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謝謝"},{"start":2524.81,"end":2550.933,"text":"那更不應該啊,他連跟院長請假都沒有,那我們朝夷協商是沒關係,那個轉達陳部長又朝夷協商做優先,好不好?好那我們現在來進行第一案,我們1月3號已經大家講好了,我們有順著一案一案來溝通那發展觀光條例,我們現在首先請各黨團來表達意見那蔡書記長,你舉手了是不是?沒有哪一位要表達意見?"},{"start":2557.886,"end":2580.204,"text":"我們事實上在上個星期五我們朝野協商已經大家基本有共識明天可以進入竹條來做處理事實上上個星期五我們也已經進行了廣泛的討論在這一部分事實上我想各黨其實對於一個基本的態度就講得都非常清楚"},{"start":2580.965,"end":2600.175,"text":"那當然以國民黨台的態度我們會希望那觀光發展條例因為事實上這個這些條文裡面大概有六條事實上是民進黨王美惠委員的提案那我們也予以尊重那然後在院會裡面其實也有很多的條文"},{"start":2601.335,"end":2623.885,"text":"基本上也是愿为会讨论出来的那大概可能在明天需要处理的一条就是有关于展延五年的问题那这个部分虽然那个各党团可能还有不同的意见但是呢在上个星期五大家也有一致的共识就是在明天的时候呢我们仍然会进入一些主条有些比较有争议性的"},{"start":2624.545,"end":2644.674,"text":"的條文大家會來做一些論述來討論之後我們還是在進行議事處理所以我想今天這個條文應該是非常簡單的以上謝謝好謝謝請柯建民總長請台灣民眾黨請準備上禮拜的朝鮮黨"},{"start":2652.904,"end":2678.632,"text":"執行委員院長不在嘛那副院長主持,副院長主持在大概有主持跟沒有主持一樣都是我們黨團自己在談那一個很簡單的事情可以十分鐘談完了被郭文綺以及黃國昌然後當郭文綺講完的時候他的條件我們全部答應他趕快跑然後讓黃國昌再反對這樣這樣丟來丟去我講話你不要聽我都審慎事實孝順小一點沒有"},{"start":2683.447,"end":2695.666,"text":"高興表現在你旁邊就好了,好不好來重新開始啊高興寫在你上就好了,好不好所以呢一個"},{"start":2697.106,"end":2720.532,"text":"9月8日開始跟論壇以後一個簡單十分鐘非常難的事情搞到了校委裁判表決一再刁難往前看的時候大家對於未來這兩個法案早就有共識因為我一直講一個事情我剛剛問你講一個事情,你早講一個事情就是說我們要揚棄這一屆以來"},{"start":2724.962,"end":2753.108,"text":"韓院長首主持宴會的樣態什麼樣態呢過去三十年來沒有人敢這樣做那我們這個另外的周秘書長等一下應該回答一下也在包開佔領主義台然後點名表決兩次如此所以扣錢法案這是三個法案可以這種如此所以我認為過去沒有"},{"start":2754.441,"end":2782.212,"text":"過去王院長的時候,就一再寫章,院長是調而定來另外一組是把第三條規定很清楚院長必須推出政黨,不能有黨職然後要總理,所以要調而定來,王院長做得最徹底往後,再往後面一點的話,剩下前院長,尤其是前院長"},{"start":2783.604,"end":2796.237,"text":"至少要表決前一定有吵的協商不管協商的次數多廣,一定奉行就是說要有協商協商以後沒有結論沒有關係"},{"start":2797.665,"end":2821.841,"text":"才能讓他簽名就說沒有結婚那叫意識程序處理那意識程序處理就是每一個人都可以發言就是展現高度民主程序所以我一直跟婦女講說我們要重新建立、重塑立法人的新文化醫療大家不要再玩傢伙啦,都在學法啦"},{"start":2823.148,"end":2845.649,"text":"啊為了游來什麼?你們國民黨占領主義台有人要衝上去有人被丟下來啊這是何其危險的事情啊這一過程的肆意謀殺的現行法可以提告的啊這非常危險那可以把他甩到地上然後用腳踩當維民黨黨派那種招我看不下去啊"},{"start":2846.986,"end":2874.831,"text":"雖然國民黨現在是身體很健康,但頭腦不見得很好那就是空無有力,空無有力行政院長我請問,這種情形可以再繼續下去嗎?所以我很抱歉說,對於這次我們所有三個法案既然因為經過所有程序,也無辜於處理了盡量可以"},{"start":2876.673,"end":2891.911,"text":"扣住說這個陳一貞召委以及新一任召委所以召委說不能送出立法院這真的,這當然太離譜了哪一個經過,因為這個表決過,而且當然衝突下表決然後說"},{"start":2897.157,"end":2913.906,"text":"跟觀光發展條例有關係嗎?這有牽連性好不好,牽連性你不要緊張,明天就有表決兩條條,三個條而已,而且一定會表決嘛所以今天我們要把這東西講清楚,我們今天要的只是發言記錄而已所以請你先忍耐"},{"start":2915.487,"end":2935.981,"text":"你要寫一定標革的,三天要標革,我想請一個人翻譯一分鐘而已,三分鐘而已所以明天的議程絕對是很私立合併的所以我一直主張,我跟妳講說我們在重塑立法的文化,以後就叫民主程序一直程序翻譯後、協商後"},{"start":2938.303,"end":2961.423,"text":"有結論你叫結論處理,結論說只剩下一條就一條沒有結論,那中文發言,結論我有幾個發言都講好這才是立法院以後就要這樣做我希望多申請他兩次,你平時你批我然後向中國交代這種行為應該回本歷史遺跡"},{"start":2965.214,"end":2986.625,"text":"他們都忘記學法那韓院長剛才自己很有氣的老同事他很會討論自己薄金一餐他說這可能我是最後一次解釋,只是抄一箱我們都希望說一一成正沒關係,我們大家老兄弟學會考驗一下所以為什麼我發動報名院長當年"},{"start":2990.936,"end":3016.569,"text":"施選主席施明德跟劉昌晉院長差一票我們都怕這個嚇到會把院長、副院長選舉辦法馬上改選舉是選舉二十一罷免雙折所以就非常剛性的院長做得很穩但是不能借然後呢"},{"start":3017.54,"end":3032.197,"text":"每次改選院長有最資深的立委來主持選舉院長所以在韓院長你也知道你選舉我是我主持,我花當選證書給你所以我有前一五來提點這些例子讓你了解"},{"start":3034.171,"end":3055.401,"text":"所以我發檔案證書給歐錫勳前院長,發檔案證書給蔡英文前院長所以老同事,而且我發檔案證書給你,我還跟你講說,我還跟你講一番話在後面所以我今天要講就是說,我還找不到一條法令和憲法"},{"start":3058.965,"end":3086.592,"text":"三途通過,而且經過婚姻程序啦國民黨,我想不到,我怎麼看不到我現在應該先去排隊在前門站排隊排好幾天氣昏苦雨,很像孤城劣質狀人家好不容易站在主席台,又表決搞到衝突一整天你們現在竟然不敢把三途通過的法案"},{"start":3089.798,"end":3118.329,"text":"送到總統府以及行政院這憲法72條你共同違憲,違背了現在現在講什麼呢?現在72條是說越南通俄法律案要送總統府行政院總統接到以後,收到以後,時日內必須公告這很清楚那我不知道各位在民主化這麼久了"},{"start":3120.149,"end":3148.416,"text":"今天我們看到一晚可以徹底毀憲亂政,民進黨在這一屆開始,是不是大家要想一想這個事情?何文綺你雖然霸氣十足,但你仗著武力,免南白過半然後一聲令下,你底下馬虎就衝撞,那把民進黨當成小雞來處理"},{"start":3150.424,"end":3178.209,"text":"我直接告訴你,你不要忘記,你以後還要一顆腫瘡好不好?我今天哪管這樣來?這張藝職員啊張藝職員,要棒打藍白啊你們自己小心一點好,謝謝等一下還沒有,這才引言而已啊好,我們要回來發言官要條例是吧?要回來是吧?好拜託,院長現在"},{"start":3180.198,"end":3193.043,"text":"講這麼客氣,我岂可不順從呢?我們進行不如從命啊我可以贏130分鐘?我可以贏130分鐘?我可以贏130分鐘?我可以贏130分鐘?我可以贏130分鐘?我會把記者會的講話全部"},{"start":3205.413,"end":3230.849,"text":"文字化在我臉書上面,有空就拜讀,有空就拜讀,這一定很有幫助我們今天要談的就是說我們是一個憲法,我們是好治國,這個憲法很重要有關於救護團之類大家想一想,我們這些老人"},{"start":3233.257,"end":3247.169,"text":"我高中的時候曾經參加過揪團縱走縱橫這個大家有走過吧我不知道阿姨老闆在座各位知道揪團什麼時候成立的嗎揪團是在我誕生以後的一年我是民國40年揪團是民國41年成立的那時候的老蔣時代"},{"start":3260.782,"end":3285.33,"text":"指揮者當然是蔣經國嘛他是一個威廉體制下的儀器他成立的時候就成名叫做中國反共新年舊團成起而始現在還是中國舊團反共不見了在反共民國七十八年以後反共都不見了"},{"start":3287.253,"end":3311.087,"text":"那現在變成做違法的民宿,這些東西怎麼救人的原因我大概就很清楚以前是直接立處理,那是國安部、國安委員會然後後來就改為行政院監管但是這個就很清楚的,這是國民黨的負責組織"},{"start":3315.679,"end":3337.786,"text":"當年不當產產條例2016我們提出以後75號就是解嚴解嚴就說那天我們把不當產產申請通過這是我提的歷史的空間都有它一定的意義所以不當產產條例通過以後黨產會就開始追索不當產產的公司"},{"start":3343.84,"end":3367.433,"text":"國民黨複合組織包括共產黨、互聯會等等一大堆那就展開黨黨委員會就開始展開追索那共產黨國民黨記不完,然後高雄行政法院打也贏了所以高雄行政法院打都贏了所以現在是共產黨去釋憲"},{"start":3369.436,"end":3397.438,"text":"所以沒有用,本來就是你不當產產輸給主席交出來的交出來交給不當產產委員會是合法合憲的手段所以各位可以聽我們老人都知道這個歷史這個歷史大家想一想我們要躲出威脅時期"},{"start":3399.187,"end":3417.866,"text":"所以當年我們對於這促進轉變條例,也是我提的它是一個框架式立法,就是追求真相有真相才有和解嘛,然後司法平復"},{"start":3419.398,"end":3439.574,"text":"還有呢?還有就是不予移植,那總是不予移植所以在這樣的情況底下,最後就是黨產條例這四個框架立法,我們今天就談到救火團這個事情既然救火團已經被判為陷,逼走出來,此時此刻救火團是什麼樣態大家想一想"},{"start":3441.041,"end":3456.527,"text":"其實舊團包括明年主任有些都是大家年輕的朋友雖然不管藍綠我們都沒有走過舊團那個時代那舊團後來柯永光來負責所以大家想一想歷史已經翻頁了歷史已經翻頁了歷史已經過去了"},{"start":3472.574,"end":3500.324,"text":"那轉型正義條約通過,轉型正義條約是在說什麼?是國民黨世界以後到解嚴金門罪犯解嚴,那太慢了,不等於你時間所花的事情,不分族群、男女一概來使用那建制黨常常在這裡就是說,任何不當黨產已經釋憲出來了它必須交還,這是屬於負責職,必須交給國家"},{"start":3502.898,"end":3520.809,"text":"那在教育國家的時候,那教育團現在還在頑強抵抗那它產生什麼問題呢?是非法營業它整棟民宿啊,當然嚴重漏水,都非常嚴重漏水啊"},{"start":3522.738,"end":3546.046,"text":"這個東西國家法律上極可放著不處理的在國家法律上當然這些已經走完所有程序,離世界也輸了高薪、最高薪都輸了趕快交出來就好了今天我們看到國民黨,我等一下看國民黨主席講今天來的民眾黨很可惜,黃國昌沒有來"},{"start":3550.609,"end":3555.918,"text":"我頂多久的,我頂多久的,我扣來好不好來等一下,我講重點你電話來了,你剛剛電話響了沒關係,那不重要"},{"start":3566.135,"end":3580.91,"text":"所以我今天要告訴你特別就是說,大家共同時期思考一個事情,就從民國40年開始搞到今天,後來蔣經國當主任,後來搞到葛永光,這是那個未經時期的遺棄,那時候還有反共新黨部,"},{"start":3586.435,"end":3611.664,"text":"還有邵剛辦公室還有王生那種衛生時代全部結束的時候今天應該大家共同的迎向一個新的民主時代所以國民黨還可以提前讓這個集合團可以再延五年我今天要講一個很嚴肅的問題喔假如今天國民黨敢表決這個法案我先算一提醒已經被判違憲的東西違憲的東西已經要再延長"},{"start":3614.125,"end":3627.126,"text":"那就馬上面對一個貪汙智慧條約的圖利你就表現一下你就雞衰壞囉那每一個人都要面對官司你們都要面對官司除非他人至少五年以上所以請國民黨順勢"},{"start":3629.045,"end":3646.612,"text":"然後大家要有憲政觀念要有法治觀念假如國民黨黨這個表決已經被判違憲了已經是違憲了而且要關門了今年年底要結束一頁你要跟他延五年讓他繼續營利這是圖利的個案"},{"start":3649.079,"end":3671.664,"text":"所以這個馬上造成所謂的貪汙自衛條例圖利罪國民黨整黨都應該會到案例審考你們自己想一想我現在告訴大家去年大法庭做重新解釋到底貪汙自衛條例有關貪汙自衛條例實際影響力是實際影響力還是法定直言說"},{"start":3677.162,"end":3697.519,"text":"後來阿扁的時候就被用實質影響器把他抓去關那臨時用法定時限後來現在大庭,這段法院拿大庭同意解釋全部用實質影響器用在每一個公務人員像我們這樣的廣義公務人員還有一個公務人員利益衝突違規法"},{"start":3703.513,"end":3726.425,"text":"不過有一些充足迴避法是怎麼規定的?就是要利益迴避,沒有利益迴避的話,當然會有刑責、會有問題所以當大法庭統一解釋,這個是實質營養力失控的時候,在檢察官在扣住利益充足迴避法你雖然圖利他人或圖利自己,就有不同樣態"},{"start":3729.847,"end":3753.133,"text":"那這個過去新北市一個副議長叫陳文智主席對不起主席會不會有些時間限制因為我們還有好幾個案子就說我覺得因為我們如果救市論事救這個法案已經三個小時過去了28分鐘已經都扯到天保一世了沒有現在再講這個問題請到你們"},{"start":3754.773,"end":3759.28,"text":"趕快要時間,拜託一下趕快一下時間吧,我們這麼多人時間六份圖利,他下飛機的時候馬上被上火了所以我在這裡告訴國民黨,你們自己要小心最危險的"},{"start":3770.137,"end":3786.508,"text":"而且違法的,你趕快表決,決的過程圖利,不是圖利老百姓,你是圖利一家一家民宿所以在這裡提出三頁提前聽不相信的話,你當作我亂講話,沒有關係,胡言亂語"},{"start":3793.22,"end":3800.982,"text":"好謝謝我在這裡告訴各位現在是國民黨熱搜時間總統國民黨即將走進一石不化爐了我們自己要小心後台零五百謝謝總統謝謝本席已經參進告知人謝謝客人的發言謝謝你們可以用我發言的同樣的時間來跟我辯護好這兩倍的時間我都可以接受"},{"start":3821.787,"end":3821.988,"text":"謝謝 臺灣民眾黨請發言好 謝謝主席"},{"start":3833.943,"end":3837.984,"text":"為什麼剛才我說總召就和你黏黏的等一下再來講事實上要陳述一下我們禮拜五本來十點要開會了我們和總召在那邊錄幾波錄到兩點才開會是他要331"},{"start":3853.849,"end":3872.655,"text":"是他的原則551也是他的原則只要在立法院都是他的原則所以呢是他們在協商的時候他就是要照他的命令照他的條款照他的規定才能開會如果沒有照他的話就不能開會我們為什麼一直在裡面跟他開兩三個小時我怕肺癌呀"},{"start":3879.582,"end":3896.295,"text":"記一記一記抽一直抽菸我們坐在那邊跟他協商韓院長你要注意啊得肺癌啊對啊每天協商在那邊一直在抽菸所以說我們就受不了對所以啊所以抽菸就好了你就是要輸嗎不然你就點點你點點人家講話不要插嘴不要插嘴"},{"start":3905.359,"end":3919.745,"text":"要說得好,你總召喚到五四三再說得好,真言說瞎話本來我們在協商,我們希望要講的是議題協商的就是要開會,點點,就是要回應你們的總召人家說一大堆,說的五四三所以呢,就是老飯店,我們尊重"},{"start":3930.45,"end":3934.053,"text":"尊重他 尊重他說30年但是不能說30年我們尊重他就亂講 亂等這樣是他講的算嗎對不對 浪費很多人的時間所以今天我們來這邊協商的時候我們也是一樣針對議題來去講才能達到效果不是在講過去 大家都創新"},{"start":3956.753,"end":3960.535,"text":"大家都要往前走所以我們希望我們今天講的就是我們發展觀光條例第二條還有第17條還有條字二條文"},{"start":3972.982,"end":3996.174,"text":"就是條文修正這邊的重點第一個我們要修法的要求就是在2014年修法要求特定對象就是國軍教師勞工還有青年學生登山客公交人員等我們的住宿場所需要10年完成旅館的登記"},{"start":3998.175,"end":4001.696,"text":"去今年2月4日前但是現在我們還沒有看到所以我們覺得說有這樣子的主要的問題我們希望就是我們要特定的對象還有住宿的需求要滿足我們的旅館還有我們需要的地方還有觀光休閒產業休閒還有我們的政府業者還有我們民眾我們三方"},{"start":4027.207,"end":4035.096,"text":"要怎麼樣達成共識也讓他們可以不要受到影響所以我們是建議像我們當天我們禮拜五協商這個也在我們的協商當中我們是那一天我們要表決的是三個法案"},{"start":4044.767,"end":4047.648,"text":"但是呢 我們科總召不想要開會一直盧 就說一個就好 一個好到最後我們也同意就表決一個法案所以今天來這邊有很多我們要協商的希望我們要針對我們的"},{"start":4061.713,"end":4063.575,"text":"發展觀光條例還有我們的中世代還有其他的針對這樣的議題來去協商達成共識讓全世界全台灣的人站在我們這邊協商的是要講的是我們要怎麼樣"},{"start":4078.53,"end":4082.531,"text":"互相去討論達成共識不是要去講別人的怎麼樣別人怎麼樣過去怎麼樣我覺得真的是浪費很多時間啊真的不管任何人時間都很寶貴每一個人看到電視我們是要來學習我們的立法院怎麼去開會我們立法院怎麼樣去為了國家怎麼訂定一些條款"},{"start":4103.979,"end":4106.681,"text":"福國利民的不是每天都在那邊吵架我們希望拜託民進黨不要為了自己的表現一直在那邊講一堆的我希望是這樣今天也是因為我們總召在司法那邊還在開會所以我們希望我們在這裡真正的把我們每一條每一條"},{"start":4128.1,"end":4155.471,"text":"大家講出來達成共識才不會造成明天大家翻臉或者是大家就在那邊吵在那邊打這樣子我們全世界都不想看到這種畫面以上謝謝謝謝麥玉珍委員發言麥玉珍委員發言我已經很這個院長很可憐又要被罷免又已經得肺癌了很可憐我們現在請傅坤吉總要發言吳思瑤幹事長請準備"},{"start":4158.455,"end":4183.881,"text":"那個院長我們第一題大概剛剛民進黨已經表達立場很清楚所以我們第一題就結束了我們開始進行第二題了好不好第一條沒有共識嘛它從以前是從30年講起現在從民國40年講起了現在從70幾年前開始講起也差不多講完了啦是不是啊院長我們第二條警察人員條例的部分"},{"start":4187.256,"end":4189.278,"text":"再忍耐一下"},{"start":4206.383,"end":4210.125,"text":"我想在這裡啊真的柯總召在立法院啊真的是讓很多的先進的立委啊"},{"start":4235,"end":4247.721,"text":"能夠在這裡啊知道怎麼樣來修煉人生的品格啊要面對什麼樣的這樣的一個刺蝟亡兩的精神教育啊還要啊"},{"start":4249.476,"end":4269.859,"text":"這個心境能夠抱怨手衣在不斷的忍耐中才能夠成長我們特別謝謝柯總召給這麼多的青年孩子來到立法院服務啊能夠給大家有一個磨練的機會不過我還是要回到回到上個禮拜五"},{"start":4271.837,"end":4298.605,"text":"因為上個禮拜五也是以往例啊因為上個禮拜五跟明天禮拜二是一次會但在這一次會裡面呢柯總召還是用慣用魔法幫又拿出來了用威脅會議主席江啟臣說沒有照我的意思的話你看你能不能走上主席台你試試看好"},{"start":4299.574,"end":4321.304,"text":"那江啟臣副院長在被威脅的情況之下我們紅衛首席副書記長極度的強烈的表達柯總召你用在當面恐嚇人那很高興的是當我還沒有講話的時候江啟臣副院長說了一句話"},{"start":4329.144,"end":4358.251,"text":"我希望給海運長做參考他說不然你現在是在欺負我嗎面對柯總召說不然你現在是在欺負我嗎結果惡馬還要惡人騎啊那柯總召馬上就熄火了 點點啊因為他知道江啟臣副院長不吃他這一套他就乖乖就夾著尾巴不講話了接著下來就是說實在是"},{"start":4359.944,"end":4387.393,"text":"國民黨也好民眾黨也好總是覺得說能夠讓會議進行我們再三忍讓都沒有關係所以這位大法師又搞出了一個一個那天簽的協議那個簽的協議所有的文字都要照他講的簽了一個協議出來不然就不能開會然後我們還是基於一個尊重"},{"start":4388.513,"end":4412.918,"text":"因為他年事已高三不時要重塑30年前到現在的事情所以呢我們很不得已啊為了讓立法院的議事能夠順利走下去我們還是很忍讓的又再簽下這個議事內容裡面寫得很清楚這個五須經過"},{"start":4419.309,"end":4431.008,"text":"有協商結論吳旭經過有協商結論我們就可以依照院會的相關規定來處理當然我也沒有想到說"},{"start":4433.12,"end":4451.867,"text":"我們寇總召真的是前驢技窮啊來到這個這麼莊嚴的會場又開始啊把馬戲團的馬戲又拿出來再來講半小時一小時半小時一小時我覺得真的是沒有必要我們哪一題我們就針對那一題去討論就可以了"},{"start":4452.919,"end":4472.965,"text":"至於說剛剛一直不斷的在講到那個什麼救護團的事情我對於柯總召竟然對救護團還有一點感情我們也是表達非常詫異但是我們還是要去思考一下有這麼多的教師會館景光會館英雄館"},{"start":4475.892,"end":4499.606,"text":"還有我們的香客大樓還有這麼多這麼多這麼多需要政府來輔導讓他們能夠走上合法化有這麼多的這些民間的還是相關團體的這些可以居住的會所是不是有足夠的時間"},{"start":4502.088,"end":4530.264,"text":"來給他們做一個把所有的license都能夠齊備所以上一次上一次是延十年那十年如果力有未逮因為事實上現在完成所有手續性的比例並不高所以呢現在我們這次啊大家討論是希望能夠願會大家一起來做決議不然願會處理"},{"start":4531.934,"end":4550.962,"text":"能夠再有一個載營的時間能夠讓大家能夠順利的都能夠合法性的來持續的營業這個是為台灣的觀光還有各方面的團體還有這個宗教也投入一個大家能夠"},{"start":4552.122,"end":4572.305,"text":"彼此互相尊重所以我想院長我今天沒有講半小時除了會議詢問以外我大概就講了五六分鐘希望說我們能夠按照上禮拜五的這個協商的共識今天不要在這裡耗費時間因為畢竟後面的議題還很多好不好謝謝"},{"start":4573.306,"end":4573.847,"text":"謝謝主席、院長、董事長"},{"start":4599.619,"end":4604.461,"text":"在這裏我網美會有提我們《發展觀光條例》的53條在裏面有人主張維持憲法也有人會覺得說我們年久未親的利用者都常常去丟包我認為這個法款要提高"},{"start":4625.754,"end":4632.62,"text":"逆改和有一個會覺得整體需要去處理的行為讓他們覺得你站在這裡很丟包對法官來說他們有一種承擔了他們後來不敢後悔做跟你們法官從以前到現在都一樣這個法官"},{"start":4648.052,"end":4650.814,"text":"如果他不走,跟丟包的時候,對我們台灣人要去祈禱,跟他去丟包,你看最近報紙那一刊電視那一集,是非常可憐的,好在他剛好有錢,沒一直過過的時間,叫天氣不會冷,叫天氣不會暈"},{"start":4667.305,"end":4677.191,"text":"所以說我們希望所有的董事跟我們的主席院長是不是大家協商一下,我覺得這應該是提高他的罰款以上謝謝王委員提案人的發言接下來請吳思耀幹事長發言,發言完畢之後我要進行處理,謝謝"},{"start":4692.239,"end":4719.029,"text":"請院長先不要這麼急切因為為什麼上週五會有這個黨團共事我想因為立法院實在不能夠一再的惡立下去任何一個議案送到院會表決前要經過院長的朝野協商這過去二三十年來都是如此只是非常遺憾這一屆的立法院從上個會期的立法院職權行使法到這個會期的憲法訴訟法"},{"start":4720.629,"end":4743.89,"text":"才化法以及戒避者保護法已經四部法律是完全沒有經過韓國瑜院長召集的朝野協商直接送院會表決這已經是惡例了我們不能讓惡例成為慣例所以說上週五為什麼民進黨團一直認為上週五我們還是要完備程序讓沒有完成韓院長主持的發展觀光條例"},{"start":4747.984,"end":4769.205,"text":"以及警察人員人事條例還是要完備這個程序這是我們的堅持真的不能一錯再錯而為要還原發展觀光條例今天我們在處理的重點是兩個條文一個是53條一個是70之2那我想院長應當也不至於貴人多忘事"},{"start":4770.046,"end":4789.566,"text":"上一次在53條的時候是沒有明確的結論的也就是當時要求交通部針對所謂的電污國家融入損害國家利益過去到底開罰了哪些要求他們做整理"},{"start":4790.347,"end":4810.127,"text":"以及要在立法說明裡頭去進行補充說明我想院長應當都記得所以53條的條文包括剛剛提案人王美惠委員所說的他的整個條文的寫商結論或者是說進入實質的部分還沒有進入所以我們還需要再大家對話"},{"start":4811.448,"end":4840.868,"text":"至於第二個條文就是70之二現在在進行的有關救國團是不是又要被展延五年持續的享有特權下去這個條文在過去上一次的院長還朝野協商是完全沒有進入討論這也是為什麼今天我們坐在這裡嚴肅的準備條文的內容我們要來就條文交換意見大家來把道理說個清楚"},{"start":4841.608,"end":4865.719,"text":"所以我现在针对70之2其实刚刚53条我回应一下王美惠委员她为什么提案要加重罚则针对这些旅馆业 观光业 旅行业 观光游乐业 民宿经营者要给予更高的罚还是因为我们认为发展观光是要越来越有品质"},{"start":4866.579,"end":4885.903,"text":"越來越能夠去保障所有的觀光客不管是本國的國旅或是外國的觀光客給予他們安全的有品質的各項旅遊的服務所以網美會委員他認為要提高這些不法業者的法則所以道理一直延續到70之2條現在針對救國團這些已經給了10年的時間去改善"},{"start":4893.826,"end":4910.084,"text":"剛剛副官級總召說要給人家足夠充分的時間去改善 去合法化請問十年不是一個很長很充足的時間了嗎十年當立委都可以當兩個半的任期了"},{"start":4911.185,"end":4925.452,"text":"為什麼十年其他的旅宿觀光業者他們願意合法去努力的都努力的去完成他的合法登記改善他所有的軟硬體而救國團做不到呢"},{"start":4926.519,"end":4948.287,"text":"所以呢這一條70之二針對特定對象的住宿場所已經給了10年的改善期國民黨的委員要求提案再展延5年要有一個清楚的理由吧現在還沒有講完這些特定對象的住宿場所有118處"},{"start":4952.089,"end":4976.602,"text":"32處已經解除了控管其他的86處有33處有意願持續經營他們也努力當中有持續的去不管是以獲得合法或者是努力爭取合法另外有31處他們是完全沒有辦法改善他就放棄經營因為要確保觀光的品質保障遊客的安全權益"},{"start":4978.263,"end":4993.993,"text":"那現在為什麼立委就要針對就因為他是國民黨的附隨組織嗎救國團就可以再擁有展延的合理理由這怎麼樣要對社會說清楚講明白啊"},{"start":4995.414,"end":5016.319,"text":"發展觀光條例是要越發展越有高品質越安全那現在怎麼越走越回去要為特定的救國團給予他圖利給予他特權然後讓整個觀光的品質走回頭路我們等於通過了這個條文就是告訴這些遊客在台灣"},{"start":5018.274,"end":5026.442,"text":"你來住舊國團這些特定對象的旅宿安全是可以打折的品質是可以打折的這些是可以繼續違法的經營的"},{"start":5029.389,"end":5050.909,"text":"國家有法律要依據啊所以我不懂做到現在為止我沒有聽到提案的委員或是各黨團的委員針對你們72條為什麼認為有合理的理由再予以它展延五年如果這樣沒完沒了啊五年展延五年展延已經給了十年還不夠嗎"},{"start":5052.697,"end":5074.904,"text":"所以說現在非常嚴重的是這些它除了本身它的建築使用執照跟旅館業不相符它的消防、建管、衛生等等的法規、品質沒有辦法達到我們國家法制的要求那這應當是這些沒有辦法改善它就要退出這個經營啊"},{"start":5077.048,"end":5091.346,"text":"否則國家以後出了安全的事情誰來負責提案修法的在野黨委員可以負責嗎這些沒有獲得消防健管衛生審查的但他持續存在持續的非法營運這個責任誰擔哪"},{"start":5095.151,"end":5124.18,"text":"我看到每一次委員在質詢的時候都要求交通部交通部要求觀光署我們要讓達到吸引更多的國際觀光客來我們要全面提升把我們的國家的這個旅遊的這個品牌建立起來台灣就是要品質高品質啊那為什麼我們現在可以容忍這些非法存在的經營業者他持續放任著安全不管衛生不管"},{"start":5125.22,"end":5145.678,"text":"我們做負責任的立法委員今天審法條講到這裡剛剛我沒有聽到提案的國民黨的委員他合理化認為要再展延五年的理由是什麼傅坤祺總召說了因為他覺得十年是不夠長的改善期限大家平平理十年是一個不夠長的改善期限"},{"start":5146.809,"end":5172.22,"text":"天啊 國民黨的覆水組織就可以有這麼大的特權如果十年還沒有辦法改善那我認為他們從頭到尾無心改善啊他就是吃定了國家會繼續放水繼續讓我這樣安全可以打折 品質可以打折我們作為立法委員這種為了特定的人士去圖利 去放寬 去就地合法讓他持續的違法營運我認為我們不應當做這樣的事情"},{"start":5176.229,"end":5204.345,"text":"我們不應當做這樣的事情所以院長這是第一次您朝野協商針對發展觀光條例的七十之二條第一次開始進行內容的討論我認為不要把協商當作過水而已那請提案委員講清楚他的合理理由是什麼好 謝謝我要跟各位黨團幹部報告今天我們從兩點開始開會有八個法律院要研究要討論目前為止第一個案"},{"start":5205.302,"end":5220.217,"text":"我們已經討論了一個半小時那如果照這樣推下去的話我們可能在今天完全沒有辦法處理完所以第一案發展公安條例我現在做以下處理我們就送院會處理休息十分鐘進入第二案"},{"start":5221.038,"end":5240.683,"text":"院長你現在有實質討論嗎?你就過水了又過水了前面半個小時都是柯總召再講粉絲山竟然恐嚇國會議員再展現五年的合理理由是什麼?為什麼國土經濟法要再展現六年?為什麼財政收支方法25年都修改出來?你再演五年"},{"start":5249.923,"end":5265.595,"text":"你還是在丹波保育區啊還是在特定的區啊他還是不能做合法的旅館啊你這是為了救護團特定的這些團體來做解套而已啊為什麼財富法要修25年修不出來你財富法要不要送出來那你財富法要不要送出來那你財富法為什麼到現在還不送出來"},{"start":5271.659,"end":5285.45,"text":"我也是跟你講實際的問題啊台灣好像現在去年的12月10號就已經結束了都已經結束了到現在來三個禮拜還送不出來送不出來稍微沒有這麼大可以扣住法案"},{"start":5782.621,"end":5800.126,"text":"請大家保持安靜我們先介紹一下我們列席的官員,首先我們歡迎內政部劉部長,歡迎您我們警政署的張署長,歡迎你沒看到張署長?警察人員條例沒看到張署長?"},{"start":5805.247,"end":5832.601,"text":"張組長好歡迎您好歡迎您請坐前面消防署的消防署的蕭署長好歡迎您歡迎您歡迎您全序部的司部長歡迎您歡迎您人事行政總署的蘇總蘇董事長歡迎您海巡署的謝副署長歡迎您好歡迎歡迎歡迎好謝謝其他相關單位就謝謝各位列席官員請坐好請坐"},{"start":5835.263,"end":5851.602,"text":"各位黨團幹部,我們現在研究根據1月3日的黨團共識,我們今天討論第二案,請柯建民總召發言請大家保持安靜,該坐下來的人都坐下來,後面好不好?那很可惜副總召不在"},{"start":5853.277,"end":5881.791,"text":"那我在這裡要講一下就是說,剛才我跟韓院長開玩笑,我在那邊怎麼突然停起來了,又去又去協商我說,欸欸,院長不要畏罪潛逃吧他就笑,他說等一下沒有關係,等一下回來我會讓你講一段就是第一個案子,因為第一個案子我還沒講完嘛你讓我講一段,然後再來進入第二段"},{"start":5884.186,"end":5909.004,"text":"不要再倒退嚕了啦拜託啦 將近是倒退嚕我們到底要開到民國幾年啊不是啦 你不要再倒退嚕了嘛我們講句論事我們要進入第二階段為什麼不能夠按照議事規則你可不可以尊重一下別人尊重發言我和我一起尊重我們總統的發言好不好尊重發言尊重大家發言尊重每一個人發言"},{"start":5913.167,"end":5938.186,"text":"就講第二案比什麼要報退第一報退錄我再報退到明年好不好沒有 我是說不是 大家的忍耐是有限度的好不好你講到什麼東西啊好你講到什麼東西啊還不夠啊我說我講半個鐘頭你們講一個鐘頭就沒問題你尊重你要懂得接受啊你一定要讓人家這樣子對不對你一定要讓人家講那麼難聽的話嗎你會講話我不會講話嗎你可以講啊好"},{"start":5942.649,"end":5949.514,"text":"同樣的啊我都告訴你我都不願意講已經有職責了我們職業在後要是你不要我都可以講一個鬆頭啊但是我不願意我要尊重院長尊重所有的人你有尊重別人嗎你有尊重別人嗎你要叫我繼續我們就繼續講啊你不一個小時我陪你啊好不好我就陪你啊對不對你講啊你講我就跟你講你不尊重別人我為什麼要尊重你來"},{"start":5973.318,"end":5981.704,"text":"那不要講話了 我來看一下他一定要一直折磨別人嗎你折磨很好聽嗎 大家就要聆聽嗎怎麼叫折磨 你聽過折磨嗎對不對 本來就是折磨啊你剛才已經講完了你講三十分鐘你還講不出來你三十分鐘還講不到終點跟你三天也講不到終點你回去寫臉書好了啦你臉書寫七萬字好不好你乾脆寫書好了不是這樣子嘛"},{"start":6002.913,"end":6005.273,"text":"我目前覺得都是你王宏威在講話好不好?"},{"start":6016.477,"end":6039.225,"text":"你尊重院長我尊重你就是這樣子關係就是這樣我再重申一遍我們發言的順序現在民進黨柯總統發言完國民黨團現在推派是趙孟靜、劉徐廷委員發言再來請台灣民眾黨發言再請第二輪再請蔡宜瑜書記長這是第一個我們先確定這個次序第二個麻煩柯總統掌握一下時間請其實"},{"start":6042.891,"end":6068.961,"text":"剛才我講一些話,講說過去整個舊人的歷史,整個憲政制度的問題當然我們聽不下去中文總是膩耳的,兩岸是苦苦的那韓院長剛才也答應我說,那等一下,在第二代以前你在中國發言一次,沒有關係,只有啟德發言前的"},{"start":6069.685,"end":6090.816,"text":"那我要澄清一下,我說你發言時分兩部分,一個是歷史的回顧,一個是法案的審查。我說第二案警察人員條例的時候,你一定會回到歷史的回顧,那時候你可以盡量法會,我當然講法是這樣。沒有關係,我都有牽連性嘛,牽連性。第一案當作第二案也無所謂,第二案我要講什麼話,各位沒有辦法制止我嘛,對不對。"},{"start":6091.937,"end":6109.398,"text":"我要講到警察人員條例,講到整個憲政制度問題,講到整個威脅時期,講國民黨現在還是有威脅的餘悉,都是一樣都有牽連性的,我的發言絕對是值得考驗,我要糾正黃國瑜委員"},{"start":6113.769,"end":6129.61,"text":"你說你去寫演書寫七方字,你錯了,我不是寫演書,那件事只有記者打電話給我說,有沒有兩天聲音在批我,我不要出來回應,我是出來回應,然後讓記者問,我講了一個鐘頭"},{"start":6130.922,"end":6147.407,"text":"那我只是把我講的話,畫成文字稿而已,放在臉書上面你在看我的臉書,這幾篇臉書很簡短市長你跟李寬春都沒有安全暗戰啦好啦,你們兩個不要講話我現在再講,剛才我看郭文綺的發言"},{"start":6152.854,"end":6172.826,"text":"請大家注意,乃至於民眾黨發言,讓我不禁想到一個事情,胡文綺的發言,乃至於民眾黨蔓越園的發言,說話都好笑面不紅,全是講反話,那我記得文革的時候四人幫"},{"start":6176.055,"end":6204.265,"text":"那時候毛澤東遇了文化革命來自於南東大躍進中國大陸死了六千萬個人這是人類的浩劫所有文化也摧毀了那這個時候我們那所謂任何民後來有出來定調三七開那江青也被抓起來了要到清晨監獄裡面去所以剛才看傅文綺、龔浩翔"},{"start":6205.245,"end":6229.984,"text":"然後那一陣全部講反話,那些草友想我全部在場的所以有一點像紅衛兵的樣子,就是革命無罪,造寒有理竟然在立法院喉聲上演,為什麼要講這些東西呢?那天我跟胡文綺私下前拜託,然後一直跟他講一個話,就是說我們要建立立法院的文化"},{"start":6232.012,"end":6256.279,"text":"沒有人在打架啦,沒有人在這樣亂搞啦只要說照一支程序來,先協商,協商沒有結論沒有關係,那就照程序大家都可以發言協商有結論,那就發言的程度可以限定,那這個整還效率嘛所以後來簽了,簽了就是說,有關明天要表決的事情,大家也討論五五一"},{"start":6257.983,"end":6264.654,"text":"主條討論依依就這麼簡單那明天這個已經全都簽好壓死了我知道國民黨"},{"start":6266.192,"end":6287.701,"text":"我想他們不敢講,不敢辯護因為不知道從何辯護那相對肚子裡面的東西也是有限的所以你要叫郭文綺講一些合乎正常的話,事實上是眼目求疑的那我在這裡想就是說,既然明天都已經訂好了非常極短的表決時間曹煒祥應該讓大家去講他的話"},{"start":6293.581,"end":6318.067,"text":"包括等一下的職場人員條例也是如此那你剛剛給行政部門講話啊怎麼剛才行政部門還沒講話就叫大家下課喇叭回家院長這一點你要注意一下連行政部門都還沒講到話你就大家欸結束砍酒等你我脫離現場這奇怪了沒有一個常委長可以如此的處理的啊"},{"start":6319.403,"end":6330.431,"text":"所以我要講就是說,整個回顧當天的情形,我們委員都在場,我很善意來跟你講一些話總共在國民黨的要求下,我們簽了五個版本"},{"start":6339.83,"end":6356.375,"text":"在開始談的時候,我跟副總統講說,我們等大家好好講,不要忘記,以後就是這樣,幾個發言人什麼時候,我們都寫定,那政治全部寫定,所以我要寫,寫很清楚嘛,所以說第一個就是說,我們"},{"start":6357.635,"end":6386.232,"text":"星期一、六、五研究到曹雷昌的時候加入了公安條例以及警察人員條例協商後有學長結論留待禮拜五、明天表決沒有學長結論就要找議事成績來處理另外明天有壯士在談判春春委員也在這裡坦白講春春委員我是蠻來欣賞他對於他的理念堅持的人"},{"start":6387.193,"end":6404.705,"text":"因為他還沒當立委的時候,他就談壯世代他也很誠懇的打電話說要來看我那時候腳痛,根本沒有辦法下床我說等我可以下床的時候,我們來談一談後來我在我辦公室跟他談,我很仔細聽他的話,他還帶很多資料"},{"start":6405.706,"end":6433.468,"text":"我說你拿這些,上週都有談過,我都知道中世代的問題所以那天我跟村長委員講說,這樣最簡單,因為民進黨這條是民進黨的嘛,集團是你的集團那條條理也是你們的,但這一題我很respect你對於你自己理念的堅持所以我說,這個東西我們談一談就簽給你了,也不必表決也不必發言"},{"start":6434.289,"end":6456.146,"text":"這就是最壞,所以剩下兩個案子而已嘛兩個案子再經檢一下只剩下三個條件要表決,所以就是這樣的程序嘛然後有關於吳征文委員所說的裝飾袋我那時候寫出來,我剛剛點一個東西就是說因為條件寫55歲以上以下才裝飾袋"},{"start":6457.694,"end":6476.81,"text":"但是像韓院長身體這樣健朗,還在主持院會,還在工作難道是倒露殘兵嗎?克隆昭雖然早開刀拿了拐杖,但是仗義之言,講話坑英有利所以我們應該把這關鍵調整"},{"start":6481.232,"end":6490.085,"text":"不要限制在55歲以上就是說你不管年齡你有工作能力"},{"start":6491.311,"end":6515.689,"text":"有工作意願都算張世代張世代是台灣最有影響力最有競爭力最有工作力的一代當然也有青年世代我們是要世代結合的所以我就建議說是不是照行政院的體育法我是可以上"},{"start":6517.52,"end":6529.929,"text":"有工作能力,像韓院長這樣,我們兩個這樣雖然沒有頭髮,但是頭髮底下的腦袋還很清楚所以人家不控制你啦,你放心啦"},{"start":6531.124,"end":6547.596,"text":"那院長聽得很,好,他都欣然同意嘛,一下就結論完畢嘛然後當然有三步,就是不再設辦公室,因為以後有國發案裡面嘛,不設辦公室"},{"start":6548.917,"end":6555.139,"text":"那還有不設基金,這很重要,不設基金,基金是違法的兩年內修法,所以大家要簽好了,簽好了以後當然"},{"start":6569.486,"end":6595.496,"text":"雖然他提了法案,民眾黨真的是拍板的是黃國昌嘛我說你去跟黃委員談一談,還有什麼意見我們都可以來改那我也覺得說下星期二就明天完全刪除這些法案所以院長你今天充裕的時間,讓大家有合格的言論自由讓大家到尾講清楚,你等一下也可以讓胡宗盛委員"},{"start":6596.836,"end":6624.188,"text":"雖然不在其中範圍內,讓他講壯士在觀念,大家會聞之動容的,OK所以我就這樣提出來,等一下,不必謝謝然後打好了,那寫出來我就不寫出來,就這一張,跟我簽名"},{"start":6625.543,"end":6651.975,"text":"那現在不行,要再打字,我說一概服從,再打出來,就是這張所以我在這裡有這個面貌就是說,在歐盟議員要求底下我把它打字出來,表示尊重但,副委員長當然要跑掉,奇怪,保鮮耶然後歐盟委員說沒有關係,副委員長跑掉了,必須副委員長"},{"start":6655.646,"end":6664.913,"text":"我同意,我們是要保健的,我們是要保健的那是私子的行為,公衛不准審,所以我當然通知他,這人喔"},{"start":6672.058,"end":6697.769,"text":"這樣要誠懇有一天我們都會從這個場域這樣離開的我認識他,他還沒當立委我都認識但是呢,不然怎樣?那他還是老朋友有一言者好可是我們是,你很奇怪,你以前人就很好隨便追國票也會害人,但是那是你的事情來國會又選委,我們安然地參加,你看他也親民黨的,又沒有黨的參加了,又不當議員,又變形了"},{"start":6701.19,"end":6711.139,"text":"這各位不遵從謝謝董事長,我們去交好,謝謝你我這也要寫,你去寫好的好的好,謝謝等一下,不要緊,謝謝掌握時間,謝謝董事長這段影響你沒有經過因為好多人要等你沒有關係反正今天Cowboy,大家好接下來"},{"start":6721.952,"end":6743.689,"text":"黃威就說這個不行,要分局委員說要黃國昌看過才可以好,你就來,我會去改不是總召我改一次我們先談警察的問題要改一次,又說不行,讓我們裁判忍耐總召,我跟妳報告,等一下那個壯士代妳再講壯士代等一下喔然後第五次,你怎麼說的?你怎麼說的?"},{"start":6747.359,"end":6773.824,"text":"你跟人家說是嗎?你跟人家說是嗎?沒有總長我建議說我們到第三案了你剛才就講說讓我講完什麼,你就持續弄,這全國直播你都講了第二段沒有關係,我講半個鐘他們可以講一個鐘頭,我都會忍耐那最後一次再來,好像捷運手人在刁難我們,我都忍下來那增加兩點,我們再改"},{"start":6774.985,"end":6778.272,"text":"我沒獎都請了你,等卡因秋雲都等了你,還未曬?"},{"start":6780.117,"end":6807.25,"text":"好,他躲在議場裡面,傅文綺就坐在另一邊,我把他照相起來要弄好的時候,王文維我說王文維你怎麼變成信差,送郵件的,跑來跑去幹什麼你是一個黨鞭,傅文綺自己來,傅文綺自己來是你們躲起來沒有人了嘛"},{"start":6808.228,"end":6822.616,"text":"所以分歧是一種,大家想想結商要做下來好好談然後分歧倒起來嘛,然後分歧要再啟示黃國昌柯總統那些都不要再說了我要把它講完,我再要把這個認識走,所以我留下來"},{"start":6832.06,"end":6849.935,"text":"因為何其可惜啊 一個大黨編 既然要看黃蕩蕩臉色啊加C加G加EST 都要加C啦 想說以後的這些不說 謝謝啦 最後剛才我把尋問過程還原出來然後呢 我知道國民黨會怎麼樣 都要嘛"},{"start":6851.354,"end":6869.486,"text":"十分鐘的事情也搞到四個鐘頭,一定說都是民進黨在亂,是你們來協商完成的我這樣早上料到這一行,所以開完會以後,我們黨團一排,除了我以外,全會開記者會,把還原事實真相否則黃國昌一定寫演出說民進黨在亂,這個都是他在協商的,問題就是這樣"},{"start":6873.689,"end":6890.663,"text":"你要搞這一套我都很清楚,所以全部人也瘋死,就說事實的呈現在這裡今天我這樣講的就是說,我們大家要協商的時候要協商,要有誠意我們終極目標就是要把立法院變成一個可以論證的地方,不是打架的地方"},{"start":6892.865,"end":6919.564,"text":"建立立法案 重塑立法案的新文化雖然被韓院長乃至於在柯文哲教的律師長還有藝術組組長亂講一通既然三途共同法案一個召委說不能送書就不能送書這是徹底違法我想監察院知道如何去彈劾好那以上就是說我謝了一百多次了柯總長謝謝"},{"start":6921.585,"end":6942.458,"text":"我跟妳講喔,多謝必有詐,多謝必有詐。你看我眼睛,我看妳眼睛就不想要再謝謝了。關起某些人間所哉,所以喔,我們黨也要想過的。謝謝柯總統,謝謝。黨中的誠意我必須接受,謝謝。"},{"start":6949.682,"end":6958.532,"text":"好,謝謝,根據黨團報告,現在國民黨團推派劉許廷維來索命,請問黨團有沒有意見?沒有,請劉許廷維,請發言好,謝謝主席"},{"start":6964.999,"end":6982.21,"text":"剛剛柯總召講了二十五分鐘這個當然是朝野協商主席當然會希望力求圓滿你可以講我身上的問題這個我們理解但本席要講的就是說我們還是希望回到議題的討論我只要五分鐘就好因為案子很多我們要提序主席我們也要兼顧立法院的議事效率這是我的建議"},{"start":6983.331,"end":7004.904,"text":"好 那今天就談警察人事條例的部分這當然就是談警察的退休金跟待遇的部分那麼在2024的6月13號在司法委員會做這個相關法案審查的詢答的時候其實我在質詢的時候就有詢問過警政跟消防署的署長這個警察跟警消啊 包含我們的海巡弟兄在內他在任職的工作上的性質是不是跟一般的公務員有所不同"},{"start":7005.584,"end":7020.596,"text":"那麼當初警政署的署長跟消防署的署長都直接坦率的承認確實不同怎麼樣說不同呢這個人事制度啊勞動條件勞動安全啊等等還有警消危勞早退等等的這些問題強度也不一樣"},{"start":7020.976,"end":7042.723,"text":"那更重要的還有行政程序法第19條第二項講行政機關執行勤務時得向無隸屬關係的其他機關請求協處很多很多的行政機關就用這一條來要求我們的警消弟兄跟同仁來協助各個機關所以各方各面來講警消也好海巡也好他在職務上的特殊性本來就跟一般的公務人員有所不同那麼談風險"},{"start":7043.843,"end":7068.402,"text":"最近7年的統計警察因公死亡65人因公受傷6037人全體軍公教因公死亡數229人警察就佔全體的28%我們如果把消防人員加計進去這個比例會更高警察的人數佔全國軍公教8%卻有高達28%的因公死亡比例這就表示這個職業的風險跟一般的公教確有不同"},{"start":7069.062,"end":7089.83,"text":"既然人事制度工作內容都製成體系有所不同當然有本質上的一個差異既然有本質上的差異卻使用相同的退休制度它其實是一個齊頭式的平等假平等會造成真不公因此我們去提案修正警察人事條例希望爭取更好的退休待遇的關鍵就是應該把它改成所謂立足點的一個平等"},{"start":7090.39,"end":7107.587,"text":"那麼內容上我們針對了這個最低所得替代率年增率跟最高所得替代率都做了調整這樣子的調整的原因是因為每一次討論年金改革的時候大家都把關鍵跟焦點放在最高替代率但是事實上景蕭海巡等等大部分是為了所得替代率"},{"start":7108.248,"end":7133.159,"text":"真的能夠達到所得替代率天花板的人並沒有那麼多所以我們這次版本的修正其實是調高年增率跟最低替代率的這樣最低所得替代率的這樣一個數字目標是為了照顧多一點點的基層人力他不見得有辦法扶持滿到40年或者是35、6年這樣子的一個高度但是也可以享有更好的退休待遇所以這樣子的一個版本修正過後不管是基層的、年輕的、資深的"},{"start":7134.079,"end":7160.009,"text":"也不只是已經退休的警消海巡人員包含代退的以及相對現在這個相對在職的未來都可以享有更好的退休待遇我們是希望可以站在不同工作的考量建立立足點平等的機制的角度來合理的修正這個警察人員條例希望讓好的退休待遇能夠鼓勵更多的人不管是服務久一點也好或者是勇於加入"},{"start":7160.529,"end":7177.666,"text":"警消海巡的行列成為打擊犯罪的英雄也好要有好的待遇才有留得住好的人才才能讓國家長治久安所以我們希望大家可以好好的支持這樣子的一個修法照顧退休的警消人員之外也照顧現職跟相對年輕的警消人員以上 謝謝"},{"start":7178.507,"end":7187.86,"text":"好 接下來請台灣民眾黨發言蔡宜瑜署長請準備稍微等一下 稍微等一下 稍微等一下先我講完 因為你講的話很久台灣民眾黨請發言幹事長 沒有"},{"start":7195.441,"end":7213.095,"text":"不要急嘛蔡書長發言完我要請全序部部長發言好不好這一定要這樣子那台灣民眾黨請不要被干擾謝謝主席謝謝謝謝太好了主席有規定大家就要遵守好我們今天我們關於就是警察人員的"},{"start":7214.095,"end":7217.678,"text":"條例 我們其他的背景我們就不講了 我們修法的建議第一 退休替代率的比照國軍所服務的年資計算滿15年替代率45%每增一年增加2% 最高90%"},{"start":7232.851,"end":7240.583,"text":"上限標準與國金一致 避免不公平的待遇新增退休的待遇規定 計算標準我們這邊是有退休警察待遇 因與現職同等級的人員掛鉤"},{"start":7249.035,"end":7269.02,"text":"隨心之調整 明定付表 增加退休的替代債率的對照表 保障 透明化我們修正的理由希望就是高風險需要高保障 還有景消海巡性的特殊工作比較高風險"},{"start":7270.76,"end":7276.485,"text":"希望提供因應的推修的保障第二以國軍一致性是參考國軍的模式確保公平與合理性第三回應現實的需求應對兩岸的緊張戰爭的風險等國安的挑戰我們希望修法能夠提升我們的警消海巡的保障就是"},{"start":7295.039,"end":7298.962,"text":"回應高風險的工作需求並以國金退休的那個制度要一致符合公平原則我們希望就是不要說千辛萬苦領的是一千兩千的千辛但是萬苦這樣子的話對我們的警校也好警察也好海巡也好是很不公平所以我們希望說要一致以上報告 謝謝"},{"start":7322.236,"end":7325.498,"text":"警消是高風險的工作但是跟軍職還是有本職上的不同軍人是24小時在營區基本上在營區的時候"},{"start":7343.251,"end":7370.803,"text":"在某種程度也是限制了他很多上的一些自由他的移動自由或者他的居住的自由所以君子當時在設計上用90%主要也是這樣還有君子他的服役期間相對是比較短比較短那也很容易讓君子他一旦沒有升上去基本上他就是退休讓很多君子的他的狀況就是說他的服役期間不長"},{"start":7372.463,"end":7397.43,"text":"但是他可能當到了少校、中校沒有機會再往上去就變得他被退休了退休如果所得替代率太低的話因為他的服役年限不夠所得替代率如果低的話基本上這件事情對君子是相對不公平的所以在君子當時的設計是基於這樣的關係所以本質上跟公務員就不一樣"},{"start":7398.03,"end":7427.575,"text":"好那我們回到公務員公務員的部分當然警消海巡他是屬於比較危險的工作那也是因為在危險的一個工作所以除了他有危險的家籍之外我們過去內政部我們警政署消防署也都有針對勤務這個勤務的家籍事實上也有很高事實上這樣的增加有一個重點就是說我們要讓在現值現在在福利"},{"start":7427.935,"end":7445.467,"text":"服務的公務員他們有更好的一個待遇因為他們想要留下來我們是希望好的人才繼續留在現職上繼續可以繼續做服務而不是說一直期待說他們退休然後領得好"},{"start":7446.147,"end":7468.718,"text":"當然退休領得好也是一個要件但是我們更期待的就是說他可以在工作崗位上好好的表現所以我們現在去把所得替代率貿然的提高不管是國民黨現在講80%還是剛剛我聽蔓玉珍是講90%那如果你要把它提高到這樣那馬上要面對一個可能就是大退休潮"},{"start":7470.459,"end":7478.882,"text":"可能就是很多現在我們縣執的這些警察人員或者是消防人員,他們就說我退休,我年齡90%我退休就不要給父母了那這樣是好的事情嗎?我們知道這幾年事實上很多警校不管在招生的時候因為少子化"},{"start":7490.746,"end":7514.439,"text":"基本上他們在招生已經有一個困難性那你現在如果因為這樣制度的改變然後又馬上面臨了一個大退休潮的話這樣一個制度的改變是好的嗎然後再者我要再去強調就是說如果我們抓80%如果抓80%那公教大概如果這樣的話大概是在"},{"start":7516.46,"end":7536.258,"text":"警監室的時候跟所謂公務員在實質等的一個狀況那如果以軍事觀就是上校的狀況變成說警察在這個階段退休的他領的如果以80%還沒有算到90%警察就領到大概8萬4那公教領6萬9軍職到了上校才領8萬2"},{"start":7543.605,"end":7549.278,"text":"就是當這一階大家去做一個比較事實上還是會有產生不公平"},{"start":7551.514,"end":7573.586,"text":"這個工作之間就不公平尤其你反映到君子的這一塊君子我們已經有拉了可是君子他的服役他的服役的一個時間點就是比較短你這樣逼高他會覺得你做到上校你做到上校結果你退休你領的八萬二比警監室退休以抓八十帕來說你還要更久"},{"start":7575.489,"end":7598.491,"text":"所以我也覺得在制度的設計上大家都希望說我們的公務員我們的警察他們有更好的一個待遇可是總之制度的設計我們必須思考的更加完善所以我還是主張說大家可以好好的去想我們應該讓現職的公務人員像現在我們現職的今年有加薪就退休的我們也是會把它調整"},{"start":7599.768,"end":7617.791,"text":"而且我們希望未來還可以用制度化的一個調整就是說退休的他後面隨著物價指數他也有在調整那不要去更動制度因為現在一更動制度的話你更動了警消那未來其他公務員呢"},{"start":7619.042,"end":7635.81,"text":"有沒有需要更動他們如果真的有來反應要更動好那就回到我剛剛講的君子的部分同樣一個位階的時候領的比較少那君子是比較比較不辛苦嗎他們也是很辛苦啊"},{"start":7637.027,"end":7658.588,"text":"這是第一個 還有第二個我覺得因為剛剛我們總召用了很多的時間在還原一些事情事實上我也想跟院長建議啦所以院長你主持協商我希望是一個有效的協商就是比如說在剛剛在處理這個觀光發展條例的時候我們提案的網美會委員有提出一個意見希望可以把罰則提高"},{"start":7659.369,"end":7686.257,"text":"他有發言 對 他有發言他講的這一個 他也無關立場他只是說 為了讓未來的觀光業者他們應該要警惕 不可以說人家出事了錢都收了 這人家丟包所以你過去發了心情 沒感覺他希望大家加工可是院長你後來也沒有針對他發言後再看下說大家能不能就這個條文是否可以接受提案人的想法"},{"start":7688.313,"end":7704.642,"text":"院長你只是讓我們這樣亂的講完然後你就說休息我是覺得說這樣的協商變成說我們在這裡只是在跑形式我實在覺得做不出來我們現在說的我們都可以就事認識如果是條文本身有沒有調整的空間"},{"start":7705.803,"end":7717.051,"text":"我覺得院長你可以協助我們至少大家橫屏抓個調整空間如果真的講的都是各說各話國民黨講國民黨講民眾黨講民眾黨你覺得沒有空間那你當然說好那這一條我們就留待院會處理可是剛剛如果說53條之一我們也會講有什麼不對為什麼不嘗試的處理看看"},{"start":7730.982,"end":7756.675,"text":"所以我也覺得說,院長在協商的時候,我們讓他這個協商更有效能啦我們不是只要協商過年,我們這個協商要有作用啦,好不好?謝謝蔡宇書記長,謝謝你,我簡單回覆一下蔡宇書記長的意思就是說,不要為協商而協商最後好像感覺只是一個過場其實我很希望能夠達成共識我連剛才達成共識的文稿都寫好了"},{"start":7757.395,"end":7779.662,"text":"可是實在上各位剛才的發言不要說情緒跟氣氛之外連內容都沒有辦法使得我不得不在今天八個議案裡面我要做一些時間上跟這個決策上的處理否則我們就完全沒有效率了我們第一個案就討論快一個半小時了現在第二案又是快一個多小時了我們後面還有六個案在等"},{"start":7780.222,"end":7808.121,"text":"所以我要跟蔡宇书长讲我的想法跟你一样我很希望大家能够跟行政部门一起能讨论出来达成共识真的不行那只能送院会那是不得已的手段我很不喜欢用这个手段而且你看我每次用我都很为难就说这个案子我们就留在院会我都不太愿意讲这个话我特别跟你报告跟大家报告一下接下来我们请全序部的我们部长请您表达您的意见非常重要请"},{"start":7809.668,"end":7835.19,"text":"主席 各位委員謝謝主席在這個表定明天要表決之前讓主管機關之一全區部有機會在這裡跟大家就事實跟數據跟大家做一個充分的一個說明我想這個案子大概經過委員會的一讀會還有後面的一個協商的過程本部的立場曾經兩度提出書面意見也都表示不贊成這個修法"},{"start":7835.931,"end":7864.438,"text":"那這個修法事實上影響的不僅僅是牽涉現職跟已退的警察人員其實它更會影響到人數超過警職人員大概五倍多的廣大的現職跟已退休的其他公務人員跟教育人員那這個案子不僅僅是牽涉退府基金的財務問題政府支出的問題其實對全部 全區部來講更重要它是牽涉到"},{"start":7866.035,"end":7888.776,"text":"非常嚴重將產生整個退府制度會對有不公平問題產生的憲法平等原則這個案子其實大家都知道現在我們用的大概理由有兩個一個是說因為限職為老所以因此退休所得替代要增高一個是因為軍人有90%所以要比照90%"},{"start":7890.441,"end":7909.253,"text":"那部裡面很負責任跟大家分析這兩個意見其實我們都不認為是應該要支持我簡單的說第一個限職工作危老剛剛有聞一條我們在限職的待遇跟福利制度上都已經有特別的對待那退休就沒有危老的事實所以限職危老是不是適合用來延伸說退休還要再做危老這個其實是一個邏輯的問題"},{"start":7917.967,"end":7945.507,"text":"第二個軍人的工作跟警察的工作當然都是微老但是這兩者呢事實上還是有一點點不太一樣那包括剛剛有提到軍人的服役特性其實跟警察是不一樣的所以兩個也不適合呢完全來做比照那這個法一旦通過以後其實很簡單講就創造一個很大的差距以80%的35年年資這個版本來看"},{"start":7946.67,"end":7968.017,"text":"不管是未來要退休的或者已退休的因為這個法包括要把已退休要重新回來算大概來就會有80%馬上就變80%那其他的公務人員呢一直按照我們的這個降降降到118年會是60%所以就是產生20%的差距那這20%差距是所得替代率"},{"start":7968.905,"end":7986.662,"text":"可是最重要還是要回到到底錢差多少我想我先大概就這樣一個說明那以下我大概就分幾個面向很快的跟大家報告部裡面的看法第一個面向是這個法如果通過它絕對是對退府制度公平性產生最嚴重的影響"},{"start":7987.984,"end":8005.496,"text":"在退伏制度裡面最在意的本部最在意的是公平性這公平性意思是說大家同樣參與這個基金那大家繳一樣的錢根據相同標準去繳錢也繳一樣的費率那怎麼會說有一警察人員退休的時候他給付"},{"start":8006.437,"end":8026.103,"text":"就要比一般的公務員高除非警察人員自己制成一套體系重新計算過他所有就像軍人一樣有自己一套基金可是目前不是 以前也不是所以現在硬拉成90% 80%這個真的是嚴重的破壞整個退府制度跟退府制度最在意的"},{"start":8026.743,"end":8048.157,"text":"要平等對待所有的參與者這是一個憲法平等原則的一個問題本部最在意這個事情我覺得這是一個第一個面向那第二個面向我跟大家報告說真的80%以後他會創造出一個幾乎所有文官沒有辦法接受退休所得的差距這退休所得差距就是讀後呢緊職工作到難以想像"},{"start":8049.4,"end":8067.115,"text":"我用一個數字跟大家報告因為大部分的警察人員退休的時候就基層員警大概都會到525的縫點大概占八成那這個代表就基層的警察啦這525的縫點呢根據現在這個修法他們月退休所得的上限我們估算過如果用113年就去年大概月退休所的上限會是74544塊那如果今年"},{"start":8078.291,"end":8103.653,"text":"再調薪因為他會這樣去算就會增加到七萬六千七百八十塊這個數字大概還比常務次長、司處長都還高一點點更何況十一職等以下的所有公務員員都比他低所有高中以下的老師都比他低大學裡面的教授也比他低"},{"start":8105.114,"end":8127.865,"text":"我想這是一個用事實算出來的一個數據那包括我們在地方政府服務的所有的同仁因為我們地方政府的職等很少超過12職等的也都不會比他高那更何況呢同樣有其他危老的同仁譬如說監守管理員醫務人員他就適用其他的公務人員制度他不會像警察一樣"},{"start":8129.509,"end":8152.018,"text":"這個法律不會處理這些事情我們還有很多譬如像說你從事保護性社工各式各樣的通通是用一般公務人員的概念他不會處理這個事情所以我只是跟各位報告就是說這一個根據這個80%的一個算最上限的算法他真的會衝擊所有的台灣的公務人員文官的信念就怎麼會是"},{"start":8153.427,"end":8173.407,"text":"退休所的差距竟然會到這麼大20%代表這是一個數字的轉過來是一個數字的問題那事實上目前我們講現況現況的大概是八成左右的基層員就是525的鳳兒退休的人其實他拿的相當於就是公務人員八指等的"},{"start":8175.327,"end":8196.378,"text":"那個薪水那這樣轉換過來呢他的退休金都是一樣因為我們要比較不一樣嘛所以那個退休所得上大家都一樣所以兩個本來就差了大概快八千塊也就是說525奉典的比八子等人大概就差了八千塊用現在的這個數字去算那所以呢即使都不調整假設大家都不調這個法"},{"start":8198.384,"end":8210.996,"text":"2024年所有的警職人員平均大概95%以上大概實質的退休所得大概是5萬塊以上以去年新退休的大概是5.9萬"},{"start":8213.308,"end":8232.904,"text":"那我是跟他報告講是說這樣一個數字如果根據剛剛在調整假設退休再調整那你可以想像未來一個退休警察人員基層的退休警察我不是講那個更高階的警官大概年所得的上限很可能會到92萬元大家理解90萬已經超過我們的退休金的免稅所得的今年發布的86萬元"},{"start":8240.717,"end":8258.816,"text":"那他還比民間的薪資不管是月薪資或者是經常薪資都還高我這把這個事我這除非必須要很負責任跟各位報告這些數據那第三個面向是他真的也會衝擊警力的穩定性為什麼因為根據這個新的制度算出來七萬多塊這個事情他就相當於限制的"},{"start":8264.403,"end":8275.074,"text":"525就警政事階月薪我這月薪是指他的用他的525奉典加專業家籍再加警勤家籍大概這樣等於大概九成那想想看我如果退休的時候可以拿九成"},{"start":8281.181,"end":8306.03,"text":"我這個對警力的衝擊會有維持會有周圍通道我想這是也是大家去思考一個問題第四個我要講限職的工作危險確實絕對是危險可是我們在現在的退府制度上跟限職待遇上都對警察人有特別的對待譬如說限職的退府制度警察人員的自願退休的那個那個稅數還有他可以啟資月退休的稅數都"},{"start":8307.421,"end":8319.736,"text":"比公務員早可以大概找到法律上可以容許到10歲但是每個人的狀況不太一樣啦那可能在10歲以下可以可是這不是公務員有的那縣子的待遇裡面呢我們也了解呢其實"},{"start":8322.474,"end":8348.517,"text":"這個部分是人總管的通常我們大概知道是現況的一個狀況平均警察的月所得大概是公務員的多出10%那如果最高的那個警員以下的那個比例是更高我們必須坦白跟大家這樣一個保限值那更何況警察福利大概公務員員有些是沒有警察是有的那回過頭來說警察危老限職工作危老當然是危老"},{"start":8349.468,"end":8372.661,"text":"那危老以後是不是一定要退休以後再給他一個特別對待因為他已經退休就沒有危老的事實了那會不會因為他在在職的時候有危老健康會比較大高風險所以我們應該給他特別對待可事實上也不是這樣子根據警政署自己發布的資料警察人員退休警察人員平均死亡年齡大概2022年的時候是77.93歲"},{"start":8374.793,"end":8400.254,"text":"就跟國人20歲以上沒有什麼太大差別跟一般的公務員沒有什麼太大差別也就是說退休以後健康平均狀況是沒有什麼太大差別所以這個是非常就是77.93歲所以我只是把這些事實跟各位做一個報告最後第五個面向警職是不是跟君職適合比"},{"start":8401.565,"end":8410.932,"text":"我想院長也在君子待過那個工作情境狀況我就不說可是必須坦白這樣講我們的警職的月薪就相對於君子的那個對應來講是高於君子的你去看一個上位拿到錢可能不見得比525的還要高那接下來警職呢君子又一級短"},{"start":8430.987,"end":8458.255,"text":"因為很少君子可以超過30年的啦因為他有最大服役年限不升上去就要被強迫退休嘛那警職平均基層的警察大概最近這幾年以前也差不多大概都已經快接近到可以服役到35年的年資所以結論是這樣子如果你把一個基層我還是講525那個最多人對照理論上他應該對照君子的可能是一個上位或少校"},{"start":8460.062,"end":8488.209,"text":"那事實上結論是什麼他拿的錢是比那個君子高的蠻多的那我想這裡我就不做敘述我想這個君子的一個薪水我覺得我不想在這裡談這樣一個議題那第六個最後結論這個最後我才談到對基金的影響那當然因為你提高以後一定會對大家使用同一套基金那有基金用慶的年度"},{"start":8489.619,"end":8509.094,"text":"根據精算他就會提早兩年那這兩年怎麼產生的因為用五十年來精算一方面我們本來年改的時候只要是節省了錢譬如像說總的替代率下降因為你優存減少了救治減少這個錢我們都回撥給這個基金預注那五十年裡面就大概少了大概1093億元"},{"start":8512.588,"end":8535.968,"text":"那可是接下來還有另外一個因為你所得替代增加了所以那個基金新制的人事實上錢就要增加比以前更加那這個大概有六百六十八億元所以加起來大概一千七百億你可以講說這大概是五十年看起來好像不是很大五十年基礎可是他確實是對基金來講就是提早兩年那其他人呢要幫忙負擔這個事情那缺口怎麼辦那現在修法的缺口是由政府來撥補"},{"start":8540.779,"end":8551.85,"text":"那政府來做不懂這涉及到預算法因為畢竟這不是行政部門的提案我想這是另外一個story可是這個修法裡面也沒有談說那個一千億到底怎麼辦因為修法談得上六百多億那麼一千億如果"},{"start":8559.537,"end":8581.44,"text":"幾乎都是要政府支出啦因為那是優存減少跟這個救治本來就各級政府要負擔這個事情所以這個部分法律也沒有談這個事情那最後一點呢退孫所得真的不應該跟限職人員的待遇調整而調整這是幾乎大部分主要國家的同理為什麼因為限職人員"},{"start":8582.501,"end":8598.779,"text":"薪水要不要調整有很多很多的因素不應該只有考慮呢譬如像說CPI因為退休人員本來最重要是要維持他的實質購買利益不要減少太多所以我們現在本來就有一個機制5%我們就會調整他的一個退休所得"},{"start":8599.359,"end":8622.326,"text":"這是世界上幾乎大部分的退休制度都會走一個方式可是限職人員不應該只考慮CPI我可能因為工作辛苦表現好什麼政府本來就有一些其他考量因素不會只用CPI所以不應該把這兩個掛在一起這個修法也談到這個我們認為維持限制還是應該比較正確的方式因為限職的公務人員就是這樣走的"},{"start":8623.644,"end":8645.398,"text":"我想我以上大概把部裡面的意見做一個很充分的說明我想也謝謝主席給我比較長的時間來談這件事最後我要知道說依照黨團的協商決議這個案子明天就是要表決所以讓我再做一點點感性的陳述今年的520我是第三次進到政府部門服務"},{"start":8646.621,"end":8669.487,"text":"我想我對台灣的文官制度跟政府的體系各式各樣的我大概有相當程度的了解在我擔任前一個工作人事長任內我想我大概是歷任人事長裡面對限職警察人員的待遇跟福利最支持的一個人事長那我現在轉到全區部來了那這個涉及的不是限職人員是退休"},{"start":8670.529,"end":8693.516,"text":"那我覺得退休的部分我就必須非常非常精準講全區部主管的是退休法律制度跟基金我必須要對所有的公務人員負有守護每一個公務人員在這個基金裡面被平等對待的憲法的平等的一個責任也因此我必須今天謝謝有這個機會讓我很清楚的說明這個法按照這個方式通過"},{"start":8694.994,"end":8716.173,"text":"它有很嚴重很嚴重的後果不然我就是對不起所有全體的公務人員不是只有警察人員因為大家都是一個文官體系的一個人今天呢如果我剛剛提過其他有比警察人員超過人數超過五倍的已經退休或者是現職的公務人員跟教育人員他們如果也學這一套"},{"start":8718.205,"end":8728.332,"text":"還好他們大部分我們的公務員不太會做這樣一個事情他們如果說我們來說服立委然後幫我們提案對全區委員即使他說他增加1%就是單獨調到1%部裡面立場都不會贊成"},{"start":8734.076,"end":8749.544,"text":"因為這就是違反一個退府制度最需要的大家平等對待的一個原則那我想我520在進來以後之前呢大院的委員們經常告訴我們說行政部門你們在做決策的時候不要用政治凌駕於專業"},{"start":8751.055,"end":8774.402,"text":"那我想部裡面非常非常遵守這個原則那我今天提出我們部裡面的專業的意見那最後我還是要講一次修法所持的兩個理由就是說因為危老或者應該比照軍人所以呢這兩個理由部裡面的分析結果我認為實在是沒有辦法支持因為這兩個理由不足以支持再給退休給付這個部分"},{"start":8775.602,"end":8799.551,"text":"這麼高的一個特別的對待修法結果就會破壞憲法的平等原則最後我想談一個這個法我知道明天如果通過會碰到一個問題就是我們必須要開始做後續的行政作業程序這個行政作業程序是我要重新審核三萬多人的退休警察的退休金那本部只有一個科"},{"start":8801.708,"end":8830.034,"text":"大家知道我們中央政府一個科可能不到四個人所以它需要一段的作業時間那我們會比較建議事實上今天也大概跟內政部的同仁有交換過這個意見這個事情因為我們修的是警察人員人事條例所以這後續的工作我們會建議是由內政部來接受就是說那個審核的事情我們一定會提供很多一個協助謝謝只是最後還要提醒一個事情謝謝"},{"start":8830.714,"end":8853.941,"text":"因為根據法律重新計算的標準是要限職的待遇限職的待遇就是我們現在是114年了那所以今年又有一個調薪案呢還不確定如果今年調薪案是確定的話那這一定要等調薪案以後呢通過我們才能夠往下走這個計算我想跟各位報告好謝謝你老師"},{"start":8860.868,"end":8877.495,"text":"好 謝謝講了才有道理沒有問題我們到行政部門發言一下不要急我們行政部門來了沒關係沒關係 王委員謝謝你等一下請聽我講話好不好你請我要人事處書人事長請書人事長請"},{"start":8889.116,"end":8907.29,"text":"不好意思請把時間掌握院長各位委員大家午安我想我的立場跟前區部司部長的立場都一樣因為我們必須要顧慮到一個很重要的絕對公平跟相對公平的問題一個制度好不容易建議剛才大家有提到危老的問題這是事實"},{"start":8909.432,"end":8922.607,"text":"所以過去這幾年從市部長任內一直到我這裡我們對警察人員的這些相關能力、大義我們都給予相當的支持我想這是一個事實大家可以去打聽然後"},{"start":8924.629,"end":8941.041,"text":"圍繞的事情是他任內當他退休的時候應該就沒有圍繞這個議題所以我們在退休的大意方面坦白講剛才市部長也講得很清楚如果調到80%的時候的替代率他的"},{"start":8941.701,"end":8967.146,"text":"戴毅甚至會跟我們常任文官的常務次長一樣這樣對大部分的常任文官我覺得是一種士氣的打擊整個國家的努力進步應該警察扮演很重要的角色金人也很重要可是大家不要忽略掉大部分公務人員大家默默的在為這個國家努力不能抹煞他們的努力這一點大家都沒有去把那個"},{"start":8968.486,"end":8990.272,"text":"實際的情況讓大家知道我今天有這個責任我必須要利用這個場合感謝所有公務人員過去幾十年來默默的為國家努力所以不能讓他們感覺相對的不公平那警察部分拉上來剛才大家也論述過了驚人的服役時間短無形中"},{"start":8991.272,"end":9020.221,"text":"我第一陣子在修建的結果警察他們也很辛勞結果他們退休裡面因為他的年資比較長所以他領的退休碰跟金人的部分又拉上來就變成製造另外一種不公平我覺得好不容易一個安定的一個情況我必須要幫所有默默為國家努力的公務人員講這一句話而且這裡面還有剛才大家提到的我要保守勒我在"},{"start":9021.652,"end":9034.777,"text":"監守這些介護人力我這個空勤總隊我還有很多默默在為國家執行公權力的過程中他們有風險的這些人難道他們沒有風險嗎?還是有啊?好 謝謝"},{"start":9040.75,"end":9049.837,"text":"謝謝各位剛剛所提到的部分內政部站在警察人員人事條例裡面的主要的這個主管機關的立場我們大概有幾點要跟各位委員來報告第一個呢我們現在要照顧的是以現在在服勤的這個警察人員為主"},{"start":9058.363,"end":9076.118,"text":"所以有關退休的退府事項的話呢根據我們的這個憲法增修條文那是全序部的執掌那剛剛全序部長已經跟大家說明過那我想我們站在現在內政部主管有關於限職的警消的部分呢包括這個提高警勤加急啦等等這些有15項我們在歷次的協商裡面呢"},{"start":9078.18,"end":9091.204,"text":"已經跟大家報告過我就不再贅述但是我們知道會產生的問題就是說警察人員退休所得替代率如果修高變成是不管是90%或是80%的時候確實會產生人員結構跟不同世代上面的差異我先從退職人數的部分跟大家報告一下現在我手頭上的資料就是現職的警察人數是68,120人"},{"start":9107.188,"end":9124.341,"text":"那如果未來按照這個剛剛我們才拿到不好意思所以這個有關數據只能是個大約數就是在36年以上的所得替代比率的話我們大概馬上去算出來目前的這個要領到80%以上的人數是74747人"},{"start":9133.768,"end":9154.503,"text":"那再來就是說我想在座有相當多的曾經擔任過縣市議會的議員都知道在哪裡退休就在那個地方的縣市政府領退休金所以我們也去稍微很快去調出來譬如說以去年3月份來看中央跟地方警察"},{"start":9156.924,"end":9173.057,"text":"從中央裡面領退休金的警察人數是7千多那我們中央要付出的退休金額救治的退休金額是3億8千多萬那如果在地方的話呢退休人數大約是3倍到4倍有2萬3千多總共要領的是12億多"},{"start":9175.299,"end":9194.051,"text":"那如果未來按照這樣提升到80%的時候呢不只是衝擊到中央政府的預算地方政府的預算也會有影響到只是我們沒有細算這跟大家報告的部分然後再來我所報告的部分就是說限職的警察的總數是68120的狀況之下"},{"start":9196.613,"end":9199.794,"text":"40歲以下的警察所佔的比率是35,122人是51.6%也就是說現在的警察不管因為少子化或是為了警勤制度跟著改換的狀況之下他們要參加所謂的退休警察這些制度裡面所納的這個金額"},{"start":9217.381,"end":9235.843,"text":"跟現在要退休警察越來越多的狀況之下恐怕會產生財務上面的結構的問題而且有世代差距剛剛那個權序部的這個部長有特別提到就是如果退休所得替代率往上調整的時候會造成員警退休跟現職的興奉差異縮小"},{"start":9237.825,"end":9249.699,"text":"那這個部分一定會造成另外一個短期內會有大幅離退因為他會覺得說他離退以後所領的薪水跟現在很辛苦在從事正職工作的時候差別不大那這個真的會衝擊到我們社會維持治安的穩定度的問題只是我們沒有做細算"},{"start":9257.008,"end":9278.139,"text":"只是沒有做細算那以上我所提的這幾個案例呢大概就是以這個權序部或者剛剛人事行政總署所提到的第一個中央地方政府的領退休金的人數還有領退休金的這個金額也必須要按照中央政府跟地方政府的分配的比例來做考量第二個限職警察的人數"},{"start":9280.114,"end":9308.934,"text":"比35年以上拿到80%的退休人數74747比起來還少了將近1萬多人所以這樣的財務結構未來可能會更惡化只是我們現在沒有精算因為對不起剛剛我才拿到這個這個兩個檔的這個一個附件那以上的這樣的報告我們還是一樣第一個我們還是仍然要積極照顧現職的警察包括他們有危老家籍或者繁重家籍的部分我想各位都非常理解"},{"start":9309.534,"end":9337.353,"text":"那還是一樣我們在不管是行政單位或是軍公教或是警察我們都一體我們希望退府事項呢還是按照限定職長由考試院來負責那我們會全力配合以上簡單報告好謝謝內政部劉部長各位謝謝各位行政官員的練習各位黨團幹部我們剛才發言的次序啊第一輪已經發言完畢了第一輪是國民黨長講的沒有你又講了你一開始就講了二十一二十三分鐘那個是你講的"},{"start":9339.374,"end":9363.205,"text":"麥玉珍委 劉許廷委員講了七分鐘麥玉珍委員大概講了六分鐘 都講完了各部會書也都講完了後來民進黨又多了一個蔡宇書長又講了所以我知道我要跟各位黨團幹部來報告一下交換意見尤其剛剛蔡宇點了一下我穴道 我的壓力很大不要說討論 我還要為協商而協商我不是這個意思我們今天總共有八個案"},{"start":9363.925,"end":9379.188,"text":"我們現在才進入第二個啊所以我想跟各位黨團幹部來溝通一下我們就是發展觀光條例跟警察人員人事條例我們保留的部分我們就依照共識我們在上星期五之前我們進行全面的程序"},{"start":9380.009,"end":9402.59,"text":"那我們就,沒有,聽我說完嘛,看大家意見,那我們現在依照我們黨團都說,我們要準備進行壯士代協商等一下,等一下,董事長我講一下沒關係,這樣好不好,如果沒關係,那我再提個另外一個好不好各黨團在推派一位代表,每一位代表三分鐘沒有這個事情那你這樣我,我們這個案子後面講那就結束啦,我們到第三案了來,等一下等一下,院長"},{"start":9404.831,"end":9420.656,"text":"部會首長都已經發三輪了,然後也超過三十分鐘以上等一下,所謂協商是部會首長,將來的表決是我們的沒有,都已經講完了你不是說要好好的來談嗎?我已經談過了,你們都兩個人談,我們才一個人談你快用一個小時,我們只用五分鐘、七分鐘"},{"start":9429.918,"end":9444.22,"text":"完全是不對等了也完全是不平衡了所以第二案已經有充分討論你講一個小時還沒有充分討論要講幾個小時才有充分討論我剛剛講半個鐘你是不是說你要跟我變成半個鐘我在等待啊"},{"start":9446.242,"end":9462.906,"text":"好啊 你要講我就繼續講啊我剛才說啦你講我就繼續講啊那我講了你再講啊我不要你講我就要繼續講啊不是啊 你不尊重我剛才已經講你看我剛才多尊重你我說你尊重院長我尊重你你不尊重我就不尊重你好 如果想我們就繼續講啊你不想讓我講嗎對不對你 你要讓我講就讓我講啊你不尊重我當然沒有辦法"},{"start":9475.19,"end":9491.223,"text":"你剛才講那麼久,我通通尊重你,我完全沒有插話啊我沒有把自己講起來啊院長,那為什麼你不能講啊?