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各位先進我先提一個權宜問題今天我們要省土銀還有印刷廠的預算結果今天巡打馬上就處理"},{"start":20.579,"end":42.276,"text":"過去從來沒有這個慣例 因為現在有七十幾個案子也都沒有跟委員協調 到目前只有十幾個案子有協調所以我具體的建議 今天只有詢問 不要處理然後呢 我建議我們的召委 因為為什麼他要這樣子 召委員無奈"},{"start":43.237,"end":71.013,"text":"很無奈 因為今天是最後一次他當召委了所以下個禮拜能不能夠跟另外一位召委就外匯委員跟他借一個小時的時間那是今天這樣子我們來處理我想這樣對委員比較尊重因為今天還有一整天的時間可以去讓行政部門跟我們委員還有討論否則七十幾個案子一個一個討論這個也不是個辦法"},{"start":71.753,"end":92.539,"text":"哇 你真的不行那整個案子就送到朝委協商也不是不可以過去的案例是 喔來不及了 啊來不及就往前送往前送 就不要今天這樣子今天給人家感覺很倉促啦 處理的品質很不好也不尊重立委好不好 我就提這樣的一個缺乳問題"},{"start":94.72,"end":123.099,"text":"等下我們跟賴昭偉討論如果他同意下個禮拜借我禮拜一借我大概一個小時的時間那我們現在的這個相關的提案預算案只有71個案子那71個案子如果今天不處理我想這個土銀 煙酒公司印刷廠那你們可以趕快花時間到下個禮拜一比如說9點我們來審查這個預算的時候你們還有一天多的時間可以跟各個各位委員去做溝通說不定70幾個案子溝通"},{"start":124.94,"end":140.847,"text":"完以後說不定剩下沒有多少個案子說不定委員都可以有溝通的這個說是不是不一定簡略啊說不定是凍結啊或是給大家一點時間好了等一下如果賴委員同意等一下賴委員會過來如果他同意的話我們就下個禮拜一來講對 我就說下個禮拜借一個小時時間給我們那個陳委員啊 陳昭偉啊"},{"start":148.711,"end":165.481,"text":"等一下如果賴委員同意下個禮拜給我一個小時的時間因為70幾個案子現在只有溝通了11個案子那我們還是給相關單位一點時間繼續做溝通如果可以縮減的話那到時候事實上下個禮拜也會很快的就審查完畢嘛好 這樣可以嗎可以可以 如果賴委員同意的話可以好 謝謝好 請部長"},{"start":173.863,"end":195.592,"text":"委員好部長你好我還是關心財化法昨天賴總統講話了他說要用更大的民族他講的就是要提富裕啦要提視線啦要提公統啦我請問你是不是確定財化法要提富裕是不是"},{"start":197.361,"end":206.112,"text":"委員第一個目前來說12月20號三讀通過的裁劃法目前還沒有送出立法院還在行政院那對於修正的裁劃法"},{"start":211.98,"end":227.476,"text":"那我們和主總也都在盤一些對於這個中央施政的一些影響以及我們行政團隊會以什麼樣的合憲合法的一些程序來做一些救濟的措施也都在各種措施都在評估當中是這樣子的"},{"start":228.117,"end":248.717,"text":"那你們有哪些業務要抹給地方你們一直講說錢給了 事情要給有沒有評估哪些事情給地方至於哪一些業務要做一些移轉因為支出的移轉跟業務的移轉是有相關聯的那是屬於各部會各部會的業務的部分什麼時候可以清出來"},{"start":249.718,"end":252.582,"text":"什麼時候會計出來我想這個部分行政院會跟各部會去做討論然後看哪一些業務適合做移轉那因為財政部這個部分並沒有去做實際的這個你們財政部啊到現在為止啊擺爛的地方就是你們到現在都沒有版本啊"},{"start":266.256,"end":280.321,"text":"沒有辦法討論委員 財政局並沒有擺爛也跟委員說很多次的說明財化法的修正它必須要經過充分的討論現在已經刪渡通過了講這些現在已經刪渡通過了火車火車已經開到左營了你還在講說台北怎麼開桃園怎麼開 已經開到左營了"},{"start":295.126,"end":299.728,"text":"因為委員說財政部擺爛所以我才做這個說明但我也知道目前12月20號已經通過了財化法的修正三讀通過了你們就是要叫你不要再回覆說不能接受不能接受他已經通過了不能接受什麼"},{"start":319.976,"end":332.501,"text":"你怎麼去把他推翻除了你公投把他推翻我剛剛才跟委員報告就是說有關在這個合憲合法的行程程序上大家再來討論相關的因應措施那是哪些因應措施"},{"start":333.593,"end":353.631,"text":"目前都在評估當中那您剛剛也提到了 比如說支出水桶業務的移轉的部分那當然涉及到各部會議的一些計畫的業務的部分也都在現在我們要看喔 我們也正在審114年的總預算是的 是的我們沒有耽誤你們喔"},{"start":358.109,"end":386.229,"text":"所以現在有學者 我看了一下 今天有學者點名的所以能不能大家乾脆各退一步就是啊 因為現在已經省完預算啦你們也來不及啦乾脆115年開始實施新的法 你們也不要囉嗦也不要去提視線 不要提復義大家各退一步 這樣的 有學者這樣的建議你們的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":387.574,"end":393.056,"text":"是的我們之前也很清楚的說明114年已經展開了各項的業務要往前走都要往前推展所以我們也希望我們大院能夠趕快審議完畢114年度的預算讓各項施政可以不要受到影響謝謝立法院能夠這樣幫我們一起審查這個預算那至於您提到就是說通過的這個財化法"},{"start":415.862,"end":442.807,"text":"但是由於他現在的條文是這麼寫的就是說公佈後就生效嘛就施行了就公佈日施行那是不是要怎麼樣調整我覺得當然委員您提出了這樣的一個行政院報就學者提出來我只是替你雞婆替你想一個解套方式大家這樣子否則的話火車一樣對撞這個沒完沒了到現在為止是沒完沒了的沒完沒了"},{"start":445.697,"end":457.703,"text":"你們不接受 你們現在不接受那怎麼辦咧 法律通過了你不能夠說法律通過的你不管他啊 不可以啊當然現在機關必須依法行政是一個事實你再仔細想一下啦齁這些學者的意見啦多去整理啊想一想怎麼樣火車往前開啦其實還有一招嘛你們稅計勝利拿出來補"},{"start":475.407,"end":497.683,"text":"這個3000多億就有了啊 為什麼一定不能拿出來呢 稅計剩餘啊稅計剩餘的部分 稅計剩餘的金額可能沒有那麼高照那天主計長的一個說法 稅計剩餘的金額應該是有限的對 有限的 那至於今年就這些了啦 問你喔 那個燕酒公司 董事長一起來湯董事長是嗎 是董事長 董事長"},{"start":507.134,"end":534.152,"text":"這個啊你們今年度啊營業額獲利都不達預期的目標差很多你們的員工啊績效跟年終獎金只有2.5個月部長仔細聽好 部長你們這裡面來講的話台電 中油它也業績也不行啊可是它一樣可以領4.4個月財政部你怎麼樣幫他講話經濟部"},{"start":537.25,"end":544.696,"text":"莊園台電沒有到達預定的目標一樣領4.4個月可是財政部就沒有啊底下只有領2.5個月你要不要幫燕酒公司講講話來 部長"},{"start":551.041,"end":566.927,"text":"謝謝委員對我們菸酒公司同仁的一個鼓勵那我想這個有關績效加到年終獎金怎麼計算都有一套的制度那我們認為就是說其實菸酒公司湯董事長來了以後他也非常的積極在做這個委員你不要講這些有的沒的你就跟我講你怎麼爭取的啊"},{"start":570.829,"end":594.049,"text":"因為一樣中油台電不達標但是記下獎金拿4.4個月研究公司不達標為什麼只能夠拿2.5個月你告訴我啊你怎麼辦啊部長啊台電才這麼講話啊我先這樣講台電跟中油基本它有一個公用事業性質在裡面它可能有一些比較多的一個政策性在裡面我相信是這樣子所以就是"},{"start":594.85,"end":607.574,"text":"台電中央就是政府關心的原則說是4號原則說是4號董事長講話 董事長你講話爭取一下 給你機會爭取跟委員報告我們明年還是會積極努力的替員工來爭取達標4.4個月這個是我來的目標如果達不到的你要不要下台"},{"start":620.279,"end":646.741,"text":"我們會盡全力來努力我們會盡全力來努力你應該有氣魄喔 年輕人有氣魄是打不到我下台來了喔 告訴你 留一年留一年長官看好啊今天一九公司為什麼這麼辛苦有很重要的兩大原因第一個賴清德總統當台南市長的時候他設立了捷太日菸台南廠"},{"start":648.366,"end":676.316,"text":"結果市佔率42.5%國產業只有23%這是很重的原因日本老還越來啊日本大哥哥來清德關的我站著給人家設公司要專門打我們的研究公司第二個 海尼根你們的啤酒海尼根今年四月在屏東市要變成東北亞的公戶中心"},{"start":677.785,"end":685.911,"text":"這兩個月的一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年"},{"start":705.021,"end":723.184,"text":"各位我們報告事實上這個捷太跟這個海尼根這自由化競爭本來就存在這個市場那我來單位四個多月我們的團隊都相當的優秀所以我們對於明年超過2.5個月我們還是保持很高的信心"},{"start":723.704,"end":745.665,"text":"怎麼樣增加啊 你現在都節節敗退啊業績會縮啊 業績越來越糟啊大陸市場也不可以啊大陸你現在進不去啊 兩岸關係這麼不好以前可以賣大陸 啤酒可以賣大陸現在大陸也進不去啊 你不知道要怎麼樣啦你現在開拓什麼市場 你告訴我是不是給你 催牛沒關係給你催你準備怎麼打開市場"},{"start":747.427,"end":757.141,"text":"各位我們報告因為剛剛我提的我們的員工都相當優秀你講這個聽不懂啊你能不能講說我開拓美國市場可以嗎"},{"start":758.058,"end":785.797,"text":"我們確實我們國外的市場明年會有新的訂單也都在洽在哪裡在哪裡因為現在還在保密階段可能不方便隨便亂講啊市場在哪裡天邊彩虹根本就是沒有看到你們的陰影所以台灣煙酒公司業績節節敗退這才是很悲哀的而且部長又不幫你們講話說因為我有政策目"},{"start":786.457,"end":794.109,"text":"我有政策的目標 中有台電的政策目標都可以要領4.4 你們就領不到公會要找你喔 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2525你有啊沒有拜託有啦部長加油一點好不好"},{"start":84.164,"end":102.312,"text":"委員,12月23日立法院三讀通過了裁判法,目前行政院還沒有收到立法院給行政院的...快了快了那如果收到了以後呢,你的立場會不會請行政院就不要再阻撓了嗎?"},{"start":104.188,"end":113.092,"text":"收到以後第一個就是說因為新的修正後的財化法它中央跟地方的部分因為必須釋出大概目前計算是3753億的一個金額這樣的一個金額後續會要怎麼樣的處理我們跟"},{"start":121.716,"end":139.511,"text":"行政院以及主計總署都一起在對於有關相關的一個行政救濟的一些措施都還在相關措施都在評估當中如果是卓院長問你的時候你就跟他講說去年2024年今年25年嘛已經截止了去年的稅收超徵多少錢"},{"start":141.761,"end":158.08,"text":"跟委員報告在2013年的稅收要到12月底的計算還沒有出來那只是目前推估的部分全國大概會比預算數增加4,900到5,100那中央的部分這是全國"},{"start":160.322,"end":184.519,"text":"這是全國那中央的部分大概3500到3700那這個部分其實稅收如果超過預算數的部分屬於中央統籌分配稅款的部分也都會撥下去會在今年的農曆年前就會撥給地方政府我們大概估計有350億到370億會再撥給地方政府這是第13次的撥付那另外屬於中央的拜託那個新北要多一點"},{"start":185.539,"end":208.408,"text":"那我們會按照公式計算我們會按公式計算那屬於這個13年的中央統籌分配稅款會在過今年的過年前就趕快撥給撥給各地方政府那屬於中央的部分第一個我們也已經增加還債了你剛剛算的那個數字喔大家心裡就喘了一口氣啊之前有些委員可能不明事理啊"},{"start":209.108,"end":222.841,"text":"講到三千七百億就說就是什麼?會什麼?迴線亂陣講到三千七百多少億就說國家可能所有事情會停滯然後所有行政部門會shut down所有東西就會倒掉講得危言聳聽所以這個數字會講話嘛"},{"start":227.205,"end":238.858,"text":"一出來馬上就把它扒下去對不對稅收超徵快五千億委員這不是這樣因為全國的部分有是屬於地方的部分本來就屬於地方的那另外屬於交通部分我們還會再播下屬於地方"},{"start":242.342,"end":258.613,"text":"中央總統分類上我們也會再撥下去那至於中央超過預算數的部分當然第一個我們就會不去舉債也就是今年原來預算數要舉債的部分1571億就沒有做舉債那另外一部分我們也要還債因為這是預算書上規定的要還債我們總共還了1358億這要還現在的國債中上面是修多少國債中是25點"},{"start":272.094,"end":274.356,"text":"所以25.2這個數字也還好啊"},{"start":282.589,"end":304.527,"text":"當然我們對於財務的控管我們必須要很嚴謹因為依照公債法有規定的而且我知道部長你也知道全世界那麼多的國家當中你如果比較美國的負債或者是其他日本的負債各國的負債我們的財務狀況是屬於優等班呢還是我們的負債情況很嚴重"},{"start":311.152,"end":329.752,"text":"其實我們中華民國在這個有關債務的控管其實我們是優等班因為跟G20 20個國家比其實我們只比俄羅斯跟沙烏地阿拉伯土耳其高我們其實是相當低的我們大概就是百分之30點多占GDP的比例所以大家可以理解"},{"start":330.433,"end":346.285,"text":"我們國家的負債情況是優秀的所以拜託不要再用說國家會破產什麼我們從來沒有說國家會破產不是不是不是不是國家會破產而是因為這3700多億的部分市權沒有調整的時候怎麼樣拖出來就有一些"},{"start":350.988,"end":368.869,"text":"不理解的委員有的是剛剛來才第一次來然後就信口開河這個少了3700億國家會倒會垮事實上是不會的所以就不要以訛傳訛我們要就事論事另外今天講到其他的單位土銀土銀的表現"},{"start":372.632,"end":390.837,"text":"事實上感覺就是穩穩的也做得不錯可是你給何董事長還有張總經理的薪水我算了一下跟其他38間的本土銀行來比他大概是領到的錢是敬培莫作"},{"start":392.298,"end":417.91,"text":"那部長你說這些表現當中那有哪一個人的薪水領得比他少的38家銀行就董事長來說好了我跟委員報告國營事業的董事長總經理負責任他們的薪資事實上是有一定的規定的不是我來確定的麻煩你往你的左後方邊稍微看一下是"},{"start":418.951,"end":434.928,"text":"你給他一點怪的眼神嘛據我所知說公股銀行特別是公股銀行百分之百的大家很多都是萌生趣意你講董事長好不好他一個月領多少薪水"},{"start":436.631,"end":459.086,"text":"總長薪水我也不方便在這邊講,我想說他屬於他個人的有沒有10萬塊?這個部分屬於他個人的,當然10萬塊是有啦那有沒有20萬?20萬?我不知道欸,應該是沒有吧你看各位親愛的全國同胞,擔任一個銀行那麼大規模我們再來講,圖銀的整個資產規模有多少?"},{"start":466.024,"end":478.968,"text":"管一個三兆多資產的規模結果薪資是領不到18萬為什麼不繼續學習新加坡以貢養年因為我不是只有講董事長因為土銀的員工有多少人8000多人吧"},{"start":494.574,"end":516.325,"text":"五千七百多台銀的員工有多少七千多這些所有每天認真在工作苦幹認真幹然後弄半天追求人生最大的目標就是董事長的十八萬的薪資我的天哪"},{"start":518.153,"end":523.937,"text":"幾萬個人他終身窮極一生的目標就是董事長最高位階18萬"},{"start":528.377,"end":538.501,"text":"委員這是因為有相關法規的關係那也跟委員報告除了董事長之外就是論事其他員工的薪資已經跟公務員的條薪脫鉤了本席在這裡已經為幾萬個員工的未來在這裡我們努力來討論有沒有成長改善的空間"},{"start":549.705,"end":577.341,"text":"每一年就是一年又一年下一次來還是同樣的答案我覺得這個對不起這幾萬個辛苦的工作同仁工作同仁的薪資已經跟公務員脫鉤了就是還有條薪那當然委員也非常重視我們國營事業的員工謝謝委員我相信對於我們同仁的待遇跟福利的重視那我們也會來做相關的另外一個因為還有煙酒公司"},{"start":578.402,"end":595.853,"text":"那董事長是?湯董事長湯祈安湯以前的酒是黃湯希望黃湯下肚期待你的事業會平安叫湯祈安"},{"start":598.137,"end":608.985,"text":"那你一直所有的面對外在壓力節節下退要思考一個好的方法譬如說有沒有聽過茅台貴州茅台吧"},{"start":610.728,"end":627.07,"text":"他有上市吧,上市以後發展的不斷的成長,整個市值各方面可以說是很成功啦我希望部長也可以思考一下,怎麼樣來帶領"},{"start":628.992,"end":646.25,"text":"煙酒公司可以好好的發揮不然每年在這邊看的業績都是節節敗退但是跟民生相關的紅標米酒的問題還有一些紹興酒料理用酒的問題今年度會不會漲價煙價會不會調高"},{"start":650.41,"end":670.288,"text":"各位委員報告我們民生用品的米酒類今年跟明年都不會漲價那菸品的部分呢我們今年主打的會是以高價位的菸品然後打中價位我們設定的是90到95塊的香菸100塊以上的香菸我們未來今年度不會考慮紹興紅露會不會調高售價"},{"start":677.165,"end":681.045,"text":"我們會調整產品但是調整售價可能需要再評估"},{"start":682.947,"end":709.178,"text":"拜託不要調,因為本席來自新店、聖坑、石碇、坪林、烏來你去查一下,坪林喝最多的就是紅綠酒因為農民他們查明回來都是需要讓身體可以去濕除寒所以拜託不要調高,調高大家生活都很難過請注意一下這個問題,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158646","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158646","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e544593598dd9095661ad867d1dd5d1dbf6a11e77586d9faf32f3f07a615f4351a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:28:32 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對吧對外銷收入的目標從106年大概9億到110年訂到12億這些狀況都是你的目標值可是你實際外銷的實際收入從9億一直當當當當到現在3億這個不再是"},{"start":163.424,"end":189.87,"text":"台湾人抽烟习惯的问题了吧那你为什么外销的收入标可以从9亿到12亿实际上只收到3亿多呢而且达成率大概就是三成左右那每年今年又变了9亿多你明年打算收多少官委员报告最主要过去我们60%的外销是从中国啦都是中国中国不让你进去了是吗"},{"start":191.656,"end":216.861,"text":"所以那你每年還定9億幹嘛呢你每年定9億然後又說我的你看你從哪一年開始就只有3億了109年109年你定了12億實際收入3億你第二年還是定12億收入4億到現在定9億收入去年也只有3億那你明年還要編9億多的預算我們是不是直接把你砍掉比較快董事長"},{"start":219.656,"end":244.693,"text":"如果沒有辦法做到就不用編這種虛的預算啦這個預算收入現在編9億是怎樣打算明年再來告訴我執行率只有30%你要怎麼樣你是這個公司的董事長你對這樣的預算編列還有接下去的營收目標有什麼想法還是每年就這樣編空的編假的每年執行率只有30%那就不要拿到立法院來你怎麼說勒"},{"start":248.051,"end":251.297,"text":"各位委員報告這個預算其實我還沒有亂編的誰編的 編的亂七八糟"},{"start":256.124,"end":278.959,"text":"每年實際收入已經好多年了已經從108年執行率不到4成6接下來到去年只有3成4還有一年只有29%然後每年還是照編9億多我希望董事長今天的質詢結束你們到預算第二輪協商的時候我相信等一下會審預算吧自己要不要先自己砍一砍"},{"start":282.286,"end":303.582,"text":"我們會跟同仁討論數字再跟委員報告這個預算書根本就不該送出來這個預算書送出來就是一個可笑的事情我們希望你賺錢但也不希望你賺太多錢但是你至少自己不要騙自己啊好第二個你說已經因為中國市場的問題中國是什麼時候開始不讓台酒公司進去的"},{"start":306.209,"end":317.942,"text":"中國大陸什麼時候讓你不再進去了我告訴你好了111年現在113年這兩年你們做了什麼努力嗎還是他就不給你進去當時是說補件的問題你們有補件嗎111年開始我們"},{"start":322.467,"end":350.4,"text":"你們公務員報告還是你什麼都不知道那我怎麼問下去呢我們有補件啦但是因為那個在華註冊編號應該是沒有通過反正就是沒有辦法進去那我現在就問了好中國市場我看到你們資料是跌了87%所以你9億只能收到3億我也不怪你問題是你其他的市場呢其他的市場我們有努力去做嗎中國有一個代理的經銷商"},{"start":351.5,"end":373.732,"text":"歐洲有 美國有 日本有 韓國有這些都有但是我們現在的對外的銷售方式你跟我說法只有四種一個是透過經銷商第二透過市銷商第三透過自由報售第四委制代工所以我們的經銷商你看到我們不是有新南向政策嗎為什麼新南向只有新加坡"},{"start":375.182,"end":404.307,"text":"我們在其他的國家有沒有任何要去跟人家的國家找到經銷商去行銷你的台灣煙酒呢各位我們報告其他的國家沒有辦法進去是因為我們的品項的成本變高所以我們在今年度我們也會開始開發一些比較低單價的產品進入南向國家所以新南向到現在為止沒有是你要開始開發是所以你要努力開發要多久才會有成果不知道"},{"start":405.762,"end":426.107,"text":"你要開始開發,你要成果3.5年以後了,是嗎?第二個部分,試銷商,我看到你們給我的訊息是說你們有跟韓國還有一個俄羅斯簽試銷合約的NMO用但是董事長知道嗎?因為現在烏俄戰鬥關係,所以美國發布了禁制令"},{"start":428.007,"end":452.936,"text":"禁止高級的酒類銷售給俄羅斯然後我們看到台灣煙酒公司去跟俄羅斯簽了一個市銷合約這不是很奇怪嗎你們要跟你們要反其道而行全世界都不賣酒給俄羅斯我們要去跟俄羅斯合作有這樣的事嗎你知道嗎不知道有沒有人要給他打pass啊主席這樣我問不下去啊"},{"start":454.696,"end":471.928,"text":"你知道嗎 還是不知道是旁邊那個總經理知道嗎黃珊珊委員所提出的這個就是美國跟俄羅斯這件事你們自己給我的回答 我的題目都已經早就洩題了總經理 曾總市銷商是開發市場的 我們先試看看市銷商"},{"start":477.802,"end":491.85,"text":"各位委員報告,事實上現在整個歐洲地區的威士忌是很低迷所以其實我們還是會以穆斯林的市場為主,剛剛沒有特別提我只問你為什麼跟俄羅斯簽市銷合約?"},{"start":493.671,"end":521.666,"text":"這個部分我可能還要回去跟同仁了解你跟全世界走相反的路就對了問清楚我希望你去我剛講我希望你去賺錢又不希望你賺太多錢但是既然國內我們不要國內的國人一直喝酒一直抽菸所以我們希望說你到外銷去跟其他的國家一樣把台灣菸酒公司的好的產品行銷到全世界所以你應該去拓展我剛講你的營收不應該建立在台灣人健康的"},{"start":522.626,"end":551.318,"text":"破壞上面所以希望你能夠拓展其他的市場而不是單單的只在國內市場如果你一年有五六百億的營收外銷只有三億台酒公司要檢討啊拓走你不到你的零頭啊全部都是台灣人在買單啊我現在又問你外銷的東西沒有任何計畫只有三億的收入那真的不要幹啊你們現在還有一個部門專門在做這件事不是嗎"},{"start":552.714,"end":564.222,"text":"所以一個新南向提出幾個計畫如果董事長上任有這個雄心壯志很好提計畫給我第二個還有說曾經在107年說要去越南設廠購買跟當地代工還有這樣的計畫嗎"},{"start":568.531,"end":596.288,"text":"目前沒有目前也沒有了所以對外的拓展我希望您上任後在一個月之內把未來對外銷的拓展計畫提出一個完整的想法包括新南向包括你去簽市銷拜託一下了解一下全世界的狀況不要去跟世界走不一樣的路全世界在抵制俄羅斯我們還去跑去跟俄羅斯做這個奇怪的生意很奇怪啦那最重要的是我希望"},{"start":597.54,"end":616.733,"text":"部長您站在旁邊我再問最後一個問題現在中國大陸的低價的啤酒掛著不同的品牌傾銷到台灣來掛著日系麒麟啤酒掛著美系百威啤酒的名義Made in China的東西現在不斷的在侵蝕我們台灣的市場"},{"start":617.634,"end":628.202,"text":"第二個,台灣煙酒公司也跟我們相關的國內的優質廠商成立了所謂的釀酒商協會,我想問一下,你們什麼時候要向經濟部去申請反請銷調查?他們目前來說,釀酒商協會已經把申請案送到財政部,這個部分我們會盡事處理"},{"start":635.967,"end":662.587,"text":"因為我們有一個審議小組會的也會去跟經濟部做市場調查等等因為這個會影響到我們台酒公司的營收影響到我們國人這些公平的競爭那最重要的是如果台灣民眾搞不清楚還以為那是日系以為那是美系這對還有消費者欺騙的問題好嗎好 是的我希望在今年的過年前有個初步的結果過年後你一定要把東西送到經濟部可以嗎"},{"start":664.308,"end":687.598,"text":"我們有一個審議小組會來做這個處理我們申請進來一個月就會處理已經是現在進行式,台酒公司是裡面最大的一家台酒公司不領頭羊,這些台灣人要喝到好的精釀的啤酒好高品質的啤酒,而不是品消的啤酒,好嗎?是的,是的請部長列一個時程表"},{"start":688.678,"end":693.988,"text":"好 謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝黃珊珊委員 謝謝接著我們請羅賓才委員"}]}},{"id":"158642","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158642","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e55ded9f9e11f8c9d71ad867d1dd5d1dbf6a11e77586d9faf35a549a2cf34375e35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"12:18:01 - 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那一天事實上是臨時"},{"start":32.859,"end":59.569,"text":"要表決前幾分鐘才拿出來的修正案那就通過了所以通過之後各地各縣市地方都引起非常大的反彈那是不是因為這樣所以現在有一些討論那我現在還要提醒你不是只有收的部分的垂直分配跟水平分配的問題支的部分全責如何劃分也完全沒有"},{"start":60.728,"end":85.726,"text":"那這個全責任何劃分喔也不是你財政部一個部可以決定的收的部分大概跟縣市政府談這些如何分配的公式你們之前有去做了兩三次基本上把那些公式的指標已經縮減到剩下二十幾項嘛那一部分當然是需要繼續進行那支的部分"},{"start":86.974,"end":99.725,"text":"如何建立行政院也要召集地方政府跟中央政府大家一起來談如何來分配這樣子才有辦法完整的去調整整個財政收支劃分法"},{"start":101.364,"end":124.276,"text":"所以我覺得這個工作非常的艱鉅啊那應該不要停頓要趕快進行在資的部分應該趕快建議行政院也要召集各地方政府那當然收的部分水平分配的部分跟垂直分配的部分你們是有很重要的參與比例但資的部分恐怕要更高層級才有辦法處理你認不認同啊"},{"start":125.196,"end":139.859,"text":"委員說得很細第一個就是資的部分因為中央垂直分配的部分涉及到中央跟地方的市權的劃分你要有市權的劃分清楚才有資對不對錢是跟著市權走的所以這一次因為完全沒有討論到市權那市權又涉及到各部會的業務執掌去怎麼樣做明確的劃分所以這個部分院裡面會要統籌來做這個跟各部會來做討論我舉一個例子"},{"start":155.16,"end":178.173,"text":"現在在討論那個說多少所得稅比例以下的老人他的健保費要由中央政府出還是地方政府出還是有沒有要統一這個如果大家能夠把事選談好是併在一起處理的不然的話現在他們真是在實質的剝奪行政機關的財政權"},{"start":182.639,"end":210.092,"text":"因為其實行政權主要兩大核心就是人事跟經費那他用一再的用法律案綁這一些費用的支出其實就是實質在剝奪你行政機關的權利這個我認為是違反憲法權利分立的原則我個人認為還蠻明確的啦那只是他不是用預算案他現在是用法律案的方式來綁這個以後"},{"start":213.26,"end":228.545,"text":"除非我們的憲法制度改變不然以後沒有人有辦法執政了他是把外國內閣制國會所有的權利拿到台灣要來用那台灣不是內閣制國家啊照理來講如果你合理"},{"start":230.287,"end":252.867,"text":"可以討論真的大家都想要走內閣制國家的話要從憲法的修正開始結果他不尋此道他要用他國衛多數的權力就去搶奪我跟你講這樣子是沒完沒了因為如果可以這樣的話那我以後等到執政黨 多數黨的時候我也可以去搶奪地方政府的財政我也可以去搶奪他的權力"},{"start":254.144,"end":266.842,"text":"那整個台灣的這個憲政制度全部都亂了套這是我們最憂心的所以我覺得還是要去進行好 那我要另外請土銀的何董事長請何董事長"},{"start":274.885,"end":285.777,"text":"剛剛的對話我有聽到但是你土地銀行作為一個過去被標榜為不動產融資的專業銀行這是你們土銀以前最大的定位"},{"start":287.128,"end":309.684,"text":"好那現在央行因為他的政策所以做了一些限縮那對你們跟其他的銀行沒有差別待遇嗎目前主管機關對我們在土建融跟房貸他單獨另外有設定了一個限制的比率使得我們跟其他商業銀行的那個差別越來越小比較不再像完全"},{"start":310.805,"end":336.07,"text":"所以我覺得你應該也要把這個狀況反映出來啊當初土地銀行設立的目的是什麼那政策當然要推動大家是要一體比較合理但是你們也要有你們自己的空間啊不然不是說隨波逐流啊上面怎麼規定我就怎麼做那以後如果都不能帶的時候假設要政策再進一步限縮那你土地銀行平常沒有做其他業務的時候怎麼辦"},{"start":337.833,"end":354.966,"text":"是 那跟委員報告是說目前只要是政策性的我們都全部在配合我知道 所以我的意思說當這個政策下來的時候你們要以你們主體的立場跟他溝通可不可以有部分的差別待遇因為每一個營養設立的基礎不一樣啊是"},{"start":355.626,"end":366.972,"text":"你是以不動產的融資作為起身所以你才叫做土地銀行嘛那如果不動產投資你都不能做了那你還土地銀行幹嘛那土地銀行就改成商業銀行啊"},{"start":369.315,"end":396.167,"text":"我講的是這個意思我不是說你現在錯了我是說如果政策是這樣的時候你應該跟他溝通說應該要容許你有一部分的空間跟他們不一樣是 我們會跟金管會再來討論這個部分的空間不是啦 這個對你做這個限制的是央行嘛怎麼會是金管會沒有 對我們現在的限制是金管會他是配合央行的政策嘛對不對他已經限制了兩年了是好 那請回座喔是請那個菸酒公司的當董事長"},{"start":399.54,"end":426.909,"text":"請湯董部長你可以先請回座啦謝謝委員好加熱菸的那個送了沒 送去省了沒各位委員報告我們113年1月就已經申請了7款那陸陸續續3、4次的這個資料補正我們在12月為什麼你們資料這麼差要補這麼多次你們送的資料一開始都沒有好好準備嗎是怎麼樣還是他們用這個理由在拖延"},{"start":429.395,"end":454.952,"text":"跟委員報告 事實上那個資料因為真的是國建署要的資料相當的細所以員工也來來回回修改了很多次啦那國建署一再講錯話就馬上就要過馬上就一年多了耶這個法律是112年通過的一年因為加熱菸不能夠合法已經漏掉 不要講你們公司的損失光稅就漏掉幾十億啦"},{"start":457.522,"end":471.638,"text":"另外就是說你有沒有預算說假設今年譬如說再過兩個月通過之後你加熱菸的這一方面的生產能夠對於你的這個公司可以創造怎麼樣的利潤空間有沒有準備"},{"start":472.779,"end":496.828,"text":"公務員報告 從112年這個煙害防治法展開以後到上個月 煙酒公司已經下滑了45%的香煙所以未來如果兩個月這個加熱煙如果能通過我們的豐原煙廠應該兩到三個月就可以馬上量產可以把過去損失的這個下滑的營業額應該可以補回一半以上"},{"start":497.688,"end":525.867,"text":"那這樣子你有沒有心裡有沒有一個打算這樣大概可以補多少回來應該四五十億跑不掉是啊所以你剛剛大家在問你說為什麼你的業績一直下滑的時候你這部分也應該要出來跟他們說明事實上現在市面上吸加熱菸的人比例越來越高啊因為加熱菸沒有泥骨丁嘛沒有焦油嘛只有泥骨丁嘛所以對健康也比較好對於不吸菸的人也比較好"},{"start":527.332,"end":538.713,"text":"那這個邏輯很奇怪啊 止煙捲煙都在准結果加熱煙到現在要省這麼久他怎麼不把止煙再拿回去省省看啊如果照他的標準這樣止煙會過嗎"},{"start":541.432,"end":563.661,"text":"齁 我跟你說因為加熱菸比較沒有二手菸的問題我看到很多人 那我是不抽菸啦很多人 連我們的同仁很多都在抽 都在抽加熱菸雖然沒有過 大家都在抽啦啊就是眼睛蒙住不趕快去進行我要請莊部長再上台一下莊部長"},{"start":566.533,"end":595.11,"text":"部長這個事情我在這邊質詢已經問過好多次了我請你要跟國健署要跟衛福部講有我們都有去跟他做說明你有沒有一年這樣漏掉多少稅跟他講跟行政院講然後這個東西要審這麼久到底要審多久啊法律通過一年多了今年不是剛通過三個月五個月本來講說一開始的時候問他說你這個要審多久可以過說大概半年"},{"start":596.663,"end":616.617,"text":"過去多久了已經過去14個月15個月了拜託你就理論上面就你的稅的角度來講就你的研究工資來講你都應該大聲疾呼啦都應該跟外部講說你這樣子太離譜了加油好不好謝謝謝謝吳秉瑞委員接著我們請黃珊珊委員"}]}},{"id":"158654","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158654","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5d2b755d9c28829d51ad867d1dd5d1dbfc298e4a85a6a9cd534c2034a5d6bfafb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:52:22 - 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總統好 那個您有專心聽昨天這個賴總統的這個原告的這個講話嗎 元旦的講話嗎有的聽到他說新的一年會繼續推動福國利民的政策但是中央需要足夠的財源來進行各項措施因此我 就是賴總統期待財化法的修法朝野政黨能夠就各自的版本冷靜再思考為國家尋求長治久安之道 對吧這是他的原文"},{"start":46.784,"end":55.941,"text":"像您這邊列出來是對的這個朝野政黨人就各自的版本你們的版本在哪裡"},{"start":58.592,"end":67.942,"text":"財政部對於財化法的修法一直也都努力第一個我們就指標的部分除了三個指標以外有共識我問的是版本已經收斂到三個財政部是七上滿下嗎"},{"start":77.832,"end":92.584,"text":"外總統不知道沒有版本嗎第一個 除了指標之外還有權重跟調整係數都不用講理由 我們講答案這理由我也聽一百遍我說版本欸 總統不知道沒有版本嗎還是你們跟他講有版本"},{"start":93.804,"end":110.589,"text":"我們所有的一個進度都會跟院方報告有沒有財政部的版本到現在我們都在進行當中有沒有提出來沒有討論完怎麼會有版本當然是要有討論有一個跟各地方政府討論有共識有沒有行政院的版本"},{"start":111.636,"end":139.7,"text":"我跟委員報告我已經講過很多遍就是說我們要做一個討論所以你們還沒有討論結束嗎我們還沒有版本嗎那如果還沒有版本戴總統這樣子講是因為他被你們欺瞞以為有版本嗎我們不可能欺瞞你們沒有欺騙他所以你說他說謊他不知道我沒有說他不知道啊那他為什麼說朝野各自的版本我到現在看不懂這句話不知道是你們的錯還是他的錯也就是說"},{"start":140.1,"end":165.991,"text":"草野各自可以就忍心思考然後就各自版本來做討論所以你是不是要趕快照賴總統的意思趕快提出版本啊我覺得版本這件事情都要經過完善的討論所以你要做完整的規劃我知道總統都已經說要照草野版本因為趕快的話如果草代也不是一個好的規劃個一二十年但賴總統都已經說趕快提出來他已經這樣講了你們還這樣拖拖拉拉不尊重總統喔"},{"start":167.031,"end":186.326,"text":"沒有不尊重總統那總統都已經心之下指導期了所以你什麼時候要提出版本啊總統說朝野版本要討論啊什麼時候第一個現在12月20號立法院三讀通過你們的不要關心立法院的版本關心你們的版本都還沒有送到行政院都還沒有送到行政院你們的啦你們的版本啦我跟委員報告"},{"start":187.467,"end":207.158,"text":"好 那沒關係 我不為難你來 你不敢壓日期只要總統說明天拿出版本 明天版本就會出現我也不為難你啦 這個也已經上升到行政院也許也不是一個財政部長可以決定的啦如果總統說下個禮拜版本就拿出來討論 下禮拜版本就會生出來我相信就會是這樣子不過沒關係 我想請教你 剛剛"},{"start":208.158,"end":223.954,"text":"很多人也有提到這三千七百五十三億的問題我剛也聽到您回答文財委員說這個超徵的這個中央的部分三千多億三千七百億的話三百七十億就會直接撥給地方嘛所以還剩三千四百多億嘛所以事實上"},{"start":225.228,"end":248.157,"text":"事實上三千七百多億還有三千四百多億就算明年實施 更何況我們還沒有實施明年實施也沒有問題啊把這錢撥給地方也沒有問題啊這個因應這個財化修正後三七五三億哪裡會有什麼各個部會這邊恐嚇百姓的這種說這個不夠那個不夠明明財政部表現這麼好一年就超徵了五千億 對吧其中中央有三千多億"},{"start":249.017,"end":269.883,"text":"對不對不是這樣子不是這樣子算第一個我們剛剛講的是113年度的稅客收入113年的稅客收入我們對於稅客收入部分我們原來預算數有籌編了多少到中央統計所分配稅客我們已經12個月分配下去了我知道那如果超過原來預算數的部分屬於地方的部分我們也會撥下去對300多億我們一定會撥下去嘛那是113年的部分那您剛剛講的部分又涉及到114年114年預算已經編了嘛"},{"start":277.945,"end":280.591,"text":"所以他的稅額收入改變稅額收入已經編了也不從編預算我們也討論過了也編了所以內政部什麼衛福部各個預算其實都不會改變對不對"},{"start":289.281,"end":305.631,"text":"已經編了嘛 也審差不多了嘛已經編了 所以中央要相關的施政就沒有從編的問題嘛它的相關稅數也已經都已經列入了嘛好 那是這樣的情況所以其他各部會都說謊 只有財政部長講的是實話怎麼這個會少 那個會減 都已經編了啊不是 那就要看"},{"start":312.376,"end":336.214,"text":"12月20通過的財化法三讀通過以後什麼時候實施生效呢那這個時候要依法聽證的話就你意思是說生效的話可能再重編嗎不是重編那必須要依照它這個法律的規定看要怎麼實施還有可能重編嗎也跟委員報告那還有可能重編嗎行政救濟措施結束這些都過了請問這些措施都結束以後那會重編嗎如果那些措施都已經用盡了以後會重編嗎"},{"start":341.664,"end":348.048,"text":"不是已經編了就不會重編了嗎所以還是不會改變嗎我想請問來部長我也不為難您啦因為這個都在讓你回答你沒有辦法回答的問題我們來問一下圖雲來這個圖雲這個我看你們的那個建築的部分"},{"start":359.694,"end":381.869,"text":"就是金門的部分有三棟建築金門的土營有三棟建築是軍方蓋的民國五十五年蓋的已經屋齡有五十六年五十一年了五十幾年了就危老了很老而且危險那現在你們又要跟金城分行你們的兩個分行要合併那我看你們那個建築改良預算的情形很差那金門的分行改建什麼時候排上計畫"},{"start":383.13,"end":408.98,"text":"跟委員報告是主要是會延後是本來金門分廊是要採都更然後那個金門縣政府說他沒有還沒有目前沒有適應細則沒有辦法去做都更所以叫我們又回來做改成危老那我們申請危老的時候因為他又要我們做古蹟的文化資產的建立因為地下有坑道對然後文化資產建立以後要微波外部的檢核了是所以現在進度"},{"start":410.46,"end":430.996,"text":"變成告訴他說現在整個進度已經進行準備在做地質的探勘大概什麼時候開始有下一步呢?最快的話應該是在今年中建築師圖案送到那個縣政府那個做檢核可以的方式大概明年就有可能了這個進度要抓上喔 謝謝那我們時間停一下我們請這個台九 湯董事長"},{"start":440.464,"end":467.497,"text":"時間沒有站起來董事長剛剛有委員提到你們跟那個大陸申請這個在華註冊碼的問題就是台灣啤酒的問題我們當初金門高粱跟你們一樣就被那個暫停暫停進入中國大陸那我們後來我們去爭取不是說爭取我們有去有送件再重新送件但是我知道的是不是如你所說的是那個你們是根本沒有再去送了吧"},{"start":468.564,"end":496.615,"text":"你們根本沒有再去重送了吧現在事實上很多單位還是繼續在送呢各位委員報告目前有民間的業者主動要幫我們送這個文件因為他們跟中國那邊的關係好像是比較友好你們當初沒有送對不對不然以後當初你們沒有送對不對你們就停下來沒送因為我問了你們說那個營業額很低有送件喔有送件有送件嗎有送件有收到退補件嗎"},{"start":500.18,"end":504.439,"text":"他就是不明原因所以沒有通過不明原因 沒有推薦 沒有補薦嗎"},{"start":507.158,"end":530.92,"text":"有補件 有補件但是沒有通過啦那現在你們打算再重新送就對了 是不是是 我們也可以跟透過委員來協助幫我們申請這樣子可能學習金門高粱的方式就比較容易申請到這個我們會協助啦如果你們 因為之前知道是你們你們不打算送好像說這個營業額太低了 好像才五千萬一年才五千萬的營業額在啤酒的部分嘛"},{"start":531.581,"end":537.574,"text":"呃 不只啦 不只五千萬還另外請教齁 你們的這一個 這個 這個推廣費的預算怎麼編這麼高啊"},{"start":541.369,"end":564.695,"text":"各位我們報告我們推廣費的預算是以我們的營業額立法院預算的營業額我們是以600多億編列2.6%下去2.6%喔2.6%你賣的比金門高粱酒好嗎如果單一產品的話我們的啤酒賣的比金門高粱好啤酒賣的比金門高粱好你們的毛利是多少呢啤酒毛利應該還有"},{"start":570.38,"end":582.173,"text":"大概在20%上下所以他的利率毛利也是比金門高粱差那你的推廣會是怎麼變得比金門高粱還高委員報告我剛剛提了我們預算還是看營業"},{"start":583.454,"end":585.556,"text":"金酒是單一產品,我們公司的品效效能"},{"start":604.756,"end":630.926,"text":"像菸的話是代製而已嗎菸的部分我們自己生產我知道有人生產我知道有的是你幫我跟我們報告因為金酒還有一個特殊狀況它是經銷制所以跟菸酒公司還是不太一樣所以因為經銷制所以我們的這個比較省就對了我們的推廣費比較省就對了是的沒錯然後你們的利率又比較差那你們是不是要考慮改變制度如果這樣子金酒制度看起來是一個比較好的制度如果這樣子的話我們會進行評估"},{"start":633.647,"end":657.997,"text":"我覺得這個台酒公司的這個照理來看整個經營當然我也沒有希望台酒的高粱賣得很好反正賣得不好沒關係比金門高粱差是沒有關係但是我覺得整體來講你們的這個利潤實在是就是收益實在是太低了這個一個這麼大的公司編這麼高的這個推廣費但整體的收益這麼低事實上如果這是在金門縣的話如果這是金門縣會早就會被K死"},{"start":658.257,"end":682.267,"text":"我跟委員報告我們的預算裡面有接近大概2.6%裡面大概有接近1%多是香菸的菸價費因為可能金酒沒有做香菸香菸的菸價費每一年上架就要給1%多我們一年的香菸的菸價費高達7億以上這一塊就是說跟行銷沒有關你要上它的價就是要繳這麼多的"},{"start":683.228,"end":692.045,"text":"好 那你的意思就是說你們只有1.6%啦是不是 如果扣掉那個差不多那反而是我們金酒編太多了那我們回去請金酒監討好 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死越多工人你借他越多所以ESG你們根本不當一回事啊董事長我知道你可能上來沒多久啦我相信總部長派任你來也一定是希望你能整頓整頓可能有一些問題是你的前任啦他現在也離開這裡了我不曉得是不是他搞的啦但是"},{"start":546.109,"end":574.849,"text":"我剛剛跟你說的那幾個情況第一點那幾個情況你回去查你做一個報告給我就是說預期18個月的空地貸款你要如何去收回別的銀行有 也有可是他佔他們總貸款的乘數人家1%你呀1151 你佔了5%之多 我不要求你0"},{"start":576.297,"end":594.068,"text":"我要求你 你至少跟人家其他商業銀行一樣嘛好不好這樣就很浪費了你知道嗎各位報告 你這幾次對我們的指示我們都按照在做所以我們的已經這一年來我們已經收回了將近900億收回900億 收回200億嘛"},{"start":598.05,"end":605.635,"text":"沒有那是到上次的時候他每一個月大概雙維200億現在數字數字剩下266億到12月的時候只剩下266億因為過去在"},{"start":615.382,"end":633.034,"text":"那個委員在講的時候剛好是缺工缺料那時候最嚴重的時候那去年一整年缺工缺料已經減少了以後他們就開始都動工了所以動工了以後使得沒有動工的案件減少的非常的快所以已到12月的話我想我們還當然266億比同業可能還高一點我們還會繼續按照那個委員的指示繼續去改善我想我們可以降到跟同業相當的比率"},{"start":647.884,"end":671.24,"text":"第二點就是這個太坤這個炸彈這個嚴重的炸彈案不管法律檢調法院怎麼判但是我們行李土地我們要有態度我們的行政調查我們的行政處分這一定要態度拿出來可不可以而且嚴追他的"},{"start":672.479,"end":694.632,"text":"這個抵押物,抵押品,好不好?這一個案子在銀行裡面,這棟都已經都蓋好了而且地主跟那個買的房子的人都已經做分戶了只是還有一部分的漁物還沒賣完,連帶還有一部分的金額剩下來並不是現在的當時的78億,這個在新莊已經整個都蓋好了鋼骨結構的大樓也都蓋好了"},{"start":697.642,"end":726.099,"text":"那也都把 但是銷售的其他部分嗎那它等於沒辦法分屋貸款你有做嗎 你也做沒辦法你大概做一半吧因為這個是一個連貸啦所以分給每一家銀行都會去做所以我們也做了一部分的房貸那剩下的部分他還沒賣的以後還會繼續做這是連貸的部分 你統計一下你土銀是主導銀行嘛你連貸銀行裡面也是主辦銀行"},{"start":726.98,"end":754.861,"text":"第一個主辦銀行本來就要負最大的責任評估的責任第二點你要去計算你貸款給他的就關於分屋貸款的是多少分屋貸款才放心嘛銀行才放心嘛我說你本來的建築融資本來的土地融資那個就是對舊的建商嘛因為他所有轉成分屋貸款蓋好的房子全部都設定在土地銀行所以擔保是十足的是"},{"start":755.641,"end":767.055,"text":"擔保失足最後一個問題就是新復發我們會注意 12個工地 你去看一看那個棲產的情況我們會注意 謝謝委員的指示"}]}},{"id":"158631","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158631","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e50f08364b581ed6c11ad867d1dd5d1dbf671cb7f8abfc27ff7307c4a423e313cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"11:33:24 - 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特別需要就是必要的時候啊可以不可以能不能考量這個部分還是要跟組總那邊要做討論要跟組計總處組總那邊喔 當然啊這就要跟組總那邊啊你們財主單位要去思考這個問題啊財發法這一條可以讓他們動用 但不排除嘛對不對是 一定要跟組總那邊要討論因為是資源的配置 必要的時候不排除嘛可是依法行政嘛 不是嗎"},{"start":108.49,"end":134.449,"text":"然後另外一個部分有關小店家的部分就營業稅過往營業稅的課徵成本都是中央在負擔嘛對不對沒有錯沒有錯嘛而且不但是中央負擔還夠人玩嘛尤其是針對小店家的部分問題最大小店家有兩個門檻一個是起徵點這次你們有調整調整了25%但是呢免營業稅統一發票的部分20萬依然是20萬"},{"start":136.01,"end":156.441,"text":"好幾十年來都沒有變這本席給你停過好幾次了趁這次財法法的時候營業稅已經下放給地方百分之百你又不是你在用而且基本上你課徵成本又在你身上中央政府又顧人願這一條我建議你好好思考一下因為為什麼從你這次來算的話你的稅差損挑25%大概10億只佔了所有營業稅6700億當中的0.16%而已"},{"start":161.224,"end":171.268,"text":"你把起徵點兩項都提高到20萬這是本席對你的要求這樣子也不過是0.35%這樣的情況底下稅差損得不過是23億那53萬加 53萬加對啊 就是受惠的對象很多啊"},{"start":179.793,"end":194.48,"text":"部長而且你們當初只有算CPIO你如果算基本工資的部分啊是高達80%欸這十幾年來欸你們當初沒有算到基本工資啊所以我跟喊不啷噹跟你算了一下齁你會不會檢證立民齁"},{"start":195.64,"end":217.332,"text":"最後117年的74期接下來44%這種情況底下齁你省下了三分之一的能力去抓這些小的稅損的不過是23億而已你不如節省這31億抓那些大戶也就是抓大放小啦好不好建議我們會納入研議是好好思考一下因為這個東西齁老實講還有包括這個開發票基準點"},{"start":223.547,"end":244.396,"text":"從民國75年到現在38年都沒有調整我做這個基準上來換算這個CPI已經漲了51.8%20起碼可以調到30老實講這稅差準都非常有限啊可是積增成本非常之高啊"},{"start":246.401,"end":256.106,"text":"部長回去思考一下好不好對於委任建議我們一定納入原意好那我待會再做一個提案好了接下來請那個湯董來時間暫停一下請湯董事長"},{"start":264.308,"end":277.859,"text":"館長時間有限啦我就跟你講那個整個市佔率下滑齁其實不單純是海尼根啦還有中國啤酒的關係啦不過我們本身自己要檢討啦齁也就是說呢你有一些商品很好通路卻很少譬如講"},{"start":278.519,"end":294.328,"text":"台啤有18天還有你研發很多的酒類但是酒類又過多好的沒有推出去那個充斥在市場上分不出哪一種是好是壞你們最近增加了所謂的清酒看起來產品很好但是通路又很少"},{"start":295.468,"end":324.236,"text":"還有包括你們的歐馬定價的這種味精又太多產品風評都不錯你們趁你來的時候我不是鼓勵喝酒但是酒避免不良你們現在的技術提升如此之快可是行銷方式如此之混亂啊唐董你來是行銷高手啊你有沒有一個把握把現在的啤酒威士忌還有包括清酒現在比較強項的這三項當中做一個統一性的行銷整合啊"},{"start":325.495,"end":354,"text":"各位我們報告我想過去的菸酒公司是以管理品牌為主我想我來的目的是以行銷為主所以接下來不論是在菸品酒品跟啤酒我想我們未來所有的新產品的包裝跟行銷未來會比過去更清楚你知道多誇張嗎以前歐馬出來的時候連財政部長都不知道歐馬這個威士忌你知道嗎對啊現在部長喝很多現在喝很多嗎對 現在喝很多真的喔 部長那麼喝我都曉得"},{"start":355.679,"end":377.027,"text":"要繳外交不能送歐馬不是送民間的那個品牌你知道嗎這才是國酒你要有這種自信請日本人喝清酒要拿我們的清酒很多檯面上外交場合都看不到國酒的痕跡啊這個我提醒你另外最主要原因是中國啤酒來了實在太多了而且中國啤酒基本上呢你有沒有贊成啊來進來課徵那反請銷稅啊"},{"start":380.976,"end":391.741,"text":"跟委員報告喔 首先先感謝委員落差一千兩百倍喔 我都幫你整理好了喔對 因為中國啤酒台北金門高粱連主席金門高粱也被禁喔"},{"start":394.476,"end":419.866,"text":"暫停進口民間 那就主席的特權了 你看啤酒就沒有差那麼多 政治關係有差啦 溝通當然我們希望這個所有的資料我們都已經提交啦當然我們希望說這個上級長官可以用比較快的時間讓這個請銷稅可以成立那不是對菸酒公司啊 對整個本土的釀酒行業都會有很大的"},{"start":420.246,"end":447.873,"text":"對 沒有錯 這個真的差太多了而且部長你有沒有支持這進行反請銷稅因為到底割反請銷稅還是割平衡稅比較好你的態度是怎麼樣 部長是 跟委員報告目前來說剛剛湯董事長講我們會用釀酒商協會的名義對於提出申請我知道他們今天正式提出了我們這邊受理以後會盡快的進行處理他們今天會正式提出所以請你盡可能行政協助來協助這些廠商好不好 部長"},{"start":452.096,"end":466.286,"text":"通路總是要自己想辦法嘛我去日本的球場在看比賽或今年十二強的時候都有看到很多啤酒妹很奇怪我們直播到現在啊夯不啷噹已經三十好幾年了從來沒有看過啤酒妹沒有賣台灣啤酒為什麼"},{"start":468.966,"end":496.143,"text":"跟委員報告二月三月的台灣的經典賽你就會看得到我們現在過兩個月我們台灣有一個經典賽你現在的這個畫面的這個杯子你就會看得到台北整個球場真的嗎所有球場都有我們已經進行了經典賽先開始經典賽先開始我們有派了八組的人員都是精挑細選過的就是現場就有生啤酒可以喝了"},{"start":496.363,"end":506.673,"text":"生平18天 真的喔2月嘛 等待你的成績這個就打消通路的一種方式所有的球隊都談好了嗎中職球友球隊都有"},{"start":507.632,"end":527.956,"text":"目前是跟台鋼在談跟台鋼那其他呢也要講啊因為其他的競品都有在跟其他的球隊談我們沒有辦法就是說一個品牌跟所有的球隊很早蔡卿他們幫忙好了啦另外最後提醒你一點本期的選區當中上化啤酒廠的這個真劍啤酒公園三年撥3483萬後來我看了一下"},{"start":536.337,"end":563.054,"text":"你這一個在南投一樣風華在線他八年編了多少13.6億啊差幾倍啊 唐總差三十幾倍為什麼差那麼多所有你的風華在線都做在中部南部你就撥了三千多皮球這個真的是重中輕難喔唐總各位委員報告他這個3483萬是在兩年前就編列啦"},{"start":566.116,"end":587.933,"text":"那我們在上個月跟善化有一個牛肉姐其實做的反應相當成功所以未來我想除了編列預算以外總公司也會投入更多的行銷預算那是一個部分牛肉姐你辦得不錯我理解但是我希望這個豐華在線的這個經費相關的部分是不是說part 2再增加一下好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝湯董 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先做一下宣告每位出席委員發言時間5分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘列席委員發言時間4分鐘中午12點截止發言登記現在依照登記順序請登記第一位的林德夫委員質詢"},{"start":726.143,"end":728.964,"text":"謝謝 主席是不是請莊部長有請莊部長委員好部長你好 部長我請教"},{"start":738.732,"end":759.352,"text":"因為這個公告為確保國內物資充裕穩定物價依貨物稅條例第七條與第十條及關稅法第七十一條規定奉報行政院核定從二零二五年一月一日起至同年的三月底"},{"start":760.753,"end":776.747,"text":"3月31號截止繼續對汽油柴油水泥以及22項的這些大宗物資激動降稅這是第13度的延長那部長按照足跡總署去年底針對"},{"start":779.059,"end":779.439,"text":"你的看法呢"},{"start":808.118,"end":814.762,"text":"謝謝委員對於有關大宗物資減徵或免徵關稅營業稅以及貨物稅這個部分如同委員剛剛提到已經是好幾回的一個延長那這一次是會延長到114年的3月31號而這樣的決策主要是行政院有一個物價"},{"start":826.509,"end":827.95,"text":"穩定小組的會議大家討論包含經濟部農業部等評估國內外的物資供需還有價格的走勢那為了減增成本的效益以及國發會跟組總他會觀察近期CPI的一個趨勢變動所以我們認為延長到"},{"start":843.979,"end":858.129,"text":"今年的3月31號是妥適我們是希望尤其在這一段時間也是年節的期間民眾對物資的採購需求是比較大的所以我覺得為了穩定國內的物價以及物資的充裕這部分就延長到3月"},{"start":860.183,"end":873.007,"text":"據本席所了解 上個月中旬行政院召開物價穩定小組會議會議中提到 如果今年第一季國際農工原料價格趨緩 國內物價持續趨穩且未來展望維持穩定"},{"start":881.212,"end":893.543,"text":"即可據研議政策在3月借期退場部長那就財政部統計資料來看請問關鍵原物料護稅減徵措施在3月退場的機率你認為有幾成"},{"start":902.244,"end":916.943,"text":"我想對於物價的一個波動那國內的相關的一個主管機關不管是國發會也好 主機總署也好都一直在觀察它的一個變化以及經濟部跟農業部它也會對於這些國內外的物資的一個價格"},{"start":918.044,"end":924.208,"text":"還有供需情形在評估那麼行政院也會在物價穩定小組裡面去做一些討論那當然在今年的您剛剛提到這個會議裡面認為目前來說是價格趨緩物價也是處於一個穩定的狀態所以在三月底以後是不是要退場會到時候會在三月底之前會整體再來評估跟考量的"},{"start":940.978,"end":961.47,"text":"那部長實施延長原物料降稅的做法行政院物價穩定小組會議這次會後新聞稿突然提到措施將退場會不會造成供需市場囤積的狙擊繼續推升物價的反效果會不會"},{"start":962.51,"end":965.813,"text":"是的,對委員這個關心,其實我們在這個除了穩定物價小組之外,還有一個聯合稽查小組,他會去關注民生物價的波動情形,如果有不當的一個所謂囤積,或者甚至不合理的漲價我們都會做聯合稽查,而這個聯合稽查也是跨部會在做的,那包含"},{"start":985.367,"end":988.949,"text":"我們的國稅局也會一起去參與這個部分也就是避免您剛剛提到的就是說囤積居期然後或者造成物價變動的一些影響我想這個部分我們的聯合稽查小組也會持續的去做觀察跟稽查"},{"start":1002.697,"end":1013.846,"text":"部長 上個禮拜二中央研究院經濟研究所發布台灣消費者疫情與政策反應調查發現近三年約有24.3%的黃東"},{"start":1018.685,"end":1044.051,"text":"漲租金那預估未來一到兩年更有三成的黃東計畫調漲租金這也是成為近年通膨居高不下的壓力來源那另外中研院經濟研究所預估明年CPI增幅2.02%恐怕是連四年啦衝破通膨的警戒線那部長"},{"start":1045.111,"end":1055.419,"text":"如果依照中研院的預估財政部延誤掉降稅退場的這個預計時程是不是可能會延後你的看法呢"},{"start":1057.202,"end":1075.75,"text":"是的我想那個經濟所當然它也有它的預估我們祖宗也有祖宗的預估那祖宗他對於今年14年的預估是1.93但這個部分大家都還是要持續的觀察物價的一個波動情形那你認為主計總署和中研院的預測誰比較客觀"},{"start":1078.715,"end":1089.762,"text":"基本上他們都有相關的客觀數據那當然預測上因為各機關他們有不同的一些看法那不同看法總是你認為他的準確度誰比較高"},{"start":1091.042,"end":1101.689,"text":"我這個很難講說誰的準確度高那我們主總基本上他是我們這個有關這個預測CPR的一個主管機關基本上我們會參考主總的一個數據"},{"start":1120.822,"end":1146.205,"text":"能高那請問這個川普2.0關稅政策如果成真你認為對國內物價指數的可能影響是正面的還是負面的跟委員報告對於各個政策比如川普上任以後的相關政策他所採取的一些強度或實施的期間目前大家也都在關注那至於比如說能源價格的下降"},{"start":1146.687,"end":1163.473,"text":"以及食物的價格會不會再走高這個還要再看大眾物資當然對民眾來說他比較切身以及經常他要採購的譬如說外食的價格他是最有感的我想這個外食價格我想大家都覺得他事實上有在調漲部長"},{"start":1165.529,"end":1185.72,"text":"今晚未推動台灣個人投資儲蓄帳戶TISA就是投資帳戶這樣的政策今年上路因為沒有辦法爭取到財政部額外增加護稅的優惠所以彭主委表示政策轉個彎未來將採取"},{"start":1189.522,"end":1211.213,"text":"兩大的方式來推動一由業者提供國人投資的這些手續費優惠二整合既有的這些護稅優惠鼓勵個人先開TISA的這個帳戶那請問部長你認為像這樣的帳戶TISA的政策財政部有沒有義務來支持或配合"},{"start":1212.697,"end":1227.423,"text":"對於金管會他推動所謂的我們台式的TISA財政部當然是支持已經協助所以我們跟金管會也有多次的溝通對於我們現行有關的一些租稅優惠包括"},{"start":1228.863,"end":1248.071,"text":"資本利得免稅就大家知道那個證索稅我們目前是個人的證索稅是免納還有投資支息的投資支息就是股利的部分我們有二折一可以減稅以及在存款的部分的利息有27萬的一個特別扣除所以相關的現行的租稅優惠我們和其他國家"},{"start":1248.951,"end":1268.114,"text":"所採行的一些租稅優惠我們比較起來其實我們比他們更優惠所以我們認為說第一個對於現行有關的一個租稅優惠的措施要讓民眾知道那所以我們會提供相關的資訊以及做成一些比如說一些比較容易讓民眾可以了解就是說現行的租稅優惠然後能夠加入這樣的TISA的開戶這是我們現在跟金管會達成這樣的一個共識同時金管會就是認為說那如果這樣的話"},{"start":1276.676,"end":1298.129,"text":"那除了租稅優惠以外除了其他比如說在手續費的部分的優惠這他們認為可以做一個提供的那這個部分所以我們跟金管會事實上是密切聯繫跟溝通我們當然也樂見這個TISA在台灣能夠推動實施那對於租稅優惠的部分現行的租稅優惠我們會盡量去宣導跟說明讓民眾可以了解"},{"start":1298.922,"end":1320.627,"text":"那個軍管會表示財政部會配合主動協助計算TISA賬戶投資收益的稅戶那我請問部長這到底是不是軍管會吸引開戶政策的話術還是財政部真的會主動來協助參加這項政策的投資人的計算這個稅戶的收益"},{"start":1324.688,"end":1353.104,"text":"財政部其實對於民眾相關的一些需求事實上都有提供相當便利的一些方式也可以協助做計算這個部分我們跟金管會都是有非常密切的溝通跟共識的最後一點喔那個部長有媒體報導沒有稅務優惠的TISA政策不會成功因為由國際上推動個人儲蓄帳戶的成功經驗來看啦如日本NISA"},{"start":1354.985,"end":1380.498,"text":"這個NISA以及美國的IRA帳戶等國家都是為推動政策特別設立額外的稅務誘因並明確說明這個稅務優惠帶來的資產累積效應所以說可吸引民間投資那基於金管會推動的TISA的主要目的是希望增進民間投資"},{"start":1381.739,"end":1398.296,"text":"落實這個普惠國人並增進國人資產管理的人力那請問部長財政部會不會重新評估TISA政策給予特定這個租稅優惠以落實普惠金融的美意會不會"},{"start":1399.861,"end":1424.066,"text":"對於這個金管會要推動的TISA我們其實把現行台灣所實施的租稅優惠跟日本的NISA還有其他國際間的相關的一個儲蓄投資這個帳戶我們他們的提供的租稅優惠我們都做過比較其實台版的TISA是目前來說是跟國際比較是最優惠的這樣喔好謝謝謝謝謝謝委員謝謝林德福委員"},{"start":1430.643,"end":1432.984,"text":"謝謝主席 各位先進我先提一個權宜問題今天我們要審土銀還有印刷廠的預算結果今天巡打馬上就處理"},{"start":1456.998,"end":1470.688,"text":"過去從來沒有這個慣例因為現在有七十幾個案子也都沒有跟委員協調到目前只有十幾個案子有協調所以我具體的建議今天只有詢問不要處理"},{"start":1472.689,"end":1489.358,"text":"然後呢 我建議我們的召委因為為什麼他要這樣子 召委很無奈很無奈 因為今天是最後一次他當召委了所以下個禮拜能不能夠跟另外一位召委 就會委員"},{"start":1491.039,"end":1509.435,"text":"跟他借一個小時的時間那是今天這樣子我們來處理我想這樣對委員比較尊重因為今天還有一整天的時間可以去讓行政部門跟我們委員還有討論否則七十幾個案子一個一個討論這個也不是個辦法萬一真的不行"},{"start":1510.496,"end":1528.857,"text":"那整個案子就送到朝委協商也不是不可以過去案例是來不及了來不及就往前送往前送就不要今天這樣子今天給人家感覺很倉促處理的品質很不好也不尊重立委好不好我就提這樣的一個缺乳問題"},{"start":1531.139,"end":1560.539,"text":"等下我們跟賴昭偉討論如果他同意下個禮拜借我禮拜一借我大概一個小時的時間那我們現在的這個相關的提案預算案只有七十一個案子那七十一個案子如果今天不處理我想這個土銀 煙酒公司印刷廠那你們可以趕快花時間到下個禮拜一比如說九點我們來審查這個預算的時候你們還有一天多的時間可以跟各個各位委員去做溝通說不定七十幾個案子溝通"},{"start":1561.359,"end":1577.264,"text":"完以後說不定剩下沒有多少案子說不定委員都可以有溝通的這個說是不是不一定簡略啊說不定是凍結啊或是給大家一點時間好了等一下如果賴委員同意等一下賴委員會過來如果他同意的話我們就下個禮拜一來講對 我就是說想快借一個小時時間給給我們那個陳委員啊 陳昭偉啊"},{"start":1584.986,"end":1599.577,"text":"等一下如果賴委員同意 下個禮拜給我一個小時的時間因為七十幾個案子 現在只有溝通了十一個案子那我們還是給相關單位一點時間繼續做溝通如果可以縮減的話 那到時候事實上下個禮拜也會很快的就審查完畢嘛好 謝謝好 請部長"},{"start":1610.263,"end":1632.014,"text":"委員好部長你好我還是關心才華法昨天賴總統講話了他說要用更大的民族他講的就是要提復義啦要提實現啦要提公統啦我請問你是不是確定才華法要提復義是不是"},{"start":1633.778,"end":1642.526,"text":"委員第一個目前來說12月20號三讀通過的裁劃法目前還沒有送出立法院還在行政院那對於修正的裁劃法"},{"start":1648.391,"end":1663.893,"text":"那我們和主總也都在盤一些對於這個中央施政的一些影響以及我們行政團隊會以什麼樣的合憲合法的一些程序來做一些救濟的措施也都在各種措施都在評估當中是這樣子的"},{"start":1664.514,"end":1685.136,"text":"那你們有哪些業務要抹給地方你們一直講說要錢給的第四期要給有沒有評估哪些事情給地方至於哪一些業務要做一些移轉因為支出的移轉跟業務的移轉是有相關聯的那是屬於各部會各部會的業務的部分什麼時候可以清出來"},{"start":1686.137,"end":1688.98,"text":"什麼時候會寄出來我想這個部分行政院會跟各部會去做討論然後看哪一些業務適合做移轉那因為財政部這個部分並沒有去做實際的你們財政部啊到現在為止啊擺爛的地方就是你們到現在都沒有版本啊"},{"start":1703.412,"end":1716.178,"text":"沒有辦法討論也跟委員說很多次的說明才劃法的修正他必須要經過充分的討論現在已經刪讀通過了現在已經刪讀通過了火車已經開到左營了你還在講說台北怎麼開啊桃園怎麼開啊已經開到左營了"},{"start":1731.645,"end":1754.8,"text":"所以我還是因為委員說財政部擺爛所以我才做這個說明但我也知道目前12月20號已經通過了財化法的修正三讀通過了喔12月20號三讀你不要再回覆說不能接受不能接受他已經通過了不能接受什麼"},{"start":1756.392,"end":1768.917,"text":"你怎麼去把他退班除了你公投把他退班我剛剛才跟委員報告就是說有關在這個合憲合法的行程程序上大家再來討論相關的因應措施那是哪些因應措施"},{"start":1770.009,"end":1790.041,"text":"目前都在評估當中那您剛剛也提到了比如說支出隨同業務的移轉的部分那當然涉及到各部會的一些計劃的業務的部分也都在現在我們看我們正在審114年的總預算是的 是的我們沒有耽誤你們喔"},{"start":1794.528,"end":1822.628,"text":"所以現在有學者 我看了一下 今天有學者點名了所以能不能大家各乾脆各退一步就是啊 因為現在已經省完預算啦你們也來不及啦乾脆115年開始實施新的法你們也不要囉嗦 也不要去提視線不要提復義 大家各退一步這樣的 有學者這樣的建議你們的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":1824.191,"end":1829.453,"text":"是的我們之前也很清楚的說明114年已經展開了各項的業務要往前走都要往前推展所以我們也希望我們大院能夠趕快審議完畢114年度的預算讓各項施政可以不要受到影響謝謝立法院能夠這樣幫我們一起審查這個預算那至於您提到就是說通過的這個採劃法"},{"start":1852.262,"end":1879.221,"text":"但是由於他現在的條文是這麼寫的就是說公佈後就生效嘛就施行了就公佈日施行那是不是要怎麼樣調整我覺得當然委員您提出了這樣的一個行政院報的就學者提出來我只是替你雞婆替你想一個解套方式大家這樣子否則的話火車一樣對撞這個沒完沒了到現在為止是沒完沒了的沒完沒了"},{"start":1882.113,"end":1894.121,"text":"你們不接受 你們現在不接受那怎麼辦咧 法律通過了你不能夠說法律通過的你不管他 不可以啊當然 機關必須依法行政是一個事實你再仔細想一下啦齁這些學者的意見啦多去整理啊想一想怎麼樣火車往前開啦其實還有一招嘛你們稅計勝利拿出來補"},{"start":1911.503,"end":1934.081,"text":"這個三千多億就有啦 為什麼一定不能拿出來呢 稅計剩餘啊稅計剩餘的部分 稅計剩餘的金額可能沒有那麼高照那天主計長的一個說法 稅計剩餘的金額是應該是有限的對 有限的 那至於今年 好啦 就這些了啦問你喔 那個燕酒公司 董事長一起來湯董事長是嗎 是 董事長 董事長"},{"start":1943.553,"end":1956.321,"text":"這個啊你們今年度啊營業有獲利都不達預期的目標差很多你們的員工啊績效跟年終獎金只有2.5個月部長仔細聽好 部長你們這裡面來講的話台電 中油它也業績也不行啊可是它一樣可以領4.4個月財政部你準備要幫他講話經濟部"},{"start":1973.673,"end":1983.802,"text":"莊園台電沒有到達預定的目標一樣領4.4個月可是財政部就沒有啊底下只有領2.5個月你要不要幫營酒公司簽簽話來 部長"},{"start":1987.457,"end":2003.326,"text":"謝謝委員對我們菸酒公司同仁的一個鼓勵那我想這個有關績效加上年終獎金怎麼計算都有一套的制度那我們認為就是說其實菸酒公司湯董事長來了以後他也非常的積極在做這個委員你不要講這些有的沒的你就跟我講你怎麼爭取的啊"},{"start":2007.248,"end":2030.445,"text":"因為一樣中油台電不達標但是記下獎金拿4.4個月研究公司不達標為什麼只能夠拿2.5個月你告訴我啊你怎麼辦啊部長啊台電才這麼講話啊我先這樣講台電跟中油基本它有一個公用事業性質在裡面它可能有一些比較多的一個政策性在裡面我相信是這樣子所以就是"},{"start":2031.266,"end":2043.973,"text":"台電中央就是政府關心的原則說是4號原則說是4號董事長講話 董事長講話爭取一下 給你機會爭取跟委員報告我們明年還是會積極努力的替員工來爭取達標4.4個月這個是我來的目標如果達不到呢 你要不要下台"},{"start":2056.68,"end":2083.126,"text":"我們會盡全力來努力我們會盡全力來努力你應該有氣魄喔 年輕人有氣魄是打不到我下台來喔 告訴你 劉一年 劉一長 看好啊今天一九公司為什麼這麼辛苦有很重要的兩道原因第一個 賴清德總統當台南市長的時候他設立了捷太日菸台南廠"},{"start":2084.762,"end":2112.742,"text":"結果市佔率42.5% 國產業只有23%這是很重的原因日本人還越來啊 日本大哥哥來清德官立發戰略 給人家設公司準備打我們的研究公司第二個 海尼根 你們的啤酒海尼根今年4月在屏東 是要變成東北亞的公戶中心"},{"start":2114.198,"end":2122.786,"text":"這兩個一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年一年"},{"start":2141.438,"end":2159.583,"text":"各位我們報告事實上這個捷太跟這個海尼根這自由化競爭本來就存在這個市場那我來單位四個多月我們的團隊都相當的優秀所以我們對於明年超過2.5個月我們還是保持很高的信心"},{"start":2160.103,"end":2177.28,"text":"怎麼樣增加啊 你現在都節節敗退啊業績會縮啊 業績越來越糟啊大陸市場也不可以啊大陸你現在進不去啊 兩岸關係這麼不好以前可以賣大陸 啤酒可以賣大陸現在大陸也進不去你現在開多了什麼市場 你告訴我順便給你 催牛沒關係給你催你準備怎麼打開市場"},{"start":2183.843,"end":2191.735,"text":"各位我們報告因為剛剛我提的我們的員工都相當優秀所以你講這個聽不懂你能不能講說我開拓美國市場可以嗎"},{"start":2194.455,"end":2222.217,"text":"我們確實我們國外的市場明年會有新的訂單也都在洽在哪裡在哪裡在哪裡因為現在還在保密階段可能不方便隨便亂講市場在哪裡天邊彩虹根本就是沒有看到你們的陰影所以台灣煙酒公司業績節節敗退這才是很悲哀的而且部長又不幫你們講話說因為我有政策目"},{"start":2222.877,"end":2230.548,"text":"我有政策的目標 中有台電的政策目標都可以要領事領事你們就領不到公報要找你我跟你講好 謝謝委員謝謝賴司法委員 接著我們請郭國文委員"},{"start":2253.734,"end":2255.697,"text":"謝謝主席,有請部長,待會再請湯董上來莊部長,湯董請待命"},{"start":2263.922,"end":2291.949,"text":"市委好部長好部長財務法通過財務法當中呢有一條條文原來條文說第三十三條各上級政府對適應特別需要對財力較優之下級政府可以取得這個協助金接下來如果三七五三下放之後很多下級政府的這個財力就會越來越弱了特別是台北市政府這個三十三條以前有沒有動用過將來有沒有可能動用部長"},{"start":2295.107,"end":2323.065,"text":"這個現在來說我們第一個財化法的裡面的中央統籌分配稅款有一定的公式那至於另外主總那邊有一個一般性的補助款這個我都知道了不要浪費我的時間啦我只是問你這個問題啦像TPAS還有租金補貼的部分啦對啊能不能交給地方負擔或者你拿一些來來幫我協助有沒有可能目前沒有33條我們補貼還沒用必要的時候你可以動用啊不是嗎必要的時候可以動用"},{"start":2324.719,"end":2350.388,"text":"對不對 特別需要就是必要的時候啊可以不可以能不能考量這個部分還是要跟組總那邊要做討論要跟組計總處組總那邊喔 當然啊這就要跟組總那邊你們財主單位要去思考這個問題啊財發法這一條可以讓他們動用 但不排除嘛對不對是 一定要跟組總那邊要討論因為是資源的配置 必要的時候不排除嘛可是依法行政嘛 不是嗎"},{"start":2351.889,"end":2377.64,"text":"然後另外一個部分有關小店家的部分就營業稅過往營業稅的課徵成本都是中央在負擔嘛對不對沒有錯沒有錯嘛而且不但是中央負擔還夠人玩嘛尤其是針對小店家的部分問題最大小店家有兩個門檻一個是起徵點這次你們有調整調整了25%但是呢免營業稅統一發票的部分20萬依然是20萬"},{"start":2379.221,"end":2396.073,"text":"好幾十年來都沒有變這本席給你停過好幾次了趁這次財法法的時候營業稅已經下放給地方百分之百你又不是你在用而且基本上你又計課徵成本又在你身上中央政府又顧人願這一條我建議你好好思考一下因為為什麼"},{"start":2397.194,"end":2414.37,"text":"從你這次來算的話你的稅差損挑25%大概10億只佔了所有營業稅6700億當中的0.16而已你把起徵點兩項都提高到20萬這是本席對你的要求這樣子也不過是百分之0.35這樣的情況底下稅差損的不過是23億那53萬家 53萬家對啊就是受惠的對象很多"},{"start":2423.001,"end":2437.476,"text":"部長 而且你們當初只有算CPIO你如果算基本工資的部分啊是高達80%欸 這十幾年來欸你們當初沒有算到基本工資啊所以我跟韓布朗登跟你算了一下齁你會不會檢證立民齁"},{"start":2438.837,"end":2460.522,"text":"最後117年的74期接下來44%這種情況底下齁你省下了三分之一的能力去抓這些小的稅損的不過是23億而已你不如節省這31億抓那些大戶也就是抓大放小啦好不好建議我們會納入研議是好好思考一下因為這個東西齁老實講還有包括這個開發票基準點"},{"start":2466.739,"end":2487.619,"text":"從民國75年到現在38年都沒有調整我做這個基準上來換算這個CPI已經漲了51.8%20起碼可以調到30老實講這稅差準都非常有限啊可是積增成本非常之高啊"},{"start":2489.589,"end":2499.253,"text":"部長回去思考一下好不好對於委任建議我們一定納入原意好那我待會再做一個提案好了接下來請湯董來時間暫停一下請湯董事長"},{"start":2507.059,"end":2531.739,"text":"委員長時間有限啦,我就跟你講,整個市佔率下滑其實不單純是海尼根啦,還有中國啤酒的關係啦不過我們本身自己要檢討啦也就是說呢,你有一些商品很好,通路卻很少,譬如講台啤有18天還有你研發很多的酒類,但是酒類又過多,好的沒有推出去那個呢,充斥在市場上,分不出哪一種是好是壞"},{"start":2532.64,"end":2548.446,"text":"你們最近呢增加了所謂的清酒看起來產品很好但是通路又很少還有包括你們的歐馬定價的這種味精又太多產品風評都不錯你不能趁你來的時候我不是鼓勵喝酒但是酒避免不良"},{"start":2549.326,"end":2567.444,"text":"你們現在的技術提升如此之快可是行銷方式如此之混亂啊唐總你來自行銷高手啊你有沒有一個把握把現在的啤酒Whisky還有包括清酒現在比較強項的這三項當中做一個統一性的行銷整合啊"},{"start":2568.683,"end":2597.274,"text":"跟我們報告我想過去的菸酒公司是以管理品牌為主我想我來的目的是以行銷為主所以接下來不論是在菸品酒品跟啤酒我想我們未來所有的新產品的包裝跟行銷未來會比過去更精準你知道多誇張嗎以前歐馬出來的時候連財政部長都不知道歐馬這個威士忌你知道嗎現在部長喝很多現在喝很多嗎對現在喝很多真的喔部長這麼喝我都曉得"},{"start":2598.87,"end":2620.121,"text":"要繳外交不能送歐嘛不是送民間的那個品牌你知道嗎這才是國酒你要有這種自信請日本人喝清酒要拿我們的清酒很多檯面上外交場合都看不到國酒的痕跡啊這個我提醒你另外最主要原因是中國啤酒來得實在太多了而且中國啤酒基本上呢你有沒有贊成啊來進來課徵那反請銷稅啊"},{"start":2624.168,"end":2634.934,"text":"跟委員報告喔 首先先感謝委員 落差一千兩百倍喔 我都幫你整理好了喔對 因為中國啤酒 台北金門高粱連主席金門高粱也被禁喔"},{"start":2637.667,"end":2663.054,"text":"暫停進口名單沒有我們已經通過了去年那就主席的特權了你看啤酒就沒有差那麼多政治關係有差共委員報告當然我們希望這個所有的資料我們都已經提交了當然我們希望說這個上級長官可以用比較快的時間讓這個傾銷稅可以成立那不是對菸酒公司對整個本土的釀酒行業都會有很大的"},{"start":2663.434,"end":2691.061,"text":"對 沒有錯 這個真的差太多了而且部長你有沒有支持這進行反請銷稅因為到底割反請銷稅還是割平衡稅比較好你的態度是怎麼樣 部長跟委員報告目前來說剛剛湯董講我們會用釀酒商協會的名義對於提出申請我知道他們今天正式提出了我們這邊受理以後會盡快的進行處理他們今天會正式提出所以請你盡可能行政協助來協助這些廠商好不好 部長"},{"start":2692.101,"end":2709.595,"text":"我再問你一下通路總是要自己想辦法嘛我去日本的球場在看比賽或今年十二強的時候都有看到很多啤酒妹很奇怪我們直播到現在啊夯不啷噹已經三十好幾年了從來沒有看過啤酒妹沒有賣台灣啤酒為什麼"},{"start":2712.157,"end":2739.328,"text":"跟委員報告二月三月的台灣的經典賽你就會看得到我們現在過兩個月我們台灣有一個經典賽你現在的這個畫面的這個杯子你就會看得到台北整個球場真的嗎所有球場都有我們已經進行了經典賽先開始啦經典賽先開始我們有派了八組的人員都是精挑細選過的就是現場就有生啤酒可以喝了"},{"start":2739.568,"end":2764.907,"text":"生平18天2月嘛 等待你的成績這個就是打消通路的一種方式所有的球隊都談好了嗎中職所有球隊都有目前是跟台鋼在談跟台鋼 其他也要講啊因為其他的競品都有在跟其他的球隊談我們沒有辦法一個品牌跟所有的球隊很早蔡奇他們幫忙好了啦"},{"start":2766.649,"end":2783.517,"text":"另外最後提醒你一點,本期的選區當中,散化啤酒廠的增建啤酒公園,三年撥3483萬後來我看了一下,你這一個在南投央風華賽線八年編了多少?13.6億啊!差幾倍啊?差三十幾倍"},{"start":2792.489,"end":2802.859,"text":"為什麼差那麼多所有你的豐華在線都做在中部南部你就撥了三千多皮球這個真的是重中輕軟跟委員報告他這個3483萬是在兩年前就編列了"},{"start":2809.305,"end":2834.748,"text":"那我們在上個月跟善化有一個牛肉姐其實做的反應相當成功所以未來我想除了編列預算以外總公司也會投入更多的行銷預算那是一個部分牛肉姐你辦得不錯我理解但是我希望這個豐華在線的這個經費相關的部分是不是part 2再增加一下好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝湯董 謝謝部長謝謝郭國文委員接著我們請賴慧媛委員"},{"start":2842.619,"end":2846.245,"text":"謝謝主席 那個有請財政部那個財政部部長 莊部長"},{"start":2855.209,"end":2876.783,"text":"今天跟您討論有關有償PPP的進度上個月行政院已經宣布造源投資國家的發展方向三大策略的主軸裡頭特別有提到排序在第一就是創新、出産、提"},{"start":2877.523,"end":2906.042,"text":"那個推進的一個機制那就是我今天要跟你提到的這個有償PVP這個當然是希望就是說加強把民間的這個資金引進來到那個公件裡頭那事實上這個政策跟財政部有相當大的一個關係那我也知道就是說部長你在這個2022年12月修正的一個部分條文這個促參法裡頭叫做那個促參2.0"},{"start":2909.184,"end":2926.449,"text":"所以就是重點之一就是說新增的第九條之一政府有常提到公共的一個服務我們就叫它有常PPP那今天要跟部長討論的就是說財政部有沒有新的法制在進行中"},{"start":2928.285,"end":2957.054,"text":"謝謝委員對於初參2.0在修法通過以後所有的相關的法制作業基本上財政部都已經完備了就是執法規都完備了那至於有償取得公共服務就是有償PPP的部分那因為法條裡面規定必須有急迫性、必要性以及等等正確性等等而且民間經營根據效益這種情況下我們也開始做了相關政策性的評估那目前包含只有評估而已嗎你有沒有有亮點的專案"},{"start":2957.874,"end":2972.15,"text":"第一個就是政策評估完成表示這幾類的公共建設可以去走有償PVP這個要先建置建置完以後目的事業主管機關就可以用這樣的一個種類可以那現在已經有在推動了推動那就是"},{"start":2972.731,"end":2987.156,"text":"就是不是只有條文上的有案子在推動最有亮點的案子你認為最滿意的案子是哪個我跟委員報告最有亮點的就是比如說污水下水道的處理"},{"start":2988.256,"end":3010.872,"text":"可是這個污水下水道的一個處理已經推了好幾年了已經推了好幾年應該要更擴大我們認為可以更擴大譬如說污水下水道處理以後它可以進入水廠不是只有做污水下水道的進化接下來水還可以進一步做成為再生水所以你說再生水廠再生水廠也可以用就是儲藏那個有儲藏的PVP來把這個錢引進來然後做這麼大的一個水廠"},{"start":3015.035,"end":3038.26,"text":"讓水資源不要被浪費掉那另外也跟委員報告就是您剛剛的一個創新的一個出餐機制將來財政部會在2014今年就會成立一個出餐專案辦公室我們接受各個目的各個機關他要推動重大的公建計畫的話要先送到專案辦公室來評估如果適合做出餐就以出餐的模式來做這個速度會更快會速度會更快讓各機關炒購"},{"start":3039.64,"end":3057.905,"text":"就是說民間的這些遊資還是說有一些比較大的一個公設那就是公共的一個建設可以引進更多的一個資金進來嗎引進更多的民間資金那另外同時也可以接受民間主動提案他認為說他認為這個公建民間有興趣來做有意願做他也可以主動提案"},{"start":3058.905,"end":3086.047,"text":"那再跟你探討就是租賃公司的款貸這個穿透式的一個管理其實我們知道就是說12月中旬就是中租他發布了一個重大的信息他的董事會已經跟兆豐銀行簽訂了65億的一個連貸案那當然就是說銀行可以就是確保就是貸款不會流向汽車貸款還是先買後戶跟不動產的一個融資那在這裡我想請問部長就是說"},{"start":3087.228,"end":3113.167,"text":"有沒有辦法就是如何讓經檢來確保銀行沒有違規才能正正的避免掉就是銀行繞了繞道把這些錢借給租賃公司借給房地產那有沒有辦法是用信託基金就是說我們這些錢放到信託基金每一筆錢就是說租賃公司他要用的時候我們都可以清清楚楚看得到他是不是守法合法嗎"},{"start":3115.375,"end":3140.677,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個有關租賃公司的這個貸放的部分要非常注意也就是大家都很關注那金管會在一一三年的十二月的時候他已經提出了四道防線第一個對各銀行融資給融資租賃業的話第一個要追蹤資金的流向第二個融資的用途如果是不動產的話他也要遵守央行對於不動產貸款的一些規定而且要記錄這個總量管制"},{"start":3143.239,"end":3158.725,"text":"所以就是說你跟金管會其實你是有研擬出一套的一個方式你們兩兆有研擬出一套的方式就是絕對可以去管制這些錢這些錢可以真正的落實就是說不會讓資源公司挪去他用嗎"},{"start":3159.785,"end":3177.993,"text":"對我想這個金管會他做出了防線那各機關各個公股銀行都必須要遵守各銀行不管是公股或是民營都要遵守那財政部基於公股銀行的股權管理也會要求我們的公股銀行一定要遵守金管會的規定以及央行的規定要遵守這樣的一個規範"},{"start":3179.908,"end":3195.109,"text":"我們也會跟金管會合作如果這個央行第七波的一個信用管制再加上金管會祭出的金融檢查使得國家銀行的一個房貸開始是"},{"start":3195.469,"end":3199.051,"text":"所以我現在要請教你國土署署長他說不會再延長那事實上新青安在明年7月就截止的那財政部你的看法是會不會延長"},{"start":3224.034,"end":3242.168,"text":"所以說這個到明年七月就截止了喔對 明年的我們好像是七月底 對部長會不會再延長這個新清安的政策還是說如果不延長的話是不是有新的清安政策會再持續推呢"},{"start":3243.981,"end":3269.398,"text":"新清安我想做出來以後讓一些需要購買次住房屋用的青年朋友們他可以買到到底會不會延長新清安會不會延長我想這個部分要到那個明年的時候我們再來做一些檢討要到明年的七八月在整個結束以後再做檢討那顯然就是不會延長可能會在結束之前就可以先做檢討結束之前就是等於是說他的前三個月"},{"start":3273.1,"end":3278.783,"text":"可以 前三個月可以研討我們可以看當時的一些狀況來做討論好 謝謝部長那接著我請我們土地銀行董事長"},{"start":3290.799,"end":3308.798,"text":"2024年上半年土銀的換款表現不佳就是你錢借出去的不多尤其我們用公股銀行對中小企業的換款顏額就是說在去年的9月跟10月來做一個比較你借出去的錢是最少的"},{"start":3309.739,"end":3324.017,"text":"在九月份你借出去276億這個非常少啊那是因為土銀就是在這個整個就是業績的一個換款上頭你就是緊縮還是說你面臨到什麼樣的一個困境"},{"start":3325.919,"end":3342.265,"text":"你不借錢給大家 為什麼各位原報告一下是因為我們土地銀行在113年上半年以後是因為我們配合的政務政策我們對土建農的部分我們開始的進行適度的管控"},{"start":3343.605,"end":3358.78,"text":"所以你在未來你的業績會越來越差但是我們下半年的話我們是由清安貸款來補足我們清安貸款目前到現在來做1300多億也就是說今年光是一年增加清安貸款就增加了1000億"},{"start":3359.901,"end":3387.542,"text":"可是你那個大額的都放掉啦你這個新青安是這個小眾啊因為新青安是一個政策性的放款土地銀行是要補助貸款人那土建融雖然是利潤比較好但是適度的調節這個結構對銀行來講也比較有利所以我們其實是我們土建融的貸款減少了大概兩百多億青安增加了大概一千億"},{"start":3388.683,"end":3404.882,"text":"好 我想就是我的時間有限啦私底下再跟那個圖雲就是討論一下就是近期的一個這個換款的一個比例那個主席最後讓我最後一分鐘煙酒公司那個湯董事長湯董事長"},{"start":3405.743,"end":3434.355,"text":"我想那個湯董事長是行銷的一個專才當然剛才郭國文委員有在講到通路是最重要的那這裡頭那個因為冬天吃薑母鴨、麻油雞還有就是說羊肉爐這個是一個最鼎盛的那個季節我特別請教一下那個董事長所有在今年這一季冬季的時候這幾種米酒裡頭哪一種銷路是最好的"},{"start":3436.144,"end":3457.146,"text":"跟委員報告效率最好的還是我們600ML的紅標料理米酒這個27塊的這個是不是 對好那我們知道說你這一個米酒已經好幾年都不漲價了那誰不准你漲價財政部長他認為說你要體恤體恤這個整個民生上的一個需求那你自行吸收了多少錢"},{"start":3458.624,"end":3485.972,"text":"跟我們報告目前米酒的部分因為配合政府政策民生產品照顧國人所以今年跟明年都沒有漲價的計畫那我們現在每一瓶我們現在一年紅標料理米酒大概要損失大概5億左右當然我們也希望說是不是可以列為不利因素那我們目前的米酒是由我們各個酒品去分攤這個損失"},{"start":3487.632,"end":3506.468,"text":"所以董事長你評估還可以在幾年不漲你還可以支撐下去就是說你的紅標米酒你一樣就是不漲可以支撐個幾年其實是支撐不住啦但是我們就是想辦法還是繼續賺錢來補貼這個產品啦好 謝謝也謝謝主席謝謝賴慧慧接著我們請王宏威委員"},{"start":3516.001,"end":3541.596,"text":"我們我再宣告一下剛剛已經跟賴委員達成協調就是預算審查的部分本來今天的部分就改成下個禮拜一早上應該是在賴委員這個宣讀完畢後大概可能在9點多9點半前後謝謝對下禮拜一審查預算今天我們宣達完畢後我們今天會議就結束好的謝謝主席我先請我們的財政部長有請莊部長"},{"start":3552.191,"end":3570.943,"text":"昨天賴總統他的元旦公告裡面特別提到才化法賴總統的說法是有點奇怪他說希望各政黨的版本大家來做協調但是問題是我們在立法院裡面只有國民黨團有版本"},{"start":3571.923,"end":3593.469,"text":"民眾黨團有版本而通過的版本呢就是包含我們國民黨團跟民眾黨團大家有共識的版本可是剩下來的那個民進黨黨團根本沒有版本所以我不大曉得賴總統啊這個說法到底是什麼意思因為政黨版本我們都協調好了但是"},{"start":3594.449,"end":3615.425,"text":"我不曉得他是不是要做一些暗示啊所以我想請問一下部長到目前為止你有沒有接獲任何來自上級長官的指示就是我們財政部行政院開始要研議我們行政院或者財政部的版本目前有沒有"},{"start":3616.492,"end":3633.932,"text":"跟委員報告其實財政部在對於財化法這個部分其實您也知道在去年我們一整年都在努力的在做討論那後來因為在11月的時候我們財委會這邊就通過送出來所以你們現在有版本嗎當時是基於尊重"},{"start":3634.932,"end":3645.196,"text":"財委會所以我們就沒有繼續講其實我們原來是先就指標討論那指標除了三個沒有共識之外但有共識那接下來是要他對指標的權重還有調整係數要進行討論後來因為財委會所以部長我只是問我們現在有在研商我們財政部版本對不對之前"},{"start":3654.019,"end":3681.654,"text":"我想現在目前的一個階段當然後續各種的一些相關的行政救濟措施都是可以都在評估上我現在要問你現在有沒有任何指示財政部未來會提版本有沒有這個部分我們財政部其實我已經說我剛剛的一個部分我們其實可以也可以看到現在立法院三讀通過的版本裡面其實我們就在討論這個相關的一個後面的行政救濟措施都是有"},{"start":3682.074,"end":3689.018,"text":"所以看起來你們只是想提行政救濟但是到目前為止根本沒有版本所以我才講昨天賴總統他在講什麼聽不懂我想說行政救濟是各種措施裡面另外因為我時間關係我想請問一下我們從今天開始"},{"start":3705.367,"end":3720.462,"text":"那麼我們的當沖降稅延三年繼續實施根據在去年金管會所提出來的也就是如果續行採行當沖降稅一年未來三年的"},{"start":3722.495,"end":3738.415,"text":"這個稅收差異可以高達949億將近1000億也就是說實施當沖降稅未來三年降三年稅收增加千億元這是金管會提出來這不是我在算的"},{"start":3739.076,"end":3760.933,"text":"所以我要特別講我們政府在這段時間動不動就一直喊窮沒有錢但是我們都知道一方面我們這三年稅收超徵很多未來降稅之後就是當中繼續降稅未來三年就可以增加一千億所以一年大概是三百億左右"},{"start":3761.852,"end":3785.055,"text":"所以這300億其實可以做很多很多的事情在這邊所以我要特別的去提醒就是我們的政府不要再一直對外喊窮每一次我們提出一些政策就告訴你政府沒有錢什麼都沒有錢可是你邊這個特別預算的時候就可以把錢伸出來所以我要特別講"},{"start":3786.656,"end":3796.561,"text":"當沖降稅延三年稅收多增千億元可以做很多事情好時間暫停一下我請一下我們台酒公司的董事長請湯董事長"},{"start":3806.391,"end":3835.449,"text":"好 董事长好刚才我们注意到赖世宝委员特别帮我们台酒公司的员工来请命但是我们现在所面临的确实台酒在整个的市场竞争之下那么这个老招牌确实越来越失色至少比如说在市占率在2022年就已经降到五成以下了酒类的新品市场推出的金额也降低很多好 来看下一页"},{"start":3836.309,"end":3861.26,"text":"更重要的是稅後的淨利事實上跟五年前是腰斬然後EPS也是連年的下滑所以我想請教我們新任不久的董事長面對這樣子的一個就是台酒經營上出現了一些困境請問您的對策是什麼"},{"start":3864.325,"end":3893.317,"text":"各位委員報告我們確實連續五年營收跟品牌力都下滑那我想最主要的原因過去的菸酒公司是以生產為主他不是以行銷為導向所以我想2025年我們不但會止滑而且我們的業績也一定會成長那我們針對於菸跟酒類佔我們90%的營收我們已經做了很多相關未來行銷上的配套"},{"start":3894.195,"end":3917.462,"text":"所以你在這邊承諾2025年我們的營收一定會增加我們的獲利也一定會增加嗎是你在這邊承諾這次到時候是可以檢驗因為呢時間有限我也拜託就是也跟主席報告那請我們台酒公司針對新的一年新的一年你的一個經營計畫怎麼樣"},{"start":3919.423,"end":3936.907,"text":"去讓這個銀收下滑能夠止滑怎麼樣獲利增加可不可以提出一個比較具體的一個書面性的報告然後提供給我們委員會好嗎好謝謝好謝謝王烘薇委員接著我們請李坤城委員我們開放會場用餐我們中間不休息了巡檔完畢就結束會議"},{"start":3951.604,"end":3968.102,"text":"謝謝主席主席我先提一個權宜問題就是說我們在12月20號立法院已經三讀通過了財化法的修正案但是今天已經是1月2號了我想請問一下主席把財化法送出去了嗎"},{"start":3970.229,"end":3983.936,"text":"陳文華已經在議事處了本期會提出說是延緩送過去的原因是因為那時候12月23號行政院的發言人說如果這樣子會造成114年"},{"start":3986.317,"end":4002.191,"text":"現在2025年的預算恐怕要重編所以我們是善意的說希望因為地方議會已經都審了差不多了嘛各個縣都審差不多然後我們在立法院這個中央的部分我們也大家都審差不多那所以我們過這個"},{"start":4005.955,"end":4011.803,"text":"2024過完2025再送過去這樣對這個他們今年來編明年2026預算從3月開始編的時候這樣會比較順利那主席請問一下這個當初你就是你的延緩送到這個送出去沒有請總統府延緩公告"},{"start":4022.438,"end":4044.523,"text":"不是 你根本還沒有送出去還怎麼延緩公告他的公告時間是10天是憲法規定我的意思是說當初你用的理由就是說這個你認為說預算會重編到卡在年底年初那你現在這個你也排了一個專案報告了包含這個財政部跟主計處都有來報告過他們也說過這個預算不會再重編了嘛那你這一個財務法要不要送出去"},{"start":4045.343,"end":4073.245,"text":"對 那所以這個東西應該這個條件如果已經 上個禮拜也都講完了啊 上個禮拜你都問過了嘛對 上個禮拜也報告完了我明確承認就是總預算不會重編啊對對對 所以就是其他的各個部會包括內政部啊 什麼各個部會就不應該再繼續造謠說這個預算會有什麼參考 會有改變吧這是兩回事 政黨的攻防都有但是按照慣例也讓你問清楚了啊就是說你總預算不會重編 那你就要送出去啊沒關係 沒關係"},{"start":4075.115,"end":4097.712,"text":"這是我的質詢時間啊 你剛剛已經問完了啊你剛剛問完了 現在是我的質詢時間 觀眾可以發言啊我現在就問張偉啊那我們現在既然這個已經審過了就是已經包括這個 就是12月這個已經過了我們就原來發的那個文 我們已經跟這個就是立法院那邊議事處說了嘛那議事處就應該會照這個程序去進行的"},{"start":4098.533,"end":4121.505,"text":"你沒有解凍的話他們不敢送啊解凍我沒有凍結啊我只是請他延緩那好那我問你那現在上禮拜這個專案報告專案報告也排了專案報告也排了那你到底要不要送就是這個問題啊好各位委員尊重我的發言我現在問趙偉好不好你是怕陳毓正沒辦法回答我的問題嗎不會不會奇怪這是權宜問題反正就可以問啊"},{"start":4124.724,"end":4145.365,"text":"也不要再心虛了主席說如果已經財務法財務法已經都講完了那就應該要送出去預算也承諾了不會再重編了那是不是應該要送出去預算也既然不會重編其他各個部會包括內政部或其他相關部會就不要再重複的說這個不是由你來決定的因為你當初"},{"start":4147.987,"end":4148.728,"text":"這個禮拜會不會送出去?"},{"start":4168.235,"end":4187.862,"text":"東西已經送到議事處會不會送出去就是議事處那邊因為上面是你要求的是你陳一貞要求這個議事處不要送出去的那現在已經釐清清楚楚那我就問你說那是不是等一下我看一下大家的討論結果沒什麼討論結果這個就是你在"},{"start":4188.442,"end":4215.455,"text":"阻撓不送出去沒有阻撓啦沒有阻撓啦先已經確定了先已經確定就是不會再重編了嘛那不會再重編了那你預算要不要送出去咧不會阻撓不會阻撓這個有意識潛力可循啦這個沒有意識潛力啦沒有意識潛力啦好你不知道我等一下傳相關的資訊給你參考沒有不是現在就是說意識潛力我可以提供給我們委員會參考沒關係是說總預算有可能重編但是專案報告也都講過了"},{"start":4216.435,"end":4239.664,"text":"總預算也不會重編了那你這禮拜要不要送出去那就看其他各個部位是不是一樣繼續這樣有在造謠嘛說什麼重編啊這我就說這是兩回事嘛這個沒有說什麼繼續造謠然後呢你就不送出去這個是你當初你不送出去的原因在這裡嘛你要針對這個原因嘛這個原因已經消滅了啊那你就一定要送出去啊所以我是希望"},{"start":4240.917,"end":4258.717,"text":"過完年就是過這個2024這個年就今年這個過了啊是 所以我是覺得是應該要送出去要送出去了嘛我沒有否認要送出去我只是希望讓這個預算編轉比較方便那這個禮拜五一年三月開始比較方便這個禮拜五可不可以送出去我不能去幫醫事處押時間啦其實齁這個是屬於這個我們院會的事情啦不是啦"},{"start":4262.521,"end":4280.502,"text":"這就卡在你這邊啊我不能要求議事處什麼時候一定要做什麼事情你不用拜託我啦 我會照程序進行已經講清楚了 其實就應該要送出去了不應該再卡了啊我會照程序進行 不用擔心就當然要擔心啊不用擔心啦 不用擔心啦"},{"start":4280.762,"end":4303.974,"text":"所以這個禮拜能不能送出去這個禮拜能不能送出去我等一下要跟議事處請教一下這個程序我也得問他不要再玩這個文字遊戲是你叫議事處不要送出去的那你說你還要再跟議事處討論一下他的程序譬如說預算審完以後就像我們預算編種完以後很多議事的人還要整理相關的資料啊各方面要給他們時間啊20號啊20號實在是通過了你們當初這麼急"},{"start":4307.636,"end":4333.398,"text":"那是因為23日那結果呢20號已經通過了啊到現在已經1月2號了還不送那個是因為23號行政院的發言說要重編那我剛才說已經說明完了也不會啊也沒有要重編啦那是不是該送後面去了你可以質詢啦不過我先講一下我沒有看到總統府總統也說了他說朝野應該做下來針對這個才化法這是兩回事好好的來討論這都是一件事情才化法這是兩回事"},{"start":4335.14,"end":4346.511,"text":"我們審完了就想要送出去我有尊重因為後面還有別的委員我們讓你先執行完畢再繼續留下來談沒有問題當這個問題已經結束了沒有總編從沒問題的時候主席你應該要送出去好不好你留下來我們繼續討論我留下來"},{"start":4353.698,"end":4376.286,"text":"這不是私下能夠解決的事情啊我們在問一個制度啊這個不是今天的權宜問題因為今天不是討論這個主題今天的會議主要是討論今天的討論是這個土地銀行你剛剛也講了嘛你剛剛也講了就是應該要送出去的嘛對不對好我們等一下你留下我們繼續討論你要諮詢哪一位這個不是私下去解決的事情啊"},{"start":4378.527,"end":4400.925,"text":"這個不是介於我們兩個之間的討論 這個不是啊這是一個制度啊我們也不要佔用這個委員會的時間但是如果 我們也不要佔用後面委員會因為還在等待的時間但是如果願意我們大家質詢完畢 我們可以留下來繼續討論也可以在會議裡頭繼續討論要當眾講清楚 我的意思其實我的意思很簡單沒有總預算從變這些事情是不是就要送出去啊那周委你要回答我啊"},{"start":4402.23,"end":4430.527,"text":"李坤城委員 這個是 今天的會議的主題並不是這個 但是你要討論這個我也不會排斥 因為這個也不算是直球對決嘛 你不是說直球對決啦 我的問題也不是這個也不是權宜問題 也不是秩序問題齁 那所以這是 這是制度問題制度問題可以留下來 等一下我們在會議裡頭去討論好 那我問你啊 那我們尊重一下其他的委員好不好是不是該送出去了是不是應該送出去了 等一下我們慢慢可以繼續討論因為我還有一長一長段的話要講 但是我不想耽誤其他委員的時間不要用這一個"},{"start":4431.147,"end":4459.806,"text":"等下可以留下來這個卡住好像說這個耍一些時間差然後要擋住這個釋憲或是複議啊等等之類的你現在按照程序來走啦對 按照程序也沒有釋憲的問題啊因為憲法如果法律沒有生效就沒有釋憲的問題啊等你送出去就可以了啊這個整個法律問題等下我詳細跟您說明那我們是不是你要先請哪一位首長來備詢呢"},{"start":4461.227,"end":4461.348,"text":"請這個財政部部長請莊部長"},{"start":4472.05,"end":4492.503,"text":"蘇發部也講得很清楚從今年元旦開始網路廣告平台如果沒有落實實名制就要開罰之前也講過好多次了我先要求我們財政部所屬的機關機構還有飯工股銀行不要再下廣告給沒有實名制的網路平台了"},{"start":4494.437,"end":4516.229,"text":"去年齁 過了就算了 因為你們給我們的資料齁 到去年的這個十月底為止齁你們預算大概都執行了大概九成以上那從今年開始 這個預算過了之後可不可以要求財政部 自己所屬的機關機構 飯工股 銀行這個不要再下廣告給沒有這個實名制的這個平台包含一些什麼網紅啊 直播等等之類的"},{"start":4518.549,"end":4542.45,"text":"謝謝委員我想對於沒有實名制的平台跟網紅等等財政部跟所屬機關還有公股金融事業都不會再下廣告確定對然後另外菸酒公司這個部分因為它在銷售上的一些對象以及跟其他業者的一些競爭情形那他們有一些考量是不是讓董事長來做說明請董事長來做一個說明因為"},{"start":4544.606,"end":4560.486,"text":"這個台灣英九公司這實際上在去年編了這個3748萬來做這個行銷那當然也有含這個非實名制的那現在已經確定就是說你這個非實名制的如果這個沒有實名制要開罰"},{"start":4562.168,"end":4576.133,"text":"那我們打仗從我們自己先開始做起那是不是能夠承諾就是說這個從今年度開始如果是這個非實名制的這個網路的平台你們不要再下廣告下廣告的這一個平台還有很多啊去往實名制的"},{"start":4578.348,"end":4599.19,"text":"跟我們報告 事實上菸酒公司大部分的廣告還是在傳統的電視跟實體通路我剛看了一下我們去年在這個LINE Google跟FB其實我們下的廣告才一千多萬所以我想我們未來你們給我的數據啊就是網路廣告的預算有3748萬"},{"start":4601.718,"end":4622.12,"text":"是 最主要是這個三個比較大的平台啦我們下的廣告哪三個LINE FB跟GOOGLEFACEBOOK跟GOOGLE那也要實名制啊 他們應該是有實名制的啦對 所以我們明年也會要求我們所有的廣告的投放商如果沒有實名制的話我們盡量會去避免"},{"start":4623.41,"end":4645.943,"text":"就不應該投放啦,什麼叫應該盡量去避免,就不應該投放啦,打仗就是要從我們開始做起啊所以說如果沒有實名制的話,就不要去投放廣告,應該是這樣才對啊,對不對是不是?是對啊,因為現在是,等一下本來是要實名的預算啊,對不對你們今年度變了多少預算?114年的,在這個網路行銷部分"},{"start":4649.611,"end":4667.72,"text":"我們的總預算應該是15.3億15億多網路行銷啦好沒關係就是一個原則這個如果沒有這個實名制的廣告不要再下好不好好再請教一下部長"},{"start":4669.239,"end":4683.05,"text":"這個等一下跟臺灣菸酒也有關係這個運產條例在這個12月13號通過了然後這個有做了修正就是針對這個遷讀反抗運動的就定罰則也定刑期那現在我看了一個新聞這個是在這個去年的"},{"start":4687.513,"end":4698.84,"text":"12月26號到現在已經超過一年了你們有啟動一個公股求援防護網就是要成立一個防堵信託基金那請問一下這一年過去有成立了嗎"},{"start":4708.583,"end":4718.428,"text":"從目前來說我們是看藍協成立職籃球員的簽約信的一個信託那成立了什麼 抱歉 剛才聽不清楚"},{"start":4720.882,"end":4743.345,"text":"不是 我們是這樣子 因為藍協的部分是請PLG聯盟還有T1聯盟凝聚然後共識 然後和藍協演繹成立一個簽約金的一個信託是所以現在有簽約金的信託嗎對 最主要我們是希望就是說這個最主要是為了防止就是說我們的球員去簽賭啦"},{"start":4744.847,"end":4770.447,"text":"去遷讀防堵因為球員有的時候我們第一個要保護他也要讓他不要受到外面的一些東西然後讓他有一個比較安心的一個環境來做這個部分所以我們認為台灣銀行跟台酒公司也會鼓勵這個球員去參加這個藍鞋這個防堵基金的信託還有藍鞋球員簽約金的信託那請問一下那現在我們的台啤台酒"},{"start":4771.167,"end":4789.717,"text":"有加入了嗎?球員有加入了嗎?來,我先跟你們講一下這個你們可以參考中華職棒大聯盟他們就有這個防堵的基金,他們是分成兩類一個就像你剛才所講的,是一個簽約金"},{"start":4791.798,"end":4810.371,"text":"這個簽約金就是說你簽約金三分之一後存入這個大概是你剛才所講的但是我覺得你也講的不明確另外一個是這個職棒球員房賭基金信託這個其實應該才要做的除了簽約金之外房賭基金信託每個月定期定額存入一個合理的一個金額那現在呢"},{"start":4811.552,"end":4836.681,"text":"這個在台灣的籃球的部分因為這跟我們比較有相關包含台皮跟台雲都有現在台灣有兩個職業籃球的聯盟一個就是台灣職業聯球大聯盟職業籃球大聯盟另外一個是PLG那SBL是算是半職業的那是不是這三個都沒有所謂的像這個中華職棒一樣它有一個職人球員的防堵基金的信託"},{"start":4839.703,"end":4863.823,"text":"他們基本上是讓球員去加入球員去加入我是說你們有沒有成立這個基金信託啊如果沒有成立的話怎麼去加入勒這個部分是正在談的部分正在談所以我說已經一年了嘛當然你那時候你是講說是這個公股球員公股球員要成立一個防堵信託基金但是因為我們台九台銀呢"},{"start":4865.423,"end":4887.768,"text":"這個第一個在SBL都有那另外一個呢 台酒是跟這個台啤永豐雲報嘛這次在台灣職業籃球大聯盟都有那我是要求啦 這個我們的台啤跟這個我們的台銀去跟直籃談 這跟籃協談一起把這一個 像這一個中華職棒的這一個球員法輪基金信託把它做起來好不好"},{"start":4889.108,"end":4916.327,"text":"謝謝委員的建議對啊 因為我們從去年開始要做到現在已經一年的時間了都沒有做你們可不可以給一個期程啊好 我們積極的來處理 然後來做回報好 就是看你們要怎麼做來跟本席來講一下 好不好好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝主席謝謝李坤貞委員因為賴總統有說朝野版本要來協商嘛那我們再看行政院是不是還要提出版本啊"},{"start":4917.108,"end":4919.37,"text":"主席 麻煩請財政部莊部長好 請莊部長委員好部長 剛剛大家一直提到的財政收支劃分法既有收 還要有支的部分"},{"start":4940.987,"end":4966.312,"text":"那收的部分除了垂直如何分配之外水平要如何分配那現在水平分配因為都沒有討論那一天事實上是臨時要表決前幾分鐘才拿出來的修正案那就通過了所以通過之後各地各縣市地方都引起非常大的反彈那是不是因為這樣所以現在有一些討論"},{"start":4967.95,"end":4994.847,"text":"那我現在還要提醒你不是只有收的部分的垂直分配跟水平分配的問題資的部分 權責如何劃分也完全沒有那這個權責如何劃分也不是你財政部一個部可以決定的收的部分大概跟縣市政府談這些如何分配的公式你們之前有去做了兩三次"},{"start":4996.192,"end":5019.625,"text":"基本上把那些公式的指標已經縮減到剩下二十幾項嘛那一部分當然是需要繼續進行那資的部分如何建立行政院你要召集地方政府跟中央政府大家一起來談如何來分配這樣子才有辦法完整的去調整整個財政收支劃分法"},{"start":5021.262,"end":5044.157,"text":"所以我覺得這個工作非常的艱鉅啊那應該不要停頓要趕快進行在資的部分應該趕快建議行政院也要召集各地方政府那當然收的部分水平分配的部分跟垂直分配的部分你們是有很重要的參與比例但資的部分恐怕要更高層級才有辦法處理你認不認同啊"},{"start":5045.077,"end":5059.768,"text":"委員說得很細第一個就是資的部分因為中央垂直分配的部分涉及到中央跟地方的市權的劃分你要有市權的劃分清楚才有資對不對錢是跟著市權走的所以這一次因為完全沒有討論到市權那市權又涉及到各部會的業務執掌去怎麼樣做明確的劃分所以這個部分院裡面會要統籌來做這個跟各部會來做討論我舉一個例子"},{"start":5075.058,"end":5097.973,"text":"現在在討論那個說多少所得稅比例以下的老人他的健保費要由中央政府出還是地方政府出還是有沒有要統一這個如果大家能夠把事權談好是併在一起處理的不然的話現在喔他們真是在實質的剝奪行政機關的這個財政權"},{"start":5102.54,"end":5129.972,"text":"因為其實行政權主要兩大核心就是人事跟經費那他用一再的用法律案綁這一些費用的支出其實就是實質在剝奪你行政機關的權利這個我認為是違反憲法權利分立的原則我個人認為還蠻明確的啦那只是他不是用預算案他現在是用法律案的方式來綁這個以後"},{"start":5133.14,"end":5148.405,"text":"除非我們的憲法制度改變不然以後沒有人有辦法執政了他是把外國內閣制國會所有的權利拿到台灣要來用那台灣不是內閣制國家啊照理來講如果你合理"},{"start":5150.165,"end":5172.824,"text":"可以討論真的大家都想要走內閣制國家的話要從憲法的修正開始結果他不尋此道他要用他國衛多數的權力就去搶奪我跟你講這樣子是沒完沒了因為如果可以這樣的話那我以後等到執政黨 多數黨的時候我也可以去搶奪地方政府的財政我也可以去搶奪他的權力"},{"start":5174.042,"end":5186.708,"text":"那整個台灣的這個憲政制度全部都亂了套這是我們最憂心的所以我覺得那個還是要去進行好 那我要另外請土銀的何董事長請何董事長"},{"start":5194.765,"end":5205.66,"text":"剛剛的對話我有聽到但是你土地銀行作為一個過去被標榜為不動產融資的專業銀行這是你們土銀以前最大的定位"},{"start":5207.025,"end":5229.588,"text":"好那現在央行因為他的政策所以做了一些限縮那對你們跟其他的銀行沒有差別待遇嗎目前主管機關對我們在土建農工房貸他單獨另外有設定了一個限制的比率使得我們跟其他商業銀行的那個差別越來越小比較不再像完全"},{"start":5230.689,"end":5255.97,"text":"所以我覺得你應該也要把這個狀況反映出來啊當初土地銀行設立的目的是什麼那政策當然要推動大家是要一體比較合理但是你們也要有你們自己的空間啊不然不是隨波逐流上面怎麼規定我就怎麼做那以後如果都不能帶的時候假設政策再進一步限縮那你土地銀行平常沒有做其他業務的時候怎麼辦"},{"start":5257.714,"end":5274.847,"text":"是 那跟委員報告是說目前只要是政策性的我們都全部在配合我知道 所以我的意思是說當這個政策下來的時候你們要以你們主體的立場跟他溝通可不可以有部分的差別待遇因為每一個營養設立的基礎不一樣啊是"},{"start":5275.507,"end":5286.855,"text":"你是以不動產的融資作為起身所以你才叫做土地銀行嘛那如果不動產投資你都不能做了那你還土地銀行幹嘛那土地銀行就改成商業銀行啊"},{"start":5289.192,"end":5316.047,"text":"我講的是這個意思我不是說你現在錯了我是說如果政策是這樣的時候你應該跟他溝通說應該要容許你有一部分的空間跟他們不一樣是 我們會跟金管會再來討論這個部分的空間不是啦 這個對你做這個限制的是央行嘛怎麼會是金管會對我們現在的限制是金管會它是配合央行的政策嘛對不對它已經限制了兩年了是好 那請回座喔是請那個菸酒公司的當董事長"},{"start":5319.437,"end":5346.789,"text":"請湯董部長你可以先請回座啦謝謝委員好加熱菸的那個送了沒 送去省了沒公務員報告我們113年1月就已經申請了7款那陸陸續續3、4次的這個資料補正我們在12月為什麼你們資料這麼差要補這麼多次你們送的資料一開始都沒有好好準備嗎是怎麼樣還是他們用這個理由在拖延"},{"start":5349.293,"end":5374.85,"text":"跟委員報告 事實上那個資料因為真的是國建署要的資料相當的細所以員工也來來回回修改了很多次啦那國建署一再講錯話就馬上就要過 馬上就一年多了這個法律是112年通過的一年因為加熱菸不能夠合法已經漏掉 不要講你們公司的損失光說就漏掉幾十億啦"},{"start":5377.422,"end":5391.533,"text":"另外就是說你有沒有預算說假設今年譬如說再過兩個月通過之後你加熱菸的這一方面的生產能夠對於你的這個公司可以創造怎麼樣的利潤空間有沒有準備"},{"start":5392.674,"end":5416.726,"text":"跟委員報告 從112年這個煙害防治法展開以後到上個月 煙酒公司已經下滑了45%的香煙所以未來如果兩個月這個加熱煙如果能通過我們的豐原煙廠應該兩到三個月就可以馬上量產可以把過去損失的這個下滑的營業額應該可以補回一半以上"},{"start":5417.566,"end":5445.747,"text":"那這樣子你有沒有心裡有沒有一個打算這樣大概可以補多少回來應該四五十億跑不掉是啊所以你剛剛大家在問你說為什麼你的業績一直下滑的時候你這部分也應該要出來跟他們說明事實上現在市面上吸加熱菸的人比例越來越高啊因為加熱菸沒有泥骨丁嘛沒有焦油嘛只有泥骨丁嘛所以對健康也比較好對於不吸菸的人也比較好"},{"start":5447.213,"end":5458.815,"text":"那這個邏輯很奇怪啊 止煙捲煙都在準結果加熱煙到現在要省這麼久他怎麼不把止煙再拿回去省省看啊如果照他的標準 現在止煙會過嗎"},{"start":5461.332,"end":5483.559,"text":"我跟你說因為加熱煙比較沒有二手煙的問題我看到很多人 那我是不抽煙啦很多人 連我們同仁很多都在抽加熱煙雖然沒有過 大家都在抽啦就是眼睛蒙住不趕快去進行我要請莊部長再上台一下莊部長"},{"start":5486.411,"end":5514.99,"text":"部長這個事情我在這邊質詢已經問過好多次了我請妳要跟國建署要跟外府部講有有我們都有去跟他做說明你有沒有一年這樣漏掉多少稅跟他講跟行政院講然後這個東西要審這麼久到底要審多久啊法律通過一年多了今天不是剛通過三個月五個月本來講說一開始的時候問他說你這個要審多久可以過說還大概半年"},{"start":5516.56,"end":5536.507,"text":"過去多久了已經過去14個月15個月了拜託你就理論上面就你的稅的角度來講就你的研究公司來講你都應該大聲疾呼啦都應該跟外部講說你這樣子太離譜了加油好不好謝謝謝謝吳秉瑞委員接著我們請黃珊珊委員"},{"start":5553.089,"end":5559.262,"text":"現在主席我請財政部長跟台酒公司湯董事長莊部長還有湯董委員好"},{"start":5572.179,"end":5595.856,"text":"好兩位早我想剛剛很多委員都在討論台酒的營收其實每次講到台酒這個問題這個希望你賺錢又希望你不賺錢我不希望你賺太多錢也希望你能夠有錢可以賺所以這個對民意代表來說是非常兩難但是一樣的台酒公司的營收我想很多同仁都討論過了台酒公司的營收從108年到現在從600多億盡力74億"},{"start":5602.02,"end":5628.998,"text":"然後610、583、567到550從619降到550少了60幾億淨利從74.7降到58億整個的營收是不斷的下滑那當然你剛剛說是淹害防治法只淹收入減少原物料成本上漲這個部分董事長你有什麼不是開源嗎就是節流嗎這樣子的淨利一直下滑一般的企業"},{"start":5630.56,"end":5639.961,"text":"這樣子不是不好看啊董事長有沒有什麼想法呢接下去要怎樣我們要賣更多的煙賣更多的酒還是有其他的方法"},{"start":5641.677,"end":5661.722,"text":"跟委員報告,事實上剛剛我還沒有踢完,煙害防治法從112年1月到上個月台灣的總體市場從289萬箱的香菸總量下滑到168萬這什麼好事啊?對台灣人來說少抽菸嘛,那你的營收少很多啊?"},{"start":5662.102,"end":5682.924,"text":"但是大部分過去持有我們香煙的人都已經轉去持有非合法的電子煙跟加熱煙所以沒有辦法在創造營收的情況下我有幫你想到一個方法所以我們去找了你們對外的外銷也就是說你看到日本看到美國他們的煙是到全球去做處理的"},{"start":5683.444,"end":5700.929,"text":"那台灣營酒公司當然也是我們國家重要的供應事業我們這個部分的外銷目標我看到了你們每一年都有訂出外銷的預算對吧對外銷收入的目標從106年大概9億到110年訂到12億這些狀況都是你的目標值可是你實際外銷的實際收入從9億一直當當當當到現在3億這個不再是"},{"start":5713.919,"end":5740.385,"text":"台湾人抽烟习惯的问题了吧那你为什么外销的收入标可以从9亿到12亿实际上只收到3亿多呢而且达成率大概就是三成左右那每年今年又变了9亿多你明年打算收多少啊官委员报告最主要过去我们60%的外销是从中国啦好都是中国中国不让你进去了是吗"},{"start":5742.15,"end":5767.371,"text":"所以那你每年還定9億幹嘛呢你每年定9億然後又說我的你看你從哪一年開始就只有3億了109年109年你定了12億實際收入3億你第二年還是定12億收入4億到現在定9億收入去年也只有3億那你明年還要編9億多的預算我們是不是直接把你砍掉比較快董事長"},{"start":5770.151,"end":5795.188,"text":"如果沒有辦法做到就不用編這種虛的預算啦這個預算收入現在編9億是怎樣打算明年再來告訴我執行率只有30%你要怎麼樣你是這個公司的董事長你對這樣的預算編列還有接下去的營收目標有什麼想法還是每年就這樣編空的編假的每年執行率只有30%那就不要拿到立法院來你怎麼說勒"},{"start":5798.545,"end":5805.116,"text":"各位委員報告齁 這個預算其實我還沒有來亂編的 誰編的 編的亂七八糟"},{"start":5806.618,"end":5829.477,"text":"每年實際收入已經好多年了已經從108年執行率不到4成6接下來到去年只有3成4還有一年只有29%然後每年還是照編9億多我希望董事長今天的質詢結束你們到預算第二輪協商的時候我相信等一下會審預算吧自己要不要先自己砍一砍"},{"start":5833.239,"end":5854.077,"text":"我們會跟同仁討論數字再跟委員報告這個預算書根本就不該送出來這個預算書送出來就是一個可笑的事情我們希望你賺錢但也不希望你賺太多錢但是你至少自己不要騙自己啊好第二個你說已經因為中國市場的問題中國是什麼時候開始不讓台酒公司進去的"},{"start":5856.701,"end":5868.436,"text":"中國大陸什麼時候讓你不再進去了我告訴你好了111年現在113年這兩年你們做了什麼努力嗎還是他就不給你進去當時是說補件的問題你們有補件嗎111年開始我們"},{"start":5874.303,"end":5900.914,"text":"公務員報告還是你什麼都不知道那我怎麼問下去呢我們有補件啦但是因為那個在華註冊編號應該是沒有通過反正就是沒有辦法進去那我現在就問了好中國市場我看到你們資料是跌了87%所以你9億只能收到3億我也不怪你問題是你其他的市場呢其他的市場我們有努力去做嗎中國有一個代理的經銷商"},{"start":5902.014,"end":5924.227,"text":"歐洲有 美國有 日本有 韓國有這些都有但是我們現在的對外的銷售方式你跟我說法只有四種一個是透過經銷商第二透過市銷商第三透過自由報售第四委制代工所以我們的經銷商你看到我們不是有新南向政策嗎為什麼新南向只有新加坡"},{"start":5925.697,"end":5954.822,"text":"我們在其他的國家有沒有任何要去跟人家的國家找到經銷商去行銷你的台灣煙酒呢各位我們報告其他的國家沒有辦法進去是因為我們的品項的成本變高所以我們在今年度我們也會開始開發一些比較低單價的產品進入南向國家所以新南向到現在為止沒有是你要開始開發是所以你要努力開發要多久才會有成果不知道"},{"start":5956.277,"end":5977.502,"text":"你要開始開發你要成果3.5年以後了是嗎應該不用那麼久第二個部分是市銷商我看到你們給我的訊息是說你們有跟韓國還有一個俄羅斯簽市銷合約的MOU但是董事長知道嗎因為現在烏俄戰鬥關係所以美國發布了禁制令禁制"},{"start":5978.502,"end":6003.431,"text":"禁止高級的酒類銷售給俄羅斯然後我們看到台灣煙酒公司去跟俄羅斯簽了一個市銷合約這不是很奇怪嗎你們要跟你們要反其道而行全世界都不賣酒給俄羅斯我們要去跟俄羅斯合作有這樣的事嗎你知道嗎不知道有沒有人要給他打pass啊主席這樣我問不下去啊"},{"start":6005.191,"end":6022.443,"text":"你知道嗎還是不知道是旁邊那個總經理知道嗎黃珊珊委員所提出的這個就是美國跟俄羅斯這件事情你們自己給我的回答我的題目都已經早就洩題了總經理曾總市銷商是開發市場的我們先試看看市銷商"},{"start":6029.995,"end":6038.082,"text":"現在整個歐洲地區的威士忌是很低迷所以我們還是會以穆斯林的市場為主你為什麼跟俄羅斯簽市銷合約?"},{"start":6044.166,"end":6072.161,"text":"這個部分我可能還要回去跟同仁了解你跟全世界走相反的路就對了問清楚我希望你去我剛講我希望你去賺錢又不希望你賺太多錢但是既然國內我們不要國內的國人一直喝酒嘛一直抽菸嘛所以我們希望說你到外銷去跟其他的國家一樣把台灣菸酒公司的好的產品行銷到全世界所以你應該去拓展我剛講你的營收不應該建立在台灣人健康的"},{"start":6073.121,"end":6101.821,"text":"破壞上面所以希望你能夠拓展其他的市場而不是單單的只在國內市場如果你一年有五六百億的營收外銷只有三億台酒公司要檢討啊拓投你不到你的零頭啊全部都是台灣人在買單啊我現在又問你外銷的東西沒有任何計畫只有三億的收入那真的不要幹啊你們現在還有一個部門專門在做這件事不是嗎"},{"start":6103.226,"end":6115.794,"text":"所以一個新南向提出自己的計畫如果董事長上任有這個雄心壯志很好提計畫給我第二個還有說曾經在107年說要去越南設廠購買跟當地代工還有這樣的計畫嗎"},{"start":6119.026,"end":6146.794,"text":"目前沒有目前也沒有了所以對外的拓展我希望您上任後在一個月之內把未來對外銷的拓展計畫提出一個完整的想法包括新南向包括你去簽市銷拜託一下了解一下全世界的狀況不要去跟世界走不一樣的路全世界在抵制俄羅斯我們還去跑去跟俄羅斯做這個奇怪的生意很奇怪啦那最重要的是我希望"},{"start":6148.052,"end":6167.248,"text":"部長您站在旁邊我再問最後一個問題現在中國大陸的低價的啤酒掛著不同的品牌傾銷到台灣來掛著日系麒麟啤酒掛著美系百威啤酒的名義Made in China的東西現在不斷的在侵蝕我們台灣的市場"},{"start":6168.149,"end":6178.48,"text":"第二個 台灣煙酒公司也跟我們相關的國內的優質廠商成立了所謂的釀酒商協會我想問一下 你們什麼時候要向經濟部去申請反請銷調查他們目前來說釀酒商協會已經把申請案送到財政部這個部分我們會進行"},{"start":6186.448,"end":6213.083,"text":"因為我們有一個生意小組會跟經濟部做市場調查等等因為這個會影響到我們台酒公司的營收影響到我們國人這些公平的競爭那最重要的是如果台灣民眾搞不清楚還以為那是日系以為那是美系這對還有消費者欺騙的問題好嗎?我希望在今年的過年前有個初步的結果過年後你一定要把東西送到經濟部可以嗎?"},{"start":6214.803,"end":6238.49,"text":"我們有一個審議小組會來做這個處理是我們申請進來一個月內就會處理已經是現在進行式台酒公司是裡面最大的一家是台酒公司不領頭羊這些台灣人要喝到好的精釀的啤酒好高品質的啤酒而不是傾銷的啤酒好嗎是的 是的好不好 請部長給我一個時程表好"},{"start":6239.17,"end":6244.474,"text":"好 謝謝委員 謝謝謝謝黃珊珊委員 謝謝接著我們請羅明才委員主席各位委員 初列席官員大家好主席 麻煩請莊部長好 莊部長莊部長 委員好今年是幾年"},{"start":6270.319,"end":6272.916,"text":"2014年西元是幾年?"},{"start":6276.397,"end":6300.731,"text":"2025那你看2025年齁2525就是所有22縣市都在期盼你有沒有?你有沒有?有什麼?財劃法已經通過了啊到底有沒有要撥下來啊我們新北我這邊喊了大概也一二十年齁終於盼到了一點希望的花朵這個中央"},{"start":6301.932,"end":6315.766,"text":"關愛的這個水源即將緩緩的流到新北可以增加374億在這裡我要拜託部長加快速度這過都過了"},{"start":6317.387,"end":6338.516,"text":"因為這個畢竟是百分之七十左右的民意希望所有的錢可以下放地方不要中央集錢又集權就趕快讓他過嘛讓他過個好年嘛二零二五二五二五二五你有啊沒有拜託有啦部長加油一點好不好"},{"start":6339.383,"end":6357.539,"text":"委員12月23立法院三讀通過的裁判法目前行政院還沒有收到立法院給行政院的快了快了是好那如果收到了以後呢你的立場會不會請行政院就不要再阻撓了嗎"},{"start":6359.427,"end":6362.85,"text":"收到以後第一個就是說因為新的修正後的財化法它中央跟地方的部分因為必須釋出大概目前計算是3753億的一個金額這樣的一個金額後續會要怎麼樣的處理我們跟"},{"start":6376.94,"end":6394.733,"text":"行政院以及主計總署都一起在對於有關相關的一個行政救濟的一些措施都還在相關措施都在評估當中如果是卓院長問你的時候你就跟他講說去年2024年今年25年嘛已經截止了去年的稅收超徵多少錢"},{"start":6397.003,"end":6413.304,"text":"跟委員報告在2013年的稅收要到12月底的計算還沒有出來嗎已經到了啊那只是目前推估的部分全國大概會比預算數增加4,900到5,100那中央的部分這是全國"},{"start":6415.547,"end":6439.741,"text":"這是全國那中央的部分大概3500到3700那這個部分其實稅收如果超過預算數的部分屬於中央統籌分配稅款的部分也都會撥下去會在今年的農曆年前就會撥給地方政府我們大概估計有350億到370億會再撥給地方政府這是第13次的撥付那另外屬於中央的拜託那個新北要多一點"},{"start":6440.761,"end":6463.487,"text":"那我們會按照公式計算我們會按公式計算那屬於這個2013年的中央統籌分配稅款會在今年的過年前就趕快撥給各地方政府那屬於中央的部分第一個我們也已經增加還債了市長你剛剛算的那個數字大家心裡就喘了一口氣啊之前有些委員可能不明事理"},{"start":6464.327,"end":6478.082,"text":"講到3700億就說,就是什麼,會什麼,迴旋亂正講到3700多少億就說,國家可能所有事情會停滯然後所以行政部門會shut down所有東西就會倒掉什麼講得危言聳聽所以這個數字會講話嘛"},{"start":6482.426,"end":6485.73,"text":"一出來馬上就把他扒下去對不對稅收超徵快五千億委員這不是這樣因為全國的部分有是屬於地方的部分本來就屬於地方的那另外屬於中國部分的我們還會再播下屬於地方"},{"start":6497.583,"end":6513.833,"text":"中央總統分類上我們也會再撥下去那至於中央超過預算數的部分當然第一個我們就會不去舉債也就是今年原來預算數要舉債的部分1571億就沒有做舉債那另外部分我們也要還債因為這是預算書上規定的要還債我們總共還了1358億這要還現在的國債中上面是修多少國債中是25點"},{"start":6527.336,"end":6529.599,"text":"所以25.2這個數字也還好啊"},{"start":6537.831,"end":6559.756,"text":"當然我們對於財務的控管我們必須要很嚴謹因為依照公債法有規定的而且我知道部長你也知道全世界那麼多的國家當中你如果比較美國的負債或者是其他日本的負債各國的負債我們的財務狀況是屬於優等班呢還是我們的負債情況很嚴重"},{"start":6566.377,"end":6584.992,"text":"其實我們中華民國在這個有關債務的控管其實我們是優等班因為跟G20 20個國家比其實我們只比俄羅斯跟沙烏地阿拉伯土耳其高我們其實是相當低的我們大概就是百分之三十點多占GDP的比例所以大家可以理解"},{"start":6585.652,"end":6596.739,"text":"我們國家的負債情況是優秀的所以拜託不要再用說國家會破產什麼我們從來沒有說國家會破產不是國家會破產而是因為這3700多億的部分市權沒有調整的時候怎麼要拖出來"},{"start":6606.224,"end":6622.721,"text":"不理解的委員,有的是剛剛來才第一次來然後就信口開河,啊這個少了3700億國家會倒會垮事實上是不會的所以就不要以訛傳訛,我們要就事論事另外今天講到其他的單位"},{"start":6625.203,"end":6646.078,"text":"土銀的表現,事實上感覺穩穩的,也做得不錯可是你給何董事長還有張總經理的薪水我算了一下,跟其他38間的本土銀行來比他大概是領到的錢是敬佩莫作"},{"start":6647.52,"end":6673.132,"text":"那部長你說這些表現當中那有哪一個人的薪水領得比他少的38家銀行就董事長來說好了我跟委員報告國營事業的董事長總經理負責任他們的薪資事實上是有一定的規定的不是我來確定的麻煩你往你的左後方邊稍微看一下是"},{"start":6674.173,"end":6690.15,"text":"你給他一點過來的眼神嘛據我所知所有公股銀行特別是這些公股銀行百分之百的大家很多都是蒙身去意你講董事長他一個月領多少薪水"},{"start":6691.853,"end":6714.31,"text":"總長薪水我也不方便在這邊講,我想說他屬於他個人的有沒有十萬塊?這個部分屬於他個人的,當然十萬塊是有啦那有沒有二十萬?二十萬?我不知道欸,應該是沒有吧你看各位親愛的全國同胞,擔任一個銀行那麼大規模我們再來講,圖銀的整個資產規模有多少?"},{"start":6721.247,"end":6733.818,"text":"管一個三兆多資產的規模結果薪資是領不到18萬為什麼不繼續學習新加坡倚夢養年因為我不是只有講董事長因為土銀的員工有多少人8000多人吧"},{"start":6749.796,"end":6771.555,"text":"五千七百多台銀的員工有多少七千多這些所有每天認真在工作苦幹認真幹然後弄半天追求人生最大的目標就是董事長的十八萬的薪資我的天啊"},{"start":6773.376,"end":6779.17,"text":"幾萬個人他終身窮極一生的目標就是董事長最高位階18萬"},{"start":6783.599,"end":6803.98,"text":"委員這是因為有相關法規的關係那也跟委員報告除了董事長之外就是論事其他員工的薪資已經跟公務員的條件脫鉤了既然不合理本席在這裡已經為幾萬個員工的未來在這裡我們努力來討論有沒有成長改善的空間"},{"start":6804.941,"end":6832.583,"text":"每一年就是一年又一年下一次來還是同樣的答案我覺得這個對不起這幾萬個辛苦的工作同仁工作同仁的薪資已經跟公務員脫鉤了就是還有條薪那當然委員也非常重視我們國營事業的員工謝謝委員我相信對於我們同仁的待遇跟福利的重視那我們也會來做相關的另外一個因為還有煙酒公司"},{"start":6833.624,"end":6851.075,"text":"那董事長是?湯董事長湯祈安湯以前的酒是黃湯希望黃湯下肚期待你的事業會平安叫湯祈安"},{"start":6853.359,"end":6864.232,"text":"那你一直所有的面對外在壓力節節下退要思考一個好的方法比如說有沒有聽過茅台貴州茅台吧"},{"start":6865.95,"end":6882.311,"text":"他有上市吧,上市以後發展的不斷的成長,整個市值各方面可以說是很成功啦我希望部長也可以思考一下,怎麼樣來帶領"},{"start":6884.233,"end":6901.489,"text":"煙酒公司可以好好的發揮不然每年在這邊看的業績都是節節敗退但是跟民生相關的紅標民酒的問題還有一些紹興酒料理用酒的問題今年度會不會漲價煙價會不會調高"},{"start":6905.632,"end":6925.5,"text":"各位委員報告我們民生用品的米酒類今年跟明年都不會漲價那菸品的部分呢我們今年主打的會是以高價位的菸品然後打中價位我們設定的是90到95塊的香菸100塊以上的香菸我們未來今年都不會考慮紹興紅露會不會調高售價"},{"start":6932.406,"end":6936.25,"text":"我們會調整產品但是調整售價可能需要再評估"},{"start":6938.188,"end":6963.156,"text":"拜託不要調,因為本席來自新店、聖坑、石碇、坪林、烏來你去查一下,坪林喝醉多的就是紅綠酒因為農民他們查明回來都是需要讓身體可以去濕除寒所以拜託不要調高,調高大家生活都很難過請注意一下這個問題,謝謝"},{"start":6978.4,"end":6996.784,"text":"現在質詢請陳玉珍稱召委謝謝主席 請這個莊部長等一下是土銀請莊部長請土銀的何董事長委員好"},{"start":6998.254,"end":7027.079,"text":"部長 這麼好 你有專心聽昨天賴總統的原告的講話嗎 元旦的講話嗎有的聽到他說 新的一年會繼續推動福國利民的政策但是中央需要足夠的財源來進行各項措施因此我 就是賴總統期待財化法的修法朝野政黨能夠就各自的版本冷靜再思考為國家尋求長治久安知道 對吧這是他的原文"},{"start":7027.719,"end":7036.882,"text":"像您這邊列出來是對的這個朝野政黨人就各自的版本你們的版本在哪裡"},{"start":7038.629,"end":7049.962,"text":"中委員報告財政部對於財化法的修法一直也都努力第一個我們就指標的部分除了三個指標以外有共識我問的是版本已經收斂到三個財政部是七上滿下嗎"},{"start":7059.112,"end":7073.528,"text":"總統不知道沒有版本嗎第一個除了指標之外還有權重跟調整係數都不用講理由我們講答案這理由我也聽一百遍我說版本欸總統不知道沒有版本嗎還是你們跟他講有版本"},{"start":7074.749,"end":7091.548,"text":"我們所有的一個進度都會跟院方報告有沒有財政部的版本到現在我們都在進行當中有沒有提出來沒有討論完怎麼會有版本當然是要有討論有一個跟各地方政府討論有共識所以現在為止有沒有行政院的版本"},{"start":7092.574,"end":7120.638,"text":"我跟委員報告我已經講過很多遍就是說我們要做一個討論所以你們還沒有討論結束嗎我們還沒有版本嗎那如果還沒有版本戴總統這樣子講是因為他被你們欺瞞以為有版本嗎我們不可能欺瞞我們可是戴總統你們沒有欺騙他所以你說他說謊他不知道我沒有說他不知道啊那他為什麼說潮域有各自的版本我到現在看不懂這句話不知道是你們的錯還是他的錯也就是說"},{"start":7121.038,"end":7146.93,"text":"朝野各自可以就忍靜思考然後就各自版本來做討論所以你是不是要趕快照賴總統的意思趕快提出版本啊我覺得版本這件事情都要經過完善的討論所以你要做完整的規劃我知道總統都已經說要照朝野版本因為趕快的話如果討論也不是一個好的我知道都要完善的規劃規劃個一二十年但賴總統都已經說趕快提出來他已經這樣講了你們還這樣拖拖拉拉不尊重總統喔"},{"start":7147.97,"end":7167.165,"text":"沒有不尊重總統那總統都已經心之下指導期了所以你什麼時候要提出版本啊總統說朝野版本要討論啊什麼時候第一個現在12月20號立法院三讀通過你們的不要關心立法院的版本關心你們的版本都還沒有送到行政院你們的啦你們的版本啦我跟委員報告"},{"start":7168.406,"end":7188.104,"text":"好 那沒關係 我不為難你來 你不敢壓日期只要總統說明天拿出版本 明天版本就會出現我也不為難你了 這個也已經上升到行政院也許也不是一個財政部長可以決定的啦如果總統說下個禮拜版本就拿出來討論下禮拜版本就會生出來 我相信就會是這樣子不過沒關係 我想請教您 剛剛"},{"start":7189.085,"end":7204.904,"text":"很多人也有提到這三千七百五十三億的問題我剛也聽到您回答文財委員說這個超徵的這個中央的部分三千多億三千七百億的話三百七十億就會直接撥給地方嘛所以還剩三千四百多億嘛所以事實上"},{"start":7206.187,"end":7229.116,"text":"事實上三千七百多億還有三千四百多億就算明年實施 更何況我們還沒有實施明年實施也沒有問題啊把這錢撥給地方也沒有問題啊這個因應這個財化修正後三七五三億哪裡會有什麼各個部會這邊恐嚇百姓的這種說這個不夠那個不夠明明財政部表現這麼好一年就超徵了五千億 對吧其中中央還有三千多億"},{"start":7230.457,"end":7250.834,"text":"對不對不是這樣子不是這樣子算第一個我們剛剛講的是113年度的稅客收入113年的稅客收入我們對於稅客收入部分我們原來預算數有籌編的多少到中央統計統計有多嗎我們已經12個月分配下去了我知道那如果超過原來預算數的部分屬於地方的部分我們也會撥下去對300多億我們一定會撥下去嘛那是113年的部分那您剛剛講的部分又涉及到114年114年預算已經編了嘛"},{"start":7258.72,"end":7259.943,"text":"所以內政部啊 什麼衛福部 各個預算這些都不會改變啊 對不對"},{"start":7270.236,"end":7286.563,"text":"已經編了嘛 也省差不多了嘛已經編了 所以中央要相關的施政就沒有從編的問題嘛它的相關稅出也已經都已經列入了嘛那是這樣的情況所以其他各個部位都說謊 只有財政部長講的是實話怎麼這個會少 那個會減都已經編了啊 那就要看"},{"start":7293.325,"end":7312.192,"text":"12月20通過的財化法三讀通過以後什麼時候實施生效呢那這個時候要依法行政的話就要開始說生效的話可能再重編嗎不是重編那必須要依照他這個法律的規定看要怎麼實施那還有可能重編嗎那還有可能重編嗎結束這些都過了假如這些措施都結束以後那會重編嗎如果那些措施都已經用盡了以後會重編嗎"},{"start":7322.622,"end":7328.966,"text":"不是已經編了就不會重編了嗎所以還是不會改變嗎我想請問來部長我也不為難您啦因為這個都在讓你回答你沒有辦法回答的問題我們來問一下圖雲來這個圖雲這個我看你們的那個建築的部分"},{"start":7340.632,"end":7362.951,"text":"就是金門的部分有三棟建築金門的土營有三棟建築是軍方蓋的民國五十五年蓋的已經屋齡有五十六年 五十一年了五十幾年了 都危老了很老而且危險嘛那現在你們又要跟金城分行你們的兩個分行要合併嘛那我看你們那個建築改良預算的情形很差那金門的分行改建什麼時候排上計畫呢"},{"start":7364.072,"end":7389.918,"text":"跟委員報告是主要是會延後是本來金門分廊是要採都更然後那個金門縣政府說他沒有還沒有目前沒有適應細則沒有辦法去做都更所以叫我們又回來做改成危老那我們申請危老的時候因為他又要我們做古蹟的文化資產的建立因為地下有坑道對然後文化資產建立以後要微波外部的檢核了以後所以先進度"},{"start":7391.398,"end":7414.358,"text":"變成告訴他說現在整個進度已經進行準備在做地質的探勘大概什麼時候開始有下一步呢最快的話應該是在今年中建築師圖案送到那個縣政府那個做檢測大概明年就有可能了這個進度要抓上謝謝那我們時間停一下我們請這個台九當董事長"},{"start":7421.279,"end":7448.433,"text":"時間沒有站起來董事長剛剛有委員提到你們跟那個大陸申請這個在華註冊碼的問題就是台灣啤酒的問題我們當初金門高樑跟你們一樣就被那個暫停暫停進入中國大陸嘛那我們後來我們去爭取不是說爭取我們有去有送件再重新送件但是我知道的是不是如你所說的是那個你們是根本沒有再去送了吧"},{"start":7449.52,"end":7477.561,"text":"你們根本沒有再去重送了吧所以事實上很多單位還是繼續再送呢各位委員報告目前有民間的業者主動要幫我們送這個文件因為他們跟中國那邊的關係好像是比較友好你們當初沒有送對不對不然以後當初你們沒有送對不對你們就停下來沒送因為我問了你們說那個營業額很低有送件喔有送件有送件嗎有送件有收到退補件嗎"},{"start":7481.116,"end":7485.375,"text":"他就是不明原因 所以沒有通過不明原因 沒有推薦 沒有補薦嗎"},{"start":7488.097,"end":7511.859,"text":"有補件 有補件但是沒有通過啦那現在你們打算再重新送就對了是不是是 我們也可以跟透過委員來協助幫我們申請這樣子可能學習金門高粱的方式就比較容易申請到這個我們會協助啦如果你們 因為之前知道是你們你們不打算送好像說這個營業額太低了吧好像才五千萬是吧一年才五千萬的營業額在啤酒的部分嘛"},{"start":7512.54,"end":7516.166,"text":"不只五千萬還另外請教你們的這個推廣費的預算怎麼變這麼高"},{"start":7522.328,"end":7545.667,"text":"跟我們報告我們推廣費的預算是以我們的營業額立法院預算的營業額我們是以600多億編列2.6%下去2.6%喔2.6%你賣的比金門高粱酒好嗎如果單一產品的話我們的啤酒賣的比金門高粱好啤酒賣的比金門高粱好你們的毛利是多少呢啤酒毛利應該還有"},{"start":7549.208,"end":7550.369,"text":"議員報告我剛提了我們預算還是看營業"},{"start":7564.393,"end":7584.411,"text":"對 營業額 總營業額 我也是看金酒的因為以前我們省金酒的預算你們總營業額跟 當然你們營業額比較高啦但你們的這個這個推廣會編的比例比金酒多很多吧你們是編2.6 我們才編2%是吧跟我們報告 因為金酒它是屬於單一產品我們是 我們公司的品項而且很多你們還是幫忙帶"},{"start":7585.692,"end":7611.882,"text":"像菸的話是代製而已嗎菸的部分我們自己生產我知道有人生產我知道有的是你幫品我跟我們報告因為金酒還有一個特殊狀況它是經銷制所以跟菸酒公司還是不太一樣所以因為經銷制所以我們的這個比較省就對了我們的推廣費比較省就對了是的沒錯然後你們的利率又比較差那你們是不是要考慮改變制度如果這樣子金酒制度看起來是一個比較好的制度如果這樣子的話我們會進行評估"},{"start":7614.58,"end":7639.07,"text":"我覺得這個台酒公司的這個照理來看整個經營當然我也沒有希望台酒的高粱賣得很好反正賣得不好沒關係比金門高粱差是沒有關係但是我覺得整體來講你們的這個利潤實在是就是收益實在是太低了這個一個這麼大的公司編這麼高的這個推廣費但整體的收益這麼低事實上如果這是在金門縣的話如果這是金門縣會早就會被K死了"},{"start":7639.21,"end":7662.804,"text":"我跟委員報告我們的預算裡面有接近大概2.6%裡面大概有接近1%多是香菸的菸價費因為可能金酒沒有做香菸香菸的菸價費每一年上架就要給1%多我們一年的香菸的菸價費高達7億以上這一塊就是說跟行銷沒有關你要上它的價就是要繳這麼多的"},{"start":7664.185,"end":7674.77,"text":"好那你的意思就是說你們只有1.6%啦是不是如果扣掉那個差不多那反而是我們金九變太多了那個我們回去請金九檢討好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝請回我們請吳立華委員"},{"start":7696.425,"end":7701.188,"text":"謝謝主席 有請土迎董事長董事長您好我來到財政委員會諮詢過很多次我一直很希望原住民的原住民保留地可以呢到我們的金融單位成功的來獲得一些貸款"},{"start":7725.706,"end":7751.816,"text":"解決他的一些融資問題改善原住民族人的財政體質那我在這邊也要特別的感謝因為沒有法律這樣規定但是呢可能部會之間有一些困難那我知道困難之後呢我們可以一一的來解決像是園民會他願意來提供信用保證所以他的作業要點呢已經通過審議了"},{"start":7753.447,"end":7772.873,"text":"那另外呢大家說保留地到底要如何建架那內政部那邊也已經做了原保地的建架系統那特別是金管會也提供了誘因特別是在永續金融的部分我看到就是已經給我公還了"},{"start":7773.473,"end":7796.255,"text":"在113年11月11日公布的永續金融評鑑指標其中新增了一個S2G1G4是否提供原住民保留地之相關擔保貸款方案所以我在這邊很感謝大家通力合作來協助解決這件事那我在這邊就是想要問"},{"start":7797.176,"end":7806.014,"text":"因為他們告訴我說預計今年初就是114年年初就可以上路了請教一下土銀這邊準備的狀況"},{"start":7808.759,"end":7827.464,"text":"根委員報告其實原民的貸款早在過去有原住民信用保證基金的時候土地銀行過去做了很多原住民的購物貸款那現在如果原住民信用保證基金在恢復做保證的話其實原住民的貸款應該是很容易迎刃而解的"},{"start":7828.624,"end":7853.487,"text":"準備狀況對 只要原住民信用保證基金開始在受理這些建樹的時候我想土地銀行一定也會努力去推動所以原保地沒有問題你們也願意來重做原保地貸款對 最主要是在原住民保其實本來現在我們本來就有一些原住民的綜合性貸款還有一些消費性貸款所以我們現在目前大概還有1000多件的原住民貸款在"},{"start":7854.488,"end":7874.983,"text":"董事長我之所以一直問元寶地是因為我諮詢過很多次所以族人很開心很期待也不斷的問我什麼時候上路也許他們有人都已經拿著元寶地跑到銀行去問特別是公股銀行所以我才會特別問您土地銀行準備的狀況如何"},{"start":7876.36,"end":7900.262,"text":"土地銀行平時對原住民貸款可以接了嗎?都可以接原保地可以接了喔?對,只要原住民信用保證基金開始有保證我們就會送件了好,就是確定了齁族人不會回覆我說,哎呀我們拿去了被拒絕,不會吧?不會不會那董事長您剛剛提到,對你們跟園民會這些年有合作這個我知道,您剛才也一直提"},{"start":7901.303,"end":7926.61,"text":"那園民會合作的公股銀行有兩家一家是核庫 一家就是土銀那像經濟事業貸款 青年創業貸款微型經濟活動貸款 原住民族事業貸款這四項是你們目前合作的項目可是我就不太明白因為從案件數來看的話 落差很大"},{"start":7927.21,"end":7931.013,"text":"跟核庫的落差很大以經濟事業貸款來講核庫279件土銀111件清創核庫60件土銀25件微型經濟貸款"},{"start":7942.643,"end":7969.038,"text":"合庫2119件土銀1203件原住民事業貸款合庫90件你們32件落差很大喔如果從放款金額看那我大致看到的就是其實說實在放款金額也不多啦那合庫5300萬你們是2900萬合庫大約是你們的1.8倍如果是原住民事業貸款的話"},{"start":7971.139,"end":7996.394,"text":"3500萬對你們的500萬大概合庫是你們的6.3倍差距很大那董事長您可不可以說明一下為什麼有這麼大的差距其實最主要還是要看那個分行的分布分布在哪裡那合庫的現在的分行加數大概也是土地銀行的1.5到1.8倍直接所以你們的加數比較少我才149家分行所以是可能是因為加數很少分布的地點 對"},{"start":7997.955,"end":8009.442,"text":"那董事長我必須這樣子講我也不是找你們的麻煩但是我聽到原民會各地的金融輔導員他們是接到民眾說到土營比較難"},{"start":8015.222,"end":8029.155,"text":"他們說比較不友善會被拒絕那如果是有這種情形那我回去一定會特別注意這件事情好不好是一定會的一定會因為我也不知道是真是假啦但是我們就是得到這樣的資訊好嗎是 好"},{"start":8030.416,"end":8046.591,"text":"那我是這樣子想因為土銀畢竟是百分之百的公股比起核庫那我覺得無論如何我們都有政策性的這個推動的任務沒有道理要比核庫差啦所以我希望你可以了解一下"},{"start":8047.151,"end":8069.629,"text":"那我最主要呢也是希望說我看到你們的專報寫說也不是沒有工具你們的金融服務你們也在推綠色金融行動方案3.0說要協助綠色跟永續發展的產業取得營運資金那我之前我經常在金管會質詢我有提到就是以消除歧視為目標說實在啦"},{"start":8070.47,"end":8088.116,"text":"我們原住民這個五批原則你光是借款人是原住民分數就很低了啦真的是很不友善啦很不利那你問他的資金用途還款來源分數都很低債權的保障分數很低受信長望呢像現在喔我明明覺得"},{"start":8089.236,"end":8113.499,"text":"露營場合法化了之後很多原鄉的青年都返鄉去做我覺得他也很符合綠色永續啊可是好像沒有被包含在內所以他也不太曉得說這個展望這個獸性到底是怎麼樣有一些人他可能要經營森林啊他需要書法他需要一些資金啊可是好像也沒有被納入所以我是希望說"},{"start":8114.6,"end":8131.669,"text":"我們應該要對原住民的產業發展有確實的認識然後做出正確的評估董事長您以為呢對 我很在乎委員這樣子說但是因為大概我們因為這種案子做得比較少所以同仁對這個的概念可能就不會那麼的充裕"},{"start":8132.609,"end":8146.75,"text":"所以我們也希望原民會能夠提供我們一些這方面的資料讓我們同仁知道說這個應該是納在綠色的金融裡面的參考謝謝董事長我很高興聽到您這樣說因為我其實我只是要提醒要讓您了解"},{"start":8147.972,"end":8166.46,"text":"其實原住民進入到這個所謂的金融市場也不過就這七八十年的事情那又處處像土地的限制法律的限制其實我們很辛苦那我們的財政體質呢我也希望能強化我也希望有一天我們原住民族人不要再依賴政府的政策"},{"start":8167.62,"end":8190.066,"text":"我都很期待所以我希望我們公股銀行更要去努力所以我是想說是不是可以在一個月之內能夠提出一個書面報告你們可不可以去想一想如何提升協助我們的族人貸款讓他們能夠順利的獲得投入創業啊農業啊觀光啊文化產業等等這些事業的發展董事長可以嗎可以的好謝謝董事長好謝謝主席好謝謝吳裕華委員"},{"start":8195.762,"end":8215.252,"text":"接著請王世堅委員土地銀行何董事長"},{"start":8227.182,"end":8235.265,"text":"我記得民國94年當時二次經改政府打算把你們釋出20%"},{"start":8255.987,"end":8257.157,"text":"台銀也要釋出20% 當時我在"},{"start":8259.875,"end":8286.848,"text":"立法院 財政委員會我極力反對我認為應該讓土銀 台銀就是成為百分之百關股就是以配合政府的政策那當時政府的目的是說民營化這個會有效率績效也會比較好而且規模才會又更大我認為規模又大那就讓台銀併土銀嘛那一樣維持百分之百關股"},{"start":8288.26,"end":8306.809,"text":"所以我一直對土銀都蠻關注的啦跟你們跟台銀我一直認為這是要有關股銀行的一個基本的規格也就是說要配合政府的政策可是我最近看到你們一些放款的情況我蠻壓抑的就是說中央銀行早就祭出啦這幾十年來他們早就祭出來就是說"},{"start":8317.664,"end":8340.84,"text":"貸款給空地空地貸款不得超過18個月也就是說我們要貸款給建商如果建商你是買這個土地還是要開發18個月也夠你去申請建築執照那開始去動工可以預售啦這18個月一年半那也是跟建築工會"},{"start":8342.912,"end":8371.033,"text":"跟大家共同商議的結論跟各地方政府了解建築之道的申請所以這是對的事情啊但是沒有遵守這一條沒有遵守說貸款給建商的這個空地貸款超過18個月啦你們也不去甩腳也還是擺著讓他爛"},{"start":8372.642,"end":8389.659,"text":"等於擺明了 挑明了 借錢給一些不孝建商讓他去買地 養地 圈地天啊 總共2150億 公營行戶而已喔光九大公營行戶2150億 借給"},{"start":8393.373,"end":8404.705,"text":"一些超額貸款的建商 劣質的建商 他們買地養地圈地等於借他們去炒地皮炒房價這2,150億我們土銀專業的銀行我們竟然佔了1,150億 天啊"},{"start":8417.145,"end":8427.77,"text":"董事長 一千一百五十一多少呢如果當時他買的土地一坪是一百萬他光是這一千一百五十一他可以買十一萬坪的九大公營合物加起來兩千一百五十一可以買二十一萬坪"},{"start":8440.165,"end":8460.781,"text":"那難怪生斗小民再怎麼賺錢存錢永遠追不上房價因為土地都被這些不肖惡劣建商他們搬我們工銀行戶的錢尤其搬你專業的土地銀行的錢拿去買地養地全地罪魁禍首就是你"},{"start":8468.41,"end":8472.192,"text":"所以我覺得不可思議啊我本來對你們期望很高的土銀要進去跟台銀進去一樣那種的考試遠比其他行庫都要更嚴格欸使命感也更重結果成績何時你們不當一回事好啦"},{"start":8495.632,"end":8524.546,"text":"然後最近你們又涉入一條叫太坤建設天啊合作金庫是商業銀行合作金庫做建築融資專業的不動產貸款他們專業絕對不如你專業不如你的合作金庫都知道說哎呦差了一下這一家公司啊這個預售屋賣得太差了"},{"start":8526.314,"end":8538.619,"text":"所以預售的量太小他不敢貸款給他他要貸多少億他本來要跟合庫貸款說這個金額說貸款68億結果合庫不管貸款給他換到你土一你貸給他78億天啊"},{"start":8555.69,"end":8575.424,"text":"78億結果這個案子一樣啊這是一個都更閉案因為賣得太差他還找人頭做假資料結果這個案子被檢調查了已經送法院這已經起訴了這是嚴重的炸彈案所以我不禁對你們土銀"},{"start":8580.612,"end":8590.38,"text":"你們專業的不動產融資你們的評估到底是怎麼樣你竟然輸給合作金庫商業銀行你不覺得這很可恥嗎這很明顯的是一個炸彈案金額78億之多你知道年底到了有多少中小企業嗷嗷待哺"},{"start":8611.425,"end":8634.25,"text":"多少企業簽個三五百萬多少微型公司欸幾十萬這逼死人捏結果你們這麼大把的超報七十八億被他們炸帶帶走啦用假人頭假買賣假都更"},{"start":8640.615,"end":8669.332,"text":"所以董事啊這幾件事還有一個我最後再跟你講一件這個也是建商裡面一個寶啦新復發新復發的黑歷史我相信你們很清楚啊從台中文新愛樂一路下來什麼市政愛樂他的另外一家公司潤濃國家大院一路到高雄港灣一號院文化潤濃這些所有每個工地都出了狀況"},{"start":8671.924,"end":8693.658,"text":"嚴重的是工人摔死好一點的就是寫公案意外火災而已但是這些案子我這邊列了12個案子有不幸達到工人死亡的竟然高達8個之多"},{"start":8696.633,"end":8717.089,"text":"而且不是死一位兩位喔天啊這樣的公司你ESG評估的時候你在評什麼呢把他評什麼啦你不是有ESG表格嗎那這麼糟糕的公司管理治理怎麼會通過呢他"},{"start":8722.054,"end":8751.007,"text":"摔越多工人 死越多工人你借他越多所以ESG你們根本不當一回事啊董事長我知道你可能上來沒多久啦我相信總部長派任你來也一定是希望你能整頓整頓可能有一些問題是你的前任啦他現在也離開這裡了我不曉得是不是他搞的啦但是"},{"start":8752.267,"end":8781.01,"text":"我剛剛跟你說的那幾個情況第一點那幾個情況你回去查你做一個報告給我就是說預期18個月的空地貸款你要如何去收回別的銀行有 也有可是他佔他們總貸款的乘數人家1%你呀 1151 你佔了5%之多 我不要求你0"},{"start":8782.455,"end":8800.229,"text":"我要求你 你至少跟人家其他商業銀行一樣嘛好不好這樣就很浪費了你知道嗎各位報告 你這幾次對我們的指示我們都按照在做所以我們的已經這一年來我們已經收回了將近900億收回900億 收回200億嘛"},{"start":8804.212,"end":8813.477,"text":"沒有那是到上次的時候他每一個月大概收回200億現在數字數字剩下266億到12月的時候只剩下266億因為過去在"},{"start":8821.542,"end":8850.608,"text":"那個委員在講的時候剛好是缺工缺料那時候最嚴重的時候那去年一整年缺工缺料已經減少了以後他們就開始都動工了所以動工了以後使得沒有動工的案件減少的非常的快所以已到12月的話我想我們還當然266億比同業可能還高一點我們還會繼續按照那個委員的指示繼續去改善我想我們可以降到跟同業相當的比率"},{"start":8854.05,"end":8877.41,"text":"第二點就是這個太坤這個炸彈這個嚴重的炸彈案不管法律檢調法院怎麼判但是我們行李土地銀行我們要有態度我們的行政調查我們的行政處分這一定要態度拿出來可不可以而且嚴追他的"},{"start":8878.639,"end":8900.791,"text":"這個抵押物,抵押品,好不好?這一個案子在銀行裡面,這棟都已經都蓋好了而且地主跟那個買的房子的人都已經做分戶了只是還有一部分的漁物還沒賣完,連帶還有一部分的金額剩下來並不是現在的當時的78億,這個在新莊已經整個都蓋好了鋼骨結構的大樓也都蓋好了"},{"start":8903.812,"end":8925.118,"text":"那也都把但是銷售的其差不是嗎那他等於沒辦法分屋貸款你有做嗎你也做沒辦法你大概做一半吧因為這個是一個連貸啦所以分給每一家銀行都會去做所以我們也做了一部分的房貸那剩下的部分他還沒賣的以後還會繼續做這是連貸的部分你統計一下你土銀是主導銀行嘛連貸銀行裡面也是主辦銀行"},{"start":8933.14,"end":8961.018,"text":"第一個主辦銀行本來就要負最大的責任評估的責任第二點你要去計算你貸款給他的就關於分屋貸款的是多少分屋貸款才放心嘛銀行才放心嘛我說你本來的建築融資本來的土地融資那個就是對舊的建商嘛因為他所有轉成分屋貸款蓋好的房子全部都設定在土地銀行所以擔保是十足的是"},{"start":8961.658,"end":8962.058,"text":"蘇清泉委員"},{"start":8982.236,"end":8998.065,"text":"呃不在齁 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌不在葉仁芝委員 葉仁芝 葉仁芝 葉仁芝不在齁本日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢呃 本次會議做如下決議說明及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請財政部與"},{"start":9000.146,"end":9018.601,"text":"一週內以書面答覆委員令要求其限者從期約定委員嚴寬恆所提書面職權列入紀錄刊登公報並請財政部以書面答覆中華民國114年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算營業部有關財政部主管台灣土地銀行"},{"start":9020.154,"end":9034.278,"text":"股份有限公司財政部印刷廠及台灣煙酒股份有限公司令擇期繼續處理本次會議議程已經進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢並列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理李燕秀委員所提的書面質詢並列入紀錄刊登公報好 散會 謝謝"},{"start":9055.637,"end":9056.037,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9080.518,"end":9082.02,"text":"中文字幕志愿者"}]}},{"id":"158655","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158655","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5c27ba1da0e744acb1ad867d1dd5d1dbfc298e4a85a6a9cd512974bf4722aa1b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"13:04:08 - 13:12:35","影片長度":"00:08:27","會議時間":"2025-01-02T11:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，關於財政部主管臺灣土地銀行股份有限公司、財政部印刷廠、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司。（詢答及處理）\r\n【預算提案截止時間：113年12月30日(一)下午5時】\r\n【113年12月30日及114年1月2日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-01-02","start_time":"2025-01-02T13:04:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-01-02T13:12:35+08:00","duration":507,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.95471875,"end":3.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.78471875,"end":12.957218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.649093750000002,"end":14.644718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.52534375,"end":22.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.71096875,"end":22.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.84596875,"end":32.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.852843750000005,"end":38.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.79284375,"end":44.665343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.985968750000005,"end":47.196593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.500343750000006,"end":49.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.149718750000005,"end":66.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.68721875,"end":121.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.78409375000001,"end":133.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.76534375,"end":140.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.98784375,"end":142.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.21971875,"end":151.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.67409375,"end":151.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.66971875000002,"end":152.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.12534375,"end":152.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.15909375,"end":155.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.17596875,"end":152.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.00284375,"end":155.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.36534375000002,"end":155.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.60159375,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.73221875000002,"end":158.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.11596875,"end":158.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.23409375,"end":159.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.07721875000001,"end":163.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.02971875,"end":170.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.87346875,"end":170.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.27846875,"end":171.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.29534375,"end":175.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.81784375,"end":178.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.66971875000002,"end":179.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.86784375000002,"end":183.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.83346875,"end":189.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.57096875000002,"end":193.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.13159375,"end":194.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.24971875,"end":198.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.17721875,"end":203.42534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.69534375,"end":208.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.38659375,"end":214.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.52909375000002,"end":220.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.24534375000002,"end":247.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.57034375,"end":249.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.61221875,"end":251.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.95784375000002,"end":253.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.76346875000002,"end":255.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.95721875,"end":258.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.58971875000003,"end":260.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.10409375,"end":275.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.05534375,"end":292.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.33534375,"end":311.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.18284375,"end":297.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.73034375000003,"end":305.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.37534375,"end":309.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.31159375000004,"end":310.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.27346875,"end":321.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.12409375000004,"end":323.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.49909375000004,"end":329.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.50284375,"end":331.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.63346875,"end":330.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.01721875000004,"end":331.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.62471875,"end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有請土迎董事長何董"},{"start":23.722,"end":38.221,"text":"董事長您好我來到財政委員會諮詢過很多次我一直很希望原住民的原住民保留地可以呢到我們的金融單位成功的來獲得一些貸款"},{"start":39.042,"end":65.292,"text":"解決他的一些融資問題改善原住民族人的財政體質那我在這邊也要特別的感謝因為沒有法律這樣規定但是呢可能部會之間有一些困難那我知道困難之後呢我們可以一一的來解決像是園民會他願意來提供信用保證所以他的作業要點呢已經通過審議了"},{"start":66.793,"end":87.544,"text":"那另外呢大家說保留地到底要如何建架那內政部那邊也已經做了原保地的建架系統那特別是金管會也提供了誘因特別是在永續金融的部分我看到就是已經給我公還了在113年11月11日公佈的"},{"start":90.285,"end":92.406,"text":"所以我在這邊很感謝大家通力合作來協助解決這件事那我在這邊就是想要問"},{"start":110.532,"end":119.365,"text":"因為他們告訴我說預計今年初就是114年年初就可以上路了請教一下土銀這邊準備的狀況"},{"start":122.103,"end":141.549,"text":"根委員報告其實原民的貸款早在過去有原住民信用保證基金的時候土地銀行過去做了很多原住民的購物貸款那現在如果原住民信用保證基金在恢復做保證的話其實原住民的貸款應該是很容易迎刃而解的保留地的"},{"start":141.969,"end":167.172,"text":"準備狀況對 只要原住民信用保證基金開始在受理這些建樹的時候我想土地銀行一定也會努力去推動所以原保地沒有問題你們也願意來強做原保地貸款對 最主要是在原住民準備好了其實本來現在我們本來就有一些原住民的綜合性貸款還有一些消費性貸款所以我們現在目前大概還有1000多件的原住民貸款在"},{"start":167.833,"end":188.324,"text":"董事長我之所以一直問原保地是因為我諮詢過很多次所以族人很開心很期待也不斷的問我什麼時候上路也許他們有人都已經拿著原保地跑到銀行去問特別是公股銀行所以我才會特別問您土地銀行準備的狀況如何"},{"start":189.705,"end":213.607,"text":"土地銀行平時對原住民貸款可以接了嗎都可以接原保地可以接了只要原住民信用保證基金開始有保證我們就會送件了好就是確定了族人不會回覆我說哎呀我們拿去了被拒絕不會吧不會不會那董事長您剛剛提到對你們跟園民會這些年有合作這個我知道你剛才也一直提"},{"start":214.668,"end":239.972,"text":"那園民會合作的公股銀行有兩家一家是核庫 一家就是土銀那像經濟事業貸款 青年創業貸款微型經濟活動貸款 原住民族事業貸款這四項是你們目前合作的項目可是我就不太明白因為從案件數來看的話 落差很大"},{"start":240.572,"end":244.355,"text":"跟核庫的落差很大以經濟事業貸款來講核庫279件土銀111件清創核庫60件土銀25件微型經濟貸款"},{"start":256.002,"end":281.936,"text":"合庫2119件土銀1203件原住民事業貸款合庫90件你們32件落差很大喔如果從放款金額看那我大致看到的就是其實說實在放款金額也不多啦那合庫5300萬你們是2900萬合庫大約是你們的1.8倍如果是原住民事業貸款的話"},{"start":284.478,"end":309.759,"text":"3500萬對你們的500萬大概合庫是你們的6.3倍差距很大那董事長您可不可以說明一下為什麼有這麼大的差距其實最主要還是要看那個分行的分佈分佈在哪裡那合庫的現在的分行加數大概也是土地銀行的1.5到1.8倍直接所以你們的加數比較少我才149家分行所以可能是因為加數很少分庫的地點 對"},{"start":311.3,"end":322.821,"text":"那董事長我必須這樣子講我也不是找你們的麻煩但是我聽到園民會各地的金融輔導員他們是接到民眾說到土銀比較難"},{"start":328.565,"end":341.816,"text":"他們說比較不友善會被拒絕我在這邊說就是希望您關心了解一下好不好因為我也不知道是真是假啦但是我們就是得到這樣的資訊好嗎"},{"start":343.757,"end":359.956,"text":"那我是這樣子想因為土銀畢竟是百分之百的公股比起核庫那我覺得無論如何我們都有政策性的這個推動的任務沒有道理要比核庫差啦所以我希望你可以了解一下"},{"start":360.516,"end":382.974,"text":"那我最主要呢也是希望說我看到你們的專報寫說也不是沒有工具你們的金融服務你們也在推綠色金融行動方案3.0說要協助綠色跟永續發展的產業取得營運資金那我之前我經常在今晚會質詢我有提到就是以消除歧視為目標說實在啦"},{"start":383.815,"end":401.771,"text":"我們原住民這個五批原則你光是借款人是原住民分數就很低了啦真的是很不友善啦很不利那你問他的資金用途還款來源分數都很低債權的保障分數很低受信長望呢像現在喔我明明覺得"},{"start":402.592,"end":426.846,"text":"露營場合法化了之後很多原鄉的青年都返鄉去做我覺得他也很符合綠色永續啊可是好像沒有被包含在內所以他也不太曉得說這個展望這個獸性到底是怎麼樣有一些人他可能要經營森林啊他需要書法他需要一些資金啊可是好像也沒有被納入所以我是希望說"},{"start":427.947,"end":445.014,"text":"我們應該要對原住民的產業發展有確實的認識然後做出正確的評估董事長您以為呢對 我很在乎委員這樣子說但是因為大概我們因為這種案子做得比較少所以同仁對這個的概念可能就不會那麼的充裕"},{"start":445.774,"end":460.085,"text":"所以我們也希望原民會能夠提供我們一些這方面的資料讓我們同仁知道說這個應該是納在綠色的金融裡面的參考謝謝董事長我很高興聽到您這樣說因為我其實我只是要提醒要讓您了解"},{"start":461.326,"end":479.819,"text":"其實原住民進入到這個所謂的金融市場也不過就這七八十年的事情那又處處像土地的限制法律的限制其實我們很辛苦那我們的財政體質呢我也希望能強化我也希望有一天我們原住民族人不要再依賴政府的政策"},{"start":480.98,"end":494.493,"text":"我都很期待所以我希望我們公股銀行更要去努力所以我是想說是不是可以在一個月之內能夠提出一個書面報告你們可不可以去想一想如何提升協助我們的族人貸款讓他們能夠順利的獲得投入創業 農業 觀光 文化產業等等這些事業的發展董事長可以嗎可以的好 謝謝董事長好 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"158633","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158633","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e53152e920baa210391ad867d1dd5d1dbf671cb7f8abfc27ff18318873d924b4585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"11:43:23 - 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那個有請財政部那個財政部部長莊部長"},{"start":13.418,"end":34.516,"text":"今天跟您討論有關有償PVP的一個進度那在就是上個月行政院已經宣布就是兆元投資國家的一個發展的方向其實他在這裡頭這個三大策略的主軸裡頭他特別有提到了就是這排序在第一就是創新出山"},{"start":35.717,"end":55.12,"text":"那個推進的一個機制那就是我今天要跟你提到的這個有償PVP這個當然是希望就是說加強把民間的這個資金引進來到那個公建裡頭那事實上這個政策跟財政部有相當大的一個關係那我也知道就是說"},{"start":56.121,"end":84.66,"text":"部長你在這個2022年12月修正的一個部分條文齁這個促參法裡頭叫做那個促參2.0促參2.0所以就是重點之一就是說新增的第九條之一政府有常提到公共的一個服務我們就叫它有常PVP那今天要跟部長討論的就是說財政部有沒有新的法制在進行中"},{"start":86.476,"end":115.245,"text":"謝謝委員對於初參2.0在這個修法通過以後所有的相關的法制作業基本上財政部都已經完備了就是執法規都完備了那至於有償取得公共服務就是有償PPP的部分那因為法條裡面規定必須有急迫性、必要性以及等等正確性等等而且民間經營根據效益這種情況下我們也開始做了相關政策性的評估那目前包含只有評估而已嗎你有沒有有亮點的專案"},{"start":116.065,"end":132.95,"text":"第一個就是政策評估完成表示這幾類的公共建設可以去走有償PPP這個要先建置建置完以後目的事業主管機關就可以用這樣的一個種類可以那現在已經有在推動了推動那就是不是只有條文上的一個設施"},{"start":134.71,"end":161.71,"text":"有案子在推動對有案子在推動那最有亮點的案子你認為最滿意的案子是哪個我跟委員報告最有亮點的就是譬如說污水下水道的處理污水下水道處理就是可是這個污水下水道的一個處理已經推了好幾年了已經推了好幾年應該要更擴大我們認為可以更擴大譬如說污水下水道處理以後它可以進入水廠不是只有做污水下水道的進化接下來水還可以進一步做成為再生水"},{"start":162.33,"end":184.486,"text":"所以你說再生水廠 再生水廠也可以用就是促餐那個有償的PVP來把這個錢引進來然後做這麼大的一個水廠讓水資源不要被浪費掉那另外也跟委員報告就是您剛剛的一個創新的一個促餐機制將來財政部會在2014今年就會成立一個促餐專案辦公室我們接受這個"},{"start":185.487,"end":211.905,"text":"各個目的各個機關他要推動重大的公建計畫的話要先送到專案辦公室來評估如果適合做促餐就以促餐的模式來做所以這個速度會更快會速度會更快然後讓各個機關朝這個就是說民間的這一些遊資還是說有一些比較大的一個公設那就是公共的一個建設可以引進更多的一個資金對 引進更多的民間資金那另外同時也可以接受民間主動提案他認為說他認為這個公建民間有興趣來做"},{"start":215.507,"end":244.236,"text":"他也可以主動提案那再跟你探討就是租賃公司的換貸這個穿透式的一個管理其實我們知道就是說12月中旬就是中租他發布了一個重大的信息他的董事會已經跟兆豐銀行簽訂了65億的一個連貸案那當然就是說銀行可以就是確保就是貸款不會流向汽車貸款還是先買後戶跟不動產的一個融資那在這裡我想請問部長就是說"},{"start":245.416,"end":271.378,"text":"有沒有辦法就是如何讓經檢來確保銀行沒有違規才能正正的避免掉就是銀行繞了繞道把這些錢借給租賃公司借給房地產那有沒有辦法是用信託基金就是說我們這些錢放到信託基金每一筆錢就是說租賃公司他要用的時候我們都可以清清楚楚看得到他是不是守法合法嗎"},{"start":273.566,"end":298.651,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個有關租賃公司的這個貸放的部分要非常注意也就是大家都很關注那金管會在113年的12月的時候他已經提出了四道防線第一個對各銀行融資給融資租賃業的話第一個要追蹤資金的流向第二個融資的用途如果是不動產的話他也要遵守央行對於不動產貸款的一些規定而且要記錄這個總量管制這個本席知道"},{"start":301.432,"end":316.933,"text":"所以就是說你跟金管會其實你是有研擬出一套的一個方式你們兩兆有研擬出一套的方式就是絕對可以去管制這些錢這些錢可以真正的落實就是說不會讓資源公司挪去他用嗎"},{"start":317.974,"end":336.202,"text":"對我想這個金管會他做出了防線那各機關各個公股銀行都必須要遵守各銀行不管是公股或是民營都要遵守那財政部基於公股銀行的股權管理也會要求我們的公股銀行一定要遵守金管會的規定以及央行的規定要遵守這樣的一個規範"},{"start":338.099,"end":353.3,"text":"我們也會跟金管會合作如果這個央行第七波的一個信用管制再加上金管會祭出的金融檢查使得國家銀行的一個房貸開始是"},{"start":354.5,"end":374.928,"text":"然後灰清安跟灰公交人員優惠的一個黃帶的這個樓地板率我們已經降到2.5%起跳那所以我現在要請教你國土署署長他說不會再延長那事實上新清安在明年7月就截止的那財政部你的看法是會不會延長"},{"start":377.181,"end":400.359,"text":"當時在新清安推出的時候是三年喔所以說這個到明年七月就截止了喔對 明年的我們好像是七月底部長會不會再延長這個新清安的政策還是說如果不延長的話是不是有新的清安政策會再持續推呢"},{"start":402.175,"end":430.288,"text":"這個新清安我想做出來以後讓一些需要購買次住房屋用的青年朋友們他可以買到到底會不會延長新清安會不會延長我想這個部分要到那個明年的時候我們再來做一些檢討要到明年明年的七八月在整個結束以後再做檢討那顯然就是不會延長了可能會在結束之前就可以先做檢討是結束之前對結束之前就可以先做檢討是他的前三個月"},{"start":431.289,"end":436.614,"text":"可以,前三個月可以研討,我們可以看當時的一些狀況來做討論好,謝謝部長,接著我請我們土地銀行董事長"},{"start":448.985,"end":466.969,"text":"這個2024年上半年土銀的換款表現不佳就是你錢借出去的不多尤其我們用公股銀行對中小企業的換款那個顏額就是說在去年的9月跟10月來做一個比較你借出去的錢是最少的"},{"start":467.93,"end":482.205,"text":"在九月份你借出去276億這個非常少啊那是因為土銀就是在這個整個就是業績的一個換款上頭你就是緊縮還是說你面臨到什麼樣的一個困境"},{"start":484.11,"end":500.456,"text":"你不借錢給大家 為什麼各位原報告一下是因為我們土地銀行在113年上半年以後是因為我們配合的政務政策我們對土建農的部分我們開始的進行適度的管控"},{"start":501.796,"end":516.971,"text":"所以你在未來你的業績會越來越差但是我們下半年的話我們是由清安貸款來補足我們清安貸款目前到現在來做1300多億也就是說今年光是一年增加清安貸款就增加了1000億"},{"start":518.112,"end":545.533,"text":"可是你那個大額的都放掉啦你這個新青安是這個小眾啊因為新青安是一個政策性的放款土地銀行是要補助貸款人那土建融雖然是利潤比較好但是適度的調節這個結構對銀行來講也比較有利所以我們其實是我們土建融的貸款減少了大概200多億青安增加了大概1000億"},{"start":546.874,"end":563.073,"text":"好 我想就是我的時間有限啦私底下再跟那個圖雲就是討論一下就是近期的一個這個換款的一個比例那個主席最後讓我最後一分鐘煙酒公司那個湯董事長湯董事長"},{"start":563.934,"end":592.544,"text":"我想那個湯董事長是行銷的一個專才當然剛才郭國文委員有在講到通路是最重要的那這裡頭那個因為冬天吃薑母鴨、麻油雞還有就是說羊肉爐這個是一個最鼎盛的那個季節我特別請教一下那個董事長所有在今年這一季冬季的時候這幾種米酒裡頭哪一種銷路是最好的"},{"start":594.335,"end":615.321,"text":"公務員報告效率最好的還是我們600ml的紅標料理米酒這個27塊的這個是不是 對好那我們知道說你這一個米酒已經好幾年都不漲價了那誰不准你漲價財政部長他認為說你要體恤體恤這個整個民生上的一個需求那你自行吸收了多少錢"},{"start":616.816,"end":644.163,"text":"跟我們報告目前米酒的部分因為配合政府政策民生產品照顧國人所以今年跟明年都沒有漲價的計畫那我們現在每一瓶我們現在一年紅標料理米酒大概要損失大概5億左右當然我們也希望說是不是可以列為不利因素那我們目前的米酒是由我們各個酒品去分攤這個損失"},{"start":645.823,"end":663.739,"text":"所以董事長你評估還可以在幾年不漲你還可以支撐下去就是說你的紅標米酒你一樣就是不漲可以支撐個幾年其實是支撐不住啦我們就是想辦法還是繼續賺錢來補貼這個產品啦好 謝謝也謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"158639","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158639","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5436e5d95f0da0f161ad867d1dd5d1dbf6a11e77586d9faf355ea099cd124814b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:10:27 - 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過了就算了 因為你們給我們的資料齁到去年的這個十月底為止齁你們預算大概都執行了大概九成以上那從今年開始 這個預算過了之後可不可以要求財政部 自己所屬的機關 機構 飯工股 銀行這個不要再下廣告給沒有這個實名制的這個平台包含一些什麼網紅啊 直播等等之類的"},{"start":52.871,"end":77.036,"text":"是 謝謝委員我想對於沒有實名制的平台跟網紅等等財政部跟所屬機關還有公股金融事業都不會再下廣告確定對然後另外菸酒公司這個部分因為它在銷售上的一些對象以及跟其他業者的一些競爭情形那他們有一些考量是不是讓董事長來做說明請董事長來做一個說明因為"},{"start":79.216,"end":83.542,"text":"台灣英九公司實際上在去年編了3748萬來做行銷當然也有含非實名制的現在已經確定非實名制的如果沒有實名制要開罰"},{"start":96.758,"end":110.759,"text":"那我們打仗從我們自己先開始做起那是不是能夠承諾就是說這個從今年度開始如果是這個非實名制的這個網路的平台你們不要再下廣告下廣告的這一個平台還有很多啊去往實名制的"},{"start":112.939,"end":133.777,"text":"跟我們報告 事實上菸酒公司大部分的廣告還是在傳統的電視跟實體通路我剛看了一下我們去年在這個LINE Google跟FB其實我們下的廣告才一千多萬所以我想我們未來你們給我的數據啊就是網路廣告的預算有3748萬"},{"start":136.329,"end":156.708,"text":"是 最主要是for這個三個比較大的平台啦我們下的廣告哪三個LINE FB跟GOOGLEFACEBOOK跟GOOGLE對 那我們那也要有實名制啊他們應該是有落實名制的啦對 所以我們明年也會要求我們所有的廣告的投放商如果沒有實名制的話我們盡量會去避免"},{"start":158.018,"end":180.533,"text":"就應該投放啦 什麼應該盡量去避免就不應該投放啦 打仗就是要從我們開始做起啊所以說如果沒有實名制的話 就不要去投放廣告應該是這樣才對啊 對不對是不是 是對啊 因為現在是 等一下本來是要實名的預算啊對不對 你們今年度備來多少預算 114年的 在這個網路行銷部分"},{"start":184.201,"end":202.315,"text":"我們的總預算應該是15.3億對 15億多網路行銷啦好 沒關係就是一個原則這個如果沒有這個實名制的廣告不要再下好不好好好再請教一下部長"},{"start":203.849,"end":207.454,"text":"這個等一下跟《台灣19》也有關係這個《運產條例》在這個12月13號通過了然後這個有做了修正就是針對這個遷讀反抗運動的就定罰則已經定刑期那現在我看了一個新聞"},{"start":219.089,"end":233.464,"text":"這個是在去年的12月26號到現在已經超過一年了你們有啟動一個公股求援防護網就是要成立一個防堵信託基金那請問一下這一年過去有成立了嗎"},{"start":243.195,"end":253.051,"text":"從目前來說我們是看藍協成立職籃球員的簽約信的一個信託那成立了什麼 抱歉 剛才聽不清楚"},{"start":255.472,"end":277.933,"text":"不是,我們是這樣子,因為藍協的部分是請PLG聯盟還有T1聯盟凝聚然後共識然後和藍協演繹成立一個簽約金的一個信託所以現在有簽約金的信託嗎?對,最主要我們是希望就是說這個最主要是為了防止就是說我們的球員去簽賭啦"},{"start":279.455,"end":305.036,"text":"去遷讀防堵因為球員有的時候我們第一個要保護他也要讓他不要受到外面的一些東西然後讓他有一個比較安心的一個環境來做這個部分所以我們認為台灣銀行跟台酒公司也會鼓勵這個球員去參加這個藍鞋這個防堵基金的信託還有藍鞋球員簽約金的信託那請問一下那現在我們的台啤台酒"},{"start":305.777,"end":324.307,"text":"有加入了嗎?球員有加入了嗎?來,我先跟你們講一下這個你們可以參考中華職棒大聯盟他們就有這個防堵的基金,他們是分成兩類一個就像你剛才所講的,是一個簽約金"},{"start":326.408,"end":344.961,"text":"這個簽約金就是說你簽約金三分之一存入這個大概是你剛才所講的但是我覺得你也講的不明確另外一個是職棒球員房賭基金信託這個其實應該才要做的除了簽約金之外房賭基金信託每個月定期定額存入一個合理的一個金額那現在呢"},{"start":346.142,"end":371.271,"text":"這個在台灣的籃球的部分因為這跟我們比較有相關包含台皮跟台雲都有現在台灣有兩個職業籃球的聯盟一個就是台灣職業籃球大聯盟職業籃球大聯盟另外一個是PLG那SBL是算是半職業的那是不是這三個都沒有所謂的像這個中華職棒一樣它有一個職人球員的防堵基金的信託"},{"start":374.293,"end":398.436,"text":"他們基本上是讓球員去加入球員去加入我是說你們有沒有成立這個基金信託啊如果沒有成立的話怎麼去加入勒這個部分是正在談的部分正在談所以我說已經一年了嘛當然你那時候你是講說是這個公股球員公股球員要成立一個防堵信託基金但是因為我們台九台銀呢"},{"start":400.017,"end":422.379,"text":"這個第一個在SBL都有那另外一個呢 台酒是跟這個台啤永豐雲報嘛甚至在台灣職業籃球大聯盟都有那我是要求啦 這個我們的台啤跟這個我們的台銀去跟直籃談 這跟籃協談一起把這一個 像這一個中華職棒的這一個球員法輪基金信託把它做起來好不好"},{"start":423.699,"end":439.625,"text":"謝謝委員的建議對啊 因為我們從去年開始要做到現在已經一年的時間了都沒有做你們可不可以給一個期程啊好 我們積極的來處理然後來做回報好 就是看你們要怎麼做來跟本席來講一下好不好好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"158624","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158624","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5078b3b8e95685ea01ad867d1dd5d1dbf671cb7f8abfc27ff268cb4a8a8bd5f905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"11:08:15 - 11:19:46","影片長度":"00:11:31","會議時間":"2025-01-02T11:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，關於財政部主管臺灣土地銀行股份有限公司、財政部印刷廠、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司。（詢答及處理）\r\n【預算提案截止時間：113年12月30日(一)下午5時】\r\n【113年12月30日及114年1月2日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-01-02","start_time":"2025-01-02T11:08:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-01-02T11:19:46+08:00","duration":691,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第2會期財政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":2,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-2-20-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.8872187500000002,"end":4.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.97534375,"end":5.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.122843750000001,"end":44.580968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.306593750000005,"end":59.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.751593750000005,"end":63.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.91971875,"end":68.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.83034375,"end":71.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.01971875000001,"end":72.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.69034375000001,"end":109.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.68471875,"end":125.76659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.40409375,"end":123.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.23909375000001,"end":135.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.72284375,"end":142.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.29971875,"end":146.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.43409375000002,"end":153.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.09971875000002,"end":154.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.14596875,"end":156.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.22596875000002,"end":157.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.31846875000002,"end":167.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.51096875000002,"end":206.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.71596875,"end":228.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.48471875,"end":268.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.09409375,"end":244.31346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.95096875,"end":283.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.57534375,"end":269.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.57721875000004,"end":310.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.34096875,"end":322.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.45721875000004,"end":338.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.96534375000005,"end":343.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.61909375000005,"end":340.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.97284375000004,"end":352.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.65534375000004,"end":356.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.07221875000005,"end":368.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.80034375,"end":398.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.32721875000004,"end":409.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.24971875,"end":430.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.46159375,"end":430.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.77784375000005,"end":477.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.79159375,"end":564.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.55034375,"end":483.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.2084687500001,"end":589.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.35221875,"end":603.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.0209687500001,"end":664.9397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.21909375,"end":605.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.00284375,"end":689.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.03721875,"end":689.8640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.5772187500002,"end":691.61909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.926,"end":25.666,"text":"委員好 部長你好 部長我請教因為這個公告為確保國內物資充裕穩定物價依貨物稅條例第七條與第十條及關稅法第七十一條規定奉報行政院核定從二零二五年一月一日起至同年的三月底"},{"start":27.047,"end":43.053,"text":"3月31號截止繼續對汽油柴油水泥以及22項的這些大宗物資激動降稅這是第13度的延長那部長按照足跡總署去年底針對"},{"start":45.376,"end":45.736,"text":"你的看法呢"},{"start":74.432,"end":82.314,"text":"謝謝委員對於有關大宗物資減徵或免徵關稅營業稅以及貨物稅這個部分如同委員剛剛提到已經是好幾回的一個延長那這一次是會延長到114年的3月31號而這樣的決策主要是行政院有一個物價穩定小組的會議大家討論包含經濟部農業部等評估國內外的物資供需還有價格的走勢那為了減徵成本的效益"},{"start":102.76,"end":124.409,"text":"以及國發會跟組總他會觀察近期CPI的一個趨勢的變動所以我們認為延長到今年的3月31號是妥適我們是希望尤其在這一段時間也是年節的期間民眾對物資的採購需求是比較大的所以我覺得為了穩定國內的物價以及物資的充裕那這部分就延長到3月"},{"start":126.497,"end":137.683,"text":"據本席所了解上個月中旬行政院召開物價穩定小組會議會中提到如果今年第一季國際農工原料價格趨緩國內物價持續趨穩未來這個"},{"start":143.587,"end":166.9,"text":"且未來這個展望維持穩定即可據研議政策在3月這個屆期退場部長那就財政部統計資料來看請問關鍵原物料護稅減增措施在3月退場的機率你認為有幾成"},{"start":168.561,"end":190.319,"text":"我想對於物價的一個波動那國內的相關的一個主管機關不管是國發會也好組織總署也好都一直在觀察它的一個變化以及經濟部跟農業部他也會對於這些國內外的物資的一個價格還有供需情形在評估那麼行政院也會在物價穩定小組裡面去做一些討論那當然在"},{"start":191.9,"end":196.065,"text":"今年的您剛剛提到這個會議裡面認為目前來說是價格趨緩物價也是處於一個穩定的狀態所以在三月底以後是不是要退場會到時候會在三月底之前會整體再來評估跟考量的"},{"start":207.297,"end":227.782,"text":"那部長實施延長原物料降稅的做法行政院物價穩定小組會議這次會後新聞稿突然提到措施將退場會不會造成供需市場囤積的狙擊繼續推升物價的反效果會不會"},{"start":228.682,"end":231.384,"text":"對於委員這個關心其實我們在這個除了穩定物價小組之外還有一個聯合稽查小組他會去關注民生物價的波動情形如果有不當的一個所謂囤積或者甚至不合理的漲價"},{"start":246.232,"end":249.014,"text":"我們都會做聯合稽查而這個聯合稽查也是跨部會在做的那包含我們的國稅局也會一起去參與這個部分也就是避免您剛剛提到的就是說囤積居期然後或者造成物價變動的一些影響我想這個部分我們的聯合稽查小組也會持續的去做觀察跟稽查"},{"start":269.011,"end":280.162,"text":"部長 上個禮拜二中央研究院經濟研究所發布台灣消費者疫情與政策反應調查發現近三年約有24.3%的黃東"},{"start":285.002,"end":310.364,"text":"漲租金那預估未來一到兩年更有三成的黃東計畫調漲租金這也是成為近年通膨居高不下的壓力來源那另外中研院經濟研究所預估明年CPI增幅2.02%恐怕是連四年啦衝破通膨的警戒線那部長"},{"start":311.425,"end":321.716,"text":"如果依照中研院的預估財政部延誤掉降稅退場的這個預計時程是不是可能會延後你的看法呢"},{"start":323.516,"end":342.067,"text":"是的 我想那個經濟所當然他有他的預估我們竹總也有竹總的預估那竹總他對於今年14年的預估是1.93但這個部分大家都還是要持續的觀察物價的一個波動情形那你認為竹計總署和中研院的預測誰比較客觀"},{"start":345.009,"end":366.749,"text":"基本上他們都有相關的客觀數據那當然預測上因為各機關他們有不同的一些看法會有一些差距那不同看法總是你認為他的準確度誰比較高我這個很難講說誰的準確度高那我們組總基本上他是我們這個有關這個預測CPR的一個主管機關基本上我們會參考組總的一個數據"},{"start":368.851,"end":387.984,"text":"部長 最近一次央行理監事會的內容提到國際油價等主要大宗商品的這些價格疲軟那帶動人員價格下跌但食品及人員之核心通膨率偏高顯示物價僵固性能高那請問"},{"start":389.605,"end":412.499,"text":"這個川普2.0關稅政策如果成真你認為對國內物價指數的可能影響是正面的還是負面的跟委員報告對於各個政策比如說川普上任以後的相關政策他所採取的一些強度或實施的期間目前大家也都在關注那至於比如說能源價格的下降"},{"start":412.999,"end":429.626,"text":"以及食物的價格會不會再走高這個還要再看大眾物資當然對民眾來說他比較切身以及經常他要採購的譬如說外食的價格他是最有感的我想這個外食價格我想大家都覺得他事實上有在調漲部長"},{"start":431.843,"end":452.034,"text":"今晚未推動台灣個人投資儲蓄帳戶TISA就是投資帳戶這樣的政策今年上路因為沒有辦法爭取到財政部額外增加護稅的優惠所以彭主委表示政策轉個彎未來將採取"},{"start":455.816,"end":477.527,"text":"兩大的方式來推動一由業者提供國人投資的這些手續費優惠二整合既有的這些護稅優惠鼓勵個人先開TISA的這個帳戶那請問部長你認為像這樣的帳戶TISA的政策財政部有沒有義務來支持或配合"},{"start":478.991,"end":493.749,"text":"對於金管會他推動所謂的我們台式的TISA財政部當然是支持已經協助所以我們跟金管會也有多次的溝通對於我們現行有關的一些租稅優惠包括"},{"start":495.171,"end":520.633,"text":"資本利得免稅就大家知道那個證索稅我們目前是個人的證索稅是免納還有投資支息的投資支息就是股利的部分我們有二折一可以減稅以及在存款的部分的利息有27萬的一個特別扣除所以相關的現行的租稅優惠我們和其他國家所採行的一些租稅優惠我們比較起來其實我們比他們更優惠所以我們認為說第一個"},{"start":522.054,"end":534.243,"text":"對於現行有關的一個租稅優惠的措施要讓民眾知道那所以我們會提供相關的資訊以及做成一些比如說一些比較容易讓民眾可以了解的就是說現行的租稅優惠然後能夠加入這樣的TISA的開戶"},{"start":537.285,"end":564.446,"text":"這是我們現在跟金管會達成這樣的一個共識同時金管會就是認為說那如果這樣的話那除了租稅優惠以外除了其他比如說在手續費的部分的優惠這他們認為可以做一個提供的那這個部分所以我們跟金管會事實上是密切聯繫跟溝通我們當然也樂見這個TISA在台灣能夠推動實施那對於租稅優惠的部分現行的租稅優惠我們會盡量去宣導跟說明讓民眾可以了解"},{"start":565.236,"end":586.944,"text":"那個軍管會表示財政部會配合主動協助計算TISA賬戶投資收益的稅務那我請問部長這到底是不是軍管會吸引開戶政策的話術還是財政部真的會主動來協助參加這項政策的投資人的計算這個稅務的收益"},{"start":590.985,"end":616.743,"text":"財政部其實對於民眾相關的一些需求事實上都有提供相當便利的一些方式也可以協助做計算這個部分我們跟金管會都是有非常密切的溝通跟共識的最後一點那個部長有媒體報導沒有稅務優惠的TISA政策不會成功因為由國際上推動個人儲蓄帳戶的成功經驗來看"},{"start":621.285,"end":646.796,"text":"這個NISA以及美國的IRA帳戶等國家都是為推動政策特別設立額外的稅務誘因並明確說明這個稅務優惠帶來的資產累積效應所以說可吸引民間投資那基於金管會推動的TISA的主要目的是希望增進民間投資"},{"start":648.056,"end":664.593,"text":"落實這個普惠國人並增進國人資產管理的人力那請問部長財政部會不會重新評估TISA政策給予特定這個租稅優惠以落實普惠金融的美意會不會"},{"start":666.175,"end":689.669,"text":"對於這個金管會要推動的TISA我們其實把現行台灣所實施的租稅優惠跟日本的NISA還有其他國際間的相關的一個儲蓄投資這個帳戶我們他們的提供的租稅優惠我們都做過比較其實台版的TISA是目前來說是跟國際比較是最優惠的這樣喔好謝謝是謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158635","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158635","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5fd2fc734505d00961ad867d1dd5d1dbf6a11e77586d9faf359671ad967cd14905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:55:01 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我們現在介紹在場的這個官員我們金管會彭金榮主委金管會金融市場發展及創新處胡哲華處長法律事務處的李玉德理副處長國際業務處的賴明仙處長資訊服務處的林玉泰處長"},{"start":1978.499,"end":2007.351,"text":"秘書室的張吉富主任人事室的人民坤主任主計室的戴美英主任銀行局的林志吉副局長證券期貨局的張振山局長保險局的王立慧局長檢察局的童振章局長中央存款保險股份有限公司的黃天墨黃董事長"},{"start":2008.904,"end":2024.984,"text":"總經理是鄭明慧總經理行政院主計總署公務預算處的吳明修專委基金預算處的戴群芳戴專委那現在就是"},{"start":2027.148,"end":2049.831,"text":"本日會議安排繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會銀行局證券期貨局保險局檢察局收支部分即附屬單位預算有關營業部分中央存款保險股份有限公司及非營業部分金融監督管理基金保險業務發展基金因"},{"start":2050.612,"end":2059.617,"text":"均已詢答完畢現在進行預算提案處理請醫事人員宣讀今日審查預算案之審查項目及提案共197案預計宣讀時間35分鐘宣讀完畢後預計9點40進行協商請宣讀"},{"start":2071.738,"end":2089.631,"text":"一百一四年度中央政府總預算案金融監督管理委員會及所屬稅率部分第二款罰款及賠償收入第二一五項金融監督管理委員會無劣數第一幕賠償收入無劣數第三款規費收入第一七六項保險局無劣數第一幕使用規費收入無劣數第四款財產收入"},{"start":2090.492,"end":2097.057,"text":"第二五項金融監督管理委員會103萬4千元第一幕財產支息103萬4千元第二六項銀行局54萬2千元第一幕財產支息54萬元第二幕廢借物資售價2千元第二七項證件取貨局1萬元第一幕廢借物資售價1萬元"},{"start":2108.106,"end":2124.895,"text":"第二八項保險局十萬兩千元第一幕資產財產支息十萬兩千元第二幕廢借物資售價無劣數第二九項檢查局三十四萬一千元第一幕財產支息三十三萬一千元第二幕廢借物資售價一萬元第五款營業營業及失業收入第十二項"},{"start":2125.515,"end":2142.452,"text":"金融監督管理委員會8億554萬3千元第一幕非營業特種基金剩餘繳庫8億554萬3千元第七款其他收入第二四項金融監督管理委員會13萬7千元第一幕雜項收入13萬7千元第二五項銀行局22萬6千元第一幕雜項收入22萬6千元第二六項"},{"start":2145.555,"end":2165.013,"text":"證券期貨局166,000元地募雜項收入166,000元第二七項保險局127,000元地募雜項收入127,000元第二八項檢查局19,000元地募雜項收入19,000元金融監督管理委員會及所屬稅出部分第23款金融監督管理委員會主管"},{"start":2165.233,"end":2165.353,"text":"第一項"},{"start":2191.091,"end":2208.832,"text":"證券期貨局四億一千三百八十三萬八千元第一幕一般行政四億兩百三十九兩百三十九萬元第二幕證券期貨市場監理一千一百三十四萬八千元第三幕第一倍金十萬元第四項保險局一億七千七百零二萬五千元第一幕一般行政"},{"start":2209.252,"end":2232.856,"text":"一億七千零二十萬八千元第二幕保險監理六百七十萬七千元第三幕一般建築及設備無劣數第四幕第一億背金五萬元第五項檢查局五億一千九百九十二萬元第一幕一般行政四億八千九百五十四萬七千元第二幕金融機構檢查兩千九百六十七萬八千元第三幕一般建築及設備無劣數第四幕第一億背金六百九萬五千元"},{"start":2235.27,"end":2262.251,"text":"附屬單位預算營業部分有關中央存款保險股份有限公司一 業務計畫一 如有修正 除住民修正意見外應另加序 必依據營業收支 金融保險成本轉投資重大之建設事業及資金運用等向之審查結果隨同調整二 如無修正 應續名應依據營業收支 金融保險成本轉投資重大之建設事業及資金運用等向之審查結果隨同調整二 營業收支一 營業總收入"},{"start":2262.751,"end":2279.629,"text":"一百三十五億六千八百八十五萬八千元二營業總支出不含所得稅費用一百三十五億六千八百八十五萬八千元稅前金利零元三金融保險成本一如個別項目有修正除住民修正意見外另加序營業總支出應隨同調整"},{"start":2280.269,"end":2301.984,"text":"2.如個別項目修正及續名水桶營業總支出審查結果調整4.轉投資計畫無劣數5.重大之建設事業401萬元6.資金運用1.如有修正除住民修正意見外另加續並依據營業收支金融保險成本盈虧撥補轉投資及重大之建設事業等項之審查結果水桶調整"},{"start":2302.825,"end":2311.733,"text":"二、零雲修正因序名、因依據營業收支、基本保險成本、盈虧撥補、轉投資及重大之建設事業等向之審查結果,隨同調整"},{"start":2313.726,"end":2332.712,"text":"副營業部分有關特別收入基金金融監督管理基金EU計畫一如有修正除住民修正意見外應另加序並依據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整二如無修正依序名依依據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整二基金來源用途及優秀部分"},{"start":2333.372,"end":2338.699,"text":"1.基金來源 剩下9億6,921萬9千元2.基金用途 28億9,053萬8千元3.本期剩餘 10億7,868萬1千元3.結繳公庫 8億554萬3千元4.補辦預算 增加固定資產之建設改良擴充1,300萬元"},{"start":2354.54,"end":2381.394,"text":"有關信託基金保險業務發展基金一基金用計畫一如有修正除住民修正意見外因例加序並依據收支因虧撥補等項目審查結果隨動調整二如有修正依序名因依據收支於處撥補等項目審查結果隨動調整二總收入二零兩千零一十六萬六千元三總支出一億兩百零六萬四千元四本期短處八千一百八十九萬八千元"},{"start":2383.229,"end":2407.757,"text":"委員提案部分金融監督管理委員會共64案第一案新設金融市場發展與創新處辦公室裝修費凍結五分之一委員李英秀等三人提案第二案一般行政減利100萬元委員陳玉珍等三人提案第三案一般行政向下人事費凍結百分之五委員郭國文等三人提案第四案"},{"start":2409.468,"end":2437.593,"text":"基本行政工作維持向下業務費減列500萬元委員黃珊珊等三人提案第五案基本行政工作維持向下業務費凍結10%委員黃珊珊等三人提案第六案業務費凍結10%委員黃珊珊等三人提案第七案業務費凍結1%委員李坤成等三人提案第八案基本行政工作維持向下資訊服務費減列120萬元委員賴世保等三人提案第九案基本行政工作維持向下資訊服務費"},{"start":2440.295,"end":2451.351,"text":"凍結30萬元為顏寬恆等三人提案第十案基本行政工作額值向下物品凍結80萬元為顏寬恆等三人提案第十一案業務費向下國會聯繫暨新聞媒體業務等經費"},{"start":2456.551,"end":2483.861,"text":"減列15萬元為郭國榮等三人提案第十二案基本行政工作維持項下一般事務費凍結20%為顏寬衡等三人提案第十三案基本行政工作維持項下房屋建築養護費減列90萬元為耐世保等三人提案第十四案基本行政工作維持項下特別費凍結10%為耐混雲等三人提案第十五案基本行政工作維持項下設備及投資減列40萬元為王世堅等三人提案第十六案"},{"start":2485.361,"end":2505.815,"text":"設備及投資凍結10%委員郭國仁等三人提案第十七案設備及投資向下雜項設備費凍結10萬元委員賴慧玲等三人提案第十八案基本行政工作維持向下獎補助費凍結四萬兩千元委員郭國仁等三人提案第十九案金融監理凍結十分之一委員陳玉珍等三人提案第二十案"},{"start":2507.096,"end":2524.682,"text":"金融監督管理凍結十分之一委員李坤城等三人提案第二十一案金融監理凍結一百萬元委員賴慧元等三人提案第二十二案金融監理凍結一百萬元委員賴慧元等三人提案第二十三案金融監理凍結一百萬元委員賴慧元等三人提案"},{"start":2525.202,"end":2550.534,"text":"第十四案 金融監理凍結100萬元為賴會員等三人提案第十五案 金融監理凍結100萬元為賴會員等三人提案第十六案 金融監理凍結100萬元為賴會員等三人提案第十七案 金融監理凍結100萬元為賴會員等三人提案第十八案 金融監理凍結100萬元為賴會員等三人提案第十九案 金融監理凍結100萬元為賴會員等三人提案第十 三十案"},{"start":2551.877,"end":2566.739,"text":"金融監理向下金融監督管理凍結10%為顏寬恆等三人提案第31案金融監督管理凍結10%為王宏威等三人提案第32案金融監督管理凍結10%為王宏威等三人提案第33案"},{"start":2567.159,"end":2586.485,"text":"金融監督管理凍結100萬元為賴會員等三人提案第三十四案金融監督管理凍結3%為吳秉業等三人提案第三十五案金融監督管理向下業務費減月150萬元為黃珊珊等三人提案第三十六案業務費凍結20%為王世金等三人提案第三十七案"},{"start":2588.866,"end":2608.116,"text":"業務費凍結20%為吳立華等三人提案第三十八案金融金融管理向下業務費凍結10%為黃雙雙等三人提案第三十九案業務費凍結10%為黃雙雙等三人提案第四十案業務費凍結10%為黃雙雙等三人提案第四十一案業務費凍結10%為吳立華等三人提案第四十二案業務費凍結5%為郭國文等三人提案第四十三案"},{"start":2613.159,"end":2632.048,"text":"業務費向下通訊費 凍結100萬元為賴慧芸等三人提案 第44案業務費向下一般事務費減夜30萬元為王世金等三人提案 第45案業務費向下大陸地區旅費減夜8萬7千元為李映秀等三人提案 第46案"},{"start":2634.163,"end":2655.625,"text":"業務費向下國外禮費減略100萬元為李燕秀等三人提案第47案國外禮費減略80萬元為王世金等三人提案第48案資訊軟硬體設備費減略100萬元為李燕秀等三人提案第49案主決議未了解"},{"start":2657.472,"end":2674.22,"text":"未了解修法之對洗錢防治及打擊滋恐之成效NASP業者之法尊情形以及虛擬資產專法之研議及推動進度要求金管會提出書面報告為郭國文審判會等私人提案第五十案"},{"start":2675.14,"end":2696.002,"text":"金融監督管理委員會配合主管機關打詐行為,喊請金融機構積極加強宣導,並就1.13年打詐新司法施行後之配合判理成效,以及警示賬戶及限制賬戶之實施情況,進行逐月統計實施情形,銀行申出案件,及處理程序處理結果等,提出書面報告,委員過國人審判會等事人提案。"},{"start":2697.523,"end":2713.742,"text":"金融監督管理委員會應會同內政部警政署針對疑似不法或明顯異常交易研議雙向通報機制以發揮聯合防詐的功能降低被詐騙之風險並提出書面報告為農民財等三人提案第五十二案要求金融監督管理委員會應督導國內銀行業者加速導入"},{"start":2716.886,"end":2736.437,"text":"FIDO機制必保障民眾網路交易安全 降低被詐騙之風險並提出書面報告 文明財等三案提案第五三案 請金管會以強化增管虛擬資產業及融資租賃業提升銀行業增房與內控機制及控管銀行提供第三方支付業"},{"start":2738.078,"end":2755.766,"text":"虛擬帳號服務委員提出書面報告委員王志堅等三人提案第五次案請監管會就有關亞洲資產管理中心的計畫提出細部階段性政策規劃及預期辦理成果並就114年度有關亞洲資產管理中心預算規劃及執行情形提出說明並提出書面報告委員"},{"start":2756.926,"end":2775.937,"text":"郭國麟審判會等4人提案第55案請金管會於3個月內提出亞洲資產管理中心法規雙綁及修正書面報告委員李坤誠等3人提案第56案請金管會研議上次月公司應強制揭露永續資訊並設置永續委員會並提出書面報告委員王思堅等3人提案第57案我國際"},{"start":2777.515,"end":2803.689,"text":"至2017年4月28日實施當沖證交稅減半本次再度延長三年屆期後金管會不應再以活肉市場為由一再要求延長當沖稅減半措施避免租稅又會過度腐爛委員王洪輝等三領提案第58案請金管會最遲於114年3月底前提出修法版本維護債權人權益也需保障債務人最基本之生存權益委員王洪輝等三領提案第59案"},{"start":2804.79,"end":2819.25,"text":"金管會針對如何提升並落實金融資安政策及專業資深資安長之具體措施提出書面報告委員李坤成等三人提案第六十案請金管會積極鼓勵金融機構擴大辦理安養信託以及"},{"start":2820.111,"end":2845.402,"text":"其以防養老相關服務適時提高推廣誘因加強宣導高齡化金融商品服務並提出宣言報告委員李坤誠等三人提案第六十一案金融業應對提高保險業資金投資園鄉公共建設無論是長照機構或再生人員發展設施金管業皆應提出具體促進方式協助受險業資金回流投資園鄉公建委員吳立華等三人提案第六十二案金管會應發揮協助園鄉地區在綠色產業"},{"start":2848.504,"end":2865.905,"text":"籌措資金的功能,讓綠色壽星業務加惠更多原鄉地區,也比涵蓋更多原鄉產業,以利我國綠色產業發展及原鄉地區之產業創新,為吳立華等三領提案。