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3"},{"start":2461.291,"end":2471.596,"text":"不好意思請報告出席人數現在出席人數五人已達法定人數現在開會首先進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":2476.229,"end":2500.783,"text":"立法院國家發展基金不當投資暨管理師職調查委員會第二次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年12月18日星期三下午21分至3559分地點紅302會議室出席委員林思明委員等12人請假委員陳超明缺席委員吳思堯委員主席黃昭吉委員國昌報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定"},{"start":2503.204,"end":2521.679,"text":"针对本会第一次全体委员会议议事录因本会出席委员名单召集委员选举委名册及选举事项之结果和过程和结果均拥有一亿故就此部分之议事录记载与该次会议内容实际发生之事实不符应以更正或移除"},{"start":2522.58,"end":2523.661,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤"},{"start":2554.909,"end":2577.885,"text":"好那如果都沒有錯誤的話議事錄確定現在繼續進行討論事項請宣讀討論本會調閱文件與資料保管及查閱注意事項與其他相關事宜宣讀完畢好那我現在進行了處理那現在我們有收到由林思明委員葉元之委員等"},{"start":2580.535,"end":2591.445,"text":"七位委員共同提案你調閱的文件與資料那請問對於七位委員提案調閱文件與資料等事宜有無意見"},{"start":2594.789,"end":2619.165,"text":"來請沈伯陽委員沒有我是想說是不是要先說明先請林思敏委員說明主席我想我們第一次今天召開這個會議我們開始來進行整個對於國發基金不當投資以及管理失當的相關的這個職權的行使那我們今天開的會我想"},{"start":2619.605,"end":2646.946,"text":"我們首先就是要去調閱相關的文件與資料以利於我們未來的持續來進行整個基金投資由不當或者相關的人員有沒有管理失職的這樣的一個問題存在所以我們你請調閱行政院國家發展基金針對民國100就從民國105年起所投資的直接投資組合中重要新興事業"},{"start":2648.067,"end":2675.829,"text":"歷年持股的比例變化歷年投資金額歷年供股代表名單歷年投資績效以及他的虧損情形的相關的一個文件第二個我們這個擬調閱行政院國家發展基金對民國105年所投資的直接投資組合中重要新興事業的評選所召開的相關會議這包含了"},{"start":2676.73,"end":2692.996,"text":"那也包含但不限於行政院國家發展基金管理會創業投資審議會國發政策評估會以及投資評估審議委員會的會議記錄會議資料以及簽到部"},{"start":2695.418,"end":2709.553,"text":"民國105年起行政院國家發展基金依據行政院國家發展基金直接投資事業退場機制作業要點所造開的事故政策評估會議資料及簽到表"},{"start":2712.856,"end":2727.739,"text":"第四個我們擬請調閱國家發展委員會行政院國家發展基金管理會與民國105年起所投資的直接投資組合中重要新興事業所有"},{"start":2728.16,"end":2756.121,"text":"往來的韓文我想這些文件呢都跟我們要調查國發基金有沒有不當投資以及管理失職有相關連的一個議題所以我們認為這個有調閱的必要性那請各位委員支持好謝謝林世民委員那針對林世民委員提案的內容以及所做的說明那請問在場的委員有無意見來請沈伯陽委員"},{"start":2757.969,"end":2780.126,"text":"這個我先講一下比較程序上的問題就是說當然這個1234最主要一開始是跟歷年投資然後再來是他的這個入場跟出場最後是往來韓文那因為這一個範圍非常的大這個就牽涉到一開始我們在訂這個調查委員會的時候其實他的範圍就沒有特定然後變成說我們現在是到今天為止然後才看起來有特定但其實他範圍還是很大"},{"start":2781.307,"end":2800.389,"text":"這一看這個光是如果只是直接組合的重要新興事業應該有七八十家吧所以就是說如果我們用這樣的一個範圍大家當然有過大但我覺得我這個是等一下再要討論我現在想問的程序是說因為今天到底哪一些是他有辦法提供的哪一些提供了然後哪一些可能是有上市上櫃的這個是不是應該請"},{"start":2801.79,"end":2813.664,"text":"國發基金應該要來現場你說他如果現場來跟我們對這件事情我們在討論的過程當中就可以知道說我們這個範圍應該要怎麼限定嗎所以我想先問一下就是在程序上面我們是不是應該有國發基金的人來說明"},{"start":2816.905,"end":2830.976,"text":"主席先回覆一下沈伯陽委員我們目前這個國發基金調查委員會我們是按照通過的運作要點來加以運作的那當然在立法院執行刑事法"},{"start":2832.15,"end":2856.575,"text":"相關的規定當中他們有不提出的法定事由那國發基金或者是國發基金管理委員會他們在含附本調查委員會的時候他們本來就可以加以續名那過去既往在其他的調閱委員會有發生相同的狀況的時候也是做這樣子一併的處理所以程序上不會有什麼問題只是第一點先做說明"},{"start":2857.788,"end":2874.81,"text":"第二點剛剛那個沈伯陽委員有關心說這樣的調閱範圍是不是會過於廣泛等等的問題那在這邊跟委員會所有的委員做了一個先做一個簡單事實上面的說明因為"},{"start":2875.911,"end":2905.245,"text":"依照我們目前國發基金管理委員會從105年起直接投資組合的重要新興事業因為在今天提案的內容當中他已經明確的限定時間的範圍以及課題的範圍那目前為止按照統計從105年起所直接投資的新興事業總共34家以上說明請問其他委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2909.924,"end":2936.954,"text":"請沈伯陽委員這個是根據要點來做這個我沒有意見我剛剛的意見是比較簡單的我的意見是說效率上因為現在的範圍劃定是這個樣子因為他又有牽扯到一些上市上櫃所以我只是說在效率上面如果我們要等他函還不如說請他自己來說明速度會比較快我這時候要再講這一點謝謝沈伯陽委員的寶貴意見剛剛主席已經有說明過了我們按照這個運作要點發函去跟他們索取這些資料"},{"start":2937.725,"end":2958.954,"text":"那哪些資料是他們沒有的或是依法他們有法定的事由可以拒絕提供的包括了國發基金管理委員會包括了我們的國發會他們在函附的時候都可以具體的表明那我以一個例子來跟各位委員做參考當初在交通委員會"},{"start":2960.234,"end":2976.757,"text":"在針對淨電式的弊案成立調閱小組的時候那個時候交通委員會他也是去了一個函給NCC那要求他提供資料那NCC最後回覆了資料有些有提供有些沒有提供"},{"start":2977.398,"end":3004.768,"text":"那真的以實際上面的狀況來講是為了要節省大家的時間我們先按照這樣子一個1234客觀範圍非常明確的內容那調查委員會先去函請相關的主管機關提供等他們回覆來了以後有哪些提供有哪些沒有提供那沒有提供是不是有法定的適由還是有客觀上面的困難到那個時候"},{"start":3006.26,"end":3027.562,"text":"到那個時候我們再請行政機關的代表來練習國發基金調查委員會來說明跟全體的委員做說明哪些資料他們已經提出來那哪些資料他們基於什麼樣的理由沒有提出來這樣子的進行或許會更有效率一點那因為今天已經有委員正式的提案"},{"start":3028.223,"end":3048.993,"text":"那主席站在主席的立場還是要尊重提案委員的權益那以上針對剛剛委員所垂詢的事項做以上的說明那請問針對零四名委員等七名委員提案要調閱的文件跟資料的範圍請問在場的委員還有沒有其他的意見來請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":3051.178,"end":3059.074,"text":"主席 那麼我們剛剛看到了提案委員所擬的擬調閱文件與資料那麼這裡面的四點"},{"start":3060.345,"end":3080.684,"text":"那因為可不可以請提案委員說明一下那當這些是林思明委員啦OK好那就是請教提案委員包括林委員在內的提案委員那這裡面的四點當中我看第一點啦這個部分呢應該國發會本身它所謂的105年起歷年持股比例變化我想這個國發應該有"},{"start":3082.405,"end":3101.514,"text":"歷年投資金額應該也有歷年公股代表名單應該不難查到然後歷年的投資績效及虧損情形這個他們要應該要時間去算應該要有那接下來呢您提到的這個第二點第三點第四點我先從後面來第四點這裡105年起這裡的所有往來韓文的這個部分"},{"start":3107.864,"end":3126.28,"text":"因為我是不太了解這個韓文的範圍的內容根據檔案法這105年以後的都應該都有留存所以這些韓文應該有保留這應該不成問題那至於說這些直接投資組合中的重要新興事業"},{"start":3127.501,"end":3141.349,"text":"那這裡面呢所謂的重要新興事業如果我們有更明確的名單那這樣要調的時候呢就會更明確啦我是跟提案委員做這樣的一個建議啦你這裡的直接投資組合嘛這是一個投資當中的一個類型"},{"start":3143.61,"end":3170.08,"text":"那所謂的重要新興事業這個重要新興事業恐怕這個在定義上就會有一些討論那這是就第四點的部分那第三點的部分您這裡所說的召開事故政策評估會議會議資料及簽到表這個可能也要了解它的範圍內容然後再往前第二點第二點的內容當中寫括號"},{"start":3171.34,"end":3179.967,"text":"包含但不限於這個目前我們最近常常看到包括但不限於這裡面包括創業投資審議會還有這個國發政策評估會以及投資評估審議委員會的會議紀錄會議資料及簽到表我這裡只是有一個疑惑"},{"start":3189.614,"end":3215.197,"text":"因為過去我們作為民意機關民意代表有些民眾他們陳情我們略略會涉獵到這些內容他們所陳情的內容可能跟這些有關那這裡面有時候不只是陳情者有時候我們去查詢會對應到說相對者譬如說其他的這些公司他目前他這些公司的內容是否公司有"},{"start":3216.218,"end":3229.957,"text":"有同意國發會他可以提供這個我不是很清楚所以我是覺得這個提案委員是不是可以就這些內容上可以有更具體的描述那我們再來評估"},{"start":3232.546,"end":3257.623,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉賓委員在請提案委員為進一步的說明前主席針對剛剛我已經說明過的事項我理解因為鍾委員很辛苦剛剛在司法法制委員會召委主持重要法案的審查會議可能在途上所以我再跟各位委員再做一次清楚的報告這一次由林志明委員所提出來的這個調閱的文件資料"},{"start":3259.584,"end":3275.716,"text":"那那個第一點的部分剛剛鍾委員的說明應該也蠻清楚的這些都是國發會他本來現在應該就要有的東西了那至於二三四點剛剛鍾委員所垂詢的直接投資組合中重要新興事業那我跟各位委員報告這個"},{"start":3278.118,"end":3291.934,"text":"因為我收到了這個提案的時候那我自己來開會以前我也做了一個基本的功課我發現提案委員所講的直接投資組合中的重要信心事業這個用詞完全是依照國發會"},{"start":3293.636,"end":3316.193,"text":"完全是依照國發會他們的描述國發會對於什麼是直接投資組合的重要新興事業他們自己已經有一個清楚的定義也正是有一個清楚的定義所以目前國發會跟國家跟國發基金所謂直接投資組合的重要新興事業總共"},{"start":3317.054,"end":3345.019,"text":"有70家總共有70家那但是我們如果按照提案委員他們提案說明當中的限於民國105年也就是2016年才發生的現在的目前總共就是34家總共就是34家那這34家的名單這34家的名單在目前國發基金的年報當中都有清楚的列出來那現在總委員可能怕說這樣子如果還不夠具體的話"},{"start":3345.979,"end":3368.673,"text":"那是不是我們等一下就請議事人員就有關於國發基金他們在年報上面所清楚揭露的符合由國發會他們自己所定義的直接投資組合中的重要新興事業而且是在105年以後的列表可以把它清楚的列的出來看要另外做成副表"},{"start":3369.473,"end":3395.961,"text":"還是用念的方式做成會議記錄這個我都尊重我都尊重提案委員的意見但我就是說以主席目前的立場我看了這個提案的內容那我來開會以前我自己先做了功課做完功課了以後要特定所謂的直接投資組合中的重要新興事業在105年以後總共這34家那事實上在客觀上面是沒有什麼特定的困難"},{"start":3396.781,"end":3412.287,"text":"那不好意思因為主席前面已經有宣告過的事項再予以說明一次讓全體的委員都可以理解那針對剛剛中委員所表示的意見那看李世民委員接下來有沒有要什麼補充 請好 謝謝主席"},{"start":3414.147,"end":3436.353,"text":"好 可以啦 我們一起把他講完就是說因為剛剛有提到嘛譬如說你這個歷年投資基金他不是可能要計算嗎什麼等等之類的啊他一定要時間嘛所以我還是要回過頭去就是當然因為我們沒有給一個具體的時間但我還是想要講就是說如果剛剛中文有問一些問題如果國發基金來的話他現場就可以回答我覺得這樣比較有效率啦但是我只是追問這個還有期間的事情好 謝謝"},{"start":3439.749,"end":3454.577,"text":"先針對中委員的一個詢詢,我想也謝謝主席,我這個提案主席有很詳細的一個做那個功課,就是直接投資組合中的重要新興事業,我想剛才主席回答得非常清楚,其實這個都是國發會的定義,"},{"start":3456.718,"end":3472.493,"text":"所以這不會說因為我們這個韓文區他不曉得要調哪幾家所以他可以很具體的就我們這個所謂的重要新興事業這幾家他可以做很直接具體的來提供我們要的一個資料至於說這個"},{"start":3473.694,"end":3489.519,"text":"10成的部分我們什麼樣委員所擔心的10成的部分其實我想我們在這個你調研文件與資料裡面我們是並沒有很這個給他要求他說他要多久來提供所以其實我們也給他一個非常寬裕的一個時間那我對那"},{"start":3491.039,"end":3515.155,"text":"是 當然我們也希望說國發會所有的相關的單位能夠盡速的提供我們立法院我們要求我們調查委員會要求的相關的一個資料所以我們認為說整個這個文其實國發會的人員要不要來我想剛才主席也回答非常清楚就是等到他們把我們這個文他收到"},{"start":3515.475,"end":3541.887,"text":"他回文之後如果我們認為有不清楚或不明白的地方那我們依照我們相關的要點有沒有再請他提出補充資料那我想我們到時候再來做具體的一個建議跟要求我想這樣也是很有效率的不是一定要讓官員坐在這邊來救我們所要求的資料請他再做回答書面已經表示得很清楚就可能不用請他來"},{"start":3543.048,"end":3545.273,"text":"這樣也是很有效率的OK 好 謝謝"},{"start":3555.359,"end":3572.349,"text":"還有在場的委員我今天看到這個市民委員去你調閱文件資料列了一二三四我相信在場也很多位都是很資深的我們在食物界大家都很有經驗"},{"start":3573.71,"end":3602.489,"text":"申請調查證據裡面我們第一個要看的就是我們要帶證事實是什麼然後最主要你至少你也要先去釋明就是說你想做些什麼那我們從整個國家基金來看的話不管是整個重要新興事業的投資或者專案的一個投資我到從這四點裡面我還沒有去看到說你這四點裡面你稍微有比較"},{"start":3603.57,"end":3624.484,"text":"具體的來去簡單的去敘述你發現哪一些地方我去調查這些資料那我要來證明些什麼這個我沒看到那就是說你從105年開始就是2016嘛這個當然是非常政治性的啦就從2016年你就把它劃設成民主金服黨執政開始"},{"start":3625.905,"end":3636.757,"text":"那就當然立法院要劃定一個時間哪一個政黨開始執政去做一個查起這個我沒有意見但問題就是說你總要有一個原因"},{"start":3638.09,"end":3643.933,"text":"總不會說啪啦啪啦你認為說全部都不當你至少要稍微來釋明說哪一個部分不當那你要調閱的到底是哪一部分那現在不是現在變成說你全部這個只要是民進黨執政的任何國發基金的一個投資不管是哪一家你賺錢虧錢或者是任何一個事股那這些政策這評估的過程全部都是幣"},{"start":3659.682,"end":3672.392,"text":"我想這也不對這個就是變成說由委我們整個立法院這次成立國家發展基金不當投資跟管理私子調查委員會的運作要變你要發現了哪一項"},{"start":3674.528,"end":3680.77,"text":"那你再來去做一個調查這個社會大臣可以接受那你現在不是就是說我也不曉得他到底有沒有不當或者他這個事故到底是政策的評估裡面有沒有人模不章我全部都不知道反正你就全部給我來看一看我再來找找看這個我想可能失去我們整個當初在野黨的朋友要來成立這樣的一個調查委員會它的一個核心的一個價值"},{"start":3702.915,"end":3710.218,"text":"現在變成 我先來設飛鏢看看你就拿過來 拿過來 拿過來這個就失去了我們整個調查委員會這個整個成立的一個目的啊那不然我很想聽聽看那個林士明委員你來告訴我說我1234我剛好 我可以摸到哪一點聽聽看我來支持你你現在沒有你現在不是說 我也不知道我就是全部不知道你說拿過來我慢慢看搞不好被我看到"},{"start":3730.866,"end":3758.195,"text":"這個不是一個法律人該有的態度啊我相信你在申請調查證據的時候你不會這樣寫啦你這樣寫如果不管我是檢察官或法官馬上把你駁掉了你的證據我根本完全就不會去調查一個沒有一個簡單的一個市民嘛你現在就是設飛鏢嘛就是說任何政府就劃下了一個政黨誰哪一個政黨他所做的一個投資全部都是不當全部都是有弊那任何的一個事故那全部都是裡面都有弊端"},{"start":3759.775,"end":3787.29,"text":"也許會有喔可是你沒講因為你也不知道所以寫這四點你調閱的跟我們整個運作的一個要點你去看我們的要點你看第十一項我們第一個國發基金之投資有無不當外力介入你現在就說我不知道我怎麼會知道有沒有外力的介入你資料給我來我來看看而做出不當的投資決策我不知道"},{"start":3788.342,"end":3811.696,"text":"你要給我來我看看我才知道那這個有點開玩笑啦這個在各委員會裡面啦反而你可以做初步的去做一個努力或者說像黃國昌委員他的天線就比較高一點很多人會提供他一些數據然後去做一個追蹤這個我又認為合理的那一些不是現在是漫無目的的我管你全部給我調過來我慢慢來找找看這個會被笑"},{"start":3817.889,"end":3841.02,"text":"謝謝莊惠泉委員的意見我想從會議主席的立場先做一些客觀事實的描述沒有什麼評價第一個是時間範圍因為提案委員是限制在民國105年以後我剛剛跟大家報告過了按照國發基金他們自己所自我定義的這個範圍"},{"start":3843.442,"end":3862.639,"text":"105年後總共有34家那現在就看說是不是有其他的委員認為有必要把時間範圍給擴大如果有必要把時間範圍給擴大說不要限105年如果不要限105年的話到目前為止我所看到國發基金的資料如果不要限年限那總共有70家"},{"start":3863.84,"end":3878.345,"text":"總共有70家70家老實來講也不是一個什麼太多大的範圍但是是不是時間的範圍有必要進一步的再予以變更或更動主席這邊是尊重各位委員大家提案去變更的權利"},{"start":3879.005,"end":3904.23,"text":"那第二個部分要說明的事情是說因為今天林世民委員等七月委員的提案在客觀的範圍上是完全落入當初我們在院會決議通過這個調查委員會的調查事項的範圍在客觀範圍上是完全落入在那個範圍上面那第三個部分在整個描述的方式上"},{"start":3904.87,"end":3923.431,"text":"跟我們之前本院所成立的調查委員會或是本院所已經有調閱小組的那個前例基本上是一樣的也就是說並沒有預設的採行一個立場所謂採行一個立場是說因為本委員會的目的就是調查事實有不當"},{"start":3924.272,"end":3944.007,"text":"是不是有不當那如果我們已經先認定這個委員會先直接認定就有不當的話那當然那就可能就喪失了這個委員會我們一開始成立的時候最重要的一個宗旨跟目的所以反而林思敏委員她這樣子的寫法不僅在客觀上面符合當初院會決議的調查事項的範圍"},{"start":3946.349,"end":3958.716,"text":"那在主觀上面也沒有看到有什麼太強烈預設的立場那我想我先做這樣一個簡單的補充那不曉得是不是在場還有其他委員有其他的意見來請沈博洋委員"},{"start":3960.342,"end":3987.258,"text":"因為我剛剛在問的是程序問題啦所以我現在進入實質問題因為剛剛那個張瑞雄委員已經提了我覺得這個不是斯民委員的問題這非戰之罪啦為什麼就是因為這一個一開始這一個主題的設計就是說發展經濟不當投資管理失職調查委員會是因為這個一開始就是一個沒有好好特定範圍的主題所以導致這個斯民委員他要提這個的時候呢他就只能變成你只能這樣寫啦那"},{"start":3989.119,"end":3994.16,"text":"這個中性跟這個無關嘛,我今天也可以講說,我認為國科會有弊案,我來成立一個108年到現在,國科會所有不當合作學者調查委員會,然後全部叫過來,也很中性啊,也很中性啊,對不對。我也是中性的在描述一個事實而已啊,反正我就是覺得這一段時間有問題,我就把這一段時間的資料全部調出來嘛。"},{"start":4011.204,"end":4037.13,"text":"所以 我說這個非佔之罪就是因為它一開始就是一個錯誤的成立的調查委員會只是我現在不爭持這一點是因為它已經成立了我們也沒辦法雖然我們有表達過我們的反對意見所以現在即使在這個錯誤的前提下如果我們要好好來做調查我們現在站在調查委員會的這個角度來出發剛剛這個第一個就是因為是先調查了投資績效啊 虧損啊那是不是能夠 譬如說我們先把這第一個"},{"start":4037.87,"end":4043.068,"text":"做出來之後呢我們就可以知道說原來可能是107年對哪一家的公司出現問題了"},{"start":4044.312,"end":4067.935,"text":"然後呢我們再來針對這個來做詳細的調查這樣聽起來就合理多了嘛那不然的話我們現在的困境就會是因為一開始沒設計好我們也就找大範圍的調查那調查完之後呢反正一定會有問題沒有問題我也要想辦法找出問題那這個話就已經失去了真正的調查委員會的意義嘛那不然的話這樣說真的我們不用任何的合理懷疑啊我們只要任何的想要調查的事情全部都成立調查委員會"},{"start":4068.616,"end":4077.584,"text":"所以一開始這個前提有點錯誤啦但我不是在怪罪說這四點而是說那如果我們現在站在調查委員會的角度來處罰我們來聚焦的話那是不是可以從第一點來做一個聚焦然後他們把這個資料提出來之後我們發現哪一個問題再聚焦譬如說這個黃委員最愛講的這個聯合再生還有什麼之前還有什麼公司就是他特定的哪一家公司哪一個問題我們再來做調查嘛"},{"start":4091.537,"end":4113.096,"text":"不然的話這個也會形成一個一堆大家都要去提供這些會議資料啊、簽到表啊、往來的韓文啊那可能到最後也失去了這樣的一個意義那個謝謝沈博安委員,請問還有沒有其他委員的意見那個陳超明委員請其實這個主題非常的明顯那個超明兄你還要說多少?我才有說"},{"start":4119.194,"end":4124.84,"text":"那個協助一下,是不是那支麥克風壞了?那個請委員會的恢復同仁協助一下"},{"start":4132.509,"end":4154.541,"text":"其實這個問題很簡單啦大家也不要複雜化只有34家而且他規定的是直接投資照剛剛主席講的是34家那國外會裡面有一種直接投資有一種是跟那個"},{"start":4156.562,"end":4178.489,"text":"創投公司投資的還有一個是小型企業他投資了幾種那現在這個範圍已經很縮小了那34家你說今天我們要針對子體我是建議這樣把這34家先列出來每一個人認為這家公司有問題的話列出來我們就調查這樣很公開的嘛"},{"start":4180.35,"end":4209.731,"text":"他絕對有問題嘛 三十家沒多少啦這裡面我們大概看過了有很多都是老舊一直留下來的那我相信以這樣大家就不用爭執了等一下說範圍小 等一下又範圍擴大三十四間委員你們大家覺得哪一家有問題去做決定再來選出來 這樣比較不會亂啦選的委員裡面他自己會去主席研究啊"},{"start":4211.499,"end":4225.582,"text":"主席主席好那個謝謝陳昭明委員請問在場還有委員誰有意見來請莊瑞雄委員我的看法是這樣子啦你像比如說你說像陳昭明委員你說有34家嘛"},{"start":4227.037,"end":4242.893,"text":"立法委員對於公帑去投資哪裡那本來就可以監督本來一定可以監督這個我們都不反對我的意思就是說哈利三十四家是用我們這個調查委員會你三十四家都給我拿來我們就有點開玩笑"},{"start":4244.124,"end":4265.193,"text":"你應該是說我立法委員我在問政的時候我基於監督我去關切然後呢我去監督這個國家基金你去投資的時候到底這個政策你來跟我講清楚那這個部分我認為是每一個立法委員可以去做的事情那你因為去監督了你發現了我來在調查委員會裡面我來提案我針對這一家或者拿兩家來調查我又覺得這是非常合理啦"},{"start":4271.016,"end":4281.521,"text":"你現在不是 我就不知道 我怎麼會知道你有合法嗎 你資料沒上來 我怎麼知道那代表你這就是無中生有的我們就是漫無目標的就是說 我在亂射你 全部給我拿過來你資料都給我上來 我有錢沒錢 我辦公室有錢 還是我禮物要找到沒有不用你給我管 我就放下去就好假設"},{"start":4295.663,"end":4298.244,"text":"我今天是投資你索羅門,你們家的,就這麼簡單?國安基金應該投資就好,你會覺得你是在笑嗎?你覺得我對索羅門和國安基金有什麼利益勾結來調查不對嗎?你什麼都不問,總之是要跟我說我很害怕嗎?"},{"start":4313.541,"end":4334.152,"text":"會讓人家覺得我們有一點開玩笑不然國家基金你去投資立法院當然可以監督那都是國家的錢那我的意思是可以監督跟提到本委員會來認為你就是我的調查的對象裡面是有不當投資或者說你這一些會在投資的時候是一個不當的決策"},{"start":4335.493,"end":4340.538,"text":"你總要去釋明我發現了什麼,我再來申請調查這一些法案裡面叫申請調查證據嘛,檢察官看到什麼我要去查我們現在不是,現在就變成說,我都不用,我的心情這個道具要變成政黨惡鬥,這也不好"},{"start":4355.427,"end":4381.823,"text":"委員會裡面變成是大家合意來組成啦那應該你去譬如陳昭明你發現國際基金你投資哪一個我認為那個四股是不對的然後我那個決策是不對的或者認為我這個錢丟到哪一個公司去怎麼到最後全部都虧損了講這些就很具體大家會覺得很合理啊那現在不是是漫無目的的是你有投資的全部好啦我們講台積電就好了沒台沒機你叫台積電傳來要幹什麼"},{"start":4385.982,"end":4389.085,"text":"大家都覺得他賺錢 大家都覺得賭注料很好你說沒有 我管你 你都給我拿來我們這個要幹什麼我們的目的在這裡沒有講清楚會變成政治惡鬥啦"},{"start":4401.882,"end":4419.408,"text":"謝謝莊委員的寶貴意見先跟莊委員報告您剛舉的最後一個例子台積電不在34家的範圍之內我想怕有誤會先跟大家做一個清楚的說明接下來還有其他委員有意見嗎來請陳昌明委員"},{"start":4422.485,"end":4447.511,"text":"我想我們莊委員誤會我的意思我是要簡單又有效你都把我解釋扣到好像掉了34家假設這34家是105年以後我們所有的調查委員你覺得再生人員要調查你指定為什麼要調查這家旅遊血出來像我陳昌明如果要調查別家我一定有寫過旅遊出來這樣來做才會贏"},{"start":4453.626,"end":4463.061,"text":"我建議34家名單先出來然後看哪一些委員要調查哪幾家公司他們自己決定我們再來"},{"start":4464.591,"end":4483.724,"text":"成立這個調查委員會我相信我們就跟委員不會亂撕來說每天就要去調查啦台積電最重要他不曉得是幾年他當初的事故撕給那個荷蘭的那什麼匯率府那一次的事故撕得很大如果那個股份留下來今天不得了啦"},{"start":4485.053,"end":4501.001,"text":"但是在那個時候有一段時間事故之際到底的原因是怎樣我們也不清楚嘛我是覺得給各個委員 認為哪一家公司有問題你提出來我要調查這家公司這樣比較簡單啦 三十四個不是很多啦"},{"start":4508.182,"end":4536.401,"text":"謝謝主席的確剛剛委員的指教因為這個委員會議上次的後續的情況我們所知較少那也經過剛剛委員剛剛主席的提醒之後我們就目前公開資料比較好奇的是105年這條界線因為目前我們看到這105年符合這個標準的大概包括上市商會公司像陽明海運它就列在裡面然後呢"},{"start":4538.843,"end":4553.792,"text":"這個趙偉所關心的爐芯、聯合再生能源也都在這裡面那當然也有一些我們不太能理解的為什麼會在105年裡面譬如說台灣中小企銀我們就奇怪台灣中小企銀它是一個公股銀行"},{"start":4554.83,"end":4573.92,"text":"那他如果要進行了解的話其實不難那的確剛剛有提到所謂的台積電台積電很早啦台積電是在75年12月大概我們韓社範圍不會跑那麼遠但是有一家也不再這麼早也不是這麼近它叫理想大地它是在民國90年的時候"},{"start":4574.622,"end":4592.488,"text":"那這一家為什麼剛好是在105年這一條線之前我也不理解因為他也不是像台積電那樣很早很早了那至於這當中還有一些公司過去大家有在關切的好像一卡通票證又有人討論那這是沒有列入顯然認為他不是有問題那有些的確我們去看到一下財經版裡面過去曾經有在關切的像我因為"},{"start":4603.735,"end":4623.653,"text":"接觸一些陳情就看到譬如有三顧有樂嘉再生那因為這兩家公司呢的確我們看到的有些財經版當中的確有一些公司的新聞出來那如果這兩家因為委員們看到了新聞報導覺得要來調查我覺得就很明確的把它列出來我不是說我個人"},{"start":4624.494,"end":4638.945,"text":"我只是說從這34項名單當中就我們去判斷為什麼提案委員會列105年這條線在這105年之前的台積電不用講75年不用講那理想大地沒有列入為什麼"},{"start":4639.673,"end":4656.518,"text":"那在這一條線之後的有包括了台灣中小企銀台灣中小企銀其實公股銀行為什麼要列入有什麼問題之前不能透過其他對於委會當中對於金管會對於財政部的監督拿不到"},{"start":4657.518,"end":4676.838,"text":"那在當然在這後面當中有幾個又是我們最近比較常大家因為某些重大的國家政策而浮出檯面的像台灣國際造船這在107年像隆德造船在108年那如果大家我所記印象沒有錯的話這些都是涉及到我們國建國造潛艦國造當中"},{"start":4678.9,"end":4699.114,"text":"或者說不見得是潛艦國造是包括了我們的海巡包括了我們海軍的相關的巡防艦艇的公司那如果這些公司有問題那就問題很嚴重了那如果說針對這些問題我們質疑國艦國造過程當中是不是有什麼弊案那這樣我們就很明確所以我是覺得說這105年這一條線劃的"},{"start":4702.276,"end":4713.444,"text":"因為從剛剛到現在因為提案委員有七位嘛那領銜的林思敏委員思敏委員還沒有來得及說明那我希望說剛剛幾位委員的詢問詢詢都是關切到這34家當中有我們覺得疑惑為什麼納入的是在105年之後"},{"start":4720.129,"end":4735.159,"text":"有些是在165年之前為什麼沒有納入如果這樣講就講不完所以我們很希望說是不是具體的聚焦說如果是34家哪幾家什麼問題我們或許在委員會進行的時候可以請相關的國發會就相關的這些的韓文相關的檔案相關的會議紀錄這些委員會想知道的才有辦法請他們來提供來印證我們的懷疑是不是有事實根據以上說明"},{"start":4752.491,"end":4765.679,"text":"謝謝中央嘉賓委員主席剛剛宣告過的事情我再重複講一次給各位委員做參考目前我們在處理的是由林思敏等七位委員他們所提出來的調閱事項的範圍"},{"start":4768.18,"end":4782.195,"text":"那不管就客觀的範圍還是就時間的範圍其他委員會的委員如果有不一樣的看法都歡迎大家可以提案出來這樣我們有一個比較具體明確的目標或者是標的可以來加以"},{"start":4783.596,"end":4810.377,"text":"教育處理沒有啊我說在場的其他委員如果譬如說你認為105年不對應該要往前三年往前五年往前十年在本委員會裡面委員們大概都有相同平等可以去提案的機會因為我剛已經做過了宣告我想說再提醒我們所有與會的各位委員那請問還有其他委員有意見嗎來請莊烈雄委員"},{"start":4814.988,"end":4836.955,"text":"那個 市民先來不好意思 我剛剛沒有看到那個市民委員有舉手那我致謝 那個 先停一下莊委員您是不是同意我先讓林市民委員發言好 謝謝你 來 請林市民委員謝謝莊業熊我想我都充分尊重我們今天在場所有委員大家的一個發言喔那就是說"},{"start":4838.075,"end":4848.203,"text":"為什麼從105年開始其實該主席就講過了就是我們的整個國發基金他所謂的直接投資組合的重要新興事業是在105年開始國發會有這樣子的一個定義所以我們當然就是從這個時候來開始做這個調查"},{"start":4859.412,"end":4886.242,"text":"那我想就說該什麼委員的指教就是說那是不是從第一項開始就一年投資績效及虧損情形如果相關回覆我們察覺到有哪幾家有這種情況之後我們再來接下來做第二第三第四點我們再來做這個相關的調查這個當然這也是不無道理啦其實我想我們就是剛才基於說效率的問題其實我沒有預設立場說我已經一定要調查哪一家"},{"start":4887.242,"end":4890.565,"text":"那我們認為說要更有效率的讓我們調查委員會來了解所有這34家在整個這個國發基金投資他哪裡有不當或有沒有什麼相關的這些人有失職的地方那我們認為說整個會計錄整個這些整個當時投資過程的相關的這些會議資料我想我們都一定要去了解"},{"start":4912.242,"end":4928.24,"text":"你充分了解之後我們才能整理出我們調查委員會才能整理出相關的大概釐清相關的一個事實的一個的一個元貌我們才能做進一步的調查所以我想這也是基於效率上的一個考量"},{"start":4929.441,"end":4952.617,"text":"所以我們該主席也體會到我的用意我們真的是很中性的很客觀的希望我們的調查委員會我們不針對哪一個公司有疑問所以剛才瑞雲講說你是不是應該這個市民說哪一家公司有疑問啊所以我剛才就講了我們沒有針對哪一家公司所以我們不會去特別說哪一家公司怎樣那因為剛才講了"},{"start":4953.638,"end":4963.466,"text":"因為我們只有從報載裡面去了解說有時候哪一家公司虧損是不是有怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣相關的一些弊端所以我們現在就是說我們不去預設立場那個不好意思喔 主持差一下話我們很不預設立場那個水泳啊 抱歉你先不說話等一下就換你了你這樣說 我這樣說一段我就需要回答沒有啦 我就隨便回聽"},{"start":4976.417,"end":4995.638,"text":"那個那個 也請市議院委員稍微停一下啦就是我 就還是請各位委員尊重其他委員發言啦 水泳 先拜託先讓他講啦 講完你有意見都會給你時間講好 來 請所以我的意思說 我們把整個資料調來我們把事情的原貌大概去了解一下"},{"start":4996.058,"end":5015.787,"text":"我們不針對哪一個特定的公司他是不是有弊端我們去馬上就是司令還沒調來我就說他有問題所以我想我這是一個很客觀的提案所以我剛才講希望大家支持好 以上 謝謝主席好 那個謝謝市民委員接下來請莊銳雄委員這個林市民委員這個講法我實在聽不下去他叫做笨蛋你知道嗎"},{"start":5024.551,"end":5029.993,"text":"剛剛林士敏委員的意思是說因為我沒有預設立場啊這34家裡面我也沒有講你是哪一家啊不然你要幹什麼我們這個調查委員會就是要針對特定的哪幾家不是嗎你要針對34家我沒有意見但是你至少你是個法律人你要先釋明我發現了些什麼"},{"start":5047.057,"end":5049.278,"text":"所以我一定要調查你這個就聚焦囉你現在不是你剛剛的講法就是說我沒有特定立場我先調來看看你這個話講出來就是說我比較有預設立場我也沒有說你現在有投資有弊端啦"},{"start":5062.365,"end":5078.762,"text":"所以嘛我的意思就是說你這個叫懶惰嘛這個真的沒有效率嘛你本來該去監督的你應該是發揮你立法委員的職權你去監督他你發現了說國發基金你放了多少錢多少錢在哪幾家公司裡面是不當的"},{"start":5083.986,"end":5100.758,"text":"你聽不懂我的意思你跟廣告長對他如何你講我跟他講一句話他就叫我不要跟你講你跟他講多久莊惠雄委員我必須要持平的講因為他沒有按麥克風阿姑仔你有請麥克風所以我善意提醒你一下來繼續請莊惠雄委員沒有請麥克風叫他善意喔沒有請麥克風叫他騷擾你知不知道來 這樣"},{"start":5106.763,"end":5110.945,"text":"我不會說出來這個市民委員你講的越講越心虛啊你怎麼會不心虛你辦過的案子裡面你哪一個案子在調查證據的時候你不需要去市民整個代證事實的哪有說好啦這個案子給你審啦不管你是做法官還是做檢察官給你審啦現在一個人跟他說你給我調查調查他會說你是要叫我查什麼"},{"start":5132.495,"end":5158.524,"text":"你這個哪叫準備程序調查委員會不是在準備調查委員會不是說你不能針對目的調查委員會本來就是要針對特定的目的哪一些投資會有弊端哪一些決策有錯啊你現在又告訴我說我沒有預設立場34家我都沒有說他有問題你這個很可怕你這種態度很可怕"},{"start":5159.898,"end":5178.749,"text":"不不不不不我們這個叫做調查委員會你要針對失職的那你告訴我嘛你現在的前提是說我們要調查他有沒有這些官員投資有沒有失職嘛啊你現在告訴我說我哪知道他有沒有失職你又沒有給我資料你代表我毫無發現的時候"},{"start":5182.344,"end":5193.594,"text":"你那個叫做國會議員該去監督到底哪一些官員有沒有失職那個可以去做那立法院我都沒有意見那我現在跟你講的就是說你現在放了34家那34家裡面你要來告訴各位成員說你看這34家好可惡喔這些官員給我拿去亂投資績效這麼差事故這個決策是有錯誤你跟我講這個我會支持你耶"},{"start":5206.886,"end":5223.338,"text":"啊你現在告訴我說我又沒有說這34家有問題但是你要調來看看我才知道有沒有問題你這叫做搞政治鬥爭而已嘛你具體去指涉幾家然後搞不好讓你摸到了也不一定啊你現在不是亂打亂射飛鏢你說查調過來我看看是啊你這句話對啊那你就把有問題的列出來啊"},{"start":5236.511,"end":5244.956,"text":"所以說嘛 所以說嘛我們要調查的是有問題的你現在是說我哪知道哪裡家有問題全部都先當有問題這樣對不對我這個不是立場這是基本常識好不好來來來 你先看看我們這個名稱我們成立這個委員會的名稱叫做什麼"},{"start":5265.612,"end":5269.574,"text":"不是調咱們投資不當,是不當投資我們要把那些人給揪出來那個我想請教一下莊委員,您發言完了嗎?可以了齁,好來我們接下來請崇嘉賓委員"},{"start":5286.206,"end":5313.023,"text":"好謝謝主席那個謝謝主席三番兩次幫我們提案人市民委員做說明啦那我終於知道34家來源了也確定了新興事業那新興事業可能我這樣講剛剛市民委員在強調說105年之後的是新興事業這是國發會的定義但是我不能理解為什麼原因讓你覺得這些新興事業有問題"},{"start":5314.404,"end":5326.994,"text":"因為我們在這個本委員會成立的提案案文在院會的時候是寫說有包括爐心包括了聯合再生那這一個是在106年一個107年那是否因為他們是106年107年落在新興事業的範圍所以你就全部的新興事業都有嫌疑舉個例子啦"},{"start":5339.324,"end":5354.575,"text":"阿伯阿公他腳踏車沒了啦警察問他說你有沒有看到什麼異常看到兩個年輕人有鬼鬼祟祟的那糟糕了這年輕人的定義是幾歲那警察就說好吧那我們就附近的只要是95年次的通通找來問"},{"start":5357.068,"end":5372.231,"text":"我不知道這樣可不可以啦又或者說呢這個我看到人個子很高糟糕了個子高這個定義在我們這些那個年代175沒有175你不要說你高個子現在年輕人不得了啦185才算高個子啊"},{"start":5372.711,"end":5378.953,"text":"那你叫這個警察怎麼辦案如果阿伯跟你說那個腳色不見之前看到兩個年輕人鬼鬼祟祟個子很高那到底要從幾年次開始調查從幾公分開始調查還是說就明確的我看到那個是張三跟李氏我們家隔壁的那兩個小貓頭那警察當然先去說從張三跟李氏找來問嘛"},{"start":5393.596,"end":5421.965,"text":"那今天我們的題外我們就講很清楚啦就是盧興跟聯合再生這明明有子民道姓有張三有李氏很明確的這兩家你不能因為他們兩個張三跟李氏長得有185公分年紀又在95年次以後你就說那個全部我們村裡面所有這個年次以後生的所有這個身高以上的通通找來調查都已經告訴你名字了嘛盧興也講了嘛聯合再生也講了嘛那這樣子我們"},{"start":5423.12,"end":5441.565,"text":"沒有具體的理由的就以這兩家公司是在105年之後被投資的而且呢他們就是剛好這105年也是事後去知道說國發化有一個105年的就有一個類別叫做新興投資範圍那如果明明知道班上哪兩個同學可能有什麼問題"},{"start":5443.106,"end":5469.524,"text":"你就把那兩個早學找到訓導處問啊怎麼會把全班全班都找去你們這個班叫做三年假班人家說跟三甲有關的那三甲的張三理事不只全部通通調去問所以呢我這裡是要跟林士明委員請教說既然提案文已經明確的講到盧興跟聯合再生那為什麼我們不第一個階段先請個提案文的1234把盧興跟聯合再生都找來"},{"start":5470.385,"end":5489.166,"text":"然後好好的看當中哪些數據剛剛莊委員說的他的不當投資是誰有責任這兩家公司投資的管理失職是哪些會議上所做的錯誤決策是要就較於提案委員這個問題不是在質疑你為什麼是新興公司也不是在質疑你為什麼是105年剛剛我們沒有在質疑105年"},{"start":5492.209,"end":5513.782,"text":"沒有在指100年你也可以化成90年啊你也化成是100年啊但是問題是你講的類別是剛好新興事業是105年那剛好如新跟聯合再生是繞在這個範圍內於是呢你全班同學都找來問就告訴你是張三跟李氏了為什麼不先問張三李氏就這樣的意思而已嘛所以市民委員我們並沒有說"},{"start":5515.703,"end":5538.732,"text":"懷疑您的用意那你說那因為你把全部的新興資料都調出來我們那麼就疑惑倒不是質疑你的105年的界限範圍啦是說為什麼不先聯合再生跟爐心先來查好不好那個我要先不好意思喔那個林思敏委員因為剛剛沈伯陽委員先舉手所以我要先尊重他那我們先請沈伯陽委員"},{"start":5540.342,"end":5566.809,"text":"我還是要強調我覺得這個林思敏委員真的是被這個前面的這個前提害了啦那這個前提因為我剛又去拿這個原本我們院會做成的決議那他一開始提的是如新跟聯合再生嘛那時候在調查委員會的時候我就有發言過我就有講說這感覺好像已經調查完了嘛因為這個已經是已經在檯面上大家現在已經說如新怎樣聯合再生怎樣那我們現在要連結的就是說呢我們會認為說可能投資都有相關的爭議但"},{"start":5568.909,"end":5588.795,"text":"假設像如昕跟聯合再生都是因為有人爆料有人陳情等等之類的把這個嫌疑拿出來然後說所以我們要調查我覺得這個聽起來是正當的但現在第一個就是我們剛講有34家嘛那到底是哪幾家有那個一開始初始的那個不管是陳情啊嫌疑啊等等之類的如果有的話我們可以很快的就說"},{"start":5589.575,"end":5617.506,"text":"我就認為陽明海運106年這個投資的因為有人爆料說怎樣怎樣所以我們要特別針對這個我覺得這樣才會是一個比較好的啟動方式而且因為這個我是自己再去看這個國家發展的記報雖然他後來這個重要新興事業投資的定義是105以後開始但因為他可以回溯以前他也會說哪些是重要新興的事業投資所以變成說只要是按照他這個新的定義加起來他自己列的是70"},{"start":5619.567,"end":5643.585,"text":"剛剛好70家那我就會覺得說那是不是這70家其實我們都要注意如果說按照一樣的邏輯的話但是就算我們認為這70家我們都應該要注意譬如說理想大地我們認為要注意我們認為Gogoro要注意元晶太陽能我們應該要注意那一定是因為有一個初始的嫌疑嘛那不然的話呢我們畢竟我們在做的這個調查按照我們上次通過的要點"},{"start":5644.446,"end":5667.964,"text":"其實某種成立是一種公權力的形式這個公權力的形式我想中憲委員會也很熟悉警察在做這種事情的時候他一定有一個合理的懷疑我們現在不是在做臨檢不是說什麼就是這個路口封起來只要經過的人全部都給我過來然後我們看到底哪一個人有嫌疑我們應該我們以我立法院調查委員會的層級好像不應該是做類似臨檢的動作而是應該有一定的懷疑"},{"start":5668.484,"end":5687.515,"text":"那因為有一定的懷疑我相信不管是我們的這個主席或者說國民黨的一些委員可能本來就有接到一些可能爆料啊或者什麼等等之類的我覺得這可以當作第一個標準嘛就是列一個標準第二個標準就是我剛剛講的在你寫的那個第一點市民委員寫的那個第一點就是什麼"},{"start":5688.476,"end":5702.393,"text":"投資績效啦 虧損情形啦這感覺應該也是可以作為一個標準那我們可以把這些標準列出來之後呢然後再說我們根據這個標準我們挑來哪些公司然後我們來做相關的調查這樣反而好像也不一定要限在105這一個時間點這是我的一個建議"},{"start":5710.717,"end":5724.123,"text":"主席我想我再做最後的發言其實我想謝謝大家的指教其實我要再重申我想我的立場非常明確我沒有任何預設的立場說對34家IT是哪一家有問題"},{"start":5725.504,"end":5741.713,"text":"那其實我是依照我們這個通過的運作要點第11條就是我們本會調查的對象就是國家發展委員會他的所屬以及行政院國家發展基金管理委員會等有關機關我們對他的這個調查事項的範圍我們做出今天這一個這個這個擬調閱文件與資料的這樣子的一個提案"},{"start":5755,"end":5771.212,"text":"所以我想我並沒有逾越整個我們運作要點做出這樣的提案當然大家的意見我想我充分與你尊重但是我還是要重申今天做這樣子的一個提案完全是基於一個我覺得我們既然要成立調查委員會那我們對於說國發會"},{"start":5774.414,"end":5795.232,"text":"他這個所直接管投資主要所管理的重要的新興事業那我們以免掛一漏外我們就希望說每一家每一家我們都能夠提供請他提供相關的他的這些這個投資的績效以及虧損的情形作為我們日後再進一步調查的一個依據那絕對沒有預設立場"},{"start":5797.794,"end":5812.09,"text":"不要去報宅說哪幾家哪幾家我們就一定要限於只調查哪幾家也請各位委員能夠了解我的用意以上 謝謝好 謝謝林思明委員請問在場委員還有沒有意見來 請莊瑞雄委員"},{"start":5814.472,"end":5839.032,"text":"謝謝 市民委員這樣的講法我還是跟你再來做一個聚焦啦不預設立場是好事啦但是總是有一個合理的可疑再來在一個至少有一個合理的可疑然後在整個調查委員會裡面來提案這個才會社會上想看到的是調查委員會發揮這樣的一個功能嘛你說有弊端或者亂投資執政黨都不會去包庇的 你放心啦"},{"start":5843.991,"end":5857.475,"text":"我也不會去包庇啊我都認為我會支持你啊老百姓的錢國家的錢拿去亂投資裡面有人模不章那當然不只是要追究還要移送法辦像我的意思就是說你反而把它講反了你說34家我不預設立場好 不預設立場就好事但是我只要你告訴我說哪一些蛛絲馬跡我認為裡面涉及到弊端將來提案這樣子的意義才"},{"start":5873.979,"end":5875.64,"text":"才是調查委員會裡面我們要來調查的不然你說把我覺得全部一網打盡先來篩篩看"},{"start":5882.905,"end":5893.231,"text":"國會可以監督喔我認為國會可以監督你時間夠的話你可以這樣去玩喔但是我們既然是一個調查委員會的話我們是不是可以聚焦你比如說聯合再生這黃委員常常在講的他也舉了一些證據或者說你說盧興這個我都尊重像你講的很具體了那你說這個國會裡面我們去反對你說可以調閱這些資料那我們沒有道理我們沒有道理但是你說要把它一網打盡"},{"start":5908.659,"end":5922.464,"text":"你又告訴我說我沒預設立場我也不知道沒看到資料以前我不知道他有沒有弊端這樣又把我們整個委員會又落掉了就變成說你該監督的前階段你譬如說各委員會你可以去做成決議的要求官員我要做一個強力的監督你要來告訴我哪一些是什麼或者說你發現了說我這怎麼公帑投資下去了那怎麼是虧損連連這有問題"},{"start":5934.688,"end":5954.604,"text":"那這個有問題我來指明了我要來調查這個沒有人會認為說你這樣不管是問政或者調查有任何的一個不當可是你現在又告訴我說我不預設立場我都不知道我要先看資料以後才說所以調查委員我們就來調查這些怪啦我是告訴你說這個在我聽起來就覺得很奇怪以上好不好再一次的奉勸好 謝謝莊瑞璇委員那請問在場委員有無意見來請吳思亞委員"},{"start":5967.905,"end":5987.787,"text":"那這樣子對不起我更正一下那我們請陳超明委員其實這樣討論討論不完民進黨執政黨在房子調查105年那我是提示一個我們對一個今天有34家當然要針對對象第一個他的股權"},{"start":5989.909,"end":6004.341,"text":"國發會投資的比例多少它歷年的績效如何是賺錢還是虧損還有它的股東名冊那這裡面其實你看到一個台三顧問台三基金當初也在立法院裡面"},{"start":6006.087,"end":6024.334,"text":"大家講了很久,也催促了很久,但是它有一點你沒有辦法去監督、去了解。因為它的政府國外的投資沒有超過50%屬於民間企業,你只能說曉得它投資,你沒有辦法監督。"},{"start":6025.234,"end":6040.586,"text":"我一直在說這件事啦,大家都在我委員會,都很公平。那把這個資料看完,每一個委員認為哪一家有公司有問題的話,他就提起一個視訊出來跟大家報告,這樣就好了,不然這個會不會完啦。"},{"start":6043.763,"end":6071.735,"text":"34家不多很容易看啦請會計師一看就馬上瞭解啦所以你先給34家的基本資料出來就好了嘛那下一支開會的話每一個委員提出他要監督哪一家公司要看哪一家公司有問題但是要提出他的證據出來啦不然今天這樣說不算好建議是這樣好謝謝陳昌明委員那我們接下來請吳志耀委員發言"},{"start":6073.603,"end":6088.922,"text":"謝謝大家辛苦了,第一次發言。誠如我在這個調查委員會成立之初,我就提出大概如同剛剛本黨幾位委員的見解,這是一個調查的主體不明,包山包海。"},{"start":6089.463,"end":6113.946,"text":"沒有辦法精準打擊的調查委員會那直至於我今天手上看到的這個提案其實坦白講這個調閱的文件跟資料經濟委員會的委員平常都可以去調閱都可以去了解透過你的質詢透過你在對於國發會行使立委的監督職責的時候其實都可以去關心國發基金的很多投資的政策執行"},{"start":6115.407,"end":6136.778,"text":"所以今天既然是一個調查委員會人家說不管是先射箭或畫再畫把或是先畫把再射箭我不知道這個是屬於哪一種狀況就是全部掉來然後你沒有辦法去精準的去mark去target你認為有問題的部分"},{"start":6140.222,"end":6165.283,"text":"那我們大家坐在這裡都是這個調查委員會的成員請問調來的資料可能疊得多高我不知道會不會像我們每年審預算預算書疊得那麼高我不知道我們作為一個負責任的或者是要能夠在我們的職權範圍有能力去吸收資料"},{"start":6166.084,"end":6190.24,"text":"翻閱資料 解讀資料的這個權限的形式上來看你掉了這一拖拉庫34家加起來105年到現在當然我也很質疑啦你的target是105年開始而105年以前就沒有問題105年以後就有問題也OK啊 那你指出哪些間有問題嘛或是哪一個年度 哪個月份有問題嘛"},{"start":6191.861,"end":6206.552,"text":"那都沒有辦法我真的可以預測這個調來資料可能是像預算數一樣高請問我們在場這些委員不管各黨誰有能力誰有餘裕誰有專業一張一張會議記錄翻著看一頁一頁投資的績效來核對我覺得是實質上執行上也有相當的困難那"},{"start":6220.33,"end":6246.981,"text":"所以提案委員是私名大哥嘛我也不知道提案委員您示意一下要來的你的第一點歷年持股比例變化歷年投資金額歷年公股代表名單歷年投資績效及虧損情形好啊你有辦法我們要花多少時間幾天幾夜對不對我們還有我們各自委員會的本務嘛第二點裡頭更要細到他們的會議紀錄會議資料及簽到表"},{"start":6251.906,"end":6274.672,"text":"第三點一樣又依據事故政策評估的會議記錄會議資料跟簽到表你如果覺得幫助國發會人家可以精準的提供資料哪一個月份哪一筆的投資哪一個公司的哪一個個案的執行你們認為顯有疑義可能涉及弊端這樣大家是不是"},{"start":6275.911,"end":6303.908,"text":"省市清楚明白否則你現在是從空泛的當中去找問題那不需要成立調查委員會你就回到經濟委員會去行使你的職權在我來看這是經濟委員會的委員每年在執行的他的監督要項那這個調查委員會有什麼特別之處所以我們一直希望說到底對於哪一個哪一間公司有異議"},{"start":6305.802,"end":6309.389,"text":"而且一直在說我們不能這樣漫無目的的去質疑"},{"start":6313.154,"end":6336.099,"text":"因為這當中可能會涉及哪些公司就像我們講不管是聯合再生或者是如昕曾經在提案委員的這個提案書裡頭寫的有的是監察院在查有的是檢調在查我們把手伸到了司法體系或監察院裡頭其他的憲法機關的權力核心領域我們也沒有這個權力啊"},{"start":6338.246,"end":6347.039,"text":"所以我看國發會的同仁看到這個可能整個過年在家裡抱頭痛哭好了光整理這些資料不曉得用幾個卡車運過來"},{"start":6349.416,"end":6367.852,"text":"請問我們我之前也在司法法治委員會我也詢問過這個問題我也想請這個主席或是我們調查委員會的這些幕僚同仁我很想了解我們的各黨委員成員非常明確但是呢依據一個立法院職權新施法"},{"start":6368.939,"end":6385.226,"text":"多數被宣告違憲一個拼裝車不完整的立法院的調查權的行使所組成的調查委員會請問我們在場的議事人員辛苦你們了你們各來自於立法院的哪一個編制你是經濟委員會派來的還是你是財政委員會的專委就是說就這些我們的幕僚同仁他們怎麼分工他們怎麼去cover怎麼去處理應對"},{"start":6398.309,"end":6423.505,"text":"這一個調查委員會要進行的事務我在審議立法院的預算的時候我也問啊我也問說我們現在這麼多雨後春筍的調查委員會一個一個成立那立法院未來怎麼針對每一個調查委員會你是要增加人力或者是說你從哪裡來組建這個各個調查委員會的同仁好那你的"},{"start":6424.905,"end":6442.117,"text":"這個人事費是不是足夠都反映在預算上因為這對我們的議事人員就增加非常多的業務的時間跟負擔所以我想問一下等一下或許是主席可以跟我們示意一下要這麼多的調查文件跟資料"},{"start":6443.072,"end":6470.364,"text":"好我們姑且不要論我們的立委有沒有這個心思餘裕或是這個真心誠意或這個專業真的要來解讀這些資料我很想知道本調查委員會的議事人員的組成有多少位他們來自於哪些委員會的組成那就他們的評估這些資料怎麼樣來分工消化怎麼提供在未來的會議上能夠讓幫助委員們一起來進行了解"},{"start":6474.065,"end":6501.117,"text":"所以結論就是 我不知道到底要查什麼誰可以告訴我要查什麼議事人員麻木得修啦不只這個國發會提供這些資料的同仁真的是很難過年我看我們立法院這些議事人員麻木得修很難過年所以主席可以幫我們回答一下嗎我們調查委員會這些議事同仁有多少人員我們很想替他們爭取合理的"},{"start":6502.556,"end":6507.692,"text":"對 工作時間的增加 工作loading的增加這個東西是主席可以回覆一下嗎謝謝"},{"start":6512.071,"end":6538.436,"text":"謝謝吳士堯委員的發言針對吳委員剛剛所提到的幾個事項在我會議主席可以處理到的職權範圍當中我跟委員會的委員們做報告第一個本委員會有關議事人員人員資調派完全是由秘書處在秘書長的分配下面來加以進行對我個人而言我不認識"},{"start":6539.716,"end":6555.119,"text":"任何的一個議事人員這個是本委員會的成立是因為院會已經做成了決議在院會做成了決議了以後秘書長就顯院長之命那針對必要議事人員的分派"},{"start":6555.74,"end":6576.513,"text":"那我相信在立法院裡面有關於議事人員在處理的事項從來也不是接受個別委員的指揮是由秘書處這邊來加以處理的那首先就議事人員的部分在我執掌範圍之內可以理解的我先說明如上那個不好意思請委員那個麥克風按掉因為我話還沒有說完"},{"start":6578.954,"end":6601.308,"text":"那第二個部分當然吳委員也垂詢了那個資料量會不會很大如何如何那這個我可能沒有辦法幫國發會來回答但是我可以依照既有的經驗以我自己個人過去既有的經驗來提供給各位委員做參考這個資料量絕對不像各位委員所想像當中的大"},{"start":6602.188,"end":6629.362,"text":"那為什麼我會這樣子說呢?