真的啊,我原本為了趙薇恩講一下話好不好那警察人員重要的一件事,我完全沒有插話啊他一直只有聽你們說,我們都做不了這件事啊我們只有牛雪恬,用了五分鐘,你們用了一個小時"},{"start":9500.111,"end":9507.44,"text":"我們為什麼要一直讓你們講沒有發言我們為什麼要一直讓你們講沒有發言我們為什麼要一直讓你們講沒有發言我們為什麼要一直讓你們講沒有發言"},{"start":9536.794,"end":9545.661,"text":"現在各列席的官員都在這裡,如果大家繼續這樣,我想官員看了我們委員之間比較激烈一點"},{"start":9547.842,"end":9570.859,"text":"各位官員可以先離席了好不好有問題的官員要回答,有問題的官員要回答,有問題的官員先走了協商沒結論,協商沒結論要問官員啊,我們要跟官員對話啊院長這一個重要的議案要跟官員對話我們有很多要垂詢官員的"},{"start":9574.786,"end":9579.614,"text":"協商就是要大家能夠好好對話聚焦啊我要去拍主席的桌子"},{"start":9586.086,"end":9607.679,"text":"不要去拍主席的桌子柯創造你要有點榜樣啊那王逸川都學壞了你好好轉叫王逸川啦好好轉叫王逸川啦沒你的事啦吳思揚你閉嘴你一直在誇別人的話趕快去好好轉叫王逸川不要讓他學壞了啦"},{"start":9611.24,"end":9629.254,"text":"何其可悲啊,不敢講話,你講不是道理的啊等一下!我們都還沒有發言,要好好討論我會先發言,你也要講,隨便你我在你後面發言好了我尊重大家,我不會像你這樣不尊重別人啊講那麼久,講一個小時都還講不夠重點"},{"start":9631.235,"end":9660.655,"text":"那大家還要被迫一直聽你講話你講一個小時都講不到重點柯總長你可不可以學習一下三分鐘內把重點把重點講出來為什麼劉許廷可以麥玉珍可以羅鋒威可以我們三分鐘講重點你三分鐘講得老套你到現在的發言都不是針對條文啊你到現在的發言都沒有針對條文你都是針對柯總長你完全沒有針對條文發言劉許廷不要走這博士不要走"},{"start":9662.196,"end":9682.271,"text":"說事 說事 說事問證表現不錯 你不要走 我都要真的有問題你要回答問證表現 三分鐘都可以講得很清楚啊 對不對我們不要這樣沒有效率嘛 好不好三分鐘可以講完的話就不要把事情干擾了啦影響的層面很大 大家是要充分討論 不是這樣過水啦"},{"start":9686.033,"end":9706.025,"text":"都已經充分討論了啊你都講二輪還不夠你講二輪還不夠嗎這是說上一次年改的法案上一次年改的法案協商了五天我們雙方都講了就沒有辦法成功協商了四位兄弟你在司法法治委員會充分討論你就知道了嘛你在司法法治啊"},{"start":9706.745,"end":9723.31,"text":"今天的討論其實很充分啦你們講多久了你們還是沒有打討論所以這沒有公示我們就去表決啦好不好你們就只會表決只會過水我對於警察員員人士條例我都還沒有發言到我也沒有發言啊對啊那我沒有發言啊"},{"start":9727.931,"end":9742.141,"text":"我們也要發言啊我們要淋漓彼此的觀點啊我們也要發言啊 奇怪啦所以就是繼續發言繼續討論啊他們可以講繼續討論啊繼續發言繼續討論啊你們那個是假效率啦你們是假的效率啦只是為了過水只是為了過水我做上一次的年改法案光朝野協商就五次"},{"start":9755.39,"end":9764.936,"text":"年改和其重大世代的對立世代的不正義公務人員之間的不公平不需要值得討論嗎大家討論得非常清楚就是沒有辦法達成共識講都沒有辦法達成共識你講A我講BA跟B就沒有形成C又沒有辦法達成共識沒有辦法對話就已經沒有辦法共識了我們還有很多案子還有很多案子"},{"start":9786.07,"end":9787.051,"text":"好好討論,好好對話,對不對?年改姿勢體大"},{"start":9832.086,"end":9841.394,"text":"欸 你以為我們不能講啊 你們已經講兩輪了你們還要講第三輪 不讓人家講話 也這麼霸道嗎你們可以講兩輪 我本來就可以講啊那就再來講嘛 那我們就二輪發言 就三輪發言嘛"},{"start":9853.136,"end":9857.34,"text":"這麼重要的一個制度改革難道不應該每個人都發言嗎聽不懂你在講什麼講的又講不清楚對不對待會我就會來告訴你我的重點啦我重點清楚就好了啦等一下可以讓你講一小時"},{"start":9870.288,"end":9878.836,"text":"你們想要拖延對不對我們非常有效率啦人家牛許廷問政第一名需要講到30分鐘講不清楚嗎3分鐘講到重點對不對學人家一下牛許廷剛剛講了7分鐘喔他不是講3分鐘喔對不對"},{"start":9886.423,"end":9891.169,"text":"人家一個新的 新的委員連所得替代率五個字都講錯 這個叫做問政低迷我至少沒有什麼歲計騰餘喔還歲計騰餘咧 對不對蛤 你要講人身攻擊 大家一起來攻擊喔"},{"start":9903.264,"end":9909.428,"text":"還有在那邊胡說八道我直接問部長請問一下我們有講說我們的這個居公車調薪不確定嗎你為什麼講不確定你今天去跟外面講不確定嗎我們在這邊報假消息現在已經一月了行政部門跟著一起報假消息好 鍾佳斌 吳子瑤請問一下從去年的時候除了去年參讀在12月底之外哪一年在12月底以前通過你告訴我所以你打算什麼時候通過"},{"start":9933.044,"end":9940.691,"text":"沒有我們隨時可以通過啊你們現在搞一個復議案誰在擋預算你們在擋預算啊我們正在審啊我們每一個招委會面招委還沒審訊啊哪一個招委會面是擋預算"},{"start":9952.342,"end":9960.065,"text":"副立案 你們自己認為中央立案 浪費我們的時間所以是你們在擋預算而且 等一下 鍾小平不要回避我的問題除了去年之外 柳毅仁的預算在12月底前 你告訴我"},{"start":9975.07,"end":9980.036,"text":"是誰讓總預算現在還繼續在審?吳思瑤你告訴我啊你也是資深的委員啊資深委員告訴我啊現在我們都在睡覺"},{"start":9994.831,"end":10008.58,"text":"還沒審完預算那我們其他的委員我們其他召委沒有在審預算你又不是召委說人家沒有審預算啊我在打預算我跟你講事實啊我在浪費我們的時間啊"},{"start":10014.723,"end":10020.907,"text":"民進黨在擋預算啦民進黨在擋預算啦我們都很認真的在擋預算奇怪了妳在浪費我們的時間啊妳才浪費一定的時間妳才浪費一定的時間妳才浪費一定的時間妳才浪費一定的時間"},{"start":10044.343,"end":10048.146,"text":"王委員我跟你說明我們過去歷年12月30號之前各委員會的委員會預算案都審訊"},{"start":10071.405,"end":10083.189,"text":"那麼去年到今年為止呢 塗塗國民黨司法法制委員會的召委吳宗憲還沒審訊我告訴你 過去歷年委員會的階段通通審訊不要跟我講委員會 我問你啊 我們整個院會三途通過什麼時間嘛你今天我們的公務人員也要等到三途通過"},{"start":10092.412,"end":10105.987,"text":"然後去公告實施嘛對不對每天都在咒搖林柱英咒搖然後今天部長也可以講這樣的話這不是就欺騙社會大眾嗎蛤你們今天是好好討論嗎還是來這邊欺騙社會大眾呢對不對"},{"start":10111.306,"end":10119.793,"text":"黃宏輝火氣不要那麼大啦火氣不要那麼大啦現在要接書記長了火氣好大喔市民的火氣都沒有這麼大市民當書記長火氣都沒那麼大你接書記長為什麼火氣這麼大市民氣度好啦你氣度不好喔我氣度不好喔"},{"start":10135.287,"end":10157.323,"text":"我會接受機會我可以講嗎讓你們一直在那邊露露腸我在那邊聽你們的聽訊啊莫名其妙你們講話特別好聽嗎講一堆廢話還浪費我的時間三十分鐘都講不完三分鐘可以講完的話再講三十分鐘現在都自己在講話你不想聽你可以到外面走一走啊我們要講啊到外面走一走啊我們要講啊重要法案啊"},{"start":10195.575,"end":10212.934,"text":"好啦現在在場因為提醒大家不管您是列席機關代表還是參與協商的委員現在韓院長回來了不曉得什麼時候開始因為我每次來啊都沒有機會講到話我們事發法是聯席主持跟內政聯席主持本草案的條例我主席都來了您就好那我就停了好不好那你又要讓我講了齁"},{"start":10218.9,"end":10234.478,"text":"各位黨內幹部請坐我想這兩個案子,我們送院會,第二案我們就一樣院長,我們都講好明天會進行表決,今天這個案送,你敢送到案子?"},{"start":10235.259,"end":10247.038,"text":"我們都還沒講,然後你要叫官員離席這成為體統了,那國民黨只有牛啟寧可以講而已,我希望王文威先講沒有關係王文威你講半個鐘頭,你講一個鐘頭,我講半個鐘頭"},{"start":10252.384,"end":10278.181,"text":"我講三分鐘,你講三分鐘你要講三分鐘是你的事情那個...曹偉鄉還在限制你什麼時間啊沒有,柯守昭我要澄清一下,我不是不尊重官員,反而我是非常尊重官員因為他們已經把議題都講完了,也表達了他講完我們講不很滿意,他要回答,我們可以結論他我也結論他,他可以回答因為我要進入第三案了,我才請官員...沒有...曹偉鄉不是你要進入第幾案就第幾案不是這本案..."},{"start":10282.946,"end":10303.382,"text":"我要澄清一下,希望你不要誤解我,尊重官員,我才會剛才...尊重官員就是讓官員留下來我知道,我知道,您先不要再...現在如果說下一輪要繼續發言的話,現在民進黨有三位委員都舉手了柯總召、吳世耀幹事長、然後鍾嘉斌召集委員,那藍軍呢?國民黨團現在哪一位?"},{"start":10304.923,"end":10310.968,"text":"我們可不可以確認一下我們這個案子事實上剛才也經過充分討論你又在插我話我才講30秒不到我是想會議詢問一下我們是不是可以確定我們有幾輪的發言好不好因為我們下面都還有很重大剛才講壯士在不重大嗎人家吳春城在這邊等了那麼久"},{"start":10333.706,"end":10348.752,"text":"他要學商我們進入學商人家有要求所以我們是不是最多兩輪可不可以那個主席那兩輪然後我們呢我們的發言我們一定會精簡好不好那把重點講出來那但是呢因為民進黨黨團已經用完兩輪了好不好好謝謝"},{"start":10353.483,"end":10367.474,"text":"等一下我等回答你讓我們反對方表達充分的意見我請教一下,是您發言還是宗家兵發言等一下,我先發言大市長要發言,召委都要發言"},{"start":10371.497,"end":10378.618,"text":"我現在要講啦我現在要講啦你們都已經用兩輪啦 現在該我講可以嗎你講什麼鬼話啦什麼鬼話啦我現在就是我可以講每一黨兩輪兩輪可以啦沒有啊 每一個政黨兩輪發言因為民進黨沒有這樣子倒退路咧這政界本案喔我們還倒退路他前面都是白算的嗎沒有主席這個"},{"start":10396.742,"end":10417.329,"text":"這個我們的議事的規則應該要確立啦好不好我還正式要發言呢我還正式不是你嗎柯總召主席又不是你啊我再詢問主席你是主席嗎你今天是主席嗎你不是主席好不好柯總召官委員請柯總召"},{"start":10422.037,"end":10439.072,"text":"這樣好不好民進黨再發言一會然後國民黨團發言一會台灣民進黨團發言一會我做至少兩位一黨兩位你不可能這兩位下去下面還有這六個案子我保證後面案子非常快而且行政部門一定表達現在不是你只要可以不可以你是因為中立的"},{"start":10439.833,"end":10462.706,"text":"我不是中立,我要...總之今天已經要通過各一個人不是中立嗎?各議員發言不是中立嗎?好不好?沒有,一黨至少兩個我們好好遵守這個規則,很快你剛剛跟他吵的時間都過去了嘛你怕人家講是不是?還是你不會講?你又講清楚不是啦,幫你講三分鐘可以啊你講三分鐘啊"},{"start":10465.248,"end":10468.951,"text":"我們希望這個環境是公平的好不好我們就只有這個要求"},{"start":10483.746,"end":10508.747,"text":"好不好 我要尊重你的發言我們一位嘛 如果你們要讓柯總召發言我們也沒有意見嘛我們尊重主席的才智啊謝謝大家提出尊重主席的才智那現在下面民進黨團發言一位國民黨團發言一位 台灣民眾黨團發言一位我們就結束所有的發言請柯建民總召請發言將來代替商案的時候"},{"start":10509.508,"end":10513.037,"text":"你還是可以再講,我要講什麼都沒有限制"},{"start":10516.684,"end":10527.786,"text":"各位委員同仁你們現在柯總召再發言,鍾佳斌委員請尊重一下柯總總統你也要說,總統要成功就是要年輕改革不要破產大家也要說"},{"start":10542.782,"end":10566.91,"text":"院長,我很尊重你院長,所有職務院長,各位委員同仁,各位律師官員今天是一個非常重要的時刻,剛才司副總講到最後,我先從他最後來講他講到最後都說,他在民主執政時期三任任務官員當部委所長"},{"start":10569.856,"end":10583.176,"text":"那段話實在聽起來非常動容但他最後講一句話就是說這法通過以後後續的作業程序非常長我從這裡開始講好不好剛才我想"},{"start":10584.716,"end":10610.007,"text":"蘇貞昌講的話是比較謙異的原則其實蘇貞昌剛才開頭第一句話就是平等原則平等原則是憲法第七條中華民國的國民、人民不分男女、宗教、種族的階級在法律上也一定平等今天我要講這個東西"},{"start":10613.803,"end":10635.929,"text":"這個先確定,你違反憲法的東西,其他後面都不必再講了所以在講一個憲法的平等原則,尤其年輕改革你像在過去,現在警察人員這樣的事情,這樣調整的話剛才兩個部長、三個部長都講得非常詳盡我今天要講一個句話就是說,針對"},{"start":10638.325,"end":10651.492,"text":"國民黨代表劉璇是英國留英的那我當然在外面也該講說小妞啊你是有前途的人啊你不要為了國民黨亂講話"},{"start":10654.485,"end":10681.367,"text":"那洪委員就比較知道,他口上嘔起來他不講,因為比他講他有良心的話他不講嘛那只有,我會當跑手,那那個傅文綺,那我塞在那裡看,看不到看什麼東西啊那林思明我們都是同鄉啦,也是律師啦不要挑釁對立,說好笑做不對啦,不要講謊話,這是不行的"},{"start":10682.954,"end":10710.067,"text":"這個是何其慎重的常委協商我們的血筋走高啦這不是小孩在玩遊戲的,我們的血筋走高所以從這裡開始我第一次很認真聽他講話講了七分鐘我有一個感覺啦唐思山來走,裡面有一個將近九分金不見黃河之水天上來溫柔到海不如晚,那氣勢非常磅礡他講得很快"},{"start":10712.301,"end":10736.633,"text":"但是折磨不清,裡面講話又鬼扯,折磨不清而且很可惜,以在國外的歷練,以你自己的學養你不要照狗面,你認得太快了你講話要講得能讓人感動,講話協力出來,道理出來,這是我善意的建議所以開頭第一句話最重要"},{"start":10738.334,"end":10758.081,"text":"暗中出宮啦所以事務長開始講的就是說憲法第七條評審原則沒有這評審原則以下都白講的那蔡前總統執政的時候我們展開臨近改革國事會議大家也見過這一段嘛每天都直播"},{"start":10759.844,"end":10782.912,"text":"我講Coin以前不太講,也不叫李萊希那這當民改國是非議,我有呈現民改國是非議我想那時候很多委員都還沒進到立法院來我又講這一句話就是說我來日本31年經過所有改革,經過所有法案,那撿回總召"},{"start":10784.622,"end":10796.97,"text":"二十年我看過法案至少六千個法案以上我參加朝野協商全部不太搞的因為要把所有的法律原則講得很清楚法律內容講得很清楚所以我要這樣講就是說"},{"start":10800.566,"end":10824.094,"text":"那位委員經過催淫,你會非常outstanding,連那個土著地下也弄錯了過去有委員說出席率講到出席率帥氣,我都奇怪怎麼有出席率帥氣,原來出席率所以這個薄敬一餐,年輕改革的時候如果如同展開,那時候還有八百壯士"},{"start":10826.049,"end":10843.459,"text":"對於非常嚴重大家不要忘記就在我們青龍鋼哨旁邊有八百三十爬到樓上去又摔下來當成死亡很多那種衝突衝突很嚴重到最後改革開除完成了"},{"start":10844.159,"end":10856.896,"text":"那今天我們在談這個警察人事條例的時候,因為中大院子,我相信大家都聽懂了吧就是說警察當然他很辛苦,當然圍繞獎金上面都有處理"},{"start":10860.891,"end":10875.239,"text":"那這個時候要講公平的話剛才蘇理事長講過沒有公務員都一樣公平平等對待不是只有警察我不是反對警察警消人員"},{"start":10876.508,"end":10893.237,"text":"是要有一個公平原則,沒有這個公平原則以上,政府沒有辦法讓你都違憲所以你講了半天,我們這樣講了半天經過表決以後,其實啊送事先的話,絕對違憲啦我不知道,我們哪知道現在如何在新聞底下談這個事情"},{"start":10895.626,"end":10909.419,"text":"那我要講就是說為什麼年輕改革讓大家這麼注意因為要勇氣所以剛才施部長有講過一句話你這樣改的話提早兩年破產提早兩年破產"},{"start":10910.768,"end":10932.235,"text":"那就是說既然是一開始就獨樹獨樹一開始就違憲的就沒有所謂我們後面要他去計算什麼將來的作業情形那是不這樣說不行但是在我眼光裡面我們大家要了解事務長的用意就是在這裡那將來我們來講的話"},{"start":10935.476,"end":10957.869,"text":"這到憲法法庭,我曾經為國會擴展到憲法法庭那吳士堯也是參加,中央秘密參加不管在暫時主任庭上面或是憲法法庭上辯論上面,尤其我們都參加那談到一個憲法庭裡面談到一個就是說國民黨所提的法案有沒有違憲"},{"start":10959.775,"end":10986.974,"text":"但是有一個人非常特別,他以前也曾經當過考選部部長也是在訴法院的人,叫董寶成董寶成本身也會寫憲法他是國民黨請來的請來接受專家講話的但是他裡面講了一句話我那時候,他講一句話就是說國民黨版本有沒有違憲他說,他拿一個報紙"},{"start":10988.871,"end":11010.378,"text":"那白紙張貼在臉上,他說顯而易見啊,而且民共就看了知道違憲了這個總某程鬧事到最後,國民黨情形代表一個浪費國民黨的版本有目測的,好像一看就知道違憲了,他哪一個紙張在他這裡"},{"start":11013.366,"end":11040.415,"text":"顯而易見的今天我們同樣的一句話告訴國民黨有沒有違憲這個要靠老夫兄也知道不是顯而易見的就是說為什麼王伯一直不敢講因為甚至說我們講三中你也能講過都不能再講因為你拿不出輿論書我在等待你們將來等一下下一輪怎麼講你追共"},{"start":11041.275,"end":11057.767,"text":"我講10分鐘你講20分鐘我都沒意見但是我會稀有公聽在後面的時候這個算這個沒有在下一個法案的下一個案子我還是可以講這個案子立法委員歡迎到市長不受限制所以請國民黨我在做我前排的國民黨"},{"start":11059.301,"end":11080.926,"text":"在你們即將投入歷史文化的最後一刻你們也要保持對國家的良心我剛才記者來問我我說我是仗義之言仗打藍白國民黨竟然要進入歷史文化組織歷史文化組織一來分滿了十個國民黨的黨主席國民黨的副總召"},{"start":11084.366,"end":11106.754,"text":"你們要像男子漢一樣,不要有guess你要出來論述,如何加速王董死亡你要當一個送心者希望這些你都聽得下去那待會前面好好講我們在座的不管吳氏雅委員、李公正委員、蔡壹維委員、蔡英文總裁、明朝委員"},{"start":11107.884,"end":11117.509,"text":"都會給你們詳細的解答部委首長,等一下,部委首長市部長他會給你引入通知的"},{"start":11124.375,"end":11127.436,"text":"那我會在盡量最短的時間內不會東扯西扯還會提到說什麼去要送行等等之類我覺得我們的這樣的一個協商應該要有效率而且"},{"start":11146.985,"end":11168.797,"text":"應該要就事論事不要從天保年間的儀式就開始談真的是浪費大家的時間那尤其我們其實每個案子都非常的重要那尤其剛才柯總召一開始講壯世代也非常重要所以其實我們接下來應該要討論壯世代這個基本法"},{"start":11173.679,"end":11191.379,"text":"那我在一開始我要先特別的去澄清一件事情因為剛才我們的全市部長又談到了說有關於公務員員加薪沒有確定啊我必須說因為最近呢民進黨的委員包含林柱英委員"},{"start":11192,"end":11209.96,"text":"公然造謠說這個公務人員不能夠加薪是因為在野黨故意拖延預算的審查不審預算但是事實上公務人員明年加薪3%這個其實是各政黨的共識"},{"start":11211.201,"end":11235.426,"text":"對不起今年114年的共識而我們的一個預算程序其實我也有提供過去七年來除了去年它比較特殊因為去年是選舉年而且總統換屆所以在整個的總預算三讀在去年確實在前一年度的12月底之前完成三讀"},{"start":11236.386,"end":11245.591,"text":"但是即使如此有關於公務人員加薪的部分仍然是公告實施的期間是到"},{"start":11247.146,"end":11274.718,"text":"當年的1月8號才開始實施那接下來前面的六年我也必須講前面六年大家也知道都是民進黨的委員占絕大多數在這樣的狀況之下我剛才講的從107年到112年沒有一年的總預算三讀是在前一年度的12月底前完成"},{"start":11275.698,"end":11297.178,"text":"那麼甚至呢 有關於公務員員調薪還有到當年度的1月下旬 比如說28號 29號才完成三讀那但是它的實施時間到2月中但是即使如此 等到通過之後 仍然會追溯發放"},{"start":11297.939,"end":11319.632,"text":"所以不會影響我們公教人員的條心的他的權益這個必須要核心序明我們要講得非常清楚啊不要連我們的部長也在配合民進黨的委員製造假消息假訊息造成我們公務人員的人心浮動"},{"start":11320.572,"end":11326.134,"text":"我覺得這不是一個尤其是這個我們的人事相關單位應該要做的事情這一點我們必須說明第二點剛才我也仔細聆聽我們的行政部門特別提到為什麼摯愛難行特別講到這樣的對於其他的公務人員是不公平的"},{"start":11344.662,"end":11353.068,"text":"好那這樣的一個論述基本上是製造公務人員之間的對立我覺得這一點是並不可取那尤其我們為什麼在這一次除了警察還有消防跟海巡我們可以看到我們的政府"},{"start":11364.195,"end":11379.23,"text":"一而再再而三就是要加強這個台灣的國防的防備所以一直提出來所謂的第二海軍就是海巡單位所謂的第二陸軍就是我們的警察人員"},{"start":11380.231,"end":11388.395,"text":"好 所以也就是說事實上在現在我們的政府防衛院性的一個規劃裡面我們的警察人員跟海巡人員事實上都已經被規劃到第二海軍跟第二陸軍所以我要講"},{"start":11399.261,"end":11406.863,"text":"在這樣的一個防衛的規劃下難道我們要去跟警消說雖然你們是第二海軍你們是第二陸軍但是你們還是跟軍方是不一樣的我覺得這一點對於這些警察和海巡人員是不公平的"},{"start":11418.826,"end":11443.439,"text":"那另外我也看到聽到剛才我們的行政部門說非常擔心啊造成了一個限職的軍警消還有海巡的他們的離退那我在這邊要特別講因為呢就是這些的我們的人員弟兄他們特別的危險所以我舉我把一個資料給大家看一下"},{"start":11444.139,"end":11462.376,"text":"也就是別說以景大的報名人數當然一方面我承認有少子化的原因但是也是就是第一個你比較危險然後但是呢你的待遇也沒有特別好所以以我們景大報名人數在108年還有4683人但是到了112年齊聚的滑落到2793人"},{"start":11470.803,"end":11476.989,"text":"所以我們今天面臨的不僅僅是說你只看到這樣子可能限職的他說我乾脆趕快退休好了但是你另外一方面也要想到如果我們希望能夠充實我們錦霄海巡然後達成你們第二海軍第二陸軍的目的是不是在他們的待遇上面"},{"start":11492.102,"end":11509.467,"text":"也應該做提升那麼剛才特別講我們應該是做限職人員對限職人員尤其他的僅勤加給應該提高這個我舉雙手贊成但是我也必須說我們一直到應該是前年才提高了僅勤加給"},{"start":11510.767,"end":11516.308,"text":"17年來沒有調才赫然發現我們其實虧待我們的警消海巡人員已經這麼久了其實老實說我們在這一次裡面我們沒有辦法到目前為止我們沒有辦法把移民署的人員特別是空勤的人員納入其實老實說我覺得我們某些委員對這些弟兄來講我們心理上也是過意不去的"},{"start":11537.592,"end":11538.333,"text":"尤其空情人員剛剛他有特別提到空情人員"},{"start":11542.594,"end":11547.295,"text":"每次大家都說哎呀有颱風的時候有災害的時候大家留在家裡不要出去可是對不起我們這些救災人員越是風大越是雨大越是有災害的時候他就要跑出去但是我們這次空情人員沒有辦法把他補上去我覺得都是遺憾啊我甚至很希望我們這次的這個修法能夠把這些真的"},{"start":11568.78,"end":11571.142,"text":"在我們整個防災裡面這麼重要環節的弟兄也能夠把他們補上去好 接下來我要特別回應剛才也一直在講每次都拿這種財務惡化來嚇唬我們"},{"start":11583.955,"end":11593.938,"text":"剛才我看到全市部長也講得非常清楚啦就是50年他已經有一個估計而且他這個估計是按照原來90%所得替代率90%來計算還有50年他的財務缺口是多少呢1700沒有1700 對不起"},{"start":11606.761,"end":11610.704,"text":"1772億1700多億不到1800億這是50年的財務缺口所以剛才一直在講我們如果實施不得了我們的退府基金要提前破產這個雖然是50年50年你如果覺得1700億財務缺口這麼大我請問一下台電一年要虧多少台電一年喔不要等50年喔"},{"start":11636.53,"end":11654.601,"text":"一年兩千億起跳價台電一年虧補就是兩千億我們應該講我們能源政策錯誤啊能不能改善台電的基本的財務狀況不做啊 不做啊用什麼辦法呢 不會補啊"},{"start":11655.561,"end":11660.945,"text":"所以如果1700億是了不起的財務缺口會讓我們財政惡化到破產那請問一下台電是不是讓我們整個國家都破產不是只有退府基金破產喔我們國家是不是因此為台電而破產一年就2000億元上然後你告訴我50年1700億好嚴重好嚴重我不曉得這個標準是什麼"},{"start":11677.577,"end":11679.559,"text":"好 這個完全不符合比例原則好 再來這個有關於財務缺口 剛才講年改年輕人是多麼重要多麼重要不年改不足以去作為改革好 那這一點呢我也要引用也是我們柯總召的徒弟啊就是我們前勞動部長何佩珊說的"},{"start":11699.878,"end":11707.76,"text":"有關於這個勞保年金的部分也有很多人講這個財務負擔很嚴重也有財務缺口該怎麼辦何沛山前部長柯建民總召的愛徒他怎麼說外界不應該有砍年金才是改革的迷思好不好 你看到沒有"},{"start":11724.79,"end":11749.268,"text":"不是只有看看看才叫改革這叫做迷思然後他的名言是政府2020年就開始撥補撥補也是改革聽到了嗎如果我們對於勞保年金我們對勞工部分我們政府可以認可撥補也是一種改革那請問50年1700億不能撥補"},{"start":11755.679,"end":11771.49,"text":"這樣就是我們的景蕭弟兄我們的海巡弟兄然後就要拖垮我們政府的財政拖垮所有公務人員以後你們可能領不到退休金你們退休金如果有虧損的話都是他們的錯人民和其無辜尤其這些這些弟兄我不用再重述他們的一個就是他們的現身間的任務跟危險性"},{"start":11785.339,"end":11813.882,"text":"而且如果今天按照人事總署講他心裡對於其他的公教人員過意不去啊大家都這麼辛苦奉獻國家是啊這不是什麼樣這不是途徑嗎為什麼很辛苦很危險然後像那個他們在講每一次出去拎著腦袋出去的對於他們的妻兒做何感想"},{"start":11814.659,"end":11824.886,"text":"如果你是警察的妻兒 如果你是消防人員我們看多少次消防人員在這些大火裡面 年紀輕輕喪失他們的生命如果我們能夠有一些憐憫之心 我們為什麼還要去製造這些對立"},{"start":11835.003,"end":11854.187,"text":"在我們合理去調整他們的一個退休所得替代率的時候還要把他們當成一個去肩負你政府財務不健全甚至你把他變成一個財務惡化甚至破產的代罪羔羊合理嗎當然不合理所以在這邊我們一直說我們願意做討論"},{"start":11864.704,"end":11877.325,"text":"我們不是沒有論述 但是我們尊重我們尊重主席的裁量權我們也希望在整個的協商過程裡面大家可以做理性的討論"},{"start":11878.942,"end":11898.708,"text":"但是如果今天只有唯我獨尊一講話就要講到30分鐘起跳然後逼迫其他人一定要聽我不是要你現在可能覺得我講得很久剛才因為柯總召說你也可以講其實我們不是不能講但是我們會希望好 我的意思就是說"},{"start":11902.711,"end":11930.744,"text":"我的意思就是說今天我們對於在某一次的草野協商我們尊重每一位出席者我們也尊重每一個題目比如說我們現在時間因為我們現在才到第二案對不對所以我剛才拜託主席我們把我們的一個原則因為每一個案子都很重要你今天講說年改很重要這些有關年金很重要重視帶不重要"},{"start":11931.764,"end":11935.409,"text":"蛤這次還不重要嗎能不能給他一點時間呢那我們再拖下去那到什麼時候呢對不對是不是然後我們我們不一樣不重要嗎我剛才就講了然後說我們什麼在拖延拖延預算"},{"start":11949.085,"end":11949.986,"text":"你把副醫生送過來然後要讓我們處理我們的時間已經極為有限我們的院會時間極為有限院長去美國參加川普的就職典禮也非常重要"},{"start":11964.807,"end":11982.059,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下已經極度的壓縮我們的院會的時間所以今天不是在野黨在黨預算啊在野黨我們各個委員會都很努力的在加緊腳步在審預算啊我們都已經準備了我們的委員都還準備說是不是這個禮拜就應該進入再來協商預算了"},{"start":11987.463,"end":11988.404,"text":"可是呢 老師說我覺得民進黨不急民進黨急的是什麼 急的是復育 急的是去修憲"},{"start":11996.741,"end":12002.845,"text":"急的是罷免欸急的是要消滅其他政黨欸急的是解散國會不是嗎這不是柯總召這兩天念之再之的嗎所以我必須要來講我現在要來講民意所需總預算不是民意所需現在總預算不重要現在罷免比總預算還要重要柯總召你的意思是這樣子所以現在罷免比這個預算的通過還要重要囉你的意思是這樣嗎"},{"start":12025.58,"end":12044.036,"text":"民意所趨是什麼我們的認知我們大家盡量的配合老實講我們今天在野黨說實在比較急的應該是執政黨吧但是即使如此我們不分朝野民生法案大家加速通過人或有我們彼此意見不同"},{"start":12045.117,"end":12056.849,"text":"沒有關係嘛大家經過協商經過意識處理這不叫民主程序什麼叫民主程序聽一個人一個政黨的發言聽他一人的意見才叫民主程序嗎"},{"start":12059.278,"end":12081.337,"text":"賴總統所謂的更大民主我也聽不懂啊我們立法委員每一個都是選出來的啊對不對 我們的主席 我們的院長也是透過民主程序選出來的這不叫民主程序 什麼叫做民主程序不和民進黨就叫民主於死民主不要死啊 好不好說啊對不對你看 是不是你看走運算不重要啊台灣民眾黨請發言"},{"start":12087.799,"end":12092.645,"text":"謝謝主席我們大家都說軍人比警察的工作危險"},{"start":12095.154,"end":12099.637,"text":"大家領太多的政府預算警察同仁聽到會很傷心你們民進黨不能這麼說因為像現行的狀態每天救災救難是現任的警察海巡警消還有每天在高危險工作加班輪班我們為他們捍衛爭取和軍人一樣的制度很公平很合理的修法"},{"start":12123.234,"end":12145.858,"text":"在92年之前移民官他們也是警察因為政府改革增加一個署所以呢就把警察移到移民署他們現在以警察的身份退休嗎還是他們以移民官的退休呢他們的保障又是什麼如果民進黨沒有搞台獨搞分類沒有挑撥離間就不會有戰爭軍人就不會有危險"},{"start":12152.679,"end":12163.844,"text":"但是警察、消防、海巡還有專情人員每天都在保護人民的安全都處在危險的工作請大家討論警察條例如果協商無法達成共識請不要浪費大家的時間我們好好去討論好不好 謝謝"},{"start":12175.467,"end":12188,"text":"綜合上述黨團幹部所有的發言顯然無法達成共識因此警察人員人事條例我們送院會處理休息十分鐘我們進行壯士代協商"},{"start":12928.316,"end":12950.421,"text":"好 謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐好 謝謝非常感謝今天我們列席的我們現在討論壯士代政策與產業發展促進法草案我們非常感謝今天列席的官員國家發展委員會的彭副主委 歡迎您勞動部的陳次長"},{"start":12952.305,"end":12980.246,"text":"勞動部陳次長 歡迎您 歡迎您那其他各位列席官員 大家好 請坐我們現在進入第三案的協商我們先請這個中央世代的政策與產業發展促進法案請吳春哲委員請發言好 謝謝 謝謝主席喔這個我是一個菜鳥立委喔到了立法院"},{"start":12981.765,"end":12995.417,"text":"將近一年的時間,看到了高手雲集,高談闊論,高潮跌起,所以學習甚多"},{"start":12996.926,"end":13011.337,"text":"那每天就像在暴風雨當中院長應該也感受深刻所以呢就是在頂著這個風雨每天向前就像民眾黨的黨歌一樣穩穩的走"},{"start":13015.139,"end":13043.172,"text":"就是一步一腳印然後我一個部會一個部會去溝通去說明提倡壯世代的理念一開始大家陌生然後逐漸的今天走到這裡有院長來召集三個黨來協商這個壯處方那我充滿著感恩的心那這一個"},{"start":13063.669,"end":13070.552,"text":"臺灣在今年進入了超高齡的社會再過十年一半的人口將超過50歲"},{"start":13072.967,"end":13092.387,"text":"到時候消費市場萎縮 稅基減少 年輕人的撫養比飆高各種的社會問題迫在眉睫那在這一個關鍵的時刻 非常的感謝有在三黨的有勢之勢的合作之下"},{"start":13093.248,"end":13116.48,"text":"我們推動了撞促法為高齡化的台灣開出了一條路那撞促法呢在這個溝通過程當中很感謝三黨的支持因為提出了針對時代的問題提出了不一樣的解方而且立法程序完整過程當中還獲得了"},{"start":13117.981,"end":13147.321,"text":"行政機關積極的響應以具體的行政事件來充實撞住法的內容這裡也對行政單位表達謝意總結撞住法有五大特色第一個是跨社會撞住法是協助台灣從高齡社會無痛的邁向超高齡社會的一個法案過去五十年台灣的人口結構是很漂亮的正三角形但是"},{"start":13148.181,"end":13164.157,"text":"未來的五十年台灣的人口結構會變成倒三角形怎麼樣從一個正三我們過去習慣用正三角形的思維來制定法令制定政策準備的一切但是我們現在國發會的資料裡面"},{"start":13167.42,"end":13187.056,"text":"顯示了這個叫做不可逆轉的我們要走向倒三角形的社會所以政府的產業結構法令社會的思想現在還停留在50年前這是我跟各部會溝通的心得所以使得壯士代擁有社會資產的"},{"start":13189.718,"end":13210.656,"text":"這龐大的現在壯實在55歲以上已經有800萬人這800萬人無法有效的發揮他的效能反而是淪為社會的負擔我們有必要透過立法行政的合作來扭轉這樣的趨勢那第二個特色是跨黨派"},{"start":13212.637,"end":13234.486,"text":"撞促法在立法的過程當中我也非常感謝各黨派的支持我們在去年的4月份成立了撞促會就有63位跨黨派的立委的加入包括民進黨執政黨有20位委員也加入撞促會那莊瑞雄委員也是我們的副會長"},{"start":13235.706,"end":13254.518,"text":"你也有,宗嘉斌委員還有施堯也是然後那個王振旭委員還是我的這個法案的共同提案人還有我們兩位的那個易瑜、昆城都是這個法案的連署人所以我非常感謝當然國民黨的三長"},{"start":13255.419,"end":13278.592,"text":"都是這個法案的連署人還有包括那個孟楷也是狀促會的副會長也是狀促會的副會長所以我非常的感謝各黨派的支持那這一次的法案也有40位跨黨派的立委連署所以共識度相當的高第三個特色是跨部會"},{"start":13279.873,"end":13299.282,"text":"我也非常感謝我們的卓議院長在今年五月份就看了這個在我的一場質詢當中他聽了以後就非常感動允諾在行政院成立的壯士在跨部位小組由陳時中這一個政委來擔任召集人"},{"start":13300.262,"end":13324.153,"text":"那一開始我是要求六個部會結果陳時中政委把它擴張到14個部會加入所以已經有14個部會在這個大概將近半年多的時間來推動特別是勞動部一整年的時間高舉的壯世代重返職場三年內編列了98億鼓勵而且應該是這一年來這一個"},{"start":13330.96,"end":13349.109,"text":"勞動部最亮眼的政策最亮眼的政策就是壯士代衝繁職場來填補我們現在勞動力的不足而且在立法的過程當中我們除了所有的過程都非常的慎重完整之外我們也舉辦了兩次的公聽會"},{"start":13350.049,"end":13374.02,"text":"第一次的公聽會有十個部會出席其中有八個次長全程出席四個小時非常的投入而且我們很有高度的共識到第二次公聽會的時候有十二個部會出席所以立法程序相當的完整第四個特色是跨領域狀促法是因應"},{"start":13375.558,"end":13393.316,"text":"台灣進入高齡社會以來從社福性的、照護性的政策跨向了一個發展性的政策的代表就是我們未來龐大的高齡人口到2070年65歲的人口將會占到台灣人口的46%"},{"start":13398.503,"end":13416.108,"text":"將近一半的人超過65歲我們不可能一直用照護性用福利性的政策來因應這樣一個社會所以如何繼續的發揮這一群高齡者倒三角形我一直在倡議我們面對的高齡社會"},{"start":13417.148,"end":13438.561,"text":"是一個悲慘世界還是一個美好世界呢我們現在幾乎都用悲慘世界的方式在處理那這絕對是一場災難一定要把它打造成一個美好的新世界那這就是壯世代法案的一個重要的精神所以這樣子改"},{"start":13439.562,"end":13464.042,"text":"不是說要否定社福思維而是變成要雙軌制雙軌制一邊的推動社福照護一邊的推動發展性讓他過著美好第三人生我們現在臥床長達到八年我們要努力讓他縮短到兩週這樣才能夠降低我們的社福的壓力讓社福政策能夠永續性的發展"},{"start":13465.583,"end":13481.607,"text":"第五個特色叫跨世代過去我們很多的政策都是世代衝突這個世代多哪一點就是另外一個世代被剝削造成了我們的世代很多的一個對立但撞處罰是一個"},{"start":13485.109,"end":13504.109,"text":"讓世代的資源可以循環發展長壽經濟這也是符合現在經濟部的政策長壽經濟壯世代掌握台灣三分之四的財富但是我們竟然沒有這些壯世代產業除了養生養病養老之外一無所有"},{"start":13505.21,"end":13526.645,"text":"現在已經有龐大的八百萬人在這塊領域當中只有政府除了一個長照政策之外其他的一無所有我們的各部會幾乎把所有這樣的責任推給了衛福部其他部會老人跟我都沒有關係教育部的六十歲以上的預算不到一趴"},{"start":13527.586,"end":13538.532,"text":"不到1% 只有大概0.2%文化部也是一樣 數位部一樣各個部會都覺得老人跟我都無關但是沒有想到這些人即將佔人口的一半"},{"start":13539.96,"end":13558.015,"text":"所以這個是非常的謬誤是停留在一個農業社會1970年的社會來制定一個未來的政策所以這個不得不翻轉因為這樣子不是在幫助年輕人這樣子當這些人傾倒的時候我們現在的撫養比是3.6個撫養一個人到2040年兩個人要撫養一個人2057年一個人要撫養一個人如果這些人倒下來了"},{"start":13565.805,"end":13590.557,"text":"年輕人都沒有未來了所以我們要讓這些人撞下來讓他投入生產性所以不會製造世代對立而是世代的攜手合作降低我們下一代的撫養比的負擔同時創造市場為下一代來創造新的市場機會所以今天非常的懇求各位那我們一起攜手努力為台灣寫下新的一頁 謝謝"},{"start":13591.357,"end":13616.239,"text":"非常非常感謝吳春城委員的發言非常感謝各位黨團幹部我們今年一月三號黨團協商共識之中針對本案民進黨黨團主張先討論民進黨團所提的四項提議如果我們獲知共識的話我們定於元月七號就是明天星期二院會就進行處理民進黨所提的四個提案請各位黨團幹部來參考一下一"},{"start":13617.02,"end":13644.831,"text":"第二条定义为年龄55岁以上有工作能力及工作意愿二不设专职办公室专职机构改国发会三不设基金四不在于两年之内修相关的法规现在我们进行发言请吴思瑶干事长请发言国民党团请准备请吴思瑶干事长请发言"},{"start":13647.228,"end":13652.201,"text":"國民黨團請準備那我也替我們很多委員爭取等一下因為這是一個新的我眼睛在看我眼睛在看謝謝"},{"start":13654.313,"end":13664.696,"text":"首先我想吳春城委員民眾黨這麼努力在推壯士代政策與產業發展促進法我們之後就簡稱壯促法那當然我認為這個也跟我們跨黨合作這都是一個很好的開始事實上行政部門早在2022年的高齡社會白皮書的推動辦理情形裡頭"},{"start":13677.78,"end":13695.354,"text":"跨15個部會然後融合了345項政策工作從112年到115年已經投入1200億這都是跟現在現行的政策那其實高度的在進行當中那如果以最新年度的113年剛過去的這一年政府對於這種高齡社會的相關的投入也高達285億左右"},{"start":13703.22,"end":13718.527,"text":"所以說這是跟既定的政策的方向裡頭是高度的政府在政策上也高度的來照顧這個所謂我們要新創它是一個壯世代這個稱號那但是就是說今天我們要以一個全新的立法"},{"start":13719.187,"end":13734.776,"text":"那當然有幾個事情我們可能首先要去思維的就是說讓它是一個完整的整合性的工作那整合性的政策它能夠非常統合性的去推動盡可能的在新的立法當中去避免跌床駕屋"},{"start":13736.377,"end":13764.906,"text":"去避免事被公辦也就是說大家釐清可以做的事情那有一些當然是guideline式的一些原則性的宣示性的我們都很樂意配合來入法所以民進黨團這段時間也跟行政部門那也在委員會討論的階段那當然包括進入朝野協商的階段我們也都多次跟吳春城委員來做溝通我想再次說我們的跨黨合作民進黨團一直在進行只要是服國立民的政策"},{"start":13765.606,"end":13789.976,"text":"那在上週五我們的黨團共識裡頭我想大家可以看到的幾個原則剛剛院長也大概宣示了所以說我具體回應版本的部分大家可以參考一下這都經過很多時間的一個討論第一個在第二條的壯世代的定義的部分我們看到村城委員今天提出來的修正版本是壯世代"},{"start":13791.357,"end":13813.887,"text":"指55歲以上有工作意願之國民這個部分定義等一下文字還可以再斟酌一下因為就我們上週五的共識是說55歲以上有工作能力及工作意願者之國民或者是用卓院長所說的55歲以上健康有工作能力且為生產者及消費者"},{"start":13815.287,"end":13828.332,"text":"這個定義的部分大家最後再對一下這是第二條的部分然後在第三條也謝謝霍志的共識就是在不吝嗇專責機關所以在第三條的部分本法之主管機關為國家發展委員會"},{"start":13830.273,"end":13848.44,"text":"然後主管機關要整合各目的事業主管機關涉及壯世代的權責等等所以第三條的第一項文字上有做這樣子的處理然後呢這個第三條的第二項跟第三項其實村城委員可以參考一下其實是可以不用的啦第二項跟第三項"},{"start":13849.78,"end":13864.974,"text":"是可以不要的啦然後再來就是不吝赦基金抱歉院長私藥委員你們有版本我先一併講一下你有版本你要不要去把版本印出來給大家看現在發下來的是民眾黨我依據民眾黨的版本來做說明"},{"start":13867.156,"end":13882.107,"text":"因為剛剛村城委員有發因為我覺得這樣子還是很難討論如果說你們民進黨真的已經有版本的話那這樣子就拿出來大家直接看條文嘛來我先講完好嗎因為我是依據民眾黨的再修正動議去修正好不好我先把論述完沒關係等一下可以不用急等一下可以不用急可以不用急"},{"start":13891.954,"end":13894.476,"text":"因為我也是剛剛拿到村城委員的再修正動議先讓我發言完好嗎"},{"start":13914.77,"end":13925.818,"text":"再修正東西是民進黨的版本所以說呢在第三條的部分後面的第二項跟第三項是不是要留著是可以討論的這個交給大家來討論再來回到"},{"start":13928.98,"end":13947.051,"text":"我們要回到這個憲法以及財政紀律法還有預算法的規定我們現在都不要用立委的修法來增加政府支支出所以第17條的部分不新設基金就是現行的第17條就春城委的版本把它第三項拿掉"},{"start":13947.931,"end":13971.126,"text":"所以看到我們的版本現在手上這個第三項就沒有了我想村城委員也同意所以在不新設基金的部分是17條拿掉它的第三項然後最後一個我們也通過充分的溝通就是村城委員的第20條原本希望說本法實行後的兩年內各級政府要依本法再去修訂其他的法規但是這個跟行政部門也討論過就不再進行這樣子的做法"},{"start":13975.589,"end":13986.855,"text":"所以說第20條就是刪除所以我再具體說明一次我也跟孟愷委員再說明一次現在呢這個修正動議可以看一下它的第一欄第二條就第一項的"},{"start":13993.439,"end":14008.55,"text":"第一款的這個壯世代的定義等一下大家再斟酌一下就是這個用字的部分第三條的部分第一項它就是用國發會作為主責機關這個OK第二項第三項要不要放可以斟酌"},{"start":14009.511,"end":14029.89,"text":"因為基本上有點墜語啦那17條OK已經拿掉第三項新設基金了然後第20條已經全文刪除了所以我具體說明這四個爭點那至於定義的部分是要用我們那天週五的協商的結論就是年滿55歲以上有工作能力及工作意願之國民"},{"start":14030.791,"end":14059.643,"text":"或者是卓院長的55歲以上健康有工作能力且為生產者及消費者之國民這個大家一起來發揮智慧把文字再磋商一下所以我應當沒有遺漏我們之前溝通的很多我想我們都很善意很希望促成這件事情所以村長委員我的說法應當都是很清楚都是符合我們的私謠現在請國民黨團發言然後如果發言完畢大家都能達成共識我們就簽好不好請國民黨團簽"},{"start":14062.179,"end":14078.234,"text":"好 感謝主席以及我們今天學校的代表我想為什麼我剛剛會在吳司藥委員在發言的時候特別有在請教是因為司藥委員在講的時候我們手上只有拿到一個是修正動議一個是再修正動議"},{"start":14079.355,"end":14101.848,"text":"但是一直從過去到現在我們並沒有從我們的這個這一次的壯世代的這個部分是只有主題案本席也是主題案人之一那今天不管是各部會出來其實部會行政部門也沒有行政部門版本所以說我們今天在立一個專法的時候行政部門今天我不知道行政部門態度是什麼"},{"start":14102.928,"end":14131.365,"text":"我這樣放眼望去好像也沒有部會首長來那今天行政部門的態度我也不知道是什麼那我們過去好幾個專法其實也是這樣子就如同我們上禮拜我們大家在討論這個公益階比者保護法就從委員會開始討論的時候就只有國民黨團的版本國民黨個別委員版本民眾黨個別委員版本然後行政部門沒有版本民進黨的版本直到最後在上上禮拜的院會的時候才擺出來"},{"start":14132.125,"end":14159.287,"text":"所以我說如果說你真的有版本的話其實大家願意就條文論條文大家拿出來討論我覺得這是好事這才有實質的意義我覺得這也還是朝野協商的目的跟宗旨那今天樂見啦就說再修正東西是民進黨團的版本今天拿出來我覺得幾個有爭點的部分有把它聚焦了我覺得這是好事那我不知道說民進黨團的版本出來前行政部門有沒有看過"},{"start":14161.249,"end":14190.533,"text":"行政部門等一下肯定要表達一下意見等一下請行政部門國發會行政部門等一下肯定要表達意見因為行政部門現在主管機關是國發會喔上個禮拜五的最後的協商就三黨黨團的一個協商共識從原本希望是行政院下面設專責辦公室到變成是說國發會那國發會在這短短幾天裡面執政黨黨團有沒有跟你們溝通或說執政黨黨團提出來這版本你們有沒有了解或說行政部門有沒有相對應的版本"},{"start":14192.136,"end":14204.467,"text":"那這個是第一個部分那第二個部分就是說如果說以年齡狀世代的這個年齡區分的話現在看到民進黨團的這個版本是指45歲到65歲我覺得這定義有一點點太過於狹隘就是說45歲以上"},{"start":14212.677,"end":14231.908,"text":"在場應該都是壯士代了我在四年我也壯士代了在45歲當然可以稱為壯士代也不是一個壞事也是一個很值得教的事可是到65歲又不是壯士代了那65歲以上要叫什麼這個初老壯士代"},{"start":14232.908,"end":14249.979,"text":"還是什麼所以說其實這一個部分我覺得這如果說45歲到65歲這就有一點點太過狹隘這20年其實我們一直講的壯世代的用意是什麼就在於是說現在的高齡化社會是不是不可逆的趨勢確實是不可逆的趨勢"},{"start":14250.899,"end":14275.827,"text":"那我們怎麼樣來讓這不可逆趨式化助力化主力為助力就是我們希望是65歲以上我們原本是退休的這個沒有辦法有生產力的這一些勞動力我們可以轉變成有生產力的積極投入的勞動力所以我們才會有這個創世代相關的一個產業的一個條例所以說我們才會希望是說一開始的講法會是以"},{"start":14277.833,"end":14305.032,"text":"55歲以上只要你有工作意願的國民都可以納入當作是壯士代75歲很身體健康硬朗想要工作也都可以稱為壯士代我們的總召70多歲柯總召70多歲了還是一條活龍還是覺得說現在是他這個精力最旺盛的時候要貢獻國家所以他也是壯士代的一個代表對不對所以"},{"start":14305.872,"end":14319.762,"text":"我覺得這個部分是範圍可以再放寬一點範圍可以再放寬一點那主管機關是國發會所以國發會一定要講清楚你現在看的不管是我們原本的版本還是"},{"start":14320.863,"end":14347.373,"text":"吳春城委員這邊民眾黨所提的修正動議或是民進黨今天所拿出來的再修正動議你們是不是都可以接受還是有哪幾條你們不能接受我覺得你們先把你們不能接受的調做因為我相信你們不能接受應該是比較少那我們針對不能接受的部分我們聚焦來討論可能這樣會比較凝聚共識那也許也就可以化解很多的一個誠意非常好以上謝謝非常好非常好"},{"start":14349.615,"end":14370.373,"text":"請國發會的彭副主委請發言請求發言嗎嘉賓委員您稍待一下好嗎我什麼時候可以發言您馬上就可以發言了還有一個因為我是尊重你看你旁邊昆城兄又舉手我很為難因為它是這樣的循環的您知道我的意思嗎我知道你很急著發言我們彭副主委發言完你就發言好嗎好 請彭副主委請"},{"start":14373.253,"end":14394.668,"text":"謝謝院長 也謝謝各位委員侯孟凱委員善意提醒不接受的部分或是你認為衝刑比方要先提出來我是不是先針對第一個就是國發會確實已經理解就是把專責機構改為國家發展委員會這個國發會確實已經有所理解那第二點是在那個"},{"start":14396.169,"end":14411.386,"text":"第三條的部分後面第一項第二項在第三項前兩項那個後面是不是可以不需要特別講出來講的那麼清楚那再來是在第21條有關公佈實施日期"},{"start":14416.571,"end":14435.603,"text":"國防院這邊能夠準備的時間 抱歉主席抱歉我也抱歉我一樣您剛講的是以哪一個版本的第一第三條的第一項第二項再修正動議的再修正動議對你要講清楚我們才有辦法看再修正動議的版本的第三條"},{"start":14441.139,"end":14464.335,"text":"也就是剛剛那個吳思耀委員所提到的二三項你現在手上拿的是民進黨團吳思耀上面有蓋一個章民進黨在修正而已好請繼續好那最後就是那個因為我們需要一些時間做一些準備所以在那個第20條有本法制公佈日時施行是不是可以改成是本法制施行日期由行政院定制"},{"start":14467.143,"end":14489.986,"text":"就以上這比較有差異的部分跟各位委員報告好謝謝彭副主委寶貴的發言接下來鍾嘉斌委員請發言國民黨團請準備好謝謝要稱您院長不是稱主席因為只有院長可以組織朝野協商那首先要表達跟院長做一個告白很卑微的一個請託現在我變得很悲憤了"},{"start":14491.107,"end":14505.06,"text":"打從我第一次參加院長主持的抄寫商就差點被請出去我也不是新科立委當了第三屆委員能不能出席抄寫商當然可以但是後來呢院長呢好不容易修改了規則讓我們擔任召委的可以來發言"},{"start":14506.576,"end":14526.149,"text":"上會期的立法院職權刑事法討論到國情報告專章的時候我也跟院長請求在我們本屆的委員當中當過第三屆或者曾經當過國大代表聽過總統國情報告的應該沒有幾個我想要來貢獻一些心得還是被院長拒絕了"},{"start":14527.009,"end":14548.085,"text":"今天好不容易在這裡已經坐了快三個小時了好不容易可以來這邊做個發言其實過去常常看到院長很親切堆滿笑容關心我們的服裝關心我們有沒有受傷但是我希望院長能夠更關心委員專業問政在他行使職權的時候給予必要的尊重以及給予他的權利"},{"start":14548.905,"end":14574.093,"text":"那我想呢過去剛剛之前在討論的議題其實草野協商經常不能對焦有時候有人會說裝睡的人叫不行但是我很不喜歡這樣講因為如果我們在跟對方溝通對方聽不懂我先檢討自己是不是我講的不夠明白舉例來講身為民意代表我最常接觸的就是農民"},{"start":14575.083,"end":14598.133,"text":"但是你要告訴農民他對政府的政策了解嗎舉一個很簡單的例子老農津貼我想在場的幾位委員可能蔓玉珍委員在台灣停留時間要短其他都會的委員老農津貼多少錢農民跟他講現在調8000多塊他很開心過沒幾天他跟你說他老農津貼被取消了他說我農報有了嗎"},{"start":14600.114,"end":14605.527,"text":"但是我們跟他講 抱歉喔阿伯啊你老婆的籠包跟你的老籠電梯是兩回事啊但是我們能夠責怪他嗎"},{"start":14609.508,"end":14636.061,"text":"老年農民福利津貼暫行條例以及農民健康保險條例規範的是不一樣的事情我問阿伯說請問農保你有多少?他說三千多塊三千多塊錢3024是半年的一個月才繳504塊其中大部分是全民健康保險的保費他真正農民健康保險的保費只有78塊錢但他一個月要領超過8000塊的老農津貼"},{"start":14638.142,"end":14662.641,"text":"說清楚了他就理解他繳的農保的保費跟他領的老農今天是兩碼子事同樣的情況在我們今天的協商剛剛又發生了一直有人在討論到說我們警校人員很辛苦退職的警校人員應該給予照顧這個包括我們現在壯世代我們要談年輕世代跟青壯世代的世代公平那要講這個怎麼講呢"},{"start":14664.656,"end":14689.551,"text":"可能我們剛剛的官員N幾字啦 提撥字啦 抱歉喔可能連退休的警消都聽不太懂我們在選區 我經常遇到的擁有會什麼叫擁有會 你知道嗎 不是游泳的泳喔是退休的消防人員組成的擁有會我在他們聚會的時候 也跟他們提過說這個事情他們說很好啊 我們退休了啊 我們年輕的時候躲打兵啊現在呢 應該跟著一起調"},{"start":14690.885,"end":14716.824,"text":"我要說明的是N幾字可能人家聽不懂我打個比方好了今天有個營造建材公司的大老闆他手下的員工有在工地工地的也有在工廠做建材的也有在辦公室裡面做財務的也有騎著機車開著汽車到處去拉客戶跑業務的今天如果到半年中尾呀他說很好啊我們在工地的最辛苦請他們吃一桌一萬元"},{"start":14718.22,"end":14725.989,"text":"其次在工廠裡面的24小時輪班請他吃8000塊一桌然後如果在辦公室吹冷氣的報表的6000塊一桌"},{"start":14728.945,"end":14750.691,"text":"至於跑業務的雖然曬著太陽但是你們有抽成所以就跟院長一樣說的吃漢堡麥當勞吃披薩就可以了你說這樣公不公平沒有人可以講話為什麼錢是老闆出的老闆要給不同部門的人看他對公司的貢獻分別給他多少的獎勵那叫做恩己志"},{"start":14751.789,"end":14761.778,"text":"但是現在的提撥這是什麼軍人一個水庫公教警校一個水庫大家各有各的在職期間要提撥的費率"},{"start":14762.981,"end":14789.481,"text":"大家都繳簡單講你可以想成是剛剛講的那個題目軍人是怎樣在職期間提撥退休之後吃軍人就像我們餐廳搭伙一樣今天人家跟軍人搭伙吃的是軍糧你跟公教警校搭伙吃的是公教警校的餐點但是差別是什麼現職人員繳依照這個規定搭伙繳錢但是呢退休之後才去餐廳用餐"},{"start":14790.442,"end":14813.201,"text":"這時候突然警校跳出來說我在職期間交的錢跟公教警校是一樣的但是我要吃跟軍人一樣的餐廳這公平嗎這當然不公平啊不是不公平是根本搞錯方向了提撥制是根據你在職期間你根據大家同樣的規則提繳的這些金額在你退休的時候來享用"},{"start":14814.002,"end":14837.048,"text":"所以錦霄在辛苦,他其實跟軍人在適用的退伏,就是不同的規則拿來做對應,實在是風馬牛不相及但是突然有人提到說,欸錦霄也跟軍人一樣中委員嘉賓,我們現在是院長,我說很悲憤,你要我繼續悲憤下去,你能不能讓我講完剛剛委員現在講的時候,我講的內容你怎麼知道跟壯士在沒有關係"},{"start":14840.284,"end":14857.401,"text":"請尊重委員的發言權啊所以呢我要說的是說其實我們在談到這些制度的時候我們要講得清楚明白讓當事人聽得懂不然你講了半天警校覺得他的付出很大他的很辛勞啊但是你看一看他的薪水我們單單講這個句話我們過去在地方上服務"},{"start":14860.323,"end":14888.2,"text":"很多人會來請求人事請託我遇到過警校要調職的我遇到過寓所管理員想要改換不要在寓所管理員工作的我遇到過那些比較重要的保護性社工他們的家長很擔心自己的女兒去當保護性社工有生命危險有安全的違律這些都告訴我們其實公教警校的工作內容不一而足不見得誰都比較好"},{"start":14888.9,"end":14907.091,"text":"每個人都要面對的困難包括說連老人常照機構要照三班制輪我們為無辜的長官在這裡這些人也覺得很辛苦啊那這些人很辛苦是什麼時候辛苦在職期間辛苦啊所以這些在照顧機構的這些人夜間有夜點啊"},{"start":14908.377,"end":14921.708,"text":"這些保運社工,他也會有一些家籍啊這些寓所管理員,他們有他們工作上,國家另外給他安排的所以我就問我們擁有會的退休警消我問他說,現在阿伯啊,你已經70幾歲了你現在有什麼危險?你跟我們留下的公營、運行、退休的、護理你們兩個都70幾歲,你們有什麼危險?"},{"start":14932.242,"end":14958.613,"text":"過去他在銀行工作吹冷氣比較舒服你在拿著苗子火場打火你很辛苦那個圍牢都已經表達進去了我們看到所以在警校的部分支援遷休年齡比人家早他50歲可以支援退休月退的年齡他55歲也是比別人早10年那我們來看一下為什麼一定要跟軍人比軍人怎麼比我隨便講一個好了上位"},{"start":14959.801,"end":14982.852,"text":"上位居然他在上位的薪資是四萬兩千四百零五元可是對應同等級的警政四階警專畢業做到警政四階他可以領九萬三千一百八十元為什麼有這個差別很簡單嘛因為上位他停年十五年他二十二歲出來任官他可能如果是念那種專科班的就像我們院長可能過去有知道"},{"start":14983.932,"end":15011.264,"text":"從任官開始就開始起算了起算到你任官滿15年上位滿15年你可能不到35歲你的年資當然只能領到多少42409但是警察他就在這警政事階他做到了55歲他可以領月退他的奉典是525點他可以領到93184元不是因為軍人的待遇警察的待遇比軍人好是因為兩個人的服務年限不同"},{"start":15011.764,"end":15034.22,"text":"因為年資不同造成最後退休時候他領的薪資所得是不一樣的一個是93,180一個42,405誰比較高高超過一倍以上啊但是軍人的福利待遇不好嗎但是考量到他年資他的從事服務的年齡他退伍的時候他當然會跟警消不太一樣"},{"start":15035.06,"end":15052.707,"text":"所以我們這裡不斷在提醒說今天在84年N級制改變為提撥制之後我們到底在面對這個不同世代之間我們要求取他在職人員跟他退休之後享受的這些權利要回歸到他的本職"},{"start":15055.469,"end":15066.844,"text":"軍人的退伍是一套制度公教警消是一個制度不能混為一談至於在職期間的圍牢公教警消當中的警消在職期間的圍牢國家已經表達了"},{"start":15068.018,"end":15085.791,"text":"那麼軍人他的圍牢國家也表達了考量到軍人的服務年資比較短所以他退休的時候他的所得替代率是跟人家不一樣的那麼現在我們要把警消的所得替代率從本來應該到65要提升回到80"},{"start":15086.952,"end":15105.411,"text":"那這個80%大家有機會去看一看國民黨所提出來的條文版本它的附表連這個80%連35年的計算都沒有對容啊所以我是覺得說我們修法要有一個完善的過程那今天說到壯世代我看院長一直欺騙我說壯世代沒有錯"},{"start":15106.552,"end":15128.265,"text":"壯世代的擴張讓整個全民都能夠去體察到他們是對國家對社會是有用的這個我們都支持認同這樣的精神但是一個國家要能夠永續經營能永續發展必須讓不同的世代他們都覺得有世代公平可言所以我還是要拜託今天我們在這裡朝野協商我也不曉得說是不是在"},{"start":15129.105,"end":15149.517,"text":"在雞同鴨講但是我很樂意不管是什麼題目我們能夠針對問題一個一個來解不要說對方跟我們講的話沒有對焦說人家裝睡覺不醒其實我不這樣講我希望我們能夠跟全民的來解釋說明當國家進行重大政策改革的時候用人民聽懂懂的話"},{"start":15150.778,"end":15164.585,"text":"壯士代也好或者是警察人員人事條例也好今天好不容易院長容易讓我講警察人員人事條例是我們司法法治委員主審跟內政聯席結果呢我們司法法治的召委在這裡請求要發言從剛剛"},{"start":15166.366,"end":15190.042,"text":"三點開始到現在快三個小時我們才有這個機會來表達然後可能主席要說啊啊這個案子剛已經協商完畢了對每次院長組織的協商啊只要有討論啊有形式上討論就好有沒有真實的對話您在所不論所以在這裡呢除了卑微除了悲憤還是要一個悲憫的心情請院長體恤我們全國人民他們繳了稅"},{"start":15191.303,"end":15218.144,"text":"我們立了法我們協商的時候要講他們聽得懂的話讓他們理解會有什麼後果有什麼代價而不是在這邊形式上過水然後明天表決搶臉過關就算了蔣編委員你發言開心嗎我感覺他好像算好你還是發言了嘛好不好我還是很尊重很尊重我真的很希望尊重大家要不然我哭上了臉嗎我希望你不是大家開心嗎好"},{"start":15220.325,"end":15237.029,"text":"那個三個黨團黨編吼,魏思堯的,我現在協商結論已經達成公式了嗎?那我們國民黨團可以發言一位,民進黨團發言兩位,然後台灣民主黨可以再發言一位,請"},{"start":15240.54,"end":15266.009,"text":"沒關係 我們邊發言你邊去修嘛 好不好OK我想院長這個壯士代治部法案其實我們在1月3號剛才院長有念過那個協商其實大家都講得很清楚就是針對這個不設基金還有那個工作能力還有工作意願這部分大家把定義一樣還有就是第二條的年齡定義為55歲以上"},{"start":15268.47,"end":15292.086,"text":"那麼都形成共識了那組織機關就改為國發會所以今天我們看到吳尊成委員他的一個提案就針對這幾個那天達成了黨團的共識他提出再修正動議那我們今天又看到這個國發會其實是國發會的版本剛才講說是民進黨的版本其實就是國發會的意識"},{"start":15293.727,"end":15309.04,"text":"那其實我們就是吳孫成委員已經針對我們黨團形成的共識的四個條文他已經修訂的非常清楚了比如說第二條就是指說壯士代就是指55歲以上的國民嘛"},{"start":15309.58,"end":15326.902,"text":"這很清楚了另外就第三條主管機關就改為國發會那另外就第17條就是他的這個基金就這個也把它刪除另外就是對他的施行日期就講說本法是公佈日施行"},{"start":15328.043,"end":15352.47,"text":"這個都已經達成共識了所以我想我們希望說我們就聚焦啦我們不要再去就沒有這一的條文是不是我們就不用再討論就沒有意見了就針對這幾個條文我們文字來做修正好謝謝林士明書記長大致上已經答的差不多他們在最後做一點微調台灣民眾黨團就發言嗎不發了好那我們休息五分鐘請調"},{"start":15361.44,"end":15376.454,"text":"那我們現在進入第四案我們第三案就等我們那個三個黨的主要婦人在協商之後然後我們再來簽字好不好來謝謝我們現在進入第四案"},{"start":15398.103,"end":15405.874,"text":"我再拿下來嘛好,各位黨團幹部謝謝各位列席官員,請回,謝謝,謝謝大家"},{"start":15409.986,"end":15431.339,"text":"我跟大家党团报告一下我们现在进行复议案跟财团法人公共电视推举社会公正人士的协商第四案跟第五案要跟大家报告一下公共电视我们巡力办理公正人士原则上就是由国民党七位民进党七位台湾民众党一位推举社会公正人士组成"},{"start":15432.299,"end":15451.494,"text":"那在這裡,我們有準備一個草稿,我先宣讀一下,請工作同仁把草稿發下去如果各位同意的話,就請我們準備來簽字,那現在我來念一遍給大家聽一下就沒問題,第四項怎麼辦?"},{"start":15453.049,"end":15456.132,"text":"有關行政院罕請推舉社會公正人士組成財產法人公共電視文化事業基金會董事監察人審查委員會議案"},{"start":15475.871,"end":15495.567,"text":"以政黨比例由國民黨台推派七位民進黨團推派七位台灣民眾黨團推舉一位組成名單請於一月十六號星期四中午十二點前送至議事處會診預時視同放棄請問各位黨團幹部沒有意見沒有意見好那就請簽字"},{"start":15497.088,"end":15506.697,"text":"院長你招禮箱應該最後一個簽我最後一個簽來簽請各種招簽好謝謝沒有意見我們現在回到我們附議案自由的"},{"start":15535.992,"end":15558.986,"text":"我們現在繼續進行要跟各位黨團幹部報告一下我們處理復議案的部分以本院職權刑事法相關規定復議案要列在院會報告事項接著要交全院委會審查審查時得邀請行政院院長說明審查完畢後由院會進行記名投票表決"},{"start":15560.908,"end":15579.919,"text":"另外,副議案在立法院的處理時間,憲法明文規定15天之內要處理完畢所以針對副議案的處理,我們要把握憲法規定這15天的時間,完成副議案的處理以下,就請各黨團幹部表達一下對副議案的意見請柯總召先發言,請第一個"},{"start":15586.94,"end":15611.864,"text":"有關於呼籲案,當然行政院對於立法院所修訂的法令,認為有治安難行,所以要提出呼籲,這憲法規定了而且行政院院長一定要來,不是得邏輯,行政院院長一定要來,才有備詢因為他認為治安難行,憲法才有規定,所以不是得邏輯,行政院院長一定要來備詢,這憲法規定了那不然我們跟誰講話?怎麼執行?"},{"start":15616.638,"end":15638.615,"text":"院長吧,這點先講,第二個有關於過去我們今年的國會改革,應該是兩天嘛兩天然後完畢以後表決嘛,不管怎麼樣我們要控制就是說一定要讓憲法法律實驗裡面完成但是呢"},{"start":15647.176,"end":15672.281,"text":"有時間內必須送人去完審查嘛但是審查的時候可以延五天,加起來是五天嘛反正這個照憲法延出來就好了,我是覺得那請硬幫幫,請你一下,明天送程式委員會去處理這個不處理怎麼可以"},{"start":15675.971,"end":15702.159,"text":"注意最好,我們贊成吧因為等一下那個蔡宇跟李昆城還要發言,稍微等一下麻煩請國民黨團請發言請國民黨團對副議案請表達意見這個可能請院長我們先把大方向先要定下來"},{"start":15705.011,"end":15732.6,"text":"大方向就是到底哪一天要處理我覺得這個事情要先確定好那事實上剛剛柯總召講的我們競表啦競表之息啊但是欠然同意啊因為這個憲法訴訟法他執行單位是司法院叫行政院院長來這裡說做什麼樣的一個說明"},{"start":15736.008,"end":15761.828,"text":"做個什麼樣的一個說明到時會計法也沒有請行政院長來做這個報告所以這是風馬牛不相及的事情而且法律規定的非常清楚是得不是因所以這應該是本院內部來自行處理就好了針對行政院所提出的賦予我們自己來處理就好但是重點還是時間要先確定了"},{"start":15762.921,"end":15788.483,"text":"好不好時間先確定那我想因為柯總召這個法例高深所以我們必須時間上要榮有餘力能夠處理好不好謝謝謝謝副總召的發言台灣民眾黨團要發言好我們接下來請李坤成委員請發言因為他"},{"start":15791.325,"end":15816.396,"text":"好 來 謝謝院長那剛剛有提到就是說這個復議那復議當然要請行政院院長來立法院做說明因為復議他的這個這次限訴法修改之後大概有90%以上人民的這個申請釋憲的權利受到阻礙了那基於這一點那當然這個行政院有權利來這一個也有義務來這個立法院來做說明這是第一點"},{"start":15819.537,"end":15847.932,"text":"那第二點就是說我記得我們在12月20號已經通過了包含限訴法、選罷法、裁判法那我這邊剛好院長在這邊我也問一下院長那為什麼這個12月20號通過了這一個三個法案三個法律案之後那我們立法院只送出了這個限訴法那關於這個選罷法跟裁判法不送出去那請問一下我們的召委有這麼大的權力嗎那尤其我是在財政委員會"},{"start":15848.812,"end":15865.301,"text":"我也問過了這個召委陳玉珍我就說你當時候這個這個《財務法》不送出去的這個主要的原因主要的理由是說因為這個有可能這個114年的這個總預算要重編那所以他就扣住不發"},{"start":15866.301,"end":15890.416,"text":"但是現在這個不論是這個財政部長或是組計長都已經說得很清楚了114年度的這個總運算不會再重編所以呢陳玉珍召委他扣住了這個理由已經不存在啦那為什麼現在我們這個立法院還扣住這一個不論是選罷法或是裁判法不發那請問一下這是召委的意見還是院長你的意見"},{"start":15890.976,"end":15917.387,"text":"我覺得剛好在這個時候要把它說清楚啦你法律案通過了你就要送出去啊那接下來你不論說你行政院或是我們立法院要採取復議 釋憲或是其他的這個救濟的手段那都是符合憲政的原則原理在做嘛我們立法院沒有這麼大的權力不論是召委或是院長都可以把這個立法院已經三讀通過的法案扣住不送出去我請院長也答覆一下"},{"start":15918.027,"end":15920.329,"text":"主席還有我們各委員因為我想今天我們在討論就是我們如何處理這個復議案那確實我們有時間上的一個急迫性那剛才也有特別講到就是說因為我們還有總預算"},{"start":15940.569,"end":15942.911,"text":"說實在我們連總預算連協商都還沒有開始在進行協商那更不要說我們要用有限的院會的時間來處理我們的總預算我想總預算應該是我們全體國民更關切的尤其之前包含行政院都口口聲聲希望總預算能夠盡快的"},{"start":15962.543,"end":15982.771,"text":"能夠在立法院能夠做議事處理那另外我們剛才也講到也還卡在院長他院長要去美國參加那個川普的就職典禮那我們也希望最好能夠在一些比較重大的法案都能夠盡速的能夠把它完成"},{"start":15983.411,"end":15999.217,"text":"好那所以現在剛才在講的部分就說那到底我們這個報議案要不要邀請行政院長來做報告那這個事實上在法律上其實是得而不是因所以"},{"start":15999.597,"end":16025.67,"text":"也就是說我們在現在這麼大的一個時間壓力下那麼如果我們其實可以不用請這個行政院長來報告我們一樣能夠做出審查那當然這樣子的一個程序完全合法也合憲所以到時候可能請我們的柯總召柯大法官真的不用再講說有沒有違憲之餘所以就說我們如果"},{"start":16027.711,"end":16056.127,"text":"没有请行政院长来做说明不但合法而且在过去的案例我想因为柯总召在立法院这么多年当年在会计法会计法来做复议案的时候柯总召也是总召当时也是就是不用让行政院长没有来报告而我们立法院当时的立法院也完成了"},{"start":16056.787,"end":16071.609,"text":"附议案的审查那对于我们立法院来讲本来就是这样因为刚才总统说有时候我们可以创先例但是我们有先例我们也可以原例来办理这个先做这样说明好另外就说"},{"start":16072.35,"end":16094.923,"text":"那麼在一些復議案比如說我們在上一次的就是國會改革的復議案我們有請行政院長來做說明因為這邊牽涉到一些行政部門的配合所以當時請行政院長來做說明那確實是合理的那我們這一次是針對限訴法限訴法的主管機關是誰"},{"start":16100.928,"end":16114.005,"text":"憲法出來的基本不是行政院即便我退一萬步來說即便有任何的至愛難行之處這應該也是司法院的職權"},{"start":16115.387,"end":16143.557,"text":"如果一直在強調說我們立法院我們手不能伸那麼長我們不要去影響這個司法院我們要確立這個五權分立那請問一下如果今天針對限訴法我們一再的強調說不行一定要讓行政院長來報告那請問一下司法院難道是行政院所管轄的嗎司法院難道是行政院的這個司法部嗎不是嘛"},{"start":16145.498,"end":16163.355,"text":"所以也就是說在以所謂的五權分立按照這個我們民進黨以及現在的我們的行政院所講的這樣的一個要尊重五權分立同樣的你行政院不尊重五權分立啊而且老師說我想請問在這一次提出復議案之前"},{"start":16168.379,"end":16179.843,"text":"行政院說了 說了好多話我們也沒有看到行政院跟司法院有什麼樣的討論我沒有看到他們任何的討論討論也不用閉門會議對不對你反正都覺得立法院都是違憲 毀憲亂政你們大家可以公開說我們討論之後把立法院大罵一頓所以我們共同要提出復議案但是我也沒有看到所以我覺得第一個"},{"start":16197.828,"end":16212.333,"text":"我們就法論法第一個我們沒有必要一定要請行政院長來做說明我們即便沒有請行政院長來做說明合法第二個立法院之前有沒有"},{"start":16212.933,"end":16232.79,"text":"前例呢也有我刚才也特别提到我想柯总知道应该脑筋应该很清楚应该记忆都很清楚第三个如果你认为这个是违反权力分立原则那我们更不需要行政院来做说明那么我们前院委员会过去也有案例好我们各党派"},{"start":16233.39,"end":16247.482,"text":"派代表來做討論之後再做審查這個都是有潛力辦理的而且呢另外我們真的也念茲在茲因為我們的院會真的真的非常有限而且又必須在15天內好完成整個的這個復譽的表決那說實"},{"start":16252.967,"end":16275.14,"text":"再加上我們總預算現在也還要還沒有開始正式的我們連協商都沒有協商如果我們真的覺得總預算非常重要的話我們在復議案我們只要完備法定程序那麼我想在整個的程序表決最後的結果它絕對都是合法跟合憲以上"},{"start":16276.927,"end":16281.171,"text":"那針對這次的復議案剛剛王宏威這個首席書記長他有講到這個2013年的會計法99之一當年沒有行政院長列席那我覺得"},{"start":16293.362,"end":16318.962,"text":"要跟院長我們是不是要還原當年2013年的狀況當年是在處理特別費的儲罪那儲罪的對象有包括行政所長還有包括大學的教授那可是在修法的時候卻產生一個很大的錯誤就是說修法的最後三讀通過的條文卻少了教這個字教師的教"},{"start":16319.842,"end":16338.915,"text":"所以當時通過的會計法99之一後來只處理到行政首長沒有處理到大學的教授所以大家嘩然啦哇大家一直罵所以那個時候也是經過朝野協商之後由行政院長提出復議那立法院在最快的時間內那就把這一個復議案讓他復議案是有通過的"},{"start":16345.6,"end":16373.038,"text":"那後來做條文的修正再把大學教授補進去所以那是那個時空背景那所以如果以撇開會計法99條當年2013年的狀況我們再來看歷次的復議案呢歷次的復議案我從時間序來說2002年的財政收支劃分法他有邀請行政院長列席然後他有發言是由民進黨4人 國民黨4人 親民黨4人 台聯2人 武黨1人"},{"start":16376.3,"end":16390.648,"text":"在2003年的公民投票法的附議案那也有邀請行政院長列席發言人數是民進黨六人 國民黨六人 親民黨四人台聯 無盟都是兩人在於2004年的319的這個"},{"start":16394.05,"end":16421.217,"text":"槍擊的真相調查委員會一樣是邀請行政院長列席列席後發言人數民進黨8人 國民黨4人 親民黨4人台聯 文盟都2人在2007年的農會法跟漁會法的附議案一樣是邀請行政院長列席那發言人數當然也是就是每個政黨各推薦1人那2014年地政事法51條的修正案"},{"start":16422.037,"end":16451.326,"text":"的復議案一樣是邀請行政院長列席發言人數國民黨七民進黨七台人二五黨幾聯盟一人所以一直到今年的這個國會擴權的這個案內那發言人數就是國民黨十一民進黨十一民眾黨兩人那這個是發生在院長你當院長的年代所以我想既然院長你在主持這個立法院的議事既然有這樣的一個慣例"},{"start":16452.046,"end":16479.275,"text":"你也有處理過一次的復議案那我們認為啦 院長你就用跟國會 這個是2024 6月11號的復議案我們希望院長你就用同樣的處理方式來處理這一次的復議案 好不好謝謝好 那個 稍等一下那個國民黨團有沒有要繼續發言國民黨團有沒有要繼續發言柯總召要再一次發言沒有齁 我們請柯總召請"},{"start":16481.038,"end":16485.784,"text":"院長,對於說我們是不是一定要請行政院長來報告我想我們在立法院職權刑事法第33條規定的非常清楚"},{"start":16500.021,"end":16519.011,"text":"依照例子法第33條的規定全院文會審查時得由立法院邀請行政院院長列席說明並不是柯總召開講的說因這個邀請行政院長到我們立法院來做說明這第一點我要續明的另外就是對於說我們"},{"start":16523.88,"end":16551.717,"text":"對於說我們這個如果司法院的限訴法這樣的一個修法是不是跟行政院他的職務有關這部分我想還是要再次來跟我們社會大眾來說明清楚如果我們這一次邀請行政院長到立法院來列席做報告這個已經違反權力分立的原則也就是說行政院你不能月出代包來這個就司法院他的職長的法律由行政院長來做報告"},{"start":16553.118,"end":16570.95,"text":"行政立法司法是三權分立的互相立署的互相尊重的所以互不立署的所以有關司法院執掌的法律法律案我們立法院定定之後送到行政院"},{"start":16571.71,"end":16592.2,"text":"那行政院你只有說這個對於這個立法院的法案你予以尊重但是他有沒有涉及到違憲這部分我想不是或者你要提認為自愛男性要提復議不應該是由行政院你來提出而應該是會同司法院來做很詳盡的說明之後你再來提復議"},{"start":16593.16,"end":16616.796,"text":"但是這個法案我們從到現在為止我們都沒有看到司法院跟行政院有會嫌共同來這個做商議所以行政院長有沒有必要來這個就很清楚了所以我們認為站在權力分立的一個原則的情況之下我們立法院依法是有據的也有利可循我們是可以不用請行政院長道遠來說明謝謝林市民署長歡迎請柯總召請"},{"start":16621.716,"end":16644.732,"text":"院長、各位委員、同仁這是一個非常嚴肅的事情這個是在憲法徵收條文第三條裡面規定的請大家歡迎徵收條文第三條規定請這邊對於立法院的決議法律案、立法案、條約案、法律案包括任何治案來行的地方得經總統,得經總統何可"},{"start":16648.695,"end":16675.487,"text":"他得經總統合格,總統已經合格了嘛,一該法案送行政院10日內那法案到行政院已經10天,一定要請行政院,一定要向議員提復議案你說這個法案通過已經出了總統到行政院,行政院收到10日內一定要提出復議案"},{"start":16677.228,"end":16698.903,"text":"那實際上也照憲法的規定提出來,最後一天提出來,所以當然立法院要處理了嘛所以這個立法院處理要在15天內完成,這個照憲法徵求條例第三條來看就好了所以我們今天不知道,民事委員、黃文維委員在講什麼?