第六三案,請經常會督導台灣證券交易所及財團法人、中華民國證券櫃台買賣中心,加強宣導"},{"start":2866.886,"end":2891.024,"text":"鼓勵上市貴公司參與原鄉碳匯ESG相關活動共同創造自然碳匯並助力企業實現自身ESG目標為伍利亞等三項提案第六施案建議金管會在原住民保留地貸款信用保證作業要點實施後應注意永續金融評鑑指標的評分公平性確保公民銀行在永續金融評鑑過程中能夠獲公平"},{"start":2891.804,"end":2904.392,"text":"對待委員吳立華等三人提案 營養局提案共三十七案第一案 一般行政檢列兩百萬元委員陳玉珍等三人提案 第二案一般行政向下人員維持人員維持中人事費"},{"start":2906.551,"end":2927.076,"text":"凍結500萬元 委員郭國文等三人提案第三案 基本行政工作而辭 凍結100萬元 委員賴慧芸等三人提案第四案 基本行政工作而辭 凍結100萬元 委員賴慧芸等三人提案第五案 基本行政工作而辭 向下業務費 凍結300萬元 委員黃雙雙等三人提案第六案 業務費凍結10% 委員黃雙雙等三人提案第七案 業務費凍結10% 委員黃雙雙等三人提案第八案"},{"start":2932.354,"end":2956.063,"text":"業務費凍結10% 委員黃昌山等三人提案 第九案業務費凍結10% 委員郭國文等三人提案 第十案基本行政工作維持向下 水電費減列五百五十萬元 委員賴世寶等三人提案 第十一案基本行政工作維持向下 資訊服務費減列六十萬元 委員賴世寶等三人提案 第十二案資訊服務費凍結五十萬元 委員顏寬恒等三人提案 第十三案"},{"start":2957.083,"end":2973.832,"text":"基本行政工作爲此向下一般事務費減月一百萬元為賴氏寶等三人提案第十四案基本行政工作爲此向下業務費之辦公場所環境綠能化等經費減月二十萬五千元為李燕秀等三人提案第十五案辦公場所環境綠能化等經費"},{"start":2977.033,"end":2993.936,"text":"凍結10萬元為顏寬恆等三人提案 第十六案 基本行政工作維持向下 設備及投資 凍結150萬元為顏郭國文等三人提案第十七案 銀行監理檢閱100萬元為顏寬恆等三人提案 第十八案 銀行監理凍結1%為顏陳玉珍等三人提案 第十九案 銀行監理凍結1%為顏陳玉珍等三人提案 第十二案 銀行監理凍結80萬元為顏寬恆等三人提案 第十一案 銀行監理凍結10%為顏"},{"start":3004.398,"end":3030.359,"text":"王宏威等三人提案 第二十二案銀行監理凍結百分之三人 吳秉內等三人提案第二十三案銀行監理向下業務費凍結百分之二十人 王世金等三人提案第二十四案業務費凍結百分之二十人 王世金等三人提案第二十五案業務費凍結百分之十人 黃珊珊等三人提案第二十六案業務費凍結百分之十人 黃珊珊等三人提案第二十七案業務費凍結百分之十人 郭國文等三人提案第二十八案"},{"start":3032.23,"end":3059.079,"text":"銀行監禮向下 國外參與國際金融會議理費減列100萬元 委員李燕燊等三人提案第29案 赴國外參與國際金融會議理費減列100萬元 委員李燕燊等三人提案第30案 業務費向下 國外理費減列70萬元 委員王思金等三人提案第31案 國外理費凍結100萬元 委員賴慧媛等三人提案第32案 國外理費凍結20% 委員顏寬安等三人提案"},{"start":3062.096,"end":3087.445,"text":"主決議 第三十三案請軍管會銀行局針對事辦優惠之法規命令涵審查標準等相關規範完成盤點另於事辦優惠半年結束後一個月內針對事辦優惠之監理情形以及事辦優惠之技術風險、法規風險、市場風險以及流動性風險相關檢討提出書面報告為郭國榮審發會等四人提案第三十四案 建議軍管會依"},{"start":3089.085,"end":3111.477,"text":"上開管理機構所提相關措施去行推動辦理研議妥適管理措施並提出書面報告委員林德福等三人提案第35案請金管會銀行局以如何強化銀行對融資租賃公司之代後追蹤避免流入不動產為題提出書面報告委員王思金等三人提案第36案請金管會銀行局檢討電子支付機構管理"},{"start":3112.578,"end":3134.638,"text":"並提出書面報告 委員顧問等三項提案第三項 產經分離向來由金管會所宣示之金融業經營原則以日前某金管公司具有控制性大股東投資上市超商一樣為例金管會對於其投資行為以及後續參與經營一事前後說明語言不詳顯現其日常監理工作及管理威信存在重大瑕疵 容有改進之必要"},{"start":3136.714,"end":3152.242,"text":"請提出書面報告委員郭國文等三人提案證券期貨局提案共三十五案第一案一般行政減略兩百萬元委員陳玉珍等三人提案第二案人員維持向下人事類凍結八百萬元委員郭國文等三人提案第三案"},{"start":3152.722,"end":3172.854,"text":"基本薪寸工作額持鄉下業務費減列400萬元 文黃珊珊等三人提案第四案 業務費凍結10% 文黃珊珊等三人提案第五案 業務費凍結10% 文黃珊珊等三人提案第六案 業務費凍結10% 文黃珊珊等三人提案第七案 業務費凍結10% 文郭國恩等三人提案第八案"},{"start":3174.951,"end":3196.003,"text":"業務費向下資訊服務費減列100萬元為王世金等三案提案第九案資訊服務費凍結44萬元為賴慧妍等三案提案第十案基本行政工作維持向下一般事務費減列50萬元為賴世寶等三案提案第十一案基本行政工作維持向下房屋建築養護費減列80萬元為賴世寶等三案提案第十二案"},{"start":3198.404,"end":3214.998,"text":"業務費向下 證券期貨大樓外牆修繕工程 減利150萬元 委員李燕秀等三案提案 第十三案基本行政工作額值向下 設備及投資凍結10% 委員郭國榮等三案提案 第十四案證券期貨市場監理 減利100萬元 委員陳玉珍等三案提案 第十五案"},{"start":3216.139,"end":3233.289,"text":"證券集貨市場監理凍結20%為因緣寬恆等三人提案第十六案證券集貨市場監理凍結15%為因緣寬恆等三人提案第十七案證券集貨市場監理凍結1%為因陳奕珍等三人提案第十八案證券集貨市場監理凍結3%為因吳秉諾等三人提案第十九案"},{"start":3233.789,"end":3246.599,"text":"政經企業市場監理向下業務費減月五十萬元委員黃珊珊等三人提案第二十案業務費凍結百分之二十委員王思金等三人提案第二十一案業務費凍結百分之十委員黃珊珊等三人提案第二十二案"},{"start":3248.187,"end":3267.434,"text":"業務費凍結10%委員黃珊珊等三人提案第二三案業務費凍結10%委員黃珊珊等三人提案第二四案業務費凍結10%委員郭國麟等三人提案第二十五案業務費凍結5%委員吳麗華等三人提案第二十六案業務費向下通訊費減六五十萬元委員王思堅等三人提案第二十七案"},{"start":3269.16,"end":3285.161,"text":"業務費向下大陸地區旅費凍結10萬元委員大會員等三人提案第28案業務費向下國外旅費減略200萬元委員王世興等三人提案第29案業務費向下赴國外參與國際金融會議旅費減略120萬元委員李燕秀等三人提案第30案"},{"start":3287.029,"end":3311.438,"text":"國外禮費凍結200萬元委員會委員等三人提案主決議第31案請金融監督管理委員會證券期貨局就虛擬資產業者洗錢防治聲明登記期間對於虛擬資產業者配合政府打造需要而未有完整統計資料且對虛擬資產業者配合打造之作為會有不明之檢討提出書面報告委員黃珊珊等三人提案第32案要求金管會針對推動虛擬資產監理之具體規劃及期程"},{"start":3313.979,"end":3330.058,"text":"提出書面報告 委員林德虎等三案提案第三十三案 請金管會政局原理如何加強公司治理之公平與公正性同時強化第三方認證之角色並提出書面報告 委員郭國文等三案提案第三十四案 請金管會政局原理如何擴大鼓勵"},{"start":3330.939,"end":3355.657,"text":"投信月經計畫制優惠措施並提出書面報告委員郭國文等三人提案第三十五案請金管會政局提升我國投信針對基金之內控並提高基金經理人必然之罰則後再進一步放寬相關管制並提出書面報告委員郭國文等三人提案保險局提案共十九案第一案一般行政檢定一百萬元委員陳玉珍等三人提案第二案"},{"start":3356.857,"end":3377.071,"text":"一般行政凍結20%委員李英秀等三人提案第三案基本行政工作人員時向下業務費檢列200萬元委員黃珊珊等三人提案第四案業務費凍結500萬元委員郭國文等三人提案第五案業務費凍結10%委員黃珊珊等三人提案第六案業務費凍結10%委員黃珊珊等三人提案第七案"},{"start":3378.218,"end":3394.199,"text":"業務費向下 教育訓練費 凍結十萬元 委員奈會員等三項提案 第八案基本行政工作維持向下 一般事務費 減略五十萬元 委員奈事保等三項提案 第九案基本行政工作維持向下 特別費 凍結十萬元 委員奈會員等三項提案 第十案"},{"start":3395.62,"end":3418.8,"text":"基本行政工作室向下設備及投資凍結10%為郭國文等三人提案 第十一案保險監理凍結3%為吳秉業等三人提案 第十二案保險監理向下業務費凍結20%為王思金等三人提案 第十三案業務費凍結10%為郭國文等三人提案 第十四案業務費向下交易訓練費減退10萬元為王思金等三人提案 第十五案"},{"start":3420.121,"end":3429.953,"text":"業務費向下國外旅費減月100萬元為王思堅等三人提案第十六案業務費向下赴國外參與國際金融會議旅費減月40萬元為李燕秀等三人提案"},{"start":3431.778,"end":3460.24,"text":"第十七案主決議請金管會保險局針對各項擴大保險業投資公共建設之成效予以定期盤點並加強跨部會溝通針對保險業擴大投資公共建設之資金流動及風險控管以及資本制度性是否受衝擊等各項因素提出具體相應之加強監理措施等並提出書面報告委員過國人審判會等私人提案第十八案請金管會保險局以強化各產險公司之永續保險推動介入並由利益"},{"start":3461.04,"end":3473.411,"text":"綠色保險商品之統計分類方式為題提出書面報告委員王思堅等三人提案第十九案請金管會保險局加速提出保險法修法草案並提出書面報告委員郭國文等三人提案警察局"},{"start":3475.063,"end":3499.374,"text":"預算提案共二十一案第一案一般行政減六兩百萬元委員陳玉珍等三人提案第二案人員維持向下人事會凍結八百萬元委員郭國文等三人提案第三案基本行政工作維持向下業務費減六五百萬元委員黃珊珊等三人提案第四案業務費凍結百分之十委員郭國文等三人提案第五案基本行政工作維持向下資訊服務費減六五十萬元委員賴世保等三人提案第二案"},{"start":3501.552,"end":3529.342,"text":"業務費向下資訊服務費凍結25%為原款等三人提案 第七案基本行政工作人員向下一班事務費減列50萬元為賴事保等三人提案 第八案金融機構檢查減列300萬元為陳玉珍等三人提案 第九案金融機構檢查凍結11%為陳玉珍等三人提案 第十案金融機構檢查凍結100萬元為賴會員等三人提案 第十一案金融機構檢查凍結100萬元為賴會員等三人提案 第十二案"},{"start":3530.262,"end":3558.834,"text":"金融机构检查向下业务费冻结20%为严宽衡等三案提案第十三案业务费冻结15%为郭国文等三案提案第十四案金融机构业务费冻结10%为黄生山等三案提案第十五案业务费向下国内旅费冻结450万元为赖会员等三案提案第十六案国内旅费冻结20%为严宽衡等三案提案第十七案业务费向下大陆地区旅费冻结20%为严宽衡等三案提案第十八案"},{"start":3559.895,"end":3563.8,"text":"業務費向下國外禮費凍結20% 文言寬容等三項提案 第十九案"},{"start":3565.663,"end":3594.385,"text":"1月份上下派員出國計劃檢閱120萬元委員李燕秀等三項提案第20案主決議請檢察局針對兩項CEO相關之精簡措施調整或修正作為提出書面報告委員郭國文審判會等三項提案第21案將金融機構承作不動產授信業務列為檢查重點請檢察局針對相關強化措施及做法提出書面報告委員林德福等三項提案中央存款保險公司提案共五案第1案"},{"start":3596.159,"end":3620.077,"text":"營業收入向下 金融保險收入增列1億元為5比1等3人提案第二案 金融保險收入向下 利息收入增列5000萬元為賴世保等3人提案第三案 金融保險收入向下 保費收入增列2億元為賴世保等3人提案第四案 營業服務向下 管理費用減列300萬元為賴世保等3人提案"},{"start":3621.258,"end":3641.925,"text":"第五案 處決於中央存檔保險股份有限公司因緣女如何在經濟數位設備建置升級以強化資金運用績效及風險預警為無比例等三項提案金融監督管理基金提案共十四案第一案金融監督管理收入增略一千萬元為耐斯保等三項提案第二案"},{"start":3644.164,"end":3666.596,"text":"推動保護金融消費者權益計劃 檢列200萬元為王航運等三案提案 第三案推動金融保險金融消費者權益計劃 檢列100萬元為陳一貞等三案提案 第四案推動保護金融消費者權益計劃向下一般服務費 檢列300萬元為耐斯堡等三案提案 第五案"},{"start":3668.103,"end":3689.639,"text":"推動保護金融消費者權益計畫向下媒體及政策及業務宣導費凍結十分之一委員李坤正等三人提案第六案推動金融制度輕總金融商品之研究及發展計畫減列五百萬元委員陳玉珍等三人提案第七案推動金融制度輕總金融商品之研究及發展計畫向下服務費用"},{"start":3690.84,"end":3710.826,"text":"檢列500萬元 凍結500萬元 委員郭國倫等三案提案 第八案推動金融制度 新種金融商品之研究及推展計畫 凍結1% 委員吳秉諭等三案提案第九案 推動金融制度 新種金融商品之研究及發展向下服務費用 檢列800萬元 委員賴思寶等三案提案 第十案"},{"start":3712.046,"end":3730.441,"text":"推動金融資助新種金融商品之研究及發展計畫向下補協助政府機關購減劣200萬元為耐斯堡等三項提案第十一案推動金融資助新種金融商品之研究及發展向下捐助國內團體減劣250萬元為耐斯堡等三項提案"},{"start":3731.877,"end":3756.268,"text":"主決於第十案請金融監督管理委員會就我國學生涉及國安單位成員及涉及國安單位成員之金融素養調查及提升計畫提出書面報告委員黃珊珊等三人提案第十三案請金融監督管理委員會就加強推動P2P平台監管措施及輔導整理P2P公會落實自律規範之推動進度提出書面報告委員黃珊珊等三人提案第十四案"},{"start":3757.669,"end":3782.227,"text":"請金融監督管理基金研擬如何將金融知識融入我國義務教育學程並加強國人之金融素養之培訓並提出書面報告委員郭國恩等三人提案保險業務發展基金提案共兩案第一案專案支出檢疫100萬元委員陳玉珍等三人提案第二案主決議請金融監督管理委員會就保單強制執行制度經濟制立法計劃及舉辦修法意見收集會議記錄"},{"start":3785.61,"end":3788.4,"text":"提出書面報告為黃珊珊等三項提案宣布完畢"},{"start":3961.169,"end":3962.917,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":4110.213,"end":4114.206,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":4205.287,"end":4232.674,"text":"好 我們有三位委員 我們開始協商那天行答過了你說等一下 行答等一下我們先把這個處理掉按照部會來好 我們這個197案我們從第一案開始基本上我們因為很多提案 197個案子很多委員 就是我們的這個就是部會有跟委員做溝通所以我們基本上尊重跟委員跟部會溝通的結果不管他是變成"},{"start":4233.234,"end":4249.701,"text":"主決議或是改動然後就不再併案動我們就一案一案下去那沒有溝通成功的在這邊現場溝通我們從第一案開始第一案改成這個凍結案一般行政70萬加書面第二案改組決議提書面報告"},{"start":4254.389,"end":4278.319,"text":"好 第三案改組決議 改組決議好 第四案測案 測案第五案 第六案並動一般行政業務費的百分之十加三個月的書面報告我就一直唸下去 有問題要提出來以第五案為主我唸下去有問題要大家提出來好 第六案並第五案處理好 遵照辦理第七案是遵照辦理啦第八案"},{"start":4282.23,"end":4309.208,"text":"第七案是李昆仁委員對 我在這裡在唸啊 對 第七案對 第七案 你的李委員 來 李昆仁委員溝通完畢了 第八案改組決議第七案是喔 這第三 對不起 第七案是李昆仁委員 OK沒意見啦 第七案沒意見嘛 OK啦好 第八案 賴委員喔 第八案還沒有溝通來 第八案就賴委員 賴世保委員的 三檢"},{"start":4311.154,"end":4321.98,"text":"資訊服務費這個資訊服務費都是給外面的啦都不是你們自己用的啦除了這個這個你拼了這麼多用麥克風講話用麥克風講話才有辦法記錄增加43萬那我們就減30萬吧"},{"start":4338.725,"end":4364.863,"text":"客戶自行調整資訊費基本行政費 客戶自行調整好 第九案改組決議第十案改組決議十一案 十一案郭委員 郭國文委員沒有來這還沒有 還沒有溝通完成對吧好 那十一案等一下回頭 因為他還沒到十二案改組決議十三案是賴世保委員的 這個房屋建築養護費三減"},{"start":4370.156,"end":4384.121,"text":"90萬要說明一下嗎 金管會說明一下嗎不要說明了40萬了3減40萬了科目自行調整了科目自行調整基本行政工作向下3減40萬科目自行調整14案改組決議15案16案併案3減設備及投資5萬元"},{"start":4393.664,"end":4406.416,"text":"好 溝通完畢了15、16案一併的那這個15案我們是科目可以自行調整好 科目自行調整了好 17案改組決議18案改組決議是17案那改書面啦 書面嘛"},{"start":4415.003,"end":4427.712,"text":"文字修正 主決議就是書面報告 提出書面報告多久呢 3個月內提書面報告動之的喔文字修正 17案的文字修正 主決議18案改主決議 19案改主決議提書面報告 20案"},{"start":4438.749,"end":4462.091,"text":"二十一案改組決議二十一案沒問題文字修正後改組決議三個月內提出書面報告這是二十一案二十的話賴慧雲李坤正委員的那個洞結束"},{"start":4467.004,"end":4477.471,"text":"十分之一啊 你們不是溝通過了嗎 有問題嗎李坤貞委員在現場 可不可以改動5%主委用麥克風 請使用麥克風不然沒辦法記錄"},{"start":4482.173,"end":4490.298,"text":"21 改組決議22 改組決議23 改組決議24 改組決議25 改組決議26 改組決議27 改組決議28 改組決議29 改組決"},{"start":4509.671,"end":4530.529,"text":"三十案齁 林寬委員的 他是凍結百分之五齁 加兩個月的書面報告對 專改書面 已經同意那個會花掉 對好 三十一案 欸 洪威委員的 這個沒有溝通是不是那這個等一下齁 好 三十一要保留 剛剛十一跟三一嘛 好 來"},{"start":4532.492,"end":4548.523,"text":"那個30案改組決議,33案改組決議,對,都是順便喔34案溝通完成了,順照辦理了35案撤案,36案王世堅委員的,有溝通嗎"},{"start":4549.679,"end":4553.622,"text":"37案改動金融監管業務費50萬元38案3839併案動金融監理業務費5%加3個月內的書面報告以38案為主39案也是跟38案併案"},{"start":4577.822,"end":4580.343,"text":"40案改組決議,41案40案併動50萬元,以41案為主喔40案就併入41喔,43改組決議44案改組決議喔對,文字都改過了45案改組決議46案,簡略的喔"},{"start":4606.727,"end":4635.135,"text":"簡列10萬元金融監理科目自行調整47案我看一下國外禮費的部分王思堅文改動節一般國外禮費國外禮費可能就保留因為都是院會統三到時候都會統三要改動業務費嗎"},{"start":4638.241,"end":4648.944,"text":"不用啦 到時候又會統一處理先不一處理因為那個到時候 到了那個協商分都會統三這個理費部分不一處理48 改動40萬書面49 按遵照主決議拿麥克風一下"},{"start":4659.991,"end":4660.652,"text":"文字修正 提書面報告書面報告 好"},{"start":4687.393,"end":4709.503,"text":"64正在辦理好下面這個單位結束剛剛這個是下面是銀行局銀行局我在財政委員會酒樓金管會的現在去銀行局從那個銀行局有37個案子來銀行局那有三個等一下回來因為他們委員還不在郭國文回來了"},{"start":4711.348,"end":4716.742,"text":"等一下我們把練完練那個齁等一下我們把他練完以後保留的等一下回頭因為剛剛不在齁"},{"start":4718.951,"end":4748.574,"text":"好 第八案是簡列30萬基本行政工作維持然後科目執行調整好 接著我們銀行局的第一案那個銀行局副局長拿麥克風來改組決議第二案是凍結你們看一下對不對凍結一般行政50萬第三 對嗎第三案改組決議第四案改組決議第五案撤案第六案第七案 第八案並動5%以第六案為主"},{"start":4749.478,"end":4755.28,"text":"第9案動一般行政100萬元第10案簡列基本行政工作維持費30萬那科目進行調整沒問題11案"},{"start":4771.704,"end":4783.071,"text":"剪裂基本行政公會30萬元 科目執行調整12案 剪裂 凍結一般行政10萬元13案 剪裂基本行政費用60萬元這個等一下 這個費用比較多啦"},{"start":4798.699,"end":4821.346,"text":"這個減列八十萬好不好減列八十萬元對 科不住行投手檸檬局是 所以這個因為因為我們大樓管理的需求因為自從去年搬遷以後那個面積有增加一點那所以因此編列費用多了一點是因為它增加一千六我才減你八十萬而已啦"},{"start":4822.116,"end":4847.143,"text":"你那個辦公室是不是在這個板橋車站樓上那大樓是台鐵的吧台鐵有跟你增加這個管理費用跟增加那個嗎增加這麼多嗎是沒有可是因為他是對應使用面積啊對啊你使用面積增加了多少使用面積大概增加應該有200坪左右增加200坪所以就增幅要高達46%有這麼多嗎"},{"start":4853.905,"end":4875.717,"text":"你原面積多少 現在面積變多少我知道 你跟我姐說過 電梯啦今年要加一些費用要換新電梯因為那個大樓已經20幾年了那推翻電梯應該是所有的大樓的使用者都要共同付費不是只有銀行局那為什麼金管會不用金管會也有 銀行局也有 都有"},{"start":4877.978,"end":4897.291,"text":"說明一下嘛 說明清楚一點跟委員報告那我們金管會在板橋大樓裡面的管理費部分喔那在去年就已經開始編列五年的費用那按昨年 按照我們的實際施工來支付那因為銀行局原來他只有在七樓八樓"},{"start":4899.993,"end":4925.016,"text":"19樓到22樓的時候他增加了面積所以那個部分當初是沒有便利的所以他現在普遍所以他增加了費用因為包括電梯對啦我們了解我們都同意我們只是問你說那你增加了多少比例為什麼關聯費用增加46我意思就是台鐵他變公司之後又大幅給你漲價是不是這個意思我是想要了解這個啦這沒有沒有漲價這是按照那個比例再增加"},{"start":4925.876,"end":4943.663,"text":"因為我們那個樓層從7樓8樓搬到19到22那也因為這樣子樓層較高,也增加了一些煙的探測器所以也增加了一些費用好啦,那80萬應該還好多20萬也還好,夠用啦,夠用那個管理公司跟他們那個台鐵公司跟他們收工少"},{"start":4951.042,"end":4975.523,"text":"對啦 可是增加46%欸 增加一千多萬欸增加一千多萬我才給你砍八十而已夠用啦 夠用啦 可不可以自己調整啦自己調整 夠用啦夠啦 夠啦差二十萬而已 好啦 不然就七十七十 七十啦 七十齁一個本來六十啦"},{"start":4978.252,"end":4982.055,"text":"第14案改組決議第15案改組決議第16案凍結一般行政50萬元第17案改組決議第18案改組決議第19案改組決議第20案改凍50萬元加書面"},{"start":5006.212,"end":5031.033,"text":"金同意劃掉了齁 幫你劃掉齁方老主席 這個剛剛16案啊 因為郭委員有同意要併案喔 郭委員同意併案是不是可以併第二案併第二案是一樣的嗎 一般行政是不是好 郭委員可以喔 併第二案喔郭委員這個部分主要還是在做軟件的排除檢討 你只要做得到我就併案沒有問題啊"},{"start":5033.257,"end":5058.448,"text":"沒問題喔好OK好來就併第二案第二第十六併案處理以第二案為主好那現在列到二十改動五十加速面二十一組決議你們都溝通得很好嘛我覺得有有剛剛有說了好改組決議二十一遵照辦理"},{"start":5059.215,"end":5060.316,"text":"22遵照辦理21該組決沒問題22遵照辦理對 22遵照辦理23勒"},{"start":5069.264,"end":5092.954,"text":"王世堅委員不在沒有溝通度沒有功成功是吧好我們先保留一下對那這個案子也跟24跟30都有關是不是可以到30跟他都不在23 24 30我們先保留沒有在委員的然後我們往下用這麼多人在那再回頭來看他們的案子好24那不在我們就保留一下來2525不是25不是25黃珊珊的來25跟27合併改動35萬以第25五案為主好"},{"start":5099.363,"end":5105.707,"text":"第25萬保留保留保留保留保留保留保留保留保留保留保留保留"},{"start":5115.541,"end":5129.956,"text":"好請說二十四案這個業務會我想我們是不是再討論一下二十四 二十四案還沒有討論 藝望世界還沒有來就委員還沒有 提案委員沒有到我們先把它保留一下 等一下會回頭來那如果他今天等一下另外他沒來我們就討論了就對對對"},{"start":5133.118,"end":5143.802,"text":"對對對 我們先 有來的委員先表達一下 沒來我們先把他我們就自己處理了我們先尊重他一下 等一下他自己應該要來的來剛念到25了齁 2627都併了嘛 27併案 24改組決議以25萬為準27併20 25萬25跟27一起嘛"},{"start":5159.298,"end":5180.064,"text":"二十七併入二十五案然後二十四案是組決議二十七併二十五案以二十五案為主有沒有問題你說二十七併二十喔併二五吧二五和二七啊所以你們寫的性質一樣的"},{"start":5182.887,"end":5189.724,"text":"二十五是我的二十五不是你的二十五是王珊珊的好接二十八"},{"start":5193.327,"end":5199.85,"text":"26是改組決議 剛剛說過了28案改組決議29案是簡列銀行監理5萬元加科目資金調整30案這個已經溝通好了嗎 凍結10%加書面報告就是跟前面的23 24那為什麼這裡有寫那也是王世堅的 這個先保留一下 王委員"},{"start":5218.112,"end":5245.057,"text":"沒有他這個案子有溝通過了前面幾個案子沒溝通過嘛2324沒有溝通等一下等一下喔來來這個是國外旅費齁我們這案子先保留來等一下討論好了沒關係他現在要改動業務費啦所以他要併24案喔那24案我看他沒有溝通啊"},{"start":5246.876,"end":5251.058,"text":"三十一案改組決議三十二案改動銀行監理十萬元業務費十萬元加書面報告三十三案來"},{"start":5262.23,"end":5281.598,"text":"尊照判理尊照判理 34案尊照判理 35案尊照判理 36案尊照判理好 37案改組決議好 文字修正那個37案的部分我想儘管好 請那個郭文那要盡可能的避免類似的情勢在答詢的時候所講跟事後所發生的事情"},{"start":5282.438,"end":5302.558,"text":"那完全都變了掉,然後還替一些銀行單位來做一些推託或支持,我會盡可能避免這種事情另外我補充說一下36的部分,門檻的部分20降到10,因為最近的洗錢案,第三方支付實在太嚴重"},{"start":5304.42,"end":5310.584,"text":"請金管會多費心一點我統計起來不過是7家而已把電子支付的門檻降為10億的部分補充說明一下產經分離部分我們正在檢討"},{"start":5319.77,"end":5343.08,"text":"那個過程就是我們要把它釐清因為過去在這個這個名詞上不是那麼清晰所以我們現在會在法規上面做個整理上次也有在委員會上也有針對有關相關比如包括未來併購這些東西我們都會一併去處理有需要啦不然後來這種情勢一旦發生整個不好啦那至於說剛剛那個門檻的事情我們也會一併來研究看看"},{"start":5344.935,"end":5370.008,"text":"好 謝謝雲湯局省局 剩下保留的幾個案子現在政企局 來 政企局第一案改組決議第二案 凍結一般行政70萬元第三案 撤案第三案 撤案第四案第四 第六 併動200萬元 以第四案為主沒問題喔好 第五案改組決議"},{"start":5373.114,"end":5398.268,"text":"第六案就是併第四案第七案一般行政70萬元 凍結一般行政70萬元第八案改組決議 第九案改組決議第十案檢列基本行政工作維持費用30萬元加科目資金調整 沒問題第十一案檢列房屋建築養晦30萬元"},{"start":5402.772,"end":5408.8,"text":"這個編了一千九千 編了七百多才三十萬這裡面加二十萬了好不好五十萬了 減六五十萬元了"},{"start":5411.596,"end":5436.09,"text":"客戶自行調整 正規局的百分之三十好不好因為我覺得可以調整百分之三十的方式問比喻的方式 因為提這三五十這樣太容易太重了前面七百九就三十就一千九嘛好啦 三十和五十因為我們今年要做三面牆那個是一起做的不能說做一半好 三十萬"},{"start":5438.789,"end":5465.178,"text":"客戶 客戶進行調整好來第十二案改動一般行政八十萬兩個月給書面報告他寫一般行政呢十二 證據十二期他說一般行政下面的證券期或大樓外牆修繕工程第十三案動一般行政的六十萬"},{"start":5467.662,"end":5495.227,"text":"第十四案改組決議第十五案改動百分之十沒問題了十六案改組決議十七案改組決議十八案遵照辦理十八案遵照辦理對遵照辦理好十九案撤案撤案二十案改組決議好二十一案遵照辦理好二十二案改動五十萬"},{"start":5499.153,"end":5509.885,"text":"23案也是凍結50萬元還要書面報告這是跟23案一起的一起凍50萬就是22案跟23案23了"},{"start":5514.031,"end":5530.573,"text":"沒有要併了好24、25案是併案東向10萬24案我再強調一下好24因為之前討論到KY股康有的事件之對台灣的整個金融市場影響很大的信心那時候主委還沒有來可能主委應該也清楚"},{"start":5531.153,"end":5543.343,"text":"那時候疫情期間大家對KY股的不透明性因為沒有辦法前往中央股去進行了解那現在接下來又有包括川普的因素在內我想請那個政企局多費一點心對KY股的部分可能會造成的衝擊來做一個因應跟了解24、25已經併案了以第25以25萬為主"},{"start":5559.474,"end":5561.196,"text":"二十六案 檢列十萬元"},{"start":5566.505,"end":5574.11,"text":"業務的費用科目諮詢調整 諮詢調整好 謝謝27案是主決議28案張委員我的25是病的跟27吳立華的20幾萬 25萬的沒有 是跟20幾病的24 25一起 24 25病所以是動5是不是動30萬 動結30萬以25萬為主 書面報告對 有好"},{"start":5597.543,"end":5619.181,"text":"二十七十組決議 二十八 這個等一下喔 這是國外理會 到時候先不予處理二十九案 簡列證券期貨市場監理 五萬加科目執行調整 沒問題囉三十案改組決議 三十一案來 遵照辦理囉"},{"start":5620.455,"end":5647.969,"text":"好 三十二案 尊照辦理好 都改 主決議了 三十三 三十 等一下等一下三十二 三十三咧 主決議對 尊照辦理了好 三十四尊照辦理了 三十五案是主決議好 三十五個案子了 好尊照辦理 對 主決議好 接著保險局都還有一兩個保留案子 因為王事件委員還沒有到我們等他一下 如果沒有我們就會處理"},{"start":5650.387,"end":5672.087,"text":"保險局來大家看保險局第一案改組決議第二案跟第十案合併改動五十萬元加書面報告以第二案為主沒問題吧第三案撤案第四五案併動五十萬元以第五案為主第五案就第三一併了"},{"start":5675.509,"end":5688.007,"text":"可是第四五案他是寫定六十還是五十六十是六十是六十萬好那就第四五案是併動六十喔好第六案改組決議第七案改組決議"},{"start":5690.967,"end":5702.117,"text":"第八案 賴委員的 簡略基本行政工作維持費二十萬元 項目執行調整這一千萬 乾脆撿五十萬 你們要計較 項目執行調整要不要計較到二十萬沒問題啦 撿五十萬沒問題啦我計較這個啦 項目執調啦五十萬喔"},{"start":5712.879,"end":5720.664,"text":"有跟委員辦會沒有跟我講 主任心太軟了以後叫他心不要那麼軟了給20萬 1000萬才撿個20萬 你看要怎麼撿的而且科目進行調整"},{"start":5739.334,"end":5768.246,"text":"然後這些大樓管理費大樓管理費的部分就562萬雖然這部分我們確實是要支付給我們那棟大樓而且它114年例行的那個基電維護以外還有三項專案的汰換包括那個電梯你後面那個355減掉了355減掉了35萬了報告委員這個我們每年執行率都不夠都透支了如果你這樣子我就去表決你再講我就去表決"},{"start":5769.622,"end":5777.387,"text":"35萬了35萬差15萬你自己調整就沒得了可以啦可以啦有啦有夠啦夠用差不多了差15萬可以往上面那個科目一般行政啦大概我們20萬的範圍"},{"start":5796.769,"end":5797.61,"text":"基本行政工作維持"},{"start":5817.005,"end":5842.415,"text":"355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355355"},{"start":5845.463,"end":5861.867,"text":"王委員不在我們先幫他保留一下14案第14案我們保留一下12也是王思堅王思堅沒有來說我們先保留一下我們回頭如果他沒有來我們就會討論了11案不是病12案了嗎他以我為主"},{"start":5868.095,"end":5894.657,"text":"十一跟十三啦你是十一跟十三啦 十二案先保留十三並入十一案 以十一案為主十二案保留十四案 王他沒有來 十四十五先保留一下十五也是國外理會 十五是國外理會先不予處理十六案檢列保險監理五萬元加科目自行調整十七案遵照 主決議啦"},{"start":5896.101,"end":5900.005,"text":"第一案改組決議第二案一般行政凍結五十萬加兩個月的書院報告第三案撤案第四案一般行政"},{"start":5922.472,"end":5942.628,"text":"五十萬凍結五十萬加兩個月的給書院報告第四案第五案簡略基本行政工作維持費二十萬元加科目之行調整這個資訊服務費都是本人利用的都不是你們在用的啊你們有跟委員報告這個是用電腦機和軟體授權費的更新那有跟委員辦公室這邊有充分的報告對啦但是這個減二十太少啦"},{"start":5943.388,"end":5968.49,"text":"因為那天有跟委員辦公室報告我知道啦你沒有跟我講啊是那這個束縛我們會再加強溝通不好意思因為這個最主要是電腦那個集合軟體的授權那就是說我們去對金融機構做進行相關的金融檢查的時候那個這個電腦集合軟體如果沒有授權的話這個都不是你們在用的嘛這個都是給外面廠商在用的這個是給集合同仁用的對啊就給外面廠商在用的這個是我們買"},{"start":5969.511,"end":5983.099,"text":"那個耳朵很大啦 空間很大啦電腦軟體應該比較麻煩是我們的集合人員在經典節目製作我們這個軟體要做的這個有說明清楚的是是好啦 二十萬了不好意思不好意思"},{"start":5985.2,"end":6004.674,"text":"他是檢察局他們的這個軟體去檢查人家金融機構的東西跟軟體要連接啦所以這個更新跟防堵什麼這些軟體都非常重要對啦這個都重要但是如果有輸出的話那會引起很大的火花一毛錢都不能砍如果這個事情都重要那一毛錢都不能砍很少一點嘛他剛剛同意砍20萬啦沒有說不能砍啦"},{"start":6010.578,"end":6017.248,"text":"以後這個我主要要標準要提高啦心太軟了 隨便給你弄一弄一下20萬就簽掉了"},{"start":6024.924,"end":6046.725,"text":"是 這個我們會再加強我心裡也很不舒服 因為兩千萬才減二十萬那是要怎樣一千萬啦 一千萬啦兩千多萬減二十萬是要怎麼說啦沒有啦 他一千零四十六萬而已啊我想第七案啦喔好 第五案就是二十萬了好 接著第六案 主決議好 第七案 第七案 第七案"},{"start":6048.24,"end":6076.03,"text":"第七案加十萬塊吧 減列三十萬吧這個可以啦 一般行政這個比較有科目進行調整科目進行調整 這一般就基本行政工作維持這個減列三十萬啦好第八案改組決議 第九案改組決議第十案改組決議 十一案改組決議十一 十二是併案的 改動一百萬"},{"start":6078.395,"end":6080.017,"text":"十四案改組決議十五案改組決議十六案改組決議十七案改組決議"},{"start":6100.554,"end":6126.125,"text":"18 改動金融機構檢查業務費50萬加素面報告19 簡列金融機構檢查5萬加科目自行調整20 遵照辦理21 遵照辦理好接著下去中央存款保險公司有五個案子第一案 測案主委總市長在這邊麥克風給總市長"},{"start":6129.278,"end":6148.292,"text":"好 第一案撤案第二案增加利息收入兩千萬沒問題嗎尊照辦理尊照辦理第三案增加保費收入五千萬尊照辦理第四案"},{"start":6149.741,"end":6152.602,"text":"所有的前面提案收支調整會議記錄增加其加序"},{"start":6170.971,"end":6171.731,"text":"整個要跟著調整"},{"start":6184.759,"end":6185.219,"text":"接著金融監督管理基金14個案子"},{"start":6218.181,"end":6225.844,"text":"推動保護金融消費者權益計畫減劣100萬元第三案改組決議第四案減劣一般服務費100萬元第五案遵照辦理"},{"start":6243.496,"end":6263.424,"text":"第六案改組決議第七案和第九案可以並案處理是嗎等一下 先第七案第七案是檢列檢列五百萬又凍結五百萬郭董委員您的案子有先溝通就檢列兩百萬不凍不凍結檢列兩百萬好"},{"start":6269.744,"end":6275.331,"text":"這案現在檢列200萬第八案是遵照辦理第九案是檢列800萬一樣的項目檢列100萬第九案是100萬是不是"},{"start":6288.17,"end":6308.697,"text":"郭文維那個是兩百萬那就是三百萬一個兩百一個一百那就減列三百 還是要併啊減列三百吧有要併嗎一個兩百一個一百啊那就兩百啊兩百啊 一樣嗎有一樣嗎 服務費用"},{"start":6314.787,"end":6316.228,"text":"其實他們兩個本來寫的也是一樣的"},{"start":6339.286,"end":6356.414,"text":"這兩個不太一樣耶都是金融制度啊金融制度啊 我覺得金融制度不一樣啦服務非常 第七案 第九案都檢列的項目是一樣的但是你們客戶自行調整嘛客戶給你調整那就檢列兩百萬等一下 等一下"},{"start":6357.995,"end":6375.56,"text":"第七項 金融制度 金融生平第九項 也是金融制度 金融生產都是對 六千五百多萬里頭的 其實還好啦 兩百萬可以啦好 我重新宣告 第七項 第九案就併案啦 減列兩百萬啦服務費用兩百萬"},{"start":6380.928,"end":6406.318,"text":"就在計劃向下讓你們不是減服務費用是減那個推動金融制度新金融商品來來來 減劣推動金融制度新種金融商品之研究及發展計劃減劣兩百萬第七第九案 並案好 第十案減劣也是兩百吧 還好吧減劣一百萬一百 溝通了嗎減劣一百萬好 有溝通過了"},{"start":6408.923,"end":6429.04,"text":"檢列補助政府機構這個一百萬好第十一案是三檢補助國內團體捐助國內團體一百萬 第十一案這一個部分 第十一案可不可以檢在那個計畫那個部分就不用指定不要不要不要 就這樣指定他就要補充的"},{"start":6432.054,"end":6448.463,"text":"我說他總共很多,兩千多萬,兩千九所以可以啦,可以啦,成長百分之五十,很多了啦可以了啦,對第十案,遵照辦理,十三案遵照辦理,十四案遵照辦理好,保險業務發展基金這基金都這麼多錢,簡略兩百萬很少啊"},{"start":6451.346,"end":6471.785,"text":"第一案改組決議第二案遵照辦理好我們接著就是討論剛剛保留的案子大部分是王世堅委員的提案他沒有來我們就要注意了來我們從這一案開始金管會的第十案郭委員的案子郭委員剛剛比較晚到但是來第十案"},{"start":6473.387,"end":6491.122,"text":"這個貴賓這個是因為之前我們有跟那個金管會一些新聞聯絡的部分說出應該先行答覆都未行答覆而變成先行公告所以這部分我是象徵性的要檢列好你要檢列多少錢不用輸五萬 等下五萬就好了檢列五萬元 沒問題"},{"start":6493.644,"end":6519.115,"text":"簡略業務費五萬元就做提醒以後要這樣避免類似的情勢的產生是謝謝我們會注意這部分好業務費五萬元那個科目自行調整給你們調整好謝謝OK那這一案處理好十一案處理好接著是不是安王事件人都沒有有嗎郭委員那個十一案科目可以自行調整嗎郭國環可以啦"},{"start":6521.225,"end":6540.959,"text":"31案是王宏偉提案,我來看一下他是凍結10%也很少啊,這有什麼問題嗎沒有問題啦他提專案報告啦,寶哥有什麼意見王偉來了,對不起,王偉來了31案,我只是凍結啊,然後你們提出專案報告啊"},{"start":6558.086,"end":6562.37,"text":"這個主委啊 你的口才這麼好啦 人家也沿途 你就來一下啦因為這個題目重要啦"},{"start":6568.996,"end":6596.071,"text":"沒關係啦 這個東西就來專門報告未來都還會聯名到有相關的嘛這來報告嘛 這很重要的題目政治說明沒有關係假設還在案子的審查當中這比較不適合啦那我想說假設你節儉的 你不要寫專門的案子啊這已經是明確的他已經明確的講了那個案子好 那個吳委員等一下 吳委員吳委員先不能這樣子"},{"start":6600.112,"end":6620.911,"text":"我先講好不好 我講一下我的觀點啦如果認為這個案子重要下個會期的召委因為兩黨都有就拜託那個召委排專案報告你就得來報告了而不是用這個這樣子的方式要經專案報告同意之後還動之就是硬規定要綁進去啦"},{"start":6621.738,"end":6649.355,"text":"就是變成非要開會不可下個會期或下下會期非開會不可那不然你這就不能動之我是覺得說既然我們兩黨都有召委如果覺得這個狀況重要下個會期都可以拜託召委排嘛那召委排就不會有這樣子的沒有今天遇到這樣的問題啊所以我是建議是不是用書面拿書面然後就可以提出書面來動之然後如果下有真的要開"},{"start":6650.556,"end":6677.932,"text":"開專案我沒有意見,我只是說那就請下個會期的召委來排就好了那排不排是主席他的權責啦提不提案是委員的權利嘛那委員提案他有他的看法那當然儘管會主委你們有那麼多的人員在座其實平常要看你們的一些建議或者看一些進度你們本來就應該來說做報告的啊"},{"start":6679.158,"end":6696.378,"text":"所以你平常如果委員有關心做得好那究竟要不要做專案報告你可以來請教提案的委員他希望了解什麼方面那你們也不能說因為有時候休會的期間沒開會你不要躲起來自己做自己的事嘛"},{"start":6698.021,"end":6721.002,"text":"是不是 所以你們應該 主委的態度應該是坦然的嘛勇敢面對 這個也不是什麼特別的狀況啊王國文委員 然後郭國文委員 讓我說一下比如說 我在下一個提案裡面 也是凍結10%那這個是有關於相關的金融詐騙的管理的部分"},{"start":6721.542,"end":6746.636,"text":"那其實專案報告比如說你把這個有關於精精分離跟有關詐騙都一起來做一次專案報告就一起解凍啊那我覺得這兩個是本來就是大家都比較關心的那你到了下個會期因為我現在還凍結10%嘛如果比如說我們在下個會期二月底如果開議在三月這不會影響你的執行啊"},{"start":6747.356,"end":6750.941,"text":"我不是凍結你50%所以你沒有辦法執行我是凍結10%嘛那如果這樣的話我可以講說我凍結5%但是我希望這兩個議題都能夠來做專案報告好不好"},{"start":6762.861,"end":6768.706,"text":"我是覺得剛剛吳委員講的其實是讓大家做一個參考的方向因為一般而言確實是專案報告的主題通常是召委在排定其實我們兩邊都有召委我是覺得王委員提到所謂經經分離或是產經分離這個原則確實是有需要進一步的釐清"},{"start":6789.202,"end":6817.75,"text":"我就覺得下一次的會期看如果是盧委員當招偶或者是你們陳俊永繼續連任的話就請他安排這樣就好啦對啊好 那個 賴司保委員這樣子啦我覺得尊重提案委員啦如果這樣子的話那就通通不要從此都不要有什麼專案報告了我覺得這個題目重要但是主委講的我同意我們要立委修改今年台新金控跟新光金控這幾個是要花票的"},{"start":6818.65,"end":6836.727,"text":"就是它是一個general case它不是針對個案用精精分理的原則這個我覺得應該列在狀況報告而且就應該在我們這裡面代表我們委員會重視啦這個跟稍微要不要排這是另外一件事這是我們規定它要做這樣的狀況報告我覺得把"},{"start":6839.93,"end":6849.844,"text":"個案去掉把個案去掉我覺得這樣才有道理而且這兩個一起的嘛兩個一起的就來個專案報告沒什麼了不起啦這你們給他"},{"start":6855.251,"end":6878.836,"text":"今天不是說凍結10%或5%啦這最主要是說因為台新金跟新光金現在還在進行試啦那如果在進行試的過程當中那你要求這個金管會來做這個報告我覺得是不妥啦但是如果說你要去談一個金金分離的原則原則性的東西我們可以來談啦所以我是建議說就像這個賴委員所說的啦這個其實不要去講個案啦那我們講一個原則啦"},{"start":6882.821,"end":6894.439,"text":"我們就是講一個通案,不講個案但是對於金融秩序的穩定其實38家的本土銀行還有其他的也不是說這個時刻才在談併購"},{"start":6896.241,"end":6913.819,"text":"其實一連串大概是一二十年大大小小的證券還有投信也都有所以我想這個隨時要關心但是我也贊同剛剛賴委員所講的個案就不提但是對於委員的監督跟關心這是必須的謝謝"},{"start":6915.16,"end":6918.302,"text":"我想做任何的政策報告儘管會都尊重立法院沒有問題我只是說剛剛有幾位委員也提到這個不管是我們把它通案是現在這個個案正在審查中"},{"start":6942.279,"end":6968.788,"text":"那我們沒辦法預想說當天如果詢問個案的部分我是不會回答的我想說希望就是說我們是針對政治來討論我們都尊重立法院的決定不管是未來召委的提案或怎麼樣我們都尊重這個主委不用擔心了真的要排到這個案子差不多今年五月以後的事情了啦不會這麼快啦不會這麼快啦那時候大概都已經成還落定了吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":6971.141,"end":6997.096,"text":"同仁都各有各的道理啦那也都講得出一篇可以很讓人家信服的原理但是現在我們如果還是堅持要用專案報告那就是等於把下個會期或下下會期的召委的排案的權利你給他框住了因為這個不是行政機關要求要來專案報告這是要召委要排他們的專案報告"},{"start":6998.257,"end":7026.36,"text":"召委還是要召委要排我是不知道下個會期或下一次會期的召委各黨的是誰但是我們如果用這個方式的話今天講說這個案子很重要其實今晚會所有的事情哪一樣不重要那如果都這樣的話大家都以後在審計算的時候我一直給你框很多那以後的召委都沒有排案的權利啦因為專門來處理這個專案報告就來不及啦所以我是覺得考慮一下如果你真的覺得這很重要我們都贊成排專案"},{"start":7027.681,"end":7052.555,"text":"就是由召委來排我們都非常贊成但是你需不需要在預算的時候要用這樣的方式就規定下一會期的召委就一定就他的那個排案的那個的權限就被捆綁了我的意思是這樣羅兵召委員好謝謝主委其實大家當過召委的都知道就算有預定的這個必須排的專案召委如果沒排那就過去了挑過人過就過去了"},{"start":7054.156,"end":7067.625,"text":"不過我覺得還是回到一個提案委員的一個尊重的立場既然他已經提了那我們就給予支持那至於提不提 排不排是下一次召委的權利這個歷史"},{"start":7070.846,"end":7070.866,"text":"這樣子齁"},{"start":7087.291,"end":7110.052,"text":"這樣子吧 剛剛綜合大家的說法都是覺得可以報告啦但是不要針對個案那這樣今晚會是不是跟這個提案委員修正一下文字好嗎 那我們等一下回頭來把它做個決定所以把這個哪些文字刪掉比如說台新監控 新光監控這些文字刪掉嘛你們去修一下看就是說我們一個通案的怎麼來做一個專案報告尊重提案委員你們派人去跟他們修一下 我們往下"},{"start":7111.393,"end":7135.976,"text":"把文字修正一下覺得比較妥適的去修正一下文字專報可以但是修一下文字好嗎你們修一下比較合適的文往下再回頭來先往下走31案去跟委員提案委員修正一下文字因為預算10%而已年底才會用到我是說不用去綁那個併金同意你綁了併金同意等於是"},{"start":7137.477,"end":7162.945,"text":"讓他修一下 讓他們在郭董修一下大家都聽到各位委員的意見了 去修一下然後我們先討論36案王世堅委員不在喔 三十幾 他不過來喔好 那就36案喔來 36案就是 這是王世堅委員的提案它是凍結金管會的20%的業務費來這因為武力法委員跟郭董委員有等一下 等一下 30案要"},{"start":7165.063,"end":7183.811,"text":"等一下 這金管會 那銀行局 這個金管會的第36案 金36案這個吳亦華跟郭國文有沒有什麼意見 不然我們就來處理了那萬就不處理了 他本人不來我們也就不處理了他沒有委託你們講了齁要併喔 併37案啦齁 那就以37"},{"start":7191.089,"end":7195.653,"text":"以37案為主啦 併到37案了就併 併凍啦齁 那等於是凍結50萬元啦 凍結50萬元啦就凍 併到你這邊 就凍50萬 對就併到你這個案子啦 併到37案了齁好來等一下 我來唸"},{"start":7213.778,"end":7241.221,"text":"36、37併案 凍結金融監理的業務費50萬元以37案為主啦 好吧好 接著下一個案子是什麼不用了啦 他沒有啦不用了不用 他沒有來他自己但是這個37案我想確認一下就是你的啊 我知道 但是我想確認一下因為我們要求的是現在姓名條例可以允許我們單列羅馬拼音就是原住民族文字嘛"},{"start":7242.506,"end":7247.31,"text":"那現在就是很多金融單位的系統那金融單位回答一下"},{"start":7250.703,"end":7272.053,"text":"那個內政部的那個函是廢掉以後是現在金融機構都在配合那已經有十幾家已經完成那個系統的修改那全部的金融機構都會在今年底以前完成修改那很好啊全部會在今年底完成對那即使系統還沒完成修改以前他們也是可以用人工的方式來處理沒有問題"},{"start":7277.982,"end":7297.787,"text":"23 下去是也是往事件委員的23 銀行局的23案24案30案齁 這些都是一樣的齁那我看就併到委員會的提案裡頭好了就併動 裡面都有嘛我看30案 33有處理是不是好那我們看30案是什麼也是往事件喔對對"},{"start":7304.946,"end":7334.145,"text":"他沒有 他沒有用國外禮費 他就放業務費那一個 那個幕啊業務費 因為提案三十 那個王委員有同意百分之十 那全部幫他併到這個三十案好了齁就是百分之十啦對 他三十案已經往上往上一層二三二四的齁 一併併到那個金融金管會的銀行局的銀行監理的這個業務費併案動百分之十二三二四三十就併案動百分之十我寫一下喔我是絕對副局長 你不要太"},{"start":7335.609,"end":7348.965,"text":"他併上去之後你國外旅運費將來在政黨協商的時候還是要統三的我知道我因為國外旅運最後是要統三的喔所以你這樣等於變他三兩次喔不是說國外旅費"},{"start":7352.789,"end":7367.06,"text":"因為國外旅費在我們委員會不處理的原因是因為委員會要統一處理啊這個沒有關係啦你這個處理的話這裡有處理那邊就不會處理了啦這不會啦你放心啦銀行局30案的部分已經改為凍結了不是檢列了那所以這邊是23、24跟30併在一起全部都併在一起凍結10%啦這樣可以了優惠優惠優惠剛剛解除的條件是什麼"},{"start":7380.675,"end":7399.669,"text":"我看一下喔 書面報告 兩個月內提書面報告好啦 可以啦 可以可以可以 夠了夠了 可以來 好 那接著還有哪一案 保險的齁 保險局的12跟1412跟14 也是王世堅委員的提案 我們看 保險監理的業務費跟14案"},{"start":7407.566,"end":7428.141,"text":"業務費我們都把它上升到業務費好了一個是什麼一個是簡略是那個保十二的部分保十二跟十四這部分我們有跟委員先拜會過我們是建議動五十萬那是不是那個保十四的部分我們也可以併案來跟哪一個案子一樣呢"},{"start":7429.844,"end":7436.689,"text":"月保14的部分那部分我們其實經費是不夠的那是派人到美國的那個建立關節會那所以12跟14您的建議是怎樣"},{"start":7438.612,"end":7459.153,"text":"我們是合併 合併一起保險監理底下動50萬好 12 14併動50萬以12萬為準他這個就 你寫個他沒來沒有來就不要處理好了這個沒來15是國外旅費的部分就是國外旅費就是不處理了他12 14也不要處理 他沒來其他人要幫他講嗎"},{"start":7464.736,"end":7492.295,"text":"有人要幫他講嗎 他沒來啊所以是保險監理聯署人要幫忙說一下 郭滾維 吳立華委員這兩位有沒有意見還是照這個意見 有沒有意見聯署人有沒有意見我們有辦會委員辦公室 那時候是談凍結50萬啦好啦 沒關係啦 病案凍結50萬啦 加速面報告 這樣可以吧可以喔 好 就這樣子以12案為主 好 還有嗎"},{"start":7495.726,"end":7522.439,"text":"還有哪一個案子沒有處理31喔哪一個保嗎就王宏威委員那個王宏威委員那個已經文字修正好了嗎好金管會文字修正好了嗎就剩下這個嗎剩下王宏威委員剛提的這個好來改好了嗎"},{"start":7524.721,"end":7544.06,"text":"我們就是通案處理啦 就做通案的報告嘛看尊重提案委員啦齁你去跟他溝通一下主委去跟王委員溝通一下其他應該都沒有什麼問題了齁"},{"start":7546.328,"end":7561.416,"text":"等下我們就會先讀嘛然後11點就開始開這個研究讓你們可以先讀除了31案是他們溝通完了我們照他們溝通後的決議那我們現在先讀其他已經通過的案子然後11點繼續再開問全部練20分鐘"},{"start":7567.409,"end":7568.15,"text":"先宣讀通過案子"},{"start":7587.638,"end":7595.525,"text":"在那邊要不要再講那個你就當長輩去開怎麼開不要再去講這個這個被動了我還蠻多的一天三百多萬你送給我"},{"start":7613.406,"end":7617.087,"text":"我們先讀協商結論請部會聽一下看有沒有錯"},{"start":7640.973,"end":7661.575,"text":"宣讀協商結論金融監督管理委員會第1案改凍結一般行政70萬元提書面報告第2案改組決議第3案改組決議第4案撤案第5案第6案併案凍結一般行政10%3個院內提書面報告以第5案為主第7案照案通過第8案"},{"start":7663.103,"end":7678.469,"text":"基本行政工作維持減列三十萬元科目自行調整第九案改組決議第十案改組決議第十一案減列基本行政工作維持業務費五萬元科目自行調整第十二案改組決議第十三案"},{"start":7682.492,"end":7707.828,"text":"第十三案 基本行政工作為止檢列40萬元科目自行調整第十四案 改組決議第十五案 十六案 併案檢列基本行政工作為止向下設備及投資5萬元科目自行調整第十七案 改組決議第十八案 改組決議第十九案 改組決議 提書面報告第二十案 照案通過二十一案 改組決議第二十二案 改組決議第二十三案 改組決議"},{"start":7710.438,"end":7734.707,"text":"第二十四案改組決議第二十五案改組決議第二十六案改組決議第二十七案改組決議第二十八案改組決議第二十九案改組決議第三十案改凍結百分之五百分之五兩個月內提書面報告第三十一案暫保留第三十二案改組決議第三十三案改組決議第三十四案改組決議第三十五案撤案"},{"start":7743.291,"end":7759.3,"text":"第三十四案照案通過第三十五案撤案第三十六案並第三十七案凍結金融監禮五十萬元以第三十七案為主第三十八"},{"start":7761.124,"end":7779.196,"text":"第三十八案 三十九案 併案 凍結 金融監理 百分之五三個院內提書面報告 以第三十八案為主第四十案 改組決議第四十一案 四十二案 改凍結五十萬元 以第四十一案為主第四十三案 改組決議 第四十四案 改組決議"},{"start":7781.86,"end":7791.637,"text":"第四十五案改組決議第四十六案檢列金融監理十萬元科目自行調整第四十七案未處理第四十八案改凍結40萬元提書面報告"},{"start":7795.629,"end":7814.874,"text":"第49案召喚通過 50案召喚通過51案召喚通過 52案召喚通過 53案召喚通過 54案召喚通過 55案召喚通過 56案召喚通過 57案召喚通過 58案召喚通過 59案召喚通過 60案召喚通過 61案召喚通過 62案召喚通過 63案修正通過 64案召喚通過"},{"start":7828.508,"end":7851.663,"text":"銀行局64案照案通過銀行局第一案銀行局第一案改組決議第二案及第16案併案凍結一般行政50萬元以第二案為主"},{"start":7853.103,"end":7875.513,"text":"第三案 改組決議第四案 改組決議第五案 撤案第六案 第七案 第八案 併案凍結5% 以第六案為主第九案 改凍結一般行政100萬元第十案 簡略基本行政工作維持30萬元 科目自行調整第十一案 簡略基本行政工作維持30萬元 科目自行調整第十案 改凍結一般行政10萬元"},{"start":7877.344,"end":7903.081,"text":"提書面報告第13案檢略基本行政工作維持60萬元科目自行調整第14案改組決議第15案改組決議第17案改組決議第18案改組決議第19案改組決議第20案改動解50萬元提書面報告經同意經同意後提書面報告第21案改組決議第22案照案通過第25案"},{"start":7908.237,"end":7922.165,"text":"第25案並第27案凍結35萬元以第25案為主第28案改組決議第26案改組決議第28案改組決議第29案檢列銀行監理50萬元客戶自行調整第23、24及第30案並案凍結銀行監理向下優惠費10%兩個人內提書面報告以第30案為主"},{"start":7935.711,"end":7952.435,"text":"第三十一案改組決議第三十二案改凍結陰陽監理十萬元提書面向下業務費用十萬元提書面報告第三十三案照案通過第三十四案照案通過第三十五案照案通過第三十六案照案通過第三十七案改組決議"},{"start":7965.092,"end":7982.402,"text":"證券期貨局第一案改組決議第二案改凍結一般行政70萬元第三案撤案第四案第六案併案凍結200萬元以第四案為主第五案改組決議第七案改凍結一般行政70萬元第八案改組決議"},{"start":7984.261,"end":7996.328,"text":"第九案改組決議第十案檢略基本行政工作維持30萬元科目自行調整第十一案檢略基本行政工作維持向下房屋建築養護費30萬元科目自行調整第十案改動結80萬元兩個月內兩個月內提書面報告"},{"start":8004.571,"end":8015.78,"text":"第13案 改凍結一般行政60萬元第14案 改組決議第15案 改凍結10%第16案 改組決議第17案 改組決議第18案 照案通過第19案 撤案第20案 改組決議第21案 照案通過"},{"start":8026.67,"end":8054.5,"text":"第二十二案改凍結五十萬元第二十三案改凍結五十萬元第二十四二十五案併案凍結三十萬元以第二十五案為主第二十六案檢列證券期貨市場監禮向下業務費十萬元客戶自行調整第二十七案改組決議第二十八案不以處理第二十九案檢列五萬元客戶自行調整檢列證券期貨監禮"},{"start":8058.29,"end":8074.843,"text":"政見集合市場監理五萬元客戶自行調整第三十案改組決議第三十一案照案通過第三十案照案通過第三十三案照案通過第三十四案照案通過第三十五案改組決議保險局第一案改組決議"},{"start":8085.768,"end":8109.235,"text":"第二案及第十案 併案凍結五十萬元 以第二案為主第三案 撤案第四案 第五案 併案凍結一般行政向下業務費併案凍結基本行政工作為止 以六十萬元 以第五案為主"},{"start":8111.997,"end":8134.238,"text":"基本行政工作維持向下業務費六十萬元以第五案為主第六案改組決議第七案改組決議第八案檢列基本行政工作維持三十五萬五千元客戶自行調整第九案改組決議第十一案十三案並案凍結百分之三以第十一案為主"},{"start":8136.209,"end":8143.032,"text":"第十四案及第十四案並案凍結業務費五十萬元提書面報告以第十二案為主我們主要人事費為主啦謝謝謝謝我們法定人數是一百一千一百一十八"},{"start":8166.462,"end":8184.829,"text":"第十五案不予處理第十六案檢列保險監理五萬元科目進行調整第十七案照案通過第十八案照案通過第十九案照案通過檢查局第一案改組決議第二案改動解一般行政五十萬元兩個月內提書面報告第三案撤案"},{"start":8185.589,"end":8197.201,"text":"第四案改動解一般行政50萬元兩個月內提書院報告第五案簡略基本行政工作為此20萬元科目執行調整第二案改組決議第七案簡略基本行政工作為此30萬元科目執行調整"},{"start":8198.683,"end":8225.663,"text":"第八案改組決議第九案改組決議第十案改組決議十一案改組決議十二案及第十三案併案凍結一百萬元提書命報告以第十二案為主第十四案改組決議第十五案改組決議第十六案改組決議第十七案改組決議第十八案改凍結金融機構檢查向下優惠費五十萬元提書命報告第十九案檢閱金融機構檢查五萬元科目自行調整"},{"start":8226.644,"end":8254.077,"text":"第二十案 招案通過第二十一案 招案通過存保存保 存保保險股份衛生公司第一案 撤案第二案 增略利息收入兩千萬元第三案 增略保惠收入五千萬元第四案 減略管理費用五十萬元 客戶自行調整第五案 招案通過金融監督管理基金 第一案 招案通過第二案"},{"start":8255.68,"end":8269.449,"text":"第二案檢列推動保護金融消費者權益計畫一百萬元第三案改組決議第十案檢列一般服務費一百萬元科目執行調整第五案照案通過第六案改組決議"},{"start":8271.803,"end":8294.682,"text":"第七案及第九案 並案檢列推動金融制度新種金融商品研究及發展計畫200萬元第八案 遭案通過第十案 檢列補協助政府機關購100萬元第十一案 檢列捐助國內團體100萬元第十二案 遭案通過第十三案 遭案通過第十四案 遭案通過"},{"start":8296.26,"end":8299.904,"text":"保險業務發展基金 第一案改組決議 第二案 遭案通過"},{"start":8312.259,"end":8323.652,"text":"10%因為他有他的難處因為什麼大家都要人這裡這裡台獨輸了這不是我會說因為我們假設增加人力費對國家的總預算其實差很小但是他的效果很大因為多一個人"},{"start":8332.802,"end":8350.727,"text":"他一年預算多一百多萬但是他管理的那個就這麼大對因為主要是印了印了對在這邊在這裡這裡兩張兩張這裡三一跟三二對就改端報告後端五趴五趴對"},{"start":8362.23,"end":8363.631,"text":"請身之外的"},{"start":8381.856,"end":8404.822,"text":"那你為什麼要讓民眾選擇投票?緊張喔?對啊,那只有你可以跟他競爭,你怎麼看?啊,他都,都,首先都,錯誤啊,沒有啦,主要,主要,本來主席都,比較矮的,沒有啦我聽到第一天YouTube的時候,主席公開說,只有他能夠投票,可見不明"},{"start":8411.161,"end":8438.966,"text":"宣讀第31項協商結論凍結金融監理向下金融監督管理5%向提專案報告後時的動之並作文字修正 宣讀完畢那對協商的這個結論有沒有什麼意見他那個是併動啦沒關係好有沒有都唸到了"},{"start":8442.554,"end":8448.967,"text":"保險局部分第15案不予處理第16案簡略金融監禮5萬元科目自行調整 宣讀完畢"},{"start":8450.731,"end":8480.046,"text":"各位對協商結論有沒有異議沒有沒有我們就通過了本日會議作成如下決議審查中華民國一四年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會銀行局證券期貨局保險局檢察局收支部分及附屬單位預算有關營業部分中央存款保險股份有限公司及非營業部分金融監督管理基金保險業務發展基金除照協商結論通過外其餘部分均照列"},{"start":8481.715,"end":8509.107,"text":"第二金融監督管理委員會銀行局證券期貨局保險局檢查局稅數部分有關正式別稅數預算隨同以上機關別審查結果調整有關中央存款保險股份有限公司預算案業務計劃部分應依據業務收支金融保險成本轉投資重大資建設事業及資金運用等項之審查結果隨同調整"},{"start":8509.787,"end":8533.312,"text":"金融保險成本部分隨同營業總支出審查結果調整營業總支出因隨同調整資金應用部分因依據業務收支金融保險成本因虧撥補轉投資及重大支建設事業等向之審查結果隨同調整有關特別收入基金金融監督管理基金業務因"},{"start":8535.452,"end":8554.538,"text":"業務計劃應依據基金人與用途審查結果隨同調整有關信託基金保險業務發展基金運用計劃應依據收支漁畜撥補等項之審查結果隨同調整請問各位對以上決議有沒有異議沒有沒有異議通過了齁這個吧 一樣的吧"},{"start":8558.666,"end":8586.113,"text":"本委員會負責審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算公務預算部分經已審查完略有關正式別稅出預算隨同以上機關別審查結果調整並擬據審查報告並入審查總報告提院會討論院會討論前須交由黨團協商院會討論時有本席出席說明請問各位委員有無異議沒有齁 代委員"},{"start":8587.759,"end":8596.504,"text":"沒有喔 有異議沒有喔 沒通過啦好 本日會議审議進行完畢 我們休息喔好 謝謝"},{"start":8660.367,"end":8661.955,"text":"谢谢观看"}]}},{"id":"158604","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158604","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e527cd626663bd0c265efe2b3915ec92638d75bdfb612c74e016b2f9b0938f31e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:48:38 - 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其實在這次總統出訪前後我們跟友邦當然包括美國都有很好的溝通一起來做應處那我們也注意到雖然中共沒有發動所謂的聯合力建的2024C可是它事實上也有一些新的發展它的基建的數量另外就是在我們台灣的東岸用反聚酯它想要形成一個新常態"},{"start":105.899,"end":115.706,"text":"而且在這個前後他對日韓菲律賓也展開了很這個壓迫性的進入他們的防空識別區或是中俄的這個飛機的一個聯合的這個演習等那這些新常態"},{"start":124.973,"end":149.932,"text":"引起世界的這個大家的關注而我們當然出訪是順利成功是目標以外我們也密切的國安系統也都在這個時候隨時在做很多的這個應變那也因此我們也發現這個模式我們也跟友邦以外我們也跟在台的這個駐台使節來做公共訊息的說明讓大家一起來這個"},{"start":157.299,"end":171.054,"text":"應處這個新的中共的一個這個所謂的灰色作戰或者是它混合戰那在這個美國政府交接的期間固然北京也想去測試但是當然也怕"},{"start":172.356,"end":189.551,"text":"這個有時候擦槍走火這個時候大家對於川普總統要上任我想都還是密切觀察中所以以目前這個情勢來講外界對台灣在這一次出訪我們的這個表現也都是予以肯定也覺得說我們是一個"},{"start":190.531,"end":206.276,"text":"去維持台海和平穩定的很正面的力量反而中共是一個麻煩製造者感謝部長這樣的回答因為其實中國一直想要定調就是我們每次的出訪就是一種挑釁我們當然不接受這樣的一個框架因為對他來講他以約旦的談話也是挑釁"},{"start":209.637,"end":225.949,"text":"就職的這個演講也是挑釁你的出訪也是挑釁但他其實在這每一個時間點他都有自己想要做的事情我每年的四月跟九月他就是喜歡做軍演嘛因為是海象也比較平穩的時候所以他就會用我們當時的一些做法談話然後說你這就是挑釁"},{"start":228.432,"end":240.645,"text":"我們當然一方面知道他有認知作戰或者是這種大外宣的效果不過我們也密切注意他會不會由信轉眼 由言轉戰"},{"start":241.966,"end":269.047,"text":"因為這個有時候也是一線之間那但是我們看到這次包括美國航母的部署三艘航母在我們這個周邊地區那中共當然以新的形態他沒有出動航母可是他基建增加那而且時間也相當的長所以我們也跟包括印太司令部我想跟這個第一島鏈所有裡面鄉親國家就這一點上面我們密切的在交流以作為未來這個"},{"start":271.349,"end":295.349,"text":"能夠應變的一個參考謝謝部長那我再問下一個問題就是說我有看到外交部來回應就是說過境美國這件事情這個事實我看大概很多人都會問所以我不針對這個事實我比較想問的一個問題就是說因為這件事情跟中國的打壓是有關係的我們今天就是說中國在外交上面本來就會打壓我們所以外交部在這個方面有時候會去回應中國的問題但有時候會是陸委會再回應"},{"start":299.272,"end":310.798,"text":"那這一次我看到這一次就是以外交部的新聞稿算是蠻大程度反而是在回應中國的問題那這個我覺得沒什麼不好我只是想問說像這種事情目前跟陸委會的分工是要怎麼做"},{"start":312.608,"end":330.01,"text":"一到中國的事務當然以陸委會而主可是中國不只是兩岸關係還是一個區域甚至全球的關係所以這方面因為涉及到的軍演已經是區域性的所以我們也會試他們的這個動作我們會反應比如說我們外交部來發言當然是"},{"start":331.812,"end":358.609,"text":"我想以這個比如說這個內容來講這個外交部強調中華民國是主權國家中華民國台灣和中華人民共和國互不隸屬等等其實這個也都有他的意涵在裡面啦升高到 我不想說我們由外交部出面的時候就是代表我們政府的一個態度那陸委會平常當然在兩岸事務上他是主政的單位不過在國際關係上我們是密切的溝通協調跟分工合作"},{"start":359.229,"end":374.32,"text":"對 我覺得報道說得很好就是說這是涉及主權問題啦所以說今天跟主權有關的當然跟我們外交部會是密切相關一定要站出來講話那陸委會可能很多有時候是跟一些交流啊文化交流啊等等相關的他們要做一些風險上的控管嘛因為對方要用"},{"start":375.013,"end":404.014,"text":"這個交流來做統戰陸委會要怎麼去控管要怎麼去做審查這可能是陸委會的業務但是因為剛剛部長有提到像軍演像今天可能軍演跟區域安全有關跟主權有關這時候外交部會出來說但我發現有一個小小的一個奇怪的地方就是像這個我們在外交部上面的網站有一個叫做中國阻撓我國際空間勢力我覺得這個完全符合剛剛部長在講的但是像112年大概有四則"},{"start":405.095,"end":430.432,"text":"那113年不知道為什麼只有這一則就是說照理說像這一次剛剛其實前面那一張就是這一個外交部回應的其實跟這個算是密切相關吧因為他們可能也可能會發動歷屆相關的軍演我的感覺好像這一個的事件是符合可以放在這一個113年的這個裡面的公告啦但不知道為什麼這個一直停在1月是因為後來沒有再更新還是說是什麼樣的理由呢"},{"start":431.352,"end":448.006,"text":"這個是統計上可能怎麼去分類那我們應該是有很多比如說涉及到中共阻撓我們在國際參與上啦或者是扭曲2758號決議或者是涉及到就是對於像比如最近這個中日之間外長"},{"start":450.227,"end":461.272,"text":"的會談那個內容之前這個這個外交部長的時候是涉及到所謂一中的問題這次涉及到這個所謂的歷史教科書的問題那這些都是希望壓縮我們台灣的國際空間而我們也都有反應就是說"},{"start":469.835,"end":484.743,"text":"中共在利用每一次的他們的國際的活動或是簽訂的這個聲明就會矮化台灣會扭曲很多解釋而這影響我們國際空間的參與所以我想應該只是這個標題啦我也請同仁在"},{"start":487.905,"end":503.267,"text":"整理一下之後跟委員報告因為是我們公佈的次數應該是相當多對 因為我感覺113年反而事件更多嘛對所以照理說應該會有因為112年大概四五折啦所以113年我感覺五六折應該也跑不掉但不知道為什麼它停在1月所以這個可能再請同仁去關注一下好"},{"start":503.627,"end":524.033,"text":"我們也要多注意就是公共訊息我也請同仁要注意所以我們自己發新聞或其他的有一些就是這方面的統計新的勢力也應該讓廣為周知就公共訊息的傳播非常重要對 因為我看粉專其實都有在更新這一類的訊息我在想說官網是不是沒有同步對"},{"start":525.434,"end":549.114,"text":"接下來就是因為今天最主要還有問二軌我剛剛都在問一軌比較多那二軌這個方面我們是已經有提醒過這個僑委會相關的事件譬如說像這個過境美國這個剛剛外交部也發過相關的聲明但是反過來中國也聯合了一堆相關的協會發了一個聲明在左邊這邊它發在世界日報上面那裡面很多協會看起來的名稱其實非常非常的中性"},{"start":550.255,"end":571.878,"text":"像我們這一次去馬來西亞我也有去結果我也被點名了中國不希望我參加但總之他們就禁止我們現場去放國歌就是說在惡鬼外交上面中國的打壓當然是不遺餘力目前來講我知道僑委會有做一些事情外交部對於這種打壓目前的做法是什麼"},{"start":574.326,"end":589.195,"text":"其實中共它沒什麼一軌二軌它都是同一軌啦它沒有公民社會嘛民主的 自由的 人權的這樣一個集會結社的自由那它動員啦其實是反效果我想我們總統過境啦"},{"start":591.736,"end":613.589,"text":"最明顯的就是蔡總統過境紐約的時候他們八起的抗議都還付錢而且涉及到一些違法所以現在美國也是在偵辦也已經有破案那至於說在於就是我們的民間的或惡鬼的活動他們一樣會干擾那會打壓那如果是在一些"},{"start":614.549,"end":618.335,"text":"理念相近國家 我們溝通完之後他們基本上都會"},{"start":623.67,"end":644.592,"text":"對外我想不會受中共的這個脅迫可是在東南亞國家就是這個比較明顯像之前的越南最近的馬來西亞那我也非常感謝我們台商還有我們這些社團都還是很堅持但是能夠努力到什麼程度有時候就是會涉及到一些角力不過我想基本上走出去"},{"start":645.593,"end":665.45,"text":"就是就有希望那中共的打壓有時候反而凸顯問題所以我們應該講說這個過程啊可以帶動我們總和外交走出去我們會全力的來支持這些惡鬼外交NGO外交 自顧外交繼續啦用總和外交的方式就是全民啦 都走出去那布朗講得很好我覺得說像他們這種動員常常是反效果"},{"start":667.572,"end":686.446,"text":"那既然它是反效果我們應該把它放大應該讓大家知道這個反效果到底有多強我覺得讓海外的人知道說他們到底在做什麼事情我覺得這可能也是外交行動上面非常重要的一部分那我接下來本來還要因為時間到了本來還有一些民主基金會的問題不過我們兩個都在民主基金會所以這個我們就之後再問好了好的好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"158603","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158603","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e589abcf335a87bd7cf82bf49b3fbaf4a509f390aeb082454a6e0888262ff463d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:41:59 - 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謝謝主席 有請行政院龔秘書長好 請龔秘書長張委員早好 秘書長 今天是中華民國一百四年一月二號首先祝在座的各位委員同仁 政府官員以及媒體朋友新年快樂希望大家在新的一年都可以平安健康"},{"start":30.925,"end":58.706,"text":"那昨天也是這個114年的元旦賴清德總統在總統府發表以民主厚實國力移向世界新局的新年談話總統府跟行政院的網站都有轉貼扣掉題目全文總共2975字很可惜沒有提到任何一次中華民國一次都沒有出現過所以本席要跟秘書長請教說希望說在這個"},{"start":61.368,"end":87.106,"text":"元旦發表談話的時候可能說中華民國還是我們的家沒有國就沒有家所以希望說各部會不要只有在單位預算上有寫中華民國四個字那總統的元旦談話也說立法院所通過的爭議法案行政院有權提出復議提供立法院重新審視的空間憲政機關也可以提示憲通過憲法法庭判決明確憲政分際維護憲政秩序鞏固"},{"start":91.148,"end":107.302,"text":"憲政體系所以我現在要請教秘書長就賴信哲總統的談話行政院是不是已經對於去年113年12月20日我們所通過的憲訴法才化法跟拳霸法要提出復議有要提復議嗎"},{"start":109.619,"end":138.029,"text":"因為其中兩個法案基本上我們還沒收到文行政院還沒收到文所以要等到收到文看實際的內容是不是有自愛難行的部分我們才可以進一步的看要怎麼處理那有關於限訴法的部分今天行政院院會的確是有排一個議案是要提訴賦予不過最後的結果還是要行政院院會討論完結束以後決議以後才能夠確認這件事情那我請問秘書長以限訴法提出賦予的原因為何"},{"start":139.212,"end":159.111,"text":"因為限訴法的規定只是說從原有人數改成法定人數三分之二您覺得提出復議的道理請您解釋這難道不是立法委員的職權嗎來請解釋就是說對行政部門來講的話通常在憲法法庭裡面我們要嘛就是被告的"},{"start":159.977,"end":186.288,"text":"我們通常是被告的很多因為現在有好幾百案正在在審理當中要嘛就是我們告人家的所以我們變成是當事人那如果當事人這個這個憲法的法庭他的運作如果沒有辦法運作的話那我們當事人我們的權益會受到一些傷害那您清楚總統提名的大法官的名單被三黨全數否決嗎"},{"start":188.24,"end":207.974,"text":"我知道對啊那你在兩個月內趕快再提出大法官的人選就好啦所以你還是認為復議是有道理的還是你是接受到哪一位長官或是總統給你的下令沒有沒有沒有因為現在開行政院院會嘛他已經排入議程那就要看行政院院會處理的結果"},{"start":209.1,"end":233.654,"text":"好 這個秘書長我還是希望說你們可以給一個完整的答覆為什麼限訴法你們認為要提附議有自然難行之處其實大法官提好提滿是大家人民所能接受的不要是廢死大法官其實大家都可以接受這提醒秘書長第二個總統說才化法需要冷靜再思考為國家尋求長治久安之道請問何謂冷靜 執政黨現在有版本出來了嗎"},{"start":235.186,"end":258.37,"text":"因為還是一樣就是說我們要收到這個正式的函文來以後我們才可以依據裡面的內容來做相關的判斷或處置但是大概有概略性的是有是有這個可能的影響是有做一些估算好因為最近大家其實媒體也吵得紛紛擾擾請問這個主計處有算出來這個財化法最後的結論的時候每個部會要各減28%的預算有算出來了嗎"},{"start":264.735,"end":268.402,"text":"這是主委總書提供的資料都算出來了所以你們會自己先砍28%的預算每個部會每個單位"},{"start":271.309,"end":295.303,"text":"沒有就是我剛才特別提到就是我們要看到正式的新聞以後才有辦法做更進一步的精算所以秘書長我覺得你今天的準備還是這個沒有很很充足啦所以我當然說希望當然希望說這個秘書長你要有肩膀那我總要問你一個問題就是說針對上次的內政委員會在12月18號下午4點當時這個我們"},{"start":298.644,"end":326.183,"text":"學信委員那時候砍了要開會當時有一位秘書長就是您第一個就到回到我們內政委員會坐在第一個位置我還記得那時候我拿起電話打電話說怎麼你一個人到場我那時候我看那個樣子好像你是說你怎麼只有一個人到場其他人都還沒到結果後來所有的行政院的官員才到現場請問你是後來好像聽媒體報導你接到一通電話就起身離開請問那通電話是誰打給您的"},{"start":329.085,"end":335.751,"text":"為什麼您到現場決定要開會而且還要打電話請大家回來以後是誰打給你通電話要求你要離開?是我辦公室同仁他是你下屬還是行政院長?"},{"start":348.061,"end":375.785,"text":"不是 就是我辦公室裡面的他是用什麼回覆回覆給你說要你離開他提醒我 他是提醒我說現在是不是他要我確定說我會留在這邊還是因為我行政院有會議大家在等我回去開會他問我說好 所以你的意思是說其他的其他的會議是比立法院請你提出相關預算的執行還要重要那請問你是什麼會議他請我去"},{"start":376.405,"end":392.74,"text":"他請我確認就是說我要回去開會還是說要繼續留在這邊他沒有請你離開啊沒有 他誤我嘛他誤我說我要繼續留在這邊開會還是那你的回應是你要離開對 後來我決定要離開為什麼離開的原因還是沒有回應對 我剛才特別提到的就是說這個"},{"start":396.752,"end":415.665,"text":"我在就是九點我就來八點多嘛我一直來一直等一直等等到了兩點多表定的這個會議結束以後那這時候的螢幕事實上還顯示會議尚未開始我離開的時候那時候已經兩點多了會議還沒有開始所以我就離開了我想說今天的議程就完畢了"},{"start":416.886,"end":441.054,"text":"阿等到後來等一下秘書長你前後矛盾你一開始說你的同仁打電話給你問你有沒有其他的會議你聽我講完後來徐昭偉他在就是徐昭偉在4點16分的時候他進入那個好秘書長我跟你講我相信這等一下徐昭偉會親自問你因為這是你不尊重我們這個立政委員會的昭偉主席也有打給你可是你離開可是經費的重點專案報告是有關於這個"},{"start":445.256,"end":462.174,"text":"這個霸凌案的部分所以我想要請因為我希望行政院不要只會提復議霸凌案應該也要趕快來去處理針對最近幾個案子有關於這個秘書處的徐處長的事情現在我想要請教徐處長在嗎"},{"start":470.865,"end":486.092,"text":"好 秘書長要幫徐處長回答嗎我請教就媒體所披露的他有這個讓這個斷肢的工友下課痛哭酒醒才能調職有這件事情嗎這件事情後來怎麼處理"},{"start":487.703,"end":498.954,"text":"報告委員那個是這樣據我的了解就是說因為這位同仁他要調職我只請教有沒有他下跪痛哭求情才能夠調職這件事情我們處長說他說他要下跪我們處長說我們一起跪"},{"start":504.019,"end":532.454,"text":"因為這個工友對這個缺乏知名協助股那怎麼會讓一個工友好 第一件事怎麼會讓這個工友下跪痛哭絕情才能調職這第一個問題那第二個問題也是媒體所披露的就是跟同單位的誠信資訊長這個比 我認為比霸凌還要嚴重可是在今天的調查報告裡面完全沒有寫對於這個不免令的事情其實剛剛這個徐處長也有想要跟我解釋那我只是想問徐處長說"},{"start":534.015,"end":553.534,"text":"為什麼會在這個7月26跟8月1號兩次質詢徐耕成下班後到閒置的副院長官邸約會?請問到底是在做什麼?那在裡面待了一個半小時到底在做什麼?可以這樣子公器私用嗎?而且還在下班時間這樣子難道秘書長你還要偏袒他嗎?"},{"start":555.277,"end":580.694,"text":"因為是講說因為那個時候這個房屋要修繕修繕一個半小時他要檢查去看嘛就是說了解一下情況是這樣那另外一同仁他是承辦人當然處長去承辦人也要去要不然怎麼樣去說怎麼樣去維護這個這個修繕的工作因為這個已經發包了已經要確定要怎麼做了要趕快確定下來"},{"start":581.923,"end":603.513,"text":"那我再請教喔,請問秘書長你要繼續回答嗎?那我請教喔,那我因為時間的關係喔,那請問他們在媒體裡有說這個在吃早餐,每天都在早上吃早餐而且要把門關起來,中午要吃中餐沒有這樣的事所以媒體批調是錯的嗎?沒有這樣的事,對好,那我是用一點時間,我是不是可以請徐處長來接受質詢"},{"start":607.932,"end":626.603,"text":"好 徐市長因為時間的關係我看到報導裡面有講其實你的個性其實是很溫馴的我是不是給你最後的時間因為我覺得不穩定的這件事情受傷最大的就是你的家人是不是給你一段時間讓你跟你的家人可以說幾句話好 感謝委員讓我有這個時間來說明這一切"},{"start":629.949,"end":645.121,"text":"那個暴早7月25號不是7月26號我們進去寓所各位都知道7月26號是颱風天颱風過近之後其實我們上班後的第一天我們秘書處是最忙的我們到處去善後"},{"start":645.982,"end":667.037,"text":"那7月26號那一天,其實一整天都在善後到了下班前,懲判同仁跟我講說我們那個獄所還沒有處理那接下來就是禮拜六禮拜天他不想要拖過兩個假日禮拜一再去處理他跟我說他要先去看一下所以懲判人是相當負責任的懲判人"},{"start":668.359,"end":694.819,"text":"他跟我說完之後其實我當初還在忙我就說好您先去我等一下公事忙完我就去了可是事實上我心裡內心是在想說讓一個女孩子自己去預鎖我是不太放心的所以他去了沒有多久我就我公事處理完我也就跟著去了去了之後發現那個烏瓦破了一個大洞那個整個天花板已經是垮下來了我這邊都有剪付照片"},{"start":697.293,"end":716.547,"text":"那8月1號呢8月1號各位可以看一下8月1號是過了一個禮拜因為其實那個中間我那個烏瓦的處理因為我們馬上就要大修了所以說我們就自己用簡易的修繕方式處理7月26號的時候我是用一個塑膠布蓋在上面然後拿一個烏瓦蓋著"},{"start":717.327,"end":737.552,"text":"那8月1號的時候 各位去看一下天氣那天是下雨的一樣的狀況 我們想說下雨的時候好 所以組長 這個細節的部分我希望說會後時間關係會後提書面資料再給本席到底在裡面一個半小時是多少所以您剛我想要請你對您家人說幾話所以你認為你是沒有任何的問題嗎"},{"start":739.162,"end":767.584,"text":"當然沒有任何的問題我是覺得這個報宅對我的家人還有同仁都造成了莫大的傷害這個我希望希望能夠還我一個清白謝謝好 謝謝處長那今天實現的關係我希望說未來還是要有這個跟下屬的分際那我希望說新的一年大家很多事情一起繼續努力謝謝"},{"start":772.5,"end":776.099,"text":"好 那我們接下來"}]}},{"id":"158601","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158601","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e55f8d18c2e5d03c9e5efe2b3915ec926309f390aeb082454a0ad873e55dcd76e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:37:56 - 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Island跟中國簽了安全的協定他們把一些武警事實上是軍人"},{"start":150.001,"end":161.636,"text":"進駐之後那引起了這些民主國家的大家的一個關注所以包括最近澳大利亞就是跟這個"},{"start":164.676,"end":191.393,"text":"就是南泰的國家簽訂一些安全的協定這個是我們可以看到包括跟諾魯就是希望不要讓中共的力量進來所以我們就有角色因為他們是所以我剛剛提到就是說中共的使力越來越重那當然今天賴總統選擇了南泰培養的一個書房是正確的那只是有一點比較有一點缺失的地方可惜的地方是什麼"},{"start":192.253,"end":207.769,"text":"是在過去本席在一年當中我一直提到就是希望能夠重視原民外交那當時你也非常的支持希望能夠推派無認所的"},{"start":208.309,"end":232.397,"text":"原住民的這些無認署大使包含我們在前任的吳釗燮也都同意我的想法可是在這一次的出訪賴總統並沒有好好的把原民外交尤其是南太平洋的這樣的一個島國做一個連結性因為我們在過去我們看一看"},{"start":233.217,"end":258.477,"text":"在南澳語系的這樣的一個南太平洋北太平洋這樣子加起來原住民的這個部分就將近兩億多的人口那沒有沒有實力的就是說在落實嚴防對岸發動外交的攻勢在地圖把起尤其台灣和南太平洋在太平洋島國最大的共同性就是我們都是南太平洋的島嶼那當然"},{"start":261.837,"end":280.879,"text":"本席認為南安島共同體是價值外銷真正的體現是這樣的想法也獲得部長跟我們之前的吳釗燮的支持但很可惜在這一次賴總統在出訪南太平洋似乎不太重視本席的這種想法"},{"start":281.96,"end":303.978,"text":"我跟各位說明我們是有邀請這個園民會就是曾志勇主委都有隨團那當然就是無人鎖大使方面我們是我想包括像在夏威夷的這個太平洋的這個藝術節的活動或我們在太平洋島國論壇還有相關的未來的"},{"start":307.461,"end":336.767,"text":"就是原住民的外交我們會來加強在無人鎖大使方面的角色對我希望能夠這個部分因為我們現在每曠夜下中共無所不用其極的要對我們這整個的國際的邦交裡面不斷的要想盡辦法要挖角但是我們如何然後打下更好的基礎然後鞏固我們的邦交這個也是要借用原民外交在南島語系的民族裡面能夠擴展我們的一些外交的基礎"},{"start":337.546,"end":362.488,"text":"所以這個就是我一直提醒部長好我們再來加強好那第二個是中共攻台這個美國先摧毀台積電那這個就是過去川普在任用我們副部長在過去第一任任期的時候國防部副部長助理部長這也顯示"},{"start":364.77,"end":373.898,"text":"對我們的科博級的重視現在任命他為國防部的次長那當然這個不管在他的推特"},{"start":375.178,"end":403.013,"text":"不管是在對外都已經很顯示說如果中共要攻打台灣那就先攻打我們台灣本土的台積電的這個晶圓廠那這樣的一個說辭來講的話對我們整個對我們整個來講是不是要拿我們台灣做一個籌碼那作為他們整個跟中共之間的一些立場部長你來說明一下"},{"start":403.632,"end":420.533,"text":"我想首先台灣要展現防衛的決心我們當然會捍衛包括台積電的安全不容其他國家來決定我想美國的"},{"start":423.004,"end":448.436,"text":"人會關心一方面是希望我們也能夠就是有這個決心捍衛台灣那因為這個晶片是涉及到供應鏈是全球性的這不是單獨的台灣的問題或兩岸的問題這是世界的問題所以我現在請教一下部長你個人或我們的政府會同意中共攻台就摧毀台積電嗎當然是絕不同意"},{"start":452.271,"end":472.336,"text":"其實柯博奇還有美國陸軍戰爭學院在期刊裡面就曾經有在論文認為美國以台灣應採取焦土的政策以半導體產業為籌碼威脅中國大陸如果中共攻台摧毀台積電"},{"start":473.689,"end":481.792,"text":"破壞中國的晶片供應那部長犧牲台積電焦土台灣是否成為川普"},{"start":482.478,"end":506.089,"text":"政府的一些政策那本身認為可能性非常的大就算不是川普政府的核心策略那也絕對是在政策上的選項選項之一所以我想請教部長你認為這個可能性會不會發生還是可能會發生我是認為"},{"start":508.386,"end":524.791,"text":"不會發生啦因為當然個人在平常講的話跟他作為一個政府的代表我想這個他們當時的關係他是一個民間人士他現在是個政府官員我們跟美國之間的溝通也很順暢那這個半導體供應鏈是牽一髮動全身"},{"start":530.634,"end":543.422,"text":"這個絕對不會只有在台灣受影響我想連在美國、日本、歐洲的這些都會連帶受影響所以這一點我想我們不可能去犧牲台灣的一個半導體的產業但是台灣的半導體產業怎麼樣去做全球佈局"},{"start":549.266,"end":563.738,"text":"因應所謂的中國加一甚至台灣加一我們要做到台灣加N所以我是覺得化被動為主動我們是台灣Plus美國台灣Plus日本台灣Plus歐盟讓我們的供應鏈韌性更強"},{"start":565.539,"end":594.398,"text":"那我們就更安全這個經濟安全也是現在我想在美中抗衡裡面涉及到的供應鏈韌性這一點我們已經跟包括美日韓之間也有FAT4也有這個所謂晶片四國的一個溝通的一個協調的機制所以這不是單獨的涉及到兩岸問題而已這是一個世界的問題兩件事除了鞏固我們的邦交國之外"},{"start":595.359,"end":620.948,"text":"那當然台積電是我們復活神山的一個最大最大能夠讓全球裡面都知道台灣就是台積電這就是一個概念那當然我們極力外交部的責任重大就在於邦交如何發揮它的最大的功效這是本席提醒部長一下好 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因為我們有協助他申辦這個案子事實上5月份 該林姓替代一男在紐約被逮捕後 外交部曾經發稿證實林姓男子他是2023年是國和會派駐聖路西亞的外交替代一男 沒錯吧原來是預計在2024年7月退役"},{"start":52.466,"end":60.401,"text":"那我要跟部長說我覺得這件事對我們的國際形象還有替代藝尤其是外派的這個部分"},{"start":61.209,"end":87.16,"text":"的制度也造成很多的一些衝擊那這件事情的事後處理我覺得還是有很多的疑點所以在這邊我希望外交部能夠積極的回應跟澄清社會的疑慮那我首先想要問一下說林姓替代義男在我友邦聖路西亞服役他是協助擔任警察部門的網路犯罪防制相關工作對不對"},{"start":88.503,"end":98.095,"text":"對 網路方面的治安那目前我們跟深入西亞政府通報那相關黎姓男子開課的課程資料下架了嗎還沒有對不對"},{"start":100.888,"end":123.356,"text":"已經下架了嗎我們的下架了 已經有智慧深入西亞那我們再來溝通啦因為我們單方面下架但是他那邊如果還掛著我們來協調一下加快我覺得事後的補救工作外交部還是要就是再上心一點因為坦白講蠻難看的啦 沒錯吧 部長"},{"start":124.536,"end":142.784,"text":"掛在那邊當然不好看所以要先確認是不是能夠把後續的事情處理完那我就要想請教一下市長從公開資訊來看早在2020年10月在暗網上創建他就創建了名為匿名市場的在線商務平台"},{"start":143.504,"end":171.804,"text":"那調查人員發現在匿名市場上他出售的包括海洛因、可卡因、搖頭丸還有冰毒還有許許多多一些包括普通的致幻劑以及已經在美國形成公害的芬太尼那麼我要問就是說美國的司法機構在機場將他逮捕也就是說他已經掌握他的行蹤那外交部在這件事情上是有沒有提前知道相關的訊息還是等到人被抓了才接獲通報"},{"start":173.21,"end":196.96,"text":"應該說到了紐約之後就是有會我們意見我們駐外的我們的警政秘書就第一時間就掌握而且協助他辦理因為剛好5月19號這剛好在520這個新政府就職前後所以我上任之後我就就是有要求這個事情就是配合辦理以外我們也要針對這個事情能夠來查明"},{"start":200.361,"end":227.33,"text":"我要問部長的重點就在於說這案子在這個所謂的我們講這案子美國司法部就是逮捕人以及在所爭案的過程當中我們的政府包括外交部以及包括我們警政部門他是事前就已經掌握他的犯罪然後跟美國做相當程度的執法應該是沒有說在聖路西亞掌握沒有沒有嗎是他到了紐約之後美方在查是所以有匯我們意見我們那時候才知道"},{"start":227.91,"end":241.381,"text":"所以我覺得恐怕內控部分也要再注意一下這是變成是美國掌握到發現那事實上人是在抱歉在國和會在我們聖路西亞對不對反正其實外交部就有一點督導上的責任的問題不是嗎"},{"start":243.738,"end":262.725,"text":"他的工作性質不是直接跟這個有關 但是因為人嘛 我想他的犯罪行為我們當然一方面是當事人他接受司法調查啦他是替代義男嘛 再透過國和會派聖路西洋嘛 對不對那所以換言之外交部這件事我覺得還是有督導責任啦 不是嗎"},{"start":263.911,"end":286.238,"text":"所以外管就是整體責任就是一定都有的因為人在外管雖然是國盤會是另外有沒有釐清一下就是說透過他的逮捕跟犯罪事實他在服役期間有沒有涉及相關的機敏諮詢或者用他的職位來進行不當的交易就是外交的資源跟活動對他這個所謂犯罪行為"},{"start":286.898,"end":313.341,"text":"的影響是什麼有沒有他利用外交的這個所謂的資源來去稅刑他的一個犯罪的一個行動呢有沒有查過 依照人員的這個就是還有報告機密等級應該是沒有啦但是他會被稅有期制度這當然也都事後應該要來釐清那因為我們跟邦交國我們的國會其實一些替代藝人雖然只是一個年輕的人可對他們政府的幫助也是很大"},{"start":314.422,"end":337.08,"text":"我不否認替代役制度的幫助但是這是我下一個要問的問題事實上我覺得今天會有這樣的一個所謂的不法之徒那以替代役的制度變成是到邦交國這邊就反而是妨礙跟所謂傷害我們的外交的所謂的信譽跟尊嚴的時候我想要請教我們的這個替代役男在外邦"},{"start":337.78,"end":348.838,"text":"外交友邦服役的管理機制目前外交部檢討是什麼我們怎麼樣去避免未來發生的事情以及對於所謂的替代藝男的篩選的過程我們的查核機制是什麼"},{"start":349.338,"end":369.077,"text":"其實因為TID是屬於內政部警政署那他們身過一個審查的過程他符合資格然後我們外交部用外管所以就在這個前半段是內政部但是我們當然也會希望他們能夠嚴格因為畢竟派外代表國家不管是外交部或國和會"},{"start":370.993,"end":397.96,"text":"這個審查機制這個就是選擇了這個替代役的這個部分我們跟內政部我想就發生這個個案那以後在這個這個替代役男的這個派外上面希望能夠就是注意這個他的本身的有沒有犯罪行為或是上網路上因為有時候有些人看起來沒什麼前科但是這個他也許在某一些"},{"start":399.301,"end":425.402,"text":"網路或跨境的犯罪上是有這種嫌疑或者是這種狀況那當然是應該要更審慎那在麻煩部裡面針對我剛剛提的幾個問題就是說這件事事後的善後的處理狀況如何以及他對他的身份在外交部裡面他有沒有涉及要釐清一下他有沒有單用他的外交在外交部的身份來做他犯罪的一個行動的掩護"},{"start":426.062,"end":440.922,"text":"那第三個就是替代藝男跟內政部協商一下外交說真的人派到國外去發生這種事情真的是我們國家蠻丟臉的啦所以這種事情應該把這個個案變成是一個檢討的案例不要讓以後再發生這種類似的問題"},{"start":442.324,"end":457.905,"text":"對 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麗師長好 麗師長早上大家都關心的不管是財務法也好還是霸凌事件也好其實財務法這個問題很多我們民意代表在地方不管地方中央大家都有共同的聲音因為有點太過草率造成很多的因素那是不是也請行政院這邊怎樣來妥善來"},{"start":36.173,"end":42.216,"text":"把那個資源分配比較均勻讓這個聲音能夠減少這是我們未來我們行政院所要做的那第二關於霸凌的事件其實我們也看到我們中央在12月份也推出了霸凌通報系統這是未來關於地方包含所有公務人員大家都要共同制定一套透明的"},{"start":65.463,"end":93.913,"text":"的規定讓這個霸凌事件能夠減少那第三點本席所關心的就是那個重機械重機械的停放空間的問題那我也知道當初秘書長你在擔任行政院政務次長的時候在112年9月你也召開一個會議就是特殊機械"},{"start":94.963,"end":117.12,"text":"的停放空間民議長你記得吧記得那112年你現在已經又過了又兩年多了那這個案子還是停擺在那裡那未來呢我本身也關心也召開了很多會議尤其我也找出了一個問題就是在我們的"},{"start":122.503,"end":137.66,"text":"我們的交通部交通用地的項目就是第六條第三項的規定就是有一個其他交通設施這一點我們就是朝這方向來做突破但是畢竟還牽涉到"},{"start":139.742,"end":158.318,"text":"由我們交通部以及農業部還有內政部那是不是再請我們的行政院我們的秘書長再來召開有哪個單位來認定不然你齁 種機械你台灣那麼多種機械好 我就打個比喻我們這次花蓮的地震"},{"start":159.502,"end":174.967,"text":"花蓮的地震大家在電視媒體都有看到都是種機械慶祝那你國家發生了重大事故的時候你都要找這些種機械那種機械他們的問題停放的空間的問題"},{"start":176.568,"end":197.144,"text":"永遠我們中央政府都沒有替他們去做解決那地方政府勒老是來做不符合項目使用都是來白白一直來開罰單那這樣也造成業者一種非常大的困擾那是不是我們行政院要有擔當來扛起這個責任請我們民事長來回應好不好抱歉因為上一次我協調的時候"},{"start":205.526,"end":222.83,"text":"我以為已經解決了那我後續再來召開會看看怎麼樣再做處理再跟委員報告這一點我都先感謝你不然真的他們變成一個政府沒辦法說好做一個規範"},{"start":225.932,"end":243.666,"text":"你看那麼多的重機械包含潛墩機啊 挖土機啊還有一些高空的釣機啊那你萬一發生了事故你所有的重大的工程都是要依賴他們那我們還是要把它規範規範好那未來我們才會朝向說讓他們來做輔導也好讓他們有一個依據有一個前者單位"},{"start":253.334,"end":271.844,"text":"他們在地方也才可以來做先辦事業的申請那這樣才能符合我們中央來協助他們不然是全國性啦不是我們單一事件啦是 是好不好好 那我就先謝謝你囉好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158650","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158650","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e516bc35f3e276548ef82bf49b3fbaf4a56a11e77586d9faf33b3d0bf90661b4be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:49:07 - 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說這個是個人隱私我們還是別提供為好這個今天這件事情很有可能跟這802有間接相關所以說我認為這個是不單單只有隱私的問題部長你知道謝宜榮當2023的考機是什麼等次嗎你會不會好奇然後想去研究一下"},{"start":232.25,"end":261.599,"text":"我不知道但是因為確實烤雞真的是涉及個人隱私你是不知道還是不想知道不是我今天提了這個問題之後你會不會想要去了解一下你說謝宜榮嗎對我可以了解一下但是我剛剛回應的事情是說因為我原來跟我們索取這個烤雞的部分對又是個資法嘛這個很常見沒關係因為這真的是涉及到這部分但我就想問部長你會不會想要去了解一下不管是謝宜榮也好蔡夢良也好他們這些人的烤雞是什麼狀況我可以來了解一下"},{"start":262.559,"end":291.879,"text":"我認為你應該了解因為2023年我實在是2023年除了這個事件發生就讓這個基層公務員痛不欲生之外這個2023年的離退人數還是往年的兩倍就各方各面來講領頭長官在管理這個單位的時候把他搞成這樣就我們看到的資訊從2023的年初開始確實離任跟退職的人數是增加的你今天還沒有了解我知道但是如果他這樣子的狀況還打夾等你覺得公平嗎"},{"start":294.4,"end":310.943,"text":"我們可能要來了解一下原因是什麼這就是本席為什麼今天講說為什麼我想要去了解我要去調這個考積的資料原因當然你今天可以講說因為個資的關係所以我們就不便提供一大堆這樣有的沒的但是他講的對不起但是我要問的就是你至少作為部長我希望你去了解一下"},{"start":311.403,"end":325.728,"text":"這些現在事後被認定為霸凌的兇手這一群人他們的烤雞是什麼而且不只是他們的烤雞在這個就業安定基金的不當支出裡面鄭豐志主任的烤雞是什麼對不對人事調動率大幅上升人事室的烤雞是什麼"},{"start":326.768,"end":353.832,"text":"我希望考機制度要回歸正常因為公部門的文化其實大家都清楚有的是輪流啦有的是怎麼樣然後有些就被不當濫用這是機制要檢討當然也不是純粹就是你們勞動部要檢討因為你剛剛講嘛這是考試院主管這當然是另外一個層面的問題但我希望部長你在了解這樣的公部門霸凌案的時候除了這些機制的完善之外比如說保護吹哨者我不要讓他被清算這是你剛剛想要強調的重點這本席完全理解我自己覺得可能要從這個角度但是我今天"},{"start":354.232,"end":382.229,"text":"提這個質詢的用意就是提醒你啊考機很有可能是變相助長這件事情的幫兇請你針對勞動部其他部位我認為也一樣但今天是因為這是未還委員會的質詢嘛請你針對勞動部的這個考機的部分來做一個徹底的改革跟了解先了解會不會在明明施政荒鄉走板的情況下考機還是因為傳統也好或是因為奇怪的壓力或者是關係也好並沒有辦法如實顯現考機制度的功能"},{"start":383.49,"end":403.68,"text":"我當然希望考積跟他同仁失職的表現之間是有很明確的對應我給你一點時間但我希望你去了解之後你能夠有一個報告回復立法院一個報告這些人的考積狀況到底是怎麼樣你的這樣子的一個制度的方案有沒有改善跟精進的必要"},{"start":403.8,"end":425.885,"text":"我先來了解剛剛委員講的這幾位他的這個考積的狀況因為萬一這些人做了這麼誇張的事情還是打假等本席強烈主張你應該摧毀他們的年終獎金這樣這才是各個各個部門各個單位用強而有力的方式來整治這件事情才能彰顯政府打擊霸凌的決心啦好我給部長一點時間了解好不好麻煩部長儘速提供相關的資料回覆可以嗎謝謝好辛苦了謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"158647","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158647","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5d91adb7d061594e2f82bf49b3fbaf4a56a11e77586d9faf346decef9d92b3ed25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:34:30 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請民修長"},{"start":5.682,"end":34.05,"text":"好 美書長好那麼今天基本上我還是在關心有關於就是一直不停存在在我們公務體系裡面的霸凌案那現在以這個人事總署的官員因為他羞辱這個部署的霸凌案他記了兩大過免職這跟之前的勞動部那北區分署署長是一樣的那這兩大過的免職基本上是依據公務人員考機法嗎"},{"start":37.008,"end":42.47,"text":"秘書長知道嗎理論上是這樣但是這個個案我沒有那麼仔細的去了解那我現在跟秘書長來說明我們現在如果依照公務人員考積法他確實有可以一次計兩大過處分但是呢目前並沒有明文規定有關於霸凌啊或者是性騷案等等之類或者是什麼酒駕獨駕之類那現在其實"},{"start":65.516,"end":83.97,"text":"司法院考试院想要修法可是迟迟没有拿出来所以我觉得我们行政院应该跟考试院密切联系相关的修法也就是说现在看起来我们可能因应舆论上的压力媒体上的压力说我就给他两大过处分"},{"start":84.75,"end":113.189,"text":"可是日後不要出現爭議也就是說在法上面沒有那麼明確因為公務人員一次給他計兩大過處分是很嚴重的對不對應該很清楚所以不要免掉以後的爭議所以第一個希望我們行政院跟考試院能夠趕快針對這些相關的懲處辦法在法律上不夠周延的地方趕快修法補強可不可以"},{"start":114.402,"end":140.46,"text":"我同意委員的看法兩個部分一個部分修法的部分我們跟考試院已經有聯絡了看看要怎麼修法這個是委員剛才提到的第二個就是說計兩大過的確是非常重的處分那當事人基本上可以提出他可以提申訴的對那就會到保訓會去保訓會如果還沒有他還可以提救濟所以有好多的關他可以提出來當然"},{"start":141.841,"end":147.528,"text":"如果不到那個程度做這樣的決定已經造成傷害也不好所以我同意就是說怎麼樣系統化我覺得把法律上面把它強化第一個也不要讓公務人員"},{"start":156.718,"end":178.532,"text":"就是他受到這個不白之淵第二當然最重要是我們對外先說給他借兩大過處分不要過一陣子之後他申復成功然後根本就這個這個是假的那另外請問一下我們大齡通報平台在上線之後現在收案的件數是多少呢高委員"},{"start":181.249,"end":205.401,"text":"具名的具名的現在是他有彙整了因為有些很多案子是相關聯的大概有126個案子126對對對對那那個為具名的為具名的是12件12件對所以126個具名的案件其實這個數目非常多因為現在短短應該不到一個月嘛對不對所以這126個"},{"start":207.142,"end":224.139,"text":"都會立刻的加以處理嗎會調查 他一個月要給我們調查的結果好 就是一個月相關各相關的除非他有特別的理由要講理由才可以再延一個月好 因為時間關係我想請教一下我剛才也問了勞動部部長"},{"start":225.18,"end":251.053,"text":"也就是說在我們現在這麼多公家機關出現霸凌事件之後其實很多都擔心公家機關官官相護而且沒有辦法真正的能夠來處理所以我們現在很多的基層公務人員的團體都要求希望能夠比照能夠讓公務員納入職安法職業安全衛生法的保障"},{"start":251.553,"end":273.146,"text":"好那當然因為職安法是針對一般勞工那所以這一部分因為勞動部長已經已經同意我他說他也會跟這個考試院來做研商因為我們也要去回應基層公務人員的心聲所以秘書長我們行政院可不可以把這個至少納入考量因為不要每次都說"},{"start":273.706,"end":289.064,"text":"哎呀 這個是勞工 公務人員不是用這個體系 可是這個體系事實上我必須講 這個公信力已經現在不為基層公務人員所信任所以這部分 我們行政院可不可以去跟考試院去做演商"},{"start":290.234,"end":313.441,"text":"就是這樣就是說您剛剛提到的這個職工法那個部分的保障那我們會把它實際上的這個條文保障加到公務人員保障法裡面來那就會形成有同樣的這個保障基礎了所以你要修公務人員保障法對不對我有看到你報告多久會提出"},{"start":314.701,"end":342.547,"text":"我們希望說看看能不能這個會就是下個會期就把它提出來好這是你們的修法的計畫但是我還是希望你們能夠去回應基層公務人員的需求跟考試委員去商量一下如果大家真的覺得治安法而且現在還大家希望組工會了對不對公務人員還希望組工會那是不是在部分的部分讓他們覺得更安心他們可不可以去適用治安法的一個保障好不好好謝謝"},{"start":346.985,"end":353.878,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請黃建斌委員黃建斌委員黃建斌委員不在"}]}},{"id":"158640","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158640","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e53e73510ae2581892f82bf49b3fbaf4a56a11e77586d9faf39930f9bb5cf0ddfa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:07:10 - 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加兩個無黨籍啊五十四加八票 六十二票而已我們會說明可能自愛難行的部分我們會溝通 盡量溝通看起來用常理 不用腦袋 用卡打呼吸也不會過對不對為什麼要提"},{"start":45.967,"end":72.824,"text":"沒有努力啊,一定要努力才有可能機會啊要努力應該不是提複議吧趕快提出大家接受的大法官人選啊你提專業的啊,提獨立的啊,人民會鼓掌的啊你帶清德提了人,如果是好的在野黨、民眾黨跟國民黨敢擋嗎?你就是提了上次你們連民進黨自己都去封殺啊劉靜儀那個大炮事件顯示什麼?"},{"start":74.222,"end":83.332,"text":"那現在賴清德跟民進黨提的不就是要來當民進黨打手的嗎劉建宇只是因為批評了民進黨寫幾篇文章講幾句話賴清德總統把他丟包耶他民進黨黨團51個人 記黨紀還全部"},{"start":89.639,"end":114.53,"text":"你現在到底要怎麼樣的道法官你現在提副議案是怎麼樣繼續把道法官抓在你手上變禁卵這是人民要的嗎你現在不是提副議吧你現在要的應該是符合人民的需求你賴清德總統你提出好的人我們鼓鼓掌就剩下七個人一隊開會啊沒有衝突啊道法官名單還會繼續提啊你提副議案過不了人民也不同意啊你的解決方案是什麼"},{"start":115.47,"end":131.795,"text":"就提出大家會鼓掌的人啊不然就改改問題啊,你就可以開會啊是不是這樣?沒有,副議還是我們盡量溝通嘛盡量溝通,好不好不過還轉達一下啦,趕快提出政協是提出合適的人啦好來,今天來霸凌的這個專案啊秘書長現在兩平靜音有出現嘛,包括你的消保處我先問你一下十一過二十啊"},{"start":143.971,"end":156.496,"text":"一定是卓越院長,他有說喔他說已經揭露或者被檢討的,那時候11月20號,他有說一個禮拜內,全部調查完畢,追究責任對不對,你會去嗎?如果有新的案子,請各個機關職場,全面啟動防制霸凌的作業加強保護,要趕快辦"},{"start":169.824,"end":190.825,"text":"你們這個速度 你現在辦的 現在看起來 左院長是急驚風喔 速度很快喔 可是是不是跳票了當左院長在帶頭衝的時候 直接把他處理他那時候是 就是大家比較關注的幾個案件啦 那個大家比較關心嘛第一類 大家比較關注的現在調查完了嗎"},{"start":191.932,"end":213.43,"text":"除了勞動部的北分署那個案子其他調查完嘛這是第一個問題第二個有些新的案子你們進度現在變成是牛步化囉是不是本總本來就有一個規範就是一個月你現在像我剛才說的你行政院裡面發生問題你說要多久一個月是不是為什麼你們的院長這麼急驚風結果你們這邊這麼牛步化"},{"start":218.621,"end":240.507,"text":"這不跳票嗎?你至少進度跟上去啊,一天白兩天白,你想怎樣都頂一下就夠了調查小組很多是要外部委員來協助,那這個外部委員我們還要配合他們那這樣協政院長當初就不要做這個保證啊他當初是講說,大家比較矚目的幾個案子,我們是不是先來處理到目前為止,除了勞動部的案子,其他沒看得到,該我複寫啊"},{"start":241.929,"end":270.68,"text":"是不是?據我了解還有衛福部的嘛衛福部齁?你聽起來好像兩個案子處理好而已這不是打嘴巴嗎?還有教育部的然後還有還有幾個部會的都有加快速度,對人民有交代好不好?不要跳票來,我今天跟你討論一個很驚悚的數據我看了老蔣我都嚇了一大跳了你那個職場霸凌的專線成立齁我調資料的時候,他說一百個事就有五十三案對不對?"},{"start":274.094,"end":300.394,"text":"這個專線這個平台收到幾個案收到幾個案子那個人總給我的這個數據他是經過整合因為有一些是有多個人報一案會整起來目前立案的是一百二十幾個吧有具名的是一百二十幾個剛剛成立沒有多久已經有一百一百多少案子進來現在啊現在就是有具名的是一百二十六案一一二六"},{"start":302.096,"end":324.944,"text":"你會覺得這個數目字很嚇人,更嚇人,我給你看更嚇人的數目字大家看這個數字這個是本席辦公室去人事總署調到的資料這是很驚悚的一個數據最近這五年工部門職場霸凌的件數跟人數每一年都跳一倍"},{"start":326.681,"end":348.036,"text":"最恐怖的 你看一百九九年的時候 民國一百九九年78件到了110年 隔年跳到143整個要一倍到111跳到228不只沒有減少喔 每一年都增加一倍到了去年515 又跳一倍今年還沒完呢 統計到我拿到的資料到15分必須扭"},{"start":356.482,"end":370.846,"text":"地雷數據太嚇人了我們公務人員怎麼這麼可憐我們的公務員很優秀啊就霸凌人數這麼多第二個更嚇人了每一年五年來每一年都跳一倍不只沒有減少嚴不嚴重那為什麼沒辦法處理到底出什麼事所以現在我們為什麼要有那麼多的機制希望把這個事情做一個處理畢竟我再給你看一個數字"},{"start":386.578,"end":406.831,"text":"我調的資料,有中央政府,有地方機關,有各級學校各級學校人是最多的嘛,對不對?那地方政府跟中央差不多你知道哪一個這三個單位中央政府是最嚴重的,霸凌的事件是最多的嚴重到什麼程度?申請的件數是5年,569件"},{"start":413.359,"end":427.443,"text":"成立的就有92件我統計就是每一位在中央政府包括今天列起的很多官員在中央政府中央政府上班的一萬人裡面就有29個人來申訴說他被霸凌了至少有接近5個人是成立的我們的政府怎麼對得起我們的公務員呢"},{"start":437.878,"end":446.64,"text":"我們之前看到了我們很悲傷勞動部那麼年輕那麼努力一個年輕人生命消失了結果我們現在把這個掀開來看整個政府這樣怎麼對得起我們的公務員呢我們在法令上在職場上或者他申訴的時候我們提供什麼保護嗎"},{"start":459.804,"end":473.283,"text":"在考試院的這個保訓會的有關於公務人員保障法我們會跟他來進行比較更實質上看怎麼樣修法讓他對公務員的保障可以更好所以必須對"},{"start":474.69,"end":486.074,"text":"今天我拿出來應該是全台灣第一次有人拿出這樣的數據 對不對第一遍我們終於具體化 知道每一年都在倍數的成長我也很具體跟你講 每一萬人 29位員工 公務員申訴說他被霸凌了 這麼多位都是成立的 這很嚴重 我們一定要徹底的去解決"},{"start":498.083,"end":517.7,"text":"我更跟他講為什麼要急我跟他講速度不能慢你不要讓這個行政院長左右動態左右院長跳票很多案子你說又有一百多個申訴嘛對不對我笑的這個禮拜我又拿到一個案子我聽了這個霸凌這個狀況老實講我心裡是非常難過的這是中友一個他說我以一百一十二年開始啊廉政署外派到他們中友單位的政風處一個長官"},{"start":528.395,"end":540.971,"text":"辱罵他一個女孩子罵人家說用下賤的賤去罵他還威脅他說不會讓你升等你考記一定是平等那他往上申訴啊政風處長還一直偏袒當然我們不會只有聽一面"},{"start":545.935,"end":567.043,"text":"所以明天我會召開協調會我也請他去你們這個拜領專線去申訴好不好這個案子很嚴重這個不是只有罵人家弄到後來員工都要去看身心科了都有自殺的傾向我們不要再遺憾的事情發生好不好他是現在進行所以速度要快所以最後我具體要求我們請"},{"start":571.673,"end":586.739,"text":"人事總署行政院這邊要有一個很明確的各個部會在最近這五年不是只有給我剛剛統計的數目字我要你比較明確的這些案件你後來處理的狀況是什麼樣子 好不好"},{"start":587.914,"end":602.148,"text":"要知道你的處理狀況是什麼樣子另外更重要,我們要趕快建立一個可以立即處理的不要再牛步化了不要每次都要拖一個月、兩個月都不會付錢你對被害者是要保護的"},{"start":603.246,"end":625.054,"text":"前幾天我們剛剛通過吹哨者保護法它是一個很重要的反貪腐嘛 對不對其實也是一個反霸凌很重要的啊有人出來打抱不平說我的同事或者我被霸凌了現在很好 吹哨者保護法已經過了他們會保護你 你的身份是不會被洩漏的如果違法的 洩漏他秘密的最高可以抓去關 關五年而且不能隨便給你調職"},{"start":626.767,"end":649.149,"text":"這個救濟的措施都是有的那更重要的是你剛剛講的科技營養人事總署我們的公務員保障法趕快好好修好不好趕快好好修現在很空洞我們現在整個公務員那個那個保障是太空洞了一定要對於我們的被害者保護一定要做好而且要給救濟的機制好不好好 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十來萬到十六萬那你原本就已經供不應求了你現在又多增加這樣十幾萬的需求那就是會搶供嘛對 所以就是我們現在擔心我們現在擔心的事情就是原本就已經緊繃而且本來就有一些重症的家庭他現在要找就難度就比較大或有點困擾了但在這個修法之後這個現象又會再更加劇對"},{"start":391.231,"end":410.168,"text":"對,那移工也會不會,他原本在這邊已經兩三年在顧好他應顧的這個僱主的情況之下,但是因為他顧的可能就,就是負了長照的這樣一個需求者,長期身體心理自己沒辦法治理的,簡單講啦,然後他看到有牙健康有健康的,他能不能馬上去總管僱主?"},{"start":411.777,"end":438.085,"text":"基本上當然他會有些可能會要求轉換但是這個當然涉及到其實契約的部分所以這是為什麼我們說其實對這重症的家庭來說可能更不容易留住契約契約就可以保障他不去轉換僱主嗎他會不會有一些事情就有一些衝突就有一些怎麼樣的一個情況他去掌握的情況他就要求轉換僱主那你又不得不讓他轉換這樣的事情你們評估過嗎"},{"start":441.399,"end":466.27,"text":"這有在我們的擔憂裡面我的時間有限啦部長我這邊有三個衝擊的評估報告我希望你們可能要很快的速度來做出來然後提交給委員會來做參考好不好123剛剛都特別提到了我到現在會長這個樣子請部長一個星期可不可以這個也不能拖我們會很快來做可是一個星期真的很太短兩個星期"},{"start":467.469,"end":495.311,"text":"可不可以給我們一個月你的速度應該是兩個星期就OK了再加一個星期給你好不好可不可以給我們一個月好了一個月好請回好謝謝你要趕快應應了好不好我們其實會非常審慎的盡速來應應可是因為這涉及到跨部會對不起好請回來下一步我們有吳司長還有人事處的陳專委還有國簽署的薛專委請問這個司長今天有看過這個讓我們招委排這個主題嗎"},{"start":496.952,"end":522.04,"text":"有嘛你知道這一波的公部門霸凌案除了勞動部勞化署第二部門就是你們海洋國立海洋生物博物館對不對國際博物館好那我真的看你們報告看不出你們友善職場是在什麼地方我請教一下市長知道什麼叫員工協助方案嗎知道知道嗎對那你們怎麼編你清楚吧你說預算嗎對這個部分"},{"start":524.734,"end":544.301,"text":"預算你們人事處應該要非常清楚所以你們把人事處的陳專委找的是正確的這邊回覆委員因為我們那個就是有關員工學術方案我們教育部本身是都每年都有編列相關的預算那預算差不多就是那個都大概落在40到50萬中間是不是這樣你看一下這個明細表是不是這樣教育部50體育署14清華署4國家圖書館3國家教育研究院21萬對不對"},{"start":553.24,"end":557.509,"text":"我就不再贅述了嘛 是不是這樣你們這一部所屬的相關的單位就是這麼編嘛"},{"start":559.191,"end":585.586,"text":"所屬單位的部分這邊我比較沒有辦法直接做確認那不過就是說因為基本上來講所謂那個就是有關員工協助方案的那個經費就是來自於就是說一方面就是編列相關的運算一方面就是在現有的運算裡面去做運資跟調配那這邊先跟委員做個說明謝謝好所以你沒把我掌握嘛那我就提醒市長跟你做參考你們花生霸凌的那個單位就是沒有編"},{"start":587.369,"end":596.739,"text":"你們不只那個單位叫國立海洋生物博物館沒有編你們還有一大堆都沒有編國簽署國立自然科學博物館國立科學工藝博物館國立台灣圖書館還十幾個單位"},{"start":600.373,"end":626.178,"text":"已經發生這樣的事情的你們在114年度的預算裡面竟然沒有呈現出來我兩年前從總統府到五院還有各部會我都特別要求如果你們員工協助方案沒有辦法編出來很抱歉在總預算最後協商過程裡面我會針對各個機關我會要求院長來做看怎麼處置我絕對不會不能夠去理解說教育部到現在還不曉得這個事情"},{"start":627.745,"end":650.659,"text":"我沒有辦法理解這邊跟委員做個說明就是說因為相關的預算就是說基本上來講確實就是說因為是由各單位來編列然後陳如委員所看到的就是說他們應該是說有關員工學術方案有些是有那個編列專款來運用有些是用自己單位內的業務費來使用倒不是說是沒有那如果說這些相關的資料所以你們還是在還是在兩年前三年前的那種模式有編就好不一定要呈現這個科目出來"},{"start":657.023,"end":666.473,"text":"所以藏在什麼地方,放在什麼地方,有編就好嘛,對不對?你問衛護部跟勞動部,看他們敢不敢這樣編嘛,你自己問看嘛你自己問看嘛,你問司範醫,你去問行政醫,你去問立法院醫看這樣編嗎?每逢你告就報這樣編就對了,最好就教育示範"},{"start":679.858,"end":683.064,"text":"你今天在報告專懷針對教師法33條均與建立教師諮商輔導支持體系大家針對教師啦專論的啦代理的啦"},{"start":689.628,"end":710.001,"text":"公立幼兒園教保人員學校校長滿足教師抒壓減壓等等提升這個學生受教的品質那國教署的同仁呢國教署不用編其他的這個管中心國家運動科學中心不用編藝術台灣藝術教育館不用編然後放在散落到其他的科目裡面我們怎麼去檢視"},{"start":712.728,"end":727.643,"text":"我們怎麼知道你對你的同仁一個人可以動用幾次然後每一個同仁到底是多少的一個額度可以去做員工協助方案你跟我講啊你叫我怎麼看因為時間的問題"},{"start":733.305,"end":760.611,"text":"你可能沒辦法回答我嘛市長你是不是要帶回去跟部長講一下這事情在遇上協商的時候我絕對會處理我一定我一定會出席好不好那我這邊特別拜託召委了教育部這個報告可能要重寫吧一周內重新提交好謝謝請回最後一個請邱部長部長元旦第一天據媒體報導去年醫學中心疲倦的結果呼之欲出衛部預計近期公告這個報導確實吧"},{"start":763.831,"end":791.472,"text":"沒有錯吧已經在跑程序了已經在跑程序所以即將公告了對不對好但是每次提到醫學中心我本期都感到非常的難過如果依照這個分區的業務劃分部長可以看嘛這六區台北區最多的嘛13這個整體加起來其他五區加起來都還沒有台北區的大萬一台灣發生了重要狀況的時候是在北部可能醫學中心台北區的醫學中心都動彈不得的情況之下"},{"start":792.472,"end":808.997,"text":"重症及重症人要怎麼處置這是一個資源分配的不當的情況史然然後我的母鄉雲林被劃在藍區那藍區兩個都在台南縣市然後對雲家家而言實在是"},{"start":810.56,"end":830.073,"text":"那種趕扣應該因為部長曾經到台大雲乳豐厭那個整個是基礎算是你打下來的你要非常清楚整個車程、軸距、黃金治療、救援時間基本上我們都要比人家長所以我們那個另外一面叫做黃金治療、搶救時間我們就不叫黃金了,我們叫白銀了所以要怎麼處理要怎麼處理讓像陳如所講的均衡嘛資源要均衡嘛"},{"start":840.795,"end":868.409,"text":"這個資源均衡的情況之下有沒有思考到我們台大雲林分院我們是兩個分院一個斗六一個湖北然後未來在已經有合定111億的機會給台大湖北分院來擴建現在是因為這個這個財政收支換物只管收不管吃會不會有相關的排擠會不會有所謂的延後那不管如何我們還是尊舉到努力一定在時間內要到位啊要讓它可以如期發包嘛"},{"start":869.619,"end":871.817,"text":"那雲林有沒有這個機會 台大雲林分院"},{"start":873.376,"end":901.368,"text":"我想非常感謝劉委員過去對雲林的醫療資源真的是用盡了苦心特別在台大雲林分院帶領之下所有的院所其實都增加了很多的醫療資源台大雲林分院兩個從德六園區到湖北園區尤其是不管是在燙傷的加護病房也是劉委員爭取的那這個醫療大樓"},{"start":902.768,"end":924.848,"text":"也是爭取的,而且他旁邊還有一個高齡醫學國家市高齡醫學濟健康物質研究中心這個也是,這真的是謝謝部長的肯定的額外這些整個來講,他的還有裡面的宿主,台大以前台大附近比較早期的確是"},{"start":926.249,"end":955.211,"text":"人力比較不足 現在的人力各方面都非常的充值所以真的是可以擔當 引領的一個非常醫療的守護神謝謝部長 感動了部長你可以看這個表格 你看完之後我不曉得你會不會再感動全台醫學中心的分部一個台北區一個台北區的總統等於五區加起來都不及一個台北區因為過去的這種資源的分配已經出了很嚴重的問題"},{"start":956.434,"end":966.564,"text":"真的有勞你要當部長的時候可以快速的改善這樣的一個資源分配的不公平嘛台北區是13 其他五區加起來是12這是很奇怪的分佈就對了我也不知道以前的部長到底為什麼做到這麼不讓人感動所以拜託國務隊你做來讓人感動一下好不好"},{"start":978.576,"end":999.872,"text":"這個是長久以來一直在台北區一直大掩蓋然後早期就一直通過醫學中心所以變成這樣子我們當然要顧及到其他醫學中心比較少的地方他們人民的一個"},{"start":1001.173,"end":1020.621,"text":"需求跟希望還有就是他們的服務員遼闊如果以原來的兩百萬一家的話其實當然這裡是也超過的早就超過了 早就超過了人口比例也都不應該是如此是不是說我們應該整體性來考量 當然我們在"},{"start":1022.657,"end":1047.472,"text":"醫院的評鑑制度的一個改革小組也是明年會開始來啟動但是醫學中心是四年評估一次評鑑一次立委也是四年選一次總統也是四年選一次但是沒有每一次都能夠選得上也不一定都一定可以連任所以我特別拜託部長我們沒有這麼多四年"},{"start":1048.894,"end":1076.33,"text":"是不是就趁這一次這個藍區的雲林嘉義縣是雲嘉嘉這三個縣市都沒有的到現在都沒有連一個準醫學中心都沒有所以賴總統講的均衡台灣拜託這一次我們就把它實際上應用吧讓醫學中心可以在藍區裡面讓這三個縣市有一所醫學中心我想我這樣要求不為過"},{"start":1079.186,"end":1086.097,"text":"因為醫解中心去年增加兩家那監察院又一截"},{"start":1088.444,"end":1111.515,"text":"他對那個地方在增加 監察院有意見我們要鼓掌說肯定監察院啊但是對這個地方對藍區這個地方增加我想監察院不至於有什麼意見吧因為我們等太久了我們等了四年四年四年已經等了N年以上了嘛N次以上了拜託部長好不好謝謝部長努力啦 支持七月份的時候你有下去全台大的很多的朋友對你"},{"start":1112.915,"end":1125.603,"text":"抱著非常高的期待我也一樣 全雲林人 嘉義縣人 嘉義市人你也是自己人 拜託謝謝希望做出雲家家 你的故鄉的人有更多更大的感動謝謝部長 感動部長 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杨栋梁"},{"start":2142.264,"end":2151.09,"text":"好請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員11人已足法定人數好我們現在開始開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":2158.038,"end":2174.332,"text":"立法院第11届第二会期内政委员会第19次全体委员会议议事录时间113年12月30日星期一上午9时11分至下午5时10分地点红楼202会议室出席委员苏巧慧委员等14人练习委员郑正前委员等9人"},{"start":2174.952,"end":2189.794,"text":"列席官員客家委員會主任委員古秀飛暨相關人員財團法人客家公共傳播基金會董事長陳邦整暨相關人員中央選舉委員會主任委員李靖勇暨相關人員行政院主計總處公務預算處專門委員李易榮主席徐昭基委員新穎"},{"start":2190.675,"end":2199.7,"text":"3.继续审查114年度中央政府总预算案关于中央选举委员会及所属单位预算。4.继续审查114年度中央政府总预算案关于中央选举委员会及所属单位预算。"},{"start":2210.987,"end":2234.894,"text":"讨论事项一二和并询答客家委员会主任委员股秀飞报告委员苏巧慧等15人提出质询均经客家委员会主任委员股秀飞及相关人员及其答复说明登记发言委员除不在场者外其余均已发言完并询答结束为其答复部分请相关机关于一周内另以书面答复并复制本会权益已审查114年度中央政府总预算案关于客家委员会及所属部分"},{"start":2236.054,"end":2255.095,"text":"税务部分第二款第三款第四款均照列第七款其他收入第十五项客家委员会及所属804万元增列第一幕杂项收入220万元其余均照列改列为1024万元税务部分第二款行政院主管第十项客家委员会及所属43亿7036万4千元照列"},{"start":2257.478,"end":2272.008,"text":"本项提案五案保留提案内容请参阅本项通过决议三十项请参阅二审查客家委员会含送财团法人客家公共传播基金会一百一十四年度预算书案总收入总支出及于处军照列通过决议一项"},{"start":2272.708,"end":2297.088,"text":"三审查一百一十四年度中央政府总预算案关于中央选举文会及所属部分税务部分第二款第四款第七款均照列税处部分第二款行政院主管第十一项中央选举文会及所属原列四亿八千六百六十六万三千元简列第一幕一般行政向下基本行政工作维持费一百零七万一千元含业务费之特别费七万一千元"},{"start":2297.648,"end":2316.342,"text":"第二幕選舉業務三百萬元共計減列四百零七萬一千元其餘均照列改列為四億八千二百五十九萬二千元本項通過決議十九項請參閱四一百四十四年度中央政府總預算案關於客家文匯及所屬部分審查玩具領據審查報告含送財政委員會提報院會"},{"start":2317.122,"end":2335.466,"text":"五財團法人客家公共傳播基金會一百一十四年度預算書案審查完均拟據審查報告提報院會公決不需交由黨團協商並推請徐昭記委員心營與院會討論時做補充說明六一百一十四年度中央政府總預算案關於中央選舉委員會及所屬部分審查完均拟據審查報告含送財政委員會提報院會"},{"start":2338.467,"end":2351.057,"text":"其他事項一項決議本案採記名表決方式表決結果在場委員呼喊主席十三人贊成者六人反對者七人反對者多數本案不通過宣讀完畢好請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤好請李博義委員"},{"start":2378.583,"end":2401.931,"text":"謝謝我尊重主席的排案那剛宣讀的會議紀錄這個是78次的會議議事錄在我們去年也就是12月30號開會的時候已經表決有確認過那我們的臨時提案被否決但是我還是尊重主席今天的排案今天排案排行政院所屬人員涉嫌霸凌專案報告"},{"start":2403.892,"end":2425.767,"text":"我希望行政院是不是可以真的有主席同意行政院把上次12月18號沒有報告的內容一併來提出報告可不可以謝謝好啊可以好那請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤沒有沒有錯誤議事錄確定那我們繼續進行報告事項與討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":2433.53,"end":2458.798,"text":"報告事項請行政院秘書長率同所屬就行政院所屬人員涉嫌霸凌案件處置請行專題報告並被質詢討論事項一繼續審查一百一十四年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院部分二繼續審查一百一十四年度中央政府總預算案關於大陸委員會單位預算三繼續審查大陸委員會韓送財團法人海沙交流基金會一百一十四年度預算書案"},{"start":2460.659,"end":2467.402,"text":"4.繼續審查大陸委員會韓送財團法人台港經濟文化合作策經會114年度預算書案宣讀完畢好那我們接下來來介紹在場的委員以及列席官員那我們在場的委員有張志倫委員還有黃婕委員黃美惠委員蘇巧惠委員"},{"start":2490.171,"end":2511.798,"text":"李博毅委員好那我們在場的列席的官員好我們首先我們行政院的秘書長龔明欣龔秘書長還有行政院法規會的主委沈淑菲沈主委還有"},{"start":2514.147,"end":2538.7,"text":"我們這個今天還有各個單位本席因為時間關係就不一一介紹那特別再介紹就是我們有在場有打擊詐欺指揮中心的指揮官也是內政部次長馬世元次長還有行政院主計總處公務預算處的專門委員廖玉琳廖專委好"},{"start":2543.49,"end":2560.231,"text":"好那我們現在進行報告那請行政院龔明欣秘書長來報告除了今天的專題報告之外也應李博義委員的這個要求就我們上次的業務報告跟預算報告請秘書長來報告請秘書長"},{"start":2570.466,"end":2589.473,"text":"謝謝主席主席以及各位委員各位女士先生那今天各委員會安排行政院就行政院所屬人員涉及霸凌案件的處置情形專庭報告以及繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算有關於行政院的部分"},{"start":2590.39,"end":2603.536,"text":"本人在此先代表本院以及向各位委員表達深切的謝意感謝各位委員的辛勞以及長期以來對本院各項行政措施的指教"},{"start":2605.219,"end":2620.297,"text":"那對於近期政府各機關內有關於職場霸凌的傳聞本院是十分的重視那行政院卓院長也在第一個時間裡面明確的要求中央政府各機關要以最嚴謹的態度"},{"start":2622.959,"end":2643.095,"text":"清查機關內是否有霸凌的行為以及最快的速度完成調查依法來處理同時就機關內市場霸凌防治的機制也展開全面性的檢討加強員工的保護讓所有機關的首長以及所屬的同仁可以一起在友善的環境中裡面推動政務"},{"start":2644.763,"end":2668.957,"text":"為國家跟社會人民做出更多的貢獻以下僅就本院及所屬機關整體的經濟情形還有專責通報平台的建置以及本院院本部有關於霸凌個案的處理進行向各位委員來做一個報告有關於公部門職場霸凌的精進作為上面首先針對於積極檢討研擬強化的法制作業"},{"start":2670.12,"end":2697.486,"text":"那我想為了建構健康友善的這個職場環境為了避免同仁在執行職務時遭受到身體或精神的不法侵害基本上各機關應該提供員工免受霸凌侵害的這個職場那麼按照這個公務人員保障法以下我們稱為保障法以及第19條以及公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法以下我們稱為"},{"start":2698.726,"end":2716.033,"text":"安慰辦法的第三條的相關的意思呢事實上人事總署呢已經多次的要求各機關應該以上開的相關的規範還有自治的相關的申訴處理的流程來辦理職長霸凌防治的事業並且由各主管機關督導所屬的機關來落實"},{"start":2719.212,"end":2739.682,"text":"第二個我們為了強化各機關職長霸凌的防治的處理機制也就是人事總署在113年的11月20號已經通函各機關針對現行的相關的作業規定完成強化員工的保護還有縮短調查時程落實執行相關的檢討"},{"start":2742.728,"end":2766.988,"text":"再者呢 近期公務人員保障以及培訓以及培訓的委員會 也就是保訓會以及勞動部等相關的法治主管機關也在檢討相關的這個法令措施人事總署也積極的通盤檢討現行的機制還有收集實務的案例那後續呢 也會會通相關的這個法治主管機關來強化相關的法治機制"},{"start":2769.807,"end":2786.827,"text":"第二在提升公務人員的職業安全方面首先在現行的這個法制架構的強化的相關防護塊公務人員職場安全與保障法裡面已經有明顯的這樣的相關的法制的規範跟它的架構"},{"start":2788.12,"end":2813.193,"text":"那這樣的架構之下事實上本院已經決定將跟考試院研擬修法的相關的事例來強化那保訓會已經延續了安慰辦法的修正草案修正重點包括了增訂主管機關德設公務人員執行植物安全衛生的諮詢會以及機關安全跟衛生防護委員會"},{"start":2814.494,"end":2830.891,"text":"那來任務的這個職責事項另外呢針對高風險植物人員特別防護的專節以及監督檢查科則的相關規定並在113年8月12號呢已經函成考試院院會來審議"},{"start":2833.391,"end":2850.871,"text":"來強化公務人員職場霸凌防治機制保訓會將會重新檢討保障法跟安慰辦法本院也會跟考試院來研擬相關的一些作業第三點是有關於提供心理健康的支持及時提供關懷跟諮詢"},{"start":2854.173,"end":2877.741,"text":"針對職長霸凌的事件除了要啟動相關的調查程序之外各機關也應該及時的提供員工的協助方案關懷的措施如果依當事人的意願主動的提供心理諮商的管道還有相關的法律或醫療的諮詢的機構同時也可以視情況來進行工作的調整或者是職務的輪調"},{"start":2879.571,"end":2904.693,"text":"第二個呢 整合跟推廣心理健康的資源除了我們機關內部的這個心理諮商的資源之外呢事實上我們也可以透過外部整合外部的相關的包括自殺防治或優異症心理健康的資源來強化同仁在職場上心理健康防護的網絡提升多元的諮商管道還有意見反應窗口的可進性"},{"start":2906.154,"end":2923.243,"text":"並且培養同仁正向求助的觀念第三個是加強友善職場觀念的宣導本院持續的督促各機關多元的宣導跟教育來強化友善職場的一些觀念"},{"start":2924.568,"end":2945.516,"text":"那第二大項是有關於建立院程級的職場霸凌的通報平台人事總署已經在113年12月13號完成建置了職場霸凌通報的平台提供公務人員除了在機關內部的申訴的管道之外另外還有外部的申訴管道那平台接獲的這個"},{"start":2946.556,"end":2963.768,"text":"案件的通報以後將經過加密的措施轉交權責機關依保密的規定相關來做處理並且在三天之內要回報出戶受理的情況一個月之內要回報處理的結果當然必要的時候可以再延一個月"},{"start":2965.061,"end":2985.88,"text":"由該總署進行案件的追蹤列管平台如果接到了沒有具名的通報申訴案件也會檢視它的內容轉交權責機關依相關的規定來審認處理本院透過平台來適時了解機關霸凌申訴的通報情形喊請主管機關加強來督導"},{"start":2988.749,"end":3014.491,"text":"第三大項是有關於我們院本部處理個案的一些狀況本院院本部已經按照人事總署的標準作業流程建議的作為在員工協助方案裡面實施了定定的危機個案以及職場霸凌的處理流程並且宣導以及訓練提供員工遭受到職場霸凌的申訴跟保護的機制"},{"start":3015.931,"end":3029.281,"text":"按照昨院長的指示,全面檢討職場霸凌作業本院院本部也另外訂定了行政院院本部員工職場霸凌方式與處理的作業要點並且在113年12月3日已經發布生效"},{"start":3033.342,"end":3056.012,"text":"那本院的院本部員工如果需要有心理諮商的需求那除了可以人事處安排跟院本部的特約的心理諮商師來務談之外呢也可以直接向院本部的特約的心理諮商中心來線上出談或者是預約相關的這個諮商服務"},{"start":3057.414,"end":3063.411,"text":"第四項有關於院本部發生疑似職場霸凌的個案的一些處理情形"},{"start":3064.653,"end":3088.547,"text":"那麼按照院本部的員工職場霸凌的處理罪要點如果是具名通報那我們就會立案來做調查如果是匿名檢舉或媒體批漏的案件我們則由兩位的外聘委員跟一位的內部委員組成的因應小組來做初步的了解並且根據他的這個陳述的內容來判斷是否立案"},{"start":3090.058,"end":3112.063,"text":"本院日本部疑似發生職場霸凌的事件經過媒體披露的大概有三件分別是消保署的處長公關處處長跟秘書處處長來涉嫌疑似涉嫌職場霸凌後面兩件陸續經由立法委員來函也關切第三件也由其他的機關機關來函轉"},{"start":3114.224,"end":3125.767,"text":"另外我們內部循我們管道正式提起申訴的也有三件不過這三件跟每一批鋪路的基本上是有一些重疊的所以我們併案來做一些處理"},{"start":3127.162,"end":3145.31,"text":"那其中呢消保署的案件的部分已經立案調查那現在也在正在調查處理當中那有些案件大概已經調查到一個段落不過在行政的流程當中那有些還在調查當中那我們預計在一個月裡面要完成公佈對外採訪說明"},{"start":3147.211,"end":3160.581,"text":"那有關於公關處的部分呢就因應小組就案情因為這個是媒體鋪路的那初步的了解以後我們也正式的立案調查那同樣的是一個月以後希望來過完成"},{"start":3162.262,"end":3190.668,"text":"那有關於密疏處的是媒體鋪路之前呢基本上我們已經收到以這個職工工友駕駛以下我們簡稱工員的名義匿名來做陳情那因為他是一個匿名的陳情的職長霸凌那麼我們為了釐清的事實那本院的院本部也開始啟動了這個行政調查來為了解事實的真相那麼經過訪談了大概十多位的院內的相關同仁之後呢"},{"start":3191.508,"end":3217.636,"text":"那沒有查到比較具體的案的事證另外呢祕書處的59位的公員他也連署說明了該陳情案是一個不實的指控想要假借公員的名義來進行抹灰破壞公員的名義所以上述的這個行政調查結果我們也先提報了行政院本部的職場霸凌申訴的評議委員會來做報告跟被查那各位先進"},{"start":3219.744,"end":3241.838,"text":"我們認為文官擁有長期累積的專業知識行政經驗跟法事精神是國家保持正常運作的穩定力量也是推動政府各項措施穩健落實的核心力那近期的職長霸凌事件雖然使得文官體系還有公務人員受到一些斬傷但是無論中央跟地方"},{"start":3243.219,"end":3265.351,"text":"職務跟職等文官永遠是國家的基石人民的依靠本院一定會謹守落實賴總統所揭示的我們要努力改變過去被視為理所當然的職場文化更要杜絕職場上各種形式的霸凌來度數更健康進步的公務跟勞動環境以上報告敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":3266.492,"end":3279.703,"text":"並且也支持本院的院本部110年預算那我預算的部分是不是也一併簡要的說明一下是不是對就是上次沒有說明的包含行政院的業務報告還有預算"},{"start":3283.426,"end":3304.019,"text":"謝謝那我就補充報告就是說那有關於這個本院在114年施政的重點還有預算的籌編的情形那就以下向各位來做一些報告那有關於預算的部分目前我首先報告一下113年度已經執行的這個情形那以當時來講我們113年稅務是"},{"start":3308.442,"end":3313.809,"text":"總共是2284億367萬7千元截至11月底為止累積的分配數是來到了1815億1952萬3千元"},{"start":3327.405,"end":3345.592,"text":"佔了整個分配數的百分之百就是說已經有按照進度來執行有關於稅出的預算113年度稅出總共是14億2191萬9千元截至到去年的11月為止累計的分配數也達到了93.19%"},{"start":3350.274,"end":3366.991,"text":"以下來說明一下就是有關於114年度編列的重點114年度有關於稅務的部分我們總共編了兩千億三千四百五十六萬四千元比這個113年度的預算簡列了"},{"start":3371.495,"end":3373.937,"text":"283億6911萬3000元那主要是因為國發基金他的剩餘繳庫減少了283億左右所呈現的結果"},{"start":3386.943,"end":3395.127,"text":"那有關於稅租的預算的部分呢114年度呢那運輪部編列的預算大概是15億3364萬6千元那比113年度呢增列了1億172萬7千元主要是在增加人事費大概5千多萬"},{"start":3410.646,"end":3439.42,"text":"那还有另外还有各支办的甄列还有资讯系统的扩充还有办公空间的一些档案库的改善作业等等的一些相关情况那简单的向各位作业说明有关于第一个是一般行政的部分编列的11亿8千11亿844万6千元主要是人事经费还有基本的行政的维持费"},{"start":3440.848,"end":3460.103,"text":"那第二項就是施政跟法制作業處的部分編列了1488萬5000元主要是辦理的政策跟法規的研議等等相關事務第三個是施政推展的聯繫編列了615萬主要是行政院行使職權相關必要的支出"},{"start":3461.364,"end":3488.559,"text":"第四項是有關於聯合服務業務編列的3788萬7千元主要是督導還有協調整合中部南部東部雲嘉蘭還有金馬地區的聯合服務的相關事宜第五個是災防跟國土安全編列的1575萬7千元主要是針對災防的部分或是國土安全的相關的一些業務推動"},{"start":3490.882,"end":3502.025,"text":"那第六項是有關於性平業務那編列了1627萬3000元主要是辦理相關性平業務的政策的綱領還有相關的事務上的一些推動"},{"start":3504.158,"end":3526.093,"text":"第七項是消保跟食安那編列了大概1432萬5000元那主要辦理的相關消費者保護或者是食品安全的相關業務那第八項是資訊管理編列了6,899萬主要是辦理行政資訊系統還有設備的更新還有治安的防護的擴充等等"},{"start":3527.421,"end":3537.756,"text":"第九項是新聞傳播業務總共編列了5195萬9千元主要是辦理本院的新聞發布還有重大的政策宣導相關的事務"},{"start":3539.192,"end":3564.762,"text":"第十項是人權及轉型正義編列了一千三百一十五萬主要是辦理人權保障轉型的相關的業務上的推動第十一項是個資籌備業務編列了一億兩千一百五十一萬六千元主要辦理相關個資的一些個資委員會的相關的籌設還有組織法的相關嚴厲等等一些相關推動"},{"start":3566.141,"end":3569.824,"text":"那第12項是一般建築還有設備編列的6050萬8000元主要辦理辦公空間改善還有檔案庫的一些補強作業等等"},{"start":3577.95,"end":3595.43,"text":"第十三項是第一的預備金按照上年度的編列一樣是380萬那我們希望透過這樣的一些編列以後可以提升我們施政的一些績效主要有幾個方面希望我們可以提升議事的功能強化施政的目標"},{"start":3596.991,"end":3624.308,"text":"提升法规的品质增进的是个溯源的功能第三个提供单一的窗口落实照顾各区域就是中部南部东部云加兰还有金马地区的民众的服务第四项是凝聚全民防灾的意识强化灾害应变跟风险管理的体系第五项是整合的国土安全通报还有应变机制强化关键基础设施的防务韧性"},{"start":3625.909,"end":3649.512,"text":"第六是推广性贫的观念引进融合性贫的理念第七是父权消费者完备消费者的保护机制落实消费者保护的相关权益第八是精进台湾食品安全跟管理的通路持续的推动五环2.0的食安政策建立可信赖的食品安全"},{"start":3650.613,"end":3667.901,"text":"第九是漸進更新設備系統提升資訊的效能跟治安的防護第十是善盡政府政策的溝通讓民眾了解政府的政策跟事件作為第十一項是完善人權的保障機制"},{"start":3668.921,"end":3688.272,"text":"國家的轉型正義很重要的工作那第12項是籌設個人資料保護委員會那推動各自的保護相關工作那以上是本院在114年度施政的重點還有預算編列的主要內容那我想這個部分就請各位委員來做指教以上報告"},{"start":3701.032,"end":3721.925,"text":"好我们现在来进行询答委员质询之前原理做几点宣告第一个本会的委员发言时间4分钟必要时得延长2分钟非本会委员发言4分钟那上午10点30分截止发言登记"},{"start":3722.825,"end":3736.73,"text":"那今天如果有臨時提案請於11點之前提出是本會議詢答完成後處理那我們現在進行詢答我們邀請第一位的蘇巧慧委員好 謝謝主席我們請國民署長"},{"start":3751.954,"end":3753.615,"text":"請光臨署長署委員早安署長好署長很高興在你剛剛專題報告完之後還有機會可以就上次沒有報告到的行政院的相關事務可以進行說明和報告因為只有清楚的說明全部的認真大家討論之後我們才可以就行政院的業務來做一個了解討論並且就今天的預算案"},{"start":3782.078,"end":3805.935,"text":"來互相的這種看看到底是要怎麼樣的斟酌考慮所以其實認真開會那真的是非常的有必要那也希望是一個大家在和平相處然後能夠互相表述意見很可惜現在的立法院越來越不是這樣因為現在的立法院直接就是看起來人數多的黨"},{"start":3807.196,"end":3832.672,"text":"把所有的权力尽量的扩张收纳到自己的独大的立法权里面所以不断的在削弱行政权扩张立法权这就是这段时间以来的状况嘛那我想行政院呢作为一个相对应的机关你们是不是也应该对这一段时间以来的种种法案争议性的法案扩权立法权扩张的法案"},{"start":3833.192,"end":3856.413,"text":"是不是應該也有個態度和表示今天在這裡是不是可以請秘書長就行政院的態度做一個簡短的表述是 謝謝委員那我想行政院對這三個法的態度事實上我們是非常關心的那這中間的討論過程當中我們希望說如果朝野可以達成一些共識的話那我們當然行政機關是依法辦理那"},{"start":3858.035,"end":3882.528,"text":"當然就誠如剛剛委員提到的很多並沒有經過比較充分的討論所以我們的確發現就是說就我們行政部門來講如果真正的按照這樣的法律來實施恐怕有一些部分是比較自愛難行那我們會針對這個部分提出可能上的一些相關行政或法律上的一些救濟"},{"start":3883.428,"end":3886.769,"text":"秘書長您剛剛提到的朝野之間各自有不同的看法那也應該在朝野之間盡量要尋求共識可是我想以今天我在這裡質詢行政院這樣子的立場的話我也必須說其實"},{"start":3903.576,"end":3911.625,"text":"朝野不是只有在立法院之間的兩個黨團朝野三個黨團朝野之間的狀況我想行政院確實也應該要對現在的這些院紀紛爭能夠表達一個態度"},{"start":3918.913,"end":3931.141,"text":"這個態度不一定是強硬的直接壓過去的而是也要試著看看有沒有什麼其他的化解的狀況但如果會涉及到憲政秩序的底線我是認為行政院一定要把持著關於憲政秩序的這一條底線我想這才是國家之福我同意也就是說我再次重申我同意行政院可以有比較和緩的立場"},{"start":3943.969,"end":3952.839,"text":"來做朝野之間的討論但我認為憲政秩序的底線必須要守住這是本席對行政院的要求不曉得秘書長你認為這個態度您能夠接受嗎或者你有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":3958.69,"end":3976.343,"text":"剛剛特別提到了就是說如果我們發現裡面的一些條文對行政的推動上來講有自然難行的部分我們會尋求相關的一些救濟的一些方法那當然包括的您剛才提到的憲政上的爭議的部分我們會思考"},{"start":3976.963,"end":4004.038,"text":"好 那我想這個速度也是要掌握啦好 那其實今天因為是行政院的質詢的詢答嘛那我想除了行政院除了解決院級之間的紛爭之外在這個處理行政立法之間的互動之外其實行政院本身也要負責統籌底下的各部會所以我也是就另外一個我非常關心的例子來就行政院統籌各部會的這件事情跟您就教其實對我們人民日常生活來講"},{"start":4005.118,"end":4024.242,"text":"憲政秩序和日常生活日常生活坦白講比較有感那我以這個需要各部會統籌的部分來跟您就教的話我想講的是廢水的部分我想生活廢水的部分其實在行政院在這個中央跟地方政府的努力之下以新北市而言"},{"start":4024.742,"end":4042.174,"text":"本席也有爭取新北的各席立委也都努力爭取所以我們這幾年有很多的預算來協助中央和地方一起努力我們在生活廢水的部分生活廢水的部分其實公共污水下水道其實擴增了是相當的多現在在新北已經累計超過122萬戶普及率高達了72.46這是在處理公共污水道的部分可是很可惜的其實我們的廢水還有另外一個就是事業廢水"},{"start":4054.722,"end":4081.904,"text":"那這個事業廢水呢 其實它就不是在這個國土署這邊囉事業廢水 民主黨您知道事業廢水現在是由誰來管轄 同學事業廢水我們就希望如果它在各目的地亂機關尤其在工業區裡面希望它這個廢水可以處理好以後才排放出來對 所以你現在的狀況就是你希望它可以處理好才排放出來那如果它現在沒有的話 那要怎麼蓋"},{"start":4084.083,"end":4110.524,"text":"現在各工業區基本上大家都有專門的污水處理那是新的吧或者是還是有經濟部和這個國科會這邊所轄的專業的園區才有吧我給你看一個這個圖啊這其實有相當多的地方在都市密集區甚至工業密集區你看這個中心點這邊這個有一大塊就是沒有的地方嘛這地方就是顯然它一樣是工業區但卻沒有污水處理系統"},{"start":4113.866,"end":4139.336,"text":"這就是表示什麼呢是生活污水大家因為有統一明確的管轄機關所以他不見要預算給預算要施工給施工就下去了可是在事業廢水的部分卻因為我們只能夠督促他你要自己蓋喔你沒有蓋好的話我就是用來盤查檢查的方式那麼如果是既有的"},{"start":4139.776,"end":4153.813,"text":"工業用地的部分那到底要怎麼樣去統合有沒有辦法如同我們在蓋一般的公共污水下水道是用政府的力量下去做嘛那這就完全不一樣的效果啊Mirza你可以了解嗎"},{"start":4156.369,"end":4181.299,"text":"報委員我想這樣就是說因為我們中央政府管的不管你剛才講科學園區跟工業園區那個應該都沒有問題現在就是說有些民間籌設的民間型才是大部分那或者是說地方政府有一些籌設它面積比較小要成一個單獨的處理廢水可能比較困難那剛才委員提到了是不是有一個聯合什麼樣的形式來共同處理共同管溝那我想這個部分"},{"start":4181.579,"end":4205.11,"text":"其實我跟您修正一下,剛剛我們在講的就是經濟部、國會統合的工業區、產業園區是有的這沒有問題嘛,所以我們這個部分不再討論之內我們現在在討論的甚至不是只有地方政府所管轄的園區或者是,不是只有地方政府管轄的園區我講的不是只有園區,而是只要是工廠密集處"},{"start":4206.411,"end":4222.733,"text":"其實工廠密集處就是我們現在要主要要討論的事業費水的管理方式嘛處理方式那在這樣的地區要怎麼樣提升它的污水處理設備這就是今天要討論的部分嘛所以結論是什麼啦結論是"},{"start":4224.295,"end":4240.41,"text":"我認為行政院應該協調經濟部和內政部是不是能夠妥善處理事業廢水那這要怎麼妥善處理呢我認為第一步是全面盤點全國工業區的污水下水道系統這是第一個"},{"start":4241.05,"end":4264.902,"text":"第二個是要逐步建置聯合污水的處理設施所以這兩個部分到底未來的主管機關會是誰就是我今天要跟您就教的最大的重點你可以今天沒有答案但這個問題我們會繼續保持追蹤這就是需要行政院的高度去統籌各個部門讓現在沒有主管機關的單位能夠有明確的"},{"start":4268.224,"end":4292.991,"text":"負責人 然後他才有辦法下去推動這樣大片的事務這是我今天跟你討論的部分所以 麗讓我希望 現在是有一個專案小組在處理這樣那我想剛剛委員的意見我們會把這些意見好 我希望能夠有答案就下個會期之前是不是可以提供一個書面的目前的資料到我們辦公室我們就這個問題繼續討論好 謝謝"},{"start":4303.848,"end":4327.064,"text":"好 接著請張日輪委員好 謝謝主席有請行政院龔秘書長好 請龔秘書長"},{"start":4333.511,"end":4347.327,"text":"張委員早好秘書長今天是中華民國一百四年一月二號首先祝在座的各位委員同仁政府官員以及媒體朋友新年快樂希望大家在新的一年都可以平安健康"},{"start":4348.228,"end":4376.027,"text":"那昨天也是這個114年的元旦賴清德總統在總統府發表以民主厚實國力移向世界新局的新年談話總統府跟行政院的網站都有轉貼扣掉題目全文總共2975字很可惜沒有提到任何一次中華民國一次都沒有出現過所以本席要跟秘書長請教說希望說在這個"},{"start":4378.688,"end":4404.394,"text":"元旦發表談話的時候可能說中華民國還是我們的家沒有國就沒有家所以希望說各部會不要只有在單位預算上有寫中華民國四個字那總統的元旦談話也說立法院所通過的爭議法案行政院有權提出復議提供立法院重新審視的空間憲政機關也可以提示憲通過憲法法庭判決明確憲政分際維護憲政秩序鞏固"},{"start":4408.455,"end":4424.585,"text":"憲政體系所以我現在要請教秘書長就賴清德這麼有談話行政院是不是已經對於去113年12月20日我們所通過的憲訴法才化法跟拳霸法要提出復議有要提復議嗎"},{"start":4426.94,"end":4455.553,"text":"因為其中兩個法案基本上我們還沒收到文行政院還沒收到文所以要等到收到文看實際的內容是不是有自然難行的部分我們才可以進一步看要怎麼處理好那關於限訴法的部分今天行政院院會的確是有排一個議案是要提出覆遇不過最後的結果還是要行政院院會討論完結束以後決議以後才能夠確認這件事情好那我請問秘書長以限訴法提出覆遇的原因為何"},{"start":4456.533,"end":4476.412,"text":"因為限訴法的規定只是說從原有人數改成法定人數三分之二嘛您覺得提出附議的道理請您解釋這難道不是立法委員的職權嗎來請解釋就是說對行政部門來講的話通常在憲法法庭裡面我們要嘛就是被告的"},{"start":4477.281,"end":4503.955,"text":"我們通常是被告的很多因為現在有好幾百案正在在審理當中要嘛就是我們告人家的所以我們變成是當事人那如果當事人這個這個憲法的法庭他的運作如果沒有辦法運作的話那我們當事人我們的權益會受到一些傷害那您清楚總統評別大法官的名單被三黨全數否決嗎"},{"start":4505.54,"end":4525.269,"text":"我知道對啊那你在兩個月內趕快再提出大法官的人選就好啦所以你還是認為復議是有道理的還是你是接受到哪一位長官或是總統給你的下令沒有沒有沒有因為現在開行政院院會嘛他已經排入議程那就要看行政院院會處理的結果"},{"start":4526.223,"end":4550.958,"text":"來看好 這個秘書長還是希望說你們可以給一個完整的答覆為什麼限訴法你們認為要提附議有自愛難行之處其實大法官提好提滿是大家人民所能接受的不要是廢死大法官其實大家都可以接受這提醒秘書長第二個總統說才化法需要冷靜再思考為國家尋求長治久安之道請問何謂冷靜執政黨現在有版本出來了嗎"},{"start":4552.489,"end":4575.675,"text":"因為還是一樣就是說我們要收到這個正式的函文來以後我們才可以依據裡面的內容來做相關的判斷或處置但是大概有概略性的是有是有這個可能的影響是有做一些估算好因為最近大家其實媒體也吵得紛紛擾擾請問這個主計處有算出來這個財化法最後的結論的時候每個部會要各減28%的預算有算出來了嗎"},{"start":4582.039,"end":4585.705,"text":"這是主委總書提供的資料都預算出來了所以你們會自己先砍28%的預算每個部會 每個單位"},{"start":4588.613,"end":4612.386,"text":"沒有就是我剛才特別提到就是我們要看到正式的新聞以後才有辦法做更進一步的精算所以秘書長我覺得你今天的準備還是這個沒有很很充足啊所以我當然說希望當然希望說這個秘書長你要有肩膀那我總要問你一個問題就是說針對上次的內政委員會在12月18號下午4點當時這個我們"},{"start":4615.947,"end":4643.486,"text":"學信委員那時候砍了要開會當時有一位秘書長就是您第一個就到回到我們內政委員會坐在第一個位置我還記得那時候我拿起電話打電話說怎麼你一個人到場我那時候我看那個樣子好像你是說你怎麼只有一個人到場其他人都還沒到結果後來所有的行政院的官員才到現場請問你是後來好像聽媒體報導你接到一通電話就起身離開請問那通電話是誰打給您的"},{"start":4646.388,"end":4653.054,"text":"為什麼您到現場決定要開會而且還要打電話請大家回來以後是誰打給你通電話要求你要離開?是我辦公室同仁他是你下屬還是行政院長?"},{"start":4665.365,"end":4691.687,"text":"不是 就是我辦公室裡面的他是用什麼回覆回覆給你說要你離開他提醒我他是提醒我說現在是不是他要我確定說我會留在這邊還是因為我行政院有會議大家在等我回去開會他問我說好 所以你的意思是說有其他的其他的會議是比立法院請你提出相關預算的質詢還要重要那請問你是什麼會議他請我去"},{"start":4693.729,"end":4710.042,"text":"他請我確認就是說我要回去開會還是說要繼續留在這邊他沒有請你離開啊沒有 他誤我嘛他誤我說我要繼續留在這邊開會還是那你的回應是你要離開對 後來我決定要離開為什麼 離開的原因還是沒有回應對 我剛才特別提到的就是說這個"},{"start":4714.056,"end":4732.966,"text":"我在就是九點我就來八點多嘛我一直來一直等一直等等到了兩點多表定的這個會議結束以後那這時候的螢幕事實上還顯示會議尚未開始我離開的時候那時候已經兩點多了會議還沒有開始所以我就離開了我想說今天的議程就完畢了"},{"start":4734.307,"end":4760.435,"text":"等到後來等一下秘書長你前後矛盾你一開始說你的同仁打電話給你問你有沒有其他的回應你聽我講完後來徐昭偉他在就是徐昭偉在4點16分的時候他進入了那個好秘書長我跟你講我相信這等一下徐昭偉會親自問你因為這是你不尊重我們這個立政委員會的昭偉主席也有打給你可是你離開可是今天的重點專案報告是有關於這個"},{"start":4762.557,"end":4779.495,"text":"這個霸凌案的部分所以我想要請因為我希望行政院不要只會提呼籲霸凌案應該也要趕快來去處理針對最近幾個案子有關於這個秘書處的這個徐處長的事情現在我想要請教徐處長在嗎"},{"start":4788.168,"end":4803.479,"text":"好 秘書長要幫徐處長回答嗎我請教就媒體所披露的他有這個讓這個斷肢的工友下跪痛哭酒醒才能掉職有這件事情嗎這件事情後來怎麼處理"},{"start":4805.007,"end":4816.258,"text":"報告委員那個是這樣據我的了解就是說因為這位同仁他要調職我只請教有沒有他下跪痛哭求情才能夠調職這件事情我們處長說他說他要下跪我們處長說我們一起跪"},{"start":4821.323,"end":4849.775,"text":"因為這個工友對這個缺品是一切不可那怎麼會讓一個工友好 第一件事怎麼會讓這個工友下跪痛哭絕情才能調職這第一個問題那第二個問題也是媒體所披露的就是跟同單位的誠信資訊長這個比 我認為比霸凌還要嚴重可是在今天的調查報告裡面完全沒有寫對於這個不免令的事情其實剛剛這個徐處長也有想要跟我解釋那我只是想問徐處長說"},{"start":4851.315,"end":4870.855,"text":"為什麼會在這個7月26跟8月1號兩次質詢徐耕成下班後到閒置的副院長官邸約會?請問到底是在做什麼?那在裡面待了一個半小時到底在做什麼?可以這樣子公器私用嗎?而且還在下班時間這樣子難道秘書長你還要偏袒他嗎?"},{"start":4872.581,"end":4897.998,"text":"因為是講說因為那個時候這個房屋要修繕修繕一個半小時他要檢查去看就是說了解一下情況是這樣那另外一同仁他是承辦人當然處長去承辦人也要去要不然怎麼樣去說怎麼樣去維護這個這個修繕的工作因為這個已經發包了已經要確定要怎麼做了要趕快確定下來"},{"start":4899.246,"end":4921.695,"text":"那我再請教喔 請問秘書長你要繼續回答嗎那我請教喔 那我因為時間的關係喔那請問他們在媒體裡有說這個在吃早餐每天都要在早上吃早餐 而且要把門關起來中午要吃中餐沒有這件事所以媒體批調是錯的嗎沒有這件事 對好 那我是用一點時間好 我是不是可以請徐署長來接受質詢"},{"start":4925.236,"end":4942.495,"text":"好 徐處長因為時間的關係我看到報導裡面有講其實你的個性其實是很溫馴的我是不是給你最後的時間因為我覺得不倫立的這件事情受傷最大的就是你的家人是不是給你一段時間讓你跟你的家人可以說幾句話好 感謝委員讓我有這個時間來說明這一切"},{"start":4947.253,"end":4962.425,"text":"那個暴早7月25號不是7月26號我們進去寓所各位都知道7月26號是颱風天颱風過近之後其實我們上班後的第一天我們秘書處是最忙的我們到處去善後"},{"start":4963.286,"end":4984.355,"text":"那7月26號那一天,其實一整天都在善後到了下班前,懲判同仁跟我講說我們那個寓所還沒有處理那接下來就是禮拜六禮拜天他不想要拖過兩個假日禮拜一再去處理他跟我說他要先去看一下所以懲判人是相當負責任的懲判人"},{"start":4985.663,"end":5012.118,"text":"他跟我說完之後其實我當初還在忙我就說好您先去我等一下公事忙完我就去可是事實上我心裡內心是在想說讓一個女孩子自己去預鎖我是不太放心的所以他去了沒有多久我就我公事處理完我也就跟著去了去了之後發現那個烏瓦破了一個大洞那個整個天花板已經是垮下來了我這邊都有檢附照片"},{"start":5014.6,"end":5033.851,"text":"那8月1號呢8月1號各位可以看一下8月1號是過了一個禮拜因為其實那個中間我那個烏瓦的處理因為我們馬上就要大修了所以說我們就自己用簡易的修繕方式處理7月26號的時候我是用一個塑膠布蓋在上面然後拿一個烏瓦蓋著"},{"start":5034.651,"end":5054.858,"text":"那8月1號的時候各位去看一下天氣那天是下雨的一樣的狀況我們想說下雨的時候所以去看一下組長這個細節的部分我希望說會後時間關係會後提書面資料再給本席到底在裡面一個半小時是多少所以您剛我想要請你對您家人說幾話所以你認為你是沒有任何的問題嗎"},{"start":5056.463,"end":5084.874,"text":"當然沒有任何的問題我是覺得這個報宅對我的家人還有同仁都造成了莫大的傷害這個我希望希望能夠還我一個清白謝謝好 謝謝處長那今天時間的關係我希望說未來還是要有這個跟下屬的分際那我需要說新的一年大家很多事情一起繼續努力謝謝"},{"start":5091.042,"end":5094.864,"text":"好那我們接下來請麥玉珍委員謝謝主席有請秘書長請秘書長"},{"start":5113.575,"end":5114.315,"text":"想要請教一下我們要省114年度的中央政府的預算你覺得這個重不重要還是說只是過水而已"},{"start":5130.62,"end":5148.292,"text":"當然是重要的當然是重要的嘛但是重要為什麼剛才我們有委員問在12月18號剛才你有自己有說你就有說會議還沒有開始會議還沒有開始你可以撈跑嗎你可以離開嗎"},{"start":5151.909,"end":5154.872,"text":"報告委員因為那個表定的時間會議到兩點所以他已經超過兩點了超過兩點但是我們總召也有我們的召委也有打電話給你請你回來當他在這裡的時候他可以公佈我們的會議延期啊延長啊對不對但是他回來的時候也看到你在這裡啊我們其他的人也有人在啊"},{"start":5178.052,"end":5206.267,"text":"所以說他是還沒有開始他可以進來說他開始啊所以但是你接到一通電話你說辦公室的辦公室的人就可以指令說你要回去開會嗎但是你今天你要來這邊開會是你主要的開會啊不是說你要隨時都可以離開說要去別的地方開會啊不是嗎因為按照這個這個沒有因為也沒有理由啊事實上你就是要留下來這邊開會的啊"},{"start":5208.328,"end":5210.61,"text":"所以一通電話就可以說叫你回去開會你就回去了嗎不是到兩點的時候會議還沒開始超過兩點的時候超過但是你還是留下來表示你有負責任所以要留下來繼續開會嘛但是你看到我們召委又來這邊了對不對"},{"start":5226.34,"end":5228.781,"text":"但是後來他打電話給你 你也說要回來後來我們也確實也回來開會回來開會 我還在我們的協商那邊我們要協商 還沒有協商完我有邀請說 我們所有的內政委員趕快回來開會 我們內政要開會了但是我們民進黨的委員沒有回來國民黨的委員就回來 連我也回來開會"},{"start":5251.929,"end":5254.451,"text":"所以在你落跑之前 還有一些我們還堅守崗位的行政員員很負責任也是留下來後來呢 也接到一通電話 他們也陸陸續續的也離開了是你指示嗎 還是說他們自動自己就想回去就回去"},{"start":5274.943,"end":5289.312,"text":"沒有指示沒有指示但是他們自動回去的嘛如果是這樣子的話我們是可以隨時就是要來開會就要回去就回去所以沒有任何的規定就對了如果你覺得是這樣子的話我們今天"},{"start":5290.453,"end":5295.136,"text":"還要省預算嗎還是乾脆就是不用省了所以照我們想要你們想要編怎麼編就怎麼編我們就是反正就是編就是你們想要的嘛過就會過不過也不會說不會過啊因為說不會過的話你們就說自愛難行啊一堆嘛所以再來問你的就是說我們的"},{"start":5318.872,"end":5335.02,"text":"五軌搬運的小金庫就是你們的第二億倍金變成就是單位的小金庫想要拿就拿在你知道113年我們第二億倍金編列了多少錢嗎沒有編列在行政院本部的預算裡面是嗎"},{"start":5342.823,"end":5348.587,"text":"確定喔確定不是我們行政院的你可以查一下"},{"start":5359.995,"end":5374.873,"text":"不是編在我們院本部的預算所以沒有在今天的這個不是在今天但是這個也是我們政府的預算之一你說不是但是我們編列多少你是不知道這個是編列了74億"},{"start":5380.959,"end":5407.051,"text":"第二億北京你說不是我們行政院的不是院本部的但是這個也是我們的總預算裡面的第二億北京所以呢我們是編列了71億你知道嗎我們是在113年所以不是我們行政院這邊的管轄區所以說你不知道所以在我們"},{"start":5409.052,"end":5417.84,"text":"113年我們編列了74億但是我們用的一倍金只有20億"},{"start":5421.227,"end":5426.45,"text":"還有就是大概20億到24億所以還剩下多少還剩下了50多億113年還剩下50多億但是今年我們第二的預備金的金額我們114年再編列了80億編列了80億多出了去年的6億"},{"start":5449.381,"end":5471.841,"text":"這個原因你應該也不知道是不是對你應該也不知道因為這個是整個總預算裡面你都不會注意到這些你覺得這個是是說多出來的話就是浮邊就是要應用到但是我們看到的是這樣子你說的不知道也不知道這個但是呢要跟你報告一下"},{"start":5472.722,"end":5481.146,"text":"在我們112年交通部他們中央七鄉署辦理七股七巷雷達捐魚的更新計劃他們編了兩千兩百多萬但是呢又在112年又申請了三千多萬就是用二倍金的"},{"start":5500.401,"end":5502.042,"text":"還有連續兩年他們已經有編列那麼多錢了連續兩年還在申請農業部他們已經在編列112年也編列了5億但是又連續112年13年再來申請14億"},{"start":5519.979,"end":5526.603,"text":"還有我們的農糧署每年編列了10億但是呢就連續同樣的東西再來申請3億這些你都不知道是嗎所以說這個一倍金你覺得不是你的管啥區也你不知道這個一倍金是不是今年就80億就全部減累了"},{"start":5548.339,"end":5551.042,"text":"因為越來越多嘛沒有用到去年就剩下50億今年還要編80億所以說我們的政府的錢都可以隨便服編都可以編一編我編嘛你們要剪也是剪我的一些皮馬而已"},{"start":5567.062,"end":5577.569,"text":"因為一倍金是說因應於氣候變遷或者是救災防護它的需要所以通常會稍微寬裂一點事實上沒用到也繳回舊庫但是我們這三四個單位三四單位他們來去申請這樣的一倍金如果他們每年編列不足他可以再編列但是他們編列那麼多錢了還同樣的同樣的"},{"start":5596.241,"end":5619.068,"text":"的項目再來應用這個一倍金所以我覺得這個部分我們是行政院是管理各部會所以我們要了解說各個部會來去編列預算該不該編有一倍來去用但是沒有用到那麼多還剩下50多億我們今年還在去"},{"start":5622.229,"end":5628.832,"text":"編了80億其他的不會再來去申請自己有編列那麼多預算了還是所以這邊這小金庫比就業暗地基金還好用啊是不是這樣子的意思所以說我們的秘書長今天來審我們的預算覺得很多應該不用審了因為有很多你都不知道以上謝謝"},{"start":5652.369,"end":5654.532,"text":"好,請王美惠委員主席,我們家秘書長請秘書長"},{"start":5669.83,"end":5678.053,"text":"王委員早 民事長早 民事長本來在這裡想跟你探討一個霸凌的問題我認為我們要有積極 因為本來跟你說的你以後來做秘書長 但是我現在跟你說的應該你知道發生在嘉義 在嘉義發生的時候是2021年"},{"start":5697.472,"end":5704.135,"text":"到已經上去法院懲罰會的時候,是一定是二孔二十年所以中間三年多,他有覺得說,這個補償跟這個儲償,有不對的"},{"start":5716.832,"end":5720.834,"text":"所以本市要跟你說發生一件事可以去改進做到不對的人是要有股票是沒有不對但是要趕快去做因為本市覺得說我們有一點冠冠雄厚因為畢竟主管單位都認為我在這裡我做很久的"},{"start":5745.575,"end":5751.26,"text":"跟你們這麼簡單的找到工卡機關有時候因為我們最基本的資產的官工都臨了都想說我這麼簡單的還要去找這個工卡機關所以他臨也臨臨到"},{"start":5770.526,"end":5773.547,"text":"有什麼定情,他也不知道要定情去對,所以必須要,在我本身剛才講到現在,現在以這個教育的處境,如果想要請這個代理老師的家屬,在那裡,藍胸的來賣,"},{"start":5794.315,"end":5805.38,"text":"要不然他現在現有在一個官司做教育處長這樣是不是應該來 秘書長你回答一下謝謝委員的提醒所以為什麼就是說基層員工我們擔心就是在機關內部他有他的申訴管道原來本來就有我們很擔心就是說就像您剛才講基層員工他可能"},{"start":5821.431,"end":5845.302,"text":"不方便或不太敢向上反映所以我們在行政院為什麼要架一個通報平台你不用在你內部你從外面就是我們申報平台然後這個案件我們就會立案來要求他一定要做處置而且要求他一個月之內就要調查結果讓我們知道所以不會拖那麼久當然後續"},{"start":5847.972,"end":5870.031,"text":"所有的所有的公務員還有一些申訴管道那是另外的我們講說行政部門的部分我們處理至少一個月最多最多可以再加一個月你去行政調查或是處理一定要有結果那我們就不會拖那麼久馬上那如果真的很需要的時候我們當場就會把他們的職務做一個調動讓他們不會有一個重組關係"},{"start":5873.308,"end":5876.87,"text":"因為畢竟本身在這裡跟你說因為沒說沒事情講下去霸凌,這個台語也霸凌,這個台語也霸凌,這個台語也霸凌到底是之前的起伏主觀的霸凌還是主觀起伏之前的霸凌,大家都分不清楚"},{"start":5898.215,"end":5910.041,"text":"也願意的霸凌 像剛才所說的你說主管單位 加工藥照的規律說實在的 必須當這非常嚴重的因為我們的中央就是說"},{"start":5914.724,"end":5918.306,"text":"港幼依卻不補嘛 大家都會想說 跟大家再拖好好的你如果找到的時候 我就選一個 當時來到三港做工會都願望可以留下嘛 要不然本身要找的人 一定會覺得 主觀來的刁難嘛"},{"start":5937.179,"end":5942.761,"text":"包括本縣的服務處 也遭到討責的說跟我說新簽要做 跟我說已經在家裡在高雄來台北來台中來新北做很久的工作了也希望可以當家裡的服務 也能照顧家裡的士大人要不然 我要住的時候 我的主管不想放人"},{"start":5967.588,"end":5970.696,"text":"秘書長有這個問題你知不知道報告委員的確是有但是據我我在公務機關已經8年多了"},{"start":5977.466,"end":5992.131,"text":"但到後來都會都會讓他掉啦到後來啦 只有合法和純粹我是知道這個是苦求的 也是歡喜求的因為當然是未來到後來他也會掉到回去但是在這個過程當中對於要掉到回去的人說實在 如何煎熬啊真的 我覺得畢竟有這個"},{"start":6006.789,"end":6013.234,"text":"問題,我們要好好去關心,好好用主觀去跟要調的人了解一下,不然有時候誤差很大,很大的,會發生,我也要問這個,你如果有新的霸凌單位,要申訴的,要不然我看看,你們到底有多少單位,在一個單位可以讓"},{"start":6036.613,"end":6037.996,"text":"在公家機關可以以霸凌隱秘性的來 必須請你回答一下"},{"start":6046.567,"end":6063.897,"text":"我們要求就是通報平台轉譯的一定是要是保密系統保密系統就是接觸的人他就有保密義務所以基本上他會受到一些保障因為我是怎麼說呢因為有很多我們的電競當中我今天去電競明天的後天我都沒有任何人說我自己去電競而已今天明天的後天主管又找我"},{"start":6076.903,"end":6077.725,"text":"這也很奇怪,我沒有來任何人講,我把聽證你們的單位,主管又來找我,這所以你們要注意"},{"start":6089.574,"end":6094.398,"text":"主席 還有10分鐘時間在這裡必須聽剛才說的 你們要詳細去研究更好更快的不要再讓這個事情來發生 要怎麼去做第二點就是剛才蘇朝偉委員有說說到我們的生活的汙水吸收得很好 因為我們國土屬的"},{"start":6115.094,"end":6117.616,"text":"現在就是像我在嘉義市嘉義市的北京路有很多與眾公寓的區域他們的工廠在做英文一條大排排出來都炒公公你們現在叫我們要改進要改進"},{"start":6136.511,"end":6139.614,"text":"跟英國沒辦法改善 我說是不是我們有一個管道因為它也年久過前三四十年 四五十年我們的政府單位是不是想要做"},{"start":6152.657,"end":6158.98,"text":"生活汙水下水道一樣因為我為什麼跟你說到這因為國發會都是在管理任何的問題所以你轉換來做秘書長的時候我相信你對這個地方的建設非常了解所以我在這裡要拜託秘書長對教育器"},{"start":6179.19,"end":6182.351,"text":"的污水下水道跟水壓的造業出來擺出來我們也可以同仇來改善不要幫人家說水壓他們造的人來改善這樣因為都不會改善啦這也會對整個的教育區應用很大的啦好不好 必須聽"},{"start":6206.113,"end":6214.878,"text":"因為過去的確是這樣就是說我們有補助我們有編列預算讓地方政府來做這樣的事情那顯然這樣方式還不夠不夠啦不夠啦所以下一階段我們可能跟地方政府看看要溝通怎麼樣協調一個更好的經濟的機制因為我覺得環境是永續的要做不是我們的生活會有水而已"},{"start":6234.928,"end":6236.349,"text":"接下來請張宏祿召委"},{"start":6271.084,"end":6273.145,"text":"其實我們今天講霸凌其實我覺得在各個領域各個區塊都會有發生這種事吧"},{"start":6291.926,"end":6318.651,"text":"因為我們這邊是職場就是在職業場合裡面如果有上屬跟下屬不是啊我說在各個領域都會各個各個地方都會有吧對都有都有可能對嘛但行政院當然是這個全國最高行政機關尤其是在公務人員裡面我們的公務人員裡面有相關的法規裡面其實"},{"start":6321.014,"end":6338.34,"text":"長官交代的事情或什麼只要不違法是不是也要盡全力做到要不要因為依法行政依規定辦理只要按照這個法律跟相關規定來辦理那這個就是我們要把事情做好的對嘛但啦"},{"start":6340.875,"end":6360.916,"text":"只要人多啊 事情就多啦那在這個情況之下 這個霸凌的分界我覺得啦 即使行政院也有一個責任像我們推性平 我們也是推了很久大家才清楚的知道 那一條線到底在哪裡"},{"start":6362.236,"end":6379.028,"text":"對不對那現在大家在講霸凌我覺得霸凌是不應該的但是那一條線秘書長你敢說我們全國的公務人員或是我們全部的各個不同的地方大家都很清楚知道那一條線在哪裡了嗎因為類似的案件它的形態是非常非常多元所以"},{"start":6387.182,"end":6409.273,"text":"恐怕沒有辦法一刀說切下去這個是或不是所以為了怎麼樣經過專案小組的調查了解事實的真相以後才有辦法做一些判斷當然現在這個地方法院過去也有判例可以提供我們指引做參考比如說他是有連續性的針對特定的對象然後"},{"start":6410.073,"end":6429.415,"text":"在形成那樣的一個給他壓力身心上的一些壓力的條件等等的一些情況那作為一些判斷的基準而已啦但是還是要看那個調查委員調查小組他們在做調查的時候事情的緣由等等的情況才有辦法做"},{"start":6429.875,"end":6446.87,"text":"秘書長你說的是在處理事情的部分我現在要跟你探討的是我跟你講說行政院是有這個責任要去把這條線盡量把它切清楚那就像剛剛你說的"},{"start":6447.811,"end":6461.792,"text":"有很多判例有很多什麼的或是你們調查了之後的結果什麼你們應該要把它列出來哪一些就是哪一些就是然後讓全國的行政機關"},{"start":6462.913,"end":6487.954,"text":"至少有一個不是百分之百的那一條線但至少有一些準則你讓主管也可以知道讓一般的公務人員 基層的公務員也可以知道到底哪些是哪些這樣子他被欺負也可以申訴那當主管的也可以知道說哪些事情不該做我覺得現在應該要把這個放一個很重要的一塊吧 秘書長"},{"start":6490.377,"end":6507.611,"text":"我們現在案件如果蒐集夠多的話它的樣態就會比較清楚那我們可以把哪些樣態是屬於霸凌的哪些是不可以做的也許我們會匯整起來然後對所有的公務機關來做一些發布或是讓民眾了解這個我們會積極的來做"},{"start":6509.993,"end":6526.594,"text":"但是因為現在還在調查過程當中我想過了這段時間我們比較明確以後確立案件以後我們就可以歸納出來秘書長我不是叫你現在馬上做嗎我們說的是這個我當然知道可能要"},{"start":6527.755,"end":6548.264,"text":"幾個月或一點時間去做嘛但你現在就要交代人家去做了嘛從判例從什麼從各方面嘛然後也不要說我要等到幾樣幾樣你才要有個幾個案例有個幾個你們整理一下就可以讓大家知道了啊對不對不是要收集到完全啊"},{"start":6549.204,"end":6570.466,"text":"我覺得尤其現在大家在關注的有哪幾個有哪幾個讓大家知道全國的公務體系就讓大家全部都知道啊這樣不就好了嗎一步一步做啊我剛說的性評我們也是努力了那麼多年啊沒有不可能讓你一次100分啊但至少要做啊對不對"},{"start":6572.309,"end":6594.159,"text":"現在人總的確是有在這樣做處理那至於說怎麼樣對外說明我想這個部分我們再跟人總討論一下就像您講的可能他可以階段性的逐步的對外說明本來就要階段性啦不要一步一步啦不然現在大家人家怎麼做事情對不對整個公務體系那麼多而且你公務體系定下去之後"},{"start":6595.572,"end":6619.561,"text":"所有的民間企業也是有個標準在啊對不對 我覺得要做的就是這個啦這才是我們要去做的重點嘛 好不好另外啦 剩下一點資料我們行政院有成立各支保護委員會 對不對現在是各支辦 現在在籌設委員會未來會成立嘛 各支辦嘛"},{"start":6621.042,"end":6639.404,"text":"像現在我們修法過之後這個如果要罷免要什麼要有身份證這個未來會不會有人假冒去擺攤然後怎麼去獲取個資這個是有可能發生的你們應該要及早因應吧"},{"start":6642.318,"end":6661.865,"text":"了解就是說因為理論上來講的話所有的收集個資的話是不必要的個資都不要收集啊當然您剛才提到那個應該是那個是跟公投有關嗎還是罷免嗎罷免或公投嗎將來如果需要的話可能怎麼樣的一個機制那我想我們跟"},{"start":6663.005,"end":6682.411,"text":"中選會或內政部來進一步的做一些討論我覺得要及早因應啦一定會有人這樣子做的啦如果我們講的不好聽一點的如果你是詐騙集團他也不會跟你講說他是詐騙集團他就在那邊擺攤啊那他就可以拿到你的資料啊"},{"start":6684.244,"end":6700.33,"text":"這一點一定要及早因應我覺得要趕快訂出那個規範來人民的權利要受保障但政府我們也應該預期會發生什麼事情這一點我覺得可能要及早因應 好不好好的 謝謝好 接著請牛許庭委員"},{"start":6716.079,"end":6718.924,"text":"謝謝主席 郭秘書長有請好 請秘書長你好很早秘書長 早安今天終於見到你了 我很高興謝謝"},{"start":6730.252,"end":6748.93,"text":"這個沒關係我們針對今天的主題我們先來做一下探討 當然討論是霸凌案那個案的部分我們就不多說了但是我們要求的是你的系統性的東西我們要做一個清楚明白的說明在你這個書面報告裡面講嘛因應這個勞動部的這個不幸的霸凌事件發生之後你做很多的改善措施包含這個"},{"start":6750.912,"end":6777.786,"text":"這個研討研議強化法治事宜包含提升公務人員的職業安全思考在法治下強化監督檢查等課則機制並且加強提供心理健康支持關懷諮詢啊心理健康資源啊友善觀念宣導等等還有比較重要而且是大部分人比較關切的其實是所謂的院程級的職場霸凌案件通報平台在12月13號上路對不對我目前講的沒有錯吧這都是你的書面報告裡面的資料"},{"start":6778.946,"end":6800.976,"text":"其中在這個職場霸凌通報平台裡面講說三天之內就要回覆初步受理情形一個月之內要給社會大眾一個清楚明白的交代對不對這是當初我想這是卓院長開出的軍令狀當然就應該來做執行現在有這個單一窗口可以提出申訴但是本席今天在質詢的時候要強調的是說除了被霸凌者的主動通報之外"},{"start":6801.616,"end":6812.692,"text":"其他的改善措施我們先從主動通報這件事情來討論一下12月13號你這個通報平台上路之後總共受理了多少件處理的結果如何"},{"start":6814.782,"end":6832.973,"text":"這段時間很短沒關係是是是他有會診啦因為有些人一案多報或是其他資料來源會診完以後現在大概有一百二十幾個案子有二十幾個案子一百二十幾個案子一百二十幾個案子你的你都能在三天之內回報初步處理結果嗎他們處理就是說要不要立案"},{"start":6834.392,"end":6856.814,"text":"要不要立案?什麼意思?因為有一些是匿名啊有一些是市政怎樣就是如果是如果它是具名一定是立案但是有很多才是匿名那匿名的話就要沒關係具名現在立案的有幾件?現在不是現在就是具名的就是120幾件具名的120幾件非常好按照你當初的軍令狀一個月之內要回報處理結果"},{"start":6858.716,"end":6881.191,"text":"這個一百二十幾案有沒有必要跟社會大眾做一個說明也展現一下你這個平台的執行成效因為十二月十三開始然後一百多件差不多了還剩兩個禮拜的時間調查的過程基本上它內容是屬於各自的部分屬於密件我們會人種的部分會持續的監督就是說回報處理的結果"},{"start":6883.352,"end":6909.617,"text":"持續的檢討回報處理結果對對對那我們會定期的對外來說一些公佈好你第一次打算對外做一次總體的公佈去展現這個平台處理成效的時間預計是什麼什麼時候欸這個我可能要跟人總討論一下又要討論對這樣是不是有點可惜啊因為他的行政作業我必須還是得要好沒關係至少今天在這個委員會答詢的時候有很有意義的數字啊叫一百二十幾件的具名已經立案的案件嘛但是這樣子這個我要提醒祕書長啊"},{"start":6910.757,"end":6929.317,"text":"我要提醒秘書長就是說這個東西不是說你內部調查調查完然後照你這個立案然後就把它結了就算了那這樣本質上這整件事情還是在這個從社會大眾的角度來看它還是屬於一個黑箱的狀況嘛因為你怎麼處理的你到最後怎麼樣你也不見得有一個對外說明的機制我現在講的是這個事情已經不是"},{"start":6929.958,"end":6945.328,"text":"按照過去公部門處理的流程或什麼可以讓社會大眾幸福的所以你現在這個報名平台有成立你就要有一個定期對外的說明機制你要不要針對這個對外的說明機制你們現在針對這個事情的SOP也好時間表也好你們是怎麼抓的要不要說明一下"},{"start":6947.044,"end":6962.332,"text":"報告委員我想這個部分因為我剛才特別提到怎麼樣對外說明這個部分我們還是要跟人總這邊做一些討論那剛才講那實際的調查的狀況我們是有是有在follow你"},{"start":6963.152,"end":6981.252,"text":"我的意思是說我當然給你一點時間給你一點空間是沒有問題但是這個對外說明的機制要非常的清楚這件事情要稍微公開透明不能再用黑箱的方式處理這是本席的第一個提醒主動通報到底有多少成效我們來追蹤第二個我要再問秘書長你覺得真的整個公部門你這麼大一部國家紀真的只有120案嗎"},{"start":6982.694,"end":7004.312,"text":"報告委員我剛才說明了這個120幾個案子不是行政院所屬機關因為它還包括了地方政府當然啦現在中央的部分大概是50幾案地方政府大概30幾案我現在問的是說你現在這是有通報的嘛以你在官場的這樣的經驗你真的覺得大家因為有這個平台就通通會通報嗎"},{"start":7006.089,"end":7032.843,"text":"應該不會吧我們是鼓勵啦鼓勵嘛對不對你也只能講鼓勵對不對那不敢通報的狀況你怎麼處理你覺得這個會不會是所謂的冰山一角一百二十案敢通報其實下面一千多案不敢通報本席還是認為非常高的可能是這樣所以除了你這個平台的處理機制之外不能只有這個平台我們剛剛看到你的各項策進措施裡面本席覺得比較有待嘉獎或者是有待討論的地方是如何辨識職場霸凌"},{"start":7034.301,"end":7058.7,"text":"如何讓大家從不敢通報然後變成說比較敢講出自己的委屈讓公部門的文化來做一個改變這本席提供你幾個建議啦這曾經在考試院的質詢的時候本席也提過辨別職場霸凌的情況也就是說你從領導這個國家機器的這個角度來看第一那些單位不管他是中央政府的部會還是地方政府的特殊單位那個單位的離職率啊調職率啊有沒有異常的狀況"},{"start":7059.46,"end":7084.253,"text":"你看看當初的勞發署他是不是離職率非常異常當然我們這是事後爆發悲劇之後大家回頭去看才發現但他山之石嘛既然有這樣的案例是不是要做一個通盤的檢討第二烤雞的部分是很重要的我現在很擔心啊這公部門之所以會霸凌然後大家敢怒不敢言或者是有委屈往肚子裡吞那就是因為烤雞抓在長官手上萬一有像謝怡榮這種擅長向上經營的這種人"},{"start":7086.534,"end":7107.763,"text":"那壓力是很大的烤雞的部分要不要透明一點有沒有一個改善的機制那第三才是說個別公務員的工作量啊效率等等這就比較細節了但是大多數這樣的一個精進措施你們現在行政院裡面有沒有討論也就是說在平台主動通報沒有辦法觸及到或者是沒有辦法改善的文化的部分識別的部分你們有什麼加強的措施"},{"start":7110.312,"end":7137.995,"text":"事實上人事總署他有您剛才提到的比如說離職率比較高的部分或怎樣人總如果發生這樣的狀況會讓這個所屬機關讓他理解說我們有注意到你們這邊離職率是比較高但是我跟委員報告離職率比較高不一定就是跟霸凌有同等關係當然嘛有可能是泄漢嘛有可能是很多的員工被挖角因為他"},{"start":7139.617,"end":7146.548,"text":"這個單位事實上他的員工非常非常優秀所以到處被挖走了所以當然你整個這麼多的部會這麼多的機關我們剛剛講的是特殊狀況嘛你看你如果講說過去有這個狀況勞發署的狀況你們有發現嗎"},{"start":7153.697,"end":7175.803,"text":"那個離職率非常高的狀況有發現嗎?人總有發現嗎?這個我要跟人總要確認所以這個本來就是應該要列入督導的對象那我就要問啊如果說你這個行政機關除了讓他主動通報之外你還要主動掌握對不對那你現在在主動掌握徹底了解這樣狀況的時候是由誰來追蹤是由哪一個譬如說政務委員或是誰來做督導你們現在有沒有討論這件事情?"},{"start":7176.603,"end":7196.393,"text":"現在的追蹤機制就是人事總署因為它是人事是一條邊的所以它等於是所有的人事的體系裡面它是一個最頭所以基本上現在就是由人事行政總署來督導對不對然後把這些東西來做執行那你什麼時候可以提供一個我們剛剛有講我想秘書長應該不會反對啊這個調職率離職率特殊狀況主義拿出來討論的你總有一些數據的收集吧"},{"start":7201.596,"end":7207.816,"text":"你覺得應不應該做一下掌握應該要掌握對不對好我給你一點時間但你什麼時候可以把這樣子的一個報告交出來"},{"start":7209.057,"end":7232.718,"text":"就是說所謂的我姑且稱之為霸凌高風險或者是說職場相對不友善這個名字怎麼舉我沒有意見但是這樣一個機制要出來人事行政總隊來做OK那你什麼時候可以提出一個初步的報告可以可以但是我跟委員報告我們會有附註說明就是說經過了解以後離職率比較高他跟霸凌事實上還是不太一樣你跟我講什麼時候有報告就好了"},{"start":7236.24,"end":7256.032,"text":"現在是1月嘛是不是給我們一個月或兩個月的時間好我給你兩個月啦這事情我們長期追蹤但是這兩個月你不只要把這個東西交代出來也就是你的主動追查進度第二個你那個相關的平台的後續處遇啊你要怎麼跟社會大陸來說明啊你要一併把它想越清楚好不好好對不起主席我再用30秒這個"},{"start":7258.469,"end":7266.974,"text":"這個我本來期待上禮拜跟你不是前幾天在財政委員會就要問你這個事大家現在在講預算要刪28%我們下午要審你們的預算我們是要統統剪裂28%嗎"},{"start":7268.24,"end":7292.268,"text":"沒有啦沒有因為我上次問你的副秘書長啦我問他說這是不是行政院統一的命令因為他們一直在發圖卡然後我問他說是不是在簡歷28他沒有說不要不要我問他說這是不是行政院的命令然後副秘書長的回答還蠻經典他說應該不是然後他說就我所知不是後來變就我所掌握的資料不是他不是領頭我不能為難他但你是秘書長到底是或不是啊你們有沒有下這個令啊"},{"start":7292.688,"end":7303.383,"text":"沒有沒有要重編沒有要重編對不對也沒有要產28%對不對沒有嘛沒有喔明年的部分沒有明年的部分沒有但是明年的部分沒有嘛對不對那我問你為什麼內政部又跑出來又講要產28%"},{"start":7306.089,"end":7332.931,"text":"因為在我們那個質詢結束之後第二天內政部就上車了啊第二天趙牙列車翻車了他又上車了怎麼辦如果按照現在我媒體這樣看到如果說現在的這個採訪法會等到後面才送過來的話那我們可能就明年的部分就按照明年現在來處理你趕快對外做一個說明現在我那天答詢的時候副秘書長那個給人家的結論是感覺各部位各搞各的各行其事那你行政院到底有沒有在領導啊"},{"start":7334.156,"end":7346.891,"text":"如果你講這是你下的令那也就算了各部位只是說明說財務法長期以來可能會造成影響那萬一最後啊萬一最後它不是針對明年萬一最後不是這樣的時候那是不是變造謠政府機關代表照是不對的啊民主黨"},{"start":7347.833,"end":7372.366,"text":"所以你趕快趁這個事還沒有塵埃落定之前趕快做同意澄清說明因為當初我們不清楚就是說財務法到底什麼時候會送到我們行政院來什麼時候會公佈實施那個時間點可能會有你很確定行政院沒有下這個令也沒有3288的問題嘛對不對明年的預算你還是希望我們支持預算嘛對不對對那你趕快說明啦不要再讓部會這邊上那個造謠列車的好不好這個監管的力道要稍微加強謝謝"},{"start":7374.444,"end":7392.973,"text":"今年了應該是指114吧因為今天已經是是是是是好謝謝好 跟委員會報告黃婕委員詢答完之後我們休息六分鐘讓這個行政單位用洗手間那我們接下來請徐宇珍委員"},{"start":7401.604,"end":7405.266,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是不是請龔明欣秘書長好 請秘書長秘書長好秘書長好 秘書長昨天賴清德總統的元旦總統文告裡面有特別提到立法院所通過的爭議法案提到行政院有權提出復議請問今天行政院會對憲法訴訟法提出復議嗎"},{"start":7427.45,"end":7447.103,"text":"那個行政院會的議程是有排這一項但是要看結果那也就是說今天已經排入議程有可能會提出對憲法宣傳法的複議根據中華民國憲法第57條第一項第三款的規定行政院對立法院決議的法律案"},{"start":7447.623,"end":7467.278,"text":"如認為有至愛難行之處得經總統的核可與決議案送達行政院十日內以請立法院附議那請問秘書長限訴法約束的是憲法法庭開會跟決議的人數由現在的八人改為九人請問有什麼爭議有什麼至愛難行之處"},{"start":7471.108,"end":7494.164,"text":"剛剛也有其他委員有提問那我是認為我個人認為就是說因為很多的院紀爭議或者是或者是民眾跟政府的爭議都提到了憲法法庭去所以憲法法庭現在應該有一兩百個案子正在審議那基本上行政院要嘛就是被告要嘛就是原告所以"},{"start":7494.924,"end":7506.316,"text":"他是不是可以運作對我們行政部門的施政是非常重要的事情如果憲法法庭沒有辦法運作的話那這回影響到我們當事人的權益那還是說這個是賴清的總統要求的所以你們才提出這樣的副意"},{"start":7515.738,"end":7536.169,"text":"沒有耶 我們行政院今天的院會我想就會提啊對 就是剛剛講的嘛你說會不會通過不知道嗎顯然是今天會提 那應該也是會提出嘛那而且對於這個行政院對於立法院通過的這個法律案呢本來應該依法執行但是在憲法增修條文沒有修正之前喔附議案如果沒有通過"},{"start":7536.789,"end":7552.942,"text":"院長最嚴重的部分應該是要辭職那現在當然這個規定已經沒有了所以我們現在覺得行政院對於復議案的提出變得非常的噁心那所以如果這樣的話那行政院長要不要用辭職來表達通過與否的決心呢"},{"start":7554.898,"end":7573.628,"text":"沒有辦法幫院長好 那你可以轉達給院長因為行政院目前我們看到就是都把復議案當作噁心而且復議復上癮了每一案只要我們立法院通過的決議通通都要提出復議的話那這樣對立法院來說是非常的不尊重那這是卓院長對我們立法院該有的態度嗎"},{"start":7574.688,"end":7586.702,"text":"委員因為我們如果今天行政院院員通過提出覆議的話那覆議因為以憲法訴訟法來說真的看不出有什麼自然難行之處也看不出來有什麼爭議所以我覺得既然這個院會是下午會開嘛"},{"start":7591.847,"end":7613.44,"text":"希望大家針對這個部分 行政院應該是要選來了不要再提出複議另外再提到 我想行政院在12月23號有召開記者會當時的發言人有特別提到 還有包括陳淑芝主席長也都有特別提到說財化法修正過後 中央政府每年會減少"},{"start":7614.881,"end":7641.253,"text":"三千七百五十三億所以呢因此法律的這個扣掉法律的義務支出之外必須三減百分之二十八趴然後有哪些會受到影響那請問一下喔 秘書長現在內建部、課委會、經濟部、國科會等部會我們都可以看到在他的官方的臉書網站上面說要依這個百分之二十八的比例調減運算請問一下這好像跟中央廚房一樣喔都一樣的一個這個"},{"start":7642.534,"end":7666.645,"text":"政府單位在臉書上公佈那請問這是不是行政院要求他們這麼做我想因為他們我想各部會所要表達的是說他可能的影響那終究還是會有一些影響對中央政府的施政還是會有一些排行上可是剛剛董事長有特別提到了我們現在其實針對這個部分明年100就是今年114年的會受到影響嗎"},{"start":7668.206,"end":7678.993,"text":"今年不會對 而且這個部分的話是在今年還是要尊重大院的審議結果今年 今年不會受到影響嘛因為審議總預算的結果但是呢 你看喔12月23的時候就是你們的這個行政院的發言人李慧芝喔說要從編那現在當然她硬拗說是當時是假設性的用語啦對 她現在是硬拗嘛那當然釋放這個假訊息 造謠是今年政府應該是打擊的重點吧"},{"start":7698.907,"end":7713.849,"text":"沒有啦到處都說不能詐騙還有怎麼打詐司法通過那這樣自放假針是一個造謠是不是應該我覺得這樣的發言人不但不適任而且也陷著院長於不義所以這樣的發言人應該是要下台"},{"start":7714.81,"end":7740.12,"text":"那當然針對這個部分我想現在雖然都說114年的預算沒有從編可是我們看到所有這個部會的這個臉書都還是寫著這相關說這個因為如果這個財務法通過之後會三減28%的預算那所以呢接下來哪些案哪些案呢現在有沒有辦法通過那針對這個部分請問秘書長是不是可以要求他們應該要發澄清的帖文不要再這樣誤導民眾"},{"start":7742.013,"end":7755.358,"text":"我想這樣就是說因為今年的預算已經在送大會審議了結果要看大會審議的結果但是後年我們從邊如果現在的我們現在講的是2014年吧我們現在講的是2014年不要講到後年"},{"start":7759.419,"end":7786.832,"text":"我們現在講的是一四年的預算沒有要從邊嘛可是你們現在講的是在各部會在造謠是說要從邊你可以看到我們現在這個有列出來的我們現在有列出來的包括國科會包括經濟部包括課委會講的都是一一四年的預算啊會三減二十八趴啊那所以說接下來下午我們要我們等一下要審這個我們行政院的這個預算那我們要不要照這樣的標準先三減二十八趴呢"},{"start":7788.362,"end":7816.141,"text":"我們沒有要重編對 沒有要重編那我覺得有這樣子的謠言也許各部會都誤會這個主計長的意思都誤會了你們發言人的意思那是不是要求他們澄清不要再這樣不實的貼文甚至到地方去的時候在會堪的時候都用這樣的方式去恐嚇人民這是非常不應該的那希望秘書長這個部分要要求各部會要不然就會讓我們覺得這就是行政院的命令那另外再請教一下秘書長就是有關我們的這個"},{"start":7819.602,"end":7833.848,"text":"總統在昨天的文稿也有特別的對於元旦談話後的接受媒體的提問有提到兩岸是不是要恢復觀光旅遊的議題那總統有說希望能夠開啟觀光的協商那兩岸的觀光團"},{"start":7834.808,"end":7844.375,"text":"在是屬於這個跨部會的議題也涉及國格跟國安所以行政院對此應該要有上位指導的做法那請問一下總統都已經開口要啟動協商請問行政院會有怎麼樣的一個具體的做回我們能不能釋出善意開放"},{"start":7852.62,"end":7870.431,"text":"因為事實上我們今年2024的入境的旅遊人數預估是1000萬次實際上只有785萬次然後另外呢我們今年1到10月出境的旅客已經達到1416萬多人但入境的旅客只有620萬人所以逆差已經來到790萬"},{"start":7874.454,"end":7886.943,"text":"496萬多人次也創下歷史新高所以這個逆差推估之後大概會超過7500億所以針對這個部分是不是請民務長認為這個能夠說明一下行政委員有沒有什麼具體的作為"},{"start":7888.359,"end":7896.271,"text":"行政院的一向的立場就是希望兩岸之間可以對等協商那因為觀光的議題來講的話應該是他不開放他們團個到我們這邊來所以這個就"},{"start":7904.183,"end":7927.524,"text":"這個部分我想其實總統已經講了嘛他希望說可以開庭嘛所以是不是要主動的對我們來去做一個這樣子的一個探討那另外剛剛講的都是入客可是事實上不只入客啊很多國外的觀光客來的也少啊那會有這樣的問題是行政院沒有掌握到還是說你們覺得這個也不重要因為行政院有一個叫觀光振興諮詢會議是嗎"},{"start":7929.306,"end":7932.55,"text":"會 會開會 請問一下最近一次 這個是在112年7月20號制定的這個諮詢會議的設計要點那請問到目前為止第一次開會是什麼時候"},{"start":7944.995,"end":7959.42,"text":"我們很快就會開那就是一年多來一次都沒有開嗎因為專案會議是持續在開啦你剛剛講的那個諮詢會議但是一年多來一次都沒開過對不對最近就會開對那就是一年多來一次都沒開最近才會開那所以你說為什麼我們的觀光會這麼慘"},{"start":7967.162,"end":7989.603,"text":"就是因為根本行政院也不重視我們的觀光產業要不然怎麼可能這樣的一個諮詢會議一年多了都沒開然後現在說農曆年前要開 是嗎對 那觀光業已經棲產這麼久了所以說希望秘書長能夠正視這個問題那最後再一點時間我想要請教一下就是這個霸凌的事件因為我想"},{"start":7990.083,"end":8003.356,"text":"今天是我們專案會議的重點就是針對你們因為事實上現在行政院已經有變成職場霸凌的重災區光媒體拼熱的就有三件就是消保處的處長公關處的處長還有秘書處的處長那當根據你們剛剛的報告裡面說兩岸是有"},{"start":8013.072,"end":8035.693,"text":"兩案是有這個已經立案調查了那秘書處的霸凌案則未有具體的事證剛剛你們的報告是這樣嘛那我想剛剛有一些委員也特別提到你們講說其實從12月7號這個案子發生到至今已經快一個月了那當然我們有提到說秘書處行政院會在一個月內"},{"start":8036.674,"end":8060.48,"text":"要求他們在一個月內提出報告不過我記得卓院長針對其他部位的霸凌案他都要求要一週內提出報告那可是呢反而是行政院院本部都要求一個月才提出報告所以這有一點 這個真的是寬宜慮己 嚴以待人的一個狀況尤其是剛剛聽到這個紐約委員有提到說針對這個部分請教民主黨什麼時候提出報告"},{"start":8063.781,"end":8085.092,"text":"你也講說一個月要不要兩個月那其他部會你們要求一週那結果自己院本部為什麼這麼久了還沒提出來人治總署已經對外確定就是一加一就是一個月然後最多可以再延一個月所以當時的院長院長提出一個禮拜嘛那只有你們說要一個月一個禮拜因為說老實話"},{"start":8086.873,"end":8104.55,"text":"所以我想重點 我想重點也不能都提給外部人 其實外部人我相信都很願意配合這樣的一個霸凌事件所以還是希望 因為從現在 事實上我們現在一連串的這個不管是從不倫戀 霸凌 公器私用 都發生在行政院的院本部所以還是希望我們的這個領導全國部會的行政院"},{"start":8108.334,"end":8125.199,"text":"一定要嚴格的來去處理這樣的問題不要讓霸凌案讓國人看到就是我們的這個讓行政院的公信力降到谷底還是希望秘書長針對這個部分能夠盡快提出不要讓我們的這個這些行政的這個人員都受到這麼大的一個壓力好的好嗎好謝謝秘書長好接下來請李博義委員"},{"start":8141.296,"end":8141.801,"text":"謝謝請秘書長好請秘書長"},{"start":8148.843,"end":8172.969,"text":"民主黨你要先感謝主席今天原本在2024年12月18號行政院的114年度的預算報告今天總算可以在這邊報告而且大部分的委員也針對那一天應該要可以跟民主黨這邊可以質詢的內容也都有提出一些質詢那重點還是在"},{"start":8173.749,"end":8183.166,"text":"他今天雖然排了這個專案報告所以我兩個都講如果沒有這個專案報告今天也沒有辦法質詢到院長的這些內容"},{"start":8184.011,"end":8201.444,"text":"其實在12月18號的時候很多國民黨委員號稱他們有回來開會質詢他們對著對面沒有人的地方質詢那今天要感謝主席讓秘書長可以在這裡實體的可以接受委員們的質詢所以在這邊我就很認真的來質詢秘書長幾個議題"},{"start":8208.765,"end":8232.357,"text":"幾個問題你沒有辦法回答的第一個財化法跟選罷法那財化法是在財政委員會那選罷法是在我們內政委員會在2024的12月27分別由我們的內政委員會跟財政委員會發文給韓國瑜院長要求暫緩知情總統宣告這兩個法"},{"start":8233.817,"end":8251.088,"text":"啊只有一個法,爭議的只有一個法,就是限訴法他已經要知情總統宣告了那這限訴法知情總統宣告的意思是什麼就是在你現在大法官只有八個名額的情況下先把你手剁掉,就是說你這八個大法官不能來處理違憲了"},{"start":8252.449,"end":8267.415,"text":"不能來處理可能才化法或選罷法可能造成的違憲沒有這個法庭了好接下來確定這件事情之後接下來我再來處理才化法跟選罷法當然才化法裡面我很多要質詢"},{"start":8269.316,"end":8283.897,"text":"這個秘書長的選罷法就是先有可能他有私心因為後面還有一個案子就是選票加得票數加1的這個案子內政委員會還要再等等這個案子一下那才化法呢他就是怕我們接下來"},{"start":8284.538,"end":8312.713,"text":"可能要針對這個憲法訴訟對於立法權是不是嚴重的侵害到行政權的部分那祕書長過去也是我們國發會的主委主管我們台灣非常多的重大建設包含我在上一個會期其實我是在經濟委員會來質詢祕書長有關左營跟男子的幾項建設我想祕書長到現在還是非常的清楚經過這個才化法之後祕書長我想要請教你"},{"start":8313.633,"end":8327.345,"text":"新台17縣在2024年12月初的時候我趕回去我的選區趕回去左營做南段第二段工程的動工新台17縣南段第二段工程中央補助"},{"start":8330.738,"end":8340.265,"text":"總經費一共28.4億南段二期總經費9.6億總共加起來中央補助的經費有將近14億地方負擔的19.9億加4億未來"},{"start":8350.393,"end":8377.452,"text":"在這個財化法之後被地方政府拿到了很多這些經費之後中央還有沒有可能這樣子補助那我當然新台17縣必須要在2026年完成通車這個會不會影響到通車的時程這是我非常擔心的第二個捷運子縣在去年的9月份高雄市政府送出可行性評估接下來的綜合規劃包含"},{"start":8379.554,"end":8392.32,"text":"男子交流道、鐵路立體化這些工程其實都在秘書長在國外會主委任內核准高雄市送出來的這些中央的補助會不會未來產生這些金費的比例的變化秘書長這個要怎麼調整"},{"start":8400.778,"end":8416.372,"text":"我剛才特別說明就是說今年總預算的部分已經在立法院審議那審議最後的結果經費怎麼樣這個就要看大院審議的結果好 今年如果地方建設經費都不要動的話我相信每一個委員都"},{"start":8417.31,"end":8443.142,"text":"申付選民的請託地方建設經費不能少就是明年的部分明年的部分現在我們3月份因為2026年這個新台詞期限要通車今年度你錢沒有花下去明年度怎麼通車這個就是我們最在意的問題會不會錢下放給地方之後那其他縣市有可能每個縣市都希望做軌道"},{"start":8443.962,"end":8452.156,"text":"那中央又要在原本的軌道建設的補助的比例下會產生一些變化"},{"start":8453.033,"end":8480.97,"text":"如果明年如果按照現在才化法的規範目前來講的話明年的確會受到一些影響這樣其實就是嚴重的侵害到中央政府對於全台灣資源以及建設分佈的一個佈局的問題所以才化法嚴重侵蝕到嚴重侵害到行政院對於全台灣建設跟這個佈局的問題我覺得這個要非常的重視"},{"start":8481.81,"end":8508.761,"text":"所以我們支持行政院必須要用任何方式來提出救濟以利台灣的發展這樣講民主黨你同意嗎是對因為財務法本來他的意思就是要調節不同地方之間的這個盈虧嘛那但是以現在的方案以現在的條文通過的話變成越有錢原來越有錢財政好的這個縣市啊他會越好"},{"start":8509.687,"end":8538.805,"text":"那原來越不好的縣市它的財政狀況就會越糟糕我相對來講如果少掉中央補助的話那這個就跟原來的意思事實上是有一點不是那麼相符在主委你過去幾年在主導的很多台灣的重大建設包含軌道建設的佈局未來其實包含台中也好要拿中央的補助或者是台南或者是高雄也好"},{"start":8539.226,"end":8548.488,"text":"要拿中央的軌道的補助一定都是減少但是南二都尤其台南跟高雄在這一次統籌分配"},{"start":8549.433,"end":8577.474,"text":"在這一次財化法的分配下分別拿到最後的兩名的補助所以對高雄跟台南來講更沒有主導軌道工程的這些主導能力還有上個禮拜院長剛來到高雄跟我們行政院包含南部服務中心都有到高雄車站來宣布高鐵難移的高雄方案裡面"},{"start":8578.634,"end":8598.342,"text":"嚴重都影響到行政院可支配的軌道的能力包含高鐵包含這些軌道運輸我們提出非常憂慮所以這一個財化法的未來的救濟的管道我們還是支持行政院繼續的來用窮盡所有的辦法來處理包含今年度是不是有可能提出追加預算民主黨"},{"start":8601.607,"end":8624.366,"text":"有沒有可能來提出追加預算就是今年的部分因為已經大院在審議預算要看那個預算的結果那如果說今年照原來我們編的部分三減的數目沒有很大的情況之下就可以照原來的計畫來進行那如果財化法那確定公告實施必須要給這些縣市三千多億的話行政院怎麼調整預算"},{"start":8626.077,"end":8650.729,"text":"這個就是我們因為我們還沒有收到那個來文實際上他就說不要去文啊就是要先讓你限訴法先不行啊先不能提訴訟啊沒有來文的話他就沒有生效有一天生效了假設三月生效了你開始要補助地方政府了開始要把這三千多億撥給地方政府了那你中央要原本要補助給縣市政府這些錢不夠了要不要提出追加預算"},{"start":8651.395,"end":8670.532,"text":"所以如果按照這樣來講的話可能包括地方政府他在預算的編列或執行上就會產生很大的困擾包括中央政府跟地方政府哪一些經費原本讓地方政府來做那中央政府這一筆經費就沒有辦法再支出了是不是要朝這個方向還是都還在討論中還在討論當中因為有可能"},{"start":8672.833,"end":8684.01,"text":"有可能如果提了以後我們還是有可能會針對某一些我們沒有辦法執行比較漢格的部分提出復議那大家是不是有重新可以思考"},{"start":8684.895,"end":8707.596,"text":"最後剛剛國民黨委員有說你是不是要回去建議行政院長要不要辭職其實台灣的憲法的設計是這樣子如果行政院對於立法院提出來的這個法律案認為沒有辦法執行的時候可以提出復議如果這個提出復議在立法院之後立法院對行政院的方式是提出不信任案而不是要求行政院長辭職謝謝"},{"start":8714.073,"end":8716.515,"text":"好 接著請黃婕委員好 謝謝主席我們請秘書長好 請龔秘書長"},{"start":8734.79,"end":8750.143,"text":"好 秘書長早喔其實剛剛大家都在談論才化法這也是我今天想要關心的重點那可是呢先講一下說今天其實行政院會有在討論說要把限訴法來提出復議也正在討論中對嗎是的那這個結果大概什麼時候會出來因為院會結束通常"},{"start":8757.964,"end":8781.59,"text":"通常11點應該現在應該可能出來好那當然我要在這邊表達我的支持啦希望等一下院會做成的決議是會堅決的提出復議因為這個不只是剛剛其實秘書長有講到說因為行政院自己是當事人其實不只行政院啦這個對很多人民來說都是當事人因為大家知道說其實會提出釋憲申請的"},{"start":8782.91,"end":8798.716,"text":"其實有99%的都是受到侵害的人民所以現在這個限訴法造成憲法法庭癱瘓下去影響最大的是多數需要救濟的人民所以不只是行政院我相信很多人民也都希望行政院可以"},{"start":8799.436,"end":8822.544,"text":"來提出復議然後讓立法院重新的思考說這個憲法法庭真的要癱瘓下去嗎為了要教訓執政黨造成最後教訓到所有的人民嗎所以拜託我也希望等一下你們會堅決的來替人民來發聲然後來提出復議那然後重新來審視憲訴法是不是真的要這樣提喔"},{"start":8823.104,"end":8838.703,"text":"那再來還是要講一下這個才化法因為這個才化法通過之後其實我看各個縣市大家都跳腳包括剛剛有許多國民黨的委員也跑出來急著說為什麼行政院這樣子說今年的預算有可能要重編其實他們重點都錯了啦"},{"start":8841.226,"end":8866.604,"text":"重點不是今年有沒有重編而是未來每一年度的預算是不是都會因為財化法的修正造成垂直分配跟水平分配的差別而進行大幅的預算的調整這個是事實對吧是所以我覺得在這邊也拜託秘書長你們在對外溝通向社會多做說明的時候一定要講清楚說明白"},{"start":8867.725,"end":8880.213,"text":"因為這個我必須要替你們抱屈一下啦因為過去在二讀的時候在委員會之前都沒有好好討論的空間以至於所有的行政部門包括所有的部會包括行政院都沒有機會來到立法院好好表達說這個預算分配重新調整之後會造成什麼影響"},{"start":8888.018,"end":8915.78,"text":"那这个我也是希望接下来行政院对外要多做沟通的部分因为过去确实因为在陈玉珍在财委会的召委的主导之下让你们没有机会去财委会好好的说明甚至连我们高雄市的陈其迈市长特别北上来到财委会也没有机会好好的说明这个是真的非常可惜的部分那现在强硬三读通过之后到底受到什么影响人民是有权利知道的"},{"start":8916.46,"end":8940.777,"text":"所以現在各個撲配在地方上積極的去表達我覺得這是很正確的事情啊都已經可能受到的影響難道不需要讓人民知道嗎所以我在這邊還是要強烈的譴責國民黨喔怎麼會跟中央搶劫之後又不准中央來在地方上好好的跟大家說明不准被搶劫的人來張揚來好好的說明自己會受到什麼侵害呢"},{"start":8941.738,"end":8955.711,"text":"那我還是要請教一下因為現在看起來國民黨又再一次的毀憲亂政刻意的嚴當不讓財化法跟選罷法送出立法院還要延緩請總統延緩公佈那當然不知道他們什麼時候會來請總統公佈那到時候我們行政院態度到底是什麼有沒有機會來提出復議呢"},{"start":8968.41,"end":8992.269,"text":"委員因為現在公文就還沒有送到行政院所以行政院也沒有辦法去處理這件事情所以我們只能去評估以現在的方案裡面可能會對我們的影響就像剛才委員提到的可能未來中長期每一年可能我們的預算結構到底要做怎麼樣的調整萬一如果按照原來的版本這樣子實施的話"},{"start":8993.77,"end":9002.525,"text":"我們只能預作一些準備委員剛才聽到說也要把這個準備可能跟地方也好或是民眾來做一些溝通"},{"start":9004.619,"end":9028.595,"text":"秘書長我希望你們再積極一點啦什麼叫做萬一可能叫現在版本通過現在國民黨主導的才化法就已經三讀通過了這個我們高雄的鄉親都非常的覺得很受傷也看不下去喔他們每天都在問我說哇這個才化法公佈之後三讀過後對高雄來說竟然是全國增幅最低的沒有把人口"},{"start":9029.876,"end":9039.765,"text":"裡面的人口結構放進去然後對高雄來說我們土地面積這麼大這樣的指標也沒有被放進去對高雄來說非常非常非常不公平啊"},{"start":9040.836,"end":9062.64,"text":"然後到現在 那政院你要告訴我啊 這樣子的結果下去之後是不是對於我們高雄未來正在進行的重大建設都會受到影響你們要告訴大家啊這也是我們高雄人民 高雄市民現在都最擔心的一件事情包括說我們現在正在興建的捷運黃線剛剛博弈委員提到的捷運紫線包括接下來的高鐵南延"},{"start":9063.38,"end":9088.69,"text":"這些都是攸關全國然後行經高雄的重大的軌道建設這個一定都要有中央的預算來支持啊這難道不是在跟高雄市民說高雄市民你們是次等公民嗎照這樣的財化法的版本下去就是在跟高雄的人民作對啊所以這個我是希望行政院這邊一定要馬上的試算你們的評估都太慢了"},{"start":9090,"end":9107.866,"text":"造成什麼影響難道我們人民沒有權利知道嗎我們有初步的做一些評估啦那我剛才特別提到就是說我們會針對如果這個文送到行政院我們會針對裡面真的產生自然難行之處提出一些救濟"},{"start":9109.349,"end":9129.563,"text":"那這個究竟我們會講得非常清楚這個事情為什麼自在難行包括您剛剛提到的可能會讓比較後面軌道建設比較後面先做的已經做完了但是後面要做的包括高雄台中等等的一些情況他可能會受到一些甚至於新竹他的輕軌都會受到一些影響那這個"},{"start":9131.064,"end":9150.054,"text":"我們不希望這樣子所以我們會提出一些救濟上的一些方法怎麼樣來做朝野怎麼樣協商更好的一個可行的一些方案出來我們還是朝著這個方向來來進行好這個要拜託秘書長因為我真的很不希望我在這邊很不希望再是"},{"start":9151.215,"end":9164.469,"text":"就是我也不想用譴責的啦可是就是這個才化法通過之後真的對我們南部的鄉親來說真的真的影響太大了我在這邊必須要替我們高雄的鄉親再次的請命"},{"start":9165.595,"end":9186.011,"text":"拜託如果還有轉還的餘地也在這邊拜託所有的我們立法院的同事大家好好重新思考是不是有任何救濟的可能也希望政院窮盡一切的救濟手段讓這樣子的才化法真的不要照這麼惡劣的方式來上路好嗎好謝謝秘書長"},{"start":9194.036,"end":9199.446,"text":"好 那我們現在休息六分鐘現在休息"},{"start":9786.977,"end":9789.219,"text":"那我們繼續開會 接下來請葉元之委員主席好 麻煩請秘書長好 請公秘書長"},{"start":9808.431,"end":9824.589,"text":"葉委員好 國務院長先跟你確定一下剛剛民進黨的委員就是說財化法通過之後立刻對地方造成立刻對中央造成危害我想問行政院發言人之前講說財化法造成今年的總預算要重編這個已經被證實是一個假消息了對不對"},{"start":9825.748,"end":9841.516,"text":"沒有要從邊嘛沒有嘛那為什麼內政部在前兩天的時候還發臉書說他今年所有的建設都要減少28%包括育兒津貼包括地下污水下水道包括打榨都要減少28%為什麼是要給地方嗎內政部是不是要把28%預算給地方在今年就要給油嗎"},{"start":9849.367,"end":9864.512,"text":"預算現在還在大院審議當中對 如果通過的話如果通過是不是要給地方28%今年有嗎就要看有沒有嘛對 就要看那個文本最後的結果怎麼來認證不是啊 如果通過 都照樣通過有要給28%嗎 有嗎"},{"start":9867.386,"end":9882.444,"text":"他如果當時實施那當時實施就沒有實施嘛今年就沒有從編而且也沒有要實施那內政部為什麼要減少28%這他自己要放口袋喔不是沒有這樣我覺得大家針對財化法就就事論事啦"},{"start":9883.084,"end":9902.217,"text":"因為二十幾年前大家都說財務法沒有修嘛那賴清德總統在當市長的時候也說要修嘛對於版本如果有意見大家可以來討論但不用講那麼多政治語言嘛就沒有要減百分之二十八那內政部可以這樣公然造謠喔民主黨你可不可以節制一下你們的政務官啊"},{"start":9904.839,"end":9919.665,"text":"國民黨修裁劃法就是毀憲亂政民進黨的立委包括之前蘇貞昌在當主席的時候帶著當時的台南市長賴清德說裁劃法十幾年沒修罵那時候的中央說那時候的中央怠惰不願意處理難處理的問題"},{"start":9921.286,"end":9946.367,"text":"那個時候就不是毀憲亂政現在國民黨修就毀憲亂政我真的很痛心啊看到民進黨的政務官老是政治語言欺騙社會大眾領著民脂民膏拿著納稅人的薪水然後到處欺騙大眾我真的聽不下去啦然後再來秘書長我覺得除了搞政治鬥爭之外行政院應該要注意一個我覺得很"},{"start":9947.56,"end":9970.132,"text":"很危險的現象今天我們的題目叫做什麼霸凌對不對因為我發現行政院有一個部會霸凌很嚴重經濟部你知道為什麼嗎你要去注意一下你知道經濟部次長在郭志輝部長上任之後三個都要走了你知道這是嗎第一個林全仁然後再來陳正琦然後連錦江什麼時候要走"},{"start":9971.58,"end":9988.798,"text":"大概三月吧三月要走你有看過您當那個政府官應該蠻久的吧在政府機關服務也蠻久的吧你有沒有看過一個部長上任不到九個月下面三個次長都要走人的你有沒有看過你有沒有看過"},{"start":9992.436,"end":10016.341,"text":"可能有個人的規劃嘛當然都個人規劃嘛每一個離職都個人規劃嘛我看到那時候陳正琦要離開的時候郭志輝也是說尊重每一個人的生涯規劃啦每一個要離職的人都是做生涯規劃啦這是標準答案啦可是一個部長上任沒多久三個次長都要離開你們行政院都不會覺得很誇張喔"},{"start":10018.356,"end":10035.789,"text":"我們現在在講霸凌為什麼之前大家講勞動部有一個指標說他可能有霸凌就是他流動率很高嘛很多公務人員進到公家機關到了勞動部寧可辭職也不要幹因為霸凌很嚴重嘛那今天經濟部長上任後三個次長離開你覺得都是生涯規劃嗎你真的覺得都是生涯規劃嗎什麼生涯規劃為什麼以前都沒有這個生涯規劃換句話之會以後就有生涯規劃"},{"start":10046.673,"end":10075.975,"text":"你有沒有去了解民主黨你有沒有去了解您是要做各部會協調溝通嘛你有沒有去了解這個現象有沒有據我了解像陳正吉次長事實上他在520那時候他當時就表達他要退休了啦那時候部長說請他看能不能因為在政權轉軌的過程當中可不可以多留一段時間啊那他同意那時候就講好到12月底啊那時候已經先講好了啦"},{"start":10076.195,"end":10076.576,"text":"連緊張咧連緊張的話因為他家庭還是"},{"start":10083.697,"end":10109.407,"text":"爸爸要照顧啊 這些情況每個人都有檯面上理由 這就不尋常嘛而且秘書長 你知道今年啊川普上任之後是一個經濟非常有可能大變動的一年 你知道嗎你知道這事嗎 結果我們所有有經驗的次長都離開陳正琦已經是我們台灣少數具有大型經貿談判實務經驗的次長而且他在上一次川普在任的時候他就有跟美國交手過"},{"start":10110.475,"end":10136.97,"text":"這樣的人才你們留不住就說生涯規劃好吧生涯規劃你就走吧連錦章負責產業現在你們經濟部一直在推很多綠能的政策搞個天怒人怨你有沒有看到一個新聞中鋼的員工工會又出來抗議了說經濟部要求中鋼要投資一家叫台灣智能能源公司要做一個平台他們很害怕又要燒2500億有看到這個新聞嗎"},{"start":10138.379,"end":10153.6,"text":"知道這個事嗎?但是那個是有點誇張啦有沒有誇張是一回事啦那是因為當時您在做國發會主委的時候你國發基金有投資一個叫做新達海基嘛新達海基最後怎麼樣?共有64億收場啦"},{"start":10156.007,"end":10175.301,"text":"所以當然中鋼的員工會緊張嘛現在經濟部任何政策下來他們都怕說中鋼會不會虧損啊會影響到他們的分紅啊影響他們的股價啊那我現在講這個只是說我不是在跟你討論西部的經濟政策而是我們一個一個次長離開正值著我們經濟可能面臨到極大變動的一年"},{"start":10177.216,"end":10198.033,"text":"行政院有沒有掌握有沒有了解到底是部長的問題還是次長的生涯規劃那我看到部長每一次他因為從企業來的以前聽說他在當企業家的時候常常丟一個方向下面就去研究研究完之後又說這個方向好像好像不可以再換下一個方向然後他的員工可能就疲於奔命這但是他民營企業我們不管"},{"start":10198.833,"end":10226.283,"text":"現在如果做政務官 政務官如果也是這樣搞每天丟想法出來 叫下面去研究 叫下面去做然後做不出來 然後再換方向很多人當然這樣就受不了啊你有沒有去了解是不是這個情況上一次告訴大家說 我們要去菲林買電你知道這個事嗎 知道嗎然後在立法院大家質詢他他說 欸 這只是一個想法而已你知道這個事嗎所以政務官今天可以隨便亂拋想法"},{"start":10227.13,"end":10248.815,"text":"他是部長欸 部長拋了一個想法 次長就要去研究了啊就研究完之後 發現這個不可行那次長會不會做很多攏事 會不會走錯方向 然後沒有價值感 沒有成就感 沒有功效感覺得好像部長隨便丟一句話 我們就要研究 但最後又不做不如歸去嘛"},{"start":10250.014,"end":10275.2,"text":"回家養鳥 種花 下棋 都比在這邊浪費時間好嘛這個也算是職場霸凌的一種啦所以民主黨您願不願意去了解一下因為我今天在跟你講這個事情不是政治鬥爭我跟你講這是有關於台灣的經濟發展啊因為尤其是我剛剛講了 今年的經濟變動可能會很大可不可以去了解一下"},{"start":10276.721,"end":10302.292,"text":"好 但是據初步的了解還是個人的這個職涯規劃啦當然是職涯規劃 他會跟你講說我是被霸凌嗎或我覺得部長我待不下去嗎你勞動部上次第一次去調查那個北區分署的時候也都說利益良善也都說那個霸凌跟那個員工的輕生沒有直接關係啦"},{"start":10303.72,"end":10328.412,"text":"看你用什麼力道去了解嘛你的力道如果只是說 請他來問兩句話當然他都會這樣規劃可是如果你認真的去了解問次長之外 問次長秘書然後甚至去了解整個經濟部的氛圍有沒有我剛剛講那個狀況嘛否則我真的很難理解你之前你也沒有發生過嘛你當政務官的時候 次長連續走三個有沒有沒有嘛 有還是沒有"},{"start":10332.472,"end":10338.37,"text":"搖頭直接講沒有了 我們要收音啦沒有嘛 沒有嘛 所以你覺得怪不怪"},{"start":10340.015,"end":10368.801,"text":"為什麼大家都剛好在今年整個規劃剛剛已經有講包括陳正吉次長他事實上在520的時候就已經有這樣的表達然後大家談說那多留一陣子所以這個已經在不是最近才發生的而是在上任之前就是在上任之前就已經我覺得當然這個表面的理由都有可是我們想要了解我們想要您去了解的是說怎麼樣把這些人才把它留下來"},{"start":10370.37,"end":10391.507,"text":"好不好把這些人才留下來然後部長到底有沒有對一下溝通的問題這個你要去了解嘛你要真的去了解好不好可以嗎不要每次來都在那邊都在講什麼鬥爭的事情把台灣搞得好像都是只有政治口水真正該做都不做我覺得這不是國人的期待啦謝謝好接下來請吳啟明委員"},{"start":10410.543,"end":10412.968,"text":"好 稍微一位同仁 請我們秘書長請秘書長"},{"start":10419.64,"end":10443.271,"text":"董事長好 董事長早上大家都關心的不管是財劃法也好還是霸凌事件也好其實財劃法這個問題很多我們民意代表在地方不管地方中央大家都有共同的聲音因為有點太過草率造成很多的因素那是不是也請行政院這邊怎樣來妥善"},{"start":10447.553,"end":10473.484,"text":"把那個資源分配比較均勻讓這個聲音能夠減少這是我們未來我們行政院所要做的那第二關於霸凌的事件其實我們也看到我們中央在12月份也推出了霸凌通報系統這是未來關於地方包含所有公務人員大家都要共同制定一套透明的"},{"start":10476.843,"end":10505.312,"text":"的規定讓這個霸凌事件能夠減少那第三點本席所關心的就是那個重機械重機械的停放空間的問題那我也知道當初秘書長你在擔任行政院政務次長的時候在112年9月你也召開一個會議就是特殊機械"},{"start":10506.345,"end":10528.499,"text":"的停放空間名義長你記得吧記得那112年你現在已經又過了又兩年多了那這個案子還是停擺在那裡那未來呢我本市會關心會召開了很多會議尤其我也找出了一個問題就是在我們的"},{"start":10533.888,"end":10549.043,"text":"我們的交通部交通用地的項目就是第六條第三項的規定就是有一個其他交通設施這一點我們就是朝這方向來做突破但是畢竟還牽涉到"},{"start":10551.125,"end":10569.706,"text":"由我們交通部以及農業部還有內政部那是不是再請我們的行政院我們的秘書長再來召開有哪個單位來認定不然你齁種機械你台灣那麼多種機械好我再打個比喻我們這次花蓮的地震"},{"start":10570.902,"end":10586.349,"text":"花蓮的地震在電視媒體都有看到都是種機械慶祝那你國家發生了重大事故的時候你都要找這些種機械那種機械他們的問題停放的空間的問題"},{"start":10587.97,"end":10609.605,"text":"永遠我們中央政府都沒有替他們去做解決那地方政府勒老是來做不符合項目使用或是來白白一直來開罰單那這樣也造成業者一種非常大的困擾那是不是我們行政院要有擔當來扛起這個責任請我們民事長來回應好不好抱歉因為上一次我協調的時候"},{"start":10616.909,"end":10634.233,"text":"我以為已經解決了那我後續再來召開會看看怎麼樣再做處理再跟委員報告這一點我都先感謝你不然真的他們變成一個政府沒辦法說好做一個規範"},{"start":10637.315,"end":10655.049,"text":"你看那麼多的重機械包含潛墩機啊 挖土機啊還有一些高空的釣機啊那你萬一發生了事故你所有的重大的工程都是要依賴他們那我們還是要把它規範規範好那未來我們才會朝向說讓他們來做輔導也好讓他們有一個依據有一個前者單位"},{"start":10664.717,"end":10683.231,"text":"他們在地方也才可以來做先辦事業的申請那這樣才能符合我們中央來協助他們不然是全國性啦不是我們單一事件啦是 是好不好好 那我就先謝謝你囉好 謝謝"},{"start":10703.186,"end":10716.374,"text":"好 接下來請林德福委員謝謝 謝謝主席是不是請那個龔秘書長好 請龔秘書長"},{"start":10724.81,"end":10741.552,"text":"民主黨你好,民主黨我請教,因為行政院發言人俗稱行政院的化妝師以深入淺出的方式來介紹政府的政策和全民做好溝通的工作我講到這邊我想民主黨你應該知道我要問什麼了"},{"start":10743.261,"end":10767.293,"text":"因為立法院三讀通過的裁判法結果行政院發言人李慧芝卻在記者會上揚言114年度總預算可能因此要重編但是行政院副秘書長李國新以及主計長陳淑芝在財政部跟財政部莊卓銀莊部長30日在立法院裁委會"},{"start":10768.453,"end":10795.387,"text":"接受執行的時候表示從來沒有說過總預算要從編那我要請問國民署長行政院是最大假信息的發布中心嗎你認同嗎不是喔那李慧芝手中的發言稿是誰寫的是誰給她的誰審核的為什麼要用這種方式來誤導社會大眾造成整個社會衝突的對立"},{"start":10796.813,"end":10814.95,"text":"衝突跟對立你有什麼看法報告委員我想當初這個發言人他有對外說明嘛因為那時候他的用意是說長期以來可能他代表行政院耶花園人是代表行政院耶藝術長難道你們都沒有責任嗎隨便可以講"},{"start":10816.524,"end":10839.836,"text":"然後事後結果又讓人家打臉我請教這是第一點第二點這個高鐵南沿案爭議多年了直到2019年拍板左營荒案如今卻突然發現左營荒案有問題一切都從頭來過那行政院佐隆泰上週六12月28號宣布"},{"start":10841.957,"end":10870.751,"text":"高鐵南沿屏東岸這個屏東踩高雄岸而且延伸進入高雄市區並在高雄車站偵測高雄站花了五年上億的綜合規劃可行性評估跟環境評估環評全部都打水漂也可以說是賴清德總統推翻了蔡英文前總統的決策而且你那時候還是在"},{"start":10872.927,"end":10896.74,"text":"國發會當主委那高雄市交通局這個112年新聞稿表示如果高鐵需要重新進入高雄車站需將以完成鐵路地下化的荔岩道重新開挖施作高鐵隧道初估需要花14年的規劃及施工而且車站"},{"start":10898.661,"end":10922.562,"text":"商圈西拆除65棟的大樓另外鳳山車站這個自高雄高屏西西拆遷200多200餘棟施工並將嚴重衝擊市區發展故重新進入高雄車站這個案已不可行那公民署長您在蘇貞昌院內你是擔任國發會的主委"},{"start":10923.666,"end":10940.545,"text":"把關國家重大建設的發展那當初外界質疑行政院先設建再劃把那對此你有什麼看待高鐵南沿岸的轉變是否要追究相關人員的失職問題那個你有什麼看法"},{"start":10941.515,"end":10967.464,"text":"據我了解它主要是有兩個原因第一個原因因為當時選擇左營愛以後那當然你顧問公司建設公司營造公司你要有一個細部規劃那時候我們外部的顧問是日本廠商因為高鐵跟他們有關那他們提供的建議說你這樣可能會倒退路然後產生一個你這個"},{"start":10968.846,"end":10990.266,"text":"站的部分可能會自愛難行然後班次也會變得很少就沒有辦法達成當初的效應那是第一點第二點當初剛剛那個高雄案的部分大家關心的是會不會過度的拆遷然後會立言道的部分那現在交通部門他是說他們會經過市區的部分都會採遣頓法"},{"start":10991.727,"end":11009.914,"text":"然後捲路法當然經費會高一點那不過就不會產生這個比較老民的效果就是民挖的部分就會比較不是市區的部分但是我看到報紙寫就是這條高鐵要延伸到屏東實際上跟鐵路只差13分鐘"},{"start":11012.096,"end":11031.469,"text":"而且是平行的喔那你認為因為這是民脂民膏全民所繳的稅金我認為不是為了照而照確實有那個需要沒有話講但是你要是平行只差13分鐘你認為有必要嗎有那麼急嗎"},{"start":11033.078,"end":11059.185,"text":"對不對那個因為你當初做國發會的主委現在擔任行政院的秘書長我認為一個政策的推動不能換了個位置就換了個腦袋那個秘書長好好的去思考好好的探討本席最後一個問題因為本席看到食品安全辦公室許主任今天有來吧有沒有出席好來請上"},{"start":11061.206,"end":11085.003,"text":"過去日本進口草莓因為榮耀殘留問題多次遭到我國邊境茶葉來攔截因此在2024年1月由日本台灣交流協會提出申請宦官榮耀殘留的標準那2024年11月食藥署發布榮耀殘留容許量的標準"},{"start":11086.32,"end":11095.716,"text":"新增修135項榮作物榮耀殘留量的標準包括日本草莓常用的榮耀的殘留容許量結果"},{"start":11098.226,"end":11122.548,"text":"這個前天啊媒體又報導又有日本進口水果驗出農藥超標超標喔包括金柑啦草莓啦和奇異果政府才放寬農藥這個標準沒有多久日本水果又被驗出農藥不合格這個水果有農藥這個不合格本是提醒這個"},{"start":11124.329,"end":11138.321,"text":"食安辦公室這次12年過年比較早那政府要加強食安食品安全的稽查讓民眾採買年貨水果吃得安心過得好年那個"},{"start":11139.775,"end":11167.336,"text":"民主黨你跟食安辦公室的主任徐主任你們是不是應該好好的來探討這個事不是齁去應和人家啦人家講怎麼樣我們齁沒有把關那個對老百姓健康是有影響的因為你看日本的核食然後日本喔他有一些農藥灑在那個他們的水果上面超飄喔啊你們也沒有嚴格把關欸這個跟健康都有直接關係捏"},{"start":11168.755,"end":11192.63,"text":"沒有啦 只要是超標的話就是退貨銷毀啦退貨銷毀 但是你們又把它拉高本來不可以的現在就是都是很安全的我們當然就是歡迎我是希望說這是很重要很嚴重食安辦公室你們好好的去把關 好不好謝謝謝謝國務院署長接下來我們請徐欣盈召委"},{"start":11203.797,"end":11205.581,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席請龔秘書長龔秘書長 請"},{"start":11215.749,"end":11232.697,"text":"趙偉謝謝秘書長好首先本席想要針對去年其實就是上個月12月18號我們內政委員會審查行政院總預算的時候行政官員沒有經過主席同意擅自離場當然剛剛您在前面的答詢有特別講你說"},{"start":11235.218,"end":11242.201,"text":"會議通知到兩點那在兩點的時候這個螢幕還是在進行這個還是呈現會議上會開始那"},{"start":11247.945,"end":11274.346,"text":"請問1點48分的時候您還在現場嗎我在現場對 所以您應該知道嘛本席有回到會場嘛然後宣布開會然後接著宣布延長會議但是當時確實啊民進黨的委員這個很多的聲音這樣讓議事人員呢他們做事完全依法所以他們在這個我們本席宣告之後然後離開就宣告延長會議"},{"start":11275.902,"end":11299.381,"text":"那他們要確認他這個錄音有沒有錄到所以他們在兩點多才確認所以在過去從來沒有一位行政官員沒有經過主席同意不管是院級還是部會等級的這個沒有經過立法院這個會議的主席同意就擅自離場過去從來沒有"},{"start":11301.141,"end":11319.039,"text":"那即便是您剛剛有講您的這個幕僚來Call您回來包括所有列席的各個單位的這個列席人員他們多少依據過去他們多少也會問一下議事人員"},{"start":11320.08,"end":11344.267,"text":"其實我們的主任秘書我們台上的主任秘書他那一天他知道這個會議其實還沒有結束所以下午4點多本席再回來的時候主任秘書都在現場那當然後來本席也致電給您您也來到了現場來到現場突然又離開這什麼原因您都回到現場報告主席就是說"},{"start":11349.69,"end":11378.21,"text":"我回來的時候那時候因為我剛才提到就是說原來我離開的時候有會議上會開始這個部分那但是後來你回來的時候那時候的螢幕已經改了改成會議開始休息我就覺得這個是有不一樣的事情嘛有不一樣的事情所以我就再回來看看現在會議到底是什麼狀況我回來的時候發現主席又不在了"},{"start":11379.13,"end":11403.709,"text":"那主席都不在了嗎不是主席不在是因為主席在等你所以我說休息然後那一天那一天等於我休息那他們跟我說您回來因為我不知道你什麼時候會回到所以你回來之後我就接著我就接著從這個辦公室趕回來了那我一回來你又走了主席不在但是會議是休息情況所以"},{"start":11408.212,"end":11417.819,"text":"這個當然本席可以理解啦這個您啊我覺得您也是身不由己啦這一定是這個政黨政治的過程這個對您"},{"start":11420.97,"end":11448.987,"text":"要求說你可以離開包含貴黨的委員沒有一個在所以你們索性都離開甚至現場本來還有一些行政列席人員在那他們也受到你們蠻大的壓力他們就全部走了我們也沒有刁難他們但是本席想請教您不就您的這個案例我們就講這個立法院的會議行政官員可以"},{"start":11449.947,"end":11471.526,"text":"未經主席同意擅自離開您覺得這樣合乎憲政體制嗎?合乎立法院的運作嗎?合乎基本禮節嗎?