請容我說明第一個我第一次當立委的時候深入去挖的是盧興的弊案盧興的弊案今天那個市民委員如果按照市民委員所提的那個1234那個1234的東西我幾乎都調到幾乎幾乎但是不是全部送來的大概就三個資料夾沒有別的送來的就三個資料夾"},{"start":6630.882,"end":6659.731,"text":"沒有別的那第二個部分是說那經濟委員會都可以去調那我自己第二個經驗我也跟大家分享我第二次回到立法院以後我再去跟國發會調其他投資案一模一樣的資料國發會就拒絕提供國發會就拒絕提供那當然我從一個個別立委的角度來講我是充滿了困惑我那時候2017年要調爐心的調得到"},{"start":6660.816,"end":6685.224,"text":"我再回來以後一模一樣的東西因為我請我辦公室的同仁把我以前的檔案找出來我只有改公司名其他的敘述都沒改變一模一樣的發給我們的國發會我們的國發會是拒絕提供拒絕提供那拒絕提供的範圍到什麼程度呢拒絕提供的範圍是開會委員的名單跟簽到簿都不給"},{"start":6686.414,"end":6711.975,"text":"那個東西我以前就要過啊但他們現在就不給我也覺得很困惑當然我也有在反省在思考是不是我在調盧星案的時候因為那些會議紀錄跟簽到簿被我調出來社會大眾普遍知道原來我們那個國發基金相關的審查委員會不是請假就是代理一拖拉鼓的人通通都沒有來所以導致出來所呈現的荒謬的狀況是什麼"},{"start":6713.556,"end":6735.983,"text":"荒謬的狀況就是主席這樣子講他那個會就只是過個水因為我這些過去在爐心相關質詢的帶子目前在網路上面都可以搜尋得到那我今天以就是說過去的 既往的個人的一些小小的經驗提供給各位委員做參考的是不是符合客觀描述的事實當然社會大眾"},{"start":6736.863,"end":6756.62,"text":"都可以去做檢驗所以如果說是以去調的話那我就真的要跟大家講我的經驗我之前調爐心的時候很多都還調得到當然不是全部當然不是全部有很多他們也不給我那但是到現在再回來立法院以後一模一樣的東西再去調"},{"start":6759.443,"end":6773.601,"text":"國發會國發基金就不給了那說不給就不給我拿他們也沒有辦法人家就不給我能夠怎麼辦呢那第三個部分是說是不是有監察院在悉數當中的案子如新"},{"start":6775.123,"end":6804.093,"text":"就我自己個人所知的部分我跟大家報告因為我那個時候人不在立法院的時候我人在民間社會的時候我擔任台灣公益階屏存在保護者協會的理事長那那個時候的監察院他為了要去調查這個案子曾經有發函本協會那希望本協會派專家過去協助那基於公益的目的我們也做了這一件事情那到目前為止就我所知"},{"start":6805.093,"end":6825.578,"text":"就是監察院有在調查的盧興、東北跟聯合再生那這三個調查目前監察院已經調查完畢了已經調查完畢了調查報告跟糾正報告都在監察院的網站上面大家都可以看得到所以也沒有什麼侵奪監察院職權的問題因為監察院已經調查完畢了"},{"start":6828.459,"end":6852.199,"text":"那當然從立法院的角度來講從我個人的角度上面來講我看了監察院的那個調查報告那我就必須要老實的跟大家分享我的看法就是失望透底就是失望透底一個堂堂的監察院認為他們有很多調查的權限有很多調查的人員還有調查官配合監委在行使職權"},{"start":6853.48,"end":6867.315,"text":"調查出來的東西就只有長成這個樣子最後做一個不痛不癢的糾正半個人都沒有被彈劾我個人對於監察院說已經終結的調查報告跟糾正報告我主觀個人的評價是這個樣子"},{"start":6869.758,"end":6896.094,"text":"那我還是要回到今天會議主席的身份因為今天我是以主席的立場來主持這一場會議那我還是要尊重在場委員今天因為已經由林世民委員他已經提了具體的案子出來了那當然其他的委員如果等一下針對林世民委員等七位委員所提出來的要調閱的範圍大家有不同的意見認為105年以後範圍太窄"},{"start":6898.915,"end":6922.669,"text":"應該再往前10年從95年開始或者是認為客觀範圍太多那應該要限縮那我都歡迎各位委員然後依照林思敏委員所提出來的提案來進行修正那以上先跟各位委員做如上的說明那現在目前有林思敏委員等"},{"start":6924.079,"end":6927.49,"text":"人見請本案停止討論 進行處理請問在場委員有無意見"},{"start":6931.314,"end":6950.909,"text":"有意見好那我們因為現在主席必須要依照提案的內容來加以處理那現在進行本案停止討論來加以處理所以調查委員會也是不討論只表決就對了立法院上上下下從各委員會不好意思討論很久了不好意思請各位委員尊重一下"},{"start":6954.412,"end":6964.585,"text":"主席在主持會議林志明是不是可以稍微跟我們講一下你要證明什麼主席在主持會議如果這樣調查委員會你也不用調查了主持會議我全部都順中問題是你要調查什麼你不告訴我們"},{"start":6974.025,"end":6976.188,"text":"林師明我發現了哪一家公司這家公司因為我掛進去投資我虧損了好多 指名我就說確實這個貸政事實是有必要的"},{"start":6990.169,"end":7009.245,"text":"什麼時候來 你在告狗這件事就是說一個犯罪調查先把全部人都調查一遍然後最後再來找他我還是要跟所有委員會的委員稍微說明一下我現在是按照議事規則在主持整個議事那剛剛我也都給各位委員充分發言的機會那現在"},{"start":7012.627,"end":7027.043,"text":"建請本案停止討論進付表決請問在場委員有無異議有異議有異議那我們現在就進行處理來請議事人員現在請點分數你只要你最後用表決的方式認為你想修理的人是誰"},{"start":7028.044,"end":7033.131,"text":"你都不需要有任何明確的好 那個議事人員請點人數在場幾位委員 總共有九位這個立法院就是只會表決平主討論的提案的請舉手就是只會表決"},{"start":7045.117,"end":7060.37,"text":"你還消音嗎 就是只會表決好 現在贊成的有1 2 3 4 5 6反對的請舉手這個表決院就是只會表決反對的有三位這調查委員會就是表決委員會嘛那現在林思琳委員進行反檔進行討論進覆表決6票 站隊數同步那接下來我們進行"},{"start":7070.057,"end":7076.221,"text":"針對有關於林思敏委員針對調閱的資料來進行處理那請問針對林思敏委員的提案在場委員有無異議有異議我們進行處理請請點在場人數在場人數有9位來在場的請提出按照院會按照要點"},{"start":7095.552,"end":7101.776,"text":"黃國昌是只會表決嗎剛剛這句話正正講的四次都沒有回答問題啊你如心怎麼調查跟我們現在討論的有什麼關係對啊而且現在是我要問你要調查的是如心嗎要調查的是誰講要調查的是誰講黃國昌沒有比較高明啦黃國昌還是一樣只會表決啦黃國昌就是一樣嘛"},{"start":7126.413,"end":7127.194,"text":"請尊重會議主席"},{"start":7144.956,"end":7150.262,"text":"只會消音 只會消音前面都好好講欸 程序問題只會消音 程序問題要處理啊"},{"start":7162.903,"end":7189.039,"text":"請你們尊重會議主席你有沒有尊重我們參與的委員我們今天都好好講如果要提什麼東西就正式提出來不要一直按著麥克風進行意識的干擾請提議委員提出來請提議委員提出來還要調查哪一間公司哪一個年哪一季有虧損有弊端有不當投資在本委員會當中不是這樣"},{"start":7190.48,"end":7213.462,"text":"委員彼此之間沒有相互執行的權利而且剛剛已經提了兩個標準市民委員也認為很有道理啊那為什麼就變停職討論了那這個因為我要尊重其他委員提停職討論的權利人家書面已經拿來就要進行處理了我再講一個程序問題好不好拜託程序問題程序問題是在那個要點裡面那一個"},{"start":7213.922,"end":7241.406,"text":"要把資料放在哪裡這個還沒有講清楚這個等一下就是馬上要處理的所以我說程序問題嗎所以先請你把麥克風按掉我們等一下就會請議事人員跟大家解釋程序問題為什麼要麥克風按掉好來我們先讓齊會表決不討論要調查說不清楚要調查什麼然後主席不爽就消人家的陰這是什麼調查委員會不好意思啦我們不是要委員我們一開始是"},{"start":7242.126,"end":7260.491,"text":"你昨天根本不在我們討論了多久啊吳思耀委員一直以三三來齊你三三來齊的時候前面的委員的答案前面委員的討論你通通都沒有參與所以你們沒有必要在這邊進行咆哮所以吳思耀委員都選擇了委員沒有必要在這邊進行咆哮"},{"start":7270.314,"end":7278.866,"text":"我不是王國昌跑去直播喔王國昌只會山山來遲跑去直播喔你完全不尊重每一個參與的委員第二天都不說明市民委員你為什麼不說明"},{"start":7287.617,"end":7293.543,"text":"你要調查哪一間你要調查哪一間提案的事件那每一年每一個月每一季都好那哪一間你認為有問題你要有調遞你認為哪一間的投資有問題"},{"start":7305.414,"end":7328.357,"text":"依照本調查委員會調閱所列的相關文件資料來提供給本委員會接下來有關針對調查委員會查閱注意事項請議事委員簽讀這有沒有過棒的行使我們的調查權限啊調查委員會查閱注意事項考量本會工作人員之人力配置相關文件資料與調查期限"},{"start":7329.478,"end":7338.023,"text":"那可以預告這個調查委員會未來不需要實施調查直接表決只要黃國昌認為哪一家有問題表決決定就好了如此而已"},{"start":7356.503,"end":7381.37,"text":"請問在場委員有無意見沒有我要先跟在場委員報告一下就是說因為查閱的時間如果按照以前的慣例應該是禮拜一到禮拜五上午上班然後到下午下班為止但是我們也體恤到我們議事人員的辛勞我之前有請教過他們的意見所以在調閱的時間上我們目前"},{"start":7382.35,"end":7399.101,"text":"就是只有禮拜一跟禮拜四上午九點到下午五點陳列在群閑樓的502會議室那至於說禮拜二禮拜三禮拜五委員們如果希望二三五來看的話那可能就麻煩委員們事先一天"},{"start":7400.442,"end":7425.459,"text":"先跟我們的議事同仁這邊做個通知讓我們的議事同仁他們時間好調度那因為這個調查委員會我們調查的時間跟以前的調閱小組相對而言是比較限縮但是也要體恤我們議事人員的辛勞跟工作的調度再請各位委員能夠量查那非常感謝各位委員也都同意了這個調查委員會查閱的注意事項"},{"start":7427.065,"end":7445.81,"text":"那是不是各位委員都已經同意同意那最後那個主席要宣告一下就針對我們所發函給國發會跟國發基金調查委員會請他們提供的文件跟資料這一件事情那我們的時間上面我們也不要讓"},{"start":7446.71,"end":7462.146,"text":"好像有一些委員不明就裡的指控我們要給國發會或國發基金的同仁過重的工作負擔大家都不能過年有的時候在這邊不按照議事規則來發言其實已經很不可取了"},{"start":7463.087,"end":7489.31,"text":"那如果有一些昧於事實的指控那我當然也是不會輕易的就這樣子接受那我想說時間上面因為其實客觀的範圍市民委員等人的提案已經很清楚了就34家我自己過去也有看過其中一家東西的經驗那讓他們準備上面是不是給他們一個月的時間也比較能夠充裕因為我們接下來"},{"start":7490.731,"end":7516.078,"text":"這個調查委員會我們當初成立的時候就是會延續到下個會期嘛那給一個月的時間讓我們國發會國發基金的同仁可以充分的做準備那等他們提供了以後那各位委員年後過完新春也可以來看一看這些資料那我們繼續的工作那下個會期的時候就真槍實彈的進入我們所調閱的資料是不是進一步的"},{"start":7516.758,"end":7541.749,"text":"還要再請他們提供資料甚至進一步的要求國發會、國發基金或是相關的政府官員來出席本調查委員會我想這是我們下一次開會的時候的正式的議程以上針對今天會議的內容跟大家做這樣子的說明最後請問各位委員還有沒有什麼其他的意見"},{"start":7543.902,"end":7548.085,"text":"沒有 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林福山司長 行政司 韓正華司長交通科技及資訊司 黃興勳司長陸政及道安司 蔡淑斌副司長公路局 陳文瑞局長高速公路局 趙新華局長"},{"start":2152.885,"end":2176.472,"text":"鐵道局楊振軍局長,謝謝民用航空局何淑萍局長,謝謝航港局葉協榮局長,謝謝運輸研究所蘇振維副所長,謝謝桃園國際機場股份有限公司楊維甫董事長,謝謝台灣港務股份有限公司李賢義董事長,謝謝"},{"start":2178.203,"end":2187.73,"text":"台鐵公司總經理馮輝生謝謝台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司中瑞芳副總經理謝謝"},{"start":2190.953,"end":2199.762,"text":"國發會經濟發展處邱營處長 謝謝還有環境部氣候變遷署黃偉民副署長 謝謝還有大氣環境司呂承陽兼任記者 謝謝經濟部能源署吳志偉副署長 謝謝"},{"start":2213.615,"end":2235.465,"text":"產業發展署盧文燦副組長謝謝台灣中油股份有限公司張華宇代理組長謝謝還有台灣電力公司溫黃正專業總工程師謝謝還有我們國家科學及技術委員會自然科學及永續研究發展處陳曉林副處長謝謝"},{"start":2242.162,"end":2254.58,"text":"本次會議進行陸海空交通運輸業因應近年排放轉型之改善措施專題報告請列席的機關報告那我們首先請交通部陳次長報告"},{"start":2262.874,"end":2277.379,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士各位先進今天應邀智貴委員會就陸海空交通運輸業因應淨零排放轉型之改善措施進行報告敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":2277.919,"end":2300.035,"text":"那近年來氣候變遷和淨零排放的議題為國際間高度重視的重要的議題我們在總統於113年5月20號就職的時候就已經宣示了面對氣候的危機我們必須堅定地落實2050淨零的轉型那環境部也於去年年底依據"},{"start":2301.015,"end":2308.798,"text":"氣候變遷因應法公告2030的國家制定工線的減碳新目標相較這個基準年減碳為一個28.2%那賴總統並將召開"},{"start":2316.941,"end":2343.419,"text":"氣候變遷對策委員會議來宣布我國2032年和2035年的減碳目標為了落實推動行政院的國家希望工程裡頭有關的綠色成長與2050的淨零轉型的施政目標及上開減碳的一個目標如何協助運輸業推動運輸部門的淨零轉型的工作至為的一個重要以下我就請本部的綜合規劃司"},{"start":2344.539,"end":2355.447,"text":"張垂龍市長就交通部 都道 公路 鐵路 航空 海運等交通運輸業因應近年排放轉型的相關措施進行報告 那敬請各位委員指教謝謝請張市長"},{"start":2370.348,"end":2383.007,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士先生 今天應邀到交通委員會就陸海空交通運輸業因應淨零排放轉型改善措施進行報告 今年因氣候變遷和淨零"},{"start":2384.804,"end":2410.469,"text":"海灘議題是國際間高度關注的重要議題賴總統在去年520就職典禮宣示面對氣候危機我們必須堅定落實2050淨零轉型交通部積極配合行政院國家希望工程的綠色成長及2050淨零轉型施政目標推動運輸部門淨零轉型工作我們的重點工作包括淨零關鍵戰略7運氣電動化及無碳化及關鍵戰略10"},{"start":2415.233,"end":2418.748,"text":"淨零力生活低碳運輸網路跟海陸海空"},{"start":2420.273,"end":2448.064,"text":"運減碳等如何協助陸海空運輸業者邁向淨零是重要的關鍵議題以下就交通部督導公路鐵路航空及海運等交通運輸業因應淨零碳排轉型相關措施進行報告在公路運輸業相關措施我們推動汽車客運業汰換或新購電動大客車達成2031年市區公車全面電動化的政策目標在戰略期運濟"},{"start":2449.444,"end":2461.888,"text":"電動化及無碳化已經先是2030年市區公車全面電動化的政策目標行政院在112年5月26號核定交通部提報2030年客運車客運車輛電動化推動目標總經費643億元預計在2030年補助燃油大客車、胎換或新購電動大客車達14500輛"},{"start":2475.093,"end":2485.522,"text":"截至去年11月底全國電動大客車領排數是1926輛交通部公路局在去年核定補助2080輛電動大客車其中實際核定補助業者達1364輛已經達成2030年客運車電動化推動的目標113人"},{"start":2498.172,"end":2511.859,"text":"電動以及113年市區電動公車普及率25%目標在研擬我國汽車貨運淨零轉型的整體策略規劃推廣綠色貨運部分交通部運輸研究所正辦理"},{"start":2512.879,"end":2531.426,"text":"汽車貨運業因應淨零轉型策略規劃的委託研究研擬我國汽車貨運淨零轉型的整體策略規劃交通部公務局在去年原業已經推動貨運三業公路汽車客運業遊覽車客運業探足機及探標籤綠色運輸掀起的規劃計畫主要協助業者了解探足機探標籤及探錢交易推廣綠色運輸已達成"},{"start":2542.131,"end":2548.605,"text":"營運車減碳的行為目前辦理交通部公路局及所屬監所內的相關的教育訓練及"},{"start":2550.687,"end":2566.218,"text":"客或業者的座談會後續我們將進入事辦的階段訂定運輸業探盤查指引相關的輔導措施在推動停車場經營業設置電動汽車公共充電裝部分我們在111年11月30號修正停車場法增訂第27條之一明定公共停車場應設置電動汽車充電"},{"start":2578.346,"end":2593.752,"text":"專用的停車位及充電設施在112年9月13號發布電動汽車充電專用停車位及充電設施設置的管理辦法規範再辦法發布實施兩年後公有路外的公共停車場的電動汽車充電專用停車位數應在"},{"start":2597.854,"end":2612.443,"text":"轄區內公有路外停車場的小型停車位總數設置2%以上民營路外的公共停車場部分各個停車場設置應該在1%以上到去年11月底已設置公共充電裝數一共是10,086槍同期電動小客車登記數92,156輛計算我國整體公共充電裝數之車窗比是9.1比1"},{"start":2625.872,"end":2643.547,"text":"符合歐盟的建議也可以滿足電動車的公共充電需求其中各地方政府的公共停車場已設置公共充電窗也達到3611窗在前瞻基礎建設部分公共充電窗設置及區域充電需求的評估我們編列了9.8億元在111年"},{"start":2647.27,"end":2665.922,"text":"到去年底補助地方設置公共充電窗在去年的7月8號擴大補助對象到我們狹有的觀光景點的中央機關提高財力分級四級及五級之縣市政府及偏遠地區設置公共充電窗的補助比例"},{"start":2667.063,"end":2674.148,"text":"並且增加補助充電樁的資訊管理系統建置截至去年底核定的4865槍以啟用數的計共有836槍預計再增加4029槍"},{"start":2682.054,"end":2696.082,"text":"在推動國道服務區的設置公共充電樁部分全國15處的國道服務區及東草屯休息站經已設置電動車的快充站一共有23站快速的充電站提供154格的充電車位在鐵路運輸相關"},{"start":2701.525,"end":2719.511,"text":"鐵路運輸業相關的措施鐵路運輸依據運輸部門溫室氣體減量排放管制方案以減量運氣轉移及技術改善等三大主軸發展節能減碳運輸達成運輸減碳的政策目標鐵路運輸業者均持續進行節能標章產品採購以耐換耗能的設備在國營台鐵公司部分在維持車站員服務水準的前提下"},{"start":2732.076,"end":2737.241,"text":"改建車站並以立建築為前提辦理規劃設計 汰換車站設備時優先採購節能標章等設備在今年我們預計完成旅客服務探足機標籤及32站的組織溫室氣體盤查預計在明年提出"},{"start":2751.997,"end":2766.645,"text":"公司ESG永續報告書在臺灣高速鐵路公司部分持續對車站導入節能自主管理 減少用電轉移監控用電量及合理用電等四大節能方案執行換裝LED"},{"start":2768.286,"end":2780.439,"text":"登記等多項既有設備兼能改善措施並以取得環境部高速鐵路運輸服務探足機標籤證書成為國內第一個正式取得旅客運輸服務產品類別"},{"start":2784.252,"end":2807.018,"text":"碳標籤制交通運具也在公司網站揭露各年度的企業社會責任報告書及重要碳揭露的資訊在航空運輸相關措施部分我們遵循國際規範推動我國航空燃油航空減碳工作並積極鼓勵航空公司使用永續航空燃油"},{"start":2808.258,"end":2828.313,"text":"交通部民航局遵循國際民航組織減碳ICL減碳政策持續推動航空產業的減碳執行包括引進新一代的節能航空器提升空中及地面的營運效率打造綠色機場導入永續航空燃油SAP以及推動國際"},{"start":2830.585,"end":2838.474,"text":"國際航空探底計畫及減量的計畫等策略並持續補助國際航空業者推動減能減碳的"},{"start":2840.063,"end":2865.76,"text":"的措施 交通部民航局在112年修訂民用航空運輸管理規則及普通航空業管理規則將國際航空碳底換及減量計畫機制在國內的的機制建立在國內的法制化持續督導航空公司執行監測申報查證及碳底換的工作在推動永續燃油SAF使用交通部民航局積極與相關部會"},{"start":2868.221,"end":2874.573,"text":"郵商航空業者及航空站就SAF使用進行延伸整備機場的SAF基礎設施並啟動國內機場添加永續燃油的試行計畫我們預計在"},{"start":2880.643,"end":2898.616,"text":"在今年在松山高雄及桃園國際機場為國際航空首次添加SARF加速國際航空碳排量的減碳民航局也鼓勵國際航空公司在2030年國際線使用SARF達5%進而在2050年達到ICL規範的淨零碳排目標在國際我們的"},{"start":2906.311,"end":2931.013,"text":"在我國機場並持續推動各項節能減碳措施持續推動節能及再生能源利用措施包括在去年使用國內的機場橋器橋墊太陽能光電設備的更新及設備減少二氧化碳排放量約4673公噸提升各機場地形電動車使用比例增加"},{"start":2932.154,"end":2937.822,"text":"以及空撤專用的充電樁 其中桃園機場地勤行李 拖車及人員運送車電"},{"start":2940.988,"end":2945.21,"text":"幾人員運送車的電動化比例達35.7並設置43座的專用的充電樁我們預計在116年充電專用充電樁數量將達70座未來桃園及高雄機場均以達會達到國際機場協會探認證的等級是為目標辦理各項的檢探措施在海運運輸相關措施我們規劃水運低碳化及電動化"},{"start":2969.164,"end":2992.496,"text":"推動永續替代燃油使用配合國際海事組織IMO推動船舶減碳措施以依船舶法公告採用國際公約相關的能源使用效率及減碳規範督導國際航線船舶符合國際規定令為整體規劃海運淨零碳排推動策略預計在今年辦理我國"},{"start":2994.042,"end":3010.415,"text":"我國內水載客船舶電動化推動發展計畫委託的專業服務並完成海運低碳化的整體藍圖規劃及推動方案等研究在因應國際航線船舶使用替代燃油發展並配合我國的能營工業鏈"},{"start":3012.076,"end":3039.933,"text":"臺灣港務公司將於國際商港未來發展及建設計畫滾動檢討納入國際商港提供使用替代性燃料加注的服務工作在打造綠色港戶落實海港檢探措施港公司的臺灣港群已全數取得歐洲生態港的認證臺灣港務公司將持續辦理生態港的負評認證配合環境部臺灣岸電事辦計畫我們在去年已經完成高雄港"},{"start":3041.894,"end":3055.185,"text":"44號霍倫碼頭一座,並將在今年至明年陸續新增建置5座的岸電設施,令客鎮設置智慧能源的管理,長期規劃創儲能設備持續推動港口低碳再生能源的發展。"},{"start":3060.809,"end":3070.434,"text":"最後在環境部於去年的12月30號公告2030年國家制定的貢獻減碳新目標較2005年基準年減量28加減兩個百分點賴總統並將召開氣候變遷對策委員會"},{"start":3080.379,"end":3095.675,"text":"的委員會議宣布我國2032及2035年的減碳目標為了落實前開的減碳目標交通部將持續就運氣電動化及無碳化淨零利生活低碳運輸網路及海空運"},{"start":3096.536,"end":3113.418,"text":"減碳等領域結合相關的運輸業者共同努力以精進作為此外本部配合環境部在去年11月成立已經成立永續長聯盟設置本部永續長一職後續將配合環境部規劃在今年期"},{"start":3114.637,"end":3128.704,"text":"辦理擴大國內探盤查對象等相關工作積極協助海空運海空陸海空運輸業者朝淨零永續目標邁進以上報告敬請各位委員你是先生執政"},{"start":3130.166,"end":3142.291,"text":"好 謝謝張司長的報告那我們接下來還有四個單位的報告那我們就是請就是大約每個單位五分鐘的報告時間那我們接下來請國發會經濟發展處邱秀穎處長報告"},{"start":3153.719,"end":3169.638,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好今天承蒙貴委會邀請本會列席就陸海空交通運輸業因應近年排放轉型的改善措施進行報告以下僅就本會業務相關部分提出說明敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":3171.69,"end":3191.778,"text":"國際能源總署報告指出隨著疫後經濟活動的復甦全球運輸部門碳排持續成長運輸部門減碳可說是實踐淨零排放的關鍵因此本會協同環境部經濟部交通部等相關部會在2022年3月公布台灣2050淨零排放路徑及策略總說明並提出淨零12項關鍵戰略"},{"start":3197.64,"end":3213.997,"text":"其中針對運輸部門研提具體減碳的推動措施是體現在運具電動化及無碳化戰略及淨零率生活的關鍵戰略中首先在推動運具電動化及無碳化方面是藉由提高運具"},{"start":3215.619,"end":3243.279,"text":"電動運具數量完善使用環境配套產業技術升級轉型等三大策略打造友善電動車輛使用環境促進電動車輛普及同時政府帶頭示範公務車電動化輔導國產電動小客車推升動力等帶動運輸部門檢探截至去年11月電動大客車普及率以及電動小客車的市售比都高於原地目標"},{"start":3244.54,"end":3266.577,"text":"其次在推動淨零率生活方面是透過改變民眾行為養成低碳運輸運具的習慣並完善低碳運輸網絡等方向進行其中持續辦理行政院的通勤月票並協助地方政府整合納入多項公共運具以及評估擴大的既有服務那從去年"},{"start":3269.239,"end":3289.928,"text":"從2023年推出以來目前已經有20個縣市配合推出截至去年底累積有將近1200萬人次加值購買並累積約9億人次使用那在未來的推動做法上行政團隊會持續推動陸海空運朝近年轉型並加速運輸部門的減碳"},{"start":3291.829,"end":3318.707,"text":"在賴總統上任以來提出國家希望工程展開綠色成長與2050淨零轉型五大策略由環境部等部會合力推動行速淨零永續的綠生活方案包括五大支持的重點其中很重要的一個重點就是針對低碳運輸網絡這個是由交通部主責會扣合運具電動化及無碳化的策略推廣公共運輸來完備"},{"start":3320.468,"end":3341.546,"text":"而且也完備步行跟自行車的環境加大落實減碳另外在空運方面國際民航組織已經指出SAF是國際航空業最重要的減碳措施之一交通部已經規劃在今年推動試行的計畫希望藉由使用端來鼓勵國際航空添加來加速航空業的進行轉型"},{"start":3342.907,"end":3361.038,"text":"另外在海運方面,隨著國際海事組織加嚴加大減排要求,交通部將積極掌握國際海事公約及相關國際的趨勢,適時規劃辦理政策推動規劃跟國際公約的國內法制化作業,來確保我國的管理做法跟國際同步。"},{"start":3362.369,"end":3371.073,"text":"另外在政策支持工具方面行政團隊也會持續因應運輸不滿的國際趨勢來加強檢視淨零相關計畫執行進度滾動調整淨零的對策來確保國家淨零永續目標的達成同時為了協調整合國家因應親歐變遷的相關政策與"},{"start":3382.958,"end":3412.307,"text":"跨部會事務行政院永續會已經設置氣候變遷與淨零轉型專案小組是由副院長直接督導專案業務行政院政務委員來主持跨部會的協調的工作會議那環境部是擔任幕僚那國發會是擔任永續會的秘書處未來將與相關部會共同來積極推動淨零轉型的工作那希望能夠持續精進的相關的行動措施來加速我國的淨零轉型以上報告"},{"start":3413.578,"end":3436.85,"text":"好謝謝邱處長的報告接下來邀請環境部氣候變遷署黃偉民副署長報告主席各位委員大家好"},{"start":3438.206,"end":3455.519,"text":"本部承蒙貴會邀請就陸海空交通運輸業因應近鄰排放轉型之改善措施請就本部負責的業務跟向各位委員報告首先在我國因應氣候變遷的制度裡面我們在為了與國際接軌同時兼顧永續發展需求"},{"start":3459.542,"end":3468.785,"text":"適應全球氣候變遷衝擊並建構韌性體系我們修正了原本的溫室氣體減量級管理法為氣候變遷因應法該法在112年的2月15日公佈施行並將2050淨零排放的長期目標納入法規規範"},{"start":3478.854,"end":3495.372,"text":"那在這樣的一個目標下為了確立各部會的權責分工氣候法的第八條規範各部會推動溫室氣體減量氣候變遷條式的主則機關那同時依據氣候變遷因應法第十條規定明定五年為一期"},{"start":3496.616,"end":3521.144,"text":"的階段管制目標分別由能源製造住商運輸農業及環境等六大部門共同承擔其中運輸部門是由交通部來負責主政那另外依照氣候法的9到11條的規定各部門組織機關會來訂定國家因應氣候變遷的行動綱領階段管制目標各部門的行動方案"},{"start":3523.134,"end":3541.161,"text":"在強化這個部門的減量目標的作為上面根據國家溫室氣體排放清澈的報告2024年的版本我國111年的溫室氣體總排放量大概是2億8500萬噸二氧化碳當量扣除碳匯的2100"},{"start":3545.367,"end":3554.358,"text":"萬噸以後呢大概進排放量是兩億六千多萬噸那在這樣的一個排放結構裡面大概以製造部門最高大概是51.37%住商19.87%運輸部門是12.67%"},{"start":3561.687,"end":3582.305,"text":"那為了落實這個第二階段的管制目標也就是在110年到114年的目標我們已經有行政院已經在110年9月29號核定第二期的階段管制目標明定國家整體的溫室氣排放量在114年的時候要相較於基準年減10%"},{"start":3585.114,"end":3609.415,"text":"為了強化這個各部門的減量責任的管控我們依照氣候變遷因應法規定就是各部門的主責部會要在每年的9月30日將成果呈報本部會診以後依法來報行政院核地後公開那目前其實交通部已經有推動以發展公共運輸系統加強運輸需求管理建構綠色運輸網絡推動低碳運具使用"},{"start":3612.498,"end":3619.693,"text":"建置運具之交通環境及提升運輸系統及運具能源使用效率等三大策略及十一項措施來積極推動"},{"start":3625.253,"end":3651.263,"text":"那為了擬定第三期階段管制目標也就是115年到119年的國家整體跟各部門的減量目標本部委也依照氣候法的第十條規定在113年1月24日成立了學者專家的技術諮詢小組重新檢視各部會可能的減量空間跟減量技術那此外也依照氣候法的第八條規定依照"},{"start":3652.803,"end":3667.209,"text":"強化這個跨部會的整合由行政院國家永續發展委會向下的氣候變遷與淨寧專案小組來進行跨部會的協調機制跟相關的整合工作"},{"start":3668.223,"end":3697.154,"text":"那本部呢在113年12月30號已經初步已經公佈了我們第三期階段溫室氣體減氮管制目標的一個草案也就是希望在119年的溫室氣排放減量目標由原來的國家自主減量貢獻24相對基準年24加減1的提升成28加減2的情況同時啊設定這個電力排放系數是0.319每度二氧化碳當量"},{"start":3698.214,"end":3726.873,"text":"那對於這個運輸部門的部分我們也初步提出了就是希望能夠相較基準年減量20%的這樣的一個規劃那相關的這個減量目標跟減量措施本部已經訂在今年2月7號要召開法定的公聽會來徵詢各界的意見那以後續來擬定具體的減量目標跟措施送行政院核定以上報告敬請指教"},{"start":3728.001,"end":3734.568,"text":"好謝謝黃副署長報告那接下來邀請經濟部能源署吳志偉副署長報告"},{"start":3744.759,"end":3759.895,"text":"召委 各位委員 女士先進 大家好承蒙貴遠會邀請本部就陸海空交通運輸業因應淨林排放轉型之改善措施進行報告 敬請各位委員先進不吝賜教在淨林的轉球"},{"start":3762.638,"end":3777.921,"text":"轉型的全球趨勢下淨零減碳已成為各部門施政的重要議題那交通部也因應這個淨零轉型提出交通部門運氣電動化及無碳化的關鍵戰略以下就經濟部協助陸上航空"},{"start":3778.522,"end":3792.461,"text":"及海上交通運輸之淨零排放轉型做法說明如下在陸上運輸部分交通部已設定119年市區公車及公務車全面電動化經濟部會確保用電安全已於用戶用電設備裝置規則訂定有"},{"start":3795.903,"end":3812.329,"text":"電動車量充電系統相關配電安全規範也完成充電設施之國家標準並納入電動車充電設備資源性產品的驗證以完善安全規範配合交通部政策針對這個夜館的場域的國營事業還有"},{"start":3816.73,"end":3832.767,"text":"商業設施還有會展中心水利設施這些景點還有產業園區跟科技園區的這個場域來設置充電設施並持續滾動檢討另外在電動車的推動政策方面那個就電動巴士的部分"},{"start":3833.368,"end":3857.98,"text":"進一步以輔導華德動能成雲汽車創意能源紅華先進4款車款符合10項國產化要求衍生累計促成業者在台投資285億元設置整車廠還有車用電池廠另外在淨零管型過程當中也協助國內產業發展在電動汽車部分透過展創平台以規劃"},{"start":3859.38,"end":3868.687,"text":"推動由馮華等車廠在地生產智慧電動車並協助關鍵零組件進入供應鏈預期113年這個訂單大概會有1萬輛並陸續交車當中另外在電動物流車的部分也透過產創平台推動中華汽車威剛科技這兩家業者"},{"start":3880.134,"end":3896.116,"text":"申請這個主動式的研發計畫預計將投入88輛這個電動物流車在物流場域進行示範主要應用在一般的物流配送大賣場配送還有農會這個集收集配送還有一些共享自行車這些調度"},{"start":3897.338,"end":3912.256,"text":"另外在電動機車的部分經濟部從98年就直接提供民眾購車補助那目前累積已經有75萬輛那同時也推動業者打造環島的這個基礎能源補充設施來補充設置電動機車充電站有6600站"},{"start":3916.761,"end":3929.928,"text":"那為推動這個業者持續拓展這個站點我們經濟部也持續以差異化的補助方式比如說這個非六都的這個補助會提高引導業者均衡的設置各地區的電動車的這個充電"},{"start":3934.191,"end":3948.611,"text":"另外在氫能車的部分那交通部定有這個氫燃料電池搭客車示範運行計畫那經濟部在前年112年11月也發布了加氫站銷售氫燃料經營許可辦法"},{"start":3949.011,"end":3962.985,"text":"那那個中油公司也預定在應該是今年會在高雄市完成首座的嘉興站那另外在航空運輸的部分那使用永續航空來由就是SAF是航空產業這個減碳"},{"start":3964.846,"end":3992.921,"text":"排放的重要措施那經濟部為了要配合這個交通部的政策也訂定有這個國家標準並採取這個短期又進口長期是評估自產的方式來供應那配合這個交通部114年的這個永續航空燃油計畫中油公司他也會規劃進口永續航空燃油並從115年來申請生產永續航空燃油另外在海上運輸的部分因為目前海運的替代燃料還很多"},{"start":3993.621,"end":4007.657,"text":"那包括低流的這個海雲運營青柴油還有低流燃料油那還有包括液化的天然氣跟甲醇那同時也有零碳的像綠色甲醇、綠青、綠胺這些但是這些都是處於評估的階段"},{"start":4008.638,"end":4033.352,"text":"那經濟部將未來會配合交通部的低碳燃料相關政策來推動相關的供應規劃那因應整個淨零轉型有關推動陸海空這個交通運進的無碳化政策經濟部將配合交通部的政策持續來進行規劃並協助提供所需的低碳燃料那以上報告禁止任並請並助各位委員身體健康萬事不宜謝謝好謝謝吳副署長的報告"},{"start":4035.575,"end":4036.456,"text":"接下來邀請國科會陳曉林副處長報告"},{"start":4053.584,"end":4078.156,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好今天承蒙貴委員會邀請由國會就陸海空交通運輸業因應淨零排放轉型制改善措施進行報告敬請委員會與指導依據國際民航組織2024年10月統計已有47個國家對於永續航空燃油簡稱SAF已形成相關的方案2024年較2023年增加40%顯示全球使用SAF意識高漲"},{"start":4082.598,"end":4110.438,"text":"參考國內航空公司永續報告資料並考量煉油廠的產量之經濟規模效益若添加10%的SAF則預估2030年國內SAF需求量為30萬公筆因此研發SAF自主產製能力及示範專區運行整合航運相關產業石化產業聚落等產業資源兼顧具量體規模穩定料源之供應環境及加速國內"},{"start":4111.838,"end":4138.676,"text":"技術國際驗證將有助於能源自主韌性及協助石化低碳轉型針對SARF國科會已有相關研究包括全流動連續式綠色製程以航空燃油生產為例開發多種可串聯的創新反應器並採用先進的感測自動控制反饋機制及機器學習技術以提高生產過程的效率及產品品質"},{"start":4140.356,"end":4160.684,"text":"另外對於轉化二氧化碳為SARF料源之創新或營造量產技術研究成果將可以促進循環經濟模式朝著實際應用於生產SARF料源的目標前進此外在綠運輸及生殖能的研究投入方面淨零科技方案中低減碳領域"},{"start":4161.804,"end":4189.457,"text":"目前已投入电动载具电池技术研发以及相关零组件的自主化并且研发智慧充放电管理系统以及生殖能相关研究有关于SARF科研技术发展的应用可协助本国籍航空业者面对国际航空业检探强制性措施有机会带动新兴产业发展加上全球生殖燃料广泛应用于"},{"start":4190.057,"end":4202.003,"text":"交通運輸進而替代化石燃料其中近年來國際兼用於航空業的減碳法案推進及擴大SELF供應鏈市場需求等推進為最快以應應國際近民減碳的趨勢及要求"},{"start":4206.075,"end":4222.189,"text":"面對此轉型契機,臺灣具備技術研發能量,透過跨部會整合推動,建議短期可針對SAF原料進行佈局,確保原料供應的穩定性,並且建立SAF生產的產業聚落及示範專區,"},{"start":4224.171,"end":4239.182,"text":"先進技術的示範基地中長期則吸引國際班機來台添加SOFT發展為亞太地區SOFT產製轉運中心建構新生質燃料產業及國際輸出或供應能力"},{"start":4241.707,"end":4270.646,"text":"為了推動2030年前達產業化的規模技術國科會的淨零科技方案的推動小組已經規劃了關聯部會的分工以及推動策略預計透過115年的科技預算推動SELF次世代料源科技的研發以及促進產業生態系統的建立以上報告懇請委員支持並且祝各位委員平安健康謝謝"},{"start":4271.769,"end":4272.151,"text":"好,謝謝陳副處長的報告"},{"start":4279.318,"end":4305.864,"text":"现在进行询答先宣告以下事项询答时间出席委员6加2分钟列席委员4加1分钟委员发言登记于10点30分截止各委员如有临时提案请于10点30分前提出以便医事人员会诊暂定10点30分休息10分钟中午原则上不休息现在请登记第一位林沛翔委员发言"},{"start":4315.305,"end":4339.347,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請陳次長跟港務公司李董事長請陳次長還有李董事長委員好 次長在你們這份交通部的報告第7頁的時候有提到2025年到2026年高雄港會增加5座暗電設施那我想請問基隆港呢"},{"start":4340.353,"end":4358.749,"text":"有關岸邊設施基隆港是不是有準備基隆港也會有一座基隆港也會有一座什麼時候會建好呢我們大概100對114年到100年會陸續要興建五座然後包含這裡頭包含了游泳碼頭的兩座其中有一座就是在基隆港那另外在高雄港"},{"start":4360.21,"end":4384.904,"text":"請繼續在報告的時候請跟我說明什麼時候這些岸電設施會做好而且另外一方面我有聽到基隆港的高層有跟我講過說基隆港未來會成為LNG剛剛我們經濟部有講過液態天然氣來補充船舶的設施這句話是不是真的如果是真的本席可不可以認為這就是台灣港務公司側面認同四階在基隆的表態"},{"start":4387.904,"end":4390.028,"text":"LNG不管是LNG的這個液態天然氣的發電廠還是LNG的船舶補給中心是嗎"},{"start":4399.68,"end":4423.215,"text":"這個第一個跟委員報告就是我們從114到115年我們的建制就是暗電高壓暗電所以沒有電暗器這個事情目前暗電的第二個部分就是因為台電在做這一方面的話我們把我們相關的有些疑慮就包括就是一些航安的問題啊比如說港口"},{"start":4424.655,"end":4451.726,"text":"港口方面航運的規定還有一些氣候變遷的可能要還有靜穩度這一些我們要提出來他們一定要納入這個環評裡面市長跟董事長請注意說請注意有關未來有關基隆港尤其是市街方面的任何訊息上面的分享因為這一個議題不但是現在是一個我們經濟上重要議題也是在政治上面大家非常關注的議題請這一點請市長跟董事長特別要注意"},{"start":4451.986,"end":4473.417,"text":"是是我們必要時候提供委員相關資訊好那請問一下我們我在看這份報告這四份報告的時候裡面講了很多有關SAF也就是有關謝謝董事長有關SAF也是有關這個空這個航空用的這個永續燃料那有在第二頁經濟部的報告裡面跟第三頁第三頁這個國科會"},{"start":4476.719,"end":4495.2,"text":"國家科學技術委員會裡面的報告都提到說要製造所謂的永續塘空替代燃料那我想請問如何製造因為我目前我上次那個美國AIT農業協會來台灣開會那我有特地有聽他們整個報告他們的報告主要講說目前的這些所謂的"},{"start":4495.9,"end":4510.354,"text":"這個航空替代永續燃料主要是透過這個食物也就是玉米跟小麥的殘渣物去做成的那我們台灣目前沒有這麼大量的食物這個食物殘渣去做供應的時候那請問我們是不是全部都要向美國生向美國購買"},{"start":4513.368,"end":4530.429,"text":"我想跟委員報告現在我們跟中油台塑這邊的接洽還有包含國際上大部分都是用廢石用油所以初步來講國內如果要自產的話也是會用廢石油油那至於剛剛委員所提到的那個也是一個生產的方式"},{"start":4530.889,"end":4547.992,"text":"不過他要通通通通要通過國際上ICL COSIA的認證好 謝謝因為在第三頁裡面已經有講到有兩道說有關這個你們已經開發出來相關的科技正在國科會在做相關研究那請問這個相關研究什麼時候可以operationalize也就是可以實質上執行化"},{"start":4550.393,"end":4574.581,"text":"這三頁第三頁你們自己寫的喔國客會的話麻煩是不是請國客會來做說明一下有關全流動連續式綠色製程跟轉化二氧化碳為永續航空燃料的創新混凝藻量產技術什麼時候可以實施上實施開始使用是跟委員報告國客會相關的研究希望"},{"start":4576.066,"end":4597.083,"text":"從基礎研究到應用的部分那我們希望在115年的時候能夠有一個示範的基地來落實這些技術的應用所以說我們要等到所謂的永續航空替代燃料真正能夠在台灣可以自給自足的時候請問什麼時候我們看到這個事情台灣製造的自給自足的因為這是你們上面寫的東西"},{"start":4598.597,"end":4622.653,"text":"因為除了技術之外相關的法規跟產業界的鏈接這部分都還需要配到的應用所以現在經濟部他也在規劃一個整體性的這個方案所以希望能夠在115年能夠啟動這樣的一個基礎115年就是明年囉明年大概什麼時候第一季第二季第三季第四季現在這個正在規劃當中"},{"start":4624.37,"end":4645.226,"text":"我希望有個確切的時程要出來而且第二點來講的話這方面來講其實知識體大這不但要務實而且我希望能加速在考慮安全速度跟方便性的前提之下我希望這方面的所謂航空有序燃料的自給自足可以務實的去做推動"},{"start":4646.889,"end":4672.277,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下有關這個永續航空燃油我們大概分三個階段來實施那當然就是剛才委員特別提到還要配合這個薩普燃油的國內的製廠所以原則上分三個階段第一個階段大概就是今年開始會有少量的一個試辦那少量的試辦也是剛才委員特別提到我們也是用應該是台塑跟中油"},{"start":4672.757,"end":4700.08,"text":"大概會用國內的這個廢食用油來製成經過剛才講COCIA的認證以後來提供國內少量的一個今年開始試辦然後到了2030年的時候我們希望能夠添加5%但是到了2030年要有這樣的就是剛才委員特別提到不管是國科會或經濟部相關的那個SARB的產能要能夠起來所以到時候我們會滾動的務實的來推動這樣的一個政策 以上"},{"start":4700.6,"end":4718.128,"text":"好我看這份報告裡面其實提了很多直接提到有關電動車目前電動車所謂的這個低碳運具的推動策略可能是目前我們我們國家現在走的方向對於2025年能夠做到淨零排碳這件事情本席是在是表示贊成的畢竟來講這是全球的趨勢"},{"start":4719.048,"end":4735.66,"text":"但是有另外一個方向我想請我們交通部好好考慮一下也就是所謂與其說一天到晚只是講低運碳聚用電能倒不如說我們現在的運劇上面其實到目前為止還是很多使用汽油而使用汽油如果我記得沒錯的話一部車從"},{"start":4738.122,"end":4765.896,"text":"買車到最後面車子結束差不多16年到18年以我們2015年開始算起來的話可能要完全排除用汽油的交通運具可能到2070年因此在這個不改變既有車輛技術有效減少使用中汽車的談判量的話其實我本席在這邊會建議說是不是能夠考慮所謂的酒精混合汽油燃料也就是所謂的e-fuel的存在"},{"start":4766.596,"end":4782.436,"text":"因為這一點來講的話如果以美國為例我們台灣很多地方都是看歐美看世界的趨勢來去做我們國家政策的推動以美國為例他們環境部在2013年已經核准E15也就是所謂汽油中混合10%到15%的乙醇"},{"start":4784.378,"end":4811.921,"text":"這是可以適用在所有2001年之後的輕型傳統燃料車輛而衣食則是可以使用就是汽油中混合10%的乙醇則可適用在2001年以前的乘用車機車等等現在美國的加油站提供的汽油幾乎都是所謂的衣食而歐盟的燃油品質指令於2011年起許可汽油內含10%的乙醇"},{"start":4812.421,"end":4823.554,"text":"那2022年歐盟兩國的銷售汽油中也談了差不多講40%都是E10而且有逐漸取代E5也就是汽油中混合5%乙醇的趨勢英國現在從"},{"start":4828.119,"end":4849.414,"text":"從4年前9月1號2021年9月1號起已改用10%也就E10作為標準的汽油來減少溫室替氣排放但是台灣到目前只有提供E3加油也就是只有3%那請問部長是不是要參考OECD跟所有先進國家的做法將E3提高到E10讓更多加油站來加入計畫呢"},{"start":4852.155,"end":4880.353,"text":"剛剛委員特別提到像現在加E3因為E3現行的使用是少量在使用那少量使用的時候因為也有這個應該是車主有相關的一個反應油品的相關的問題他有相關反應所以目前還是在這個少量在使用中但是這樣的一個趨勢如何讓現行的汽油車能夠在這個在這個2050年之前他還是對減碳有貢獻所以你剛剛特別提到"},{"start":4881.394,"end":4896.779,"text":"一個導入而這一部分呢我們跟就是就是我們跟經濟部呢正在討論中前幾天我先是去做完美國AIT的邀請我甚至去到那個桃園吧去成都他們YAMAHA做的E100"},{"start":4897.839,"end":4925.569,"text":"也就是100%放乙醇在裡面而如果使用1100燃料乙醇最多能減少71%的碳排量這個其實比電動車減碳的成果更為優秀那是不是可以認真考慮說我們既然全世界現在目前已經有成熟的科技如果我們還在故步自封不去往前推進的話其實我們要好好地去解決我們要好好地去達到2050淨零排碳的目標"},{"start":4926.169,"end":4943.844,"text":"是委員這個意見我們會跟經濟部共同來研究看如何來推這個這是整個也可以講說是整個行政院有在考慮的一個政策方向我一直認為說我們不能用過去的經驗來解決現在的問題你不能用製造問題的方法來解決問題"},{"start":4944.665,"end":4973.524,"text":"那未來如果說我們現在已經看到其他先進國家我們自詡是個先進民主國家我們自詡是個先進的科技國家那目前有這些科技的手而且是成熟而且已經有成功的先例的手那我們不去採用其實某個程度上我們是在故步自封所以我建請我們交通部認真考慮是不是針對這些案子能夠提出計畫跟具體時程讓淨零排碳這件事情不是只是口號而已是 我們會會同經濟部把這樣的一個案子給提出來好 謝謝 謝謝次長"},{"start":4975.246,"end":4997.444,"text":"好 謝謝林沛翔委員接下來邀請許智傑委員發言謝謝主席 我們請次長跟民航局長請陳次長還有何局長"},{"start":5003.306,"end":5031.219,"text":"委員好謝謝市長跟局長其實高雄機場我們這一陣子增加了很多的航班航線謝謝民航局其實都很大力的幫忙那這一陣子其實我還做了很多的首航我還去日本岡山做首航回高雄還從高雄做首航到越南復國島"},{"start":5032.896,"end":5052.836,"text":"那本來泰國清邁首航正好六月份行程衝到我很想去所以沒有做到下個月我還會做高雄到熊本的首航到熊本去所以其實這一陣子當然民航局幫我們很多的忙我們先表示感謝那當然就是"},{"start":5054.246,"end":5077.376,"text":"我高雄的需求越來越多那當然需要再加強的就會越多所以我也經常跟局長煩不過就是說這個都是為了高雄好那為了我們的機場可以更順暢所以就會再要求的更多所以也麻煩次長跟局長"},{"start":5078.456,"end":5106.252,"text":"就這個部分其實今天我還會要求高雄機場有機會公司化的事所以這個也麻煩部長今天沒來幫我也跟部長轉達一下這個其實非常的重要我們先看這個停機過夜空間的問題我不懂因為就是目前我比較仔細的去查就是我們停車位有48席"},{"start":5108.663,"end":5125.448,"text":"那現在可以停的有36席那現在有在停的有26然後呢你再想一想就是後來我們航廈要再蓋那將來航廈202731席203239變成41跟47席比現在的48席還少"},{"start":5137.421,"end":5157.296,"text":"那我一直在想說我們其實我也跟局長要求跟拜託就是我們要想很遠這16年的施工期太長那我在中間到底有哪一些可以改變哪一些可以去加強的所以就這個停車空間坦白講"},{"start":5158.53,"end":5186.261,"text":"我們明天會再去看明天會再去看遠東那兩架停了很久的飛機一直都沒有移走遠東已經就沒有了就已經關掉了關掉了他的飛機還停在我們的停機坪這不是很慘嗎那桃園機場公司已經把它移走了我們高雄我本來還以為停一架結果還停了兩架"},{"start":5188.482,"end":5199.067,"text":"所以像這個停車空間是不是請局長跟我們解惑一下到底是怎麼樣才會有更大的停車空間"},{"start":5201.429,"end":5221.554,"text":"謝謝委員的敦促我想在那個機瓶的部分我們高雄機場有48個機瓶那基本上就像委員所講的過去來講它會有12個席位它是認為說這12個機瓶不能用那在這一段時間我們重新盤整就是說這12個席位裡面有兩個大的機瓶是供遠東用"},{"start":5224.835,"end":5240.785,"text":"那這兩個大的我們會去做調整可能我們在短期內我們就會把它做調整把這兩個大機坪可能把這個遠東的飛機拉開會把它做成四個小機坪兩大變成四小什麼時候有機會完成我們會盡快來處理"},{"start":5242.766,"end":5258.605,"text":"就是說我們現在確定了我們就會來做這個動作把它拉開然後把機坪做這樣就可以增加4個電車空間對 增加 至少增加2個對 2個就給遠東那剛剛講了12個裡面有2個大機坪是這樣那另外有一席是供EMS用的"},{"start":5259.285,"end":5279.854,"text":"就是那個緊急醫療後送的專機用那另外有一席這個停車位是機位它是因為有損壞一席兩席還好我看到的是差十席那剩下的八席就是我們檢討以後它可能是一些動線其實它是可以彈性調整使用"},{"start":5280.534,"end":5292.323,"text":"是的所以這樣講起來其實原本的48席真正不能用的大概是4席那裡面有8席是可以依時段或者是運用情形彈性調整所以整個來講應該是我們檢討以後會有44席是可以運用"},{"start":5296.305,"end":5316.053,"text":"然後至於在施工期間這邊有提到因為施工期間因為它是滑行道要北移所以有一些機坪這個登機樑梯的作業所以會有巴西會被影響那可是因為我們剛剛講我們有一些偵檢然後另外這個消防西側消防班西側的部分我們也會在短期內時間有限謝謝局長就是說我剛聽到可以辨識的是洗"},{"start":5321.115,"end":5345.735,"text":"我就心裡充滿了喜悅以前沒有去要求大家都沒有都忽視了這些問題那今天我們正式的要求那局長也已經有預作準備也打算就說我們有可能先變成試洗除了緊急 除了其他的特殊用途之外那遠東也會盡快把它移走所以"},{"start":5346.974,"end":5371.151,"text":"我覺得這對小港機場高雄機場是好事所以這個就要特別感謝局長盡快完成好不好因為其實我這一陣子拜訪了十幾家的航空公司誰跟我反應我就不講但是也有航空公司跟我反應就是他要停機的空間但是沒有所以他就進不到高雄了"},{"start":5372.697,"end":5397.228,"text":"所以這在在都會影響到高雄的經營的問題所以我想提供局長跟市長一個概念就是我們高雄演唱會經濟我們高雄現在這麼多的科技大廠到高雄來為什麼你知道嗎因為我們的市長其實秦邁市長有跟我提過我們就是很有生意的去邀請人來你要什麼來我盡量跟你配合"},{"start":5399.283,"end":5416.74,"text":"你有什麼需求,我盡量來幫你設想今天如果是一個公司,他要來A城市我們高雄市,我們是這種態度要去B城市,我就說無關心境啊我也不一定,你要來,你要來照頂數啊這樣那個心態,你要想他會去對他"},{"start":5423.12,"end":5451.001,"text":"所以其實我們高雄這一陣子進步這麼大就是也謝謝我們齊邁市長事實上我們就是用這個態度在迎接科技大廠在迎接演唱會城市演唱會主辦單位所以這樣子我們才會跑這麼快那相對的就是香港機場高雄機場我希望態度決定高度"},{"start":5452.867,"end":5476.477,"text":"格局決定結局我覺得小港機場、高雄機場會不一樣還有很大的成長的空間我們看第二頁你可以看到桃園機場它的網站裡面這個字太小了什麼客運量、客貨量那包括那個CO2那個包括節能減碳"},{"start":5478.264,"end":5504.975,"text":"這些都已經在思考了有很多都已經在思考了我不知道我們高雄機場這些問題有都思考了嗎那有一個簡單的概念就是說當時在考慮桃園機場公司化的時候我想其實也有考慮到高雄機場公司化我知道這件事情不是很好做但是我認為這是一個好的方向"},{"start":5506.791,"end":5535.307,"text":"高雄機場其實你現在比較機場公司化之後第一,員工的薪水會提高這個就是對員工來講也是有一個利己的好處啦第二個我剛才看那個監管分離港務公司跟航港局其實以前就是一個單位嘛沒有分開嘛其實我上個禮拜去參加港務公司一個物流公司的一個上樑的典禮"},{"start":5536.479,"end":5564.476,"text":"我聽到港務公司說我們港務公司集團我聽起來很有大氣很有魄力港務公司集團其實你看台北港、隔壁港、台中港、九龍港這真的很公司化之後業務的壓力公司的活力"},{"start":5566.613,"end":5593.175,"text":"坦白講真的有進步所以我就一直在思考高雄機場有沒有機會公司化那包括你法治人士業務財務等等這個其實104年的時候桃園機場公司他們有做過可行性評估那我也跟局長反應過很多次就是說我高雄希望有接駁機"},{"start":5595.134,"end":5623.057,"text":"我們高雄人如果要來投降基座,回去出國40年,有沒有方便?我們要多行李,大卡小卡我們要坐騎乘車,沒有就坐捷運去高鐵站高鐵站再坐到投降,投降再坐捷運,沒有再坐騎乘車多大包小包的行李,半山多而已,來到投降所以如果有機會有接駁機的話"},{"start":5625.484,"end":5646.916,"text":"事實上我們就在高雄機場就登機可以省時間,可以省行李,這樣半山過年我覺得這個如果高雄機場有用心去思考我認為不是不可能做得到如果說,反正就隨時臨,有沒有都沒關係這樣就都沒有了"},{"start":5650.749,"end":5675.006,"text":"所以其實這陣子我再強調一次我很感謝民航局坦白講局長經常被我煩東煩西啦也解決了不少的問題我們也先表示感謝啦因為他們說有幫我們做我們要先感謝這樣大家做比較開心啦但是這個不一樣的翻轉我想這是一個"},{"start":5676.647,"end":5691.453,"text":"很重大的思考所以我今天也很正式的提出來就是說高雄機場公司化的問題我希望交通部跟民航局可以慎重的思考甚至其他的"},{"start":5692.678,"end":5707.636,"text":"類似港務公司跟航港局現在其實穩妥得很好監管分離 政企分離其實這是一個未來的走向所以希望說民航局可以正式地做一下思考 好不好"},{"start":5710.27,"end":5727.331,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我們在研議因為陶基成立的時候我也在交通部然後當初有他成立的背景然後港公司成立的方式也不一樣那他大概就是屬性不同不過我想這個都是一個可以評估的議題我知道我們今天是與眾心長還是非常慎重"},{"start":5730.054,"end":5750.179,"text":"希望說我們高雄機場可以增加很多很多很好的很大的效率所以我長期在看我們高雄機場的所有的航班所有的機場的改變的發展所以我希望說民航局也能夠跟我用一樣的心境看12年以後"},{"start":5752.706,"end":5766.66,"text":"我這12年一來,我新的行業發展好但是我中間還是不斷的在成長我想這是最重要的,不能說沒有等了,我們12年等了就歐裕去了所以這個部分我希望高雄機場戰戰兢兢"},{"start":5769.312,"end":5782.037,"text":"我們看杜叔在背杜推 要很小心 要戰戰兢兢但是我們最後要看到 我們有信心 把它做好這樣好不好好 謝謝委員 我們會認真來處理好 謝謝次長 謝謝局長 謝謝好 謝謝許智傑委員好 接下來邀請林國成委員發言"},{"start":5804.192,"end":5829.191,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那請陳政次請陳次長好 政次 因為我在想 因為今天題目啊當然是很大啦 也不是只有單項可是任何的節能減碳任何的淨零排放"},{"start":5830.834,"end":5858.026,"text":"我們當然在立法院不是官員要來負責我想我們立法院當然也持有這些支持的態度那基本上我們特別要去強調的就是不要官員一味的你們做你們的立法院做我們的基本上這是沒有辦法去引導共鳴的"},{"start":5859.306,"end":5881.897,"text":"因為未來的趨勢是世界趨勢任何人都沒有辦法去排斥的所以身為立法院任何一個人也有責任去了解這些跟幫忙如何去做到節能減碳以及淨零的一個標準"},{"start":5883.118,"end":5904.103,"text":"所以在這裡我特別要提醒就針對輕能車的部分那輕能車也是一種那雖然不是大範圍但是輕能車這個部分我必須要提醒我們交通部不要又像過去裡面自駕車的後塵"},{"start":5908.07,"end":5931.106,"text":"這個就代表什麼 我要提醒我們交通部不要龍頭蛇尾的政策看到老娘就開槍 一定要有規劃 一定要有計劃還有一定立法院要全力支援你去做預算這個做起來 才會天衣無縫 完整無缺啊"},{"start":5931.866,"end":5954.271,"text":"不是嗎 是你同意吧 同意那我剛才已經講了我現在要談的我感覺到很奇怪為什麼我們給你調資料我們很用心給你調資料如何來配合那請問我調資料調一次資料寫得很詳細"},{"start":5955.931,"end":5967.808,"text":"可是第二次你們又要來抽範抽範說立法委員只知道表皮層不需要注意大細節請問"},{"start":5971.294,"end":5989.655,"text":"正是這到底是誰下的令立法委員不能了解更清楚的政策來做配合動作來幫忙你們預算爭取請問一下正是山陽下令的是陳部長或者陳次長或者林司長到底是誰"},{"start":5993.267,"end":6009.51,"text":"這邊我跟委員這個報告一下委員講的一個部分的話大概就是說昨天提供給委員的一個說明資料啦那這個就是說我有跟同行講就是說有相關資料的話先讓我看過之後就趕快提供給委員是來那個"},{"start":6010.231,"end":6018.775,"text":"那後來這個回來同仁有跟我講說已經有提供給委員這樣子的一個不是啦 次郎那問題就出來了就是你下令的喔第一次的資料寫了跟國花會跟經濟部裡面怎麼規劃怎麼樣去做很詳細啊我們一看就一目了然這是政策啊那當然在這個審預算啦或者知識部分當然我們要潛力"},{"start":6039.884,"end":6053.884,"text":"你第二個公文給我湊換掉是寫這些表皮塵來 正直 你看你寫那個我要怎麼記起來所以我後面還有很多人在等快點 好不好"},{"start":6055.174,"end":6076.674,"text":"是誰下令的我要了解的是這些昨天有請同仁修改的部分就是說修改第一段不是說要讓委員充分理解就是說推清門有三大要素第一個一定要有加薪站那第二個部分好了那個林市長我跟你講我也不要我只是要讓政策回去告訴部長"},{"start":6078.117,"end":6093.771,"text":"立法委員有心幫忙你們推政策當然因為我們握有這個經費的審查權我們了解越多對你們的經費越有幫助啊這是在審議算不是我們不是有兩個重點嗎地方的建設或者創意的建設我們都沒有刪啊不是嗎"},{"start":6101.258,"end":6118.971,"text":"那為什麼你們會把他寫官樣文章本來細節很清楚我一看就一目了然那為什麼要去撮放我不曉得但是我希望你們要去檢討不要以為立法委員了解你們所以這個叫做政策搖擺"},{"start":6121.192,"end":6140.241,"text":"這叫什麼 你在怕什麼給立法委員知道你們的政策有什麼不行呢所以 政事 我不再跟你編這個你們自己要去檢討下次再發生這種事情我跟你講 我們沒有什麼我一個就是罵 一個就是動你們的預算所以我希望"},{"start":6141.081,"end":6160.424,"text":"大家立法委員要幫你們結果喝人拍人你們搞不清楚所以我坦白跟你講從我當立法委員到現在我對交通政策我每一樣都非常支持的我不希望你們把立法委員的這些了解權當成是好像是賊"},{"start":6161.505,"end":6183.755,"text":"不要這樣 立法委員有立法委員的職責該支持的我們就會支持好不好 政治這個反映給部長 不用再說了我不敢講說最起碼藐視國會可是你不讓立法委員了解你們的政策根本就是你們什麼怕什麼東西好不好 來接下來我用時間裡面因為我兩個同事兩個市長都在那邊等 來"},{"start":6193.159,"end":6203.346,"text":"現在到底我們輕能車要發展我不反對我支持但是沒有加輕站他怎麼樣去行使呢"},{"start":6211.913,"end":6237.338,"text":"現在只有高雄嘛嘉慶站現在是由中游公司在設置只有高雄有一個嘛北部地區你們要做人家就抗議了嘛所以整體上來看就是要這裡才會是推一個示範型那當然中游公司在設嘉慶站的時候他有相關的一個好啦沒有關係啦我只是要點出"},{"start":6238.118,"end":6257.178,"text":"你們要推這些為什麼不併進一定要去做這些所以我只是提醒政次你要跟部長講既然要推這些加輕的這些加輕站那你當然這個這個輕能發展你以後就有辦法去發展那這樣的話"},{"start":6259.5,"end":6273.835,"text":"要併進去發展才有辦法不要頭痛衣桶腳痛衣腳做一個表面這樣對節能減碳對於淨零沒有幫助的啦好不好好 另外一個那我要請教師長現在你們只有找葉澤開盤點會議幹什麼"},{"start":6280.963,"end":6305.725,"text":"我們報告一下這個東西就是我剛剛有跟委員報告的部分就是說國內這個清冷部分目前是一個示範運行那我們也理解第一個部分要推清冷第一個一定要先有車輛那車輛最好是要有國產的車輛但是國內目前沒有這樣子國產的汽車那第二個部分要有這個家慶站好的那我知道來因為最後我要特別因為我們要有在地的檢驗站"},{"start":6307.486,"end":6329.927,"text":"因為你不能講說國外檢驗的都一定國外吃飯是用叉子我們是用筷子所以完全不一樣所以我們要有在地的檢驗帳行車才會安全這是一條龍的整個有系統的發展才是對的現在完全沒有說實在話這個我說實在對於"},{"start":6334.571,"end":6345.117,"text":"有關於這個輕能大客車的部分60項法規那其中有三項跟輕的整體跟那個輕儲存的部分目前有爭取預算在因為我本期重視的是這一塊我希望我希望"},{"start":6349.8,"end":6364.458,"text":"當然輕能的這些大貨車我們希望把它做成功我們也期待交通部把它做得更完善因為這對節能減碳跟清零絕對有幫助所以我還是希望啦齁我還是希望部長"},{"start":6365.459,"end":6394.897,"text":"希望責成市長把你們現在未來要做的希望給我了解你們要怎麼做但是我剛才提出這兩點我希望你們也要一併考慮好不好委員的要求我想我們會把整個因為這個是輕能源示範車輛我們的構想跟未來要怎麼樣推動整體的一個類似像書面資料提供給委員必要的時候也可以請市長特別跟委員做說明以上"},{"start":6394.977,"end":6409.849,"text":"因為我們市長在等了謝謝林國成委員好那在這邊先行宣告等一下在本席質詢完之後休息10分鐘那接下來邀請林軍憲委員發言"},{"start":6418.447,"end":6441.994,"text":"謝謝主席本席邀請我們交通部陳次長公總的陳局長陳局長二位好兩位好今天陳次長來剛好你也當過公總的局長所以我今天寫給你課一下你有看過這種標籤嗎兩個像三角形"},{"start":6446.454,"end":6475.337,"text":"尖尖的錶 立法會就有標線嘛這個在我們台南 雪甲的華中路啦 它是台19線公總最近去給它重新鋪路道路品質提升改善但你標線化這種標線 你造成全國唯一一個經過十字路口的時候 你一定要蛇行而且蛇行合法 你沒有蛇行你就非法"},{"start":6476.238,"end":6498.938,"text":"因為你沒有蛇行你就會壓到標線壓到標線要花錢為什麼你必須要蛇行呢來 我給你看個影片好不好來 次長你也一起看一下啦這台車經過我剛畫的那個路線他一定要抓到右邊來有沒有然後過了路口他一定要再開回來他不得不蛇行啦"},{"start":6500.302,"end":6522.059,"text":"你不要小看這樣喔這條路是當地的一個鬧區喔那每天車輛很多那你為什麼把線畫成這樣子呢我們再回去上去看一下因為你要創造一個左轉空間但它又不是偏心左轉車道因為偏心左轉車道你不能影響執行車啦"},{"start":6523.615,"end":6551.774,"text":"我在台南市的市區 爭取很多啦 健康路 中華西路 金華路 西門路我現在做很多經費 做很多經費的支持 做很多的偏見阻擋車道 反應非常好你這個是奇奇怪怪啦 因為你為了創造阻擋空間那你直行車變成沒有空間 一定要往右邊來那就跟機慢車輛搶在一起 所以他一定要捨行如果你要過馬路 你是直行的話 你是不是一定要捨行"},{"start":6552.834,"end":6570.317,"text":"對不對所以你這種標線怎麼來的我也覺得很奇怪 我也看過這個阿嬤幫你問啦 他說這個標線型插畫線你再回去看一下 我們再看那個影片來 這次再看一次來你再看一次看看"},{"start":6572.531,"end":6589.631,"text":"你現在經過入口你不能執行你一定要右偏過來跟機慢車搶到然後過入口再舍行回來再舍行回來執行到如果是所謂標線型潮汗線喔你有沒有畫斜線你真的沒有畫潮汗線"},{"start":6592.437,"end":6608.03,"text":"我就問你們啊 那你根據是什麼如果沒有根據就算了 那竟然有根據啊他說根據道路交通標誌標線後置設置規制還有公路路線設計規範沒人知道有這個東西啦他說那是一個漸變型慢慢變化 延伸發明出來我不知道是不是這樣來的啦"},{"start":6618.698,"end":6646.171,"text":"這個一定要改啦 局長是 你不蓋 你看到馬上 他們就把它磨除掉了因為它確實 我知道 是我們去辦一個會談話你們畫這種線 你們怎樣就把它劃掉啦但是你劃掉以後 你就磨損到路面嘛沒有菜 你的爐 大家做得比較漂亮你現在就要把它刷 用起來你就破壞到路面那為什麼會設計出這樣的標圈 這才是個問題啦"},{"start":6648.41,"end":6675.335,"text":"那是怎麼通過你們內部是怎麼討論怎麼去畫圍住這個線來其實交通部有通過一個非常重要的規則這是運營所 運營所在嗎運營所在今年1月推出道路交通標誌標線號誌設置參考指引我想說這個指引很重要因為這個指引裡面他把各種標線怎麼畫"},{"start":6677.658,"end":6701.227,"text":"統一了中央跟地方啦過去他們的中央跟地方都有落差啦地方都有變為違約中央有違約所以我們現在運營所今年運過通過這個參考指引喔他就是要解決啦中央地方 省車 鄉鎮 公售那個道路的品質現在連品質都要求要一致化然後呢 交通標誌 標線 號誌都要單一的實施"},{"start":6706.032,"end":6728.649,"text":"很多縣市會產生奇奇怪怪的標線啊既然你有當做這個版本 那我也請交通部要趕快讓各縣市的交通局 地方的單位 宅仔一定要來參考這樣的一個指標來解決過去中央跟地方各自都有一些奇奇怪怪的東西的標線耗資嘛"},{"start":6731.613,"end":6756.084,"text":"來 像剛剛那個地方 你要怎麼解決其實你應該 偏心左腦應該在這個地方就是這個 對不對 你在執行嘛執行車不能改變啦 執行車要直直開啦然後你要左轉的車 這裡有空間讓他左轉嘛不像你剛才那個 那個怪傻嘛那對面來車也一樣 只是對面可能會少一個近半車道那你們要去把它劃出來嘛"},{"start":6757.356,"end":6777.399,"text":"我跟委員說明一下有關這個預言所的這樣一個參考指引部長也非常重視因為也涵班了所以要求部裡頭要對各縣市要做一些說明或考核然後去看他們是不是有確實按照這個指引來做一些相關改善"},{"start":6778.18,"end":6787.365,"text":"那我下禮拜我會再去現場啦我再請公總派人來應該把那個標線給解決好那個路段對當地對台南合格的那個地方那是速斷橋一條路啦好 再來"},{"start":6794.307,"end":6821.258,"text":"我要討論一個就是身障朋友如果要考駕照我還接觸到一個陳情案有一位身障朋友他在台南市要參加汽車考照但台南市沒有任何一個駕訓班有那個殘障特製的那種身障車讓他去考照所以這位朋友這位市民他就去問台南監理站台南監理站怎麼回答說叫他去駕駛 叫他去過永克"},{"start":6823.34,"end":6832.222,"text":"那你對於深藏朋友是不是很不方便後來喔 他說自己騎的駕訓班有一台深藏的駕訓車 兩號這個人說 不然你叫我們台南監理站幫他把那台車借來嘛借來給我扣嘛 他就不用找我扛嘛我們就告訴他 不行 我們不想借來後來他來找我申請 我請我們監理站去幫忙有借回來啦"},{"start":6852.245,"end":6878.698,"text":"但我意思就是說像這種事情其實不需要說讓民眾要去找民代啦找立委來幫忙這是一個服務嘛啊 