沒有錯"},{"start":16700.471,"end":16720.717,"text":"這個會議案會在前委員會來處理但是他現在所談的職業刑事法讓前委員會得邀請那不一樣這憲法層次的因為要改為前委員會所以憲法層次一定要照憲法來做第一個我不知道"},{"start":16722.438,"end":16751.254,"text":"用這種來阻擋行政院長來做他那麼自然來行嘛啊為什麼行政院有關係當然立法院也有關係啊立法院可以提復議案啊我們立法院可以提事件啦可以提事件啦立法院事件以後行政院行政院也可以提事件但是呢提事件復議案不是必要的條件行政院認為自然來行他可以"},{"start":16752.458,"end":16772.655,"text":"跳過呼籲案也可以,他直接提事件是可以的因為立法院也可以提事件但是呢因為這個憲法輸送會影響到每一個院的每一個院都是憲法機關每一個院在處理他的法案他預算的時候,乃至於他事件作為上"},{"start":16773.416,"end":16796.747,"text":"都有相當嚴重的影響度所以一定要邀請行政院長來他既然已經來了他說我要來,他已經送來你不要也不行了我想比較重要就是說在憲法規定裡面數天內完成嘛剛才王國威也講到這一點我們都守了這個規定所以各位請不要放心因為"},{"start":16799.44,"end":16820.357,"text":"你就照憲法的程序來做就好了那至於剛才所談到就是說會計法那一次修正我在場的嘛那一次會計法修正就是說因為很多大學教授院長很多人因為研究計畫"},{"start":16821.857,"end":16842.752,"text":"有問題,那報章發起相同考錯,那澳神全國所有大學院院校校長、藍心理教授、院長所有人幾千個人都中了都要變成通過這條例,有時那時候黃世民講總長的時候在搞嘛,後來二一三馬上正正的把黃世民"},{"start":16844.013,"end":16872.793,"text":"在法院上他告他告輸了啦他就吹下來了所以說那時候是王世民這個酷吏一直要每一個都要在那邊辦因為他會計上用彈性智慧條例來處理有的時候憂鬱症就吵到我了大學校長那時候我們辦公室多少大學校長幫他太太教來酷訴說這個太嚴重了全國教育界風聲鶴唳每一個人都會中招"},{"start":16873.934,"end":16898.309,"text":"包括柯文哲也是一樣柯文哲的書分比較少只有10萬塊而已所以當初柯文哲因為1450的包裝問題所以他想盡辦法說那他請台北市長這過程我很清楚那柯文哲那時候常常有辦公室那有一天問我怎麼知道?你也是醫生,你怎麼從政?"},{"start":16900.39,"end":16914.443,"text":"所以我馬上跟柯文哲講一句話,你講前幾次就明講就好了他說但是現在價值要AX,我說價值要AX你就去問對啊我問你只有10萬塊而已嘛他說當初那個錢,計劃的錢他把農用去買"},{"start":16923.589,"end":16939.776,"text":"買HD還有幾塊椅子但是那些HD都漏了也丟掉了椅子也找不到了他找不到,找不到實體他就變成偉大文書找不到實體他就變成他們自己的條約找不到變成偉大文書我說沒有關係,電話請你去面對嘛後來問吳寶請回,因為這個數字太小"},{"start":16948.013,"end":16974.074,"text":"當初有很多大學校長因為大學校長他身份比較崇高做很多研究計畫包括他身上有人身上是幾億的三四億都有這是長期以來我們國家在發展科學上國會很多研究計畫補助給學術界做到非休不可但是呢那時候"},{"start":16976.57,"end":16989.252,"text":"朝野,那劉鴻慈當文黨總召,他談一談說這一定要處理,我們黨的會議,很多人都說一定要處理,因為所以呢"},{"start":16991.792,"end":17013.79,"text":"那時候處理的時候,我和我們幹事長,包含是潘文文委員,還有處理長是邱盈盈委員我們是最後黨黨會議開完,大家沒有問題我們來過去簽,我們是最後簽名的台聯那時候是林氏家委員,那工黨當然應該是林氏,我們當時候是中委執行長,那要簽完了"},{"start":17021.612,"end":17043.853,"text":"那看看都沒問題清完,去重新打的時候,那行政宋來居然少打一個叫那重要是叫職員,聽說那是黃世民做手腳的他還要堅持要把每一個人抓去,從貪污職業條例去查辦所以已經仙蘭大破"},{"start":17045.25,"end":17072.406,"text":"那一年通過的時候是2013年5月31號排在最後一個案子那時候王營長最後將近到12點的時候把這法案唸過去這法案暫時通過以後我第一個打給誰打給柯文哲我說這個已經解套了還有很多人在等待這個法案我想的就是過去歷史是千真萬確的那這個柯文哲他既然出來亂講話這也引起信仰大波"},{"start":17075.137,"end":17090.537,"text":"那後來沒有辦法,那重新來就把轎子停回去所以那次不義案,根本趕快抄一箱就可以了就把轎子拿回去,就這樣那行政院的,我現在講就是說我們要視線"},{"start":17092.304,"end":17106.8,"text":"另外一個事件啊另外一個事件要不要行政院來做復原那復原是行政院的部分所以行政院要事件也可以不呼籲也可以直接送像現在我們準備直接送事件的也很多"},{"start":17109.724,"end":17127.705,"text":"所以我今天在這裡講說,我安慰你們都不要擔心,而且你們講話都透過頁頁的憲法規定院長,這是一個非常嚴肅的事情你要怎麼排,大家來看一看,趙承熙我們要去排嘛那可以算出來,未來還有幾次院會嘛"},{"start":17128.61,"end":17149.564,"text":"至少還有四次宴會嘛,我們說要處理其他法案,當然可以處理啊但是我今天要在這裡,對王文維委員有一些更正的說法因為剛才說,你意思是說,總計算就是沒有一次是10月30日要通過那今天是1月幾號?今天是1月6號吧"},{"start":17150.945,"end":17177.837,"text":"我們總運算現在還有哪一個委員會沒有通過你知道嗎就是司法法治委員會我一直拜託國民黨說你們的召委你們要趕快排完我們趕快回來協商吳征軒委員今天當召委他既然總運算不排 法務部還沒排總運算還沒審查他還排一個他還排一個黃國昌要的而且非常離譜的 總統要的法案"},{"start":17184.096,"end":17191.142,"text":"沒有法條都是保留協商這個法案應該要先開冬季會也就是說"},{"start":17196.355,"end":17216.428,"text":"所以今天要講,你共同自己沒有任務者,到現在已經一夜的時候,要一夜的時候你總算還沒排,我要講話你安靜一點好不好?沒有問題我講話你安靜一點好不好?尊重尊重,謝謝老闆這是很關憲政體的問題"},{"start":17222.396,"end":17247.381,"text":"今天黃國昌一排一個妨礙司法公認罪這非常諷刺的黃國昌現在天天在挑戰司法柯P現在犯罪事實非常明顯28.5年他今天說要一一要上街頭要找國民黨一起上街頭要抗議司法不公然後今天排一個妨礙司法公認罪這樣臭死了"},{"start":17247.952,"end":17264.511,"text":"院長今天協商的重點嗎?所以我們就不要再抓狗欺殺你不聽你要說自己講好不好你有幹好講話柯委好謝謝柯董事長請等一下所以我今天要講一個很重要的就是說黃國威你今天一開始要跟胡志堯在吵架說總運算從來沒有奴隸完成的"},{"start":17267.731,"end":17291.682,"text":"在2016民進黨執政以後總算不可能如期完成,因為國民黨一定來叼嘛所以每次都我要去拜託,那時候非常態的時候他說要道歉,我也上來道歉從莊豐家的事情等等,包括日本市民的事情我們冷氣吞吞當總議員在演員會的時候通過但是我們在的時候,我們在的時候坦白講"},{"start":17292.802,"end":17309.848,"text":"我們還是一樣,能夠統一算,10月31號通過就通過然後就是過去當然有這個紀錄啦你是查你本人的歷史第二個就是說,讓黃衛講說公務員挑釁啦公務員挑釁說什麼在罵人"},{"start":17315.878,"end":17336.506,"text":"情緒部長說要處理很環雜公務員調薪,滿世界的退休人員調薪大家注意,全世界沒有一個行業就是說退休各位才調薪但是我們這次調一半還是有,去年再次的事發"},{"start":17337.901,"end":17354.439,"text":"退休2%那現在是3%、1.5%一定有調薪的但是為什麼沒有確定呢?因為我們沒有法治法所以有關於公務員加薪的法治法也可以處理,那個還沒有立法"},{"start":17355.16,"end":17380.095,"text":"但是這個是在總運算編列的時候可以有條性的編進去所以一定有債市和退休都有所以說不確定是因為沒有法之外,但是一定有的因為總運算已經編進去了這一點我要特別講清楚那我要講一下等一下我們今天講到軍工教育問題,因為軍工教育長期來是"},{"start":17383.257,"end":17393.402,"text":"是國民黨鐵票,那還有18%那手都踢太高所以馬英九時段兩次想要聯興改革都沒有成功,也不敢弄"},{"start":17394.608,"end":17414.345,"text":"那好不容易小英總統執政以後,我們把民進改革做完了那現在看你那檢察人員條約又要還改革,而且是違憲的所以今天我要把這些東西肆虛名另外,王滙剛才還提到,柯建民的子弟兵何不長"},{"start":17417.001,"end":17438.298,"text":"當勞動部長他講勞保撥補當然是要撥補請問勞保最後責任終於責任當然是政府嘛那勞保會不會倒坦白講沒有一次來擠的話擠對的話我們的保險都是不會倒的都是會有時間的延長那假如說"},{"start":17439.793,"end":17440.856,"text":"你弄個撥補之罪的話,那勞保誰敢做,因為現在勞工的"},{"start":17447.133,"end":17474.181,"text":"推修的,攘到的,連公務員的地板都沒有,那前兩百年公務員的地板都沒有所以這很清楚,一定要用BOB的來處理25分鐘過了,謝謝啦我今天把這些東西全部講清楚,這是一個很粗大案子的問題,所以有關於本案,請到縣委案子去處理就好好的,謝謝,謝謝柯總,副管理長,您要發言,發言完畢,我們開始進行處理,好請"},{"start":17476.424,"end":17503.543,"text":"今天謝謝柯總召約給我們上了七法全書新法讓我們能夠要準備上路柯市法典我在這裡要跟大家還有這個全院來報告一下第一個我們真的總預算迫在眉睫目前剩下的院會時間"},{"start":17505.74,"end":17517.329,"text":"尤其柯總召一直不斷地試圖要影響我們審查預算的這個期程一直希望說能不能1月15號1月15號這個院會就能夠這個會期結束"},{"start":17523.522,"end":17541.691,"text":"柯總召大法師他一再提這個15號能不能結束可是依照他現在這種態勢我們也很希望配合啦但他如果真的15號會期要結束那我們很多的事情要盡快推動包括我們的總預算總預算迫在眉睫"},{"start":17549.184,"end":17576.196,"text":"所以我想柯大法師一直在講我們要早點結束我們也都很希望早點結束但是呢如果我們很多該處理的事沒有處理好尤其是總預算我想這個誰都承擔不起這是重中之重所以我建請院長這個趕快裁定哪一天來做這個復議案的這個全院的委員會以及這個投票特別要強調"},{"start":17580.197,"end":17594.136,"text":"這個剛剛我們既然是立法院我們一定要按照我們的職權刑事法職權刑事法33條寫得非常非常清楚當復議案發生的時候我們這個行政院的院長若提出復議案西字頭的復議案的話"},{"start":17596.926,"end":17603.933,"text":"這個我們得邀請行政院院長到立法院你不要插嘴嘛到底在講話閉嘴"},{"start":17615.706,"end":17626.842,"text":"所以我們得邀請行政院長來做這樣的一個報告但是現在我們第一個看到總預算的時間這麼壓迫"},{"start":17629.387,"end":17646.672,"text":"第二個依照我們的職權行事法本來依照過去會計法的時候當然柯總統講了很多理由啦但是當時就到大法師魔法章一筆說不需要請行政院長來所以當時會計法就沒有請行政院長到院來報告"},{"start":17648.055,"end":17673.228,"text":"那除了會計法的事實以外現在比較嚴重的事情就是第一個總預算的問題第二個會期即將要結束還有第三個我們的職權刑事法就是這樣規定的當然柯總召不斷地提憲法徵修條文憲法徵修條文我就唸一次啊因為他每次講的都是語言不詳然後大家也聽不懂他講的內容到底是什麼"},{"start":17674.463,"end":17703.262,"text":"所以呢我們在這裡啊重新附送一下什麼叫憲法徵修條文這個第三條行政院對立法院決議之法律案預算案條約案認為有自然來行時得經總統之核可以該決議案送達行政院時日內以請行政院復議這個條文寫得很清楚"},{"start":17704.591,"end":17730.077,"text":"今天就是得到總統府的核可所以呢他送到立法院來提起復議案那之後全部條文就是這樣那送到立法院之後就要按照我們的職權刑事法來辦理還有一個很重要的一個重點我要再三強調現在我們的刑處法修正以後啊"},{"start":17731.702,"end":17751.684,"text":"這個院長 未來如果再有人跟你提起這樣的事情的話我們可以很清楚的說清楚憲法法庭並沒有停擺我們按照捷克制的修法要十位大法官出席 九位一致同意才能做"},{"start":17753.565,"end":17776.618,"text":"四種 四種重大的判決重大的判決第一個 違憲的判決第二個 解散政黨的判決第三個 彈劾的判決第四個 暫時處分的判決除了四大重點重大的案例判決以外其他的完全 完全"},{"start":17778.881,"end":17795.195,"text":"完全都可以來進行來受理而且幾乎絕大部分都是直接駁回現在憲法庭幾乎都直接駁回申請這個事件幾乎大部分都是直接駁回"},{"start":17796.736,"end":17825.063,"text":"所以真正現在一年違憲的判決根本沒有幾件所以真正說影響到百分之九十幾的人這是一個笑話幾乎大部分的人民澄清案都是直接駁回的所以憲法法庭並沒有停擺它還是在進行但是我們現在耐人尋味一個最重要的重點最重要的重點是什麼既然我們的職權刑事法"},{"start":17826.263,"end":17846.796,"text":"是得邀請行政院長而比較我們大家很好奇的為什麼行政院可以越主帶袍幫司法院來解釋司法院的職權難道行政院已經把立法院跟司法院都納入他的麾下"},{"start":17848.027,"end":17870.514,"text":"難道現在我們的司法院已經是立法院的司法局 司法科吧行政院的現在是不是我們總統他院長已經把司法院當作他的司法科還是司法局所以他這個常備管轄全部立法院歸他管司法院歸他管我們讓這個惡例絕對不能開"},{"start":17874.634,"end":17900.843,"text":"行政院長怎麼可以越組代表幫司法院來做解釋他的自然難行所以我覺得這個我們要堅持啦那現在主要還是要回到現在總預算的問題要不要趕快解決會期要不要提前結束還有我們第二輪的協商都還沒有開始總預算所以真的是壓迫在這個而且依照立法院職權行事法可能我們要趕快訂好時間好 謝謝"},{"start":17903.984,"end":17924.659,"text":"柯总统,容许我处理好吗,发言已经非常大,我们先把壮世代刚才党和协商沟通完毕了,现在正在整理复建,那有一个协商草稿,我先念一下,我们一步一步来,可以的话就拜托各位党和干部签字。"},{"start":17926.485,"end":17935.451,"text":"那協商主題是福利及吳春成等42位委員凝聚壯士在政策與產業發展促進法草案"},{"start":17937.373,"end":17964.643,"text":"協商結論一 法案名稱第一條至第十一條 第十五條至第二十一條 照協商結果通過 如附件二 調次 援引調次 我們授權議事人員調整三 其餘均照審查會審查結果通過四 本案願會進行處理時 依照一月三號黨團共事進行處理請問各位黨團幹部有沒有意見"},{"start":17967.011,"end":17996.194,"text":"沒有意見,我們就請簽字,好嗎?好建議那個附件,因為剛剛條文蠻多,發給大家看一下,好不好?附件印完以後就發給各位黨團看不看,我們一個一個來,好我是要看過都絕對沒問題啦然後我們也協商,那個孟愷也看過嘛,孫長遠你們三個看過"},{"start":17997.87,"end":18013.439,"text":"有,所以院長剛剛都已經有協商,而且國發會副主委也都同意請大家簽名可以給國發會看一下喔"},{"start":18122.338,"end":18148.948,"text":"那個院長,有關最後一案行政組織那個運動部,那都講好了,因為處委員會不去協商嘛那現在只剩下拿來簽一簽就好了不照程序啊你用保證的我就是不知道,我是不肯出錯,這個案子就要擺在第一竿等一下我跟你講,沒有關係大家考,你不要用我考來考去"},{"start":18153.707,"end":18162.096,"text":"吳春哲委員已經等得眉毛都變白了這個案子"},{"start":18174.568,"end":18181.971,"text":"腳趙一個一個來,那我們第五案怎麼可能簽走呢?運動部大家都講好了,你要抵制的話沒有關係我們看你怎麼來"},{"start":18188.212,"end":18210.178,"text":"這事先拿來簽一簽就好,我們專心來討論嘛,討論先好訴訟那院長你聽我講話,有關於錢三英的部分,就協商,叫總統趕快提案嘛提案怎麼談判,我們記錄協商審析,這很簡單嘛後面的案沒有了後面哪一個案?我們再整齊好了不是"},{"start":18211.755,"end":18237.88,"text":"好,那你明天再來談有關於這個,沒有,你這個,等一下等一下,選案場合要不要來練習,這個還沒談完啊,那明天再來談也沒有關係啊沒有共識啊什麼叫沒有共識,你聽我講完不要走蕙琦請坐好"},{"start":18239.295,"end":18253.528,"text":"我第一次看到你竟然有點認識能力,但我亂講一通你那個是你們孫永軍那一流的啊你們的憲法學者亂講,你也跟著韓財學部你還會講話,還會講憲法來請坐下來聽第一個"},{"start":18266.118,"end":18288.31,"text":"市縣本來就是從八八到正常結算四個但是人民可不可以來申請市縣 當然可以所以大法官以後就是把這個造法了人民就可以來申請市縣了只要這樣的話 趙副委員講話人民市縣市縣都請駁回 亂講一通人民市縣市縣太多"},{"start":18291.218,"end":18315.696,"text":"所以說了以後就都是程序要開會也要照憲判來處理的所以分析不要亂講話所以他還懂得到捷克模式我們要捷克模式我們要入法所以你們自己提的法是十個九個你要到捷克模式是八個八個捷克事件那也可以啊要敢嗎"},{"start":18318.577,"end":18346.89,"text":"那什麼叫結構模式?我們聽不懂,是不足的就可以失憲嗎?所以問題是公民齁,我目前是往今之流的人,才可以叫他亂講一通等一下,院長再讓我講一次等一下,我講很清楚,這很重要,人民失憲的時候,第一要走裁定裁定當然要走裁定,然後修憲,修憲以後要三個大法官"},{"start":18348.198,"end":18357.594,"text":"來看,一字結的話當然就要實現,沒有一字結的話當然要有理由書要寫很清楚,為什麼你這個實現,來生理實現我不給你手要不然退回"},{"start":18362.392,"end":18387.331,"text":"先說是我修的,108年我曾參與審議以前不必理由書,現在我幫大家同意要背理由書,而且沒有用自私的我要形成事先很重要的事情,人民權益為什麼可以民法退回所以要講很清楚,一定要寫很清楚第二個,至於有關於總預算現在怎麼排?二輪總預算被國民黨卡到現在...現在...現在..."},{"start":18392.915,"end":18400.4,"text":"你跟我們離開好不好你不要這樣就出去了我們也不同意我要表達說我們也不同意我們的行政院院長來報告因為我覺得也不必要"},{"start":18422.774,"end":18444.647,"text":"你們連自己的教室都不要通過了嗎?就是說我們現在學生就要講學生的嘛不要再講說你過去怎麼樣怎麼樣我們知道你要教訓你的子孫就回家教訓我們民進黨的子孫教訓不要在這邊一直教訓大家出去不出去不是你決定"},{"start":18446.488,"end":18450.91,"text":"我插嘴就是...怪小姐啦好...好...好...好...好...好...好...好...好..."},{"start":18463.477,"end":18470.023,"text":"現在我們不要再講 插話是應該的啊我們現在主席做裁決我們院長就太好了 一直在奢侈一個改島不要亂了啦 你們才是亂啦你講了一大堆說什麼呢等一下院長你唸了什麼 我沒有聽到耶"},{"start":18489.313,"end":18501.039,"text":"現在是怎樣?蔓越正在掩護你,你剛剛唸了什麼?沒人聽到?院長?院長不要管啦就這樣?就這樣?憲法中心你也想要表決,你弄看看我保證你這事現在完全破功"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2025010385","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"}},{"id":"16449","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16449","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ed57c7c755d2781a452326ede8e90b48b529fa0cca45d5627de87041a85e7940d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-01-06T09:40:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分，關於財政部主管臺灣土地銀行股份有限公司、財政部印刷廠、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司。（處理））","type":"Full","date":"2025-01-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-01-06T09:22:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-01-06T10:55:00+08:00","duration":5550,"影片長度":"01:32:30","委員發言時間":"09:22:30 - 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轉投資計畫無列數五"},{"start":1293.584,"end":1313.811,"text":"重大制建設事業11158000元6.資金運用1.如有修正除住民修正意見外另加序並依據營業收支生產成本盈虧撥補轉投資及重大制建設事業等向之審查結果隨同調整2.如有修正因序名依依據營業收支生產成本盈虧撥補轉投資及重大制建設事業等向之審查結果隨同調整"},{"start":1315.458,"end":1336.018,"text":"有關台灣菸酒股份有限公司依業務計畫依如有修正除住民修正意見外因應加序並依據營業收支生產成本轉投資壯大至建設事業及資金運用等向之審查結果隨同調整二 如無修正依序明依依據營業收支生產成本轉投資壯大至建設事業及資金運用等向之審查結果隨同調整二 營業收支依營業總收入"},{"start":1337.159,"end":1352.945,"text":"六百零三億一千六百二十四萬四千元二營業總支出不含所得稅費用五百四十五億兩千三百零八萬六千元三稅前經濟五十七億九千三百一十五萬八千元三生產成本一如各項目有修正除住民修正意見外另加續營業總支出應隨同調整"},{"start":1354.606,"end":1383.57,"text":"2如無個別項目修正及續名隨同營業總支出審查結果調整4轉投資計畫無劣數5重大制建設事業14億1349萬2000元6資金運用1如有修正除住民修正意見外另加續並依據營業收支生產成本營規撥補轉投資及重大制建設事業等項之審查結果隨同調整2如無修正因續名因依據營業收支生產成本營規撥補轉投資及重大制建設事業等項之審查結果隨同調整文體案部分"},{"start":1384.912,"end":1408.205,"text":"同案共五案第一案建議國營金融事業機構比照同業採外加發放方式並提高員工伙食費至每月三千元委員郭國文等三人提案第二案國營金融事業有關員工生意補助事宜建議每胎補助新台幣十萬元委員郭國文等三人提案第三案"},{"start":1409.145,"end":1417.709,"text":"建議財政部所屬國營金融事業機構經營績效獎金提撥總額4.4個月上限因與時俱進比照飯宮股銀行調高至4.6個月並比照飯宮股銀行以獲利狀況提撥1%到8%之員工酬勞為"},{"start":1425.473,"end":1440.661,"text":"委員郭國文等三項提案第四案建議國營金融事業機構比照飯宮股銀行辦理員工福利信託辦理方式為員工薪資提存金每月一千元以上含公司獎勵金每月一千元以上含委員郭國文等三項提案第五案"},{"start":1443.107,"end":1465.395,"text":"國營事業卻未應UOCR必須於當年度增列構建固定資產預算 建議修正相關法規為構建固定資產預算至一般建築及設備計劃部分除房屋及建築中資新建或構置新各項辦公房屋 宿舍與交通及運輸設備中資構置管理用車輛及增加國庫負擔經費者外 區域項目依UOCR自行辦理並補辦預算"},{"start":1467.236,"end":1495.294,"text":"委員郭國麟等三人提案談土地銀行部分共31案第一案淨利增略五億元委員郭國麟等三人提案第二案本期淨利增略四億元委員賴世保等三人提案第三案稅前淨利增略一億元委員李坤城等三人提案第四案優惠費用向下服務費用凍結兩千萬元委員賴慧園等三人提案第五案優惠費用向下服務費用凍結兩千萬元委員賴慧園等三人提案第六案服務費用凍結兩千萬元委員賴慧園等三人提案第七案"},{"start":1496.792,"end":1511.065,"text":"服務費向下郵電費減列200萬元為賴士寶等三人提案 第八案服務費向下旅運費減列900萬元為王思堅等三人提案 第九案旅運費減列50萬元為李坤城等三人提案 第十案"},{"start":1512.304,"end":1530.376,"text":"服務方向下 修理保養與保固費 減列250萬元 委員代事保等三項提案 第十一案服務方向下 暫儲包裝代理局加工費 減列50萬元 委員李坤城等三項提案 第十二案服務方向下 專業服務費 減列6000萬元 委員王世堅等三項提案 第十三案"},{"start":1533.035,"end":1547.245,"text":"服務業務費用向下 拖長費減列350萬元 委員代事保等三人提案 第十四案管理費用減列2500萬元 委員代事保等三人提案 第十五案其他營業費用向下 研究發展費用減列500萬元 委員王宏威等三人提案 第十六案"},{"start":1548.166,"end":1573.056,"text":"研究發展分項 凍結20% 委員王世堅等三案提案第十七案 研究發展分項 凍結50萬元 委員吳立華等三案提案第十八案 營業外收入增列1000萬元 委員郭國恩等三案提案第十九案 固定資產改欄擴充減列5000萬元 委員郭國恩等三案提案第十八案 固定資產建設改欄擴充 凍結1% 委員陳一貞等三案提案第十一案 一般建築及設備計畫 凍結200萬元 委員吳立華等三案提案"},{"start":1577.077,"end":1603.005,"text":"主決於第二十二案請台灣土地銀行針對未來業務多元性計畫為題提出專案報告委員嚴寬衡等三項提案第二十三案台灣土地銀行於一百一三年度截至八月底止之歷時收入為五百三十四點四二億元其佔該行總收入之比例為八十一點一百元比顯示台灣土地銀行收入高度仰賴放款業務原要求台灣土地銀行提出書面檢討報告委員李坤成等三項提案第二十四案"},{"start":1604.145,"end":1627.992,"text":"土地銀行收入來源過度集中利息收入,顯示其收入高度仰賴放款業務,應持續積極擴展息息業務,增加多元收益,委員郭國文等三人提案,第25案台灣土地銀行財務管理收入手續費收入今年度截至7月底指目標達成率僅49.92%,要求台灣土地銀行提出檢討改善報告"},{"start":1630.387,"end":1656.702,"text":"委員 委員民財等三項提案 第二十六案要求臺灣土地銀行比照薪資勞退雇主每個月必須為勞工至少提繳一千五百元員工也對等提繳存入員工 退休經理 財專戶 投資上市櫃公股銀行並提出書面報告 委員代事保等三項提案第二十七案要求臺灣土地銀行對當年度盈餘超過法定數時應針對超額盈餘部分再提列百分之十至百分之二十發給員工分紅並提出書面報告委員代事保等三項提案第二十八案 土地銀行"},{"start":1657.242,"end":1674.83,"text":"因同步增加對員工發放技巧獎金、超營與獎金、縮小公股銀行與民營銀行的薪資與福利差距、文化方位等三項提案第二九案要求台灣土地銀行應提高所屬員工生意津貼至少12萬元並提出書面報告為賴氏寶等三項提案第三十案離開土地銀行"},{"start":1676.411,"end":1699.64,"text":"土地銀行球隊之籲球員事後得到特殊評估表現可否保留其回任擔當行員之資格儀式委員請台灣土地銀行研議並提出書面報告委員李坤誠等三人提案第31案請財政部與土地銀行與商局院內完成相關組隊性組隊性評言者落實與運動員團體參與之整體性規劃並提出書面報告委員賴慧妍陳佩儀等四人提案"},{"start":1700.86,"end":1725.92,"text":"財政部運銷所提案共事案 第一案本期經濟增業200萬元 委員賴思寶等三案提案 第二案銷貨收入增業2000萬元 委員賴思寶等三案提案 第三案管理費用減業100萬元 委員陳玉珍等三案提案 第四案固定資產建設改良擴充經費 凍結50萬元 委員吳立華等三案提案台湾營業股份委訓公司提案共33案 第一案稅前經濟增業1000萬元 委員李坤城等三案提案 第二案"},{"start":1727.822,"end":1743.841,"text":"營業總收入增列兩千萬元為原款等三項提案 第三案銷貨成本減列五億元為耐事保等三項提案 第四案製造費用向下服務費用支付修理保養與保固費減列兩百萬元為米坤城等三項提案 第五案行銷費用減列三億元為"},{"start":1746.42,"end":1769.42,"text":"陳玉珍等三人提案 第六案行銷費用減略兩億五千萬元為納釋寶等三人提案 第七案行銷費用之服務費用減略一億元為郭國文等三人提案 第八案行銷費用向下服務費用之印刷裝訂集公告費減略一百萬元為李坤城等三人提案 第九案行銷費用向下推轉費用减凍結一千萬元為明德福等三人提案 第十案"},{"start":1771.055,"end":1792.374,"text":"推展費凍結300萬元為人民財等三人提案第十一案管理費用減虐2000萬元為賴世保等三人提案第十二案管理費用減虐500萬元為陳玉珍等三人提案第十三案營業費用向下管理費用凍結2000萬元為賴慧芸等三人提案第十四案管理費用向下服務費用減虐2000萬元為郭國倫等三人提案第十五案營業"},{"start":1794.256,"end":1814.065,"text":"管理費用向下電腦軟體服務費凍結兩百萬元為聯名財等三營題案第十六案管理費用向下拖展費凍結百分之十為聯名財等三營題案第十七案拖展費凍結百分之五為林德湖等三營題案第十八案研究發展費用減六兩百萬元為陳玉珍等三營題案第十九案研究發展費用"},{"start":1815.867,"end":1827.34,"text":"動決兩千萬元委員代會員等三人提案第二十二案研究發展費用動決兩千萬元委員代會員等三人提案第三十一案研究發展費用向下服務費用動決一百萬元委員郭國文等三人提案第二十二案"},{"start":1829.062,"end":1855.314,"text":"員工性命費用凍結20%委員王宏輝等三人提案 第二三案營業外費用資向下補助及捐助凍結100萬元委員賴慧玲陳佩玉等三人提案 第二四案固定資產建設改善擴充凍結100萬元委員吳立華等三人提案 第二七案一般建築及設備計畫減劣4000萬元委員林德虎等三人提案 第二十六案"},{"start":1857.284,"end":1879.035,"text":"一般建築及設備向下 機械及設備之 高雄營業處 物慮啤酒廠 內附菸廠等太陽光電建置凍結500萬元為煙快營等三項提案 第二七案主決議 請臺灣菸酒公司針對菸品及酒類產品轉型計畫為題 提出專案報告為煙快營等三項提案 第二十八案 請臺灣菸酒公司提出SBR 臺灣啤酒"},{"start":1879.975,"end":1905.668,"text":"燃酒隊及TPP 台啤雲報基層推廣燃酒活動之計畫報告委員李坤城等三案提案第二九案台燃酒公司與六十辦理職業安全衛生管理計畫強化職業安全衛生委員會之功能並確實檢討各公安事故發生原因引要求台燃酒公司提出書面檢討報告委員李坤城等三案提案第三十案台燃酒公司針對泰王光電建置計畫經費"},{"start":1906.889,"end":1927.985,"text":"提出計畫報告 委員李坤城等三案提案第31案 要求台英煙土公司應就如何提升主力產品銷售市佔率及營運績效提出書面報告 委員郭國文等三案提案第32案 台英煙土公司之啤酒廠共13個包裝線112年度僅台北啤酒工廠坪二線使用效率93.39% 超過9成人教111年度95.96%減少"},{"start":1934.57,"end":1950.843,"text":"與研磨提升並提出順利報告 王世堅等三人提案第三三案 臺灣菸酒公司部分酒廠虧損擴大與研磨有效改善措施並強化設備維護作業以減少虧損或提高精力並提出順利報告 王世堅等三人提案 宣讀完畢我們開始協商"},{"start":1960.154,"end":1988.925,"text":"全部七十幾個案子但是因為有協調所以事實上案子很少那我們有一些通案我們趕快跟他討論一下通案預算提案有五案來第一案文字修正這郭委員的我們沒有意見我有一件大家請舉手我們就發言那沒意見我們就這樣照這個尊重提案委員的意見好文字修正第一案沒意見通過第二案也是通案文字修正第三案通案文字修正"},{"start":1991.394,"end":2017.006,"text":"第四案也是通案文字修正以上都是我現在這次很多委員都有第五案也是通案文字修正這次很多提案都是希望這個財政部可以照顧國營事業的員工不管從伙食費到各個費用要回去真正通盤的檢討財政部可以這個提案人是那個郭國文吳秉瑞是第五案還有意見嗎"},{"start":2020.447,"end":2032.622,"text":"吳委員是第一 都有連署第一地方吳本業委員都有提案跟連署有郭國文是第一案跟第二案"},{"start":2034.93,"end":2062.864,"text":"是嗎 他把他寫在上面 他把郭國文畫一個箭號在上面好像他是提案人 好吧那是吳秉銳委員跟郭國文共同提案那你跟我們道歉那是吳秉銳委員 共同提案你們兩個 應該是三個共同提案 好不好好 都OK 我都沒有關係這些都是有關這個國營事業的一些伙食費一些員工的一些績效獎金希望財政部回去以後針對可以自行不用再經過什麼人種的部分趕快先行處理部長有沒有問題"},{"start":2065.13,"end":2088.968,"text":"我能不能稍微說明一下這個案子其實知識體大我覺得這個福利其實不是靠個人的權益的問題而影響到人才的招募現在人數相對於十年前大概已經少了七成以台銀來說甚至比核擴還少然後我大概抓了一下以台銀為例的話平均年齡大概45到46歲這是偏中高齡"},{"start":2090.149,"end":2110.581,"text":"所以這樣的人才庫以後會斷層這對國家公股銀行其實是很不利的我相信大家都知道我說這個真的是要解決一個好的方法而部長真的是責無旁貸要去面臨這個問題我要提一下莊部長你一定要好好做這件事情"},{"start":2112.301,"end":2139.016,"text":"你們的人事處長啊就拿一百零四年的公文立黨這個案子所以我們朝野立委都一致都認為應該為了公營事業國營事業的人才著想這個福利啊應該這個從有比照翻棍鼓結果現在黨的原來公會給我翻令了我以為是假的原來是要翻針的財政部在黨"},{"start":2140.883,"end":2160.375,"text":"財政部在擋 財政部論事處就拿著一百零四年的公文擋 說不可以 沒辦法這個公就是專務部長你才背所以現在公會都跟我抱怨說專務部長啊 表面說好啊事實上左手說可以 右手就叫論事處去殺"},{"start":2161.983,"end":2179.458,"text":"所以這等於沒用了 各位委員 五大的委員我們朝野都有共識結果就是你們就是一個律師處長就擋在那裡然後就是推給人事總署我覺得莊部長你要出面親自來搞定這個事情你要去找人事長"},{"start":2181.32,"end":2197.914,"text":"人事處長有來啦我們還是讓等一下羅明財委員講完人事處長你要回應一下為什麼部長在這裡都跟委員說可以你都說不可以啊 你在背後都說不可以啊你請羅明財委員先講給人事處長回應一下謝謝主席"},{"start":2198.891,"end":2226.151,"text":"我想國營事業機構特別是金融的部分土營跟台營加起來全部人數包括印刷等等大概超過一萬五千人以上長期以來這個圈圈裡面大家都越來越沒有耐心因為看到今年的所有金融事業機構"},{"start":2227.882,"end":2249.264,"text":"獲利大概接近快一兆結果國營事業這些人員長期以來都沒有得到一個好的人生志向的發展你比如說富邦他一年證券部分可能一個人可以領大概十幾個月以上的紅利"},{"start":2250.523,"end":2271.897,"text":"還有很多的獎金所以民間的這個機構啊對於大概30年以來本來是應該由公營事業機構的經營的這個市占率節節敗退所以這有兩個影響一個是好的人才留不住"},{"start":2273.004,"end":2288.055,"text":"再多的榮譽抵不過肚子餓的情況還是要跟現實來低頭第二個就是這些人才變成沒有一個方向"},{"start":2289.099,"end":2308.873,"text":"所以訓練完了以後民間機構可能他就是訓練完他們就拿走了這殊為可惜所以我要拜託莊部長我們討論好幾年的這個不公平的形象怪異的形象你應該以四個字來看看怎麼樣來推動"},{"start":2310.174,"end":2334.03,"text":"以奉養廉比較合理正常的薪資讓所有的國營事業機構的員工可以願意待待得住認真做努力做這個才是一個最大的公約數我請部長在任內是不是可以想出一個好的方式謝謝好 吳秉瑞委員 謝謝劉慧玲"},{"start":2337.47,"end":2365.376,"text":"這個是我的提案啦我們共同提案前提就是原則上我們支持但事實上這裡面牽涉的東西很多啦還包括法令還包括整體制度當然剛剛各個委員的高見我就舉一個例子嘛你公股銀行現在泛公股有八間嘛其他的已經股票上市了跟這個完全百分之百公股是不一樣"},{"start":2367.874,"end":2388.124,"text":"制度也不一樣福利待遇也不一樣但是有一些比如說伙食費啊有一些生育補助啊這個我覺得盡量年長獎金適度提高因為有時候涉及到全部的公股事業不過也不要光想說對員工不好因為我對員工比較好"},{"start":2388.973,"end":2418.619,"text":"因為在這樣的銀行現在是大家獲利高嘛大家就想要爭取高額的獎金嘛但是當如果狀況不好的時候民營的企業或是這些股票上市的企業他們的在員工的淘汰上面的靈活度是比原比這個公股的這個保障要小多了公股的坦白講我們都了解要淘汰也比較不是那麼容易所以我是覺得我們提這個案是你當讓你當一個背景"},{"start":2420.758,"end":2424.849,"text":"讓這個大家讓你要去爭取的時候讓他知道說各黨派"},{"start":2426.121,"end":2450.087,"text":"民意代表都支持 那你就盡量去爭取這也不是你個人可以決定的 我深深知道啦因為我父親以前是 等於是現在富人是總長嘛所以我很了解這些制度 就是讓你盡量去爭取裡面有很多項 不是只有一項 不是光只有談薪水就譬如說生育補助 我覺得這個就很好啊那大家也在鼓勵生育啊 對不對 然後"},{"start":2451.067,"end":2476.745,"text":"譬如說有一些吃飯你要吃飯750塊這個不太像話嘛等等這一類的這些東西所以是我們做了你的靠山讓你盡量去去爭取啦那大家的意見其實都是一致的加油啦謝謝先請問一下剛剛在委員所說人事處長說的這個有意見嗎就是像比如說我們先針對委員所提的伙食費跟生育補助這兩個這兩個還有經過人總嗎"},{"start":2480.115,"end":2482.849,"text":"這個部分也要經過人種嗎你拿麥克風說一下"},{"start":2486.147,"end":2509.918,"text":"現在委員很關心我們國營事業的福利其實按照國營事業管理法就是說各種的待遇跟福利都是要由行政院來定標準剛剛委員提到104年的解釋提的就是說銀行的那個伙食費其實在82年的時候已經冰到待遇裡面去現在是沒有伙食費這樣子的一個"},{"start":2510.618,"end":2517.906,"text":"一個項目所以他一百零四年就有解釋下來所以我們才會回應說這個伙食費我們可能要再繼續爭取啦這樣你說我這樣聽不懂啦你說伙食費跟生意的意思嗎他的意思是拼到那個巴黎西貢了啦"},{"start":2528.321,"end":2553.935,"text":"來 部長 大家答應的算什麼答應面比較高啊我想這樣 謝謝我們委員對於國營事業 尤其是金融事業對於攬財跟流財當然也要育財這個議題的一個重視尤其是金融事業目前來說是一個完全競爭的一個市場有我們的完全國營 還有泛工股"},{"start":2554.575,"end":2572.866,"text":"還有存民營的那待遇上確實有一些有差距那委員所提出的幾個提案我們其實都已經彙整了大概不外乎就是生育補助費還有績效獎金還有伙食費另外還有就是供股信託另外還有一個就是"},{"start":2573.406,"end":2588.643,"text":"預算上就是說如果當年度的預算沒編的話是不是就是可以把流程上節省一下讓他們在運作上更具有彈性這幾個主題我們都把它彙整起來然後要有一個更好的一個說辭因為也涉及到主種人種"},{"start":2589.244,"end":2606.407,"text":"那我們會去說服然後去盡力來做我謝謝委員這個部分的支持我們的國營事業的金融事業那這個部分我們是不是一起來做那這個部分如同剛剛吳委員所說委員的提案等於是我們最好的一個後盾跟背後我們一起去說服然後也許"},{"start":2607.228,"end":2626.579,"text":"沒有辦法一次就達成但是我們要逐步往這個方向去推好不好這個部分我們一定會做已經上個禮拜已經我已經請人事處長跟我們的會計處長來談那這個部分我們會用更多的一個說詞來去來去跟主總跟人總來做說明跟爭取"},{"start":2627.139,"end":2630.022,"text":"部長這樣講是一個輸入法啦我覺得不夠積極啦我覺得剛才人事處長有講而且包括人總的長官也在後面盯著主計總署主計總署也在後面盯著這個其實你們都是收心力國民事業管理辦法嘛"},{"start":2649.078,"end":2652.041,"text":"法嘛 我們來修啊我們來修法我們來修法"},{"start":2665.253,"end":2692.587,"text":"你們也提出來 郭國文委員好我們有接請部長積極處理啦那先生已經都聽到了啦這邊討論也沒有辦法因為後面還有案子很多嘛 好不好我們現在不然我們也來提修法嘛你財政部你也可以提出來喔 朝野都支持吧好 現在已經到通案的第五案了齁都沒意見齁 文資修正齁這吳品慧委員的提案齁通案第五案好 接著我們進入台灣土地銀行的預算提案齁來 土地銀行第一案齁第一案 第二案 第三案 併案"},{"start":2694.352,"end":2708.424,"text":"增略稅前盡力1.8億元請土銀將相關收入與成本調整項目給議事人員這個沒問題吧沒有問題那個第一案嘛我的第一案嘛是這樣子基本上我跟土銀這邊已經有一點協調了"},{"start":2716.65,"end":2734.461,"text":"但是我還是說一下那個何董基本上是土銀人嘛40年了那土銀的這個部分的業務都過渡其中一個販款的業務高達七八成獲利也是來自於這邊那既然已經這個經常性的業務對你來說其實是非常顯熟這個毫無挑戰性可言"},{"start":2734.921,"end":2758,"text":"我說你如果接掌或是董事長之後有一些結構性的啦多元化的啦或者是中長期的你要納入思考包括後面的部分的前置資產實在太多過於老舊的問題那個都應該去面對啦好不好好好的一展身手啦不然的話老是靠這種方式其實沒差你土銀40年好不好OK 好啊 羅民財委員請發言好 謝謝"},{"start":2761.725,"end":2782.082,"text":"從央行一連串的打房措施了以後的確國內的房地產成交的情況大概急劇的萎縮我想要請教一下這個土銀算是土地土龍建龍的國內的龍頭我想請教一下董事長的看法"},{"start":2782.702,"end":2795.862,"text":"就是新的這一年你對台灣整個房地產的發展大概是趨於保守還是覺得會嚴重的下滑"},{"start":2800.287,"end":2820.752,"text":"其實以目前的狀況來看整個房地產的市場的價格應該是價穩量縮那因為營建成本的造價還是節節高升但是目前很難在這個氛圍下很難把它轉化成銷售價格消費者也不容易接受所以量會縮"},{"start":2821.992,"end":2841.679,"text":"但是價格呢 建商也很難有機會說把這個價格再往下當下來所以這個可能要堅持大概將近快一年的時間讓大家建商跟消費者能夠互相接受這樣最後再問一下 請問一下你預放的情況怎麼樣有沒有受到環境景氣的影響擴大"},{"start":2843.78,"end":2871.463,"text":"其實土地銀行目前的預期放款是八價公股行戶最低的只有0.08%也就是說整個預期放款跟整個來看整個土地銀行目前沒有但是我們很怕的也是跟大概很多委員或者是媒體所講的是怕說未來的五年以後的清安的預期放款會不會增加這個目前是還要再觀察但是就過去"},{"start":2871.983,"end":2873.704,"text":"水線的情況土銀會不會縮銀更"},{"start":2895.831,"end":2923.045,"text":"土地銀行目前的所有的貸款只要是政策性的都不會所以我現在的那個新清安還有首購我都繼續做至於央行所有的有關管制的部分呢我都會配合管制而且會成數跟利率都會比較高那個放款的成數會下降 利率會上升這個是一個趨勢是希望說穩定國內的真正需求的人能夠有購屋的機會這樣"},{"start":2924.229,"end":2942.94,"text":"就是普遍的趨勢都是這樣好 接著那第二案是Lancelot委員提的我們就併第一案了 也是就是1.8億嘛稅前盡力增加1.8億那第二案是李昆城委員的也是併到第一案了也是 你看原來提1億嘛那我們到1.8億啦好 第四案 那委員提的主決議改組決議有關這個詐騙的部分 這個"},{"start":2947.222,"end":2976.368,"text":"第五案也是賴委員提的改組決議的部分一個月提書面報告然後第六案賴委員提的改組決議這個服務費用的部分要做不要要做這個人頭帳戶的這個控管第七案是賴委員所提的來 刪減預算 減略兩百萬好 順道辦理的減費兩百萬順道辦理好 第八案是王世堅委員提的"},{"start":2977.478,"end":3004.566,"text":"是王先生的這個案子領運費8跟9都是領運費 李坤城委員第9案也是領運費主席是這樣 王委員這兩個案子剛好提兩個不同的事情第一個事情就是圖銀我認為要至少要三個五百萬以上那原因是什麼 就是針對"},{"start":3007.036,"end":3020.343,"text":"土地銀行他們對於空地貸款那中央銀行早就有頒一條就是說空地18個月未動工的空地貸款結果現在統計下來九大公營行庫那空地貸款超過18個月總共2115億這當中土地銀行就佔了1150億之多那"},{"start":3035.629,"end":3061.528,"text":"他們的董事長在後來答詢的時候我問他的時候他跟我說有馬上他們第一個月就減了他說減了減到剩200億他說奇怪那這是很好這很好成績結果回去一查不是這個樣子啦他們是把定義更改他們把起核的日子調整之後"},{"start":3062.503,"end":3088.578,"text":"那之後他又更改他說他一個月減200億那事實上也沒有就對反正每次他講的這個數字他是把定義調整之後調的但是我們要的是你貸款給這些空地他空地他沒有申請建造他一直擺爛他就一直擺著這樣拖著的你要去跟他收回這才是實際的"},{"start":3090.461,"end":3097.21,"text":"所以我認為在這個部分至少跟他三個五百萬他才會有一些警示的作用"},{"start":3097.816,"end":3123.728,"text":"因為在這個部分 土銀不能一直說我是土地融資 不動產融資的專業銀行所以我有權利去做更大的授信是 他們做這些部分的授信金額做得夠多也夠大但是他如果冷靜想他一千一百五十億借給建商去做空地貸款而不去催收的話"},{"start":3124.997,"end":3130.056,"text":"等於一坪土地我們以一百萬來算等於讓建商"},{"start":3131.926,"end":3154.831,"text":"空有11萬坪的土地隨時買著11萬坪的土地在那邊買地養地圈地難怪我們生斗小民要買房子的時候房價節節高漲所以他們等於變相在助長了這些不孝建商買地養地圈地所以我認為這個事情嚴重何董事長說明嗎"},{"start":3158.272,"end":3178.436,"text":"土地銀行您提的1173億是在112年的12月到10月的時候土地銀行已經收回了260億至於上次給你的新的定義是根據主管機關的就是說央行管制之前的"},{"start":3179.236,"end":3197.68,"text":"還有都更為老的因為都更為老沒有辦法在18個月完工嘛 動工那些如果扣完了以後才是後來的266億所以我跟委員講真正的已經如果這些都不扣那現在也是少掉了從1173億減成為900幾億就是已經也收回了260億"},{"start":3204.662,"end":3232.118,"text":"那我為了配合政府的政策我減少建商囤地養地其實我的土建農的放款在今年一年內也少做了將近三百億因為我把這個錢移到做清安跟首購來所以對我想我應該是很配合政策在進行土地銀行的整個放款請委員能夠相信土地銀行一定會去盡量去做好不然你就回憶一下嘛可以刪一點嘛可以刪多少是"},{"start":3233.058,"end":3259.055,"text":"跟委員同時報告一下說今年多出了900多萬是因為一月份我們布里斯本分行已經開業了所以還要增加出差而且今年又申請了東京分行所以差旅會一定會增加至於布里斯本跟日本的東京分行的要申請布里斯本的開業我是不是能夠請委員300萬就好可不可以"},{"start":3261.035,"end":3288.346,"text":"好 三百萬一筆 李坤城的五十萬多啦 併入啦好啦 三百萬啦 比較快的啦 給他刪一下就好其實你可以刪別的地方 還有其他的分行啊三百啦 多刪一百啦 四百 四百啦 剪列四百萬齁 李英輝剪列四百萬齁坤城 那個你 他那個併入啦齁四百啦 併入嗎 四百萬 對 李委員你的要併入嗎"},{"start":3289.522,"end":3290.342,"text":"8跟9科目自行調整主席"},{"start":3319.005,"end":3326.65,"text":"好 11案11案50萬 簡略50萬 沒意見齁沒意見齁 尊重好 涉案簡略專業服務費6千萬 也是王世堅委員的這個是6千萬這個是這樣啦土地銀行"},{"start":3344.373,"end":3366.119,"text":"其實這10年來我們政府推動ESG那在銀行用ESG去評估壽信戶這個部分我們政府特別要求公營行戶一定要特別去注重ESG那也請了第一銀行做很多ESG相關的規範跟表格讓"},{"start":3367.848,"end":3380.926,"text":"各家銀行來遵守那既然土銀是不動產專業銀行那麼有ESG的這一些參考數字作為但是"},{"start":3382.247,"end":3403.98,"text":"土巨形式啦 比方說土銀放款的那幾家惡質的建商我上次舉例過啊 光那個新復發從北到南的工地 每個工地都有公安事故要不是摔死人 就是摔成重傷 每一件都有"},{"start":3405.834,"end":3418.224,"text":"即便連那個半年前整個工地塌掉那個叫什麼中泰那個大池那什麼也是土銀做的所以我不懂如果你"},{"start":3419.972,"end":3445.27,"text":"發生事情以後土銀用ESG的這個要求標準重新把它檢視的話是不是應該對這樣的貸款要不就收回要不就減少那個金額要不就是提高他的利息怎麼通通都沒有阻止他們欸 任他們自由來去我意思是指這樣你土地銀行既然是土地的專業銀行"},{"start":3446.86,"end":3457.298,"text":"那你特別在貸款給這些不孝見商的時候你要特別盯住他的ESGESG做最好的你說你們是土地專業不動產專業營啊人家"},{"start":3460.939,"end":3486.591,"text":"那個義營做最好啦義營是商業銀行他還不是土榮不動產的專業銀行人家他都可以做那麼好他一樣貸款給不動產的啊他為什麼就不會這樣他的數字就遠比你低很多所以在這一個部分我才會說用這個懲罰性的跟你們小扣一點那個主席這是我的看法"},{"start":3487.071,"end":3505.806,"text":"好 那個主委你有什麼看法跟委員講 我覺得那一天列的新霧花的那些案子其實只有台中那個案子是在我們那邊做並不是所有的案子都在我們那邊做只有台中在裡面做對 就是那個 不過已經和解只有台中台中傷亡最厲害"},{"start":3507.068,"end":3525.15,"text":"那個就是因為有扎到捷運的那個部分但是要跟我們講說這一個專業服務會這個部分這個部分真的沒有辦法刪除這麼大的金額是主要今年多增加了兩個比較重要的費用必須是因為土營的"},{"start":3525.911,"end":3551.501,"text":"警衛跟保警會全150家分行跟總行資訊處所有的保警會呢今年因為基本工資的調漲我們外包的保警會今年會增加3000多萬的費用那另外呢今年又要搭配了一個資安軟體的建立就是AI的那個自動化的情資連那個連黃碗跟其他的行戶大家連在一起的這個費用大概有3400萬"},{"start":3552.961,"end":3580.846,"text":"所以委員如果一次刪這麼大的金額真的今年真的不啦 你可以刪多少啦 趕快啦五百萬好不好 剪裂五百萬不然差太多了啦這樣子啦 來來來 四千那個科目來啦 王偉我們執行率都96%欸董事長 董事長 等一下他講了一個道理 因為你們增加了六千多萬這樣子呢 王委員啦少一個零啦 六百啦 這樣就好了啦六百 少一個零就六百萬"},{"start":3582.712,"end":3584.154,"text":"簡略土營業務費用的服務費用 專業服務費600萬元整 科目自行調整"},{"start":3604.421,"end":3630.214,"text":"第十三案推展費減略一百五十萬 科目自行調整好 第十四案減略管理費用兩百萬 科目自行調整第十五案 王委員的減略其他營業項目下的研究發展費用兩百五十萬元等一下 科目自行調整跟十六案是不是 王思英委員這跟你提的同一個項目是不是並進來你是十六 王委員是十五"},{"start":3631.161,"end":3650.175,"text":"你 他是簡列了 啊你凍結了 就把它簡列就好了 簡列最快但是可以請你 請他給你寫我建議啦 我簡列就不要凍結啦 好不好 就這樣子啦直接刪預算啦喔 刪250萬 那王世堅委員的那個 一樣請他在一個月內併入第10萬 那寫報告一樣照寫"},{"start":3651.33,"end":3652.891,"text":"是同樣的一個項目17案改組決議"},{"start":3665.359,"end":3672.98,"text":"這個我一併講一講因為18跟19是有關的東西18跟19都是郭委員的18的部分還是閒置資產的部分閒置面積高達5000多坪大概佔15%所以我是給土銀一點壓力就是針對那個收入大概300這個不難來要加油不要給董事長壓力那麼大 300"},{"start":3693.786,"end":3709.157,"text":"19的部分是整修費用因為你其實閒置越多整修費用就會越多那相對所以也是另一方面的鼓勵我本來是減5000後來改成1000這樣我自己再降500好不好減略500萬要達成比較重要不是要刪多少"},{"start":3715.178,"end":3730.092,"text":"20案改組決議 主席 主席17案喔 17案有舉手我還是要提一下 雖然我已經改組決議可是我還是要提醒一下因為特別提到這個綠色的融資推展永續發展"},{"start":3730.652,"end":3748.99,"text":"那我是覺得說因為我們原鄉最近以來有很多人要做生殖能發電或者小型公民電廠或者是露營廠等等那其實呢他們都很缺少資金所以我覺得這個部分一定要納入原鄉要加強他們的這個綠色授信的方案"},{"start":3750.171,"end":3770.707,"text":"下次委員提到有關於那個我馬上請問我們的用麥克風講去聯絡那個原住民保證基金請他趕快下來然後我們趕快配合這樣來做這樣子一直催他也希望他說他早點來讓我們也早點說委員交代的事情我們再執行"},{"start":3771.127,"end":3787.12,"text":"好 謝謝董事長 謝謝主席 謝謝吳委員20案 陳怡貞提的 這個是金門分行 你們注意一下進度 該組決議18案 柯木自行調整18案好 300萬 甄烈營業外收入300萬甄烈還要柯木自行調整收入裡面大柯木"},{"start":3791.423,"end":3797.446,"text":"20案我們進門分堂的提一個進度21案也是改組決議22案專案報告改成書面報告這是顏寬仁委員提的23案李坤忠委員提的這個是組決議"},{"start":3815.683,"end":3818.268,"text":"有沒有問題啊用麥克風回應喔"},{"start":3823.597,"end":3836.226,"text":"24 案郭公文23 案遵照辦理就主決議啊本來就主決議啊24 案呢遵照辦理25 案遵照辦理26 案遵照辦理27 案哪一案請說拿麥克風說一下有什麼請說第幾案26 案26 案是不是好請說"},{"start":3847.144,"end":3875.444,"text":"其實跟主席報告就是因為這題一樣是涉及這個國營失業整體的員工待遇員工待遇 而勞保薪至勞退中停六趴是賴委員提的 你的案子是 那跟賴委員報告就是因為這題一樣是涉及我們國營失業整體的員工待遇第26案對 那這部分其實因為會涉及相關法令規定的修正哪一個部分涉及相關法令規定因為它要免受用人費用限額的限制哪一個地方"},{"start":3876.52,"end":3905.347,"text":"到戶主提列部分的費用向下 免受恐慌這位長官你也感性太多了吧這個就一個月提出書面報告那有啥就寫報告你有什麼心思可以寫就好啦你有什麼心思在裡面寫就好啦你怎麼會這樣子呢本來是建勤委員可不可以在圖明上面加演繹兩個字不可以我看一下 他已經有寫了他是要求比照對等提交"},{"start":3907.349,"end":3921.287,"text":"他是請你在一個月內提出書面報告啊就你寫書報告可行不可行你說這個可能涉及國民世界管理的辦法可能要涉及修法那你寫出來我們就知道我們要按照這個我們就去修法"},{"start":3922.428,"end":3949.181,"text":"我們到最後還是依法辦理嘛可以嗎 沒有問題的好 26號 遵照辦理我們會提書面報告好 會提出來 他們的意見提出來如果要修法 您提出來嘛好 27案 主決議遵照辦理好 28案的 王同學有提的一樣啦 就是員工的績效獎金啊什麼這些相關的縮小福利這個"},{"start":3951.389,"end":3976.176,"text":"尊照辦理 尊照辦理29案 一樣賴世保員提的生育補貼尊照辦理30案 一樣李坤成委員提的這個羽球隊這個要請你提出報告 是不是可以回認 得到特殊體育表現 可不可以回認單行員研議一下三個月的提報告 是 尊照辦理好 31案"},{"start":3978.868,"end":3990.381,"text":"文字修正有沒有問題有文字修正 文字修正後的決議遵照辦理 遵照辦理 好土銀結束了 剩16萬來那個凍結遼東剛已經檢列了你要凍結嗎"},{"start":3999.824,"end":4012.071,"text":"這看起來是小事其實是大事啦今年也只是處罰他們一下原因是什麼他這個是這樣啦土銀既然是土地融資不動產融資專業貸款但你們更應該知道"},{"start":4015.939,"end":4035.157,"text":"所有的銀行貸款給不動產那都必須各當下你整個行你總存款量多少不能超過百分之三十這是最基本的規定好了你知道這個我們政府是在管制這個但是你錢借給數條三兄弟"},{"start":4036.693,"end":4052.438,"text":"這些有一些比較沒辦法的建商找銀行借不到只好就找薯條三兄弟建商喔找薯條三兄弟結果你們變成一條食物鏈不效建商找"},{"start":4054.279,"end":4079.379,"text":"這個薯條三兄弟然後薯條三兄弟來跟你們借錢你們等於對這個地方形成了破口薯條三兄弟去把錢借給了建商不受這個總存款的百分之三十的限制那我一直問土雲說那你這個部分多少你有沒有查結果你們到現在也沒查也沒當一回事我知道金額很多"},{"start":4080.492,"end":4107.953,"text":"第一點你借給鼠條三兄弟就不對了啦你就講你是做土地融資房貸融資專業銀行你怎麼會去借一個奇奇怪怪的有牌的地價錢莊呢第二點這個有牌的地價錢莊還把錢借給這些更高高的那你覺得應該是要凍結多少人我認為齁其實我認為他整筆把它刪除都不夠分啦但是是這樣我是認為說給他一個機會齁"},{"start":4111.581,"end":4132.112,"text":"凍結百分之二十然後看他現在凍結就跟你原來一樣前面有簡略了不是但是差別是因為國營事業預算常常到了年底才會通過才會三途通過所以等於是等於是就完全沒有機會解凍了那就跟那個每往年都是這樣子所以就等於是簡略"},{"start":4136.542,"end":4141.323,"text":"你的意思是要他們寫出一個報告出來如何避免嗎一個月內就提出來了嗎跟委員報告一下我們真的有從委員上次開過會說過以後我們的額度已經從254億變成241億而且我們現在控管他讓他不能夠用在這個方面所以他最近的餘額只剩下130億"},{"start":4163.61,"end":4188.119,"text":"所以我們現在很注意他的資金的流向就是委員講了以後那時候的總額度254億後來我們就開始到期的有的我們就不給他轉了就只剩下241億那目前的餘額是130億那以後我們也會遵照委員的就是我們的用途你必須先給我一個告訴我我這個的用途你會用在哪裡有一個說明給我"},{"start":4188.739,"end":4209.19,"text":"可以不是用在不動產上面我們才給客戶動波所以我們一定會嚴格的去控管不要讓資金流到不動產上面因為他做到不動產等於是跟我們在競爭我們也不會希望是這個樣子他大作多作做好多年他騎在你們背上用你們的錢去做這個科目2500萬我們剛剛已經減略250萬了就減略10%了"},{"start":4215.446,"end":4219.527,"text":"所以我才會說你就不用再動了我已經檢列了就寫個報告給你啦寫個報告給你啦"},{"start":4233.895,"end":4234.816,"text":"接著我們請印刷廠"},{"start":4261.628,"end":4269.231,"text":"印刷廠第一案增略稅前金利100萬元沒問題嗎沒問題客戶自行調整廠長沒問題嗎沒問題這個溝通過了第二案增略銷貨收入500萬元成本隨同調整沒問題請稍後一下第三案"},{"start":4284.403,"end":4293.818,"text":"剪裂管理費用五萬元坑戶自營 喔 對不起 羅委員謝謝主席我想請教一下部長現在的 部長在任意刷廠"},{"start":4295.165,"end":4323.982,"text":"他的功能到底是在哪裡的以前有印統一發票吧是不是報告委員是現在好像沒有什麼特別功能然後一個那麼大的中華民國的財政部我請教部長你現在這個證交稅一天可以收多少錢就你現在這個每年都要來審這個財政部印刷廠那你知道他的稅錢紀律是多少錢"},{"start":4325.856,"end":4330.068,"text":"各位請部長說明一下說明一下印刷廠稅前經歷跟委員報告"},{"start":4333.573,"end":4355.705,"text":"最前進力的部分請等一下廠長來說明我想印刷廠到目前為止當然它還是有它的功能統一發票也並沒有完全的雲端化然後其實我們印刷廠在這個技術面上一直在提升包含就是說那個鑒別尾的所以有很多重要的一些我們上次的那個是不是也是那個花蓮鑒"},{"start":4357.746,"end":4384.41,"text":"也是請印刷廠來印製因為他在那個鑑別那個真偽的部分還有他的一個技術那個中央銀行都在做了中央銀行在新店安坑那個有中央印製廠所以我們的護照特別珍貴的比較保密性的那邊都是有人在做了那剛剛部長就是想說你的證交稅一天可以收多少"},{"start":4387.236,"end":4415.457,"text":"證交稅應該是和他的日成交量日均量如果是5000億那5000億的話我們正常來說40%大概是當沖剩下60%不是當沖就是3%跟1.5%那那個金額要看他當天的那個成交量那大概嘛你就是說日均量5000億的話對我們要再算一下來趕快你們財政部數字應該馬上送出送出來了其實你一邊多少"},{"start":4416.736,"end":4435.089,"text":"你講這個數字我是要讓部長知道說你是中華民國的財政部部長然後每年都花很多的時間在印刷廠稅前經歷2757萬身上部長你不要去管一個2000多萬的事情來那個增加稅多少3.75億你說這個多少億3"},{"start":4444.912,"end":4469.678,"text":"就是如果說五千億的成交量三四億部長我再講一次你一個證交稅一天就是三四億部長你要管的是很大的事情我不希望說部長你每天這種很小的事情然後每年都要因為這個事情煩一次你算一算十年下來你會浪費多少時間都在上面"},{"start":4470.678,"end":4480.354,"text":"你應該把多點時間去看看要怎麼樣改變台灣的稅制讓台灣在亞洲地區可以扮演"},{"start":4482.052,"end":4508.25,"text":"這個財富管理中心的位置是不是要開放比特幣各項各式的這個金融產品讓台灣可以競爭力超過香港超過新加坡我是要拜託部長要做這件事而不是每年這個省就是稅前紀律就是兩千七百萬部長如果你是說你要把心力花在比較大的事務上面"},{"start":4510.089,"end":4530.397,"text":"國家的競爭發展率比如說世界的潮流趨勢 虛擬貨幣員工的照顧台灣貧富懸殊的差距應該怎麼樣縮短國家至上民眾第一嘛想的應該是這個事所以是不是這個印刷廠是不是可以整併啊或是一次性的調整啊"},{"start":4532.182,"end":4555.054,"text":"是不是部長可以想一下這個問題 謝謝國家至上 民眾第一謝謝 謝謝委員的期許那我想印刷廠目前來說它還是存在嘛那今天是在省114年的預算是不是就預算的部分請委員支持對 廠長要多負優解讓部長少抄返你們廠裡的事情所以針對銷貨收入500萬隨成沒有問題啦好"},{"start":4559.156,"end":4562.946,"text":"第三件是簡略管理五萬元客戶自行,沒問題啊?沒問題"},{"start":4565.725,"end":4574.569,"text":"這個不要剪個5萬啦剪個20萬好了他才100萬因為預算才100萬那個報告那個賴委員這裡那個預算才100萬陳委員已經有簽名同意了他一直在檢列請他們要進行管理要好一點因為預算才100萬5萬錢很少5萬不要剪錢真的很少"},{"start":4595.097,"end":4620.572,"text":"好 結五萬了齁好 第三案改組決議好 結束了齁 余教掌好 謝謝趙委員好 台灣菸酒好 台灣菸酒公司 三十三案第一案 來 李坤城委員的"},{"start":4622.774,"end":4635.917,"text":"只要增列這個稅前金利1000萬有沒有問題那個湯總配合辦理增列1000萬增加稅前金利1000萬第二案袁寬恆委員改組決議沒問題的遵照辦理第三案要減劣銷貨成本2000萬元科目之前自行調整沒問題的沒問題的"},{"start":4652.54,"end":4661.272,"text":"這位委員可不可以讓我們再少一點三減成本 2000萬還好客戶自行調整 2000萬很多那也是保險"},{"start":4662.887,"end":4683.195,"text":"我原來的提案是五億啊我已經少一個禮物要撿一半了啊沒有 那個五億是那個助理把數字看錯了沒有沒有 你執行率都這麼低執行率這麼低就是因為很多外在的原因啊你們不同意 不同意就保留吧"},{"start":4684.076,"end":4698.256,"text":"沒有啦 我們先保留保留 保留 你這樣說你怎麼有保留啊400億 400多億他的加熱菸也賣不出去然後就是一大堆困難啊保留保留保留400多億要不保留待會再討論啦"},{"start":4699.998,"end":4728.05,"text":"保留我就堅持送就表決表決表決那好我每一個案子都幫你們這個案子我堅持就這樣子那委員我們遵照辦理就遵照辦理謝謝遵照辦理客戶自行調整客戶自行調整好來第四案李坤城委員的簡列兩百萬兩百萬有沒有問題配合辦理配合辦理客戶自行調整好"},{"start":4730.014,"end":4747.67,"text":"第五案改組決議第六案減行銷費用五百萬科目自行調整沒問題配合辦理然後第七案第七案跟第六案一樣的也是減略五百萬那這兩案就併案吧"},{"start":4749.485,"end":4774.302,"text":"好 第六案跟第七案一樣啦 併案併案就好了 郭委員檢略五百萬啦好 客戶自行調整 這兩案是一樣的好 第八案是印刷 第八第九案 呃 第八案沒有 第八案是印刷費用這個檢略一萬三百 欸一百萬 那個李坤城委員呢 那個有那個 配合辦理喔 配合辦理喔 好"},{"start":4775.342,"end":4777.163,"text":"第九案 林德福委員的前列推廣費一千萬"},{"start":4786.489,"end":4788.87,"text":"第十案 改組決議第十二案 改組決議第十三案 改組決議"},{"start":4815.339,"end":4840.385,"text":"第十四案 簡略管理費用的服務費用兩百萬元 科目自行調整配合辦理的 沒問題喔配合辦理了齁第十五案是改組決議第十六案也是改組決議董事長 配合辦理齁配合辦理十六案也沒問題十七案是凍結推展費百分之五 五趴"},{"start":4841.918,"end":4861.98,"text":"兩個月內提報告配合辦理配合辦理齁反正這個是多少錢很多餒百分之五百分之五你沒問題前面有沒有三會到年底吧因為卡到年底喔喔好OK好好第十八案齁主決議對啊因為解不了洞嘛第十九案改組決議"},{"start":4864.465,"end":4889.265,"text":"那他就寫書面報告 剛那樣寫書面報告二十案改組決議 二十一案組決議那個二十一案我提醒一下董事長董事長你也剛來 你們那營業項目太多元化了連清潔用品也在用 什麼生機真的是營業額越來越少 項目越來越多這個非酒類跟生機類的 裡頭銷售額泡麵就佔一半了"},{"start":4893.448,"end":4917.846,"text":"所以其實真的不用大費周章,就專心好好本業經營好好的,留下來做,那邊也不用做了,要花一點時間跟精神你是說什麼?我們未來會剪相了,說產品就對了你是說生技產品嗎?對啦非酒類跟非煙酒類其實像我們金酒,我說一下,像我們金酒公司還在討論說不要只做酒,是不是要學台灣煙酒做生技產品我們金酒還在這樣講"},{"start":4919.387,"end":4946.704,"text":"所以這個有時候方向這個可能整體討論我們金酒還在這樣想我們金酒還說我們怎麼只有賣酒呢這樣子可以嗎是不是像人家台灣金酒都做生技產品台酒就一個血淋淋的例子啊就是真的是沒有那麼多財多益在不同的階段都可能大家有不同討論好這是主決議你們也是真的研究一下到底方向怎麼樣我們金酒也可以學習一下"},{"start":4948.484,"end":4948.624,"text":"動節員工訓練費用5%"},{"start":4969.406,"end":4971.708,"text":"給書面報告 沒問題嗎 配合辦理23案是改組決議 沒問題就是幫球員想一下"},{"start":4983.891,"end":4985.072,"text":"配合辦理配合辦理"},{"start":5006.434,"end":5008.515,"text":"客戶自行調整26 改組決議27 改書面報告飲品及酒類產品轉型計畫"},{"start":5024.522,"end":5043.46,"text":"二十八 李坤誠委員的是要講組決議啦齁 籃球隊 雲報推廣計畫我們計畫改書面好不好書面是啊 計畫本來就是書面對 它是計畫本來就是書面配合辦理它是要寫書面報告是不是對 書面報告寫書面報告啦齁"},{"start":5047.318,"end":5072.318,"text":"李坤正委員給你書面報告三個月內二十九案也是給你書面報告公安來往的問題配合辦理配合辦理二十三十案李坤正委員的太陽光鏈建置計畫也給個報告配合辦理我們也是計畫改書面就是寫書面報告給他對對書面報告三個月內這樣委員會提出來三十一案文哲要修正三十案文哲要修正三十一案"},{"start":5073.919,"end":5092.003,"text":"如何增加主力產品市佔領營運績效 三十一案啤酒的 郭委員的好三十一案是配合辦理 配合辦理是主決議主決議好 配合辦理好 三十一案王思健委員的也是主決議書面報告"},{"start":5095.353,"end":5109.421,"text":"有沒有意見 配合辦理好 33案王思堅委員 也是書面報告配合辦理好 結束好 都審查完畢留兩位委員要宣讀喔好 謝謝大家"},{"start":5137.784,"end":5139.345,"text":"協商完成請議事人員宣讀協商結論"},{"start":5141.397,"end":5166.789,"text":"宣讀協商結論通案部分第一案修正通過第二案修正通過第三案修正通過第四案修正通過第五案修正通過台灣土地銀行股份衍進公司部分第一案第二案第三案併案增略稅前經費一億八千萬元相關收入成本隨同調整第四案改組決議第五案改組決議第六案改組決議第七案減略油電費兩百萬元"},{"start":5168.61,"end":5197.132,"text":"第八案 第九案 併案檢列領運費400萬元第十案 檢列修理保養與保固費250萬元 科目自行調整第十一案 檢列暫儲包裝代理及加工費50萬元第十二案 檢列專業服務費600萬元 科目自行調整第十三案 檢列推展費150萬元 科目自行調整第十四案 檢列管理費用200萬元 科目自行調整第十五案 檢列其他營業費用向下研究發展費用250萬元 科目自行調整"},{"start":5197.552,"end":5212.141,"text":"第十六 改組決議第十七 改組決議第十八 增業營業外收入300萬元 客戶自行調整第十九 檢列固定資產改良擴充500萬元第十八 改組決議第十一 改組決議第十二 修正通過"},{"start":5214.523,"end":5229.324,"text":"專案報告改書面報告第23案 招案通過第24案 招案通過第25案 招案通過第26案 招案通過第27案 招案通過第28案 招案通過第29案 招案通過第30案 招案通過第31案 修正通過"},{"start":5230.846,"end":5252.688,"text":"財政部印銷廠部分 增略稅前經營100萬元 科目執行調整重新宣讀第一案 增略稅前經營100萬元第二案 增略銷貨收入100萬元 成本隨從調整第三案 減略管理費用5萬元 科目執行調整第四案 改組決議台灣菸酒有限公司"},{"start":5254.651,"end":5262.323,"text":"第一 增略稅前經費一千萬元第二 改組決議第三 減略銷貨成本兩千萬元科目進行調整"},{"start":5266.198,"end":5280.429,"text":"第四案 檢列修理保養與保固費200萬元 科目執行調整第五案 改組決議第六案 第七案 併案檢列行銷費用500萬元 科目執行調整第八案 檢列印刷及裝訂及公告費100萬元 科目執行調整"},{"start":5284.386,"end":5310.513,"text":"第九案 照案通過第十案 改組決議第十一案 簡略管理費用兩百萬元第十二案 改組決議第十三案 改組決議第十四案 簡略管理費用向下服務費用兩百萬元 科目進行調整第十五案 改組決議第十六案 改組決議第十七案 照案通過第十八案 改組決議第十九案 改組決議第十二案 改組決議第十一案 改組決議"},{"start":5313.666,"end":5341.14,"text":"第二十六案 凍結員工訓練費用 百分之五一個月內提書面報告第二十三案 改組決議第二十五案 檢列一般建築及設備計畫四千萬元科目進行調整第二十六案 改組決議 提書面報告第二十七案 修正通過 提書面報告第二十八案 修正通過 提書面報告"},{"start":5343.103,"end":5367.258,"text":"第29案 照案通過第30案 修正通過 提書面報告第31案 照案通過第32案 照案通過第33案 照案通過 宣傳閉印刷廠第一案"},{"start":5370.54,"end":5395.467,"text":"重新宣讀財政部印刷廠部分第一案針葉涉嫌監獄100萬元科目自行調整 宣讀完畢好 協商完成 還有哪一個案子十一案哪一家菸酒公司的 第十一案看一下有 再宣讀一下"},{"start":5397.026,"end":5406.515,"text":"還有嗎?土英沒有嗎?沒有問題,好台灣英九股票引進公司第11案管理費用減滅200萬元客戶自行調整,宣布完畢"},{"start":5407.789,"end":5413.313,"text":"審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分有關財政部主管台灣土地銀行股份有限公司財政部印刷廠及台灣煙酒股份有限公司"},{"start":5428.664,"end":5454.772,"text":"除照協商結論通過外區部分均照列有關台灣土地銀行股份有限公司財政部印刷廠及台灣菸酒股份有限公司業務計劃部分應依據業務收支金融保險或生產成本轉投資重大之建設事業及資金用等相之審查結果隨同調整金融保險或生產成本部分隨同營業總支出審查結果調整營業總支出應隨同調整"},{"start":5458.773,"end":5471.605,"text":"資金運用部分應依據業務支出金融保險或生產成本盈虧撥補轉投資及重大建設事業等向之審查結果隨同調整請問各位對以上決議有異議"},{"start":5477.452,"end":5494.119,"text":"沒有 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其行政院秘书长率同所属就行政院所属人员涉嫌霸凌案件处置情形专题报告并被质询行政院秘书长龚明星报告委员苏巧慧等19人质询有行政院秘书长龚明星及相关人员答复说明"},{"start":1938.503,"end":1961.276,"text":"決定一登記發言委員處不在場者外其餘均已發言完必詢答結束二委員高晶素美黃建斌等二人所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會討論事項一繼續審查一百一十四年度中央政府總預算案關於行政院部分二繼續審查一百一十四年度中央政府總預算案關於大陸委員會單位預算"},{"start":1962.817,"end":1986.923,"text":"3.继续审查大陆文汇含送财团法人海峡交流基金会114年度预算书案4.继续审查大陆文汇含送财团法人台港经济文化合作策进会114年度预算书案决议1.审查114年度中央政府总预算案关于行政院部分税务部分第二款第三款第四款第五款及第七款储物列数外其余均照列税处部分第二款行政院主管"},{"start":1987.623,"end":2014.798,"text":"第一项行政院十五亿三千三百六十四万六千元本项提案一百二十八128案保留送院会处理提案内容请参阅二审查一百一十四年度中央政府总预算案关于大陆委员会单位预算税务部分第二款第四款第七款除列数外其余均照列税处部分第二款行政院主管第十五项大陆委员会原列十亿三千九百一十八万六千元简列行政支出"},{"start":2015.518,"end":2036.73,"text":"媒体政策及业务宣导费300万元第一幕一般行政300万元第二幕综合规划业务600万元第三幕经济业务300万元第五幕港澳蒙藏业务1000万元第六幕联络业务700万元科目均自行调整共计减列3200万元其余均照列改列为10亿0718万6000元"},{"start":2039.011,"end":2068.291,"text":"本项提案二十八案保留送院会处理提案内容请参阅本项通过决议三十一项请参阅三审查大陆委员会韩宋财团法人海峡交流基金会一百一十四年度预算书案收入支出本期剩余均照列本项通过决议七项请参阅四审查大陆委员会韩宋财团法人台港经济文化合作策进会一百一十四年度预算书案收入支出本期短处均照列本项通过决议一项"},{"start":2070.022,"end":2082.249,"text":"5.審查通過之決議之文字授權主席及議事人員整理6.114年度中央政府總預算關於行政院大陸委員會部分審查完畢你據審查報告函送財政委員會提報院會"},{"start":2085.311,"end":2105.854,"text":"7.有关政事别税处预算税同各机关别审查结果调整8.114年度中央政府总预算分配由立法院内政委员会审查所有之公务预算部分均审查完均拟据审查报告含送财政委员会提报院会讨论院会讨论前需交由党团协商院会讨论时由徐昭济委员新营补充说明"},{"start":2106.634,"end":2122.53,"text":"9.财团法人海峡交流基金会及财团法人台港经济文化合作策进会114年度预算书案均已审查完据分别拟据审查报告提报院会公决不需交由党团协商并推请徐召集委员新营于院会讨论时作补充说明"},{"start":2123.231,"end":2147.672,"text":"通過臨時提案議案其他事項一項決議本案採記名表決方式表決結果在場委員含主席13人贊成者7人反對者6人贊成者多數本案通過宣讀完畢好請問各位委員上次會議意思錄有錯誤或遺漏好沒有錯誤意思錄確定那繼續進行討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":2150.373,"end":2166.737,"text":"一审查委员刘雪婷等17人拟据国家公园法部分条文修正草案二审查委员徐富贵等18人拟据国家公园法部分条文修正草案三审查委员王美惠等17人拟据国家公园法第13条及第24条条文修正草案宣读完毕"},{"start":2170.435,"end":2190.083,"text":"好那我們現在介紹本日議程所列討論事項合併巡檔那現在介紹在場委員及列席官員在場委員我們有劉旭廷委員王美惠委員蘇巧惠委員黃婕委員"},{"start":2196.955,"end":2223.854,"text":"我們在場官員有內政部長劉世芳部長我們政務次...