如果正在會議進行當中的話不應該但是我剛才提到就是我判斷上這個會議到底現在的狀態說老實話不是那麼清楚"},{"start":11472.287,"end":11496.352,"text":"不是那麼清楚那你可以尊重主席嘛對不對那你不能等嗎我都等你等好久了好不好所以本席只能說民進黨習慣違憲違法立法院就算譴責民進黨的官員也是不痛不癢但是剩下的時間我想行政院還是有很多事情本席要質詢"},{"start":11498.359,"end":11519.342,"text":"要來跟您來做一個討論首先第一個有關我們這個消費者消費者保護本席請教您您知道最近我們又聽說這個薑黃粉胡椒發現了蘇丹紅本席請教秘書長您知道薑黃粉或胡椒一罐大概多少錢嗎"},{"start":11521.683,"end":11539.888,"text":"這個我沒有很了解大概嘛對幾百塊嘛對兩百到五百五百看大罐小罐對不對是對好那本席再請教您你有沒有聽說有新聞說民眾在飯店或旅館甚至賓館被偷拍的情況"},{"start":11541.201,"end":11561.796,"text":"就是被業者他裝 你知道嘛媒體有一些暴露所以像這些民眾的消費的權益或是他們的健康這個像這個胡椒薑黃粉裡面參有蘇丹紅他們這一些情況他們要怎麼辦他不可能為幾百塊"},{"start":11563.857,"end":11590.604,"text":"來申訴嘛那我們行政院是不是可以對於像這種個別的可是他是集體性的包含您說這個飯店他裝了偷拍器他不會只拍到一個人吧他那個長時間的對不對受害的人一定很多嘛那上網這個偷把這個影片偷賣出去他賺了幾百萬就是這個不肖業者"},{"start":11591.448,"end":11619.101,"text":"像這種我們竟然有消保處我們應該要考慮因為民眾不可能負擔這些訴訟費用所以行政院針對這一塊已經民間大家其實怨聲載道所以是不是團體訴訟的經費因為經費不足參與人數不夠所以困難重重那政府能不能提供足夠的經費協助消保團體提起訴訟"},{"start":11620.262,"end":11646.101,"text":"可以嗎包委員我剛剛問的就是說食安的部分是有我們有一個基金所以那個食安法上面對那個食安法裡面就有規定所以這個部分的集體訴訟是沒有問題那其他的部分就是我們怎麼樣請那個主政機關相關的主政機關他們來協助或是地方政府那如果主政機關不撥預算或撥的預算不夠行政院會協助嗎"},{"start":11649.554,"end":11668.2,"text":"所以我們真的希望行政院一定要負起協助提起團體訴訟保障民眾的消費權益再來本席要就我們行政院常常會研擬一些法律的草案對不對還有行政命令對不對行政法規命令"},{"start":11668.88,"end":11697.319,"text":"那這個為了讓各界能夠充分事先了解而且充分的時間表達意見所以都要提前公告這點祕書長您知道嗎要預告對就是預告嘛那現在很多的法律案都沒有預告然後你們都自己就在那邊做也不讓大家可以連我們立委都不知道這一塊可不可以改進當然可以改進但是我跟委員說明一下"},{"start":11698.22,"end":11717.818,"text":"如果是行政命令行政法規的部分沒有我法律案我特別針對法律案因為你們行政命令行政法規有規定要60天那個一定要60天因為人民沒有如果沒有你馬上公佈沒有反應期但是因為法律案通常會有冗長的比較討論的過程這個討論過程就可以表達意見等等一些情況"},{"start":11722.182,"end":11745.072,"text":"所以你們不用預告嗎還是要預告嗎對 理論上 原則上還是要預告但是只是說所以執行上都常常沒有預告這樣不好啦好不好可不可以改進可不可以改進啊我們會以這個作為最大的原則啦對啦 應該要嘛好不好對對對 還是要有這個原則那最後就是行政院其實更重要的職責是在於跨部會的整合您認同嗎"},{"start":11746.552,"end":11761.898,"text":"是的對所有事情包括剛剛今天蘇巧慧委員她也說事業廢水要您針對內政部跟經濟部要做協調嘛是那我們在打詐的部分那更是跨了四五個單位對對對所以我們"},{"start":11763.359,"end":11783.337,"text":"這個現在我們台灣的打詐越打越詐 四肢不協調的這個問題所以我們針對行政院的跨部會整合我請秘書長您回去傳達院長也好還有在整個行政院我們在統領各部會的時候一定要加強這個跨部會整合可以嗎是 所以我們打詐辦"},{"start":11785.338,"end":11794.946,"text":"指揮官在這裡我知道不只打詐嘛你既然講到這兒本席請教你你有在路上走路的時候你有看過有那個小綠人的號誌嗎有沒有小綠人對對對他剩下兩秒你會不會過不會剩兩秒為什麼不過"},{"start":11804.102,"end":11826.016,"text":"剩兩秒因為你過不了不一定啊為什麼剩兩秒過不了我們立法院這邊有小綠人剩兩秒過得了所以好 這個秘書長說剩兩秒就不過但一般民眾會這樣嗎很多人對很多的交通法規不是那麼了解嘛"},{"start":11826.616,"end":11854.349,"text":"所以現在這個我們在交通部我們有關行人道路安全或者是這個罰則的部分有交通部還有我們內政部國土署那造成民怨非常大每年我們的這個道路交通有很多的灰色地帶然後像本席舉例的這種或者是您知道現在有一種叫做行人優先區您知道嗎"},{"start":11855.714,"end":11869.572,"text":"對啊就是車子不能進去嘛車子可以進可以進去車子可以進的行人優先區那他說在行人優先區只要車子跟人碰撞車子要負完全的責任"},{"start":11870.342,"end":11884.569,"text":"那因為他車子可以進嘛那車子如果進去那今天如果有人真正刻意去衝擊去撞擊任何的機車腳踏車或者是汽車那所有的責任都還是這個"},{"start":11886.31,"end":11909.336,"text":"交通工具的這個所有人他要承擔所以有很多不合理民眾一直的來跟我相信每個委員都常常有跟這個各部會在反映所以我們希望行政院對於有些要跨部會整合的然後民眾特別期待的像我們每年像去年前年了112年已經前年了"},{"start":11912.818,"end":11929.999,"text":"74億的罰還561萬件的交通罰單那很多是灰色地帶所以我們是不是行政院可以責成相關的部會來檢討不要老是讓政府的失職然後呢讓人民受罰這一塊可不可以改進"},{"start":11931.769,"end":11959.707,"text":"我們 道安會報都會有定期在開啦對啊 都是跨部會整合啦那有些問題一直存在著民眾也跟我們反映到疲累了但是時時都有這種反應昨天本席還馬上看到一個民眾親自用訊息來反映隨時我們都接受到所以這一塊我們是不是可以請行政院相關單位在道安會報"},{"start":11960.447,"end":11984.296,"text":"也好,那時候所有單位都在嘛好好的做個檢討,可以嗎?可以,可以好,謝謝,謝謝秘書謝謝,那國民黨本時要提醒一下剛剛徐欣盈、昭偉在問您說您剛剛說您不曉得那當天已經開始開會可是徐欣盈、昭偉事實上是有致電給您那您也同意要回來開會的當天那個狀況"},{"start":11987.591,"end":11999.159,"text":"不是不是不是是您離開之後徐姓昭偉事實上是有打電話給你你也答應要回來喔是謝謝接下來我們請鄭天才委員好請秘書長"},{"start":12023.715,"end":12045.506,"text":"我們現在是繼續審查114年度行政院的預算案沒有錯吧所以這個秘書長因為你當政務官很久了很多年而這個行政院發言人他是記者出身的嘛沒有錯吧所以你要多指導他就預算法46條規定的很清楚"},{"start":12054.505,"end":12078.233,"text":"明年的預算就是115年的預算114年的預算必須在113年8月底以前送到立法院這個是預算法是16條4個月前就要送所以在解釋上當然法律修正的當然是用到後年的嘛"},{"start":12080.036,"end":12095.504,"text":"因為已經送來已經審查了嘛何況立法院三讀通過的時間是12月20號113年12月20號按照一般的行政流程總統"},{"start":12098.171,"end":12118.643,"text":"依法公布的話也是114年了嘛所以在解釋上都是不可能從編預算所以這個要指導他啦好不好好我們接下來這很重要的一個憲法判決111年10月28號憲判字第17號這裡面特別明定"},{"start":12126.67,"end":12153.243,"text":"對於平埔族群的身份這個要在先知日期三年內要這個公布施行不然的話就違法違憲所以這個必須在114年10月27號以前必須要公布平埔族群身份法這是憲判17號的一個正式的判決"},{"start":12155.335,"end":12182.782,"text":"這個請問一下秘書長什麼時候可以把這個草案送到立法院那個陳時中政委他是有在這個討論這件事情有一個專案小組正在做這樣的事情他有是有在我們政務會裡面有做過一次還兩次的報告那後續如果有比較明確的方向的話我想我們就會盡快提出來秘書長這個時間你要"},{"start":12185.563,"end":12212.544,"text":"請秘書長去協調陳時中政務委員有這個時間的急迫性他知道他知道不是不是不是知道他還要知道我知道但是還是要提醒啊第一個啊第一個顏明慧送來的到行政院11月就送去了顏明慧送到行政院的草案11月就送去了是經過很多場的"},{"start":12214.461,"end":12242.922,"text":"說明會已經聽起了平埔族群還有原住民族群的意見之後提了草案所以要盡可能要絕大部分應該要尊重尊重延民會所提的草案為什麼呢因為他是聽起了各界的意見尤其是平埔族群的意見好不好因為必須要在我的建議"},{"start":12244.581,"end":12273.211,"text":"務必要在一月底以前這個月底以前為什麼呢我們看這個時程二月立法院開會對不對開始正式會審這個法案二月下旬甚至三月初然後還要開很多的次很多的說不定還要開公聽會之類的所以必須要在今年的五月三十一號以前的定期會要完成才有辦法不然的話"},{"start":12274.594,"end":12297.651,"text":"過了這個定期會就來不及了所以這個是一個一定要提醒最好是一月底以前就是下個會期一定要通過了對對對沒有錯好接下來這個研究法推動會這個院長親自主持在113年12月19號召開了研究法推動會"},{"start":12299.312,"end":12321.918,"text":"仍然沒有依延期法來審議協調未完成的法案秘書長你要跟延民會講所送來的不是報告案這個跟那個毫無關係了要完成的按照延期法審議協調延期法相關事務啊最重要的是什麼呢比如說延期法第四條啊"},{"start":12328.464,"end":12357.023,"text":"原住民組織法還沒有完成啊應該要討論這個啊尤其是行政院院長第一次卓榮泰院長第一次召開這個基本法推動會他應該要了解結果沒有列這個討論案啊原紀法二十條也是一樣啊土海法啊蔡總統說這個要我們會很快的將原住民組織法土海法送到立法院審議啊八年多啦沒有啊沒有送來啊"},{"start":12359.04,"end":12386.286,"text":"我們卓榮泰院長也說政府也將落實原住民族基本法背立原住民族自治的推動所以卓院長第一次主持的原住民法推動會議當然應該是要討論這個才對你看原住民族土地法治這是卓院長在書面報告寫得很清楚的所以這個部分要請秘書長要跟延民會講"},{"start":12387.711,"end":12415.633,"text":"好不好以後不要隨便弄一個報告案了謝謝秘書長本席開會期間常常會休息休息的時候本席都不在那就看今天審議算本席不在你是不是要跑回立法院跑回行政院好那接下來就請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在請羅志強委員"},{"start":12426.189,"end":12428.871,"text":"有請秘書長請秘書長羅委員好在我質詢之前我對秘書長剛剛一句談話非常不滿意主席休息你回來看到主席不在你用這個藉口說你可以不出席那立法院其他委員會休息的時候是不是時候首長就可以不出席了是不是這個意思嗎請問秘書長不是"},{"start":12453.968,"end":12476.185,"text":"那不是你剛剛講什麼話我剛剛提到的就是說你今天憑什麼不出席主席在主持會議會議沒結束那主席都打電話給你了結果你跟我講說因為主席不在現場主席休息的時間是主席決定是主席的權限我現在開始正式問我的問題我先第一個對你表達一個抗議第二個我想要請教秘書長什麼叫更大的民主我不知道不知道啊賴清德的金句都不知道"},{"start":12484.212,"end":12498.199,"text":"我告訴你啦更大的民主就是賴清德啦沒關係你不知道喔來考考你憲政常識啦來看民主的大小到底怎麼分請問民進黨破窗攻佔國會癱瘓立法這個是大民主還是小民主答不出來"},{"start":12502.056,"end":12521.31,"text":"大民主這是更大的民主因為是民進黨做的就是大民主來考你第二個齁那請問齁民進黨當家鬧事號召青鳥包圍立法院還有民進黨立委要青鳥衝進來然後鍾佳冰還剪破那個鋸馬鐵籠請問是大民主還是小民主我告訴你啦 我知道你也答不出來啦大民主"},{"start":12526.823,"end":12533.167,"text":"因為是民進黨做的就是大民主柯建民說要罷免韓國瑜請問秘書長是大民主還是小民主你一樣答不出來嗎這憲政常識啊請問韓國瑜怎麼罷免我不太清楚秘書長就教一下這憲政常識啊這個總召講我覺得應該問我問你憲政常識不要管柯建民嘛你看你也要言必稱總召"},{"start":12557.129,"end":12570.775,"text":"不分區怎麼罷免啊我所以叫他選國民黨黨主席罷免韓國瑜比較快啊我講什麼道理為什麼他開除韓國瑜的國民黨黨籍不分區資格消除他就是不是院長了所以柯建民連憲法的概念都沒有但是我跟你講一樣還是大民主因為是柯建民講的柯建民說要叫大法官把國民黨解散掉來請問我們偉大的行政院秘書長你支不支持"},{"start":12585.809,"end":12610.618,"text":"是不是解散國民黨不可能嘛不可能嘛謝謝你啊打臉了柯建民啊這個我肯定你但是我跟你講你還是錯的因為柯建民說要解散國民黨仍然是最大的民主更大的民主因為是民進黨說的算我再問你啊大法官違背八成反對廢除死刑的民意做出實質廢死的判決是大民主還是小民主"},{"start":12612.486,"end":12633.774,"text":"你也答不出來不過大法官決議是合憲的合憲啦 可我跟你講過了沒關係 我已經跟很多人賭過了加你一個 加你一個什麼叫實質廢止 我講實質廢止我的實質廢止定義很簡單賴清德5月19號 2028年5月19號卸任的那一天不會有任何死刑犯被執行 你敢跟我賭嗎會不會有死刑犯被執行 我告訴你 一個都不會一個都不會有 這就是實質廢止"},{"start":12641.072,"end":12658.274,"text":"要不然來賭一下你覺得在金澤總統卸任前有沒有可能?我敢啊所以我告訴你不要再為大法官辯解就是實質廢死來我再問一下這個你總要回答得出來這是基本民主常識題以習越戒嚴是大民主還是小民主?"},{"start":12662.062,"end":12690.941,"text":"那後來已經被 這個決議已經被推翻了嘛所以你也反對嘛 對不對他不是大民主也不是小民主他有權力提但是後來被國會推翻了那他是什麼民主啊 也是民主啊他叫不民主啦 那麼難回答啊但是即便尹錫悅是不民主民進黨立法院黨團仍然發文力挺啊所以呢 一樣不民主的尹錫悅又變成大民主了那我最後再問你一個問題"},{"start":12692.383,"end":12701.318,"text":"立法院按照多數決 按照我們所選出來的民意三讀通過的法律 請問是大民主還是小民主啊"},{"start":12703.317,"end":12729.283,"text":"因為通過法案當然行政院是要依法行政非常好但是我們還是有一些舊事上的我沒有問你後面大家究竟什麼我還跟你說請問是大民主還是小民主這個是依法行政是不是民主嗎是民主啊謝謝你啊我告訴你又錯了是小民主甚至是不民主因為民進黨只要不高興都是小民主我接下來就要問我們的秘書長啊來來來到底什麼叫大民主啊"},{"start":12730.043,"end":12753.348,"text":"今天行政院針對立法院按照民主多數決通過的三法你們要提出複議嘛對不對今天就限訴法提複議啊你提複議是大民主還是小民主我們依法可以提出來的依法可以提出來那是大還是小這個沒有所謂的大小非常好你又打臉賴清德什麼叫更大的民主"},{"start":12755.245,"end":12773.743,"text":"當總統的不如我們行政院秘書長大什麼小啊民主的程序就是民主的程序行政院有權赴議是民主程序的一個環立法院三讀通過法律是立法院多數民主的一個環賴清德是皇帝啊行政院赴議是比立法院更大的民主嗎 是嗎是不是"},{"start":12777.761,"end":12785.406,"text":"是不是嘛你比較大嘛是嗎沒有沒有這樣謝謝你嘛你剛剛都回答了沒有大小之分啦什麼更大的民主那我接下來想請教啊我直接跟你講啦你們當然也知道啦行政院復議喔因為立法院多數通過法律你進來復議我們也不會讓你復議成功啦那接下來幹嘛釋憲了是不是釋憲是不是"},{"start":12806.28,"end":12828.874,"text":"沒有啦 那個還是要經過立法院的程序啊沒關係啦沒關係 我就跟你講就像我剛剛跟你講5月2028年5月19號之前不會有一個一個死刑執行啦我直接跟你斷言嘛那剛剛你也可以證明我錯嘛可以證明我錯嘛時間嘛 十天就證明了嘛十天內就證明了 我就問你喔接下來如果被否決 請問現在要怎麼做 釋憲嗎"},{"start":12830.726,"end":12847.416,"text":"希望跟立法院來做溝通好啦好啦你努力你辛苦你努力溝通啦你用更大的民主來跟我們立法院小民主溝通啦立法院很小啦不用擔心直接踩過去碾壓他用更大的民主碾壓就好了有什麼好溝通的賴總統都不溝通的欸賴總統現在溝通過沒有啊"},{"start":12850.56,"end":12873.211,"text":"那種說突然今天元旦才突然醒悟說要找韓國瑜來溝通他也沒搞懂欸韓國瑜是立法院院長議事總理其實找他溝通也不是正確的事情要找在野黨主席溝通一個叫做朱立倫一個叫代理黨主席黃國昌啊建議一下啦要展現溝通也不是這樣展現方式啊那我接下來問你嘛要不要示現嘛答不出來啦齁"},{"start":12880.119,"end":12898.89,"text":"我這邊就直接說一件事情今天我們的民主走到這個地步立法院的立法委員不是我們個人的意志我們是人民選出來是人民賦予我們的民意我們通過的法律在賴清德口中叫做什麼"},{"start":12900.256,"end":12911.438,"text":"叫做低贱的民族吗你是高贵的民族你是更高大上的民族吗是这样意思吗你不如我们狗明星秘书长啊他直接跟你讲哪有大小之分啊"},{"start":12912.571,"end":12936.418,"text":"都是按照憲法底下的民主程序我也不認為行政院附議就比較小哦沒有這回事哦都是憲政程序啊什麼叫更大的民主那我直接問啊請問更大的民主賴清德是在號召民進黨大罷免嗎是宣誓要大罷免嗎還是今天更大的民主賴清德是說要開始展開所謂的全民公投嗎"},{"start":12937.947,"end":12956.665,"text":"不管是哪一個程序 仍然是民主程序的一環 也沒有所謂大小之分那我最後要講一件事情 戴金德如果真的要講更大的民主 如果是一時式罷免 大罷免就是真的完全呼應了柯建民一路的主張 民進黨一路的主張就不要再裝了 不要再搞什麼偽公民團體 請客吃飯直接民進黨掛黨部的名字出來發動大罷免"},{"start":12962.492,"end":12979.561,"text":"至少你今天有氣魄單刀直入清清楚楚明明白白第二個我跟民主黨幫我轉達一下卓榮泰院長請卓榮泰再轉達一下賴清德總統如果他講的是公投很好請他宣布民進黨不要再黨公投並大選了民進黨自己閹割了公投他現在跟我講公投"},{"start":12986.969,"end":13007.172,"text":"先回去懺悔十天行政院復議期十天回去懺悔十天再來跟我講公投我告訴你不管罷免公投或者是今天立法院通過的法律乃至於行政院復議大法官釋憲都叫做民主的一環更大的民主不是皇帝不是愛心德 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請張祺凱委員"},{"start":13033.417,"end":13035.399,"text":"秘書長請秘書長陳委員長你行政院今天肯定限訴法要提復議你判斷立法院過得了嗎你的復議案過得了立法院嗎一量溝通你的判斷呢這個案子是台灣民眾黨提國民黨支持的啊"},{"start":13057.52,"end":13070.481,"text":"對不對 加兩個無黨籍啊54加8票 62票我們會說明可能自愛難行的部分我們會溝通 盡量溝通看起來用常理 不用腦袋 用卡打呼吸也不會過對不對為什麼要提"},{"start":13073.971,"end":13100.828,"text":"沒有努力啊,一定要努力才有可能機會啊要努力應該不是,要努力應該不是提複議吧趕快提出大家接受的大法官人選啊你提專業的啊,提獨立的啊,人民會鼓掌的啊你賴清德提了人,如果是好的在野黨民眾黨跟國民黨敢擋嗎?你就是提了上次你們連民進黨自己都去封殺啊劉建銀那個大炮事件顯示什麼?"},{"start":13102.025,"end":13111.331,"text":"那現在賴清德跟民進黨提的不就是要來當民進黨打手的嗎劉建宇只是因為批評了民進黨寫幾篇文章講幾句話賴清德總統把他丟包耶他民進黨黨團51個人 繼黨繼來全部"},{"start":13117.642,"end":13142.533,"text":"你現在到底要怎麼樣的道法官你現在提副議案是怎麼樣繼續把道法官抓在你手上變禁卵這是人民要的嗎你現在不是提副議吧你現在要的應該是符合人民的需求你帶清德總統你提出好的人我們鼓鼓掌就剩下七個人你可以開會啊沒有衝突啊道法官名單還會繼續提啊你提副議案過不了人民也不同意啊你的解決方案是什麼"},{"start":13143.473,"end":13159.799,"text":"就提出大家會鼓掌的人啊不然就改改問題啊,你就可以開會啊是不是這樣?沒有,副議還是我們盡量溝通嘛盡量溝通,好不好不過還轉達一下啦,趕快提出政協是提出合適的人啦好來,今天來霸凌的這個專案啊秘書長現在兩平靜音也有出現嘛,包括你的消保處我先問你一下十一過二十啊"},{"start":13171.974,"end":13184.739,"text":"一定有總委員長,他有說喔他說已經揭露或者被檢討的,那時候11月20號,他有說一個禮拜內,全部調查完畢,追究責任對不對,你會去嗎?如果有新的案子,請各個機關職場,全面啟動防制霸凌的作業加強保護,要趕快辦"},{"start":13197.827,"end":13218.832,"text":"你們這個速度 你現在看起來 左院長是急驚風喔 速度很快喔 可是是不是跳票了當左院長在帶頭衝的時候 直接把他處理他那時候是就是大家比較關注的幾個案件啦 那個大家比較關心嘛大家比較關注的現在調查完了嗎"},{"start":13219.935,"end":13241.434,"text":"除了勞動部的北分署那個案子其他調查完嘛這是第一個問題第二個有些新的案子你們進度現在變成是牛步化囉是不是人總本來就有一個規範就是一個月你現在像我剛才說的你行政院裡面發生問題你說要多久一個月是不是為什麼你們的院長這麼急驚風結果你們這邊這麼牛步化"},{"start":13246.644,"end":13268.524,"text":"這不跳票嗎?你至少進度跟上去啊,一天白兩天白,你想怎樣都頂一下一個月調查小組很多是要外部委員來協助那這個外部委員我們還要配合他們那這樣協政院長當初就不要做這個保證啊他當初是講說,大家比較矚目的幾個案子,我們是不是先來處理到目前為止,除了勞動部的案子,其他沒看到有該我複寫啊"},{"start":13269.932,"end":13298.684,"text":"是不是?據我了解還有衛福部的嘛衛福部齁?你聽起來好像兩個案子處理好而已還有教育部的還有幾個部會的都有加快速度,對人民有交代好不好?不要跳票來,我今天跟你討論一個很驚悚的數據我看了老蔣我都嚇了一大跳了你那個職場霸凌的專線成立齁我調資料的時候,它說一百個收到五十三案對不對?"},{"start":13300.376,"end":13328.4,"text":"這不像這個專線這個平台收到幾個案收到幾個案子那個人總給我的這個數據他是經過整合因為有一些是有多個人報一案匯整起來目前立案的是一百二十幾個吧有具名的是一百二十幾個剛剛成立沒有多久已經有一百一百多少案子進來現在啊現在就是有具名的是一百二十六案一一二六"},{"start":13330.1,"end":13352.947,"text":"你會覺得這個數目字很嚇人更嚇人 我給你看更嚇人的數目字大家看這個數字這個是本席辦公室去人事總署調到的資料這是很驚悚的一個數據最近這五年工部門職場霸凌的件數跟人數每一年都跳一倍"},{"start":13354.885,"end":13376.177,"text":"最恐怖的 你看一百九九年的時候 民國一百九九年78件到了110年 隔年跳到143 整個要一倍到111 跳到228不是沒有減少喔 每一年都增加一倍到了去年515 又跳一倍今年還沒完呢 統計我貼在紙上了 到十幾分必須扭"},{"start":13384.485,"end":13400.471,"text":"地雷數據太嚇人了我們公務人員怎麼這麼可憐我們的公務員很優秀啊就霸凌人數這麼多 第二個更嚇人了每一年 五年來每一年都跳一倍不只沒有減少嚴不嚴重那為什麼沒辦法處理 到底出什麼事所以現在我們為什麼要有那麼多的機制希望把這個事情做一個處理畢竟我再給你看一個數字"},{"start":13414.582,"end":13434.832,"text":"我調的資料,有中央政府,有地方機關,有各級學校各級學校人是最多的嘛,對不對?那地方政府跟中央差不多你知道哪一個這三個單位,中央政府是最嚴重的霸凌的事件是最多的,嚴重到什麼程度?申請的件數是5年,569件"},{"start":13441.363,"end":13455.454,"text":"成立的就有92件我統計就是每一位在中央政府包括今天列起的很多官員在中央政府中央政府上班的一萬人裡面就有29個人來申訴說他被霸凌了至少有接近5個人是成立的我們的政府怎麼對得起我們的公務員呢"},{"start":13465.882,"end":13474.653,"text":"我們之前看到了我們很悲傷勞動部那麼年輕那麼努力一個年輕人生命消失了結果我們現在把這個掀開來看整個政府這樣怎麼對得起我們的公務員呢我們在法令上在職場上或者他申訴的時候我們提供什麼保護嗎"},{"start":13487.807,"end":13501.282,"text":"在考試院的這個保訓會的有關於公務人員保障法我們會跟他來進行比較更實質上看怎麼樣修法讓他對公務員的保障可以更好所以必須對"},{"start":13502.714,"end":13514.097,"text":"今天我拿出來應該是全台灣第一次有人拿出這樣的數據 對不對第一遍我們終於具體化 知道每一年都在倍數的成長我也很具體跟你講 每一萬人 29位員工 公務員申訴說他被霸凌了 這麼多位都是成立的 這很嚴重 我們一定要徹底的去解決"},{"start":13526.087,"end":13545.723,"text":"我更跟他講為什麼要急我跟他講速度不能慢你不要讓這個行政院長走動態左院長跳票很多案子你說又有一百多個申訴嘛對不對我笑的這個禮拜我又拿到一個案子我聽了這個霸凌這個狀況老實講我心裡是非常難過的這是中友一個他說我以一百一十二年開始啊廉政署外派到他們中友單位的政風處一個長官"},{"start":13556.398,"end":13568.966,"text":"辱罵他一個女孩子罵人家說用下賤的賤去罵他還威脅他說不會讓你升等你考記一定是平等那他往上申訴啊政風處長還一直偏袒當然我們不會只有聽一面"},{"start":13573.938,"end":13595.046,"text":"所以明天我會召開協調會我也請他去你們這個拜領專線去申訴好不好這個案子很嚴重這個不是只有罵人家弄到後來員工都要去看身心科了都有自殺的傾向我們不要再遺憾的事情發生好不好他是現在進行所以速度要快所以最後我具體要求我們請"},{"start":13599.676,"end":13614.758,"text":"人事總署行政院這邊要有一個很明確的各個部會在最近這五年不是只有給我剛剛統計的數目字我要你比較明確的這些案件你後來處理的狀況是什麼樣子 好不好"},{"start":13615.914,"end":13630.148,"text":"要知道你的處理狀況是什麼樣子另外更重要,我們要趕快建立一個可以立即處理的不要再牛步化了不要每次都要拖一個月兩個月都不會付了你對被害者是要保護的"},{"start":13631.246,"end":13653.074,"text":"前幾天我們剛剛通過吹哨者保護法它是一個很重要的反貪腐嘛對不對其實也是一個反霸凌很重要的啊有人說打抱不平說我的同事或者我被霸凌了現在很好吹哨者保護法已經過了他們會保護你你的身份是不會被洩漏的如果違法的洩漏他秘密的最高可以抓去關關五年而且不能隨便給你調職"},{"start":13654.77,"end":13677.149,"text":"這個救濟的措施都是有的那更重要的是你剛剛講的科技營養人事總署我們的公務員保障法趕快好好修好不好趕快好好修現在很空洞我們現在整個公務員那個那個保障是太空洞了一定要對於我們的被害者保護一定要做好而且要給救濟的機制好不好好 這位農爹不要讓我們那麼優秀的公務員再受到霸凌了畢弟加油 謝謝"},{"start":13686.308,"end":13690.091,"text":"好 謝謝接下來請黃國昌總召謝謝主席是麻煩有請我們的行政院秘書長好 請秘書長"},{"start":13706.369,"end":13728.509,"text":"黃總長你好立書長好12月18號我來內政委員會歷經了我人生以來第一次從來沒有發生過的質詢我面對空蕩蕩的備詢台半個人都沒有立書長不在法規會主任委員沈淑飛不在"},{"start":13729.975,"end":13752.031,"text":"綜合業務處處長不在全部行政院的官員都不在我第一個問題啊12月18號誰叫你們走的我早上已經有做一些說明就是沒有人叫我走所以你自己走的對我想請問一下主席啊那天你有同意他走嗎"},{"start":13753.659,"end":13770.401,"text":"沒有那這個是內政委員會的規矩嗎你沒有同意他走他就自己可以走現在行政院的官員來立法院是橫著走嗎主席沒有同意然後你要走就可以走這個是現在行政院的官員來立法院備詢的態度嗎"},{"start":13773.584,"end":13787.476,"text":"是嗎 請教民主長我要從頭說明開始如果說我當天來講我八點多就在這邊然後一直沒有開會就是那時候一直所以我才問你嘛是誰要你走的嘛"},{"start":13789.237,"end":13813.847,"text":"會議 會議尚未開始你直接回答黃國昌的問題就好黃國昌的問題就好 他問你你不是從早開始講嗎所以我才請教主席嘛他沒有同意你走嘛也沒有人叫你走嘛所以我下一個合邏輯的問題就是對現在的行政院來講在立法院來是自己想走就可以走沒有人要你走"},{"start":13814.807,"end":13842.586,"text":"主席也沒有准你走但是你自己決定要離開那我的問題就來了因為那時候會議的狀態不是那麼清楚所以呢不用請示主席嗎會議的狀態不是那麼清楚所以我愛走就可以走嗎但主席不在等一下等一下先停一下主席他現在怪到你人不在喔他有打電話跟你聯絡嗎沒有而且我跟黃總召也說明一下下午"},{"start":13843.834,"end":13863.467,"text":"秘書長我通知他他也回來了回來的時候會議是休息狀態接著馬上要開會了但是他就說休息狀態主席不在他就要走這個就是最大的問題那今天審訊算的時候我們中間休息難道秘書長也要走嗎"},{"start":13865.953,"end":13886.717,"text":"沒有今天的會議是持續進行所以沒有那樣我現在沒有在問今天的會議啊我一樣啊我請教你的是那一天沒有人要你走主席也沒有准你走然後你就離開了所以我才請教你嘛這個是現在行政院的官員來立法院備詢的時候的態度嗎是這樣嗎如果會議狀態持續的話我們就不會走什麼叫做會議狀態持續的話有人宣布上會嗎"},{"start":13893.601,"end":13915.856,"text":"因為當初我離開了兩點多離開的時候那時候是會議打上的是還沒有開始所以呢所以還沒有開始因為當初的表定是到兩點那場會議下午的時候你有沒有跟張偉聯絡下午的時候後來他那個螢幕上忽然改變了他說這會議已經開始而且現在是休息"},{"start":13916.656,"end":13943.514,"text":"那這個跟我的認知跟我離開的時候是有漢格的因為我離開的時候那時候兩點多那時候是會議還沒開始那時候照理說會議如果還沒有開始那這個會議已經結了來我請教一下趙偉下午的時候您跟他聯絡的時候他是怎麼講的他說他馬上回來他也回來啦而且剛剛不是秘書長啊你回來以後是誰要你走的我說過了是我自己啊"},{"start":13944.912,"end":13973.588,"text":"昭偉請你回來 你也回來了然後你決定自己要走我這樣講好了啦我現在在給你解釋的機會那你剛剛的解釋我必須要老實的跟秘書長報告我無法接受我聽起來昭偉也沒有辦法接受那當然沒有關係啦現在在卓榮泰院長的領導之下行政院的官員大家官威都很大"},{"start":13974.568,"end":13999.631,"text":"大家官威都很大沒有啦不會啦來立法院一副愛來不來我要走就走甚至什麼來來來我們一樣一樣來我們通過了財政收支劃分法你們行政院發言人說什麼收財劃法總預算要從邊我說他散播假訊息政府帶頭搞認知作戰他否認"},{"start":14000.816,"end":14021.591,"text":"他說什麼沒有沒有沒有我是用假設的語氣我說有可能要從編我的行政院發言人喔是用有可能要從編啦來硬拗那如果要看竹子我們就來看竹子來看一下那一天我先講我的立場啦我的行政院發言人搞不清楚狀況自己判斷"},{"start":14030.428,"end":14059.091,"text":"對社會大眾有可能要從邊是在恐嚇國會還是在恐嚇人民還有臉硬拗喔我們的立場很清楚啊他不下台我清楚的表示我們一定提案發言人士相關的預算我們一定會大砍我說出去的話我一定會兌現其他黨團支持或不支持我們都尊重但這是我們的立場但結果"},{"start":14060.803,"end":14067.006,"text":"對於自己釋放假訊息毫無反省繼續出來亂喔我為什麼要繼續出來亂喔他說要調逐治稿所以我說他說只是可能甚至需要重編可能甚至前面是什麼話 來他說呢明年度的總預算本身就會受到嚴重的衝擊來 請問一下"},{"start":14090.782,"end":14115.78,"text":"明年的預算指的就是2025年今年的預算民主黨受到什麼衝擊了大院審議的結果什麼叫大院審議的結果因為現在在審議現在在審議什麼那個預算啊 總預算他所講說因為財化法通過所以明年度的預算本身就會受到嚴重的衝擊受到什麼衝擊"},{"start":14118.383,"end":14126.008,"text":"請說明因為我看不懂啊我完全看不懂啊因為解釋上來講到底那個生肖"},{"start":14127.248,"end":14154.25,"text":"生效日期以後那個是到底是今年的預算到底是114年預算還是從115年預算開始所以行政院的立場是什麼行政院的立場是什麼行政院立場上114年數我們不會從編就按照這樣大院審議結果我們依法行政院行政院不就有立場了嗎行政院的立場才一套發言人出來講另外一套"},{"start":14155.583,"end":14179.169,"text":"行政院發言人的工作是什麼啊是精準的傳遞行政院的政策立場給全台灣社會知道結果你們派出來的發言人不是精準的傳遞行政院的立場是在散播假訊息發言人表達的是說往後也不是只有今年度可能往後等一下等一下他講的是"},{"start":14180.572,"end":14197.301,"text":"大家不是在看組織稿嗎我就在上面給你看啊明年度的預算本身就會受到嚴重的衝擊如何受到嚴重的衝擊嘛什麼叫做我不要生氣你們行政院發言人可以這樣子出來隨便亂講話我在給你嚴肅的講這件事情"},{"start":14203.291,"end":14227.478,"text":"你在上面跟我耍水皮一次喔我沒有跟你耍水皮一次我說發言人已經對外說明了所以發言人的說明你是接受的是嗎是吧行政院的發言人出來散播假訊息不道歉還硬凹說要看逐字稿說他只是甚至可能那甚至可能前一句是什麼"},{"start":14228.615,"end":14256.678,"text":"明年度的預算就會受到嚴重的衝擊衝擊在哪裡所以我才今天請教你衝擊在哪裡啊你想來給大家聽聽嘛要看審議的結果看什麼審議的結果總預算審議的結果總預算審議的結果跟財政收支劃分法有什麼關係最後不管怎麼樣還是要看立法院審議的結果對啊那跟財政收支劃分法有什麼關係你有沒有要從邊啊你有沒有要從邊啊"},{"start":14260.165,"end":14261.645,"text":"我有說錯嗎好好接下來請第一學中委員好感謝主席感謝秘書長"},{"start":14291.462,"end":14302.09,"text":"阿丁委員好運輸長好 緩和一下情緒啦這罐阿姨 以前罵好多次了不會生氣啦這人會這罐改善的資料我在這裡 今天透過我們法輪專案檢討的議題我稍後要先跟議事長解答兩件事"},{"start":14317.574,"end":14321.517,"text":"這件事就是我們本人現在切記在推動這個商業經濟的升值當然商業建築對我們來說是非常重要當我們好位商業分區的居民居民已經通過這個環境目前以產業園區抱肩作業的地方已經提送內政部門"},{"start":14343.53,"end":14346.191,"text":"依區域計劃法規定取得開發許可,這個隔離歷代也規劃依照符合內政部及農業部的所規範,希望可以請秘書長,這個後續,這個後續的進度,想可以請秘書長,跟我們互相講一下,說威脅的定數,給我們推動快一點,這樣好嗎?"},{"start":14371.189,"end":14382.536,"text":"我跟委員報告原來的案子送過來的時候大家跨部會討論可能還有幾點的疑慮農業部說那個好像他們水源區經過的地方這看要怎麼處理另外一個說原來報過來說有哪些廠商可能會進駐那是需求端嘛要不然我們開了沒有人來也怪怪的嘛現在說"},{"start":14398.967,"end":14413.822,"text":"當初報過來跟現在好像有有換了不太一樣那我們就盡快的對盡快的重新重新再重新再盤點然後再送過來我們現在用電啦用電啦用水啦都中文文"},{"start":14414.463,"end":14423.708,"text":"當我們中央新疆通過,讓土地變均,變均過後,我們就可以開始造商,開始增加就業機會,地方經濟可以更加發展。另外就是我們分林的寶宗產業園區,我們環境國會一定當一一二年十二月對設施計劃地理的改動,這個環境影響經過的範圍,"},{"start":14442.959,"end":14457.532,"text":"飛機啦 經濟國有承諾說會加速來管理後續這些程序這個國分審會請秘書長幫我們追蹤一下既然經濟部有這樣的說明 我們就來追蹤我們真的 我們很希望"},{"start":14460.515,"end":14464.239,"text":"這個就業機會因為那分流齁林考所開始都漸漸加以老年化小年輕人都出外去做工作我們如果在地自己有就業機會小年輕人有力度也可以直接來照顧大人促進到我們當地的經濟的一個發展林考所也可以增加齁"},{"start":14482.235,"end":14498.241,"text":"如果有產業發展是最好的,事實上我在國防會擔任主委的時候也推動地方創生,事實上雲林有很多很多的年輕人他們也從事地方創生的一些活動,而且表現都非常非常好我相信我們行政院也樂觀其成,這個國分10塊多少我們今天針對我們討論的議題就是這個法輪的事件的國分,我們這個法輪通告"},{"start":14509.906,"end":14511.427,"text":"現在有更新資料了,據名通報的案件大概是126件126件,這樣算起來還有很多"},{"start":14537.055,"end":14547.257,"text":"比我們預估要多啦所以這個我們還是怎麼樣來盡快處理所以我們這個公務單位這個過年的問題愛情來檢視我們現今的這個大平台當然最大的問題就是要求具體 具體檢舉所以當我們勞動"},{"start":14559.58,"end":14564.227,"text":"互發生問題後大量爆料,在先前公開說這個平台要求拒引檢舉,再來我們這案件就大量的減少有時候有的有些事,像我以前在電影座代表會主席"},{"start":14575.422,"end":14579.786,"text":"我只說公所,甚至連管府的法令案都有,都有電線來到我們這邊所以過去的施工過程,都是當地方政府他們裡面的人出台公所這樣而已,經過到我們這個行政調查所以我們是要透明化,可以讓大家對"},{"start":14597.8,"end":14601.363,"text":"我們這個公務,公務隊,這個人在說的鐵飯碗,這個職業,大家可以更加安心來報考,還是說,用以來來承擔這些我們他們公務上的一些責任,有的最近我們公務隊,就真的客公務另外的人越來越少了,"},{"start":14618.482,"end":14625.707,"text":"對啊,如果有這個過分,可能我們行政院也要想辦法去改變要怎麼說,能夠啟用年輕人的管理來倒立我們這個公家這個公務體系,像這樣好啦,這樣,我要給技術長休息一下好,謝謝,謝謝我預想啦,阿杜啊,要幫你拜託一件工作好,我知道,我知道再拜託你幫我們推廣一下好,謝謝,謝謝"},{"start":14649.121,"end":14656.045,"text":"好 接下來請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在我們請王紅薇委員好 謝謝主席我先請我們的來 行政院秘書長好 請秘書長"},{"start":14672.947,"end":14701.698,"text":"王委員好秘書長好那麼今天基本上我還是在關心有關於就是一直不停存在在我們公務體系裡面的霸凌案那現在以這個人事總署的官員因為他羞辱這個部署的霸凌案他記了兩大過免職這跟之前的勞動部那北區分署署長是一樣的那這兩大過的免職基本上是依據公務人員考機法嗎"},{"start":14704.653,"end":14710.135,"text":"秘書長知道嗎理論上是這樣但是這個個案我沒有那麼仔細的去了解那我現在跟秘書長來說明我們現在如果依照公務人員考積法他確實有可以一次計兩大過處分但是呢目前並沒有明文規定有關於霸凌啊或者是性騷案等等之類或者是什麼酒駕獨駕之類那現在其實"},{"start":14733.161,"end":14751.615,"text":"司法院考试院想要修法可是迟迟没有拿出来所以我觉得我们行政院应该跟考试院密切联系相关的修法也就是说现在看起来我们可能因应舆论上的压力媒体上的压力说哇我就给他两大过处分"},{"start":14752.395,"end":14780.82,"text":"可是日後不要出現爭議也就是說在法上面沒有那麼明確因為公務人員一次給他記兩大過處分是很嚴重的對不對應該很清楚所以不要免掉以後的爭議所以第一個希望我們行政院跟考試院能夠趕快針對這些相關的懲處辦法在法律上不夠周延的地方趕快修法補強可不可以"},{"start":14782.044,"end":14808.125,"text":"我同意委員的看法兩個部分一個部分修法的部分我們跟考試院已經有聯絡了看看要怎麼修法這個是委員剛才提到的第二個就是說計兩大過的確是非常重的處分那當事人基本上可以提出他可以提申訴的那就會到保訓會去保訓會如果還沒有他還可以提救濟所以有好多的關他可以提出來當然"},{"start":14809.486,"end":14814.673,"text":"如果不到那個程度做這樣的決定已經造成傷害也不好所以我同意就是說怎麼樣系統化我覺得把法律上面把它強化第一個也不要讓公務人員"},{"start":14824.344,"end":14846.189,"text":"就是他受到這個不白之淵第二當然最重要是我們對外先說給他借糧大家過處分不要過一陣子之後他申復成功然後根本就這個這個是假的那另外請問一下我們大齡通報平台在上線之後現在收案的件數是多少呢高委員"},{"start":14848.894,"end":14873.046,"text":"具名的具名的現在是他有彙整了因為有些很多案子是相關聯的大概有126個案子126對對對對那那個未具名呢未具名的是12件12件所以126個具名的案件其實這個數目非常多因為現在短短應該不到一個月嘛對不對所以這126個"},{"start":14874.787,"end":14890.843,"text":"都會立刻的加以處理嗎會調查他一個月要給我們調查的結果好就是一個月相關各相關除非他有特別的理由要講理由才可以再延一個月好因為時間關係我想請教一下我剛才也問勞動部部長"},{"start":14892.805,"end":14918.698,"text":"也就是說在我們現在這麼多公家機關出現霸凌事件之後其實很多都擔心公家機關官官相護而且沒有辦法真正的能夠來處理所以我們現在很多的基層公務人員的團體都要求希望能夠比照能夠讓公務員納入職安法職業安全衛生法的保障"},{"start":14919.198,"end":14940.891,"text":"好那當然因為職安法是針對一般勞工那所以這一部分因為勞動部長已經已經同意我他說他也會跟這個考試院來做研商因為我們也要去回應基層公務人員的心聲所以秘書長我們行政院可不可以把這個至少納入考量因為不要每次都說"},{"start":14941.351,"end":14968.756,"text":"哎呀這個是勞工公務人員不是用這個體系可是這個體系事實上我必須講這個公信力已經現在不為基層公務人員所信任所以這部分我們行政院可不可以去跟考試院去做演商就是這樣就是說您剛剛提到的這個職工法那個部分的保障那我們會把它實際上的這個條文保障加到"},{"start":14969.912,"end":14986.906,"text":"公務人員保障法裡面來那就會形成有同樣的這個保障基礎了所以你要修公務人員保障法對不對我有看到你報告多久會提出我們希望說看看能不能這個會就是下個會期就把它提出來"},{"start":14987.566,"end":15010.195,"text":"好這是你們的修法的計畫但是我還是希望你們能夠去回應基層公務人員的需求跟考試委員去商量一下如果大家真的覺得治安法而且現在還大家希望組工會了對不對公務人員還希望組工會那是不是在部分的部分讓他們覺得更安心他們可不可以去適用治安法的一個保障好不好好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":15017.242,"end":15032.339,"text":"接下来请黄建斌委员黄建斌委员黄建斌委员不在好那发言委员除不在场者其余均已发言完毕好那OK请请这个高金委员会议询问"},{"start":15036.458,"end":15053.271,"text":"請問一下趙偉我從早上到現在而且看到今天的這個霸凌案的專案報告請問一下我們上一次會議的議事錄是不是能夠念一下秘書長你知道我們的會議記錄是什麼嗎通過的請上來一下請秘書長你看到我們的第二案沒有"},{"start":15062.622,"end":15073.668,"text":"有鑑於本12月18號內政委員會審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院部分行政院秘書長龔明星已至會議室被尋卻接獲神秘電話後未經召委同意下隨即離開會場明顯迴避國會的監督 原此為了維護國會的尊嚴要求行政院在一週內向立法院內政委員會提出調查報告"},{"start":15090.416,"end":15114.851,"text":"以釐清事實真相,並追究相關失職人員責任聽到了沒有?你今天雖然從頭到尾一開始一肩扛可是你今天為什麼沒有寫報告出來呢?已經一週啦你今天的報告除了你今天的這個暴鄰案之外除了要審查你預算之外你還要有一個就是你未經召委同意下隨即離開會場"},{"start":15116.872,"end":15120.556,"text":"你迴避了國會的監督更何況從頭到尾我來講一遍一早的是民進黨佔據的主席台不讓我們開會對吧後來召委進來了拿了內政委員會的麥克風在那邊說我們要延後開會把時間延長你們都還在"},{"start":15141.465,"end":15146.308,"text":"然後呢 到了下午祖密打電話給您了您來了 您坐在那裡隨即影像看得很清楚你接了一通電話之後全部鳥獸散可是你今天的回答你都推給朝偉說你人沒來"},{"start":15159.838,"end":15161.619,"text":"說你人來了 召委不在所以你看到以為會議還沒有開始你就離開了是這樣嗎你今天不僅僅是沒有針對我們的譴責第二案做一個釐清調查還有責任釐清還有追究相關失職人員的責任之外你還把這個東西推給召委我身為內政委員會的委員我看不下去"},{"start":15187.352,"end":15199.182,"text":"本來今天不用會議詢問的我的建議待會如果我們的秘書長不針對這件事情公開的在國會道歉的話我們就不審理預算 謝謝好 謝謝高金委員那請秘書長回應"},{"start":15211.803,"end":15236.762,"text":"不是說明是針對針對我們議事錄確定你的說明我們都聽到了議事錄第二請問你看了沒有秘書長你們有看過這個嗎你的國會聯絡人對我現在拿給你我看過了一週之內那你看過你為什麼今天還不這麼做沒有你是表示國會啊我沒有表示國會行政跟立法是平行的耶"},{"start":15237.827,"end":15261.377,"text":"你不要那麼兇嘛我沒有那麼兇那你拍桌子啊我是在跟你講理對啊那我現在在看啊那你今天要追究責任追究什麼責任追究責任是你的責任這是譴責案已經通過了那我就接受譴責啊那你要跟他道歉啊我沒有辦法道歉為什麼沒有辦法道歉因為我剛剛我剛剛已經做了說明了這裡告訴你一周內要向立法院內政委會提出調查報告好不好"},{"start":15264.75,"end":15268.552,"text":"我會提供調查報告我會提供調查報告那剛剛秘書長有說抱歉 我們的譴責案是說一週內請你看一下時間照理說你今天應該要提出一個調查報告然後要追究相關私職人員既然您剛剛已經說您意見考下來 請問一下要怎麼處理"},{"start":15293.739,"end":15300.777,"text":"秘書長剛剛好像有說你們會提在今天以前提出來你們提出來之後我們才審行政院的預算"},{"start":15301.923,"end":15326.866,"text":"所以因為我們等一下處理完臨時提案我們預計要休息給大家用餐那我們下午先審陸委會跟海基會給行政院時間那我們陸委會海基會審完行政院再回來行政院可以這樣嗎你們除非你們在我們是不是在我們中午休息時間之前你們提出來"},{"start":15328.607,"end":15336.511,"text":"還有相關的責任喔請你告訴我沒有什麼清楚因為你們沒有跟召委沒有跟我們的主席講的時候你就離開了你該備詢的時間沒有在備詢台上沒有在位置上你知道內政委員會那一天也在這邊一套糊塗內政部的部長從頭做到尾"},{"start":15354.978,"end":15362.245,"text":"你知道嗎 行政院都可以這樣子帶頭違法嗎立法院三讀通過的經法補償 卓院長說不通過就不通過嗎不給六萬塊就不給六萬塊嗎你們從頭到尾都是可以這麼二把的嗎你們到底眼中還有沒有國會的國會你們眼中到底還有沒有我們中華民國的憲法"},{"start":15378.168,"end":15397.778,"text":"我同意剛剛我們的召委這件事情總是要給一個交代不是您在這邊講的就算說你一間扛起責任你以為怎麼樣以為怎麼樣不是這個樣子的我相信今天不只是國民黨的立法委員無黨籍的立法委員包括民進黨的立法委員都覺得你在這邊實在是很藐視國會啊"},{"start":15402.534,"end":15429.926,"text":"好 如果你今天記錄下來以後是換執政黨執政的話另外的執政黨執政如果有人這樣走的話你們就不要提出譴責案秘書長您剛剛在本席質詢的時候也有表達嘛其實是不應該啦我們這個備詢列席的那所以是不是請你們就是再盡快來提出"},{"start":15431.947,"end":15459.816,"text":"當然本席先才是啦針對剛剛高金委員講的確實這個譴責案兩案也當天通過了那在場的也有這個246六位委員他的這個提共同提案所以請行政院能夠在今天以內提出調查報告我們看到調查報告我們才審查行政院的預算好不好"},{"start":15460.839,"end":15464.222,"text":"好謝謝好那接著請張宏祿召委事實上我們已經有寫了我要講話召委我覺得啦剛剛講的大家講的都有道理不過就程序問題就那個他們的譴責案議事錄確定我們是"},{"start":15485.382,"end":15499.351,"text":"這個禮拜一才那個所以如果今天才禮拜三那一個禮拜我覺得這個時間也還沒到啦我這邊提出我們的會議記錄是這樣子的這個是白紙黑字我們是禮拜一才處理的"},{"start":15507.959,"end":15524.293,"text":"不是過一年 那我們禮拜一通過了那他們收到公文或什麼一個禮拜之內我覺得這樣子是合理的啦我覺得這個是合理的那我本席可以請教在場的委員表達這個意見好 那先請牛許庭委員"},{"start":15529.444,"end":15545.719,"text":"謝謝主席 雖然這個張宏祿召會講的也有一定的道理啦但是議事錄本身只是針對會議紀錄的一個確認而已那實際上譴責案生效的時間只要那場會議是合法的會議當然就是從那邊開始起算我是覺得這還是可以把道理講清楚第二個民主黨你如果用我覺得沒有責任這種話來開脫是不對的"},{"start":15548.321,"end":15562.075,"text":"那當然嘛現在大家因為各自有政黨立場那就大家講說不會啊沒有關係啊但是其實大家都還是立法委員你實在很難想像不管是誰執政不管今天誰站在這個質詢台上台下沒有官員那事情本來就是很難看的事情"},{"start":15563.288,"end":15587.42,"text":"那你今天又沒有辦法把這個過程做一個清楚的還原又沒有辦法給大家一個交代也沒有辦法跟這個這個不備詢的這件事情對社會大眾有一個公開的道歉這實在是不太合理啦我希望秘書長待會用中午休息的時間冷靜一下好好的想一想把事情交代清楚這樣子大家還可以好生好氣來審預算要不然喔這後面血流成河那實在是沒辦法好不好我希望秘書長想清楚啦謝謝"},{"start":15589.145,"end":15617.423,"text":"秘書長此例不可開所以本席希望我們這個12月18號這件事呢不要開一個不好的先例所以確實啦我們等一下處理完提案我們會休息那請行政院這邊看看可不可以加速這個如果你們可以在我們等一下審完我們在預計兩點要繼續審預算我給大家中午休息大概一個小時用餐所以也給行政院一些時間好嗎秘書長"},{"start":15618.493,"end":15625.94,"text":"好 OK 請秘書長回座那請問這個各位委員我們好"},{"start":15626.96,"end":15650.297,"text":"那我就先針對剛剛委員的發言本席請問一下是不是我們還是請行政院在兩點以前如果可以提出這個譴責案裡面所寫的這個報告那我們就兩點我們準時的審查行政院的預算那如果不行我們就請"},{"start":15652.038,"end":15669.697,"text":"行政院這個提報告那我們就先審查陸委會跟海基會的還是說大家希望就是照張宏祿召委的提議說再給他們一些時間所以本席請教一下在場委員的意見怎麼樣"},{"start":15679.989,"end":15701.562,"text":"那如果大家對本席這樣的安排沒有特別意見我們就請行政院請行政院能夠盡快提出這個該有的報告那我們也請我們的內政委員會我們邀請內委會海基會能夠在下午兩點以前請他們務必到場列席"},{"start":15702.622,"end":15725.365,"text":"接下来我们向委员会宣告我们委员高金素美黄建斌委员所提书面质询列入记录刊登公报书面质询和未及答复部分请相关单位于一周内以书面答复并复制本会我们现在处理临时提案一案请宣读"},{"start":15727.942,"end":15755.43,"text":"為使預算審查更有效率行政機關執行預算更為明確立法院內政委員會審議預算的行政機關自一百一十五年預算書送達時應並送細部計畫說明書說明預算編列依據規劃執行方式的公本委員會參考是否有當進行公決提案人徐欣盈張志倫徐宇甄宣讀完畢好請問這個臨時提案大家有沒有意見好沒有意見那我們就照案這樣子好好"},{"start":15757.864,"end":15757.884,"text":"請這個張章偉"},{"start":15761.539,"end":15787.896,"text":"有兩個啦 我覺得兩個可能我們要思考一下我們要想一下不是啦 我有兩點啦你預算書雖然是我覺得立法院跟行政院我們是平行的那如果是要做這樣子的應該是不是立法院對所有的部會要一致 第一個第二個 我想要了解一下"},{"start":15789.657,"end":15808.664,"text":"你們所有細部計畫說明書就我編過預算不是所有的東西都有細部說明書喔我們如果當過首長的都知道這樣你們做的到嗎沒有的東西你們生的出來還是有沒有要修正如果要修正是不是要跟大家溝通一下"},{"start":15811.602,"end":15837.75,"text":"還是要不要請他說明沒有 這個跟行政院這個是我們針對內政委員會的相關單位難道行政院要代為說明因為這個純粹是我們委員通過他們要照做那我先回復一下張昭偉的這個因為這個在立法院目前包含這個會期的我們拿到的預算書裡面如果委員會有通過過的"},{"start":15839.15,"end":15859.302,"text":"他們行政單位都會照樣執行包含我們這次園民會包含這個農業部還有像漁業署他們都有提出相關他們行政單位知道就是他的編列依據還有一些規劃執行方式"},{"start":15860.262,"end":15871.524,"text":"就是他所能夠的詳細他們提出來所以這個部分在這一次的預算審查有些單位他已經提出來所以行政單位是知道的"},{"start":15874.229,"end":15900.685,"text":"我不是反對你說這樣子只是他裡面我們必須說有一些預算是真的沒有細部計畫那我所知道的是農業部他們是立法院審議後15日內他就農業部將尾辦及補助計畫預算這些東西送來我覺得這是合理的可是如果我們沒有寫清楚有的東西"},{"start":15902.266,"end":15904.548,"text":"確實是沒有續覆計畫那個預算編列是沒有的啊所以 等於"},{"start":15910.558,"end":15932.093,"text":"等一下我們如果把他修正跟農業部一樣我覺得是OK但如果只有單純細部計畫這裡面很多的那個預算是沒有細部計畫的他連生都生不出來啦我是覺得我們內政委員會我們提出的也要讓大家可以說我們內政委員會提出的是對的"},{"start":15934.859,"end":15940.764,"text":"仿效這個會期農業部的做法所以您建議是這樣子的將委辦及補助計劃預算細部計劃說明書"},{"start":15952.506,"end":15972.181,"text":"報告 不好意思因為這次園民會有那我們請高紀委來我在省內政部預算的時候其實我有一個主決議就是這麼講的啦就是請內政部參照農業部的這個提供的一些相關的西部計畫我是有做這樣一個主決議啦然後跟大家說明跟報告一下謝謝我說"},{"start":15977.621,"end":15991.486,"text":"因為農業部有這樣的一個做法那高金委員事實上他在預算提案裡面也有類似的那所以我們是不是比照這樣的做法我們可以來做這樣子好那請年委員"},{"start":15993.616,"end":16022.919,"text":"謝謝喔 我們那個禮拜一在審客家委員會的時候我有看到客家委員會有一本啦其實我想召委要的就是都要比照啦就是說 而且不是在說預算審完之後才處理因為預算審完之後那也沒意思了嘛其實應該是在審預算的時候做一個補充的資料這樣子其實也可以節省行政單位在溝通的時候的一些時間所以我覺得客委會的那個模式看大家參佐一樣因為才看到大家還有點印象這樣的模式是不是可以參佐還是說這就是農業部的模式是不是行政機關說明一下然後以利大家到時候做出共識做出決定 以上"},{"start":16027.002,"end":16044.996,"text":"我不是說這個提案不好是說文字我們要修正有些預算是絕對是沒有細部計畫說明書的如果你要這樣他們有的真的拿不出來這個沒有辦法這個我們必須行政的東西我們要寫清楚"},{"start":16046.827,"end":16065.483,"text":"其實我們這樣寫行政單位他拿出他所能的最終還是委員在省預算今天即便我們照行政單位他給本席的我們這樣修改修改完最後他拿"},{"start":16066.724,"end":16089.01,"text":"拿出來的如果委員有疑慮要刪要動那還是在委員手上所以如果真的要修正的話也不要只有農業部我們農業部還有像園民會等於是他們都有寫過西部計畫這樣的做法那我們請行政單位還是說明一下"},{"start":16097.219,"end":16113.72,"text":"報告委員這個因為本院的預算都是基本行政維持費所以呢農業部還有其他的有提供的部分呢就是委辦跟補助所以委辦補助的部分呢我們是可以以委員的意見來辦理那其他的部分是不是請委員就是"},{"start":16115.782,"end":16142.76,"text":"讓我們就是文字修正因為希望說是在我們的預算書送立法院審議後15日內將委辦及補助計畫的預算的細部計畫可不可以建議這樣子我們比較有可能會那本席要了解一下你所謂的補助計畫我們這次內政委員會審預算的時候包含內政部包含本席記的好幾個單位"},{"start":16144.421,"end":16171.394,"text":"我們看預算書就是很粗略結果我們一要在審預算當天又給我很詳細的那些都是叫做補助計劃嗎還是什麼所以我們會這樣子要的原因是你在審查的當天你才給我然後就拗我們說你看我有細部計劃請問我們怎麼看那我們也是為了替人民把關監督所以我們希望"},{"start":16171.894,"end":16181.886,"text":"你更早你就給詳盡的我們跟我們的整個幕僚團隊我們都會仔細的替民眾監督把關嘛我們的目的也是要了解"},{"start":16184.115,"end":16202.707,"text":"一定要寫說違辦及補助計劃只有這個我們都是基本形成維持比如說水電費或什麼都是一個工作項目就是立場的那有計劃的部分因為我們也都沒有什麼中長程那都是基本維運的部分所以針對這個部分"},{"start":16207.984,"end":16216.586,"text":"那這樣 那這樣 我們針對可以可以可以 莊惠莊惠我是不是說一下應該是115年預算書送達時有細部計畫說明書者應一併送達有細部計畫要一併送達這樣就解決我們要的問題了也不會是沒有的但是本席還有一個重點是"},{"start":16233.157,"end":16250.178,"text":"沒有沒有本行希望行政單位對於預算編列的依據還有這個工作重點執行方式這個你們可以寫每個單位都可以寫我們如果通過了他們還是可以寫讓我們理解嘛所以我可以嘛那你們不要刪掉嘛那"},{"start":16251.419,"end":16259.746,"text":"這個要嘛照你們剛剛說的這樣不然就照剛剛講的可是你說若有那他跟你說是若有有我沒有講若有我說有"},{"start":16264.733,"end":16289.502,"text":"那委辦補助因為現在目前都是委辦補助而已所以整個行政院構計會都是這樣子我們的部分可是大部位他們有中長城我們沒有我們也沒有科技尤其是中長城計畫現在不是指行政院而已啊現在是指內政部或內政委員會的其他的我們不是指行政院就是我們院本部的部分就是委辦補助因為你們也在內政委員會對"},{"start":16292.663,"end":16314.319,"text":"是不是可以就好可以委扮不住但是後面那個編列依據工作重點不是不是工作你可以加工作重點還有規劃執行方式等規劃執行方式不要刪掉因為你們規劃你們的規劃的想法跟你們執行方式還是寫嘛好不好那前面可以前面"},{"start":16315.72,"end":16341.39,"text":"可以立法院審議後15日內仿效農業部還有園民會做法可以嗎將委辦及補助計劃那後面是什麼預算補助計劃的預算細部計劃說明書好不好好那我們就這樣修正文字那這樣各位委員有沒有意見修正文字的部分我們沒有看到好那現在我們是調整一下你叫他趕緊修正趕緊來大家看看"},{"start":16347.385,"end":16355.468,"text":"我們知道行政院但是他這邊寫的是內政委員會內政委員會包括很多的部會不是只有你們行政院"},{"start":16394.401,"end":16394.441,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":16419.406,"end":16442.686,"text":"本席想請教一下你們不能等立法院審議後15日內這個應該早就有了吧所以是不是就是預算書送達時應該仿效農業部園民會做法因為你不可能是審議後15日內才送你這個應該早有了吧"},{"start":16453.456,"end":16470.923,"text":"所以不是立法院審議你是送達立法院不要加審議啦送達立法院後15日所以因為你講審議我們這次審議到幾月才那個我去掉審議兩個字可以嗎好那這個Kobe給那個這個算"},{"start":16474.284,"end":16485.524,"text":"可能唸一遍大家知道以後是嗎 可以嗎這個唸一遍好 那本席先唸一遍然後大家看意見然後如果OK我們請議事人員Coby"},{"start":16487.748,"end":16498.916,"text":"我們為使預算審查更有效率行政機關執行預算更為明確立法院內政委員會審議預算的行政機關自115年預算書送立法院後15日內仿效"},{"start":16507.469,"end":16534.688,"text":"应该要写提供因为你你仿效这个是后面你说明的提供仿效农业部原民会做法将委办及补助计划预算细部计划说明书说明预算编列依据工作重点规划执行方式等供本委员会参考是否有当尽情公决行政机关这样可以好"},{"start":16541.062,"end":16563.579,"text":"對好好那如果可以的話我們現在請也不用仿效應該是提供農業部欸欸欸等一下對不用仿效了提供提供這個對對的做法欸沒有也是要仿效要啦要啦要啦不叫仿效就是其實像農業部跟人民會的"},{"start":16564.605,"end":16573.911,"text":"我要講仿效怪怪的啦要明就是比照比照對應該是對對對比照比照比照比照對對對這文字的部分對比照農業部園民會做法對啦比照比照好可以這個那請大家稍等一下"},{"start":16611.923,"end":16616.806,"text":"那我們下午因為現在又超過一點了我們下午2點10分預計開始審查預算"},{"start":16632.9,"end":16635.942,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":16659.902,"end":16671.065,"text":"好 現在請各位委員參考這個桌上我們這個建議修正的文字臨時提案的修正文字"},{"start":16697.382,"end":16708.73,"text":"好本席請教各位委員臨時提案修正的部分是否照案通過有沒有意見沒有好謝謝修正通過"},{"start":16710.458,"end":16731.411,"text":"那现在我们休息到下午2点10分14点10分也请我们内政委员会通知陆委会海基会如果2点10分以前行政院没有提出这个报告我们就先审查陆委会跟海基会的预算谢谢现在休息"},{"start":16757.558,"end":16760.922,"text":"三位一人喔"},{"start":16762.063,"end":16762.303,"text":"謝謝觀賞,訂閱,按讚!"},{"start":16786.929,"end":16794.335,"text":"謝謝觀看,請訂閱、按讚及分享。"},{"start":19386.409,"end":19387.779,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":21041.935,"end":21046.018,"text":"要丟到那个1000兆几块七天一轮啊"},{"start":21046.607,"end":21055.059,"text":"對,因為我看光了,一定要去啊那什麼樣?沒有啦,看光啦,那時候看燈的啊因為我是新北的,看燈那時候我有去"},{"start":21062.228,"end":21077.058,"text":"創工協會我以前做理事長啊創工那時候有靠你經營啊,因為喔,我們辦會的單位,我們不在那裡啊因為創工王要表明啊,現在差都幾千了啊啊,現在我們差不多有四、五百個啊但是你也是要幫他,要人家幫忙啊"},{"start":21097.893,"end":21098.594,"text":"唉唷唉唷唉唷唉唷"},{"start":21156.571,"end":21157.352,"text":"在開始進行審查預算之前"},{"start":21170.623,"end":21194.984,"text":"是不是先確立我們現在是要審查行政院的預算還是陸委會的預算秘書長我們剛剛內政委員會的部分委員是有提議希望秘書長能夠"},{"start":21198.479,"end":21211.811,"text":"提供報告還有道歉秘書長你表達一下你的報告是不是有準備好以及是否向內政委員會來致歉前秘書長我們報告是有準備但是剛剛有很多的委員指教"},{"start":21223.806,"end":21244.218,"text":"有準備,那要不要給大家看,大家要不要看那是之前準備的,今天之前準備的今天之前,所以剛剛沒有在就今天的開會然後去趕快就今天開會,橫著整個的情況看要不要做調整嗎"},{"start":21245.66,"end":21264.959,"text":"對啊那這個如果是這樣的話就我們就按照一個禮拜的時間禮拜一意思就是確認嘛那我們可能就下禮拜一之間如果需要補充的話我們就在那時候再來交不然就是我們就是今天之前我們寫的"},{"start":21267.045,"end":21287.862,"text":"那好啦 如果是這樣的話 我們就先審查陸委會的預算我們陸委會跟海基會預算審查完之後 我們會再請行政院回來看看你們是不是交報告或者是怎麼樣好不好因為不然這樣時間可能也會再拖延下去"},{"start":21289.589,"end":21296.351,"text":"請問一下,你現在要請那兩單位還是要叫他們擔責擔?叫秘書長擔責擔,還是要擔他?我可以明確的才是,那請秘書長還有相關同仁你們可以回去針對今天上午委員提出來的所有的質詢的意見"},{"start":21316.937,"end":21343.142,"text":"以及我們上午的會議結束前多位委員所表達的期望行政院提供的報告以及希望秘書長能夠致歉這一件事你們先去做你們的討論行政院的可以先行離席但是下午下午我們陸委會跟海基會"},{"start":21344.162,"end":21357.739,"text":"审查到我们认为可以请行政院回来的时候再请我们的议事人员通知行政院相关的列席官员还有秘书长再回来好 本席做以上的才是"},{"start":21359.721,"end":21386.099,"text":"不是那現在等到幾點就看我們的陸委會還機會審到幾點這點本席也無法掌握好不好我會這樣問是因為我希望雖然我們省預算有省預算的效率但是行政部門他們也有行政的效率他們也有很多工作可以處理那如果說可以我們如果審到5點或5點半還沒有審完的話是不是跟他們說你們都看完就不用再回來了還是怎樣請主席清楚說明一下"},{"start":21387.78,"end":21414.831,"text":"我沒有理解錯的話今天的議程是到所有討論事項處理完畢嗎對所以今天無論如何要把這件事情處理完畢而且行政單位我們在審查預算中行政單位本來就是整個完全的配合立法院我想這是正常的那我們給行政院包含秘書長跟幕僚可以這個沒關係本席說可以離席但是不離席也沒關係但是本席說可以離席但是"},{"start":21416.472,"end":21428.162,"text":"要請你們回來 所以你們都要回來不是沒關係 您的意思"},{"start":21432.86,"end":21449.074,"text":"沒有我是希望行政院秘書長因為他的報告他剛剛言下之意是這是今天以前寫的他也知道拿出來可能很多委員會炸鍋所以我請秘書長呢回去好好寫如果到下午再拿出來的"},{"start":21451.278,"end":21475.032,"text":"那時候我們大概就要這個好好的看這個上午的質詢大家到底有沒有充分的理解好 早上來 請高靖維我真的覺得你太善良了 目的良善但是我認為就是說那一天秘書長打電話跟你講說他要過來那個叫欺騙 你懂嗎這個不是說"},{"start":21476.053,"end":21494.882,"text":"召委在不在然後他以為會議沒有開他離開我剛剛一直講清楚是就是他是接了一通電話然後掛了電話起身就離開讓我們那麼多委員在這邊沒有行政官員質詢我們也質詢了很段時間啊是不對嗎對"},{"start":21495.962,"end":21501.846,"text":"那就讓他等吧我們是不是要請他們提那個報告你剛剛還說他其實一早就提到報告了為什麼不拿出來呢現在又說提早拿出來我們就會炸鍋我覺得一代說謊"},{"start":21512.854,"end":21534.273,"text":"我剛稍微瞄了一下 抱歉抱歉 稍微一再說謊 這個我沒有辦法接受 磁力一開以後立法院到底要不要對行政官員有一點約束呢是 那高進委員您建議是怎麼樣我現在就讓他留下來啊那他們的報告就讓 報告拿出來看一下嘛"},{"start":21540.755,"end":21559.39,"text":"有有有好像他有說要重寫秘書長是吧有嗎有說重寫下午下午再拿來吧秘書長對對他會做修改那這樣要讓他修改好那委員提議要看那請發下去來請發下去給所有委員看"},{"start":21562.393,"end":21575.952,"text":"對啊 預算是他到底要不要審嘛那天本來就是要審他們的預算啊不是嗎 趙偉是他們自己不願意審預算啊他自己不看重自己的預算啊我們為什麼要讓他擔心呢"},{"start":21577.602,"end":21595.258,"text":"本席本來是想說節省時間因為今天審查好幾個單位的預算但是我們尊重每一位委員的提議所以我們現在請行政院的報告是不是發下去讓所有委員看也請委員們看完之後表達一下我們接下來我們是不是"},{"start":21605.228,"end":21616.328,"text":"先審陸委會的預算還是說如果大家覺得OK那當然本席會尊重委員的提議"},{"start":21618.806,"end":21636.053,"text":"主席是不是先先把單位我就是看了我相信大家一定會炸鍋不是你善不善良的問題而是立法院到底要不要開始先立"},{"start":21636.533,"end":21655.268,"text":"對 所以我們不想開此先例所以第一應該一早拿出來的他沒有拿出來已經是在騙你第二次了然後現在拿出來的本來在質詢的時候我們就可以針對他這個東西質詢對不對但現在拿出來我沒有質詢要省預算"},{"start":21656.589,"end":21680.716,"text":"不過我們質詢的時候她這個內容好像跟她回答的是一樣一模一樣啊 對對對但是基本是我們在做的決議譴責案裡面的決議第二案裡面寫的怎麼可以如此呢所以 對所以我是非常堅定的要堅守立法院裡面的行政規則當然當然我們也是所以現在"},{"start":21682.176,"end":21695,"text":"高靜雯先生看過以後是希望她重寫嗎?一定是的啊她必須要回去重寫嗎?還是在這裡就可以寫?那既然還是你要打電話給那個神秘人物那一通電話來的神秘人物請你回去的那個人要不你現在也可以在現場打給她啊"},{"start":21704.758,"end":21716.946,"text":"你既然那天讓我們內政委員會的委員在這邊等那麼久 專委在這邊等那麼久而且還不是本委員會的委員也來質詢 那你就在現場等吧大家的時間都很寶貴好"},{"start":21724.219,"end":21753.032,"text":"所以高級委員的意思是讓秘書長在這然後秘書長是不是還是可以修改然後您人在這他們再傳給您看這樣可以嗎?大概這位他要怎麼改就在現場改他如果沒有辦法做決定要等那位神秘電話來的話我們也准許他在旁邊打電話啊看要怎麼改啊改到大家覺得說這件事情他們真的是有一個交代有一個負責了我們當然就省他預算啊"},{"start":21754.056,"end":21765.448,"text":"好吧我的建議是這樣謝謝所以我們終究就是要再看我們行政院提出來的修改後的報告那所以"},{"start":21769.543,"end":21795.85,"text":"那其他官員我們要讓陸委會的就其他列席的呢您看我們現在不就是陸委會跟海紀會嗎對那我的本席指的是其他的是讓他們到樓下還是都可以啊看他們要的但是這個秘書長就在坐在這邊吧好好那我們現在那就請秘書長繼續留在這"},{"start":21799.489,"end":21807.214,"text":"那後面這位呢後面這位他也要留是不是沒有他們要不要宣布他是這一個應該也是可以法委會好好好"},{"start":21814.693,"end":21838.549,"text":"那我們請除了行政院秘書長我們留在我們202那其他行政院的官員 列席官員請到紅樓101那我們現在是不是邀請陸委會跟海基會以及其相關列席官員到我們紅樓202好 那麻煩議事人員通知"},{"start":21850.948,"end":21874.519,"text":"每一次我們還沒有審到我們說我們上次我們審的我們說可能今天沒辦法審到的單位請他回去我們招委是說我們都要留下來因為我們今天排的排要審的各個單位都要留下來所以我們要求他留下來也沒有什麼不對啊我們沒有說不對啊"},{"start":21880.921,"end":21901.145,"text":"對啦 擔家擔啦對啦 擔家擔啦 嘿我真的不知道他怎麼溝通啊就說秘書長不要回去但是在樓下跟幕僚溝通 趕快修改他才可以處理啊不然他在這裡 他沒辦法處理啊因為就是 國務委員覺得呢還是就"},{"start":21905.888,"end":21934.679,"text":"各位他那天可以打電話他坐在這邊依然可以打電話下面的幕僚要怎麼樣跟他溝通要怎麼樣修改文字也可以我覺得這是態度的問題好本席尊重我們所有委員那就請是是所以站在那個立法院立法院我們這個希望"},{"start":21938.136,"end":21952.704,"text":"然後這邊很高尾就是有一個對啊大家都表達了嘛你希望什麼如果你只要我留在這邊我改不出對當作房子101對啊稍微大家都表達了啊你當101好不好對啊"},{"start":21958.849,"end":21981.439,"text":"那本席這樣啦幕僚請到樓下那你們怎麼樣處理好拿紙本的來給我們秘書長給秘書長修改好不好那好不好行政流程 行政流程要簽紙哪一個人要簽紙的東西都要簽紙上去對啊 他們簽完最後拿來這邊給您簽還有什麼行政業有一些單位的簽紙"},{"start":21986.67,"end":22008.177,"text":"那有要回行政院的簽程的你們在行政院處理嗎那就這樣好不好因為你們在樓下是給你們休息沒關係你們儘快處理請行政單位儘快處理但是秘書長請留在這邊好不好好那不要耽誤我們的時間好嗎好謝謝我們請陸委會跟海基會相關備詢單位就位"},{"start":22016.301,"end":22017.202,"text":"阿姨,你還好嗎?"},{"start":22049.176,"end":22050.061,"text":"三分钟"},{"start":22054.426,"end":22060.052,"text":"郭文貴先生,你知不知道郭台銘的意思嗎?"},{"start":22085.466,"end":22094.232,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":22107.472,"end":22113.464,"text":"我們請陸委會海基會的列席單位儘快就座"},{"start":22115,"end":22140.058,"text":"现在继续开会审查114年度中央政府总预算案关于大陆委员会财团法人海峡交流基金会以及台港经济文化合作策进会请宣读预算数及委员提案宣读完毕后再进行协商请宣读"},{"start":22142.336,"end":22164.93,"text":"114年度大陸委員會稅務預算第二款罰款及賠償收入無劣數第十九項大陸委員會無劣數第四款財產收入第二十項大陸委員會五十五萬八千元第一幕財產資息五十五萬六千元第二幕廢舊物資售價兩千元第七款其他收入第二十項大陸委員會三萬一千元"},{"start":22168.346,"end":22190.293,"text":"稅出部分第二款行政院主款第十五項大陸委員會十億三千九百一十八萬六千元第一幕一般行政四億八千五百七十二萬一千元第二幕綜合規劃業務三千零六十六萬五千元第三幕經濟業務兩千五百六千萬九千元第四幕法政業務兩億八千七百五十一萬五千元第五幕"},{"start":22191.013,"end":22206.793,"text":"港澳蒙藏業務一億三千五百五十八萬元第六目聯絡業務三千一百七十一萬四千元第七目一般建築及設備文業術第八目電域備金兩百萬元第九目文教業務四千零三十五萬兩千元"},{"start":22208.766,"end":22226.291,"text":"大陆委员会主管财团法人海峡交流基金会114年度预算1.工作计划部分1.依据收入与支出审查结果随同调整2.总收入总支出及余处部分收入3亿3541万7千元支出3亿5436万6千元本期短处1894万9千元"},{"start":22232.25,"end":22251.906,"text":"大陆委员会主管财团法人台港经济文化合作策进会114年度预算工作计划部分依据收入与支出审查结果随同调整总收入总支出给予处部分收入3505万7000元支出3520万3000元本期短处14万6000元继续宣读提案"},{"start":22253.717,"end":22268.106,"text":"入委會部分第15項為第1至2案共2案內容請委員參閱第一幕一般行政為第3到第8案共計6案第二幕綜合規劃業務為第9至第18案共計10案第三幕經濟業務為第19到第28案共計10案第4幕法政業務為第29至第59案共計31案"},{"start":22280.114,"end":22290.297,"text":"第五幕港澳蒙藏業務為第60到第75案共計16案第六幕聯絡業務為第76至第82案共計7案第九幕文教業務為第83至第94案共計12案主決議部分為第95至第103案共計9案內容請委員參閱"},{"start":22306.885,"end":22319.671,"text":"財團法人海峽交流基金會提案 收入部分一案 共計一案支出部分為第2至第18案 共計17案 內容請委員參閱主決議部分為第19至第22案 共計4案 內容請委員參閱"},{"start":22327.435,"end":22339.009,"text":"台港經濟文化合作策進會預算提案收入部分委員無相關提案支出部分有委員麥玉珍委員議案內容請委員參閱宣讀完畢好現在進行協商"},{"start":22346.189,"end":22358.74,"text":"那我們因為今天下午要審的單位也算多所以我們是不是然後再加上陸委會跟海基會已經有蠻多時間跟委員溝通了所以我們現在會照"},{"start":22361.762,"end":22389.862,"text":"內政委員會給我們的這個預算資料我們就順著下來但是我們希望是能夠有效率那請這個我們審報的部分我們請委員可以提出這個詢問或一些提案的說明那接著行政單位需要行政單位回覆的回覆不然我們就直接就那一幕我們就來做一個決議好"},{"start":22391.623,"end":22416.963,"text":"現在我們說出部分第15項總共有兩案那請問提案委員黃建斌委員張志榮委員有沒有要發言好請黃建斌委員好謝謝主席這個案子本期是題列要減列500萬那雖然說我們的單位來說明不過因為我們現在看到的網路上宣導的大概都是以國安法的方向在"},{"start":22417.924,"end":22442.507,"text":"在在在做那其實沒有對我們兩岸交易區並沒有失去的這個交流增加那另外就是在我們看到那個他的那個平台是國人赴陸港澳動態登陸系統裡面也沒有看到他增加這個登陸的意願嗎那未來如果會你要怎麼樣在預算增加之後你能夠有效讓你們宣傳增加這個是不是可以來說明一下我這部分"},{"start":22443.868,"end":22446.118,"text":"好 請問張志倫委員有沒有要說明請張志倫委員"},{"start":22451.496,"end":22463.66,"text":"好謝謝主席我今天提的是這個第二案有關於這個入委會的媒體宣傳費媒宣費跟業務宣導費編列了1485萬那叫113年的部分增加425萬5000元增幅40%漲幅極大顯不合理那我們認為入委會的媒宣費基本上是要與對岸這個"},{"start":22478.124,"end":22492.446,"text":"為了沒有對這個兩岸的交流跟維持和平有任何注意那陸委會在這一百一三年度對兩岸之間的角色我們認為現在也是不明確所以我跟建兵委員一樣我們提列減列五百萬以上"},{"start":22496.128,"end":22524.048,"text":"請行政單位盡快回覆剛剛黃建斌委員有請你們好 請主委邱主委謝謝主席謝謝兩位委員的垂詢有關於這個剛剛提到的行政支出有關媒體的費用最主要是因應中共對台的統戰宣傳以及對我這個越來越綿密的認知作戰我們需要把很多的政策講清楚我們需要更多的"},{"start":22525.289,"end":22546.183,"text":"這些說明的這些能量來說明我們政府在追求一個和平穩定互利互惠健康有序的兩岸關係同時為了確保國人負入的安全我們不斷的把各種負入的風險提出來那麼剛剛也有提到說我們對於國人這個風險的這個保障不足其實我們這個多層次的那個動態這個有關於登陸系統"},{"start":22555.789,"end":22580.878,"text":"更多的我們有很多的一些宣導希望國人婦入要提高警覺那這部分我們也會來加強重點是我們如何推動一個相互尊重對等尊嚴健康有序的兩岸交流我們會全力來宣導也會依相關的法規依我們現在的政府的政策讓民眾能夠了解"},{"start":22581.678,"end":22594.127,"text":"也希望委員針對我們這一點點的預算提供我們必要的能量做好各種的反統戰還有這個反認知作戰的工作非常感謝兩位委員的指教好 那請兩位委員我們這一個部分最後決議如何"},{"start":22604.491,"end":22624.267,"text":"是三減五百還是一千兩個人是加起來還是合在一起那個主委說明之後其實也不知道說你要不要來減價你要不要來減價效果怎樣你說有很多平台可是那到底是哪一些我們不知道啊而且其實你從113跟140的預算來看是增加的那你告訴我們要"},{"start":22627.864,"end":22639.768,"text":"主委你接下來我問你說你要怎麼讓增加這樣子的出籍率跟那個登記的意願其實你並沒有說到有啦登錄的意願跟委員報告有關登錄的部分"},{"start":22643.169,"end":22659.18,"text":"我們的登錄系統已經是政府各部門登錄系統成績最好的短短的時間我們能夠拉到5%因為國人不習慣去登錄我們為了要加強說明我們也提供了三支專線給國人一些風險的諮詢另外我們也在機場"},{"start":22664.624,"end":22691.351,"text":"提供一些風險的小卡片讓國人 婦戮有更多的風險意識那總之我們對國人的保護是一種多層次的當然我們也會提供這個有關於簡訊給國人了解婦戮的時候當需要的時候它有一個依據哪些專線是可以使用的以確保國人的安全委員這部分有關您詮詢的這兩"},{"start":22693.331,"end":22705.196,"text":"有關於政策宣導的部分我們有一些詳盡的一些計畫我們是不是再跟委員說明一下我們這個經費是很少我們也希望委員能夠支持 非常感謝"},{"start":22706.769,"end":22727.621,"text":"那請張宏祿召委先然後接著高金委員我覺得這個部分我覺得是可以討論的但我們是不是等一下竹木裡面都會討論到這些我們要不要這邊先保留我們去竹木那邊我們如果竹木有刪了這邊我們就可以不用再特別處理不然我會卡在這裡"},{"start":22730.039,"end":22755.838,"text":"請高經委員我也同意那個張召偉的意見但是我必須要先講一下你政策兩岸政策做不好你在做多少的事情也都沒有用然後第二件事情縱使是現在兩岸之間的關係好像惡意的螺旋上去你們解決問題的能力好像還是不足所以我是建議這樣子就是說你們在這個"},{"start":22758.28,"end":22786.858,"text":"一案跟第二案裡面是 原列是1485萬那我有給建斌委員提案 那個那個連署那志倫也是500如果大家同意的話 兩個加起來就是減列500嘛好那是不是我們兩位提案的委員張志倫委員跟黃建斌委員是不是就500OK齁 好那我們就減列500"},{"start":22789.24,"end":22805.544,"text":"包委員真的是太多了啦我們從來沒有被減那麼多的啦這樣對於我們政策說明的能量就像兩岸關係越來越差只有更差沒有最差所以這就是表示你們失職了好不好請問一下陸委會你們113年的預算跟114年的預算差多少"},{"start":22813.822,"end":22842.098,"text":"报告委员我把那个差的部分跟您报告麻烦您增加多少我们在114年增加多少我们总共是增加了一亿一千万那其中补助我们海基会是七千五百万你已经增加了嘛两岸的关系现在这么差都比以前113年还差我们那么多出事的业务费用就增加一千两百万好了好了你就不用再回答了你已经回答我的问题了谢谢"},{"start":22846.22,"end":22857.944,"text":"為了符合我們那個卓院長所說的民間疾苦不要浪費公帑所以我的建議我的建議就是減六五百吧謝謝"},{"start":22860.185,"end":22883.961,"text":"委員這樣真的太多了謝謝委員指教邱主委不要再說了其實陸委會本席在質詢的時候也有也曾經說過不如裁撤所以你們現在這麼多的行政費用我們都還很多都保留所以剛剛高金委員竟然這樣講那我們是不是就尊重提案委員我們這個第15項我們就減列500萬"},{"start":22890.387,"end":22895.216,"text":"但是因為他們堅持嘛所以我們就尊重好不好我們尊重每個委員的提案啦"},{"start":22899.643,"end":22917.553,"text":"你們的提案,我指的是你們的提案我們一定尊重,好不好你們的提案我們不會忽略,好不好好,主席,請說主席,你說做不好,你來說要怎麼做怎麼,跟你說他做不好,自己不愛錢給他做,跟你不是說你不好"},{"start":22923.818,"end":22944.116,"text":"最主要讓大家知道 因為我們都尊重體育的人 不錯 只是說可以讓他跟體育的人稍微溝通一下 我也能夠做得好你看現在管理人員不好 如果不做 都不好不是說讓他自己醫療可以做得好"},{"start":22946.298,"end":22962.652,"text":"所以呢這個我們就是錢給下去越做越不好一直給也不是辦法啦請蘇巧慧委員好主席那我同意你剛剛說了人和人之間是互相的啦信任也是看累積還是消磨的"},{"start":22963.172,"end":22984.914,"text":"所以剛剛其實一度大家各個委員在表示自己提案意見的時候也都是據理說明然後我們也請行政單位像陸委會這樣來回答了那剛剛其實有一度有聽到張昭偉有提案說我們是不是因為這個會牽涉到後面的有許多其他相關的案件我們是不是這一案先保留等一下後面"},{"start":22985.455,"end":23003.057,"text":"一併討論完以後 相關的有處理以後我們再回頭來看這一案那高金委員剛剛在提說話的第一句也是說我也認同張昭偉我們覺得事情有一線曙光了對不對那我們也覺得說這樣應該是尊重最多委員的意見"},{"start":23003.758,"end":23029.089,"text":"所以主席您的英明之處就在於有沒有把握這一線曙光的時候所以我是懇請主席能夠再次的考量所以大家互相之間但一定就是因為我們現在立場不一致所以我們才需要討論嘛不然的話剛剛有說你113年114年預算差多少請主委報告一下那如果主委現在報告完只報告數字你說已經增加1億多了"},{"start":23029.809,"end":23031.651,"text":"那我也想要請主委說明一下啊"},{"start":23059.309,"end":23059.57,"text":"那留個紀錄"},{"start":23060.805,"end":23089.785,"text":"是 跟委員報告有關於等一下 我還沒請你講我本身要先回應那個蘇委員剛剛你只聽到高金委員第一句他後面的結論是三千五百萬 簡略五百萬嘛我知道啊 所以我說主席英明的地方就在把握那一絲曙光啊我沒有說你不能 我是說你有把握我尊重提案的委員那沒關係 你要說明 來 儘快說明好不好是 謝謝主席等一下 等一下 好"},{"start":23090.425,"end":23112.201,"text":"我們先讓委員表達完 你再一併說明那請吳清明委員好 主席剛才你說那個有爭議的是不是先保留然後你說那個簡略的方向因為陸委會的經費也不是很多那我們要求他做得更好那你經費又不給他 那也沒辦法去推動"},{"start":23113.221,"end":23139.102,"text":"是不是我們有爭議的先保留我們等一下回頭再來討論那這樣我們速度應該會比較快好不好謝謝好請李博弈議員我相信這個等一下這筆預算在等一下的第一幕第二幕裡面還是會提到相關的問題那我在去年度其實也詢問過陸委會還有海基會相關的問題也就是說"},{"start":23140.323,"end":23161.298,"text":"這一個要去 國人要赴港澳大陸旅遊的這個APP它要怎麼登錄 登錄的意義目的是什麼如果你當 如果你這個行程結束還沒有回來那你相關的家人可以透過什麼樣的管道機制去處理這需要宣傳啦 這需要宣傳啦 所以"},{"start":23162.199,"end":23191.318,"text":"如果這個沒有這一筆費用或者是少列這一些費用的話那未來也就是今年度國人赴港澳大陸相關的這一些機制到底要透過什麼方式讓國人可以理解去那裡怎麼樣才是政府可以維持你的安全或者是你如果失聯了像一貫道的道青如果失聯了後面要怎麼處理這一些還是要需要有一些宣傳的費用來讓國人可以清楚的知道"},{"start":23193.138,"end":23208.947,"text":"好 請行政單位盡量講重點謝謝 請收主委去年以來中國大陸對於我們複合性的施壓也就是軍事威脅 外交打壓 經濟脅迫 社會滲透還有法律戰 一連串的認知作戰跟灰色地帶侵擾"},{"start":23209.907,"end":23230.603,"text":"那這些複合性的施壓都我們要一起應處也要跟國人說明我們需要安定民心維護兩岸交流次序我們努力的營造一個和平穩定繁榮的兩岸關係始終是我們政策就需要我們努力的對外說明所以我們也請委員給我們機會有說明的能量非常感謝"},{"start":23232.378,"end":23249.144,"text":"你們覺得你們在穩定民心還有維持兩岸但很多民眾還有很多委員也覺得其實你們是讓兩岸關係越來越嚴重好來接著剛剛我不好意思剛剛我看到黃婕委員有先接著再請張昭偉"},{"start":23253.95,"end":23272.239,"text":"好謝謝張偉那我是想要請教一下你們這個行政支出媒體政策跟業務宣導費因為大概是快1500萬嘛可是剛剛的如果照提案的委員是直接簡列三分之一其實真的蠻多的你們是不是可以說明一下這1500萬裡面大概包含哪些業務"},{"start":23273.459,"end":23296.998,"text":"那如果直接剪裂三分之一因為其實他們剛剛提到的理由是說是這個APP的做不好然後裡面的登錄率太低那這個業務裡面是只有包含這個登錄率嗎那如果還有其他相關的業務大概是怎麼樣龐雜的一個業務要讓大家知道如果直接剪裂三分之一是不是會影響到你們其他的業務的施行"},{"start":23297.458,"end":23317.09,"text":"那我的立場也是覺得既然覺得你們做不好就應該要保留這個經費讓你們可以去做得更好那所以我也是希望等一下這一筆可以先保留然後大家再多做討論如何讓你們做得更好我相信這才是所有大家的委員的用意啦以上謝謝委員你剛好像說明完了啦"},{"start":23324.697,"end":23349.494,"text":"那請張昭偉要先來講嗎好 請張昭偉先發言我覺得啦齁這個大家都有道理 大家說的都那個我覺得我們不要卡在這裡啦我覺得齁 就三百萬啦齁 我覺得就這樣處理啦好 那請問原提案委員 本席一定尊重原提案兩位委員"},{"start":23351.09,"end":23373.817,"text":"謝謝主席我想大家對這個議題都非常的關心那我們其實最希望就是說我們兩個還是要建立一個穩定而且和平的溝通方式那主委也非常的他也承諾說會盡力來做這一塊那這部分我覺得我們倒是可以像張宏祿 張偉講的一樣我們可以來做3減到300這部分"},{"start":23375.708,"end":23393.418,"text":"好 那張志文委員OK嗎好 那我們第15項我們就剪第一案第二案合併對對好那我們第15項就第一案第二案合併 剪裂300萬元接著我們進入第一幕那請"},{"start":23396.833,"end":23411.216,"text":"接著我們請邱主委先就黃婕委員的問題回答謝謝我們陸委會有很多的自己的媒體平台包括YouTube, FB, Line, IG以及Trade"},{"start":23411.776,"end":23437.263,"text":"這都是由同仁自行經營沒有委外但是我們就利用這些經費把我們的工作做好那另外很多的新聞平台社群平台也是我們要經營的那這些部分呢雖然我們經費很少但是我們都是用同仁自發性的努力把各種的內容加以充實未來我們就會用極少的預算把這個工作做好謝謝委員"},{"start":23439.386,"end":23464.394,"text":"那接著我們進入第一幕那第一幕的提案委員有需要發言的請發言有沒有好 請徐宇貞委員 然後黃建斌委員謝謝主席 本席在第一幕所提的是第八案是針對一般行政的基本行政工作維持業務費向下的一般事務費那根據這個預算是113年度是編列"},{"start":23471.636,"end":23486.92,"text":"2697萬5000那今年度增幅高達20%來到3252萬7000元因為事實上這已經遠遠超過我們社會普遍可以接受的通膨的警戒線那尤其是有陸委會的解釋是說這筆"},{"start":23488.84,"end":23516.778,"text":"预算大幅的增加是因为中央联合办公大楼的摊提的费用的提高那因为卓院长之前才信誓旦旦的说我们的消费指数稳定维持在2%左右但在这么短的时间内针对这个部分我们的行政院联合办公大楼的维护经费竟然高达20%是不是合理那是不是对得起我们纳税人的辛苦付出所以本席在这边提案针对这个"},{"start":23517.919,"end":23531.032,"text":"這個向下的三千兩百五十二萬七千建議減列五千元我想這是對我們納稅人的一個五百萬元五百萬元我想這是對納稅人負責的一個態度謝謝"},{"start":23534.281,"end":23556.254,"text":"好 謝謝 請黃建斌委員這本席提的是第六案第六案就是在我們這個辦公廳設的這個年度維護整修這部分那本席這邊是提要減滅五萬塊那經過我們陸委會來說明其實他陸委會還是沒有把你大概你要做的細項講得很清楚所以這部分本席還是維持原本的提議減滅五萬塊錢"},{"start":23560.459,"end":23587.809,"text":"那请问第三案第四案张志伦委员跟张红露委员有没有要发言没有没有好那我们第一幕对第五案第七案改组决议那我们是不是第一幕一般行政我们就按照提案委员的部分我们让他通过大家有没有意见"},{"start":23589.824,"end":23614.173,"text":"好請要請他們說明一下吧好那請主委說我想這一幕還蠻重要的第一個我們是國安單位第二個我們所處的是國家基礎關鍵基礎設施所以我們配合整個大樓營運的配合款還有分擔費用就增加費用在這裡了所以這是第一項"},{"start":23614.733,"end":23638.746,"text":"第二項我們隨著電費還有基本工資的上漲也會增加這些預算所以我們增加預算真的是是整體的需要配合也請委員能夠明瞭 謝謝剛剛委員有問你的聯合辦公大樓增加了20%你剛剛有講他確實有要增加增加多少沒有詳細講"},{"start":23641.94,"end":23662.949,"text":"跟委員報告,我這裡看到的是555萬就是配合我們大樓營運增加的部分包括三台空調箱、態換、消防緊急廣播系統的更新這個是純粹你們陸委會的設施?沒有,整體大樓然後你們要攤付550萬?對對對,所以還請委員能夠支持"},{"start":23669.491,"end":23692.814,"text":"好 那請剛剛我印象是那就請張志倫委員好 謝謝主席我本來是沒有想要發言的可是我認為就是說陸委會給這個主委的資料不能跟給委員的資料不一致我這邊拿到的資料就是因應這個114年更新老舊空調箱跟下放緊急廣播系統的設備"},{"start":23694.495,"end":23719.729,"text":"為了配合此更新案預估需支付450萬可是剛剛主委陸委會主委一開口就變成550幾萬所以我希望的是說不能隨便亂回答每一塊錢的納稅錢都是值得要審慎來考量不能說給委員的資料是450萬然後剛剛突然報就550幾萬增加了100萬我要想請教主委是怎麼回事謝謝"},{"start":23721.61,"end":23734.681,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛您說那兩家確實450我們其他基本的維運費包括電費的增加北棟管理小組人員的調漲還有相應的勞健保及稅額的經費是編了105萬"},{"start":23738.995,"end":23745.098,"text":"主要我覺得主要是因為現在現在卓議員長有提到說我們雖然物價指數很穩定的維持在2%可是光你們的部分攤提就攤提了555萬2000元"},{"start":23767.071,"end":23787.761,"text":"整棟大樓其他的單位要攤提多少為什麼會有這麼高的一個費用跟委員報告因為我們在北棟它從一樓到十八樓我們的面積是從十五樓到十八樓所以我們分攤相關的是你們有四層樓十五 十六 十七 十八謝謝"},{"start":23791.939,"end":23805.361,"text":"這個單位真的好像沒有做什麼事但人數還不少面積也滿多的好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好 請好"},{"start":23820.836,"end":23832.499,"text":"那我們尊重提案委員好不好那提案委員如果沒有要檢列我們就605萬沒有要調整的有要調整的我們這個可以尊重"},{"start":23866.172,"end":23867.675,"text":"現在才是610萬"},{"start":23903.35,"end":23911.233,"text":"那以這第八案那本席同意減列三百好 第八案減列三百"},{"start":23914.676,"end":23932.384,"text":"整目檢列300 整目是大家 大家都整合了是不是好 OK 那我們第一目病案除了第五跟第七改組決議之外那其他是病案總共檢列300萬元"},{"start":23934.545,"end":23958.415,"text":"好那我們第一幕OK了接著進入第二幕報告委員我們同仁可能沒辦法負擔這個300我們的配合款就不夠因為我們這棟大樓因為時間也很久所以有在這次的維護費用比較高那我是不是跟委員跟我們同仁討論一下否則我們就沒有配合"},{"start":23959.756,"end":23988.898,"text":"主委我相信你們只要這個想要做都可以主委因為我們是整目整目檢列所以說你就可以去你們要去想辦法好啦主委你是你是主委嗎你去想辦法主委你們總共是四億八千五百七十二萬一千才檢列你三百我們王每位委員都說自己去調整整目如果你這樣的話本席想要"},{"start":23989.618,"end":24012.942,"text":"追加了啦主委你不要生氣我沒有生氣主委是整幕讓你整你整幕有適應的主委講的話真的讓我們覺得真的是太誇張主席我是覺得整幕就減列300但可以我們宣告讓他們自行調整"},{"start":24013.802,"end":24037.395,"text":"這樣他們好處理剛剛就已經這樣講了整幕的意思不就是這樣嗎就是可以自行調整啊對好不好我們第一幕完成接著我們最後還會再宣告那現在大家沒有疑慮我們就繼續往第二幕那請第二幕的提案委員有需要發言的請麥玉珍委員"},{"start":24042.319,"end":24059.332,"text":"第二幕謝謝主席我在第二幕第15第15這邊是國內外旅遊上次他們有來溝通這溝通說他們這個出國的是"},{"start":24063.155,"end":24076.279,"text":"成果列為機密啊所以他們拿機密來給我看的時候不是國安的機密也不是兩岸關係談的機密他們的機密是要去參訪的就是他們跟團啊或者他們秘密跟團啊或者他們去"},{"start":24084.782,"end":24107.079,"text":"去參訪一些餐廳啊什麼的這個機密所以我這個部分我就沒辦法接受所以我就是全檢列啦所以等一下看我們主委說還有哪一個叫做機密的就是跟我們兩岸關係的機密有關才是叫機密所以我覺得不相關的不叫機密以上 謝謝"},{"start":24108.08,"end":24109.201,"text":"還有第18個第18案就是也是在18案這邊就是對我是這個改組結議就是第二幕的這兩案謝謝"},{"start":24126.601,"end":24155.797,"text":"那請徐議貞委員謝謝主席本席在第二幕提出的是第16案也是剛剛麥議貞委員講的這個國外旅費的部分那因為根據陸委會的說法是這個經費是要派員赴國外考察跟參加國際研討會那預計派12人出訪10天地點涵蓋歐美跟亞洲不過我們必須回到根本來去檢視就是說其實陸委會主要的核心的"},{"start":24157.518,"end":24173.469,"text":"這個職務應該是處理兩岸就處理大陸的事務所以說去歐美這邊參加研討會或國外考察到底對於處理兩岸事務解決目前這個二一螺旋的僵局有什麼幫助所以本案本席提出簡列100萬謝謝"},{"start":24178.08,"end":24204.33,"text":"好 那接著請黃建民委員然後張志倫委員謝謝主席主席在這一幕裡面本席有提兩案一個是第11案 一個是第14案那11案部分本席是減列250萬那不過跟我們陸委會溝通之後跟我們陸委會提出我們其中兩項的會議參與人員的人數然後邀請的這個與會人員人員的不同說明之後這部分可以改成主決議"},{"start":24205.35,"end":24231.919,"text":"那另外在第14案部分原先是題列要減列300萬那也經過了跟5月的溝通那5月提出113年度我們各自這個研究的這個報告民意的調查那我們認為這個也是需要有需要這些經費所以這邊我們也改成主決議那以上這兩個提案謝謝那請張志榮委員好謝謝主席我們今天現在討論的是這個"},{"start":24234.156,"end":24243.664,"text":"第二幕我有提出第九案就有關於陸委會的綜合規劃業務編列了3666萬就要113年的預算增加363萬左右整個綜合規劃業務主要是做研議兩岸政策因應建議而且推動兩岸思維護台海和平跟台灣"},{"start":24260.518,"end":24281.457,"text":"整體利益以及辦理兩岸議題研究及探討民意調查等等可是大家都知道現在陸委會編列兩岸情勢研議並沒有提出具體建議似乎沒有任何的成效跟進展而且兩岸關係現在是僵化交流停滯所以還需不需要增加這360幾萬所以我們認為說應該"},{"start":24286.294,"end":24303.482,"text":"要真正提出來兩岸真的如何未來規劃的這個具體的措施那所以我們還有就是說這個目前還有這個預算裡面有提說有些軟硬體資訊設備的汰換編列了120幾萬那與資訊式的規劃設備我們認為有重複為了蹲劫支出所以我們把這個新增的這個300多萬360萬我們減列300萬以上"},{"start":24315.404,"end":24329.669,"text":"好還有沒有沒有那本席在第二幕也有兩案第13案跟17案13案是委託民調單位辦理兩案議題民意調查等經費編列200萬元那本席發現陸委會即便有"},{"start":24337.652,"end":24355.531,"text":"編列這個民意調查的經費但是我不知道那個民調結果怎麼樣但是感覺陸委會的很多作為跟60%以上的民意好像有一點相左所以本席本來簡列30萬那今天我想說簡列100萬"},{"start":24358.001,"end":24384.806,"text":"然後再來第17案第17案也是國外差旅費那本席覺得很納悶陸委會從109年開始公務出國報告列為密等而且沒有解密的期限那為什麼以前的不用那你們現在要然後兩岸關係又越來越緊張本席要特別講的是"},{"start":24386.026,"end":24412.644,"text":"不是說錢給你多然後就認為你可以事情做得好其實很多時候不是有錢的人他才能夠把事情做好甚至選舉也是不是錢花的多就一定拿比較高票所以很多事情不是錢多就做得好而是看你長期以來你的作為所以針對這個第17案本席看到這個計劃說明和113年度相同"},{"start":24415.046,"end":24443.013,"text":"而且内容过于简略出国地点仅列欧美及亚太地区范围过广出国具体效益不明未说明其增加预算之必要性避免预算腐烂编列那我们简略预算100万元好那请问还有没有委员有要说明的或是提问的没有那我们请行政单位回复"},{"start":24443.985,"end":24460.48,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員感謝就這一幕裡頭都是我們中規處的業務我們中規處最主要的業務就是研判兩岸還有整體的形式那提供這些具體的建議跟應處的作為給我們各相關部門"},{"start":24461.881,"end":24482.281,"text":"可以說是入委會的整個大腦至關重要同時也跟委員報告我們入委會一年有接待外國的訪團、智庫團、各界人士從國外來有將近140團他們往往會需要入委會去參加國際會議或是邀訪我們去參訪"},{"start":24485.965,"end":24503.831,"text":"那我想國際社會都非常關注台海情勢那我們跟理念相近國家跟民主同盟的國家呢一起來維護台海的和平穩定至關重要這往往都需要我們去說明"},{"start":24504.791,"end":24528.773,"text":"也請委員能夠重視這方面那另外我們的民調許多都是長期性的我們從90年代的民調就沒有斷過所以我們也希望委員能夠給我們這些長期在做的民調這個國內外相關的各界都非常關注陸委會的民調也希望能夠支持剛剛有提到說陸委會的這個相關的這個"},{"start":24531.255,"end":24547.461,"text":"出國報告其實我們同仁出國都寫得非常充足那會列為逆見的原因是因為有我人士希望不要曝光那如果各位委員基於問政的需要我們也會在"},{"start":24548.802,"end":24568.114,"text":"這個保密的規範下我們主動希望跟委員說明我們都願意來跟滿足大家問政資的需要那總之我們中規處的相關的預算剛剛這個我們主席也提到我們的相關設備比如說我們為了讓我們國內的學子"},{"start":24571.876,"end":24595.53,"text":"加強他們對中國大陸跟兩岸關係的研究我們在18樓的資源中心也重新的強化這方面的設備能夠加惠我們的學子所以我們也預期在中規處這些預算真的很少然後又要刪的話我想對於我們對我們國家是非常很大的損失以上"},{"start":24596.766,"end":24611.335,"text":"好 這個主委你剛剛說要和平穩定我發現每年每年經費給你你就是越來越不和平越來越不穩定所以這一個問題我們真的很難接受說你"},{"start":24612.616,"end":24632.838,"text":"等於經費支持你經費支持你但是做出來的都不是大家的期望那再來就是民調既然是長期也可能沒有其必要因為你長期做了你只有讓這個情況越來越糟所以那接下來那個高金委員"},{"start":24635.101,"end":24656.522,"text":"主委我發現你這裡不講話還好你一講話會引起大家非常多的我非常認真的聆聽啊陸委會的工作是什麼是兩岸關係嘛對不對那你剛剛所講的東西好像就是剛剛昭偉也講了兩岸和平然後不要再讓這個惡意的螺旋繼續往下這是你最主要的工作啊對吧"},{"start":24657.202,"end":24679.541,"text":"那所以這樣子看起來 你的綜合規劃業務編的是3066萬5000塊那這樣看到其他簡列的委員們 當然在各個不同的項目裡面都有不同的有是這個外交的 有些是國外旅費的那我可以加起來的話 大概是刪了你1100萬左右啦"},{"start":24681.563,"end":24687.285,"text":"那我們是不是要為了節省時間大家討論一下在他這一幕裡面大家要算多少好不好謝謝"},{"start":24707.492,"end":24708.813,"text":"國際社會是外交啊"},{"start":24735.572,"end":24755.491,"text":"那你先除外交部 那除外交部編列一次再給你除外交部編列要見面嗎對 那個除外交部那你自己也要去講話你自己要講話 你自己要來接受吧那你自己也要去講話 你自己要來接受吧那你自己也要去講話 你自己要來接受吧那你自己也要去講話 你自己要來接受吧那你自己也要去講話 你自己要來接受吧那你自己也要去講話 你自己要來接受吧"},{"start":24757.701,"end":24759.302,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳"},{"start":24775.775,"end":24786.078,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳主要是為了提供餐廳的餐廳服務"},{"start":24795.18,"end":24821.408,"text":"因為現在整個政府的局面還是不交流,是平反交流嘛但我沒有說到以前這樣變成這樣但是你現在如果個人照顧他,說真的,你都是不是因為我們這邊是有黑衣服嘛,所以不完整對,我沒有在指定他,因為如果有問題是一定要偵查你,反正你把他推到我們國安部的話,那會怎麼樣?國安部不是什麼問題,問題在於你怎麼跟他互打架,有點不穩"},{"start":24822.268,"end":24824.19,"text":"對 然後我們對 國安國安國安國安國安"},{"start":24852.82,"end":24857.527,"text":"我吃三餐的喔 剛好大家很高興都不用走"},{"start":24874.166,"end":24878.468,"text":"她說山啦 她說山都沒有錢 我就走了"},{"start":24900.973,"end":24905.014,"text":"好啦好啦 國際都支持你們 台灣自己的人都不要做"},{"start":24911.035,"end":24936.585,"text":"很生氣的 八塊錢我沒人吃 我沒人來外面吃一支我先來 我先來 我先來我們溝通就講溝通就講我知道 我知道對我好看你看喔 福建跟廣東一年幾年啊陸委會 永遠的等於一年幾年而已啊我們是要怎麼打招呼啊是要怎麼打招呼啊是要怎麼打招呼啊是要怎麼打招呼啊"},{"start":24949.802,"end":24961.911,"text":"來來 除了改組決議的本席兩岸各100然後麥毓貞委員285堅持他有減 他有少掉8000元所以簡列285然後"},{"start":24967.315,"end":24984.128,"text":"好啦那再來就是張志倫委員300張志倫委員300那所以就是再來是徐以貞委員100那等於就是照這樣好不好對好"},{"start":24995.871,"end":25007.575,"text":"那我們第二幕我們請總共八八五沒錯我剛剛算是八八五好可以解釋來請說"},{"start":25009.984,"end":25034.24,"text":"不好意思我是主席主任因為剛剛委員講的那些檢列項目其中有一項第14項第15項第16項都是對我們的國外旅費那這個預算總共才編列285千元可是按照委員加起來我要剪掉485根本沒辦法有經費去檢列那包含14 15 16 17這些加起來就一共是785萬8千元我們預算剛剛還沒宣告我們是整目"},{"start":25038.002,"end":25049.552,"text":"並按總共檢列885我的意思是說您885裡面有785都在國外旅費這個我預算才編列285的項目啦不好意思以上說明連行政人員都很多聲音都說自行調整啊這一幕好不好885你們自行調整好嗎"},{"start":25066.873,"end":25092.874,"text":"跟委員報告我從你剛剛不是溝通了嗎我剛剛是問過每位委員的我們中規處從來沒有被刪過那麼多件事你一直要跟我說從來沒有台灣我也一直講兩岸的關係也從來沒有像這樣那然後呢所以從來沒有所以我們所有我們立法院你們從來沒有怎麼樣我們立法院就不能怎麼樣嗎你的意思是這樣嗎"},{"start":25098.819,"end":25123.837,"text":"他意思沒有這樣啦那現在主委你還要發言什麼 給你說完我們當然會遵截預算各位認為我們腐爛的我們一定會改進不過這些必要的費用也請委員能夠考慮我們兩岸的處境這些情勢的研議非常重要跟溝通交流也很重要那當然我們尊重委員的決議 謝謝"},{"start":25125.598,"end":25141.303,"text":"好那我們就第二幕我們就併案885好不好因為剛剛已經溝通一段時間而且最後我也一一詢問各位委員了那我們就整幕併案885萬元好就這樣接著我們請第三幕我們進入第三幕"},{"start":25153.404,"end":25163.886,"text":"我們現在進入第三幕請第三幕有這個提案的委員請表達我跟你講那個召委第二幕如果是要刪這麼多的話還是我們把它保留一下金額都這樣要保留一下"},{"start":25184.534,"end":25187.696,"text":"有要保留嗎沒有啊我們希望就這樣過吧那還是我們要詢問大家意見那要表決嗎要表決嗎所以我在問大家意見嘛這邊要保留那請問這一排的我們這個"},{"start":25214.248,"end":25229.49,"text":"對啊 主委都說尊重意見了好 所以這邊還是決議要通過嘛好 那現在這樣啦他們是說就照我們這樣通過嘛那你們說要保留 那難道要需要那個嗎"},{"start":25232.619,"end":25248.752,"text":"報告委員刪除八百多萬真的是不可承受之重那還是要跟委員報告這些都是必要的支出那麼對兩岸關係都是刪除真的無法運作還請委員能夠"},{"start":25263.124,"end":25285.493,"text":"主席 各位委員我是中俄規劃處的處長魯仲尼我想再跟委員這邊再請命一下我們中規處是負責的主要又是情勢的研判包括大陸內部的情勢的變化這些我們對於大陸的情勢變化的感知對於我們的政府做一個政策判斷是非常的重要的或許我們平常努力委員看不到"},{"start":25285.953,"end":25293.518,"text":"但是呢如果我們沒有辦法給高層好的政策的建議跟情勢的研判的話我想他的後果會是嚴重的那我們除了我們每年生產超過400篇的報告除了提供高層參考之外我們也給所有的外管的外交部的同仁來做參考那我們這些報告的產出呢都是我們同仁一字一字寫出來的但是我們同時也參考了國內外的智庫跟學者他們的意見"},{"start":25313.231,"end":25336.862,"text":"那這些收集各界的意見跟交流需要經費來支持我們包括到國外去像我們每年會在華府舉辦一場研討會像我們今年也對美國的中華智庫也做了參訪收集的這些資料都會作為我們的情勢研判跟政策建議的一個素材所以這部分我真的是非常建議委員給我們這樣的一個支持讓我們繼續把這個工作來做好以上報告"},{"start":25341.404,"end":25363.429,"text":"處長您剛提到說這400多篇報告是給高層做一個研判的一個依據嗎還有所有的外交部的外管跟那現在你們提供的資料讓高層研判到現在兩岸的關係這麼緊張兩岸的關係這麼的不好而且這個敵意螺旋越來越高那所以你這樣的報告研究有什麼重要性有什麼必要性嗎"},{"start":25363.909,"end":25383.264,"text":"我們呈現的是一個客觀事實的變化這些資料是需要被高層了解的但是如果我們沒有經費我們沒有辦法去收集各界的資訊凡事有因果對不對你呈現的是果嘛那那個因你們一直沒有去做調整嗎"},{"start":25384.265,"end":25401.839,"text":"兩岸關係就像人際關係剛剛蘇巧惠委員說的我也很認同兩岸關係就像人際關係大家互相尊重還有人際關係我想各位都比我厲害你就應該知道怎麼樣讓兩岸你如果真心想要和平而不是"},{"start":25403.24,"end":25423.928,"text":"不斷的在這個讓兩岸的惡意螺旋上升然後還變成好像這個一些政治上的一些操作所以我們大家都希望兩岸和平可是我們看到多年下來沒有越來越和平啊也沒有越來交流越來越多啊"},{"start":25424.668,"end":25444.746,"text":"那陸委會剛剛本席對剛剛那一位魯處長對處長講我們現在接下來所有行政單位麻煩在說明的時候你告訴我們你做了什麼事沒有錯但是我們大家要看的是是結果"},{"start":25445.492,"end":25473.562,"text":"你的结果不是大家期望的而且越来越恶化就像这个医院一直砸钱结果病人越来越恶化你知道从普通病房到家务病房两岸关系就是这样都要进入安民病房了你怎么办所以我们所有委员其实我想民进党的几位委员也知道我们从内政委员会我们审预算到现在"},{"start":25475.058,"end":25502.426,"text":"難得就是對我們陸委會大家就是覺得兩岸的關係不可以一直持續這樣所以陸委會的作為也需要改變那當然這個預算一直支持支持下去你們就做更多更多讓兩岸更緊繃的事我們實在看不下去包圍沒有更緊繃啦"},{"start":25508.349,"end":25520.939,"text":"主席我會不會說一下我覺得啦 主委三這麼多 恐怕你們你們到底三多少你們可以承受的範圍你也要讓我們委員知道委員對那個出國的這個檢列285萬這方面似乎有比較"},{"start":25533.965,"end":25556.121,"text":"多的這個主張那如果說相對於其他非常核心的業務我們希望委員還是持續能夠支持我們做好兩岸關係的情勢延續那如果可以這樣的話我們有關於這些檢列國外旅費的部分我們尊重委員"},{"start":25560.8,"end":25574.923,"text":"減大概285萬8千不是啦這樣子啦因為我們剛剛已經花時間而且我也問過這個提案委員不然我們這樣885萬齁准許你整個在第15項裡面你10億裡面你整個去調整好不好"},{"start":25583.659,"end":25595.699,"text":"對啊 不是啊沒有 現在是這個綜合規劃業務三千多萬裡面啦主席 妳不能這樣 她一直喊我主席 她一直喊我主席 她一直喊我主席 她一直喊我主席 她一直喊我主席 她一直喊我主席 她一直喊我主席 她一直喊我主席 她一直喊我主席 她一直喊我主席 她一直喊我主席 她一直喊我主席 她一直喊我主席 她一直喊我"},{"start":25597.32,"end":25623.736,"text":"主席剛剛我說兩岸關係就要人際關係嘛那我們現在在議場上面我們現在在討論嘛那大家也互相釋出善意那主席剛剛我是說如果您可以把握那一瞬間也許我們就可以和緩嘛這就是希望的契機不過至今我們剛剛所有表達的意見我們這一排這個桌子表達的意見似乎到現在為止已經開會一個小時了好像都還沒有被採納的部分那我是不是可以"},{"start":25624.276,"end":25637.46,"text":"覺得說建議一下主席那現在剛剛有這樣子的一個爭端的885裡面剛剛有看到至少有一個是285的旅費有重複計算了一次嘛雖然您說這個就是把數字加上去用整目來調弄那我們是不是就利用這個契機至少把這個285先抽出來那是不是也是一個大家緩和一點可以再進一步討論"},{"start":25647.222,"end":25654.328,"text":"人際關係嘛總是要可以柳暗花明又一春嘛主席不是老是信奉這樣子的一個好的循環嘛主席我們建議一下啦885裡面從這個285重複計算的部分我們先討論一下要不要把它剔除掉好不好"},{"start":25663.604,"end":25679.084,"text":"市委員說的我也認同但是我更認同的是我尊重每一位提案提案不是不是我現在是針對提案不不不我剛剛講提案委員有您的提案的我一定尊重好不好"},{"start":25679.865,"end":25700.937,"text":"其實提案委員會接受委員會大家一起討論嘛對不對我們是內政委員會啊剛剛有討論其實這是經過討論討論之後還是最後的決議那很多委員也表達意見了嘛好啦那這樣好了啦這樣子好了不然我們針對這一個部分我們就表決一下好不好"},{"start":25702.23,"end":25727.857,"text":"要不要就这样了因为既然这样因为我刚刚已经讨论了那可是讨论了大家也也对对对意见不同那我们就这一个部分我们是不是我们是不是可以就就把它处理好不好然后如果你要保留那我们就先表决一下要保留还是要处理然后接着再看处理的结果这样好不好"},{"start":25731.666,"end":25738.473,"text":"主席主席我覺得你休息兩分鐘啊大家說一下休息兩分鐘"},{"start":25739.873,"end":25766.363,"text":"那其他委員 來 請高新委員我當然希望大家和諧了你看現在我們大概只有三幕四幕那所以其實也沒有那麼多幕所以我的建議是你們比去年多了三百六十九三百多萬那你三百多萬在現在兩岸的關係一直在持續往下"},{"start":25767.563,"end":25790.72,"text":"往下惡意的循環當中當然兩岸關係如果好給你們增加多少預算我們都樂觀啟程你想一個入客要不要來台灣其實呢就已經影響了我們基層老百姓所以你們的工作其實是應該要替基層老百姓跟你們的上層說政策然後苦民所苦"},{"start":25791.44,"end":25810.163,"text":"光是一個旅遊業就影響到夜市就影響到問獎就影響到飯店業就影響到非常多的小吃業這影響之大我們在質詢的時候都已經質詢了非常多的數據我現在就不要再一一的論述了"},{"start":25810.623,"end":25838.713,"text":"所以你們已經比去年還增加了預算可是我們看兩岸關係是一直惡意在繼續往下沉這很顯然你們並沒有真正做到陸委會應該要做的功能縱使最後的決策權不是在你但是你們也應該要把基層老百姓的苦讓最上層的了解你怎麼會跟著跟著政府這樣一起來做這種有時候在媒體上聽你講話我們都嚇死了你知道嗎都聽你"},{"start":25839.973,"end":25867.862,"text":"捏了一把冷汗如果一直在不斷的在惡意的講來講去然後都不示出善意感染之地出去總是要嘛對不對為了我們2300萬的人民感染之地出去會怎麼樣呢那兩岸的和平是最重要啊老百姓的是最重要啊所以我認為在這邊也許你認為800萬是很多但是我要"},{"start":25868.462,"end":25882.131,"text":"提議建議大家他已經比去年增加了300多萬了所以大家考慮一下我們到底要怎麼樣的檢列如果大家還要再繼續在這邊一直拖時間的話我想大家就可能現在已經是3點41分了我們還有還機會"},{"start":25886.072,"end":25903.841,"text":"預算要審還有行政院的預算要審好不好是不是大家就不要在這邊這個主委就不要講太多話了其實該講的話在質詢的都已經講完了主席我們可不可以去年的規模嗎剛剛已經接受了這個大家的那個那就這樣子吧"},{"start":25908.16,"end":25928.62,"text":"是去年的規模嗎不是 去年的規模然後去年整個兩岸關係更惡化嘛那這樣子好了遞出感染值本席優先遞好不好我們蘇巧惠委員講你承諾一下現在大家都在攝影機也在你承諾"},{"start":25930.927,"end":25957.412,"text":"我們等一下如果大家你承諾的好我們再討論一下你承諾114年我們兩岸關係你怎麼樣努力好不好來我是說你陸委會你過去一直沒有做的或者是一直沒有辦法跟兩岸釋出善意的"},{"start":25958.837,"end":25980.29,"text":"我等一下那個高級委員說不要浪費太多時間那你要不要儘快你看看你講的我再來問一下其他的委員好不好好"},{"start":25981.765,"end":26005.217,"text":"謝謝委員各方面的指導那我們希望我們陸委會當然會努力堆疊善意讓兩岸關係能夠善意循環推動兩岸關係的和平繁榮這個都是我們的職責所在剛剛很多委員也有提到追求對等尊嚴健康有序的兩岸關係我們一定全力以赴謝謝來 請羅志強委員"},{"start":26012.818,"end":26037.189,"text":"剛剛其實底下委員就講你這承諾也是空口白話我覺得還是一個最根本的問題今天我要特別講就是我們沈伯陽委員的名言兩岸交流所有兩岸交流都是統戰我剛剛聽到我們在座的委員也在講說習近平如何習近平想交流兩岸交流是統戰你陸委會第一個我們預算幫你節省一點"},{"start":26038.389,"end":26057.703,"text":"兩岸交流那麼多幹嘛反正你也做到兩岸不交流啊所以我還是回到一個最根本的問題就是說今天我沒有怪我們今天主委因為上位政策就不相同嘛這個國民黨執政跟民進黨執政上位政策不相同嘛國民黨執政上位政策兩岸就是要交流嘛"},{"start":26058.595,"end":26081.918,"text":"那很多的不管是說23項協議千萬的人那個來台觀光然後往來的專業人士的互訪商務人士的交流那都是蓬勃豐盛的但是今天幾乎全部都急凍了啊凍在棺材裡面全部都死光光了那我就不知道我們到底為什麼今天這些預算的目的是什麼我找不到預算的目的這是重點"},{"start":26082.859,"end":26099.236,"text":"你跟我講什麼國家安全的問題要做什麼一些安全的演繹那我就說嘛 你直接請國安會編預算國安會編預算 國安會覺得有這個需求那很好啊 就讓國安會預算去過嘛可是陸委會今天交流協商就是陸委會的本質"},{"start":26100.317,"end":26122.872,"text":"結果到最後你現在跟我講說你交易箱做不到你只好去分心盤勿來去接管國安會的業務這是為什麼今天我們在這邊說預算省因為民進黨一直告訴我們我也很認同民進黨的概念國家財政很困難啦所以我們一定要尊潔嘛錢就用在刀口上假設有一天真如主委你講的你說民進黨突然腦筋一轉"},{"start":26125.513,"end":26153.978,"text":"燈光一亮 我決定了我覺得要跟國民黨政府時代一樣我們要努力的拓展兩岸的交流然後讓這個兩岸交流這個所謂的那個大繁榮時代重新來的時候你陸委會要多少運算還成問題嗎所以今天你的困境不是你今天我們的邱主委你的困境今天的困境是來自於說上位政策都不相同我們在這邊只能去努力幫人民尊潔嘛所以這才是問題之所在啦以上 謝謝"},{"start":26177.034,"end":26186.668,"text":"雖然主委講的我們也不是覺得很滿意但是羅志強委員講了一句話"},{"start":26188.633,"end":26201.721,"text":"對啦 可能現在的執政這個更高層他們要求你們的方向可能你們也很為難所以我們站在這樣的立場是不是本來885改成600好不好可以嗎 併案好啦 我們第二幕第二幕全部併案減列600萬元600萬元"},{"start":26216.055,"end":26223.16,"text":"那我們盡快進入第三幕請第三幕提案的委員有沒有要表達的"},{"start":26228.139,"end":26254.989,"text":"好請黃建斌委員謝謝主席主席在第三幕我們提的是第24項就是針對這個經濟業務下的這個預算本息是提凍結20%因為其實我們今年大陸也對台灣這個34項農產品的這個取消這個免徵進口關稅的這個政策那這個部分其實以台東來講對台東的世家農造成非常非常大的這個負擔"},{"start":26256.149,"end":26268.434,"text":"那我們現在看到的就是陸會只有除了呼籲以外並沒有看到其他具體的補救這個行為那這邊還是需要我們台中縣的首長親自帶隊去洽談那"},{"start":26271.715,"end":26288.6,"text":"這個對於我們台東的基礎農業特別是私家農業這方面影響非常大而且你看到在這件事情上陸委會幾乎工人都喪失那本行所決定還是要凍結20%那待我們陸委會提出專案報告經過同意之後再來凍結那以上好請張志倫委員"},{"start":26299.495,"end":26315.968,"text":"好謝謝謝謝趙偉謝謝主席我提出的第19案有關於這個陸委會的第三目經濟業務他編列了2563萬元那在113年還增加了110萬元左右主要執行內容是兩岸經貿政策跟互動議題之研擬跟推動"},{"start":26316.889,"end":26342.18,"text":"可是大家現在知道陸委會對兩岸經貿跟互動沒有成效以至於現在台灣農產品外銷大陸還有很多的項目是受限的經濟方面被受這個壓制所以陸委會應調整情資研判之比例並加強交流跟溝通所以離提案簡略300萬元那剛建兵委員也特別提到這個世嘉跟石斑魚文旦的這些輸入的問題"},{"start":26344.246,"end":26348.767,"text":"這個好像還是沒有一個明確的一個解方那希望陸委會這邊再加油謝謝好還有沒有好那本席這裡在第三幕有23案跟26案那這個第23案的這個部分"},{"start":26367.481,"end":26392.142,"text":"114年度到較上年度入委會增列了617,000元入委會歷年都有編列預算進行相關的研究但是對於中國大陸片面採取經濟脅迫行為例如取消ECFA部分、早收產品關稅優惠宣布停止台灣34項農產品免關稅等未能提前預警"},{"start":26392.762,"end":26410.532,"text":"或有效防范造成臺灣民生社會以及相關業者經濟損失事發後工商業建議政府採取有效措施循適當的管道持續與大陸溝通並且希望能夠及早進行磋商化解雙方的歧見"},{"start":26411.893,"end":26433.99,"text":"這是民間大家希望的但是我們陸委會除了發文說遭突襲而且表達抗議譴責之外沒有看到實質的作為顯見這個項目的成果對政策參考性的成效尚待改進所以沒有增加經費的必要所以本席針對這一項的預算減列200萬元並且凍結10%"},{"start":26441.936,"end":26468.452,"text":"帶大陸委員會就如何加強委辦項目之收整延期精確性及成效向立法院內政委員會提出專案報告並且經過同意後使得動之這是第23案第26案也是國外旅費的部分"},{"start":26471.268,"end":26495.182,"text":"這個增幅還有計劃的內容欠缺必要性還有妥適性那當然資訊公開也應該有改進之處所以簡列這個第26案這邊簡列50萬元好其他有沒有委員有要表達的我們第三幕羅志強委員請"},{"start":26505.336,"end":26524.575,"text":"我提的是20案實際上憲法第10條規定人民有居住遷徙自由那大法官會議解釋558號也說出憲法規定的人民的自由設定住所遷徙旅行是包括入出國境之權益但是我們疫情已經結束"},{"start":26525.376,"end":26541.879,"text":"實際上陸委會還是主張要所謂的妨礙人民遷徙自由禁止組團赴中國大陸觀光的禁團當然你們理由很多啊說因為對方如何如何可是我要講我們是憲政民主的國家我們中華民國憲法規定人民就是有遷徙自由"},{"start":26542.369,"end":26566.011,"text":"那這樣的一個一來對兩岸交流是反向而行的做法二來也是違反我們憲法的人民遷徙自由的問題像這就是我要舉例說陸委會在這段時間一直出現一個跟陸委會原初定旨不一樣的一些做法甚至不但說有這樣一個禁止對立法院通過決議要求立即解除禁止人民組團"},{"start":26566.952,"end":26593.4,"text":"附大陸觀光之限制 優先開放大陸觀光 可循小山通附金馬棚等山梨島旅遊觀光我們在立法院秉持憲法做了一些 開了一些決議 其實讓陸委會置之不理所以因此在這部分的話 我的提案是先凍結30%的預算那等陸委會在兩個月內向立法院報告之後 專案報告之後再同意後再凍結 以上"},{"start":26596.734,"end":26623.345,"text":"如果沒有其他委員有要發言我們請行政單位回覆好 謝謝委員指教不好意思 麥委員是不是有沒有 沒有好 謝謝委員指教有關於針對本會的經濟業務的部分跟委員報告三個重點我們這些預算大部分都花在主要的項目比如說剛剛委員講到經濟脅迫"},{"start":26625.146,"end":26648.191,"text":"那對於我們的產業農民的權益帶來影響在超支在我的部分我們全力來減少我們的廠商跟農民的這個減損那在這個輔導台商的部分也是我們重點這幾年中國大陸的經濟非常不好我們台商遇到空前的風險"},{"start":26649.531,"end":26675.967,"text":"以及經營的困境所以我們跟相關的機構積極在協助我們台商一方面在當地能夠轉型升級二方面也在協助他們全球佈局或者是回台投資那另外部分剛剛所提到的這個有關於觀光客來台的部分我們也在積極希望入客早點來台灣"},{"start":26677.288,"end":26700.074,"text":"我們的政策就是呼籲入客要來台就以目前的人流的部分1到10月我們國人負入已經達到230萬人次但是中國大陸的來台灣只有32萬其中10萬還是從境外來的所以中國大陸本質上還沒有開放入客來台那我們除了"},{"start":26701.314,"end":26717.98,"text":"歡迎入客來台之外我們也高度重視我們國人附入的安全所以有關於兩岸的觀光包括旅遊品質包括安全包括兩岸旅遊的穩定性我們都希望能夠"},{"start":26718.74,"end":26743.149,"text":"透過兩岸觀光小兩會來趕快溝通協商 讓政策能夠加以落實剛剛委員也提到 我們在積極地來完成有關於立法院所做的決議在維護我方安全 增進兩岸和平穩定發展解除有關赴陸觀光的限制"},{"start":26743.829,"end":26758.986,"text":"那我們全力在這個決議裡面在維護國人安全這方面我們認為是兩岸交流的重要前提我們也呼籲陸方應該跟我們相向而行讓早日兩岸的觀光能夠落實謝謝大家"},{"start":26763.328,"end":26783.336,"text":"報告召委我好像又看到他在那個媒體上宣傳一樣的聲音真的好像有點像鸚鵡我跟大家報告一下他們比去年預算增加了100多萬那在現在我剛剛一直在講兩岸的因為這個惡意螺旋一直不斷的增高"},{"start":26784.116,"end":26795.044,"text":"然後兩岸人民經濟也受損非常嚴重那一百多萬再加上我覺得這個加上那個那個志倫的提案志倫你的提案是多少"},{"start":26796.471,"end":26813.508,"text":"三百嘛對不對那所以我覺得就是整個減劣三百萬好不好然後再凍結百分之十然後希望你們來做專案報告怎麼樣把兩岸經濟和平給他再做好好嗎以上我的建議謝謝好"},{"start":26815.57,"end":26827.825,"text":"高金委員的建議是大家也有共識的有沒有有不同意見的如果沒有我們第三幕改組決議的我們也講一下"},{"start":26830.379,"end":26854.953,"text":"第21案 第25案 第28案改組決議其他併案檢列300萬元然後凍結10%好 然後要專案報告經同意後 使得凍之好 那我們第三幕就到這邊接著我們進行第四幕"},{"start":26857.332,"end":26882.843,"text":"好第四幕的案子很多我們讓委員們可以這個充分發言好請麥玉珍委員謝謝主席第四幕這邊的話第32案1330多萬我減列了1000萬但是我們主委有來溝通所以這個部分我改組結議還有在"},{"start":26887.465,"end":26891.768,"text":"還有在第40目這邊40岸這邊的話澎湖海魚這邊也是1000多萬這邊的話我是本來是動了"},{"start":26902.096,"end":26922.546,"text":"100%所以主委有來跟我們說明我就動了20%所以希望在大金滿88號這個案子他們就是處理不是很好對我們的漁民保護還有聯絡方式不足所以這個部分我動20%還有第50第50案的話我也是"},{"start":26930.179,"end":26933.282,"text":"動100%現在改為動20%就是兩岸的業務現在就是停地的狀態剛才很多委員都講了就是這樣子的一個進行很沒有進步我們不是說"},{"start":26947.637,"end":26952.981,"text":"要減他們的錢是希望說我們做不好要有一個策略做更好不是說因為錢多就會做好那麼單年也是錢都歷年增加但是呢我們就覺得越來越做得不好也沒有說有具體的作為承諾也要有具體的作為還有第52案的話是2億多2億多這邊是海基會"},{"start":26977.277,"end":26990.504,"text":"書面驗證案件就是去年就是減少3300件但是呢今年的預算呢還增加了6000萬"},{"start":26993.906,"end":26999.148,"text":"所以我覺得這個的話就是顯示時機的作業量有差異這樣的話還要增加錢所以這個部分我是全部兩億五千多萬全部減劣 以上報告 謝謝請羅志強委員 等一下請張志倫委員還有徐宇貞委員"},{"start":27023.137,"end":27051.57,"text":"我的有三十四案跟五十三案那我先講三十四案那事實上這個陸委會在第四幕法政業務下有兩岸法政交流政策規劃研擬跟推動預算一千三百三十九萬一千元我先講到底現在還剩下兩岸多少法政交流保持一個非常大的問號那另外我們來看數據事實上我一直在強調"},{"start":27052.811,"end":27072.318,"text":"入委會其實就是一個促進兩岸交流的單位但是我們來看根據移民署的資料疫情之前的2019年大陸人士來台專業交流商務交流跟健檢醫美入境人數分是9萬10.2萬跟3.6萬先把最後一個健檢醫美扣掉不算就看專業交流跟商務交流"},{"start":27073.058,"end":27094.612,"text":"那2023年起疫情管制皆解除但是2023年全年交流的人次在所謂的專業交流部分只有5600人次在疫情前只有6%商務交流2.9萬人次也只有恢復疫情前的28.5所以我就要特別講為什麼今天我們在這邊不是我們刁難陸委會真的不是我們刁難陸委會"},{"start":27098.374,"end":27124.633,"text":"陸委會在所有的各項的所謂的交流成績上全面倒退的同時那這個剛好又迎合了今天民進黨上位政策就是兩岸就不要交流嘛兩岸基本上就對立敵視嘛所以他就會讓陸委會進入到另一個新的就像剛剛主委一直講說以前沒有發生過這樣的一個預算刪減因為以前沒有像現在這樣子像主席講的啊以前兩岸也沒有關係遭到這種程度啊"},{"start":27125.293,"end":27151.633,"text":"那麼如果今天入委會你的功能是這個樣子然後呢你的民進黨的中央政府上位政策也是這個樣子那我們不怪你但是為了要讓我們的預算能夠真正名符其實所用今天就是我們審查預算一個重點但是我坦白講我對入委會預算還算是客氣的我主要是採動結案大家尊重我們內政委員會的委員是要覺得要怎麼去尊敬"},{"start":27152.293,"end":27173.699,"text":"可是有一個預算 抱歉我就收不了了沒辦法就是我的53案海基會的捐助海基會捐助我說真的雖然海基會找出一大堆理由跟藉口不知道秘書長在不在我不知道找出一大堆藉口跟理由但這個鐵針針的事實就是別的海基會他就沒有要"},{"start":27180.154,"end":27191.09,"text":"他一年增加40%的捐助欸你講再多理由藉口我只看到海基會在新的秘書長跟董事長上來的無能嘛"},{"start":27192.588,"end":27214.816,"text":"別人沒有要這麼多捐助民進黨已經跟你們海基會講政府財政困難要尊潔要尊潔要尊潔結果呢你可以多40%好啦我剛剛說過兩岸如果今天交流是非常順暢然後往來密切你真的跟我講有40%業務擴張那我們還可以還可以來好好的來去怎麼樣去協助你們把預算編列齊全"},{"start":27222.043,"end":27236.308,"text":"是嗎 我跟大家說齁 來在兩岸 就是正常交流時 大約國民黨執政的時候兩岸兩會官方共舉行過15次會議簽署23項協議兩項共事71城市直航千萬路客來台海基會協商交流服務的業務量堅遠勝於今日"},{"start":27246.218,"end":27260.331,"text":"遠遠勝過今日的時候人家預算都沒要你那麼多你對海基會底氣是什麼竟然可以一口氣要增加四成我真是佩服海基會的勇氣啦我真的佩服啦那第二個就是說"},{"start":27262.074,"end":27283.404,"text":"這四成我覺得你就不要了吧你們怎麼會有點要這四成呢你以為四成不要就夠嗎現在兩岸倒退到底比陳水扁時代都不如所以我的提案很簡單我的提案是刪除1億2657萬為什麼 我的基準是回到扁政府時代我以扁政府時代的交流能量來去衡量你今天海基會的功能啊我沒有砍成零喔"},{"start":27284.645,"end":27306.073,"text":"但是你不要跟我講說你今天到吹成這個樣子你還要政府還那麼多納稅錢更重要一件事我也要這邊譴責我們的海基會秘書長羅文嘉過去海基會絕對是用非常事務性的人才因為他需要很柔軟的身段他要非常穩健的不做政治性的發言"},{"start":27307.008,"end":27333.789,"text":"我們的海基會秘書長是嗎今天這個我們在兩岸辦論壇的時候他還可以講說蔣萬安去救人我真的是你不講話都沒人知道你是啞巴你一出口就是跟大家講說海基會廢物我辦不到蔣萬安你來做這不是政治性發言什麼是政治性發言所以今天在這邊本席是強烈主張"},{"start":27335.202,"end":27354.89,"text":"今天就大砍海基會預算你真的好好把兩岸交流做好海基會的首長今天本分盡好不要胡說八道做政治性發言來年我們再考慮說海基會看你的業務狀況來著雨怎麼樣去增加你的預算不然你就先回到扁政府實在預算規模以上 謝謝好 那徐宇珍委員然後接著張志倫那張志倫委員接著徐宇珍委員"},{"start":27362.165,"end":27388.117,"text":"好謝謝主席主委剛很多委員的發言我都非常的認同不過我要這邊講的法證因為我要提到的就是說現在政府有提供一個叫做國人赴陸港澳登錄系統這也是我之前在質詢中特別有提到的這個國人陸港澳登錄系統的登錄人次第一個非常的少一年那時候元旦演說的時候賴清德總統特別提到"},{"start":27391.119,"end":27400.617,"text":"這個國人富大陸大陸的這個人次大概230多萬人可是我們看到這個國人富大陸登陸系統的人數好像"},{"start":27401.741,"end":27426.841,"text":"才不到5萬人左右所以第一個登錄的點非常的低那第二個這個系統當時我也問主委說這個系統是為了去進行緊急處理人數那我也跟主委特別報告說這個過去這個系統到現在服務過幾個緊急處理人數當時主委沒有辦法回答出來我也跟主委報告答案是0一個人都沒有服務到一個人都沒有服務到為什麼"},{"start":27427.884,"end":27450.941,"text":"因為過去大家都習慣打的是海基會的救助電話所以當然這個法政業務我相信等一下會整幕一起刪除那基本上刪除的金融會是非常的可怕那我只要也要提出這一個這個登錄系統其實事實上是沒有功效的特別要講這個登錄系統沒有功效第一個登錄的人不到百分之好像才百分之五不到"},{"start":27451.902,"end":27464.242,"text":"第二個完全這幾年幾級處理人數的人數都是零這非常的扯第二個就是說剛剛提到了陸委會補助海基會的處理兩岸仲介事務的部分"},{"start":27466.651,"end":27484.576,"text":"從這個113年的1億8增加到2億5增加了7500多萬增加了40%當然我們看到這個賴清德總統在元旦演說回答問題的時候他也特別針對這個上海這個城市交流以後"},{"start":27485.476,"end":27505.831,"text":"上海部分如果要開放陸客來台的時候結果我們這個賴清哲總統居然說那就請這個台旅會跟海旅會兩方來去做這個座談來去做談判好像忘記陸委會跟海基會在哪裡了所以這樣子的發言我也想要請這個這個主委等一下是不是可以"},{"start":27506.491,"end":27518.684,"text":"分享一下因為過去兩岸的交流都是海基會去處理的那些海基會的功能不彰還要增加40%陸委會的捐贈的金額我也是非常不認同所以我等一下也會支持我們其他委員的提議以上"},{"start":27520.851,"end":27533.417,"text":"好 請徐議貞委員謝謝主席本席在第四幕這邊是提出44案 45案跟54案第44案是針對這個兩岸法政交流政策規劃跟研擬推動分支計劃下編列的通訊費那這個項目編列6163,000較113年增加104萬增幅高達17.6%"},{"start":27545.743,"end":27564.28,"text":"那有詢問過陸委會陸委會表示說這筆費用是用在簡訊發送而且政策規定每四個月才會對同一個民眾發送一次那我想請教一下因為其中這個部分大概就是赴港澳急難救助關懷簡訊費用是"},{"start":27566.321,"end":27592.04,"text":"編列了653萬653萬不過我算了一下就是653萬如果以現在大宗簡訊的話我們平均一通一塊來說大概可以發放653萬通的簡訊可是我們去年附入的人數也才205萬那用四個月才能發放一次所以這中間事實上我就覺得事實上也多了大概450萬我不曉得是用在什麼地方所以我覺得"},{"start":27593.18,"end":27619.466,"text":"應該是要好好的尊爵使用現在政府竟然喊沒錢經費不夠那光這個部分我就覺得增加了400多萬的通訊的費用那我不曉得這個費用是在是出現在哪裡這是第四次案那第四所案就是也是這個剛剛都有提到國外旅費的部分我們是認為陸委會應該著重於兩岸的事務而不是常常去歐美去什麼地方去取經我覺得那個應該要回歸本職的業務"},{"start":27621.866,"end":27641.376,"text":"那第54案就是剛剛這個羅產委員有特別提到就是針對海基會的這個捐助因為其實我想隨著現在民進黨執政以來兩岸的關係持續的惡化所以目前看起來其實海基會已經沒有什麼功能尤其是剛剛我想大家也還記憶猶新就是針對雙城的"},{"start":27643.117,"end":27662.87,"text":"論壇的時候我們對針對一貫道的道青還在大陸那我們的秘書長也特別希望說是台北市政府是不是蔣萬安市長能夠去幫忙溝通那如果這樣的話那這筆經費是不是應該撥給台北市政府請他們去幫忙溝通所以現在從原來的一千一億"},{"start":27665.427,"end":27690.418,"text":"看一下以這個項目的部分我們是認為今年要增加到這麼高的一筆預算我們認為以目前的這個海基會的功能看來並沒有這樣的一個實質上的一個需要所以本席在這個地方我覺得這個巨額預算的增加是不是可以帶來相對的效益那以目前的兩岸的情勢看起來海基會所能夠達成的實質成果其實極其有限"},{"start":27691.078,"end":27716.171,"text":"而且每次海基會所傳遞的一些訊息其實都是被已讀不回所以基於以上的理由本席提案簡列海基會的預算7000萬元也希望能夠讓這筆資源能夠更有效的運用在其他更需要的領域比如包括社福、公共領域那也希望能夠政府能夠重新審視一下對海基會的定位跟資源的分配以上"},{"start":27718.988,"end":27742.196,"text":"請黃建斌委員現在主席本身第四項有三個提案分別是35 47跟56案那35案這部分就是也是針對我們最近的法政業務下我們從不管從一貫道的道青在大陸被逮捕的事情或是兩岸共同打這個案件我們的訊息都比別人慢了"},{"start":27742.856,"end":27765.284,"text":"那除了發新聞稿呼籲譴責會並沒有看到如果會有什麼實質作為的部分那當然部會這邊也來說明說未來會來認會來努力這個部分這個部分我們未來可以這個可以改為凍結10%我們預算改為凍結10%但是還是要專案報告經過同意後再動之那另外47案的部分我們在兩案"},{"start":27766.144,"end":27783.152,"text":"事務法規是研擬協調及審議這邊是題列簡列150萬那在陸會這邊來溝通之後這部分我們可以改成主決議的部分那56案這個部分就是我們剛剛也很多提到在捐出這部分"},{"start":27784.199,"end":27805.053,"text":"我們經過討論看到這個收到的資料其實都非常的籠統包括他這個辦理這個什麼東下令營這個規模人數還有內容都很粗略完全看不到我們這個執行的細項我想本期還是要表達你們這個資料準備真的是太隨便另外我們看到那個陸森嘉義三線這個參訪活動還有那個高屏參訪活動"},{"start":27808.535,"end":27827.404,"text":"34人這兩天一夜的活動平均每個人的費用將近7000多塊這部分我想也要想要了解到你們這些費用是怎麼編列怎麼處理那這部分我是題列簡列5000萬那希望看路由這邊要怎麼來說明讓大家清楚知道這樣以上三個案子好還有沒有"},{"start":27832.166,"end":27854.032,"text":"本席在第4幕有5案本席說明一下第33案我們對於陸委會只放話不對話完全喪失原有該有的兩岸緩衝功能而且也完全看起來是沒辦法從制度面或個案面來協助民眾所以簡列500萬"},{"start":27856.212,"end":27882.971,"text":"那第39案就是也是針對業務費這個業務費兩岸的政治軍事經濟關係可以說是降到了冰點只剩下社會民間的互動來維持緩和那政府竟然強調健康有序的交流可是看到目前通案開放大陸人民來台"},{"start":27884.312,"end":27907.363,"text":"大概只有15項的事由其餘約15項沒有開放的需要準備繁複的申請文件經過中央各目的事業主管機關評估是否符合必要性、急迫性以及不可替代性等要件那獲得專案同意後才可以向內政部移民署提出"},{"start":27909.044,"end":27927.405,"text":"這個提出入境的申請讓民眾申請耗時備審的資料成本增加重重的關卡拉高了交流的門檻所以為了維護兩岸人民自由往來的權利那陸委會應該是責無旁貸那本席"},{"start":27930.452,"end":27953.338,"text":"針對這項預算減列200萬元而且凍結40%請陸委會就如何在不失維護國家安全及整體利益的立場之下達到實質改善兩岸僵局促進兩岸民間交流正常化向內政委員會提出專案報告並經同意後可以動之"},{"start":27954.378,"end":27971.651,"text":"那再来第42案也是很多委员提到的就是国人附入港澳动态登录系统那这个部分确实登录人数少使用率低提供的实质协助成效不明那"},{"start":27973.032,"end":27981.54,"text":"今年又編列比去年更多那規劃欠缺金食恐有浪費之餘所以我們簡列這項經費200萬元那最後第55案也是剛剛很多委員所講的"},{"start":27988.891,"end":28017.61,"text":"那這個部分呢我想主委跟海基會的秘書長都知道我們新竹縣有民眾就是被這個現在關在大陸嘛那這個部分呢前面都是本席在協助後來請那你們很熱心的來了解之後呢最後還是沒有辦法協助包含他已經被起訴了你們也都不知道那還好本席人際關係還可以"},{"start":28019.211,"end":28046.794,"text":"透過我們的台商我們了解到對岸我們自己的鄉親在對岸的情況所以我們真的覺得陸委會跟海基會好像真的沒有辦法發揮功能我們還是得靠自己所以這個部分本席其實只有簡列六千萬因為其他委員剛剛有發言人都比我多所以我尊重他們接下來請張昭偉以及李柏毅委員接著李柏毅"},{"start":28062.659,"end":28068.822,"text":"我們議事人員協助換一下電池好不好我們這個會議開的很長換一下電池"},{"start":28079.502,"end":28094.446,"text":"我只想請問主委這第四目整目這法政業務裡面有沒有很多是跟要協助人民處理事情的我覺得這一些等一下你要說明的時候你要說一下李博弈委員接著吳啟民委員今天我們這一排比較少發言三支麥克風裡面有兩支麥克風居然沒電了"},{"start":28110.504,"end":28127.992,"text":"其實現在兩岸現在這個狀況我覺得不是陸委會多強海基會多強可以去改變目前兩岸關係最大最大的問題其實在對岸在習近平主席"},{"start":28129.417,"end":28142.479,"text":"那所以說這個全世界都認知的問題那要陸委會海基會一併來承受我覺得這個有點太重陸委會海基會面對國台辦以及統戰部"},{"start":28143.662,"end":28166.44,"text":"這樣子的所有的這些動作我覺得身在台灣還是要為所有不管是在目前在中國的台商或者是未來兩岸的交流還是可以正常還是要多做一些努力所以我們是多說無益但是還是希望主委以及海際會的秘書長"},{"start":28167.461,"end":28189.557,"text":"可以為兩岸不管是目前在中國需要生活的台商們或者是所有台灣可能會到港澳大陸地區或去做經商或旅遊的人身安全以及兩岸相關的政策以及海內外所有對於中國共產黨"},{"start":28190.698,"end":28198.75,"text":"相關研究部門的這些所有的統整的所有的幕僚單位可以做一些說明那來爭取我們的預算謝謝"},{"start":28201.917,"end":28221.386,"text":"請吳啟明委員好 各位我們與會同仁其實我看前面的節目真的刪減了非常多那後面是不是能改為凍結的方向不然你說兩岸又要交流又要互動你經費又不過"},{"start":28224.748,"end":28242.982,"text":"其實我來到立法院我都是還是要求我們立委會以及海基會兩岸的交流一定要平緩還是兩岸的交流我們還是要持續因為我們台灣很多台商都在中國大陸我相信在座每一個民意代表"},{"start":28243.382,"end":28260.697,"text":"都有很多好朋友在對岸經商那我們還是希望說我們的陸委會我們的政府部門還是要跟對岸的多交流那交流你的經費又沒有那後面真的也是自愛難行啦所以拜託召委才試一下"},{"start":28261.357,"end":28289.251,"text":"後面我們所有國民黨的委員是不是可以改為我們的凍結的方向大家來共同來討論這樣好不好謝謝吳委員我跟您報告第四幕你剛剛只有講國民黨民眾黨委員刪掉兩億多你要尊重一下國民黨如果都放掉那個有一個兩億多要刪掉"},{"start":28291.212,"end":28316.844,"text":"好來我們請高津委員各位我的建議是這樣好不好因為這個第四幕比去年又多了七千多萬這七千多萬全部都是捐贈我們的海基會大家都知道海基會的預算也增加了那剛剛羅志強委員還有這個民眾黨團都很堅持尤其民眾黨團是要刪兩億完全全部刪掉"},{"start":28317.584,"end":28344.48,"text":"然後羅志強委員我覺得與其大家在這邊浪費大家的時間堅持要不要第四幕全部都保留讓他送政黨協商好不好對 趙偉的意思對 如果看看大家覺得怎麼樣對 我們就保留送協商好了好不好OK 那個三最多的民眾黨兩億多OK 我們都OK 好不好好"},{"start":28346.826,"end":28349.067,"text":"主決議還是保持主決議吧"},{"start":28371.374,"end":28393.471,"text":"是啦 是啦 主決議的應該是那個主決議的還是照案通過啦剩下的保留送協商 好不好好 那我們那個改主決議的是32案 47案跟59案其餘我們保留送協商好 那第四幕就這樣那我們接著進入第五幕第五幕"},{"start":28401.479,"end":28419.849,"text":"好請徐宇珍委員接著張志倫委員謝謝主席本席在第五幕提出的是63案65案68案69案那第60其實這前面這三案主要都是因為這是港澳盟帳的業務但是以現在的一個狀況的話其實我們"},{"start":28421.63,"end":28441.846,"text":"要派驻港澳的相关人员长期都没有办法正常的履职所以许多的业务也陷入停滞相关的预算执行状况也屡屡不佳目前也没有办法提出有效的一个应对策略所以针对这个部分我大概都提出了一些简略的部分其中69案"},{"start":28444.266,"end":28445.828,"text":"是針對這個獎補助費啦69案是針對這個項目有編列了3476萬1000元要捐助給"},{"start":28456.735,"end":28476.502,"text":"台港經濟文化合作策進會然後執行港人來台就業就學投資諮詢及專業管理等相關的事務但是我們可以看到就是自從港區的國安法實施以來許多港人因為自由跟安全受到威脅而選擇移居台灣但是呢"},{"start":28477.522,"end":28501.09,"text":"就是希望能夠在台灣能夠尋求到一個比較好的一個人道的一個環境但是媒體也在今年11月就有披露就是港人來台後常因繁瑣的申請流程和不明確的政策而感到挫折缺乏有效的指引和支援那策進會雖然負責相關的事務但顯然無法滿足這項迫切的一個需要"},{"start":28501.71,"end":28526.147,"text":"而且这笔预算当中的媒体政策跟业务宣传费用有240万元那我们也必须问这些宣导是不是真的有效因此我想本席在这案我提出要减列200万也希望我们陆委会对测镜会的功能跟效能要进行全面检讨同时我们也呼吁政府应该优化港人来台的政策跟机制"},{"start":28526.687,"end":28555.112,"text":"提供更透明的流程更有效的指引而且更完善的後續安置的措施以上謝謝請張志倫委員接著請麥玉珍委員好那個我提的是這個陸委會的第60案有關第五目港澳盟藏業務編列一億三那編列一億三千五百萬的部分其中就是要派員"},{"start":28556.468,"end":28582.626,"text":"赴我駐澳機構視察那目前來講派11名前往那這個還增加了比113還增加了50多萬所以人數眾多是非必要第二個香港辦事處首長宿舍編列300多萬那香港辦事處已經沒有本國官員駐地其實也沒有駐任的必要第三個本木有捐助最重要捐助財產法人台港"},{"start":28584.464,"end":28599.875,"text":"經濟文化合作策進會編列3400多萬以及沒宣費240萬可是這跟陸委會的港澳盟葬處的業務其實是有重複的所以而且陸委會在香港也有設香港辦事處"},{"start":28601.016,"end":28624.952,"text":"所以我們就很懷疑那這樣子還有必要去這個捐贈這個財產法人這個台港策進會嗎所以我需要說這個陸委會這邊是不是強調說這兩個陸委會跟這個策進會兩方辦的事情是否有重複如果有重複的話為了要精進政府組織的效能那我們可能會提議減列3000萬以上"},{"start":28628.712,"end":28653.088,"text":"好 請麥義正委員 接著請王美惠委員好 謝謝主席 我這邊是六十六案六十六案呢 我看到的近三年出國報告都列為機密 密件所以呢 但是他們是有來跟我說 但是我看到很多都是餐區"},{"start":28654.429,"end":28656.19,"text":"都是去參訪十幾家餐廳但是後來他們說他們有一個有規劃有改善要怎麼樣具體的進行這樣子的一個國外旅費"},{"start":28669.082,"end":28672.405,"text":"所以呢這個部分我就改為主結議要第70案呢淨團令影響兩岸觀光的進展兩岸多次隔空寒化剛才我們很多委員都說了這個部分本來是我要凍結100%現在我改為凍結20%三個月內提出書面報告所以還有"},{"start":28696.505,"end":28712.051,"text":"第86案呢還有陸生來台辦研究生一直在減少比疫情的時候還要減少那個好像是第9幕對 先慢一點好 我們現在到75個一個凍結20%一個是改為主結疫以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝 請王美惠委員主席 在這裡我來請教我們的主委"},{"start":28726.872,"end":28738.895,"text":"一月七十三日裡面我們有一個租金港澳是2001年中國要求我們要簽一個公務人員一個中國統一書還有保證位置我們只有兩個人在那裡但是我們正當我們的官司有租金和書用這裡"},{"start":28756.738,"end":28758.64,"text":"該誰講一下好不好好請行政單位說明"},{"start":28768.509,"end":28792.905,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝各位委員的垂詢跟指教有關於我們在港澳的業務我們在香港的辦事處呢由於剛剛委員所說的他用一中承諾書做要求所以我們現在沒有辦法派陸委會跟相關部會的同仁去但是在我們的香港這個辦事處呢有僱了44位僱員在那裡持續"},{"start":28796.247,"end":28821.137,"text":"旅行我們在台北辦的相關的業務這裡面包括核發簽證文書驗證還有急難救助這個都是港人相當需要的那我們在香港仍然有四萬五千人在那邊工作也有將近三百間總部跟地區的企業設在香港那麼他們都有來跟我們講"},{"start":28822.277,"end":28848.242,"text":"我們台北辦的這個成立給他們信心跟士氣的鼓舞有這個必要那在台北就是我們陸委會有協調這個港澳相關業務在跟我們在第一線的同仁做這個定期的這個視訊方面的管理那目前運作是相當良好的那剛剛有提到我們的撤進會"},{"start":28849.862,"end":28869.294,"text":"我們測競會跟目前港澳處的並沒有太多重疊而且測競會也就是我們台港的測競會對香港它有一個協競會我們測協平台目前仍然維持工作層級的一些互通是台港之間"},{"start":28870.614,"end":28894.525,"text":"官方溝通最主要的渠道而且都能夠有效的協助我們國人在香港的一些個案的溝通跟協助那另外我們測驚會也在積極的成立台港服務交流辦公室照顧在台港人他們能夠融入台灣社會能夠"},{"start":28896.598,"end":28922.97,"text":"安身立命到安居樂業那麼到處舉辦座談會讓他們申請居留定居能夠讓政府的這個制度讓他了解而且我們還做到客製化的為每個個案的服務剛剛委員所提出來的問題我們已經呢過去幾年也許很多港人不得要領但是這一年來他們滿意度很高"},{"start":28923.95,"end":28948.75,"text":"再也沒有那個相關的抱怨我覺得港人在台灣的精神狀態也開始改變那麼從過去不適應或者有政治抗爭症候群一直到現在越來越看到希望越來越安頓也很多港人在回饋社會在跟台灣守護我們這一塊自由民主這塊土地那我想"},{"start":28949.898,"end":28969.306,"text":"有關於我們策進會也推動了除了持續經合會、文合會持續進行台港交流之外我們也持續給人道援助另外剛剛委員我們雖然沒有官員在那邊但是我們"},{"start":28970.166,"end":28996.722,"text":"一直表達一種態度就是有觀色一直有兩百多萬已經比去年簡歷很多其實我們也在考慮這個有沒有邊但是我們在問我們在當地的台灣人在那邊工作他是希望能夠維持住那麼展現政府的態度隨時會回去對在香港的港人他們的信心還有企業在那邊運作是有一些注意所以我們"},{"start":28997.342,"end":29010.456,"text":"這些如果預算沒有用我們就是回到國庫來不會用到一毛錢如果可以恢復的話我們就保留在這邊它是一種象徵性的意義那我們也希望"},{"start":29011.608,"end":29029.207,"text":"對 這也是一個善意善意是覺得我們有想要的事是然後在我們台灣的這些在香港的我們的國人也會感覺到政府沒有改變在香港服務他們會增加他們的信心還有士氣 以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":29034.457,"end":29047.265,"text":"來 請高經緯人我試圖把大家的這個提案我覺得我非常支持美匯剛剛主委也講說會多出的預算會繳國庫"},{"start":29049.987,"end":29066.92,"text":"美惠律師說要減列500 凍結1000牛西庭委員也是要減列500徐宇貞委員是減列200徐新英委員是100所以如果在他的1.3億裡面其實1.3億已經比去年就增加了380多萬"},{"start":29069.282,"end":29077.211,"text":"所以這樣加起來的話 我覺得我的建議如果大家要處理的話 是不是可以大家等一下討論一下我們就捲800 然後動10%這樣子張志倫委員有減列3000對 所以我們討論一下好 謝謝"},{"start":29086.485,"end":29107.917,"text":"這個也必須要自由的防禦藥人家就是假設護人,他明年就會進階他現在整體而言,這麼多錢如果檢列八百,凍結一千,凍結完就十年可以嗎?因為他其實我們的錢都是出金,我們出金就佔了,你看看出金都是這些嗎?"},{"start":29119.243,"end":29119.564,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":29124.701,"end":29125.702,"text":"你又在那邊擋啊"},{"start":29159.757,"end":29166.859,"text":"現在鄉長沒有人在拉我剛剛有講我剛剛有講我剛剛有講我剛剛有講我剛剛有講我剛剛有講"},{"start":29183.322,"end":29191.846,"text":"你們平均也多了三百八十五萬那就三百八十幾萬"},{"start":29205.35,"end":29220.056,"text":"他要減益你三千的耶現在只剩他多兩百而已最好是三次額後期,不要等下去對啊,他是三減你們三千萬耶"},{"start":29231.68,"end":29249.885,"text":"不太多喔,我今天煎魚都煎了一千啊現在一千了,會動不動嗎?妳的丟血推動魚關羽對於馬蜘蛛嗎?牠是乾魚類還是魚類?我們最近問牠,牠是港狗的牠是港狗的"},{"start":29286.604,"end":29286.964,"text":"哎呦 細漿"},{"start":29296.906,"end":29307.556,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的食物。"},{"start":29319.707,"end":29320.288,"text":"你這樣講沒辦法"},{"start":29343.124,"end":29354.458,"text":"沒有啦,一定多你們去魚吃就好嘛,你還在那邊講三千塊現在智倫都沒有要減你們三千萬了啊"},{"start":29362.248,"end":29384.046,"text":"你不要再說了啦 你剛剛在講說三千萬 對不起三千萬是剛好智能動力的 現在是我們是減一億多的三千比他還錢多我們是用錢的比他還錢多剛剛主委還說用五千多減一千多多少啦 減一千多 百分之十啊對啊 這要報告啦 來 報告一下"},{"start":29385.927,"end":29395.956,"text":"前一圈都是他三圈他三圈這樣到兩百而已他都寫一百一千"},{"start":29405.104,"end":29406.925,"text":"現在我們就是專案報告"},{"start":29437.626,"end":29449.073,"text":"好那我們第五幕是第五幕好我們第五幕除了改組決議的是第66案67案70案71案還有72案71案沒有"},{"start":29456.798,"end":29482.314,"text":"七十案沒有七十案沒有七十一案七十二案那其他都併案我們減列一千萬然後凍結十趴那請對凍結十趴經專案報告經同意後使得凍資那請吳啓明委員我第五目七十五案改為主決議"},{"start":29483.902,"end":29497.173,"text":"好 謝謝好 來 我們再增加改組決議的還有第75案好 那我們第5幕就到這邊接著來請進入第6幕徐政委員您最多 請您先發言"},{"start":29512.781,"end":29525.35,"text":"謝謝主席在第六幕的部分我有三個案76、80跟8276案就是針對聯絡業務的部分就是總經費是3171萬4千因為我是覺得以目前日前的雙城論壇來說陸委會禁止中國大陸的媒體來到台灣那時候說因為他們都是黨媒不過大陸本來就是以黨領政"},{"start":29541.943,"end":29557.543,"text":"所以說針對這個部分就等於完全封閉了雙方媒體交流的一個可能性那這一點我想大家都知道陸媒確實是共產黨的一個宣傳的一個機構這點不用質疑但是我們應該有更多的交流跟接觸讓他們親眼見證台灣的自由"},{"start":29559.966,"end":29588.585,"text":"繁榮跟多元嘛他們回去才會知道說其實台灣是這樣子一個自由的寶島那所以在這個部分的話我們看到就是說我們在聯絡業務的部分其實有很多沒有辦法做到的所以我覺得在現在這個狀況之下其實真的政府經費是很緊縮的狀況之下我們覺得每一筆預算都要劃在刀口上應該用於真正有助於推動業務了那所以基於上述的一個理由的話本席提案簡列該項目"},{"start":29592.073,"end":29594.66,"text":"1000萬元那另外有關巴士案的"},{"start":29597.633,"end":29622.574,"text":"業務費下面的一般的事務費因為今年的增幅就是高達21.92%但是根據這個預算書內容這個所列的項目跟去年完全相同只有費用增加而已那陸委會讓解釋這筆的預算是為了增加透過多元管道反制大陸的宣傳但實際上我們看到的是陸委會越是宣傳兩岸的關係就越是緊張越是惡化"},{"start":29624.435,"end":29627.999,"text":"所以針對這個部分我也提出應該要減列100萬元那針對82案的部分是有關資訊軟體的部分陸委會來解釋是說要買電腦是不是要溝通要跟那個"},{"start":29643.715,"end":29656.962,"text":"office軟體跟我們的這個跟立法院溝通是嗎那我是覺得這比這個資訊軟體的設備費也覺得有點奇怪為什麼陸委會跟立法院溝通還要另外去買這個office軟體以上好還有沒有其他委員"},{"start":29662.336,"end":29682.696,"text":"如果沒有的話本席這個第79案還有81案那特別在聯絡業務的部分它是用在兩岸的政策說明及溝通那我們陸委會的施政目標講得非常漂亮以對話取代對抗以交流取代圍堵"},{"start":29683.217,"end":29700.462,"text":"追求兩岸共存共榮我覺得如果能做到真的是非常好但是我們看到陸委會的官方臉書主要內容有反制認知作戰澄清錯誤假訊息政策宣導還有提升台灣防衛韌性為主"},{"start":29703.123,"end":29720.133,"text":"提醒國人小心這個不要那個那簡單的來說就是盡量不要去大陸所以政府雖然高喊健康有序對話交流維護國人安全宣導防備很重要本席認同但是官方的零互動"},{"start":29721.513,"end":29743.477,"text":"官方的零互動還有對話平台變成放話平台會讓我們覺得兩岸交流距離非常遠所以經過查看兩年度的預算說明幾乎都沒有什麼差異那沒有必要大幅增加相關預算所以本席簡列這個項目267萬7千元好"},{"start":29751.67,"end":29773.792,"text":"接下來還有第八十一案八十一案就是凍結一百萬那請陸委會對內政委員會提出具體的這個計劃的具體內容預期成果以及兩岸關係發展的效益提出專案報告後使得動之那請行政單位來說明"},{"start":29777.162,"end":29806.702,"text":"好 謝謝各位委員指教有關於我們的聯絡業務的部分我們除了強化兩岸關係的國際交流我們剛才說的我們國際的訪團一年當中有140團那我們強化跟各國會辦公室的聯繫因為委員都有很多相關的這些選民的各項面的服務的請託我們都來全力做好這個國會各辦公室的這些協處工作"},{"start":29807.402,"end":29831.562,"text":"另外在國內宣導部分我們剛剛之前有一幕就已經被刪掉300萬元所以事實上我們國內宣導業務恐怕會受到影響對於新聞服務工作我們在場有很多我們跑兩岸的新聞媒體它也是我們服務的對象這些都是我們聯絡處的主要業務我們希望在"},{"start":29835.985,"end":29849.842,"text":"非常有限的資源我們還是準決預算錢資源要花在刀口那也感謝各位委員的這個支持那希望真的已經被刪掉很多的也請各位委員能夠了解 謝謝"},{"start":29857.759,"end":29872.072,"text":"好那我們因為你總共有1400多沒宣的所以那之前減300這邊再減看看這個整個再減一些你們那個宣傳"},{"start":29876.429,"end":29893.657,"text":"那就整目啦 我們就協調嘛整目看對 剛剛趙偉他整目是三千多萬嘛對嘛 整目三千多萬嘛然後到八十二案嘛所以呢 三千多萬徐宇甄委員是三一千嘛然後大致輪數五百嘛對所以 趙偉寧是兩百六十七嘛"},{"start":29894.457,"end":29921.456,"text":"然後許新委員一百嘛 再加三萬嘛大家看看怎麼樣來處理這件事情但是剛剛我還是要講一下他們有比去年多了三百多萬啦對所以大家就是看一下看怎麼處理這件事情是不是有比去年還多三百多萬然後真的是真的做得很好嗎然後我們看到真的到底陸委會的功能在哪裡這是大家等一下來討論的好不好 謝謝好"},{"start":29922.717,"end":29925.66,"text":"那我們下來討論一下好了"},{"start":29969.136,"end":29969.457,"text":"好多人"},{"start":30032.91,"end":30054.411,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":30058.404,"end":30081.186,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":30098.323,"end":30110.21,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":30148.935,"end":30153.962,"text":"哎呦哎呦哎呦哎呦"},{"start":30161.112,"end":30186.157,"text":"對呀,因為從日本來的那一邊,有錢,對呀,對呀,對呀,對呀,對呀,對呀,"},{"start":30205.028,"end":30205.348,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":30217.241,"end":30233.305,"text":"對呀,所以你先..."},{"start":30245.324,"end":30245.364,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":30259.92,"end":30277.786,"text":"不能每個東西都塞都塞都插都"},{"start":30281.149,"end":30295.015,"text":"他一直夾 趕你一直刪兩岸關係那麼差就是要再叫他們努力啊他們的努力就是沒救啊人家遇到我們的麻煩 我們怎麼辦法我們也在台灣說一句話"},{"start":30310.72,"end":30330.731,"text":"啊,好人啊,那些...我看要怎麼去寫啊?給你們賣這個空位喔,你們動不了啊!對啊,要叫人家去跟人家說,又要叫人家來買東西,還要再叫人家賣,就...還要去收房子,都要..."},{"start":30347.344,"end":30349.284,"text":"都沒有動都沒有動"},{"start":30365.819,"end":30382.149,"text":"第六幕第六幕我们总共并案减列700万元然后我们没有冻结的这个第六幕没有冻结的好那我们接着来继续进入到第九幕好请第九幕有没有委员要发言"},{"start":30390.657,"end":30405.096,"text":"好請徐益臻委員謝謝主席本席在第9幕是提了87跟88案兩案我主要是針對第88案就是文教交流活動之輔導與推動那我想這"},{"start":30405.717,"end":30424.427,"text":"今年的那個賴清德總統的這個元旦文告也特別提到要呼籲中國大陸從其陸生來台就讀學位不過過去就以去年來說事實上陸生來台的人數每年都一直減少甚至現在只有所謂的研修生並沒有新生註冊的人數"},{"start":30426.408,"end":30444.98,"text":"那針對這個部分的話目前我們是編列1839萬那我們看到的是說這些年來說陸生的人數是急劇下降我想主要可能就是我們的政策執行的不利還有就是兩岸在文教的交流上逐漸失去吸引力的一個警訊所以如果這個狀況不改善的話沒有辦法實施"},{"start":30447.902,"end":30468.735,"text":"真的实现两岸和平发展的一个目标也可能让台湾的教育资源跟国际竞争力受到长远的影响所以本席提案冻结该项目1000万要求大陆市委员会同教育部在一个月内向立法院内政委会提出专案报告具体说明如何提升"},{"start":30469.435,"end":30489.987,"text":"陸生來台就讀的意願還有推動相關業務的策略跟方案我想我們要的不是那些形式化的數字而是具體的推動一個方案那我想這也是今年賴清德總統他的總統這個就職演說裡面也特別提到的希望能夠提升陸生這個來台的一個人數以上"},{"start":30491.138,"end":30514.517,"text":"主席好來請王美蕙委員主席對於我84年的改組決議但是我要主委說我們辦公室的解說就是說要傳播台灣自由民主的國家我覺得要徹底的去做因為我覺得說長久以來中國的海上孩子如果來台灣都是中國台灣隊"},{"start":30520.691,"end":30522.272,"text":"這兩邊我所提的解說跟我認為你們要好好去做去強化兩岸文教交流品質跟內涵的問題不是跟這兩邊當我面的我覺得說實在做起來也很辛苦大家是互相的"},{"start":30549.295,"end":30555.842,"text":"好請丁薛忠委員我90案本來是凍結200萬現在改組決議"},{"start":30585.994,"end":30603.591,"text":"報告召委不好意思我看了這個費用他也是比去年多了一些費用啦但是呢一直以來好像多比較多的費用是在這個中國大陸台商子女教育的輔導經費對不對然後讓他們了解台灣的因為有很多小孩子在那邊出生嘛或者是"},{"start":30604.612,"end":30626.203,"text":"台山跟這個大陸的子女那我覺得這個部分我的建議就是可以不用刪減因為教文的東西希望就是孩子們在文化交流上面會更清楚彼此了解但是你們應該要凍結一點好不好讓你們來說明一下你們未來要怎麼做可以嗎"},{"start":30627.003,"end":30639.675,"text":"我的建議是這樣子 謝謝因為我看了大家的那個提案大概簡略的都很少啦大概都是以凍結為主以上提供大家委員討論跟商量 謝謝"},{"start":30641.502,"end":30658.735,"text":"那本席因為有第94案也在這邊特別講一下就是說我們檢視了陸委會近年委辦學生營隊案等一下請主委要講一下為什麼契約採購方式大多是限制性招標而且得標廠商集中少數幾家"},{"start":30663.719,"end":30686.495,"text":"我們建議陸委會要研議擴展青年人營隊的廣度不要獨厚特定廠商之嫌所以我們青年人的交流讓他們很自然的來傳遞我們台灣的價值 增進理解真的 台灣的民主價值我們希望多傳遞給對岸的年輕人"},{"start":30688.857,"end":30699.535,"text":"那相關營隊參加的對象呢在台就讀大學院校的大陸學生比例反而偏低那在"},{"start":30701.024,"end":30730.499,"text":"前年112年只有45人占总人数的15%大陆的反而少那113年就是去年刚过掉的这个年33人比例更少11%所以我们觉得这个缺少双向交流那陆委会应该要增进两岸青年实际交流为主要任务那我们后来又看到应对每位学生的平均成本"},{"start":30731.52,"end":30753.922,"text":"大多超过1万元所以既然资源有限的情况下我们觉得没有增列预算的必要为了有效监督跟避免浮边经费本席提出减列300万 冻结500万那也要请陆委会来专案报告如何改善以及提升效益"},{"start":30757.423,"end":30760.795,"text":"來這個專案報告後來同意使得動之"},{"start":30762.196,"end":30788.688,"text":"那如果沒有其他委員要提問那就請行政單位回覆一下謝謝主席各位委員感謝各位的指教在文教業務方面我想推動陸生來台就讀這是我們的政策方向也跟主管機關持續在進行那我們為了營造一個友善陸生的環境我們在去年年初的時候就已經通過陸生納保"},{"start":30790.609,"end":30811.028,"text":"還有十項友善陸森的一些措施比較遺憾的是中國大陸還沒有就陸森來台具體的項目跟我們具體來討論這方面我們會持續另外剛剛委員有提到如何透過兩岸陸森的交流能夠傳播"},{"start":30812.209,"end":30833.084,"text":"台灣自由民主這些價值以及我們的生活方式那這個我們如果有機會的話讓在台入生那現在就如同委員所說的學位生已經越來越少人家少數的碩博士生那大部分都是短期來這邊的研修生那我們也是一樣"},{"start":30833.864,"end":30835.645,"text":"就算來這邊研修我們也創造機會讓他們能夠深度的來了解台灣我們相關的營隊絕對沒有委員說圖利的事情出來而是因為我們相關的議論不多"},{"start":30852.87,"end":30877.003,"text":"來投標的廠商太少但是我們都一定依照公開招標的作業採取如果說真的沒來的話就是公開評審限制性的招標一切公平透明絕對沒有委員擔心那個地方但是我們還是要求品質希望陸生至少在台灣的陸生都有機會來台灣"},{"start":30879.204,"end":30899.49,"text":"來深度的跟我們台灣的學生有機會來做交流因為剛剛委員也提到我們在中國大陸台商他們的一些相關的這些暑假或是寒假的這個營隊活動就是在幫他們上一些台灣元素的一些相關課程那這個我們"},{"start":30901.991,"end":30923.34,"text":"海基會他們很多預算都有在投入在這邊過去只有120名那這次呢夏令營有達到600名的規模而且除了夏令營又有動力營所以我們海陸養會都會持續讓更多的台商的子女受到政府的這個照顧以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":30924.765,"end":30945.867,"text":"你沒有回答為什麼大陸學生比例都10%那你這兩岸交流你剛剛講說短期但是人數表示你沒有真的很用心好像有陸生就好這一點今年度可不可以改善委員一定的我們手邊的資料"},{"start":30948.069,"end":30965.273,"text":"這個陸生跟我們是50個陸生反而是51人就是我們辦的多元文化探索研習比例是1比1那我再跟委員了解你那個比例那麼懸殊是哪個交流團我們再來跟你說明好不好謝謝好那剛剛高經委員是說不要簡列"},{"start":30980.307,"end":31003.226,"text":"好那我們就這一個部分我們就看那動多少可是他新增的今年新增多少今年經費增加多少你們今年比去年多增多少你們今年比去年增加多少"},{"start":31007.253,"end":31018.864,"text":"一百多萬對吧我們增加的只是一百一百多萬嘛一百五十萬嘛左右嘛增加的對不對不過主委你剛提到說現在就是招募陸生啊現在大陸那邊不願意跟我們談嗎那你要怎麼去推動這個業務他既然不願意跟我們談的話"},{"start":31034.582,"end":31054.407,"text":"是 我們也希望 因為很多陸生真的很想到台灣來就讀 經常打電話到台灣但是因為他制度沒有開放 他沒有辦法來那目前還有一個部分就是說教育部也在研議要不要從海外的陸生像我們發現像韓國"},{"start":31056.647,"end":31083.906,"text":"日本香港好不少這個第三地的這些潛在的聲援他們有表達來台灣就讀的意願就是說目前中國大陸直接來的部分當然這個中國大陸他會有管制大家還沒開放但是就他長期在海外的一些有意願到台灣留學的這個海外入生的部分要不要來"},{"start":31084.667,"end":31085.248,"text":"那我同意凍結500單銷專案報告"},{"start":31099.397,"end":31123.547,"text":"提出專案報告萬一這五人是百分之二十喔百分之二十是多少對啊他四千多萬凍結百分之二十喔本來是凍結一千萬嘛那我們現在是凍結五百專案報告對凍結嘛那我們討論一下凍多少好了好啦凍結五百"},{"start":31131.118,"end":31131.238,"text":"可以嗎?500?凍結500?"},{"start":31141.559,"end":31146.841,"text":"他800,我們500,那就賺你的,賺你的,賺你的,你的凍結,你的凍結案是600多,你的是600多,那都是600多,一口價不見是會增百,"},{"start":31184.451,"end":31190.133,"text":"第九目有改組決議的有第八十四案跟九十案那我們就統統五百萬"},{"start":31194.093,"end":31216.548,"text":"那專案報告 經同意後 使得動之 好不好好 那我們第九幕就到這邊了什麼喔 對對對 同動啊 並案 並案同動好 那接著主決議請問那個行政單位有沒有要特別"},{"start":31217.877,"end":31222.621,"text":"只剩95啊現場處理對 我們那個劉委員的有一個第95案我們是不是可以修正一下文字對 因為劉委員現在不在場"},{"start":31245.524,"end":31258.29,"text":"主席 不好意思請麥委員跟丁薛忠委員幫劉委員看你們有連署好不好看看跟他們講說一下"},{"start":31262.079,"end":31279.775,"text":"你們文字修改的部分 它是要每季啊那你們就想可能半年一次對不對你們希望半年它是要每季一個是六個月 一個是三個月然後留用"},{"start":31295.833,"end":31296.474,"text":"我們尊重一下"},{"start":31310.594,"end":31324.55,"text":"就照文字修正,所以我們的主決議全部遭案通過了,只有96李博義在啊"},{"start":31327.709,"end":31340.333,"text":"所以9596按照文字修正通過 其他照案通過 好不好那我們接下來審財團法人台港經濟文化合作策進會"},{"start":31351.736,"end":31379.151,"text":"預算委員提案那只有麥委員的那麥委員是不是說改組決議我們就照組決議來通過可以嗎沒有意見那我們就照這樣通過謝謝委員那主委辛苦了請回座接下來我們請大家拿出海基會海基會的預算"},{"start":31450.069,"end":31464.764,"text":"那我們現在來審查114年度財團法人海峽交流基金會預算委員提案首先收入,收入的部分只有一案張宏祿委員這邊張委員,張昭偉我就改組決議就好了"},{"start":31471.383,"end":31479.632,"text":"那我們的收入部分改組決議接著我們支出部分請提案委員是不是有要陸續來說明或來提問的"},{"start":31487.257,"end":31510.866,"text":"好 請徐議政委員謝謝主席本席在這個海基會的部分有提出第三案 第四案 第六案第九案 十四案跟十五案首先是第三案的部分針對辦公室行政及業務費的部分因為我們發覺就是今年編列了四千六百七十一萬九千較一百一十三年度增加了"},{"start":31513.747,"end":31531.402,"text":"1414萬增幅高達43%那因為現在在海基會的業務跟兩岸溝通不是很順暢的一個狀況之下可是呢就增加了43%的一個幅度那根據海基會的說明是說主要在用於這筆經費主要在用於"},{"start":31532.122,"end":31549.578,"text":"文具紙張通訊費用跟大樓的委外管理更新檢測跟修繕那我不曉得說這些日常的行政支出的增長是不是應該隨著業務減少而有下降但是不但沒有下降還增加43%我想這個增幅沒有辦法讓這個我想這個大家辛苦這個繳稅的這個納稅人幸福"},{"start":31555.763,"end":31582.511,"text":"所以在這個項目本席提出簡列該項目一千萬元並要求海基會重新檢視相關的行政支出具體提出節流的計畫跟資源優化的方案然後另外第四案的部分就是第四案的部分看起來金額是不高可是我覺得很特別的就是說海基會針對這個部分是針對基金投資運用經理及保管費用"},{"start":31583.171,"end":31603.119,"text":"那海基會在這個部分有一億零七百萬的基金用來做投資我不曉得為什麼海基會的業務居然有這個可以拿可以把錢拿來做投資用那這筆的經費增加的據海基會的說法是因為要編列"},{"start":31605.26,"end":31625.065,"text":"88萬作為績效獎金就是投資的績效如果達12%的時候要編列88萬的績效獎金所以這個部分是我比較不解的地方然後另外還有就是第六案的部分就是說海基會的說明是說針對這個部分維護費是只用於會議室的影音設備電話總機空調設備的維護還有五部公務車輛的養護那"},{"start":31631.687,"end":31649.492,"text":"他這邊講到是公務車因為車領比較老舊不過我不太懂為什麼這多今年的這個維運還養護費就暴增了三倍以上不曉得說今年度是什麼樣待會再請這個秘務長說明那還有就是第九案"},{"start":31652.932,"end":31676.351,"text":"第九案這個部分就是我們文教業務的部分也是一樣就在今年是編列了3123萬那比去年113年度增加了這個1600萬那增幅也高達105%在目前就是兩岸的業務其實大幅的縮減之下不曉得為什麼還要增加105%的業務那當然根據海基會的說明說這筆預算是用在"},{"start":31680.334,"end":31700.967,"text":"國人、子女、兩岸青年、藝文交流跟人身安全還有急難救助當然急難救助這個我們非常了解這個也非常必要這個部分我覺得沒有問題但在於其他的部分不過因為這個部分好像業務也只增加了40萬元以今年度編列的3000多萬可是急難救助只增加40萬元"},{"start":31702.148,"end":31725.33,"text":"所以我覺得針對這個部分而且我們現在其實兩岸的這個子女啊或者是兩岸青年的溝通其實本來是雙向現在其實都是單向了那是不是需要而且陸生來台的人數剛剛也提到也遠不及疫情前的水平那很多學校也因為這樣招生不足而面臨必須要關校那所以針對這個部分我是提出就是"},{"start":31726.631,"end":31745.543,"text":"簡列900萬並要求海基會提供具體的計劃跟實行方案說明在目前這種局勢之下要怎麼去有效運用這筆資金那第14案的部分是說這筆經費是今年編列是954萬那較去年的284萬增加了670萬增幅是高達百分之二十三"},{"start":31756.21,"end":31763.374,"text":"235%那根據海基會的說明說這筆預算是會用在跟大學合作邀請專家學者撰寫專題研究報告分析兩岸關係的研討活動以及進行相關的諮詢"},{"start":31769.477,"end":31786.09,"text":"我想了解一下這個業務是屬於海基會的核心業務嗎海基會要做的不是應該是跟兩岸的溝通合作而不是在做這些學術的研究這些學術研究其實交給學校去做就好所以針對這個部分我也提出要減列500萬元"},{"start":31788.192,"end":31800.256,"text":"那也希望說海基會要重新聚焦於本業優化資源要怎麼樣去避免過度的擴大職權偏離本來你們該有的一個定位那第15案的部分是針對"},{"start":31804.116,"end":31807.898,"text":"對外聯絡暨業務費用今年度是編列621萬9千元那也叫去年增加了這個430萬元增加224%那"},{"start":31820.603,"end":31847.786,"text":"海基會表示說這個預算是主要用在赴大陸參加兩岸協議相關的研討會或者是出國參與學術研討會跟台商的活動還有增加臉書的宣傳的成效不過我們看起來既然是兩岸協議的相關事宜剛剛也提到就是說這個一貫道青的這個現在大陸的部分也是應該是要由海基會去處理不過目前都還沒有進一步的成效"},{"start":31848.326,"end":31872.214,"text":"還有臉書的宣傳效果不曉得效益是怎麼樣待會也可以請林部長說明一下那目前看不出來說這筆經費是有為什麼需要增加224%的這樣子的一個費用所以我是提出簡列這個300萬元那也請海基會對於國外旅費跟媒體政策的執行成效進行全面的檢討以上"},{"start":31874.397,"end":31879.279,"text":"好 請問有沒有其他委員要好 OK 請麥玉珍委員好 謝謝主席我這邊有就是一般行政第五案海基會首長特別費支出高達95萬3千但是其他機關的標準是"},{"start":31899.372,"end":31909.482,"text":"七百五十萬七十五萬整整高出就是二十幾萬這樣子內容就是覺得變動太大了這個部分的話我是已經改組結議第七案的部分的話"},{"start":31917.31,"end":31919.112,"text":"因為我們的秘書長有來跟我說明但是也給我們書面說明說我們現在就是增加台商的費用但是我們在台"},{"start":31934.669,"end":31954.515,"text":"2021年我們剩下在大陸沒有多少人還有台商回來我們台灣投資已經一兆3000多億了還有我們蔡英文總統還拿這個政府就是回來台灣的台商回來台灣當作我們的政績強調台商回台投資總額度已經超過就是"},{"start":31964.497,"end":31983.783,"text":"2.17兆带来14万的工作机会但是我们现在我们还机会要编列这个预算说为了我们的台商的孩子但是呢在我们看到的108年的时候就是我们的台商的子女有"},{"start":31986.345,"end":31996.215,"text":"兩萬五千多人但是在去年還只有剩下四千多人但是我們的預算一直在增加所以這邊我也是減列了一千五百萬前面第七案第八案我減列一千五百萬第七案的話是減列九千萬"},{"start":32010.285,"end":32022.529,"text":"這個我是後面就是說明我覺得不符合邏輯我這個我都都沒有去變還有第13案的話這個部分我就改為主決議以上報告謝謝好"},{"start":32026.136,"end":32053.781,"text":"還有沒有委員有要提問沒有那我們請行政單位我們請海基會來答覆還有說明主席各位委員這個有關海基會的預算我們充分尊重委員的指教不過有兩個特殊的情況我個人覺得我有責任跟各位報告第一個是"},{"start":32055.25,"end":32075.855,"text":"海基會的工作有兩個一個是處理交流所產生的事務一個是對話我們兩個事件都是由政府委託由政府編的遺傳那麼海基會從成立以來有關交流這部分從來沒有中斷樹木日會有起伏"},{"start":32082.028,"end":32109.327,"text":"但請各位注意海基會它不是百度邊攤今天一萬件我請十個人來變成一萬五千件我請十五個人降到五千件我把另外五個人辭退海基會不是這樣一個單位那麼交流所產生這一部分幾乎使用掉海基會全部的經費"},{"start":32112.694,"end":32141.605,"text":"那麼過去幾年對話中斷這是事實我坦白跟各位報告對話不要太多錢所以海基會的錢是用在處理交流的事務這第一個我跟各位報告假如各位有一個誤解認為現在兩岸關係不好所以有什麼事情在處理沒有交流的部分完全沒有中斷這第一個跟各位報告那第二個"},{"start":32143.697,"end":32148.9,"text":"各位看到陸委會今年捐助的錢增加多少這是因為過去幾年每年到了後頭幾個月董事長要去募還他錢不夠用錢不夠用我請各位想一想要說海紀委這時候就委託去做工"},{"start":32172.219,"end":32197.727,"text":"供錢自己去找 天天沒有這個道理我這個董事長絕對不幹這種事我這邊坦白跟各位報告所以不是怎麼忽然增加那麼多錢不是是過去幾年前不夠用現在讓它夠用 這樣而已那麼有關這個細目啊我們秘書長掌握 我不是很清楚由他來跟各位報告啦"},{"start":32198.638,"end":32205.817,"text":"對各位更尊重更詳細是不是主席可以讓我退回去有什麼報告好 可以"},{"start":32206.895,"end":32235.116,"text":"好 等一下請高金委員董事長 我很尊重您而且剛剛聽您講這句話我充分的感動我想請問一下去年是2.7億現在是3.3億是不是就誠如您講的就是您來了之後要求我們的政府要多編不然的話以前都是募款的您覺得很辛苦所以您答應了行政院長要增加的這個預算您才會來做董事長嗎"},{"start":32236.337,"end":32264.586,"text":"那增加的2.7億跟3.3億您真正的看一下現在兩岸的交流跟以前的兩岸的交流真正的發揮有什麼功能然後少子化也有然後你們的人員也減少了就那一棟大辦公室在那邊漂漂亮亮的然後你們要花那麼多錢董事長您不覺得現在兩岸之間的惡意流旋"},{"start":32265.606,"end":32283.984,"text":"一直一直的往上增加嗎那您剛剛說海基會跟大陸那邊並沒有斷的關係那既然這樣為什麼我們的秘書長您還要對外說兩岸的人民要台北市政府在雙城論壇來談"},{"start":32285.606,"end":32295.621,"text":"那看起來好像海基會的功能跟剛剛董事長您講的好像差了很大一截你要如何說服我們你增加的預算是要怎麼做"},{"start":32296.892,"end":32322.945,"text":"那我們好像似乎在您剛剛的說明裡面也沒談到也沒聽到你講了一段非常感動的一段話我們很希望我們當然希望海基會能夠發揮您的功能在您當董事長之後能夠發揮功能我們更想聽到您想怎麼做然後是不是能夠再回復到因為預算增加了再回復到以前的兩岸關係海基會的功能"},{"start":32324.005,"end":32351.74,"text":"好嗎?而不是請藝術長在這邊回答一些細部的問題我補充兩點跟董事長報告董事長等一下好了您剛剛講的我本席也回應一下你在一起好不好您剛剛說對啦這個海基會它絕對不是路邊攤嘛我們知道你們是開店面的所以花了也蠻多的這個辦公室的錢那您也特別提海基會交流沒中斷"},{"start":32353.686,"end":32372.25,"text":"但是委員們強調的是你沒中斷可是你成效不彰就像小明跟媽媽說我從來沒有停止念書但都考0分這很麻煩所以我們在意的是成效好不好成效您可以一併回答謝謝我現在報告吧我回答高金委員兩個質疑我可能忘了講一句話"},{"start":32382.619,"end":32404.505,"text":"這裡頭有兩千萬是跟政府同步調整預算另外一部分是以前不夠現在還夠我要坦白跟高居委員報告我不願意做這個事政府一定要我做我說可以但是不能叫我做工自己是找工錢是不可以我要跟主席報告"},{"start":32412.038,"end":32438.493,"text":"兩岸的事情我們內部各不同黨派各有解讀我尊重我只能跟各位報告我既然答應了我就賣命的做那成果等著看這種事情一半操之在我一半操之在對岸我想各位清楚"},{"start":32440.046,"end":32465.141,"text":"我這個年紀還答應做這個事情是笨蛋才答應這個事情所以因為各位接下來就要審預算我們百分之百尊重但是不要亂審你把它砍掉要我怎麼做事砍個四塊錢二十塊錢沒有關係是不是一下子要一億五千塊那我明天就辭職我坦白跟各位報告好不好"},{"start":32468.644,"end":32496.976,"text":"請劉許廷委員然後等一下這個高進委員二輪發言謝謝啊我們董事長有話直說不過這個還是要問一下一些有關預算的一些內容啦其實我在了解啦就是說剛剛講的所謂的不中斷也就是很多的業務跟台商等等的服務其實都有在進行這個我們都了解我們也願意尊重不過因為其實剛剛不管是在省都委會預算的時候這個其實大多也都在講就是說總體來講因為政治環境不是那麼理想的關係所以很多的業務不見得能夠如大家所預期的來做"},{"start":32498.237,"end":32519.552,"text":"那我今天針對海基會的部分我比較好奇的是媒體宣傳的費用跟刊物編輯的費用啦我是覺得在這種時候你好像怎麼宣傳都不對你如果在這個氛圍下面去宣傳說我們要大量的交流好像執政黨很多委員講說這交流都是統戰好像又不太對你如果要講說我要宣傳說這個是敵人要慎防慎妥"},{"start":32520.433,"end":32538.71,"text":"那是不是又背離了當初這個兩岸交流的核心的政策目標所以我很好奇你到底要宣傳什麼這個請你待會來做一下說明第二個有關刊物的部分也是一樣你刊物的內容你要傳達什麼樣的訊息這樣子的一個訊息符不符合當下的一個政治的氛圍跟需要我覺得這一點可能是我個人會比較在乎的"},{"start":32540.552,"end":32552.67,"text":"那其他的業務費或者是其他的行政費用等等我想各不同的委員會不同的意見那這大家就好好討論我們好好來審預算這個董事長也稍微喘口氣啦這不是亂三大家都有理由嘛我們就好好來做溝通好不好以上謝謝"},{"start":32554.864,"end":32577.152,"text":"是不是好來請等一下先請所有委員都詢問完來請高金委員對董事長剛剛講的話你真的非常的率性跟你銀切的個性還是一樣是如此的你真是講的實話那這樣子講的話以前的董事長真的就都很辛苦了都要去募款了那所以這樣子"},{"start":32578.311,"end":32604.899,"text":"照您的話非常直率的說因為增加了這個預算所以您才來做這個董事長但是呢我們看到這兩岸之間的交流或者是在媒體上的發言或者是您給我們政府的意見我們似乎是沒有看到的那我們都支持你那您剛剛說大家等著看未來的這個那我就很想問您未來"},{"start":32605.859,"end":32634.17,"text":"你想怎麼做 現在到底 因為我們要增加那麼多的預算給你 你要怎麼做那我們都看不到啊 那針對那個細部的部分 當然啦我們委員不是亂三的 這個董事長我先提醒你一下我們從剛剛省立委會的預算 我們不是像菜市場一樣 我們很認真地在聽很認真的提案很認真的把去年的預算書在這邊做個討論所以我們不是亂三 所以希望您"},{"start":32634.75,"end":32661.448,"text":"能夠理解我們的立法委員內政委員會立法委員沒有用情緒跟隨便像菜市場一樣刪預算並沒有那海基會功能是很重要的對吧我們如果是政府單位有一些問題的時候就要靠海基會對吧這也是您任董事長可能是兩岸都接受您董事長走比較中性的路線"},{"start":32662.549,"end":32686.078,"text":"可是到目前為止我們還看不到中信的路線也看不到兩岸之間海基會有什麼好的互動在我們審預算之前您也沒有拿出來告訴我們你們未來會怎麼樣但是我們卻聽到我們的羅文嘉秘書長在媒體上非常強硬的說"},{"start":32689.161,"end":32712.368,"text":"誰誰誰海基會沒辦法要請台北市市長您認為這樣子的發言是妥當的嗎好像身為一個海基會的秘書長在幫董事長發言所以董事長秘書長這一輪的發言是表示您內心想講的話嗎那當然今天我們不要浪費太多的時間在討論這個問題上基本上你們也沒有來拜訪我"},{"start":32718.722,"end":32740.663,"text":"連秘書長也沒有來拜訪我當我看到媒體你去每一間辦公室拜訪內政委員會的委員就獨獨高精素媒的辦公室您沒有踏進來我的大門都是開的所以當然我今天會在這裡詢問大的方向詢問董事長的方向董事長接任以後我特別的覺得"},{"start":32741.644,"end":32763.287,"text":"非常的好我們終於有一個沒有那麼樣的政治性的一個董事長來擔任海基會希望海基會漂漂亮亮的門面可以讓他發揮出來可是到目前為止我們只看到一直在強硬的發言不管海基會也好 陸委會也好感覺到這個善意的"},{"start":32765.669,"end":32792.039,"text":"這個橄欖枝是沒有避出去的啊所以今天我們是很重要的我雖然沒有提案但是我有連署其他委員的提案那我也看清楚別的委員的提案了所以讓董事長了解一下好不好謝謝請你不要誤會我們不是菜市場我們沒有亂刪你也不要講那個義氣的話我們如果刪了你就不做了那大家會覺得很可惜啊"},{"start":32793.199,"end":32821.747,"text":"給你加油給你鼓勵給你打氣希望海際會真的好好扮演兩岸政府不能做的事情民間來做的事情謝謝好本席在這邊補充報告我們要延長開會時間到議程處理完略請問有無異議沒有因為剛發言的時候已經到5點半了所以本席在這邊插播補充報告接著請徐以珍委員"},{"start":32824.405,"end":32840.337,"text":"謝謝主席我想剛剛聽完董事長的一番話我知道董事長有很多的這個未來要對海基會這邊貢獻的事情不過我覺得您也不要太大的壓力因為事實上在我們在編這個預算的時候那時候您都還沒有"},{"start":32841.597,"end":32858.085,"text":"這個答應要擔任董事長當時董事長人選也不是你所以其實今年有這樣子的一個改變並不是因為你所以說你也不用太大壓力不管最後刪或不刪其實都不是在你身上那你也放心我們會善盡我們的職責把每一筆經費做好嚴格的把關謝謝"},{"start":32861.476,"end":32886.97,"text":"好 那我們接著請羅秘書長來跟所有委員做說明謝謝主席我想針對剛剛包含林委員 徐委員還有高金委員 還有麥委員這些提案的整個我一項一項做說明首先先讓高金委員做報告從我一上來之後我們的同仁很積極的跟您在辦公室聯絡希望能夠過去拜會"},{"start":32887.85,"end":32912.612,"text":"但一直沒有得到您的辦公室的允許所以就時間一直沒有排那個就沒有能夠去跟你碰到面那每個委員我都去跑絕對不會獨露於你何況我們曾經同事過對你非常尊重也有以前的這個同事的情誼所以我想是因為聯絡上可能哪裡出了誤差所以這點特別向你致歉也做說明希望你能諒解"},{"start":32914.633,"end":32937.863,"text":"其實我想就預算編列的具體該這個提案做比較細緻的說明第一個許瑋瑜針對整個勞務成本有關一般行政還有這個行政業務費用的增加的部分那其實在行政業務幾個提案中增加部分是主要是在維護費的增加維護費增加了一共增加了三百八十幾萬"},{"start":32939.042,"end":32961.501,"text":"我們今年編了500萬在維護費這個指向增加300多萬這300萬用在哪裡主要是我們有5部的公務車已經16年了那人在使用那所以我們必須有需要比較多的維護經費那以及還有我們的大樓已經蓋好13年這13年中包含有冷氣還有電梯還有外牆"},{"start":32963.442,"end":32992.158,"text":"因為當初設計外牆是用鋁製的外牆那如果不做一些維護修復怕它掉下來會影響公安這些費用編列起來原來我們提出來預算經費是要600多萬但因為整個整理我們預算所以今年我們只剩下380幾萬編成500萬是用在這項目那這些細項都可以提供給委員做參考每一個預計花在哪裡的部分這第一部分做說明這部分第二個"},{"start":32993.138,"end":33014.958,"text":"是有關於這個文教業務的部分也是徐委員提出這個兩岸民間往來有關於交流似乎這個兩會沒有互動那交流是不是進行正如董事長講交流在進行其中我們預算增加最主要的增加項目增加是花在兩台商子女"},{"start":33016.079,"end":33036.131,"text":"利用暑假跟寒假我們為他辦的營隊為什麼營隊會增加第一個這個營隊已經辦了18年了今年要到第19年雖然麥委員剛有提到說台商人數在減少台商子女在減少但每一年每一梯次我們報名都是秒殺"},{"start":33037.672,"end":33060.937,"text":"還不夠想要來參加的報名人數所以在今年增加預算是為了增加名額和梯次我們增加了東定營還有高中 國高中的營隊這都是在去年便利預算中沒有的所以增加預算一項一項都有細目比如花在場地 花在人為什麼增加這些費用其實就是增加台商子女"},{"start":33061.937,"end":33085.191,"text":"夏令營和東寧營那台商確實存在而這個活動對他們辦了十幾年來不管哪一黨執政確實有它意義所以海基會我們希望能夠擴大的辦理是擴大辦理請問一下剛剛陸委會邱主委也有提到陸委會也會辦理這樣的活動那請問跟海基會的差別是在哪裡海基會真是台商子民就是台商子民那陸委會是為誰辦"},{"start":33092.555,"end":33101.531,"text":"可能又辦的不一樣的性質那我們針對就是每年台商自己國小國小的部分 國小學生那所以陸委會是針對國中高中的學生嗎我們"},{"start":33104.729,"end":33124.864,"text":"來 請陸委會來說明一下因為我覺得剛剛聽到的這個業務其實是重疊但我不曉得你們的分配是怎麼樣因為聽得出來說兩位對於這個台商子女的重視嘛所以今年多編了很多的預算那針對這個部分的話到底怎麼樣做區別否則我們看到是兩邊都有編列相關基本上沒有重疊我們請我們的文教處長來跟大家報告來"},{"start":33126.316,"end":33154.944,"text":"跟主席還有各位委員報告那個台商子女學校他們的就學呢他們不管使用的教科書還有學程考試都跟國內的學生是一模一樣的所以每個學生的補助的經費這是教育部來去補助他們那陸委會呢其實是補助他們辦學校的一些活動那有的是在大陸辦的沒有回來的那這部分呢就是因為他們並不是寒暑假都可以回來"},{"start":33155.384,"end":33169.968,"text":"他們有一些是在當地辦的或者是說我們的台商子女學校的老師的活動那可能海基會他辦的是屬於學生的部分所以這部分是沒有重疊的因為我們之前有曾經我們"},{"start":33171.75,"end":33196.033,"text":"我們是專門只有補助老師回來的部分那海基會是補助學生回來的對 那我們文教處還有一部分是補助在大陸當地的還有補充教材的活動因為大陸會刪減我們的教科書裡面有關比較政治性的一些內容所以他們會回來上一些補充教材的課程"},{"start":33196.673,"end":33224.111,"text":"那這部分的課程因為未來台商子女學校的學生也會回來考我們的試考我們的學測啊那些所以他們這些補充教材是很重要對他們來很重要那這部分是完全沒有重複到的所以我們大概每一個如果委員需要的話我們可以詳細的列出來提供給委員參考因為我們之前都有盤點過這部分多年來都沒有重複以上報告"},{"start":33226.06,"end":33253.615,"text":"主委委員確實沒有重複因為海基會辦的是夏令營跟冬令營是台商指引下暑假寒假回來怎麼辦確實沒有重複這點做說明那第二個針對剛才麥委員提到海基會的特資費的編列比中央部會高沒有我們完全比照中央機關首長副首長特別費列支標準表完全是一致的這點做說明那其次是有關於這個"},{"start":33256.915,"end":33259.736,"text":"兩岸業務費用的部分這個有關於剛剛學員提供到投資這部分我們為什麼編列了這個處理費用在這裡我們虧損是因為損益並列我們投資出去賺的跟賠的都要列那整個"},{"start":33280.82,"end":33306.177,"text":"我的問題是我不懂為什麼海基會會有資金去投資這樣的業務我沒辦法理解海基會的業務海基會不是應該要去做兩岸的溝通交流嗎因為按照財團法人相關法律我們基金在一定比例以上可以做各種投資操作以增加資金的收益所以我們在一定比例之下法律規定之內委託專業機構做投資"},{"start":33308.539,"end":33316.684,"text":"所以你們現在是一億零七百萬在做投資嘛對不對對我們總計算資金有二十億所以就是其中一億五百萬對"},{"start":33319.523,"end":33341.309,"text":"所以目前為止都是有獲利我們去年獲利存率800多萬扣除所有支出的管理成本大概投資報酬率百分之八點多以去年一年去年有一個88萬的部分就是主要是說針對如果超過12%的收益率要給要付給這個幫助是是是沒有錯目前是到7%嘛"},{"start":33342.729,"end":33365.79,"text":"目前大概是7到8%左右所以你們是預先編列 如果沒有用到這個是要還回來是的 這點做說明另外我也特別向高級委員 剛才很多委員提到關心有關一道一道幾個長者向各位報告 其實我們也遺憾 中共它沒有宗教自由"},{"start":33366.84,"end":33383.391,"text":"我們的國人是三個長者都是七八十歲高達八十歲他們去到這個在廣東而被逮捕之後有將近兩個月的消息我們一收到家屬的陳情海基會的同仁就"},{"start":33384.502,"end":33404.272,"text":"跟家屬討論我們也透過各種管道我講的各種管道真的是各種的管道包括台商還有其他的機制其他管道我們希望能夠了解這三位長者的狀況以及他到底因何被逮捕一些狀況但其實這個回來的消息幾乎大家都說得不到什麼相關消息"},{"start":33406.203,"end":33419.352,"text":"連證實都沒有辦法得到以往有些案件比如像徐委員提到的一些案件我們可以得到證實我們透過我們管道可以得到證實那這三個長者完全沒有辦法得到證實那拖了將近兩個月那海軍在過程也非常低調"},{"start":33420.56,"end":33441.317,"text":"我一直認為海基會就幫大家解決問題當有人發生問題不管他是誰年輕或長者我們都想辦法救人為優先所以在12月10號海基會例行記者會有記者問到這三個長者的問題的時候我回覆得很清楚我說希望中共能夠立即放人和說明狀況那剛好雙城論壇在蔣社長也可以透過這機會來表達能夠認三位長者出來"},{"start":33448.283,"end":33462.499,"text":"我認為救人優先不管哪個政黨政府或民間大家都把救人放在最優先這才是關鍵的不是海基會放棄自己責任或是海基會未盡自己責任多一分力量"},{"start":33463.24,"end":33491.638,"text":"能夠救人回來都是我們的最優先目的所以包在最近一次記者會我們有回答說再次的呼籲中共能夠懸崖勒馬讓這三位長者能夠在過年前回來我也聽到蔣市長回應說他也會想辦法來傳達這種訊息我覺得這是國人需要團結的時候我並不認為如果海基會呼籲救人變成海基會預算要全部刪除的原因"},{"start":33492.759,"end":33511.196,"text":"我覺得這很難想像欸秘書長請你不要這樣隨便亂講話我們今天沒有這樣子說要因為這樣子來刪你預算喔你不可以這樣子喔我們是非常在理性在討論的喔你這樣子是要提升大家的彼此的對立嗎好 高經緯我非常尊重你的想法非常抱歉你剛剛講的這個我希望你收回去"},{"start":33511.616,"end":33538.686,"text":"好 我表達說我希望大家能夠一起來救人好 這點 謝謝大家一起來救人是OK的 是我們都同意 是 謝謝但是呢你不可以講說因為這樣子我們刪你的預算你不可以這樣子說好 我收回 謝謝 謝謝你那剛剛因為講到這個 是那請問我們陸委會跟大陸官方應該也是有互動啊這個也問不到嗎"},{"start":33541.277,"end":33549.401,"text":"我確實很認真,很盡力,因為是三個散者非常單純的宗教信仰,他不參與政治活動也沒有任何政治的意圖"},{"start":33560.601,"end":33573.91,"text":"報告秘書長這個是不是請董事長發揮他兩岸之間的功能然後趕快去處理這個事情而不是在這邊又製造另外的事端好不好因為董事長說他希望能夠改變"},{"start":33576.054,"end":33591.925,"text":"這個海警會以前的模式所以我們賦予董事長最高的任務希望他能夠完成這件事情這也是董事長應該做的事情我希望今天在這邊在質詢台上您不需要再回應這個問題了可以再製造另外的事情"},{"start":33606.175,"end":33617.235,"text":"為止我來到海基會也半年這半年我當然知道目前兩岸情勢要推動交流也好或交流衍生的問題其實我們在解決問題的時候格外困難"},{"start":33619.144,"end":33639.549,"text":"但是我們仍然盡全力在做那我有體認到海基會跟海協會對岸海協會從1991年成立到現在34年這34年來它有它的貢獻跟功能這個架構這個機制我非常珍惜我認為對兩岸未來的發展也十分重要這個機制"},{"start":33641.482,"end":33663.709,"text":"我們保存它 維護它讓它能夠更新發揮不管情勢多麼變化維持這種機制跟管道我認為是必要的所以我想我個人在擔任這個角色我一直秉持的是珍惜海基會存在的價值以及發揮海基會能夠發揮的最大能量把事情做好"},{"start":33664.409,"end":33688.264,"text":"那這個也希望能夠得到諸位委員支持和在預算上的這個支持那相關預算技術性的部分在之前的拜訪或是所有文字說明我們都逐項逐條逐目說清楚增加在哪一部分哪個原因我們都可以如實的羅列這些增加項目所以以上特別向各位委員做說明謝謝好"},{"start":33693.126,"end":33696.75,"text":"我們現在協商一下看這個海基位預算怎麼樣"},{"start":33719.684,"end":33721.066,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":33745.145,"end":33750.725,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":33760.145,"end":33765.787,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":33782.944,"end":33794.228,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":33817.34,"end":33817.581,"text":"鸡蛋"},{"start":33831.52,"end":33851.747,"text":"辛苦了我們給另外一個"},{"start":33862.558,"end":33876.186,"text":"好嘞"},{"start":33896.961,"end":33899.123,"text":"鮮奶油"},{"start":33924.548,"end":33929.771,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":33955.64,"end":33970.367,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":34015.353,"end":34017.935,"text":"這裏有個大廈"},{"start":34039.41,"end":34041.811,"text":"這裏有個大廈"},{"start":34051.295,"end":34053.575,"text":"這裏面有兩間餐廳。這裏面有兩間餐廳。這裏面有兩間餐廳。"},{"start":34099.15,"end":34100.151,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":34108.336,"end":34129.752,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":34132.014,"end":34137.442,"text":"我們看一看,如果全塊變成一個山,你會用多少錢?但是那個絕端"},{"start":34148.237,"end":34152.46,"text":"海基位這邊是有規劃的,有簽名的"},{"start":34175.612,"end":34197.487,"text":"對,天天要來,然後兩天就在天天錄影我們都是男人,女人,男人,女人我們都是男人,女人,男人,女人我們都是男人,女人,男人,女人我們都是男人,女人,男人,女人我們都是男人,女人,男人,女人我們都是男人,女人,男人,女人我們都是男人,女人,男人,女人我們都是男人,女人,女人我們都是男人,女人我們都是男人,女人,女人我們都是男人,女人我們都是男人,女人,女人我們都是男人,女人我們都是男人,女人我們都是男人,女人我們都是男人,女人我們都是男人,女人我們都是男人,女人我們都是男人,女人我們都是男人,女人我們都是男人,女人我們都是男人,女人我們都是"},{"start":34198.588,"end":34204.11,"text":"我剛剛收紙在挖,我又買了,不然我會帶你去挖,我會帶你去挖"},{"start":34218.656,"end":34224.683,"text":"好,我們吃飯了,除了雞肚不怕會餓的,還有雞肉、雞肉串,他們說炸蝦子、蝦子、蝦子、蝦子、蝦子,你看"},{"start":34233.072,"end":34235.273,"text":"我昨天在這裡遇到一個"},{"start":34249.182,"end":34256.89,"text":"我跟他講話,他跟我說,我跟他講話,他跟我說,我跟他講話,他跟我說,我跟他講話,他跟我說,"},{"start":34269.403,"end":34284.058,"text":"我聽到的時候,我心想,我自己在那裡,你也不在那裡。我說,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,那裡,"},{"start":34291.104,"end":34311.295,"text":"我跟他們說 哇 這樣不太行喔都不喜歡現在 每一個人都不喜歡 都不喜歡現在 每一個人都不喜歡因為 以前有很多人 他們都不太喜歡 他們都不喜歡我從來都不喜歡 我說"},{"start":34318.88,"end":34325.329,"text":"打電話,不打電話不要去,怪你咋子,家屬最壞,咋弄咋子,咋弄咋子,咋弄咋子,咋弄咋子,"},{"start":34331.909,"end":34350.933,"text":"就一邊說 太陽光維修就沒用了所以我們現在說 讓酒要去調整我們現在是讓你調整 沒有針對這項主要調整 你只要調整得好 你也沒用"},{"start":34359.054,"end":34362.596,"text":"大家好有厭俗啊 你看人家落地了嘛"},{"start":34380.004,"end":34384.968,"text":"大伯爺無影子,無盡看大伯爺農地呀,哎呀。"},{"start":34410.163,"end":34422.65,"text":"他在台山的子女自己在台山自己有資料去那裡什麼的我們沒有辦法,他自己都會來那裡刪對啊,他們都在台山,我們怎麼來補償我也輸到刪對啊"},{"start":34437.606,"end":34441.571,"text":"好多人啊,這都不見了"},{"start":34447.197,"end":34450.058,"text":"那裡有個藍色的黃色的啊那裡啊哈哈哈哈"},{"start":34482.669,"end":34486.771,"text":"對啊 整齊又不用弄招攤 最好選擇馬上整齊吃完 第一次吃"},{"start":34505.506,"end":34532.905,"text":"有啊有啊"},{"start":34538.473,"end":34546.356,"text":"沒有啦 先說起來先說起來沒問題 阿你怎麼回事阿你怎麼回事阿你怎麼回事阿你怎麼回事阿你怎麼回事阿"},{"start":34554.88,"end":34576.016,"text":"三個 三個 上海 上海然後那個東莞華東 華東東莞 東莞 東莞最近是最多了東莞現在比較少了少 改成還有這幾年 這些財產其實他高中畢業還要連在大學比大學比大學比大學比大學比大學比大學比大學比大學比大學比大學比大學比大學比大學比大學"},{"start":34603.455,"end":34606.977,"text":"好我們還機會的喔這個好來來請麥委員"},{"start":34615.95,"end":34621.112,"text":"再說明一下因為我這一邊我是處理兩岸事務我是檢列9000萬子女教育的部分因為我有他有跟我們說明那是108年我們看到的是他給我們的資料是"},{"start":34635.097,"end":34641.241,"text":"兩萬五千多人一二年我們的子女只有四千多人但是他們現在是把國小國中國小以前都有每年都有去就有去做我們的暑期就是回來"},{"start":34651.648,"end":34672.641,"text":"現在他們上國中了就把國小的跟國中的統包在一起這邊人次就是多一次多兩次多三次再回來是這樣子就變補習班跟著小孩跑這樣子的一個用意因為現在人數少了國小的人數越來越少因為回來台灣投資也是變成我們蔡英文的政績了所以變成是他們"},{"start":34680.266,"end":34689.676,"text":"國小少了就把國中的還有少數的國小合在一起剛才呢我們已經同意說兩千萬但是呢我們許以正說委員說多五百萬嘛對不對但是他一直我們的秘書長一直說"},{"start":34697.705,"end":34702.05,"text":"我們要刪的是台商的教育這樣的話他們就會減少的業務我們都說明說我們是整目來去減淚讓他去調解但是他把這個就是像是我們委員這邊刪減他的預算是因為不要讓我們台商的紙米回來的"},{"start":34720.589,"end":34721.63,"text":"的人數變少 他的業務變少所以現在我們就不要去簡略交易的部分嘛但是"},{"start":34730.233,"end":34752.271,"text":"我们就不减略交易的部分所以我们现在减略了处理两岸事务九千万我就坚持这个这样是不是就不会减略到他的交易的费用了交易费用我们就是让所以减略我们第七案处理两岸事务的我这边减略了九千万"},{"start":34753.171,"end":34780.062,"text":"好 以上報告欸 等一下你這九千萬是你堅持九千萬啊不是總共兩千萬嗎但是他們就覺得說我們三兩千萬是不對他們的要求所以是這樣子把我們扣帽子就這樣子所以 那是不是那來來來 趕快說明一下趕快說明一下來來來 趕快說明一下好"},{"start":34783.923,"end":34807.411,"text":"剛剛聽了各位委員的意見我們現在不能同意說拼案兩千萬然後我們來調整那有關於原來我們希望辦的我們沒有要你們同意不同意這哪有什麼你們同意我們接受這樣子的我沒有問你同不同意這是所有委員大家的"},{"start":34807.771,"end":34809.212,"text":"但是麥委員您現在堅持要減列9000嗎?"},{"start":34832.443,"end":34850.396,"text":"所以沒有吧還是有好啦好啦那個對不起剛剛我聽麥委員說剛剛在跟您協商的時候您說我們刪這兩千萬就是要刪台商的教育希望你能夠澄清沒有講這句話要不然麥委員再重講一次好不好"},{"start":34853.918,"end":34864.947,"text":"我們併案刪除兩千萬兩千萬我們會來重新調整我們的收支預算我們希望有關於原舉辦的台商子女夏令營東林營能夠照常舉辦"},{"start":34867.148,"end":34894.611,"text":"那你剛剛讓麥委員聽到他覺得你亂講的要不要收回你願意嗎我剛才沒有這樣講我剛才講是說如果要調整可能會影響到因為我們要重新因為增加預算我們增加這次增加一千五百萬就用在台商子女現在要減列兩千萬等於說我們增加預算用在這邊那這邊如果要維持原來我就要去其他地方再去減少這個一定要我們要做些調整對"},{"start":34897.861,"end":34921.274,"text":"你今年增加的預算不只是台商紙米的增加但是你一直強調我們刪掉的預算就是紙米的費用他現在還是強調這樣子的意思啊對不對他就是可能不是說我可能我們我們就是要讓他來去刪減那改水就不是這樣改水啊改水就是加加一個放大這個"},{"start":34923.115,"end":34927.397,"text":"這件事情叫做開水啊民進黨委員王美惠說上吊我們是要留著她說上吊"},{"start":34946.736,"end":34951.577,"text":"讓我們何時來調因為我這樣子我愛調進啦既然我提這個計劃預算我一定希望他能辦嘛賴委員你也放心啦"},{"start":34966.264,"end":34977.221,"text":"那你放心啦,我不會去對台商子女或台商或媒體講說因為怎樣所以這怎麼樣這點你放心,我講的話我算數這樣子好不好"},{"start":34978.868,"end":35004.299,"text":"那麥委員 是不是大家統善所以我們溝通就是我們希望說因為我們看到的人數還有的費用是增加一半人數減少 費用增加但是說明沒有達到我們看到的所以我們才要說剛才我們也是全部我們統三兩千萬讓你去調整"},{"start":35005.359,"end":35009.421,"text":"對 三選三議統 三兩千萬所以我們徐宇甄委員說他這邊增加很多所以他希望說希望多五百萬但是你一直強調說你三這個兩千萬就是我們的紫米的這個部分的業務的話"},{"start":35024.527,"end":35045.489,"text":"就會減少 減少他們很開心不用辦那麼多所以你一直在強調這一塊我們覺得我們要統三讓你去調整不是讓你說你針對這一塊一直在放大好像我們是針對台商的子女所以台商的子女就是沒有照顧本來我們"},{"start":35047.13,"end":35060.558,"text":"從國小國中都要去照顧嘛對不對但是你一直以來辦國小的啊現在國小的人越來越少因為回來台灣投資也很多現在少子化對不對看到的人數少但是預算變類更多"},{"start":35062.299,"end":35064.682,"text":"我們就省一算我們不是說看到人人越少錢越多這樣就丟這樣不對服務人少當然經費變少服務人少經費變多這什麼邏輯"},{"start":35078.635,"end":35100.664,"text":"對不對 所以說我們覺得不合理嘛不合理我們才要你說明嘛但說明我們看到真的是人變少了現在你把國小 國中合併辦理國中 國小 國小以前有辦過了現在呢 他們想要再回來第二次你把它合在一起又再辦是這樣子的邏輯 所以我們感覺就是"},{"start":35101.823,"end":35119.872,"text":"五十一班嘛 對不對針對小朋友的長大到幾歲就是這樣子延續服務他搬到國中我們就搬到國中服務搬到高中我們就高中去服務大學再到大學服務是這樣的邏輯啊 我覺得很奇怪嘛所以我們當然提出異議啊好 那現在等一下啦經過溝通以後麥委員"},{"start":35129.249,"end":35131.831,"text":"請行政單位委員有些提問跟包括刪減或凍結的"},{"start":35151.924,"end":35179.984,"text":"他的这个用意也要能够理解好不好行政单位要能理解那我们是不是共同决议减列2000万可以吗可以可以了对顺便刚刚有讲了对刚刚顺便知道吗要提供提供给整个我们内政委员会的委员好吗好OK好那我们还有组决议还有组决议嗯"},{"start":35181.107,"end":35207.175,"text":"接下來請問主決議主決議有四案第二十一案文字修正那請問是不是十九二十二十二都照案通過然後二十一案是照文字修正通過請問有異議沒有沒有那我們主決議我們就三案照案通過二十一案是文字修正通過"},{"start":35208.456,"end":35233.317,"text":"好那接下來好接下來我們請專委宣讀協商結論大陸委員會預算協商結論稅務部分預算照列稅出部分第15項第一二案合併處理減列300萬元第一幕一般行政第五第七案改組決議第三四六八案"},{"start":35235.709,"end":35256.744,"text":"並案處理檢列三百萬元科目自行調整第二幕綜合規劃發展第十一十二十四十八案改組決議第九十十三十五十六十七案並案處理檢列六百萬元科目自行調整第三幕經濟業務第二十一二十五二十八案改組決議"},{"start":35258.598,"end":35272.707,"text":"其委員提案合併處理檢列300萬元科目諮詢調整凍結10%向本會提出專案報告經同意後使得凍資第四目法證業務第32、47、59案改組決議其委員提案保留送協商"},{"start":35282.403,"end":35293.612,"text":"第五目港澳門帳業務第66、67、71、72、75案改組決議其委員提案合併處理減列一千萬元科目自行調整凍結10%向本會提出專案報告均同意後此得凍資第六目聯絡業務第76到80案併案處理減列七百萬元科目自行調整"},{"start":35309.994,"end":35329.63,"text":"第八目第一倍金預算照列第九目文教業務第八十四九十案改組決議其餘委員提案合併處理凍結五百萬元向本會提出專案報告經同意後使得凍資組決議第九十五九十六修正文字通過其餘提案照案通過"},{"start":35333.133,"end":35361.838,"text":"財團法人海峽交流基金會114年度預算協商結論收入改組第一案改組決議支出第五、第十三案改組決議區委員提案合併處理檢列兩千萬元科目自行調整組決議第21案修正文字通過第十九、二十二案照案通過財團法人台港經濟文化合作策進會114年度預算協商結論收入預算照列"},{"start":35363.174,"end":35364.317,"text":"支出第一案改組決議訓導完畢"},{"start":35369.346,"end":35394.364,"text":"好 请问各位委员讨论事项所列有关114年度中央政府总预算案关于大陆委员会部分财团法人海峡交流基金会及台港经济文化合作策进会部分有委员提案的部分照刚才宣读的协商结论通过没有提案的部分预算均照列请问有意义"},{"start":35395.285,"end":35402.532,"text":"好無異議通過本次通過之決議文字授權主席以及議事人員處理"},{"start":35408.703,"end":35434.27,"text":"114年度中央政府总预算案关于大陆委员会部分审查完均拟据审查报告含附财政委员会114年度财团法人海峡交流基金会及台港经济文化合作策进会预算案均宜审查完均分别拟据审查报告提报愿会公决不需交由党团协商"},{"start":35435.77,"end":35459.268,"text":"並推請本席與院會討論時做補充說明好 等一下好 那我們請陸委會 海基會還有相關列席單位可以先行離席那我們先加油 別沒力了好很失望"},{"start":35461.698,"end":35489.267,"text":"好 現在開始審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院單位預算案請宣讀預算數及委員提案宣讀完畢後再進行協商對不起 趙偉好 來 請那個書面到底他們提出來了沒有書面最後沒有寫出來沒有寫出來為什麼我們要審查預算呢"},{"start":35490.723,"end":35499.593,"text":"那先等一下是不是給他先宣讀完我們再來決定審或不審可以嗎"},{"start":35501.018,"end":35530.401,"text":"好吧 那你就先讀 但是我真的也是覺得太多的問題啦 真的我覺得這個部分今天那個秘書長真的也辛苦了你就知道坐在這邊是挺辛苦的啦那真的也是一種腦力激盪那所以呢 您這樣子這個不尊重立法院您真的要感到跟我們抱歉所以呢 您的書面又沒有新的來那我們到底要怎麼審你的預算"},{"start":35531.667,"end":35555.804,"text":"所以我們讓他至少念完最後我們要再譴責或是怎麼樣我們再來進行可以嗎我可不可以請他說明對不起我真的很在乎這個態度的問題因為我看到聯合報我不知道這是真的還是假的聯合報上面寫說就在龔明星起身離開後一分鐘也就是4點41分立委吳思瑤在黨團內部群組說我請他們都離開了"},{"start":35561.928,"end":35589.393,"text":"4點42分立委林怡瑾說但官員陸續回委員會了立委王逸川在4點45分說內政行政官員全走了立委吳佩玉回應立委蘇巧慧在4點42分的貼圖問這畫面是4點42分所以是有回去又離開嗎政院為什麼要聽國民黨的回去呢"},{"start":35590.553,"end":35594.276,"text":"王一川委員又再貼出委員會直播的截圖說怎麼有人堅持不走呢唉"},{"start":35598.786,"end":35605.171,"text":"立委黃婕則替這張截圖解說留下的官員有哪一些呢有內政衛福勞動處處長主計處處長交通環境資源處處長主計總處專門委員我不知道這個意思是不是要處理留下來的人我覺得這是另外一個霸凌所以呢我不知道"},{"start":35623.849,"end":35629.674,"text":"聯合報這個新聞是不是真的如果是真的話我們要讓廣密書長在這邊承擔所有的責任的話我們也委屈您了好不好"},{"start":35637.796,"end":35640.758,"text":"我沒有接到吳思堯委員還有剛剛提到您剛才那些委員的電話完全沒有"},{"start":35659.668,"end":35665.232,"text":"但是他那個並不是說他請你他搞不好跟你的幕僚吳思瑤在黨內這是民進黨黨內的群組不是我沒有接到您剛才提到的這些委員沒有吳思瑤這個委員他沒有說他跟您聯絡他只有說他請我們知道他不是打電話"},{"start":35686.127,"end":35704.819,"text":"或者是他也許請誰然後包含您的幕僚那誰打電話給您的呢幕僚我有說過我辦公室同仁同仁哪一位辦公室同仁哪一位哪一位我辦公室裡面有十位啦那哪一位嘛你怎麼會清楚掉你的通年紀錄呢是不是國外聯合不是國外聯合"},{"start":35711.484,"end":35724.474,"text":"你的這個木蘭還可以叫你離開喔他不是叫我離開那是怎樣不是 他是提醒我就是說要確認我是要繼續留下來那是哪一位嘛哪一位嘛不是我同仁啦"},{"start":35724.654,"end":35746.76,"text":"哪一位同仁嘛 今天不就是在問你這件事情嗎要追究責任耶不要給同仁壓力啦 我來承擔要追究責任啦 所以你的意思是說你自己要承擔責任是不是那請問一下你要怎麼懲處你自己看看啦 委員會怎麼決定我就照辦好 我們有一個提案啦沒有看到 來 現在有哪一個提案"},{"start":35751.246,"end":35757.274,"text":"因為我們清楚知道你要自己承擔這個責任啦你辛苦了也委屈你啦來 我們的提案是這個"},{"start":35758.717,"end":35781.414,"text":"主委你那天明明就有回來而且我們大家都坐在委員席我們都看到你接了一個電話然後掛斷取聲就走你的一個幕僚可以指使你離開你在你早上的報告裡面寫說因為不確定沒看到朝偉回來所以你不確定會議是否開始你是不會問一下大家嗎我們都坐在那裡那不是在開會是什麼"},{"start":35782.014,"end":35801.377,"text":"我覺得這第一個很奇怪啦第二個聽我把話講完第二個就是說下午的時候你在報告裡面你講說下午的時候因為顯示並沒有這個會議狀態並沒有改變你就馬上離開你難道不知道二十分鐘之後會議就改變了嗎你行政院這麼多的人這麼多的府會啊通通在立法院裡面走動都沒有人跟你講狀況改變了嗎這不是很奇怪嗎你要不要先針對早上你的亂七八糟的報告我給你一個下午寫新報告你也沒寫出來那是不是要交代一下"},{"start":35810.612,"end":35819.899,"text":"坐在這邊你坐在這邊是得寫啊對不對來你先針對剛剛的問題回答一下到底發生什麼事了我覺得很奇怪耶請秘書長秘書長"},{"start":35822.557,"end":35846.053,"text":"那個我剛才講說兩點多的時候那時候是會議還沒召開吧螢幕上顯示嘛那後來當然有改對不對對你知道有改嗎對我改所以為什麼我要回來看一看就是因為他改了對啊那改了你看到我們就坐在這邊那不是要開會是什麼呢那為什麼走了呢對啊那後來就很抱歉沒有看到主秘是主秘通知您回來的吧請問一下是不是"},{"start":35847.182,"end":35852.823,"text":"醫事人員有醫事人員通知嘛醫事人員通知你回來啊就表示是要開會啊不是這樣我都不知道該怎麼說了你這個離開很奇怪啦第二個就是說你本來有幾位幹部坐在這個下面我們還幫他拍拍手我印象很深刻說這個堅守崗位沒有忘記被尋的義務結果這些人不知道為什麼就走了然後後來聯合報報導出來才講啊原來有人點名嘛那不然為什麼他們走了呢"},{"start":35877.583,"end":35890.984,"text":"你的五位坐在下面的那五位處長是在開會的狀態許新寅 趙偉思已經進來已經開始開會了為什麼他們離開了你作為頂頭上司你要不要說明一下為什麼我沒有指使他們做什麼動作"},{"start":35892.789,"end":35918.32,"text":"你沒有指使但那一天發生一件事他們要走我就說你們可能我們也不為難他們我們就說那如果你有被要求要離開你就離開結果一個一個就離開了那因為他們是列席的行政官員我們就不好我就沒有問他說好那你離開是誰要求你所以等於表示就是他們已經用行動表示說上面或是"},{"start":35919.824,"end":35939.933,"text":"主管單位有示意就是要他們離開了當天其實那個都有錄音錄影都可以查得到他們就陸續走了所以就明明就知道有這些事情然後你還寫出這樣的報告簡直就是匪夷所思這個讓人沒有辦法理解這沒有辦法理解總要有個說法有個交代"},{"start":35941.24,"end":35967.418,"text":"你今天如果一早就是這個當然我們都清楚那天早上的狀況是很混亂的所以你說早一點你也許跟徐經理稍微打一個招呼跟再兩位事後那個12月幾號你現在兩個禮拜12月18對不對大半個月了你就會來但凡你來講解釋解釋清楚說明今天狀況不會這麼難看就什麼話也沒有又媒體剛好又有講到說原來是受黨團的指指當然真假這是大家各說各話啦"},{"start":35968.138,"end":35990.243,"text":"可是中間你都沒有來說明後面什麼那當然現在不是僵在這個地方了嗎那你說我們應該怎麼處理呢對不對總不能真的開了這個惡例之後以後所有行政官員可以自己去詮釋立法院的會議狀態說走就走那以後立法院在野黨怎麼監督都很奇怪嗎不管是你要或是你手下那五個處長要你總要有個說法吧"},{"start":35991.067,"end":36019.574,"text":"對不對我是不會太為難你手下的人啦他們說我看到那邊我後面拍手是我也很擔心要變夾心餅乾啦事實上我的預測是正確的對不對但你做的頂頭上因為你來過嘛你來過我們就講說等一下要開會對不對我謝謝你特別回來我都還特別講我都有印象我就坐在這個位置結果跑掉了那不是很奇怪嗎對不對你還是要給大家一個說法啦好謝謝好那我們剛剛有他們這個一些委員的提議齁那是不是念一下"},{"start":36023.649,"end":36034.116,"text":"要不要印一下 要印一下 先印一下好了主席 後面也印一下給我們看一看 不然錢責我們來印一下意見也看一看"},{"start":36051.14,"end":36052.904,"text":"那 牧師長你先回座一下"},{"start":36094.789,"end":36111.156,"text":"先發先發給民進黨的委員沒有 沒有 不用 不用叫孫希蘭叫孫希蘭不要緊 你叫我怎麼分怎麼分好 從這邊開始分這邊這邊這邊先"},{"start":36124.236,"end":36127.557,"text":"好 那我們請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":36149.203,"end":36174.143,"text":"113年12月18日内政委员会通过临时提案要求行政院于一周内就行政院秘书长龚明星未经召委同意擅自离开会议室回避国会监督以示提出调查报告然行政院秘书长龚明星竟无视内政委员会通过之决议今日提出报告内容敷衍了事完全未提及神秘电话来源及相关失职人员显有隐匿之情事"},{"start":36174.583,"end":36200.994,"text":"原要求行政院秘書長龔明欣對藐視國會之行徑提出道歉並負起相關政治責任另要求行政院於一個月內提出懲處名單提案人高金素梅曼玉珍黃劍兵兵學中張智倫徐宇珍牛許廷宣讀完畢好這個案子我們是不是就通過維持立法院的一個原則跟尊嚴好不好好"},{"start":36207.82,"end":36230.33,"text":"我不知道行政院他們看法怎樣但我覺得並負起相關政治責任另要求行政院一個月內提出懲處名單我覺得這一句要不要留著還是刪掉我覺得這一個事件其實就是政治責任的事件"},{"start":36233.584,"end":36250.565,"text":"那我們提案委員的意見如何我剛剛沒有聽清楚剛剛是講本來就是政治責任那個張昭偉他說最後一句是不是拿掉然後你肩負起相關政治責任嗎"},{"start":36253.274,"end":36281.206,"text":"最後最後一句對另要求這邊拿掉我認為應該要啊因為今天是行政院秘書長是代表行政院出席立法院內政委員會的備詢還有審查預算當然是行政院要負起責任而且剛剛鞏租鞏秘書長我覺得你是一個很勾引的人我們真的也也心疼你啦但是這件事情呢無關政黨"},{"start":36282.426,"end":36305.066,"text":"他必須要在立法院建立起一個非常嚴肅的一個規範如果行政院都不給出一個交代的話我覺得這個真的是磁力一開以後就沒完沒了那立法院只要是任何一個人在場的官員他認為他要離席他就離席嗎是可以這樣嗎"},{"start":36309.09,"end":36317.261,"text":"好那我們是不是照案通過我們就通過這個要表決秘書長你要你要不要說一下還是好那請秘書長"},{"start":36328.019,"end":36355.241,"text":"這件事情我就自己承擔那前面寫的事情我會做一個回應我會寫一個報告那至於說懲處的部分也僅之於我我只能這樣講而已對不起不是你的問題你的職位是行政院秘書長今天我們對的是行政院對於這件事情我剛剛已經說過了你是代表行政院來這邊接受內政委員會的質詢"},{"start":36357.342,"end":36379.597,"text":"所以不是你說怎樣就怎樣好不好謝謝好那所以因為民進黨委員有提出說要表決啦好不好那提出要表決我們就針對這一塊這一塊好那我們贊成通過的請舉手"},{"start":36385.867,"end":36411.243,"text":"贊成通過的劉許廷委員贊成徐宇貞委員贊成丁學中委員贊成黃建斌委員贊成高金素梅委員贊成麥玉珍委員贊成反對通過的請舉手張宏祿召委反對黃捷委員反對王美惠委員反對蘇巧惠委員反對李博義委員反對吳啟明委員反對"},{"start":36414.124,"end":36428.838,"text":"好 那這樣是6比6那本席就贊成通過啦所以我們就通過這個案子好 通過這個案子 好"},{"start":36431.442,"end":36446.296,"text":"接著我們現在開始審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院單位預算案請宣讀預算書及委員提案宣讀完畢後再進行協商請宣讀"},{"start":36449.688,"end":36475.927,"text":"114年度行政院税入预算第二款罚款及赔偿收入第五项行政院无劣数第三款归备收入第四项行政院无劣数第四款财产收入第六项行政院427万元第一幕财产支息391万7千元第二幕废旧物资售价35万3千元第五款营业盈余及事业收入"},{"start":36477.216,"end":36494.025,"text":"第一項行政院兩千億兩千九百一四萬兩千元第七款其他收入第六項行政院一百一十五萬兩千元稅出部分第二款行政院主管第一項行政院"},{"start":36495.745,"end":36518.261,"text":"15亿3364万6千元第一幕一般行政11亿0844万6千元第二幕施政及法治业务1488万5千元第三幕施政推展联系615万元第四幕联合服务业务3788万7千元第五幕灾害防救及国土安全1575万7千元"},{"start":36520.623,"end":36527.494,"text":"第六目性别平等业务1627万3000元第七目消保及食安业务1432万5000元"},{"start":36530.117,"end":36539.006,"text":"第八幕 資訊管理6,899萬元第九幕 新聞傳播業務5,195萬9千元第十幕 人權及轉型正義1,315萬元第十一幕 個資保護委員會籌備業務1億2,151萬6千元第十二幕 一般建築及設備6,058萬元"},{"start":36552.999,"end":36576.434,"text":"第十三目第一預備金三百八十萬元 接續宣讀提案行政院稅出部分第一項行政院為第一至十三案 共計十三案第一目一般行政為第十四至第二十九案 共計十六案第二目施政及法制業務為三十至四十九案 共計二十案"},{"start":36578.547,"end":36595.414,"text":"第三幕市政推展聯繫為50至51案共計2案第四幕聯合服務業務為52至59案共計8案第五幕災害防救及國土安全為60至63案共計4案第六幕性別平等業務為64至72案共計9案"},{"start":36599.042,"end":36607.744,"text":"第七目消保及食安業務為73至82案共計10案第八目資訊管理為83至85案共計3案第九目新聞傳播業務為86至98案共計13案第十目人權及轉型正義為第99至106案共計8案"},{"start":36621.167,"end":36626.888,"text":"第十一幕各自保護委員會籌備業務為107至116案共計10案第十二幕第一班建築及設備為117至118案共計2案主決議部分為119至129案共計11案內容請委員參閱宣讀完畢"},{"start":36647.196,"end":36656.607,"text":"好 請問各位委員討論事項所列有關114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院單位預算案"},{"start":36658.479,"end":36675.71,"text":"全部保留送協商 請問有異議對不起 包括委員的提案還有我們之前談的組決議所以我們都不處理 全部一起是好嗎 對不起好 謝謝全部保留送協商好 那沒關係 來 有異議請表達我會這樣喔"},{"start":36679.452,"end":36690.295,"text":"到這陣子到下午2點10分啦因為說實在是怎麼沒得審啦今年又來了,在這裡也陷很多人嘛也審很多,也黏住了,這不行那沒關係,我們現在我們現在來協商一下吧休息兩分鐘好不好"},{"start":36707.782,"end":36712.286,"text":"是協商還休息?