等我來瞭解一下我才發現喔原來啊深藏朋友考駕照很不方便啦你可能知道啊台中以南我們全國台中伊朗所有的管區監理站都沒有深藏的駕訓車啦你要知道喔"},{"start":6882.168,"end":6909.07,"text":"嘉義 監獄 等於嘉義雲林嘉義 台南一直到嘉義市台南的各地的監獄站沒有任何一台有身障朋友可以考駕照的駕訓車這個是很嚴重的問題那台南市更慘台南市是連駕訓班民間的駕訓班都連一台都沒有那周邊 周邊的"},{"start":6912.03,"end":6929.019,"text":"駕訓班駕駛員有啦 歌勇有啦但是像高雄它是民間駕訓班有伸張車但監理站也沒有這個是不是應該我們監理站啦應該要有這樣的一台駕訓車吧來 沈議長"},{"start":6932.211,"end":6947.02,"text":"跟我們報告沒有的部分我們已經要求就像這個台南跟嘉義地區的這個目前就是說在改裝這個我們的考驗車的部分今年會來執行那像台南的有一些駕訓班的這個考驗車還有訓練車"},{"start":6949.281,"end":6970.047,"text":"的一個改裝我們也會來這個輔導這個台南地區的只是跟委員報告就是說比較少原因是因為身障的人士因為他的條件不太一樣他比如說上肢下肢左右邊所以他改裝的幅度也不是很一樣所以大部分來考試的其實他們都有自備車輛有的他是不一定能夠考像這個不然你就要負擔你的能力嘛"},{"start":6975.745,"end":7003.116,"text":"我們盡量來看能不能你不能在台中 伊朗 高隆坡所有的感染者都沒有報台你要幹什麼對不對你說有些會有特殊狀況但你至少公家要有提供嘛那民眾說他要靠你 你就說沒有啦 台南沒有啦你自己去教他一個人靠你看 你要不要拿酒來後來我們有做這樣的一個服務啦但是"},{"start":7004.414,"end":7027.281,"text":"我也請 我也請那個我們相關單位就身障朋友的考照需求我們一般是身障大概有 領有那個身障身障那個大概有五萬人喔五六萬人喔 那他們裡面如果有考駕照需求的話我希望是不是可以提供一定的一個方便性會 一定來協助好 我們謝謝兩位 謝謝次長 謝謝局長好 謝謝林俊憲委員"},{"start":7035.41,"end":7053.52,"text":"接下來邀請李昆哲委員發言謝謝陳樹越召委 請一下陳彥博次長好 請陳次長"},{"start":7062.656,"end":7086.748,"text":"市長我首先請教你光光也是你督導的一屋之一嘛對嗎那我先請教你我們現在春節的這個期間訂房率在12月26的時候啊2024年12月26那各縣市回報是不到4成那我們來比較2019年的春節期間的"},{"start":7087.688,"end":7106.808,"text":"住房率最低的是4乘5那觀光旅館的住用率來講全國平均是到達63.74%那住用率最高的縣市台北市是71%高雄市也有66%那比較低的花蓮縣也有45%那2025年"},{"start":7111.095,"end":7135.974,"text":"其實我們來看在春節的訂房率平均現在大概是4成因為我們看到12月26的時候各縣市他們有這個回報給觀光署的時候是還不到4成那1月6號這是最新的回報的數據地方政府回報給觀光署的訂房率"},{"start":7136.815,"end":7164.721,"text":"列為有提升現在觀光旅館的訂房率全國平均是40.15%那訂房率最低的縣市華連縣也提升到25%了那其實市長你要注意來看2023年的春節7天前的這個平均訂房率是48%2024年的春節30天前平均訂房率是40%"},{"start":7166.081,"end":7173.443,"text":"那15天前2024年的春節15天前的平均定房率是42%這是2024年的春節2023、2024的一個數據那2025他現在才只有4成而已市長你了解這個狀況你們有什麼對策嗎"},{"start":7186.94,"end":7209.855,"text":"我想跟委員做一個說明就是這個定房率當然會依照各個不同的縣市的不同那委員剛才也特別提到現在是整體的定房率就是下降嗎你認為因素是什麼我覺得整體的大概今年的這個假期如果是假期大概是九天前前後後的話大概有高達十幾天"},{"start":7210.675,"end":7239.62,"text":"所以呢多數很多的國人我們昨天開相關的這個輸運的一個計畫可以發現很多的國人是選擇出國所以出國也會有相當的影響這是一個但是呢因為這是今年的年假很長它的平均住房率是整個九天或幾天所以它會有一個平均的一個情形但是你如果看它這個核心的這個天數當然是因素之一譬如說"},{"start":7240.34,"end":7256.547,"text":"初二到初四之間大年夜到初幾當然放假的天數會影響相關的住宿率這也是因素之一另外相關住宿的費用過於高昂"},{"start":7257.611,"end":7286.536,"text":"也是不可否認的因素之一嘛對不對來說明一下有關這個房價的問題一直是長期以來國人的對於在國內旅遊的認為是說無法選擇在國內旅遊一個很重要的因素但是房價又會跟他所提供的這個旅館的這個服務品質也會有關係啦市長你當然也提到天數是一個問題然後費用是一個問題那交通部有什麼對應的策略嗎"},{"start":7290.241,"end":7317.056,"text":"因為春節的時候其實在各縣市尤其是春節的時候完了以後會有燈會所以其實各個縣市其實在春節期間它也都會有相關的一個活動然後時間又那麼長所以很多的民眾也會選擇在這個春節期間譬如說現在住宿率低就是一個不爭的事實理由啦當然我們提到相關的因素那我們有什麼相關對應的策略嗎"},{"start":7317.996,"end":7335.261,"text":"當然有人會提到是否要國旅的補助當然國旅補助是有它一定的這個規範不管是天災或者是疫情或者是整體淡季的時候的一種非常態性的這樣的一個補助但是純潔它就比較不屬於這個範圍"},{"start":7337.677,"end":7347.878,"text":"而且這不是住宿率的問題 這是整體觀光產業會受到衝擊的一個問題啊交通部沒有拿出任何對應的辦法 這個讓我非常失望"},{"start":7351.439,"end":7368.69,"text":"經常用補助不是一個好方法但是今年整年來講我們對於這個整個不管是國際觀光客來台或整體的這國內的有關旅遊如何復甦我想我們觀光署大概會有一系列的一個規劃"},{"start":7370.131,"end":7398.327,"text":"你看你都講得吞吞吐吐我就認為你們交通部還拿不出對於提升國內旅遊以及吸引國外旅客到臺灣旅遊啊還沒有提出具體的政策你們必須要盡快的拿出相關對應的策略我想我會責請觀光署儘速把這個計畫這個旅遊業者大家都在期待交通部要有更進一步具體的作為能夠提升相關的觀光旅遊產業的發展"},{"start":7399.761,"end":7415.287,"text":"那整個觀光產業的一個發展其實行政院最近也會召開相關的諮詢委員會那裡頭我們會在裡頭跟徵詢相關的業界的意見看如何來推動國內的觀光那你們認為你們交通部什麼時候會提出具體的做法"},{"start":7417.233,"end":7429.247,"text":"因為相關的會議大概在一月的下旬所以我想我們近期應該會提出相關的一個方案這個民眾已經不太能接受現在目前觀光旅遊的這種狀況必須要提出具體的作為"},{"start":7432.731,"end":7450.618,"text":"好 那我現在來請教你 我們今天的議題就是國際海事組織IMO在近兩年的NEPC的會議的結果它會要求國際航線以及航商要有具體的目標就是2030年以前"},{"start":7451.678,"end":7476.459,"text":"碳強度要降低40%2040年預計要減少70%至80%並且要在2050年達到溫室氣體淨零排放的這樣一個標準當然它有一些具體的措施就是2030年這個傳播所使用的能源占比至少要有5%是來自於淨零的這個"},{"start":7478.641,"end":7503.998,"text":"燃料而且要使用碳捕捉的系統捕捉傳播排放尾氣產生的二氧化碳而且並且要儲存新建或者是在建造中的船隻要嚴格的審查它傳播的能源效率設計的指數提高審查的標準等等那而且要航行中要使用相關的這種節能的技術"},{"start":7504.818,"end":7533.499,"text":"那歐盟對於淨營的措施要求是更加的嚴格那其實我要請教的是市長我們對於台灣的各大港口對於相關這種國際的趨勢跟標準我們準備好了沒有我們有足夠的岸電設施嗎或者是我們未來要如何進行淨營燃料的添加是否有進行規劃來港澳公司要說明還是港港局"},{"start":7534.639,"end":7548.717,"text":"好 那個目前我們也配合國際MO組織那目前我們所有的港口當中有已經建置了219座的低壓的岸墊"},{"start":7549.838,"end":7562.331,"text":"那另外11座的高壓岸墊那在今年跟明年的話我們另外還要做建置5座尤其是基隆的那個郵輪一座那高雄一個郵輪三個貨櫃場"},{"start":7565.094,"end":7590.061,"text":"那另外的話我們配合整個那個淨零碳排的話我們在高雄的話我們目前在在評估規劃LNG跟相關的劣甲醇一些燃料能夠降低那另外我們自己我們所有的港口就是我們也做一個配合那個智慧港灣所以我們那個自動門哨的話盡量能夠"},{"start":7592.882,"end":7610.136,"text":"因為時間的關係我最後再請教一個小問題也是大議題那主流的四種淨零的燃料台灣的安全規格像LNG它的液化溫度要低於零下163度需要有低溫的這種防護態的儲存"},{"start":7613.457,"end":7637.832,"text":"空間的需求是1.6倍那家村也是要常溫的長壓的液態儲存它空間需求是2.3然後安氣是要液化的溫度是要零下34度那它是有毒而且對人體的安全風險度最高它空間儲存也要2.9倍那氫氣也是要零下253度而且"},{"start":7640.939,"end":7659.12,"text":"有容易爆炸或燃燒的這種危險它的空間需求最大要4.3倍那我們針對這種未來主流的這種淨零燃料的物理特性我們有足夠的安全規範嗎那個葉局長跟委員報告這個分兩個部分跟委員報告"},{"start":7659.44,"end":7672.017,"text":"那第一個是針對這個LNG跟甲醇這種氣體或是低閃點的這個燃料的安全的部分我們在去年的1月已經依照存保法 101條採納EMO所發布的這個叫IGF code"},{"start":7677.364,"end":7691.294,"text":"他是針對這樣的一個綠色能源的一般性的通用的規範所以這個部分我們已經跟國際接軌那第二個部分是針對特殊的淨零的燃料比如說氨氣"},{"start":7693.475,"end":7718.952,"text":"這樣的一個特殊染料那EMO呢他也另外發布了臨時性的使用安全準則這個部分我們也喊請我們的行商來參考那氫氣的部分EMO目前還沒有發布是預計在2026年就明年會來發布那剛剛跟委員報告的氨氣跟氫氣這個部分他們都是所謂的臨時性的使用安全準則還不是這個強制性的規範"},{"start":7720.293,"end":7732.969,"text":"那當他轉換成強制性的規範我們一定會依照傳播法來做一個內國法化的動作跟國際來做接軌來確保這個傳播操作的安全"},{"start":7733.7,"end":7762.412,"text":"好那以上不過次長我是要提醒你我們的吸引國外的旅客是預證法律當然我們國旅在今年在2024年當然有逐漸恢復到疫情之前的水準但是春節這個住宿率真的是讓大家失望必須嚴加的督促必須做整體的一個重新的檢討跟規劃是我們會朝這個方向來努力謝謝李崑澤委員"},{"start":7770.74,"end":7783.354,"text":"現在請陳素月召委發言謝謝主席 請主席 要請陳次長請陳英博次長"},{"start":7791.205,"end":7808.233,"text":"市長早安今天委員會是針對陸海空交通運輸業因應近年排放轉型的改善措施那相關單位都有做了這個報告那我們也知道就是說有關運輸的部分就是我們交通部要主責就是"},{"start":7809.713,"end":7830.004,"text":"這個淨零排放的相關的一個政策那我們看到就是在2023年4月行政院有核定了這個12項的關鍵戰略行動計畫那關鍵戰略10就是淨零綠生活就是由交通部來主責那交通部就是預計要推動營造深度的減碳運輸計畫還有這個低碳交通區的規劃與示範交通場域設施節能減碳"},{"start":7836.227,"end":7862.438,"text":"還有基礎設施調試等這個重點的工作那我們也看到在114年度的總預算就是我們剛剛審完主要在運營所的部分它有編列了這個運輸研究業務營造深度減碳運輸環境及打造低耗冷交通場域的計畫編列了4050萬這個是就是分年執行的一個計畫"},{"start":7864.159,"end":7889.729,"text":"交通部也編了六千萬元要用在講補助費補助直轄市及各縣市政府建立低碳交通示範區這樣子的一個計畫那在這邊我想請教一下就是這個建立低碳交通示範區這個是一個很新的觀念那我不曉得我們交通部要怎麼去推動然後要做到什麼程度是不是可以請"},{"start":7890.669,"end":7914.736,"text":"市長先簡單講一下我有簡單說明以後再請運營所或供應司來做說明原則上低碳交通區的一個概念剛剛委員特別提到其實是整個在國際間有關淨零轉型上各國大概有幾個國家會採行的一個措施就希望在那個區域裡面的運具也好或是旅行的型態也好都能夠採用這個低碳"},{"start":7916.676,"end":7939.894,"text":"或者是近鄰的一個工具在這裡頭運作所以呢至於說要怎麼做這也才會有運輸研究所先要就這一個低碳交通區他會去做一個相關的研究研究完了以後他就訂定在今年訂定了相關一個補助的要點然後在要點以後才會在今年的預算編列來補助各地方政府看怎麼樣來實施這個有關低碳交通區"},{"start":7940.975,"end":7961.481,"text":"但是這個地攤交通區的一個未來的一個構想跟想像要如何執行其實還少了一個相關的一個指引所以目前我也是請這個運營所就這個指引來告訴大家如何來做那原則上做的話會分三個區域一個當然是都會區的一個是有關這個應該是"},{"start":7963.602,"end":7975.499,"text":"景區的景區的一個那有另外一個是有關外島低碳的這樣的一個低碳的交通區的這個概念所以原則上是朝這個三個方向來來做以上"},{"start":7975.896,"end":8002.346,"text":"好 那請議員說明有關於那個低碳交通區這個部分就是剛剛次長提到因為整個低碳的部分本來他是從整個淨零排放這個部分然後把整個高溫的一個這個印記能夠把它排除在外那希望能夠從一個小範圍慢慢地推廣讓整個空氣的這個玻璃能夠那個把它建置起來"},{"start":8003.186,"end":8025.176,"text":"因為我們整個在推進的進度就是說剛剛講了有一些是在都會區譬如說在新西華區或是巴黎這些市區或是在風景區來做一些管制那另外在這個新興的那個新市鎮或是一個部分可以去做一些比較完整一點可以管制這些車輛的部分可以"},{"start":8026.757,"end":8044.795,"text":"來處理後續的話當然這個地方擁有區這個草案已經出來了那後續的話供應司這邊我們整個部門就會來繼續來補助這個地方政府因為這是地方知識事項那由這個部門來逐漸來推進一些計畫"},{"start":8046.769,"end":8065.806,"text":"好 那我們知道就是也包括剛剛次長回答的 育年所就是要進行收集跟彙整國內外有關低碳交通區的類似的案例的實施內容然後要檢視我們低碳交通區相關的法規缺口還有掩體相關的法制可是剛剛也有提到說這個要點"},{"start":8068.569,"end":8085.73,"text":"你才剛提出嘛那據我所得到的訊息我不曉得現在有沒有更新的進度就是在去年就是113年8月10號運營所有將低碳交通區的補助作業要點函送交通部可是交通部核定了嗎市長回答一下"},{"start":8087.83,"end":8105.526,"text":"合訂了嗎?這個要點是經過交通部合訂就可以了,那剛才我有說明,正在這個部裡頭大概做一些旅遊,那另外一個我們希望這個要點以後能夠去說明給地方更詳細的一個指引,看怎麼樣來做,所以這個東西部裡頭應該還在檢討中,是"},{"start":8108.755,"end":8123.602,"text":"所以這個要點就是交通部核定就可以了那還沒確定那交通部核定了嗎跟我們補充報告一下第一個部分這個要點基本上交通部這個核定就可以不用送到對那核定就可以那核定了嗎那目前市裡面"},{"start":8124.122,"end":8139.456,"text":"正在這個就是說修正運營所送上來的一個這個草案那我這邊也特別跟委員報告就是說這個地攤交通區的部分的話大概就是說在目前有一些電動化跟地攤化還有燃油這些運具的使用這個過程當中"},{"start":8140.737,"end":8166.736,"text":"那希望說建立一些這個地攤化跟這個電動化的一個這個環境那我們期待說這些相關的這個環境的建立不要以管制為首要應該裡面還有一些相關配套就是說讓大家很自然去這個熟悉使用這樣子的部分所以這些相關補助要點的部分的話我們細節是裡面還在檢討那另外一個部分的話剛剛委員有提到就是相關地方政府的部分其實大概整個這個運營所在過程當中"},{"start":8167.717,"end":8183.554,"text":"有跟地方政府做討論那其實也有很多這個地方政府有表達這樣子的意願那這些相關未來因為確實六千萬的金額不多啦那在這個補助要點裡面就必須要有一個這個遴選的一個程序這個部分我們就要比較特別周圍去做一個考量"},{"start":8184.355,"end":8202.024,"text":"是好那就是剛剛你們的回覆就是可以看得出來目前是要點交通部也還沒有核定那你們就已經先框了這個預算那我不曉得說這樣接下來你們的這個執行到底能不能順利那我剛剛有請教次長說"},{"start":8203.084,"end":8225.735,"text":"我們這個低碳交通區要進行到什麼樣的程度是參照歐盟的方式嗎因為我們來看一下就是有關歐盟的他們的一個實施的一個方式事實上有關歐盟他們實施這個低碳交通區他們也是經過了很多年的討論、試行還有試應之後才去實施的"},{"start":8226.155,"end":8241.429,"text":"那我們是這個觀念我想一般民眾可能都還完全不知道那我們現在就要來補助那補助意思就是要去落實的嘛那我不曉得說在今年有哪一個縣市會來做那因為我們的國情啊民情還有我們"},{"start":8241.949,"end":8245.672,"text":"的地理環境地狹人稠我不曉得說我們來實施這個會不會遇到阻礙啦其實以我的看法我覺得應該會會有很大的阻礙啦因為你看這個以德國歐洲來看德國他們的這個低碳交通區他是將車牌"},{"start":8260.904,"end":8283.779,"text":"那個排放量是分為三種然後有用三個顏色去區分然後經過幾十年的過渡期檢討然後他在2021年的時候他們就說貼紅色貼紙的車輛就禁止進入低排放區然後貼綠色貼紙的車輛才可以駛入低排放區否則就是會有罰則罰款那我不曉得我們"},{"start":8286.861,"end":8306.955,"text":"是朝這個方向嗎我們有可能做到這樣子的一個階段嗎我想跟委員做說明剛才講這個示範區而且它是在2050的淨零排放的路徑藍圖裡面所以不會是在今年一開始要實施的時候就採取這麼嚴格的管制的作為所以你們補助的話"},{"start":8308.936,"end":8325.382,"text":"區域漸進而且剛才我有特別提到他會有幾個區域在做比如說都市型的或者是景點跟離島的或者是工業區等等的所以他會選擇一個比較適宜的地方採取用鼓勵的方式先行的方式來做處理"},{"start":8326.002,"end":8344.11,"text":"是 我想就是當然就是說淨零碳排2050是一個國際的一個趨勢那每一個部會都有自己要努力的一個目標那會有要擬定的一個政策那我們希望就是說這樣子的一個政策在推動的過程真的要"},{"start":8345.17,"end":8365.526,"text":"就是要去考量到我們的民情然後也要加強去宣導因為不能驟然實施不然可能就是會造成很大的不適應就是會引起很大的反彈跟這個民怨好 謝謝委員的指導 謝謝好 現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":8383.832,"end":8387.773,"text":"你們感覺是站到一個..."},{"start":8409.399,"end":8416.241,"text":"還有杯子,還有一個燒烤箱還有一個燒烤箱還有一個燒烤箱還有一個燒烤箱還有一個燒烤箱"},{"start":8437.689,"end":8440.151,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":8457.31,"end":8457.33,"text":"鞭筍"},{"start":8469.801,"end":8469.821,"text":"好"},{"start":8487.569,"end":8493.911,"text":"要炒海鮮蚊子蚊子海鮮蚊子蚊子蚊子"},{"start":8516.396,"end":8535.746,"text":"這裏有個大廈,這裏有個大廈,這裏有個大廈,"},{"start":8540.708,"end":8558.626,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8563.375,"end":8563.796,"text":"這裏有個大廈"},{"start":8585.25,"end":8587.431,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8612.942,"end":8613.963,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":8630.439,"end":8630.619,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":8654.425,"end":8655.246,"text":"我今天好像"},{"start":8683.617,"end":8684.458,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳"},{"start":8705.493,"end":8707.514,"text":"明天 明天要下禮拜才去喔"},{"start":8733.106,"end":8735.388,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":8752.661,"end":8752.721,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":8787.312,"end":8788.993,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8815.118,"end":8817.479,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8853.355,"end":8853.675,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":8873.702,"end":8884.073,"text":"河沙沙沙"},{"start":8897.004,"end":8898.745,"text":"這裏是大廈的大廈"},{"start":8913.219,"end":8934.849,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳"},{"start":8950.185,"end":8952.046,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":8974.586,"end":8993.757,"text":"好現在繼續開會接下來邀請魯明哲召委質詢喂好謝主席有請我們交通部陳次長請陳次長關公署"},{"start":9007.013,"end":9015.178,"text":"這樣我直接請教一下因為這是我在今年的3月22號大概去年已經變去年了九個多月了"},{"start":9016.363,"end":9036.442,"text":"我們特別在總質詢的時候雖然這個時代已經變了我覺得有一些政策的一個延續我當時在問之前我們政府院長說這個大概五六百萬的轉機旅客轉機旅客在台灣秀在機場就轉出去了如果能夠把它納入變成我們過境觀光"},{"start":9037.783,"end":9060.82,"text":"的一部分的話不管是近距離能夠有一些產值我們覺得他當時提的idea很好所以我們那時候就問那這個到底要怎麼做預計時程如何所以當時我們陳建仁院長特別說因為轉機關關跨部會確實跨部會跨部會包括要證照啊怎麼路徑啊怎麼安排啊確實跨部會所以要"},{"start":9062.182,"end":9091.282,"text":"研究 好好研議中 希望早日推動啊那我現在再問這句話就是說 九個月了目前研議的狀況如何 開了幾次會呃 呃 委員這容我我發現要找個署長他沒來嘛 是那你就 自以奴隸啊呃 不是自以奴隸還是市長啊 哪個市長知道啊 因為我沒有開過會啦所以 所以我 我可能相關 呃 官發署應該有相關的研議啦那研議的結果是不是另外提供給委員參考 是所以你沒 你也不知道什麼狀況"},{"start":9092.419,"end":9100.082,"text":"我知道觀光署有就這一部分在研議如何讓這個轉接的旅客能夠進到國內順道觀光你們那個司長有來嗎負責觀光的司長沒來現在完全沒來那就次長單打了"},{"start":9107.216,"end":9135.998,"text":"那我的意思就是說這樣的一個政策因為是讓他有他的一個急迫性這也是我們台灣的一個重要的一個資源在疫情之後說實在的我們台灣的轉機旅客是不斷的向上升機場都是轉機的旅客很多從東南亞轉歐洲的過去都在別的機場現在都在以台灣我們這邊桃園機場為基地所以當這個人數增加的時候我們看的來"},{"start":9137.379,"end":9153.34,"text":"直接來看一下因為我們好不容易要推嘛過境啊這些過境旅客這個半日遊的一個情況因為他們這個轉機的時間不一定嘛比如半日遊或四個小時就帶他去台灣旅遊消費一下我們來看一下"},{"start":9154.724,"end":9179.564,"text":"我們得到的數據說你看112年113年113年剛過完轉居旅客在去年你們就11月多給我們的資料連續兩年112年總共有625萬113年667萬其實人數真的是蠻多的跟之前政府委員長期許的人數這麼多能不能抓一些留下來結果抓了多少呢這從112年的5月份"},{"start":9181.405,"end":9193.52,"text":"到13年的11月大概一年七個月總共大概母數我覺得大概差不多800萬到900萬人裡面只留下了1.4萬人"},{"start":9195.819,"end":9225.354,"text":"能夠過境旅遊那中間有些不是觀光署的問題不是交通的問題嘛所以那時候叫你們去研議為什麼呢因為鎮照他許可進來人本身就少嘛對不對那其他你要很繁複的簽證手續人家那個只有四個小時沒有辦法給你搞這個很多的問題要去解決但是我們現在急的原因就是說你看看喔你看看這個的部分到13年的話才大概1.4萬左右啦齁那其中呢"},{"start":9226.906,"end":9244.684,"text":"看最下面一行就是在自由行自由行這1.4萬人他自己進來大概自己遊玩的4%專人導覽就各單位觀光單位專人導覽去安排這個部分在台北市的"},{"start":9245.385,"end":9272.482,"text":"也有大概六千多人我們桃園也很急啊因為桃園做集結大概兩三站大概四站就到了嘛金浦的鬧區啊 或者進市區嘛也有一千多人新北一百一四人所以我們是覺得確實有這樣的一個機會然後透過你組合的譬如說 簽證你比較有疑慮的就組團式的來進來所以想方設法欸 次長啊你到底要不要做啊"},{"start":9274.005,"end":9300.803,"text":"我想我跟委員報告委員下面這一行其實現行就有這樣的一個機制只是量實在是很少那剛才委員特別提到如何利用這個轉機的人數來進入國內做大概是短時間的一個觀光這個過境觀光這部分觀光署我的了解他們有內部正在要推一個計畫來辦理這個方向是會朝這個方向去做的"},{"start":9301.445,"end":9322.904,"text":"好 我想次長因為現在民航局長大概跟你好像關係也不大嘛你就飛機把他載進來就好了那其實我們現在有蠻多的願景因為就真的很急今年年初去提這件事情結果在大概剩下34天台灣燈會正好在桃園正好在A18的戰區坦白講大概從A17到A19的戰區只要從機場"},{"start":9327.85,"end":9354.876,"text":"二航廈以二航廈為例的話就大概三到四站就直接參與燈會了所以坦白講如果有過境的一個轉聚旅客在這個階段一定是他們的首選所以我看起來又搭配不上我今天是真的期許啦我看到部長也特別說這一次因為是12年設計的是一個SIGMA無限的那個概念希望台灣的希望無限那我也希望交通部跟"},{"start":9355.896,"end":9374.535,"text":"相關的單位我感覺在轉居旅客這個議題能力展現的非常非常有限真的希望你們能夠認真的加強當然包括了這個官務啊移民署啊真的要來開會一下啦真的要來開會啦有沒有辦法大概什麼時候主導一下"},{"start":9375.075,"end":9403.243,"text":"我想委員這個建議很好但你不能推給觀光署啦你一定要部長級的甚至找那個要行政院級的才有辦法召集這些人我想委員這一部分我會找觀光署來談一下因為這牽涉到觀光署剛才也特別聽到像這個淘機公司啊或者是相關的這個內政部等等單位我們來談一下看如何透過這樣在燈會期間在桃園地區做轉機的旅客看如何可以"},{"start":9404.243,"end":9428.716,"text":"其實關務最重要啦好不好 關務如果沒有簽證什麼譬如說移民署這個部分他簽證沒有辦法發或者說短期的沒有辦法去做處理都沒有用那我們再來看看那我今天問觀光署那你就一併回答囉那你今天回答很簡單我會跟觀光署署長講聽說他有做但是我覺得這個問題從你之前做這個局長到現在次長的時候你應該聽過很多次嘛"},{"start":9429.196,"end":9446.77,"text":"因為我們觀光署他做了很多的影片過去疫情期間花了很多錢讓大家神遊就是你網路還可以透過看影片去各地旅遊結果點閱率非常非常差那我現在蠻急的因為我們台灣都會有時效性對不對"},{"start":9448.251,"end":9470.228,"text":"以今年來講2月12號就開始了那簡單來講還剩三四天那你們十天前上架的影片啊花了兩百多萬去做影片做三個影片啊國際形象還沒上架啦預計一月上架啦那我們看到你們上架兩個影片啊大概都十天啊從昨天去統計啊第一個影片大概中文"},{"start":9471.691,"end":9493.174,"text":"點閱人數一千多人嘛那其他我們就不講了第二個影片中文版的點閱大概不到一千人那我不知道啦如果十天如果還剩下三個十天如果我們花幾百萬要弄這樣的這個東西我覺得很奇怪那我拜託次長我也不問你啊因為可能也不清楚那你們這個的部分"},{"start":9494.363,"end":9509.793,"text":"他們那個廣告 結果我們打電話去問說你們這個做了影片之後現在因為每一個社群平台都有他的演算法哪有讓你那麼輕鬆的你影片做得再好 再唯美不好意思 沒有觸局率啊他不會讓你去觸局 或者觸局有限"},{"start":9510.854,"end":9528.682,"text":"所以一定都會要參查投放所以他跟我講說我們純粹有兩百多萬就請他做影片然後就放到架裡面蛤 有沒有投放 精準投放都會在桃園 桃竹苗是不是精準投放 他說沒有那我們再來看看有百分之三十桃園市市政府做的"},{"start":9529.682,"end":9548.493,"text":"他目前同樣10天10天他目前而且是2分20秒的你們剛剛是30秒到底越短的影片越多人點閱結果他已經3.4萬你們才1000發生什麼事因為人家的錢奇怪還可以請明星當然第二個"},{"start":9550.216,"end":9573.89,"text":"他們在地方透過地方的FB LINE去幫忙推這個的影片然後又預算裡面15%是投放我要拜託能不能跟包括現在所有在座局長你們如果要做這些廣告如果你們的招標案裡面不留投放廣告的這個部分你等於是完完全全就是作廢他留了15%"},{"start":9575.531,"end":9584.919,"text":"百分之十五所以你回去能夠了解一下建議一下好吧那最後一個問題啊這個問題應該可以回答那應該問你現在唐人士政府剩下三四天"},{"start":9586.209,"end":9615.251,"text":"就要舉辦燈會了你們可不可以也幫幫忙一下你也知道這不是工作天還有三十幾天過年所有的工班所有要人大家都有休假計劃了到底他願不願意配合你能不能事前準備事實上 討厭市政府這個主辦單位就剩十幾天了二十萬就過年了嘛過年之後你再招標不定大家都休年假了所以 我要拜託一下現在整個的一個接駁接駁的費用他們總共要七千五百萬"},{"start":9616.272,"end":9627.894,"text":"他們自籌2500萬還需要5000萬左右大約跟去年台南市政府舉辦的金額差不多多100萬這個部分到底批了沒有"},{"start":9629.642,"end":9653.605,"text":"我想跟委員報告我也很關切這個議題所以我大概也有找他們談了一下原則上我們部裡頭會來支持因為每一年的相關的這種接駁的費用大概都會來支持但是這裡頭的相關的計劃的金額我們有稍微請他們去核算一下所以就那個金額的部分會做一些調整以後會盡速來核定"},{"start":9655.697,"end":9683.357,"text":"我跟你講時間真的不多了8號到25號大概兩個多禮拜的時間然後他還要上網招標那第二個呢這些大車的產業接駁車都是我們我想公路局長你也在這裡嘛就最稀缺駕駛都找不到很難搞的所以我希望你們就要不然跟桃園市政府講說要怎麼調大家就講最快速度把它處理好可以嗎"},{"start":9683.757,"end":9699.145,"text":"可以我跟委員報告有關那個接駁車的其實他們已經照票完了所以我才會講到說相關的經費我們可以來做一些調整就怕你們不給啊不會啦我們會給我們會給我講真的最後拜託你帶回去給陳局長陳部長這個經費適當他已經承諾好幾次了絕對比去年不會少那去年公務局是3700萬他現在3800萬不會少我們希望真的不要讓地方"},{"start":9712.972,"end":9727.353,"text":"去等不到這個經費因為這個的公文公務局的是11月27號給你們到目前已經一個多月了那觀光署的好像也還沒批下來是11月14號已經接近兩個月了我覺得"},{"start":9728.755,"end":9754.117,"text":"你們自己的工作早就標好了觀光署都在那邊做的都知道時間怕來不及了所以我們真的是希望一個禮拜以內你們這個事情一定要把它決定清楚市長可不可以幫忙我盡量朝委員的這個方向來做努力也跟委員報告原則上部長有承諾過就是說會比照去年該有的項目不會少所以原則上我們會這樣的方式來做補"},{"start":9754.637,"end":9768.784,"text":"不要說項目不會少 我聽得懂啦 該有的金額不會少好 拜託 謝謝盡量來努力 謝謝好 謝謝魯明哲召委好 接下來邀請徐副葵委員質詢"},{"start":9782.082,"end":9786.247,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請交通部陳政次還有公務局陳局長請陳次長還有陳局長委員好"},{"start":9797.02,"end":9820.555,"text":"政次郭局長早安我想我們今天討論的進行排放的政策之前我想我們還是先關心所謂一個行人地域改善的一個問題我想今年1月3號我們交通部有召開一個記者會針對各縣市危險路口改善的狀況有點名的桃園、彰化跟屏東縣還沒有完成改善"},{"start":9821.195,"end":9833.431,"text":"那這樣子也會被許多鄉親擔心說我們是大安表現比較差的一個縣市那這段期間也剛好發生了這個部長跟桃園市政府在爭論部長到底是這個訓導主任還是輔導老師的爭議然後講姑且這個爭議不斷"},{"start":9840.239,"end":9859.859,"text":"不論這個爭議是怎麼一回事啊我想未來交通的這個行人地域的改善才是我們的重中之重的一個工作我們也希望能夠盡快來完成那屏東縣政府面臨的困境就是在於說我們過去的這個整個經費的一個評估上面交通部給予的經費都不足造成我們流標的一個現象"},{"start":9860.399,"end":9878.232,"text":"像最近就是發生了連續流標三次然後我想縣政府也很頭痛啦也很傷腦筋那針對這樣子的一個經費的不足然後還有持續這個未來這個改善的計畫我交通部是不是可以給予我們屏東縣政府什麼樣的一個支持的一個力道請政治回答"},{"start":9879.767,"end":9907.485,"text":"我想交通部在有關各縣市有關這個行人改善應該是永續行人提升計畫裡面那分為兩部分一部分是內政部在補助一部分是交通部在補助的那原則上我的瞭解交通部補助的大概相關的計畫都完成而且經費也沒有問題那部分是大概是有關內政部的部分那這部分我們會來協助這個屏東縣政府如何來跟內政部多爭取一些必要的經費來辦理"},{"start":9909.206,"end":9928.241,"text":"那我想這是這個很道路的交通安全不分部會所以我才會講說我們看到的是說這個不管是內政部補助要還是交通部在補助我們應該是針對整個一個交通的路況交通的一個環境的一個整體的一個評估不能各做各的啊各做各的湊不起來啊"},{"start":9930.086,"end":9952.362,"text":"所以我比較擔心是在於說當我們有很多的一個規劃卻沒有跨部會轉合的時候會變成各行各自各自各做各自的但是到最後這個不管是行人也好不管是我們的機車或汽車的這個用路人也好他們會覺得這個設計上是有出現很多的一個問題那我想我們這邊也"},{"start":9953.724,"end":9971.301,"text":"過去有提了幾個案例也有請我們相關的部會來協助那我想這部分還是要再提醒一下我們交通部一定要我們還是要負起這個這個責任那另外我先要提到就是我們最近有做了一個很多的一個人行人庇護島的一個設施但是我想部長在臉書上提到說"},{"start":9972.082,"end":9997.588,"text":"庇護島就是要讓行人更安全但是呢這個部分不但是要去減少所謂的一個駕駛不當切西瓜的一個行為也要減少一個交通事故但是很遺憾的我們從數據上看見去年至少有1000件車輛自撞這個交通這個庇護島的一個案件所以我們這個整個政策的規劃上面是不是有出現一個問題包含我的助理自己騎摩托車"},{"start":9998.948,"end":10017.399,"text":"就好幾次幾乎都撞到那我們發現這個從圖面上來看這個整個這個標線的設計還有反光的一個設計我想沒有發揮很大的一個功用尤其是夜間這個視線不良非常非常的危險那真的這樣的一個庇護島的一個設置那次長這邊有沒有什麼一個改進的一個方案"},{"start":10021.846,"end":10046.556,"text":"原則上因為這個屁股島基本上大概道路的寬度比較寬行人就是說在通行的時候其實希望就是說在路中還是有一個這個保護那當然就是說有些的這個撞擊的部分就是有些駕駛人他自己本身就是並沒有到道路的中心線才左轉彎他有可能就像委員說的切西瓜直接切過去"},{"start":10047.176,"end":10063.366,"text":"所以視覺的這個整個的一個這個角度我覺得可能跟這個這個屁股島或許就是說他沒有看清楚另外當然屁股島其實在相關的這個道路交通標誌標線號誌設置上面譬如說包括這個警告的標線進障礙物的這個標線還有就是說這個反光設施"},{"start":10067.729,"end":10085.23,"text":"還有這個上面還有一些警告的分道標誌我是覺得說可能有一些的地方是不是就是說它的這個整個的這個屁股島的它的標誌標線它沒有設置得很完整我想這個部分可能有些部分是各單位的我們也會來跟內政部一起來檢討"},{"start":10086.671,"end":10102.144,"text":"部長我還是要提醒一個狀況因為現在剛剛林俊憲委員也有提到我們現在的路越開越大條越來越筆直那相對性的我們的燈號也多那個標線也多行人分隔島也多這個五花八門這個眼花繚亂"},{"start":10104.145,"end":10125.574,"text":"真的有時候你一個外地人到一個陌生的一個城市真的很容易發生危險啊那所以我剛剛為什麼一直提醒這個事情包含我們現在看到很多縣市的一個商圈我們現在整個在做一個行人環境包含你們講的一個規劃的部分但是我們看到的包含這個人行道的設置不當還有停車空間的不足甚至這個"},{"start":10126.814,"end":10147.816,"text":"商圈這個貨車的停卸的 停貨的空間的規劃我覺得都沒有一個完整的一個配套確實是有很多要改善的空間總不能工程做下去之後這樣再來修改 再來處理這都造成很多的黑暗 交通黑暗起了一個問題所以這部分我還是要特別提醒交通部我們應該要來全面來盤點來檢視這部分我們一起來努力"},{"start":10148.917,"end":10161.262,"text":"那另外針對我們2040年這個台灣汽機車電動化的目標的部分那截至目前今年度我想我們設定的目標是2025年電動大客車的普及率35電動小客車1.4還有電動機車要達到7.9的目標那請問一下 政次這個目標會達成嗎"},{"start":10172.064,"end":10195.178,"text":"這裡頭有關公車啦或小客車啦我們大概都有達成預定設定的目標那機車的部分呢目前這個還在努力中啦市售比的話今年應該到17那目前大概是10.7所以這之間還有一些差距我們還要再努力這個我們還是要積極啦不然我們就只有處理一個指標在那邊但是KPI都達不到"},{"start":10196.058,"end":10214.785,"text":"這個不管在委員會也好或是在議會都會被檢討啊我想這個不是為了這個數字而是為了整個我們的這個達到近年轉型的一個目標嘛電動機車我們會再會同經濟部還有環境部共同來看怎麼樣來促進相關的一個普及率"},{"start":10215.485,"end":10240.272,"text":"對那另外本席這邊也發現我們目前這個大眾運輸工具當中這個電動化最差就是計程車的部分目前全台9萬輛的計程車普及率只有1.5%那其實交通部在110年就有設立一個計程車的一個汰換的要點鼓勵要電動化但是我相對性我們的這個這個雖然有這個規劃但是我們的動作卻很消極"},{"start":10241.152,"end":10255.454,"text":"那像112年就沒有編列相關經費那113跟114只各編列50輛那這樣子如何達成這樣的一個目標而且我們目前的計程車的量那麼多要怎麼樣做這樣的一個環境的一個改善"},{"start":10258.659,"end":10278.511,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下之前在108年或109年大概有這個補助計程車他就換新那都是來源的那最主要是要降低國內這個計程車的車領提高服務的品質那現在針對這個計程車希望能夠達到兩個目的第一個部分就是說因為目前啊"},{"start":10279.011,"end":10301.482,"text":"在今年的話計程車的車領大概平均6.8那以往去啟動這個機制的話大概車領平均到8年那後面剛剛委員所提到的部分就是說未來計程車這個開放一些機制的啟動的部分目前這個部裡面在規劃這個電動計程車的部分那要跟行政院提期間計畫那這個部分的話最主要就是說"},{"start":10302.202,"end":10324.84,"text":"那個計程車要去推這個電動化的部分的話一定要有國產車要有這個商用然後性能比較好的部分那也感謝經濟部在這個去年跟今年的部分也推出了這一個國產化的兩型的這一個電動車那我們現在在觀察這兩型的一個性能之後那目前在研擬這個電動計程車的一個這個這個目標什麼時候可以達成這個有沒有訂立一個KPA的數目"},{"start":10329.344,"end":10338.551,"text":"我們後面的部分的話應該是2030還是2035希望能夠擋到50%我們大概從明年開始就剛才講有那個旗艦計畫會來補助電動計程車在應該是2030會有大概台灣一半以上的計程車希望變成是電動化好 那我想我最後一個問題"},{"start":10352.941,"end":10381.184,"text":"因為我們現在這個小琉球是非常夯的一個旅遊景點我們一年有100多萬的遊客到小琉球來旅遊那他們使用的交通工具都是機車為主那過去我們有喊出一個希望小琉球打造一個低碳島的一個目標但是目前看起來看起來我們目前的這個註冊業者更新了上千台的電動車但是整個島的充電站卻吃有兩個地方了"},{"start":10382.164,"end":10406.71,"text":"這點點都是沒電啊 這車皮要怎麼用這個問題要怎麼去協助做改善這幫我跟我們報告一下目前大概小琉球的電動機車大概以國內南部一個車廠的車種為主要啦那相關充電站的布設大概也是這邊在做這一個布設那這個部分的話我們會同經濟部常話說因為那邊有這個充電站的補助那也有電動機車的一個這個補助而這個是這個目前那"},{"start":10410.231,"end":10438.296,"text":"可以再做看看可以就是說更精進的部分那另外一個部分剛剛這個召委也有提到就是說部裡面今年要來推動這個地攤交通區的部分那目前大概跟這個屏東縣政府大概也有先談過那屏東縣政府大概也有意願就是說針對小琉球這邊希望就是說來提升住院車輛電動化這個部分希望把它列為可以爭取的一個計畫那目前這跟屏東縣政府在演繹當中"},{"start":10439.256,"end":10466.713,"text":"對啦 我也是希望交通部我們都訂了這個目標地毯島也喊了很久但是這個執行面一直都有落差我們希望從這個100多萬的遊客到那邊的一個機車使用不要造成一個環境的一個污染嘛那尤其小琉球又是一個很指標的一個環境我想我們應該更加深做這個區塊做成一個很重要的一個示範島那我們一起希望我們部裡面給我們的縣政府更多的一個力道 謝謝"},{"start":10468.886,"end":10475.049,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝許富奎委員接下來邀請蔡其昌委員發言謝謝主席 請陳次長請陳次長"},{"start":10502.036,"end":10517.004,"text":"市長早安市長今天想跟你討論一下這個我們公車全面電動化的這個議題我看了一下我們這個台灣2050的淨零碳排路徑跟策略規劃12項關鍵戰略計畫之七運具電動化及無碳化這個報告裡面"},{"start":10523.24,"end":10536.907,"text":"我們詳細訂了電動市區公車它的普及率2023年我們當時是12.5所以我們希望在2023年年底達到21然後2025年達到35那現在已經2025年了市長你知道現在的電動市區公車的普及率是多少嗎"},{"start":10550.035,"end":10576.622,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下目前大概就是說113年底的一個市區公車那個電動市區公車的這個總數的部分市區公車加上少數大概將近30輛的這個公務客運的部分的話現在實際上路運行的大概這個1900多輛大概將近這個2000輛那目前去年這個公務總局已經核定給這個地方政府大概也將近2000輛的一個這個車"},{"start":10578.723,"end":10598.15,"text":"如果說以這個商路這個運行然後再加上合併中在這個採購打造的這個部分的話大概將近這個3000輛的一個這個車這個大概是去年的部分那今年要達到35%的部分的話那今年公務總局會在這個按照計畫來這個合併"},{"start":10599.591,"end":10616.291,"text":"那我印象中今年至少會核定1600輛的一個這個東西給各地方政府去分配給相關的市區跟業者來做採購跟這個換薪好所以換言之到本席今天講話的時候我們核定了多少輛實際在運行有多少輛"},{"start":10617.292,"end":10619.875,"text":"實際運行將近2000輛合併的部分將近1400多輛明年在今年2025年達到4600輛佔普及率35%有沒有問題"},{"start":10635.122,"end":10661.005,"text":"我們會朝這個目標來做努力因為我跟委員報告一下現在世家客運業者的產能沒有問題那因為市區客運主體的部分是地方政府在這個我們這個錢分配給地方政府那現在也跟地方政府就是說要趕快這個他們所轄的客運業者按照車頂趕快核定來做汰換所以這中間有一個緩解我們必須要跟地方政府來做一個合作"},{"start":10661.746,"end":10666.508,"text":"所以到去年年底我們的目標是達成的"},{"start":10667,"end":10693.248,"text":"是我目標應該是我如果沒記錯應該是2125什麼25是25那我們大概領牌的跟核定的大概有剛才講到大概約3300輛所以他的那個普及率大概到31.5的樣子所以你們是所以如果再放眼2025我覺得我們應該可以逐步來達成好"},{"start":10694.11,"end":10718.782,"text":"那各縣市我們回到各縣市的比例這個六都當中高雄最高是35.8對不對然後六都的像台中就剩下18桃園就剩下3.4那還有幾個六都以外的縣市是零一台都沒有嗎"},{"start":10720.353,"end":10730.068,"text":"那在分配上面這些包括比例很低的六都比例很低或者公車營業數量幾乎掛零的交通部的看法是什麼"},{"start":10732.865,"end":10761.264,"text":"這邊跟委員報告一下大概就是說確實目前電動公車的數量大概主要集中在六都那最主要就是說六都的市區科運路線跟數量會比較多那這個除了六都之外大概這個市區公車比較多那個數量跟路線數比較多大概就是基隆的那部分那像有一些我舉個例子譬如說像台東花蓮它本身的市區科運沒關係我就列出幾個掛領譬如新竹市"},{"start":10762.746,"end":10785.427,"text":"吉隆市這兩個都零嘛對那目前公務總局在核定給地方政府都優先以這些心事來做這個核定而且核了那核了之後目前就是在催促地方政府督促這些客運業者趕快去採購然後這個領牌商業好那你核你核給他到今天譬如說以2024好了2024你有核給他嗎"},{"start":10788.39,"end":10790.299,"text":"他2024已經過完了嘛 他還是0對不對是這樣嗎"},{"start":10792.728,"end":10818.424,"text":"跟這個我們報告就是說核熱之後那這個坑業者他必須要去做採購那採購車輛有一定的這個打造的這個期間但是在公務局的這個補助要點裡面有限定這個核定完之後多少期間要這個領排所以目前還在這個期間裡面後續這個公總大概每個月都會邀請地方政府來這個盤點大家執行的一個這個進度"},{"start":10821.297,"end":10845.198,"text":"OK,那這樣六都裡面比例很低,譬如說桃園跟新北3.4跟9.8就是你的看起來就目前超標就幾個靠高雄、台南、台北台北也沒有,台北21而已嘛,你以25為基準的話只有台南跟高雄是高的"},{"start":10846.209,"end":10873.035,"text":"那其他甚至桃園只有3.4跟你現在講的2024年達到25這個差距還是很遠嗎那這些縣市是怎麼樣這個大概是這個領排實際在營運的部分那像新北跟桃園的部分的話大概就是去年這個核定他這些這個完成採購商務之後那個比例就會上來台中也是一樣台中也是18也是低於平均水準"},{"start":10875.746,"end":10889.733,"text":"這裡頭顯現的是領牌啦 上路領牌那剛才有特別提到今年或即將在去年或是今年會合的 它的數量就會增加對 那我其實是這樣嘛 因為我是依照你這個嘛你這個2023年21% 2024年25% 2025年要35%這個是領牌還是還是你們已經合訂要補助的"},{"start":10899.942,"end":10918.802,"text":"所以我還是在講領牌嘛我用這個數字合定跟領牌一起算因為我們合定它了以後它就會去打造打造完了它就會領牌所以它其實這一部車所以實際上路的不會低於你們列出來的目標嘛那可不可以把實際上路的目標也給我啦"},{"start":10920.087,"end":10929.737,"text":"我們講電動公車我們是在講空污嘛我們的它的概念是這樣子嘛所以實際上路的才能解決空污嗎"},{"start":10930.779,"end":10958.532,"text":"跟我們報告一下就是說這個35%的目標裡面的話因為這個有營運的有核定的那核定我們的規定最多不能超過9個月因為車輛要打造9個月一定要上路所以這個核定跟整個總數裡面核定大概會有一些數量是有9個月的時間差需要去採購車輛然後完成打造車輛沒關係你就給我一個你現在核定三個數字嘛你核定的"},{"start":10959.252,"end":10968.485,"text":"然後呢實際運行的跟打造中的你要給我嗎再來搭配還有一個就是你的目標嘛我要講的意思就是說"},{"start":10971.291,"end":10990.646,"text":"中央有中央的問題如果說我們今天因為我們沒有任何的強制力就我們面對你這個是2050淨零碳排的路徑這是中央政府施政的目標我們就是讓台灣空氣品質變好我們要淨零碳排嘛"},{"start":10991.286,"end":11010.399,"text":"那進入到裡面有這個運一項一項的很多項目啦那我講的就是我先處理這個我們已經電動巴士我們搞很久了嘛電動公車那電動公車那麼久到底你今天跟你的目標的差距到底在哪裡啦我們台中也又倒一斤了"},{"start":11013.602,"end":11040.721,"text":"這個電動巴士又倒一間去了那我要講的就是說你第一個如果是我們中央在補助或者在法規上面沒有強制力那我們就要想辦法去做好如何可以落實這個目標的法規跟預算但如果法規跟預算都沒有問題那我就要問嘛台中市、新北市、桃園市這三個市是在幹嘛"},{"start":11042.995,"end":11067.951,"text":"市長要有一點責任 不能都沒責任你對於大家一起我們講過淨零碳排是不能遺漏任何一個人更不能遺漏任何一個城市嘛那你搞到剩下3.4我們台中還要10倍啦雖然你現在你講的你說到今年標準中央的標準是25啦要達到25%我們台中也要標準以下"},{"start":11072.076,"end":11096.677,"text":"阿存這9.8到3.4到底是什麼情形嘛到底是因為這個管理商都不配合說我們這個管理商空氣比較壞沒關係我們這裡的人肺比較健康所以我們這裡空氣比較壞沒關係我們要有方法嘛阿不然這個又要罵了 每次都地方政府汙染都說中庸都每天就中庸啦這數據在這裡嘛 我要說的就是說"},{"start":11098.666,"end":11122.4,"text":"你中央 如果說今天我們補助款就沒漏氣你們沒有核定給人家說你中央都沒有給我補助還是說我們的法規就是一大堆問題中央沒有立定這個法 相關的法規所以我地方政府無所適從沒有辦法遵守那中央就要檢討但如果我這些都做了你地方政府數據出來還給我搞一個18 9.8 3.4"},{"start":11127.189,"end":11142.444,"text":"這些縣市首長 縣市政府難道不需要出來講講話嗎我們每天在檢討台灣的空屋這些縣市首長不需要出來空屋團體也應該去找他們一下啊 數字管理啊為什麼這些縣市首長不配合啊原因到底是什麼啊"},{"start":11143.459,"end":11170.898,"text":"所以本席是站在我們要釐清問題啦事情不能大家瞎貨嘛到底是怎樣可以我們都有訂定我們的計畫裡面都有目標每一年要做到哪裡都很清楚啊到底為什麼有一些人他就可以這樣子你現在講數據好像剛剛你跟我講我是不知道你跟我說達標嘛好啦我就姑且相信達標啊達標我們以前檢討過的高雄做到35.8"},{"start":11174.676,"end":11190.454,"text":"也有3.4%的這是什麼情形所以市長時間到了因為主席不好意思給他每次都耽擱太多時間本席希望你們好好的檢討一下到底這些地方政府是怎樣"},{"start":11192.185,"end":11218.45,"text":"委員簡單回應一下有關這個電動車的推動的這樣的一個情形我們大概有責請公務局邀請地方政府來相關的去檢討那如何來加速這個地方來審議那另外一個有關這個各縣市的最後的領牌的情形這個我們也會請公務局必要時這個定期來公布相關的一個結果市長這個要加油一下這個不可以這樣子"},{"start":11219.35,"end":11238.148,"text":"這個有些才三點多,要靠過,如果平均達到那個標準,這個我覺得不合理啦大家如果都差一點點沒關係,有些人只有一點,但不能差距太遠嘛差距太遠,公民團體上街遊行說空汙不好空汙不好每次都找那些特定那幾個人,這樣有利"},{"start":11240.441,"end":11261.673,"text":"所以大家數據管理我沒有任何意見我也沒有特別去強調哪一個縣市是哪一個黨我就拿數據出來講話大家理性一點來討論為什麼這些人不做他們到底有什麼問題什麼毛病為什麼不做如果是中央的我們要虛心檢討要趕快改進如果我中央錢也到了法規也到了你地方不做"},{"start":11262.793,"end":11285.723,"text":"不做就個人造業個人擔啊不能每次都找中央算帳這哪有道理好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝蔡齊昌委員接下來邀請何欣淳委員發言好謝謝昭偉我們請這個陳次長請陳次長"},{"start":11294.95,"end":11309.817,"text":"市長早我想現在是元旦剛過一月份那今年的農曆年特別的早大概在三個禮拜就過年了所以我關心的是我們春節的疏運雖然大家會想說"},{"start":11310.737,"end":11313.941,"text":"所以理論上應該不會有交通打結的問題可是我想我們有那麼多次的每年的經驗告訴我們這個春節年前這個大家要返鄉過年這是台灣人的人情味跟過年的氣氛一定要回家團圓"},{"start":11331.44,"end":11342.965,"text":"所以春節前這個一定是我們疏運的一個最大最大的一個挑戰對不對所以我就要請教一下我們現在到底準備好了沒有這個首先先從高鐵來講高鐵今天也有人來吧"},{"start":11348.766,"end":11371.971,"text":"高鐵高鐵我一再的強調從去年的中秋節發生了台中站發生了這個人龍排了又排繞了好幾圈以後呢高鐵每次都跟我說他面對年連假啦面對這個重大節日一定都有所準備但是呢我們又看到媒體有報導高鐵台中站在今年的跨年還是什麼還是一團亂"},{"start":11377.461,"end":11399.306,"text":"跨年爆倉人滿為患上面有媒體報導有拍下的照片整個車廂站滿的人站滿的人甚至還影響到搭乘高鐵的旅客出入的通行所以有對號座的旅客甚至走不進去"},{"start":11400.547,"end":11421.463,"text":"那這個東西我只是就提出來希望市長能夠好好的來要求高鐵那我們接下來的春節的疏運能不能做好市長你覺得這是問題嗎為什麼每一次都有每一次的挑戰每一次都有每一次的被人民抱怨的地方"},{"start":11423.717,"end":11443.963,"text":"跟委員做一個說明有關這個今年的春節也是誠如委員講的會有很多的旅客在台中站所以昨天其實部長就召開了相關的一個春節輸運的一個相關的會議在那個會議裡頭也特別針對高鐵台中站的輸運的情形有做相關的一個指示"},{"start":11444.543,"end":11472.592,"text":"當然就是要該會員的他們也有相關的SOP的機制所以希望他們一定要落實那落實之外呢其實更希望他們能夠找到這個在他們的輸運裡頭所存在的一個風險針對那個風險來研議更加精進的一個做法那另外一方面就是說當高鐵的相關的旅客都已經就是說在輸運能量上有限的情況下交通部相關的單位譬如說台鐵或國道客運"},{"start":11473.152,"end":11487.34,"text":"如何來加入資源這個也是在這個昨天開會裡頭也有一些相關的一個討論而且也請不管是這個鐵道局或者是台高公司都希望他們能夠去研議相關的一個方案"},{"start":11488.32,"end":11506.69,"text":"我希望還有三個禮拜的時間我想很多的SOP跟這個因應方式措施都可以再精進再調整的更好更周全我不希望說以高鐵為例去年中秋發生的那個問題然後解決了然後現在跨年又發生了一個"},{"start":11507.811,"end":11528.247,"text":"沒有辦法因應的一個狀況然後又惹民怨那如果這些每一次只要碰到連假或是碰到重大節日就爆出一個沒有辦法因應的狀況的情況之下會讓國人對於我們的這個高鐵是我們這個交通運具裡面的最高規格的也是最快速的一個鐵路鐵道軌道運輸結果還是會發生這樣的事情那我覺得這個會有損國人對我們的信任度跟支持度這第一點"},{"start":11536.573,"end":11560.175,"text":"那除了高鐵之外當然我們就要講高鐵之外剛剛次長有講到的台鐵國道準備好了沒有還有機場尤其這個今年的年假有高達9天我預計往前推跟往後推大概出國的人潮會大爆滿以這個上次我們媒體也有"},{"start":11562.357,"end":11575.248,"text":"講過這個現在啊在疫後啊這個出國人數大爆發或者是我們的國外的要來進來台灣的觀光旅客我看看今天的新聞有寫到也會預計會破千萬人次喔那機場"},{"start":11576.869,"end":11598.799,"text":"我們的機場不管是桃園機場台中機場或者是小港機場那重中之重我想應該大家會覺得是桃園機場會大塞車尤其呢光是安檢或是整個動線的一個安排那沒有辦法去化所以呢這個我們機場現在在還有三個禮拜可以來因應調整這個春節這個出國跟來台灣的觀光客那我們有沒有準備好"},{"start":11605.604,"end":11606.853,"text":"那個董事長來做說明一下"},{"start":11608.26,"end":11635.14,"text":"是非常謝謝委員機場在最近曾經發生過一次塞車那一次塞車的事件事實上它有兩個原因一個是旅客量增加航班就是航機的量體是增加的沒錯所以同樣的一班飛機帶來旅客量進出的旅客量是增加那問題出在兩個關鍵點一個是安檢一個是這個查驗的問題那安檢的部分第一個是動線上它的設備不能損壞"},{"start":11636.201,"end":11650.112,"text":"因為目前我們上一次的這個賽車事件是九條的安全線裡面有一條臨時故障所以那個部分我們已經請行警局要特別去教講做維護所以要講請行警局要特別春節的因應措施不能出錯對"},{"start":11652.193,"end":11675.42,"text":"這兩天我們已經開了兩次會另外一個是人力不足的問題行警那邊已經向上面求助所以在警政署那邊他們已經加派了57個人力多少人力 警政署57位的人力因為每一條安檢線的配置人力如果不到4位的話都有可能會作業上比較慢他們已經知道這個問題的嚴重性院裡面也非常關心這個問題所以會加強把這個問題克服掉"},{"start":11678.121,"end":11699.327,"text":"是喔董事長你剛剛現在講的大家都在聽喔我們期待這一次的春節在機場桃園機場的旅運是一個順暢的喔就算會塞也不能塞個好幾個小時啊人潮無法去化那甚至會影響到這個航班的起飛啊是不是"},{"start":11699.747,"end":11716.432,"text":"是所以機場公司一起服務的幾個單位CIQS單位都有責任我們會協調所以橫向跟垂直的一個溝通協調拜託要真的是精進而且真的是能夠到位啦好不好那台鐵跟國道呢"},{"start":11717.678,"end":11736.288,"text":"報告委員來台鐵報告委員謝謝委員的關切我們現在台鐵目前已經加開了302班就委員這裡所提到的運能會增加7.3%那我們目前持續掌握我們的訂票狀況跟還有我們的決策支援系統所以我們預計在1月10號還會再加開24列次讓整體運能提升到9.2%"},{"start":11741.03,"end":11756.517,"text":"那針對委員關切的這個台中的這個部分我們現在目前在第二波加班我們還會加開五列次的台中到台北的一個直達車那兩個小時內就可以從中部區的民眾就可以到台北那台北也可以回到台中"},{"start":11757.458,"end":11774.538,"text":"對來回這個部分我們也有在處理那我們跟高鐵也有配合高鐵的在台中烏日站的應變小組我們也會橫向加強聯繫隨時來因應處理有可能高鐵可能產生的外溢的一個效果以上好那國道呢"},{"start":11777.211,"end":11799.348,"text":"跟委員報告國道部分我們是跟國道公警的部分已經有合作那我們最大的風險是事故事故的部分那我們在事故的一個防止我們國道在國道系統還有銜接的其他的快速道路系統那尤其我們國道1號國道3號跟74號是中部地區最容易有瓶頸塞車的一個路段"},{"start":11801.019,"end":11820.438,"text":"對就尤其是初二初三初四這三天因為我們大概就全就是年假的部分就這三天全國那個全年當中就是三天會超過一百三十萬百萬車公里以上的車次那我們這一段的部分的話我們會重點一個看守就是說在這裡面有任何一個狀況都會馬上去做一個處理"},{"start":11822.062,"end":11842.034,"text":"你們現在對媒體是說有七大疏導措施嘛對不對對我們就希望是說對重點的瓶頸的這個路段跟時間跟空間的一個分流啊主要就是這個部分啊希望這民眾用路人可以來配合的不要大家就集中一個時間多集中一個一個一個時段進去的話那當然就會塞如果說做一個分流的話他會比較順暢一些"},{"start":11843.035,"end":11871.549,"text":"是啦我們每年都是這樣子宣導啦但是每年都還是會有塞車的現象啦那我們只能期待不要塞太久啊是在可以容忍可以容忍的一個這個塞車時段如果沒有事故的話就應該是不會塞太久那另外一個是我們1968年所以你預期今年的初二初三初四你剛剛講的這個運量最高的這三天裡面如果沒有交通事故的話不會塞太久"},{"start":11872.89,"end":11898.445,"text":"還是會塞但不會塞太久1968會提供完整的資訊大家可以來多參考那個入房資訊市長我還是希望雖然昨天部長有主持但是接下來我們還有將近三個禮拜的時間我希望海陸空通通要做好這個春節這個年假的一個疏運的一個完整完善的一個因應措施"},{"start":11898.985,"end":11922.882,"text":"我覺得還是要給國人一個信任信任我們的政府部門在交通這個區塊在過年大家歡喜過年的這個時刻不會因為塞車不會因為上不了飛機不會因為錯過班機不會因為在高鐵上不了車坐不了位子那少了這個過年的興致啦所以我覺得這個對台灣人民來講"},{"start":11923.903,"end":11942.869,"text":"春節 過年很重要的啦 好不好 市長我們大家一起努力啦 我也期許啦 我相信你們做得到啦 是 我跟委員報告 除了剛才講說昨天開了 應該是部長開第一次會議啊 部長也說啊 這會議不是只開一次啊所以後續呢 我們會來追蹤各單位辦理的情形 務必要落實執行 好 謝謝好 謝謝何新松委員好 接下來邀請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":11962.191,"end":11988.611,"text":"社會主席麻煩有請次長以及我們台積公司董事長楊董事長委員好這個事情我追蹤了很久我們國家要推動自駕車"},{"start":11990.33,"end":12017.596,"text":"政策方向上面我是高度肯認但問題是我們在推動自駕車的過程裡面從中央政府到地方政府撒了大把的銀子搞了一個詐騙的廠商來搞我公開點名過很多次就是李立搞這個詐騙的廠商來搞搞到從政府這邊拿了一堆錢一事無成"},{"start":12020.512,"end":12034.023,"text":"現在最新的受害人是我們淘擠三航廈我直訊了很多次啊我確認一下現在淘擠三航廈的旅客運輸系統工程啊淘擠公司是不是解約了已經在12月19號正式解約12月19號解約嗎好 