不好意思政務次長董建宏我們國家公園管理署的代理署長陳真榮我們法務部參事廖江憲我們張志榮委員也到現場"},{"start":2228.652,"end":2240.474,"text":"那我們現在請提案委員說明提案要旨我們先請劉徐廷委員你不用喔"},{"start":2245.779,"end":2260.876,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝主席首先感謝趙偉安排國家公園法的修法審查大家可以發現國家公園法其實很久沒有修了但目前為止還沒有看到行政院版這是比較遺憾的其實本席從去年"},{"start":2262.278,"end":2290.723,"text":"今年四月質詢的時候其實就強烈呼籲內政部這個希望趕快來提出院版的國家公園法但已經經過這個大半年了還沒有提出院版的修正草案這是比較可惜的這本期陣頭可以等待行政院的版本送出來之後我們再進到審查的程序我們今天按照安排應該是只有答詢嘛對不對但沒有關係但我們希望內政部不要繼續拖下去請部長趕快來進行處理這個到底待會我們在答詢的時候再來好好問到底這個院版的進度在哪裡"},{"start":2291.465,"end":2313.516,"text":"那國家公園法從這個民國61年公布實施到現在已經53年那都只有微調而沒有大修啊這部年紀比很多立法院現在立委還要大的這個法律喔其實有充滿了60年代的這個法律規定喔這個本期這次提出來的版本最大的就是一個亂丟垃圾的問題喔這個並沒有與時俱進按現行法律丟垃圾的地方不一樣"},{"start":2314.216,"end":2329.487,"text":"就適用不同的法律但因為國家公園法年久失修所以本該最嚴加保護的國家公園的這樣一個區域反而卻變成全國上下丟垃圾懲罰最輕的地方比如說非國家公園的森林用森林法56支3條這個罰還是1000到6萬元這個在"},{"start":2334.81,"end":2356.22,"text":"在一般的這個市區隨地丟垃圾是用廢棄物清理法第12條由環境部主管罰還是一千兩百元到六千元但在國家公園森林裡面亂丟垃圾竟然只要罰一千元以下這是一件非常非常奇怪的事情所以我們這一次針對在國家公園裡面這個違反不管是亂丟垃圾也好焚燒森林也好的各種"},{"start":2357.3,"end":2374.287,"text":"這個不當行為罰則做出了修訂那我們希望在今天的答詢之後可以讓內政部加速提出願版趕快讓這個法令可以有與時俱進的這樣子的一個功能在此簡單的在這邊報告提案說明以上 謝謝好好 謝謝"},{"start":2379.508,"end":2382.212,"text":"那我們現在我們請內政部長劉世芳簡短報告"},{"start":2396.423,"end":2414.091,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生大家早先感謝各位委員對於內政部尤其是國家公園署業務的關注跟指導那今天委員會召開的是審議國家公園法的部分條文修正草案一共三個案那我們應邀來備詢跟委員做一下簡單的報告"},{"start":2415.512,"end":2438.098,"text":"第一個,國家公園法從61年6月13日公布施行其他的條文到99年11月12日,奉立法院第七屆通過部分條文修正之後,使國家自然公園取得設立的法律依據。從此國家公園系統就涵蓋有包括高山、海洋、濕地、淺山生態環境跟人文古蹟、史蹟等等。"},{"start":2438.738,"end":2455.356,"text":"目前九座國家公園及一座國家自然公園已經建立了完整的這個國家的公園系統那國家公園署成立之後有結合59處重要濕地跟整體海岸地區形成全面性的國土保育的網絡那在保育復育"},{"start":2456.537,"end":2477.728,"text":"淨零、碳排、登山服務、濕地跟海岸管理、國家公園管理等方面的檢要跟各位報告如下第一個因為氣候變遷的環境挑戰那我們推動了國家公園具指標性的物種保育計畫結合公司部門的研究人力希望能夠投入棲地富裕跟確保生物多樣性的維持"},{"start":2478.989,"end":2493.378,"text":"目前為止包括玉山國家公園的台灣黑熊泰魯閣國家公園的山蕉魚墾丁國家公園的紫斑蝶這些物種保育還有東沙環礁公園的極貫海星清除等等這些也都有拍攝成紀錄片獲得國際大賞的墾丁"},{"start":2497.02,"end":2514.097,"text":"那再來就是有關2050淨零排放的目標那國家公園署當然也不能夠排外那所以我們有積極推動國家公園的碳管理計畫跟重要濕地的碳會調查計畫以生物多樣性保育為前提也是跟企業集團來合作"},{"start":2514.597,"end":2535.057,"text":"那透過劣化棲地造林以及復育海藻床等行動提升增匯的生產力並且要定期揭露碳匯的進度未來也持續國家公園在處理有關氣候變遷在調試跟減碳的工作那在登山服務方面我們已經有推動國家公園的山屋整體改善計畫"},{"start":2536.358,"end":2561.885,"text":"台灣登山申請一站式的服務網3.0提升資訊透明以簡化申請流程跟提高登山活動的安全跟宣導譬如說雪壩369山莊的興建也是透過登山山友跟環境學者的專家指導在最低限度的環境影響之下提供山友安全的登山環境那利用公司協力來推動環境永續串聯各個政府部門跟NGO等"},{"start":2562.905,"end":2576.015,"text":"共同推動一個北回歸線永續的發展軸帶那在濕地跟海岸地區的規劃管理方面呢濕地現在已經有增設屏東萬年濕地群的地方級重要濕地共計為59處面積有42730公頃"},{"start":2580.878,"end":2601.833,"text":"對尚未完成保護利用的濕地包括彰化方院濕地宜蘭52甲濕地也積極跟地方政府跟在地的NGO合作希望能夠早日完成輔導跟民智利用的依據那有鑒於國家公園內少數遊客的脫序行為譬如說墾丁沙灘的經營管理除了加強取締之外"},{"start":2603.194,"end":2610.479,"text":"我們也跟相關機關包括地方政府屏東縣政府以及地方的鄉鎮公所來合作而且希望未來可以透過通盤檢討的方式一起來處理那也跟相關的單位包括農政主管機關譬如說有關梅花路水牛這些議題也必須要跨機關有合作平台才能夠提升國家公園的油氣品質那為了配合成立這個國家公園署的組織改造"},{"start":2630.391,"end":2657.517,"text":"現在我們在處理國家公園法的修正法制作業除了委員所關心的在罰則的增加之外對於各項違規行為的樣態包括對環境影響的程度還有依比例原則如何提高還有針對重大違規的行為的保留行則之外也增訂得按次連續處罰沒入設施或工具機具未改善或回復原狀至生成其他損害的應賠償損害之規定"},{"start":2659.958,"end":2676.345,"text":"此外對於少部分山友在颱風等天災期間未經登記許可及入山或入園造成後續救援資源的耗費等也實有所聞所以也要研商如何提高罰則避免國家資源的浪費"},{"start":2677.085,"end":2680.427,"text":"那有關各位委員所建議的國家公園法的修法提案我們竟表同意那但是呢希望能夠把這個整部的國家公園法裡面包括剛剛所說的現在國家公園的各種樣態要能夠因應我們的國際上面在處理氣候變遷的調適跟減碳的原則還有呢有其他的相關法律包括國土計畫或者是相關的保育復育計畫等等"},{"start":2702.318,"end":2716.976,"text":"容我們有一些時間來把法制作業做更完整的程序整理那提早送到 儘早送到大院來審議那請大院委員可以多多指教共同完善我們國家公園的整體業務以上報告 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":2722.338,"end":2743.335,"text":"那其他單位報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那我們現在進行詢答委員諮詢前原力做幾下幾點宣告本會委員發言時間五分鐘必要時間延長一分鐘非本會委員發言時間四分鐘上午十點三十分截止發言登記那"},{"start":2747.307,"end":2759.054,"text":"我們今天處理法案 所以本次會議就不處理臨時提案 請問各位委員有沒有意見好 沒有 好那我們現在進行詢答 請登記第一位的蘇巧慧委員好 謝謝主席那我想請 先請劉部長上台好 請劉部長"},{"start":2779.54,"end":2793.796,"text":"委員好部長好我們今天雖然是審查國家公園法但是我在詢問國家公園相關問題前我還是想針對你在1月2號布務會議的時候那記者會的這個布務會議後面的記者會的發言來進行詢問"},{"start":2796.078,"end":2825.338,"text":"你其實在1月2號的時候提到才化法通過後內政部可能需要配合刪減28%的預算28%是多少其實高達了283.5億而且按照相關的法令還不能扣除法定義務支出和一般型的補助所以我想請部長你能不能再明白說明一下就是內政部有沒有試算過之後到底會減少多少然後發生什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":2826.238,"end":2841.968,"text":"就是283億嗎是的謝謝委員我們是根據這個那個行政院主計總署所提出來的就是說如果有28%的三減的額度的話那我們是哪一些額度呢可能會需要請地方政府自籌裁員"},{"start":2843.148,"end":2870.102,"text":"也就是說我們的立場不管財政收支劃分法未來到底有沒有三讀通過然後會影響到114年的預算在我們內政委員會其實已經有就是說在內政委已經有審查通過大部分的內政部的預算我們是希望按照這樣子的業務來進行但是在預算的分配就會配合在立法院的財劃法是否有送到總統府公告之後有沒有影響到114年"},{"start":2870.802,"end":2877.786,"text":"所以我們內政部是要配合行政院的整體的作業所以我們在試算的過程當中所以我覺得您應該是要趕快開始進行這相關的未來預期的狀況所以我們確實很想知道那到底哪一些"},{"start":2892.315,"end":2919.148,"text":"影響的金額是這麼高三成兩百多億將近三百億這樣的狀況那到底哪一些預算會受到影響是新興計劃嗎還是計劃型補助還是什麼部長你在這裡到底試算的結果到什麼程度了能不能跟我們分享一下也讓我們有個心理準備啊是 報告委員我想大家都知道新興計劃如果沒有經過大院在未來的一百一十四年總預算通過的時候就不能夠執行"},{"start":2920.628,"end":2940.095,"text":"但是我們現在試算的就是已經實行很多年的計畫大一部分都會放在我們國土的業務這其實跟人民一般生活很多比如說生活圈道路上或者是說人行道的安全改善中央政府跟地方政府都有一定的籌款的比例"},{"start":2942.936,"end":2950.1,"text":"那另外一個就是說我們在籌辦非常多時也深受大院很多委員同意譬如說我們的社會住宅興建還有我們包租代管業務還有我們土地租金的補貼等等這些大一部分283億的預算會落在這個區塊那這個區塊未來的增點會是說那是由地方政府來出還是中央政府出"},{"start":2965.149,"end":2991.481,"text":"因為我們認為說業務還是要照常推動不要影響到一般人民對 我們就舉一個這個人行道的改善好了過去為我的選區為新北爭取了非常多這個人行道改善計畫的補助部長你可不可以說明一下現在以新北舉例的話我們補助的乘數是多少那你有沒有預算過那未來補助的乘數是到零嗎還是是已經有一個預設的狀況我們要看一下在新北市現在多少 以現在來講的話"},{"start":2995.789,"end":3016.489,"text":"現在在那個新北市它的財力分級是第二級也就是自籌款的比例是百分之三十是啊所以現在七成都是由中央補助的喔過去我們這樣爭取的時候七成是由中央補助報告委員我跟您補充一下有關於這個租金補貼的部分呢在過去的兩年呢是全部由中央來支付"},{"start":3017.049,"end":3037.956,"text":"是這是基金補貼我剛剛說我們如果以人行道改善為例的話過去是七成是由中央補助因為我們爭取太多了所以我們印象深刻每一條如果不是中央補助的話其實這個部分幾乎沒有辦法改善這樣的狀況這是一般的狀況我們通常在過去幾年當中的前瞻基礎建設計畫裡面其實中央的這個層數就會更高"},{"start":3042.738,"end":3060.772,"text":"所以過去我們其實在前瞻計畫裡面新北市在全國的爭取數額是排名第二那在其他的中央補助方面其實我們的占比是相當的高的那現在如果新的財化法這樣通過之後我們當然樂見地方有更多的財源沒錯"},{"start":3061.713,"end":3070.584,"text":"但是到底全責怎麼分我們也是希望中央這邊能夠盡快跟地方政府討論完之後我們要有心理準備而且到底是從什麼時候就要開始啟動這樣子的一個算法這樣的一個全責分布我覺得這個部分 部長"},{"start":3077.352,"end":3085.374,"text":"因為我們會期大概就是到這個禮拜左右最多也是到1月是不是在下個會期之前你們要告訴我們也讓我們地方政府能夠了解讓全國民眾了解到底哪一些日常生活的狀況我們跟我們直接相關的建設尤其是越小型越貼近一般生活的會受到影響這個要讓我們清楚的知道未來的權責在中央還是在地方"},{"start":3100.899,"end":3122.854,"text":"是 其實我們在處理這些預算有可能會影響到我剛剛有提到我們不希望影響到一般的市民的生活當然沒有人希望影響那就是中央政府跟地方政府全責劃分的話是要每樣每樣來談是 我想這是為了政府所屬的部分大概就是在於就是剛剛所說的包括生活圈或者是道路或者是安全人行道安全等等這些"},{"start":3123.615,"end":3145.715,"text":"其實我們會一個縣市一個縣市跟他們仔細其實再跟你就教一下啦其實剛剛說到是一般人民生活有感但其實以全國大的專案來講的話比如說打炸打炸的專案現在是有跨部會73億嘛秦州警政署是有這個網路科技運用經濟計畫就高達44億那這個計畫會不會受影響我們的打炸成效會不會受影響這個到時候也應該要說明一下"},{"start":3150.9,"end":3169.236,"text":"對 網路精進計畫的話全部都是由警政署來處理是啊 所以這個2803會不會受到影響好 那如果像今天跟國家公園相關的這個太魯閣國家公園0403的地震災後復建計畫30億嘛30億 那這個會不會受到影響因為這個是以行政院的特別預算或是二倍金來處理的"},{"start":3170.037,"end":3189.294,"text":"是 所以過去行政院其實已經補助相當的多那現在的這些到底哪一些是會受到影響的我們希望在下個會議一開始的時候會部長也可以讓我們大家能夠了解全責全責的劃分我想這是全國人民都想知道的部分好 我們會以大院未來的這個設定的方向為主來做設算好 謝謝部長好 那我們請張志龍委員"},{"start":3208.851,"end":3214.894,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早安是不是請劉世芳劉部長好請部長張委員早部長早新年快樂新年快樂好首先請教部長最近社會上尤其新聞媒體上討論沸沸揚揚的就是有關於第一件要請教"},{"start":3233.758,"end":3263.096,"text":"部長就是有網紅稱台灣有超過10萬人領大陸身份證我想要請教第一點這是事實還是認知作戰有網紅拍影片說有10萬人持有中華人民共和國的身份證那10萬人的部分好像據我們現在內政部所查得的資料現在只有兩人再說現在請教第一個10萬人跟兩人中間的差異是到底誰說的是真誰說的是假"},{"start":3264.465,"end":3278.684,"text":"報告委員我想我們都是依照事實跟依照我們的法定的程序來處理那我現在只能引用我們的陸委會主委也是上個禮拜在這個接受訪問的時候有提到說"},{"start":3279.825,"end":3301.86,"text":"他們知道領有這個大陸身份證的大概是兩萬多人啦但是這個部分我們目前為止沒有任何這個法律上面的依據可以去確認所以我們仍然在查查當中那這個所謂的兩人的部分是因為在這個網紅所PO出來的這個影片裡面呢這兩人是自己把這個卡片秀出來"},{"start":3303.021,"end":3324.918,"text":"所以你們是看卡片所以看卡片卡片沒有品嚐不是我們看卡片變成有人來檢舉那目前呢我們這邊還是有人來檢舉那我們根據檢舉的部分正在查查當中所以部長的意思是說你們有跟這個陸委會甚至海基會做聯絡所以現在得知您的看法是說您認同陸委會"},{"start":3325.839,"end":3355.363,"text":"主委認為全台灣目前有兩萬人有查證過嗎有中華大陸的身份證是這樣嗎我剛有提到我們就是依法行政那個沒有確切證據之前我不會所以陸委會有證實說有兩萬人沒有我是說陸委會的主委他在接受訪問的時候就是就他們了解是這樣子的一個數目字但是我們沒有查沒有辦法去查查清楚目前為止陸委會的資料因為我跟部長報告因為那個陸委會不是你瑕疵的嘛你瑕疵的是移民署嘛"},{"start":3355.963,"end":3381.472,"text":"那所以我是說可以拜託部長這邊請移民署來去跟這個陸委會或海基會做這個各部會之間的往來是不是可以提供給我們本委員會的委員說現在到底台灣人有多少台灣人有大陸身份證的資料可不可以提供人數給我們內政委員會的委員來做參考好那是不是給我們一點時間因為我們需要跨部會去協調"},{"start":3382.332,"end":3407.558,"text":"可以可以因為我認為這樣的認知作戰是不正確的讓全台灣人覺得說好像這樣的事情是很正常的可是其實是不正常的那第二個我可不可以請問再請教你一件事因為也有這個別的委員來質詢我們本黨的陳玉珍委員說陳玉珍委員有大陸的這個身份證這一點因為有牽扯到我們國會議員的尊嚴那是不是可以請部長順便幫我們"},{"start":3409.598,"end":3423.579,"text":"各部會的資料調一下看有沒有這樣的情形來以還給我們國民黨陳一尊委員清白好但是我先跟委員報告第一個這個資然後第二個就是說有沒有而已沒有牽扯到個資"},{"start":3427.802,"end":3452.96,"text":"我跟委員報告第一個我們會按照委員的指示來辦理那第二個是各自然後第三個呢就是說有關立法委員他的這個身份問題等等啦還是以立法院的這個委員職權行使法裡面為主那我想我們按照這些法令來執行的話我們會按照程序來處理好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝部長那第二個要請教部長的是最近也是有新聞說有這個列政部有查出有五個里長"},{"start":3454.641,"end":3483.961,"text":"是有取得這個大陸身份證的一個狀況沒有放棄中國國籍的部分請問這個資料部長你們是如何得知是我們從包括移民單位裡面所得到的就是說第一個在這五位里長他們在法定的時間內並沒有提供給我們相關單位他放棄中國國籍的證明"},{"start":3485.001,"end":3504.071,"text":"所以他們沒有因為他們有中國國籍可是沒有在預定的時間中法定的時間中給你們相關的資料可是就這個想法我想請教部長的是說因為現在依照特殊的狀態其實依照兩岸的民關係條例大陸是屬於我們中華民國的地區"},{"start":3505.131,"end":3520.872,"text":"那如果以這個兩岸人民關係條例的適用的話當然也有委員提出來是不是就不適用國籍法的規定那這個兩岸人民關係條例在特殊情形下是不是可以先適用兩岸人民關係條例而不是用國籍法請部長稍微解釋一下"},{"start":3521.712,"end":3546.398,"text":"謝謝委員我想我們電政部已經有多次對外說明我們在民國112年的時候呢已經有那個行政院的含釋就是兩岸條例從81年開始公佈到現在兩岸互不隸屬是一個事實而且是現況那所以中國大陸人民跟中華民國國民是明顯有別那麼按照憲法第三條的規定具有中華民國國籍者為中華民國國民"},{"start":3549.699,"end":3577.021,"text":"那民國89年的國籍法修法已經定義國籍的用詞由中國人修正為中華民國國民那入出國籍移民法第三條第一款也規定中華民國國民是指具有中華民國國籍之居住台灣地區設有戶籍國民或台灣地區無戶籍國民我要跟委員報告你只要跟我們講法條是什麼就好不用念法條的內容不然時間拖太久"},{"start":3578.142,"end":3597.618,"text":"兩岸人民關係條例 國籍法 戶籍法所以這些 喔 了解所以這些都是高於這個兩岸人民關係條例所以現在就不是用這個兩岸人民關係條例用您剛剛講的這些法條嗎那本席尊重好 那下一個問題本席還是要請教剛剛我們很多委員有在請教的就是說在財化法通過了以後這個"},{"start":3600.7,"end":3623.289,"text":"內政部有一個新聞稿跟臉書上面就寫說義務支出將減少28%影響民生政策跟新的計畫推動的問題可是我們也都知道主計處現在已經2025年的主計處說沒有要重編任何的財務資料我想要請教部長的部分就是說現在"},{"start":3624.89,"end":3649.748,"text":"主計處還沒有算出來內政部到底是減多少的義務支出有確定是28%啦報告我跟委員都有提到過我們是根據設算的基礎去算出來的那這是由會計單位提供的主計處有提供你們就是減少28%未來一定會減少28%理論上但是因為114年的預算如果大院都通過的話我想就不會影響"},{"start":3650.909,"end":3677.39,"text":"那其實最要拜託部長的就是說因為我本身我們選區在中和其實我們有爭取污水下水道的一個改建案那這一個污水下水道的改建也是百分之百中央補助我們不需要說這個有任何的影響因為大家都知道說在113年的稅收超出了五千多億五千多億的金額其實是可以來去做在財化法的影響下可以來去做互相的一些"},{"start":3678.391,"end":3698.214,"text":"所以我希望說部長是不是可以再下個位置還是盡快提出財化法修正後這個內政部他整個預算整體的編列的狀況因為內政部是掌管我們全台灣所有這個非常重要最大的一個部會可以嗎"},{"start":3698.815,"end":3724.93,"text":"是不過我先跟委員補充一下如果是原來的特別預算也就是前瞻基礎建設預算的話其實不會受到所謂的年度預算的業務推動的影響那如果說是未來假設未來2025或是2026是受到未來的財化法的比例上分配的話我們也是要先跟縣市地方政府來談論就是說某一條大的建設計畫是要怎麼樣做財源的比例分配"},{"start":3725.47,"end":3746.579,"text":"那我們的原則我看中央政府跟地方政府的原則都是希望能夠照常推動只是說那個錢要由誰出這個就是變成大家要來一起努力的那有沒有機會就是說2025年的部分因為稅收超徵的部分所以2025年的預算不管是中央地方的預算就照過去的計劃書的部分繼續去推動等2026年討論2026不要討論2025"},{"start":3749.78,"end":3768.369,"text":"報告委員 稅收超徵與否大概不是內政部主管可是部長你可以提出建議啊我們是把我們的需求送到行政院要求行政院在做那個各部會跨會協調的時候明年不一定有稅收超徵嘛好 所以拜託部長我這是一個很好的提議請部長參考好嗎好 謝謝好 請蔓玉珍委員"},{"start":3788.137,"end":3794.28,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請部長好 請部長給你喝一杯我看你喝 為什麼要喝茶給你喝一杯"},{"start":3812.455,"end":3828.215,"text":"麥美媛好 新年快樂 新年快樂 部長好第一個題目我想要跟你講的是說我們民進黨現在在搞政治清洗 清算"},{"start":3829.857,"end":3853.857,"text":"鬥爭執政八年不修憲現在在立法院變成少數黨的時候再來想透過操弄意識形態來製造對立製造國內緊張的芒果乾請教部長中華民國憲法增訂修文第十一條條文的內容是什麼因為剛才我看你都講條文我問一下"},{"start":3858.066,"end":3874.836,"text":"可不可以請麥委員再講第8條的條文第11條的條文的內容是什麼自由地區與大陸地區人民權利義務關係及其他事務之處理得以法律為特別之規定"},{"start":3877.773,"end":3903.994,"text":"對 所以是自由地區與大陸地區間人民權利義務關係及其他事務的處理得以法律為特別的規定嘛 對不對所以呢 我們要請教我們的部長在兩岸人民關係的條例第九之一條的第二項的內容又是什麼呢"},{"start":3906.223,"end":3915.588,"text":"就要唸出來是嗎對啊第九一條的第一項是台灣地區人民不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照"},{"start":3917.609,"end":3938.576,"text":"這是第一項第二項違反前項規定在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照者除經有關機關認為有特殊考量必要外喪失台灣地區人民身份及其在台灣地區選舉罷免創制複決擔任軍職公職及其他已在台灣地區設有戶籍所衍生相關權利"},{"start":3939.936,"end":3962.163,"text":"並由戶政機關註銷其台灣地區之戶籍登記但其因台灣地區人民身份所付之責任及義務不因而喪失或免除第三項本條例修正施行前台灣地區人民已在大陸地區涉及或領用大陸地區護照者其在本條例修正施行之日起六個月內"},{"start":3963.943,"end":3979.75,"text":"註銷大陸地區戶籍或放棄領用大陸地區護照並向內政部提出相關證明者不喪失台灣地區人民身份是的 說說照這樣子的話我們是沒有台灣的 沒有大陸的"},{"start":3984.785,"end":3992.609,"text":"戶籍就是我們的公職及其他在台灣設有戶籍所延伸的相關權利為什麼當初憲法增訂條文有兩岸關係兩岸條例的這樣子的規定就是因為我們不承認中華民國"},{"start":4007.936,"end":4016.339,"text":"中華人民共和國是個國家嘛所以沒有放棄國籍的要求只是要求放棄我們大陸的戶籍對不對沒有要求兩岸關係我們的大陸配姊妹放棄國籍的要求"},{"start":4028.425,"end":4039.03,"text":"要求他們放棄戶籍所以現在你是承認我們的中華人民共和國是一個國家是嗎中華人民共和國是一個國家我們當然承認全世界都承認中華人民共和國是一個國家所以我們是台灣跟他們是兩國之間是嗎我們是中華民國所以兩國之間所以你們的兩岸關係有要求放棄國籍"},{"start":4058.356,"end":4068.299,"text":"要求誰放棄誰的國籍陸配有要求他們放棄國籍嗎還是你們兩岸之間只要求他們放棄戶籍而已中華民國的國民有他的權利跟義務那義務的話包括要服兵役但是呢如果是有專政權的話他有進入我們台灣的身份是你們要求的但是我們一擊中華"},{"start":4084.105,"end":4103.293,"text":"民國的那個憲法已規定可以得到只要上市大陸的戶籍以大陸的護照就可以擁有台灣地區的選籍權依法擔任公職這個是你們剛才你也講說我們是只要放棄這個是因為我們進來台灣的身份陸配他是用兩岸關係條款拿到身份證"},{"start":4112.797,"end":4128.043,"text":"外配是有用國籍法所以當你進來的身份如果你全部用國籍法你覺得說他兩國關係你就是用國籍法但是你沒有用國籍法也是這個是你們規定讓我們在台灣拿到身份的不是我們自己說的算嘛但是你現在就拿這個來說就是這個條款"},{"start":4137.907,"end":4143.864,"text":"這樣子的話條文很清楚但是為什麼你去造謠說他們這樣子的自己解釋的"},{"start":4145.23,"end":4147.131,"text":"的法律但是你要求的跟你解釋的法律就完全不一樣所以我們台灣有38萬的陸配擁有對岸的國籍沒有私校難道這些就是在選舉剛才你說里長有幾個這個選舉之前登記你們覺得合法合規合理的"},{"start":4168.28,"end":4170.261,"text":"才讓他們去選的嘛 選上了 現在你再拿國籍法來去卡大家所以你現在就是要創造兩國之間的鬥爭嗎報告委員 我們並沒有說謊 內政部的主管的法律當然是國籍法如果今天它不是中華人民共和國"},{"start":4191.914,"end":4201.542,"text":"她是美國 她是英國 她是日本如果她當選了民意代表的話她也必須要放棄她在日本 美國 英國的國籍所以我們都一律適用並沒有特別的規段進來的條款你就是要規定了不要等說拿到身份證再來規定這樣叫人家生小孩生了以後說你不可以先把她塞進去這樣不行的"},{"start":4217.114,"end":4219.617,"text":"我們才化法居住正義,剛才我們委員都有問說,我們才化法,我們法律已經通過了嗎?"},{"start":4237.177,"end":4241.218,"text":"有通過了 有執行了嗎會影響到今年114年了嗎還沒有嘛但是呢 你到處來去宣傳剛才有委員把你的新聞稿 還有你的公文什麼都放上去但是呢 在我們追求真相的時候呢打破你的謊言 就是財政部我們沒有說謊 我一直在表達這是涉算這是涉算 不是試算你想到今年是"},{"start":4267.246,"end":4279.192,"text":"你要去算什麼 我們還沒有執行你不能說這樣子去做造謠 讓人民誤解報告委員 我們都按照大院的規定來執行大院的規定 這樣我們是財政部長我們莊部長 還有主機總署"},{"start":4284.955,"end":4287.677,"text":"主機長陳總機長兩位在12月30號他也在質詢的時候說一算今年114年不會有衝突也不會重編但是你依據哪裡說我們今年114年我們的居住正義就有影響"},{"start":4308.65,"end":4314.835,"text":"所以就是你這造謠嘛 讓人民不懂得法律的時候 這是第一章我們說居住正義不受影響的狀況之下 要中央政府跟地方政府一起來討論如何分配財源如何分配沒錯 但是目前還沒有進行 也法律還沒有上過 所以我們希望"},{"start":4330.346,"end":4333.328,"text":"我們的部長不叫就是創造更多的讓我們人民的好讓我到目前為止都是理性來回應您的問題沒錯 但是我們財化法還沒有開始希望我們的部長 如果大家都像部長這樣子的話就是亂編 就是亂造謠我們也沒有亂編 是經過立法院審議通過的我們內政委員會審議通過 謝謝"},{"start":4359.804,"end":4370.15,"text":"才不會讓這個就是去造謠把錢還給人民這樣才是真正的去處理謝謝委員 我們一點都沒有造謠好 我們請黃美惠委員主席我們這裡保證"},{"start":4388.444,"end":4392.549,"text":"那個國家公園署來部長跟我們代理署長委員長早部長認真發表認真做為了這個採訪法的成功"},{"start":4403.868,"end":4407.17,"text":"大家互相尊重啦因為事情發生我們應該是在三獨的進展要整個好啦到現在到在那裡說有夠不夠跟你說白痴怎麼樣我覺得對你也很不禮貌啦"},{"start":4420.959,"end":4423.803,"text":"因為一個國家一個地方都希望可以有經費去地方建設像我來自嘉義市,嘉義市現在也要做嘉義市市民中心"},{"start":4437.159,"end":4439.461,"text":"在84年今年已經是一國第一的分母黨要做了在這個過程當中,我也會歡樂說,到下一代不知道會不會上山去,做一半也不會一般的自尊的佩穗都會這麼的歡樂"},{"start":4462.775,"end":4469.258,"text":"像我們自己在骨髓下水道做得這麼快做得這麼好的時候每天的病每天要做的事我們也會怕因為我們會知道說是什麼的補助沒有應用到什麼的補助沒有應用到即使民意代表都為了那些"},{"start":4486.525,"end":4489.386,"text":"我們會發生什麼?因為在這兩年,加拿大也需要我們中央的補助有的人說,加拿大未來才會發貨,可以賺很多錢這不是賺很多錢或不賺很多錢,是一個體制,要讓國家安然平靜"},{"start":4513.373,"end":4514.734,"text":"這個才是我最好的,所以我願望,不像你說的,還未決定,如果有一個視線的時候,我認為大家就是要認真去思考未來有很多發生的問題"},{"start":4532.671,"end":4537.055,"text":"我們不是說看誰要來處理看誰要來整理說跟誰應該要補助、不用補助、要做什麼我們也要順便做我們不是看一間公司而已我們是看這麼多公司二十多個縣市裡面不是跟一個縣市你的歡樂啊所以本席要跟你說的就是說你不要看什麼事情"},{"start":4562.555,"end":4567.718,"text":"在他們的才華發揮時,尤其是高利貸,拜託保證,注意一下到現在有的做得好,未來要做得好,要拜託注意高利貸的保證"},{"start":4578.064,"end":4583.271,"text":"我跟委員報告一下剛才委員所說的跟他市政府的市民中心這個屆委的委員很大的情緒都中補助現在是一千七百...對不起"},{"start":4596.896,"end":4604.98,"text":"對,1億多,1億1700多港粉5噸然後全部是中央啦中央,我們也知道市政府是市長不一定是民進黨籍但是這個部分是一百四十年的新興計劃新興計劃那新興計劃的話如果大院完全通過整體的行政院的計劃的時候我們才能夠按照這個計劃的執行進度去執行"},{"start":4624.691,"end":4626.852,"text":"新興計劃一定要通過這個大院114年的這個整體的計劃 它是一個計劃你現在再說回來就是說本身它在想要去這個市民中心的時候它就是有起這個計劃讓你們在委員會來評審之後"},{"start":4643.943,"end":4651.57,"text":"大家共同的努力,才有這個經濟好的嘛因為我直接要跟你說,因為說實在的,我沒有分什麼黨因為一旦來到中央,就是為國鄉建築,我們的市長也很認真的,我們家庭市民的社會也很認真的,所以我也"},{"start":4668.524,"end":4672.107,"text":"很認真在中央證出我們的遺産在這個規定當中這個市民中心已經很久了萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬萬"},{"start":4697.348,"end":4701.633,"text":"這裏面因為本縣先幫你探討這個地方的建設的問題因為我也會歡樂在這今天我們說國家公園花本縣也有提出"},{"start":4715.769,"end":4720.571,"text":"要修法,在這個修法當中,最近我們的跨年,也有人去背書給一個團體一個人丟包啦在這個當情,同樣跨年的時候,也給一個團體一個人丟包啦"},{"start":4740.021,"end":4743.262,"text":"要不說命運不一樣啦今年的跨年晚會 那個平安就來了另外一小時的跨年晚會 一起的時候因為他有酒頭撞到 再來的時候 已經過世夢了啦所以 部長 署長 我要跟你說 因為現在"},{"start":4768.627,"end":4773.693,"text":"臉書也好,耳朵也好,很方便的,在酒廊打掃,那是非常不安全,不公平所以本學在這裡,因為這順的時間夠了,我有提出我的手法"},{"start":4788.644,"end":4796.388,"text":"我們有說看多少資金,看多少,我都覺得這都太久了在這個過程當中,我們要趕緊跟林務署下去合作,因為我覺得你們的國家"},{"start":4806.813,"end":4811.035,"text":"國家事務會公文裡面,你們看,如果有點會收到的,你們再給這邊看,我覺得你們要一個統籌,要怎麼做,不然現在這裡不是我要看的,要再過這邊,這樣沒辦法做工作啦"},{"start":4826.36,"end":4831.364,"text":"我們未來國家公園法如果修過以後那個農業部或者是交通部跟國家公園相關或是地方公園的這個相關的法則會趨於一致"},{"start":4851.381,"end":4869.591,"text":"因為我認為這樣也好 也要顧及出來 不能說會害死人 做會害死人我們現在還要再跟原住民委員會有關狩獵的部分 再做一下清楚的交代跟分析那會儘早送到大院來審查好 謝謝 議長好 我們請徐維珍委員"},{"start":4881.728,"end":4882.189,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請劉部長"},{"start":4890.033,"end":4916.536,"text":"徐文早部長早部長內政部今天對於委員所提的國家公園的修法看起來好像沒有表示什麼意見但是對於立法院三讀通過的裁劃法內政部就有很多的意見因為本席發現我們內政部的臉書指出立法院三讀通過裁劃法會大幅減少中央的裁員支出經過試算明年要至少必須刪減約"},{"start":4917.617,"end":4922.199,"text":"283.5億的支出就是佔總額的28%才能勉強打平請問劉部長114年度內政部的預算我們內政委員會已經完成出審了那請問內政部有被刪除283.5億元的經費嗎報告委員我剛有特別提到114年的預算在內政委員會已經完成審查送到這個財政委員會去"},{"start":4944.191,"end":4970.258,"text":"那所以我們要按照立法院未來在處理行政院的整體預算的進度來執行那我剛剛有跟委員有提告提報過就是我們現在的設算就是如果按照新的財化法的話呢在內政部最大的影響量是減少28%但是這次28%不是針對114年的部分但是我們用114年比較完整的部分請我們的會計單位去算出來的所以它叫一個試算"},{"start":4971.178,"end":4993.856,"text":"是 您在臉書的部分有特別提到就是114年的為例 用這個為例是 但是我在想啦 因為明明就已經通過了這個114年的預算喔那我覺得內政部現在用這樣子一個臉書事實上就在釋放假訊息啊所以是不是要讓我們這個在第二輪協商的時候是不是要請我們要提案3減28%才能夠這個提的"},{"start":4997.038,"end":4998.119,"text":"所以今年是沒有要重編的"},{"start":5015.472,"end":5016.412,"text":"我們按照大約的指示"},{"start":5044.691,"end":5055.379,"text":"了解 我回去來檢討一下好嗎是 我覺得這個既然不是今年度的狀況我覺得要嘛就撤掉要嘛就是你們再一個重新的散佈一個真實的狀況以114年度來說不會有這樣子的一個預算被刪減的一個狀況好嗎好 謝謝我來檢討 謝謝委員指教謝謝"},{"start":5064.525,"end":5078.135,"text":"那尤其在裡面還有一點就說你這邊的連述有提到說三減涉災興建與住宅補貼等計劃如果說真的預算不足的話三減預算是不是應該以不會影響民生問題的預算為主對不對"},{"start":5080.717,"end":5094.582,"text":"部長請問一下如果真的預算不足我們刪減預算是不是應該以不會影響民生問題的預算為主我們不管是不是民生或是其他的預算我覺得都不應該刪減那如果真的預算不足的話是不是應該先以民生問題的這個預算要先"},{"start":5100.144,"end":5106.067,"text":"我們按照預算科目應該編列因為我現在發覺內政部這一次在臉書上列出來刪減的都是民生必要的項目但是像是媒體宣傳這個部分就完全都不刪減請問這是要宣傳嗎因為比如說像上面有提到內政部編列的言論自由紀念活動媒體製作脫波及刊登費用二二八國家公園紀念館的展覽與營"},{"start":5125.877,"end":5138.09,"text":"引因相關媒體宣導作用跟威權統治時期國家不法行為受害者權利回復相關媒體宣傳費用難道這些的宣傳都比租金補貼還要重要嗎"},{"start":5140.885,"end":5157.458,"text":"內政部說這個警政署反詐騙的相關技術更新跟基層執行力強化計劃因預算不足而延後推進可是卻一直持續的投入這個資金在自然憑證的推廣活動的媒體宣傳費用這不是本末導致嗎"},{"start":5158.715,"end":5176.326,"text":"抱歉抱歉那個跟委員報告一下我們預算都是按照科目來編列而不是說整體全部把它當成一項來編列那您剛講到就是說我們關心有關民生建設的部分那我看在你們的臉書上面所要刪減的部分全部都是跟民生有關的"},{"start":5177.186,"end":5197.48,"text":"反而宣傳的部分通通都沒有提到還是照樣好像就是要繼續來執行報告委員我想我們的本意一定不是這個樣子我們只是說明出未來的設算的話是地方政府要籌設的裁員可能會因為中央政府刪除掉以後地方政府要增加這些裁員他剛剛部長已經允諾就是有關你們臉書釋放的不實的言論你們會再重新來檢討我們未來怎麼來處理我覺得還是要讓社會大眾讓民眾了解真正今年度"},{"start":5206.326,"end":5209.808,"text":"我們的預算沒有從編也不會三減28%的預算讓大家很清楚今年的狀況財化法的增加只會讓我們的財源當地方的自主現在只是讓我們本來屬於地方的財源還給地方"},{"start":5221.773,"end":5236.144,"text":"本來中央跟地方本來就是60跟40的比例現在已經變成中央75 地方25地方少了15%的財源他們這個地方的財源自主的狀況沒有辦法達到所以我們現在只是把原來屬於地方的15%"},{"start":5238.726,"end":5257.086,"text":"這個還給他們10%所以這樣並不會影響到中央的任何裁員那未來中央跟地方要怎麼去協調每個項目的怎麼樣來使用中央地方平均來分配我想比較理性的做法就是說我們讓中央政府跟地方政府共同來算一下裁政收支劃分法裡面"},{"start":5260.048,"end":5279.056,"text":"來去面對這個已經三讀通過的財化法應該是大家來去面對怎麼樣對地方跟中央好我覺得這樣子比較重要但是地方政府有一些是國民黨籍的地方政府有告訴我們說就算按照新的財化法通過之後他們未來所要擔負的財源反而沒有轉轉像現在這麼好因為還有特別預算在預算這個財化法已經三讀通過了就應該要讓財化法正式的實施未來這些問題我們再來討論謝謝"},{"start":5290.863,"end":5293.348,"text":"好 謝謝徐局長委員 那再來我們請劉許廷委員謝謝主席 這個劉部長有請"},{"start":5304.135,"end":5320.268,"text":"幾件事情跟部長做一下探討這首先是剛剛很多委員關心很多媒體記者在外面其實也都期待部長有明確的說法就是說有關於身份證還有里長違反這樣子的一個條件然後可能會被解職的這個狀況"},{"start":5322.21,"end":5340.471,"text":"這個本席理解這民進黨政府有自己的一個主張啦你剛剛有講說基本上因為國籍法有規定嘛如果有外國國籍者當然就不能在中華民國擔任公職嘛對不對你那說法是這樣對不對民選公職跟法定的公職都在內都在內嘛因為不能有外國國籍嘛這是國籍法的規定嘛那"},{"start":5341.252,"end":5368.586,"text":"我就問了嘛現在按照這個民進黨政府的解釋基本上就把中華人民共和國視為外國嘛所以才會有適用國籍法的問題對不對因為從憲法到兩岸人民關係條例到國籍法到戶籍法還有剛剛我提到的不管是從81年89年或者是102年的你只有講戶不隸屬啦但是他是不是外國我認為是還有討論的所以我有提到行政院的含釋告訴我們現在的解釋就是當成外國嘛"},{"start":5368.806,"end":5376.791,"text":"好那這個當然就是在外面從政治的角度解讀這要變成兩國論從事實上來看也是一樣的我想請部長評論一下如果他是外國的話那為什麼我們現在在立法院裡面這個海基會跟陸委會放在內政委員會他為什麼不是放在國防外交委員會為什麼"},{"start":5389.704,"end":5413.355,"text":"海基會他是民間團體海基會跟陸委會嘛譬如說預算審查有他們的時候對不對這個上個禮拜我們還在審他們的預算他們為什麼被放在內政委員會所以如果立法院要更改我們沒有意見因為委會他的功能跟職長不是由內政部來調查的你認為這是立法院的決定好沒關係那我再問如果他是外國的話因為互不隸屬的關係嘛這是你現在的主張為什麼我們特別需要兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":5415.322,"end":5438.157,"text":"你所有東西都比照國外國籍法是最重要的如果回歸到原來的兩岸人民關係條例的話就是回歸到中華民國開始有總統選舉的時候那時候的中華民國的總統是李登輝先生那他所提出的特殊國與國關係所以變成兩岸人民關係一路修法以來就是用這樣的方向來處理我們也是按照兩岸人民關係條例所賦予的國籍法跟戶籍法來做修正"},{"start":5440.267,"end":5452.39,"text":"實際上來講就是特殊的關係嘛那他到底是國與國的關係但是是特殊的國與國關係大概李登輝總統他是這樣明示所以在當時李登輝總統是執政的總統所以當時的兩岸人民關係條例的修正一直這樣下來我知道你要講什麼但是你剛剛講說兩岸是特殊國與國關係這是你自己的主張還是行政院跟賴總統的主張"},{"start":5464.592,"end":5487.061,"text":"報告委員我對我來講行政院的主張或是賴總統的主張不是由我可以來幫他們回應但是在我來講我們內政部所主導的現在現在是內政部的主張不是主張內政部裡面是依照法律授予給我們的權利去做行政的規範所以不是主張"},{"start":5487.921,"end":5510.097,"text":"不是主張是我們依法行政我們內政部的主導是國籍法跟戶籍法那國籍法跟戶籍法如果跟兩岸人民關係條例跟兩岸人民關係條例有模糊的空間的時候行政院的含釋所以剛剛我在念的部分有包括行政院的含釋所以某一些層面這樣子的政策指導就來自於行政院嗎"},{"start":5511.089,"end":5539.975,"text":"對不對就是說你可以用這樣的方式來認定因為你拿的是行政院的含釋嘛今天我們談這個事情並不是本席要跟你在辯論這個東西到底誰對誰錯沒有的現在民進黨是執政黨我們也沒有打算繼續當什麼剎車皮但是我想講得很清楚的是如果你要講它是特殊國與國關係或者是你想要實踐所謂的兩國論請你由上到下一貫的東西包含建請立法院把陸委會跟海基委移到國防外交委員會包含討論廢止所謂的兩岸人民關係條例如果你真的要做"},{"start":5540.535,"end":5567.81,"text":"你就好好的去做如果你考量有特殊的狀況他必須承認特殊的狀況請你也不要雙標這是本屆的主張這是委員的主張還是整個國民黨團這樣的主張這是我的主張因為現在在立法院裡面國民黨團其實他是占多數他的發言權以及他立法的權力都比民進黨團來的高那我的瞭解的立場很簡單就是我們台灣是法治的國家我們行政權是受立法權來規範的"},{"start":5569.491,"end":5593.086,"text":"我們現在在處理的過程當中如果是屬於可以被授權的行政規範的話內政部可以主導的部分內政部來主導所以你就是被行政院授權的嘛內政部如果不能主導因為它跨部會所謂的兩岸人民關係條例的主管機關是入委會我們內政部是國級跟部級那我們一定要讓行政院來做它的解釋機關那如果不行的話目前看起來行政院的解釋就是偏剛剛部長的講法嘛"},{"start":5594.147,"end":5597.568,"text":"要不然你也沒有辦法這麼流暢的把它講成經濟學我們按照他給我們的公文每一個字每一個字幾句真說而且不是我個人的主張是我們內政部的法治單位跟我們的主管單位的主張把它寫成白紙黑字的做法否則公務員無法"},{"start":5619.733,"end":5643.04,"text":"我這一段質詢我讓你講很長的一段時間你總得讓我把我們的說法講清楚其實本席的概念無他你中央政府現在是行政院的含釋我們就當成是行政院的詮釋他如果他這樣的主張他有這樣子的一個說法這個當然大家可以尊重但是問題就是說其他的部分請你比照辦理不要做半套吃自助餐這樣子好像不太好好不好這本席的立場就是這樣"},{"start":5643.8,"end":5651.167,"text":"那希望這個題目可能才剛開始那未來不管是昨天長怎麼去講甚至賴總統怎麼去講這我們就看著辦好這是第一個題目第二個題目是財務法這個題目就剛剛部長在臉書上的說法跟你剛剛在答詢的說法這個落差就蠻大的因為你在這個臉書的說法是直接講說預算會減少28%然後很遺憾這些東西要不見了"},{"start":5669.204,"end":5692.363,"text":"你們的臉書的寫法是比較強硬的可是剛剛在回答好幾位委員的質詢的時候你又講這只是可能那到底是可能還是確定報告委員114年的部分如果行政院的三讀通過整個行政院的計畫的話那114年的所有的預算就是按照我們委員會審查或者是到立法院的院會審查的結果這樣處理是按照審查的結果嗎"},{"start":5692.503,"end":5714.324,"text":"但是我要跟委員報告財化法通過在去年年底的時候我們的會計單位他會設算因為大家都知道我們設算概算都要前九個月前十個月他就會想說如果不是一百一十四年是一百一十五年的部分所以到時候就有一個二十八趴的這個說法這個討論很多次了是的但是部長這個你有接收到來自於上面的指令嗎說會看二十八趴"},{"start":5715.932,"end":5733.483,"text":"我們是按照主計處告訴我們說設算28%的狀況之下去設算一下但是並沒有說什麼時候要設出來你知道上禮拜在財政委員會討論的時候不管是行政院的副秘書長或者是上禮拜在這邊行政院的秘書長包含這個主計都講說沒有要刪除28%這件事你知道這回事嗎"},{"start":5738.167,"end":5751.865,"text":"我想28%刪除這件事情不是用刪除應該是說比例上的分配會分配到地方政府不是用刪除那為什麼你在內政部的臉書上你可以講說這些東西我們要被迫減少他如果不是刪除為什麼叫被迫減少"},{"start":5752.566,"end":5767.051,"text":"被迫減少就是內政部的預算被迫28%不見了可能會到地方政府去啊你現在又講可能你在臉書上你講我們被迫要削減了你可沒有講可能所以我剛有跟徐委員回答說我回去檢討一下我們在臉書上面的減持用字"},{"start":5768.137,"end":5793.808,"text":"你現在又要檢討遣職用制是真的是這樣子報告委員我們在處理預算的過程當中本來就是會有一來一往然後三讀通過時候的三讀通過的版本那現在如果說大院跟行政院已經都我不知道溝通好協調好沒有就是說114年是按照原來的部分那這件事情對我們來講就是我們在去年年底發布的時候太快"},{"start":5794.608,"end":5811.848,"text":"好那既然太快的話我們就願意檢討那個潛池用字就這樣你要檢討潛池用字我們希望盡快看到這一篇臉書貼文的文字修正啦這個你要檢討幾個我就隨便舉個例子比如說這段時間國土署當然很支持我們桃園通過一條便衣道路的這樣子的一個經費那他就特別去講如果因為財務法有調整"},{"start":5812.609,"end":5829.703,"text":"那缺少的部分其實要有地方的增加的統籌分配款來補助其實這就是一個比較健康的對話因為這個東西一定會事前調整這本席完全理解不太可能你中央少了一大塊三千多億的預算然後這個你要自己把這個錢變出來然後地方什麼都不增加不對的這是調整補助比例嘛"},{"start":5830.023,"end":5853.713,"text":"原本來73開的可能變成55開可能變成這樣的狀況這些調整都合理但是怎麼樣來...可是是按照地方政府五級的制度來做調整對啦 你會有一套調整規則 這我們都理解所以說新的法上路之後一定會磨合一段時間然後哪些項目做哪些調整才會比較明確你如果在這些項目確定之後你再來發臉書說哪些地方有可能會影響可能影響來自於地方政府不願意配合或怎麼樣那大家情有可原"},{"start":5854.173,"end":5869.368,"text":"但是在這個東西還沒出來之前我希望內政部謹言慎行好不好財化法部分是這樣最後一個那個國家公園法今天的主題啊這個院版什麼時候會出來我只問這個問題就好了我剛剛有提到我們現在比較大的困擾那個交通部跟農業部大概比較不是"},{"start":5870.009,"end":5874.11,"text":"問題就是罰則比較不是問題還有裡面有牽涉到原住民的狩獵的部分另外我們還有國土計畫法裡面的保育的問題會比較困擾一點我想這個我們會清楚我們盡量在今年會提出到大院今年會提出來是嗎如果是今年的話這本席倒是蠻樂觀其成的希望盡速來執行希望今年我們可以把國家公民法好久沒修正來做一次徹底的檢討可以嗎"},{"start":5895.754,"end":5898.659,"text":"好 謝謝部長 不好意思當作私下了 謝謝好 謝謝劉許廷委員 再來我們請李柏毅委員部長先休息了部長先休息一下齁來我先請董事長"},{"start":5914.857,"end":5933.614,"text":"今天修法的這個內容主要針對這個國家公園那我跟次長在這個會期其實在張昭偉的協助下我們就已經去這個柴山國家自然公園有去做了一個會刊那這個公園現在也已經好了但是我後面還有一些相關的"},{"start":5934.599,"end":5955.971,"text":"爭取就是陳其邁市長也拜託我啦說我們是不是可以跟部長這邊來爭取一下那大概是這樣子那一天我們也去走了不過董事長沒去我是在會刊之後我們會刊之後的一個禮拜這個我們署長有去啦那我們去從這個翠華路這邊因為高雄市政府做了一個翠華路的拓寬然後我們從翠華路"},{"start":5956.691,"end":5984.697,"text":"國家自然公園的這個路口那我們走上去從最南邊走到最北邊最北邊可以看什麼可以看TSMC可以看台積電目前有兩個廠第一個廠那一天正在做基台的這個移入那第二廠第三廠現在甚至第四廠第五廠都已經今年要動工了那這一條步道呢未來會很多人來朝聖那所以說"},{"start":5985.197,"end":6010.164,"text":"我們希望來整理這個步道讓這個步道可以更加的除了保存它自然的風貌以外那也可以有一個點可以去看在半屏山上看護國神山這個景點來 次長什麼時候可以邀請你來跟我去這個議座只要提出時間我們全力配合好 這個其實我等一下會邀請部長"},{"start":6012.025,"end":6033.651,"text":"那針對部長剛剛講的有一個內容就是近五年來其實我也做了整理近五年來在國家公園有一些風災的時候其實如果在風災的期間那還是有這些登山客進入國家自然公園等等的那我們要跟包含農業部林務局"},{"start":6034.171,"end":6041.758,"text":"等等來做這些搜救等等其實對於國家資源的耗費也都是非常耗費那我整理了從109年到113年也是從20212020到2024年每一個風災其實多少都有耗費掉一些這些災害的"},{"start":6052.728,"end":6064.554,"text":"這些搜救的人次所以我們等一下在立法裡面也希望院版剛剛部長有明示說可以在今年提出來那希望院版也可以把這個部分也放進來"},{"start":6066.414,"end":6085.175,"text":"跟委員報告那麼有關於這個在颱風期間很多民眾擅自入園或者是說造成我們救援上的困難我們希望的確把它也明確入法做一個明確的罰則因為這個涉及到國家資源的浪費我們希望能夠大家能夠遵守法令好謝謝那我們請竹江上場請劉部長"},{"start":6095.586,"end":6109.822,"text":"剛剛幾位國民黨委員針對財化法之後內政部在臉書上面有說可能會影響到多少的內政部轄管的預算裡面我這樣形容"},{"start":6111.973,"end":6140.622,"text":"這個文字修正,如果是我要吵架來修正,是這樣修正我認為修正說,因國民黨委員要求在財化法裡面分掉3753億的預算影響到內政部,可能影響到內政部的這些相關的預算我們可能要做出下列調整但因國民黨委員要求因為事情還沒發生,所以我們必須要做以下修正但是我現在不是要吵架,所以我也不會建議這樣修正"},{"start":6141.182,"end":6161.408,"text":"我這樣子具體的來跟部長討論一下財化法我來講這個延續型的計畫好了就國土署的延續型計畫裡面最關民生議題的兩個議題一個是租金補貼一個是社宅興建"},{"start":6163.562,"end":6186.892,"text":"對高雄來講租金補貼高雄這次財化法號稱拿到245億但是是六讀比例最小高雄市在去年度的租金補貼一共補貼了9萬戶也就是36億那就是245億裡面的36億要不要交給高雄市政府來處理這可以跟市政府談"},{"start":6188.151,"end":6216.193,"text":"但如果說這個社宅興建要跟市政府談陳其邁市長一定不要因為你變相是處罰高雄市政府積極推動社宅你要叫高雄市政府用全額來支付這個社宅我覺得這個就是確實要來討論的我舉一個對比的例子台中市拿到262億但是他的租金補貼發了61億那這一部分要不要來大家"},{"start":6216.793,"end":6242.386,"text":"平等六都的租金補貼全部交由六都來支付新北市拿了374億租金補貼拿了50必須要付56億這合不合理要不要拿來這裡來討論我覺得這個才是在中央被地方被財化法修法影響下分到地方3000多億之後"},{"start":6243.146,"end":6254.557,"text":"那市權應不應該做一個整體的調整也就是租金補貼以及這個社宅的部分要不要跟地方來做一個協調這個是不是請部長"},{"start":6255.285,"end":6273.948,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教我想租金補貼的部分不管中央政府跟地方政府都非常努力最主要是要減少我們的租入弱勢族群的人也就是所謂的居住正義那在110年以前它的執行模式是中央負擔75%地方負擔25%但是到112年113年到目前的114年我們都是由中央全額負擔也是負擔百分之百"},{"start":6285.35,"end":6296.94,"text":"那如果未來的財政收支劃分法要在115年做改變讓地方可以下售更多的其他財源的時候我們就會建議所謂的租金補貼回歸到110年以前的75比25"},{"start":6302.285,"end":6328.68,"text":"也就是現在六都裡面不管包括台北、新北、桃園、台中、高雄他們的現在的這個財力的規範大概是二級以上可以回歸到75比25的比例這樣子降低比較好謝謝部長這麼理性其實財劃法其實就是先把錢拿走也不管事所以這是一個非常畸形的修法雖然目前到今年度現在已經1月6號"},{"start":6330.046,"end":6358.228,"text":"1月6號那去年通過的財化法目前財委會沒有送到行政院過去那所以說這部法令到底什麼時候要實施我們也不知道那實施之後如果在發布之前那我們內政部是不是可以趕快來找地方來做這一些相關的研議跟討論讓社會可以接受說地方拿走這3000多億那地方要做什麼事情這樣合理那中央還可以做什麼事情合理"},{"start":6358.268,"end":6386.79,"text":"可能很多部會都要了這個在補貼給地方政府大概除了內政部的一些相關的生活圈道路或人行道或者是租金補貼等等以外交通部恐怕也不少所以我們很希望說能夠結長補短而不是多的越多少的越少反而造成這個貧富差距我昨天碰到馬祖縣政府的縣長他說他設算了一下他覺得說新的財政收支劃分法對他們不一定是有利"},{"start":6387.29,"end":6407.571,"text":"他不是多了幾十億嗎對啊但是他有說過因為裡面有包括特別統籌分配款或者是我們中央跟地方政府的比例原則再加上現在很多退休人員他在哪個地方退休就會領那個縣市政府的退休金那這個如果大家都把價碼拉高的話他們那個馬祖縣政府其實財力的負擔會更嚴重"},{"start":6409.773,"end":6417.039,"text":"是謝謝部長一個不合理的一個立法院不合理的修法讓行政部門要來補破網我覺得我們還是更積極的去處理謝謝好請黃婕蕙好謝謝主席我們請劉部長好請部長"},{"start":6439.455,"end":6455.561,"text":"委員好部長好 其實今天大家還是在談論財化法因為財化法到現在其實都還是所有縣市那所有人民最關心會不會受到影響的一個修法那我在這邊還是要再次的來幫高雄講話其實我這幾天的質詢每一場都還是講財化法就是因為"},{"start":6460.863,"end":6485.804,"text":"這件事情對高雄實在是影響太大了因為大家知道說高雄是全國增幅最低的那其實剛剛部長也有提到說不只是高雄就連馬祖縣的縣長就是連江縣的縣長都也覺得說這個修下去對他們不一定有利關鍵在哪裡就是當這個市權如果回到地方到時候他們要自己要多支付的可能比他們拿到的補貼還多請問是這個意思嗎 部長"},{"start":6488.186,"end":6512.659,"text":"是我想大家都知道這個財化法叫做財政收支劃分法的話不是中央政府就是地方政府要收跟支那所以這次的修法裡面呢我們很希望說中央政府要跟地方政府在這個立法院可以授權的原則之下呢去好好談論一下就是未來大家要分配的財源怎麼樣處理所以我剛剛跟很多委員在回應的時候就是我們的設算是"},{"start":6513.78,"end":6529.45,"text":"未來如果按照新的財化法的時候可能在115年會產生這樣子的結果但是呢我們這個設算的基礎並沒有去找地方政府因為地方政府他們也第一個大部分的地方政府都已經通過地方議會的預算114年的地方預算已經通過了"},{"start":6532.552,"end":6556.639,"text":"那如果114年中央政府沒有通過的時候他們可能有一大筆從中央要補貼或者是要這個按照比例給他們這個地方會落空那兩頭空的結果就會耽擱到預算的執行也會耽擱到業務費人事費甚至是很多是屬於公共設施的經費那這個部分呢有待這個大院跟行政單位或是地方政府一起來討論那我們按照這樣的討論結果一起來執行因為"},{"start":6561.48,"end":6579.266,"text":"讓全國的人民可以有享有我們預算裡面能夠執行的公共設施的成果才是我們最大的願望謝謝部長的說明我覺得這件事情其實部長也點出一個重點財政收支劃分法是中央跟地方政府大家要共同來商議的可是在立法院"},{"start":6580.186,"end":6601.005,"text":"都沒有任何的討論就這樣貿然的三讀通過就造成了三讀通過大家才開始要檢討說到底是出了什麼問題這其實也是變成所有縣市政府的困擾所以我真的在這邊還是希望啦再次呼籲有機會的話大家重新坐下來談重新把過去在立法院還沒有談到的"},{"start":6602.086,"end":6623.667,"text":"本來應該就要先談才處理的重新再來檢討一次市權跟錢到底要怎麼分配那其實我還是要講一下高雄的重點因為當然很感謝部長第一時間就試算出高雄還有全台灣各縣市有可能受到的影響那在我的選區我關心的是其實內政部在高雄我的選區有幾個包括"},{"start":6626.229,"end":6642.909,"text":"清閒好事 興盛好事都是正在興建以及剛絕標要開始準備要動工的社宅那我很擔心說財化法照這樣下去照國民黨這麼惡劣的版本下去是不是會影響到我們高雄市民的權益啊"},{"start":6643.59,"end":6657.659,"text":"我們社宅興建的進度跟未來是不是有沒有有沒有可能會蓋不下去啊這個是我最擔心的可不可以請部長來跟我們回應一下照這樣的才華法下去我們選區的社宅到底會不會受到影響"},{"start":6659.529,"end":6683.914,"text":"報告委員理論上我們會希望已經動工就表示已經開始發生預算的執行那我們希望就維持不要動但是新興的就是都還沒有動工都還沒有報任何這個開工的話可能會受到影響那那個委員所主張的這兩個部分我們回去查一下如果他已經有動工興建的話我們希望按照原來的進度走"},{"start":6684.674,"end":6706.309,"text":"按照原來預算執行來走但是新興的確實會受到很大的影響這也是我們非常必須要面對的一個挑戰因為全台灣現在的這個社會住宅的興建大概是12萬戶到13萬戶那未來還會有12萬戶的部分所以我們可能也因為預算受影響之後可能會來做比較大的這個改換"},{"start":6708.55,"end":6730.76,"text":"譬如說我們以老宅都更或者其他的方式來處理有關社宅興建因為無論怎麼樣能夠照顧居住弱勢的這個年輕族群或者弱勢族群還是我們最大的願望那我們會在這個有限的預算之下呢會做最大的發揮但是要讓我們有時間來做比較精準的這個設算比較好"},{"start":6731.5,"end":6759.37,"text":"好謝謝部長的回應所以我還是在這邊幫我的選區說一下話啦除了剛剛這兩個社長還有租金補貼其實也是我的選區非常容易遇到的問題就目前為止其實高雄可以一戶拿到的可能是三千二到五千之間那可能看他的個人的狀況那我照剛剛部長的意思是說希望說這個市權分下去中央七成五地方要自己掏兩成五是這樣子嗎"},{"start":6760.91,"end":6786.662,"text":"如果 我一定要講如果 要不然大家認為是114年我覺得擔心的情況有可能會發生的情況必須要讓人民知道如果115年是按照新的財化法的話那確實內政部減少的金額就是會在這麼多的金額之下那租金補貼我們很希望說地方政府也負擔25%就是回歸到110年那時候的處理的方向但是這也是我們的"},{"start":6787.842,"end":6811.201,"text":"初步的估算那還沒有跟幾個地方縣市政府一起來討論因為討論之後呢大家要分攤責任因為分攤預算就是分攤責任這樣會比較好否則我們巧婦難為無名之炊我想您一定清楚不可能我們不希望減少租金補貼的戶數那我們就希望地方政府也能夠跟我們一起來負擔租金補貼應該給補貼年輕的這個居住弱勢的族群"},{"start":6814.483,"end":6842.713,"text":"好 謝謝部長的說明所以我在這邊還是要下一個結論就是叫國民黨這樣的才化法下去有可能最直接影響到的反而是這一群原本應該要獲得這個資源平衡的弱勢所以我最怕的是這個修下去平者越平 富者越富那需要照顧的反而沒有辦法透過這個預算的重新分配來獲得分配正義的保障這個是目前國民黨"},{"start":6843.713,"end":6865.305,"text":"修惡的才化法裡面最違背才化法精神的一件事情所以拜託希望有機會大家重新再把才化法重新來做討論那最後雖然時間到了我還是講一下因為今天在處理這個國家公園法那因為我的選區有壽山那我這個壽山一直以來都有遊蕩犬的問題"},{"start":6866.226,"end":6871.148,"text":"那我也希望說是不是署長嗎那是不是署長謝謝部長署長這個我們壽山的遊蕩犬問題拜託一定要跟我們市府合作來通力來處理好不好因為這也非常久了那過去也都一直法規其實也都在對"},{"start":6883.812,"end":6911.463,"text":"我們多年來就一直尋求市府的一個合作因為大部分的流浪犬其實還是在園區外如果園區外不處理的話流浪狗白天牠就會跑到山上去玩這個我們會努力好 這個真的要拜託啦因為這個已經造成我們周邊的居民非常長期以來的困擾那我在這邊一定要幫他們講一下那也拜託署長我們同力來合作好 謝謝"},{"start":6916.874,"end":6918.408,"text":"好 請吳志明委員"},{"start":6928.271,"end":6957.82,"text":"好 召委一位同仁來 部長 部長很主動我們一位同仁 大家好部長針對早安大家都在關心這方面的財化法有今天在我們新北市早安我看巧會也是在關心我在上個會期我們所推動的人行道四年四百億那你財化法現在已經三讀通過那本市還是關心"},{"start":6958.38,"end":6985.302,"text":"整個人行道因為在我的選區在我們新北市很多我們中小學的人行安全我們都從中央預注非常多到地方那未來才化法實施會不會對整個我們的人行安全的過程這個經費上的不足還有我們新北市有很多污水下水道"},{"start":6985.982,"end":7002.235,"text":"污水下水道的工程會用也是很多都來自我們中央那未來會不會是排擠這一些其實才會以實施下去本市也是非常憂心因為我們在內政尤其在我們的"},{"start":7003.996,"end":7024.742,"text":"我們國土署預祝了很多地方的經費會不會受到排擠請部長來說明謝謝吳委員的關心委員我們希望有這樣的方向第一個就是說如果已經有是延續性的預算的話希望不要動 延續也是延續性的不要去卡但是一定會受到影響就是新興計劃"},{"start":7026.042,"end":7030.104,"text":"不管它是115年或是114年的新興計劃現在就是沒有定案那我們就不敢講它的比例分配是怎麼樣那如果要如原來的品質或是如原來的進度的話我們就必須要跟地方政府來談地方政府可不可以按照我們這個行政院主計處所說的級距啊譬如說這個新北市 原來是第二季第二季的這個財力分擔他們按照財力分擔自籌款的比例一起分擔出來"},{"start":7054.995,"end":7077.371,"text":"那這樣的話呢未來的這個公共建設的品質就比較不會受到影響那像我們現在在推動的社會住宅還有租金補貼在我們都會區裡面這是一個佔了非常大的比例是的那未來呢你租金補貼你現在都是中央來支出嘛對那未來你要怎樣跟地方來做協調"},{"start":7078.952,"end":7107.226,"text":"那會不會也造成我們已經在實施的你說實施的已經不會受到影響那未來你要再租金補貼這一些人會不會受到排擠還有我們社會住宅我們現在整個台灣都在動那你新北市這邊那未來你要怎樣來做分配好 兩個回應啦感謝吳委員 委員在我們新北市這邊有核定的租金補貼的戶數非常的多是10萬4千多"},{"start":7109.228,"end":7113.533,"text":"所以呢有用到的這個租金補貼的這個費用呢是高達53億9千萬那這個是百分之百從112年113年百分之百是中央來負擔"},{"start":7123.684,"end":7140.114,"text":"但是一百一十年的時候那時候我們的財力還沒那麼好的那時候是七十五比二十五就是中央百分之七十五那地方百分之二十五但是那時候戶數沒那麼多五億元在北方都了解那如果我們一百一十五年的財化法"},{"start":7141.535,"end":7144.757,"text":"會把這些所謂的這個中央所需要負擔的額度把它刪減掉回到地方的時候我們就希望租金補貼是回到110年的75比25讓中央負擔75%那地方負擔25%但是這是我們的說法那我們還沒有跟地方政府來做比較好的溝通"},{"start":7165.071,"end":7186.719,"text":"因為地方政府幾乎所有的預算都在地方議會通過了那所以會影響到可能是下夏年度或是夏年度這個跟委員報告那再來呢有關社會住宅的興建社會住宅興建如果它是屬於延續性意思就是說它已經檔工過了已經開工了現在開始在拍電影什麼的那我們是按照原來的不動但是新興的"},{"start":7187.739,"end":7193.084,"text":"要不斷崗、要不抱怨、要不撥起來的部分,我們可能就要按照新的採劃法,也是一樣,中央負擔多少、地方負擔多少,按照各縣市五個不同的級距,再跟縣市政府來談"},{"start":7202.332,"end":7226.551,"text":"但是部長你現在已經三讀通過了那你在這段時間是一個空窗期是不是趕快跨部會因為不只我們內政部受影響你連交通部以國防部任何部會都會受到影響是不是跨部會趕快來做統籌趕快來研究趕快怎樣來防範未來有排擠到的要怎樣來來做補強的動作"},{"start":7228.753,"end":7246.564,"text":"我想那個行政院的主計總處應該是會邀集各個部會或者是說行政會邀集各個部會來做討論我們會按照大院的指示來辦理好的來 還是要趕快啦 好不好好 謝謝部長辛苦了謝謝吳委員 謝謝好 謝謝吳委員"},{"start":7266.467,"end":7271.568,"text":"好 現在下一位我們請我們張宏祿召委執行 謝謝部長 你先休息啦那個 次長委員好其實啊 國家公園有很多的人來台灣觀光旅遊其實都會選擇國家公園"},{"start":7295.925,"end":7324.323,"text":"那我個人覺得啊國家公園我從之前我就有說有一些可以改進之處我先說一個很簡單的陽明山國家公園應該是去的人最多的地方吧目前來講陽明山國家公園人數因為他是都會型的比較容易到除了都會型之外啦交通便捷什麼的但"},{"start":7325.97,"end":7336.302,"text":"陽明山國家公園的路口 兩排 攤販難道這麼多年了無法解決嗎你可以請他們回答"},{"start":7345.13,"end":7369.977,"text":"報告委員在那個就是委員所提到的部分是陽明公園的一個範圍那這個部分我們跟台北市政府在很多年前就一直在協商有關移交的問題但是因為這個部分它涉及到有一些土地已經徵收沒有處理的這個部分我們跟台北市政府在就"},{"start":7371.677,"end":7397.424,"text":"徵收詳細的一些內容去做一個釐清在後續的移交接管的部分的過程當中哪些部分需要再做一個補辦徵收的這樣的一個處理後續會陸陸續續來進行我問這個問題不是今天才問我們不是要讓攤販沒有生意做你應該把它整理得漂漂亮亮的"},{"start":7398.564,"end":7420.868,"text":"不管你是用OT或是用什麼的方式把它整理得漂漂亮亮再把攤位你租回給現在的人也是可以解決我們不是讓他們有生意只是你看這一個是全台華灣的國家公園央行民生意都最多這是一個門面講那些理由說真的齁我都聽不下去啦"},{"start":7421.772,"end":7432.826,"text":"我也不是沒有在行政機關待過啦你要成功只有一個方法啦要找藉口有一百個藉口啦對不對這一個我認為是一個非常"},{"start":7434.229,"end":7462.551,"text":"非常簡單可以去處理的問題只要你用心我不知道次長你怎麼想好 跟委員報告我們目前會啟動羊皮山國家公園的通盤檢討然後會跟市政府一起來討論怎麼樣解決它的土地的問題土地權屬的問題還有相關管理的問題我們希望透過通盤檢討一次性的把這個問題我們看可以怎麼樣來解決包括相關的管理權限還有包括空間的劃設等等那我們今年就去啟動相關的檢討我們今年就會去處理"},{"start":7463.243,"end":7464.433,"text":"那要多久時間可以處理"},{"start":7466.991,"end":7492.563,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個範圍是在我們的那個就是管一的範圍內那我們涉及的相關的一些就建物的部分我們在今年規劃啟動我們的管一檢討的作業問你多久可以處理我們預計兩個一一四到一一五年會啟動這個這個裡面的一個檢討作業作為我們通盤檢討的前置的規劃你沒有回答我的問題"},{"start":7494.124,"end":7509.205,"text":"114到115啊我們在一年內會完成這樣子的檢討把它處理起來不是 你是完成檢討而已啊對啊 我們這個檢討就是我們會把所有行政作業的完成我現在問的是多久可以解決這個問題啊你跟我講行政程序"},{"start":7510.146,"end":7531.62,"text":"報告委員我來回答一下有關於陽明公園前面的亂象的部分確實全屬有中央跟地方那我們在短期之內我們就先跟台北市政府來聯繫一下如何處理攤販的這個問題我們不是說要把攤販都趕走而是怎麼樣讓他有秩序我知道我知道讓他有秩序"},{"start":7532,"end":7549.855,"text":"不要影響到門面不要人家會覺得要到陽明山國家公園到陽明公園這麼亂我們來檢討一下那剛剛他們所說就是說整體的一起來規劃的時候給我們一點時間我們盡量不要再那麼長的時間要一年我盡量在短一點的時間內完成但是讓我們再估算一下再跟委員來回報"},{"start":7551.195,"end":7571.489,"text":"好 部長您請坐我必須要跟你們溝通一個觀念不是什麼事情我要怎樣怎樣我當然知道你要做到100分是OK的但明明就在那邊了多久了我也不是今天才說為什麼要特別說這個"},{"start":7574.467,"end":7591.634,"text":"門面中的門面已經那麼久了那你可以取得雙贏的東西每次就是說行政程序跟台北市政府跟什麼不去做永遠有藉口但如果真的想做就做好了我講句比較難聽一點的"},{"start":7593.499,"end":7618.181,"text":"我今天我如果是行政院長我來跟你們說這個東西門面中的門面怎麼可以這樣我限你們多久給我處理好我看你們半夜都加班馬上就處理了吧跟委員報告我們這個月內我們就跟台北市政府來開會討論看怎麼處理那請速把那個相關的科技的規範跟運作的方式我們今天這個月內討論好那看能不能兩個月內我們就把它處理完"},{"start":7618.801,"end":7647.09,"text":"好謝謝次長我覺得事情就是要這樣做啦但還有一個我們不是讓攤分沒有生意是我們應該要把它規劃你看國外人家國外的國家公園你看日本的就好了人家也是在賣東西但是就感覺不是破破爛爛的我覺得這個是真的是盲面啦這個另外最後其實國家公園我們有蓋有很多的步道啦當然是都在國家公園裡面嘛但"},{"start":7648.11,"end":7674.358,"text":"有沒有一個思考跟地方政府配合一下在國家公園的步道可以延伸的部分大家可以延伸串聯我覺得這個都可以去思考啦好不好好 我們相關的步道連結我們會跟那個地方政府一起討論也會跟整個交通部的傳導步道一起來做連結好 謝謝好 謝謝我們張煌路召委的資訊那下一位換我們行星雲召委"},{"start":7676.389,"end":7678.572,"text":"謝謝主席 本席請劉部長好 請部長"},{"start":7701.892,"end":7715.648,"text":"本來本席沒有要談這一點 但看到今天前面蠻多委員在提的就是有關財政收支劃分法三讀通過之後 內政部也有發布新聞"},{"start":7718.692,"end":7743.979,"text":"但是我們上週行政院秘書長明確的跟我們說行政院跟各部會都還沒有共識行政院也還沒有下達說好 哪一個部會或是大家都等比例的會影響28%但是我們行政院就這樣發布新聞本席覺得太過粗糙所以在今天質詢之前我也要特別來表達就算有影響"},{"start":7748.32,"end":7772.563,"text":"我相信也不會是各部會平均分配反而本席要請部長我們應該要積極的向行政院來爭取爭取我們內政部我們該有的這個費用那內政部更不可以以補助民眾的項目來作為對民眾情緒勒索的素材"},{"start":7774.645,"end":7789.118,"text":"更重要的是本席也希望我們各部會應該要想辦法遵截行政費用還有一些過度腐爛的宣傳費出國考察費用一些管理成本要應該來盤點"},{"start":7791.88,"end":7809.662,"text":"他的這個優先項目所以本席在前面質詢的時候我特別先提出來那還是要回歸這個今天我們開會的主題就是國家公園法的部分條文修正那本席要特別針對"},{"start":7811.224,"end":7836.707,"text":"这次修法有针对各种破坏山林的行为加以罚则但是会破坏山林的不是只有不孝的游客或宵小其实政府不当的施政也会造成环境的破坏还有生态的冲击近邻碳排是国际的趋势"},{"start":7837.768,"end":7860.436,"text":"本席看到內政部推動國家公園碳管理計畫配合淨零碳排的政策施行規劃在我們的遊客中心或者是國家公園管理處或是相關的一些廳舍或宿舍的屋頂停車場架設太陽能光電板"},{"start":7863.778,"end":7879.972,"text":"这个部分我们还蛮有意见的因为我国的国家公园形态差异很大譬如说像高海拔的阳明山玉山雪坝国家公园或者是被海洋环绕的"},{"start":7881.571,"end":7898.658,"text":"東沙環礁國家公園澎湖南方四島國家公園或者具有歷史文化資產的金門國家公園這麼巨大的環境差異難道都可以一概而論裝太陽能板嗎部長我們這個要裝太陽能板這個政策這個是確定嗎"},{"start":7907.216,"end":7928.297,"text":"報告委員我們現在在國家公園寄存的建築上面裝設太陽能板是一個目前為止要解決如果萬一電力中斷的時候國家公園包括山屋他們會有自己的電力這是一個所以他是以自用為原則"},{"start":7929.238,"end":7958.46,"text":"那既然是自用為原則的話我們也是考慮全世界其他的國家公園是否有這樣的案例確實也有也就是說如果萬一發生地震或是發生大的風災的時候電線桿倒塌那山屋上面或是我們在非常高山的這種管理機構裡面沒有電的來源的話它是否最佳的來源就是太陽能那既然最佳來源是太陽能的話我們希望能夠在原來既有的建築上面裝設太陽能板就是只有這樣而已"},{"start":7958.76,"end":7986.432,"text":"有評估過一定要用太陽能板嗎因為太陽能板啊因為國家公園它就是要保護我們的生態跟環境景觀各方面但是是既有建築對啊你加了太陽能板上去就在臥底上而已不會破壞生態那如果環境影響評估沒過那我們就不會做所以case by case每個國家公園當然那你們現在評估完了嗎"},{"start":7988.084,"end":8002.02,"text":"還在評估中嗎我們持續的評估中因為每一個地方它的光線照度跟像陽明山它可能就不適合因為它的那個常常會被雲遮陽光不強"},{"start":8006.325,"end":8024.241,"text":"對然後那個我們還有會涉及到景觀的問題還有一個如果他會對景觀還有生態對他如果會有影響我們就不會設那這樣其實我看其實能夠的也不多我們國家公園就是要"},{"start":8025.141,"end":8047.593,"text":"畫色來保護的是不是我看就不要因為我接著要講太陽能板還有第二個問題一個是生態一個是生態已經有民眾反映那個太陽能板的反光會影響一些動物特殊的包括已經確定的是黑面皮露那個就在濕地那可能還有一些"},{"start":8048.88,"end":8070.958,"text":"我們沒有我們還未知的還不知道的它會影響一些小動物或者是他們的生存你破壞了他的生態那太陽能板的這個反光是一個問題接著更重要的太陽能板的火災問題啊那個國家公園在這個山區救災很不易不是嗎"},{"start":8073.228,"end":8097.705,"text":"是吧跟委員報告我們在整個國家公園如果要裝設太陽能光板就山屋要裝設太陽能板也是要經過評估另外我們的再生能源在國家公園內部的再生能源我們包括小水利等等我們都會去嘗試去處理而不是只有太陽能光我們的重點是要讓整個國家公園不是只有太陽能板我現在是針對太陽能板的部分那個再生能源"},{"start":8099.919,"end":8122.767,"text":"你小水利我沒意見我現在針對的是太陽能板我很有意見因為它如果一旦發生火災發生火災機率非常大我們本來就會評估適合不適合才再去處理目前有沒有評估中有沒有已經確定要裝太陽能板哪一家哪一個國家公園我們還在評估當中評估完可不可以把報告給我們我們把相關報告提交給大院"},{"start":8126.929,"end":8146.343,"text":"很快本席還要再問一下有關濕地的部分我們的濕地保育這個部分可不可以請部長可以跨部會的來溝通很快的本席請教我們新竹縣有兩處重要的國家級濕地處長知道是哪裡嗎對新豐跟香山濕地香山在新竹市不是新竹縣蓮花寺濕地您知道嗎"},{"start":8157.089,"end":8175.256,"text":"這一個不是我們的重要失地,它不在我們重要失地的範圍那是不是國防部一直判你?