協商就可以啊。我們現在開始協商。"},{"start":36728.9,"end":36729.22,"text":"一公屋"},{"start":36758.88,"end":36762.263,"text":"可以用摩托車嗎?可以用摩托車"},{"start":36775.713,"end":36775.933,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":36817.326,"end":36826.788,"text":"協商結果有關114年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院的單位預算案全部保留送協商"},{"start":36830.267,"end":36848.17,"text":"这是协商结论那有关正式别税出预算随同机关别审查结果调整114年度中央政府总预算案分配由本会审查所有之公务预算均已审查完均"},{"start":36849.091,"end":36869.961,"text":"你據審查報告含送財政委員會提報院會討論院會討論前須交由黨團協商院會討論時由徐昭偉新穎補充說明本日議程處理完畢現在散會辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"16442","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16442","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d2b89873ec9b2dea25e5a7d9476abbdb3529fa0cca45d5627aac46294e8a655b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-01-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第24次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長報告「推動『二軌外交』與『元首外交』（含『繁榮南島智慧永續』出訪專案與友邦合作計畫）及近期外交出訪之成效」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-01-02","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-01-02T08:30:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-01-02T11:44:00+08:00","duration":11595,"影片長度":"03:13:15","委員發言時間":"08:30:45 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敬請委員參考本部完整的書面報告那麼就總統的出訪就是繁榮南島智慧永續這個專案的一個成果基本上"},{"start":2144.673,"end":2144.995,"text":"總統是在"},{"start":2146.141,"end":2173.538,"text":"就是上年11月30日到12月6日率總統府潘秘書長等以及外交部還有相關的部會行政首長跟代表以及媒體團員訪問我太平洋三個友邦分別是馬紹爾群島共和國土瓦魯國還有帛琉共和國期間並過境美國的檀香山以及關島拜會了"},{"start":2177.651,"end":2202.242,"text":"馬國總統海尼總統圖瓦魯國戴菲利總理還有帛琉的惠宿人總統等友邦元首及政要總統更是在馬國及帛琉國會發表演說也出席見證各項推動中的計畫成果豐碩具體深化我國與太平洋三友邦合作的關係這一次出訪設定了"},{"start":2204.223,"end":2231.368,"text":"智慧永續、民主永續、邦誼永續等三項任務順利達成了以下四方面的成果第一是深化我與友邦高層的情誼總統此行與太平洋三友邦均受到友邦元首、政府官員高規格的接待並一同見證各領域合作計畫成果有助於深化及鞏固邦誼"},{"start":2232.506,"end":2250.717,"text":"第二 開啟價值外交新時代那總統這一次的出訪成功彰顯台灣與民主國家雙贏共榮的價值外交成果總統除了與三個友邦元首夏威夷州長及關島總督密切互動之外也與美國跨黨派議長、議員等政要通話或視訊也展現美國國會跨黨派議員及地方政府對台灣的強韌支持"},{"start":2262.23,"end":2279.823,"text":"第三彰顯台美緊密友好夥伴關係而美方根據安全尊嚴便利舒適等原則提供總統出入境禮遇通關以及全程的安全保護並於夏威夷及關島過境期間安排總統於機邊下機登車高規格禮遇展現對我之重視"},{"start":2286.628,"end":2312.241,"text":"第四 凝聚海外挺台灣的力量總統所到之處均廣受當地僑民熱烈的支持以及歡迎成功凝聚了海外僑胞對台灣的深厚情感以及堅定的支持那麼以下在就近期外交出訪的成果加以說明那麼第一個是深化及鞏固友邦的邦誼那由本人在"},{"start":2313.442,"end":2321.206,"text":"就是去年10月以總統特使身份赴加勒比海友邦聖文升旗格瑞納丁慶賀該國45週年的獨立紀念日並"},{"start":2327.74,"end":2342.134,"text":"順訪瓜地、馬拉、聖露西亞、貝里斯及聖克里斯多福及尼維斯期間與各友邦元首及政要會晤並充分交換意見未來將持續協調各部會的資源積極來推動龍邦計畫"},{"start":2344.929,"end":2358.898,"text":"那第二點強化我與歐洲各國價值外交的關係本人與吳志忠政務次長分別在去年的11月訪問歐洲地區的國家那相近出訪歐洲議會那"},{"start":2361.411,"end":2389.713,"text":"以及所在地比利時的國會議員還有立陶宛、波蘭、德國、捷克、法國以及斯洛伐克等國家爭取歐洲各國高層對我的支持表達台灣對自由、民主、和平及人權的重視並拓展我與各國民主及經貿夥伴的關係第三方面就是持續深化我與非洲的外交布局吳志忠政策在"},{"start":2390.956,"end":2411.74,"text":"就是去年底12月以總統特使身份出席索馬利蘭新任總統的就職典禮或索馬利蘭新任的總統艾萊曼的接見並肯定我國協助索蘭與民主化、教育、農業、資通訊、能源及礦產開發等領域的發展"},{"start":2415.101,"end":2432.65,"text":"最後是結語外交部將持續與總和外交的策略來實踐總統價值外交的理念與經濟日補落國的願景以及以我國優勢的產業整合跨部會的合作能量推動我與友邦的農邦計畫"},{"start":2434.042,"end":2446.38,"text":"那麼並與美國為首的理念相近夥伴深化經濟及安全合作共同打造全球自由和平與繁榮那麼以上主要是針對元首"},{"start":2447.608,"end":2473.897,"text":"外交以及近期的出訪另外有關於二軌外交方面因為韓社的範圍非常的廣也能夠補我們政府正式的外交之不足有時候一軌二軌之間也會交互的來運用有所謂一軌半在去年整體特別是除了邦交國以外"},{"start":2475.029,"end":2491.167,"text":"我們理念相近的國家對於中國崛起所造成的挑戰跟威脅呢也非常多來進行了所謂智庫的外交那當然除了外交部我們支持民主基金會"},{"start":2492.188,"end":2520.581,"text":"還有非常多的國家級的智庫包括遠景基金會非常多也包括台亞基金會等都有非常多一軌半跟兩軌的外交尤其在台美之間也透過雙邊在結合多邊的關係特別是GCTF全球合作訓練夥伴的架構來延伸到第三國甚至區域性的"},{"start":2521.461,"end":2549.874,"text":"跨多國的一個所謂的惡鬼外交那這方面的成果非常的豐碩那在外交部所屬的這個我們NGO這個事務會還有結合包括我們的各個司還有外管密切的在推動有關於惡鬼外交那這部分再請委員這個指教"},{"start":2550.794,"end":2552.655,"text":"謝謝 那以上報告現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鐘非本會的委員6分鐘10點半發言登記截止 如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右視詢答情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":2586.113,"end":2589.974,"text":"謝謝主席 有請林佳龍部長請林部長部長早委員早部長 我們這個惡鬼外交是台灣在國際社會中突破困境很重要的策略我們透過智庫還有學術界以及非政府組織的合作讓國際的友人更加了解台灣的處境跟價值觀"},{"start":2614.779,"end":2640.906,"text":"那我記得去年11月的時候呢斯洛伐克這個全球安全論壇他有舉辦了一個台灣論壇那吸引了中東歐地區的這個政界學術界還有這個智庫代表來出席那這場活動其實是還蠻成功的展現了台灣跟民主國家的合作的這個潛力那既不凸顯台灣的這個國際的能見度可是呢同樣的在去年的這個九月份"},{"start":2641.466,"end":2662.026,"text":"瑞士智庫外交政策論壇跟我國駐瑞士代表處合辦了一個研討會可是卻遭遇到中國大使館的多次的施壓甚至試圖要取消我們這個場地的使用權儘管到後來活動是如期的舉行可是主辦單位是被迫升級維安的措施所以我想"},{"start":2662.726,"end":2687.039,"text":"請教部長面對這些施壓跟這個風險那我們外交部是否考慮成立一個專責的應對小組整合國內外的這個資源呢為智庫提供具體的這個支持那同時呢協助各智庫的拓展資金跟人力那進一步提升我們這些智庫在國際合作的這個能力跟效益請問部長我們有沒有這些的這個策劃跟想法"},{"start":2688.68,"end":2709.634,"text":"跟委員報告是有因為我們在推動總和外交也是要整合我們外交部還有政府各單位的力量那智庫外交其實在民主國家這是很正常的但是只要涉及到這些就是不管是"},{"start":2711.329,"end":2734.482,"text":"惡鬼外交裡面的智庫外交或NGO外交中共還是會抗議但是在像以在歐洲來講我們大概也都能夠順利溝通因為他們很清楚其實在民主國家行政部門之外也有國會那另外就是這種智庫不管是不是受政府的補助或是民間的基金會"},{"start":2735.382,"end":2759.576,"text":"那我們現在就是跟外交學院來加強跨單位的有關於惡鬼外交的一個整合那原社會也是所以有關於我們過去各師在尤其地域師在各州這些支持的計畫或是我們派人去參與我們也是就台灣的所有的可能的人才"},{"start":2760.476,"end":2776.99,"text":"還有相關的這些專業團體特別是民間的NGO我們現在也都會比較有組織的來推薦另外台灣本身也主辦了很多這方面的活動邀請世界各國來不管是凱達格蘭論壇玉山論壇還有各方面的一個大型的會議所以資源的整合包括資訊能夠好好的來"},{"start":2790.24,"end":2803.865,"text":"讓台灣就是全民都來拚外交來做總和外交的一個後盾所以我們會再加強這方面有關於資料庫還有相關的活動資訊的分享"},{"start":2805.866,"end":2820.015,"text":"也會希望智庫之間也可以橫向的分工合作一起因為台灣的外交處境很特別我們就是要透過可以說是全民外交的方式走出去"},{"start":2821.013,"end":2848.38,"text":"是因為部長你之前也提到就是說我們人人都是外交官這樣子的一個觀念可是我們在斯洛伐克的論壇的成功我們也展現了台灣跟民主國家這個合作的這個潛力可是瑞士智庫在外交政策論壇面臨的挑戰跟這個挑戰呢其實也提醒了我們推動這個惡鬼外交必須要更加的這個靈活更加的這個有韌性才能跟"},{"start":2848.86,"end":2863.383,"text":"跟這個元首外交呢相輔相成那當然我們今天還要提到的就是元首外交那元首外交一直以來呢都是台灣外交上一個很重要的這個戰略的這個這個工具呢那就像這個賴清德總統近期推動的這個繁榮南島智慧永續的這個專案呢都充分的展現了元首外交在深化邦交上的這個實際的作用可是我們在檢視我們跟友邦的合作計畫的時候其實也發現了一些挑戰"},{"start":2877.465,"end":2884.352,"text":"當然這挑戰可以做未來雙邊合作計畫的新方向首先我們要看到像這次賴清德總統到南太平洋群島我們先看馬紹爾群島我們有透過台灣衛生中心計畫協助馬久羅醫院成立的人工智慧機遠距"},{"start":2897.765,"end":2900.067,"text":"醫療中心這是台灣跟馬紹爾群島在醫療合作上一個很重大的進展可是我們看到馬國目前還是面臨兩個很大的挑戰第一個就是他們國民的糖尿病盛行率高達20.7%"},{"start":2913.337,"end":2937.802,"text":"那這基層醫療造成了很大的這個壓力可是呢他們的這個護理人員是嚴重的不足那進一步限制了當地醫療資源的這個運作的效能比如說我們所看到數據是畢業生臨床投入的這個比例是低於25%的那像這樣子的話我們外交部是不是有針對當地的這個公衛的挑戰跟護理人員的這個缺口這部分有進一步提出深化合作的具體的這個戰略請問部長好"},{"start":2941.343,"end":2960.057,"text":"就是我們的跟友邦我們現在在推動龍邦計畫就有智慧醫療那常年也在訓練他們的醫護人員可是怎麼樣去取得證照能夠返國服務那特別是醫療這些中心 診所我們現在也推動這個醫院的資訊系統"},{"start":2961.978,"end":2981.03,"text":"這些都是建構他的大數據那未來透過遠距的醫療還包括AI的導入那這一次的馬紹爾群島的一個成果的呈現因為他們的飲食還有整個公共衛生的環境確實是糖尿病比較多另外就是洗腎所以總統也有指示"},{"start":2981.63,"end":2999.643,"text":"因為雙和醫院是一國一中心是在馬紹爾群島負責的醫院我們過去是我們國和會支持由衛福部來協調相關的醫院能夠進行一國一中心的這些比較屬於援外但是我們現在是希望把它導入到包括"},{"start":3002.031,"end":3028.243,"text":"除了他的這個醫院的這些設備儀器醫護人員的訓練還有醫院的整個經營包括這些相關的資訊系統以及未來導入就是說像智慧跟AI遠距所以雙核醫院這方面我們就會以加強它的能量那其他像在這個土瓦魯是中山這個"},{"start":3031.345,"end":3058.665,"text":"中山醫院就是中山大學的醫學院護社的醫院在帛琉是有星光醫院跟秀傳醫院等這個必須要做整合如果不能讓這些人才返國去服務的話我們要派台灣的人長期住那邊當然也有困難所以我們已經栽培這麼多人才怎麼要把它做系統整合"},{"start":3059.105,"end":3081.124,"text":"另外一個跟委員報告像在帛琉的計畫我們現在在朝向的是台灣跟美國日本甚至澳洲一起來合作除了他們的醫院的這種新的這個園區以外那台灣在醫療的這個經營方面特別是服務的水準用這個方式來進行多國就是一起的這個農幫計畫"},{"start":3083.146,"end":3106.411,"text":"是 但我們希望說我們的合作計畫都可以延續那當然這些我們所面臨的挑戰可能要先克服那再來我們也了解說像馬紹爾群島其實像他這個醫護人員的薪資其實也是非常的低所以留不住一些人才就像台灣我們有帶為他們訓練一些醫護人才可是回去之後也不一定會留在這個領域所以這部分可能都是我們要面臨的這個挑戰"},{"start":3107.631,"end":3120.185,"text":"所以我們就希望說既然我們已經要協助他們成立這個人工智慧跟遠距醫療中心這是一個很大的計畫可是這計畫能不能延續能不能推行其實有些挑戰我們必須要先去克服那再來還有像柏林我們這次也協助他們推行"},{"start":3122.588,"end":3127.892,"text":"一種國會數位化轉型計畫可是我們也知道說像帛琉它的這個數位基礎設施是非常落後的那也缺乏這個穩定的網路跟這個設備的支持因為本席在去年的時候其實也去過一趟帛琉所以它這些的基礎建設其實真的是不足那再來還有技術人員"},{"start":3142.322,"end":3163.392,"text":"這方面技術人才方面也是嚴重的缺乏影響了整個我們是比較擔心會影響我們整個計劃的推進跟長期的這個效應像這個部分的話我們的有前期有沒有什麼一些計劃可以先協助呢在進入真正推動這個計劃之前我們有沒有一些前期的這個比如說它基礎建設的這部分我們先來協助像我們有沒有這些這方面的計劃呢"},{"start":3164.532,"end":3189.211,"text":"其實跟委員說明這一次總統的出訪我們定位在繁榮南島智慧永續智慧就是把數位科技導入那我們的榮邦計畫有一項就是可信賴的網路跟數位治理不管是政府的機構或者是他們像這些醫療還有相關的產業其實都可以導入未來的這個數位的科技那也強調數位的韌性那在"},{"start":3192.273,"end":3217.739,"text":"因此硬體有了之後其實最重要的是軟體以前是蓋了一些大樓但是軟體才要進入我們現在是其實整合先設計好所以硬體軟體還有未來人才那建構的大數據特別是AI的應用其實這些國家不大可是它大量的像比如說以馬薩爾群島來講它八成的人都有去看診的資料這個是不得了的大數據好好的幫它運用到智慧醫療它會變成一個典範"},{"start":3219.699,"end":3238.453,"text":"那以這個馬紹爾群島來講剛剛委員提到那醫護人員訓練了回去之後因為薪資低所以我們現在的榮邦計畫會去把它調高我們對薪資的補助我覺得它是大概四五萬人以這樣的一個區域我們整合性的來去幫他規劃"},{"start":3239.734,"end":3266.585,"text":"然後帶著他一起做所以這一次我們不是說他要什麼我們給不給而是我們整合各種的一個設計包括軟硬體這個把台灣的我們這幾年發展的這些數位解決智慧解決方案包括除了數位科技以外包括淨零轉型綠色的能源跟觀光所以會讓他們感受到我們是跟他站在一起"},{"start":3267.225,"end":3290.318,"text":"要把它發展他們的國家找到一條最適合的道路OK 我是期望外交部能夠進一步強化向後續的推動的機制就像剛剛我們所提到我們結合各方面多邊的資源讓台灣在國際社會當中我們不單單是展現實力我們還是要展現我們的價值好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝羅美玲委員"},{"start":3295.97,"end":3298.731,"text":"接下來我們請王逸川委員上台質詢主席我們請外交部林部長我請部長部長 委員好這個看這個頭螢幕上這幾個字可不可以請部長唸一下"},{"start":3327.17,"end":3353.207,"text":"世界台灣 台灣世界好台灣世界好是什麼意思讓世界看見台灣世界好就是最好啦很讚的就對了好到不知道要怎麼說所以台灣世界好這個應該也是我們國人期待的目標啦部長你擔任過無任所大使嘛是無任所大使那幾年你都在做什麼"},{"start":3354.232,"end":3381.819,"text":"我主要是在推動數位新南向就是我們有新南向政策我們希望把它升級到其實用數位科技來推動主要是以東南亞跟南亞國家當然南太平洋地區也在內所以我出版了一些書你不要一天到晚推薦你的書那個就是實踐的結果要把它理論化"},{"start":3382.745,"end":3409.66,"text":"那你現在當這個外交部長你提出了一個名詞叫做總和外交那這個總和外交跟賴總統這個經濟日不落國大概也有大概這個相互呼應是那我們的外交體系當然就是一板一眼我每次到這個位置來的時候都覺得我們外交部來的官員喔 大家都"},{"start":3411.109,"end":3436.049,"text":"請教都很正式大家回答問題都一板一眼那除了傳統的這個外交體系之外我想請問部長我們接下來除了這一個傳統的外交體制我們怎麼看待譬如說世界台商會看待在全世界有很多的台灣會館我們有很多的台灣同鄉會"},{"start":3438.21,"end":3455.31,"text":"很多學校有台灣同學會那這些台美人或者是台美人的第二代、第三代他們遍佈在全世界遍佈在美國、在日本那外交部跟這一些單位之間的關係"},{"start":3457.625,"end":3475.478,"text":"部長你會怎麼設定是 如委員講 因為以前我們外交部比較重視在這個政務啦那反而是僑務是僑委會 或者是可能涉及台商是經濟部那我們現在就是說總和外交就是說部部都是外交部 人的都是外交官"},{"start":3476.198,"end":3483.162,"text":"那我們要整合因為我們有很多外管比如說我這一次到美國去召開我們北美的區域匯報那每家地區就總共有16個管處那這麼大的能量它都有轄區"},{"start":3492.788,"end":3521.527,"text":"那我們有僑務委員我們有台商會其實這些人就是草根的力量他對美國的一個政策的形成影響很大我們不能只重視啊這個所謂的這個國會山莊或者是白宮在華府所以這個部分我們現在在推動就是subnational就是國家下面的這個比較是區地區的整合像川普啊他有很多支持這個MEGA的草根力量就他的條卡"},{"start":3522.828,"end":3537.136,"text":"很多其實不是在全國性它是在該州甚至城市下面所以您剛剛提的這一些就是我講的總和外交裡面除了我剛剛講的這個我們僑委會經濟部還包括其實很多的第二代的台美人"},{"start":3538.216,"end":3558.711,"text":"還有甚至是一些在文化工作上面的 這個也都應該整合起來變成一個總和外交的一個隊部長你知道實際上這些單位他們每年在辦他們的年會 辦他們的餐會 辦他們各式各樣的活動我們的外館啊 我們的外館都去做什麼你知道嗎"},{"start":3563.19,"end":3583.07,"text":"當然受邀就出席嘛所以喬委會過去是為主我們現在跟喬委會之間有密切的聯繫那我們也會把他列入KPI因為我參加過幾個啦我覺得那都很形式標準的SOP就是先放一段賴總統的影片"},{"start":3584.319,"end":3596.772,"text":"接下來呢我們駐外館的這個我不知道那個職稱叫什麼可能是叫處長或者是那他就會上台大概講個五分鐘的話然後就開始進行參會"},{"start":3598.676,"end":3624.381,"text":"那這些處長啊,我看他們也疲於奔命因為這些單位很多那每一場也都會有這些僑務委員參加可是我覺得太流於形式啦那既然要推動總和外交那這些單位的能量啊就是說我們在海外的這些外館啊不要都是人邀請,去那裡致詞去那裡吃飯,就沒有了"},{"start":3627.455,"end":3648.3,"text":"大家都很累,處長住洛杉磯的或是住舊金山的,很多會都會邀請他們嘛那他們去就是,我覺得好像都一直在應酬,不好應該是想辦法,看怎麼樣把剛剛包括部長提的,這些人,這些台灣人,一味就是很有影響力的"},{"start":3649.482,"end":3674.943,"text":"包括這道在選舉,我選舉期間期,美國在選舉期間期間,裡面也有人選議員選一個小鎮叫議員、市議員、議員,他也很熱情在參與他們美國的政治活動所以這個部分我想外館看要做什麼努力,請部長再回去拜託我們外館的同仁大家及時廣義看要怎麼樣來進行"},{"start":3677.056,"end":3687.457,"text":"那第二個這個課題是說啊當我們在做這個總和外交的時候啊部長你告訴我總和外交嘛阿明也你學的嘛"},{"start":3689.126,"end":3713.403,"text":"你2025年編多少事情,要做總的外交,還是觀光外交要到觀光署編,我們只是開一個會叫觀光外交,我們開一個會叫科技,開一個會叫文化,像吳斯亞委員也提到文化,跟外交要合在一起。社交部有沒有特別編了什麼樣的專案計畫,要來進行總合外交?"},{"start":3714.554,"end":3742.048,"text":"總和外交當然是一個政策的方向一個觀念或一套相關的作為我們因為預算是319億已經編列經過委員會已經送這個大會要討論我覺得在於不是說新增加預算當然涉及到的一些比如說我舉個例子像在日本大阪要辦世博"},{"start":3742.968,"end":3767.304,"text":"我們是上半年 下半年呢我們故宮在捷克有百件文物的展出過去就是單一活動 可能一個部會在處理那我們現在就提早跟跨部會來進行協調那整合所有的力量 讓那個活動的效益可以更大就像說去年的巴黎的奧運 文化奧運都在那裡所以我們讓它的外交效應極大化"},{"start":3768.064,"end":3788.172,"text":"那至於說雙邊啦 比如我們現在外交部的榮邦計畫裡面有一些是跟比如說我們涉及到的這些新人員跟探犬可能跟環境部我們就有雙邊委員會 有工作小組那觀光文化也都是這一些外交部到底是主動還是被動就是說你是要出來盜用這些事情"},{"start":3789.433,"end":3806.515,"text":"還是說這些單位他們遇到有外交上需要外交部協助你們跳進來還是怎麼樣其實我們因為外管就是外交部所以事情會來找外交部我們就是一個整合的窗口那與其各自為政我們不如變成一個平台"},{"start":3807.176,"end":3833.067,"text":"因為現在的一個效果就是外館有各個部會派的人啊各自可能他們各自向部本部去報告我們現在在第一線就整合在一起那現在行政院有經濟外交工作小組那我們又透過經濟外交跟龍幫計畫展開雙邊的就雙部會的委員會工作小組所以用這個方式啊我們雖然沒有去做組織改造也沒有增加太多預算但是把資源整合一起走出去好 這個很好"},{"start":3833.607,"end":3838.374,"text":"那最後一個就問2028的洛杉磯奧運,這叫外交部有關嗎?"},{"start":3841.768,"end":3860.984,"text":"這個很有關係因為我想除了教育部或是未來的運動部其實所有的出訪或是競賽外交部一定是在地在服務比如說我們去參加像世界衛生組織像是衛福部其實那個外交部外管很辛苦這樣聽起來你們都在配合在協助在配合在協助"},{"start":3866.508,"end":3893.223,"text":"我是建議這樣啦 就是說這個2028洛杉磯奧運喔我們在洛杉磯有很多台僑啦 台美人啦 台美青年啦包括台灣會 同鄉會 商會 台商會都很多主動啦 主動喔 因為你每次出國去嘛 去到這裡洛杉磯 這裡台灣會館 這裡好朋友大家參上一下看外交部怎麼在洛杉磯奧運的時候 要有一個主要的角色"},{"start":3894.584,"end":3898.865,"text":"讓我們這個選手去到洛杉磯比賽的時候就類似像這次去巴黎嘛對吳志忠 次長 以前在那裡也去創一個活動中心給我們的人最高檔的他們的廚師嘛 賭榜嘛像這種東西 洛杉磯的橋界啊他們很想要外交部支持一下 他們就開始辦了他們就開始去協助"},{"start":3920.131,"end":3922.973,"text":"做這些在地的協助工作,需要國家跟他們說,好,2028年,台美青年,二代、三代,所有的主管,包括有的去旅館的、去飯店的、去餐廳的、去蝦蝦的,有的做店長的"},{"start":3940.963,"end":3966.654,"text":"這一些人全部整合起來我想會讓我們2028的這種洛杉磯奧運的台灣代表隊去到那裡就比賽的成績也會更好我希望外交部在這件事情上主動啦主動不要等那個體育署還是臨港的運動部來接外交部說哇這不通外交部幫我們倒三天這樣這個好過就完全不一樣了好我們就主動集齊啦因為聽台灣"},{"start":3969.709,"end":3993.71,"text":"這個大家都看得到今年的巴黎奧運還有我們這個包括棒球12強運動是最能夠團結人民最能夠走向國際所以我們會把2028洛杉磯奧運當作外交部的事當作我們台灣人所有包括跨部會的事情一起來推動巴黎奧運其實我上任的時候就成立一個小組"},{"start":3994.511,"end":4010.558,"text":"包括宣傳面包括所有的接待還有以及這個涉及到的應變那這個是我們可以看很好的一個例子我們會在巴黎奧運的基礎上讓洛杉磯的這個奧運讓聽台灣更響亮好 部長加油好 一起加油謝謝王益川委員部長請回接下來我們請黃仁委員上台質詢"},{"start":4029.266,"end":4031.978,"text":"有請李部長有請部長"},{"start":4043.797,"end":4067.148,"text":"針對這個南島這個共同體在這一次的賴總統首次出訪到這個選擇我國南太平洋的三個邦交國那當然這個三個邦交國就是馬紹爾、秦桃跟土瓦魯跟帛琉他的這個主軸就是智慧永續是民主永續和邦誼永續那過去"},{"start":4070.342,"end":4097.894,"text":"中共近年來在南太平洋實力越來越重目標不只是挖角我國的邦交國那更大的目的是在取代美國和澳大利亞對南太平洋島國的影響力尤其在2021年索羅門群島發生的暴亂後索羅門群島政府於2022年和中共簽署了一份"},{"start":4098.874,"end":4121.064,"text":"關於允許中國派遣武警或軍隊協助維持秩序的協議讓澳大利亞和美國倍感的壓力那因此本席認為賴總統這一次的出訪選擇在南太平洋的正確的決定那請問一下"},{"start":4122.588,"end":4147.74,"text":"部長這一次總統本次出訪有沒有和南太平洋三友邦就南島共同體的想法交換意見有沒有是確實從去年初因為諾魯跟我們斷交之後我想我們積極的來做總和外交那把三個友邦結合起來點線面"},{"start":4149.321,"end":4166.473,"text":"另外我們有設處的地方比如說像斐濟它也是個近處南太平洋的門戶所以我們有一個區域的一個所謂的到跨越第一島鏈到第二甚至第三島鏈這區域的一個整個政策那也確實"},{"start":4167.774,"end":4187.99,"text":"在Solomon Island跟中國簽了安全的協定他們把一些武警 事實上是軍人禁住之後引起了這些民主國家大家的關注所以包括最近澳大利亞"},{"start":4193.686,"end":4220.404,"text":"就是南泰的國家簽訂一些安全的協定這個是我們可以看到包括跟諾魯就是希望不要讓中共的力量進來所以我們就有角色因為他們是所以我剛剛提到就是說中共的使力越來越重那當然今天賴總統選擇了南泰培養的一個出訪是正確的那只是有一點比較有一點缺失的地方可惜的地方是什麼"},{"start":4221.264,"end":4236.779,"text":"是在過去本席在一年當中我一直提到就是希望能夠重視原民外交那當時你也非常的支持希望能夠推派無認所的"},{"start":4237.319,"end":4261.413,"text":"原住民的這些無認署大使包含我們在前任的吳釗燮也都同意我的想法可是在這一次的出訪賴總統並沒有好好的把原民外交尤其是南太平洋的這樣的一個島國做一個連結性因為我們在過去我們看一看"},{"start":4262.233,"end":4287.493,"text":"在南島嶼系的這樣的一個南太平洋北太平洋這樣子加起來原住民的這個部分就將近兩億多的人口那沒有沒有實力的就是說在落實嚴防對岸發動外交的攻勢在地圖把起尤其台灣和南太平洋在太平洋島國最大的共同性就是我們都是南太平洋的島嶼那當然"},{"start":4290.848,"end":4309.876,"text":"本席認為南安島共同體是價值外銷真正的體現是這樣的想法也獲得部長跟我們之前的吳釗燮的支持但很可惜在這一次賴總統在出訪南太平洋似乎不太重視本席的這種想法"},{"start":4310.956,"end":4332.551,"text":"我跟各位說明我們是有邀請這個園民會就是曾志勇主委都有隨團那當然就是無人鎖大使方面我們是我想包括像在夏威夷的這個太平洋的這個藝術節的活動或我們在太平洋島國論壇還有相關的未來的"},{"start":4336.474,"end":4365.797,"text":"就是原住民的外交我們會來加強在無論所大使方面的角色對我希望能夠這個部分因為我們現在每曠夜下中共無所不用其極的要對我們整個國際的邦交裡面不斷的要想盡辦法要挖角但是我們如何然後打下更好的基礎然後鞏固我們的邦交這個也是要借用原民外交在南東語系的民族裡面能夠擴展我們的一些外交的基礎"},{"start":4366.557,"end":4395.515,"text":"所以這個是我一直提醒部長好我們再來加強好那第二個是中共攻台這個美國先摧毀台積電那這個就是過去川普在任用我們副部長在過去第一任任期的時候國防部副部長助理部長這也顯示對我們的科博級的重視"},{"start":4396.475,"end":4423.326,"text":"現在任命他為國防部的次長那當然這個不管在他的推特不管是在對外都已經很顯示說如果中共要攻打台灣那就先攻打我們台灣本土的台積電的這個經驗場那這樣的一個說辭來講的話對我們整個對我們整個來講是不是要拿我們台灣做一個籌碼"},{"start":4425.08,"end":4449.531,"text":"那作為他們整個跟中共之間的一些立場部長你來說明一下我想首先台灣要展現就是防衛的決心那我們當然會捍衛包括台積電的安全這個不容其他國家來決定那我想美國的這個"},{"start":4452.017,"end":4477.426,"text":"人會關心一方面是希望我們也能夠就是有這個決心捍衛台灣那因為這個晶片是涉及到供應鏈是全球性的這不是單獨的台灣的問題或兩岸的問題這是世界的問題所以我現在請教一下部長你個人或我們的政府會同意中共攻台就摧毀台積電嗎當然是絕不同意"},{"start":4481.285,"end":4488.329,"text":"其實這個柯博奇還有美國陸軍戰爭學院在期刊裡面就曾經有在論文認為美國與台灣"},{"start":4493.128,"end":4510.795,"text":"應採取焦土的政策以半導體產業為籌碼威脅中國大陸如果中共攻台摧毀台積電破壞中國的晶片供應那部長犧牲台積電焦土台灣是否成為川普"},{"start":4511.475,"end":4535.096,"text":"政府的一些政策那本身認為可能性非常的大就算不是川普政府的核心策略那也絕對是在政策上的選項選項之一所以我想請教部長你認為這個可能性會不會發生還是可能會發生我是認為"},{"start":4537.196,"end":4553.814,"text":"不會發生啦因為當然個人在平常講的話跟他作為一個政府的代表我想這個他們當時的關係他是一個民間人士他現在是個政府官員我們跟美國之間的溝通也很順暢那這個半導體供應鏈是牽一髮動全身"},{"start":4559.661,"end":4582.841,"text":"這個絕對不會只有在台灣受影響我想連在美國、日本、歐洲這些都會連帶受影響所以這一點我想我們不可能去犧牲台灣的一個半導體的產業但是台灣的半導體產業怎麼樣去做全球佈局因應所謂的中國加一甚至台灣加一我們要做到台灣加N"},{"start":4584.102,"end":4600.819,"text":"所以我是覺得化被動為主動我們是台灣plus美國 台灣plus日本 台灣plus歐盟讓我們的供應鏈韌性更強那我們就更安全這個經濟安全也是現在我想在美中抗衡裡面"},{"start":4601.64,"end":4623.412,"text":"涉及到的供應鏈韌性這一點我們已經跟包括美日韓之間也有FAT4又有這個所謂晶片四國的一個溝通的一個協調的機制所以這不是單獨的涉及到兩岸問題而已這是一個世界的問題兩件事除了鞏固我們的邦交國之外"},{"start":4624.369,"end":4650.346,"text":"那當然台積電是我們復古神山的一個最大最大能夠讓全球裡面都知道台灣就是台積電這就是一個概念那當然我們極力外交部的責任重大就在於邦交如何發揮它的最大的功效這是本席提醒部長一下好 謝謝謝謝黃仁委員"},{"start":4655.049,"end":4660.373,"text":"部長請回接下來我們請沈博洋委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請部長謝謝請您部長"},{"start":4681.269,"end":4699.673,"text":"部長好委員好前陣子其實出訪很多總統還有向部長都有出訪但是立法院剛好蠻多事情的一直沒有什麼機會來問這個題目所以今天剛好來問這一題我們可以看到當地的媒體都算是非常熱烈的報導這幾次的出訪不管是部長的還是總統的出訪"},{"start":4703.434,"end":4722.354,"text":"那我這邊有幾個小問題就是說第一個就是我們的新聞一直在去討論說這個中國出動這些基建來做一些騷擾之類的那當然這個我覺得會有一點框架上的問題就是在於說他們一直以來都在散播說因為今天部長出去或者今天總統出去"},{"start":4722.814,"end":4747.971,"text":"所以中國這個軍演的這個層級會提高但是我看國外智庫的報導大部分都是在提說他們其實只是拿這個當作是一個藉口而已他比較大的一個原因反而是因為這個川普要上任了他們想要去測試這一個美國的底線什麼等等之類的因為中國有他自己的一些戰略上的考量那針對這一點目前外交部的這個澄清做得如何"},{"start":4748.755,"end":4775.754,"text":"是其實在這次總統出訪前後我們跟友邦當然包括美國都有很好的溝通一起來做應處那我們也注意到雖然中共沒有發動所謂的聯合力建的2024C可是它事實上也有一些新的發展它的基建的數量另外就是在我們台灣的東岸用反聚酯它想要形成一個新常態"},{"start":4776.534,"end":4786.32,"text":"而且在這個前後他對日韓菲律賓也展開了很這個壓迫性的進入他們的防空識別區或是中俄的這個飛機的一個聯合的這個演習等那這些新常態"},{"start":4795.605,"end":4809.394,"text":"引起世界的這個大家的關注而我們當然出訪是順利成功是目標以外我們也密切的國安系統也都在這個時候隨時在做很多的應變"},{"start":4811.575,"end":4834.606,"text":"那因此我們也發現這個模式我們也跟友邦以外我們也跟在台的駐台使節來做公共訊息的說明讓大家一起來應處這個新的中共的一個所謂的灰色作戰或者是它混合戰"},{"start":4835.566,"end":4853.598,"text":"那在這個美國政府交接的期間固然北京也想去測試但是當然也怕這個有時候擦槍走火這個時候大家對於川普總統要上任我想都還是密切觀察中所以以目前這個情勢來講外界對台灣在這一次出訪"},{"start":4854.558,"end":4876.909,"text":"我們的這個表現也都是予以肯定也覺得說我們是一個維持台海和平穩定的很正面的力量反而中共是一個麻煩製造者對 我感謝部長這樣的回答因為其實中國一直想要定調就是我們每次的出訪就是一種挑釁那我們當然不接受這樣的一個框架因為對他來講他有約旦的談話也是挑釁"},{"start":4880.271,"end":4896.591,"text":"就職的這個演講也是挑釁你的出訪也是挑釁但他其實在這每一個時間點他都有自己想要做的事情我每年的四月跟九月他就是喜歡做軍演嘛因為是海象也比較平穩的時候所以他就會用我們當時的一些做法談話然後說你這就是挑釁"},{"start":4897.872,"end":4909.579,"text":"不過我跟委員說明我們當然一方面知道他有認知作戰或者是這種大外宣的效果不過我們也密切注意他會不會由訊轉演 由演轉戰"},{"start":4912.601,"end":4939.676,"text":"因為這個有時候也是一線之間那但是我們看到這次包括美國航母的部署三艘航母在我們這個周邊地區那中共當然以新的形態他沒有出動航母可是他基建增加那而且時間也相當的長所以我們也跟包括印太司令部我想跟這個第一島鏈所有理念相近國家就這一點上面我們密切的在交流以作為未來這個"},{"start":4941.977,"end":4959.482,"text":"能夠應變的一個參考好那謝謝部長那我再問下一個問題就是說我有看到外交部來回應就是說過境美國這件事情那這個事實我看大概很多人都會問所以我不針對這個事實我比較想問的一個問題就是說因為這一件事情跟中國的打壓是有關係的"},{"start":4960.482,"end":4981.429,"text":"我們今天就是說中國在外交上面本來就會打壓我們所以外交部在這個方面有時候會去回應中國的問題但有時候會是陸委會在回應那這一次我看到這一次就是以外交部的新聞稿算是蠻大程度反而是在回應中國的問題那這個我覺得沒什麼不好我只是想問說像這種事情目前跟陸委會的分工是要怎麼做"},{"start":4983.24,"end":5000.641,"text":"一到中國的事務當然以陸委會而主可是中國不只是兩岸關係還是一個區域甚至全球的關係所以這方面因為涉及到的軍演已經是區域性的所以我們也會試他們的這個動作我們會反應比如說我們外交部來發言當然是"},{"start":5002.443,"end":5029.224,"text":"我想以這個比如說這個內容來講這個外交部強調中華民國是主權國家中華民國台灣和中華人民共和國互不隸屬等等其實這個也都有他的意涵在裡面啦升高到 我不想說我們由外交部出面的時候就是代表我們政府的一個態度那陸委會平常當然在兩岸事務上他是主政的單位不過在國際關係上我們是密切的溝通協調跟分工合作"},{"start":5029.864,"end":5044.968,"text":"對 我就不知道說得很好就是說這是涉及主權問題啦所以說今天跟主權有關的當然跟我們外交部會是密切相關一定要站出來講話那陸委會可能很多有時候是跟一些交流啊文化交流啊等等相關的他們要做一些風險上的控管嘛因為對方要用"},{"start":5045.647,"end":5074.647,"text":"這個交流來做統戰陸委會要怎麼去控管要怎麼去做審查這可能是陸委會的業務但是因為剛剛部長有提到像軍演像今天可能軍演跟區域安全有關跟主權有關這時候外交部會出來說但我發現有一個小小的一個奇怪的地方就是像這個我們在外交部上面的網站有一個叫做中國阻撓我國際空間勢力我覺得這個完全符合剛剛部長在講的但是像112年大概有四則"},{"start":5075.727,"end":5101.064,"text":"那113年不知道為什麼只有這一則就是說照理說像這一次剛剛其實前面那一張就是這一個外交部回應的其實跟這個算是密切相關吧因為他們可能也可能會發動歷屆相關的軍演我的感覺好像這一個的事件是符合可以放在這一個113年的這個裡面的公告啦但不知道為什麼這個一直停在1月是因為後來沒有再更新還是說是什麼樣的理由呢"},{"start":5101.984,"end":5118.638,"text":"這個是統計上可能怎麼去分類那我們應該是有很多比如說涉及到中共阻撓我們在國際參與上啦或者是扭曲2758號決議或者是涉及到就是對於像比如最近這個中日之間外長"},{"start":5120.859,"end":5138.906,"text":"的會談那個內容之前這個這個外交部長的時候是涉及到所謂一中的問題這次涉及到這個所謂的歷史教科書的問題那這些都是希望壓縮我們台灣的國際空間而我們也都有反應就是說"},{"start":5140.467,"end":5155.375,"text":"中共在利用每一次的他們的國際的活動或是簽訂的這個聲明就會矮化台灣會扭曲很多解釋而這影響我們國際空間的參與所以我想應該只是這個標題我也請同仁在"},{"start":5158.536,"end":5173.898,"text":"整理一下之後跟委員報告因為是我們公佈的次數應該是相當多對 因為我感覺113年反而事件更多嘛對所以照理說應該會有因為112年大概四五折啦所以113年我感覺五六折應該也跑不掉但不知道為什麼它停在1月所以這個可能再請同仁去關注一下好"},{"start":5174.258,"end":5194.664,"text":"我們也要多注意就是公共訊息我也請同仁要注意所以我們自己發新聞或其他的有一些就是這方面的統計新的勢力也應該讓廣為周知就公共訊息的傳播非常重要對 因為我看粉專其實都有在更新這一類的訊息我在說官網是不是沒有同步對"},{"start":5196.065,"end":5219.725,"text":"接下來就是因為今天最主要還有問二軌我剛剛都在問一軌比較多那二軌這個方面我們是已經有提醒過這個僑委會相關的事件譬如說像這個過境美國這個剛剛外交部也發過相關的聲明但是反過來中國也聯合了一堆相關的協會發了一個聲明在左邊這邊它發在世界日報上面那裡面很多協會看起來的名稱其實非常非常的中性"},{"start":5220.885,"end":5242.51,"text":"像我們這一次去馬來西亞我也有去結果我也被點名了中國不希望我參加但總之他們就禁止我們現場去放國歌就是說在惡鬼外交上面中國的打壓當然是不遺餘力目前來講我知道僑委會有做一些事情外交部對於這種打壓目前的做法是什麼"},{"start":5244.957,"end":5259.828,"text":"其實中共它沒什麼一軌二軌它都是同一軌啦它沒有公民社會嘛民主的 自由的 人權的這樣一個集會結社的自由那它動員啦其實是反效果我想我們總統過境啦"},{"start":5262.37,"end":5284.2,"text":"最明顯的就是蔡總統過境紐約的時候他們八起的抗議都還付錢而且涉及到一些違法所以現在美國也是在偵辦也已經有破案那至於說在於就是我們的民間的或惡鬼的活動他們一樣會干擾那會打壓那如果是在一些"},{"start":5285.18,"end":5290.329,"text":"理念相近國家啦我們溝通完之後他們基本上都會就是"},{"start":5294.301,"end":5315.207,"text":"對外我想不會受中共的這個脅迫可是在東南亞國家就是這個比較明顯像之前的越南最近的馬來西亞那我也非常感謝我們台商還有我們這些社團都還是很堅持但是能夠努力到什麼程度有時候就是會涉及到一些角力不過我想基本上走出去"},{"start":5316.227,"end":5336.079,"text":"就是就有希望那中共的打壓有時候反而凸顯問題所以我們應該講說這個過程啊可以帶動我們總和外交走出去我們會全力的來支持這些惡鬼外交NGO外交 吃苦外交繼續啦用總和外交的方式就是全民啦 都走出去對 那部長講得很好我覺得說像他們這種動員常常是反效果"},{"start":5338.2,"end":5361.006,"text":"那既然它是反效果 我們應該把它放大應該讓大家知道這個反效果到底有多強我覺得讓海外的人知道說他們到底在做什麼事情我覺得這可能也是外交行動上面非常重要的一部分那我接下來本來因為時間到了本來還有一些民主基金會的問題不過我們兩個都在民主基金會所以這個我們就之後再問好了好的好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝沈博洋委員部長請回接下來我們請林楚瑩委員上台質詢"},{"start":5377.452,"end":5378.414,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請部長有請部長"},{"start":5388.51,"end":5412.236,"text":"部長新年快樂 辛苦了等一下如果有問到相關的這些我們的就是業務涉及的單位的長官或主管再請你們自動上台是這樣我想這個2025年對於外交來講可能面對的第一個問題當然就是這個川普即將上任那個我請部長先看一下這個是2024年11月16號的照片"},{"start":5415.897,"end":5429.404,"text":"當時是講拜登任其倒數那麼美日韓成立了三方的秘書處要確保這個所謂印太的韌性但是目前三張照片的三位本來以為只有拜登會換但是現在尹錫悅也被彈劾了然後石破茂是少數執政這三張2025年不知道是三換一還是可能三個全換"},{"start":5441.03,"end":5464.58,"text":"但是對我們來說這是一個非常非常值得關注的外交話題尤其是今天您講的這個報告就是有關於這個我們的二軌外交或者是元首外交那麼想要問一下就是我們知道接下來川普就任的部分立法院是由韓國瑜帶領了三黨的五位立法委員一起前往那麼對於"},{"start":5465.74,"end":5484.583,"text":"美台關係的部分那麼部長有如何來因應又怎麼來看我的題目很簡單就是美日韓的這三方秘書處其實他如果整合的好對於台灣絕對是正向的但是川普上任之後大家都擔心他現在不喜歡所謂的區域聯防"},{"start":5484.983,"end":5498.758,"text":"他喜歡彎百萬,喜歡所謂的你之前也講過的不是孤立主義是所謂的單獨的建立交情那如果是這樣你怎麼來看接下來美日韓三邊的關係的變動那對台灣的影響"},{"start":5501.047,"end":5523.322,"text":"是因為美日韓的關係是建立在條約或協定基礎上不管任何人執政他還是要以這個為基礎那當然政策的輕重反擊會有所調整這個也是每一位新總統在密切關注的那我相信有關於軍費啦或者是說這些相關的"},{"start":5525.683,"end":5550.095,"text":"就是區域的這個安全的議題應該會磨合出新的方式建立在既有的條約跟協定基礎上那台灣跟美國當然有台灣關係法這個六項保證這個做基礎我們在這個基礎上我想這一次的慶賀團一方面當然是總統就是這個請韓院長來擔任團長"},{"start":5554.537,"end":5579.507,"text":"那也邀請跨黨派的立法委員來參與那這個代表我們台灣就是外交是跨黨派那一方面也是要去感謝我想前任政府拜登政府他們卸任嘛他們對台的政策我想這四年來大家都可以看到不管安全啦還有經濟各方面但是跟怎麼樣去對接跟川普"},{"start":5580.068,"end":5586.866,"text":"這個新政府因為他現在人事也都陸續公佈我們也很密切注意他們的政策方向那這個"},{"start":5589.557,"end":5594.48,"text":"就是到美國去我想委員會發揮影響力我看到在美國的媒體當然報導不多但是有一個媒體竟然寫說因為我們派出了這個由立法院長韓國瑜所帶隊的這樣的一個超大型的慶賀團表示說是臺灣呈現出臺灣對於美國關係當中的不安那你怎麼來看"},{"start":5615.51,"end":5630.175,"text":"是不安還是重視?很重視所以是一個重視嘛所以台美的關係現在就是持續希望透過這一次包括立法委員的前往包括王定宇委員是我們國防外交委員會的召委他也是台美國會友好聯誼會的會長那麼希望能夠發揮作用那麼你怎麼來看包括"},{"start":5634.977,"end":5646.966,"text":"台韓跟台日個別的關係那麼你怎麼來看就是這三個三國之間的秘書處包括所謂他們的執政都可能出現變化的時候所造成的影響是"},{"start":5649.554,"end":5673.03,"text":"那麼其實不管台韓台日都是建立在我們跟美國尤其是印太戰略的關聯那這個拜登政府他有這個所謂的小多邊或把第一島鏈的國家從雙邊的到三邊到多邊甚至變成一個區域所謂的網格狀的這個安全的架構"},{"start":5673.931,"end":5695.125,"text":"那我剛剛講除了建立在條約協定或者是這些法的基礎上這之間怎麼去合作也有我們看到了這個Quad也有AUKUS也有這個Five Eyes也有這個G7非常非常多的這個機制那這些機制我們台灣當然是跟日本跟韓國沒有直接的"},{"start":5696.045,"end":5719.018,"text":"就是說安全上面的這些條約或協定可透過區域的交流合作我們也進行了非常多的可以說是互動那這方面當然美國是主要的基礎那新的川普政府的做法我們怎麼樣去在這個基礎上去連結美日韓這也是我們未來外交部的重點工作"},{"start":5719.278,"end":5746.252,"text":"好因為部長你看我這個題目一問三個司長都得要站到後面了所以顯然這是個相當重要的議題那麼因為今天我們所講的當然就是惡鬼外交是元首外交那麼在這個部分到底可以怎麼樣實質的發揮作用尤其是看到的是國際的變局那麼我們其實也要先提早做好準備或者是說展望2025有沒有預先在惡鬼外交部分做了哪些準備"},{"start":5749.668,"end":5755.016,"text":"其實我們跟美國蠻多是一軌或一軌半當然也有透過二軌一軌半是什麼意思"},{"start":5757.523,"end":5780.448,"text":"就是也有政府也有智庫或民間的代表因為交流大家分享其實很重要其實台灣為什麼重要是因為透過台灣是了解中國最佳的捷徑所以我們台灣整天被中國這個什麼混合戰 灰色作戰又什麼什麼這一些"},{"start":5786.149,"end":5800.594,"text":"大家都很好奇啊台灣是怎麼走過來的所以我們台灣的重要性啊有個真正的中共的打壓所以沒有台灣去跟他們交流他們很難去了解說那台灣在第一線在第一島鏈的最前線我們是怎麼樣能夠來抗中"},{"start":5803.435,"end":5827.711,"text":"所以是因為我們的角色很重要人家跟我們交流啦我講到抗中非常重要就是延續剛剛沈伯陽委員所說的喔當然如果穩定的一個友邦的關係包括友邦的政局或者是他們的領導的中心如果穩定的話對於我們政策的延續或是關係的維繫是比較容易的但是如果出現變化的時候包括現在美國由川普來當總統那麼川普2.0對於台灣的"},{"start":5833.395,"end":5835.976,"text":"美關係現在部長是保持審慎樂觀但是中國有沒有可能介入包括我們知道的韓國現在的韓國可能的接下來的在野黨的這個所謂總統的人選被認為在立場上是跟中國比較好的被媒體認為是親中的"},{"start":5853.88,"end":5875.612,"text":"那麼在石破茂少數執政底下那麼他現在他講的他要啟動的所謂的大聯合政府不只是自民黨跟公眾黨之外那他還會有其他的政的友黨進來的時候中國就可能有機會可以在裡面做干預那這個部分外交部有沒有注意到這樣的問題"},{"start":5877.512,"end":5891.701,"text":"我覺得是兩個層次一個是當然美國的角色他在這個對抗中國的威權擴張的時候他需要這些友盟啦大家一起至少做一些溝通嘛那一起能夠來因應"},{"start":5893.382,"end":5921.256,"text":"但是我們台灣其實在跟其他國家的這個城市上啊也有很多的交流包括我們第一島鏈我想不管日韓、菲律賓、澳紐因為什麼?因為我們都共同面對中共的擴張的壓力所以像最近從中共的這個海警啊他海警其實也是他解放軍嘛但是他做成了新常態不只是對台灣對周邊國家也是所以這個城市啊我們的惡鬼外交也非常的平凡那"},{"start":5923.547,"end":5939.792,"text":"另外一個就是很關鍵的是因為川普的即將就任對一些這些第一島鏈或印太地區的國家也有不確定性大家反而更要交流這個時機有時候反而是一個我們台灣就可以分享我們的經驗"},{"start":5941.112,"end":5952.558,"text":"那另外的方面就是說台灣跟美國的關係在川普總統我想他就職之後我們也都做好了準備他基本上是重商主義但是他主要是對於貿易的這個"},{"start":5958.821,"end":5983.776,"text":"這個逆差他很關注所以我們台灣跟美國的關係是一方面我們會去做好包括不管是投資採購或者是這一些有關經濟跟安全方面的一些對話可是我想同樣的中國他面對到怎麼去因應因為川普應該是上任之後會去對他在第一任的時候中國答應的一些採購或是其他的這些"},{"start":5985.497,"end":5994.819,"text":"會採取一些關稅的手段那我們當然密切關注這個就是屬於另外一個層次因為時間有限本席這一個題目其實我甚至於認為接下來也許國防外交委員會都必須要長期的來密切的關注這樣的國際政局的變化但是在二軌外交或是圓口外交上面慎防中共的滲透因為我們都知道中共在其他的國家面對跟台灣一樣的滲透其實也是著力甚深所以請"},{"start":6014.904,"end":6031.773,"text":"部長和外交部在這個部分也許2025年是一個非常需要重視的話題好 慢慢努力謝謝林楚瑜委員部長請回接下來我們請王定宇召委上台質詢好 謝謝林召委 麻煩部長"},{"start":6046.136,"end":6068.104,"text":"請林部長我今天準備的正題之前剛好我接到一個民眾剛過我們的海關進到台灣來他有個問題那你不用現在有答案我是說了解一下他說回台灣的時候以前都會聽到歡迎歸國"},{"start":6070.287,"end":6089.244,"text":"那個好像被改掉了然後呢自動通關的語音呢變得好像中國腔調一樣是不是我們買的雞籽罐的東西裡面的sourcing出了問題我不確定因為這是民眾剛才我在上台前接到的申請我讓外交部的同仁了解一下查看看因為以前回到台灣聽到歡迎歸國"},{"start":6090.565,"end":6111.632,"text":"還蠻好的然後我覺得腔調因為來到台灣是我們國家的門面我們來跟淘機還有移民署還有海關我們現在很多漁業有一段時間是out-sourcing到印度那個腔就會像印度腔我現在不曉得是不是有out-sourcing或者它裡面灌的東西出問題麻煩你了解一下那我回來問第一個題目在"},{"start":6113.052,"end":6129.794,"text":"我們之前跟美方的各級的政要包含州長包含跟甚至於是美國參眾議會的重量級的參眾議員兩黨都有都有提到這一個避免雙重科稅的立法當時得到的答案"},{"start":6130.695,"end":6143.231,"text":"都在國會重量級的意見領袖都說這個他們認為該做在台灣跟美國的投資者避免雙重瞌睡對投資有益所以這個是對台灣對美國都有好處的"},{"start":6146.235,"end":6166.357,"text":"那當時說因為正在他們在總統大選所以搞不好選舉結束之後這一屆期因為他們快到期了屆期前能不能完成所以我第一個先請教部長避免雙重科稅這件事情對台灣來講有什麼效益很重要因為在遊說這個嘛總是要有效益嗎"},{"start":6168.154,"end":6192.541,"text":"因為我想投資跟貿易是連動的以台積電去投資周邊的供應鏈要去這麼多的投資如果有雙重瞌睡我想這個一定會影響到美國去投資所以這對美國有不利對台灣來講我們要雙重瞌睡當然也是很不利所以沒有反對的意見現在是說本來要走的路徑因為從眾議院到參議院"},{"start":6195.142,"end":6224.242,"text":"但是因為選舉的關係或者現在因為會期嘛這個法案要另外提這一屆結束的話因為他們眾議院就兩年一次就要全部重來耶對所以有沒有可能在因為這個對我們在墨西哥北部我上次看到統計是大概350家製造業者其實是有影響的對於投資美國甚至於我們我們在海外佈局經商的台商也是有影響的因為那個稅率很高"},{"start":6225.343,"end":6243.917,"text":"你估計目前的進度有沒有可能在這個會期把它完成現在就是說這個新的會期啦如果開始他們是不是用所謂的快速的那個管道最後一個MegaPage他們如果同意的話其實是可以啟動就是說算是比較是綠色通"},{"start":6247.079,"end":6266.849,"text":"我們現在接觸的參眾院的兩院是有國會議員有這個提議啦9月到11月去了解起來有部分的共和黨的參議員有一點意見可是他本身州的州長來到台灣我們溝通之後他回去說那是他的body body回去溝通一下所以目前看起來反對意見不多而且共識很高"},{"start":6267.749,"end":6287.724,"text":"對美國甚至於對川普來講增加美國就業機會也是有幫助對台灣證明我們跟美國之間的重要夥伴關係其實它也有外交政治上的利益所以是不是部長或編寫師到底這一個避免雙重瞌睡目前它真正的狀況進度有沒有可能在這一屆的美國國會完成立法"},{"start":6293.391,"end":6304.286,"text":"很有機會啊因為大家都知道他的重要性跟急迫性嘛那現在就是因為新的政府開始包括國會開議能不能用比較最簡"},{"start":6306.206,"end":6327.956,"text":"變的程序去讓參眾兩院能夠快速來審查有放開那個快速立法律社通關的有這個提議當然還要看所以我們覺得看起來沒有反對的意見就是怎麼樣去做立法程序我們現在lobby的工作做得怎麼樣"},{"start":6329.144,"end":6352.419,"text":"我看到的電報或者是我本身的接觸沒有反對的意見那也都應該是越快越好所以國長跟北美司長有信心來 北美司長這是別國在決定進度我們不能隨便有信心就是我們的理解是目前這個案子還是有兩黨跨黨派的一個支持的共識所以在這個新一屆的國會開議之後我們一定是你這樣又跑到下一屆重新重來了"},{"start":6352.919,"end":6377.597,"text":"因為這一屆的那個已經結束了所以一定是下一屆1月份開始開議之後我們很怕有時候到下一屆又開始丟一些新的丟了一些條文什麼的然後又開始討論然後兩年又到了目前都有積極的跟兩黨的議員在溝通那目前看起來這個支持也都還是在這邊的這個案子過的話其實對我們外交部長來講你的工具箱裡面多了一個工具"},{"start":6378.678,"end":6404.107,"text":"而且對川普的政策上來講兩邊其實是互利的那另外我們跟美方簽的BTA就是台美這個21世紀貿易倡議這個BTA就外交部的評估因為川普很不喜歡FTA他連WHO都想退出了這一個從TIFA到美台21世紀的貿易倡議所謂的BTA會不會有變數"},{"start":6409.372,"end":6423.664,"text":"因為它這個是美台21世紀貿易倡議它有12項它是分主要三個階段那個階段已經通過First Agreement那第二階段事實上三家一個項目也談得差不多其中只有一個項目當時還有一點就是還要再協商"},{"start":6429.71,"end":6442.002,"text":"至於說新的總統上任他對這個事情的看法他的USTR還有相關人事的佈局我們大概也有一定的判斷都是友善不過他的agenda是不是放在前面因為這裡面還沒有涉及到市場准錄直接的關稅的問題BGA還沒有碰到所謂的關稅"},{"start":6451.511,"end":6473.632,"text":"所以這個就是一個去健全化一個比較全面的經濟的一個合作的架構我這樣詮釋對不對這一個BTA台美之間的BTA目前已經有了大概沒有什麼變化但是想要再往前還要往前進一步還有待觀察對這樣詮釋對啦因為我看到但是我的意思是說我們在拜登政府內已經談到第二階段"},{"start":6474.672,"end":6499.63,"text":"除了一項還需要最後的協商其他已經都有共識那因為行政部門雖然是總統是新的這個他的政策的Priority或Agenda我們還要再瞭解以外但基本上大家對於台美之間這個把21世紀貿易倡議來推動是有共識只是說這個會拖多久政府上任之後三個大項一個是國土安全部對邊境的管理"},{"start":6500.47,"end":6514.478,"text":"一個是對外外交的政策要強化夥伴自我保衛的能力的責任第三個就是經貿經貿是他在選舉當中非常非常重要的政策而這個經貿一個不小心"},{"start":6517.338,"end":6531.594,"text":"有可能變保護主義一個不小心可能會讓全球這個recession會提早來所以這個我會提醒因為你現在講的是統合外交經貿跟外交其實這要一起看所以我問下一個有關呂宋經濟狼帶"},{"start":6533.696,"end":6559.551,"text":"呂宋經濟狼帶我聽部長提了幾次經濟部也提了幾次可是裡面有兩個我坦白講重中之重一個是美國政府一個是日本政府美日政府跟小馬可市政府在呂宋島不管是四個軍事基地不管是港口的建設不管是造船業的進駐或者台灣相關的不管是石化業"},{"start":6561.713,"end":6566.036,"text":"發電的能源業或者是比較低階的半導體業這整塊餅"},{"start":6569.208,"end":6596.479,"text":"呂宋經濟狼帶其實這兩個captain很重要可是我們現在面臨的是石破內閣換新的內閣換新的內閣了而且他是一個minority算是少數內閣然後呢川普政府取代拜登政權也更迭了所以我必須請教部長有關呂宋經濟狼帶就你們目前的評估是為民還是繼續"},{"start":6598.175,"end":6622.79,"text":"還是有可能這個要Drop it 要丟掉了它是這樣子 是在G7的架構下因為要對抗一帶一路嘛那這個由美日針對菲律賓有這個所謂旅送經濟狼帶的一個計畫那包括投資 還有一些建設那我們不是G7但是我們認為說可以以這個為基礎台灣可以扮演一些角色"},{"start":6623.81,"end":6651.719,"text":"這個是平行可是至於台灣人們參加呂宋經濟總監具體的計畫這要case by case來看也要對我們有利嘛我們能夠貢獻的當然那應該說那個架構是在的那項目也已經他們已經在形成其實從今年初到現在他們呂宋島的軍事基地跟台海安全跟巴士海峽控管息息相關對呂宋經濟狼帶所要發展的產業跟台灣息息相關所以跟台灣"},{"start":6652.699,"end":6680.958,"text":"坦白講 這個比IPEF重要 比IPEF重要它比較具體那這麼具體的東西的狀況下如果因為我們重要的民主盟友內部的發生變化這個案子走不下去的話我覺得我們外交部跟經貿部門有責任要去了解這是兩個層次 我跟委員講一個是當然美日非的層次嘛 旅眾經濟狼帶但是台非也可以形成經濟狼帶尤其是我們的大南方計畫現在又有大西股"},{"start":6682.879,"end":6684.161,"text":"我們跟菲律賓之間的合作有風險"},{"start":6698.666,"end":6717.174,"text":"他的總統是一任的換了總統之後政策不延續投資跟相關的保障會有什麼樣的情形所以透過多邊的特別是美日這樣的G7強國建構的架構簽的合約對我們台商對我們台灣政府來講"},{"start":6718.362,"end":6744.217,"text":"保障的程度會比較高啦台非要發展當然有另外一條路可以走所以因為我時間到了我特別提醒不過我也跟委員補充說明我們台美之間也有EPPD台美經濟這個這個夥伴的對話那也就是針對第三國那我想台美之間也都認為跟菲律賓合作是我們的重點對因為這幾個國家第一島鏈國家現在政治上都有一些新局面美國"},{"start":6746.448,"end":6769.283,"text":"也有一些新局面其實歐盟也有一些政權更迭的情形所以當我們台灣在發展對外經貿外交的時候這些更迭的情形要很審慎仔細的去觀察而且要建立多層次的而不是只依靠一個方向否則一旦沒有就沒有了那我們可能努力了三五年的東西瞬間化為泡影這個提醒外交部那我們希望後續"},{"start":6770.163,"end":6779.857,"text":"也許這個我們可以做個專案報告了好不好好 謝謝現在行政院經濟外交工作小組也有針對這部分在進行好 謝謝謝謝王定宇 趙偉謝謝部長"},{"start":6798.988,"end":6805.602,"text":"好 現在請林益君召委上台質詢謝謝主席有請林部長請林部長"},{"start":6816.96,"end":6834.198,"text":"部長新年快樂先請教部長一個政治上面的問題你覺得現在你比較喜歡為國家拚外交當外交部長還是比較喜歡回去台中當台中市長還是你有比較屬意適合台中市的人選呢台中市我已經當過了"},{"start":6835.8,"end":6860.644,"text":"對 因為我現在是看新聞上面好像說你好像也有意願想要再回去當台中市長是不是 我沒有聽說呢好啦 現在請問這一年來其實大家都不看好你這個一個外交門外和擔任外交部長但是從你剛才的書面報告裡面和口頭報告上所以部長你覺得你自己在一年來你對外交你自己表現你打幾分呢"},{"start":6861.69,"end":6882.181,"text":"我不給自己打分數啦 只有人民跟我的長官可以打分數不過我的同仁齁 我聽到的啦 士氣現在還蠻高的啦因為我們 當然我們對於外交同仁的怎麼樣去讓他們發揮工作環境啦 我們有一些改善以外部長你這樣有點謙虛 你這樣是連分數都不敢為自己打齁"},{"start":6884.856,"end":6894.941,"text":"對 因為我才剛上任 這個算是如果跑馬拉松 這個只是前面剛起跑而已啊所以不能現在打分數那你覺得你90分有沒有到"},{"start":6896.141,"end":6925.069,"text":"你覺得你的努力你沒有盡興啊我覺得還沒有我說能夠打分數因為其實外交也是累積的啦也是要大家所有的各方面來努力但是我意思說有幾個戰役啊我跟委員分享比如說我們在PIV就是太平洋島國論壇老共要把我們排除嘛我們參加了你看包括這個南非他要我們簽管那我們還是先挺住了其實今年APEC"},{"start":6926.363,"end":6947.29,"text":"其實中共為了要申辦2026它已經就是說用盡各種方法想法我們邊緣化但是我們還是把它拉到APEC來做對等的談判所以我認為外交是點點滴滴那當然邦交國我大概都走了一趟我們12個邦交國怎麼樣去固邦 融邦 拓邦"},{"start":6948.49,"end":6973.744,"text":"我們跟大國的關係 特別是我們台美還有日本 歐盟之間的關係特別像在2758號決議 現在包括歐洲的議會還有各國的國會也都通過美國的國務院也有很清楚的試點說明可以說賴總統上任之後他標舉的所謂的價值外交跟經濟日不落國這些政策方向我們有在推動中"},{"start":6974.244,"end":6979.988,"text":"看起來就是部長你覺得你也是做得不錯那沒有就是說其實我們就是沒有出錯啦不能講說做得不錯啦好我們一起為台灣努力啦一起讓世界看到台灣然後這比較重要是那部長你還記得三年前的四大公投裡面從蔡前總統還有蘇前院長還有前駐美代表就是現在的副總統蕭美琴前外交部長吳釗燮還有經濟部長王美華都大聲的疾呼說假如反萊豬公投通過我國"},{"start":7004.106,"end":7008.15,"text":"就沒有辦法加入CPTPP那部長我們現在回頭看那時候執政黨是不是講話講得太滿了呢因為三年過去了我們現在已經開放了萊豬但是現在還是沒有辦法加入啊而且11月30號的時候"},{"start":7020.08,"end":7029.084,"text":"CPTPP的執委會落幕主席國加拿大也宣布了哥斯大黎加將成為下一個總會員國那台灣和中國大陸的申請都是被擱置的那部長你上一次在我們的委員會的審查預算也表示新加坡對台灣其實抱持的支持的立場還有但是前度不見得強度不見得相同但是馬來西亞也沒有反對台灣加入所以這樣你覺得這樣的結果為什麼會這樣還有我們到底有沒有機會加入"},{"start":7049.773,"end":7069.06,"text":"我們在加入中並沒有說被就是擱置或否決那因為現在有11加1嘛這個1就是因果我們跟各國有開始在諮商因為本來要成立工作小組才能諮商現在在加拿大當輪值主席國的時候他同意可以"},{"start":7069.64,"end":7093.114,"text":"前期諮商也就在成立工作小組我們就可以跟一些國家談所以我跟委員報告我們實質上比如說我們台美21世紀貿易倡議這個內容拿給很多國家看發現說我們跟符合高標準我們沒有不良紀錄那所謂共識共識是什麼所以部長你的意思是我們有機會加入這樣就對了我們目前應該已經有得到差不多將近一半國家都是很支持的但是"},{"start":7093.914,"end":7113.201,"text":"要去成立工作小組這件事情在去年底還沒有成立那先成立了哥斯拉黎加可是去年有一個很重要並不是先報名就先加入中國比我們早一點去申請要加入CPTPP它根本連被討論都沒有因為有一些國家就是反對"},{"start":7115.002,"end":7134.282,"text":"說實在有些國家是反對中國加入因為他就還不符合標準可是說實在他要來卡我們嘛啊這個怎麼是有智慧的人來處理讓台灣跟中國可以分開部長你可以監黨回答嗎因為我今天的問題非常非常的多好那我現在進入正題反正剛才那個就是說我們現在也是有在努力就對了啦好"},{"start":7136.463,"end":7140.066,"text":"來部長我想看專題報告說總統賴清德從上個月去出訪友邦接下來本席將針對這個問題就叫一下就是總統去年12月1號在夏威夷過境的時候停留了兩晚雖然涉外的人士說這是最高的禮遇的規格可是"},{"start":7153.493,"end":7159.435,"text":"那時候只有夏威夷的州長還有檀香市的市長有在街梯之間迎接嘛但是外界都是對這個街機的規格都是有很多疑問的我想要請教部長幾個問題所以部長你認為賴總統這次的出訪街機是史上最高的規格嗎"},{"start":7172.426,"end":7176.468,"text":"是不是史上最高規格當然要怎麼看但是我是覺得說要高規格的這個因為我看是只有州長出席但是聯邦層級的參眾議員行政的一些官員都沒有出現嘛因為他們"},{"start":7187.953,"end":7190.775,"text":"所以大家會質疑說這是不是賴總統是去地方性質的出訪呢而且2001年阿扁前總統出訪美國的時候到紐約證交所敲鐘為什麼賴慶德總統不能在夏威夷隨便走走呢和喬包碰面一定要喬宴的場合和喬包碰面呢"},{"start":7205.803,"end":7211.324,"text":"還有一點就是說他在出訪喬宴的時候背板為什麼沒有寫中華民國是我們不放嗎還是不被美國准許呢因為蔡英文2019年去夏威夷的時候背板就有寫中華民國還有一點就是賴總統在美方有兩次的閉門會議那一次是夏威夷智庫東西方中心一次是跟州長談緊急的救難這些都沒有會後的記者會為什麼會是這樣呢"},{"start":7235.63,"end":7244.775,"text":"這代表什麼呢?是不是美方希望我們要低調呢?還是不想忍辱中國呢?還有一點就是賴總統參觀侏羅紀公園的時候,州長都沒有陪同這是不是和一般民眾旅遊有什麼不同呢?這是總統外交嗎?這看起來就有點像度假不是,這個其實我們跟英格拉森就是那個"},{"start":7261.991,"end":7286.963,"text":"這個AIT他們都有陪同啦因為最主要是這一個不只是什麼度假這個最主要是它是一個生態保育跟整個影視觀光結合很成功的一個案例所以我們也去了解那到夏威夷州的這個就是就是防災的這個中心去看那為什麼會沒有記者會 對"},{"start":7288.359,"end":7314.672,"text":"那也有報導啊 也有相片啊然後我們後續也啟動很多合作對 是不是因為一個記者會讓大家大家都知道呢有記者有在 記者都有照只是記者沒有進去那一個因為他們防災中心下面裡面的設備它有一定的機密性因為我看這個報告上面寫得很清楚因為我進去的時候都看到記者在那邊說我們是跟美國政府 駕著那個攝影機啊其實我們跟美國地方政府其實有密切的關係嘛 對不對因為在上面 我們今天也在報告上面講你看我們的國旗也在上面啊"},{"start":7315.512,"end":7326.063,"text":"但是州長都沒有陪同 那真的是關係真的是像外交部說的這樣有有有 州長陪同的時間應該是史上最長的啦當然看場合 你看我們到關島區喔 總督齁 大家也知道邀請我們去關邸 然後這個 不管是放國旗還唱國歌"},{"start":7334.751,"end":7354.961,"text":"所以我是覺得單點去看看不準啦應該整體來看台美關係我們建立在一個互信的基礎上很良好的溝通那該怎麼做都是大家很有共識的這一次很順利就是在於我們前面的溝通做得很好因為還有一個就是說見不到在地的聯邦議員就算了因為賴總統打電話給美國聯邦眾議前議長的佩洛西國會議員就坐在我旁邊有參加橋宴"},{"start":7361.124,"end":7369.049,"text":"所以 裴洛西是美國總統當選川普的最大敵人嘛不過啦 那個是在夏威夷 到了關島就有報導另外一位啊就Mark Johnson啊就現任的國會議長也有啊我們過去有兩個地點要一起放來看啦就是夏威夷跟關島要一起所以夏威夷是沒有的嘛 關島是有的意思是有啊 國會議員有參加 就住到旁邊啊"},{"start":7391.339,"end":7401.205,"text":"現在賴總統如果說要去美國肯定都是要事先安排嘛這是不是一定是啦因為這個時機確實各方面的考量就結果論來講是算很順利啦但是我想說如果是視訊的話是不是美國不能還是不想要不願意直接見面呢這樣這樣我會不會覺得說這樣是不是美方對我們的賴總統信任度是不是有質疑呢因為這是大家"},{"start":7414.053,"end":7424.904,"text":"在美國還在政府交接而且還在議會開議期間真的是能夠像國會議員能夠返回參加橋宴我們很感謝至於其他的有些用視訊或電話那個是我想是因為這個時間的關係"},{"start":7429.85,"end":7434.032,"text":"好那個主席再給我一分鐘因為還很多沒有問題但是我再問一個最簡單的問題好了請教一下部長川普1月20號就職典禮我們立法院這邊要韓院長率團去包含我們王定宇召委都是會跟幾個委員一起前往那川普的團隊如何認定"},{"start":7447.498,"end":7451.222,"text":"台美的關係應該是可以從座位上面來安排嘛 這點部長應該是同意嘛在2020年拜登就職的時候 其實我們那時候代表是蕭美琴是被安排在使節團的座位區這樣不是啦 這使節團附近啦但是這樣的話 那你覺得我們這一次會被安排在使節團的這些座位區裡嗎"},{"start":7468.257,"end":7489.912,"text":"死結團就是獨立的沒有當時疫情期間所以人很少大家往前嘛所以就在比較前面那這一次就是我們也有就是受到邀請包括我們余大雷大使當然我們整個團那麼多人嘛我們會找最適合的地點因為那個邀請含有一個分區那我也跟委員報告其實這個總統請這個韓院長率團並不是組團"},{"start":7498.317,"end":7522.362,"text":"這個組團還是要尊重我們比如說這個曹也這個立法委員所以現在是221啦然後後來因為硬是後來又變更要增加兩位就是台美是國會議員的這個友好的協會那我們的美處也是很努力在設法去達成所以我們希望說不要再變動能夠以這個來進行所以座位就可以認定我們跟台美的關係對吧"},{"start":7523.422,"end":7541.288,"text":"最主要是我們跨黨派呈現大家台灣團結然後重視台美關係是這一點那也不只是當天的就職典禮啦我們其他的拜訪啦還有一些參會啦應該是都會促進台美是都已經安排好了嗎都有在安排中了好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":7559.5,"end":7572.125,"text":"好 接下來我們請馬文君委員上台質詢謝謝主席 麻煩請部長我請您部長部長早我也好"},{"start":7585.25,"end":7605.333,"text":"我想要請教一下本席在上週其實有詢問過因為今天我們外交部主要的內容大概是推動二軌外交跟元首外交的這個部分可是我們從過去幾年我們的外交成果就是我們所有的邦交國掉了幾乎一半"},{"start":7605.974,"end":7633.654,"text":"那在很多的外交推動上面我們也花了非常多的資源甚至我們在國內很多重要的產業其實我們大概都拿出來當成外交的手段跟工具那如果可以獲得有效的或者正面的那當然可能很多的方式並不是不可以可是包括我們要接收像有一些產業比如說國外"},{"start":7635.855,"end":7638.197,"text":"快要破產的公司財務有問題的公司我們可能也要去採購這個對我們付出相當龐大可是二軌外交可能顯然在我們的正常外交上面我想要請教部長你對於我們現在目前的邦交國或者我們其他現在友好的關係的國家我們的目前的成果如何"},{"start":7660.305,"end":7676.025,"text":"在惡鬼外交方面我們要感謝美國就是國會支持那透過AIT在執行那個GCTF全球合作訓練架構那也包括這個日本澳大利亞之後現在加了加拿大"},{"start":7677.006,"end":7691.945,"text":"進來做會員所以我們擴展出去其實很多的合作訓練這個其實是多邊的一種惡鬼外交也可以是這樣講另外我們台灣其實跟比如說我們理念相近國家特別我們第一島鏈還有歐洲幾乎是"},{"start":7696.078,"end":7718.973,"text":"就是說有智庫也有我們官員他們比較能夠有辦法抗中那至於有一些地方像東南亞他們真的是比較不管是親中或恐中他們就顧忌很多那我們有些是邀請來台灣那有些用什麼樣的方式去進行惡鬼外交也都很頻繁的在進行最重要是台灣的重要性增加了台灣這個的角色"},{"start":7720.774,"end":7724.535,"text":"就是要了解我們現在整個中國崛起的威權擴張的挑戰跟這個問題是不能夠不跟台灣有一些交流跟台灣交流是最快的方法謝謝部長我大概給你很多的時間做這樣的說明可是我現在要說的是我們正常的外交因為歐洲為什麼他比較不會恐中是因為他距離很遠就跟美國川普總統他講的"},{"start":7748.061,"end":7771.851,"text":"其實我們的距離高達9000公里以外那我們跟大陸其實我們近在咫尺所以到時候這些會不會來正式協助我們我們不曉得 可是看到俄烏戰爭的時候我們可以很明確的知道其實他們並沒有真正的不管出兵也好或者做實質上面的這些防禦或者攻擊"},{"start":7773.912,"end":7792.537,"text":"他們大概提供的都是一些武器裝備或者其他的制裁行動那顯然我們面對的可能是更強大的威脅那這一部分我們不曉得美國歐洲或者其他我們剛剛講的五眼聯盟的這些相關的國家可以對我們提供什麼樣的實質幫助可是我們現在比較想要知道的是比較務實的部分因為我們編了非常多的外交預算可是我們"},{"start":7799.659,"end":7816.408,"text":"如果連上週我們一直不斷的詢問包括在預算審查的時候也有特別詢問到的可是到現在沒有一個具體的解決方案我認為我們的外交預算真的是太多了因為他根本做不到什麼事情尤其是連他不是總預算的問題而是外交部需不需要這麼多的預算首先我想要請教的是在上週我們已經問到"},{"start":7827.193,"end":7845.8,"text":"就是沙烏地阿拉伯阿曼約旦這些在台住處他們跟阿拉伯在台商務協會這個民間協會發生這個問題到目前為止我們看不到他的解決方案因為我看到我們提供的資料這個是從112年2月的時候這三個駐台機構已經分別給外交部"},{"start":7854.284,"end":7862.872,"text":"區提到說這個商會其實他是有問題的希望我們外交部給予釐清或者甚至在國內應該做什麼樣的處置可是這個是112年2月現在是114年的元月等於快要兩年的時間這中間我們做了什麼到目前為止我只是詢問說"},{"start":7877.545,"end":7889.895,"text":"我們有沒有發函給這三個住處因為他們畢竟是官方而且是正式的也被我們認可的一些一個代表那我們到底做了什麼樣的協處的動作兩年"},{"start":7894.523,"end":7921.094,"text":"來我請我們亞非市長來說明想跟委員報告這個議題基本上分為三個部分第一個部分就是簡單講就好了因為你們已經講太多了ACCT它本身就是冒用官方性質這個部分已經處理過了這個沒問題嘛對不對對已經處理過了那第二個部分呢可以怎麼處理它是冒用官方嗎那個我們已經發函了而且調查局還有那個警政署還有我們內政部都已經處理好了這個事情已經是告一段落怎麼處理好了"},{"start":7921.774,"end":7930.377,"text":"發函然後也強制他不可以再使用了那事實上 不可以再使用什麼不可以再使用官方性質 具體的把它講完就是說他不能再冒用代表阿拉伯國家的一個駐台那事實上我們部裡面也發過通函也告知所有的一些部內的單位還有相關機關他不具官方的性質因為所有具官方性質的駐台是必須在我們禮賓處要有登記的他募款敘利亞的贈災款你們知道怎麼用了嗎"},{"start":7951.677,"end":7968.642,"text":"這個部分他是依據他自己民團的那個在做處理我們在國內所有的相關社團如果要募款的時候都必須要經過我們所有內政部他必須要認可不是你什麼民團他就可以這樣募款他必須依據衛福部的相關規則所以像這個部分你們怎麼做這部分我們有通知那個相關的機關就他不具任何官方的身份內政部還有警政署你外交部明知道他已經有問題你可以做的是什麼"},{"start":7980.592,"end":8001.58,"text":"我們也一直跟他保持密切的溝通跟誰跟誰保持密切的溝通這三個住台我們平常都有密切的溝通我們上一次有問說我們有沒有發函給這三個住處他們有外交豁免權嗎民事形式有嗎這個就是我要跟委員報告的第二個部分有或沒有就好 有或沒有"},{"start":8003.101,"end":8011.264,"text":"有或沒有 沙烏地有 那另外兩個代表處是沒有沒有的原因是什麼 沒有是因為雙邊沒有互惠那過程中我們一直 美國給我們有沒有互惠如果我們的國人 我們一個軍人在美國打人的時候美國會不會給我們這些相關的這些外交豁免"},{"start":8022.449,"end":8023.089,"text":"會不會如果有我們的武官派在美國如果他喝醉酒他去打了美國的公民他們會不會給我們外交豁免"},{"start":8034.509,"end":8038.81,"text":"報告委員我們現在就是說非邦交國的部分簡單講就好了有沒有給我們外交豁免美國有沒有給我們有給我們把資料提供給我們不要再講機密了今天這個已經發生在我們的自己的土地上面我們的國人被美國人毆打的時候今天為什麼"},{"start":8054.594,"end":8065.572,"text":"那個AIT的人員他不去找外交部他直接找國防部他是怎麼處理的今天他是直接打給國防部然後直接把人帶出來甚至叫他們不要提告人就走了"},{"start":8068.342,"end":8086.875,"text":"今天我們認可的官方的代表在這裡被剛剛你們說的違規違法的民間團體組織被他們提告被他們騷擾被他們霸凌被他們在網路上面惡意的攻擊可是我們一點作為都沒有那你們要這些預算做什麼"},{"start":8089.212,"end":8101.918,"text":"你到現在還沒有處理的結果部長我相信您說你接任部長這個位置沒有很久的時間可是這個案子我們不斷在預算為什麼我們會特別提出來這是國格的問題今天"},{"start":8106.434,"end":8111.918,"text":"有人可以打我們的國人你說他有他的身份是什麼他是AIT正式的人員嗎是嗎你們把如果要這樣我們必須要追究他到底是什麼樣的身份背景因為我們今天不是人家的殖民地今天如果你要對等那請把相關的資料提供給國人很清楚的知道我們是怎麼樣對等我們有很多我們都認為我們"},{"start":8132.674,"end":8136.584,"text":"可能比較高額的資源或者我們什麼樣的一些"},{"start":8138.133,"end":8161.589,"text":"條件我們可以在雙邊可以獲得比較好的發展的情況之下我們都同意可是你今天他們美國在台協會的人員我不知道他是不是正式的在台協會的人員如果你今天要在這裡講那你又把它講清楚而且書面資料一定要提供上一次你明明說要提供書面資料後來又變機敏為什麼有機敏今天我們的人員在國外或者外國的"},{"start":8168.693,"end":8186.382,"text":"駐外使節或者相關的人員他們必須受到我們重視的時候這個有什麼機敏可言所以在這裡我想我們希望的平等互惠還有國格我們在處理這個事情的時候我不知道為什麼你們怕什麼你們只是發個文給他說你到底有或沒有"},{"start":8187.262,"end":8211.361,"text":"在1971年退出聯合國的時候我們曾經經歷雪崩式的斷交約旦在這個時候贈送他們外館的土地我們目前使用的就是約旦送的我們現在雙邊都還有一些國安還有軍人還有一些教育上面的交流持續在進行中他們很快的已經要停止這樣子的交流"},{"start":8212.262,"end":8224.211,"text":"就是因為我們的處置兩年了人家一個晚上打人的他都可以把他帶走而且還叫他不需要提告這個部分我們外交做不到外交部做不到那你們編錢到底要做什麼另外尼加拉瓜我們的住處是我們花錢買的我們花人民的納稅錢後來時間你們說時間來不及本來說要提告"},{"start":8236.98,"end":8244.504,"text":"後來也沒有提告我們用一元的價值捐給天主教會可是後來白白的就送給中國了這一種你們連一句話都講不出來人家送給我們外館現在你還在用可是你對待人家的方式是這樣部長你的看法怎麼樣跟委員報告 委員所說的外交已經基於對等跟互惠那我們如果有外交豁免"},{"start":8263.994,"end":8289.318,"text":"一定是就是對等的啦但是如果在執行上因為具體的個案有沒有涉及哪個主管機關比如委員我在第一時間知道之後我想他們既然在台灣涉處啦我站在外交部來講的都是我們要去關心的不能夠什麼一下子什麼徵訊啦 約談然後另外如果說有一些影響到他們這些在台灣公權力的執行我們當然也馬上跟內政部"},{"start":8289.818,"end":8293.661,"text":"因為我們留給時間我們留給時間我現在只是一個比較你不管面對比較強的國家或比較弱的國家或者跟我們關係並不是你們認為不那麼密切的國家你都應該是對等所謂的對等是我們的人被欺負了你也不能幫他拍拍屁股我們自己自認倒楣然後你對很多的國家那你應該處理啊如果他查出來的身份如果不是那你就應該處理"},{"start":8316.598,"end":8325.382,"text":"因為這有涉及到內政警政署相關的單位我要再說警政署或其他那外交部就不需要這麼多經費我已經強調三次了我現在在說的是我們算審過可是當我們覺得你們不值得要這麼多的經費的時候你們外交部的預算跟過去真的增加很多可是我們看到我們邦交國不斷的流失甚至連這樣的處置都沒有辦法"},{"start":8342.329,"end":8346.012,"text":"聖路西亞到現在他的網站上面還掛著我們幫他寫的那篇文章我們派出去的一個詐騙販毒的外交替代役到幫他們的警察上課的這個文章到目前為止我剛剛再詢問了一下他還在聖路西亞的官網上所以你們一直在說你們做了多少事然後可以做什麼有什麼樣的作為我們不認為你們值得要這麼多的預算"},{"start":8370.752,"end":8374.074,"text":"這是我再次強調我們到現在還沒有看到這三個住處他們我們的石油其實跟這三個國家就是跟 委員我提議我來跟他們見個面因為我每次委員執行我就交班他們跟我的報告也都有接觸也確實依照我們外交的關係在處理我是覺得如果委員這麼關心我來關懷一下 部長"},{"start":8396.804,"end":8401.308,"text":"為什麼會特別舉美國的例子我們不敢跟美國說什麼話啦 人家把我們打 人家把我們帶走 還不可以把我們的人救啦今天有另外一件事情你卻處理了兩年都處理不好 這是什麼樣的對外交對等有處理中耶 我們有發函以外 我本身也在備詢的時候有提到那些有涉及違法我們就要"},{"start":8420.185,"end":8423.809,"text":"聽我講完所謂的查辦到剛剛你有聽到查辦了什麼嗎今天人家如果連發生直接的民事糾紛甚至有毆打他都可以把人帶走我們現在不是說有發函啊有所有的單位啊就是對他這些沒有用沒有效益的章"},{"start":8439.605,"end":8461.877,"text":"部長我這裡有你們發函的內容為什麼我會再問就是因為你們沒有做就是因為你們沒有做就是因為你們沒有做約旦已經要終止要把人員送到我們台灣的這樣的計畫這個維持了四五十四十幾年這樣子的計畫他們要終止了部長你要正視今天如果他真的終止你們的預算應該全部砍掉謝謝"},{"start":8465.917,"end":8482.077,"text":"投資當然我們希望盡量招商啦不過投資跟我們的政務啊還是對我們來努力啦好謝謝馬文君委員部長請回待會許曉清委員諮詢完畢後休息五分鐘現在請陳冠廷委員上台諮詢"},{"start":8493.669,"end":8494.33,"text":"麻煩主席我們請部長請您部長"},{"start":8514.537,"end":8527.996,"text":"部長好委員好那個今天我剛剛看部長接受訪問那有提到說訪美的這個訪團那基本上所有的成員都已經訂了嗎對好成員都訂了那這次是由團長是誰"},{"start":8538.032,"end":8550.598,"text":"韓國瑜院長這次率團我們整個國會的成員那是朝野都有 三黨都有所以我這邊先一個期許其實最近幾次訪美的一些行程朝野立委訪美的時候都有一些風波出來"},{"start":8551.218,"end":8574.889,"text":"那不論是說跟訪團之間的成員的這個不愉快或者是說跟駐美代表處之間的一些溝通上面的一些問題我在出訪之前那先跟外交部來先談一下就是希望說這樣子的狀況不要出現那我也希望說有這個機會讓朝野的立委讓我們一致對外所以這個部分包含行程上面對智庫的訪問對美國政要的訪問"},{"start":8577.17,"end":8601.093,"text":"我希望我們三黨都能夠有共識那原則上訪團內部有共識之後才會有一些新聞上面的釋出等等只要有這樣子的基礎互信在的話我相信這一次或許是一個朝野能夠在對內競爭對外一致的一個新的篇章所以目前安排的如何有些智庫政要都已經開始在做好一些處理了嗎"},{"start":8601.997,"end":8617.972,"text":"本次訪美的都在積極進行中那主要是當然就是出席這個美國總統就職典禮那這個部分因為經過立院黨團的協商那就是也有給我們外交部名單"},{"start":8619.213,"end":8637.099,"text":"所以除了總統請這個韓院長來率團那這個團的成員大家也協商出來民進黨、國民黨跟民眾黨是三一位就是總共是這樣子加團長就是八位"},{"start":8637.839,"end":8659.422,"text":"那我相信這個跨黨派的國會議員組成的一個代表團是很有代表性但我要在這邊再說明這個是有行政部門再去協調來辦理那我們外交部我們會就是說把這些行政作業做好那我們希望就是不要再有變更因為本來是221啦"},{"start":8660.863,"end":8685.779,"text":"後來立法院當然是請我們去努力看看能不能再加兩位真的是很辛苦啦因為這個在美國這種就職典禮其實能夠出席的這些所謂的外賓是很少他們主要是以國內為主那在這種情況之下我們希望不要再有變動因為這個來來晃晃的行政作業還有內外的溝通所以這一點也請大院能夠來理解好 謝謝部長"},{"start":8688.621,"end":8706.757,"text":"由韓院長來所謂率團但並不是由立法院來組團好 謝謝部長這個是由韓院長率團那另外一個部分我們還是強調我看總統最近有提出來說希望能夠跟訪團的成員來去交友會晤那我在這邊真的是"},{"start":8707.438,"end":8734.876,"text":"很樂見其成我們也希望說這一次的出訪或許是一個國會重新啟動那化解朝野僵局的新篇章那是我誠摯希望的所以這次的訪團不僅是對外我想對內團結都是一個很好的一個開始說到訪團我看最近有聽到媒體在說國安會之前也有訪團去訪美是不是有兩位國安會副秘書長去訪美那不知道成果如何不知道有沒有跟外交部有一些交流"},{"start":8737.779,"end":8760.184,"text":"當然到美國我們的代表處也都會有協助他們也都會聯繫所以我們有一定的了解有一定的了解有沒有什麼成果可以跟我們民眾分享我想多出席交流互動我想對這個尤其在政府交接期間都是有幫助的"},{"start":8761.304,"end":8773.995,"text":"有什麼具體的成果嗎見到了誰談了什麼大概不必給我具體的名字但是有什麼樣的進展他們就盡可能去不管是就是去參加活動或者是貿易安全還是講安全還是講什麼樣的領域"},{"start":8777.498,"end":8790.132,"text":"因為這是比較不是一個正式的組團的活動他是以個別的方式去的那我們也都有了解 協助所以我就不帶為來說明不帶為說明 那國安會有誰監督"},{"start":8794.631,"end":8817.35,"text":"因為沒有辦法監督嘛 因為他不用來國會嘛報載嘛 媒體是有一些報導嘛那就是如同媒體報導有一些人有出席一些活動OK 好不過這不是正式的活動啦不是正式官方的活動那個都是一些拜會啦或出席有一些宴會啦我們用平常心啦"},{"start":8818.05,"end":8835.187,"text":"多交流 因為在這個關鍵時刻多一個互動就多一層關係非常好 我希望不是形式上的而是實質上面有一些有意義的對話那這些對話我們也希望說有橫向溝通不是只是留在國安會的辦公室裡面"},{"start":8835.828,"end":8861.711,"text":"那這樣子的經驗傳承或者是說資訊傳遞各個部會之間才會有意義必須要強調因為我們之前在對國安局也好或者是各個不同的部會質詢的時候我一直在強調這一個整體性不要說每一個部會有各自的這一些資訊然後都覺得很機敏然後不分享那覺得說我好像知道某些事情我了解的比較多那還有是個上下之分不要因為"},{"start":8863.092,"end":8884.151,"text":"外交是總體的嘛因為部長也常講總體外交我也希望國安會把這些資訊都能夠第一時間讓我們外交部的這些部會的人員知道那以後投入的資源方向就會更加來去明確謝謝部長部長我剛剛看到這一次給我們的專題報告裡面有講一些出訪的紀錄跟出訪的成果"},{"start":8884.651,"end":8901.857,"text":"那我不禁有點懷疑 奇怪 我們這個訪問的對象除了邦交國之外似乎偏重於歐洲 甚至是偏重於中東歐那我想說我們新南向政策我們的南向國家似乎比較沒有受到外交部的出訪喜愛 有這樣的情況嗎"},{"start":8907.133,"end":8928.612,"text":"我在這邊看到出訪成果裡面要嘛就是歐洲議會的這個或者是立陶宛波蘭捷克斯洛伐克等等或者是這個烏克蘭的經營烏克蘭雙邊關係我都認同就如同說我之前都認同價值外交但是現在部長講的是總體外交總體外交裡面部長又最重視的是經貿外交"},{"start":8929.232,"end":8956.066,"text":"我想請教一下捷克、斯洛伐克、立陶宛、波蘭對於我國的總體的外交、外貿裡面佔的百分比是多少那為什麼我們把所有的資源全部都放在中東歐那我很意外因為此時此刻東南亞國家對中國的好感度是不斷的增加對美國的好感度現在是在下降的狀況之下甚至說有相關的這個民調我們在左下角有這一個"},{"start":8957.045,"end":8977.741,"text":"這個Source資料來源他說你的國家如何應對台海衝突竟然是會支持中國的雖然是非常小部分但是還有微調微深大部分的都不願意來去做實質上面的來去協調台海之間的衝突也就是說在這樣的狀況之下我不懂外交部現在的重心是放在哪裡歐洲價值外交"},{"start":8978.789,"end":8998.837,"text":"還是已經就全面轉向總體外交了我跟委員報告除了我們的邦交國之外當然像美國它當然就是很開放嘛那歐洲的國家就看誰去比如蔡前總統有去那因為這些比較民主的國家大概我們的交流比較容易由部次長去啦你說在東南亞"},{"start":9000.357,"end":9019.407,"text":"我們當然有一些經貿性質的會議我們就不論嘛因為我們在談的是元首外交跟惡鬼外交那你說日本當然交流很頻繁以外包括菲律賓澳洲紐西蘭可是東協啦委員也知道你看像今年這個這個世界台商會在越南這個召開的時候我們的立委啊"},{"start":9020.768,"end":9046.704,"text":"連江啟臣副院長也被限制不能夠入境然後現在這一次是在馬來西亞開亞洲台商會同樣的也有一些限制所以說如果沒有限制我們是一定我們以外交部來講是一定主動積極來去交流另外至於智庫的外交有一些是公開有些不公開我想包括印度在內確實是也都很頻繁"},{"start":9047.324,"end":9063.796,"text":"因為說實在大家都很希望透過台灣也去了解這個兩岸之間的關係謝謝部長這樣我們就比較了解可能是沒有辦法因為畢竟他們還是對中國的關係他們的牽制比較深所以可能我們的這些高層出訪比較困難但是我還是要強調包含在國內"},{"start":9067.699,"end":9086.96,"text":"我們會晤這個各國駐台的代表或者是大使不管是有沒有邦交國關係我們辦公室都有在做統計就是在新聞上面出現的頻率我們下次把圖表拿給你看那我們從中可以大概看到包含總統府在內 國安會在內似乎都比較偏重於歐洲"},{"start":9088.413,"end":9114.981,"text":"我當然同意啦價值外交很重要但是就如同我對部長的期許現在已經是總和外交了包含經貿都很重要那我們台灣我們在東南亞國家之間的交流我們我國的台橋主要分布的區域還是以美跟東南亞為主美國為主那接下來就是東南亞各國所以我們不要把這個重心跟資源那全部都往一個區域來去放"},{"start":9115.461,"end":9134.099,"text":"我必須強調歐洲它的重要性是有的但是對於我國的經貿安全還有對台橋的影響力來講的話東南亞加上印度它是非常具有重要性的特別是印度我老實說在過去的一年多來我基本上主要的大國"},{"start":9135.16,"end":9159.06,"text":"有核子強權那這個可以牽制中國的主要力量我沒有發覺到有很大的這個助力在那邊甚至包含南韓也是我們韓國跟我國之間的關係過去還是有很長時間的邦交國那文化上面科技上面的交友都有我是真的希望說把視角放回亞洲謝謝大家好 謝謝我們會加強謝謝陳冠廷委員"},{"start":9163.922,"end":9167.763,"text":"部長請回接下來我們請許巧欣委員上台諮詢謝謝主席我們有請林佳龍林部長有請部長"},{"start":9189.583,"end":9204.699,"text":"部長好新年快樂那我想呢我們前一陣子啊我們在外交國防委員會都在忙著審查預算那也很開心就說大部分的預算呢我們都已經審訊完畢了那也是有一個不管是在野黨或是執政黨跟政府單位很好的一個溝通過程"},{"start":9205.279,"end":9214.97,"text":"但是尤其在審查國防部的預算的時候大多數的委員們不分黨派都有談到一件事就是我們的軍購美國還沒有發貨的狀況"},{"start":9220.876,"end":9243.377,"text":"那當時美國選舉大選出爐的時候您在11月7號的委員會備詢那我當時問了這個川普要求我們要均壽達GDP5到10%未來要如何因應你也提你也回復說呢我國採購的200億美軍軍購案的貨都還沒有給這方面美國也是理虧的那我國的需求是增加當中那未來要怎麼樣溝通"},{"start":9244.398,"end":9256.592,"text":"可是我們看到這個蔡英文前總統在歐洲這個國外的論壇裡面談到說烏克蘭比台灣更需要美國的武器那烏克蘭戰勝就可以嚇阻中國先不論後半句話的對錯但是當烏克蘭比台灣"},{"start":9259.475,"end":9287.556,"text":"更需要美國的武器由國家的前元首向國外世界闡述這樣的方向的時候我們都知道台灣現在接貨武器的速度比較慢某種程度來說是因為美國在產線上面跟烏克蘭還有其他的一些國家出現了排擠那當我們的前元首公開的說烏克蘭比台灣還要需要的時候會不會影響到我們國家的一些武器那採購以後交付的速度以及外交部在這方面要如何跟美方溝通來因應"},{"start":9289.042,"end":9305.989,"text":"老公委員報告我們當然從台灣角度講台灣就是最重要而且很急迫其實像在川普總統他現在任命的國安顧問Michael Woods他就是先前那個Tiger就是那個老虎小組就是在加速"},{"start":9306.829,"end":9319.004,"text":"美台這些軍購之後的交付那我相信這個速度未來會加快因為我們也在努力做有岸外包或是近岸外包因為有些項目如果台灣可以生產當然我們都鼓勵由台灣來生產我們都鼓勵來"},{"start":9324.511,"end":9339.824,"text":"台灣生產可是很多重要的武器確實沒有美方這裡的許可或是不是有美方因為我們已經前因投下去了嘛那現在討論的是武器延宕交付的問題那武器延宕的交付我再講一次很多時候是因為美方他們也公開承認了"},{"start":9340.885,"end":9357.434,"text":"就是說因為烏克蘭的產線問題他美國他也沒有那麼大的能量可以那麼快速的製作這麼多的武器然後來交付所以當蔡英文前總統講說烏克蘭比台灣還要需要的時候是不是就會造成未來更多的嚴當的問題那外交部這裡要如何跟美國來進行溝通"},{"start":9358.655,"end":9364.099,"text":"我們跟美國溝通就是我們非常需要而且就是希望能夠盡快的來交付這些已經採購的武器至於說未來這個採購的項目我們也已經積極有在這個推動中"},{"start":9375.399,"end":9400.223,"text":"所以要特別提醒我覺得烏克蘭誰比誰更需要這件事情我們應該要站在台灣的角度來講對我來說沒有任何一個國家我能夠在國會殿堂上面講說別人比我們更需要既然我們採購了我們一定是最需要而且我們一定是希望對方能夠按時交付這是守在一個為人民去爭取守護納稅前的立法委員的想法"},{"start":9400.563,"end":9417.68,"text":"我相信外交部長您也是從中華民國的角度看要認為一定要認為台灣是最優先其他的國家當然我們都祝福他們一切安好但是既然我們購買了武器我們不希望延宕我們一定希望對方把台灣排在最優先的角度部長認同嗎同意"},{"start":9420.222,"end":9430.463,"text":"那再來另外一個問題有關於台灣的獎助學金這個台灣fellowship您知道這個獎助學金有多少年了是由誰來評估怎麼樣來評估的嗎"},{"start":9432.779,"end":9458.306,"text":"台灣這個fellowship你是台美那一歸台灣的獎助學金我們已經三十年都有了三十年了嘛對不對然後我們是由這個大使館跟代表處來受理申請確認資料評估申請人的學術影響力那有內部人士跟外部人士可是我要想要特別問一下部長您認不認識有一位叫做Carrie Garenchick的"},{"start":9459.326,"end":9473.254,"text":"學者他也有能拿到我們國家的這個台灣獎助學金的計畫而且呢已經連續拿了三次他的重要著作是什麼為什麼他能夠得到台灣的這個連三年的這個獎助"},{"start":9475.127,"end":9502.888,"text":"有人知道嗎?可以代替部長回答都沒有關係因為這個細節的問題我相信事務官有時候更清楚叫做Kerry Jeffrieschick我給大家看一下他在2020年出版了一本書我們先翻譯這樣子我直接講他的英文叫做Political Warfare Strategies for Combating China's Plans to Win Without Fighting這個是由美國的海軍陸戰隊大學出版的"},{"start":9503.268,"end":9521.396,"text":"但是在第126頁裡面他傳遞了錯誤的內容我們姑且先不論大家的政黨傾向跟政治傾向但是呢他裡面提到說呢馬英九前總統因為洩漏機密資料違反中華民國通訊保護法被判有罪進一步玷污了他的遺產"},{"start":9522.316,"end":9551.158,"text":"这本书在2020年出版但是呢我国在2019年高院一审就宣判了马总统这个无罪定验并且不得再上诉的事实所以代表他的这本书里面有非常严重的瑕疵这跟政党立场无关这跟我国的司法体制有关所以2019年就已经确定无罪不得再上诉定验的内容却出现在这个学者2020年的书里面造谣"},{"start":9551.798,"end":9578.192,"text":"那等於說呢美國海軍陸戰隊的大學生都看到了這個假訊息很多人會以為我們中華民國的前元首是被判決有罪的好 等於說我們的前元首因為他的著作而被污蔑那結果呢他在2018 2020和2025年分別拿了我們三次的獎助學金那如果他不是一個被認為很重要的學者怎麼會這樣子呢我想要問一下亞太司司長北美司司長你們認識這個人嗎來"},{"start":9586.442,"end":9591.317,"text":"八年內獲獎三次你們認識他嗎?報告委員我這邊沒有接觸過沒有接觸過來下一位"},{"start":9594.454,"end":9620.822,"text":"因為要不是亞太司就北美司我們這邊也沒有接觸也沒有接觸所以沒有人認識這個人但他八年內拿獎三次你們知道他機票加獎金他大概會領到台幣公帑市兩百多萬元然後他連我們最基本國內的法律他寫的都是錯的在國外去造謠我國中華民國的前元首我再說一次這跟政治傾向沒有關係如果他們污蔑了我們的前總統蔡英文我也會感到非常的不悅"},{"start":9621.582,"end":9647.021,"text":"再來呢這個獎助學金我請問一下他支領到的每一個月的補助金有多少錢詳細每個案子不一定一樣這一個這一個Carrie的這一個知道再告訴我啦每個月我講答案好了好不好一個月是六萬元六萬元一年就多少錢了三年就多少錢了再加上機票的來回補貼就多少錢了"},{"start":9647.842,"end":9650.725,"text":"所以我想要問一下就是說外交部這邊有沒有整理過從我們開始成立獎助金以來我們有沒有一個對單人個人補助的上限或者是次數的上限或是什麼樣一個審查標準或者是讓我們發現或有人檢舉說他的著作或他的學術產生問題的時候我們有沒有一個停下來的機制"},{"start":9671.351,"end":9677.634,"text":"那個委員一定有審查機制但是具體的個案尤其涉及出版如果有錯誤啦那當然我們事後知道了應該因為我們有講住嘛應該也要就是應該請其更新啦因為這個雖然我知道在學術界誰給我 grant 跟我自己出版不是兩件事情那我們還是遵守出版我們在做審查的時候因為他已經我們給他講決心有一個審查機制所以不是外交部誰說的"},{"start":9699.222,"end":9711.051,"text":"審查過給他補助他去做了研究後來出版出版這個是獨立的事情可是出版裡面如果有錯誤我們有補助而且因為他碰到的是我們外交的一個很大的問題就是說是中華民國的原則"},{"start":9716.235,"end":9742.766,"text":"出版但是2019有新的判決他沒有去更新嘛因為他建立在2018的資料上所以這個在時間上他有個時間差沒有但他就沒有去double check他寫的東西是否是正確的他沒有去更新最新的資料那再來就是說這是一個疏失啦這是一個很大的錯誤因為它涉及到中華民國元首的我們整個國家的顏面的問題而且它是一個假訊息一個假的資訊"},{"start":9743.686,"end":9771.699,"text":"那根據我們獎助金官網的指引說明就說鼓勵學者在台灣的大專中心設計這個研究中心但是有學者向我反映說實務操作上面外交部的獎助金申請制度的設計申請人受到錄取通知之後才要開始找台灣的接待單位所以有時候會因為找不到而求助於承辦的國土漢學中心那這個時候國土漢學中心會怎麼樣做建議就是學問了"},{"start":9772.159,"end":9785.955,"text":"所以我的意思是說我們在整個台灣獎助學金包含是我們的申請的限制次數然後呢金額然後不是說比如說這個人他可能每年都是他那是不是我們其他很優秀的學者他就申請不到了"},{"start":9787.617,"end":9790.661,"text":"有沒有相關的限制以及當它的學術架構或者是內容出現問題的時候我們能夠怎麼樣去跟對方來溝通還有我們要來做研究中心的時候有沒有多方面的管道能夠推薦而不是收到錄取之後才發現說我找不到地方可以在台灣去做研究"},{"start":9806.921,"end":9819.115,"text":"這方面是不是可以請外交部事後再補題書面報告詳細的資料給我那你們也做一個整體的研究我們希望讓台灣的獎助金能夠越來越好運用在有效的地方也不要造成國際社會對中華民國的錯誤認知"},{"start":9821.906,"end":9849.819,"text":"我會來請同仁檢視一下先前獎學金的這個審查那得到的人他的一個他的組成包括有人多次那另外就是有關於他得到之後要來做研究那他要有一個機構這個關係我們看怎麼樣能夠同時啊或者怎麼樣能夠來協助能夠找到他能夠能夠能夠這是所謂affiliate跟他能夠合作的單位好 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":9852.416,"end":9857.038,"text":"謝謝許巧欣委員 謝謝部長那暫時先休息五分鐘"},{"start":9882.015,"end":9882.259,"text":"漂亮"},{"start":10289.295,"end":10290.316,"text":"好 我們繼續開會我們請羅志強委員上台質詢有請部長請林部長"},{"start":10306.311,"end":10325.32,"text":"部長好兩週前12月16日前替代藝男林姓男子在美國紐約因為經營毒品交易平台被逮捕而且向美國法院認罪的案件這件事情部長知道嗎知道那請問外交部在多久掌握到這個事情"},{"start":10326.814,"end":10348.811,"text":"應該第一時間 因為我們有協助他申辦這個案子事實上五月份 該林姓替代義男在紐約被逮捕後 外交部曾經發稿證實那這個林姓男子 他是2023年是國和會派駐聖路西亞的外交替代義男 沒錯吧原來是預計在2024年7月退役"},{"start":10351.733,"end":10359.653,"text":"那我要跟部長說我覺得這件事對我們的國際形象還有替代藝尤其是外派的這個部分"},{"start":10360.475,"end":10386.446,"text":"的制度也造成很多的一些衝擊那這件事情的事後處理我覺得還是有很多的疑點所以在這邊我希望外交部能夠積極的回應跟澄清社會的疑慮那我首先想要問一下說林姓替代義男在我友邦聖路西亞服役他是協助擔任警察部門的網路犯罪防制相關工作對不對"},{"start":10387.767,"end":10397.139,"text":"對,網路方面的治安那目前我們跟聖路西亞政府通報那相關離境男子開課的課程資料下架了嗎?還沒有是不是?已經下架了嗎?"},{"start":10401.57,"end":10422.585,"text":"我們的下架了 已經有智慧聖路西亞那我們再來溝通啦因為我們單方面下架但是他那邊如果還掛著我們來協調一下加快我覺得事後的補救工作外交部還是要就是再上心一點因為坦白講蠻難看的啦 沒錯吧 部長"},{"start":10423.806,"end":10442.067,"text":"掛在那邊當然不好看所以因此要先確認是不是能夠把後續的事情處理完那我就要想請教一下市長從公開資訊來看早在2020年10月在暗網上創建他就創建了名為匿名市場的在線商務平台"},{"start":10442.748,"end":10471.114,"text":"那調查人員發現在匿名市場上他出售的包括海洛因、可卡因、搖頭丸還有冰毒還有許許多多一些包括普通的致幻劑以及已經在美國形成公害的芬太尼那麼我要問就是說美國的司法機構在機場叫他逮捕也就是說他已經掌握他的行蹤那外交部在這件事情上是有沒有提前知道相關的訊息還是等到人被抓了才接獲通報"},{"start":10472.459,"end":10496.227,"text":"應該說到了紐約之後就是有會我們意見我們駐外的我們的警政秘書就第一時間就掌握而且協助他辦理因為剛好5月19號這剛好在520這個新政府就職前後所以我上任之後我就就是有要求這個事情就是配合辦理以外我們也要針對這個事情能夠來查明"},{"start":10499.628,"end":10526.599,"text":"我要問部長的重點就在於說這案子在這個所謂的我們講這案子美國司法部就是逮捕人以及在所謂偵案的過程當中我們的政府包括外交部以及包括我們警政部門他是事前就已經掌握他的犯罪然後跟美國做相當程度的司法應該是沒有說在聖路西亞掌握沒有沒有嗎是他到了紐約之後美方在查是所以有匯我們意見我們那時候就才知道"},{"start":10527.179,"end":10540.625,"text":"所以我覺得恐怕內控部分也要再注意一下這是變成是美國掌握到發現那事實上人是在抱歉在國和會啊在我們聖路西亞對不對反正其實外交部就有一點督導上的責任的問題吧不是嗎"},{"start":10543.007,"end":10561.984,"text":"他的工作性質不是直接跟這個有關 但是因為人嘛 我想他的犯罪行為我們當然一方面是當事人他接受司法調查啦他是替代義男嘛 再透過國和會派深入西洋嘛 對不對那所以換言之外交部這件事我覺得還是有督導責任啦 不是嗎"},{"start":10563.16,"end":10585.507,"text":"所以外管就是整體責任就是一定都有的因為人在外管嘛雖然是國盤會是另外有沒有釐清一下就是說透過他的逮捕跟犯罪事實他在服役期間有沒有涉及相關的機敏諮詢或者用他的職位來進行不當的交易就是外交的資源跟活動對他這個所謂犯罪行為"},{"start":10586.147,"end":10612.587,"text":"的影響是什麼有沒有他利用外交的這個所謂的資源來去稅刑他的一個犯罪的一個行動呢有沒有查過 依照人員的這個就是還有包括機密等級應該是沒有啦但是他會被稅有期制度這當然也都事後應該要來釐清那因為我們跟邦交國我們的國會其實一些替代藝人雖然只是一個年輕的人可對他們政府的幫助也是很大"},{"start":10613.668,"end":10636.346,"text":"我不否認替代役制度的幫助但這是我下一個要問的問題事實上我覺得今天會有這樣的一個所謂的不法之徒那以替代役的制度變成是到邦交國這邊就反而是妨礙跟所謂傷害我們的外交的所謂的信譽跟尊嚴的時候我想要請教我們的這個替代役男在外邦"},{"start":10637.047,"end":10648.106,"text":"外交友邦服役的管理機制目前外交部檢討是什麼我們怎麼樣去避免未來發生的事情以及對於所謂的替代藝男的篩選的過程我們的查核機制是什麼"},{"start":10648.604,"end":10668.333,"text":"其實因為TID還是屬於內政部警政署那他們身過一個審查的過程他符合資格然後我們外交部用外管所以就在這個前半段是內政部但是我們當然也會希望他們能夠嚴格因為畢竟派外代表國家不管是外交部或國和會"},{"start":10670.26,"end":10697.235,"text":"這個審查機制就是選擇了這個替代役的這個部分我們跟內政部我想就發生這個個案那以後在這個這個替代役男的這個派外上面希望能夠就是注意這個他的本身的有沒有犯罪行為或是上網路上因為有時候有些人看起來沒什麼前科但是這個他也許在某一些"},{"start":10698.555,"end":10724.651,"text":"網路或跨境的犯罪上是有這種嫌疑或者是這種狀況那當然是應該要更審慎那在麻煩部裡面針對我剛剛提的幾個問題就是說這件事事後的善後的處理狀況如何以及他對他的身份在外交部裡面他有沒有涉及要釐清一下他有沒有幹用他的外交在外交部的身份來做他犯罪的一個行動的掩護"},{"start":10725.452,"end":10740.174,"text":"第三個就是替代藝男跟內政部協商一下外交說真的人派到國外去發生這種事情真的是我們國家蠻丟臉的啦所以這種事情應該把這個個案變成是一個檢討的案例不要讓以後再發生這種類似的問題"},{"start":10741.595,"end":10757.221,"text":"對 我們藉由這個個案來徹底的檢討這些替代異難 選擇跟外派還有他在當地服務有沒有涉及機密或者是這些跟我們外交工作有衝突的地方好 謝謝部長 謝謝謝謝羅志強委員部長請回"},{"start":10768.197,"end":10771.7,"text":"張祺凱張祺凱張祺凱委員不在接下來我們請葉元之委員上台諮詢你好主席好請請部長謝謝有請部長"},{"start":10788.771,"end":10806.431,"text":"部長你好上次我在這邊質詢提到一個杜拜辦事處的事情你們的國會聯絡人說杜拜辦事處沒辦法協助國人去解決有關於簽證發錯的問題要自己去找旅行社後來你也有承認說可能這樣做不妥後來有去了解或是做出相關處置"},{"start":10808.993,"end":10824.199,"text":"因為這個是涉及到那個他的那個簽證資格來我請我同仁再說明一下不是啊不是啊那個跟簽證資格沒有關係我再講一次喔好四個人有大有小一起去申請電子簽證然後回來的時候大人都沒問題小朋友的變成一個黑人的簽證"},{"start":10825.339,"end":10851.254,"text":"所以是確實跟資格沒關係是他們發錯了那發錯之後就希望說能夠透過杜拜的辦事處跟當地的政府講一下說這個弄錯了可不可以發一個正確的來這跟資格沒有問題但當時我跟你們國會聯絡人聯繫一個科長他說他們沒有辦法叫我去找一個旅行社那我就說那你總是要去聯繫一下嘛然後就不了了之那這會讓人家覺得外交部都在推工作嘛"},{"start":10852.15,"end":10875.499,"text":"所以旅行社幫他辦啦所以那像是我們這個叫旅行社外交是不是啦我覺得雙軌OK我可以接受就是民間公家一起處理但是全部堆給民間我們問說那杜拜辦事處處理得怎麼樣說哎呀會處理會處理官寮的要死最後不了了之連回應都沒有部長你可以接受嗎那我上次來質詢你說你覺得這樣也不妥"},{"start":10876.039,"end":10888.535,"text":"對啊 要集民所集嘛那你現在又扯到說是資格不符你根本沒有搞清楚狀況嘛他們先前是說因為那個不滿不大不然我希望你這個事情去追查 去處理好不好給我一個回覆好不好為什麼你們的國會聯絡員會講 而且是科長欸"},{"start":10893.301,"end":10906.091,"text":"國會聯絡人如果不想做國會聯絡的話你可以給他調別單位啊怎麼會說給你一個旅行社叫你自己去聯繫然後請你們聯絡杜拜的那個住處然後就不了了之你們國會聯絡人可以這樣子嗎來這邊應付喔"},{"start":10909.545,"end":10914.208,"text":"國會聯絡人在嗎不用浪費時間了部長我希望我下次還會再來問請你處理之後我現在來問你陳儲的狀況因為你部長你在你這邊的態度也會上行下效嘛大家就會覺得說我的態度"},{"start":10925.134,"end":10949.983,"text":"跟你一樣啦 就急民所急苦民所苦所以在外交事務上來找我們我們都要當作這是國人嘛在外面的時候有一些遇到困難不管怎麼樣我們就是說旅行社當然他辦簽證我們要讓他也能夠來辦但是我們自己能夠幫忙什麼盡量的不要就是好像是說好像是對啊 他到後來都完全沒有回我我問說住處連都怎麼樣不了了之啊 兇得要命欸"},{"start":10950.981,"end":10966.713,"text":"是喔那部長你現在這個態度下面覺得說反正因為我們的部長也是很會推很官僚啊無所謂啊所以就繼續啦你今天要宣誓嘛你接林佳龍當部長以後外交部從此不官僚苦民說苦我跟委員一樣都是民意代表出身那我們接到客訴啊"},{"start":10970.336,"end":10994.263,"text":"我們都當作 國威聯絡就是沒有嘛我現在只是平常找你們 但我找不到部長嘛找聯絡人 聯絡人這種嘴臉那我們只能利用質詢的時候公開來講啊那現在已經告訴你第二次了 你還是一副無所謂的樣子請你去了解狀況好不好部長好下一次我還是會來問 說明一下我還是會來問 然後為什麼會處理成這樣是那部長我對你是有期待啦"},{"start":10995.063,"end":11016.2,"text":"因為你也做過民代嘛你做過立委嘛那如果連做過民代做過立委的部長領導的外交部都這麼官僚不處理事情那我們對外交部還有什麼期待你可以接受嗎那請你下次來不要又回答一個好像不知道狀況的答案可以嗎其實我知道這四位是誰啦"},{"start":11017.128,"end":11034.082,"text":"很重要的人啦重要不重要無關啦我現在沒有特別講他重要或不重要他講的是過程啦你不知道他是誰的時候都要很重視部長這跟是誰無關不用去影射現在是外交部處理的態度不要什麼都政治語言啦"},{"start":11034.522,"end":11058.977,"text":"沒有什麼政治原因我跟委員一樣齁那個事情後來人家也透過別的方式解決我現在講的是一個態度今天可能是A明天可能是B啊後天可能是C啊如果每次找外交部出一事那因為委員齁這件事情已經過去那我來跟委員報告就是說我的態度啦齁我希望我的同仁在接到這個案子的時候當作自己的事齁幫忙找解決方法"},{"start":11059.517,"end":11064.379,"text":"那旅行社幫忙辦我們大家旅行社知道不是旅行社幫忙辦但是我們辦處能夠怎麼樣去協助這個不是幫忙辦最近有一個人家已經在網路上做電子簽證自己已經申請了是因為對方傳錯了只是要去溝通說你搞錯了是不是可以傳出正確的這個人申辦這簽證"},{"start":11079.444,"end":11087.471,"text":"跟他是誰然後跟什麼都無關所以扯東扯西就是你們在掩蓋的官僚不然你那種態度我也是覺得很失敗這種情況我是必須要多講比如我去比利時假日然後有我們的國人丟掉了這個護照來辦理20分鐘就辦好"},{"start":11097.479,"end":11112.924,"text":"有的公務人員很棒我們稱讚嘛如果有做不好的我們要檢討但是我現在就把沒有做好的地方你去扯說重不重要所以不是都不好啦政治語言真的很多有一些做得不夠好的要改進有些做得好的我們要鼓勵而且我跟你講他們已經透過"},{"start":11114.284,"end":11139.895,"text":"這個問題是後來用過民間的方式解決了嘛但是我現在講的是萬一其他不重要的人如果你會分重要不重要的話那下次有不重要的人遇到一樣狀況 外交部是不是一樣都一樣要當作很重要我們這個選民服務或是公司的客服那你剛剛去扯重要不重要幹嘛我覺得因為部長高度了還在講選舉語言希望我的態度我已經講了那請你處理嘛那你請你處理啦"},{"start":11142.316,"end":11168.172,"text":"因為服務業只要更好也沒有最好大家不斷的精進以後同仁就是外交部外交部也是服務業要有這個精神可是我遇到的好像就不是很服務業當然要講一套做一套我們一般民眾最討厭是口惠實不至話講得很漂亮實際上不是這樣那就是政治語言各案發生的時候不然他的怎麼樣我們都是要好好去檢視一下那下次可以把這個過程"},{"start":11170.773,"end":11191.268,"text":"跟我在講一下嗎就是後續我怕委員我們講太細這個個案就跑出來了不是我是說怎麼處理這個SOP啦你一直故意去扯那個個案因為個案有好有壞嘛有時候比利時那個很好這個個案不管他是誰他就是大人小孩一起去申請簽證電子簽證也沒有麻煩你們"},{"start":11192.409,"end":11215.411,"text":"只是說杜拜那邊傳了一個電子簽證是錯的希望說透過住處去溝通一下就是這麼簡單也沒有簽證資格不符的問題也沒有叫你們外交部做什麼特權的問題就是一般人希望尋求外交部的協助但是我聯繫的狀況外交部就是一副就是就是沒下文叫大家去找旅行社就是這麼簡單不用扯東扯西我現在只是問你的態度"},{"start":11216.352,"end":11239.148,"text":"我跟委員的態度是一樣的你要把他當作自己的事來做你自己就會很緊張趕快去解決嘛那你怎麼會預測誰重要誰不重要咧你就是想要把他導到說好像哎呀這個人是不是有特權一點都沒有特權好不好一點都沒有不管他是誰啦背景不管怎樣我們都要服務好"},{"start":11240.669,"end":11261.364,"text":"上次我還說我期待你然後今天你又給我扯到什麼那個是 影射說好像那個是不得了的什麼人也沒有什麼多不得了啦只是可能你們是不是有認識的 我不曉得啦也沒有什麼多不得了 但是那政治語言沒必要啦再來部長我想跟您請教一下賴總統不是要找那個韓院長喝咖啡嗎日本月中旬是不是"},{"start":11262.691,"end":11286.308,"text":"當然是出國前那這一次因為我看到很多黨政人士 媒體報 黨政人士對外講說這是朝野和諧 和解的意義那請問一下 因為就我了解 應該是任何人代表台灣去慶賀應該總統都會接見一下嘛 勉勵一下嘛然後告知一些任務嘛 大概是這樣嘛 對不對"},{"start":11288.323,"end":11313.244,"text":"當然不一定啦 不一定 那還有什麼因為有些是出去前 有些是回來後有一些有沒有 這個情況不太一樣但這一次總統是很慎重 認為說請韓院長來率團所以大家就與台灣不管是外交或其他的事情可以聊聊你說還會聊外交以外其他的事情是不是"},{"start":11314.105,"end":11342.902,"text":"就是聊了當然就是就是大家都很自由啊什麼啦講話有沒有聽得懂嘛外交是內政的延長對這個跑到一分呢所以你的意思是說不好意思我幫你收斂一下你的意思是說一般來講的話出訪前會找來大概是主要是講出訪的事但是因為這一次可能會比較不一樣可能會聊一下聊有關於出訪之外的有關於內政的東西沒有沒有我不是這個意思我就一見面"},{"start":11343.642,"end":11366.981,"text":"是沒有什麼說什麼人聊什麼不能聊當然主要是要就這一次的我們的代表團去慶賀的事情嘛主要是慶賀的事情嘛一定是的啊那因為這一次韓院長去那當然也算是外交的一種嘛因為您一直提到說應該要各種外交嘛總和外交嘛國會外交也是嘛那請問外交部這邊是提供了什麼協助嗎"},{"start":11367.381,"end":11391.611,"text":"因為我看到之前好像有院長去的時候外交部也有準備辦首禮然後應該也是有幫忙聯繫一些就是當地的行政官員嘛或者國會議員我們外交部會做基本的這個所有行政作業當然這個代表團因為他是立法院長他也許也有一些他自己就是說就是到那邊去他希望"},{"start":11393.271,"end":11417.644,"text":"能夠 能夠 能夠盡一份力量的地方嘛這個我們 我有看到公文啦 都有啦所以我們外交部的基本 該做什麼你是說有看到他的行程是不是不是啦 就是說 當然有一些 有一些增加的一些項目啦 或者是禮物啦 或者是什麼我們都會做準備啦 基本我請我們市長來跟你詳細報告啦 來"},{"start":11421.594,"end":11439.635,"text":"我們現在針對慶賀團的行程都還在安排當中,那就是慶賀團出去之後,如果團長這邊有一些其他的指示,我們如果是跟潛力符合,那也是符合外交禮儀的,我們也都會盡量來配合辦理,那通常訪團出去的話,我們也都會幫忙準備備禮,這個也都是會繼續做的。"},{"start":11442.236,"end":11463.91,"text":"所以他就是說以他為主啦他行程他會自己安排但是如果希望外交部協助的部分外交部才會去幫他安排親熱團的行程是由外交部還有我們的駐外單位來一起來安排因為這個親熱團是我們國家的親熱團那現在有現在有應該都不能講嘛對不對都還在安排還在安排當中OK那最後我想問部長所以你覺得這一個"},{"start":11465.612,"end":11492.921,"text":"韓院長去對於朝野未來和諧您自己個人認為有幫助嗎會不會因為現在大家會害怕嘛會不會見完面之後忽然又翻臉的以前朝野常常遇到這種狀況不會啦我想總統已經講很清楚就是這個去代表國家去慶賀我們外交部會全力來配合所有這些行政作業好謝謝"},{"start":11495.939,"end":11498.902,"text":"謝謝燕子委員 部長請回鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在賴世保 賴世保 賴世保委員不在陳培宇 陳培宇 陳培宇委員不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":11519.059,"end":11537.732,"text":"已登記質詢的委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者請相關單位已書面於兩週內提供委員另約定期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束 散會"},{"start":11550.644,"end":11551.064,"text":"七方?七方?"}]}},{"id":"158630","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158630","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5afd1fb059652fd2b5efe2b3915ec9263671cb7f8abfc27ff0ed430b54b12589a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:30:28 - 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上次我在這邊質詢提到一個杜拜辦事處的事情就是你們的國會聯絡人說杜拜辦事處沒辦法協助國人去解決有關於簽證發錯的問題要自己去找旅行社後來你也有承認說可能這樣做不妥後來有去了解或是做出相關處置"},{"start":28.246,"end":43.461,"text":"因為這個是涉及到他的簽證資格來我請我同仁再說明一下部長那個跟簽證資格沒有關係我再講一次四個人有大有小一起去申請電子簽證然後回來的時候大人都沒問題小朋友的變成一個黑人的簽證"},{"start":44.582,"end":70.498,"text":"所以是確實跟資格沒關係是他們發錯了那發錯之後就希望說能夠透過杜拜的辦事處跟當地的政府講一下說這個弄錯了可不可以發一個正確的來這跟資格沒有問題但當時我跟你們國會聯絡人聯繫一個科長他說他們沒有辦法叫我去找一個旅行社那我就說那你總是要去聯繫一下嘛然後就不了了之那這會讓人家覺得外交部都在推工作嘛"},{"start":71.4,"end":94.731,"text":"你們在旅行社幫他辦啦所以那像是我們這個叫旅行社外交是不是啦我覺得雙軌OK我可以接受就是民間公家一起處理但是全部堆給民間我們問說那杜拜辦事處處理得怎麼樣說哎呀會處理會處理官寮的要死最後不了了之連回應都沒有部長你可以接受嗎那我上次來質詢你說你覺得這樣也不妥"},{"start":95.291,"end":107.775,"text":"對啊 要吉民所及嘛那你現在又扯到說是資格不符你根本沒有搞清楚狀況嘛他們先前是說因為那個不滿不滿不是啦 我希望你這個事情去追查去處理好不好 給我一個回覆好不好為什麼你們的國會聯絡員會講 而且是科長欸"},{"start":112.536,"end":125.821,"text":"國會聯絡人如果不想做國會聯絡的話你可以給他調別的單位啊怎麼會說給你一個旅行社叫你自己去聯繫然後請你們聯絡杜拜的那個住處然後就不了了之你們國會聯絡人可以這樣子嗎來這邊應付喔"},{"start":128.794,"end":133.457,"text":"國會聯絡人在嗎不用浪費時間了部長我希望我下次還會再來問請你處理之後我現在來問你陳儲的狀況因為你部長你在你這邊的態度也會上行下效嘛大家就會覺得說我的態度"},{"start":144.384,"end":169.229,"text":"跟你一樣啦 就急民所急苦民所苦所以在外交事務上來找我們我們都要當作這是國人嘛在外面的時候有一些遇到困難不管怎麼樣我們就是說旅行社當然他辦簽證我們要讓他也能夠來辦但是我們自己能夠幫忙什麼盡量的不要就是好像是說好像是對啊 他到後來都完全沒有回我我問說住處連都怎麼樣不了了之啊 兇得要命欸"},{"start":170.23,"end":185.96,"text":"是喔那部長你現在這個態度下面覺得說反正因為我們的部長也是很會推很官僚啊無所謂啊所以就繼續啦你今天要宣誓嘛你接林佳龍當部長以後外交部從此不官僚苦民說苦我跟委員一樣都是民意代表出身那我們接到客訴啊"},{"start":189.582,"end":213.509,"text":"我們都當作...那你們的國威聯絡就是沒有嘛我現在只是平常找你們 但我找不到部長嘛找聯絡人 聯絡人這種嘴臉那我們只能利用質詢的時候公開來講啊那現在已經告訴你第二次了 你還是一副無所謂的樣子請你去了解狀況好不好 部長好下一次我還是會來問 說明一下我還是會來問 然後為什麼會處理成這樣是那 部長我對你是有期待啦"},{"start":214.309,"end":235.446,"text":"因為你也做過民代嘛你做過立委嘛那如果連做過民代做過立委的部長領導的外交部都這麼官僚不處理事情那我們對外交部還有什麼期待你可以接受嗎那請你下次來不要又回答一個好像不知道狀況的答案可以嗎其實我知道這四位是誰啦"},{"start":236.377,"end":253.332,"text":"很重要的人啦重要不重要無關啦我現在沒有特別講他重要或不重要我講的是過程啦你不知道他是誰的時候都要很重視部長這跟是誰無關不用去影射現在是外交部處理的態度不要什麼都政治語言啦"},{"start":253.772,"end":278.226,"text":"沒有什麼政治原因我現在都沒有講是誰那個事情後來人家也透過別的方式解決我現在講的是一個態度今天可能是A明天可能是B啊後天可能是C啊如果每次找外交部處理事件那因為委員這件事情已經過去那我來跟委員報告就是說我的態度啦我希望我的同仁在接到這個案子的時候當作自己的事幫忙找解決方法"},{"start":278.766,"end":288.114,"text":"那旅行社幫忙辦我們大家旅行社知道不是旅行社幫忙辦但是我們辦處能夠怎麼樣去協助這個不是幫忙辦最近有一個人家已經在網路上做電子簽證自己已經申請了是因為對方傳錯了只是要去溝通說你搞錯了是不是可以傳個正確的這個人申辦這簽證跟他是誰然後跟什麼都無關所以扯東扯西就是你們在掩蓋你的官僚"},{"start":304.668,"end":328.72,"text":"不然你那種態度我也是覺得很神悲啦這種情況我是必須要多講比如我去比利時假日啊然後有我們的國人丟掉了這個護照來辦理20分鐘就辦好對啦有的公務人員很棒我們稱讚嘛如果有做不好的我們要檢討但是我現在就把沒有做好的地方你去扯說重不重要我覺得你這政治語言政治語言真的很多耶有一些做得不夠好的要改進"},{"start":329.44,"end":353.212,"text":"阿有些做得好的我要鼓勵阿而且我跟你講他們已經透過這個問題是後來用過民間的方式解決了嘛但是我現在講的是萬一其他不重要的人如果你會分重要不重要的話那下次有不重要的人遇到一樣狀況外交部是不是一樣都一樣要當作很重要對嘛那我們這個選民服務或是客服那你剛剛去扯重要不重要幹嘛阿我覺得"},{"start":354.212,"end":372.199,"text":"因為部長高度了還在講選舉語言希望我的態度我已經講了那請你處理嘛那你請你處理啦因為服務業只要更好也沒有最好大家不斷的精進以後同仁就是外交部外交部也是服務業啊要有這個精神可是我遇到的好像就不是很服務業"},{"start":373.659,"end":400.331,"text":"當然要講一套做一套我們一般民眾最討厭是口繪時不治話講得很漂亮實際上不是這樣那就是政治語言各案發生的時候不然他的怎麼樣我們都是要好好去檢視一下那下次可以把這個過程跟我再講一下嗎就是後續我怕委員我們講太細這個個案就跑出來了不是我是說怎麼處理這個SOP啦你一直故意去扯那個個案"},{"start":401.551,"end":426.218,"text":"因為個案有好有壞嘛有時候比利時那個很好這個個案不管他是誰他就是大人小孩一起去申請簽證電子簽證也沒有麻煩你們只是說杜拜那邊傳了一個電子簽證是錯的希望說透過住處去溝通一下就是這麼簡單也沒有簽證資格不符的問題也沒有叫你們外交部做什麼特權的問題就是一般人希望尋求外交部的協助"},{"start":426.698,"end":439.184,"text":"但是我聯繫的狀況外交部就是一副就是就是沒下文叫大家去找旅行社就是這麼簡單不用扯東扯西我現在只是問你的態度所以外交部是不是我跟委員的態度是一樣的那你怎麼會去扯誰重要誰不重要勒"},{"start":448.948,"end":476.18,"text":"你們就是想要把他導到說好像哎呀這個人是不是有特權一點都沒有特權好不好一點都沒有不管他是誰啦他還是誰嘛對啦背景不管怎樣我們都要服務好所以部長你這樣上次我還說我期待你然後今天你又給我扯到什麼那個是影射說好像那個是不得了的什麼人也沒有什麼多不得了啦只是可能你們是不是有認識的什麼我不曉得啦也沒有什麼多不得了但是那你政治語言沒必要啦再來部長我想跟你請教一下"},{"start":477.695,"end":505.546,"text":"賴總統不是要找韓院長喝咖啡嗎 是本月中旬是不是當然是出國前那這一次因為我看到很多黨政人士 媒體報 黨政人士對外講說這是朝野和諧 和解的意義那請問一下 因為就我了解應該是任何人代表台灣去慶賀應該總統都會接見一下嘛 勉勵一下嘛然後告知一些任務嘛 大概是這樣嘛 對不對"},{"start":507.573,"end":532.49,"text":"當然不一定啦不一定 那還有什麼因為有些是出去前 有些是回來後有一些有沒有 這個情況不太一樣但這一次總統是很慎重 認為說請韓院長來率團所以大家就與台灣不管是外交或其他的事情可以聊聊你說還會聊外交以外其他的事情是不是"},{"start":533.352,"end":536.551,"text":"就是聊了當然就是大家都很自由啊"},{"start":537.475,"end":565.584,"text":"什麼啦 有人聽得懂嗎外交是內政的延長所以你的意思是說 不好意思我幫你收斂一下你的意思是說一般來講的話出訪前會找來大概主要是講出訪的事但是因為這一次可能會比較不一樣可能會聊一些要聊有關於出訪之外的有關於內政的東西我不是這個意思我是一見面是沒有什麼說什麼人聊什麼不能聊當然主要是要"},{"start":566.764,"end":586.233,"text":"就這一次的我們的代表團去慶賀的事情嘛主要是慶賀的事情嘛一定是的啊那因為這一次韓院長去那當然也算是外交的一種嘛因為您一直提到說應該要各種外交嘛總和外交嘛國會外交也是嘛那請問外交部這邊是提供了什麼協助嗎"},{"start":586.633,"end":610.083,"text":"因為我看到之前好像游樂總去的時候外交部也有準備辦首禮然後應該也是有幫忙聯繫一些就是當地的行政官員嘛或者國會議員我們外交部會做基本的這個所有行政作業當然這個代表團因為他是立法院長他也許也有一些他自己就是說就是到那邊去他要"},{"start":610.723,"end":634.655,"text":"希望能夠盡一份力量的地方嘛這個我有看到公文啦 都有啦你說有看到它的行程是不是不是啦 就是說當然有一些增加的一些項目啦或者是禮物啦 或者是什麼我們都會做準備啦 基本我請我們市長來跟你詳細報告啦 來"},{"start":640.863,"end":659.169,"text":"我們現在針對慶賀團的行程都還在安排當中,那就是慶賀團出去之後,如果團長這邊有一些其他的指示,我們如果是跟潛力符合,那也是符合外交禮儀的,我們也都會盡量來配合辦理,那通常訪團出去的話,我們也都會幫忙準備備禮,這個也都是會繼續做的。"},{"start":661.485,"end":683.153,"text":"所以他就是說以他為主啦他行程他會自己安排但是如果希望外交部協助的部分外交部才會去幫他安排親熱團的行程是由外交部還有我們的駐外單位來一起來安排因為這個親熱團是我們國家的親熱團那現在有現在有應該都不能講嘛對不對都還在安排還在安排當中OK那最後我想問部長所以你覺得這一個"},{"start":684.861,"end":712.181,"text":"韓院長去對於朝野未來和諧您自己個人認為有幫助嗎會不會因為現在大家會害怕嘛會不會見完面之後忽然又翻臉的以前朝野常常遇到這種狀況不會啦我想總統已經講很清楚就是這個去代表國家去慶賀我們外交部會全力來配合所有這些行政作業好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158658","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158658","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e56eb413e01b1f963dc921d2cbf1168e40c298e4a85a6a9cd5a950302871400d155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"13:31:52 - 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Base來制定政策 健康政策那我想特別感謝陳委員在嘉義縣關心這些老人的照顧特別的敵人和中部這兩個地方都很需要"},{"start":180.183,"end":195.456,"text":"這是怎麼來的?這一定是中央去評估整體評估,把資源用在刀口上這每一個決策都是後面有多少專家做健康的評估數據怎麼樣做整個全國的醫療平權"},{"start":199.179,"end":217.316,"text":"那當然哪個地方需要我們就去補他我想這樣的一個佈置會比較周全性也會讓全國的人民得到更好的照顧所以剛剛委員爭取的這兩個地方真的是非常的to the point這就是中央有這個領域來整個來評估評估來做這個事情所以未來如果中央這個經費比較少的時候我們是不可以落實"},{"start":225.509,"end":254.234,"text":"我們由國家的一個政策來佈置這個部分可能的確會受到影響那地方上我們也期待地方上能夠播出如果已經裁劃法過了就是播出應該能夠播出這樣的那個地方來補助地方但是這樣的一個比較可能從我們的立場來講會比較零散比較沒有辦法由中央來佈置讓在醫療的評審上面可能會比較需要擔心"},{"start":255.314,"end":273.471,"text":"謝謝部長那我最後再因為時間已經到但是我最後再補充對於國家的整體的重視的政策我們最重要的是長照政策那一個縣市他能夠規劃的通常就是區域性的那他可能沒有辦法吸引到全國的最多的人才"},{"start":274.292,"end":288.548,"text":"來進入到最需要偏向的地方所以為什麼說中央的資源很重要就是因為它至少可以做一些分配上面來去彌補一個縣市可能沒有辦法獨自完成不可以自己完成的這些計畫所以這一次的財化法"},{"start":288.908,"end":314.221,"text":"他這一個通過以後那對於地方的影響當然是甚大那我還是希望說至少在我能力的範圍內我一樣還是會盡量跟中央來全力爭取那現在我還是再跟大家報告一下跟所有的民眾也要講一下說國家的預算就是這麼多當你多出去一部分給地方那地方政府也要付出他相應的責任那我相信我們縣府一定會全力在照顧老人的部分但是其他縣市"},{"start":314.841,"end":334.588,"text":"如果他把這個照護這個我們老闆的伯婚來去分到其他的地方的話那可能就會影響我們希望說公共建設的費用放在公共建設老人福利的費用放在老人福利不要最後拿到經費放在放煙火或者是其他作為這種喜慶上面的節慶式上面的應用這樣就比較不好好謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"158657","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158657","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5636b3321c5825468c921d2cbf1168e40c298e4a85a6a9cd579b5a1982509e2505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"13:18:44 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這還沒有他現在給你回覆的機會嗎他現在是把他覺得需要說明的項目所以給你們一個月的時間說明嘛那如果一個月以後的說明你們的說明沒有辦法說服審計部的話錢是審計部負責追討還是你們自己要去要回來"},{"start":90.307,"end":101.692,"text":"應該是有勞動部那勞動部到時候等到你們回覆審計部之後審計部再判定出來的結果以後就我們的立場很清楚"},{"start":102.876,"end":125.392,"text":"所有備不到農用的錢每一分每一毫全部都要追回來那現在在你們回覆審計部的程序當中我們尊重那請部長做好準備下個會期因為這個會期顯然是來不及下個會期開議的第一件事情我們就要看到被認定"},{"start":127.998,"end":149.864,"text":"不放挪用的錢追討的計畫跟進度可以嗎跟黃委員說明齁就是就像我剛剛前面說的會有一個跟審議部確認的過程剛講過的話不要再重複浪費我的時間該要啟動法定要追回的程序的我們就會去做這件事情沒有關係啊因為齁我們立法部門在監督的時候部長有當過委員嘛"},{"start":151.224,"end":164.032,"text":"我們沒有辦法因為行政官員空洞的承諾就相信嘛所以我要有具體的東西嘛請你準備好 開議的時候這不是空洞的承諾開議的時候就會跟你要這個東西好 現在換衛福部部長"},{"start":165.703,"end":193.899,"text":"來 部長上一次你們衛福部做那個霸凌報告說要帶來給我看我看了以後我直接跟部長報告四個字叫做慘不忍睹慘不忍睹你口中所講的最高規格的調查從報告的內容報告的格式報告的結論我再跟部長報告四個字慘不忍睹什麼最高規格的調查報告"},{"start":195.12,"end":219.291,"text":"附件的部分可能會涉及到當事人的程序我先不論啦我看完整份報告了以後我心裡只有一個狐疑啊這個是要去特定誰誰都沒辦法特定啊這個會洩什麼密什麼密也都不會洩漏啊我一會洩漏的秘密是什麼我跟部長報告我一會洩漏的秘密就是衛福部的調查報告竟然做的如此之爛"},{"start":220.732,"end":241.396,"text":"這是我的結論這是我的結論部長你可能不同意我的結論所有的外服部做出來的報告啊超高規格非常詳細句細米疑論證清楚利潤證據充足但我看完了以後就不是這個樣子啦所以我只有簡單一個問題電話報告要不要公開"},{"start":246.036,"end":271.892,"text":"諸件不用調查報告要不要公開 給我yes or no的答案就可以了報告委員 那個委員非常感謝您的我想您也在CORNEA那邊嘛 對不對量化質化這邊 大家相關都已經做過相關研究我們這個調查報告就是BAS在這個方法上面 是有量化也有質化的 BAS的方法非常的粗糙 內容非常的爛請你針對問題回答 調查報告要不要公告主席 是不是可以請你制止他"},{"start":273.598,"end":283.26,"text":"我在問問題的時候可不可以不要插嘴是不是可以請主席清楚的告訴列席的行政官員在未來委員會尋答的規矩是什麼他講話的時候時間不算部長調查報告要不要公開yes or no 給我一個答案"},{"start":296.753,"end":306.921,"text":"我想非常感謝黃委員的指教,那我們今天其實也經過了再度的早上討論,也透過了互代的結議針對我們現在的一個大家覺得有指教的地方,我們會去做檢討"},{"start":317.252,"end":335.064,"text":"所以又給你們兩個月做檢討喔沒有關係啦 衛華委員會這邊所做的決議我尊重衛華委員會委員的決議啊那我清楚的跟部長講行政調查報告不公開一定會反映在台灣民眾黨黨團預算提案上"},{"start":337.557,"end":361.568,"text":"我這樣講很清楚了啦調查報告不公開一定會反映在台灣民眾黨黨團預算審查預算審查的內容之上我很清楚的跟部長表達了這樣子清楚的訴求那一天你們的署長拿報告來給我看我老實講我看了快吐血我看了快吐血我直接問他一個最直接的問題"},{"start":363.13,"end":388.962,"text":"駐建方的部分有沒有深蹲執行官那天我在這邊問你你說你不是很清楚調查報告要看調查報告結果我看了調查報告一個字都沒提你們拿到那來給我看的同仁我請教他有沒有深蹲執行官這件事情他當場跟我回答是有那我的問題來了那如果有為什麼調查報告半個字都沒有提"},{"start":390.129,"end":411.29,"text":"為什麼調查報告半個字都沒有提他跟我說啊這個齁是因為什麼後來才發現那不就符合您所講的如果有新事實新證據要重啟調查部長我有沒有講錯這個部分我們可以在在下一次的報告裡面再來澄清再來冒 再來釐清"},{"start":412.634,"end":429.214,"text":"就這個部分吼就這個部分第一個啦我還是跟部長勸告報告我看完了啦復健的部分不用公開沒有關係啊你那個報告給全民公平啊看我今天黃國昌在這邊質詢台上面講說那個報告爛的不得了"},{"start":430.793,"end":447.459,"text":"這樣的評價到底是公平還是不公平你如果覺得我講的不公平 你就公開嘛然後我們一般的公民看了以後說 衛福部的報告寫得這麼好這麼詳細 句細米疑還符合你們剛剛什麼量 量化 質化"},{"start":449.459,"end":477.174,"text":"講一堆黃國昌的質詢一點道理都沒有人家衛福部做得這麼棒你竟然說人家調查報告根本不能看受傷的會是我啦不會是衛福部啦所以我還是給部長啊你回去慎重考慮啊看調查報告要不要公開我跟你保證啊你念完了以後不會有什麼個資被洩漏不會有什麼秘密被洩漏唯一會被洩漏的秘密啊"},{"start":478.413,"end":498.194,"text":"就是為什麼衛福部做的這個調查報告品質如此粗糙第二個事情有專業團體來跟我陳情他們陳情是什麼來來來部長這兩個英文名詞是什麼意思你知不知道我沒有要考你英文啦但是你應該很清楚你做過醫生"},{"start":503.409,"end":520.381,"text":"謝謝委員 剛剛我補充一下 不算是沒關係我們已經按照兩個禮拜前的未完的決議 已經是所有的未完的委員我們都有過去跟他報告 我說我們都有經過這樣的過程"},{"start":534.029,"end":551.796,"text":"這個比較一個是在technician的部分那一個可能會比較有一些多一點那個工作的內容那可能有一點點超越optician的那種工作內容這樣子"},{"start":555.558,"end":570.586,"text":"我老實跟你講你應該很熟所以我才一開始說我就沒有要考你英文啦這個是煙光師啦他們來的陳情啦他們說國際社會上基本上都是用什麼都是用automatrists用這個詞那但是什麼啊但是"},{"start":576.109,"end":599.982,"text":"把其他國家都翻譯出來了但是你們衛福部我覺得是不是因為眼科醫師有壓力所以你們一直在英文的名稱上就只願意用optician不願意用optometrist他們要的是前面這個那為什麼他們要前面這個我後來仔細的看人家的訴求也合理其他國家全部都是用這個"},{"start":601.155,"end":625.708,"text":"那結果只有我們的什麼驗光能源法在驗光能源法裡面的驗光師用Optician但是我進一步的去看說你們自己衛福部的統計年報也不是用Optician啊還是用Optimetrist的這個詞我們的總統副總統給人家的賀電也是用Optimetrist"},{"start":626.408,"end":639.589,"text":"那我就覺得很奇怪人家現在因為這個英文訴求的事情跟整個國際上面的交流都產生了障礙這個事情應該他們都有跟衛福部澄清嘛"},{"start":640.458,"end":665.025,"text":"那你是有眼科醫師的壓力是嗎沒有我們完全沒有因為我當維護部以後才注意到這個現在這個事情有結論了嗎還是要再研議完全在專業他們1月3號我好多人跟他們1月3號眼科醫學會跟燕光師大家坐下來談嗎坐下來談在中興醫院坐下來因為2019年在過那個燕光師法的時候那是我第一次在立法院"},{"start":666.005,"end":679.645,"text":"眼科醫師有眼科醫師的看法然後驗光師有他們的看法那個時候我還記得青島東路的時候來了一大堆非常年輕的那個驗光師還有相關科系的學生來陳情"},{"start":681.508,"end":700.961,"text":"那個時候我們大家都有去去聲援他們的訴求那眼科醫師的考慮我們了解如果牽涉到醫療專業那當然是眼科醫師的專業範圍嘛那但是有關於眼光師他們所提出來的訴求看其他國家所用的英文專業名詞看起來也沒有不當"},{"start":702.021,"end":728.439,"text":"我們自己的總統、副總統都這樣發賀電給人家了你總不要說要搞到好像蔡英文跟賴清德發賀電給人家說一套自己背地裡面又幹另外一套這樣子不好啦這樣不好啦 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白班也很累啊我們常常講不換寡換不均嘛那他就會有相對的剝奪感嘛好 那沒有關係 部長我只是提醒說我們不要去創造了一些策略"},{"start":105.515,"end":134.408,"text":"那明明也加薪了 明明也獎勵了結果到最後呢 大家還是覺得有所差異 並不滿意我覺得這是很可惜的但是我要講的是說大家最在乎的其實還是人力這個最重要那我自己因為是屏東人所以我也去看過衡旅啊 布屏啊或者是退府會的屏容啊 龍泉分院我講一句實在話我是至少我覺得啦就是政府部門 公部門"},{"start":135.188,"end":154.202,"text":"所設立的這些醫院應該來做領頭羊來徵聘護理師所以請教一下部長這些部立醫院有沒有要徵聘我想各個醫院都在努力徵聘公立醫院有規劃多少要增加500多個職缺嗎"},{"start":165.615,"end":185.564,"text":"我想這個資料我也很想了解我的意思只是說這個要提醒我希望再去盤整一下因為我聽到基層其實還是會有很多意見那這些獎勵策略我覺得一定要好好的想怎麼樣符合基層的期待畢竟我們現在是趨於下風"},{"start":186.764,"end":209.507,"text":"很多偏鄉醫院就是招不到醫護嗎我想這個部分我們要好好的檢討那另外一個部分我想部長您之前也跟我們一同努力把原住民族健康法拼出來了那在去年很高興去年的10月我看到其中一個執法叫原住民族健康照護人員的培育禁用及流用辦法也出來了其中"},{"start":210.067,"end":219.819,"text":"第10條這個第一項他有提到寬裂鎖匣原住民族地區衛生所支援而編制那請教一下部長目前擴編的情形"},{"start":224.601,"end":243.527,"text":"這個第十條的部分寬列這個衛生所編制在兩年前我們國健署就已經有公布在衛生所地區的一個編制應該沒有受到限制也就是說他們有需求相關的醫事人都可以編好啊 那我就請教像那個娜瑪夏就有跟我陳情啊她說他們想要徵聘一位醫師啊"},{"start":245.007,"end":257.441,"text":"會嗎那部分有跟他們提過是可以請真的所以意思就是說他們沒有提出來上次去下鄉的時候就有跟他們提過所以他們沒有提出來嗎對他們沒有提出來那是市政府的問題囉"},{"start":260.642,"end":281.07,"text":"我要講這個是說很多原鄉都不知道啦縣市不知道啦這個部分可能還是要加強宣導好不好你看都已經有資格啦可是他們不知道還在跟我們陳情這很奇怪好不好那另外同條第三項會提供留任獎金就是六年以後繼續留下來的請問對象醫師護理師目前是針對醫師的部分目前是針對醫"},{"start":288.092,"end":298.16,"text":"醫師的部分 那就糟糕啦 就我講的啊不患寡患不均啊明明是好事 結果另外一邊沒有這樣好嗎這是針對工會 工會醫師如果細留任於該地區"},{"start":307.1,"end":334.229,"text":"服務期滿的我們鼓勵啦是啊 那護理師呢我想這個是中長城計畫嘛也有核定這個經費再好好想一想因為我都覺得很可惜每次政府有美意但為德不足多可惜啊就會引發另外一種抱怨的聲音不好因為我們偏鄉教育條例也有9任獎金啊大家也在考慮學校不是只有老師嘛護理師校護也算嘛我們也要考慮進去我們來N1"},{"start":335.93,"end":361.381,"text":"那另外一個就是社會救助法也是衛福部主管的一個法條在其中第四條就是有關低收入戶那最重要的是第四項就是所謂的家庭財產包括動產及不動產其金額應分別定之這個就是取決於他能不能獲得這個資格那請教一下部長就是這個所謂的財產收入有沒有包括社會救助的給付"},{"start":365.374,"end":379.823,"text":"非常感謝那個委員這邊的那個槌尋其實我們現在目前社會救助法我們現在目前確實有把這一個我覺得應該要做一些調整我們現在目前的整個這一個更多的方案我們現在目前已經送到院那邊我們是希望就是說這部分應該我們應該應該社會救助應該不會市長是這樣因為這個問題其實因為"},{"start":387.348,"end":413.272,"text":"之前105年開始發放禁法補償也問過啦那108年的時候法務部有一個回覆含釋他是說依法的這種現金啊 給付或補助不得扣押讓與或提供擔保品那如果還是強制執行的話有違政府發放之目的所以這個部分我知道的是後來這幾年是讓各縣市自行認定我覺得不夠好啦"},{"start":414.112,"end":429.386,"text":"我是希望說比照法扶基金會他就寫得很清楚法扶基金會誰可以申請他也有把這個排除掉就是淨法補償收入他很明定所以我是希望說你們也可以來明定好不好不要讓各縣市認定好不好包委我們這個我們來演繹我想這個確實應該是"},{"start":432.449,"end":444.528,"text":"那市長請教一下上次那個那麼夏我知道也有澄清那個洗腎中心但是我有跟你提到可以去做一個行動的洗腎車你們規劃的如何了"},{"start":445.868,"end":468.481,"text":"我們原鄉太多人要洗腎了這個部分跟衛生局有討論過他們目前是想要協調鄰近的小型的地區醫院或診所他們來承攬承攬這個行動洗腎對 配置或是在一個固定的場合是最適合的那我想說大概兩週內可以來跟我就我今天所關心的來跟我做一個報告好嗎謝謝好 謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":472.918,"end":472.938,"text":"謝謝吳衛仁"}]}},{"id":"158660","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158660","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5aa8c3f758c5c70bec921d2cbf1168e4050eef425ccc1d4dadab12b64c84673915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"13:51:49 - 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部長好 謝謝今天我們這個召委鐵漢柔情 這麼貢心安排今天的題目我相信透過早上那麼多的委員的質詢也了解很多的事情真的要存償記憶的同時也應該有更好的方法或者是策略或者是步驟來解決目前面臨的一些困境"},{"start":46.198,"end":72.947,"text":"不過一開始的時候我還是跟部長請教一下才化法以後造成了一些問題那其次也希望針對兒童健康的研究希望能夠為了未來不管是在施肢或者是在人力或者是在如何能夠保護兒童健康的部分有更好的發展那最後再來談一下這個公立私立醫院這些友善職場的建構的部分"},{"start":75.688,"end":102.626,"text":"我想財務法在最近通過以後雖然還沒有送出立法院可是造成的影響大家也討論的非常非常的多針對於我們在衛福部裡面看到的衝擊部長也有受訪過也提出了一些相關的觀點跟看法這邊也列出了當初部長所擔心的財務法通過以後他可能因為造成的這種衝擊"},{"start":104.707,"end":129.532,"text":"我們也了解28%的金額其實是非常非常的可觀那有包括兒童照顧不孕症補助等等包括第六項的社安網的部件範圍非常的廣那這一部分不知道部長可不可以利用這個機會也再做一些說明讓大家可以更了解未來如何因應才能通過以後"},{"start":130.372,"end":148.708,"text":"這個六項當初所認定可能衝擊蠻大的這個部分利用這個機會讓部長能夠把它具體的說明清楚一點謝謝王委員你看在你隨行的當中很多部門都上來表示都有影響"},{"start":151.429,"end":167.474,"text":"當然從我們開始在健保的挹注方面,其實我們有很多公務在幫忙,預算在幫忙健保如果這個部分,平均起來大概整個預算會少,都可能要38%"},{"start":170.207,"end":194.517,"text":"所以這樣來看不管是健保的挹注不管是國健署的相關的不管是癌症防治法、成人預防保健甚至少子女化的對策人工生殖方面、補治方面其實在國健署也有影響在我們的社福方面當然"},{"start":195.217,"end":210.73,"text":"社安網第二期大概也會影響身心障礙照顧服務的部件總體收入、裝假牙等等等等還有應用高齡社會對策大概都單單政府方面大概就會少了107億"},{"start":213.272,"end":229.458,"text":"所以這樣的情況我們當然會希望爭取政府能夠繼續來支援這些民眾非常重要的事情但是如果財化法以後變成三千多億"},{"start":230.638,"end":244.068,"text":"混到地方區的時候那這個部分是我們比較擔心到時候在資源的爭取上面要怎麼樣來來爭取這樣子我現在這個是東陽跟地方必須要同步共同來討論跟解決"},{"start":245.789,"end":261.742,"text":"就是有了好的這個裁員的同時也希望能夠把事情的分擔作為更合理的分配那這部分就麻煩未來面對這六大衝擊有關於衛福部的相關業務也希望部長能夠提早來因應"},{"start":263.503,"end":287.61,"text":"這是第一部分第二部分其實接著我們想要了解的就是長照3.0即將在今年度編的預算是921億要來做這個相關的醫療跟長照的銜接那這個銜接的部分我們也很擔心今年能夠編這樣的費用再過來裁員的部分"},{"start":288.67,"end":313.539,"text":"相較之下這個裁判法通過以後可能造成的衝擊未來是保險制好呢還是賦稅制比較有機會能夠持續的永續經營等等的問題真的也非常非常的需要衛福部這邊提早來規劃那不知道目前有沒有想法或者是初步的規劃的方向好 謝謝王委員我想在長照2.0邁向3.0當中"},{"start":316.141,"end":331.338,"text":"我們基本上服務的長照人數多了好幾倍以我們現在去年的收入大概有1200多億所以大概的財源是相當的目前是相當的穩定的那所以未來要"},{"start":332.279,"end":348.157,"text":"走向哪一個制度,當然大家都可以財源從不來,大家都可以來更加的討論以更穩定財源,我想這個長照是長久需要的我們的社府專家李次,有沒有什麼補充?"},{"start":349.958,"end":365.444,"text":"非常感謝黃正旭委員對我們這個問題的關心我想其實我們現在目前我們現在目前當然是稅收啦那我也跟委員報告我們現在目前其實就整個政府現在目前的財源老實說長照基金的部分其實事實上是穩定在成長"},{"start":366.084,"end":386.166,"text":"我們現在目前是不是沒有問題那當然就是說確實這兩種財務的處理方式我想都是各有利弊但是不管怎麼樣我想從過去蔡英文總統到賴清德總統最重要的一個事情就是說我們要一定要讓我們的整個資源分資源佈置資源的這個部件必須是平均"},{"start":386.787,"end":406.914,"text":"而且是讓每一個人每一個國民都能夠享有應該有的服務的服務我舉一個最簡單例子我們長照我們的健保1994年通過之前事實上也運用了大概快快快十幾年然後那時候部長還有您基本上還有看總召我們當時醫療網計劃都是在在布建你不能夠你為了辦保險而辦保險你辦了保險"},{"start":408.594,"end":435.219,"text":"結果偏鄉卻沒有服務我想這個是這是不對的所以現在目前最重要還是資源部件而我們現在目前政府從2.0到3.0全部都是在全部來衝整個資源部件包括我想大家有非常關心的重症的部分那我跟委員報告兩個重點第一個我們現在目前的財源基本上是無餘另外第二個我們現在目前最重要重點應該是還是服務部件而且讓民眾找得到用得到看得到我想這是最重要的一個整個方式謝謝"},{"start":435.839,"end":453.699,"text":"好謝謝因為我們知道這個進入到這個超高齡社會以後相信這方面的需求會越來越多那再過來關心到的就是兒童剛剛我們關心的是私能的長者或者是需要做這份服務的長者那現在我們也了解兒童健康"},{"start":455.141,"end":470.231,"text":"是國家非常重要必須要積極來投入的因為我們少子化影響之下如何能夠讓這些兒童都能夠順利的健康成長那這邊有訂了一個硬指標這個硬指標就是兒童死亡率要從5.3%下降到4.0%"},{"start":476.876,"end":499.21,"text":"那這個是一個很需要大家一起來努力的部分這個我想賴總統他對大家的期許也非常的高那我們也知道其實目前面臨的困境很多的同時那台大而一他們很希望能夠有更多的資源的投入也希望能夠透過研究包括成立兒童健康研究中心"},{"start":500.691,"end":525.954,"text":"來讓這樣的研究成果可以反映到實習的照顧的部分那這一邊當然就會牽扯到教育部牽扯到衛福部所以目前有沒有適當的規劃或者是目前除了教育部已經核可的這個兒醫的兒童健康研究中心的同時那未來有沒有機會讓它變成是一個重要的發展的方向"},{"start":528.625,"end":547.291,"text":"好謝謝王委員這個大概會兩方面來談來報告第一個就是說兒童醫療是我們要重視的那所以在優化兒童醫療計畫裡面其實在台灣有大概幾乎所有的醫學中心裡面都有成立"},{"start":548.708,"end":566.768,"text":"等於是一個燈塔 等於是一個中心然後去建置所有的兒醫的不管是網絡 然後提升醫療品質特別是補充不足的 不管是急重症方面的那這個部分其實這幾年來也效果不錯"},{"start":567.569,"end":594.296,"text":"那我們都知道我們在教學醫院裡面除了持續臨床的工作以外一定都要加上研究嘛所以他在臨床加上研究是可以的部分是可以在這個這個優化兒童醫療計畫裡面去做那我們如果要獨立成立一個兒童健康研究中心這就是專門要來做研究的啊今天當然行政院教育部合可"},{"start":595.496,"end":614.289,"text":"將支援部分經費那送到行政院那這個部分基本上如果是以研究方面應該是由國科會在主責因為衛福部的不管是醫事室或相關的單位基本上都是以醫療服務為重但是我們所以非常樂觀其成那畢竟"},{"start":615.976,"end":631.652,"text":"兒童的一個每一個兒童都是保護他即使有罕見疾病有任何的疾病我們都應該來研究而且我們也知道像不管是籠總或很多醫院他們的罕病的那種研究是非常的國際級的"},{"start":633.714,"end":649.888,"text":"所以這個部分都是希望能夠透過這些研究來蒐集大數據如果能夠讓台灣的兒童能夠順利的成長對 因為我也知道這些臨床團隊在請研究的人其實都是自己在想辦法也很辛苦啦那因為台大所以應該給予更多的資助因為吳院長也在現場"},{"start":653.771,"end":666.615,"text":"因為這些兒童醫院跟台大醫院不知道在歷史上有沒有關聯性那不曉得吳院長這邊有沒有什麼要再做補充我們院方事實上是很支持他們"},{"start":673.544,"end":698.794,"text":"設立這樣的研究中心而且我們用完一年給兒醫的事實上的補助其實是蠻多的因為我們都同意說沒有兒童就沒有未來那包括最近兒醫的人才其實全台灣都是不足現在那個假如政府給100個可能小兒科醫師可能照不到50個這已經是現在式"},{"start":700.655,"end":717.327,"text":"所以我們期待包括教育部、衛護部當然台大醫院也都能夠順利的來讓這個兒童健康研究中心就是如果是台大有成立的話那變成是一個世界方面的領頭羊對於未來整個台灣兒童的照顧有更大的幫助"},{"start":718.227,"end":734.003,"text":"那最後就是要跟部長請教有關你這個公立教學醫院面臨的這些性別平等如何做有效的機制的整合我想今天的主要大家關心的部分都很聚焦在這個地方"},{"start":734.523,"end":762.56,"text":"那我們知道公立醫院尤其是教學醫院的醫師他同時擔任的教學研究還有服務三個重要的這些需求那在這個部分呢就會相對比較複雜如果一位醫師他同時擔任公務員的身份那他在這個過程裡面可能會造成對象的影響包括公務人員勞工病患學生和廠商等等"},{"start":763.56,"end":788.279,"text":"這個如何能夠讓他整合不同的這個受害對象的性平事件來進行調查跟救濟其實今天早上討論非常非常的多那甚至對於如果確立以後往後的這些相關的懲處措施的法源整合大家也都有不同的想法跟不同的法源依據那我們現在比較想要瞭解的就是針對於以這個C性的"},{"start":792.181,"end":812.35,"text":"教授所造成的這個影響他如果本身或者是相對未來的個案又可能是類似的背景的話這個院長或者是台大萬一又發生在剛剛所提到的台大的校園或者是醫院裡面如何能夠讓"},{"start":813.85,"end":835.087,"text":"在處理的時候可以是能夠用統合式的方式而不是說出現一個事件然後一個單位去進行調查後來才發現原來一開始就應該要來統合式的整理那這部分不知道包括吳院長或者是王祖密這邊能不能提供相關的意見給未來做參考好請謝謝委員提示"},{"start":843.574,"end":865.945,"text":"我在醫院他主要是性騷法就是性平三法本來我們認為是定的非常好我們的立法院有這麼進步的法律可是今天這個西信教授的案子是他是發生在醫院裡面雖然他有教師的身份可是我們的性平三法是以"},{"start":866.825,"end":893.159,"text":"這個事件發生的場域來規定有哪一個去調查那可是他假如有雙重身分的時候這個時候可能就需要因為法院上沒有規定譬如我們在性別騷擾法那裡我們就是完全依據他發生的場域可是這個人有雙重身分雖然場域是在醫院那是不是要馬上就報給學校因為我們還沒有調查"},{"start":894.76,"end":914.001,"text":"我們也只能先做調查完以後我們依職者再報給學校所以我想今天會讓大家這麼關心就是我本來以為性別三法訂的已經很好而且我們也從110年開始我們根據這個法我們已經處罰過在醫院裡面有申訴人有成案的"},{"start":914.501,"end":931.422,"text":"這些都有數據可以顯現可是今天這個案子可能需要大家再去思考特別是這種跨身份雖然他發生的場域是在醫院但是他有交識的身份這個學生也不是學生"},{"start":933.209,"end":949.262,"text":"是其實如果他是一個Resident他本身又在念研究所那萬一這個對象呢或者是這個相互的關係他又是指導老師可能就不只是在醫院而已就會爆發在大學裡面造成的這個影響"},{"start":950.723,"end":972.853,"text":"這個真的是相對複雜很多那很期待未來包括這個部長能夠透過跨部會的研商針對剛剛吳院長所提到的如果是很複雜的情形之下能不能一開始就必須要把它整合在一起而不至於後來是切割式的再做處理讓這些受害者得到第二次傷害"},{"start":974.501,"end":992.21,"text":"我想憲憑三法那個勞動部應該很熟啦那這個其實我不曉得吳院長覺得好像不太好用因為這是我上一屆擔任召委的時候通過的所以我當時覺得我們很用心在把這三個法處理得好那怎麼樣"},{"start":993.811,"end":1020.256,"text":"圖法不只以自行嘛怎麼樣把法弄到真的讓大家每一個場域都能夠很順利的來應用我想我們再來多請教勞動部來指導一下是這是新公法是是因為包括像教育部啊退伍會裡面的人民醫院系列國防部的國防大學等等事實上都會有同樣的問題"},{"start":1021.656,"end":1050.316,"text":"那個跟王漢說明這些身份不管是公務人員或者是勞工甚至可能包括實習生只要發生他在職場裡面有職場裡面的權利關係基本上就是用性供法所以雖然看起來有不同身份的多重性可是事實上都應該是用性供法來處理那我們希望將來主責單位就必須要確實負起責任因為我們最後再看有關於"},{"start":1051.096,"end":1068.494,"text":"如果不是公立醫院而是私立醫院或者是相關的體系的時候那真的是為無負責無旁貸也希望能夠請部長繼續把這些該做的事情能夠確實的做好好那謝謝好謝謝 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你應該撤銷啊但是你們沒有做 那表示人家要廢監察院監察院的糾正等於廢紙一張連參考的價值都沒有你衛福部做了什麼 什麼糾正 沒有啊就你們都怕得要命 說我怕為他監察院糾正結果你做了什麼 改善作為 沒有所以監察院被廢 被廢掉 差不多而已啦"},{"start":107.282,"end":130.169,"text":"糾正沒意義嘛 你該廢掉這兩個啊好 以醫院的這個評鑑的分區台北市每75.2萬人就有一間醫學中心如果我擴大台北市之外的這個北區桃竹苗則是稍微增加一下每95.1萬人有一間醫學中心那我高屏鵬 高雄加屏東喔"},{"start":133.371,"end":154.348,"text":"這個121.3萬才有一間醫學中心等同我每家的高頻醫學中心是要服務121萬人負擔是台北區的1.6萬倍人均享有醫療資源的品質是顯然不均的醫療中心過度集中中北部不僅擴大了南北醫療不均也讓新增的醫學中心與現有的醫療單位爭取在為數有限的醫護能力"},{"start":158.652,"end":181.929,"text":"影響我這個高屏地區的民眾醫療的品質而且這句話我一定要為高雄人講話高雄市民的平均移民才多少六度最低耶醫療資源平均的不平均已經造成我南部醫護工作負擔衛福部你必須重視這才是剛起點而已好那個下一頁你這個不能運作主席不好意思"},{"start":187.37,"end":188.577,"text":"那個停止一下好不好"},{"start":192.417,"end":220.068,"text":"我們來看地理分佈來看這個就醫資源從桃竹苗為北區的範圍今年的台大醫院的新竹分業甄列為醫學中心使全國的醫學中心在2024年突破為到22家其中一半以上22的一半就是11家11家、12家全部都在北區跟台北區濁水西以南的醫學中心多少?台南加高雄5家"},{"start":221.291,"end":233.585,"text":"好從地理面積高屏篷的面積是5931.86平方公里這個數字可以放過但是這個數字部長你看清楚我一枚高屏篷我還把蓬勃拉進來1977平方公里才有一間"},{"start":237.429,"end":266.248,"text":"醫學中心喔 台北市加新北喔它是平均每151公里就有一間的醫學中心喔你看光是就醫的便利性我高屏龍真的不是說小孩子可以來介紹的啊好 高屏龍跟雙北區的相比每平方公里所擁有的醫學中心的資源我們差這個跟台北啊我們差了13倍啊凸顯兩地的就醫資源的不均啊"},{"start":267.929,"end":291.196,"text":"再來我們看這個區域分布看醫療研究的需求醫學中心最適合發展智慧醫療因此有足夠的援兒人員足夠多的臨床案例足夠大的社會聲譽與資通訊業者來合作今年5月你們這個由台灣智慧醫療聯盟建立的醫學中心的AI國家隊成員不好意思又在中北部的醫學中心了"},{"start":291.756,"end":315.909,"text":"南部未來需要更多的場域才能有更多的研究量能賴總統提出了健康台灣的願景要強化醫療跟照護行政院要推動大南方的新矽谷計畫將在南部包括高頻縣市運用AI發展的健康照護跟智慧醫療因此在高頻棚有必要設置第四個醫學中心才能落實區域平衡 接軌總統的產業政策"},{"start":318.03,"end":335.825,"text":"好 今天高屏東醫學中心集中在高雄的西部所以在北高雄東高雄北屏東我總共10個行政區將近百萬人口我們是沒有醫學中心的我們的急重難 喊四大病症的醫療也需要提升吧好來 夏業這個不好意思 這個好 我們來看這個"},{"start":345.582,"end":361.86,"text":"醫療培訓來看醫療中心的必要根據衛護部的醫學中心任務指標你看清楚喔講得多好聽啊這看在我男部人的眼裡啊我真的是在吞不下這口氣了提升資源不足的地方的醫療水準提升資源不足喔"},{"start":362.481,"end":385.952,"text":"高頻很明顯是醫學是醫療資源不足的還強調這個醫學中心要帶動跟輔導區域內的醫療機構投入研究跟創新好來培育醫事人員這是你們的指標好來我們看整個大大大南方六縣市雖然半導體跟AI的聚落但在區域的醫療資源卻是南北差異隨著科技人才移民南部"},{"start":386.352,"end":411.81,"text":"以及高雄逐漸成為物流人流金流中心高屏具有必要設置第四個醫學中心才能吸引醫療跟生技人才經過地方發展跟醫療服務好根據醫師公會全聯會的統計喔台北市是每平方公里就有多少個醫生41.82新北市啊不好意思3位我高雄更差每平方公里只有2.35位醫生屏東我們昭緯的更慘"},{"start":416.313,"end":426.176,"text":"0.82位 每坪包括這樣0.82位醫生喔好我不是我我除了用面積我看人均台北市每1萬人就有43.67位的醫師喔我高雄每1萬人才有25.11位醫生屏東的每1萬人稍微這個主席你看一下屏東啊1萬人才有14.51個醫師啊"},{"start":437.859,"end":452.255,"text":"中央應透過增額醫學中心強化我高頻繃的醫護的培訓的能量好 最後我們來看你這個醫院評鑑程序的過時性寫好一點叫過時性啦對本席來講叫荒謬性醫學中心的數量不應該"},{"start":453.176,"end":467.265,"text":"從人口數來考量從地理的分佈區域發展醫護的培訓的需求也應該一併考量好你們根據112年的醫院評鑑跟教學醫院的評鑑每200萬人口的評鑑一家醫學中心好按照你們這個標準台北區韓新北總人口數是752萬按照每200萬有一間你只能有3.76間的醫學中心你們搞到現在10間你們公然違法"},{"start":482.014,"end":488.278,"text":"然後平均呢還平均75.5萬人才有一間醫學中心你們規定是多少200萬人才能夠有一間你們擴增到這種地步現在是衛福部是太上皇沒有在照規定好再來你的醫學評鑑程序的附件六請部長拿起來看你們訂租了一級醫療區域醫學中心的全國的上限是多少家"},{"start":509.672,"end":526.608,"text":"20家好 我們就不要看全國上限齁其中全國是全國 北中南東喔才20家 你看你們現在暴增多家台北區就8家高屏區3家事實上台北區目前已經達到10家這個上限沒有法源"},{"start":527.048,"end":539.695,"text":"沒有依據而衛福部還可以在評鑑後請以分數接近為由自行再雙倍增加遭到監察院檢舉之後傷害評鑑的公信力醫院評鑑的程序對於醫學中心數量的評定標準是過時的過時的辦法不僅未能考慮區域醫療均衡發展"},{"start":549,"end":558.49,"text":"且成為監委糾正的理由衛福部有必要檢討過時作業的程序納入更公允的指標好本席有建議好來本席的建議請這個你們在現在啊針對高頻膨的這個應該要針對第四間的醫療中心而且再請衛福部就針對人口地理面積國家發展的計畫"},{"start":571.983,"end":585.86,"text":"提升資源不足的地方的醫療目標考慮東高雄北高雄北屏東等地的民眾需求提升該區域的這個醫療中心那針對這一次的本席的這個質詢我不曉得您有什麼看法"},{"start":588.479,"end":607.252,"text":"非常敬佩我們林委員提出這麼完整的我高雄人啊我南台灣人啊真的非常敬佩我們站在均衡台灣跟醫療平衡前的立場上當然資源不足的地方我們要優先去補那針對你們現在即將公佈的醫療中心也要怎麼處理一樣啦那整個高屏看起來是如果剛剛委員分析的其實是"},{"start":618.819,"end":645.005,"text":"真的是不分析不知道一分析我都要跟你革命了一分析我都要跟你革命了所以我這邊先具體要求你們現在要公佈的這個高屏棚的第四間我是不能接受你們說你們再來納入研究然後我下一次我們基於要不要有第四間我下一次再處理我告訴你本席我是不能接受這件事情的"},{"start":646.506,"end":659.396,"text":"所以你現在要暫停你們現在的整個評鑑的所有的作業分數到這邊你不能給我公佈你們要從該很公允的去看我的區域的平衡如果你跟我講說你現在要公佈啊然後呢這個我的這個區域均衡的醫療的醫療權來講你要下次再檢討我看你病得"},{"start":668.343,"end":677.497,"text":"我站在高雄的人 我把你扔掉所以你要暫停你現在的評鑑的一個發布的程序那部長你要怎麼做 請回答"},{"start":680.148,"end":701.858,"text":"你們現在已經快公佈了嘛144已經有了嘛那你的公佈程序是什麼包括你看到本席的這樣的一個這麼明確我全部數字說話喔那你是不是應該暫停然後納入檢討之後你再去做到底全國應該要多少間的醫療中心那你再去做這個之後的公佈呢"},{"start":702.725,"end":712.807,"text":"我們一定會審慎評估好 審慎評估審慎評估要多久你要多久才監討完然後多久要公布這兩個議題你可以把它掛勾處理"},{"start":713.939,"end":732.854,"text":"你什麼時候公布你現在這一批的評鑑要不要有增列這個是不是有這個增列的這個醫療中心高雄好了 高屏鵬你這一邊你要不要增加第四間的醫療中心這件事情你什麼時候要評估完成然後第二個你什麼時候要公布這一批次的這個醫療中心部長我們希望"},{"start":738.464,"end":765.015,"text":"能夠兩個禮拜之內把林委員提的這些建議那好好的來延期那因為這個公布也不能太也不能太慢啦 因為所有這次接受評鑑的都在因應期盼嘛 那個也比較不管是在衛福部或健保署都有後續相關的作業要做所以時間也不能太久 我們希望"},{"start":767.239,"end":769.581,"text":"你要監察兩個禮拜這樣的一個評鑑標準是嗎部長評鑑標準其實已經"},{"start":775.799,"end":795.325,"text":"已經都已經本來就公告了平間標準有問題啊你要不要回復到我的上一月第七頁你說你們的多荒謬來看到第七頁部長你不覺得這樣的平間標準已經是很荒謬的事情嗎你們公然違法你們沒有法也沒有依據作業程序你自己說結果你又沒有按照自己講的這個內規執行你覺得這樣可以嗎"},{"start":799.332,"end":812.069,"text":"每200萬人得評一家醫學中心然後你的大台北 台北區 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這些被經過騷擾而她因為家庭關係她不敢站出來的人在目前我們現行的體制之下她仍然在害怕所以部長 大家我希望你可以給多久的時間你們把這件事情有從頭到尾的把它處理完畢不要偉大序雕"},{"start":619.56,"end":648.505,"text":"你給我一個時間給我一個承諾希望台灣大學趕快完成那個整個整個懲處然後我想那個縣市公會的懲戒委員衛生局懲戒委員的委員處理然後送到衛護部的話我們會除了對這件事情做一個處理以外我們會以這樣的一個系統性的來檢討希望未來不要再發生這種事情還有就是他"},{"start":649.065,"end":656.831,"text":"作為一個如果台大醫院已經調查這名醫師他是性騷而且嚴重的性騷也已經被記過他有這樣的事實是否就已經不再是任婦產科醫學會的理事長他現在在我們的衛生部的職登已經沒有職登了但他還是理事長啊對啊 理事長這個部分因為他是民間團體我們會對啊 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謝謝超委喔 是不是還是請我們部長 衛福部 邱部長不好意思喔好啦 你現在可以來了啦"},{"start":22.284,"end":32.291,"text":"委員好部長這個醫院大火8條人命我已經質詢你很多次了我不是談個案我一直跟你講10月7號的時候我跟你講你有沒有去盤點因為到去年年底12月31號醫院評鑑要有117家那你在這個評鑑的過程當中117家有沒有管縣老舊蘇山洞縣等公安問題消防問題的這個發現然後10月7號問你"},{"start":52.324,"end":58.148,"text":"你也不知道然後11月4號再問你有沒有有多少醫院有哪幾家醫院有病安公安的疑慮叫你盤點一下這個到時候我們要優先的這個公安的政策的對策是什麼然後你告訴我一個月你當時說這個恐怕要再調查一次我們會去調查各地方政府還有消防局他們的調查結果一個月內要跟我們報告現在已經兩個月了從10月7號到現在也已經三四個月了"},{"start":81.283,"end":85.028,"text":"今天這個問題沒有任何報告來啦各位委員我們跟他說的他跟我們承諾的全部都沒有報告這樣當作都不知道現在這是怎麼裝睡的人叫不醒還是腳麻了不怕還是說明目張膽的在包庇因為一路走來你始終認為"},{"start":100.106,"end":105.87,"text":"這個地方政府的事、地方消防局的事、地方的問題跟你都無關的但我要講說你們的醫院評鑑你們的醫策會你們都沒有去發現問題到底問題有沒有比較集中在哪些問題哪些方面然後就政策面要怎麼納入管制你不能說我以後評鑑要納入評鑑項目那也是我跟你說的地區醫院沒有納入公安的任何評鑑你現在說你要改了現在到底是怎樣啦"},{"start":130.149,"end":131.512,"text":"有大概有187間九年為止要評價的有問題的大概幾間啦"},{"start":138.717,"end":149.385,"text":"好 謝謝委員 我想上次執行以後我們馬上就折承各縣市政府衛生局依照內政部 國安部現在請問兩位 你們調查結果和報告就好了一定是到12月31啦我知道啊 今天已經1月2號啊我們那個會把它整理以後 馬上那你當初承諾我的是在爭笑的嗎當時你回答我說你們要去調查各地方政府和消防局他們的調查結果一個月之內跟你報告這樣是在爭笑的"},{"start":167.478,"end":169.926,"text":"一個月兩個多月過去你跟我講說我們還在彙整"},{"start":172.758,"end":195.409,"text":"欸 趙薇 現在補充來這裡 自己說的都是親善公共 不用買單 不用負責的嗎你以為是親善跟我講的嗎你這樣對臺人民是這個態度 我不是代表零十五分的我代表全臺灣的人民來這裡監督質詢你你告訴我你一個月內要拿出報告結果兩個多月過去 你不但沒有拿出報告 你還跟人講說這等一下 我們還去調查報告一下"},{"start":199.631,"end":209.618,"text":"阿你現在會把我整瘋嗎?還是第一回是青菜公共的?我現在說的這很嚴肅喔今天一月跟兩天的橋櫃兩個月阿你沒調查報告欸!10月25日還有便宜內發生火災內苗栗縣慈祐醫院凌晨4點多還發生火警幸好全院105人就地避難無人傷亡詳細的其我原因還要調查"},{"start":226.849,"end":233.765,"text":"而且恰好的是這一家醫院的評鑑合格校期也是這一波裡面要接受評鑑的"},{"start":235.262,"end":247.893,"text":"所以這間便衣評鑑到期的期間呢它就發生不明原因的火災這間的火災 那間的火災我現在問你說這個問題 主管機關的衛福部你有去了解嗎 你有重視這個問題嗎你在這個狀況裡面立委質詢這麼多次 你對我虛偽偽疑"},{"start":258.7,"end":265.539,"text":"那你現在是治醫院的公安於何地你治醫院看病的病人於何地蛤"},{"start":268.444,"end":289.885,"text":"你現在閃閃躲躲又裝睡覺不行你再讓我講下去我真的不想用形容詞可是我覺得說 我覺得很羞恥欸你出身醫界你對病人的安全 公共安全卻這樣子忽視忽略你來這裡都是在應付你自己不是真的發自內心覺得醫院的公共安全很重要"},{"start":290.586,"end":298.328,"text":"我已經在今天問你第三遍了你都在想我去跟地方的政府跟消防局會政一下我現在不是在說會政的你評測單位 你的醫測會你不用親自去了解第一時間趕快所有數據拿回來看一下這一些被評鑑的醫院 病安公安的問題大多數都是在哪裡"},{"start":316.753,"end":332.182,"text":"那如果是全面性的大家在這些領域都有問題的話你面對珍貴的生命和公共安全你不用想說我們的對策是什麼嗎還是擺明了就是說包庇這些公安缺失的意願然後你又想說 我不能得罪他們這問題這麼嚴重 我如果自己自我揭露就很難看政府抹黑全土灰"},{"start":339.886,"end":347.091,"text":"現在是要替監護擦脂抹粉還是真的要替別人安全要顧好病人的安全每一個到醫院去的他的生命安全都應該要被保障我不是談個案但從那個大火事件的傷亡個案來看這個危險性不低危險性不低去病院是要提名要求名的去到那裡等到沒名這樣感到"},{"start":370.076,"end":378.191,"text":"你再回答我一次啦答案是什麼我想那個謝謝委員我想如果醫院發生火災不只病人"},{"start":380.178,"end":387.463,"text":"從你來告訴我什麼時候給我數據到去年為止你應該接受評鑑你住嘴你已經有到達人身攻擊的時候我必須要回應因為你就是這個樣子啊很羞恥啊十月門一蓋十一月門一蓋十二月說要一個月之後要給我回答你完全沒有給立委回答"},{"start":403.494,"end":425.142,"text":"你這裡虛偽你知兵人的公安於何地還敢在這裡講說你要個人的名譽我們要公共的安全比你個人的名譽還更重要民營的品質安全尤其到醫院的安全是我們花盡多少錢你就通口白話信口雌黃完全沒有提出對策你每天在這裡問你問題有多嚴重你就不懂得怎麼說你是要說什麼"},{"start":431.556,"end":444.944,"text":"威廉負到責任在哪裡 醫院到底安不安全當下發現 主席 主席 他干擾你的時間我現在在說 他怎麼跟我的社群在說來 請你講 請你講 抱歉當下發現布洛格有帶改進時 到底有多少數量有幾斤便宜你若不說便宜的名字 你告訴我 總共有幾斤可以賣來 依策委來回答"},{"start":460.322,"end":478.369,"text":"沒有還有什麼來那個誰如果本年度如果社評的醫院出現值有公安問題相關的建議或者改善的意見因為我們也不是消防單位他是評鑑你現在在說什麼我聽不懂剛有缺化分"},{"start":482.648,"end":503.416,"text":"在家有白飯的 給他抽水的 他如果發生大火 他是沒有辦法逃生的而就必須要防火區域位的劃分 這是最重要的不要忘了那一場大火死了八個人裡面 不是小事的是因為煙嗆死了 所以煙害的管控 有毒煙的控管"},{"start":505,"end":522.948,"text":"這個是很重要的我現在問你說除了已經有傷亡的以外你現在評鑑裡面還有幾間有這個防火區域的問題有嚴控的問題有公共安全的問題我現在告訴你有多少數量試射到這個經過了四個月你還講不出來你經過四個月講不出來你跟我講說你在乎病人的安全你在乎醫院的安全現在是怎樣被你笑了"},{"start":534.057,"end":543.763,"text":"立委問你三次你講不出來 區議委都有在做啊我現在要問你 你現在是有動於裝 腳麻了走不走 沒辦法走還是裝睡人叫不行 還是你就是明目張膽的要包庇而在這當中還有醫院繼續在發生火災這是好運的 哪有壞運的叫病人 那些傷亡的病人的家屬情何以堪啊"},{"start":563.459,"end":572.788,"text":"你現在給我回答 還有幾件有問題你今天這個問題 你就說不出來這麼簡單的問題 我問四個月 你說不出來你叫人家對你不要非議 怎麼可能你叫人家不對你批評 怎麼可能"},{"start":582.452,"end":600.42,"text":"包委員我們12月30要蒐集以後馬上整理馬上跟你報你講的問題我會一天你沒辦法因為你剛剛放寒假啊沒有委員會啊所以你蒐集你要給我報告是要怎麼報告我們說到做到會一次機才可以問說到做到你從來沒有說到做到10月的時候沒有回答我們11月的時候沒有回答我們你告訴我一個月以後要給我答案也沒有回答我們"},{"start":608.404,"end":613.447,"text":"我今天要問的不是這個問題我今天要問的還有很多問題 因為時間有限我都在進行啦 你放心 我有在進行你說的每一個月都沒有一天 所以沒得放心有在進行啦 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我們接下來"},{"start":101.588,"end":116.842,"text":"這很重要的一個憲法判決111年10月28號憲判制第17號這裡面特別明定對於平埔族群的身份"},{"start":118.41,"end":147.172,"text":"這個要在先知日期三年內要這個公布施行不然的話就違法違憲所以這個必須在114年10月27號以前必須要公布評估族群身份法這是現判17號的一個正式的判決這個請問一下秘書長什麼時候可以把這個草案送到立法院"},{"start":149.276,"end":171.243,"text":"那個陳時中政委他是有在這個討論這件事情有一個專案小組正在做這樣的事情他有是有在我們政務會裡面有做過一次還兩次的報告那後續如果有比較明確的方向的話我想我們就會盡快提出來民主黨這個時間你要"},{"start":173.581,"end":200.548,"text":"請秘書長去協調陳時中政務委員有這個時間的急迫性他知道他知道不是不是不是知道他還要知道我知道但是還是要提醒了第一個哈第一個顏明慧送來的到行政院11月就送去了顏明慧送到行政院的草案11月就送去了是經過很多場的"},{"start":202.482,"end":230.945,"text":"說明會已經聽起了平埔族群還有原住民族群的意見之後提了草案所以要盡可能要絕大部分應該要尊重尊重延民會所提的草案為什麼呢因為他是聽起了各界的意見尤其是平埔族群的意見好不好因為必須在我的建議"},{"start":232.604,"end":261.229,"text":"務必要在一月底以前這個月底以前為什麼呢我們看這個時程二月立法院開會對不對開始正式會審這個法案二月下旬甚至三月初然後還要開很多的次很多的說不定還要開公聽會之類的所以必須要在今年的五月三十一號以前的定期會要完成才有辦法不然的話"},{"start":262.615,"end":276.006,"text":"過了這個定期會就來不及了所以這個是一個一定要提醒最好是一月底以前就是下個會期一定要通過了對對對沒有錯好接下來這個研究法推動會這個院長親自主持在113年12月19號召開了研究法推動會"},{"start":287.335,"end":309.942,"text":"仍然沒有依延期法來審議協調未完成的法案這個你要跟延民會講所送來的不是報告案這個跟那個毫無關係了要完成的按照延期法審議協調延期法相關事務啊最重要的是什麼呢比如說延期法第四條啊"},{"start":316.485,"end":345.044,"text":"原住民組織法還沒有完成啊應該要討論這個尤其是行政院院長第一次卓榮泰院長第一次召開這個基本法推動會他應該要了解結果沒有列這個討論案啊原紀法20條也是一樣啊土海法啊蔡總統這個要我們會很快的將原住民組織法土海法送到立法院審議八年多沒有啊沒有送來啊"},{"start":347.061,"end":374.307,"text":"我們卓榮泰院長也說政府也將落實原住民族基本法背立原住民族自治的推動所以卓院長第一次主持的原住民法推動會當然應該是要討論這個才對你看原住民族土地法治這是卓院長在書面報告寫得很清楚的所以這個部分要請秘書長要跟延民會講"},{"start":375.731,"end":378.472,"text":"好不好以後不要隨便弄一個報告案了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158632","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158632","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5398e5df1141ff2b3f82bf49b3fbaf4a5671cb7f8abfc27ff3b3d0bf90661b4be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:36:47 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如果正在會議進行當中的話不應該但是我剛才提到就是我判斷上這個會議到底現在的狀態說老實話不是那麼清楚啦"},{"start":267.133,"end":291.193,"text":"不是那麼清楚 那你可以尊重主席嘛 對不對因為那時候主席也不在不是不是 那你不能等嘛 我都等你等好久了好不好所以這個本席只能說民進黨習慣違憲違法立法院就算譴責呢 民進黨的官員也是不痛不癢那這個 但是剩下的時間我想行政院還是有很多事情本席要這個質詢"},{"start":293.195,"end":314.173,"text":"要來跟您來做一個討論首先第一個有關我們這個消費者消費者保護本席請教您您知道最近我們又聽說這個薑黃粉胡椒發現了蘇丹紅本席請教秘書長您知道薑黃粉或胡椒一罐大概多少錢嗎"},{"start":316.529,"end":334.738,"text":"這個我沒有很了解大概嘛對幾百塊嘛對兩百到五百五百看大罐小罐對不對對好那本席再請教您你有沒有聽說有新聞說民眾在飯店或旅館甚至賓館被偷拍的情況"},{"start":336.047,"end":356.645,"text":"就是被業者他裝 您知道嘛媒體有一些暴露所以像這些民眾的消費的權益或是他們的健康這個像這個胡椒薑黃粉裡面參有蘇丹紅他們這一些情況他們要怎麼辦他不可能為幾百塊"},{"start":358.706,"end":385.456,"text":"來申訴嘛那我們行政院是不是可以對於像這種個別的可是他是集體性的包含您說這個飯店他裝了偷拍器他不會只拍到一個人吧他那個長時間的對不對受害的人一定很多嘛那上網這個偷把這個影片偷賣出去他賺了幾百萬就是這個不肖業者"},{"start":386.297,"end":413.929,"text":"像這種我們竟然有消保處我們應該要考慮因為民眾不可能負擔這些訴訟費用所以行政院針對這一塊已經民間大家其實怨聲載道所以是不是團體訴訟的經費因為經費不足參與人數不夠所以困難重重那政府能不能提供足夠的經費協助消保團體提起訴訟"},{"start":415.089,"end":440.947,"text":"可以嗎包委員我剛剛問的就是說食安的部分是有我們有個基金所以那個對那個食安法裡面就有規定所以這個部分的集體訴訟是沒有問題那其他的部分就是我們怎麼樣請那個主政機關相關的主政機關他們來協助或是地方政府那如果主政機關不撥預算或撥的預算不夠行政院會協助嗎"},{"start":442.999,"end":463.049,"text":"會 好 對所以我們真的希望行政院一定要負起協助提起團體訴訟保障民眾的消費權益好 那再來本席要就這個我們行政院常常會研擬一些法律的草案 對不對還有行政命令 對不對行政法規命令"},{"start":463.729,"end":492.144,"text":"那這個為了讓各界能夠充分事先了解而且充分的時間表達意見所以都要提前公告這點祕書長您知道嗎要預告對就是預告嘛那現在很多的法律案都沒有預告然後你們都自己就在那邊做也不讓大家可以連我們立委都不知道這一塊可不可以改進當然可以改進但是我跟委員說明一下"},{"start":493.064,"end":516.508,"text":"如果是行政命令行政法規的部分沒有我法律案我特別針對法律案因為你們行政命令行政法規有規定要60天那個一定要60天因為人民沒有如果沒有你馬上公佈沒有反應期但是因為法律案通常會有冗長的比較討論的過程這個討論過程就可以表達意見等等一些情況"},{"start":517.028,"end":540.085,"text":"所以你們不用預告嗎還是要預告嗎對 理論上原則上還是要預告但是只是說所以執行上都常常沒有預告這樣不好啦好不好可不可以改進可不可以改進啊我們會以這個作為最大的原則啦對啦 應該要嘛好不好對對對還是會有這個原則那最後就是行政院其實更重要的職責是在於跨部會的整合您認同嗎是的"},{"start":542.287,"end":556.742,"text":"對所有事情包括剛剛今天蘇巧慧委員她也說事業廢水要您針對內政部跟經濟部要做協調嘛那我們在打詐的部分那更是跨了四五個單位所以我們"},{"start":558.203,"end":578.184,"text":"這個現在我們台灣的打詐越打越詐四肢不協調的這個問題所以我們針對行政院的跨部會整合我請秘書長您回去傳達院長也好還有在整個行政院我們在統領各部會的時候一定要加強這個跨部會整合可以嗎是所以我們打詐辦"},{"start":580.185,"end":589.792,"text":"指揮官在這裡我知道不只打詐嘛你既然講到這兒本席請教你你有在路上走路的時候你有看過有那個小綠人的號誌嗎有沒有小綠人對對對他剩下兩秒你會不會過不會剩兩秒為什麼不過"},{"start":598.948,"end":620.86,"text":"剩兩秒因為你過不了不一定啊為什麼剩兩秒過不了我們立法院這邊有小綠人剩兩秒過得了所以好 這個秘書長說剩兩秒就不過但一般民眾會這樣嗎很多人對很多的交通法規不是那麼了解嘛"},{"start":621.46,"end":649.201,"text":"所以現在這個我們在交通部我們有關行人道路安全或者是這個罰則的部分有交通部還有我們內政部國土署那造成民怨非常大每年我們的這個道路交通有很多的灰色地帶然後像本席舉例的這種或者是您知道現在有一種叫做行人優先區您知道嗎"},{"start":650.561,"end":664.199,"text":"對啊,就是車子不能進去嘛車子可以進的行人優先區那他說在行人優先區只要車子跟人碰撞車子要負完全的責任"},{"start":665.168,"end":679.415,"text":"那因為他車子可以進嘛那車子如果進去那今天如果有人真正刻意去衝擊去撞擊任何的機車腳踏車或者是汽車那所有的責任都還是這個"},{"start":681.136,"end":704.186,"text":"交通工具的這個所有人他要承擔所以有很多不合理民眾一直的來跟我相信每個委員都常常有跟這個各部會在反映所以我們希望行政院對於有些要跨部會整合的然後民眾特別期待的像我們每年像去年前年了112年已經前年了"},{"start":707.648,"end":724.829,"text":"74億的罰還561萬件的交通罰單那很多是灰色地帶所以我們是不是行政院可以責成相關的部會來檢討不要老是讓政府的失職然後呢讓人民受罰這一塊可不可以改進"},{"start":726.618,"end":754.553,"text":"我們 道安會報都會有定期在開啦對啊 都是跨部會整合啦那有些問題一直存在著民眾也跟我們反映到疲累了但是時時都有這種反應昨天本席還馬上看到一個民眾親自用訊息來反映隨時我們都接受到所以這一塊我們是不是可以請行政院相關單位在道安會報"},{"start":755.273,"end":769.014,"text":"也好,那時候所有單位都在嘛好好的做個檢討,可以嗎?可以可以好,謝謝,謝謝秘書謝謝,那國民省本市要提醒您一下剛剛徐欣盈、趙偉在問您說您剛剛說您不曉得那當天"}]}},{"id":"158609","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158609","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e591ed5b6b9f54375bf82bf49b3fbaf4a58d75bdfb612c74e0efa4b89b7a34049c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:04:27 - 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民事長早 民事長本席在這裡想跟你探討一個霸凌的問題 我覺得我們要有積極因為本席跟你說的 你未來做秘書長 應該我現在跟你說的 應該你知道我先在打氣"},{"start":27.452,"end":29.534,"text":"在家裡發生的時候是二孔二一年到已經上去法院懲罰會的時候是一定是二孔二四年所以中間三年多到有覺得說這個好處跟這個錯處有不對的"},{"start":51.218,"end":55,"text":"所以本市要跟你說發生一件事可以去改進做到不對的人是要有股票是沒有不對但是要趕快去做因為本市覺得說我們有一點冠冠勝負因為畢竟主管單位都認為我在這裡我做很久的"},{"start":79.943,"end":85.646,"text":"跟你們這麼簡單的考到工科機關有時候因為我們最基本的資產的官工都臨了都想說我這麼簡單的還要去考這個工科機關所以他臨也臨臨到"},{"start":104.912,"end":107.814,"text":"有什麼定情,他也不知道要定情去對,所以必須要,在我本身剛才講到現在現在以這個教育的處境,如果想要請這個代理老師的家屬,在那裡,藍瓊或藍莓"},{"start":128.7,"end":139.684,"text":"要不然他現在現有在一個官司做教育處長這樣是不是應該來 秘書長你回答一下謝委員的提醒所以為什麼就是說基層員工我們擔心就是在機關內部他有他的申訴管道原來本來就有我們很擔心就是說就像您剛才講基層員工他可能"},{"start":155.816,"end":179.685,"text":"不方便或不太敢向上反映所以我們在行政院為什麼要架一個通報平台你不用在你內部你從外面就是我們申報平台那這個案件我們就會立案來要求他一定要做處置而且要求他一個月之內就要有調查結果讓我們知道所以不會拖那麼久當然後續"},{"start":182.341,"end":204.412,"text":"所有的所有的公務員還有一些申訴管道那是另外的我們講說行政部門的部分我們處理至少一個月最多最多可以再加一個月你去行政調查或是處理一定要有結果那我們就不會拖那麼久馬上那如果真的很需要的時候我們當場就會把他們的職務做一個調動讓他們不會有一個重組關係"},{"start":207.677,"end":211.259,"text":"因為畢竟本身在這裡跟你說 因為沒說沒事情講下去霸凌 這個台語也霸凌 這個台語也霸凌 這個台語也霸凌到底是之前的起伏主觀的霸凌還是主觀起伏之前的霸凌 大家都分不清楚"},{"start":232.601,"end":244.557,"text":"也願意的霸凌 像剛才所說的你說主管單位 加工藥照的規律說實在的 必須要做非常嚴重的因為我們的重點就是說"},{"start":249.09,"end":250.971,"text":"港幼依卻不補嘛 大家都會想說 跟大家再拖好你如果找到的時候 我就選一個 當時來到三港做工會都願望可以留下嘛 要不然本身要找的人 一定會覺得 主觀來的刁難嘛"},{"start":271.564,"end":277.165,"text":"包括本縣的服務處 也接觸到很多人說跟我說新簽要做 跟我說已經在教育在高雄 來台北 來台中 來新北做很久的工作了也希望可以當教育服務 也可以照顧教育的使徒因為我要接受的時候 我的主管沒有要幫人"},{"start":302.275,"end":310.034,"text":"秘書長有這個問題你知道嗎報告委員的確是有但是據我我在公務機關已經8年多了"},{"start":312.294,"end":325.903,"text":"到後來都會讓他掉啦到後來啦我實在這個是苦求的,也是歡喜求的因為當然是未來,到後來他也會掉到回去但是在這個過程當中,對他要掉到回去的人說實在,如何煎熬啊真的,我覺得我實在有這個"},{"start":341.175,"end":347.64,"text":"問題,我們要好好去關心,好好用主觀去跟要調的人了解一下,不然有時候誤差很大,很大的,會發生,我也要問這個,如果你們有新的霸凌單位,要申訴的,要不然我看看,你們到底有多少單位,在一個單位可以讓"},{"start":370.996,"end":372.379,"text":"在公家機關可以以霸凌隱秘性的來 必須請你回答一下"},{"start":380.933,"end":398.923,"text":"我們要求就是通報平台轉譯的一定是要是保密系統保密系統就是接觸的人他就有保密義務所以基本上他會受到一些保障因為我怎麼說呢因為有很多我們的電競當中我今天去電競明天的後天我都沒有任何人說我自己去電競而已今天明天的後天主管又找我"},{"start":411.288,"end":412.31,"text":"這也很奇怪,我沒有來任何人說,我才聽證你們的單位,主管又來找我這所以你們要注意"},{"start":423.959,"end":432.026,"text":"主席 還有10分鐘時間在這裡必須聽剛才說的你們要詳細去研究更好更快的不要再讓這個事情來發生要怎麼去做第二點就是剛才蘇朝偉委員有說說到我們的生活的汙水吸收到最好因為我們國土屬的"},{"start":449.462,"end":452.323,"text":"現在就是像我在嘉義市,嘉義市的北京路,很多與眾公寓的區,它的工廠在做,英文一條大排,排出來,都炒公公,你們現在叫我們要改進,要改進,改英國沒有辦法改進,"},{"start":473.012,"end":474.194,"text":"我說是不是,我們有一個管道,因為它也年久過前三四十年,四五十年我們的政府單位是不是想要做"},{"start":487.043,"end":493.387,"text":"生活汙水下水道一樣因為國發會都是關你任何的問題所以你轉換做秘書長的時候我相信你對這個地方的建設非常了解所以我在這裡要拜託秘書長對教育"},{"start":513.579,"end":516.722,"text":"的污水下水道,跟宿泊的座位出來擺出來,他們也可以同仇來改善不要幫人家說,宿泊他們坐的人來改善,這樣英文都不會改善啦這也會對整個的家義區,應用很大的啦,好不好,必須聽"},{"start":540.499,"end":549.263,"text":"因為過去的確是這樣就是說我們有補助我們有編列預算讓地方政府來做這樣的事情那顯然這樣方式還不夠不夠啦所以下一階段我們可能跟地方政府看看要溝通怎麼樣協調一個更好的經濟的機制因為我覺得環境是永續的要做不是我們的生活會有水而已"},{"start":569.313,"end":570.033,"text":"接下來請張宏祿"}]}},{"id":"158608","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158608","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e528d87c67ae6d835e5efe2b3915ec92638d75bdfb612c74e00241d18e79cd8f1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:00:24 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主席有請部長有請部長"},{"start":10.575,"end":34.889,"text":"委員好部長新年快樂 辛苦了謝謝 恭喜這個等一下如果有問到相關的這些我們的就是業務涉及的單位的長官或主管再請你們自動上台是這樣我想這個2025年對於外交來講可能面對的第一個問題當然就是這個川普即將上任那個我請部長先看一下這個是2024年11月16號的照片"},{"start":38.532,"end":52.044,"text":"當時是講拜登任其倒數那麼美日韓成立了三方的秘書處要確保這個所謂印太的韌性但是目前三張照片的三位本來以為只有拜登會換但是現在尹錫悅也被彈劾了然後石破茂是少數執政這三張2025年不知道是三換一還是可能三個全換"},{"start":63.675,"end":87.205,"text":"但是對我們來說這是一個非常非常值得關注的外交話題尤其是今天您講的這個報告就是有關於這個我們的二軌外交或者是元首外交那麼想要問一下就是我們知道接下來川普就任的部分立法院是由韓國瑜帶領了三黨的五位立法委員一起前往那麼對於"},{"start":88.385,"end":107.228,"text":"美台關係的部分那麼部長有如何來因應又怎麼來看我的題目很簡單就是美日韓的這三方秘書處其實他如果整合的好對於台灣絕對是正向的但是川普上任之後大家都擔心他現在不喜歡所謂的區域聯防"},{"start":107.628,"end":121.404,"text":"他喜歡one by one喜歡所謂的你之前也講過的不是孤立主義是所謂的單獨的建立交情那如果是這樣你怎麼來看接下來美日韓三邊的關係的變動那對台灣的影響"},{"start":123.692,"end":145.965,"text":"是因為美日韓的關係是建立在條約或協定基礎上不管任何人執政他還是要以這個為基礎那當然政策的輕重反擊會有所調整這個也是每一位新總統我們在密切關注的那我相信有關於軍費啦或者是說這些相關的"},{"start":148.326,"end":172.74,"text":"就是區域的這個安全的議題應該會磨合出新的方式或建立在既有的條約跟協定基礎上那台灣跟美國當然有台灣關係法這個六項保證這個做基礎我們在這個基礎上我想這一次的慶賀團一方面當然是總統就是這個請韓院長來擔任團長"},{"start":177.182,"end":202.129,"text":"那也邀請跨黨派的立法委員來參與那這個代表我們台灣就是外交是跨黨派那一方面也是要去感謝我想前任政府拜登政府他們卸任他們對台的政策我想這四年來大家都可以看到不管安全還有經濟各方面但是跟怎麼樣去對接跟川普"},{"start":202.709,"end":209.476,"text":"這個新政府因為他現在人事也都陸續公佈我們也很密切注意他們的政策方向那這個"},{"start":212.182,"end":216.444,"text":"就是到美國去我想委員會發揮影響力我看到在美國的媒體當然報導不多但是有一個媒體竟然寫說因為我們派出了這個由立法院長韓國瑜所帶隊的這樣的一個超大型的慶賀團表示說是臺灣呈現出臺灣對於美國關係當中的不安那你怎麼來看"},{"start":238.155,"end":243.958,"text":"是不安還是重視很重視好所以是一個重視嘛對所以台美的關係現在就是持續希望透過這一次包括立法委員的前往包括王定宇委員是我們國防外交委員會的召委他也是台美國會友好聯誼會的會長那麼希望能夠發揮作用那麼你怎麼來看包括"},{"start":257.605,"end":269.701,"text":"台韓跟台日個別的關係那麼你怎麼來看就是這三個三國之間的秘書處包括所謂他們的執政都可能出現變化的時候所造成的影響是"},{"start":272.182,"end":295.676,"text":"那麼其實不管台韓台日都是建立在我們跟美國尤其是印太戰略的關聯那這個拜登政府他有這個所謂的小多邊或把第一島鏈的國家從雙邊的到三邊到多邊甚至變成一個區域所謂的網格狀的這個安全的架構"},{"start":296.576,"end":317.75,"text":"那我剛剛講除了建立在條約協定或者是這些法的基礎上這之間怎麼去合作也有我們看到的這個Quad也有AUKUS也有這個Five Eyes也有這個G7非常非常多的這個機制那這些機制我們台灣當然是跟日本跟韓國沒有直接的"},{"start":318.67,"end":341.643,"text":"就是說安全上面的這些條約或協定可透過區域的交流合作我們也進行了非常多的可以說是互動那這方面當然美國是主要的基礎那新的川普政府的做法我們怎麼樣去在這個基礎上去連結美日韓這也是我們未來外交部的重點工作"},{"start":341.923,"end":368.897,"text":"好因為部長你看我這個題目一問三個司長都得要站到後面了所以顯然這是個相當重要的議題那麼因為今天我們所講的當然就是惡鬼外交是元首外交那麼在這個部分到底可以怎麼樣實質的發揮作用尤其是看到的是國際的變局那麼我們其實也要先提早做好準備或者是說展望2025有沒有預先在惡鬼外交部分做了哪些準備"},{"start":372.314,"end":377.663,"text":"其實我們跟美國蠻多是一軌或一軌半當然也有透過二軌一軌半是什麼意思"},{"start":380.149,"end":403.094,"text":"就是也有政府也有智庫或民間的代表因為交流大家分享其實很重要其實台灣為什麼重要是因為透過台灣是了解中國最佳的捷徑所以我們台灣整天被中國什麼混合戰 灰色作戰又什麼什麼這一些"},{"start":408.795,"end":423.254,"text":"大家都很好奇啊台灣是怎麼走過來的所以我們台灣的重要性啊有個真正的中共的打壓所以沒有台灣去跟他們交流他們很難去了解說那台灣在第一線在第一島鏈的最前線我們是怎麼樣能夠來抗中"},{"start":426.077,"end":450.233,"text":"所以是因為我們的角色很重要人家跟我們交流啦我講到抗中非常重要就是延續剛剛沈伯陽委員所說的喔當然如果穩定的一個友邦的關係包括友邦的政局或者是他們的領導的中心如果穩定的話對於我們政策的延續或是關係的維繫是比較容易的但是如果出現變化的時候包括現在美國由川普來當總統那麼川普2.0對於台灣的"},{"start":456.037,"end":465.941,"text":"美關係現在部長是保持審慎樂觀但是中國有沒有可能介入包括我們知道的韓國現在的韓國可能的接下來的在野黨的這個所謂總統的人選被認為在立場上是跟中國比較好的被媒體認為是親中的"},{"start":476.505,"end":498.257,"text":"那麼在石破茂少數執政底下那麼他現在他講的他要啟動的所謂的大聯合政府不只是自民黨跟公眾黨之外那他還會有其他的政的友黨進來的時候中國就可能有機會可以在裡面做干預那這個部分外交部有沒有注意到這樣的問題"},{"start":500.16,"end":526.998,"text":"我覺得是兩個層次一個是當然美國的角色他在這個對抗中國的威權擴張的時候他需要這些友盟啦大家一起至少做一些溝通嘛那一起能夠來因應但是我們台灣其實在跟其他國家的這個層次上啊也有很多的交流包括我們第一島鏈我想不管日韓 菲律賓 澳紐因為什麼 因為我們都共同面對中共的擴張的壓力"},{"start":529.239,"end":543.456,"text":"所以像最近從中共的這個海警他海警其實也是他解放軍嘛但是他做成了新常態不只是對台灣對周邊國家也是所以這個城市我們的惡鬼外交也非常的平凡"},{"start":546.172,"end":562.277,"text":"另外一個就是很關鍵的是因為川普的即將就任對一些這些第一島鏈或印太地區的國家也有不確定性大家反而更要交流這個時機有時候反而是一個我們台灣就可以分享我們的經驗"},{"start":563.757,"end":575.203,"text":"那另外的方面就是說台灣跟美國的關係在川普總統我想他就職之後我們也都做好了準備他基本上是重商主義但是他主要是對於貿易的這個"},{"start":581.466,"end":606.424,"text":"這個這個逆差他很關注所以我們台灣跟美國的關係是一方面我們會去做好包括不管是投資採購或者是這些有關經濟跟安全方面的一些對話可是我想同樣的中國他面對到怎麼去因應因為川普應該是上任之後會去對他在第一任的時候中國答應的一些採購或是其他的這些"},{"start":608.145,"end":616.13,"text":"會採取一些關稅的手段那我們當然密切關注這個就是屬於另外一個層次好 因為時間有限本席這一個題目其實我甚至於認為接下來也許國防外交委員會都必須要長期的來密切的關注這樣的國際政局的變化但是在二軌外交或是遠軌外交上面慎防中共的滲透因為我們都知道中共在其他的國家面對跟台灣一樣的滲透其實也是著力甚深所以請"},{"start":637.543,"end":641.753,"text":"部長跟外交部在這個部分也許2025年是一個非常需要重視的話題好 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過兩點了超過兩點但是我們總召也有我們的召委也有打電話給你請你回來當他在這裡的時候他可以公佈我們的會議延期啊延長啊對不對但是他回來的時候也看到你在這裡啊我們其他的人也有人在啊"},{"start":68.994,"end":90.808,"text":"所以說他是還沒有開始他可以進來說他開始啊所以但是你接到一通電話你說辦公室的辦公室的人就可以指令說你要回去開會嗎但是你今天你要來這邊開會是你主要的開會啊不是說你要隨時都可以離開說要去別的地方開會啊不是嗎因為按照這個這個沒有因為也沒有理由啊事實上你就是要留下來這邊開會的啊"},{"start":99.249,"end":102.951,"text":"所以一通電話就可以說叫你回去開會你就回去了嗎不是到兩點的時候會議還沒開始超過兩點的時候超過但是你還是留下來表示你有負責任所以要留下來繼續開會嘛但是你看到我們召委又來這邊了對不對"},{"start":117.279,"end":119.72,"text":"但是後來他打電話給你 你也說要回來後來我們也確實也回來開會回來開會 我還在我們的協商那邊我們要協商 還沒有協商完我有邀請說 我們所有的內政委員趕快回來開會 我們內政要開會了但是我們民進黨的委員沒有回來國民黨的委員就回來 連我也回來開會"},{"start":143.35,"end":146.753,"text":"所以在你落跑之前 還有一些我們還堅守崗位的行政員員很負責任也是留下來後來呢 也接到一通電話 他們也陸陸續續的也離開了是你指示嗎 還是說他們自動自己就想回去就回去"},{"start":165.865,"end":180.234,"text":"沒有指示也沒有指示但是他們自動回去的嘛如果是這樣子的話我們是可以隨時就是要來開會就要回去就回去所以沒有任何的規定就對了如果你覺得是這樣子的話我們今天"},{"start":181.395,"end":186.058,"text":"還要省預算嗎還是乾脆就是不用省了所以照我們想要你們要想要編怎麼編就怎麼編我們就是反正就是編就是你們想要的嘛過就會過不過也不會說不會過啊因為說不會過的話你們就說自愛難行啊一堆嘛所以再來問你的就是說我們的"},{"start":209.81,"end":225.303,"text":"五軌搬運的小金庫就是你們的第二億倍金變成就是單位的小金庫想要拿就拿在你知道113年我們第二億倍金編列了多少錢嗎第二億倍金沒有編列在行政院本部的預算裡面是不是是嗎"},{"start":233.762,"end":243.993,"text":"確定喔確定不是我們行政院的你可以查一下那個是編在我們院本部的預算嗎第二億費金是在我們院的"},{"start":250.937,"end":265.775,"text":"不是編在我們院本部的預算所以沒有在今天的不是在今天但是這個也是我們政府的預算之一你說不是但是我們編列多少你是不知道這個是編列了74億"},{"start":271.881,"end":297.993,"text":"第二億北京你說不是我們行政院的不是院本部的但是這個也是我們的總預算裡面的第二億北京所以呢我們是編列了71億你知道嗎我們是在113年所以不是我們行政院這邊的管轄區所以說你不知道所以在我們"},{"start":299.994,"end":308.759,"text":"113年我們編列了74億但是我們用的一倍金只有20億"},{"start":312.166,"end":317.369,"text":"還有就是大概20億到24億所以還剩下多少還剩下了50多億113年還剩下50多億但是今年我們第二的預備金的金額我們114年再編列了80億編列了80億多出了去年的6億"},{"start":340.3,"end":362.76,"text":"這個原因你應該也不知道是不是對你應該也不知道因為這個是整個總預算裡面你都不會注意到這些你覺得這個是是說多出來的話就是浮邊就是要應用到但是我們看到的是這樣子你說的不知道也不知道這個但是呢要跟你報告一下"},{"start":363.661,"end":371.446,"text":"在我們112年交通部他們中央七鄉署辦理七股七巷雷達捐魚的更新計畫他們編了兩千兩百多萬但是呢又在112年又申請了三千多萬就是用二倍金的"},{"start":391.5,"end":396.185,"text":"還有連續兩年啊 他們已經有編列那麼多錢了 連續兩年還在申請農業部呢 他們已經在編列 112年也編列了5億但是呢 又連續 112年 13年 再來申請14億"},{"start":410.9,"end":417.361,"text":"還有我們的農糧署每年編列了10億但是呢就連續同樣的東西再來申請3億這些你都不知道是嗎所以說這個一倍金你覺得不是你的管啥區也你不知道這個一倍金是不是今年就80億就全部簡列了"},{"start":439.258,"end":441.961,"text":"因為越來越多嘛沒有用到去年就剩下50億今年還要編80億所以說我們的政府的錢都可以隨便服編都可以編一編我編嘛你們要剪也是剪我的一些皮馬而已"},{"start":457.981,"end":468.108,"text":"因為一倍金是說因應於氣候變遷或者是救災防護它的需要所以通常會稍微寬裂一點事實上沒用到也繳回郵庫但是我們這三四個單位三四個單位他們來去申請這樣的一倍金如果他們每年編列不足他可以再編列但是他們編列那麼多錢了還同樣的"},{"start":487.182,"end":502.687,"text":"的項目再來應用這個益備金所以我覺得這個部分我們是行政院是管理各部會所以我們要了解說各個部會來去編列預算該不該編有益備來去用但是沒有用到那麼多還剩下50多億我們今年還在去"},{"start":513.15,"end":519.752,"text":"編了80億其他的不會再來去申請自己有編列那麼多預算了還是所以這邊這小金庫比就業暗地基金還好用啊是不是這樣子的意思所以說我們的秘書長今天來審我們的預算覺得很多應該不用審了因為有很多你都不知道以上謝謝"},{"start":543.311,"end":544.94,"text":"好 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麻煩我們的勞動部的洪部長跟衛福部的邱部長和教育部的吳林輝司長好 要進入到今天主題之前 先問兩個部長上週開放80歲以上免聘的聘僱移工已經強制通過"},{"start":34.423,"end":57.315,"text":"先問勞動部這樣子的衝擊是什麼跟林委員說明那確實在我想立法院在修這個救護法46條的時候那可能初衷是在想說怎麼讓很多的家庭看護工的申請人可以更方便那這個我們理解"},{"start":58.095,"end":76.218,"text":"那但是確實在這個跨國勞動力的供給跟需求上面因為供給一直以來都有這個來源母國的限制這完全他不是完全可以操控在本國政府手上的事情所以我們確實很擔心其實這個修法過後"},{"start":77.559,"end":104.305,"text":"會在供需上面更加的失衡那如果供需更加失衡的話可能會導致這個會有一些看護工他這個器重則輕所以會有一些重症尤其他們是最需要照顧的家庭他們其實未來可能要找看護工更困難或者是要留人也更困難的狀況這變成是對於這些最需要的人在他們的權益上面會受到衝擊"},{"start":105.734,"end":112.776,"text":"所以不只是挑工的問題會不會讓價錢往上漲之後讓很多家庭是沒辦法負擔的"},{"start":114.368,"end":140.725,"text":"確實在這樣子的搶工狀況之下可能就會有蠻多的家庭他們會選擇這個薪資上面的負擔要再往上提高那這個可能會是整體的會要加錢或者要提高成本來聘股其實就有點像是當時在幾年前疫情的那個狀況會可能會有點類似那這是我們目前其實大概預判可能會有的幾個相關的衝擊"},{"start":142.224,"end":166.014,"text":"好 謝謝那衛福部呢 邱部長好 謝謝NC我們勞動部的說明以外我接著再補充一點就是我們在其實80歲以上的老人有些還是不一定是需要聘請他的健康狀況所以過去多了一層醫療的一個評估其實這個醫療的巴士量表對醫師來講是一種"},{"start":169.416,"end":193.115,"text":"很不喜歡的責任因為在評估上面真的要非常的小心以前還動輒得救這樣子但是基於對於我們真的把那麼稀少的一個外籍過來的人力能夠用在重重度真的需要的病人身上這是我想我是醫療界也是必須要去承擔這個社會的責任"},{"start":194.796,"end":221.483,"text":"那第二個就是說那個因為我們這些比較稍微還可以自己照顧的我們很希望他能夠到一對多到據點到關懷據點到各個出來走出家裡去跟人家互動那這種所謂的一對多的照顧會讓他的一個精神狀況或者是智能的一個維持會更好如果說你就一對一我就把他關在家裡"},{"start":223.854,"end":244.379,"text":"我們很擔心從政方的狀況來講他的失能的狀況是不是會變得比較快所以好像看起來跟我們2008年WHA提出來的政策不太一樣就是說本來我們就是希望活力老化結果反而事實上80歲結果反而事實上更多的人被照顧之後反而讓他"},{"start":244.929,"end":270.122,"text":"更快的老化那謝謝兩位部長那今天要來談也就是說性平三法3月8號公佈實施之後那遇到近日社會所矚目的臺大醫院的婦產科西教授的性騷案跟兒蒙的性騷案跟麥當勞的性侵案所以本席認為應該要針對這些相關的法律來做討論首先先想要問的是"},{"start":273.264,"end":294.483,"text":"針對於也就是台大醫院西教授的新燒案當中去年初就在醫界流傳一直到去年10月的份有很多被害人一起跟我們的台大醫院院方檢舉才爆發可是其實到今年2月醫院才開啟內部的調查機制想問兩個部長跟司長"},{"start":296.411,"end":304.695,"text":"第一個台灣大學輻射醫院發生性騷案件主管單位是誰用哪一部法律來處理職場的職場的要不要先"},{"start":311.934,"end":333.129,"text":"三位應該是因為看起來那個受害者應該是住院醫師理論上屬於職場的這個性騷擾所以性供嗎還是性騷應該是依照性供法性供法那就是我們的勞動部那就回來再問那就要問勞動部在性供法裡面"},{"start":334.089,"end":350.079,"text":"的確沒有規定可是性騷的話所以就很特別今天如果是性供的話是勞動部那他沒有任何的時間規定可是性騷的話事實上是七日內應該要啟動調查那性貧的話事實上三日內那"},{"start":351.44,"end":373.873,"text":"醫院接受這樣的性騷 那到底要多久發動 你們現在講性供嗎那跟其他的 今天在醫院事實上是聘僱的一個關係裡邊可是實際上它又是政府部門 可是它又事實上是教職間我們的醫職所以難道不是我們的教育部性評嗎 難道不是衛福部主管的性騷嗎"},{"start":376.623,"end":401.014,"text":"跟委員說明確實在這個案子裡面這個教授他可能多重身份他可能有公務員的身份他可能是雇主但其實性供法是適用這些所有的身份的所以確實就這個法就這個相關因為他是在職場上面的案件來說目前應該會是用性供法來做相關的處理好那本案112年10月提出檢舉113年2月就開始啟動"},{"start":405.543,"end":408.764,"text":"台大醫院到底有沒有延遲調查這是不是請台大醫院務院長能夠幫忙再把流程這個案子我們會把整個那個"},{"start":423.723,"end":435.709,"text":"事實上這個案子並沒有申訴人那我們高淑芬副院長她是姓平衛的主任委員她主動知道沒有申訴人的話你們為什麼10月的確你們講說因為這檢舉案當中沒有申訴人可是為什麼2月就開始啟動10月底提出檢舉這事呢"},{"start":443.171,"end":470.236,"text":"就是因為我知道高副院長跟我報告的時候我馬上成立工作小組就是二月馬上成立因為高副院長跟我報告的時候他是我們的姓名會的主任委員他跟我報告的時候我馬上成立所以我才剛才有一加就是成立工作小組六次調查一加六加上兩次的委員會加上一次的考記委員會我們在六月就做出"},{"start":471.212,"end":494.003,"text":"那沒有申訴人的時候根據我們的法律其實它是沒有一個有申訴人是2加1最慢要在三個月做出來所以這個我們都有去就法律層面來看對 信銷的確事實上是要2加1然後可是信憑的話是2加1加1所以我不知道到底你們這個到底有沒有延遲"},{"start":495.1,"end":512.919,"text":"好我想沒有言辭我2月1號我收到學生受害者寫給我簡訊然後我也跟他談過那希望他能夠提出聲明學生是在醫院還是在學校醫院醫院那其實上他現在是碩士班的學生他是醫院的住院醫師那"},{"start":513.719,"end":533.533,"text":"2月2號我馬上就跟院長提我們就根據新改的一個法 僱主之息 新騷擾行為雖然他的本職是在學校但是以我們的經驗他現在在台大院發生這個事情所以我們還是把他納入就開始然後2月5號我們就開始調查"},{"start":534.694,"end":562.856,"text":"那這個過程其實只有三位受害者願意接受訪談那這個要訪談的人相當的多那我們也是要聚集專門的調查小組所以剛才提過我們有六次的調查那兩次的新燒這個會議所以在五月底這個調查結束的時候那我們就把這個做成之後再送給考機委員會所以在醫院的部分當我們知道有這個調查我們其實上就有希望這個櫃部"},{"start":564.677,"end":575.745,"text":"去執行讓他跟住院醫師做分開那他們執行的情形怎麼樣做我們有在follow就是所以在台大醫院的部分他本職雖然不在台大醫院我們是非常積極的那有剛才提到我們的委員以外我們有調查委員我們還有律師可是你剛剛講2月1號開始啟動調查你就接貨可是你4月15號你的婦產科楊主任才被通知要約談那事實上也超過了兩個月"},{"start":593.079,"end":593.301,"text":"已經兩個半月的時間"},{"start":595.452,"end":624.532,"text":"他而且5月才做出調查的一個結果確認新燒的成立這有沒有延遲呢好這個因為調查在這個部分是非常複雜無法在這因為我們要保護受害者他們都不願意出來所以這個整個在調查過程可是你剛講2月1號你們已經接貨了那如果立即啟動調查兩個月內要完成的話你4月15號用大家都看報紙的嘛4月15號你的楊主任才"},{"start":625.475,"end":642.476,"text":"通知被約談對因為這個之前我們都提早約談的話其實這些可能有潛在的不只這些可能會有一些更多的擔心但但是我們立即提供這個雖然我們不清楚說一定是誰我們不能公開"},{"start":643.016,"end":662.539,"text":"但是我們有提供一些情緒的支持等等然後也我不是要聽後邊的啦好那我想我要問的其實這個法律假如是雇主主動支息他並沒有2加1的這個規定這個是法律上面的不周全啦"},{"start":663.059,"end":683.167,"text":"但是我們為什麼會到4月才約談你可以想像假如一開始就約談楊主任這個沒辦法保護受害者我們一定是先調查一定是先調查對你們調查時間也延拖了蠻長的好先問台大醫院的那個事件"},{"start":685.582,"end":709.523,"text":"事件發生地 嫌疑人C教授是屬於臺灣大學 可是同時在臺大醫院任職那由事件發生地的雇主發起的調查應該是正當 可是臺灣大學不是在第一時間應該是要被要求配合調查嗎 因為他還是有教職 如果在教職裡邊有同樣的作為的話 那是不是這個嫌疑人也還是在學校裡邊 因為"},{"start":711.365,"end":718.181,"text":"那更是全是性騷的問題因為他在學校還有任職所以想問我們的教育部"},{"start":726.394,"end":755.207,"text":"過程當中我們看到的那個受害人都是屬於這個住院醫師所以當下並沒有察覺這個行為人跟被行為人是有失聲這樣的關係所以我們當時在二月的時候有同時啟動嗎還是等到台大醫院通知台大校方才開始去處理是調查結束之後是這有沒有應該第一時間應該台大校方應該要知道因為是他事實上是教職兼醫職可是"},{"start":755.962,"end":774.782,"text":"今天台大醫學院畢竟是台大醫院的等於是上邊的主管機關為什麼會不知道所以一樣的就是說那12月19號媒體訪問台大校長陳文章表示說信評會跟教評會獨立運作都做調查發生地的僱主跟聘僱的僱主同時發起調查這種狀況請問一下以誰為主"},{"start":779.57,"end":791.298,"text":"以這個行為人跟被行為人的關係為主因為憲兵法如果兩邊調查的結果不一致怎麼辦呢沒有為什麼說不是聯合一起啟動反而事實上是去分別"},{"start":792.717,"end":801.428,"text":"就剛才講因為一開始的時候並沒有察覺行為人跟被行為人是有失對生的關係沒有他是在同一個職場場域裡頭的這個上下這個長官所以本席認為發生這樣的狀況政府應該介入協調為單一調查的機制"},{"start":809.4,"end":822.446,"text":"本案應該由誰來協調台大醫院跟台灣大學跟委員報告就是這個案子從一開始確實是由這個台大醫院的這個委員會來做是我說那台大校方知道嗎"},{"start":823.838,"end":838.252,"text":"應該不知道 他是等到5月才知道所以對於本案 自始至終雙方的身份大家都應該保密可是這一點認為台大醫院有做到可是如果嫌疑人西教授在調查結果出來便獲准請辭"},{"start":839.973,"end":860.57,"text":"那接下來的程序勢必沒辦法進行所以如果遇到當事人如果不配合的話這如果是離職的時候你怎麼去因應各位報告因為他已經調查完成而且是成立的後面依照教師法就去討論他解聘以及管制聘用的這個部分程序並不會因為他辭職而停止一定會把他全部都走完"},{"start":862.839,"end":886.992,"text":"在調查程序當中嫌疑的C教授持續騷擾被害人還有對性評委員嗆聲那我就很好奇剛剛講說性評的委員的資訊都是不可揭露的那為什麼他會知道性評委員是誰還去嗆聲有符合被害人的保護規定嗎雇主應該要怎麼處置來避免我們的騷擾跟報復所以各位請我們的勞動部"},{"start":894.306,"end":904.456,"text":"就是回你的問題就是說像因為你們還是勞動的主管機關怎麼去避免這種那個跟騷和報復的對保護人保護是什麼"},{"start":909.227,"end":928.568,"text":"報告委員,這個部分的話,僱主要採取的有效措施,包括要立即要做一些隔離的這個動作那剛剛也有提到的是說,像這個被害人的部分的話那他有提出這個申訴的部分的話,那要做馬上的一些立即的一些處理"},{"start":932.698,"end":951.076,"text":"對本案處理上 我覺得蠻多荒謬 後續要怎麼改善 請衛福部跟教育部兩周內提出報告 另外在法官底下案件拖了一整年 到現在都還沒有結果出來那嫌疑人也跑了 被害人最後還是透過訴訟來要回他的權利空轉了一年 所以請"},{"start":952.574,"end":978.32,"text":"把報告就是他們在做司法救濟的時候事實上是我覺得政府部門還是有責任那再來問衛福部也就是孟志凱凱案發生之後9月3號就已經移到你們衛福部來做管轄可是12月又有週刊爆發說有性騷案件受害人上報主管主管竟然告訴他是嫌疑人貼心想追你那後續有六大重點針對他內部的處理機制"},{"start":981.261,"end":1005.796,"text":"想問我們的洪部長在性供法的架構下性騷擾行為是僱主的時候才向勞工檢舉這個案子的被害人卻是事後遭到不當安排而提出檢舉雖然檢舉內容不得而知可是可以理解的是性騷加上不當調職的所生的勞資爭議你處置這樣合理嗎結果事實上是受害人反而被調離職務被懲罰那勞動部可以做什麼"},{"start":1012.697,"end":1038.632,"text":"如果這個被害人認為說這個僱主其實沒有好好處理那那個調查結果不符勞工就可以直接向勞工局來提出申訴那外面的這個勞工局來做進一步的處理他查兩個部分如果他是對於這個性騷擾的認定有問題的話那他會直接來認定性騷擾的部分那第二個的話如果是僱主的責任違反的話他就會去調查僱主責任違反的部分來做處罰"},{"start":1040.551,"end":1053.732,"text":"威福部也想問你現在他已經改立在你們單位了那請問一下你們有沒有更積極的作為他事實上是一個兒童保護團體可是一再的出事顯示專業度不夠那威福部怎麼辦"},{"start":1056.105,"end":1078.447,"text":"他算是一個職場性騷也是一個權勢性騷那如果說他是在我們部裡頭是相關的這個財團法人那也有這個職場主人就場所主人的責任那我們會來要求地方政府對這個額蒙場所主人這個角色他在做性騷擾防治的工作上面加強做督導"},{"start":1080.43,"end":1097.681,"text":"所以希望你們可以幫我們把關尤其這次又發生這種狀況再來就是想問我們的勞動部有沒有去了解這個性侵案件申訴後的會議是主管會議還是調查委員會主管會議可以公開討論案情並作結論嗎"},{"start":1102.186,"end":1124.456,"text":"這個案子我們已經請台北市去做瞭解和處理那台北市已經查證過認為那個麥當勞的這個案子他並公司並沒有做後續的一些協助的這些方案那認定他是沒有做到立即有效補救措施對那一個這樣子的一個工作會議主管會議就可以提做出結論嗎沒有做任何的一個處理"},{"start":1125.892,"end":1154.228,"text":"這個部分的話他必須在程序上面要經過他們要成立調查單位那要成立調查小組在這個屬於比較大型的事業單位在100人以上他另外還是要請用外部的這個調查專家來做協助調查那這個部分會請台北市政府一併再來做一些檢視他前端的這個部分是不是有做到相關的程序好謝謝本案被害人嫌疑人多數"},{"start":1155.615,"end":1161.836,"text":"未成年的兒少要加強保護對象衛福部核實知情 想問部長你們做了什麼"},{"start":1163.654,"end":1189.64,"text":"這一案到113年的3月3號他離職後他到台北市政府的婦幼隊來舉報他遭性侵所以3月3號北市婦幼隊接獲報案之後就進行通報所以我們家房中心是在3月3號之後接案開始做被害人的輔助這個部分是在113年的3月3號而當時他已經年滿18"},{"start":1192.961,"end":1216.321,"text":"特別要跟委員說明好那教育部是不是應該要配合把性侵害被害人保護機制向高中以下的學生去做宣導然後那你們做了什麼請兩週內交報告最後就希望勞動部有勞動部要做的事情希望能夠督促雇主及時開啟調查然後限期提出結果跟"},{"start":1216.801,"end":1234.633,"text":"做出正確的處置那衛福部呢以保護的為要務那不能盡心學校雇主的能力隨時我們要提起我們的訴訟那教育部對於性學校園內的性犯罪的防治教育明顯不足要修正被害人的自救途徑以上謝謝謝謝林委員 謝謝兩位部長"}]}},{"id":"158663","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158663","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5a545289a2eead885c921d2cbf1168e4050eef425ccc1d4da6e0888262ff463d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"14:37:53 - 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時候"},{"start":78.212,"end":106.882,"text":"有勾忌的问题有去查核的问题所以就没有查出来因为还有相关的事情所以这个是我们认为勾忌很大的漏洞接下来看屏东的新闻一样屏东某国小的古兴篮球教练2022年染指五名女童这些新闻我就不要再念了但是呢最后他因为被法院判决说改判不受理所以虽然这个教练没有经过论罪科刑但仍然被法院认定肃刑不良那部长我相信你一定认同这样的教练不能再进入学校"},{"start":107.262,"end":130.149,"text":"甚至是不能再接觸做跟小孩有關的工作對不對對喔對嘛你認為呢這樣的人他可以持續在各式各樣的體育教學現場接觸我們的小孩嗎雖然法院判定不受理但仍然有相關塑形不良的問題而且他確實有男子女童的問題部長你覺得這樣的人還可以繼續跟我們的小孩一起做各式各樣的工作甚至是做教學嗎"},{"start":132.796,"end":148.292,"text":"那個委員是問衛福部問你問你 當然是問衛福部啊因為而上法49條而上法49條歸你們管的啦 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麻煩等一下喔 不好意思"},{"start":22.748,"end":32.741,"text":"口水味道很濃郁"},{"start":76.053,"end":76.833,"text":"麻煩請那個勞動部長村委員好"},{"start":86.523,"end":103.215,"text":"部長好 勞動部的這個臉書先前有傳出這個涉及司長的霸凌你們有處理嗎有 已經在臉書出來前一天我們其實就已經立案調查了因為這個已經被媒體公開那根據這個投訴的內容"},{"start":105.736,"end":132.885,"text":"似乎是部署對於長官的不滿而投訴那整體看起來跟霸凌的關聯性似乎不是有直接的關係整體看起來比較像是在潑髒水詆毀啦那而且還有這個數百字的指控竟然一字不差的由不同的人重複的PO在這個就是重複的PO上去那這個"},{"start":135.017,"end":152.49,"text":"就是說而且這些個人的檔案都是封鎖起來的那最近當然我們也常受到網軍的攻擊那很多網軍的這個帳號也是都封鎖起來的這個和我們平時受到這個網軍攻擊的手法似乎是如出一策的"},{"start":152.79,"end":177.178,"text":"只是說這個內容他不是AI而是說對而是由那個對於勞動部內部的事情寥若指掌的人來就是撰寫的那而且就是說這內容呢裡面內容對於同仁的裙子有多長絲襪穿什麼顏色都知道我想要請教部長就是說"},{"start":179.746,"end":202.031,"text":"假如這兩位可能升署長的司長被鬥下來之後呢後續有哪些人可能可以取而代之那這些取而代之的人有沒有可能又接續著就成為被攻擊的對象或被潑髒水的對象我不曉得部長看法是什麼"},{"start":203.137,"end":227.479,"text":"跟陳委員說明因為這個事件有媒體有報導那我這邊簡單說一個說明我們目前看到這個投訴之前他也透過各種管道有投訴進來所以在他在臉書的留言貼出來之前前一天我們其實就已經找了外部委員立案了"},{"start":228.844,"end":246.854,"text":"那也因為已經找了外部人立案了所以當時我們才把這個留言做隱藏因為裡面涉及到一些個資那我們已經開始調查可是我跟陳委員說明我們沒有從說這是哪一個身牽怎麼樣怎麼樣的角度我想從勞動部的角度我們就是"},{"start":247.774,"end":274.013,"text":"查明事實把事實弄清楚這樣很好都沒有關係但是我想本席今天想要提醒有一個重點就是說當然今天召委排定的議程題目是一個友善的職場那如果說在這個職場上有少數人以霸凌之名隨意指控這個管理者那各式各樣的問題那麼在未來的這個霸凌專法或者這個霸凌專章"},{"start":275.754,"end":300.993,"text":"會有機制處理嗎難道就是說各部會可以容許職場上這種捕蜂捉蠅然後就是說蜂蚊機可查辦的現象嗎那這樣的職場會友善嗎因為我現在其實我們這樣子稍微聊一下都可以看到其實各部會全體同仁上下應該都是人心惶惶吧現在就很多人也是無心工作跟陳委員說明"},{"start":301.934,"end":318.735,"text":"我們基本上我覺得最重要的就是把真相查明那所以也許有人投訴坦白說也有可能是捕風捉影也有可能是用就是沒有明確的事實事證甚至也不是不可能是有抹黑的狀況"},{"start":319.736,"end":343.518,"text":"所以最重要的事情最重要的事情就是把事實查明那我們當然會對於投訴的人陳情的人予以這個該做的保護我們會做保護可是我從一個機制面來看的話我該做的事情就是把事實查明查明勿枉勿重以後再做後續的處理如果是捕風捉影當然也透過事實的查明去釐清沒有這些事情"},{"start":343.658,"end":360.459,"text":"因為我時間有限本席還有一些想提醒的事情就是說我想當然最重要的原則就是說對於任何一個具體有具體霸凌行為的人我們都應該要勿挽勿縱那任何的檢舉或者陳情都應該要具名負責"},{"start":361.28,"end":374.497,"text":"所以未來的專法他是會看到黑影就開槍還是只是嚴查具名檢舉的案子或者是另外調查過程當中難免會遇到這個當事者產生這個影響"},{"start":376.88,"end":396.156,"text":"那所以為了公平那應該說不僅吹哨者要保護那對於被吹哨的當事者在事證未釐清之前是不是也應該要本與無罪推定給予應有的保障呢我會同意這個想法這是為什麼我們那時候在勞動部的這個"},{"start":397.797,"end":420.248,"text":"留言裡面我們認為應該要先做隱藏的原因因為這事情都還在待查明的過程裡面所以我們覺得那個裡面的留言的內容涉及到一些個資應該要隱藏不是刪除好那所以我現在要講的是說你們可以去判斷嘛如果有人天天滿腦子都在想著收集資料然後要檢舉長官"},{"start":422.409,"end":441.219,"text":"那就是說而且這種人還如此熟悉鍾情於這個網路的操作那我就想請教嘛這樣的人他會把心思放在工作上嗎啊大家可以去部長可以去想一想嘛而且我也好奇就是說部長你如何看待職場的倫理跟管理這個問題然後你們"},{"start":443.92,"end":471.081,"text":"都可以去分辨什麼是真正的霸凌檢舉或者只是網路操作帶風向的然後再惡搞嗎可不可以分辨我還是要跟委員說我覺得去透過查明事實包括要對於相關的人做出明確的訪談我覺得這件事情很重要其實如果我覺得每個部會或者是行政機關我們把查明這件事實給做好我覺得也可以讓那些想要透過胡亂的"},{"start":472.182,"end":492.109,"text":"爆料或者是抹黑的人知道這樣子的動作其實是沒效的所以我說還是要說明我覺得要能夠查明是最重要的事情對 所以我們的霸凌未來這個霸凌討論的這個霸凌的專章或者專法應該也都彼此要有一個制衡的方式嘛"},{"start":492.689,"end":520.476,"text":"對所以我也不同意只要有爆料就好像就必須假設這個爆料一定是真的我覺得這其實也不合理我現在要講的是說當然既然就是說檢舉者要具名嘛那被檢舉者要調查那麼調查的結果難道就不需要說讓這個兩造雙方都知道嗎我想這很重要吧而且還是說我們就是這個輕描淡寫然後穿過水無痕"},{"start":521.075,"end":547.138,"text":"沒有當然不是啊那舉例喔我舉例就是說如果調查霸凌成立要實施這個懲處那麼調查的成員跟結果也應該要能夠被直攜才有預防的效果那同樣的道理喔如果不成立也應該還人家一個清白才對那反之這個霸凌或者其他的不實指控不成立誣告的人誣告者難道都不需要懲處嗎"},{"start":548.559,"end":572.66,"text":"我想這個是建立友善職場一個很重要、必要的綱紀那我不曉得部長認不認同本席的說法我是很好奇那個誤告者要不要被懲處,我也想請教部長我認為,我自己的看法是確實會有一些他的陳情他會說這是霸凌,可是實際上他可能是對管理的方式有意見"},{"start":574.022,"end":595.259,"text":"他可能對管理的方式但是其實沒有涉及到所謂的職場霸凌那確實管理可能有各種不同的意見可是我想我們現在很難去說對於誣告的人他就要怎麼樣的甚至我可以跟陳委員說明有很多他如果是想要捕風捉影的他甚至都是用匿名的"},{"start":596.42,"end":606.917,"text":"就像剛剛他可能更多他會用匿名的方法或者是假名的方法來去做陳述這是我們在裡面看到的情況"},{"start":610.858,"end":625.824,"text":"我有看到這個內容可是我還是要跟陳委員說我不方便去說現在去說哪一個爆料就一定是真的哪一個是爆料是假的這件事情都還是要進到立案以後然後由調查的人去確認"},{"start":626.804,"end":643.042,"text":"事實的真相然後是不是吻合然後吻合的話那到底他是屬於哪幾類的狀況我覺得可能還是要進到這個過程所以我自己我現在做一個部長我不是我現在就直接去說哪一個這個爆料的內容是對的或這個爆料的內容是錯的"},{"start":643.723,"end":673.283,"text":"我想我今天也沒有要我今天也沒有要針對個案但我覺得最重要的是我想要提醒部長就針對我們要就是說未來可能要討論的這個專法跟專章的問題有重要的事情我要提醒部長就是說新的霸凌專法是不是適用公務人員你要想一想那如果是霸凌專章那是不是職安法的專章所以只適用這個勞工而不適用僱主"},{"start":674.443,"end":700.099,"text":"這裡的差別我想職安署應該是最清楚因為具有僱主跟合夥者身份的人在工作場所因工作原因並不是職業災害那當然主要是僱主不受職安法的保護所以在未來老闆去霸凌人家或者被霸凌的時候可能就不算是職場霸凌了真的是"},{"start":702.24,"end":724.68,"text":"一個有可能發生的現象那還有就是說霸凌者在勞基法的架構之下是不是還可以不服然後去地方主管調解甚至說要求申訴等就近所以我在這裡本席要特別提醒勞動部面對這個霸凌成立之後呢可能還有問題要處理那何前部長呢因為第一版調查報告而辭職"},{"start":726.061,"end":745.636,"text":"那因為他相信部署那部長 洪部長應該知道是說這部霸凌的專法或專章同樣都是受到我們全國關注的那提醒說要了解這個霸凌專法或者專章的重要性跟差異性在哪裡那我在衛環長時間的觀察啦"},{"start":748.037,"end":772.08,"text":"很多的勞動部長他的烏紗帽掉了一方面是自己缺乏危機判斷另一方面也可能就是太相信文官的見解所以也可以說是毀在文官的手上所以今天我想就是說本席要語重心長的引用何前部長在任內最後一次的背詢回答我們蘇清泉召委的話"},{"start":772.981,"end":782.98,"text":"那這些話呢大家都可以在立法院的公報113卷第102期的307頁找得到何部長他要卸任前這樣講"},{"start":785.083,"end":804.373,"text":"面对庞大的官僚体系其实我是陌生的所以我也非常戒慎恐惧我期待与文官之间发展出合作友善的关系但是我忽略了文官体制之间有难以掌控的陋习跟恶习乃至于我不曾想象的邪恶问题"},{"start":805.333,"end":823.263,"text":"文官體制與民主政治體制存在著很多的鴻溝社群網路媒體對於文官的凌遲和剝削也不遑多讓這些話呢其實是本席要給這個繼任的這個勞動部長對不起 不是我啦我說這些話是"},{"start":824.784,"end":852.909,"text":"那個我們河賢部長給繼任的勞動部長最後的公告那我只是拿出來再提醒一下那要提醒部長文官的這個霸凌跟內鬥這個非冰凍三尺也非一日之寒我也曾經在2016回來的時候受到波及啦 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那我們議事錄確定我們本日的會議議程是邀請勞動部、衛生福利部、教育部就推動友善職場、校園性騷擾與霸凌防治"},{"start":2340.996,"end":2351.22,"text":"及長照杯葛並檢視現行長照制度缺失與長照3.0規劃進行專案報告並備諮詢那我們現在介紹在場的委員陳昭志委員林業勤委員王振旭委員"},{"start":2367.29,"end":2395.553,"text":"讓我們介紹初期的行政官員勞動部部長 洪順翰勞動力發展署 代理署長 陳世昌好 你好 歡迎職業安全衛生署 署長 周子蓮勞動福祉退休師 市長 謝倩倩我每次都讀這個你們母親都這麼好名"},{"start":2398.026,"end":2405.67,"text":"勞動條件及就業平等司司長黃維琛勞動保險司司長陳美女會計處處長林美信密疏處處長丁玉珍衛生福利部部長邱太元"},{"start":2425.854,"end":2443.431,"text":"政府次長呂健德好 歡迎 歡迎保護服務司司長張秀嫣好 歡迎人事處處長李玉慧辛苦你了 辛苦你了心理健康師代理司長鄭淑欣"},{"start":2446.644,"end":2466.531,"text":"社會保險師代理市長陳真惠長期照顧師副市長吳希文歡迎醫事師專門委員郭威中歡迎護理及健康照護師檢論記證陳清梅歡迎"},{"start":2472.168,"end":2491.052,"text":"中央健康保險署副署長陳亮宇好 歡迎社會及家庭署組長游宜君好 歡迎教育部學生事務及特殊教育師師長吳林輝好 謝謝人事處專門委員陳佩君好"},{"start":2498.764,"end":2525.403,"text":"國民及協淺教育署專門委員薛澄祐歡迎 歡迎國立台灣大學主任秘書王大明好 歡迎 歡迎國立台灣大學副社醫院院長吳明賢今天很多人要問你副院長高淑芬主任趙瑜軒好 歡迎"},{"start":2529.738,"end":2553.908,"text":"台大醫學院護舍院北副分院院長詹鼎正好 歡迎行政院人事行政總處綜合規劃處處長陳葉春好 歡迎主編人力處專門委員曾永芳好 歡迎 歡迎公務人員保障局培訓委員會處長黃秀琴好 歡迎"},{"start":2562.441,"end":2564.145,"text":"好接下來我們請先請勞動部部長報告齁時間5分鐘"},{"start":2575.99,"end":2603.125,"text":"主席 各位委員女士先生那今天貴委員會排定推動友善職場校園性騷擾及霸凌防治及長照杯葛並檢討現行長照制度缺失與長照山林規劃專題報告本部應要列席說明並聆聽各位人之建議那非常榮幸敬請委員不吝指教那就本部業務部分報告如下第一個就業歧視之禁止"},{"start":2604.255,"end":2627.792,"text":"性別平等工作法跟就業服務法中高齡及高齡者就業促進法已有明定僱主對於求職者或受僱者不得以性別、身心障礙或年齡等為由而有差別待遇僱主違反就業歧視禁止相關規定者應處罰還並公佈姓名本部皆以多元管道加強宣導防制就業歧視"},{"start":2629.393,"end":2645.863,"text":"職場性騷擾防治的部分是性別工作平等法於113年3月8日修正施行首重強化雇主之防治意識及責任明確界定雇主之息性騷擾之情形應採取之立即有效的糾正及補救措施"},{"start":2646.923,"end":2667.953,"text":"並提供或轉介被害人諮詢醫療或心理諮商社會福利資源等和其他必要的服務完善被害人保護及輔助制度建立外部公權力申訴調查機制對於被申訴之僱主所為調查或懲戒結果不符可向地方主管機關再申訴另訂權勢性騷擾罪重可解雇"},{"start":2669.906,"end":2678.613,"text":"懲罰性賠償規定及最高負責或雇用人為性騷擾行為人質行政法等周延保護被害人嚇阻"},{"start":2680.588,"end":2703.459,"text":"職場性騷擾事件發生此外亦強化公務部門相關人員的權利保障公務人員教育人員及軍職人員如遭受機關最高負責任性騷擾明定應向上級機關所屬機關或監督機關申訴且定有調查期間先行停止或調整職務之規定以利調查之執行"},{"start":2705.083,"end":2727.74,"text":"查證屬實依法裁處後續就計依該各該人事法令規定辦理為使地方主管機關掌握狹內狹內性騷擾事件相關事件並立教育主管機關查詢依性別性別平等工作法認定之性騷擾行為人以避免不適任之教育人員進入校園領域依法僱主"},{"start":2728.1,"end":2739.65,"text":"接獲被害人申訴及調查院定署性調查至案件均應通知地方署管機關本部以建置職場性騷擾案件通報系統定期統計三"},{"start":2742.096,"end":2758.545,"text":"未維護本勞工之身心健康之安全衛生法已經明定雇主對於執行職務且因他人行為遭受身體或精神不法侵害預防之義務不法侵害案件如涉民法刑法或其他法律時則由該"},{"start":2760.706,"end":2787.314,"text":"管主管機關或司法機關依規定調查或認定因應各界對於本部強化職場霸凌防治之訴求包括訂定專訪或修正職業安全衛生法提升現行不法侵害預防指引法律位階明確職場霸凌定義強化申訴管道調查處理及救濟機制本部目前課證收集歐盟美國日本及韓國等國家對職場霸凌預防及處理之做法並邀請"},{"start":2789.252,"end":2816.919,"text":"相關學者專家勞資團體及地方勞政機關共同研議實務務實可行的做法預計於立法院11屆第三會期將修正草案送立法院審查為加強勞工權益保護本部於完成修法前將優先完成執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引之修正強化職場霸凌定義與申訴管道及外部專家參與調查處理機制並結合裁判法人"},{"start":2819.34,"end":2824.765,"text":"這個職業災害及預防重建中心這樣宣導那並提供諮詢及勞工心理諮商等服務"},{"start":2826.966,"end":2854.438,"text":"那第四促進工作平等措施性別平等工作法相關措施性別平等工作法定有產檢假、陪產檢假安胎休養請假產假、孕流停停薪哺乳時期調整或減少工作時間及家庭照顧等各項促進工作平等措施那受僱者如有需求皆可依法提出申請那"},{"start":2856.071,"end":2877.91,"text":"為建構更友善的生養環境已於113年完成彈性短天期滋運流停流質停薪事辦計劃後續將根據事辦結果進行檢討原意優化相關措施那相關的這個我們跟包括跟長照3.0相關的作為請大家可以參考我們提出提出來的報告以上謝謝"},{"start":2881.72,"end":2883.965,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝部長然後繼續我們請邱部長報告 五分鐘"},{"start":2890.014,"end":2915.403,"text":"主席 各位委員先生 女士先生 大家好今天大案第十一則第二會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開前提會議採取成交列席生涯榮幸有關專案報告推動友善職場需要人性騷擾以霸凌防止及長照被革命檢討現行長照制度確實以長照3.0規劃進展參與書面報告以下向各位委員則要說明"},{"start":2915.863,"end":2937.797,"text":"首先 針對推動友善職場及霸凌防治方面本部定有相關作業規定並逐年混同修正以其精進完善請各位委員查列書面報告今日委員關心本部職場霸凌調查報告本部已依12月16日衛環會決議趨勢變化兩週內侵蝕調查報告向衛環委員會報告委員報告目前依舊調查作業方式"},{"start":2945.778,"end":2962.57,"text":"訪談政績呈現方式及調查報告格式及內容等說明也感謝委員提供精進建議自12月17日起至31日起委員會具有兩位召集委員及等13名朝野立法委員聽取報告"},{"start":2964.071,"end":2989.474,"text":"目前調查報告完成後本部已在公開聲明如果新市政歡迎澄清人、域名或有律師並代陪同將新市政交由本部本部當立案處理以共同釐清事實真相澄清的亦可透過行政案已成立之職場霸凌通報平台進行順適該平台對於當事人資料已有保密機制本部對職場霸凌事件當依法秉公辦理"},{"start":2991.776,"end":2996.221,"text":"勿縱勿枉也感謝這次調查過程當中同意而信任我們會確保其隱私"},{"start":2996.963,"end":3021.828,"text":"近百位同仁愿意说明其自身经历以协助厘清事实我们当然更珍惜同仁这次处理的过程也是我们将挑战转化为改进以成长的契机所以除齐门主管应有自我察觉意识及强化管理能力外我们不可及时启动员工协助方案事实接触每一位需要帮助的同仁更有善"},{"start":3022.298,"end":3036.862,"text":"更有活力的職場環境,讓同仁可以發揮專長,實現理想,為國家社會服務,順便責無旁貸的責任其次,針對長照2.0重要執行成果部分,本部於106年推動長照10.7和2.0,提供多元化之長照服務,其113年9月長照服務人士達75萬"},{"start":3047.533,"end":3068.002,"text":"多人較106年成長7倍服務涵蓋率達85.43%本部將增加結合地方政府及民眾資源普及長照服務體系針對長照服務強化方面推動家庭照顧支持服務透過家庭照顧者支持性服務創新型計畫以20%共部件131處加照據點出來為了有利相關網路單位便是高單位照"},{"start":3076.946,"end":3103.262,"text":"負荷者 糾正高負荷家庭照顧者出差指標納入照顧者疑似有藥酒飲使用毒品者自殺醫院為成年照顧者應轉介地方衛生單位或社安網體系等並依長照照高負荷家庭照顧者轉介及負荷程執行提升對照顧者服務接觸之實效為撤進作為上強化縣市督導管理機制"},{"start":3104.542,"end":3124.891,"text":"輔導服務提供單位提供提升醫療服務品質,擴增長照服務量能,除外本部應用不同媒體通路持續強化醫對多照護,照護是專業的觀念先導,其引發民眾控感,藉以翻轉民眾照護觀念,提高其對長照服務之認識及使用意願。"