那現在問題來了解約是一回事啊當初怎麼審核的啊"},{"start":12051.673,"end":12055.055,"text":"浪費的時間誰要負責任一年多以前先給這個爛廠商搞不下去了被抓包了匆匆解約這個事情交通部要不要追究責任"},{"start":12073.86,"end":12099.521,"text":"還是交通部覺得 啊沒關係啦 算了啦風涼到了啦 現在解約就OK啦來 交通部 表達政策立場要不要追究責任我想我跟委員做說明這一個標案的最終的一個結果呢我想我們會請淘擠公司去檢討做相關的一個檢討要多久呃 是就請淘擠公司檢討要多久交通部要有立場啦"},{"start":12102.43,"end":12131.494,"text":"檢討要多久 我想我們會進速請淘擠公司來做相關的一個檢討進速對不起啊 形容詞我聽不懂啊什麼叫進速兩個禮拜夠不夠我想 兩個禮拜夠不夠委員我們在一個月內提出 好一個月內請他們檢討 我下會期喔我一定會持續的追而且這件事情上面我會反映在預算的凍結案之上絕對讓交通部很有感"},{"start":12133.985,"end":12161.395,"text":"台灣什麼時候這麼重要的事情可以因為政商關係良好找一個爛廠商啊連淘機都給他做搞了半天發現搞不出來沒有辦法了解約納稅人要看到的不是只有檢討一個月內的檢討報告就責名單一併交出來"},{"start":12162.58,"end":12184.15,"text":"救責名單一併交出來那否則的話就在調查報告寫清楚啊經過我們的交通部全盤的考慮沒有任何的人需要為這件事情負責任有勇氣就白紙黑字把這句話寫出來第二件事情解約以前"},{"start":12185.663,"end":12197.311,"text":"林佳龍跑去找標案的兩個事主一個叫吳定發一個叫李佳如結果連廖子晨都找來了找來出來喬事情交通部有沒有掌握不是很清楚那你們就問一下你們的前部長嘛關他什麼事出來喬什麼要喬什麼要喬什麼"},{"start":12213.415,"end":12241.53,"text":"連吳定發都找來李佳如也找來廖子誠也找來找來喬什麼喬解決方案這個事情交通部都不知道完全不知道我想交通部不清楚 是淘汰是不是知道淘汰完全不知道完全不知道這個事情嘛好 下一步目前給廠商撥了多少錢"},{"start":12244.4,"end":12272.141,"text":"目前給廠商的金額不多我們目前正在辦理結算那已經通知承包商是承運公司不是履歷公司是是是所謂給廠商的錢不多是多少這個帳等一下我查一下馬上跟你回報好什麼時候要回來這個要經過這個法定的結算程序那這個部分結算完了以後我們會該給的會給但是不該給的我們一毛錢都不會給什麼事都沒有做出來什麼叫做該給的該給他什麼"},{"start":12274.636,"end":12301.481,"text":"延宕了一年多一事無成還有該給的喔這個要按照合約的規定來辦理跟採購法的規定來辦理沒有關係啊你們按照合約按照採購法你們認為什麼該給什麼要追回來什麼時候追回來給我一個清楚的書面報告好不好因為在這邊口頭講的啦我老實講很空泛啦不夠特定也不夠具體"},{"start":12302.813,"end":12328.661,"text":"白紙黑字給我答案這件事情我一定追到底我一定追到底這件事情不能就這樣算否則這個國家重大的公共工程建設根本就不是靠能力也不是靠專業是靠政商關係是看到後面政治上面的八股夠不夠強哪有這回事的我要說一次"},{"start":12329.963,"end":12353.089,"text":"不是解約就算囉檢討就責後面錢要回來的部分後面錢要回來的部分請交通部請交通部大力的督促淘氣公司這件事情要做完整可以嗎沒有問題好謝謝黃國昌委員接下來邀請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":12365.135,"end":12368.878,"text":"我們來討論近溫室氣體排放的議題我們也看到2021年溫室氣體排放的量是2.7535萬公噸"},{"start":12391.797,"end":12418.072,"text":"那其中運輸的部分我們來看看運輸的碳排量大概是3546萬公噸所以他佔總排量大概是12%2022年呢是大概佔了13%所以在這樣的情況之下我們根據經濟部2022年的這個燃料燃燒的二氧化碳排放的統計跟分析裡頭他報告告訴我們"},{"start":12419.333,"end":12443.34,"text":"他們預計要設定的這個碳費的費率是每公噸10塊美金10元美金那所以每公噸大概要付費的方式來計算台鐵我們自己台鐵的這個排碳成本是最高我們大概要付1.2億多那麼高鐵是第二個要將近8390萬的這個金額那所以本市要請教次長"},{"start":12447.621,"end":12467.667,"text":"在我們運輸業雖然他沒有列入在首波的這個碳費徵收的名單當中但是他會受到電力因為電力有納進來電力業的一個徵收碳費所增加的營運成本那所以現在又要快春節了大家很緊張又通膨"},{"start":12468.567,"end":12488.838,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下勢必會增加成本所以本席要請教在這樣的一個情況之下我們是不是會調漲台鐵跟高鐵的這個票價請做說明我跟委員報告目前並沒有調整台鐵跟高鐵的一個票價目前"},{"start":12489.158,"end":12514.829,"text":"好我非常的歡喜聽到你聽到民意的聲音剛剛特別也講因為通膨的原因所以這個部分在現階段是不宜但是我還是要提醒因為我們已經走到跟世界接軌所以這個議題你也務請要第一名的我們的台鐵要未來要怎麼去因應跟高鐵怎麼因應方案要去研擬"},{"start":12516.212,"end":12530.11,"text":"我是不是可以跟委員簡單做說明一下有關這個台鐵或高鐵因為他是一個算是在經濟部來看他是屬於用電大概800千瓦以上的所謂的用電大戶"},{"start":12530.811,"end":12535.653,"text":"所以呢他大概要做一些深度的節能的一個計劃雖然交通業沒有列入在第一波但是電力業就已經列入在第一波"},{"start":12547.019,"end":12570.733,"text":"那我再跟委員做說明一下那也是一樣有關這個環境部在做剛才講碳費的一個徵收是海鐵高鐵並沒有納入沒有錯但是呢他們是有需有要求類似像這個排碳量2.5噸以上的要做一些盤查所以要儘速去盤查那從碳盤查以後如何再去做碳減量"},{"start":12575.596,"end":12594.711,"text":"這非常重要因為它是一個循環而且是相關雖然沒有列入 交通業者沒有列入第一波但是第一波的向下電力已經有了所以你必須要謹慎已知好 接下來本校請教海業的部分海業的部分每排放的溫室氣體超過10億噸那麼全球的總排量是3%"},{"start":12600.755,"end":12620.702,"text":"日本海事協會他們就出估在2030年替代燃料生產成本將高於傳統燃料的部分是1.5倍到4倍尤其在電子甲烷跟電子甲醇的部分是在生產成本最貴的燃料所以會大量的投資使"},{"start":12621.542,"end":12647.17,"text":"我們的船舶達到脫碳目標這個是世界的標準而且世界的走向而且是必要做的所以在這樣情況之下我們可以看出全球海運對於淨零排放的這個浪潮我們沒有辦法置身事外了所以從2024年開始歐盟的ETS將歐盟已經將我們的行業"},{"start":12649.171,"end":12671.627,"text":"這個來納入 所以在這種情況之下 台灣在海運方面 我們碰到了非常緊張的事情 第一個 人才短缺 第一個第二個呢 人才流失所以本席要請教 詹仁甫你要怎麼樣去協助 培養人才 留住人才 讓海運的近鄰轉型 它能夠很順暢的跟國際接軌 請做說明"},{"start":12675.393,"end":12698.442,"text":"我簡單說明再請葉局長 有關節能減碳的人才培育我的了解 航港局大概有相關的一個訓練計畫至於說因應國際的潮流對於使用不管是甲醇也好 或LNG的傳播也好我們都有相關的一個規劃 那我們的航商也有相關的一個因應"},{"start":12699.402,"end":12721.964,"text":"你們有相關的因應 相關的規劃 但是業者還是很緊張所以我希望要能夠接軌 你將書面資料給本席你們怎麼樣的方案去培養人才 去留住人才 怎麼樣協助我想這個是我們國家非常重要的生產力的關鍵決勝者這個非常重要 這個海運那最後一個議題 本席請教次長"},{"start":12722.765,"end":12729.638,"text":"未來高鐵要經過高雄站延伸到屏東在12月28 新聞稿正式公佈 對不對"},{"start":12731.348,"end":12752.799,"text":"是不是 這個大家滿心的歡喜因為我們也希望高鐵都能夠更加的暢通所以因此在我們台中在11月15號你們交通部 鐵道局給本席我們要求去可行性評估我們台中站是不是要增加一站"},{"start":12753.399,"end":12769.141,"text":"因為我們現在台中整個烏日高鐵站下來整個塞車塞得非常的嚴重尤其要上74線到要轉國三的這個部分上下班時間半個鐘頭算是正常的但是它不應當如此"},{"start":12769.742,"end":12799.342,"text":"所以是不是應該在台中要來設一個多設一站來紓解相關因為現在我們台中的人口已經超過286萬人而且急劇的在增加交通樞紐都塞的這麼嚴重的情況之下交通部必須鐵道局你必須要去做可行性的評估台中站我強烈要求台中站鐵路台這個高鐵必須要增加一站請做說明"},{"start":12803.525,"end":12825.743,"text":"包委員這個有一些系統技術上的問題要做確認我想我們另外再跟委員辦公室這邊來做詳細的說好你現在這麼說本席要告訴你台中市是全台第二大城市而且我們急劇在增加蓬勃發展所以務必要拜託你們去做可行性評估好不好"},{"start":12827.256,"end":12849.677,"text":"這非常重要你們去評估可行性評估既然高雄到屏東都可以這麼做我們台中更需要做加一站做可行性評估好不好要請你趕快做可行性評估方案我們再來討論朝這個方向來努力台中站高鐵站再加一站的可行性評估"},{"start":12850.117,"end":12877.428,"text":"我們先把可行性評估做出來好 你們預估大概多久時間會做出來呢這個可能要沒關係多久時間你給我一個時間就好是這個應該要花一點時間我們會確認再跟我們半年還是多久沒關係你告訴我還是一年可行性評估至少一年以上好那我們原則上定一年可行性評估出來台中站高鐵再加一站可行性評估給我們一個方向好嗎謝謝謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":12880.933,"end":12897.421,"text":"好謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來邀請黃建豪委員發言好謝謝趙偉那我們就先請這個交通部次長陳彥博次長請陳次長"},{"start":12906.904,"end":12921.545,"text":"市長好,我們今天要討論能源減碳的問題核心問題當然是我們現在台灣多數的車輛它的能源怎麼樣使用我想最重要如果大家都是繼續開油車"},{"start":12924.048,"end":12949.463,"text":"你要做到淨零碳排你要能源轉型是很困難的那如果電車或是油電混合車的比例提升那他才有可能性去往這個淨零碳排路線來走那也看到說從近年來這個整個車輛的這個佔比來講汽車這目前油車的比例扣掉電車跟油電混合車之後油車的比例還是高達大約92%那在機車的部分油車的比例也更高94.7%所以我想問一下"},{"start":12950.902,"end":12967.095,"text":"在目前我們看到2023年的整個電動機車跟汽車的銷售其實也是相對來下滑的狀況下面不知道交通部有沒有評估說這個傳統油車什麼時候才有可能真的在市場上逐漸退場哪一年我們的電車數量才有可能去超過油車你們有算過嗎"},{"start":12970.241,"end":12997.413,"text":"這個部分我大概跟委員報告一下按照目前戰略期的一個目標如果以這個電動小客車的部分大概2040我們目標是希望市售比達到百分之百這一個電動化那到2040這一個時期的話我們大概推估在這個市場就是說我們使用上面的這個總量的話大概電動車會佔百分之四十那燃油車可能還是這個略高一點"},{"start":12997.953,"end":13006.03,"text":"市長那我問你就是說你們現在講的是推估那推估你們什麼政策目標就是你們提什麼樣的政策才能夠達到這個數字因為按照目前的數字看起來"},{"start":13007.233,"end":13033.761,"text":"你的油車就佔了90%對不對那其實電車或油電車已經上市一段時間了好幾年了那到目前為止它的比例還是這麼高那到底是哪些政策可能是關稅嗎還是其他的燃料稅因為燃料稅也要增的嘛也要還增燃料稅所以電車也要增燃料稅了所以你是稅制上給它優惠還是價格上給它優惠還是什麼樣的政策給它優惠我舉個例子過去台中市曾經推過台中市的電動車路外停車免費跟這個充電樁免費"},{"start":13036.482,"end":13065.74,"text":"當然現在也要收費了可是因為過去的所謂停車免費跟充電裝免費的結果並沒有有效的改善說什麼電車的比例所以我今天要問的是說你今天今天我們討論的是陸海空的這個淨營碳排那汽車如果油車的比例還這麼高的話那後續交通部會提出什麼樣的對策還是你要直接要求廠商不能再生產油車我看這也不太可能啦所以到底要什麼樣的政策來鼓勵消費者去轉換他的使用習慣你們有做過這件事情的評估嗎"},{"start":13066.58,"end":13092,"text":"有跟委員報告一下這個部分的話大概就是說從這個供給跟需求兩個層面來做處理那剛剛委員這邊所顯現的部分的話大概是就是說電動車輛佔總數車輛的一個這個比例那目標上面要就是說目前這個電子目標是從新車市售比就是說先從車輛新車的供給要先出來"},{"start":13094.682,"end":13118.22,"text":"這個當這個車輛供給的這個比如說車型的一個數量電動車大於燃油車的一個這個部分的話那就是一個關鍵的這個轉捩點所以第一個部分的話大概就是說那這個目前的階段是著重在三個部分第一個部分就是說讓電動車的車型數量越多越這個趕快出來那第二個部分就是國產的這個"},{"start":13121.123,"end":13146.019,"text":"這個電動車目前已經有了因為我想國產跟進口差別就在這個價格那這個大部分這個比較這個就是說這個比較市場可以接受的部分我相信這個國產車還是佔比較大的一個比例那在這個需求端的部分是透過布設完這個充足完善的充電環境因為有車就必須要這個充電那如果說這個環境這個比較完善的話就能夠那個那"},{"start":13147.6,"end":13171.637,"text":"到這個下一個這個階段的一個部分那目前就有一些因為電動跟燃油這個相差的就是一個能源效率的這個部分那目前這個能源署這邊也在修這些相關能耗辦法管理的規定剛聽起來其實你們的目標是先做到供給面新車的數量新車的款式電車要比油車的款式選擇來的更多嘛好那你們有什麼時候要做到這件事情"},{"start":13173.151,"end":13189.477,"text":"目前沒有啊目前都一直在這個鼓勵啦像這個國產車的部分那個經濟部廠發出這邊也投入資源包括國內已經有這個我知道我現在問你說什麼時候嘛你們有總有期程嘛預計的就是今天大家訂出2050淨零碳排的這個政策目標"},{"start":13190.197,"end":13213.082,"text":"那我先問你說那好那你提供新的車款出來那你剛剛提到我們先不管現有的跟新車的比例因為現在按照現有比例來講的確要追上很困難那你至少先做到說我新車的比例是電動車電車的比例或油電火車的比例超越了油車嘛是不是這樣子剛剛的意思是這樣嘛那這件事情這個政策你們預計有什麼時候要達成你總要有一個期程啊"},{"start":13214.674,"end":13229.288,"text":"這個部分的話原則上就是說目前這個2040之後這個市場上基本上就不允許這個燃油車在販售了因為2040市售比百之百就是市場販售的全部都是這個電動的一個這個車輛"},{"start":13232.051,"end":13258.052,"text":"那當然我跟委員報告就是說在這個目前就是一路的一個這個過程當中可能到2030這個或2035以後當市場這個市售的新車這個達到80%的時候那相對的各車廠或是進口這個燃油油的部分可能在這個管制的這個力道上就會有配耗時間有限喔那我再問一個問題剛剛也提到一個事情燃料稅的部分"},{"start":13258.972,"end":13272.524,"text":"過去當然汽油車有燃料的問題那電車你的燃料稅一下要新的政策也要準備來整個電車來課的燃料稅那你這樣子的政策目標跟你要推動淨寧碳排溫推動電動車的政策是背道而馳"},{"start":13275.461,"end":13298.279,"text":"跟我們報告一下 基本上就是說這個目前啦就是說在稅費的部分車輛主要就是使用牌照稅跟這個棄產費的部分那為鼓勵電動車的部分以往大概就是說使用牌照稅跟這個棄產費大概這個免徵那我印象中應該財政部使用牌照稅是屬於地方稅大概就是應該115年開始"},{"start":13302.141,"end":13313.909,"text":"115年會開始就是說那個使用排照水的部分就沒有在這個優惠但是漆藍費的部分目前我們估算起來原則上還不實質影響所以原則上還是會維持一個階段的這個免徵"},{"start":13317.751,"end":13338.157,"text":"免徵嗎好謝謝好再接下來下一張下一張那這題討論完了那就要問一下這一樣我想在路上跑的機車類似機車東西很多種我提到電動代步車電動輪椅電動輔助自行車微型電動二輪車跟電動滑板車跟電動平衡車好這幾種我想問一下市長跟市長你們知道哪一些可以上人行道哪一些可以在車道哪一些在自行車道嗎"},{"start":13340.99,"end":13351.578,"text":"這裡面的部分的話大概基本上都是屬於有三類啦這個像這個電動輔助自行車跟微型電動二輪車是屬於這個自行車的慢車"},{"start":13356.061,"end":13378.168,"text":"那這個電動滑板車跟電動平衡車這個是也是屬於慢車但是屬於這個自立就是個人行動的一個這個器具沒關係 市長因為時間時間不夠我覺得可以看下一節給大家解答這是我們辦公室爬梳了各項法令之後得出的結論我看一下答案應該是對的啦如果錯有錯你們要糾正我們"},{"start":13379.268,"end":13405.093,"text":"電動代步車 電動輪椅 電動輔助自行車只能這三個可以在人行道上面那能夠上車 只能上自行車道的只有這個電動輔助自行車跟微型電動二輪車都可以在自行車道那進行混合車道的是輔助自行車跟微型電動二輪車那很多人在使用的電動滑板車跟電動平衡車這個是連人行道依法它是連人行道都不能去的但是我們路上還是常常看到所以我要問的是說這些"},{"start":13406.453,"end":13429.289,"text":"電動的類型我們當然希望大家不要去騎油車嘛希望能換個交通方式那這一些這六種市面上常見的載具那到底你的交通法規哪些能夠上路哪些不能夠上路那這同時也配合經濟部嘛它既然能夠生產能夠合法的販售那到底哪些能夠合法的上路我想一般民眾也是搞不清楚啊"},{"start":13429.989,"end":13438.968,"text":"所以要問一下這個道理交通部對這是一個看法你要怎麼樣整合還是說一樣區分這麼多細節有的可以上人行道有的上自行車道有的可以上車道"},{"start":13440.063,"end":13467.398,"text":"這部分我跟委員報告一下這幾類的部分車種分類非常明確那我簡單講就是說電動代步車或輪椅的這個部分的話這個是屬於行人輔具的部分它是跟行人結合在一起基本上就是說是這個可以走在這一個人行道有人行道就走這個右線這個人行道沒有人行道像一般行人的話就要靠這個路邊那另外一個部分就是說電動輔助自行車跟微型電動二輪車的這個部分的話"},{"start":13468.899,"end":13491.85,"text":"一般原則上是走混合車道那如果說這個自行車道地方政府有特別允許他跟這個腳踏自行車這個這個並用的話那原則上就看這個主管機關的一個這個開放或者是這個管制那有關於電動滑板車跟電動平行車的部分現行處罰條例已經有開放但是因為這個牽涉到每個地方"},{"start":13492.25,"end":13519.712,"text":"他的這個人行道空間或者是車道空間所以必須要由地方政府他去檢討他有訂一些相關規格跟使用規範之後那就可以按照地方政府市長 我要跟市長講為什麼今天特別提出來就是因為剛剛市長也不太會講這變成又回到地方政府了但是這個販售是全國性都在販售所以到底我哪些車在某些地方好像可以上人行道我換一個城市之後反而不能使用在某個城市會被開罰每個城市不會被開罰"},{"start":13520.433,"end":13536.163,"text":"所以我是希望說交通部在這種各種這個債據上面能夠有比較一致化的標準不要說就像你剛剛提到有的地方自行車車道可以開放有的地方人行道可以開放那沒有人行道的地方怎麼辦呢沒有人行道的地方社會開放嗎因為實務上"},{"start":13539.125,"end":13556.396,"text":"我國人行道就是建設不完整嘛所以在很多地方的話他在這個城市他可以使用可能滑板車他在人行道上誰使用他到別的地方去因為這個巷子裡面沒有滑板車那如果被檢舉了算誰的所以這部分我今天提出來希望說你們好好的去統整一下我們各項的這種個人債據這種雙兩輪的這種債據他這種電動輔具這種電動債據他到底的適用的法律標準"},{"start":13562.401,"end":13583.909,"text":"把它明確一點那也要考量到現實你不能說就提到不能全部都有地方政府嘛因為我們講不同城市不同城市的狀況可以嗎市長我想委員剛才還是一樣啦尤其是行人輔具這個還是比較有地方性但是委員剛才特別提到如何讓地方能夠在設置上他也能夠有一些規範或遵循"},{"start":13584.429,"end":13605.025,"text":"所以我剛才有跟市長講了我們大概會去朝你一個類似像使用指引來供地方政府來設置這樣的一個或規範這些這個器具或載具如何使用的一個規範後續書面報告再給我們我們再瞭解一下好不好好 市長謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝黃建豪委員接下來邀請廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":13619.83,"end":13622.974,"text":"要請我們陳次長經濟部吳副署長電力公司溫總工程師稍等一下"},{"start":13651.997,"end":13675.017,"text":"三位好 這個最近我的辦公室有收到這個民眾的澄清可能跟經濟部還有電力公司比較有關係就是說有女生就是家庭主婦會來跟辦公室反映說老公他老公最近常常晚上9點多10點多跑出門然後該怎麼辦你知道是什麼原因嗎兩位"},{"start":13676.894,"end":13682.797,"text":"老公晚上九點多十點多出門然後過了一陣子可能過了一個小時兩個小時才回來電力公司是不是跟今天的主題有關係啦就是這個電動車我們現在進行的部分就是電動車那電動車我們台電是不是有針對電動車的電表有專門的時間電價"},{"start":13705.251,"end":13709.177,"text":"報告是是那你知道尖離峰的大概電價大概是多少跟多少嗎因為我不是這方面的主管離峰大概是3塊4塊啦尖峰是多少"},{"start":13722.674,"end":13741.571,"text":"12塊大概12塊所以說我們有很多的電動車主因為我們的電譬如說我們去第三方快充的時候那廠商他一定也是推時間電價嘛他也是尖峰的時候可能又收比較貴的錢他不可能虧本嘛那離峰的時候他就推很便宜的價格所以說我們現在很多電動車的車主很困擾就是說"},{"start":13743.593,"end":13764.723,"text":"我們因為廠商就是這樣子定價所以我們常常就是必須在冬季九點過後夏季是十點過後那才能夠用比較便宜的價格去充電我們中油過去可能這個油價調漲的時候隔天要漲個兩角三角就大排長龍了你知道消費者的這個心情就是這樣子"},{"start":13765.883,"end":13786.99,"text":"對多數的這個電動車主來講的話我充了一次電我可能就省了兩三百塊我當然晚一點出門啊 晚一點就充就好為什麼要在尖峰時刻充這也符合我們台電的精神但是對於我們國家要推動電動車來說它其實是一個健康的一種電價因為我們要去開電車要去補充能源的時候"},{"start":13788.97,"end":13811.649,"text":"我們當然是希望越便利越好我們不希望要在這種很離縫的時段去衝那這個都是我們的電動車組會去考量的我可以後續請我們的經濟部然後邀請我們的可能交通部或者是電力公司兩個單位的立場會不一樣電力公司當然是因為有這個用電接木的問題但是交通部的立場應該是推動電動車那當然兩個中間就會有一個這個"},{"start":13816.402,"end":13826.704,"text":"這個目標不一樣的時候那就可能有一個政策性不一樣的部分可不可以請台電公司去檢討一下電動車電表這樣子的一個這麼過大價差的一個合理性可不可以"},{"start":13830.016,"end":13846.526,"text":"是謝謝委員我們回去他會檢討但是目前看起來就是為了解決這個尖峰的尖離峰的一些問題尖離峰我會吐槽你啊尖峰就是缺電嘛你們一說沒缺電那沒缺電又在尖離峰什麼好不好一個月好不好你們檢討一下那個我能不能"},{"start":13847.666,"end":13872.804,"text":"講一下 這個其實在國外大概充電的方式大概都是類似這樣子為什麼 因為就是說其實現在的這個充電的系統它基本上會去偵測說你那個電池因為它電池漏的時候它有一個模式所以基本上像有些就是因為現在其實就是因為我們慢充的那個系統比較少所以大家都集中去快充"},{"start":13873.644,"end":13897.445,"text":"那慢充的系統它其實有些功能是它會去偵測那個電池的模式然後比如說離風的時候它就會盡量去把它充飽然後尖峰的時候它就會避開那大家也不會集中在過渡在某一個地方去充電那對大家來說 家用當然可以這樣子設定啦但是當家裡沒有充電樁的時候你就只能去外面嘛 那就是價格的問題啦好不好 那一個月內提間可不可以"},{"start":13900.305,"end":13924.959,"text":"好是謝謝委員好謝謝喔那因為我們現在在討論到這個淨零碳呃私人載具轉型的問題過程中呃當然現在第三方包括特斯拉以及很多第三方的超充業者賣現在都雨後春筍的在在擴張嘛對不對但是我們目前好像並沒有針對快充站有一個很明確的一個規定就像是我們呃停車場法有很明確的停車場路外停車場的設置的規範所以說"},{"start":13927.04,"end":13935.255,"text":"現在因為都市的地方 地不好找所以說廠商就會有一些亂象產生就像我這頭影片顯示的"},{"start":13936.852,"end":13960.381,"text":"左邊那張可能沒有看到人行道右邊這一張你很可以明確的看到最右邊的那台車它車殼比較大的越往左邊越來越小到第二台車的時候其實車子要停到最後面的時候它的車頭就已經到我們的人行道了如果說在更左邊的這一格它的車一定就是會站到我們人行道影響到我們行人通行的空間那針對這樣子的一個問題我們目前經濟部我們確定快充"},{"start":13961.6,"end":13978.329,"text":"業者的主管機關會是是不是經濟部以及他有沒有適用的一個法規去給他做一些相關的限制跟委員報告一下那個經濟部管的部分就是說那個快充站他有一些用電設備他必須要符合用戶用電設備裝置規則"},{"start":13979.98,"end":13995.632,"text":"那至於說那個地方因為現在的位置大部分都是停車空間去設的啦對那所以這個規範可能還是因為道路安全部分可能還是交通部這個可能要請教交通部的部分好沒關係那電力安全部分我們經營部會處理好下一張沒關係下一張你剛剛講的就是這個"},{"start":13997.634,"end":14013.611,"text":"目前充電有兩個管道就是一般來說會設置在兩個地方一個是合法的停車場那合法的停車場裡面自然就有停車場法去規範這部分就沒有問題了另外一個就是非合法的停車場還是可以設充電樁難道不行嗎?可不可以?沒有在停車場內可以設快充設備嗎?有沒有一個單位會說不行?"},{"start":14023.012,"end":14034.366,"text":"我跟委員報告這個合法停車因為這個現在來講合法非法這個本來就是依照停車場法我不是說非法我是說不是在合法的停車場內我不是說它是非法停車場"},{"start":14038.371,"end":14061.489,"text":"這兩個不一樣就是停車場裡頭當然充電樁的設置我們因為有停車場法的相關規定我們只是去規範它一定的比例所以它的空間什麼的都符合我們的規範它不會影響到包括出入口等等不會影響到交通裡面的車格規範有一定的長寬的配置它要去設置的時候但是當它這一站不是設在我們合法的停車場裡面的時候"},{"start":14063.29,"end":14082.807,"text":"就沒有任何一個法可以管到他啦就像我剛剛講的他設了之後他的車子會停到人行道上啊我包括左邊這一張它其實是人行道我巴不進去我一定就會在人行道上面行車嘛我跟委員報告這分很多地方啊充電樁的設置你看像在公寓大廈裡頭也會有那你這裡在講到說譬如說在這一個空地裡頭要去設置當然設置的時候它就有相關的一個規範那規範是什麼"},{"start":14090.453,"end":14096.964,"text":"譬如說你剛才講的用地的是不是用地可以在那個用地上來設對啊 那目前有沒有任何的規定可以規範"},{"start":14098.717,"end":14121.313,"text":"這個可能要經濟部有沒有經濟部來做相關的規範我還是跟委員報告一下就是說現在我們用電的部分因為我們你們只管電嘛對不對對那因為車子要停上去要充電他一定有經過車子可以走的地方這個就可能不是經濟部可以對所以現在就是沒人管得到嘛我們交通部只管得到合法停車場對不對經濟部只管電力"},{"start":14125.515,"end":14152.494,"text":"對 就是跟設家遊站什麼我跟委員稍微說明一下有關充電樁的主管機關這個在行政院已經綠定好相關的主管機關不是在交通部不是嘛 我也認為是經濟部啊所以所以但是經濟部剛剛講他們只管電力嘛他們不管場域嘛這或許他們來的不是真正主管因為他每一個東西設電的時候他有相關的規範他還是要去會同去看我告訴市長就是沒有今天我才在這邊質詢啊"},{"start":14153.855,"end":14180.898,"text":"就是沒有不然特斯拉這種國際的企業有可能不遵守我們國家的規範在那邊亂設一通嗎所以我剛才就講因為這個也是一個長期以來我們整個行政院在推動我們基建我們鼓勵要多設充電樁但是我們一定也要確保我們設置快充站我們要有一個明確的一個設置的辦法就類似停車場法它不一定要像停車場法一樣但是必須要參考那這部分後續是不是可以請經濟部"},{"start":14182.96,"end":14193.766,"text":"針對快充站這樣子的一個行業他所要使用的場域去做一個比如說他的車格的限制啊規範等等的你要交通部組織還是經濟部"},{"start":14197.746,"end":14216.181,"text":"沒有錯我們分工的部分這個行政院現在是指定由經濟部負責但是因為充電樁的佈置的部分這個還是交通部主責所以這個部分最主要還是車子要實際可以開進去的那個不是我們經濟部主管問題是現在那邊一片空地交通部怎麼管得到那片空地"},{"start":14218.959,"end":14237.206,"text":"我報告一下其實委員所指的部分就是說因應這個電動化未來會有商業營業用的充電站區這樣子的設置這個充電站區的設置基本上就跟以前的加油站的設置或是未來因應清冷會有加輕站的設置其實都是相同的一個道理"},{"start":14237.546,"end":14264.485,"text":"那這個站區的一個這個設置的部分的話當然如果靠入口一定會考慮到出入口就是現在我們進出加油站這個這個加油現在加油站是用導視的部分那未來要像這種充電站的話可能就是這個車輛用排列的這個方式那這個部分的話我想經濟部留言組這邊可以待會去看是不是說針對充電站區的設置需不需要一個專責的這個規定他們可以來做一個這個考量"},{"start":14264.785,"end":14290.801,"text":"或許今天來的人沒有辦法決定啦副組長可能也沒辦法代替經濟部來決定但是就後續請交通部跟經濟部回去這個東西要解決一下我們要廣設基礎設施但是我們要確保這些基礎設施它是至少它不要影響到像剛剛講的我們人行道人行的通行的問題包括以後設置的場域你的土地管制或是說你如果說已經是在建築法管制到的一些空地等等的"},{"start":14291.141,"end":14310.865,"text":"他哪些地方可以設哪些地方不能設設的情況要有哪些車格的限制等等的我都希望經濟部未來有一個明確的規範不要說我們一面在推廣的時候但是卻又影響到其他的外部消費市要由我們全民行人來做承擔了好不好以上再麻煩我們的市長跟我們經濟部的長官謝謝好謝謝好謝謝廖先祥委員接下來邀請王逸川委員質詢"},{"start":14330.814,"end":14332.155,"text":"主席我們請國發會跟交通部陳次長請國發會陳副處長"},{"start":14345.359,"end":14365.483,"text":"好 我今天要問的題目是我們台灣的公車要全面電動化這件事情交通部有沒有認真在推動好 我們先看這一張今天你們交的報告陳市長 國發會說到去年的11月台灣電動車的普及率31.5 對嗎"},{"start":14370.555,"end":14381.98,"text":"他這31.5就是剛才我們在很多都特別提到的就是包含這個在營運中的跟核定的台灣的大客車有幾輛啊"},{"start":14384.097,"end":14385.619,"text":"市區電動公車大概11700輛來 部長你看你們的報告你們報告說要汰換電動大客車14500輛"},{"start":14406.874,"end":14418.06,"text":"你們定義的是14500輛嘛 對不對那到去年的年底你們說你們已經領牌的是1926嘛1926除以14500輛是13.28 好我想跟你計較這些數字就是說國華會的數字啊應該也是交通部給的"},{"start":14431.256,"end":14442.582,"text":"我稍微再跟委員說明一下那個原則上會多出來那個4000多部那個是公路客運的部分我們是在對啦我知道啦但是國化會把電動大客車它就這樣寫嘛但是我們一般對大客車的定義不是這樣因為對"},{"start":14451.287,"end":14463.631,"text":"因為大顆車 遊覽車也是大顆車所以這些文字精準一點 好不好因為國外會看到數字也是你們給的 好不好那我們看下一張原來設定50%要電動化是指市區公車嗎那公路客運是交通部公路局管的要做嗎"},{"start":14478.188,"end":14500.579,"text":"那為什麼公路客運都不來申請電動車目前大概重點先擺在這個市區公車的部分沒有重點嘛市區公車是市政府管的嘛六都市政府管的嘛對不對那公路客運是公路局管的嘛那為什麼公路客運的業者不申請"},{"start":14502.217,"end":14524.469,"text":"電動公車跟我們報告並不是說客運業者不申請最主要就是說目前適合公路客運跟國道客運的電動的車的車型目前還在開發中應該這個今年第一季會有這個經過審議合格的這個車型出來因為在性能上面的要求會有不一樣"},{"start":14526.014,"end":14542.495,"text":"那遊覽車呢遊覽車更是一個高性能的部分所以現在沒有遊覽車的電動車現行在科學園區大概有將近50輛這個電動遊覽但是他是用地地板另外就是專門跑這個"},{"start":14544.577,"end":14557.829,"text":"市區公車六都剛剛蔡奇昌副院長有提到那個數量沒有機會讓你們解釋你們知道為什麼會有些都沒有嗎為什麼有一些很低為什麼有一些很高嗎"},{"start":14562.577,"end":14582.604,"text":"你不要笑啊 你知道答案你就講啊好 這部分我大概跟委員報告一下因為就是說確實電動公車的一個這個推產各縣市都這一個不太一樣啊那但是這一個就是關鍵是什麼關鍵在於就是說確實像有一些這個縣市它起步可能推的比較不是啦"},{"start":14584.13,"end":14602.775,"text":"就是車公里成本不一樣嗎?編的補貼不一樣嗎?現在全台灣對電動公車車公里成本給最高的是誰?我印象中應該是台中或者是台南吧台南啦台南給蠻高的56.34啦第二名第二名是桃園啦"},{"start":14609.093,"end":14620.581,"text":"桃園52.7再加購車補助桃園喔桃園給最高的車公里喔然後又給購車補助喔結果他是六都最後一名為什麼"},{"start":14629.933,"end":14653.532,"text":"當時有關那個車子應該是想說一開始的時候我們大概只有幾行所以很多的客運業者大概在觀望其他的車型我跟你講關鍵就是地方政府的這些加碼補助跟對車工裡的計算不一樣就會導致各城市的客運業者願不願意把柴油公車連線到的時候換成電動公車"},{"start":14655.493,"end":14660.455,"text":"所以你們要去盤點這六都他們對這個車公里成本的計算到底哪裡不一樣 因為你們只做這個購車補助嘛 對不對好 那剛剛我再請問一下 那購車補助車子買來了要充電的那個場地啊各縣市政府跟客運業者有沒有遇到困難"},{"start":14678.24,"end":14680.904,"text":"放月子有沒有想要因為他們的車都要休息嘛他們都要充電嘛那充電的地方有沒有遇到抗爭遇到人家不讓他設那這個都丟給縣市政府還是公路局會介入來協助"},{"start":14694.082,"end":14705.335,"text":"我跟委員報告一下確實那個車廂數一多的時候這個一定會碰到問題那所以當時就是要求地方政府在提計劃書的時候就對於這個要就是說協助這個客人業者來找這個設停車場跟充電場這個部分要有整體的規劃所以這是縣市政府負責"},{"start":14712.403,"end":14741.681,"text":"對然後另外一個部分有場地之後要設充電樁這些供電用電的等等部分的話公務局在公務局這邊跟台電有一個平台他們每個會開會那只要就是說客運業者有申請要設這個充電樁的一個場站在台電各分區都列為專案計畫在做這個列管都是優先來做一個協助我們現在對推動電動的市區公車的進度實在是非常的緩慢"},{"start":14742.878,"end":14760.651,"text":"你們應該也會認為很緩慢所以這個部分我知道你們補助不會無窮無盡最新一期的補助那個付款的條件是越來越差所以對這些客運業者來說他們願意再加碼繼續買的那個意願會越來越低那可是你們離目標離國安會幫你們訂的環境部幫你們訂的行政院幫你們訂的那個數字會越來越遠"},{"start":14771.377,"end":14774.44,"text":"會越來越遠 因為最早期馬來西亞電動公車也都到齊了那很多是中國車 對不對很多是大量的中國車 那些也都到齊了所以接下來呢 你們怎麼在 你們的經費有限補助會越來越少然後呢 給客運業者的補助的時程 就是說分期付款越拉越多期"},{"start":14794.727,"end":14803.372,"text":"造成這業者不願意買可是國安會訂了目標環境部訂了目標行政院訂了目標那我們的運輸部門越來越難達成"},{"start":14805.083,"end":14825.307,"text":"那到最後全部會怪運輸部門因為運輸部門本來就是這個排碳最大宗大概就在運輸部門後面國外會都一直點頭所以你們要記得一定要想辦法跟上來不能讓其他的部門住宅部門這些部門笑我們好不好交通部要加油謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝王逸川委員"},{"start":14832.898,"end":14853.823,"text":"接下來邀請鄭天才委員質詢主席 各位委員 有請次長還有台鐵公司總經理"},{"start":14859.603,"end":14865.787,"text":"台鐵公司的總經理馮總經理市長今天談淨零排放轉型這個部分在報告裡面鐵路運輸業相關措施裡面有提到車站"},{"start":14882.598,"end":14902.455,"text":"車站的部分這邊就提到這個冷氣機事實上除了冷氣機之外很重要的而且是這個用電常常是最高的就是那個電梯電梯不是那個上下的電梯"},{"start":14903.863,"end":14929.83,"text":"是那個斜著那個怎麼稱呼就是這樣斜斜上去的那個便梯這個部分是用電相當高因為你們的設備並沒有說沒有人的時候會停要改善"},{"start":14931.704,"end":14934.261,"text":"就是沒有人做的時候 沒有人要搭的時候"},{"start":14936.246,"end":14963.318,"text":"要停然後人要靠近的時候他就會再啟動很多車站沒有這個設備嘛是不是這樣你們可以回去去檢視一下所以這個部分因為我常常搭火車啦常搭火車我非常清楚所以這個部分是一個需要去解決的現在設備都是可以的所以這個部分要請台鐵就請回座"},{"start":14964.754,"end":14985.743,"text":"接下來請公路總局長上來繼續談蘇阿安我談了很多次蘇阿安的計畫現在的進度環境部在去年的8月6日環評大會通過了環評審查"},{"start":14989.707,"end":14996.859,"text":"然後國發會也召開了演唱會議交通部在113年10月22號再送國發會報行政宴現在進度怎麼樣"},{"start":15005.603,"end":15025.583,"text":"是跟我們報告我們把因為環評大會大概通過了那這個部分的話就是我們提報這個整個裁員的建設計畫報行政院那行政院還沒合不過就是說就公路局來說其實我們後續的準備包括相關的一個設計還有一個分標案的這一個工作我們自己已經在內部已經在作業了那個"},{"start":15029.443,"end":15031.865,"text":"你們去年10月22號送國發會國發會有送行政院的嗎"},{"start":15038.452,"end":15062.362,"text":"回去查一下好不好第一個就是說國發會什麼時候送給行政院因為國發會已經召開過會議了嘛10月15號召開過會議裡面就修正了一部分所以很快的就送到國發會了嘛那現在已經這麼久了應該國發會我們了解後再向委員說明這個再提供書面的資料是這個因為"},{"start":15065.763,"end":15082.752,"text":"按照你們原來的期程如果這個前面不好好的去掌握的話期程會受到很大的影響所以這個部分是如果我們去對比這個抒發改的時候抒發改是更困難的"},{"start":15084.227,"end":15107.462,"text":"結果它騎乘都還比較短所以這個部分要請交通部公路總局要多加油 多協調所以要去追蹤那個進度了要去追蹤那個進度 好不好提供資料之後 我也會去協調行政院能夠加快好 謝謝委員另外就是這個去年的8月16號"},{"start":15109.932,"end":15128.152,"text":"這個公路總局有針對台11線港口部落外環道可行性評估的期末報告這個部分當然你們也進行的都有按照進度來進行現在就是說這個"},{"start":15129.895,"end":15141.356,"text":"目前這個進度也提供素面資料好沒問題因為是大概期末之後要有一些修正啦有一些修正我們大概今年三月份大概應該會把報告完成這樣子"},{"start":15142.146,"end":15161.144,"text":"對 按照當天的審查會計錄 各機關的發言包括地方政府 尤其是那個有關涉及到遺址那個部分那個部分基本上都沒有問題所以這個部分 然後相關部落的同意 那個也都完成了"},{"start":15162.004,"end":15184.344,"text":"所以這個部分是應該可以加快來處理所以這個部分也把這個相關的進度 因為從去年8月到現在也有超過半年了是不是提供這個素面的資料好 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員接下來邀請邱若驊委員質詢"},{"start":15191.53,"end":15216.406,"text":"好 謝謝主席 主席有請交通部陳政務次長請陳次長我也好次長好 我們今天討論淨零碳排那低碳永續無縫的大眾運輸是我們共同努力的目標那為了要實現淨零碳排我們都鼓勵民眾多加使用大眾交通運輸工具嘛那次長大眾運輸工具的前提是什麼"},{"start":15218.589,"end":15233.19,"text":"呃應該是說他應該是呃應該費率有一定的這個負擔的期啊那相關的路線啊整合啊時間上應該是對那讓呃民眾願意去達成是次長您提到費率還有路線呢那前提是要有"},{"start":15233.67,"end":15246.258,"text":"才能讓民眾來做使用那只有當更多人越多越多人來使用這個大眾運輸工具我們才能往淨領碳排的目標來邁進那如果基礎建設不足不完善我們說再多政策都是空談那這個觀點市長您認為呢同意"},{"start":15248.96,"end":15274.556,"text":"同意 那本席選區有一個重大的交通建設捷運三陰線延伸至八德一岸本席一再的談到那從10月18交通組的質詢有問過院長那院長僅說他會加速核定的流程那9月20號至今交通部呈報到行政院已經110天了那其中在委員會的時候本席也有向部長來做反應希望能夠來盡速核定因為交通部"},{"start":15275.436,"end":15280.992,"text":"則無旁貸那依舊還在卡關中那次長您知道三一線什麼時候完工嗎"},{"start":15286.741,"end":15312.371,"text":"這個要查一下這要查一下 今年114年就要完工了延伸段我剛剛問次長是問山陰縣那規劃通車是115年的上半年可是目前山陰縣延伸到巴德的一岸卻卡在行政院是 那交通部這邊可以來做什麼協助難道不用向院長來做反應嗎"},{"start":15313.918,"end":15329.596,"text":"我想委員這部分我們來瞭解一下然後來向行政院來看怎麼樣來尋求相關交通部應該知道國發會以及新北市政府、台北市政府都是樂觀其成的吧那交通部的立場呢"},{"start":15330.677,"end":15349.994,"text":"因為都已經經過相關的審查 我們也是一樣樂觀啟展 也是支持的那我們看到下一張簡報 本席不得不說邊是永遠大不了大都 我們是永遠大不了的結合定一直都是到不了 這條三菸線都到不了八德那拜託次長這邊再次的向院長 交通部這邊來做 向院長來做反應"},{"start":15351.815,"end":15378.392,"text":"那因為這條山陰線延伸至八樓是我們地方的重大建設那希望交通部可以積極的向院長向行政院來爭取反映我們還有地方基層的新生好嗎我們來向行政院來反映因為農曆新年也快到了希望交通部可以送給我們地方這份大禮我們盡量來努力OK好那接下來我們看到今天我們今天要討論的議題那隨著全球暖化加劇2024年"},{"start":15379.773,"end":15401.236,"text":"全球危險高溫增加了41天那有26起極端天災造成3700人死亡那根據聯合國氣象組織的報告那全球毀滅性的洪災有16起那其中15起就是因為全球氣候變遷導致降雨量異常這是有直接的關係如果不迅速來減少碳排的話那本世紀末全球氣溫上升他恐怕是"},{"start":15401.977,"end":15429.702,"text":"上升是2.6到3.1的攝氏度的目標那遠超過巴黎氣候協議設定的1.5攝氏度那本席這邊也請我們我們能源署的副署長好主席吳副署長謝謝好請吳副署長各位好副署長好那您剛剛也有聽到那這個淨利碳白已經是刻不容緩了您同意嗎"},{"start":15431.55,"end":15458.064,"text":"是的 我們現在院裡也有相關的政策去應對因為汽油燃燒它產生的大量的二氧化碳還有汽車所排出來的碳是造成溫室效應的主要原因之一所以我們應該來想說要怎麼來提高民眾使用大眾運輸的意願那電費的調漲會增加大眾系統運輸的營運成本然後進一步的影響票價那之前本席也有向部長提出來"},{"start":15460.606,"end":15488.68,"text":"電價的調漲組的機關是經濟部還有能源署那這邊今天也來就叫我們副署長然後還有次長那根據資料顯示這次電價漲調漲之後台電他增加了4.56億然後北捷3.9億還有高鐵3.6到3.7億那其實各大的軌道的系統電費都增加了那為了因應電價那交通部這邊還有像我們機場捷運高雄捷運還有台北捷運他也取消了優惠然後也調整了優惠那這一次"},{"start":15489.744,"end":15502.217,"text":"有三個捷運的系統他已經取消了部分的優惠那北捷常客的優惠也縮水他影響到30萬的通勤族那請問次長您知道北捷常客的優惠是是什麼嗎是什麼樣的方案嗎"},{"start":15505.824,"end":15528.724,"text":"具體的方案我不是很清楚但是我瞭解他是應該是搭乘的次數搭乘一定的次數對他是以搭乘的次數來做計算然後跟回饋嘛比如說11到20次他是他的回饋比例是10%那21到30次他可以回饋到15%那這樣往上類推那本身以助理以我的助理來做舉例他每天立法院跟住家來往返一個月"},{"start":15529.224,"end":15546.336,"text":"一天的平均車資是65元那一個月我們以20天來做計算的話搭乘次數是40次他可以享受到20%的回饋是260元那這樣子一個月下來他的車資是1040元即使他沒有使用TPAS"},{"start":15546.556,"end":15575.138,"text":"可是優惠收水之後他車資也增加了所以他有向本席來做意見上面的分享那也因為這個車資的調整讓他考慮其他的通勤方式那這是通勤的部分然後我們看到公司的部分像陶基公司還有台鐵公司郵政公司港務公司那他的水電費也是增加的那其中以台鐵4.43億增加最多那這四間公司都是掌管交通的業務那次長這樣子會不會直接接下來"},{"start":15575.96,"end":15577.916,"text":"的調整會不會影響到我們民眾的生活"},{"start":15580.274,"end":15604.511,"text":"我先分兩塊 剛才上一塊是有關這個北捷的常客優惠的那一部分那一部分其實也是剛才委員特別提到就是鼓勵公共運輸所以交通部 公務局大概在這個應該是在不久會推出所謂常客優惠的一個方案會去救這個市長您說不久後會推出不久後是多久之後應該是這個月吧"},{"start":15606.392,"end":15621.531,"text":"這個月什麼時候會公佈近期會公佈我想近期我們的相關的這個新春記者會吧應該會來做公佈新春記者會是在這個月嗎月中月中的時候會來做公佈"},{"start":15622.913,"end":15649.918,"text":"是有一個常客優惠的一個方案會來推出那至於說這個各個這個公司相關那個水電的一個漲價我想相關的那個費用會不會反映到他們的那個還是要看公司治理他們的來考慮那目前我的了解他們大概都維持現有的一個營運方式對 而且這邊請教副組長一個問題副組長您也聽到了來節省他的相關的電費那未來三年電費還會做調漲嗎"},{"start":15653.271,"end":15657.038,"text":"公委報告那個電價要不要變動是電價審議會的權責電價審議會的權責那這邊請教副署長過去幾年我們電價調漲了多少就工業電價來說"},{"start":15669.032,"end":15673.053,"text":"這一次這個詳細數字我在看 詳細數字2022年調漲了15%2023年調漲了17%2024年的4月調了14%10月又調了14%這是您的業務您不清楚嗎"},{"start":15685.605,"end":15709.29,"text":"詳細的數字我剛剛詳細的數字已經跟你說啦但是我跟委員報告一下因為畢竟台電你知道調漲天價會造成也會影響到民眾嗎所以那個其實院已經有協商過就是說如果這個就是說公司就是因為台電畢竟他還是一個公司他還是要根據電費的收入來維持他經常性的營運"},{"start":15710.33,"end":15733.724,"text":"那如果就是說各部會如果有相關的一些他自己所管的業務說需要有做一些補助的話本席這邊沒有要跟您討論能源政策那也希望就是我們不希望票價再漲了進而影響民眾搭乘大眾運輸的意願那這邊也請交通部跟能源署來做跨部會的討論針對我們交通運輸工具的部分"},{"start":15735.032,"end":15750.525,"text":"沒有問題 我覺得票價的調整會影響很多民眾的出行這部分交通部會審慎處理OK 好 謝謝次長謝謝主席好 謝謝邱若驊委員接下來邀請張祺凱委員張祺凱委員張祺凱委員張祺凱委員不在現場接下來邀請侯孟凱委員發言"},{"start":15765.888,"end":15766.311,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請陳次長請陳次長"},{"start":15772.884,"end":15800.752,"text":"次長好我也好次長今天討論我們近民碳排轉型改善措施其實最重要的就是希望鼓勵大家多用大眾運輸工具是是減少碳排對不對是是好本席三個月前就在這邊有跟局部長這邊來要求就是說考慮是不是能夠有通勤的時間國道客運事辦雙程巴士的通行那不知道現在進度如何"},{"start":15802.998,"end":15821.263,"text":"因為國道客運上面用雙層巴士三個部分第一解決現在缺工的問題嘛一輛巴士可以多載一些旅客嘛第二能夠讓更多的人使用同一班的一個大眾運輸工具以及第三減少國道上面的一個車輛的一個數量來"},{"start":15823.323,"end":15830.326,"text":"現在全世界各國以前你們一直主旨是說世界各國沒有多少國家是有國道客運雙層巴士可以上國道但事實是如此嗎"},{"start":15851.497,"end":15870.3,"text":"我們收集完之後才發覺說很多國家其實都有開放國道是可以用造成巴士對不對原則上大概就是主要使用還是在這個就是說市區遊覽的部分但是剛剛委員所提到確實在英國或等等部分有這個長途國道客運的部分"},{"start":15870.64,"end":15894.038,"text":"那我們也特別去了解他的車型車高這些消息還包括這個左軸人數的部分那大概目前這個這個收集回來之後那目前私底面在凝聚這些相關東西原則上我們內部會這個簽一個這個就是說處理的一個方向後面會找這個處理廠還有客戶業者大家來共同做一個還要多久時間"},{"start":15895.579,"end":15920.929,"text":"這部分的話 我講三個月前跟我現世淡淡講說這是一個很好的方向只要安全無虞的情況下可以辦理我們就優先來試辦那結果現在三個月過去了怎麼還是停留在這個討論階段我跟委員報告一下就是說前面這些相關的東西因為裡面就是我剛剛跟委員報告的一個部分裡面有車輛規格這些相關的部分那個是比較這個具體這個細部的部分啦"},{"start":15921.249,"end":15947.725,"text":"那我這邊大概跟委員報告一下還要多久時間是不是我這個應該這個過完年之後我就立刻召開第一次會議還要等過年啊是要等發紅包是不是因為有些程序處理完之後大概剛好碰到這一個就是月底過年的一個這個期間那我想說過完年之後那我們這個相關推就是說這些細部這個規格處理的部分我們就來開會做討論"},{"start":15949.586,"end":15952.73,"text":"過完年之後會開第一次會議是是是好來市長"},{"start":15953.854,"end":15980.807,"text":"市長本席為了今天的一個質詢我再收集了很多資料我給您看一下我也希望不要被下面的人蒙蔽因為以前的人大家都講是說世界各國很少開放國道有雙層巴士的行駛結果其實不是第一英國英國雙層巴士它就有在國道上面還有跨國的路線上面行駛第二"},{"start":15981.829,"end":15998.622,"text":"香港它的快速公路跟道路它其實也就有雙程巴士以70到80公里的時速在做行駛雖然說快速公路跟道路不一定他們的名稱是國道但實際上他們的性質就是高速公路第三"},{"start":15999.423,"end":16019.77,"text":"新加坡新加坡也有雙層巴士行駛在主要的幹道跟快速道路上面當然新加坡的道路設計規劃的時候可能當初就已經考慮到說雙層巴士的需求所以對於限高等等就已經有考量進去來下一頁"},{"start":16020.782,"end":16038.097,"text":"以及美國美國這樣子的Megabus是美國加拿大都有雙程巴士的一個行駛都有行經他們主要的這個城市我更上網看一下這個Megabus的一個官方網站他們的那個巴士長什麼樣子"},{"start":16039.753,"end":16058.362,"text":"好 歐洲它就長這個樣子它其實跟一般使用的市區的觀光巴士那種雙層第二層是露天的是不一樣的它其實是一個包覆性的兩層的巴士而且因為Megabus他們做起來之後它就可以讓"},{"start":16059.322,"end":16084.249,"text":"國道客運讓這些客運業者有更多的優惠跟競爭力因為他只要一個駕駛就可以有多載一程的旅客嘛所以你看他上面寫什麼一塊錢啊Mega bus的那官方網站上面你看很多的留學生喔他們去美國的話都會去搶那個票就是他們每一台Mega bus裡面雙程巴士他都會有提供一張票"},{"start":16085.202,"end":16113.133,"text":"一塊美金就好剩下幾張票五塊美金再其他的票才是原本的價錢那如果說國外不管美國不管歐洲不管英國不管香港不管新加坡都有類似的一個推動的話那台灣第一地狹人稠第二我們的通勤其實是有需要的第三現在國道客運上面其實大家也覺得很辛苦啊"},{"start":16114.687,"end":16142.097,"text":"大家也覺得很辛苦啊不是嗎缺工的問題駕駛找不到但是找到了結果我們這個競爭力大家也覺得是說跟這個高鐵跟這個台鐵很難比較那如果說我們能夠有比較多一點思考去開放讓這些業者他們能夠做第一對於我們的這個乘客來講的話他就不會在上下班通勤時間看到等了很久就一台車來發覺上面已經滿了我只能再等下一班"},{"start":16143.393,"end":16160.726,"text":"有沒有多少市長你應該你這公路體系出色的你應該很能理解啊有多少人那種通勤族這種寒風天站了二三十分鐘一台車來結果看到原來那台車滿了他就要看著被迫走那我另外要再等下一台"},{"start":16161.912,"end":16177.715,"text":"所以我今天列出那麼多相關是世界各國確實有這樣子的一個做法也都可行也都安全那我們現在台灣在討論所謂的淨零碳排跟討論所謂的這些能夠擴大交通運量"},{"start":16178.536,"end":16207.233,"text":"等相關部分能不能有更積極的思維來市長簡單回應一下我想我跟委員做說明部長已經有提到說朝這個方向來演繹所以原則上呢我想剛才市長也說明了我們會朝這個方向來演繹那最主要考量還是安全那以往來講的話那個其實我們在早幾年我們的國道還是有出現那個雙層的下面坐人的所以"},{"start":16207.833,"end":16225.495,"text":"當時大家的印象就是那種車子真的是很不安全那剛才委員秀出來Megabus的那個如果說我們國內而且隨著這個我們刑事認證的推轉其實車子的打造的技術也提升了所以如果國內有這樣的打造的技術的能力真的把這樣的打造出來車體的安全"},{"start":16226.977,"end":16253.862,"text":"以及相關的行控然後還有你也可以把它的時數給控制住甚至我之前就提過說範圍可以控制以北北基桃中張頭雲嘉南高高屏用通勤的概念先示範好不好這個我們一併納入好市長這是第一個部分抱歉主席站起來但是還有另外一個也很重要的議題我今天有準備那個桃園機場捷運他們在10月的時候有回報說他們要採購這個列車"},{"start":16256.443,"end":16259.205,"text":"一個是要採購6輛直達車跟4輛的一個普通車但發覺說是卡關為什麼是因為那個零件說"},{"start":16264.741,"end":16290.976,"text":"沒有再生產了那到目前為止我們要怎麼協助因為今年3月才在交通委員會去桃園視察的時候才講信誓旦旦承諾這有補不管是有中央有補助或是等等的部分我們要讓機場公司來買列車啊那現在因為T-pass以及我們很多的這個使用的一個習慣所以早上桃園林口要來台北這班班都爆滿可是他現在車廂買不進來有沒有了解這個問題"},{"start":16296.453,"end":16314.308,"text":"我沒有掌握到這個問題我最近會跟台市政府來召開會議來演商一下還沒有召開會議啊10月就爆發的事情到現在你跟我講說已經過三個月了我本來以為是你要跟我講說解決方法你現在才要再召開會議因為這個這個原來的耗資廠商確實現在有供應上的問題原來的耗資廠商當時是誰簽的"},{"start":16320.53,"end":16328.291,"text":"當時是前高鐵局是前高鐵局嘛也就是鐵道局嘛是不是那結果簽了多久之後那原耗資廠商就倒了"},{"start":16329.448,"end":16350.825,"text":"倒了嘛是的是那現在就變成說它是被德國西門子併購了不管是併購不管是消失反正它就是不見了那現在變成是說你找不到原本的廠商所以現在就傳出說12項零件裡面有7項是已經停產了造成說我們現在機場捷運的那些車廂要去買的話買不到新的車廂"},{"start":16352.196,"end":16377.177,"text":"那這問題要怎麼解決這個我想你不可能直接推給不能推給地方政府是吧並不會是的是所以什麼時候要找地方政府來溝通我們已經在安排會議了什麼時候應該是在年前就會召開因為我開通章昨天的前天就已經發出去了這期我沒有記得抱歉好 次長這一個問題為什麼會特別點出來也一樣"},{"start":16380.994,"end":16402.94,"text":"淨零碳排我們大家都重視要用淨零碳排就是要有大眾運輸工具大眾運輸工具裡面就是要讓大家能夠方便來做來搭乘那現在如果說連我們都已經編列了預算結果我們要買車廂買不到我覺得是華天下之大機啊這真的是笑話變成是我們要買方市場照理講全世界這不是戰鬥機不是飛機耶"},{"start":16405.345,"end":16422.004,"text":"捷運車廂不是戰鬥機不是飛機不算是賣方市場應該說買方市場我們編了錢結果我們還買不到那洪委員因為你的時間已經超過一倍了是不是這個問題那個高鐵局已經要開會了是不是可以請洪委員也可以出席"},{"start":16422.805,"end":16436.962,"text":"就說這個會議侯委員可以適合出席嗎讓他可以去比較進一步瞭解還是會議結論再跟侯委員報答趙偉只派工作給我做要我去頂你們好好開會沒有我覺得趙偉這樣講也是對"},{"start":16439.224,"end":16466.88,"text":"你不要說技術層面不要說是技術層面的會議啊該怎麼樣開會因為這個是包括桃園市包括新北市包括台北市通勤的民眾使用積極的民眾大家都關心的甚至現在你說你要國國際的觀光市場要恢復那國際觀光市場要恢復你的桃園機場捷運的品質你要起來嘛提供本席什麼時候開會那並且市長我真的要求您您要主動的來去督導"},{"start":16468.663,"end":16482.402,"text":"好不好對 你要主動來督導不要把它放任就是放成下面去看因為這不是地方政府的責任而已我覺得這應該是交通部要整體考量集結現在既然已經"},{"start":16483.652,"end":16501.588,"text":"有運輸了早上現在真的是班班客滿那最需要的就是趕快買新的車廂然後能夠增加這個運量可以嗎好這部分我們呃會來跟鐵道局來共同看怎麼樣來解決好再請提供本席相關資料好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝洪門凱委員好接下來邀請謝義鳳委員"},{"start":16519.202,"end":16541.35,"text":"謝謝主席 我想要請我們陳次長好 請陳次長陳次長你要好好表現喔 主席 趙偉對那個陳世凱比較好 我給他請假你要在這裡好好表現一下是 我願好好 那個我願可以大力的質詢沒關係好好好 再找那個公路總局的好 我們局長來請陳局長"},{"start":16547.452,"end":16565.981,"text":"我們知道現在台灣面臨到就是我們的標線不明或者是我們的號誌管理不當導致現在行車的時候非常多的駕駛人不知道如何開車因為行人跟交通的就是車輛的那個"},{"start":16567.822,"end":16593.497,"text":"行駛路線都會交織那我們希望能夠讓行人行得安全但是這樣子的號誌規定是不是沒有辦法達到我們需要行人安全這樣子的目標對於比較就是交通湧射的路口那我們是不是應該要落實就是讓行人有一個單一的實相"},{"start":16594.918,"end":16615.75,"text":"那讓所有的車輛在行駛的時候不會產生這樣子交織的現象那在交織的現象就是如果行人在行走的時候車輛沒有辦法右轉或左轉也有可能導致了交通擁擠的現象行車不效率的現象那這個部分我想請問次長你們要怎麼解決"},{"start":16618.755,"end":16641.571,"text":"委員剛才特別提到的有關行人在入口的時候這個在過去以往交通部就一直也有相關的指引來希望各縣市政府能夠如何在什麼情況下去設置專用的號誌或者是行人的早開讓行人可以先行等等的這些都有相關的一個應該是說參考指引地方政府來使用"},{"start":16642.051,"end":16660.94,"text":"那委員特別提到了如果有些單一的路口確實沒有這樣的一個設置而造成行人在穿越馬路上的一個危害我想我們會請公路總局或者是相關單位來你們是不是已經有在示範了你們是不是有在示範看到有一些有有有是不是"},{"start":16661.28,"end":16688.849,"text":"是我想有必要的話我們也可以提供相關的示範的地方啦或者是相關的這個影片啊讓委員了解一下那根據你們示範的效果你們有發現說這樣子比較不會造成行人與車流的交織嗎當然當然是不是因為是這種情形所以我們才會發布相關的指引希望各縣市政府在特殊域剛才講的在行人很多穿越的時候能夠採用專用的號誌"},{"start":16690.489,"end":16717.416,"text":"好 那請那個局長說好 各位報告因為行人專用保護實相它其實還是有設置的條件就是譬如說入口的行人量比較多所以有時候有些行人專用保護實相它有可能是在這個入口譬如說這個尖峰時間上下班或者是那個有學校所以這個上學下學的時候那個放學的時候它會有這個專用保護實相就像委員說的專用保護實相因為射進去以後四邊的車輛要停"},{"start":16719.557,"end":16736.193,"text":"所以如果說你行人量不大的時候你做這樣子的時候它其實變成說交通就比較擁擠所以它有它考慮的路口條件行人量還有交通量那原則上其實現在各縣市政府跟我們公路局的一些省道路口都有在做而且我們現在有統計"},{"start":16737.014,"end":16749.841,"text":"每大概都有就是說比如說這個各縣市政府行人專用保護石像定期增加的數量這個在每個對在全全國的道安的那個網站都有現在已經全國有5778處入口有設行人專用保護石像了"},{"start":16753.268,"end":16771.495,"text":"好如果行人專用保護石像能夠加速就是因為現在就是行車跟行人不要交織嘛是不是那怎麼樣子增加我們行人的安全以及讓車流都可以不要湧射"},{"start":16772.816,"end":16797.726,"text":"我覺得你們一定要回去檢討那是不是應該在就是中央跟地方跨部會的中央道路交通安全會議裡面你們也應該廣為讓地方政府瞭解可不可以沒有問題我們在相關的這個匯報裡頭大概地方政府也都有參與我想我們可以在近期再一次的來重申地方政府朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":16798.171,"end":16827.431,"text":"好 那我們那個交通局長那個公路總局的局長不要公路局啊 公路總局就是嫌我太老還有我們請那個公共運輸及監理師的師長那我想要請問的就是我們現在在講減碳嘛就是要增加大眾運輸系統可是在非六都以外的這個縣市我們知道你大眾運輸系統的推廣"},{"start":16828.591,"end":16854.056,"text":"跟目前我們民眾比較仰賴的就是交通運輸工具那這個東西是不是沒有辦法並行呢因為我看到的非六都以外的這樣子的大眾運輸的系統規劃目前的確不辨明那在這種不辨明的情況下我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":16858.639,"end":16883.814,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下有關公共運輸的一個方便性或者是向路線的一個調整這個在地方的交通主管機關或者是公務局大概都會去協助那如果說他是無法開定班定線的委員應該也有聽說過他會有幸福小房或幸福巴士的一個來提供所以我想這個問題大概可以朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":16885.475,"end":16909.664,"text":"大宋運輸區 林市長這邊大概做一點補充說明啦確實就是說在1.6度16個縣市的部分自己本身的市區客運的路線跟系統的規模沒有那麼大那從去年底那部裡面也邀集這幾個縣市希望就是說來這個協助地方政府這個慢慢擴充他們的市區客運的路線跟路網然後建立這種幹支道路這個路網的"},{"start":16911.245,"end":16917.466,"text":"這個系統然後進一步來這個就是說提升這個相關肺六度的一個市區客運的一個服務系統"},{"start":16917.915,"end":16943.573,"text":"趙薇不好意思我再一下子就是還有另外一點你除了要發展就是非六度以外的大眾運輸系統以外你還有一個重點就是那你不能因業廢食啊你不能因為減碳導致現在在擁擠區 精華區所需要的這個停車設施沒有辦法建立你們會不會編列 陳次長"},{"start":16947.443,"end":16969.737,"text":"是停車場嗎 停車場的補助我們大概有前瞻的預算在今年結束那今年結束後續呢我們有抱怨也會有相關的預算我認為你不能夠因業廢食我們要發展大眾運輸的系統但是在非六都以外"},{"start":16970.638,"end":16987.227,"text":"目前大眾運輸系統沒有辦法非常普及的情況下你必須要在京華區能夠設立相關的停車場的設施 好不好所以你們這個預算也不能少是 我們會朝這個方向來努力好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝謝一芬委員接下來邀請游浩委員質詢"},{"start":17002.773,"end":17007.416,"text":"謝謝趙偉主席還有有請次長請陳次長委員好次長好新年快樂那也祝福今天所有的大家好朋友新的一年還都新氣象那也再次也表達對於南投縣許多交通建設的支持那想請教一下次長那今年的跨年的時候在家裡跨年嗎還是"},{"start":17033.96,"end":17046.24,"text":"不好意思我在家裡跨年 因為那天身體不是很好那身體健康啊 那保養身體那再來就是說 你跨年看電視跨年還是用國道監視器跨年"},{"start":17053.489,"end":17064.876,"text":"那直接提一下就是說高空局那不苛責啦因為那個時間點是生死一瞬間驚天動地60秒那本席也知道"},{"start":17066.217,"end":17091.065,"text":"這個部分是長官指示還是現場的同仁那直接把監視器的畫面轉到這個就是跨年的這個現場上但是還是在這裡因為還好那天都一切交通平安那所以說那就是局長簡單回應一下就好了是來跟委員報告那我們帶路有兩側的外面的部分通常也會做一些監看那往年的話"},{"start":17092.325,"end":17109.378,"text":"那個101的煙火花大概都會一到兩支的監視器轉過去那這次是轉的太多這是不對的所以以前都會轉嗎都會轉我們在包括台中或雲林因為我們要看外面的一個狀況還有他的路未來他結束了疏散的一些道路車輛過車流的狀況就是路外的狀況也會去看"},{"start":17112.56,"end":17129.579,"text":"那沒關係就是本席還是要在這裡提出建議啦就是這個就因為有口頭告誡了啦但是還好是平安那希望以後的話還是要讓用路人他們隨時在軌道鑽石系統上面都能夠掌握還路況的情況好不好是好"},{"start":17130.12,"end":17155.809,"text":"好那接下來的話本期還是要針對今天的淨零排汗的部分那還是要持續的來做提出那在這裡的話當然準備的資料上面有提到這個煙火秀以及半瓦遮無人機的部分是不是能夠未來來做取代或是能夠來減低這個煙火的這種施放那這樣子也是節能減碳的一個考量"},{"start":17156.249,"end":17168.765,"text":"那目前來講就直接簡單一下就教市長那在無人機的使用以及包括在煙火的釋放那這個部分在淨零排碳的部分有沒有什麼措施在未來"},{"start":17170.942,"end":17193.223,"text":"無人機的使用這個我們應該是沒有排斥原則上是各個活動的主辦機關但是原則上無人機的使用還有他一定申請的一個程序他要符合相關的一個程序才可以辦好 那本席直接這邊也建議就是說如果說要達到未來的一個目標的話那其實在這無人機的這種表演"},{"start":17194.324,"end":17214.869,"text":"部分來取代或是未來來取代這個煙火表演的話這個是需要有規劃的那不然的話其實白灘的目標其實對於這方面來講是確實沒辦法達成那因為今天時間有限那再來賴清德總統於10月20號主持7月變遷對社會議的時候那他提到了"},{"start":17215.889,"end":17233.02,"text":"國內必須團結力量打造一制度因應挑戰與國際接軌的強韌台灣同時還也願意跟中國在內的世界各國持續加強合作共同面對氣候變遷的挑戰姑且不用他這一句話來講就是在兩國論他有可能兩岸人權關係條例他其實根本就沒有讀但是無所謂"},{"start":17233.88,"end":17247.166,"text":"那在他喊話他希望來做兩岸之間的減碳合作那交通部隊氣候變遷有沒有提過任何的配套措施或是參加過任何兩岸減碳的一個會議兩岸之間國際會議不算國際我們的那個雖然賴總統他提出他希望兩岸協力協作啊那這個部分來講總不是空口白話"},{"start":17266.483,"end":17277.349,"text":"氣象署今天有來嗎?