對那新豐市,所以像新豐的失地,新豐也是我的家鄉,我在那邊出生的"},{"start":8175.876,"end":8193.284,"text":"那現在部長這個新豐失地的話是造成了在地那個很多漁業漁民的漁業權的問題這個部分是不是可以請部長部長要跨部會整合一下你影響了他們長期在那裡漁民怎麼樣"},{"start":8200.161,"end":8219.517,"text":"失地的畫社影響了漁民他終生在那裡漁業很久了那你現在去畫社造成很大的反彈這個部分要圓滿一點跟那個委員說明一下就是去年年底的時候新豐失地的保育利用計劃我們已經去年年底是指剛過掉的113年那是上個月那個因為我們有跟漁會就是漁業署"},{"start":8228.664,"end":8233.988,"text":"然後我們也跟地方政府我們有經過了溝通然後那個新豐濕地的保育利用計畫我們已經通過了由那個濕地審查小組我們所有的機制都會由審查小組去做審核跟確認有沒有納入生態教育還有整個觀光發展的規劃有沒有對"},{"start":8256.125,"end":8280.434,"text":"那我們的分區也是經過在地的一個同意認同那我們才去做比如說環境教育比如說生態教育將來他們也可以做那個生態小旅遊那本席還是希望對這個東西總是需要協同環境部經濟部一起努力那也要拜託我們內政部這邊積極的來做好謝謝"},{"start":8287.688,"end":8288.889,"text":"好我們請張記該委員請部長跟署長委員好保定運用高站"},{"start":8315.37,"end":8334.648,"text":"很多委員都在問財政收支發文法醫療你們臉書上面PO的那個文他們說是恐嚇還是情熱其實我覺得同情還是什麼就是有沒有苦民所苦啦不一定其實你說你們說要減少民生政策的錢280幾億其實"},{"start":8338.749,"end":8363.272,"text":"你如果真的要砍人民的這個錢影響到民生那回過頭應該先檢討自己啊要不要先從部長的這個特別費開始特別費補定有嘛 輸定也有今天所有在的處長都有編啊我看你 我看預算輸定 每年有47萬的特別費啊你們每個處長都有啊我們是盡量不要砍可是你如果真的已經動到像你們說的要砍到民生的"},{"start":8365.03,"end":8393.622,"text":"報告委員您誤解我們的意思我們現在所講的財政收支劃分法是中央跟地方的財政怎麼收怎麼支怎麼劃分所以現在從中央減少的部分未來一定是會到地方政府所以我們還沒有跟地方政府了解跟完成所有的這個預算分配之前中央政府可能要設算下下一年度我們可能會損失的財源不是為了情樂全國人民"},{"start":8394.242,"end":8414.541,"text":"因為我們現在所要的公共建設都是要以全國人民的最大利益來考量而不是說錢不見了然後這個人民的收益就減少我想我們不是這個意思其實委員不要誤解是哪些可以節省下來嘛不是節省你怎麼節省到民生影響到民生的政策呢不是節省變成地方政府要負擔的是多少"},{"start":8418.704,"end":8422.049,"text":"對啦 我知道啦 我知道你的事實你應該先從你自己可以省的對不對 可以走的地方嘛現在是兩個問題 不一定只有兩個問題預算科目不一樣 我們不能等同而已現在只有兩個大問題要解決第一個 你沒有跟上進度嘛"},{"start":8435.279,"end":8458.817,"text":"現在行政院的秘書長 交財政部長 租界長的立法院都輕輕鬆鬆講沒有在明年馬上要實施嘛所以你太急了 你就PO了那個東西這是第一個點 你趕快跟上進度因為我們在12月30號的進度跟上個禮拜行政院秘書長講的部分大概有一個禮拜之差所以我剛剛有跟很多委員講說我們內政部裡面的官網裡面的文字的落差我們回去會去做檢討"},{"start":8460.559,"end":8469.574,"text":"所以第一首先檢討啦,跟上進度這是一個,第二我剛才在提醒就是說你在任何減少預算的時候,你要檢討是什麼?有沒有腐爛的嘛?浪費的預算很多啊,各個部位都有啊"},{"start":8474.005,"end":8499.313,"text":"你像水電會就是太多今年中央政府總預算今年開80億水電會81億明年要增加到101億啊這當然就是用的太多啊人們也不同意啊這個去減人們就鼓掌嘛那有些不當包括內政部大家出國的預算那麼多部長我跟你講這個在整個那個草野協商的時候這個一定是統山一定會刪掉的啦所以你不要擔心錢不過因為還樂烈錢沒夠什麼270幾億沒夠我跟你講"},{"start":8504.234,"end":8525.905,"text":"你這會理會議員啊報告委員您剛所提的這個不當的、糊爛的甚至有弊案的砍一砍要砍出一個三千億太容易了你不用四川那個民生了真的你要去砍民生回來砍自己從自己的特別會開始我們當然會檢討但是我也要跟委員報告水電費在公家機關來講那叫私底下給啦你有多少水埠的電端多少電埠的電端你不是一直在說省電解水嗎"},{"start":8528.946,"end":8542.936,"text":"不是 這是媒體的問題 我只是跟委員報告一下說在有公務員他們一定是依法行政 依照規定繳交水電費不會多交 也不能少交要省啦 要省啦 柏定我來問你國土計劃法的事來來來 柏定國土計劃法現在要三讀修正了齁那怎麼樣 你不會提復議案啦 不會送到道法官去解釋吧 對不對目前我沒有"},{"start":8556.052,"end":8564.922,"text":"不會 就是接受立法院的這個三讀修正的條例是 因為在立法院他完成三讀的程序當中我看之前你態度很強硬啊沒有 報告委員我們擔任公務人員就是依法行政法律授權給我們多少我們就做多少"},{"start":8572.21,"end":8597.049,"text":"那現在國土計畫法已經在大院審查通過三讀通過的話我們按照三讀通過的原則跟裡面的部分來處理但是有一點就是說有關執法的部分我們雖然已經公告了16項但是因為已經有修正所以這16項要重新公告也就是說23項執法的部分要給我們一點時間要重新公告博定你發現這本國土計畫法修正裡面你有一部是沒有"},{"start":8598.493,"end":8619.853,"text":"第一個你也沒有事先好好準備好第二個你也沒有好好溝通你給他縣市政府跟民眾也不好好溝通然後到後來也沒有充分去消除大家餘力更嚴重的你也沒有因地制宜啊所以有四個沒有啊啊不人家也在問一個問題啊你本來信誓旦旦馬上如期要做對不對現在沒有如期上路你有沒有要負政治責任"},{"start":8622.378,"end":8639.669,"text":"我跟委員報告一下現在新的進度啦22個縣市裡面呢就是桃園市政府跟南投縣政府還沒有送上國土計畫的功能分區圖但是我跟張善政市長還有跟他們在地的委員溝通過之後他們告訴我在春節前"},{"start":8640.689,"end":8652.884,"text":"會把這個桃園市的這個國土功能分區圖送上來那南投縣長這個許縣長的部分呢我們也持續在溝通當中他所牽涉到的部分比較跟國土計劃法現行的這個處理條文比較不相干那我們幫忙他解決"},{"start":8657.89,"end":8680.5,"text":"那也就是說在兩三個月之後我們希望22個縣市政府的國土功能分區圖都送上來那當我們根據新的國土計畫法的執法通過之後那我們再來一併公告執行也就是說我們按照這個大院新通過的國土計畫法的相關規範包括幾個條文修正的部分呢我們都會做一個檢討來處理"},{"start":8682.881,"end":8702.465,"text":"不是只有縣市長跟你有不同的這個意見很多民間團體或者農民有意見連民進黨的立法院跟你意見都是不一樣的如果是你現在過來你以前當過立委對不對你以前的立委劉世芳如果碰到一個這樣內政部長連跟自己的執政黨立委都溝通不良你會不會要他負起政治責任"},{"start":8705.252,"end":8721.804,"text":"你會發現你連民進黨立委連國土計畫法連溝通都不好因為我現在是當一個行政官員所以我並不願意回答如果的問題但是我跟委員報告我們在這過程的討論當中國土計畫法牽涉最多是農業還有農會"},{"start":8725.467,"end":8739.139,"text":"那這個部分呢農業部幫忙我們非常多所以這一次呢有若干委員所提出跟所謂的農業權或是農地發展權相關的部分在最後一刻的時候呢就沒有把它放到我們國土計畫法裡面"},{"start":8740.64,"end":8752.196,"text":"因為我們認為國土計劃法應該是市農工商各種包括都市計劃都可以放進去那我們也很謝謝包括很多委員都支持我們提出一個鄉村整體規劃法這個部分對於偏鄉地區的都市計劃來講是一個正向的發展"},{"start":8757.964,"end":8781.43,"text":"所以一來一往當中呢其實也是可以局限出來說在2015年通過的國土計畫法經過10年之後它確實有需要檢討跟改善的空間那所以站在我們立場我們就根據新的國土計畫法三讀通過之後做執法的修正然後再繼續跟地方政府來溝通其實全民在看你的就是你有沒有去傾聽民意啦"},{"start":8782.54,"end":8802.698,"text":"要不要做好溝通啊 要不然就是不我自己說的不是自己管理政府的意見 農民有意見連你的民進黨立委都有意見我們有多做溝通現在是兩個問題第一個你要不要負政治責任 這是一個第二個請問一下你現在爭取到展年六年對不對你這六年你就好好去傾聽把事情規劃好你剛才所謂的一步是沒有"},{"start":8803.579,"end":8819.05,"text":"你這四個沒有 你在未來這個六年謝謝委員的指正 我們會來檢討因為剩下一點點時間 我直接就不用回答太魯閣的那個有一個峽谷的馬拉松今年就停辦了嘛我請那個"},{"start":8821.032,"end":8843.922,"text":"不可能辦嘛那他們希望明年辦這個太魯閣這邊要怎麼去幫忙一定要注意到安全當然這是一個國際的盛事啦很多人都希望可以參加可是一定要注意安全好不好另外第一件 陽明山有那個象天蝦那個有沒有那個湖啊每次下雨就很多人去那邊我的好朋友啊包括謝金河之前都說他進去那個湖過嘛"},{"start":8844.929,"end":8871.988,"text":"那個要怎麼避免再進去,我看你們說要開罰嘛醫療那個地方的安全,避免大家去破壞這個生態,這個一定要做到另外一個,大家很注意,大家可以前天剛剛有看到那個野生的水牛對不對你們之前有提說要那個野生水牛每次下雨就衝下來,把那個農田都踩壞了對不對,甚至有民眾發生危險啊你們之前有提說要去做什麼庇護的措施,到現在沒做耶這要怎麼"},{"start":8875.054,"end":8890.557,"text":"好啦剛剛我也已經說你們書面在回答他啦好不好不好意思因為我們我已經給你很多時間了因為現在很多民眾大家喜歡去看那些野生的水牛可是一碰到下雨那個真的老實講真的是危險的你是要給他個屁股手嘛好不好給我個書面來 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在黃健斌 黃健斌 黃健斌委員不在請黃國昌委員"},{"start":8911.288,"end":8913.148,"text":"上禮拜我們處理了國土計畫法國土計畫法你一開始的宣示是要如期上路很遺憾上禮拜五"},{"start":8935.387,"end":8964.139,"text":"本院多數的委員包括執政的民主進步黨的委員直接打槍六年以後才要上路剛剛前一個質詢的委員張其凱委員已經代表了台灣民眾黨黨團清楚的表達了對於內政部部長劉世芳在國土計畫法你所提出來的政策立場清楚的"},{"start":8965.93,"end":8992.641,"text":"被本院最大的兩個政黨民主進步黨加上中國國民黨聯手打槍你有沒有要負政治責任這不是文官依法行政的問題這是一個政務官的政策立場你希望明年應該是今年四月如期上路本院直接打槍"},{"start":8994.93,"end":9018.546,"text":"對於你所要推展的政務啊立法院包括執政黨在內的立委都不支持有沒有要負政治責任謝謝委員的指教所以呢 有還是沒有我不曉得您所提的部分是哪一個部分的政治責任所負的政治責任很清楚啊你作為內政部部長"},{"start":9020.117,"end":9041.945,"text":"本來要求國土計劃法今年四月如期上路嘛現在四月還沒有到啊所以你今年四月要你今年四月可以如期上路不清楚不清楚上個禮拜五立法院所過的國土計劃法行政院有要提覆議嗎沒有沒有要提覆議那你如何如期上路因為在修法的裡面他有提到是十年內"},{"start":9043.877,"end":9064.415,"text":"所以你今年四月會讓阿魯齊上路嗎是嗎報告委員我剛有跟張委員提到目前就是兩個縣市政府還沒有把國土功能分區圖送上來那桃園市政府是春節那那個南投縣政府我們正在努力所以你的計畫是要春節如果啦"},{"start":9065.799,"end":9094.85,"text":"這兩個現在是政府送上來了你現在的政策立場還是一樣今年4月上路是嗎報告委員法律上授予給我們的是有延緩6年但是內那到底是6年內1年內5年內其實都很難說那我剛有特別提到我們現在碰到的部分就是說需要把預告的這個16個執法抽回來變成一共要預告23個執法因為現在的新的國土計劃法已經修正"},{"start":9095.35,"end":9118.782,"text":"包括原住民要加入行業這些剛剛說過的東西沒有必要複述啦請你針對問題回答今年四月你有沒有要讓他上路我們會努力但是能不能達成目標不敢現在就跟委員報告沒有關係啦 上個禮拜五包括執政黨的立委在議會裡面是怎麼發言的是怎麼發言的今年四月我就等著看"},{"start":9119.983,"end":9148.1,"text":"看你之前所宣示的政策立場會不會如期實現如果不會的話你作為政務官的風骨跟政務官的原則我今天不急啊我就等你到今年四月啊看今年四月啊結果是如何第二個問題啊第二個問題啊上個禮拜台北地方法院開庭跟全國的人民公告"},{"start":9149.572,"end":9168.772,"text":"會開放旁聽結果有一群人要進去法院旁聽被擋在被擋在法院的鋸馬外請問這誰下令的台北市政府下令的還是警政署下令的人民到法院旁聽的權利要進去法院旁聽"},{"start":9170.57,"end":9195.389,"text":"進不去讓大家覺得台北地方法院發那個公告是在騙人民嗎是在台北地院搞戒嚴嗎要進去旁聽進不去那個時候他們告訴我說有人要進去台北地方法院旁聽進不去我要發生什麼事他們那些要進去旁聽的民眾被警方擋在序碼外這些事情部長知道嗎"},{"start":9196.973,"end":9213.254,"text":"我知道警方有要做這個秩序的維護但是...秩序的維護是把要旁聽的民眾擋在鋸馬外嗎這我並不清楚這裡並不清楚好 部長可不可以回去請教警政署是警政署下令的"},{"start":9214.628,"end":9236.445,"text":"還是台北市政府下令的我來查一下好嗎權責要搞清楚三天之內回覆可以嗎你只是回去問一下警政署誰下令的嗎報告委員您現在所說是12月26的話那就很快可以告訴您是誰下令的不是我是說我回去問一下所以我說你三天之內回覆我可以嗎是好謝謝"},{"start":9238.829,"end":9265.156,"text":"之前啊包括賴清德總統所提的司法院院長哦 被提名人啊我在質詢他的時候啊 詢答的過程當中他就直接講了啊說我們兩公約多次的國際審查報告都提到啊 極有法要檢討 要修正啊張文芬講的沒有錯啊然後帶"},{"start":9266.983,"end":9290.259,"text":"帶您看一下整個歷程我們的政府花大錢請了國際審查專家來審查我們的國家報告每一次請國際審查專家來的時候他們針對我們的集會遊行二法所表達的見解跟困惑是什麼啊表達嚴肅關切啊GU法為什麼還沒有過"},{"start":9295.196,"end":9302.939,"text":"第一次的時候是2017年我們蔡英文前總統宴請國際審查委員吃得很好照片都有出來大家嘻嘻哈哈的不是為了吃飯是為了要審查我們的國家報告最後的結果是什麼來看一下2017年"},{"start":9321.343,"end":9347.104,"text":"到目前為止 極有法沒有如專家在結論性意見與建議第75點的要求進行修法這是2017年的報告喔再看2021年的報告2021年的報告國際審查專家就看不下去了直接問啦到底是出於什麼樣的理由還沒有修訂到底是出於什麼樣的理由還沒有修訂到2022年2028號的時候語氣更強烈啦"},{"start":9350.882,"end":9374.414,"text":"立法院還沒有通過的原因到底是什麼在這個部分請政府說明考量到現行法律違反了公正公約第21條為何需要6年多的時間來釐清來請教部長可不可以跟全民講一下連國際審查專家都看不下去說台灣到底在幹嘛找我們來審報告"},{"start":9377.514,"end":9403.803,"text":"2017年就跟你講啦 極有法要修啊修到現在搞了幾年啊 就還是沒有修來 可不可以請部長示意一下報告委員 我想您所提出的這個部分我們非常的清楚現在極有法呢仍然是在內部的審查當中還沒送到行政院對啊所以還沒有通過修正的理由是什麼是行政院延宕嗎"},{"start":9405.396,"end":9430.751,"text":"是內政部拖延嗎是行政院擺爛嗎還是內政部擺爛現在我在幫啊國際審查專家所問的問題啊台灣公民我們大家都很關心啊我們的政府說我們要人權立國我們的政府說我們台灣簽了ICCPR跟世界人權潮流接軌國際審查專家說"},{"start":9435.422,"end":9462.895,"text":"請政府說明考量現行的法律違反了公正公約21條為何需要6年多的時間來釐清啊國際審查專家請政府說明啊我們大家看了用我們納稅人的錢請來的國際審查專家提出來的問題我們大家都很關切啊但等不到政府一個答案啊您今天給的答案是說我們還持續在研議中是這樣嗎"},{"start":9464.761,"end":9481.629,"text":"是這樣嗎是的你還要研議多久我沒有辦法給委員做一個比較明確的方向所以繼續拖嘛繼續混嘛下一次的時候要再找國際審查專家來的時候可能人家要再問一次啦要再問一次啦這樣子浪費納稅人的錢找國際審查專家來幹嘛來做秀嗎來做秀嗎"},{"start":9495.114,"end":9503.7,"text":"國際審查專家問的問題你們也不回答事情也不解決就繼續放著就繼續放著這個就是我們現在內政部的態度喔就是我們現在內政部的態度喔繼續研議嘛 還要研議多久你也不知道研議到2028年總統改選會不會研議出來你也不知道"},{"start":9522.096,"end":9524.645,"text":"你也不知道嘛是吧2028年會願意出來嗎請教部長"},{"start":9530.017,"end":9553.033,"text":"2028年會研議出來嗎 請教部長你還是沒有辦法回應嘛所以你當什麼部長嘛你當什麼部長嘛連一個簡單的極優法什麼時候弄出來都無法回應表示我們內部有很多不同的聲音很多不同的聲音 奇怪咧奇怪 當初蔡英文提出這個政治承諾的時候我從來沒聽到啊民進黨說什麼內部有很多不同的聲音咧"},{"start":9557.64,"end":9563.727,"text":"欸 奇怪了 換到賴清德的時候 內部有很多不同的聲音喔兩套標準 是不是謝謝委員的指教來 葉延之 葉延之 葉延之也很不讚"},{"start":9577.085,"end":9601.103,"text":"所以登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘經與發言完畢詢答結束委員丁學中高進樹美黃建斌所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位一周內以書面答覆並複製本會好我們本次會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":9604.552,"end":9606.955,"text":"因為那個三分鐘的保険還小賬,一年來,一年來到現在"}]}},{"id":"158695","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158695","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/de7793bdba635484bb995c9d2fefed077d5a9e1565835ab693850abadfa9c29fdab12b64c84673915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:59:20 - 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有還是沒有我不曉得您所提的部分是哪一個部分的政治責任所負的政治責任很清楚啊你作為內政部部長"},{"start":117.25,"end":139.075,"text":"本來要求國土計劃法今年四月如期上路嘛現在四月還沒有到啊所以你今年四月要你今年四月可以如期上路不清楚不清楚上個禮拜五立法院所過的國土計劃法行政院有要提覆議嗎沒有沒有要提覆議那你如何如期上路因為在修法的裡面他有提到是十年內"},{"start":141.007,"end":161.548,"text":"所以你今年四月所以你今年四月會讓阿魯齊上路嗎是嗎報告委員我剛有跟張委員提到目前就是兩個縣市政府還沒有把國土功能分區圖送上來那桃園市政府是春節那那個南投縣政府我們正在努力所以你的計畫是要春節如果啦"},{"start":164.251,"end":183.725,"text":"這兩個縣市政府送上來了你現在的政策立場還是一樣今年四月上路是嗎報告委員法律上授予給我們的是有延緩六年但是內那到底是六年內一年內五年內其實都很難說那我剛有特別提到我們現在碰到的部分就是說需要把"},{"start":184.245,"end":206.463,"text":"預告的這個16個執法抽回來變成一共要預告23個執法因為現在的新的國土計畫法已經修正包括原住民要加入航運這些剛剛說過的東西沒有必要複述啦請你針對問題回答今年4月你有沒有要讓他上路我們會努力但是能不能達成目標不敢現在就跟委員報告沒有關係啦上個禮拜五"},{"start":207.423,"end":228.233,"text":"包括執政黨的立委在院會裡面是怎麼發言的今年四月我就等著看看你之前所宣示的政策立場會不會如期實現如果不會的話你作為政務官的風骨跟政務官的原則"},{"start":229.707,"end":254.474,"text":"我今天不急啊我就等你到今年四月啊看今年四月啊結果是如何第二個問題啊第二個問題啊上個禮拜台北地方法院開庭跟全國的人民公告會開放旁聽啊結果有一群人要進去法院旁聽啊被擋在被擋在法院的鋸馬外"},{"start":256.438,"end":266.043,"text":"請問這是誰下令的台北市政府下令的還是警政署下令的人民到法院旁聽的權利啊要進去法院旁聽啊"},{"start":267.703,"end":292.534,"text":"進不去讓大家覺得台北地方法院發那個公告是在騙人民嗎是在台北地院搞戒嚴嗎要進去旁聽進不去那個時候他們告訴我說有人要進去台北地方法院旁聽進不去我要發生什麼事他們那些要進去旁聽的民眾被警方擋在序碼外這件事情部長知道嗎"},{"start":294.126,"end":310.384,"text":"呃 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可不可以請部長示意一下報告委員 我想您所提出的這個部分我們非常的清楚現在極有法呢 仍然是在內部的審查當中還沒送到行政院對啊所以還沒有通過修正的理由是什麼"},{"start":500.349,"end":524.13,"text":"是行政院延宕嗎是內政部拖延嗎是行政院擺爛嗎還是內政部擺爛現在我在幫國際審查專家所問的問題台灣公民我們大家都很關心我們的政府說我們要人權立國我們的政府說我們台灣簽了ICCP"},{"start":526.192,"end":545.623,"text":"跟世界人權潮流接軌國際審查專家說請政府說明考量現行的法律違反了公正公約21條為何需要6年多的時間來釐清啊國際審查專家請政府說明啊我們大家看了"},{"start":546.71,"end":560.159,"text":"用我們納稅人的錢請來的國際審查專家提出來的問題我們大家都很關切啊但等不到政府一個答案啊您今天給的答案是說我們還持續在研議中是這樣嗎是這樣嗎"},{"start":563.675,"end":578.762,"text":"是的你還要研議多久我沒有辦法給委員做一個比較明確的方向所以繼續拖嘛繼續混嘛下一次的時候要再找國際審查專家來的時候可能人家要再問一次啦要再問一次啦這樣子浪費納稅人的錢找國際審查專家來幹嘛來做秀嗎來做秀嗎"},{"start":592.248,"end":600.595,"text":"國際審查專家問的問題你們也不回答事情也不解決就繼續放著就繼續放著這個就是我們現在內政部的態度喔就是我們現在內政部的態度喔繼續研議嘛 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書訂也有今天所有在的處長都有編啊我看你 我看預算書訂明年每年有47萬的特別費啊你們每個處長都有啊"},{"start":63.086,"end":66.997,"text":"我們是盡量不要砍可是你如果真的已經動到像你們說的要砍到民生的"},{"start":68.75,"end":97.345,"text":"報告委員您誤解我們的意思我們現在所講的財政收支劃分法是中央跟地方的財政怎麼收怎麼支怎麼劃分所以現在從中央減少的部分未來一定是會到地方政府所以我們還沒有跟地方政府了解跟完成所有的這個預算分配之前中央政府可能要設算下下一年度我們可能會損失的財源不是為了情樂全國人民"},{"start":97.725,"end":118.282,"text":"因為我們現在所要的公共建設都是要以全國人民的最大利益來考量而不是說錢不見了然後這個人民的收益就減少我想我們不是這個意思請委員不要誤解是哪些可以節省下來嘛不是節省你怎麼節省到民生影響到民生的政策呢不是節省變做地方政府要負擔的是多少"},{"start":122.225,"end":125.269,"text":"你應該先從你自己可以省的,對不對,可以省的地方嘛現在是兩個問題,不然你現在有兩個問題預算規模不一樣,我們不能等同而已你現在有兩個大問題要解決,第一個,你沒有跟上進度嘛"},{"start":139.016,"end":162.857,"text":"現在行政院的秘書長 交財政部長 租界長來 立法院都輕輕鬆鬆講沒有在明年馬上要實施嘛所以你太急了 你就潑了那個東西 這是第一個點 你趕快跟上進度因為我在5月30號的進度 跟上個禮拜行政院秘書長講的部分大概有一個禮拜之差所以我剛剛有跟很多委員講說 我們內政部裡面的官網裡面的文字的落差我們回去會去做檢討"},{"start":164.279,"end":176.771,"text":"所以第一首先檢討啦,跟上進度這是一個,第二我剛才提醒就是說你在任何減少預算的時候,你要檢討是什麼?有沒有腐爛的嘛?浪費的預算很多啊,各個部位都有啊"},{"start":177.725,"end":206.811,"text":"你像水電費就是太多了嘛今年中央政府總預算今年 欸 五年 五年才八十億水電費八十億 明年要增加到一零一啊這當然就是用得太多啊 人民也不同意啊這個去減 人民就鼓掌嘛那有些不當 鼓動議事要減包括內政部 大家出國的預算那麼多部長 我跟你講這個在整個那個草野協商的時候這個一定是統三一定會刪掉的啦所以你不要擔心錢不過要環熱劣質沒搞什麼 兩百七十幾億沒搞 我跟你講"},{"start":207.631,"end":225.296,"text":"你這會在獲益館啊報告委員您剛所提的這個不當的、糊爛的甚至有弊案的砍一砍要砍出一個三千億太容易了你不用四川那個民生了真的你要去砍民生回來砍自己從自己的特別會開始我們當然會檢討但是我也要跟委員報告水電費在公家機關來講那叫私底下給啦你有多少水府的電單多少電府的電單叫給叫給"},{"start":232.778,"end":246.731,"text":"省水省電嗎我只是跟委員報告一下說在有公務員他們一定是依法行政依照規定繳交水電費 不會多交也不能少交我還要寫啦 要寫來 柏定我來問你國土計畫法的事來來來 柏定國土計畫法現在要三讀修正了齁那怎麼樣 你不會提復議案啦不會送到道法官去解釋吧 對不對目前我也沒有嘿"},{"start":259.79,"end":275.67,"text":"不會 就是接受立法院的這個三讀修正的條文是 因為在立法院他完成三讀的程序當中我懷疑之前你態度很強硬啊沒有 報告委員我們擔任公務人員就是依法行政法律授權給我們多少我們就做多少"},{"start":275.93,"end":300.787,"text":"那現在國土計畫法已經在大院審查通過三讀通過的話我們按照三讀通過的原則跟裡面的部分來處理但是有一點就是說有關執法的部分我們雖然已經公告了16項但是因為已經有修正所以這16項要重新公告也就是說23項的執法的部分要給我們一點時間要重新公告博定你發現這邊國土計畫法修正裡面你有一部室沒有"},{"start":302.21,"end":323.733,"text":"第一個你也沒有事先好好準備好,第二個你也沒有好好溝通,你怕縣市政府跟民眾也不好好溝通然後到後來也沒有充分消除大家餘力更嚴重的,你也沒有因地制宜啊所以有四個沒有啊,啊不人家也在問一個問題啊你本來信誓旦旦馬上如期要做對不對,現在沒有如期上路你有沒有要負政治責任"},{"start":326.095,"end":347.627,"text":"我跟委員報告一下現在新的進度啦22個縣市裡面就是桃園市政府跟南投縣政府還沒有送上國土計畫的功能分區圖但是我跟張善政市長還有跟他們在地的委員溝通過之後他們告訴我在春節前會把這個桃園市的這個國土功能分區圖送上來"},{"start":348.467,"end":377.254,"text":"那南投縣長這個許縣長的部分呢我們也持續在溝通當中他所牽涉到的部分比較跟國土計劃法現行的這個處理條文比較不相干那我們幫忙他解決那也就是說在兩三個月之後我們希望22個縣市政府的國土功能分區圖都送上來那當我們根據新的國土計劃法的執法通過之後那我們再來一併公告執行也就是說我們按照"},{"start":378.054,"end":404.004,"text":"這個大院新通過的國土計劃法的相關規範包括幾個條文修正的部分呢我們都會做一個檢討來處理不是只有縣市長跟你有不同的這個意見很多民間團體或者農民有意見連民進黨的立法院跟你意見都是不一樣的如果是你現在過來你以前當過立委對不對你以前的立委劉士芳如果碰到一個這樣內政部長連跟自己的執政黨立委都溝通不良你會不會要讓他負起政治責任"},{"start":408.972,"end":412.915,"text":"因為我現在是當一個行政官員所以我並不願意回答如果的問題但是我跟委員報告我們在這過程的討論當中國土計畫法牽涉最多是農業還有農會"},{"start":429.184,"end":442.957,"text":"那這個部分呢農業部幫忙我們非常多所以這一次呢有若干委員所提出跟所謂的農業權或是農地發展權相關的部分在最後一刻的時候呢就沒有把它放到我們國土計畫法裡面"},{"start":444.378,"end":455.926,"text":"因為我們認為國土計劃法應該是市農工商各種包括都市計劃都可以放進去那我們也很謝謝包括很多委員都支持我們提出一個鄉村整體規劃法這個部分對於偏鄉地區的都市計劃來講是一個正向的發展"},{"start":461.69,"end":485.155,"text":"所以一來一往當中呢其實也是可以局限出來說在2015年通過的國土計畫法經過10年之後它確實有需要檢討跟改善的空間那所以站在我們立場我們就根據新的國土計畫法三讀通過之後做執法的修正然後再繼續跟地方政府來溝通其實全民在看你的就是你有沒有去傾聽民意啦"},{"start":486.275,"end":506.418,"text":"要不要做好溝通啦 搞不好就是沒有 我跟你說的不是自己管理政府的意見 農民有意見連你的民進黨立委都有意見現在是兩個問題 第一個你要不要負政治責任 這是一個第二個 現在爭取到展年六年對不對你這六年你就好好去傾聽把事情規劃好 你剛才所謂的一步是沒有"},{"start":507.299,"end":522.788,"text":"你這四個沒有 你在未來這個六年謝謝委員的指正 我們會來檢討因為剩下一點點時間 我直接就不用回答太魯閣的那個有一個峽谷的馬拉松今年就停辦了嘛我請那個"},{"start":524.77,"end":547.639,"text":"不可能辦嘛那他們希望明年辦這個太魯閣這邊要怎麼去幫忙一定要注意到安全當然這是一個國際的盛事啦很多人都希望可以參加可是一定要注意安全好不好另外第一件 陽明山有那個象天蝦那個有沒有那個湖啊每次下雨就很多人去那邊我的好朋友啊包括謝金河之前都說他進去那個湖過嘛"},{"start":548.649,"end":575.728,"text":"那個怎麼避免再進去,我看你們說要開罰嘛醫療那個地方的安全,避免大家去破壞這個生態,這個一定要做到另外一個,大家很注意,大家記得晴天剛都有看到那個野生的水牛對不對你們之前有提說要那個野生水牛每次下雨就衝下來把那個農田都採壞了對不對甚至有民眾發生危險啊你們之前有提說要去做什麼庇護的措施,到現在沒做耶這什麼"},{"start":578.695,"end":592.626,"text":"好啦剛剛我也已經說你們書面在回答他啦好不好不好意思因為我們我已經給你很多時間了因為現在很多民眾大家喜歡去看那些野生的水牛可是一碰到下雨那個真的老實講真的是危險的你是要給那個屁股手嘛好不好好給我給我個書面來"}]}},{"id":"16448","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16448","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcd57c7c755d2781a4a74692de86cf8f7f529fa0cca45d5627e049aed1f49134c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-01-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：繼續併案審查\n（一）台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員羅智強等27人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等22人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第一百六十三條之一及第一百六十三條之二條文草案」案。\n（四）委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「中華民國刑法第一百六十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員林思銘等16人擬具「中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員羅智強等29人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第三十七章章名及第三百六十四條條文草案」案。\n（七）委員吳宗憲等19人擬具「中華民國刑法增訂第十章之一、第一百七十二條之一及第一百七十二條之二條文草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-01-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-01-06T08:30:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-01-06T15:42:00+08:00","duration":25881,"影片長度":"07:11:21","委員發言時間":"08:30:39 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繼續併案審查現在先進行後續附委併案審查 個案之提案說明 發言時間三分鐘我們先 羅志強委員不在嗎 林思明委員也不在"},{"start":2157.446,"end":2168.85,"text":"是請說好那這樣子因為我也是提案人是不是因為好謝謝謝謝謝謝太好了謝謝好非常謝謝鍾昭偉我們這次就是"},{"start":2186.787,"end":2203.479,"text":"妨礙司法公正罪我們這個部分主要是因為我一直覺得說有兩個法案非常的重要而且是民眾很期待的我想這個在各黨之間也都沒有太大的歧義就是妨礙司法公正罪以及公義接避者保護法這兩個"},{"start":2206.181,"end":2229.456,"text":"一個法案其實這個對於一個國家的透明度在世界的評比上面都是一個非常重要的參考指數所以我到立法院之後呢我一直希望能夠至少讓這兩個法案能夠過關在公益階壁者保護法的時候我是希望說能夠讓各個機關或各個公司裡面勇於階壁的我們國家要政府要給他一些"},{"start":2230.296,"end":2245.381,"text":"有意義的保障那在妨害司法公正罪這個部分主要是說我們也要賦予我們國家司法人員他有一個武器他有一個方式可以告訴那些來對他進行不法關說的人因為目前的現行法"},{"start":2246.081,"end":2266.924,"text":"對於法官 檢察官你要到一定的程度譬如說行賄的程度那可能才會構成犯罪那在這個之外呢其實他的規範不夠明確以至於很多時候司法人員他即使要告訴他的長官說我不想這麼做或者是他告訴外人他的長官告訴外人說他不接受關說他變成沒有一個"},{"start":2267.805,"end":2282.611,"text":"很有效的依據所以我們認為說妨礙司法公正罪除非一方面是讓公平正義得以彰顯之外另外一方面我們也要賦予我們第一線的司法人員他有一個法律上的依據可以告訴大家說"},{"start":2283.331,"end":2299.458,"text":"我不能做這件事我做這件事的話除了對不起良心之外我還有法律上面的責任所以我相信防範司法公正罪它同時是在維護社會正義之外它也是在保護我們的司法人員所以這兩個法案是我在立法院一直希望趕快通過的法案"},{"start":2301.758,"end":2323.806,"text":"但是因為行政院他在108年9月17號已經法案有法務部已經送到行政院了可是一直到今天都還沒有送到立法院所以這個狀況下我們變成說我們就沒有辦法再等了就跟之前的潔癖者保護法一樣我們都一直在等下去不知道會等到什麼時候那既然108年行政院就拿到了那到現在"},{"start":2325.447,"end":2339.425,"text":"14年了5年過去了也都沒有送出來我想我們立法院還是必須盡到我們的職責趕快把它做到所以我們認為這段時間我們還是要避免這個國家有一些權貴的人他利用金錢或是一些賄賂"},{"start":2340.906,"end":2359.408,"text":"來去影響證人或是影響這些法官檢察官我們希望說這些都沒有那當然在過去有一些已經是被判決確定認為有關說的案子那些我們也要把它當作是教材在於將來我們希望不要有這種事情發生譬如說之前桃檢發生的某一個案子"},{"start":2360.089,"end":2380.187,"text":"那有一個逃漏稅的關說案那導致後來檢察長也離開了像這種東西關說就不應該成立或像之前柯總召他也有一件疑似的案子所以我希望說在將來我們都不要讓這些事情發生那再來就是說棄保潛逃的部分我們也是希望"},{"start":2381.893,"end":2408.909,"text":"國家目前對於氣保潛逃除了沒落他的保證金之外並沒有其他有效的作為那我們希望將來除了能夠沒落保證金之外我們同時也可以對他有科與一定的刑責只要有科與刑責在那自然檢方或是警察他就有一定的譬如說通緝或什麼方式可以把他強制的把他帶回來所以我們認為說氣保潛逃這個也是一個很重要必須要規範的我們以祝國榮的案子為例好了"},{"start":2409.229,"end":2432.87,"text":"他匯了幾十億的案子到海外那你5億的保證金對他來說是可以承受的損失這個成本是他可以支出的所以他當然會放棄那5億的保證金而不回來所以這些也是我們必須要給檢警調給我們的司法正義的彰顯我們要有一定的法律上面的效果給他那最後我還是希望一件事情說既然這個"},{"start":2434.491,"end":2462.382,"text":"妨害司法公認罪在行政院已經躺了五年了那我想我們立法院的各位立法委員不分黨派應該也是很希望趕快把這個法案推過去因為對於這個棄保潛逃或者是對於司法官的關說我想這個是大家都不能夠接受不能允許的我想這是基本人的嘗試所以司法是正義的最後一道防線那我們除了讓第一線的司法人員在面對那些罪犯之外我們這些立法者也應該在"},{"start":2464.149,"end":2486.228,"text":"當作這些司法人員的後盾我們立出一些有效的法律讓司法人員能夠面對第一線的犯罪好 謝謝各位好 謝謝那接下來我們請羅委員要做提案說明提案說明 季寶請"},{"start":2521.22,"end":2524.082,"text":"民進黨你們在縱放林秉文嗎"},{"start":2525.762,"end":2551.617,"text":"民進黨你們在縱放陳啟玉嗎民進黨你們在縱放所有的綠色權貴嗎今天我們討論的兩個重點的法案都攸關司法的公信跟公正其中棄跑潛逃罪是蔡英文執政的時候司法國事會議2017年的決議結果呢"},{"start":2555.882,"end":2576.996,"text":"到現在 行政院怠惰 到現在為止 連個版本都沒有八年過去 擺爛到這種程度 原因是什麼講白了 我認為就是有政治動機啊綠色權貴 氣保潛逃 比比皆是"},{"start":2578.089,"end":2589.678,"text":"梁文傑還可以跟林秉文嗨歌喝酒然後呢結交到我們的綠色的綠友友跟權貴掛鉤之後判個交保就棄保潛逃啦就沒事啦大事化小 小事化無啦這難道是今天我們面對棄保潛逃重犯我們的態度嗎"},{"start":2609.482,"end":2637.922,"text":"柯文哲七千萬交保不夠要把他抓起來 關起來因為怕他棄保潛逃鄭文燦就不用怕鄭文燦就不用怕所以鄭文燦就可以交保今天為什麼我們在這邊會要立下棄保潛逃罪也是在幫行政院 在幫法務部啊"},{"start":2639.793,"end":2654.358,"text":"不要再讓大家覺得司法雙標了吧遇到綠的就放遇到綠油油就放不是綠的不是綠油油就關就壓就抓有罪當然要關啦勿枉勿重是司法的精神啦但是無罪推定偵查不公開都不要忘了啦所以今天在這邊行政院不做我們做嘛"},{"start":2670.697,"end":2692.2,"text":"行政院不做我們做啊你們今天這麼不爽蔡英文蔡英文的司法國事會議的結論你們不爽啊你們不理她啊你把她當塑膠啊丟在旁邊啊那我們來做嘛第二個也是 也是司法國事會議的結論啊妨害司法公正罪 我跟全國人民說"},{"start":2694.326,"end":2721.233,"text":"台灣的司法就是有權判生無權判死啦以前叫有權判生無權判死現在就是有權判生無權判死在我們中華民國在台灣官說司法是無罪的請問所有的我們的民眾大家好好想一想你認識法官嗎你認識檢察官嗎"},{"start":2722.537,"end":2748.433,"text":"你認識鄭明謙法務部長嗎你認識誰你有可能關說司法嗎你是柯建民嗎你有本事透過國會的議長去關說法務部部長然後讓他的刑案免訴免罪判決確定嗎你是柯建民嗎你沒這個本事所有的平民老百姓沒這個本事"},{"start":2749.935,"end":2767.881,"text":"只有權貴有這個本事 包含這個權貴我講的還不是綠色的是所有權貴有這個本事當然民進黨為之遊烈啦民進黨出了一個柯建民會關說司法還出了一個陸委會主委 前法務部長邱泰山也會關說司法所以我要告訴大家司法的公信 歷史民調七成八成對司法沒有信心"},{"start":2778.595,"end":2795.004,"text":"不是沒有原因的不是沒有原因的我再講一次不是沒有原因的過去這麼多年該改變的法制通通不動為了維護權貴甚至特別是綠色權貴該修的法都不動"},{"start":2800.312,"end":2809.34,"text":"不動棄保潛逃罪 方便陳啟玉 方便林秉文 方便綠色權貴 可以棄保潛逃不定關說司法罪 方便柯建民 方便邱泰山 可以關說司法這個法案跟藍綠無關啊"},{"start":2822.398,"end":2829.729,"text":"司法公信力要不要再重新挽回 拜託大家今天讓這兩個法案通過 以上 謝謝"},{"start":2834.986,"end":2854.684,"text":"本日會議委員提案說明部分告一個段落本日會議定由法務部、內政部、移民署、警政署再提出書面報告相關書面報告列入公報記錄我先請問一下機關這邊有沒有要發表口頭報告"},{"start":2860.412,"end":2870.608,"text":"不是他們沒有 主席 我覺得因為今天另外有四個版本 包括召委的版本那其實因為我們上次已經有詢答過 那我就覺得增加了這新的版本 其實"},{"start":2871.26,"end":2889.808,"text":"那個主管機關應該有義務啊要接受詢答所以我來請求說主席剛剛在那個議程的詢問的時候我想說先讓提案說明進行完就要提出說是我今日啊我們仍然要就新併案的這些法案的內容我們可以就這些內容來跟主管機關進行詢答好 謝謝鐘召委"},{"start":2891.369,"end":2902.088,"text":"那這樣喔,因為我們今天有一些新的那個內容出來嘛那包括我自己也有提修這個東西,那是不是請法務部這邊能夠就這個部分發表一下意見,謝謝"},{"start":2908.017,"end":2922.225,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先進那今天奉邀列席代表本部來報告那委員提案修法的方向是與本部的立場是相同的都是為了維護司法公信力並呼應司法國事會的結論"},{"start":2923.045,"end":2940.595,"text":"那本部是競表支持那委員共提出有七案的一個審查其中四案已經在去年7月11號審查完畢那請就新政三案來表示法治面的一個意見那首先有關林思敏委員版本的部分那草案第161條第一項同時是規範的脫逃及棄保潛逃行為"},{"start":2946.358,"end":2961.03,"text":"兩者同時妨礙了司法的公正性但Total罪更涉及對國家拘禁作用的一個迫害不法性是更高的是否適合將兩者同樣設定為相同的刑度那這邊我們是建立在斟酌"},{"start":2962.091,"end":2977.185,"text":"另外在干擾證人、作證罪部分,草案列舉了騷擾、強暴、恐嚇、監控或脅迫但如果用傷害方式就不適用了恐怕有怪落萬的疑慮不法關說罪的部分,由於法官、檢察官職權還包括"},{"start":2978.884,"end":2997.197,"text":"審核強制處分實行公訴等那建立斟酌是否一併納入處罰的一個範圍第二有關羅志強委員的版本部分委員徵令364條處罰面向相當的一個全面然而構成要件是刑法第一次使用舉發"},{"start":2998.698,"end":3023.253,"text":"在立法上似乎特別排除舉報行為的適用另外不正當的經濟干預之具體內涵也有待確認建議需要釐清這些定義及適用範圍以避免適用法律上的一個疑義那此外個案若遭以私刑拘禁或傷害方式來妨礙作證現行法最高可處五年以下"},{"start":3024.605,"end":3053.885,"text":"但適用草案第二項刑律反而是二年以下也請斟酌是否有制定的一個實意呢那第三有關於吳宗憲委員的版本部分呢那委員版本新增處罰行賄證人的行為與本部草案立法處罰方向是一致的然而從維護司法公正的立法目的觀察對證人的要求企業收受賄賂或不正利益的話是否也應予以處罰這部分請通盤考量"},{"start":3054.805,"end":3073.223,"text":"最後不法關說罪部分實務上如果發生對承辦法官檢察官的長官來關說是否亦應予處罰也請一併斟酌考量以周全保護司法連結及符合的期待以上報告請委主席及各位委員指教"},{"start":3078.842,"end":3101.628,"text":"主席 各位委員先進我們今天的列席機關 法務部因為我們看到目前原來在上次的詢答的時候應該是包含了台灣民眾黨黨團還有羅志強委員這三個版本今天好像是新增了謝依鳳委員 林思敏委員"},{"start":3102.288,"end":3117.939,"text":"還有盧偉委員有新的版本,還有昭緯本身有新的版本那這當中大家不斷的在重複的提到的就是這個氣保潛逃,那其實在這個條文當中我們看到了這些版本當中有些共同的,也有一些不同的"},{"start":3118.439,"end":3139.162,"text":"那麼關於脫逃罪的部分的確有四個版本都有提到這個脫逃罪但是相對的包括了妨礙作證罪的部分大概都是後面的三個版本提出來爭列的雖然民眾黨黨團也有提出妨礙作證罪那另外對於司法關說罪的部分大概也是鑒於後面"},{"start":3140.524,"end":3154.68,"text":"今天所進入的這三個新的版本那這個部分本市覺得說貴於法務部對於這增加的包括剛剛所說到的妨礙司法公正的司法關說以及妨礙作證那這個部分剛剛的"},{"start":3158.444,"end":3174.788,"text":"法務部的說明是比較簡單希望待會主席能夠多一些時間讓我們有充分的時間了解主管機關對於今天送進來這三個版本這三項我再重複一次妨礙司法公正就是司法官說然後妨礙作證"},{"start":3177.049,"end":3202.066,"text":"那麼在脫逃罪的部分呢其實它跟棄保潛逃是有點區隔啦那但是呢另外我們也非常關心的就是一滅證據因為在目前啊大家所看到的一些重大的社會矚目案件其實呢固然之前有對於棄保潛逃或者說脫逃因為叫做通緝那目前通緝的部分那怎麼去設定那另外呢"},{"start":3203.158,"end":3222.835,"text":"隱滅證據的部分這也是目前我們司法案件當中被社會所矚目的因為只要有潛在證人在那麼這樣的隱滅證據是否透過了部分的交保的人他不只是棄保潛逃的問題嚴重而且因為他在拒保期間他人在外面對於其他的"},{"start":3223.315,"end":3240.504,"text":"既有的被告或其他的證人或潛在證人他們進行的這個隱滅證據或串證的行為在相關的法則上呢事務法務部呢也應該有一個明確的立場以上呢是希望主席能夠讓今天的三個版本讓主管機關能夠多做說明以上"},{"start":3241.777,"end":3262.949,"text":"好 謝謝那這樣就是因為我們那個中招委有特別提到說要請法務部就各個委員所提出來新的版本的部分能夠加以說明那是一些細節的部分那所以說我想法務部這邊是不是能夠由部長或次長這邊能夠就這次的各委員所提出來的部分加以說明"},{"start":3278.387,"end":3283.895,"text":"謝謝我想我們這就比較詳細的一個說明以林思敏委員這個年紀的一個"},{"start":3286.437,"end":3314.667,"text":"刑法的部分的修正查案他主要的重點是在刑法161條第一項跟第二項普通脫逃罪及強制脅迫脫逃的一個刑度那這部分在第一項他增訂了新訂了棄保潛逃的構成要件並增訂了第十章之一的妨礙司法公正罪章及賄賂證人妨礙作證部法官說等妨礙司法公正的一個一個處罰"},{"start":3315.677,"end":3342.537,"text":"但是在法務部的看法是這樣草案第161條第一項有提高現行偷逃罪的一個刑度跟本部提案的一個草案方向是一樣的但是我們現在現行的161條偷逃罪它是對國家拘禁作用的破壞及妨害司法公正行為草案第一項它新增是經命拒保責護限制駐居"},{"start":3343.557,"end":3370.742,"text":"限制出境或限制出海之逃亡殘疾行為這個是屬於妨害司法公正並沒有破壞國家拘禁的一個作用兩者現在的法律其實是不一樣的那所現在的法律的佈法的程度也有高低的差別那是不是都是要處同樣處一年以上七年以下的這個有期徒刑那這個有涉及罪責相當比例延遲我們這邊認為是還是要通盤做一個"},{"start":3372.222,"end":3399.437,"text":"一個考量我這個就詳細的做一個說明那另外林市民委員他的草案第161條第二項處罰損害拘禁處所借據及強暴脅迫偷逃行為涉及對拘禁處所借據的物理上破壞或強制行為那這部分這個侵略法案顯然比現行法第一項的偷逃罪為高那草案設定兩者的刑律相同是否"},{"start":3400.177,"end":3421.074,"text":"符合罪責原則,必願者見證證罪,就是說他第一項第二項都是用一年以上七年以下的一個罪責我們認為這部分司委在做一個證訟,這個是比較詳細的一個說明那另外妨礙司法公證罪部分,林思敏委員她的辦案是172條之二"},{"start":3423.547,"end":3450.565,"text":"那這部分就科以刑者的規範跟兩罪的一個刑度都是一年以上七年以下那這部分是否合乎罪責相當原則我們是可以再斟酌那另外對應的一個極拘罰金的極拘都是一百萬以下是否合乎刑法各罪間的自由刑罰金的衡平這部分我們認為可以再做一個討論這個再討論"},{"start":3454.67,"end":3479.449,"text":"那這部分還有那個172條之二所類的一個犯罪的一個手段它是採類舉的一個方式包括騷擾、強暴、恐嚇、監控或脅迫證人鑑定專家證人、同意或其配偶、分約者、直系血親等等甚至還有生活上有利害關係人違憲才能成立本條犯罪能妨害證據"},{"start":3481.929,"end":3498.485,"text":"妨礙作證鑑定或傳遞的手段是很多種的不限於上開的五種的類舉那如果說個案以傷害的方式那就沒有本條適用的這個餘地那是不是有改採概括加重"},{"start":3499.577,"end":3521.938,"text":"其一行就是二分之一或者等立法的一個模式那我們是可以另外再做一個考量那另外172條之三將不法關說的可以行者這部分那個草案的刑罪是一上七下那是否合乎罪行相當原則我們認為是可以再做一個一個一個斟酌考量"},{"start":3522.518,"end":3539.297,"text":"那另外對應的罰金的一個積聚一百萬這部分也是見請在座那另外法官的職權包括審核強制處分檢查職權包括實審公訴包括含上訴抗告與否撤回上訴抗告與否那上開程序是否"},{"start":3540.933,"end":3562.009,"text":"一併納入不法關說的處罰範圍我們認為是可以再做一個擴大可以再做一個擴大那實務上發生對懲罰法官檢察官的長官關說的一個情形那這部分我們是認為這部分是林士明委員的長版本是沒有這部分我們是認為是否可以考慮來加以處罰"},{"start":3564.251,"end":3590.309,"text":"這才能夠合乎那個人民的一個期待保障周全保護司法的一個連結那另外172條知事部分除了草案所列舉法官為一定裁判檢查為一定處分之外法官的職權也包括審的強制處分檢查職權包括實行公訴那這部分草案的刑度呢是一上七下那這個集軍的一個罰金的一個級距因為100萬以下"},{"start":3594.131,"end":3614.816,"text":"那這部分這個自由行跟罰金行的這部分的一個橫評這邊我們見請在座那另外我們那個羅志強委員的一個草案"},{"start":3615.689,"end":3636.829,"text":"那這部分我們也是在一個30644條的刑度是兩年以下那這部分跟恐惡罪的刑度是相同的那但是卻比302條第一項私刑拘禁罪五年以下有期徒刑304條第一項的強制罪的三年以下徒刑為低那這部分是否"},{"start":3642.594,"end":3660.067,"text":"如果是這樣如果說以這個草案是兩年的話是否有有再制定草案的一個實役呢我們是見請在座那另外範例是不是可以改為一個傳理合乎訴訟法的一個用詞那另外這部分用舉發的一個行為那這個舉發跟舉報"},{"start":3662.388,"end":3681.499,"text":"是不一樣的那是不是現行刑法並沒有舉發的用語是否在建立在說明欄序名釐清以避免發生後續跟偵審機關適用法律上的一個疑義以上我就做一個簡單的做一個補充那剩下是不是就大體討論的時候我們再詳細的"},{"start":3687.418,"end":3706.514,"text":"主席謝謝我們那個部長的說明或許其他的部分次長也可以補充因為我們剛剛看到其實我們看到我們委員會所做的這個法條會整變當中我們看到大概主要版本都是增加了就是對於脫逃罪有人是在161條直接去改"},{"start":3706.934,"end":3733.493,"text":"也有人呢把它用增列條文的方式那目前呢剛剛提到的呢就是妨礙作證罪那妨礙作證罪目前各個版本當中有放在用172條之一也有用364條去處理但是呢我們也看到了呢甚至後面的也有包括民進黨團版本還有之三我想呢這樣的一個新增的方式那麼這樣修訂的方式那其實呢剛剛邱剛剛部長所講的"},{"start":3736.115,"end":3745.027,"text":"其實妨礙作證罪其實這個我們認為這是目前現存非常嚴重的一個事情那妨礙作證罪跟"},{"start":3745.595,"end":3770.273,"text":"殷滅證據罪目前定在刑法165條中的殷滅證據罪那目前的各版本都沒有對本條進行修訂可是事實上的殷滅證據罪跟我們各版本當中所提到的妨礙作證罪它其實都是跟我們所說的拒保不拒保考量當中為了保障後續的司法審判是公平公正譬如說我們為什麼有"},{"start":3773.875,"end":3795.568,"text":"被告他現在不予交保就是防止他串證那這個串證不但會發生在一滅證據165條的一滅證據上也會發生事實上就算是被告他並沒有交保但是事實上妨礙作證罪也可能在審理的期間由其他人來進行影響"},{"start":3799.77,"end":3821.225,"text":"所以我們看到了有各個版本當中對妨礙作證罪進行的規範但是卻沒有看到對於隱滅證據罪這也是很明顯的在刑事訴訟當中審理期間可能大家都非常關心的那舉例來講目前大家所關注的這個金華城案那麼其實目前被通緝中的應該"},{"start":3824.636,"end":3844.956,"text":"大家算是被告還是證人我是不清楚啦我知道他被通緝通緝因為傳喚未到嘛那應該算是被告了那麼他一知不曉得人在哪裡那他的通訊方式他所持的通訊軟體目前呢也無法掌握那這種情況之下如何防止這種這個尚未在到案的"},{"start":3845.596,"end":3863.184,"text":"被告他去做一滅證據那麼未來他有這樣的行為未來在他面對司法審判的時候會不會有相關的加重的處罰就像我們現在談脫逃罪談氣泡潛逃氣泡潛逃本身對於被告本身上次的詢問當中就有人關心到過去的氣泡潛逃"},{"start":3865.038,"end":3891.309,"text":"為什麼在要不要剋罪的部分 剋刑的部分呢 有一些討論有人認為說有重複剋刑的問題但是呢 現在情況下大家關心的是棄保檢討已經造成我們相關司法案件審理的不公正那隨著妨礙司法公正 大家的意識上越來越覺得應該防治那是否呢 法務部在對於我們剛剛各版本當中有提到的妨礙作證罪以及呢 並沒有條文"},{"start":3893.086,"end":3914,"text":"沒有版本觸及到的一滅證據的165條的關聯性如何能不能進行一個闡述因為呢這涉及到我們委員會在後續為了妨礙司法公正有沒有要專章還是要依各個版本的方式來做逐條的修訂或新增這都有相關的關聯是不是能請法務部呢再請主席讓法務部再進行說明謝謝"},{"start":3914.929,"end":3919.331,"text":"我第一次發言首先今天主席排審的這個議案我個人是認為"},{"start":3939.231,"end":3949.382,"text":"這個當然主席早日康復這個身體為樣這個是大家給予您祝福但是我認為在司法法治委員會到目前為止今天審這個議案當然可以討論過去行政院"},{"start":3954.628,"end":3975.905,"text":"也針對相關的議案相關的主張進行研議當中沒有人反對要針對防賴司法公正或者是增加棄保潛逃的刑度刑責等等我想這個方向上都可以討論但現在是說這個我對於主席有一點小小的不解我們司法法治委員會是所有八個委員會裡頭審查進度預算的進度最尾班"},{"start":3981.997,"end":3985.396,"text":"所以我們對於法務部的預算是完全沒有進入"},{"start":3987.037,"end":3993.218,"text":"預算的審查我們事實上是八個委員會裡頭審查預算進度最後的一個那我原本以為這個我們朝委身體康復之後會優先來針對這個會期預算會期要進行的法務部的預算趕快先行來審查這是我的認知跟期待我也認為這應當先把我們該寫的功課寫好"},{"start":4012.523,"end":4014.884,"text":"交出來我認為應當是這樣所以對於今天的排案來直接處理這一個版本我是有一點這個在排案上的一些不解那第二個呢我也認為這麼重要的一個議案妨礙司法公正罪除了"},{"start":4032.529,"end":4054.956,"text":"目前的七個版本多數的委員針對棄保潛逃恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪司法關說罪等等都有相關的議案提出來不管是原始我們當初詢答的四個案子七月間大家討論的四個案子或是今天在有林思敏吳宗憲跟羅志強的另外一案好現在是七案"},{"start":4055.536,"end":4082.358,"text":"但事实上我相信刚刚嘉宾委员花了很多时间在针对第165条166条的页面证据罪的部分它应当是一个完整的配套甚至172之4诉讼外目的的使用证据罪也应当是含括在这一整个完整的讨论当中它会更宏观更全面那所以说现在要讨论这个版本"},{"start":4083.078,"end":4104.784,"text":"就由委員的版本先行處理我認為在版本上是掛一漏萬的我也認為是比較欠缺一個宏觀的思維那我們如果要真的來針對妨礙司法公正傷害司法獨立更應當擴大打擊的層面那也更應當有多元的思考納進來"},{"start":4106.124,"end":4126.7,"text":"所以我一直主張從我7月質詢的時候要求行政部門我也知道法務部是有在研議行政院的版本當中我一直再一次在這裡提出呼籲也請主席要來參採我認為這個重要的議案要有行政院的版本在一併的審查"},{"start":4127.501,"end":4146.241,"text":"否則我剛剛說的嘉賓講的湮滅證據罪還有172之4訴訟外目的的使用證據罪怎麼規範怎麼處理這個可能行政部門有更完整的思維那當然另外我覺得妨礙司法的獨立妨礙司法的公正啊我是真的覺得很怪誕啊"},{"start":4147.925,"end":4175.238,"text":"立法委員或者是立法院的黨團帶著人民去衝北檢去包圍北院這是不是妨礙司法公正這是不是要企圖用政治的壓力去干擾影響辦案啊又或是我們看到所謂的這個活動是不是更要大規模的來鬥臭司法"},{"start":4176.426,"end":4200.471,"text":"這是不是也是我們要非常嚴肅的去思考到的這是不是一個我們除了好我講條文對於172之4條現在呢民眾黨的版本呢就針對納入法官檢察官然後是不法官說者那我想問立法委員的請託施壓是不是妨礙司法公正啊"},{"start":4202.625,"end":4224.376,"text":"我們在這個當下在審議這個我根本我從頭到尾都一直在說這個會期立法院的司法法治委員會是最過當的用政治力去干預司法個案的一個階級法案可以討論但是要真的能夠做到一個公正摒除政治力"},{"start":4225.376,"end":4249.839,"text":"那我再次主張司法法治委員會先把我們該做的功課做好我認為省預算我們都是現在各個委員會在等我們要進入的朝野協商就因為司法法治委員會還沒有送出法務部的預算所以現在各個黨團下午就要協商了沒有辦法針對總預算進行協商我們已經把時間壓縮的非常緊迫了甚至今天有媒體報導"},{"start":4251.772,"end":4278.285,"text":"有媒體上已經預測如果各委員會還沒有完成預算的審議那這個會期是不是沒有辦法完成總預算的審議我想這個是攸關國家建設全民福祉非常重要的那第二個回到今天的排案我認為要有行政院的版本一併來參採這才不會掛一漏萬也才不會急救張"},{"start":4279.383,"end":4289.569,"text":"那第三個對於司法公正的妨礙我想提案的委員我們大家都應當要能夠非常清楚的任何人都不應當去影響"},{"start":4290.379,"end":4311.561,"text":"介入、干預、施壓、鬥臭司法這才是立法委員該做的事你們現在在講這都是大力討論的部分我們現在進行的是提案說明以及機關報告我想各位都這麼資深的立委一定很清楚現在的狀況黃委員先等一下我先跟委員會報告一下"},{"start":4312.562,"end":4336.795,"text":"還有跟那個吳委員報告一下就是說第一個為什麼我們沒有等行政院的版本是因為行政院在108年就已經拿到法務部的版本但已經拖了5年了都沒有送出來所以我們也沒有再有所期待那第二個有關法務部的預算我們已經排在本週四就要審並不是說我們不審查所以我們禮拜四就要審查這個部分我想可以請各位去看一下我排的議程"},{"start":4337.856,"end":4355.465,"text":"那既然108年行政院到現在都沒有送出來那我覺得再等下去可能又是再一個5年了所以不管在催促者保護法或是有關司法正義這一塊那我覺得我們就積極的來處理黃委員是不是說我們大家大體討論的東西我們都留在大體討論好嗎請黃委員現在是不是要進入大體討論"},{"start":4366.322,"end":4391.393,"text":"所以我剛剛有跟各位報告一下我們現在進行的部分是提案說明及機關報告主席不好意思我請教一下如果是提案說明跟報告那都講完了啊提案也說明了機關也報告了那這個程序是不是應該往下走進入大體討論因為那個我跟主席報告對主席在議事上面的主持我百分之一百的尊重"},{"start":4392.809,"end":4410.043,"text":"那提案說明跟報告明顯的就已經結束了那我們是不是應該要進入大體討論主席宣布大體討論完了以後等一下要大體討論要說那大家再來討論這個都沒有問題那只是說現在停在提案說明與"},{"start":4411.853,"end":4426.226,"text":"提案說明與報告那有的時候各個委員各有立場那各有想法我覺得這都正常那我們是不是就進入大體討論來討論那要不然一直留在提案說明與報告這樣我覺得很怪"},{"start":4426.866,"end":4451.607,"text":"那還是說要繼續留在這個階段大家繼續講下去我也OK我完全都尊重主席那剛剛我已經有舉手了那接下來就請主席採釋像好就是說因為莊委員剛剛有舉手那我再一次說明我已經說了第三次了我們現在進行的是提案說明及機關報告那各位如果有要希望大體討論的我們待會到大體討論程序的時候再能夠讓各位能暢所欲言好那莊委員"},{"start":4454.129,"end":4461.575,"text":"謝謝張偉 其實大體討論跟主條那本來是必經的一個程序剛剛黃國昌委員的一個發言我比較認為是屬於會議詢問所以我剛剛也舉手了但我都覺得審這個法案OK我這一部法案到現在"},{"start":4473.147,"end":4487.979,"text":"讓我非常困惑的一個地方就是說我很想去支持可是呢我的發言似乎看起來又反對因為這些條文把我搞得我到現在就把我混淆到整個我對於法律的一個價值的一個判斷我現在一下要談的"},{"start":4489.994,"end":4515.189,"text":"我覺得比較可惜的就是說前面每一位委員有提出他的一個高見就像譬如說一部法令裡面我上次就提過幾個考慮思考的一個方向今天法務部提到的就是說有幾個條文裡面不符合罪責的一個原理是啊我當初也是這樣想啊你說這一部法令裡面你說90年沒有去修掉你一下子把它增加三倍"},{"start":4516.377,"end":4535.358,"text":"要有一個說明不是不能贊成但要有一個說明那比如說今天很多法案裡面所提出來我上次所提過的大家都各言我自而已啊你今天談到的罪責不符合罪責原理那你沒有實際上的去講說你法務部真正的認為是什麼"},{"start":4536.98,"end":4565.232,"text":"今天這一檔我是認為有一點點錯亂我請大家仔細去做一個思考你像比如說你161條之一台灣民眾黨的你在講的聚寶折戶限制跟限制住居跟限制出境出海的一個被告裡面合法傳喚不到庭庭我如果去通緝的話三年以下有嫉妒刑我這不是在進入主條我是認為這個是很明顯的非常粗糙我很少講這種話為什麼說他非常粗糙的原因就是說"},{"start":4567.988,"end":4587.798,"text":"如果說我今天脫勞罪是三年以下我在公權力的掌控之下我就跑掉了三年以下那已經非公權力掌控之下的你也三年以下這罪者不均我提出來大家要談比較大的一個概念的部分我就認為這一條161-1跟新增的161-1你把它"},{"start":4593.735,"end":4610.972,"text":"配合著161條脫逃罪你把它提高三倍這樣的一個罪責不通我認為不通那另外第二個就是說我更認為你一個拒保的人一個責負的人為什麼會拒保因為譬如說你羈押羈押完以後你說不管是一千萬兩千萬三千萬或者說一億"},{"start":4614.844,"end":4624.335,"text":"那你把他拒保出去了可能你認為說這個可能沒有串證之餘我要保全被告 我有電子假容就夠了如果是這樣子的話那我如果今天是一個責負的"},{"start":4626.995,"end":4647.43,"text":"我責負你就是認為我應該是應該是比較沒有什麼這個人請黃國昌帶回去他在黨主席的帶回去你給我負責這樣你也三年以下這我就認為好奇怪那罪責不符合那你的罪到最後你的構成要件是講說你經合法傳喚沒有正當理由不到庭並發布通緝責那才三年以下"},{"start":4648.371,"end":4676.313,"text":"如果說這個案子我假檢察官跟疑檢察官每一個人看法會有所不同他會認為我就責負而已啊或者是我已經給他陷入自居了就這麼輕的一個罪這麼輕的一個罪只因為他一個庭 兩個庭 三個庭沒有來也不知道什麼原因現在傳喚不到我就給你發布通緝有沒有去成就他到底要不要犯罪是後面的發布通緝如果有的話就變成三年我覺得這很可怕"},{"start":4677.113,"end":4685.057,"text":"我覺得這種立法 台灣民眾黨這種立法 還有國民黨很多提出類似的立法太可怕你們是在野黨欸 你們有沒有搞錯這種反而 因為台灣政黨會來來去去欸這種都是 應該是執政黨去提出來的法案這是可怕的法案 反而是在野黨提出來的法案這個我就比較不能認同"},{"start":4702.554,"end":4729.949,"text":"我是比較不能認同我講這些都沒有黨派我就說這些從頭到尾這部法令在審的時候我都一直在示警一直在警告我們要尊重司法沒有錯啊可是你賦予他這個中間的一個手段我們尊重司法是不是應該是後面那個決定去尊重他還是前面這一些偵查或者這一些給當"},{"start":4732.632,"end":4751.973,"text":"擁有公權力的人更大的一個手段所以我是一直在思考這樣到底好還是不好請大家再散示一下這一些比較比較大家我會覺得比較前提性的問題大家先釐清一下 昭偉也學法"},{"start":4753.214,"end":4772.967,"text":"那個王總召也學法,翁曉琳委員也都是學友專精那這一些有點顛覆啦,有點顛覆我我從過去的學法到現在到現在的一個沒有人有辦法跟我說明的地方,像譬如說"},{"start":4774.307,"end":4803.348,"text":"證人有比較大法官的真的比較大嘛你說證人鑑定人 通譯那個部分你就跟法官的好像是行者又弄得不一樣這個都都很奇怪沒有辦法去做一個說明啦尤其是證據污染的部分這個我等一下再來說是不是啊 避其功於一役喔把它弄清楚學者專家的再弄一次這件沒有公聽嘛"},{"start":4804.844,"end":4825.017,"text":"我們真的要把幾十年沒有動過的或者是我們顛覆了我們的法律人的基本價值的東西再去做釐清像譬如說 趙偉告訴來論之罪的老婆去打個老公或者老公去打個老婆打完了 負氣了一方提出告訴"},{"start":4826.448,"end":4854.223,"text":"那這一些不管哪怕你起訴到審判階段你還是可以撤回的啊那只因為我前面你給我傳聞我不來三年以下比原來的本刑本罪還要重這些都對我的觀念都產生很大很大的衝突我們從這個案子在審的時候大家都各言而治而已啊都沒有辦法互相說服彼此啦那畢竟這是幾十年來的一個大變革啦所以我是覺得說再善施再考慮一下以上那我們"},{"start":4860.688,"end":4878.521,"text":"主席謝謝給我這個發言的結論因為算是一種會議的說明跟詢問因為事實上剛剛一開始本席提出來也是尊重主席的議事的裁量那我是說因為我們上次的詢答是在7月11號對於前面三個版本"},{"start":4879.201,"end":4894.635,"text":"的內容進行詢答所以剛剛我一開始跟主席請求的就是說因為今天又增加了四個版本那本來呢剛剛也有提案委員做了說明了也有機關做了報告了那本來是希望說是否今天就後續新增的版本有機會"},{"start":4896.096,"end":4911.458,"text":"進行詢答的程序我的原因是這樣子啦當然這個體力上應該怎麼安排我們尊重主席因為畢竟過去也有這樣的做法就是說有這個病案審查的時候新增的案子我們會再安排部會的詢答"},{"start":4913.18,"end":4938.744,"text":"那再進行後續的廣泛討論跟逐條討論那當然也會有併案審查的過程當中就直接從廣泛討論到這個逐條討論去進行我只是說明避免會誤解我剛剛請求的是這個意思並不是說我對於今天的廣泛討論或逐條討論呢有意見而是說因為有新增版本可否容許讓機關的巡打這個部分可以有所安排以上說明"},{"start":4941.252,"end":4956.282,"text":"剛剛機關也有說明我們現在提案說明跟機關報告就進行完畢我們現在進行討論事項繼續並審查台灣民眾黨黨團凝聚的中華民國刑法部分修正條文等其案進入議程討論事項前我們會先請議事人"},{"start":4960.81,"end":4973.998,"text":"先宣讀所有的條文如果有修正動議就請趕快交到主席台並宣讀宣讀的時間我們預估是12分鐘待會再宣讀這12分鐘裡面如果各位委員對機關還有什麼問題要溝通的在這12分鐘請機關跟委員就盡量溝通我們現在就開始宣讀條文請宣讀"},{"start":4990.5,"end":5007.735,"text":"討論四項中華民國刑法部分條文修正草案台灣民眾黨黨團提案第161條除第一項第二句條文中處一年以下修正為處三年以下第二項第二句條文中處五年以下修正為處一年以上七年以下另第四項"},{"start":5009.076,"end":5033.957,"text":"前三項之未碎犯後增訂逗號外其餘未修正委員羅志強等27人提案第161條除第一項修正為依法逮捕拘禁之人脫逃者處三年以下有期徒刑被告受拒保折付限制住區限制出境或限制出海而經合法傳喚無正當理由不到場經發布通緝者易通"},{"start":5034.938,"end":5056.651,"text":"第二項手續中前項後增訂前段二字第三項手續中第一項後增訂前段二字另增訂第五項為逃逆被告涉犯最輕本刑三年以上有期徒刑之罪而犯第一項之罪者得加重其刑至二分之一其餘未修正委員謝一鳳等提案第161條對趙偉羅志強等27人提案除第四項"},{"start":5062.495,"end":5092.215,"text":"前三項諸位碎犯後增訂逗號外其餘同委員羅志強等27人提案委員林思明等提案第161條處第一項修正為依法逮捕拘禁之脫逃者或經命拒保責付限制住居限制出境或限制出海之逃亡藏匿者處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑另第二項第二具條文中處五年以下修正為處一年以上七年以下其餘未修正"},{"start":5092.415,"end":5092.517,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":5094.022,"end":5123.03,"text":"台湾民众党党团提案第161条之一经检察官或法官命拒保则附限制住居或限制出境出海之被告经合法传唤无证当理由不到庭并经发布通缉者处三年以下有期徒刑违反刑事诉讼法第166条之二锁定应遵守之事项经制止人在违反者处三年以下有期徒刑拘役或三十万元以下罚金被告经有罪判决确定"},{"start":5123.47,"end":5151.757,"text":"取宣告刑或锁定之执行刑在五年有期徒刑以上而犯前二项之罪者加重其刑之二分之一韦红孟凯等提案第163条之一被告受拒保折付限制住居限制出境或限制出海而有下列情形之一者处五年以下有期徒刑得并科一百万元以下罚金一经合法传唤无证当理由不到场经发布通缉二逃亡或偿逆经发布通缉"},{"start":5152.737,"end":5174.578,"text":"被告違反法院許可停止羈押時所命應遵守之事項者處三年以下有歧途行得併科三十萬元以下罰金被告涉犯最新本刑三年以上有歧途行之罪而犯前二項之罪者加重其刑至二分之一犯第一項或第二項之罪而有下列情形之一者不罰依本案為法官本案為法院認為因"},{"start":5176.724,"end":5194.89,"text":"拘役罰金或因欲知免刑或無罪這條案件二本案為檢察官為不起訴或還起訴處分這案件文宏孟楷等提案第163條之二犯前條之罪而自首或自動到案者檢清或免除其刑"},{"start":5196.667,"end":5213.514,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第十章之一章名防害司法公正罪委員羅志強等二十九人提案第三十七章章名防害司法公正罪委員林思明等及委員吳宗憲等提案第十章之一章名均為防害司法公正罪"},{"start":5216.274,"end":5237.911,"text":"台湾民众党党团提案第172条之一对于证人鉴定人同意行求契约或交付不正利益而约其不为证言鉴定或翻译或约其为一定之证言鉴定或翻译者处验以上7年以下有期徒刑得并可100万元以下罚金文罗志祥等提案"},{"start":5238.812,"end":5258.504,"text":"文羅志強等二十九人提案第364條意圖妨礙作證鑑定或翻譯就自己或他人之案件對證人鑑定人同意或與前述有密切利害關係之人實施騷擾、強暴、脅迫、恐嚇、監控要計或其他違反本人意願方法"},{"start":5259.585,"end":5274.312,"text":"知犯罪行為者處二年以下由其徒刑拘獄獲五新台幣五萬元以下罰金意圖妨害舉發救自己或他人這案件對舉發義務人或與其有密切利害關係之人實施騷擾強暴脅迫"},{"start":5279.431,"end":5290.931,"text":"恐嚇監控藥劑或其他違反本人意願方法之犯罪行為者一同意圖妨害司法調查偵查審判或執行就自己或他人質案件"},{"start":5292.526,"end":5312.414,"text":"對該管公務員或與其有密切替代關係之人騷擾強暴脅迫恐嚇監控要計或其他違反本人意願方法之犯罪行為者一同處三年以下有期徒刑拘役或新台幣五萬元以下罰金意圖妨礙作證鑑定或翻譯就自己或他人之案件"},{"start":5312.954,"end":5327.865,"text":"对证人坚定人通议或与签诉有密切利害关系之人行求契约或交付贿赂或其他不正利益或为不正当之经济干预者处六个月以上五年以下有期徒刑"},{"start":5329.006,"end":5353.875,"text":"並科新台幣300萬元以下罰金意圖妨害舉發對舉發義務人或與其有密切利害關係之人行求契約或交付、賄賂或其他不正利益或為不正當之經濟干預者一同意圖妨害司法調查、偵查、審判或執行就自己或他人之案件對該管公務員證人、鑑定人通異"},{"start":5355.066,"end":5369.76,"text":"举发医务人或与其有密切利害关系之人施以诈诉请托官说或其他不当方法处六个月以上三年以下有歧途刑并科薪台币一百万元以下罚金"},{"start":5371.881,"end":5390.831,"text":"為林思敏等提案第172條之一,刑求其約交付賄賂或其他不正利益與證人、鑑定人、專家、證人同意,而約其不為證言、鑑定或傳譯,或約其為一定之證言、鑑定或傳譯者,處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑。"