},{"start":3125.373,"end":3130.517,"text":"最後針對長照3.0制規劃藍圖本部將與相關部會持續M3長照3.0規劃內容加強醫療與長照不同體系間的銜接機制重整儲物流程期待"},{"start":3141.318,"end":3165.113,"text":"長照服務對象可以在出院前及已完成照顧計劃擬定順暢服務銜接打造居家社區機構醫療社福一體式服務即可達到健康老化專研善中之目標以上為本部針對此次專程報告提出簡料說明感謝各位委員支持教育監督再次敬致謝誠並請各位委員繼續予以支持 以上謝謝邱部長"},{"start":3176.909,"end":3200.17,"text":"有關本市會議及各項書面資料盡列入記錄刊登公報我們現在開始詢答做以下宣告本委員會的委員質詢時間8分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點半截止還原登記委員如果書面質詢請於上會前提出預期不受理"},{"start":3201.345,"end":3220.06,"text":"那沿著上我們10點半左右休息10分鐘那我們今天可能要早一點就是在蘇軍權委員執行完之後我們處理臨時提案所以有臨時提案的趕快送上來現在我們開始尋答請登記第一位委員陳昭芝 執行謝謝主席 麻煩邱部長"},{"start":3235.96,"end":3253.154,"text":"部長你們那份不公開的霸凌調查報告人事處處長已經到我辦公室來說明我個人看過又完全不能接受那部長你怎麼會去買單這個簡直是這個草率至極的有呂次長交出來報告我想請問你看過這個報告沒有"},{"start":3255.39,"end":3274.667,"text":"你沒有看嗎 沒關係我來告訴你我是如何聆聽跟搶記的搶記 因為他把資料帶回去了部長你看一下投影片我們來看一下這個調查報告內容因為我收到最多的是衛福部來自對祖密的一個投訴我以它為例 因為資料很多以對祖密的調查總共有140份的這個匿名問卷當中有47份指出"},{"start":3279.951,"end":3284.112,"text":"劉祖密曾經歇斯底里的大聲咆哮這個佔了33.6%還有52份的問卷指出劉祖密有言語肢體或心理暴力的行為部長這個佔37%一個33.6%一個37%你不覺得這個調查的內容"},{"start":3299.856,"end":3310.783,"text":"跟這個你的調查結論霸凌不成立有落差很大嗎三成的人都說他有霸凌行為結果調查說霸凌不成立部長發生什麼事情你沒看過對不對你沒看過好你繼續我們尊重調查委員又來了你完全不負責任來除了這個問卷調查報告調查查詢也有進行訪談我請你訪談的人是誰怎麼找的因為人事處長沒有辦法回答我你知道嗎"},{"start":3330.558,"end":3354.557,"text":"怎麼找的好我來教你好了針對劉益君的案子訪問了17個人其中15位都說主命沒有問題你們就用這15個人的說法來說霸凌沒有成立嗎但是其中17位裡面有兩位受訪者寫出了這個東西還有50幾份問卷剛剛我已經秀給大家看了"},{"start":3356.45,"end":3369.077,"text":"認為是有三十幾個person是認為是有霸凌的符合你們定的這個霸凌標準那個這幾份他說什麼劉玉娟在台北業務組沒有直接對我大聲咆哮但我看過幾次劉玉娟對同仁咆哮我不記得具體內容這是17份你們不知道怎麼挑的裡面的兩份有人這樣留"},{"start":3375.02,"end":3392.68,"text":"我們做得那麼辛苦還要被罵覺得很委屈錄音帶的內容就是我釋出的內容已經檢舉人同意跟我當時感受一樣很像他會講的話語氣就是他講的話風格讓我感到不舒服部長你們應該要建立機制啊那五十幾位說他有霸凌曾經經常或總是"},{"start":3396.82,"end":3412.75,"text":"他沒有辦法接受訪談你就隨便找了十七個人裡面十五個人說他沒問題你認為這樣報告會不會失真啊部長如果你是我你收單嗎你買單嗎可不可以容許我請那個召集人理事來他不要不然我還要繼續理事長你好好聽你站著好好聽"},{"start":3413.43,"end":3438.268,"text":"部長你繼續看頭影片上面這個字眼都是匿名的人留下的字眼你看衛福部員工就是你的管理的衛福部員工所用文字寫下來的恐懼你看中間衛福部官官相護只想吵吵結案官場現象對衛福部沒信心難道反應了就有用嗎可能事後只會被弄得更慘無法確保人身及職場安全因此無法留下聯絡資訊好右邊"},{"start":3439.989,"end":3450.314,"text":"我們只是想要好好工作大家擔心的是被秋後算帳我仍在衛福部任職罷被秋後算帳所以不留可見的霸凌行為包括咆哮謾罵冷落惡意批評或貶低等多種樣態也出現明顯耍官威破壞組織體制好左邊"},{"start":3456.737,"end":3475.965,"text":"擔心不可預測的後果會影響後續的權益被罵的最慘的是科長以及秘書同仁身為旁觀者因為工作環境不佳也隨時想辭去公職如果沒有調查到對的人是沒有辦法問出事實的這是你的員工留下的文字恐懼我讓你做參考呂次長你也跟著聽"},{"start":3479.306,"end":3494.438,"text":"部長 為劉玉堅叫人家自殺的錄音檔流出來以後你們記他兩個身屆免監社保司司長但外宣主義他還是 質疑他還是主命啊你一直告訴我們說主命只是幕僚單位替他開脫 你騙外行人啊來看看衛福部的處務規程主命的職責是什麼 第三條框起來的 第二條"},{"start":3504.286,"end":3524.675,"text":"機密及重要文件的處理我當時就是擔心秋後算帳員工不肯講真話我問人事室處長他說他在管理沒有問題我說但是他是你的上司他叫你要看你不給他看嗎現在都不用看他事過境遷他完全可以看因為衛福部的機要跟重要資料機密資料都是他來講理的"},{"start":3528.066,"end":3551.563,"text":"部長在這個情況下誰敢說真話他的職權就是準備處理機密及重要文件之處理部長你繼續下來看理事長你好好聽著來你看看這一張你一直告訴我尊重你又來了尊重這個小組的專業但是調查結果小組名單也不公布調查結果也不讓大家知道我們看看勞動部兩次"},{"start":3553.504,"end":3559.147,"text":"好 勞動部至少在第一次調查報告 載明了調查小組的成員公開的調查報告還傳上網你為甚麼不查這麼多 你數兩天而已你跟我說的藉口 人家勞動部至少做到了你如果不知道怎麼做 你去問洪聖翰怎麼做"},{"start":3572.194,"end":3591.856,"text":"不過彭部長你現在也有新的案子發生我希望你秉持一貫的水準好好處理今天好像又有這個新的案子上次我們要求你公開報告你說私底下跟我們委員講如果有不滿意我們再進一步處理我現在就告訴你我不滿意證據我已經告訴大家了請問你要怎麼做"},{"start":3593.237,"end":3614.822,"text":"你一直上次你跟這個理事長一直說擔心擔心就是說被這個公開報告以後會讓人暗圖所記知道哪些人約談我看過報告就完全這個是這個完全是藉口啊你看我今天報告哪裡看出是誰被約談有嗎所以我今天已經再次提案了我跟總召報備了我要求公開報告重啟調查如果說誰要護短那我就表決我們來看看讓大家看看是誰在護短"},{"start":3623.353,"end":3628.175,"text":"到底誰要互轉動用心高規格然後又不敢讓社會知道的調查內容報告好 呂氏你可以請回了好 邱部長現在我要來看台大醫院 台大醫院性騷案可不可以給我們回答一下好 請說"},{"start":3641.489,"end":3664.56,"text":"我想非常感謝我們陳昭之委員我想對於我們同仁的這個關心我想這個我們大家都是一起希望能夠為同仁能夠創造一個更好的環境不過我想委員您應該我剛剛提到的那些缺點對 裡面的瑕疵阿包委員 那我們也都我想委員也都是在學術界也待過你也做過量化也做過質化研究特別是質化研究裡面我們有對當事人"},{"start":3665.46,"end":3692.862,"text":"你做任何研究之前我已經講了50幾天有問題你找了17年所有人說他沒問題答案就沒問題我想這個都有限所以我想這些都必須所以我不滿意啦你當初我不滿意就繼續處理就繼續處理好嗎所以我今天有臨時離開另外第二點我們這個整個確實整個過程呢我們都是你要想辦法讓人家公開講真話你別說他不肯來我就沒辦法啦那還調查什麼我們本來就是用公開的方式啊"},{"start":3693.382,"end":3722.314,"text":"我剛剛講那麼多缺點 你不要再反駁了你就針對我剛剛講的缺點去處理就好了好 請回 吳院長你一邊聽 你向來說2019年8月台大急診部送診管理室動手摸女同事的腰跟臀部這已經發生了台大醫院博物室第一回2023年6月台大的女教授自己接入自己在當研修醫師時曾在開刀房遇到性騷擾自己站在對方背後去觀摩開刀實況時某教授說今天怎麼這麼小"},{"start":3723.755,"end":3731.943,"text":"一直說某教授無法從背後感知他胸部的大小今年9月 去年應該是去年9月台大骨科部主任強制違憲難怪有人說陽光灑不進白色巨塔"},{"start":3739.532,"end":3754.767,"text":"除此之外去年六月金三科大佬李明斌一時也爆出性騷案他不僅僅是台灣自殺防制學會理事長也是衛福部委辦的台灣全國自殺防制中心計劃主持人"},{"start":3755.907,"end":3775.182,"text":"曾在台大醫院精神部受訓的女醫師向媒體投訴李明斌的性騷行為是一件請聽好喔邱部長可能你還是要再再再席只要在台大精神醫學部受訓過的女性都必須了解被口耳相傳要交班要交班有這件事情"},{"start":3776.383,"end":3789.52,"text":"對於出入精神科的住院醫師來說幾乎是毀滅性的傷害所以當時就有醫師說院內三宿管道是最大的障眼法如果不痛定思痛會有無數個李明斌"},{"start":3791.08,"end":3807.489,"text":"請問吳院長今天台大大學派了個主秘來這個校長真是藐視國會將近一年半的時間你有痛定思痛嗎你們做了什麼吳院長對這個醫師對林明斌的指控你做了什麼還有前面的部分做了什麼指控做了什麼改變"},{"start":3810.493,"end":3830.999,"text":"那我可以先回答一下我其實上面有數據只要有申訴人提出欣賞事實上在院內已經處理從114年就處理過很多的後面還有很多問題那我先從黃姓李教授這件問題我一定要澄清因為黃姓李教授他當"},{"start":3835.92,"end":3863.092,"text":"當那個這不是在這邊澄清問題我們要求的是一個調查報告我們一個制度的問題有有有這個你們要求的報告我們一定都會有剛才我說邱部長剛才我說李明斌的保魂他現在還有重要職位專科醫學會你在乎這個問題嗎還是你們要切割你要不持最高道德標準他現在已經沒有擔任衛福部的任何工作了你確定確定上次上次我們質詢的時候確定"},{"start":3865.733,"end":3894.432,"text":"但是你要用辦法,你不是說這次因為要堵不住那個女醫師出來投訴所以你就做了一個因人設事處理好,我還有後面的台大婦產部主任楊主任楊主任的聲明中提到,你看他自己寫聲明自己獲悉西教授疑似對被害人進行性騷擾的以示以後為了保護被害人或協助其相關保全證據的證明僅私下詢問是否上有其他人證或物證這個楊主任沒說好,一段話三句話,三句話都有問題"},{"start":3895.794,"end":3916.576,"text":"什麼叫自己獲悉?難道這個是正式管道告訴他的嗎?還是有人泄密?不是只有當事人可以知道嗎?他為什麼會自己獲悉?第二個,保護被害人並協助保全相關證據,照理說被害人沒有跟他陳述啊,他不應該知道被害人是誰啊?姓名會調查是秘密進行,他也沒有權利來保護被害人的這個保全證據"},{"start":3918.078,"end":3929.87,"text":"第三個是警司下詢問是否有其他人證物證我可不可以合理懷疑他是在通風暴行帶風向啊他想要問這個被害人你到底知道什麼好回去跟這個西教授說他只有這個問題你還要辦法處理這像話嗎楊主任講這個話像話嗎"},{"start":3937.613,"end":3963.765,"text":"你也知道我們全家都是台大校友該做的事 該是深者之切不對的事就是要做台大校本部你接獲這個投訴案以後為什麼今天台大校長不過來兩邊推來推去 你晚交報告他要把你推回去 聽說來來回回十次到底是誰要隱瞞這個事情啊到底是誰想拖延這個事情啊來來回回 到現在沒有正式的懲處"},{"start":3966.172,"end":3988.385,"text":"我可以給我一個時間我謝謝陳委員提悉性消息拜託主席讓我講好你講沒有就是說你很快的告訴我我剛剛只問一個問題來來回回這麼多次在拖延嗎這件事情其實是院方主動立案因為沒有申訴人我們聽聞有這樣的消息主動立案那第二個我們總共開了一次工作小組"},{"start":3988.865,"end":4010.584,"text":"不對啊 那些醫師考完專科醫師執照就趕去來跟很多人申訴囉沒有沒有 那個都有給我知道 等到考完專科醫師有六次調查報告然後有兩次委員會 而且我們考記委員會你就是持交嘛沒有沒有持交 因為根據我們的那個其實在二月立案 六月就已經做出懲處"},{"start":4011.465,"end":4032.357,"text":"一直說他的報告你的報告不完整啊挑剔你啊沒有申訴人他沒有時間的一個報告但是院方主動根據我們那個性騷髮的那個規定大家委員可以看假如是有申訴人必須要再二加一個院你的處理我還有很多意見好那我再講楊主任並不是"},{"start":4033.517,"end":4056.566,"text":"並不是裡面的委員所以他怎麼會知道這件事呢他還跟當事人詢問呢他被調來做在調查小組裡面的時候他是被叫來問他才知道有這件事情所以楊子潤他沒有講得很清楚再謝謝委員給我一個澄清因為事實上台大醫院這裡未必澄清你講的未必是事實我們都還認證好好沒問題我們都有記錄往下"},{"start":4057.606,"end":4064.612,"text":"兩位部長你們看看台大醫院的這個工會在12月12號就是不久前一個月前聲明台大醫院性騷事件工會會要完善性平制度你們兩個有沒有看到這個這份聲明他向台大醫院院方指出說他說要公佈性平會的成員名單除了可以讓當事人檢視以外也可以加強外部機制但是你們始終不可我想請問你發生這麼多事情以後院長你還強調說這個性平會委員名單不能公佈嗎為什麼人家這個勞動部可以公佈"},{"start":4087.549,"end":4113.312,"text":"然後外部部我覺得公會公會有他們的立場你的姓平會根本沒有成員你們外部專家有沒有外部專家公會有他們的立場但是不一定公會講的都是對的姓平會是不是有這個外部專家有有外部專家你都不公開啊我們這時候都專家當時道德部知事還告訴我們有外部專家姓平委員會還有這一次我怎麼信任呢"},{"start":4116.584,"end":4127.929,"text":"所以我剛剛提出提案啊 你名單又不公佈 告訴我們有外部專家你不要騙人名單是沒有辦法公佈 但是我們的委員裡面有三位外部都是這相關的專家然後每次的調查都還會有兩個律師跟著你說的啦 我看不懂啦"},{"start":4135.413,"end":4141.879,"text":"對是但是這個我只能夠跟你講事情就一直燃燒還沒有結案當事人謝教授也沒有收到懲處還沒有正式懲處對不對還有很多這個居間這個在台大醫院在台大醫院我們是積極的調查我們也立即從這個結果主動調查不管您說的幾位案件現在還是選任"},{"start":4157.796,"end":4168.102,"text":"他們有一些他的本職還是在教職所以在醫院的部分我們絕對是非常積極的調查也很清楚的有這個調查報告這個都有調查報告而且在六月份的時候考機委會"},{"start":4175.866,"end":4199.821,"text":"我跟妳講妳公佈有公佈的方法選選流動部好妳看看好我最後一個因為它不是法律案件所以沒有辦法公佈不是法律案件妳要破壞繼續破壞醫療機構的形象嗎其實我們還是公家單位要有法可依有法可依法行政這件事情台大醫院都依法行政因為我們也主動通報其實妳看那個性騷法只屬的台北市政府"},{"start":4201.301,"end":4218.067,"text":"那個淨沙法裡面都有我想今天我們在立法院我們在公家機關我們做事就是要有法可依有法可行依法行政這一件事情我們都依法行政我們的結果也不只給台灣大學我們也給台北市醫師公會也有給全聯會然後有相關的衛福部"},{"start":4219.608,"end":4238.421,"text":"或甚至你剛才講你批的那個也是送給總統府所以我們完全依法而且立即處理那真的是挑燈夜戰沒有一分的延遲那另外我在這裡也趁機我想這裡有很多媒體我在這裡趁機一次把謝謝委員給我們一次說清楚"},{"start":4238.981,"end":4249.506,"text":"在這個案子裡面在整個調查過程當中並沒有台大醫院並沒有受到任何的壓力我們也沒有收到任何的關訴我不知道這是從何而來"},{"start":4251.445,"end":4257.469,"text":"你要聽聽被害人的聲音啊你身為院長好最後你們是自己台灣女醫師協會對姓名事件的聲明這個我不在這邊同念因為整個姓名三法不同身份中的事件發生或情境的適用不同那看似好像可以適用但是實務進度上可能造成這個法規適用的重疊或者漏洞我跟你講每個機構都有說要申報內部的申報機制但是不好嘛部長你剛剛談到我舉給你看嘛140個人你找出了誰來你怎麼找的"},{"start":4281.865,"end":4298.742,"text":"那台大醫院這件事情都還沒有解決啊這個都醫生考完專科醫師指導才敢出來講才敢跟立委申訴啊表示什麼他害怕啊害怕啊院長請你好好三思齁我這時間到了不然我還有更多的表達好謝謝主席謝謝陳委員謝謝部長還有吳院長啊接續我們請你也請委員質詢"},{"start":4313.235,"end":4339.36,"text":"主席早 麻煩我們的勞動部的洪部長跟衛福部的邱部長和教育部的吳林輝司長好 要進入到今天主題之前先問兩個部長上週開放80歲以上免聘的聘僱移工已經強制通過"},{"start":4340.669,"end":4363.558,"text":"先問勞動部這樣子的衝擊是什麼跟林委員說明那確實在我想立法院在修這個救護法46條的時候那可能初衷是在想說怎麼讓很多的家庭看護工的申請人可以更方便那這個我們理解"},{"start":4364.679,"end":4382.461,"text":"但是確實在跨國勞動力的供給跟需求上面因為供給一直以來都有賴元母國的限制它不是完全可以操控在本國政府手上的事情所以我們確實很擔心其實這個修法過後"},{"start":4383.802,"end":4410.568,"text":"會在供需上面更加的失衡那如果供需更加失衡的話可能會導致這個會有一些看護工他這個器重則輕所以會有一些重症尤其是他們是最需要照顧的家庭他們其實未來可能要找看護工更困難或者是要留人也更困難的狀況這變成是對於這些最需要的人在他們的權益上面會受到衝擊"},{"start":4411.997,"end":4419.022,"text":"所以不只是調工的問題會不會讓價錢往上上漲之後讓很多家庭是沒辦法負擔的"},{"start":4420.631,"end":4445.67,"text":"確實在這樣子的搶工狀況之下可能就會有蠻多的家庭他們會選擇這個薪資上面的負擔要再往上提高那這個可能會是整體的會要加錢或者要提高成本來聘股其實就有點像是當時在幾年前疫情的那個狀況會可能會有點類似那這是我們目前其實大概預判可能會有的幾個相關的衝擊"},{"start":4449.048,"end":4462.08,"text":"那衛福部呢 邱副長衛福部的說明以外我接著再補充一點就是我們在其實80歲以上的老人有些還是不一定是需要"},{"start":4464.362,"end":4481.633,"text":"他的健康狀況所以過去多了一層醫療的一個評估其實這個醫療的巴斯量表對醫師來講是一種很不喜歡的責任因為在評估上面真的要非常的小心以前他動輒"},{"start":4482.714,"end":4508.744,"text":"得救這樣子所以但是基於對於我們真的把把那麼稀少的一個外籍過來的人力能夠用在重重度真的需要的病人身上這是我想我是醫療界也是必須要去承擔這個社會的責任那第二個就是說那個因為我們這些比較稍微還可以自己照顧的我們很希望他能夠到醫隊多到據點到關懷據點到"},{"start":4512.865,"end":4527.734,"text":"到各個出來走出家裡去跟人家互動那這種所謂的一對多的照顧會讓他的一個精神狀況或者是智能的一個維持會更好如果說你就一對一我就把他關在家裡"},{"start":4530.117,"end":4550.645,"text":"我們很擔心從政康的狀況來講他的失能的狀況是不是會變得比較快所以好像看起來跟我們2008年WHA提出來的政策不太一樣就是說本來我們就是希望活力老化結果反而事實上80歲結果反而是讓更多的人被照顧之後反而讓他"},{"start":4551.175,"end":4576.382,"text":"更快的老化那謝謝兩位部長那今天要來談也就是說性平三法3月8號公佈實施之後那遇到近日社會所矚目的臺大醫院的婦產科西教授的性騷案跟兒蒙的性騷案跟麥當勞的性侵案所以本席認為應該要針對這些相關的法律來做討論首先先想要問的是"},{"start":4578.963,"end":4600.744,"text":"針對於也就是台大醫院西教授的新燒案當中去年初就在醫界流傳一直到去年10月的份有很多被害人一起跟我們的台大醫院院方檢舉才爆發可是遲遲到今年2月醫院才開啟內部的調查機制想問兩個部長跟司長"},{"start":4602.677,"end":4610.962,"text":"第一個台灣大學附設醫院發生性騷案件主管單位是誰用哪一部法律來處理職場的職場的要不要先"},{"start":4618.44,"end":4639.385,"text":"因為看起來那個受害者應該是住院醫師理論上屬於職場的這個性騷擾所以性供嗎還是性騷嗎應該是依照性供法性供法那就是我們的勞動部那就回來再問那就要問勞動部在性供法裡面"},{"start":4640.339,"end":4656.335,"text":"的確沒有規定可是性騷的話所以就很特別今天如果是性供的話是勞動部那他沒有任何的時間規定可是性騷的話事實上是7日內應該要啟動調查那性貧的話事實上3日內那"},{"start":4657.694,"end":4680.135,"text":"醫院接受這樣的性騷 那到底要多久發動 你們現在講性供嗎那跟其他的 今天在醫院事實上是聘僱的一個關係裡邊可是實際上它又是政府部門 可是它又事實上是教職兼我們的醫職所以難道不是我們的教育部性評嗎 難道不是衛福部主管的性騷嗎"},{"start":4682.625,"end":4707.254,"text":"那個跟文說明確實在這個案子裡面這個教授他他可能多重身份他可能公務員的身份他可能是雇主但其實性供法是適用這些所有的身份的所以確實就這個法就這個相關因為他是在職場上面的案件來說目前應該會是用性供法來做來做相關的處理好那本案112年10月提出檢舉113年2月就開始啟動"},{"start":4711.809,"end":4715.073,"text":"台大醫院到底有沒有延遲調查這是不是請台大醫院務院長能夠幫忙再把流程這個案子我們會把整個那個"},{"start":4729.989,"end":4741.953,"text":"事實上這個案子並沒有申訴人那我們高淑芬副院長她是姓平衛的主任委員她主動知道沒有申訴人的話你們為什麼10月的確你們講說因為這檢舉案當中沒有申訴人可是為什麼2月就10月底提出檢舉這事呢"},{"start":4749.437,"end":4776.482,"text":"就是因為我知道高副院長跟我報告的時候我馬上成立工作小組就是二月馬上成立因為高副院長跟我報告的時候他是我們的姓名會的主任委員他跟我報告的時候我馬上成立所以我才剛才有一加就是成立工作小組六次調查一加六加上兩次的委員會加上一次的考記委員會我們在六月就做出"},{"start":4777.455,"end":4800.24,"text":"那沒有申訴人的時候根據我們的法律其實它是沒有一個有申訴人是2加1最慢要在三個月做出來所以這個我們都有去就法律層面來看對 性騷的確事實上是要2加1然後可是性平的話是2加1加1所以我不知道到底你們這個到底有沒有延遲"},{"start":4801.363,"end":4819.182,"text":"好我想沒有言辭我2月1號我收到學生受害者寫給我簡訊然後我也跟他談過那希望他能夠提出聲勢學生是在醫院還是在學校醫院醫院那其實上他現在是碩士班的學生他是醫院的住院醫師那"},{"start":4819.982,"end":4839.77,"text":"2月2號我馬上就跟院長提我們就根據新改的一個法 僱主之息性騷擾行為雖然他的本職是在學校但是以我們的經驗他現在在台大醫院發生這個事情所以我們還是把他納入就開始然後2月5號我們就開始調查"},{"start":4842.211,"end":4869.105,"text":"這個過程其實只有三位受害者願意接受訪談那這個要訪談的人相當的多那我們也是要聚集專門的調查小組所以剛才提過我們有六次的調查那兩次的新燒這個會議所以在五月底這個調查結束的時候那我們就把這個做成之後再送給考機委員會所以在醫院的部分當我們知道有這個調查我們其實上就有希望這個貴部"},{"start":4870.926,"end":4881.99,"text":"去執行讓他跟住院醫師做分開那他們執行的情形怎麼樣這我們有在follow就是所以在台大醫院的部分他本職雖然不在台大醫院我們是非常積極的那有剛才提到我們的委員以外我們有調查委員我們還有律師可是你剛剛講2月1號開始啟動調查你就接貨可是你4月15號你的婦產科楊主任才被通知要約談"},{"start":4897.256,"end":4898.519,"text":"那事實上也超過了兩個月已經兩個半月的時間而且五月才做出調查的一個結果確認新燒的成立這有沒有延遲呢"},{"start":4909.255,"end":4930.775,"text":"好這個因為調查在這個部分是非常複雜無法在這因為我們要保護受害者他們都不願意出來所以這個整個在調查過程可是你剛剛講2月1號你們已經接貨了那如果立即啟動調查兩個月內要完成的話你4月15號用大家都看報紙的嘛4月15號你的楊主任才"},{"start":4931.738,"end":4954.119,"text":"通知被約談對因為這個之前我們都提早約談的話其實這些可能有潛在的不只這些可能會有一些更多的擔心但是我們立即提供這個雖然我們不清楚說一定是誰我們不能公開但是我們有提供的一些情緒的支持等等然後也我不是要聽後邊的啦好"},{"start":4958.562,"end":4981.156,"text":"其實這個法律假如是雇主主動之息他並沒有2加1的這個規定這個是法律上面的不周全但是我們為什麼會到4月才約談你可以想像假如一開始就約談楊主任這個沒辦法保護受害者我們一定是先調查"},{"start":4982.697,"end":5004.29,"text":"對 你們調查時間也延拓了蠻長的好 先問台大醫院的那個事件的發生 事件發生地協議人西教授是屬於台灣大學可是同時在台大醫院任職那由事件發生地的雇主發起的調查應該是正當可是台灣大學不是在第一時間應該是要被"},{"start":5006.127,"end":5024.423,"text":"要求配合調查嗎 因為他還是有教職 他如果在教職裡邊有些也有同樣的作為的話 那是不是這個嫌疑人也還是在學校裡邊因為那更是全是性騷的問題 因為他在學校還有任職 所以想問我們的教育部"},{"start":5032.657,"end":5061.473,"text":"過程當中我們看到的那個受害人都是屬於這個住院醫師所以當下並沒有察覺這個行為人跟被行為人是有失聲這樣的關係所以我們當時在二月的時候有同時啟動嗎還是等到台大醫院通知台大校方才開始去處理是調查結束之後是這有沒有應該第一時間應該台大校方應該要知道因為是他事實上是教職兼醫職可是"},{"start":5062.208,"end":5081.023,"text":"今天台大醫學院畢竟是台大醫院的等於是上邊的主管機關為什麼會不知道所以一樣的就是說那12月19號媒體訪問台大校長陳文章表示說信評會跟教評會獨立運作都做調查發生地的僱主跟聘僱的僱主同時發起調查這種狀況請問一下以誰為主"},{"start":5085.834,"end":5090.258,"text":"以這個行為人跟被行為人的關係為主因為性侵法如果兩邊調查的結果不一致怎麼辦呢沒有為什麼說不是聯合一起啟動反而事實上是去分別"},{"start":5098.983,"end":5107.696,"text":"就剛才講因為一開始的時候並沒有察覺行為人跟被行為人是有失對生的關係沒有他是在同一個職場場域裡頭的這個上下這個長官所以本席認為發生這樣的狀況政府應該介入協調為單一調查的機制"},{"start":5115.66,"end":5128.716,"text":"本案應該由誰來協調台大醫院跟台灣大學跟委員報告就是這個案子從一開始確實是由這個台大醫院的委員會來做我說那台大校方知道嗎"},{"start":5130.104,"end":5144.514,"text":"應該不知道 他是等到五月才知道所以對於本案 自始至終雙方的身份大家都應該保密可是這一點認為台大醫院有做到可是若嫌疑任希教授在調查結果出來便獲准請辭"},{"start":5146.235,"end":5166.833,"text":"那接下來的程序勢必沒辦法進行所以如果遇到當事人如果不配合的話這如果是離職的時候你怎麼去因應各位報告因為他已經調查完成而且是成立的後面依照教師法就去討論他解聘以及管制聘用的這個部分程序並不會因為他辭職而停止一定會把他全部都走完"},{"start":5169.082,"end":5193.258,"text":"在調查程序當中嫌疑的C教授持續騷擾被害人還有對性評委員嗆聲那我就很好奇剛剛講說性評的委員的資訊都是不可揭露的那為什麼他會知道性評委員是誰還去嗆聲有符合被害人的保護規定嗎雇主應該要怎麼處置來避免我們的騷擾跟報復所以各位請我們的勞動部"},{"start":5200.549,"end":5210.721,"text":"就是回你的問題就是說像因為你們還是勞動的主管機關怎麼去避免這種那個跟騷和報復的對保護人保護是什麼"},{"start":5215.472,"end":5234.874,"text":"報告委員,這個部分的話,僱主要採取的有效措施,包括要立即要做一些隔離的這個動作那剛剛也有提到的是說,像這個被害人的部分的話那他有提出這個申訴的部分的話,那要做馬上的一些立即的一些處理"},{"start":5238.944,"end":5257.334,"text":"對本案處理上 我覺得蠻多荒謬 後續要怎麼改善 請衛福部跟教育部兩周內提出報告 另外在法官底下案件拖了一整年 到現在都還沒有結果出來那嫌疑人也跑了 被害人最後還是透過訴訟來要回他的權利空轉了一年 所以請"},{"start":5258.837,"end":5284.565,"text":"把報告就是他們在做司法救濟的時候事實上是我覺得政府部門還是有責任那再來問衛福部也就是兒夢自凱凱案發生之後9月3號就已經移到你們衛福部來做管轄可是12月又有週刊爆發說有性騷案件受害人上報主管主管竟然告訴他是嫌疑人貼心想追你那兒夢後續有六大重點針對他內部的處理機制"},{"start":5287.523,"end":5315.244,"text":"想問我們的洪部長在性供法的架構下性騷擾行為是僱主的時候才向勞工檢舉這個案子的被害人卻是事後遭到不當安排而提出檢舉雖然檢舉內容不得而知可是可以理解的是性騷加上不當調職的所生的勞資爭議你處置這樣合理嗎結果事實上是受害人反而被調離職務被懲罰那勞動部可以做什麼"},{"start":5318.959,"end":5344.879,"text":"如果這個被害人認為說這個僱主其實沒有好好處理那那個調查結果不符勞工就可以直接向勞工局來提出申訴那外面的這個勞工局來做進一步的處理他查兩個部分如果他是對於這個性騷擾的認定有問題的話那他會直接來認定性騷擾的部分那第二個的話如果是僱主的責任違反的話他就會去調查僱主責任違反的部分來做處罰"},{"start":5346.796,"end":5359.975,"text":"威福部也想問你現在已經改立在你們單位了那請問一下你們有沒有更積極的作為它事實上是一個兒童保護團體可是一再的出事顯示專業度不夠那威福部怎麼辦"},{"start":5362.367,"end":5384.677,"text":"職場 他算是一個職場性騷 也是一個權勢性騷那如果說他是在我們部裡頭是相關的這個財團法人那也有這個職場主人 就場所主人的責任那我們會來要求地方政府對這個額蒙場所主人這個角色 他在做性騷防治的工作上面加強做督導"},{"start":5386.673,"end":5403.939,"text":"所以希望你們可以幫我們把關尤其這次又發生這種狀況再來就是想問我們的勞動部有沒有去了解這個性侵案件申訴後的會議是主管會議還是調查委員會主管會議可以公開討論案情並作結論嗎"},{"start":5408.431,"end":5430.728,"text":"這個案子我們已經請台北市去做瞭解和處理那台北市已經查證過認為那個麥當勞的這個案子他並公司並沒有做後續的一些協助的這些方案那認定他是沒有做到立即有效補救措施對那一個這樣子的一個工作會主管會就可以提做出結論嗎沒有做任何的一個處理"},{"start":5432.157,"end":5456.028,"text":"這個部分的話他必須在程序上面要經過他們要成立調查單位那要成立調查小組在這個屬於比較大型的事業單位在100人以上他另外還是要請用外部的這個調查專家來做協助調查那這個部分會請台北市政府一併再來做一些檢視他前端的這個部分是不是有做到相關的程序"},{"start":5457.193,"end":5468.084,"text":"好 謝謝本案被害人嫌疑人都是未成年的兒少 要加強保護對象衛福部核實知情 想問部長你們做了什麼"},{"start":5469.917,"end":5495.903,"text":"這一案到113年的3月3號他離職後他到台北市政府的婦幼隊來舉報他遭性侵所以3月3號北市婦幼隊接獲報案之後就進行通報所以我們加防中心是在3月3號之後接案開始做被害人的輔助這個部分是在113年的3月3號而當時他已經年滿18"},{"start":5499.204,"end":5522.584,"text":"特別要跟委員說明好那教育部是不是應該要配合把性侵害被害人保護機制向高中以下的學生去做宣導然後那你們做了什麼請兩週內交報告最後就希望勞動部有勞動部要做的事情希望能夠督促雇主及時開啟調查然後限期提出結果跟"},{"start":5523.044,"end":5543.674,"text":"做出正確的處置那衛福部呢以保護的為要務那不能盡興學校僱主的能力隨時我們要提起我們的訴訟那教育部對於性學校園內的性犯罪的防治教育明顯不足要修正被害人的自救途徑以上謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝兩位部長那接續我們請陳清威委員"},{"start":5555.773,"end":5561.994,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝官員還有委員們 首先我想請台大醫院院長還有台大大學的主秘"},{"start":5567.406,"end":5587.579,"text":"剛剛從許多委員的質詢中都已經聽出來了這次的所有這些性騷擾相關案件是黃腔折粄我剛剛其實是非常難過因為我看到院長面對前兩位委員其實中間還有笑這樣子的樣子我這邊有非常多女醫師陳情的管道"},{"start":5588.439,"end":5601.474,"text":"很多人現在已經在看身心科中度憂鬱症了看到你在鏡頭前面笑情何以堪啊難道女醫師在你心中不是醫師嗎不是你台大醫院的員工嗎你可以為女醫師主持公道嗎我請問你院長我請問你"},{"start":5614.519,"end":5627.634,"text":"我覺得這是兩碼子事兩碼子事請不要用這樣子來做一個人身攻擊我自己笑是不是說我是對因為委員"},{"start":5630.017,"end":5657.964,"text":"我絕對沒有人身攻擊我的意思是說這件事一是體大我很希望院長您可以嚴肅的面對我請問您院長這幾年來我現在在網路上看到您知道台大醫院有一個綽號叫寶山醫院吧您知道嗎最近又多了一個綽號叫杏燒醫院您知道貴院有一位王姓的骨科主任因為杏燒研究助理而告上法院這件事您知道吧"},{"start":5658.649,"end":5673.57,"text":"而且這件事情我且知道而且我們也因為王姓主任因為這樣他的主任就去職了所以他還在上班他主任就被... 郎一郎一還在歸原上班所以網路上說台大醫院就是性騷醫院沒有錯啊"},{"start":5674.031,"end":5685.306,"text":"沒有 我剛才已經講過我們可以做我們醫院在法律上給我們的一個權責我要開除他 院長也沒有這個權責開除他我們要開除一個醫師"},{"start":5689.631,"end":5715.72,"text":"是有一定的一個定額程度剛剛教育部剛剛教育部已經來了教育部其實有頒布一個規定您剛講得非常的清楚有許多的地方的學校教育部是說這個教師假使有涉及性騷等等是終身不得聘用沒錯吧教育部是這樣建議大家的沒錯吧王信主任有沒有教職有沒有他有教職"},{"start":5717.321,"end":5732.79,"text":"所以我們今天為什麼要把衛福部教育部勞動部全部都找出來等一下我們一一來問好除了王姓主任是不是還有一位正姓的婦科主任也被涉嫌下藥性侵是不是有有嗎有嗎您知道嗎"},{"start":5737.228,"end":5765.927,"text":"這件事情我們很早就處理在法律還沒有因為他現在還在走法律的程序法律還沒有解決的時候院方已經解決所以這位醫師早就已經離職了所以這位醫師最近是不是又申請要復聘嗎他是不是申請要復聘跟那個剛才那個C姓因為是同一科所以這兩件事情可能大家把它搞在一起沒有搞在一起我是從前面開始問"},{"start":5767.108,"end":5775.336,"text":"他沒有 他沒有 這位醫師已經不在台大醫院也沒有在 我相信校方也知道那校方最近他有沒有申請復聘 他有沒有應該是沒有這回事 請跟委員報告好 那我想知道說校方跟院方剛剛從副院長的口中聽起來你們是2月收到簡訊知道這件事的 正確嗎2月"},{"start":5793.348,"end":5814.464,"text":"校方沒有收到是院方院方所以我剛才講的我在這裡再重申一次我們整個的流程非常清楚而且我也有給啊貴院因為只要有來醫院公文來我都有把整個調查的過程就是有關於吸性是在2月我們知道而且是我們的啊高主任委員他"},{"start":5815.465,"end":5841.494,"text":"主動跟我報告我們馬上就成立工作小組那成立工作小組我們還是我們要依法行政我們還是要有一個行政的流程而且我們當初希望這個可以正式的申訴但是受害者都不願意所以我們說我們用雇主之息也被查二魚也覺得這件事蠻嚴重的所以雇主之息您開始啟動調查但是您沒有覺得嚴重到要通知校防沒有"},{"start":5841.934,"end":5859.024,"text":"你還沒有調查完以後我們是調查整個已經成立而且我們在6月就開考記委會就記大過一次那時候我們就把整個也通知校方那另外我們也通知那個台北市因為根據那個新商房黃志華假如沒有生"},{"start":5860.124,"end":5865.149,"text":"是直轄市的主管機關所以我們都有按照法律所以院長的意思是說有深喉嚨去跟媒體爆料其實12月就投訴給院方這件事應該是錯的沒有12月沒有投訴我們那個高主任這件事是錯的我只是幫你澄清謝謝幫你澄清因為12月才知道"},{"start":5880.325,"end":5884.816,"text":"好你2月才知道ok2月搞到現在已經2025年1月了請問台大校方你們的新評會教評會到底還要拖多久"},{"start":5891.735,"end":5910.329,"text":"是跟委員報告一下就是說的確是六月台大收到台大醫院過來的報告之後我們事實上就已經開過在七月我們就開過教評會那把這個後面的程序就確認因為還有台大的校方也有性評會那怎麼樣"},{"start":5911.65,"end":5917.972,"text":"在這個報告啊做一些確認跟釐清所以這個報告的確認跟釐清你覺得問題在哪裡所以你現在是在說院方給您的這個報告需要再確認跟釐清報告委員這個是就是程序的問題因為那個報告是台大的性評做的那到了學校學校因為要牽扯到後數後續成熟的"},{"start":5933.456,"end":5948.769,"text":"懲處的問題那在懲處的時候在我們的校教評會就需要有一個性評會這邊所以我們只是請這個台大這邊的性評會做一個報告的確認如果有一些要釐清的地方就進行釐清"},{"start":5949.69,"end":5952.971,"text":"那你這個釐清還要多久你只要告訴大家釐清還要多久整個程序大概都已經都走完了那我們會在下一次的教評會下一次教評會是什麼時候應該就是在這個月應該是這個月應該就會所以你們就會宣布給全國的因為這樣講我們會做完"},{"start":5971.656,"end":5979.021,"text":"因為懲處就跟我們之前陳校長說的這個是校教評會的職權他懲處完就是做成報告之後會議紀錄也確認之後我們還會報教育部做確認以後我們可以請教育部先回座沒關係我們請那個勞動部剛剛那位司長剛剛勞動部的司長講得非常好我們應該要積極的保護受害人來那個台大醫院院長台大醫院院長"},{"start":5999.294,"end":6025.966,"text":"這邊也是深喉嚨講的12月17號在早上的10點到下午的3點之間還目擊C教授出現在台大醫院兒醫大樓婦產科樓層完全無視台大醫院為保護受害人的公文要求婦產科對C教授的行動範圍進行管制我想知道吳院長是否有發這個公文希望對他的行動範圍進行管制 您有發嗎"},{"start":6027.967,"end":6057.268,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員那一天是來看牙齒然後看完以後他就確實有去然後我們知道以後我們就請院方有請警衛去而且我們也下了一個公文就是今後只要看到他進入婦產部我們警衛就會把他那天他去婦產部幹嘛他不是已經離職了所以我們接到這個訊息以後我們就馬上院方就請那你之後會如何保護這些受害人"},{"start":6057.808,"end":6076.644,"text":"我們我相信他應該不能進入婦產部因為我們已經把他的那個卡都收回來因為我們婦產部跟兒科部他要進入那個都是要有刷卡所以他已經沒有卡那一天他怎麼進去的我們還在調查說到底是誰幫他開"},{"start":6077.825,"end":6088.902,"text":"所以你大概兩週內可以給我們這個報告嗎他是怎麼接觸到這些受害人的還有他怎麼進去的以及他有沒有遇到前列的這些受害人"},{"start":6090.426,"end":6114.384,"text":"這個好像是沒有因為那一天包括我們高副院長還有另外一位所以你們當天其實是有收到有人檢舉他又出現了那還有其他天嗎其他天就沒有了這一天以外因為那一天以後我們就加強那個管控本來兒醫大樓的那個特別是病房區都有刷卡才能進去除非你按"},{"start":6115.505,"end":6125.361,"text":"裡面的人開門你才能進去假如沒有卡那我知道的西信主席醫師他的卡很早我們就收回因為他已經離職了"},{"start":6126.462,"end":6147.962,"text":"好那我們就兩個禮拜靜候您的報告還有您未來要如何加強保護您身為醫師其實你知道女醫師要就是師徒制手把手的有時候交看診交開刀寫論文一起出國開會你看有多少全市的機會有辦法進行這些惡行這些您都可以理解吧"},{"start":6148.662,"end":6171.728,"text":"其實我可以我可以理解而且我們也很重視那我這順便謝謝陳委員給我這個機會去做澄清那我也在做剛才你說我在笑其實是沒有這是我們我們先不要說我們今天就好好的來討論這件事情我先跟你講剛剛你說你是因為雇主實習知道依照性別平等法第13條的規定"},{"start":6173.869,"end":6186.756,"text":"但是沒有申訴人的話其實這個整個調查或是報告會在一個秘密的過程而且其實是不需要懲處的我想知道當你沒有申訴人的時候為什麼你要去懲戒呢"},{"start":6187.686,"end":6211.305,"text":"為什麼因為這個案子非常重大其實在我們110年開始我們院方都有處理過很多性騷的案子在我的資料裡面110年我們接受到七件七件都成立而且都有做懲處其實每年都有那這件事情比較特別因為我覺得這一個醫師他的權勢這麼高而且備份這麼高"},{"start":6213.626,"end":6238.12,"text":"發生這麼事情雖然沒有申訴人但是我們一定要主動所以那時候我就跟高副院長講說這個一定要勿往勿中因為這個影響會很大所以其實你的意思是說雇主之息但其實是因為透過簡訊之息但這個人不想申訴啦不想申訴其實是不想申訴並不是沒有申訴人嘛對不對所以你就知道這個影響有多大他還在那邊工作"},{"start":6238.7,"end":6267.428,"text":"不敢申訴所以這不是勞動部教育部應該要積極的協助這些弱勢的比較還沒有通過執照的女醫師我們今天就是希望好好來討論這件事嘛但院長好這樣看起來不管是你申訴或是耳聞我希望你把它變成一個正式的台大醫院或者是我們可以讓每一個醫院來看我們如何去保護這些學生階級的醫師好嗎不要再被人家寫性騷醫院了"},{"start":6268.168,"end":6271.872,"text":"真的很丟臉再來我們要請那個台大校方為什麼我們要這麼擔心黑箱審查因為你們是不是去年7月才被監察院糾正你們的教評會跟性評會才被監察院糾正"},{"start":6285.89,"end":6305.418,"text":"的確是監察院是有來喊是對啊我們不能從性騷醫院又變成性騷大學監察院裡面講得非常的明確他說你們台大跟其他學校比起來啊其他學校淡江中正輔仁抓到有教師有性騷擾就是終身解聘結果你們的"},{"start":6306.238,"end":6322.228,"text":"姓平慧叫平慧面對一位公衛學院副教授性騷案的時候指出這位教師所受到的處罰跟其他學校類似案件是完全無法比擬在會議紀錄上更刻意隱瞞該名建議輕罰的委員也就是說"},{"start":6324.369,"end":6348.097,"text":"你們已經比別人判得少了 你們說要停職三年然後你們在這個姓評會還有校評會裡面居然有匿名的委員跟大家和諧 跟大家說好啦我們一起把他把三年改成一年最後你們被監察院糾正你們這批人七月被監察院糾正然後現在又要去開這個C教授的校評會跟姓評會你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":6351.356,"end":6364.812,"text":"報告委員我們的教評會委員事實上是每一年都會不一樣的那他們是獨立的運作那的確是整個程序當中就是性評會教評會他們都有開會那這個結果"},{"start":6369.918,"end":6396.352,"text":"對 你就簡單的回答我你們被糾正以後有想要檢討性評會跟教評會嗎還是你們覺得不會我們做得很棒棒很好這個跟委員報告一下台大我也利用這個機會跟大家重申這個不管是台大或剛剛院長也講了台大醫院我們都會很重視性評而且我們是就是對性評是零容忍所以發生任何的事情我們都一定會依法"},{"start":6397.252,"end":6421.469,"text":"積極的處理那法律上該做的我們都會那我稍微問一下像我們像立法院的範圍委員他其實也在台大教授婦女性別相關的課程你們台大零零種種這些性別相關學程啦三四十個少說三四十個是不是你們的性評會成員都沒有一個是來自這個性別或是婦女相關的沒有"},{"start":6422.109,"end":6442.736,"text":"是 報告委員這個部分我們有討論過因為本來我們的性平委員就各個院來推薦那校長這邊是有一個有幾個名額是可以邀請相關的專家那我們今年開始會把我們性別這邊的教授至少會有一個人會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平委員會在我們的性平"},{"start":6443.656,"end":6459.949,"text":"這個性評會裡面至少一個人所以表示你們以前沒有上一屆的性評是沒有這個做性別平等研究的老師那但是各個學院可能派來的人他本身就是性評的專家這是有的譬如說"},{"start":6460.609,"end":6466.854,"text":"沒有 我查了他們都沒有在學程裡面授課性別相關所以你是如何認證他具有參加性評會的資格那個就我剛剛講各個學院他們會推薦他們覺得就是說比較合適當性評的委員那這個部分"},{"start":6475.74,"end":6490.437,"text":"如果他是專業的不管是他有教這個課或他相關的研究我跟你們說你才剛被糾正所以這件事情全國的人都在看尤其是女醫師女學生研究醫師 助業醫師全國人都在看我分享一個哲學家"},{"start":6491.098,"end":6516.182,"text":"和納厄蘭說的平庸的邪惡 他在講說當一群人不制止惡行 反而當作是正常的原本就是這樣做 長期都是這樣做來縱容甚至參與其中就是在助長邪惡所以我希望你最後的姓評會 校評會的報告可以還給這些受害人一個公道 好嗎是 我們一定會好好的調查跟做清楚謝謝三位 跟冷魂精對不起 那個邱部長"},{"start":6525.543,"end":6544.814,"text":"邱部長這個是您前幾天12月30號回應許多民團啊因為您知道我們在日皇委員會也有講不管是針對這些幼教的郎師啊或是保姆等等我們都會設置一個平台讓大家安心你說針對郎醫你要可以研擬可以研擬是你要做還是你不要做還是你會研擬會不會研擬因為你只有說可以研擬"},{"start":6548.171,"end":6574.363,"text":"好 我想我們要整整 剛剛今天整個過 討論整個早上討論 相關的一個一個機制 不管是從學校 職場 醫院已經討論很多 那基本上衛福部當然是一直關注的做我們應該要做的事情那有關於要建立 郎醫院有這樣的一個建議我們認為有建立一個平台來公布這樣的資訊其實是"},{"start":6577.745,"end":6605.207,"text":"看起來是值得研議的所以要研議好那我會再追您的研議的進度好的好再來這個我不知道您有沒有聽聞您最近要開始推30歲免費健檢這個是個德政我覺得非常的好利益良善可是您知道衛福部有發了一份文件叫做醫事服務機構辦理預防保健服務注意事項您知道這件事嗎"},{"start":6607.202,"end":6635.75,"text":"這個我大概知道你知道炸鍋了嘛對不對好我們就簡單的跟大家講一下現在雖然你宣傳成人健檢下降到30歲但是你發了另外一份文件跟第一線的醫護人員說如果這些人原本就有三高有定期檢查有定期治療或者是有被糖尿病P4P計畫收案提供的衛福部將不會核付這筆費用那你應該看得出問題在哪裡吧"},{"start":6636.43,"end":6661.839,"text":"然後謝謝陳委員給我這個機會再度跟全國的醫療院所說明經過國民健康署的一個澄清明年度絕對不會去做這個部分的勾結為什麼因為我們要站在人民的立場而不是站在會計或者是我們公務的立場那因為在公務上面我想委員可能也我過去幾十年也接過很多"},{"start":6662.754,"end":6685.126,"text":"衛福部的各個局屬的計畫管制的非常嚴格而且不能有重複所以我們這個可能是可能是事務單位很擔心你前面這麼嚴重現在這麼嚴重是不是重複但是我覺得站在醫師的立場還有病人的立場我現在先講醫師醫師不會這麼說醫師一定知道說他有說我利用自己抽兩瓶"},{"start":6692.712,"end":6708.917,"text":"對不對 不可能嘛 哪一個醫師會做這種事嗎一定是這裡可以做UOT 這裡可以做我一定是顯或者是兩個中間起來站在病人最佳的一個利益來做一個專業的處理一般都是這樣子所以這個部分跟我們行政部門的一個互動"},{"start":6709.737,"end":6725.707,"text":"在這個部分是有個需要GAP部長我跟你講一件事有三個面向要分析第一個你跟全國的人說可以做健檢這個很棒但是第二個你沒有跟全國的人說但是你有三高不能喔這個你沒說喔所以你的正義宣導就有問題"},{"start":6727.068,"end":6753.463,"text":"那當然這些人也會覺得說我已經繳健保費了我本來就應該要做這個你提供的30歲健檢而且部長您太久沒有在第一線了光是把兩張醫師卡跟健保卡插好並且連到VPN再去找他有沒有糖尿病我告訴你我帶著你操作一遍你就知道要花多久不可能整個早上都在做這件事情所以這件事我們一定要從IT端去克服你才可以執行這樣子好嗎"},{"start":6754.997,"end":6774.069,"text":"報告委員我是去年的520上任以後才沒有接觸第一線過去40年每一個禮拜都看見當立委的時候因為我有義務我是借調的我有義務回去做指導門診這個事情我非常感謝你了解這基層的聲音真的要處理而且是國健是"},{"start":6779.853,"end":6796.751,"text":"國健署已經馬上在處理請全國醫療院所安心我們一定會把他處理到北南需要什麼檢查我們盡量都做完整的一個健康檢查來落實健康台灣真的一個目標好那我們也會再繼續追您在這個IP端的進度謝謝 謝謝部長謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":6802.557,"end":6817.254,"text":"看一個診看完從開始來插雙卡三卡到看結束要跳二十幾個畫面要跳二十幾個畫面真的是蠻麻煩的好我們接續請邱正清委員質詢"},{"start":6825.472,"end":6829.978,"text":"好謝謝主席我以為我要再等一下我以為換你質詢了好我們請邱部長"},{"start":6840.673,"end":6860.271,"text":"我看今天召委排案特別要求教育部跟台大醫師跟台大來你們就應該知道我們今天要問什麼剛剛也好幾位委員也在問這件事情所以關於台大西教授的這個性騷事件您之前的回答我還聽不太懂"},{"start":6861.112,"end":6886.548,"text":"那過了兩週那我們衛福部跟教育部應該已經掌握了吧應該有部長你掌握了多少我想這個部分今天早上已經談了我們從工作場他的工作領域開始調查那台大醫院整個過程我們從剛剛院長跟台大校方的報告是一直持續在做那那個"},{"start":6888.052,"end":6906.487,"text":"我們就是有性平三法我們會按照這三法來照顧我們做我們應該做的事情這個是去年那個我們113年3月4號賴清德總統公布的這個健康促進委員會的名單這個西教授有沒有在裡面我看一下名單"},{"start":6913.044,"end":6935.911,"text":"至少真正開會的時候是沒有的真正開會的時候沒有?你確定沒有嗎?確定沒有,因為我都有參與我知道他被踢炮性騷之後,去年8月15號已經被委員會除名了那9月台大校方還沒有懲處前就申請離職這一系列的操作你不覺得很剛好嗎?"},{"start":6940.202,"end":6967.453,"text":"據剛剛台大醫院跟台灣大學的部分都有按照程序在進行那他從九月台大離職這個醫師當然有他他現在離職了嘛對不對他九月離職之後又十一月就跑到總統府執政開的台中茂盛醫院板橋院去擔任這個生殖醫學的總監是吧報告委員目前衛福部查此人並沒有沒有指燈"},{"start":6968.473,"end":6990.045,"text":"所以表示他現在沒有在執行完全沒有嗎沒有那你覺得他是他未來還有機會當醫生嗎還有資格當嗎那就要送到由地方衛生局送懲戒委員會然後懲戒委員會的建議會如果比較重大會送到我們衛護部來做判決所以這個要經過醫生懲戒委員會來處理嘛對不對"},{"start":6993.748,"end":7011.918,"text":"是在地方還是怎麼樣先送到當地的衛生局根據醫師法第25條規定要判刑確定才有依據召開懲戒委員會的會議那如果委員會決議要廢止醫師證書誰可以決定要不要廢止是我們衛福部嗎"},{"start":7013.599,"end":7026.198,"text":"像這個比較重大這個比較重大必須要送到衛福部所以他們決定說應該要廢除的時候才送到這邊來那您這邊來決定他還要不要還是您會尊重地方開的這個建議"},{"start":7027.65,"end":7039.763,"text":"我們尊重這個沈議員沈議員可以說都是德高望重那老實講那個委員也是都是長久以來也不是我們能去隨便跟他修改的啦所以我想他們一定會根據過去的經驗法律他們從他們的倫理"},{"start":7045.528,"end":7070.015,"text":"一些倫理後面來做一個很周全的判定因為我們擔心的是什麼就是現在學校懲處的結果還沒有結果也要等判刑確定那這邊一定會有一個空窗期這個我們能確保這個西教授沒有萬一他在別的地方職業怎麼辦我們怎麼保障假如他職業的話我們怎麼保障患者跟其他醫護不被騷擾"},{"start":7073.666,"end":7099.456,"text":"我們也做追蹤還是怎麼樣?我想我們衛福部的立場是宣導一個性瓶性燒怎麼防治我要講這個我知道部長我知道那至於說那個我們如果他到哪個地方去職場我們會都請當地的衛生局"},{"start":7103.138,"end":7119.339,"text":"那去加強那個督導那我稍微分清楚一下因為他是他不是跟業務上去併人啦他是那個對啦我說有這樣的有發生這種案件我希望衛福部主動要追蹤啦好不好"},{"start":7120.24,"end":7141.227,"text":"當然當然另外我剛才講到這些就是說我發現我們舉個幾個例子來給你看就剛剛我們陳金輝委員有提到我們台大骨科我們的王姓主任110年這個也依照這個強制猥褻罪判刑8個月那部長您知道他現在在哪裡嗎我不清楚他現在在哪裡他還在台大骨科是吧"},{"start":7150.091,"end":7178.624,"text":"那個台大骨科對啊我就覺得這個很奇怪啊然後112年台大醫院鄭姓傅海全威教授那疑似下藥迷昏藥廠的女性業務員那當然啦後來這個我們的性騷擾防治委員會說性騷擾不成立不過這件事情在去年113年檢方4月又開始介入調查了部長知道這事情嗎"},{"start":7182.413,"end":7203.389,"text":"我知道有這件事情,然後呢?你說事業就又開始...對啊,它又介入調查了嘛,所以你們有針對這樣的事情去追蹤嗎?可能有新市政又檢方嘛,要檢方進入調查嘛對啊那我相信台大醫院應該都會密切注意到整個過程嘛還有我們新的..."},{"start":7232.307,"end":7234.068,"text":"所以他還在台大骨科嘛 對不對"},{"start":7248.622,"end":7264.566,"text":"還有我再講新竹也有我們基性小兒科心臟科醫師也替女童檢查心臟的時候涉嫌在兒童超音波室手持超音波探頭用手指抓取觸碰他的乳房"},{"start":7265.746,"end":7281.807,"text":"那被判刑七個月那現在還沒有看診我想講這些案子給你們大概參考一下還有一個就是精神科名醫我們恐反警涉嫌在我們診所內性侵女病患這件事情那當然他也被判了四年"},{"start":7282.828,"end":7312.069,"text":"我講的這些案子我剛剛還是回到我們陳金輝委員剛剛也有建議到說我們部長自己有提到說是不是要建置一個網路平台公布這些有這些塑形不良的醫生的一個訊息讓我們的患者還有我們的醫護人員能多一分警覺那這個東西當然也會讓所有的醫生有所顧忌因為這個東西一旦登上去之後對他本身來講也是影響非常大的"},{"start":7313.766,"end":7328.349,"text":"我覺得這個是一個手段不是我們的目的我們也是希望有透過這樣的手段讓我們這些醫師就是能夠自己去克制自己去約束自己"},{"start":7330.074,"end":7353.417,"text":"是我們在上一屆大家努力之下通過憲憑三法那當然就是希望營造一個大家很互相尊重不會有像發生這種事情不好的事情的一個環境部長可以承諾嗎?這個部分,您會做這件事嗎?我們一定會研議研議嘛,那這個要多久?"},{"start":7356.015,"end":7373.107,"text":"這個因為牽涉到整個體系的問題啦不是說我們衛福部還要公佈就公佈我知道啦那當然我希望快一點啦好不好好我們會把演繹的過程跟委員報告三個月可以嗎?沒問題我們演繹的狀況會跟三個月內跟委員報告"},{"start":7377.523,"end":7403.03,"text":"另外我們就台大西教授這個性騷的聲音我想在前年112年初就已經傳出來那一直到專科醫生考試完112年11月才敢檢舉而且我們西教授他是慣犯光這次報出來對象至少有6個那台大醫院你們是在11月接到檢舉嗎我們請院長來一下"},{"start":7413.892,"end":7436.283,"text":"這件事情台大醫院並沒有接到檢舉沒有檢舉 你們是固主席之的對 這是固主席之的而且剛才我們這個性平委員會的主任委員高副院長他其實是一收到馬上跟我報告因為有人用那個NINE傳給他這個時間點可能要再釐清一下 對"},{"start":7438.859,"end":7459.87,"text":"這個受害者本人是用醫院的這個TestMessage寫給我那我也跟他談話這個部分我剛剛也聽到了那我想問的就是說因為我們醫師的訓練是師徒那你要徒弟出來控這個控訴自己的師父這說真的一般人都是非常有壓力的"},{"start":7460.871,"end":7475.617,"text":"那我們有給這些醫生啊就是說受到侵害的這些醫生有沒有什麼保障還是我們已經很習慣在這裡面我們白色巨塔裡面常常會有這種事情發生"},{"start":7476.67,"end":7491.799,"text":"好 那我們的志願是有一個友善完全沒有性騷霸凌專業的學習訓練這絕對是我們一定要做的所以當然我受到這樣第一個我就是以老師的身分我非常的感到難過沒有保護他們這邊有個資料就是說"},{"start":7494.269,"end":7515.05,"text":"我們在2018年就有調查過有80%的女醫師63%的男醫師都曾經遭受過職場的性騷但是只有3.5%的人曾經使用申訴管道那我覺得我們的這個申訴管道是不是不被信任還是有做檢討的空間"},{"start":7515.967,"end":7533.623,"text":"好這個申訴管道我們在人事室那我們也在醫院持續的宣傳然後在教學部呢在每個階段不管他們在實習PGY住院醫師都有持續的宣傳重點是現在要使用這個人他會不會覺得他有壓力你們是不是能夠保密"},{"start":7535.665,"end":7560.435,"text":"臺大在保密這部分是覺得可以放心所以像這次事件他們願意接受訪談可是他不願申訴他就有這些擔心雖然我們有給他很多的安全的這個保證但是我們還是用固執的方式那我再重點就是說這些受害者他們並不希望被人家知道所以我們不管媒體或各方面去描述這些其實都是對他們二次傷害"},{"start":7562.956,"end":7590.369,"text":"我在講我們西教授性騷的案件5月底的調查結果就出來是性騷那你們醫院的調查報告去識別化後公布有問題嗎這個報告沒有辦法公布為什麼這個本來就是有隱私再怎麼樣去識別化還是會對號入座而且這也是對受害者的一個傷害受害者是受害是被害人受害者"},{"start":7591.489,"end":7596.933,"text":"受害那其實我剛才要再補充一下 其實5月2號我們會議這個結束之後 實際上就有"},{"start":7601.434,"end":7629.669,"text":"要將加害跟受害者要怎麼執行保護這個當天在報告還沒有全部出來就已經有跟他的直屬現任的主任談所以這個我們的主任是楊主任嘛對吧對就是很早我們就做這些處理我看他發的聲明他說僅私下詢問是否有上有其他的人證或物證可以證明那絕無向被害人表示孤男寡女共處一室要怎麼證明"},{"start":7630.709,"end":7643.815,"text":"所以我在講這兩句話的意思有哪裡不一樣嗎這個我們不予評論因為那是他個人的聲明並不是由醫院做任何的聲明醫院不負責任就對了這個是他個人的聲明不經過我們醫院所以他們隨便講都可以因為針對這種事情無法回答你無法回答那你想來幹嘛"},{"start":7660.047,"end":7660.975,"text":"你上來幹嘛"},{"start":7664.044,"end":7690.736,"text":"楊主任的那個個人的聲明是在我們見到媒體以後我們院方特別我也有把楊主任講來就為一個行政主管你是不及格的這個是不及格因為我們千方百計用盡各種方法就是要保護受害人我們整個調查的過程我們最第一要務就是保護受害人不要受到二次傷害"},{"start":7691.556,"end":7703.056,"text":"因為那個加害者那時候還沒有離開那我再問我們這個西教授現在已經離開他也記兩大過那我想請問一下這兩大過對他有什麼影響"},{"start":7705.086,"end":7729.993,"text":"在其實對醫院來講沒有問題他已經離職而且沒有但是因為他有一個教師的身份他可能假如是被學校解聘跟自動離職辭職這個對他的退休金是會有所影響但是這部分就不是醫院可以跟醫院他就是已經切掉了醫院他已經沒有任何的工作甚至他的工作證跟什麼卡我們都收回了"},{"start":7730.273,"end":7755.832,"text":"好啦那我在最後補充我們結論就是我們我發現這個事情也不是單一案件也是發生好幾次的我覺得我們第一線的主管應該要更有作為一點那這整個的這個流程這整個的配套大家需要檢討一下大家改進好不好謝謝那再來我再請問我先補充一下其實高副院長是台灣理醫師協會的理事長"},{"start":7758.294,"end":7774.804,"text":"所以他保護女醫師應該是非常的用心的只是說他還是要按依法行事好謝謝那個部長這個前兩天我接到我們罹患帕金森市政的病友陳情"},{"start":7776.465,"end":7797.607,"text":"那他們一直以來無法比照重大傷病享有各項健保的醫療補助那部長我想請問有關帕金森市政的相關社會資源以及相關的福利補助部落都落在這個帕金森市政的中後期也就是說在離病之後的10年左右"},{"start":7798.581,"end":7803.591,"text":"但他們在前期就無法工作面臨龐大的這個醫療這個相關的醫療的支出你覺得這個東西有沒有減腦的空間"},{"start":7809.835,"end":7828.177,"text":"任何一個疾病,病人需要照顧而我們沒有給他適當的照顧,或者是他們滿意的照顧當然都是我們要去努力的方向跟目標我們帕金森症相關的社會資源"},{"start":7830.043,"end":7834.147,"text":"我認為社會安全網、社會體系及健保補助不應該忽略他們邱部長可以承諾協助他們來解決這樣的一個問題就是納入考量"},{"start":7851.314,"end":7878.62,"text":"我想如果在健保方面不曉得有沒有給這個部分怎麼樣的那如果不夠的話我們再用社會福利來一起來努力那個副署長帕金森市政我們會邀請專業的學協會那特別包含的像神經醫學會還有這個失智症協會還有精神醫學會我們邀請他們來擬定這樣子的提案好謝謝邱部長那我看洪部長坐很久應該很無聊我最後一句問你一下"},{"start":7879.84,"end":7907.156,"text":"你這個彈性工時的設計再加工作或同樣的案子就是職業重建等等我們勞動部的勞發署是不是也可以協助一起來解決這個問題說職業重建的哪個部分就是我們剛剛講帕金森市政的患者就是因為他早在前期他就很多人可能會因為這樣都沒有工作那這部分我們勞動部這個勞發署是不是可以協助"},{"start":7908.334,"end":7933.469,"text":"這個部分因為重建比較是指的是植栽施能的部分對跟委員報告我們目前對於如果他在工作上有需要植物再設計的部分我們是可以提供相關的協助那我們會到時候我們希望你們兩個部會大家再再聯繫一下嘛好不好好謝謝謝謝就委員謝謝部長"},{"start":7939.737,"end":7945.72,"text":"我們臨時提案處理完畢後再休息10分鐘那接續我們請王一鳴委員質詢好謝謝主席那個部長輪流一下我們先請勞動部紅部長"},{"start":7967.005,"end":7968.863,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7969.793,"end":7981.82,"text":"部長我先請問你那個救安基金的審計部的報告你自己有沒有看過有是不是我要先跟你討論這個救安基金的問題審計部已經證實了這個5174萬救安基金的編列是使用不當的而這當中我們可以看到光是媒體宣導的費用就高達3784萬佔整體的七成三"},{"start":7998.429,"end":8013.2,"text":"也就是勞動部把你們的沒宣費用除了你公務預算有編列一部分之外多數你通通都用救安基金來使用而這個審計部直指你們"},{"start":8014.381,"end":8026.147,"text":"是使用不當這當中我上次質詢的時候我就問許民村的演唱會他的經費從哪裡來是從你們媒體的這個預算裡面來的然後你們當時還告訴我說這個是開口合約沒有問題審計部的報告就告訴你你們名目都不符很有問題違法使用部長這個部分你們要怎麼去改進"},{"start":8044.395,"end":8058.377,"text":"跟網友報告其實這裡面審計部報告我們都讀過了那這裡面有分幾個部分的層次你有沒有覺得你們開口合約有問題你們的預算編列不夠精確先跟網友報告"},{"start":8059.74,"end":8076.283,"text":"審議部裡面確實有提到開口合約的問題那這部分關於履約的管理那也包括其實有一些後續的集合的部分目前我們已經請同仁來進行相關的檢討那我們也不排除未來當然要調整做法"},{"start":8077.541,"end":8089.952,"text":"我就告訴大家這個勞動部花錢完全如流水不手軟他們製作一部影片勞動節主題影片你知道這三年來他們花了2800萬"},{"start":8092.734,"end":8111.345,"text":"平均一支影片的造價的金額是一千萬到八百萬之間平均是九百萬那個衛福部邱太仁部長我麻煩你上來一下我要問一下衛福部請問你們在媒體宣導的預算裡面你們做一支影片花多少錢衛福部的預算編列"},{"start":8117.961,"end":8134.537,"text":"你們下面的司長趕快去救駕你們自己都有編列預算保護司你們平均做一支影片要花多少錢人家勞動部是一千萬到八百萬的規格請問你勞動部做多少錢看第一個秒數第二個用什麼方式你曾經最貴的多少錢嗎"},{"start":8136.298,"end":8156.608,"text":"90萬左右也是有的啦都不到100萬對不對我自己知道的情況大概也是這樣子是這種規格好兩位請回去紅部長我就是要讓你看到勞動部有這樣的一個就業基金的小金庫你們的媒體預算遠高於其他部會一支影片竟然耗資1000萬到800萬是怎麼做的"},{"start":8161.373,"end":8171.986,"text":"你這段我沒有去查你上任之後你是不是要這樣的情況那你明年是不是繼續這樣子編跟網友說明我們其實在檢討我剛才說審計部的報告裡面其實裡面提到好幾個層次的指證"},{"start":8175.271,"end":8200.418,"text":"這個要不要檢討 你回答就好當然 這當然要檢討所以明年不會出現這種八百萬等級的影片勞動部不會出現了我覺得還是要看它這個採購的規格是否合宜我們現在在講這個問題是關於採購的規格的合宜度的狀況那我們確實有看到 過去的部會裡面不是要拍電影 你也不是文化部一個勞動部拍片要耗資一千萬"},{"start":8201.761,"end":8225.733,"text":"是拍什麼啊?拍小電影啊?所以那個跟萬元說明我們其實也有在檢討說有一些可能他可能是需要有需要的工作但凱德的規格是不是有合一另外一個好我時間有限部長我們進行下一個另外一個是你們的整個基金管理一團糟你們現在自己設定了一個門檻五千萬以上的計畫"},{"start":8227.074,"end":8250.254,"text":"才要去查核查核的比例佔你總基金的預算只有兩成多這是審計部的報告直指你們的整個管控的覆蓋率太少了完全不足這麼少的一個覆蓋率多數都是你勞動部說了算包括我前面指出來的你這一些製作影片的錢"},{"start":8251.235,"end":8272.047,"text":"加起來每一年沒有超過五千萬所以根本不用送這一個審核所以只要部長拍板就可以這其實並不是只要送審核啦簡單來說審議部這報告是指其實我們還有在另外設一個內控的機制你們內控機制也沒有發揮功能啊所以你是雙重的"},{"start":8274.429,"end":8293.85,"text":"雙重的不足嘛第一個你設了一個高門檻審計部報告直指你這個五千萬其實是不合理的嘛我們審理的公務預算一百萬幾十萬在立法院裡面每一筆委員直指細細的審結果到了你的救安基金五千萬以下的通通不用審啊"},{"start":8294.571,"end":8314.221,"text":"跟委員說明並不是五千萬你有送委員會審嗎跟委員說明沒有啊這個指的其實也不是委員會這個指的是我們在另外設了一個內控的機制我知道再去做事前事後的把關所以我們現在會接下來會要來提出了強化把關的機制裡面"},{"start":8314.941,"end":8343.4,"text":"也會針對事前的審查的強化甚至事後的集合來做強化的把關這事情也在我們強化把關機制的方案裡面好你這個問題真的很大難怪這個弊端重生那所以我在這邊就具體的訴求拒絕勞動部的小金庫現在就要修正救安基金管理機制而部長你答應大家你當時允諾是一個月之後你會提其實時間差不多了"},{"start":8345.782,"end":8358.873,"text":"我們一定會在一個月內提出就是一月到了餒對我們一定會在一個月內一定會提出什麼時候你告訴大家我先告訴你我的訴求我不知道你的改革內容有沒有比照這個第一個"},{"start":8360.254,"end":8364.635,"text":"你的媒體宣傳費用大家剛剛已經聽到了勞動部跟衛福部天差地遠所以沒宣費用如果編到公務預算立法院逐筆審查就不會有你們這樣子浮邊爛邊的一個情況未來你的沒宣費是不是應該回歸公務預算來編列"},{"start":8378.96,"end":8398.892,"text":"跟委員說明確實勞動部過去長期以來我們確實存在著我們其實有很多的經費的使用我覺得是過度依賴救安基金的狀況那這部分我覺得我們也會來跟行政院跟主計來爭取應該該回到供應供預算的部分這部分我們會來跟行政院來爭取這件事情"},{"start":8403.695,"end":8420.996,"text":"另外一個你們自己自設的五千萬以上計劃你的那個審核的門檻要不要下修跟文說明並不是五千萬才需要審核好像五千萬以下怎樣做都可以不是我們會在這個相關的計劃的用途上面做出更明確的把關"},{"start":8423.539,"end":8439.815,"text":"我們幾個強化機制上面幾個大的方向第一個用途上面會做出明確的把關跟範定再來是一個在管理跟審查的機制要強化這裡面可能包括事前跟事後再來一個事情是關於資訊的部分"},{"start":8440.416,"end":8457.035,"text":"那我說這幾個案我剛剛看了委員其實提到的部分我覺得我們當然可以來考慮就是說我們因為我們現在是設了一個內控的機制是不是一定是只能五千萬有沒有可能下修這部分我們是可以我們可以但並不是五千萬以下完全不用審查並不是這個意思"},{"start":8457.415,"end":8477.178,"text":"所以我要求你們每一項計畫 其實是使用救安基金 你的預算要想使編列 審計單位才可以監管這都是我們接下來希望的方向 如果是公開透明 你們就應該要做到這樣當然 這都是我們希望的方向好 我要求立刻修正 那你什麼時候 你要告訴大家你這個審核機制 什麼時候要公布一個月真的快到了 部長其實應該就這個禮拜 是"},{"start":8479.002,"end":8503.658,"text":"就是這禮拜 禮拜五前公佈應該就是這禮拜好 禮拜五前公佈對好那另外一個我要問的是麥當勞打工少女輕生事件是這個事件其實凸顯最嚴重的是我們未成年人他打工的時候他可能對於自己的保護力是不足所以就更需要政府的機制來強化我們來保障他但是這個個案我們看了真的非常遺憾他是在麥當勞這麼大的一個"},{"start":8505.92,"end":8518.476,"text":"企業體系裡面還發生他從性騷到被性侵這當中沒有得到一個適當的政府的力量的介入跟幫忙那我要問部長的是其實現在16到18歲打工的情況還是是有的"},{"start":8522.26,"end":8536.23,"text":"那怎麼樣去確保這些未成年人16到18歲他們在職場是安全的你在今年的勞檢專案裡面你會不會針對這些未成年人他的職場安全你們有一個專案的勞檢計畫會不會去推動"},{"start":8538.571,"end":8560.139,"text":"跟委員說明我們其實已經在規劃114年的專案勞檢裡面我們會擴大尤其是針對這個職場的性騷擾他的防治尤其是要提供可能假設被害人他一些心理諮商等等等事後這次也就是這次麥當勞沒有做到的事情我們會把它列為我們在114年的專案勞檢擴大專案勞檢裡面的重點項目"},{"start":8563.5,"end":8574.032,"text":"對 我要求的是特別針對他有僱用16到18歲的這個企業場域當然 甚至我們都還希望未來在這個年輕人上面的勞動教育都必須要再加強因為你讓他們有相關的勞動意識相關的權利意識我覺得這也是非常重要的事情"},{"start":8581.4,"end":8598.971,"text":"好 因為我覺得這個職場安全企業負起這個責任其實是蠻重要特別針對未成年人的保護我希望勞動部 這個洪部長你一直也很關心弱勢這些未成年人我希望你可以再發更多的支持當然 我也打工過好 謝謝謝謝王委員 謝謝部長接下來請蘇清泉質詢"},{"start":8616.647,"end":8626.338,"text":"好我們請蘇委員謝謝主席我請邱部長還有我們健保署的陳副署長好請邱部長還有健保署"},{"start":8634.31,"end":8654.389,"text":"我現在問你兩個問題等一下再問台大院長我現在診所越開越大前幾天又看到嚇死人的診所這麼大間然後把醫院的醫生都吸光光那為什麼診所會越開越大這是我們稅制的問題"},{"start":8655.865,"end":8675.278,"text":"你看在便宜,在台大醫院,在中大型醫院裡面的醫生他每一筆錢都是要繳鎖的稅他到診所去掛個虛名的共同負責人然後他的稅,在診所做幾天這樣賺多少錢沒人知道結果他繳的稅都繳五萬、十萬、十五萬那在便宜大,都要繳七八十萬、八萬的"},{"start":8684.706,"end":8698.558,"text":"所以這個是把醫院,我那一天長庚醫院的急診部主任被找去開業在平生東路,我常常在路上看,在外面吃飯,在做醫美這是很糟糕的事情,這是整個國家的損失"},{"start":8709.116,"end":8720.051,"text":"這個健保局昨天有講說超過一億的要給他要評鑑要什麼的診所的那個評鑑設施標準那個跟醫院差"},{"start":8724.299,"end":8750.17,"text":"這個你要不要處理 健保署要不要處理這個再這樣他要搞個洗腎 要搞個醫美 要搞個什麼的話一年做個一億 兩億 三億都超過 比地區醫院還大我現在想要來 我今天有提案喔是不是在美醫 會重症的醫師外科的還是什麼的他的醫師扣除喔"},{"start":8751.849,"end":8761.676,"text":"所得稅扣除,我們來調查一下查友會那邊我已經找要提案了那你的看法是怎麼樣好,第一個其實"},{"start":8763.496,"end":8789.924,"text":"我在八九年前就在財政委員會當立法委員的時候就提出幫醫院的一個累積一些相關的開銷尤其是醫師醫事人員能夠扣稅啦但是在財政委員會是沒有通過啦我想後來大家也一直在關心這件事情那集中症的醫院第一個他的"},{"start":8791.3,"end":8813.85,"text":"真的各個醫院為了要撐這個集中這個責任醫院真的花了很多的成本也必須要怎麼樣去留住他更多的力度這才能夠維繫我們在醫療體系很重要的一環所以我完全贊成蘇昭偉的一個建議我們看怎麼樣來溝通這可能在財委會那邊要"},{"start":8818.598,"end":8840.356,"text":"我知道就是因為這個我以前都提過案所以我知道這個要做很多的溝通診所你叫他要死保死消診所因為78%這個必要費用那剩下22%要繳稅要扣掉他的薪資怪不得要繳三萬五萬、三萬"},{"start":8843.834,"end":8857.982,"text":"我一天去中部某大型醫學中心,我去那裡看,我還在做專業會我去急診室看,那急診室的醫生,是給我叫,說知道我是在衛科檢驗室長他說,哇,副教授,學理科的副教授,現在坐在這裡看急診,那時候要10點,晚上啊兩個年輕夫婦帶孩子來,看得不舒服,還在叫"},{"start":8871.798,"end":8899.011,"text":"他說我做到補考的時候就是要用腳我阿姓現在都早上在開業都他的菜市場靠得到他的郵局討錢車站討錢現在九點多他們在喝紅酒看了在喝紅酒他說這什麼體統所以我早上我趕緊把他們的小學科的急診的調點調很多 調五十幾%但是還是不夠所以健保署對於這個不能"},{"start":8901.064,"end":8929.114,"text":"市長 欸 署長 副署長你要怎麼處理啊 要怎樣 要怎樣 這一定要處理 不然醫生跑掉了這是這樣啦 其實我們現在分區的管理 現在醫事公會全聯會也提一個案那11基層總額 他就提到到某一個 他收入到某一個勘詐的心 就要責負啦"},{"start":8932.469,"end":8956.097,"text":"這個目前當然應該還是在討論當中啦討論當中那至於說我們過去就有在實施中,你不要疑心一直去那個大便開的那個精塑一直走著走著去現在過去就有慣例啦,那個數額比較高,譬如說超過十萬塊就會特別的一個那個"},{"start":8957.426,"end":8985.616,"text":"就會把他責負啦也是一直在想辦法但是我還是要跟趙薇報告一下齁其實不是所有的診所都是明星診所啦齁你如果去走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走"},{"start":8987.012,"end":9008.481,"text":"他比較不會說話不要說說話 怕犯罪的互動很多醫生都要轉眼而已沒有啦就是所以如果是診所我們也要照顧這個我贊成那比較所以這個要整體的考驗不是像我舉個例子台北市的診所有"},{"start":9009.737,"end":9037.471,"text":"台北市裡面要租金幾啦請人幾啦所以你看一天如果沒有看到30個意思是沒薪水的但是有超過30個的不到50%大型然後像前幾天有一個開幕的吹牛吹牛說他一年要搞幾億幾億這個要加強管理好不好當然當然那另外一個我要一個提案就是麻醉的事情"},{"start":9038.735,"end":9068.135,"text":"那個七百多家醫美診所只有四十家接受評鑑然後其他的麻醉就出問題啦那麻醉醫學會我也不看他們就三百萬麻醉醫學會好像說他們很重要他們沒人他們就學生才這麼少每年的專科醫師限定名額大家保障既得利益者眼科也是一樣麻醉科也是一樣然後在外面沒人所以我今天提案有一個"},{"start":9070.176,"end":9090.692,"text":"心臟外科的醫師,移植外科的醫師,或者重症的醫師等等你給他訓練麻醉,讓他接受一個程度讓他去執行也是相關的麻醉,那你要很高檔的就不要做那這樣的話也可以紓解這些麻醉"},{"start":9092.012,"end":9115.6,"text":"量能不夠不然我看那邊麻醉醫學院沒有補啊繼續在出問題你當理事長我當理事長我們這樣看得下去喔台大院長你這樣看得下去嗎對不對欸 那要Cue你了我跟你講不然這樣要怎麼改革我再說這個案子是可以研議的吧我想 市委市召委過去一直在醫界當領袖也一直在"},{"start":9116.741,"end":9141.633,"text":"那個推動這個品質安全我們已經發表很久了嘛所以品質安全絕對是變成品質安全絕對是我們藝界努力的目標啦啊現在就是人數的shift變成你到時候大便的時候沒辦法起床因為麻醉的問題嘛所以這也要麻醉藝學院各個專科藝學院都有他的立場啊"},{"start":9142.788,"end":9154.975,"text":"所以這個可能真的要做下來研議啦不管是從醫院的解決或者是從診所方面他們的現在來大醫院麻醉醫師都缺啦麻醉科醫師說全部都要麻醉科醫師"},{"start":9158.837,"end":9170.905,"text":"你看那些人他們沒有人他們根本就擺爛了總是不能讓那個沒有他們也是得頭很優秀啦也很堅持我說他們醫學要處理這一塊是擺爛啦我不是說他們醫師哪有這個部分真的要大家站在站在團隊立場共同解決全國醫界的"},{"start":9178.97,"end":9200.615,"text":"人民的健康 醫界的問題 大家齁講實話啦 醫生要在醫生訓練到PY2其實都已經很堅強很強了啦他只要再接受一些訓練的話 其實他可以做更多對對 福和社區民眾需求的治療這個馬上研議啦齁來啊 請台大副院長副院長主席給我一分鐘啦好 沒問題"},{"start":9209.966,"end":9233.592,"text":"院長,你的副院長是女醫師協會的理事長嘛,副職人嘛。那我說你是台大院長龍頭,台灣最高的,跟龍總是兩個在既競爭又聯合。我要跟你說,我把你趕走啦,你有話要說的不要說太快,不要講太快,不要衝第一線,這樣很危險啦。"},{"start":9234.437,"end":9254.17,"text":"像上次,今年7月在改那個法律的時候,健保法我是推1.1塊錢,有在簽1.0.95,王一鳴那我後來我也撤了,就是說用主決議來協商,感謝邱副長這陣子拚到這時你去回天堂"},{"start":9258.375,"end":9266.641,"text":"你給我講說1.1塊錢會有道德瑕疵我還真是吞不下去你說的三藝四蛤沒有"},{"start":9269.026,"end":9297.187,"text":"謝謝委員蘇委那我首先要謝謝蘇委員替我們一介包括剛才那兩個案子我們都贊成而且集中南韓的醫師在不夠已經是現在進行是不是未來式那假如我們沒有更好的作為那第二個是我是擔心健保會破產不是不是因為因為大家也知道我們為了保久已經一年要補那麼多假如是一點一塊我怕我們這整個"},{"start":9298.427,"end":9326.295,"text":"國家所以那時候我跟陳為民院長其實是在台大榮總在開會的時候有記者來問我我不是說這個會這個會讓我因為現在其實大家知道健保是總額制嘛總額制假如我們訂了1.1塊的話就等於把總額制取消那這個確實會有很大的管理危機啦1.1塊錢會有道德消失我當然支持1.0.95就不會有道德消失嗎你覺得在睡嗎"},{"start":9328.416,"end":9341.931,"text":"講這個聽不下去所以不要說太快你這樣把我們打進去我們大家都灰頭苦臉健保組織不會倒健保要怎麼可能會倒啦老保要怎麼倒啦單身便衣會倒 醫生會倒台台你再說0.9就可以了"},{"start":9345.083,"end":9369.191,"text":"這毛鼠你醫藥代替都給他定點酒就好了因為他有很多公務預算所以怎麼補都補得起來邱部長 意思是不是這樣台大給他定點酒 醫藥都給他定點酒fix 固定點子給他沒有 台大沒有那麼多公務預算還是要還是要自相自滅現在台大的無面小現場頭髮越掉越多為什麼因為現在很多地方"},{"start":9370.291,"end":9394.551,"text":"都要臺大去幫忙 說你請婚禮嗎 這麼多人 這麼多人買就買其實那些如果沒有一點盈餘來做怎麼去增加教學費用 怎麼去增加病人的需求怎麼去協助偏鄉地區的一些工作所以我想給他足夠的一個點數真的很感謝 這是必要的"},{"start":9395.891,"end":9419.919,"text":"不用特別對台大那個啦不用特別跟他照顧不用特別跟他照顧 普通照顧就好沒有啦 我要說的意思是每件事都很辛苦啦醫療有點節育他才有能力去改善品質 增加設備 增加方式那儀器都這麼貴這本來就要放策略性的一點盈餘嘛不然的話怎麼搞得下去每一個人都臨臨 大家都這樣"},{"start":9421.94,"end":9441.952,"text":"北北安安安要有點風吹草動就受不了了因為立法院要編特別預算了對不對所以給各個議院有一點盈餘一點點這個活水才有辦法做嘛包委員我想不管是哪一個黨派黨啦齁或者是政府都希望"},{"start":9442.955,"end":9462.6,"text":"健保能夠永續都希望用最低的保惠能夠照顧最多的所以這個其實過去幾十年來在醫療體系的改革工作環境的改善大家都一起在努力那在健保總和這個制度之下大家有不同的見解我也希望召委了解到不同的見解但是就了解了所以對於總和的評論"},{"start":9466.743,"end":9476.702,"text":"有各種不同的見解 那我想我們都榮喜但是就是最重要大家心都一致的希望人民得到最充分的健康照顧最後問吳院長"},{"start":9478.686,"end":9496.545,"text":"你這件事 富山哥這件事 什麼很多事情你到底是多大的壓力 什麼資政局就給你施壓 給你關收 關心 關切我們立法院沒有在關收 我們都只是關心跟關切而已我們從來不關收 你是到底 你承受多大的壓力謝謝 謝謝 其實"},{"start":9499.008,"end":9522.547,"text":"真的謝謝今天有這個會讓我一次把話講清楚其實這個都是我們獨立獨立調查而且獨立送懲戒獨立在整個調查的過程當中我個人沒有接過任何一通電話那我也今天特別請我們調查委員會的主任委員也是我們性評會的主任委員也是我們女醫師全國的高淑溫教授"},{"start":9522.867,"end":9536.092,"text":"我有問他說有沒有人打電話甚至任何包括打電話寫email或寫什麼沒有我再一次的重申沒有壓力而且我們也是做了應該是說"},{"start":9537.864,"end":9558.242,"text":"以我們的行政效率的話是完全沒有去去去耽擱這點謝謝蘇委員還有今天有好幾位委員都提到這件事情那我趁這個機會在此澄清好謝謝好謝謝接下來我們處理臨時提案"},{"start":9567.197,"end":9580.367,"text":"來 我們現在處理臨時提案總共有五個案子啦好 請宣讀"},{"start":9586.26,"end":9609.966,"text":"第一案要求衛福部研議辦理心臟外科移植外科重症等醫師接受麻醉科一定期間的專業訓練之後可以執行麻醉業務以彌補專業人力的不足降低重症患者的麻醉生命風險提案人委員蘇清泉陳昭芝圖全集第二案要求衛福部提出改善方法如在醫院的重症醫師所得稅"},{"start":9611.366,"end":9632.04,"text":"列有重症医师特别扣除额或者诊所也要时报时销不然重症医师前往诊所职业的趋势会越来越严重而大医院将会面临缺乏重症医师的情况对于重症病患赴大医院就医之权利将会大受威胁提案人委员苏清泉陈昭之图全集第三案"},{"start":9633.106,"end":9653.874,"text":"要求衛福部應比照勞動部之做法公開調查報告含調查小組成員名單讓社會檢視並檢討此次調查缺失以更適當之方法重啟調查並於調查期間將有權處理機密文件之涉案人員調離現職提案人委員陳昭芝 陳金輝 邱振鈞"},{"start":9655.626,"end":9671.025,"text":"第四案特決議為服務部應限期於二個月內啟動並完成醫師性騷擾行為揭露平台建置作業事後並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝 蘇清泉 陳昭芝"},{"start":9673.107,"end":9685.935,"text":"第五案有鑑於目前已有遺傳性及罕見疾病指定檢驗機構臨床細胞遺傳學檢驗類職業醫師人員荒的問題特決議衛福部及所屬國民健康署應限期於二個月內完成該類國內人力提振之改善措施並就新增報告簽署人資格審查委員會辦理審查作業經進級檢討事後並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告"},{"start":9702.965,"end":9706.329,"text":"提案人委員陳金輝、蘇清泉、邱振軍宣讀完畢"},{"start":9726.84,"end":9755.61,"text":"跟委員報告就是剛剛部長在諮詢台語經常講我們研議就是在那個原提案要求衛福部加兩個字研議然後辦理心臟外科、椅子外科好好以下都是同樣那請問委員有沒有意見沒有沒有那通過即期啦即期齁好感謝建國啦衛福部要即期辦理啦即期處理來第二案行政委員有沒有意見"},{"start":9758.649,"end":9780.683,"text":"那個第二案剛剛那個部長也在資訊台講說就是原提案要求維護部與財政部研擬改善方法就修正加那個維護部與財政部研擬改善方法把那個提出刪除掉兩個字刪掉好就改這裡啦好可以"},{"start":9781.523,"end":9790.345,"text":"我覺得這個提案是對重症醫師來講有很大的幫助所以可以讓這些重症醫師喜歡也願意留在大型的醫療機構從事他的重症醫療的工作"},{"start":9803.688,"end":9823.633,"text":"不過現在反而就是說那個重症在定義上有沒有未來在處理上的一些困難度另外就是說其實所有的醫師在大型醫療機構的付出裡面都有他一定的角色那我們現在是為了要減少這個不管是院前診所或者是診所來"},{"start":9826.094,"end":9849.935,"text":"針對這個重症醫師提供適當的協助事實上我們也了解急重難寒的醫師都有相關的問題一種來說是因為去受到這個診所的影響而離開的話那麼對大型醫院來講都非常辛苦而且對於民眾的健康維護事實上是有它相關的困擾所以請大家看我剛才做的討論"},{"start":9850.936,"end":9872.177,"text":"那其實也有人說除了醫師以外那護理師如果他還是在照顧重症男孩的話那個保障足不足夠這個也都有提過所以柏文可能在這個臨體裡面也要在如果只是單純針對重症醫師做這個扣除的話似乎還可以有再調整的空間以上"},{"start":9874.645,"end":9893.304,"text":"那個護理人員的要到比較高的稅率是比較少啦,所以這點才是倒是重症這邊要如何界定,這個請部長、衛部要去想想看另外,或者遵守也要時報時報,這個有需要寫在這裡嗎?"},{"start":9897.223,"end":9902.69,"text":"我們現在就要高責負,因為這樣會怕對金手,他會覺得有壓力,這個可能看那個...那一句話要發掉嗎?"},{"start":9915.044,"end":9940.236,"text":"我們就加強重症比較重要或者是你高要大型的診所要能夠有適當的管制什麼因為診所一半以上還是很弱勢不然就改成或者大型診所也要18、19因為他的收入比醫院還高啦大型診所這樣可以嗎"},{"start":9946.127,"end":9971.822,"text":"或者大型診所也要時報時報因為我們這裡是尊重提案委員就提中正醫師那有沒有需要說在另外你也可以另外再提或者是這一次要在裡面一起考量進去是不是請委員裁解一下這樣"},{"start":9974.586,"end":10000.814,"text":"王委員 王主席不然你要改做集中南韓還是怎樣因為剛才你託人選集中南韓是一個大方向嘛其實我們也知道兒科也是做需要幫忙的部分啦所以真的就會越拉越需要看這個衛福部這邊有沒有整體的考量謝謝我知道這是靈體"},{"start":10004.457,"end":10020.022,"text":"沒有,少多少少就好了,集中南韓,駐俄科現在俄科裡面有一些投入在韓並的其實也很辛苦,那些也很辛苦"},{"start":10023.639,"end":10044.258,"text":"醫院裡面的兒科醫師的確也很辛苦不管哪一科啦因為你看那不是副教授在值班啦連教授都在值班啦小兒科日本的大連大連台北慈濟的副醫生那都高修啊那都要回到第一班"},{"start":10048.913,"end":10053.038,"text":"極重難函俄科的一般科,感染科也是很辛苦"},{"start":10065.211,"end":10093.01,"text":"你認得集中南韓計額科醫師所得稅好,就給他加上去這是NE嘛,不然我們的NE的主要是要去跟政府研究啊要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究啊 要去跟政府研究"},{"start":10094.651,"end":10117.238,"text":"這真的會罷工的,很感動那要再等嗎?其中哪一行?巨額科重症的地方都改?巨額科等,這額科專家巨額科等市長你有意見嗎?"},{"start":10136.249,"end":10138.892,"text":"就改這樣啦,來第三案第三案那個處長"},{"start":10142.838,"end":10162.176,"text":"我是衛福部人事處這邊就是提案委員是希望我們可以公開調查報告那這邊請做一個說明就是上次在我們將案報告的時候就是委員希望我們去了那個識別化之後將調查報告"},{"start":10164.478,"end":10181.428,"text":"給衛環委員會報告逐一說明親子報告那幾位委員聽到我的報告因為15位委員中間我已經跑了13位那現場也有好幾位委員都有聽過我的報告應該是我在報告的時候不是只有"},{"start":10182.088,"end":10204.927,"text":"只有針對我們整個報告的結果我們連我們的作業方式還有我們的訪談同仁的相關的運作方式還有一些那個對話都有跟委員做一個報告這確實是一個比較屬於內部管理而且也是比較屬於是同仁之間他比較容易"},{"start":10205.607,"end":10220.664,"text":"被如果公開出來很容易很容易去找到是誰去敘述這一段的相關過程所以我們是比較所以我們遵照上次委員會的決議這樣逐一說明之後"},{"start":10221.284,"end":10246.816,"text":"在過程中也非常謝謝很多委員都給我們建議說以後日後的一些相關的經濟建議的那個措施所以我們希望說後面的這一段是不是可以再給衛福部的一個機會就是後面那一整段就把它文字調整成原提案要求衛福部"},{"start":10248.096,"end":10259.65,"text":"因檢討此次調查缺失並於兩個月將檢討報告送衛環委員會以上文字建議 謝謝"},{"start":10262.962,"end":10290.617,"text":"我今天早上質詢的時候已經有把你整個調查的這個品質以祖密為例140份當中有47份說他有歇斯底里咆哮等等有52份說他有言語肢體心理暴力的行為但是你最後用15位來定論他是未罷准那個第四條那個未就是已經跟主席報告過就是那個字是沒有未罷凌就以這個為例你這個方法學有很多問題我今天早上報告你大概都在"},{"start":10291.457,"end":10308.947,"text":"然後就說有多然後百分之八十一點四人他不願意接受訪談你們沒有辦法去處理然後也講不出你最後訪談了十幾個人以一個人為例以觀光署名為例一百四十個人你訪談了十七個人那十五個人的結論都幫他講話那兩個人講的那些話你們都當作耳邊風他事實上你整個取樣也都是不對的所以我現在只是要求你們比照勞動部勞動部有把這個調查報告公告我沒有要叫你我今天已經示範給你看了"},{"start":10320.894,"end":10347.164,"text":"我今天在質詢內容完全沒有涉及誰是被約談的所以比照都不調查上網然後這個調查報告調查小組成名單因為我現在你說有外部到現在我覺得都沒有看到然後要用更適當的方法因為我已經指出你的缺點了你是取樣很偏頗第二次我叫你重啟調查那你檢查缺失你剛剛說你只要檢查缺失剛剛根本沒有人承認他有缺失怎麼檢討缺失"},{"start":10348.484,"end":10357.465,"text":"他根本沒有買單我的說法但是我又那麼具體你可以去查再去查一次再來就是說涉案人員本身那個職位他本身有機密文件的管理權"},{"start":10358.971,"end":10380.162,"text":"我這個質疑百分百合理啊他必須先離開這個縣執啊他人家才能去做處理啊那將來他怎麼又回到假設假設又回到縣執他怎麼避開看當初是誰說了他霸凌這個東西你不處理整個衛福部以後的工作時期以後的真相都沒有是讓衛福部好好能夠工作欸所以我這三點我看不出有什麼問題啊部長 不對我講的都有問題比早有勞動部啊"},{"start":10387.23,"end":10410.202,"text":"公開調查包圍你要怎麼遭都隨便你啊然後重啟調查阿都布當時也是重啟調查我已經告訴你缺失那麼多光光你給我看的資料的結論就不是你該有的結論嘛我一直說我只說一百八十幾個人然後也寫出百分之三十三跟三十七人說他有霸凌那你當作沒有喔"},{"start":10416.38,"end":10431.877,"text":"不好意思我針對委員的那個三點我只要再簡單說明第一個調閱權的部分在公務員的部分絕對有迴避的那個問題不只是職權迴避而且有利益迴避"},{"start":10432.578,"end":10455.87,"text":"所以所有的調查報告重視他今天在哪個的重視我今天人事處我今天我如果人事處的案子被政風處那個調查我人事處長也是不能去跟政風處調所有的報告這個比喻可能是不恰當處長我那天問你你說你在管欸我說他是你的上司上司說要看那個調查報告你根本不敢回我"},{"start":10459.212,"end":10483.812,"text":"中山不准看那份文件嗎我只要依照行政院的公文處理規定我只要根據行政院公文處理的規定被質疑的當事人當事人或利害關係的人絕對不可以調閱涉及自己的報告你先跟他溝通好不好然後我們處理第四案這個先保留"},{"start":10484.492,"end":10508.76,"text":"他剛剛來溝通過了我沒有辦法接受就是比照勞動部的方式處理啊那表示勞動部其實第一次調查是內容蠻完整只是那個結論不對有這個東西結論不對主席講一下那個不應該講說你們跟勞動部的整個調查差異在什麼地方講清楚這第一點那第二點我是覺得陳委員的提案我有點對不起我是看一下你的第三段話"},{"start":10510.561,"end":10536.768,"text":"最後結論記憶卻僅基於事務會的員工訪談定調為霸凌不是那個字是為我剛剛有就是為霸凌他總共140份裡面最後15個人說他沒有但是事實上有50幾個人說他有霸凌對你以名的時候這樣這個為要改掉了對 為要改掉 謝謝因為剛剛有改成為啦 好啦你差一點說一下 我差一點說一下好 來"},{"start":10539.269,"end":10559.669,"text":"總召喊還有各位委員非常感謝各位對於本案的一個關心我想這個跟勞動部的差異大概有幾個部分第一個我們在勞動部那邊他是屬於那個單一事件那我們這個事實上是我們總共我們在這裡面我們的那個根據委員他所提供的我們現在目前做了一個全盤的一個調查"},{"start":10561.05,"end":10579.476,"text":"另外第二個它所涉及的我們這裡面我剛才說我們用的是量化跟質化兩個部分同時並進同時並行另外第三個剛剛我想陳委員剛剛有說到就是說我們的質化訪談裡面我們這裡面有兩位他有認為就是說是有這樣的情況可是另外15位他認為是沒有"},{"start":10581.024,"end":10603.53,"text":"那我們其實這裡面行政法裡面有一個非常叫做為私行為一體就是說我們在對一個人的一個評價必須要整個綜合你不能夠只是說就是說單聽某一個部分那這裡面確實有一些同仁他認為有一個比較大聲但是其他的同仁他認為沒有那我們調查委員是根據整個綜合的一個評價來進行這樣的一個判斷的"},{"start":10605.41,"end":10629.531,"text":"那另外第三個非常重要的一點就是說其實在上次的整個未還委員裡面大家也都決議了這裡面我們在邀請同仁來的時候同仁基本上都他們基本上就認為就是說他們不希望能夠曝光這基本上跟我們之前的那個整個性騷擾的那個案子事實上是類似的一個情況所以我們基於對於同仁這樣的一個尊重我們認為這個不宜那如果說委員如果說大院覺得就是說"},{"start":10630.191,"end":10659.101,"text":"我們這裡面如果有一些程序上的瑕疵需要來改進這個我們會一定一定來進行那是不是可以允許讓我們做一個整個調查報告之後兩個月之內再提出來我想這個是我對於整個就是說我們之間的這個差異還有我們現在目前的一個相關作為來跟擔任作為報告還有另外剛剛委員有提到就是說這一個住建一方市場為例已有什麼逼迫深蹲等等這些我們其實之前我們也說過了我們非常歡迎當事人他能夠"},{"start":10659.881,"end":10680.435,"text":"他能夠出來那他如果他覺得他不信任沒關係是不是有陪同這個委員甚至他指定律師這個都沒問題我們都公平公正可是這位同仁到目前為止他就是不願意出來所以我們這個基本上是完完全全是以這個程序來進行那我現在說程序上面目前都已經進行"},{"start":10682.717,"end":10699.509,"text":"那是不是我們也侵蝕也根據委員會的一個決議來跟這個委員來做一個說明所以是不是可以來按照我們現在目前可以讓我們有兩個月的時間來做報告來 以上好說明 謝謝那個召委可以讓我說一下嗎"},{"start":10700.37,"end":10715.608,"text":"我覺得這個案子其實無論是衛福部或是陳昭之委員大家都想要保護這一些受害者我想這個是大家都可以接受的所以陳昭之委員提到說這個阻密的部分擔心他可能在這個職務上面"},{"start":10716.949,"end":10742.74,"text":"他可能職權比較高然後可能會去讓這些員工擔心會變成是被秋後算帳我覺得某一種可能請部長跟次長再考量一下就是說確定一定不會有這樣的事情發生我覺得陳昭志委也是很好意因為我們都是想要我們都要保護這一些員工不要讓他們戰戰兢兢今天好不容易鼓起勇氣講這些事情如果被秋後算帳"},{"start":10743.72,"end":10772.522,"text":"那個就是我們對他們的保護不足這個就是大家應該要檢討的所以我比較具體建議第一個就是說的確這一次你們時間也很壓縮本來應該是兩個月後來說大家要趕快所以變一個月嘛所以過程的確也是有些瑕疵可以改進的所以你們答應的就是說要去提你們的檢討未來類似這樣的調查你們的調查機制就是應該要檢討這個我想你們應該要做了好不好這個第一點一定要做這樣子"},{"start":10773.343,"end":10783.623,"text":"然後第二個當時我記得部長也有說如果有新市政就重啟調查對不對包括時代力量他們有開具轉會然後有受害人出來說"},{"start":10785.322,"end":10805.549,"text":"就是說我都沒有被調查那個心事證也應該要重新調查所以那個部分就是是不是趙志文可以就是說你要求要調查部分我們針對心事證你們硬要調查還有的確在你們的調查報告當時講的時候的確你們的問卷裡面就是有人有提到說曾經什麼"},{"start":10806.109,"end":10821.583,"text":"但那個你們就漏死掉了就是說沒有再往下追查那所謂新市政重新調查我覺得給衛福部時間就是說大家是希望說不要有受委屈的同仁沒有被看見那針對那一些曾經有表達說"},{"start":10823.044,"end":10849.569,"text":"有曾經有過的或者是頻率比較高的是不是可以有什麼方法部長讓同仁安心知道說還是可以持續不是這件事情到此告一段落如果持續有新市政持續有同仁覺得有委屈沒有被受理這個是一直開放的門沒有關然後持續那如果有新的你必須承諾委員會就繼續叫他我覺得昭之委員他是很站在這個員工的立場想要讓真相是更清楚那"},{"start":10850.309,"end":10874.672,"text":"這個我覺得是不是可以去做這樣那至於阻密的這個人事案我想部長聽到大家的疑慮跟擔心這個部分看你們在職選上面是不是可以做什麼處理我是具體這樣建議啦那看到這個謝謝王文綺剛剛你大概一直在強調新市政但是我今天早上的質詢一直在告訴大家我明明有看到很多的東西照顧三成的人但是一個都自自沒有提"},{"start":10875.333,"end":10889.966,"text":"就這麼多的調查問題我只是以一個案例為例我今天只是先以主密就本身你的如果你的調查充滿了瑕疵跟點那幾個人你有一百四十個人裡面有三十不同的問題都有三成以上說他有"},{"start":10890.946,"end":10916.311,"text":"曾經經常或總是都有提到但是這個部分你們都不提然後最後訪問了17個也不知道怎麼找的然後15個人幫他講話那兩個人其實又講了很多很清楚的話那這些都沒有在報這答案就是說未辦所以這個新市政LY講一下就是說他有調查到的跟勞動部第一次一樣其實勞動部第一次已經有點到很多東西但是他的結論不太符合所以我是希望我今天提出的那個方法學的那個問題"},{"start":10917.791,"end":10931.001,"text":"或是你取樣問題那個部分要一併處理不是說新的新的那你原來舊有的都沒有處理好你怎麼說新的定義是包括這個就是說原有的事實你要重新再檢驗一次嘛"},{"start":10934.039,"end":10962.278,"text":"可以嗎就是原有的事實再重新檢驗一次因為你也說過如果我們不滿意可以再提出來我是問你的員工寫出這些東西讓他士氣好你管你的衛福部如果大家都士氣好你不是大家會做得好嗎那有關這個因為主命牽涉到當事人那你這個資料怎麼保護我覺得很重要因為這個大家員工都跟我講啊都跟我講說他們怕秋後算帳我唸了不是二十句一二十句他們寫的話給你們看嘛他們都怕秋後算帳說我還在職啊所以我不敢講啊"},{"start":10963.318,"end":10973.151,"text":"都寫出我剛剛有依依念給你們聽啊那你怎麼保證他永遠看不到這份報告因為他的主責他的權責裡面就有一項他管理負責機密文件的管理啊"},{"start":10974.307,"end":11002.872,"text":"你英文一四人看不懂嗎 還可以 還可以講話你先問他 看他四萬多塊內地你給蔡主委看一看這樣好不好 對啦 自然勝利了啦一定一定 針對剛剛真的很感動啦大家真的為了把這件事情做得更好將來能夠更好 真的是我個人覺得很感動這樣而且也幫台灣整個工作環境弄好你的部門欸 你的員工欸一定 第一個我保證絕對不會有任何秋後算帳的任何嫌疑可以 我在這邊"},{"start":11003.932,"end":11014.097,"text":"但是你要設立機制啊你不會馬上又升官了那下面你的保證就是衛福部又不知道誰來接你那升官了然後處理部長說我也很感動的啦部長也不會邱柯算帳好不好這樣文藝金用出來好不好來來來部長我們很感動的處長你再唸一次"},{"start":11024.602,"end":11048.456,"text":"人事署署長你再唸一次啦 別再插嘴我唸一次 歪歪的啦就是在第一段的時候第一段的第四行那個未要改成未有的未不是因為的未然後第三段的這個部分原提案要求未不佈"},{"start":11049.557,"end":11067.347,"text":"因檢討此次調查缺失並於兩個月將檢討報告送未還委員會檢討之後有新的整理嗎會有新的報告出來吧檢討報告就是我們那個範圍一定會"},{"start":11070.149,"end":11087.765,"text":"包含你就是兩位委員今天給我們的指導比如說問卷啊還有什麼方法等等這部分我們都會去我們會概括在這份報告裡面檢討後通常有一些動作我們這邊能弄好就結束了"},{"start":11088.645,"end":11104.031,"text":"檢討後有一些動作啊檢討後的部長對不對你檢討你會覺得你沒辦法轉然後改善嘛要有行動的改善檢討及改善改善策略改善措施"},{"start":11104.851,"end":11118.863,"text":"那個不是改就是措施要去執行的是啊 改善措施 措施就是執行的那就是報告WQ我再稍微重複一下兩個月內將檢討及改善措施報告送衛環委員會檢討及改善措施"},{"start":11124.758,"end":11152.468,"text":"然後好 那個保證就當事人不會看到的部分部長你是怎麼保證法就是讓他明確的大家都知道啊他以後會看到啊人事室處長已經其實講過很多次啦這個絕對不會給當事人這個未接他只是整理資料而已啊不是不是我有矚密的職權啊他可以看 矚密的職權我一定會給你看啊你自己定的啊但是只要有牽涉到自己本身的即使就是不可能終身嗎絕對"},{"start":11154.208,"end":11182.808,"text":"終身不能看嘛 對不對這是制度的問題這是國家制度的問題好 謝謝好啦 那這樣就照修改後通過來 第四案 比較快點陳慶威在立案啦第四案行政長沒意見"},{"start":11183.849,"end":11211.047,"text":"那個跟委員報告齁就是針對陳委員的提案裡面因為剛剛部長跟那個邱委員報告就是說三個月嘛所以我們建議把他後面倒數第三行開始特決議衛福部應限期三個月內啟動研議醫師騷擾那個性騷擾行為接入平台程序就是把那個二改成三然後完成改成研議然後最後作業改成程序"},{"start":11214.066,"end":11216.836,"text":"就建置程序可以"},{"start":11220.086,"end":11243.742,"text":"好那第四案第四案就照宣告通過第五案那第五案就是針對陳偉宇有說應限期兩個月內完成該類我們建議是把它刪掉到那個就是從我們希望格局拉大一點就是說完成遺傳性及罕病指定檢驗機構之審查作為及精進檢討"},{"start":11245.589,"end":11259.917,"text":"不要一直聚焦在這麼小的範圍裡面我們希望把整個格局範圍幫他那您應該知道現在這個很缺人好 OK好 可以 謝謝好 謝謝依照修改"},{"start":11272.659,"end":11301.197,"text":"我從不打架的好那個就是因限於兩個月內完成遺傳性及罕病指定檢驗機構之審查作業進行檢討就是把那個我們希望把格局拉大把剛剛前面陳偉宇已經有提了有遺傳性及罕病指定機構之那個檢驗機構之臨床細胞檢驗血這一類我們把這前面標題再把它往下拉我們希望用整體來檢討不是只有針對這個部分"},{"start":11304.262,"end":11308.444,"text":"我們全部的臨時提案都處理完畢那我們現在休息8分鐘就好了"},{"start":11336.343,"end":11352.515,"text":"阿就要放尿阿要放尿捏然後再跟委員會報告在牛許庭"},{"start":11354.484,"end":11364.527,"text":"實習完畢我們休息二十分鐘吃便當各位專播的人都要來問啦今天你們看不見大家都要來啦大家都磨刀厚厚啦來"},{"start":11839.096,"end":11851.682,"text":"男人小便超過27秒就是攝護腺有問題了所以我都很嚴格遵守27秒內好 繼續開會請林淑雲委員質詢好 謝謝昭偉是不是還是請我們部長衛福部舅部長不好意思喔"},{"start":11870.58,"end":11871.669,"text":"好啦 你現在可以來了啦"},{"start":11874.11,"end":11884.117,"text":"委員長部長這個醫院大火8條人命我已經質詢你很多次了我不是談個案我一直跟你講10月7號的時候我跟你講你有沒有去盤點因為到去年年底12月31號醫院評鑑要有117家那你在這個評鑑的過程當中117家有沒有管縣老舊蘇山洞縣等公安問題消防問題的這個發現然後10月7號問你"},{"start":11904.13,"end":11918.318,"text":"你也不知道然後11月4號再問你有沒有有多少醫院有哪幾家醫院有病安公安的疑慮叫你盤點一下這個到時候我們要優先的這個公安的政策的對策是什麼"},{"start":11919.358,"end":11922.223,"text":"你告訴我一個月你當時是說這個恐怕要再調查一次我們會去調查各地方政府還有消防局他們的調查結果一個月內要跟我們報告現在已經兩個月了從10月7號到現在也已經三四個月了這個問題"},{"start":11934.522,"end":11938.404,"text":"沒有任何報告來啦各位委員我們跟他說他跟我們承諾全部都沒報告這樣都不怎樣現在這是怎麼裝睡的人叫不醒還是腳麻了不怕還是說明目張膽的在包庇因為一路走來你始終認為"},{"start":11951.912,"end":11957.576,"text":"這個地方政府的事、地方消防局的事、地方的問題跟你都無關的但我要講說你們的醫院評鑑、你們的醫策會你們都沒有去發現問題到底問題有沒有比較集中在哪些問題、哪些方面然後就政策面要怎麼納入管制你不能說我以後評鑑要納入評鑑項目那也是我跟你說的地區醫院沒有納入公安的任何評鑑你現在說你要改良現在到底是怎樣"},{"start":11981.973,"end":11983.176,"text":"有到底有187間骨瘤醫治要評測的有問題到底幾間啦"},{"start":11990.523,"end":12000.931,"text":"好 謝謝委員 我想上次執行以後我們馬上就折承各縣市政府衛生局依照內政部國安局現在差過2個月 你跟我說調查結果和報告就好了它就是到12月31啦我知道啊 今天已經1月2號啊我們那個會把它整理以後馬上那你當初承諾我的是在爭笑的嗎當時你回答我說你們要去調查各地方政府和消防局他們的調查結果一個月之內跟你報告這樣是給我爭笑的"},{"start":12019.286,"end":12021.738,"text":"一個月兩個多月過去你跟我講說我們還在彙整"},{"start":12024.367,"end":12048.819,"text":"欸 趙薇 現在補充來這裡 自己說的都是親善公共 不用買單 不用負責的嗎你以為是親善跟我講的嗎你這樣對臺人民是這個態度 我不是代表零十五分的我代表全臺灣的人民來這裡監督質詢你你告訴我你一個月內要拿出報告結果兩個多月過去 你不但沒有拿出報告 你還跟人講說這等一下我們還去調查報告一下"},{"start":12051.44,"end":12056.944,"text":"阿你現在會把我整瘋嗎?還是你上回是青菜公共的?我現在說這個很嚴肅喔今天一月,跟兩天的橋櫃兩各位啊你沒調查報告欸!10月25日,還有便宜內發生火災內苗栗縣慈祐醫院,凌晨4點多還發生火警幸好全院105人就地避難,無人傷亡詳細的起火原因還要調查"},{"start":12078.658,"end":12085.569,"text":"而且恰好的是這一家醫院的評鑑合格校期也是這一波裡面要接受評鑑的"},{"start":12087.071,"end":12100.041,"text":"所以這間便衣評鑑到期的期間呢它就發生不明原因的火災這間的火災 那間的火災我現在問你說這個問題 主管機關的衛福部你有去了解嗎 你有重視這個問題嗎你在這個狀況裡面立委質詢這麼多次 你對我虛偽偽疑"},{"start":12110.526,"end":12117.173,"text":"那你現在是治醫院的公安於何地你治醫院看病的病人於何地"},{"start":12120.253,"end":12141.687,"text":"你現在閃閃躲躲又裝睡覺不行你再讓我講下去我真的不想用形容詞可是我覺得說 我覺得很羞恥欸你出身醫界你對病人的安全 公共安全卻這樣子忽視忽略你來這裡都是在應付你自己的不是真的發自內心覺得醫院的公共安全很重要"},{"start":12142.407,"end":12150.131,"text":"我已經跟昨天問你第三倍了你都在想我去跟地方的政府跟消防局會政一下我現在不是在說會政你評測單位 你的醫測會你不用親自去了解第一時間趕快所有數據拿回來看一下這一些被評鑑的醫院 病安公安的問題大多數都是在哪裡"},{"start":12168.559,"end":12184.01,"text":"那如果是全面性的大家在這些領域都有問題的話你面對珍貴的生命和公共安全你不用想說我們的對策是什麼嗎還是擺明了就是說包庇這些公安缺失的意願然後你又想說我不能得罪他們這問題這麼嚴重我自己自我揭露就很難看政府抹黑全土灰"},{"start":12191.695,"end":12198.901,"text":"現在是要替監護擦脂抹粉還是真的要替白人安全要顧好病人的安全每一個到醫院去的他的生命安全都應該要被保障我不是談個案但從那個大火事件的傷亡個案來看這個危險性不低危險性不低去病院是要提名要求名的去那裡等到沒名這樣感到"},{"start":12221.884,"end":12230.013,"text":"你再回答我一次啦答案是什麼我想那個謝謝委員我想如果醫院發生火災不只病人"},{"start":12231.98,"end":12241.709,"text":"你來告訴我什麼時候給我數據到去年為止因為你剛接受評鑑你住嘴你剛才住嘴你已經有到達人身攻擊的時候我必須要回應因為你就是這個樣子啊很羞恥啊10月問一次11月問一次12月說要一個月之後要給我回答你完全沒有給立委回答我們一生"},{"start":12254.56,"end":12276.948,"text":"你這裡虛偽疑你知兵人的公安與活地還敢在這裡講說你要個人的名譽我們要公共的安全比你個人的名譽還更重要民民的品質安全尤其到醫院的安全是我們花盡多少精力你就空口白話信口雌黃完全沒有提出對策你每天在這裡問你問題有多嚴重你就不懂得怎麼說你是要說什麼"},{"start":12283.825,"end":12296.728,"text":"你的扶老責任在哪裡 醫院到底安不安全當下發現 主席 主席 他干擾你的時間我現在在說 他是怎麼跟我的社群在說來 請你講 請你講 抱歉當下發現保護局有待改進時 到底有多少數量有幾件便宜你若不說便宜的名字 你告訴我 總有幾件可以買來 依策委來回答"},{"start":12312.15,"end":12330.175,"text":"沒有 還有什麼來那個誰如果本年度如果社評的醫院在醫院出現值有公安問題相關的建議或者改善的意見因為我們也不是消防單位嘛他是評鑑你現在在說什麼 我聽不懂講我缺話分"},{"start":12334.474,"end":12355.399,"text":"不夠 白白的 給他抽水的他如果發生大火 他是沒有辦法逃生的而就必須要防火區為的話分 這是最重要的不要化完那一場大火 死了八個人裡面不是休息的 是怕煙嗆死了所以煙害的管控 有毒煙的控管"},{"start":12356.809,"end":12370.616,"text":"這個是很重要的我現在問你說除了已經有傷亡的以外你現在評鑑裡面還有幾間有這個防火區域的問題有嚴控的問題有公共安全的問題我現在告訴你有多少數量試射到這個經過了四個月你還講不出來你經過四個月講不出來你跟我講說你在乎病人的安全你在乎醫院的安全現在是怎樣 被你笑了"},{"start":12385.626,"end":12390.369,"text":"立委問你三次 你講不出來 區議委都有在做啊我現在要問你 你現在是有動於裝 腳麻了 走不掉 沒辦法走還是裝睡人家不行 還是你就是明目張膽的要包庇而在這當中 還有醫院繼續在發生火災這是好運的 哪有壞運的叫病人 那些傷亡的病人的家屬情何以堪啊"},{"start":12415.285,"end":12428.378,"text":"你現在給我回答 還有幾件有問題你今天這個問題 你就說不出來這麼簡單的問題 我問四個月 你說不出來你叫人家對你不要非議 怎麼可能你叫人家不對你批評 怎麼可能"},{"start":12434.261,"end":12452.227,"text":"包委員我們12月30要蒐集以後馬上整理馬上跟你報你講的問題我會一天你沒辦法因為你剛剛放寒假啊沒有委員會啊所以你蒐集你要給我報告去哪裡報告我們說到做到說到做到你從來沒有說到做到10月的時候沒有回答我們11月的時候沒有回答我們你告訴我一個月以後要給我答案也沒有回答我們"},{"start":12460.23,"end":12464.692,"text":"我今天要問的不是這個問題我今天要問的還有很多問題 因為時間有限我都會去進行啦 你放心 我會去進行你說的每一個位都沒有這張 所以不會去放心會去進行啦 但是因為這要牽涉到很多單位嘛你就是你做了什麼 而你今天的作為沒有達到人家可以信任的標準所以你叫人家怎麼對你信任"},{"start":12487.185,"end":12498.155,"text":"國土事務的資料連體會回覆 馬上會跟委員報告你當初怎麼跟他說一句話 親握著這寡信啊公司的人說親在這裡 親在那裡 都說好好好 威威諾諾是搞都做不到啦 你說出來的話說到做不到"},{"start":12510.808,"end":12520.536,"text":"你今天失信於全國人民,是因為你講出來,你自己未講出來,會不勝為這才是真正的大問題啦先這樣子,謝謝好,謝謝好,謝謝林委員,繼續我們繼續我們請廖瑋祥委員質詢"},{"start":12549.921,"end":12565.732,"text":"謝謝主席喔 那有請我們的這個衛福部長 勞動部長還有我們的吳院長吳院長還有我們台大的王祖密 台大校方的王祖密"},{"start":12573.217,"end":12587.959,"text":"我想要先請問一下王祖密學生受性騷的部分校方是何時知悉的是112年底還是113年2月那還是是113年6月25號的時候台大醫院發函給校方校方才知道請問是哪個時間點"},{"start":12590.202,"end":12613.835,"text":"報告委員因為這個事情是發生在台大醫院那他是當事人並不是學生所以學校這邊事實上在第一線是不知道因為他是受到騷擾的應該是算是醫院的員工所以學校是在醫院處理完以後學校才知道的是"},{"start":12615.023,"end":12628.569,"text":"所以我想要請問一下就是這個多名受害家這個如果有這些受害的人我想要請問願醫院何時要通報校方若發生這個事情醫院應該何時通報校方還有祖密請問醫院有義務通報嗎"},{"start":12630.61,"end":12656.11,"text":"因為那個就是剛剛提到的因為依照性供法事實上性供法它發生在工作的場域就有工作場域的負責人那現在就是台大的醫院來處理如果中間有涉及到學生那當然有就他們有義務要跟學校講那學校馬上也會處理可是因為這個事情因為就剛剛跟委員報告的他沒有學生涉及在裡面所以就不是被被性"},{"start":12656.63,"end":12678.268,"text":"不是被性騷的就是學生,也是學生嗎?他是雙重身份啊他是住院醫師他有學生的身份嗎?應該是沒有完全沒有學生的身份好,那其實今天這個事情之所以社會嘩然了因為這所謂的權威醫生,這個權威醫生導致的這個性騷案其實讓全社會都非常的驚訝和訝異"},{"start":12680.109,"end":12693.561,"text":"那這個過程中就透露出來我們整個制度和文化上很大的缺陷和很大的問題所以今天我剛剛特別問這個問題其實我也有聽今天早上所有的這個質詢"},{"start":12695.502,"end":12722.673,"text":"當然我們要依法依規勿枉勿縱可是發現這個問題是兩個部長以及教育部的代表C教授的案子是跨身份跨法規競合的案例如果法律沒有規範義務通報的話那的確是法律的漏洞但是在法律還沒修正之前其實這種跨身份或是跨法規競合的案例其實最常也會出現在實習生的身上"},{"start":12723.635,"end":12750.031,"text":"對不對所以您也點頭那請問一下各位萬一如果未來又發生這樣的性騷案件請問各單位要如何處理才不會拖延是這個我們會來跟醫院這邊我們因為有這次的經驗所以我們會建立一個相關的管道那以前是因為我們區分得很清楚就是說因為像這次涉及的是住院醫師事實上他已經沒有學生的身份可是像您講的說如果這一位當事人他有"},{"start":12750.411,"end":12767.891,"text":"老師的身份他如果他有老師的身份的話我們是不是就請醫院這邊如果知道任何的訊息就可以至少讓學校這邊有一個先知道的這個這個管道所以其實我其實是很敬重我們吳院長和我們的高副院長我們高教授是"},{"start":12768.431,"end":12793.027,"text":"這都是一件很令人驚訝的那這一次當然我聽了你們所有的這個回應其實有很多社會上的質疑有一些部分有一些部分有回答為什麼當初這樣可能沒有意識到他是教授的身份所以我今天特別請各位上來就是說包含部長包含教育部或是包含我們院方和校方其實這個東西應該是會存在在非常多的這種制度裡面這是不是應該痛定思痛的來檢討所以的確當初發生這個事情但是我還有一個疑點"},{"start":12796.989,"end":12821.816,"text":"就是我想要請問一下我們的這個調查主委就是其實我想要請問這位C教授這個權威教授他在台大醫院任職了多久在這個地方任職了多久他任職應該是20多年對那我想要請問一下針對這件事情你們有沒有更進一步的作為因為事實上20多年我相信不會是到今年才發生這件事情吧"},{"start":12823.25,"end":12829.697,"text":"那這個部分我們應該怎麼去處理呢因為這個是一個令人令社會非常震驚的事情"},{"start":12830.796,"end":12857.501,"text":"我想對於性騷擾這些全民的這個價值了解等等也是最近漸漸的促進成型而且有很多很多的法規那所以那另外一方面其實他有要求要有申訴人那我們這一次我必須要再回去剛才回答前面的問題我們只要針對教職其實他只要有申訴人出來我們是立即通知學校所以從過去的"},{"start":12858.441,"end":12872.812,"text":"鄭王李等等的事件都是這樣子都是立即通知學校那但是我們也鑒於就是說譬如說鄭的那個事件後來我們因為他是可能懷疑有性侵所以我們性騷沒有辦法處理所以我們用一個另外一個調查小組醫院也是很積極在做那這個因為他確實是他沒有申訴人而我們用雇主主動"},{"start":12883.32,"end":12907.679,"text":"好 謝謝高副院長其實我剛剛就是說我有聽你們這些東西所以我現在還是在強調就是說那這個東西你們應該是不是因為二十多年來那這個陳鵝就是應該怎麼去根除它呢這個問題到底要怎麼處理其實這跟勞動部霸凌事件其實有類似的相似之處這就為什麼這次開這個會其實我覺得也很有意義啊就請你們來講清楚之外避免大家持續的"},{"start":12909.16,"end":12929.848,"text":"這個對於你們的有一些誤解可是事實上這個東西才是你們應該看到的而不是就是說我都是依法依規處理因為顯然這個在這個環境裡面已經有造成這樣的狀況而且二十多年我是不相信就只有到今年才會有人才會有人講這件事情還有另外一個問題就是為什麼沒有申訴人這是不是也值得深究的問題"},{"start":12930.828,"end":12947.288,"text":"就是說為什麼他告訴你了但是他不敢申訴為什麼不敢正式成為申訴人我想這個不只在台大院任何一個受害者他加上權勢等等都有可能他有他的考量他的隱私他的家人等等的考量所以這個我們一定要尊重"},{"start":12947.828,"end":12971.108,"text":"所以也就是鑒於說有可能會影響到他個人所以我們才用由雇主來直接辦案因為我們聽到大概就是有兩三位那也就是這兩三位他也願意接受訪談我們才有可能把這個案子查得比較清楚那至於說過去等等因為現在所加害受害的這就是在現況"},{"start":12972.169,"end":12989.849,"text":"她有讓她闡述這段時間的情形那過去有沒有這個我們真的不知道因為沒有調查到那麼那跟針對過去這個部分怎麼辦有很多人現在還在可能還創傷甚至是當初開記者會的時候就是有女性醫師寫出她整個經歷歷歷在目"},{"start":12992.111,"end":13009.066,"text":"所以我想其實我也是用理性的方式在跟你們對話我覺得這應該是一個跨部會要痛定思痛包含說這個多身分別有沒有需要把這個法律的漏洞補齊然後以及校方內校方跟醫院這種我相信也不是只有台大是"},{"start":13009.867,"end":13034.748,"text":"對不對那這個部分是不是應該也要由這個台大來做一個典範不然當初這個所有的事情就讓真的是讓大家很震驚啊這些婦產科醫生看了多少的女性然後二十幾年來然後只有最近這些案子被人家曝光那二十幾年來有多少人是受害者不知道所以這個部分我希望這個是不是可以請不管是部長或是我們台大校方跟醫院我知道"},{"start":13036.029,"end":13059.362,"text":"這個主委你是照依法你覺得是依你的法依法行政去處理可是我相信您身為這個女性的醫生你一定很感同身受對我們其實對於受害者的學生我們有給他很清楚的比如說所有他們只要能夠願意來跟我們談我們都提供很多的隨時待命所以這個部分"},{"start":13060.682,"end":13084.21,"text":"這部分還要麻煩我們會再繼續努力另外吳院長我也要跟您說一下你剛剛有一直說就是大家給機會來把這件事情闡述清楚其實我覺得這一次是讓社會好好的審視到底發生了什麼事情所以今天的質詢很有意義但是吳院長你剛剛說這個絕對沒有受這個壓力其實我要告訴你當初的報導不是指你們有受到壓力其實是台大校方說校長有受到壓力"},{"start":13085.59,"end":13102.937,"text":"這是台大校方可是校長沒有來但是當然其實我上次質詢也說校長挺住了壓力所以才讓這件事情爆出來也沒有因此不讓他就是讓他就是去退休這我我是認同的但是因為就是有背後到底什麼壓力存在這個校長沒來根本不清楚所以我要告訴院長是這樣"},{"start":13103.957,"end":13132.73,"text":"所以這個到底是有沒有人有沒有什麼問題沒關係你不用回答因為這個問題不是在你身上不過我是回答剛才廖委員提到的我們之後我想會不會預防生理治療其實在這件事情調查的當中我們就已經在很多的醫務行政會議甚至我們在主治醫師座談會我們都有宣傳這個性騷髮甚至我們請了王立榮這個專家來跟所有的人講"},{"start":13133.63,"end":13151.089,"text":"所以这一方面我们是希望可以预防肾疫治疗还有管道的安全性因为你们管道要让受害人要有信任可以去申诉因为医界可能很多人觉得圈圈小有一些权威性真的是在医界权威度非常高根本不敢讲"},{"start":13151.81,"end":13181.05,"text":"對不對那你要怎麼樣去做到這個透明又保障讓他們所謂的透明不是就是對他來講他是不會被其他這些加害者的周遭的人去通風報信的這個狀況我要請這個院長和我們的高副院長是不是在這部分繼續努力還有文化上面這個職場的整個制度的問題是不是要再拜託你們成為再次成為台灣在這部分的標杆因為我想真的不會是只有存在在所謂台大的體系裡面"},{"start":13181.87,"end":13206.492,"text":"我們有決心一定會把它做好而且我們一定會做好保障我們也在院方的層次裡面事實上這些人包括以這次涉案科部的主任他是一直到4月才被調查小組約談他才知道他們科部有這種事情所以我們也就怕一開始就讓科部的主任知道的話就會影響這個"},{"start":13207.233,"end":13228.706,"text":"好那我們也順便講一下王祖密這個有人施壓或什麼的請你們不要害怕該做的就要做不知道有沒有因為校長也沒來嘛本來想問的大家也沒來那沒關係你不用回答因為你也沒辦法帶他回答誰知道對不對也沒有辦法調查嘛也沒有什麼也沒辦法徵竊聽或什麼都沒有辦法所以我只是要提醒的就是說針對這種事情就應該要勇敢的去承擔勇敢的去處理"},{"start":13232.768,"end":13245.893,"text":"那這次當然你們也並沒有受到什麼所謂的壓力就改變了你們的決策但是這部分要請你們也盡速處理那謝謝我們台大校方院方還有衛福部長也可以先回座我問一下勞動部長好像時間不太夠一分鐘我先問一下好我直接跳好了"},{"start":13255.236,"end":13272.655,"text":"我想要問一下部長有關身心障礙者的權益保障法因為上一屆在審議時因為內容不周全就遭到障礙團體的抗議然而在去年5月障礙團體也已經達成共識也召開記者會希望盡速的審查"},{"start":13273.496,"end":13294.181,"text":"然後截至到第十屆結束的時候到現在還沒有排審那第十一屆剛開始的時候其實前行政院長陳建仁也承諾說520前要這個送交草案但現在已經到年底了請問卡關的原因是什麼為什麼沒有送版本到立法院來根本說沒有申請人法的主責是衛福部講錯了衛福部對OK"},{"start":13302.308,"end":13320.309,"text":"非常感謝廖委員對於本案的關心我跟博鮑委員我們現在其實部內已經我們已經做完相關的一個修訂那我們現在目前已經送到院那邊我們現在目前我想我們的法規會我想廖委員您非常關心的就是說其實最重要可能是有關自立生活這個部分"},{"start":13321.089,"end":13336.744,"text":"智力生活這邊我們現在目前也已經有相關的一個的一個延命那這個部分我想其實院長他也非常非常關心我們的整個智力生活這邊我們的相關的一些的一些規範這個部分我是不是也請主席所以大概什麼時候"},{"start":13338.121,"end":13364.346,"text":"報告委員我們大概現在開完部內的法規會之後我們1月底因為還遇到過年所以可能會是2月的時候上旬的時候會送到行政院這邊那行政院也承諾說會盡快來召開法規的一個審查那我們希望說可以盡快來完成相關的程序所以剛剛你有提到我們次長有提到說就是個人制度協助制度沒有入法上次的那這一次呢這一次會嗎"},{"start":13365.743,"end":13381.23,"text":"我們有研擬了大概一個條文希望把這個部分來強調不要跟委員報告上一次之所以沒有辦法完全照某些團體的意思把它入法的原因是團體之間有兩派的做法因為其他的團體非常多的團體認為"},{"start":13383.251,"end":13405.882,"text":"心理重建 生活重建等等跟自力生活是相同重要的他們不答應說單獨的列一條所以我們做了很多工作在兩邊很多團體之間的協調那最後 最近可能這個協調比較完成了好 那所以希望你們儘速將這個版本送到立法院來好不好因為已經拖了蠻久而且也超過了之前陳建仁院長說的時間好 謝謝"},{"start":13410.555,"end":13415.301,"text":"謝謝廖委員 謝謝部長那接下來我們請黃秀芳召委執行謝謝主席 我們請衛福部還有我們勞動部部長"},{"start":13431.197,"end":13458.835,"text":"兩位部長好我先就叫我們兩位部長就是我們上禮拜五立法院通過這個就業服務法第46條的修正草案已經通過了那其實民間團體有一些疑慮也有一些擔心就是說這個就服法通過之後可能會有一些搶工的這樣的一個狀況那我想請教就是說衛福部跟勞動部你們針對這一部分有沒有什麼樣的配套措施"},{"start":13465.366,"end":13489.276,"text":"這個先跟黃委員說明確實現在搶工的衝擊是我們現在所擔憂的那我們接下來會跟衛福部那一起我想跨部會的來研擬降低衝擊的做法那看怎麼樣子來我覺得來保障尤其重症家庭他這個聘僱移工的權利但是確實這裡面還涉及幾個部分我想等一下"},{"start":13489.776,"end":13501.412,"text":"也許衛福部也涉及到對整個長照體系的衝擊是那可是我想我們會來有跨部會的研議可是我還是要必須先說因為"},{"start":13503.686,"end":13531.603,"text":"目前的這個修法的內容他確實如果需求端如果快速的衝太快那這個供需失衡的狀況這是我們確實現在會擔憂的情況所以我們會很審慎的來降低衝擊可是如果供給跟需求的差異持續擴大我們還是會有擔心的"},{"start":13532.623,"end":13553.725,"text":"部長我想請教就是說如果未來的這個需求量增加嘛如果以目前來講的話我們每一年增加的這個外籍看護工大約是1萬人左右嘛那如果未來平均嘛那未來如果說80歲以上就是免巴釋量表可能會增加的將近"},{"start":13554.646,"end":13578.823,"text":"也許照這樣子聘僱率的話可能5萬到15萬這中間都有可能那如果說這樣子增加的這個需求那是不是有可能我們勞動部會再找這個外籍看護工的這個來源國或者是外籍看護工這個來源應該要再也這個人員應該也要增加不然你沒辦法有這樣的一個供應啊"},{"start":13579.663,"end":13603.864,"text":"跟委員報告我們一定會來找外交部那一起來跟我們的來源母國來討論可不可以再做這個引進人數的增加但這部分確實涉及到母國來源母國本身的量能因為每一個要來到臺灣的這個家庭看護工他其實是要在母國受訓"},{"start":13605.365,"end":13625.499,"text":"如果母國的授訓的能量沒有辦法提高的話你現在要把它的這個量拉高很有可能會讓授訓的品質其實也會跟著下降所以這裡面其實是存在著很多不是台灣政府我自己想要進多少就能進多少的"},{"start":13625.819,"end":13650,"text":"它跟母國在那邊的量能跟因素也有關係甚至也會涉及到我們其實跟其他國家之間的競爭可是確實相比於日韓日韓當然他們不是用家庭看護工的形式他們是機構的形式可是在機構形式目前他們開出來的薪資是超過台灣的可能超過台灣的兩倍所以我們在薪資上面的競爭力確實是比較"},{"start":13651.781,"end":13671.158,"text":"比較低的那種種的這些因素只是想要讓大家知道我們會努力去爭取能不能擴大進這個供給面的部分但這真的不是我們自己想進多少就能進多少它涉及到的因素跟不確定的因素真的很多這是為什麼我們現在很擔心的地方的來源主要在這裡"},{"start":13672.339,"end":13689.817,"text":"所以我希望就是說這個法已經通過那後續勞動部這邊的配套措施我覺得說你們要趕快定啦那另外就是說這個我們看到目前我們外籍移工81萬人那其中這個看護工大約是22.5"},{"start":13693.88,"end":13705.05,"text":"大約是這樣子那我們現在目前失聯的移工就有9萬多那其中這個看護工就失聯的這個看護工就有3萬多啦那一般的這個這個製造業就"},{"start":13707.452,"end":13724.1,"text":"也5萬多加起來還有其他零零總總加起來差不多9萬多左右的這個失言移工那我們現在擔心的就是說好那未來如果我們這個這個開始實施之後也許這些外籍看護工他可能也想要"},{"start":13725.06,"end":13750.512,"text":"就是選擇比較好照顧的這個案組所以我覺得說這方面一方面我們是擔心就是說這個外籍移工逃跑這個狀況會不會越來越嚴重那另外就是說來源國或者是這個看護這個外籍移工的這個來源我覺得應該也要更多元要不然我覺得可能沒辦法去因應未來的這個需求"},{"start":13751.567,"end":13772.114,"text":"跟花園說明確實失聯移工其實他的原因有蠻多不同的原因但其中一個源頭的原因是因為比方說確實家庭看護工他跟現在產業移工之間的薪資的差距是比較大所以當這個不同類型的移工他的薪資差距大的狀況之下他會增加他會想要離開他現在現有工作"},{"start":13772.614,"end":13788.876,"text":"或提前離開的這樣的動機這也是為什麼我們其實在這個階段我們都必須來非常非常的小心在包括說移工的工作的權益人權也包括是他的薪資的部分要省省這有一個要跟國際上面對齊的國際的壓力"},{"start":13790.658,"end":13814.893,"text":"那不然如果我們不把這個顧好的話其實這個這個他失聯的動機一直存在那這個整體試驗況你要靠後端來靠內政部的專情隊來來抓來處理還是非常有其實那個其實都難度都很高對好那我們希望就是說呃這個呃就服務法46條已經通過那我們希望說你們的配套可能要盡快出來然後就是說"},{"start":13815.894,"end":13830.735,"text":"因應未來的這個需要的這個供需我覺得應該要平衡可是我覺得如果未來的這個需求量大增的話可能會有這個搶工的這個狀況所以我覺得你們要怎麼去配套我覺得你們應該要趕快去因應"},{"start":13832.797,"end":13837.42,"text":"好謝謝那接下來我請這個邱部長就是說這個舊輔法46條通過之後那我剛剛有提到就是說也許會有這個搶攻的這個狀況那可能會比較難照顧的這個案組可能會不會變成被遺棄的一群所以我想請教就是說部長未來針對這部分你們要怎麼去因應是我們這個的確"},{"start":13858.32,"end":13879.369,"text":"很自然的應該要擔心因為總是我們的老常常知道需要照顧的中中正的他的所好的精神會比較多啦所以如果那個太多人得到這個資格的時候第一個我們不需要那麼"},{"start":13881.416,"end":13897.945,"text":"多照顧的他也是可以請到這種家庭照顧工那這個部分的確是很必須要去處理剛剛黃部長也提到我們會跨部會來做討論第二個在場這個其實我們也擔心另外一個長照的"},{"start":13898.945,"end":13919.079,"text":"其實長期照顧是希望負能盡量不要失能所以如果過去我們又希望很多的老人家能夠盡量出來還可以走出來的出來活動一對多的這樣的一個照顧模式當然人力也比較省那也可以多做社會的活動那如果他一對一會不會就變成說"},{"start":13921.281,"end":13935.517,"text":"一個國一個地方 不用太多自己的活動或者是跟社會的一個活動的必要性就稍微降低這是跟長照的一個方向會有點背道而馳 這也是我們未來要努力的"},{"start":13936.198,"end":13948.75,"text":"那我現在擔心的就是說一些比較中重症的這個案組可能會被遺棄因為總是外籍移工或看護工他可以選擇嘛那他應該也會選擇比較好照顧的"},{"start":13951.673,"end":13978.596,"text":"如果難照顧的話他應該也會不要所以我覺得如果說未來這個需求量大增那也許這些外籍看護工他可能會就選擇可能比較好照顧的所以我希望說衛福部針對這部分你們要有一些配套措施就是說這些有需求真的非常有需要聘這個外籍看護工的這些家庭"},{"start":13979.116,"end":14005.601,"text":"那未來如果真的聘請不到的話那你們要怎麼去協助好這個我覺得你們應該有一些配套我們當然還有長照服務的一個模式另外就是我們要佈建更多的住宿型的機構來彌補這一塊的一個問題這樣子當然我們會再多元化來做配套的措施好那我希望說要盡快啦不論是衛福部或勞動部真的這一部分一些配套我覺得應該要盡快好謝謝"},{"start":14009.782,"end":14015.745,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長那接著我們請王紅薇書記長謝謝主席我請勞動部部長衛福部部長以及台大醫院院長吳院長吳院長好"},{"start":14040.117,"end":14063.807,"text":"好兩位部長跟院長先延續一下剛剛黃秀芳委員所提到的事實上現在很多的中重度的這個家庭就已經搶不到工或者好不容易搶到工外籍的看護然後很快他們就移出了這個事實上我們已經召開多次的公聽會但是呢衛福部勞動部都沒有辦法幫他們解決所以"},{"start":14066.548,"end":14093.786,"text":"不要以這些問題然後現在意圖嫁禍在給長者說他可以免八十兩表他在搶工我要講這些問題現在就在存在那請問一下現在我們八十歲以上有免八十兩表嗎所以政府該做的事情不要把這個責任推給八十歲以上的長者好那我今天的重點是放在最近我們討論到"},{"start":14095.287,"end":14102.773,"text":"台大出現狼醫那我要特別說這個事情事實上之前經過媒體報導那麼後來我們在黨團也召開記者會然後希望台大醫院能夠提出說明"},{"start":14111.92,"end":14130.48,"text":"因為這個西教授事實上他又轉往其他的醫院繼續的去執業那當然這家醫院竟然對外說他不做內診一個婦科他不做內診不曉得他要做什麼所以大家覺得不可思議"},{"start":14131.821,"end":14155.84,"text":"但是呢現在看起來我們現在全國醫師全聯會去問台大台大才說確定他是有性騷而且呢會給予他處分可是問題是他原來就轉往其他醫院但是我們現在知道因為這事情被鬧大了所以呢在另外一家醫院才做了處置"},{"start":14157.641,"end":14183.117,"text":"事實上台大的狼醫也不是只有這一宗因為最近還發生也是一個負癌的教授涉嫌去下藥性侵了藥廠的女業務所以我要講的是台大醫院事實上是在國內幸運卓著但是一再的發生這樣的狼醫事件"},{"start":14183.897,"end":14211.099,"text":"而性騷之後呢又以種種理由不願意對外證實包含立法院我們去了解台大醫院也可以用很多理由說不予證實說這個怎麼會造成困擾吧啦啦一大堆所以我想請問一下衛福部跟台大醫院未來這些性騷事件調查你們有沒有一套能夠確立的SOP"},{"start":14212.15,"end":14235.807,"text":"我們先請部長回答好嗎謝謝委員我想憲章就是依照憲憑三法去執行那當然縣市衛生局就會有等結果出來那個在縣市衛生局會有審議委員會如果他的嚴重度是到達可能要廢照這個部分那會送衛福部我想這一套是很完整的"},{"start":14235.947,"end":14254.954,"text":"好這個SOP一定要建立起來不要每一個case他不一樣好因為呢他的後台不一樣而有不同的處理那另外因為我時間很有限我請問部長啊請問一下很多民團都要求衛福部應該比照而略好"},{"start":14255.994,"end":14266.462,"text":"如果狼師都可以在地方的教育局的網站上公布狼師那請問一下狼醫應不應該公布我想我這幾天都有針對這個問題的回答我們可以研議來建置平台來公布多久 研議多久今天有今天已經有答應那個"},{"start":14285.72,"end":14290.123,"text":"蘇貞昌委員 三個月 也就是在三月底之前嗎好 儘快好不好 還要搞三個月 非常久另外 讓我再多問一個問題 來請我們勞動部部長"},{"start":14304.111,"end":14322.845,"text":"因为我们现在在公务机关里面不管是霸凌尤其最近霸凌事件那么大家并不相信公务机关内的处理那么所以已经有很多基层的公务部门的一些基层的团体他们有个呼声希望公务员能够适用职安法"},{"start":14323.405,"end":14325.726,"text":"也就是說如果他發生事件 他可以請 比如說他可以請縣市的勞動局來做處理 來做申訴 來做調查因為我們現在的公務體系 事實上是不被信任的所以在這個部分 請問一下部長 你對於他們的呼聲 你可以做研究嗎"},{"start":14345.302,"end":14367.694,"text":"跟網友說明 確實現在在職安法裡面主要是針對一般的勞工的部分公務員其實他有套自己的公務的法規那這部分主管的部分其實是關考試院我們會來問其他的部位 但是就勞動部的立場從勞動部的立場來說 我們當然願意跟考試院一起來討論"},{"start":14369.355,"end":14387.636,"text":"就是說包括確實比方說關於職場的不法侵害或者是未來的職場的霸凌的防治我們其實因為這個我們有包括像治安署那在這段時間其實也做了不少的這個專業上面的研擬就是說如果要在就我知道說好像"},{"start":14389.938,"end":14403.573,"text":"這個考試院這邊也想要做相關法規的修訂對 但他還是在他那個框架裡面那可是確實現在我說現在的法規法規現在是在那但我們很願意跟考試院一起來討論"},{"start":14404.434,"end":14429.813,"text":"所以你這邊可以承諾你可以至少從勞動部的立場可以去跟考試院來做一個協商因為現在這種聲音越來越大我們把我們相關的專業讓考試院知道那我們是願意跟考試院來討論的好我希望說勞動部能夠也本與你們專業來呼應呼應這些基層公務員的聲音好不好好謝謝謝謝王委員謝謝部長"},{"start":14436.365,"end":14439.429,"text":"那接下來我們請牛喜廷委員質詢謝謝主席喔,勞動部部長有請牛委員好"},{"start":14454.916,"end":14481.17,"text":"這一樣剛剛雖然今天的主題當然是已經從公部門的霸凌事件往外擴散但我覺得本質上勞動部的這個問題不能就這麼算我們還是要方方面面來做一個檢討我今天要跟你討論的事情是剛剛其實王宏威委員其實有質詢到除了說適用職安法之外我們也要考量公部門這樣的特殊性然後針對特殊性的狀況去對症下藥才能夠系統性的解決這樣子的一個問題我今天想要跟你討論一下烤雞這個制度的概念"},{"start":14482.25,"end":14510.99,"text":"2024年2月5號全序部推出公務員考積法修正案然後第7條的說明欄裡面有表示法律沒有明定考積等次人數比例實務上大概是75%是假等因此如果列了已等它就會被解讀成為表現比多數人差當然也會跟年終獎金等等有關本期認為考積制度是公務員霸凌事件裡面其中一個不太被重視但我認為其實是關鍵的因素因為公務員的升遷跟獎金其實跟他的考積都是密切相關的"},{"start":14511.75,"end":14533.382,"text":"而烤雞制度某種層面來講它是一個不對等的權力結構基本上是主管向下評鑑所以如果你的上頭的長官掌握了烤雞的生殺大權的時候發生了這麼多奇奇怪怪的事情很多的基層公務員選擇沉默忍耐或者是逢迎拍馬其實大家就不那麼意外了以北分署霸凌事件為例這個謝宜榮面對部署"},{"start":14535.703,"end":14562.26,"text":"他本人的囂張跋扈那有直屬烤雞權的長官發展署署長蔡孟良對不對然後謝怡榮處理蔡孟良叫向上管理叫逢迎拍馬那當然嘛就航卸一氣然後讓真正基層那個最基層沒有辦法經營的被壓迫那常常會有這樣的一個狀況我講了這樣的一個事情你部長到目前為止你覺得烤雞會不會變相的成為公部門職場霸凌的這種幫兇或者是作案的工具"},{"start":14563.82,"end":14575.879,"text":"因為確實考機的制度其實是在這個公園考機法裡面那這部分其實是在考試院的主管之下那當然勞動部當然我們要"},{"start":14577.1,"end":14601.087,"text":"這樣我們也適用勞動部的公務員其實我們也當然適用考積法可是我其實並不敢說這個只要是打一等就一定是職場霸凌我沒有講說打一等是職場霸凌是說考積這件事情是讓很多基層公務員有冤屈不敢主動去講他變相成為了助長霸凌的一個催化劑一個因素"},{"start":14601.587,"end":14615.96,"text":"我的問題是這樣的所以其實我現在講的可能也不是只是公務員就是說其實業在很多職場都有相關的考級跟平和或平和的制度這是跟每一個事業單位他的管理的制度有關係"},{"start":14616.801,"end":14633.782,"text":"你回答問題就好了嘛就是說這件事情會不會間接的會去助長霸凌或者是讓受害人有志難生會不會嘛有沒有這樣的可能啦我覺得應該是要從怎麼保障受害的人他的發聲或申訴要完全的保證跟保護他的這個角度"},{"start":14634.102,"end":14652.834,"text":"但我不能說只要這樣講下去的話變成說只要有相關的管理制度上對下的管理制度都可能會變成間接因素這樣這個推論我覺得就會推太大會推太多了推太多了沒關係本期一週前我曾經請勞動部提供勞力發展署相關人的考積列表"},{"start":14653.955,"end":14667.201,"text":"結果勞動部是怎麼回應呢說這個是個人隱私我們還是別提供為好這個今天這件事情很有可能跟這802有間接相關所以說我認為這個是不單單只有隱私的問題部長你知道謝宜榮當2023的考金是什麼等級嗎你會不會好奇然後想去研究一下"},{"start":14672.642,"end":14701.991,"text":"我不知道但是因為確實烤雞真的是涉及個人隱私你是不知道還是不想知道不是我今天提了這個問題之後你會不會想要去了解一下你說謝宜榮嗎對我可以了解一下但是我剛剛回應的事情是說因為我原來跟我們索取這個烤雞的部分又是個資法嘛這個很常見沒關係因為這真的是涉及到這部分但我就想問部長你會不會想要去了解一下不管是謝宜榮也好蔡夢良也好他們這些人的烤雞是什麼狀況我可以來了解一下"},{"start":14702.951,"end":14732.291,"text":"我認為你應該了解因為2023年我實在是2023年除了這個事件發生就讓這個基層公務員痛不欲生之外這個2023年的離退人數還是往年的兩倍就各方各面來講頂頭長官在管理這個部位的時候管理這個單位的時候把他搞成這樣就我們看到的資訊從2023的年初開始確實離任跟退職的人數是增加的你今天還沒有了解我知道但是如果他這樣子的狀況還打夾等你覺得公平嗎"},{"start":14734.813,"end":14751.825,"text":"我們可能要來了解一下原因是什麼這就是本席為什麼今天講說為什麼我想要去了解我要去調這個考機的資料原因當然你今天可以講說因為個資的關係所以我們就不便提供一大堆這樣有的沒的但是他講的對不起但是我要問的就是你至少作為部長我希望你去了解一下這些"},{"start":14752.525,"end":14769.035,"text":"現在事後被認定成為霸凌的兇手這一群人他們的烤雞是什麼而且不只是他們的烤雞啊在這個就業安定基金的不當支出裡面鄭豐志主任的烤雞是什麼對不對人事調動率大幅上升人事室的烤雞是什麼我希望烤雞制度要回歸正常"},{"start":14769.375,"end":14793.598,"text":"因為公部門的文化其實大家都清楚有的是輪流啦有的是怎麼樣然後有些就被不當濫用這是機制要檢討當然也不是純粹就是你們勞動部要檢討因為你剛剛講嘛這是考試院主管這當然是另外一個層面的問題但我希望部長你在了解這樣的公部門霸凌案的時候除了這些機制的完善之外比如說保護吹哨者我不要讓他被清算這是你剛剛想要強調的重點這本席完全理解我自己覺得可能要從這個角度"},{"start":14794.138,"end":14822.61,"text":"我今天提這個質詢的用意就是提醒你啊考機很有可能是變相助長這件事情的幫兇請你針對勞動部其他部位我認為也一樣但今天是因為這是未還委員會的質詢嘛請你針對勞動部的這個考機的部分來做一個徹底的改革跟了解先了解會不會在明明施政荒鄉走板的情況下考機還是因為傳統也好或是因為奇怪的壓力或者是關係也好並沒有辦法如實顯現考機制度的功能"},{"start":14823.891,"end":14844.086,"text":"我當然希望考機跟他同仁失職的表現之間是有很明確的對應我給你一點時間但我希望你去了解之後你能夠有一個報告回復立法院一個報告這些人的考機狀況到底是怎麼樣你的這樣子的一個制度的方案有沒有改善跟精進的必要"},{"start":14844.206,"end":14866.281,"text":"我先來了解剛剛委員講的這幾位他的這個考積的狀況因為萬一這些人做了這麼誇張的事情還是打假等本席強烈主張你應該摧毀他們的年終獎金這樣這才是各個各個部門各個單位用強而有力的方式來整治這件事情才能彰顯政府打擊霸凌的決心啦好我給部長一點時間了解好不好麻煩部長儘速提供相關的資料回覆可以嗎謝謝好辛苦了謝謝謝謝林委員謝謝部長"},{"start":14869.958,"end":14881.303,"text":"來 我們跟大家委員會報告齁因為劉建國委員希望他質詢完再休息阿爸肚子餓的人先去便當吃沒關係來謝謝趙偉英明 趙偉辛苦我們先請來公布肚子餓的可以拿便當來吃啦沒有 可以用餐啦 可以用餐啦"},{"start":14897.779,"end":14913.966,"text":"我針對就只有那幾個而已嘛其他人不需要壓力那第一位就洪部長有請謝謝部長2024最後一天立法院三途通過就業扶法第46條然後80歲以上就免80亮表就可以聘僱這個外籍移工我們怎麼應應怎麼處理"},{"start":14918.413,"end":14941.532,"text":"我們會來跟衛福部一起來研商第一個我覺得最優先的事情怎麼來盡力的幫助重症的家庭然後要降低衝擊或怎麼讓他們聘僱的權利可以再更優先不要被搶攻的狀況之下反而逆向選擇的被犧牲所以你提到就是有搶攻的這樣的一個衝擊對不對然後可能會衝擊到更弱勢的然後可能他的身體的狀態"},{"start":14945.795,"end":14974.783,"text":"更加的嚴峻的需要有人專責照顧的情況之下這樣的一個情勢好像已經無法避免了我們非常非常擔心所以當時在修法前中華民國家庭照顧者官外總會還有包含這些身陷障礙者聯盟臺灣社會福利總盟都提出擔憂這樣讓完修法恐怕引起陳農部長所講的搶工潮然後都主張應該有相關配套所以這個配套要多久才可以做出來"},{"start":14976.617,"end":14990.392,"text":"不只這樣 我再講下去還有台灣的國際勞工協會桃園市家庭康復工職業公會及婦女薪資協會等團體他們都認為在沒有配套的情況下茂蘭修瓦只會惡化對於移工人權的侵害"},{"start":14991.838,"end":15004.148,"text":"這是為什麼我們其實在修法前一直很嚴肅的希望立法院可以在這個在這個事情上面多做一些專業的研議因為剛剛六位人講的其實這都是這方面的專業的組織專業的機構"},{"start":15006.772,"end":15022.479,"text":"那天希望說我還是有上台去在大體討論還有包含那個條文的花園我都有講啦我也希望說希望提案的委員還有包含支持這個80歲以上免八十兩表的各位同仁都可以在"},{"start":15023.199,"end":15047.366,"text":"細心的在慎重去思考一下這樣的衝擊台灣是一個講人權的國家當每年的這樣的需求已經供不應求的情況之下然後這樣造成這麼大的衝擊政府有沒有辦法第一個時間去做相關的因應反而不是現在在指責說這法通過之後你政府就必須要去承擔起來就馬上去做處理但是現在沒辦法"},{"start":15048.126,"end":15074.011,"text":"牧羽成舟嘛那牧羽成舟的時候可能你們要用最快速度來看要怎麼去做這樣因應嘛那我這邊提了幾個部分啦齁剛剛部長所講的搶工潮那移工到底會不會大量的轉移到健康的群組然後這個重度的重度伸張的弱勢群組的權利你們要如何去做保障這是第一件嘛齁然後再來國際上日本的日本的這個"},{"start":15074.904,"end":15100.476,"text":"薪資大約從4萬起跳了韓國是3萬多嘛韓國業其實也應該是超過4萬超過4萬那我們今年基本工資28590不到3萬但是我們的家庭看護公司不是用基本工資的所以他是在目前平均大概2萬2對啊就比這個更低啦即便用基本工資我們還是跟不上日本跟韓國我是用這樣的比喻嘛對不對好那怎麼辦"},{"start":15101.363,"end":15120.64,"text":"我們如何招募到有意願來到臺灣的這個工作的移工我們當然會跟外交部那一起來跟來源母國來協商有沒有可能可以增加供給可是這個增加供給的部分確實涉及到來源母國本身的量能尤其是他的訓練量能因為每一個要來到臺灣的"},{"start":15122.581,"end":15142.591,"text":"家庭看護工都要經過來源母國的訓練所以如果來源母國他的量沒辦法增加的話你硬要他把他的這個供給到台灣的量大幅增加的話他其實也會影響到他自己訓練的品質甚至有訓練品質下降的話也會影響到他來台灣的時候照顧我們這些需要照顧家庭的照顧品質"},{"start":15143.711,"end":15161.016,"text":"我知道現在已經沒辦法了我記得一年我們可以這幾年我們講五年就好了這幾年平均就是台灣有提出這個外籍看護工的需求差不多是多少然後我們可以引進多少進來我們目前每年競爭價大概是一萬二一萬三"},{"start":15162.697,"end":15176.829,"text":"這個是可以供給的增加的一萬二、一萬三其實跟委員說明其實現在當然就已經存在需求是大於可供給增加的數就已經呈現這狀況落差多少這個實質的數字"},{"start":15179.198,"end":15208.312,"text":"就是一年大致上有多少人提出要這個外企康復工的這樣的一個數額應該你們都有統計有掌握才對啊向委員報告那個每年新聘沒有來過台灣的家庭康復工一年大概有五萬那所以再加上淨增加至少要再增加一萬所以那加起來至少要有六萬每年要新移進那因為新法通過之後這個數字還要再往上再疊加對提加要加多少你們評估起來要加多少"},{"start":15209.494,"end":15226.182,"text":"跟個人說明現在我們大概在評估的方法是這樣因為我們如果以這些失能的失能的長者的狀況來看的話大概三成是用家庭看護工兩成是用長照加起來大概五成"},{"start":15227.523,"end":15250.999,"text":"所以如果我們這樣去評估的話我們認為這些可能相對健康的長者他可能的需求可能是在兩成到三成之間所以算起來變成是53萬人因為這一次的修法後等於會馬上開放53萬人53萬健康的長者有資格可以申請所以我們才會推估說那大概兩成到三成"},{"start":15251.9,"end":15279.815,"text":"的需求可能會 兩層到三層就十來萬到十六萬左右對 十來萬到十六萬那你原本就已經供不應求了你現在又多增加這樣十幾萬的需求那就是會搶供嘛對 所以就是我們現在擔心我們現在擔心的事情就是原本就已經緊繃而且本來就有一些重症的家庭他現在要找就難度就比較大或有點困擾了但在這個修法之後這個現象又會再更加劇對"},{"start":15282.047,"end":15301.008,"text":"對,那移工也會不會,他原本在這邊已經兩三年在顧好他應顧的這個僱主的情況之下,但是因為他顧的可能就,就是負了長照的這樣的需求者,長期身體心理自己沒辦法治理的,簡單講啦齁,然後他看到也健康有健康的,他能不能馬上去總管僱主?"},{"start":15302.613,"end":15328.927,"text":"基本上當然他會有些可能會要求轉換但是這個當然涉及到其實契約的部分所以這是為什麼我們說其實對這重症的家庭來說可能更不容易留住契約契約就可以保障他不去轉換雇主嗎他會不會有一些事情就有一些衝突就有一些怎麼樣的一個情況去掌握的情況他就要求轉換雇主那你又不得不讓他轉換這樣的事情你們評估過嗎"},{"start":15332.235,"end":15357.106,"text":"這有在我們的擔憂裡面我的時間有限啦部長我這邊有三個衝擊的評估報告我希望你們可能要很快的速度來做出來然後提交給委員會來做參考好不好123剛剛都特別提到了大山匯成這個樣子請部長一個星期可不可以這個也不能拖我們會很快來做可是一個星期真的很太短兩個星期"},{"start":15358.288,"end":15386.142,"text":"可不可以給我們一個月你的速度應該是兩個星期就OK了再加一個星期給你好不好可不可以給我們一個月好了一個月好請回好謝謝你要趕快應應的啦好不好我們其實會非常審慎的盡速來應應可是因為這涉及到跨部會對不起好請回啦來再一步我們有吳司長還有人事處的陳專委還有國簽署的薛專委請問這個司長今天有看過這個那我們稍微排這個主題嗎"},{"start":15387.788,"end":15412.874,"text":"有嘛你知道這一波的公部門霸凌案除了勞動部勞化署第二部門就是你們海洋國立海洋生物博物館對不對國際博物館好那我真的看你們報告看不出你們友善職場是在什麼地方我請教一下市長知道什麼叫員工協助方案嗎知道知道嗎對那你們怎麼編你清楚吧你說預算嗎對這個部分"},{"start":15415.573,"end":15434.844,"text":"預算你們人事處應該要非常清楚所以你們把人事處的陳專委找的是正確的這邊回覆委員因為我們那個就是有關員工學術方案我們教育部本身是每年都有編列相關的預算那預算差不多就是大概落在40到50萬中間是不是這樣你看一下這個明細表是不是這樣教育部50體育署14清華署4國家圖書館3國家教育研究院21萬對不對"},{"start":15444.076,"end":15448.265,"text":"我就不是要贅述了嘛 是不是這樣你們這一部所屬的相關的單位就是這麼編嗎"},{"start":15450.027,"end":15476.402,"text":"所屬單位的部分這邊我比較沒有辦法直接做確認那不過就是說因為基本上來講所謂那個就是有關員工協助方案的那個經費就是來自於就是說一方面就是編列相關的預算一方面就是在現有的預算裡面去做運資跟調配那這邊先跟委員做個說明謝謝好所以你沒把我掌握嘛那我就提醒市長跟你做參考你們花生霸凌的那個單位就是沒有編"},{"start":15478.206,"end":15487.553,"text":"你們不只那個單位叫國立海洋生物博物館沒有編你們還有一大堆都沒有編國監署國立自然科學博物館國立科學工藝博物館國立台灣圖書館當還十幾個單位"},{"start":15491.209,"end":15517.018,"text":"已經發生這樣的事情的你們在114年度的預算裡面竟然沒有呈現出來我兩年前從總統我到五院還有各部會我都特別要求如果你們員工協助方案沒有辦法編出來很抱歉在總預算最後協商過程裡面我會針對各個機關我會要求院長來做看怎麼處置我絕對不會不能夠去理解說教育部到現在還不曉得這個事情"},{"start":15518.584,"end":15541.476,"text":"我沒有辦法理解這邊跟委員做個說明就是說因為相關的預算就是說基本上來講確實就是說因為是由各單位來編列然後陳如委員所看到的就是說他們應該是說有關員工協助方案有些是有那個編列專款來運用有些是用自己單位內的業務費來使用倒不是說是沒有那如果說這些相關的資料所以你們還是在還是在兩年前三年前的那種模式有編就好不一定要呈現這個科目出來"},{"start":15547.859,"end":15557.283,"text":"所以藏在什麼地方,放在什麼地方,有編就好嘛,對不對?你問外務部跟勞動部,看他們敢不敢這樣編嘛,你自己問看嘛你自己問看嘛,你問司範醫,你去問行政醫,你去問你範醫看這樣編嗎?每逢你教學部這樣編就對了,最好教育示範"},{"start":15570.694,"end":15593.809,"text":"你今天在報告中還針對教師法33條均與建立教師諮商輔導支持體系大家針對教師啦專任的啦代理的啦公立幼兒園教保人員學校校長滿足教師抒壓減壓等等提升這個學生受教的品質那國教署有同仁了國教署不用編其他的這個管中心國家運動科學中心不用編"},{"start":15595.676,"end":15618.472,"text":"藝術 台灣藝術教育館不用編然後放在 散落到其他的科目裡面我們怎麼去檢視我們怎麼知道你對你的同仁一個人可以動用幾次然後每一個人 每一個同仁到底是多少的一個額度可以去做員工協助方案你跟我講啊你叫我怎麼看因為時間的問題"},{"start":15624.144,"end":15651.434,"text":"你可能沒辦法回答我嘛市長你是不是要帶回去跟部長講一下這事情在遇上協商的時候我絕對會處理我一定會出席好不好那我這邊特別拜託召委教育部這個報告可能要重寫吧一周內重新提交好謝謝請回最後一個請邱部長部長元旦第一天據媒體報導去年醫學中心疲倦的結果不知欲出為不預計近期公告這個報導確實吧"},{"start":15654.667,"end":15682.307,"text":"沒有錯吧已經在跑程序了已經在跑程序所以即將公告了對不對好但是每次提到醫學中心我本期都感到非常的難過如果依照這個分區的業務劃分部長可以看嗎這六區台北區最多的嘛13這個整體加起來其他五區加起來都還沒有台北區的大萬一台灣發生了重要狀況的時候是在北部可能醫學中心台北區的醫學中心都動盪不得的情況之下"},{"start":15683.308,"end":15699.849,"text":"重症及重症的人要怎麼處置這是一個資源分配的不當的情況史然然後我的母鄉雲林被劃在藍區那藍區兩個都在台南縣市然後對雲家家而言實在是"},{"start":15701.397,"end":15720.933,"text":"那種趕扣應該因為部長曾經到台大雲乳豐厭那個整個是基礎算是你打下來的你應該非常清楚整個車程、軸距、黃金治療救援時間基本上我們都要比人家長所以我們那個另外一面叫做黃金治療搶救時間我們就不叫黃金了,我們叫白銀了所以要怎麼處理要怎麼處理讓像賴總統所講的均衡嘛資源要均衡嘛"},{"start":15731.611,"end":15759.248,"text":"這個資源均衡的情況之下有沒有思考到我們台大雲林分院我們是兩個分院一個斗六一個湖北然後未來在已經有合定111億的機會給台大湖北分院來擴建現在是因為這個這個財政收支換物只管收不管吃會不會有相關的排擠會不會有所謂的延後那不管如何我們還是終極到努力一定在時間內要到位要讓它可以如期發包嘛"},{"start":15760.458,"end":15762.656,"text":"那雲林有沒有這個機會 台大印度分院"},{"start":15764.192,"end":15792.204,"text":"我想非常感謝劉委員過去對雲林的醫療資源真的是用盡了苦心那特別在台大雲林分院帶領之下所有的院所其實都增加了很多的醫療資源那台大雲林分院兩個從德六院區到湖北院區尤其是不管是在燙傷的加護病房也是劉委員爭取的那這個醫療大樓"},{"start":15793.604,"end":15815.687,"text":"也是爭取的,而且他旁邊還有一個高齡醫學...佛教席高齡醫學暨健康物質研究中心這個也是,這真的是...謝謝部長的肯定,還有惡劣啦齁這些整個來講,還有裡面的宿主,台大以前...台大分英文在比較早期的確是"},{"start":15817.088,"end":15846.024,"text":"人力比較不足現在的人力各方面都非常的充實所以真的是可以擔當引領的一個非常醫療的守護神謝謝部長感動了部長你可以看這個表格你看完之後我不曉得你會不會再感動全台醫學中心分布一個台北區一個台北區總統等於五區加起來都不及一個台北區因為過去的這種資源的分配已經出了很嚴重的問題"},{"start":15847.27,"end":15857.422,"text":"真的有勞你要當部長的時候可以快速的改善這樣的一個資源分配的不公平嘛台北區是13欸其他五區加起來是12欸這是很奇怪的分佈就對了我也不知道以前的補充到底是什麼做到這麼不讓人感動所以拜託國務隊你做來讓人感動一下好不好"},{"start":15869.395,"end":15890.711,"text":"這個是長久以來一直在台北區一直大掩蓋然後早期就一直通過醫學中心所以變成這樣子我們當然要顧及到其他醫學中心比較少的地方他們人民的一個"},{"start":15892.012,"end":15911.453,"text":"需求跟希望還有就是他們的服務員遼闊如果以原來的兩百萬一家的話其實當然這裡是也超過了早就超過了 早就超過了人口比例也都不應該是如此是不是說我們應該整體性來考量 當然我們在"},{"start":15913.494,"end":15938.312,"text":"醫院的評鑑制度的一個改革小組也是明年會開始來啟動但是醫學中心是四年評估一次評鑑一次立委也是四年選一次總統也是四年選一次但是沒有每一次都能夠選得上也不一定都一定可以連任所以我特別拜託部長我們沒有這麼多四年"},{"start":15939.71,"end":15967.144,"text":"是不是就趁這一次這個南區的雲林嘉義縣雲嘉嘉這三個縣市都沒有的到現在都沒有連一個準醫學中心都沒有所以賴總統講的均衡台灣拜託這一次我們就把它實際上應用吧讓醫學中心可以在南區裡面讓這三個縣市有一所醫學中心我想我這樣要求不為過"},{"start":15970.022,"end":15976.613,"text":"因為醫檢中心去年增加兩家那監察院又移植"},{"start":15979.264,"end":16002.367,"text":"他對那個地方在增加監察院有意見我們要鼓掌說肯定監察院啊但是對這個地方對藍區這個地方增加我想監察院不至於有什麼意見吧因為我們等太久了我們等了四年四年四年已經等了N年以上了嘛N次以上了代表部長好不好謝謝部長努力啦支持七月份的時候你有下去全台大的很多的朋友對你"},{"start":16003.735,"end":16016.423,"text":"抱著非常高的期待我也一樣 全雲林人 嘉義縣人 嘉義市人你也是自己人 拜託謝謝希望做出雲家家 你的故鄉的人有更多更大的感動謝謝部長 感動部長 部長感動謝謝"},{"start":17299.192,"end":17305.537,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會 變快一點啦來 繼續請黃國昌代主席謝謝主席 麻煩有請勞動部部長跟衛福部部長委員好"},{"start":17329.587,"end":17348.024,"text":"先請教拜登路部長,審計部給我的報告,初步第一階段的報告差五年的完整的報告還要再給他一段時間,初步的報告給我的是說就業安定基金遭到不當奴用的大概五千多萬,目前追討的計畫跟進度出來沒有?"},{"start":17349.226,"end":17371.541,"text":"跟黃委員報告我們在12月底的時候收到審計部的報告是給我們一個月的時間回覆是所以是跟審計部在回覆跟釐清之後所以跟同仁說了如果在釐清之後是確實查有不法是或確認名目不符的話當然該啟動法定的作業程序什麼是法定的作業程序跟大家說明一下"},{"start":17372.842,"end":17396.4,"text":"因為其實到時候會是審計部來判斷到底是要那審計部初步的判斷不是出來了嗎不是 這還沒有他現在給你回覆的機會嗎他現在是把他覺得需要說明的項目所以給你們一個月的時間說明 對那如果一個月以後的說明你們的說明沒有辦法說服審計部的話錢是審計部負責追討還是你們自己要去要回來"},{"start":17397.561,"end":17408.961,"text":"應該是有勞動部那勞動部到時候等到你們回覆審計部之後審計部再判定出來的結果以後就我們的立場很清楚"},{"start":17410.129,"end":17432.571,"text":"所有被不當農用的錢每一分每一毫全部都要追回來那現在在你們回復審計部的程序當中我們尊重那請部長做好準備下個會期因為這個會期顯然是來不及下個會期開議的第一件事情我們就要看到被認定"},{"start":17435.41,"end":17457.116,"text":"不當挪用的錢追討的計畫跟進度可以嗎跟黃委員說明齁就是就像我剛剛前面說的會有一個跟審議部確認的過程剛講過的話不要再重複浪費我的時間該要啟動法定要追回的程序的我們就會去做這件事情沒有關係啊因為齁我們立法部門在監督的時候不少有當過委員嘛"},{"start":17458.476,"end":17471.442,"text":"我們沒有辦法因為行政官員空洞的承諾就相信嘛所以我要有具體的東西嘛請你準備好 開議的時候這不是空洞的承諾開議的時候就會跟你要這個東西好 現在換衛福部部長"},{"start":17472.956,"end":17501.152,"text":"來不早上一次你們衛福部做那個霸凌報告說要帶來給我看我看了以後我直接跟部長報告四個字叫做慘不忍睹慘不忍睹你口中所講的最高規格的調查從報告的內容報告的格式報告的結論我再跟部長報告四個字慘不忍睹什麼最高規格的調查報告"},{"start":17502.373,"end":17526.553,"text":"附件的部分可能會涉及到當事人的程序我先不論啦我看完整份報告了以後我心裡只有一個狐疑啊這個是要去特定誰誰都沒辦法特定啊這個會洩什麼密什麼密也都不會洩漏啊我一會洩漏的秘密是什麼我跟部長報告我一會洩漏的秘密就是衛福部的調查報告竟然做的如此之爛"},{"start":17527.984,"end":17548.651,"text":"這是我的結論這是我的結論部長你可能不同意我的結論所有的外服部做出來的報告啊超高規格非常詳細句細米疑論證清楚利潤證據充足但我看完了以後就不是這個樣子啦所以我只有簡單一個問題電話報告要不要公開"},{"start":17553.109,"end":17574.722,"text":"附件不用調查報告要不要公開 給我yes or no的答案就可以了報告委員那個委員非常感謝您的我想您也在Connea那邊嘛對不對量化質化這邊大家相關都已經做過相關研究我們這個調查報告就是Base在這個方法上面是有量化也有質化的Base的方法非常的粗糙內容非常的爛請你真正的問題回答調查報告要不要公告主席請你制止他"},{"start":17580.868,"end":17590.537,"text":"我在問問題的時候可以不要插嘴是不是可以請主席清楚的告訴列席的行政官員在未來委員會尋答的規矩是什麼他講話的時候時間不算部長調查報告要不要公開 YES OR NO 給我一個答案"},{"start":17604.023,"end":17619.924,"text":"我想非常感謝黃委員的指教,那我們今天其實也見過了再度的早上討論,也透過了互代的結議針對我們現在的一個大家覺得有指教的地方,我們會去做檢討"},{"start":17624.505,"end":17642.317,"text":"所以又給你們兩個月做檢討喔沒有關係啦 衛華委員會這邊所做的決議我尊重衛華委員會委員的決議啊那我清楚的跟部長講行政調查報告不公開一定會反映在台灣民眾黨黨團預算提案上"},{"start":17644.83,"end":17668.826,"text":"我這樣講很清楚了啦調查報告不公開一定會反映在台灣民眾黨黨團預算審查預算審查的內容之上我很清楚的跟部長表達了這樣子清楚的訴求那一天你們的署長拿報告來給我看我老實講我看了快吐血我看了快吐血我直接問他一個最直接的問題"},{"start":17670.399,"end":17696.232,"text":"駐建方的部分有沒有深蹲執行官那天我在這邊問你你說你不是很清楚調查報告要看調查報告結果我看了調查報告一個字都沒提你們拿報告來給我看的同仁我請教他有沒有深蹲執行官這件事情他當場跟我回答是有那我的問題來了如果有為什麼調查報告半個字都沒有提"},{"start":17697.402,"end":17717.604,"text":"為什麼調查報告半個字都沒有提他跟我說啊這個齁是因為什麼後來才發現那不就符合您所講的如果有新事實新證據要重啟調查部長我有沒有講錯這個部分我們可以在下一次的報告裡面再來澄清再來釐清"},{"start":17719.893,"end":17736.472,"text":"就這個部分吼就這個部分第一個啦我還是跟部長勸告報告我看完了啦復健的部分不用公開沒有關係啊你那個報告給全民公平啊看我今天黃國昌在這邊質詢台上面講說那個報告爛的不得了"},{"start":17738.062,"end":17754.607,"text":"這樣的評價到底是公平還是不公平你如果覺得我講的不公平 你就公開嘛然後我們一般的公民看了以後說 衛福部的報告寫得這麼好這麼詳細 句細米疑還符合你們剛剛什麼量 量化 質化"},{"start":17756.703,"end":17784.447,"text":"講一堆黃國昌的質詢一點道理都沒有人家衛福部做得這麼棒你竟然說人家調查報告根本不能看受傷的會是我啦不會是衛福部啦所以我還是給部長啊你回去慎重考慮啊看調查報告要不要公開我跟你保證啊你念完了以後不會有什麼個資被洩漏不會有什麼秘密被洩漏唯一會被洩漏的秘密啊"},{"start":17785.663,"end":17805.453,"text":"就是為什麼衛福部做的這個調查報告品質如此粗糙第二個事情有專業團體來跟我陳情他們陳情是什麼來來來部長這兩個英文名詞是什麼意思你知不知道我沒有要考你英文啦但是你應該很清楚你做過醫生"},{"start":17810.665,"end":17827.717,"text":"謝委員,跟我補充一下,不算是也沒關係我們已經按照兩個禮拜前的衛環的決議,已經是所有的衛環的委員我們都有過去跟他們報告,我們都有經過這樣的過程"},{"start":17841.265,"end":17859.049,"text":"這個比較一個是在technician的部分那一個可能會比較有一些多一點那個工作的內容那可能有一點點超越optician的那種工作內容這樣子"},{"start":17862.191,"end":17877.837,"text":"以這個之意我老實跟你講你應該很熟所以我才一開始說我就沒有要考你英文啦這個是煙光師啦他們來的陳情啦他們說國際社會上基本上都是用什麼都是用automatrists用這個詞那但是什麼啊但是"},{"start":17883.362,"end":17907.234,"text":"把其他國家都翻譯出來了但是你們衛福部我覺得是不是因為眼科醫師有壓力所以你們一直在英文的名稱上就只願意用optician不願意用optometrist他們要的是前面這個那為什麼他們要前面這個我後來仔細的看人家的訴求也合理其他國家全部都是用這個"},{"start":17908.427,"end":17932.961,"text":"那結果只有我們的什麼驗光能源法在驗光能源法裡面的驗光師用aptition但是我進一步的去看說你們自己衛福部的統計年報也不是用aptition啊還是用optometrist的這個詞我們的總統、副總統給人家的賀電也是用optometrist"},{"start":17933.661,"end":17946.832,"text":"那我就覺得很奇怪人家現在因為這個英文訴求的事情跟整個國際上面的交流都產生了障礙這個事情應該他們都有跟衛福部澄清嘛"},{"start":17947.711,"end":17972.313,"text":"那你是有眼科醫師的壓力是嗎沒有我們完全沒有因為我當維護部以後才注意到這個現在這個事情有結論了嗎還是要再研議完全在專業他們1月3號我好容易溝通他們1月3號眼科醫學會跟燕光師大家坐下來談嗎坐下來談在中興醫院坐下來因為2019年在過那個燕光師法的時候那是我第一次在立法院"},{"start":17973.274,"end":17986.899,"text":"眼科醫師有眼科醫師的看法然後驗光師有他們的看法那個時候我還記得青島東路的時候來了一大堆非常年輕的那個驗光師還有相關科系的學生來陳情"},{"start":17988.76,"end":18008.213,"text":"那個時候我們大家都有去去聲援他們的訴求那眼科醫師的考慮我們了解如果牽涉到醫療專業那當然是眼科醫師的專業範圍嘛那但是有關於眼光師他們所提出來的訴求看其他國家所用的英文專業名詞看起來也沒有不當"},{"start":18009.293,"end":18032.764,"text":"我們自己的總統 副總統都這樣發賀電給人家了你總不要說要搞到好像蔡英文跟賴清德發賀電給人家說一套自己背地裡面又幹另外一套這樣子不好啦這樣不好啦 我希望123號的時候我們希望兩兆能夠真的取得一個比較好的專業我希望不只要發揮你調和定賴調和定賴"},{"start":18038.456,"end":18064.901,"text":"好該怎麼講全力以赴全力以赴調和敵人的功力啦讓兩邊的專業團體不要這樣子出現了一些我覺得啦是沒有太必要的爭執眼科醫師當然是眼科醫師嘛驗光師就是驗光師嘛也不會有人把這兩件事情牽涉到業務是啦但是業務的分配其實是在中文的法規去做分配嘛"},{"start":18065.501,"end":18083.016,"text":"不會有人用那個英文單字來決定業務要怎麼分配啦我們在相關的法規裡面 醫事法規裡面什麼事情燕光是可以幹什麼事情只有眼科醫師可以幹 中文法規很清楚不要為了一個英文的單字不要為了英文的單字搞成這個樣子好 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長那繼續我們請陳冠廷委員質詢"},{"start":18101.765,"end":18102.87,"text":"所詮好我們請衛福部部長"},{"start":18111.536,"end":18134.487,"text":"委員好部長好部長好我現在是要針對新的這個財化法它之後可能會影響到我們衛福部的哪一些的影響預算等等因為2024年底的時候我們嘉義縣主旗下一個非常重要的跟衛福相關跟老人長照相關的建設就是我們台中龍塚灣橋分院鹿滿長照中心那它是動土典禮"},{"start":18135.387,"end":18152.128,"text":"那這是一座由衛福部跟退福會合作興建的住宿型長照機構那你知道這個地方這個衛福部是負擔大概幾成嗎我跟部長說八成那退福會是負擔兩成"},{"start":18153.69,"end":18166.793,"text":"所以對我們嘉義人來說這個能夠照顧我們這個老年人能夠照顧我們銀髮族的重要的長照機構幾乎有10成都是由中央所挹注的"},{"start":18167.796,"end":18188.727,"text":"那我們不斷來講說財化法的影響如何如何地方可以增加多少錢但是對於我們嘉義這樣的偏鄉來說由中央挹注經費直接把所有縣市裡面最需要的做調配是非常重要的我現在只是拿竹崎當一個例子第二個例子也是在嘉義縣中埔鄉有一個中埔榮興多功能社區式照顧園區"},{"start":18190.731,"end":18206.022,"text":"你知道我們跟衛福部爭取多少經費嗎四千多萬那四千多萬裡面已經接近九成的經費所以我再次在跟所有的民眾還有我們每一個關心我們財政劃分跟我們長照衛福的人來說"},{"start":18207.867,"end":18234.369,"text":"中央作為一個整體性的評估對最需要資源分配來去給予分配的是一個非常重要非常重要的一個做法所以一直以來有人說地方會因為財務法之後增加多少錢但是他們可能沒有想過在許多的重要的案子上面特別跟我們最弱勢的縣市跟最弱勢的族群來講的話"},{"start":18235.33,"end":18253.702,"text":"中央的藝術是極端重要的所以我現在想請教部長財務法通過之後會不會未來影響到這樣子的做法地方上面的規劃會不會受到影響如果有該怎麼辦才可以亡羊扑林一定有影響因為一個政策的擬定其實都要經過整個"},{"start":18255.383,"end":18282.713,"text":"國家級的一個很多整體的考量然後研究一個結果Evidence based來制定政策 健康政策那我想特別感謝陳委員在嘉義縣關心這些老人的照顧特別的地鐵 電波這兩個地方都很需要這個建設的這是怎麼來的 這一定是中央去評估整體評估 把資源用在刀口上這每一個決策"},{"start":18283.908,"end":18308.527,"text":"都是後面有多少專家做健康的評估數據怎麼樣做整個全國的醫療平權當然哪個地方需要我們就去補他我想這樣的一個佈置會比較周全性也會讓全國的人民得到更好的照顧所以剛剛委員爭取的這兩個地方真的是非常的to the point"},{"start":18309.758,"end":18313.683,"text":"這就是中央有這個領域來整個來評估評估來做這個事情所以未來如果中央這個經費比較少的時候我們是不可以落實"},{"start":18320.56,"end":18349.306,"text":"我們由國家的一個政策來佈置這個部分可能的確會受到影響那地方上我們也期待地方上能夠播出如果已經裁劃法過了就是播出應該能夠播出這樣的那個地方來補助地方但是這樣的一個比較可能從我們的立場來講會比較零散比較沒有辦法由中央來佈置讓在醫療的評審上面可能會比較需要擔心"},{"start":18350.371,"end":18368.519,"text":"謝謝部長那我最後在因為時間已經到但是我最後再補充對於國家的整體的重視的政策我們最重要是長照政策那一個縣市他能夠規劃的通常就是區域性的那他可能沒有辦法吸引到全國的最多的人才"},{"start":18369.36,"end":18383.616,"text":"來進入到最需要偏向的地方所以為什麼說中央的資源很重要就是因為它至少可以做一些分配上面來去彌補一個縣市可能沒有辦法獨自完成不可以自己完成的這些計畫所以這一次的財化法"},{"start":18383.956,"end":18409.254,"text":"他這個通過以後那對於地方的影響當然是甚大那我還是希望說至少在我能力的範圍內我一樣還是會盡量跟中央來全力爭取那現在我還是再跟大家報告一下跟所有的民眾也要講一下說國家的預算就是這麼多當你多出去一部分給地方那地方政府也要付出他相應的責任那我相信我們縣府一定會全力在照護老人的部分但是其他縣市"},{"start":18409.974,"end":18431.047,"text":"如果他把這個照護這個我們老闆都要補婚來去分到其他的地方的話那可能就會影響我們希望說公共建設的費用放在公共建設老人福利的費用放在老人福利不要最後拿到經費放在放煙火或者是其他作為這種喜慶上面的節慶式上面的應用這樣就比較不好好謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝部長那繼續我們請林黛華委員質詢"},{"start":18457.441,"end":18458.228,"text":"好有請邱部長"},{"start":18463.854,"end":18487.912,"text":"部長本席針對要爭取高頻膨第四座的醫療中心提升極重難悍的這個醫療量能那本席有幾個議題從人口分布來看南北醫療不均從地理分布看就醫資源不均從區域發展看醫療研究的需求從醫護培訓看醫療中心的必要進而在檢討你這個醫院"},{"start":18490.755,"end":18502.165,"text":"評鑑程序的過時性最後有本席的建議好從這個人口比例這個不能抖好從人口比例來看南北醫療不均從北部醫療中心超限成長被這個這個監察院糾正"},{"start":18506.63,"end":18523.051,"text":"衛福部明訂了台北區的上限為8家2024的時候憑藉你們超額甄列雙核醫院跟台北慈濟醫院使國內的醫療醫學中心更集中到台北地區光是看到這個我就覺得非常荒謬荒謬是糾正的時候你們做什麼"},{"start":18523.857,"end":18546.273,"text":"你們竟然還是 你應該撤銷啊但是你們沒有做 那表示人家要廢監察院監察院的糾正等於廢紙一張連參考的價值都沒有你衛福部做了什麼 什麼糾正 沒有啊就你們都怕得要命 說我怕為他監察院糾正結果你做了什麼 改善作為 沒有所以監察院被廢 被廢掉 差不多而已啦"},{"start":18547.674,"end":18570.581,"text":"糾正沒意義嘛 你該廢掉這兩個啊好 以醫院的這個評鑑的分區台北市每75.2萬人就有一間醫學中心如果我擴大台北市之外的這個北區桃竹苗則是9 稍微增加一下每90.1 95.1萬人有一間醫學中心那我高屏鵬 高雄加屏東喔"},{"start":18573.783,"end":18594.761,"text":"這個121.3萬才有一間醫學中心等同我每家的高頻醫學中心是要服務121萬人負擔是台北區的1.6萬倍人均享有醫療資源的品質是顯然不均的醫療中心過度集中中北部不僅擴大了南北醫療不均也讓新增的醫學中心與現有的醫療單位爭取在為數有限的醫護能力"},{"start":18599.045,"end":18622.324,"text":"影響我這個高屏地區的民眾醫療的品質而且這句話我一定要為高雄人講話高雄市民的平均移民才多少六度最低耶醫療資源平均的不平均已經造成我南部醫護工作負擔衛福部你必須重視這才是剛起點而已好那個下一頁你這個不能運作主席不好意思"},{"start":18627.765,"end":18628.974,"text":"那個停止一下好不好"},{"start":18632.826,"end":18660.455,"text":"我們來看地理分佈來看這個就醫資源從桃竹苗圍北區的範圍今年的台大醫院的新竹分院甄列為醫學中心使全國的醫學中心在2024年突破為到22家其中一半以上22的一半就是11家11家12家全部都在北區跟台北區濁水西以南的醫學中心多少台南加高雄5家"},{"start":18661.704,"end":18673.978,"text":"好從地理面積高屏篷的面積是5931.86平方公里這個數字可以放過但是這個數字部長你看清楚我一枚高屏篷我還把蓬勃拉進來1977平方公里才有一間"},{"start":18677.822,"end":18706.641,"text":"醫學中心喔 台北市加新北喔它是平均每151公里就有一間的醫學中心喔你看光是就醫的便利性我高屏龍真的不是說小孩子可以來開水啊好 高屏龍跟雙北區的相比每平方公里所擁有的醫學中心的資源我們差這個跟台北啊我們差了13倍啊凸顯兩地的就醫資源的不均啊"},{"start":18708.322,"end":18731.588,"text":"再來我們看這個區域分布看醫療研究的需求醫學中心最適合發展智慧醫療因此有足夠的援援人員足夠多的臨床案例足夠大的社會聲譽與資通訊業者來合作今年5月你們這個由台灣智慧醫療聯盟建立的醫學中心的AI國家隊成員不好意思又在中北部的醫學中心了"},{"start":18732.148,"end":18756.401,"text":"南部未來需要更多的場域才能有更多的研究量能賴總統提出了健康台灣的願景要強化醫療跟照護行政院要推動大南方的新矽谷計畫將在南部包括高頻縣市運用AI發展的健康照護跟智慧醫療因此在高頻棚有必要設置第四個醫學中心才能落實區域平衡接軌總統的產業政策"},{"start":18758.422,"end":18776.287,"text":"好 今天高屏空的醫學中心集中在高雄的西部所以在北高雄東高雄北屏東我總共十個行政區將近百萬人口我們是沒有醫學中心的耶我們的急重難 喊四大病症的醫療也需要提升吧好來 夏業這個不好意思 這個好 我們來看這個"},{"start":18785.991,"end":18802.272,"text":"醫療培訓來看醫療中心的必要根據衛生部的醫學中心任務指標你看清楚喔講得多好聽啊這是看在我男部人的眼裡啊我真的是在吞不下這口氣了提升資源不足的地方的醫療水準提升資源不足喔"},{"start":18802.873,"end":18809.677,"text":"高平衡明顯是醫療資源不足的還強調這個醫學中心要帶動跟輔導區域內的醫療機構投入研究跟創新來培育醫事人員這是你們的指標我們看整個大南方六縣市雖然半導體跟AI的聚落但在區域的醫療資源卻是南北差異"},{"start":18823.846,"end":18847.171,"text":"隨著科技人才移民南部以及高雄逐漸成為物流人流金流中心高屏區有必要設置第四個醫學中心才能吸引醫療跟生技人才經過地方發展跟醫療服務好根據醫師公會全聯會的統計喔台北市是每平方公里就有多少個醫生41.82新北市不好意思3位"},{"start":18848.231,"end":18854.936,"text":"我高雄更差每平方公里只有2.35位醫生屏東我們昭緯的更慘0.82位每平方公里只有0.82位醫生喔好我不是我我除了用面積我看人均台北市每1萬人就有43.67位的醫師喔我高雄每1萬人才有25.11位醫生屏東的每1萬人昭緯這個主席你看一下屏東啊1萬人才有14.51個醫師啊"},{"start":18878.251,"end":18892.667,"text":"中央應透過增額醫學中心強化我高頻繃的醫護的培訓的能量好 最後我們來看你這個醫院評鑑程序的過時性寫好一點叫過時性啦對本席來講叫荒謬性醫學中心的數量不應該"},{"start":18893.568,"end":18919.025,"text":"應該從人口數來考量從地理的分佈區域發展醫護的培訓的需求也應該一併考量好你們根據112年的醫院評鑑跟教學醫院的評鑑每200萬人口的評鑑一家醫學中心好按照你們這個標準台北區韓新北總人口數是752萬按照每200萬有一間你只能有3.76間的醫學中心你們搞到現在10間你們公然違法"},{"start":18922.427,"end":18928.69,"text":"然後平均呢還平均75.5萬人才有一間醫學中心你們規定是多少兩百萬人才能夠有一間你們擴增到這種地步現在是衛福部是太上皇了沒有在照規定了好再來你的醫學評鑑程序的附件六請部長拿起來看你們訂出了一級醫療區域醫學中心全國的上限是多少家"},{"start":18950.06,"end":18969.774,"text":"20家 好 我們就不要看全國上限齁 其中全國 是全國 北中南東喔才20家 你看你們現在暴增多家台北區就8家 高屏區3家事實上 台北區目前已經達到10家這個上限沒有法源 沒有依據而衛福部還可以在評鑑後 僅以"},{"start":18971.195,"end":18985.426,"text":"分數接近為由 自行在雙北增加遭到監察院檢舉之後傷害評鑑的公信力醫院評鑑的程序對於醫學中心數量的評定標準是過時的過時的辦法不僅未能考慮區域醫療均衡發展"},{"start":18989.389,"end":19010.395,"text":"且成為監委糾正的理由衛福部有必要檢討過時作業的程序納入更公允的指標好本席有建議好來本席的建議請這個你們在現在啊針對高頻膨的這個應該要針對第四間的醫療中心而且再請衛福部就針對人口地理面積國家發展的計畫"},{"start":19012.375,"end":19026.25,"text":"提升資源不足的地方的醫療目標考慮東高雄北高雄北平東等地的民眾需求提升該區域的這個醫療中心那針對這一次的本席的這個質詢我不曉得您有什麼看法"},{"start":19028.868,"end":19047.661,"text":"非常敬佩我們立委員提出這麼完整的我高雄人啊我南台灣人啊真的非常敬佩我們站在均衡台灣跟醫療平衡前的立場上當然資源不足的地方我們要優先去補然後針對你們現在即將公佈的醫學中心醫療中心也要怎麼處理一樣啦那整個高屏看起來是如果剛剛委員分析的其實是"},{"start":19059.228,"end":19085.268,"text":"真的是不分析不知道一分析我都要跟你革命了一分析我都要跟你革命了所以我這邊先具體要求你們現在要公佈的高屏篷的第四間我是不能接受你們說你們再來納入研究然後我下一次我們基於要不要有第四間我下一次再處理我告訴你本席我是不能接受這件事情的"},{"start":19086.908,"end":19101.151,"text":"所以你現在要暫停你們現在的整個評鑑的所有的作業分數到這邊你不能給我公佈你們要從該很公允的去看我的區域的平衡如果你跟我講說你現在要公佈啊然後呢這個我的這個區域均衡的醫療的醫療權來講你要下次再檢討 我跟你拚得"},{"start":19108.733,"end":19117.877,"text":"我站在高雄的人 我把你扔掉所以你要暫停你現在的評鑑的一個發布的程序那部長你要怎麼做 請回答"},{"start":19120.56,"end":19141.449,"text":"你們現在已經快公佈了嘛144已經有了嘛那你的公佈程序是什麼包括你看到本席的這樣的一個這麼明確我全部數字說話喔那你是不是應該暫停然後納入檢討之後你再去做到底全國應該要多少間的醫療中心那你再去做這個之後的公佈呢"},{"start":19143.117,"end":19152.758,"text":"我們一定會審慎評估好 審慎評估審慎評估要多久你要多久才檢討完然後多久要公布這兩個議題你可以把它掛鉤處理"},{"start":19154.349,"end":19173.261,"text":"你什麼時候公布你現在這一批的評鑑要不要有增列是不是有這個增列的這個醫療中心高雄好了高屏鵬你這一邊你要不要增加第四間的醫療中心這件事情你什麼時候要評估完成然後第二個你什麼時候要公布這一批次的這個醫療中心部長我們希望"},{"start":19178.854,"end":19205.402,"text":"能夠兩個禮拜之內把您委員提的這些建議那好好的來延期那因為這個公布也不能太也不能太慢啦因為所有這次接受評鑑的都在因應期盼嘛那那個也比較不管是在衛福部或健保署都有後續相關的作業要做所以時間也不能太久我們希望"},{"start":19207.628,"end":19210.455,"text":"你要介紹兩個禮拜這樣的一個評鑑標準是嗎部長評鑑標準其實已經"},{"start":19216.192,"end":19235.722,"text":"已經都已經本來就公告了平間標準有問題啊你要不要回覆到我的上一頁第七頁你說你們的多荒謬來看到第七頁部長你不覺得這樣的平間標準已經是很荒謬的事情嗎你們公然違法你們沒有法也沒有依據作業程序你自己說結果你又沒有按照自己講的這個內規執行你覺得這樣可以嗎"},{"start":19239.741,"end":19252.464,"text":"每200萬人得評一家醫學中心然後你的大台北 台北區 韓新北你已經10間了原則上你只能3.76間的醫學中心那我是不是應該撤掉"},{"start":19253.959,"end":19268.023,"text":"如果按照你這個標準都要撤掉啊還是你要重新的盤點你應該檢討你的這個作業你這兩個禮拜要應該重新檢討你的醫院這個醫院評鑑及醫教學醫院的評鑑的作業程序的這個作業標準"},{"start":19270.824,"end":19282.349,"text":"你兩個禮拜應該要檢討這件事情好 我們要檢討好 那這兩個禮拜之後 你再想說好 你要怎麼的去公布你這一批的這個醫學中心 好嗎好的 謝謝部長 謝謝也謝謝主席 給我這個為南台灣發聲 謝謝主席哇 林大華太棒了謝謝部長 接下來我們請王振旭委員質詢"},{"start":19302.247,"end":19304.63,"text":"好謝謝主席啊我們還是請邱部長"},{"start":19312.85,"end":19341.969,"text":"委員好部長好謝謝今天我們這個召委鐵漢柔情啊這麼高興安排今天的題目我相信透過早上那麼多的委員的質詢也了解很多的事情真的要存償記憶的同時也應該有更好的方法或者是策略或者是步驟來解決目前面臨的一些困境不過一開始的時候我還是跟部長請教一下"},{"start":19343.931,"end":19365.182,"text":"才化法以後造成一些問題那其次也希望針對兒童健康的研究希望能夠為了未來不管是在施肢或者是在人力或者是在如何能夠保護兒童健康的部分有更好的發展那最後再來談一下這個公益私立醫院這些友善資產的建構的部分"},{"start":19367.924,"end":19394.862,"text":"我想財務法在最近通過以後雖然還沒有送出立法院可是造成的影響大家也討論的非常非常的多針對於我們在衛福部裡面看到的衝擊部長也有受訪過也提出了一些相關的觀點跟看法這邊也列出了當初部長所擔心的財務法通過以後他可能因為造成的這種衝擊"},{"start":19396.963,"end":19418.794,"text":"我們也了解28%的金額其實是非常非常的可觀那有包括兒童照顧不孕症補助等等包括第六項的社安網的部件範圍非常的廣那這部分不知道部長可不可以利用這個機會也再做一些說明讓大家可以更了解未來"},{"start":19419.754,"end":19434.019,"text":"如何因應才能通過以後這個六項當初所認定可能衝擊蠻大的這個部分利用這個機會讓部長能夠把它具體的說明清楚一點謝謝王委員"},{"start":19435.799,"end":19459.726,"text":"你看在你隨行的當中,很多部門都上來,表示都有影響當然從我們開始在健保的挹注方面,其實我們有很多公務在幫忙,預算在幫忙健保如果這個部分,平均起來大概整個預算會少20%都可能要刪28%"},{"start":19462.059,"end":19486.75,"text":"那所以這樣來看不管是健保的挹注不管是國健署的相關的不管是癌症防治法然後成人預防保健甚至少子女化的對策人工生殖方面補治方面其實在國健署也有影響那在那個我們的社福方面那當然"},{"start":19487.47,"end":19502.987,"text":"社安網第二期大概也會影響身心障礙照顧服務的部件總體收入、裝假牙等等等等還有應用高齡社會對策大概都單單政府方面大概就會少了107億"},{"start":19505.51,"end":19521.697,"text":"所以這樣的情況我們當然會希望爭取政府能夠繼續來支援這些民眾非常重要的事情但是如果財化法以後變成三千多億"},{"start":19522.877,"end":19536.339,"text":"混到地方區的時候那這個部分是我們比較擔心到時候在資源的爭取上面要怎麼樣來來爭取這樣子我現在這個是東央跟地方必須要同步共同來討論跟解決"},{"start":19538.041,"end":19553.617,"text":"就是有了好的這個裁員的同時也希望能夠把事情的分擔作為更合理的分配那這部分就麻煩未來面對這六大衝擊有關於衛福部的相關業務也希望部長能夠提早來應應"},{"start":19555.739,"end":19577.33,"text":"這是第一部分第二部分其實接著我們想要了解的就是長照3.0即將在今年度編的預算是921億要來做這個相關的醫療跟長照的銜接那這個銜接的部分我們很擔心今年能夠編這樣的費用再過來裁員的部分"},{"start":19580.912,"end":19605.79,"text":"相較之下這個裁判法通過以後可能造成的衝擊未來是保險制好呢還是賦稅制比較有機會能夠持續的永續經營等等的問題真的也非常非常的需要衛福部這邊提早來規劃那不知道目前有沒有想法或者是初步的規劃的方向好 謝謝王委員我想在長照2.0邁向3.0當中"},{"start":19608.373,"end":19623.573,"text":"我們基本上服務的長照人數多了好幾倍以我們現在去年的收入大概有1200多億所以大概產業是相當的目前是相當的穩定的那所以未來要"},{"start":19624.514,"end":19640.206,"text":"走向哪一個制度,當然大家都可以柴岩怎麼來,大家都可以來更加的討論以更穩定柴岩,我想這個長照是長久需要的我們的社府專家李次,有沒有什麼補充?"},{"start":19642.208,"end":19657.707,"text":"非常感謝黃正修委員對我們這個問題的關心我想其實我們現在目前我們現在目前當然是稅收那我也跟委員報告我們現在目前其實就整個政府現在目前的財源老實說長照基金的部分其實事實上是穩定在成長"},{"start":19658.348,"end":19678.405,"text":"我們現在目前是不是沒有問題那當然就是說確實這兩種財務的處理方式我想都是各有利弊但是不管怎麼樣我想從過去蔡英文總統到賴清德總統最重要的一個事情就是說我們一定要讓我們的整個資源布置資源的這個部件必須是平均"},{"start":19679.025,"end":19698.224,"text":"而且是讓每一個人每一個國民都能夠享有應該有的服務的服務我舉一個最簡單的例子我們長照我們的健保1994年通過之前事實上也運用了大概快十幾年那時候部長還有您基本上還有看總召我們當時醫療網計畫都是在布建你不能夠你為了辦保險而辦保險你辦了保險"},{"start":19700.826,"end":19727.458,"text":"結果偏鄉卻沒有服務我想這個是這是不對的所以現在目前最重要還是資源部件而我們現在目前政府從2.0到3.0全部都是在全部在衝整個資源部件包括我想大家有非常關心的重症的部分那我跟委員報告兩個重點第一個我們現在目前的財源基本上是無餘另外第二個我們現在目前最重要重點應該是還是服務部件而且讓民眾找得到用得到看得到我想這是最重要的一個整個方式謝謝"},{"start":19728.069,"end":19753.421,"text":"好謝謝因為我們知道這個進入到這個超高齡社會以後相信這方面的需求會越來越多那再過來關心到的就是兒童剛剛我們關心的是私能的長者或者是需要做這份服務的長者那現在我們也了解兒童健康的是國家非常重要必須要積極來投入的因為我們少子化影響之下"},{"start":19754.301,"end":19772.657,"text":"如何能夠讓這些兒童都能夠順利的健康成長那這邊有訂了一個硬指標硬指標就是兒童死亡率要從千分之五點三下降到四點零的千分之四點零那這個是一個很需要大家一起來努力的部分"},{"start":19774.199,"end":19788.594,"text":"賴總統他對大家的期許也非常的高那我們也知道其實目前面臨的困境很多的同時那台大而一他們很希望能夠有更多的資源的投入也希望能夠透過研究"},{"start":19789.255,"end":19818.169,"text":"包括成立兒童健康研究中心來讓這樣的研究成果可以反映到實習的照顧的部分那這一邊當然就會牽扯到教育部牽扯到衛福部所以目前有沒有適當的規劃或者是目前除了教育部已經核可的這個兒醫的兒童健康研究中心的同時那未來有沒有機會讓它變成是一個重要的發展的方向"},{"start":19819.881,"end":19839.558,"text":"好 謝謝王委員 這個大概會兩方面來談來報告第一個就是說兒童醫療是我們要重視的那所以在優化兒童醫療計畫裡面其實在台灣有大概幾乎所有的醫學中心裡面都有成立"},{"start":19840.943,"end":19859.023,"text":"等於是一個燈塔 等於是一個中心然後去建置所有的RE的不管是網絡 然後提升醫療品質特別是補充不足的 不管是急重症方面的那這個部分其實這幾天來也效果不錯"},{"start":19859.804,"end":19886.529,"text":"那我們都知道我們在教學醫院裡面除了直接臨床的工作以外一定都要加上研究所以他在臨床加上研究的部分是可以在這個優化兒童醫療計畫裡面去做那我們如果要獨立成立一個兒童健康研究中心這就是專門要來做研究的今天當然行政院教育部合可"},{"start":19887.729,"end":19906.53,"text":"將支援部分經費那送到行政院那這個部分基本上如果是以研究方面應該是由國科會在主責因為衛福部的不管是醫事室或相關的單位基本上都是以醫療服務為重但是我們所以非常樂觀其成那畢竟"},{"start":19908.209,"end":19923.902,"text":"兒童的一個每一個兒童都是保他即使有罕見疾病有任何的疾病我們都應該來研究而且我們也知道像不管是籠總或很多醫院他們的罕病的那種研究是非常的國際級的"},{"start":19925.963,"end":19943.649,"text":"所以這個部分都是希望能夠透過這些研究來蒐集大數據如果能夠讓台灣的兒童能夠順利的成長對 因為我也知道這些臨床團隊在請研究的人其實都是自己在想辦法也很辛苦那因為台大所以應該給予更多的資助因為吳院長也在現場"},{"start":19946.011,"end":19958.862,"text":"因為這些兒童醫院跟台大醫院不知道在歷史上有沒有關聯性那不曉得吳院長這邊有沒有什麼要再做補充我們院方事實上是很支持他們"},{"start":19965.809,"end":19991.049,"text":"設立這樣的研究中心而且我們用方一年給兒醫的事實上的補助其實是蠻多的因為我們都同意說沒有兒童就沒有未來那包括最近兒醫的人才其實全台灣都是不足現在那個假如政府給100個可能小兒科醫師可能照不到50個這已經是現在式"},{"start":19992.91,"end":20009.56,"text":"所以我們很期待包括教育部 衛護部當然台大醫院也都能夠順利的來讓這個兒童健康研究中心就是如果是台大有成立的話那變成是一個社會方面的領頭羊對於未來整個台灣兒童的照顧有更大的幫助"},{"start":20010.46,"end":20026.238,"text":"那最後就是要跟部長請教有關你這個公立教學醫院面臨的這些性別平等如何做有效的機制的整合我想今天的主要大家關心的部分都很聚焦在這個地方"},{"start":20026.758,"end":20054.799,"text":"那我們知道公立醫院尤其是教學醫院的醫師他同時擔任的教學研究還有服務三個重要的這些需求那在這個部分呢就會相對比較複雜如果一位醫師他同時擔任公務員的身份那他在這個過程裡面可能會造成對象的影響包括公務人員勞工病患學生和廠商等等"},{"start":20055.799,"end":20080.387,"text":"這個如何能夠讓他整合不同的這個受害對象的性平事件來進行調查跟救濟其實今天早上討論非常非常的多那甚至對於如果確立以後往後的這些相關的懲處措施的法源整合大家也都有不同的想法跟不同的法源依據那我們現在比較想要瞭解的就是那針對於"},{"start":20081.647,"end":20095.92,"text":"以這個西縣的教授所造成的這個影響他如果本身或者是相對未來的個案又可能是類似的背景的話那這個院長啊或者是台大"},{"start":20096.981,"end":20114.813,"text":"萬一又發生在剛剛所提到的台大的校園或者是醫院裡面那如何能夠讓在處理的時候可以是能夠用統合式的方式而不是說出現一個事件然後一個單位去進行調查"},{"start":20115.954,"end":20129.498,"text":"後來才發現原來一開始就應該要來統合式的整理那這部分不知道包括吳院長或者是王祖密這邊能不能提供相關的意見給未來做參考好請謝謝委員其實"},{"start":20135.81,"end":20158.18,"text":"我在醫院他主要是性騷法這是性平三法本來我們認為是定的非常好我們的立法院有這麼進步的法律門可是今天這個西信教授的案子是他是發生在醫院裡面雖然他有教師的身份可是我們的性平三法是以"},{"start":20159.06,"end":20185.435,"text":"這個事件發生的場域來規定有哪一個去調查那可是他假如有雙重身分的時候這個時候可能就需要因為法院上沒有規定譬如我們在性別騷擾法那裡我們就是完全依據他發生的場域可是這個人有雙重身分雖然場域是在醫院那是不是要馬上就報給學校因為我們還沒有調查"},{"start":20187.016,"end":20200.562,"text":"我們也只能先做調查完以後我們依職者再報給學校所以我想今天會讓大家這麼關心就是我本來以為性別三法訂的已經很好而且我們也從110年開始我們根據這個法我們已經處罰過在醫院裡面有申訴人有呈案的這些都有數據可以顯現可是今天這個案子"},{"start":20211.346,"end":20223.663,"text":"可能需要大家再去思考特別是這種跨身份雖然他發生的場域是在醫院但是他有教師的身份這個學生也不是學生"},{"start":20225.442,"end":20241.501,"text":"是 其實如果他是一個Resident他本身又在念研究所那萬一這個對象呢或者是這個相互的關係他又是指導老師可能就不只是在醫院而已就會爆發在大學裡面造成了這個影響"},{"start":20242.962,"end":20265.092,"text":"這個真的是相對複雜很多那很期待未來包括這個部長能夠透過跨部會的研商針對剛剛吳院長所提到的如果是很複雜的情形之下能不能一開始就必須要把它整合在一起而不至於後來是切割式的再做處理讓這些受害者得到第二次傷害"},{"start":20266.756,"end":20284.445,"text":"我想憲憑三法那個勞動部應該很熟啦那這個其實我不曉得吳院長覺得好像不太好用因為這是我上一屆擔任召委的時候通過的所以我當時覺得我們很用心在把這三個法處理得好那怎麼樣"},{"start":20286.066,"end":20312.517,"text":"圖法不只以自行嘛,怎麼樣把法弄到真的讓大家每一個場域都能夠很順利的來應用我想我們再來多請教勞動部來指導一下是這是新公法?是包括像教育部啊退伍會裡面的公民醫院系列國防部的國防大學等等事實上都會有同樣的問題"},{"start":20313.897,"end":20342.557,"text":"那個跟王漢說明這些身份不管是公務人員或者是勞工甚至可能包括實習生只要發生他在職場裡面有職場裡面的權利關係基本上就是用性供法所以雖然看起來有不同身份的多重性可是事實上都應該是用性供法來處理那我們希望將來主責單位就必須要確實負起責任因為我們最後再看有關於"},{"start":20343.337,"end":20361.24,"text":"如果不是公立醫院而是私立醫院或者是相關的體系的時候那真的是衛福部責無旁貸也希望能夠請部長繼續把這些該做的事情能夠確實的做好好那謝謝好謝謝謝謝市委好謝謝汪委員謝謝部長接下來我們請許曉新委員質詢"},{"start":20383.499,"end":20386.941,"text":"謝謝主席我們先請這個洪勝翰部長好嗎學員好部長好您是勞團出身的那請問您知道今天勞團在我們立法院前面有抗議嗎我知道那他抗議的內容是什麼今天主要針對國定假日吧國定假日他們的訴求是什麼"},{"start":20409,"end":20430.769,"text":"我希望大家不要其他人不要幫這個我們的部長回答這個問題因為他是勞團出身的所以當我們今天在我們立法院的現場上勞團抗議的時候我覺得你有責任知道他們抗議的內容是什麼主要是跟七天國家有關七天國家他們希望抗議就是說還我七天假想問一下洪聖漢部長過去知不支持七天假"},{"start":20435.138,"end":20459.333,"text":"過去對啊你在做立法委員的時候或是你在民間團體的時候你認不認同應該要放七天假這個七天假被拿掉這件事情對我們勞工來說是一件很負面的事情而且台灣的勞工工作實在是太辛苦了就我現在的工作來說沒問你過去我認同應該要盡量的減少工時的負擔好那現在呢"},{"start":20461.571,"end":20488.504,"text":"那你支不支持把七天的國定假日還全於民還給勞工我還是支持怎麼樣來協助勞工減少工時收入我問的就是這七天假嘛因為勞團今天來問的就是七天假嘛所以我們不談別的我們就談這七天假七天假還還是不還勞動部現在的立場是什麼跟委員說明因為確實國定假日現在的法規主要是在內政部主管的法規是在內政部"},{"start":20489.386,"end":20508.381,"text":"那我要問你勞動部長的想法我才能去跟內政部做溝通啊但我們會把現在勞工的各種聲音讓內政部所以你贊成還是不贊成嗎不要講目前的法規我問你作為一個勞動部長的意見我問的是你作為勞動部長你看待所有的勞工有這麼長工時的狀況之下勞動部長的意見為何這很重要啊"},{"start":20512.485,"end":20530.163,"text":"我支持降低勞工在工時上的負擔所以你支持降低勞工工時下降當然不代表你支持要恢復7天的國定假日我可以這麼解釋嗎我支持降低勞工在工時上的負擔"},{"start":20530.914,"end":20546.615,"text":"但是你不一定支持七天假還給民眾因為現在國定假日的部分他是在其他的主管部隊沒有我問的是你的態度嗎你先假設其他的主管機關都已經放行的時候你支持還不支持嗎我支持降低勞工在公司上的負擔"},{"start":20547.076,"end":20563.453,"text":"所以你還是不敢講出 知不知實現然後沒關係我接下來要問的是別的問題那主要就是剛才這個王振旭委員他也非常關心的有關於這個性騷的醫師的這個問題所以那個邱探員部長也歡迎你一起到台上我們一起來就教"},{"start":20564.413,"end":20582.127,"text":"當時在12月16號這件事情被爆出來的時候陳昭志委員也提到了就是說呢這個人那竟然這個這麼長時間的性騷擾的醫師還在婦產科職業而且他傷害的很多都是其他的醫師這是一個職場上的性騷擾那您當時這是邱恺恩部長當時說的"},{"start":20583.408,"end":20589.932,"text":"涉及性騷事件依照姓名三法處理司法判決確定執行業務出現違反學術倫理行為醫師法25條規定醫師公衛會主管機關一副懲戒但是沒有啊為什麼沒有我們勞動部長應該最清楚為什麼沒有辦法做到"},{"start":20600.898,"end":20618.812,"text":"依附懲戒為什麼沒有就是邱太元部長在12月16號他說的依信憑三法處理司法判決確定然後呢違反醫學原理行為醫師法25條醫師公會主管機關依附懲戒為什麼他所做的這些事情後來都沒有辦法做到原因是什麼"},{"start":20619.392,"end":20635.266,"text":"你最清楚這是醫師法的規定你最清楚為什麼沒有辦法做到這些事情為什麼沒有新評三法是走在前面他說新評三法走完之後司法判決確定之後然後醫師法25條新評三法是第一個所以我要先問你為什麼沒有"},{"start":20636.776,"end":20658.3,"text":"為什麼沒有什麼事情為什麼性平三法沒有辦法處理完這個案件然後公佈於社會之後為什麼這個人他繼續在擔任婦產科工會的理事長那個跟學員說明喔性平三法主要當然我說這個法應該是用性供法來去處理"},{"start":20658.9,"end":20676.299,"text":"來我們看一下討論片性供罰處理的是這個相關的出行證跟通報的機制性供罰第13條裡面寫到雇主因接獲被害人申訴而知悉性騷擾情形之後開始調查以及予以懲處請問本案有人擔任被害人嗎"},{"start":20683.22,"end":20702.227,"text":"那謝謝委員隨行喔那這個部分因為他工作的場域是在台大醫院所以台大醫院就立即得到消息以後就立即展開調查從此也給以考積懲處然後再送到台灣大學那台灣大學也一樣會經過我今天早上大概有談過好幾次"},{"start":20707.329,"end":20717.674,"text":"我現在在問的是洪部長我在問的是性別平等工作法性工法裡面的內容他要講到是要有申訴人才能做懲處"},{"start":20719.434,"end":20734.814,"text":"然後呢你有申訴人那個申訴人才能得到相關案件的報告的結果但因為本案你們堅持沒有申訴人所以沒有辦法進行下去沒有申訴人也可以進行調查那現在調查結果怎麼樣了"},{"start":20736.957,"end":20757.853,"text":"調查結果應該有公佈了嗎我們追查了老半天你們都是告訴我說都是告訴我說因為沒有申訴人所以什麼都不能公開隨喜那個西教授對啊他現在調查結果為何啊公佈了嗎為什麼這個人他現在目前還在做自己的產科台大醫院已經在"},{"start":20761.957,"end":20767.344,"text":"6月的時候已經完成調查完成調查 從考試會懲處那這個相關的報告去識別化公布了嗎去識別化 兩大過我知道去識別化以後公布了嗎因為很多受害者在等待這份報告"},{"start":20778.479,"end":20801.657,"text":"他們當初他們不敢以受害者的身份出來申訴但是他們想要知道這份報告的結果可是我們現在怎麼追都追不到你們也不願意提供給我們因為你說我們不是受害者所以你不提供給我們我相信蘇清泉醫師也好陳昭之醫師也好王振旭醫師也好陳金威醫師也好都跟你們要過了什麼東西都沒有主席我講的沒錯吧"},{"start":20805.059,"end":20825.967,"text":"倒不是我們調查沒有出來已經調查出來而且也做懲處但是去識別化其實當初我們在我們的那個委員會裡面也有討論過其實那個很容易就知道誰是受害其實你們還沒公開的時候就已經被週刊寫了啦來我們邱副長可以回答一下為什麼像這樣子的人他還可以繼續擔任他還可以繼續擔任這個婦產科醫學會的理事長"},{"start":20832.25,"end":20856.198,"text":"然後呢繼續辦參會他繼續告訴其他人說本案他是被抹黑的他說他真的啊他跟別人講說我是被抹黑的沒有這回事啊這個就是看過就好反正他理事長的位置坐的繼續屁股穩穩坐在那裡然後坐在他旁邊的一大堆人出席活動的人很多都是受害者知道這件事嗎他們不敢來參加這個學會了他們不敢來參加了"},{"start":20861.161,"end":20874.088,"text":"我們國家的法律好好保護到他們嗎?也接觸他們嗎?剛才每一個人講的下有歧視的結果他還是理事長然後他的理事醫學會裡面的會員是受害者怎麼辦?"