看起來今天的話...今天有變遷署啊主席時間暫停一下好不好你知道嗎?這是環境部環境部,是是好,謝謝"},{"start":17288.052,"end":17303.425,"text":"主席 委員好有關過去兩岸的合作在環境部的部分造期是比較著重在空氣品質的關係我就問今年 去年去年是在氣候署的部分是沒有沒有嘛所以說賴總統他講的話不能空口白話"},{"start":17304.346,"end":17319.659,"text":"所以說在兩岸方面的這種看牌的部分那是不是能夠協力合作那本期還是希望在今天的會議中給大家一個報告包括過去的還有包括未來的那是在指兩岸方面不是只在參加國際會議好不好一個書面報告"},{"start":17321.32,"end":17342.366,"text":"OK那謝謝那我本學校針對目前的話我們電動車在全國的這個數據尤其在特斯拉我們是算是全國第五貴那最主要是因為在台灣目前所在推動的這種設施來講以及包括環境來講確實需要在政府要再加把勁"},{"start":17343.266,"end":17361.238,"text":"那以及說在立法院預算中心報告國際上電動車與充電樁的比例為2比1但是國內的部分啦那他其實目前以2021年底來講是只有3652支但是在其他的數據那目前來講全台近9萬台的這種電動車"},{"start":17363.439,"end":17375.387,"text":"那目前CRIF它的數據統計那幾乎是40台的電動車在搶還有一個電動裝那電動裝不足的問題延續剛才廖先生的委員那要如何改善"},{"start":17377.493,"end":17388.8,"text":"我想委員這個數據或許我們可以另外來提供因為我們現在所掌握到的我們國內的電動裝大概有1048裝那相較於電動車的這種車重比的大概是9.1比1我剛才提到的這個"},{"start":17397.546,"end":17412.874,"text":"那個預算中心的部分是2022但是問題是CRF的是去年度的到年底統計的那40搶1跟歐盟他是10比1目標10比1我們目前是9.1比1所以我們9.1比1是目標"},{"start":17414.895,"end":17424.381,"text":"沒有沒有 現況現況來講的統計上因為像南投縣的話它只有96座當然充電槍也只有245支那所以說目前來講的這個充電狀的比例嚴重不足"},{"start":17429.858,"end":17457.143,"text":"那沒關係那這樣子我直接來請教一下就是因為這個問題我相信充電窗不斷的要去做一個提升要去設置這個是大家共同目標啦那在這個中央部會的話今天是交通部嘛社長在這裡那我剛剛也想問一下那在交通部底下的各個單位啊在機關的辦公場域啊那是不是都有設置這個充電樁還我想問一下那"},{"start":17458.682,"end":17465.226,"text":"這個民航局民航局今天局長有來那局長沒關係你原地回答就可以了那這個有沒有設置集資"},{"start":17471.724,"end":17491.249,"text":"在公我們辦公場所或者是機場的公用停車場的部分有設快充跟慢充那那個辦公機關的部分因為像我們局旁邊就是停車場那個部分就會有好那沒關係那因為大家不用出來那行港局局長直接回答不用特別出來直接講就好了幾隻"},{"start":17500.912,"end":17504.136,"text":"好,沒關係,這個我不追,那這個運輸研究所耶那裡弄一個電動樁好,那再來這個高工局"},{"start":17522.93,"end":17549.163,"text":"好 OK 沒關係那大致上簡單的測試一下嘛那還是 安心局長您請回那本期還是希望在中央的部分啊那如果說要達到淨零排碳2030年到三成35年到六成40年到百分之百的話那剛才就提到這個電動裝不足的問題啊嚴重失衡那以及說在中央部會那應該是要讓各機關啊"},{"start":17553.124,"end":17574.371,"text":"像是觀光署他的各景點都能夠來設置這個充電樁那我覺得說不僅交通部那其實今天相關單位也在嘛經濟部也在環境部也在嘛那其實應該要所有的中央機關都要做那再來也要跟縣市政府配合那這樣子基本上來去提升一個數量那主席時間到嘛"},{"start":17575.051,"end":17601.773,"text":"OK 好 那下次我再持續針對社區活動中心還有跟地方政府的配合再持續討論 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝游浩委員好 接下來邀請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在場接下來邀請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員 鄭振淺委員 鄭振淺委員不在場接下來邀請羅志強委員"},{"start":17603.574,"end":17626.355,"text":"羅志強委員 羅志強委員 羅志強委員不在場接下來邀請陳雪生委員陳雪生委員 陳雪生委員 陳雪生委員不在場接下來邀請賴瑞龍委員賴瑞龍委員 賴瑞龍委員 賴瑞龍委員不在場接下來邀請張家俊委員張家俊委員 張家俊委員 張家俊委員不在場接下來邀請葉元芝委員發言"},{"start":17636.212,"end":17637.5,"text":"好 請次長好 請陳次長"},{"start":17644.563,"end":17669.986,"text":"市長好 我之前曾經在這個委員會關心過區間測速的問題當時 因為今天部長沒有來那時候部長完全就往外推 推工作他說區間測速跟交通部無關那個要問警政署 或者是問各地方政府那當時我有 那應該是10月份的時候 我有請他還是研究一下到底區間測速有沒有用"},{"start":17672.111,"end":17701.167,"text":"結果我現在看到新聞我們1月15號台64台65剛好就是在我的選區板橋往中和往新莊兩段都要裝區間測速然後一段一段是速限70公里然後另外一個是80公里所以交通部說跟區間測速完全沒關係那請問一下我請教一下次長台64台65是地方政府管還是交通部公路總局管"},{"start":17703.09,"end":17711.735,"text":"是我們公務總局是公務總局嘛對啊那為什麼講到區間測速馬上就推給地方政府拜託交通部有點擔當好不好"},{"start":17712.998,"end":17733.206,"text":"而且我們可以上次我們也發文請交通部說針對區間測數做一個全國性的通盤檢討結果你看回給我們的文跟部長講的一樣說交通違規執法及取締是屬於警政機關權責原人已由內政部警政署研議檢討這個區間測數跟你們交通部一點關係都沒有"},{"start":17739.67,"end":17762.752,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下 剛才講的那些道路是道路的主管機關是公務局沒有錯但是在上面要設置相關的這個執法器材的話當然啦 但是規劃面嘛 我舉兩個例子啦第一個例子是 之前區間測出一開始推出來的時候 它沒有標準嘛後來全面下架 你知道這個事嗎"},{"start":17764.073,"end":17785.407,"text":"在2020年的時候知道這事嗎我了解然後後來是哪一個單位邀集標準局警政署請他們一起來討論出一個標準出來你知道是哪個單位嗎就是你們交通部嘛是不是是不是你交通部是當時的道安委員會那道安委員會是難道是內政部管的嗎是不是你交通部"},{"start":17788.379,"end":17815.894,"text":"是不是你們交通部嗎 這個你回答不出來喔道安委員會是不是交通部你回答不出來喔我正在回答啦 是不是是我們交通部那後來2021年的時候當時區間撤出的鏡頭被認為是用海康威視的然後交通部長林佳龍跳出來講說如果是交通部有補助的或是交通部可以管的全面都下架有沒有這件事情有吧"},{"start":17817.093,"end":17837.828,"text":"像委員是有的但是那是整體的國家對於那個對所以我現在不是就叫你整體去整體去檢討嗎那今天大家為什麼對於區間測數有疑慮第一個就是我非常好奇啊為什麼現在要在台六四台六五又要設區間測數原因是什麼原因是什麼"},{"start":17840.618,"end":17863.956,"text":"先簡單跟委員說明一下原則上區間測速的一個 剛才委員特別提到它的成效據我們了解它是有對交通安全是有一定的有確定嗎可是我有看到一些研究它是指出說區間測速的地方車禍事故也有增加 為什麼因為車子就跟前方沒有保持安全距離"},{"start":17865.083,"end":17886.164,"text":"的狀況變多的一種合理的解釋是說因為大家都一直要去看那個儀表板有沒有超速一直把注意力放在儀表板上面忽略了跟前方車子的距離這也是會產生的狀況而且你們區間測速其實他是算一個平均值嘛不是嗎就是用時間除以距離是不是"},{"start":17888.84,"end":17901.68,"text":"用時間數據然後算一個平均速限嘛如果超過那個平均速限的話就要開罰那你怎麼知道在那段時間裡面他會不會是忽然間飆很快超速然後到快要到那個終點的時候呢又降速"},{"start":17903.24,"end":17927.145,"text":"你沒有辦法去避免這樣的狀況啊我想委員提到的那些都是執行商執行面的因為今天部長沒有來啦我也不想為難你啦我只是點出一個問題就是交通部作為一個全國最高的交通主管機關當我們跟你問到區間撤訴的時候你可以推給警政署可以推給地方政府可以一副跟自己都無關的樣子"},{"start":17929.185,"end":17955.058,"text":"我這種態度我沒辦法接受所以是不是可以請你因為我們那時候發文請你們做一個通盤檢討你至少去邀集警政署你們交通部邀集警政署就跟之前一樣訂定標準的時候邀請警政署或者是各地方政府做一個檢討如果區間政府這麼好的話為什麼各團體反彈這麼激烈一定有他的問題在所以是不是可以請交通部做這件事情"},{"start":17957.772,"end":17984.158,"text":"這個來邀請相關單位就這個區間測速的如何讓他做得更加有助於交通安全這個我們可以來你可以做這個10月份的時候當時的陳世凱部長說他可以來做但是不關他的事但是他可以額外來做這個事啊那現在次長你認不認為這個責任其實在你們交通部規劃面然後甚至於通盤檢討面如果不是的話為什麼之前都是你們交通部出來講"},{"start":17986.024,"end":18013.706,"text":"我想跟委員報告就是有關交通安全的一個確保的這樣的一件事情其實是各部會或者是各單位都應該可以來做的所以剛才委員特別提到就是說邀請相關單位來就現在區間測速他是不是對交通安全上有所注意或者是在執法設置上可以有什麼樣的一個更精進的一個做法這我們交通部基於交通安全可以來做另外就針對我剛剛講的兩條"},{"start":18015.811,"end":18045.112,"text":"台六四台六五的部分因為1月15號就要上路了請你補一個報告給我好不好到底為什麼要在這個我就請公路局送一份報告給委員啦到底為什麼要在這邊去裝那個區間測速你有評估過嗎裝了以後一定會比較安全嗎他們一定有相關以前實施過的一個經驗啦我想他們在這個報告裡頭來做說明你認為說之前實施之後會比較安全的依據是什麼過去可能會發生事故原因是什麼"},{"start":18047.128,"end":18069.393,"text":"台六四台六五過去發生事故原因是什麼讓你們必須要在那邊裝區間測速原因是什麼我們再給委員一個報告你現在回答我就好了嘛原則上應該就是說還是有超速的一個所以你認為超速是造成事故最大的原因因為還是有一些各事故有一些原因的一個分析有嗎有好那你補一個報給我我們再給委員一個報告好謝謝"},{"start":18078.991,"end":18105.501,"text":"好 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及第364条"},{"start":1971.758,"end":1995.888,"text":"委員吳宗憲等19人提案增令第十章之一章明第172條之一及第172條之二委員吳宗憲等三人委員黃國昌等三人所提修正動議均保留送院會處理三本案審查完距離據審查報告提請院會公決需交黨團協商因為討論時有吳昭吉委員宗憲出席說明四條次引述條文部分文字及法制用自用與授權主席及議事人員整理宣讀完畢"},{"start":1998.717,"end":2015.214,"text":"請問各位上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有我們議事錄確定接著介紹在場委員及應邀列席官員先介紹在場委員首先介紹黃委員國昌再來介紹陳委員俊宇謝謝"},{"start":2017.864,"end":2044.962,"text":"接著介紹應邀列席官員包括我們司法院王梅英副秘書長歡迎以及行政訴訟及懲戒廳廳長陳怡廳長陳怡廳長以及行政司法行政廳高玉聖廳長歡迎那麼另外財政部我們歡迎李慶華次長歡迎那另外好那麼"},{"start":2045.771,"end":2065.299,"text":"其餘未及介紹的列席代表請參與名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄本次議程討論事項即二案分別排定繼續審查司法院函清審議稅務行政事件審理法草案及行政法院組織法部分條文修正草案現在進行討論事項"},{"start":2067.298,"end":2092.089,"text":"第一案繼續審查司法院函金審議稅務行政事件審理法草案本案前今14年1月2日本會期本會第24次全體委員會議大體討論完畢進行逐條審查分別通過法律名稱及其中部分條文令其餘未及通過部分決議令定期繼續審查源於今日再就未及審查通過這條文繼續審查現在繼續審查逐條討論"},{"start":2098.049,"end":2106.177,"text":"好那我們就繼續就尚未審查之條文的進行討論那麼主席這邊跟委員報告那上次我們"},{"start":2107.801,"end":2132.857,"text":"暫保留的條文呢我再跟大家做一個重述有目前有第四第五第七第十以及從十一到十六十一到十六上次都未經討論那以及二五二五上次也未經討論那另外呢也二十七條跟三十一條啊也都是先暫保留那因為今天呢就這些條文有討論過但暫保留的條文呢"},{"start":2133.397,"end":2145.989,"text":"那依最多委員表示不同意見的是第十條那我們先就較多委員有不同意見的讓大家可以充分討論所以我們就先第十條的部分開始進行討論"},{"start":2148.442,"end":2164.758,"text":"那麼第10條的部分呢主要是來自於滯納金跟利息那因為目前呢司法院跟財政部啊都分別有就滯納金是否計利息以及如何計算的部分呢有做了一個表格那是不是發給我們在場委員"},{"start":2195.39,"end":2196.511,"text":"如果分數夠的話,幕僚人員也請提供給黨團幕僚人員"},{"start":2213.708,"end":2222.375,"text":"目前我們手上有兩份圖表文字說明分別是因為他們沒有註記有藍色兩條兩列的是司法院"},{"start":2229.591,"end":2249.664,"text":"是財政部的主張那另外呢比較多色塊的有黃色綠色色條的這是司法院的主張那是不是請就不是啊講反了好講反了修正就對了那先請司法院的部分來說明他們主張的部分好請來陳廷長"},{"start":2251.545,"end":2266.324,"text":"欸 主席還是請對不起喔 就第十條因為條文啊 在整個討論的順序上面那主席要怎麼樣宣告 要訂什麼順序我們有什麼其他的意見那但是啊 如果要"},{"start":2268.683,"end":2289.782,"text":"舊條文來討論的話那就要舊條文來討論因為他們現在突然發了這樣一個東西感覺好像彷彿是第十條除了他們現在所發的東西以外沒有其他的整點需要討論這樣子的討論的一個限定我是沒有辦法同意"},{"start":2290.814,"end":2314.886,"text":"喔 了解 因為我們是就跟委員報告因為上次我們在討論到第十條的時候呢基本上委員會各委員的不同意見是對於智納金在提起稅務行政事件的訴訟審查後那他有兩個可能 一個是成立 就是當事人"},{"start":2316.541,"end":2341.102,"text":"敗訴一個是當事人勝訴那當事人勝訴跟敗訴的情況之下呢他會涉及到之前財政部裁罰的滯納金他後續的處理那敗訴也是一樣主要是敗訴啦當事人敗訴之後之前所裁定的滯納金如何處理的問題主要多數意見是那樣那今天呢我想謝謝委員的提出我們今天第十條不限定討論這個部分"},{"start":2342.563,"end":2356.132,"text":"因為上次第四條的討論是聚焦在這裡所以我們先從上次委員關心的部分來進行當然除了這個部分之外其他的意見委員當然還在第四條審查的時候充分表示意見"},{"start":2358.646,"end":2373.953,"text":"主席這邊只是就上次在第十條的審查期間大家討論的焦點那麼因為財政部跟司法院都做出了他們的回應跟準備那表示他們雙方呢並未達成一致的看法那要由委員會這邊來進行討論來決定"},{"start":2377.074,"end":2397.37,"text":"那我們這邊就是先就這個部分當然委員如果有其他意見我們也很歡迎那是否是上次因為包括莊委員也提出說這個滯納金在當事人敗訴之後那被裁定的滯納金之前的計息方式原來司法院的主張是全部於免息"},{"start":2398.351,"end":2419.506,"text":"但是財政部認為之前已經既然是當事人敗訴那表示他們的裁定是被承認的所以這些當時所提起訴訟之前的滯納金及應繳之利息應繼續計算這是我的理解的簡述那麼待會還是以列席機關他們的說明為主那請問委員會我們是不是來請黃委員"},{"start":2423.104,"end":2438.385,"text":"第十條的部分我先講一個大的picture的問題啦我延續著我在上一次審這個法案的時候我特別提醒司法院的部分這個稅務行政是健身的一方"},{"start":2439.997,"end":2454.55,"text":"要作為稅務行政事件在程序上面的特別法也就是在行政訴訟法之外要去規定一個程序上面的特別法它本身所承載的規範能量"},{"start":2456.977,"end":2483.519,"text":"到底有多少也就是必須要回到跟行政訴訟法所建立的原則去相比對才有辦法清楚的看得出來否則如果只是附述在行政訴訟法裡面的明文規範或者是說附述所謂附述就是重新講一次啦在行政訴訟裡面所本來已經建立的原理原則的話"},{"start":2484.704,"end":2496.471,"text":"那這樣子的特別規定就毫無意義即使你把它解釋成是一個注意性的提醒性的在程序法的規範上都毫無意義"},{"start":2498.069,"end":2522.739,"text":"在這樣的討論基礎之上我希望司法院慎重的去重新全盤考慮你們立了這部法實際上面的實意到底在哪裡實意到底在哪裡那當我說你們去立這部法實意到底在哪裡的時候大概有兩個觀察的角度跟視野"},{"start":2523.683,"end":2533.321,"text":"第一個觀察的角度跟視野是針對你們所聲稱要去解決的問題包括萬年稅單的問題"},{"start":2535.222,"end":2564.207,"text":"包括了擴大單一訴訟紛爭解決的功能希望相關的紛爭能夠徹底解決的這件事情事實上在過去的這段時間當中包括非常多專精說法的最高行政法院的法官法學的教授民間的團體都表達強烈質疑的態度這是第一點"},{"start":2565.783,"end":2591.611,"text":"第二個他們的質疑到底有道理還是沒有道理就會牽涉到稅務行政事件審理法在什麼樣子的程度範圍內針對行政訴訟法有有別於行政訴訟法而取向於在這一次稅務行政事件審理法裡面你們所要達成的立法目的而做的特別的規定"},{"start":2593.158,"end":2621.639,"text":"當你全部盤整完了以後當你全部盤整完了以後因為到目前為止整個稅務行政事件啊審理法你們大概總共全部規範的條文啊有33條33條33條的這個程序的特別法裡面你把前面什麼立法的目的稅務行政事件的範圍把前面跟後面"},{"start":2623.1,"end":2635.28,"text":"本法施行日期什麼時候施行等等掐頭去尾以後你冷靜的看我大概可以切成兩大部分一個是在稅務行政事件的審理原則"},{"start":2636.841,"end":2659.475,"text":"審理原則審理原則裡面到底有什麼特別規定所謂審理原則裡面到底有什麼特別規定指的是說我們採用的是職權主義是職權進行主義然後我們針對有關於在促進訴訟義務的失權效確定違反訴訟促進義務的失權效"},{"start":2666.397,"end":2685.068,"text":"在那邊從頭到尾看一看到底相對於行政訴訟法多了什麼特別的規定所說的那些多的特別規定真的是取向於這個稅務行政事件審理法所要達成的立法目的嗎"},{"start":2686.738,"end":2710.661,"text":"有嗎?還是無必要的去做了一些若干細微相期益的規定而導致在整個法解釋上面體系的混亂讓人家搞不懂讓人家搞不懂那第二個部分是什麼?第二個部分是說就你們所要確定的在判決確定了以後"},{"start":2712.669,"end":2718.952,"text":"確定判決所會產生計判力的客觀範圍因為當你要討論說我要擴大訴訟制度解決紛爭的功能的時候你勢必一定要處理的事情是就這個訴訟所會產生計判力的訴訟標的範圍"},{"start":2734.979,"end":2758.798,"text":"我們先假設啦 我們還是採取多數學說的看法就把計判力的客觀範圍跟訴訟標的範圍先把它劃成是同意先把它劃成是同意那當然你們如果在這個法典裡面會主張說計判力的客觀範圍跟訴訟標的範圍兩者是不一致的話也不是不行但是"},{"start":2760.305,"end":2779.637,"text":"到底有哪些取向於這個立法目的的特別規定我盤整完了以後我必須要老實講真的具有特殊性有必要做特殊規範的條文不超過五條不超過五條我已經全部盤點完了"},{"start":2780.805,"end":2809.586,"text":"在不超過五條的情況之下你們竟然去訂了一個稅務行政事件審理法一個專法來去處理有關於在行政訴訟裡面的審理原則要去做所謂的特別規定某個程度上面啊某個程度上面啊這一個稅務行政事件審理法不僅僅是雷聲大雨點小"},{"start":2811.445,"end":2835.868,"text":"看起來好像洋洋灑灑的有二三十條你實際上面去比對了以後你會發現真的有別於行政訴訟有必要去做特別規範的條文能量事實上是不超過五條甚至你們在裡面所做的一些特別的規定"},{"start":2837.403,"end":2856.357,"text":"到底是在促進納稅者權利的保護還是在傷害納稅者權利的保護這件事情恐怕在立法政策上面都還存在有相當大懷疑的空間那因此"},{"start":2858.103,"end":2878.819,"text":"我從第一次的詢答上一次的審理到今天我必須要很老實的跟司法院講我對於你們到底為什麼要訂這個稅務行政事件審理法老實說我是充滿了困惑因為我不知道他能達成什麼目的"},{"start":2879.844,"end":2902.542,"text":"我甚至在懷疑它所會產生的正面效益遠遠低於它所會帶來的負面效果我為什麼說它所產生的正面效益會低於它帶來的負面效果那個負面效果包括了我們之前一直有在爭執的針對於科稅處分以及針對於罰款處分"},{"start":2906.567,"end":2930.022,"text":"在最高行政法院已經形成了一個審理的基本原則的情況之下從賽制詢答的過程當中你們似乎是要透過這次的修法去變更那個最高行政法院它所已經表示過的法律見解那這樣子的改變"},{"start":2931.536,"end":2959.086,"text":"在罰還處分的時候不管你們怎麼去沿用2022年行政訴訟法的修正這樣子的變更到底是往保護納稅者權利的方向還是在傷害納稅者權利的方向那過去以最高行政法院的判決為基準的話在罰還處分的時候還沒有那麼多附帶的義務"},{"start":2961.623,"end":2977.277,"text":"結果到你們這次稅務行政事件審理法到時候法官在具體個案的時候說立法者在稅務行政事件審理法已經表達了立法者的意向跟立法者的政策選擇說在罰還處分的時候我們一樣"},{"start":2982.401,"end":3001.227,"text":"沒有所謂排除不自證己罪的權利沒有責以違清原則的適用變更了以前最高行政法院的看法那我們這一屆不管是設法法制委員會的委員甚至是全院的委員那背著責任之重啊"},{"start":3002.625,"end":3028.012,"text":"在這個法律裡面 納稅者以民為保護納稅者的名義所要通過的稅務行政事件審理法所產生最後的法律的效果運作的效果反而是在限縮限制納稅者的權利我完全沒有這個意圖我也根本不會同意這樣子的立法政策"},{"start":3029.249,"end":3044.427,"text":"所以我覺得就這整個法律案我必須要在這個時候清楚的強烈的表達到目前為止我看不到去立這個特別法的必要性"},{"start":3045.996,"end":3072.527,"text":"甚至我看不到去立這個特別法有辦法達成它所聲稱的強化納稅者權益保障的功能這兩件事情我都看不到這兩件事情我都看不到因為這兩件事情我都看不到所以我對於現在整個稅務行政事件審理法另外搞一個專法"},{"start":3074.039,"end":3096.277,"text":"另外搞一個專法的必要性我是保持強烈的保留的看法我是保持著強烈的保留的看法因為我不知道過了這樣子的專法到底促進了什麼納稅者權益的保護反而是在程序上面給這些納稅者給我們一般"},{"start":3100.714,"end":3127.022,"text":"在納稅的人民在程序上面更多不利的處分跟限縮所謂何來無法理解所謂何來無法理解那第二個在講完了整部法律我對於整部法律我所抱持的強烈保留的見解"},{"start":3129.281,"end":3136.044,"text":"我現在還沒到反對兩個字啦但我必須要跟你們講快要逐漸升級到反對了之後我們回來第十條看我來驗證我剛剛所講的是什麼意思因為有的時候啊"},{"start":3153.531,"end":3180.495,"text":"說一些衝向的訴訟法的原理原則跟在整個訴訟法的法典上面的安排上到底要有什麼可能對於一般沒有學訴訟法的人會有理解上的困難我們回到現在正在討論的第十條第十條在處理的是在稅務行政事件裡面停止執行或者訴訟程序停止"},{"start":3181.738,"end":3205.664,"text":"的制度在停止執行的制度上面我想要請教的第一個問題是第十條目前的規範跟目前在行政訴訟法裡面針對提起行政訴訟以後的停止執行兩者之間差別在哪裡差別的理由在哪裡"},{"start":3208.01,"end":3234.399,"text":"這個是我的第一個問題那為什麼會有這樣子的問題我們先具體的來看你們說在第二項我也先從第一項開始講啦原處分或決定的執行除法律另有規定外不應提起行政訴訟而停止第十條第一項的問題是說它規範的必要性何在現行的行政訴訟法不就採行這樣的原則嗎我有說錯嗎"},{"start":3238.419,"end":3239.662,"text":"先從第一項開始看好嗎第一項把它再寫一次的理由是什麼"},{"start":3253.757,"end":3271.241,"text":"黃委員要繼續是嗎沒有 我在等他回答好 那個我先跟委員說明一下那個 你兩個問題嘛因為不好意思啊 主席我的問題不需要您歸納我沒有歸納你現在我停下來就是在等他回答好 那讓他準備一下是 請他回答我跟委員會說明一下因為現在我們在針對第十條論因為委員剛到"},{"start":3273.402,"end":3279.967,"text":"那我們上回的處理呢因為那個黃委員有提議啊就是對11條到第16條以及第25條分別涉及到包括了這個"},{"start":3292.142,"end":3306.228,"text":"協力義務以及相關的事項所以我們全部都沒有處理那今天處理的就是除了這兩個部分以外的其他部分那麼因為我們上次處理到第十條那麼大家都是在"},{"start":3307.088,"end":3327.957,"text":"沒有討論那兩個部分的前提之下去討論稅審法那圖理到自納金的問題不過呢因為剛剛黃委員有說明了因為從包括了委員會的報告 詢答到公聽會以及大體討論那黃委員基本上是對稅審法整體的架構跟行政訴訟法的差異持保留態度那因為有在場委員在所以我們委員"},{"start":3329.898,"end":3340.28,"text":"我們就讓黃委員就這個比較屬於廣泛討論上位的整體架構的部分我們就請司法院列席機關來做說明好不好好那我們就請列席機關說明"},{"start":3345.247,"end":3347.829,"text":"主席還有委員長我先講一個大的方向就是呈黃委員所指教的沒錯這部法它有一個出發點是在貫徹人民的基本權利保障但是我們在關係文書上司法院也寫得很清楚就是除了這個之外這部法還有一個很重要的就是要維護依法科稅跟公平科稅原則"},{"start":3373.288,"end":3390.297,"text":"那所以很多的就是像那個總額還有像那個協力義務很多的這些規定事實上是從就是說要貫徹的依法科稅跟公平科稅這原則底下那個所那個下來的那另外就是有關於就是說那個立法體現的問題確實沒有錯就是說"},{"start":3393.418,"end":3420.972,"text":"那所以就是這部稅審法呢它是做了一些特別規定那為什麼我們會看到說在行政訴訟法呢也會有同樣的那個有一些那個重複規定那是為了就是讓整個體系那個清楚啊就是說像在那個第十條第一項跟第二項這個確實是有那個重複規定可是就是說它的那個第三項這個地方呢它一個例外的一個規定就是說它這時候呢"},{"start":3422.052,"end":3443.321,"text":"必要的時候呢是要提供那個擔保後那個停止執行了這是一個特別規定我只是舉例但是你突然這樣子一個規定之後他會讓整個那個體系看起來非常那個奇怪那所以呢就是說又把它那個重複在第一項跟第二項那我只是簡單的做一個簡單說明那等一下由那個陳庭長繼續好陳庭長請說明"},{"start":3448.57,"end":3469.048,"text":"關於丁丁這部專法的必要性那謝謝委員的指教那我想這部專法有它的必要性其實它的特殊點也就是我們這部法案的亮點我覺得應該就是我們在納保法要求總額主義也就是在一次的稅務紛爭裡面法院必須具體來認定"},{"start":3470.809,"end":3489.558,"text":"你應該繳的稅額到底是多少錢法院你就要核實去認定下來不要讓案件來來回回在行政機關之間在行政機關跟法院之間所以我們在納保法規定的基礎上進而"},{"start":3490.818,"end":3510.38,"text":"去增加了一些的條文就是要來落實總額主義在訴訟上建構了這些的配套措施這些的配套措施是一般行政訴訟法所沒有的所以我們必須有訂定專法的必要"},{"start":3512.261,"end":3528.249,"text":"我想這個是一個簡單的回應那至於委員剛才有指教的就是說我們這部法好像對納稅者權利的保護好像似乎其實是不夠的或者是沒有的那我想"},{"start":3528.709,"end":3553.804,"text":"其實這一部法律確實是要保障納稅者的權利因為納稅者有依據法律納稅這是他的權利也是義務這是納保法明文規定的所以他依據法律到底該納多少的稅我想這是法院的責任我們有權我們有義務來核實的認定那至於"},{"start":3554.844,"end":3581.502,"text":"為什麼委員剛才有講說我們好像這部法裡面有增加了一些的協力義務是更不利益於納稅義務人士行政訴訟法所沒有的那我想其實這裡是有誤解的因為我們有做了一個比較目前我們本草案的十一十二條十三條的這一些"},{"start":3582.543,"end":3589.347,"text":"科與納稅義務人的協力義務其實在行政訴訟法裡面122條、125條之一166到168條、121條這一些都有協力義務的規定其實並沒有新科與納稅義務人新增的一個協力義務"},{"start":3607.796,"end":3626.866,"text":"只是這一部法他想要強化納稅義務人的協力義務所以在法律效果上有一部分可能是比較強的教諸於現行的行政訴訟法有一些是比較強的一個效果的規定但是"},{"start":3627.906,"end":3641.351,"text":"這個比較強的效果的規定也不排除法官可以回歸適用到行政訴訟法相關法律效果的規定也就是說其實我們在給法官了好幾項選擇的工具"},{"start":3643.212,"end":3666.057,"text":"他可以怎麼樣去做去督促納稅義務人來履行他的這個協力義務那這是我想要先釐清的那關於委員剛才講說在處罰處分這一塊沒有協力義務的適用並且舉了最高行政法院的一些的裁判那我想"},{"start":3666.957,"end":3682.994,"text":"那我們去搜尋看檢視的結果其實表示相關法律見解的這幾個判決都是同一位法官的法律見解那至於其他的"},{"start":3683.934,"end":3710.544,"text":"法官或其他的庭最高行政法院其他庭我們目前沒有檢索出來也表示一樣的見解所以這是不是在修法之前實務上穩定並一致的見解我們不敢這麼說因為我們沒有檢索到其他的法官或者是其他的審判庭有表示同樣的見解另外其實就如上次所講的"},{"start":3711.204,"end":3738.489,"text":"行政訴訟法125條在111年已經修正了它就是有增訂一個協力義務的規定而這個協力義務是一個一般性原則的規定它並沒有去區分說處罰處分就不適用或者是哪一種的處分就不適用協力義務那我想這是必須先說明的而且另外我們想要強調的是說"},{"start":3740.709,"end":3766.397,"text":"關於協力義務的這一個要求就是因為它在行政法領域公法領域的特殊性它所謂的特殊性也就是之前我有跟各位委員報告就是我們行政訴訟它不僅僅是要保障當事人的訴訟權益它也是要在確保國家行政權的合法行使"},{"start":3767.477,"end":3787.987,"text":"所以在行政訴訟領域我們才沒有像民事訴訟一樣當事人可以就自認就對照主張自認不爭執就不用經過舉證就可以認定這個事實是真實我們沒有這樣子一個適用那我們也沒有訴訟標的的認諾也就是說今天你只要認"},{"start":3789.968,"end":3810.797,"text":"認為說原告只要認諾他就會收到敗訴的判決所以在行政訴訟並沒有這樣子的一些像民事訴訟的這些規定的適用目的就是因為他是要確保國家行政權的合法行使"},{"start":3811.277,"end":3833.735,"text":"因此事實的真相到底是如何在行政法的領域是很重要的一件事情而事實的真相不能夠光只靠法院來職權調查因為法院職權調查有它的限制那我們又不像刑事訴訟它有搜索扣押這種強制處分"},{"start":3835.857,"end":3858.676,"text":"的規定所以我們就特別強調在發現事實的這一塊當事人有協力義務協助法院來一起發現事實究竟是如何法院才能據而判斷行政機關行政權的行使是不是合法的"},{"start":3859.136,"end":3886.638,"text":"那我想這一個竭力義務的要求其實它是貫穿在行政法各個領域都有相關的規定那就舉例像今天早上就看到新聞說某一個高檔的餐廳好像顧客去吃了之後就上吐下瀉就有這種情況所以主管機關立刻就介入去調查然後而且就"},{"start":3887.338,"end":3910.008,"text":"可以要求業者你要提供相關的一些的資料那如果所以這個時候相關業者就有提供資料就有提供一些文書證據資料的義務當主管機關查核發現你確實有疏失的時候他接著就做了一個行政處罰所以我想這樣子一個"},{"start":3911.369,"end":3935.808,"text":"這種的例子這種的規定在行政法各個領域其實是非常普遍的一個情形那進而拉到我們的稅務領域來講其實在稅捐基增法稅捐機關在行政調查的時候他的稅捐基增法就有明文的規定這個時候他可以通知"},{"start":3937.049,"end":3955.848,"text":"當事人他提出文書、帳簿、憑證這些的資料而且你也可以通知他到場來接受稅捐調查人員的備詢,也就是接受詢問如果他無正當理由違反這些的話"},{"start":3957.436,"end":3974.149,"text":"稅捐激增法進而有一個處罰的規定還會處當事人罰還那我想在稅捐激增的這個行政調查領域其實他都已經科與當事人一些的協力義務如果你違反他也有一些處罰的規定"},{"start":3975.61,"end":3999.213,"text":"那這個協力義務延伸到訴訟程序上來我們到訴訟程序上來要求當事人一樣的提出這些的證據資料我想這樣邏輯才會是一貫的啊不能你在行政調查程序有這些義務反而到訴訟中沒有這些義務而且我們所要求"},{"start":4001.035,"end":4013.682,"text":"我們本法所要求當事人提出的這些文書證據資料必須是依照法律規定他本來就有提供到稅捐機關或其他行政機關的義務"},{"start":4015.903,"end":4037.358,"text":"這是因為其他法律已經規定你有這個提出的義務那所以我們在這個基礎上要求你在訴訟中就是因為你在前階段你沒有提出那我們在訴訟程序中認為有必要要求你提出你原本依法就應該要提出的這些相關的證據資料我想這個也沒有"},{"start":4038.679,"end":4054.054,"text":"更超過其他法律的規定那這是我想關於協力義務的這一塊的補充那如果回歸到我們本條第十條的規定來講的話那其實第十條的規定"},{"start":4056.115,"end":4078.926,"text":"是應該可以說是我們參照稅務事件的特性量身打造的一個規定那當然他的第一項跟第二項是目前既有的規定或者是我們整合了訴願法跟目前行政訴訟法的相關規定把停止裁定"},{"start":4082.403,"end":4109.804,"text":"才定停止執行的要件把它整合與以民文化這是目前行政訴訟法跟訴願法的規定以及實務的見解實務的做法就是如此但是接著後面從第三項以下的一些的規定其實是我們研修團隊參考了德國的財務法院法的規定就這個"},{"start":4110.865,"end":4138.302,"text":"停止執行的這樣一個暫時權力保護的措施所做的一個優化的規定也就是在我們一般的行政訴訟當停止執行的時候是沒有公擔保停止執行的這個制度那我們考慮到為了要確保國家的財政的稅收的穩定那我們明定說這個時候是可以命"},{"start":4138.962,"end":4161.284,"text":"他向原處分機關提供擔保以後才強制執行那第四項的規定第四項的規定是說考慮到法院的負荷的能量所以如果今天這個案件還沒有訴訟細數在法院就有先申請停止執行的必要"},{"start":4162.204,"end":4187.125,"text":"這個時候原則上你應該是向行政機關去申請當行政機關拒絕的時候你才能夠到法院來申請或者是我們但書所列的這三款的例外的事由的時候你才可以直接向法院申請那我想最特別的應該是第六項我想要特別強調的是我們這裡的停止執行"},{"start":4188.306,"end":4209.447,"text":"並不單單只是停止強制執行的程序而已我們停止的是原處分的效力把這個原來行政處分的效力都把它停了還有就停止的是執行的程序或者是程序的續行基於這個原來"},{"start":4210.448,"end":4234.895,"text":"處分後續的 續刑的程序也都一併停止所以這裡停止執行的效力其實是 範圍是比較大的不光是強制執行程序的停止而已那也就正是因為我們把原處分的效力一併停止因此就會產生出說"},{"start":4237.217,"end":4255.013,"text":"致納金,而且我們這邊的致納金是針對稅捐基深法20條所規定的致納金,也就是我可以講完嗎?因為還沒講到第9項,第9項上次的針點第10項"},{"start":4260.694,"end":4275.394,"text":"第十項我們針點的是第十項我要講第十項就是因為先要釐清的是第六項我們停止執行的效力其實是包含原行政處分的效力的那所以因此第十條的規定就是"},{"start":4275.774,"end":4290.139,"text":"在講到滯納金的問題那這裡的滯納金我們是指稅捐基增法20條的滯納金也就是依照稅法的規定如果你預期繳納稅捐因此科徵的滯納金"},{"start":4291.559,"end":4306.566,"text":"在這裡科徵的自納金其實是非常高的它是三天就要科徵你研製繳納金額的百分之一換句話說也就是三十天一個月是百分之十"},{"start":4307.566,"end":4333.025,"text":"的滯納金所以這裡柯真的滯納金是非常重的因為我們考量到說滯納金其實他只是要督促當事人履行他繳納的義務而已但是如果今天法院已經下了一個停止執行的裁定把原處分的效力都停止凍結住那這個時候呢我們就參考了德國財務"},{"start":4334.948,"end":4340.344,"text":"德国财务法院法的规定认为说你就已经他就没有所谓的"},{"start":4341.966,"end":4369.758,"text":"延遲繳納的問題啊因為你這個原來命他的科稅處分效率都被凍結了他就沒有預期繳納的問題因此我們就認為說那這時候是不是不應該科徵他滯納金呢而且應該把他以前所繳納的這一些的稅款都一併回復原狀退還給當事人所以其實這個是這個我們法治的基本"},{"start":4370.838,"end":4396.623,"text":"這一條的基本的觀念那第十條規定的是說行政法院裁定原處分停止執行期間不得科增滯納金那各位如果只看這個條文很可能只會陷入說是不是法院裁定停止以後的這一段期間才沒有滯納金的問題那我們想要跟各位講的是說"},{"start":4397.723,"end":4412.411,"text":"如果各位手上有這一張圖表的話這個下面的部分下半段是司法院的版本也就是根據我們第十條但書的第二款的規定"},{"start":4413.871,"end":4430.445,"text":"他是分已徵起稅款還是未徵起稅款如果是未徵起稅款你這個稅款都沒有繳納過的話那這個就是本來就應該從你原因繳納期間屆滿的次日一直到填發訴訟終結後填發"},{"start":4433.168,"end":4452.685,"text":"填發補繳稅款的繳納通知書之日子也就是說這個時間會拉到最前面的時間一直到最後面他去發了一個判決確定之後他去填發繳款書之日子這一段的時間我們都是用這個"},{"start":4454.847,"end":4476.866,"text":"停止執行的利息也就是我們本項規定的利息來取代滯納金是因為我們的想法是說你就是因為沒有繳納稅款那你讓你延遲到最後繳納而且你是敗訴所以應該回歸到你原來應該繳納的時間這一段你至少要付利息"},{"start":4478.528,"end":4506.107,"text":"雖然不用繳支納金但是要付利息所以其實它整個時段不會是從裁定停止之日起所以它會拉到最前面的這個時點那第一款的規定是說以增期稅款那當然我們不曉得以增期的稅款時間點是什麼它可能是落在前面的任何一個時點所以如果是以增期稅款的話就會從退還之日"},{"start":4507.628,"end":4527.219,"text":"到填發這個繳納通知書之日子這一段這一段來計爭這個我們本項規定的利息那至於它前面的這一些為什麼不再爭了呢是因為你爭取就是你本來就已經有繳納了我只是不知道你時間點是在哪一個時間繳納"},{"start":4528.26,"end":4551.09,"text":"但你繳納之後其實國家就收了這一筆的稅款那理論上國家就可以應用啊至少有法定支息嘛國家那所以就不用納稅醫務人在遭受敗訴確定之後再回頭來繳這一段的利息那這是我以上初步的說明謝謝好那麼請黃委員那其他委員對於其他部分好可以接續詢問來請"},{"start":4553.325,"end":4581.852,"text":"那個剛剛司法院的代表拉拉扎扎講了一堆讓問題根本就沒有辦法聚焦今天請你來是針對問題回答的倒不是請你來這邊發表演說的請司法院的代表在回答問題的時候先注意這個基本原則第一個我先從總體上面來講你的這個特色就是要採取種族主義的原則"},{"start":4583.188,"end":4611.378,"text":"你要擴大這個訴訟及判例的客觀範圍達到紛爭解決一次性的要求所以你回去檢視一下嘛我先姑且不論你現在的條文有沒有滿足這樣的立法目的甚至在試圖要達到這樣子立法目的的時候有沒有注意到當事人程序權的保障這些我都姑且不論你回去盤點看看為了要達到你所謂的總和主義"},{"start":4612.908,"end":4637.528,"text":"這樣子的立法目的你動用了幾個條文你動用了幾個條文那這幾個條文有辦法正當化要求本院給你們一個審理的特別法喔我是打一個超級大的問號那第二個部分就有關當事人的協力義務啊等等等等你講了一堆我總結來"},{"start":4640.295,"end":4668.292,"text":"簡單的回覆啊 簡單的語語回覆啊行政訴訟的目的當然就是從當事人權力救濟保障的觀點再加上國家行政權的合法行使本來就是這樣嘛不管在哪一個脈絡的行政訴訟其目的都是這個東西嘛這個有什麼好說的稅務行政事件到底有何不同"},{"start":4670.189,"end":4689.839,"text":"當你要去強調它不僅僅是當事人的權力救濟還包括了國家公權力行為的合法行使的時候我們從抽象的法理論進入了法實務所有的人問的第一個問題是在您所指涉的細貞領域範圍當中我們現在存在的"},{"start":4694.341,"end":4719.277,"text":"到底是over enforcement還是under enforcement什麼意思 我再講得更具體一點在你這個特定的領域當中是存在的是國家的公權力的合法行使的這個目標沒有實現它所產生的狀況是當事人權益的損害還是國家稅收的減損"},{"start":4722.008,"end":4743.841,"text":"你要處理的到底是哪一個側面的問題這個就是over enforcement under enforcement的問題回到現實的社會上面來看一般的人民一般的納稅者大家在抱怨的是什麼大家在抱怨的是國家科稅的權利跟為了要科稅所做的伴隨的"},{"start":4745.782,"end":4766.377,"text":"強制的行政行為非常的強啊非常的強啊那沒有under enforcement的問題啊全部都是over enforcement的問題啊在這樣的情況之下你相應的回到你要處理的狀況是什麼你要回到處理的狀況是你要怎麼強化納稅者權利的保護啊"},{"start":4767.037,"end":4788.338,"text":"而不是回過頭來講說這個是要克制國家公權力的合法行使克制國家公權力的合法行使如果現在所產生的狀況是對於納稅者的基本權在實務上面不管是實體上還是程序上所造成的侵害是普遍的而且是人民不滿的"},{"start":4790.107,"end":4812.384,"text":"這個時候你在稅務事件審理法所謂的特殊性你就要取向於這個實務問題的解決也就是怎麼強化納稅者權利的保護第三個部分你剛剛援引了一堆在行政法規當中針對科稅的處分有調查權如何如何的你講的完全沒錯啊你講的完全沒錯啊"},{"start":4814.226,"end":4827.215,"text":"第一個階段國家在形成行政處分的過程當中我們的立法者從過去到現在給了行政機關多大的行政調查權力法律給行政機關的行政調查權力還不夠大可以做的事情多了這麼大的行政調查權力"},{"start":4842.442,"end":4863.078,"text":"稅捐基金機關動用了國家所賦予的行政調查權利去蒐集證據去調查事實最後做出了一個什麼 行政處分針對那個行政處分的合法性跟那個行政處分所應該具有的基礎事實行政機關當然要負責任啊要不然我前面給你那麼大的權利要幹嘛"},{"start":4872.54,"end":4880.668,"text":"就是行政機關所做出來的這個行政處分人民不滿嘛我才會去尋求什麼行政救濟啊這不是最簡單的原則嗎那所以剛剛按照司法院論述的標準我已經快要聽不下去啦你是不是對於行政救濟制度啊的定位"},{"start":4899.025,"end":4920.405,"text":"有根本制度功能上面的誤認如果連司法院的官員甚至當過行政法院法官的都是這樣認定的話那難怪啊為什麼行政法院會被稱為敗訴法院人民在那邊找不到正義找不到救濟啊"},{"start":4923.083,"end":4941.428,"text":"我再說一次啊立法者已經給行政機關特別是稅務機關啊一拖拉鼓行政調查的權利啊對人民對於納稅者那些公權力的行使壓迫感大不大強制力強不強每一個被追稅過的人啊心裡都有答案"},{"start":4950.283,"end":4976.144,"text":"壓迫感非常的大對他們的生活所會造成的影響非常的強烈結果給你們搞了半天行政機關有多少人動用所有的在行政機關內部的行政人員行使立法者給他們的調查權搞了半天做一個行政處分出來了以後人民尋求救濟"},{"start":4977.628,"end":4998.187,"text":"行政機關在行政徵送在行政救濟程序上面該負的責任是什麼去證明我當初所做的行政處分是有憑有據的怎麼會把人民在行政處分做成前階段在公法上面所負有的配合義務繼續延伸到訴訟上來在訴訟上"},{"start":5003.516,"end":5023.741,"text":"人民面對的是一整個政府一整個行政機關前面已經被你調查成這個樣子你做成行政處分我質疑你行政處分的合法性我質疑你做成這個行政處分的事實基礎結果我到訴訟上還有配合你行政機關"},{"start":5026.961,"end":5053.223,"text":"從你在行政處分做成前的實體法規我的配合調查還要繼續延伸到行政訴訟那難怪人民在行政法院裡面輸到脫褲子啊那這個就是為什麼人民對我們現在在行政遵送程序當中到底有沒有辦法真的捍衛人民的權利大家所抱持的質疑嘛"},{"start":5055.168,"end":5064.212,"text":"特別是在稅務訴訟的領域當中稅法很複雜耶一個人民啊面對一群在搞稅務行政處分的行政官一群耶還有調查權耶結果你們搞了半天做了行政處分出來我到人民到法院是要救濟的耶請問你現在跟人民講NO NO NO NO NO"},{"start":5087.062,"end":5108.291,"text":"你還有很多配合義務啊你沒有履行那個配合義務在訴訟上面還有不利的法律效果我老實講真的人民到那個時候只剩下回家抱著棉被褲啊這個是我跟你們今天所採取的立場根本不同之處"},{"start":5110.424,"end":5137.062,"text":"我們可以有不同的價值選擇這個就是為什麼在立法院要經過審議討論嘛在行政訴訟法裡面有很多大家每個大家都有自己的一套理論我個人都尊重學者在追求的是學術上面的精益求精每一個有每一個人的學說我都尊重"},{"start":5138.072,"end":5166.104,"text":"回到立法院來就是政策選擇我今天可以很清楚的跟司法院講在這件事情上面我跟你們所採取的立場完全不一樣因此我對於你們試圖在稅務行政事件審理法所做這樣的處理我無法認同這樣我相信話講得很白了當然我黃國昌今天在司法法制委員會做這麼直白的"},{"start":5167.904,"end":5194.507,"text":"政策立場跟價值選擇的表明我要承擔政治責任公民看完了我的發言覺得黃國昌你無理取鬧人家司法院講得很棒啊非常的有道理啊在稅務行政訴訟事件當中即使是罰還處分人民在訴訟程序本來就應該有協力義務沒有盡到那個協力義務給你不利的法律效果怕你輸剛好而已"},{"start":5195.612,"end":5223.568,"text":"可能有人抱持這樣的看法我尊重但我相信有更多的一群人是完全不認同這樣的價值選擇而我們作為民意代表就是要在這邊幫他們發聲第三個部分講到具體的部分就來講我已經提示你們很多次了來來來來來現在講到第十條第十條第一項你們承認是行政訴訟重複規範"},{"start":5226.038,"end":5252.657,"text":"原署份或決定的執行處法律例有規定外不應提起行政訴訟而停止這個是行政訴訟法的ABC本來的基本原則你這裡的規定跟行政訴訟法一模一樣沒什麼好說的現在來看第二項行政訴訟起訴前或系署中有下列情況行政法院可以依申請裁定停止執行來把依申請三個字劃起來把依申請三個字劃起來"},{"start":5258.741,"end":5280.451,"text":"來再看一下我們行政訴訟法行政訴訟法116條第二項行政訴訟系屬中行政法院如任委員處分或決定之執行將發生難以回復的損害且有急迫的情勢那這個跟你們第二項的第二款的事有差不多嗎行政訴訟法是得依職權或依申請裁定停止執行"},{"start":5281.584,"end":5307.043,"text":"那我現在要請教在稅務行政訴訟當中有什麼樣的特殊性把依職權三個字刪掉有什麼樣的特殊性我打破腦袋我想不懂啊一個行政法院在稅務事件當中發生了原處分他的合法性有狀況有急迫的情勢他為什麼不可以依職權我們一項一項來啦"},{"start":5312.629,"end":5332.957,"text":"我其實上一次我已經跟你們講過 要你們回去盤點結果今天來一樣浪費大家一堆時間在那邊講有的沒有的從ABC開始重新講謝謝 因為委員提出的是第10條的第"},{"start":5336.24,"end":5359.198,"text":"二項當中跟行政訴訟法第116條的第二項的差異那麼跟委員報告我們上次討論的是第十條的第十項的不得課徵自納金那剛剛列席官代表呢也就他們對於不得課徵自納金的原則原理做了說明那的確我們委員對於第十條的各項都可以提出那事實上剛剛呢"},{"start":5360.318,"end":5370.604,"text":"黃委員提出的那個包括一稅申法提起行政訴訟後和行政訴訟的相關規定的效力到底有何關聯其實本席也很想知道因為這跟第十條第十項不得客徵滯納金的原則原理是有關聯的那現在呢"},{"start":5375.306,"end":5399.972,"text":"黃委員又提出了這個第二項的部分醫生請那為了什麼醫職權的部分這個是不是請說明一下那當然是不是也可以就剛剛黃委員在前一輪發言當中至少我這邊聽到如果說當事人依稅審法提起行政訴訟後提起這個訴訟後和行政訴訟它的效力和行政訴訟的效力有什麼差別"},{"start":5401.144,"end":5413.395,"text":"我再講一次就是剛剛在前一輪的提問當中有提到當事人依稅審法提起訴訟後那麼這樣的一個前面的裁定的效力和"},{"start":5414.741,"end":5424.149,"text":"依行政訴訟法提出的這個規定有什麼差別啦因為我們現在本來第十項在處理滯納金嘛那滯納金你們剛剛前面講了嘛為什麼你們認為他停徵的這個時點呢要是用你們圖示的這個樣目那現在呢請就這兩個部分分別說明一個是黃委員剛剛講的根據行政訴訟法第二項的相關的規定抑制權為什麼這裡沒有第二個是你們剛剛講的這個表啊"},{"start":5450.007,"end":5469.797,"text":"我先回答黃委員的問題就是關於行政訴訟法停止執行116條的第二項確實是規定說可以依職權或依申請來裁定停止執行但是因為我們考量到說實務上目前停止執行全部都是依申請"},{"start":5471.813,"end":5496.094,"text":"我們還沒有看過依職權的那所以因此呢在這裡考量到因此在這裡就把它規定成為依申請不好意思喔我可以繼續追問嗎你說實務上全部都是依申請那代表的是什麼代表了我們現在的行政法院的法官無視立法者在行政訴訟法上面所為的介面"},{"start":5497.133,"end":5522.051,"text":"要求他們對於原行政處分的合法性是不是顯有疑義是不是有急迫的情況為職務上的注意嗎是不是代表了我們現在你剛所講的你們會寫成這樣是因為實務上都是依申請沒有依職權那我聽到這個就大驚失色啦立法者在行政訴訟法給所有行政法官的借命是什麼"},{"start":5523.038,"end":5551.868,"text":"也就是行政法院的法官應該遵守的行為規範是什麼你們必須要依照職權去注意原刑尊處分的合法性是不是顯有問題是不是有依職權停止執行的必要那如果你這樣講的話等於司法院今天在立法院承認了行政法院的法官把立法者在行政訴訟法裡面所科與行政法院法官依照職權加以顧慮的義務全部都是當成空氣"},{"start":5554.588,"end":5575.338,"text":"然後先被你們全部當成空氣再回來稅務事件審理法藉由我們的修法來正當化你們把當初立法者在行政訴訟法對行政法院法官所為的借命當成空氣那你是在陷我們現在所有在審這個法案的委員於不義嗎"},{"start":5577.739,"end":5595.848,"text":"請回答是為什麼沒有依照一職權這三個字也放進去報告委員是因為目前行政訴訟法116條的停止執行的要件他是只有明定說必須發生難以回復的損害而且有急迫情形"},{"start":5598.686,"end":5623.809,"text":"那這個所以到底有沒有難以回復的損害或有沒有怎麼樣一個急迫情形其實法院是無從得知的那所以其實當有這種要件事實發生的時候就會出當事人就會促成當事人來申請法院他主張說有這一些的要件那所以因此在實務上我們才比較會常看到的是當事人申請"},{"start":5624.749,"end":5647.331,"text":"他主張他已經符合了這一些要件那法院來加以判斷那至於第一款就是說合法性嫌有異議這個是規定在訴願法裡面那我們這一次是把訴願法的這個規定然後把它加到我們這一個停止執行的要件之一以上報告"},{"start":5648.676,"end":5675.259,"text":"您的意思是說在稅務行政事件當中不會有發生難以回復的損害或有急迫的情勢是這個意思嗎因為聽起來不是是因為委員剛才是說為什麼我們沒有依職權因為本來法條是規定依職權或依申請那我剛才回答是說因為我們實務上目前大部分都是依申請來裁定停止執行那我要回答的只是就是說因為"},{"start":5676.52,"end":5696,"text":"目前行政訴訟法116條規定的要件它是要有會發生難以回復的損害或者是有急迫的情形那這種應該是當事人知道的最清楚當他有遇到這種情形的話他就會覺得他有申請裁定停止執行的必要"},{"start":5696.4,"end":5717.199,"text":"所以他就會跟法院提出申請所以是因此我們在實務上比較目前看到的都是當事人申請因為法院實在很難以依職權去查之說是不是有難以回復的損害就是最後一句你認為法院難以依職權去了解當事人有難以回復的損害這個意思嗎來 黃委員"},{"start":5720.425,"end":5748.019,"text":"我先確定喔 因為在你剛剛的陳述喔出現了兩種不同版本的陳述一個是全部目前都是醫生請一個是大部分都是醫生請請問是全部醫生請還是大部分醫生請 說清楚先停一下你沒有做查證的工作 你坐在立法院裡面信口開河喔"},{"start":5751.212,"end":5769.719,"text":"不好意思請你把喇叭按起來抱歉不是啊 你沒有辦法把你個人的經驗普遍化所有的狀況啊這個不是最基本的嗎那否則的話司法院要做什麼實證調查你就隨機抽一個法官來問他的審判經驗就好啦"},{"start":5771.074,"end":5793.05,"text":"報告委員 那因為我們稅審法的研修會研修委員也有很多最高型中層法院所以嘛 你先不要推到其他委員會去啦你講到委員會的話 我就會回到上一次的問題啦你委員會的記錄到底有沒有要交出來啊報告委員我們早就交了是不是 沒關係啦 回來回來我們繼續往下走"},{"start":5797.065,"end":5811.912,"text":"所以是大部分一申請還是全部一申請先回答這個問題因為我很在意啊如果是全部一申請的話那現在的行政訴訟法現在的行政訴訟法那個一職權不就淪為巨文了嗎"},{"start":5814.346,"end":5833.157,"text":"請司法院因為剛剛委員是很嚴肅的在請教這個問題因為我也很清楚聽到一開始我們在炒你這個條文的時候是說過去在稅務行政事件上行政法院並未有過依職權來進行行政訴訟法停止執行的裁定"},{"start":5833.877,"end":5855.103,"text":"但是現在黃委員非常關心 那還是請你們去查明一下不過剛剛我們追問的意思是說因為似乎有難以回復的情況認為在稅務行政事件上法院不太可能知道而依職務支持權去停止執行你們是這個意思那因為剛剛莊委員舉手了 我們聽聽莊委員的意見"},{"start":5858.504,"end":5877.513,"text":"其實我的看法是這樣 光黃委員的說法這個部分我也認為有一部分對但有一部分其實我有不同的看法啦你像譬如說你在講說我們是借命義務 那是立法者的一個借命我倒不認為"},{"start":5878.573,"end":5893.574,"text":"我倒認為是整個程序上的法源本來就得依職權這是立法者授給我們這個整個法官你可以去做的倒不是說這叫立法者的一個借命啦所以這個部分我倒認為 聽到這樣"},{"start":5895.717,"end":5921.046,"text":"你剛剛的講法才是對的啦黃委員這個講法我是比較不贊同啦但就是涉及到你在第10條裡面喔我們大家一直在爭執說整個行政法院在整個行政訴訟裡面你到底當事人的協力義務你知道有時候你法官在指揮訴訟你常常有時候你要去問當事人要去問當事人要調查事情到底行政法院到底是說你一定是要依職權職域去進行"},{"start":5922.626,"end":5937.993,"text":"還是很單純的這個是整個法官就站在聽訟完全是讓當事人去做一個進行因為涉及到國家的一個科稅那這樣的一個高權行為裡面你到最後你法院行政法院要一次來做這樣的一個解決的話過去來講的話大家都認為行政法院是一個敗訴的一個法院理由也很多啦有些案件"},{"start":5949.198,"end":5964.46,"text":"到底行政法院實際上是不是可以完全像一般普通法院這樣把案子審理得很清楚我自己過去一些案子我都非常存疑啦但是呢今天我倒要跟主席建議的是"},{"start":5966.022,"end":5987.712,"text":"你如果硬怕,你如果調人走不下去的,你就跟電話一樣嘛,我們就跟他做一些保留嘛。