},{"start":5391.551,"end":5420.132,"text":"得并科三十万元以上一百万元以下罚金委乎中线等提案第172条之一意图使证人鉴定人通议不为证言鉴定或翻译或使其为一定之证言鉴定或通议而行求契约或交付不正利益者处三年以下有期徒刑得并科五十万元以下罚金意图使举发诱人不为举发而行求契约或交付不正利益者一同"},{"start":5422.093,"end":5450.748,"text":"台湾民众党党团提案第172条之二意图使证人鉴定人同意不为证言鉴定或翻译或使其为一定之证言鉴定或翻译骚扰其本人或其之配偶磁系血亲三亲等内旁系血亲二亲等内姻亲或家长家属与其定有婚约者或其他身份上或生活上有密切利害关系之人者处三年以下有歧途行得病科三十万元以下罚金"},{"start":5451.648,"end":5475.809,"text":"為零四名等敵人第172條之二騷擾、強暴、脅迫、監控或脅迫證人、鑑定人、專家證人、同意或其配偶、婚約者直系血親、三親等內、旁系血親、二親等內、姻親或家長家屬或生活上有利害關係之人以使其不為證言鑑定或傳譯或使其為一定之證言鑑定或傳譯者"},{"start":5476.85,"end":5485.837,"text":"处一年以上七年以下有期徒行得病科50万元以上300万元以下发金台湾民众党党团提案第172条之三"},{"start":5488.598,"end":5512.138,"text":"意圖使證人鑑定人通譯不為證言鑑定或翻譯或使其為一定之證言鑑定或翻譯對其本人或其之配偶直系血親三親等內旁系血親二親等內姻親或家長家屬與其定有婚約者或其他身份上或生活上有密切利害關係之人"},{"start":5512.839,"end":5540.999,"text":"实行前条以外是犯罪行为者依其所犯之罪加重其刑之二分之一台湾民众党党团提案第172条之四意图使法官为一定制裁判或使检察官为一定制处分在司法案件侦查审判或执行中于法定程序外对法官或检察官为不不法官说者处一年以上七年以下有期徒行得病科一百万元以下罚金文林四名等提案第172条之三意图"},{"start":5542.1,"end":5558.261,"text":"指法官或檢察官為一定之裁判或處分在司法案件偵查審判或執行中對法官或檢察官或其職務關係人以不正方法行官說或請託者處一年以上七年以下有歧途刑"},{"start":5558.821,"end":5582.57,"text":"得并科30万元以上100万元以下罚金文由中宪等提案第172条之二意图使法官检察官不为一定之裁判或处分或为一定之裁判或处分在司法案件侦查审判或执行中对法官或检察官为不法官说者处五年以下有期徒刑得并科100万元以下罚金"},{"start":5584.687,"end":5609.137,"text":"台湾民众党党团提案第172条之五意图使法官为一定之裁判或使检察官为一定之处分在司法案件侦查审判或执行中对其本人或其之配偶子姓血亲三亲等类旁系血亲二亲等类姻亲或家长家属与其定有婚约者或其他身份上或生活上有密切利害关系之人"},{"start":5609.737,"end":5637.177,"text":"实行犯罪行为者依其所犯之罪加重其刑之二分之一文林四名等提案第172条之四意图使法官或检察官为一定制裁判或处分在司法案件侦查审判或执行中对其本人或其配偶婚约者直系血亲三亲等类旁系血亲二亲等类姻亲或家长家属或生活上有利害关系之人实行犯罪行为者处一年"},{"start":5637.757,"end":5661.379,"text":"以上7年以下有期復刑 得病科30萬元以上100萬元以下罰金繼續修正動議部分修正動議一對照委員中線等19人提案第172條之二第一項條文中對法官或檢察官為不法官說者修正為對法官或檢察官或其監督長官為不法官說者"},{"start":5662.34,"end":5676.949,"text":"並增訂第二項為前向法官、檢察官因而不為或為一定制裁判或處分者處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑得併科五百萬元以下罰金提案委員吳宗憲、聯署人黃國昌、吳曉琳等"},{"start":5678.11,"end":5693.005,"text":"修正動議二對照台灣民眾黨黨團提案第172條之四修正為意圖使法官為一定或不為一定之裁判或處分或使檢察官為一定或不為一定之處分或足以影響裁判結果之職務上行為"},{"start":5693.866,"end":5706.219,"text":"在司法案件偵查、審判或執行中與法定程序外對法官、檢察官或其指揮監督長官為不法官說者處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑得併科一百萬元以下罰金"},{"start":5748.142,"end":5754.921,"text":"提案條文修正動議都已經宣讀完畢那我們現在進行討論事項那請問一下需不需要進行大體討論"},{"start":5756.493,"end":5782.578,"text":"好 需要的話那我們請在場委員在場委員現在表示需要進行大力討論那我們有鑑於就是前面委員發言很踴躍那我們為了讓發言有順序那我們請想要發言的委員到前面來登記然後每人發言三分鐘那我們第一輪發言完畢之後那如果有需要我們再進行第二輪再這樣以此類推好 謝謝各位"},{"start":5783.058,"end":5792.223,"text":"最好是第一輪發言完就結束了"},{"start":5841.121,"end":5860.143,"text":"好 謝謝 那我們現在請第一位 鍾嘉斌委員發言好 謝謝主席 這邊還是要表示一天遺憾因為設法制委員會 我們兩個不同政黨的召委輪流主持那事實上我們可以看得到 可以肯定的比較得到"},{"start":5861.941,"end":5875.171,"text":"包括上週因為現在的召委主席有個人因素那麼我們就對調臨時之間我們就排了稅審法稅審法將近30個條文是新修法"},{"start":5877.492,"end":5904.62,"text":"讓大家充分討論那也感謝我們委員會其他委員我們也好不容易大概有將近半的條文已經進入主條討論但是呢 仍然有將近半的條文呢我們可能還後續待審可是在審查期間呢我們都是充分發言連發言時間都沒有限制我真的誠懇的呼籲主席你要登記我OK啦但是發言時間可不可以盡量的讓我們能夠充分的討論因為底下的發言可能大家會知道一個修訂法"},{"start":5905.62,"end":5926.512,"text":"它可能會影響到很多不同層次的人民那我接下來就來說明一下像我們現在我們在討論的這161條這個脫逃罪那其實在實務上它不是只是針對因為我們立法一定有一個目標跟方向譬如說我們看到涉及社會矚目重大案件那麼有些被告那麼是"},{"start":5928.633,"end":5956.639,"text":"責負 交保但是呢他卻棄保潛逃所以剛剛我們對於脫逃罪都是用棄保潛逃來做說明但是呢我們有其他的情況是會不會因為我們要對這些重大案件責負或交保的被告我們要防止他脫逃或者刻意他的刑責而反而讓其他的輕罪或違罪的其他的相關人民呢受到損害譬如說我舉例齁"},{"start":5958.879,"end":5978.558,"text":"那通緝好了 什麼時候會發布通緝通緝不見得我是刑案被告才發布通緝啊我們目前常常在處理的有什麼事情呢 就是交通事故交通事故 經常最近我們收到很多案件都是屬於什麼 叫做這個算是遺棄啦 就是"},{"start":5980.287,"end":5998.574,"text":"肇事逃逸啦那肇事逃逸很多機車擦撞那麼雙方覺得沒什麼妨礙那一方呢就離開了但是可能另一方他覺得越想越不甘心他就報警然後呢在現場那警察到了或者說還要叫救護車救護車到了發現令肇呢不在現場那麼後續的做詢問筆錄的時候很可能這些先離開的肇事"},{"start":6008.855,"end":6023.745,"text":"對照人他就會變成是肇事逃逸那甚至這個肇事逃逸離開的人他也不曉得有可能已經構成肇事逃逸或者說他工作忙碌那警方要做筆錄的時候約不到他那後來呢以案子公問為險怎麼樣就移到"},{"start":6024.71,"end":6043.98,"text":"我們檢察官那裡那檢察官說這個屢傳不到啊那就發布通緝啊那通緝之後呢他就構成了我們後續修法的脫逃罪當中可能適用的對象那這種情況之下有可能後來輕微的交通事故可能兩兆也互相找到對方了那就和解了"},{"start":6044.64,"end":6060.542,"text":"和解之後他連交通事故這樣的一個連故意或過失傷害都沒有的情況之下是無罪的情況之下卻因為如果說遇到不同的檢察官都要發布通緝他卻要吃上脫逃罪的官司所以我們在說"},{"start":6061.323,"end":6083.959,"text":"法律的修改呢應該的確有我們要針對的目標那如果能夠針對要打擊的目標很清楚的把它定義出來那麼我們在法條的修訂上避免它傷及無辜在我們日常的生活當中很多民眾都因為我們立法院很急促的修法在修法通過之後才發現到生活大受影響像我剛剛說的所謂的造勢逃逸"},{"start":6087.381,"end":6102.12,"text":"肇事逃逸就是因為發生過一些重大的肇事逃逸案件是會矚目所以當時呢在交通委員會的時候就針對肇事逃逸的部分跟審法委員會就對他的刑責提高那提高之後呢我們就發現很多"},{"start":6104.232,"end":6127.909,"text":"私家車自小客然後跟機車碰撞或機車碰機車有些時候有些駕駛人他甚至連有碰撞到其他的機車或駕駛人他都不知道可是在後來的案件因為所謂的肇事逃逸的關係到後來我們看到肇事逃逸的刑責甚至就有些裁判的律師說肇事逃逸比故意傷害還嚴重"},{"start":6129.21,"end":6157.942,"text":"所以就產生一個很荒謬的現象如果你對某人有仇你開車去撞他可能遭遇到的罪責比你在開車的時候不小心跟人家回到那對方可能機車倒地你沒有注意後來人家叫了救護車你自己開走造勢逃逸比故意傷害還要嚴重所以我再強調的是說希望待會法務部還是要針對這些不同的樣態予以區分對於重大案件的被告交保的被告"},{"start":6158.382,"end":6181.019,"text":"那麼他脫逃了他棄保潛逃我們當然要給予他嚴厲的制裁因為這些是他有相當的利益他才要跑掉嘛但是對於同樣的脫逃罪所刻意對象我的理解認知不知道對不對啦像剛剛我講的那些情況在不知情發布通緝的情況之下後來呢他的本案啊我上次的詢問當中就問過"},{"start":6182.6,"end":6194.9,"text":"我們上次問過說譬如說什麼情況之下會有所謂的被認定是逃亡或者脫逃第一不知道自己被通緝第二無罪判決因為魏道廷被判刑"},{"start":6197.165,"end":6224.268,"text":"本案是無罪判決他想這個這麼輕他就根本沒有道庭也判無罪但是呢因為這樣的關係他有可能被認定是潛逃啊所以我們希望呢在場我們有很多有實務的包括主席本身也是檢察官出身那麼或許主席本身在過去執行檢察官業務的時候你會衡量這些案件的輕重情節您不會率而去發布通緝但是有的律師就會遇到說因為面對的檢察官可能"},{"start":6224.949,"end":6243.361,"text":"案毒牢形案件很多可能只要屢傳不到他可能就發布通緝那後續是不是有適用到161條這樣的脫逃罪的情況以至於他本本罪不成立或本罪呢無罪可是呢卻要吃上脫逃罪的這樣的一個罪責我是覺得這個部分啊其實當我們在訂定法條的時候如果能夠更周延"},{"start":6246.503,"end":6275.666,"text":"其實是有助於我們立法打擊我們要的對象但避免傷及無辜造成普遍人民的一般生活受到干擾我覺得我們修法的目的應該要很清楚的把我們的對象界定出來那在法條的設定上應該將不同的行為樣態做個區隔那麼如果太籠統出招的一個定罪恐怕未來在執行上也是徒增我們檢察官的困擾也增加人民對司法的不信任跟嫌惡那以上的這個部分"},{"start":6276.226,"end":6296.613,"text":"我希望能夠得到主管機關他們的說明跟回應我補充給我30秒補充我現在可能跟各位補充一個點包括剛剛莊委員也有提到就是本罪跟棄保潛逃這兩個的問題我想跟各位報告一下這兩個東西法律侵害不同"},{"start":6297.313,"end":6312.763,"text":"譬如說剛剛莊委員所提到的傷害罪他是個人罰役那棄保潛逃他應該是屬於國家罰役兩者不同就像偽證罪你可能作證的他本行是傷害罪但是偽證是七年以下他本來就會高於原本涉案的那個案子"},{"start":6313.303,"end":6339.901,"text":"你在傷害罪的時候你做一個偽證他還是欺點一下偽證罪是重於原本的那個案子所以我個人認為這兩個東西不能這樣比較譬如說偽證罪他侵害的是國家法益那你傷害罪侵害的是個人法益兩者法益不同你不能拿來同一個地方說原本的案子罪比較輕所以脫逃罪罪比較重這個不對這個邏輯是錯誤的我在這邊可能跟各位委員報告一下小弟個人我的淺見那下一位我們請陳俊宇"},{"start":6344.178,"end":6368.518,"text":"直接請法務部回應那我們就麻煩法務部回應好 關於中委員剛剛的提問法務部簡單的說明如下我們妨礙司法公正罪他到底要處罰的被告的行為是什麼是單純的命令的違反還是要另外加上他有一個逃亡跟藏匿的行為那本部署認為妨礙司法公正罪尤其是偷盜罪 棄保潛逃罪他要處理"},{"start":6370.68,"end":6394.218,"text":"第一個他違反法官或檢察官的命令第二個他客觀上另外必須要有一個逃亡或藏匿的行為這兩者加起來之後才有可能會構成棄保潛到罪所以委員剛剛提到很多的版本他的最後的一個行為是細於我們偵查機關或法院通緝與否來決定他成不成立這個犯罪這會造成一個現象"},{"start":6395.158,"end":6413.512,"text":"被告他也許只是單純的沒有到庭但他什麼都沒有做後面他被成立犯罪是因為檢察官把他通緝是因為法院把他通緝他唯一違反的就是命令的違反他也許沒有逃亡這通緝本身也許是錯誤的也許是每一個檢察官的通緝的理由裁定都不一樣"},{"start":6414.572,"end":6428.889,"text":"所以是以偵查機關或者其他機關或我們一般刑法的理念是以行政機關的決定與否判斷與否來成立刑法上的罪基本上本部認為這個方向是比較不贊同"},{"start":6429.349,"end":6443.978,"text":"所以本部認為這個棄保檢察隊他應該他的客觀行為都必須要有被告一個逃亡或藏匿的行為我們去評價他這個逃亡或藏匿的行為而不是評價檢察官有沒有對他發布通緝以上補充 謝謝"},{"start":6448.81,"end":6477.581,"text":"謝謝主席所以我就覺得剛剛次長的回覆就回應到一般因為剛剛謝謝主席他說在整個法例上侵犯的法例不同但是人民是法感那陳儒剛剛所說的他被通緝而不知情的情況下他有可能是板模工人他一天要為了三餐而忙碌他可能接到了傳票或者他家裡離家而出戶籍沒有遷移那這種情況很有可能因為我們發布通緝而造成他觸犯本罪"},{"start":6478.201,"end":6504.215,"text":"那其實呢 我們就以最近的人 我想請教一下次長就是假設啦 那個橘子還是香蕉啦他就出國旅遊啊 愛玩的小孩啊他就出國旅遊啊 他可能出國旅遊之後呢他就跟國內呢 他向來就不跟國內通訊他也沒有去注意到有什麼國內的新聞發生他甚至連自己發布通信都不知道那有可能這種情況之下他好像也沒有外觀上的隱藏 藏匿行蹤"},{"start":6505.035,"end":6528.776,"text":"或者是刻意的去規避那麼剛剛次長所提到的除了發布通緝之外還有客觀上可顯見的隱匿行蹤或逃避追查這樣的行為那更重要的是目前以剛剛那個案子這個可能目前還在日本停留滯留的這個愛玩的小女孩她搞不好是玩的遊山玩水很開心怎麼後來回國後"},{"start":6529.837,"end":6546.475,"text":"發現呢 全案判定了 她是通緝未到然後呢 她就被處以這個刑責有可能到後來她的證實也證明她根本就是完全不知情啊她是個愛玩的小女孩啊她的其他的時間就幫忙拖拖行李箱啊那行李箱裝了什麼事情她未必有知情啊"},{"start":6547.216,"end":6575.656,"text":"我們必須假設各種可能性啊因為在這種情況之下如果陳如說被告所辯稱的愛文的小女孩幫她打雜 偷個行李箱這種情況之下她排定了旅程到日本去旅遊到那邊之後她使用現在的支付工具因此從外觀上來講我們本國的檢察機關沒有辦法去查到她的行蹤也沒辦法對她訊息去告知然後她好像又看起來在隱匿譬如她使用那個"},{"start":6577.217,"end":6589.296,"text":"電子貨幣我們覺得他在隱匿信用卡這種支付的行為他用這種方式交易那是否就會構成他的這樣的一個觸犯本罪呢我是覺得剛剛的次長的說明是否能更具體一點我們必須針對不同的樣態我們必須來考量以上"},{"start":6593.939,"end":6609.03,"text":"那個次長能夠馬上說明一下我順便問完再讓他一起說明一下你是排第三嘛所以麻煩問完又可以繼續追問的話一個人就可以追問我就是要凸顯你我不堅持啦我只是要告訴你說這樣主持會沒完沒了啦就是說他講完每個人講完以後你又發表你的高見然後講完的人次長講完他又想追問"},{"start":6623.41,"end":6638.853,"text":"原來的提問人 他可以繼續追問反而我又不能追問這就好奇怪 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董事長 董事長董事長 董"},{"start":6651.175,"end":6677.231,"text":"然後跟妨礙司法公正罪 你就認為這個法律不同你們都不曉得 這些案子裡面從在第十屆 第九屆我就一直針對這些概念我就跟你說 學法人完全顛覆掉了如果按照昭和你的講法成立 按照次長你們講法成立的話中華民國大亂了 我們法律就亂定了 為什麼第一個 你說國家法律是最高的 是我們以前從大一開始念的都是這樣 那錯了"},{"start":6683.75,"end":6693.993,"text":"因為你拿出那個概念出來壓人所以我就必須要跟你回應很嚴肅我絕對不是干擾你不是不是我必須要講完沒有如果是他講完的話就不應該是有找你出來教訓人說這個是錯的因為國家法律是高於個人法律不對啊"},{"start":6706.937,"end":6709.94,"text":"我們過去就是一層一層國家法益 社會法益 個人法益 財產法益麻煩次長能夠補充剛中召委的問題那待會兒中委員在陳俊委員結束之後你可以發表一些我就反對了你反對沒關係 那請次長"},{"start":6726.496,"end":6740.641,"text":"不是啊 你為什麼 鍾嘉賓講完你可以講了一大堆啊我現在舉手發言 你讓我發言不然你就不要跟我講 你跟我講一半這樣也比較沒意思啦你跟我講完等一下我節制啦好不好你讓我講完我等一下很節制你一分鐘內可以講完嗎看你講多久我就要講多久啊"},{"start":6745.615,"end":6772.216,"text":"不是你跟我講 因為你講多久我只要告訴你說 你要主持會議 你不可以你就給人家公說 按照流程 你既定的流程來你不是給人家公說 你就開始要牽拖一堆你現在說話不能說所以我說一分鐘內麻煩你好 我把他講完 我一分鐘把他講完我就是說 我們過去講的國家法律 社會法律個人法律到財產法律這個已經在我們整個社會充斥的詐騙以後我們所立的法全部都顛覆掉了"},{"start":6773.168,"end":6789.968,"text":"你說國家你把它顛覆掉 叛亂好重你這個放火社會法律 這個也好重你說個人法律 那沒關係啦 那是兄弟而已 看不懂現在反而我們最注重的就是財產法律我們把行動全部都提高"},{"start":6791.209,"end":6803.12,"text":"所以你剛提那個觀念 我為什麼說你那是錯的啊也許是我們錯的習慣了 錯的習慣了我倒是想聽聽啊 就是說我們把它提高了三倍以後的理由到底是什麼你要講罪質嘛 罪質要相符合嘛我針對原本的問題啊 可是就沒有人來討論這樣的一個問題啊"},{"start":6815.871,"end":6818.033,"text":"實務上我剛剛看到次長在講的理論上都通啦可是不用太拚啦檢察官在實際操作的時候哪會講的那麼多常常會看心情啊有的會認為說你很可惡啊你說什麼叫做潛逃潛逃有非常不確定的法律概念啊"},{"start":6832.628,"end":6835.569,"text":"沒來 有的檢察官認為 沒來沒得有事啊佛心來者 有人認為說 你就離掉你照啦你就是不尊重司法啦 馬上就給你發佈通緝檢察官會有所不同涉案的人處置就會完全得到不同的法律效果這個我是比較不贊同次長剛的一個講法"},{"start":6852.154,"end":6877.852,"text":"因為我們主持會我是比較希望說大家彈性一團和氣之下進行那如果說大家覺得說這樣是不對的一定要所有東西就堅守一秒不能差我也可以這麼做但我的個性比較希望能夠彈性的然後比較大家溫和的對 平和的把會議進行好不好好 那我們麻煩次長能夠盡快說明那次長說明完畢之後我們就請陳俊遠委員發言 謝謝"},{"start":6879.83,"end":6906.97,"text":"如果棄保潛牢罪它的構成要件是以檢察官通緝與否來決定犯罪成立與否的話這會有一個狀況產生就是說這犯罪的成立決定於一個所謂的客觀的處罰條件這客觀的處罰條件是什麼檢察官或法官有沒有對他發布通緝那被告他主觀的犯意就不被論究了他是客觀上有沒有被通緝他是客觀處罰條件那如果我們構成要件把設計成他除了"},{"start":6908.312,"end":6934.013,"text":"違反拒保的規定而不到庭再加上他有逃亡或藏匿的事實的話甲官必須要證明他有逃亡的犯意跟這一個藏匿的事實所以這比較主觀上甲官就負舉證責任所以這個對一個三年以下的罪甚至有些委員提到一年以上欠下的罪這他事實上有必要的因為你用客觀處罰條件去處罰他的話那會由客觀上有沒有通緝這事實就決定他"},{"start":6936.034,"end":6953.939,"text":"他棄保就要犯罪了他唯一做的是什麼他就是拒保之後沒有到庭後來甲官認定他逃亡發布通緝這對被告來講他的權益保障是比較不夠周延所以本部認為還是應該要有他的客觀事實應該有逃亡跟倡議而非通緝"},{"start":6955.895,"end":6980.455,"text":"說主觀翻譯的部分是不是?市長你是說主觀翻譯的部分嗎?還是什麼?我沒有聽清楚就是說我們構成要件如果設計成它必須要有逃亡跟藏匿這個構成要件事實的話檢察官必須要證明它有逃亡跟藏匿的這個主觀翻譯跟客觀事實所以這個舉證責任檢察官他就會尊重好 了解 謝謝那那個下一位我們請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":6983.916,"end":7007.61,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們這20多年來我們台灣發生眾多的棄保潛逃的案例讓各界對於我們司法單位的信心產生動搖但究竟有多少通緝犯下落不明還是不知所蹤我想我們法務部或是司法單位應該都有很明確的一個數據跟名單"},{"start":7010.511,"end":7016.293,"text":"這種情形也並非民進黨執政的時候才會發生這種棄保潛逃在馬政府2008到2016年的時候他執政8年期間我們台灣也共計有212名的藥販逃出國境潛逸在國外多數的這些脫逃的人士"},{"start":7038.7,"end":7062.246,"text":"多半都往中國繼續在那裡逍遙過好日子當然這也包括我們前立委何志輝還有前立委李慶華還有遠航的前董事崔勇還有一位前工種的理事長陳武雄尤其陳武雄他也是脫逃到"},{"start":7063.946,"end":7075.122,"text":"中國去投靠這個之前也是脫逃的這個我們東地氏集團的這個總裁陳友豪在福建我相信這我們都有資料"},{"start":7076.462,"end":7100.605,"text":"那目前我們針對犯罪者棄保潛逃的這種行為我們僅能對於他們的行為沒入保證金即使未來將人棄捕歸案也不會加重刑責因此這種棄保潛逃的行為對於高刑期的這種重大經濟犯罪的"},{"start":7101.266,"end":7125.981,"text":"行為人有相當的吸引力因此對於未來我們要制定這種棄保潛逃罪的構成要件的其明確性還有行度的合理性政策也要兼顧正當性及必要性等等都需要相當謹慎的去思考而且要有更多的討論的機會"},{"start":7129.163,"end":7143.676,"text":"今天看到我們委員會許多委員提出了相對的版本當然我們也期待院版的版本能夠盡快完善的提出"},{"start":7144.697,"end":7159.437,"text":"來符合我們民眾的期待避免這種棄保潛逃的行為持續的發生我相信這也對我們整個國家的發展還有經濟的發展會造成許多的不良的影響以上"},{"start":7161.91,"end":7181.086,"text":"好 謝謝 那我們下一位請莊瑞雄委員好 謝謝張偉我這邊要有一個疑問不管是台灣民眾黨或者羅委員 謝委員他們的一個提案裡面各位不曉得有沒有去思考你像譬如說台灣民眾黨的條文的一個設計跟"},{"start":7183.207,"end":7206.443,"text":"羅委員跟謝委員就不一樣羅委員跟謝委員他有第三項的部分他甚至於認為說逃逆被告涉犯罪輕本刑三年以上有期徒刑而犯第一項罪質去加重期刑這個我都認為你去把它做一個比較的話可能台灣民眾黨的想法就是說刑法本來就是稍微要稍微遷移一下"},{"start":7207.364,"end":7236.112,"text":"我不知道他們設計的邏輯思考是什麼但至少你把它看起來就是人會跑掉 人會跑掉其實這個是天性耶尤其是犯重罪的人他想逃是一個天性那你如果說 你如果說一個案子你檢察官到最後被告如果有倒庭沒有倒庭就不用講了沒有倒庭就跑掉了你根本就沒有辦法跟他論罪跟苛刑"},{"start":7238.052,"end":7241.103,"text":"那如果說如果說他今天"},{"start":7242.574,"end":7271.773,"text":"一個案件裡面他去脫逃了那在檢察官的在論告的時候我相信在最後他一定可能會跟檢察官跟法官講說這個案子因為被告潛逃有脫逃那應該是加重期刑那一個案子在審理的法官他也許也會看到考量綜合各種情況你的犯後的態度但是在新法五十七條裡面其實這些早有規範徒增在這樣的增加這樣的一個規定"},{"start":7273.435,"end":7283.291,"text":"是不是適當這個都可以來再討論第二個就是說我剛剛提到的本來一檔你現在變三檔拉了三倍"},{"start":7288.141,"end":7310.368,"text":"這只因為2017年的一個司法國事會議就把它當成說那個是一個聖旨這個我覺得也未必恰當這個修法來看的話是有一點點民粹那民粹也不是不好如果國民所有的法感法律的感情都認為這些人都是很重的"},{"start":7311.633,"end":7340.736,"text":"那你要把它提高那也可以可是你相去做對應跟其他的條文來看的話是不是我們有沒有去做一個做一個比較因為你接下來161接下來你會牽扯到我們新增的161條之一你拒保折付限制住居的部分還有限制出境那這些你去做比較的話就變成我在公權力機關掌握之下你把我拖逃的人我提高了三倍"},{"start":7341.457,"end":7369.352,"text":"可是我本來就不是在公權力機關的掌握之下我本來就是被限制住居而已或者說我限制出境而已或者說我本來是一個被責負的人拒保當然會比較重那我只是單純被檢察官認為說我反正我有責負給誰那這個就變成會這個整個罪責會比較輕的那你把它161之1跟161全部都三年以下"},{"start":7370.806,"end":7388.641,"text":"這個好像就是整個量刑完全把它標準化可是在整個罪質之間你去做一個比較的話我認為這個是有點輕重失衡這大家再考慮一下謝謝 那我們下一位請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":7404.069,"end":7426.683,"text":"謝謝主席現在討論的階段是大體討論還沒有進入到個別討論我想就大體討論的部分先說一下台灣民眾黨黨團的立場我想徵定妨礙司法公正罪包括了棄保潛逃包括了對於證人不當的騷擾"},{"start":7428.291,"end":7456.91,"text":"包括了不法的關說這個是我們在2024年大選的時候我們所提出來的證件我們既然提了這個證件我們就會履行所以在2024年3月的時候台灣民眾黨黨團針對妨礙司法公正罪我們就已經提出了我們的條文跟版本第二個針對行政院的版本"},{"start":7457.898,"end":7485.369,"text":"我必須要說從我第一次在當立委的時候斯卡國事會議結束了以後針對七寶潛逃針對不法關說這些妨礙司法公正的行為我那個時候大概為了法務部恩賜你們的版本到底什麼時候要拿出來你們的版本到底什麼時候要拿出來在那個時候前法務部的部長"},{"start":7486.846,"end":7512.905,"text":"蔡清祥在面對我質詢的時候說我們的版本已經送到立法院了被我當場抓包根本在說謊版本根本就沒送來我還那個時候質詢我記得很清楚我還請召委把時間停下來要議事人員查清楚什麼時候行政院送氣泡檢查罪的條文到立法院來我竟然會不知道"},{"start":7514.045,"end":7543.002,"text":"結果發現蔡清祥根本就是在說謊一路的延宕一路的拖延到2024年我重新回到立法院第一次我質詢的時候院會總質詢我就問了妨礙司法公正罪棄保檢討不法關說什麼時候條文要送到立法院來跟我說還在研議啊"},{"start":7544.827,"end":7567.275,"text":"不斷的研議新的部長第一次到社會法治委員會來備選的時候我問一樣的問題還是在研議請問台灣社會要等法務部多久要等行政院多久等到天荒地老等到海枯石爛"},{"start":7568.854,"end":7597.583,"text":"你們不送條文來我們不能處理那是不是代表以後永遠都不要處理有這種道理喔有這種道理喔這如果今天是新的事情新的條文新的概念新的法案你這樣講或許有道理啊整整拖了七年欸拖七年還不夠什麼時候立法院變成只要行政部門不提版本"},{"start":7598.703,"end":7616.174,"text":"我們法案就不適合處理那這樣豈不給你們行政部門擺爛的權利拖延的權利鬼混的權利版本不送來是要法治不能處理哪有這種事情啦換了多久啦第三個"},{"start":7625.208,"end":7643.94,"text":"針對剛剛有委員說什麼本屆世華法制什麼過當干預司法我老實講我是聽不懂啊因為本屆世華法制委員會的委員就我所知啊沒有人打電話去給法務部部長喬啊不要針對他個人訴訟係數的案件啊提起上訴啊沒有立法委員幹這種事啊有嗎如果有等一下請部長說明一下"},{"start":7657.557,"end":7681.848,"text":"本屆世話法治委員會的委員就我所知啊也沒有像邱泰山一樣去約桃園地檢署的檢察長到大車輪吃日本料理回去施壓基層的檢察官當逃稅5億的大亨開啟認罪協商沒有發生這樣的事啊"},{"start":7687.898,"end":7710.747,"text":"本屆司法法治委員會的委員我也沒有看到有率眾去踹法務部部長大門的啊這些事情我通通都沒有看到啊對司法權的行使我們請記得一個原則啊司法權的行使有他自己專業獨立的要求但不是免於公眾監督啊"},{"start":7712.441,"end":7739.609,"text":"司法權的行使不是免於公眾監督啊我舉一個最簡單的例子就好了2022年的時候美國聯邦最高法院把在1973年所成立劃時代的判決Roy vs Wade把女性的墮胎權給限縮掉了那個時候多少人跑去聯邦最高法院前面抗議啊"},{"start":7742.998,"end":7755.063,"text":"連前美國總統對不起他還不是前他還是現任的美國總統還沒有辦交接拜登直接延遲批評不是2022年批評2024年繼續批評公開的講這樣的聯邦最高法院必須要被改革對司法權的公眾監督本來就是在一個民主憲政的法治國家下面公民應該行使的權利"},{"start":7772.728,"end":7778.01,"text":"我怎麼沒有聽過有人在批評到聯邦最高法院前面針對Vs."},{"start":7778.01,"end":7780.191,"text":"Wade去抗議的民眾說他們在干預司法說他們在強迫司法不要把不同的概念放在妨礙司法公正罪的脈絡裡面來討論只會一笑大方啊"},{"start":7797.062,"end":7816.259,"text":"真的只會一笑大方啊讓社會大眾啊 嚴重的懷疑啊本院司法法治委員會的委員是不是連現在在討論什麼法案在討論什麼罪名他的罪職是什麼要保護的法義是什麼連這種基本的法律概念都欠缺基本的理解第三個部分啊剛剛"},{"start":7823.86,"end":7848.877,"text":"次長坐在這邊的說明說法務部的立場如何如何法務部的立場如何如何我老實講我有點聽不懂我想要請教部長跟次長2019年法務部送院的條文你們有沒有看過你如果有看過的話你今天還坐在這邊做這樣的發言那我就有第二個問題了召委我要求的權利跟其他委員一樣"},{"start":7851.543,"end":7875.618,"text":"剛在我發言之前我現在是第一次發言我前面為了會議主持的順暢我一句話都沒有講那如果其他委員有詢問官員在大體討論有詢問官員的權利那就請法務部講清楚從2019年以後到現在你們法務部有沒有送新的版本給行政院如果有的話現在印出來給大家"},{"start":7878.527,"end":7905.282,"text":"如果有的話現在印出來給大家因為當你在說法務部的立場的時候我完全聽不懂我完全聽不懂我為什麼說我完全聽不懂你們2019年9月17號法務部抱怨的版本然後我們來看一下我先從最基本的啦先從最基本的ABC開始講啦脫逃罪現在我們的刑法是一年以下嘛"},{"start":7906.445,"end":7931.178,"text":"那為什麼要提高到三年以下刑度太輕了嘛日本刑法就三年以下嘛你們今年夏天送來本院的報告你也跟所有的立委講啊脫逃罪 三年以下有期徒刑跟你們法務部的立場是一致的嘛我國的脫逃罪 法定刑太低討論了很久了啦討論了非常久了"},{"start":7934.201,"end":7963.061,"text":"所以從思改國事會議以後法務部向來立場才會一直主張我們應該要跟日本刑法的脫逃罪一樣定到三年以下有期徒刑嘛針對這一點我有沒有說錯請法務部列為第一個問題回答第二個問題你們在2019年9月17號抱怨的第十章之一妨礙司法公正罪章的草案有沒有報新的條文上去有還是沒有"},{"start":7964.195,"end":7985.845,"text":"如果有的話等一下請印給大家看這不是國家機密啊這不會妨礙到台灣的國防也不會妨礙到台灣的外交如果有的話印給大家看第三個問題來你看一下你們2019年9月17號報佈的條文是怎麼寫的"},{"start":7991.307,"end":8013.379,"text":"172條之一被告受拒保則附獲限制諸局經合法傳喚無正當理由不到庭就可以處三年以下有期徒刑了所以現在法務部見解變更了是不是見解變更了什麼時候變更了透過什麼程序變更了為什麼今天次長坐在這邊所講的話跟法務部當初報部的抱怨的條文長得完全不一樣"},{"start":8014.96,"end":8029.168,"text":"我再念一次啊被告受拒保責負或限制駐居經合法強化無證當理由不到庭處三年以下有期徒刑這是你們法務部啊當初抱怨的版本當初法務部抱怨的版本是因為民粹嗎"},{"start":8031.092,"end":8048.349,"text":"是因為對刑法基本理論欠缺認識嗎是因為沒有深思熟慮嗎是因為隨便寫一寫嗎如果不是的話當初為什麼報這個條文到行政院今天的見解是不是有改變為什麼坐在這邊講的話"},{"start":8049.93,"end":8060.893,"text":"跟當初法務部在刑法研修小組研修了半天以後抱怨的條文所採取的立場完全不一致這個是第三個部分的問題請法務部一併回答"},{"start":8063.988,"end":8079.058,"text":"好 那我們就依照剛剛的做法我們就請法務部直接回答好 謝謝好 跟方委員報告那108年9月報行政院版本我們脫逃罪的確是當時的草案是三年以下是沒有問題但是在行政院審查的過程當中經過了11次的審查"},{"start":8082.921,"end":8107.143,"text":"在這11次審查裡面各方對這個傷害司法公正罪他非常多的各方的意見包括罪名也好 構成要件也好 相關的規範都有一些討論所以這個版本是經過11次行政院會討論之後綜合各方的意見之後所出來的一個初步的一個見解那另外委員提到我們本部有沒有正式報公文"},{"start":8107.463,"end":8117.767,"text":"不好意思我提一下齁你說經過11次討論了以後經過11次討論以後的版本現在在哪裡?他是在行政院審查的對嘛啊你說嘛經過討論了是修了11次嗎?"},{"start":8124.065,"end":8137.25,"text":"現在最新的版本現在在哪裡?畢竟本部已經送到行政院嘛你說本部送到行政院指的是2019年嘛那我們就一件事情一件事情講清楚嘛"},{"start":8138.619,"end":8164.441,"text":"現在我剛我在跟你討論的第一個基準是你們2019年送給行政院的版本嘛那你現在的解釋是說到行政院修了很多次嘛那我現在就請教你們行政院修到最後的版本現在在哪裡現在在行政院嗎可以提供給本委員會的委員參考嗎這個因為行政院的執掌我本部沒有辦法帶他回答所以這個是行政院的執掌嗎你們有沒有派人去行政院參加這個會議當然有"},{"start":8166.994,"end":8188.007,"text":"那所以你們手上沒有這個版本?這個最終決定行政院版本它畢竟是商機機關它要送出委員會它必須...第二個部分你們法務部到目前為止有送新的版本進去給行政院嗎?因為11次過程當中它會不斷的修正那有沒有一個正式的公文就還要再查它不斷的修正...沒有關係啊 那就請你回去查就請你回去查盡速回覆啊盡速回覆啊"},{"start":8197.816,"end":8220.821,"text":"法務部的立場到底是什麼說清楚講明白本委員會的委員我們在立法審議的過程當中會尊重你們的意見會聽你們的聲音所以才會看你們七月的時候交一份報告一月的時候交一份報告嘛立法院在審議的時候為什麼要法務部繳報告"},{"start":8223.922,"end":8245.454,"text":"你們所有的意見都應該寫在這報告裡啊讓委員在會前就可以充分的閱讀啊不用坐到這邊的時候重新詢問你們法務部的立場是什麼嗎一個立法委員坐在這邊審法案以前行政機關的報告長什麼樣子寫什麼東西立場是什麼要先看嘛"},{"start":8250.953,"end":8262.497,"text":"看完了以後 知道你們的想法 知道你們的立場是尊重你們行政機關表達意見的機會跟權利最後立法的決斷還是要立法委員來做嘛好 謝謝大家就再麻煩法務部能夠照剛剛要求處理那我們下一位請審法會委員發言主席各位同仁"},{"start":8281.175,"end":8288.873,"text":"我想我們今天就這個相關的這些刑法部分條件修正的這些草案"},{"start":8290.717,"end":8312.133,"text":"其實我們大概就是幾個部分,這個大家所提的這麼多版本,以及包括今天才後來又補題的幾個版本大概就是針對氣保潛逃,針對妨礙司法公正,另外針對不法關說等等這些,提出這些刑法的修正"},{"start":8313.803,"end":8316.45,"text":"事實上剛大家都提,從2017年到現在2017年司法國事會議到現在"},{"start":8322.524,"end":8344.081,"text":"這個已經經過七年的時間了那這七年的時間剛才在在這個大力討論其他委員的的發言中大概也呈現出來這個事實上從法務部這個抱怨2019年抱怨之後事實上也經過我個人了解剛剛提到經過11次的經過11次的這個演商會議的那這個其實"},{"start":8350.606,"end":8371.572,"text":"司法國事會議做出了這樣子的一個結論就是說應該要訂定這個棄保潛逃的這個罪責必須應該要做這個妨礙司法公正的這些罪行但是問題是據我了解這樣子的所謂棄保潛逃相關的這些規定它其實是"},{"start":8372.759,"end":8401.356,"text":"是英美法系的一個概念其實這個不知道,如果我講的不對,法務部可以糾正我這個棄保潛逃他的罪責事實上他的起源是來自於英美法系的概念因為在這個大陸法系裡面這個有一個不知正己罪的一個原則所以因此在他就交保本身他就是一個責任的"},{"start":8404.537,"end":8428.648,"text":"這個保釋金本身就是一個責任的苛責所以這個所謂棄保潛逃它沒有在大陸法系原本它的理論體系裡面是沒有這個那這樣子的當然現在其他有許多國家大陸法系他們也陸續漸漸的把它放進這個棄保潛逃這樣子的概念那這個但是畢竟它是不同的法律體系概念的納入"},{"start":8430.607,"end":8457.679,"text":"要納入一個不同法律體系的概念因此裡面確實在這整個過程裡面包括對於它的許多構成要件包括對於它的許多罪責這些都會有相當多的討論空間這也是我們今天看到這麼多的版本其實我們看到今天這麼多委員所提案的黨團所提案的這些版本事實上本身從立法體系本身就非常的不同意因為它不是一個有範本"},{"start":8459.502,"end":8486.191,"text":"的一個有範本可供參考的一個立法體系所以各個版本它本身的立法體系本身就有很多的不同這是第一點第二點這裡面的這些構成要件我看了也有很多包括我們法務部剛剛的報告也提到裡面確實有很多不確定的法律概念在裡面在這些委員的提案或黨團提案裡面這些部分我們"},{"start":8487.475,"end":8501.725,"text":"作為提案是可以啦但是我們要經過立法通過這些不確定的法律概念這個是要相當的審酌另外就是也因為這個是新訂的罪證因此他所有的這些裡面這個"},{"start":8504.653,"end":8525.729,"text":"不同的行為態樣、構成要件它的這些罪行相當的原則其實裡面有很多漢格有一些刑法各罪之間的這些刑度的橫平事實上並沒有掌握的在各個版本裡面也都不一樣掌握的也不是很精確諸如此類的這些問題我個人是認為說"},{"start":8532.674,"end":8558.821,"text":"如果我們今天我們立法院我們要負責任的我們司法法治委員會要通過這個立法今天以我們今天在場這些委員大家就每一個委員可能都有自己已經有提案有很多委員有自己有提案他對於自己的版本的看法就我們今天這幾個委員大家來討論這些這麼多的包括裡面有不確定的法律概念包括裡面有一些罪行"},{"start":8559.955,"end":8579.958,"text":"橫平的失衡的問題這些問題我個人是認為說在今天一天的會議裡面這樣來討論這個東西我個人認為非常的危險那我也不希望說今天出委員會之後最後我們的立法方式又是在最後要二讀表決之前才能再拿到一個大家所不曾看過的修正動議"},{"start":8581.328,"end":8595.686,"text":"然後再依修正統以來通過這種最惡劣的立法程序我個人認為這種法律的立法我認為不應該再用這樣的方式來進行所以我具體的建議其實像我講說這些"},{"start":8597.335,"end":8614.754,"text":"像這個我們在講到這個司法關說罪這裡面對於大家每一個人條文裡面有不法關說有以不正當的行為不正當方法行關說或講脫責等等這些我覺得都不是都不是確定的法律概念啊而且都沒有定義大概只有我們主席"},{"start":8615.695,"end":8634.234,"text":"在立法說明裡面有特別針對不法官說有做了一個定義那這個定義也讓我覺得很疑惑啦這個我們主席的定義是說所謂不法官說是細指運用其職務或身份地位之實質影響力使該等人員為積極作為或消極之不作為"},{"start":8635.458,"end":8650.085,"text":"那這個運用其職務及身份地位實行影響力這個個人進行這個叫做這個處局把他定義叫不法關說那聚眾勒?聚眾實行叫什麼?這種跨度定顧忌這個又叫什麼?這個罪行有要定義嗎?所以這樣子的"},{"start":8660.567,"end":8680.472,"text":"這麼多的不確定法律概念在這個立法過程裡面我個人是建議雖然這個司法國事會議在2017年他所做出的是一個原則認為說應該要訂定這個這個細胞潛逃應該要訂定這個妨礙司法的這些相關罪責但是當我們條文出來我們真的要立法之前我個人認為這這麼多的這些問題應該我們還是應該要召開"},{"start":8684.229,"end":8699.436,"text":"公聽會讓各界來幫忙我們立法委員來檢視這些條文裡面的問題包括這整個立法體系大家每個人提的版本立法體系都不同我相信透過公聽會的方式讓更多司法學者在"},{"start":8700.436,"end":8704.74,"text":"跟實務參與者在在我們目前的提案當中來檢視這些問題能夠讓我們司法法治委員會再做出最後我們的決定我不管法務部有沒有版本我們當然是可以就現在目前委員的提案來來進行討論但是這些提案我認為應該要經過"},{"start":8719.716,"end":8742.318,"text":"社會這些學者跟司法實務者大家共同的檢視我認為說這樣子的公聽會是真的是必要的這個我良心的建議本委員會也良心的建議主席能夠在這個我們立法之前就這些條文我們來進行一個公聽會包括讓大家來檢視這裡面是不是這個不同的立法體系到底是哪一個立法體系比較適當"},{"start":8743.699,"end":8758.608,"text":"讓大家共同的意見來針對裡面的這些一些不確定的法律概念針對裡面的一些相當罪行的這個橫評來做一些各方意見的表示能夠讓我們立法真的更周延以上謝謝 那下面我們請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":8764.884,"end":8790.803,"text":"首先我要謝謝我們吳宗憲召委今天做一個讓我覺得稍微有點公道的一個主持因為才在上次的我們宗嘉賓的召委在主持的時候我跟翁曉琳委員在問司法院的官員代表然後問一個非常簡單的問題只有YES NO就可以回答的問題其實我們宗嘉賓召委就是一定要說要等到後面的委員問完才可以問"},{"start":8791.864,"end":8807.619,"text":"所以我要特別講,我今天謝謝吳宗憲、趙偉今天就非常公正、中立委員本來很多問題不懂、不了解,需要在深入的跟官員探討那提問的時候,其實趙偉跟主席是要協助讓委員去釐清問題"},{"start":8809.941,"end":8833.833,"text":"而不是說今天為了護航為了什麼樣其他個人的因素來去阻攔今天委員的一個跟官員的溝通跟提問那我覺得真的謝謝我們的吳宗憲召委我覺得這樣才是一個好的主持方式那接下來我就要講說我們潘國昌委員剛剛講很多東西我認同但有一件事情那我就要把它再釐清得更清楚"},{"start":8834.773,"end":8860.611,"text":"他說本屆的司法委員會沒有成員去不法關說司法去關說司法我想我們黃國昌委員是給柯建民總召面子柯建民總召就是最有名的關說司法的代表人物這是為什麼今天我要特別提出這件事情"},{"start":8861.843,"end":8887.942,"text":"左七年右七年拖了七年還要再七年嗎不管要辦公聽會還是要等行政院版本如果今天這個不法關說罪今天棄保潛逃罪是今天我們在這邊突然跟石猴子碰出來的一個idea想法說我們今天就是要過那你跟我講要公聽會很好啊就公聽會啊"},{"start":8888.956,"end":8914.061,"text":"那你跟我講說要等行政院版本很好啊 就等行政院版本是嗎 不是吧蔡英文總統任內的司法國事會這麼浩浩蕩蕩 盛盛大大的司法國事會議針對這兩件事情都有非常廣泛的討論做出兩個決定 決議就是要有七法檢討罪跟妨害司法公正罪啊"},{"start":8915.271,"end":8943.506,"text":"七年過去不動如山然後現在跟我講說不夠成熟我們還要再等再等再等那我想請問你是要等70年嗎所以不要再找脫的藉口我直接幫大家翻譯成大白話啦今天關說司法的記錄者一個就是我們柯建民總召啊為了自己的案子關說檢察官不要上訴啊最後無罪確定啊第二個有名的例子就是邱泰山啊"},{"start":8944.551,"end":8970.956,"text":"邱太三就是也是在當過法務部長邱太三也還去關說司法第三有名例子剛剛我們這個黃國昌委員也點到還有人去踹法務部長大門不就是邱毅英所以我要跟各位說今天在這邊真的拜託啦理由藉口用光光以後就不要再拖了啦台灣司法不受信任"},{"start":8972.406,"end":8980.574,"text":"就是因為有像柯建民、有像邱太三這樣一個運用自己的權力關係然後去針對檢察機關關說的一個權貴存在"},{"start":8990.137,"end":9014.169,"text":"今天台灣為什麼很多棄保潛逃人家之前爆發的不管是林秉文還是其他很多的一些案子對我們的綠色權貴或跟綠色關係很好的一些不管詐騙犯還是說今天是貪污犯都可以棄保潛逃因為你們就是開了一扇門給大家棄保潛逃所以換言之今天在這邊"},{"start":9016.127,"end":9041.374,"text":"超越黨派不要再有所謂的一堆藉口跟理由如果要證明今天不是為了護航綠色那請今天我們就不要再拖了該通過早就該通過的棄保潛逃罪跟早就該通過的防害司法公正罪今天就讓它成為我們司法的一個里程碑讓我們司法贏回尊嚴跟贏回他的公信力謝謝好 謝謝那下一位我們請吳思堯委員發言"},{"start":9046.158,"end":9067.188,"text":"好 謝謝剛剛志祥委員誇讚了中間召委那不好意思 我在持反方向我還是要說 今天的時間是1月6號星期一那如果以這個會期 原定的秀會時間是1月21號"},{"start":9069.605,"end":9083.641,"text":"那因為韓國瑜院長要接受總統的指派到美國去川普的就任所以也有可能要在1月15號來休會換言之我們的總預算剩下最後一個禮拜的時間"},{"start":9085.103,"end":9099.688,"text":"我要再次說如果今天我們就進行交委的排案優先就法務部的預算現在來審查早上9點到11點我們大概已經有相當大的進展"},{"start":9101.141,"end":9117.659,"text":"因為每一天我們作為黨編每一天在算時間今天下午韓國瑜院長主持的朝野協商為什麼沒有辦法排入總預算的協商就因為司法法治委員會還沒有把預算送出去"},{"start":9118.82,"end":9133.731,"text":"所以這是我每天在跟時間分秒必爭我們今天當然妨礙司法公正罪或是棄保檢討罪要修法我們都可以討論但是對一個還沒有行政院版"},{"start":9134.511,"end":9160.747,"text":"而且院版出來還要彙嫌司法院連這個共識性都還沒有的法案然後今天我們這麼多時間大家還在做很多沒有辦法聚焦的討論那在議案排審的選擇上我真的覺得很遺憾因為我也不想我們是司法法治委員我們要擔起說我們是最後一個送出總預算讓總預算延宕審查跟協商大家都承擔不起啊"},{"start":9161.707,"end":9183.969,"text":"所以我還是呼籲這個召委的排案如果今天我們優先進行法務部的預算審議我相信都會相對的有進程有進展也不會影響院會的期程那講回這個今天講的法案我覺得這是一個兩難我非常同意"},{"start":9185.28,"end":9208.299,"text":"鍾瑞雄委員說的 刑責的遷移原則 不要任意去擴張範圍我也非常同意 審法會委員說的現在提出來的七個版本充滿了太多不確定的法律概念所以對於棄保潛逃罪的怎麼定 它確實是一個兩難你對於重罪 對於輕罪 你的選擇"},{"start":9210.1,"end":9234.069,"text":"比例原則在哪裡你對於輕罪或者是對於冤案的被告來講如果你的棄保譴責對你沒有搭配這個除罪條款或者是補償的機制那麼真的很多當事人他輕罪他最後是被獲得平反的時候可是你已經沒有辦法補償他了"},{"start":9235.054,"end":9264.423,"text":"所以這是配套的制度所以對輕罪來講棄保潛逃罪的刑責會失去了他的比例原則但對於重罪來講現在我們最高三年刑期的這個修法的這個這個天花板恐怕又不痛不癢所以這是一個兩難需要充分再更對話更聚焦而且我要講不是只有大家都在為難法務部的版本什麼時候送行政院行政院什麼時候送出來不要忘了還要會嫌司法院"},{"start":9266.185,"end":9286.56,"text":"這當中的共識性那在野黨委員今天在這個會議上我都覺得平行時空耶今天把思改國是會議講得奉為歸逆那過去我們在討論其他的議案譬如說憲法法庭的這個這個原額這個憲法解釋的這個比例"},{"start":9287.847,"end":9297.802,"text":"要幾位才能夠算他事先成立為什麼又跟過去思改國事會議的結論在野黨的立場又不一樣"},{"start":9299.031,"end":9324.144,"text":"所以私改活式會議一下子把它捧得如此之高一下子完全釋之於這個完全不予理會我覺得這種說法也實在是非常沒有原則所以說我們在討論這個法案刑期的天花板氣泡潛逃罪的天花板或是地板怎麼定才合理我覺得今天在場的每一個位立委沒有人可以說得準"},{"start":9326.325,"end":9344.003,"text":"他的比例原则确实你很难去横平的去处理他那我另外刚刚讲的人权上的疑虑如果对于轻罪的人你对于除罪条款对于补偿机制也没有一并去思维的话这样子的修法真的都是挂一漏万"},{"start":9344.944,"end":9360.551,"text":"那講回一個更大的範圍防害司法公正罪裡頭除了棄保潛逃罪你另外的司法關說罪恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪之外的湮滅證據罪今天沒有人提出來啊"},{"start":9361.417,"end":9388.864,"text":"所以整個完整的我覺得大家不要挖東牆補西牆然後眼前補這一塊而欠缺了一個全官的修法該有的一個最大的那個思維這個都是我們要思考的好 回到妨礙司法公正罪裡頭像我就一直認為現在民眾黨的版本對於法定程序外對法官或檢察官為不法官說者對啊"},{"start":9389.42,"end":9409.955,"text":"这是非常不确定的法律概念刚刚我们发会委员讲了非常多那为什么只对于惩判法官跟检察官的不法官说你要定那对于惩判法官或检察官的长官进行了如同有官说一样的效用的"},{"start":9410.939,"end":9426.894,"text":"譬如說請託施壓譬如說立委在審預算的時候或是排專案報告的方式或是用臨時提案的方式去干預了司法個案的審判偵辦這算不算一併要納入妨害司法公正罪的範圍"},{"start":9428.946,"end":9445.557,"text":"這個都要來思維跟思量啊所以再次希望這些東西沒有辦法今天我們在場這幾位來清楚的就很兩難的可能違反比例原則的是沒有完整配套的來做出一個很好的定奪我們要這麼粗糙嗎"},{"start":9447.233,"end":9462.073,"text":"要这么为修而修吗要修就真的好好的修好而不是修了一部分来引发其他的疑虑跟困难所以我还是希望公听会我们需要"},{"start":9463.476,"end":9489.403,"text":"等待行政院的版本會嫌司法院共同的主張我們需要參照這才是讓我們進入條文裡頭讓我們的修法的參照更完備也更有力也不會失之偏頗更不會流於政黨的意氣之爭我再次希望主席我們是不是這個議題就應當打住我們來審預算好不好"},{"start":9490.163,"end":9511.141,"text":"剛好今天坐在這也是法務部長嘛你的預算還沒開始審嘛我們就來審預算吧要不然全部沒有辦法進入預算協商然後最後是因為司法法治委員會沒有送出預算我的天啊我相信審預算你們應當也都準備好了吧為什麼不審預算呢禮拜四排了來 司民剛好在這裡"},{"start":9512.406,"end":9539.184,"text":"今天因為如果15號要休會如果15號要休會好那如果沒有就算21號休會的話你一樣你排這個禮拜四才審法務部的預算審完一次還不一定能審完你審完還要送出審查報告然後要整理文書然後整理議案再送到朝野協商你只剩下下一週假設不是15號休會但是韓院長似乎蠻期待15號休會的"},{"start":9542.686,"end":9566.02,"text":"所以我們在跟時間賽跑,為什麼不把眼前該做的功課先寫好呢?我每天,我們做黨編,私名委員跟我一樣嘛,我們的思維都是希望趕快進入預算的協商,現在都沒辦法啊。所以為什麼不把這個時間,大家預算提案,各個委員,各黨委員都提出具體的提案,我相信法務部都已經準備好了啊。"},{"start":9566.516,"end":9589.272,"text":"就來審預算啊對不對 趙偉 你拜是太晚了拜是太晚了 這樣真的我們黨別來不及協商預算喔我們現在在打理討論的部分不是預算好嗎 我還是要說我一開始就說這個排案真的是這個priority真的要好好思量一下啦好 謝謝委員好 那這樣喔我們要登記對 要登記"},{"start":9590.359,"end":9612.655,"text":"因為我們沒有接著登記,所以林委員可以來登記我們現在宣告一個,因為法務部部長有先說他待會有要務所以早上我已經同意他11點可以先離開由次長在現場繼續回答大家委員的問題這是第一個第二個就是,因為剛剛那個委員有提到幾個點"},{"start":9614.156,"end":9634.998,"text":"所以我這邊主持會議的部分因為是這樣預算審查我們是排在本週四就會審查那如果認為說這個週四週一議程要對調其實上個禮拜五可以跟我講因為我們上禮拜五就已經發出來通知了嘛那如果認為四跟一要對調我也沒有意見我跟議長你會聽嗎"},{"start":9636.639,"end":9650.564,"text":"那我今天講你聽啊我上禮拜五跟你講你會聽嗎那我現在主張要不要來調整一下我們今天都已經進行到上午了你上個禮拜五跟我講的話你不能現在想說你上個禮拜五講我不會聽啊對不對"},{"start":9653.201,"end":9666.977,"text":"我們不要去說上禮拜五講會不會停就是說如果各位對於我這邊安排的議程順序有意見可以在我公告的時候趕快跟我講然後我來趕緊變更這個沒有問題我一直都希望會議進行能夠和諧所以"},{"start":9670.1,"end":9688.221,"text":"因為上個禮拜我訂完之後並沒有人跟我提所有這個問題所以我就是照著這個議程來走更何況今天也都沒有準備相關的資料那還有就是剛剛有提到那個法務部因為吳委員剛剛可能不在現場因為我們為什麼今天會推這個法案是因為"},{"start":9689.662,"end":9711.836,"text":"108年就已經送到行政院那到現在已經五年了所以因為五年這個時間這麼長所以我們才會認為說那既然沒有要提就由我們立法委員盡責的為這個社會去提這個法案所以我想應該不是不是這個這個問題啦那剛那個委員還有提到一個就是法官檢察官的長官接受官說的話沒有"},{"start":9712.777,"end":9741.602,"text":"沒有責任這個部分其實我的修正動議已經有把這個這一塊是有的好那這個部分也是很謝謝法務部這段時間給我們的資料所以後來我修正動議也覺得好那我們應該是把這個範圍更加擴張所以跟國務委員報告一下這部分我修正動議其實有在裡面好那下一位我們請林思明委員發言好謝謝我想召會真的很辛苦眼睛前陣子才那個"},{"start":9744.303,"end":9769.898,"text":"這個開刀現在馬上又來開會真的很辛苦那我想預算的問題呢我先回應一下那個施堯的這個說要審預算我想我們議程都排得很清楚剛才張維也講得很清楚預算就是在星期四那我們大家在星期四就好好在就法務部的預算來做討論今天排定的議程就是這個有關於棄保減逃罪以及司法關稅罪"},{"start":9770.979,"end":9789.223,"text":"那當然剛剛大家提了很多說這一次的修法會不會太充滿或怎麼樣我想剛才我們已經充分的說了委員充分表達意見這個法案棄保潛逃罪或者是司法這個關說罪呢這個都已經可以說從2017到現在已經多久了"},{"start":9793.362,"end":9797.189,"text":"所以我想各界的意見其實都有很多的意見在我們隨時都可以採集得到"},{"start":9803.547,"end":9829.607,"text":"那剛才審判委員有提到說這個不法關說到底他的類型或者是要講他的類型到底是怎麼樣他是一個不確定的法律概念其實我想各位委員大家都非常了解其實法律他不可能把整個類型把它規範得很清楚他只能有一個一般的一個就是一般性的一個規範我們立法者就立出一個一般性的規範然後"},{"start":9831.508,"end":9859.281,"text":"再由法官或者檢察官針對各個實際上發生的犯罪類型他們來做這個認定所以我想這個講說不法官說這四個字其實我個人認為不會造成未來檢察官或者法官在審判或者在起訴的時候造成說有所謂的這個無所適從的這樣一個情況發生所以這部分我想我們立法者"},{"start":9860.422,"end":9877.404,"text":"把這個不法官說把它定義就是把它在文字上面說所謂的有對法官或檢察官或者他監督的長官為不法官說這樣的一個文字的敘述我個人認為這個不會是不確定的法律概念"},{"start":9878.385,"end":9897.322,"text":"那各方剛才大家的疑慮說對於說檢察官或者法官的長官監督長官為不法官說是不是也應該包括在內那剛才召委的修正動議也很清楚的把這一部分也已經把它做修正動議了所以這方面的疑慮也沒有了"},{"start":9898.263,"end":9924.965,"text":"所以我認為如果我們要把這個不法關說罪我們要盡速立法讓我們的司法能夠更公正我個人是覺得各位委員我們不要再拖了我們大家可以透過今天的一個審查盡速的給他送出委員會我們盡速完成二讀跟三讀另外就這個妨礙司法的妨礙司法這一部分就那個"},{"start":9925.686,"end":9949.659,"text":"所謂的這個棄保潛逃這部分那我想我們增訂了對於說這個金命拒保責負限制住居限制出境或限制出海的逃亡隱匿行為這個就是過去一直沒有規範到的雖然法務部對這個刑度認為說跟我們的脫逃罪一樣因為親愛的法律類型不一致這樣的立法是不是適宜"},{"start":9952.104,"end":9958.986,"text":"我會做這樣的一個立法呢,我覺得說,其實你說它現在的法例不一樣,但是把它一樣規範在161條第一項裡面,去把它納入"},{"start":9968.409,"end":9988.908,"text":"我覺得這個其實跟棄保潛逃罪還是有它的關聯性雖然現在的法律看起來是有點不一樣但是一樣把它納入我不曉得法律為什麼反對但是立法體力我覺得並沒有說不適宜的地方如果我們要把這個棄保潛逃罪進入這種類型"},{"start":9991.91,"end":10015.624,"text":"補足 盡速的完成二讀三讀我覺得這應該是可以在今天就可以把討論完成了所以我想我們大家不要再拖了這個反正等太久了所以希望大家都要齊力來支持讓這個不管是棄跑減逃或者妨礙司法公正這兩個罪盡速完成立法以上"},{"start":10019.244,"end":10031.785,"text":"好 謝謝 那這樣我們等一下要不要進行第二輪的 大家也好好 那進行第二輪 那因為我們現在剛剛那個務委員有說我們休息五分鐘 大家要協調一下那我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":10363.293,"end":10367.796,"text":"那我們就繼續開始,那我們現在進行第二輪,那再麻煩登記發言"},{"start":10393.356,"end":10393.737,"text":"我們就請鍾昭偉進行發言謝謝主席"},{"start":10402.742,"end":10423.616,"text":"那我們社會法治委員會真的是相當的認真雖然前面有委員也提到說我們的預算審查這個預算會期的確沒有料到有這麼多的重要法案要審查那在這裡也跟我們主席做個分享因為事實上在本會期當中有限的討論時間"},{"start":10425.197,"end":10443.653,"text":"那至少就我負責的部分的預算都能夠如期的交付所以有餘裕進行包括稅務行政事件審理法等這些攸關民生重大的法案事實上我們本委員會在上個會期就是去年的4月到"},{"start":10445.114,"end":10463.766,"text":"七月的之間我們也就包括像保單抵稅這樣的重大關係社會民生的問題也充分的跟司法院做了一些協調那也很欣慰的能夠得到包括司法院跟金管會的"},{"start":10465.219,"end":10493.38,"text":"去共同處理那目前呢陸陸續續在經委員那邊即將有保險法的修法要進行那我之所以提出這些意思是說今天呢只要是涉及到民生重大的法案我們委員會一定責無旁貸的要相當用心的來審理那麼在我們本會期索性包括運動部的成立因為跟教育委員會聯席我們也協助完成了包括行政院組織法"},{"start":10494.341,"end":10519.258,"text":"中央行政機關基準法等以及幾個組織法都已經通過了那我是很懇切的希望今天我們對於眾所關注的社會重大刑事案件那對於包括棄保潛逃其實應該整個來講我看到這些修正條文的內容是整體來講是妨礙司法公正那妨礙司法公正不單只是一個棄保潛逃"},{"start":10525.061,"end":10549.109,"text":"氣保是一個前提那氣保之前氣保一定有一個發布通緝的一個處分然後潛逃要有外觀上必須去藏匿或者是說這些逃亡的事實那在這樣的氣保潛逃的規範之下會不會有其他我們剛剛所交換的意見其他的"},{"start":10551.15,"end":10574.868,"text":"不要說輕罪啦就是其他的相對在我們一般生活當中會遭遇到的譬如說像車禍事故引發的傷害譬如說像肇事逃逸引發的這些相關的案件那這都是在我們民眾生活當中相當常遇見的那麼如果說我們能夠在這個過程當中將所有的所謂包括棄保潛逃在內棄保之後他的發布通緝以及有潛逃的客觀外在的"},{"start":10581.457,"end":10603.848,"text":"舉證那麼才會去嚴格化他後續罪行的啟動我想這個會比較完整那另外在談到的就是所謂妨礙司法公正那剛剛在之前的發言當中我們本席也針對法務部希望說了解到法務部過去已經在行政院交付之後也充分的進行討論"},{"start":10605.129,"end":10626.144,"text":"那最後呢就是因為還是要回到行政院院會同意後才能夠跟司法院會嫌才能送到立法院來所以呢我們立法院這邊委員會這邊也是希望能夠了解到行政院對於這個妨礙司法公正的專章到底有什麼樣的構想我們是非常非常的有興趣去了解"},{"start":10626.744,"end":10641.757,"text":"那而這個專章各條文的設計規劃會影響到社會哪些層面我相信也會社會大眾所關注的因此呢剛剛在前面已經有委員提到了對於包括像稅務行政事件審理法我們就召開過公聽會包括說我們對於保單底"},{"start":10646.516,"end":10665.854,"text":"在這個部分我們也召開過公聽會那舉凡這些一般民生攸關的法案我們都會辦理公聽會而且會盡量的提供不只是司法委員會我們本會各委員的版本或者是政黨的提案版本我們也會盡量去求取到相關行政機關他們對這些相關法制設計的研議內容"},{"start":10669.838,"end":10679.318,"text":"那這些原因內容呢可能再回到台南前奧說妨礙司法公正當中我們目前的現有版本大概都只有提到了所謂的這個"},{"start":10681.445,"end":10698.683,"text":"影響作證那麼那在這些滅證罪當中我們的司法官說那司法官說跟滅證這個其實呢是一體的兩面前者呢你將這個罪證讓他無法呈現在司法審判當中後者呢你是妨礙作證或"},{"start":10700.285,"end":10724.451,"text":"司法關說都影響到審理的公正性這些其實在妨礙司法公正當中都是必要的但是目前現有的版本我們並沒有充分地顯現包含了從剛剛所說的棄保潛逃到妨礙作證到我們所看到的有些設計是司法關說以及這邊所沒有的因滅證據滅證罪這些都是在妨礙司法"},{"start":10728.672,"end":10752.019,"text":"公正應有的專章當中我說專章是因為目前我們版本就有人提出專章的章名這裡面就是第十章之一妨礙司法公正罪這樣的一個設計的確是比較周延所以本席在這邊利用委員會的審查時間那也是建請我們主席再考量到本會期如果還有餘裕的話因為真的知道我們目前會期很緊"},{"start":10752.859,"end":10778.073,"text":"我算一算下個星期有三次那本星期的話因為昭緯已經安排了週四是要審查法務部的預算那我不曉得說還有哪些吳昭緯所安排的所排定的預算要進行審查那我的部分都審查完了那至於本週三因為上次跟昭緯吳昭緯做輪調所以本週三已經也發布就是就"},{"start":10783.316,"end":10811.317,"text":"稅審法呢我們就繼續審議那我是想呢接下來還有下週的三次以及1月20號的一次算來算去除了本週已排定的三次之外還剩四次的時間那是不是有可能我們本委員會能夠就這麼重要的一個影響民眾權益相當廣泛的專章的設計那剛剛也有委員提到說到目前為止坦白說行政院前期的研議這個不是什麼秘密啊"},{"start":10812.417,"end":10832.905,"text":"我當然知道行政機關 行政院 法務部基於機關倫理在行政院院會並沒有合訂前他是不便於對外拒文來跟立法院表達 交他們的版本甚至就算是行政院院合訂了 還要跟司法院會前這才是能完成一個完整的司法體系的內容"},{"start":10833.365,"end":10847.726,"text":"那我是覺得在進行這個過程當中可否呢我們可以就行政院原來擬定的這些架構內容那我們本委員會再參酌其他委員的各種版本那包括補足了包括一滅證據罪這個很重要的"},{"start":10849.408,"end":10874.535,"text":"妨礙司法公正的這些罪名或規劃那我們來辦一個公聽會那我是覺得這次廣泛討論呢如果我們能夠進行更周延相信未來在逐條的時候或者有更完備的版本或修正動議如果考量到時間我覺得這個事情也很重要感覺上也很急迫那我們都可以用修正動議的方式讓這個法案能夠更完備那以上就懇請我們主席能夠來審酌 謝謝"},{"start":10878.148,"end":10880.87,"text":"我們下一位請審發會委員發言首先我對剛剛莊嘉斌委員所提的我個人是有一點不同的意見就是說你說現在行政院還沒有核定的版本請法務部這邊"},{"start":10900.703,"end":10927.274,"text":"來提供,我個人認為說基於行政一體法務部事實上是沒有這個身份跟地位來這邊提出他的版本那要不然我可以說法務部你們可以把當初承辦所簽的第一個版本拿出來給我們大家參考一下這個不行,因為他這個對法務部來講,在這邊他所提出到委員會的版本他就應該是就是行政院的版本,他沒有法務部所謂未經過這個行政院"},{"start":10930.755,"end":10944.787,"text":"這個合定的版本由法務部自己先提出的這種權責這個是我這邊所講的第一個問題第二個林氏民委員已經走了林氏民委員剛剛提到說"},{"start":10946.969,"end":10965.575,"text":"因為我這邊提到說,這個大家在這麼多委員跟黨團的提案當中,有一些不確定的法律概念那他提出的理由是說,林士兵委員提出的理由是說本來法律概念就沒有辦法每一個都明確所以有不明確的法律概念也沒有關係,這個說法讓我非常的驚訝、訝異這個"},{"start":10970.959,"end":10999.742,"text":"所以他剛剛舉的例子是說我所提的這個有關不法關說的這個定義齁這個定義我所看到的都沒有定義啦就是我講過只有主席的這個這個提案說明裡面有指出齁他說所謂不法關說就是只運用其職務或身份地位之實質影響力使該等人員積極作為或消極不作為如果按照這個定義事實上範圍是非常非常的大你運用你的實質影響力"},{"start":11001.738,"end":11010.828,"text":"利用你的職務身份地位實質影響力使該等人沒有提到任何的方法具體的手段但使該等人原為消極作為或"},{"start":11012.256,"end":11032.748,"text":"消極之作為或消極之不作為就叫做不法關說那你在這個法律條裡面定義不法關說的意思就是說那有合法關說有合法關說所以才有不法關說所以說以不正當的方法行關說或請託者這個是林士敏委員的版本那麼就是說有以正當的方法行關說或請託的狀況囉"},{"start":11035.8,"end":11047.664,"text":"所以我覺得這個都是我個人認為說有一些不明確的法律概念那再加上這個再加上這個我剛剛所提的有關於這個這個"},{"start":11051.898,"end":11070.569,"text":"這裡面有一些罪行相當跟這個各罪之間的這個這個刑度的衡平的問題這個也在各個版本之中也都有不一樣那林氏編委員剛剛說這個已經經過七年了所以這個討論都已經很多了所以不需要再召開公聽會但是我認為如果說我們今天要就這"},{"start":11072.43,"end":11093.554,"text":"我們的委員版本在沒有這個行政院版本的情況下就這些委員跟黨團的提案來進行立法的話那我覺得這些條文我覺得今天就以我們這邊在這邊的這些委員大家就這些從立法體系上面的分歧開始討論我個人認為說還是應該召開公聽會讓就這些條文"},{"start":11099.015,"end":11123.273,"text":"就我們現在手上這些版本召開公聽會讓學者以及司法實務者就現在我們既有的這些條文我們不用管行政院有沒有版本就既有這些條文來進行進一步的這些研討我覺得這樣的立法就我個人做司法法治委員會的一個委員的成員之一我認為這樣子的做法是比較妥當的以上"},{"start":11125.526,"end":11144.663,"text":"好謝謝那待會討論是不是還有人要進行第三輪發言嗎會議詢問一下那個那個招委今天對於會議期程的安排是什麼因為下午我們很多跟本委員會相關的法案要寫上當然我們"},{"start":11145.629,"end":11162.009,"text":"很多是党变啦但是另外比如说警察人员人事条例啦这些行政院组织法这些都是跟本委会相关可能本委会本委会的委员也会去参与协商所以不知道说召委今天的会议时间的安排是如何"},{"start":11162.389,"end":11180.227,"text":"沒有我們今天會議會一直進行到下午那當然如果說會議的進度怎麼樣我們等一下會看進度的狀況如何去做決定那等一下中午的話當然如果說各黨之間你可以協調一下看有沒有不同的想法"},{"start":11181.124,"end":11193.81,"text":"或是說像那個民眾黨團現在也在嘛或國民黨等一下如果有在的話你可以討論一下看大家對今天議程要走到什麼地步有沒有一個共識出來那我這邊當然都尊重各位的想法"},{"start":11201.487,"end":11208.891,"text":"方案司法公正我相信這個也沒有人會去擋啦但是有一些條文像譬如說我剛從161條161-1那幾個條文"},{"start":11215.715,"end":11241.507,"text":"涉及到你有些條文我贊成的那有些條文的設計我就跟你說是顛覆我對法律的一個認知的那全部都弄在一起到最後就好像是糊弄的那想過的比如說通過的條文我就覺得沒有過可惜哪一些條文我就覺得說沒有去講清楚的也糊弄的這樣一過去那這個也好奇怪啊那是不是可以招待大家來談一下"},{"start":11243.408,"end":11249.156,"text":"結商一下看看怎麼樣的處理的方式會比較好黃委員是程序發言嗎來 請說"},{"start":11251.875,"end":11279.289,"text":"第一個剛剛主席問了大家對於今天審法案基本上面的態度跟立場之前這件事情詢答過了等的也夠久了各個委員針對各個條文不同的設計有不同的看法我都尊重我都尊重如果覺得這個條文根本不應該定那就把它否決掉"},{"start":11280.267,"end":11300.622,"text":"如果應該修就拿出修正動議如果今天不急提出來你要到第二輪黨團協商再提出來也沒有關係審法案基本上面的程序本來就是這個樣子謝謝黃委員所以我說尊重各位委員大家的一個"},{"start":11301.92,"end":11303.721,"text":"大體討論就已經討論完畢程序部分還有意見大體"},{"start":11330.376,"end":11346.252,"text":"那你是不是要來登記如果講的完我們就盡量趕快把它講完嘛就是一次就不需要再進行多次的大體討論多輪的大體討論那就麻煩吳委員發言"},{"start":11355.25,"end":11367.798,"text":"好謝謝主席我再次來論述一下怎麼樣讓這一次我們在針對妨礙司法公正罪的整個配套都能夠很完整好現在氣保檢討罪161條172-1條大家有提了"},{"start":11371.661,"end":11395.199,"text":"恐嚇騷擾行賄證人罪172-2 172-3也有人提了司法官說罪172-5也有委員提了但是這個就是最定義不明的就會在司法官說這一條可能會討論非常多那我一直在講這個湮滅證據罪如果要我認為要一併思考它會對應在第165跟166條那因為現在我們在普遍面對的是"},{"start":11402.003,"end":11420.116,"text":"現在的現行的犯罪的行為很多都是集團的分工或是組織化那越來越多的這種尤其是我們在說這個大財團好了可能是在環保類的食品安全類的或者是財經金融犯罪類別的"},{"start":11421.051,"end":11438.572,"text":"這些的犯刑其實很多而且很多都是新興的犯罪的樣態那也因為這些是大財團或者是本身的這個影響力比較大的這個犯刑的人 犯罪者那他能夠一手去掌控相關的不法事證"},{"start":11439.773,"end":11450.058,"text":"或者是說一旦被抓了 東窗事發了 被偵辦了那他們又能夠非常容易的去毀滅相關的證據"},{"start":11452.301,"end":11476.136,"text":"然後因為他有能力他可以用各種不正的手段去做這些證據的湮滅或影響這妨礙司法後續偵辦的公正所以這些作為裡頭在這一次大家在條文上裡頭並沒有看到那我也想就教一下就如果說行政院研議中的對於這個部分樣態的湮滅證據罪"},{"start":11478.419,"end":11504.615,"text":"是不是也有在你們在思考當中的整個chapter裡面更完整的面向好這個部分要請法務部來做一下說明好嗎因為我一直在提像嘉賓委員也一直在提到驗滅證據罪那當然還有另外一個啦可能司法院比較不同意見啊藐視法庭罪我不曉得你們在這個觀點上是怎麼樣我可以就教一下市長"},{"start":11508.015,"end":11527.72,"text":"跟委員報告有關於這個湮滅政績罪的部分那本部在整個行政院的討論當中的確有就這個湮滅政績有提出一個相關的大家一個共識修法的方向因為我們現在湮滅政績罪我們現行法湮滅的證據必須要是他人的刑事犯罪他人必須要被告"},{"start":11528.28,"end":11555.686,"text":"就是說他成為被告之後我們湮滅才會構成犯罪那這個罪對於前期有些還沒有成為被告的他人證據我們把湮滅反而不會構成犯罪所以造成一個我們處罰上我們認為這也是個妨礙司法公正的一個行為所以我們在整個修法的建議上我們是比較踩就是說他人行事被告這個被告的這個字眼照紙給他拿掉就是你湮滅他人行事犯罪不管在哪個階段他都應該是妨礙司法公正或者湮滅證據的一環"},{"start":11557.606,"end":11584.828,"text":"這第一個部分第二部分呢關於自己的這個證據呢我們現行實務的見解就是說你使用自己偽造的證據這個是不會構成犯罪的使用自己的你使用別人的當然會你使用自己的偽造的證據反而不會構成犯罪這個其實你使用證據本身是偽造你雖然是你自己你自己的犯罪你來使用它其實也是妨礙了我們司法公正所以這一塊我們也希望就把它也入法化"},{"start":11585.628,"end":11613.082,"text":"所以我們整個這個法案司法公罪章我們的確是在研議的過程當中希望把這個湮滅證據這個罪也把它列入整個罪章的範圍之一謝謝所以我非常同意嘛你現在湮滅證據的課題是他人的案件證據而且是刑事案件存在的前提對於自己湮滅自己的對自己有利的證據沒有就像我剛剛講的很多有能力的而且是這種"},{"start":11614.878,"end":11630.341,"text":"可能能力更大的財團的犯罪食安環保這些東西就必須有這樣子的條文來處理它所以我再次覺得我只是再次引證我們早上講了整個不要掛一漏萬"},{"start":11631.397,"end":11657.875,"text":"然後我們也都支持氣保檢討它過去就發生這嚴重的影響了國家的司法威信我想民進黨是民進黨團也都非常支持我們應當來修然後呢在妨礙司法公正的那個部分等一下如果我是覺得還是需要公聽會啦好這個面向實在太多這個問一下次長也覺得蠻尷尬的"},{"start":11660.134,"end":11686.621,"text":"这个号召大家去包围北检北院这有没有严重的去对于我们的司法人员有非常严重的压力存在不是吗这些东西我们在场这些委员们大家对于妨碍司法公正的很多的面向行为样态都有很多很需要再进一步厘清的而不是只有我们几位修法者"},{"start":11687.472,"end":11711.369,"text":"我們應當擴大更多的相關當事人 尤其是法律界的一些討論所以主席 再次 我不知道說為什麼這個會期每一次 我對您個人沒有意見可是每次在認為 跟您討論法案然後我們認為需要再擴大更多的參與在公聽的時候 您永遠是站在覺得"},{"start":11712.738,"end":11739.056,"text":"比較保留我為改革法案總共開了好幾次也是我們要一直提醒那這個你也可以那你覺得這個案子不需要擴大大家更完善更多元的討論嗎在這邊我看從嘉賓委員也好思堯到發會委員到瑞雄委員我們今天一直在講包括淨宇委員我們都希望能夠有公聽會"},{"start":11740.946,"end":11760.616,"text":"這個部分您要不要正面的給我們一些回應我會再考慮沒有啦 你不要說我都從來沒有啦沒有我知道啊 也是我們爭取啊所以我就相信您也是認為有必要 您也願意嘛我記得那個公務員改革那個也有對啊 就我都有 都後來有開革命會我們有一個問題啦"},{"start":11763.877,"end":11788.748,"text":"我們這次在審這些條文的時候我從頭到尾我都一直認為說我們既然在講說這個罪責是不是有相符的時候我們應該有級距在立法的時候應該有一個級距你像譬如說你對於證人鑑定人你去騷擾騷擾我們是三年那我們刑法是恐嚇兩年"},{"start":11791.977,"end":11815.129,"text":"就是說我就會說你會顛覆我的概念就是說本來比較重的你要騷擾你要把它三年那恐後你應該再加一個一年或加個兩年啊那變成說比較輕度的行為的它又變得又比較輕 變得比較重那該重度的行為一修法完以後又變得比較輕那這些是不是要有一個集聚裡面"},{"start":11816.662,"end":11834.991,"text":"我們每一次都會去修法我們都會去把所有的一個罪責裡面啊那什麼樣的一個法醫的一個侵犯裡面那可能他定出來的刑都會怎麼樣把條文來做比較我一直提的就是這一些我認為張偉你一定懂我在講什麼這個是一個基本啊"},{"start":11835.922,"end":11848.723,"text":"我剛挑戰你的也是一樣啊因為你跟我講國家法律社會法律個人法律我就跟你說我們這幾年都已經顛覆掉了反而你如果真的要講法感的話老百姓在意的是你騙我那麼多錢你要更重"},{"start":11850.19,"end":11876.403,"text":"就變成了連法官現在在量刑都有這樣的一個傾向啦所以是不是我們這一些應該有極具的一個概念把相關的罪責的部分我們新的修法出來以後不要調穩在那邊打架不要到最後變成說我們認為這個行為是比較輕度的反而它的輕度重於它原來的我們要規範的像比如說恐嚇 那個更糟糕的"},{"start":11877.915,"end":11889.768,"text":"更糟糕更嚴重的他的法定刑變成比較低那新增了條文反正他的行為的強度沒那麼強的他的刑度反而越高我在談的是這個應該有一個比較對照"},{"start":11891.765,"end":11920.287,"text":"謝謝莊委員 莊委員的指教我都有聽到啦謝謝莊委員那我想說到現在我們大體討論已經進行完畢那我們現在開始進行逐條討論但是那個上午的會議截止時間將至那上午會議我們就先進行到此那下午的會議呢我們就提前到一點半開始黃委員有必要休息這麼長嗎"},{"start":11925.816,"end":11953.105,"text":"有必要休息這麼長嗎不是啊今天這個妨礙司法公正罪拖了夠久了吧對不起我現在在講話剛剛你講話的時候我有在旁邊摸摸嗎是所以現在是我在發言審發會委員請你尊重我發言你認為你需要休息長一點我尊重嘛"},{"start":11954.161,"end":11975.598,"text":"但我的看法是沒有必要休息這麼長至於說我現在在發言的時候民進黨的立委在我對面無視於我現在正在發言在進行程序上面的干擾我只能夠說我非常的遺憾請主席再思考一下是不是有必要要休息這麼長這是我的看法OK你們"},{"start":11983.029,"end":11986.15,"text":"黃委員希望說能夠把時間縮短因為剛剛大家沒有意見嘛我們支持您的才是這是我們的意見還是黃委員如果說希望先縮短還是黃委員你有沒有希望說到什麼時間開始"},{"start":12005.12,"end":12023.181,"text":"主席我們這些我們多數人都支持你的才是耶我們多聽一下大家的想法就像我會聽各位的想法一樣我們都不是大家你們不要這樣子我說了我們都聽大家的想法我們都不是大家不是啦"},{"start":12024.673,"end":12038.027,"text":"我們不要像小孩子一樣在吵架我說了今天我提出來一樣一個時間那我們尊重各位委員的想法那想請教一下黃委員你覺得大概什麼時間開比較好現在11點51分11點51分以中午休息來講"},{"start":12043.913,"end":12068.445,"text":"我想啦一個小時綽綽有餘現在11點51分嘛那休息一個小時又10分鐘我想一般百光百業的人中午休息這樣的時間啊都非常充分了啦所以我建議下午一點就開始開會那請問一下各位就是黃委員希望一點就開始開會不知道各位有沒有意見我們兩點啊你要這樣子我們就兩點啊主席要有點擔當啦"},{"start":12070.814,"end":12077.721,"text":"黃委員還是說我們時間上面能夠稍微協調一下因為我原本是說1點半那這樣如果1點15大家可不可以接受我覺得大家可以溝通啦"},{"start":12097.284,"end":12120.262,"text":"你們是希望兩點嘛 對不對那這樣的話還是我們就是維持在一點半的時間就最早的時候溝通洪委員跟洪委員的想法怎麼樣因為我想說這個還是大家都是公平的那個我說明一下主席請我發表意見那我就把我的意見發表了嘛那我的看法是一點開會就可以了沒有必要休息這麼久"},{"start":12121.343,"end":12146.665,"text":"其他委員有不同的看法,我也都尊重那您現在是主席,那你怎麼做才是那就依照你才是一個結果好,那這樣齁我們如果不在的話就是兩點半了不要這樣子齁,就是說因為我剛剛說一點半嘛那我也聽完兩邊的意見那這樣的話我想我還是維持一點半那下午我們就盡量加快整個速度不要影響到大家的那個活動好,謝謝各位"},{"start":18150.233,"end":18173.623,"text":"我們繼續開會 會議在上午休息前已經結束大力討論開始逐條討論 現在進行逐條討論併案審查中華民國刑法部分修正條文草案繼續進行逐條討論反案性部分修正暨處理一張名八條次序列我們現在先審查排序一第161條"},{"start":18175.629,"end":18176.59,"text":"161條有這麼多的"},{"start":18197.692,"end":18210.988,"text":"條文我倒是要來延續著我早上的一個說法就是說你這個依法逮捕或拘禁之人脫逃處三年以下有期徒刑就是說把"},{"start":18212.461,"end":18240.836,"text":"原來的現行條文一年以下你去把它做一個提升那我為什麼一直講說這個是一個連動的就是說提升到三倍不是說不可以但是說你要把它去做一個加重的時候那其他的條文其實很多都是連動你像譬如說我們現在在談工人泄密我就這樣講就好了你像譬如說我現在是一個"},{"start":18243.998,"end":18267.932,"text":"依法逮捕之人或拘禁之人那旁邊去幫助他或者說有人去洩密公務人員去洩密那有時候常常涉及到有共犯的一個問題那你單純就從被逮捕跟拘禁的人脫逃一年然後把他提升到三倍這個理由到底是"},{"start":18269.033,"end":18295.048,"text":"真正的含義是什麼啦我們當然看到整個立法理由裡面去只是單純的去提到說日本的刑法是現在那也是提高刑度到三年以下那去做這樣一個比較的時候是不是這是這是唯一的是說日本這樣規定那我們也要這樣的去做一個規定否則一下子提升三倍他的理由到底是什麼這個請法務部這個地方是不是可以在"},{"start":18296.389,"end":18306.234,"text":"再做一個說明好不好我光這個三連這個部分因為很多條文涉及到連動你這個罪責去把它提升到三杯最主要的理由是什麼"},{"start":18309.372,"end":18337.711,"text":"好 聽法務部說明顧委員報告那最主要理由當然是這個是跟設計上是跟後面還有拒保檢討罪做一些聯動因為拒保檢討罪的話的刑度那在如果我們脫逃罪沒有跟著修的話他會一年以下就會失衡這第一點第二點當然是早上也有跟委員報告的他是認為就是說他畢竟他是侵犯的是跟拒保檢討罪侵犯的是國家的法義嘛國家的司法公正嘛"},{"start":18338.411,"end":18365.726,"text":"所以那部分多處一年以下的話可能會行者會相較之下會失衡所以連動的在這脫逃罪的部分也並同的把它提高到三年以下有期徒刑好 那還有哪一位委員有好 宋少偉其實主席我們在看這些條文現行條文脫逃罪它有第二項還有其實還有第三項"},{"start":18367.096,"end":18392.617,"text":"那這個第三項其實大家好像不是比較大家關注的聚眾以強暴脅迫犯第一項之罪者就是不曉得理解上是不是要結球就是第一項依法逮捕拘禁之人脫逃他會有這樣的一個刑責但是第三項認為如果是其他人以比如說像那一天在北院的情況之下"},{"start":18393.337,"end":18420.58,"text":"那如果說你那天在北院的情況那麼被告他是依法逮捕的人那如果說是第三項那聚眾以強暴脅迫或在場注視的人都有他的刑責我是覺得這原來的脫逃罪的設計重點是在於這前三項當中強調的是依法逮捕拘禁的人你脫逃然後第三項如果你是在旁邊譬如在"},{"start":18422.836,"end":18448.568,"text":"情境上很像我們這兩週在台北地院看到的情況但是呢如果我們看到其他的條文啊這個其實民眾黨黨團呢他其實跟我們原文他只是把刑期做調整這是第一個不同待會我是不是可以請次長一一的來說明你們法務部對這些條文的邊的看法民眾黨黨團呢他其實他在後面"},{"start":18450.063,"end":18468.255,"text":"後面的16條之一它反而是有另外的規定那我還是先就161條來講那民眾黨團它只是就原文上把刑期加重但是所謂的棄保潛逃的事情呢在民眾黨團的161項內呢其實並沒有對於棄保"},{"start":18472.116,"end":18495.012,"text":"有保這個事情並沒有去描述遣逃逃怎麼去認定那遣又怎麼認定上午法務部的次長的指教我也覺得很好你要有三個條件嘛對不對那以他來講棄保遣逃大概有三個條件你必須是被拒保出來的第二個你要逃那什麼情況下逃"},{"start":18496.713,"end":18508.97,"text":"我沒有回來就到逃嗎 