},{"start":20878.294,"end":20901.337,"text":"怎麼辦我想那是因為是專業民間團體我想我們會站在衛福部的立場會要他們改怎麼改你要求他們要改那以後如果再出現這樣的狀況我希望這件事情我們可以事歸事沒有問題但是你要長期要像王振訓醫師剛剛講到的想出一個長期如果下次再發生這樣的事情的時候"},{"start":20901.917,"end":20920.198,"text":"我知道台大醫院我知道性供法我知道你們按這個方式做了一個流程但是現在的事實情況擺在眼前是這個加害人他可以逃過所有的法律之後他繼續在擁有權力的理事長的位置上面而他的會員們就是被害者啊"},{"start":20920.859,"end":20930.724,"text":"他們不敢參加他們不知道該不該到主桌敬酒你知道那是多難過的事情嗎女孩子的醫師不知道他該不該去向他婦產科醫學會的理事長敬酒他會發抖他們不敢過去他們都是會員"},{"start":20937.967,"end":20941.509,"text":"包委員這個我們來處理這真的是讓大家覺得很傷心的一件事情這麼久了12月16號的時候爆出來然後一路到今天我今天也不是要苛責任何人我跟大家講這個事實就是很多受害者在等待"},{"start":20954.676,"end":20970.721,"text":"你們給他正式的回應讓他們不要再看到加害他們的人跟他在同一個體系裡面大家還要假裝開心還要假裝一起喝酒誰知道喝完酒之後下一秒他會不會偷摸他下一秒會不會洗胸下一秒會不會性殺下一秒會不會性侵"},{"start":20971.821,"end":20990.34,"text":"這些女孩子 這些被經過騷擾而她因為家庭關係她不敢站出來的人在目前我們現行的體制之下她仍然在害怕所以部長 但是我希望你可以給多久的時間你們把這件事情有從頭到尾的把它處理完畢不要偉大序雕"},{"start":20991.758,"end":21020.03,"text":"你給我一個時間給我一個成果希望台灣大學趕快完成那個整個整個懲處然後我想那個縣市縣市公會的懲戒委員的委員衛生局懲戒委員的委員處理然後送到中衛護部的話我們會除了對這件事情做一個處理以外我們會把以這樣的一個系統性的來檢討希望未來不要再發生這種事情還有就是他"},{"start":21021.431,"end":21029.615,"text":"作為一個如果台大醫院已經調查這名醫師他是性騷而且嚴重的性騷也已經被記過他有這樣的事實是否就已經不再是任婦產科醫學會的理事長他現在在我們的衛生部的職登已經沒有職登了但他還是理事長啊對啊 理事長這個部分因為他是民間團體我們會對啊 他是民間團體怎麼辦呢我們會那個要求他們因為你要知道你一定比我清楚"},{"start":21050.465,"end":21069.585,"text":"知道說就算他不是醫師了沒有椅子登了但他如果是這個呃理事長覺得婦產可以學會理事長的話他等於是還是擁有很大部分決定這個產業然後會接觸到很多這個產業的醫師包含女性醫師的這個情況所以我想要最後問一下部長針對他仍然是呃這個"},{"start":21072.108,"end":21092.277,"text":"理事長身份我們能夠怎麼樣來處理如果那個部長那個勞動部長有好的方法的話也幫我們說明一下那就是你們看兩位他作為一個民間團體但你已經確定說這是一個等於是說他針對婦產科學會的醫學會然後他的會員裡面可能很多都是被他所騷擾過的"},{"start":21094.238,"end":21109.176,"text":"這個女性然後他們還要服膺在這個理事醫學會底下然後理事長是這樣子的一個人我們有沒有任何辦法請他離開他的本職如果有法律我們依法辦理如果沒有法律的話我們會欠他們禁訴改選"},{"start":21110.27,"end":21137.684,"text":"你會勸他們進出來選給我一個期限我要一個期限你們要多久之間辦理完成因為我怕我離開這個質詢台之後他又告訴我想說沒有啦我沒有這件事啊現在就是這樣會把告訴他們的情況以及他們的會副長科的回應隨時跟委員報告你需要多久你給我一個時間我們因為我也不了解說他們的因為他們要開臨時理事會嘛才有辦法去做嘛"},{"start":21138.124,"end":21159.919,"text":"所以他可能要有一點時間但是這個過程我們隨時跟委員報告好不好就是說我們已經什麼時候跟他們講了他們怎麼回應什麼時候要開臨時理事會好 謝謝那剩下法規齁如果有大家覺得有不夠周延的地方也拜託我們的勞動部跟我們的這個衛福部這邊好好的來研析希望下一次不要再有這樣的情況發生了謝謝"},{"start":21163.902,"end":21166.706,"text":"謝謝習委員 謝謝部長來 接下來我們請陳穎委員質詢謝主席 麻煩等一下喔 不好意思"},{"start":21190.871,"end":21200.862,"text":"咱們處理一下口水溫度吧"},{"start":21244.175,"end":21246.716,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請那個勞動部長部長好勞動部的這個臉書先前有傳出這個涉及司長的霸凌你們有處理嗎有 已經在臉書出來前一天我們其實就已經立案調查了因為這個已經被媒體公開那根據這個投訴的內容"},{"start":21273.862,"end":21301.024,"text":"似乎是部署對於長官的不滿而投訴那整體看起來跟霸凌的關聯性似乎不是有直接的關係整體看起來比較像是在潑髒水詆毀啦那而且還有這個數百字的指控竟然一字不差的由不同的人重複的PO在這個就是重複的PO上去那這個"},{"start":21303.14,"end":21320.619,"text":"就是說而且這些個人的檔案都是封鎖起來的那最近當然我們也常受到網軍的攻擊那很多網軍的這個帳號也是都封鎖起來的這個和我們平時受到這個網軍攻擊的手法似乎是如出一策的"},{"start":21320.899,"end":21345.314,"text":"只是說這個內容他不是AI而是說對而是由那個對於勞動部內部的事情遼弱執掌的人來就是撰寫的那而且就是說這內容呢裡面內容對於同仁的裙子有多長絲襪穿什麼顏色都知道我想要請教部長就是說"},{"start":21347.873,"end":21370.155,"text":"假如這兩位可能升署長的司長被鬥下來之後呢後續有哪些人可能可以取而代之那這些取而代之的人有沒有可能又接續著就成為被攻擊的對象或被潑髒水的對象我不曉得部長看法是什麼"},{"start":21371.263,"end":21394.86,"text":"跟陳委員說明因為這個事件有媒體有報導那我這邊簡單說一個說明我們目前看到這個投訴之前他也透過各種管道有投訴進來所以在他在臉書的留言貼出來之前前一天我們其實就已經找了外部委員立案"},{"start":21396.967,"end":21414.956,"text":"那也因為已經找了外部人立案了所以當時我們才把這個留言做隱藏因為裡面涉及到一些個資那我們已經開始調查可是我跟陳委員說明我們沒有從說這是哪一個身牽怎麼樣怎麼樣的角度我想從勞動部的角度我們就是"},{"start":21415.896,"end":21442.139,"text":"查明事實把事實弄清楚這樣很好都沒有關係但是我想本席今天想要提醒有一個重點就是說當然今天召委排定的議程題目是一個友善的職場那如果說在這個職場上有少數人以霸凌之名隨意指控這個管理者那各式各樣的問題那麼在未來的這個霸凌專法或者這個霸凌專章"},{"start":21443.88,"end":21469.116,"text":"會有機制處理嗎難道就是說各部會可以容許職場上這種捕蜂捉蠅然後就是說蜂蚊機可查辦的現象嗎那這樣的職場會友善嗎因為我現在其實我們這樣子稍微聊一下都可以看到其實各部會全體同仁上下應該都是人心惶惶吧現在就很多人也是無心工作跟陳委員說明"},{"start":21470.057,"end":21486.858,"text":"我們基本上我覺得最重要的就是把真相查明那所以也許有人投訴坦白說也有可能是捕風捉影也有可能是用就是沒有明確的事實事證甚至也不是不可能是有抹黑的狀況"},{"start":21487.859,"end":21515.267,"text":"所以最重要的事情最重要的事情就是把事實查明那我們當然會對於投訴的人陳情的人予以這個該做的保護我們會做保護可是我從一個機制面來看的話我該做的事情就是把事實查明查明勿枉勿重以後再來做後續的處理如果是捕風捉影當然也透過事實的查明去釐清沒有這些事情因為我時間有限本席還有一些想提醒的事情"},{"start":21516.007,"end":21540.796,"text":"就是說我想當然最重要的原則就是說對於任何一個具體有具體霸凌行為的人我們都應該要勿枉勿縱那任何的檢舉或者陳情都應該要具名負責所以未來的專法他是會看到黑影就開槍還是只是嚴查具名檢舉的案子或者是另外調查過程當中難免會遇到這個當事者產生"},{"start":21543.637,"end":21564.273,"text":"產生這個影響那所以為了公平那應該說不僅吹哨者要保護那對於被吹哨的當事者在事證未釐清之前是不是也應該要本於無罪推定給予應有的保障呢我會同意這個想法這是為什麼我們那時候在勞動部的這個"},{"start":21565.934,"end":21588.371,"text":"留言裡面我們認為應該要先做隱藏的原因因為這事情都還在待查明的過程裡面所以我們覺得那個裡面的留言的內容涉及到一些個資應該要隱藏不是刪除好那所以我現在要講的是說你們可以去判斷嘛如果有人天天滿腦子都在想著收集資料然後要檢舉長官"},{"start":21590.532,"end":21609.342,"text":"那就是說而且這種人還如此熟悉鍾情於這個網路的操作那我就想請教嘛這樣的人他會把心思放在工作上嗎啊大家可以去部長可以去想一想嘛而且我也好奇就是說部長你如何看待職場的倫理跟管理這個問題然後你們"},{"start":21612.043,"end":21630.219,"text":"都可以去分辨什麼是真正的霸凌檢舉或者只是網路操作帶風向的然後再惡搞嗎可不可以分辨我還是要跟委員說我覺得去透過查明事實包括要對於相關的人做出明確的訪談我覺得這件事情很重要其實如果"},{"start":21630.819,"end":21660.055,"text":"我覺得每個部會或者是行政機關我們把查明這件事實給做好我覺得也可以讓那些想要透過胡亂的爆料或者是抹黑的人知道這樣子的動作其實是沒效的所以我說還是要說明我覺得要能夠查明是最重要的事情所以我們的霸凌未來這個霸凌討論的這個霸凌的專章或者專法應該也都彼此要有一個制衡的方式嗎"},{"start":21662.236,"end":21688.605,"text":"我也不同意只要有爆料就好像就必須假設這個爆料一定是真的我覺得這其實也不合理我現在要講的是說當然既然檢舉者要具名嘛那被檢舉者要調查那麼調查的結果難道就不需要說讓這個兩造雙方都知道嗎我想這很重要吧而且還是說我們就是這個輕描淡寫然後穿過水無痕"},{"start":21689.198,"end":21715.257,"text":"沒有當然不是啊那舉例喔我舉例就是說如果調查霸凌成立要實施這個懲處那麼調查的成員跟結果也應該要能夠被直攜才有預防的效果那同樣的道理喔如果不成立也應該還人家一個清白才對那反之這個霸凌或者其他的不實指控不成立誣告的人誣告者難道都不需要懲處嗎"},{"start":21716.678,"end":21740.797,"text":"我想這個是建立友善職場一個很重要必要的綱紀那我不曉得部長認不認同本席的說法我是很好奇那個誤告者要不要被懲處我們也想請教部長我認為我自己的看法是確實會有一些他的陳情他會說這是霸凌可是實際上他可能是對管理的方式有意見"},{"start":21742.145,"end":21763.388,"text":"他可能對管理的方針但是其實沒有涉及到所謂的職場霸凌那確實管理可能有各種不同的意見可是我想我們現在很難去說對於誣告的人他就要怎麼樣的甚至我可以跟陳委員說明有很多他如果是想要捕風捉影的他甚至都是用匿名的"},{"start":21764.54,"end":21776.386,"text":"就像剛剛他可能更多他會用匿名的方法或者是假名的方法來去做陳述這是我們在裡面看到的情況那寫得亂七八糟的"},{"start":21778.981,"end":21793.95,"text":"我有看到這個內容可是我還是要跟陳委員說我不方便去說現在去說哪一個爆料就一定是真的哪一個是爆料是假的這件事情都還是要進到立案以後然後由調查的人去確認"},{"start":21794.93,"end":21811.16,"text":"事實的真相然後是不是吻合然後吻合的話那到底他是屬於哪幾類的狀況我覺得可能還是要進到這個過程所以我自己我現在做一個部長我不是我現在就直接去說哪一個這個爆料的內容是對的或這個爆料的內容是錯的"},{"start":21811.82,"end":21841.4,"text":"我想我今天也沒有要我今天也沒有要針對個案但我覺得最重要的是我想要提醒部長就針對我們要就是說未來可能要討論的這個專法跟專章的問題有重要的事情我要提醒部長就是說新的霸凌專法是不是適用公務人員你要想一想那如果是霸凌專章那是不是職安法的專章所以只適用這個勞工而不適用僱主"},{"start":21842.58,"end":21867.973,"text":"這裡的差別我想職安署應該是最清楚因為具有僱主跟合夥者身份的人在工作場所因工作原因並不是職業災害那當然主要是僱主不受職安法的保護所以在未來老闆去霸凌人家或者被霸凌的時候可能就不算是職場霸凌了這只是"},{"start":21870.374,"end":21893.324,"text":"一個有可能發生的現象那還有就是說霸凌者在勞基法的架構之下是不是還可以不服然後去地方主管調解甚至說要求申訴等就近所以我在這裡本席要特別提醒勞動部面對這個霸凌成立之後呢可能還有問題要處理那何前部長呢因為第一版調查報告而辭職"},{"start":21894.184,"end":21913.758,"text":"那因為他相信部署那部長 洪部長應該知道是說這部霸凌的專法或專章同樣都是受到我們全國關注的那提醒說要了解這個霸凌專法或者專章的重要性跟差異性在哪裡那我在衛環長時間的觀察啦"},{"start":21916.159,"end":21939.66,"text":"很多的勞動部長他的烏紗帽掉了一方面是自己缺乏危機判斷另一方面也可能就是太相信文官的見解所以也可以說是毀在文官的手上所以今天我想就是說本席要語重心長的引用何前部長在任內最後一次的背詢回答我們蘇清泉召委的話"},{"start":21941.101,"end":21951.103,"text":"那這些話呢大家都可以在立法院的公報113卷第102期的307頁找得到何部長他要卸任前這樣講"},{"start":21953.206,"end":21972.496,"text":"面对庞大的官僚体系其实我是陌生的所以我也非常戒慎恐惧我期待与文官之间发展出合作友善的关系但是我忽略了文官体制之间有难以掌控的陋习跟恶习乃至于我不曾想象的邪恶问题"},{"start":21973.456,"end":21999.834,"text":"文官體制與民主政治體制存在著很多的鴻溝社群網路媒體對於文官的凌遲和剝削也不遑多讓這些話呢其實是本席要給這個繼任的這個勞動部長對不起 不是我啦我說這些話是那個我們何賢部長給繼任的勞動部長最後的忠告那我只是拿出來再提醒一下"},{"start":22000.755,"end":22022.607,"text":"那要提醒部長 文官的這個霸凌跟內鬥齁這個非冰凍三尺 也非一日之寒我也曾經在2016回來的時候齁受到波及啦 齁 也真厲害內內太誇張到我這裡來捏把我也 把我拖進去 也寫我的黑函捏 多厲害所以要提醒喔 這個"},{"start":22024.708,"end":22043.816,"text":"最可怕的是他還會利用這個網路社群媒體甚至黑函的不實指控來利用就是說部長的陌生跟戒慎恐懼次長也一樣那提醒就是說偏聽則廢 監聽則明不要重蹈覆轍這是本席今天最大的提醒謝謝陳委員謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長接下來我們請陳培宇委員質詢"},{"start":22060.725,"end":22063.586,"text":"好謝謝主席有請衛福部跟教育部謝謝啊不對不對我第一頁還有勞動部只有一頁而已謝謝部長勞動部謝謝委員好好部長辛苦了辛苦了來部長呃我們有一個那個哎性騷那個最後拔掉了部長抱歉我們決定先不要講好了那部長請回抱歉抱歉謝謝陳委員"},{"start":22091.432,"end":22108.215,"text":"謝謝部長辛苦了我也好好來衛福部部長我從上任到現在我們發現兒少系統裡面有非常多溝基的問題而且我們其實從教育部開始其實我們進行超過一年以上的溝通衛福部也被我們打擾了非常多次"},{"start":22108.675,"end":22133.592,"text":"那目前的溝基系統看起來還是有些漏洞怎麼說只要有新聞事件我們就會回過頭來檢視這個溝基系統出了什麼問題部長在2024年12月17號台中體育班棒球隊再犯新聞至少性侵29人這個新聞我相信你一定知道然後呢就有厲害的記者去問到底發生了什麼事情他們就說因為這個教練他去到新的學校的時候"},{"start":22135.209,"end":22163.879,"text":"有勾忌的问题有去查核的问题所以就没有查出来因为还有相关的事情所以这个是我们认为勾忌很大的漏洞接下来看屏东的新闻一样屏东某国小的古兴篮球教练2022年染指五名女童这些新闻我就不要再念了但是呢最后他因为被法院判决说改判不受理所以虽然这个教练没有经过论罪科刑但仍然被法院认定肃刑不良那部长我相信你一定认同这样的教练不能再进入学校"},{"start":22164.259,"end":22187.145,"text":"甚至是不能再接觸做跟小孩有關的工作對不對對喔對嘛你認為呢這樣的人他可以持續在各式各樣的體育教學現場接觸我們的小孩嗎雖然法院判定不受理但仍然有相關肅行不良的問題而且他確實有男子女童的問題部長你覺得這樣的人還可以繼續跟我們的小孩一起做各式各樣的工作甚至是做教學嗎"},{"start":22189.813,"end":22205.149,"text":"那個委員是問衛福部問你問你 當然是問衛福部啊因為而上法49條而上法49條歸你們管的啦 部長是的雖然司法的一個判的嚴格但是我想這是不適合再擔任"},{"start":22205.609,"end":22231.459,"text":"而且我剛剛已經偷偷把答案給部長了嘛而上法49條你們其實可以做相關的行政裁罰嘛對不對好那我要講的是這一系列我們再來齁這些都還是相關比較容易追蹤的案子可是有一個更奇怪的案子齁我先舉例都只是個案可是我要講在我的個案背後都還有更多更多的個案它可以形成一個通案的論述在2022年高雄大園國中棒球隊他讓不適任的人員進到學校當義務教練"},{"start":22233.14,"end":22251.067,"text":"那這個不適任人員他有相關的校安事件所以他被列為不得再聘任為兼任代理代課老師也就是他確實被認證是一個不再適合進入校園裡面但是學校卻用志工的方法聘他入校部長你覺得這樣對嗎不妥當"},{"start":22252.208,"end":22265.943,"text":"太好了謝謝部長你的態度當然這件事情我們要從教育部來追沒有錯來下一頁可是之後兒校法要修法其實兒校法你們在修法的討論當中你們一定也已經注意到相關問題了對不對您旁邊會不會有同仁在"},{"start":22267.424,"end":22286.809,"text":"點頭那在今年的教育部的臨時提案裡面我提了一個臨時提案我要求教育部之後要全面清查可是這件事情他不會只有教育部的角色會由教育部主動發起但是我這裡要拜託衛福部部長您要指示你的同仁屆時必須要積極的跟教育部配合"},{"start":22287.409,"end":22312.544,"text":"因為他會有兒少法勾擊的問題而且兒少法修法完之後這個勾擊如果沒有再度形成一個綿密的安全網會有非常多狡猾奸詐可惡的大人他們會利用這個系統的漏洞繼續留在每一個可能接觸到小孩的場所過往我在提出警告的時候你們都用非常多理由跟藉口但非常多新聞事件一再的證明"},{"start":22313.664,"end":22326.079,"text":"這些漏洞很大很大很大所以即將要開始的兒少法修法之前我要拜託衛福部部長你給我給我們一個承諾好不好你們之後會積極跟教育部甚至部長還有即將掛牌成立的運動部是"},{"start":22328.722,"end":22336.624,"text":"因為運動部裡面會有非常多單項運動教練社區運動教練他可能進入校園可能留在社區而他們相關的認證有他們的專業認證但是他們跟兒少在一起這件事情相關認證相關資格相關法規範會跟衛福部有極大的關係尤其落在兒少權法裡頭"},{"start":22347.543,"end":22364.359,"text":"好的 我們這幾個部會大家都講霸凌 我今天不講霸凌我要講的就是這個非常重要的命題 好嗎因為我們知道你們兒上法修法在即嘛 對不對好 謝謝部長 謝謝接下來部長您請回 謝謝那教育部的學特司司長 來"},{"start":22365.76,"end":22374.743,"text":"我們之前一直跟你們說我們有跟體育署說也跟教育部反映體育署要求全中運要去報名的選手必須要綁定所謂禁藥知識測驗做完這個測驗之後才能就是被綁定之後他才能去報名當全中運的選手甚至體育署說這個是符合國際潮流可是我們發現這個案子竟然是委託給體育署沒有辦法監督的基金會的平台去執行好這樣子也就算了"},{"start":22394.429,"end":22397.235,"text":"在今年報名前夕 系統當調"},{"start":22399.412,"end":22424.194,"text":"體育署的藉口說因為選手大量同一時間上線可是我們發現這個問題其實在10月就已經解決了但為什麼到現在還是有很多全中運的選手其實沒有完成這個禁藥知識測驗的報名那會不會影響到後續他們身為全中運選手的資格呢我們問了體育署他們說不會不會啦之後再來補我想要問一下司長你們"},{"start":22425.275,"end":22443.636,"text":"在教育部裡面這些討論我們其實一直有提醒你們這邊我想要積極拜託你們因為這些選手他都是國教署要積極維護相關權益的選手也是教育部要積極維護相關權益的選手他們只是體育業務跟體育署有關可是相關的事情還是有非常多必須要教育部有所承擔這邊可不可以請司長幫我們簡單回應一下"},{"start":22446.536,"end":22471.128,"text":"我想盧董剛才委員所說體育署說明這個目前運動員要通過這個線上的這個禁藥知識的檢測是目前國際的沒有啦我跟你說奧運都沒有今年我知道亞運有可是亞運他們只是讓他們上ADL然後通過相關測驗相關配套並不是只是隨便綁一個測驗然後就當成逼迫選手要報名的時候綁定在一起"},{"start":22471.488,"end":22491.437,"text":"每次只要說符合國際趨勢我們辦公室就認真去查資料發現並不是這樣所以市長我要跟你說2022奧運就沒有這個要求好謝謝市長請繼續好那我想那個因為體育署他在目前政策上是朝這個方向在做所以他現在會是想辦法克服有關於這個網路流量的問題10月就解決了啦市長"},{"start":22493.668,"end":22503.317,"text":"聽起來是還在努力中他希望能夠從流量上解決問題讓所有要報名參賽的選手能夠完成這個線上檢測那這個部分還在努力當中所以我們應該也會維護這些選手的報名的權益這是第一個非常重要絕對不要讓他們因為沒有參與這個禁藥線上平台測驗而限制他們當選手的資格"},{"start":22515.468,"end":22528.82,"text":"但是後續這個平台跟這個相關的業務關係我們辦公室也會再釐清也拜託這邊先給予轉達好嗎因為這個事情非常非常急 全中運報名的部分好 以上謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長圖前級委員 圖前級委員 圖前級委員他改書面諮詢張雅琳委員 張雅琳 張雅琳委員"},{"start":22553.291,"end":22555.054,"text":"謝謝主席有請衛福部部長"},{"start":22562.637,"end":22580.447,"text":"部長好去年113年的7月30號行政院有核定一個護理人力政策整備中長程計畫就是從今年開始114到117的一個中長程計畫那這半年來"},{"start":22581.588,"end":22605.146,"text":"我們也看到你們都在做一個擴大意見收集的會議雖然我不知道會議的結果是什麼但是我想應該都離不開關於血汗醫護解決這個問題你們也有一個12項策略的計畫當中當然改善職場的環境薪資的改善人才培育等等也很多包括護病筆"},{"start":22606.407,"end":22631.744,"text":"達標的話醫院會有獎勵或者是說用科技來減輕護理的負荷又或者說夜班護理人員直接獎勵那我想其實大家最在意的應該還是人力問題啦不是單單的所謂的獎勵或提高薪資啦我舉個例子我就聽到很多抱怨啦夜班護理人員直接獎勵完蛋了白班的有意見了會有這種狀況嗎嗯"},{"start":22636.638,"end":22652.187,"text":"月班直接獎勵對啊 白班也很累啊我們常常講不換寡換不均嘛那他就會有相對的剝奪感嘛好 那沒有關係 部長我只是提醒說我們不要去創造了一些策略"},{"start":22653.007,"end":22681.899,"text":"那明明也加薪了 明明也獎勵了結果到最後大家還是覺得有所差異 並不滿意我覺得這是很可惜的但是我要講的是說大家最在乎的其實還是人力這個最重要那我自己因為是屏東人所以我也去看過衡旅 布屏或者是退府會的屏容 龍泉分院我講一句實在話我是至少我覺得就是政府部門 公部門"},{"start":22682.699,"end":22701.693,"text":"所設立的這些醫院應該來做領頭羊來徵聘護理師所以請教一下部長這些部立醫院有沒有要徵聘我想各個醫院都在努力徵聘公立醫院有規劃多少要增加500多個職缺嗎"},{"start":22713.106,"end":22733.055,"text":"我想這個資料我也很想了解我的意思只是說這個要提醒我希望再去盤整一下因為我聽到基層其實還是會有很多意見那這些獎勵策略我覺得一定要好好的想怎麼樣符合基層的期待畢竟我們現在是趨於下風"},{"start":22734.255,"end":22756.998,"text":"很多偏鄉醫院就是招不到醫護嘛我想這個部分我們要好好的檢討那另外一個部分我想部長您之前也跟我們一同努力把原住民族健康法拼出來了那在去年很高興去年的10月我看到其中一個執法叫原住民族健康照護人員的培育禁用及流用辦法也出來了其中"},{"start":22757.559,"end":22767.339,"text":"第10條這個第一項他有提到寬裂鎖匣原住民族地區衛生所支援而編制那請教一下部長目前擴編的情形"},{"start":22772.086,"end":22791.013,"text":"這個第十條的部分寬列衛生所編制在兩年前我們國健署就已經有公布在衛生所地區的一個編制應該沒有受到限制也就是說他們有需求相關的醫事人都可以編好啊 那我就請教像那個娜瑪夏就有跟我陳情啊她說他們想要徵聘一位醫師啊"},{"start":22792.814,"end":22804.93,"text":"會嗎?這部分有跟他們提過是可以請真的所以意思就是說他們沒有提出來?上次去下鄉的時候就有跟他們提過所以他們沒有提出來嗎?對,他們沒有提那是市政府的問題囉?"},{"start":22807.793,"end":22828.568,"text":"好 我要講這個是說很多原鄉都不知道啦縣市不知道啦這個部分可能還是要加強宣導好不好你看都已經有資格啦可是他們不知道 還在跟我們陳情這很奇怪 好不好那另外同條第三項會提供留任獎金就是六年以後繼續留下來的請問對象 醫師 護理師目前是針對醫師的部分目前是針對醫"},{"start":22836.003,"end":22845.65,"text":"那就糟糕啦 就我講的啊不患寡患不均啊明明是好事 結果另外一邊沒有 這樣好嗎這是針對工會 工會議事如果細留任於該地區"},{"start":22854.591,"end":22864.919,"text":"服務期滿的我們鼓勵啦是啊 那護理師呢我想這個是中長城計畫嘛也有核定這個經費再好好想一想因為我都覺得很可惜每次政府有美意但為德不足多可惜啊就會引發另外一種抱怨的聲音不好因為我們偏鄉教育條例也有9任獎金啊大家也在考慮學校不是只有老師嘛護理師校護也算嘛我們也要考慮進去我們來引力"},{"start":22883.473,"end":22908.872,"text":"那另外一個就是社會救助法也是衛福部主管的一個法條在其中第四條就是有關低收入戶那最重要的是第四項就是所謂的家庭財產包括動產及不動產其金額應分別定之這個就是取決於他能不能獲得這個資格那請教一下部長就是這個所謂的財產收入有沒有包括社會救助的給付"},{"start":22912.866,"end":22927.455,"text":"非常感謝那個委員這邊的那個垂詢其實我們現在目前社會救助法我們現在目前確實有把這個我覺得應該要做一些調整現在目前的整個這一個更多的方案我們現在目前已經送到院那邊我們是希望就是說這部分應該我們應該應該做社會救助應該不會市長是這樣因為這個問題其實因為"},{"start":22934.859,"end":22960.763,"text":"之前105年開始發放禁法補償也問過啦那108年的時候法務部有一個回覆含釋他是說依法的這種現金啊 給付或補助不得扣押讓與或提供擔保品那如果還是強制執行的話有違政府發放之目的所以這個部分我知道的是後來這幾年是讓各縣市自行認定我覺得不夠好啦"},{"start":22961.603,"end":22976.878,"text":"我是希望說比照法扶基金會他就寫得很清楚法扶基金會誰可以申請他也有把這個排除掉就是淨法補償收入他很明定所以我是希望說你們也可以來明定好不好不要讓各縣市認定好不好包委我們這個我們來演繹我想這個確實應該是"},{"start":22979.941,"end":22992.02,"text":"那市長請教一下上次那個那麼夏我知道也有澄清那個洗腎中心但是我有跟你提到可以去做一個行動的洗腎車你們規劃的如何了"},{"start":22993.359,"end":23015.967,"text":"我們原鄉太多人要洗腎了這個部分跟衛生局有討論過他們目前是想要協調鄰近的小型的地區醫院或診所他們來承攬承攬這個行動洗腎對 配置或是在一個固定的場合是最適合的那我想說大概兩週內可以來跟我就我今天所關心的來跟我做一個報告好嗎謝謝好 謝謝謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":23020.977,"end":23028.702,"text":"謝謝吳委員鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在楊耀委員 質詢這個主席 主席請一下勞動部紅部長"},{"start":23048.836,"end":23065.711,"text":"部長我們推動友善職場大概就是要從好多個面向包括平常的教育宣導包括鼓勵受害者勇於舉報"},{"start":23068.836,"end":23086.405,"text":"舉報了以後要怎麼保護受害者到後續雇主應該要怎麼妥善的處理這是一個很大的問題我們也有相關的法律在做規範我想"},{"start":23089.426,"end":23097.799,"text":"我常講只有法律是沒有辦法完成任何一件事情的,還是必須要真正的落實法律才是重點"},{"start":23101.707,"end":23122.425,"text":"推動友善職場應該也算是勞動部一個很重要的工作怎麼讓勞工甚至於是你們自己的員工在職場上獲得保障避免受到不必要的不管是性貧性輕或者是霸凌種種"},{"start":23125.506,"end":23147.951,"text":"這個請部長就是長期來關注那我今天想要跟部長就我們就業服務法剛通過修正的相關問題跟部長做個討論那這個我們新修的就業服務法放寬了80歲以上"},{"start":23150.609,"end":23173.588,"text":"的長者就是聘用外國籍的看護工不用經過醫療機關的就取消八十兩票的規定面聘部長我們八十全國八十歲以上的人口有多少你知道"},{"start":23179.269,"end":23191.773,"text":"91萬91萬那根據統計大概有53萬其實是健康的可是現在原本假如有巴士量表就是大概不到40萬人"},{"start":23194.144,"end":23207.691,"text":"可能有需求我們說可能有需求那現在突然多出了多出了潛在的需求者53萬對這個缺口你要怎麼你要怎麼怎麼補"},{"start":23209.376,"end":23224.686,"text":"跟揚元說明我們當然現在會來跟外交部那一起跟我們這個外籍看護工的來源主要的來源國那來討論說那有沒有可能這個攻擊就是"},{"start":23225.586,"end":23240.315,"text":"跨國勞動力的供給在提高的可能但是這真的不完全超支在我們我知道這跟在母國他的自己的管理量能包括他能夠引進的量能都有很大的關係包括也跟我們其實在國際的"},{"start":23241.936,"end":23260.852,"text":"這個移工的市場上面的競爭力都有關係那我們當然會來試圖在供給上面還能不能再提高可是我們自己目前來評估的話跟需求增加這麼多來比需求的總體大概是潛在有53萬人他可以拿到申請的資格"},{"start":23261.573,"end":23285.92,"text":"那但是當然不會每個人都來申請所以我們大概估計了一下就是說如果從這個過去失能的整體失能的長者的話大概有五成的人需要外籍看護工跟長照那所以如果來來對比的話我們大概評估也許兩到三成需要的話那大概十萬到十幾萬之間那這十幾萬跟我們"},{"start":23287.06,"end":23303.022,"text":"十幾萬就已經算很多了對所以十萬到十幾萬之間跟我們能夠在供給端能夠提高的量看起來這是為什麼我們這麼擔心的原因因為看起來供需的失衡有可能會加劇對因為我自己本身也是"},{"start":23304.744,"end":23333.194,"text":"外籍看護工的雇主所以我知道這幾年就是缺工已經原本就很嚴重對 這是本來就有的現象不過是這樣子 立法院的法律通過那行政部門就是變成只能去做因應那我們在國際就是勞動力引進其實先天上我們本來就"},{"start":23335.172,"end":23363.277,"text":"簡單的講就是我們的工資遠不如日韓啦對 沒錯就是在競爭上本來就已經就已經屈居若市對對對那現在一下子要不過這個還是必須要努力努力去做啦好不好我們會來跟兩個部分 剛才講說供給端會跟這個外交部來做討論那但是就整體因應尤其是怎麼樣來優先的保障"},{"start":23364.297,"end":23387.586,"text":"這個重症家庭他受到照顧的權益這部分我們會跟衛福部來做這個商案可是你們好像沒有權利去做判斷哪一個判斷就是優先優先照顧重度必須要照顧的因為他現在就是變成變成大家的條件都一樣"},{"start":23389.059,"end":23399.89,"text":"除非是長照的部分當然是比較有優先順序可是外籍看護工並沒有外籍看護工就會變成你不可能去設定說說他80歲以上"},{"start":23404.679,"end":23423.269,"text":"誰優先優先你們可以嗎我們可能沒有辦法硬性的去設定可是我們怎麼來幫助他們可以比較容易找得到留得住或者是增加留得住的條件我們當然會想往這個方向來去協助但是確實因為這個修法後其實它的衝擊"},{"start":23425.785,"end":23431.148,"text":"這個還是會很大我們只能在這裡減緩衝擊我們可能沒有辦法完全的讓這個衝擊不會發生我們只能試圖減緩衝擊假如說可以"},{"start":23440.313,"end":23467.346,"text":"有一個配套出來就是看要怎麼疏導讓真正重中度失能的長者可以優先取得優先顧到外籍看護工那當然是最好我們會希望往這個方向來試著一些政策工具怎麼使用可是就是這可能不是一個絕對的事情因為它可能沒有辦法變成是一個強力的管制"},{"start":23469.547,"end":23484.963,"text":"你們沒有辦法 因為法律本來就不允許你這麼做那你剛剛講的非硬性的疏導方式有沒有優先協助啦 優先協助 對"},{"start":23486.224,"end":23509.834,"text":"怎麼協助因為禮拜二才剛修法通告嘛那我們接下來會跟衛福部來研擬這個降低衝擊的跨部會降低衝擊的配套的做法不過我在想衛福部可以的就是只有透過長照制度來做啊跟外籍看護公司是兩條比較"},{"start":23512.695,"end":23539.166,"text":"相類似可是並不重疊的線因為衛福部比較了解需求他比較了解照護需求那勞動部這邊我們的專長是在勞動力管理那這一整件事情的因應可能會需要你也了解照護需求對照護需求有相對應不同的策略然後怎麼樣透過勞動力管理大家一起來配合所以這需要兩個部一起來合作可是我的理解是衛福部"},{"start":23540.186,"end":23556.494,"text":"衛福部可能可以做的就是就是在請不到勞工的時候怎麼用長照制度去做挹注他可能比較沒有辦法跟你搭配來做外籍看護跟僱主的篩選"},{"start":23557.634,"end":23572.698,"text":"我的意思嗎對但我說實質的做法我覺得這是一個合作但是可能不是互相取代的但是它是一個合作所以衛福部有衛福部比較擅長比較了解的部分我們勞動部有比較我們擅長了解的部分"},{"start":23573.138,"end":23593.845,"text":"怎麼樣子在不同的功能上面一起來分工合作我們現在只能試圖往降低衝擊的方向來想可是恐怕那個衝擊還是會發生這是我們最擔心的這也是為什麼我們在修法前一直要提醒大家嚴正要提醒大家這個修法是不是做一個妥當的修法副作用可能會很大我就是再用一分鐘講其實這幾天"},{"start":23598.228,"end":23620.867,"text":"因為澎湖老人也多啦其實已經有一些僱主會擔心其實我自己也擔心為什麼 因為現在本來就就是這幾年就是一年一年比一年難聘那現在又大幅度的放寬會產生"},{"start":23627.15,"end":23639.242,"text":"外籍看護工他可以選擇照顧者他選擇亞健康的照顧者他不選擇重症"},{"start":23641.977,"end":23657.935,"text":"那他選擇可以給他額外津貼多一點的經濟上的強勢者就是薪資 薪資也會大家順著要拉高三的增加機會這個也合理 站在他的立場"},{"start":23659.09,"end":23671.462,"text":"他也會選擇地區我覺得像離島偏鄉也會越來越難找得到家庭看護工那法律通過了接下來就請"},{"start":23674.244,"end":23696.231,"text":"部長我想這個議題也不會只有今天問那請部長趕快回去做一定的政策方向的擬定好不好謝謝部長 謝謝主席謝謝兩位謝謝兩位 謝謝部長葉仁芝 葉仁芝 葉仁芝委員不在"},{"start":23700.114,"end":23727.322,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束委員涂謙其所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報現在做一下決定報告及詢答完畢委員執行會籍答覆或請補充資料者相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另行要求者從其所定本日會議到此結束現在上會謝謝大家"},{"start":23741.787,"end":23743.108,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":23748.712,"end":23774.241,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":23774.943,"end":23775.124,"text":"謝謝大家 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林俊憲委員陳素月召委"},{"start":1978.939,"end":2007.381,"text":"好接著介紹列席的官員我們第一個預算是審理數位發展部的首先我們歡迎數位發展部黃燕南部長謝謝部長葉寧常務司長常次數位策略師葉秀全司長葉司長任性建設師吳明仁代理司長"},{"start":2009.642,"end":2020.454,"text":"資源管理師 劉信仁市長數位政府師 王承明市長數位國際師 莊盈智市長資料創新師 莊明芬市長"},{"start":2027.944,"end":2039.369,"text":"你們這一排也要幫忙鼓掌一下不然鼓掌部隊太明顯了同仁之間也要稍微互動一下主計處 吳俊鈺處長還有秘書處 陳仲山處長資訊處 周志和處長人事處 莫永榮處長"},{"start":2056.707,"end":2085.308,"text":"政風處陳春信處長法治處張學文處長我們數位產業署林俊秀署長跟我們資通安全署謝翠娟署長國家資通安全研究院何全德院長"},{"start":2088.099,"end":2102.223,"text":"好謝謝 財政法人台灣網路資訊中心黃盛雄董事長好黃董事長財政法人電信技術中心林炫祐副執行長啊你們執行長咧喔好財政法人資訊工業策進會楊佳"},{"start":2114.961,"end":2117.144,"text":"行政院主計總署公務預算處黃曉娟專委基金預算處李政道科長"},{"start":2134.346,"end":2151.77,"text":"好今天謝謝我們社會發展部啊這個可以相關單位都來了如果各位也有待會有什麼就教部分要詳細回答好那我們現在進行協商同時請議事人員宣讀預算數及委員提案"},{"start":2153.834,"end":2169.188,"text":"我們今天協商的順序是一 數位發展部二 中華郵政公司三 觀光署及所屬第四 觀光發展基金請相關列席的官員大概注意一下順序我們現在開始進行協商"},{"start":2214.664,"end":2225.036,"text":"中華民國一月四年度中央政府總預算數位發展部稅務入來原幣預算數第二款八款及非常收入"},{"start":2226.949,"end":2246.694,"text":"第207項數位發展部五列數第三款規費收入第171項數位發展部24億5658萬7千元第4款財產收入第217項好謝謝各位委員那今天請拿出最大本的最大本的第7款其他收入"},{"start":2247.934,"end":2269.774,"text":"應該是算今天最後的好也請各位翻開社會發展部114年度單位預算建議併案及預算表待會審理預算按照這個併案審理的這個順序來審理好如果各位翻開我們先看第一案"},{"start":2271.876,"end":2292.552,"text":"稅務使用 規費收入 頻率及電信號碼使用費來 主席有沒有提案好你好 主席這個我想因為數位部可以看到今天的這個建議批判預算表其實大家這個提案非常多那三的數量也非常的高當然是爭議也蠻多的"},{"start":2293.232,"end":2302.261,"text":"那最高的大概有兩億三億的都有在刪了那我就建議說因為過去這兩週我想我們交通委員會過去以來這個省運算都是比較和諧啦"},{"start":2303.953,"end":2322.828,"text":"很多提案委員提的數字很高但大家到最後因為委員會大家為了和氣最後就沒有上或是直接凍結而已所以我建議說這個蘇衛部預算因為我想大家也在提不管朝野政黨對這個蘇衛部的爭議或對蘇衛部的這些想法非常多那提案也非常多是不是就直接"},{"start":2324.109,"end":2345.142,"text":"節省大家時間我們直接送後續直接送政黨協商來看不然今天我看今天這個光說不可能弄一整天弄不完目前這個光如果光每一個項目的數字光這樣來來回回大家討論來討論去吵架玩家之後我想可能今天都過不完啊所以提案說看如果我們委會沒有意見的話是不是直接送到政黨協商我們請主席採視謝謝"},{"start":2348.824,"end":2368.978,"text":"好 謝謝黃金豪委員保留送政黨結案 陳書業召委我想立法院是委員會中心主義啦齁那審預算也是我們委員的權利啊所以我是希望說我們還是逐一來審查然後也讓那個數位部有充分說明的一個機會啦齁 謝謝"},{"start":2372.435,"end":2393.046,"text":"好 那我想這個林國成委員我想看來看去因為省預算省到我們交通委員會這裡啊數位部是背山的比例算蠻高的啦那就代表大家對數位部的瞭解度不夠或者你們的編類預算"},{"start":2396.688,"end":2414.521,"text":"較為苦難這個當然要先釐清這個那當然也要尊重部長因為建豪委員他提的也是有理由看起來似乎啊這個三減一算這麼多就代表所有委員對這些是有疑慮"},{"start":2415.522,"end":2441.441,"text":"那當然還是要聽聽你的意見我想見好他的理由不是沒有理由但是大家可以商量一下你認為送到那邊去也比較簡單啦也比較簡單那你們認為希望我們神不需要送到大會那你要講出一個理由啊為什麼比例這麼高為什麼比例這麼高所以這是我個人看法那我也贊成"},{"start":2442.602,"end":2463.133,"text":"送那個大會來審查這樣因為現在數位部所有編列的預算成長幅度啊各方面是非常高的所以到大會去啊大家三黨所有的立委共同來討論也是一件好事所以基本上建好的建議我是支持的"},{"start":2465.578,"end":2487.725,"text":"好的謝謝幾位委員的發言那這個黃委員的建議是說這個數位發展部就整本的預算就保留送院會那我們的委員還有沒有來林俊憲委員所有主席各位同仁如果我們送到院會去院會沒有時間審查啦"},{"start":2490.686,"end":2517.22,"text":"都是一個統三啦統三的比例都不會太高如果各位真的對各位同仁可以自己考量一下如果大家對數位數法部的預算有意見那其實應該你要審嘛你才可以逐條去了解他的業務到底在幹什麼你才可以去知道他未來的預算增加是要做什麼事情嘛"},{"start":2518.516,"end":2541.614,"text":"我覺得如果你整本都送到大會去啊其實是交委會沒有盡到我們的責任啦各位知道他這段預算要幹嘛嗎?我認為在場的立委也不一定都知道啦沒人知道啦,你要信嗎?你不知道你審下去你才有機會去更進一步去了解不清楚我們就問他嘛"},{"start":2542.745,"end":2569.623,"text":"其實你把他送到大會去反而好啦 保證你比較輕鬆啦對不對 你天都好你送他去 蘇華部的官員也不會比較痛苦啦好不好 大家考量一下啦如果真的是對預算有意見反而就是應該要審啦這是我的意見看法 好不好好 謝謝 尊重你的才智啦好 各位"},{"start":2571.325,"end":2587.775,"text":"徐副委員來給徐委員講謝謝主席我想過去委員會在質詢的時候我想很多委員對抒發部的業務也都很關心尤其社會大眾對這個抒發部未來打造的功能也寄予厚望所以本席這邊"},{"start":2589.436,"end":2616.694,"text":"我還是認為說我們既然對這個預算應該要把關也應該要好好的審查針對一些重點的一個業務的項目也應該要給予書法部一個說明的機會那我想這樣子避免說這樣到時候到院會去統刪之後結果有些重點項目的經費被刪掉之後那未來這個再打詐還有一些相關的一些數位發展的業務上面受到這個衝擊的時候就不好了所以我建議還是我們好好的來把關審查 謝謝"},{"start":2619.898,"end":2635.69,"text":"好 那我們部長有什麼想法嗎我希望有機會給我們進一步說明我想這個很多業務可能要說明以後會比較清楚所以如果有機會我是希望能夠在這邊說明以後再來決定怎麼進行這樣"},{"start":2639.437,"end":2662.21,"text":"好 那這樣那個建華委員各位委員我想大家這個不管是不同的意見其實只有一個目標啦就針對於我們社會發展部不管他執行的效率或者預算的這個編列大家事實上有蠻多疑問的那我這樣子好不好我就在這裡裁示我們就開始來審預算好不好盡我們交通委員會的一個責任"},{"start":2665.304,"end":2670.508,"text":"這個部分當然為什麼我也想說針對異議啦那經過溝通啊他們所有的作法"},{"start":2692.085,"end":2711.927,"text":"那我在這裡是有要求那數位部也原則性同意三個月以內向立法院交通委員會提出書面報告那我也同意不針類所以這點特別跟我們召集人做說明跟報告"},{"start":2714.625,"end":2721.418,"text":"好 這個第一案是改組決議的意思嗎好的那我們現在第一案改組決議"},{"start":2726.525,"end":2749.06,"text":"好 三個月內提供報告嘛 沒問題吧 主決也要押這樣的一個時程好 接下來第二至三案 開始審查稅出稅出的 這是整體的通案嗎沒有寫通案稅出的整個整體的通案 兩位委員提案 這個"},{"start":2756.305,"end":2766.992,"text":"提案委員有沒有補充說明的好各位謝謝召委本席在這邊提案的第三案呢是關於速發布114年度業務費的這個預算案"},{"start":2770.578,"end":2794.645,"text":"那我想這個業務費呢在這個案子上面總共編列是12億那我不知道這個訴發部的官員還有我們的同仁知不知道12億是什麼樣的規模我們這個詐騙集團單日最高詐騙金額一天就是5.5億所以這個詐騙集團兩天的收入我們這個訴發部要花一年"},{"start":2796.005,"end":2815.883,"text":"去跟他對抗所以當然我們理解啦這個速發部的同仁應該是非常辛苦就是我們的資源有限那我們是在做這個不對稱的戰爭但是雖然資源有限我們也希望能夠讓這個資源可以給速發部的同仁來做打仗"},{"start":2816.644,"end":2838.521,"text":"但是编的每一笔钱也都是名子名高所以我们一定要好好的来监督就算只有这些资源我们能不能把这些资源最大化那在这个业务费的使用上面呢我们看到速发部的预算书里面有清楚的列出积极推动打诈工作是你们的施政主轴"},{"start":2839.241,"end":2852.473,"text":"但是我們可以看到從數據上來說我不知道部長理不理解這個越打越炸已經不是只是民間的傳言而是數據上的真相112年全台炸氣件數37000件到了113年年還沒過完的統計1到10月的炸氣件數統計是7萬多件"},{"start":2862.102,"end":2881.451,"text":"那我们看打渣仪表本加起来我们现在已经到2025年了所以很可能是要将近10万甚至突破10万件财损总金额呢应该是已经突破了几百亿台币那我们本来看到10月份数据是稍微下降到单月108亿"},{"start":2883.171,"end":2905.636,"text":"但是到了11月 126億又回來了我們本來還期待說12月 速發部會不會相關的打詐行為因為有相關的作為 所以又下降結果沒有 只下降2億所以又是124億 12月 我們現在是1月2號所以讓官員還有同仁都了解最新的數據"},{"start":2906.816,"end":2930.519,"text":"那單日的財損5.5億平均每日超過4億多這個數據我想每一位官員一定都要背在心裡因為這都是民眾的痛抒發物每一年花納稅人這麼多的錢我們今天講到12億還只是業務費那卻沒有成效那又有很多這個粉磚上架下架封鎖"},{"start":2931.4,"end":2952.23,"text":"可能有一些資訊不公開不透明甚至呢這些詐騙橫行的事件我想一再的頻傳速發部應該比國人感到更生氣更緊張但是我想我們在整個過程當中看到速發部相對消極那如果這麼消極你們又把它列為你們的主軸工作這是不是有所"},{"start":2953.19,"end":2977.644,"text":"漢格呢到底速發部能不能一肩扛起能不能承諾明年的成效是不是有什麼樣的一個數據可以讓我們看到很明確的下降那同時呢我們也看到很多的案例裡面詐騙的做法已經開始轉型了變成是用這種所謂的扮演角色做資訊落差來做詐騙"},{"start":2979.345,"end":2994.331,"text":"運用利用民眾的正義感開始有很多人扮演假扮警察假扮檢察官去欺騙那我們認為呢這個有非常多民眾甚至名人都受騙他們說資訊落差造成了這些詐騙橫行"},{"start":2995.771,"end":3009.578,"text":"本席在此案建議透過雙重認證的機制2FA讓檢警跟民眾接觸的時候這些官方代表應該要出示一個rotating的六碼讓民眾將這些數碼傳到"},{"start":3012.839,"end":3035.732,"text":"政府的官方頻道去收到確認說他到底是不是哪一個檢察官到底是不是哪一個辦案的人員到底是不是一個中央政府甚至我們都看到網紅說收到速發布的人來收集白名單速發布說沒有這些身份的驗證我相信速發布應該要一肩扛起去減低這個資訊的落差"},{"start":3037.333,"end":3059.429,"text":"那對此呢我們有溝通啦那抒發部有說呢這個做法希望能跟警政署做實務程序的研議去共同評估甚至做技術的提供那希望請部長說明一下抒發部要花多久的時間才能夠評估完成我們每評估多一天社會就被多騙四五億台幣所以能不能快一點"},{"start":3059.969,"end":3088.177,"text":"那另外呢這個打炸賴貼圖我是先不講他叫寶寶不說我不知道為什麼當然這是一個網紅啦是一個創作者那我想你說你應該要寶寶要說嘛因為被騙了就應該要說啊結果你這個貼圖系列叫寶寶不說其實不太理解為什麼是這樣但是因為我也有下載我覺得蠻可愛的但是這裡面的內容跟策略到底是不是我們打炸大家看到的"},{"start":3088.877,"end":3117.056,"text":"的這個速發布希望民眾看到的東西難道希望民眾只看到貼圖嗎貼圖就能夠降低詐騙率嗎希望明年度的預算我們今天一定會嚴正的來審核希望我們在這個案子的凍結500萬左右凍結希望能夠速發布藉由這樣的一個專案來提出我們剛剛幾點的這個回覆之外也希望能夠有相關的這個做法能夠讓我們更清楚我們在於解凍謝謝"},{"start":3118.888,"end":3135.577,"text":"好謝謝葛委員那這樣好不好部長要不要說明一下回應一下大概時程怎麼樣因為這個我看這一段只有凍結了你就看回應一下什麼時候給書面報告謝謝委員那個知道那個我們有協商過我是不是請那個署長協商的那個結果再說明一下"},{"start":3140.402,"end":3164.477,"text":"謝謝趙委謝謝委員那這個協商的結果感謝各位同意把文字就是提出書面報告等等那也順便跟趙委跟委員報告一下目前的一些成效那假投資因為我們每天都會去掃這些網路廣告平台的一些廣告假投資已經下降從7萬多下降到數千而已"},{"start":3165.097,"end":3189.346,"text":"那名人詐騙也下降了蠻多 從三萬多下降到變四千多所以我們觀察趨勢 但是它會轉移比如說在我們三資虛擬帳號的那個部分它就轉移到這個超商的條貸嘛那我們也跟經濟部聯訪 找四大超商來聯訪就把它超商條貸嘛 不要當作詐騙的工具這個我們也一直在進行"},{"start":3190.606,"end":3205.6,"text":"那剛剛委員嘴巡的這個雙重認證的這個機制我覺得蠻好的那不過現在就是我們會有政府的意義當作是政府的部分那另外其實165一直廣宣如果你有疑義的話希望打165讓165來幫你這樣子"},{"start":3207.822,"end":3234.481,"text":"大概我們目前是有這樣子不好意思我可以稍等一下我這邊先建議一下我們今天是主要是審預算大家對如果對於詐騙或者我們到時候會有專案報告或另外排流程那我們還是針對預算好 葛如君第二次發言沒關係我想這個做法上我覺得這個並沒有得到相應的答覆所以我還是因為"},{"start":3236.527,"end":3255.898,"text":"這個剛剛講的很多數字我們其實一般上網都可以看得到那我們就希望能夠有這樣子的預算其實就是希望能夠知道具體的時程我們才能夠知道我們在預算上面要如何做那這個我剛剛是沒有得到明確的答覆的謝謝我這邊是不是可以再補充一下就是該委員這邊提到"},{"start":3256.818,"end":3278.413,"text":"跟那個警政署這邊協調的這個部分的話我們訴訟室這邊會來處理那我們希望可以在兩個月內跟這個委員這邊提出書面報告是不是書面報告之後就可以動之我們的預算這樣子主席 謝謝好 那個林國昌委員我想你們這個在審預算怎麼那麼不乾脆啊12億多給你們凍結"},{"start":3281.336,"end":3297.574,"text":"凍結我這個葛文勳委員這裡凍結五百萬這個你們還在談什麼理由凍結以後一個是專案報告一個是書面報告十二億多凍結五百萬你們還有什麼意見呢所以我是覺得你們在審預算"},{"start":3299.516,"end":3309.543,"text":"該動的這動議算本來就是最輕微的給你們一個警惕12億多欸如果我是你們啊我老早就答應說好欸我還"},{"start":3314.853,"end":3329.863,"text":"這本來就用書面報告啊 你就爭取的書面報告跟專案報告這樣跟委員溝通 委員同意 這個案子就好啦那你們為什麼要講得老半天咧委員講的沒有錯 就是我們...你們在菜市場聊天是不是"},{"start":3337.352,"end":3363.44,"text":"你人家講話也稍微舉手發言一下好不好好不好不管誰做這個主席拜託各位你們誰講話沒有關係稍微舉手發言一下好才讓我們哪位發言突然一個聲音出來委員這邊也搞不清楚抱歉不是對你不禮貌但拜託你們現在人這麼多誰要舉手發言沒問題你要補充說明請舉個手那委員這邊我會自己來看來昆哲委員"},{"start":3366.837,"end":3390.132,"text":"謝謝昭偉我們數位部的官員請注意剛才昭偉很明確的這是會議的一個基本的原則不是說你們要講話就麥克風拿起來就講都要經過徵詢過主席的同意剛才我也贊成葛如荊委員跟寧國城委員的提案就凍結500萬提書面報告好 針對於"},{"start":3396.311,"end":3414.824,"text":"第二至三案如果各位沒有其他意見做一下處理稅出因為這可能是通案待會如果有堆疊累積的部分麻煩你們數位部自己去了解我們會幫你去了解堆疊到這邊這邊可能多少趴累積起來多少趴我們到時候你們自己要去估算那"},{"start":3415.928,"end":3428.738,"text":"這樣的因為這邊有油化委員跟整個葛如葛如軍委員的這個部分還有廖先祥委員那這個部分我們整體凍結5%好不好整體凍結5%提書面報告10個凍結對全部33億的好接下來我們處理如果各位沒有意見我們接下來處理4至11案"},{"start":3442.284,"end":3455.662,"text":"通難業務費下面的委辦費總共兩億八千萬餘元這個部分有提案的委員要補充林沛翔委員好再來林國成委員"},{"start":3457.904,"end":3482.752,"text":"謝謝召委本席主要提的是第6案第8案第10案跟第11案因為這個為什麼提出這些案子而且我刪除的那個刪減加凍結的金額都不小最主要的原因是因為上一屆也就是上個主委唐鳳的時候用這個所謂的民主網路的連結本席曾經在外交部民主基金會台灣民主基金會擔過民主網路的連結似乎都是比較承襲在外交上面的事情"},{"start":3483.132,"end":3502.803,"text":"比較不會說在數位上面用民主網路的連結本席實在百思不得其解所以對於這個民主網路的連結及創新這方面來講的話我會認為說這個運算機應該要酌情很審慎的使用因此本席做出刪減跟凍結另外一方面來講有關尾半費跟所謂數位韌性的應用"},{"start":3504.344,"end":3522.783,"text":"老師講對於社會認訓委員會的五大主軸名利訓練及應用戰略物資盤整及維生配送能源關鍵基礎之維運社會這個包山包海的東西然後我們這邊講的時候委辦費也不清楚有說明也不清楚所以本席還是堅持我上面列三儲跟凍結的預算以上"},{"start":3527.711,"end":3555.632,"text":"好 那待會發言順序是林國正委員李昆哲委員還有黃建華委員好 請林國正委員好 那個本席提的是第九案因為我在看這個強化通訊網路這個委辦的這個部分我認為它跟去年它跟去年也都差不多但是有一半是講不清楚講不清楚我相信連立法委員都"},{"start":3556.733,"end":3585.609,"text":"看不清楚那這個預算就代表是有問題的所以本席是建議啊濁山本來原來是1400萬委辦的這個部分全山但是經過解釋以後補充理由以後我建議是由主席這裡建議小山如何去山由主席來做裁解以上好 接下來請李昆哲委員"},{"start":3590.003,"end":3608.535,"text":"好 謝謝召委委辦經費總共編列預算2億8253萬元那即使立法院的交通委員會曾經多次的提案強調各單位的委辦費應該要力行尊潔減少非必要的委辦計畫"},{"start":3610.936,"end":3634.442,"text":"相關的委辦計畫他的未來的預計成果都應該要說明清楚等一下就看數位部怎樣的說明我們再來決定刪減的金額或者是凍結預算以上好 黃天豪委員好 謝謝主席那我們這一次我共提的是6、8、10、11也是針對委辦這部分那因為這個向下就提到說其實這個"},{"start":3636.403,"end":3653.34,"text":"名稱很大就建立全民數位任性連結民生網絡的這個向下都是在這向下裡面在刪減那這尾辦費到底立個尾辦給誰那要做什麼事情那這個經費未來要做什麼就是有什麼樣的成果我想因為在預算說明裡面都沒有講清楚那就要拿好幾億走那到底"},{"start":3654.315,"end":3676.195,"text":"大家concern的點就是說到底為什麼要花這個錢那你這個委辦是你們部內做不到的事情嗎還是說很多業務其實是各部會要做然後全部丟給數位部這也是我覺得各部會也要把這個權責講清楚啦所以我們提這個這幾個刪減案跟凍結案就是希望這部分待會可能請數位部要講一下說你們這個委辦費的後續要怎麼處理好不好就以上謝謝"},{"start":3677.702,"end":3701.915,"text":"好謝謝各位委員那我個人本人提的是第五案那也是一樣我們對於尾辦費是比較有反感的那當然有一些是必要的可是在尾辦費你們每年大概編了兩億七兩億八左右那這個部分我們發覺很多的民眾包括我們各位委員都覺得我們數位部在這幾年成立了我們對你們期待是很"},{"start":3702.955,"end":3721.672,"text":"很高的但是呈現出來的一個成果我個人覺得不如預期那到底研究這麼多的計畫委辦這麼多的一個計畫那為什麼沒有帶動你們的讓民眾或者委員的一個感受這個部分我覺得這是你們要去說明要去檢討的所以我提出來是3.350萬凍結10%好請社會部說明"},{"start":3728.951,"end":3748.738,"text":"欸部長你總要先說一下吧我們是不是會委員提案你先說一下你再找誰幫你補充好謝謝趙委員那個還有謝謝各位委員的指導那個我們這個因為牽涉到好幾個私我是不是請那個我們就個別先請任信室回答因為有些大部分是關數位任信的部分提案人你可以想"},{"start":3750.058,"end":3753.099,"text":"幫部長補充發言蘇阿部感謝立委對我們委辦案的關切今年度我們114年度大概有15個委辦案"},{"start":3764.923,"end":3776.939,"text":"所以那個任興建律師這邊的委辦案為例其實我們的委辦案基本上都是很實質的就是說對於那個消費者權益部分做這樣的一個檢視那例如說我們剛才那個"},{"start":3781.425,"end":3797.477,"text":"李委員這邊有關切到的就是像說那個5G的那個NSA的量測那基本上我們就是每年度會去針對整個國家各地區那大概700定點的話777,760個點還有就是對於那個我們22個省道國營的還有我們的國道高速公三鐵就高鐵台鐵還有那捷運"},{"start":3806.884,"end":3825.116,"text":"這些的民眾在這個通訊上面的品質的話去進行量測來把關讓我們的消費者能夠有一個參考的依據此外我們也針對民眾在無線電視的收視環境尤其是偏遠地區它不容易收視到無家電視台的無線電視訊號"},{"start":3827.117,"end":3852.491,"text":"所以我們就透過衛星商鏈的這樣的一個計畫將無線電視台23個頻道能夠透過衛星來發射然後到偏遠地區再透過改賽站來加以能夠改善我們偏遠地區民眾所屬無線電視台的這樣的一個品質另外就是為了要促進我們智慧國家的這樣的一個基盤"},{"start":3856.854,"end":3876.833,"text":"我們這邊的委辦的話基本上有的是電信機台廠環境中心有的是那個相關的像說中華電信公司為例他就是衛星商令的話他就透過他這個中華電信公司的衛星商令來提供所以我們的主要經費以任慶司的為例的話大概"},{"start":3877.273,"end":3889.218,"text":"一億多的這樣的費用有七成都是屬於無線電視的改善的這樣的一個委辦以上報告請說明稍微精簡一點那針對您提案第五項的部分新增的這個委辦的部分做一個簡要的說明"},{"start":3901.903,"end":3928.052,"text":"第一個我們新任是重更頻譜的屆期這個規劃計畫大概是針對700、900、1800這個馬上試機頻率要屆期要去做一些評估來去做後續的更迭那另外一個是數位創新關鍵技術設施的計畫呢它最主要是打造我國的公共城市呢跟跨境的數位流通平台來輔導地方政府與中央政府來推動公共城市嘛"},{"start":3928.672,"end":3954.438,"text":"另外一個是5家無線電視的數位頻道及公司的海內的衛星上鏈它其實最主要是提供偏遠地區的民眾的收視權益另外一個是新增AI新議題的趨勢及應用調查分析計畫這是為了建立我國AI治理框架的一個重要參考強化我國整體技術發展的國際接軌 以上報告好 這個廖先生講委員"},{"start":3956.946,"end":3977.287,"text":"好謝謝,我們事務部的同仁有大概說一下啦那其實我們一些細項好像跟我們的主標民主網絡的落差還滿大的啦把民主網絡灌上去好像什麼經費上面灌一個民主兩個字然後如果說立法院來動好像就是反民主我覺得好像有扣一個帽子在我們委員會的一個頭上"},{"start":3978.849,"end":4003.666,"text":"有民主我們就不能動這樣子那其實在委員會有一直講我們速發部的人員其實一直都不夠的嘛那有請我們速發部來增加編組足夠的人力然後減少委辦嘛那兩個應該是相對應的我們希望增加人力的同時我們委辦費應該也要適度的來精簡啦否則如果說我們速發部什麼事情都用發包委辦辦理的話我們乾脆改名叫"},{"start":4004.486,"end":4006.668,"text":"那我剛剛看了一下各個單項委員的三檢動議啦如果在同樣的像是不重複"},{"start":4022.72,"end":4039.792,"text":"加的話各項以最大額來加的話大概加起來大概是大概是一個一億的一個數額啦那我就建議建議主席就是委辦費這個大項就統三統三一億然後再由他們自己去調節這樣子以上好謝謝院長委員好那我想這個"},{"start":4048.601,"end":4062.734,"text":"差不多了差不多了那個針對這個通案的業務費委辦費的部分那我剛剛看了一下這個因為我們還是基於委員提案為一個基礎啦以基礎來處理那這個整體來講2億8253萬餘元這個部分那有提案刪除的委員呢從我的350萬1000萬"},{"start":4073.524,"end":4089.74,"text":"那林沛翔委員這邊的提案其實是總三八千萬因為你是向下累積的分在各個向下那是八千還是一千 我講這樣好不好那我們針對於這個是同案業務違反費三減兩千萬凍結百分之十提書面報告使得動之"},{"start":4098.174,"end":4127.191,"text":"各位委員有沒有不同意見八千號來 昆哲委員謝謝召委 剛才數位部有初步的一個說明當然我們委員會在過去也都一直要求相關的委辦計畫應該要例行尊嚴除非啊 能夠清楚的說明相關計畫的必要性以及未來預期的相關的效果"},{"start":4128.359,"end":4143.081,"text":"那數位部比較不一樣的一個地方就是說其實因為數位部成立不久很多都是各部會相關來支援成立的一個部會"},{"start":4144.042,"end":4163.592,"text":"所以在相關數位產業的部分這些公務員他們對他們自己的公務行政是很熟悉但是對數位產業的發展還是有他先天能力上的一些限制所以委辦的計畫因為數位是非常專業的我們說白了 產業是很專業的所以他們委辦的計畫會比較多一點"},{"start":4170.576,"end":4181.884,"text":"這個我們倒也是有限度的可以接受一定的這種經費的編列所以我具體建議是刪除1000萬凍結10%順便報告或解凍以上"},{"start":4187.028,"end":4198.025,"text":"好黃天豪委員好謝謝張委員那剛剛提到說上一輪提問的時候我就問說那到底今天數位部的這個預算項目下的民主網絡的連結跟民主韌性這個關聯是什麼剛剛說明沒有提到就這個項目"},{"start":4202.291,"end":4221.438,"text":"編的那你的標題是這個但是內容好像跟這都沒有關係你們剛剛的說明裡面也跟這件事情沒有關係所以我覺得這是第一件第二件事情是這整個委辦費編了兩億八千多萬那我所以覺得過去的執行率也不是很高那我覺得具體建議就刪零頭啦留兩億給你們那八千萬是要刪掉以上"},{"start":4222.638,"end":4246.713,"text":"好謝謝建行委員來我請介次長來再補充說明一下跟各位報告第一個當然我們邊在民主網路的創新發展大概基本的概念就是說我們要維持我們的社會的這個他必須要最基本最基本的這個通訊以及這個網路的連結要有所以大概有兩個重點是這個向下的第一個是通訊網路的維持那這部分"},{"start":4247.473,"end":4268.953,"text":"這個非常專業 原因是說他有很多技術的他不是一般的公務機關所以我們大部分都就像市長剛剛報告的是中華電信或者是電信技術中心那另外一個是前瞻性的規劃包括未來的評估怎麼重整包括未來的AI怎麼樣運用到通訊網路上面那這個其實是非常專業性學術性的"},{"start":4270.094,"end":4297.734,"text":"我們的確需要委辦的費用來支持也正如剛才這個林俊憲委員提的很多產業的發展其實我們要追上不是光靠公務機關同仁就可以做的所以跟各位委員這個懇請就是委辦費我們實在是需要那但是我們也理解各位委員對我們的鞭策那是不是可以按照林俊憲委員的這個提示我們就這個鞭策我們就我們就三減一千萬那這個凍結百分之十然後提書面報告後凍職"},{"start":4298.875,"end":4301.538,"text":"林培祥委員主席老實講我還是對這答案一點都不滿意我建議保留好"},{"start":4317.577,"end":4342.05,"text":"謝謝那我們接下來就是針對這個部分來處理啦那其實我的問題跟蠻多委員擔心的一樣當然第一個是實務上你們在2.就是現在要2億8的委判費可是在看今年為止現在已經是已經跨年了已經14年了所以你在113年預算到目前為止的執行率大概才58%"},{"start":4344.831,"end":4360.676,"text":"58%那我不知道啦這個月在請款有沒有請到60 70我不清楚啦多少啦到目前為止多少來你講一下講個%數我們禮拜二的時候才整個統整我們現在已經到98%了已經到98%了那為什麼給我們58%因為這個經費是34個機關在執行的那你上次給我們給我們58%是什麼意思"},{"start":4369.076,"end":4382.868,"text":"就是說事實上你10天以內或20天就可以執行到40%也就不簡單了好好沒關係沒關係到98%那是好事那第二個是你們要增加的委辦費其中有一個"},{"start":4384.158,"end":4410.251,"text":"叫AI現在很多東西掛了AI我們都先除掉看後面的字叫做新興議題趨勢及應用調查分析部長現在新興議題是什麼怎麼樣報告趙偉比如說用AI怎麼用AI打炸怎麼用AI來增加我們的一些政府的效率像這些議題你打炸費用很多確定是這一條嗎新興議題是開放性的"},{"start":4412.452,"end":4437.447,"text":"譬如說你把新議題丟什麼進去譬如說採購法譬如說採劃法民眾的反應然後分析之後給我們坦白講我們是蠻困擾這些的整個政府的機器你要丟什麼議題而今天可能羅志強三個是丟進去變成一個新興的議題然後要怎麼樣去分析我覺得這個東西太過抽象而且有點讓人害怕"},{"start":4438.047,"end":4457.658,"text":"那這樣好不好 針對這個我來處理一下啦 就是三減兩千萬好不好 三減兩千萬好 太少齁 那我們就保留院會送協商好不好 我們就保留院會送協商好 接下來處理第十二到第十五案 也是通案"},{"start":4459.638,"end":4466.862,"text":"業務費 一般事務費那我們提案委員有沒有要補充說明的好 林培長委員謝謝主席基本上來講我會認為說這575萬這個預算來講的話如果說以去年的功效來講"},{"start":4479.209,"end":4500.806,"text":"這個老實講在表現的平台上面其實成效很有限像說YT的訂閱數只有3500人不到那那個臉書的平均貼文互動數只有雙位數Instagram追蹤數可能比我們現在每個委員這邊的話還要少所以說我會認為這一般事務費上面基於尊潔政府預算以利開遊節援我會在這邊3.340萬以上"},{"start":4504.989,"end":4512.896,"text":"好 那還沒有委員要補充發言好 沒有發言 來 請你們說明一下因為我的書面寫得很清楚 你們一定說明吧好 數位政府司 來"},{"start":4528.889,"end":4551.708,"text":"謝謝委員 我們針對第12題的部分就是有一般事務費從600萬增加到增加了400多萬的這個部分那其實這裡面大部分都是因為我們之前的預算編列是由案件記酬然後現在因為那個預算科目我們覺得編到一般事務費比較合理 所以我們把它移過來那其實並沒有做大幅增加 其實整個"},{"start":4552.408,"end":4562.293,"text":"我們這一塊經費從9122還降到了7547所以其實是並沒有增加很多的以上好 林國誠委員現在是12案到15案我沒有提案 抱歉我看錯"},{"start":4574.58,"end":4595.943,"text":"好 針對這個第十二案到第十五案通案我們這個通案的一般數倍向下是六千四百五十八萬那我們看到各委員的一個提案那我們就有三減一千八百萬跟到兩百萬 三百四十萬 五十萬我們就三減五百萬"},{"start":4597.148,"end":4602.99,"text":"三減五百萬 凍結10%然後提書面報告使得動之各位委員有沒有其他意見折衷一下 五百差不多我們把所有提案委員的稍微balance一下沒有意見我們接下來往下處理"},{"start":4623.789,"end":4625.856,"text":"客戶自行調整啦 好不好"},{"start":4632.936,"end":4660.014,"text":"接下來處理16到31案一樣是通案我再提醒一下通案因為等於第幾目還沒開始審現在是通案所以待會再審到各目的時候可能還會有凍結會刪這是累加性的你們自己的財主單位你們自己去計算我不會幫你計算的第16到第31案通案業務費國外旅費這個部分提案委員蠻多的有沒有要補充說明的"},{"start":4660.851,"end":4681.164,"text":"好 林國成委員 林沛翔委員 羅志強委員 翁曉琳委員好 秋龍華委員第17案 我主張是刪1500萬但是經由溝通 為什麼要刪1500萬主要是這裡面出國有些寫得非常明確"},{"start":4682.465,"end":4704.407,"text":"幾例他到德國的這個漢諾威工業啊等等這些很清楚的那當然我們一定會支持那有一部分是寫的不清楚所以在這裡我還是建議不一定一定要刪到1500萬但是適度的刪是有必要的這是以上建議主席好 林沛翔委員"},{"start":4708.462,"end":4730.941,"text":"對不起喔還是我以前在民主基金會在民主基金會看民主這兩個字就覺得說真的貓膩很多要民主是網路然後說你去漢諾威我剛才問漢諾威幹嘛去看電腦展然後我會覺得說這個錢是不是這樣亂花國外旅費尤其是民主網路的連結那乾脆把這2000多萬全部分給民主基金會就好了嘛民主基金會的預算談不到3億耶那我們這邊動不動就2000多萬就不見了"},{"start":4732.95,"end":4757.294,"text":"那老實講民主基金還要補助其他的地方那跟從這個速發部的經費直接轉到外交部民主基金會去那還比較實在一點所以我覺得民主網路如果你們只去看這個所謂的電腦展那其實有很多其他的科目你們應該要編而不是編在這個民主網路說什麼什麼通傳通傳網路任性這點我覺得我覺得這個編列預算太腐爛了以上好接下來羅志強委員"},{"start":4761.892,"end":4768.317,"text":"我覺得速發部過去有一個民間大家非常熟悉的別名叫做出國發展部"},{"start":4769.505,"end":4796.651,"text":"那為了找出國的理由真的是都非常有創意連民主網路都編出來了你今天數位發展部到底跟民主網路什麼關係啊你數位發展部就是專注於今天數位發展的本務那什麼灌到民主以後就變成堂而皇之的正當性了嗎但是我今天講最根本的問題國人對於速發部所期待的打詐的業務速發部你教出了多少成績"},{"start":4798.035,"end":4802.529,"text":"你不專注於本業一天到晚搞一些所謂唐鳳式的那種"},{"start":4804.243,"end":4830.829,"text":"虛晃然後呢這個奢華式的這種所謂的做法那說真的我們今天為了來幫助人民來去監督人民納稅錢同時也勉勵今天速發部一起唐鳳門封啦不要再繼續用唐鳳這種所謂出國發展部的精神來去揮霍政府預算所以在這邊我們覺得應該要督促速發部"},{"start":4832.149,"end":4849.649,"text":"少浪費力氣在一些非本務的事務上多集中心力好好的把抒發部的本務本業以及人民最期待的打詐工作把它做好所以在這部分的話我是提案我們抒發部在114年出國預算就高達2220萬"},{"start":4852.873,"end":4868.429,"text":"那在34個中央機關其實排名第5名出國計畫高達20項超越外交部的15項所以因此才博得了出國發展部的美名所以在這個地方幫你把這個美名摘下來所以我的提案是减列1000萬元 凍結80%謝謝"},{"start":4873.994,"end":4890.321,"text":"好 接下來請翁小玲委員發言陳若光 羅志祥委員說得很好數位發展部已經不是重點在發展數位技術而是以出國文明"},{"start":4891.161,"end":4906.78,"text":"那麼本席在看到這次速發部所列舉的相關的國際會議的計畫裡面發現有些部分計畫是根本不需要速發部去參加的譬如講說這個涉及到數位經貿議題"},{"start":4908.342,"end":4932.484,"text":"台美安全對話會議等等這些出國考察這個部分其實經濟部或是其他的單位就可以去參加了台美安全對話會議這可能也是國安會或是外交部等等他們去談就可以了那麼書發部不曉得為什麼還要出席類似這樣的會議此外涉及到像網路民主"},{"start":4932.944,"end":4933.284,"text":"好 接下來請邱鶴華委員"},{"start":4963.555,"end":4972.497,"text":"謝謝主席 本席提的是第16案 一樣針對國外旅費速發部112年的旅費是1408萬113年的時候編了3133萬那114年的時候編了2220萬雖然跟去年比起來少了913萬 可是依舊高達2220萬還有速發部跟資產署編列的方式是一樣的"},{"start":4988.16,"end":5007.829,"text":"十九項出國的會議其中有十項的地點都只有敘述歐洲北美亞太地區超過百分之五十那本席是認為如果出國的計畫都只是這樣敘述的話那我們要怎麼把預算編給你們來執行所以本席這邊有提案檢列五百萬以上說明好謝謝委員好許智傑委員"},{"start":5015.699,"end":5025.406,"text":"謝謝主席其實書發部當然現在網路很興盛用視訊也很方便但是很多事情本來還是要碰面談嘛"},{"start":5026.445,"end":5046.219,"text":"你說那個出國的經費事實上拙減我是可以或是拙動我是可以同意的但是那個數量其實還是要少一點因為有一些的確是跟世界各國的一些串聯還是要見面談才會比較有效果所以我是建議說還是要多保留一點謝謝好 陳樹葉早委"},{"start":5053.069,"end":5076.321,"text":"好謝謝主席那就是抒發部是新成立的一個這個單位那當然就是在成立之初這個在出國旅費的編列上確實是有被外界來詬病那就我所知就是說在明年度在這個國外旅費的部分我們黃部長也有做一個"},{"start":5077.801,"end":5106.907,"text":"盤整之後做一些簡略了那是不是這個部分請黃部長等一下要做一個說明讓各位委員了解那當然就是說針對明年度的這些出國計畫他的一個必要性你要做一個充分的一個說明那另外許多委員對這個民主網絡之連結與創新這個名詞有很大的意見那本席是認為說這個應該就是在這個部門成立之初的一個預算科目"},{"start":5107.887,"end":5132.695,"text":"預算科目的就是這樣子的一個定調了那如果說大家對這個名詞覺得太廣泛有意見我是不曉得說之後在會計部門這個科目是不是可以再做一個適當的修正做一個更具體的讓大家可以知道對對所以是不是應該要把這個科目做一個修正這是我一個建議謝謝"},{"start":5134.496,"end":5141.189,"text":"好謝謝陳時委召委還有林俊憲委員還有單位李昆哲委員好謝謝主席"},{"start":5142.84,"end":5159.567,"text":"各位同仁可見大家對蘇發布出國這個都很有意見蘇發布的出國預算在過去幾年像去年今年今年原本編了3700萬在委員會也被刪除600萬變成3133萬那你明年這新部長"},{"start":5170.967,"end":5179.857,"text":"他又提了2220萬其實已經又比今年再減少30%了啦我認為就塑化部他的出國預算啦"},{"start":5181.314,"end":5207.055,"text":"在委員會這邊每次都受到委員很強烈的批判所以他的預算其實已經就明年來講也比今年有自己自己砍掉38了但是你今年的執行坦白講也不是很好你今年大概也有好幾張計畫不知道有沒有執行不知道今年的執行可以達到多少那待會也請部長那個說明一下"},{"start":5208.116,"end":5233.846,"text":"尤其你就明年的出國預算的相關部分更是應該要事先有對委員讓委員有所了解才對所以我們待會也請部長就你未來重點出國的諮詢幾項計畫也讓委員會了解一下好以上謝謝好李坤哲委員謝謝召委數位部我認為最認真的人是他們的國會聯絡人"},{"start":5241.043,"end":5255.866,"text":"但是你們其他的針對預算的溝通啊能力啊以及啊勤奮的程度啊真的是要多多的檢討部長也很認真啊部長你一上任啊你這個出國的預算就已經減少了20%主動自己就減少20%少了900多萬啊"},{"start":5262.937,"end":5280.913,"text":"這個針對出國的數位部已經有自己自行的一個初步的檢討第二說明也不夠清楚你們現在還有民主網絡師嗎你們現在不是叫數位國際師了嗎你們有跟委員來做說明嗎現在還一直在"},{"start":5282.654,"end":5303.144,"text":"在這個名稱上面大家一直在罵民主網絡什麼之連結你們現在已經叫蘇衛國際師了所扮演的角色跟內涵跟原則應該要更清楚的跟委員來做說明嘛我跟各位委員說明那現在他們已經自行減列了900多萬就是減少了20%但是我們現在他們有2220萬"},{"start":5308.487,"end":5323.111,"text":"那其實應該給部長以及相關的官員清楚的說明相關預算編列的必要性以及詳細的內容情形因為我們相關的說明這也是我們預算書編列的一個問題這個預算說明的"},{"start":5326.212,"end":5355.086,"text":"各位空間沒有那麼大沒有辦法一一的把相關的計畫都清楚的說明但是官員在委員質詢的時候針對預算的內容提出問題的時候就必須要清楚的說明尤其是相關的部長以下的這些負責的這些局處首長應該都有能力來做說明如果沒有能力你們還為什麼可以坐在這個職位上以上好我們先請社會部說明"},{"start":5357.447,"end":5370.434,"text":"謝謝趙委員 各位委員的確像剛剛委員提到就是我上任之後第一件事就檢討我們的出國預算那時候我也要求各司數把他出國未來的計畫報給我知道然後經過討論之後我自己刪掉30%在今年出國"},{"start":5377.898,"end":5398.008,"text":"這個保留的預算其實有一些蠻重要是因為我們很多很多的會議第一個必須要因為牽涉到基民比如說資安的演練資安的親自的討論牽涉到這檔問題或者是一些數位經濟的發展需要需要這個他們的主辦單位並不接受視訊所以我們只好現場參加"},{"start":5400.689,"end":5421.436,"text":"那另外就是說有很多時候這是一種外交因為如果對方邀請是一個部長級或次長級的一個討論的話我們也只好派出部長或次長去參加所以有幾個會議是由次長或是由我自己參加的一個FOC是一個部長級的會議包括跟美國國務卿的一個這樣的一個研討會所以這種會議有的時候是因為國際外交的關係"},{"start":5425.437,"end":5444.847,"text":"用數位的理由來去參加國際的這樣外交的會議現在有很多這樣的活動所以我們會需要保留一些經費對第一個是當然在在剛剛講AI數位經濟或者是治安韌性上面的一些交流另外就是說在我們的數位外交現在我們部裡面扮演一個很重要的角色"},{"start":5446.368,"end":5471.244,"text":"至於出國民主網絡這個名字我們可以拿掉科目可以改因為這個確實我上任之後也決定把這個名字以前叫民主網絡現在叫數位國際視他就是負責跟國際我們就是以他實際工作就是叫做數位國際視我這個有在行政院經過申請這是我大概二個小時的名字是不是再請國際視做簡單的補充"},{"start":5477.029,"end":5493.75,"text":"有一個剛委員的提案在出國預算的兵力部分的確剛委員有提到說目前的科技發展其實非常先進所以在數位發展部如果說對方的國際會議他是可以線上參與的部分"},{"start":5494.37,"end":5504.555,"text":"我們基本上就是線上參與比如像WTO的一些工作會議我們都是線上出席可是有些部分的會議的話必須就是會議主辦對方的一個"},{"start":5509.597,"end":5529.203,"text":"安排有些部分是沒有辦法說用線上會議那比如說像是亞太是我們那個亞太經濟合作組織還有包含說自由線上聯盟FOC還有我們非常重要的ICANN就是網際網路名稱子域這些東西都必須這些會議都必須是線上出席所以我們才編列"},{"start":5530.063,"end":5557.846,"text":"那另外剛剛各位委員也有提到說那數位經濟跟數位發展部有什麼關係那這邊跟委員各位報告因為在疫情的發展過程中各個國家都知道發現數位發展是對整個經濟方式非常重要的所以各國也積極在推動數位經濟相關的談判那跟委員報告包含說我們現在跟英國在談的這已經公告了英國的ETP這個協議已經是談到一個初步了"},{"start":5558.326,"end":5579.618,"text":"那後續另外還有一個包含台美21世紀裡面也有數位相關議題在裡面那當然其他還有非常多是其他部會主戰希望我們能夠去談的數位經濟相關議題那第三個部分呢就是因為有些的業務呢它是比較機敏的像我們在談的剛剛部長所說的"},{"start":5581.059,"end":5599.748,"text":"資安合作相關的議題那因為這些東西在還沒有真正談成之前其實我們沒有辦法說對外去做宣告所以有些預算的部分我們就會比較就是編法會比較說沒有去很直接的指明說我要跟哪一個國家去談以上說明"},{"start":5600.948,"end":5629.867,"text":"好的那我先請教一下這個簡單的問題我們剛剛已經我們上禮拜已經處理過的資安署資安署你的署內的預算編國外旅費多少錢因為你們是堆疊的你現在講半天我們資安要怎麼樣出國要出國但他已經編了你目前已經通過是多少錢這個不用猜吧你的資安署資安署目前我們上禮拜通過的是你出國國外旅費是多少錢"},{"start":5632.136,"end":5633.418,"text":"我們是700萬但是761萬但是我們"},{"start":5655.201,"end":5675.511,"text":"你們總共是多少七百六十一萬六千塊然後刪掉五百五百萬刪掉五百萬剩兩百多萬嗎是這樣嗎不要亂講啦好好好你去想一下好好想一下那個產業署產業署產業署來你出國預算我知道也有三"},{"start":5676.691,"end":5685.116,"text":"因為你們編的比較混你們目前剩下多少來講一下我們編324萬那被委員會刪除100萬所以我們變224萬OKOK好那那個其實齁這個我們包括兩個數算出來多少對剩下多少啦"},{"start":5699.85,"end":5726.181,"text":"剩下600多嘛就是這是一個背景啦就是說剛剛談到治安啊產業署這個很多的業務都要出國開會我們理解但事實上我們在審過兩個署的預算的時候都有留一下留一些出國的費用不是沒留啦那這樣好不好我們是不是先嘗試的處理一下好不好嘗試的處理一下三八七六二五十九年東捷四趴天安路明澤"},{"start":5727.711,"end":5741.924,"text":"我剛剛聽完我們出國發展部的補充說明之後我突然有點後悔啦我要道歉一下我覺得簡列的還不夠多我支持林國成委員的簡列案或者是汪小英委員的簡列案"},{"start":5743.761,"end":5768.32,"text":"結果搞了半天我們在那邊都是瞎忙什麼啊你跟我講民主網路現在又說民主網路不重要了那你全部憋以民主網路來去搞你的這個出國的這個所謂的正當性到底存在在哪裡你賣的是羊頭還是狗肉都沒搞清楚的時候你叫我們這邊怎麼去幫你去來去審你的出國的預算啊因為你的方向都搞錯了嘛就我們講的就是莫名其妙的一個單位"},{"start":5769.821,"end":5774.325,"text":"你速發部 我要先講完啦我要先跟大家講為什麼今天我們的速發部會變成出國發展部"},{"start":5781.448,"end":5807.177,"text":"因為在過去唐鳳的時候 到底不能完全怪你們嚴習唐鳳之風 我覺得是大大不可啦所以在這邊 我覺得我就支持我們林國成委員的提案減電一千萬還太少你今天好好的把你的所謂的那個抒發物本業做好的話來年我們看到你的業績之後的話再去斟酌是什麼樣是必要的所謂的出國的費用"},{"start":5807.737,"end":5829.408,"text":"就像剛剛主席也講了啊有些包括資安署或其他的各個底下的各個所謂的部門事實上出國預算仍然是在我待會還要講一個連資安維護費都搞了一堆所謂出國交流的一些項目在裡面你們真的就是出國發展部不喊你們真的有點對不起我們全國老百姓謝謝"},{"start":5830.689,"end":5838.333,"text":"蘇發部跟去年2024比起來已經有自己有大概砍30%但是提供另外一個思考"},{"start":5853.86,"end":5876.667,"text":"去年伏編的是比較嚴重所以是會嘩然那如果說以112年度其實速發部的出口預算的決算數才1342萬9千元那我可以給這個數字也給主席參考一下因為這個數字其實跟2025年編列的預算的落差也是蠻大的給主席參考"},{"start":5878.176,"end":5902.873,"text":"好 林俊憲委員好 謝謝主席剛剛部長那個說明部長你要講清楚因為我剛剛聽羅志強委員質疑那個民主網路你的剛剛說的意思是你現在改名為數位國際對啦所以不是你"},{"start":5904.554,"end":5930.161,"text":"就說你編這個預算的時候單位名稱還是舊的名稱啦那名稱還沒改他說叫做什麼民主網路網路師嘛那你現在這個你現在這個名稱已經改為數位國際師的意思啦你剛剛講的是這樣嘛所以不是什麼民主網路什麼重不重要其次那只要就是你名稱那你名稱這個部分應該讓我們搞清楚啦再來第二個齁"},{"start":5931.933,"end":5954.974,"text":"國際在蘇華部最主張刪預算的北京也是啦今年為什麼刪了六百萬那時候就是在委員會我們要處理掉但坦白講這個黃部長你算多少錢啦你自己送到編名的預算送到委員會來以前你自己又刪了九百萬對不對其實你就部長如果要"},{"start":5956.854,"end":5980.348,"text":"他可以照今年的預算送進來啊然後讓你砍啊他已經自己先砍了30%這點我們在審預算的時候大家考量進來啦也就是說他已經把自己的出國預算自己先減內900萬或者如果他預期會被刪他就灌水進來就好了 是不是這樣這普天也算是比較務實啦"},{"start":5982.009,"end":5997.649,"text":"那另外更早以前幾年度是因為那時候有疫情本來那時候出國預算都很少所以我是覺得如果以他自己就已經減劣了900萬這點我們應該在預算審查的時候也要納入考量"},{"start":6006.192,"end":6022.878,"text":"那今年度的預算在去年省的時候我跟林俊憲委員事實上是對於對於數位發展部的出國預算這麼多早就有意見了那所以去年在省今年度的預算的時候我們是要求要刪減"},{"start":6024.378,"end":6045.399,"text":"那刪減了之後呢今年看到明年度的預算第一個我覺得數位發展部沒有說明清楚是第一個應該在審預算之前要拜會各個委員要讓各個委員知道說你在這個出國預算因為去年已經備受質疑今年你有自治之民你已經非常的"},{"start":6046.84,"end":6060.828,"text":"橫頻的而且呢很扎實的去盤點過哪些是必要的出國計畫跟預算所以呢不必要的你已經自砍了900萬第一個這個你沒有說明清楚所以大家會誤解也不知道第二個"},{"start":6061.528,"end":6081.015,"text":"好 你自己刪減了900萬之後呢現在看起來又編了這2000多萬出來預計在明年度使用你也沒有到各個委員會包括我的辦公室你也沒有來跟大家說明清楚你編在明年度這2000多萬哪些是你盤點過後是必須要去的國際會議"},{"start":6082.355,"end":6095.333,"text":"所以才會有這些旅費 國外旅費那這個每一項計畫 每一個出國的項目每一個預算的一個細目我覺得這個都是可以公開透明攤給大家看而且必須讓國人知道"},{"start":6098.317,"end":6113.079,"text":"那這樣子大家才能夠支持你的預算那這兩點你都沒有說明清楚難怪現場現在所有的委員有質疑那包括我也有質疑啊你剛剛請你們的這個你說已經改名叫什麼民主以前叫民"},{"start":6114.181,"end":6133.56,"text":"以前叫什麼忘記啦 現在叫數位國際司啦那數位國際司呢 這個承辦單位你司長剛剛在說明的時候你也沒有說明清楚說明年編了這兩千多萬到底哪幾個部分是屬於我的那我明年要打算去哪幾個會議所以我需要哪些錢"},{"start":6134.981,"end":6155.465,"text":"說不清楚啦 你說不清楚人家要你支持就很困難了包括剛剛很多人都有提出要刪減的數額嘛你其實誠實拜託公開透明一一攤開告訴大家你明年度到底有哪幾項國際會議是必須要出國的必須要到場的而且是重要的"},{"start":6155.925,"end":6174.824,"text":"是讓台灣可以跟國際連結也參與在不管是資訊的互相交換或者是資安的系統互相的國際連結建置等等這必要的重要性的那你就要講清楚啦好不好不然我也會支持其他委員說拙簡喔好不好謝謝"},{"start":6176.405,"end":6191.02,"text":"好我想這個今天雖然這個預算數2220萬餘元但是我們所有的委員感覺200億的已經很激烈討論了快大半圈我覺得第一個啦說真的你們"},{"start":6192.422,"end":6218.559,"text":"這個數位部其實你們業務很抽象因為很高端嘛那我們可以理解可是你們事實上包括師長署長能不跟立委來派會能不來解釋能閃能躲我坦白講就交通部跟你們數位部來講我跟你們是真的不熟悉我不知道有沒有委員跟他們很熟的啦真的不熟悉啦所以也不知道不知道說真的啦對很多是沒有信心的原因是說"},{"start":6219.58,"end":6234.148,"text":"你們盡量不跟委員去談 審視所以事情在這邊肯定會比較複雜一點嘛那這個部分是不是 這樣好不好再統一 再說明一次我們來處理好不好 來你們還要再補充說明嗎"},{"start":6235.809,"end":6259.089,"text":"還是剛都說過不要重複喔這樣喔你們說明一下你們已經改了詩可是你們的預算預算根本沒有改是一樣民主網路連結為什麼裡面內容不是什麼數位國際連結呢還是說改假的怎麼回事還是明年會改"},{"start":6260.31,"end":6265.633,"text":"之前的預算書是比較早期就已經送進來數位國際市的市名是在今年的11月發布改過來的所以會有時間的落差"},{"start":6283.243,"end":6307.367,"text":"那第二個就是剛剛委員有詢問說那數位國際的業務有哪些會議是必須要去出席的那剛剛有跟委員包含說像我們自己主政主政的IPAD還有經貿相關的會議還有包含FOC相關還有包含我們ICAN這些都是"},{"start":6307.887,"end":6332.797,"text":"整個數位發展領域裡面大家非常關鍵而是必須要實體去參與的會議那所以這些會議也就是當初在籌編的時候部長重新再審視過一些不需要的我們就全刪了那目前所留下的部分都必須為了整個數位發展而必須出席的會議還請各位委員支持"},{"start":6334.056,"end":6343.899,"text":"好 那準備處理了啊 那個林國仁有什麼建議那個黃部長你是老實人啊這個民主兩制啊歷史淹人啊 你們就要檢討這個是蘇貞昌院長的時候民主 你們是用這種東西來闖關欸 以前是"},{"start":6355.595,"end":6369.524,"text":"一黨獨大的時候是可以這樣好不好你們難道連這個你拿來貼一貼那主計人員認為名字可以改項目不能改名字可以改你就拿來貼一貼這個問題不是解決了嗎"},{"start":6371.926,"end":6396.618,"text":"你們還送來什麼民主 你難怪人家說實在的 難怪人家有意見什麼叫做民主 跟整個資訊有關所以你們就很喜歡這樣不要再越說越多所以我在看我是同行部長的這部長根本都不知道你們這些幕僚就很喜歡在那邊拐彎抹角"},{"start":6398.223,"end":6423.525,"text":"對不對剛剛給你們凍結五百萬你們還在那邊囉哩巴嗦所以什麼叫做民主啊你們都解釋不清楚所以我還是建議真的我還是建議要改你們就盡快改不要假民主啊去做這些預算的闖關這一點說實在的我是看不過去啊我是人家刪一條對你們都很通融的但是我還是要建議部長啊"},{"start":6424.586,"end":6442.613,"text":"很有經驗啦 這遺傳喔 你要好好去研究一下這些人喔 過去遺傳都胡編得很厲害你如果要整理 你就整理一下我相信 數位部不是今年就結束啦明年還是會有明年再把民主送出來 我也主張全部都刪"},{"start":6443.633,"end":6452.758,"text":"真的來 林沛翔委員主席我們討論這麼久本席建議我們直接刪減800萬元凍結20%以上"},{"start":6456.735,"end":6480.494,"text":"好那我們針對於這個第16第31案到31案通案業務費國外旅費這樣好不好因為我們看到裡面3減從500萬到2000萬都有啦那我們是不是就3減800萬凍結20%提供去年的就13年的一個具體的一個成果跟明年的計畫使得凍資"},{"start":6483.458,"end":6490.114,"text":"來 各位等一下 我問委員好不好各位委員有沒有三太嫂是不是陳總理"},{"start":6492.443,"end":6509.48,"text":"我是覺得說我們還是持平來檢討啦因為我覺得說你跟他刪了800萬可能對他們的一些業務執行上可能會有一些比較摯愛難行我是今天說是不是我們就小刪200萬然後因為已經刪了30%了因為他們已經自刪30%了"},{"start":6513.724,"end":6537.352,"text":"我想對阿黃部長已經很務實了啦因為依然說教育股你的數字送進來當然讓你刪八百萬是是綽綽有餘啦我是覺得說我們就小刪兩百萬然後讓他們明年度的一個表現啦那因為我們應該下次還是會會再來有機會再審到啦做一個持平的建議 謝謝來 羅志強委員"},{"start":6543.177,"end":6566.182,"text":"我們針對於我覺得主席已經很客氣了啦我覺得三八百萬很客氣了如果說這個主席這個八百萬的客氣仍然不能夠讓這個書發部覺得可以接受的話那就保留我覺得政黨協商你就看會刪多少所以在這邊我是支持主席說三八百萬我覺得已經是很合理了那不然就保留嘛對 謝謝"},{"start":6571.024,"end":6586.672,"text":"你還有什麼補充說明嗎這一條可以處理啦我剛剛特別強調我們已經自己刪了九百萬去年是刪六百萬那我們今年自己先刪九百萬所以說如果九百萬再加八百萬就變成一千七百萬"},{"start":6589.053,"end":6604.819,"text":"那這樣好不好 折衷一下因為我們二輪 其他委員會可能還有要提 那是他們的後面再提那我們這部分能處理的 我們還是處理一下那針對於這個國外旅費 那我們這邊就3減500萬 凍結20%"},{"start":6609.882,"end":6610.542,"text":"科目自行調整使用"},{"start":6629.382,"end":6638.185,"text":"各位待會這樣發言的我們就稍微針對重點感覺有點舉步維艱走不太動的感覺接下來審查32到41案有10位委員提案林備長委員"},{"start":6654.593,"end":6674.491,"text":"謝謝主席本席提議的案子是在這邊提議比較多一點不過是針對我想針對第37案跟第40案來去做進一步的說明基本上來講講補助金真的過高我們這邊補助到五億六千萬在民主網路跟創新上面"},{"start":6674.591,"end":6693.624,"text":"然後另外一方面在強化AI網路主動性防禦到8600萬甚至我們這邊看從38案開始37 38 39基本上都是相對很驚人的數字而且全部都是講補助費本席認為這是過於腐爛所以說本席認為應該做出一定程度的刪減以上"},{"start":6695.831,"end":6720.049,"text":"好 接下來發言順序 林靜倩委員 李昆澤委員 黃建華委員 請林靜倩委員是喔 謝謝主席我也延續剛剛林佩祥委員的意見就是你編那麼多的一些預算 而且一些獎補助費但是我看一下你那個捐助計畫裡面並沒有相關杜絕詐騙犯罪問題的研究"},{"start":6721.01,"end":6744.219,"text":"我覺得這個應該是目前民怨最深的部分啦我認為重點應該是在這個地方啦那為什麼這個地方的問題研究請問是沒有納入還是你在別的地方啦大學請你說明一下因為國能關心的是到底能不能有效的處理打炸的問題北京也有體檢類啦我是體檢類5000萬凍結10%啦那再請你送報告謝謝好 李坤哲委員旅遊推廣管理"},{"start":6750.702,"end":6778.183,"text":"謝謝昭偉這個捐助的經費總共編列的預算是13億元那用途是為捐助團體辦理第三代互聯網分散式數位驗證推動架構還有無線電頻率合併相關干擾評估計畫也包含強化我國網路網際網路技術社群參與及觀測稀缺資源發展計畫等等"},{"start":6779.804,"end":6802.621,"text":"那捐助的對象也包含財政法人電信技術中心財政法人臺灣網路資訊中心等等那這個部分 數位部有來跟我做說明我是可以同意改動預算五千萬一個月內提說明報告"},{"start":6804.022,"end":6826.595,"text":"第三十四案是補助經費預算是六千零九十二萬這個部分社會部也來做說明就是說過去黑客松實際成果的應用包括建置全民參與街道改善平台導入建立高齡長輩為中心的照顧模式等等"},{"start":6827.395,"end":6840.673,"text":"那其實我看他們也有補助地方政府的部分那也協助地方政府協動數位轉型那我原本是提案凍結預算500萬數位部來說明之後可不予凍結以上"},{"start":6844.349,"end":6862.314,"text":"好接下來是黃建華委員再來葛如今委員好謝謝昭偉那我想這個獎補助費的部分我想大家對於補助地方政府大家是比較沒有意見但是我們看到各項的獎補助費光是我提的我們共提了37跟38這兩項就高達了這個8億左右8億8 9億那連包含說這個"},{"start":6867.535,"end":6871.543,"text":"建置雲端核網提升行動通信網路認証計畫那還有這個39的晶片驅動產業創新再升級這個補助費裡面就"},{"start":6877.782,"end":6907.282,"text":"大家想知道說到底數位部你的政策的目標是什麼那你提的這個計畫裡面這是你你的本職學能就是你們本來部門的業務呢還是說這必須要交給別人來處理那還有像這個這個晶片驅動產業創新再升級這部分這是你們的業務還是經濟部的業務就跟C之前講過就是數位部業務好像包山包海什麼都丟在你這邊來然後什麼都用這種繳補助費包在包在裡面那我要講其實前面包含委辦費已經也也都給也給你們了那結果你們現在又"},{"start":6907.942,"end":6935.695,"text":"放了這麼多的獎補助的東西那這個獎補助費你們要補助哪些團體哪些公司或哪些這個計畫那達到什麼成效過去做得好不好那另外剛剛小偉也提到說我們提了這麼多案的凍結或刪減也是因為說大家最關注的是說你們對這個詐騙集團的技術要怎麼樣去克制要怎麼樣去控制但在這些獎補助費裡面你花好幾億在做這個事情但好像還是沒有成效因為大家最"},{"start":6936.82,"end":6960.343,"text":"回到核心問題啦大家對數位部最核心的目的還是希望你們能夠在網路詐騙這一塊在數位詐騙上面能夠有一些成效但是如果這個計畫真的給你們都做下去了那能夠達成嗎還是不行還是這個錢是要做別的事情好這是我覺得大家提了這麼多凍結啊或提了這麼多刪減最主要原因所以在刪減的部分我覺得我們還是蠻堅持希望說這個數位部能夠尊嚴然後把這個項目說明清楚以上"},{"start":6961.772,"end":6982.441,"text":"好 各位謝謝昭偉那這邊我echo一下第37案這個Mocon的這個技術做多網路的連結其實我在質詢的時候就有提過現在全世界都在做近地軌道衛星但是我們為什麼我們的多網路的連結的預算竟然比近地軌道衛星的計畫的預算還高"},{"start":6984.562,"end":7013.305,"text":"那遇到這種極端的狀態或者是極端的事件的時候靜地軌道衛星的安全性跟韌性應該更強啊那為什麼我們的韌性計畫竟然是擴張上個世代或既有世代的東西而不是做下一個世代或者是各國都已經在增列的靜地軌道衛星的計畫呢這個是也希望了解的那這裡面呢講做預算的費用甚至高達5億所以這個應該要說明一下那第40案呢"},{"start":7014.145,"end":7036.053,"text":"這個AI網路主動式防禦的關鍵技術研究計畫我想提出這樣的計畫我覺得還是予以肯定因為在HICOM還有一些這個資安的會議上都有看到部長都有親自出席還有很多的官員也親自出席那人工智慧運用在這個資安的防禦或者這個主動式或被動式的這個策略上其實各國已經有"},{"start":7037.013,"end":7050.722,"text":"在這塊已經開始做了那我們在民間或者在政府相關的這個部會單位裡面也有接觸但是呢這個計劃書我們有跟相關單位要來仔細研讀了以後我們也認為"},{"start":7052.003,"end":7067.051,"text":"有不够清楚的地方首先是在于KPI或者是目标目的的设定到底侦测的准确率要达几%供给回应的时间应该要缩短到多少的时间等等的具体目标我们是没有看到的"},{"start":7067.691,"end":7091.984,"text":"甚至裡面還是有購買一些硬體比如說NVIDIA的這些H100等等的這些顯示的這個運算但是這個運算呢就我們的理解政府應該中央要有一個整體的編列而不是這裡買一組那裡買一組到時候大家實際上的算力反而是更分化的這個這樣的做法是不是有經過更細緻的評估跟需求這個要了解一下"},{"start":7092.984,"end":7114.074,"text":"另外呢我們做這個AI網路的資安的這個技術不管你是sentence bird或者是graph neural network到底你這個用的是主要哪一個技術成熟度如何有沒有最小可行性的驗證已經在執行了或者國際上的成功的案例有沒有佐證我們在這個計劃書可能也還沒看到"},{"start":7114.874,"end":7128.83,"text":"另外在人力配置的部分還有我們剛剛提到這個獎補助的部分到底有沒有第三方來協助進行評估驗證這個也是我們非常關注的因為資安跟數位本身它是黑盒子"},{"start":7129.531,"end":7158.835,"text":"或者說它這是程式碼也好啦或者看不到摸不到的東西也好我們認為在這裡面的研發跟預算都應該要跟外界的單位不管是開放透明的組織也好或者是這些像G0V或者一些資安的協會等等我們應該要跟外界有更透明的這個連結藉由第三方的這個協作我們才能夠確保這樣子的一個人力或者獎注的分配是合理的"},{"start":7159.235,"end":7187.897,"text":"否則的話我們是政府內部自己來評估自己來分配我們怎麼能夠確定會不會到時候重南輕北重北輕南或者是有可能怎麼樣的一個不平均的劃分這個也希望能夠予以說明否則的話我想這樣子數位我們都強調這個transparency強調這個open但如果我們在預算上面我們沒有看到這樣的transparency跟openness我想這樣的一個預算可能我們也是會有非常多的意見謝謝"},{"start":7190.336,"end":7210.392,"text":"好 謝謝各位委員 來我們順序說明好 謝謝那個趙委員還有各位委員的指導那個我簡單的說一下我們這個講補助費主要是我們下面有三個重要的這個法人那一個就是TTC 一個是TITANRONIC然後這個就是治安院那有一些剛剛講的問題的研發都是在這三個單位要幫忙執行"},{"start":7211.132,"end":7229.29,"text":"那這個強補助會主要是讓這三個法人能夠去幫整個樹花部甚至幫整個政府在做這方面的不管是政策推薦或技術的研發那我是不是細節 因為這裡面牽涉到好幾個單位我請任信司跟訴證司還有資源司這邊來做扼要的說明"},{"start":7235.156,"end":7256.217,"text":"任信司就我們立委關切的這個補助案來看的話基本上跟委員報告就是在我們大概以任信司這邊來講的話我們著重在陸海空的通訊任信的這樣的一個建制那主要的這個計畫裡面有10個補助案基本上都像剛才我們"},{"start":7257.458,"end":7282.105,"text":"部長所講的也是李昆哲委員所提示的就是我們補助我們轄下的財端法輪來強化在這個通訊任性方面的一個能量那這一個葛委員有關切到說我們這個這個MOKEN這個網絡行動這個5GC的這一塊那跟委員報告就是基本上確實當前的未來的這個趨勢有望在低軌衛星但低軌衛星基本上它還是"},{"start":7282.825,"end":7310.851,"text":"還是目前還是只有少數的業者提供那我們會有這樣一個雲端5G基本上它就是一個應用極端企業下能夠提供給我們的政經級的機關能夠有強化它的一個通信韌性那歐企這個雲端會是將來有可能在極端的情況下有可能會把這個5G的這個行動網路能夠透過海外的這樣的一個雲端的核心系統來支持我們國內的行動通信"},{"start":7311.431,"end":7335.27,"text":"那所以即使這兩個是扣在一起也就是說它也是有應用到低軌衛星也有用到雲端的這個5G的網路的通訊來強化我們的整個國家的通訊韌性以上先就這樣補充報告那這中間就是會用會補充比較多的這一塊就是因為明年要著重在屍體的這樣的建置 以上報告"},{"start":7338.012,"end":7358.91,"text":"我記得沒有錯 上禮拜在審資安署的時候資安署已經有一筆很大的補助款已經給資安院了為什麼這邊重複編列為什麼這邊重複編列 記得嗎我記得那一次的時候有一個桌面還寫資安院院長跑過來解釋說你們到底做什麼業務的後來資安署那天我們就把資安署那筆經費補助款給過了那這邊為什麼剛剛是部長講的說要重新再補助資安院 為什麼要這樣做"},{"start":7364.636,"end":7377.494,"text":"這會不會重複編列是同一個科目嗎是同一筆預算嗎好這個部分補助資安院的獎補助有多少錢沒有不理這一塊補助給資安院進行AI主動式防疫那個是8600萬"},{"start":7380.216,"end":7400.878,"text":"8600萬對跟資安署那個補助他的一些那個是兩個是不同這是一個科技計畫四年期的今年是第一年這樣好那我們資安院麻煩你說明一下就是整體的從產業署資安署到數位部三個單位你到底接收多少資源啦讓我們知道一下"},{"start":7402.299,"end":7421.667,"text":"好 謝謝趙委還有各位委員那我們治安院是行政法的所以它不像政治官員有預算原格的經常這個基本需求所以從112年我們掛牌到成立第二年大概每一年補助費補助費的話大概是像113大概是4.5億左右"},{"start":7424.868,"end":7444.845,"text":"我們大概4.5億來支持相關的工作那跟委員報告就是說資安院當時立法院通過的條例裡面我們有幾個重要的任務除了協助政府的資安以外那第一個很重要列在第一條就是有關比較前瞻的一些資安的技術的研發"},{"start":7445.606,"end":7474.89,"text":"那部分並沒有在剛剛委員講的資安署的那個補助計畫裡面那除了這個以外我們還協助一些產業所以資安院剛剛委員關心的包括這個AI的相關的技術的研發那葛委員給我們很多指導因為這個是一個全世界的趨勢那商業性已經有了我們不會研究但是呢部長認為說我們國內不管是一般的產業資安或資安產業大部分都是比較屬於中小型的企業所以資安院呢"},{"start":7475.79,"end":7502.083,"text":"有內部的人員自行委外來開發出來以後除了協助政府以外也可以協助產業也可以做技術移轉我想從這個角度來希望我也能夠支持這樣的計畫 謝謝好 那誰知道資安院4.5億的組成來自三個單位的個多少來 那個資安署 謝署長來自 你補助多少你們三個要把4.5億湊齊讓我們知道在哪裡來 你這邊有給他多少不管透過計畫 透過什麼"},{"start":7503.664,"end":7531.758,"text":"我的給他的補助款是1.211048000元就這樣的有沒有什麼透過其他計畫的有委外案但是委外案是公開招標所以資安院也可以來競標這樣子那產業署有沒有跟召委報告跟委員報告我們目前也是招標是2500萬也是用招標的方式那資安院招標的方式會固定給他們"},{"start":7532.638,"end":7552.516,"text":"欸 不會 那個是看但是每一年剛好他飆到 是不是這樣欸 對 他跟那個公園約不是好好好 我知道 我知道技術不錯 好好好 技術不錯不是 就是他跟公園合作來 成功了你們目前為止只說明了大概1.5億啦還有3億在哪裡 誰說明一下不是 他錢到底在哪裡啊"},{"start":7559.522,"end":7575.293,"text":"等一下這麼多人舉手話錢都藏在你們幾個市裡面是吧來統一說明一下還剩下3億在哪裡報告主席那個我們本部裡面全部捐114年捐助給治安院的是3.4億耶"},{"start":7577.354,"end":7592.765,"text":"好 那這樣說明完畢 後面不用舉手了這邊3億多 可是我覺得今天預算省來這邊我們說不分黨派 講一個預算的特性你們其實已經固定要給這個行政法人多少錢"},{"start":7593.866,"end":7622.252,"text":"可是有一些是常在譬如說具體的補助館給他行政費用有一些常在計畫裡面你都講補助你知道嗎理論上是招標的可是你每一年其實已經變成就你來我覺得這個對我對委員來說這個東西你要不然你就編個4.5億乾乾脆脆你就給他他業務這麼多你要不然就給他嘛反正預算這樣可是你長東長西我們標什麼案子標什麼案子後面咧"},{"start":7623.632,"end":7641.064,"text":"是大家所有的溪流都是流向那裡我是覺得對我們來講常常講說長預算或者不清楚你這樣的其實對我覺得對我們委員認真看預算的時候因為其他預算根本看不出來到你這邊來我是個人這樣建議那這樣的"},{"start":7644.5,"end":7670.775,"text":"我們來處理一下好不好 因為其實就我個人的看法 因為違犯費2.8億 就委託別人做強補助事實上比違犯費更放鬆的 就丟給別人丟給別人去做的那這邊是13億多了那我想這樣的好不好因為我剛剛看到有三千幾百萬幾千萬到兩億的都有那我這邊是不是"},{"start":7673.051,"end":7699.834,"text":"嘗試的做這樣的一個處理針對於這整體的預算整體預算3減1億元凍結10%但是三減凍結的是給直轄市政府跟縣市政府補助的除外這6092不動不刪其他的部分你項目去移各位來 阿尼亞委員"},{"start":7702.899,"end":7728.15,"text":"因為光是38案跟37案合計起來就刪了四億六千萬了這是個別的案子不是說什麼這案他刪兩億多我刪一億多是這兩案合計起來就刪了四億六那再加上有其他的合計起來其實數量蠻高的所以我覺得如果要統三的方向的話應該是我覺得一億有點太少了我覺得至少再一億再一億啊"},{"start":7729.179,"end":7743.913,"text":"好 建豪委員有具體建議 黃沛翔接下來林俊憲委我本來是講3億凍結30%那我建豪都講了 我支持建豪的想法3億再凍結30%因為老實講 凍不凍講補助金 凍不凍這些數位任性東西你這解釋東西說真的 所有人都疑問"},{"start":7750.999,"end":7776.44,"text":"如果是3億我們就輕輕鬆鬆這樣出去的話我們不知道該怎麼跟大家交代你知道嗎不知道怎麼跟選民交代不知道人家說為什麼他們可以3億多這樣花在這邊上面來講你們也知道這黑盒子剛剛寶博也講是黑盒子那黑盒子你們又沒有辦法來說服我們的時候那我們該怎麼做講補助3億多對不起是3億多然後我們所有人都相信我們會嚴格把關"},{"start":7779.338,"end":7780.499,"text":"所以其實講兩億 我本來想說砍3億 凍結30%以上好 林俊賢委員"},{"start":7788.576,"end":7816.474,"text":"謝謝主席那個部長 那個大委也請主席回答一下部長 那個主席剛才有說你們既然大部分有4億多都是要補助給那個資安院嘛但是其實在組織法律上你是不能直接編例上就指定要給他啦就這邊的相關的法律大致你要跟委員說明一下你可以這樣編嘛第二個 你說13億裡面其實你給各地關政府就有6億多了嘛"},{"start":7817.535,"end":7832.629,"text":"是不是這樣那主任你剛說這個部分不能就不動嘛6千萬6千萬嘛6千萬那其他的你的主要業務大部分都是委託給資產業嗎市役多嗎"},{"start":7838.459,"end":7860.312,"text":"只有三個單位TDC還有TWNICTWNIC就是負責網絡的所以你這個部分其實也應該要講清楚因為他委託的基本上也等於是政府單位之間的互相委託所以我想就他業務的執行我們應該算那個比例"},{"start":7862.412,"end":7889.54,"text":"你給他砍個兩億我看是我們委員會從來沒有刪那麼高比例的主席你這樣一採他的業務還能推嗎對不對基本上我們當然希望能夠你們不要浪費不要亂做事情但你如果刪到他根本基本業務都沒有幫我推動那你還要求他能夠做出什麼樣的績效來所以我是覺得第一個你先就主席剛裁定的如果刪一億的話那部裡面的意見是怎麼樣"},{"start":7891.082,"end":7894.711,"text":"你可以接受嗎你要先講這部分啦好 謝謝好 何俊頓委員"},{"start":7898.561,"end":7921.241,"text":"好 謝謝主席 大家好其實對於這個數位台灣未來的一個建制其實大家對數位發展部實在是期待很深那因為期待深就會有要求那也會嚴格檢視那我覺得數位發展部真的要更積極而且要更像的來跟各位委員說明那如何來爭取大家"},{"start":7921.761,"end":7942.071,"text":"支持你的預算那像這一個預算裡面就如同剛剛其他幾位委員講的第一個我們保留給各直轄市縣市政府的補助這個我們當然OK一定要全力支持第二個一開始你們也沒有明確的說明說其中有多少錢是給我們的資安院其實你可以"},{"start":7942.611,"end":7962.159,"text":"非常公開的說資安院本來就是我們政府捐助成立的行政法人他的位置他要做什麼事情其實是很必要而且重要的尤其現在我們在數位台灣裡面又非常重視所謂的資安那在委員會的質詢裡面我一直很強調第一個資安"},{"start":7964.5,"end":7981.059,"text":"全台灣從中央政府到地方政府各行政機關的資安體系的建置如何能夠有效的防禦所謂的不管是這個駭客的攻擊啦或者是呢境外勢力的惡意的攻擊等等"},{"start":7981.519,"end":7999.947,"text":"那這些都需要人需要經費那這個我們要人之前也要有經費這個我覺得你要先講清楚為什麼那麼一大筆錢必須要去講補助給資安院或者是其他的各行政機關這第一個第二個我們的這個預算裡面的各個項目"},{"start":8004.273,"end":8022.601,"text":"計畫內容是不是有說明清楚包括我剛剛講的資安以外我們有很多的要去建置一個這個資訊體系尤其我們現在正在分10層進階式的在佈建台灣全國性的一個資訊的一個脈絡"},{"start":8025.382,"end":8041.974,"text":"那這個資訊脈絡我覺得裡面你們的計畫裡面還是沿用過去什麼民主網絡啦或者是其他的你們覺得跟現在的計畫預算或發展的方向如果需要微調的地方我覺得你就要在我們現場要講出來你們未來這個預算邊境去那執行面是怎麼樣的微調精進能夠更符合這個預算執行的效益"},{"start":8051.46,"end":8080.667,"text":"那這樣子大家會支持你的預算那像剛剛主席在財市要刪減一億那如果這個預算被刪了一億之外你們的運作如何運作那影響的程度會影響到哪裡是不是會讓一些業務跟計畫跟一些資安的問題會自愛難行去推動這個我希望部長跟我們相關單位的首長是不是可以趕快講清楚好不好我們一定會支持好不好"},{"start":8081.684,"end":8082.512,"text":"好 葛珠君委員"},{"start":8084.689,"end":8111.63,"text":"我想這邊是很欽佩這個執政黨的委員都是非常公正公允的在看尤其這個預算真的是大家都在盯著也希望可以說明清楚我這邊只有兩點補充就是所以我也希望公允就是說如果這兩點能夠說清楚的話我當然也可以跟本黨的委員說是不是少一些第一個這13億發出去給這三個單位他們能不能再轉發"},{"start":8112.731,"end":8141.433,"text":"他能不能再轉發不然你發出去了他再轉發那他再轉發再轉發再轉發發到哪裡我們都不知道啊這個如果可以或不可以講清楚這是第一個第二個轉發給這些單位那他們的人員有沒有進適任性查核因為資通安全的計劃執行的人力跟單位都應該要適任性的查核這一點會不會做就這兩點問題謝謝"},{"start":8145.731,"end":8156.142,"text":"好林佩祥委員好既然何信存委員特地講林俊傑委員特地講為了保持委員會中心跟委員會的和諧本期願意改成1.5億到凍結10%"},{"start":8161.806,"end":8171.371,"text":"好那這樣好不好因為討論已經蠻久的那我針對於本案通案獎補助費13億6781萬餘元我們就3減1.5億凍結10%但是其中對直轄市政府的補助對各縣政府的補助政府機關相關的補助6092萬餘元除外"},{"start":8191.135,"end":8216.394,"text":"趙偉給部長回應一下啦好不好剛剛我們這個大家的問題部長回應一下講清楚啦部長報告那個趙偉這個工作其實剛剛講我們現在講三個單位我先回答各位的問題就是說第一個我們那個經費下去是三個單位自己執行然後第二個就是說那個有關於這個查核我們資安院的資通工作人士會查核所以這個這是對對對"},{"start":8219.136,"end":8219.536,"text":"來針對委員的疑問誰來回答一下"},{"start":8247.014,"end":8263.37,"text":"好委員我可以發言那個跟委員還有各位報告資安院的所有同仁全部都經過安全查核那我院長是要做特殊更嚴格的查核那主要還是我們有執行一些敏感性的東西那第二個"},{"start":8264.071,"end":8286.175,"text":"在專案成立以後我們交友會的各會委員很關心說我們一定要培養我們自己的能力所以呢我們所有的計畫都是我們的同仁很優秀的同仁年輕人自己在研發自己在研發自己在開發那這個部分呢也剛剛這個各會委員也特別關心那我就這兩點說明謝謝好 安委員"},{"start":8296.508,"end":8307.913,"text":"是 其實剛剛聽了院長的說法其實還是不清不楚現在這個錢基本上是給資安院對 那資安院裡面本身它就是自己要有研發的能力嘛你現在變成說是這個裡面內部又有各個不同的計畫"},{"start":8312.795,"end":8331.024,"text":"那這個計劃怎麼可能會是用一種在補助的這個方式去做那勢必就是說你們可能會不會未來把撥給自然院的錢然後又其中又分了其他的子計劃給其他的研究單位去做我想葛委員剛剛想要問的是這個部分或是給其他的民間團體去做"},{"start":8332.165,"end":8356.144,"text":"好 我再說明一下這個資安院有一批非常優秀 年輕的工程師所謂 那我剛才講過是因為我們不是政府單位 我們不能編公務預算也沒有基本需求所以就靠這個每一年部跟屬根門這樣的補助計畫或是我們需要去公開競標那丟到跟委員報告 所有的計畫"},{"start":8357.365,"end":8383.399,"text":"由部裡面撥到資安院全部由資安院的一些像我們的前瞻的技術的工程師自行研發自行開發沒有再轉報告給其他法人我想這個部分很清楚我利用這個機會在這個順便希望委員能夠支持這樣一個年輕那希望能夠透過技術的開發來協助我們政府機關協助我們的中小企業把資安產業跟產業資安造謝謝"},{"start":8387.625,"end":8411.781,"text":"好 這個因為資安院我是建議所有的委員可能未來需要你的KPI就是說我很強我很壯我很棒然後但是一切不能檢驗這個沒有辦法4.5億好你說你剛開始那我真的很想問你譬如說113年你4.5億你的具體的成果能夠發展什麼當然因為你要說明就可能書面說明那但是你可能未來"},{"start":8412.842,"end":8433.208,"text":"未來因為我剛剛已經說了你的預算來源有正面的補助有側面的假標案標完之後對這是公開招標但是一定你得標像這種的部分納入你每一年的一個收入部分我是覺得你值得去研究你們要補助一個單位就明著補助給他們去做就好了好不好"},{"start":8434.068,"end":8459.206,"text":"那這個部分我們是不是再折衷一次啦再折衷一次啦3.1.2億啦好不好3.1.2億凍結10%請你治安院這邊提出具體的說明使得動之好不好我們就各位委員先這樣好不好好不好3.3億剛剛這個主席英明已經說是1.5億我們當然好多蠻認同的沒關係啦就再讓我再裁示一下好不好就1.2億凍結10%提書面報告使得動之"},{"start":8464.363,"end":8490.895,"text":"好但是一樣一樣補助地方政府的6092是除外沒有動也沒有刪所以科目的那個挪移不准動這個就這樣其他科目自行調整但是不准動6092好吧給地方政府的好不好那我們接續處理好吧繼續啦繼續往下走休息五分鐘啦"},{"start":8495.061,"end":8495.742,"text":"沒關係 沒關係 沒關係"},{"start":8519.565,"end":8536.834,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8538.187,"end":8544.509,"text":"7.6億我跟你講這個部分也是我非常希望可是不可能就不可能"},{"start":8561.604,"end":8576.525,"text":"本來那個時候部長就說要治安省你就編一條就直接給文化部也這樣可是他不要啊部長來以後就覺得說就那一筆錢你就明明白白的去捨不得那些基本需求"},{"start":8578.473,"end":8599.069,"text":"然後他有些計畫要競標我還要去標三十五萬一個兩百五十個人全部都是工程師你不給他這個預算因為我們不是剛剛講的公共計畫沒有基本需求啊我也沒有那個人事會啊我就要靠組織計畫"},{"start":8604.233,"end":8609.656,"text":"這個就是我們在下包的法人馬,台灣馬又不太一樣"},{"start":8629.31,"end":8630.891,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的中間餐廳。"},{"start":8647.85,"end":8649.331,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":8664.736,"end":8674.542,"text":"王長宇啊 出國一天走誰啊 王長宇你什麼都不可以接受你啊 你是接待人權嗎第一個 不用接 第二個 別做人家講話阿伯來 要通 阿伯來 要通 阿伯來"},{"start":8697.858,"end":8702.06,"text":"我們也不熟 比較比較我們怎麼會熟在公務員也不熟 因為公務員根本對社會產業也不熟"},{"start":8726.451,"end":8731.734,"text":"那些平庸車啊那些貨車啊那些貨車啊那些貨車啊那些貨車啊那些貨車啊"},{"start":8757.748,"end":8766.971,"text":"如果隨時時間差 你看來台南溫暖派通的 也沒有啊因為年多的人都在說溫暖 國際溫暖現在溫暖 他們覺得溫暖派通太靠臨了"},{"start":8774.754,"end":8780.819,"text":"有没有达到啊?你找的啊?你找的啊?你找的啊?你找的啊?"},{"start":8794.773,"end":8806.169,"text":"我之前都沒有習慣,都沒有愛上我,所以我常常忘了你怎麼會這樣,很可憐,很好的事情那些都要想清楚要有公文嘛,要順利沒關係,如果沒有的話,我開廟"},{"start":8812.139,"end":8813.88,"text":"這時侯去找人家?"},{"start":8813.88,"end":8816.723,"text":"說他先去立委 立委消息一番?"},{"start":8816.723,"end":8833.556,"text":"立委 最近 最近查了一遍就有了 最近最後一遍就有了沒有啊 上一遍啦 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊 沒啊"},{"start":8838.383,"end":8840.991,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":8850.295,"end":8852.536,"text":"他都跑出來了,就這樣就好了"},{"start":8873.88,"end":8886.277,"text":"當時他們就比較辛苦,這次放他在那裡抱著就好了這三個是沒有跟其他人說沒有關係,他們要有三個是跟其他人說他自己要靠近,我們都要靠近對啊,我也是有什麼關係,只是他說...我也沒時間去跟他了啦"},{"start":8890.422,"end":8908.372,"text":"你就叫建隆去推就好我已經做好可以做了啊我們就做就好 阿鳳你自己全背都要你自己鑽點這樣就好了這樣好不好對啊 我們沒辦法去跟那個玩你到底怎麼可以跟他去不是 阿鳳你就要推 要推建隆你用這個我們沒辦法去推他每天在那裡裝藥叫建隆去 建隆也要負點責任啊"},{"start":8925.924,"end":8935.174,"text":"好請各位就座好我們繼續處理預算"},{"start":8939.605,"end":8957.781,"text":"第42案到第45案也是通案業務費一般稅務費向下的媒體政策及業務宣導費經費不多但是我們有幾位委員提案林國成委員我要請教一下部長"},{"start":8959.178,"end":8977.331,"text":"你這個媒體政策及業務宣導會你要編名就編多一點上不上下不下265萬他是要做什麼是揚網金嗎或者要做廣告你們做什麼廣告"},{"start":8978.732,"end":9001.569,"text":"所以這個部分我是認為沒有必要因為你們要好好去做一下那邊這個預算也不是電視廣告也不是什麼那你們也沒有必要去做廣告啊所以本席認為這是沒有必要的東西雖然通案啦但是我認為你們這個是要做什麼所以我主張要全部刪除好"},{"start":9006.516,"end":9017.48,"text":"好那接下來我本身也有提案第44案的部分那我提案最主要是這樣也是幫你們第一個在你們這個預算在113年編了175萬那明年我們在審查114年的時候你大概加了90萬變成265萬有增加"},{"start":9029.364,"end":9055.278,"text":"那第一個是說你增加的部分你要做什麼要增加在編預算的起新動念就是說我今年或去年編的實在是不夠用所以我要增加一些做新的計畫可是倒過來看你112年開始你編的預算執行率只有25%就是那一年就作廢了大概只花了大概就是四五十萬只需要四五十萬啦那當然我是肯定嘛就是有要用的去用嘛"},{"start":9056.318,"end":9082.216,"text":"那113年呢這個今年度目前我們拿到11月以前的資訊是用了28%28%所以我個人是覺得我們要幫你去調整一下預算因為第一個你連續兩年的預算只用大概都不到三成所以你只需要這麼多在用不完的情況之下在編預算的時候又說又多編了90萬我覺得這個"},{"start":9085.879,"end":9092.787,"text":"這個編法我是不認同啦所以我這邊雖然是3.1百萬待會帶大家統一大家再來考慮好請說明"},{"start":9098.203,"end":9123.677,"text":"事務部說明我們請那個市長蔡市長說明好那委員我們大概今年編列265最主要召委剛剛說明說112 113到114因為112部成立的時候我們大概是編在一般行政那個秘書處的向下那經過這兩年我們大概就編到我們數位策略師裡面就是公關科真的專責用"},{"start":9124.617,"end":9138.093,"text":"但是編這個在核實265這主要是有資料師、國際師、數證師跟策略師四個師來使用那我們大概114年大概我們大概要去做政策的宣導跟"},{"start":9139.815,"end":9157.397,"text":"科普的說明就是這些都是拍一些簡單的一些公關的公關的工具並不是說去做給特定媒體的那個補助或怎麼樣所以說這個部分看委員能不能支持然後就是讓我們提書面報告之後來運用這樣"},{"start":9159.579,"end":9181.313,"text":"對 所以你這邊的意思就是我不太懂就是政策宣導跟有一些觀念的科普都OK嘛但是今年目前只實行28%嘛所以今年不用政策宣導今年不用科普但我覺得這個部分還是有一點奇怪因為連續兩年只用到百分之二十幾%那你說又要增加九十萬所以我只是幫你調整"},{"start":9185.736,"end":9203.412,"text":"那在這裡啊 那我請問一下為什麼你們來溝通的時候我說叫你們提供細目 去年的細目 為什麼你們不提供不是啦 那為什麼不提供 那不提供就是沒有必要啊"},{"start":9204.605,"end":9222.314,"text":"我要你們提出說明你也知道我在審議算是非常理性的只要提出來有理由的我們基本上都支持啊但是我請教一下我要你們提供你們去年的那個那個細目為什麼提供不出來"},{"start":9223.407,"end":9236.805,"text":"好 報告委員大概就是這邊我們資料沒有提供這個部分再跟委員道歉那最主要我們執行率大概就是12113大概2528左右因為這分在四個四個司有的編書有的編"},{"start":9238.887,"end":9260.07,"text":"是是是 那這個我們提供 所以我才 我說拜託委員喔這個部分我們大概以後這四個市我們一百一十人要朝統一這兩百六十萬統一去發包對 我知道 二十六州一回事 你們過去你也經過你解釋本來原來編在其他地方 你們現在把它統一編在這個地方"},{"start":9261.171,"end":9273.895,"text":"這個我們知道那你怎麼編沒有關係戲目為什麼不給我所以我才會前三啊因為不給我就是見不得人不是嗎沒有沒有我是說可不可以讓我凍結50%戲目我再提供這樣"},{"start":9277.256,"end":9301.495,"text":"那幹嘛 我審議算為什麼要聽你的呢 對不對那為什麼很簡單 給我資料 我就會放行 我也會支持那你們為什麼不給 你們就是壞習慣嘛委員要你們要資料 好像是要你們什麼東西耶這基本上給我們資料 我們了解的越多 我們越支持你們嘛"},{"start":9303.004,"end":9318.771,"text":"我們交通委員會在審議算不管三檔在審議算是非常理性的我就請教你啊不然為什麼不讓你是你交代的還是他們自己做主張的沒有沒有 這個是我這邊的疏忽是啊 你要解釋為什麼不給我嘛"},{"start":9322.513,"end":9344.485,"text":"這個資料我大概給慢了這樣委員不好意思 是啦 給慢 什麼時候那你什麼時候給 那就剩第二輪的大會來討論好不好好 那就送到那個 這樣的啦 我覺得這樣很不行喔每一位委員跟你要資料說真的啦 你人看不到就算了 跟你要資料"},{"start":9346.045,"end":9363.151,"text":"這是我們的全通過預算資訊公開要跟你怎麼質詢怎麼會說不給咧會說今天在已經在建在弦上你說要給林俊賢委員來現在主席喔這個只有兩百多萬喔全部預算兩百多萬這個送鞋上實在有一點"},{"start":9374.835,"end":9397.856,"text":"所以喔 你也後備人啦你兩百多萬 你是要上什麼學生啦你就在那邊跟經貿政委員報告誰啊 人家就給你藥製藥 你也沒人我現在立刻給委員好 來來來 我想問一下那個部長再說明一下那個 真的 這個是我們的束縛啦那我們資料有了是不是就當"},{"start":9399.657,"end":9415.64,"text":"你們團隊聽一下部長的話啦好不好以後資料要怎麼弄來 部長你再說一遍對 就是對啦那個我先跟委員道歉啦因為這個確實是我們束縛的地方那我們資料是有是不是向委員現在當場給委員看一下"},{"start":9416.381,"end":9434.536,"text":"真的有點尷尬每一位委員跟你們要調合法的預算處理資料你要最快第一時間要去給到委員辦公室這個是基本的那看到你的資料再了解預算要怎麼去做處理這個部分我覺得基本了但是265萬我來處理一下就3減100萬好不好3減100萬"},{"start":9439.24,"end":9455.931,"text":"凍結10%然後提供書院報告10%的凍資這樣啦部長因為我已經說了你們也講了去年112年給你們錢你們只執行到四分之一25%今年已經113年結束了你們只執行到28%"},{"start":9458.183,"end":9472.515,"text":"但是你還要比去年再多90萬 多51%我覺得在預算的編列上面有它的不合理性我今年錢都用不完了然後我要再多90萬所以我只是幫你們調整一下調到你們去年"},{"start":9473.476,"end":9493.993,"text":"今年用到28%都用不完嘛那你們再努力去用我沒有說把你們整個刪減啦好不好那這個比較小條的要不要快一點來部長林副院長如果你在發言說明的時候你知道預算會刪減你也可以提出一個你認為就部裡面希望委員會刪減的一個數字你也可以主動提出來"},{"start":9495.494,"end":9520.248,"text":"不然我們這個主席有時候比較勇 台腦比較多有時候你 譬如說你希望這個預算三五十萬 你也可以主動提出來對不對我在想 部長這個一個立法委員 要了解到底你們錢花到哪邊去像你們剛剛就有資料啊 你們有九項啊去執行這些啊"},{"start":9521.38,"end":9535.754,"text":"那我就感覺現在真的是一個不了解要你們提供資料你們就是粗心大意不給委員知道那我刪掉是剛好而已你聽到沒有因為我會認為你們提不出來"},{"start":9536.877,"end":9553.744,"text":"你們只有20幾%那我要的是這個執行的情形我坦白跟你講我堅持這些最基本的就是我們立法委員審議算基本的尊嚴你們不要以為這樣混的就過去立法委員有立法委員的職責"},{"start":9554.764,"end":9570.135,"text":"我最討厭這樣就像你們上一次那個行政法人不來我也很不滿啊其實審預算本來就是我們你信你們盡心把它說清楚這樣的預算會很快就取得共識啊"},{"start":9571.331,"end":9587.621,"text":"所以我跟你講啊明明你們都有資料啊為什麼不給不給就是什麼對立法委員一點尊重都沒有不是要刪這兩百多萬不是而是了解一下總是要吧所以柏定我是這樣跟你建議啦"},{"start":9588.522,"end":9613.14,"text":"像這種東西你們都不把它放在心裡面委員委員所質疑的東西啊你都把它當作親菜反正有人幫你護行我坦白跟你講民進黨的委員也是理性的啦對的對不對不對啦所以我原則性主席如何裁我也不一定一定要堅持前三就是主席如何去裁定我也尊重"},{"start":9614.469,"end":9636.404,"text":"何俊成委員謝謝主席主席我還是請求是不是可以再討論一下剛剛你財事的刪減的數額可以再少一點有兩個原因第一個原因是在於我們一直要求說數位發展部必須要對於我們現在民間最深通惡絕的這個詐騙我們要怎麼阻詐怎麼防詐怎麼反詐"},{"start":9637.225,"end":9652.757,"text":"那數位發展部如果他們有研發出一些阻詐反詐的一些系統的話那他必須要宣導要講有做的要說你如果不說不宣導的時候不宣傳的時候大家又誤會而且不知道"},{"start":9653.137,"end":9673.816,"text":"那也許呢就對這個我們的主詐反詐的這樣子的一個讓民間深通誤覺的這樣子的一個詐騙行為可能又更氾濫這第一個啦我覺得宣傳費用有時候是必要的因為之前我們一直要求數位發展部必須要好好的來告知國人你們到底在幹什麼"},{"start":9674.377,"end":9690.2,"text":"你們為國人做了什麼你們對大家最恨的這個詐騙的一個反詐 試詐 阻詐的一個系統軟體開發又開發了什麼這個要講 這第一個如果你們願意講 講得清楚那要做什麼樣的宣傳"},{"start":9691.401,"end":9710.071,"text":"預算當然我們支持你第二個是在於剛剛主席召委已經給我們數位發展不同的一個很好的機會你就把這個265萬為什麼第一個過去的執行率那麼的低那你要講清楚嘛到底是基於什麼原因嘛第二個執行率低"},{"start":9711.031,"end":9740.05,"text":"是真的還是假的那後來的最終的這個決算的時候的質詢力到底是多少那還有你今年要為明年度的這個宣傳費用增加了90萬那又是為了什麼要增加90萬也許部長你有你的思考跟想法那你也要講清楚這樣子大家才能夠去知道說這筆預算到底要做什麼那該不該支持你那如果該支持我們當然要全力的支持所以以上 謝謝"},{"start":9741.511,"end":9758.74,"text":"好徐副國務委員謝謝主席我個人覺得說這個蘇衛部其實剛剛我很贊成何清春委員的講法尤其我們這個偏鄉我一直跟部長也反映說這個打砸這個事情在偏鄉因為資訊的落差很多老人家不曉得這個"},{"start":9760.121,"end":9789.501,"text":"詐騙的手法跟如果去防範我反而覺得說數位不憋得太少人應該多憋一點針對這個宣傳的部分應該要加強所以我想還是請我們的委員沈慎去思考一下那尤其剛剛講說到底今年增加90萬到底要做什麼那未來在這個媒體的行銷上面應該有不一樣的一個宣傳的一個手法跟不一樣的媒體的一個項目應該要更說明更清楚讓所有的委員能夠支持你們的預算案"},{"start":9789.761,"end":9806.146,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝其實我跟所有委員都一樣我們現在省掉預算是恨鐵不成鋼啦我們隨便在想這麼多你們新的軟體上包括偏鄉你們要去宣傳結果你剛剛講政策的宣導甚至民眾不知道科普成了詐騙這個部分你錢"},{"start":9808.127,"end":9821.276,"text":"今年給你175萬13年你只用了49萬是問題點在這裡你知道嗎是恨點不成綱啊那在你編預算的邏輯就用不完你為什麼要再多一點我意思在講的是這個再給你們說明一次來"},{"start":9823.497,"end":9849.098,"text":"我報告召委跟各位委員就是因為我剛剛有說明就是過去這個媒體宣導要分站分編列在四個司那我們114年有去檢討過會統一去發報把這260萬好好的做那我是說這個部分讓我們不管在宣導上面能夠為部宣導希望委員支持那我這邊可不可以陳前委員大概跟召委就讓我們凍結50%我提書面報告之後使得凍值不要給我們刪減以上"},{"start":9853.596,"end":9861.725,"text":"好 黃建豪委員好 謝謝張委員我拿到 剛剛拿到這個剛剛提到給國城委員的資料大家想說你們要來宣導詐騙那其實你們在112年前10名廠商資料裡面"},{"start":9865.56,"end":9892.674,"text":"真的在宣傳詐騙反詐騙的就是兩個項目都是不到十五萬兩名不到十五萬合計大概不到三十萬其他都是其他都是這些有的沒的就別的項目啦應該這樣講啦所以說其實剛剛主席才是說三一百嘛對不對一開始才是三一百然後其他凍結然後再提相關的數位報告我覺得合理啊因為其實大家對數位報告期待不是說你們去宣傳反詐因為反詐宣傳是別的單位的事情你們的期待是說"},{"start":9893.855,"end":9917.021,"text":"技術面上去阻止詐騙不是去跟大家講說你們不要被騙我想這單位各單位不同的期待是不一樣的所以你們才會編才編110你們才編所謂的30萬不到的數字去做反詐騙的行為嘛所以這是我覺得預算編列合理性因為260萬講真的確也不多沒錯但是合不合理咧就我剛提到了你們就是只編30萬而已啊所以還是蠻多錢給你們花的其實以上"},{"start":9919.281,"end":9932.484,"text":"好 充分討論針對於本案42到第45案通案的部分那我就來這邊這個調整一下3減尾數刪掉了365萬凍結10%請你詳細說明為什麼效率這麼差提供書面報告時的動之好不好 各位有沒有其他意見好 沒有意見我們繼續"},{"start":9943.769,"end":9970.56,"text":"那這樣跟各位委員稍微報告一下也徵求同意一下因為今天總共有四本的預算要審理所以待會因為剛剛這個部分我們每次發言我的這個立場一定是讓每位委員講到有飽足感飽足感可是因為有四本預算要審這樣好不好各位委員如果要發言我們就精簡控制在一分鐘以內為原則但是沒有人按鈴就這樣拜託一下好"},{"start":9972.48,"end":9987.225,"text":"接下來我們處理46到66案剛剛以上處理的都是通案現在開始第一幕一般行政徵求委員補充說明林國成委員本席提的是49案、55案、61案、65案在這裡提這些當然"},{"start":9995.607,"end":10020.085,"text":"租金的問題 這個也希望部長要去注意那另外一個就是績效讓我好像也不太明顯這個部分61案也請這個部長要了解一下那65案我也建議就是這個部分小三那在這裡比較敏感的一個問題"},{"start":10021.286,"end":10050.413,"text":"部長可能你要了解因為這跟人事會有關其實基本上如何去刪我沒有意見雖然我堅持刪的金額很大但是大家如果討論以後也可以適度的刪那我也不堅持第二我要請教部長你們有一個單位上班在睡覺這個人這個人不是只有睡一次喔"},{"start":10052.681,"end":10069.966,"text":"不是只有睡一次喔行銷中心吵醒他 在上班吵醒他 還被他嗆賭行銷中心 柏柳 怎麼處理是不是可以談一下 這是風氣的問題啦風氣的問題聽說這個人後面 後面很有咬咧啦但是我不要理他"},{"start":10075.948,"end":10088.779,"text":"跟你正式檢舉一定要趕快處理叫他不要睡覺就好了好不好睡覺要晚上才回去睡真的喝酒喝了受不了"},{"start":10090.426,"end":10115.798,"text":"請他請假去睡覺不要在辦公室裡面睡覺因為睡覺他有穿梁繩啦他可以睡我不能睡 起不去很壞所以不要霸凌之後還有一個睡覺的事情不然 我好意 我不要你嫌棄這雖然跟預算沒有直接關係但是還是有一個監督不足的問題 好不好"},{"start":10119.554,"end":10143.868,"text":"好 葛如君委員好 謝謝昭偉本席第47案是關心這個也是人緣人力啦那我自己是阿宅 我知道阿宅很常熬夜確實白天可能會睡覺但是這個就應該要正規化嘛你要輪班的輪班那尤其我們的工作的環境是應該要更加的照護的那這一次呢 速發部有爆發三起霸凌的案件"},{"start":10144.768,"end":10162.305,"text":"最終是兩成立一不成立調查結果其實是相對的比較草率其他的部會對於這樣的事件其實都有比較詳細的報告但是速發部相對的比較不夠完整人員真的是人才真的太重要了"},{"start":10162.805,"end":10188.475,"text":"那我們就很快跳過其實我們資安法有這個規定我們應該要配備1500位以上的專職人力但是目前我們看到只有898位所以只要能夠進來的我們都希望能夠全力留住尤其我們剛剛又提到資安的專案資安或資通訊的專業人才、纜才實屬不易讓他們進來了一定要照顧好他們尤其他們有可能面臨工時超長"},{"start":10189.776,"end":10212.399,"text":"24小時待命日夜很可能還要輪班相對的高壓所以我們這個霸凌一定要特別重視尤其相關的資安人才資通人才工作情形去建造一個健康友善的環境所以我想希望能夠就部長剛剛我提到的幾件事尤其相關霸凌的案件能不能簡要的說明"},{"start":10212.899,"end":10233.126,"text":"希望能夠營造這個健康的環境否則我想這個行政上面我們應該與凍結同時呢也希望了解高壓合理的這個環境其實也可能會影響到高階的管理人才我們看到素產署的署長我從來這邊到現在幾乎都看到都是代理署長都還是在代理那也有聽聞說"},{"start":10234.386,"end":10247.894,"text":"先前的這個呂署長好像待的也壓力有點大好像也不是很愉快我們到底新任的署長什麼時候要上呢正式的人員能不能補上呢這個都是我們這個人才的關懷是不是可以請回覆一下 謝謝好 接下來林俊憲委員再來徐富奎委員"},{"start":10254.622,"end":10276.468,"text":"好 感謝主席好 林佩祥本期題第62案是在我們蘇發部114年度預算一般行政向下的數位策略規劃及管理會長請教蘇發部就是說我們數位平台因為它之前我們在委員會也討論過很多次就新聞有價的這個部分"},{"start":10278.308,"end":10302.026,"text":"因為一些平台他都免費使用新聞然後廣告收入當然屬於平台導致新聞產業目前都面臨到這個部分很多國家注意到了所以各國都有一些相關的法規不知道我們未來要怎麼做我記得在委員會也大概討論過很多次就新聞媒體溢價草案"},{"start":10303.967,"end":10314.152,"text":"蘇華部目前的態度如何?以及這個草案一推這麼多年蘇華部未來要如何的規劃?本期是提凍結案10%三個月內請蘇華部提報告再動輒謝謝"},{"start":10318.206,"end":10337.78,"text":"好接下來徐副科委員謝謝主席那我想我提出的第五十案那還是針對我們現在很頻繁的一個名人粉絲專業的一個詐騙還有一個時事的一個案件的一個詐騙行為那我想尤其現在投資理財的部分影響非常非常的巨大那"},{"start":10338.56,"end":10354.654,"text":"當然蘇發部目前有提出很多的一個因應的一個對策不過我們還是要要求應該要加強各部會的一個打造的一個溝通平台那尤其針對一個電商業者的一個治安的維護能力還有第三方支付的一個防治作為"},{"start":10355.314,"end":10374.17,"text":"甚至現在年輕人很盛行的一個網路遊戲的一個點數詐騙我想這些案子 蘇化部應該要認真思考怎麼樣加強一個防治那所以經過溝通 我們動解了提案動解基本行政工作維持費的10%那請提出書面報告 使得解凍 好 謝謝"},{"start":10376.272,"end":10400.405,"text":"好謝謝林沛翔委員好謝謝主席本案本協題是64案是有關這個資訊管理資訊管理的那經過溝通之後已經已經改要改為說減列1000萬到10%然後改順便報告不過中間也要特別特別強調要要求要求中間這個科目裡面要有要有要有列500萬來去做雲端防火牆的措施以上好好的"},{"start":10404.673,"end":10429.422,"text":"那我這邊提的兩案其中第52案那我改組決議好了因為我對於每個單位的水電費都希望政府來做節能省碳你們提供的資料說目前為止你們的水電費已經執行率112%因為感覺不夠那我就改成組決議希望你們再提供說明具體節能省碳的一個方式"},{"start":10430.262,"end":10452.488,"text":"那第59案啊59案是針對於這個我們部長的特別費大概是我所有的預算大概第一個針對於特別費的一個部分錢不多但最重要的意義在哪裡呢因為我覺得12月4號我在主持會議的時候那時候整個行政院很多部會在講霸凌特別有個空間在請教你們"},{"start":10453.288,"end":10477.823,"text":"那時候我們的謝署長謝署長站起來針對於霸凌的跟所有的交通委員不是我啊在透過麥克風有記錄的說明說你們針對於霸凌事件已經做過訪談跟匿名的問卷我覺得這個人是叫做主任是吧人是處長嗎"},{"start":10480.345,"end":10493.779,"text":"你們兩個在那邊整個演的齁我是沒法講一個點頭搖頭也看不清楚但是錄影非常清楚就是謝署長說已經做過訪談跟匿名的問卷後面我們講說那匿名問卷的樣張啊"},{"start":10498.264,"end":10522.501,"text":"我們不知道結果啦 竟然是匿名樣張提供給我們 正式跟你們調結果呢結果調不出來 沒有這回事那但是你們來這邊說明啦 那謝署長因為是當事人之一啦所以他並沒有參加調查霸凌的申訴事件所以當天在交通委員會的表達純屬口誤我的天啊 純屬口誤"},{"start":10526.804,"end":10549.474,"text":"那我跟你講我今天講說3個1億到隔天講說純屬口誤是10億你這個交通委員會我們在談一個非常重要的事情因為你們這樣子說是我們點頭所以委員不質詢因為你們有處理了結果後面告訴我抱歉啦講錯了說錯了可是在講錯的過程中部長你在現場"},{"start":10551.215,"end":10567.736,"text":"你也在現場那你這樣的整個的一個在整個處理之下我覺得你的管理的機制是真的有問題署長可以在你的面前去講一件不是事實的事情第二個他本身能不能參加霸凌的一個審議的小組"},{"start":10569.278,"end":10586.388,"text":"輪延可能也不清楚或者人事的處長當時其實點頭搖頭我也看不清楚我在看了錄影帶我是覺得真的有莫名其妙最後一個其實我們在各個部會的預算的審議其實部長我真的我個人良心的建議"},{"start":10587.449,"end":10610.201,"text":"你是講話最少的很多的事情你都叫市長叫其他人來說可是因為我們真的我知道你是這個好人啦但是真的你當一個數位部部長我們不是選好人好事代表是真的沒有辦法我覺得你壓不住讓這些整個那個你管的官員在那邊可以隨便亂說的話我是真的沒辦法接受所以我這邊提"},{"start":10611.201,"end":10619.044,"text":"在你的特別費喔 三節50% 凍結50%請你講說到底什麼情況好 那請說一波說明好 那個謝謝召委還有各位委員的指導那我先簡單就針對剛剛幾個委員提的關於這個第一個就是那個各位委員講的那個署長的人選我們現在是有送給院長一個名單那院長等於上批了以後就會正式應該希望近期就能夠確認"},{"start":10641.053,"end":10664.462,"text":"那人力部門我們會特別強調就包括從人員培訓跟人員經驗我們會讓資訊人員是足夠來執行這個未來的資訊因為資訊真的是很繁重這個確實是一個問題整個政府的問題資訊人員是不夠是個整個的問題這個我們會特別來關注然後其他的很多委員的包括剛剛講這個這個媒體溢價華啦這些東西我想我們就寫書面寫書面報告再跟委員討這個來報告報導"},{"start":10667.023,"end":10684.76,"text":"那至於剛剛那個我們召委講的這個關於那天這個在諮詢所提的問題因為我們這個細節我們那個整個調查委員會的主席是那個次長那他有經過一些法律專家的考量然後一些建議以後才採取的一個辦法這是不是請次長在這邊進一步簡單的說明"},{"start":10689.457,"end":10706.253,"text":"不是我不是要問你後段啦那謝組長你當天講說已經做過匿名問卷了那你現在自己說一下你當天在交通委員會講的是是誤會嗎你要幫他講嗎我一定要講這個事件而已當天你在交通委員會跟所有委員講的"},{"start":10707.194,"end":10736.08,"text":"為什麼講不是事實的話第一件事情謝署長本身是當事人所以他完全迴避這個程序第二件事情我們當然有通知謝署長說他是當事人而且可能會對於署裡面採取一些調查措施其中包括問卷但是後來在實際調查的時候主持調查的律師認為說他有具體的事項要調查的時候用匿名問卷的方式會干擾他的調查所以實際上沒有採取那因為謝署長沒有參與這個過程所以他後面這一段是"},{"start":10736.5,"end":10761.044,"text":"是不清楚所以當時在交通委員會跟趙偉報告的時候有的確是發生一些失誤那我們是非常抱歉跟趙偉非常抱歉那實際上面那個時候在調查的時候問卷是沒有做的那這個先跟趙偉致歉那整個案子也如這個剛才葛如威軍委員所提的那我們會特別針對資安人才培育跟友善職場的環境我們是願意來提專案報告的以上"},{"start":10761.644,"end":10771.633,"text":"好 謝謝次長的說明 默處長你當時是證人嘛 他沒有辦法參加他在那邊講說已經做過匿名問卷 你是人事處處長你跟著點頭是什麼意思默處長你回應一下"},{"start":10790.845,"end":10799.909,"text":"那個當天那個我們是透過那個人事院跟國會系統會後再來跟那個趙偉辦公室來做說明"},{"start":10804.198,"end":10813.062,"text":"你跟我說明什麼我跟你講當天我們在開委員會委員不在現場的也是本人 祕書都在參與透過視訊鏡頭參與這個會議我想這樣因為來這裡我再次說"},{"start":10821.265,"end":10840.358,"text":"來到立法院甚至你們自己在這個怎麼可以這樣的有就有沒有就沒有當天說已經做過匿名問卷了那你知道嗎很多員工他有他沒有啊沒有這個事情搞得我們齁跟豬頭一樣我們說有他說沒有所以你們跟我講是口誤齁那這樣好我們針對這個預算來做處理"},{"start":10845.95,"end":10866.583,"text":"好我們針對第46萬到66萬第一幕一般行政的費用總共是6億4745萬餘元那這個部分有各位委員提的三減的數字大概最高到6000但是有互相累加的那個機制"},{"start":10868.488,"end":10883.74,"text":"來各位來您有什麼建議謝謝昭偉那其實剛剛我提的這47案我想其實速發部葉市長有來這邊溝通那他們有答應就這個三起八零案件一個月內提供交通委員會完整的補充說明"},{"start":10884.881,"end":10903.948,"text":"那也同意本席的要求就該部以及所屬機關的資通訊資安人才的培育健康有善職場環境向交通委員會提出專案報告因此我自己的這個案子47案是同意改為主決議不過剛剛部長有提到這個署長的這個人選是什麼時候送出的我希望能夠知道一下謝謝"},{"start":10907.304,"end":10920.927,"text":"好那個第四期案改組決議謝謝葛委員那我們講針對於這個一般行政的部分我們就是統一處理這個兩個部分第一個針對6億多的預算我們3減2000萬針對特別費的部分單一特別付費3減50%"},{"start":10933.641,"end":10959.922,"text":"其他整體凍結反正是各位有沒有不同意見沒有 你們已經講過了好不好你們已經講過了嘛你要講 來 你說不過當天為什麼騙我們委員我不是在講報委我是說這個科目因為跟前面的一般事務會有重複的情況所以可不可以減少一點這樣子好"},{"start":10963.354,"end":10982.482,"text":"來那各位委員對於我剛剛的就是其實六億四嘛剛剛前面處理的也不多那我們就三減兩千萬那針對於特資部分 特資費的部分個別三減50%那整體動資10%提供書面報告時的動資各位有沒有不同意見好來"},{"start":10993.941,"end":11008.873,"text":"好 科目事情調整嘛是不是這個部長我們發生的事是不是讓部長承擔的不太...沒關係啦你就是費的部分借用他一點嘛沒有沒有沒有好不好借一點 沒有多少錢啊沒有沒有不是這個報告委員這個是"},{"start":11012.14,"end":11033.397,"text":"我們無聊的這個發生失誤這讓部長六億四才三兩千萬還有六億兩千多萬那特別費不過我剛剛是真的一個提醒好不好不要都狀況外不行啦真的不行好不好那特別費這個部分我們就是提醒那整體的部分三減兩千萬凍結10%"},{"start":11038.581,"end":11060.194,"text":"沒有有動啊整體動10%啦好不好整體動10%提供具體的書面報告時的動之各位有沒有不同意見科目自行調整好就這樣對然後其中第47案第52案改成主決議好接下來處理第二幕"},{"start":11069.949,"end":11093.385,"text":"建立全民數位韌性 連結民主網路你們那個 不是 我覺得民主是沒有問題啦但是你這樣改來改去 你在次上裡面的內容物真的 你在明年度啦 因為現在跟你扯這個沒有用 好不好你們如果覺得需要改的 你們就去調整一下不要在這邊找那個額外的麻煩總積分是16億6294萬餘元"},{"start":11099.129,"end":11122.536,"text":"這個提案蠻多的有沒有提案委員要補充說明林國成委員 陳世衛召委徐副國務委員我是69案 80案 94案那我刪的預算算也不少也是不少五千萬 三千萬跟三千萬那這裡面就是計畫書寫得不太清楚69案給部長去做參考"},{"start":11126.497,"end":11146.159,"text":"那另外我八十案可以改為凍結案那九十四案是績效不明所以這個部分還是要刪一下那當然尊重主席如何去刪減這個部分尊重主席的決定以上好 陳書業召委"},{"start":11148.393,"end":11161.732,"text":"好謝謝主席那本席針對第二幕就是建立全民數位韌性連結民主網絡這個經費我提了三個凍結案就是76案84案跟109案"},{"start":11164.215,"end":11183.54,"text":"我大概就是總和來講一下就是事實上我們知道在委員會裡面每個委員都非常關心這個資安的問題那包括一般社會這個民眾也都非常的關心因為我們知道台灣人可以說是全球駭客攻擊的熱點那每秒被攻擊的次數就有達到1.5萬次"},{"start":11185.541,"end":11208.264,"text":"事實上這個整個網路的一個使用事實上不僅是關係到國家的安全也是關係到整個民生的問題因為我在委員會質詢的時候也有質詢過幾次事實上我們知道就是說跟民眾民生息息相關的包括就是這個肉品市場的拍賣也好或者果菜市場的拍賣也好或者是"},{"start":11208.964,"end":11218.549,"text":"電力啊電信啊等等的使用都跟民生有很大的關係所以對於建立整個這個全民數位韌性包括這個基礎建設關鍵基礎建設的一個加強我覺得這個都很必要我們也都會支持本縣會支持那我也希望就是說在預算的一個編列跟執行上我們也希望"},{"start":11229.575,"end":11241.343,"text":"數位部要就是要更積極跟更用心那本期也包括我提案裡面有提到這個數位皮夾的問題等等我們都希望就是說針對這幾個議題我們希望就是數位部要提出這個書面的一個說明那在這個政策的執行上我們也希望能夠更明確然後讓更就是民眾能夠更清楚的了解謝謝"},{"start":11255.691,"end":11270.939,"text":"好這個待會發言順序徐富奎委員林佩祥委員葛國軍委員邱厚華委員羅志強委員好請徐富奎委員發言謝謝主席本席提出第74 75 82跟"},{"start":11274.921,"end":11294.889,"text":"107案我想74 75主要還是針對我們屏東縣這個數位基礎建設不足的部分尤其是我們偏鄉的一個數位資源的一個落差缺乏甚至我們未來希望跟這個數位部跟我們的NCC針對我們一些我們的一些沿海鄉鎮一些防災地區的一個"},{"start":11295.589,"end":11311.637,"text":"高抗災的基地台的設置能夠強化這個我們的一個基本的建制那針對82案的部分我想我們還是要求關於這個數位創新的一個關鍵基礎建設能夠給予屏東縣更多的一個支持"},{"start":11313.669,"end":11335.64,"text":"那在107案的部分那我們還是要求蘇衛部在這個所謂的AI的技術的一個建立的威脅情勢的部分能夠提升有效我們政府機關的一個資安防護跟一個監控的一個預警系統最重要要有緊急應變的一個能力那所以針對這幾個部分經過溝通之後我想我們還是凍結10%提出書面報告後 使得凍滯好 謝謝"},{"start":11339.093,"end":11359.198,"text":"好 謝謝許委員我們因為羅志祥委員待會要趕趴來 羅委員我想為什麼一直在強調我們的抒發部變出國發展部我就看我的第71案 大家看一下科目計畫名稱叫民主網路之連結與創新用途是業務費 資訊服務費預算說明來是資訊操作維護費"},{"start":11364.679,"end":11372.764,"text":"但是你會發現說這個速發布是用資訊操作維護費為由在114年度編列高達4580萬元但是其中細項很多比跟資訊操作維護毫不相干我舉個例子辦理國際組織跟其他機關資通訊技術合作請問跟資訊操作維護是什麼關係還有跨國民主技術研發推動"},{"start":11394.576,"end":11403.913,"text":"這又跟資訊操作維護什麼關係參與全球分散式自治組織活動技術交流這又跟資訊操作維護有什麼關係"},{"start":11406.243,"end":11430.426,"text":"非常多啦還有什麼包括什麼公民科技倫理規範啊然後跨國技術實證作業那我要特別說資訊操作維護應該是跟資訊系統運作是直接關聯的可是速發部的資訊操作維護費卻有很多的國際交流政策推廣技術合作的用途我不是說這些不能做啊"},{"start":11431.047,"end":11446.935,"text":"但是我覺得不應該是用技術資訊操作維護的名義來做那不是一樣就是掛龍頭賣狗肉然後把你想要過的東西藏在一些好像覺得我們可能看不到的地方嗎你這樣的預算編列的名詞不相符那請問那我們要怎麼樣去來去審酌你的預算"},{"start":11448.476,"end":11456.121,"text":"所以在這部分我的提案是主張就針對這個4580萬元減列3000萬 凍結80%那請書發部一個月內向立法院教育委員會提出專案報告同意後實施的動之 以上好 謝謝羅委員 林沛翔委員"},{"start":11469.107,"end":11484.193,"text":"好謝謝主席本席主要提的是八十九案還有八十九案一百零一跟一百零一跟一百零四案這三個案裡面尤其是八十九案其實又是一樣也是跟剛剛"},{"start":11485.393,"end":11505.036,"text":"市長委員講的差不多有關民主網路資源解決創新還有什麼數位創新關鍵計畫想請問具體說明所謂分散式認證跟授權系統而且老實說這個其實我還是認為說這筆這筆錢花的其實讓人家解釋不清楚之外而且會讓他覺得說我們是在浪費納稅人的錢"},{"start":11506.741,"end":11524.887,"text":"再來也是一樣在第101案裡面數位韌性之應用以及強化然後項目6G的產業產業的這個先期研發計畫那其實也是一樣尾半費那其實尾半費是不是太高了一點我們這邊看到是尾半費高達將近4500萬那其實應該檢討是必要性而且具體說明6G產業到底你們先發先期研發計畫是什麼是有關IoT的再應用呢還是什麼還是什麼樣的項目我們這邊都不清楚"},{"start":11535.051,"end":11557.988,"text":"另外再來是有關這個hackathon我剛剛才在想說你們總統被駭客松應用創新推動那請問是為期幾天辦幾場有什麼樣的內容想要達到什麼樣的目標hackathon不是只有寫code而已而且我說的是一些idea的發想可是你們真的夯不啷噹就直接2850萬出去那我覺得獎助金會還是過高有扶爛邊用的支險所以應該"},{"start":11565.033,"end":11590.208,"text":"檢討期必要性以上好葛如君委員謝謝稍微本席第二幕的第88案是關於數位創新關鍵基礎建設計劃這個也是在所謂的民主網絡連結創新我們就先不講這個名稱這裡面有很多專有名詞我也算是大概理解就是分散式的驗證數位工具入口等等"},{"start":11590.948,"end":11613.786,"text":"但是在前半的第八十八案執行率在八月底其實你們只到14%當然我們一直在溝通速發部後來有跟本席辦公室來了解跟表達說在後來的下半年加速20場座談會加速辦理到11月底突然就從8月的14%變成111%了"},{"start":11616.408,"end":11643.221,"text":"那這裡面當然我想執行完成是肯定但是呢到底做了什麼事情是20場就消化了多少預算呢這個中間還是希望了解一下如果了解清楚的話這一案凍結500萬我是可以本席可以併案處理那第二幕呢這第90案呢是關於數位皮夾的建制案這一案呢本席也是非常關注的這個預算呢近2億元呢是兩年期的計劃"},{"start":11644.448,"end":11665.639,"text":"那這個邊鑽的方式呢書發部有跟本席的辦公室說明但是我想要釐清就是說因為這個數位皮夾Digital Wallet全世界都在推那他需要做到隱私的保護跟加密的機制但是呢就我本席的理解是這個專案最終的是由"},{"start":11667.3,"end":11692.422,"text":"這個有關股的電信公司得標但這個關股的電信公司呢在過去呢已經開始有一些民眾甚至是跨黨派的都有疑慮說他們可能有這個個資的一些風險可能甚至掌握或分析了人流群眾的資料現在我們的數位皮夾連金流錢的流向都要由這些公司來做這樣子的做法"},{"start":11692.762,"end":11720.753,"text":"民眾可能會猶豫說有沒有可能去搞監控搞後台大數據分析請部長要說明一下抒發部怎麼來跟第三方來協作去做到公正公開透明來緩解民眾的疑慮否則的話我想預算上本席是希望與凍結來追蹤數位皮夾在研發跟推廣上受到信任的這個部分的成效謝謝"},{"start":11724.235,"end":11729.62,"text":"好請問華委員好謝謝主席本期提的是第70第72105106案那針對第70案還有72案那72案的計劃名稱叫跨國"},{"start":11737.591,"end":11759.225,"text":"民主之技術研發推動等資訊服務請問速發部什麼叫做跨國民主的技術研發民主可以技術研發嗎民主的技術要怎麼來研發那本席很好奇為什麼速發部哪一大堆社會學的名詞跟理工用語合併呢讓大家摸不著頭緒啊所以針對70案和72案本席這邊提一個3-50萬那在105案的部分就本席了解這個計劃的名稱叫數位"},{"start":11761.815,"end":11775.015,"text":"跨域創新淨零先期計劃編列了335.8萬有關淨零相關的計劃速發部另外就有編推動部及所屬單位淨零機制及技術研發編列280萬還有數位發展淨零典範之"},{"start":11777.759,"end":11782.584,"text":"這三項的計畫主要是先導研發和輸出光是一個淨零就分了三項來計畫本身認為是有重複編列的疑慮所以這邊提3-150萬以上"},{"start":11793.82,"end":11808.999,"text":"好 謝謝邱委員那我自己本身在這個階段有提五個案子那就統一 不要一一說了其中跟委員有提到的包括數位皮夾因為你們已經做了一部分到底進度如何大家擔心的資安的問題"},{"start":11809.98,"end":11834.5,"text":"要如何說明所以我大概這個五個案子基本上都提凍結案啦希望你們再具體說明其中包括新的14年到17年的計劃創建主動式聯防必進任性的國家關鍵通傳網路計劃這個是一個新的計劃四年計劃可能要再具體說明一下那包括低軌衛星的部分因為"},{"start":11836.495,"end":11857.85,"text":"當時有感覺要低軌衛星國家隊那現在是國家去租用國外的低軌衛星到底未來要怎麼去發展要具體一下不然現在弄了半天的預算說我們要自己相關的研發當然你們現在是資安的預算後面到時候又不自己做有沒有這種可能接下來是6G的未來是可能要清楚"},{"start":11858.63,"end":11877.285,"text":"最後一個是112案也是一個新的四年計劃也就AI網路你們是網路主動是防禦就好了為什麼要加個AI比較容易過還是怎麼樣那我以上提的幾案都是以這個凍結為主那請事務部說明"},{"start":11878.266,"end":11900.607,"text":"首先我要講的就是說因為這個案子在前面通案已經刪了1.2億在報告出國經費又刪了500萬所以我想這邊是不是可以很多可以改成以凍結為主那我們再聽報告那其實剛剛有提到幾件事情我想因為很多是跟國際事跟任性事相關我是不是請國際事跟任性事二要說明就好"},{"start":11908.63,"end":11915.652,"text":"在網路政策發展的部分這個案子的部分我們在編列預算的時候其實我們就已經重新盤點過所以就去年的部分已經減少了649萬元的經費支出"},{"start":11936.818,"end":11964.273,"text":"然後在他的預算的編列裡面他主要是在剛委員有詢問到說那資訊服務費操作費的部分跟委員報告這部分的確是因為我們在整個專案的執行計劃執行過程中我們是跟地方政府包含台南屏東還有桃園等地方政府去開發他們所需要的一些公托的系統還有兒童聯品相關的為民服務系統"},{"start":11964.873,"end":11991.836,"text":"那這些的系統開發出來其實後續他必須要有相關的操作維護的一個經費那另外在整個那個我們這邊因為我這邊是國際師所以我們也需要跟國際的一些組織合作會有一些系統的一個操作的使用情形那所以費用的部分是這樣的編列然後剛剛委員就特別關切的是有關於數位皮夾的部分"},{"start":11992.777,"end":12010.977,"text":"我先跟委員報告我們專案的執行原則大概都會是在年底也就是說12月因為那是建制案所以會是在年底的時候再做核銷就是因為分階段建制所以會在年底一般都是在12月的時候會核銷那"},{"start":12011.517,"end":12028.359,"text":"所以才會有委員發現說是前期是14%那後期會整個追上因為到後期開始在驗收那座談會的部分主要是因為在數位皮夾的開發他必須要取得不管是公民也好或者是產業也好"},{"start":12028.88,"end":12042.975,"text":"或者是政府官員也好大家要認同這件事情所以我們開了大概四季二十場的一些座談會主要就是取得一些這樣的共識那委員有特別關切說那保密呢保密這一塊怎麼處理"},{"start":12044.116,"end":12063.548,"text":"那跟委員報告因為整個數位皮夾的開發所有的程式嘛他都會是public call就是整個都會是公開讓大家去共同檢視所以在開發過程中跟甚至之後開發完全部都會釋出讓全民公視全民都能夠一起了解"},{"start":12064.008,"end":12090.328,"text":"那另外委員有在詢問進度的部分進度的部分我們今年年底他開發出來的是雛形的系統那我們現在已經開始已經跟了經濟部還有內政部衛福部等部會去討論他們內部系統的界階如何能夠產生憑證在數位評價內那原則是在明年的6月"},{"start":12091.249,"end":12099.686,"text":"會先做完內部的測試那明年的下半年會release第一版的就是公測版本以上說明"},{"start":12101.67,"end":12128.391,"text":"好那還有說明好那剛才招委有關切到我們有關主動四聯網並繼國家關鍵的通傳網路的計劃這個計劃主要都是補助我們的治安院來幫我們做國家通訊與網際安全中心NCCC的這樣的一個委員那以確保我們通傳網路的這樣的一個的治安防護以上報告"},{"start":12130.885,"end":12156.7,"text":"好的 那我們這個針對於這個階段我們總共第二幕的部分很多委員的一個提案從我們先處理三檢的部分 從幾十萬到林郭村委員的三億郭村委員的三億三億我很難調耶好的那這樣好不好"},{"start":12161.645,"end":12187.241,"text":"這個部分我看很多委員提的是他有些的計畫正在施行中那有一部分是不清楚的這個部分那我們這個來折衷一下就按照陳雪生委員提案三減三千萬凍結10%給雪生委員一個面子這跟解釋有什麼關係我看他提三千萬"},{"start":12189.318,"end":12209.976,"text":"好沒關係各位有沒有不同意見來再說明一下沒有其實剛剛通案已經有刪了這個通案已經有刪到了好那我想說我們還是有一點點邏輯有連結來來各位"},{"start":12213.117,"end":12235.495,"text":"我是尊重召委但是有一些說明要講清楚剛剛很奇怪一下講private code一下又說公開檢視你到底是private還是public講清楚所以是講又口誤口誤那我們現在趕快校正不然我們這個山洞又搞不清楚那個說年底那已經有驗收項目了嗎數位皮夾好謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":12236.616,"end":12249.109,"text":"好 那3.3千萬凍結10%針對於很多的項目大家提出的疑問請請提出書我講完你再衝一下我講話講到一半你一直跟我搶話講 麥克風給你坐這裡好"},{"start":12257.236,"end":12268.823,"text":"我再宣告一次第67到115案第二幕建立全民數位韌性連結民主網路這個向下16億6294萬餘元我們做以下處理3減3000萬凍結10%科目可以自行調整提供書面報告使得動之"},{"start":12284.147,"end":12288.418,"text":"好另外11500改組決議還有什麼對啊可以還有不同意見嗎"},{"start":12297.15,"end":12317.492,"text":"我怕你下去罵我乾脆現在講先這樣因為我們想說大概中午之前把數位部的先處理到一個階段大家簡單吃個午飯休息半個小時之後再審審後面三個單位所以我們如果沒有不同意見我們就接續往下審"},{"start":12321.75,"end":12344.641,"text":"接下來我們處理116到142案第三幕創新數位跨域協作奠定智慧應用基礎你們寫的那個幕都很文學很有那種文青感真的不錯給你們嘉獎一下針對這個部分有沒有委員要普通說明葛國勤委員 陳樹葉召委"},{"start":12348.979,"end":12361.212,"text":"是謝謝主席本席這邊第129案是關於這個地方政府稅服務品質提升計劃當中有資訊服務費那相較去年編列多編了300多萬"},{"start":12363.506,"end":12378.196,"text":"但是這個預算書對於這個資訊服務費說明欄的描述卻完全一樣所以我們想說這個資訊數位服務品質每年都在變現在又有這個技術的大的巨大的變革"},{"start":12379.096,"end":12405.147,"text":"你們連資安的計劃都灌了一個AI的池進去那到底是因為增加了什麼新的東西要多編334萬嗎但是說明欄又沒有講清楚所以這個AI工具到底怎麼樣導入有什麼樣新的做法怎麼樣用AI技術來幫助地方政府執行公務這個部分是不是也應該要說明一下不然的話我想這個相關的預算呢希望以這個著動"},{"start":12407.088,"end":12432.215,"text":"那第40案140案呢是关于速发部正在研拟的促进资料创新利用发展的条例那根据速发部提供的资料有做一些沟通拟定一些框架那本席想要特别提醒这个条例的立法目的是希望能够提升开放资料的品质创造一个促进政府跟民间资料共享的利他环境甚至如果做得好"},{"start":12433.056,"end":12455.938,"text":"有可能也協助到目前我們深層式AI的資料缺乏的問題那想要請部長要說明一下因為這個預算已經編了那接下來的這個溝通機制的規劃是什麼那先前的這個座談會有邀請政府部門列席但是像主管文化內容產業的文化部以及主管勞動權益的勞動部都沒有在這些所謂的"},{"start":12456.599,"end":12485.507,"text":"资料创新利用发展条例里面的这个相关会议的受邀名单我们在因为我个人本席是在教文的我们也认为教育在文化甚至是劳动部都应该有非常多的数据应该要开放公开那为什么这样的一些做法跟会议竟然有所谓的排他到底什么样的原因那以及这个立他的机制要用什么作为奖励措施想请相关的这个同仁做个简要说明谢谢"},{"start":12486.664,"end":12487.685,"text":"好 接下來黃建豪委員"},{"start":12517.525,"end":12535.601,"text":"台湾两个三百五十万人里面可能真的使用买data平台的人真的少之又少啊所以为了提出三点跟冻结就是希望说这东西是概念是没问题的可问题是你们怎么怎么好像你们光跟自己政府之间的连结都做这么差那你当然没办法让民众去使用嘛"},{"start":12536.141,"end":12564.853,"text":"大家希望說數位政府講那麼多年但是一直是這個成效做這麼差你的比例這麼低你光跟地方政府的這個連結這麼差那為什麼我們還要給你這麼多的經費做這個事情呢所以這部分我覺得說不定要講清楚因為這是很單純這個還比剛剛什麼民主網絡什麼有的沒有的都還單純這很單純就是你們跟各政府各級政府的連結性的問題而已然後連這樣子你們連這麼部門的協調都做不好的情況下那民眾怎麼能夠使用這平台呢以上"},{"start":12566.411,"end":12572.592,"text":"好那委員在發言的時候拜託相關單位你們要仔細聽千萬不要在裡面聊天好陳樹葉召委"},{"start":12574.408,"end":12580.51,"text":"謝謝主席那本席在這部分有提了120案128案跟137案那其中120案針對這個健全政府數位服務基礎環境及人才賠利下有一個機關資料傳輸韌性強化劑發放共用基礎平台建置計畫這樣子的一個科目預算950萬元"},{"start":12599.517,"end":12625.312,"text":"那我們知道就是機關資料的傳輸任性強化很重要因為這個涉及到這個資安的一個安全那我們也看到在去年十月中的時候就是有發生這個國防部政府公司在辦理就是所屬人員財產申報的時候就是把很多這個高級將官包括國防部長的這個個資都外洩所以這個也引起很大的一個爭議"},{"start":12626.653,"end":12643.708,"text":"所以在這個部分本席是提這個凍結案就是要求這個書發部要針對如何提供跨機關更為安全快速之訊息傳輸服務增加國人對於跨機關資料傳輸的安全性然後盤點各機關系統建制提出規劃的一個時程提出書面報告後時的凍結"},{"start":12648.012,"end":12668.179,"text":"然後再來第128案的部分這個抒發部有編列了深化政府資通訊應用建設向下這個強化智慧政府數位發展計畫那我看到這個計畫的用途也是在用於辦理政府資訊直系人員的法定訓練辦資訊人員數位治理素養"},{"start":12671.96,"end":12686.384,"text":"訓練等等那本席在這邊是想要請教一下因為我們在上個禮拜在審這個資安署的時候我們也看到資安署同樣有編列這個預算就是針對要就是培訓相關的公務人員在這個資訊的這個專業的這個課程的方面"},{"start":12692.065,"end":12713.553,"text":"那我不曉得說這樣兩筆預算的一個編列跟執行的對象有沒有重複那這個內容上是不是要請數位部做一個說明所以這部分我也是提凍結預算三百萬元然後希望就就是提出相關的這個報告之後書院報告之後然後使得動之好謝謝好徐副委員"},{"start":12718.492,"end":12733.2,"text":"謝謝主席 本席提出第131案剛剛我們聽到數位部有提到針對這個父權個人打造自主數位運用計畫這個很難念但是這個計畫今年是最後一年的預算從110年到總共5年的計畫我想數位部編了1億1700多萬"},{"start":12742.845,"end":12768.147,"text":"但是我們看到的是截至到去年7月底這個MyData的這個平台上線超過一年的資料收集有700多項但是使用次數14以下的也有高達277項所以這個佔比高達三成六左右那尤其是我們在這個林桂檢核的這個服務的使用次數偏低這個比例也高達67%所以我想"},{"start":12769.969,"end":12790.871,"text":"未來我想尤其地方政府這個他們的這個經費有限然後人資安人力也有限那未來怎麼樣去協助這個地方政府能夠適時的運用這樣的一個平台服務的推廣我想是有一個優化的一個空間那所以也希望我們數位部能夠在這個促進這個政府的業務數位化的部分"},{"start":12791.812,"end":12800.561,"text":"應該也要加強去輔導讓我們的民眾這個數位服務的使用意願能夠提升所以我想我們還是提案凍結10%然後提出書面報告號 使得凍滯 謝謝好 謝謝徐委員"},{"start":12806.025,"end":12829.81,"text":"在這個階段我個人也有提兩案124案主要是針對於你們在113年就是現在已經變去年提出來的網路詐騙通報查詢網當然在整個過程中間大家有不同的一個建議還有也給察覺不同的問題但我現在我覺得最大的問題是你通報給其他機關之後很多機關在一定的期間真的更不理你"},{"start":12830.37,"end":12853.71,"text":"那但是目前看到這個業務是屬於暑期的產業署來主導那你要在產業署跟內政部或是說其他衛福部去協調我覺得是更不可行的目前看到國家隊在這個防詐詐騙國家隊真的是我覺得不夠合作不夠合作 是不是成績過低還怎麼樣我覺得部長要介入"},{"start":12854.531,"end":12881.961,"text":"接下來142案最主要是對於我們看到這個政府的簡訊短碼111然後被簡單的技術惡機去傳一些老舊手機啊老舊手機很多長輩啊那剛好是比較容易受騙的那個族群那會不會未來持續向上發展有其他的可能性所以針對這兩案我都是提凍結案那請市委部說明"},{"start":12882.902,"end":12896.197,"text":"主要是我們要建立一個Digital Infrastructure然後幫助政府跟產業做數位轉型所以很多工作是在奠定這個基礎的一些我們的技術或者是一個環境"},{"start":12897.578,"end":12909.946,"text":"那這裡面其實因為很多我也有提建議很多都是需要再進一步澄清書面報告來說明我是不是請那個就是當然我可以個別請我們幾個創新師跟我們的那個"},{"start":12913.428,"end":12938.896,"text":"說這件事來做 因為很多工作是跟他們有關資料創新是跟數位政府是那我先請他們說明那是不是到時候請主持就是我們因為這一部分可能因為牽涉到國家Digital Infrastructure的建立所以我們用凍結之後再做更進一步的說明是我覺得是一個方向那不過這關於剛剛的一些問題簡單二要我先請創新是因為今天牽涉到MyData然後跟Open Data的問題"},{"start":12939.876,"end":12965.703,"text":"還有剛剛那個關於數位政府室的一些問題我們是不是請創新室先二遙說明然後數位政府室也做個二遙說明好兩位市長這個針對整個凍結案待會都會有機會如果說是要很詳細的你這個短時間是說不清楚所有委員那個質疑但是會有一個書面說明的時候提供但是所以現在是簡要的回應好請"},{"start":12966.331,"end":12980.469,"text":"好謝謝召委跟各位委員的指教那我先回答一下這個MyData這個問題那MyData目前我們的這個使用人次大概已經到276萬人次所以使用率其實節節高升那我們的一些亮點的一個"},{"start":12981.93,"end":13005.78,"text":"服務呢像包括有條件式的換發護照像民眾不用去排隊就可以有條件式的換發護照這也是我們跟外交部合作那以及這個像是良民證啊或者是身心障礙停車證這些都可以有利於這個民眾來線上來做一個線上的申請那未來呢我們其實都會持續跟地方政府還有中央機關一起合作召開工作會議以及技術輔導的方式呢來提供這些亮眼的服務"},{"start":13006.36,"end":13025.356,"text":"我們後續也會加強這個推廣讓地方政府以及中央機關都能夠提供好的一個服務讓民眾來做使用那第二個部分是有關於委員有詢問就是說我們的促進資料創新發展條例這個部分那我們未來就是說我們在年底的時候呢已經完成這個條例的一個草案"},{"start":13025.896,"end":13042.834,"text":"那未來我們的這個溝通的方式呢就是會在明年的第一季呢我們會召集這個部會相關的部會以及這個專家來對我們這個條案給予一些建議那這個部分我們當然也可以提供給委員來做這個給我們一些建議那以上我的補充說明"},{"start":13044.306,"end":13068.395,"text":"好 下一位好 針對剛才委員有提到說針對T-Roll或是零信任這個部分那機關導入那我們現在其實針對A級機關我們都有協助他們導入那針對B級跟C級機關其實我們是把整個安控模組的軟體讓免費的提供這些B級機關使用而且我們有一些輔導的資源所以B級機關如果他們想要導入的話我們都會用技術的方式來協助他們來做導入"},{"start":13069.875,"end":13098.802,"text":"那第二個就是針對剛才委員有提到的128項就是這個教育訓練部分跟資安署這邊有沒有重複那跟委員報告這邊是沒有重複的因為資安署他的教育訓練是針對資安普洱是資安的技術資安的集合那我們這邊的教育訓練是針對資訊系統的建置就好像這個集合的人員跟這個建置的工程師一樣那兩個是分開的那而且我們這邊的一些教育訓練其實是跟人事總署等等的這些有相關的合作所以跟其他機關也不會有重複"},{"start":13099.702,"end":13123.652,"text":"那第三個是針對129題就是有提到說這個經費上面是不是有增加但是那個功能上沒有提到那這部分是因為我們以前我們在協助地方政府的這個網站讓他做得更好我們是用人工的方式用一些工具去做一些檢測讓他們檢測出他們這個網站是不是有這個符合一些UIUX的一些設計但是因為這樣子的方式比較慢所以我們現在想要用AI的方式來自動化這個檢測的方式"},{"start":13128.414,"end":13135.002,"text":"這樣子的一個檢測的量能可以提升 所以在這邊我們就增加300萬 甚至AI的導入 然後來檢測的一個能量 以上簡單報告 謝謝好 謝謝蘇緯夫的說明我們現在來處理這個針對於"},{"start":13145.353,"end":13169.182,"text":"116到142案第三目創新數位跨域協作奠定智慧應用基礎這個目別總共是10億多預算因為剛剛通案他們也有刪掉我看到我們所有提案委員有兩位委員提了三案三處但是剛剛建法委員也有去做一個調整"},{"start":13169.762,"end":13177.81,"text":"先祥委員不在 那我就幫他做決定了現在就是3減200萬 凍結20%提供書面報告時的動機各位有沒有意見沒有意見 項目你們自行調整好 第118案改組決議"},{"start":13208.016,"end":13214.418,"text":"好就按照剛剛宣告處理 接下來處理決議案 主決議案143到159請各位分開143案"},{"start":13230.458,"end":13253.485,"text":"好準備好沒有那個143案那個我還沒講話你我還沒有宣告出於哪一案不是不是我還你等我進度好好來好143案來蘇衛博那個報告委員那個14案的提案委員已經同意修正文字"},{"start":13256.363,"end":13285.724,"text":"好不是他那個委員有簽字啦沒關係143案修正文字後通過144案遵照辦理144案照案通過145案那個委員已經同意修正文字145案修正文字後通過146案146案遵照辦理146案照案通過147案147案遵照辦理"},{"start":13287.145,"end":13311.179,"text":"147案照案通過148案148案遵照辦理148案照案通過149案149案遵照辦理149案照案通過150案150案遵照辦理150案照案通過151案151案可不可以請各位委員可不可以把那個專案報告改成書面報告來 邱委員"},{"start":13323.345,"end":13325.167,"text":"有沒有跟邱委員辦公室溝通溝通如何"},{"start":13341.519,"end":13353.677,"text":"對 因為邱委員人在這裡啊 你們直接面對我要請同仁這個案子的話基本上我們就是建議說改書面報告"},{"start":13355.82,"end":13361.403,"text":"就說明就好就說明就好我們有拜會委員辦公室那天委員應該是不在對不對對是誰啊不要委員在這裡啊拜託啊你看著委員喔"},{"start":13372.007,"end":13392.812,"text":"報告委員這個我們有有拜會過但是那天好像委員是不在對不對所以沒有親自跟委員報告但是這個委員提這個事情是比較複雜就是我們跟通常會不是我們單獨可以決定的所以我們可以提書面報告就我們的觀點來報告但是專案報告我們也沒有能力說代表行政院來做這個決定"},{"start":13394.158,"end":13396.219,"text":"151案修正文字後通過152案"},{"start":13424.061,"end":13434.811,"text":"152案遵照辦理152案照案通過153案遵照辦理153案照案通過154案遵照辦理154案照案通過155案遵照辦理"},{"start":13441.356,"end":13462.464,"text":"155案照案通過 156案156案遵照辦理156案照案通過 157案157案遵照辦理157案照案通過 158案158案委員同意修正文字好 158案修正文字後通過 159案159案委員同意修正文字"},{"start":13464.096,"end":13486.223,"text":"好159案修正文字後通過好今天我們秀慧部的預算處理完畢謝謝大家我們現在午休中午休息一下到45分12點半來不及啦來不及好40分12點40分我們再開會請下個單位請注意謝謝"},{"start":13500.177,"end":13500.417,"text":"蔡市長"},{"start":13520.174,"end":13535.645,"text":"蔡市長 那個秋日法委他主要的我剛才已經講他電信管理法的部分是有行政院公告的你不用叫任性準備叫法務處準備好 馬上就送一份資料給或者是做一個簡單的說明然後送一個資料給秋日法委辦公室好不好"},{"start":13557.974,"end":13558.855,"text":"有些事情"},{"start":13587.579,"end":13589.34,"text":"我們來整理一下音樂"},{"start":13605.345,"end":13605.505,"text":"所以"},{"start":13631.118,"end":13632.299,"text":"市長 市長 市長 市長"},{"start":13656.049,"end":13676.032,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":13683.434,"end":13685.976,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":13700.783,"end":13701.824,"text":"我還是要罵罵他"},{"start":13730.92,"end":13734.201,"text":"你看一下這個科普跟技術的分別"},{"start":13750.505,"end":13751.426,"text":"這是長官的嗎?你要問一下科長嗎?"},{"start":13779.338,"end":13795.616,"text":"有些人知道你不太好,所以有一點感慨,但是你不太好,所以就好,你不太好,所以就好,所以就好,所以就好,所以就好,所以就好,所以就好,所以就好,所以就好,所以就好,所以就好,所以就好,"},{"start":13802.33,"end":13802.35,"text":"嗯"},{"start":13823.875,"end":13825.716,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的食物。"},{"start":13842.025,"end":13843.346,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的中間餐廳"},{"start":13873.215,"end":13876.796,"text":"這個已經幫他擺了這個是這是別人的這都是別人的這都不是別人的"},{"start":13912.602,"end":13922.278,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":13931.151,"end":13933.552,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":13944.099,"end":13948.622,"text":"我把他修一下不用修了我"},{"start":13970.919,"end":13971.899,"text":"君怡你的杯子喔"},{"start":14007.961,"end":14009.422,"text":"不敢要這個嗎?不用不用"},{"start":14044.002,"end":14058.217,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":14098.241,"end":14103.226,"text":"剩下還在想 他們是預算嗎 嗯 剩剩剩剩剩剩剩剩剩剩剩"},{"start":14128.797,"end":14133.341,"text":"你們最後出現大法官的權力 由大法官來決定我說風頭嘛 風頭啊"},{"start":14153.74,"end":14155.041,"text":"但目的是怎樣?"},{"start":14182.092,"end":14182.993,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":14221.927,"end":14236.096,"text":"他霸佔你的生命他霸佔你的生命他霸佔你的生命他霸佔你的生命他霸佔你的生命他霸佔你的生命"},{"start":14253.651,"end":14255.472,"text":"那邊立法會會不會有大事"},{"start":14285.45,"end":14285.71,"text":"嗯好燙"},{"start":14316.198,"end":14316.999,"text":"辛苦了"},{"start":15131.772,"end":15150.155,"text":"好我們繼續開會接下來處理中華郵政股份有限公司114年度附屬單位預算請各位翻開建議並案及預算表那我介紹一下今天到場的官員交通部陳彥博政務次長陳次長謝謝以及我們交通產業發展及國際事務師陳晉升市長陳市長我們會計處張信英處長"},{"start":15165.12,"end":15188.349,"text":"中華郵政股份有限公司王國才董事長以及會計處褚秀敏有沒有念錯啊念對還念錯喔對了齁 專委齁那這兩個有換嗎 行政院喔沒換 還是早上的嘛 好 那就不再介紹了"},{"start":15191.704,"end":15219.108,"text":"好請各位這個看預算我們依序來處理第一個是第一第一到四案營業收入的部分林俊賢委員不在那我這邊是提了三案總而言之是對你們有信心所以增加兩百五千五千總共三個加起來是一億左右的預算希望能夠增列"},{"start":15220.575,"end":15245.005,"text":"好那可以嗎 通過了嗎通過了是不是 沒有沒有來總經理總經理怎麼沒有在名單上好來我們請總經理報告召委 那個就是這四個案子裡面第一個案子是那個銷售收入然後銷售收入這個部分就是說因為我們那個現在就是說因為就是"},{"start":15246.025,"end":15270.009,"text":"環保所以就是說我們有鼓勵封裝材料重複使用那例如說我們的IO箱便利箱便利袋如果你重複使用你可以節省3塊到12塊那另外就是說因為現在電商他其實他自己都有他自己的包材所以在封裝材料跟一些信箱這一些他的業績量比較衰退了不過就是說我們114年的預算數還是比113年的結算數多了100"},{"start":15273.63,"end":15297.556,"text":"1343萬然後比113年前年一估是多了1820萬也就是說14年第一案這個編列3600多萬這個也是合理那第二案就是關於那個那個整個郵政整體收入下跌那這最主要就是說因為現在物流配送的潮流其實改變了就是說物流配送慢慢的傾向於到超商起貨或蝦皮的電到電"},{"start":15298.496,"end":15325.898,"text":"所以整個因為你蝦餅你到超商起貨蝦餅電稻店你的那個那個稻宅配送這個部分就會比較少而且電稻店的單價會比較便宜那所以就是說我這個277.24億就是說可能要達到可能比較不容易而且如果用跟113年結算比我們有增加4.66億然後跟113年的預估整年度整個預算數"},{"start":15327.539,"end":15345.795,"text":"那個預估數比起來261.8億會增加15億所以這個部分希望那個召委這邊看能不能體諒一下那第三個就是保惠收入這個部分因為就是因為金管會對於那個保險傾向於就是保障型"},{"start":15346.715,"end":15362.307,"text":"就是說不鼓勵除息型那另外就還有一個最主要原因就是說因為這一兩年那個就是說金融投資交易熱絡那投資報酬率很高很多人投保意願跟著降低所以我們就是說希望看能不能就是114年能夠跟113年的那個預算數一樣就好"},{"start":15367.689,"end":15391.886,"text":"那第四個那就大概這樣子謝謝好聽到說明那我們就那增略1%好不好看起來比較少一點1%那個很大那個像那個那個那個保險800多1%那個那個金額蠻大的對啊所以我是在說1億的話是趴在地下也不知道算千分之幾趴啦"},{"start":15392.546,"end":15417.715,"text":"好不好這樣好不好我們增列五千萬啦2473億的收入預算整個營業收入我們就增列五千萬好不好給你們鼓勵啦因為你們現在這個勞務收入你們自己減編了比一三年減少了將近兩億嘛一億九那我們就希望再增加一點要有信心啦報告三位可不可以就兩千萬就好增列兩千萬就好"},{"start":15418.835,"end":15434.217,"text":"因為事實上真的因為今年因為去年我們有造成虧損那今年就是說各項業務其實也都也都不大容易要達成一些既定的營運目標也不大容易這不要再討論了就增列三千萬好不好增列三千萬"},{"start":15436.5,"end":15454.638,"text":"好好不好我給你們鼓勵收入希望你們增加一點是鼓勵增列3000萬好各位有沒有不同意見那報告召委那科目讓我們自行來調整自行調整你希望調整到哪裡心中有知道哪裡會賺錢的嗎突然想到了對不對好OK好謝謝召委"},{"start":15455.917,"end":15476.048,"text":"接下來處理第5到26案服務費用的部分總金額是107億5564萬元有沒有提案委員要補充說明的林國成委員本席提第18案跟25案看起來似乎"},{"start":15477.128,"end":15495.22,"text":"我是主張建議刪減100多億然後刪減1000萬以上這些由主席來做決定好謝謝林委員接下來陳書業召委"},{"start":15496.411,"end":15520.976,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那本席在這個科目有提了第十一案二十跟二十三案那第十一案就是針對郵政公司在郵件運輸費暫儲包裝代理及加工費這個預算科目那我們看到就是說在中華郵政公司在處理這個郵件的業務我們看到它的這個就是業務是逐年在衰退"},{"start":15521.656,"end":15545.495,"text":"那在114年度的預算數預估數就是叫112年還是有減少了4.59%那預算數卻增加了所以在這個部分就是本席希望中華郵政公司就是針對我們郵政單位的數位平台跟郵務系統的一個缺失要提出一個說明一個書面報告那本席是提這個凍結預算1000萬元"},{"start":15548.447,"end":15575.124,"text":"那再來第20案的一個部分就是我也是提凍結案預算數1000萬元就是針對這個業務費用服務費用專業服務費電腦軟體服務費這個部分因為我們看到中環郵政公司在這個數位化的這個程度叫民間物流公司還是這個部分還是有待加強那我們也看到董事長之前也有指示說要要求資訊處要來"},{"start":15577.665,"end":15592.83,"text":"盤點郵政單位的APP跟網路問題要彙整出郵政數位發展藍圖可是這個所謂的郵政數位發展藍圖的具體內容是什麼我們也希望就是郵政公司這邊提出一個書面報告後 使得動之"},{"start":15595.768,"end":15608.625,"text":"好那再來第23案第23案就是我們郵政公司在研究發展費用專用業服務費這個部分在明年度的預算有編了600萬元那我們相較就是說在"},{"start":15612.73,"end":15638.667,"text":"112年度的這個決算數僅執行了175萬5千元所以在這個部分我們也希望就是說郵政公司在預算上能夠確實的能夠落實執行不要服變所以我是提三減預算數100萬元然後凍結100萬然後請就是郵政公司這邊也要提出一個書面報告後來使得動之謝謝好謝謝接下來林沛翔委員"},{"start":15641.141,"end":15648.089,"text":"好謝謝主席本席是獎勵案第16案推展費本來是3.2百萬 凍結40%經過溝通之後改為3.1百萬 凍結10%以上改成書面報告好 呂崑哲委員"},{"start":15659.793,"end":15677.09,"text":"好 謝謝有關於外包會預算編列14億6674萬元主要是作為禁用勞務承攬人力這個部分的經費那其實這幾年郵政公司對於郵政公司員工的權益"},{"start":15678.411,"end":15704.232,"text":"其實努力的成績是應該給予肯定不管是直接人員總和金融人員相關的這些權益的這個保障或者是烤雞移等做調整等等王國才董事長都有在第一線努力的為郵政勞工來爭取權益但是我們交通委員會我看我們"},{"start":15705.453,"end":15719.654,"text":"不文黨派的委員對於相關外包費有關於勞務承攬這些人力的勞工權益我們認為是保障不足啦應該是要加強督促"},{"start":15720.897,"end":15734.454,"text":"承攬公司對於外包人力的權益保障那我是建議不要刪減啦因為他們對於郵政勞工或者是外包的這些啊對於郵政公司編制內的"},{"start":15736.256,"end":15759.54,"text":"勞工權益這幾年的努力成績是看得見那對於外包的部分我們應該要給督促請郵政公司對於外包的勞務承攬必須要保障這些勞工的權益我是建議凍結預算1000萬提出書面報告後解凍以上好 謝謝李委員"},{"start":15763.854,"end":15782.5,"text":"好這個部分我個人提了兩案第一個是第五案第五案最主要這邊是凍結十億十分之一左右那主要的原因是因為我們也發覺最近在網間的詐騙集團利用中華郵政為名因為中華郵政是我們一般"},{"start":15783.34,"end":15798.713,"text":"小市民大家非常信賴依賴的一個單位而且不管是郵儲啊或者保險啊或者相關的業務郵寄的業務跟你們接觸最多最值得信賴可是發現除了釣魚郵件"},{"start":15800.014,"end":15822.591,"text":"釣魚簡訊 透過email等等的最近啊 甚至有在通知單留下遊牧專營的手機號碼等等啊 也造成了真正的詐騙得逞那我 因為我們剛剛才審過數位部啊那數位部其實他沒有在努力啦但講了半天也講不清楚啦那除了他們努力 我覺得各個單位也要自立自強啊"},{"start":15823.311,"end":15845.978,"text":"因為你們分支點是最深入各個鄉鎮各個脈絡的你們在維學館這個部分我覺得對你們自己本身本身的部分我覺得應該要更積極的作為所以洞爵是希望你們想一些方法好想一些方法那不光是說打炸國家隊跟我們沒關係那再來是第二次案我這邊是"},{"start":15847.599,"end":15875.322,"text":"是希望能夠全數減劣的原因呢最主要是第24案你們113年編600萬那目前執行率是27%所以說你們這是研究發展費用好像無法可言啦就是感覺可有可無的然後大家也不希望進步或是說沒有什麼議題可以創新的或者你們覺得創新了可能在"},{"start":15877.022,"end":15893.027,"text":"團隊人接受的比例也比較低那我不清楚什麼原因那至少我們看到113年用不到三分之一的經費那你今年又編了600萬所以這個部分我覺得很奇怪那尤其從112年你們本來600萬編的五項計畫只完成了三項兩項根本沒有辦理那113年呢"},{"start":15902.284,"end":15925.946,"text":"有包括兩項計劃更改內容三項暫緩我就覺得好像就是每年六百萬先框在那裡然後回去再想想到再用一下可是我們在審查預算的時候似乎不能這樣開張支票想用就用不想用就算了那每年度檢討你到底該用多少你能用多少那我們委員在審預算的時候給你該用的"},{"start":15926.486,"end":15952.344,"text":"給你 那我覺得就足夠了所以我在這裡是這個提要如果說你們真的去年都 今年都用不完所以我提全數減劣這兩個提案來 我們請中華郵政說明好 那個首先針對那個林國成委員就是關於那個研究發展會這個部分事實上研究發展會這個部分600萬我們那個114年有編了商案商案要執行 那商案剛好是300萬"},{"start":15954.205,"end":15969.542,"text":"那另外就是關於那個陳樹業委員所提的就是113年的那個研究發展會執行600萬執行率遍地只有100幾萬不過我們12月經過驗收然後付款之後目前是執行率是達到581萬"},{"start":15971.084,"end":15986.177,"text":"那另外在114年我們還是有編了三個案子例如說那個物流業者的定價策略跟作業流程還有人工智慧還有我們的資料資料治理導入方案這三個六百萬所以114年可能這個六百萬還是用得到"},{"start":15987.758,"end":16014.771,"text":"那另外就是針對針對那個調漲工資這個部分調漲工資這個部分因為雖然就是說雖然我們的預算數暫儲包裝代理加工會的預算數有調比113年調漲了5.73%不過因為公告勞工基本工資就要調4.08%那調漲基本工資之後的勞健保惠及提繳勞工退休金也相對要提高所以"},{"start":16015.111,"end":16042.998,"text":"增加5.73%是不是應該也是合理的另外李崑哲委員有提到就是關於勞工權益的部分事實上我們的工會就是說工程我們有依照工程會的企業範本來訂定那相關的一些勞工的勞健保勞剛才講的勞動退休金還有職財保險等等我們都會核實的給付所以在勞工權益的方面事實上我們也是非常的用心"},{"start":16044.338,"end":16069.749,"text":"那另外就是林沛翔委員針對這個減劣100萬的部分因為事實上我們114年的肌肉收入這個部分事實上我們就是因為就是說因為我們的數字是跟那個113年一樣那雖然比112年還高如果跟113年的前年的一估數比較起來我們的"},{"start":16070.849,"end":16091.078,"text":"五億六千八百九十萬這個部分應該也就是說我們要努力去達成因為我們今年113年大概沒有辦法達成那我們會努力來達成希望看能不能就是這個退展會的部分不要減劣不要減劣一百萬然後另外就是魯明哲委員所提的有也是"},{"start":16092.038,"end":16106.845,"text":"關於就是那個也是那個研究發展會的部分就是剛才有提到113年事實上我們有達到581萬那114年我們也編列三個案子也是要600萬那另外就是提到沒有積極防炸這個部分其實我們113年有主炸2030件主炸金額達到8.2億元"},{"start":16112.228,"end":16123.889,"text":"那113年的113年的執行率偏低最主要就是因為我們的有一些113年案子是到113年才驗收付款所以造成了這個延誤以上報告謝謝"},{"start":16127.927,"end":16139.876,"text":"所以113年偏低的原因是有些案子也是到113年才驗收付款112年112年偏低是113年不113年才付款你113年偏低的原因呢113年他到11月是100多萬但是到12月的時候我們已經執行到581萬就快用完了對對對"},{"start":16152.594,"end":16177.907,"text":"好那這樣好不好我們現在這個大家有討論過了那我們那個服務費用的部分總共是107億5564那事實上整體預算比去年我們看了一下少了一點1億啦那各委員提案有刪除的從幾十萬到大概1000到2000堆疊加起來大概有2000萬那這個部分我們來統一處理"},{"start":16185.018,"end":16185.522,"text":"我們申請500萬元"},{"start":16191.221,"end":16208.336,"text":"凍結5% 呃 針對各委員的提供說明齁 使得凍滋啦沒有因為他們分散到各個郵局啦齁全台灣這麼多的郵局齁5百萬還舉手啊不用舉手了吧5%那個凍結 欸那個3個隊啊 特別凍結改成那個5 那個1億啦 好不好就是說因為 這個5% 這個107億我感覺5%比較少欸好 好 好 好 好 好 好"},{"start":16215.882,"end":16229.557,"text":"好好好謝謝沒差啦因為5%你就提供書面報告啦也沒叫你專案報告啦好不好凍結的部分不要太在那個引發爭議那我們就做這樣處理3減500萬凍結5%書面報告使得動之謝謝科目自行調整"},{"start":16243.223,"end":16264.517,"text":"好各位沒有問題我們接下來處理第27到40案有沒有委員要補充說明的 許副委員謝謝主席我提出第27 28 29 30還有39 40共6個案子那其中27到30部分是有針對我們中華郵政公司在112年度我們的決算竟虧損了16億多"},{"start":16269.941,"end":16282.784,"text":"那教育算數更是大幅減少105億多那檢視我們的主要的營業項目裡面其中包含郵件匯兌跟檢疫授權這三項這個營業的減少的金額非常的多從5900萬到475億之間那這個部分我想"},{"start":16291.446,"end":16307.817,"text":"未來我們要求這個中華郵政應該要檢討這個整個提升收入一個對策那這個連動就是在於28案的部分我想因為這樣一個虧損造成我們中華郵政公司在這個招考人力的部分好減少那造成很多地方"},{"start":16308.317,"end":16337.406,"text":"的欲缺不補或是沒辦法解決一個人力的一個缺口造成我們的同仁的一個工作負擔的加重或是無法做一個調動的一個處理那所以這部分我們希望提出檢討那29案的部分我想中華郵政為了要提供客戶更便利多元的一個開戶方式滿足我們現在數位的一個客群需求那應該要去檢視所謂的一個數位存款的帳戶的一個狀況那要持續的一個進行優化的一個服務"},{"start":16338.286,"end":16353.755,"text":"那30案的部分有鑒於這個郵政專用信箱的一個失控背景目前我們檢視之後發現從110年到113年7月初中的情形有減少從13萬6千多減少了2500多個"},{"start":16357.617,"end":16378.309,"text":"那出租數更是大幅減少五千多個剩下八萬四千多那我想中華郵政公司為了避免這個信箱空置出租率過低也應該逐步檢討這樣的一個業務的需求那所以這個四個案子我們提出凍結勞務成本各一億元提出書面說明那39案的部分"},{"start":16381.264,"end":16405.526,"text":"有鉴於這個中華郵政公司最近幾年在於受險收入投保率跟普及率都有下降的一個狀況那我們現在看到我們受險的新契約被保險人我們還是偏重在所謂的一個中高年的部分所以我想中華郵政公司也應該積極開拓一個年輕族群的一個保險市場增加一個受險的收益"},{"start":16406.667,"end":16431.685,"text":"那40案的部分有介於這個電子網路這個投保業務我想其他的授權公司大家都碰撥發展那但是我們中華郵政公司成長的比例偏低只有在目前為止看到只有增加1.69%那尤其又是以員工的一個電子保單的契約為主那可見我們這個中華郵政公司在推廣這個網路投保跟"},{"start":16432.685,"end":16449.731,"text":"保單電子貨的部分這個有加強的空間那所以我們針對這個兼容保險成本部分也提出凍結1億元那請中華郵輪公司提出相關的一個書面報告時的動之好謝謝好接下來陳樹葉召委再來林國成委員"},{"start":16453.102,"end":16476.224,"text":"謝謝主席那本席針對中華郵政公司在114年度預算編列其他油物成本材料及用品費有編列兩億三千兩百八十八萬元一千元這樣子的預算來辦理規劃設計及開發製作及油商品等費用那我們也看到中華郵政公司這次搭上了這個棒球的熱潮"},{"start":16477.585,"end":16502.001,"text":"針對我們中華職棒台灣英雄奪下了這個十二強賽的一個冠軍有來發行相關的紀念郵票紀念存摺然後也引發搶購的熱潮這個我們給予肯定所以本期這個提案主要是希望就是這個中華郵政公司能夠多有這樣子的一個創新形象的一個思維然後創造更多營業的一個收益那我這個提案我就是改成主決議謝謝"},{"start":16504.471,"end":16518.945,"text":"好謝謝接下來林國成委員好我想郵政公司基本上我在看他們也已經按部就班行之有連那雖然我提了31案"},{"start":16520.926,"end":16535.571,"text":"跟34案我是希望還是要凍結一下書面報告我是建議凍結20%然後提出書面報告以上好那我們請中華郵政來說明一下"},{"start":16536.651,"end":16557.605,"text":"針對那個習委員所提的就是113年虧16.5億其實這個最主要就是我們的海外投資的避險成本造成的就是我們在海外投資大概有1兆2600億那因為都是外幣基價以美金為主那這個因為利差兩國的利差造成我們避險成本在去年虧損了294億那今年也應該接近這個數字並沒有減少"},{"start":16564.449,"end":16586.624,"text":"那另外招考人員逾缺不補其實並沒有逾缺不補的情形就是說事實上因為油務造成的虧損我們去年虧了3億多那今年大概要虧16億那因為虧損表示說你的油件量減少那你支出如果支出不變那你收入減少然後支出又不變的話整個虧損就會擴大所以這個是"},{"start":16587.965,"end":16611.117,"text":"並不是亦缺不補最主要就是郵件量下跌所以我們必須要遵截一些人手不然郵務的虧損沒有辦法去改變那另外數位存款帳戶這個確實就是推動的沒有達到我們預期的效果不過就是說因為最主要就是數位存款帳戶它增加一個帳戶但是它很多功能也慢慢的在我們的實體存款帳戶裡面的APP裡面也可以去達成所以"},{"start":16611.517,"end":16617.932,"text":"迫切性沒有那麼足夠不過我們還是會努力提供一些獎勵措施來推升數位成本帳戶"},{"start":16619.011,"end":16640.498,"text":"那專用信箱衰退確實也是衰退就是你的信箱數跟你的租用數確實是衰退那這個我們也會積極的透過一些來研議看看就是說到底專用信箱衰退的原因或者必須用什麼手段來一些獎勵來引起各級來積極來促銷專用信箱"},{"start":16642.879,"end":16670.87,"text":"那授權收入減少最主要保障還是在中高年人最主要就是說因為那個比較年輕人他可能他的經濟他的收入收益並沒有那麼高那另外就是因為剛才有提到就是金融投資的收益性比較高那很多年輕人認為說我賺這麼多錢我可能就是來買一些金融性商品或者就是說我的錢根本也沒有嫌疑的錢來繳付這個授權收入那我們會"},{"start":16672.03,"end":16689.29,"text":"透過一些行銷活動來鼓勵就是來招攬一些年輕人另外就是那個網路投保的部分我們事實上我們在今年有推動一個新的88的定期授權我們希望透過這個新的授權能夠"},{"start":16690.959,"end":16705.694,"text":"在網路頭髮或者電子保單這一方面能夠有所注意那另外就是陳樹業委員所提到的剛才有提到我們的那個材料用品還有就是提到那個12強就是鼓勵我們多做一些那個"},{"start":16706.975,"end":16735.525,"text":"極有的行銷部分那確實在在今年的我們11月24號取得那個棒球12強世界賽冠軍的時候我們有推出了明信片跟我們的那個遊者遊者然後還有個人化遊票那這一組最近看起來就是說我們大概我們的遊者的部分我們大概可以賣了兩萬兩萬三千多本然後明信片有賣了十幾萬張那整個加起來有有大概有一千一千一千"},{"start":16736.025,"end":16762.615,"text":"一千兩百萬左右的一些收入那另外林國成委員所提到的這個第31案跟第34案剛才有提到就是其實他像剛提到的就是像窗口才了兩百幾元最主要就是因為事實上現在零貴的成分就是說一般年輕人都不零貴大部分零貴都是大概六十歲以上那所以你的整個業務量整體的業務量是衰退那如果你"},{"start":16763.155,"end":16777.746,"text":"因為量衰退然後你沒有人員四度終結的話那要達成公司的營業是不容易所以我們按照我們的人數評給標準應該是要採200多個但是事實上我們也沒有採那麼多只有採100多個"},{"start":16779.307,"end":16806.703,"text":"那另外就是因為現在網路那麼發達那很多事情都是臨櫃可以完成那即使這另一方面也顯現說郵局做了一些改變方便我們的儲戶就是說你很多很多那個業務不必到郵局來辦理在那個網路上就可以完成了那希望就是說各位委員支持我們的一些一些就是盡量就是就是盡量支持我們郵局的預算謝謝"},{"start":16808.084,"end":16827.775,"text":"好請王董事長補充說明好各位委員大家好我想大家很關心我們112年的結算就是郵政公司首度的虧了16億好跟各位報告經過我們去年下半年下半年大家努力去年已經轉虧為盈了大概可以賺25億"},{"start":16829.278,"end":16858.5,"text":"那的確在郵局這邊郵政公司是面臨到很大的挑戰郵件減少包裹競爭然後我們的壽險還包括儲備都面臨包括銀行跟壽險公司的競爭雖然剛剛9位所提的很好比如說我們郵政專用信箱現在是使用率是6成但是我們的Io箱大概5成多我們現在也在不管是Io箱把它轉成這個我們叫做這個寄取店還有包括數量的"},{"start":16859.321,"end":16887.181,"text":"我們因為櫃檯來的很少以後我們這個櫃檯有一些也會把它變成比如說愛遊鄉或是這方面的一部分也就是說遊物的轉型現在是最重要的一件事情了郵政公最重要的一件事情現在也都這個按照我們的步伐包括在數位轉型還有包括我們客戶關係的維持也都持續在進行中那很謝謝各位的支持 謝謝"},{"start":16889.602,"end":16906.995,"text":"好這個謝謝中華郵政的說明那我們這本案提案的委員大致已經補充說明完畢看一下我們刪減的部分刪減的部分到現在是到40案好那從幾百萬到1億多這邊要先講委員對刪減有沒什麼堅持"},{"start":16916.297,"end":16938.788,"text":"OK 沒有沒有堅持嗎好我想這樣因為這個項目這個費用是蠻多的但是我覺得對於我們第一線的遊客人士費用也在這裡為了避免錯誤傳達訊息我覺得這個部分我們就採凍結給他們說明各位委員有沒有其他的想法"},{"start":16940.029,"end":16963.665,"text":"對我沒問題就不刪那我們凍結凍結10%請你們提供書面報告各委員提的方向不一樣請你針對各委員提書面報告後時得凍之好各位如果沒有意見我們就接續往下等一下待會有個案就三期案三期案改組決議我們繼續處理41案到46案"},{"start":16974.906,"end":16985.608,"text":"有關於43案管理費用的預算編列了31億6587萬我們依據違反勞動法律事業單位僱主的查詢系統資訊中環郵政公司在113年度發生了兩件違反勞動基準法的違規狀態違反的內容包括延長工時"},{"start":17002.372,"end":17019.158,"text":"衛醫規定加給工資衛醫法給付休息日工作工資或者是衛醫規定每七日中給予勞工一日例假及一日休息日這個嚴重影響郵政勞工的權利應該要檢討改善"},{"start":17019.838,"end":17045.183,"text":"那郵政公司這幾年對於勞工權的保障有在努力但是還是有這些事情那應該要檢討改善那有來做說明啦我可以同意改動解一千萬提書面報告後解凍以上好林國成委員我是44案啦沒啦我講一下啦沒關係啦"},{"start":17046.673,"end":17064.868,"text":"沒有啦 我講一下 媽你遇到王國才就什麼都不能動我是提凍結啦 本來是百分之二十可是在這個部分有主席來做裁定啦好 我是提案如書面說明 請中華郵政來說明"},{"start":17071.145,"end":17086.445,"text":"李君哲委所提的就是兩件違反勞基法這個部分其實第一案我們是被就是說因為他認為說我們沒有給他工資但最主要就是這個員工他沒有上班然後戶頭解清了那後來我們有到法院去提出但是那個"},{"start":17087.767,"end":17104.057,"text":"後來還是被裁判了我們有提起訴願訴願被駁回但是我們還是提起刑律訴訟那另外就是第二個勞基法這個部分我們就是可能就是我們的主管信念不足了代班主管沒有去注意到這個這個我們也會去做一個改善"},{"start":17104.717,"end":17119.833,"text":"那另外就是林國成委員就是關於那個重視交通車輛違規這個案件事實上我們是113年確實比113年還要多啦那我們會已經要求各級加強去注意尤其是因為現在科技執法所以一些違規會比較嚴格那我們已經對謝謝謝謝"},{"start":17128.161,"end":17141.19,"text":"總經理我跟你講我在當議員16年都幫你們開了很多協調會也就是他確確實實在這個部分在交通法規裡面他是不把你們納入是緊急人員的"},{"start":17142.131,"end":17163.669,"text":"那都是市警局我幫你們開了好多節省了好多單子那我是認為這個也要把它當成一個問題來研究到底是不是請求警察局或者交通法規這裡要把你們拉進去或者你們應該要怎麼約束這個部分我還是建議啊還是建議一定要做"},{"start":17165.851,"end":17186.935,"text":"好的這個階段因為所有委員提案的方向不一但是都是凍結10到20%那我們就採凍結10%請提書面說明 使得動之各位有沒有不同意見沒有不同意見對啊就整體啊整體整體整體整體啦好各位沒有問題我們接續處理第47到第49案"},{"start":17199.854,"end":17209.247,"text":"身處的部分可能李昆哲委員要發言一下好 謝謝固定資產建設及改良這個預算47億8925萬元相關的預算包含了這些專案計畫一般建築及設備等等"},{"start":17216.337,"end":17228.365,"text":"那過去部分專案我們來考量他執行的狀況不佳啦所以說因為執行狀況不佳所以我建議刪減預算五千萬凍結五千萬提書面報告後解凍以上"},{"start":17238.873,"end":17264.28,"text":"我們請中華郵政說明執行不佳的情況說明一下最主要就是因為我們台北郵企都更這是一個很大的工程但是因為台北郵企的那個北門那個博物館那個那個是試定古蹟那試定古蹟你要去翻建可能必須要經過那個那個文資審議那最主要就是文資審議這邊卡到了所以影響到我們後續的一個那個一些工程的一些執行那這個是不"},{"start":17265.281,"end":17271.44,"text":"沒有辦法因為事實上文職審議他也獨立的他沒有辦法去就是說影響他的所作的決定謝謝"},{"start":17273.206,"end":17301.059,"text":"好林國東也不管是董事長或總經理都可以回答我們油儲現在投入股市的投資報酬率有多少金額有多少請說明一下好不好那個投資股市大概2500億左右那分儲位跟授權那儲位大概7點多吧那授權應該10點多對對報酬率因為7點多當然是比較少因為油局不是不是因為我們"},{"start":17302.559,"end":17326.047,"text":"總共16 平均16啦 到目前16那最主要 阿不然你告訴我看11月的數字 到底多少報酬率 報期率多少整個年度報酬率是16%對啊 中間率你要暗槓嗎不是 我是算到11月我的資料是到11月哇 你12月一下賺8%有可能啊 中間率 我跟你講"},{"start":17327.327,"end":17349.39,"text":"我會問這些東西就是我多少也列之一二喔所以不要這樣啦 總經理我們說實在的 到底多少對 到了12月底的話是16%對嘛 對嘛 好啦加強一下啦 人家都賺爆了你們還是只有18%多好啦好啦好啦"},{"start":17352.855,"end":17358.827,"text":"那個 崑德偉崑德偉部長剛剛上台 你去刪人家五千塊幹什麼"},{"start":17362.606,"end":17384.696,"text":"剛才那個總經理已經說明的很清楚因為他這屬於文資審議所以這個行政程序繁瑣他沒有辦法去執行就是說他的執行率會不佳那你要三五千啊他三五千然後保留然後凍結五千啊還是三五千啊這符合他們的這些執行率董事長還要三五千嗎差不多啦可以啦沒問題"},{"start":17387.88,"end":17410.112,"text":"是不是2500好了因為我想說因為我想說我們北門的都更我現在也在催他們不要說好像就是認為執行不到我覺得我要提醒郵政公司都更是很重要但是文資的保護更是重要的工作以上"},{"start":17411.533,"end":17434.829,"text":"好 這樣好不好大家已經討論到一定的階段了因為我覺得也請中華郵政能夠了解委員在審預算每一個不管是凍結3它有它的一個背景跟意義啦有意義也就是說你做得很慢或者你困難沒辦法解決我們什麼都不說就這樣過了對委員會很奇怪那這樣我們是不是就3.3千萬啦好不好3.3千萬凍結5千萬提供書面報告16通知"},{"start":17441.445,"end":17447.829,"text":"因為他不差五百萬你知道嗎我在看崑哲偉呢"},{"start":17450.785,"end":17473.939,"text":"好沒關係那我們就刪減2500萬凍結5000萬提供書面報告使得動之科目自行調整但要拜託中華優政很多案子不是放在那邊每年省預算基本上都沒什麼動作這樣是不行的好大家沒有意見我們接續處理主決議我們決議案50案到60案請各位翻開第50案"},{"start":17487.372,"end":17501.891,"text":"好第五十案中間還有人有問題嗎遵照辦理好那第五十案照案通過第五十一案遵照辦理第五十一案照案通過第五十二案遵照辦理第五十二案照案通過第五十三案遵照辦理"},{"start":17502.332,"end":17525.436,"text":"第53案 遭案通過第54案 徵照辦理第54案 遭案通過第55案 徵照辦理第55案 遭案通過第56案 徵照辦理第56案 遭案通過第57案 徵照辦理第57案 遭案通過第58案 徵照辦理第58案 遭案通過第59案 徵照辦理第59案 遭案通過第60案 徵照辦理第60案 遭案通過第61案 徵照辦理第61案 遭案通過第62案 徵照辦理"},{"start":17530.751,"end":17531.251,"text":"我先回去了"},{"start":17564.988,"end":17569.132,"text":"市長那個登位部長已經答應兩次了就是他們現在就是"},{"start":17585.224,"end":17601.035,"text":"然後觀光局是一千兩百萬然後剩下三千七百萬是去年台南美式公路組織那他們現在就是每次都要上千啦因為這個拜託晚吃一下答應我兩次不要為這個事情在我上次開會的時候我現在現在也不會有我先去買這次的"},{"start":17613.103,"end":17626.752,"text":"我再問一下我昨天才跟陳局長幫忙通電話我說陳辦人不知道他在把我的事情當作沒事啊他確實有跟我的申請3800萬這個部分我們要上千拜託跟我來催一下這種一定要給的做盤面之外不要我催的盤面真的沒有"},{"start":17643.243,"end":17644.204,"text":"幫忙一下 好不好謝謝"},{"start":17672.072,"end":17673.273,"text":"這裏面有個寬窗"},{"start":17698.744,"end":17700.688,"text":"你还不回去我两个月没回去"},{"start":17712.76,"end":17718.261,"text":"我會啊 現場議長 立委 你看不看不亮這樣得了啊老闆已經說了 那不值得再講話了你去抽煙啊你陪他去抽煙啊"},{"start":17742.065,"end":17755.614,"text":"我要退回一串我不懂啦我看官方都認得你過程三盤 二盤 三盤你都這樣做 等一下要做好料啦兩次賣一下 扣打 扣打兩次一個案子兩次喔對面都很大"},{"start":17777.903,"end":17779.925,"text":"這裏都沒有腦袋"},{"start":17798.365,"end":17798.866,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":17862.442,"end":17863.182,"text":"不用喉嚨出來"},{"start":17885.341,"end":17894.808,"text":"好各位委員我們繼續開會接下來我們要處理觀光署相關的一個預算我們補充介紹我們觀光署周永輝署長"},{"start":17897.732,"end":17904.066,"text":"還有我們主計是杜曉英主任杜主任剩下都是團隊嘛OK"},{"start":17908.379,"end":17931.255,"text":"好的 請各位委員翻開交通部觀光署及所屬114年年份可否 要退回啊沒有 可否 讓我說幾句話我本來原本是把基金跟觀光署的預算要退回去 第一個"},{"start":17932.316,"end":17955.169,"text":"我是替立法委員啊爭取尊嚴的問題我要拜託次長拜託署長立法委員反映給你們有兩個問題我極為不滿第一大鵬灣他是花生車禍之後圍欄以及電線桿損壞之後我反映請他們儘快繼續結果"},{"start":17962.165,"end":17976.479,"text":"偷了老半天還騙委員說修好結果我叫人去看根本沒有修這個是對立法院非常不尊重的這是第一點第二點人民的請願案我反映給署長"},{"start":17977.68,"end":18002.032,"text":"署長你也答應要處理我認為公務人員依法行政這是OK的但是人民油沉淹案立法委員要提出這些陳情案那大家可以大家來協調溝通本來就是這樣署長你知道可以放縱你的處長都不處理搞了"},{"start":18004.173,"end":18010.639,"text":"半年都不處理所以本來我對這些預算是非常有意見的但是"},{"start":18012.413,"end":18036.431,"text":"經過昨天署長你也答應我但是現在在開會有錄音請問你我現在那個陳情案件人家是有理由的你看也認為不行的啊你們到底要不要處理我要你答覆要不要處理那個次長你知道這件事情我坦白跟你講找署長以後"},{"start":18038.012,"end":18052.499,"text":"沒有用我才去找部長可是找部長還是一個月沒有下文啊部長跟我講說他有交代啦為什麼會產生這個問題這是對一個立法委員非常不尊重不是只有我的問題"},{"start":18053.703,"end":18071.937,"text":"有可能發生到所有委員的身上所以這個我坦白跟次長講也要跟署長講屬下所做的事情雖然你們無法去監督他就代表你們領導有問題所以我要你如果要審"},{"start":18073.945,"end":18097.601,"text":"請問第一個這個事情人民懲驗案要不要解決你只要說要解決今天大家來審預算我沒意見只要做不到那很簡單我們就等事情解決以後再來審這個預算第一個第二個如果做不到那我也贊成送大會再來審這以上這是我身為一個立法委員"},{"start":18098.502,"end":18118.638,"text":"被公務機關欺負的一個心聲我希望各位委員能夠體諒我這些並非是找麻煩只是我把一個立法委員遇到的事情提出來給次長給署長你了解這些事情如何去處理"},{"start":18120.66,"end":18141.555,"text":"好 謝謝林委員 謝謝你們廣泛討論的概念不是 你一個委員這樣跟你們講那麼多 也講到部長處理到這樣我覺得怪怪的你這樣好不好 真的回應一下真的跟昭和跟各位委員報告一下委員有提示這兩個案子我們也確實覺得處理得不夠積極"},{"start":18143.096,"end":18167.329,"text":"第一個案子可能大家也都有碰到就是說我們有一些譬如說我們的公用設施然後有違規的車輛駕駛人把它撞壞了撞壞以後本來就是要賠償的這賠償的部分通常來講有幾種處理的模式我們管理處當時是按照原例就是撞壞的要賠所以撞壞的去修好"},{"start":18168.149,"end":18187.59,"text":"那可是撞壞人他並沒有把他修好那當然就是我們自己要先修然後安全優先然後我們再去去球場所以想說方法要善巧我這個也利用這個機會表達那也處理完那第二個是因為三坨台風啦三坨台風也是一樣"},{"start":18188.351,"end":18208.311,"text":"有些民眾的審議我們也希望能夠更圓滿那這個方式我們已經都已經協調好了這也是請委員放心那麼也按照這個協議的部分達成協議特別利用這個機會跟大家報告說明一下好我們希望有錄音錄影為憑"},{"start":18218.251,"end":18239.52,"text":"麥克風要記錄一下其實部長我跟他反映以後他也覺得不可思議這麼小的事情簽到的人民權利為什麼處理這樣部長也覺得很怪所以部長當然也答應說這個一定要處理所以市長你也知道這個事當然我不是針對署長啦"},{"start":18241.181,"end":18261.631,"text":"因為我那邊被騙了一遍所以我心裡面覺得所以為什麼要在開會的時候我要去請你承諾要處理就審一算不處理就擇日再審這個很簡單好不好昨天晚上郭城委員跟我有溝通協調我們也找署長電話上也溝通協調"},{"start":18264.412,"end":18293.233,"text":"我想署長你講的話也算話吧好不好我也是掛個人頭保證人在這邊啊好不好那郭政委員受到那麼不尊重的待遇啊聽說你們處長也換人了嘛是不是處長也換掉了嘛齁處長換掉了啦好不好請郭政委員你就喜怒一下好不好畢竟他們參議算是你的選擇我干涉不了你啊好不好謝謝啦好不好"},{"start":18295.273,"end":18321.46,"text":"好 今天其實建議署長啦 當然次長也在這裡啦很多的這樣的損害 我跟你講你一定要用待位求償的概念像路燈 路邊被撞斷了 路燈可能在路邊你說我要找那個撞的人陪完之後再修路燈這個拜託 以後遇到這個事情不要再民意代表或者人民提醒你你修好再待位求償 好不好這個部分希望這個未來才會這樣做"},{"start":18322.62,"end":18332.984,"text":"那我們現在就是繼續開始處理預算首先第一案第一案稅入罰款及賠償收入罰金罰還及貸金罰金罰還這個部分"},{"start":18338.786,"end":18366.438,"text":"提案委員 林委員 林國聰委員本席提這個第一案是想甄列說一百萬因為這個我在看現在的業務慢慢觀光也慢慢這個業績回籠所以應該甄列一百萬這個經過郭通他們也認為OK的我們遵照辦理好 第一案我們稅務"},{"start":18368.528,"end":18394.217,"text":"罰款及賠償收入罰金罰還及貸金罰金罰還我們增列100萬好沒有意見我們繼續審理第二案第二案是稅出的通案業務費水電費那這個部分是我個人有提案那當然對水電費的部分到後面我們看到你增加92萬比例上面不高"},{"start":18395.137,"end":18421.463,"text":"那我們還是希望能夠節能省碳尤其節電的部分政府率先來做那我這個第二案就改成主決議好不好希望你們來說明一下你們有什麼方法來去做好這樣的一個民眾的示範節能省碳是好第二案改為主決議好接下來處理第三到第七案第三到第七案"},{"start":18423.993,"end":18446.788,"text":"林國成委員好那個這裡我提了本席提了第四案跟第七案那本來我是要求三列五百萬那然後凍結百分之二十那其他的話經過溝通充分了解之後三預算的部分就不三所以兩個都希望凍結百分之十以上"},{"start":18450.905,"end":18467.829,"text":"好那邱文華委員這邊有要補充說明嗎沒有好沒有好好那我們就直接來處理現在3到7還沒有還沒有好我們現在是處理3到7第一幕一般行政的部分總經費是10億1892萬餘元啊啊"},{"start":18480.322,"end":18498.509,"text":"那有沒有三個委員要堅持的沒有嗎好好那一般行政的部分好我們凍結10%提供書面報告時的動之好"},{"start":18501.035,"end":18517.751,"text":"好 沒有意見 接續處理8到61案 這個案量非常多那這個請總共10億2,209萬餘元來 黃建豪委員再來 等一下 先有要講話的 何新淳委員好 林沛翔委員 陳樹葉召委好 先講"},{"start":18519.625,"end":18536.406,"text":"好 谢谢赵伟哦我提的是12 26 43跟54好那其实12跟26类似的部分就跟观光观光客的人次有关系一个是进来一个是出去进来部分当然这个他们也来说明了他们有些解释说进来要来"},{"start":18537.327,"end":18552.258,"text":"行銷針針對東南亞國家針對這個亞洲國家來行銷那因為這個來台理事的確一直沒有達成這個目標和到底後續要怎麼做我們希望說提出書面報告來解釋說到底要怎麼達成你們的這個目標的第一件事情他26號是針對"},{"start":18555.14,"end":18573.613,"text":"這個入客團的這部分就是我們出團去副入的組團的禁令的部分因為我想觀光署也是屬於執行單位這個可能不是你們的直接能夠管轄的政策這只是整個政府的上位政策要這樣做我想這還是要幫旅行業說一點話就是這個事情等於讓整個客群影響非常大"},{"start":18575.168,"end":18590.16,"text":"所以我是希望說也是提出凍結讓你們來說明那其實43案也是類似也是幫旅行業說話其實我們看到說現在出團的這個比例因為現在不能去大陸所以世界各國去出團但旅行業自己的營收其實相對是比較低的但是"},{"start":18591.281,"end":18607.162,"text":"機票的就是航空公司的這個稅後存益是很高的這很有趣啊就說如果今天航空公司跟旅行業之間應該是一個共生的談判的問題就是觀光署的角色應該是去幫忙旅行業業者來協助跟這個旅行航空業來談判來談判來溝通哦"},{"start":18608.544,"end":18627.522,"text":"因為既然都放在所謂交通部底下的相關單位我想他也是有原因的就是你要觀光跟交通有必然的關係那觀光業已經這麼慘淡了也不能去大陸那大陸也不能進來那他們變成要去開發其他的這個旅遊航線那出國旅遊航線最最主要的工具當然就是機票嘛"},{"start":18628.163,"end":18648.514,"text":"那結果就是我們可以看到說旅行業為了東省西省然後自己搞這麼辛苦但是我們的這個航空公司的稅收存益其實反而更高所以我們希望說在這個這一部分我們希望這個觀光署能夠協助我們旅行業者來跟航空公司來談判票價部分讓業者有利可圖了坦白說這樣子那讓民眾也能夠有比較好的這個出國消費的動機"},{"start":18649.835,"end":18677.063,"text":"那再來是這個54案是針對當然違法旅宿的部分這你有提到的時候你們有來說明這部分沒關係你們有來說明說這不是你們的主要業務這是變成地方政府在管轄但是我們要希望說觀光水上扮演好這個把關的角色地方政府怎麼樣去管理所謂違規的民宿違規旅館業你們要提供什麼樣準則或者甚至是你們應該去協調數位部來幫你們去偵測他們現在有說AI工具嘛打在有AI工具那是抓這個"},{"start":18678.383,"end":18701.194,"text":"違法的這個民宿跟旅館是不是也有相關的工具可以使用這個我希望你們做個整合 以上 謝謝好 何欣晨委員好 謝謝 本人在這一個項下有提三個案子那我先講我第三十案一 二 三 對 三個案子第三十案 我關心的是這個台灣PASS的這個問題因為我們公安署要推觀光"},{"start":18701.994,"end":18728.823,"text":"那觀光裡面我們分北中南東那過去呢我記得我們曾經在交通委員會裡面也有提醒觀光署應該把我們中央跟地方各種的Path應該要整合比如說像我們也經常去日本去韓國他們也都會以城市為中心去推一些這個Path那這個Path裡面一定會包含什麼交通各式各樣的交通運具還有呢觀光景點甚至呢還有地方商圈的消費折扣等等"},{"start":18730.003,"end":18759.122,"text":"那這個整合起來的要讓人家手上一卡一個pass是非常好用的才能夠促進這個國際觀光客來台的意願還有甚至深入到每一個城市的意願那我現在看到的是第一個我們從台灣pass之前的台灣好玩卡那成效到底怎麼樣我想署長等一下可以講一下起碼就我現在找到手上有的資料好像都著重在北北基跟南部那中台灣"},{"start":18760.263,"end":18785.197,"text":"好像已經有的縣市沒有涵蓋在裡面那我知道的是好像台中市現在就沒有在所謂的台灣 pass 裡面那這個對整個台灣的國際的一個不管是觀光旅遊還有呢我們城市間的一個觀光旅遊尤其對台中市來講我覺得是一個缺憾那這個第一個原因是什麼第二個我們如何可以在"},{"start":18786.318,"end":18809.93,"text":"整合 精進 希望能夠涵蓋到所有全台灣能夠去推動這樣子的一個台灣PASS 台灣好玩卡這第一個 第二個現在我又看到台灣PASS又有一個高鐵版你們又有進階版我剛剛講了 本來這種PASS就必須要有交通運具跟其他的配套交通運具以台灣現在來講 就高鐵 台鐵"},{"start":18813.021,"end":18827.219,"text":"那接著呢還有各個公路系統客運巴士等等那我就請教一下我們現在高鐵的這樣子的一個台灣PASS我們的成效如何那未來我們要如何精進因為我手上"},{"start":18828.22,"end":18845.309,"text":"拿到台灣PASS高鐵板到今年12月19號發行量勉強可以啦其實數字也不怎麼好啦那這個原因到底是在哪裡是因為不符合國際觀光客的需求還是他不好用還是怎樣我覺得"},{"start":18846.189,"end":18875.809,"text":"我希望這個觀光因為我的這個提案只是稍微凍結500萬元但是我是希望能夠給我們觀光署一個要求是不是可以好好的來告訴我們我們如何行銷台灣在這個國際觀光旅客進來台灣之後我們如何讓他們覺得方便好用又好玩而且又可以認識台灣覺得台灣是一個No.1的一個旅遊的一個首選這個部分我希望有書面報告之後"},{"start":18876.549,"end":18878.611,"text":"我記得有一個數字說全台灣大概超過200萬人以上是熱衷於這個"},{"start":18897.346,"end":18912.067,"text":"那露營除了有土地這個場地的合法問題要解決以外我覺得我們觀光署在這個要求業者是不是可以投保公共意外責任險這個部分可不可以要求"},{"start":18912.628,"end":18928.44,"text":"因為去露營我們都希望平安不要發生任何意外但是如果一旦發生意外如果我們沒有強制業者有這樣子一個投保的義務然後負擔起這個責任的話"},{"start":18932.482,"end":18948.549,"text":"應該說這個觀光客我們國人去露營的這個權益還有他的安全這個真的是會受到很大的影響那這個影響的不是只有說這個消費者之間跟民宿或是跟露營場地業者的一個糾紛問題我覺得這影響的還是我們整個對政府"},{"start":18951.826,"end":18973.942,"text":"管理露營這個產業的一個信任度到底我們有沒有能力管能不能管好能不能管得好我覺得這個是信任的問題我也凍結十分之一的預算希望公共署給我詳盡的一個對策那還有一個書面報告然後才可以動之那最後還有一個提案第三個提案"},{"start":18975.784,"end":18996.562,"text":"這個是有關我們在管理旅行業的業務的部分之安我們所有國人的各自的問題我可以跟大家講我曾經在我的手機上收到一個簡訊那是一個東南還是哪一個旅行社通知我的"},{"start":18997.262,"end":19007.931,"text":"那通知我說的因為呢疑似各自有外洩提醒我要有警覺但是我跟你講我收到這個簡訊的時候跟我跟你調到資料的時候這中間的時間差已經差了很久了我們現在要討論的是什麼"},{"start":19013.596,"end":19028.592,"text":"我們在2022年甚至幾乎每一年我們很多上市櫃的大型的旅行社都有發生這個他的客戶的個資外洩的事件他有可能是被駭客攻擊他有可能很多的不明原因我不知道"},{"start":19029.133,"end":19052.919,"text":"那各自外線我們現在的管理是要求旅行業者第一時間要通報我知道通報了之後他要怎麼趕快去查明原因跟改善有沒有要求期限內要改進要說明原因第二個我們有沒有要求他要用最快的速度來告知他的客戶他的顧客"},{"start":19054.179,"end":19081.993,"text":"有沒有個資外洩像我手上的這個簡訊已經離你們給我的資料那個旅行社通報有個資外洩的疑慮的時候他通報的時間點到我我這個消費者端收到簡訊這中間已經有一個多月的時間差而在這一個多月以來我都不知道原來我的個資是被外洩的那這個我們要怎麼解決啊"},{"start":19083.106,"end":19096.657,"text":"我到目前為止你們給我的這個報告裡面都沒有談到這個喔那如果這一個多月這個時間差裡面我因為個資被外洩我有一些權益上的損失那誰來負責任"},{"start":19098.658,"end":19113.682,"text":"那政府在這一端有沒有對旅行業的要求跟罰則或者是有沒有其他的一個精進跟補救措施我覺得這個事情很嚴重啦好不好所以呢我也是著動希望能夠的來檢討精進然後給我們書面報告後使得動之以上謝謝"},{"start":19118.939,"end":19137.667,"text":"好林培良委員接下來陳樹葉召委啊再來徐副國務委員好謝謝主席啊本席提的是第8第14第22第25跟第40號第42案那基本上來講其他的幾個案子都我們都有跟觀光署來協調過"},{"start":19139.028,"end":19146.971,"text":"只是針對第8案本席建議刪除7億6千萬經過溝通之後改為刪除2千萬其他的話針對是像說不好意思像第22案改為凍結10%改書面報告而第40案也改成書面報告換成處決也改成書面報告以上"},{"start":19167.625,"end":19190.576,"text":"好 謝謝 陳樹園 趙薇好 謝謝主席那本席在這個觀光業務項下這個部分觀光國際事務這個明年度的預算數是8792萬4千元這個項目我是提凍結案10%那主要我們知道說這一個科目的預算是希望辦理國際觀光事務加強對目標市場"},{"start":19193.777,"end":19216.769,"text":"吸引客源等業務我們是希望說我們在吸引客源之外也希望來台觀光的旅客能夠增加他們的消費額度這樣子才能夠確實讓我們國內的經濟能夠受益我們也看到就是說在疫情前的2019年每一個旅客來台的平均消費額是195.91"},{"start":19219.19,"end":19234.011,"text":"美元那在疫情後2023年他來台的這個停留的業數是比疫情前有多多了一天的時間那我們看到他的消費平均的消費額度是反而是減少是180.67美元"},{"start":19236.094,"end":19262.843,"text":"所以我們希望就是說在江部觀光署針對就是來台旅客的這個平均日消費額度這個部分我們要進行一些有具體的一個策略然後能夠提高這個在台來台旅客在台停留的業數跟消費的這個金額所以本席在這邊就是希望觀光署能夠提出這個書面報告後的動之那二十五十八案的部分就是"},{"start":19264.243,"end":19284.122,"text":"觀光業務向下的這個補助交通作業基金九億六千兩百五十萬元這個預算我們知道這個預算主要也是在補助地方政府就是透過就是提案競爭型的計畫來補助地方就是做一些優化或者是提升地方旅遊環境升級的這個部分"},{"start":19285.343,"end":19293.773,"text":"看到就是說我們對這樣子一個執行計畫也有一個就是績效的一個指標那是以就是說這個當年參訪遊憩區遊客的總數來做一個績效的一個指標那在108年度的時候我們看到這個"},{"start":19303.244,"end":19310.994,"text":"資料統計就是直轄市及縣市幾封景特定區的遊客人次就是有2010萬人2010萬人是一個參考基數那目前我們是設定113年到116年度的預計目標"},{"start":19319.324,"end":19333.788,"text":"指是在2010到2100萬就是2100萬旅客人次可是我們看到這個統計的人數在112年度直轄市及縣市及風景特定區實際遊客人次就已經有達到2297萬7千人所以我覺得說你們設定的這個績效指標是不是"},{"start":19341.79,"end":19366.261,"text":"低於這個112年度我覺得這樣子是不合理的啦所以在這個部分本席是提凍結預算9000萬元那希望交通部公安署能夠研議調整這是地方旅遊環境升級計畫的績效指標然後提出一個具體的一個說明然後提出書面報告後時的動之謝謝好徐富奎委員接下來林國成委員"},{"start":19368.449,"end":19387.38,"text":"謝謝主席我提出第16到21案還有第56案我想我們對於觀光署業務的推動我們都寄予厚望尤其是希望國外更多的遊客到我們台灣來觀光消費國內的國旅市場也能夠突飛猛進"},{"start":19388.38,"end":19410.803,"text":"但是我們看到這個努力的過程裡面我們也有幾點的憂慮所以希望我們觀光署能夠來做一個改善那第一個就是第16案的部分針對我們這個旅宿跟民宿這個住宿的營收去年有呈現一個還是呈現一個衰退的狀況那尤其一後之後我們希望能夠這個所有的旅宿業能夠恢復營運"},{"start":19411.804,"end":19429.278,"text":"所以針對這部分我想因為許多的國人對於旅宿業的一個房價跟所謂的一個服務的部分還是有一些負面的一些評價那所以針對我們交通部訂定一個新級旅館的一個品件的要點我們希望能夠做一個能夠再做一個檢視"},{"start":19430.479,"end":19446.824,"text":"那實現的部分我想我們進入這個超高齡的一個社會之後我想針對我們有一些退休的一些長者的一些旅遊觀光的一個服務部分我們希望公共署能夠提出一些因應對策那畢竟這個是一個很重要的一個市場"},{"start":19447.964,"end":19474.494,"text":"那另外18案的部分剛剛陳儒核心總委員講的我們台灣最近這個露營的活動興起那全台目前有1600多家的露營場但是目前我們知道交通部在111年公布一個露營區的一個管理要點那輔導業者能夠合法的營運但是截至目前只有500多家能夠申請到合法化"},{"start":19475.114,"end":19501.416,"text":"還有大概1000多家沒有提出申請或是不能合法營運我想這個也對於我們一個未來的一個露營的一個油漆的一個品質非常的重要那我們也希望能夠關火水能夠加強來做輔導那另外19案部分對於這個地方旅遊環境的一個提升計畫那我們也是希望這個對於這個風景區的一個參考的一個基礎的部分那個KPI應該重新來檢視過"},{"start":19503.84,"end":19526.888,"text":"二十安的部分我想這個有介於這個國外旅客的部分雖然這個我們亞太地區的入境的收入已經達到疫情前的78%但是我跟相較於日韓來比我們還是回復的速度比較緩慢那所以觀光署也應該要積極開發其他國家的一個旅客的一個來源那提升我們一個旅遊一個績效"},{"start":19528.288,"end":19550.058,"text":"那21案的部分那一樣也是針對我們一個台灣觀光一個政策白筆書的一個落實那希望未來我們希望打造台灣成為一個亞洲旅遊最重要的一個目的地那其實目前我想包含我們的衛視洛杉磯管理學院提出的部分我們的這個觀光收入佔GDP的一個排名我們從2022年的第56名"},{"start":19552.459,"end":19565.115,"text":"持續下滑到這個2024年第65名那我想這個在委員會的時候也有許多的委員提出一個希望我們觀光署能夠盡盡的一個作為所以以上幾個案子我提出針對觀光業務經過溝通凍結500萬提出書面報告"},{"start":19569.7,"end":19589.919,"text":"那第56案的部分我想國內的旅遊業缺工的一個現象連帶影響到一個國旅的一個住宿跟服務的一個品質那所以這部分我想觀光署也應該要積極跟我們相關部會來溝通協調然後針對怎麼樣的一個旅遊的一個作為要提出一個因應措施尤其是我們整個這個"},{"start":19591.48,"end":19610.532,"text":"很多的舊景點的吸引力不足怎麼樣開發新的景點我們結合我們的風景區管理處做出一些新的一個生態旅遊的一個部分我希望能夠提出一個經營作為所以這個部分我也提案要凍結這個補助交通作業基金的一個10%一樣要提出書面報告之後使得動之 謝謝"},{"start":19612.373,"end":19638.666,"text":"好謝謝學委員接下來林國成委員好謝謝因為本期提了23萬47案53案55案所以除了23案要刪1000萬以外其他的部分47 53 55都是希望凍結10%那至於刪多少那這裡建議有主席來做裁定我希望最少要刪500萬以上報告"},{"start":19642.523,"end":19669.37,"text":"好 李貫哲委員好 其實我們對交通部各部門都要求經費要謹慎的編列而且要類型尊潔但是我們針對氣象署跟觀光署這是去年我提案升格的兩個重要的部門"},{"start":19670.47,"end":19684.818,"text":"因為第一個氣象署是關係到人民生命財產安全的保障面對極端氣候的衝擊觀光署在過去我就一直要求政府尤其是交通部必須編列更充足的經費在疫情期間"},{"start":19686.482,"end":19715.283,"text":"在相關的國內外旅遊的這樣的一個資源跟經費必須要充足的這樣的一個彈藥資源的補助但是可惜還是稍嫌不足我們看到韓國的觀光公社韓國的觀光的這些計畫的推動以及日本現在二線三線城市不只是一線城市的觀光二線三線也如火如荼的展開他們的觀光課的這樣的一個復甦也明顯可見"},{"start":19716.044,"end":19739.976,"text":"那我們的力道就是差那麼一點我們的經費一直是不足我一直要求交通部的部長還有署長必須再爭取更多的資源經費來補足那我們在國際競爭之間我們的經費資源是明顯的不足我希望各位在刪減預算的時候必須考慮到國家的這個"},{"start":19741.357,"end":19755.147,"text":"觀光旅遊的發展以及觀光署對各地方縣市政府補助的重要性那我們來看八字21案八字21案其實就很重要了八字21案是觀光的業務"},{"start":19756.388,"end":19775.577,"text":"它主要的編列是要補助地方政府環境旅遊建設計畫就要補助9億6千萬左右還有地方創生也是補助地方政府是3950萬這個補助地方政府的經費就高達10億元以上"},{"start":19778.017,"end":19797.356,"text":"而且這些相關的這些住外的僱員薪資辦公室租金基本運作這個經費是8400萬然後我們這些經費要補助地方的我們要去刪嗎各縣市政府呢另外我們對於22至23"},{"start":19801.298,"end":19822.208,"text":"這個部分我想他是屬於觀光國際事務觀光國際事務其實他的經費編列也都很詳實因為他的觀光國際事務這項經費主要是住外人員住外人力的雇員他的薪資及辦公室的租金及他的運作"},{"start":19824.479,"end":19852.722,"text":"這些經費其實我們看他們在113年度的預算是全數執行年度增加主要當然是因為缺額你要補食匯率的成長國外的僱員因為薪資通蓬佩爾外交部調升駐外僱員薪資的標準等等當然也新增加了孟馬雅加達辦事處等經費這個大家都要去確實的考量"},{"start":19853.447,"end":19877.463,"text":"另外第34到36案是觀光國際事務是大陸地區的旅會那這個都有相似的人員要去多少人或者是這個機票是多少錢都有相似的編列大家也都可以確實的來審視了另外有關於第"},{"start":19880.285,"end":19898.363,"text":"42到46這個部分也有相關的這個凍結這個等一下觀光署也要來做明確的說明我以上先簡單的這樣報告以上好那在陳卓人委員發言之前我先把我講一講不然你結論一講我就沒辦法講"},{"start":19900.974,"end":19918.439,"text":"還有提四個案子但是第45跟51就參照我們的說明那在口頭補充說明的部分針對於第24案24案的部分這邊提出3.1千萬 凍結10%然後做專案報告最主要的原因是因為其實每一年都在"},{"start":19919.139,"end":19938.305,"text":"疫後的這個國際旅客就是外來旅客的一個復甦的一個情況但是看起來在今年並不如預期所以我們覺得感覺沒有非常非常具體的方法那在這種情況之下那我們也看到就在預算的部分是增加了差不多2000萬"},{"start":19940.106,"end":19955.462,"text":"比113年那我們就會說但是我是覺得還是要拿出具體的數字出來再增加所以我們希望只增加1000萬然後所以希望幫你調整3減1000萬這是我的用意那第36案最主要是"},{"start":19957.065,"end":19983.894,"text":"你們的大陸地區的旅費的部分那唯一的不解的原因就是你們這邊特別說是針對於住戶我們因為觀光署有在這個大陸地區辦事處人員相關的一些費用那主要是在我們北京辦事處兩人上海三人福州一人這些人要來往相關的一些"},{"start":19985.856,"end":19995.073,"text":"經費是有必要的那如果說是這些人來來去去經費有必要勢必要顯現在113年剛結束的年度結果"},{"start":19996.711,"end":20013.978,"text":"讓我沒辦法理解的是13年給你72萬其實經費比較少你們現在編了108萬嘛你們說經費不夠希望能夠給他們來回的更多的一些彈性我可以理解喔如果你們這樣說法落實我是可以支持的可是今年給你72萬你針對這6個人只用了到11月底9.7%"},{"start":20019.437,"end":20042.79,"text":"我意思說這個預算到底是不是如你所說的是這些六位的很辛苦的我們駐路人員的來來去去如果是他絕對不會到今年到11月你只用10%而已只用七八萬所以就表示這些人其實主要錢根本不是這些錢啊那你現在講的跟做的不一樣嘛"},{"start":20043.77,"end":20059.936,"text":"我不知道你聽得懂我意思嗎那如果說不是他們用的是你們想到兩邊要去溝通或怎麼樣那看起來現在溝通的管道比較少所以我們這邊有提出來是只是調整幫你減20萬凍結10%那我針對這兩岸說明陳學生委員公安署這一次審明年度預算是非常緊張的我想"},{"start":20073.627,"end":20102.547,"text":"各組織都充分的跟我們委員去討論但還沒有討論得非常清楚其實我們三檢預算是個手段不是目的我們是希望我們中華民國的觀光能夠發展得更好這很重要我聽了前幾天這兩天賴清德總統有提到說你們應該要去做一些焦慮的談判等等你們都可以嘗試是不是"},{"start":20103.548,"end":20132.219,"text":"雖然大陸現在以前馬英九總統時代是一國兩制嘛其實不是一國兩制啊是...