那其實如果廳長裡面也可以,或者副院長裡面也可以反過來,換個角度,到委員會裡面啊,當然未必要那麼強勢,那你就把它當成,"},{"start":5989.107,"end":6011.228,"text":"把他當成,你看指揮訴訟一樣,你給他纏綿一下,說你們在留意其實你們是錯的,我知道你們不好意思去講啦,不好意思這樣去講因為立法院在這邊講的會比較抽象,會比較抽象沒有辦法去進入整個很具體的東西啦,不然剛才我看,社長你也在這"},{"start":6012.629,"end":6035.041,"text":"市長其實你也可以用你的經驗來做一個分享沒有必要去陷入這樣子抽象的一個循環的論斷不然這樣沒完沒了那因為委員跟委員之間大家互相拍謝吐槽像比如說我講 翁委員就跟我笑一笑他也不好意思跟我說我講的不對他講完我也跟他說 不錯 笑一下他也不知道我在說什麼"},{"start":6037.262,"end":6040.225,"text":"所以你也要喊喊嘛 你們親自聽聽就好這大家說完了 大家每一個人變成大家在行使他的職權的時候有的"},{"start":6049.025,"end":6052.647,"text":"平常不專業但突然某一個部分會變得很專業因為他有準備有時候是很專業那突然沒睡醒或者心情受到影響來了也會失去那個準頭都有可能但反而司法院我反而會認為說你們是身經百戰的那未必在"},{"start":6069.758,"end":6093.584,"text":"在司法法治委員會把立法委員當學生這可能你們也未必會這樣敢這樣去做但是也是該背不抗把整個在整個訴訟過程裡面你們過去整個養成裡面這一些這麼豐富的一個經驗就大膽去講那我再看今天因為大家談的都是比較抽象的一個概念幾乎都是回顧到整個大體討論的那你回顧到大體討論你說這原理原則"},{"start":6097.985,"end":6125.268,"text":"講不清了啦就講不清了啦就像譬如說一個立法裡面像昨天你們大家在談的說日本有這樣的規定啦那台灣我們為什麼日本人是瘋子喔日本人是笨蛋喔人家會這樣定那我們當然也要去學人家這句話我也常講的啊我也常在舉說那德國也是這樣規定的跟我們就不一樣啦所以會各取所需會各取所需那所以走不下去的話我就建議啊就都先給它保留了"},{"start":6127.014,"end":6130.898,"text":"本來我們上次委員會就依黃委員的建議剛離開的黃委員的建議他就11條到16條是因為涉及到當事人協力義務的部分這個他很有意見所以我們那時候沒有處理"},{"start":6149.736,"end":6176.389,"text":"然後相關的稅審官的設置在第25條我們也完全沒有處理因此今天我們是就上次有處理的第10條暫保留的部分的第10項不得課徵自納金因為這個爭點財政部跟司法院有不同的見解所以我當時主席的做法就是請兩邊的列席機關回去就"},{"start":6176.969,"end":6197.754,"text":"不得課徵自納金的部分來闡述提出他們的看法跟主張那今天會議開始我就報告了因為這第十條上次有較多委員有不同意見機關也有不同的看法所以我們就先從第十條第十項的爭點不過因為委員一到場的時候就有在就所謂的協力勿誤進行闡述"},{"start":6199.995,"end":6224.961,"text":"甚至對整個稅審法既然有行政訴訟法為什麼還有稅審法的專法的制定表達了意見所以就成如剛剛莊委員所說的有一點呢我們進入到第十條在關切第十項的時候有委員還是回到整個大體討論的思維裡面去討論本法跟行政訴訟法的一些關聯也才會有剛剛進入到第十條的"},{"start":6226.401,"end":6232.33,"text":"二項那麼所謂的這個依職權為什麼不見了因為在行政訴訟法是116條是有依職權可以提出我們這邊只剩下依申請來去討論說那到底未來行政法院在稅審法可不可以依職權"},{"start":6242.984,"end":6262.843,"text":"就有察覺到他有難以回復的損害因此就開始給他法院這個權利來停止執行是在討論這個爭點那麼因為現在有兩個一個是上次延續下來的財政部也準備好了一個是今天提出來的一個是第十條的第二項是否應該把"},{"start":6264.284,"end":6282.859,"text":"依職權或依申請同樣的融入到我們第十條第二項以及剛剛其實司法院也有講了就第十條的第十項為什麼不得課登自納金他們的原理是什麼也做了闡述了那現在就尋求委員會翁委員您是要就第二項還是就第十項好那麼就第十項的部分請"},{"start":6288.664,"end":6300.454,"text":"我不是第四 我是就第十條剛才是對就剛剛講的那個第二項其實雖然說剛剛主席有講說這個看起來我們剛討論似乎又回到之前的大體討論在比較稅審法"},{"start":6303.376,"end":6308.758,"text":"跟行政訴訟法之間的這個關係但是呢確實從第十條以下有諸多的條文的規定都是明顯和現在的行政訴訟法的規定有別那麼這也讓我們就認為說有沒有必要在稅審法這邊額外去做一些規定而且呢看起來有些規定呢是不見得是利於當事人的那以剛剛"},{"start":6329.984,"end":6345.71,"text":"大家討論的第十條的第二項的這個規定因為很清楚的在行政訴訟法的第116條裡面基本上就對於行政法院他是可以依職權或依申請裁定停止執行的而依"},{"start":6346.71,"end":6369.049,"text":"申請這個當然是可能是目前實務上面最常看到的狀況就是由當事人自己主動提出申請請求法院來裁定停止執行那麼可是呢如果說加上依職權的部分如果反正它也不見得會發生可是呢在整個的形式上來講會覺得對當事人是比較有利的如果這樣的一個角度來講的話是不是"},{"start":6373.573,"end":6402.581,"text":"行政法院也可以接受在第十條第二項這邊其實也可以再加上就行政法院得依職權或申請裁定停止執行那麼因為你這下面第一款第二款跟原來的116條的第二項裡面的規定基本上是相同執去對所以這個是我的建議就是如果說在這個議題上面因為我也相信大部分都是當事人提出申請的"},{"start":6403.749,"end":6419.045,"text":"可是如果多加兩條也不妨礙原來的規定的話其實剛綜合各位委員的意見那麼我是不是先這樣建議委員會我們第二項我們先擬一個就在第二項的第二行我們第十二頁這第十條第二項的"},{"start":6420.146,"end":6434.527,"text":"第二行行政法院得依職權或依申請加上依職權或這個四個字的一個修正動議我們先去擬一下那我們來處理那接下來就是剛剛第十項的部分"},{"start":6435.228,"end":6460.501,"text":"那麼不得課徵滯納金的部分因為那麼司法院已經表達了意見了但是呢行政院這邊財政部還沒有表達意見是不是財政部就第十項你們主張課徵滯納金的起點的範圍你們的意見主張跟基礎好不好那我們現在先請我們擬一個修正動議對第二項的部分財政部次長"},{"start":6462.213,"end":6491.281,"text":"好 謝謝主席財務這邊基本上是針對這個第十項的部分有關於就是前面行政法院裁定員處分或決定停止執行之期間不得課徵制納金這個部分我們沒有意見就是他已經開始停止執行了那當然這段期間不課徵制納金這部分我們沒有意見那我們比較介意的是說那如果這個納稅一輪最後敗訴那依照目前這個第十項的但書呢"},{"start":6491.741,"end":6507.908,"text":"他只是就這個呃他敗訴期呃就是原來應該課徵的稅捐或者是呃呃應該這個停止期間應該應該課徵的稅捐來加徵所謂的利息那我們是覺得基於這個租稅公平的考量如果這個納稅義務人他"},{"start":6510.849,"end":6533.999,"text":"在這個停止執行之前他就已經有這個像我們這邊提供的這張圖表就是講到說他如果是在複查決定之後然後我們已經發單那他有一些所謂的行就席還有就是如果他有預期沒有繳納就會有滯納金然後另外還有所謂的滯納利息"},{"start":6535.279,"end":6544.646,"text":"那這段是本來這個納稅一輪他如果今天要進入訴訟的程序的時候他必須因為他延遲繳納稅捐他必須要付一稅捐監法規定必須要繳納的滯納金或者是相關的稅法應該加徵的滯納利息"},{"start":6550.31,"end":6576.24,"text":"那如果今天納稅人已經敗訴了確定是他已經敗訴應該課徵的這個相關的本稅之外呢他原來已經預期繳納的這部分的滯納金跟滯納利息我們是財政部是覺得說基於公平課稅的原則應該要回復課徵所以我們的建議條文很簡單我們就是把原來他那個但書加息的規定呢我們今天也有擬一個修正條文就是直接把它改成"},{"start":6578.964,"end":6594.215,"text":"應該有在委員的手上來跟委員說明請大家注意到有一個應該是四頁四頁的文件上面第一行抬頭的部分寫財政部對第十條修正意見那翻到了第三頁"},{"start":6595.695,"end":6617.085,"text":"第三頁第十項我們是建議修正成行政法院裁定原處分或決定停止執行者不得課徵滯納金以及利息但經行政法院駁回納稅義務人本案請求確定者應追繳原加徵滯納金及利息"},{"start":6617.725,"end":6623.048,"text":"就是他原來該繳納的部分他原來預期繳納該負擔的這個滯納金跟滯納利息的義務我們是覺得如果他敗訴的話應該還是要仍然應該要追爭回來以上報告"},{"start":6631.735,"end":6652.662,"text":"好 那麼跟委員說明 目前我們剛剛有委員提到第二項 第十條第二項那麼行政訴訟提起前的第二行 行政法院得依職權或依申請因為依職權或這四個字 剛討論後覺得可以考慮納入我們就先擬一個修正動議目前在進行"},{"start":6653.402,"end":6671.791,"text":"那目前我們在進行的是第十項那麼剛剛因為司法院已經說明了他們的圖表的部分了那現在司法院他們認為呢他們也提出了一個圖表那也發了一個資料這個資料第三頁他們認為第十項的文字當中可以加入有底線那幾個字好 那麼剛剛黃委員請求發言 請"},{"start":6675.785,"end":6683.215,"text":"剛剛第十條處理完了第二項我們繼續往第三項下面走來看一下請司法院的代表"},{"start":6685.868,"end":6712.921,"text":"第三項的部分啦 黃委員因為剛剛您不在的時候大家有在處理要講到第十項那您要再回到第三項是嗎是我本來就是順著項次啊還是要跟委員說明一下因為上次我們處理到第十條的時候大家討論的是第十項那因為今天委員有對整個第十條表示意見所以我們就回到了第十條那麼剛剛第二項的部分意見也獲採納目前正在做修正當中那現在您要採第三項請"},{"start":6714.739,"end":6734.754,"text":"就一項一項來嘛來看一下前項請醒 行政法院於必要時可以依申請或依職權命一項原處分機關供擔保後停止執行好來把那個依申請或依職權劃底線好再看一下第六項"},{"start":6736.73,"end":6760.64,"text":"停止執行的裁定可以停止原處分或決定的效力處分或決定的執行或程序續行的全部或部分等於基礎處分做成後續處分應一併停止執行行政法院並得就後續處分的停止執行依申請並向原處分機關提供擔保把依申請三個字劃底線"},{"start":6762.739,"end":6778.685,"text":"來請說明一下就供擔保不供擔保這件事情第三項是依申請或依職權第六項是只能依申請說明一下區別對待的理由好請立軍代表針對第三項跟第六項的不同異同之處請做說明"},{"start":6784.963,"end":6809.592,"text":"第六項其實它的後段是在講說因為它會擴大機遇如果基礎處分被停止執行的話會給予到後續的處分一併要停止執行那關於後續處分停止執行的部分我們這邊確實是只有規定說依申請可以來向原處分機關提供擔保"},{"start":6812.589,"end":6830.857,"text":"至於為什麼做這樣一個區別的對待是因為我們這邊規定是說後續處分要一併停止執行這是法律明定的效果但是後續處分到底機關什麼時候做成何時做成"},{"start":6831.937,"end":6859.227,"text":"那做成之後有沒有停止執行的必要那其實法院端可能就不是那麼能夠確實掌握了那所以如果這個時候因為停止執行的效力會急於後續處分那認為後續處分也有提供擔保的必要的話其實他是可以主動向法院來申請的那本來就可以向法院主動申請啊你講了半天你仔細聽一聽你自己剛講過的話"},{"start":6861.038,"end":6883.72,"text":"他本來就可以向法院來申請,我從來沒有質疑這件事情啊你們在寫法條的時候啊,要特別的注意啊在每一個相同問題脈絡的時候你們所要採行的立法原則到底是什麼停止執行命公擔保的這件事情是發生在任何強制執行的脈絡裡面都會發生的"},{"start":6885.973,"end":6904.629,"text":"不管是民事的強制執行、行政的強制執行甚至在你們這邊所針對稅審法所為特別規定的行政執行我現在的問題非常的簡單停止執行了以後為什麼要命共擔保?你要從這個制度本身回去重新思考嗎?"},{"start":6905.748,"end":6921.014,"text":"停止執行之所以命共擔保是因為本來在強制執行的程序當中一開始的時候原則上是不停止執行的接續執行到整個執行程序終結實現執行的目的為止會停止是例外"},{"start":6924.088,"end":6945.54,"text":"當停止了以後我們就會擔心停止了以後那後續整個執行的目的如果當停止的原因消滅的時候到底能不能夠實現一開始所啟動的執行程序的目的所以會有命共擔保的制度你了解完了這整個脈絡了以後下一個最關鍵的問題如果"},{"start":6949.181,"end":6977.5,"text":"在命停止執行的時候為了擔心停止執行以後後續當停止的原因消滅繼續接續執行的時候沒有辦法達成那個執行的目的的時候那為什麼一個地方是依申請或依職權另外一個地方只有依申請我到目前為止沒有聽到區別對待的理由當事人本來就可以申請我沒意見啊那我現在的意見是什麼那法院為什麼不能依職權這是我的問題"},{"start":6979.4,"end":6980.431,"text":"好 請列心再把說明"},{"start":6981.874,"end":7010.793,"text":"報告委員 可能我剛剛說的不是很清楚我的意思是說因為法律明文規定它的效果停止的效果會急於後續處分但是機關它到底後續處分什麼時候做成它做成了沒有其實行政法院是沒有辦法很具體的掌握所以這個時候要求行政法院依職全面供擔保那我們是覺得說可能就在實務上操作上有比較困難因此在這裡是設計是說"},{"start":7012.014,"end":7026.947,"text":"是依申請因為想說當事人知之甚詳所以還是由當事人來發動這樣一個程序了解 那麼主席這邊也要做一個追問其實跟第二項的情況剛剛在委員會委員討論的其實是實際上的就是因為我們行政法院在實務經驗上當然知之甚詳了解說什麼情況之下當事人會有不得回復的損害那麼因此當事人會自然會提出申請"},{"start":7040.518,"end":7056.877,"text":"那您的所謂的後續處分相對的不是當事人的是機關那麼是機關什麼做出後續處分其實行政法院不了解可是當事人知道那當事人知道後續處分對他有損害他當然會提出申請所以你認為沒有加這樣的一個規定也可以"},{"start":7057.978,"end":7074.529,"text":"滿足但是呢我們目前我認為說那就把依職權或依申請把這依職權的放進去也有可能有用到的時候說不定行政法院在某些情況之下他得其後續處分可能"},{"start":7075.169,"end":7096.095,"text":"有必要停止執行就可以依職權來停止就跟剛剛第二項行政法院也可能依職權知道有一些不可恢復的損害就依職權來提起來提出來裁定停止執行那這跟我們行政訴訟法第116條的精神是相符的那麼這樣的一個委員的意見是不是聽起來列席機關並沒有"},{"start":7098.618,"end":7123.363,"text":"反對嘛是不是是不是我們目前呢也請比照第二項我們也加入了依職全貨這四個字放在第十條第六項最後倒數第二行的內容上那我們請做文字上的修正請問委員會其他委員覺得這樣的一個修正是否妥適那不然的話我們就先進行這樣的一個修正好那我們繼續下去那請問在場委員好請繼續 黃委員"},{"start":7126.4,"end":7129.128,"text":"那我們繼續往第八項走來看一下"},{"start":7130.902,"end":7153.395,"text":"第六項的情況原處分或決定以全部或部分執行或實現者除執行標的以拍賣或變賣為第三人或有其他依法或性質上不能回復形狀的情勢行政機關可以依申請撤銷全部或一部以執行的程序或實現之行為並命執行機關或回復原狀的必要處分"},{"start":7159.059,"end":7167.511,"text":"來 我們先從這裡來處理第一個 我們先講例外的狀況所謂例外的狀況是說"},{"start":7169.522,"end":7193.65,"text":"在執行法上有一個基本的原則也就是說我們一開始進行了執行程序了以後一開始進行了執行程序了以後啟動這個強制執行啟動這個強制執行的授權基礎這個授權基礎我們一般把它稱之為執行名義在行政訴訟的脈絡裡面就是行政處分好當"},{"start":7197.441,"end":7222.691,"text":"這個執行的基礎就是這個可以啟動國家公權力進行執行程序的這個基礎處分如果出現了一些狀況的話原則上這個執行程序因為欠缺授權基礎本身產生動搖那個時候原則上是要撤銷所有已為的執行處分"},{"start":7224.281,"end":7245.89,"text":"第二個層次那但是呢當你強制執行程序走到一個階段的時候因為牽涉到對第三人利益的保護對牽涉到利益的保護的時候已經做完的事情無從再回頭已經做完的事情無從再回頭所以在個別的強制執行程序終結的時候"},{"start":7247.651,"end":7264.443,"text":"已經終結的執行程序無從撤銷這個是第二個原則我相信我在說什麼司法院的官員應該都聽得很懂沒有什麼太大的問題好那現在到進入了這個條文的核心來我們先分兩個部分我先從最簡單的開始講"},{"start":7266.684,"end":7295.689,"text":"最簡單的是你們除外的例外事由因為除外的例外事由就是在反應上面我剛剛所講的就是說當個別的執行程序終結的時候他已經處於一個無從撤銷無從往回頭路走的一個狀態了那在這樣的情況之下你這裡所講的執行標的物以拍賣或變賣於第三人在這裡你講的以拍賣指的是拍定還是所有權移轉"},{"start":7297.902,"end":7322.664,"text":"這是我的第一個問題你在這裡講的已拍賣已拍賣指的是拍定還是完成所有權移轉這個在執行程序上是兩個不同的階段拍定是拍定所有權移轉是所有權移轉那你在這邊所講的已拍賣指的是什麼意思這個我要確定的第一個問題"},{"start":7327.128,"end":7345.839,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員那因為後面有不能回復原狀那麼剛剛所說的拍賣跟拍訂都涉及到不能回復的情況那是不是就機關代表部分能夠做說明關於因為在實務上我想委員很多都有類似的接受陳情的案例那的確呢所謂的不能回復"},{"start":7347.701,"end":7361.489,"text":"這個到底是處在財產上的處分是什麼狀態因為用以拍賣或變賣這個時間點到底是切在哪裡可能聶錫光要做一個完整的說明那再跟委員會報告一下"},{"start":7361.949,"end":7380.93,"text":"目前我們在處理的是第十項那目前呢第十條那前面幾項我們已經有請做第二項還有第六項那以及剛剛有委員提出第八項都是認為在醫生請這三個字之前已加入醫職權或"},{"start":7382.692,"end":7401.651,"text":"這四個字把兩項的發動呢都能夠依行政訴訟法的116的精神域把它留存雖然在實務上可能行政法院不曾遇到過但是呢在理論上可能未來有用到的機會那立法者基於周延立法的考量我們在文字上做這樣的叫"},{"start":7402.532,"end":7426.102,"text":"完整的規範是有利於未來人民權利的保障我想這一點在場的委員都應該是肯認這個方向那是不是請剛剛的文事修正的部分呢可以趕快擬一下那我們可以做後續的修正我直接講是不是因為還沒完啦好那我這樣子有關條文內容的調整請司法院參酌討論過程中委員意見"},{"start":7431.387,"end":7450.476,"text":"進行修正提出意見的條文內容應送在場委員討論那剛剛講的就是把依職全貨這四個字呢加入那剛剛呢委員提到的以拍賣或變賣是拍定還是以轉完成這個部分時間點上請說明那委員在這段時間有沒有提他的意見來好請陳廷長"},{"start":7459.956,"end":7474.169,"text":"我們的這裡的拍賣應該是指拍訂然後取得權利移轉證書的時候就生效不好意思喔拍訂跟取得權利移轉證書是兩件事拍訂後取得權利移轉證書前中間會有個時間差"},{"start":7482.608,"end":7493.889,"text":"拍定是拍定取得權利預轉證書取得權利預轉證書所以我才特別問嘛那你指的是兩個都包括在裡面所以在解釋適用上如何解釋適用"},{"start":7496.287,"end":7517.427,"text":"這個我也要追問一下,因為實務上我們受理到陳情的確有這種情況因為法院的流程很長,在哪個時間點發生涉及到當事人的權利所以是不是請司法院這個部分好好的彙整那麼我也請侯委員會,因為這個條文剛剛經過大家的補充跟討論可能有些文字要修正形成"},{"start":7518.047,"end":7531.716,"text":"那是不是這個部分容許主席先就剛剛第八項提出的部分讓司法院去就文字的斟酌再去做一個比較完整的精確的表達那我們繼續討論 請黃委員剛剛這個是第八項的Part 1現在進入第八項的Part 2"},{"start":7539.98,"end":7564.736,"text":"回到本文原處分已經實現然後行政法院可以依照申請撤銷全部或部分已執行的行為這部分我就真的要請教一下停止執行只是停止執行喔並不代表原來距離啟動執行程序的基礎處分已經消滅了"},{"start":7566.966,"end":7595.605,"text":"如果原來據於啟動執行的基礎處分已經因為各種法律上的原因消滅的話那就不是停止的問題那是已經進行的執行程序整個都要撤銷掉了因為這個執行程序的基礎已經沒有了在法律上面被撤銷了那現在我的問題是在執行程序上在執行程序上如果原來啟動執行程序的基礎處分"},{"start":7597.571,"end":7621.89,"text":"他還存在那你只是擔心什麼你會停止執行是擔心說這樣子一直搞下去最後判決出來的時候如果原處分被撤銷事情就大了因為你全部都執行完了你原處分撤銷了要再回來已經回不來了那個時候要再回復原狀可能沒辦法回復原狀"},{"start":7623.254,"end":7650.449,"text":"那只能夠請求損害賠償請求損害賠償也沒有辦法充分的去滿足所謂損害填補的要求這個是停止執行制度之本質嘛這個我相信司法院的法官們大家都非常的清楚好那因此在停止執行的脈絡當中停止執行我不讓你繼續走下去我不讓你繼續走下去但是已經自為的"},{"start":7653.956,"end":7682.211,"text":"已經執行的程序已經執行的程序只是停止執行啊為什麼要把它撤銷掉啊為什麼要恢復原狀這個是我的問題啊你 我譬如說我完成查封我完成查封我完成查封停止執行是說不要再賣下去了但是我還是要保留那個財產凍結相對禁止移轉儲分的效力"},{"start":7683.174,"end":7700.707,"text":"因為我到最後訴訟終結的時候有可能是行政機關贏啊如果行政機關贏你前面只是停止就先撤銷已為的執行主份就起封了哇 那你如果起封了以後代表他就可以自由移轉喔他自由移轉了以後結果搞到訴訟到最後"},{"start":7702.461,"end":7728.814,"text":"是行政訴訟駁回 行政機關贏了然後行政機關再回頭過去進行查封的時候才發現哇 本來的查封處分前面已經被撤銷掉了這個整個第八項的設計到底那個理論基礎是什麼我完全沒有辦法理解這個是我針對第八項Part 2的問題"},{"start":7731.547,"end":7743.473,"text":"好 那麼這個部分可以回答嗎還是要委員有其他Part 3的部分一併回答好 那請就這個部分關於這個部分就是因為考量到就是"},{"start":7744.929,"end":7774.051,"text":"不是只是停止強制執行的程序而已是因為它原來處分的效力也已經被凍結了所以這個時候我們是參照德國財務法院法認為在這個時候其實它所停止的是一切可以用來實現這個債權也就是它原來基於這個科稅處分的一切的手段跟效果"},{"start":7774.491,"end":7802.4,"text":"通通不被允許了因此才在這樣一個立法上面明定說他可以除了是已經不能回復的情形之外這個時候是可以去撤銷他已經做成的這個執行的程序或實現的行為而且讓機關去回復原狀的必要處置這是這一條規定的一個理念"},{"start":7803.777,"end":7813.254,"text":"我可以追問一下嗎來來來我來問一下不好意思就是因為我們實務上會遇到的就剛剛因為黃委員的一個追問提到的"},{"start":7813.956,"end":7837.049,"text":"那如果因為之前在公聽會就在討論基礎處分跟後續處分有在討論這個內容那因為基礎處分跟後續處分這個是在我們稅審法當中一個概念提出來那麼也大家都很有興趣在公聽會的時候都還在討論那剛剛的提出說不太明白詢問一下那麼就那個"},{"start":7838.919,"end":7861.019,"text":"可以回復原狀的必要之處置對於不能回復的情況那麼剛剛所說的我就具體案例來請教那麼如果說因為欠稅然後他的房子就被查封那目前呢如果這個查封被撤銷但是最後還是當事人敗訴要繳很多的稅可是原來稅務行政機關所要"},{"start":7862,"end":7871.529,"text":"做來抵稅的這個標定呢已經被移轉了那會不會發生這樣的情況用很淺白的話詢問就剛剛黃委員所提出的那個情況的個案實務上會不會發生在你們這樣的條文設計之下"},{"start":7876.049,"end":7895.721,"text":"她如果因為欠稅去查封她的房屋如果是基於以這個原來欠稅的這個科稅處分做執行名義的話因此去執行她的房屋查封拍賣那因為她的這個執行名義這個處分如果因為法院已經把她裁定停止了"},{"start":7896.101,"end":7925.701,"text":"所以他的整個效力是被凍結了是沒有了所以這個時候回復原狀其實就應該回復到最初的原狀就是起封就沒有查封但是這個時候因為我們也明定說這個停止執行的效力也就是第九項的規定就是說停止執行的效力不會影響他做的保全措施如果你有另外像依照稅捐基準法24條什麼什麼你可以做一些保全措施"},{"start":7926.061,"end":7929.698,"text":"你還是可以通過保全措施的規定去做這個保全"},{"start":7931.072,"end":7957.942,"text":"謝謝 所以條文上第八項剛剛講的情況可能在第九項就做一個補充上的規定好 那麼委員對於第八項的部分我們剛剛大概有大家很一致性的比較接近就是在醫生請前面加醫職全貨這樣的一個概念那至於剛剛黃委員所垂詢的部分剛剛是業績官代表是說那在第九項的部分可以作為一個"},{"start":7959.082,"end":7985.73,"text":"對那種情況下的一個規範那請問委員那麼繼續請黃委員那個第八項Part 2的問題我老實講你剛剛的回答不是在回答我的問題啦我先做這樣的說明避免你們產生誤解認為你剛剛把條文再念一次已經回答了我的問題並沒有先留下這樣清楚的記錄好Part 3的部分再往下走"},{"start":7986.63,"end":8007.03,"text":"必要時可以命申請人向原署分機關提供擔保,那個得命申請人向原署分機關提供擔保,是依職權,依申請,還是不用寫?好,那麼機關代表請說明,第八項,倒數第四行,必要時"},{"start":8009.93,"end":8035.449,"text":"因為第八項前段我們本來是依申請因為本來就是前段的就是依申請那後段的話必要時也基本法院審酌必要時就可以命供擔保抱歉因為你們前面有寫申請人你這申請人是對應你前面的是依申請"},{"start":8036.161,"end":8059.464,"text":"那如果前面是依職權或依申請,後面的這個申請人就不報案全部啊?對啊,法院命,所以看起來應該是依職權所以這個藍方委員請我再回去想清楚如果這個時候必要時得怎麼樣就指的是依職權的話"},{"start":8060.973,"end":8084.045,"text":"那如果按照你這種立法體力前面只有一職權的統統把一職權三個字都刪掉因為你不要說同一部法典同一部法典有不同的寫法這我可以理解你不同的法典有不同的寫法我可以理解你現在不僅僅是在同一部法典有不同的寫法連同一個條文都有不同的寫法"},{"start":8088.696,"end":8111.551,"text":"你以後是要大家再猜喔要大家去想喔我必須要講在程序法上有沒有申請權很重要當我有申請權的時候你准不准法院就要針對我這個申請權為回應通常回應的方式是裁定"},{"start":8112.691,"end":8137.172,"text":"那個裁定可不可以事後就進 那是下一個層次的問題如果純粹是依職權的話那只是促請法院為職權之發動法官可以說 我聽到了 然後呢 沒有然後了為什麼沒有然後 因為你沒有申請權嘛要做不要做完全是我法官來決定的嘛我聽到了 我聽到了我也沒必要回應"},{"start":8138.732,"end":8166.92,"text":"因為你根本沒申請權嘛啊你們坐在同一項前面有一申請拜託第八項行政法院得一申請撤銷全部或部分的已執行程序主份誰會做這個申請就是被執行的那個人民嘛受到這個執行程序不利益的人民會申請嘛那誰會想要申請命單保是行政機關嘛"},{"start":8169.001,"end":8194.838,"text":"財務部的那個財政部的可能會講說欸欸欸 燒彈欸你現在把它撤銷了撤銷什麼意思啊前面做的執行處分啊全部丟到垃圾桶去啊當沒做過一模一樣喔啊當沒做過一模一樣啊你說雖然今天機關單開始緊張啦啊前面的全部撤銷啊也起風了欸 稍等一下 稍微等一下啊如果最後是我贏的話"},{"start":8196.878,"end":8204.244,"text":"你前面把那個執行處分全部撤銷掉你不是在協助他脫產嗎所以誰會想要醫生請命他擔保是稅政機關機關會想要醫生請命他供擔保嗎"},{"start":8210.478,"end":8234.78,"text":"所以你前面的那個依申請跟你後面說必要時可以命他向原處分機關供擔保這裡命是依職權還是他們也有權利依申請命他供擔保那個財政部的代表你們到底有沒有深刻理解這個條文對你們的影響你坐在那邊一句話都不講"},{"start":8237.327,"end":8253.049,"text":"我都幫你捏把冷汗你真的都OK喔來那個三中代表請說明如果我們行政法院得依職權或依申請後面的流程就有兩軌那你們說明一下剛剛黃委員的詢問"},{"start":8255.412,"end":8283.055,"text":"報告委員因為基本上我們如果納稅人形成欠稅的時候我們已經會先依稅監監法第24條進行相關的保全措施那如果是進行保全措施就是這個假設他是不動產的話當然我們就會禁止處分就是禁止處分那進行處分會不會走到這個所謂拍賣或變賣這種程序其實如果我們保全程序做得完備的話"},{"start":8284.036,"end":8311.651,"text":"照理說應該不會走到拍賣或變賣到第三人這個程序因為這個財產已經禁止儲分了所以如果他們司法院要這樣訂因為我們基本上如果稅務機關前面的擔保程序都做得很完備的話照理說這個程序不是會影響說萬一他哪一天敗訴以後我們後續的這些財產是不是欠稅我們辦法追回"},{"start":8313.866,"end":8342.205,"text":"好 黃委員請來看一下財政部的代表把法文看清楚喔把法條看清楚喔第八項在處理第六項的情況第六項的情況指的是什麼情況你原處分或決定的效力都被停止了喔好 你原處分的決定效力被延遲剛剛你所講的在你們行政機關裡面所做的那個保全處分"},{"start":8343.274,"end":8369.148,"text":"你們認為那個時候效力還會繼續存在因為在第九項他有特別提出說第六項停止執行是效力不影響我們的保全程序不是啊那如果是這樣子的話那我就要請教一下司法院那如果是這樣子的話他們前面的通通都有效你在後面的執行程序把它撤掉到底有什麼意義啊完全沒有意義啊"},{"start":8370.592,"end":8393.986,"text":"因為對於納稅義務人來講他唯一care的一件事情是什麼對我財產權所附加的限制是不是可以獲得解放嘛那你們在行政訴訟在所謂的稅務行政訴訟把它解放了那原來的沒有把它解放所以搞了半天對當事人的角度來講在稅務行政訴訟的時候"},{"start":8395.834,"end":8423.033,"text":"沒有去凍結我處分權能的問題但是在本來的稅務機關的原處分效率繼續存在那你在這邊規範的實意是什麼我現在越聽越不懂好那麼在第九項對稅務機關的一個強勢保障之下前面所提的第六七八這三個項目實務上到底對於"},{"start":8426.086,"end":8441.398,"text":"納稅醫護人或者當事人有什麼好處的確我也很好奇啦因為第九項已經給稅務機關那麼大的一個保障了嘛那你前面對於納稅醫護人678這三項你給他什麼樣的救濟的程序利益那第九項就發現前面678我們在處理的是什麼"},{"start":8478.081,"end":8493.991,"text":"要不要那個主席我可不可以提議休息10分鐘讓他們研究一下那不然全部的人坐在他們看他們在那邊交流頭接的大家都很害怕我們莊委員有不同意見嗎我們休息5分鐘休息可以啦但是我先談一下我早上聽到現在"},{"start":8497.173,"end":8514.201,"text":"其實還是沒有聚焦你整個其實我們我第一次在省的時候我就提出來了我們整部法令我們去接收了德國很多精華那這個精華裡面你去把它看我們"},{"start":8515.402,"end":8538.027,"text":"一般在看處罰的部分的話我們行政處罰那個部分我們其實是用行政程序那現在呢大家在看在談的有時候談到的是本稅的部分那有的是談到說這處罰的部分那你如果是要去記受它的經法的話那你現在用刑事訴訟的一個觀點來看德國確實是採這一部分"},{"start":8542.478,"end":8558.23,"text":"剛剛我們提到的就是說如果你是用刑事訴訟的觀點去看的話那確實是無罪推定那確實是當事人也沒有協力的義務那我們這整個行政法裡面我們確實是台灣我們自己去發展"},{"start":8560.431,"end":8578.659,"text":"那現在我們會覺得說國外的這個法制我們要去學習把它的精華弄進來可是我們又參差的太多太多不同的一個法制在裡面所以會扯不清啦所以我就看因為司法院剛剛廷長在回答的時候我很清楚你們都非常實務的一個經驗可是用抽象去講的話如果在立法院大家用"},{"start":8582.759,"end":8599.734,"text":"用整個不同的一個體力的一個概念去談回顧到整個幾乎是大體討論有時候你用形式說法的觀點去看甚至有時候你到細部的一個條文裡面你會認為說這個法院應該是用"},{"start":8604.358,"end":8621.378,"text":"職權去命令對整個訴訟裡面要讓他去發現一個真實可是你又會去卡到整個你的核心問題是什麼所以這個還是講不清啦我是認為這一部法令的時候我們剛開始在大體討論的時候就沒講清楚"},{"start":8621.918,"end":8639.833,"text":"那現在來進入到這整個個別的條文裡面我認為都一直會去卡關否則你看你這個第八項我來看的話你說必要時得命申請人向原儲分機關提供擔保那大家想說到底是當事人申請還是法案區一個職權那我來看的話"},{"start":8641.614,"end":8657.499,"text":"你確實到底有沒有急迫 或者說難以去做一個回覆那你法官在那邊審的時候 當事人沒講你光法官你自己也沒辦法去非常的一個清楚先休一下啦 先休一下 大家這樣不用在那裡雞湯鴨講好 謝謝 那我們休息五分鐘不是 剛剛有說要休息啊"},{"start":8668.415,"end":8669.158,"text":"沒關係啦 這個我主席說15分鐘啦 好不好"},{"start":9305.25,"end":9327.336,"text":"好 那麼繼續開會 請就座那因為剛剛我們在第十條各項 有的各項的增訂文字有共識有的部分可能還需要列席機關做充分說明那因為在場委員也一直有在關切包括到第十項的部分那是我們委員會"},{"start":9328.416,"end":9353.174,"text":"那麼在行政列席機關就剛剛第九項及之前的文字修正和相關的內容說明的部分呢我們繼續的趕快把文字完整化那我們也讓第十項的部分呢因為剛剛已經分別聽過了司法院及財政部的意見了那因為在場委員對於滯納金的利息的部分也要表達意見那我們先也就是同時就第十項的部分來進行討論好 那請陳委員"},{"start":9357.466,"end":9378.367,"text":"好 謝謝主席對於那個滯納金需這個加收利息的部分我想說因為剛剛聽了我們財政部的這個意見那依我們這個4-746號慈嚴利息可以這個再加收利息嗎這個部分我想說"},{"start":9379.591,"end":9404.361,"text":"之前有民眾的這個釋憲的一個案子他針對這個部分那大法官會議指出在那個稅捐激增法第20條裡面有規定那依這個稅法的內容預期繳納這個稅捐應加增滯納金則每餘兩日可是我剛剛聽我們那個我們庭長講的是我們"},{"start":9408.503,"end":9434.29,"text":"那個陳警長講的是三日嘛齁那我看到的是兩日齁按滯納這個數額加增一趴的滯納金那這個最主要是要督促齁我們國人對於法定的這個期限內齁應該要履行繳稅的一個義務的一個手段齁那為看起來就是為違反這個憲法的一個保障財產權和比例原則的一個規定"},{"start":9438.803,"end":9466.965,"text":"就這個納稅款的部分我們要加徵利息跟憲法保障這個財產權的部分也沒有衝突那大法官會議對於這個滯納金再加徵利息的部分也認為說這個滯納金是政府為了要督促而設立的並不是再加徵利息的這個方式來讓民眾好像多一個這個"},{"start":9470.019,"end":9491.002,"text":"繳稅的一個方式那這個滯納金遲延的這個利息的性質如再加增利息看起來就是重複計算不符合這個憲法比例的原則那個大法官也很明確的講說這是違憲那應立即失效"},{"start":9492.045,"end":9502.8,"text":"那換言之有這個遲延的利息性質的這種滯納金不可以再加收利息不然重複計算的話欠缺合理性也不符這個比例原則"},{"start":9504.383,"end":9526.827,"text":"在這個滯納金的利息加徵的部分就等同是重複的處罰我們的國稅局除了加收滯納金當作懲罰以外還要再加收稅額以外的利息並且再加收滯納金的利息"},{"start":9528.134,"end":9552.628,"text":"那這樣子等同一釋三法一釋三法所以大法官也認為說這個滯納金的利息分兩種嘛一種是稅額的利息一種是這個納稅金滯納金的一個利息就兩種嘛那設立這個我們還是再重複一次他認為就是要督促人民按時的來繳納這個稅額本來就不應該"},{"start":9558.148,"end":9575.597,"text":"這個計算利息況且我們滯納金的本身就具有這個遲延利息的性質如果再針對滯納金再收取利息等於重複計算一次兩法三法認為多收的這個滯納金的利息違背憲法所以"},{"start":9578.382,"end":9601.831,"text":"我們是認為說因為剛剛我聽我們司法院還有財政部這邊的講法好像是有不同的意見我們應該是司法院這邊好像是比較傾向就是可能自殺金再加收利息的部分比較沒有表示意見可是剛剛次長的部分好像是就針對這個部分有講所以我想說這個部分是不是可以把意見做一個整合"},{"start":9604.276,"end":9626.605,"text":"民眾的這個聲音我覺得我們也應該要去重視你如果說假設像民眾認為說這個一事三法的話這也會對民眾的這個繳稅的意願會產生不利的影響那是不是等一下請我們司法院跟財政部這邊再做一個完整的一個說明好 那麼列席機關代表是不是司法院先"},{"start":9630.093,"end":9643.686,"text":"其實我們第十項的規定是規定不科偵制納金我們是認為說因為如果你回復原狀之後是你之前繳的稅款啊什麼全部通通要還給納稅義務人"},{"start":9647.711,"end":9675.78,"text":"而且這一段時間因為裁定停止我們也不會再去科徵20條因為你預期繳納稅款而要繳的滯納金我們認為說滯納金這一塊是不科徵的取而代之的我們是用利息來計算也就是其實它的利息標準是跟目前稅捐基增法38條規定的利息是一致的那所以"},{"start":9676.32,"end":9695.996,"text":"沒有委員剛才所謂的科徵的滯納金又要科徵滯納金的利息的這個問題我們認為前面滯納金全部都不用了取而代之的你只要敗訴確定之後你只要去跟他追這一段期間的利息就可以好 那個財政部代表請"},{"start":9697.535,"end":9716.53,"text":"謝謝主席 我補充說明一下就是我們這邊寫的這個滯納金是它按照稅捐基金法第20條就是原來應該繳納的期間所預繳的這個部分我們現在修法是改成三天 三天加1%所以總共是10% 最多加到10%"},{"start":9717.751,"end":9745.578,"text":"然後呢 滯納金不會再有利息不會再有按滯納金去計算利息這件事情那我們這邊講的滯納利息是說我們其他的稅法像我們所的稅法裡面也會有講說你預了原來的繳納期限以後我們會按照原來的繳納期預期的天數再去計算一個利息那個是另外就本稅部分計算的滯納利息跟滯納金沒有關係這邊我要說明一下就是說我們不會再針對滯納金去加計利息"},{"start":9747.498,"end":9751.882,"text":"沒有這件事情也就是不會走那個司法院已經解釋我們是違憲那件事情本來就違憲那個我們不會再加徵所以現在所加的只是說他因為複查階段如果他複查階段決定以後我們國稅局會發一個稅單給他"},{"start":9764.494,"end":9767.136,"text":"會依照稅運檢法第38條的規定加一個行就席然後另外會發一個稅單給他那稅單會有一個現繳日期那如果你預了這個現繳日期的話就進入滯納金的計算期限就每預三日加1%最多加到10%"},{"start":9781.969,"end":9789.494,"text":"至於所謂的滯納利息是依照其他的稅法各個稅法各個稅法像我們所謂的稅法有另外講說你超過了你原來應該繳納的期限之後呢我們會按日另外計算所謂的滯納利息它跟滯納金是沒有關係的那我們這邊是建議說因為既然納稅人已有人敗訴了當然司法院這個條文是講說他如果敗訴的話我們是就他原來從他"},{"start":9809.426,"end":9828.399,"text":"停止執行期間該繳納的利息部分一併加徵但是主要是因為考量滯納金跟利息的計算畢竟有一些差異因為滯納金基本上我們是按照本稅的10%來計算但是司法院這個條文它是按照一年期定期儲金"},{"start":9829.54,"end":9837.573,"text":"的固定利率來計算那我們初步計算的結果是兩者之間可能會有將近7%到8%的差異那如果是一個納稅義務人他欠繳的稅款金額比較巨大"},{"start":9844.127,"end":9855.771,"text":"然後呢他可能比較有這個故意去延遲繳納這種意圖的話有可能因為這樣這個會鼓勵納稅人將來呢他都可以進入只要進入這個執行行政輸送程序的話他們都可以不要去繳這個相關的滯納金或滯納利息延遲繳納因為他未來即使敗訴他也只有加計利息的負擔而已所以我們是覺得基於公平課稅的考量似乎如果他如果敗訴的話"},{"start":9872.778,"end":9884.24,"text":"應該他原來應該要加徵的滯納基因還有滯納利息或者是刑救利息都應該在一併來依法規定來繳回在依稅基金法的規定來追徵回來這是我們建議的條文"},{"start":9885.168,"end":9907.642,"text":"好 謝謝 在吳昭偉說明之前請提醒委員會目前剛剛次長講的是他們提供的財政部意見的建議修正的第三頁那裡面是寫應追繳原加徵滯納金及利息那這裡的利息是指本稅的利息那這裡的滯納金就是原儲分的滯納金來 請吳昭偉"},{"start":9910.677,"end":9922.663,"text":"好謝謝那我先請問一下因為我有一個地方不是很懂就是因為這個部分應該是屬於程序法嘛對不對就我們這次審的這個草案那因為我看的"},{"start":9924.178,"end":9951.676,"text":"因為其實我們第10條第10項它有一個就是說就是不得克徵那如果用一個程序法去免除掉稅增基增法的義務這當然可不可以這樣我覺得這是我們一個思考不過這幾年確實我們立出來的法律很多都把程序法跟實際法全部混在同一個法律裡面那這樣子其實是跟早年的立法技術是不太一樣"},{"start":9952.896,"end":9979.548,"text":"這我先說第一個那第二個當然後來今天那個財政部的修正我是蠻認同的因為原本你們的草案其實他會造成的就是將來一定會有這個納稅的義務人他會藉由這提起一些訴訟然後來停止相關的執行那你們今天提出來的這個我剛剛把整個仔細看我覺得你們提這是有道理"},{"start":9980.248,"end":9997.266,"text":"就用之後追針追腳的模式去把它處理完所以這一塊如果你們後續修正的文字我是認同的只是我覺得用我們這次的稅務行政事件審理法"},{"start":9998.247,"end":10011.704,"text":"來去排除掉稅增基增法的義務就是第10條第10項這個我總覺得有一點怪怪是不是可以請行政機關說明一下好 請陳廷長說明"},{"start":10013.226,"end":10039.185,"text":"是 報告委員其實這一條主要是規定就是停止執行的規定那行政訴訟法是規定在126條的規定那所以因為針對稅務的特性所以在這裡我們又做了一些特別的一些的處理那跟委員報告就是我們為什麼不科徵滯納金其實就是基於我們認為"},{"start":10040.206,"end":10056.995,"text":"法院裁定停止執行委員可以看第二條第一款跟第二款的要件其實第二項第一款跟第二款的要件其實是非常的嚴格的必須是原處分合法性顯有疑義"},{"start":10058.315,"end":10076.38,"text":"就是說不用經過很仔細的調查看起來原處分的合法性就顯有疑義那這時候要讓原處分的效力繼續存在嗎要讓相關的執行行為繼續存在嗎那當事人如果提起行政徵送還要科徵他的滯納金嗎"},{"start":10077.78,"end":10093.258,"text":"那我們是認為說其實在效率這麼嚴的情形之下你若違法性先有疑義那我們就法院真的裁定認為你符合要件裁定准許你停止執行而且我們停止執行不僅僅是停止他的"},{"start":10094.099,"end":10114.66,"text":"強制執行程序而已我們還停止了他的效力原來處分的效力所以我們是才效力說就是因為你原來的這一個處分的效力就都已經被凍結被停止了那我們進而就認為說如果按照這樣子一個理論推論下來那當事人他就"},{"start":10115.2,"end":10143.155,"text":"沒有所謂預期繳納稅款啊那他為什麼要繳滯納金呢那因此如果法院真的裁定准許之後而且他也申請法院去測了他的一些的執行執行程序會以實現的行政行為並且法院命他回復原狀因此回復原狀以後之後如基於這些這個效力說基於效力說其實他"},{"start":10143.795,"end":10172.24,"text":"就根本沒有這些問題如果他真的最後敗訴了敗訴了他要繳納這些稅款那只是我們認為說這個回頭所以設計了一個特別的一個利息那只是因為你遲延繳納嘛你到敗訴確定之後你真的敗訴你還是要繳納這筆稅款所以我們在這邊才會去加徵一個利息那所以其實我們認為我們司法院的版本是對納稅義務人比較有保障的"},{"start":10172.6,"end":10192.877,"text":"而且重點是這裡的遲延利息就是指因為你預期繳納的遲延利息的滯納金而且這個滯納金目前按照稅捐基增法的規定它是非常的高的30天就要課你滯繳金額的10%那所以我們才有這樣的一個設計 謝謝"},{"start":10194.939,"end":10202.368,"text":"我意思是這樣就是說我是認同你們所以我剛有說我認同你們後來的文字上面的修正"},{"start":10203.215,"end":10230.511,"text":"那我覺得那個也是比較合理嘛這部分我OK但我剛剛的問題是在於說我雖然可以認同你們這樣的修正因為這樣可以避免到有一些人會去利用訴訟然後來不用繳這些錢所以你們的這個文字上的修正我支持但是我是說回過頭去思考一個點就是因為你剛剛有提到《稅務基金法》二十條就是每三日加徵一趴的這個規定"},{"start":10232.392,"end":10258.97,"text":"但是這個部分我們是不是可以用一個審理法的草案審理法 這個程序法的東西我們回過頭去免去這個稅政基金法20條的這個義務可以這樣做嗎我只是說這是法律立法上面一個技術面的問題因為這樣我們立出來變因為這幾年我們很多法律其實搞到最後程序法司法全部混在一起"},{"start":10259.75,"end":10274.122,"text":"跟我們早年所理解的程序法就程序法實例法就實例法不一樣用一個程序法去去推翻掉碎片計算法20條的這個義務這個邏輯我是不太能理解請說明"},{"start":10276.949,"end":10297.412,"text":"報告委員其實這個還是我們認為是基於停止執行這個程序或者是這個制度它的法律效果做完整的配套的規定所以我們才會議題規定所以它還是屬於停止執行的一個效果的規定"},{"start":10300.842,"end":10321.997,"text":"我想剛剛經過吳釗偉的提出跟葉啟光的說明我們都理解今天從最早一開始到現在今天討論的都有提到關於納保法的精神哪些部分會在我們稅審法當中呢大家會認為有重疊的部分那聽起來稅審法不純粹是程序的規定因為有些部分是在納保法當中"},{"start":10322.717,"end":10335.421,"text":"他那個精神 但是呢 我們的睡神法要在落實大概有這樣的一個體力這樣的爭議那請問目前因為關於前面的第我看第八項第八項的部分那麼因為剛剛我收到了"},{"start":10342.853,"end":10357.726,"text":"司法院他們的對於一開始委員所提到的依職權或依申請字樣有一個修正的動議但是我細讀之下主席這邊細讀之下發現在第八項的部分呢並沒有做任何的調整"},{"start":10358.547,"end":10383.412,"text":"是否這個部分因為剛剛在休息之前黃委員有垂詢過那麼這裡面呢提到第八項當中也是有一個一申請撤銷那後面呢又有一個必要時易得命申請人那這樣的一個軌跡如果說有要調整那勢必前後都可能會有需要調整那目前你們送到主議台的這邊是都沒有調整這個部分要不要說明一下"},{"start":10387.577,"end":10404.928,"text":"我們目前就是停止執行這裡是指他的本案執行也就是基於那一個原處分就是科稅處分所做的執行那如果今天這個原處分已經被法院裁定停止執行之後"},{"start":10405.328,"end":10430.106,"text":"因為效率說的影響它整個效率是被凍結的所以我們這個時候因為它前面可能已經進行了本案的一些強制執行的程序甚至已經實現了它的債權所以我們這裡就明文規定就是說你可以來跟法院申請因為你的裁定已經你申請法院停止執行已經被准了"},{"start":10430.546,"end":10447.081,"text":"那你要不要進一步申請法院去撤銷已經執行的那些執行程序命機關把已經收的相關的稅款返還我們是認為尊重當事人的程序選擇權那所以"},{"start":10448.022,"end":10473.631,"text":"當事人你要不要進一步做這樣申請我們才會規定說是依申請當事人可以依申請那當事人依申請要進一步去撤銷執行行為或者是要並且命機關為回復原狀的處置的時候這個時候法院必要的時候如果法院認為說要准"},{"start":10475.111,"end":10494.311,"text":"那他認為有必要因為返還之後會不會造成本案的債權日後無法確實實現所以他這個時候是法院認為必要的時候是可以命申請人向原處分機關提供擔保的"},{"start":10494.972,"end":10513.521,"text":"那這個時候因為是申請人申請嘛那法院認為必要時候可以這樣做但是根據我們本法的第五項的規定就是法院在做准許停止執行的時候其實都會先遵循當事人的意見所以"},{"start":10514.201,"end":10539.127,"text":"基增機關這個時候我們也會徵詢基增機關的意見如果基增機關知道當事人有申請進一步來申請要去撤銷執行程序而且要做回復原狀的話那機關其實也可以利用徵詢的程序來促使法院提醒法院說看法院是不是要命公擔保那以上的報告 謝謝好 那麼五不曉得 請換委員"},{"start":10541.807,"end":10553.378,"text":"第一個在程序法上面有沒有申請權跟你們表達意見的機會是兩個完全不同層次的問題你怎麼會把它混在一起講呢我這樣講聽得懂嗎"},{"start":10559.386,"end":10587.937,"text":"其實主席也是要請教一下因為剛剛就剛剛司法院的意見你們認為本來在其他各項當中依申請前面我們也可以遵御行政法院依職權去進行必要的處分但是在第八項剛剛你們的意見認為在第八項它的所涉及的含釋的範圍內純粹只有納稅義務人覺得有必要的時候才會提出申請也才有行政法院去命其做一些處置那不至於會有"},{"start":10588.777,"end":10604.167,"text":"法院依職權要去進行的這些部分的必要是這樣的意思嗎好那不過呢顯然那個委員還有其他意見是不是那剛主席那個歸納就不對嘛你們坐在那邊呆若木雞這樣好不好那麼"},{"start":10611.414,"end":10623.785,"text":"如果是這樣的話我看這樣子因為第10條我們花了很多時間那其實我現在手上這個修正動議如果說剛剛就有意見的第8項並沒有做必要的調整那這個修正動議也無從對第10條進行調整後就能夠做處置那同時另外第11項的部分"},{"start":10631.952,"end":10655.104,"text":"那委員會還是有不同委員有不同意見因為有的委員認為第10項的部分呢是認為應該不得課徵滯納金但是有委員也認同財政部的意見認為呢可以做第10項的部分做部分的修正那這樣好不好那我們第10條我們就把這些意見都先暫時保留因為我們今天本來是要處理上次完全會處理的11到16"},{"start":10657.685,"end":10675.874,"text":"這是屬於協力義務也是重中之重還有第25條稅審官那稅審官設置也跟我們協力義務有關於到達稅義務人的權利的保障那是不是委員會同意我們第10條還是暫保留我們因為有委員吳昭偉他希望能趕快進入到11條到後面的討論他請是我想要釐清的就是說剛講第10條的第二項後來有修有要但是因為"},{"start":10685.595,"end":10706.921,"text":"因為你剛剛只有講到第十條的第八項那第二項的部分呢我幫他說明一下好了因為目前有送上來要做文字修改的的確有包括問員所說的第二項第二行行政法院得依職權或依申請把依職權放進去了然後再來第三項也是一樣得依"},{"start":10708.441,"end":10736.297,"text":"職權或依申請也放進去了然後請看第六項第六項它也是說停止執行制裁定後面的倒數第二行也是可以依職權或依申請那麼目前我們剛剛的討論中已經有把它納入了只是說這些的修正意見因為後面有第八項的部分以及第十項的部分並沒有共識所以這個修正動議變成說我們只處理了有共識的部分沒有處理有"},{"start":10737.017,"end":10763.174,"text":"無共識的部分所以本條沒有辦法完全一次處理所以還是先暫保留那我們還是尋求後續如果有提出文字上完整的說明我們再拉回來請求委員會能夠對第10條的修正部分都予以肯認那因為剛剛有吳釗緯提到那我們就先進行11條到16條那個那個主席怎麼樣因為我另外還有一個會議齁那我我請那個黃國昌委員幫我提出就好所以你不用急著我了解"},{"start":10766.095,"end":10789.387,"text":"黃委員會幫我提出好那我們第10條暫保留那從第11條到第16條來請表示意見第一個我是建議第10條就直接喊宣告保留不要暫保留啦我們還是會處理謝謝委員沒有我再說一次我現在我今天早上發言我想非常清楚了啦"},{"start":10790.782,"end":10802.672,"text":"我對於這個法案到目前為止搞了二三十條它到底能夠發揮什麼規範的功能我是打一個超級大問號在這個疑慮消除以前針對這個法律立法的必要性"},{"start":10817.014,"end":10833.673,"text":"我基本上還是抱持一個高度保留的態度我先說清楚啦那至於說前面可能有一些條文你們在用詞上前後不一致的部分我看了也是覺得非常的困擾"},{"start":10835.014,"end":10859.006,"text":"我為什麼說用詞前後不一致的部分看了非常的困擾我走到後面的條文有時間的時候再來弄我走到後面的條文有時間的時候再來弄那第十條的部分那也請司法院在你所謂的修正文字的時候一併去考慮清楚如果你們在第十條的部分"},{"start":10860.046,"end":10887.973,"text":"保留了剛剛財政部所講的那樣的一個條文的話那他們前面的保留處分的措施效率都還繼續存在那我們前面規定這一拖拉鼓到底是在幹嘛我也完全看不懂啊在行政訴訟上面法官當事人全部都在瞎忙瞎忙了半天"},{"start":10889.711,"end":10904.036,"text":"對行政機關來講我只要後面我本來的保全措施的效率不受任何影響我們前面在訴訟程序上面搞這一堆不是都在瞎忙嗎"},{"start":10907.421,"end":10931.612,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員的寶貴意見我們都一向尊重委員會各委員對於全案的意見但因為之前我們已經包括名稱已經通過了21個條文跟名稱了那麼本草案有33條文那我們盡量的能夠在委員會善盡委員的職責將整個法案充分的由委員會表達意見後能夠達成共識的我們就通過"},{"start":10932.392,"end":10946.425,"text":"那麼三位能達成共識的我們也盡量的將爭點釐清那接下來我們就進行十一條那因為十一條到十六條都是協議義務的相關規定那麼就請委員會可以從十一條開始進行表示意見"},{"start":10948.895,"end":10962.288,"text":"縣市機關有需要先做11條到16條已經就委員因為委員今天在上午的部分呢又對協力義務提出了一個概括性的質疑那不是先請列席機關就這個部分加以說明"},{"start":10967.691,"end":10989.176,"text":"我想關於協力義務的規範我就是除了援引之前報告的之外想補充一點的就是說其實我們整部不管是行政訴訟法或者是我們本法案機關負有舉證責任當事人有協力義務法院"},{"start":10996.656,"end":11010.946,"text":"有職權調查的責任我想這是不會這是很明確的一件事也不會變動那剛才只是討論到協力義務只是因為我們特別就協力義務這一塊來講"},{"start":11013.368,"end":11032.088,"text":"好像會讓人誤認為說我們只側重在當事人你要負協力義務那我想其實不是這麼一回事的那因為其實納保法就已經明確的規定就是機關負的舉證責任並不會因為當事人負有協力義務而免除"},{"start":11033.089,"end":11057.816,"text":"那所以我想這是大家各盡本分各司其職的問題那至於協力義務的違反是不是一定會導致說他判決就會被敗訴我想這是不一定的因為協力義務的違反我們本條雖然有規定的一些的法律的效果例如你不來我可以處罰還"},{"start":11059.356,"end":11080.421,"text":"你不提出帳部憑證,那我可以以裁定命強制處分但是這個只是手段之一,我們也不排除可以我們也會回歸適用到行政訴訟法的相關規定例如我們可以用證明度降低"},{"start":11081.782,"end":11092.613,"text":"你不提出帳不憑證我們最後是用推計科稅的方式來核定稅額所以不一定就會導致當事人敗訴的這樣一個結論以上補充 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":11099.305,"end":11124.038,"text":"請問委員會對第11條的內容或者到16條有什麼意見來 請黃委員第一個 第11條的部分就有關於11條裡面所規定的各項就11條裡面所規定的各項因依職權調查事實關係不受當事人事實主張及證據聲明的拘束那這個不是本來就是行政訴訟的基本原則嗎"},{"start":11126.545,"end":11153.132,"text":"再寫一次的意義是什麼?我看不懂法官要適當的行使採名權或者是反過來講法官的採名權不僅僅是權利,更是法官的義務他要履行他的採名義務不是本來就這樣嗎?再寫一次是在幹嘛?是因為發現這個法典這部所謂的特別法"},{"start":11155.411,"end":11179.389,"text":"條文太少了行政訴訟的部分在超級條上來衝衝場面是這樣嗎我看不懂啊第二個唯一會讓我注意的就是當事人協力為之 前項調查當事人因協力為之所以你現在要把他連結的是證明度降低嗎"},{"start":11180.779,"end":11205.974,"text":"那你如果要把它連結的是證明度降低的話在有關於稅務處分之外的裁罰處分的這件事情我就不贊成如果會產生你所講的剛剛那個法律效果的話那我第十一條第一項第三項第四項第五項全部都是罪文全部都是罪文更沒必要寫啊"},{"start":11210.014,"end":11214.797,"text":"你寫這條要幹嘛?那行政訴訟法不就規範在那邊嗎?那全部再抄一次是在幹嘛?怎麼會有這麼拙劣的立法?規範的必要性在哪裡?