不是啊 發布通緝才能確定你是逃啊不然你可能只是就拒保之後叫你要出現 你沒有出現 還不到逃嘛可能要通緝 發布通緝才算逃然後呢 要潛 要隱匿行蹤 或者逃亡"},{"start":18514.057,"end":18532.231,"text":"但是我們看一下另外有羅委員的提案他這裡是把161條加上了什麼被告受拒保責付限制駐居限制出境或限制出海而經合法傳喚無正當理由而不到者經發布通緝者一同後面就這句話最重要了"},{"start":18534.045,"end":18558.508,"text":"前面呢是以被告為對象被告在接受後面的這幾項處分之後還要經合法傳喚喔無證當理由喔那不到場喔三個條件喔好 那麼之後呢發佈通緝者一同會被發佈通緝的不是只有被告啊證人傳喚不到也會被發佈通緝啊早上提到的橘子是不是他不是被告啊"},{"start":18560.418,"end":18588.733,"text":"我不知道他是不是被告因為我沒有叫他傳票我不知道他是不是被告待會次長也可以說明一下我們就具體的案例我們來看一下這樣的條文設計如何但是我們看一下其他的像謝一峰委員的版本他也是上面寫被告然後後面是寫今發布通緝者異同好那另外林委員的版本他跟原條文一樣依法逮捕拘禁是脫逃者他是依法逮捕拘禁"},{"start":18589.721,"end":18618.931,"text":"但是獲經命拒保等等等這些那後者就不限定是被告啦而且後者包含的內容他不見得有被簽署的逮捕拘禁嘛所以前面他不能說已經被逮捕拘禁才脫逃的才脫逃的跟呢只要你有經過要求經命拒保責付限制駐居限制出境或限制出海之逃亡常逆者好這裡還有說逃亡常逆"},{"start":18620.385,"end":18634.736,"text":"這個用詞啊又跟這個經合法傳喚無證當裡有不到呢又不一樣了因為逃亡藏匿呢它是一個外觀上逃亡藏匿逃亡藏匿那這個呢用詞上"},{"start":18635.416,"end":18656.329,"text":"我還是希望說法務部能夠提供實務上的一些見解因為這些條文的文字有這些差異那就我們在審查法案的時候它的立法上它到底會產生什麼樣的變化那陳文我們上午包括莊委員提到的有些人他其實他是被告但他自己不知道被告那傳喚不到 未到庭"},{"start":18657.373,"end":18681.241,"text":"他可能就被發布通緝那他可能符合被告然後被發布通緝但是有人像橘子他可能是傳喚要當證人屢傳不到那就發布通緝那又或者說104名委員的版本他是要逮捕後脫逃的才算但是他這裡的金命巨寶等等這些情況但是又要有逃亡隱匿者"},{"start":18683.442,"end":18711.145,"text":"他要達成到逃亡隱匿才構成他這個所謂的嚴格來講這個我們所說的棄保潛逃不完整因為棄保潛逃只是其中一個樣態證人傳喚不到潛逃也算那被逮捕了脫逃的也算被告也算那還有一種上午不知道有沒有提過這種情況這個抱歉次長我的問題比較多這些樣態比較多比如說宣判"},{"start":18712.335,"end":18740.678,"text":"宣判都是未到庭那有可能未到庭該被告的宣判案件未到庭可能呢沒事但是因為未到庭啊那萬一也被未到庭可不可以到達要通緝的地步這個我不清楚這個實務上呢我們在場有很多實務界的先進可不可以指教一下單單161條每個委員的版本就有跟原條文161條有些不同"},{"start":18741.26,"end":18750.08,"text":"那其實呢如果是就我看到的民眾黨團呢他其實是把前面幾個委員他們放在一六一條修正內容放在之一"},{"start":18751.226,"end":18777.586,"text":"他第一條161還是原來的脫逃罪但是他161條之一是經檢察官或法官拒保沒有講被告只要是檢察官或法官拒保或者是責負或者是限制駐居或限制出境或出海之被告後面被告我放在這裡了你看所以我們讀這個條文要很小心那原來他161條之一還是指限定在被告的內容"},{"start":18778.767,"end":18801.12,"text":"但是有的他沒有限定在被告有的限定在被告有的是被告放在前面有的是被告放在後面有的是要求要怎樣要有逃亡常例大概這種情況以上這些樣態條文的差異是否我們法務部能夠救你們食物機關或者說在場我們有豐沛的食物經驗的人士可以告訴我們"},{"start":18801.9,"end":18816.128,"text":"不然的話在我們看來今天很關心的妨礙司法公正都在談所謂的棄保潛逃好像妨礙司法公正就只有棄保潛逃那其實我們修的這一個條文161條它基本上是規範在"},{"start":18817.802,"end":18831.53,"text":"脫逃還有聚眾強暴來協助脫逃原來是規定在這裡現在所謂的氣泡潛逃其實不在這161我相信也是大家修法的目的啦但是呢樣態這麼多可不可以逐一的讓我們來了解一下謝謝"},{"start":18835.086,"end":18860.506,"text":"是不是一併講完同一個條你再給他來做一個回答也好那我稍微我再延續一下就是說我是明白的表達我反對161條這樣的一個修法這樣的一個修法其實我都是從整個體系裡面去講本來你脫逃罪是一年以下有企圖刑那你重放的人是三倍"},{"start":18861.647,"end":18876.874,"text":"那你現在把自己脫逃的部分把它提高三倍那原來我們認為罪質應該是比他強三倍的去重方的我們又不懂這個邏輯是什麼我就不懂"},{"start":18877.754,"end":18900.95,"text":"你脫逃罪章你第八章裡面你說161 162一直到163涉及到公務人員我們其他的條文都不動你就把單純的依法逮捕拘禁脫逃人本來是一年以下有期徒刑那你把它提升了三倍那好 那我原來去抓到了我去把那個人把他給縱放掉的是三年以下的"},{"start":18901.55,"end":18930.361,"text":"那你原來本來挑你的設計是說我比這個最比原來自行脫逃的人還高三倍啊那自行脫逃的人你說那個比較比較符合人性就是說他被抓到了他不想被繩子以法他跑掉了他說你這也很可惡所以一年那如果是你去把他給縱放的你說這個更可惡都已經在公權力機關的範圍底下了你去把他放掉所以乘以三罰三倍那你如果自行脫逃的是一乘以三"},{"start":18931.161,"end":18941.558,"text":"那你去縱放的原來是他的三倍的你又保持不動這個我是覺得我百思不得其解的地方這第一個那第二個就是說"},{"start":18943.055,"end":18971.248,"text":"剛剛那個通緝的部分被告才有通緝的問題那另外就是許子那個是因為有後來好像有一個罪名一個罪名偵查才會有這樣的問題那另外的就是說你本來是在公權力的掌握之下已經逮捕的人你跑掉了是一年那如果你現在去增加拒保 責負 限制自居還有限制出海"},{"start":18972.068,"end":18995.697,"text":"的這個部分那這些人不在公權力範圍的依法逮捕就是我已經逮捕你了我提高三倍因為你藐視我嘛你就已經被我抓了被我公權力機關抓了你還跑掉我就處理把你三年好那你現在把這些不是在公權力的掌握範圍的你也把它"},{"start":18996.823,"end":19011.822,"text":"突然把他說那你也是一樣都是三年那這個有沒有符合橫貧的一個原理我請那個次長這邊也法務部這邊也一併做一個說明謝謝好 謝謝那還有其他委員要提出問題嗎那沒有的話麻煩次長說明"},{"start":19015.3,"end":19044.78,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們這個棄保潛逃罪到底要擺在脫逃罪章還是另外成立一個獨立的一個妨礙司法公正罪章那我們的見解是這樣脫逃罪他本來我們刑法裡面就脫逃罪章他是在處理這一個你依托物理性的一個拘禁作用的一個行為他基本上他是有被依法拘禁逮捕之人他依托這個物理性的機器行為所以他有獨立一個罪章叫做脫逃罪"},{"start":19045.56,"end":19071.393,"text":"那至於棄保潛逃罪它並不是這種行為太樣它基本上侵害的是國家的司法公正所以說有委員也獨立另外一個罪章去處理這一個棄保潛逃罪那我們修法的建議也比較贊成就是說另外就這一個法案司法公正的部分另外不要在這個脫逃罪章裡面去處理因為它規範的目的不一樣"},{"start":19072.333,"end":19098.246,"text":"它規範目的不一樣這第一點跟各位委員報告那倒是這個它的刑責的部分那刑責的部分當然尊重大院的決定那的確會有剛剛我們委員所提到的我們的這個依法逮捕脫逃之人如果把他提高刑責到三年的話縱放的人或便利脫逃人你沒有跟著聯動把他刑責提高的話"},{"start":19099.847,"end":19123.608,"text":"純粹從我們原來法例的這個安排來上的確會有一些失衡的狀態因為原來是一年三年嘛那現在變成三年你如果縱放人沒有跟著提高的話的確法例在原來的安排上它是失衡的所以刑責如果161要連動要提高162要不要跟著提高本部也尊重這樣子的一個規定那當然剛委員有提到就是說"},{"start":19125.542,"end":19134.153,"text":"脫逃罪處三年以下跟我們妨礙司法公正罪一樣處三年以下這到底法律上有沒有橫頻"},{"start":19135.945,"end":19164.366,"text":"有沒有橫頻啊那這個還是涉及到一個這個刑責的選擇嘛刑責選擇就是說那基本上我們認為就是說這兩個罪他基本上都是妨害司法公正那脫罩罪他又另外再多了一個其實他已經現實侵害了這個物理性的一個激進作用所以說這一個兩個我們在立法院在行政院討論的時候的確是把它做一個相同刑責處理"},{"start":19165.086,"end":19191.502,"text":"但是的確會有剛剛委員所提到的就是說這兩種太陽也許不一樣為什麼刑責處相同那這個刑責部分那本部呢這邊也尊重大院的決定那剛剛我們宗家兵中委員提到就是的確我們現在發布通緝的不可能是證人一定是被告他才有可能會發布通緝所以證人基本上他們不會有棄保潛牢的問題一定是被告"},{"start":19192.182,"end":19197.426,"text":"他才有可能被發布通緝他才會有逃亡藏匿的問題證人沒有逃亡藏匿的問題"},{"start":19207.657,"end":19229.931,"text":"黃委員你有沒有看過呢我就覺得161我的看法就是說161跟162整個脫逃罪障那個是連動你不可能就只修一個161然後它變成把你161如果說你說脫逃了你要把它刑度做一個提升你不可能162沒有去做處理吧這個法務部這邊這個很簡單的ABC嘛唉"},{"start":19237.801,"end":19264.31,"text":"我可以講話了嗎第一個脫逃罪161當初為什麼刑推要往上拉法定刑太低第二個161跟162兩者之間的很平關係我可以理解莊瑞雄委員你的考慮但他基本上在處理的法例是在確保有關於國家未來的司法程序跟刑罰權"},{"start":19266.417,"end":19289.386,"text":"的保障確保國家的刑法權可以被公正的行事這個是法義你不管自己跑還是協助幫忙跑你所親愛的法義是一樣的所以我法務部你們自己也很清楚在日本的刑法裡面兩種太陽都是三年以下有期徒刑你們"},{"start":19290.518,"end":19316.007,"text":"有做過修法研究的你要清楚的跟各個委員講當初為什麼只有動161沒有動162理由就在這裡他所侵害的法律是統一不管是你自己跑還是放掉幫他跑你侵害的再保護的是什麼都是國家刑法權的公正行使所以法定刑為什麼會定的一樣"},{"start":19317.575,"end":19346.636,"text":"日本的立法者也不是笨蛋為什麼立法者會把他刑都變成一樣都是三年以下有期徒刑這些事情你們在當初2019年提出你們的一些相關修法的意見跟版本的時候該做的研究都做過了否則法務部裡面去設有關於刑法的研修小組是在幹什麼的法務部裡面設刑法研修小組不就是在做這些最基本的事情嗎"},{"start":19351.755,"end":19379.349,"text":"那不然法務部的那些刑法研修小組會都白開的喔各個不同的委員有自己的立法政策跟立場容我再說明一次我都尊重我都尊重專委員有專委員的看法我也尊重專委員可能覺得說162那種太陽在他心中那個秤要罰得更重一點這個我尊重"},{"start":19380.455,"end":19402.291,"text":"但是我是代表台灣民眾黨黨產的立場我們是在2024年的3月就已經提案了我當初2024年3月的時候不是把其他委員的提案拿來拼在一起沒有沒有"},{"start":19405.581,"end":19434.091,"text":"第二個現在針對161我的態度很簡單嘛有人認為要加重有人認為沒有要加重沒有辦法有共識沒有辦法有共識就保留啊那不然我們要一直留在這個條文裡面打轉嗎當初車賽者保護法的時候我們一樣很尊重民進黨的委員啊有意見就保留啊意識上面不就是這樣處理嗎這個是我的看法"},{"start":19440.931,"end":19455.421,"text":"謝謝剛剛有司法實務經驗的先進所提出的這些解釋事宜那我這裡還是要繼續的就這個因為有不同的版本所以我們還是要花比較多的時間在不同版本當中去求取比較妥適的立法內容"},{"start":19456.221,"end":19485.223,"text":"那我們看到羅志強委員呢他的第161條的修正他在第一項的後段呢說經發布通緝者一同那麼謝英文委員的版本也是如此那他們兩個的版本的內容看起來大致相同啊但是他們最後一項呢有加上逃逆被告那逃逆這個字呢在我們林思敏委員的版本當中呢他是把它限定在逃亡藏匿者就分成兩個啦一個是"},{"start":19486.328,"end":19510.184,"text":"依法逮捕拘禁的脫逃者或者經過那些處分之逃亡藏匿者那麼我想逃亡藏匿跟逃逆應該是指同一個意思他有一定成就的要件那在這三個版本當中都有提到逃亡藏匿或逃逆那這當中差別是經發布通緝者跟沒有這樣的文字第一個差別是什麼比如說在我聽起來剛剛說到"},{"start":19512.236,"end":19539.768,"text":"被告他不見得有經過上面的處分那就直接發布通緝的那這種情況也算但是如果以林氏民委的版本當中他這裡面呢就並沒有有一個所謂的發布通緝的一個前置的一個處分所以我們不曉得他這裡的直接從那些內容上就直接跳到逃亡藏匿那他到底要哪些要哪些條件才能開始起算那因為這牽涉到呢"},{"start":19541.292,"end":19567.721,"text":"民眾黨黨團他的六一之一他是強調的是被告但他這個被告看他的內容他也沒有說要有逃逆或逃亡藏匿所以這不同的版本之間他們當我們對照次長上午在說的說他這個棄保潛逃他必須要有發布通緝或者今發布通緝就算了就達到了還是說"},{"start":19569.642,"end":19596.237,"text":"還有有一個逃亡或隱匿這樣的舉證要由必須由檢察機關來表達那才能構成了這個棄保險逃的要件可是這個要件如果沒有在條文中表示譬如說以民主黨黨團的161之1他就沒有說逃逆或逃荒隱匿啊但是其他委員的版本不管是羅志強的啦還是謝依鳳的啦他們都有講到逃逆啊逃逆被告啊"},{"start":19597.738,"end":19617.054,"text":"那另外呢林思敏呢是說逃亡藏匿沒有提到發布通緝的所以發布通緝的就不在此限囉所以這些條文所呈現出來的含色範圍都不一樣所以我們很想知道說法務部你們作為檢察機關你們在面對這麼多的不同的刑事案件"},{"start":19617.774,"end":19643.127,"text":"那什麼樣的樣態是我們這個本條文的核心的打擊對象那哪些其實在實務經驗上可能那個被告完全沒有這樣的意識只是說因為外觀的形式的要件上達成了就有可能被發布通緝後就被認定是棄保潛逃就要用這個罪來克以他的刑責這是我們在上午到現在大家所關切的換言之觸犯了類似的"},{"start":19643.867,"end":19664.682,"text":"脫逃罪那加上我們用氣保潛逃來給他規範之後呢有那麼多樣態的犯罪行為或者那麼樣態的情境那哪些是我們具體要打擊的那這要打擊的對象是否現在的條文當中是否完備那又或者說如果條文上沒有明確的去界定會不會殃及持於對於那些在我們日常生活當中"},{"start":19665.402,"end":19694.113,"text":"他只是對於法律的嘗試或對於法院的這些傳喚的手續他未能去理解去遵循就可能糊裡糊塗的被發布通緝後就被認為是棄保潛逃就是發布通緝後可能或者有什麼其他程序就被因此而刻上這個刑責這是本席希望能夠從法務部這邊來了解到的黃委員剛中委員有先舉手中委員你剛是不是有要表示意見"},{"start":19696.465,"end":19708.208,"text":"我還是要表達啦拖拿罪到底是不是妨害司法我都有一個疑問你說自己去跑掉"},{"start":19710.851,"end":19729.197,"text":"這個還站在被告的立場你叫我去解釋我還是覺得有一點符合人性那如果說被逮捕的那全部都是這個是妨礙整個司法的公正或者說妨礙整個司法那所有出犯刑法的全部都是啊"},{"start":19730.137,"end":19744.85,"text":"我們只要有罪行法定的全部規範在有罪責的有處罰的那你敢來犯那好像就是對一個國家法醫的一個挑釁對司法的一個侵害所以單純在講說"},{"start":19748.954,"end":19766.604,"text":"依法被逮捕或拘禁的人你脫逃這個叫做妨害司法這個是比較難說服我啦我還是會回到說整個最值得一個做提升啊應該是全盤的去做一個考量啦或者你這樣子去做一個倉促的話沒有去做一個各個"},{"start":19769.425,"end":19792.039,"text":"刑法的罪章或者應該這個部分會有處罰到的只有在刑法裡面有規範那你刑法整個規範三百多條裡面你那一些的一個罪責裡面你沒有去做一個對照的話你很難去解釋說這個你把它提升上來因為可能大家就覺得說這個就很可惡啊那你為什麼也把它你都已經被逮捕了你還跑掉啊"},{"start":19793.32,"end":19822.543,"text":"那更讓我覺得更質疑的是你當然台灣民眾黨他是放在161條之一他也認為那個很可惡這個都可以討論台灣民眾黨是認為說金獎官命拒保或者責負限制秩序的部分這個也都把他提升到這個三年以下有期徒刑那在國民黨羅志強委員謝一鳳委員他們是在第161條你去增列到整個在第一項的後面後段要去增列"},{"start":19823.8,"end":19840.05,"text":"也就是說掌握在本來就是在公權力掌握之下的人就跑掉的跟本來沒有在公權力掌握之下的這個罪質是不是有相同這個新增的部分確實是要好好的去做一個討論以上黃委員"},{"start":19848.491,"end":19862.857,"text":"剛剛那個鍾嘉斌委員指教說台灣民眾黨黨團的提案沒有逃亡或藏匿沒有這樣子的一個行為太樣我基本上做的建議是說"},{"start":19864.398,"end":19893.348,"text":"如果要看各個黨黨或各個委員不同的提案法條的文字要看清楚行事訴訟法要有基本的理解我為什麼這樣講我們寫的是經發布通緝什麼時候會被發布通緝會被發布通緝的前提就是有逃亡或藏匿行事訴訟法寫得非常清楚沒有逃亡或藏匿怎麼會有發布通緝的事情怎麼會有發布通緝的事情"},{"start":19895.775,"end":19922.224,"text":"整個法條上面的設計就是這個樣子你如果只看法條的亂文生義的話你很容易會出現很嚴重的誤會甚至鬧出笑話我還是回來了我們現在是在處條嘛如果是在處條的話我是建議是不是一條一條來我們剛剛在處理的是161"},{"start":19924.389,"end":19940.37,"text":"對嘛 那針對1161其實就兩個問題嘛第一個問題就脫逃罪的部分法定刑要不要往上拉大家有不同的看法第二個在脫逃罪161這個法條本身它所要承載的規範能量"},{"start":19943.027,"end":19956.601,"text":"是就處理脫陶就好了其他的其他的太陽我們是不是在161之一再來處理繞了半天從頭到尾就只有在講這兩個問題嘛"},{"start":19958.757,"end":19983.664,"text":"我應該是沒歸於那錯啦第一個法定型要不要提高專委員有不同的看法我都尊重剛剛我已經說了嘛我也沒有說專委員的看法一定不對也沒有人規定說台灣在法定型的界定上面一定要跟著日本走沒有這回事啊台灣的立法者本來就台灣的立法者可以做出台灣立法者的決斷啦"},{"start":19985.185,"end":19993.038,"text":"那所以我才說161兩個問題第一個法定性要不要提高第二個在規範的模式上面"},{"start":19994.819,"end":20023.323,"text":"除了本來典型的脫逃罪以外其他跟棄保潛逃有關係的事情是要規範在161還是要規範在161之一大概在處理的就這兩件事嘛那我是不是具體建議大家沒共識就保留繼續往下走那要不然一樣的問題在這邊繞繞繞繞繞那是要繞到什麼時候講來講去也講不出什麼新的東西只是在拖延而已啊"},{"start":20028.416,"end":20048.13,"text":"主席要評論我們的發言我補充一個東西 司法實務上面 我可能補充一下我們還沒聽到法務部的意見沒關係 我也順便補充給法務部的次長聽因為次長是我以前的檢方指導老師其實訴訟法84條 發布通緝本來就是認為被告有逃亡或藏匿這是訴訟法84條規定的"},{"start":20050.572,"end":20065.091,"text":"所以我們如果再去論斷說到底有沒有逃亡或藏匿那這樣是不是意思就是說我們的通緝發布都違背刑事訴訟法8.4條這是第一個那第二個就是說現行我國的通緝其實是非常的嚴謹實務上面的狀況我跟各位報告"},{"start":20066.132,"end":20093.405,"text":"第一個必須檢察官有經過正式的傳喚以及掛號的傳喚以及拘提他必須做完這三個動作之後而且都是合法他才有可能去簽請通緝而且這個簽請通緝必須要主任檢察官相約以及檢察長同意才可以發布通緝所以基本上這是一個很嚴謹的流程並不是說像剛剛大家講的好像是通緝是一件很隨便事因為這個是檢查"},{"start":20095.706,"end":20100.555,"text":"沒有我在說明目前檢查實務上面的做法所以我說這是目前"},{"start":20104.983,"end":20132.654,"text":"沒有啦 我沒有批評任何人啦我只是說這是目前檢查實務的做法所以第一個就有逃亡或藏匿這大家可以參考一下刑事訴訟法84條那第二個就是說到底實務怎麼簽請通緝這東西非常的嚴謹這個我想說次長也一定很清楚次長也是檢察官出身的那我剛剛講的程序就是目前我國通緝發布前的要求好 謝謝主席我可不可以翻譯"},{"start":20134.005,"end":20160.655,"text":"我非常感謝啦因為呢 剛剛我就有說到了嘛因為在場有很多有司法實務的嘛不管是擔任檢察官還是擔任律師嘛但是呢 我們很清楚啊立法院的立法委員未必都擔任過檢察或律師或擔任過法官我們的扮演的角色就是從一般人民的法感他們去理解生活當中會遇到的各種樣態希望法律條文在制定的時候能夠兼顧到人民的生活的各種樣態"},{"start":20161.994,"end":20189.007,"text":"那當然我對於主席因為應該說是檢察官前檢察官吳前檢察官我對於您的司法實務我非常敬重但是我也非常懇切的希望聽到您的指導老師那個黃次長的說法畢竟我一直很期待法務部相對之下他對於實務上的見解應該有更周延或更完整的說明那其實很可惜黃委員通常講完話就離開了那其實我們要說明的是今天在程序上的處理因為目前如果說一條一條處理"},{"start":20190.228,"end":20192.211,"text":"1611字條161字這些條文內容再有三個版本它含設的範圍是包括民眾黨團本的161跟161之一嘛"},{"start":20201.547,"end":20222.423,"text":"所以程序上我們看到了羅志強委員的版本 羅志強委員也先離席了我們看到了謝一鋒委員的版本 我們看到了林思敏委員的版本他們這些版本的內容 它所涵蓋的範圍恰恰就是台灣民眾黨團的161跟161之一只是說民眾黨團它161它是根據人的脫逃罪 它就把刑責加重"},{"start":20223.143,"end":20247.059,"text":"但是他把一些要件規範在161-1而其他委員的版本呢把它通通放在同一個條文裡面所以如果主席真的認真要講的話我們在對法條的處理上其實我剛剛是不便去建議這應該是民眾黨黨團的161-1跟161並我們其他委員的161條共同來討論這樣才能還倍啊不然的話我們如果通過了其他委員或其他委員的161條那回過頭來還要再處理民眾黨團的161-1嗎"},{"start":20252.021,"end":20279.82,"text":"這邊呢 如果說正在從檢查實務 我絕對尊重我們的吳釗偉但是我們現在談法條的研修 法條的研擬未必就是以擔任過司法官 擔任過檢察官 擔任過律師的討論的內容就能夠代表我們整個委員會的共同意見那我現在希望呢 主席啊還是可以讓我們不斷的請求發言之後 希望得到法務部的一個"},{"start":20281.004,"end":20303.653,"text":"主管機關的相對意見而不是我們委員都發言完了 主席要加注 平注您的那些意見我相信待會次長也可以說得出來好 沒問題 那就來 麻煩請那莊委員我再一併把它說明完 再來聽次長的說明因為我覺得次長也很敢針對問題去講但是今天這個條文裡面"},{"start":20307.83,"end":20333.104,"text":"我倒覺得大家可以好好去仔細去想一想為什麼一個條文你說這個從二十幾年這九十年過去到現在一九三四年那倒沒有修過這一條的一個原因到底是什麼我一直在思考這樣的一個問題你像譬如說我們刑法裡面其實它有類似的一個概念你說在一百六十四條或者一百六十五條"},{"start":20334.866,"end":20352.745,"text":"湮滅刑事證據的部分你說因為第三人去藏匿你或者說去湮滅事證這個會過程罪責我們自己的話又沒有又沒有那也就是說那如果說我自行的自己自行去藏匿那就不是一個被處罰的一個對象那脫逃罪"},{"start":20356.417,"end":20370.47,"text":"之所以一年以下 我再猜 我再猜可能就是這個原因就是他的期待可能性本來就會比較低啦所以涉及到你去逮捕拘禁拖導人才會有比較低刑度這樣的一個安排設計嘛很合理吧"},{"start":20373.513,"end":20393.21,"text":"這樣講應該很合理吧 不然你很難去想像說你原來是在一年以下的一個有期徒刑那你其他的縱放的部分變成是三年以下的有期徒刑那你如果再去比較164跟165煙霉刑事證據的話那似乎就可以找到這樣的一個道理了"},{"start":20394.111,"end":20420.314,"text":"那在台灣民眾黨跟羅志強委員你們在那個161新增的一個後段的一個部分同樣也會碰到這樣的一個問題你在脫逃跟棄保潛逃的人犯罪嫌疑裡面你還在偵查跟審判當中你還沒有受到有罪的一個確定判決所以你就無從去有涉犯到罪行本領三年以上有期徒刑這樣的一個要件所以你整個這樣去把它思考下來的話"},{"start":20421.175,"end":20438.37,"text":"也就是說原先的立法者那樣的一個設計我到現在我還不因為說時間過去了90年了覺得它是錯的反而我們現在貿然去把它全部都做一個提升的話這個我才會覺得說很難去來做一個說服事實上我們跟前面一樣"},{"start":20446.127,"end":20452.692,"text":"我這樣講合理吧 怎麼去說理啊 你要把它提高我沒有意見我是說這個條文的整個安排裡面你們會互相打架我處理你 你回家我就幫你忙就好啊我就不要叫你處長啊 我說 欸 阿嬤姓的創意你在那裡詢問的時候 你這些都沒說是怎麼那些本地是一年以下提供到三年 其他的沒有放上來"},{"start":20471.553,"end":20491.242,"text":"那我再把你說那顏面刑事證據罪的時候我來跟你來做比較的話我們就會覺得說原來當初這樣的設計是符合人性的符合那個期待可能性的自己造的嘛 一年嘛你現在把它創成變三年這個反而我覺得這個條文當初的一個設計喔"},{"start":20493.031,"end":20510.586,"text":"這個不要因為日本亂改 我們就跟著這樣亂改脫逃罪設計上一年以下 符合人性 那個期待可能性本來就是低然後你涉及到逮捕基金的脫逃罪 刑度這樣的一個設計我反而覺得這樣才是合理啊我不曉得次長你的看法是怎麼樣好 那這部分麻煩次長能夠說明一下"},{"start":20516.527,"end":20531.515,"text":"好跟幾位委員報告了那幾位委員的條文裡面有涉及到過程要件的設計上有一個發布通緝這個過程要件沒有錯發布通緝按照刑事訴發四條規定前提是被告逃亡跟藏匿但是就是說"},{"start":20532.847,"end":20561.454,"text":"他另外逃亡藏匿之後另外要有一個檢查行政的一個發布程序這個檢查程序的問題如果說犯罪構成要件細於檢查程序是否發布這個通緝令而決定這個人是否成立犯罪的話這會影響同樣有逃亡藏匿的事實但不同的檢察官他也許他的檢查行政程序快慢會影響這個人是否構成脫逃罪或是否構成妨礙司法公正罪所以我們比較建議是說"},{"start":20564.241,"end":20582.811,"text":"這個條文的構成要件不要以是否發布通緝令這一個行政措施來作為它的構成要件而以這被告的客觀行為是否有逃亡跟藏匿這個事實來當作它是否構成脫逃罪跟這一個法案司法公正罪的相關的規定這是第一點"},{"start":20583.832,"end":20609.443,"text":"第二點剛剛我們委員有提到的就是說羅委員跟謝委員都有一個重罪脫逃是否要加重的規定的確沒有錯會如委員所講的本罪跟脫逃罪它畢竟是兩個不同的罪而且是不同的審理主體審判者在進行審理你也許本罪的進行速度是比較慢的脫逃罪已經判決了"},{"start":20610.765,"end":20627.768,"text":"他如何認定他本罪是不是所犯是重罪或三年以上的罪當脫逃罪判的時候本罪根本還沒判他要不要加重如果不加重搞不好又上訴甚至脫逃罪確定之後又反覆的提起再審反覆的循環"},{"start":20629.167,"end":20645.339,"text":"所以你用本罪的重罪來決定他是否脫逃罪的加重就會我剛剛講的這個法律上的問題那剛剛我們也一直非常在意的就是說那脫逃罪自我脫逃的部分他刑責比較輕的部分"},{"start":20646.32,"end":20673.045,"text":"在我們原來脫逃罪161跟162的架構上他的確他兩個刑度是不一樣他的確是當時在立法設計上他是涉及到一個自我脫逃者他一個期待可能性比較低所以他在刑責的設計上我現在講原來161跟163所以原來的刑責他是一年以下那縱放的人是三年以下他的確是一個期待可能性的一個考量以上補充 謝謝黃委員"},{"start":20677.065,"end":20699.215,"text":"我具體建議齁剛剛那個市長啊表達法律見解非常的好我具體建議啊法務部有什麼建議條文就拿出來就把建議條文拿出來嘛坐在那邊空口說白話尊重你們的看法把你們建議條文拿出來啊連建議條文都拿不出來"},{"start":20703.19,"end":20720.787,"text":"這個我倒認同你坐在那邊在評論各個黨團的提案非常好啊非常好啊你法務部坐在那邊評論各個黨團各個委員的提案很好啊我是有一個最簡單的要求你條文拿出來嘛"},{"start":20722.145,"end":20734.336,"text":"你如果條文拿不出來你如果條文拿不出來那沒有辦法啦立法院沒辦法再等你的啦我再說一次等得夠久了等好幾年了啦等好幾年了啦法務部可以混成這樣喔沒有必要繼續等你們啦我具體建議喔"},{"start":20746.789,"end":20752.495,"text":"161 161-1保留繼續往下走不要在這邊繼續在那邊虛耗時間了我具體建議161 161-1保留繼續往下走請主席採決當黃委員提出來大家都有聽到那就請從召位"},{"start":20768.079,"end":20781.571,"text":"主席我想司法法制委員會大家合意大家充分討論講完話就離開然後回來又說大家在延宕討論那要馬上就處理我是覺得大家充分討論難道不是我們委員會應該做的責任嗎"},{"start":20783.154,"end":20803.81,"text":"那為什麼老師都認為只要別人講話就是拖延時間至於講話就是大小聲我先不評論這種情緒性的發言我還是回到版本這邊因為這裡面還涉及到體力的問題明明民眾黨團的版本他們把161跟161之一別人用161表達的他拆分成兩條"},{"start":20805.171,"end":20826.529,"text":"所以當我們在審視整個條文對照表的時候我們很用心的去把它做對照之後發現有這個體力上的差異然後然後這裡還有什麼差異呢我們看到民眾黨團呢他們待會如果這一條不管怎麼處理假設待會往前推進還有第十章之一妨礙司法公正罪那這第十章之一放在哪裡呢放在161條跟161之一中間啊就是說這個脫逃罪呢這個他們認定呢"},{"start":20832.319,"end":20841.967,"text":"不是妨礙司法公正但是如果有161條之一的行為就是妨礙司法公正這是我從體力上我去理解"},{"start":20843.015,"end":20870.388,"text":"民眾黨團版本它的設計但是我們仔細看一下刑法當中我們現在講的脫逃罪是第八章到161到163是脫逃罪到了第九章 藏匿人犯及殷滅證據罪這是164條再往下走到167條第十章是未證及誣告罪然後第十章之一原來就要插在後面的第十章之後在公共危險罪之前"},{"start":20871.038,"end":20889.466,"text":"那公共危險罪是從173條開始啊那我們現在161條後面就跑出一個妨礙司法公正罪然後再來是161條之一那我真的因為真的我不是大學不是法律課班學習的我真的有點不能疑惑說如果我是一個一般的人民"},{"start":20890.086,"end":20916.199,"text":"我有一般的良好的教育的授訓那我來看這個條文多數的人應該是像我們這樣子啊很少大概沒什麼機會上法院嘛但是開始遇到要上法院了很緊張啊趕快去買一本六法全書來翻一翻啊就開始在理解說欸那我到底可能觸犯什麼罪呢好啦那我們來繼續看為什麼這些委員的版本有這些差別盧委員有兩個版本盧委員的版本呢他基本上呢他是這個"},{"start":20918.866,"end":20939.232,"text":"對不起啊 它是161條 它沒有看到它有具體的要另訂一個妨礙司法公正罪但是呢 它在另外一個版本當中呢 有有第37章妨礙司法公正罪 後面才跑出364條那我先姑且不論 因為前面羅遠的兩個版本目前在161條的脫逃罪當中 它是一個版本"},{"start":20939.992,"end":20961.863,"text":"那後面妨礙司法公正是另外一個版本但是我們其他的委員洪孟凱的委員他並沒有妨礙司法公正的這個設計謝一鳳委員也沒有妨礙司法公正的設計但是林思敏委員有他的設計是什麼他在第十章之一也是妨礙司法公正但是他就直接從第161條開始算"},{"start":20963.737,"end":20984.099,"text":"他從161條開始整個後面他認為是妨礙司法公正張明就這樣寫啊結果第十章之一呢會取代我們脫逃罪嗎我真的也不能理解了那至於呢抱歉啊 昭偉主席啊您呢也是有一個妨礙司法公正的罪章在第十章之一但是呢你後面的條文呢是從172條之一開始起算"},{"start":20985.836,"end":21012.012,"text":"那172條我們看看172條的確是第十章未證據誣告罪所以呢您的確是不愧是專業訓練的您的妨害司法公正罪是緊接在第十章之後172條之後您增列了一個172條之一前面加個第十章之一的章名看起來目前各個版本當中就我這樣的去研讀就是您的體力上最清楚最完整"},{"start":21012.572,"end":21028.445,"text":"但是你的體力當中其實你的一七二之一不是所謂的棄保潛逃所以我們講到棄保潛逃我們都認為他是妨礙司法公正但是各個委員司法公正的版本當中第十章之一是排在第十章的"},{"start":21029.58,"end":21050.019,"text":"委政及誣告罪之後所以我真的是不懂因為真的畢竟我沒有受過純粹的大學科班的法律訓練我跟一般的國民我們拿到一個立法權書我們去翻讀刑法的內容之後我們會有這個疑惑所以今天我們當我們在談161條的時候有這麼多的版本含釋的範圍有的被拆分在兩條有的甚至拆分在兩章"},{"start":21051.358,"end":21074.263,"text":"一個是在脫逃罪當中一個是跳到第十章之一那這個第十章之一又夾雜在161條跟161之一當中那161之後又有另外兩個章節所以我不曉得這個法條剛剛莊委員一早就說了莊委員一早就說我們這樣的立法的一個品質未來一般國民他怎麼去理解去解讀"},{"start":21075.731,"end":21101.966,"text":"不要我們這邊認真的詳細的要完備法令就說在拖延時間或許我想法學專業我想在座很多高深見解的人我希望能夠解惑啊用一般國民的法感一般國民對文字對法條的理解跟掌握能力我們看到這些版本讓我有一些問號或許呢這個問號根本不存在或許法學專家馬上說啊這個很正常啊我們立法就會這樣子啊那是不是能夠說明一下"},{"start":21105.353,"end":21127.951,"text":"翁小林委員我想從今天早上到現在對於這部法裡面所提出的兩個重要的罪一個棄保潛逃跟防害司法公正罪其實大家已經討論很多那本來這個有關於法條的設計就是有不同的委員有不同的想法這涉及到法體例的問題"},{"start":21128.752,"end":21153.497,"text":"但是也沒有說哪一個版本是特別好或者是有特別的有很嚴重的問題那既然就說大家現在其實對於這樣子的一個條文的大方向都認為沒有問題那麼只是在一些比較這個細節的部分或體力的部分認為要看怎麼調整那麼討論那麼久也沒有共識我建議是不是這兩條就送保留協商"},{"start":21158.996,"end":21173.378,"text":"那翁委員是提說既然沒有共識的話就保留 請問黃大仲委員我從早上到現在喔我沒有一個條文我是在拖延啦我是既然是主條的話你今天七個版本嘛"},{"start":21174.119,"end":21198.383,"text":"那有所有的委員的條文你去把它做一個討論是合理嘛那你從第一項開始然後到我從台灣民眾黨台灣民眾黨條文版本的一個設計是161條然後到161條之一這個也都合理只是說我們在討論這個條文的時候你像比如說謝一鳳委員還有羅志強在場羅志強委員你的版本我也在一條一條在跟你們做一個討論啊那你討論到現在來看的話你說第一項"},{"start":21202.924,"end":21223.938,"text":"第一項你說大家討論了這麼久了大家沒有辦法有共識 那個我沒意見但問題是你接下來像譬如說羅志強委員他的第三最後一項的一個設計裡面他是說第五項的設計他說逃逆被告涉犯罪金本行這個三年以上有期徒刑的之罪而脫逃者加重刑刑到二分之一"},{"start":21224.838,"end":21252.131,"text":"你當然要好好給他做討論啊連這一項我們都還沒有去做一個討論啊那我剛提到的就是說你如果是一個脫逃或者是棄保潛逃的人這樣的一個犯罪嫌疑人還在偵查跟審判當中那你並沒有受到一個有罪判決的一個確定那你這個條文的設計是說你如果涉犯到最輕本刑三年以上的你要加重期刑二分之一好啦那如果這個本罪到最後他所涉犯的部分他"},{"start":21253.388,"end":21264.039,"text":"是無罪的他是無罪的或者說最後審理的結果他不是涉及到三年以上的好啦那你後面你說要加重激情二分之一前後是不是要去講清楚這個是我的問題啊所以連這一項我們都還沒有討論你就說這個沒有共識是還沒有討論到"},{"start":21270.666,"end":21284.531,"text":"所以歐委員這個倒不是說我拖延我從早上到現在這一個條文的審本法案的時候我是很認真的從法理上從體力上還有從整個罪責的一個原理提出來大家共同的做一個討論毫無拖延的一個企圖在"},{"start":21289.5,"end":21316.658,"text":"好主席抱歉我做個修正抱歉剛剛因為自己手上的版本跟我們委員會的正式版本有些出入所以必須對剛剛的發言做個修正其實如果我們根據我們委員會整理的這個正式版本第十九頁的確呢台灣民眾黨團的第十章之一是放在172條之一之前這體制上並沒有不對抱歉剛剛我的因為自己手上的版本的順序的錯誤造成了這個誤解那另外羅委員的部分呢他37章"},{"start":21317.859,"end":21337.159,"text":"他也是在364條之前這也是沒有問題那剛剛對於林思明委員跟對於這個林委員的部分呢也是在他的172條之前面所以呢剛剛的有點錯誤的對我們的總召委啊過度的期待我發現在我手上的版本好像只有吳召委的張銘杰明是落在正確的位置"},{"start":21337.739,"end":21366.944,"text":"忽略了其他委員的版本在編排的體力上按照我們本委員會所提供的會議資料的確都無誤那這一點剛剛的發言內容有吸引個人上的誤解那對我們之前各個提案委員的版本如果造成困擾很抱歉那我這邊做個修正 謝謝那請問還有意見要補充嗎因為剛剛翁委員是認為說大家如果沒有共識的話就是因為我們剛剛討論的是161跟161之一嘛那是不是這兩個條文就沒有共識就先保留了"},{"start":21368.926,"end":21395.353,"text":"但我們剛剛討論的範圍其實是包括161跟161-1啦所以是兩條囉但是我會主條決議我會主條決議好那這樣齁那就因為大家沒有共識齁那所以161條那個趙委我剛剛那個問題啊是羅智強委員那個部分那個第五項的部分啦我們既然在討論嘛來聽聽看法務部的看法這也都很合理啦"},{"start":21396.944,"end":21422.325,"text":"莊委員的意思是希望法務部表示意見對吧請問次長你有意見要表示嗎剛剛委員其實這題我剛剛有回答了就是說你本罪的部分是重罪逃亡的話要加重二分之一的話會涉及到一個循環論證的問題就是說你逃亡的時候你根本不曉得他本罪也許根本還沒成立或者根本還沒判決那如何去決定他是否所犯是最重本刑三年以上之罪"},{"start":21423.206,"end":21440.186,"text":"也許這第一點第二點他是不同的法官下了判決也許逃亡罪已經下判決的時候他本罪還沒有下判決所以他不會加重二分之一可是到後來他本罪下判決是不是要對他逃亡罪提起上訴或者甚至是再審的可能性呢"},{"start":21440.762,"end":21454.242,"text":"所以你把本罪跟逃亡罪做一個連結的話就會產生一個循環論證的可能性因為我在逃亡罪論罪的時候我根本不曉得他所犯的罪本罪是否是最重三年以上之罪"},{"start":21456.466,"end":21484.015,"text":"這個就是憲道委員 方國昌委員剛剛跟你們講的啊你們沒辦法 你們在評論上 我就不知道啊我說完之後 我是在對他質疑 你們又變評論了這整個 發生什麼事了好 那就謝謝次長因為次長剛剛說的 我想民眾黨這邊應該也都有聽到了好 那既然這樣 因為大家沒有共識那剛剛歐委員也有提議那所以我們161條 因為雙方沒有共識我們就先予以保留"},{"start":21485.175,"end":21509.65,"text":"那161之1一樣因為我們剛剛討論範圍是集於161之1所以那161之1目前也都沒有共識那我們本條先予以保留那接下來我們審查第163條之2那請問一下各位委員有意見要提出在第19頁"},{"start":21517.399,"end":21545.589,"text":"黃委員我那個尊重王孟愷委員的提案那是不是有必要自首或自動大案減輕或民族激興是不是先請機關代表稍微講一下因為我的習慣那個委員提案在這邊嘛那雖然人不在那但我也覺得不要那麼快把人家丟包先聽聽看主管機關的看法是什麼謝謝黃委員那其他委員有沒有問題要提出好 總委員"},{"start":21547.05,"end":21565.639,"text":"好 謝謝因為經過這樣的一個整理討論之後我們發現雖然剛剛因為我專注在民進黨黨團的提案發現別的版本的161是放在民進黨黨團它是用161跟161-1來表達但是當我們看到了洪本凱委員他的161-1他後面還有一個161-2所以這兩個併起來就變成說我們現在在處理161-1變成有兩個版本"},{"start":21574.229,"end":21576.713,"text":"一個是洪孟凱委員他的161-1跟161-2那一個是民眾黨黨團的版本是161-1"},{"start":21582.762,"end":21602.147,"text":"那換言之就會變成交錯的部分別的委員的161呢民進黨黨團是用161跟161-1那麼民進黨黨團的161-1呢放在洪孟靜委員的是161-1跟161-2那我是想要做這個163吧你看一下163對不起163-1好那這樣的話那我同意那麼就是說因為我們161-1跟163-1要並條文來討論嗎因為後面還有個-2"},{"start":21610.816,"end":21621.786,"text":"因為有一個163-2所以為什麼我們說這個調次會讓我們在閱讀的時候呢中召委員跟你報告一下是163-2163-1跟163-2對再請中召委員確認一下我瞭解就是說161-1的民進黨黨團版本對到洪孟愷委員的是163-1但是洪孟愷委員的163-1還有163-2"},{"start":21634.358,"end":21642.084,"text":"那剛剛謝謝黃委員的說明他說他尊重黃委員的163之2所以我們現在我在討論的是說我在說明的是說我們現在討論因為主席說要兩條一塊嘛你剛剛不是說兩條一起嗎我們剛剛討論是兩條一起那個跟中朝委報告黃孟愷的163之1其實是併161之1我們剛剛也沒這樣講啊"},{"start":21655.612,"end":21682.409,"text":"你剛剛只說161跟161-1啊所以我完全是遵照我們張偉您的程序嘛所以我就說張偉因為您表達在程序上的推進您是一條或者兩條那你現在兩條並了之後呢我們發現另外一個版本的163-1會跑到跟你剛剛已經說宣布要交付保留的161-1又同一個內容的規範內容但是人家後面還有一個163-2嘛是不是這樣子這樣沒有錯吧"},{"start":21685.543,"end":21699.609,"text":"我這樣理解主席的這個議程的安排有沒有錯誤那個 宋少偉齁還是你從對照表那裡看 因為我這邊有一份啦還是你有需要這一份OK OK 那可以 那可以我們這樣 有助於我們討論啦對 因為這一份上面很清楚了謝謝 謝謝黃委員怎麼樣"},{"start":21702.558,"end":21726.056,"text":"這件事情沒那麼複雜我們在審條文的時候有的時候委員不一樣的條號就會併在同一個欄位討論所以才會做這個對照表對照表一看就知道我們的161之一對的就是侯孟楷的163之一你說立法院在審法案的時候條號條次到最後都在順過一次"},{"start":21729.938,"end":21748.743,"text":"這大家都知道的事情嘛那我剛剛在講的 洪孟愷的163之一 他其實在對的是看實質的內容 什麼叫實質的內容就是前面跟161之一 相同欄位的163之一如果發生 就構成要件"},{"start":21750.219,"end":21769.79,"text":"它所構成的犯罪事實有自首或自動報案檢驗或免除期刑它是編在163之2那就去對它163之1嘛如果到時候順過的是161之1這個就直接再把它順成是161之2嘛我現在重點我不是在那邊對數字啦"},{"start":21771.431,"end":21795.892,"text":"在世華法治委員會討論法案的時候在那邊對數字非常可笑啊看實質的內容是有閱讀障礙嗎就請你看實質的內容就好了嘛那是不是可以先請法務部表示他們的看法看法務部是同意還是不同意還是有不一樣的見解那給各位委員做參考好 那個莊委你是要1616"},{"start":21798.817,"end":21815.307,"text":"會議詢問,程序詢問,不是,我要了解,因為我們立法是嚴謹的,因為事後啊,議事人員聽我們的會議記錄,其實剛剛主席宣告的是什麼?您是說161保留嗎?還是161跟161之一保留?因為我不清楚剛剛的宣告"},{"start":21820.03,"end":21837.526,"text":"我有看到 我是詢問主席 我是會議詢問您剛剛的宣告是什麼我們剛剛宣告的就是第一個161條 保留那161之一呢161之一也是保留 兩個是分開宣告我瞭解 那請問我們現在如果161之一保留了"},{"start":21838.206,"end":21865.444,"text":"跟他類似的163之一那我們就是繼續討論囉是這意思嗎?沒有啊這163之一就是B161之一嘛啊你剛剛說是保留161之一不是啊那個那個163之二不一樣的東西啦張偉163之二是不一樣的東西啦宣告要清楚啦163之二確實是不一樣的東西如果有人不了解立法歷程喔我想就是去外面休息一下沒關係但是這個跟你的宣告有關係同樣都當過"},{"start":21867.189,"end":21895.265,"text":"趙偉根主席的 您的宣告要清楚這個部分 既然避免造成誤會因為我本來的想法很簡單14月15月寫得非常的清楚序號2 增訂第161條版本有台灣民眾黨黨團提案以及委員洪孟凱等22人提案之163條之1予以保留"},{"start":21898.191,"end":21898.777,"text":"對對對現在宣告"},{"start":21900.779,"end":21930.043,"text":"一六三之二就不討論了一六三之二繼續討論那一六三之一不討論嗎一六三之二本來就不同的條文我知道但是一六三之一剛剛我們都在看民進黨黨團一六一之一我們沒有我們是剛剛的討論是包含了一六三之三剛剛我們我瞭解我們不是每個人手上都有一份嗎我瞭解所以我要確認主席的宣告所以您剛剛的宣告是一六一之一民進黨黨團的並同洪孟楷委員的一六三之一都保留洪孟楷委員的他就並一六一之一"},{"start":21930.723,"end":21948.928,"text":"跟161-1並同保留嘛OK 確認一下 要不然免得我們後續再討論謝謝鐘召委那我們詳細說明也是我的義務好 那現在我們審查序號第三委員洪孟凱等22人提案增訂第163條之二請問各位委員有無意見有好 那鐘委員"},{"start":21957.063,"end":21969.768,"text":"謝謝趙偉其實我覺得法務部可以再大膽一點畢竟你們也是主責的一個機關不要有些條文尊重有些條文其實你們講的就是反對那你們就講了一大堆的一個說理"},{"start":21971.168,"end":21999.374,"text":"最主要當然是沒有版本我也知道原因那163條之二我倒來請教就是說犯前條之罪而自首或自動到案者減輕或免除期刑本來條文就沒有這樣的一個設計它這個就變成說犯這個罪它這個似乎是已經是後半段又另外一個罪你本來是因為本罪而被逮捕"},{"start":22000.838,"end":22026.791,"text":"涉嫌犯下哪一個罪名哪一個罪章被逮捕以後在公權力機關他的掌握之下那你自行去把他脫逃掉這個本來的一個條文設計你就要處罰那我們現在只是來加重而已可是呢 你說犯了這條罪又去自首又去或者說又去自動到案者減輕或者免除期刑這個條文設計上事實上這樣會很奇怪"},{"start":22033.427,"end":22054.467,"text":"好像看起來是通你自己來的你來自首的然後或者說你自動到案的要幫你檢一下是合理可是這個條文的設計因為已經涉及到是你犯了罪被抓到然後又脫逃的然後又回來的一直尬尬這樣叫做自首還是自動到案聽起來覺得很奇怪是不是聽一下你的高見"},{"start":22056.823,"end":22071.834,"text":"好那麻煩次長說明好那關於洪委員這一條我們本我們是認為就是說要有一個時間上的一個控制因為犯脫逃罪而自首或自動當然要讓他減輕或免除期刑你如果沒有一個時間的控制的話那"},{"start":22073.263,"end":22093.799,"text":"是不是在每一審審級他都有可能自動歸...脫逃罪他有可能上...因為他被告如果沒有到庭的話在身體檢疫判決處刑的話被告是不會到庭的這個時候他上訴到二審他才回來這時候要不要讓他檢所以他要有一個譬如說在什麼時候之前或偵查中或者一審判決裁判前而自動歸案"},{"start":22095.661,"end":22120.142,"text":"才符合一個減刑或免除期刑規定的第一個 一定要有一個時間的限制第二點 它的效果是減輕或免除期刑我們自首 我們行法律的時候 自首規定是得檢但這裡是最優惠到避檢甚至可以達到免除期刑的程度那跟自首的 或甚至自動歸案是不是法律上給它太大的一個優惠了"},{"start":22121.923,"end":22144.322,"text":"所以在法律效果的部分其實我們也比較保留因為他是避檢跟避免另外時間的部分可能也要加一個時間上的一個限制在什麼時候之前他自動歸案我們才讓他有一些優惠我是不是請次長你明白的表達一般刑事犯罪裡面你說自白"},{"start":22146.596,"end":22161.972,"text":"你自白的覺得你這個人有悔悟法院就說給你輕一點你說自首了大家都不知道你自己跑出來了給你更大的一個優惠你現在不是你現在是創設了一個更大的優惠變成我們又創設一個比自首更優惠的"},{"start":22168.413,"end":22193.052,"text":"法務部你們真的會接受嗎我是覺得你的語意比較我聽起來你是反對的啊可是你今天都沒有表達你的意思啊你要贊成我也沒有意見我才說請你這個專業的主政機關你們大膽的表達你們的意見自白本來就要減了那自首減更多也都合理啊我的意思你現在又把它創設一個比自首更大的一個空間的這對還是不對"},{"start":22196.796,"end":22208.449,"text":"根文報告 在整個立法的設計上 脫逃罪 基本上他提到一個期待可能性的問題被告脫逃某一個程度上他的期待可能性是比較低"},{"start":22216.698,"end":22232.06,"text":"多一條規定讓他脫倒之後能夠讓他有一個自動歸案之後一個減免的一個規定這基本上是做一個橫評但是這個說橫評的效果要把強到必減甚至到避免"},{"start":22233.058,"end":22247.592,"text":"我們是除一個比較保留的態度所以說如果各位覺得要讓他減我還是如同我剛剛的建議必須要有個時間多少之前歸案而且效果是得減而不是避減甚至不要到避免的程度"},{"start":22250.94,"end":22276.492,"text":"我不是要批評誰強豪之,我對於本條的想法我也覺得有一個地方蠻奇怪的就是163條,依據洪孟凱的看法,163條之二犯前喬治罪而自首或自動搭檔那所謂的自首在我國法律應該是偵查機關還不知犯罪的時候那如果今天是已經發布通緝了,那怎麼會有不知犯罪所以這部分確實這個條文規定我個人也覺得我不是批評"},{"start":22277.54,"end":22297.615,"text":"不是批評誰啦不要說我在做評論只是我自己看這條我表達我自己覺得有一點奇怪的地方黃委員建議本條保留那我想這一條大家也覺得都有意見嘛那是不是第一 洪孟凱"},{"start":22303.223,"end":22328.459,"text":"沒有啦 我這樣講啦第一個他人雖然沒有來我覺得還是給他一個尊重因為今天我們這些條文出委員會出委員會也不會做成任何決議啦我懂你的意思啦我的意思是說這個都跟我們在場的人大家的法的理念差距太大沒有啦 第二個是說就自首的部分當然跟現行法的自首要怎麼勾忌可以討論"},{"start":22329.56,"end":22354.838,"text":"但他所提的這個東西 並不是什麼 並不是說100%沒有可以踩我為什麼說不是100%沒有可以踩第一個事情是 你可以不要給他說 應免除其刑 這個效果太強烈了但 你對於跑掉的人 或違反命令的人 你要給他誘引那不是自不自首的問題 因為自不自首是在發覺犯罪以前嘛"},{"start":22355.885,"end":22381.093,"text":"但是你要給他誘因的話是如果他自己願意回來的話這時候得檢除期刑或許在整個法例跟制度的設計上面是一個比較好的安排啦剛剛次長講了半天我幫他翻譯啦我聽起來啦你們法務部事實上是做自動歸案的時候得檢除期刑這件事情你們事實上是往積極正面的方向在思考的啦"},{"start":22382.559,"end":22398.058,"text":"我有沒有抄議剛剛你講那麼一堆文綽綽話的意思等一下市長如果我講的不對你可以糾正我所以對不起黃衛原你剛剛抄議了我發言的內容我的意思是本條全部的內容都不可採"},{"start":22399.178,"end":22420.106,"text":"你就簡單講這句話還是你們認為說如果自己願意來歸案的話我自己跑回來了提高他的誘因給你一個得檢除期刑的空間這件事情法務部也是抱持正面積極的看法就剩這兩個選擇了那自首的部分就不用談了好 那總召委"},{"start":22424.68,"end":22449.411,"text":"謝謝啦有時候主席還蠻可愛的他就他檢察官的專業跟經驗會對我們這些盤本的內容提出一些看法跟指教有時候偶爾也會獲益啦那我是這樣聽起來覺得委員會的討論呢有它的正面性但是也需要再更進一步那似乎呢今天我們的詳細討論就有人認為說是在拖延那其實呢我們看到這樣的一個條項161 163之2其實呢提案委員不在"},{"start":22450.211,"end":22462.277,"text":"那大家現場也沒有人同意這樣的設計可是又有一個意見覺得說這個設計背後的思維就是要積極正向的希望這些脫逃罪的人能夠趕快的來歸案有這樣的意義在"},{"start":22465.518,"end":22492.588,"text":"那很好啊那我們不是經常在做修正動議嗎我們委員會的審查不是保留後交給院會之前的協商我們委員會就要細緻化這些討論的時候發現的問題設法予以完備化這不就是委員會中心主義的目的嗎如果連本委員會都沒有辦法針對163之2他雖然的文字描述在場沒有人認同同意沒有人同意這樣的寫法或者說覺得不太妥當"},{"start":22493.948,"end":22512.168,"text":"但是呢對於他的背後的精神似乎聽起來主管機關他也不排斥說我們應該積極正面的面對這些脫逃罪的人他可以不是自首他可以來到案那這種情況之下文字要怎麼設計就是本委員會的執掌啊我們主席是檢察官那這樣的條文設計怎麼寫比較好"},{"start":22514.611,"end":22531.661,"text":"不要總是到了朝野協商沒有結論到了院會前又針對委員會的版本突然啪一個修正動議再修正動議而當天的院會甚至連委員會的人都不曉得這個修正動議或再修正動議怎麼冒出來的那麼院會就要交付表決了"},{"start":22532.541,"end":22554.806,"text":"這是最惡劣的一個示範所以我是覺得如果能夠在委員會已經發掘問題了也任有必要了只是條文的文字設計可能未盡完善那這是我們要窮盡我們委員會眾多委員包括列席的主管機關的這樣的一個智慧我們要填充上去那當然我從意識上我這個意識上的程序我是可以理解"},{"start":22555.706,"end":22579.809,"text":"那麼如果我們把163163-2剛剛有莊委認為說我們就不予處理嘛的確沒有人同意啊就不予處理那有沒有補正的機會呢可能未來會是在161-1的時候有個修正動議把它另加一項對於這些自動到案的願意脫逃後又自動返回的我們予以一些誘因這當然也是可以我知道"},{"start":22580.45,"end":22604.025,"text":"那如果認為有這個必要,現在就可以修啊現在就可以就161-1,不過剛剛是保留了啦,抱歉剛剛161-1跟161都是保留那對於163-1也保留,那163-2這樣的機制,大家認為可行那是我建議主席,我們是不是把這個文字怎麼樣的表達比較完整可能洪孟愷委員的提案有他的用意"},{"start":22604.645,"end":22620.069,"text":"只是說在文字上呢他沒有辦法正確的掌握到有司法實務經驗的人他們認為這個條文怎麼寫才不會有一些漢格那我是誠懇的建議委員會既然開了既然有發現問題了就把它解決不要凡事就通通丟到朝野協商啦黃委員"},{"start":22625.46,"end":22649.685,"text":"這個法案大家有意見就表達有修正動議就提出來剛剛鍾嘉斌委員所講的內容我尊重他表達他意見和看法但大家只要回去看一下吹哨者保護法吹哨者保護法的時候那時候張偉是鍾嘉斌委員嗎他對於委員在這邊所討論的內容有不同的看法就保留啊就保留啊"},{"start":22650.76,"end":22670.173,"text":"全部都是保五流啊我的記憶非常的清楚啦不好意思那至於說到院會的時候突然提修正動議再修正動議 奇怪民進黨黨團針對崔少哲保護法的修正動議再修正動議不也是院會那天提出來的嗎"},{"start":22671.354,"end":22683.554,"text":"跟各個黨團有什麼不一樣每一個黨團到院會的時候提修正動議再修正動議本來就是這個樣子啊民進黨黨團的吹哨者保護法專案不也是這樣子提出來的嗎"},{"start":22684.949,"end":22702.556,"text":"而且這個是我們在立法院裡面有30年經驗的柯建民總召跟大家講的表決前一刻所提出來的版本才是最後黨團的立場柯建民總召在數次協商的時候都已經這樣子在教導我們這些在立法院的後輩"},{"start":22703.876,"end":22727.583,"text":"表決前一刻所提出來的版本才是最後的版本那更何況不要忘了去年7月16號的時候去年7月16號的時候針對柯真刑事訴訟法的條文請問民進黨是什麼時候拿出來的針對柯真刑事訴訟法的條文民進黨柯建民總召是在7月16號下午的時候才拿出來的"},{"start":22729.073,"end":22738.583,"text":"那天正在進行院會7月16號下午的時候民進黨才把他們的修正動議再修正動議形式訴訟法的條文拿出來所以回來這邊啦"},{"start":22742.028,"end":22768.742,"text":"每個黨團有自己的政治立場我們大家都尊重大家都尊重但是你如果要在發言在這個條文討論的過程當中去穿插著對其他黨團或者是委員恣意的批評或攻擊的話那這件事情就要講清楚啊就要講清楚啊當初在處理吹哨者保護法的時候概念就是做一排民進黨的委員啊"},{"start":22769.69,"end":22772.512,"text":"每一條都喊保留啊不是這樣嗎我講話對不對當天全部都有水選勢序去調出來看每個公民都會有他自己的評價每個公民都有他自己的評價所以有具體的提議162 163-2侯孟愷委員的提案予以保留"},{"start":22797.031,"end":22818.259,"text":"周委我是覺得這樣處理會比較不好的原因就是說這個黃國壯委員也可以聽一下啦他這個163條之二啊這個條文會啊我們審到現在我看也沒有人去贊同他啦那也確實跟法律違背啦你163條之二是在講說犯前條之罪那你前條之罪是在講說經過通緝以後"},{"start":22820.58,"end":22840.909,"text":"那你經過通緝以後你一百六十三條之二你又講說來自首你通緝完怎麼會自首嘛你就這個條文就設計不對我們給他保留只是讓他更下不了台而已啊這個條文設計我就覺得很奇怪啊就跟法理上我就一直講就怎麼做我就覺得太破天了啊那大家就沒有人贊同他這個條文就把他一六三之二就把他捨棄掉就好啦"},{"start":22851.411,"end":22852.875,"text":"因為163-2前條就是在講163-1163-1是在講說經過通緝以後通緝了怎麼還會再自首"},{"start":22862.145,"end":22886.335,"text":"哇 趙委員你這感覺你也很清楚啊你就已經通緝了是透過他就說要怎麼去自首這是我剛剛講的那個內容是嘛 說一樣嘛所以我們就卡到這個條文就是說我們都認為這個條文就是講錯了那審起來大家很沒有人贊同這樣還要保留這條也不可以用到其他的也不可以用到其他的其他的也都是保留啊 一樣的意思啊我不曉得特別留這一條的意思是怎麼樣黃委員"},{"start":22890.72,"end":22918.08,"text":"對 我想說因為大家討論這一條已經討論也很久那再加上就是聽了法務副次長其實對於這一條的訂定的修正的方向還是支持的那我也認為說其實大方向是支持的那之後保留之後未來如果在草野協商有在修正文字的可能性的話那我認為說還是可以把它修得更完整不過就這一條來講的話我建議還是就保留宋協商"},{"start":22920.558,"end":22944.9,"text":"其實一樣的意思啦保不保留比如說我們現在委員會說這條不予爭定啦你今天到院會的時候他還是會復活啦我只是在表達我的意思就是說163-2跟163-1兩個條文是衝突的嘛就歐委員你把它看嘛163-2是在講前條前條是在講經通緝然後經通緝以後你就要講自首要怎麼通緝之後後面還可以自首這我怎麼看我也看不到"},{"start":22949.384,"end":22971.436,"text":"我現在打給那個紅委員一下因為我剛剛打是沒有人接那個不好意思喔主席我剛剛有問一個問題可是儲管機關還沒有回答我的問題非常簡單第一個你整條反對還是自動到案得檢出期刑這個政策方向是同意的"},{"start":22972.356,"end":23001.321,"text":"事情沒這麼複雜不要全部混在一起嘛自首的部分用起來很怪剛剛大家都講完了嘛現在我care是自動報案的部分嘛所以就給法務部一個表達立場的機會第一個整條都不贊成就講整條都不贊成第二個自動報案得檢除即行法務部贊成這個方向那就講贊成這樣就好了嘛那就麻煩市長這邊能夠表示意見他就不說了"},{"start":23004.189,"end":23029.744,"text":"我給他智慧,他不講任何他的事我剛才其實有表達過,在特定時間之時間之前你自動的歸案,我講自動歸案不包括自首自動歸案接受他所託逃之罪的偵查審判或執行的話法律效果歸根成得檢,這個方向基本上我們是可以贊成"},{"start":23030.484,"end":23044.66,"text":"但是有一個問題這條是限於前條之罪是指棄保潛牢罪同樣的在一般的脫逃罪你也要同樣的有同樣的適用因為一般的脫逃罪你要鼓勵他回來嘛而不是只有棄保潛逃罪鼓勵他回來黃委員我建議這條保留"},{"start":23052.205,"end":23071.56,"text":"中委員我想不同意見因為委員會的審查還是要表達委員會對條文的錯誤當然不要說錯誤啦設計不夠完備的部分要指明啦那一般來講我們在院會裡面也是常常處理不予增訂啊那不予增訂難道未來沒有一個"},{"start":23072.563,"end":23094.751,"text":"完整的機會嗎?有嘛因為我們知道今天我們委員會的審查後續的審查到了初委員會之後其實只是只要有在今天我們一旦委員會有保留的話那意識上的程序未來朝鮮協商就是會協商那協商的時候如果大家覺得剛剛法務部的意見 剛剛委員的意見認為自動檔案有誘因"},{"start":23098.692,"end":23121.339,"text":"那這個時候不管是我們現在修正動議的時候表達委員的審查意見或者如果大家今天想不出來那我們到抄寫結算上一樣整包還是有機會啦所以我是覺得說今天我不是在爭議說對紅委員有意見而是這個條文經過大家反問的討論發現它設計上有問題那如果我們用保留那到底委員的意見是什麼"},{"start":23122.179,"end":23148.853,"text":"所以委員會意見保留是說大家有不同意見嘛不同意見會保留嘛委員會沒有辦法做成決定才會做保留但是委員會都認為這個條文的設計顯有這個不燙之處那我們就不予爭定但是剛剛所表達出來的意思鼓勵自動到案有誘因大家都覺得這個方向可行所以這個未來在草野協商的時候委員會有做出這樣的意思表達"},{"start":23150.117,"end":23178.593,"text":"朝野協商也好 院會才有辦法處理嘛還是再次提醒我們的召委我們是委員會中心主義委員會要比其他的委員更能夠了解條文的精神要對院會報告我們對這個條文的意見那如果一個有問題的條文設計我們是以有不同意見予以保留第一 與事實不符現場沒有不同意見嘛現場的都認為這個條文沒有人認同但是也沒有人否定你認同這個條文"},{"start":23180.094,"end":23204.887,"text":"我大部份方向我認同 我並沒有說認為完全不認同啊這就是我們剛剛為什麼講說要保留國民黨我這邊比較傾向於保留因為常常民進黨提出來的版本國民黨不同不是 我再講一個常常提出來的國民黨不同意到最後大家意見不一樣嘛他也覺得不需要訂 就好像你現在認為洪孟凱這個版本不需要訂那是不是我們就本條於保留嘛"},{"start":23205.347,"end":23232.354,"text":"因為之前都是這樣做啊那我們這個條文與保留那你說會不會讓洪文凱將來難看那我相信他一定會提出一個比較釋法的一些修正動議那請問主席那我們我當然尊重主席的宣告啦但是我要再表示說這個保留是發言的意見都認為條文的設計可能沒辦法達成條文的效果是這個意思啦好不好好啦那這樣子我們163之2"},{"start":23236.663,"end":23262.372,"text":"163-2洪孟凱等22人提案本條予以保留那我們現在審查增訂第10張之一張名有台灣民眾黨提案還有林思敏等16人提案以及吳宗憲等9人提案及羅志強委員等29人提案第37張請問一下就張名的部分各位有無意見"},{"start":23264.309,"end":23282.79,"text":"好 那沒有的話 是不是增訂第十章之一 張銘副主席那我們這樣我也可以保留 既然要保留通通保留我意思是說 今天我們保留要有動機嘛 是不是那妨礙司法公正 那既然 其實我們也可以不保留啦"},{"start":23283.909,"end":23298.182,"text":"但是我要表達說因為這個不保留其實到院會協商之前或者出委員會之後都還是有全部在討論的機會啦我只是用這個方式表達說您說第十章之一大家都同意就不保留那如果說保留效果都是一樣的嘛"},{"start":23298.863,"end":23308.133,"text":"所以我要跟主席說明的是說今天我們的議事審議要保留什麼就全部都保留 你的意思講說保留跟不保留都一樣張明應該不用這樣子啊張明大家應該有共識吧要保留就保留啊"},{"start":23317.348,"end":23338.083,"text":"他要保留就保留中委員張銘你們有認為要保留嗎?遇到剛能定義就是要全部保留的意思嘛是不是這樣子你們認為不管大家同意或沒有不同意全部都沒有同意的也保留全部都同意的當然也可以保留啊如果邏輯是這樣的話當然是可以這樣做啊全部都同意的就通過嘛"},{"start":23339.775,"end":23367.59,"text":"全部都同意啊但是保留啊好吧那既然大家有共識那張明的第十章之一張明部分就予以保留好那現在序號第四徵令第172條之一那版本有台灣民眾黨團提案林思明等16人提案其羅志強等29人提案第364條吳宗憲等19人提案請問就徵令第172條之一各位委員有意見補充"},{"start":23374.383,"end":23401.732,"text":"有意見沒有意見那就通過吧現在是大家沒意見要保留172之1第21頁那我再念一次有台灣民眾黨黨團提案第4名等16人提案吳宗憲等19人提案及羅志強等29人提案第37章"},{"start":23409.743,"end":23414.446,"text":"最後一個我講錯了是羅志強等29人提案第364條不好意思最後唸錯"},{"start":23428.632,"end":23451.147,"text":"沒有 看各位有無意見啊因為剛剛這個國民黨以及民眾黨已經表示他們沒有意見那民進黨團這邊有沒有意見我只是簡單的 剛中委員先舉手因為我還是要不好意思提醒主席因為您剛剛的話 意思說只要大家沒有不同意見就是要"},{"start":23452.284,"end":23479.816,"text":"要通過嗎因為這幾個條文當中364完全條次不同啊內容也差異很大你一股腦的把所有的版本都唸過我們剛剛在講第十章之一章名的部分剛剛講完不是保留了嗎對剛剛那個已經保留了嘛172之一嘛對現在172之一我們到現在都還沒有任何決議出來所以你剛剛問的是說大家有沒有意見剛剛主席問我們我們就都同意了嘛"},{"start":23480.759,"end":23482.265,"text":"同意什麼?同意一切二之一"},{"start":23488.114,"end":23517.057,"text":"這邊我們都同意不是啦我問說大家有沒有意見要補充然後他們說沒有是這樣子我剛剛的問等一下你們先聽我說我剛剛說各位有意見要補充然後國民黨以及民眾黨團說沒有那現在就請問民進黨團這邊有意見要補充這不要去亂亂去凹到那邊去啦我的問題剛剛很清楚還是莊委員"},{"start":23521.571,"end":23524.627,"text":"172條之一 你說對於證人跟鑑定人同意心"},{"start":23525.782,"end":23549.375,"text":"我老公當然是有不一樣的看法還是要來問一下啦他的這個規範他當然有他規範的他一定的一個道理存在啦那只是說同樣的我們會碰到你整個條文其實等會跟等一下之二之三那一併要去看的啦那你就變成你又把它增加一個一年以上七年以下有期徒刑跟併割一百萬的一個罰金"},{"start":23552.657,"end":23569.753,"text":"那你去把它去做一個比較其他委員跟林思明委員的一個看法的時候這個其實行動的規範也都有所不同甚至於我們吳宗憲委員你的行動的設計也會有所不同"},{"start":23570.353,"end":23588.188,"text":"那同樣的侵犯到的法例其實都是一樣啦那我不曉得我們法務部對這樣的一個刑度的一個安排啊我從早上講到現在都一直在講罪責的問題啊那個整個這不是親家親家的總是要給他們表達一下他們的一個看法啦好 那麻煩次長"},{"start":23592.91,"end":23609.651,"text":"關於這個一切二之一我們是認為我們就刑責的部分我們目前一貫的立場就是妨礙司法公正相關的罪章我們都希望他的刑責是在三年以下去徒刑所以關於這一部分一年以上七年以下的刑責的部分各個不同刑責辦請並考量這第一點"},{"start":23610.271,"end":23637.128,"text":"第二點條文很多版本的條文都是有的用翻譯的用通譯有的用傳譯那事實上我們的這個正確用沒有翻譯這個法律上的用語所以這個過程要建上是不是要做一個修正第三個這個對這行賄的主體是證人鑑定人那有沒有他的這個密切關係就證人他的密切關係之人對他行賄要不要也要並同的有相關的行則的"},{"start":23637.668,"end":23651.615,"text":"的這個處罰 那以上幾點建議 謝謝我先請教次長一個問題喔 次長剛有提到翻譯跟通譯兩個字嘛那我想請教一下次長 通譯是名詞還是動詞通譯是名詞 我們用傳譯 動詞是傳譯傳譯 好 謝謝請問柯委員有沒有其他意見好 黃委員"},{"start":23662.871,"end":23688.376,"text":"法務部都172條之一書面報告兩次寫得很清楚基本上就是贊同這個條文你們唯一有疑慮的只有刑度的部分如果條文本身暫存了刑度的部分他有不一樣的看法我建議172條之一就保留請問各位還有沒有其他的意見"},{"start":23690.128,"end":23711.661,"text":"好那如果沒有意見的話那172條之一我們就予以保留好那接下來我們審查排序5增訂第172條之二版本有台灣民眾黨團提案第172條之二林思敏等16人提案第172條之二好請問各位有無意見補充好黃委員"},{"start":23716.67,"end":23725.957,"text":"那個我要確定一下法務部的意見就是說第一個針對我們172條之二"},{"start":23728.76,"end":23751.321,"text":"所謂的要件設計我看你們的書面報告基本上也是競表同意嘛你們有意見的就是一樣是刑度的部分嘛覺得三上十下是不是會太重我先確認法務部的立場是不是這個樣子因為我其實次長坐在這邊我們今天整天這樣詢問他下來你應該心裡很清楚啦"},{"start":23752.482,"end":23776.728,"text":"世界國際會議做了什麼決議你們2019年提了什麼版本的條文出來我當初在炒你台灣民眾黨黨團的版本的時候我全部都看過了我全部都看過我在法定行會去做調整當然有我在法定行做調整立法者政策決斷上面的考量因為行為太樣就不太一樣嘛"},{"start":23777.836,"end":23803.27,"text":"所以現實上面在法定行的時候我會有不一樣的設計法務部有不一樣的看法我也尊重因為到目前為止公開的資訊裡面你們部的立場最完整的就是2019年出來的那你剛剛從今天早上到現在你推了很多是在行政院院會討論有不同的看法其實我相信我深信"},{"start":23804.591,"end":23825.948,"text":"法務部裡面專業調部辦事的檢察官也很清楚這部法律為什麼在行政院院會延宕那麼久前一任政務委員是誰負責的有的時候在那邊拖延律師出身的"},{"start":23827.185,"end":23850.54,"text":"政務委員從他自己本身的利害關係去做拖延我話是不要講太白講太白就難聽了啦有很多在關心這部法律刑事訴訟法的老師大家都很清楚啊大家都快聽不下去了給一個政務委員這麼大的權力他一個人就可以把一個這樣重要的法案給攬糊喔沒有這回事啊"},{"start":23856.091,"end":23877.132,"text":"現在那位政務委員下台了,現在換林明欣嘛看林明欣有什麼樣的意見,趕快提出來啊法務部也回去跟行政院講啊,跟林明欣講啊立法院這邊在審法案,過去等了好幾年,等了夠久了我們是絕對不會再等下去的從吹哨者保護法到才化法"},{"start":23878.103,"end":23904.14,"text":"我相信行政院現在應該要非常清楚的知道立法院的決心了有什麼意見趕快提協商階段通通都可以等你反正今天出委員會下個會期法案會期才會正式辦到檯面上你們還有時間但你們如果自始至終還是一樣給皮皮我就是不提版本我就是不提版本那對不起了"},{"start":23906.616,"end":23922.237,"text":"那最後立法院該做的事情我們還是會做不會因為你們而停下腳步他們現在都忙著提副議那如果就172條之二的部分來 莊委員"},{"start":23924.025,"end":23951.726,"text":"我還是就條文的來實質來跟各位就教跟討論172條之二台灣民眾黨是說意圖使證人不為證言或意圖使鑑定人不為鑑定或意圖使同意不為翻譯那加一個騷擾本人配偶執域寫清或三親整內的旁域寫清他是科處三年以下得併科30萬以下的一個罰金我從這個提案裡面"},{"start":23953.487,"end":23978.729,"text":"提案說明立法理由裡面講得很清楚啦他說所謂的騷擾是指警告嘲弄辱罵歧視仇恨或者貶義或其他相類似的言語或動作透過監視跟蹤盯騷其他方式等等處三年以下有歧途刑那以下就是我的問題啦那如果說你騷擾行為是這樣子的你就變成要三年以下有歧途刑的話"},{"start":23981.107,"end":23996.461,"text":"很類似於我們刑法第305條的恐嚇那騷擾的行為你相對於305條的是強暴 脅迫 恐嚇的強制行為那兩個法例你去把它做一個比較的話"},{"start":23998.142,"end":24025.989,"text":"這個反而是你恐嚇罪它是比較嚴重的那你騷擾的妨礙行為在立法說明當中你講的這些你把它具體的明示出來以後那你來比較現在的目前的刑法305條的過程要見的話你恐嚇的部分又是兩年以下強暴脅迫這樣的強制行為你是兩年以下那你低於強暴脅迫的強制行為的"},{"start":24027.191,"end":24054.077,"text":"這樣的一個行為太陽你卻認為是三年以下這個我又不懂了這今天我全部都被卡到這個地方是不是可以台灣民眾黨來做一個說明或者說請法務部這個地方也可以一併來讓我稍微讓我這個主色的腦袋瓜可以稍微暢通一下好 謝謝那因為委員彼此之間並沒有質詢的權利啦那就是我們直接請次長這邊說明"},{"start":24058.951,"end":24076.253,"text":"這條對證人做的哪些行為必須要把它入刑化這部分呢的確會有這個剛剛講的問題各個版本其實都不一樣那這第一個問題那第二個問題就騷擾的部分它的定性未來會不會產生一個明確性的問題那也是我們覺得比較"},{"start":24077.233,"end":24105.184,"text":"覺得未來給他擔心的什麼叫騷擾行為因為他畢竟會有一個刑責三年以下有期徒刑所以就騷擾的部分是不是要加其他的構成要件把它更明確化但是這個整個法的方向入罪化這方向我們是贊成的不是啊 那我就問你嘛你們當初172條之三刑法研修小組把條文提出來的時候你們法務部的版本172條之三的第一款不就是騷擾"},{"start":24107.216,"end":24125.775,"text":"我有講錯嗎啊你們當初刑法研修條文的時候那些刑法的大家是怎麼過這個構成要件的啊怎麼今天坐在這邊對騷擾這兩個詞又有意見了騷擾這個詞是新概念嗎它也不是新的概念啊"},{"start":24129.764,"end":24149.1,"text":"那我建議這條保留啦請問各位還有沒有其他意見市長還沒有給我說明一下我是覺得法務部應該確實要說明一下啦就是比較強度的反而比較低啦那比較強制性沒有那麼強的反而行動會比較高你真的都沒有疑慮嗎"},{"start":24150.935,"end":24168.047,"text":"所以這部分在我剛才其實有提啦所以證人做怎麼樣的行為必須要入刑化那恐嚇這個行為他一樣其實也是可以考慮在這條裡面加入對他恐嚇的話因為我們一般的恐嚇是處兩年以下有期徒刑嘛這邊就恐嚇他證人的部分可以把他加到三年以下的有期徒刑去做處理"},{"start":24170.558,"end":24196.882,"text":"就不會產生剛才莊委員所講的我一般恐嚇反而是兩年以下是 恐嚇反而是幾種比較強制我用強暴脅迫的方式是兩年以下啊我不用用到強制強暴脅迫的方式我只要騷擾反而變三年以下但是有幾個委員版本他是後面有加一個做其他犯罪行為去加重二分之一啦如果這條不把規定恐嚇進來的話其他犯罪行為也可以加重二分之一"},{"start":24199.194,"end":24219.609,"text":"好 黃委員有這樣的意見我一併回覆啦以台灣民眾黨黨團的立場172之2跟172之3兩個你必須要結合起來看你如果透過那個行為本身會構成刑事犯罪行為的話譬如說你恐嚇他你脅迫他"},{"start":24220.748,"end":24246.455,"text":"有構成另外的刑事犯罪行為到恐嚇罪或到強制罪的射程範圍的時候我們是規範在172條之3就加重起刑二分之一那172條之2我為什麼用騷擾騷擾在現行法就沒處罰嘛我今天一天到晚騷擾莊瑞雄只要不是跟性有關係我騷擾你沒有人會認為跟性有關係嘛"},{"start":24248.24,"end":24269.836,"text":"只有那個跟蹤法那個什麼跟蹤什麼跟蹤法 防治法裡面那個跟騷法裡面現在有很多什麼新聞報導或評論或欽差一下下欸跟騷法是要跟性有關係欸今天莊惠熊在我的案子裡要作證我一天到晚去騷擾你有犯法嗎 沒有"},{"start":24270.476,"end":24294.458,"text":"所以沒有辦法落入172條之三這個是為什麼有必要但是你還是沒辦法說明沒辦法 你這個我知道你的意思但是173 172之3你172之2跟172之3結合我懂你的意思可是你還是沒有辦法去做一個說明就是說你在172之2為什麼我的你那個低度行為你把它提高到三年以下那如果是用恐嚇的方式"},{"start":24296.002,"end":24321.654,"text":"就恐嚇罪加二分之一啊那不一樣不一樣不一樣你恐嚇罪本來你要單獨調回去看恐嚇罪本來就三年以下囉沒有我這樣講好了如果你認為說其他的構成要件行為譬如說啦恐嚇也好啦脅迫也好啦強制也好如果法務部認為台灣民眾黨黨團172條之3這樣的立法體力"},{"start":24324.835,"end":24348.713,"text":"法務部沒有辦法認同的話我沒有排一次喔我歡迎他們啊把你的條文拿出來嘛那要不然我們坐在這邊傾談嗎那我們想說就大家意見不一致那我們172條之2的部分我們就予以保留還有172之3啊這兩條一起的啊"},{"start":24357.817,"end":24375.482,"text":"172條之3172條之3的部分也予以保留我們現在審查排序7 增訂第172條之4版本有台灣民眾黨團提案第174之4及委員林思敏等16人提案第172條之3吳宗憲"},{"start":24380.383,"end":24400.635,"text":"吳宗憲等19人提案第172條之二但是我們今天有另外提修正動議共有委員吳宗憲等3人所提的修正動議及黃國昌等3人所提的修正動議那就本條有無意見要補充請問各位委員有無意見補充黃委員"},{"start":24402.028,"end":24422.762,"text":"那個請次長看一下今天提的修正動議你們上一次提的那個書面意見上次提的書面意見認為法官或檢察官有一定的行為太陽在本來的條文的版本當中沒有辦法涵蓋那請你們看一下現在所提出來的"},{"start":24423.888,"end":24451.815,"text":"在這邊的修正動議有沒有把你們認為應該要涵蓋卻沒有涵蓋的是不是問題都解決或者是有哪裡要再補就請具體的講有哪裡要再補請具體的講來 次長麻煩次長回答跟黃委員報告委員是講你的修正動議二的部分嗎"},{"start":24454.019,"end":24469.622,"text":"好 那委員的這個意見當然現在是比較具體一點但現在就是說對於他的關稅的作業項包括他的指揮之間都長官這部分我們也是贊成這第一點第二點倒是說檢察官跟法官他所做的怎麼樣的處分"},{"start":24470.083,"end":24495.804,"text":"他做的處分跟甚至裁判他可能沒有辦法難刮所有我們假官法官職權所行使的範疇到底在哪一個範疇內的行為去關說才要把他落入把他入罪化譬如說委員你所提到的處分跟裁判那假官有很多是決定他沒有做出一個處分他做一個決定非常多的決定那這個決定去關說假官做某樣的決定"},{"start":24498.038,"end":24526.695,"text":"這個要不要把它入刑我先停一下那個次長你現在手上有沒有你們2019年的版本你現在手上有嗎我先請教你一個立法政策的問題你看一下你們法務部2019年的部版法務部2019年的部版針對不法關說的部分"},{"start":24527.762,"end":24551.758,"text":"你們是用意圖犯用意圖犯那大家都知道意圖犯的意圖是一個主觀的特別構成要件要素這個主觀的特別構成要件要素是說我意圖為自己或第三人的利益或不利益在司法案件調查偵查審判或執行中這個是意圖的內容好"},{"start":24552.759,"end":24575.546,"text":"那你們的客觀構成要件要素是什麼你們的客觀構成要件要素是未依法定程序對該管公務員運用影響力我那個時候在寫台灣民眾黨團版本的時候我為什麼沒有採你們2019年那個版本因為我覺得你們2019年那個版本還蠻可怕的我要有一個意圖"},{"start":24577.287,"end":24603.069,"text":"然後但是行為太樣本身我看不太出來就客觀的構成要件行為到底是什麼不在法定程序對該管公務員應用影響力你指的是什麼譬如說未依法定程序對該管公務員應用影響力啊我幫他講好話說那個下一任的法務部次長就是他了我下一次一定挺你當檢察長"},{"start":24605.458,"end":24608.648,"text":"我現在是一定如何如何是不是都在這個射程範圍之內"},{"start":24612.151,"end":24637.756,"text":"那所以我才改變就是說沒有用意圖犯的方式沒有用意圖犯的方式就變成了是說什麼是說在前面的這個意圖以外在前面的這個意圖以外是我們那個意圖是要你做一定或不為一定的裁判或處分那意思是什麼意思是我很特定喔要你做什麼不要做什麼"},{"start":24639.042,"end":24657.188,"text":"如果我們相信法官跟檢察官應該都是獨立的獨立行使職權那你為什麼要去care那你所謂的行為不行為值的內容是什麼我要維護的是法官跟檢察官他們在職權行使上面的獨立性"},{"start":24659.093,"end":24680.831,"text":"我就是要維持這個獨立性同時法官跟檢察官應該都喜歡這個條文為什麼喜歡這個條文以後你們就有免死金牌了啦以後有政治人物敢再跟你們關說你第一線就說對不起啊違法的事我檢察官法官不能幹啊"},{"start":24684.051,"end":24712.001,"text":"還要告發那個犯罪威力之強大是在保護法官跟檢察官啊要不然過去台灣發生什麼荒謬的狀況啊去關說司法沒有罪開什麼玩笑啊快要成為全球法治國家的笑柄了在台灣關說司法沒有罪快要成為全球法治國家的笑柄啊被抓到也沒有罪"},{"start":24714.622,"end":24742.225,"text":"這樣對檢察官對法官是好事嗎或許對於少數喜歡抱大腿的人是好事啦但我絕對相信絕大多數的檢察官法官人家是兢兢業業在自己的工作崗位上面做事的啦他也不希望他在做裁判的時候還要有人打電話給他還有檢察長找他還有部長找他"},{"start":24744.741,"end":24770.659,"text":"然後被抓到竟然大家通通都沒有事上次最高法院法官把他自己小孩關說內建引以為戒啊都已經罪證確鑿了今天先不談政治人物啊政治人物前面談的都談過了我也不想在這邊好像嚴肅的在審法案結果搞得半天好像在進行政治攻防沒有啦台灣司法史上誰曾經關說過司法"},{"start":24773.679,"end":24800.037,"text":"關心的人自己都可以去查啦但是我們摸著自己的良心啊誰可以去關說司法一般市井小民有可能去關說司法嗎不可能嘛一定是有權有勢的人才去關說司法嘛要不然那麼多人在法院在地檢署前面喊冤他們的聲音什麼時候被聽到"},{"start":24801.943,"end":24826.968,"text":"不要說關說司法啦他們周圍的聲音被聽到都很困難啊我現在是在給法務部機會喔你們想一想喔要用你們原來那麼抽象的構成要件要素還是要走入我們今天希望幫你們特定具體化的構成要件要素我希望法務部今天表明一個態度第二個 第二個"},{"start":24830.871,"end":24848.762,"text":"就你們所認為行為的態樣到底還漏什麼我再說一次啊法官 檢察官為什麼我們從憲法到法官法現在檢察官還是規定在法官法當中"},{"start":24852.817,"end":24881.474,"text":"還是規定在法官法當中檢察官自己應該很清楚你們為了不要訂檢察官法為了把自己保留在法官法裡面檢察官團體進行過多少不要說抗爭啦進行過多少遊說我相信檢察官團體非常清楚把你們繼續留在法官法就是希望看到檢察官真的有風骨獨立行使職權"},{"start":24887.274,"end":24892.576,"text":"當社會意識到不是這個樣子的時候檢察官的獨立性是被自己摧毀的啊回到現在的法條你們到底要採取哪一種規範模式是你們覺得你們2019年那種規範模式會比較好還是現在委員們的提案會比較好如果覺得委員們的提案的方式會比較好還缺了哪些東西具體講出來以上"},{"start":24915.72,"end":24943.317,"text":"市長有沒有要補充這邊可以先請他回答問題不然市長先回答然後我們待會我們再接著我就是因為我也看了今天的修正動議兩個修正動議都市長兩個修正動議都比原本的條文要更具體了一些但是我還是最關心的就是"},{"start":24944.515,"end":24953.107,"text":"兩個修正動力最後條文上面還是有不法關說者他進行了他的客觀的行為構成要件還是不法關說這四個字"},{"start":24954.676,"end":24977.623,"text":"那這個不法關說這四個字的它並不是既定的法律用語那這不法關說它的定義這個請等一下這個市長一併回答啦如果說這個不法因為過去對於關說的這些案件最大的爭議不管是剛剛所提的那些案件都是"},{"start":24978.717,"end":25003.485,"text":"有人指控說這是關說那有人辯駁說這不是關說顯然這個關說在過去在現在不管是在法律上面甚至在社會上面對於關說行為可能大家有一個抽象的共識大概是去影響司法去跟法官說兩句話要去影響他的判決但是他究竟你要列在法條上面成為一個構成要件"},{"start":25004.554,"end":25012.671,"text":"你一定是要明確的啊那這不法關說這四個字寫在法條裡面那什麼是不法的關說什麼是合法的關說"},{"start":25016.723,"end":25035.539,"text":"這個部分我要請就是等一下再回答的時候請這個次長麻煩次長能夠就兩委員的問題一起回答好跟兩委員報告那首先當然我們108年那個版本的條文我們現在從時空下來看也許當時是不夠嚴謹的現在委員體的版本的確是比當時的條文來得嚴謹多這第一點"},{"start":25036.5,"end":25065.538,"text":"關於這個黃委員所提的版本的部分那我們可以這樣建議就是說第一個就是說是不是對司法官的所有的行為去關注都要犯罪司法官他在整個訴訟程序裡面會做非常多的決定包括我訂庭期的決定比如說我做一些行政上的決定非常多的決定這些決定如果沒讓有人關注說我要提早訂庭期或怎麼樣都是犯罪不是啊 那我前面才我本來的條文寫的就是裁判嘛啊你們又覺得太窄"},{"start":25068.131,"end":25090.584,"text":"那個市長你有沒有看你們法務部之前的啊你現在又覺得這個太寬我為什麼會做調整我本來只有寫裁判耶因為我覺得那是審判的核心啊結果你們上次書面意見說太窄你現在又說太寬你可不可以有具體的建議啊"},{"start":25093.642,"end":25115.157,"text":"這個也許是不是可以限於在終局的裁判或者是強制處分的申請跟決定還有偵查的終結跟上訴跟抗告或執行的決定這幾個終局的決定的關說才會構成犯罪而不是一般的訴訟程序上的不是啊 那你這樣子不是比我之前的裁判範圍更小了嗎"},{"start":25117.749,"end":25143.894,"text":"對 基本上他是一個不是 那你很奇怪我上次寫裁判 你說太小你今天的建議是要更小你們態度可不可以不要變來變去啊這樣搞得大家很困擾耶你上次書面意見說法官的裁判範圍太小希望大一點寫大你又說太大你剛剛的意見是希望裁判再限縮限於特定的終局裁判所以我就拜託你們法務部"},{"start":25146.001,"end":25150.514,"text":"你們意見可不可以不要跳來跳去啦夏天講一套 現在又講一套"},{"start":25157.799,"end":25182.021,"text":"市長你還有補充嗎這是第一點意見第二點意見就是委員的條文裡面其實就這個關說人他是不是有運用他的影響力導致於他這個關說的結果產生條文裡面看不出來因為他是一個運用影響力的一個關說行為所以前提他必須要利用這個他自己本身的身份職務地位的影響力去影響司法官"},{"start":25183.215,"end":25207.673,"text":"所以條文裡面如果說會有運用影響力這一個具體條文的構成要件會比較明確一點以上補充謝謝好謝謝那還有其他委員有意見要補充嗎剛剛有關的確不法關說這一個定性在我們整個不論是草擬法案的過程或者行政院審議的過程當中都產生了很大的爭議什麼叫做不法關說這幾個字"},{"start":25209.534,"end":25233.89,"text":"所以後來後來就有一個後來行政院在討論過程中就採了一個大法庭一個見解就是說這個包括一個不法請託不法關說不法施壓這個比較細緻的一個行為太樣把它規範到我們的這個構成要件裡面來會不會比較好要不然這個的確是一個大家都比較疑慮的部分什麼叫做不法關鎖黃委員"},{"start":25239.434,"end":25260.446,"text":"你可能拜託市長回去跟那些行政院的大官講不罰請託不罰施壓是有比較具體不罰請託不罰施壓是有比較具體下一個問題又來了什麼是請託什麼是施壓我沒有請託我只是拜託我也沒有施壓我只是建議"},{"start":25263.098,"end":25289.279,"text":"搞這種名詞遊戲搞不完你如果不法關說這個詞真的如此抽象不能用 那奇怪了有多少法院判決就直接用不法關說四個字那個是在判決理由裡面就直接寫不法關說 那奇怪囉如果不法關說是一個抽象的詞 大家都聽不懂我們法院在寫判決理由的時候還直接用不法關說的詞彙"},{"start":25291.425,"end":25318.812,"text":"那所以我們現在要檢討的是什麼連那個判決都要拿出來檢討啊請那個法官出來講清楚啊你的判決理由寫不法官說是什麼意思啊連判決理由裡面都寫不法官說了要比法條更具體的判決理由裡面都寫不法官說了我具體保留啊我具體建議這條保留"},{"start":25321.428,"end":25347.751,"text":"保留我是可以同意啦但是在立法過程中我們要力求這個法律概念的明確我想這個是判決理由裡面用詞有太多太多了啦你說判決理由裡面寫過的就可以拿來當作法律構成要件的文字喔這個我也倒是第一次聽說了"},{"start":25349.448,"end":25355.473,"text":"那我覺得保留我是可以同意啦,但是我想這個東西,不要說這個不法關說,這個概念多明確這個每一次在爭議什麼東西,什麼叫做關說,什麼不叫關說,這不是嗎?"