是什麼?他有名稱嗎?兩岸共識啦是兩岸共識嗎?九二共識啦對啦,長大不行啊九二共識九二共識是一個很模糊的空間"},{"start":20133.317,"end":20148.305,"text":"所以在這個模糊的空間裡面兩邊有交流那現在大陸在講一個中國台灣又講說台灣是台灣 中國是中國那這裡面就觸礁了嘛所以談不下去了那老共講說"},{"start":20151.124,"end":20168.094,"text":"九二共識我們是一家人那現在是兩家人兩家人我幹嘛要跟你談所以你們要尋這個方向去看看怎麼解套還有出團的部分我記得王國才當部長的時候把團就放了團禁解開了"},{"start":20170.017,"end":20182.127,"text":"後來當然很冒險又收回來了我們就放嘛有什麼關係大陸他是大國他覺得沒有面子是不是不要為了面子在那邊扯"},{"start":20183.652,"end":20201.938,"text":"那這個預算裡面呢當然署長還有署長底下的這些署長也跟我拜託啦跟我們國民黨黨內的同仁去跟他們說明我也幫你們也出了力了我們是對什麼對你宣傳的部分有意見文宣的部分"},{"start":20203.775,"end":20214.383,"text":"還有就是你去越南啦、泰國啦、香港啦你招人來我們花錢去請人家到我們這裡來觀光那你不如把這個錢放在國內"},{"start":20216.186,"end":20234.838,"text":"促銷去金馬鵬、花蓮、台東啊尤其是個災區嘛對不對去高雄啊或是高雄到台北來啊你在這上面促銷你得把錢去買這個觀光嘛那主要的問題在這裡面我們也希望我們觀光能夠做得很好啊當然這裡面11億多裡面齁"},{"start":20237.915,"end":20245.222,"text":"比如說有我們駐外單位比如說大陸啦有北京、上海、福州吧我們還有三個辦事處在外面"},{"start":20248.488,"end":20272.789,"text":"這些人的薪水,還有在日本、越南這些雇員的薪水也都在這個裡面你如果把這個錢刪的話,將來這些雇員勢必就裁員了嘛北京、上海這些人要裁回來了而且還有,裡面有一些費用在裡面另外還有大概有9億多,你看11億多裡面"},{"start":20273.83,"end":20293.567,"text":"有9億多是補助各縣市來發展觀光的所以你們這個要講清楚啊因為你11億其中包含了9億多是各縣市發展觀光的那有一些委員不了解啊你都混在裡面嘛你混在裡面你應該把它區隔把它分開讓他們看得更清楚"},{"start":20294.406,"end":20321.462,"text":"所以我這個事情跟沛翔委員報告以後沛翔委員他就了解了解以後今天你看他就說砍掉兩千萬不然三點七億多對不對他了解以後也所以你們跟委員之間的互動剛才國城委員在這邊講了很久你們要尊重各個委員我們委員大家都一樣大的沒有年齡大小他們說我來這邊壓力很大其實每個委員都有他的職權"},{"start":20322.763,"end":20344.826,"text":"我哪能去干涉他們呢對不對只是說我在這邊比較資深一點像困擾委員在這邊比較資深一點我們去跟他講道理講的可能比較會通一點建築體設備建築體設備你公安署不能把建築體設備放在各縣市的風景管理處裡面去喔署長"},{"start":20346.345,"end":20369.599,"text":"你把這個錢你各縣市風景管理處你去蓋建築啊蓋設備啊從原來他們就有機會去弄的話那你這個風景管理處在縣市裡面有什麼作用你只是養了一批人員在那邊說是風景管理處然後在忙著蓋房子你對各縣市政府對各縣市的觀光景點毫無幫助嘛"},{"start":20370.479,"end":20388.527,"text":"所以署長我提醒你當然我不會去指名哪個縣市政府啦你特別注意一下好不好你比如說他只有3億你一個建築設備擺了1億多在裡面他的人事費去了1億多那沒錢了嘛你這個署長在那邊幹什麼是不是"},{"start":20389.56,"end":20409.481,"text":"所以我想對這個預算我也呼籲我們國民黨黨內的同仁我們盡量就在心仁厚啦我們想放下小走嘛該算的也要算 剛才沛翔委員說三兩千萬等等我覺得這個都很講道理的啦好不好好 以上好 觀光署說明"},{"start":20411.637,"end":20422.205,"text":"非常謝謝各位委員的指教那也特別利用這個機會跟大家報告一下今年的預算了114年度預算是公安署成立以來的第一個預算"},{"start":20424.574,"end":20449.599,"text":"我們113年度執行的預算是112年度編列的預算112年度編列的預算的時候那時候是國防局所以今年是一個新的開始所以請各位能夠來幫忙為什麼我們很緊張其實是我們真的很想做一點事情我們的預算是各國裡面最少"},{"start":20451.365,"end":20456.939,"text":"幾乎算是這些觀光強國裡面我們很希望各位能夠支持我們"},{"start":20458.069,"end":20485.204,"text":"那麼我簡單說一句話就是說有幾個大的項目譬如說在這個科目裡面是11億確實在9億多是補助地方政府我們也希望地方政府的亮點能夠更好所以我們也希望能夠透過預算來支持地方政府那地方政府也有做KPI那我想說剛剛魯朝偉特別提到我利用簡短的時間有幾項我就併在一起簡單說明一下"},{"start":20487.748,"end":20509.226,"text":"我們的穿裝費 譬如說我們福州 我們大陸是這樣子大陸是兩個辦事處 就是北京跟上海有一個管理站在福州福州的同仁他借零退休所以他12月就要回台灣那我們就要派一個人到福州去那這個穿裝費我們12月的話就預算執行的話就將近72%"},{"start":20511.267,"end":20538.493,"text":"所以剛剛召委的那個數字跟我們12月就有出入所以有很多的費用他是放在第二季我想說第四季所以我想說很簡單的跟大家報告一下那麼黃委員特別關心有幾個就是旅行社跟航空業的部分這個我們確實也跟民航局跟航空公司有不斷的在溝通還有非法旅宿大家很關心我們也希望"},{"start":20539.594,"end":20555.014,"text":"能夠講優太烈我們對合法的部分能夠來全力來支持何委員關心的有三件事我也利用這個機會跟大家報告一下我們原來是好玩卡那我們覺得海玩卡應該是改成區域卡不要是城市卡"},{"start":20555.615,"end":20577.186,"text":"所以我們就在轉型的過程中我們也發現在地方上他有些競合的關係所以高雄市他就覺得做得很好他就希望能夠把高雄市的好玩卡能夠擴充區域卡能夠持續所以他仍然叫做南部的好玩卡那中部的好玩卡的話就是台中他不願意做裝那就由南投來做裝"},{"start":20578.499,"end":20602.144,"text":"那我們希望他的英文名字叫做Taiwan Pass所以我們這次Taiwan Pass就把它轉型把英文的名字變成一個重要的聯票那我們在高鐵跟台鐵有分開來那台鐵的票已經賣得很好也是有賣了將近一萬八千張那麼高鐵票的是將近八千張那也就是這個套票的部分呢有希望能夠勾選那麼讓大家能夠促進國旅"},{"start":20604.285,"end":20625.464,"text":"委員很關心就是透過AI智慧化之後我們也希望把台灣PASS跟TPASS做結合所以我們也希望跟公路局2.0版的TPASS能夠它涉及到一些清分何委員跟我們徐委員都有特別提到露營"},{"start":20626.405,"end":20641.1,"text":"那麼露營這個部分我們也希望能夠改善老問題那麼杜絕新問題那這個城鎮市也特別召開一次會議那主要是在水源保護區還有農林墓地的部分我們也解套了那保險的部分我們會持續來做"},{"start":20642.501,"end":20665.468,"text":"還有林委員是建議的部分我們真的是補助地方政府所以我們還是希望林委員您會不要刪除這個刪的預算對我們來講就是很多在業務推動上確實有點為難那陳昭偉希望我們有更好的KPI我們確實也重新檢討尤其是地方的那個景區景點他有做微調譬如說範圍變大"},{"start":20667.068,"end":20683.274,"text":"或是他覺得有新的景點我們也同意他們做微調所以這個部分我們也會滾動式檢討那徐委員也特別提醒到新籍旅館的部分我們覺得新籍旅館浩克的民宿我還是繼續推所以我們這件事情我們會加大力道來做處理"},{"start":20684.674,"end":20700.436,"text":"那麼地方的景區跟這個國際旅客的開源也非常謝謝大家的指教那我們就按照各位委員的意見我們逐步來擴大尤其我們舊景點的不足確實需要能夠重新整頓"},{"start":20701.397,"end":20720.746,"text":"那我們也配合像今年的話在台南我們就配合台南做一些改變也包括了它的運河那我們今年已經算今年了今年在桃園所以我們就希望桃園的這些景點海岸線能夠做一些改變所以我們也有在精神型的計畫裡面來支持他們"},{"start":20721.886,"end":20747.722,"text":"那再次非常謝謝昆哲委員的支持確實有一次我跟算去年啦我跟這個泰國的這個局長來談光總局局長在談的時候他們的預算都是幾乎換我們的七倍了所以我們在預算上來講是非常尊潔然後也希望各位委員能夠併案然後是不是可以讓我們來補充說明用凍結的方式也拜託召委謝謝"},{"start":20750.768,"end":20769.627,"text":"好那這樣這個這個案子因為案量大所以討論蠻久的齁那剛剛那個我想刪除的委員剛剛有凝聚一下意見啦齁說呃不要刪那麼多刪除大概兩千萬左右了齁那這可以接受嗎那個可以差不多嗎齁"},{"start":20772.023,"end":20787.57,"text":"那這樣好不好因為觀光署第一年的預算啦那我想各縣市的一個補助我們都有啦那這個部分但是我要拜託啦我們的委員其實一路支持你是你們觀光署的一個工作的夥伴"},{"start":20788.17,"end":20805.344,"text":"但你在地方很多觀光活動好像跟委員都沒有連結也不必通知你知道嗎我們一回到地方哇都是議員做的委員跟委員沒有關係我是覺得第一個跟地方的觀光的補助你要讓在地委員真的要知道大家共榮你做得好"},{"start":20806.164,"end":20824.332,"text":"也是我們的一個榮耀好像都跟我們沒有關係你補助我覺得應該跟各區的在地的委員一定要通知那委員有一些比較特色的活動觀光的這個部分他協助你們推動的時候我也希望你們要優先的幫忙好不好那我們就3.1千萬"},{"start":20827.922,"end":20849.424,"text":"基隆的活動要稍微注意一下基隆活動我們來調整然後我們所有的處長都在還有組長都在就三點整體三點一千萬然後科目自行調整周偉周偉 沛翔委員有意見沛翔委員你說一下"},{"start":20851.107,"end":20875.518,"text":"其實剛剛學霸跟我溝通他從昨天開始跟我溝通這個是這個案子不然今天我會堅持716我會堅持716因為老實說當我們國內的旅遊大家都在這邊叫苦連天的時候然後我們還花錢去補助國外東南亞的人進來這邊那我覺得他們東南亞我也不想去講那麼多細節說他們到底花多少錢歐美花多少錢日本花多少錢我們都不要去談那些"},{"start":20876.198,"end":20905.778,"text":"光這一點後來學霸一直跟我講這個11億2000萬裡面有他說9億6是地方政府地方政府不是地方政府的那中間他們真的能動的只有8000好那我說我先算到2000到1000我是覺得真的不好意思我有點蘇長2000萬也沒問題因為因為我們幾個也聊了很久了因為趙偉他是主席嘛我們談面前聊了很久了"},{"start":20906.978,"end":20928.689,"text":"因為沛翔委員、建豪委員我們幾個還有弄花委員因為這裡本來要刪了很多嘛是說兩千萬 因為 召委對不起啦剛才你宣布了 但是我們因為沛翔委員有意見你沒有聽到可不可以處理一下"},{"start":20934.371,"end":20946.986,"text":"給我一分鐘其實如果你本來看我刪除的預算其實不止716加起來可能到9億左右是整個科目的9億左右因為我覺得很多東西我無法了解就是這樣子我無法了解為什麼會去這樣去編"},{"start":20947.927,"end":20953.811,"text":"那其他你們後來你們辦公室有跟我們辦公室解釋過很多所以很多是凍結10%很多凍結5%很多變組決議都OK就那716的時候後來學霸跟我解釋很久好決定那從8000萬裡面真的你們真的業務會用8000萬裡面減2000"},{"start":20967.724,"end":20982.035,"text":"我們現在這樣好不好 精準刪除啦大家都挺國內的補助嘛那我們就刪除的項目是這個22案到32案所謂的觀光國際事務費用的8792萬三減這個項目向下三減兩千萬報告 報告趙委員這樣我們沒辦法執行沒辦法執行"},{"start":20992.324,"end":21005.623,"text":"不是因為你正好比去年增加兩千萬就觀光業務的部分就讓他們自行調整啦國際觀光都已經很不夠了你就自行調整啦"},{"start":21008.052,"end":21020.818,"text":"好 希望能夠科目自行調整是不是好 那我來就是按照我們的委員的一個建議第8到61案第二幕觀光業務相關的費用11億2209萬餘元"},{"start":21026.781,"end":21029.545,"text":"我們處理方式如下 3減2000萬 凍結10% 提供書面說明 使得凍結科目自行調整可以嗎 好"},{"start":21041.567,"end":21070.584,"text":"好那另外是針對於這第二幕嘛第二幕部分我們測案第二期案測案改組決議有下列個案第40案42案49案52案54案57案60案等案改組決議好各位委員朋友不同意見好那我們繼續來處理62到90案第三幕"},{"start":21072.103,"end":21089.843,"text":"國家風景區開發與管理業務總金額336,840萬有沒有提案委員要補充說明的好 陳志偉 趙偉 徐副國務委員好 謝謝主席我的比較簡單第76案我就改主決議 謝謝"},{"start":21094.524,"end":21112.255,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝主席我提出第六四案那我想剛剛大家很熱烈討論觀光署的業務那我個人因為我們屏東縣這邊有大鵬灣管理處跟茂林管理處那我自己的感覺是說過去我們當然國家風景區的責任是推廣觀光"},{"start":21113.155,"end":21132.115,"text":"但是事實上在他們的這個轄區裡面我們現在面臨的也有很多的生態保育跟一個觀光推展要變重的一些項目那我覺得我們觀光署的同仁應該也要體認這樣的一個時代不一樣的變遷尤其是像小琉球也好或是墾丁也好"},{"start":21132.675,"end":21156.704,"text":"現在水的時代變現小琉球非常的夯但是我們看到過去的垃圾跟污水的處理上面我們也希望我們盆管處這邊應該要積極來跟所謂相關部會來協調應該要超前部署去處理這些的問題那茂林的部分我們也是希望未來針對我們原民的文化還有產業輔導部分能夠給予更多的一些資源的挹注那所以我想我們提出凍結國家風雲去開發"},{"start":21158.985,"end":21171.141,"text":"以及管理費的預算1%也是希望我們的所有的觀光署的同仁我們大家能夠更精進作為然後尤其是整個對觀光跟生態的推廣部分給予更多的一個力道謝謝"},{"start":21173.7,"end":21196.033,"text":"好那我個人也有提案啦我們提案的話第74案最主要我們桃園這邊北橫國家風景區其實已經談了非常非常久了你們的回應大概一直沒有進度吧另外還有新北市他有一個區塊他也想成立國家風景區但我覺得這個案子還是病案要討論因為跨"},{"start":21198.594,"end":21225.659,"text":"縣市兩個直轄市你們總是要開個會看看大家的意願然後有沒有共同的一個方向然後你們來協助處理我們希望有一些傳遞我們委員關心的聲音好不好好陳雪森委員現在時間是2點24分剛才我們底下也做過協商啦大概就不發言了配項委員刪減的跟林國成委員刪減的部分我們就不刪了好不好好"},{"start":21225.953,"end":21238.682,"text":"因為前面已經散了嘛,前面剛才已經廣泛討論,而且署長也做充分的說明,好不好,為了節省時間,好不好,稍微裡面做,欸,民進黨委員沒意見,明天請你做財事,好不好,OK"},{"start":21242.737,"end":21267.226,"text":"好 那沛昌委員這邊沒有 OK了那我們這邊就也不用說了就是你書面說明好了好不好我們這邊第三幕因為國家風景區我們希望我們都一直說要弄得更好吸引不管是國內國外的旅客希望你更好所以我們在這裡面就沒有沒有沒有刪除了用凍結的方式"},{"start":21268.146,"end":21295.988,"text":"好第六涉到90案第三目國家風景區開發與管理我們處理方式是凍結10%請對委員的意見來書面說明好接下來一樣第三目來宣告一下以下個案改組決議"},{"start":21297.799,"end":21318.914,"text":"第六三案、六十六案、六七案、六八、六九、七十、七一、七二、八一、八二、八三、八四、八五、八六、八八、第九十案等案改組決議還有七十六案七十六案沒念到也是改組決議"},{"start":21322.691,"end":21330.124,"text":"好沒有問題我們就接下來處理到主決議了嗎好接下來處理決議案好91到106案請各位委員翻開91案"},{"start":21352.708,"end":21370.425,"text":"好91案觀光署91案我們遵照辦理好91案照案通過92案遵照辦理92案照案通過93案遵照辦理93案照案通過94案文字修正那提書面報告"},{"start":21371.807,"end":21387.428,"text":"委員已經同意了謝謝崑澤委員這邊委員有同意那我們就是修正文字通過第95案專照辦理95案交案通過96案感謝若華委員我們改成書面報告謝謝"},{"start":21389.43,"end":21417.96,"text":"好 修正文字後通過第九七案 遵照辦理九七案 照案通過九十八案 遵照辦理九十八案 照案通過九九案 遵照辦理九九 九九案 照案通過一百案 遵照辦理一百案 照案通過一百零一案 遵照辦理一百零一 照案通過一百零二也謝謝游委員 我們他也同意改成書面報告專案改成書面是"},{"start":21424.488,"end":21431.514,"text":"好102案修正文字或通過103案遵照辦理103案召喚通過104遵照辦理104案召喚通過105案謝謝召委那我們就改書面好"},{"start":21444.335,"end":21459.381,"text":"文字修正後通過106遵照辦理106案照案通過好我們觀光署及所屬單位預算處理完畢 接下來處理觀光發展基金"},{"start":21470.484,"end":21471.145,"text":"休息三分鐘喔"},{"start":21500.475,"end":21500.975,"text":"OK,好"},{"start":21530.776,"end":21557.995,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":21560.874,"end":21560.914,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":21583.22,"end":21599.172,"text":"對啊,我這邊超多都是他們的那個...沒問題,那個...速發部有發言就好因為剛才跟雪爸討論一下,他說...他說沒有差不多一百塊的獎勵"},{"start":21606.657,"end":21607.518,"text":"三年有超過一百萬"},{"start":21625.179,"end":21627.321,"text":"我們下次就再提高經濟了下次以後啦"},{"start":21656.817,"end":21657.598,"text":"今天沒有看到人"},{"start":21691.014,"end":21700.016,"text":"好 大家請就座剛剛那個2000萬自行調整 有宣告了"},{"start":21701.605,"end":21723.663,"text":"接下來我們來處理交通部觀光發展基金114年度附屬單位預算請各位參照建議併案及預算表我們開始處理第一案第一案林國成委員已經改組決議"},{"start":21729.795,"end":21753.362,"text":"沒問題好接下來處理第二至五案何委員批發試案有跟何委員協調嗎都已經跟何委員報告因為都是凍結案凍結案那就請你提供詳細的說明第二到五案業務成本與費用"},{"start":21757.355,"end":21786.277,"text":"我們就是凍結10%提供書面報告時的凍資沒問題吧是不過剛剛第一案還在宣告一下第一案勞務收入改組決議好沒問題接下來處理6到15案勞務成本勞務成本的部分有沒有委員要補充說明徐副委員嗎"},{"start":21788.106,"end":21815.183,"text":"李昆哲委員沒有好大家不要說我就直接處理好我們來看一看整個徐副國務委員要補充說明嗎改動節1000萬改動節1000萬了好好好李昆哲好謝謝有關我們貿易物成本"},{"start":21817.463,"end":21839.74,"text":"這個勞務成本應該他主要是辦理各風景區的清潔維護保全場域的巡查人力遊覽解說連續假日交通維運還有設備折舊補助地方政府環境旅遊建設升級還是不是包含這些"},{"start":21842.042,"end":21848.789,"text":"所以我們景區的部分還包括了地方的有4.97億我看你們112年度的執行數是31.33億"},{"start":21857.759,"end":21887.2,"text":"那114年度有主要有增加是因為你們要補助地方政府嘛環境旅遊建設升級計畫要增加3.24億嘛這個補助地方政府很重要以上好 謝謝 謝謝委員那剛剛那個國城委員那邊就好像免稅嘛我就趕動捷我代表國城委員趕動捷500萬好不好好我代表他我代表他好不好OK可以啦 莊委你人才是吧"},{"start":21889.246,"end":21911.52,"text":"我們來處理一下6到15萬勞務成本的部分我們日採凍結10%提供書面報告時的通知有沒有問題哪裡 前面有通案嗎就勞務成本啊"},{"start":21913.304,"end":21921.748,"text":"5萬是最大案就是2到5萬其實是整個勞務成本跟業務費用加總好那這邊再凍結5%了謝謝凍結5%填充書面報告使得動之好接下來處理16到48案有沒有提案委員要補充說明徐副委員"},{"start":21943.415,"end":21954.122,"text":"謝謝主席我提16到第18案16案就新集旅館部分就請觀光組這邊再研議辦理17案改組決議18案的部分我想針對國內職業的導遊跟領隊的人數有下降的一個趨勢我們也擔心後續旅遊產業人才的供需狀況"},{"start":21968.05,"end":21988.948,"text":"避免一個產業缺工的情形那所以我們經過溝通提案凍結業務費用一千萬元那請觀光署能夠針對這樣一個旅行產業一個人才培育一個幽營提升的部分要提出一個相關的書面報告 使得動之 謝謝好 謝謝許委員接下來有提案委員要補充說明嗎"},{"start":21994.161,"end":22018.22,"text":"好那我個人提案有幾個案子第22案主要是去這個大陸地區的旅費那你們這邊也放了嘛齁那加上之前的是火力這麼強啊兩邊加起來剛剛其實也沒什麼沒什麼山欸有沒有需要這麼多啦因為現在沒有什麼聯絡啊有聯絡"},{"start":22021.707,"end":22030.058,"text":"我知道 我知道剛剛已經添了一條了他們有單位在大陸 不夠 不夠不夠啊我知道我知道 這個不要去碰他啦這個我主張 我建議不要去碰他"},{"start":22030.99,"end":22054.639,"text":"好那就我提這個案子最主要是很需要可是奇怪啊執行率112年2.5%執行率所以你不要辜負了委員的期待因為你錢根本沒用非常需要但是113年到目前為止執行4.1%就簡單來講就是我錢給你了委員在那邊講錢給你了"},{"start":22056.54,"end":22075.618,"text":"兩百萬幾百萬就用不到十萬然後明年繼續編這個部分我覺得你們要讓支持你們的委員不要失望你們因為剛剛審這個預算跟預算你們其實執行率都沒有很高啦你們我覺得要做一個說明"},{"start":22077.318,"end":22098.576,"text":"那我後面還有兩岸那請參閱我的書面說明好那還有沒有補充意見那我們就來我們觀光署要不要補充說明針對有要刪除的部分優先要不要來講一下這個要拜託委員這個部分我們大概因為都是核實在執行"},{"start":22099.116,"end":22110.986,"text":"那我們現在也是希望能夠促進一些交流所以這些費用還是麻煩能夠如期來編列那我們是不是允許我們用凍結的方式來提書面書面報告黃金華委員"},{"start":22119.557,"end":22140.008,"text":"好,谢谢赵伟我提38案那其实38案跟之前那个交通部你们对不起,观光署本部预算是类似一样的事情就想推展为了要促进这个来台旅客人次那不管是在你们的本署预算里面在这个基金里面我想问一下因为我也是提冻结而已我也没有三一预算但是要我要知道说"},{"start":22141.451,"end":22167.876,"text":"本來是預計一千兩百萬人那你們現在下修那我想問一下那2025年開始的那你們這些錢給你們那你們的目標數是多少因為這樣才辦法我們明年省一算所以你剛剛講一年是現在第一年嘛那好過去都不算了現在第一年送預算進來那你今年做完之後我們這些不管是本屬預算還是這個基金預算出去之後那你預計你這個推展費也花這麼多錢去推展去各地去等於去擺攤去去攬客嘛"},{"start":22168.556,"end":22188.125,"text":"跟補助也好或怎麼樣也好那你希望你2025年的目標是多少我們的規劃是1000萬那跟委員報告下他有分兩個部分一個是自由行一個是團客旅遊那因為現在的整個疫情之後的自由行非常的興盛所以我們就是2025年這一年"},{"start":22189.285,"end":22208.005,"text":"我們優先在歐洲的阿姆斯特丹跟美國的西雅圖我們優先設台灣觀光旅客的服務分處也就是我們所謂的TTIC就是Taiwan Tourism Information Center"},{"start":22208.746,"end":22221.002,"text":"那麼我們也希望能夠把握這個澳洲所以我們澳洲雪梨在明年的上半年也會來設這個台灣觀光的遊客中心還有我們會預估在9月份來設這個孟買的辦事處"},{"start":22224.787,"end":22244.778,"text":"就是印度的辦事處那這個部分呢就是我們要達標啊還是需要能夠擴大這個所謂的飲客圈所以我們的目標是除了既定的顧本之外我們希望能夠擴大北美市場跟所謂的這個所謂的4到8小時的這個飛行的航行的這個範圍"},{"start":22246.299,"end":22270.97,"text":"所以相關的這個措施還是會透過這個旅展透過所謂的這個相關的優惠措施還是要有譬如說我們鼓勵包機能夠到我們一些其他的行下來還有我們會有海外的這些所謂的宣傳推廣會還有所謂的這個社群網站的這個行銷以上簡單的跟委員報告"},{"start":22274.144,"end":22300.105,"text":"好 那相關的說明這個包括委員跟我們署裡面都有說明但我其實對於你們那個新籍旅館的評鑑歷年來你們定的目標都是90到100間但是現在評鑑 像今年大概只有39間就是也沒有達標 那要不要用這麼多錢我是覺得很奇怪第二個 你這麼多的研究計畫 第32案"},{"start":22302.006,"end":22329.186,"text":"你這麼多的一個研究計畫其實我們最知道你的計畫然後有沒有落實在觀光旅遊改善的一個情況我們覺得關聯性我個人覺得關聯性很低啦不斷去分析不斷的研究觀光政策弄完之後就每年一千多萬我是覺得是有固定的單位在等著接這個案子然後研究一下統計一下就丟出來我的感覺是這樣所以我想說這個的部分啦還是針對於我看"},{"start":22333.539,"end":22356.622,"text":"針對這個委託計劃好這個部分我們來做一個刪減好了好不好第32案跟委員報告一下我們要再精準投放我們還是需要有一些調查的分析啦那這個部分呢說實在的我們的調查分析的這個還希望能夠委員支持可能我們平常讓委員這個感受不到"},{"start":22357.182,"end":22384.779,"text":"我們除了這個我可以簡單的說明我們如果在國外的分析裡面如果不夠到位我們沒辦法做精準投放而且我們說實在在疫情之後我們更希望能夠掌握更多的資訊就是旅遊客他在來到台灣或者是我們國內的旅遊能夠更掌握更多的資訊來做回饋那這個就是我們在做調研的一個觀光分析的一個非常重要的一個要件"},{"start":22385.579,"end":22414.55,"text":"所以這個部分還是麻煩委員支持好 李崑哲委員好 謝謝昭偉那這些相關的委託調查相關的研究計畫其實是很重要 尤其是觀光旅遊的推動那我們知道我們生病了 去看醫生醫生很重要 護理師很重要但是醫檢師所提供的數據是作為醫病的一個最重要的參考依據的"},{"start":22415.35,"end":22443.356,"text":"那我們相關有關於國際觀光相關的旅遊產業的推動就誠如周署長剛才所言我們不管是這種旅遊的狀況的調查分析或者是市場的趨勢研究或是產業人才的供需調查或者是數位觀光價值的未來發展各種資訊系統資安的研究等等"},{"start":22444.476,"end":22463.736,"text":"這些都是像醫檢師所提供的數據才知道你三雙肝油脂高不高知道你的血糖數高不高這個都是很重要的一個觀光旅遊這個數據的分析投注是很重要的一個參考依據我是建議不要刪啦"},{"start":22466.224,"end":22482.81,"text":"好的那我們現在針對於第16萬到第48案的部分那這個部分當然各委員到最後會需要針對於相關的議題提出書面報告那我們業務的費用44億0536萬餘元這個部分綜合所有委員的一個提案從幾百萬到2億他們折衷一下3減5000萬"},{"start":22493.561,"end":22504.93,"text":"3.5千萬 凍結18然後提供書面報告 使得動之各位有沒有其他意見委員沒意見齁 不行啦好好好 署長 署長有意見來你再講一下44億才5千萬而已"},{"start":22520.546,"end":22543.296,"text":"喔好 那這樣好了這樣好了啦 因為委員提這麼多啦 我們來處理一下3.2千萬啦 米科目自行調整調整啦 好不好 凍結10%每位委員問的問題 你還是要給各位專業回答好不好 他們同意啦 沒問題啦那我再宣告一下針對於16到48案業務費用"},{"start":22546.604,"end":22562.671,"text":"我們處理方式如下3減2000萬凍結10%然後科目自行調整提供書面報告使得動之好沒有問題我們繼續處理好剛剛這個階段改組決議的有兩案17案跟第22案改為組決議主席還有我的第46案也改為組決議好第46案也改為組決議"},{"start":22578.584,"end":22588.96,"text":"然後審完了嗎好我們接下來處理決議案我們審理組決議請各位委員翻到第49案"},{"start":22605.253,"end":22626.568,"text":"好第49案有沒有問題遵照辦理好 照案通過第50案遵照辦理50案照案通過51案謝謝蘇越召委就是我們文字修正提書面報告好51案修正文字後通過"},{"start":22630.687,"end":22657.334,"text":"額文字什麼修啊加書面書面就是專案改書面是不是專案改書面喔喔書面這樣提出書面報告加兩個字好第52案遵照辦理52案照案通過53案就召會協助改書面報告"},{"start":22660.093,"end":22664.315,"text":"交通作業基金我們處理完畢我們做後續宣告"},{"start":22741.254,"end":22764.827,"text":"好 謝謝各位委員今天協商完成做以下宣告一 今日協商結論免於宣讀授權議事人員整理作為決議列入記錄第二 委員要求提供之書面報告及相關資料請相關機關盡速以書面答覆第三 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那麼就請委員來表示意見"},{"start":2117.805,"end":2145.992,"text":"韓委員上一次針對有關於稅務行政事件審理法在詢答的時候我已經清楚點出來一個問題在稅務行政事件當中你們有別於目前的行政訴訟法另外設置了一個審理法在性質上面它應該是屬於程序法的性質而不具有組織法的意涵我想這件事情"},{"start":2147.452,"end":2168.942,"text":"應該要先予以確認第二個事情是說針對所謂的稅務行政事件在有別於目前行政訴訟法的範疇當中另外再訂一個審理法但我覺得你們那個我該怎麼講你們司法院在看這個條文的時候"},{"start":2171.229,"end":2189.816,"text":"你們有沒有真的認真的去比對過你們所提出來的稅務行政事件整理法跟現在的行政訴訟法什麼地方有特別規定的必要什麼地方沒有特別規定的必要我為什麼這樣講具體的來講行政訴訟法"},{"start":2195.542,"end":2220.961,"text":"稅務事件審理法稅務事件審理法裡面有規範的就適用稅務事件審理法的特別規定沒有特別規定就回到行政訴訟法的一般規定我想這個在法律適用原則上面應該是很清楚的但第二個層次的問題是說我說你們有沒有認真的去比對行政訴訟法"},{"start":2222.421,"end":2245.327,"text":"跟現在你們所提出來的稅務事件審理法有哪些地方行政訴訟法裡面的規範你們並沒有要去改變但是你們又在稅務行政事件審理法裡面重複去規範我想你們聽得懂我的問題啦"},{"start":2248.047,"end":2267.832,"text":"具體的來講在行政訴訟法裡面審判長要命當事人就事實上以及法律上面的問題為完全的辯論當事人所謂的聲明陳述有不明瞭或不完處應該要透過產民權的發動使他續名或補充"},{"start":2272.118,"end":2300.88,"text":"這個有關於審判長採民權的規定在現在行政訴訟法裡面沒有規範嗎沒有規範嗎那為什麼用問號因為如果有規範的話那你們在稅務行政事件審理法重複的再把它抄一次規範一一合了在因為你們整個法典整個規範的模式請容許我這樣講是在非常倉促的情況之下弄出來的條文"},{"start":2303.294,"end":2325.718,"text":"我是搞訴訟法的我一看就知道先就第一個問題先回答好嗎你們現在就有關於審判長產民權的範圍在行政訴訟法裡面的規範跟稅務事件審理法裡面的規範為什麼要重複規範理由在哪裡可不可以先說明"},{"start":2327.352,"end":2353.121,"text":"那個我先跟主席說明一下因為今天要處理的稅務行政事件審理法是一個專業程度非常高的法律所以我希望即使是在大體討論的時候我們所有的問題跟司法院官員的回答點對點的回答這樣子會比較清楚一點那否則的話把所有的事情全部都混在一起的話問題不太容易談得很清楚"},{"start":2353.902,"end":2372.551,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員的建議 那麼接下來請金剛代表就委員的部分一一做回應那麼委員如果對於回應的部分有意見如果沒有其他委員要發言 那就請委員繼續詢問 請好 那個報告主席 那這一部分我請那個陳廷長來回答好 那陳廷長回答完後 那個莊委員要詢問"},{"start":2375.782,"end":2390.002,"text":"謝謝委員的詢問我想先針對委員剛才講這部法訂得很充足但是事實上我們這部法其實是研修了兩年多的時間那兩年多的時間"},{"start":2391.664,"end":2414.362,"text":"大家這個彙整而成的結晶那關於委員剛才講的行政訴訟法跟稅審法重複的部分那我們不可諱言因為稅審法它是一個訴訟法是在稅務領域的訴訟法它是行政訴訟法的特別法我們把比較"},{"start":2415.743,"end":2426.888,"text":"有益於行政訴訟的特別的規定把它納入專法那剛才委員所講的有重複的部分就是像我們舉例來講就像我們本草案的11條跟我們行政訴訟法125條也就是關於這個產民權 審判長的產民權當生的協力義務跟"},{"start":2441.934,"end":2464.282,"text":"行政法院一直全調查的這一些的規定確實是一樣的但是我們為什麼會要在稅審法重複規定其實只是基於體力的完整因為11條之後我們搭配的是12條13條關於一些協力義務加強的規定所以我們為了要使體力的完整因此我們在11條這裡就把"},{"start":2468.903,"end":2491.441,"text":"行政訴訟法125條的規定把它納進來那另外委員有講說那我們這部法到底哪一部分跟目前行政訴訟法有不一樣的地方那舉例來講就像是19條19條到23條關於總額主義的配套措施對不起我先打斷一下啦"},{"start":2492.242,"end":2507.848,"text":"那個是另外一部分啦我們在談有關於審判程序的各個問題的時候請不要把A問題跟B問題混淆在一起我們今天如果要談紀要談紀判例的客觀範圍就談紀判例的客觀範圍"},{"start":2510.589,"end":2537.401,"text":"要談審理的基本原則就談審理的基本原則當我再問你在審理的基本原則上面的時候審判長在稅務行政事件審理法當中所附的產名義務的範圍跟內容我問的事情是為什麼在行政訴訟法裡面既然有規範而稅務行政事件審理法裡面既然沒有特別規定的情況之下有必要再把條文照抄一次這個是我剛剛第一個階段發文"},{"start":2539.222,"end":2565.76,"text":"發言最主要的重點因為你們這樣子的編排會讓大家覺得非常的困惑什麼叫做非常的困惑 請記得喔你現在法典上面整個規範的模式是稅務行政事件審理法在整個行政法院的審理程序上面針對有關於有別於行政訴訟的部分你要做特別的規定你要做特別的規定"},{"start":2567.438,"end":2591.565,"text":"如果沒有特別規定我們就回到行政訴訟法來加以審理那為什麼這個原則的建立很重要我才問你們說你們有沒有認真的去盤點盤點法跟行政訴訟法彼此之間的異同到底哪裡有必要做特別規定哪裡沒有必要做特別規定當你把行政訴訟法裡面"},{"start":2593.561,"end":2612.206,"text":"一模一樣的東西你照抄到稅務行政事件審理法當中對於接下來在整個程序法的法解釋的體系上面會造成什麼樣子的影響這個是你們要去深思的事情譬如說你們討論完了嗎討論完了嗎"},{"start":2623.065,"end":2640.058,"text":"請委員繼續譬如說你們現在在稅務行政事件審理法裡面採取強制律師代理那采取強制律師代理那針對有關於行政訴訟法裡面就有關於無資歷的部分訴訟救助的部分"},{"start":2641.243,"end":2667.993,"text":"你們在腦袋裡面想的啦可能是說那就當然適用所以我這邊沒有必要做特別規定我猜啦你們是這樣子想的但變成的是說齁在訴訟制度使用者的角度的觀點來看大家會開始陷入一個困惑所謂困惑是說你在裡面有重複寫沒有重複寫它所代表的意義到底是什麼"},{"start":2669.833,"end":2693.519,"text":"是你刻意要把它漏掉還是你沒有刻意要把它漏掉什麼時候要重複寫什麼時候不要重複寫你懂我的意思嗎譬如說在智慧財團案件審理法裡面在智慧財團案件審理法裡面基本上也是要律師代理但是在智慧財團案件審理法裡面就寫得很清楚啊"},{"start":2694.591,"end":2716.548,"text":"在強制律師必須要代理的情況之下他後面馬上接一項說你如果無資歷的話你如果無資歷的話可以依照訴訟救助的規定來去請有法院來幫你去指定你的訴訟代理人但是你在稅務事件審理法裡面卻沒有這樣子寫啊"},{"start":2720.546,"end":2739.564,"text":"那我要問的問題是說你們現在過去這幾年針對有關於審理程序規定了很多的特別法在民事訴訟的領域裡面除了智慧財團案件審理法裡外有傷勢事件法有勞動事件法"},{"start":2740.598,"end":2762.949,"text":"在那一邊的立法體力立法上面的原則跟你們現在所提出來的稅務行政案件審理法裡面兩者之間的落差非常的大所謂落差非常的大是在你們這部法律裡面在整個規範採取的模式上我看到的是混亂簡略加混亂"},{"start":2764.383,"end":2790.94,"text":"有哪一些東西真的有必要做特別規定把它清楚的列出來跟行政訴訟法裡面的規定要怎麼接軌有哪一些地方根本不需要重複的再去做處理卻做重複的處理所以我在看你們這部法律的時候要配合著行政訴訟法一起看我必須要老實跟你們講看的是很痛苦啦看得非常的痛苦啊"},{"start":2792.245,"end":2816.333,"text":"連我這種學訴訟法學了這麼久的人看了都覺得很痛苦你們就想想在使用訴訟制度的當事人使用訴訟制度的當事人他們看完了以後心裡會有什麼樣子心裡會有什麼樣子的想法這是第一點第一點我要提出來的事情"},{"start":2818.868,"end":2847.883,"text":"第二點我要處理的事情是說我上次在質詢的時候問了你們針對有關於剋稅的處分補稅的處分跟違反這一個納稅義務的罰還裁罰這兩件事情你們在你們的審理法裡面針對有關於當事人的協議義務基本上面我如果沒看錯是屬於一個同事的狀態"},{"start":2849.5,"end":2853.486,"text":"同事就是把他一視同仁的狀態但問題是從有關於課稅處分跟違反納稅義務的罰環"},{"start":2862.947,"end":2889.221,"text":"他在法律的性質上面本來就不一樣本來就不一樣針對有關於行政法的部分你們卻把他跟瞌睡處分在整個審理程序上面對當事人他所負的協力義務把他完全同事的情況之下跟過去很多最高行政法院的判決所建立起來的原則是不相一致的"},{"start":2890.069,"end":2896.459,"text":"你們是有意識的要變更過去最高行政法院的見解嗎因為這個問題牽涉到好幾個條文的處理"},{"start":2901.98,"end":2925.052,"text":"包括當事人他為真實完全陳述義務的範圍包括了當事人的協力義務以及包括了因為當事人所沒有陳述的時候所謂的舉證責任包括證明度的減低這件事情的不利益到底應該要由誰來加以負擔的問題因為這個牽涉到好幾個層次"},{"start":2928.507,"end":2952.945,"text":"好幾個條文的處理所以你們現在基本上面的原則跟立場是什麼如果你們原則跟立場是你們要把瞌睡的處分跟行政法環的部分不區別對待的認為當事人都負有一樣的協力義務而違反這個協力義務的時候會產生相同的法律效果的話"},{"start":2953.806,"end":2971.6,"text":"那我現在就會明確的說牽涉到這個共通問題相關的條文我今天都會要求要保留理由是在這件事情上面我自己個人所形成的法確性跟法價值跟你們現在所提出來的法案"},{"start":2972.321,"end":2998.766,"text":"我對協助草擬法案的老師沒有不敬的意思但我覺得很痛苦的事情是你們這個條文到底是怎麼出來的我一直跟你們要委員會討論的過程你們拒絕給我說那是什麼內部意思形成那我就覺得很奇怪民事訴訟法的老師是沒有內部意思形成民事訴訟法每一個條文字字斟酌"},{"start":3000.12,"end":3007.101,"text":"那個條文的文字是誰建議的理由是什麼在委員會的審議過程當中大家都可以看得到"},{"start":3008.624,"end":3031.253,"text":"所有對我們民事訴訟法的審議有問題的人這個條文怎麼變更的當初這個條文怎麼蹦出來的大家去看委員會討論的時候都知道是依照哪一個老師的哪一個學說的什麼想法去形成這樣子的法律文字乃至於要怎麼樣去解釋適用嘛但是你們稅務行政事件審理法我看你們的條文的時候我老實講我充滿了困惑"},{"start":3032.754,"end":3043.5,"text":"但我跟你們要委員會討論審議的過程你們又說這是內部資料是秘密不可以提供你們現在還是堅持不能提供嗎"},{"start":3046.24,"end":3068.833,"text":"好 那個剛剛黃委員有三點意見 那麼在陳廷長回答之前莊委員是不是讓陳廷長先回答 還是對黃委員的三點意見要繼續做問差不多我跟黃國昌委員他這個問題好 那就追詢我們的黃委員的意見謝謝張委員 剛剛列席的司法院我們這些官員"},{"start":3070.394,"end":3086.851,"text":"黃委員剛提到的這部分是用語是比較學術化的跟你們對話但是其實在審理的過程裡面我都常常一直站在比較民眾的角度在看待事情但是我提出來的問題就跟黃國昌委員就差不多"},{"start":3087.592,"end":3115.883,"text":"你像譬如說我一直想追問的就是說這個協力的義務跟不治政己罪這個概念裡面我看這整個稅審法第14條裡面有去提到說不得因為刑事訴罪而拒絕去做一個協力但是你說在這個實務上你當事人同時確實會有刑事的偽造文書或者說逃落稅那可不可以因為擔心刑事訴罪而拒絕履行這樣的一個協力"},{"start":3117.337,"end":3128.219,"text":"過去確實最高法院的看法跟我們現在這一部法的規定裡面我倒認為這一部法定下去你就是把過去最高法院的見解都推翻掉了"},{"start":3129.874,"end":3150.762,"text":"我這樣認為 這第一個因為過去啊 最高法院你看109年的判制49號裡面他在談那個法院應該認定該處罰要件事件不存在要把這個不利益歸給這個稅政機關就他提到的時候 納稅義務人在漏稅處罰程序裡面他認為他是沒有協力義務"},{"start":3153.154,"end":3169.689,"text":"所以剛好還是這樣認為 是沒有協力義務然後也就是說 他不用去自證己罪而且他也認為說 並且有無罪推定跟罪疑有利於被告 就是無罪原則的一個適用所以稅徵機關在對於漏稅沒有去事實負擔證明它這個存在你要去證明這樣的一個存在 這樣的一個客觀事實"},{"start":3178.197,"end":3181.409,"text":"那也就是說你過去最高法院認為說納稅義務人他是沒有協力義務"},{"start":3184.434,"end":3208.756,"text":"至少我從109年判之49號裡面我看到是這樣那現在是不是最高法院的見解也認為是類似於刑事法如果最高法院認為是刑事法的話那會不會跟現在司法院裡面的立場有產生變化這個我想必須要首先去做一個說明那另外其實我認為一個核心的問題"},{"start":3210.417,"end":3226.914,"text":"就是說我記得我剛開始在審這部法律的時候當初我是擔心是武器評審的問題啦當初是想說會不會那些你們去把我們隨身機關的人調到"},{"start":3228.115,"end":3240.766,"text":"借用這樣的一個人力或者武器平等的一個問題但是我想追問的就是說歷年來我看我們整個行政法案的問題裡面其實幾乎是最重要的核心問題是老百姓的勝率太低了太低了去年多少 好像16%這樣對"},{"start":3249.98,"end":3270.129,"text":"有19%你說那10幾%這樣的前提之下的話我們整個稅審法的如果這部法律您順利去通過了以後那你怎麼樣說在整個稅務事件的一個審理裡面讓民眾會覺得有更強的信任我覺得這很重要不然我們修法的目的要幹什麼我們不是只是一直在幫行政部門司法部門的立場是站在幫行政部門這樣拔鵝毛"},{"start":3278.305,"end":3306.445,"text":"我覺得這也不對那另外你說舉證責任的偏向納稅醫護人的問題你到底可不可以稍微去做一個環節啊去做一個環節說歷年你去看實務的見解裡面你說有將那個主觀證據的提出責任認定是客觀舉證的責任所以老百姓常常都因為自己沒有提出自己有利的證據去承擔這樣的一個不利益啊但我倒認為說在整個稅務事件當中你這個撤銷訴訟"},{"start":3308.406,"end":3330.84,"text":"並沒有主觀舉證責任你同時你稅政機關你應該去擔負更大的舉證責任才對你看我們這個行政訴訟法第136條裡面去闡述的立法理由他就講說主觀舉證責任是當事人一方為了免於敗訴就有爭執的事實向法院提出證據的一個行為的一個責任"},{"start":3332.481,"end":3354.047,"text":"那你客觀舉證責任是說這個要件事實不明法院假定事實不曉得存在或者不存在所生當事人不利益的結果的這樣一個責任所以本法在撤銷訴訟或其他維護公益的訴訟裡面你去明定法案應該職權來調查證據所以你說當事人到底有沒有主觀的舉證責任我反而認為沒有"},{"start":3357.742,"end":3383.532,"text":"不曉得我的理解會不會錯誤啦畢竟我也從實務來啦但是看整個法律的一個操作裡面你去搭配去看納保法第11條的立法理由它是在講說稅捐基徵機關在程序當中你稅捐事實的調查是稅捐機關本領你的職權你應該自行去負擔的義務"},{"start":3385.032,"end":3388.955,"text":"那你稅捐的一個義務人 他只有配合調查的協力義務而已耶那你如果把這樣的一個責任 把它給倒過來的話你去看納保法 你在11條 你再看它的第二項是說科稅或者處罰事實的產名不論在稅捐程序或者訴訟程序均受職權調查主義所支配應該由稅捐機關承擔最終的舉證責任"},{"start":3410.111,"end":3416.615,"text":"所以你看我從這樣的一個敘述以後我倒認為稅爭機關它才是調查並負有舉證的義務而納稅義務人他的協力義務是輔助稅爭機關的一個調查的性質他並沒有舉證責任"},{"start":3425.28,"end":3446.659,"text":"所以我談這些就是剛好附和黃國昌委員剛提到他談得比較學術但是我從實務面上來看的話你去搭配納法法來看的話所以我們這一次在審這個稅審法有沒有辦法去改善這樣的一個問題啦有沒有辦法去改善這樣的一個問題啦或者說你最高法院在實務上部分將主觀舉證責任你推給納稅義務人的情況之下這個問題會不會因為這部法律你通過以後"},{"start":3454.005,"end":3481.366,"text":"會造成不一樣生理的結果我比較在意的是這個啦所以先去把這個整個現行的食物的運作的一個太陽去做一個釐清而且你本法通過以後會有什麼樣的具體差別我們在審這部法律的時候我才會認為比較有那個正當性所以這個部分是不是請我們司法院這個地方來一併做一個說明好不好"},{"start":3482.079,"end":3510.931,"text":"好 那麼在社員代表說明之前主席這邊請機關代表留意因為現在在大體討論的階段那剛剛黃委員提出的三點問題那莊委員提出的我在聽起來大概有四五點那有些議題是同樣的議題那有些是有類似意見那是不是就請我們的機關代表陳廷長主一的 在你回應的時候最好是就哪位委員的問題 您主一的回應這樣委員會比較清楚 那麼請陳廷長"},{"start":3513.679,"end":3526.498,"text":"我先回應黃委員剛才的指教黃委員剛才有舉例就是說他覺得我們這部法比較難閱讀因為有一些要回過頭去看行政訴訟法的規定"},{"start":3530.454,"end":3553.113,"text":"這個的確如此我們不能否認但是為什麼會做這樣一個設計安排呢其實我們規劃的目的就是把具有稅務特性的部分把它拉到專法裡面因為它是一個訴訟法那訴訟法規範的相當的冗長從起訴前起訴 上訴審各個的程序它都有"},{"start":3553.533,"end":3555.034,"text":"很詳盡的規範那如果我們要把他這些規範全部通通納到我們專發裡面再來規範一次的話那就會有相當份量的條文都是會跟行政訴訟法完全重複"},{"start":3572.785,"end":3588.373,"text":"那我們是為了避免這樣子的法條過於冗長因此我們才把具有稅務事件特性特殊性的部分的條文把它規範在專法裡面那至於有一些的條文"},{"start":3592.577,"end":3613.894,"text":"我剛剛就跟主席請示嘛我講完了他沒有回答問題那他講完如果當回答問題這樣就沒有辦法點對點的討論嘛所以我針對他第一點的回答我懂你的意思啊所以我才問你啊法官採民權的部分行政訴訟法裡面就有規範啊啊你為什麼這裡又全部重新照抄一次"},{"start":3615.195,"end":3627.18,"text":"所以你講的立法原則是行政訴訟法有規定的社會事件審理法沒有改變你就不要重寫嘛那你這樣的講法跟我剛剛的問題你的回答你不是自打臉嗎"},{"start":3629.264,"end":3649.061,"text":"黃委員我這樣建議因為大體討論本來其他委員也有他的要詢問的議題那我們尊重每個委員讓他充分發言那因為機關代表他也要逐一的記錄那是否讓機關代表呢第一輪的部分讓他完整的陳述他的想法那針對委員的提問他每一點都提了那委員聽了之後呢再就他的答覆"},{"start":3649.481,"end":3672.06,"text":"不能有針對性的部分再提出第二次的追問我覺得因為委員會還有其他委員所以我覺得這樣的方式可能因為大體討論就是這樣那主條的話可能我們需要一對一的對應比較及時是不是請容許我們委員會我們讓委員在第一輪的發言後也讓機關代表做第一輪針對委員的詢問主義的回應讓他完整的說明好不好好 那請陳庭長繼續"},{"start":3673.871,"end":3680.873,"text":"所以我要接著講的就是說那為什麼我們這部法案11條的規定會跟行政訴訟法125條重複就是因為其實從11條12條13條14條都是規範協力義務的規定那我們因為尤其11條12條"},{"start":3695.858,"end":3709.512,"text":"12條後面有一些是跟行政訴訟法不太一致的部分所以我們是為了體力的完整因此在11條這一邊才做了這個跟行政訴訟法125條一樣的規範"},{"start":3712.096,"end":3728.195,"text":"那這是我首先說明的那第二點就是說其實我們的行政訴訟法第125條的第二項就已經明白規定說當事人對於行政法院的"},{"start":3729.035,"end":3745.2,"text":"這個他所主張的事實行政法院依職權調查的事實關係當事人負有協力義務這是在111年修法的時候就已經把它規定在裡面了"},{"start":3746.18,"end":3772.991,"text":"所以目前我們行政訴訟法的規定是如此而且在我們一般的行政訴訟法的領域的相關的爭議事件那其實裁罰處分都是普遍存在的那例如像環境事件公平交易法事件或者是交通的事件都是有裁罰處分在裡面"},{"start":3774.431,"end":3800.602,"text":"依照行政訴訟法125條第二項的規定這個就是都有當事人協力義務的適用我們並沒有去區別哪一種的處分有哪一種的處分沒有那如果我們單純在稅審法將當事人協力義務關於處尤其是關於處罰處分的這一個部分把它排除"},{"start":3801.141,"end":3817.816,"text":"那就會造成與目前現在各行政法領域不一致的情形那會導致體系的失衡這是我要先講明白的至於委員剛才有舉例最高行政法院的相關的判決委員剛才舉的是109判49"},{"start":3824.082,"end":3846.658,"text":"是在我們111年修法之前做成的裁判那關於這樣的一個裁判所表示的法律見解在修法之後是不是仍然可以適用我想這個應該是只有終審法院才能做出這樣一個決定"},{"start":3847.859,"end":3872.787,"text":"那我只是單純的陳述就是111年行政訴訟法修法的時候就已經明定了當事人有協力義務的這一件事情那我接著想要說明的是為什麼在行政訴訟法或者是我們的稅審法要特別強調當事人協力義務這一件事那因為"},{"start":3873.667,"end":3889.576,"text":"其實我們行政法院或者是行政訴訟的目的它不僅僅是在保障當事人的權益我們還要同時來確保國家行政權的合法行使"},{"start":3890.436,"end":3918.232,"text":"這也是我們行政訴訟的一個重要的任務那為了要確保國家行政權的合法行使因此發現事實 釐清事實的真相這一件事是非常重要的一件事但是我們的行政訴訟法又不如像刑事訴訟法一樣有搜索扣押這一些的機制我們完全沒有 因此"},{"start":3919.724,"end":3934.324,"text":"我們考慮到說其實很多事實或者是相關的證據資料都是掌握在當事人的手中是由當事人管理中的因此我們才會在這裡特別的強調"},{"start":3937.209,"end":3957.481,"text":"當事人負有協力義務他有跟法院一起來合作發現真實的這樣一個義務這是我們為什麼要特別強調協力義務的這個規定尤其是在公法的領域裡面那這是我要再做一點的補充的"},{"start":3958.081,"end":3977.418,"text":"那至於關於黃委員剛才有提到的就是說之前就叫我們的是說看目前草案的14條的規定就是因為我們科與當事人比較重的一個協力義務但是我們又怕說這個協力義務過重尤其是"},{"start":3978.418,"end":3990.829,"text":"那我們就在14條的第二項有做了一個緩和的措施也就是說今天如果你負協力義務的納稅義務人你同時有被告"},{"start":3992.105,"end":4009.193,"text":"刑事被告身份的時候那這個時候我們認為你的協力義務還是不能免除那為什麼呢我們是認為說如果今天他因為犯罪他在法律地位上就能夠獲得比較優厚"},{"start":4013.415,"end":4029.75,"text":"優厚的地位他可以不負協力義務他可以不要提出相關的證據資料他可以拒絕到場那我們會覺得相對於誠實守法的納稅義務人來講他卻在法律上要負擔"},{"start":4030.69,"end":4051.351,"text":"這一些的協力義務相較之下這是一件不公平的事情所以我們才會在14條第一項這樣來宣示說當事人的協力義務並不會因為你有受到刑事的追訴或處罰而免除但是同時我們也為了避免"},{"start":4052.292,"end":4077.846,"text":"這樣子的效果當省的協力義務效果太強並且同時考慮到不自證己罪的原則因此我們在同條的第二項做了一個緩和的措施也就是說這個時候不管是基層機關或者是行政法院你都不可以用強制執行的方法來實現促使當省實現他的協力義務"},{"start":4080.848,"end":4090.362,"text":"所以因此就做了相當的一個調和那我想跟黃委員報告這一條的規定是參考德國租稅通則300"},{"start":4096.058,"end":4100.32,"text":"我看一下103條跟393條兩條的規定把它規範在我們的第14條裡面這個是我們研究團隊聖子榮聖老師在我們研修的過程中大家就會有這個疑慮說如果讓這種"},{"start":4118.467,"end":4135.827,"text":"因為他不能免出行 協力義務的話會不會太嚴苛 因此做了大家想說做一個調和的機制 因此盛子隆老師才幫我們再研擬了這樣子一個條文出來所以不是沒有什麼黑箱的作業這樣子"},{"start":4137.168,"end":4151.565,"text":"那關於莊委員剛才有另外提到一個問題就是說那當時其實稅捐機關他負有依職權調查的義務他也有舉證的責任這一些"},{"start":4152.145,"end":4180.283,"text":"都是在納保不管是納保法或者是相關的法令規範都有明確的規範所以並不會因為當事人有協力的義務機關就可以免除掉他依職權調查的這個責任也不可以免除掉他有舉證責任的這個義務存在那我想這一個是絕對不會變動的那我初步報告到這裡 謝謝"},{"start":4181.724,"end":4209.349,"text":"好 那麼在第二輪之前那我再跟委員會說明一下那麼我們現在要進行第二輪那剛剛機關代表已經就第一輪兩位委員的質詢提出了回應那待會就請第一輪的委員發言委員可以去追問那在這裡因為內容相當多那大概剛剛我聽到的意見主席這邊聽到意見在之前我們的公聽會也有不同的學者專家提出不同的意見那機關代表也有做回應"},{"start":4210.169,"end":4229.68,"text":"那這裡吳主席也補充追加一點待會在第二輪的時候機關代表也可以一併對於第二輪發言內容加上主席這一點也請做回應剛剛有提到我們大體討論當中有提到稅審官的設置是否會增加造成原來當事人跟這個辯檢的一個"},{"start":4234.178,"end":4261.046,"text":"武器不對等剛剛莊委員有說的大家都會很多通俗意見認為說你從稅務行政機關調人去做稅審官來協助法庭審理是否使得當事人的不利更加傾斜那到底稅審官的設置是有助於法庭去發掘雙方所提的證據的事實還是協助稅務行政機關增加他們對於當事人不利證據的調查"},{"start":4262.706,"end":4281.61,"text":"這個部分可能我們在之前的公聽會有人有提出這樣的憂心再重複一點 簡單講從稅務行政機關借調人員來擔任稅審官協助專業法庭到底是幫助專業法庭能夠有效的對兩兆之間的舉證能夠做充分平衡客觀的評價還是強化了"},{"start":4284.731,"end":4309.871,"text":"對於稅務行政機關他們要去質疑要去對當事人的追訴幫助這個稅審官的設置反而對當事人是不利的這個年在第二輪發言的時候回應的時候請也進行補充那接下來我們第二輪是不是黃委員要表達 請第一個 你剛剛提到說行政訴訟法在2021年的時候有修正第125條"},{"start":4312.086,"end":4322.243,"text":"我們看一下行政訴訟法第125條的規定第一項它講的是什麼?它講的是我們採取職權探知主義"},{"start":4324.164,"end":4352.025,"text":"行政法院依職權調查事實關係不受當事人主張之拘束嘛那簡單的講就是沒有辯論主義的適用啊當事人所謂主張的事實法院也可以依照職權來加以審酌嘛那你進一步到證據當事人所謂聲明的證據法院也可以依照職權來加以調查嘛那這個就是行政訴訟法裡面採取職權探知主義這沒什麼好說的啦那第二個是什麼第二個是進一步的講說"},{"start":4354.54,"end":4380.367,"text":"對不起我看一下前項調查當事人因協力為之這個就變成了是這個條文請你看一下立法理由請你看一下立法理由那個裡面啊在裡面的理由是什麼他說行政訴訟的審理以職權調查為原則然偵訟事實發生在當事人間當事人有時較行政法院更能掌握正確的資訊"},{"start":4382.047,"end":4396.392,"text":"這個是基於誠實信用原則並促進訴訟之成熟當事人由於行政法院合作協力探求發現事實真相之必要所以真定第二項 明定當事人的協力義務但"},{"start":4397.612,"end":4421.384,"text":"行政訴訟法在125條規定了這第二項了以後所謂在這邊所講的當事人的協力義務跟你們在遂審法想要發生法律效果所可與當事人的協力義務可以是同一件事情嗎請注意喔 我用的是問號可以說是同一件事情嗎我為什麼說可以說是同一件事情嗎"},{"start":4422.844,"end":4450.425,"text":"第一個我不認為當初立法者在2021年修正行政訴訟法125條的時候我們的立法者腦袋裡面想的是他會變更在稅務行政案件當中科稅處分科稅處分跟罰還處分是兩件不一樣的事情兩件不一樣的事情在審理的原則上就應該要區別對待"},{"start":4451.806,"end":4478.123,"text":"就應該要區別對待我不認為立法者當初在修行政訴訟法125條的時候腦袋裡面要去變更最高行政法院在針對罰款處分的這個部分它所已經穩定形成的法律見解我真的不這樣認為我真的不這樣認為第二個那你說交給未來的法院在個案裡面去處理這就是我們現在在擔心的事情"},{"start":4479.901,"end":4499.663,"text":"這是我們現在在擔心的事情如果我們今天在稅務事件審理法聽你這樣子講一講我就直接放過去了按照你們這樣子的條文把罰還處分的部分也把它排除在或者是把它納入了本來在最高行政法院裡面當事人"},{"start":4500.444,"end":4523.546,"text":"不附有所謂的他要自證自己有受處罰的要件事實存在或是排除所謂的罪以為輕等等的原則的話那我就很清楚的表示我不同意其他立委同意我沒意見但是我不同意"},{"start":4525.148,"end":4548.429,"text":"因為這樣子的在訴訟上面的法律效果的變更太劇烈了啦太劇烈了到時候因為違反協力義務啊然後被罰什麼被罰罰還處分的當事人會找誰算帳啊會找我們現在坐在這裡審條文的委員算帳所以我立場一定要講得非常的清楚這件事情我反對啊"},{"start":4549.98,"end":4573.203,"text":"跟這件事情有關係其他所有的條文我都要求要保留我都要求要保留這為什麼是我在大體討論的時候我特別要把這件事情所點出來那司法院你們如果贊成想要用2021年的行政訴訟法來當作正當化的理由那我就坦白的講我不同意我也不接受"},{"start":4575.014,"end":4593.709,"text":"因為我可以很率直的講當初2021年在修行政訴訟法的時候那時候的立法者根本沒想到他在那個時候同意在行政訴訟法那個抽象的原理原則反饋到稅務事件案件當中竟然造成的效果是你們今天所提出來的法案"},{"start":4595.009,"end":4616.653,"text":"那按照剛剛啊 廳長所為的回覆 更有可能在講說啊 在行政助從法修正以後 前階最高行政法院的判決是不是還可以被維持還是有變更的必要 恐怕有進一步討論的空間那意思是什麼 意思是 你的意思是不用懲罪整法"},{"start":4618.311,"end":4646.133,"text":"當初行政訴訟法修了125條的規定以後其實最高行政法院的見解在這個脈絡裡面就要變跟我讀不出來我也不同意但如果存在這樣子法律風險的話那更加深了我們在處理稅審法的時候這個部分絕對不能放的決心那要不然的話當初的立法者在修行政訴訟法125條根本不曉得在修什麼"},{"start":4647.162,"end":4664.027,"text":"他所會造成的影響也搞不清楚然後就讓法院日後有可能用這個當作理由來變更之前最高行政法院所做出的穩定的而且比較保護納稅者人權的判決的法律見解"},{"start":4665.66,"end":4685.592,"text":"知識體大絕對不是開玩笑的事情第二個部分我從來沒有說什麼特定老師的研究案是黑箱什麼立法我今天再問一次在委員會裡面討論條文形成的過程當中的會議記錄可不可以交出來"},{"start":4687.105,"end":4714.997,"text":"我們每一個立委在這邊討論條文誰發表什麼樣的意見法條要怎麼修要往哪個方向我心中的價值判斷是什麼我們都全程錄音錄影還堪稱在立法院公報上面因為我們每一個立委要跟人民負責啊你們行政院現在你們現在司法院端出一個條文出來我現在倒還不牽涉到說是哪一個法官或是哪一個委員要負責任的問題啦"},{"start":4717.306,"end":4733.678,"text":"雖然按照邱連功老師的看法邱連功老師的看法我相信你們大家都很清楚生條文出來是有社會責任跟歷史責任的這是為什麼民事訴訟法研修會要求這個條文怎麼出來的白紙黑字"},{"start":4735.626,"end":4752.882,"text":"都要跟社會大眾公開那未來的法官未來的學生未來的研究者在研究這些條文的時候司法院的條文的形成過程當中當初的考慮是什麼可以讓大家知道那理由我已經說到"},{"start":4755.546,"end":4770.539,"text":"我不想再複述了我今天只有個最直接的你們這個稅務行政案件審理法裡面你說大家花了很多時間研修了兩年嘛那研修了兩年總有會議記錄吧會議記錄可以交出來嗎這是我的問題"},{"start":4772.366,"end":4798.079,"text":"好 謝謝 因為剛剛黃國昌委員強調有兩個部分其他委員有沒有要針對第一階段大條件進行追問的不然我們就請機關代表先就黃委員的這兩個部分來進行回應跟闡明那還是要提醒一下我們目前因為受民選託付的立法委員我們的意識必然要對選民公開這是一個民主政治的責任政治那我想這個部分我想我們都很清楚"},{"start":4798.539,"end":4814.869,"text":"那至於行政機關或司法院本身我相信包括大法官受到民意基礎提醒同意權的這些人員包括大法官在憲法審理也有義務對於社會進行公開的說明因為他們是經過"},{"start":4815.849,"end":4830.598,"text":"有民意機關基礎所同意的人員包括考試委員包括監察委員大概在委員的部分都有如此的規定那至於說除了這些憲法機關的經民意機關行使同意權的委員的或官員的"},{"start":4831.559,"end":4849.319,"text":"意識有一定程度必須介入之外那其他的機關內部的形成那怎麼去進行對社會做一定程度的說明我想待會在機關代表也可以一併陳述好謝謝那麼就請就剛剛黃委員的部分兩個部分請機關代表進行回應"},{"start":4879.495,"end":4898.65,"text":"是的 報告黃委員 關於行政訴訟法125條是民國111年修正的我想這裡他的修正理由也講得非常的明確其實就是可與當事人協力義務 而且是要跟法院合作協力探求發掘事實的真相"},{"start":4902.826,"end":4925.06,"text":"這個當時確實是沒有做任何的除外的規定那至於最高刑黃委員剛才指教的那個判決那我們我們尊重啦但是我們也沒有辦法去對忠誠法院所表示的法律意見再多所智慧那以上是我的說明 謝謝"},{"start":4926.479,"end":4938.485,"text":"好 其他委員有沒有要再做第二人選隨理委員會的記錄是有沒有要交出來我問了 然後你拒絕回答可以這樣喔 司法院可以這樣喔那麼請副秘書長做回應"},{"start":4942.56,"end":4964.074,"text":"跟委員那個報告因為這部分那個委員會的歷程就是有長達兩年時間那當時邀請委員就是過來參與會議的時候那時候並沒有告知他們說這些會議以後是就是要交到那個立法院去的那就是就是他們"},{"start":4965.407,"end":4991.601,"text":"大家知道說這個一個討論過程是非常長的它並不是像現在我們已經提出來東西有一個固定的那個東西那所以說就是為了保障就是不只是這一次委員會啦因為在司法院有非常多像類似的委員會就是為了充分的保障就是這一些邀請到的委員他們可以很充分的那個發言就是這些資訊可以就是沒有什麼忌諱的可以在這邊充分的那個做一個"},{"start":4992.521,"end":5001,"text":"交流那所以就是我們暫時是沒有就是這一部分那個記錄是沒有那個就是提出來以上補充報告"},{"start":5003.339,"end":5023.756,"text":"好 謝謝那在這裡主席請教一下因為我們知道那麼在機關意見形成過程中會諮詢相當多的學者專家這些意見來源那這些意見的提供者本身是否知道他所提供的意見未來要被問責我想這涉及到他的意見未來對於未來的最後"},{"start":5024.637,"end":5043.083,"text":"形成的內容是否有拘束力那如果說今天向大法官向法庭任何大法官的見解未來對於最後的判決會有一定的影響那我們相信這樣的內容應該被揭露那如果說機關在形成這樣的最後意見之前所收集的意見提供意見者"},{"start":5043.883,"end":5065.871,"text":"他不預知知道自己的意見對最後所形成的有一定的拘束力那我們要如何的問責或去了解機關在形成最後意見之前所收集的這些內容是否完善那我想今天不只是黃委員包括主席這邊也關切著因為司法院相對於我們其他行政機關跟我們立法院的接觸是相對比較少"},{"start":5067.071,"end":5081.231,"text":"那如果一個行政機關部會之間他們要形成一個法案那這些法案他們怎麼樣去收集意見然後成為機關最後的提案內容我想立法院這邊會對於行政院的部分做出較多的詢問"},{"start":5082.913,"end":5104.703,"text":"那而在這過程當中因為過去的例子較多我們大概也知道從立法機關要去索取這相關的資料大概有哪些的對象跟範圍而當時行政機關他在提供這些資料的時候他也可以拿捏那樣的分寸那因為司法院過去在做這些相關法案的提案的時候大概都是以最後機關形成的意見來提供給本院"},{"start":5105.463,"end":5132.474,"text":"進行委員會的討論那當我們想要進一步去發掘這些意見形成的過程到底有哪些不同意見可以讓我們來參酌這的確是一個我們委員會有想要去了解的所以我可以理解我們委員提出來這個要求有它一定的合理跟正當性但是由於過去比較沒有這樣的一個例子所以我是希望說我們機關代表針對委員的要求你們是不是能夠做一個比較完整充分的"},{"start":5132.934,"end":5162.274,"text":"一個談診因為我也知道當下你們要剛說的當時兩年前提供那個研討會當中學者的意見他怎麼知道他的意見之後到我們這裡審查會被要求揭露這個我想的確始料未及但是在什麼情況之下合一的可以來提供我們還是很希望司法院這邊能夠想辦法呢滿足我們委員會在審查法案當中所必要掌握的諮詢內容那這個部分剛剛因為莊委員好像有表示意見了"},{"start":5162.934,"end":5184.23,"text":"要求要來請專委員謝謝這個司法院這個地方可能也沒有去講清楚啦你說一般大法官你向法庭不要說向法庭你說在一般法院裡面大法官尤其是大法官他做出來的意見書或者說部分不同意見書不管你什麼樣的方式他去呃 闡釋他的看法"},{"start":5194.024,"end":5211.43,"text":"這對這個整個憲法法庭在解釋法律到底有沒有違背憲法的時候我相信他是勇於去把他的主張提出來然後都會具名那是不是在整個司法人員對於我們這一些研討會的"},{"start":5213.21,"end":5235.405,"text":"這一些學者專家他們的一個意見來提供就他提供給立法院我倒覺得有他的一個必要性啦你像比如我們也可以知道說當初學者之間的不同的一個意見攻防他們著墨的在意的是些什麼 擔心的是些什麼這個其實有他的意義 那至少是不是"},{"start":5236.866,"end":5244.991,"text":"有的人會覺得說那我當初參加研討會我沒有想到說這個東西會送到立法院那有沒有可能去示白法的方式你不要笑啊你會擔心你就是這個原因啊"},{"start":5253.476,"end":5272.987,"text":"我今天如果你看我一直強調啊你像很多判決出來以後社會大眾認為那是恐龍法官做出來的恐龍判決我常常不認為啊我常常認為那是很大膽的要看他的說理怎麼樣啊那時不符合國民的法律感情或一般人的法感啊但是那個邏輯是看起來是看起來是還通的可是導出那個結論那個確實是很大膽啊但是問題是你在研討的過程裡面"},{"start":5282.412,"end":5301.032,"text":"勇於去提出他自己的看法如果是我我都好不容易有這個機會提出來要讓立法院來接受啦那應該是會更喜歡把自己的名字揭露才對我不曉得啦你們的擔心會是什麼是說怕對他們不夠尊重"},{"start":5302.25,"end":5328.556,"text":"或者說有當事者的學者專家認為我就不想東西丟到立法院有人這樣主張嗎應該是不是你司法院你們過於擔心了不然你廳長你今天不要做廳長你今天你好學者專家的新聞來你參加這個研討會你要公佈同意見當然是希望說你的看法你的主張來被立法院或者說你們司法院提出來的一個版本裡面給接受啊"},{"start":5329.758,"end":5347.894,"text":"他後來就說出來,不要跟他說,不要跟他說我真沒說真沒說我怕人家知道,應該不至於才對啊我認為啦,我認為這樣子比較不符合人性所以立法院這樣的一個要求,我認為是合理的除非你跟我講說,當事人,我那個學者專家會對他造成什麼樣的壓力我比較難想像"},{"start":5350.936,"end":5362.202,"text":"我比較難想像我今天針對這個條文裡面我覺得這個設計是不好的我提出我的看法我希望你示範提出的版本是按照我的意思的那我應該是要讓大家知道才對啊我也很喜歡讓大家知道才對啊通過了就是我自己的對整個法律設計的一個貢獻"},{"start":5372.895,"end":5392.383,"text":"那沒有通過我很負責的我當一個學者我很有骨氣你看當年那個條文我是批判站在批判的一個立場的我覺得也還好所以我不知道你們的顧忌是什麼這一點我真的從從頭到現在我都沒有聽懂是不是可以請副理事長這邊來說明一下你們的"},{"start":5393.203,"end":5409.798,"text":"沒有辦法來提供的理由是什麼因為你們一直講說當初請這些學者專家來沒有去想到說這些東西要送到立法院那好像是說這些東西對立法院來揭露的話是一件很可怕的事我覺得不會"},{"start":5410.859,"end":5438.63,"text":"我看了以後反而覺得說 喔 這個學者專家是有見地的喔然後或者說哪怕他是提出不同的一個看法裡面學者跟專家本來就是跟我們立法院本來就不一樣啦你如果要逼武林來說 那不一樣的感染啊你未來他會逼你的學術能力 你未來逼就差很多啊學術能力哪怕很好 進到立法院來會降低啊因為大部分都著墨在政治啊 很合理啊"},{"start":5439.923,"end":5442.545,"text":"所以你們是在怕什麼?我告訴你應該是很扎實的啊因為你們那個理由講得立法院這邊聽起來我看中央秘務委員招委他也聽得怪怪的啊我也聽起來怪怪的啊我覺得這個"},{"start":5457.886,"end":5483.997,"text":"其實我也想知道不是只有黃國昌想知道我也想知道說其他在這個審理的過程裡面大家所持的態度是些什麼也讓立法委員在整個審理法案的過程裡面多一點長一點知識也不錯啊因為學者專家在攻防的時候總是因為他對整個體系他有著墨哪怕是這個天馬行空那總是不會胡說八道啊"},{"start":5487.577,"end":5511.516,"text":"好 那個機關代表因為莊委員的部分是不是能夠比較具體的說明因為我們都知道因為立法院為了完善法案的修訂那我們會有公聽會而這公聽會是規定在我們立法院執行新司法當中那麼來參與的學者專家也知道他所發表的意見會做"},{"start":5514.218,"end":5532.718,"text":"完整的公開跟介入那我不曉得司法院在進行相關法案的研修你們開的研修會的性質跟定位以及當時邀請學者專家來彼此的認知是什麼那麼又剛剛幾位委員發表的例件是說就立法委員的立場來講我們邀請來的學者專家在公聽會上"},{"start":5533.419,"end":5562.187,"text":"他們不管相同或不同都對我們整個立法是有幫助應該是樂於也得到他們肯定會被介入我想很多學者專家在公聽會他之所以願意來他知道他表示的意見在立法院裡面會留下記錄的那不曉得我們司法院當時你們在形成這道法案的草案過程當中那些研修會是否具有同樣的性質也具有彼此之間對這個事情的最後的處理有一個共同的認知那麼請副委員長說明"},{"start":5568.31,"end":5570.573,"text":"政府資訊公開法第18條第1項第3款"},{"start":5584.426,"end":5608.02,"text":"政府機關做成議事決定之前呢它內部單位的擬稿或者是其他那個準備作業就是這個部分是可以不用原則上原則上是可以不用公開的那就是我們成立了一個委員會其實這些都是諮詢性質就是都是讓他們提供那這些意見事實上委員有時候講的那個意見"},{"start":5609.441,"end":5632.929,"text":"這整個都是一個流動的那個過程會彼此說服跟那個反駁那最後這個都只是一個政策形成的一個階段那最後就是說我們會採取本院司法院他會採取什麼樣的一個立場比如說要不要去規定一個協力義務或者是說那個最後相關的這一些"},{"start":5634.029,"end":5662.336,"text":"採什麼總額原則的這一些那個政策呢它其實還是由那個司法院就是我們的那個業務廳最後的那個決定的啊那所以這個只是一個政策形成的過程那當然就是說以上那個不管是那個主席或者是說剛才那個黃委員跟莊委員的那個指教我覺得也都很有道理那這部分司法院就是對於我們過去的那個做法我們是不是要變更我想這個我們都可以研議的"},{"start":5664.705,"end":5684.747,"text":"那我這邊繼續追問因為我們都知道一般通俗的理解如果以報社的社論通常報社拼有主筆群那主筆群在執筆這些社論的時候是不具名的但它既然刊出就代表報社的機關立場大概類似但是報社製導知道說這一篇是誰寫的"},{"start":5686.449,"end":5706.496,"text":"那過去也曾經發生過類似的案子,就是到底竹筆寫的這篇社論,報社有記錄,那我肯定有記仇,那麼未來呢,在探討該竹筆在其他的事件上,需要了解他的收入的時候呢,那麼報社是可以就其竹筆的社論的統計,去了解說他到底在"},{"start":5707.656,"end":5723.402,"text":"只比了哪些社論 支領了多少酬勞至少有個記錄啦所以我就很好奇說那到底我們這些最後意見的形成有哪些委員參與那他們那些學者專家的意見如果被納入了 那至少你們知道嘛"},{"start":5724.102,"end":5744.051,"text":"我想這個要有記錄這個是一件事情那至於要不要對外公開您講到了政府資訊公開法當中的規定我們也了解但是呢是不是您再想一下那因為有委員繼續要詢問還有在第一輪的大體討論當中主席這邊有提出一個關於稅審官的設置的一些問題也待會請能夠回覆現在先請黃委員我再說一次剛剛可能有委員提到說過去沒有這種例子"},{"start":5752.996,"end":5777.253,"text":"過去就有這種例子啊怎麼會過去沒有這種例子呢我剛剛一直跟你們講民事訴訟法的研修整個歷程完整啊連當過司法院秘書長的呂太郎他每一次都參加啊他清楚的不得了啊怎麼會沒有這種例子"},{"start":5778.615,"end":5793.645,"text":"最可怕的事情是什麼最可怕的事情是公開跟不公開完全掌握在所謂行政機關在你們是司法行政機關的手上這個就形成了什麼 恣意嘛我愛公開就公開我想不公開就想不公開什麼時候給你們這種權利啊這不就是恣意嗎"},{"start":5808.373,"end":5830.365,"text":"我不想公開的時候隨便找個法條來當擋箭牌我想公開就公開這不是法律所正要防止的恣意嗎怎麼會沒有例子不僅僅是司法院你們去看一下法務部在做民法研修的時候一樣記錄公開啊"},{"start":5834.281,"end":5845.508,"text":"要不然我怎麼知道這條物權法的規定條文是怎麼來的你立法理由通常寫得很清淺嘛誰怎麼主張誰怎麼主張誰怎麼主張嘛但是在稅務事件審理法裡面我為什麼要跟你們要研討會委員會裡面的討論紀錄因為國內針對這個事情相關的討論就很稀薄嘛"},{"start":5863.157,"end":5890.396,"text":"正是因為很稀薄沒有辦法從搜尋那些學者的論文知道他們真的看法所以才跟你們要記錄嘛以前在修形式訴訟的時候有哪一個老師在參與形式訴訟的研修會害羞自己的見解李育雄老師的看法是什麼王兆鵬老師的看法是什麼陳韻才老師的看法是什麼法律系的學生大家通通都要知道啊"},{"start":5892.022,"end":5898.667,"text":"這個條文最後是按照哪一個老師的學說寫出來的念法律的人都會知道啊這個字要保護什麼隱私啊我完全聽不懂啊我再說一次啊這不是沒有潛力啊這也不是在探知什麼個人的隱私啊"},{"start":5918.736,"end":5947.137,"text":"參與司法院各種法律案的研修是一件光榮的事情法律學者能夠去參與司法院法律案的研修是一件光榮的事情因為自己的想法自己的學說見解有可能成為法條特別是在針對司法院所提出來的法律案到立法院這邊來可以說是相對於行政部門提出的修改的幅度都很低啦"},{"start":5948.39,"end":5976.626,"text":"因為專業程度高嘛專業程度高嘛特別是訴訟法的規定但問題是什麼 但問題是為什麼這件事重要剛剛你們講了半天說啊 這個去變更當事人的協力義務不是這次才幹的之前新生訴訟法就幹了那我就想要知道嘛你們那個時候委員會在討論的時候是基於這個理由嗎還是有其他的考慮"},{"start":5979.363,"end":6003.757,"text":"而且委員會在訂這個條文的時候是不是已經有意識了清楚的意識到沒錯我就是要變更最高行政法院的法律見解最高行政法律見解不是只有一個好幾個啦不是只有一個好幾個好幾個下來穩定都是這樣子的看法了那個見解最後造成的影響是什麼就是訴訟的勝判"},{"start":6005.714,"end":6020.872,"text":"有沒有協力義務舉證責任要不要減輕最後影響的是什麼就是訴訟的勝敗而那個訴訟的勝敗就是人民的權益這個是為什麼我們這麼重視這件事情的狀況"},{"start":6024.332,"end":6045.775,"text":"我希望啦 司法院東西要交出來你們如果這麼堅持 東西都不交出來的話 那沒關係今年處理預算的時候 看用附帶決議還是主決議以後司法院 在研修這些法律的時候所有的研修紀錄 不是交給立法院而已啦是對全民公開啦對全民公開啊"},{"start":6047.011,"end":6063.882,"text":"大家對這個法律要有意見有想法很好奇當初什麼時候提出來怎麼提出來的都可以有個清楚的記錄可以遵循啦好在接班代表回應之前齁嗯翁委員有意見嗎我做個先做個整理齁好那呃"},{"start":6067.125,"end":6078.041,"text":"我們委員會針對睡神法開過公聽會那麼邀請來的學者專家本身其實剛剛我們討論的意見在那場公聽會都各有學者專家持不同看法"},{"start":6078.683,"end":6102.673,"text":"那我想跟委員會建議市法院可不可以就這些公聽會的出席的學者專家過去曾參與稅審法的研修的時候他們如果有參與那我們就知道他後來在公聽會表達的意見應該跟他在研修都參與研修的時候的意見或者他之所以願意表達公開被記錄應該是一致的這是推論"},{"start":6103.573,"end":6111.194,"text":"好 他如果說來公聽會會講一套那麼他在研究會的時候想必也應該是類似的意見那他"},{"start":6112.725,"end":6139.088,"text":"不吝於讓社會知道他的公聽會表達的意見應該也不吝於讓他研修會表達意見也讓社會各界知道可不可以請機關代表請整理我們上次的公聽會有出席的學者專家過去有哪些曾經參與過你們在長達兩年稅審法研擬當中的研修會至少我們委員會會知道說那天來參加公聽會的哪些人"},{"start":6139.548,"end":6152.138,"text":"在研修會裡面可能有哪些意見這個我想至少是比較容易馬上就現在可以取得的好不好那待會呢 翁委員詢問完畢之後呢剛剛主席有詢問的那個最審慣的意見請再一併回應來 請翁委員"},{"start":6155.939,"end":6175.371,"text":"是 有關於這個研修會的會議記錄要不要全部公開我個人的看法是說當然這個研修會其實已經結束了嘛中間這個陸陸續續大概兩年多都有在開會那麼確實如果說當時主管機關是沒有去一開始詢問"},{"start":6176.472,"end":6189.638,"text":"這些學者他們願不願意公開他的會議記錄的情況之下那這個司法院要貿然公開可能也不見得那麼恰當但是我相信就是以我過去曾經參加過一些法律研修的經驗來講法律學者們應該是不會介意把這個他在會議上面的一些言論的表達他對於一些法律觀點的論述予以公開那麼但是確實這些會議記錄對於我們立法院在審查相關"},{"start":6205.285,"end":6213.407,"text":"法案的時候也是很重要的一個參考資料所以這裡有沒有可能可以請廳長或是副部長這邊可以就是再去問一下當時參與的這個學者們他們是不是願意就是就他們整個發言記錄整個逐字稿的記錄呢就是實名公開如果不願意的話"},{"start":6228.311,"end":6249.117,"text":"是不是也可以用匿名的方式譬如說A委員B委員C委員的這樣子的一個方式公開因為我想我們的重點是在於想要知道到底在研修會議的時候委員的當時他們所陳述的法律觀點是如何那麼至於說哪個委員他是不是願意公開他的這個姓名讓我們立法委員"},{"start":6249.817,"end":6272.443,"text":"或是讓民眾知道那我覺得這個以我的判斷大家是會願意公開的但是如果說真的有少數的學者認為他的可能他的前述的觀點有所改變那也怕大家誤會認為要先隱匿他的名字的話那是不是又可以用代號的方式來公開我覺得這個或許也是一個折衷的解決方法以上建議"},{"start":6275.15,"end":6293.289,"text":"謝謝 謝謝翁委員的建議 聽起來蠻可行的那這裡先做一個宣告跟預告那我想為了讓機關代表有時間去處理剛剛委員詢問的我們會在10點半的時候做一個小休息那如果你們有事情要趕快請這些資料啦 要去整理啦 要去提供 要去詢問在這段時間你們趕快去進行"},{"start":6294.89,"end":6307.594,"text":"那麼剛剛在場如果還沒有委員要心目的詢問的時候是不是就剛剛主席這邊提到關心的稅審官的設置會不會使目前雙方不對等的地位更加惡化還是能夠幫助兩邊包括這個稅務醫務人那些醫務人跟我們稅務行政機關能夠更為平衡請說明"},{"start":6319.14,"end":6347.411,"text":"謝謝主席我想跟各位委員報告的是關於我們這一次法案新設置一個叫做稅務審查官那其實他是一個法官法院內部的一個輔助的人力那為什麼要新增設這個人力呢是因為我們這一部法案他擴大了法院的法官的職權法官的責任變重了就是法官他必須要"},{"start":6349.712,"end":6367.839,"text":"確實核定出認定出一個稅額一個數額出來那甚至在帳證不完整的情況之下他還要透過一些推計的方法來推計科稅來做這件事情所以我們其"},{"start":6368.479,"end":6391,"text":"及需要這一種具有稅務積增專業的人員來協助首先說明的是其實我們這個職位是法院內部的機構內的專家成員所以他是受法官的指揮監督也就是法官在"},{"start":6392.521,"end":6406.148,"text":"偵辦具體個案的時候有需要的時候就可以請稅審官來幫忙處理例如我們目前草案有四種推計的方式到底哪一種最能夠竊盡真實的稅額"},{"start":6408.789,"end":6430.066,"text":"我們就可以請這樣專業的人力來幫我們計算看看到底要採用哪一種的方式這一種既然是法院內部的人員同時我們也考慮到它的中立性的問題因此我們在法條本身就設有稅務審查官迴避的制度"},{"start":6432.268,"end":6446.661,"text":"繼續報告之前我想再跟各位補充的就是我們這個稅審官的來源其實我們設計的是多元禁用的他除了跟基層機關借調之外也可以自行來聘用"},{"start":6449.043,"end":6475.183,"text":"這個具有這一方專業知識的人員所以他是在法官監督之下來處理相關的事物如果是借調過來的從原來的基增機關借調過來我們也怕他之前有參與相關案件的處理因此我們有在法律明文規定他有迴避的制度是准用法官迴避的規定那"},{"start":6475.583,"end":6504.189,"text":"另外我們也考量到說大家怕說如果從機關界調過來有這種官官相護對納稅義務人不公平的情形我想我們是可以透過一些內部的管考或者是考評的機制來導正他的一些的觀念那例如我們也許可以設就是說他怎麼樣幫法官找到原處分"},{"start":6505.009,"end":6519.092,"text":"有違法之處那他怎麼樣幫法官正確的計算稅額這都可以作為他的績效績效加分的項目藉由一些內部考評的機制來確保他的中立性其實我們"},{"start":6528.714,"end":6551.2,"text":"也有之前公聽會也有請智慧法院來說明因為像類似的制度在智慧法院他們也有技術審查官跟商業調查官那尤其是技術審查官的部分目前他們有12位是跟經濟部智慧財產局"},{"start":6552.62,"end":6567.479,"text":"戒掉相關的專業人員來從事專利行政訴訟的處理那根據智慧法院提出來的統計數據我們也可以看得出來當他們設置"},{"start":6570.301,"end":6594.887,"text":"這個計審官之後那整個撤銷原儲分就是發現原儲分有違物的地方撤銷原儲分的比例是整個增高的那也有相關的統計數據資料顯示就是在設置計審官之前其實他們去撤銷原儲分的比例可能都是在10%以下"},{"start":6597.472,"end":6617.824,"text":"從設置這個計審官之後他們的撤銷原儲分的比例提高到19.67那所以其實從相關已經有實證經驗的這個技術審查官的這個制度來看的話那希望可以"},{"start":6620.166,"end":6645.387,"text":"這個事宜委員們的疑慮跟這個納稅義務人的疑慮那我想這是法院內部的人員我們有責任確保他的中立性那當然就是可以透過迴避的規定透過內部考核的規定那而且最重要的是他是在法官的指揮監督之下最後的決定是法官來做成的那以上初步報告 謝謝"},{"start":6646.397,"end":6674.954,"text":"好 謝謝大體討論的部分 好 我們第三輪 是不是請黃委員因為今天 現在在大體討論嘛剛剛那個資料的部分我是覺得洪小林委員其實開了一條路啦你請司法院再回去思考一下照翁委員那樣子建議的處理方式我認為相對是比較緩和一點但如果真的沒有辦法處理的話那我們就必須要透過其他的途徑"},{"start":6676.414,"end":6701.394,"text":"就必須要透過其他的途徑來處理我想話講到這邊應該是算蠻清楚第二個就是審判的部分就是審判的部分就打開天窗說兩話就是稅務法院在德國的稅務法院他們的法官就在做什麼就直接在那算稅額因為人家有能力算"},{"start":6703.237,"end":6728.513,"text":"我應該沒說錯啦德國稅務法院他在整個審判權獨立的時候為什麼稅務法院是獨立出來的他們要去追求訴訟上面的經濟避免萬年稅單然後避免在行政機關跟行政法院來來回回造成人民十年二十年甚至三十年的痛苦打開天窗說亮話就是人家的法官有能力算嘛"},{"start":6729.867,"end":6752.321,"text":"直接在訴訟的審理堂中他就算了嘛算了以後判決就直接講清楚你要繳多少錢嘛紛爭就解決了嘛那在台灣就不是這樣嘛所以你們為什麼要涉稅審官我可以理解啦因為法官就沒有能力算嘛所以要找人來幫忙懂得怎麼算的人來幫法官算"},{"start":6753.615,"end":6782.967,"text":"我可以理解我可以理解那問題是什麼現在問題有兩個層次第一個是來源從行政機關這邊來的人每一個人在工作的時候一定會形成他的工作慣性從頭到尾怎麼算的那些含釋怎麼解釋適用的怎麼反映到稅額具體的計算上面那個是在稅務機關裡面工作了可能10年20年以上"},{"start":6784.292,"end":6812.239,"text":"他的整個思考的方式完全就是那一套那你覺得他會突然因為到法院了以後他思考的方式改變嗎我老實講書難想像書難想像那第二個你要從外面找專業的人進來其實我也不反對但問題是你們到底跟考試院處理好了沒有因為上次考試院"},{"start":6814.088,"end":6835.039,"text":"給的意見有關職官等的不可用聘用的方式處理會破壞文官體系那可是我上次問了這個問題我還是沒聽到答案所以你們現在司法院跟考試院針對這件事情最後的結論到底是什麼因為現在大體討論的時候剛剛主席召委提出這個問題"},{"start":6836.3,"end":6852.278,"text":"那我就沿著再往下弄因為針對你們要去輔助法官所設的稅審官的這一件事情恐怕跟智慧財產局裡面的技術審查官沒有辦法當成是一個相同的事情在處理"},{"start":6853.459,"end":6876.177,"text":"沒有辦法當成是一個相同的事情在處理因為針對那些技術審查官以前之前在有關於專利案件當中是不是無效或者是得撤效技術性上面他能夠是純技術性上面的考慮跟在稅務案件當中在稅務案件當中稅務課程機關他們"},{"start":6879.268,"end":6894.554,"text":"長久以來所累積的工作習慣跟他們的思維模式是不是會藉由稅審官帶到本來要以納稅者權利保護為宗旨的這一次稅務行政案件勝立法裡面"},{"start":6895.908,"end":6921.323,"text":"社會各界有非常多的疑慮有非常多的疑慮而到目前為止你們說這些人到法院來他就是法院的所以他就會變得中立這樣子的解釋恐怕不太具有說服力以上好 謝謝因為剛剛有我們吳世耀委員舉手那民主黨是吳委員要先讓他想還是他再答那個吳委員"},{"start":6924.38,"end":6939.03,"text":"好那委員那先就這提供部分那關於稅審官的部分因為又提及到有包括我們今天後面第二案的這個行政法院組織法有相關到稅審官的設置的問題先就資料提供先簡短的做說明請副院長"},{"start":6940.35,"end":6962.688,"text":"第一個有關於那個稅審法當時制定研修委員會第一個有關於委員的這個部分是已經公開的這個部分沒有問題這個現在大家也都可以查得到那第二個就是有關於那個會議內容是否公開那我非常感謝就是各位委員跟主席的那個指教那我想司法院立場是只要能夠讓這個立法"},{"start":6964.309,"end":6991.148,"text":"大家可以充分的那個溝通那更完善的立出一個對我們國家有用的那個法律我們都很願意去做那所以我覺得那個委員也提供了很多具體的那個方式那我想這個部分我們會努力去做會去做那個研議那很快的我們也會把這個結果就是帶向那個立法院報告好 以上謝謝 那吳委員請吳委員之後我們可能結婚等會後我們就先休息一下好"},{"start":6993.466,"end":7020.368,"text":"對 主席已經宣布10點半休息就資料的提供大家再對話一下能夠把握休息前的時間在納稅者權利保護法上路之後我們訂這個專法就有其必要嘛那剛剛一個上午大家的討論都會focus在稅務審查官畢竟他是一個新的設置他的中立性 他的專業性到底是稅審官說了算還是法官說了算"},{"start":7021.129,"end":7036.164,"text":"好剛剛已經很清楚的說明最終的這個judgement還是法官但是大家還是有這樣子的一個擔憂但是就33個條文的一個新的專法的立法裡頭所以省官當然他很重要不過他的條文就是在25條啦"},{"start":7037.879,"end":7042.626,"text":"那當然另外是配套是行政法院組織法的這個有第五條有增加在全文33條裡頭它攸關的還有大家倡議這麼久的你怎麼去落實總額主義啦怎麼去加強當事人的協力義務啦"},{"start":7054.463,"end":7057.364,"text":"甚至怎麼樣去擴大強制這個律師的代理範圍等等那當然更重要的這個暫時權力保護的機制要建立所以他33個條文裡頭我覺得每一個條都可以事實上是可以先推進去討論的那至於稅審官的部分在25條如果大家還有疑議的話"},{"start":7073.071,"end":7099.373,"text":"那個條文大家可以再保留所以我是希望說民間也倡議這麼久那司法院的這些各項的討論也進行了這麼多那要提供資料就完整的提供這本來就是可以公開的但我不希望因為稅審官的這個他只是牽涉一個條文那是不是可以請主席我們可以廣泛討論之後可以逐步推進有爭議的條文就保留就好"},{"start":7100.155,"end":7117.614,"text":"那需要我們接官代表回嗎 因為我們待會要上休息 有沒有要先回應我這樣覺得啦 複密還有聽長修法的過程裡面 你像比如說以前民宿訴訟的修法學者跟學者罵來罵去 話也許不好聽"},{"start":7119.901,"end":7145.734,"text":"委員會這邊要的不是要其實真的不是要那一些啦就是說你那個那個意見的形成裡面要那個才有意思而已嘛你學者有時候不想要做公關公關也很火爆很可憐的這見識過所以我倒反而覺得剛剛我提到那個趨勢變化我看別的委員也有這樣的一個相同的一個認同政府的資訊公開的部分確實是"},{"start":7148.396,"end":7175.471,"text":"機關內部意見在行程過程或者行程之前可以不用提供可是你也要去看那個單書啊這個是有公義性的立法院來知道這個行程的過程裡面來講的話就像蕙蜜你剛剛提到的那確實也是讓一部法律可以這樣衝動更加完善這個確實有它的一個公義那不要讓他們造成說他們當事者的學者說我在研討會過程裡面"},{"start":7177.032,"end":7200.787,"text":"我的口氣啊 或者什麼什麼 這些人不想讓人家知道的可是他的專業的見解這個部分我相信應該他也不會有什麼 除非啦 他真的有跟你們講這部分我就不要讓他知道了有這樣的學者也好奇怪 應該也不至於啊所以是不是 今天司法院也沒抗拒 沒必要"},{"start":7202.192,"end":7225.56,"text":"你添太多也沒意思他在研討會叫來 大家都是頂尖的學者專家你不可以叫人家可能叫阿薩布魯的學者來親自講講的 不可能他的專業的見解 他也一定是想讓別人去做一個分享那那個過程裡面 除非我難道你們真的都有足智嗎應該不至於到足智吧"},{"start":7227.261,"end":7248.418,"text":"我在罵黃國昌我在罵鍾佳斌他給我罵你們不會去記錄這個吧那個應該是批批批批批批掉就好了那其他的很專業的東西很專業的東西來提供一下我倒覺得這個有公義性我真的這樣覺得你們再考慮一下好不好有需要我們現在機關代碼完回應嗎來機關代碼忽免簡單簡單幾句"},{"start":7254.144,"end":7268.233,"text":"就指教這個我們剛剛已經說了那個本院會回去研議的是好那麼我們現在給代表充分的時間做意見交換還有這準備工作我們休息十分鐘好謝謝"},{"start":7995.486,"end":7998.727,"text":"好 我們繼續開會那我們大體討論已經進行了三輪那我們開始進行逐條討論逐條討論 來那麼在這裡先跟委員做個報告"},{"start":8009.54,"end":8035.502,"text":"我們那個稅審法因為剛剛有委員表達有些條文希望能夠更充分的討論所以那些條文我們就先不處理我們先就其他的條文進行所以我們先從第一條來那預調剛剛有委員提出的部分我們就先暫時跳過其中包括第11條到第16條以及第25條的部分好 那現在進行名稱"},{"start":8038.224,"end":8057.177,"text":"還不能決議可以討論啊關於名稱有沒有不同意見沒有那因為我們委員人數未達那我們先讓委員表示意見那名稱的部分在場委員沒有其他意見但是等人數到期我們再處理好來了"},{"start":8065.575,"end":8083.581,"text":"好跟委員報告我們目前進行逐條討論那就剛剛有委員提出有些需要進一步討論的條文我們就先暫不進行逐條的處理我們先處理其他的條文那這裡面特別提到11條到第16條以及第25條我們就先暫不處理來委員請"},{"start":8088.172,"end":8106.554,"text":"那個不好意思喔 主席那個可不可以就清楚的說這幾個條文今天不處理因為你講暫不處理我怕第二輪回來你又要處理是不是可以我現在就要求這些關於我剛剛所提到通則性核心的條文現在就直接先說就都保留"},{"start":8108.043,"end":8133.576,"text":"那個跟委員說明因為在場委員現在的人數跟剛剛在大體討論的時候有明顯的差別那容我在人數多一點的時候再徵詢委員會意見好不好那因為目前的人數我們可以對一些比較程序上的條文比較之前委員沒有太多意見的部分我們可以先進行主條討論好不好那我們剛剛是詢問名稱的部分請問委員會有沒有不同意見或其他意見"},{"start":8135.407,"end":8153.529,"text":"那如果沒有的話,那我們就照司法院提案通過好,那麼接下來進行第一條我們現在不用宣讀了嗎?宣讀夠了好,第一條的條文"},{"start":8157.403,"end":8163.765,"text":"第一條條文就是主旨那麼請問委員會對第一條條文的內容請發表意見來請黃委員你們第一條寫說未促進程序經濟徹底妥適專業解決稅務爭議以有效保障納稅者權利"},{"start":8178.041,"end":8205.052,"text":"並維護依法及公民科學原則特制定本法我現在的第一個問題是程序經濟的這個詞對一般有在處理訴訟法的學術研究者或是對一般的學生來講不會太陌生但是我真的在法條看到這樣子的名詞有任何其他的法律用這四個字嗎"},{"start":8207.669,"end":8223.038,"text":"你們有沒有找過啊你要不要現在拿你的手機查一下全國法規資料庫打程序經濟四個字下去看有哪一個全中華民國有哪一個法律用的這個詞"},{"start":8237.13,"end":8259.396,"text":"你如果要把迅速這個價值因為我們在一般裁判的時候正確迅速是兩個非常重要的價值這兩個價值是處於背反分離的關係我想這個念訴訟法的人大家都有這個基本的概念你要專業要妥適這個形容詞都沒有問題"},{"start":8260.779,"end":8285.797,"text":"你如果第一條你願意把迅速這個事情放成是整個立法上面的價值的話不要用一個新的詞從來沒有出現過的詞因為你用全國法規資料庫check你會發現我的問題你得出來的答案是我國現行法有用程序經濟這四個詞的法律案數目是零zero從來沒有用過"},{"start":8287.485,"end":8311.245,"text":"所以第一條我是不是建議為迅速徹底妥適專業解決稅務事件以有效保障納稅者權益就促進輸送經濟你就直接把它改成為了迅速把迅速這兩個字把它給加進去嘛來請為迅速徹底妥適專業解決稅務爭議"},{"start":8314.477,"end":8320.681,"text":"這四個形容詞或四個價值你要怎麼排我沒意見啦因為法條寫成這個樣子我老實講沒有看過啦好 謝謝委員這個部分我們同意"},{"start":8341.946,"end":8356.392,"text":"所以文字上怎麼表達 有沒有一個修正意見不妥適 迅速 徹底 專業 解決稅務爭議以有效保障納稅者權益並維護依法及公平課稅原則特制定本法 以上"},{"start":8358.639,"end":8385.904,"text":"順序是一妥適來來請莊委員我是覺得會不會回答的比較快黃國昌委員的意思我聽得懂但是呢因為這個確實是一般在談民事訴訟的話我們都會講訴訟經濟那因為可是本法涉及到的就是比較屬於行政程序法我不知道在行政程序法裡面是不是有揭示一個大原則叫程序經濟這我不知道"},{"start":8386.928,"end":8387.817,"text":"會不會是你們是因為這樣而來"},{"start":8390.643,"end":8417.679,"text":"包括我不知道 我說民事訴訟一般我們在講訴訟當中在講訴訟經濟這沒有錯嘛這個就變成說賦予給這個對給一個訴訟制度給老百姓就感覺上說這個設計會比較溫暖一點比較人性一點那可是呢那個是在講不管是在行民事訴訟或者刑事訴訟有這樣的一個訴訟經濟的概念那你們既然去提到"},{"start":8418.599,"end":8442.556,"text":"放到條文裡面去講程序經濟這個就真的又扯到剛我們會要求說學者專家在這個意見形成的過程裡面有沒有特別的看法我比較擔心的是說因為我行政程序的部分著墨就比較沒有那麼多沒有那麼深在行政程序的部分會不會有揭示一個概念就是程序經濟我不知道也很難聽到這個"},{"start":8444.858,"end":8464.481,"text":"好,跟委員說明,根據民國九十五年七月十八號的四字第六一五號大法官的解釋當中的理由書,它就是針對了所謂的納稅一五人上為了維護稅務安定的合理手段,以調合基增正確,基增了程序經濟效能"},{"start":8465.201,"end":8493.023,"text":"計租稅安定之原則大概出現在4-615號當中但是的確目前我們沒有在其他的法律條文當中看到類似的用詞不過呢的確在大法官針對相關的這個納稅義務人的這些事件事項當中的確有用到了所謂的程序經濟效能計租稅安定之原則來 那麼是不是請委員們還有機關代表要不要再做一些深論或討論"},{"start":8508.802,"end":8520.526,"text":"像主席還有委員報告因為這一次那個修法有一個那個重點就是希望說那個稅務的紛爭可以整個徹底的一次解決那也當然就是說在這樣子的"},{"start":8522.901,"end":8548.206,"text":"目的底下呢就是它有一個功能就是要促進那個程序經濟那黃委員所那個指教的呢我想黃委員也同意說我們確實有這樣子一個立法目的那為了就是那個用語上的那個精簡就是把這個部分就是不要在這裡再重複寫促進程序經濟就直接用迅速這樣子來那個用文字說明我想那個目的已經可以達到了"},{"start":8549.321,"end":8574.094,"text":"以上所以文字上是不是可以有一個文字給主席這邊那我待會再來進行宣讀侯義煌委員的文字我還是因為沒有口頭口述為妥適第一個詞是妥適第二個詞是什麼為妥適頓號然後呢迅速然後再來是徹底然後專業解決稅務爭議是這樣嗎那就沒有促進這兩個字囉為了"},{"start":8578.12,"end":8604.048,"text":"未妥適迅速徹底專業解決稅務爭議以有效保障納稅者權利並維護依法及公平課稅原則特制定本法OK好請委員會意見做文字座如上的修正是否同意好同意好那我們就修正後通過好"},{"start":8605.916,"end":8631.116,"text":"那立法說明的部分因為立法後面還是有出現未促進程序經濟的這些用詞那麼要一併這可以保留啦請問委員會那如果我們立法說明的程序經濟他讓大家理解那個迅速的目的用詞大概也跟大法官4.615是一樣的用詞那就保留囉我看這條玻璃好啊"},{"start":8632.005,"end":8648.811,"text":"說明喔我看連這個條文的部分都不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不不"},{"start":8659.634,"end":8670.789,"text":"他倒也倒不是在講說迅速這樣子而已啦你說訴訟在講經濟他到底講的也不是迅速啊迅速只是內涵的其中之一啊"},{"start":8674.329,"end":8702.141,"text":"先保留一下 再修一下這台也不安逸啊 讓你們再稍微修一下這樣搞不好你們原來的是提出來都可以把我們說服也不一定啊因為程序經濟的確理解上它這裡迅速是更為廣闊啦它是說不是只求迅速它是有效率的概念程序經濟是有效率的概念那這個經濟表示CP值很高的意思"},{"start":8702.881,"end":8726.726,"text":"好 那麼我們本條先暫保留好不好 暫保留那我們再讓司法院再思考一下參酌4-615號的解釋的意涵跟本法條的目的內容上如何讓民眾可以一讀即懂但是又不會產生這個太過於簡化的理解好 那麼第二條的部分 那麼請我們進入第二條的主條 那請委員會委員表示意見來 請黃委員"},{"start":8731.708,"end":8754.546,"text":"因為我先確定一下基本上我們不涉及到組織法的事情對吧我們不涉及到組織法的事情第二個如果不涉及到組織法的事情他基本上在處理的就是由行政法院來加以管轄對吧"},{"start":8760.518,"end":8780.957,"text":"那我現在的問題是說你們那個第一項你們那個稅務行政事件的定義我沒意見那我現在開始有問題的是在第二項你們這個相牽連的行政訴訟事件你們是怎麼解釋的"},{"start":8784.259,"end":8809.573,"text":"什麼叫做相牽連的行政訴訟事件那第二個就這個相牽連的行政訴訟事件合併審理的時候他審理的基本原則是全部按照這個法嗎請注意喔我們現在只有在處理程序法的問題喔程序法的問題是在一個訴訟程序當中合併審理的其他案件"},{"start":8810.56,"end":8815.651,"text":"他原則上就會按照同一套審理原則來加以處理你們說了這個事情"},{"start":8820.902,"end":8846.547,"text":"我們之所以要定稅務行政事件審理法是本與稅務行政事件本身的特殊性所以有別於一般行政訴訟的程序法例做特別規定的程序法例那我現在的問題來了你要發揮合併審判的機能我可以理解但在審理的原則上被合併進來的其他行政訴訟"},{"start":8847.947,"end":8875.703,"text":"它審理的基本原則是不是按照你們稅務行政事件的審理法這個是我的問題如果是的話那如果其他的行政訴訟事件它不具備稅務行政事件本身的特性你要求它依照稅務行政事件你們本身特性所設計出來有別於行政訴訟的程序法例來加以審理它的正當化的基礎在哪裡"},{"start":8877.959,"end":8903.559,"text":"這個要說明清楚喔是稅務行政事件審理法要發揮合併審判的機能這個我同意這個沒有問題那問題是什麼問題是你在進行訴訟法理的時候就訴訟法理的適用是區別的適用交錯的適用還是統一的適用這個稅務行政事件審理法這件事情要講清楚"},{"start":8906.298,"end":8918.144,"text":"這個我就回到我這個Part 1的問題我為什麼跟你們一直要委員會的會議記錄如果連我都看不懂你覺得有多少人看得懂經理代表請回應"},{"start":8925.074,"end":8940.678,"text":"報告委員我們的第二項是把鄉遷聯的案件第二項是指與前項事件鄉遷聯鄉遷聯的行政訴訟事件然後讓他能夠合併整理那其實本來就是為了訴訟經濟的考量那什麼叫做鄉遷聯呢大概我們"},{"start":8947.641,"end":8974.741,"text":"標準大概就是說輸送標的跟第一就是跟稅務行政事件第一項事件的標的或者是他的攻擊方法有牽連關係而且事實證據資料可以互相利用的話那我們讓他合併一起起訴那一起審理那如果合併的這一部分他不具有稅務事件的特質"},{"start":8975.822,"end":8990.245,"text":"不屬於稅務事件,那只是程序上一起處理而已合併在一個案件裡面來處理但是他的程序應該還是要回歸到行政訴訟法的適用好,那我問題來了,你要把它寫清楚嗎?還是你認為這是解釋上的必然?"},{"start":9002.657,"end":9028.016,"text":"你要把它寫清楚嗎?還是你認為這是解釋上的必然?請說明如果委員認為有疑義的話其實我們或許可以在立法理由說明得更清楚然後避免適用上的疑義那你們所寫得更清楚是否有文字上的表達?"},{"start":9030.393,"end":9058.52,"text":"他就用不同的程序法例啦我再講的簡單一點啦在同一個訴訟程序當中針對合併的訴訟訴訟因為訴訟事件本身的性質不同依革該訴訟事件本身的特性各自適用其相應的程序法例我這樣的說明應該是你們這個立法的意義是意旨嘛如果這個是你們立法的意旨的話你們一定要做補充"},{"start":9059.895,"end":9088.817,"text":"那要不然的話以後一定會產生爭議好請廳長說明我們等一會提供文字好嗎我們在立法理由裡面把它說明清楚好那麼這這個部分條文部分我們可以在立法理由當中進行補充那麼第二條的部分我們就等候機關代表進行文字上的研擬那我們跟第一條一樣先暫時保留我們現在看第三條"},{"start":9092.108,"end":9109.918,"text":"好 第三條文字內容相對簡短 請問委員會對於第三條的內容沒有意見好 請問如果沒有意見的話 我們第三條照司法院提案通過好 接下來我們看第四條"},{"start":9112.044,"end":9136.657,"text":"來第四條請表達你們那個第四條就有關於當事人能力的界定跟現在行政訴訟法裡面就當事人能力的界定一樣的地方就不要複述差別到底在哪裡我的意思是說什麼樣的東西在你們的概念裡有當事人能力但是他卻不在行政訴訟法被認為有當事人能力的射程範圍內"},{"start":9138.12,"end":9143.33,"text":"你一定要有這個東西這個法條的規範才有實意那個東西是什麼"},{"start":9145.495,"end":9174.855,"text":"各位委員報告因為當事人能力一般大概就是自然人法人絕對是沒有問題那行政訴訟法有特別規定就是中央地方機關也有當事人能力那在這裡特別在第一項認為說依照租稅法享有權利負擔義務就有當事人能力是因為在一些所得稅法的規定他並不以尤其是外國公司他可能在台灣他只有有固定的營業場所而已那因為在稅法上有很多等一下先停一下"},{"start":9175.696,"end":9178.845,"text":"那外國公司在行政訴訟上沒有當事人的能力嗎有啊"},{"start":9185.685,"end":9213.405,"text":"我們是法律人 針對法律問題討論啦我剛剛問題很清楚啦你把它重新我們剛剛一開始在廣泛討論已經建立了這個特別法的規範原則嘛就是行政訴訟法的規定沒有辦法完全適用到稅務行政案件當中有特別規定必要者才有必要在這邊做特別規定嘛所以我剛剛的問題就是你的腦袋裡面所想的到底什麼東西"},{"start":9214.915,"end":9242.743,"text":"在稅務行政案件當中有當事人能力但是卻在目前的行政訴訟法的當事人能力設成範圍所不及的他可能就是外國公司可是他並沒有在台灣經過允許設立然後他可能只是在台灣設有一個固定的營業常識是啊 那個不就非法人團體嗎行政訴訟法第22條自然的法人中央地方機關非法人團體有當事人能力啊"},{"start":9247.709,"end":9275.437,"text":"非法人團體他還是有一些像他要有固定的組織所以我就問你請你回去查我們實務上的見解好不好外國公司之前還有認許制度的沒有認許的話依照最高法院的判例他還是非法人團體拜託這是基本的訴訟法的規定這基本訴訟法的概念外國公司不是非法人團體你確定你要在立法院講這種話嗎"},{"start":9278.168,"end":9282.21,"text":"有修過訴訟法的法律系的學生會校委你確定嗎好那我們第四條的部分請機關代表就剛剛委員所詢問的部分做個釐清那我們接下來進行第五條來第五條主條請來黃委員"},{"start":9306.277,"end":9321.529,"text":"不好意思喔 第五條我就徹底看不懂啊經訴願程序的稅務行政訴訟以原處分機關為被告那基本上面你現在是在處理有關於當事人事格的問題嗎沒有錯吧"},{"start":9324.502,"end":9341.048,"text":"你在處理當事人 那你的這個當事人資格的界定應該就是跟你的訴訟標的有關係嘛如果你做這樣子的界定的話 代表的是說你在客觀上面所擇定的訴訟標的是原來的課稅處分"},{"start":9343.266,"end":9358.875,"text":"所以你才會在當事人事格的選擇上面選擇是以原處分機關來當作被告我的想法應該是沒有錯吧那現在下一個實際上面的問題是說"},{"start":9369.249,"end":9384.473,"text":"你在這邊你明明其實要處理的是訴訟標的問題那為什麼在這邊會用被告事格的方式的規範形式來呈現我簡單的這樣講在訴訟法裡面我們第一步是先確定訴訟標的是什麼"},{"start":9393.455,"end":9417.747,"text":"訴訟標的確定完了以後你大概就可以確定就該訴訟標的誰有處分權誰就有訴訟實施權當事人事格的概念是僅僅環扣的訴訟標的來加以界定的那你在這邊你為什麼不單刀直入的就去處理說我要界定的訴訟標的到底是什麼怎麼會繞一個彎"},{"start":9421.662,"end":9439.914,"text":"是啊所以我就說我看你們這個法庭我看得很痛苦嘛突然在第四條的時候出現一個當事人事格的規定第二個但書的部分但訴願決定第一次侵害第三人之權利或法律上利益以訴願決定機關為被告那"},{"start":9444.415,"end":9461.745,"text":"這個單書等一下你好好解釋一下我現在抽象起來就變成了是有一個原行政處分可能是個課稅處分接下來又有個訴願決定你的訴訟標的是原處分加訴願決定還是只有訴願決定在單書的情況那如果是原處分加訴願決定的話"},{"start":9472.281,"end":9495.105,"text":"那被告冊的當事人事格是誰?那什麼叫做第一次侵害?有第二次侵害嗎?有第三次侵害嗎?這個第一次侵害的概念到底是什麼?我真的必須要老實跟你們講,我完全看不懂。是不是給你們好好的說明一下,我知道行政處分有第三人效力,行政處分有第三人效力so what?"},{"start":9495.509,"end":9516.906,"text":"在什麼樣的情況之下訴願決定所產生的第三人效力侵害到第三人那你如果侵害到第三人以該訴願決定來當作訴訟標的的時候那當然就被告事格我們會做一些選擇但我現在的問題是在於說那是原處分的"},{"start":9518.375,"end":9542.014,"text":"原處分發生效力的相對人跟侵害到第三人的時候的相對人他們兩個是固有必要共同被告嗎就是第五條到底在講什麼是不是可以再進一步講得更清楚一點好 經過代表陳廷長請說明第五條其實他是在界定就是說我們的"},{"start":9543.802,"end":9562.977,"text":"訴訟的被告和適當的當事人到底是誰那當然就是要經過訴願程序的以原處分機關為被告那這是剛才委員已經明確的說明那我們但書規範的情形是在講說在第三人效力處分那尤其是在競爭者訴訟"},{"start":9565.098,"end":9581.105,"text":"就是說今天如果原處分是原來是對一個第三人有利益的有利益的訴訟有利益的一個結果那結果這個處分的相對人一定是不服嘛"},{"start":9581.465,"end":9605.529,"text":"因為第三人取得這個利益所以他就一定會打訴願嘛結果訴願就認為說那你訴願有道理我就去撤銷了原處分那所以其實就是第一次去侵害到原來原處分對這個第三人有利益的這樣一個情形那所以這個就叫做訴願決定第一次侵害到第三人的這個法律"},{"start":9606.05,"end":9617.149,"text":"權力或法律上利益,因此這個時候因為是訴願決定的結果侵害到原來這個第三人,所以在這個情形之下是可以以訴願機關為被告的"},{"start":9622.309,"end":9646.946,"text":"你以後講一個比較具體的例子好不好那你的訴願決定也有可能那個訴願決定未必是全勝全敗的問題啊也有互有勝敗的問題啊那我如果就原處分訴願決定機關只撤銷一部的話那你剛剛所講的本來的相對人跟被涉及到的第三人他們兩個各自有不爽啊一人贏一半啊"},{"start":9647.97,"end":9672.576,"text":"那這個時候你的被告是誰 你的被告是原處分機關再加上素驗機關嗎所以我就說你拿具體的例子出來講因為你剛抽象的把立法理由再用更抽象的文字再講一次對整個問題的釐清毫無幫助講具體的例子啦 這樣子我們比較好討論"},{"start":9674.235,"end":9683.928,"text":"那所謂我剛才舉的歷史叫做競爭者訴訟就是如果今天有一個職缺大家都在搶 是只有一個這個不是稅務訴訟啊講稅務訴訟的案子好我們不好"},{"start":9688.922,"end":9710.752,"text":"我們現在在討論稅務行政事件啊那我們講租稅優惠好了就是說原來租稅優惠給了某家公司那就會造成另外一家B公司給了A公司那就會造成B公司相對的一個不利益那所以B公司就會不服啊那B公司不服因為它是利害公司"},{"start":9712.393,"end":9739.956,"text":"不好意思我先確認一下給一個特定的公司租稅優惠你們現在在界定上說那個租稅優惠的行政處分他擴及的效力是在同行的競爭全部都被那一個行政處分的效力會因此讓他們取得在訴訟上面的資格地位我第一次聽到這個說你確定嗎你真的確定嗎"},{"start":9745.305,"end":9769.674,"text":"我們現在只是試圖舉一個例子來說明所以我為什麼一直跟你們要委員會嘛你腦袋裡面到底在講什麼例子這個例子不是現在在這邊做立法說明這個例子是你們法條頒到這裡以前就應該要先想清楚的我為什麼一直跟你們要委員會的討論因為我根本看不懂你們寫的條文"},{"start":9772.95,"end":9781.945,"text":"那你要來這邊舉例子就請你舉世界的例子當初委員會的委員們在討論這個條文他腦袋想的到底是什麼例子嗎這個是個好問題喔"},{"start":9787.031,"end":9810.394,"text":"你像譬如說有競爭那你說國家或者經濟部給A公司給他租稅的一個優惠那相對於我們這幾家來講的話會變成一個不公平的競爭那是不是這個時候你這個行政處分出來以後我們都變成一個四個的當事人"},{"start":9812.406,"end":9839.361,"text":"我們是不是因為這個行政處分反而我們這一些人都可以當原告之事格會不會黃國昌的問題是這個啦我的意思就是說這確實涉及到當事人事格的問題會不會這個例子這個條文不是在講這一些你會發生的效果就可怕譬如說啦我現在給綠聯的業者很強的租稅優惠"},{"start":9842.783,"end":9866.677,"text":"這個租稅優惠的行政處分他往外擴及的所謂的法律上權利或利益他的設成範圍有多我如果是民營的火力發電廠業者咧為什麼他有為什麼我沒有這個時候民營的火力發電廠業者可以主張他法律上的利益遭受到影響對我來講這種解釋是殊難想像所以我才剛剛一直問他說你確定委員會在寫這個條文的時候講的是這個例子嗎確定嗎"},{"start":9878.154,"end":9884.867,"text":"第三人的權利跟法律上的利益被侵害掉現在莊委員再來翁委員好不好那莊委員請繼續"},{"start":9890.39,"end":9919.077,"text":"例子好像 廷長你確定是這樣的一個概念嗎我當然知道說你這個整個疏忍決定疏忍決定完以後你會波及到無辜的第三者的利益法律上的權利受到損害那這一些呢 這個第三人呢他就可以以這樣的一個疏忍決定機關來提起被告 你的意思是這樣子嗎"},{"start":9920.626,"end":9941.469,"text":"好請說明那再來翁委員請容我說明一下我可不可以先舉一般行政訴訟例子我們先撇開稅務的例子來講像這種就是說如果今天A他請求建築機關合法他建造那結果機關准了但是這個可能建造"},{"start":9942.751,"end":9953.148,"text":"建築基地的範圍其實是侵害到B的土地是一個違法的處分那所以因為這個處分就影響了B的法律上權利利物"},{"start":9954.581,"end":9978.431,"text":"那個黃委員 因為後面還有翁委員我們讓鄉庭長先講完再翁委員對 就會因為可能會有越界建築蓋到B的土地上面所以B這個時候他的法律或者是權力關係就會受到侵害所以他就可以去提訴願去爭執這個原處分違法那結果 那原處分"},{"start":9979.971,"end":9995.096,"text":"樹院機關就認為說如果認為說你主張的有道理我就去撤銷了你的這個建築許可那這個時候呢那這個時候撤銷了建築許可因為本來提樹院的是B啊"},{"start":9996.648,"end":10019.547,"text":"那這個時候A他認為說你這個訴願決定撤銷了我的建築許可那他不服啊所以他是第一次侵害他的權這個訴願決定是第一次侵害他的權因為原處分本來準嘛但是訴願決定現在就是去撤銷原來有利他的處分嘛所以他是第一次受到侵害那所以這個時候那他就可以以訴願機關"},{"start":10021.668,"end":10048.531,"text":"為被告那我們在講的一般行政訴訟大概講的是這種的情形那至於在講到稅務案件等一下 稅務案件來啦 財政部家你們看看你們都有參與討論的其實我本來就在請財政部表示意見因為翁委員這邊我先問一下 翁委員是不是要讓財政部也來先讓翁委員講好不好因為他剛剛已經舉手了那主席這邊再接續"},{"start":10049.747,"end":10070.3,"text":"是我覺得剛剛廷長舉的那個例子其實也不太適合因為如果說是第三人所提起的這個所提起的訴願然後訴願委員會撤銷了這個第三人所提起的這個訴願決定撤銷了原處分對撤銷了原處分機關所做的處分決定那一般來說的話就是會讓原處分機關會重審"},{"start":10081.254,"end":10100.779,"text":"因為他撤銷了他會撤銷原處分並發回原處分機關再再行審理一般來說都是這樣所以原處分機關他還會再做出一個處分那這個做出的處分就是所謂的原來當事人這個原來當事人的那個處分"},{"start":10103.437,"end":10123.409,"text":"但是原來當事人在訴願機關做他的訴願決定去撤原處分的時候這個時候他認為他的權利就被侵害了那如果他要進而打行政訴訟的話那他當然就是以訴願機關為被告好 主席這邊是不是整理一下因為的確聽長這邊是就實務的有稅務訴訟的案例"},{"start":10131.328,"end":10154.823,"text":"本席這邊也是有一個具體案例過去才處理過那對照就是我們在場的財政部的複稅署那麼涉及到因為我怕說講具體的案例會陷入案例延期的討論但是我就也很謹慎考慮要不要請財政部可不可以提供相關的例證那我這裡既然大家關切我也稍微舉一個那個例子很具體"},{"start":10155.723,"end":10170.988,"text":"它是一個風電的公司在我們外海設置了一個風機這個風機的資金是來自於一個國際的資金的一個私募資金可能是韓國的那因為他們這個跟"},{"start":10173.34,"end":10201.932,"text":"設置風機簽了約那麼要繳印花稅但是這個印花稅呢在根據某種條件之下有外資投資是可以免除的稅率可以另外算所以到底這家公司在外海所投資的風機他們簽了約地方政府要對它刻意印花稅有沒有辦法適用是外國資金來台投資的相關優惠你看看涉及到多少地方涉及到印花稅的"},{"start":10202.952,"end":10226.152,"text":"地方政府涉及到風機的一個乙方的公司涉及到這個乙方公司的資金來源涉及到這個資金來源視我為外資可以投資台灣可以適用租稅優惠這個時候 負稅署就在那邊進行跟彰化縣政府 對不起不要講具體 不小心講地方政府的一些討論"},{"start":10227.933,"end":10244.052,"text":"提起業者提起訴願之後有一個訴願的處分那這個處分呢還是有人不服那就會提起要進行訴訟那這個訴訟的時候到底可能的這個被告會是誰是處分的訴願處分機關還是原來"},{"start":10248.412,"end":10271.891,"text":"稅的客政機關那這裡面就會有一些複雜的問題那我是很謹慎的想要了解說如果有適切的實例個案但是又怕講出來我剛剛不小心說出來不過風氣大部分都在髒話外海這個沒什麼好討論的啦那這種情況之下怎麼樣可以讓我們委員會理解第五條的它的設置的規則的路徑可能"},{"start":10274.958,"end":10300.099,"text":"對象會是誰因為剛剛廳長很努力的想要用一個舉例要說明但是好像這樣的例證呢不能讓我們委員會了解跟第五條的設計那還是財政部這邊你們有適切的個案可以提供來作為第五條的試模擬一番但是我要很小心的不要陷入個案沿襲啦因為畢竟我們不是在討論個案來 部長 次長可不可以分享一下"},{"start":10300.639,"end":10319.35,"text":"謝謝各位人的詢問基本上我們通常稅捐基金機關作成的行政處分基本上都是對當事人不利就一般來講 對當事人不利所以如果說當然這當事人不服他可以提起行政訴訟"},{"start":10320.37,"end":10344.732,"text":"那所以前面的這個第五條的這個原來的那個文藝就是這樣所以原處分機關為被告這一類的案件到了我們訴願機關來講的話我們也只會就原處分做處理也就是當事人來做處理當事人做處理如果我們撤銷了這個當事人的這個處分也是只有當事人獲得利益一般來講"},{"start":10346.533,"end":10375.633,"text":"通常不會有侵害第三人權利或他的利益的情形那剛才鍾委員講的那個案例我覺得那個可能也是要看他我是不太清楚那個案例實際上的這個當事人是誰是像剛才舉的風機在國際資金提供問題是不管是這個資金來源是什麼因為納稅的課徵就是針對你簽訂的契約來課徵所以納稅一人就是那個簽訂契約的一方"},{"start":10376.514,"end":10380.924,"text":"那至於你的資金來源是什麼其實在我們科學上面是不究這件事情的"},{"start":10381.59,"end":10410.998,"text":"所以我是不太清楚那個案例到底是怎麼回事他有不服當然他繼續訴訟訴訟機關就是就是那個就是如果剛剛講的彰化縣政府那就是彰化縣政府那也沒有問題所以是因為我們剛才我也詢問了一下我們同仁基本上像我自己現在是訴院委員訴院會的主任委員我也沒有看過在我們訴院決定的時候會有這個對侵害第三人權利或法律上利益的這種案例以上報告"},{"start":10412.11,"end":10427.124,"text":"好 那麼黃委員請我問財政部一個比較嚴肅的問題當初他們不是這個法案延期的時候要找你們的人去嗎你們參與的時候你們第五條有發表意見嗎"},{"start":10433.94,"end":10449.849,"text":"我們參與的同仁說他們沒有發表意見那你們為什麼沒有發表意見是你們去參與的這個第五條以看其知非常明瞭適用心中毫無掛礙所以沒有發表意見還是完全看不懂所以沒有發表意見"},{"start":10450.999,"end":10472.753,"text":"因為我是不太清楚但是我覺得具體來看應該是說我們覺得這種案例不會發生如果不會發生的話你們沒有跟司法院講說這個案子不會發生嗎我是不知道司法院的想法是什麼但是在我們稅務事件的處理上面如果連你都不知道"},{"start":10473.683,"end":10497.659,"text":"如果連你都不知道,您在稅的領域裡面我相信是德高望重、經驗豐富、身輕百戰如果連您都不知道,那你覺得全中華民國有幾個人會知道這已經不是說什麼本委員會的委員理解不理解的問題現在是全中華民國到底有幾個人理解這個條文到底在寫什麼東西要適用到什麼範圍"},{"start":10500.728,"end":10525.721,"text":"好 那麼司法院機關代表要不要說明來 請 副秘書長謝謝大家關心就是說會提出這個但書就是在制度上它確實是會有存在就是有需要的這個設計那可能我們在現在就是說提供的說明可能還沒有辦法就是讓委員就是這麼充分了解我們是不是事後我們再用那個書面然後把詳細的案例"},{"start":10527.429,"end":10538.499,"text":"不是啦 我剛剛就強調了你說讓委員不是這麼充分的了解連坐在你旁邊那個身輕擺一站的人都看不懂了那好不好 那個"},{"start":10539.861,"end":10561.733,"text":"跟委員說明,其實我過去舉的那個案例,因為就我這樣出錢來看,是有一點可能的只是那個案例呢,可能財政部、複稅署相關接觸這個案例的同仁不在場那我也未便把這個案例拿來做一個延期的討論但是畢竟委員會委員所提出來的是蠻有道理的"},{"start":10562.193,"end":10567.716,"text":"那到底這個在於邏輯上窮盡它的可能發生的狀況在法條上予以規範這當然本來立法者本來就要對未來有可能發生但目前實務上尚未發生的叫預作準備本來立法就要做這樣的一個邏輯性上的規範但是如果說已經實務上有類似的案例能夠讓委員會更理解"},{"start":10585.505,"end":10604.925,"text":"真的這個不只是邏輯上推論的可能實務上也曾發生那由於在場的列席機關代表未必都了解這個發生的案例是在什麼地方要存在所以我是覺得這個案子呢是不是我們先暫保留那如果說你們可以這個機關代表可以找到"},{"start":10606.647,"end":10634.804,"text":"這個立法之前有類似的案例有遭逢到第五條的狀況那或許委員會就可能更清楚的明瞭說不定待會我也可以私下把那個案例呢提供給司法院跟負稅財政部我們拿來比對一下因為那個涉及的人員相當多因為呢印花稅免了但是資金提供者可能就面對到他要不要去承擔其他的資金調度的其他的"},{"start":10635.444,"end":10650.62,"text":"不立處分這個都是有可能在實際案例上遇到的只是因為限於我們委員會討論的時間可能未必在這裡做太多深入的個案研析如果有適切的例子我想本案呢本條我們先暫保留那如果有適切的我們再拉回來討論好那來請公委員"},{"start":10654.235,"end":10670.766,"text":"是我在這裡還是要提醒那個司法院喔就是因為你們現在第五條的但書的設計他的確就是破壞了現在整個行政訴訟訴願的階制度就但書的這個部分也說決定機關為被告這現在有其他的立法例嗎"},{"start":10672.842,"end":10692.991,"text":"這就是目前行政訴訟的限制 就是這麼運作的好 來莊委員不過這個好像都沒講清楚啦第二條 你就把它看說你如果說一個行政處分 你經過了訴願程序有經過訴願程序的 你原處分機關來當被告 這合理嗎"},{"start":10694.131,"end":10702.375,"text":"這更合理嘛 就是說你作出一個行政處分後 要有所完結好 原處分機關當被告但是你說這個訴願決定這個"},{"start":10708.226,"end":10724.258,"text":"原機關做出一個行政處分出來以後我不服我來提取訴願然後我這個訴願假設我是向行政院你各部會我就直接向行政院那他做出一個處分那行政院你做出這樣的一個訴願決定"},{"start":10726.52,"end":10745.014,"text":"不然沒我的事 你是那個當事人不服他提起訴願而已啊你做出來了親愛到我們這些第三人的法律上的權利或者法律上的利益那這些抽象的條文裡面都可以想像 都可以想像可是具體的個案裡面我確實是比較 廁長你跟我說不能想像"},{"start":10748.636,"end":10770.7,"text":"是 你的意思就不能想像嘛你都沒辦法去想像那你說叫廳長來舉一個這個稅務行政上裡面的可能有一點點我不知道會不會我不知道你的專長在哪一個部分是不是稅務還是哪一部分那似乎我們在審一個我們不能舉一個例子出來的條文也好奇怪喔我說實在話應該是這樣你這個要解決這樣的條文的安排的一個設計概念都通啦"},{"start":10778.522,"end":10801.569,"text":"概念就是說你這個設懲裡面只要這個原來的行政指揮官告了無關的你把他撤銷掉反而你這個訴認決定侵害到我們第三人法律上的一個權利的那我們這些假設是當事人適可的話那我以你這個撤銷決定的機關當被告這個也都可以合理而且問題就是說例子舉不出來那我們要解決什麼你想你財政部算多少呢"},{"start":10807.421,"end":10815.526,"text":"你們是罪魁禍首 幾乎都是你們你們全部都拔鵝毛給人民最多不利益的是你們但是這個條文的設計原來司法院提出來這個條文的設計應該是要解決掉說這個財政部 財政部這時候是太空了 都給別人求職把他們撤銷掉 站在比較讓人民有多一個機會可是財政部又認為說"},{"start":10835.216,"end":10855.205,"text":"不會發生這種事情你那個案子也跟稅務行政裡面要含涉進來又不太對我在溯源會是沒有看過我們溯源決定會對於第三人的權益受損"},{"start":10856.127,"end":10881.103,"text":"或者是侵害他的利益目前是沒有這樣的案例其實你這個案子就是在講當事人到底要提起這個訴訟是不是我的問題因為我們沒有對那個人造成損害所以他是不是適格作為你們會 會造成損害只是說這個損害的人他是不是適格去以這個訴認決定機關當被告"},{"start":10884.5,"end":10909.614,"text":"因為我們通常就是一般來講我們都是對原處分機關或者是他的那個原來的當事人來做成訴願決定那訴願決定如果是對當事人有利那就是撤銷嘛送回原處分機關去依照撤銷決定辦理或者是說請原處分機關重圍複查決定或重圍相關的決定但是"},{"start":10910.785,"end":10933.735,"text":"我們通常不會因為這樣說因為我這個對這個當事人有利然後呢對當事人撤銷了然後我會要求做成一個決定說那對這個跟當事人相關的另外一個第三人你必須要去追討他的相關稅賦我們不會做這樣所以你的意思就是說這個第五條的設計本來是對人民一個溫暖的設計是沒有意義的"},{"start":10934.929,"end":10962.386,"text":"不可以想像的一般來講不會對第三人有關係一般不會對第三人有關係你叫施維恩舉例子 施維恩哪舉得出來那我們在審什麼不是 我是想說我們這條到底要解決什麼你那個只是概念上通而已真的嗎那人家如果舉例子出來 財政部舉不出來你們要打屁股咧"},{"start":10963.682,"end":10986.772,"text":"這樣好不好 那個我們看起來我覺得還是請列席機關代表你們比較完整比較好因為現在聽起來呢行政院財政部這邊跟司法人這邊似乎對同一件事情有各有自己經驗上的理解是不是我還是這一條因為也花了相當時間我們先暫保留我們可以看看其他的條文好不好那我們現在進行第六條第六條的條文這也是"},{"start":10995.375,"end":10999.206,"text":"第6條要不要請那個機關代表列席機關代表先請做說明"},{"start":11002.95,"end":11024.659,"text":"跟委員報告第六條規定其實我們是在處理稅法上的多階段行政處分所謂多階段的行政處分也就是稅捐基增機關在做成一個科稅處分前他可能會要根據一些其他機關做成的決定"},{"start":11025.599,"end":11053.979,"text":"以其他機關做成的決定為前提或基礎上然後進而做成他的稅捐上的處分的決定那因為最後做成決定的是稅捐機關當人民不服的時候是告稅捐機關告要撤銷的是稅捐機關做成的這個處分但是事實上法院在審的時候很可能就會牽涉到前階段"},{"start":11055.159,"end":11075.372,"text":"另外機關他先前做成的一個決定所以我們會一併去審那為了要一次解決這一個案件的紛爭因此我們條文就設計說這個時候如果法院認為必要的話你就要命前面的那個機關一起來參加訴訟來輔助這個做成處"},{"start":11081.255,"end":11092.391,"text":"科稅處分的這個稅捐機關一起來參加訴訟把事實釐清那我們舉的例子呢就是像目前像那個傾銷稅反傾銷稅反傾銷稅的情形也就是說如果這個"},{"start":11097.819,"end":11126.338,"text":"因為他的要件是說如果進口貨物他今天零有補貼或者是以低於正常價格輸入侵害中華民國產業的話我們就要科反傾銷稅那但是什麼叫做他到底有沒有受過補貼有沒有以低於正常價格輸入或者是他有沒有損害中華民國產業呢那其實根據"},{"start":11128.159,"end":11139.626,"text":"細部的這些法律的規範他就說有沒有損害我國產業的調查這個主管機關是經濟部那他有沒有"},{"start":11140.683,"end":11157.855,"text":"接受補貼或有沒有傾銷就是低於正常價格輸入這個調查機關是財政部那最後做成反傾銷稅科徵處分是財政部但是因為前面有一段是說他到底有沒有損害我國產業的這個調查是以經濟部認定的"},{"start":11161.677,"end":11182.161,"text":"做成的認定決定為基礎那所以如果事後針對這個反傾銷稅的科稅處分這個決定的處分去打行政訴訟的時候那我們就規定說法官你如果認為必要的時候你就可以把經濟部命經濟部一起來參加這個訴訟來輔助財政部來一起共同來釐清這個事實讓紛爭能夠一次解決 謝謝"},{"start":11192.838,"end":11203.207,"text":"請黃委員詢問幾個層次的問題第一個事情是第六條界定的訴訟標的是科稅處分不包括基礎處分嗎第六條啦我怎麼現在不是在討論第六條嗎"},{"start":11219.534,"end":11248.198,"text":"你不是說多階段行政處分所以我現在就一樣一樣跟你確定那個請你回答問題用麥克風這樣立法院公報才可以有辦法有效的記錄下去第一個事情是訴訟標的是科稅處分不包括基礎處分是嗎是的 是最後做成的科稅處分你命他為參加的時候基本上你要處理的不是科稅處分你要處理的是基礎處分是吧"},{"start":11252.283,"end":11277.897,"text":"那個可能還不構成基礎處分奇怪了 剛剛你前面不是講的那個例子它是多階段行政處分是每一個程序中某一個機關先做成一部分事實的認定或一部分事實的結論然後在最後由於我這樣講好了啦就某一個機關前階段剛剛你用經濟部跟財政部當作例子嘛"},{"start":11278.973,"end":11301.566,"text":"就經濟部所做出來的那個認定你說未必會提升到行政處分的階段嗎但是那個認定的權責在經濟部對不對那如果認定的那個權責在經濟部的話就他前提的法律關係的這件事情事實上面真正有權限的是經濟部嗎"},{"start":11303.527,"end":11322.655,"text":"而不是財政部嗎那就前提事實的部分如果真正有決定權限的是經濟部的話那你們是怎麼把他認定成說他是只用輔助一照參加我的意思是說你在這裡所謂的參加是一般的輔助參加嗎"},{"start":11325.02,"end":11346.125,"text":"是用一般的輔助參加但問題是就前提的法律關係前提的法律關係真正有決定權限的不是經濟部嗎那就前提的法律關係的存否在訴訟行為上面經濟部就前提的法律關係這件事情需要受到財政部所為訴訟行為的拘束嗎"},{"start":11350.623,"end":11377.944,"text":"報告委員因為最後這一種多階段行政處分他只有一個行政處分做成這個行政處分的是財政部那經濟部他只是就這個構成要件中的某一個構成要件他去做了一個認定他去做了一個事實認定而已所以我們還是以因為不符的程序標的是這個原處分所以我們還是會以財政部為被告"},{"start":11381.117,"end":11404.483,"text":"我現在沒有在跟你討論被告事格的問題啦現在我在跟你討論的是這一個人為訴訟參加了以後他在訴訟上面的地位嘛現在你講的是他在訴訟上面的地位是輔助參加嘛如果是輔助參加的話輔助參加人的訴訟行為不可以跟當事人的訴訟行為有任何抵觸嘛"},{"start":11406.511,"end":11428.98,"text":"我們一步一步來這樣才會很清楚啦好那我下一個問題就是說如果前階段事實作為這個多階段行政處分前階段的事實基礎他的權責機關是經濟部的話就前階段的那個處就前階段你不要把它稱為處分就前階段的事實認定就前階段的事實認定在經濟部的權責範圍內就那一個"},{"start":11434.183,"end":11461.846,"text":"爭點 就那個爭點是應該以經濟部的意思為準還是以財政部的意思為準經濟部會受到財政部的意思的拘束好 經濟部會受到財政部的意思的拘束所以在這件事情上面就前階段的那個事實認定在訴訟行為的攻防上面那就是應該參加人聽不是 是當事人聽參加人的不是參加人聽當事人的你聽得懂嗎"},{"start":11466.994,"end":11488.079,"text":"因為你把它借例成是輔助參加的話你如果是輔助參加的話你只是來當忙的啦不要多嘴啊全部以當事人的訴訟行為為基準啊全部以當事人的訴訟行為為基準啊好 那我現在問題來了就前階段的你所謂的那個事實認定"},{"start":11489.895,"end":11503,"text":"那是聽當事人的還是聽參加人的在權責上面你應該要聽經濟部的啊那你怎麼在訴訟法的規範上面去違反了實體法所做的權責劃定"},{"start":11504.997,"end":11527.942,"text":"要聽當事人的這是我的問題報告委員就是因為這些機關協力共同做成的只有一個決定最後做決定的那一個具名的要負責蓋瓜承受在訴訟上雖然他只是輔助參加的地位但是事實上"},{"start":11529.842,"end":11550.293,"text":"如果真的原處分撤銷的話,因為他有參加這個訴訟他也會根據法院的意旨來重新處理他的那一塊而且訴訟上操作的結果,恐怕不會像民事訴訟般輔助參加人沒有什麼地位,因為還是機關性互相協助不要講抽象的東西啦"},{"start":11555.526,"end":11580.703,"text":"在訴訟法的世界裡面每一個訴訟行為它會產生的效果到底是什麼很具體啦就這個行政處分或是就這個訴訟標的前階段的事實認定當事人他如果表達作為被告機關他如果表達說我針對這件事情我不爭執我自認然後輔助參加的人進來說沒有沒有沒有這個事情我有爭執啊聽誰的"},{"start":11583.899,"end":11600.207,"text":"行政訴訟沒有自認的這個制度也沒有那個認諾的這個制度所以訴訟上財政部都還是會在這一塊都會相當尊重經濟部還是以經濟部沒有啦 所以嘛 這個就不是尊重不尊重的問題嘛"},{"start":11604.656,"end":11614.447,"text":"我行政機關主要的被告表示不爭執然後經濟部有不同的看法那我現在就問嘛在你們界定的世界裡面到底是聽誰的是聽誰的黃委員 你是覺得第六條對他安排你覺得不恰當"},{"start":11627.219,"end":11650.883,"text":"沒有啦 我現在在說 他直接把他界定是一個輔助參加嘛但為什麼會叫他來參加叫他來參加就是對於這個訴訟標的前提前提問題這個前提問題有可能是他們所講的事實認定有可能是他們所講的法律適用因為他法條上面是寫就事實認定或法律適用的拘束嘛"},{"start":11652.113,"end":11666.64,"text":"那你叫他來的時候你顯然是什麼你要叫權責機關就訴訟標的以外的前提事實認定或法律適用你要叫他進來你要叫他進來訴訟參加其實最主要的目的是什麼除了提供訴訟一次解決"},{"start":11668.015,"end":11675.12,"text":"他沒有辦法你除了讓他進來以外你讓他進來以外是進來的那個機關有訴訟參與的機會以後你未來不可以再對這個訴訟的結果表示不同的看法"},{"start":11683.166,"end":11710.24,"text":"你不可以對這件事情再產生爭執你透過訴訟參加的方式讓這個進來的機關除了提供訴訟資料給法官審判以外真正後續要發揮更強的效果是他也要受到拘束啦以後不准再吵了啦那我現在的問題是你如果說你在爭執的是他前階段的事實認定或法律適用的話就前面的那個部分"},{"start":11711.075,"end":11738.185,"text":"那應該要在訴訟上面比較有獨立權能針對那一個前階段的事實認定或法律適用的是找來的那個選擇機關而不是那個當事人所以我才說你們這樣子直接把他界定就直接用輔助參加的方式去定位你找來的那個機關在訴訟上面所享有的權能我覺得太粗糙了這是我剛剛在問你們這個問題的時候"},{"start":11744.225,"end":11772.129,"text":"請問代表有沒有要再做說明那個跟委員報告主席在這邊有一份剛剛第一條因為剛剛莊委員是說先暫保留那因為第一條的文字有已經出來了那是不是對就是印給大家好不好好那大家看一下如果說我們在其他條有稍微比較多的討論我們回到第一條的部分糟糕我簽了名了沒關係你們印給大家"},{"start":11774.005,"end":11775.731,"text":"那請在場的節目委員看一下"},{"start":11783.162,"end":11809.202,"text":"你本來在行政訴訟法裡面你說對於訴訟標的第三者或者當事人之間必須合一去做一個確定本來就叫他來訴訟參加嘛然後當事人也可以去申請去參加可是你現在這個稅捐雞爭的你作者行政處分你現在是在講說具體所謂事實的認定或者法律適用的拘束的時候"},{"start":11810.243,"end":11815.608,"text":"這個就變成又一個前提了但是應該命該行政機關輔助依照參加訴訟方國昌你的餘率我也是聽你的餘率是怎麼樣"},{"start":11836.943,"end":11844.087,"text":"我剛才說的就是這樣安排我這樣說你都聽不出來不是你如果聽不出來我要回去檢討因為 開始有時候你說了我聽不出來因為我們本來在講訴訟參加就是說你這個訴訟標例你說對董事人或是第三者你本來就是要 不能有兩期嘛就是說要合一確定嘛你現在這裡是針對說"},{"start":11862.119,"end":11870.229,"text":"稅政機關做成行政處分應受其他機關具體事實所為事實認定或是法律適用的居宿選擇做一間企業選擇你的疑慮到底是什麼"},{"start":11873.84,"end":11897.432,"text":"我從最前面的問題開始問他進來的時候他把他界定成是輔助參加那我的問題是說就那個訴訟標的前提事實認定或法律適用他是另外一個權責機關的權限科稅的譬如說是財政部前提的事實認定或法律適用做決定的是經濟部"},{"start":11898.772,"end":11928.093,"text":"在這個前提的法律問題事實認定或法律適用問題的解決上在訴訟上我認為他要反映實體法上面的權限分配應該要聽經濟部的而不是聽財政部的到這邊你跟得上嗎你如果跟得上我再進一步往下講但你如果只是很單純的把它界定成是一個輔助參加人的話輔助參加人就是來幫忙的從頭到尾全部都聽財政部的"},{"start":11931.468,"end":11959.58,"text":"我再問一個更前提的問題好不好依照現行的行政訴訟法你們現在腦袋在想的東西依照現行的行政訴訟法假設今天沒有這個特別法你們現在所要解決的多階段行政處分的問題依照現行的行政訴訟法可以叫他來參加嗎可以叫他來參加他是得44條行政訴訟法44條"},{"start":11961.987,"end":11975.218,"text":"但是你現在第六條是必要指因必要指因到底因不因就在解釋到底必要或不必要所以你搞了半天那個一樣是法院為職權的裁量"},{"start":11977.351,"end":11998.167,"text":"我這樣講應該沒錯嘛你可能一般的人看說一個得一個應得就是可以 應就是應該但是你在應該前面又放了一個不確定的法律概念必要值應那當你是必要值應的時候你的裁量權就化身在到底必不必要的解釋上嘛所以我"},{"start":12000.687,"end":12008.133,"text":"你們這一條要解決的問題現在在行政訴訟法裡面是不是沒辦法解決提升到這裡反而可以解決這是我的問題"},{"start":12010.751,"end":12025.622,"text":"報告委員是因為行政訴訟法44條如果按照限制的話法院認為有必要的話是得命他參加但是其實我們在研修過程中認為想說一次徹底解決問題所以認為說其實應該要把前面的那個機關一起讓他進來"},{"start":12033.613,"end":12057.768,"text":"不是啊 那你如果這樣子的話 於必要時這四個字你要刪掉嗎對 沒有 我們本來是規定是因啦因為 所以就跟行政訴訟法有所區別我們認為更強烈 應該要讓他一定要進來參加不是啊但是我們又考慮到說但是你最後有要進來的時候那你就是看他必不必要啊但是有一些訴訟的情形 當事人他可能"},{"start":12059.042,"end":12084.15,"text":"不去爭執前面的那一塊他反而是爭執後面也就是做成處分的這個民意機關的這一段的他才是他的爭議的所在那我們就認為說那如果一律要命前面當成不爭執的那個機關一起進來那其實是沒有訴訟實施那你如果是按照你這樣子的想法的話那你法條就不應該這樣寫啊"},{"start":12085.771,"end":12097.1,"text":"你法條應該要把它寫成說什麼行政法院與當事人爭執是因命啊就不是必要啦當事人有爭執的時候就要把他叫來啦"},{"start":12101.395,"end":12125.049,"text":"其實我看你們這個規定也是有點話蛇添足其實就回到原來的行政訴訟法的規定不是就沒有話蛇添足是法理解釋的問題因為這確實是有矛盾的問題前後矛盾這個我們規定的強度其實是比較強的原則上你如果這樣的話你就不用必要時就直接因嗎就是我剛才考量就是"},{"start":12126.03,"end":12128.513,"text":"我們先處理會議時間因為上午會議結局時間將屆我們先處理會議時間上午會議繼續進行議程所列事項稍後我們會討論狀況"},{"start":12143.792,"end":12169.23,"text":"中間會預計休一小時用餐之後再繼續開會討論因為委員的討論相當熱烈我也不好去用剛性的方式去切斷幾點到幾點那我就讓討論繼續走那我們先處理上午的開會時間那在這個同時呢也跟委員報告大家手頭上桌面上應該有兩份資料一個是剛剛我們的第一條的建議修正的建議那剛剛的修正建議的文字內容呢已經是有讀過了"},{"start":12170.211,"end":12196.471,"text":"那只是在說明的部分那麼莊委員這邊有一些看法那莊委員看一看因為我們將文字修正之後後面的說明還是有提到程序經濟這樣的一個比較完整的概念不過在法條文字上做比較精簡的表達那想回過來徵詢我們委員會對於第一條剛剛的內容部分可否確認大家看到沒有 那個就是第一條"},{"start":12204.366,"end":12218.993,"text":"好啦 有妥適就可以了好 妥適好那我們剛剛暫保留的第一條我們就按文字修正內容通過好 謝謝那剛剛呢 因為在討論到第二條的時候呢是有委員建議到是不是可以在"},{"start":12219.713,"end":12244.692,"text":"那個立法說明的部分補充上去大家看到一個雙面的那一張雙面的那一張是在立法理由的第二點的最後三行至於相牽連行政訴訟事件之審理依各該事件之特性適用該事件之訴訟法理那請問這樣的一個補充在立法說明當中有無對前面的第二項的部分有一個比較完整的一個說明"},{"start":12246.223,"end":12275.624,"text":"好 那個列席機關要不要就這個補充內容再做深論第二條第二條的立法說明的第二點最後那三行畫底線的部分就是你們新增的部分所以要解決條文文字的第二項相牽連的部分我們在場委員看一下"},{"start":12279.804,"end":12304.077,"text":"有沒有補充說明有沒有要補充 沒有 那請問委員 各位委員的意見還是不太清楚 這個是用該事件的訴訟法例還是訴訟規定呢請將 翁委員你將問題要他們回答什麼問題就他這裡的訴訟法例訴訟法例多增加劃線的這個部分其實還是不清楚"},{"start":12309.014,"end":12310.536,"text":"那個內政委會的PVP在哪裡?我內政委會還有幾個?"},{"start":12333.076,"end":12341.245,"text":"那你現在訴訟法你就只有行政訴訟法跟稅務審理法嘛 對不對 就兩個陳庭長要說明嗎 翁委員那不要請陳庭長說明好 請陳庭長說明"},{"start":12345.489,"end":12369.858,"text":"那我們謝謝翁委員的指教那如果我們把最後一句是不是把它寫得更明確寫成說適用本法或行政訴訟法適用本法或行政訴訟法你的意思是說適用該事件的訴訟法理這裡"},{"start":12372.588,"end":12386.727,"text":"依照各該事件的特性嘛他的性質嘛看是如果是屬於稅務的這一塊那就適用本法嘛那如果不是那當然就是就是適用行政訴訟法最基本的法律"},{"start":12389.741,"end":12415.172,"text":"主席這邊理解一下就是立法說明的翻過來第二點倒數的最後一行就是第二段的最後一行適用該事件之訴訟法理把它再調整為適用本法或行政訴訟法是這意思嗎好那請各位委員他最後那一句適用該事件之訴訟法理更明確地講"},{"start":12416.432,"end":12443.122,"text":"適用本法或行政訴訟法那請委員會的看法來這樣翁委員可以嗎可以啊好把它寫清楚好謝謝那我們呢就第二條的部分我們的立法理由就修正如剛剛宣讀的內容謝謝委員會那我現在把它處理一下第二條條文沒有沒有修改啊"},{"start":12444.717,"end":12471.25,"text":"那現在第二條條文我們就照司法院提案通過然後立法說明的部分按照剛剛的文字內容修正好那麼剛剛是在第四條的部分好像比較當事人能力的部分這邊大家還在思考那麼第五條以訴願決定機關為被告這個部分也還在思考"},{"start":12472.406,"end":12492.208,"text":"然後第六條大家也還在討論那麼目前我們有第六至五六那麼我們是不是第六條也先暫保留我們看第七條第七條的部分來 那麼第七條 那個機關代表要不要對第七條做補充說明"},{"start":12495.964,"end":12523.986,"text":"謝謝主席那第七條我們是基於稅務行政事件的專業性那我們就希望如果他的訴訟標的是在150萬元以上的也就是換句話說就是高等行政訴訟廳管轄的通常訴訟程序第一審稅務行政事件目前是標的金額是150萬元以上的案件"},{"start":12524.867,"end":12553.733,"text":"那我們把這一類的案件也把它規定成為要因為認律師為訴訟代理人並且適用行政訴訟法關於強制律師代理的規定以上報告謝謝本條文我們在公聽會引起熱烈的討論那麼強制律師代理的部分來請黃委員第一個是當然我不是說在幫其他"},{"start":12555.868,"end":12576.736,"text":"專門職業技術人員講話我先問一下那個會計師公會對這條有沒有意見報告委員在稅務訴訟會計師是可以擔任代理人的因為他用到行政訴訟法的規定是可以的所以你在這邊所講的就因為任律師為訴訟代理人這裡是包括會計師"},{"start":12578.862,"end":12606.88,"text":"是因為他後面還有一句就是適用行政訴訟法你適用行政訴訟法關於強制律師代理的規定適用哪幾條我們在立法說明第二點我們一條一條來從哪一條開始適用行政訴訟法49條之一第二項等一下齁49條之一第二項你等我一下齁"},{"start":12632.294,"end":12650.724,"text":"其實因為你第七條的規定裡面你這裡就寫得很清楚是委任律師所以看不出來說是可以委任律師以外的其他的專業就有專業資格的人所以如果說是按照剛剛廷長說的連這個專業會計事務所都可以成為訴訟代理人的話"},{"start":12651.769,"end":12673.738,"text":"那麼我認為這個條文的文字應該要再繼續修正這樣對老百姓來講才更清楚啊而且第一省的這個稅務事件行政事件它的範圍是150萬是不是150萬以上那麼在你們的立法理由裡面應該要把它就講清楚"},{"start":12677.479,"end":12695.492,"text":"當然未來有可能第一省的稅務事件它的金額可能會有所調整那你們也可以說例如以現行法來講可能是150萬就未來隨著這個稅務行政事件的額度調整的話它也隨之調整這樣才會清楚"},{"start":12696.747,"end":12709.895,"text":"現在好像也有人認為以為說是不是五十萬但是你們上次也有剛剛有講了嘛主要是以一百五十萬以上的案件為主我們一條一條的你說適用行政訴訟法關於強制律師代理的規定"},{"start":12725.814,"end":12744.714,"text":"你第一個適用的是49條之一的第二項對 強制律師代理恆定原則好 然後第三項第三項第一款跟第二款可以不委任律師為訴訟代理人的情形"},{"start":12749.771,"end":12777.783,"text":"這邊是只要審判長許可的意思嗎?第三項、第四項?沒有沒有,他第三項還不用審判長許可他第三項就可以不用委任律師為訴訟代理人對,本人直接可以進行訴訟然後第四項第四項有用嗎?會計師就在這邊第四項有,也可以准用就是可以委任非律師為訴訟代理人"},{"start":12778.499,"end":12804.037,"text":"那是要經過誰許可經本案的行政法院吧然後你第二項說49條之一第四項授命法官就有這個權利了行準備程序的時候,對是然後還有什麼還有第五項"},{"start":12805.014,"end":12833.96,"text":"第五項的規定 前兩項情形應於提起或委任時事明之然後再來咧還有第六項第六項就是例外不適用強制律師代理的事件所以我如果申請訴訟救助這個可以不用強制律師代理那怪啦申請選任律師為訴訟代理人這個也不用"},{"start":12835.339,"end":12861.253,"text":"然後申請核電律師酬金也不用然後第七對第七項到第九項就是如果你是強制律師代理的案件你沒有依法委任訴訟代理人的法律效果好那除了49條之一還有哪些適用還有49條之二49條之二"},{"start":12868.033,"end":12877.464,"text":"還有什麼還有49條之3訴訟救助的規定但是你49條之3你寫的是49條之1第一項的事件喔49條之3"},{"start":12887.572,"end":12909.547,"text":"關於訴訟救助 就是無資歷對啦 你看第一句話嘛 49條之一第一項的事件嘛所以你那個49條之三你要適用是說你的主持要變成的是適用稅務行政事件法的規定嘛是然後呢還有就是66條"},{"start":12916.198,"end":12943.057,"text":"66條關於送達送達權限訴訟代理人有收不用啦 這個根本就不用規定啊因為你這裡面沒規定就不就回到行政訴訟法的規定了我們只是在立法理由說明就是說行政訴訟法相關的規定有哪一些是可以適用的幫大家彙整起來"},{"start":12944.042,"end":12969.602,"text":"那第66條有規定強制律師代理的事情就對了第66條規定是送達的是第二項受送達的權限不受限制對你把49條之一的第一項又把它替換成是稅務行政事件是第一句的主詞應該就是稅務行政事件"},{"start":12973.804,"end":12997.765,"text":"我是建議你們考慮一下就是要怎麼樣適用關於強制代理的規定的這件事情只寫一句話它在規範上是不是充足的發生規範的能量可不可以承載這件事情再重新思考一下"},{"start":12999.673,"end":13007.706,"text":"因為我這樣都要跟你一項一項下去對阿我建議這條先保留啦"},{"start":13010.216,"end":13037.046,"text":"好 那麼我想 第七條目前進行到這裡由於它在立法說明的部分引用第二點引用的相關行政訴訟法內容相當多樣那是否我們待會中午用餐休息一小時時間那麼請機關代表辛苦一點就剛剛委員所詢問到的這些內容的對照你們大概把它那個路徑再調列一下"},{"start":13037.446,"end":13057.399,"text":"因為的確我們現在跟著行政訴訟法的條次一項一項去看雖然是立法說明是有助於剛剛翁委員所說的因為一般在法條本文一般人只看到法條本文那立法說明裡面涉及到哪些路徑怎麼跑恐怕那要相當的訴訟程序的專業人員才能理解好不好"},{"start":13058.38,"end":13077.64,"text":"那現在因為已經在中午休息時間那主席這邊我們就先休息一小時來進行用餐那麼這個時間如果有剛剛上午委員在討論條文的時候有需要補充或提供資料的那請趕快準備那我們現在休息一小時用餐"},{"start":17311.254,"end":17324.328,"text":"好 繼續該會進行討論事項 第一案主條討論來 我們繼續進行第七條的討論好 那麼第七條呢 在上午的會議當中有委員對於"},{"start":17327.685,"end":17340.484,"text":"說明就是第一項強制律師代理的規定在立法說明的部分的第二點當中如列了行政訴訟法各個條文的規定內容那麼請問各位委員如果說我們這一條"},{"start":17342.697,"end":17369.639,"text":"先暫時保留然後我們等相關的那些跟行政訴訟法相關的對應的資料到了後我們再再進行進一步的討論好不好因為上午的有意見的委員目前尚未到場那我們為了尊重有發言委員的意見我們先暫保留好不好好謝謝莊委員那我們現在進行第8條那第8條的部分是關於"},{"start":17373.131,"end":17376.394,"text":"第八條陳儒主席講的是我們為了要貫徹原處分主義因為之前的稅務訴訟常常礙於"},{"start":17394.722,"end":17418.639,"text":"稅捐基增機關分次做成不同的處分或者是礙於我們怕撤銷到原處分之後會離於核科期間所以我們實務上的做法就是常常都只是去撤到複查決定而不急於原處分但是因為這一次配合"},{"start":17419.359,"end":17441.051,"text":"我們希望貫徹原處分主義同時也配合稅捐基增法21條第三項到第六項已經增訂了合科期間的時效不完成的適由因此我們也參考了德國的財務法院法的規定關於原處分主義精神的規定訂定本條 以上 謝謝"},{"start":17442.574,"end":17471.557,"text":"好 謝謝跟委員報告接下來的條文如果在場委員沒有特別意見我們會先以就是照審查結果通過但是呢最後要做成決議的時候還是會回過頭來對所有的暫保留條文進行討論好 避免大家誤會好 那麼第八條我們照司法院提案通過對對 因為最後還要再先拿暫時嘛"},{"start":17477.957,"end":17497.945,"text":"我們就先原則上沒有意見那我們現在不能做人決議我剛剛在詢問說決議是要等全部通過還是要逐條那逐條我們就是先原則通過但是回過頭來我們會在每一條再看過那這一條先設原則無其他意見好接下來第九條那麼請機關代表說明"},{"start":17500.158,"end":17523.728,"text":"第九條就是針對行政訴訟各種不同的訴訟類型明文規定就是關於起訴狀應該表明的各個事項那我們希望把它明確化請問在場委員對於第九條有沒有要詢問或不同意見要表達"},{"start":17525.424,"end":17535.883,"text":"沒有那我們第九條也是先原則無意見那我們最後再回過頭來進行確認好那麼第十條請機關代表說明"},{"start":17538.008,"end":17560.475,"text":"第十條是關於原處分停止執行的規定那目前行政訴訟法關於行政處分停止執行的規定在現有的條文是在116條這裡有一些相關的規定那但是這一次我們本法是特別優化了這一部分"},{"start":17562.556,"end":17588.389,"text":"並且參酌目前實務運作的情形就明定說原處分或者是決定的執行不會因為提起行政訴訟而停止但是在行政訴訟起訴前或細數中有一些情勢的話行政法院可以依照申請來裁定停止執行"},{"start":17588.929,"end":17615.987,"text":"但是我們這個法案跟行政訴訟比較不一樣的是我們又新訂了一個就是說如果停止執行的話行政法院可以於必要的時候依申請或依職權命向原處分機關提供擔保以後才能停止執行這一個是目前行政訴訟停止執行的規定所沒有的"},{"start":17618.909,"end":17642.41,"text":"考量的是在於說還是為了要確保國家租稅在權因為避免停止執行面臨到受償的風險那因此我們設計了就是在當事人可以命他提供擔保那第四項的規定大概還是希望是以像行政機關先申請停止執行"},{"start":17645.936,"end":17667.667,"text":"沒有達到他的目的或效果的話才向行政法院來申請停止執行因此我們設計了就是說向行政法院如果他在訴訟細數前的話僅僅是在於行政機關拒絕了你的停止執行的申請你才可以向法院來提出這樣的一個申請"},{"start":17668.627,"end":17694.086,"text":"那當然我們也擴大了停止執行的效力也就是如果這個停止執行的效力他會給予到前面的基礎處分跟後續處分是一併來停止執行那當然我們同時也並隨著規範的就是說可以依照法院可以依照申請命他向原處分機關來提供擔保"},{"start":17696.387,"end":17698.369,"text":"以確保我們國家租稅的債權"},{"start":17705.528,"end":17726.395,"text":"其他的相關的規定那當然就是我們這邊也明定就是說如果在停止執行期間的話是不得科徵滯納金的因為他已經依法裁定停止執行了但是我們這裡有設計一個他還是必須要計付利息"},{"start":17727.355,"end":17756.155,"text":"規定那至於如何計付利息那我們也是參考了這個稅捐基增法的相關規定我們有明定怎麼樣來計算利息的規定那當然如果這個做了這個停止執行的規定的話其實我們明文規定機關這個時候你還是可以做成一個後續處分也不會影響依法維保權的措施那以上報告謝謝"},{"start":17757.357,"end":17764.474,"text":"好 謝謝那麼因為這裡面涉及到稅捐基增法請問在場的財稅機關財政部列席代表有沒有要補充來 請"},{"start":17766.781,"end":17787.814,"text":"主席好 我們主要是針對第十項就是從條文倒數的第二項它講到說行政法院裁定原處分或者是決定停止執行期間不得課徵滯納金然後但是因為應該就下列期間來加計利息那因為這個條文的設計是說"},{"start":17790.676,"end":17800.421,"text":"連原來他已經遇滯納處分譬如說我今天原來發了一張稅單這張稅單現期應該要繳納結果納稅人遇了我們的繳納期限依照稅務監法應該要加徵滯納金但是他都沒繳因為本稅滯納金都欠繳欠繳以後法院當然我們就會移送執行現在如果說行政法院裁定說原處分或決定執行的期間都不得課徵滯納金"},{"start":17819.931,"end":17840.556,"text":"那這裡的意思是連原來他應該繳的滯納金依照我們的了解就是這條條文的設計是說他原來已經預期繳納的滯納金也一併不能加徵而且要已經如果他有繳的就要退還那如果說沒有繳的將來要再等到行政法院審"},{"start":17842.417,"end":17855.731,"text":"這個確定以後再來處理那我們現在是覺得說如果是這樣的話會不會對於一些就是如果是依法納稅的納稅義務人他本來就是在限期內他就依照規定來繳了他並不會故意去延遲繳納這個稅款"},{"start":17857.913,"end":17878.701,"text":"那現在變成裁定停止前已經發生的滯納金同樣都不能處理的話會不會有這個造成對一線納稅的民眾不公平的現象所以我們是認為是不是可以佐以修正就是對於這個如果他原來不爭原來已經退還給他的但是他最後敗訴了"},{"start":17880.082,"end":17894.87,"text":"敗訴確定的話是不是他原來該繳的滯納金還是應該一併徵收不是只有加計利息而已這是我們對於第十項的部分意見那當然這部分最後我們還是會尊重立法院審議的結果"},{"start":17896.257,"end":17908.006,"text":"好 謝謝各位委員報告目前我們在審理的是第10條那第10條剛剛司法院機關代表已經說明了那麼現在是財政部次長代表財稅機關說明講的是第10項請看我們的這個關係文書報紙顏色的這一張的正第13頁第13頁的第10項"},{"start":17918.334,"end":17942.131,"text":"是在左邊 那欄位上的倒數第三項第三塊 有第三項 滯納金的部分那立法說明是在15頁 寫在立法說明的第11點那請問剛剛我們財稅機關代表所說的部分希望在文字上作予一些調整請問在場委員或其他機關代表要不要補充"},{"start":17943.464,"end":17963.582,"text":"有沒有如果財稅機關代表有覺得要做微調的文字如果有的話可以送主席台來我們來徵求委員的看法來那個先先翁委員然後再來由那個陳廷長說明要不要先請陳廷長說明好了好不好來陳廷長請就剛剛其他機關代表的意見做回應"},{"start":17965.438,"end":17978.53,"text":"其實訂定這一條我們是考量到說其實滯納金只是要督促人民如期繳納稅款而且填補國家財政因為人民遇期繳納所受到的公益損害"},{"start":17980.191,"end":17997.337,"text":"所以其實我們認為說它的性質是跟貸金是相類似的而且兼具有遲延利息的性質這也是4至616號跟746號的解釋的意旨因為如果"},{"start":17997.897,"end":18023.805,"text":"原處分或者是決定已經經行政法院裁定准予停止執行那納稅義務人在停止執行的這一段期間他就可以暫緩的繳納稅款因此他所負的這個這個給付的這個義務他的清償期其實就是可以延後因為法院都已經裁定停止了"},{"start":18024.205,"end":18050.441,"text":"那所以我們認為說這個時候就不宜再依照稅捐基增法20條規定可予他滯納金而且他已經繳納的滯納金要返還但那只是我們又考量到說為了怕納稅醫務人因此獲得不當得利所以就是在他本案敗訴確定的話他就是要付遲延利息"},{"start":18051.801,"end":18074.573,"text":"這是我們法條的設計其實這一個法條因為牽涉到基增機關的實務我們當時在研修的時候也已經有請財政部相關機關的代表充分討論確定可行性之後我們才做了這樣一個條文的規定以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":18075.811,"end":18100.431,"text":"好 謝謝主席這邊先整理一下這樣聽起來有點陳進朗意思是說他們的流程這樣設計先已經繳的先退等到敗訴確定後再去算你這段時間因為你該繳和未繳的利息是多少就以利息的方式來要求而不是用滯納金那滯納金比較像是稅券行政機關先以"},{"start":18102.12,"end":18123.131,"text":"當時該繳和未繳的期間所計的利息去算那個滯納金那我這樣聽起來是這個在審議這個稅務事件審議期間是不能算的那個時間是凍結的可是之前他已經遲的最後如果是敗訴了那前面停的這段還是要講"},{"start":18124.292,"end":18142.723,"text":"那等於說先退還給他 最後確定的再跟他要回來是這個意思那請問那個財政機關代表他們這樣的描述對嗎是你們的意思嗎你們可以接受基本上是兩個是不同的東西因為我們滯納金的計算是按照那個他應該課徵的本稅每月三天加1%的滯納金最多可以加到10%"},{"start":18146.405,"end":18166.575,"text":"但是這邊第十項的設計是就它的那個就是該繳納期間的利息來計徵但是利息計徵是按照那個郵政儲金一年期定期儲金的利息利率來計算兩個其實是有很大的金額上會有很顯著的差尤其是如果金額很大的話那個差異性會更大"},{"start":18167.395,"end":18173.144,"text":"所以我們是覺得對於就是一般來講故意遲延繳納的這個納稅人其實他遲延繳納期間應該依法加徵的滯納金"},{"start":18177.99,"end":18188.774,"text":"如果他這個案子敗訴以後應該要能夠回復他應該履行的納稅義務才合理雖然有滯納利息的設計但是兩個金額真的到時候會有很顯著的差異會影響他們那個納稅公平性而且對一般民眾來講如果是誠實納稅的納稅義務人我一樣提起救濟但是我已經都在期限內繳納了改繳的稅款"},{"start":18201.798,"end":18227.448,"text":"那你現在對於未溢現繳稅款的這個納稅員他該加上滯納金你還不能到最後並於執行其實這是一個非常不公平的情形 以上說明我想委員會已經聽出差別了因為我們在受理陳情的時候就知道滯納金跟你陰繳稅款本金的利息是不太一樣的不是不一樣 是很不一樣那這一點 雖然我們要進一步的詢問還是 崩委員你要詢問 因為我們常常處理的"},{"start":18228.576,"end":18255.968,"text":"是因為剛剛聽了那個就廳長還有部長跟次長的說明確實我比較贊同次長的一個看法畢竟就是滯納金是本來他就應該繳稅但他不繳然後呢所以所發生的這個這個滯納金那更何況就行政法院裁定員處分的這個時間點可能距離他本來要繳的這個滯納金中間又隔了一段時間那麼"},{"start":18259.345,"end":18283.127,"text":"對 就現行的這個法律 就現行的草案規定的設計它的確會造成一個不公平的現象反而是鼓勵那個 就不積極繳稅的那個這樣的一個稅務行為人所以我建議說這個條文要修改如果今天沒有辦法提出適合的條文的話 可能就保留好 來 司法院代表 來 那個廳長"},{"start":18284.802,"end":18302.34,"text":"跟委員報告 誠如剛才財政部次長講 滯納金是很重的我們的想法是說為了保障納稅義務人法院都已經裁定你可以停止執行而且我們還命你供擔保 確保稅捐債權不會落空"},{"start":18307.145,"end":18317.558,"text":"如果是因為法院裁定准許你停止執行你這樣子還要叫納稅義務人還是刻那麼重的滯納金那我們會覺得說其實是對這個納稅人有點嚴苛"},{"start":18326.448,"end":18346.022,"text":"我是覺得司法院這個對民眾比較有利的一個版本法理上也比較通啦你確實啊你財政部當然也希望給太多財政部的立場你不用講我也知道啊但重點是說你確實是經過法院去裁定法院下說要先停"},{"start":18347.981,"end":18365.568,"text":"那你這個在苛責當事人說哎喲事後你這個本來喔本來這個地方你漏掉了全部要把它補回來我看就不必了吧好我是覺得這要死亡你現在在場委員的意見我把它釐清對人民也比較有利啊而且他那個有利也不是憑空掉下來啊也是以法院認為說"},{"start":18367.249,"end":18390.439,"text":"我先給你停機執行,你要講擔保還是要講擔保我跟委員說明一下,我聽起來那個財政部跟司法院不太一樣因為滯納金在裁定暫停之前就已經有一段他要繳滯納金的處分了那等到法院開始裁定暫停之後,這段時間"},{"start":18392.134,"end":18417.346,"text":"稅務行政機關是不會對他扣滯納金的但是最後如果敗訴了那表示前面裁定停止之前應繳的滯納金要回復然後呢最後判定應欠的稅款後面所可能因為持繳的利息還要記錄到稅款的本金去計算所以財政部的主張是說如果法院一旦裁定暫停那個之後不會產生不會加計滯納金因為現在在審理了嘛但是審理如果敗訴確定還是要補稅"},{"start":18421.468,"end":18442.091,"text":"那補的稅後面到你繳稅之前有利息但是前面因為托持繳稅所產生的滯納金不會因為你有進入稅務行政事件審理宣告暫停就因此消失啦只是被裁定暫停的那一段時間稅務行政事件不會再跟你去計算那個滯納金啦"},{"start":18443.132,"end":18455.197,"text":"所以這裡面呢就發生在提起訴訟的時候如果發現裁定暫停那前面已經稅務行政醫院所處分的滯納金還是有效到除非後來"},{"start":18457.128,"end":18474.897,"text":"那些人勝訴這個都不算才會消失嘛但是如果是敗訴了前面這段照算所以我發現我們司法院在這個稅務事件審理法當中翁委員所提到的跟莊委員所提到的還有剛剛兩邊所提到的這個設計上的斷點的計算要更明確那個時間點要更明確"},{"start":18478.291,"end":18495.099,"text":"我想市法院了解你們的目前設定的流程對於裁定暫停之前已經被稅務行政機關作出處分應繳的滯納金的部分一旦當事人敗訴稅務行政機關認為他本來就該繳至於他敗訴後所審判判決的應繳的稅額到他繳之間這段時間叫做利息嘛"},{"start":18506.55,"end":18509.795,"text":"這段時間要立行嘛這還沒有談講處罰的部分"},{"start":18511.656,"end":18539.562,"text":"這樣好不好 這個部分請司法院代表你們在就剛剛財稅機關財政部的意見你們再看看你們的文字上怎麼去表達出這個區隔後我們再由委員會的委員來決定要不要接受好不好那現在在位置上呢 我們的委員的桌上有幾個東西首先是因為翁委員在上午有表達到第三條在通過之後呢他認為立法說明的部分還是要請那個機關代表做說明這是第一個部分"},{"start":18540.262,"end":18558.419,"text":"那再來呢剛剛我們下午就上午的部分進行的部分有處理到第七條那第七條呢主席這邊是說有一個說明資料將那個法條的對應呢表達清楚那這個說明資料已經在各位的桌上了這是有關第七條的部分那因為第八條跟第九條呢其實"},{"start":18559.844,"end":18589.324,"text":"那剛剛在處理的時候在場委員並沒有特別意見不過因為人數的關係我們只能說原則上是同意但是呢還是處在一個後來還要回過台等到人數到了之後我們才能處理好那我現在又一個一個來不好意思有點倒車請大家仔細聽喔現在第三條的部分應翁委員的要求請就立法說明的部分再跟翁委員做補充說明那翁委員您可不可以再提示一下您要求他補充說明的內容的增點是什麼"},{"start":18589.864,"end":18604.834,"text":"好不好因為那個條文已經通過了是在第三條裡面因為這個主要的內容就是未來是以稅務行政事件的審理法看起來是作為一個特別法可是我們也看到很多專家學者會認為說這樣子的一個條文設計可能跟納保法之間"},{"start":18610.477,"end":18629.782,"text":"就整個稅法結構來講可能還是有一些不太適合的關係因為就稅法來說可能還是納保法優先然後之後才稅源計增法然後納稅省法又是行政訴訟特別法所以我們的想法是說是不是可以在第三條的立法理由裡面還是把"},{"start":18631.663,"end":18646.976,"text":"這個納保法跟稅審法之間的關係能夠用一兩句話把它講清楚哪些部分是適用的是納保法的程序處理哪些又是適用到現在我們所講的這個稅審法好我想跟那個"},{"start":18653.309,"end":18670.055,"text":"機關代表說明因為翁委員他並沒有要去做第三條條文本身的那個做再處理只是說希望你們立法說明他寫的內容在產民稅審法跟納保法之間的關係的優先順序還有它的適用上的效果請做口頭上再做補充好不好"},{"start":18674.863,"end":18684.729,"text":"對 口頭上做補充或者是說如果說可以的話是不是也可以在立法理由上面再補充再說明因為納保法也有它自己的一些程序的規定嘛"},{"start":18686.193,"end":18703.866,"text":"對 所以就是跟稅審法這裡的一些關係 是不是可以用一兩句話把它寫清楚那個廳長 上午您有對於稅審法跟納保法有大概做個闡述那因為翁委員這一部分他沒有聽到 所以您可以再做一個說明"},{"start":18706.538,"end":18725.025,"text":"應該這麼說就是說因為之前這個司法院有來跟我報告然後當時我們有講說就這個地方的這個立法理由是可以再補充加強對對對我跟委員報告就是說其實我們因為有一些當然我們是跟納保法有相類似的規定就例如推計課稅就例如這個"},{"start":18730.027,"end":18741.652,"text":"總額主義那當然有相類似的規定那如果碰到有相類似的規定其實我們都會在立法理由裡面像我們的19條我們都會在立法理由裡面講說因為什麼樣一個原因我們這邊跟納保法規範的是怎麼樣一個情形所以"},{"start":18755.638,"end":18773.477,"text":"我們認為說本條要優先於納稅者權利保護法21條第一項規定的適用因為其實在進一步報告就是納保法21條第一項它只規定它規定的是說納稅者如果"},{"start":18774.578,"end":18789.133,"text":"他納稅者可以在訴願決定前或者是事實審言辭辯論終結前追加辯跟主張瞌睡處分的違法事由他是這麼規定的但是我們19條"},{"start":18791.956,"end":18817.434,"text":"19條規定的結果就是說其實它是可以在整個訴訟程序中隨時追加補充變更的而且我們的程序也不以說是在訴願決定前或者是行政訴訟事實審言辭辯論終結前違憲也包含在上訴審最高行政法院它可以"},{"start":18818.314,"end":18834.212,"text":"他因為行言辭辯論而可以斟酌事實的這種情形當時也可以做一些追加或變更所以我們認為我們這一邊的規定比納保法在程序上的限制更寬"},{"start":18837.035,"end":18851.594,"text":"納稅者更可以適用所以我們認為說應該優先於納稅者權力保護法21條第一項的規定所以其實我剛才只是舉一個例子我們在相關個別的條文像17條我們也有做"},{"start":18853.637,"end":18868.952,"text":"17條規定跟納保法11條第三項規定之間如何適用的一些的說明我們在各個相關的條文裡面其實我們有做了一些的理由都有做說明以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":18870.393,"end":18887.686,"text":"好 難問委員請因為廳長剛剛其實也講清楚了就是說你們在後面有些條文的理由裡面有特別講那有沒有可能就是在第三條的這個地方也可以就是再加幾個就是說譬如說以本法的第幾條可能就優先適用納保法的規定"},{"start":18888.632,"end":18915.724,"text":"或是哪些是優先適用碎審法的規定要不然的話如果說你從第三條這個條文規定來看的話看起來是所有的事件審理都一定要優先適用碎審法的規定而不是適用納保法的規定對所以我建議說這是為了明確啦就是讓未來的就想要更理解碎審法裡面的規定的民眾或專業律師啊等等他們讀這個"},{"start":18917.585,"end":18936.118,"text":"立法理由說明的時候可以一目了然好不好那個委員那我們現在來加文字我們現在來處理謝謝翁委員了解翁委員的意思了所以就是在立法說明的部分你們可以看在左加一些文字讓避免誤會好謝謝非常好那麼我們第三條照照上還是一樣沒有變動"},{"start":18937.318,"end":18952.008,"text":"那接下來那個第7條的部分請教委員會第7條經過說明資料的這個爐列之後是否委員會他已經很清楚了請大家看第一頁部分他直接寫了行政訴訟法第49之1"},{"start":18954.429,"end":18977.788,"text":"然後呢 再翻靠隔夜 49-2然後呢 49-3然後呢 行政訴訟法66那第90條之8 98條之898-8那這樣就分別類就很清楚了跟行政訴訟法的對應觀就出來了那因此呢 請教委員會對於這樣的一個內容上是否接受這樣的立法說明"},{"start":18980.851,"end":19008.72,"text":"我記得第七條不是保留嗎所以我們就是因為上午就有說暫保留的原因就是因為有委員認為他在行政訴訟法第二項你看到我們這個報紙本的第十頁第十頁他在說明立法說明的第二大點他都把它寫成一塊寫在一堆那現在他們的寫法就把它拆拆成49條之一49之二之三66、98之八很清楚的把它區隔開來"},{"start":19009.58,"end":19033.704,"text":"那這樣的一個立法說明的條文內容就很清楚的讓大家在讀的時候呢未來在實務上在試用的時候只要看到立法說明就知道它第七條的原文它的入境是怎麼走那個崩委員你有沒有看到這一份我知道這一份可是它現在這個怎麼併進來我不太知道你是說第二項對 這是一個補充說明"},{"start":19036.935,"end":19041.719,"text":"立法理由的第二點的補充說明我再強調一次是立法理由第二點的補充說明不是不是是對立法理由第二點的補充說明"},{"start":19051.977,"end":19074.094,"text":"沒有 我的意思是說那你未來這些文字會放在第二點裡面嗎會修正立法說明嗎那這個公式就大了是我了解我了解翁委員的意思也了解他們現在提供的資料這個資料是在就立法理由的第二點這些條文如何去適用他做個補充說明但是如果說你要把"},{"start":19075.151,"end":19091.231,"text":"那個立法說明變成是現在的這個說明資料恐怕在體力上他沒有辦法去表達就是要跟公務員說明的這個所以現在只是他們提供就是說明而已啦不是說是要修改這個立法理由可是"},{"start":19093.141,"end":19104.246,"text":"如果早上在談到有關於第一省稅務行政事件現在是150萬以上的這個事情其實外界不是很清楚說這個是涉及到150萬以上的稅務案件"},{"start":19110.836,"end":19138.303,"text":"那麼就這樣好不好可不可以我這樣好不好現在我們跟委員會幫我們研究一下就是說現在的手上的這個說明資料是對於我們第十頁第七條立法的條文後面的立法說明的補充說明那因為我們在法案上我們委員會通過的會有本文跟隨著本文後面的立法說明那至於說我們對立法說明的內容的再說明要如何讓"},{"start":19139.603,"end":19147.637,"text":"適用者能夠去理解那可能委員會在最後可能要做個處理至於怎麼處理這個再想一下好不好"},{"start":19148.855,"end":19172.436,"text":"而且其實我想還是很多的專家學者跟律師團體以及我有聽到有些民眾的看法會認為說一定要強制律師代理這個其實對有些弱勢族群來說會造成一個經濟上的負擔他本來就已經因為要繳稅這個事情"},{"start":19175.594,"end":19180.005,"text":"有所爭執了那現在又要強制他要再聘律師來處理稅務的徵送"},{"start":19185.294,"end":19214.073,"text":"所以就這一點來講我是建議說第七條是不是仍然是保留來我們還是暫保留因為這個是如列條文他並沒有做說明就是對第二點立法說明的條文他全部都列給他閱讀上便於閱讀沒有說明在下我只是便於閱讀那翁委員是說我們還是暫保留我建議是說直接保留送協商沒有我現在翁委員我這邊是怎麼處理我會有一套做法好不好絕對不會讓大家有爭議的東西送出去您放心"},{"start":19215.174,"end":19222.437,"text":"那第八條的部分因為剛剛是委員人數未達那在這一次詢問對第八條的內容委員有沒有其他意見因為剛剛在宣告的時候在場人數未達所以我們那個宣告就要重新確認"},{"start":19257.165,"end":19278.76,"text":"在場委員有需要機關代表在對第八條再做一次說明嗎這條有沒有意見剛剛是沒有意見那如果委員會沒有意見的話我們第八條是否同意照司法院提案通過好那這樣就確認了"},{"start":19280.1,"end":19289.849,"text":"那接下來第九條剛剛也是因為人數的關係所以我們機關代表做了說明之後我們雖然在場沒有意見但是還要經過確認讓委員有時間消緩一下"},{"start":19303.359,"end":19325.718,"text":"跟委員會報告,因為如果說機關代表說明後,在場委員沒有意見,我們通常就會讓他原則通過但是如果委員還要再確認,我們會等大家好,那如果第九條委員會沒有意見,我們第九條就照司法院提案通過"},{"start":19326.857,"end":19349.39,"text":"那因為第10條呢因為這個稅務機關跟司法機關這邊有些定義上處理上的程序我們先暫保了好不好讓兩機關有時間去就條文做些討論那是否我們就繼續往下走到第11條那11條呢是否請機關代表司法院陳廳長可以先做說明請11條第16頁"},{"start":19355.875,"end":19368.645,"text":"11條開始就是關於協力義務的部分11條到第16條我們今天不處理因為有委員表達所以11條到第16條我們先不處理請看第17條第21頁有請機關代表說明"},{"start":19381.267,"end":19396.449,"text":"十七條是關於證據使用禁止原則的規定那其實這一個規定也是納稅者權利保護法第十一條第三項也有明文的規定"},{"start":19397.15,"end":19424.985,"text":"就是說他的規定是說稅捐基金機關或財政部負稅署指定的人員你違法調查證據取得的話原則上是要排除但是如果情節輕微或者是明顯排除明顯違反公共利益的話就不在此限這本來就是納稅者權利保護法的規定那我們17條是在這個基礎上進而再把它區分成為第一項是所謂的這個絕對禁止"},{"start":19426.906,"end":19454.241,"text":"也就是因為他的違法情節取得是比較嚴重的例如他是用強暴脅迫、詐欺、疲勞訊問等方法這類取得的證據就是明文排除禁止那第二項其實就是把原來納保法但書的規定大概哪一種是屬於情節輕微或者是排除明顯有公共利益的話我們把它具體化的來規範在第二項"},{"start":19455.122,"end":19471.523,"text":"這是一個相對使用禁止的一個規定以上報告好 那麼請問在場委員對於第17條17條是就於不正方法取得之證據禁止作為處分之依據的相關的規定"},{"start":19475.285,"end":19500.77,"text":"好那麼在場委員對於17條同意照司法院提案通過請看第18條請機關代表第18條說明第18條是有關於督促當事人能夠集中提出資料善盡訴訟促進的義務那所以我們做了這樣一個規定也就是說當事人必須按照訴訟程度"},{"start":19502.675,"end":19527.617,"text":"進行的程度適當的時期來提出相關的攻擊防禦方法那如果遇時提出的話行政法院是可以把這樣一個攻擊防禦方法把它駁回的但是我們也設了一個但書的規定也就是在如果他提出的資料不會延至訴訟或者是對於訴訟進行的程度影響很小"},{"start":19528.678,"end":19551.281,"text":"或者是不可以規則當事人的室友導致他不能夠在適當時期提出或者是說法院為了個案的公平正義認為如果不讓他提出這一些證據資料會顯示公平的話我們都設有但書的規定還是讓他在例外的情形之下可以提出"},{"start":19551.821,"end":19573.624,"text":"那另外本條第五項的規定其實是基於確定判決計判的效力也就是說如果今天行政法院已經做了一個實體判決而且這個判決確定以後那你當然不可以再基於這個"},{"start":19575.466,"end":19584.134,"text":"這個駁回的這些供給防禦方法另外起訴請求返還同一個科稅事實的這個一腳稅款那這一個條文是參考稅捐基增法28條第三項"},{"start":19591.041,"end":19603.789,"text":"的規定目前也採取同樣的規定那至於前面但書的規定設的這些例外我們則是參考了民事訴訟法196條跟276條的類似規定那這些規定目前根據行政訴訟法第132條也是明文准用"},{"start":19616.957,"end":19643.502,"text":"行政訴訟準又民事訴訟法196跟276條的規定以上報告謝謝好那這個是一個對於當事人因事實提出供給防禦的一些規定那一共有五項那第五項也嚴明他是參照稅捐基增法第28條第三項請問在場委員對於第18條的條文內容有其他意見"},{"start":19646.067,"end":19654.209,"text":"好那如果大家同意我們18條照司法院提案文字內容通過接下來請就19條機關代表說明跟各位委員報告第19條到23條開始就是關於總額主義配套措施的相關規範那第19條是規定說原告如果你在"},{"start":19674.713,"end":19691.402,"text":"你提起的這個相關的訴訟中你都可以隨時的來追加補充或者是變更足以減少科稅處分核定稅額的這些的適由那同樣的被告我們也賦予他相同的權利"},{"start":19692.102,"end":19709.849,"text":"也就是你在訴訟中可以隨時的來追加補充可以維持科稅處分這個數額的這一些的事由那我們就是希望第三項的規定是行政法院可以在原告訴之聲明的"},{"start":19711.009,"end":19734.599,"text":"範圍內依照職權來斟酌這一些可以減少或維持剋稅處分稅額的這些事由那我們是希望在程序上我們開的很大讓當事人不管是原告或者是被告甚至法院都可以依職權隨時追捕相關的事由我們就是希望紛爭能夠一次解決以上報告"},{"start":19736.027,"end":19759.519,"text":"好 那麼第19條呢 它首先開眾民意在說明的時候有依我們本法第8條那本法第8條剛剛在委員會討論的時候已經是按照司法院提案內容通過了然後呢 最後它在說明 立法說明的最後部分也提到呢 優先於納保法第20條第一項的規定適用之這個部分大概前後都有做一個說明"},{"start":19766.252,"end":19782.182,"text":"稅務行政機關有沒有意見就提到納保法優先於 請這條我們沒意見那如果我們委員會沒有意見我們第19條我們就照司法院提案內容通過"},{"start":19783.305,"end":19787.873,"text":"好 接下來請看第20條那誠如剛剛機關代表所說從20條到第24條都是落實總和主義建構訴訟上的配套措施那第20條請機關代表說明"},{"start":19797.379,"end":19819.578,"text":"第二十條規範的是說今天如果稅監偵機關他已經在一個他已經先做成一個處分而且這個處分已經是在訴訟系數中那結果那如果稅監機關發現有其他要增加稅額的這個適由的話他可以不必向"},{"start":19820.319,"end":19843.664,"text":"目前的做法在做一個補稅處分或第二個補稅處分第三個補稅處分這種的方式他可以重新做成一個新的處分來取代已經在訴訟系署中增值的原處分那我們這並且呢還"},{"start":19847.129,"end":19866.665,"text":"這裡的規範是它產生法定的這個數字變更的效果也就是它當然就是取代掉原來這個訴訟標的程序標的的這個處分而且新做成的處分不需要經過複查程序及訴願程序那為什麼會這樣規定就是希望"},{"start":19872.99,"end":19889.122,"text":"同一個課稅事件能夠在同一次的訴訟爭議中一次來解決因為按照目前的做法稅捐基金機關做成後續的其他的補稅處分它的程序"},{"start":19890.223,"end":19911.834,"text":"會拆分因為按照現在的規定後面做成的補稅處分當然還是必須進行訴願程序這個覆查跟訴願程序才能夠進行到行政訴訟而且他是沒有辦法在原來的行政訴訟利用數字追加的方式來把後面的這個"},{"start":19914.437,"end":19932.856,"text":"這個增加稅額的處分納進到原來的訴訟程序就是因為現行法的規定你必須要踐行訴願等前置程序那因此我們在制度上就做了這樣一個一個變革那同時我們也考慮到說因為沒有讓"},{"start":19934.478,"end":19954.134,"text":"當是新的處分再去做複查程序或者是訴願程序因此我們第二項就有比較嚴格的要求在程序上做了一些的規範希望機關能夠進行這些程序來保障納稅義務人的權利也就是說被告機關在"},{"start":19955.055,"end":19979.734,"text":"做成新的處分前他必須要給當事人陳述意見的機會而且要充分告知他事實跟法律的效果那同時對於增加核定稅額怎麼樣去填發繳款通知書我們也做了一些比較有利於納稅義務人的規範那目的當然也就是希望落實總額主義的精神紛爭一次解決 謝謝"},{"start":19981.374,"end":20005.315,"text":"好 謝謝機關代表的說明 跟委員會報告一下這第20條大概是在公聽會當中 被說明為是我們這次稅審法的另外一個重點就是減少過去複查的程序 造成納稅輪它跟稅金機關之間相關最後的決定的延宕那還講到了包括數字追加這邊特別 等一下 翁委員"},{"start":20006.77,"end":20029.604,"text":"沒有因為這裡面要說明一下然後這裡面因為還有包括有立法說明的第四點有特別提到的多次提到的稅捐基增法準用或適用這規定所以我會是不是要讓財稅機關代表補充表示意見那我們再來做委員的詢問請問那麼關於第20條那麼財稅機關代表有沒有要做補充請"},{"start":20035.175,"end":20060.02,"text":"這一條當然是總而主義的落實但是因為我們它是就同一個課稅事件另行做成新處分那因為我們現在當然就是就這個稅監機關來講的話有的時候譬如我們舉一個例子譬如說你營業稅好了營業稅因為我們兩個月是申報一次課徵一次那所謂的同一課稅事件"},{"start":20060.8,"end":20083.655,"text":"這邊沒有很清楚的說明到底是就同因為以這個司法院的這個說明來看的話就舉的例子是像綜合所得稅像盈利事業所得稅這種是年度課稅的比較沒有問題因為我們就是第二次我發現申請稅就是並到前面的一期計算但是營業稅因為它每兩個月為一期"},{"start":20085.296,"end":20108.061,"text":"那到底這個營業稅的認定所謂同意課稅事件怎麼認定在這邊並沒有講得很清楚那我們是建議是不是在說明裡面可以解釋清可以說明清楚因為營業稅的課徵它其實是每一個交易每一個行為就是一個課稅事件那也許你兩個月前的是因為你漏開發票可能兩個月後的是因為你這個位移規定給予憑證或者是怎麼樣所以它的情況可能會不同"},{"start":20114.762,"end":20134.353,"text":"所以我們是建議這邊可能要講清楚就是我們對營業稅部分應該以每一期每一期作為一個統一課稅事件來認定那另外就是涉及到的就是因為他現在把這個我們第二次核課譬如說你現在被我查獲逃漏稅捐然後你原來我們有第一次核定你已經走到行政訴訟了"},{"start":20135.393,"end":20141.555,"text":"那可是可能第二次你又被同一個公司可能被我們查獲說你這個租稅減免的部分申報不實還是怎麼樣那也許我們就會做就是另經發現應該徵起的稅件我們就會以現行的作業我們會另外核定好發第二次的稅單然後那稅議員他仍然可以對我們第二次的核定不服就走"},{"start":20158.679,"end":20166.143,"text":"現行的救濟程序他可以複查然後訴願再走行政訴訟那當然有些案件其實納稅人對我們第二次的核定他是沒有意見的也就是他覺得第二次核定是沒問題他錯了或者說他應該繳這個稅捐他就不爭執如果他不爭執的時候是不是也要依照現行的規定就變成說也要全部給他飛躍到這個行政訴訟的程序一併進入行政訴訟的程序來辦理"},{"start":20186.152,"end":20209.289,"text":"那這一點我們是覺得也許如果那些人已經不增值是不是要還是要走這個現行這個草案的規定來做處理這一點我們是覺得似乎可以考慮一下如果他沒有增值是不是就直接就就不需要走這個飛躍程序併入原來的行政訴訟程序那如果說他有增值當然就我們併入現在的程序來辦理這是我們目前想到的一些問題希望能夠提出來討論"},{"start":20215.855,"end":20235.818,"text":"謝謝次長果然次長對稅很熟我們聽起來格外親切我們在選民服務的時候常處理到您說的這個案子就是第二次核克的內容有可能不爭議那麼要不要做數字追加強制進行還有營業稅是兩個月一次這也常常發生所以這個部分看看現場委員有沒有意見來 請問委員"},{"start":20238.147,"end":20266.298,"text":"我想第二十條其實還有另外一個問題就是固然是落實總額主義然後讓所有的相關的訴訟就一次性解決可是如果說再一次的科稅的處分那麼會不會假設它是增加核定稅額了會不會有違反實務上不利變更禁止原則的問題就它可能原來第一次核定的稅額是比較少的"},{"start":20267.581,"end":20281.839,"text":"但是他再一次核定變更的處分的時候他又多科了那這樣的話會不會違反我們在訴訟法有訴訟法裡面向來的實務間接有這個不利變更禁止原則"},{"start":20283.715,"end":20302.392,"text":"好 我們先分兩個部分 一個是翁委員的部分 先回答那另外呢 請提案機關對於剛剛財稅機關所提的包括營業稅 包括對於其他的稅種的平安所得稅的第二次的核課有些不爭議的部分有沒有要強制併入 那請先就翁委員的部分做說明好 廳長請"},{"start":20305.261,"end":20329.118,"text":"我想先解釋一下那個當然什麼叫做同一科稅事件這一個我們在研修會的時候也是委員們討論的非常的熱烈那我們也會預期到就是說之後也是希望給不管是給基增機關實務或者是行政法院稅務專庭的法官們有一個操作"},{"start":20329.918,"end":20355.866,"text":"那我們也委請了老師稅法老師後續幫我們進行研議希望能夠規範的更明確那這個是我們後續一定會做的因為稅捐的種類稅務實在是太多了那我們目前舉的例子就是說以所得稅為例這是目前研修會裡面大家認為最明確的部分那當然就是說像週期稅營業稅是週期稅那這個時候是怎麼去認定它"},{"start":20358.607,"end":20382.86,"text":"去界定他同一瞌睡事件的範圍那我想這個是我們後續一定會請老師繼續幫我們進行研議然後之後還會有相關的討論那我們也一定會請財政部繼續幫我們表示意見我想我們的努力的目標就是大家能夠有共識實務上操作是沒有問題的委員的問題回答了嗎"},{"start":20388.957,"end":20403.552,"text":"那個翁委員的意思是說如果今天機關他先做了50萬元的稅額的處分那當事人不服嘛就進而進到行政訴訟來徵訟後來機關又發現有要補稅他又補了一個20萬的稅對不對那其實如果當事人不服"},{"start":20410.179,"end":20428.322,"text":"他也是會徵送那所以其實機關就這一個事件就是一個70萬元他認定的就是一個70萬元的稅額所以其實沒有我們覺得沒有不利於變更那只是讓納稅一輪可以把所有的通通納進來"},{"start":20430.124,"end":20451.882,"text":"一起來處理那至於剛才財政部代表講的就是說會不會有補稅處分那其實後來當事人其實不增值那其實我們在這裡只是把它設定成為程序上它就是法定數字變更成為訴訟審理的標的但是既然當事人不增值"},{"start":20452.843,"end":20459.287,"text":"那當然就最後可能就是機關就是維持機關當時的認定因為當時不會有爭執我覺得這個是訴訟最後判決的結果的問題"},{"start":20465.472,"end":20484.586,"text":"了解就是程序上可以走這個路徑,實務上根據實際發生的增值或不增值,他要去做選擇還是這一套流程是可以用的,是這個意思那我問委員,就您說的什麼,剛舉的例子什麼五十萬、二十萬的部分,您的需要機關代表再做補充說明嗎?"},{"start":20485.339,"end":20505.349,"text":"不過就是這個地方的話其實還是蠻就是有法律學者他們就是有這樣的疑慮了因為這個確實如果說稅捐基金機關又在這個審理的訴訟期間然後做成了新處分增加了核定稅額那對當事人來講其實他就是一個不利益對"},{"start":20511.546,"end":20538.789,"text":"合併之後基本上我認為說要這樣好不好因為剛剛稅捐機關有表達他們包括週期稅的問題那麼剛剛機關代表提案機關代表也說明了你們後續會在稅法上去做跟護者規定但是就條文的本文的文字上不會產生那個問題就是你們後來研修之後的實務見解跟條文目前的設計並不會有任何的漢格就對了"},{"start":20540.043,"end":20556.757,"text":"好 那其他委員的看法呢其實剛剛提到那個同一課稅事件看起來現在這個司法院這裡也說未來還要再跟學者們做研究可是你這個條文一出去之後大家立刻就會對於這個議題要就是要確定那個同一課稅事件的那個範圍所以我認為說這個部分還是要把它寫清楚啦對 那今天這個"},{"start":20568.836,"end":20577.845,"text":"這個條例基本上也是比較有爭議的我建議是不是就先保留我們先暫保留好那麼21條那麼是不是我們進行到21條請機關代表說明提案機關"},{"start":20587.46,"end":20608.934,"text":"21條是規定就是在上訴審程序其實因為我們的行政訴訟是採三級二審所以其實我們一個每一個訴訟個案只有兩個審計第一審是事實審第二審是法律審那所以在上訴審程序因為它是法律審原則上是不可以做數字變更追加或提起反訴的"},{"start":20609.694,"end":20626.17,"text":"因為如果做數字變更追加其實可能會變動事實因為法律省沒有辦法去審酌事實因此原則上是禁止的但是我們在這裡又設了一個但書的規定就是例外的容許"},{"start":20626.87,"end":20641.066,"text":"稅捐機關可以在上述審程序就同一個瞌睡事件另行做成新的處分所以其實我們放得非常寬甚至到上述審我們都還容許機關如果你真的"},{"start":20641.927,"end":20662.917,"text":"釐清了稅額你可以重新做一個正確的最新的一個科稅處分那就也產生因為它產生這個法定數字變更的結果那所以上訴審在這個時候呢如果牽涉到要重新認定一些事實那他就會把原判決廢棄"},{"start":20664.238,"end":20686.767,"text":"然後發回或發交管轄的第一審行政法院但是這裡是因為法定廢棄的適由是因為機關重新做成新的處分而不是以原判決有違背法令的適由為必要那以上報告也是可能聽起來是訴訟經濟的目的啦那請問那個財政機關代表對於這樣的設計是否認同"},{"start":20691.041,"end":20715.31,"text":"其實我們這部分原則上沒什麼意見但是他也是就是同樣就是剛才我們提到的就是病二十條的問題就是他病同處分的問題病同處分好那麼我想因為二十條已經保留了那二十一條是對上述程序那上述程序規定如果沒有問題的話問題還是回到二十條我們去做更細部的釐清那請問委員會對於第二十一條這上述程序規定是否同意那"},{"start":20719.151,"end":20726.563,"text":"二十跟二十一都暫保留 好來接下來請看二十二條二十一要補離婚啦來來 莊委員我是覺得二十一條這樣的設計道還好啊"},{"start":20734.935,"end":20758.755,"text":"那些玻璃二十那個你容許 你像譬如說你在徵訟當中你容許處分機關去做一個對於人民有利的一個處分 這是好事這個我看就叫司法院這個 這樣的版本那個會診我們委員的"},{"start":20760.885,"end":20778.844,"text":"不同意見大概就是說就剛剛的提案機關代表是說他已經很清楚講了這是上述程序的規定那如果說原處分機關做成新的處分那不是因為原處分有誤這時候的發揮的方式表達的意思是做區隔的我想是更清楚"},{"start":20779.485,"end":20802.887,"text":"因為我們是要減少那個訴訟的過程中的一些重複累罪啦因為這個稅審法很大的一個目的就要訴訟經濟啦剛剛我們開宗明義在第一條就已經討論過了所以是不是徵詢委員的意見聽起來莊委員的意見也不道理那剛剛我們問委員在意的20條我們先暫保留了那21條只是處理20條的上述程序20條保留啦"},{"start":20804.684,"end":20822.807,"text":"好 那如果可以的話那我們21條在司法院提案通過 謝謝那第22條請提案機關代表說明是的 第22條它規範的是指說今天如果稅捐機關他先做成了一個科稅處分"},{"start":20824.522,"end":20840.536,"text":"先科100萬的稅額結果納稅醫護人員沒有不服這個處分已經確定了後來稅軍機關又發現說還有要補科稅的情形所以他就又做了一個增加金額的一個變更處分100萬可能變成500萬"},{"start":20844.56,"end":20860.663,"text":"那這個時候人民訴請撤銷因為第一個處分他沒有徵送第一個處分已經刑事確定了他最後徵送的是從一百萬變到五百萬的這個處分那所以我們"},{"start":20861.244,"end":20883.986,"text":"基於尊重已經刑事確定已經不具可徵送性的第一個處分我們要尊重他刑事的確定力所以這個時候明定說如果你對這個你人民再來徵送的話只能夠就增加的那400萬元的部分來徵職這樣子那以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":20885.066,"end":20898.724,"text":"好 請問委員會對這個條文有沒有其他部分意見應該很清楚啦齁因為剛審過預算他都知道這個意思齁已經減列一百萬了 同意了就減列了後來又發現了要再凍結五百萬那五百萬的部分另外處理不能再回過頭來 連減列一百萬都有意見齁"},{"start":20901.704,"end":20927.744,"text":"那我們第22條就照司法院提案通過好 接下來請23條請提案 經關代表說明是的 23條就是因為稅務這個科稅處分常常有基礎處分就是在某一個前面的一個基礎處分的基礎上然後它進而做成後面的這一個處分就叫做後續處分那如果這個"},{"start":20929.885,"end":20949.076,"text":"當事人對這個基礎處分並沒有爭執那到後面後續處分你才去提起撤銷訴訟的話那也一樣就不可以再就基礎處分規制的事項再來爭執但是我們也設了一個但書"},{"start":20950.137,"end":20965.088,"text":"就是怕這樣太嚴苛就是說如果是難以期待當事人與法定期間就基礎處分提起行政救濟的話就不在此限為什麼是因為有的時候有一些的基礎處分其實他可能他並"},{"start":20966.369,"end":20994.389,"text":"不具有行政處分典型的外觀人民可能不知道這到底是不是一個處分或這到底是不是一個基礎處分甚至他沒有附有教室的條款因此我們才設了這樣一個但書的規定以上報告 謝謝好那麼這個原理跟剛剛前面那條是一樣的就基礎處分跟後續處分如果基礎處分不爭議後續處分的爭議不能影響到前述基礎處分的確定"},{"start":20995.373,"end":21005.047,"text":"那麼請問委員會對於這個條文有沒有其他的意見來請翁委員其實我發現在這一次的這個稅審法裡面這行政"},{"start":21005.94,"end":21025.903,"text":"司法院這裡所提出的法條有很多都還是給行政法院有很大的空間就是你一開始你原則上又說他不能夠增職可是又再給當事人又一個空間然後到時候由行政法院再來決定他到底能救基礎處分來提起行政救濟"},{"start":21028.632,"end":21053.364,"text":"所以如果是這樣的話是不是在前面就不用但書你就在前面可能有一個原則現在條文就是還是能不能就繼續提起行政糾結這些事情就由法院自己來來來來決定就好你說明但書規定原則上是不可以嘛對不得就該訴不得於該訴訟最基礎處分的規制為爭議"},{"start":21056.607,"end":21082.155,"text":"但是你又有一個但書所以其實看前面有些條文的設計是一樣的就回過頭來又還是要由行政法院來決定如果是這樣的話那為什麼不就在前面的23條這裡就讓行政法院他可以針對有些特殊的狀況來決定到底他受不受理就當事人可以就基礎處分的事情來提起行政究竟這件事"},{"start":21083.412,"end":21097.516,"text":"報告委員這一條規定的其實是在基礎處分他已經不能救濟了是他對後續處分在救濟的訴訟中他還可不可以再來增值前面已經不可以徵送的基礎處分那我們為什麼會設這樣一個戰書的規定"},{"start":21100.077,"end":21122.032,"text":"是因為實務上我們覺得這是保障人民訴訟權的一個措施啦在實務上確實常常會碰到有一些你人民可能沒有辦法辨別說原來這個是行政處分我不曉得當時我就我不曉得當時我就應該要針對這一個救濟那如果完全阻斷他的這個救濟途徑"},{"start":21122.692,"end":21134.097,"text":"甚至到後續的處分你還沒有辦法再回過頭來檢視基礎處分的話那我們會覺得說對人民的訴訟權力保障是比較不足的因此我們才設計了這樣一個單數的規定"},{"start":21135.606,"end":21154.694,"text":"好 謝謝提案機關代表說明第六條的規定是不是就第六條的但因為你那是但書規定要適用第六條那第六條您這裡寫的是行政法院與必要時的命行政機關輔佐依照參加訴訟就是要有行政法院的出面才能讓這個但書規定發生啟動是不是這個意思"},{"start":21159.477,"end":21176.457,"text":"當事人可以在訴訟中他對後續處分訴訟中他可以爭執說其實我前面的那個基礎處分我不曉得有不可歸則於我的事由所以我才沒有在當時去救濟是給當事人這樣子一個抗辯的機會那如果認為法院認為可採"},{"start":21177.799,"end":21202.274,"text":"那就可以法院審的範圍就可以擴及到前面的基礎處分去那只是因為涉及到前面的基礎處分所以我們才會要適用第六條的規定要基礎處分的那個機關來輔助參加訴訟就是當它有這樣但書的情況發生的時候適用到第六條把原來的基礎處分的機關也拉進來嘛我剛剛看的就是這個意思嘛"},{"start":21204.119,"end":21207.741,"text":"主席我們可不可以提出一個請求應該算是請求就是因為這個稅審法它裡面提到很多什麼叫做基礎處分什麼叫做後續處分"},{"start":21223.608,"end":21227.852,"text":"但是實務上什麼叫做基礎處分什麼叫後續處分其實在認定上可能會有一些爭議而且我們雖然機關同仁也並不是完全充分了解所以是不是這邊也希望司法院這個案子通過以後也能夠也許用一個令式還是用一個公告還是用一個像剛才那個同一課稅事件這樣一個就是後續的討論跟更詳細的能夠讓"},{"start":21250.41,"end":21268.218,"text":"我們外界瞭解 也讓我們所有的學院主管同仁能夠瞭解納稅人義務人員也更瞭解因為納稅義務人員真的 你問一般納稅人什麼叫做基礎處分 什麼叫做後續處分他不會 他不懂的所以是不是可以麻煩那個司法院這邊可以再做一些後續的研究跟補充"},{"start":21268.578,"end":21297.514,"text":"了解 主席跟大家說明那個法案條文通過後假設大家覺得還是需要有不是說明的部分的補充而是用附帶決議在要求未來後續的行為剛剛有提到有一些研修會或者是剛剛我們次長所提到的因為稅務機關對實務上基礎處分後續處分要釐清需要有更多的一些討論那其實這個東西若不妨礙到我們法條的完備之外"},{"start":21298.334,"end":21312.679,"text":"我們可以用附帶決議處理啦那我是建議說這樣的附帶決議內容可以在我們審的時候不管是保留暫保留還是通過都可以就附帶決的方式把大家的意識容納進去所以我是請教委員會是不是剛剛就機關"},{"start":21315.321,"end":21342.197,"text":"說的部分基礎處分後續處分的部分有可能我們要求那個稅務機關跟審查審理機關在他們的認定上有後續的要求讓他們能夠更一致性來 翁委員對 其實這也是我本來剛剛也想講因為不管是基礎處分或後續處分在現在的相關的訴訟法或是有哪個法規裡面是有特別是這樣子寫法的"},{"start":21343.429,"end":21371.309,"text":"對 這個可能也請司法院說明一下而且確實對於一般老百姓來講不要說一般老百姓可能連一般稅務人員都搞不清楚什麼叫基礎處分或後續處分但我再看到這個概念的時候就會想到這個常常都是可能從行政法學就是就行政法的法學裡上面延伸過來但是你又把它付諸於條文的文字那未來確實會產生一些困擾"},{"start":21372.57,"end":21398.102,"text":"對 所以為什麼沒有在一開始的時候就想說要把基礎處分或後續處分的定義把它定義清楚請提案機關代表說明報告委員基礎處分 後續處分確實是我們這部法案所新引進的一個名詞但是我們在第10條的時候第10條的第7項我們有就基礎處分做了一個定義"},{"start":21399.542,"end":21424.037,"text":"所謂的基礎處分是指對科稅處分財閥處分或其他租稅法上金錢給付處分有拘束力的行政處分在第十條的立法說明第七點我們也舉了一些的例子什麼叫做基礎處分什麼叫做後續處分像我們舉的例子其中一個就是說像文化局"},{"start":21424.597,"end":21446.398,"text":"文化局登錄某建物為歷史建築那稅捐機關就據以辦理免徵房屋稅及地價稅的處分這樣子那所以因為這是文化資產保存法的規定因此登錄"},{"start":21447.139,"end":21474.833,"text":"建物為歷史建築的這個處分對於後面做成的免徵房屋稅跟地價稅的處分就具有基礎處分跟後續處分的關係所以我們在立法理由已經有舉了一些例子那當然委員剛才的指教我們也有預想到確實這是一個新引進的一個法律上的名詞那我們也會後續"},{"start":21476.335,"end":21491.429,"text":"也有請學者繼續幫我們研究那我想跟委員報告的是如果這一部法案能夠三讀通過的話那其實到它正式施行我們一定會定相當的期間"},{"start":21492.23,"end":21517.553,"text":"因為這裡面還有就是陳儒委員剛才講什麼叫基礎處分什麼叫後續處分或者是什麼叫做統一科稅事件我們希望能夠透過學者的研究或者是跟稅捐機關或者是相關的團體一起研議大家有相當的共識之後我們才會讓這部法案施行 謝謝好 等一下那個夫妙要補充還是翁委員要先講翁委員"},{"start":21522.554,"end":21541.711,"text":"在過去我們其實也都累積了蠻多經驗的在新的法制通過那個時候他會有一些新的那個概念產生像過去我自己那個金手組那個主辦的那個大法庭就是那我們那個就是在後續我們的經驗我們就是會做QA就是在"},{"start":21542.492,"end":21567.568,"text":"做QA就是對於這些那個概念剛剛所提的這些概念或者說它實際上操作的一些那個疑義呢我們會在那個QA中詳細的把它定名那這些QA都會放在就是網站供給那個一般民眾就是他們要使用的時候就可以進來立刻可以看到很簡便的像是那一些流程圖或者是說這一種名詞的那個解釋讓他們方便可以使用這個法規以上"},{"start":21569.229,"end":21593.648,"text":"好來翁委員請是如果說是以剛剛那個廳長這裡解釋在這個第七項裡面後面說明理由就是以登陸建物為例使建築的處分為例所以這個基礎處這個處分叫做基礎處分然後後面的免徵房屋稅跟地價稅這個才是叫做後續處分應該是這樣的意思吧"},{"start":21595.936,"end":21599.699,"text":"陳庭長 剛剛王委員在詢問就是說是登錄建物為歷史建築的處分就為基礎處分那後續的處分就是指的是免徵房屋稅及地價稅的這個處分"},{"start":21611.269,"end":21626.733,"text":"是那你們這樣的話其實就理由來講的話你可能這裡不要應該是說前者譬如說前者這個什麼登陸歷史建築的處分為基礎處分然後後面的免徵房屋稅地價稅為後續處分這樣的說明會比較清楚你現在講說兩者又為基礎處分及後續處分的關係其實會不是很"},{"start":21634.355,"end":21650.073,"text":"不是很清楚這樣子的一個情況所以我其實真的蠻擔心啊因為就算是你們之後用案例來解釋可雖然是刮一漏完因為有太多的稅務的這個類型那麼就財政部"},{"start":21651.955,"end":21672.595,"text":"這個次長這邊你們就是怎麼你們在過去實務上怎麼樣去解讀像這樣的一個情況譬如說在科稅在防護稅的處分那他科徵的事實就是他科徵的基礎就是以他的那個建物已經被登記為歷史建物你們是怎麼樣來形容這樣的概念"},{"start":21673.773,"end":21695.237,"text":"主席這邊先整理一下 剛剛貿委員講到的是我們法案的第14頁他講到了在第7點的基礎處分跟後續處分目前的立法說明是解兩者為基礎處分及後續處分的關係那如果對於比較不是那麼理解的人 他可能會說前者是基礎處分 後者是後續處分 更明確啦"},{"start":21695.757,"end":21725.126,"text":"既然立法說明要讓人家了解嘛你說這兩者是父子關係想誰是父誰是子一看就知道但是還是希望說父親是誰兒子是誰父子關係這麼明確就是這個意思大概是這樣好不好那個在我們財政局跟代表次長答覆之前呢我大概先做一些可能的處理方式首先一個就是我們第十條的立法說明剛剛翁委員提出一些指證我們後續如果可以的話比照剛剛前面的立法說明我們可以做一些修正"},{"start":21725.706,"end":21751.107,"text":"那第二個呢 剛剛陳庭長在副部長說之前你們說後續也會跟稅務機關做一些研商那這個會在施行法定定 施行日期之前你們會把一些相關的配套寫好剛剛那個描述很完整如果變成一個附帶決的文字的話那就會讓立法者更放心說通過之後 那麼會有在施行日期之前你們會做這些事情"},{"start":21751.867,"end":21763.454,"text":"我想這個把它明確化那這樣的話我們的第23條大概23沒有錯23的部分大概有這樣的情況那請我們那個理事長要做補充回答剛剛翁委員的問題"},{"start":21770.418,"end":21787.7,"text":"謝謝主席主要還是剛才提到因為基礎處分跟後續處分的文字都是在新的法律裡面才看到的我們其實之前也為了希望能夠協助稅監監官了解新法這個草案未來怎麼運作"},{"start":21788.641,"end":21794.289,"text":"我們也有麻煩的那個司法院來協助我們來認定一下什麼叫做基礎處分什麼叫做後續處分因為這個條文不只是涉及到就是說像他這邊剛才我們23條提到的他可不可以繼續提起訴訟"},{"start":21805.363,"end":21823.249,"text":"其實中間還涉及到草案像第十條第六項有規定說基礎處分如果經行政法院裁定停止執行的話後續處分也要一併停止執行那到底這個範圍到底是什麼樣的確定明確的概念所以我們希望就是說還是後續能夠"},{"start":21827.571,"end":21847.252,"text":"請司法院來協助我們大家一起討論一下雖然我們已經去問過他們他們也給我們一些意見但是有一部分還是不是很清楚所以我們是希望就是說未來如果法案在施行前能夠大家能夠更清楚的就各個不同的稅法的規定或者是像剛才那個跨機關的"},{"start":21848.413,"end":21861.466,"text":"前面是文化局或文化部認定的然後後面是我們課稅處分的依據的那這個部分未來要怎麼樣來認定其實涉及到的法律相當的多可能到時候再麻煩司法院來協助 謝謝"},{"start":21863.656,"end":21890.027,"text":"這樣好不好那麼第23條的部分我們是不是先暫保留那待會我們併同第6條還有剛剛的附帶決議這些我們一起處理這樣比較完備啦好不好那委員會如果同意的話我們這條先暫保留請趕快那個提案機關趕快把23條跟那個附帶決議的部分把它表達出來好那麼第24條的部分"},{"start":21892.126,"end":21915.841,"text":"機關代表要不要說明,我看就很簡單其實24條是因為我們前5條的規定也就是落實總額主義配套措施都是針對科稅處分那但是還有關於罰款處分的部分我們認為也依器可以適用,所以規定在24條好,各位委員那24條是不是我們照司法院提案文字通過"},{"start":21920.039,"end":21920.88,"text":"提起的刑事訴訟是有19條到23條的適用"},{"start":21944.434,"end":21963.923,"text":"那個是不是請提案金安代表 再針對翁委員的詢問再跟他說明清楚因為其實在稅法上面的這個罰還的金額常常是跟核定的稅額有高度的聯動的那所以我們認為說基於相同的法例因此我們認為說前面五條的規定在處罰處分也可以一併適用 謝謝"},{"start":21967.039,"end":21979.629,"text":"好稅務處分跟罰款處分都是可以適用前面的條文好那如果同意的話我們24條就照司法院提案通過那因為25條我們暫時先不處理因為早上就有說了我們先從26條之後繼續推進好那麼第26條請提案機關代表說明"},{"start":21986.234,"end":22003.124,"text":"26條就是規定的就是本於核實科稅的原則行政法院做裁判的時候要計算科稅基礎的數額這是原則性的規定那第二項的規定就是說但是在"},{"start":22003.564,"end":22025.104,"text":"一些這種已經證明當事人有瞌睡事實但是可能就他的數額的計算或者是證明經過調查還是不能確定或者是虛廢過去的情形之下可以允許做依法來推計那接著後面的規定就是我們很詳細的列在了一些的推計的方法"},{"start":22025.925,"end":22038.069,"text":"怎麼樣經過這些這四種的方法看能夠找出最切近真實數額的一個推計的方式達到公平納稅的目的謝謝好那麼請問在黨委員對於第26條內容是否同意"},{"start":22063.704,"end":22071.771,"text":"好那麼委員會如果這程序上的規定如果沒有意見因為他是要做依法為推計核心就是要依法推計"},{"start":22074.165,"end":22102.995,"text":"社會事件的審理法院就要把它計算出來不是再扔回去給社會行政機關那如果沒有意見我們第26條是按司法院提案通過請看第27條請提案機關代表說明本條其實是為了減輕法官的負擔簡化判決書的製作因此規定說如果行政法院認同原處分複查決定或訴願決定的理由是可以在裁判中來引用的謝謝"},{"start":22105.014,"end":22130.897,"text":"好那請問在場委員第27條就是一個程序上可以引用的這個依據那如果來請歐委員這個現在行政訴訟法就已經這麼做了是不是報告委員目前行政訴訟法只有上級審可以引用下級審的判決那引用複查決定原處分或溯源決定的理由目前是沒有規定"},{"start":22132.011,"end":22157.229,"text":"那如果這樣的話為什麼要特別要讓稅務行政的案子就是行政法院就直接引用原處分或複雜決定我們只是想說這事情應該是未來一體要修行政訴訟法未來如果通過的話我想為了簡化裁判書的製作減輕法官負擔我們行政訴訟法應該也會配合做如果有機會就會配合做相應的規定"},{"start":22159.952,"end":22173.511,"text":"那我認為說這不是應該要在整個行政訴訟法的時候一併去修那你變成講說現在整個行政法院然後針對稅務行政的案件的審理那麼他就可以特別講話但一般的又不行我的意思說就不需要在27條這邊來特別定"},{"start":22175.794,"end":22192.074,"text":"我們非常感謝委員但是我們現在因為沒有機會去修那個行政訴訟法你知道要修都非常困難那所以我們是不是現在這裡先那個推進我要怎麼說呢副秘書長我要跟您講其實你們司法院"},{"start":22193.183,"end":22220.218,"text":"我看了你們提的一些優先法案這讓我瞠目結舌我在這個上個會期我就看到司法院提的這個優先法案四個案子我覺得非常好奇明明有很多法律法案要修但是卻排不進你們的前面的四個法案覺得都是什麼這家法官助理的優先那修律師法所以像剛剛講的類似像這樣子可以簡化法官"},{"start":22223.401,"end":22241.359,"text":"這個簡化法官做裁判的時候的一些程序的這種條文就很重要啊你們要趕快修啊對如果說你們覺得時間來不及我幫你們提也可以但是呢事實上就是要把它割裂處理我基本上並不認同這樣子的一個做法"},{"start":22242.028,"end":22261.811,"text":"好現在委員的意見就是說如果這個精神是應該在行政訴訟裡面一體適用的那我們以行政訴訟法就一併修嘛委員也可以提那因為現在行政訴訟法沒有案子在審所以利用特別法稅審法我們就先行那後續"},{"start":22263.012,"end":22286.385,"text":"行政輸送法連這樣的去動是最好是這個意思所以你們先爭取特別法先有然後再爭取我們的普通法同時並行大概是這個概念這個沒有絕對的對錯啦就做好事都認同只是程序上是要等著全部都一起做還是特別法先做是這樣概念那請問委員還是我們副秘書長你要再做補充針對翁委員的"},{"start":22287.725,"end":22300.555,"text":"我建議要就是一併修啦 不要特別拿出來修那教科書也會要修制裁法 制裁法院法的然後這個其他的都是修了特別法 這明明就涉及到就行政"},{"start":22302.182,"end":22311.633,"text":"訴訟法裡面就是整個制度一併考量我覺得比較完整請提案機關代表說明一下因為我們這個是新創法稅審法是新創法那如果沒有這27條那麼會不會造成我們稅審法這個新創法的效能打折扣因為畢竟新創法是整包"},{"start":22321.904,"end":22338.479,"text":"那整包裡面放一個這樣的這個東西那如果這個沒有放進去那要等到行政事務創法一起修那會不會我們新通過的稅審法因為少了27條以至於在於程序經濟上就可惜那麼一點點是不是請說明那個新創法跟修訂法是不一樣的這新創法全部都是新的"},{"start":22349.743,"end":22364.271,"text":"報告委員 因為其實這個規定我們設想的是說其實有一些的法律見解已經是在稅金機關跟司法實務已經是很穩定共通性的見解了"},{"start":22364.631,"end":22384.105,"text":"那如果稅捐在這個原處分覆查決定溯源決定已經表示了這一個目前稅務領域已經很穩定的間接我們是覺得說那法官寫判決的經歷是不是就這一部分可以省下來我們更著重在更需要法官用心用智慧判斷的地方"},{"start":22387.515,"end":22396.811,"text":"那其他委員呢 因為這個我知道你們就是程序經濟讓法官用力在需要花金的地方都有道理啦 那就看看委員會的意見"},{"start":22397.838,"end":22418.498,"text":"我的建議還是說這條就保留,因為我希望透過這條來督促司法院趕快提行政訴訟法的修正說不定有機會所以要趕快提啊,那這邊就不用修啦,你們提出來這個修法我一定支持你們"},{"start":22419.836,"end":22436.575,"text":"這個程序上這邊私下提一下就是如果說行政訴訟法就是針對這條來修那因為本案如果通過要送二三讀到時候該條文只要送到委員會我們會抽出一起併案禁敷二讀過去這段時間以來我們立法院院會常常做這樣的事情"},{"start":22439.866,"end":22465.523,"text":"我們次長請說明我想補充說明一下因為這個條文它本身是針對原處分複查決定或訴願決定因為只有我們稅務事件審理有所謂的複查決定其他的行政訴訟沒有複查決定這個程序所以如果它這邊如果只是修行政訴訟法的話很可能變成在稅務案件上面複查決定的部分它就沒辦法引用"},{"start":22472.794,"end":22486.464,"text":"就是到時候可是新創法這樣子大家再想一想好不好再想一想我們先暫保留說不定大家待會回頭想說也沒有差怎麼樣好那我們現在請看28條請提案機關代表說明"},{"start":22492.9,"end":22520.718,"text":"28條是規定就是說行政法院如果認為稅捐基金機關做成的罰款處分有裁量違法的時候這個時候賦予行政法院可以自行決定有裁罰的權限可以直接決定說到底是該罰多少錢因而撤銷或變更原處分這個處罰處分的全部或者是一部"},{"start":22521.078,"end":22547.59,"text":"那因為目前的實務就是如果涉及到行政機關處罰有裁量權的話那行政法院具體指出他的裁量怠惰或裁量違法之處之後我們沒有自請處理而是把他請原處分機關再重圍處分但是我們認為說就是如果行政法院已經"},{"start":22549.391,"end":22577.393,"text":"審理之後認定有裁量怠惰例如如果原處分機關處罰一百萬但是我們認為說他因為沒有考量到哪一些因素其實考量這些因素之後應該是以八十萬元為適當的話那我們就可以不用再把這個案件再把它退回到基增機關去處理那行政法院直接就可以在八十萬元的範圍內維持然後只撤銷二十萬元的部分以上報告"},{"start":22579.857,"end":22600.372,"text":"莊委員我看所有的條文就這個條文最好了 通過了來 翁委員請莊委員你只聽了其中其一這個還是有一種可能這個法院如果說他變更罰還處分增加了呢剛剛這個廳長的舉例是減少"},{"start":22603.237,"end":22617.448,"text":"對不對原來他處罰一百萬然後後來行政法院認為說只要處八十萬就好少二十萬但是有沒有可能這個行政法院認為說其實原來罰一百萬不合理要增加為一百二十萬你說法條的文在上面看不出來啊對不對你有沒有寫說這裡有不利於變跟禁止原則的適用"},{"start":22633.299,"end":22634.581,"text":"來 那個陳廷長請說"},{"start":22637.051,"end":22663.359,"text":"其實委員剛才指教的部分因為我們是認為說當然不可能因為我們一定是在原告聲明的範圍內而且也有不利益不可能人民打訴訟越打越不利也有不利益變更禁止原則的適用那委員剛才的就教我們是不是可以在立法理由裡面這件事情把它說明確避免有疑義"},{"start":22665.461,"end":22687.399,"text":"很好 那這樣的話我們先等那個立法理由說明 拿出來因為我覺得這很重要 現在我們其實也不能那麼相信這個法院不會做出超乎人民預期以外的事情所以把這個條文寫清楚啦 要不然就是在立法理由上面要把它寫清楚 有不利辯跟禁止原則的適用"},{"start":22688.629,"end":22702.236,"text":"好 那麼跟委員報告 我們剛剛第20條有一個附帶決議那第28條我們有一個立法說明的修正補充那麼待會他們會把文字擬好之後我們再來處理那第28條我們先暫保留 第29條請提案機關代表說明30是一塊的 要一併說明"},{"start":22719.244,"end":22739.979,"text":"29條其實我們是規定法院判決的方式就做了一些的規範其實它的第一條就是說如果你今天認為原處分確實有違法侵害原告的權益或法律上利益的話那行政法院就要撤銷原處分複查決定跟溯院決定"},{"start":22742.881,"end":22761.471,"text":"然後第二項就是原則上行政法院你就要自行認定稅額了你可以去變更為其他的稅額金額或者是數額這個是我們希望法院就是直接認定出一個具體的稅額出來那第三項是"},{"start":22762.552,"end":22778.159,"text":"退而求其次就是說因為其實稅額的計算其實有的時候是很複雜的一件事那行政法院畢竟人力有限那我們認為說如果行政法院自行認定"},{"start":22782.582,"end":22799.432,"text":"我們就讓法官可以具體的在判決理由裡面來講說原處分到底哪裡違法認定或者是你哪裡漏味認定的一些事實或法律關係究竟是什麼設定了很明確的一些的框架讓"},{"start":22801.233,"end":22815.498,"text":"稅捐機關在法院所判決意旨的這個框架下去重新計算稅額第四項就是規定說如果今天"},{"start":22816.318,"end":22833.21,"text":"是牽涉到事實還有調查必要而且是比較繁複的繁雜的案件行政法院自行調查顯然有困難的話那而且考量到當事人的利益的話那這個時候才例外的讓"},{"start":22834.571,"end":22850.421,"text":"行政法院的判決可以只去撤銷原處分複查決定跟訴願決定然後讓原處分機關另為處分但是必須在理由中也要做相關的理由的序明以上報告"},{"start":22851.682,"end":22870.425,"text":"二九三十有連帶關係,是不是請稅捐機關代表要不要做說明,因為二十九就有提到行政法院可以命稅捐機關另為處分或計算稅額三十條也有提到原文條文本文當中就要稅捐機關等等,是不是請稅務機關代表補充"},{"start":22873.724,"end":22893.021,"text":"29條的末項跟30條其實就是我們現行的做法那只是說29條其實是法院是強化行政法院的自為裁判啦其實那個是跟就是簡化整個流程好所以就是現實務的做法把它文字化了好那請問委員會對於第29條是否同意"},{"start":22900.336,"end":22913.194,"text":"好 29條 照司法院提案文字通過 第30條是否也同意好 同意好 接下來我們看 接下來是第31條 請提案機關代表說明"},{"start":22915.637,"end":22940.624,"text":"31條是關於判決記判例的問題我們知道如果一個訴訟他的訴訟標的經過法院確定判決之後就會發生記判例也就會產生遮斷效也就是就相關的爭議是不可以再另外起訴請求增值的但是我們也考慮到說因為我們這個如果把訴訟"},{"start":22943.025,"end":22957.431,"text":"確定判決的遮斷效放得那麼大那我們怕說有的情形確實會過於嚴苛因此我們在這裡就做了一個比較遷移做了一個限縮就是以"},{"start":22958.952,"end":22980.314,"text":"說這個訴訟標的是經過終局判決中經過裁判的經過法院裁判的部分我們才讓他有計判有確定力但是我們又怕說當我們這樣子把它限縮了之後又會讓一些當事人他如果是故意或者是重大過失他就是"},{"start":22981.235,"end":23000.105,"text":"不走不提出來不在事實審言辭辯論終結前提出來提出主張或者是做變更處分那這個就開了一個漏洞給不管是給納稅一人或者是給被告機關因此我們才又設了第二項的規定就是說"},{"start":23000.825,"end":23020.094,"text":"如果稅捐機關你因為故意或者是重大過失你不在事實審言辭辯論終結前就足以增加稅額的事由提出來的話那你就不可以在判決確定後再根據這些事由另外再做成一個補稅的處分那相同的"},{"start":23022.335,"end":23045.054,"text":"納稅義務人如果也因為故意或重大過失那你不提出這些主張的話那你也就不可以在就在於判決確定後基於這些事有再來請求退稅或者是提起再審以上報告好謝謝陳庭長那麼稅務機關代表那麼有沒有對這個部分你有提到稅務機關那麼適合認同這樣的條文設計請表示意見"},{"start":23050.646,"end":23065.674,"text":"原則上我們是認同但是就是怕說有些案件它當然它這邊也有前提啦就是說因為故意或重大過失那如果不是基於這樣的理由其實我們不會適用到這一項那基本上我們沒什麼意見"},{"start":23071.839,"end":23088.175,"text":"31條這裡我的看法是若是稅捐機關自己本身因為故意咒納過失沒有在訴訟的過程當中提出主張所以至於他判決確定後不可以再"},{"start":23089.416,"end":23118.178,"text":"做成補正稅有處分或提起債券之訴我認為這是規則於稅軍機關的問題那我這裡是支持可是對於納稅義務人而言我認為說這樣子的一個規定會不會也剝奪了納稅義務人的這個訴訟救濟權利因為畢竟債審的規定其實在各個不同訴訟法裡面都有那現在行政訴訟法裡面的相關的債審的規定有類似像你們這樣有排除"},{"start":23119.019,"end":23146.946,"text":"就是當事人因為故意或中納過失而該提出主張沒有提出主張判決確定之後不准他們再提起再審之訴的類似規定嗎好 陳廷長請回答報告委員目前行政訴訟法273條第一項第13款也就是再審的事由它是有一款是說發現未經斟酌的證物或者是可以使用證物的話那你是可以據以為再審的事由"},{"start":23147.466,"end":23175.018,"text":"提起再審但是我們同時呢在111年修法之後也增設了一個它的第四項的規定就是限縮了這十三二七三條第一項第十三款的室友必須限於以非可規則於己的室友不能於言辭辯論終結前提出者違憲所以也把十三款做了一個限縮的限縮的規定"},{"start":23180.148,"end":23186.213,"text":"類似的規定了在行政訴訟法您剛剛講說是證物行政訴訟法是273條第一項第13款跟第4項同條是就證物提出的證據就是發現未經斟酌的證物那這裡的話我們31條是"},{"start":23202.728,"end":23220.953,"text":"就是他沒有提出而且我們是把他限於說除非你真的是故意或重大過失了真的是有有有這麼嚴重的情形我們才會限制你不可以再再來提再審或者是做成這個請求退稅好了解了專委員"},{"start":23227.56,"end":23254.418,"text":"主席31條第二項這一點我倒有不同的意見這一點我就跟翁小玲維的意見比較接近因為那個納稅義務人的部分你去把它看我們現在設計是說你故意跟重大過失你沒有在那個整個事實審言辭辯論終結前你就足以使稅額減少的事實提出主張那你去把它看本來你在再審的規定你本來就是說我只要是"},{"start":23255.379,"end":23275.389,"text":"只要是基於發現真實嘛我本來就該有的證據不管是民事訴訟、刑事訴訟或者刑事訴訟裡面你落位審酌了拿出來審判庭裡面這個本來就是覺得是回復到整個真實嘛可是後來修法以後我們就把這個門又堵起來了你一直把它堵的話我們現在審的是"},{"start":23277.473,"end":23303.47,"text":"國家一個高權行為在剋稅喔本來國家在剋稅的時候你本來就要真實的去剋稅最多也只能到這裡而已欸啊我好不容易我找到出一個說喔我那邊對我是有利的啊我們現在又跟他講說你可能是故意你可能是重大過失我們這個第七條裡面我不曉得剛剛第七條那條通過沒有還沒有我們現在也要採律師強制喔"},{"start":23304.878,"end":23306.44,"text":"那如果是第七條兩條等於是連動喔"},{"start":23308.809,"end":23336.891,"text":"否則的話你一般當事人我們在講的是立法委員在講還有法律人在講或者專業人在講一般民眾哇 等一下什麼的哇 把這個不利益苛責於老百姓我是覺得行政部門我覺得合理啦就行政部門就是說你就怠惰啦你硬要做 你做不好沒關係沒關係 放過去那剛好老百姓賺到了可以可是這個第二款這個有點像追殺追殺過渡"},{"start":23338.493,"end":23364.882,"text":"會不會有這樣的一個想法真的喔我就碰過好幾件啦我跟你講啦 那個年紀很大的被你們磕磕到最後想自殺啦不不不 不懂 基於真的不懂老一輩的人就真的不懂唉呦 我跟你講不懂 她想說她的兒子很老 兒子跟媳婦會跟她相處結果完結也都沒辦法用"},{"start":23366.004,"end":23380.707,"text":"那是故意你不要以為這個很現實啦日常生活就這麼一回事啦你不要以為說這個好像說一個很合理 理性的國民大家都該具備什麼專業常識沒有這回事啦有的覺得說我老人家生小孩自己就很厲害 高級博士啊又都專業 大家知道都晚嫁全部都不相似到最後不利益承擔全部都是那個老的會這樣子喔所以你那個第二款的設定我是覺得涉及到老百姓的這個是不是可以在"},{"start":23396.648,"end":23420.788,"text":"第一款我覺得很合理啦第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三項第三"},{"start":23424.761,"end":23444.394,"text":"你要反對他,沒有辦法,這部分我就反對你們了因為我是覺得這一款不用科與納稅義務人這麼高因為我看你們那個從在審室友的設計我們一直跟他說說說說說不然本來你在審本來就是要發聲真實啊"},{"start":23446.954,"end":23471.308,"text":"對不對 尤其是國家在課稅行為你本來就是有多少 你本來只能課多少而已啊哪有什麼我忘記了 或者什麼書本來我就不應該課那麼多的 只因為我不懂到最後我還要享受這個不利益所以這個第三款 廳長再考慮一下你也會啦 我跟你講好 那個請教一下不是不是 我的意思是站在人民的立場裡面"},{"start":23472.749,"end":23498.198,"text":"你是第七條剛好你現在要採律師強制喔不然這些條你拿出去老百姓是沒有一條看得懂的喔我跟妳講真的沒有人看得懂啊那個請問一下第三十一條第三項納稅一路人他的故意或過失的舉證責任是這個涉及到對於誰比較利益因為納稅一路人很難去想像他故意對他有利益他不提出"},{"start":23500.509,"end":23506.153,"text":"你舉個例子給我聽聽看,說我這撿出來之後可以減稅,我就故意丟在那裡不可以撿出來,有這個我很難想像看啦,我這第三個我還是覺得,甘秉你有跟我有道理嗎有啦,有那個"},{"start":23523.166,"end":23535.473,"text":"我們倒不必去審酌說你在整個刑事訴訟或者行政訴訟或者說民事訴訟裡面在審我也知道在研討的時候都是為了訴訟經濟啊甘麽說訴訟程序再開因為你要通過都已經很困難了"},{"start":23544.085,"end":23561.49,"text":"你一直給人家限縮限縮限縮這幾年的限縮那個我沒意見但是因為涉及到對老百姓的課稅本來有多少你本來就是只能課多少不能因為哪一個證據我沒有拿出來老百姓更不利益我認為這不通考慮一下 拜託拜託"},{"start":23562.697,"end":23588.039,"text":"來 翁委員 是啦 我也認為說這個雖審法的精神是希望能夠讓訴訟程序更為快速 更為經濟可是也不能因為強調訴訟程序的經濟而犧牲了納稅義務人員告的權利 當事人的權益尤其是涉及到再審之訴"},{"start":23590.615,"end":23614.209,"text":"這本來就是人家的一個權利,就像剛剛莊委員講的,發現他如果說真的發現了,他本來應該是要掃腳的,但是又不能提出主張。