唯一讓我看了覺得這個條文比較危險的就是有關於裁判處分的部分"},{"start":11235.816,"end":11252.618,"text":"如果你要連結的是說當事人的協力義務包括裁判處分然後會進一步連結他的法律效果是證明度降低那證明度降低當事人敗訴的風險就大幅的提高啊所以我反對第11條的條文"},{"start":11255.131,"end":11281.199,"text":"好謝謝那因為剛剛委員有提到包括裁罰的規定是在第13條那因為剛剛主席這邊已經說了接下來有關於當事人協力義務的部分含釋的範圍從11條到16條如果列席機關代表認為有必要你們可以就相關條文關係到的其他條文一併做說明那剛剛有委員垂詢到裁罰的必要的情況之下那規定在13條那是否有委員所提的情況請說明"},{"start":11294.674,"end":11320.063,"text":"主席的問題是可不可以再讓我們更明確一下因為剛剛有委員提到11條的內容就是重述行政訴訟法的內容那麼但是你們又列了到16條相關部分那因為呢關於當事人的協力義務之外因為當事人要承擔敗訴之風險嘛那這種情況之下對於他不配合或不盡協力義務的時候的裁罰的規定你們是規定在13條嘛"},{"start":11321.644,"end":11329.165,"text":"是不是那這個剛剛有委員在提到說你們這整個六個條文的規定的必要性嘛所以就請你們做說明來黃委員要先請這個剛剛這個黃委員其實已經講了第十一條的規定基本上是跟行政訴訟法第125條的規定一模一樣那有沒有在這裡多多寫一次的必要"},{"start":11349.727,"end":11375.705,"text":"那麼看起來如果說在當時的立法設計上面要特別再把第11條寫出來可能是跟第12條跟第13條的相關的規定有關因為在第12條裡面其實有對於就是持有資料的這個當事人如果說無正當理由不從提出之命的話是可以做強制處分而且也可以進行罰款那第13條的話也是針對"},{"start":11381.226,"end":11395.715,"text":"這個沒有正當理由不到場的話等等的這些有這樣的行為是可以處以罰緩的那麼所以就是說這裡可能還是有要再講一次就是如果說這一條不定的話那麼會影響到第12條跟第13條的規定嗎好 那麼列基官代表請說明"},{"start":11402.557,"end":11425.122,"text":"其實因為我們當時也是有討論過說11條要不要訂只是為了基於體力的完整性因為在講到說協力義務這一塊那所以認為說目前行政訴訟法125條第二項就有一般性協力義務的這樣一個規定所以我們才為了體力的完整性把它訂上來"},{"start":11426.522,"end":11450.732,"text":"那如果剛才委員講說11條不定那因為11條目前的條文是跟行政訴訟法125條是一樣的那我們相關的規範就可以適用回行政訴訟法的規定那所以後面如果沒有11條的把行政訴訟法125條移進來那你們後面的12條13條14條到16條都還可以附著嗎"},{"start":11459.914,"end":11472.672,"text":"那我們11條如果說不予增列的話那後面的條文可以繼續推進囉因為是跟125請說明"},{"start":11476.038,"end":11497.968,"text":"報告主席就是因為我們11條除了規範協力義務之外其實還有明定就是法院職權調查的義務那還有像第四項就是第三項就是審判長的產名義務跟第四項是訴訟照料的義務所以其實在這裡我們認為說還是如果規定"},{"start":11502.15,"end":11517.58,"text":"進來的話其實是比較完整,因為它不僅僅是規範協力義務而已然後更賦予法院有明確的揭露說法院有職權調查跟訴訟照料等相關義務請問就是你這個11條跟125條的文字是一模一樣吧應該是一模一樣對不對"},{"start":11529.326,"end":11556.574,"text":"好那這個確實就可以討論就是有沒有必要這個當然就是剛剛因為黃委員他有對這條到底要不要定有些疑慮嘛那我個人是認為說其實反正可定可不定定的話也許對於當事人來講可能看起來比較完整但是如果說認為不需要定的話那麼直接12 13條其實也不會影響到這個整部法律的體力"},{"start":11556.923,"end":11563.752,"text":"那重點我覺得還是在第12條跟第13條裡面涉及到有關於處罰的問題這才是大家最有爭議的"},{"start":11565.302,"end":11586.818,"text":"好 那麼翁委員的意見 就是說11條跟刑事訴訟125條一模一樣那如果我們在 因為我們本法 稅審法是新訂法所以沒有所謂的免於增列的問題他就是說 如果認為沒有這個條文的必要那有可能後面的條文 條次上如果有引述到11條 都可能因此而調整"},{"start":11587.839,"end":11602.07,"text":"那這個部分請趕快示範看一下那不然我們第十一條先暫時先暫保留我們先從十二條因為十一條可能就整個拿掉了那後面的條文會不會因此而受到影響十一條是不是在做一些補充數好來請副名長"},{"start":11603.271,"end":11624.806,"text":"其實有關於十一條要不要保留 當時在委員會的時候也把它當作一個議題 討論了很久可是最後很懸殊的十一票比一票大家都認為 絕大部分人都認為要保留那為什麼 就是說因為就是說十二條以下談的都是協力義務那是稅審法的一個特點沒錯那但是剛才那個廳長有講 那個"},{"start":11627.288,"end":11640.113,"text":"當事人協力義務跟法院那個職權調查事實上他們是互相補充的那如果說11條不定的話大家會不會誤解說那個職權不在了對所以說他是從這樣子就是說11條呢他雖然說是一個重複的一個條文但是是整個體系是這樣子下來的先把那個11條就是開宗明義還是講了"},{"start":11649.617,"end":11673.345,"text":"行政法院他有那個職權調查事實在下一個協力義務是擺在這邊的那個角色那以下那個協力義務呢都還是在整個這個體系底下開展下來的也因此大家認為說如果不這樣子的話是不是還要再怎麼樣的那個說明就是大家才會了解說這個關係那以上做一個補充報告"},{"start":11674.244,"end":11700.571,"text":"好謝謝副秘書長也容主席這邊說明從稅申法我們從詢答還有公聽會大體討論一直以來那包括今天委員上午在委員會的各種討論雖然司法院在新訂法上都強調了這也是關係到納稅義務人本身的權利的保障透過程序上來完整化他的規定但是文字上呢包括剛剛在第十條是否要依職權"},{"start":11701.611,"end":11711.048,"text":"的文字要不要納入這樣的事項上相對於行政法院所刻意的義務包括依職權來調查的義務你們也覺得如果沒有放這11條那麼因為11條關於的是"},{"start":11715.267,"end":11735.76,"text":"那個行政法院有他的議職權應該的義務那納稅義務人也有協力之義務但是呢你剛剛也說了從12條以後都是在規範納稅義務人的協力義務所以難免會讓委員覺得說整個稅審法有點像不要說像行政機關啦有點像行政法院像"},{"start":11737.475,"end":11754.783,"text":"司法機關來傾斜啦就是同樣的都要求行政法院要議資源要去做什麼什麼事情也要求納稅一輪要什麼什麼的事情但是對於納稅一輪做或不做你們有規定很多那麼對於行政法院本身應職權應作為的事情就只有個概括性的描述而已所以從11條到第16條11條你們也是象徵性的"},{"start":11758.805,"end":11772.151,"text":"行政訴訟法第125條搬進來然後表達說有職權的行政法院有職權的義務納稅義務人也有協力義務可是後面的條文都是在規範納稅義務人我只是說一般外界從條文的設計觀感上來講會有點對於納稅義務人比較嚴苛啦"},{"start":11777.993,"end":11803.482,"text":"我想這是今天一直主席以來一直聽到現在以來的感覺難怪委員一直對於說這個稅審法的設置到底有沒有有利於納稅藝人他的權利的保障的部分才會不斷的提出納保法的一些精神才會提出說我們這樣的一個程序性的規定可不可以去侵犯到其他實體法的規定我想這個都可以在後面的闡述請你們一一補充那因為委員的提議那我們就先從第12條繼續好不好來 翁委員請"},{"start":11806.4,"end":11819.951,"text":"建議就是說你們在第11條的立法理由裡面因為在第一點裡面說參考行政訴訟法第125條第一項但是其實你們是參考整個行政訴訟法的125條所以我建議說第一項的這個可以刪除"},{"start":11824.995,"end":11851.233,"text":"是不是 你們是整個就參考 因為你們的條文是跟行政訴訟法一模一樣的所以多 第11條的立法理由的第一點 立法理由的第一點報告委員 我們會引127條第一項是因為它針對第一項 本草案本條的第一項因為委員可以看一下我們的說明五 說明五最後"},{"start":11851.673,"end":11866.439,"text":"他也說訂定第四項是參考行政訴訟法125條第四項的規定所以我們是是拆開來對啦我知道你們是拆開來每一項每一項但是其實你們其實就是把這個條文就是整個行政訴訟法125條就搬到這邊的第11條"},{"start":11868.76,"end":11892.423,"text":"OK這是立法理由給你們一點建議或許可以把它講得更清楚就是你整個就是參考一二五條好那麼我們第十一條還是先暫保留那我們繼續往十二條以後推進那麼先處理一個程序上的宣告由於上午會議截止時間將屆我們先處理會議時間上午會議時間繼續進行至議程所列事項告一段落為止謝謝那我們繼續那請就十二條來表示意見"},{"start":11904.333,"end":11920.988,"text":"12條的規範目的是認為說行政法院為了要認定事實是可以命納稅義務人或者是他的代表人管理人或者是有權代表之人"},{"start":11921.849,"end":11945.4,"text":"提出其依法應提供的這些相關資料那第三項是考慮到境外的資料那如果涉及到境外的資料而且這個資料是納稅醫務人員委託第三人第三人保管的話那這個時候是可以命第三人然後提出這個境外的相關資料"},{"start":11946.44,"end":11972.72,"text":"那第四項的規定當然就是說賦予它一個法律效果就是如果你沒有正當理由不提出的話法院於必要時得以裁定為強制處分那在跟委員報告的是說這裡我們雖然是規範納稅義務人的協力義務但是其實當事人的另一兆也就是稅捐機關"},{"start":11973.641,"end":11990.937,"text":"因為他根據行政訴訟法164條的規定他本來如果他是機關為當事人的時候他本來就他所長有的這一些的文書資料他就是有提出的義務所以機關的提出義務已經明定在"},{"start":11992.478,"end":12016.269,"text":"這個行政訴訟法的規定那這是跟委員報告的那我們有比較過就是說當事人資料提出的義務那相關的義務其實都是行政訴訟法有規範那唯一不一樣的是第四項的部分就是我們這個時候除了法院如果在當事人"},{"start":12017.049,"end":12036.682,"text":"不從提出文書之命他除了可以適用行政訴訟法165條的規定去做一些這個判斷之外他還有如果認為必要的時候在這裡我們賦予他是說可以以裁定為強制處分"},{"start":12038.383,"end":12054.037,"text":"那所以跟委員報告的就是這裡以裁定為強制處分是目前行政訴訟法所沒有的規定但是也要同時跟委員敘明就是說這一條的規定仍然有行政訴訟法165條規定的適用"},{"start":12062.435,"end":12076.002,"text":"好 那麼請委員會注意剛剛列席官代表提到第12條的第4項的時候有特別提醒大家看我們立法說明了第5項那裡面有援引行政書長第165條的一些規範好 那麼請問委員會對於第12條或者說後續12 13 14 15 16都可以一併表示意見"},{"start":12091.718,"end":12119.057,"text":"好來 翁委員請其實從12條之後呢其實就是我們剛剛所討論的裡面會克與就是當事人的協力義務而且對於違反這樣的協力義務行政法院其實有蠻大的權力不僅可以做強制處分甚至還可以對違反協力義務者然後進行處罰那但是呢這就讓我又回想到我們在國會改革釋憲案裡面"},{"start":12121.274,"end":12144.371,"text":"那麼其實對於行政官員到立法院來備詢來接受質詢我們針對如果說無故缺席或是沒有配合立法院委員的要求要提出相關的一些資料證據然後除以"},{"start":12147.208,"end":12160.513,"text":"處罰那麼大法官都認為說其實這些官員是沒有配合的義務沒有配合立法院的義務沒有法律的義務那麼如果說真的看到這些官員那麼他們說謊"},{"start":12162.494,"end":12182.865,"text":"無故缺席提供虛偽資料那可以透過其他的手段然後去制裁他們但是不能夠科與處罰那同樣的邏輯就在第12條第13條等等這些規律對於當事人他們如果沒有配合行政法院的要求提供相關的"},{"start":12185.561,"end":12208.188,"text":"這個資料證據或是沒有出席但其實法院也可以依照他們的這個行為就科與他們就不利的這個裁判那麼有沒有必要要到就是要去科處罰緩的這件事情而且剛剛聽起來像是第12條的第4項"},{"start":12211.521,"end":12239.727,"text":"這個強制處分的規定也是不同於現在行政訴訟法裡面的規定這是你們這次特別這個新立的新增訂的這樣的一個規定所以這個整個的整體來說就行政法院的手段會不會太強了那在這次的稅審法的草案其實已經有不少的"},{"start":12241.243,"end":12259.154,"text":"外界的專家學者也認為說在這個稅審法裡面有很多的規定是像是行政訴訟法的一個特別規定那麼如果說要整個要拉高整個行政訴訟法裡面對於行政法院"},{"start":12260.409,"end":12288.934,"text":"在進行裁判的時候一些他的這個行為的這個效力的話那應該要整體的去檢討行政訴訟法相關規定可是呢在稅審法裡面卻又定了不少是有別於行政訴訟法的規定所以對於第四條第四項現在12條第四項這裡有沒有必要以裁定要為強制處分這個部分我是有疑慮的"},{"start":12296.016,"end":12310.486,"text":"這條規定對於當事人違反資料提出義務的話他的法律效果是可以得以裁定為強制處分或者是如我剛才講的就用到行政訴訟法165條也就是"},{"start":12312.788,"end":12341.61,"text":"可以斟酌情形認為他照關於該文書的主張或該文書陰證的事實為真實那只有在第三人違反這一項協力義務的時候才會有多一個罰還的處分所以罰還是指罰第三人在當事人納稅義務人的這一個部分是沒有罰還的規定的在這裡的話罰第三人合理嗎"},{"start":12343.066,"end":12359.483,"text":"好請說明這第三人可能是配合的是處分機關還是指的是當事人因為其實我們不罰當事人是因為說是說用行政訴訟法165條的規定因為他是訴訟的當事人嘛"},{"start":12362.847,"end":12387.869,"text":"那如果斟酌證據的結果認為他不提出結果認為他照主張該項文書為真實其實他是敗訴的責任因為他可歸則但是第三人因為他不是訴訟當事人我們沒有辦法運用這樣的規定因為第三人不提出就導致原告納稅一文的訴訟遭受不利益的結果因此才會在科與一個罰緩處分"},{"start":12389.27,"end":12395.877,"text":"那這個也是目前行政訴訟法相關的規定也是這麼規定的關於第三人的部分好 關於第12條委員垂詢的部分以及第四項那麼都有做回應了還有 委員要繼續追問嗎"},{"start":12411.218,"end":12435.459,"text":"對我這裡其實我還就是能不能舉一個例子或是不知道次長這裡有沒有在過去你們的實務案例上面有沒有可能會是有這個第三人不配合然後而要受到處罰這個翁委員你的科稅資料就放在我這邊了假設當然了這個牽扯到整個協力義務"},{"start":12439.002,"end":12452.797,"text":"我就說我從第一天到剛剛我在談的時候還沒離開本委員到別的委員會之前我現在談的是說我們既然去把德國這些精華把它給移過來 寄授過來的話"},{"start":12454.358,"end":12476.33,"text":"那本來這個就是一個觀念的一個變革啦否則的話你如果剛剛像黃國昌委員在我相信他也受到很多不一樣的團體的一些請託那那一些也倒也不是說沒有道理但問題就是說涉及到你變成整個制度小怕電啦 小怕電啦"},{"start":12477.25,"end":12493.406,"text":"你如果認為你要嚴格去採行整個用整個刑事訴訟法的觀點去看待他的話那確實是你連協力義務都沒有可是你如果看這個人有時候觀念就看你怎麼樣去看待一個"},{"start":12494.467,"end":12508.003,"text":"一個整個像進入到訴訟案件裡面你說國家就要去科稅那像譬如說要跟公務員你科稅可是你的基本的資料你要委託放在我這個地方"},{"start":12509.144,"end":12516.448,"text":"我這個地方如果說完全都沒有任何的協力的義務的話這個案子又會開花你去看整個行政訴訟法裡面165條跟到169條169條的部分他是在講說可以第三人的罰款的部分這個本來行政訴訟法本來就有這樣的規定"},{"start":12527.515,"end":12541.42,"text":"那你如果認為說這部法令我們這個稅務行政審理法的部分它是它的特別法的話那你去准用到169這個是又合理啦但是在第三人的部分"},{"start":12544.975,"end":12568.656,"text":"我是認為是有道理啦 我是認為是有道理啦但是你的疑慮 你剛提到的是說那我們在整個前面 大法官世事會議裡面的解釋其實大法官 憲法庭那一號的一個解釋是在講說對第三人這個裁罰 那這個是專屬於就司法機關啦到認為立法機關沒有這樣的一個權限"},{"start":12569.817,"end":12580.623,"text":"所以這樣的一個比喻 這個我當然尊重但是我是認為比較 跟這個地方比較是無關只是涉及到第三人部分不知道咧 大家再討論看看"},{"start":12586.837,"end":12606.597,"text":"好 這樣好不好 那麼在場委員 因為事實上第11條到第16條上次是應委員請求我們就先不處理那今天本來要處理 但是處理起來似乎有不同意見者 或者有保留意見者仍然沒有參與審查"},{"start":12607.958,"end":12626.765,"text":"所以我是不是建議這樣我們先就今天在場委員之前的暫保留條文當中有在場的部分我們先處理好不好因為這樣子才能把握各位委員在場時間我們做有效率的推進那我是不是建議委員會我們先11到16因為剛剛11條已經表達意見了12條已經表達意見了但是接下來13 14 15 16"},{"start":12628.806,"end":12650.979,"text":"感覺上還是暫時先因為我們等於是啟動處理但是有相關委員的意見沒有進來那我們先進行27條好不好因為27條是上次翁委員在場翁委員非常關心的第27條行政法院認同原處分複查決定或訴願決定之理由者得於裁判中"},{"start":12652.298,"end":12677.193,"text":"引用之那您提出說這個是不是行政訴訟法當中應該也要有但是那時候沒有那我們現在在這個特別法先這樣規定是否恰當上次我記得討論是到這裡那是不是今天可以就這個部分繼續闡明是否我整理一下上次的爭點上次爭點是這個條文的規定在原來行政訴訟法當中並沒有"},{"start":12679.634,"end":12697.973,"text":"那我們現在在特別法當中先把它規定了這是可能對於納稅義務人士有利的那但是呢我們要等到行政事務手法有了這邊就不用規定了還是這邊可以先規定未來我們行政事務手法認為有道理再把它補充進去大概是這樣子 我覺得上次討論的內容那請教在場委員跟公務委員"},{"start":12704.246,"end":12711.893,"text":"那個列席機關有可以就這部分的一個有一個什麼樣的說法可以讓委員會覺得我們就在稅審法當中先於規範"},{"start":12715.701,"end":12741.708,"text":"報告委員們那其實這一條就是因為目前行政訴訟法的規定只能夠是上級審跟下級審法律見解一樣的話他可以引用下級審裁判的理由那這一條是針對我們稅務訴訟尤其是像原處分複查決定跟這個訴願決定的理由在目前行政訴訟法的規定是沒有辦法引用的那"},{"start":12742.468,"end":12770.49,"text":"之前也有跟委員報告其實這一條除了是我們是希望能夠其中一個目標是希望能夠減輕法官的負擔簡化判決書的製作那因為去年其實發生了一件法官的一個不幸事件那我們也很感謝委員們都很關心法官過勞的工作的狀況那所以也督促司法院要採行檢法工程"},{"start":12771.19,"end":12785.684,"text":"所以司法院在這裡也做了一些檢法的工程我們也是希望如果委員能夠支持如果這部法案能夠通過就先在這裡通過我覺得對法官來講那個意義應該也是不一樣的"},{"start":12789.187,"end":12811.345,"text":"就是可以感受到各界委員的關心那如果之後有機會我們行政訴訟法或相關的法律我們再逐步來採取同步的修正那以上 謝謝謝謝莊委員我有一個問題要問因為有時候司法實務上你常常會碰到那個判決"},{"start":12813.82,"end":12823.748,"text":"或者說你那個原來行政部門的處分看起來是結果你的判斷法官判斷是對可是那個理由也是很瞎"},{"start":12831.765,"end":12860.604,"text":"你們不是那個你們現在講的是處分我現在講的是理由對 是說裁判是我們希望能夠在法官的裁判書類可以用那可以用就是代表他所表示的一些的見解你把他的理由這邊去做一個引用是已經在稅務訴訟這一塊是普遍共同都認同的見解那我們在講說那法官在判決時"},{"start":12861.084,"end":12867.255,"text":"可是你進行到你到稅務輸送的時候你搞不好當事人又提出新的供給防禦方法"},{"start":12868.516,"end":12892.929,"text":"對 那就要寫啊但是現在是說如果訴願決定或複查決定他的理由啊我們認為是可採的 合理的或他表示法律見解我們認為就已經是通實務通一般性的見解了那我們是不是就可以直接引用那當然如果他寫得不好我們當然不會用法官就會自行在裁判書理由裡面來交代好 好"},{"start":12894.312,"end":12922.043,"text":"好 謝謝喔 那個跟委員說明因為我們可以參考行政訴訟法第261-1它是指最高行政法院可以如與高等行政法院判決相同的引用之啦那麼這個在行政法院有這樣的規定是在最高跟高等之間那現在呢 行政法院可不可以也是一樣認同原處分機關的這些相關的內容好 那我這樣好不好 那個委員因為上次您表達這樣意見之後呢他們也經過了解了"},{"start":12922.443,"end":12938.171,"text":"那剛剛我聽起來司法機關也表達說是為了減少我們法院的負擔在書寫相關的內容的時候呢可以對於適當的內容就直接引用那這個程序上是有助於我們"},{"start":12939.54,"end":12965.87,"text":"審判品質的提升啦那是否呢這一條喔老實說從今天一直到現在大家都充分發言嘛那主席這邊也很希望說上市站保留這個部分如果大家覺得經過了一段時間的沉澱是否可以因為他的關係到我們今天的增點的部分不大幾乎沒有涉及到相關的所謂的協力義務啦還是稅審官的部分純粹只是就法院他要在做在做"},{"start":12967.03,"end":12976.276,"text":"這個裁判的時候呢他可以減少他的負擔那是否可以請求我們委員會這一條是不是可以來予通過好不好來請翁委員"},{"start":12980.515,"end":13004.446,"text":"其實還是這個回到我們之前所講的就是其實稅審法裡面有一些規定它確實是看起來想要當成是行政訴訟法的一個特別的規定那麼剛剛講的不管是27條或是前面的條文如果說真的認為有必要"},{"start":13007.412,"end":13034.411,"text":"是为了要减轻法官的负担简化判决书的自作然后有必要检讨的话我认为还是要整体的检讨整体的检讨你就是直接去修行政诉讼法就好了这是我们在上次的时候就讲的而且你27条你有规定没规定其实这个对于法官来讲当然可能他就少一些裁判所的作业可是那为什么在原来的行政诉讼法里面他没有规定"},{"start":13035.231,"end":13061.431,"text":"就沒有要求就是說可以解免這個法官的製作判決書的這樣的一個這樣的責任一定也有他的道理好 跟翁偉遠說明要不要請稅務機關表達意見因為他們上次是提到說複查決定這在其他行政訴訟完全沒有的其實不少法官其實也是會援引這個行政處分裡面的一些理由啊那麼請那個翁偉遠我們請那個稅務機關請財政部代表說明"},{"start":13065.848,"end":13081.318,"text":"主要是27條因為他這邊的規範他有引用到他提到就是複查決定或訴願決定因為行政訴訟法一般我們稅務事件的審理只有稅務事件的審理有複查決定這個程序"},{"start":13082.102,"end":13108.988,"text":"所以在這邊把複查決定寫進來那將來如果在行政訴訟碼要修的話會變成可能要特別強調特別強調是稅務事件才有複查決定它這個複查決定是行政訴訟法裡面沒有的啦是只有我們稅捐積增法裡面的稅務訴訟的程序有這個程序這樣子其實就譬如說像教育教育事務裡面它也有所謂再申訴吧"},{"start":13110.39,"end":13127.876,"text":"它也是兩個管道一個訴願管道一個是申訴再申訴其實如果說就這樣子一個法理來說如果我們認為說它是未來是有效可以減輕法官的負擔然後簡化判決書製作的話行政訴訟法的修正應該要整體的檢討修正包含原來的處分"},{"start":13132.937,"end":13157.782,"text":"然後複查決定或是再申訴的決定等等的那麼我覺得還是應該要一併來檢討會比較好就有這條跟沒這條會影響到稅務行政現在就是在這個稅務行政審理法來說的話我覺得應該沒有差別太大這點應該比較沒爭議它是把行政訴訟法裡面沒有你那個複查決定你放在整個稅務訴訟法裡面你把它給放進來不可以"},{"start":13159.602,"end":13163.224,"text":"就是沒有允許行政法院可以將原處分我的疑慮就是說行政訴訟法我都認為我可以理解啦但是27條這個部分我看來是比較沒有爭議而且對訴訟當事人來看的話他權益也不會去受損反而是比較在於"},{"start":13181.736,"end":13187.342,"text":"在整個法官他整個書類的製作把它做簡化的問題其實現在書類製作會增加有多少負擔嗎會喔我覺得要不要再解釋清楚一點請說明 解釋清楚"},{"start":13199.695,"end":13227.682,"text":"對就是說如果說你不直接引用的話是你要重新再審理各個不同的理由再把每個理由你為什麼支持原處分的理由再寫一遍的意思嗎不用寫就不用寫就是說關於這一個部分的爭執就是理由就如這個訴願決定或者複查決定的記載這樣子是但是現在不是也都會在這個訴願決定跟原處分決定也都會列在那個判決理由啊在前面的幾項裡面"},{"start":13233.072,"end":13242.998,"text":"所以交代過也是有它的好處因為它可以讓當事人還有最後在研究法院判決的專家學者們可以更了解它整個脈絡"},{"start":13245.263,"end":13254.227,"text":"那你去看喔 那個歐元這個書類的簡化那確實是幫助很大喔你看以前那個解說書喔 那大本啦現在這樣簡單寫著以後 後面的證據清單證人的證人名什麼的寫下來以後 代證資質什麼的以後不是貼上 很快的"},{"start":13264.032,"end":13284.023,"text":"確實這個部分我認為27條啦27條是到不會涉及到你所擔憂的說被對當事人來講會有什麼樣的一個不利益啦是單純的書類的一個簡化這個我們在社會法制委員會裡面我們一直在支持他們的事情我反而在整個稅務訴訟法裡面把它放進去是一個進步的啦"},{"start":13285.144,"end":13311.503,"text":"應該這麼說我當然是支持任何可以去減輕法官負擔裁判書簡化的這個規定的修正只是認為說在這件事情上面應該是要讓司法院去積極的去研修行政訴訟法而不是說他們這個現在修了這個訴審法之後那行政訴訟法然後之後呢也沒修更何況我還是認為說就整個的法院"},{"start":13312.304,"end":13316.205,"text":"法官在做相關判決的時候還是要有一個一致性的標準我認為這比較好更何況就現在的法官的這個因為數位化電子化他們的這個裁判的製作應該是比早期還用手寫的時候要這個要簡單一些了那麼如果說從對於當事人還有對於就是外部的這個人士對於這個判決有興趣要研讀的話那當然還是"},{"start":13342.37,"end":13358.088,"text":"法院在判決書裡面能夠完整呈現他所做成的理由我覺得這個是比較重要的所以第27條的部分我建議如果我是認為說應該就還是回到原來行政訴訟法相關規定是沒有必要在這裡有多規定這一項"},{"start":13360.579,"end":13385.827,"text":"謝謝翁委員的寶貴意見那麼容本席主席這邊稍微描述一下過去當立法委員期間我們受理陳情的情況可能大家在剛剛的討論中以為只有簡化書狀只是減輕法官的裁判負擔那讓那個審判書的內容不要負擔那麼重不要那麼厚一本那其實呢就我們過去在受理民眾民眾常常覺得法院的判決書"},{"start":13387.347,"end":13398.991,"text":"他們真的覺得要能從頭讀到尾的耐性實在是理解力上是有限所以往往都要聽從訴訟代理人或請求專業律師的協助當我們拿到民眾陳情給我們看一本厚厚的判決書的時候我們就會發現有時候呢的確就成如剛剛莊委員所說的一個簡單的判決他引用了原來的這個處分或者是複查決定我們還要回去翻查我們的確要翻查原來"},{"start":13415.436,"end":13437.849,"text":"陳先生所提供的那一落落場 我們就告訴他說這就是當初是就應該跟你講過了就是這樣理由 現在換他判了也是這個理由當時人還是會覺得說這些是在講什麼這我也是提出說這個我們的本法剛在第一條都提到就是整個的程序經濟那其實呢 如果這27條的內容上他會讓我們的審判判決書比較經濟比較讓"},{"start":13443.832,"end":13449.234,"text":"接到判決書的當事人他能夠去理解原來就是那一句話就是行政法院的判決就是如複查決定你就回去看你的複查決定這個其實就我們在處理陳情的時候呢也是很有幫助啦我只是說明說這個事情上不涉及到我們今天法案那幾個大家關注的爭點只是為了未來的書類啦"},{"start":13468.661,"end":13473.404,"text":"法官的書寫負擔還有包括接到判決書等的閱讀的負荷都有改善的餘地不過既然翁委員這麼堅持我們也沒有辦法往前推進還好黃委員回來了因為我們剛剛處理到第11條的部分那12條也表示意見了不過剛剛主席這邊請求委員會同意的處理方式就是11到16委員就這個整個核心"},{"start":13497.939,"end":13504.25,"text":"納稅義務人的協力義務的部分來進行意見表達那接下來呢我們還是一樣27條委員堅持我們還是暫保留那請黃委員"},{"start":13507.808,"end":13537.408,"text":"那個11條到16條我都有意見啦所以我的意見很清楚全部保留剛剛我說過了第二個部分現在已經是12點16分了嘛原例之前在處理妨礙司法公正罪的時候民進黨的委員都要求中午要休息嘛那請原例請主席宣告休息看你要休息到一點半休息到兩點通通都可以是不是針對我這個會議程序上面的事情請主席先處理"},{"start":13539.289,"end":13562.039,"text":"跟委員說明剛剛已經有做宣告了本來我們就是說會告一段落後繼續處理那因為剛剛我們在處理11條到16條的時候黃委員不在那上次也是應黃委員的表達所以我們把11條到16條保留到本次會議進行處理那我們今天處理的時候您又剛好不在那現在您一回來就是希望說"},{"start":13565.081,"end":13582.549,"text":"您說的保留是指條文保留可能是以送出委員會之後再協商的意思但是今天大家都很誠懇的想要聽有不同意見委員對於11條到16條協力義務的看法那是不是這個部分委員有要表達意見"},{"start":13586.318,"end":13615.469,"text":"先做一個程序上的說明啊我在立法院裡面的工作啊是沒有在閒著的我剛離開做什麼我先去交通委員會質詢質詢完以後我又去經濟委員會質詢兩場質詢趕完以後我人就回來現場了那你如果要問我的話到目前為止稅務行政事件審理法我只能夠說啦整個立法上面能不能夠達成立法的目的"},{"start":13616.482,"end":13623.548,"text":"都已經有一個很大的問號從今天討論的過程當中更是坑坑巴巴的"},{"start":13624.639,"end":13648.233,"text":"一條一條下去實際上面的討論才知道當初司法院所提出來的條文有多麼的粗糙至於說今天早上稅務行政事件審理法裡面本司法法治委員會的委員誰認真在審法案誰是連來都沒有來每一個公民眼睛都有"},{"start":13649.393,"end":13676.016,"text":"會看這整個會議的歷程所以我還是回來請主席按照上一次民主進步黨委員在處理妨礙司法公正罪的時候要求會議審理的原則中午的時候是不是可以請主席針對這個程序上面的事項先宣告先休息下午看幾點要再繼續開始審查是不是可以請主席先處理這件事情"},{"start":13678.507,"end":13704.576,"text":"謝謝 那麼我想本來主席就對於今天議事的推進就是希望早上整天的討論能夠有所進展那既然我們上午努力的就原來的第10條的處理內容廣泛的交換意見那也沒有辦法達成共識 也是暫保留那麼上次委員有意見的第27條我們經過了雙方意見的陳述有希望能夠處理 那也是沒有辦法推進"},{"start":13705.436,"end":13729.333,"text":"那至於上次委員會所未處理的第11條到16條以及第25條的部分那因應委員今天在上午的討論當中大部分都在處理第10條那麼我們本來希望進行的11到16條的處理由於時間所限現在也見中午休息時間了所以主席在這裡宣告"},{"start":13729.813,"end":13736.439,"text":"我們休息到下午一點半後我們繼續開會希望下午能夠繼續處理關於我們的協力義務以及我們關於稅審官的設置的問題那現在我們休息"},{"start":18350.967,"end":18367.886,"text":"好 繼續開會繼續進行討論事項第一案之逐條審查好 請問請教一下現在兩個人可以開會我們只是做討論而已沒有要做出處理要到人數夠才能處理所以其實還是尊重委員"},{"start":18483.375,"end":18497.166,"text":"請問在場委員會在場委員因為我們接下來上午已經有討論到12條那麼上午的進行的進度呢是到16條之前都有委員來提出他們對於包括"},{"start":18498.846,"end":18512.836,"text":"當事人協同義務的 協力義務的部分那協力義務的部分因為散見在每個條文的規定那麼上午的部分有討論到十二條的部分那麼後續我們還是繼續由委員們就這個協力義務的部分進行表示意見還請黃委員我先確認一下現在是會議進行中哪一種嗎"},{"start":18524.23,"end":18538.59,"text":"現在是繼續開會因為我們會議是成立的那麼但是呢如果現場要做任何條文的處理一定要人數到達法定額數但是討論是可以進行只是條文的處理一定要符合規定"},{"start":18539.929,"end":18562.918,"text":"但是我們可以做意見的討論不是啊 那現在代表是現在都沒辦法處理就對了嗎譬如說啦是 請我現在要求第十一條保留那主席可以財事保留嗎沒有辦法那沒辦法 那這樣講下去有什麼意思各位委員報告因為我們還有十三 十四 十五 十六都是上市保留未經處理的暫保留未經處理的"},{"start":18857.329,"end":18858.711,"text":"有沒有對於11條 因為我現在不能說謝謝"},{"start":18909.858,"end":18935.833,"text":"好那麼謝謝委員那現在我們上午已經處理到第不是處理已經討論到第12條那事實上呢從11條12條的部分呢我們都是進行意見交換那麼在場的委員對於11條到第16條"},{"start":18939.526,"end":18958.027,"text":"當事人協力義務的部分有沒有需要我們行政機關在座闡明的來請黃委員第11條的部分我已經清楚表達我反對的意見了那我是提議第11條保留我們一條一條往下走"},{"start":18960.756,"end":18981.556,"text":"謝謝委員的意見那事實上上午委員會我們也都是就11條到第16條都做意見交換11條的部分上午是先暫保留那下午的部分12條也討論了討論到一部分那但是就是尊重委員會的意見那麼是否我們因為當時12條也沒有做成任何的決定那還有13條14條15條那麼"},{"start":18985.459,"end":19002.385,"text":"還有到16條是不是請委員會委員對於這相關條文因為要說明一下上次我們要處理要進行審查的時候有委員提出就是在場的黃委員提出11條到16條以及第25條11條到第16條是當事人的協力義務25條是稅審官的設置那麼這已經在委員會重複表達過多次了那麼應由委員要求所以我們將它沒有處理"},{"start":19014.289,"end":19027.2,"text":"那沒有處理就是連討論都沒有討論那因此今天上午我們除了第10條進行討論之外那麼還有第27條上市委員討論的部分似乎有可能在得到共識那麼因此有在做處理做討論"},{"start":19029.742,"end":19047.24,"text":"那麼接下來我們就是進行11條到第16條的討論那11條的部分委員有表示一些意見不過今天上午的委員有對11條表示意見的委員目前不在有陳委員有在陳委員就有這個表示意見那12條的部分"},{"start":19049.022,"end":19068.863,"text":"也有委員表示意見但是委員也不在所以是不是請就12條到16條的部分因為這是剛剛才開始處理的所以委員會希望委員可以就這個內容上表達具體意見那麼就算是最後的處理我們也很清楚可以知道提交給院會之前我們具體的建議是什麼來 請歡迎委員"},{"start":19073.67,"end":19088.796,"text":"為什麼說我建議一條一條來啊那十一條的部分不是沒討論啊上午就討論啊我發言還發言了不少啊那我現在要求的就是按照我們本委員會過去在處理相關法案的時候我們處理的基本原則啊委員有意見就保留啊我做的只有這樣子的要求而已啊是不是第十一條的部分"},{"start":19101.804,"end":19128.498,"text":"我請求11條的部分保留是不是可以請主席先處理好 那麼11條的確上午委員表示意見的時候是認為跟行政訴訟法當中是重複那請問機關有沒有要再表示意見說這裡面因為後面你們有講到12條的部分有涉及到如果沒有11條那麼12條全部都是就當事人的部分的指導那麼對於11條的部分只有"},{"start":19129.588,"end":19156.29,"text":"就是重複而已是不是機關可以再讓你們表達意見我們就處理好不好請主席跟各位委員那我們就重申我們的立場就是11條如果留下來的話它整個體系體力上看起來是會比較完整比較漂亮那如果就是說要保留的話這我們也尊重委員會的決定好謝謝那我們11條就保留接下來我們進行12條請"},{"start":19159.522,"end":19183.699,"text":"12條的部分一樣我們一項一項來先就12條第一項當事人就與裁判有關係的事實因為真實及完全的陳述就這個部分當事人真實完全陳述的義務跟目前行政訴訟法的規定到底有什麼不一樣請市法院說明好請陳庭長這目前是跟行政訴訟法122條的第二項規定是相同的"},{"start":19189.471,"end":19200.809,"text":"等一下喔 來來來行政訴訟法不好意思喔 你稍微等我一下因為我行政訴訟法的條文沒有那麼熟第一次"},{"start":19206.937,"end":19221.815,"text":"行政訴訟法122條第二項第二項當事人應就訴訟關係為事實上及法律上的陳述拜託拜託真實完全陳述的義務跟行政訴訟法122條第二項一樣"},{"start":19224.5,"end":19241.175,"text":"你是講錯還是沒講錯啊 拜託你們好不好真實完全陳述的義務行政訴訟法準用民事訴訟法195條來來來 我帶司法院的官員看一下條文 先翻一下132條132條準用民事訴訟法195條的規定"},{"start":19254.751,"end":19268.346,"text":"來看一下195條的規定當事人就其所提出的事實因為真實及完全的陳述這個才是真實完全陳述義務的條文啊啊你們行政那你們司法院的官員怎麼對行政訴訟法會這麼不熟亂引條文啊"},{"start":19279.724,"end":19291.629,"text":"要答覆嗎?當然啊不是啊 官員坐在這邊列席法條做說明要負責任的啊真實完全陳述的義務怎麼會是行政訴訟法122條第二項好 請列席一貫代表說明"},{"start":19297.591,"end":19322.952,"text":"我們這一條是綜合了122條跟民事訴訟法195條還有德國財務法院法76條的規定所做的你不是說什麼叫做綜合規定然後就這樣子就過去了先看一下行政訴訟法真實完全陳述的義務是准用民事訴訟法195條的規定"},{"start":19325.697,"end":19345.302,"text":"民事訴訟法195條的規定當事人就其提出的事實因為真實及完全的陳述然後你們現在是當事人就裁判有關的事實因為真實及完全的陳述那我的問題來了行政訴訟法准用民事訴訟法195條第一項的規定"},{"start":19348.072,"end":19366.79,"text":"跟你們現在在稅務行政事件審理法裡面第十二條第一項前段的規定法條所用的文字顯有不同你們是有意做特別規定嗎如果有意做特別規定的話理由何在說明一下"},{"start":19369.932,"end":19388.04,"text":"主席這邊也問一下因為122條第二項是寫事實上及法律上之陳述那剛剛機關代表說是寫真實及完全之陳述用詞是不太一樣那你們意思是一樣的意思嗎不一樣啦不一樣你去看嘛"},{"start":19389.797,"end":19408.888,"text":"行政訴訟法的122條第二項當事人應就訴訟關係為事實上及法律上面的陳述這一個陳述之本身這一個陳述之本身跟我們在講的當事人就事實上面應有真實及完全陳述之義務是兩回事情是兩回事情這沒有真的 我覺得有點混淆了因為12條的文字跟"},{"start":19417.441,"end":19423.754,"text":"行政署長122條的文字不太一樣那請機關長明確說明是一樣還是不一樣還是哪裡不一樣"},{"start":19425.516,"end":19453.726,"text":"就是法條的用語沒有完全的一致但是我們的立法的目的跟精神都是一樣那當時人到法院來做的陳述當然應該是要做一個真實的陳述不可能做一個虛偽的陳述那所以我們在這邊而且是就與裁判有關的事實那我們還就事實的部分在限定是限定與裁判有關的事實那這是以上不同的地方 謝謝"},{"start":19454.446,"end":19481.402,"text":"不是啊 請你們解釋並不是進行法條進行說文解釋嘛剛剛我就講了啊目前行政訴訟法準用的是民事訴訟法195條的規定嘛民事訴訟法195條第一項之規定當事人就其所提出之事實因為真實及完全的陳述這個在行政訴訟的領域裡面有適用我的第一個問題是那你在稅務行政事件審理法裡面"},{"start":19482.762,"end":19501.384,"text":"第十二條的第一項前段再寫一次寫的方法不一樣本來用行政訴訟法準用民事訴訟法的規定會有什麼問題第二個在法條的文字上是有意的區別對待還是無心為之"},{"start":19505.31,"end":19531.08,"text":"這個是不是容我說明一下那個民事訴訟法195條它的那個用語說當事人就其提出了事實那這個事實上是在那個民事訴訟辯論主義底下就只有那個當事人他所提出的那個事實呢法院才能夠斟酌那所以就是在這邊的那個文字它是就是因為行政訴訟採的是那個職權主義"},{"start":19533.681,"end":19557.074,"text":"所以他並不是說就只有限於當事人他自己要提出來的而是就那個裁判有關的事實啊那再來就是說為什麼會跟行政訴訟的這個條文不一樣呢他是有業區別行政訴訟這邊呢就是完整完整陳述的這個範圍呢除了事實還有有關於法律所以等一下我看一下條文"},{"start":19560.456,"end":19574.785,"text":"就是122條第二項就是就訴訟關係為事實及法律上的陳述那這個地方是把那個法律呢這個地方就是有意的把它那個排除掉就只有涉及到裁判的事實請換委員我就跟你們講你們在引的那個行政訴訟法122條"},{"start":19586.892,"end":19599.896,"text":"第二項的規定來看一下民事訴訟法193條第一項當事人應就訴訟關係為事實上及法律上的陳述不是長得一模一樣你行政訴訟法122條你剛剛所講的122條第二項的規定跟民事訴訟法相對應的條文哪是195條是193條第一項"},{"start":19620.376,"end":19637.688,"text":"你法條文字一看不就知道了嗎啊也沒有做清楚完整的理解啊在立法院這邊在那邊穿鑿附會隨便亂講第二個部分啊剛剛副秘書長所指教的請容我再說一下"},{"start":19647.796,"end":19666.255,"text":"民事訴訟前面通則性的規定不管是採取辯論主義還是職權探知主義除非在職權探知的部分有排除要不然通通都有適用民事訴訟不是只有採取辯論主義原則採取辯論主義沒有錯例外的時候還是採取職權探知主義"},{"start":19671.941,"end":19698.602,"text":"剛剛在那邊所講的當事人為真實完全的陳述跟辯論主義以及職權探知主義的區別毫無關係啊那你就從辯論主義的三個命題開始講嘛當事人所沒有主張的事實法院不可以引為判決的基礎當事人所不真實的事實法院必須要引為判決的基礎當事人所沒有聲明的證據法院不可以依照職權來加以調查"},{"start":19700.675,"end":19721.22,"text":"這是古典辯論主義的三命題嘛在職權探知主義的時候這三個命題就變更了當事人沒有主張的事實法院也可以引為判決的基礎當事人所自認的事實法院也不受拘束當事人所沒有聲明的證據法院也可以依照職權加以調查這是辯論主義跟職權探知主義的區別啊"},{"start":19726.493,"end":19746.499,"text":"這個區別跟195條第一項當事人就其所提出的事實因為真實且完全的陳述一點關係也沒有啊第二個最好的印證是什麼就如同您所講的啊在行政訴訟職權主義的色彩重即使職權主義的色彩重民事訴訟法195條第一項一樣準用啊行政訴訟啊職權主義的色彩重啊"},{"start":19755.925,"end":19780.463,"text":"所以就直接准用民事訴訟法195條第一項的規定啊完全的印證我剛剛所提出來的說明那你們現在要說明的是什麼行政訴訟准用民事訴訟法195條第一項稅務事件審理法你們認為有必要做特別的規定那個特別的規定是相對於行政訴訟"},{"start":19782.761,"end":19800.873,"text":"稅務行政事件相對於一般的行政訴訟在行政訴訟所准用的195條第一項的規定在稅務行政事件到底有什麼特殊性要針對行政訴訟所准用的那個條文去做法條上面的區別對待這是我的問題"},{"start":19806.65,"end":19811.641,"text":"你如果真的聽得懂我剛剛所講的問題你就會發現你剛剛的回答根本就不是回答"},{"start":19816.287,"end":19843.458,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員講得非常精闢那麼在這裡呢可能也引發我們在場其他委員我先就本席部分因為你們的12條就我文字上來解讀第一項是寫真實及完全之陳述那行政訴訟法第122條第二項談的是為事實上及法律上之陳述那這個文字內容呢比較接近於民事訴訟法的"},{"start":19844.338,"end":19844.719,"text":"第193條193條民事訴訟法193條"},{"start":19852.785,"end":19880.611,"text":"事實上及法律上之陳述嘛那是然後到195條才是寫真實及完全嘛那麼真的也有點疑惑我們不是法律科班的193條的事實上及法律上之陳述和民事訴訟法第195條因為真實及完全之陳述那這兩個語句呢對應到目前我們稅審法當中你們用的文字是真實及完全之陳述是比較接近於"},{"start":19881.351,"end":19909.579,"text":"民事訴訟法195條但是你們的條文說明說你們又是參考了行政訴訟法第122條第二項那個文字上又接近於我們民事訴訟法的193條那剛剛黃委員指教的就是說這有學理上的差別那老實說這個學理上的差別在實務上的應用上會產生什麼樣的效果的確會是讓在場委員聽了之後至少本席會認為是很想要了解的那請問這個部分機關代表是不是有什麼說明"},{"start":19925.308,"end":19949.8,"text":"其實我想我還是回歸到我剛才講的就是說當然法條的用語文字或有一些的不同但是我們這裡所希望在稅務行政訴訟事件就是科與當事人真實完全的陳述的義務我想這一點應該是毋庸置疑的那至於第一項的後段"},{"start":19950.38,"end":19974.623,"text":"就是對於他照當事人所提出的事實及證據應為陳述這個就是相對陳述或答辯的義務這一部分的規定就是跟民事訴訟法195條的第二項的規定是相同的"},{"start":19975.123,"end":19995.255,"text":"那也許我們參考的法條立法理由所寫的參考的法條那只是就是說我們是參考了這一些的條文的規定然後融合了它的規範的意旨然後行諸於在我們條文的文字"},{"start":19996.944,"end":20021.18,"text":"龍主席這邊先也是建議啦過去在之前的審查當中也的確在立法說明的部分也引起委員的一些質疑那麼後來呢機關代表也有就委員的質疑後你們去修正了你們的立法說明那如果你們立法說明目前強調的行政訴訟法第120條第二項以及民事訴訟法第195條對應到你的12條第一項的"},{"start":20026.203,"end":20054.366,"text":"前半段跟後半段是有不同對應的時候那可能你們在立法說明上是不是完整的充分的表達因為你們很精簡那麼讀起來可能就有一些奇異或混淆好那這個部分提醒你們那請黃委員繼續我想討論到這邊有學過訴訟法的人都聽懂了我到底在說什麼我再強調一次第一個這跟立法理由的說明一點關係都沒有"},{"start":20055.359,"end":20071.28,"text":"這跟立法理由的說明一點關係都沒有會回到我今天早上問你們甚至是上一次會議問你們稅務行政事件審理法你們在炒你這個法典的時候在炒你這個法典的時候你們基本上面"},{"start":20072.927,"end":20098.689,"text":"是本來就用行政訴訟法嘛現在 此時此刻 right now我們在行政法院處理稅務行政事件就是用行政訴訟法嘛完全就是用行政訴訟法那一套現在不是法律真空啊現在稅務行政事件審理法就是用行政訴訟法那既然就是會用行政訴訟法你們另外就審理要搞一個特別法"},{"start":20099.417,"end":20107.66,"text":"那我要看到的就是到底特別在哪裡特別的理由是什麼嘛那否則你何必再抄一次現在就用行政訴訟法啦我有說錯嗎第二個回到12條我先講簡單的後項對於他照所提出的事實及證據因為陳述"},{"start":20123.778,"end":20141.904,"text":"當事人對他照所提出的40級證據因為陳述現在行政訴訟法不就是這樣規定嗎那你重寫一次有什麼意義我不懂啊你重寫一次有什麼意義這根本不是特別規定啊一模一樣的規定你再寫一次啊"},{"start":20143.1,"end":20170.791,"text":"那真的有意義的地方看起來好像要有意義的地方在在第一項的前段啊現行法的規定是當事人就其提出的事實證據因為真實及完全的陳述現在的行政訴訟法 right now用的就是這個條文啊你們要做特別規定把它特別變成什麼樣子變成當事人就與裁判有關的事實因為真實完全的陳述那如果按照你剛剛的說法你完全沒有要"},{"start":20172.148,"end":20180.914,"text":"有什麼特別區別對待的理由啊你只是在形成當初法條的文字的時候忽略了或者是忘記了現在真實完全申訴的義務就規範在行政訴訟法裡面準用民事訴訟法的條文啊"},{"start":20191.309,"end":20213.34,"text":"你這樣子在寫這個特別的審理法那不是置私欲焚嗎沒有必要特別規定的你也把它寫進來寫進來又跟現在的法條文字不一樣那你除了造成了未來解釋上面的混亂到底還有什麼積極的功能這個是我針對12條第一項的問題我到目前為止沒有聽到答案"},{"start":20216.296,"end":20231.932,"text":"機關代表請說明其實12條第一項就是把目前目前相關行政訴訟法有關的規定關於當成協力義務的規定把它規範進來然後用於做更"},{"start":20232.572,"end":20260.878,"text":"精進的一個用於因為我們的想法是說就像11條雖然它跟行政訴訟法125條規範一樣但是我們是認為說從整個體力或者是法條的完整性來講我們能夠把現行行政訴訟法已經附科與當事人的協力義務在這邊做一個統合性的規定並且把它就真實完全陳述是"},{"start":20261.878,"end":20276.604,"text":"就與裁判有關的事實那我想我們是做一個更進步性的一個立法就是就既有的規範之下然後為了體力的完整性然後在文字上也著作一些的匡正這樣子好請黃委員"},{"start":20283.562,"end":20306.581,"text":"我必須要老實講啦剛剛你說什麼更親近更進步親近在哪裡進步在哪裡可能我比較奴頓一點我從訴訟法學的角度來看我完全看不出來親近在哪裡進步在哪裡我完全聽不出來那當然我這樣子的評論公平或不公平還是一樣要接受公眾監督嘛"},{"start":20315.751,"end":20335.143,"text":"來第一個我反對第一項去調整憲刑法的規定除了造成未來解釋論上面的混淆之外我完全看不出到底有何精進或進步之處第二點第二點就是"},{"start":20338.294,"end":20353.019,"text":"因為第二項的部分跟行政訴訟法裡面令第三人提出文書的第三人文書提出義務兩者之間的差別在哪裡這個第二項跟第三項的部分一模一樣"},{"start":20354.25,"end":20378.564,"text":"因為這個有命第三人提出文書義務的問題嘛你抽象的來講就是要給第三人文書提出的義務嘛那可以第三人文書提出的義務你們目前12條第二項跟第三項跟目前行政訴訟法裡面命第三人提出文書的義務這是補充還是特別是補充規定還是特別規定"},{"start":20380.236,"end":20397.49,"text":"那用了這個是要排除行政訴訟法第三人文書提出義務的適用然後要給他做一個給他做一個特別的規定要取代第三人文書提出義務的一般性規定是這樣嗎"},{"start":20400.822,"end":20424.419,"text":"我們這一條規定尤其是第三項的規定是針對第三人提出資料的義務那其實是考慮到稅捐訴訟的特性因為很多是要有海外的資料它如果涉及在中華民國境內的盈利事業它是要科全球所得的資料"},{"start":20424.839,"end":20441.213,"text":"那有一些境外的資料其實是不易取得的尤其是所以在這裡才特別講說如果這一些資料是納稅議員所持有或者是受他委託保管的第三人"},{"start":20442.113,"end":20469.088,"text":"持有這些資料那我們是命他提希望他命他提出於境外境外而且是與科稅事實有關的必要資料因此是針對就境外的資料而且這裡也做一個要件的線說必須是與科稅事實有關的必要資料黃委員詢問那我也想追問來請黃委員請"},{"start":20471.946,"end":20492.732,"text":"對不起啊 你把法條的文字再念一次 還是沒有回答我的問題啊那看一下行政訴訟法好不好行政訴訟法除了當事人的文書提出義務 也有第三人的文書提出義務啊第三人的文書提出義務 他有限定文書所在地嗎他有提出義務 他就是有提出義務啊"},{"start":20493.502,"end":20520.021,"text":"我管你那個你的文書藏在什麼地方法院命你提出你就要提出啊你不提出了以後接下來法律效果就會繼續的延續下去啊所以我的問題還是一樣啊你們針對第12條第二項第三項的文書提出義務相對於目前行政訴訟法裡面的文書提出義務到底是一個什麼關係啊是特別規定"},{"start":20521.67,"end":20549.448,"text":"要排除行政訴訟法有關文書提出義務的一般性規定還是怎麼樣因為你剛所講的狀況我看起來似乎好像已經落在了本來行政訴訟法的文書提出義務的設成範圍之內還是我的理解有錯誤我們目前行政法院對於行政訴訟法第三人文書提出義務有限縮在那個文書限在本國境內嗎"},{"start":20552.062,"end":20567.023,"text":"我從法條上面看不出這樣的限制還是最高行政法院有什麼裁判力可以提供我們大家做參考好請機關代表先就黃委員的追問回應那待會本席也會想要請教一些問題請"},{"start":20568.912,"end":20598.392,"text":"是這一條是針對就第三人而且是境外的資料所以就如果是在這種情形之下他會優先於行政訴訟法相關規範的適用因為在這裡我們特別點出說第三可以命第三人提出境外與科稅事實有關的資料而且還有做一些附帶性的規定就是說如果這個資料提供已經提供給境外政府的話可以命他提出副本而且"},{"start":20599.533,"end":20613.363,"text":"命第三人又把它限縮也就是但書規範的情形就是以無法自納稅一文取得者為限所以做了一些有別於行政書送法關於命第三人提出文書的規定"},{"start":20617.539,"end":20640.329,"text":"本席這邊也要請教一下因為畢竟不是科班出身的剛剛就幾位在言辭當中所用的法條不太理解那麼因為剛剛在討論到第三人義務我們這邊看到的行政訴訟法當中你們條文所援引的是第164條可是剛剛提到的第三人義務的部分我看到這裡面從"},{"start":20642.391,"end":20659.442,"text":"行政訴訟法166一直到後面的好幾條到168、169、170、171都有類似這樣的規定那我這裡有兩個疑惑就是因為它這裡面有往前提出到"},{"start":20662.745,"end":20692.181,"text":"行政訴訟碼144條到147條那這些條文內容呢這邊講的很多是公務員那因為這裡有一個疑惑啦因為呢剛剛說到第三人之義務有的是規範非公務員的那有的你們引述的是164條是公務員的那能不能稍微回應一下到底這兩者的區別作為當事人協力之義務以外的第三人他如果有區分成是公務員跟非公務員那有什麼差別 沒有"},{"start":20692.801,"end":20715.568,"text":"這一點本席也很好奇報告主席因為您剛才講說我們立法理由有引到164條那引到164條我們這一段的說明只是要說明說如果是機關是當事人的時候他就所保管的這一些的文書資料"},{"start":20716.408,"end":20736.033,"text":"它本來就有提出的義務我們是在強調這裡就是說不光是納稅義務人而且根據164條第一項的前段規定就是公務員或者是機關掌管的文書行政法院是可以調取的"},{"start":20736.593,"end":20754.586,"text":"那也就是說我們在這裡所規範當事人要提出的資料其實就是他原來依照法律規定本來就應該提出給機關的或稅捐機關的資料如果他踐行的話其實我們按照164條的規定就不用他進這樣一個協力義務"},{"start":20758.109,"end":20787.549,"text":"我們可以直接去跟機關調取這些資料那今天就是因為他沒有遵照相關法律的規定先行提出這些資料給機關所以我們調不到那所以才會在這裡希望他能夠提出他依法原來應該要提供給稅捐機關或者是其他主管機關的資料我們這一點的說明是在闡述這一個的部分"},{"start":20788.609,"end":20801.077,"text":"那另外就是我們目前第三人提出文書的相關的規範就是規範在行政訴訟法166到168條"},{"start":20806.741,"end":20829.329,"text":"都有相關的規範那169條就是第三人如果不提出的話那是可以做罰款必要時得為強制處分這是既有的行政訴訟法的規定那麼關於那個你們立法說明說的行政訴訟法164條部分剛剛的回應大概我理解了那繼續追問"},{"start":20831.286,"end":20844.828,"text":"因為剛好之前在去年有一個實例原理上有點類似那麼對照雖然不是機關它是一個工協會是個工會但是這個工會它握有"},{"start":20846.155,"end":20861.651,"text":"他們當事人的這個相關的契約文書那當我們行政執行處依法院的立場去跟他調用的時候那麼讓對方似乎有不得不提出的義務好了我講白一點就是保單"},{"start":20863.51,"end":20879.191,"text":"在之前我們處理保單抵稅的時候有發生過債權人要去申請強制執行那要去申請執行的時候呢執行處就會要求理解那個債務人本身有參與哪些保險"},{"start":20881.68,"end":20908.589,"text":"債務人所擁有的保單他的資料呢通常都會在保險工會上有留存那保險工會留存的這個資料那麼是屬於當事人或者說契約保險人跟被保險人之間他們的一個邀保人之間的契約文書可是因為工會有但是當我們法院要求他們提供的時候應債權人要確保債權而提供的時候"},{"start":20909.269,"end":20933.984,"text":"那這個時候是不是就是你們這裡面條文所說的它不是機關喔它不是你們164條的這個機關喔它是一個民間的團體的工協會喔那這個時候呢它是不是有類似你們這裡面166條開始所說的你們要辦理執行強制執行那你們要求它執行處呢要求它提供那它是否有義務提供這個"},{"start":20936.198,"end":20956.45,"text":"是否為這樣的義務因為這個涉及到說我們在理解納稅義務人因為他或許有些資料沒有交給稅宣計政機關那他可能保存在其他的商業公司裡面那當你們命期要他提供的時候第三人的義務是不是類似像我所理解的保險公會接到法院這邊要求他們提供"},{"start":20957.21,"end":20981.91,"text":"那他們要提供那這個提供是完全義務的提供還是什麼樣的情況因為在該案當中呢公會在意的是他們是可供查詢但是查詢要付費那請問在這種情況之下你們命期他要提供他有義務提供但是他如果要收費呢那又如何去處理這個剛好在實際案例上呢之前有處理到所以也很好奇想進一步追問跟"},{"start":20988.578,"end":21014.253,"text":"我先提一個程序上的事項因為那個國發基金調查委員會我是召委我排的議程是兩點半要開始我是提議啦從早上討論到現在可以看得出來我們司法院的官員對於這部法律的準備嫌有不足我是建議另外擇期再審請他們回去好好準備好再來這個是我的建議因為"},{"start":21016.354,"end":21040.486,"text":"那個世化法治委員會 鍾嘉賓 趙偉寧也是委員之一所以我是建議我們今天這個法案是不是就先審到這個地方擇期再繼續 這個是我的建議謝謝委員的提議那因為有兩位委員我剛剛看到較遠的是沈委員 較近的是林委員那好吧 我剛剛的問題先放著先讓沈委員講完 再讓林委員講"},{"start":21043.186,"end":21064.135,"text":"我想我大致上大概同意黃委員剛剛所做的提議我們則期再審但是我主要是要提醒我們司法院的部分其實你看今天從一整天我們坐在這裡大家一直看大概其實我們今天整個討論的焦點大概就是說我們這一部稅審法"},{"start":21069.002,"end":21082.348,"text":"如果沒有遂審法的話就適用行政訴訟法這次黃委員一直在主要講這個所以他每一個條文他都希望你們提出說你們在這裡列這個他的特別"},{"start":21083.408,"end":21102.089,"text":"規定的意義在哪裡那事實上有一些是有但是你們寫的可能你們寫的方向像你剛剛所提的那個境外的那些問題你可能有這個意義但是在條文上面大家無法理解說你如果沒有這一條為什麼行政事務法不能夠適用他為什麼"},{"start":21103.09,"end":21114.198,"text":"如果沒有速審法這個規定的話為什麼不能直接援引行政速審法我想未來我們在續審的時候大概焦點後面這幾條焦點一直都每一條每一項焦點都會是這個你這一條"},{"start":21117.284,"end":21141.629,"text":"你定義在這個稅審法裡面定義這一條它的特別規定它的用意它要取代這個行政輸送法它的不足的哪一些部分我想這個是下一次我們續審的時候我覺得這個才是你們應該要回答委員會的最重要的問題那這個部分我提醒司法院希望說我們下次如果續審的時候你們在這個部分的資料"},{"start":21145.79,"end":21163.637,"text":"也許當初你們在做這個法案,畢竟新的法案也許當初沒有那麼嚴謹,有一些條件也許真的是可以不用,那你們在那些部分也不用堅持,我們大家覺得可以不用另行規定了,我們就不要另行規定,這部分我們是不是希望司法院回去檢討一下"},{"start":21165.979,"end":21188.039,"text":"謝謝 林委員也是類似嗎 請我想今天在討論的整個過程中也感受到其實司法院對於稅務行政 到底公民一般行政訴訟它的特別在哪裡好像不是很熟悉因為剛才從第二條的第一項整個詢答的過程中我們就發覺整個條文"},{"start":21190.161,"end":21211.354,"text":"到底為什麼要就裁判有關的事實因為真實完全的陳述班主席的詢問我想司法院都沒有辦法做很明確的回答其實如果說你看民事訴訟法裡面規定所謂當事人的陳述再延遲辯論他的陳述就訴訟關係它應該為事實及法律上的陳述"},{"start":21212.074,"end":21235.245,"text":"但是就他主張的事實他有真實的一個陳述的義務那在稅務行政你把它改成說當事人就與裁判有關的事實又改成說與裁判有關的事實但是你裁判有關的事實跟我們民事訴訟法裡面所謂的跟訴訟關係有關的事實有什麼不一樣其實就一樣啊"},{"start":21235.965,"end":21263.258,"text":"那在民事事務法的規定它是只有事實上及法律上的陳述的義務但是你在稅務行政你又改成說它是有真實陳述的義務你好像要准用那個就是引用行政事務法應該講的122條第二項的一個規定喔所以這聽起來就很混淆啦所以是不是說我們這部法案我們希望說就是請司法院再準備充分一點啦我們繼續再來討論啦"},{"start":21265.852,"end":21291.014,"text":"好 謝謝 幾位委員的意見其實主席在推進議程的過程當中也都是希望讓審查的過程列席機關能夠有充足的準備做完整的說明那不過呢 當我們在進行討論的時候呢還是會有插出一些火花引發一些有益的討論那這樣討論也有助於列席機關就提案機關回去再做充實跟補充那我想呢 因為其實呢 我們委員會"},{"start":21292.475,"end":21315.073,"text":"大家認真討論議案那委員各自有其他不同的重要任務這裡主席也都尊重所以我原則上會盡量尊重有重大不同意見的委員的意見我們不會在那個時候做這些處理的所以委員請放心也跟委員報告像一再聲明的在上次第一次審查的時候有委員表示這個11到16"},{"start":21317.434,"end":21340.279,"text":"25無 這個是非常堅持所以我們上次審查完全就沒有處理那今天因為有時間有在場我們就往前推進那剛剛對12條的部分也有委員提出一些重大的寶貴意見那事不上 剛剛幾個程序上的提醒也提醒完了可否呢 我們還是就12條有提出的部分讓列席官進入說明"},{"start":21340.859,"end":21359.902,"text":"那如果在場委員有其他的重大會議也沒問題我們會呢尊重委員之前在離開之前所表達的意見我們在處理的時候一定會考量到這個應該本席在主席的時候啊都有充分的說明了好不好那我們是不是就讓機關可以進行剛前面的詢問的回答那黃委員請"},{"start":21362.019,"end":21377.68,"text":"剛剛我就提議嘛今天這個法案就到這邊請他們回去做比較聰慧的準備再來啊 審發委員也都同意啦我這樣子主張 審發委員也同意林思敏委員也同意那只剩下主席一個人你要自己往前推進 這樣好嗎"},{"start":21380.467,"end":21398.033,"text":"請方委員注意剛剛我這邊是有一個意見要請他們回答他們還沒回答那因為委員有不同意見我讓大家先就程序上表示意見嘛那終究是已經提出了問題讓列席機關回答並不妥而且也不會因為有人離開我們委員會做不同的冒進不會"},{"start":21399.193,"end":21425.046,"text":"那也不是說現在全體都要離開到其他的委員去開會事實上主席在這裡待會也有其他的重要會議就陳如剛黃委員所說的但是呢已經提出來問題也讓行政機關在現有的時間繼續進行答覆再一次的跟委員保證我們今天呢在調色的處理上只要委員有表達我們應該還沒有形成共識一定不會處理的您放心好不好"},{"start":21425.566,"end":21430.469,"text":"那因為剛剛這邊追問的部分還沒回答剛剛我提出了保單結構部分 請回答那個保單的部分 那個保險公會的部分 社會保險公會的部分會員 我要請他們先說明 因為這是剛剛有問到的報告主席 我們的12條第三項所規範的這個第三人是受納稅義務人委託保管的第三人"},{"start":21456.01,"end":21474.752,"text":"所以他持有管領這一些的資料跟納稅藝人之間是有一個受託保管的法律關係在的至於委員剛才講保險工會持有的一些資料因為我不曉得保險工會持有這些依據的"},{"start":21475.613,"end":21500.65,"text":"是不是符合我們這一邊就是說必須是納稅義務人跟第三人之間有一個受託保管的這樣一個基礎的法律關係存在抱歉因為剛剛我講的不是說我們稅審法的稅務行政事件而是說你們這邊援引的行政訴訟法當中第三人的義務那在目前沒有稅審法之前那之前我們在金錢債務關係上那麼"},{"start":21503.252,"end":21519.281,"text":"作為債權人可否對於債務人他所進簽訂的保單的契約內容要求其他第三方提出相關的內容供我們法院進行執行主要是這一個因為這個是行政訴訟法現在就有的規定那剛剛"},{"start":21520.362,"end":21546.782,"text":"本席的詢問也很清楚如果他有義務 那這個義務的執行過程中如果有付費的需求那是否他盡他義務的同時相對照也應該付繳費的義務這個是很明確的說明的我想呢 今天因為副秘書長之前並可能沒有受理到 事實上台北地院啦我講的就是台北地院但是後來呢 台北地院的處理方式"},{"start":21548.472,"end":21576.69,"text":"並沒有這一部分做明確的處理所以是不是可以請副秘書長這邊您做個簡要的說明那我們再把事情的這邊議程這邊可以做一個告一段落 請主席所垂詢的那個部分不在那個稅審法這個條文裡面因為你們這裡原以行政訴訟法嘛那你們行政訴訟法有這個第三方的義務嘛我才說第三方義務當中如果涉及到付費的部分那你們怎麼處理"},{"start":21579.676,"end":21606.217,"text":"那個部分那個民事執行的這一個部分民事執行的這個部分這個部分我想我還是得回去問一下那個民事廳跟那個台北地院他們實際上的那個處理的方式啊是對所以說您的意思是說今天我們談到稅審法第12條談到了這個協力一五五當時的協力一五五又提到了第三人的"},{"start":21607.267,"end":21635.726,"text":"提供文件的義務那這邊的正點是在現在的行政訴訟法當中如果第三人有提供文件的義務在提供文件的同時如果他們本身有收費的規定那這個收費如何處理這個是很清楚的詢問是就現在的行政訴訟法那同樣的為什麼要就這點處理因為如果未來到稅審法第12條如果第三方提供文書有他的義務那他提供文書有他的成本"},{"start":21636.806,"end":21660.877,"text":"那這個成本這個要誰來執行這個部分是不是請陳警長你了解意思因為接下來有委員是希望說後面的續省我們提案機關能夠更完整的說明那這個部分能不能先做初步的因為委員也要趕快要去主持其他會議了有委員要主持我希望今天的議程能夠順利的告一段落"},{"start":21669.076,"end":21690.416,"text":"委員垂詢的是關於第三人提出文書所產生的費用那按依照行政訴訟法第170條的規定它是說第三人得請求 如果符合啦就是說第三人得請求提出文書之費用第155條的規定"},{"start":21692.998,"end":21715.596,"text":"於前項情形準用155條的規定就是有一些相關法院要發給這個日費旅費或者是證人詢問的一些的這個相關的費用那目前我們的在行政訴訟法的這個領域是規範在170條的"},{"start":21719.261,"end":21739.209,"text":"好 那所以呢 就這個部分 既然廳長也做事 那副秘長了解齁那這個部分呢 如果是你們是這樣處理 那後續如果在稅審法還沒徵定完成之前 行政訴訟有情況 委員希望司法院相關機關應該按照這個精神來處理 好不好同意嗎再回去研究好嗎好 副委員來你們齁 好 來 黃委員請"},{"start":21749.575,"end":21771.292,"text":"具體的講,請你們回去準備的時候,下面的事情請一定準備我剛剛講得很清楚,11、12、13、14、15、16我都有意見,我要求表,我要求保留你們再回去處理的時候,第18條的部分注意就有關於當事人訴訟促進的義務當事人訴訟促進的義務現在行政訴訟法是準用民事訴訟法的規定"},{"start":21776.236,"end":21795.995,"text":"那在準用的情況之下你們這邊還做特別規定的理由在什麼地方那第二個部分在性質方面上面法院因應職權調查的事項法院因應職權調查的事項為什麼在這裡還有事實提出主意的適用你甚至在違反事實提出主意的時候會產生失權效的效果"},{"start":21797.096,"end":21812.129,"text":"這個部分請你們一併回去做準備最後我還要再跟你們提醒一件事情就是你們在整個法典裡面有的時候用程序標的有的時候用訴訟標的"},{"start":21813.61,"end":21839.904,"text":"那是有區別的理由如果區別的話區別理由到底在什麼地方在有一些脈絡的時候用程序標的在其他的脈絡的時候是用訴訟標的區別的理由到底在哪裡我老實說我看了不是非常的懂最後善意的提醒司法院善意的提醒司法院你們如果要我們支持你們過這個特別法那請你們回去重新思考"},{"start":21841.267,"end":21869.512,"text":"這個特別法到底給目前的稅務行政訴訟在實務上面產生的問題對於人民所造成的困擾到底解決了什麼事情我到目前為止看到的沒有解決什麼事情感覺好像是為利而利甚至在一些特別規定上面是對人民造成更大的不利益"},{"start":21870.68,"end":21887.666,"text":"在這樣的情況之下,我是沒有辦法支持你們這部法律繼續推進好,以上好,請問在場委員,有沒有還有其他意見另外沒有,沒有好,那跟委員說明,因為剛剛"},{"start":21890.061,"end":21909.828,"text":"稅審法審理到今已經是第二次進行逐條討論了那麼委員如果對於條文的內容之前暫保留的部分那希望提案機關能夠更為周延的就委員所提出的部分做好準備好 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經濟部"},{"start":2286.806,"end":2294.331,"text":"原列1299億7440萬1千元除第12目非營業特種基金42億3467萬3467萬8千元佔照列是所屬非營業特種基金審議確定再行調整檢列第一目科技專案100萬元科目自行調整其餘均照列改列為1299億7340萬1千元本項通過決議65項第二項產發所原列"},{"start":2318.287,"end":2328.634,"text":"135億3907萬1千元除第四部非營業特種基金6億7800萬元佔照列次所屬非營業特種基金審議確定再行調整和取均照列本項通過決議24項第三項國際貿易署"},{"start":2331.735,"end":2346.238,"text":"二十七億四千八百二十五萬六千元照例本項通過決議八項第四項標準檢驗局及所屬二十六億三千一百七十七萬兩千元照例本項通過決議十一項第五項智慧財產局十七億兩千二百四十二萬六千元照例"},{"start":2347.279,"end":2355.483,"text":"本項通過決議7項第6項水利署及所屬406億6904萬元照列本項通過決議35項第7項商發署員26億9871萬8千元除第5幕非營業特種基金10億元暫照列是所屬非營業特種基金審議確定再行調整範區域均照列本項通過決議"},{"start":2368.65,"end":2392.433,"text":"十四項 第八項中小及新創企業署十三億七千兩百八十四萬五千元照列本項通過決議二十三項 第九項產業園區管理區級所屬八億五千三百零五萬八千元照列本項通過決議九項 第十項地質調查及礦業管理中心十億兩千九百四十三萬三千元照列本項通過決議十一項 第十一項能源署原列一百二十一億"},{"start":2394.863,"end":2419.242,"text":"7209万9千元处地私募费应业特种基金116亿2千万元暂照列设所属费应业特种基金审议确定再行调整外区域均照列本项通货决议14项3.114年度经济部及所属单位预算部分均审查完据114年度中央政府总预算本会负责审查之公布预算均于审查完据真识别税出预算随同"},{"start":2419.943,"end":2440.902,"text":"以上机关别审查结果调整你去审查报告提报财政委员会会诊本会审查结果虚交的党团学商院会讨论时有屡召集委员玉玲出席说明散会宣读完毕好在场委员不到三人我们议事录站不处理继续进行讨论事项请宣读"},{"start":2442.506,"end":2468.413,"text":"1 審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於經濟部主管經濟作業基金水資源作業基金經濟特別收入基金和農發電後端營運基金2 審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管台灣糖業股份有限公司台灣中油股份有限公司二案今日詢答宣讀完畢"},{"start":2472.093,"end":2495.026,"text":"本日議程為巡達114年度中央政府總預算案關於經濟部主管的非營業部分有經濟作業基金水資源作業基金經濟特別收入基金核能發電後端的營運基金以及營業部分台糖"},{"start":2498.175,"end":2525.274,"text":"台湾糖业股份有限公司台湾中油股份有限公司那我们先介绍在场我们邱毅英委员再来介绍各位行政首长经济部的郭志辉部长国际贸易署江文若署长能源署的邮政委署长中小级新创企业署李冠志署长"},{"start":2526.755,"end":2554.048,"text":"水利署賴建信署長產業園區管理局楊伯根局長台灣電力股份有限公司徐永輝副總經理還有鄭慶紅副總經理台灣糖業股份有限公司吳明昌董事長陳立仁總經理"},{"start":2558.083,"end":2576.689,"text":"台灣終於股份有限公司方振仁董事長張明總經理行政院主計總處基金預算處王佩珊科長好那現在先請我們經濟部的郭部長報告"},{"start":2589.318,"end":2607.355,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家早大院今天審查本部主管非營業特種基金台塘公司以及中油公司114年度預算案本人就該試基金以及兩公司預算編列重點簡要報告如下114年度營業業務計畫"},{"start":2613.002,"end":2624.834,"text":"經濟作業基金下設科技產業園區作業基金以及產業園區開發管理基金等兩個分基金業務計畫如下依辦理科技產業園區設施維護與清潔環保檢測從業人員娛樂活動服務以及集水設施等管理維護辦理產業園區各"},{"start":2638.246,"end":2652.96,"text":"各項公共設施之維護管理有效防止水污染以及提供廠商相關服務輔導施宜預算案編列情形114年度預算剩餘較113年度增加3億8699萬4千元主要系產業園區開發管理基金園區公共設施維護費以及太陽光電業者之電價"},{"start":2662.83,"end":2669.896,"text":"競標回饋金等收入增加所致114年度固定資產投資計畫18億757萬6千元主要系科技產業園區作業基金辦理高雄團體園區第二園區第一棟大樓興建計畫等"},{"start":2679.983,"end":2696.324,"text":"水資源作業基金114年度營業計畫 水庫經營管理及河川輸進管理一 集水 辦理水資源調配及水庫重要設施之維護管理等工作二 輸進與清淤 加強小管水庫及中央"},{"start":2697.489,"end":2718.656,"text":"管河川清淤疏菌 辦理中央管河川海堤及排水設施管理與災害之搶修搶險等工作二 溫泉政策規劃及技術研究發展一 溫泉法收取溫泉收取費 辦理溫泉管理政策規劃及技術研發等工作"},{"start":2720.318,"end":2727.463,"text":"2.