},{"start":25366.857,"end":25390.843,"text":"那我們現在要把它立在法令上面我們現在這些修正動議裡面我們確實已經把這個行為太樣已經把它的構成要件寫得更清楚有更具體的比原本的條件更具體但是它最後還是它的行為太樣還是具體關注這幾個字我是關注這個部分是不是能夠把它的行為太樣能夠把它更具體的又明確的法律概念下去定義就這樣子而已啊"},{"start":25392.742,"end":25416.701,"text":"那我同意保留那我自己的部分我也補充因為我後來有一個修正動議那修正動議我也有參考那個法務部之前的一些建議所以我有把一些客觀的太陽預語特定下來另外就不法關說的部分我在說明欄我也有講就是什麼叫做不法關說那我有把它在說明欄加以定義"},{"start":25418.542,"end":25434.331,"text":"這部分也是可以給各位委員同仁們可以參考那就172條之四的部分呢包括那個修正動議一跟修正動議二那我們就於等一下等一下我剛剛居然沒講完172條之四喔"},{"start":25437.253,"end":25454.393,"text":"其實我剛一直在看,我一直在看台灣民眾黨跟吳宗憲、趙薇妮的版本台灣民眾黨是說,意圖使法官一定裁判,或者使檢察官一定處分,加布法官說你這個是一年以上七年以下,並科一百萬以下罰金"},{"start":25455.294,"end":25468.569,"text":"吳宗憲召委的部分是一徒使法官檢察官不為一定的裁判或處分一定的裁判處分在司法案件偵查審判執行當中對法官跟檢察官不法官說者你這個是五年以下得病科一百萬吳宗憲"},{"start":25470.231,"end":25487.476,"text":"縣委員這個部分是相對好理解啦因為你說針對整個妨害作證的證人鑑定人或者專家證人同意這個採取你是三年以下嘛那對於法官檢察官在偵查跟審判主體上的干預上你科處較高的這個五年以下有嫉妒刑我反而覺得這比較合理的一個選擇"},{"start":25491.772,"end":25510.777,"text":"我一直在著墨在整個刑度的部分在談其實代表大家就很清楚啦對這些定這些罪名對增加這樣的一些規範其實我們到現在來講的話民進黨跟大家的態度沒有什麼不同啦"},{"start":25511.457,"end":25533.168,"text":"但是呢 要去講清楚的就是說 刑度這樣的一個安排你像比如說民眾黨你的版本對於妨礙作證同樣是一年到七年以下有嫉妒刑罰金也是一百萬那你同樣你民眾黨版本172條之一這樣的一個設定跟目的我是想知道為什麼會做這樣的一個差別待遇啦就這樣簡單而已 否則你訂這些條文 我沒有反對啊"},{"start":25536.59,"end":25562.388,"text":"那刑度你不覺得我一直從來一直在講刑度的安排我對這一些就真的是就覺得怪怪的是不是委員跟委員又不好意思去說質詢那只是說我對這樣的安排是有餘力啦所以我贊成是保留啦好 謝謝那如果各位委員沒有要補充說明的話那我們本條就予以保留那個"},{"start":25564.664,"end":25583.719,"text":"所以增訂第172條之4及修正動議1修正動議2予以保留好那我們現在審查序號8增訂第172條之5版本有台灣民眾黨團提案第172條之5委員林思敏等16人提案第172條之4請問各位委員有意見補充"},{"start":25591.434,"end":25619.109,"text":"你們法務部有反對的看法嗎這個是在保護法官跟檢察官就是不要讓你們說為了說因為我這樣講好了啦在美國司法的裁判檢察官的處分那個都是公眾可以批評的一點問題都沒有但是如果為了特定的結果去對法官"},{"start":25620.302,"end":25631.386,"text":"做什麼事情去殺他啦殺他的家人啦那是重罰那不是開玩笑的事情在殺人罪的世界裡面美國為什麼殺法官會列為一級謀殺罪"},{"start":25636.277,"end":25658.629,"text":"特定的,美國的先發點跟我們不一樣,有特定身份的人殺他的時候,那個法定刑事會往上拉的台灣沒有,台灣只有紫系血清春慶署,272有這樣的規定那在美國整個法律制度體系下,有一些人他們認為他們要承擔很多壓力,要保護他們"},{"start":25660.431,"end":25676.181,"text":"所以對他們怎麼樣那個法定刑都會再往上拉法官是其中一種那我們當初為什麼會訂172條之路基本上我在訪的就是美國的立法力如果對法官對檢察官為了要他們幹嘛"},{"start":25678.28,"end":25703.938,"text":"去犯法那就加重期刑二分之一那市民委員的提案我也可以理解他就不是加重期刑二分之一他就直接一個法定刑就下去了這兩種立法模式法務部認為哪一個比較好我不會堅持自己的看法我其實是抱持一個開放的心胸我事實上是有可能可以去支持林市民委員他們那種提案的方式那但是我想要聽聽看法務部的意見"},{"start":25706.697,"end":25734.311,"text":"跟委員報告首先當然謝謝民眾黨提的這個案對檢察官、法官、刑事事務做特定的保障那我們定表贊成那立法的體力方面因為配合我們172之2跟173的體力那我基本上用這個目前的版本加重二分之一我們是比較能夠接受到體力一致只是說在體力的適用上面我們172之2他有做一個騷擾行為有特別的一個刑責那對司法官或他的密接家屬騷擾"},{"start":25735.712,"end":25748.26,"text":"反而沒有,只有犯罪才會加重二分之一嘛就是說這兩個他體力的橫屏上會不會產生一些疑問這樣好了齁你們如果認為對法官檢察官為了意圖影響結果而騷擾認為要把他納入規範範圍的話你們還有時間趕快提條文出來"},{"start":25754.81,"end":25776.882,"text":"你們還有時間趕快提條文出來事發法制委員會其實對法務部非常好一而再再而三的提醒你們還有時間趕快提條文出來等到下個會期真的處以這個法案再錯過這班車你們事後再發聲明遺憾說沒有這個沒有那個我就不會客氣了"},{"start":25778.479,"end":25785.031,"text":"這整個立法的歷程全部都記錄下來我們已經一而再再而三的催促你們把東西給交出來"},{"start":25788.841,"end":25811.102,"text":"那次長還有補充嗎?沒有那如果各位委員沒有要補充的意見的話那增訂第172條之五的部分也予以保留那本案逐條均已處理完畢 作以下宣告一 本案審查完畢 拟據審查報告提請院會公決"},{"start":25813.183,"end":25837.495,"text":"2.本案須交由黨團協商3.院會討論時由吳昭偉中線出席說明4.條次引述條文部分文字及法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理議程所列事項均已處理完畢本次會議進行到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":25839.522,"end":25839.984,"text":"嗚呼嗚呼"}]}},{"id":"16446","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16446","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ed57c7c755d2781a4f02a0ef817a6d1e5529fa0cca45d562779b11a19d696c1845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-01-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期財政委員會第15次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告(公務預算部分)(含機密部分)草案」提報院會案。(機密部分舉行秘密會議)）","type":"Full","date":"2025-01-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-01-06T08:31:11+08:00","end_time":"2025-01-06T09:21:30+08:00","duration":3019,"影片長度":"00:50:19","委員發言時間":"08:31:11 - 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請議事人員先讀上一次的會議議事錄"},{"start":1775.598,"end":1791.799,"text":"立法院第十一屆第二會期財政委員會第十四次全體委員會議事錄時間 中華民國一百一十三年十二月三十日星期一九十五分至十三十十分中華民國一百一十四年一月二日星期四九十三分至十三十二十六分地點 群仙樓九樓大禮堂"},{"start":1792.239,"end":1816.022,"text":"出席委員林德福等14人 列席委員張祺凱等13人列席官員113年12月30日星期一行政院常務副秘書長李國興行政院主計總處主計長陳淑芝財政部部長莊翠穎等114年1月2日星期四上午9時至11時金融監督管理人會主任委員彭金龍等上午11時至下午10時30分財政部部長莊翠穎等"},{"start":1817.463,"end":1832.125,"text":"主席陳昭吉委員喻珍113年12月30日報告事項宣讀上次會議事錄決定議事錄確定邀請行政公民署長明星行政組織總處陳組織長淑芝財政部莊部長翠雲對行政表示"},{"start":1832.506,"end":1847.531,"text":"因《財務法》修正2014年度總預算序重編進行專題報告並被質詢經行政院常務副秘書長李國興及行政院主計總署主計長陳淑芝分別提出報告後機構委員林德福等18人提出質詢均經行政院行政"},{"start":1848.331,"end":1867.599,"text":"行政主席總署主席長陳淑芝等予以答覆決定一 報告進行到完畢二 委員質詢會及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一週內書面答覆委員力要求期限者從其所定三 委員羅明財 羅志強 王逸川所提書面質詢列入紀錄 刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆"},{"start":1868.599,"end":1896.36,"text":"四 各位如果有相關預算提案請於12月30日星期一下午5點以前送至財政委員會議事人員收件114年1月2日上午9時至11時討論事項一 繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會銀行局 證券期貨局保險局 檢察局 收支部分二 繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分有關金融監督管理委員會主管"},{"start":1896.94,"end":1926.047,"text":"中央存款保險股份有限公司三繼續審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分有關金融監督管理委員會主管一特別收入基金金融監督管理基金二信託基金保險義務發展基金決議一中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案有關金融監督管理委員會銀行局證券證券企業局保險局檢查局收支部分審查結果一收入部分第二款罰款及賠償收入第二一五項"},{"start":1926.587,"end":1940.71,"text":"金融監督管理委員會無劣數第三款 規費收入第176項保險局無劣數第4款 財產收入第225項金融監督管理委員會103萬4千元照列第226項銀行局54萬2千元照列第227項證券期貨局1萬元照列第228項保險局10萬2千元照列第229項檢查局34萬1千元照列第5款"},{"start":1950.532,"end":1968.456,"text":"營業營餘及失業收入第十二項金融監督管理委員會原列8億554萬3千元系金融監督管理基金剩餘繳戶數佔照列是所屬非營業特種基金審議確定後再行調整第七款其他收入第24項金融監督管理委員會13萬7千元照列第25項銀行局22萬6千元照列第26項"},{"start":1972.217,"end":1999.649,"text":"證券期貨局166,000人照列第二七項保險局127,000人照列第二八項檢察局19,000人照列二稅住部分第二23款金融監督管理委員會主管第一項金融監督管理委員會原列2億6,839萬4千元減列第一幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持80萬元含優惠5萬元及設備及投資5萬元第二幕金融監理10萬元共計減列90萬元科目均自行調整"},{"start":2000.149,"end":2023.715,"text":"區域均照列改列為2億6千749萬4千元本項通過決議五十一項第二項銀行局原列3億6千778萬5千元簡列第一幕一般行政向下基本行政工作維持120萬元第二幕銀行監理5萬元供契簡列125萬元科目均執行調整區域均照列改列為3億6千653萬5千元本項通過決議二十六項第三項"},{"start":2024.555,"end":2052.216,"text":"證券期貨局原列41383萬8千元簡列第一幕一般行政項下基本行政工作維持60萬元含業務費之防護建築養護費30萬元第二幕證券期貨市場監理15萬元含業務費10萬元共計簡列75萬元科目均執行調整區域均詐劣改列為413088千元本項通過決議26項第四項保險局原列1億7702萬5千元簡列第一幕一般行政項下"},{"start":2052.836,"end":2069.622,"text":"基本行政工作維持三十五萬五千元貼目保險監理五萬元共計檢列四十萬五千元科目軍執行調整區域軍造列改列為一億七千六百六十二萬元本項通過決議十一項第五項檢查局原列五億一千九百九十二萬元檢列第一目"},{"start":2070.782,"end":2097.818,"text":"一般行政項下 基本行政工作維持50萬元店務 金融監督 金融機構檢查5萬元供給檢列55萬元 科目均執行調整 區域經照列改列為5億1937萬元 本項通過決議16項有關政治別 稅出預算 稅動以上機關別審查結果調整二 中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分有關金融監督管理委員會主管中央存款保險股份有限公司審查結果"},{"start":2098.778,"end":2113.402,"text":"一 業務計畫 因依據營業收支 金融保險成本 轉投資 壯大之建設事業及資金應用等向之審查結果隨同調整二 營業支出 因營業總收入 原列135億68858千元增列營業收入向下 金融保險收入之利息收入2000萬元 保費收入5000萬元共計增列7000萬元 區域經濟劃列改列為136億3885萬8千元二 營業總支出 不含所得稅費用"},{"start":2125.686,"end":2147.795,"text":"原列135亿6885万8千元减列营业费用向下管理费用50万元科目自行调整并配合修正增列营业成本向下金融保险成本支提成特别准备7050万元以上增减户籍后共计增列7千万元区域金照列改列136亿3885万8千元三税前金利0元照列三"},{"start":2148.835,"end":2164.336,"text":"金融保險成本營業總支出因水龍調整4.轉投資計畫無列數5.重大之建設事業401萬元照列6.資金應用因依據營業收支金融保險成本盈虧撥補轉投資及重大之建設事業等項之審查結果水龍調整其通過決議一項"},{"start":2165.618,"end":2190.252,"text":"三中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算分營業部分有關金融監督管理委員會主管審查結果以特別收入基金金融監督管理基金以業務計劃因依據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整二基金來源用途及輿促以基金來源原列39億6921萬9千元增略徵收及依法分配收入向下"},{"start":2191.112,"end":2208.319,"text":"增收收入之金融監督管理收入一千萬元區域均照列改列為三十九億七千九百二十一萬九千元二基金用途原列二十八億九千零五三萬八千元減列推動保護金融消費者權益計畫兩百萬元含服務費用向下一般服務費一百萬元科目自行調整"},{"start":2208.999,"end":2221.787,"text":"推動金融制度新種金融商品研究及發展計畫400萬元含匯費捐助補助分攤照護救濟與交流活動費向下捐助補助與獎助資補協助政府機關購100萬元及捐助"},{"start":2224.509,"end":2232.554,"text":"國內團體100萬元 共計減略600萬元區域均造列 改列為28億8453萬8千元3 本期剩餘 原列10億7868萬1千元增列1600萬元 改列為10億9468萬1千元3 節繳供戶 8億554萬3千元造列4 補辦預算 增加固定資產之建設改良擴充1300萬元造列5 通過決議7項"},{"start":2249.924,"end":2266.421,"text":"信託基金 保險業務發展基金依基金運用計畫 因依據收支 漁畜撥補等項目審查結果隨同調整二 總收入 兩千零一十六萬六千元造列三 總支出 一億兩百零六萬四千元造列四 本期漁畜 八千一百八十九萬八千元造列通過決議兩項"},{"start":2268.302,"end":2283.288,"text":"4.本委員會負責審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案之公務預算部分,具體審查環境,有關政治別稅出預算,隨同以上機關別審查結果調整,並已據審查報告,並入審查總報告,提報本院會討論。院會討論前,須交由黨團協商。院會討論時,由本會陳昭紀委員預爭出席說明。"},{"start":2289.19,"end":2304.955,"text":"上午11時至下午10時30分討論事項審查中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於財政部主管台灣土地銀行股份有限公司財政部印刷廠台灣菸酒股份有限公司經財政部部長莊翠雲就預算案提出報告後"},{"start":2305.555,"end":2327.517,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":2327.697,"end":2350.118,"text":"中華民國114年度中央政府總運銷案附屬單位預算營業部分關於財政部主管台灣土地銀行股份有限公司財政部運銷廠台灣菸酒股份有限公司令哲琪具體審查宣讀完畢好 請問各位委員對上一次議事錄有沒有異議好 那議事錄確定首先我先介紹在場的委員吳立華委員吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":2353.933,"end":2357.956,"text":"討論事項 會總整理提出中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告公務預算部分含機密部分草案提報宴會案 機密部分舉行秘密會議宣導完畢"},{"start":2381.906,"end":2408.318,"text":"好 今日議程的安排會總整理提出中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告公務預算的部分含機密的部分草案提報那個宴會案關於審查總報告的草案既有公開跟機密兩部分先進行公開部分的審查之後再召開秘密會議進行機密部分的審查現在請議事人員先讀審查"},{"start":2411.321,"end":2419.002,"text":"總報告草案的內容宣讀中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告草案"},{"start":2420.502,"end":2441.564,"text":"審查經過及總結果本案經本院議事處113年11月8日與台立議事地1130703867號函請財政委員會將114年度中央政府總預算案函附屬單位預算及重計表營業及分營業部分依分配表及日程分送各委員會審查附將司法院行政院主計總署國防部外交部等機關陸續函送至114年度"},{"start":2444.026,"end":2466.24,"text":"單位預算看護表 含請各相關委員會並案處理並由各委員會之召集委員擔任主席含請各有關機關首長列席說明答覆委員質詢及提供書面資料本案經各委員會審查結果內政委員會 經濟委員會 財政委員會 教育及文化委員會 交通委員會 司法及法治委員會社會福利及衛生環境委員會 其114年1月3日 商會將公務預算部分"},{"start":2467.2,"end":2489.445,"text":"審查報告送財政委員會智慧級列入審查總報告外外交及國防委員會已提出公務預算部分審查報告由財政委員會綜合整理並於114年1月6日舉行全體委員會議討論後完成公務預算部分審查總報告現將外交及國防委員會審查結果分別詳略以後提進討論外只有應先行說明者如下一 稅務部分"},{"start":2490.825,"end":2496.627,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案 原列稅務總額為3,1533億6,619萬元 審查結果 增列2億200萬元 強表六期至於114年度中央政府總預算案 先行審議單位預算及涉及附屬單位預算營業及分營業部分至於營業營業及失業收入均佔照列 視附屬單位預算審議確定後再行調整"},{"start":2513.912,"end":2527.358,"text":"稅務總額暫照列為3,535億6,819萬元是院會審議通過後再由行政院主計總署依照各款項目分別調整紀列2.稅數部分114年度中央政府總預算案原列稅數總額為3,1324億6,899萬元審查結果共計減略4,882萬元詳件表6.8"},{"start":2537.683,"end":2550.814,"text":"資因114年度中央政府總預算案先行審議單位預算其涉及附屬單位預算營業及分營業部分之國庫增撥額等均佔照列是附屬單位預算審議確定後再行調整稅租總額佔改列為3,276億2,089,000元"},{"start":2555.578,"end":2568.907,"text":"市議院會審議通過後再由行政院主計總署依照各款項目分別調整紀列三 融資財源調度部分114年度中央政府總預算案有關融資財源調度部分編列債務資償還1415億元加計稅率稅出相抵剩餘208億9728萬1千元後上需融資調度數1206億271萬9千元以舉借債務706億271萬9千元"},{"start":2581.696,"end":2610.018,"text":"及已用以前年度稅計剩餘500億元支應均暫照列是總預算案稅率稅出審議結果再行調整再行審議是114年度中央政府總預算案審查結果稅率稅出總額如有差短及經常收支如有不平衡時送院會處理是114年度中央政府總預算案先行審議單位預算及涉及附屬單位預算營業及分業部分均暫照列是附屬單位預算審議確定後再行調整"},{"start":2611.899,"end":2632.206,"text":"6.114年度中央政府總預算案 稅出政事別部分 隨同稅出機關別審查結果予以調整委員參議部分 審查延期預算編制政策方向及原則 詳第1頁至第4頁預算重要內容 詳第4頁至第20頁各委員會審查結果 詳第31頁至第278頁其中 外交及國防委員會已審訊 詳第35頁至第240頁其餘內政等7個委員會均未及審訊 宣布完畢"},{"start":2641.513,"end":2663.082,"text":"好現在召開明明會議的進行會總整理提出中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案外交部國防部僑務委員會主管機關部分審查總報告的草案提報宴會案請會必要人員離開會場並通知公報處停止錄影及播放"},{"start":2915.495,"end":2934.905,"text":"有沒有異議沒有異議就通過針對中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告草案作如下的決議一中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案審查總報告照草案通過提報宴會討論須黨團協商並請議事人員盡速提報宴會討論"},{"start":2941.629,"end":2965.146,"text":"2.有關內政委員會、經濟委員會、財政委員會、教育及文化委員會、交通委員會、司法及法治委員會、社會福利及衛生環境委員會的審查報告I送達本委員會以後,請醫事人員會總整理並進行提報,宴會併案討論本日的會議議程已進行完畢,休息"},{"start":2966.974,"end":2985.875,"text":"那我們接著9點40分由陳一貞委員繼續審查預算就是台灣土地銀行的部分還有財政部印刷廠跟台灣菸酒股份有限公司"}]}},{"id":"158692","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158692","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/de7793bdba635484edc0811824f17dec7d5a9e1565835ab6ed959dcea458019c40d0ad8028109d995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:32:02 - 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你是完成檢討而已啊對啊 我們這個檢討就是我們會把所有行政作業的完成我現在問的是多久可以解決這個問題啊你跟我講行政程序報告委員我來回答一下"},{"start":249.589,"end":252.751,"text":"有關於陽明公園前面的亂象的部分確實全屬有中央跟地方那我們在短期之內我們就先跟台北市政府來聯繫一下如何處理攤販的這個問題我們不是說要把攤販都趕走而是怎麼樣讓他有秩序 我不是說要把他趕走"},{"start":266.758,"end":284.615,"text":"不要影響到門面不要人家會覺得要到陽明山國家公園 到陽明公園這麼亂我們來檢討一下那剛剛他們所說就是說整體的一起來規劃的時候給我們一點時間我們盡量不要再那麼長的時間 要一年我盡量在短一點的時間內完成但是讓我們再估算一下 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謝謝主席 本席請劉部長好 請部長"},{"start":23.259,"end":36.373,"text":"本來本席沒有要談這一點 但看到今天前面蠻多委員在提的就是有關財政收支劃分法三讀通過之後 內政部也有發布新聞"},{"start":40.057,"end":65.341,"text":"但是我們上週行政院秘書長明確的跟我們說行政院跟各部會都還沒有共識行政院也還沒有下達說好 哪一個部會或是大家都等比例的會影響28%但是我們行政院就這樣發布新聞本席覺得太過粗糙所以在今天質詢之前我也要特別來表達就算有影響"},{"start":69.702,"end":93.927,"text":"我相信也不會是各部會平均分配反而本席要請部長我們應該要積極的向行政院來爭取爭取我們內政部我們該有的這個費用那內政部更不可以以補助民眾的項目來作為對民眾情緒勒索的素材"},{"start":94.887,"end":110.503,"text":"那更重要的是本席也希望我們各部會應該要想辦法遵截行政費用還有一些過度腐爛的宣傳費出國考察費用一些管理成本要應該來盤點"},{"start":113.246,"end":131.025,"text":"他的這個優先項目所以本席在前面質詢的時候我特別先提出來那還是要回歸這個今天我們開會的主題就是國家公園法的部分條文修正那本席要特別針對"},{"start":132.586,"end":158.079,"text":"这次修法有针对各种破坏山林的行为加以罚则但是会破坏山林的不是只有不孝的游客或宵小其实政府不当的施政也会造成环境的破坏还有生态的冲击近邻碳排是国际的趋势"},{"start":159.127,"end":181.815,"text":"本席看到內政部推動國家公園碳管理計畫配合淨零碳排的政策施行規劃在我們的遊客中心或者是國家公園管理處或是相關的一些廳舍或宿舍的屋頂停車場架設太陽能光電板"},{"start":185.163,"end":201.334,"text":"这个部分我们还蛮有意见的因为我国的国家公园形态差异很大譬如说像高海拔的阳明山玉山雪坝国家公园或者是被海洋环绕的"},{"start":202.954,"end":220.043,"text":"東沙環礁國家公園澎湖南方四島國家公園或者具有歷史文化資產的金門國家公園這麼巨大的環境差異難道都可以一概而論裝太陽能板嗎部長我們這個要裝太陽能板這個政策這個是確定嗎"},{"start":228.582,"end":249.662,"text":"報告委員我們現在在國家公園寄存的建築上面裝設太陽能板是一個目前為止要解決如果萬一電力中斷的時候國家公園包括山屋他們會有自己的電力這是一個所以他是以自用為原則"},{"start":250.623,"end":278.534,"text":"那既然是自用為原則的話我們也是考慮全世界其他的國家公園是否有這樣的案例確實也有也就是說如果萬一發生地震或是發生大的風災的時候電線桿倒塌那山屋上面或是我們在非常高山的這種管理機構裡面沒有電的來源的話它是否最佳的來源就是太陽能那既然最佳來源是太陽能的話我們希望能夠在原來既有的建築上面裝設太陽能板"},{"start":278.874,"end":307.817,"text":"就是只有這樣而已有評估過一定要用太陽能板嗎因為太陽能板啊因為國家公園它就是要保護我們的生態跟環境景觀各方面但是是既有建築對啊 你加了太陽能板上去就會破壞生態那如果環境影響評估沒過那我們就不會做所以case by case每個島家公園當然那你們現在評估完了嗎"},{"start":309.466,"end":324.744,"text":"還在評估中嗎我們持續的評估中因為每一個地方它的光線照度跟像陽明山它可能就不適合因為它的那個常常會被雲遮陽光不強"},{"start":327.707,"end":345.625,"text":"對然後那個我們還有會涉及到景觀的問題還有一個如果他會對景觀還有生態對他如果會有影響我們就不會設那這樣其實我看其實能夠的也不多我們國家公園就是要"},{"start":346.506,"end":368.966,"text":"畫色來保護的是不是我看就不要因為我接著要講太陽能板還有第二個問題一個是生態一個是生態已經有民眾反應那個太陽能板的反光會影響一些動物特殊的包括已經確定的是黑面皮鹿那個就在濕地那可能還有一些"},{"start":370.242,"end":392.32,"text":"我們沒有我們還未知的還不知道的它會影響一些小動物或者是他們的生存你破壞了他的生態那太陽能板的這個反光是一個問題接著更重要的太陽能板的火災問題啊那個國家公園在這個山區救災很不易不是嗎"},{"start":394.611,"end":419.07,"text":"是吧跟委員報告我們在整個國家公園如果要裝設太陽能光板就山屋要裝設太陽也是要經過評估另外我們的再生能源在國家公園內部的再生能源我們包括小水利等等我們都會去嘗試去處理而不是只有太陽能光我們的重點是要讓整個國家公園不是只有太陽能板我現在是針對太陽能板的部分那個再生能源"},{"start":420.163,"end":447.44,"text":"小水利也是一個你小水利我沒意見我現在針對的是太陽能板我很有意見因為它如果一旦發生火災發生火災機率非常大我們本來就會評估適合不適合才再去處理不是說我們一定都目前有沒有評估中有沒有已經確定要裝太陽能板哪一家哪一個國家公園有沒有我們還在評估當中在整個環境評估當中評估完可不可以把報告給我們我們會把相關報告提高給大院好"},{"start":448.3,"end":467.708,"text":"很快本席還要再問一下有關失地的部分我們的失地保育這個部分可不可以請部長可以跨部會的來溝通很快的本席請教我們新竹縣有兩處重要的國家級失地處長知道是哪裡嗎對新豐跟香山失地香山在新竹市不是新竹縣蓮花寺失地您知道嗎"},{"start":478.454,"end":496.622,"text":"這一個不是我們的重要失地,它不在我們重要失地的範圍那是不是國防部一直判你?對所以,那新豐市,所以像新豐的失地,新豐也是我的家鄉,我在那邊出生的"},{"start":497.262,"end":514.649,"text":"那現在部長這個新豐失地的話是造成了在地那個很多漁業漁民的漁業權的問題這個部分是不是可以請部長部長要跨部會整合一下你影響了他們長期在那裡漁民怎麼樣"},{"start":521.523,"end":540.899,"text":"失地的畫社影響了漁民他終生在那裡漁業很久了那你現在去畫社造成很大的反彈這個部分要圓滿一點跟那個委員說明一下就是去年年底的時候新豐失地的保育利用計劃我們已經去年年底是指剛過掉的113年對那是上個月那個因為我們有跟漁會就是漁業署"},{"start":550.026,"end":555.031,"text":"然後我們也跟地方政府我們有經過了溝通然後那個新豐濕地的保育利用計畫我們已經通過了由那個濕地審查小組我們所有的機制都會由審查小組去做審核跟確認有沒有納入生態教育還有整個觀光發展的規劃有沒有對"},{"start":577.49,"end":601.8,"text":"那我們的分區也是經過在地的一個同意認同那我們才去做比如說環境教育比如說生態教育將來他們也可以做那個生態小旅遊那本席還是希望對這個東西總是需要協同環境部經濟部一起努力那也要拜託我們內政部這邊積極的來做好謝謝"},{"start":609.114,"end":609.337,"text":"好 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謝謝主席那我想請 先請劉部長上台好 請劉部長委員好部長好我們今天雖然是審查國家公園法但是我在詢問國家公園相關問題前我還是想針對你在1月2號部務會議的時候那記者會的這個部會後面的記者會的發言來進行詢問"},{"start":34.355,"end":63.615,"text":"你其實在1月2號的時候提到才化法通過後內政部可能需要配合刪減28%的預算28%是多少其實高達了283.5億而且按照相關的法令還不能扣除法定義務支出和一般型的補助所以我想請部長你能不能再明白說明一下就是內政部有沒有試算過之後到底會減少多少然後發生什麼樣的狀況"},{"start":64.515,"end":80.244,"text":"就是283億嗎是的謝謝委員我們是根據這個那個行政院主計總署所提出來的就是說如果有28%的三減的額度的話那我們是哪一些額度呢可能會需要請地方政府自籌裁員"},{"start":81.424,"end":108.379,"text":"也就是說我們的立場不管財政收支劃分法未來到底有沒有三讀通過然後會影響到114年的預算在我們內政委員會其實已經有就是說在內政委已經有審查通過大部分的內政部的預算我們是希望按照這樣子的業務來進行但是在預算的分配就會配合在立法院的財劃法是否有送到總統府公告之後有沒有影響到114年"},{"start":109.079,"end":115.504,"text":"所以我們內政部是要配合行政院的整體的作業所以我們在試算的過程當中所以我覺得您應該是要趕快開始進行這相關的未來預期的狀況所以我們確實很想知道那到底哪一些"},{"start":130.595,"end":157.39,"text":"影響的金額是這麼高三成兩百多億將近三百億這樣的狀況那到底哪一些預算會受到影響是新興計劃嗎還是計劃型補助還是什麼部長你在這裡到底試算的結果到什麼程度了能不能跟我們分享一下也讓我們有個心理準備啊是報告委員我想大家都知道新興計劃如果沒有經過大院在未來的一百一十四年總預算通過的時候不能夠"},{"start":158.911,"end":178.329,"text":"但是我們現在試算的就是已經實行很多年的計畫大一部分都會放在我們國土的業務這其實跟人民一般生活很多耶對 譬如說生活圈 道路上 或者是說人行道的安全改善中央政府跟地方政府都有一定的籌款的比例"},{"start":181.212,"end":188.379,"text":"那另外一個就是說我們在籌辦非常多時也深受大院很多委員同意譬如說我們的社會住宅興建還有我們包租代管業務還有我們土地租金的補貼等等這些大一部分283億的預算會落在這個區塊那這個區塊未來的增點會是說那是由地方政府來出還是中央政府出"},{"start":203.433,"end":229.738,"text":"因為我們認為說業務還是要照常推動不要影響到一般人民對 我們就舉一個這個人行道的改善好了過去為我的選區為新北爭取了非常多這個人行道改善計畫的補助部長你可不可以說明一下現在以新北舉例的話我們補助的乘數是多少那你有沒有預算過那未來補助的乘數是到零嗎還是是已經有一個預設的狀況我們要看一下在新北市現在多少 以現在來講的話"},{"start":234.065,"end":254.768,"text":"現在在那個新北市它的財力分級是第二級也就是自籌款的比例是百分之三十是啊所以現在七成都是由中央補助的喔過去我們這樣爭取的時候七成是由中央補助報告委員我跟您補充一下有關於這個租金補貼的部分在過去的兩年是全部由中央來支付"},{"start":255.328,"end":276.235,"text":"是這是基金補貼我剛剛說我們如果以人行道改善為例的話過去是七成是由中央補助因為我們爭取太多了所以我們印象深刻每一條如果不是中央補助的話其實這個部分幾乎沒有辦法改善這樣的狀況就是一般的狀況我們通常在過去幾年當中的前瞻基礎建設計畫裡面其實中央的這個層數就會更高"},{"start":281.017,"end":305.432,"text":"所以過去我們其實在前瞻計畫裡面新北市在全國的爭取數額是排名第二那在其他的中央補助方面其實我們的占比是相當的高的那現在如果新的財化法這樣通過之後我們當然樂見地方有更多的財源沒錯但是到底權責怎麼分我們也是希望中央這邊能夠盡快跟地方政府討論完之後"},{"start":306.633,"end":307.354,"text":"我們要有心理準備"},{"start":336.593,"end":350.985,"text":"全責在中央還是在地方是 其實我們在處理這些預算有可能會影響到我剛有提到我們不希望影響到一般的市民的生活當然沒有人希望影響那就是中央政府跟地方政府全責劃分清楚全責劃分的話是要每樣每樣來"},{"start":353.547,"end":355.729,"text":"其實我們會一個縣市一個縣市跟他們仔細講其實再跟你就教一下啦其實剛剛說到是一般人民生活有感但其實以全國大的專案來講的話比如說打仗"},{"start":374.045,"end":384.592,"text":"打架的專案現在是有跨部會73億嘛 傾州警政署是有這個網路科技運用經濟計畫就高達44億那這個計畫會不會受影響我們的打架成效會不會受影響這個到時候也應該要說明一下對 網路經濟計畫的話全部都是由警政署來處理是啊 所以這個網路科技運用經濟計畫會不會受到影響"},{"start":394.918,"end":416.042,"text":"那如果像今天跟國家公園相關的這個太魯閣國家公園0403的地震災後復建計畫30億嘛30億那這個會不會受到影響因為這個是以行政院的特別預算或是二倍金來處理的是所以過去行政院其實已經補助相當的多那現在的這些到底哪一些是會受到影響的我們希望在下個會議一開始的時候不早也可以讓我們大家能夠了解全責"},{"start":420.003,"end":427.309,"text":"全責的劃分我想這是全國人民都想知道的部分我們會以大院未來的這個設定的方向為主來做設算好謝謝部長好那我們請張志龍委員"}]}},{"id":"158688","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158688","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/de7793bdba63548443f9bdc83d3fe4907d5a9e1565835ab6ed959dcea458019c56c01e1ed2fe403d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:59:15 - 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394.244,"end":416.062,"text":"但是我要跟委員報告才化法通過在去年年底的時候我們的會計單位他會設算因為大家都知道我們設算蓋算都要前九個月前十個月他就會想說如果不是一百一十四年是一百一十五年的部分就有一個二十八趴的這個說法這個討論很多次了但部長你有接受到來自於上面的指令嗎說會看二十八趴"},{"start":417.673,"end":435.272,"text":"我們是按照主計處告訴我們說設算28%的狀況之下去設算一下但是並沒有說什麼時候要設出來你知道上禮拜在財政委員會討論的時候不管是行政院的副秘書長或者是上禮拜在這邊行政院的秘書長包含這個主計都講說沒有要刪除28%這件事你知道這回事嗎"},{"start":439.917,"end":453.609,"text":"我想28%刪除這件事情不是用刪除應該是說比例上的分配會分配到地方政府不是用刪除那為什麼你在內政部的臉書上你可以講說這些東西我們要被迫減少他如果不是刪除為什麼叫被迫減少"},{"start":454.309,"end":468.825,"text":"被迫減少就是內政部的預算被迫28%不見了可能會到地方政府去啊你現在又講可能你在臉書上你講我們被迫要削減了你可沒有講可能所以我剛有跟徐委員回答說我回去檢討一下我們在臉書上面的減持用字"},{"start":469.426,"end":495.567,"text":"你現在又要檢討遣職用制是真的是這樣子報告委員我們在處理預算的過程當中本來就是會有一來一往然後三讀通過時候的三讀通過的版本那現在如果說大院跟行政院已經都我不知道溝通好協調好沒有就是說114年是按照原來的部分那這件事情對我們來講就是我們在去年年底發布的時候太快"},{"start":496.348,"end":513.208,"text":"好那既然太快的話我們就願意檢討那個潛池用字就這樣你要檢討潛池用字我們希望盡快看到這一篇臉書貼文的文字修正啦這個你要檢討幾個我就隨便舉個例子比如說這段時間國土署當然很支持我們桃園通過一條便衣道路的這樣子的一個經費那他就特別去講如果因為財務法有調整"},{"start":514.349,"end":529.56,"text":"那缺少的部分其實要有地方的增加的統籌分配款來補助其實這就是一個比較健康的對話因為這個東西一定會事前調整這本席完全理解不太可能你中央少了一大塊三千多億的預算然後這個你要自己把這個錢變出來然後地方什麼都不增加不對的"},{"start":530.24,"end":555.474,"text":"這是調整補助比例嘛 原本73開的可能變成55開可能變成這樣的狀況 這些調整都合理但是怎麼樣來 可不是按照地方政府五級的制度來做調整嗎對啦 你會有一套調整規則 這我們都理解所以說新的法上路之後一定會磨合一段時間然後哪些項目做哪些調整才會比較明確你如果在這些項目確定之後你再來發臉書說哪些地方有可能會影響可能影響來自於地方政府不願意配合或怎麼樣那大家情有可原"},{"start":555.914,"end":571.108,"text":"但是在這個東西還沒出來之前我希望內政部謹言慎行好不好財化法部分是這樣最後一個那個國家公園法今天的主題啊這個院版什麼時候會出來我只問這個問題就好了我剛剛有提到我們現在比較大的困擾那個交通部跟農業部大概比較不是"},{"start":571.749,"end":576.252,"text":"就是罰則比較不是問題還有裡面有牽涉到原住民的狩獵的部分另外呢我們還有國土計劃法裡面的保育的問題會比較困擾一點我想這個你還是要有個時間表啦我們盡量在今年會提出到大院今年會提出來是吧好如果是今年的話這本期倒是蠻樂觀其成的希望盡速來執行希望今年我們可以把《國土公務員法》好久沒修正來做一次徹底的檢討可以嗎好謝謝部長不好意思耽誤時間了好謝謝牛許廷委員"}]}},{"id":"158687","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158687","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/de7793bdba6354849673c3ac47fa96777d5a9e1565835ab6ed959dcea458019c1a6072d9306be1cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:52:18 - 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提報過就是我們現在的設算就是如果按照新的財化法的話呢在內政部最大的影響量是減少28%但是這28%不是針對114年的部分但是我們用114年比較完整的部分請我們的會計單位去算出來的所以它叫一個試算"},{"start":89.301,"end":111.973,"text":"是 您在臉書的部分有特別提到就是114年的為例 用這個為例是 但是我在想啦 因為明明就已經通過了這個114年的預算喔那我覺得內政部現在用這樣子一個臉書事實上就在釋放假訊息啊所以是不是要讓我們這個在第二輪協商的時候是不是要請我們要提案3減28%才能夠這個提的"},{"start":115.175,"end":129.583,"text":"符合您這邊提出的一些說法我想這個大概是一個非常大的誤解我要再跟委員報告就是減少28%的部分不是說整個的預算量而是說未來在中央政府跟地方政府的話這個28%的話所以今年是沒有要從編的"},{"start":133.586,"end":134.646,"text":"我們按照大約的指示"},{"start":162.825,"end":173.037,"text":"了解我回去我回去來檢討一下好嗎是我覺得這個既然是不是今年度的狀況我覺得要不然就撤掉要不然就是你們再一個重新的散佈一個真實的狀況以114年度來說不會有這樣子的一個預算被刪減的一個狀況好嗎好謝謝我來檢討謝謝委員指教謝謝"},{"start":182.668,"end":196.258,"text":"那尤其在裡面還有一點就是說你這邊的連述有提到說三減涉災興建與住宅補貼等計劃如果說真的預算不足的話三減預算是不是應該以不會影響民生問題的預算為主對不對"},{"start":198.86,"end":212.725,"text":"部長請問一下如果真的預算不足我們刪減預算是不是應該以不會影響民生問題的預算為主我們不管是不是民生或是其他的預算我覺得都不應該刪減那如果真的預算不足的話是不是應該先以民生問題的這個預算要先嗎"},{"start":217.827,"end":224.33,"text":"我們按照預算科目應該編列因為我現在發覺內政部這一次在臉書上列出來刪減的都是民生必要的項目但是像是媒體宣傳這個部分就完全都不刪減請問這是要宣傳嗎因為比如說像上面有提到內政部編列的言論自由紀念活動媒體製作脫波及刊登費用二二八國家公園紀念館的展覽與營地"},{"start":244.02,"end":256.21,"text":"引因相關媒體宣導作用跟威權統治時期國家不法行為受害者權利回復相關媒體宣傳費用難道這些的宣傳都比租金補貼還要重要嗎"},{"start":259.028,"end":275.584,"text":"內政部說這個警政署反詐騙的相關技術更新跟基層執行力強化計畫因預算不足而延後推進可是卻一直持續的投入這個資金在自然憑證的推廣活動的媒體宣傳費用這不是本末導致嗎"},{"start":276.837,"end":294.446,"text":"抱歉抱歉那個跟委員報告一下我們預算都是按照科目來編列而不是說整體全部把它當成一項來編列那您剛講到就是說我們關心有關民生建設的部分那我看在你們的臉書上面所要刪減的部分全部都是跟民生有關的"},{"start":295.326,"end":313.284,"text":"反而宣傳的部分通通都沒有提到還是照樣好像就是要繼續來執行報告委員我想我們的本意一定不是這個樣子那現在剛剛說明出未來的涉算的話是地方政府要籌設的裁員可能會因為中央政府刪除掉以後地方政府要增加這些裁員他剛剛部長已經預諾就是有關你們臉書釋放的不實的言論你們會再重新來檢討他們未來怎麼來處理"},{"start":319.67,"end":335.781,"text":"我覺得還是要讓社會大眾讓民眾了解真正今年度我們的預算沒有從編也不會三減28%的預算讓大家很清楚今年的狀況才化法的增加只會讓我們的財源當地方的自主是現在只是讓我們本來屬於地方的財源還給地方"},{"start":339.904,"end":354.283,"text":"本來中央跟地方本來就是60跟40的比例現在已經變成中央75 地方25地方少了15%的財源他們這個地方的財源自主的狀況沒有辦法達到所以我們現在只是把原來屬於地方的15%"},{"start":356.845,"end":375.073,"text":"這個還給他們10%所以這樣並不會影響到中央的任何裁員那未來中央跟地方要怎麼去協調每個項目的怎麼樣來使用中央地方平均來分配我想比較理性的做法就是說我們讓中央政府跟地方政府共同來算一下財政收入劃分法裡面"},{"start":378.174,"end":396.779,"text":"來去面對這個已經三讀通過的財劃法應該是大家來去面對但是地方政府有一些是保護黨籍的地方政府有告訴我們說就算按照新的財劃法通過之後他們未來所要擔負的財源反而沒有轉轉像現在這麼好因為還有特別預算在預算這個財劃法已經三讀通過了就應該要讓財劃法正式的實施未來這些問題我們再來討論謝謝"},{"start":408.766,"end":409.735,"text":"好 谢谢徐总委员"}]}},{"id":"158686","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158686","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/de7793bdba63548480d1aa9655811fe77d5a9e1565835ab6ed959dcea458019c9482b33612278bb55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:43:58 - 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新年快樂新年快樂 部長好第一個題目 我想要跟你講的是說我們民進黨現在在搞政治清洗清算鬥爭 執政八年不修憲現在在立法院變成少數黨的時候再來想透過操弄意識形態來製造對立"},{"start":59.056,"end":73.386,"text":"製造國內緊張的芒果乾請教部長中華民國憲法增訂修文第十一條條文的內容是什麼因為剛才我看你都講條文嘛 我問一下可不可以請麥委員再講一次第八條的條文第十一條的條文的內容是什麼"},{"start":85.29,"end":93.076,"text":"自由地區與大陸地區人民權利義務關係及其他事務之處理得以法律為特別之規定"},{"start":96.031,"end":122.396,"text":"對所以呢是自由地區與大陸地區間人民權利義務關係及其他事務的處理得以法律為特別的規定嘛對不對所以呢我們要請教我們的部長在兩岸人民關係的條例第九之一條的第二項的內容又是什麼呢"},{"start":124.465,"end":133.833,"text":"就要唸出來是嗎對啊第九一條的第一項是台灣地區人民不得在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照"},{"start":135.851,"end":151.758,"text":"這是第一項第二項違反前項規定在大陸地區設有戶籍或領用大陸地區護照者除經有關機關認為有特殊考量必要外喪失台灣地區人民身份及其在台灣地區選舉罷免創制複決擔任軍職公職及其他已在台灣地區設有戶籍所衍生相關權利"},{"start":158.181,"end":180.421,"text":"並由戶政機關註銷其台灣地區之戶籍登記但其因台灣地區人民身份所付之責任及義務不因而喪失或免除第三項本條例修正施行前台灣地區人民已在大陸地區涉及或領用大陸地區護照者其在本條例修正施行之日起六個月內"},{"start":182.202,"end":197.989,"text":"註銷大陸地區戶籍或放棄領用大陸地區護照並向內政部提出相關證明者不喪失台灣地區人民身份是的說到這樣子的話我們是沒有台灣的沒有大陸的"},{"start":203.045,"end":210.171,"text":"戶籍就是我們的公職及其他在台灣設有戶籍所延伸的相關權利為什麼當初憲法徵定條文有兩岸關係兩岸條例的這樣子的規定就是因為我們不承認中華民國"},{"start":226.184,"end":232.251,"text":"中華人民共和國是個國家嘛 所以沒有放棄國籍的要求 只是要求放棄我們大陸的戶籍對不對 沒有要求兩岸關係 我們的大陸配姊妹放棄國籍的要求"},{"start":246.667,"end":257.271,"text":"要求他們放棄戶籍所以現在你是承認我們的中華人民共和國是一個國家是嗎中華人民共和國是一個國家我們當然承認全世界都承認中華人民共和國是一個國家所以我們是台灣跟他們是兩國之間是嗎我們是中華民國所以兩國之間所以你們的兩岸關係有要求放棄國籍"},{"start":276.618,"end":295.102,"text":"要求誰放棄誰的國籍陸配有要求他們放棄國籍嗎還是你們兩岸之間只是要求他們放棄戶籍而已中華民國有國民有他的權利跟義務那義務的話包括要服兵役但是呢如果是有專政權的話他有積極資格跟國籍資格是你們要求的但是我們依據中華"},{"start":302.344,"end":324.833,"text":"民國的那個憲法已規定可以得到只要上市大陸的戶籍以大陸的護照就可以擁有台灣地區的選籍權依法擔任公職這個是你們剛才你也講說我們是只要放棄這個是因為我們進來台灣的身份陸配他是用兩岸關係條款拿到身份證"},{"start":331.036,"end":346.3,"text":"外配是有用國籍法所以當你進來的身份如果你全部用國籍法你覺得說他兩國關係你就是用國籍法但是你沒有用國籍法也是這個是你們規定讓我們在台灣拿到身份的不是我們自己說的算嘛但是你現在就拿這個來說就是這個條款"},{"start":356.163,"end":362.123,"text":"這樣子的話條文很清楚但是為什麼你去造謠說他們這樣子的自己解釋的"},{"start":363.533,"end":367.595,"text":"的法律但是你要求的跟你解釋的法律就完全不一樣所以我們台灣有38萬的陸配擁有對岸的國籍沒有私校難道這些就是在選舉剛才你說里長有幾個這個選舉之前登記你們覺得合法合規合理的"},{"start":386.522,"end":387.483,"text":"報告委員 我們並沒有說謊內政部的主管的法律當然是國籍法如果今天它不是中華人民共和國"},{"start":410.174,"end":418.419,"text":"她是美國 她是英國 她是日本如果她當選了民意代表的話她也必須要放棄她在日本 美國 英國的國籍所以我們都一律適用並沒有特別的規段進來的條款你就是要規定了不要等說拿到身份證再來規定這樣叫人家生小孩 生了以後說你不可以把他塞進去還不可以這樣"},{"start":435.35,"end":440.095,"text":"議員你講話不要那麼衝動我們可以理性來討論理論就是我們現在跟你理論就是說這個是原理還有第二個我們財化法居住正義剛才我們委員都有問說我們財化法我們法律已經通過了嗎"},{"start":455.41,"end":459.452,"text":"有通過了 有執行了嗎會影響到今年114年了嗎還沒有嘛但是呢 你到處來去宣傳剛才有委員把你的新聞稿還有你的公文什麼都放上去但是呢 在我們追求真相的時候呢打破你的謊言就是財政部我還沒有說謊 我一直在表達這是秀算這是秀算 不是試算影響到今年是"},{"start":485.502,"end":497.432,"text":"你要去算什麼 我們還沒有執行你不能說這樣子去做造謠 讓人民誤解報告委員 我們都按照大院的規定來執行大院的規定 這樣我們是財政部長我們莊部長 還有主機總署"},{"start":503.217,"end":505.919,"text":"主機長陳總機長兩位在12月30號他也在質詢的時候說一算今年114年不會有衝突也不會重編但是你依據哪裡說我們今年114年我們的居住正義就有影響"},{"start":526.912,"end":534.318,"text":"所以就是你這造謠嘛 讓人民不懂得法律的時候大委員我們說居住正義不受影響的狀況之下 要中央政府跟地方政府一起來討論如何分配財源如何分配沒錯 但是目前還沒有進行 也法律還沒有上過所以我們希望"},{"start":548.588,"end":551.57,"text":"我們的部長不叫就是創造更多的讓我們人民的好讓我到目前為止都是理性來回應您的問題沒錯 但是我們財化法還沒有開始希望我們的部長 如果大家都像部長這樣子的話就是亂編 就是亂造謠我們也沒有亂編 是經過立法院審議通過的我們內政委員會審議通過 謝謝"},{"start":578.067,"end":586.858,"text":"才不會去造謠把錢還給人民這樣才是真正的去處理"}]}},{"id":"158684","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158684","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/de7793bdba6354847fd7bacdc699860f7d5a9e1565835ab6ed959dcea458019c0c1acf7fe19f66a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:24:20 - 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謝謝主席 各位委員 各位官員 大家早安是不是請劉世芳 劉部長好 請部長張委員早部長早 新年快樂新年快樂好 首先請教部長 最近社會上尤其新聞媒體上討論沸沸揚揚的就是有關於第一屆要請教"},{"start":30.987,"end":59.91,"text":"就是有網紅稱台灣有超過十萬人領大陸身份證我想要請教第一點這是事實還是認知作戰有網紅拍影片說有十萬人持有中華人民共和國的身份證那十萬人的部分好像據我們現在內政部所查得的資料現在只有兩人再說想要請教第一個十萬人跟兩人中間的差異是到底誰說的是真誰說的是假"},{"start":61.274,"end":75.493,"text":"報告委員我想我們都是依照事實跟依照我們的法定的程序來處理那我現在只能引用我們的陸委會主委也是上個禮拜在這個接受訪問的時候有提到說"},{"start":76.634,"end":98.672,"text":"他們知道領有這個大陸身份證的大概是兩萬多人啦但是這個部分我們目前為止沒有任何這個法律上面的依據可以去確認所以我們仍然在查查當中那這個所謂的兩人的部分是因為在這個網紅所PO出來的這個影片裡面呢這兩人是自己把這個卡片秀出來"},{"start":99.83,"end":121.59,"text":"所以你們是看卡片所以看卡片卡片沒有平常不是我們看卡片變成有人來檢舉那目前我們這邊還是有人來檢舉那我們根據檢舉的部分正在查查當中所以部長的意思是說你們有跟這個陸委會甚至海基會做聯絡所以現在得知您的看法是說您認同陸委會"},{"start":122.651,"end":152.172,"text":"主委認為全台灣現在目前有兩萬人有查證過嗎有中華大陸的身份證是這樣嗎報告我剛剛有提到我們就是依法行政那個沒有確切證據之前我不會所以陸委會有證實說有兩萬人沒有我是說陸委會的主委他在接受訪問的時候就是就他們了解是這樣子的一個數目字但是我們沒有查沒有辦法去查查清楚目前為止陸委會的資料因為我跟部長報告因為那個陸委會不是你瑕疵的嘛你瑕疵的是移民署嘛"},{"start":152.772,"end":175.44,"text":"那所以我是說可以拜託部長這邊請移民署來去跟這個陸委會或海基會做這個各部會之間的往來是不是可以提供給我們本委員會的委員說現在到底台灣人有多少台灣人有大陸身份證的資料可不可以提供人數給我們內政委員會的委員來做參考好那是不是給我們一點時間因為我希望說"},{"start":179.141,"end":204.268,"text":"可以可以因為我認為這樣的認知作戰是不正確的讓全台灣人覺得說好像這樣的事情是是很正常的可是其實是不正常的那第二個我可不可以請問再請教你一件事因為也有這個別的委員來質詢我們本黨的陳玉珍委員說陳玉珍委員有大陸大陸的這個身份證這點因為有牽扯到我們國會議員的尊嚴那是不是可以請部長順便幫我們"},{"start":206.409,"end":221.27,"text":"這個各部會的資料調一下看有沒有這樣的情形來以還給我們那個國民黨陳一尊委員清白好好可以齁但是我先跟委員報告第一個這個資齁然後第二個就是說跟那個有沒有有沒有而已啊沒有牽扯到個資啊不是一樣"},{"start":222.611,"end":249.768,"text":"沒有要給他澄清啦我跟委員報告第一個我們會按照委員的指示來辦理那第二個是各自然後第三個呢就是說有關立法委員他的這個身份問題等等啦還是以立法院的這個委員職權行使法裡面為主那我想我們按照這些法令來執行的話我們會按照程序來處理好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝部長那第二個要請教部長的是最近也是有新聞說有這個列政部有查出有五個里長"},{"start":251.429,"end":263.277,"text":"是有取得這個大陸身份證的一個狀況沒有放棄中國國籍的部分請問這個資料部長你們是如何得知是我們從包括移民單位裡面所得到的就是說第一個在這五位里長他們在法定的時間內並沒有提供給我們相關單位他放棄中國國籍的證明"},{"start":281.81,"end":309.153,"text":"所以他們沒有因為他們有中國國籍可是沒有在預定的時間中法定的時間中給你們相關的資料可是就這個想法我想請教部長的是說因為現在依照特殊的狀態其實依照兩岸人民關係條例大陸是屬於我們中華民國的地區那如果以這個兩岸人民關係條例的適用的話當然也有委員提出來是不是就不適用國籍法的規定"},{"start":309.713,"end":327.019,"text":"好那這個兩岸人民關係條例在特殊情形下是不是可以先適用兩岸人民關係條例而不是用國際法請部長稍微解釋一下謝謝委員我想我們電政部已經有多次對外說明我們在民國112年的時候呢已經有那個行政院的函式"},{"start":327.279,"end":349.219,"text":"就是兩岸條例從81年開始公布到現在兩岸互不隸屬是一個事實而且是現況那所以中國大陸人民跟中華民國國民是明顯有別那麼按照憲法第三條的規定具有中華民國國籍者為中華民國國民那民國89年的國籍法修法已經定義"},{"start":350.26,"end":376.85,"text":"國籍的用詞由中國人修正為中華民國國民那入出國籍移民法第三條第一款也規定中華民國國民是指具有中華民國國籍之居住台灣地區設有戶籍國民或台灣地區無戶籍國民我要跟委員報告你只要跟我們講法條是什麼就好不用念法條的內容不然時間拖太久憲法兩岸人民關係條例國籍法戶籍法"},{"start":377.23,"end":394.429,"text":"所以這些了解所以這些都是高於這個兩岸人民關係條例所以現在就不就是不是用這個兩岸人民關係條例用您剛剛講這些法條嗎那本席尊重好那下一個問題本席還是要請教就像剛剛我們很多委員有在請教的就是說在才化法通過了以後這個"},{"start":397.511,"end":420.098,"text":"內政部有一個新聞稿跟臉書上面就寫說義務支出將減少28%影響民生政策跟新的計畫推動的問題可是我們也都知道主計處現在已經2025年了主計處說沒有要重編任何的財務資料我想要請教部長的部分就是說現在"},{"start":421.698,"end":446.557,"text":"主計處還沒有算出來內政部到底是減多少的義務支出有確定是28%啦報告我跟委員都有提到過我們是根據設算的基礎去算出來的那這是由會計單位提供的主計處有提供你們就是減少28%未來一定會減少28%理論上但是因為114年的預算如果大院都通過的話我想就不會影響"},{"start":447.718,"end":474.183,"text":"那其實最要拜託部長的就是說因為我本身我們選區在中和其實我們有爭取污水下水道的一個改建案那這一個污水下水道的改建也是百分之百中央補助我們不需要說這個有任何的影響因為大家都知道說在113年的稅收超收了五千多億五千多億的金額其實是可以來去做在財化法的影響下可以來去做互相的一些"},{"start":476.945,"end":495.025,"text":"所以我希望說部長是不是可以在下個會期還是儘快提出財化法修正後這個內政部他整個預算整體的編列的狀況因為內政部是掌管我們全台灣所有這個非常重要最大的一個部會可以嗎"},{"start":495.606,"end":521.742,"text":"是不過我先跟委員補充一下如果是原來的特別預算也就是前瞻基礎建設預算的話其實不會受到所謂的年度預算的業務推動的影響那如果說是未來假設未來2025或者2026是受到未來的財化法的比例上分配的話我們也是要先跟縣市地方政府來談論就是說某一條大的建設計畫是要怎麼樣做財源的比例分配"},{"start":522.282,"end":543.26,"text":"那我們的原則我看中央政府跟地方政府的原則都是希望能夠照常推動只是說那個錢要由誰出這個就是變成大家要來一起努力的那有沒有機會就是說2025年的部分因為稅收超徵的部分所以2025年的預算不管是中央地方的預算就照過去的計劃書的部分繼續去推動等2026年討論2026不要討論2025"},{"start":546.583,"end":573.209,"text":"報告委員 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謝謝主席 我們請劉部長好 請部長委員好好 部長好其實今天大家還是在談論財化法因為財化法到現在其實都還是所有縣市那所有人民最關心會不會受到影響的一個修法那我在這邊還是要再次的來幫高雄講話其實我這幾天的質詢每一場都還是講財化法就是因為"},{"start":30.453,"end":55.358,"text":"這件事情對高雄實在是影響太大了因為大家知道說高雄是全國增幅最低的那其實剛剛部長也有提到說不只是高雄就連馬祖縣的縣長就是連江縣的縣長都也覺得說這個修下去對他們不一定有利關鍵在哪裡就是當這個市權如果回到地方到時候他們要自己要多支付的可能比他們拿到的補貼還多請問是這個意思嗎 部長"},{"start":57.779,"end":82.874,"text":"是我想大家都知道這個財化法叫做財政收支劃分法的話不是中央政府就是地方政府要收跟支那所以這次的修法裡面呢我們很希望說中央政府要跟地方政府在這個立法院可以授權的原則之下呢去好好談論一下就是未來大家要分配的財源怎麼樣處理所以我剛剛跟很多委員在回應的時候就是我們的設算是"},{"start":83.354,"end":99.051,"text":"未來如果按照新的財化法的時候可能在115年會產生這樣子的結果但是呢我們這個設算的基礎並沒有去找地方政府因為地方政府他們也第一個大部分的地方政府都已經通過地方議會的預算114年的地方預算已經通過了"},{"start":102.134,"end":126.226,"text":"那如果114年中央政府沒有通過的時候他們可能有一大筆從中央要補貼或者是要這個按照比例給他們這個地方會落空那兩頭空的結果就會耽擱到預算的執行也會耽擱到業務費人事費甚至是很多是屬於公共設施的經費那這個部分呢有待這個大院跟行政單位或是地方政府一起來討論那我們按照這樣的討論結果一起來執行因為"},{"start":131.069,"end":148.861,"text":"讓全國的人民可以有享有我們預算裡面能夠執行的公共設施的成果才是我們最大的願望謝謝部長的說明我覺得這件事情其實部長也點出一個重點財政收支劃分法是中央跟地方政府大家要共同來商議的可是在立法院"},{"start":149.782,"end":170.573,"text":"都沒有任何的討論就這樣貿然的三讀通過就造成了三讀通過大家才開始要檢討說到底是出了什麼問題這其實也是變成所有縣市政府的困擾所以我真的在這邊還是希望啦再次呼籲有機會的話大家重新坐下來談重新把過去在立法院還沒有談到的"},{"start":171.673,"end":193.219,"text":"本來應該就要先談才處理的重新再來檢討一次市權跟錢到底要怎麼分配那其實我還是要講一下高雄的重點因為當然很感謝部長第一時間就試算出高雄還有全台灣各縣市有可能受到的影響那在我的選區我關心的是其實內政部在高雄我的選區有幾個包括"},{"start":195.82,"end":212.499,"text":"清閒好事 興盛好事都是正在興建以及剛絕標要開始準備要動工的社宅那我很擔心說財化法照這樣下去照國民黨這麼惡劣的版本下去是不是會影響到我們高雄市民的權益啊"},{"start":213.18,"end":227.25,"text":"我們社宅興建的進度跟未來是不是有沒有可能會蓋不下去啊這個是我最擔心的可不可以請部長來跟我們回應一下照這樣的才化法下去我們選區的社宅到底會不會受到影響"},{"start":229.12,"end":253.505,"text":"報告委員理論上我們會希望已經動工就表示已經開始發生預算的執行那我們希望就維持不要動但是新興的就是都還沒有動工都還沒有報任何這個開工的話可能會受到影響那那個委員所主張的這兩個部分我們回去查一下如果他已經有動工興建的話我們希望按照原來的進度走"},{"start":254.245,"end":277.199,"text":"按照原來預算執行來走但是新興的確實會受到很大的影響這也是我們非常必須要面對的一個挑戰因為全台灣現在的這個社會住宅的興建大概是12萬戶到13萬戶那未來還會有12萬戶的部分所以我們可能也因為預算受影響之後可能會來做比較大的這個改換"},{"start":278.14,"end":300.33,"text":"譬如說我們以老宅都更或者其他的方式來處理有關社宅興建因為無論怎麼樣能夠照顧居住弱勢的這個年輕族群或者弱勢族群還是我們最大的願望那我們會在這個有限的預算之下會做最大的發揮但是要讓我們有時間來做比較精準的這個設算比較好"},{"start":301.71,"end":328.967,"text":"謝謝部長的回應所以我還是在這邊幫我的選區說一下話啦除了剛剛這兩個社長還有租金補貼其實也是我的選區非常容易遇到的問題就目前為止其實高雄可以一戶拿到的可能是三千二到五千之間那可能看他的個人的狀況那我照剛剛部長的意思是說希望說這個市權分下去中央七成五地方要自己掏兩成五是這樣子嗎"},{"start":330.5,"end":356.342,"text":"如果如果我一定要講如果要不然大家認為114年我覺得擔心的情況有可能會發生的情況必須要讓人民知道如果115年是按照新的才化法的話那確實內政部減少了金額就是會在這麼多的金額之下那租金補貼我們很希望說地方政府也負擔25%就是回歸到110年那時候的處理的方向但是這也是我們的"},{"start":357.463,"end":380.772,"text":"初步的估算那還沒有跟幾個地方縣市政府一起來討論因為討論之後呢大家要分攤責任因為分攤預算就是分攤責任這樣會比較好否則我們巧婦難為無名之炊我想您一定清楚不可能我們不希望減少租金補貼的戶數那我們就希望地方政府也能夠跟我們一起來負擔租金補貼應該給補貼年輕的這個居住弱勢的族群"},{"start":384.073,"end":410.782,"text":"好 謝謝部長的說明所以我在這邊還是要下一個結論就是叫國民黨這樣的才化法下去有可能最直接影響到的反而是這一群原本應該要獲得這個資源平衡的弱勢所以我最怕的是這個修下去平者越平 富者越富那需要照顧的反而沒有辦法透過這個預算的重新分配來獲得分配正義的保障這個是目前國民黨"},{"start":413.303,"end":434.895,"text":"修二的才化法裡面最違背才化法精神的一件事情所以拜託希望有機會大家重新再把才化法重新來做討論那最後雖然時間到了我還是講一下因為今天在處理這個國家公園法那因為我的選區有壽山那我這個壽山一直以來都有遊蕩犬的問題"},{"start":435.796,"end":440.618,"text":"那我也希望說是不是署長嗎那是不是署長謝謝部長署長這個我們壽山的遊蕩犬問題拜託一定要跟我們市府合作來通力來處理好不好因為這也非常久了那過去也都一直法規其實也都在對"},{"start":453.382,"end":479.578,"text":"我們多年來就一直尋求市府的一個合作因為大部分的流浪犬其實還是在園區外如果園區外不處理的話流浪狗白天牠就會跑到山上去玩這個我們會努力好 這個真的要拜託啦因為這個已經造成我們周邊的居民非常長期以來的困擾那我在這邊一定要幫他們講一下那也拜託署長我們同力來合作好 謝謝"},{"start":486.625,"end":486.645,"text":"好 請"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}