所以我是認為這一個第三項的規定,有應該要在審慎思考的必要性。來,那個,好吧,提案基本法代表同意的作為回應。來,副秘書長,請。"},{"start":23616.172,"end":23627.809,"text":"沒有 我剛只是在請教就是我雖然不是行政法的專業但是就是說我的理解第二項跟第三項其實都是基於第一項那個判決確定力來的就是說當一個判決"},{"start":23631.975,"end":23651.882,"text":"我們已經攻防了這麼久他已經產生了一個確定力之後他不只是對於就是說那個訴那個訴訟標的呀他對於就是說你這些攻防的這些那個重要事實本來就是法院都已經幫你審過了那我想這樣子的一個一個前面這個就是說不管是第二項或第三項說在"},{"start":23653.743,"end":23681.01,"text":"言辭辯論終結前就什麼什麼的那個事由就是之後都不可以主張我想這個本來就是判決確定力他的那個範疇裡面是不是那我想在這地方只是在做吳局長也不是因為第一款你講的是中間判決啊他還不是針對訴訟標的啊沒有訴訟標的確定的中間判決所以講的是終極判決終極判決"},{"start":23690.322,"end":23719.341,"text":"是我們再讓專業的來沒有沒有報告委員陳庭長請說其實這個我剛才講了其實這一條是討論計判力計判力的範圍那其實因為我們這一部法案設計的就誠如我剛才跟各位報告的我們前面的程序是很開放你可以隨時追加補充各種的你主張的事由你都可以提出來甚至在上述審你都還可以再提出來所以"},{"start":23719.901,"end":23739.787,"text":"我們就怕說大家提出來那麼多東西之後當判決確定之後一旦發生記判例全部遮斷我們怕這個對當事人來講太苛了所以我們才又把它開放一點然後就是說那不要全部遮斷啦至於法院判決"},{"start":23741.227,"end":23767.956,"text":"是以法院經裁判的我們才讓他產生遮斷的效力所以其實我們我覺得這個是一個很友善是很為當事人著想的啊理解方向我整個雖然我稅額減少的但是我的延遲辯論重點沒有提出來"},{"start":23771.087,"end":23798.387,"text":"我就不能以後就不能再提出委員其實這個第二項第三項其實是很極端很極端的例子真的是你會被認為真的是故意你故意嘛或重大過失真的很明顯你就是明明知道有這個你不提出來這種極端的例子其實才會落入第二項跟第三項的適用委員今天是都不問的"},{"start":23814.953,"end":23821.357,"text":"還是這一條再讓大家思考一下下我們先暫保留那我們先從32條32條應該是相對簡單是不是說明一下"},{"start":23826.966,"end":23854.586,"text":"是的 32條是一個過渡性的規定我們就是考慮到說如果這一部法案施行之後它跟目前已經在細數而沒有終結的這些的稅務行政事件它到底是該用本法呢還是用行政訴訟法呢所以我們就在這邊為了保障當事人的信賴跟訴訟程序的安定我們在這裡做了一個規範那第一項是一個原則性的揭示 就是說"},{"start":23855.166,"end":23873.893,"text":"原則上除別有規定外會適用本法但那二三四五項就是第一項所謂的除別有規定所以其實像如果已經是施行前已經起訴的案件像我們的第七條第九條這一些關於強制律師代理關於"},{"start":23876.674,"end":23886.743,"text":"遇時提出攻擊防禦方法這一些的規定就都不會適用所以其實我們是採比較保守的方式做了一些的限制以上報告謝謝好這個是屬於過渡行的規定好這五項如果文字內容"},{"start":23902.182,"end":23930.945,"text":"委員會沒有其他意見我們是不是就按照司法院提案文字通過好 謝謝那麼最後第33條就很簡單本法實行日期由司法院定資那前面我們有一個附帶決議是要在實行日期前應該做的哪些事情待會我們附帶決會來處理那請問委員我想請問那個司法院現在有沒有計畫大概會多久之後會實行"},{"start":23932.059,"end":23957.024,"text":"通過後假設通過後時間真的會實行報告委員我們是在想說因為這一部法是一個全新的法那陳儒剛才討論的過程中有很多是像什麼叫做同一課稅事件或者是基礎處分後續處分都需要讓適用這一部法律的尤其像稅捐機關的人員跟我們行政法院的法官們"},{"start":23957.904,"end":23979.544,"text":"充分的了解、認識所以我們中間還會辦很多的一些的宣導、講習我們務必確保大家都很了解能夠掌握這部法的精神之後我們大概才會讓他上路所以其實當然目前預估我想可能會"},{"start":23980.645,"end":24002.192,"text":"也本半個半年到一年之間吧應該不會很很倉促的就讓這一部法案立刻實行好來我們委員會那如果沒有你我們會倒車回去再看前面那是不是如果本條沒有問題我們就按照司法院提案通過"},{"start":24003.271,"end":24029.97,"text":"好那跟我們說明一下我們前面有幾個條文是因為我們認為需要在立法理由強化或者是說要附帶決議去拘束要求那所以我們會分別的到車到前面請大家看桌上先從第三條那第三條的立法說明已經把條文的部分都分別如列上了大家手上有沒有看到這一張就稅務"},{"start":24032.199,"end":24039.204,"text":"所以審法第三條的立法說明修正好大家看一下右本法第17條19條第26條及第29條分別優先於納保法第11條第3項21條第1項14條第2項第3項及第21條"},{"start":24054.419,"end":24076.414,"text":"為什麼你們21條第一項跟14條的第二項的調次是有什麼邏輯上的關係嗎一般都是按照調次順序那你們現在有一個21條的第一項那又差了一個14條的第二項第三項又差到21條的第三項調次上有沒有邏輯的關係一定要這樣擺還是調次上要從11 14 21的調次來表達"},{"start":24084.315,"end":24111.812,"text":"再看一下下,你們手上有嗎?自己看一下本法本法就是睡神法第十七條、十九條、二十六條及二十九條這個四個條文是按照條次來表達要分別優先於你是對應前面的是不是?對應前面的十七條,對應前面的十九條對應二十六,對應二十九,是這個意思嗎?還是你們是從第十一條因為你們睡"},{"start":24112.979,"end":24135.605,"text":"納保法的11條第三項就跑到21條的第一項又跑回24條的第二項第三項再跑回21條的第三項調適上的順序有沒有關聯有沒有對應前面的關聯有對應嘛有對應的關係所以你看法律人都為了求精簡我們都要猜測一下應該是這個對應關係就是有的是對應17條有的對應19條有的對應26條有的對應29條是這個意思好 那請各位委員看一下"},{"start":24142.046,"end":24167.999,"text":"這樣的內容補充是否足夠我們現在在處理的是第三條的立法說明是翁委員在條文通過後希望立法說明能夠補充得更完備請問翁委員這樣可以嗎這樣的寫法是沒有問題啦只是說有沒有沒有 因為我也沒有逐項去檢視有沒有是沒有寫到的應該 因為這司法院提供的應該都有寫到了"},{"start":24169.455,"end":24195.253,"text":"對啦 其實就是因為哪些要優先適用於納稅者權利保護法就蠻多專家學者都還是有很多的疑慮所以這個當然在之前的大體說明討論的時候其實大家都討論過這關鍵還有後面的一些條文好 第三條因為我們已經通過了那麼我們就把這個修正內容立法說明的內容修正補充進去那接下來是要處理第七條"},{"start":24197.174,"end":24206.94,"text":"第十條的立法說明大家有拿到嗎我們對應到我們法案的第十四頁因為有個第七點有談到基礎處分後續處分"},{"start":24223.223,"end":24235.752,"text":"那麼這當中呢請大家看到這一張的立法說明的第三頁就是第七到第八中間尤其是第七點第七點底下畫"},{"start":24237.079,"end":24256.795,"text":"底線的部分從文化局登錄某建物為歷史建築那裡開始到最後的並與序名據點這個是對應原來我們法案的這個報紙顏色本的這一本的第14頁把它補充在我們的立法說明當中那麼提案機關代表這個部分"},{"start":24264.079,"end":24286.797,"text":"有沒有要再做補充,因為這跟你們原來第七點的立法說明有些微的差別那因為還有一個是附帶決的部分附帶決是二十條嗎,還是二十八條二十三條二十三條"},{"start":24292.95,"end":24309.829,"text":"來 請安委員剛剛的第十條的立法理由的修正我有一個小小建議就是增加一個字就是文化局我先念一下文化局登陸某建物的歷史建築然後包括文化資質"},{"start":24311.134,"end":24337.006,"text":"保存法第18條稅捐基金稅捐稅捐基金機關據辦理免徵房屋稅及地價稅到誇號文化資產保存法第99條然後這邊是不是要多加個固登錄建築物為歷史建築之處分為基礎處分而免徵房屋稅及地價稅的課稅處分為後續處分前者對後者有拘束力這會不會比較清楚一點"},{"start":24337.858,"end":24366.437,"text":"好那翁委員可不可以把你的文字修正直接寫在帳篷上請他看那另外的第10條剛剛在討論的時候的戰保流銀牌包括滯納金因為稅捐基金機關他們認為那個滯納金啊那個滯納金跟後面敗訴之後他那個前面已經確定的滯納金不會因為你敗訴之後通通回到變成用本稅的利息去計算這個部分有處理了嗎"},{"start":24367.864,"end":24371.476,"text":"那個次長你們你們討論之後是不是有同意了"},{"start":24375.936,"end":24403.178,"text":"主席可不可以給我們時間我們回去把文字整理一下好那這樣好不好我們第10條我們還有第10條還是先保留好不好先暫保留第10條因為翁委員這邊也有然後財政部這邊也有所以我們第10條先暫保留繼續暫保留那麼再來是附帶決議的部分我們剛剛第20條21條有暫保留那麼20條21條暫保留我們是希望在施行前"},{"start":24405.946,"end":24427.629,"text":"其實是二十條暫保留啦對不是二十一條他寫附帶決議就本法第二十條二十一條關於統一課稅事件以及第十條第六項第二十三條關於基礎處分及後續處分與立法通過後頓耗施行前逗點請司法院與財政部研商適用範圍及案件類型"},{"start":24428.43,"end":24449.065,"text":"好那這樣的附帶決議呢就可以幫我們在處理第20條的時候大家的一些意見呢就不會說有稅務機關啊他們認定上不能夠理解的或確認的部分那請問20條經過這樣的一個附帶決議是否我們暫保留的第20條大家覺得經過這樣的附帶決議可以第20條我們在20條的時候呢是因為"},{"start":24458.476,"end":24472.769,"text":"提到所謂的後續處分這些相關的認定問題稅務機關是認為需要跟司法院這邊做更明確的釐清所以希望在法律施行前能夠做研商23條是啥23條也一樣"},{"start":24489.312,"end":24513.368,"text":"好 請問那個委員會 因為我們前面的20條跟23條的暫保留都是因為我們覺得需要配套兩個司法機關跟稅務行政機關能夠有充分的確認那希望在施行前他們有繼續的延商好來 那個李次長請"},{"start":24515.391,"end":24520.878,"text":"這邊我們是檢視了一下好像還有個23條之外還有個第29條29條的第二項也有提到獲基礎處分確認之數額者"},{"start":24529.931,"end":24550.788,"text":"29條也補充進去我們在23條後面再補充的第29條第二項好不好補進去是然後另外就是我們因為這邊只有說請司法院或與財政部延伤適用範圍及案件類型那我們是說那這樣子延伤的結果並將其結果怎樣是不是可以由司法院來公告之"},{"start":24552.049,"end":24567.496,"text":"就讓我們所有的民眾大家都知道都可以了解說這個類型或者說用行政命令來對外發布還是怎麼樣好 來這個部分可能請司法院看看文字怎麼處理 對"},{"start":24571.571,"end":24599.065,"text":"來這個就是附帶決議就本法第20條第21條關於同一課稅事件以及第10條第6項第23條以及第29條第2項關於基礎處分及後續處分於立法通過後頓號施行前逗號請司法院與財政部延商適用範圍及案件列行逗點並將其延商結果對外公佈對外發佈"},{"start":24601.338,"end":24612.264,"text":"這樣的文字內容可行嗎你們是怎麼表達那個讓大家知道廣為周知總不能跟我們貼文一樣 忘周知結果是今天大家一直在關心的市場院的一些延商結果我們希望能夠知道這個延商結果有可能把它定在施行細則裡面嗎"},{"start":24631.226,"end":24648.015,"text":"就同一課稅事件文字上可以再斟酌一下嗎來那個副名長請"},{"start":24649.212,"end":24649.352,"text":"對外宣導"},{"start":24668.961,"end":24695.772,"text":"因為那個會議開到現在我們從一點到現在可以讓大家休息一下下你們擬一下文字那個委員會是否先需要短暫的生理上的休息那讓老金去想一下我是建議是不是乾脆一氣呵成啦就剩下 因為剩下也沒有多少因為他們需要時間寫啊寫什麼剛剛那個部分 文字的部分啊剛剛在念的部分對外公開嘛 對外公告啊"},{"start":24697.297,"end":24712.869,"text":"對外說明好 那我們是不是重新擬一個文字上來好不好好 才不會讓議事人員這邊錯誤好 那如果這個附帶決議文字出來之後呢我們就會產生我們把原來保留的第20條第23條還有第28條因為有沒有 包括28條"},{"start":24730.416,"end":24753.941,"text":"28條的立法說明還沒補充喔28條的立法說明好 28條的立法說明來了好 那這樣子啊我們現在同時先處理28條的立法說明那請剛剛的那個附帶決的文字再做一下修整那我們把28條的立法說明請大家委員會看一下31條有 他還沒有講啊他還沒有講"},{"start":24755.314,"end":24771.505,"text":"來我們一個一個來不要急不要急還會有時間的那麼我們先從28條來看28條的附帶決議不是立法說明說錯了立法說明的說明部分請看文字內容說明欄的第"},{"start":24773.617,"end":24800.096,"text":"第六行一級為免罰或拙減裁罰金額之決定後面行政法院不得為較原處分為更不利於原告之判決自屬當然自屬當然就是說再講一次給你聽就這一張有沒有看到來大家桌面看一下第28條的說明補充"},{"start":24804.701,"end":24815.937,"text":"28條在我們的本子上第31頁看到了 這邊看到了 抱歉然後我看他這邊怎麼寫"},{"start":24860.557,"end":24888.154,"text":"這邊應該是要用因為它原來的條文都是用得自為免罰或裁罰之決定那麼所以呢在立法理由這邊是要寫成不得為較原處分為更不利於原告之判決還是要用決定前面是決定你看它上面畫底線的前面是寫決定之決定法院的才是判決"},{"start":24891.642,"end":24902.688,"text":"對 可是因為你看條文 它第28條的條文它說行政法院得自為免罰或裁罰之決定而撤銷或變額繁華準備全部或一部所以這個決定當然可能也是指判決嗎"},{"start":24904.246,"end":24922.424,"text":"但是報告委員我們因為我們做自違免罰或裁罰決定之後都是以判決的方式來處理啊判決主文就會預知說撤銷原處分超過多少萬元金額的部分對好那就是說"},{"start":24923.871,"end":24940.438,"text":"OK好啦那就是文字上面本來想說要不要統一那你叫他用原告吧用判決好那麼我們這是第28條我們就將立法說明修正後按司法院提案文字通過好謝謝那剛剛的那個31的暫保留還沒處理我們先處理前面的那個"},{"start":24949.454,"end":24958.917,"text":"那個附帶決議的部分因為31條莊委員跟翁委員都很關心我們再想一下那我們現在處理的是剛剛提到的第2020條還有第23條23條"},{"start":24974.031,"end":24990.087,"text":"文字還沒過來嗎 等一下讓他發一下因為後來把後面的加上說案件類型逗號並將其延伤結果對外說明好像是這樣子嘛 你們文字上再斟酌一下"},{"start":25074.411,"end":25095.34,"text":"好第20條和23條的文字附帶決的文字有沒有送出去了好印了好來我們再等一分鐘那跟委員說明那目前的我們如果處理完20條23條的附帶決議那麼第10條是關於自納金的部分那2728剛剛也"},{"start":25104.005,"end":25107.366,"text":"2728有處理了嗎?27還沒有然後28處理了那31還沒有,31是關於那個不利處分的那個對,27跟31"},{"start":25141.926,"end":25151.129,"text":"那跟委員說明一下我們大委的時間目前有20、23在看附帶決議中那麼27條是屬於那個"},{"start":25169.474,"end":25195.864,"text":"行政訴訟法跟這個稅審法是要由行政訴訟法來統一處理還是稅審法先行那麼第31條就是對於當那個納稅醫護人本身故意或過之的問題那另外呢前面還有4567這四個條文那4567早上只是做一些意見交換我們或許可以再過頭來處理"},{"start":25198.646,"end":25206.91,"text":"好 那麼大家是不是已經拿到了修正本附帶決議好 我唸一遍 請大家看一下舊本法第20條 第21條關於統一課稅事件以及第10條第6項 第23條"},{"start":25213.717,"end":25237.544,"text":"第29條第二項關於基礎處分及後續處分於立法通過後施行前請司法院與財政部研商適用範圍及案件類型並分別對外說明分別 各說各的說同一件事情好 那麼請問大家對於這樣的負債決定內容是否可以接受"},{"start":25239.104,"end":25267.137,"text":"好 可以接受 那我們這樣的話附帶決議通過 那我們另外20條就按照司法院提案通過以及第23條也按照司法院提案內容通過那接下來我們來處理的是 先處理4567好不好因為第10條 內容還是要請那個稅務機關看一下"},{"start":25269.175,"end":25294.311,"text":"可是還有那個滯納金的呢滯納金的部分還沒有沒有啊在等啊所以我這個先不急啊好那麼第10條的部分因為稅務機關他們也在研究關於那個滯納金的部分怎麼樣表達進去才不會有所誤解那是不是請我們回過頭來看暫保留的第4條第4條條文"},{"start":25300.302,"end":25323.988,"text":"第四條是這個當事人能力的部分那是否大家經過這樣的全部逐條看過之後對於當事人的能力部分是否同意主要提案的黃委員他對這個部分也還蠻有意見的我個人認為說也沒有講得很清楚就保留吧"},{"start":25324.889,"end":25348.47,"text":"好還是先暫保留我們那麼因為我們本案還會再審那麼第5條的部分那個提案機關有沒有要再補充說明對這個地方也涉及到第三人效率處分那也是不是很清楚好而且這個相關的就適當的例子還沒有找出來好不好好第6條第6條"},{"start":25351.994,"end":25380.788,"text":"第六條涉及到基礎處分的部分嗎就跟後面的一起 這也要講清楚第六條是那個命期參加對 輔助參加是命期參加不一樣喔 因為第六條比較跟前面那兩條不一樣第六條命期參加的部分是否我們這樣經過全部的條文看過之後第六條應該是相對比較沒有爭議啦"},{"start":25382.369,"end":25409.31,"text":"那是不是委員同意我們第六條按照委員提案通過好 謝謝那麼第七條第七條因為有那個條文對照的部分那好像有新的東西在送進來嘛有沒有 有有 有第七條有第七條有一個修正動議跟立法說明的修正請大家看到就是第七條 有沒有看到第七條這張白紙"},{"start":25410.629,"end":25415.04,"text":"修正條文的動議內容在第七條的第四行"},{"start":25416.294,"end":25441.534,"text":"因委任律師或法定得為訴訟代理之人這個就是把後面可能的這些會計師這些都放進去了那麼立法說明的部分在第二點他說本條第一項所稱法定得為訴訟代理之人細指一行政訴訟法第49條之一第四項得委任非律師為訴訟代理人之情形"},{"start":25442.495,"end":25471.821,"text":"好 那就是這樣 就把早上大家關心的除了律師之外 訴訟代理人之人有沒有包含律師之外的好 那因為這個修正動議我要簽個名啦 大家看有沒有意見我是認為說這條的還沒發好就還是有爭議啦 就還是善保留啦等等 等等 那個你們有沒有拿到有拿到 有拿到呢對 有沒有發 這張我再講一次喔現在說沒有發出去 我說怎麼有拿到 有拿到了嘛"},{"start":25473.602,"end":25497.967,"text":"這個或法定得為訴訟代理之人都有看到喔來 莊委員您看到了嗎第七條啦第七條的修正動議跟立法說明就還是稅務行政事件是不是一定要強制委任律師啦那個 問我說明一下上午在討論的時候是講有其他不是律師的像會計師可不可以代理因為這裡談的不是強制代理的問題"},{"start":25498.874,"end":25521.906,"text":"因為上午談強制代理的時候討論到說那因為眾委強制代理但是是否只有委律師可以強制代理那麼要回到我們行政訴訟法的規定去不是在討論強制代理與否大概跟委員會說明一下因為上午的情況是這樣子上午是有委員表示說"},{"start":25523.746,"end":25540.737,"text":"強制代理但是非律師可否代理的問題不是在討論得否強制代理其實這個不強制委任律師由當事人自己主張會對行政法院會造成什麼影響嗎"},{"start":25542.492,"end":25544.073,"text":"好 那這是新的課題不是 對 因為其實這條條文的確很多人很關心而且認為這個可能會不利於經濟弱勢"},{"start":25555.714,"end":25575.035,"text":"你是講說科學科這麼高那可能也不會是經濟弱勢因為早上我們並沒有對於強制代理的部分做討論而是說大家在同意強制代理的情況了解強制代理的範疇之外因為有委員提到說那邊最多寫委任律師但事實上有非律師可以接受"},{"start":25575.976,"end":25594.561,"text":"可以當為代理的那麼就回歸到行政訴訟法那因此特別把行政訴訟法的相關的文字也放進來就更為明確早上只是因為這個部分還沒有寫出來所以暫保留的並不是在討論可否強制代理的問題還是要跟委員說明一下不要不要說明一下加上這文字內容來請副秘書長"},{"start":25600.63,"end":25607.233,"text":"融火再說明一下,所謂的150萬是指稅額150萬,並不是課稅的事實坦白講,我想我應該不算是經濟上的弱勢,可是我一輩子還沒有繳過哪一條稅是超過150萬也很難想像我未來以後會有繳超過150萬一個稅的"},{"start":25623.3,"end":25640.915,"text":"這個事實上那個標的事實上是真的已經是非常大了就是那個稅收那至於說這裡頭其實有做了很多很多平衡就是說很多就是說什麼情況底下還是有很多那個例外就是說他並不一定要那個強制代理"},{"start":25644.601,"end":25656.799,"text":"這裡頭也都規定適用行政訴訟法關於強制代理的規定我想我們在說明裡面也做了很多詳細的說明說哪一些情況事實上是不用的去做一個平衡"},{"start":25658.308,"end":25680.186,"text":"以上補充說明我記得好像像有的時候那個遺產稅過去曾經看到有些新聞然後也有些民眾可能不知道遺產稅各方面的一些規定可能在莫名其妙也被要求要繳交很高的遺產稅或是贈禮稅的時候好像是不是也曾經有發生過"},{"start":25681.207,"end":25704.676,"text":"這都不見得是老百姓他真的是很有錢要交到這麼高的錢我現在只是想說是如果說回到這個條文的本身來講當然你們現在也做了修正但整體來講就是這個條文其實我覺得還是應該要保留然後再大家再討論我記得黃委員然後之前羅志強委員他們也都有在提到這個條文"},{"start":25708.053,"end":25726.08,"text":"因為早上黃委員談的是律師以外的人這個還是要跟你說明一下他早上並不是提強制代理的問題是談律師以外的人現在我們要談就是這個條文要不要保留嘛我知道我是說就這個問題我們經過這樣的修正之後可不可以同意我建議就保留吧就保留啦其他委員的意見"},{"start":25738.93,"end":25753.082,"text":"我們現在有哪些條文還沒處理的暫保留就是第4條第5條第6條第7條暫保留還有31好像第10條當時也是講暫保留第10條是因為我剛剛講暫保留是因為那個稅務機關他們還在"},{"start":25759.99,"end":25760.03,"text":"第31條是31條嗎27條"},{"start":25770.651,"end":25797.492,"text":"27條就是這個就是因為是不是要特別法先行因為行政訴訟法目前並沒有可以引用但是因為稅務機關是表示說因為所謂的複查也只有稅務機關會用到那如果你在特別法當中不把這個複查兩個字放進去要等到行政訴訟法到時候一併來修可能到時候還要回過頭來再把這條文把那個複查放進去恐怕是不是在"},{"start":25798.888,"end":25802.226,"text":"我們的程序經濟上可以考量"},{"start":25802.834,"end":25830.632,"text":"其實也還好啦 沒有插納一些文字因為我個人的看法還是認為整個行政訴訟法一體修會比較好 否則的話變成一個法院然後這類不同案件整個都割裂的處理因為我們今天暫保留的原因是因為委員還有一些意見想要再思考得更清楚一點然後再來31條的部分"},{"start":25831.96,"end":25849.305,"text":"三十一條是關於納稅醫護人因故意或重大過失這個部分兩位委員莊委員跟翁委員那麼剛剛的說明是否足夠"},{"start":25851.107,"end":25873.597,"text":"第三十一條 納稅醫護人因故意或重大過失再審的問題七十三十一條我還是有點意見 我之所以意見 我剛才一直在那邊思考我們這一部算是行政訴訟法的特別法 就是稅務行政的一個審理"},{"start":25875.168,"end":25895.633,"text":"那你去把它看喔,如果我們31條這樣規定的話,如果我們這邊都未規定是不是回歸到行政訴訟法,那這就麻煩了。我本來的想法是說,這一第三款裡面如果沒有的話,那相對於第二款的話,其實不會回到行政訴訟法,這是有意的疏漏。"},{"start":25896.733,"end":25923.43,"text":"你去看我們民事訴訟法裡面它你只要不管是民事訴訟法或行政訴訟法或者刑事訴訟法不管是你重要證據落位審酌或者說你發現新事實 新證據只要有利於我這個裁判當事人有利益的根本就沒有規定什麼故意或重大過失沒有在講這一些啊只是因為你到了行政訴訟以後行政部門的議員你比較大行政法案你就偷懶啊"},{"start":25924.531,"end":25938.727,"text":"你就一定要什麼故意啊或者重大過失啊還是設定一大堆條款你才可以來來這個弄一些再審啊行政訴訟本來當初行政法院被外界把你批評出來你們就是駁回法院啊有啦什麼沒有你們行政法院最爛的"},{"start":25945.277,"end":25963.789,"text":"以前被外界的詬病啦不是說那些法官都爛了不能這樣講啦我的意思就是說當然有改善啊當然有改善啊但是我的意思是說你去比較民事訴訟的制度你去比較刑事訴訟的這個制度那為什麼你行政訴訟跟人家就要不一樣行政訴訟那是 刑事訴訟要抓到官的"},{"start":25968.7,"end":25994.748,"text":"人家也不該整天說什麼故意要做大過失也不想你說你行政訴訟一直講說非規則於當事人對不對那我們為什麼要有這個第三款這樣的設計我的意思就是說你去比較刑事訴訟法的規定跟民事訴訟法的規定再來看看你涉及到官方的就沒有必要讓老百姓這麼委屈嘛"},{"start":25996.701,"end":26014.533,"text":"不然你逼到420你逼到496你逼到什麼我個人的看法啦除非我們把它解釋成這31條的第三項裡面如果沒有規定是一個刻意的跟第二項來做比較是一個疏漏不會回歸到行政訴訟但是你如果像廠長你說這裡沒有規定要回復到行政訴訟我說話也聽不懂"},{"start":26019.79,"end":26039.963,"text":"對不對 我是覺得我這樣講有道理啦 因為這是國家在瞌睡我實質上不應該繳這麼多 不能因為我有疏忽然後就是說 你死了好 為什麼你有故意中大過失不然在那裡哭這是我這個很直接的罰感"},{"start":26043.328,"end":26065.005,"text":"再審啊 是啊 是啊你為什麼要把他這個再審的你把它剝奪掉呢有必要嗎 我們有必要這樣設計嗎就像你講的 案件根本就不多啦你連民事訴訟尤其刑事訴訟你要把那個再審程序再開哪那麼容易啊程序上就剝掉了耶那我們如果說針對這一種 針對這種國家你的高檢新聞在瞌睡的"},{"start":26073.238,"end":26085.716,"text":"給他有一個就是我都不應該錄這麼多這樣因為你給他課一個說我因為故意或重大過失我連這個再審程序都不能開我是覺得好像沒必要"},{"start":26088.274,"end":26115.716,"text":"那個跟委員報告因為那個主席這邊會再繼續排審那所以我們今天有兩個案子那我就徵求委員同意因為我們本來第11到第16以及第25條本來就說不會處理那今天的暫保留部分我們會再下次繼續處理但是由於因為第25條是稅審官那稅審官如果未來我們同意假設同意後面的審查同意會涉及到行政法院組織法當中的幾個條文"},{"start":26116.877,"end":26136.462,"text":"那我這幾天這樣去了解之後我希望能夠把第二案的部分就這幾個這兩個這個條文因為那個行政機關的人也在場讓大家來先做討論所以目前接下來主席這邊的處理會向第一案我們會在另排期繼續審議然後繼續第二案的部分"},{"start":26137.122,"end":26147.364,"text":"那麼先就那個那個關鍵條文的部分讓機關代表做說明因為跟委員說明一下因為這個那個條文的主要爭議不是在"},{"start":26148.311,"end":26175.459,"text":"我聽起來不是在我們委員會這邊因為委員會這邊在意的是稅審官要不要設但是一旦設了稅審官之後呢到底他的條文上的表達在行政法院組織法當中他到底要怎麼表述那麼權序部也好人事總署也好跟司法院也好有些意見那請容許我們最後的時間把握一下今天壓縮了我們委員會休息的時間那也希望待會不要拖太晚"},{"start":26176.199,"end":26182.485,"text":"所以請允許我們來做這樣的處理那我是不是先就第一案的部分做個宣告那我們進行第二案的部分好討論事項第一案未及處理部分做如下決議令定期繼續審查"},{"start":26192.062,"end":26215.151,"text":"那麼繼續討論第二案繼續審查司法院含情審議行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案本案前經113年12月30日本會期本會第23次全體委員會決議另訂其繼續審查由於該次會議在大體討論後已進行逐條並通過決議第10條及第15條均照司法院提案通過源於今日繼續就本案為及討論決議部分進行逐條審查"},{"start":26218.092,"end":26245.247,"text":"那麼現在就拜託我們第二案的部分是不是只就二十條之一的部分讓機關表達意見因為他們主要這一條是因為機關有一些不一樣的意見我們讓他表達那後續我們今天不處理好不好委員長同意嗎我們因為這一條是涉及到稅審官那稅審官在我們的稅審法當中既然沒有通過關鍵的二十五條這一個部分當然就不會做"},{"start":26246.848,"end":26272.824,"text":"決議但是呢由於二十條之一主要是基於機關之間的不同意見我們還是請委員會了解一下那我們到另定期再審議好不好因為機關代表都來了我們讓他們表示那大家有什麼意見請他們待會去再做怎麼樣協商那可能換場的時候待會人事總處跟權序部要表示那麼第二十條之一是不是請提案機關代表就這個提案這個二十條之一的條文做說明"},{"start":26273.664,"end":26300.077,"text":"不討論 不處理 他們說明我們不處理好 了解那個主席委員 大家好現在終於進到了第二個法案那我先說明就是有關於就是在這一個部分我們設了一個那個稅審官那有關於稅審官的那個來源呢他為了能夠廣納就是市財 市所的人才進來所以說他的那個禁用管道有三個"},{"start":26300.777,"end":26327.171,"text":"一個是在那個組織法二十條之一第一項的就是一般公務員的這個任用就是有官職等的那個任用那另外呢就是在那個第四項的時候呢他同時還規定了有聘用跟戒掉的那個管道這個是第一個前提說明的那第二個就是有關於就是這個聘用的那個部分司法院就是本院非常清楚"},{"start":26327.791,"end":26353.481,"text":"聘用人員呢他不可以適用就是這個官職務還有那個官職等那這個是在那個聘用人員聘用條例第七條第一項的這個規定這個本院是絕對會遵守齁那在這一次那個組織法呢我們也是遵循以上的那個規定做前提來做一個規定的齁那所以就是我們看回到就是"},{"start":26355.722,"end":26368.899,"text":"20條之一第一項這個所謂的這一個呃寫上這個子等他是只有在只有提醒一下委員會請看這張白色的不是看紙本的那個報紙色的這張他有做一個修正他請繼續對就是"},{"start":26371.121,"end":26391.087,"text":"第一項的這個所謂的這個官職等呢他是只有專門在規範任用的這個管道那至於說那個第四項這個聘用呢他當然他不會有這個所謂的官職等那我們為了就是說不要引起那個誤解所以我們這一次在那個今天在"},{"start":26391.767,"end":26414.901,"text":"理由中我們有做一個紅色的修正就是特別把這個意旨把它表明得更清楚免得引起誤解就是在最後面我們加上了至於本項規定聘用的稅務審查官本無第一項官職等規定的適用自無待明定以上"},{"start":26417.691,"end":26418.132,"text":"主席跟委員"},{"start":26445.731,"end":26465.098,"text":"主席各位委員我是全序部選人司代表檢視查林戴帆那部裡頭針對這個部分主要是比較擔憂就是行政法院組織法第20條之一的這個條文可能會跟聘用條例的第7條第一項有所焊隔但是剛剛副秘書長已經有在"},{"start":26468.92,"end":26484.25,"text":"剛剛跟各位表達說這個部分呢其實他們是會遵守聘用條例的規定不會違反該條例的相關規定那如果是有在法案裡頭予以成名的話那本部予以尊重 以上好 那就讓委員會知道一下目前行政機關已經"},{"start":26486.618,"end":26507.238,"text":"都認同用立法說明的方式表達那如果我們下次審議到行政法院組織法的部分我們就把行政院跟司法院的意見就以這樣的修正內容的立法說明的修正內容部分來呈現那請問那個人事總署有沒有表達意見那個是蔡專務委員"},{"start":26509.867,"end":26531.978,"text":"那請 人事總處這邊有關聘用人員的部分我們是尊重聘用法治主管機關的意見那有關任用跟借調的部分呢我們是尊重司法院以及大院審議結果 以上那關於付表的部分有沒有其他的機關有意見 付表的部分大家看到這個報紙社的這一本 46月47月付表講完就可以了"},{"start":26540.066,"end":26565.292,"text":"有沒有 副表可不可以問人事總書這邊是過去在交易給行政院審議的時候人事總書這邊是有提供一些就是因為這次在草案的部分副表有增置了這個司法事務官10人的部分那我們是有去查過說最高行政法院在108年到112年的新收案量其實是呈現一個浮動的狀況"},{"start":26566.272,"end":26585.108,"text":"那實際的案量可能也有減少那我們不確定說這個部分司法院在判斷說要增加到10個人這個地方他的這個原額計算基準是什麼那是不是要做這樣的調整可能還可以再做考量 以上好 提案接問代表我們那麼司法院廳長還是副廳長請"},{"start":26589.343,"end":26614.933,"text":"這上面所列的那個零到十齁它可能是從零也有可能是我們全部只會聘用一個那那個一直到十這只是為了以後就是有一個那個彈性啊就是說以後隨著那個案件的那個什麼情形有增加的那個必要的時候我們不要再一直那個修法那但是我們目前那個預估我們大概是大概就是會用那個幾個啊當然不會是用到十那個以上說明"},{"start":26616.493,"end":26643.248,"text":"好 那麼跟委員會報告那麼請問委員會對於剛剛的這個內容如果都已經知悉的話那我們接續下來未來如果審到行政法院組織法的部分那當然前提是稅審法的稅審官我們在審稅審法第25條同意之後我們行政法院組織法部分關於這個條文的部分及附表的部分我們就如司法院及行政院代表他們的意見內容去做處理"},{"start":26644.088,"end":26646.65,"text":"好 那請問那提案計劃還有沒有要補充沒有齁因為你們來了一整天了在等這個好 那這樣我就做個宣告了齁好 那麼有關討論事項第二案未及處理部分決議另定期繼續審查那麼本次會議進行到此結束現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"158645","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158645","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e527b4b60c576fb848f82bf49b3fbaf4a56a11e77586d9faf3f4276e10a0b5a9ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"12:28:12 - 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我知道 但我們中央新疆通過有土地變更 變更過我們就可以開始造商開始增加就業機會 地方經濟可以更加發展另外就是我們分林的寶宗產業園區我們環境國會一定當112年12月對設施計畫第二的改動這個環境影響經過的範圍"},{"start":152.883,"end":167.279,"text":"經濟部有承諾說會加速來管理後續這些程序這個部分想要請秘書長幫我們追蹤一下既然經濟部有這樣的說明我們就來追蹤我們真的很希望"},{"start":170.382,"end":171.342,"text":"如果有產業發展是最好的"},{"start":195.41,"end":208.113,"text":"我在國防會擔任主委的時候也推動地方創生事實上雲林有很多很多的年輕人他們也從事地方創生的一些活動而且表現都非常非常好是 我相信我們行政院也樂觀其成這個國分才怪少一點我們今天針對我們討論的議題就是這個法輪的事件的國分我們這個法輪通過平台 通過平台"},{"start":222.335,"end":224.997,"text":"現在有更新資料,據名通報的案件大概是126件126件,這樣算起來有很多"},{"start":246.799,"end":257.002,"text":"比我們預估要多啦,所以這個我們還是怎麼樣來盡快處理所以我們這個公務單位,這個過年的問題愛情來檢視,我們現在這個大平台,當初最大的問題就是要求具體,具體檢舉,所以當我們勞動"},{"start":269.326,"end":277.436,"text":"互發生問題後大量爆料,在先前公開說這個平台要求拒引檢舉,再來我們這案件的大量的減少有時候有的有些事,像我以前在電影座代表會主席"},{"start":285.186,"end":289.648,"text":"不要說只有公訴,甚至連管府的法令案都有,都有電線來到我們這邊所以過去的施工過程,都是當地方政府他們裡面的人出台公訴這樣而已,經過到我們這個行政調查所以我們要透明化,可以讓大家對我們這個公務"},{"start":309.338,"end":311.42,"text":"公務廳這個人在說的鐵飯碗這個職業,大家可以更加安心來報考,還是說用於來來承擔這些我們他們公務上的一些責任,最近我們看公務廳,真的課公務另外的人越來越少了"},{"start":328.226,"end":335.447,"text":"對啊,如果有這個過分,可能我們行政院也要想辦法去改變要怎麼說,能夠啟用年輕人的管理來倒立我們這個公家這個公務體系,像這樣好啦,這樣,我來給技術長先休息一下好,謝謝,謝謝我預想啦,阿杜啊,要幫你拜託一下,這間工會好,好,我知道,我知道再拜託你幫我們推廣一下,好,好,謝謝,謝謝"},{"start":358.882,"end":363.932,"text":"好,接下來請鍾嘉斌委員,鍾嘉斌委員,鍾嘉斌委員不在,好,我們請王煌"}]}},{"id":"158644","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158644","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e54e2a72e0c0bdd9d5c921d2cbf1168e406a11e77586d9faf3896b02f461641f995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:23:54 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來請我們勞動部部長"},{"start":286.161,"end":304.893,"text":"因为我们现在在公务机关里面不管是霸凌尤其最近霸凌事件那么大家并不相信公务机关内的处理那么所以已经有很多基层的公务部门的一些基层的团体他们有个呼声希望公务员能够适用职安法"},{"start":305.453,"end":325.165,"text":"也就是說如果他發生事件 他可以請 比如說他可以請縣市的勞動局來做處理 來做申訴 來做調查因為我們現在的公務體系 事實上是不被信任的所以在這個部分 請問一下部長 你對於他們的呼聲 你可以做研究嗎"},{"start":327.349,"end":349.742,"text":"跟網友說明 確實現在在職安法裡面主要是針對一般的勞工的部分公務員其實他有套自己的公務的法規那這部分主管的部分其實是關考試院我們會來問其他的部位 但是就勞動部的立場從勞動部的立場來說 我們當然願意跟考試院一起來討論"},{"start":351.383,"end":369.668,"text":"就是說包括確實比方說關於職場的不法侵害或者是未來的職場的霸凌的防治我們其實因為這個我們有包括像職安署那在這段時間其實也做了不少的這個專業上面的研擬就是說如果要再就我知道說好像"},{"start":371.989,"end":385.604,"text":"這個考試院這邊也想要做相關法規的修訂對 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會議尚未開始你直接回答黃國昭的問題就好黃國昭的問題就好 他問你對 你不是從早開始講嗎所以我才請教主席嘛他沒有同意你走嘛也沒有人叫你走嘛所以我下一個合邏輯的問題就是對現在的行政院來講在立法院來是自己想走就可以走沒有人要你走"},{"start":111.121,"end":138.891,"text":"主席也沒有准你走但是你自己決定要離開那我的問題就來了因為那時候的狀況會議的狀態不是那麼清楚所以呢不用請示主席嗎會議的狀態不是那麼清楚所以我愛走就可以走嗎可是主席不在等一下等一下先停一下主席他現在怪到你人不在喔他有打電話跟你聯絡嗎沒有而且我跟黃總召也說明一下下午"},{"start":140.168,"end":159.778,"text":"秘書長我通知他他也回來了回來的時候會議是休息狀態接著馬上要開會了但是他就說休息狀態主席不在他就要走這個就是最大的問題那今天審預算的時候我們中間休息難道秘書長也要走嗎"},{"start":162.284,"end":183.035,"text":"沒有今天的會議是持續進行所以沒有那樣我現在沒有在問今天的會議啊我一樣啊我請教你的是那一天沒有人要你走主席也沒有准你走然後你就離開了所以我才請教你嘛這個是現在行政院的官員來立法院備詢的時候的態度嗎是這樣嗎如果會議狀態持續的話我們就不會走了什麼叫做會議狀態持續的話有人宣布上會嗎"},{"start":190.092,"end":212.188,"text":"因為當初我離開了兩點多離開的時候那時候是會議打上的是還沒有開始所以呢所以還沒有開始因為當初的表定是到兩點那場會議下午的時候你有沒有跟張偉聯絡下午的時候後來他那個螢幕上忽然改變了他說這會議已經開始而且現在是休息"},{"start":212.984,"end":239.848,"text":"那這個跟我的認知跟我離開的時候是有漢格的因為我離開的時候那時候兩點多那時候是會議還沒開始那時候照理說會議如果還沒有開始那這個會議已經結束來我請教一下趙偉下午的時候您跟他聯絡的時候他是怎麼講的他說他馬上回來他也回來啦而且剛剛不是秘書長你回來以後是誰要你走的我說過了是我自己啊"},{"start":241.723,"end":257.69,"text":"張偉請你回來 你也回來了然後你決定自己要走我現在身不自在我這樣講好了啦我現在在給你解釋的機會那你剛剛的解釋我必須要老實的跟秘書長報告我無法接受"},{"start":258.63,"end":286.972,"text":"我聽起來昭偉也沒有辦法接受那當然沒有關係啦現在在卓榮泰院長的領導之下行政院的官員大家官威都很大來立法院一副愛來不來我要走就走甚至什麼來來來我們一樣一樣來我們通過了財政收支劃分法你們行政院發言人說什麼"},{"start":288.163,"end":314.389,"text":"收財化法總預算要重編我說他散播假訊息政府帶頭搞認知作戰他否認他說什麼沒有沒有沒有我是用假設的語氣我說有可能要重編我的實在是發言人喔是用有可能要重編啦來硬拗那如果要看竹誌我們就來看竹誌來看一下那一天"},{"start":316.912,"end":321.996,"text":"我先講我的立場啦我的行政院發言人搞不清楚狀況自己判斷對社會大眾有可能要從邊是在恐嚇國會還是在恐嚇人民還有臉硬凹喔我們的立場很清楚啊他不下台我清楚地表示我們一定提案發言人是相關的預算"},{"start":345.407,"end":355.389,"text":"我們一定會大砍我說出去的話我一定會兌現其他黨團支持或不支持我們都尊重但這是我們的立場但結果對於自己釋放假訊息毫無反省繼續出來亂喔我為什麼要繼續出來亂喔他說要調逐治稿說我說他說只是可能甚至需要重編"},{"start":375.939,"end":398.664,"text":"可能甚至前面是什麼話 來他說呢明年度的總預算本身就會受到嚴重的衝擊來 請問一下明年的預算指的就是2025年今年的預算民主黨受到什麼衝擊了大院審議的結果什麼叫大院審議的結果因為現在在審議現在在審議什麼那個預算啊 總預算"},{"start":403.097,"end":422.336,"text":"他所講說因為財化法通過所以明年度的預算本身就會受到嚴重的衝擊受到什麼衝擊請說明因為我看不懂啊我完全看不懂啊因為解釋上來講到底那個生效"},{"start":423.562,"end":450.561,"text":"生效日期以後那個是到底是今年的預算到底是114年預算還是從115年預算開始所以行政院的立場是什麼解釋上有一些行政院的立場是什麼行政院立場上114年數我們不會從編就按照這樣大院審議結果我們依法行政院你行政院不就有立場了嗎你行政院的立場採一套發言人出來講另外一套"},{"start":451.894,"end":475.505,"text":"行政院發言人的工作是什麼啊是精準的傳遞行政院的政策立場給全台灣社會知道結果你們派出來的發言人不是精準的傳遞行政院的立場是在散播假訊息發言人表達的是說往後也不是只有今年度可能往後等一下等一下他講的是"},{"start":476.869,"end":493.626,"text":"大家不是在看逐字稿嗎?我就在上面給你看啊!明年度的預算本身就會受到嚴重的衝擊如何受到嚴重的衝擊嘛?什麼叫做我不要生氣?你們行政院發言人可以這樣子出來隨便亂講話?我在給你嚴肅的講這件事情"},{"start":499.605,"end":523.812,"text":"你在上面跟我耍水皮一次喔我沒有跟你耍水皮一次我說發言人已經對外說明了所以發言人的說明你是接受的是嗎是吧行政院的發言人出來散播假訊息不道歉還硬凹說要看逐字稿說他只是甚至可能那甚至可能前一句是什麼"},{"start":524.929,"end":553.308,"text":"明年度的預算就會受到嚴重的衝擊 衝擊在哪裡所以我才今天請教你衝擊在哪裡啊你想來給大家聽聽嘛要看審議的結果看什麼審議的結果總預算審議的結果總預算審議的結果跟財政收支劃分法有什麼關係最後不管怎麼樣還是要看立法院審議的結果對啊 那跟財政收支劃分法有什麼關係你有沒有要重編啊你有沒有要重編啊"},{"start":556.496,"end":557.096,"text":"我有說錯嗎好接下來請第一學中委員"}]}},{"id":"158643","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158643","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e581a98009cdc7ea84c921d2cbf1168e406a11e77586d9faf3e3ae72de851352f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"12:13:57 - 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那我希望說要盡快不論是衛福部或勞動部真的這一部分一些配套我覺得應該要盡快好 謝謝謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"158638","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158638","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5fb7b9c71597015eac921d2cbf1168e406a11e77586d9faf3a776b5aef8effbec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"11:59:12 - 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也是學生嗎 也是雙重身份他是住院醫師 他有學生的身份嗎應該是沒有 完全沒有學生的身份那其實今天這個事情之所以社會嘩然了因為這所謂的權威醫生這個權威醫生導致的這個性騷案其實讓全社會都非常的驚訝和訝異"},{"start":145.626,"end":159.07,"text":"那這個過程中就透露出來我們整個制度和文化上很大的缺陷和很大的問題喔所以今天我剛剛特別問這個問題其實我也有聽今天早上所有的這個質詢"},{"start":161.031,"end":188.202,"text":"當然我們要依法依規勿枉勿縱可是發現這個問題是兩個部長以及教育部的代表C教授的案子是跨身份跨法規競合的案例如果法律沒有規範義務通報的話那的確是法律的漏洞但是在法律還沒修正之前其實這種跨身份或是跨法規競合的案例其實最常也會出現在實習生的身上"},{"start":189.147,"end":214.926,"text":"對不對 所以您也點頭那請問一下各位萬一如果未來又發生這樣的性騷案件請問各單位要如何處理才不會拖延啊是 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那這個部分是不是應該也要由這個台大來做一個典範不然當初這個所有的事情就讓真的是讓大家很震驚啊這些婦產科醫生看了多少的女性然後二十幾年來然後只有最近這些案子被人家曝光那二十幾年來有多少人是受害者不知道所以這個部分我希望這個是不是可以請不管是部長或是我們台大校方跟醫院我知道"},{"start":501.561,"end":524.874,"text":"這個主委你是照依法你覺得是依你的法依法行政去處理可是我相信您身為這個女性的醫生你一定很感同身受對我們其實對受害者的學生我們有給他很清楚的比如說所有他們只要能夠願意來跟我們談我們都提供很多的隨時待命所以這個部分"},{"start":526.194,"end":549.739,"text":"這部分還要麻煩我們會再繼續努力另外吳院長我也要跟您說一下你剛剛有一直說就是大家給機會來把這件事情闡述清楚其實我覺得這一次真的是讓社會好好的審視到底發生了什麼事情所以今天的質詢很有意義但是吳院長你剛剛說這個絕對沒有受這個壓力其實我要告訴你當初的報導不是指你們有受到壓力其實是台大校方說校長有受到壓力"},{"start":551.099,"end":568.457,"text":"這是台大校方可是校長沒有來但是當然其實我上次質詢也說校長挺住了壓力所以才讓這件事情爆出來也沒有因此不讓他就是讓他就是去退休這我我是認同的但是因為就是有背後到底什麼壓力存在這個校長沒來根本不清楚所以我要告訴院長是這樣"},{"start":569.478,"end":598.253,"text":"所以這個到底是有沒有人有沒有什麼問題沒關係你不用回答因為這個問題不是在你身上不過我是回答剛才廖委員提到的我們之後我想會不會預防生理治療其實在這件事情調查的當中我們就已經在很多的醫務行政會議甚至我們在主治醫師座談會我們都有宣傳這個性騷髮甚至我們請了王立榮這個專家來跟所有的人講"},{"start":599.153,"end":616.422,"text":"所以這一方面我們是希望可以預防剩餘治療還有管道的安全性因為你們管道要讓這個受害人要有信任可以去申訴因為醫界可能很多人覺得圈圈小有一些權威性真的是在醫界權威度非常高根本不敢講"},{"start":617.342,"end":646.562,"text":"對不對那你要怎麼樣去做到這個透明又保障讓他們所謂的透明不是就是對他來講他是不會被其他這些加害者的周遭的人去通風報信的這個狀況我要請這個院長和我們的高副院長是不是在這部分繼續努力還有文化上面這個職場的整個制度的問題是不是要再拜託你們成為再一次成為台灣在這部分的標杆因為我想真的不會是只有存在在所謂台大的體系裡面"},{"start":647.382,"end":672.004,"text":"我們有決心一定會把它做好而且我們一定會做好保障我們也在院方的層次裡面事實上這些人包括以這次涉案科部的主任他是一直到4月才被調查小組約談他才知道他們科部有這種事情所以我們怕一開始就讓科部的主任知道的話就會影響這個"},{"start":672.765,"end":696.602,"text":"好那我們也順便講一下王祖密啊這個有人施壓或什麼的請你們不要害怕該做的就要做不知道有沒有因為校長也沒來嘛本來想問的大家也沒來那沒關係你不用回答因為你也沒辦法帶他回答誰知道對不對也沒有辦法調查嘛也沒有什麼也沒有辦法徵竊聽或什麼都沒有辦法所以我只是要提醒的就是說針對這種事情就應該要勇敢的去承擔勇敢的去處理"},{"start":698.283,"end":711.419,"text":"那這次當然你們也並沒有受到什麼所謂的壓力就改變了你們的決策但是這部分要請你們也盡速處理那謝謝我們台大校方院方還有衛福部長也可以先回座我問一下勞動部長好像時間不太夠一分鐘我先問一下好我直接跳好了"},{"start":720.765,"end":738.178,"text":"我想要問一下部長有關身心障礙者的權益保障法因為上一屆在審議時因為內容不周全就遭到障礙團體的抗議然而在去年5月障礙團體也已經達成共識也召開記者會希望盡速的審查"},{"start":738.999,"end":759.706,"text":"然後截至到第十屆結束的時候到現在還沒有排審那第十一屆剛開始的時候其實前行政院長陳建仁也承諾說520前要這個送交草案但現在已經到年底了請問卡關的原因是什麼為什麼沒有送版本到立法院來跟文說明申選法的主責是衛福部講錯了衛福部對OK"},{"start":767.82,"end":785.808,"text":"非常感謝廖委員對於本案的關心我們現在其實部內已經我們已經做完相關的修訂那我們現在目前已經送到院那邊我們現在目前我想我們的法規會我想廖委員您非常關心的就是說其實最重要可能是有關自立生活這個部分"},{"start":786.608,"end":802.255,"text":"自立生活這邊我們現在目前也已經有相關的一個的一個延命那這個部分我想其實院長他也非常非常關心我們的整個自立生活這邊我們的相關的一些的一些規範這部分我是不是也請主席所以大概什麼時候"},{"start":803.65,"end":829.858,"text":"報告委員我們大概現在開完部內的法規會之後我們1月底因為還遇到過年所以可能會是2月的時候上旬的時候會送到行政院這邊那行政院也承諾說會盡快來召開法規的一個審查那我們希望說可以盡快來完成相關的程序所以剛剛你有提到我們次長有提到說就是個人制度協助制度沒有入法上次的那這一次呢這一次會嗎"},{"start":831.272,"end":846.759,"text":"我們有研擬了大概一個條文希望把這個部分來強調不要跟委員報告上一次之所以沒有辦法完全照某些團體的意思把它入法的原因是團體之間有兩派的做法因為其他的團體非常多的團體認為"},{"start":848.76,"end":871.384,"text":"心理重建生活重建等等跟自力生活是相同重要的他們不答應說單獨的列一條所以我們做了很多工作在兩邊很多團體之間的協調那最後最近可能這個協調比較完成了好那所以希望你們儘速將這版本送到立法院來好不好因為已經拖了蠻久而且也超過很超過之前陳建仁院長說的時間好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158618","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158618","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e575375356aed9307ff82bf49b3fbaf4a58d75bdfb612c74e0ba4ee290179ce0185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:45:46 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只有一個法 爭議的只有一個法 就是限訴法他已經要知情總統宣告了那這限訴法知情總統宣告的意思是什麼就是在你現在大法官只有八個名額的情況下先把你手剁掉 就是說你這八個大法官不能來處理違憲了"},{"start":107.324,"end":122.309,"text":"不能來處理可能才化法或選罷法可能造成的違憲沒有這個法庭了好接下來確定這件事情之後接下來我再來處理才化法跟選罷法當然才化法裡面我很多要質詢"},{"start":124.209,"end":138.775,"text":"這個秘書長的選罷法就是先有可能他有私心因為後面還有一個案子就是選票加得票數加1的這個案子內政委員會還要再等等這個案子一下那才化法呢他就是怕我們接下來"},{"start":139.435,"end":167.61,"text":"可能要針對這個憲法訴訟對於立法權是不是嚴重的侵害到行政權的部分那祕書長過去也是我們國發會的主委主管我們台灣非常多的重大建設包含我在上一個會期其實我是在經濟委員會來質詢祕書長有關左營跟男子的幾項建設我想祕書長到現在還是非常的清楚經過這個才化法之後祕書長我想要請教你"},{"start":168.53,"end":182.24,"text":"新台17縣在2024年12月初的時候我趕回去我的選區趕回去左營做南段第二段工程的動工新台17縣南段第二段工程中央補助"},{"start":185.635,"end":195.163,"text":"總經費一共28.4億南段二期總經費9.6億總共加起來中央補助的經費有將近14億地方負擔的19.9億加4億未來"},{"start":205.291,"end":233.231,"text":"在這個財化法之後被地方政府拿到了很多這些經費之後中央還有沒有可能這樣子補助那我當然新台17縣必須要在2026年完成通車這個會不會影響到通車的時程這是我非常擔心的第二個捷運子縣在去年的9月份高雄市政府送出可行性評估接下來的綜合規劃包含"},{"start":234.451,"end":247.217,"text":"男子交流道、鐵路立體化,這些工程其實都在秘書長在國會主委任內核准高雄市送出來的這些中央的補助,會不會未來產生這些金費的比例的變化?秘書長,這個要怎麼調整?"},{"start":255.675,"end":271.27,"text":"我剛才特別說明就是說今年總預算的部分已經在立法院審議那審議最後的結果經費怎麼樣這個就要看大院審議的結果好 今年如果地方建設經費都不要動的話我相信每一個委員都"},{"start":272.208,"end":298.046,"text":"申付選民的請託 地方建設經費不能少就是明年的部分 現在我們3月份因為2026年這個新台磁期限要通車今年度你錢沒有花下去 明年度怎麼通車這個就是我們最在意的問題會不會錢下放給地方之後那其他縣市有可能每個縣市都希望做軌道"},{"start":298.846,"end":307.058,"text":"那中央又要在原本的軌道的建設的補助的比例下會產生一些變化"},{"start":307.931,"end":335.848,"text":"如果明年如果按照現在才化法的規範目前來講的話明年的確會受到一些影響這樣其實就是嚴重的侵害到中央政府對於全台灣資源以及建設分佈的一個佈局的問題所以才化法嚴重侵蝕到嚴重侵害到行政院對於全台灣建設跟這個佈局的問題我覺得這個要非常的重視"},{"start":336.708,"end":363.661,"text":"所以我們支持行政院必須要用任何方式來提出救濟以利台灣的發展這樣講民主黨你同意嗎是對因為財務法本來它的意思就是要調節不同地方之間的這個盈虧嘛但是以現在的方案以現在的條文通過的話變成越有錢原來越有錢財政好的這個縣市它會越好"},{"start":364.585,"end":383.46,"text":"那原來越不好的縣市它的財政狀況就會越糟糕我相對來講如果少掉中央補助的話那這個就跟原來的意思事實上是有一點不是那麼相符在主委你過去幾年在主導的很多台灣的重大建設包含軌道建設的佈局"},{"start":385.862,"end":403.386,"text":"未來其實包含台中也好要拿中央的補助或者是台南或者是高雄也好要拿中央的軌道的補助一定都是減少但是南二都尤其台南跟高雄在這一次統籌分配"},{"start":404.331,"end":432.372,"text":"在這一次財化法的分配下分別拿到最後的兩名的補助所以對高雄跟台南來講更沒有主導軌道工程的這些主導能力還有上個禮拜院長剛來到高雄跟我們行政院包含南部服務中心都有到高雄車站來宣布高鐵難移的高雄方案裡面"},{"start":433.532,"end":453.217,"text":"嚴重都影響到行政院可支配的軌道的能力包含高鐵包含這些軌道運輸我們提出非常憂慮所以這一個財化法的未來的救濟的管道我們還是支持行政院繼續的來用窮盡所有的辦法來處理包含今年度是不是有可能提出追加預算民主黨"},{"start":456.505,"end":479.266,"text":"有沒有可能來提出追加預算就是今年的部分因為已經大院在審議預算要看那個預算的結果那如果說今年照原來我們編的部分三減的數目沒有很大的情況之下就可以照原來的計畫來進行那如果財化法那確定公告實施必須要給這些縣市三千多億的話行政院怎麼調整預算"},{"start":480.975,"end":505.627,"text":"這個就是我們因為我們還沒有收到那個來文實際上他就說不要去文啊就是要先讓你限訴法先不行啊先不能提訴訟啊沒有來文的話他就沒有生效有一天生效了假設三月生效了你開始要補助地方政府了開始要把這三千多億撥給地方政府了那你中央要原本要補助給縣市政府這些錢不夠了要不要提出追加預算"},{"start":506.292,"end":525.426,"text":"所以如果按照這樣來講的話可能包括地方政府他在預算的編列或執行上就會產生很大的困擾包括中央政府跟地方政府那一些經費原本讓地方政府來做那中央政府這一筆經費就沒有辦法再支出了是不是要朝這個方向還是都還在討論中還在討論當中因為有可能"},{"start":527.734,"end":538.91,"text":"有可能如果提了以後我們還是有可能會針對某一些我們沒有辦法執行比較漢格的部分提出復議那大家是不是有重新可以思考"},{"start":539.793,"end":562.494,"text":"最後剛剛國民黨委員有說你是不是要回去建議行政院長要不要辭職其實台灣的憲法的設計是這樣子如果行政院對於立法院提出來的這個法律案認為沒有辦法執行的時候可以提出復議如果這個提出復議在立法院之後立法院對行政院的方式是提出不信任案而不是要求行政院長辭職謝謝"},{"start":569.371,"end":570.621,"text":"接着请黄杰委员"}]}},{"id":"158617","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158617","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5b5c22be70f55fa785efe2b3915ec92638d75bdfb612c74e03d33e1e9d2057dc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:36:55 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麻煩請部長我請您部長部長早我也好"},{"start":16.701,"end":36.783,"text":"我想要請教一下本席在上週其實有詢問過因為今天我們外交部主要的內容大概是推動二軌外交跟元首外交的這個部分可是我們從過去幾年我們的外交成果就是我們所有的邦交國掉了幾乎一半"},{"start":37.424,"end":65.106,"text":"那在很多的外交推動上面我們也花了非常多的資源甚至我們在國內很多重要的產業其實我們大概都拿出來當成外交的手段跟工具那如果可以獲得有效的或者正面的那當然可能很多的方式並不是不可以可是包括我們要接收像有一些產業比如說國外"},{"start":67.488,"end":71.371,"text":"快要破產的公司財務有問題的公司我們可能也要去採購這個對我們付出相當龐大可是二軌外交可能顯然在我們的正常外交上面我想要請教部長你對於我們現在目前的邦交國或者我們其他現在友好的關係的國家我們的目前的成果如何"},{"start":91.755,"end":107.461,"text":"在惡鬼外交方面我們要感謝美國就是國會支持那透過AIT在執行那個GCTF全球合作訓練架構那也包括這個日本澳大利亞之後現在加了加拿大"},{"start":108.461,"end":123.416,"text":"進來做會員所以我們擴展出去其實很多的合作訓練這個其實是多邊的一種惡鬼外交也可以是這樣講另外我們台灣其實跟比如說我們理念相近國家特別我們第一島鏈還有歐洲幾乎是"},{"start":127.529,"end":150.421,"text":"就是說有智庫也有我們官員他們比較能夠有辦法抗中那至於有一些地方像東南亞他們真的是比較不管是親中或恐中他們就顧忌很多那我們有些是邀請來台灣那有些用什麼樣的方式去進行惡鬼外交也都很頻繁的在進行最重要是台灣的重要性增加了台灣這個的角色"},{"start":152.242,"end":177.828,"text":"就是要了解我們現在整個中國崛起的威權擴張的挑戰跟這個問題是不能夠不跟台灣有一些交流跟台灣交流是最快的方法部長我大概給你很多的時間做這樣的說明可是我現在要說的是我們正常的外交因為歐洲為什麼他比較不會恐中是因為他距離很遠就跟美國川普總統他講的"},{"start":179.508,"end":203.276,"text":"其實我們的距離高達9000公里以外那我們跟大陸其實我們近在咫尺所以到時候這些會不會來正式協助我們我們不曉得 可是看到俄烏戰爭的時候我們可以很明確的知道其實他們並沒有真正的不管出兵也好或者做實質上面的這些防禦或者攻擊"},{"start":205.357,"end":223.986,"text":"他們大概提供的都是一些武器裝備或者其他的制裁行動那顯然我們面對的可能是更強大的威脅那這一部分我們不曉得美國歐洲或者其他我們剛剛講的五眼聯盟的這些相關的國家可以對我們提供什麼樣的實質幫助可是我們現在比較想要知道的是比較務實的部分因為我們編了非常多的外交預算可是我們"},{"start":231.109,"end":249.573,"text":"如果連上週我們一直不斷的詢問包括在預算審查的時候也有特別詢問到的可是到現在沒有一個具體的解決方案我認為我們的外交預算真的是太多了因為他根本做不到什麼事情尤其是連他不是總預算的問題而是外交部需不需要這麼多的預算首先我想要請教的是在上週我們已經問到"},{"start":258.635,"end":277.429,"text":"就是沙烏地阿拉伯阿曼約旦這些在台住處他們跟阿拉伯在台商務協會這個民間協會發生這個問題到目前為止我們看不到他的解決方案因為我看到我們提供的資料這個是從112年2月的時候這三個駐台機構已經分別給外交部"},{"start":285.734,"end":294.421,"text":"區提到說這個商會其實他是有問題的希望我們外交部給予釐清或者甚至在國內應該做什麼樣的處置可是這個是112年2月現在是114年的元月等於快要兩年的時間這中間我們做了什麼到目前為止我只是詢問說"},{"start":309.012,"end":322.066,"text":"我們有沒有發函給這三個住處因為他們畢竟是官方而且是正式的也被我們認可的一些一個代表那我們到底做了什麼樣的協處的動作兩年"},{"start":325.974,"end":352.547,"text":"來我請我們亞非市長來說明想跟委員報告這個議題基本上分為三個部分第一個部分就是簡單講就好了因為你們已經講太多了ACCT它本身就是冒用官方性質這個部分已經處理過了這個沒問題嘛對不對對已經處理過了那第二個部分呢可以怎麼處理它是冒用官方那個我們已經發函了而且調查局還有那個警政署還有我們內政部都已經處理好了這個事情已經是告一段落怎麼處理好了"},{"start":353.227,"end":376.554,"text":"發函然後也強制他不可以再使用了不可以再使用什麼不可以再使用官方性質具體的把它講完就是說他不能再冒用代表阿拉伯國家的一個助台那事實上我們部裡面也發過通函也告知所有的一些部內的單位還有相關機關他不具官方的性質因為所有具官方性質的助台是必須在我們禮賓處要有登記的他貨款敘利亞的贈災款你們知道怎麼用了嗎"},{"start":383.128,"end":400.092,"text":"這個部分他是依據他自己民團的那個在做處理我們在國內所有的相關社團如果要募款的時候都必須要經過我們所有內政部他必須要認可不是你什麼民團他就可以這樣募款他必須依據衛福部的相關規則所以像這個部分你們怎麼做這部分我們有通知那個相關的機關就他不具任何官方的身份內政部還有警政署你外交部明知道他已經有問題你可以做的是什麼"},{"start":412.043,"end":433.036,"text":"我們也一直跟他保持密切的溝通跟誰?跟誰保持密切的溝通?這三個住台我們平常都有密切的溝通我們上一次有問說我們有沒有發函給這三個住處他們有外交豁免權嗎?民事形式有嗎?這個就是我要跟委員報告的第二個部分有或沒有就好 有或沒有"},{"start":434.557,"end":442.706,"text":"有或沒有?沙烏地有,那另外兩個代表處是沒有沒有的原因是什麼?沒有是因為雙邊沒有互惠那過程中我們一直美國給我們有沒有互惠?如果我們的國人,我們一個軍人在美國打人的時候美國會不會給我們這些相關的這些外交豁免?"},{"start":454.199,"end":462.784,"text":"會不會如果有我們的武官派在美國如果他喝醉酒他去打了美國的公民他們會不會給我們外交豁免"},{"start":465.96,"end":470.263,"text":"報告委員我們現在就是說非邦交國的部分簡單講就好了有沒有給我們外交豁免美國有沒有給我們有給我們把資料提供給我們不要再講機密了今天這個已經發生在我們的自己的土地上面我們的國人被美國人毆打的時候今天為什麼"},{"start":486.051,"end":498.725,"text":"那個AIT的人員他不去找外交部他直接找國防部他是怎麼處理的今天他是直接打給國防部然後直接把人帶出來甚至叫他們不要提告人就走了"},{"start":499.793,"end":518.325,"text":"今天我們認可的官方的代表在這裡被剛剛你們說的違規違法的民間團體組織被他們提告被他們騷擾被他們霸凌被他們在網路上面惡意的攻擊可是我們一點作為都沒有那你們要這些預算做什麼"},{"start":520.663,"end":533.369,"text":"你到現在還沒有處理的結果部長我相信您說你接任部長這個位置沒有很久的時間可是這個案子我們不斷在預算為什麼我們會特別提出來這是國格的問題今天"},{"start":537.884,"end":543.368,"text":"有人可以打我們的國人你說他有他的身份是什麼他是AIT正式的人員嗎是嗎你們把如果要這樣我們必須要追究他到底是什麼樣的身份背景因為我們今天不是人家的殖民地今天如果你要對等那請把相關的資料提供給國人很清楚的知道我們是怎麼樣對等我們有很多我們都認為我們"},{"start":564.142,"end":568.029,"text":"可能比較高額的資源或者我們什麼樣的一些"},{"start":569.584,"end":593.04,"text":"條件我們可以在雙邊可以獲得比較好的發展的情況之下我們都同意可是你今天他們美國在台協會的人員我不知道他是不是正式的在台協會的人員如果你今天要在這裡講那你又把它講清楚而且書面資料一定要提供上一次你明明說要提供書面資料後來又變機敏為什麼有機敏今天我們的人員在國外或者外國的"},{"start":600.144,"end":617.832,"text":"駐外使節或者相關的人員他們必須受到我們重視的時候這個有什麼機敏可言所以在這裡我想我們希望的平等互惠還有國格我們在處理這個事情的時候我不知道為什麼你們怕什麼你們只是發個文給他說你到底有或沒有"},{"start":618.712,"end":642.811,"text":"在1971年退出聯合國的時候我們曾經經歷雪崩式的斷交約旦在這個時候贈送他們外館的土地我們目前使用的就是約旦送的我們現在雙邊都還有一些國安還有軍人還有一些教育上面的交流持續在進行中他們很快的已經要停止這樣子的交流"},{"start":643.712,"end":651.858,"text":"就是因為我們的處置兩年了人家一個晚上打人的他都可以把他帶走而且還叫他不需要提告這個部分我們外交做不到外交部做不到那你們編錢到底要做什麼另外尼加拉瓜我們的住處是我們花錢買的我們花人民的納稅錢後來時間你們說時間來不及本來說要提告"},{"start":668.43,"end":675.954,"text":"後來也沒有提告我們用一元的價值捐給天主教會可是後來白白的就送給中國了這一種你們連一句話都講不出來人家送給我們外館現在你還在用可是你對待人家的方式是這樣部長你的看法怎麼樣跟委員報告 委員所說的外交已經基於對等跟互惠那我們如果有外交豁免"},{"start":695.445,"end":720.783,"text":"一定是就是對等的啦但是如果在執行上因為具體的個案有沒有涉及哪個主管機關比如委員我在第一時間知道之後我想他們既然在台灣涉處啦我站在外交部來講的都是我們要去關心的不能夠什麼一下子什麼徵訊啦 約談然後另外如果說有一些影響到他們這些在台灣公權力的執行我們當然也馬上跟內政部"},{"start":721.363,"end":725.944,"text":"我因為我們留給時間我們留給時間我現在只是一個比較你不管面對比較強的國家或比較弱的國家或者跟我們關係並不是你們認為不那麼密切的國家你都應該是對等所謂的對等是我們的人被欺負了你也不能幫他拍拍屁股我們自己自認倒楣然後你對很多的國家那你應該處理啊如果他查出來的身份如果不是那你就應該處理"},{"start":748.049,"end":753.59,"text":"因為這有涉及到內政警政署相關的單位我要再說警政署或其他那外交部就不需要這麼多經費我已經強調三次了我現在在說的是我們算審過可是當我們覺得你們不值得要這麼多的經費的時候你們外交部的預算跟過去真的增加很多可是我們看到我們邦交國不斷的流失甚至連這樣的處置都沒有辦法"},{"start":773.834,"end":777.236,"text":"聖路西亞到現在他的網站上面還掛著我們幫他寫的那篇文章我們派出去的一個詐騙販毒的外交替代役到幫他們的警察上課的這個文章到目前為止我剛剛再詢問了一下他還在聖路西亞的官網上所以你們一直在說你們做了多少事然後可以做什麼有什麼樣的作為我們不認為你們值得"},{"start":800.846,"end":804.549,"text":"要這麼多的預算這是我再次強調我們到現在還沒有看到這三個住處他們我們的石油其實跟這三個國家就是跟我來跟他們見個面啦"},{"start":815.819,"end":825.607,"text":"因為每次委員執行我就交班 他們跟我的報告也都有接觸也確實依照我們外交的關係在處理那我是覺得 如果委員這麼感謝我來關懷一下部長 為什麼會特別舉美國的例子我們不跟美國說什麼話 人家害怕我們去找工作 還不可以跟我們的人說"},{"start":836.756,"end":839.979,"text":"今天有另外一件事情你卻處理了兩年都處理不好這是什麼樣的外交對等有處理中我們有發函以外我本身也在備詢的時候有提到那些有涉及違法我們就要"},{"start":852.067,"end":870.325,"text":"聽我講完所謂的查辦到剛剛你有聽到查辦了什麼嗎今天人家如果連發生直接的民事糾紛甚至有毆打他都可以把人帶走我們現在不是說有發函有所有的單位就是對他這些沒有用沒有效益的章"},{"start":871.045,"end":894.15,"text":"部長我這裡有你們發函的那種為什麼我會再問就是因為你們沒有做就是因為你們沒有做就是因為你們沒有做約旦已經要終止要把人員送到我們台灣的這樣的計畫這個維持了四五十四十幾年這樣子的計畫他們要終止了部長你要正視今天如果他真的終止你們的預算應該全部砍掉謝謝"},{"start":897.368,"end":903.753,"text":"投資當然我們希望盡量招商啦不過投資跟我們的政務啊還是對我們來努力"}]}},{"id":"158616","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158616","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e50975f884b5372a64f82bf49b3fbaf4a58d75bdfb612c74e074881cda51d8a84a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:33:26 - 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剛剛你講其實你自己都講得有點心虛喔那還是說這個是因為是賴清德總統要求的所以你們才提出這樣的副意"},{"start":111.37,"end":134.021,"text":"沒有耶 我們行政院今天的院會我想就會提啊對 就是剛剛講的嘛 你說會不會通過不知道嗎顯然是今天會提 那應該也是會提出嘛那而且對於這個行政院對於立法院通過的這個法律案呢本來應該依法執行 但是在憲法增修條文沒有修正之前喔附議案如果沒有通過 院長最嚴重的部分應該是要辭職"},{"start":135.322,"end":148.573,"text":"那現在當然這個規定已經沒有了所以我們現在覺得行政院對於附議案的提出變得非常的噁心那所以如果這樣的話那行政院長要不要用辭職來表達通過與否的決心呢"},{"start":150.53,"end":169.259,"text":"沒有辦法幫院長好 那你可以轉達給院長因為行政院目前我們看到就是都把復議案當作噁心而且復議復上癮了每一案只要我們立法院通過的決議通通都要提出復議的話那這樣對立法院來說是非常的不尊重那這是卓院長對我們立法院該有的態度嗎"},{"start":170.602,"end":174.366,"text":"因為以憲法訴訟法來說真的看不出有什麼自然的難行之處也看不出來有什麼爭議所以我覺得既然這個約會是下午會開"},{"start":185.798,"end":209.071,"text":"希望大家針對這個部分 行政院應該是要選來了不要再提出複議另外再提到 我想行政院在12月23號有召開記者會當時的發言人有特別提到 還有包括陳淑芝主席長也都有特別提到說財化法修正過後 中央政府每年會減少"},{"start":210.512,"end":236.893,"text":"三千七百五十三億所以呢因此法律的這個扣掉法律的義務支出之外必須三減百分之二十八趴然後有哪些會受到影響那請問一下喔秘書長現在內建部、課委會、經濟部、國科會等部會我們都可以看到在他的官方的臉書網站上面說要依這個百分之二十八的比例調減運算請問一下這好像跟中央廚房一樣喔都一樣的一個這個"},{"start":238.154,"end":242.007,"text":"政府單位在臉書上公佈那請問這是行政院要求他們這麼做"},{"start":244.773,"end":266.925,"text":"我想因為他們我想各部會所要表達的是說他可能的影響那終究還是會有一些影響對中央政府的施政還是會有一些排行上可是剛剛國長剛剛也特別提到了我們現在其實針對這個部分明年一百就是今年一百一十四年的會受到影響嗎不會嗎今年不會對而且這個部分的話是在但是今年"},{"start":269.326,"end":293.239,"text":"今年 今年不會受到影響吧 因為國際化法還沒有送過但是呢 你看喔 12月23的時候 就是你們的這個行政院的發言人李慧芝喔 說要從編那現在當然她硬拗說是 當時是假設性的用語啦對 她現在是硬拗嘛 那當然釋放這個假訊息 造謠是今年政府應該是打擊的重點吧"},{"start":294.554,"end":309.462,"text":"沒有啦到處都說不能詐騙還有怎麼打詐司法通過那講講自放假證是一個造謠是不是應該我覺得這樣的發言人不但不適任而且也陷著院長於不義所以這樣的發言人應該是要下台"},{"start":310.442,"end":335.749,"text":"那當然針對這個部分我想現在雖然都說114年的預算沒有從編可是我們看到所有這個部會的這個臉書都還是寫著這相關說這個因為如果這個財務法通過之後會三減28%的預算那所以呢接下來哪些案哪些案呢現在有沒有辦法通過那針對這個部分請問秘書長是不是可以要求他們應該要發澄清的帖文不要再這樣誤導民眾"},{"start":337.325,"end":358.671,"text":"包委我想這樣就是說因為今年的預算已經在送大會審議了嘛結果要看大會審議的結果但是後年我們從邊如果現在的承諾法按照現在的法典我們現在講的是2014年吧我們現在講的是2014年不要講到後年對啊就是講的我們現在講的是2014年的預算沒有要從邊嘛可是你們現在講的是在各部會在造謠是說要從邊你可以看到我們現在這個有列出來的我現在有列出來的喔"},{"start":366.493,"end":382.461,"text":"包括國科會 包括經濟部 包括科委會講的都是一一四年的預算啊會三減二十八趴啊那所以說接下來下午我們要我們等一下要審這個我們行政院的這個預算那我們要不要照這樣的標準先三減二十八趴呢"},{"start":383.991,"end":411.77,"text":"我們沒有要重編對 沒有要重編那我覺得有這樣子的謠言也許各部會都誤會這個主計長的意思都誤會了你們發言人的意思那是不是要求他們澄清不要再這樣不時的貼文甚至到地方去的時候在會堪的時候都用這樣的方式去恐嚇人民這是非常不應該的那希望秘書長這個部分要要求各部會要不然就會讓我們覺得這就是行政院的命令那另外再請教一下秘書長就是有關我們的這個"},{"start":415.232,"end":429.507,"text":"總統在昨天的文稿也有特別的對於元旦談話後的接受媒體的提問有提到兩岸是不是要恢復觀光旅遊的議題那總統有說希望能夠開啟觀光的協商那兩岸的觀光團"},{"start":430.428,"end":449.874,"text":"在是屬於這個跨部會的議題也涉及於國格跟國安所以行政院對此應該要有上位指導的做法那請問一下總統都已經開口要啟動協商請問行政院會有怎麼樣的一個具體的做回我們能不能釋出善意開放組團複入因為事實上我們今年2024的入境的旅遊人數預估是1000萬次實際上只有785萬次然後另外呢"},{"start":457.196,"end":482.594,"text":"我們今年1到10月出境的旅客已經達到1416萬多人但入境的旅客只有620萬人所以逆差已經來到796萬多人次也創下歷史新高所以這個逆差推估之後大概會超過7500億所以針對這個部分是不是請民務長認為這個能夠說明一下行政委員有沒有什麼具體的作為"},{"start":483.991,"end":491.881,"text":"行政院的一向的立場就是希望兩岸之間可以對等協商那因為觀光的議題來講的話應該是他不開放他們團個到我們這邊來所以這個就"},{"start":499.811,"end":523.138,"text":"這個部分我想其實總統已經講了他希望說可以開庭所以是不是要主動的我們來去做一個這樣子的探討那另外剛剛講的都是入客可是事實上不只入客很多國外的觀光客來的也少那會有這樣的問題行政院沒有掌握到還是說你們覺得這個也不重要因為行政院有一個叫觀光振興諮詢會議是嗎"},{"start":524.938,"end":528.182,"text":"會 會開會 請問一下最近一次 這個是在112年7月20號制定的這個諮詢會議的設計要點那請問到目前為止第一次開會是什麼時候"},{"start":540.646,"end":555.051,"text":"我們很快就會開那就是一年多來一次都沒有開嗎因為專案會議是持續在開啦你剛剛講的那個諮詢會議但是一年多來一次都沒開過對不對最近就會開對那就是一年多來一次都沒開最近才會開那所以你說為什麼我們的觀光會這麼慘"},{"start":562.793,"end":585.234,"text":"就是因為根本行政院也不重視我們的觀光產業要不然怎麼可能這樣的一個諮詢會議一年多了都沒開然後現在說農曆年前要開 是嗎對 那觀光業已經棲產這麼久了所以說希望秘書長能夠正視這個問題那最後再一點時間我想要請教一下就是這個霸凌的事件因為我想"},{"start":585.874,"end":599.91,"text":"今天是我們專案會議的重點就是針對你們因為事實上現在行政院已經有變成職場霸凌的重災區光媒體拼熱的就有三件就是消保處的處長公關處的處長還有秘書處的處長那當根據你們剛剛的報告裡面說兩岸是有"},{"start":608.704,"end":631.324,"text":"兩案是有這個已經立案調查了那秘書處的霸凌案則未有具體的事證剛剛你們的報告是這樣嘛那我想剛剛有一些委員也特別提到你們講說其實從12月7號這個案子發生到至今已經快一個月了那當然我們有提到說秘書處行政院會在一個月內"},{"start":632.305,"end":656.124,"text":"要求他們在一個月內提出報告不過我記得卓院長針對其他部位的霸凌案他都要求要一週內提出報告那可是呢反而是行政院院本部都要求一個月才提出報告所以這有一點 這個真的是寬宜慮己 嚴以待人的一個狀況尤其是剛剛聽到這個紐約委員有提到說針對這個部分請教民主黨什麼時候提出報告"},{"start":659.406,"end":680.743,"text":"你也講說一個月要不要兩個月那其他部會你們要求一週那結果自己院本部為什麼這麼久了還沒提出來所以人事總署已經對外確定就是一加一就是一個月然後最多可以再延一個月所以當時的院長院長提出一個禮拜嘛那只有你們說要一個月一個禮拜因為說老實話"},{"start":682.505,"end":700.182,"text":"所以我想重點 我想重點也不能都提給外部人 其實外部人我相信都很願意配合這樣的一個霸凌事件所以還是希望 因為從現在 事實上我們現在一連串的這個不管是從不倫戀 霸凌 公器私用 都發生在行政院的院本部所以還是希望我們的這個領導全國部會的行政院"},{"start":703.965,"end":720.892,"text":"一定要嚴格的來去處理這樣的問題不要讓霸凌案讓國人看到就是我們的這個讓行政院的公信力降到谷底還是希望秘書長針對這個部分能夠盡快提出不要讓我們的這個這些行政的這個人員都受到這麼大的一個壓力好的好嗎好謝謝秘書長好接下來請李博"}]}},{"id":"158625","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158625","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5082ec3acfd6f684bf82bf49b3fbaf4a5671cb7f8abfc27fffb433ea9b5ad6db25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:13:22 - 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有嗎"},{"start":66.601,"end":81.679,"text":"他如果當時實施那當時實施就沒有實施嘛今年就沒有從編而且也沒有要實施那內政部為什麼要減少28%這他自己要放口袋喔不是沒有這樣我覺得大家針對財化法就就事論事啦"},{"start":82.119,"end":97.865,"text":"因為二十幾年前大家都說財務法沒有修嘛那賴清德總統在當市長的時候也說要修嘛對於版本如果有意見大家可以來討論但不用講那麼多政治語言嘛就沒有要減百分之二十八那內政部可以這樣公然造謠喔民主黨你可不可以節制一下你們的政務官啊"},{"start":104.051,"end":118.88,"text":"國民黨修裁劃法就是毀憲亂政民進黨的立委包括之前蘇貞昌在當主席的時候帶著當時的台南市長賴清德說裁劃法十幾年沒修罵那時候的中央說那時候的中央怠惰不願意處理難處理的問題"},{"start":120.501,"end":145.582,"text":"那個時候就不是毀憲亂政現在國民黨修就毀憲亂政我真的很痛心啊看到民進黨的政務官老是政治語言欺騙社會大眾領著民脂民膏拿著納稅人的薪水然後到處欺騙大眾我真的聽不下去啦然後再來秘書長我覺得除了搞政治鬥爭之外行政院應該要注意一個我覺得很"},{"start":146.775,"end":169.347,"text":"很危險的現象今天我們的題目叫做什麼霸凌對不對因為我發現行政院有一個部會霸凌很嚴重經濟部你知道為什麼嗎你要去注意一下你知道經濟部次長在郭志輝部長上任之後三個都要走了你知道這是嗎第一個林全仁然後再來陳正琦然後連錦江什麼時候要走"},{"start":170.795,"end":188.013,"text":"大概三月吧三月要走你有看過您當那個政府官應該蠻久的吧在政府機關服務也蠻久的吧你有沒有看過一個部長上任不到九個月下面三個次長都要走人的你有沒有看過你有沒有看過"},{"start":191.648,"end":215.553,"text":"可能有個人的規劃嘛當然都個人規劃嘛每一個離職都個人規劃嘛我看到那時候陳正琦要離開的時候郭志輝也是說尊重每一個人的生涯規劃啦每一個要離職的人都是做生涯規劃啦這是標準答案啦可是一個部長上任沒多久三個次長都要離開你們行政院都不會覺得很誇張喔"},{"start":217.571,"end":244.734,"text":"我們現在在講霸凌 問我之前大家講勞動部有一個指標說他可能有霸凌就是他流動率很高嘛很多公務人員進到公家機關 到了勞動部寧可辭職也不要幹因為霸凌很嚴重嘛那今天經濟部長上任後 三個次長離開你覺得都是生涯規劃嗎你真的覺得都是生涯規劃嗎 什麼生涯規劃問我以前都沒有這個生涯規劃 換作智慧以後就有生涯規劃"},{"start":245.885,"end":273.252,"text":"你有沒有去了解?秘書長你有沒有去了解?您是要做各部會協調溝通嘛你有沒有去了解這個現象有沒有?據我了解像陳正吉次長事實上他在520那時候他當時就表達他要退休了啦那時候部長說請他看能不能因為在政權轉軌的過程當中可不可以多留一段時間讓他同意那時候就講好到12月底"},{"start":273.692,"end":275.795,"text":"那時候已經先講好了啦他臉緊張欸臉緊張的話因為他家庭還是"},{"start":282.912,"end":308.633,"text":"爸爸要照顧啊 這些情況每個人都有檯面上理由 這就不尋常嘛而且秘書長 你知道今年啊川普上任之後是一個經濟非常有可能大變動的一年 你知道嗎你知道這事嗎 結果我們所有有經驗的次長都離開陳正琦已經是我們台灣少數具有大型經貿談判實務經驗的次長而且他在上一次川普在任的時候他就有跟美國交手過"},{"start":309.693,"end":336.179,"text":"這樣的人才你們留不住就說生涯規劃好吧生涯規劃你就走吧連錦章負責產業現在你們經濟部一直在推很多綠能的政策搞得天怒人怨你有沒有看到一個新聞中鋼的員工工會又出來抗議了說經濟部要求中鋼要投資一家叫台灣智能什麼能源公司要做一個平台他們很害怕又要燒2500億有看到這個新聞嗎"},{"start":337.594,"end":352.712,"text":"知道這個事嗎?看到這個事,但是那個是有點誇張啦有沒有誇張是一回事啦,那是因為當時您在做國發會主委的時候,國發基金有投資一個叫做新達海基嘛,新達海基最後怎麼樣,共有64億收場啦"},{"start":355.222,"end":374.516,"text":"所以當然中鋼的員工會緊張嘛現在經濟部任何政策下來他們都怕說中鋼會不會虧損啊會影響到他們的分紅啊影響他們的股價啊那我現在講這個只是說我不是在跟你討論西部的經濟政策而是我們一個一個次長離開正值著我們經濟可能面臨到極大變動的一年"},{"start":376.431,"end":397.245,"text":"行政院有沒有掌握有沒有了解到底是部長的問題還是次長的生涯規劃那我看到部長每一次他因為從企業來的以前聽說他在當企業家的時候常常丟一個方向下面就去研究研究完之後又說這個方向好像好像不可以再換下一個方向然後他的員工可能就疲於奔命這但是他民營企業我們不管"},{"start":398.045,"end":419.97,"text":"現在如果做政務官 政務官如果也是這樣搞每天丟想法出來 叫下面去研究 叫下面去做然後做不出來 然後再換方向很多人當然這樣就受不了啊你有沒有去了解是不是這個情況上一次告訴大家說我們要去菲律賣店你知道這個事嗎 知道嗎然後在立法院大家質詢他他說這只是一個想法而已你知道這個事嗎所以政務官今天可以隨便亂拋想法"},{"start":426.345,"end":448.031,"text":"他是部長欸 部長拋了一個想法 次長就要去研究了啊就研究完之後 發現這個不可行那次長會不會做很多攏事 會不會走錯方向 然後沒有價值感 沒有成就感 沒有功效感覺得好像部長隨便丟一句話 我們就要研究 但最後又不做不如歸去嘛"},{"start":449.229,"end":474.429,"text":"回家養鳥、種花、下棋都比在這邊浪費時間好嘛這個也算是職場霸凌的一種啦所以民主黨你願不願意去了解一下因為我今天在跟你講這個事情不是政治鬥爭我跟你講這是有關於台灣的經濟發展啊因為尤其是我剛剛講了今年的經濟變動可能會很大可不可以去了解一下"},{"start":475.933,"end":501.344,"text":"好 但是據初步的了解還是個人的這個職涯規劃當然是職涯規劃他會跟你講說我是被霸凌嗎或我覺得部長我待不下去嗎你勞動部上次第一次去調查那個北區分署的時候也都說利益良善也都說那個霸凌跟那個員工的輕生沒有直接關係"},{"start":502.935,"end":527.623,"text":"看你用什麼力道去了解嘛你的力道如果只是說 請他來問兩句話當然他都會這樣規劃可是如果你認真的去了解問次長之外 問次長秘書然後甚至去了解整個經濟部的氛圍有沒有我剛剛講那個狀況嘛否則我真的很難理解你之前你也沒有發生過嘛你當政務官的時候 次長連續走三個有沒有沒有嘛 有還是沒有"},{"start":531.687,"end":537.572,"text":"搖頭直接講沒有了我們要收音啦沒有嘛沒有嘛所以你覺得怪不怪"},{"start":539.247,"end":568.013,"text":"為什麼大家都剛好在今年整個規劃剛剛已經有講包括陳振祺次長他事實上在520的時候就已經有這樣的表達然後大家談說那多留一陣子所以這個已經在不是最近才發生的而是在上任之前就是在上任之前就已經沒有我覺得當然這個表面的理由都有可是我們想要了解我們想要您去了解的是說怎麼樣把這些人才把它留下來"},{"start":569.585,"end":590.71,"text":"好不好把這些人才留下來然後部長到底有沒有對一下溝通的問題這個你要去了解嘛你要真的去了解好不好可以嗎不要每次來都在那邊都在講什麼鬥爭的事情把台灣搞得好像都是只有政治口水真正該做都不做我覺得這不是國人的期待啦謝謝好接下來請吳啟明委員"}]}},{"id":"158599","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158599","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e575f08050688b35125efe2b3915ec926309f390aeb082454abd9c4a74a059f27d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"09:25:55 - 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如委員講的因為以前我們外交部比較重視在這個政務啦那反而是僑務是僑委會或者是可能涉及台商是經濟部那我們現在就是說總和外交就是說部部都是外交部人人都是外交官"},{"start":167.927,"end":172.052,"text":"那我們要整合 因為我們有很多外館比如說我這一次到美國去召開我們北美的區域匯報每家地區就總共有16個館處"},{"start":182.107,"end":206.869,"text":"這麼大的能量他都有轄區我們有僑務委員 我們有台商會其實這些人就是草根的力量他對美國的一個政策的形成影響很大我們不能只重視所謂的國會山莊或者是白宮在華府所以這個部分我們現在在推動就是sub-national就是國家下面的比較是地區的"},{"start":208.11,"end":228.86,"text":"整合像川普他有很多支持這個Mega的草根力量就他的調和咖很多其實不是在全國性他是在該州甚至城市下面所以您剛剛提的這一些就是我講的總和外交裡面除了我剛剛講的這個我們僑委會經濟部還包括其實很多的第二代的台美人"},{"start":229.94,"end":250.417,"text":"還有甚至是一些在文化工作上面的這個也都應該整合起來變成一個總和外交的一個隊部長你知道實際上這些單位他們每年在辦他們的年會辦他們的餐會辦他們各式各樣的活動我們的外館啊我們的外館都去做什麼"},{"start":254.914,"end":274.771,"text":"當然受邀就出席嘛所以喬委會 過去是為主我們現在跟喬委會之間有密切的聯繫那我們也會把他列入KPI因為我參加過幾個啦我覺得那都很形式標準的SOP就是先放一段賴總統的影片"},{"start":276.026,"end":288.473,"text":"接下來呢我們駐外館的這個我不知道那個職稱叫什麼可能是叫處長或者是那他就會上台大概講個五分鐘的話然後就開始進行參會"},{"start":290.379,"end":309.206,"text":"那這些處長啊,我看他們也疲於奔命因為這些單位很多那每一場也都會有這些僑務委員參加可是我覺得太流於形式啦那既然要推動總和外交那這些單位的能量啊就是說我們在海外的這些外館啊不要都是人邀請,去那裡致詞去那裡吃飯,就沒有了"},{"start":319.178,"end":340.003,"text":"大家都很累,處長住洛杉磯的或是住舊金山的,很多會都會邀請他們嘛那他們去就是,我覺得好像都一直在應酬,不好應該是想辦法,看怎麼樣把剛剛包括部長提的,這些人,這些台灣人,一味就是很有影響力的"},{"start":341.206,"end":366.658,"text":"包括這次在選舉,因為我選舉期間去,美國在選舉期間,裡面也有人選議員選一個小鎮叫議員,他也很熱情在參與他們美國的政治活動所以這個部分我想外館看要做什麼努力,請部長再回去拜託我們外館的同仁大家及時廣義看要怎麼樣來進行"},{"start":368.943,"end":379.159,"text":"第二個這個課題是說,當我們在做這個總和外交的時候,部長你告訴我總和外交嘛,命也你合的嘛"},{"start":380.833,"end":405.106,"text":"你2025年編多少事情,要做總的外交,還是觀光外交要到觀光署編啦,我們這時候開一個會叫觀光外交,我們開一個會叫科技,開一個會叫文化,像吳斯亞委員也提到文化嘛,跟外交要合在一起。社交部有沒有特別編了什麼樣的專案計畫,要來進行總合外交?"},{"start":406.261,"end":433.754,"text":"總和外交當然是一個政策的方向一個觀念或一套相關的作為我們因為預算是319億已經編列經過委員會已經送這個大會要討論我覺得在於不是說新增加預算當然涉及到的一些比如說我舉個例子像在日本大阪要辦世博"},{"start":434.694,"end":459.027,"text":"我們這上半年下半年呢我們故宮在捷克有百見文物的展出過去就是單一活動可能一個部會在處理那我們現在就提早跟跨部會啊來進行協調那整合所有的力量讓那個活動的效益可以更大就像說去年的巴黎的奧運文化奧運都在那裡所以我們讓他的外交效應極大化"},{"start":459.767,"end":479.397,"text":"那至於說雙邊啦 比如我們現在外交部的榮邦計畫裡面有一些是跟比如說我們涉及到的這些新人員跟探犬 可能跟環境部我們就有雙邊委員會 有工作小組那觀光文化也都是這一些外交部到底是主動還是被動就是說你是要出來盜用這些事情"},{"start":481.139,"end":498.239,"text":"還是說這些單位他們遇到有外交上需要外交部協助你們跳進來還是怎麼樣其實我們因為外管就是外交部所以事情會來找外交部我們就是一個整合的窗口那與其各自為政我們不如變成一個平台"},{"start":498.9,"end":524.773,"text":"因為現在的一個效果就是外館有各個部會派的人啊各支可能他們各支向部本部去報告我們現在在第一線就整合在一起那現在行政院有經濟外交工作小組那我們又透過經濟外交跟榮邦計畫展開雙邊的就雙部會的委員會工作小組所以用這個方式啊我們雖然沒有去做組織改造也沒有增加太多預算但是把資源整合一起走出去好 這個很好"},{"start":525.333,"end":554.118,"text":"那最後一個就問2028的洛杉磯奧運是這跟外交部有關嗎這個很有關係因為我想除了教育部或是未來的運動部其實所有的出訪或是競賽外交部一定是在地在服務比如說我們去參加像世界衛生組織像是衛福部其實那個外交部外管很辛苦這樣聽起來你們都在配合"},{"start":554.918,"end":572.226,"text":"在協助啦 在配合 在協助我是建議這樣啦 就是說這個2028洛杉磯奧運喔我們在洛杉磯有很多代表啦台美人啦 台美青年啦 包括台灣會同鄉會 商會 台商會都很多主動啦"},{"start":573.186,"end":591.665,"text":"主動喔 因為你每次出國去嘛 去到這裡 洛杉磯 台灣會館 這裡好朋友來參上一下看外交部怎麼在洛杉磯奧運的時候 要有一個主要的角色讓我們這個選手去到洛杉磯比賽的時候 就類似像這次去巴黎嘛吳志忠 次長 以前在那裡"},{"start":595.209,"end":597.292,"text":"也去創一個什麼活動中心給我們的人最高檔的他們的廚師嘛 賭榜嘛像這種東西 洛杉磯的橋界啊他們很想要多高保支持一下 他們就開始辦了他們就開始去協助"},{"start":611.85,"end":614.672,"text":"做這些在地的協助工作,需要國家跟他們說,好,2028年,台美青年,二代、三代,所有的主管,包括有的去旅館的、去飯店的、去餐廳的、去蝦蝦的,有的做店長的"},{"start":632.586,"end":658.38,"text":"這一些人全部整合起來啊我想會讓我們2028的這種洛杉磯奧運的台灣代表隊啊去到那裡就比賽的成績也會更好我希望外交部在這件事情上啊主動啦主動不要等那個體育署還是臨港的運動部來接外交部說哇這不通外交部幫我們倒三天這樣這個好過就完全不一樣了好我們就主動集體啦因為聽台灣齁"},{"start":661.413,"end":685.431,"text":"這個大家都看得到啦今年的巴黎奧運還有我們這個包括棒球12強那運動是最能夠團結人民最能夠走向國際所以我們會把2028洛杉磯奧運當作外交部的事當作我們台灣人所有包括跨部會的事情一起來推動巴黎奧運其實我上任的時候就成立一個小組"},{"start":686.232,"end":702.902,"text":"包括宣傳面包括所有的接待還有以及這個涉及到的應變那這個是我們可以看很好的一個例子我們會在巴黎奧運的基礎上讓洛杉磯的這個奧運讓Team Taiwan更響亮好 部長加油好 一起加油"}]}},{"id":"158598","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158598","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e567f48878ab67a2d55efe2b3915ec926309f390aeb082454ac59471bd01b9acfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:13:53 - 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是民間的基金會"},{"start":149.838,"end":174.033,"text":"那我們現在就是跟外交學院來加強跨單位的有關於惡鬼外交的一個整合那原社會也是所以有關於我們過去各師在尤其地域師在各州這些支持的計畫或是我們派人去參與我們也是就台灣的所有的可能的人才"},{"start":174.933,"end":190.61,"text":"還有相關的這些專業團體 特別是民間的NGO我們現在也都會比較有組織的來推薦另外台灣本身也主辦了很多這方面的活動 邀請世界各國來不管是凱達格蘭論壇 玉山論壇 還有各方面"},{"start":196.716,"end":218.322,"text":"的一個大型的會議所以資源的整合包括資訊能夠好好的來讓台灣就是全民都來拼外交來做總和外交的一個後盾所以我們會再加強這方面有關於資料庫還有相關的活動資訊的分享"},{"start":220.303,"end":234.477,"text":"也會希望智庫之間也可以橫向的分工合作一起因為台灣的外交處境很特別我們就是要透過可以說是全民外交的方式走出去"},{"start":235.467,"end":262.817,"text":"是因為部長你之前也提到就是說我們人人都是外交官這樣子的一個觀念可是我們在斯洛伐克的論壇的成功我們也展現了台灣跟民主國家這個合作的這個潛力可是瑞士智庫在外交政策論壇面臨的挑戰跟這個挑戰呢其實也提醒了我們推動這個惡鬼外交必須要更加的這個靈活更加的這個有韌性才能跟"},{"start":263.317,"end":290.673,"text":"跟這個元首外交呢相輔相成那當然我們今天還要提到的就是元首外交那元首外交一直以來呢都是台灣外交上一個很重要的這個戰略的這個工具呢那就像這個賴清德總統近期推動的這個繁榮南島智慧永續的這個專案呢都充分的展現了元首外交在深化邦交上的這個實際的作用可是我們在檢視我們跟友邦的合作計畫的時候其實也發現了一些挑戰"},{"start":291.913,"end":298.796,"text":"當然這挑戰可以做未來雙邊合作計畫的新方向首先我們要看到像這次賴清德總統到南太平洋群島我們先看馬紹爾群島我們有透過台灣衛生中心計畫協助馬久羅醫院成立的人工智慧機遠距"},{"start":312.202,"end":314.523,"text":"醫療中心這是台灣跟馬紹爾群島在醫療合作上一個很重大的進展可是我們看到馬國目前還是面臨兩個很大的挑戰第一個就是他們國民的糖尿病盛行率高達20.7%"},{"start":327.771,"end":352.229,"text":"那這基層醫療造成了很大的這個壓力可是呢他們的這個護理人員是嚴重的不足那進一步限制了當地醫療資源的這個運作的這個效能比如說我們所看到數據是畢業生臨床投入的這個比例是低於25%的那像這樣子的話我們外交部是不是有針對當地的這個公衛的挑戰跟護理人員的這個缺口這部分有進一步提出深化合作的具體的這個戰略請問部長好"},{"start":355.792,"end":372.726,"text":"就是我們的跟友邦我們現在在推動龍邦計畫就有智慧醫療那常年也在訓練他們的醫護人員可是怎麼樣去取得證照能夠返國服務那特別是醫療這些中心 診所我們現在也推動這個醫院的資訊系統"},{"start":376.429,"end":395.467,"text":"這些都是建構他的大數據那未來透過遠距的醫療還包括AI的導入那這一次的馬紹爾群島的一個成果的呈現因為他們的飲食還有整個公共衛生的環境確實是糖尿病比較多另外就是洗腎所以總統也有指示"},{"start":396.087,"end":414.1,"text":"因為雙和醫院是一國一中心是在馬紹爾群島負責的醫院我們過去是我們國和會支持由衛福部來協調相關的醫院能夠進行一國一中心的這些比較屬於援外但是我們現在是希望把它導入到包括"},{"start":416.485,"end":422.468,"text":"除了他的這個醫院的這些設備儀器醫護人員的訓練還有醫院的整個經營包括這些相關的資訊系統以及未來導入就是說像智慧跟AI遠距所以雙核醫院這方面我們就會以加強它的能量那其他像在這個土瓦魯是中山這個"},{"start":445.802,"end":473.119,"text":"中山醫院就是那個中山大學的醫學院護社的醫院那在帛琉是有星光醫院跟秀傳醫院等那這個必須要做整合就是如果不能讓這些人才返國去服務的話我們要派台灣的人長期住那邊當然也有困難所以我們已經栽培這麼多人才怎麼把它做系統整合"},{"start":473.559,"end":495.578,"text":"另外一個跟委員報告像在帛琉的計畫我們現在在朝向的是台灣跟美國日本甚至澳洲一起來合作除了他們的醫院的這種新的這個園區以外那台灣在醫療的這個經營方面特別是服務的水準用這個方式來進行多國就是一起的這個農幫計畫"},{"start":497.58,"end":520.861,"text":"是 但我們希望說我們的合作計畫都可以延續那當然這些我們所面臨的挑戰可能要先克服那再來我們也了解說像馬紹爾群島其實像他這個醫護人員的薪資其實也是非常的低所以留不住一些人才就像台灣我們有帶為他們訓練一些醫護人才可是回去之後也不一定會留在這個領域所以這部分可能都是我們要面臨的這個挑戰"},{"start":522.082,"end":527.743,"text":"所以我們就希望說既然我們已經要協助他們成立這個人工智慧跟遠距醫療中心這是一個很大的計畫可是這計畫能不能延續能不能推行其實有些挑戰我們必須要先去克服那再來還有像帛琉我們這次也協助他們推動國會數位化轉型計畫可是我們也知道說像帛琉它的這個數位基礎設施是非常落後的那也缺乏這個穩定的網路跟這個設備的支持因為本席在去年的時候前陣子也去過一趟"},{"start":551.227,"end":572.184,"text":"所以它這些的基礎建設其實真的是不足那再來還有技術人員這方面技術人才方面也是嚴重的缺乏影響了整個我們是比較擔心會影響我們整個計畫的推進跟長期的這個效應像這個部分的話我們的有前期有沒有什麼一些計畫可以先協助呢在進入真正推動這個計畫之前我們有沒有一些前期的這個比如說它基礎建設的這部分我們先來協助像我們有沒有這些這方面的計畫呢"},{"start":578.969,"end":603.648,"text":"其實跟委員說明這一次總統的出訪我們定位在繁榮南島智慧永續智慧就是把數位科技導入我們的榮邦計畫有一項就是可信賴的網路跟數位治理不管是政府的機構或者是他們像這些醫療還有相關的產業其實都可以導入未來的數位的科技也強調數位的韌性在"},{"start":606.71,"end":632.198,"text":"因此硬體有了之後其實最重要是軟體以前是蓋了一些大樓但是軟體才要進入我們現在是其實整合先設計好所以硬體軟體還有未來人才那建構的大數據特別是AI的應用其實這些國家不大可是它大量的像比如說以馬薩爾群島來講它八成的人都有去看診的資料這個是不得了的大數據好好的幫它運用到智慧醫療它會變成一個典範"},{"start":634.139,"end":652.921,"text":"那以這個馬紹爾群島來講剛剛委員提到那醫護人員訓練了回去之後因為薪資低所以我們現在的籠幫計畫會去把它調高我們對薪資的補助我覺得它是大概四五萬人以這樣的一個區域我們整合性的來去幫它規劃"},{"start":654.182,"end":681.044,"text":"然後帶著他一起做所以這一次我們不是說他要什麼我們給不給而是我們整合各種的一個設計包括軟硬體這個把台灣的我們這幾年發展的這些數位解決智慧解決方案包括除了數位科技以外包括淨零轉型綠色的能源跟觀光所以會讓他們感受到我們是跟他站在一起"},{"start":681.664,"end":696.93,"text":"要把它發展他們的國家找到一條最適合的道路我是期望外交部能夠進一步強化向後續的推動的機制就像剛剛我們所提到我們結合各方面多邊的資源讓台灣在國際社會當中我們不單單是展現實力我們還是要展現我們的價值以上謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"158636","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158636","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5933516aa50fe257ef82bf49b3fbaf4a56a11e77586d9faf38c3f6bbd0a8feaf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:57:10 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我知道你也答不出來啦大民主"},{"start":99.434,"end":105.777,"text":"因為是民進黨做的就是大民主柯建民說要罷免韓國瑜請問秘書長是大民主還是小民主你一樣答不出來嗎這憲政常識啊 請問韓國瑜怎麼罷免我不太清楚耶 秘書長就教一下這憲政常識啊這個總召講 我覺得應該問沒有 我問你憲政常識 不要管柯建民嘛你看你也要言必稱總召"},{"start":129.74,"end":143.525,"text":"不分區怎麼罷免啊我所以叫他選國民黨黨主席罷免韓國瑜比較快啊我講什麼道理為什麼他開除韓國瑜的國民黨黨籍不分區資格消除他就是不是院長了所以柯建民連憲法的概念都沒有但是我跟你講一樣還是大民主因為是柯建民講的柯建民說要叫大法官把國民黨解散掉來請問我們偉大的行政院秘書長你支不支持"},{"start":158.42,"end":183.229,"text":"是不是解散國民黨不可能嘛 不可能嘛謝謝你打臉了柯建民這個我肯定你但是我跟你講你還是錯的因為柯建民說要解散國民黨仍然是最大的民主更大的民主因為是民進黨說的算我再問你大法官違背八成反對廢除死刑的民意做出實質廢死的判決是大民主還是小民主"},{"start":185.097,"end":206.383,"text":"你也答不出來不過大法官決議是合憲的合憲啦 可是我跟你講過了沒關係 我已經跟很多人賭過了加你一個 加你一個什麼叫實質廢止 我講實質廢止我的實質廢止定義很簡單賴清德5月19號 2028年5月19號卸任的那一天不會有任何死刑犯被執行 你敢跟我賭嗎會不會有死刑犯被執行 我告訴你一個都不會一個都不會有 這就是實質廢止"},{"start":213.683,"end":230.883,"text":"要不然來賭一下你覺得在金澤總統卸任前有沒有可能我敢啊所以我告訴你不要再為大法官辯解就是實質廢死來我再問一下這個你總要回答出來這是基本民主常識題尹錫悅戒嚴是大民主還是小民主"},{"start":234.673,"end":263.572,"text":"那後來已經被 這個決議已經被推翻了嘛所以你也反對嘛 對不對他不是大民主也不是小民主他有權力提 但是後來被國會推翻了那他是什麼民主啊 也是民主啊他叫不民主啦 那麼難回答啊但是即便尹錫悅是不民主民進黨立法院黨團的人發文力挺啊所以呢 一樣不民主的尹錫悅又變成大民主了那我最後再問你一個問題"},{"start":264.994,"end":273.929,"text":"立法院按照多數決 按照我們所選出來的民意三讀通過的法律 請問是大民主還是小民主啊"},{"start":275.848,"end":301.894,"text":"法院通過的法案當然行政院是要依法行政非常好但是我們還是有一些就事上的我沒有問你後面大家究竟是什麼我還跟你說請問是大民主還是小民主這個是依法行政是不是民主嗎是民主啊謝謝你啊我告訴你又錯了是小民主甚至是不民主因為民進黨只要不高興都是小民主我接下來就要問我們的秘書長啊來來來到底什麼叫大民主啊"},{"start":302.654,"end":319.852,"text":"今天行政院針對立法院按照民主多數決通過的三法你們要提出複議嘛對不對今天就憲訴法提複議啊你提複議是大民主還是小民主我們依法可以提出來的依法可以提出來 那是大還是小"},{"start":321.328,"end":346.333,"text":"這個沒有所謂的大小非常好你又打點賴清德什麼叫更大的民主當總統的不如我們行政院秘書長大什麼小啊民主的程序就是民主的程序行政院有權赴議是民主程序的一個環立法院三讀通過法律是立法院多數民主的一個環賴清德是皇帝啊行政院赴議是比立法院更大的民主嗎是嗎是不是"},{"start":350.372,"end":358.017,"text":"是不是嘛你比較大嘛是嗎沒有沒有這樣謝謝你嘛你剛剛都回答了沒有大小之分啦什麼更大的民主那我接下來想請教啊我直接跟你講啦你們當然也知道啦行政院復議喔因為立法院多數通過法律你進來復議我們也不會讓你復議成功啦那接下來幹嘛釋憲了是不是釋憲是不是"},{"start":378.911,"end":401.483,"text":"沒有啦 那個還是要經過立法院的程序啊沒關係啦沒關係 我就跟你講就像我剛剛跟你講5月2028年5月19號之前不會有一個一個死刑執行啦我直接跟你斷言嘛那剛剛你也可以證明我錯嘛可以證明我錯嘛時間嘛 十天就證明了嘛十天內就證明了 我就問你喔接下來如果被否決 請問現在要怎麼做 釋憲嗎"},{"start":403.337,"end":420.041,"text":"希望跟立法院來做溝通好啦好啦你努力你辛苦你努力溝通啦你用更大的民主來跟我們立法院小民主溝通啦立法院很小啦不用擔心直接踩過去碾壓他用更大的民主碾壓就好了有什麼好溝通的賴總統都不溝通的欸賴總統現在溝通過沒有啊"},{"start":423.171,"end":445.826,"text":"那種說突然今天元旦才突然醒悟說要找韓國瑜來溝通他也沒搞懂欸韓國瑜是立法院院長議事總理其實找他溝通也不是正確的事情要找在野黨主席溝通一個叫做朱立倫一個叫代理黨主席黃國昌啊建議一下啦要展現溝通也不是這樣展現方式啊那我接下來問你嘛要不要示現嘛答不出來啦齁"},{"start":448.428,"end":471.528,"text":"那個就是立法院附議的結果沒有我告訴你沒關係我這邊就直接說一件事情今天我們的民主走到這個地步立法院的立法委員不是我們個人的意志我們是人民選出來是人民賦予我們的民意我們通過的法律在你賴清德口中叫做什麼"},{"start":472.867,"end":484.065,"text":"叫做低贱的民族吗你是高贵的民族你是更高大上的民族吗是这样意思吗你不如我们狗明星秘书长啊他直接跟你讲哪有大小之分啊"},{"start":485.185,"end":509.039,"text":"都是按照憲法底下的民主程序我也不認為行政院附議就比較小哦沒有這回事哦都是憲政程序啊什麼叫更大的民主那我直接問啊請問更大的民主賴清德是在號召民進黨大罷免嗎是宣誓要大罷免嗎還是今天更大的民主賴清德是說要開始展開所謂的全民公投嗎"},{"start":510.558,"end":529.271,"text":"不管是哪一個程序,仍然是民主程序的一環,也沒有所謂大小之分那我最後要講一件事情,戴金德如果真的要講更大的民主,那如果意思是罷免,大罷免就是真的完全呼應了柯建民一路的主張,民進黨一路的主張就不要再裝了,不要再搞什麼偽公民團體這邊請客吃飯直接民進黨掛黨部的名字出來發動大罷免"},{"start":535.123,"end":552.172,"text":"至少你今天有氣魄單刀直入清清楚楚明明白白第二個我跟民主黨幫我轉達一下卓榮泰院長請卓榮泰院長轉達一下賴清德總統如果他講的是公投很好請他宣布民進黨不要再黨公投並大選了民進黨自己閹割了公投現在跟我講公投"},{"start":559.6,"end":579.787,"text":"先回去懺悔十天行政院復議期十天回去懺悔十天再來跟我講公投我告訴你不管罷免公投或者是今天立法院通過的法律乃至於行政院復議大法官釋憲都叫做民主的一環更大的民主不是皇帝不是愛心德 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請張祺凱委員"}]}},{"id":"158620","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158620","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5f02f07ec9a53d36d5efe2b3915ec9263671cb7f8abfc27ff50fc6cff46c367e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:52:29 - 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委員好那個今天我剛剛看部長接受訪問那有提到說訪美的這個訪團那基本上所有的成員都已經訂了嗎對 成員都訂了那這次是由團長是誰"},{"start":36.581,"end":49.147,"text":"韓國瑜院長這次率團我們整個國會的成員那是朝野都有 三黨都有所以我這邊先一個期許其實最近幾次訪美的一些行程朝野立委訪美的時候都有一些風波出來"},{"start":49.747,"end":79.074,"text":"那不論是說跟訪團之間的成員的這個不愉快或者是說跟駐美代表處之間的一些溝通上面的一些問題我在出訪之前那先跟外交部來先談一下就是希望說這樣子的狀況不要出現那我也希望說有這個機會讓朝野的立委讓我們一致對外所以這個部分包含行程上面對智庫的訪問對美國政要的訪問我希望我們三黨都能夠有共識那"},{"start":79.634,"end":99.619,"text":"原則上訪團內部有共識之後才會有一些新聞上面的釋出等等只要有這樣子的基礎互信在的話我相信這一次或許是一個朝野能夠在對內競爭對外一致的一個新的篇章所以目前安排的如何有些智庫政要都已經開始在做好一些處理了嗎"},{"start":100.687,"end":119.693,"text":"本次訪美的都在積極進行中那主要是當然就是出席這個美國總統就職典禮那這個部分因為經過立院黨團的協商那就是也有給我們外交部名單所以除了總統請這個韓院長來率團"},{"start":124.375,"end":147.373,"text":"那這個團的成員大家也協商出來民進黨、國民黨跟民眾黨是三一位嘛就是總共是這樣子加團長就是八位那我相信這個跨黨派的國會議員組成的一個代表團是很有代表性那但我要在這邊再說明這個是有行政部門再去協調來辦理"},{"start":150.215,"end":162.77,"text":"我們外交部會把這些行政作業做好我們希望不要再有變更因為本來是221啦後來立法院當然是請我們去努力看看能不能再加兩位"},{"start":164.892,"end":191.506,"text":"也真的是很辛苦因為這個在美國這種就職典禮其實能夠出席的這些所謂的外賓是很少他們主要是以國內為主那在這種情況之下我們希望不要再有變動因為這個來來晃晃的行政作業還有內外的溝通所以這一點也請大院能夠來理解只是說由韓院長來所謂率團但並不是由立法院來組團"},{"start":192.466,"end":219.755,"text":"好 謝謝部長 這個是由韓院長率團那另外一個部分我們還是強調我看總統最近有提出來說希望能夠跟訪團的成員來去交友會晤那我在這邊真的是很樂見其成我們也希望說這一次的出訪或許是一個國會重新啟動那化解朝野僵局的新篇章那是我誠摯希望的所以這次的訪團不僅是對外我想對內團結都是一個很好的開始"},{"start":221.215,"end":233.425,"text":"說到訪團我看最近有聽到媒體在說國安會之前也有訪團去訪美是不是有兩位國安會副秘書長去訪美那不知道成果如何不知道有沒有跟外交部有一些交流"},{"start":236.328,"end":258.74,"text":"當然到美國我們的代表處也都會有協助他們也都會聯繫所以我們有一定的了解有一定的了解有沒有什麼成果可以跟我們民眾分享我想多出席交流互動我想對這個尤其在政府交接期間都是有幫助的"},{"start":259.86,"end":272.946,"text":"有什麼具體的成果嗎見到了誰談了什麼大概不必給我具體的名字但是有什麼樣的進展他們就盡可能去不管是就是去參加活動或者是貿易安全還是講安全還是講什麼樣的領域"},{"start":276.047,"end":288.664,"text":"因為這是比較不是一個正式的組團的活動他是以個別的方式去的那我們也都有了解 協助所以我就不帶為來說明不帶為說明 那國安會有誰監督"},{"start":293.181,"end":315.9,"text":"因為沒有辦法監督嘛 因為他不用來國會嘛報載嘛 媒體是有一些報導嘛那就是如同媒體報導有一些人有出席一些活動OK 好不過這不是正式的活動啦不是正式官方的活動那個都是一些拜會啦或出席有一些宴會啦我們用平常心啦"},{"start":316.58,"end":333.737,"text":"多交流 因為在這個關鍵時刻多一個互動就多一層關係非常好 我希望不是形式上的而是實質上面有一些有意義的對話那這些對話我們也希望說有橫向溝通不是只是留在國安會的辦公室裡面"},{"start":334.378,"end":360.26,"text":"那這樣子的經驗傳承或者是說資訊傳遞各個部會之間才會有意義必須要強調因為我們之前在對國安局也好或者是各個不同的部會質詢的時候我一直在強調這一個整體性不要說每一個部會有各自的這一些資訊然後都覺得很機敏然後不分享那覺得說我好像知道某些事情我了解的比較多那還有是個上下之分不要因為"},{"start":361.641,"end":382.7,"text":"外交是總體的嘛 因為部長也常講總體外交我也希望國安會把這些資訊都能夠第一時間讓我們外交部的這些部會的人員知道那以後投入的資源方向就會更加來去明確謝謝部長 部長我剛剛看到這一次給我們的專題報告裡面有講一些出訪的紀錄跟出訪的成果"},{"start":383.2,"end":400.366,"text":"那我不禁有點懷疑 奇怪 我們這個訪問的對象除了邦交國之外似乎偏重於歐洲 甚至是偏重於中東歐那我想說我們新南向政策我們的南向國家似乎比較沒有受到外交部的出訪喜愛 有這樣的情況嗎"},{"start":405.663,"end":427.151,"text":"我在這邊看到出訪成果裡面要嘛就是歐洲議會的這個或者是立陶宛波蘭捷克斯洛伐克等等或者是這個烏克蘭的經營烏克蘭雙邊關係我都認同就如同說我之前都認同價值外交但是現在部長講的是總體外交總體外交裡面部長又最重視的是經貿外交"},{"start":427.771,"end":454.614,"text":"我想請教一下捷克、斯洛伐克、立陶宛、波蘭對於我國的總體的外交、外貿裡面佔的百分比是多少那為什麼我們把所有的資源全部都放在中東歐那我很意外因為此時此刻東南亞國家對中國的好感度是不斷的增加對美國的好感度現在是在下降的狀況之下甚至說有相關的這個民調我們在左下角有這一個"},{"start":455.595,"end":476.29,"text":"這個Source資料來源他說你的國家如何應對台海衝突竟然是會支持中國的雖然是非常小部分但是還有微調微深大部分的都不願意來去做實質上面的來去協調台海之間的衝突也就是說在這樣的狀況之下我不懂外交部現在的重心是放在哪裡歐洲價值外交"},{"start":477.339,"end":497.408,"text":"還是已經就全面轉向總體外交了我跟委員報告除了我們的邦交國之外當然像美國它當然就是很開放嘛那歐洲的國家就看誰去比如蔡前總統有去那因為這些比較民主的國家大概我們的交流比較容易由部次長去啦你說在東南亞"},{"start":498.889,"end":517.796,"text":"我們當然有一些經貿性質的會議我們就不論嘛因為我們在談的是元首外交跟惡鬼外交那你說日本當然交流很頻繁以外包括菲律賓、澳洲、紐西蘭可是東協委員也知道你看像今年這個世界台商會在越南這個召開的時候我們的立委"},{"start":519.297,"end":545.254,"text":"連江啟臣副院長也被限制不能夠入境然後現在這一次是在馬來西亞開亞洲台商會同樣的也有一些限制所以說如果沒有限制我們是一定我們以外交部來講是一定主動積極來去交流另外至於智庫的外交有一些是公開有些不公開我想包括印度在內確實是也都很頻繁"},{"start":545.874,"end":562.346,"text":"因為說實在大家都很希望透過台灣也去了解這個兩岸之間的關係謝謝部長這樣我們就比較了解可能是沒有辦法因為畢竟他們還是對中國的關係他們的牽制比較深所以可能我們的這些高層出訪比較困難但是我還是要強調包含在國內"},{"start":566.249,"end":585.512,"text":"我們會晤這個各國駐台的代表或者是大使不管是有沒有邦交國關係我們辦公室都有在做統計就是在新聞上面出現的頻率我們下次把圖表拿給你看那我們從中可以大概看到包含總統府在內 國安會在內似乎都比較偏重於歐洲"},{"start":586.943,"end":613.533,"text":"我當然同意啦價值外交很重要但是就如同我對部長的期許現在已經是總和外交了包含經貿都很重要那我們台灣我們在東南亞國家之間的交流我們我國的台橋主要分布的區域還是以美跟東南亞為主美國為主那接下來就是東南亞各國所以我們不要把這個重心跟資源那全部都往一個區域來去放"},{"start":613.993,"end":632.648,"text":"我必須強調歐洲它的重要性是有的但是對於我國的經貿安全還有對台橋的影響力來講的話東南亞加上印度它是非常具有重要性的特別是印度我老實說在過去的一年多來我基本上主要的大國"},{"start":633.689,"end":655.049,"text":"有核子強權那這個可以牽制中國的主要力量我沒有發覺到有很大的這個助力在那邊甚至包含南韓也是我們韓國跟我國之間的關係過去還是有很長時間的邦交國那文化上面科技上面的交友都有我是真的希望說把視角放回亞洲謝謝大家好 謝謝我們會加強"}]}},{"id":"158619","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158619","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e517743ec3b4899a11f82bf49b3fbaf4a5671cb7f8abfc27ffd197f29790cd35605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:55:28 - 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謝謝主席 我們請秘書長好 請公秘書長花文好好 秘書長早喔其實剛剛大家都在談論才化法這也是我今天想要關心的重點那可是呢 先講一下說今天其實行政院會有在討論說要把限訴法來提出復議也正在討論中 對嗎是的那這個結果大概什麼時候會出來"},{"start":29.39,"end":49.136,"text":"因為院會結束通常11點現在應該可能出來好 那當然我要在這邊表達我的支持啦希望等一下院會做成的決議是會堅決的提出復議因為這個不只是剛剛其實秘書長有講到說因為行政院自己是當事人"},{"start":49.696,"end":68.511,"text":"其實不只行政院啦這個對很多人民來說都是當事人因為大家知道說其實會提出釋憲申請的其實有99%的都是受到侵害的人民所以現在這個限訴法造成憲法法庭癱瘓下去影響最大的是多數需要救濟的人民"},{"start":69.071,"end":89.085,"text":"所以不只是行政院我相信很多人民也都希望行政院可以來提出復議然後讓立法院重新的思考說這個憲法法庭真的要癱瘓下去嗎為了要教訓執政黨造成最後教訓到所有的人民嗎所以拜託我也希望等一下你們會堅決的來替人民來發聲然後來提出復議那然後重新來審視憲訴法是不是真的要這樣提喔"},{"start":97.39,"end":116.136,"text":"那再來還是要講一下這個才化法因為這個才化法通過之後其實我看各個縣市大家都跳腳包括剛剛有許多國民黨的委員也跑出來急著說為什麼行政院這樣子說今年的預算有可能要重編其實他們重點都錯了啦重點不是"},{"start":116.536,"end":130.849,"text":"今年有沒有重編而是未來每一年度的預算是不是都會因為財化法的修正造成垂直分配跟水平分配的差別而進行大幅的預算的調整這個是事實對吧是"},{"start":131.79,"end":154.585,"text":"所以我覺得在這邊也拜託秘書長你們在對外溝通向社會多做說明的時候一定要講清楚說明白因為這個我必須要替你們抱屈一下因為過去在二讀的時候在委員會之前都沒有好好討論的空間以至於所有的行政部門包括所有的部會包括行政院都沒有機會來到立法院好好表達說這個預算分配重新調整之後"},{"start":162.31,"end":190.14,"text":"那這個我也是希望接下來行政院對外要多做溝通的部分因為過去確實因為在陳玉珍在裁委會的召委的主導之下讓你們沒有機會去裁委會好好的說明甚至連我們高雄市的陳其邁市長特別北上來到裁委會也沒有機會好好的說明這個是真的非常可惜的部分那現在強硬三讀通過之後到底受到什麼影響人民是有權利知道的"},{"start":190.76,"end":215.061,"text":"所以現在各個部會在地方上積極的去表達我覺得這是很正確的事情都已經可能受到的影響難道不需要讓人民知道嗎所以我在這邊還是要強烈的譴責國民黨怎麼會跟中央搶劫之後又不准中央來在地方上好好的跟大家說明不准被搶劫的人來張揚來好好的說明自己會受到什麼侵害呢"},{"start":216.042,"end":232.996,"text":"那我還是要請教一下因為現在看起來國民黨又再一次的毀憲亂政刻意的嚴當不讓才化法跟選罷法送出立法院還要延緩請總統延緩公佈那當然不知道他們什麼時候會來請總統公佈那到時候我們行政院態度到底是什麼有沒有機會來提出復議呢"},{"start":242.714,"end":267.19,"text":"委員因為現在東文就還沒有送到行政院所以行政院也沒有辦法去處理這件事情所以我們只能去評估以現在的方案裡面可能會對我們的影響就像剛才委員提到的可能未來中長期每一年可能我們的預算結構到底要做怎麼樣的調整萬一如果按照原來的版本這樣子實施的話"},{"start":268.071,"end":276.828,"text":"我們只能預作一些準備委員剛才特別聽到說也要把這個準備可能跟地方也好或是民眾來做一些溝通"},{"start":278.902,"end":302.978,"text":"民主黨我希望你們再積極一點啦什麼叫做萬一可能叫現在版本通過現在國民黨主導的才化法就已經三讀通過了這個我們高雄的鄉親都非常的覺得很受傷也看不下去喔他們每天都在問我說哇這個才化法公佈之後三讀過後對高雄來說竟然是全國增幅最低的沒有把人口"},{"start":304.179,"end":314.074,"text":"裡面的人口結構放進去然後對高雄來說我們土地面積這麼大這樣的指標也沒有被放進去對高雄來說非常非常非常不公平啊"},{"start":315.137,"end":336.692,"text":"然後到現在 那政院你要告訴我啊 這樣子的結果下去之後是不是對於我們高雄未來正在進行的重大建設都會受到影響你們要告訴大家啊這也是我們高雄人民 高雄市民現在都最擔心的一件事情包括說我們現在正在興建的捷運黃線剛剛博弈委員提到的捷運紫線包括接下來的高鐵南延"},{"start":337.672,"end":363.013,"text":"這些都是攸關全國然後行經高雄的重大的軌道建設這個一定都要有中央的預算來支持啊這難道不是在跟高雄市民說高雄市民你們是次等公民嗎照這樣的財化法的版本下去就是在跟高雄的人民作對啊所以這個我是希望行政院這邊一定要馬上的試算你們的評估都太慢了"},{"start":364.284,"end":382.163,"text":"造成什麼影響難道我們人民沒有權利知道嗎我們有初步的做一些評估啦那我剛才特別提到就是說我們會針對如果這個文送到行政院我們會針對裡面真的產生自然難行之處提出一些救濟"},{"start":383.632,"end":403.844,"text":"那這個究竟我們會講得非常清楚這個事情為什麼自在難行包括您剛才提到的可能會讓比較後面軌道建設比較後面先做的已經做完了但是後面要做的包括高雄台中等等的一些情況他可能會受到一些甚至於新竹他的新軌都會受到一些影響那這個"},{"start":405.365,"end":424.341,"text":"我們不希望這樣子所以我們會提出一些救濟上的一些方法怎麼樣來做朝野怎麼樣協商更好的一個可行的一些方案出來我們還是朝著這個方向來來進行好這個要拜託秘書長因為我真的很不希望我在這邊很不希望再是"},{"start":425.502,"end":438.753,"text":"就是我也不想用譴責的啦可是就是這個才化法通過之後真的對我們南部的鄉親來說真的真的影響太大了我在這邊必須要替我們高雄的鄉親再次的請命"},{"start":439.878,"end":460.292,"text":"拜託如果還有轉圜的餘地也在這邊拜託所有的我們立法院的同事大家好好重新思考是不是有任何救濟的可能也希望政院窮盡一切的救濟手段讓這樣子的財化法真的不要照這麼惡劣的方式來上路好嗎好的好謝謝秘書長"},{"start":468.302,"end":471.06,"text":"好,那我們現在休息六分鐘"}]}},{"id":"158623","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158623","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5283bc2f9461524fd5efe2b3915ec9263671cb7f8abfc27ff604f80897a2691b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:03:48 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林部長 要請部長部長好 新年快樂那我想呢 我們前一陣子啊 我們在外交國防委員會都在忙著審查預算那也很開心 就說大部分的預算呢 我們都已經審訊完畢了那也是有一個 不管是在野黨或是執政黨跟政府單位很好的一個溝通過程"},{"start":25.129,"end":34.816,"text":"但是尤其在審查國防部的預算的時候大多數的委員們不分黨派都有談到一件事就是我們的軍購美國還沒有發貨的狀況"},{"start":40.72,"end":63.207,"text":"那當時美國選舉大選出爐的時候您在11月7號的委員會備詢那我當時問了這個川普要求我們要均壽達GDP5到10%未來要如何因應你也提你也回復說呢我國採購的200億美軍軍購案的貨都還沒有給這方面美國也是理虧的那我國的需求是增加當中那未來要怎麼樣溝通"},{"start":64.247,"end":76.421,"text":"可是我們看到蔡英文前總統在歐洲國外的論壇裡面談到說烏克蘭比台灣更需要美國的武器烏克蘭戰勝就可以嚇阻中國先不論後半句話的對錯但是當烏克蘭比台灣"},{"start":79.304,"end":107.889,"text":"更需要美國的武器由國家的前元首向國外世界闡述這樣的方向的時候我們都知道台灣現在接貨武器的速度比較慢某種程度來說是因為美國在產線上面跟烏克蘭還有其他的一些國家出現了排擠那當我們的前元首公開的說烏克蘭比台灣還要需要的時候會不會影響到我們國家的一些武器那採購以後交付的速度以及外交部在這方面要如何跟美方溝通來因應"},{"start":108.888,"end":125.836,"text":"老公委員報告我們當然從台灣角度講台灣就是最重要而且很急迫那其實像在川普總統他現在任命的國安顧問這個麥克沃茲他就是先前那個Tiger就是那個老虎小組就是在加速"},{"start":126.676,"end":138.839,"text":"美台這些軍購之後的交付那我相信這個速度未來會加快因為我們也在努力做有案外包或是禁案外包因為有些項目如果台灣可以生產當然我們都鼓勵由台灣來生產我們都鼓勵來"},{"start":144.361,"end":159.67,"text":"台灣生產可是很多重要的武器確實沒有美方這裡的許可或是不是有美方因為我們已經前因投下去了嘛那現在討論的是武器延宕交付的問題那武器延宕的交付我再講一次很多時候是因為美方他們也公開承認了"},{"start":160.731,"end":177.281,"text":"就是說因為烏克蘭的產線問題他美國他也沒有那麼大的能量可以那麼快速的製作這麼多的武器然後來交付所以當蔡英文前總統講說烏克蘭比台灣還要需要的時候是不是就會造成未來更多的嚴當的問題那外交部這裡要如何跟美國來進行溝通"},{"start":178.502,"end":183.907,"text":"我們跟美國溝通就是我們非常需要而且就是希望能夠盡快的來交付這些已經採購的武器至於說未來的這個採購的項目我們也已經積極有在這個推動中"},{"start":195.246,"end":223.742,"text":"所以要特別提醒我覺得烏克蘭誰比誰更需要這件事情我們應該要站在台灣的角度來講對我來說沒有任何一個國家我能夠在國會殿堂上面講說別人比我們更需要既然我們採購了我們一定是最需要而且我們一定是希望對方能夠按時交付這是守在一個為人民去爭取守護納稅前的立法委員的想法我相信外交部長您也是從中華民國的角度看"},{"start":224.142,"end":250.289,"text":"要認為一定要認為台灣是最優先其他的國家當然我們都祝福他們一切安好但是既然我們購買了武器我們不希望延宕我們一定希望對方把台灣排在最優先的角度不想認同嗎同意那再來另外一個問題有關於台灣的獎助學金這個台灣Fellowship您知道這個獎助學金有多少年了是由誰來評估怎麼樣來評估的嗎"},{"start":252.625,"end":278.152,"text":"台灣這個fellowship你是台美那一歸台灣的獎助學金我們已經三十年都有了三十年了嘛對不對然後我們是由這個大使館跟代表處來受理申請確認資料評估申請人的學術影響力那有內部人士跟外部人士可是我要想要特別問一下部長您認不認識有一位叫做Carrie Garenchick的"},{"start":279.172,"end":293.098,"text":"學者他也有能拿到我們國家的這個台灣獎助學金的計畫而且呢已經連續拿了三次他的重要著作是什麼為什麼他能夠得到台灣的這個連三年的這個獎助"},{"start":294.973,"end":322.732,"text":"有人知道嗎?可以代替部長回答都沒有關係因為這個細節的問題我相信事務官有時候會更清楚叫做Kerry Jeffrieschick我給大家看一下他在2020年出版了一本書我們先翻譯這樣子我直接講他的英文叫做Political Warfare Strategies for Combating China's Plans to Win Without Fighting這個是由美國的海軍陸戰隊大學出版的"},{"start":323.112,"end":341.242,"text":"但是在第126頁裡面他傳遞了錯誤的內容我們姑且先不論大家的政黨傾向跟政治傾向但是呢他裡面提到說呢馬英九前總統因為洩漏機密資料違反中華民國通訊保護法被判有罪進一步玷污了他的遺產"},{"start":342.162,"end":361.005,"text":"这本书在2020年出版但是呢我国在2019年高院一审就宣判了马总统这个无罪定验并且不得再上诉的事实所以代表他的这本书里面有非常严重的瑕疵这跟政党立场无关这跟我国的司法体制有关"},{"start":361.545,"end":380.974,"text":"所以2019年就已經確定無罪不得再上訴定驗的內容卻出現在這個學者2020年的書裡面造謠那等於說呢美國海軍陸戰隊的大學生都看到了這個假訊息很多人會以為我們中華民國的前元首是被判決有罪的"},{"start":381.294,"end":398.019,"text":"好 等於說我們的前元首因為他的著作而被污蔑那結果呢 他在2018 2020和2025年分別拿了我們三次的獎助學金那如果他不是一個被認為很重要的學者怎麼會這樣子呢我想要問一下亞太司司長 北美司司長你們認識這個人嗎來八年內獲獎三次你們認識他嗎"},{"start":409.768,"end":411.156,"text":"我這邊沒有接觸過來 下一位"},{"start":414.301,"end":440.684,"text":"因為要不是亞太司就北美司我們這邊也沒有接觸也沒有接觸所以沒有人認識這個人但他八年內拿獎三次你們知道他機票加獎金他大概會領到台幣公帑市兩百多萬元然後他連我們最基本國內的法律他寫的都是錯的在國外去造謠我國中華民國的前元首我再說一次這跟政治傾向沒有關係如果他們污蔑了我們的前總統蔡英文我也會感到非常的不悅"},{"start":441.425,"end":466.887,"text":"再來呢這個獎助學金我請問一下他支領到的每一個月的補助金有多少錢詳細每個案子不一定一樣這一個這一個Carrie的這一個知道再告訴我啦每個月我講答案好了好不好一個月是六萬元六萬元一年就多少錢了三年就多少錢了再加上機票的來回補貼就多少錢了"},{"start":467.688,"end":470.571,"text":"所以我想要問一下就是說外交部這邊有沒有整理過從我們開始成立獎助金以來我們有沒有一個對單人個人補助的上限或者是次數的上限或是什麼樣一個審查標準或者是讓我們發現或有人檢舉說他的著作或他的學術產生問題的時候我們有沒有一個停下來的機制"},{"start":491.197,"end":513.087,"text":"那個委員一定有審查機制但是具體的個案尤其涉及出版如果有錯誤啦那當然我們事後知道了應該因為我們有講注嘛應該也要就是應該請其更新啦因為這個雖然我知道在學術界誰給我 grant 跟我自己出版不是兩件事情那我們還是遵守出版我們給他講決心有一個審查機制所以不是外交部誰說的"},{"start":519.069,"end":531.778,"text":"審查過給他補助他去做了研究後來出版出版這個是獨立的事情可是出版裡面如果有錯誤我們有補助而且因為他碰到的是我們外交的一個很大的問題就是說是中華民國的元首"},{"start":536.081,"end":562.613,"text":"出版但是2019有新的判決他沒有去更新嘛因為他建立在2018的資料上所以這個在時間上他有個時間差沒有但他就沒有去double check他寫的東西是否是正確的他沒有去更新最新的資料那再來就是說這是一個疏失啦這是一個很大的錯誤因為它涉及到中華民國元首的我們整個國家的顏面的問題而且它是一個假訊息一個假的資訊"},{"start":563.533,"end":591.546,"text":"那根據我們獎助金官網的指引說明就說呢鼓勵學者在台灣的大專中心設計這個研究中心但是有學者向我反映說實務操作上面外交部的獎助金申請制度的設計申請人受到錄取通知之後才要開始找台灣的接待單位所以有時候會因為找不到而求助於承辦的國土漢學中心那這個時候國土漢學中心會怎麼樣做建議就是學問了"},{"start":592.006,"end":605.799,"text":"所以我的意思是說我們在整個台灣獎助學金包含是我們的申請的限制次數然後呢金額然後不是說比如說這個人他可能每年都是他那是不是我們其他很優秀的學者他就申請不到了"},{"start":607.461,"end":629.977,"text":"有沒有相關的限制以及當它的學術架構或者是內容出現問題的時候我們能夠怎麼樣去跟對方來溝通還有我們要來做研究中心的時候有沒有多方面的管道能夠推薦而不是收到錄取之後才發現說我找不到地方可以在台灣去做研究這方面是不是可以請外交部事後再補題書面報告詳細的資料給我那你們也做一個整體的研究我們希望讓台灣的獎助金能夠越來越好"},{"start":636.181,"end":638.424,"text":"運用在有效的地方也不要造成國際社會對中華民國的錯誤認知"},{"start":641.772,"end":669.657,"text":"我會來請同仁檢視一下先前獎學金的這個審查那得到的人他的一個他的組成包括有人多次那另外就是有關於他得到之後要來做研究那他要有一個機構這個關係我們看怎麼樣能夠同時啊或者怎麼樣能夠來協助能夠找到他能夠能夠這是所謂affiliate跟他能夠合作的單位好 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":671.963,"end":672.133,"text":"谢谢。"}]}},{"id":"158611","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158611","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5384165f935fd51455efe2b3915ec92638d75bdfb612c74e0b0f568547c5b28c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:11:29 - 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謝謝林昭偉 麻煩部長請林部長來 部長我今天準備的正題以前正題之前剛好我接到一個民眾剛從剛過我們的海關進到台灣來他有一個問題那你不用現在有答案我是說了解一下他說回台灣的時候以前都會聽到歡迎歸國"},{"start":28.274,"end":46.672,"text":"那個好像被改掉了然後呢自動通關的語音呢變得好像中國腔調一樣是不是我們買的機子 灌的東西裡面的sourcing出了問題我不確定因為這是民眾剛才我在上台前接到的申請我讓外交部的同仁了解一下查看看啦因為以前回到台灣聽到歡迎歸國"},{"start":48.534,"end":69.602,"text":"還蠻好的然後我覺得腔調因為來到台灣是我們國家的門面我們來跟淘機還有移民署還有海關我們現在很多漁民有一段時間是out sourcing到印度那個腔就會像印度腔我現在不曉得是不是有out sourcing或者它裡面灌的東西出問題麻煩你了解一下那我回來問第一個題目在"},{"start":71.022,"end":87.78,"text":"我們之前跟美方的各級的政要包含州長包含跟甚至於是美國參眾議會的重量級的參眾議員兩黨都有都有提到這個避免雙重科稅的立法當時得到的答案"},{"start":88.661,"end":101.217,"text":"都在國會重量級的意見領袖都說這個他們認為該做在台灣跟美國的投資者避免雙重瞌睡對投資有益所以這個是對台灣對美國都有好處的"},{"start":104.221,"end":124.327,"text":"那當時說因為正在他們在總統大選所以搞不好選舉結束之後這一屆期因為他們快到期了屆期前能不能完成所以我第一個先請教部長避免雙重科稅這件事情對台灣來講有什麼效益很重要因為在遊說這個嘛總是要有效益嗎請說"},{"start":126.121,"end":150.416,"text":"因為我想投資跟貿易是連動的以台積電去投資周邊的供應鏈要去這麼多的投資如果有雙重瞌睡我想這個一定會影響到美國去投資所以這對美國有不利對台灣來講我們要雙重瞌睡當然也是很不利所以沒有反對的意見現在是說本來要走的路徑因為從眾議院到參議院"},{"start":153.117,"end":182.217,"text":"但是因為選舉的關係或者現在因為會期嘛這個法案要另外提這一屆結束的話因為他們眾議院就兩年一次對就要全部重來耶對所以有沒有可能在因為這個對我們在墨西哥北部我上次看到統計是大概350家製造業者其實是有影響的對於投資美國甚至於我們我們在海外佈局經商的台商也是有影響的因為那個稅率很高"},{"start":183.317,"end":202.342,"text":"你估計目前的進度有沒有可能在這個會期把它完成現在就是說這個新的會期啦如果開始他們是不是用所謂的快速的那個管道最後一個MegaPage他們如果同意的話其實是可以啟動就是說算是比較是綠色通"},{"start":203.022,"end":230.573,"text":"有沒有這樣的我們現在接觸的參眾院的兩院是有國會議員有這個提議啦就我們9月到11月去了解起來有部分的共和黨的參議員有一點意見可是他本身州的州長來到台灣我們溝通之後他回去說那是他的body body回去溝通一下所以目前看起來反對意見不多而且共識很高對美國甚至於對川普來講增加美國就業機會也是有幫助對台灣"},{"start":231.873,"end":245.71,"text":"證明我們跟美國之間的重要夥伴關係其實它也有外交政治上的利益所以是不是部長或編寫師到底這一個避免雙重瞌睡目前它真正的狀況進度有沒有可能在這一屆的美國國會完成立法"},{"start":251.38,"end":262.281,"text":"很有機會啊因為大家都知道他的重要性跟急迫性嘛那現在就是因為新的政府開始包括國會開議能不能用比較最簡"},{"start":264.192,"end":285.925,"text":"變的程序去讓參眾兩院能夠快速來審查還有放在快速立法律社通關的有這個提議當然還要看所以我們覺得看起來沒有反對的意見就是怎麼樣去做立法程序我們現在lobby的工作做得怎麼樣"},{"start":287.13,"end":310.405,"text":"我看到的電報或者是我本身的接觸沒有反對的意見那也都應該是越快越好所以國長跟北美司長有信心來 北美司長這是別國在決定進度我們不能隨便有信心就是我們的理解是目前這個案子還是有兩黨跨黨派的一個支持的共識所以在這個新一屆的國會開議之後我們一定是你這樣又跑到下一屆重新重來了"},{"start":310.905,"end":335.563,"text":"因為這一屆的那個已經結束了所以一定是下一屆1月份開始開一支我們很怕有時候到下一屆又開始丟一些新的就丟了一些條文什麼的然後又開始討論然後兩年又到了目前都有積極的跟兩黨的議員在溝通那目前看起來這個支持也都還是在這邊的這個案子過的話其實對我們外交部長來講你的工具箱裡面多了一個工具"},{"start":336.644,"end":365.467,"text":"而且對川普的政策上來講兩邊其實是互利的那另外我們跟美方簽的BTA就是台美這個21世紀貿易倡議這個BTA就外交部的評估因為川普很不喜歡FTA他連WHO都想退出了這一個從TIFA到美台21世紀的貿易倡議所謂的BTA會不會有變數"},{"start":367.362,"end":381.634,"text":"因為它這個是美台21世紀貿易倡議它有12項它是分主要三個階段那個階段已經通過First Agreement那第二階段事實上三家一個項目也談得差不多其中只有一個項目當時還有一點就是還要再協商"},{"start":387.68,"end":400.814,"text":"至於說新的總統上任他對這個事情的看法他的USTR還有相關人事的佈局我們大概也有一定的判斷都是友善不過他的agenda是不是放在前面因為這裡面還沒有涉及到市場准錄直接的關稅的問題坦白講這個PTA還沒有碰到所謂的關稅"},{"start":409.503,"end":431.258,"text":"所以這個就是一個去健全化一個比較全面的經濟的一個合作的架構我這樣詮釋對不對這一個BTA台美之間的BTA目前已經有了大概沒有什麼變化但是想要再往前還要往前進一步還有待觀察對這樣詮釋對啦但是我意思是說我們在拜登政府任內已經談到第二階段"},{"start":432.639,"end":457.616,"text":"除了一項還需要最後的協商其他已經都有共識那因為行政部門雖然是總統是新的這個他的政策的Priority或Agenda我們還要再了解以外但基本上大家對於台美之間這個把21世紀貿易倡議來推動是有共識只是說這個會拖多久川普政府上任之後三個大項一個是國土安全部對邊境的管理"},{"start":458.436,"end":474.123,"text":"一個是對外外交的政策要強化夥伴自我保衛的能力的責任第三個就是經貿經貿是他在選舉當中非常非常重要的政策而這個經貿一個不小心"},{"start":475.305,"end":489.561,"text":"有可能變保護主義一個不小心可能會讓全球這個recession會提早來所以這個我會提醒因為你現在講的是統合外交經貿跟外交其實這要一起看所以我問下一個有關呂宋經濟狼帶"},{"start":491.683,"end":517.537,"text":"呂宋經濟狼帶我聽部長提了幾次經濟部也提了幾次可是裡面有兩個我坦白講重中之重一個是美國政府一個是日本政府美日政府跟小馬可市政府在呂宋島不管是四個軍事基地不管是港口的建設不管是造船業的進駐或者台灣相關的不管是石化業"},{"start":519.701,"end":524.035,"text":"發電的能源業或者是比較低階的半導體業這整塊餅"},{"start":527.194,"end":554.439,"text":"呂宋經濟狼帶其實這兩個captain很重要可是我們現在面臨的是石破內閣換新的內閣換新的內閣了而且它是一個minority算是少數內閣然後呢川普政府取代拜登政權也更迭了所以我必須請教部長有關呂宋經濟狼帶就你們目前的評估是為民還是繼續"},{"start":556.144,"end":580.776,"text":"還是有可能這個要Drop it 要丟掉了它是這樣子啦 是在G7的架構下 因為要對抗一帶一路嘛那這個由美日 針對菲律賓有這個所謂旅送經濟狼帶的一個計畫那包括投資 還有一些建設那我們不是G7 但是我們認為說可以以這個為基礎台灣可以扮演一些角色"},{"start":582.236,"end":587.439,"text":"這個是平行可是至於台灣人們參加呂宋經濟總監具體的計畫這要case by case來看也要對我們有利嘛我們能夠貢獻的那應該說那個架構是在的那項目也已經他們已經在形成其實從今年初到現在"},{"start":599.545,"end":621.872,"text":"呂宋島的軍事基地跟台海安全跟巴士海峽控管息息相關呂宋經濟狼帶所要發展的產業跟台灣息息相關所以跟台灣坦白講這個比IPEF重要比IPEF重要他比較具體那這麼具體的東西的狀況下如果因為我們重要的民主盟友內部的發生變化這個案子"},{"start":623.573,"end":639.979,"text":"走不下去的話 我覺得我們外交部跟經貿部門有責任要去了解這是兩個層次 我跟委員講一個是當然美日非的層次嘛 旅眾經濟狼帶但是台非也可以形成經濟狼帶尤其是我們的大南方計畫現在又有大南方這個大細股"},{"start":640.859,"end":642.14,"text":"我們跟菲律賓之間的合作有風險"},{"start":656.633,"end":675.151,"text":"他的總統是一任的換了總統之後政策不延續投資跟相關的保障會有什麼樣的情形所以透過多邊的特別是美日這樣的G7強國建構的架構簽的合約對我們台商對我們台灣政府來講"},{"start":676.328,"end":702.173,"text":"保障的程度會比較高啦那台非要發展當然有另外一條路可以走所以因為我時間到了我特別提醒不過我也跟委員補充說明我們台美之間也有EPPD台美經濟這個這個夥伴的對話那也就是針對第三國那我想台美之間也都認為跟菲律賓合作是我們的重點對因為這幾個國家第一島鏈國家現在政治上都有一些新局面美國"},{"start":704.417,"end":727.246,"text":"也有一些新局面其實歐盟也有一些政權更迭的情形所以當我們台灣在發展對外經貿外交的時候這些更迭的情形要很審慎仔細的去觀察而且要建立多層次的而不是只依靠一個方向否則一旦沒有就沒有了那我們可能努力了三五年的東西瞬間化為泡影這個提醒外交部那我們希望後續"},{"start":728.146,"end":735.661,"text":"也許這個我們可以做個專案報告了好不好好 謝謝現在行政院經濟外交工作小組也有針對這部分在進行"}]}},{"id":"158610","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158610","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5e8e36b0e4d4d561ef82bf49b3fbaf4a58d75bdfb612c74e071a3c8e0ddb401085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:14:34 - 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健保署要不要處理這個再這樣他要搞個洗腎 要搞個醫美 要搞個什麼的話一年做個一億兩億三億都超過 比地區醫院還大我現在想要來 我今天有提案喔是不是在美醫 會重症的醫師外科的還是什麼的他的醫師扣除喔"},{"start":141.252,"end":151.078,"text":"所得稅扣除,我們來調查一下查友會那邊我已經找要提案了那你的看法是怎麼樣好,第一個其實"},{"start":152.898,"end":179.324,"text":"我在八九年前就在財政委員會當立法委員的時候就提出幫醫院的一個累積一些相關的開銷,尤其是醫師醫事人員能夠扣稅啦但是在財政委員會是沒有通過啦我想後來大家也一直在關心這件事情那集中症的醫院第一個他的"},{"start":180.703,"end":203.248,"text":"真的各個醫院為了要撐這個集中這個責任醫院真的花了很多的成本也必須要怎麼樣去留住他更多的力度這才能夠維繫我們在醫療體系很重要的一環所以我完全贊成蘇昭偉的一個建議我們看怎麼樣來溝通這可能在財委會那邊要"},{"start":208.001,"end":229.756,"text":"我知道就是因為這個我以前都提過案所以我知道這個要做很多的溝通診所你叫他要死保死消診所因為78%這個必要費用那剩下22%要繳稅要扣掉他的薪資怪不得要繳三萬五萬、三萬"},{"start":233.237,"end":254.849,"text":"我一天去中部某大型醫學中心我去那裡看,我還在做專業會我去急診室看,那急診室的醫生,是給我叫說知道我是入胃又鹹,在室內他說,哇,副教授,學理科的副教授現在坐在這裡看急診,那時候要10點,晚上兩個年輕夫婦帶孩子來,看得不舒服,還在叫"},{"start":261.201,"end":288.42,"text":"他說我做到補考的時候就是要用腳我阿姓現在都早上在開業都他的菜市場靠得到他的休業套餐秋節套餐現在九點多他們在喝紅酒看了在喝紅酒他說這什麼體統所以我早上我趕快把他們的小學科的急診的調點調很多 調五十幾%但是還是不夠所以健保署對於這個不能"},{"start":290.467,"end":318.53,"text":"市長 欸 署長 副署長你要怎麼處理啊 要怎樣 要怎樣 這一定要處理 不然醫生遭料了這是這樣啦 其實我們現在分區的管理 現在醫事公會全聯會也提一個案那11基層總額 他就提到到某一個 他收錄到某一個勘詐的心 就要責負啦"},{"start":321.875,"end":345.503,"text":"這個目前當然應該還是在討論當中啦,討論當中那至於說我們過去就在實施中,你不要疑心一直去大便開的精塑一直走著走著去,現在過去就有慣例,如果數額比較高,譬如說超過十萬塊就會特別的一個那個"},{"start":346.829,"end":375.019,"text":"就會把他責負啦也是一直在想辦法但是我還是要跟趙薇報告一下齁其實不是所有的診所都是明星診所啦齁你如果去走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走走"},{"start":376.414,"end":395.888,"text":"他比較不會...講過不要說講過,怕犯罪的一個互動,很多醫生就覺得要轉眼而已沒有啦,就是所以這個弱勢的診所,我們也要照顧這個我贊成那比較...所以這個要整體的考驗,不是像我舉個例子,台北市"},{"start":397.631,"end":412.765,"text":"所以你看一天如果沒有看到30個意思是沒薪水的但是有超過30個的不到50%"},{"start":414.744,"end":426.862,"text":"大型然後像前幾天有一個開幕的吹牛吹說他一年要搞幾億幾億這個要加強管理好不好當然當然那另外一個我要一個提案就是麻醉的事情"},{"start":428.137,"end":457.537,"text":"那個七百多家醫美診所只有四十家接受評鑑然後其他的麻醉就出問題啦那麻醉醫學會我也不看他們就三百萬麻醉醫學會好像說他們很重要他們沒人他們就學生才這麼少每年的專科醫師限定名額大家保障既得利益者眼科也是一樣麻醉科也是一樣然後在外面沒人所以我今天提案有一個"},{"start":459.578,"end":480.087,"text":"心臟外科的醫師,移植外科的醫師,或者重症的醫師等等你給他訓練麻醉,讓他接受一個程度讓他去執行也是相關的麻醉,那你要很高檔的就不要做那這樣的話也可以紓解這些麻醉"},{"start":481.394,"end":505.011,"text":"量能不夠不然我看麻醉醫學院沒有補啊繼續在出問題這個你當理事長我當理事長我們這樣看得下去嗎台大院長你這樣看得下去嗎對不對欸 那要Cue你了我跟你講不然這樣要怎麼改革我再說這個案子是可以研議的吧我想 市委市召委過去一直在醫界當領袖也一直在"},{"start":506.144,"end":531.03,"text":"那個推動這個品質安全我們已經發表很久了嘛所以品質安全絕對是變成品質安全絕對是我們藝界努力的目標啦啊現在就是人數的shift變成你到時候大便的時候沒辦法起床因為麻醉的問題嘛所以這也要麻醉藝學院各個專科藝學院都有他的立場啊"},{"start":532.193,"end":544.383,"text":"所以這個可能真的要做下來研議啦不管是從醫院的解決或者是從診所方面他們的現在來大醫院麻醉醫師都缺啦麻醉科醫師說全部都要麻醉科醫師"},{"start":548.24,"end":560.311,"text":"你看那些人他們沒有人他們根本就擺爛了總是不能讓那個沒有他們也是得頭很優秀啦也很堅持我說他們醫學要處理這一塊是擺爛啦我不是說他們醫師哪有這個部分真的要大家站在站在團隊立場共同解決全國醫界的"},{"start":568.358,"end":596.078,"text":"人民的健康 醫界的問題 大家齁講實在啦 醫生要在醫生訓練到PY2其實都已經很堅強很強了啦他只要再接受一些訓練的話 其實他可以做更多符合社區民眾需求的這個馬上研議啦齁 健保署來啊 請台大副院長副院長主席給我一分鐘啦好 沒問題"},{"start":599.369,"end":622.995,"text":"院長,你的副院長是女醫師協會的理事長嘛,副職人嘛。那我說你是台大院長龍頭,台灣最高的,跟龍總是兩個在既競爭又聯合。我要跟你說,我把你趕走啦,你有話要說的不要說太快,不要講太快,不要衝第一線,這樣很危險啦。"},{"start":623.84,"end":643.565,"text":"像上次,今年7月在改那個法律的時候,健保法我是推1.1塊錢,有在簽1.0.95,王一鳴那我後來我也撤了,就是說用主決議來協商,感謝邱副長這陣子拚到這時你去回天堂"},{"start":647.779,"end":656.055,"text":"你給我講說1.1塊錢會有道德瑕疵我還真是吞不下去你說的三藝四蛤沒有"},{"start":658.429,"end":686.386,"text":"謝謝委員蘇委那我首先要謝謝蘇委員替我們一介包括剛才那兩個案子我們都贊成而且集中南韓的醫師在不夠已經是現在進行式不是未來式那假如我們沒有更好的作為那第二個是我是擔心健保會破產不是不是因為因為大家也知道我們為了保久已經一年要補那麼多假如是一點一塊我怕我們這整個"},{"start":687.827,"end":712.773,"text":"國家所以那時候我跟陳為民院長其實是在台大榮總在開會的時候有記者來問我我不是說這個會這個會讓我 因為現在其實大家知道健保是總額制嘛總額制假如我們訂了1.1塊的話就等於把總額制取消那這個確實會有很大的管理危機啦1.1塊錢會有道德消失1.0.95就不會有道德消失嗎你覺得在睡嗎"},{"start":717.815,"end":732.933,"text":"講這個聽不下去所以不要說太快你這樣把我們打下去我們大家都灰頭土臉沒有沒有沒有健保組織不會倒健保要怎麼可能會倒啦老保怎麼會倒啦單身便衣會倒 醫生會倒台台你再說你0.9就可以了"},{"start":734.486,"end":758.591,"text":"這毛鼠你醫藥代替都給他定點酒就好了因為他有很多公務預算所以怎麼補都補得起來邱部長 意思是不是這樣台大給他定點酒 醫藥都給他定點酒fix 固定點子給他沒有台大沒有那麼多公務預算還是要還是要自相自滅現在台大的無面小現場頭髮越掉越多為什麼因為現在很多地方"},{"start":759.691,"end":783.953,"text":"都要臺大去幫忙,說你請你們來我們機關其實那些如果沒有一點盈餘來做怎麼去增加教學費用,怎麼去增加病人的需求怎麼去協助偏鄉地區的一些工作所以我想給他足夠的一個點數真的很感謝,這是必要的"},{"start":785.294,"end":808.545,"text":"不用特別對台大那個啦不用特別跟他照顧不用特別跟他照顧 普通照顧就好沒有啦 我要說的意思是每件事都很辛苦啦醫療有點節育他才有能力去改善品質 增加設備 增加方式那儀器都這麼貴這本來就要放策略性的一點盈餘嘛不然的話怎麼搞得下去每一個人都臨臨 大家都這樣"},{"start":811.346,"end":832.892,"text":"白白的安然然,要有點風吹草動就受不了了因為立法院要編特別預算了對不對所以給各個議院有一點盈餘,一點點活水才有辦法做法務委員我想不管是哪一個黨派或者是政府都希望健保能夠永續"},{"start":833.925,"end":852.023,"text":"都希望用最低的保惠能夠照顧最多的所以這個其實過去幾十年來在醫療體系的改革工作環境的改善大家都一起在努力那在健保總和這個制度之下大家有不同的見解我也希望召委了解到不同的見解但是就了解了所以對於總和的評論"},{"start":856.145,"end":866.097,"text":"有各種不同的見解 那我想我們都榮惜但是就是最重要大家心都一致的希望人民得到最充分的健康照顧最後問吳院長"},{"start":868.089,"end":885.966,"text":"你這件事 富山哥這件事 什麼很多事情你到底是往大壓力 什麼資政局就把你施壓 把你關收 關心 關切我們立法院不關收 我們都把你關心 關切而已我們從來不關收 你是到底 你承受多大的壓力謝謝 謝謝 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剛剛我已經秀給大家看了"},{"start":131.246,"end":143.852,"text":"認為是有三十幾個person是認為是有霸凌的符合你們定的這個霸凌標準那個這幾份他說什麼劉玉娟在台北業務組沒有直接對我大聲咆哮但我看過幾次劉玉娟在同仁咆哮我不記得具體內容這是17份你們不知道怎麼挑的裡面的兩份有人這樣留"},{"start":149.795,"end":158.079,"text":"我們做得那麼辛苦還要被罵覺得很委屈錄音帶的內容就是我釋出的內容已經檢舉人同意跟我當時感受一樣很像他會講的話語氣就是他講的話風格讓我感到不舒服部長你們應該要建立機制啊那五十幾位說他有霸凌曾經經常或總是"},{"start":171.601,"end":185.047,"text":"他沒有辦法接受訪談你就隨便找了十七個人裡面十五個人說他沒問題你認為這樣報告會不會失真啊部長如果你是我你收單嗎你買單嗎可不可以容許我請那個召集人理事來他不要不然我還要繼續理事長你好好聽你真的好好聽"},{"start":188.208,"end":207.3,"text":"部長你繼續看頭影片上面這個字眼都是匿名的人留下的字眼你看衛福部員工就是你的管理的衛福部員工所用文字寫下來的恐懼你看中間衛福部官官相互只想吵吵結案官場現象對衛福部沒信心難道反應了就有用嗎可能是又只會被弄得更慘無法確保人身及職場安全因此無法留下聯絡資訊好右邊"},{"start":214.784,"end":225.109,"text":"我們只是想要好好工作大家擔心的是被秋後算帳我仍在衛福部任職罷被秋後算帳所以不留可見的霸凌行為包括咆哮謾罵冷落惡意批評或貶低等多種樣態也出現明顯耍官威破壞組織體制好 左邊"},{"start":231.532,"end":252.604,"text":"擔心不可預測的後果會影響後續的權益被罵的最慘的是科長以及秘書同仁身為旁觀者因為工作環境不佳也隨時想辭去公職如果沒有調查到對的人是沒有辦法問出事實的這是你的員工留下的文字恐懼我讓你做參考旅社長你也跟著聽"},{"start":254.085,"end":268.034,"text":"部長為劉玉娟叫人家自殺的錄音檔流出來以後你們記他兩個身屆免監社保司司長但外宣主義他還是質疑他還是主秘啊你一直告訴我們說主秘只是幕僚單位替他開脫你騙外行人啊來看看衛福部的處務規程主秘的職責是什麼第三條框起來的第二條"},{"start":279.081,"end":299.455,"text":"機密及重要文件的處理我當時就是擔心秋後算帳員工不肯講真話我問人事室處長他說他在管理沒有問題我說但是他是你的上司他叫你要看你不給他看嗎現在都不用看他事過境遷他完全可以看因為衛福部的機要跟重要資料機密資料都是他來講理的"},{"start":302.861,"end":326.361,"text":"部長在這個情況下誰敢說真話他的職權就是準備處理機密及重要文件之處理部長你繼續下來看 理事長你好好聽著來你看看這一張你一直告訴我尊重你又來了尊重這個小組的專業但是調查結果小組名單也不公佈調查結果也不讓大家知道我們看看勞動部兩次"},{"start":328.303,"end":334.19,"text":"好 勞動部至少在第一次調查報告 載明了調查小組的成員公開的調查報告還傳上網你衛福部差很多 你輸兩天你跟我說的藉口 人家勞動部至少做到了你如果不知道怎麼做 你去問洪聖翰怎麼做"},{"start":346.99,"end":366.631,"text":"不過洪部長你現在也有新的案子發生我希望你秉持一貫的水準好好處理今天好像又有這個新的案子上次我們要求你公開報告你說私底下跟我們委員講如果有不滿意我們再進一步處理我現在就告訴你我不滿意證據我已經告訴大家了請問你要怎麼做"},{"start":368.032,"end":389.617,"text":"你一直上次你跟這個呂次長一直說擔心擔心就是說被這個公開報告以後會讓人暗圖所記知道哪些人約談我看過報告就完全這個是這個完全是藉口啊你看我今天報告哪裡看出是誰被約談有嗎所以我今天已經再次提案了我跟總召報備了我要求公開報告重啟調查如果說誰要護短那我就表決我們來看看讓大家看看是誰在護短"},{"start":398.153,"end":403.079,"text":"到底誰要互轉動用心高規格然後又不敢讓社會知道的調查內容報告好 呂氏你可以請回了好 邱部長 現在我要來看台大醫院 台大醫院性騷案可不可以跟我們回答一下好 請說"},{"start":416.268,"end":439.335,"text":"我想非常感謝我們陳昭之委員我想對於我們同仁的這個關心我想這個我們大家都是一起希望能夠為同仁能夠創造一個更好的環境不過我想委員您應該我剛剛提到的那些缺點你那裡面的瑕疵那我們也都我想委員也都是在學術界也待過你也做過量化也做過質化研究特別是質化研究裡面我們有對當事人"},{"start":440.255,"end":467.643,"text":"你做任何研究之前或是做任何調查之前都有做這一個隱私保護我想這個都有簽所以我想這些都必須跑到程序上面所以我不滿意啦你當說我不滿意可以再繼續處理你就繼續處理好嗎所以我今天有臨時提案另外第二點我們這個整個確實整個過程呢我們都是你要想辦法讓人家公開講真話你別說他不肯來我就沒辦法啦那還調查什麼我們本來就是用公開的方式啊"},{"start":468.168,"end":472.432,"text":"我剛剛講那麼多缺點你不要再反駁了你就針對我剛剛講的缺點去處理就好了好 請回 吳院長你一邊聽 你上來說2019年8月台大急診部送診管理師動手摸女同事的腰跟臀部這已經發生了台大醫院博物室第一回2023年6月台大的女教授自己接錄自己在當研修醫師時曾在開刀房"},{"start":491.872,"end":506.983,"text":"遇到性騷擾自己站在對方背後去觀摩開刀實況時某教授說今天怎麼這麼小的評論一直說某教授無法從背後感知他胸部的大小今年9月去年應該是去年9月台大骨科部主任強制猥褻難怪有人說陽光灑不進白色巨塔好"},{"start":514.327,"end":529.563,"text":"除此之外去年六月金三科大佬李明斌一時也爆出性騷案他不僅僅是台灣自殺防治學會理事長也是衛福部委辦的台灣全國自殺防治中心計劃主持人"},{"start":530.683,"end":549.958,"text":"曾在台大醫院精神部受訓的女醫師向媒體投訴李明斌的性騷行為是一件請聽好喔邱部長可能你還是要再再再席只要在台大精神醫學部受訓過的女性都必須了解被口耳相傳要交班要交班有這件事情"},{"start":551.179,"end":564.321,"text":"對於出入精神科的住院醫師來說幾乎是毀滅性的傷害所以當時就有醫師說院內三宿管道是最大的障眼法如果不痛定思痛會有無數個李明斌"},{"start":565.875,"end":581.981,"text":"請問吳院長今天台大大學派了個主秘來這個校長真是藐視國會將近一年半的時間你有痛定思痛嗎你們做了什麼吳院長對這個醫師對林明斌的指控你做了什麼還有前面的部分做了什麼指控做了什麼改變"},{"start":585.289,"end":605.775,"text":"那我可以先回答一下我其實上面有數據只要有申訴人提出欣賞事實上在院內已經處理從110年就處理過很多的後面還有很多問題那我先從黃姓李教授這件問題我一定要澄清因為黃姓李教授他當"},{"start":611.397,"end":637.39,"text":"這不是在這邊澄清問題,我們要求的是一個調查報告,我們一個制度的問題有有有,你們要求的報告我們一定都會有剛才我說邱部長,剛才我說李明斌的保魂,他現在還有重要職位專科醫學會你在乎這個問題嗎?還是你們要切割?你要持最高道德標準?他現在已經沒有擔任衛福部的任何工作了你確定?確定上次我們質詢的時候"},{"start":640.529,"end":669.208,"text":"但是你要用辦法你不是說這次因為要堵不住那個女醫師出來投訴所以你就做了一個因人設事處理好我還有後面的台大婦產部主任楊主任楊主任的聲明中提到你看他自己寫聲明自己獲悉西教授疑似對被害人進行性騷擾以示以後為了保護被害人或協助其相關保全證據的證明僅私下詢問是否尚有其他人證或物證這個楊主任沒說得好一段話三句話三句話都有問題"},{"start":670.59,"end":691.351,"text":"什麼叫自己獲悉難道這個是正式管道告訴他的嗎還是有人泄密不是只有當事人可以知道嗎他為什麼會自己獲悉第二個保護被害人並協助保全相關證據照理說被害人沒有跟他陳述啊他不應該知道被害人是誰啊性命犯調查是秘密進行他也沒有權利來保護什麼被害人的這個保全證據"},{"start":692.852,"end":704.643,"text":"第三個是警司下詢問是否有其他人證物證我可不可以合理懷疑他是在通風暴行帶風向啊他想要問這個被害人你到底知道什麼好回去跟這個西教授說他只有這個問題你還要辦法處理這像話嗎楊主任講這個話像話嗎"},{"start":712.408,"end":738.563,"text":"你也知道我們全家都是台大校友該做的事,深則是切,不對的事就是要做台大下本部你接獲這個投訴案以後為什麼今天台大校長不過來兩邊推來推去,你晚交報告他要把你推回去,聽說來來回回十次到底是誰要隱瞞這個事情啊到底是誰想拖延這個事情啊來來回回,到現在沒有正式的懲處"},{"start":740.967,"end":763.18,"text":"我可以給我一個時間我謝謝陳委員提悉性教訓拜託主席讓我講好你講沒有就是說你很快的告訴我我剛剛只問你的問題來來回回這麼多次在拖延嗎這件事情其實是院方主動立案因為沒有申訴人我們聽聞有這樣的消息主動立案那第二個我們總共開了一次工作小組"},{"start":763.66,"end":785.36,"text":"不對啊 那些醫師考完專科醫師執照就趕去來跟很多人申訴喔沒有沒有 那個都有給我知道我們有把那個然後有六次調查報告然後有兩次委員會你就是持交嘛他有一定的時間 你就是持交嘛沒有沒有沒有持交因為根據我們的那個其實在二月立案六月就已經做出懲處"},{"start":786.241,"end":807.157,"text":"一直說他的報告你的報告不完整啊挑剔你啊沒有申訴人他沒有時間的一個報告但是院方主動根據我們那個性騷髮的那個規定大家委員可以看假如是有申訴人必須要再二加一個院你的處理我還有很多意見好那我再講楊主任並不是"},{"start":808.318,"end":831.155,"text":"並不是裡面的委員所以他知悉是因為他被調來做在調查小組裡面的時候他是被叫來問他才知道有這件事情所以楊子潤他沒有講得很清楚謝謝委員給我一個澄清因為事實上台大醫院這裡未必澄清你講的未必是事實我們都還認證好好沒問題我們都有紀錄"},{"start":832.416,"end":855.743,"text":"兩位部長跟人你們看看台大醫院的這個工會在12月12號就是不久前一個月前聲明台大醫院性騷事件工會會要完善性平制度你們兩個有沒有看到這個這份聲明他向台大醫院院方指出說他說要公佈性平會的成員名單除了可以讓當事人檢視以外也可以加強外部機制但是你們始終不可我想請問你發生這麼多事情以後院長你還強調說這個性平會委名單不能公佈嗎為什麼人家這個勞動部可以公佈"},{"start":862.345,"end":888.107,"text":"然後外部部我覺得工會有他們的立場你的姓平會根本沒有成員我們在這裡也要必須要講有沒有外部專家工會有他們的立場但是不一定都會講明這是對的姓平會是不是有外部專家有 有外部專家你都不公開啊我們這時候都專家當時道德部製程還告訴我們有外部專家我們就是姓平委員會還有這一次我怎麼信任呢"},{"start":891.36,"end":897.804,"text":"所以我剛剛提出提案啊你名單又不公佈告訴我們有外部專家你們在騙誰 扶誰名單是沒有辦法公佈但是我們的委員裡面有三位外部都是這相關的專家然後每次的調查案都還會有兩個律師那都你說的啦 我看沒啦對 是"},{"start":910.991,"end":916.594,"text":"是但是這個我只能夠跟你講事情就一直在遭還沒有結案當事人謝教授也沒有收到懲處還沒有正式懲處對不對還有很多這個居間這個在台大醫院在台大醫院我們是積極的調查我們也立即從這個結果主動調查不管您說的幾位案件但是他們有一些他的本質還是在叫職"},{"start":936.244,"end":942.873,"text":"所以在醫院的部分我們絕對是非常積極的調查也很清楚的有這個調查報告這都有一面之詞嘛這都有一面之詞這個都有調查報告而且在六月份的時候考積委會已經寄達過一次那為什麼不公佈我跟你講你公佈有公佈的方法學學勞動部"},{"start":954.907,"end":974.619,"text":"因為它不是法律案件所以沒有辦法公佈台灣不是法律案件你要破壞繼續破壞醫療機構的形象嗎其實我們還是公家單位要有法可以有法可以依法行政這件事情台大醫院都依法行政因為我們也主動通報其實你看那個性騷法只屬的台北市政府"},{"start":975.72,"end":992.881,"text":"那個禁殺法裡面都有我想今天我們在立法院我們在公家機關我們做事就是要有法可依有法可行依法行政這件事情我們都依法行政我們的結果也不只給台灣大學我們也給台北市醫師公會也有給全聯會然後有相關的衛福部"},{"start":994.403,"end":1013.216,"text":"或甚至你剛才講你批的那個也是送給總統府所以我們完全依法而且立即處理那真的是挑燈夜戰沒有一分的延遲那另外我在這裡也趁機我想這裡有很多媒體我在這裡趁機一次把謝謝委員給我們一次說清楚"},{"start":1013.776,"end":1024.301,"text":"在這個案子裡面在整個調查過程當中並沒有台大醫院並沒有受到任何的壓力我們也沒有收到任何的關訴我不知道這是從何而來"},{"start":1026.243,"end":1032.247,"text":"你要聽聽被害人的聲音啊 你身為院長好 最後你們是自己臺灣女醫師協會對姓名事件的聲明這個我不在這邊同念因為整個姓名三法的不同身份狀態事件發生或情境等等 適用不同那看似好像可以適用 但是實務進度上可能造成這個法規適用的重疊或者漏洞我跟你講每個機構都有說要申報內部的申報機制 但是不好嘛部長你剛剛談到 我舉給你看嘛 140個人你找出了誰 你怎麼找的"},{"start":1056.663,"end":1070.729,"text":"那台大醫院這件事情都還沒有解決啊這個都醫生考完專科醫師指導才敢出來講才敢跟立委申訴啊表示什麼他害怕啊害怕啊院長請你好好三思齁我這時間到了不然我還有更好的表達好謝謝主席謝謝陳委員謝謝部長還有吳院長"}]}},{"id":"158597","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158597","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e509dc951ef5226b6ef82bf49b3fbaf4a509f390aeb082454ac7e4384474ecec015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"09:09:47 - 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有依據召開懲戒委員會的會議那如果委員會決議要廢止醫師證書誰可以決定要不要廢止是我們衛福部嗎"},{"start":196.79,"end":215.13,"text":"像這個比較重大這個比較重大必須要送到衛福部所以他們決定說應該要廢除的時候才送到這邊來那您這邊來決定他還要不要還是您會尊重地方開的這個建議我們尊重這個審議委員可以說都是德高望重"},{"start":215.951,"end":231.688,"text":"那老實講那個委員也是都是長久以來,也不是我們能去隨便跟他修改的啦所以我想他們一定會根據過去的經驗法律他們從他們的倫理,一些倫理方面來做一個很周全的一個判定"},{"start":232.228,"end":253.219,"text":"因為我們擔心的是什麼,現在學校懲處的結果還沒有結果,也要等判刑確定,那這邊一定會有一個空窗期我們能確保這個西教授,萬一他在別的地方職業怎麼辦我們怎麼保障,假如他職業的話,我們怎麼保障患者跟其他醫護不被騷擾"},{"start":256.857,"end":285.257,"text":"我們有做追蹤還是怎麼樣嗎我想我們衛福部的立場是宣導一個性瓶性燒怎麼防治我要講這個我知道部長我知道那至於說那個我們如果他到哪個地方去職場我們會都請當地的衛生局"},{"start":286.349,"end":302.53,"text":"那去加強那個督導那我稍微分清楚一下因為他是他不是跟業務上去併人他是那個對啦我說有這樣的有發生這種案件我希望衛福部主動要追蹤啦好不好"},{"start":303.431,"end":324.438,"text":"當然當然另外我剛才講到這些就是說我發現我們舉個幾個例子來給你看就剛剛我們陳金輝委員有提到我們台大骨科我們的王姓主任110年這個也依照這個強制猥褻罪判刑8個月那部長您知道他現在在哪裡嗎我不清楚他是在哪裡他還在台大骨科是吧"},{"start":333.283,"end":361.835,"text":"那個台大骨科對啊我就覺得這個很奇怪啊然後112年喔台大醫院正性腹癌權威教授那疑似下藥迷昏藥廠的女性業務員那當然啦後來這個我們的性騷擾防治委員會說性騷擾不成立不過這件事情在去年113年檢方4月又開始介入調查了部長知道這事情嗎"},{"start":365.605,"end":386.583,"text":"我知道有這件事情,然後呢?你說事業就又開始...對啊,他又介入調查了嘛,所以你們有針對這樣的事情去注重嗎?可能有虛失證或者怎麼樣又檢方嘛,又檢方又去調查嘛對啊那我相信台大醫院應該都會密切注意到整個過程嘛還有我們新的長輩"},{"start":415.487,"end":417.248,"text":"所以他還在台大骨科嘛 對不對"},{"start":431.823,"end":447.773,"text":"還有我再講新竹也有我們基性小兒科心臟科醫師也替女童檢查心臟的時候涉嫌在兒童超音波室手持超音波探頭用手指抓取觸碰他的乳房"},{"start":448.934,"end":464.979,"text":"那被判刑七個月那現在還沒有看診我想講這些案子給你們大概參考一下還有一個就是精神科名醫我們孔繁錦 涉嫌在我們診所內性侵女病患這件事情那當然他也被判了四年"},{"start":466.019,"end":495.26,"text":"我講的這些案子我剛剛還是回到我們陳金輝委員剛剛也有建議到說我們部長自己有提到說是不是要建置一個網路平台公布這些有這些塑形不良的醫生的一個訊息讓我們的患者還有我們的醫護人員能多一分警覺那這個東西當然也會讓所有的醫生有所顧忌因為這個東西一旦登上去之後對他來講對他本身來講也是影響非常大的"},{"start":496.957,"end":511.557,"text":"我覺得這個是一個手段不是我們的目的我們也是希望有透過這樣的手段讓我們這些醫師就是能夠自己去克制自己去約束自己"},{"start":513.266,"end":536.608,"text":"是,我們在上一屆大家努力之下通過憲憑三法那當然就是希望營造一個大家很互相尊重不會有像發生這種事情,不好的事情的一個環境部長可以承諾嗎?這個部分,您會做這件事嗎?做,我們一定會研議研議嘛,那這個要多久?"},{"start":539.206,"end":555.613,"text":"這個因為牽涉到整個體系的問題不是說我們衛福部喊要公佈就公佈我知道啦,那當然我希望快一點好不好我們會把演繹的過程跟委員報告三個月可以嗎?沒問題,演繹的狀況會跟委員報告"},{"start":560.714,"end":586.221,"text":"另外我們就台大西教授這個性騷的聲音我想在前年112年初就已經傳出來那一直到專科醫生考試完112年11月才敢檢舉而且我們西教授他是慣犯光這次報出來對象至少有6個那台大醫院你們是在11月接到檢舉嗎我們請院長來一下"},{"start":597.083,"end":619.471,"text":"這件事情台大醫院並沒有接到檢舉沒有檢舉 你們是顧主席對 這是顧主席 而且剛才我們這個性評委員會的主任委員高副院長他其實是一收到馬上跟我報告因為有人用那個NINE傳給他這個時間點可能要再釐清一下 對"},{"start":622.068,"end":643.084,"text":"這個受害者本人是用醫院的這個TestMessage寫給我那我也跟他談話這個部分我剛剛也聽到了那我想問的就是說因為我們醫師的訓練是師徒那你要徒弟出來控訴自己的師父這說真的一般人都是非常有壓力的"},{"start":644.065,"end":651.925,"text":"那我們有給這些醫生啊就是說受到侵害的這些醫生有沒有什麼保障"},{"start":653.803,"end":674.989,"text":"還是我們已經很習慣在這裡面我們白色巨塔裡面常常會有這種事情發生好 那我們的住院是有一個友善完全沒有性騷霸凌專業的學習訓練這絕對是我們一定要做的所以當然我受到這樣第一個我就是以老師的身分我非常的感到難過沒有保護他們這邊有個資料就是說"},{"start":677.458,"end":698.261,"text":"我們在2018年就有調查過有80%的女醫師63%的男醫師都曾經遭受過職場的性騷但是只有3.5%的人曾經使用申訴管道那我覺得我們的這個申訴管道是不是不被信任還是有做檢討的空間"},{"start":699.158,"end":716.814,"text":"好這個申訴管道我們在人事室那我們也在醫院持續的宣傳然後在教學部呢在每個階段不管他們在實習PGY住院醫師都有持續的宣傳重點是現在要使用這個人他會不會覺得他有壓力你們是不是能夠保密"},{"start":718.856,"end":743.646,"text":"臺大在保密這部分是覺得可以放心所以像這次事件他們願意接受訪談可是他不願申訴他就有這些擔心雖然我們有給他很多的安全的這個保證但是我們還是用固執的方式那我再重點就是說這些受害者他們並不希望被人家知道所以我們不管媒體或各方面去描述這些其實都是對他們二次傷害"},{"start":744.346,"end":773.56,"text":"那我醫院 我在講我們西教授性燒的案件5月底的調查結果就出來是性燒那你們醫院的調查報告去識別化後公布有問題嗎這個報告沒有辦法公布 除非為什麼這個本來就是有隱私再怎麼樣去識別化還是會對號入座而且這也是對受害者的一個傷害那只有在 受害者是受害是被害人啊 受害者"},{"start":774.68,"end":796.234,"text":"受害那其實我剛才要再補充一下其實5月2號我們會議這個結束之後實際上就有要將加害跟受害者要怎麼執行保護這個當天在報告還沒有全部出來就已經有跟他的直屬現任的主任談我們的主任是楊主任嘛對吧"},{"start":797.374,"end":817.61,"text":"對 就是很早我們就做這些處理我看他發的聲明他說僅私下詢問是否有上有其他的人證或物證可以證明那絕無向被害人表示孤男寡女共處一室要怎麼證明所以我在講這兩句話的意思有哪裡不一樣嗎"},{"start":819.562,"end":840.552,"text":"這個我們不予評論,因為那是他個人的聲明,並不是由醫院做任何的聲明所以他是個人的,醫院不負責任就對了這個是他個人的聲明,不經過我們醫院所以他們隨便講都可以,因為針對這種事情無法回答你無法回答?是那你想來幹嘛?"},{"start":847.235,"end":873.927,"text":"楊主任的那個個人的聲明是在我們見到媒體以後我們院方特別我也有把楊主任講來就為一個行政主管你是不及格的這個是不及格因為我們千方百計用盡各種方法就是要保護受害人我們整個調查的過程我們最第一要務就是保護受害人不要受到二次傷害"},{"start":874.767,"end":886.257,"text":"因為那個加害者那時候還沒有離開那我再問我們這個西教授現在已經離開他也記兩大過那我想請問一下這兩大過對他有什麼影響"},{"start":888.297,"end":913.184,"text":"在其實對醫院來講沒有問題他已經離職而且沒有但是因為他有一個教師的身份他可能假如是被學校解聘跟自動離職辭職這個對他的退休金是會有所影響但是這部分就不是醫院可以跟醫院他就是已經切掉了醫院他已經沒有任何的工作甚至他的工作證跟什麼卡我們都收回了"},{"start":913.484,"end":939.026,"text":"好啦,那我再最後補充,我們結論就是我發現這個事情也不是單一案件,也是發生好幾次的我覺得我們第一線的主管,應該要更有作為一點那這整個的流程,這整個的配套,大家需要檢討一下,大家改進好不好?謝謝那再來,我再請問我先補充一下,其實高副院長是台灣理醫師協會的理事長"},{"start":941.488,"end":958.01,"text":"所以他保護女醫師應該是非常的用心的只是說他還是要按依法行事好 謝謝那個部長這個前兩天我接到我們罹患帕金森市政的病友陳情"},{"start":959.653,"end":980.795,"text":"那他們一直以來無法比照重大傷病享有各項健保的醫療補助那部長我想請問有關帕金森市政的相關社會資源以及相關的福利補助部落都落在這個帕金森市政的中後期也就是說在離病之後的10年左右"},{"start":981.789,"end":990.767,"text":"但他們在前期就無法工作面臨龐大的這個醫療這個相關的醫療的支出你覺得這個東西有沒有減腦的空間"},{"start":993.044,"end":1011.382,"text":"任何一個疾病病人需要照顧而我們沒有給他適當的照顧或者是他們滿意的照顧當然都是我們要去努力的方向跟目標啦那我們帕金森症相關的社會資源"},{"start":1013.474,"end":1030.492,"text":"這個部分那個我想我們在我不要講那麼多啦就你也知道這個東西就是說我認為社會安全網社會體系及健保補助不應該忽略他們那邱部長可以承諾嗎可以承諾協助他們來解決這樣的一個問題嗎就是納入考量"},{"start":1034.502,"end":1061.841,"text":"我想如果在健保方面不曉得有沒有給這個部分怎麼樣的那如果不夠的話,我們再用社會福利來一起來努力那個副署長有什麼話?帕金森市政我們會邀請專業的學協會那特別包含的像神經醫學會,還有這個失智症協會,還有精神醫學會我們邀請他們來擬定這樣子的提案好謝謝,那我看洪部長坐很久應該很無聊,最後一句問你一下"},{"start":1063.022,"end":1090.344,"text":"你這個彈性工時的設計再加工作或同樣的案子就是職業重建等等我們勞動部的勞發署是不是也可以協助一起來解決這個問題說職業重建的哪個部分就是我們剛剛講帕金森市政的患者因為他早在前期他就很多人可能會因為這樣沒有工作這部分我們勞動部這個勞發署是不是可以協助"},{"start":1091.525,"end":1116.654,"text":"這個部分因為重建比較是指的是在施能的部分施能的部分對對對跟委員報告我們目前對於如果他在工作上有需要植物再設計的部分我們是可以提供相關的協助那我們會到時候那我們希望你們兩個部會大家再再聯繫一下嘛好不好好好謝謝謝謝就委員謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"158614","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158614","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/186d177ad48e30e5bd0485c16df0cbabc921d2cbf1168e408d75bdfb612c74e004779979c8b02f845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"10:02:49 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謝謝官員還有委員們首先我想請台大醫院院長還有台大大學的主秘"},{"start":14.9,"end":35.074,"text":"剛剛從許多委員的質詢中都已經聽出來了這次的所有這些性騷擾相關案件是黃腔折粄我剛剛其實是非常難過因為我看到院長面對前兩位委員其實中間還有笑這樣子的樣子我這邊有非常多女醫師陳情的管道"},{"start":35.934,"end":48.965,"text":"很多人現在已經在看身心科中度憂鬱症了看到你在鏡頭前面笑情何以堪啊難道女醫師在你心中不是醫師嗎不是你台大醫院的員工嗎你可以為女醫師主持公道嗎我請問你院長我請問你"},{"start":61.51,"end":76.828,"text":"我覺得這是兩碼子事兩碼子事請不要用這樣子來做一個人身攻擊我自己笑是不是說我是對因為委員"},{"start":77.509,"end":105.472,"text":"我絕對沒有人身攻擊我的意思是說這件事一事體大我很希望院長您可以嚴肅的面對我請問您院長這幾年來我現在在網路上看到您知道台大醫院有一個綽號叫寶山醫院吧您知道嗎最近又多了一個綽號叫杏桑醫院您知道貴院有一位王姓的骨科主任因為杏桑研究助理而告上法院這件事您知道吧"},{"start":106.141,"end":121.059,"text":"而且這件事情我且知道而且我們也因為王姓主任因為這樣他的主任就去職了所以他還在上班他主任就被... 郎一郎一還在歸原上班所以網路上說台大醫院就是性騷醫院沒有錯啊"},{"start":121.539,"end":132.956,"text":"沒有 我剛才已經講過我們可以做我們醫院在法律上給我們的一個權責我要開除他 院長也沒有這個權責開除他我們要開除一個醫師"},{"start":137.142,"end":161.748,"text":"是有一定的一個剛剛教育部剛剛教育部已經來了教育部其實有頒布一個規定您剛講得非常的清楚有許多的地方的學校教育部是說這個教師假使有涉及性騷等等是終身不得聘用沒錯吧教育部是這樣建議大家的沒錯吧王信主任有沒有教職有沒有他有教職"},{"start":164.813,"end":180.088,"text":"所以我們今天為什麼要把衛福部教育部勞動部全部都找出來等一下我們一一來問好除了王姓主任是不是還有一位正姓的婦科主任也被涉嫌下藥性侵是不是有"},{"start":181.55,"end":198.152,"text":"有嗎有嗎您知道嗎這件事情我們很早就處理在法律還沒有因為他現在還在走法律的程序法律還沒有解決的時候院方已經解決所以這位醫師早就已經離職了"},{"start":199.974,"end":223.11,"text":"所以這位醫師最近是不是又申請要復聘嗎他是不是申請要復聘跟那個剛才那個C性因為是同一科所以這兩件事情可能大家把它搞在一起沒有搞在一起我是從前面開始問他沒有這位醫師已經不在台大醫院也沒有在我相信校方也知道那校方最近他有沒有申請復聘他有沒有"},{"start":225.414,"end":238.409,"text":"應該是沒有這回事好 那我想知道說校方跟院方剛剛從副院長的口中聽起來你們是2月收到簡訊知道這件事的 正確嗎2月"},{"start":240.839,"end":262.35,"text":"校方沒有收到是院方院方所以我剛才講的我在這裡再重申一次我們整個的流程非常清楚而且我也有給啊貴院因為只要有來醫院公文來我都有把整個調查的過程就是有關於吸性是在2月我們知道而且是我們的高主任委員他"},{"start":262.97,"end":288.986,"text":"主動跟我報告我們馬上就成立工作小組那成立工作小組我們還是我們要依法行政我們還是要有一個行政的流程而且我們當初希望這個可以正式的申訴但是受害者都不願意所以我們說我們用雇主之息也被查您2月覺得這件事蠻嚴重的所以雇主之息您開始啟動調查但是您沒有覺得嚴重到要通知校防沒有"},{"start":289.426,"end":306.535,"text":"你還沒有調查完以後我們是調查整個已經成立而且我們在6月就開考記委會就記大過一次那時候我們就把整個也通知校方那另外我們也通知那個台北市因為根據那個新商房黃志華假如沒有生"},{"start":307.595,"end":311.378,"text":"是直轄市的主管機關所以我們都有按照法律來做所以院長的意思是說有深喉嚨去跟媒體爆料其實12月就投訴給院方這件事應該是錯的沒有12月沒有投訴我們那個高主任這件事是錯的我只是幫你澄清謝謝有幫你澄清因為12月才知道"},{"start":327.81,"end":331.594,"text":"好你2月才知道ok2月搞到現在已經2025年1月了請問台大校方你們的新評會教評會到底還要拖多久"},{"start":339.226,"end":357.815,"text":"是跟委員報告一下就是說的確是六月台大收到台大醫院過來的報告之後我們事實上就已經開過在七月我們就開過教評會那把這個後面的程序就確認因為還有台大的校方也有性評會那怎麼樣"},{"start":359.136,"end":365.301,"text":"在這個報告啊做一些確認跟釐清所以這個報告的確認跟釐清你覺得問題在哪裡所以你現在是在說院方給您的這個報告需要再確認跟釐清報告委員這個就是程序的問題因為那個報告是台大的性評做的那到了學校學校因為要牽扯到後續成屬的"},{"start":380.955,"end":388.678,"text":"懲處的問題那在懲處的時候在我們的校教評會就需要有一個性評會這邊所以我們只是請這個台大這邊的性評會做一個報告的確認如果有一些要釐清的地方就進行釐清"},{"start":397.182,"end":400.483,"text":"那你這個釐清還要多久你只要告訴大家釐清還要多久整個程序大概都已經都走完了那我們會在下一次的教評會下一次教評會是什麼時候應該就是在這個月應該是這個月應該就會所以你們就會宣布給全國的因為這樣講我們會做完"},{"start":419.15,"end":426.514,"text":"因為懲處就跟我們之前陳校長說的這個是校教評會的職權他懲處完就是做成報告之後會議紀錄也確認之後我們還會報教育部做確認以後我們可以請教育部先回座沒關係我們請那個勞動部剛剛那位司長剛剛勞動部的司長講得非常好我們應該要積極的保護受害人來那個台大醫院院長台大醫院院長"},{"start":446.785,"end":473.717,"text":"這邊也是深喉嚨講的12月17號在早上的10點到下午的3點之間還目擊C教授出現在台大醫院兒醫大樓婦產科樓層完全無視台大醫院為保護受害人的公文要求婦產科對C教授的行動範圍進行管制我想知道吳院長是否有發這個公文希望對他的行動範圍進行管制 您有發嗎"},{"start":475.458,"end":504.756,"text":"好謝謝陳委員那一天是來看牙齒然後看完以後他就確實有去然後我們知道以後我們就請院方有請警衛去而且我們也下了一個公文就是今後只要看到他進入婦產部我們警衛就會把他那天他去婦產部幹嘛他不是已經離職了所以我們接到這個訊息以後我們就馬上院方就請那你之後會如何保護這些受害人"},{"start":505.296,"end":524.289,"text":"我們我相信他應該不能進入婦產部因為我們已經把他的那個卡都收回來因為我們婦產部跟兒科部他要進入那個都是要有刷卡所以他已經沒有卡那一天他怎麼進去的我們還在調查說到底是誰幫他開"},{"start":525.31,"end":536.413,"text":"所以你大概兩週內可以給我們這個報告嗎他是怎麼接觸到這些受害人的還有他怎麼進去的以及他有沒有遇到前列的這些受害人"},{"start":537.938,"end":561.875,"text":"這個好像是沒有因為那一天包括我們高副院長還有另外一位所以你們當天其實是有收到有人檢舉他又出現了那還有其他天嗎其他天就沒有了這一天以外因為那一天以後我們就加強那個管控本來兒醫大樓的那個特別是病房區都有刷卡才能進去除非你按"},{"start":562.996,"end":572.852,"text":"裡面的人開門你才能進去 假如沒有卡那我知道的 呃 呃 呃 西姓組 呃 組織醫師他的卡很早我們就收回 因為他已經離職了"},{"start":573.953,"end":595.453,"text":"好那我們就兩個禮拜靜候您的報告還有您未來要如何加強保護您身為醫師其實你知道女醫師要就是師徒制手把手的有時候交看診交開刀寫論文一起出國開會你看有多少全市的機會有辦法進行這些惡行這些您都可以理解吧"},{"start":596.153,"end":619.235,"text":"其實我可以理解而且我們也很重視那我這順便謝謝陳委員給我這個機會去做澄清那我也在做剛才你說我在笑其實是沒有這是我們已知的我們先不要說我們今天就好好的來討論這件事情我先跟你講剛剛你說你是因為雇主失息知道依照性別平等法第13條的規定"},{"start":621.357,"end":634.25,"text":"但是沒有申訴人的話其實這個整個調查或是報告會在一個秘密的過程而且其實是不需要懲處的我想知道當你沒有申訴人的時候為什麼你要去懲戒呢"},{"start":635.177,"end":653.019,"text":"為什麼因為這個案子非常重大其實在我們110年開始我們院方都有處理過很多性騷的案子在我的資料裡面110年我們接受到七件七件都成立而且都有做懲處其實每年都有"},{"start":653.419,"end":669.593,"text":"那這件事情比較特別因為我覺得這一個醫師他的權勢這麼高而且備份這麼高發生這麼事情雖然沒有申訴人但是我們一定要主動所以那時候我就跟高副院長講說這個一定要勿枉勿重因為這個影響會很大"},{"start":671.374,"end":685.61,"text":"所以其實你的意思是說雇主之息但其實是因為透過簡訊之息但這個人不想申訴啦不想申訴其實是不想申訴並不是沒有申訴人嘛對不對所以你就知道這個影響有多大他還在那邊工作"},{"start":686.271,"end":714.92,"text":"不敢申訴所以這不是勞動部教育部應該要積極的協助這些弱勢的比較還沒有通過執照的女醫師我們今天就是希望好好來討論這件事嘛但院長好這樣看起來不管是你申訴或是耳聞我希望你把它變成一個正式的台大醫院或者是我們可以讓每一個醫院來看我們如何去保護這些學生階級的醫師好嗎不要再被人家寫性騷醫院了"},{"start":715.66,"end":719.363,"text":"真的很丟臉再來我們要請那個台大校方為什麼我們要這麼擔心黑箱審查因為你們是不是去年7月才被監察院糾正你們的教評會跟性評會才被監察院糾正"},{"start":733.383,"end":752.925,"text":"的確是監察院是有來函是對啊我們不能從性騷醫院又變成性騷大學監察院裡面講得非常的明確他說你們台大跟其他學校比起來其他學校淡江中正輔仁抓到有教師有性騷擾就是終身解聘結果你們的"},{"start":753.726,"end":768.878,"text":"姓平慧叫平慧面對一位公衛學院副教授性騷案的時候指出這位教師所受到的處罰跟其他學校類似案件是完全無法比擬在會議記錄上更刻意隱瞞該名建議輕罰的委員也就是說"},{"start":771.86,"end":794.553,"text":"你們已經比別人判得少了 你們說要停職三年然後你們在這個姓評會還有校評會裡面居然有匿名的委員跟大家和諧 跟大家說好啦我們一起把他把三年改成一年最後你們被監察院糾正你們這批人七月被監察院糾正然後現在又要去開這個C教授的校評會跟姓評會 你覺得合理嗎"},{"start":798.845,"end":812.289,"text":"報告委員我們的教評會委員事實上是每一年都會不一樣的那他們是獨立的運作那的確是整個程序當中就是性評會教評會他們都有開會那這個結果"},{"start":817.41,"end":843.84,"text":"對你就簡單的回答我你們被糾正以後有想要檢討性評會跟教評會嗎還是你們覺得不會我們做得很棒棒很好這個跟我們報告一下台大我也利用這個機會跟大家重申這個不管是台大或剛剛院長也講了台大醫院我們都會很重視性評而且我們是因為就是對性別是零容忍所以發生任何的事情我們都一定會依法"},{"start":844.76,"end":868.964,"text":"積極的處理那法律上該做的我們都會那我稍微問一下像我們像立法院的范雲委員他其實也在台大教授婦女性別相關的課程你們台大零零種種這些性別相關學程啦三四十個少說三四十個是不是你們的性評會成員都沒有一個是來自這個性別或是婦女相關的沒有"},{"start":869.604,"end":890.087,"text":"是 報告委員這個部分我們有討論過因為本來我們的性評委員就各個院來推薦那校長這邊是有一個有幾個名額是可以邀請相關的專家那我們今年開始會把我們性別這邊的教授至少會有一個人會在我們的性評委員最少會有一個人喔至少至少"},{"start":891.148,"end":907.442,"text":"這個性評會裡面至少一個人所以表示你們以前沒有上一屆的性評是沒有這個做性別平等研究的老師那但是各個學院可能派來的人他本身就是性評的專家這是有的譬如說"},{"start":908.103,"end":914.351,"text":"沒有 我查了他們都沒有在學程裡面授課性別相關所以你是如何認證他具有參加性評會的資格那個就我剛剛講各個學院他們會推薦他們覺得就是說比較合適當性評的委員那這個部分"},{"start":923.103,"end":937.926,"text":"如果他是專業的不管是他有教這個課或他相關的研究我跟你們說你才剛被糾正所以這件事情全國的人都在看尤其是女醫師女學生研究醫師 住院醫師全國人都在看我分享一個哲學家"},{"start":938.587,"end":963.684,"text":"和納厄蘭說的平庸的邪惡他在講說當一群人不制止惡行反而當作是正常的原本就是這樣做長期都是這樣做來縱容甚至參與其中就是在助長邪惡所以我希望你最後的姓評會校評會的報告可以還給這些受害人一個公道好嗎是我們一定會好好的調查跟做清楚謝謝三位跟冷魂精對不起那個邱部長"},{"start":973.052,"end":992.303,"text":"邱部長這個是您前幾天12月30號回應許多民團啊因為您知道我們在瑞黃委員會也有講不管是針對這些幼教的狼師啊或是保姆等等我們都會設置一個平台讓大家安心你說針對狼醫你要可以研擬可以研擬是你要做還是你不要做還是你會研擬會不會研擬因為你只有說可以研擬"},{"start":995.663,"end":1021.865,"text":"好 我想我們要整整 剛剛今天整個過 討論整個早上討論相關的一個一個機制 不管是從學校 職場醫院 已經討論很多那基本上衛福部當然是一直關注的做我們應該要做的事情那有關於要建立 朗醫會有這樣的一個建議我們認為有建立一個平台來公布這樣的資訊其實是"},{"start":1025.248,"end":1052.699,"text":"看起來是值得研議的所以要研議好那我會再追您的研議的進度好的好再來這個我不知道您有沒有聽聞您最近要開始推30歲免費健檢這個是個德政我覺得非常的好利益良善可是您知道衛福部有發了一份文件叫做醫事服務機構辦理預防保健服務注意事項您知道這件事嗎"},{"start":1054.694,"end":1079.481,"text":"這個我大概知道你知道炸鍋了嘛對不對好我們就簡單的跟大家講一下現在雖然你宣傳成人健檢下降到30歲但是你發了另外一份文件跟第一線的醫護人員說如果這些人原本就有三高有定期檢查有定期治療或者是有被糖尿病P4P計畫收案提供的衛福部將不會核付這筆費用那你應該看得出問題在哪裡吧"},{"start":1083.422,"end":1109.33,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員給我這個機會再度跟全國的醫療院所說明經過國民健康署的一個澄清明年度絕對不會去做這個部分的勾結 為什麼因為我們要站在人民的立場而不是站在會計或者是我們公務的立場那因為在公務上面我想委員可能也我過去幾十年也接過很多"},{"start":1110.246,"end":1131.659,"text":"衛福部的各個局 署的計畫管制的非常嚴格而且不能有重複所以我們這個可能是可能是事務單位很擔心你健保這麼嚴重現在這麼嚴重是不是重複但是我覺得站在醫師的立場還有病人的立場我先講醫師 醫師不會這麼說醫師一定知道說他有說我腦袋被抽兩遍"},{"start":1140.204,"end":1156.429,"text":"對不對 不可能嘛哪一個醫師會做這種事嗎一定是這裡可以做UOT這裡可以做我一定是顯或者是兩個宗家起來站在病人最佳的一個利益來做一個專業的處理一般都是這樣子所以這個部分跟我們行政部門的一個互動"},{"start":1157.229,"end":1173.507,"text":"在這個部分是有個需要GAP部長我跟你講這件事有三個面向要分析第一個你跟全國的人說可以做健檢這個很棒但是第二個你沒有跟全國的人說但是你有三高不能喔這個你沒說喔所以你的正義宣導就有問題"},{"start":1174.568,"end":1201.256,"text":"那當然這些人也會覺得說我已經繳健保費了我本來就應該要做這個你提供的30歲健檢而且部長您太久沒有在第一線了光是把兩張醫師卡跟健保卡插好並且連到VPN再去找他有沒有糖尿病我告訴你我帶著你操作一遍你就知道要花多久不可能整個早上都在做這件事情所以這件事我們一定要從IT端去克服你才可以執行這樣子好嗎"},{"start":1202.486,"end":1226.181,"text":"報告委員我是去年的520上任以後才沒有接觸第一線過去40年每一個禮拜都看見當立委的時候因為我有義務我是借調的我有義務回去做指導門診我們最後一次 要再久啦這件事情我非常感謝你了解這基層的聲音真的要處理而且是國際"},{"start":1227.342,"end":1244.239,"text":"國健署已經馬上在處理請全國醫療院所安心我們一定會把他處理到美人需要什麼檢查我們盡量都做完整的一個健康檢查來落實健康台灣真正的目標好那我們也會再繼續追您在這個IP端的進度謝謝 謝謝部長好 謝謝陳委員 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非常好按照你當初的軍令狀一個月之內要回報處理結果這個120幾案有沒有必要跟社會大眾做一個說明也展現一下你這個平台的執行成效"},{"start":142.587,"end":170.142,"text":"因為十二月十三開始然後一百多件差不多了因為他這個調查的過程基本上他內容是屬於各自的部分屬於密件那我們會就是人種的部分會持續的監督就是說回報處理的結果持續的監督回報處理結果對對對那我們會定期的對外來說一些公佈好你第一次打算對外做一次總體的公佈去展現這個平台處理成效的時間預計是什麼什麼時候"},{"start":172.078,"end":186.797,"text":"這個我可能要跟人總討論一下又要討論這樣是不是有點可惜因為他的行政罪我必須還是得要好沒關係至少今天在委員會答詢的時候有很有意義的數字叫一百二十幾件的具名已經立案的案件這我要提醒祕書長"},{"start":188.078,"end":206.618,"text":"我要提醒秘書長就是說這個東西不是說你內部調查調查完然後照你這個立案然後就把它結了就算了那這樣本質上這整件事情還是在這個從社會大眾的角度來看它還是屬於一個黑箱的狀況嘛因為你怎麼處理的你到最後怎麼樣你也不見得有一個對外說明的機制我現在講的這個事情已經不是"},{"start":207.259,"end":222.649,"text":"按照過去公部門處理的流程或什麼可以讓社會大眾幸福的所以你現在這個報應平台有成立你就要有一個定期對外的說明機制你要不要針對這個對外的說明機制你們現在針對這個事情的SOP也好時間表也好你們是怎麼抓的要不要說明一下"},{"start":224.345,"end":235.271,"text":"報告委員我想這個部分因為我剛才特別提到怎麼樣對外說明這個部分我們還是要跟人種這邊做一些討論那剛剛講那實際的調查的狀況我們是有是有在follow你"},{"start":240.453,"end":258.556,"text":"我的意思是說我當然給你一點時間給你一點空間是沒有問題但是這個對外說明的機制要非常的清楚這件事情要稍微公開透明不能再用黑箱的方式處理這是本席的第一個提醒主動通報到底有多少成效我們來追蹤第二個我要再問秘書長你覺得真的整個公部門你這麼大一部國家紀真的只有120案嗎"},{"start":259.995,"end":281.627,"text":"報告委員我剛才說明了這個120幾個案子不是行政院所屬機關因為它還包括了地方政府當然啦現在中央的部分大概是50幾案地方政府大概30幾案我現在問你是說你現在這是有通報的嘛以你在官場的這樣的經驗你真的覺得大家因為有這個平台就通通會通報嗎"},{"start":283.41,"end":310.161,"text":"應該不會吧我們是鼓勵啦鼓勵嘛對不對你也只能講鼓勵對不對那不敢通報的狀況你怎麼處理你覺得這個會不會是所謂的冰山一角一百二十案敢通報其實下面一千多案不敢通報本席還是認為非常高的可能是這樣所以除了你這個平台的處理機制之外不能只有這個平台我們剛剛看到你的各項策進措施裡面本席覺得比較有待嘉獎或者是有待討論的地方是如何辨識職場霸凌"},{"start":311.621,"end":336.02,"text":"如何讓大家從不敢通報然後變成說比較敢講出自己的委屈讓公部門的文化來做一個改變這本席提供你幾個建議啦這曾經在考試院的質詢的時候本席也提過辨別職場霸凌的情況也就是說你從領導這個國家機器這個角度來看第一這些單位不管他是中央政府的部會還是地方政府的特殊單位那個單位的離職率啊調職率啊有沒有異常的狀況"},{"start":336.781,"end":361.571,"text":"你看看當初的勞發署他是不是離職率非常異常當然我們這是事後爆發悲劇之後大家回頭去看才發現但他山之石嘛既然有這樣的案例是不是要做一個通盤的檢討第二烤雞的部分是很重要的啊我現在很擔心啊這公部門之所以會霸凌然後大家敢怒不敢言或者是有委屈往肚子裡吞那就是因為烤雞抓在長官手上萬一有像謝怡榮這種擅長向上經營的這種人"},{"start":363.852,"end":385.084,"text":"那壓力是很大的烤雞的部分要不要透明一點有沒有一個改善的機制那第三才是說個別公務員的工作量啊效率等等的情況這就比較細節了但是大多數這樣的一個精進措施你們現在行政院裡面有沒有討論也就是說在平台主動通報沒有辦法觸及到或者是沒有辦法改善的文化的部分識別的部分你們有什麼加強的措施"},{"start":387.634,"end":414.4,"text":"事實上人事總署他有您剛才提到的比如說離職率比較高的部分或怎樣人總如果發生這樣的狀況會讓這個所屬機關讓他理解說我們有注意到你們這邊離職率是比較高但是我跟委員報告離職率比較高不一定就是跟霸凌有同等關係當然有可能是泄漢這也值得關注有可能是很多的員工被挖角"},{"start":415.18,"end":422.99,"text":"因為他這個單位事實上他的員工非常非常優秀所以到處被挖走了所以當然你整個這麼多的部會這麼多的機關我們剛剛講的是特殊狀況嘛你看你如果講說過去有這個狀況勞發署的狀況你們有發現嗎"},{"start":431.018,"end":453.124,"text":"那個離職率非常高的狀況有發現嗎?人總有發現嗎?這個我要跟人總...你要再確認一下對不對?所以這個本來就是應該要列入督導的對象那我就要問啊如果說你這個行政機關除了讓他主動通報之外你還要主動掌握對不對?那你現在在主動掌握徹底了解這樣狀況的時候是由誰來追蹤?是由哪一個比如說政務委員嗎?或是誰來做督導?你們現在有沒有討論這件事情?"},{"start":453.924,"end":473.712,"text":"現在的追蹤機制就是人事總署因為它是人事是一條邊的所以它等於是所有的人事的體系裡面它是一個最頭所以基本上現在就是由人事行政總署來督導對不對然後把這些東西來做執行那你什麼時候可以提供一個我們剛剛講我想秘書長應該不會反對啊這個調職率離職率特殊狀況主義拿出來討論的你總有一些數據的收集吧"},{"start":478.914,"end":485.12,"text":"你覺得應不應該做一下掌握應該要掌握對不對好我給你一點時間但你什麼時候可以把這樣子的一個報告交出來"},{"start":486.378,"end":510.039,"text":"就是說所謂的我姑且稱之為霸凌高風險或者是說職場相對不友善這個名字怎麼舉我沒有意見但是這樣一個機制要出來人事行政總隊來做OK那你什麼時候可以提出一個初步的報告可以可以但是我跟委員報告我們會有附註說明就是說經過了解以後離職率比較高他跟霸凌事實上還是不太一樣你跟我講什麼時候有報告就好了"},{"start":511.279,"end":533.348,"text":"那給我們現在是現在是1月嘛是不是給我們一個月或兩個月的時間好我給你我給你兩個月啦好這個事情我們長期追蹤好但是這兩個月你不只要把這個東西交代出來也就是你的主動追查進度第二個你那個相關的平台的後續處遇啊你要怎麼跟社會擔當來說明啊你要一併把它想越清楚好不好好對不起主席我再用30秒這個"},{"start":535.79,"end":544.295,"text":"這個我本來期待前幾天在財政委員會就要問你這個事大家現在在講預算要刪28%我們下午要審你們的預算我們是要統統剪裂28%嗎"},{"start":545.56,"end":569.601,"text":"沒有啦沒有因為我上次問你的副秘書長啦我問他說這是不是行政院統一的命令因為他們一直在發圖卡啊然後我問他說是不是在簡歷28他沒有說不要不要我問他說這是不是行政院的命令然後副秘書長的回答還蠻經典的他說應該不是然後他說就我所知不是後來變就我所掌握的資料不是他不是領頭我不能為難他但你是秘書長到底是或不是啊你們有沒有下這個令啊"},{"start":570.021,"end":580.706,"text":"沒有沒有要重編沒有要重編對不對也沒有要產28%對不對沒有嘛沒有喔明年的部分沒有明年的部分沒有但是明年的部分沒有嘛對不對那我問你為什麼內政部又跑出來又講要產28%"},{"start":583.41,"end":610.235,"text":"因為在我們那個質詢結束之後 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當然要怎麼看 但是我是覺得受到高規格的禮遇是因為我看是只有州長出席 但是聯邦層級的參眾議員行政的一些官員都沒有出現嘛"},{"start":384.193,"end":387.395,"text":"所以大家會質疑說這是不是賴總統是去地方性質的出訪呢而且2001年阿扁前總統出訪美國的時候到紐約政交所敲鐘為什麼賴慶德總統不能在夏威夷隨便走走呢和喬鮑碰面一定要喬宴的場合和喬鮑碰面呢還有一點就是說他在出訪喬宴的時候背板為什麼沒有寫中華民國是我們不放嗎還是不被美國准許呢"},{"start":411.132,"end":417.296,"text":"因為蔡英文2019年去夏威夷的時候背板就有寫中華民國還有一點就是賴總統在美方有兩次的閉門會議那一次是夏威夷智庫東西方中心一次是跟州長談緊急的救難這些都沒有會後的記者會為什麼會是這樣呢那這代表什麼呢是不是美方希望我們要低調呢還是不想忍辱中國呢還有一點就是賴總統"},{"start":440.971,"end":455.887,"text":"關侏羅紀公園的時候州長都沒有陪同這是不是和一般民眾旅遊有什麼不同呢這是總統外交嗎這看起來就有點像度假不是這個其實我們跟英格拉森就是那個"},{"start":458.242,"end":483.174,"text":"這個AIT他們都有陪同啦因為最主要是這一個不只是什麼度假這個最主要是它是一個生態保育跟整個影視觀光結合很成功的一個案例所以我們也去了解那到夏威夷州的這個就是就是防災的這個中心去看那為什麼會不會沒有記者會 對"},{"start":484.571,"end":510.944,"text":"那也有報導啊 也有相片啊然後我們後續也啟動很多合作對 是不是因為一個記者會讓大家有記者有在 記者都有照只是記者沒有進去那一個因為他們防災中心下面裡面的設備它有一定的機密性因為我看這個報告上面寫得很清楚因為我進去的時候都看到記者在那邊說我們是跟美國政府 駕著那個攝影機啊其實我們跟美國地方政府其實有密切的關係嘛 對不對因為在上面 我們今天也做了報告上面講你看我們的國旗也在上面啊"},{"start":511.724,"end":522.274,"text":"但是州長都沒有陪同 那真的是關係真的是像外交部說的這樣有有有 州長陪同的時間應該是史上最長的啦當然看場合 你看我們到關島區喔 總督齁 大家也知道邀請我們去關邸 然後不管是放國旗還唱國歌"},{"start":530.942,"end":550.997,"text":"所以我是覺得單點去看看不準啦應該整體來看台美關係我們建立在一個互信的基礎上很良好的溝通那該怎麼做都是大家很有共識的這一次很順利就是在於我們前面的溝通做得很好好 因為還有一個就是說見不到在地的聯邦議員就算了因為賴總統打電話給美國聯邦眾議員議長的配偶器國會議員就坐在我旁邊有參加橋宴"},{"start":557.322,"end":565.146,"text":"所以 裴洛西是美國總統當選川普的最大敵人嘛不過啦 那個是在夏威夷 到了關島就有報導另外一位啊就Mark Johnson啊就現任的國會議長也有啊因為我們過去有兩個地點要一起放來看啦就是夏威夷跟關島要一起所以夏威夷是沒有的嘛 關島是有的意思是嗎有啊 國會議員有參加 就住到旁邊啊"},{"start":587.553,"end":597.802,"text":"現在賴總統如果說要去美國肯定都是要事先安排嘛這是不是一定的因為這個時機確實各方面的考量結果論來講是算很順利啦但是我想說如果是視訊的話是不是美國不忍還是不想要不願意直接見面呢這樣我會不會覺得說這樣是不是美方對我們的賴總統信任度是不是有質疑呢"},{"start":610.213,"end":621.099,"text":"因為美國還在政府交接而且還在議會開議期間真的是能夠像國會議員能夠返回參加橋宴我們很感謝至於其他的有些用視訊或電話那個是我想是因為這個時間的關係"},{"start":626.062,"end":630.024,"text":"好那個主席再給我一分鐘因為因為還有很多沒有問題但是我再問一個最簡單的問題好了請教一下部長川普1月20號就職典禮我們立法院這邊要韓院長率團去包含我們王定宇召委都是會跟幾個委員一起前往那川普的團隊如何認定"},{"start":643.689,"end":648.233,"text":"台美的關係應該是可以從座位上面來安排嗎這點部長應該是同意嘛在2020年拜登就職的時候其實我們那時候代表是蕭美琴是被安排在使節團的座位區這樣不是啦 這使節團附近啦但是這樣的話那你覺得我們這一次會被安排在使節團的這些座位區裡嗎"},{"start":663.826,"end":686.114,"text":"沒有 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謝謝主席那個部長 輪流一下 我們先請勞動部 洪部長網友好"},{"start":22.864,"end":35.27,"text":"部長我先請問你那個救安基金的審計部的報告你自己有沒有看過有是不是我要先跟你討論這個救安基金的問題審計部已經證實了這個5174萬救安基金的編列是使用不當的而這當中我們可以看到光是媒體宣導的費用就高達3784萬佔整體的七成三"},{"start":51.498,"end":66.288,"text":"也就是勞動部把你們的沒宣費用除了你公務預算有編列一部分之外多數你通通都用救安基金來使用而這個審計部直指你們"},{"start":67.469,"end":79.235,"text":"是使用不當這當中我上次質詢的時候我就問許民村的演唱會他的經費從哪裡來是從你們媒體的這個預算裡面來的然後你們當時還告訴我說這個是開口合約沒有問題審計部的報告就告訴你你們名目都不符很有問題違法使用部長這個部分你們要怎麼去改進"},{"start":97.487,"end":111.446,"text":"跟王委員報告其實這裡面審計部報告我們都讀過了所以裡面有分幾個部分的層次審計部在你有沒有覺得你們開口合約有問題你們的預算編列不夠精確先跟王委員報告"},{"start":112.828,"end":129.355,"text":"審議部裡面確實有提到開口合約的問題那這部分關於履約的管理那也包括其實有一些後續的集合的部分目前我們已經請同仁來進行相關的檢討那我們也不排除未來當然要調整做法"},{"start":129.909,"end":143.047,"text":"好我就告訴大家這個勞動部花錢完全如流水不手軟他們製作一部影片勞動節主題影片你知道這三年來他們花了2800萬"},{"start":145.811,"end":164.415,"text":"平均一支影片的造價的金額是一千萬到八百萬之間平均是九百萬那個衛福部邱太仁部長我麻煩你上來一下我要問一下衛福部請問你們在媒體宣導的預算裡面你們做一支影片花多少錢衛福部的預算編列"},{"start":171.047,"end":187.625,"text":"來 你們下面的師長趕快去救駕你們自己都有編列預算啊保護師你們平均做一支影片要花多少錢人家勞動部是一千萬到八百萬的規格請問你勞動部做多少錢看第一個秒數第二個用什麼方式你曾經最貴的多少錢嗎"},{"start":189.386,"end":209.697,"text":"90萬左右也是有的啦都不到100萬對不對我自己知道的情況大概也是這樣子是這種規格好兩位請回去紅部長我就是要讓你看到勞動部有這樣的一個就業基金的小金庫你們的媒體預算遠高於其他部會一支影片竟然耗資1000萬到800萬是怎麼做的"},{"start":214.461,"end":225.073,"text":"你這段我沒有去查你上任之後你是不是要這樣的情況那你明年是不是繼續這樣子編跟網友說明我們其實在檢討我剛才說審議部的報告裡面其實裡面提到好幾個層次的指證"},{"start":228.182,"end":253.487,"text":"這個要不要檢討 你回答就好當然 這當然要檢討所以明年不會出現這種八百萬等級的影片勞動部不會出現了我覺得還是要看它這個採購的規格是否合宜我們現在在講的這個問題是關於採購的規格的合宜度的狀況那我們確實有看到 過去的社會裡面不是要拍電影 你也不是文化部一個勞動部拍片要耗資一千萬"},{"start":254.827,"end":278.805,"text":"是拍什麼啊?拍小電影啊?所以那個跟完說明我們其實也有在檢討說有一些可能他可能是需要有需要的工作,但凱德的規格是不是合宜?另外一個,好我時間有限,部長我們進行下一個另外一個是你們的整個基金管理一團糟你們現在自己設定了一個門檻五千萬以上的計畫"},{"start":280.166,"end":303.343,"text":"才要去查核查核的比例佔你總基金的預算只有兩成多這是審計部的報告直指你們的整個管控的覆蓋率太少了完全不足這麼少的一個覆蓋率多數都是你勞動部說了算包括我前面指出來的你這一些製作影片的錢"},{"start":304.324,"end":326.639,"text":"加起來每一年沒有超過五千萬所以根本不用送這一個審核所以只要部長拍板就可以這其實並不是只要送審核啦簡單來說審議部這個報告是指其實我們還有在另外設一個內控的機制你們內控機制也沒有發揮功能啊所以內控機制裡面是五千萬以上"},{"start":327.499,"end":346.938,"text":"雙重的不足嘛第一個你設了一個高門檻審計部的報告直指你這個五千萬其實是不合理的嘛我們審理的公務預算一百萬幾十萬在立法院裡面每一筆委員直指細細的審結果到了你的救安基金五千萬以下的通通不用審啊"},{"start":347.659,"end":367.31,"text":"跟委員說明並不是五千萬以...你有說委員會審嗎沒有啊這個指的其實也不是委員會這個指的是我們在另外設了一個內控的機制我知道再去做事前事後的把關所以我們現在會接下來會要來提出了強化把關的機制裡面"},{"start":368.01,"end":396.469,"text":"也會針對事前的審查的強化甚至事後的集合來做強化的把關這事情也在我們強化把關機制的方案裡面好你這個問題真的很大難怪這個弊端重生那所以我在這邊就具體的訴求拒絕勞動部的小金庫現在就要修正救安基金管理機制而部長你答應大家你當時允諾是一個月之後你會提其實時間差不多了"},{"start":398.871,"end":411.939,"text":"我們一定會在一個月內提出就是一月到了呢對我們一定會在一個月內一定會提出什麼時候你告訴大家我先告訴你我的訴求我不知道你的改革內容有沒有比照這個第一個"},{"start":413.34,"end":415.821,"text":"你的媒體宣傳費用大家剛剛已經聽到了勞動部跟衛福部天差地遠所以沒宣費用如果編到公務預算立法院逐筆審查就不會有你們這樣子浮邊爛邊的一個情況未來你的沒宣費是不是應該回歸公務預算來編列"},{"start":432.032,"end":451.981,"text":"跟委員說明確實勞動部過去長期以來我們確實存在著我們其實有很多的經費的使用我覺得是過度依賴救安基金的狀況那這部分我覺得我們也會來跟行政院跟主計來爭取應該該回到公務預算的部分這部分我們會來跟行政院來爭取這件事情"},{"start":456.783,"end":474.064,"text":"另外一個你們自己自設的五千萬以上計劃你的那個審核的門檻要不要下修跟文說明並不是五千萬才需要審核好像五千萬以下怎樣做都可以不是我們會在這個相關的計劃的用途上面做出更明確的把關"},{"start":476.928,"end":492.906,"text":"我們幾個強化機制上面幾個大的方向第一個用途上面會做出明確的把關跟範定再來是一個在管理跟審查的機制要強化這裡面可能包括事前跟事後再來一個事情是關於資訊的部分"},{"start":493.487,"end":509.442,"text":"那我說這幾個我剛剛看了委員其實提到的部分我覺得我們當然可以來考慮就是說我們因為我們現在是設了一個內控的機制是不是一定是只能五千萬有沒有可能下修這部分我們是可以我們可以但並不是五千萬以下完全不用審查並不是這個意思"},{"start":510.503,"end":530.143,"text":"所以我要求你們每一項計畫,其實是使用救安基金,你的預算要想使編列,審計單位才可以監管。這都是我們接下來希望的方向。如果是公開透明,你們就應該要做到這樣。當然,這都是我們希望的方向。那你什麼時候,你要告訴大家你這個審核機制,什麼時候要公布?一個月真的快到了,部長。其實應該就是這個禮拜。"},{"start":532.093,"end":556.73,"text":"就是這禮拜 禮拜五前公佈應該就是這禮拜好 禮拜五前公佈 對好 那另外一個我要問的是麥當勞打工少女輕生事件是這個事件其實凸顯最嚴重的是我們未成年人他打工的時候他可能對於自己的保護力是不足所以就更需要政府的機制來強化我們來保障他但是這個個案我們看了真的非常遺憾他是在麥當勞這麼大的一個"},{"start":558.992,"end":574.429,"text":"企業體系裡面還發生他從性騷到被性侵這當中沒有得到一個適當的政府的力量的介入跟幫忙那我要問部長的是其實現在16到18歲打工的情況還是是有的"},{"start":575.329,"end":589.319,"text":"那怎麼樣去確保這些未成年人16到18歲他們在職場是安全的你在今年的勞檢專案裡面你會不會針對這些未成年人他的職場安全你們有一個專案的勞檢計畫會不會去推動"},{"start":591.66,"end":613.827,"text":"跟委員說明我們其實已經在規劃114年的專案勞檢裡面我們會擴大尤其是針對這個職場的性騷擾他的防治尤其是要提供可能假設被害人他一些心理諮商等等等事後這次也就是這次麥當勞沒有做到的事情我們會把它列為我們在114年的專案勞檢擴大專案勞檢裡面的重點項目"},{"start":616.588,"end":634.208,"text":"對 我要求的是特別針對他有僱用16到18歲的這個企業場域當然 甚至我們都還希望未來在這個年輕人上面的勞動教育都必須要再加強因為你讓他們有相關的勞動意識相關的權利意識我覺得這也是非常重要的事情"},{"start":634.448,"end":651.501,"text":"好 因為我覺得這個職場安全企業負起這個責任其實是蠻重要特別針對未成年人的保護我希望勞動部 這個洪部長你一直也很關心弱勢這些未成年人我希望你可以再花更多當然 我也打工過好 謝謝謝謝王委員 謝謝部長接下來請蘇清泉質詢"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}