預算案編列情形,114年度預算短促較113年度減少5,028萬元主要是配合電價調漲、依售電契約調整售價單價增編售電收入、擴大河川輸進提高水庫清淤有價料量"},{"start":2743.43,"end":2769.309,"text":"增編土石銷貨收入所致114年度固定資產投資計畫32億8949萬5千元主要是辦理中央管河川集要段輸進工程用地徵收台南海水淡化廠工程計畫第一期及新竹海水淡化廠工程計畫等第三項經濟特別收入基金114年度的業務計畫包括"},{"start":2773.61,"end":2798.045,"text":"經濟特別收入基金下設推廣貿易基金能源研究發展基金石油基金再生能源發展基金及中小企業發展基金等五個分基金計劃如下一貿易推廣工作計畫辦理拓展貿易因應貿易情勢支援各項貿易活動等業務二能源研究發展工作計畫辦理節能技術研究發展與服務推廣及電業管理業務三"},{"start":2800.666,"end":2822.437,"text":"政府儲油石油開發及技術研究計畫辦理政府安全儲油能源新利用技術開發及石油業管理等業務市再生能源推廣計畫辦理市販補助推廣利用等業務五中小企業發展計畫辦理"},{"start":2824.994,"end":2852.083,"text":"扶持新創育成強化資金融通促進數位轉型升級及優化服務網絡等各項資源輔導與補助計畫二預算案編列情形114年度預算剩餘較113年度預算減少7億1708萬1千元主要系中小企業發展基金新增中小企業數位轉型經費所致"},{"start":2854.534,"end":2878.991,"text":"第四項核能發電後端營運基金114年度的營運計劃一低放射性廢棄物處理及儲存計劃辦理低放射性廢棄物儲存廠營運計劃並依法規規定辦理外運至最終處置廠之準備工作二低放射性"},{"start":2880.337,"end":2904.046,"text":"廢棄物最終處置計畫辦理選址調查相關工作促進低放射性廢棄物最終處置設施場址之選定三 用過核子燃料儲存計畫辦理用過核子燃料乾式儲存設施興建計畫四 用過核子燃料最終處置計畫持續精進處置設計與工程技術"},{"start":2909.12,"end":2934.657,"text":"針對未來處置廠設施之可能形式處置配置與組成等技術資料進行研究核子設施除液採廠及廢棄物處理及最終處置計劃持續進行核能電廠除液除廢棄物再利用研究及除液放射性廢棄物數量評估"},{"start":2936.963,"end":2960.843,"text":"作業研究與規劃二 預算案編列情形114年度預算剩餘較113年度增加140億6,879萬3千元主要系台電公司補足107及108年度為足額提撥之核能後端營運總費用增加核能發電後端營運提供收入所致"},{"start":2964.773,"end":2987.052,"text":"台南公司经营业务包括砂糖、毛珠子生产、修器服务及土地开发与管理等项目,自91年度起,每年皆有盈余缴户,近年致力于国内砂糖与毛珠等民生必需品的稳定供给,配合国家能源转型政策设置太阳光电开发绿色能源,"},{"start":2987.893,"end":3011.073,"text":"提供产业发展等所需用地持续提升核心事业竞争力114年度预算重点说明如下一重要业务措施一稳定民生物价配合农业部调节毛租至拍卖市场数量动涨砂糖及沙拉油等销售价格"},{"start":3012.493,"end":3035.591,"text":"與自有通路設置平價商品專區以減輕國人的負擔二 擴大綠電供應持續盤點各潛在廠址建置太陽光電設施並規劃保留部分廠址之三層綠電在再生能源憑證中心及綠電交易平台競標公中小企業有綠電購買"},{"start":3037.395,"end":3050.796,"text":"三提供產業及公共政策用地配合產業發展需要提供產業園區及科學園區等土地配合內政部提供興建社會住宅土地配合"},{"start":3052.973,"end":3074.582,"text":"衛生福利部興建住宿市長照機構提供土地提供各縣市政府設置有機農業生產專區土地以優惠租金租給有機耕作農民促進我國農業升級二營業收支盈餘114年度預算淨利較113年度增加6億9577萬元主要是投資投資性不動產"},{"start":3083.376,"end":3112.155,"text":"净利盈益营建毛利及利息净收入等增加所致三 投资计划及资金来源114年度编列构建固定资产建设改良扩充计划预算26亿3156万元资金来源均以自有资金支应第六项 中油公司中油公司因净零趋势及能源转型"},{"start":3112.97,"end":3136.352,"text":"除在本業持續加強公安管理穩定供應國內油氣亦積極拓展及參與再生能源業務開發碳捕捉利用及封存技術中合公司114年度預算重點說明如下一重要業務措施油氣供應穩定近期國際油價價格在70到80美元區間震盪"},{"start":3138.514,"end":3166.159,"text":"中央公司油品采购以油盐供应多元化原则目前原油进口以长期合约为主现货为辅以增加操作的弹性二 液化天然气采购策略是透过中长约布局为主短约以现货为辅以及机动的传奇调度稳定供应国内天然气市场的需求二 净零转型以优油减碳"},{"start":3167.174,"end":3191.468,"text":"節能為主軸進行公司轉型規劃優油方面以減少燃油增產石化品及開發石化高質材料及電子關鍵材料為目標二 減碳方面建制能源管理系統減少生產工廠碳排放推動製成節能減碳供應碳中和及生殖產品"},{"start":3192.679,"end":3196.362,"text":"3.工安管理,藉由工程及管理的控制,从源头消除作业危害及风险。"},{"start":3218.686,"end":3223.993,"text":"降低人員操作風險及提升職安管理中效達到預防職災的目的"},{"start":3226.821,"end":3255.396,"text":"環境保護將持續要求中油公司落實污染源頭減量提升整體的環境品質第五 地熱碳封存計畫地熱積極推動地熱碳勘及開發114年主要系完成宜蘭土廠5.4MW地熱電廠的建置並在宜蘭平原完成專碳一口4000公尺深層地熱二碳封存"},{"start":3256.73,"end":3265.847,"text":"鐵栽山碳補存跨部會試驗計畫將於114年完成灌注設備建置工程開始灌注二氧化碳"},{"start":3266.96,"end":3273.406,"text":"第二大項營業收入及盈虧114年度預算經歷較113年增加32億8981萬主要是預估114年國際原油及天然氣價格回跌進口成本將因此減少所致三投資計畫及"},{"start":3288.679,"end":3297.522,"text":"資金來源110年度編列構建固定資產投資計畫預算595億6278萬元資金來源除453億7480萬元以借款籌注外其餘141億8798萬元以自有資金支應本部主管非營業特種基金台堂公司"},{"start":3317.099,"end":3345.971,"text":"及中油公司114年度遇上案均系配合政府施政主轴妥善配置资源有助于达成活络产业发展动能协助产业低碳及数位双轴转型拓展贸易市场推动能源转型政策及稳定水资源等目标敬请各位委员支持与指教谢谢"},{"start":3352.162,"end":3365.211,"text":"好 我們現在有三位委員我們請問在場的同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤好 沒有錯誤 我們議事錄確定現在請台塘公司的吳明昌董事長報告主席 各位委員 各位縣長"},{"start":3380.896,"end":3406.832,"text":"大家好 大宴今天審查台廠公司114年度的營業預算民昌有機會就公司113年度的經營概況向委員 貴委員會提出報告自感榮幸那我們台廠公司所營的四類金屬完全競爭的市場在兼顧配合政府的政策"},{"start":3407.842,"end":3427.159,"text":"穩定國內民生物質的任務之下事業之經營倍受挑戰但是為了因應經營環境的變化台廠公司持續精進各事業發展目標與策略落實績效與品質管理以提升整體的競爭力跟事業的"},{"start":3428.445,"end":3446.006,"text":"因應績效那近幾年來太陽公司竟能持續獲利在113年度榮獲中華信憑機構肯定調升太陽公司信用平等為TWAA穩定TWA-1 Plus"},{"start":3448.709,"end":3463.286,"text":"也就是說從民國96年評定為TWA-穩定TWA-1 Plus以來第一次所次調升那我們很緊要的跟"},{"start":3463.786,"end":3478.989,"text":"大家報告台南公司113年度進行概觀說明大概有七大項第一個是剛才如我們的部長所提配合政府政策穩定物價我們維持重要民生物質的3公升沙油"},{"start":3479.87,"end":3508.416,"text":"瓶裝每瓶169元是從民國99年12月31日大家都調整我們台糖為了穩定物價都沒有調整以及從105年7月以來1公斤裝的那個小巴東砂糖美包那個36塊那當然我們來配合那個農業部穩定國內租價政策調節供應市場毛租數量以穩定弱品價格那"},{"start":3509.98,"end":3527.086,"text":"在市場的物價動力方面我們有密林的便利超商設置平價專區第二項是配合政府重大建設提供土地剛才我們部長也跟各位報告過了那就是說"},{"start":3527.779,"end":3549.173,"text":"那個以出資後合作開發的方式提供政府各項重大的建設所需用地那這集來配合台商回流配合產業的發展我們以提供24處的便機大概2158公頃的土地來設置延期或科學延期來推動產業"},{"start":3551.91,"end":3564.262,"text":"升級跟發展另外一個在配合政策提供攝護的土地我們包括衛福部啦內政部等等之類的還有我們的那個協議提供了"},{"start":3565.655,"end":3587.677,"text":"相當多的社會住宅 太陽公司大概目前提供24392戶第三大項是建置太陽光電協助利潤的發展我們以閒置的土地活化及複合式的利用方式在113年完成"},{"start":3589.023,"end":3615.133,"text":"設置容量543.64MW到115人可以達到862、863左右那我們的汽車廠當然我們有那個早期的發電大概全部完成以後也可以提供1.66MW那在研究發展方面我們跟著多元的利用把那個CP值把它提升那製造一些產品那另外一個"},{"start":3615.649,"end":3641.799,"text":"我們台南研究單位也成功開發了複合木製檀莓、羽毛、水解維生物技術跟植栓莓那也獲得那個農業部頒獎第九屆的科技農企業的菁英獎那第三個就是福德蘭培育的香釀園福德蘭台南建物者從引以先開始到現在讓台灣的福德蘭邁向全世界"},{"start":3643.035,"end":3672.044,"text":"那個太陽這樣一個很重要的任務跟績效第五個就是那個推動淨零的排放那個消防廠現在每年可以減少2萬公噸的二氧化碳排碳那大林生技廠每年也可以減少200公噸的二氧化碳的排放那另外一個在積極推動國家淨零轉型12項關鍵戰略之中自然碳會比方說森林碳會那在"},{"start":3673.086,"end":3700.878,"text":"以及土壤碳化化面我們都提供相當好的那個績效那另外一個在112年度跟國家原子能科技研究院合作在散化攤行進行生質能碳捕捉利用先期試驗合作計畫導入易檢那來捕捉二氧化碳產生碳酸氫鈉"},{"start":3701.858,"end":3722.232,"text":"那這個炭酸清炭可以用在食品、飼料、醫藥跟清潔劑方面那也就是說那個試驗的效果相當好也就是說我們種甘蔗到燒那個蔗渣的炭中和洗碗過程中兼顧的炭護排的利基那當然我們也設立了"},{"start":3722.895,"end":3744.554,"text":"台塘碳會教育館在高雄橋頭橋樓場那第六重點就是在文化資產的活化方面我們在它的設定古蹟沿水港四塘住室會社總社的辦公室修復工程案 容後文化部的文心獎金"},{"start":3746.796,"end":3770.555,"text":"講的榮書那當然我們也設立了那個台糖文理護照那今年11月橋頭糖廠跟日方舉辦了檸檬藤三郎的特展也在12份在那個蒜頭糖廠舉辦首次的嘉義糖果節那其他有關包括推動重要事蹟獲獎等之類的"},{"start":3773.038,"end":3787.226,"text":"剛才我們部長也提到除了農民種植有機作物以及各縣市設置有機農業專區的土地大概有1358公頃那也配合我們的政府"},{"start":3787.833,"end":3810.668,"text":"政策 蹲入邦交以前我們進口宏都拉斯的咖啡那因為宏都拉斯跟我們沒有邦交所以在進口瓜地馬拉 安提瓜非常有名的那個咖啡齁那我們台南也見了小誰回歸他們那另外一個台南長崎跟您敬您的永續齁我們在"},{"start":3812.847,"end":3840.023,"text":"包括尖山皮生態方面還有那個水路光電集循環住宅方面 像湯廠鍋爐改造天然氣方面以及非常有名的那個蒙群自屬的那個護蔗田 也就是用蒙群來看到在那個蔗田裡面然後看到老鼠或蛇牠會去追牠 眼睛非常的利效果非常好 這個獲得"},{"start":3843.06,"end":3844.108,"text":"講像齁就那個"},{"start":3845.711,"end":3872.493,"text":"TSAA台灣永續行動獎另外一個我們引以為傲的就是我們東海翁農業循環園區獲得全球也是我們台灣所在的英國標準協會的VSI的循環經濟國際標準查核聲明書那這個是非常不簡單那我們有的產品去參加比賽我獲得很多的獎項那當然我們在"},{"start":3873.693,"end":3892.92,"text":"休閒的部分也得到台灣公安金獎以上就是台南公司經營概況清醒提出報告至於公司113年度預算執行清醒跟114年度營業預算編列內容我們請我們公司總經理跟各位報告謝謝大家謝謝感謝"},{"start":3902.335,"end":3914.13,"text":"我們請業務單位 盡量精簡報告那我們台南公司的那個總經理的報告我們就參閱好不好那我們現在請中油公司的方正仁董事長報告"},{"start":3928.963,"end":3949.006,"text":"主席各位委員大家早那麼大院今天審查台灣中油114年度的預算那麼僅就當前經營環境經營策略以及114年經營的重點向各位委員提出簡要的報告首先在當前的經營環境國際能源市場的情勢方面"},{"start":3950.231,"end":3969.648,"text":"各國機構分別就OPEC Plus結束自願性減產措施以及原油需求在不同的情境提出了各種不同的預測在114年國際地緣政治的局勢是越行複雜加上川普總統上台以後在MAGA的新政"},{"start":3970.709,"end":3983.457,"text":"那麼為國際的能源市場發展帶來了很大的一個變數那麼我們縱觀歐美國家已經開始降息那麼紓解市場的資金的壓力帶動能源的需求所以在114年的國際油氣價格是續強"},{"start":3987.62,"end":4000.285,"text":"那么OPEC Plus的生产决策,中东的地缘政治,美国的油气产出,欧美的利率政策,那么这些都是影响国企油气价格的一个观察重点。"},{"start":4001.294,"end":4024.865,"text":"那麼在國內油品市場方面目前國內只有台塑石化跟台灣中油兩家油品的供應商那麼其中中油公司在汽柴油的市佔率是維持在八成左右那麼今年的台塑石化公司它轉向了國內的油品市場採行了一些的措施它要持續地搶佔國內汽柴油的一個市佔率"},{"start":4026.138,"end":4046.206,"text":"那麼中油公司也肩負了充分供應國內各項油品、天然氣及石化原料的任務並且配合政府穩定國內物價的政策我們一直在秉持品質第一、服務至上貢獻最大的一個經營理念那麼我們會致力於提供優良油氣產品提升服務品質"},{"start":4047.581,"end":4067.121,"text":"接下来说明在公司的经营策略方面面对快速变迁的经营环境中原公司近年来已经陆续展开各项因应作为以致力成为多元创新永续的国际能源公司为公司的愿景并且定出了六大发展策略"},{"start":4068.14,"end":4092.207,"text":"那麼接下來說明在114年度公司的經營重點首先第一個當然是在強化我們的公安跟環保那麼公安方面中央公司一向以公安百分百公安零災害為目標來降低重大職災的發生那麼全公司35個單位都已經取得了ISO4501以及台灣職業安全衛生管理系統的外部驗證"},{"start":4093.607,"end":4115.19,"text":"那么将会持续推动并落实各项安全卫生管理来降低职业灾害的一个建树保障工作人员的安全在环保的方面也因应环保法规科技的发展趋势来检讨现阶段各厂的情形提出积极改善的计划来落实执行提升各厂的一个环境的品质"},{"start":4116.091,"end":4130.538,"text":"同时为了善尽企业社会责任以及因应气候变迁我们也持续推动温室气体的盘查节能减碳工作气候变迁调试等作业同时也扩大了能资源整合跟回收再利用"},{"start":4131.943,"end":4145.255,"text":"那么面对2050近邻碳排的跨世代跨领域的转型工程呢那么周围公司也已经规划了长中短期的目标逐步的投入并且分阶段来实施来实现了近邻的永续"},{"start":4146.141,"end":4173.575,"text":"那接下来说明在推动重大的投资计划呢那配合政府未来的发展以及能源转型的需要呢中原公司在今年度呢一共执行了三大类一共15项的投资计划那么在天然气稳定供应方面呢包含了接收站以及管线等等的一些项目呢总计有8项另外在炼化转型的方面呢则有5项还有另外在强化韧性方面呢也有2项"},{"start":4174.375,"end":4200.102,"text":"那麼接下來在加強經濟服務提升市場競爭力部分本公司持續強化加油站的經濟服務配合政府政策來推廣加油站的行動支付來提升自助加油設備的功能並且進行汰換那麼在同時也推動加油站的一個改建來營造捷徑以及友善的加油環境提升公司在市場的一個競爭力"},{"start":4202.338,"end":4228.512,"text":"接下來說明在發展石化高質化的部分那麼也就是因應全球的淨零趨勢公司以研發帶動公司的轉型一方面掌握低碳的趨勢穩健推動減碳優化油氣價值鏈那麼一方面依照技術的一個進展來規劃發展氫能再生能源以及負碳排技術應用新科技朝向多元能源的智慧化的一個企業的邁進"},{"start":4230.049,"end":4245.096,"text":"那么台湾中油是填补国内石化原基本原料一个缺口来去化未来的一个多余的油品同时也建立国内自给自足的原料供应链推动的链化转型产业升级投资计划"},{"start":4246.038,"end":4252.607,"text":"那麼會將石化的產能提升到每年172萬噸同時在這樣一個投資計畫也鼓勵國內石化廠商能夠多投資5G、綠能、醫材以及半導體產業所需要的高石化產品"},{"start":4262.114,"end":4279.98,"text":"現在在拓展國際市場方面也是同樣中央公司會推動國外探索合作以及擴大經營中的礦區的合作機會爭取讓入優良礦區以及油氣資產來充分掌握自主油源穩定國內的一個能源需求"},{"start":4281.277,"end":4295.073,"text":"在应用新兴科技部分也顺应科技潮流启动了能源产业的一个创新变革那么中原公司会逐步导入人工智慧大数据虚拟实境5G IoT等新兴科技"},{"start":4296.235,"end":4319.662,"text":"期望在兼顾环境保护跟作业安全的情况下降低生产成本提高公司收益在布局再生能源的部分中央公司也积极地寻觅地面型的太阳光电的一个案场来增加绿电同时也在地热资源的部分也投入分三个部分来进行首先在土厂地热部分"},{"start":4322.143,"end":4343.133,"text":"目前正在建置低熱發電廠它的量是5.4MW第二個部分是中原公司跟中原營合作在宜蘭園山來專找園山一號井這是一個深層井來深入了解我們深層低熱的資源分布跟特性這有助於對未來在宜蘭平原地區的一個低熱能的開發跟應用"},{"start":4345.194,"end":4354.985,"text":"那么同样我们会盘点国内其他区域的地热发电的一个潜能区域来优选合适的场子来进行扩大的地热能的开发"},{"start":4356.226,"end":4383.645,"text":"另外在无碳燃料的供应部分中央公司也会持续推动可移动式家庭站的一个示范计划并且跟国内的合作伙伴来共同参与各项氢能的应用研发收集国际氢能产业的发展动态并且配合政府的相关的政策来规划供应各产业的氢能的需求那么仅就以上的报告敬请各位委员不吝指教"},{"start":4389.844,"end":4408.58,"text":"本日议程所列的讨论事项合并询答委员咨询前本席原例照宣告每位委员在发言的时间本会委员5加1分钟非本会委员4分钟上午10点30分截止发言登记现在请邱毅英委员咨询"},{"start":4421.169,"end":4448.096,"text":"謝謝主席 我先請這個台堂董事長好了好 來 董事長這個您新上任嘛 對不對您就任到現在多久了"},{"start":4450.482,"end":4479.145,"text":"麥克風要按一下11月29號11月29號上任我感覺您應該有點緊張對不對第一次到立法院來我剛剛看您在念這個報告有一點緊張那這一個多月兩個月的時間我想請教一下您對台糖的整個業務範圍熟悉的程度到哪裡可不可以請您簡要說明一下"},{"start":4480.486,"end":4497.236,"text":"謝謝委員的那個指教因為在這個當然除了一般的公務以外到各地方去了解那個一些活動當然那個因為台糖的那個"},{"start":4498.51,"end":4515.822,"text":"涉不衰很多那而且從台北啊台北有那個商銷部那裡有那個養豬的地方到屏東還有台東跟那個花蓮都有那我就說"},{"start":4516.903,"end":4541.642,"text":"配合各個那個期數或是各個部門有需要我都會去安排他們好來董事長謝謝這個你可能要稍微要訓練一下因為我只有6分鐘的時間來我直接請教啦你剛剛講說你從台北一路到南部去你知道你們台塘的土地有多少嗎"},{"start":4542.695,"end":4563.302,"text":"現在台塘的土地有5萬公頃4萬8千公頃那就是5萬公頃那你知道你們台塘在你們停閉的廠區就是以前做糖廠官廠的地方停閉的廠區的活化到目前為止你們只活化了385公頃還有120公頃還沒有活化"},{"start":4566.883,"end":4594.692,"text":"那我提到這個東西呢其實要跟您談的就是說因為你們沒有活化這個土地停工但是你的土地稅每年還是要繳所以你每年要繳2億多的土地稅佔你的停工損失的89.56%我想請教第一個台塘對於你們的土地活化這一題其實大家都會問因為台塘算是全台灣最大的地主你們的土地活化未來要怎麼做"},{"start":4596.092,"end":4609.759,"text":"有沒有一些比較精進的做法換了一個新的董事長來對於土地活化這件事情的了解度跟參與度跟規劃是什麼這個我想知道第二個對於"},{"start":4610.819,"end":4630.804,"text":"你們的循環養豬場的改建計畫我剛剛看到您的報告裡頭也有提到部長的報告裡頭也有提到循環養豬場的改建計畫延宕這個在之前的董事長在的時候我已經都問過了可是看起來這個改善的程度並不高你們現在第二期的養豬場的總工程進度有2.5%到23.55%都有"},{"start":4637.746,"end":4655.974,"text":"請教一下你這些延宕的工程進度何時可以追上你們說到明年6月要完工你確定可以完工嗎這兩個問題請教好謝謝委員的那個指教當然那個那個"},{"start":4657.75,"end":4684.707,"text":"長期的活化 比方說在維園的梁家的屏東我們在沙蛇溪的你不要跟我講那裡啦 你趕快跟我講我幫你問的這個部分 或是你沒了解沒關係你是不是那個書面報告給我好不好我剛剛提的這兩個問題是不是你們請台堂書面報告給我因為我還有下一題要問好 來台堂請回 我請忠祐董事長或者是總經理都可以 請方董事長"},{"start":4688.84,"end":4690.872,"text":"因為今天時間有點短所以"},{"start":4691.974,"end":4719.863,"text":"我其實要掌握一下時間來那個剛剛台堂的董事長是新任嘛中澳董事長雖然也是新任但是我知道您是老中游人您跟張總都是老中游人董事長跟總經理你們剛剛講到了這個再生能源的應用的部分其實有很多題我們過去都一直問過但是我其實想要更清楚知道是進度比如說可疑似的嘉青站"},{"start":4720.703,"end":4747.305,"text":"每一次你們的業務報告都會講到這個都會講中油積極在推動可疑式的加輕站從之前你們那個李董事長的時代我也問過他兩次一直到現在到底可疑式加輕站什麼時候可以做好可以做好幾座那個推動的進度是什麼到目前為止我沒有看到那這個部分我是不是也能夠請中油也給我一個詳細的書面說明好不好"},{"start":4747.865,"end":4769.215,"text":"另外我有一題我想這個可能還是要請中友去研究我還有一分鐘這個我們其實從劉仕芳委員到現在我們已經協商過非常多次在中友的後進宿舍後進宿舍區居民的用電的計價方式是用工業用電董事長您知道這件事嗎"},{"start":4769.955,"end":4793.903,"text":"我知道你知道這件事好那這件事情要怎麼處理我們協商了這麼多次中油總是講說這個改電表啦改這些設備的費用啦包括台電估價的整個建制費用啦要花三億所以中油就反正就這樣子大家一天拖過一天也不易去解決可是現在的工業電價一直不斷的在漲價這幾年工業電價已經漲了五六次"},{"start":4798.484,"end":4815.056,"text":"你讓宿舍區的民宅使用工業用電對居民來說情何以堪他再怎麼樣的節電其實他也追不上這個電價漲價的方式我請教一下董事長有沒有什麼更好的處理方式跟委員報告"},{"start":4818.905,"end":4834.979,"text":"如果說把工業用電改成一般住宅用或用電,那麼這中電差額大概差八百萬。對中原公司來講,我們要支付這個八百萬,就變成要有一些依據。"},{"start":4836.394,"end":4857.451,"text":"同時對於用戶來講他支付電價其實也是使用者付費不過我們也了解這個歷史的過程發展的情況是怎麼樣的所以目前是在跟住戶你為什麼要去支付800萬他用電用多少電你們就付多少電就是說改用民生用電來就跟他收取的話那綜合公司相對要多支付800餘萬"},{"start":4859.397,"end":4879.528,"text":"那目前就是住戶還有我們公司以及台電還有市政府還有地方的民意代表目前在協商目前就大概三個問題一個就是屋內的設施以及屋外的線路的架設還有公用電費的部分這三個區塊如何做一個協調那後續會進行這方面的一個協調"},{"start":4881.749,"end":4883.53,"text":"董事長這個 當然您講我們其實在地的委員們大家都已經協調過非常多次那每一次協調完"},{"start":4891.428,"end":4915.968,"text":"隔不了多久工業電價又漲價了所以對於居民來講協調完之後那個工業電價一直在漲價所以您剛剛講的那個800多萬的差額啊你現在如果不趕快去處理的話未來你的那個差額會越來越大因為你是用工業電價去計算你不是用民生電價去計算你用工業電價去計算的話你的差額會越來越大你中油現在不趕快處理的話"},{"start":4917.33,"end":4937.592,"text":"將來你要負擔的差額越多然後你就告訴Jimmy說那這800多萬的差額我中油沒辦法負擔我覺得這個不是不是理由啦要怎麼樣去解決宿舍區的用電電費計算的問題我期待或者是我要求中油是不是能夠更積極主動一點好不好跟那個上次我們國營會"},{"start":4939.373,"end":4959.068,"text":"國營會也一起下去談嘛 跟高雄市政府還有台電到底這個建置費用包括電感要不要下地整個那個太陽能儲能設備的設置等等再生能源的設置等等我覺得這個都一併要去談我希望可以在短期之內把本席跟這個李博弈委員大家一起來共同研商這個問題好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":4970.175,"end":4996.608,"text":"請陳庭輝委員質詢謝謝主席我們請台南董事長請吳董事長董事長我想我現在很瞭解國福那契是甚麼"},{"start":4999.675,"end":5016.834,"text":"它的軌道是一般國際的二分之一用五分的車軌道五分的車蓋在我們台中有什麼不一樣的感情蓋在我們的文化因為以前我們的感情在文書都用五分的車這就是"},{"start":5024.141,"end":5041.916,"text":"所以五分車跟我們的台塘有很深的關係對不對也就是我們五分車料我們的塘鐵這是一體的因為它代表的是台塘的歷史我們台塘多久了"},{"start":5044.5,"end":5067.186,"text":"我們現在如果說改成台南人的公司是不要說改成公司啦 就是說從過去到現在我們開始用五分之一來再減價這樣再騰 這樣一路到現在不管你公司怎麼改變 這都不管就是從台湯七十八年七十八年到現在多久啊"},{"start":5068.661,"end":5079.867,"text":"已經70倍年了那78年請問你有沒有想要找回最能代表台唐的歷史"},{"start":5085.179,"end":5102.817,"text":"現在我們可以在運行的我們都盡量去除好現在在運行的你們有沒有盤整過現在到底多少被留下來你說你也當運行的盡量留下來好你有沒有去查查看現在到底"},{"start":5103.84,"end":5123.316,"text":"有多少被留下來目前在運行的跟委員報告就是西武糖廠到草埔段第二個是蒜頭糖廠到那個嘉義的高鐵站以及新營糖廠的到中興站到那個火燒店站"},{"start":5124.622,"end":5125.102,"text":"以前最"},{"start":5151.977,"end":5168.791,"text":"多的時候是三千多公里在台灣那目前跟委員報告我們在運行大概三十公里左右三千多公里跟三十公里這差了五天了吧我們要怎麼去保存台東的我們的力量"},{"start":5170.61,"end":5192.973,"text":"我想因為這差太遠了吧我為什麼來董事長為什麼用這個問題來跟你討論就以淵源最深的台南來講台南跟台中的淵源有親嗎有很深吧對我們的現在總公司也在台南是啊是好在台南被保留了多少"},{"start":5196.57,"end":5214.265,"text":"現在台南被保留的是132.5公里啦被保留的被保留的對包括立道你是說被保留我是說你有真正開發成為五分之一回歸過去基地的這部分是多少"},{"start":5215.82,"end":5230.137,"text":"8.6在泰南有8.6嘛對132目前被保留但是8.2有真正開發還保留五分車的這樣的一個歷史原貌對不對對好那請問該不會差太多"},{"start":5233.393,"end":5257.583,"text":"跟委員報告 你要怎麼串聯 你要怎麼串聯五分車在要開的話 相關的比如說安全還有那個方便性 還有有的可能要所以囉 董事長 今天我為什麼用這個議題我要跟你討論的是 我們要怎麼保留台唐整個歷史文化"},{"start":5259.04,"end":5284.355,"text":"我們要從五分之一回頭開始說但是今天我們已經遺忘了這個比例差太遠了我們怎麼在安全的考量又可以恢復它原始的一個歷史風貌來做一個交通串聯這是我們要做的而不是今天想到說這很困難的要把它串聯起來很困難的"},{"start":5288.53,"end":5313.706,"text":"一個困難我們就裹足不前我們怎麼對得起在整個78年以來走過的堂鐵走過的文化董事長我們要不要用一個專案我從過去一直談談到現在還是一樣我們的進度非常的緩慢"},{"start":5315.885,"end":5332.711,"text":"一定是要由縣市政府主力推我也知道有困難可是我覺得遺憾的是如果在台南我們可以把保護那家家團體慢慢一段一段把它串聯起來"},{"start":5334.124,"end":5352.05,"text":"我相信他絕對是原台南縣也就是說在我們整個農村生活還有食農教育一個非常好的串聯對不對你可以想像那個情境嗎我很期待"},{"start":5353.24,"end":5363.148,"text":"我不認為說真的盤整有這麼困難我也不認為說恢復有這麼困難我更不認為串聯有這麼困難事在人為"},{"start":5364.4,"end":5388.812,"text":"董事長 我們要不要來開創一個先機我們來努力一下好不好好 我們專案來study一下當然也是要各地縣市政府來配合你們的態度也很重要啊縣市政府每一次如果跟我們台湯在討論這個問題你們就說 哇 安全"},{"start":5392.094,"end":5414.01,"text":"安全這兩個字不是不能突破啊 沒錯 現在我們一定要比照現在台鐵它的安全系這是沒錯的 因為安全第一 可是不是不能做 也不是不能進行可是我們每一次都把這兩個字擺在前面之後 好像動都動不了"},{"start":5415.371,"end":5442.944,"text":"這是不應該的好不好董事長我們要努力一下study一下然後再來我希望就是說我們能夠重振糖鐵文化來帶動觀光還有五分車來串聯我們的交通這是非常重要的另外一個就是閒置多年將近30公頃的台南新營糖廠如何活化再利用"},{"start":5444.226,"end":5455.933,"text":"董事長 地方政府開了兩次會市政府在辦都市計畫的更新他開了兩次會嘛第一次會是在2024年的10月30號第二次是這個剛剛"},{"start":5466.138,"end":5489.244,"text":"剛剛這個1月8號2025年的1月8號第二場現在在做所有的一些相關的討論如何把它轉型為文化創意產業園區然後結合我們的歷史建築還有文化資產如何發展成為一個休閒文化藝術觀光多功能的空間我們希望我們台堂"},{"start":5490.869,"end":5515.397,"text":"應該要全力配合對 我們一定會全力配合我們的文化歷史或觀光等之類的因為我們在這個區塊裡面有幾個市定古蹟也就是我們的鹽水港治堂諸市會社的總社辦公室還有塑膠工廠的辦公室還有員工餐廳還有宿舍群這四個市定古蹟然後還有26個"},{"start":5516.857,"end":5535.622,"text":"文化資產潛力的建築所以我相信我們一定要透過這個串聯把這樣的一個在地歷史文化保留兼具觀光所以我剛剛講的為什麼塘田很重要交通很重要我過去在新娘大學"},{"start":5536.892,"end":5556.989,"text":"在新娘我印度的記憶我們經過都看到五分那車在鐵軌當中在跑那種記憶永遠記憶猶新我們一起努力我們如果把西北重新能夠整合再出發台塘扮演很重要的角色謝謝請張家俊委員質詢"},{"start":5573.228,"end":5575.953,"text":"主席我想請郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":5582.728,"end":5608.331,"text":"部長我想請問您記不記得前陣子本席跟您提起說我們斗六長治久安公園產發署就是產業園區管理局多次的在地方開會就是不願意來做公園的整治然後導致地方民怨在天可不可以請部長做一個回答請問這件事情的進度為何"},{"start":5611.004,"end":5637.089,"text":"這個部分我是不是詳細的部分由這個這個我們的那個局長來報告局長我想要知道的是說為什麼已經去會勘過那局長在現場也答應了大家說這個公園他一定會來整治但是在局長之下呢他的主任呢跟他所有的員工都不願意去執行到底是為什麼呢部長可以協助來了解呢"},{"start":5638.882,"end":5659.295,"text":"像委員報告那個經費的部分已經匡列了第二個規劃的部分今年會執行是那如果是這樣子的話當然我覺得非常的好部長可以拜託您繼續追蹤這個案件嗎因為在現場的部分呢我據我所知我現場去到那個"},{"start":5660.997,"end":5676.977,"text":"管理的這個辦公室 他告訴我說除非縣政府願意接管 否則他們是不願意來執行的那我覺得這一點是非常的不可行喔 也不可取 那我在這裡拜託部長繼續追蹤這個案件 那接下來呢我想要請教部長有關於陳"},{"start":5679.16,"end":5692.351,"text":"立這個綠電平台台灣智慧電能初期是由中鋼成立那到現在為止有很多販官股都已經被經濟部拉來一起投資了部長知道是哪一些販官股嗎我們現在這個這個是由這個中鋼他發起的啦那販官股的部分大概跟這個"},{"start":5705.415,"end":5731.72,"text":"方關股大概就是有綠電需求的是我們主要希望有綠電需求的方關股能夠加入據本席所知有耀華玻璃、ITIC、中華電信、中油、台灣高鐵跟國發基金那本席好奇的是這些方關股是真的自願的嗎它是自願來的還是是政策所比"},{"start":5732.862,"end":5737.051,"text":"報告委員我們經濟部的態度是這樣的就是說不強迫"},{"start":5738.39,"end":5766.487,"text":"不會強迫他們來參加啦就是有需求歡迎他加入因為我們建立這個平台是要解決小額然後沒有這麼長20年的需求的這些讓他們來加入那據本席所知包括國發基金包括ITIC包括耀華玻璃他們都不需要大量的這個綠電很顯然跟政策就是所逼有些微的關係因為如果是自願的"},{"start":5767.407,"end":5772.27,"text":"為什麼前兩天這個中鋼的工會他就來台北抗議他們覺得經濟部強迫中鋼要投資這個售電平台甚至影響到了這個中鋼的股價"},{"start":5782.617,"end":5804.351,"text":"部長會不會是因為台電已經賠的夠慘了所以這個拉台自電就是來約這些所有的國營企業一起來分擔風險因為所有的員工都很擔心他們的公司會不會步上台電的後塵是不是請部長說明一下可以這個部分我要跟委員報告第一個我們絕對沒有強迫"},{"start":5806.634,"end":5815.081,"text":"這些公司加入這樣的一個收電平台這是第一件事情我必須要澄清的因為中鋼的總工會他就說台製電恐成乾坑啊他們擔心他們這個員工的權益會受影響您覺得呢我認為這樣啦這是溝通的問題啦就是說中鋼的這個經營階層必須要跟工會再溝通啦因為工會可能是誤解所以他才會有這樣一個說法"},{"start":5834.656,"end":5860.297,"text":"部長如果是誤解是最好您知道中鋼有多少員工嗎一萬多名員工但是我認為這件事情一定是誤解沒有溝通的很好所以我要求中鋼的董事長要跟他們充分的溝通那我再問一下部長您知道中鋼的股東人數有多少嗎"},{"start":5862.138,"end":5866.169,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告我跟中綱的董事長我有跟他講"},{"start":5867.284,"end":5891.371,"text":"你們隨時可以退出所以這個我跟部長提醒一下中鋼的股東人數有130萬人那如果加入售電平台造成中鋼的嚴重虧損的話無意識將這個政策的風險轉嫁於這個百萬的股民跟這個中鋼的員工生計之上這個是完全是誤會啦報告委員"},{"start":5893.038,"end":5911.972,"text":"他們把這個事情大概誤會了很大所以我認為這件事情就是溝通再溝通持續繼續溝通到他們能夠了解我們支持你們溝通但是本席想知道的是成立全新的購電平台的必要性是什麼"},{"start":5913.393,"end":5931.245,"text":"購電平台就是服務小額但是沒有長期需求的因為台電他在2021年就已經有成立這個電力交易平台了這不是疊床架屋嗎這個差別在哪裡呢不是疊床架屋台電的就是必須要簽20年25年"},{"start":5934.228,"end":5949.251,"text":"長期的這個購電平台是讓業者小額的他隨時可以買隨時可以可以不買那我再請問一下部長這是在補過去的過去的這個方法補出的地方 根據經濟部的規劃台智電將統包銷25年容量約40億度電總金額至少5500億元那部長目前台智電預計每度電價格"},{"start":5961.853,"end":5967.861,"text":"幾元呢 售價幾元呢這個都誇大其詞 報告委員你如果有必要 我們親自去跟你報告"},{"start":5969.122,"end":5975.665,"text":"讓你非常清楚因為這個我認為是以何傳惹現在都弄到讓委員來這邊質詢了大家現在擔心的是台智電會不會在政策壓力之下被迫高價買綠電然後低價賣出造成虧損不可能確定不可能如果我甚至於我們可以大家勸一個MOU如果他買不到不要來找我們"},{"start":5996.155,"end":6002.582,"text":"那部長我可不可以請教一下台製電到底什麼時候可以開始受電什麼時候才可以打到損一兩瓶呢他不會虧損他不會虧損你可以幫他掛保證嗎你這樣子我都為您擔心了不用為我擔心這個是我的專業"},{"start":6017.267,"end":6035.422,"text":"那我必須要講啦 絕對不能把台電的財務黑洞轉嫁給新的受建平台把問題丟給販官股的企業跟民營調整能源配比 能源政策才是釜底抽薪的辦法 好不好 本席謝謝委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":6044.195,"end":6045.375,"text":"請張祺凱委員質詢請郭部長沒關係 先喝個水"},{"start":6074.704,"end":6075.744,"text":"我問一個一定被國會的問題,新打海資這事情應該被國會"},{"start":6099.468,"end":6124.053,"text":"六十四億六十四億是大減重的事情我去統計啊 去年我們有三變的風態造成的國家的虧損就只有六十四億這個 這是這個虧損六十四億 你看一個錯誤的政策對國家影響有這麼大啊 一月三號中間的這個元剛教幹部啊 總工會起來陳情他們問一個很重要的問題 今天 這邊有五個 我問你"},{"start":6128.179,"end":6155.568,"text":"這64億的這個虧損中鋼全部要吞下去嗎?一間扛起嗎?這對中鋼合理嗎?就公司法來講啦這是他的子公司嘛當然他要扛起來啊對啊那些做結策的人要付錢嗎?中鋼很可憐耶我看去年早上股票還有23塊多耶我剛剛上去看上禮拜跌破二字頭剛剛剩18點多耶"},{"start":6158.406,"end":6181.437,"text":"這是多輸喔 第一個 國家輸喔我們有20%的股份所以國家就輸了嘛 對不對第二個 員工很多人買了很多中鋼的股票那是會退休的關財本 他們說那是關財本耶大幅的縮水第三個 130幾萬的股民國家輸中鋼的員工輸130幾萬的股民輸結果政府現在有沒有人負責 拍拍屁股"},{"start":6187.571,"end":6211.441,"text":"叫中綱負責嗎?這什麼東西要負責?就公司法,就公司法而言就是中綱要負責中綱,還是要找中綱的當事人去做經理還有經濟部的,那時候的經濟部在行政院都要負責啊這個要追責任啊不然他要做不對的事情都,都很可憐股民的,我跟你講現在都有股民搞不好都要告你們告你們背信罪啦怎麼說呢?"},{"start":6213.948,"end":6231.102,"text":"不是,你害人害成這樣,現在還在跌呢?報告委員,我想我們就經營跟工作來源工會,事業有專攻,企業的這個決策是由董事會負責"},{"start":6232.722,"end":6253.762,"text":"對不對 所以柏定的意思很清楚嘛所以柏定的意思就是中間的董事會跟董事長總理要付這個錢董事會對公司的經營做出了一個原則上面的這個決策以後董事長總經理依照董事會的這個決策來實施嘛所以柏定你這個柏定你認為這個事情的責任要怎麼追"},{"start":6255.7,"end":6267.1,"text":"損害這麼嚴重誰要做這個我們剛才是要釐清他為什麼會造成這個樣子然後再從他的過程裡面看有沒有需要我們改進部分現在兩個問題嘛 我剛才問你第一個"},{"start":6269.879,"end":6295.521,"text":"這64億中鋼就吞下去嘛教練一直看他中鋼要負責的嘛對不對那這個公不公平這是第一個問題損害有多大第二個就是責任責任的歸屬嘛你說要檢討嘛對不對你如果還要我們檢討這個事情報告委員這個不是用這樣子來衡量啦齁你看看英特爾是美國發明半導體的公司也賺了那麼多的錢但是在去年虧損那麼大你說應該要追究誰的問題"},{"start":6296.461,"end":6312.687,"text":"這個公司經營不能夠這樣討論啦但是我們認為我們當然有責任去看中鋼為什麼會虧損這件事情到底是出在哪裡下一次再有類似的情形我們就去改善因為這個事情好像中鋼沒有弄應該不是吧"},{"start":6314.653,"end":6334.999,"text":"他就是推國產化嘛 對不對推國產化嘛 叫星達海基 國產化的東西做不出來嘛 對不對所以才會這64億才會虧損嘛 是不是這樣那你的國產化可能沒有錯 可是你為什麼當初沒有很詳細的很細膩的去做這件事情所以政府 三百塊民主競敵 責任政治政府都完全沒有責任嗎報告委員"},{"start":6336.36,"end":6351.489,"text":"策略是正確的但是達不到策略的目標的話應該去檢討執行的過程有沒有錯誤啦我想這個你應該是同意這樣說法那我在看因為我們後來事後檢討是因為他的學籍曲線太慢"},{"start":6352.429,"end":6370.644,"text":"第二個新達港的這個港的這個深度不夠但是這個風電的這個市場已經改變非常大就是我們的進步太慢跟不上這個時代的改變所以這個是作為我們下一次再投資的時候我們必須要衡量"},{"start":6371.857,"end":6396.166,"text":"五年以後十年以後的這個技術環境到達哪裡我們能不能夠進入所以損害已經造成了這個怎麼去彌補這個虧損不要只有中鋼員工跟國民吞下去第二個你剛講的嘛好好去檢討要趕快檢討啦我們現在是就這個部分那從這個星島海基的這個錯誤政策或者說你剛講的執行力不利造成這個虧損來講下一個更嚴重了"},{"start":6399.141,"end":6407.619,"text":"你剛才說不強迫啊現在台製電台製電這個事情演算到什麼程度你剛才說不強迫問題是中間一直一千萬已經丟下去了是不是"},{"start":6409.707,"end":6432.324,"text":"我的了解 我知道的內幕是中綱下面都已經空出來 它都已經開始在組織化已經人力啊什麼辦公室都找啦中綱已經被你們受命要做啦我跟委員報告 我也有親自跟這個黃董事長講如果你們跟工會沒有辦法解釋得很清楚沒有溝通得很詳細 你全部退出"},{"start":6432.904,"end":6453.672,"text":"你全部退出沒有問題沒有問題白紙黑紙喔我第二輪進來的話你已經說了就是中綱如果董事長跟總工會這邊跟他們員工溝通大家沒有答應他們是隨時可以退出行不行是的包括那一千萬可以可以沒有問題沒有問題好這是第一個第二個"},{"start":6454.859,"end":6479.871,"text":"這個平臺 這個綠電平臺 我一定不會跟你要求過你台電之前有綠電平臺 你就好好用台電你為什麼要去成立這個新的第二個 第二個很嚴重啊 我跟你講你一直保證說不會虧錢 對不對我一定會知道 台積電通不明就台積電 綠電公司要問他 問他一套門戶嘛 對不對他都不買了嘛那你想不想 去年我去查113年 我們短過電價 風電短過電價一套是多少錢"},{"start":6486.598,"end":6496.365,"text":"113年綠電的短貨電價是多少?4.6元4.5元將近4.6元我們用短貨電價一邊去簽20年還是25年是4.5到4.6元你買台積電5塊台積電不買對不對那你現在跟我講你去買你會比去年的短貨電價高還是低?"},{"start":6512.779,"end":6519.686,"text":"如果你比他高那就台電去買就好啦這個等過電價就是台電去買的價格嘛台電現在也不要這個價格啊"},{"start":6521.62,"end":6547.177,"text":"你現在不會虧欠 畢竟現在兩個事情嘛第一你要保證你的價格不會比這個原來的短過電價高嘛是不是 這是第一嘛你今天可以做這個保證嗎第二個就是我說的你要先找到買家你才能夠賣喔要不然的話你現在一直都不曉得買家在哪裡你簽什麼MOU都不準喔你KU要先打出來喔哪一個企業要買你的電你說聯電啦 什麼東和 東和鋼鐵都要買電對不對MOU都不準"},{"start":6551.623,"end":6573.957,"text":"這幾間公司一定要跟他簽,你買多少電有確定,有買家我才能夠去買,不然買一百九千就是買了之後銷唄出來嘛對不對這跟台電現在的狀況是一樣的嘛,那以後這個平台買了一堆電沒有買家到後來就是叫中鋼去用,中華電信去用,中友去用嘛現在中鋼的國票現在會落,為什麼那股票會跌"},{"start":6577.654,"end":6587.483,"text":"在新台海去移軌就是為了那些過電平台啊你要趕快去踩煞車啊那今天委員既然這樣講我想我已經答應說讓他退出嘛他明天會不會股票會不會漲"},{"start":6589.332,"end":6615.807,"text":"會不會長來這個因素已經沒有了來來拭目以待啦今天部長說講了那當然你要打你講的話要能夠落實喔這也是國會殿堂所以我講的就是我必須要去執行的事情所以我再講我再講一次中綱如果沒有辦法跟他的這個國會的同跟他這個工會的同仁做充分的溝通"},{"start":6616.767,"end":6633.331,"text":"那麼他隨時可以推出這個平台部長今天做了很鄭重的宣布我想中鋼很多的員工現在應該是股長叫好的包括那一百三十幾萬的股民我就看部長這個保證以後股票還沒跳起來馬上檢視 好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員不要講但是我問一下我問一下自己的大事我電郭要請你去我自己考察"},{"start":6639.853,"end":6663.622,"text":"你當場有 我們有提到我們家裡是棒球的這個園鄉 很有名的就是卡農你當場也講說你們會去認養跟幫助嘛 對不對那現在出 現在達成了怎麼樣的現在就是由台糖公司來這個協助嘉義大學的這個棒球隊怎麼樣來協助 至少兩個事情要做啊"},{"start":6663.962,"end":6680.502,"text":"就是第一個要不要冠名 例如說冠你看你有很多嘛 你台電中央都有球隊例如冠名 冠名台灣台灣糖業這個第一個冠名第二個我們有嘉義 這個卡農有棒球場嘛嘉義大學有這個棒球場可以來任良這個棒球場對不對"},{"start":6681.832,"end":6710.792,"text":"還是做什麼樣的幫忙我們就先把球隊然後冠名這是第一個階段第二個階段才會協助他們怎麼樣訓練提升他的戰績這樣子好 謝謝喔所以從今天開始嘉義的不只是有名的Canon嘉義大學的棒球隊全世界有名不是台灣喔是 這個你可以問嘉義大學的校長也可以問我們台塘的董事長我們都已經這個都已經形成了好 那就是有台塘"},{"start":6711.372,"end":6729.667,"text":"台塘嘉義大學棒球隊了是不是是以後要盡量幫忙這個對整個嘉義不是只有棒球整個體育會有很大的一個發展台塘也做了一件很重要的事情你們投入體育你看我們中間都有球隊對不對中友台電都有了以後恭喜台塘也有個好的球隊謝謝委員支柱謝謝"},{"start":6741.516,"end":6765.019,"text":"在謝一鳳委員質詢完畢 我們休息 現在請鄭天才委員質詢主席 貴委員 有請台糖公司 請吳董事長"},{"start":6775.829,"end":6803.109,"text":"董事長好也請那個業務部門來協助這個就是談這個台糖公司在接收日記時代接收日記時期自糖株式會社的土地日本統治台灣的時候成立了這個"},{"start":6807.825,"end":6835.265,"text":"治堂諸市會社然後他們敗戰之後離開了這個台灣沒有把土地帶回去當時的行政院在南京呢當時的行政院就接收成立了台堂公司接收這個日本諸市會社的土地而這些土地"},{"start":6836.536,"end":6856.181,"text":"有很多很多是原住民的土地你們接受之後按照你們的資料那個備註下面就寫得很清楚接收接收然後35年5月1號作為一個開始"},{"start":6861.011,"end":6885.457,"text":"出租給我們鄉親然後開始收租金我過去在台南省政府服務為了原住民真化邊原住民保留地就開始辦理的時候遇到台糖公司的土地就必須要由政府來架構去買"},{"start":6887.774,"end":6916.152,"text":"因為它不是公有土地如果依轉型正義的原則其實是應該直接就還給原住民才對因為並不是你們買的當初並不是你們台商公司本來自己的土地但是我們當初都是用這個方式所以在民國95年我那時候在中央演民會擔任副主委"},{"start":6917.318,"end":6945.733,"text":"立法委員我的前輩質詢之後我們就開始進行那這一次就是112年我們來看一下112年經過質詢多次之後這個行政院核定第二次架構台塘土地112年7月27號這個行政院原則同意人民會所報的這個計畫"},{"start":6947.332,"end":6956.996,"text":"然後並照國家發展委員會審議意見來辦理這個寫得很清楚好我們看這個國發會剛才寫的國發會的一個函"},{"start":6963.534,"end":6981.128,"text":"啊 意見 審議的意見這裡面有提到啊 這個土地當時 所 聯名會所報的土地面積啊 1點多公頃 不多啊 41筆啊那我現在請業務單位請目前這個進度怎麼樣"},{"start":6985.902,"end":7001.817,"text":"跟委員報告 行政院核定的這1.44公頃我們已經提報董事會已經同意依照行政院還有國會這個指示的原則來辦理那我們後續已經也跟原民會這邊簽訂這個土地買賣契約書然後接下來就會買賣契約書完成了嗎"},{"start":7006.755,"end":7036.338,"text":"完成了沒12月中旬12月中旬已經完成 那我們董事會是11月份的時候 董事會通過以上報告為好 謝謝那個資料啊第一個就是說總共比數還有面積這第一個 素面補充資料 第二個金額是多少金額是多少請問一下業務單位啊原則上就是以41比那個"},{"start":7039.028,"end":7063.061,"text":"這作為那個比數跟面積嗎57比57比有增加總共1.44公頃好好我們接下來要談的是什麼呢我們看國發會的說明2的瓜福2的下面我畫紅線的我念一下"},{"start":7064.551,"end":7088.763,"text":"依據公有土地增化邊原住民保留地審查作業規範的規定77年2月1號以前原住民即使用祖先遺留下來的這些土地這個也要繼續辦理這是國發會當初報給行政院所以這個部分我們接下來接下來因為之前"},{"start":7090.697,"end":7115.831,"text":"之前辦的主要是以民國35年5月1號之前簽約的部分那事實上這個因為那時候是考慮到經費各方面的因素所以要分期來辦理國發會當初的意見是這樣所以才會有這個國發會說明二的瓜福二的後段這樣的一個"},{"start":7118.18,"end":7130.644,"text":"現在就是要請台糖公司再去盤點除了之前已經合訂的之外然後你們也簽約了"},{"start":7132.902,"end":7153.059,"text":"現在簽約還沒有移轉嗎還沒有正在辦正在辦正在辦移轉的手續那後續要繼續辦理後續要按照行政院核定依國發會的意見來辦理所以後續的部分要繼續辦理而資料就是在你們手上"},{"start":7155.47,"end":7164.913,"text":"誰曾租了這些土地上次我已經告訴這個台糖公司的這個承辦單位花蓮"},{"start":7166.36,"end":7184.255,"text":"台東的這邊的懲罰單位怎麼去知道這些土地他們已經知道了 方法上都有了所以要後續來辦理所以你們部分主動要提供這個相關的盤點這些資料 可以嗎好 好 我們因為時間的關係我們就先到這邊 謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":7197.639,"end":7222.369,"text":"請謝依鳳委員質詢謝謝主席我想要請郭部長請郭部長委員好郭部長早我要跟你直球對決我要問你"},{"start":7226.863,"end":7252.805,"text":"川普即將要上任那他過去說全方位的提高關稅現在他說只針對攸關國家或者是經濟安全的特定產業我問你是什麼那未來如果他採取這樣子的關稅的時候那對於台灣我們的危機在哪裡請說"},{"start":7256.354,"end":7282.4,"text":"首先回答這個委員關切的這個命題我想對台灣的威脅就我們到目前所了解的程度雖然他1月20號才會上去但是我們從他周邊所用的人跟這一些任職在新的他的內閣的人的行為來看他的這個讓美國更加偉大的這個做法"},{"start":7284.482,"end":7311.307,"text":"關稅大概這個關稅的部分大概只是他在選舉前講的真正的1月20號以後他落實的部分就像剛才委員所詮詢的可能會有一種不同不過這些命題我們想這個國家安全的部分相對的是比較多的對於國家安全的關稅提高是比較多的是不是所以他應該都是針對中國"},{"start":7313.059,"end":7341.058,"text":"针对中国所以我们在内部讨论的这个方式就这样就是说我们如何帮助我们台商在台商对这个川普他对这个粗糙的部分他很考虑所以我们怎么样移转协助我们的厂商移转到他可能会增加关税的这个区域那么移动到"},{"start":7342.093,"end":7362.148,"text":"不會增加關稅的地方從會增加關稅移動到不會增加關稅這是你們的做法嗎是不是譬如說在選前他一直在講他會對他最鄰近的兩個國家墨西哥跟加拿大課以高的關稅跟對中國課以更高的關稅"},{"start":7363.909,"end":7379.559,"text":"這是他講的所以我們會針對他這樣一個假設的情境來跟廠商做一些討論我們盡量讓廠商的傷害是最小的以我們討論到目前的結論來講的話"},{"start":7384.066,"end":7406.851,"text":"對臺灣影響比較大的應該是ICT的相關的產業ICT的產業另外一個然後第二個傳產的部分應該是在汽車因為川普我們根據很多的研究者經濟學家的分析川普是比較可能是比較"},{"start":7408.393,"end":7428.866,"text":"他的印象之中也就是80年代的美國可能是他的picture80年代美國非常強大的時候那麼一直存在他的腦海裡面所以這樣子的一個關鍵我們是有跡可循的所以他認為80年代美國最強大的是什麼汽車業汽車業建築業"},{"start":7432.293,"end":7444.175,"text":"所以他想要把汽車移回去美國生產是嗎沒有錯所以你可以看到這個Mask回去了他現在要增加的部分都在美國"},{"start":7445.66,"end":7466.034,"text":"好那我再問你你認識OTN過去的總代表我們鄧正宗總代表嗎他在他提出了他對於川普上台之後有可能發生的問題他有提出一點他說如果未來"},{"start":7467.475,"end":7486.489,"text":"川普要求台灣跟他一起打擊大陸的時候是不是會減少要我們減少對大陸的進口而增加對美國的進口你認為這時候台灣要怎麼因應會不會對於我們的物價造成影響"},{"start":7488.359,"end":7503.869,"text":"我們現在對中國的投資跟對美國的投資已經非常大的改變在過去的這幾年內所以我們要從中國進口的東西其實是已經不多了"},{"start":7505.475,"end":7531.31,"text":"我們對中國的輸出也不多了其實鄧先生所提出來的這個觀點我們會參考你說的不多其實我們還是大部分當然對比於過去幾年來已經大幅度的降低但是還是很大程度的從大陸進口因為我們從中國大陸進口的東西一定會"},{"start":7532.932,"end":7556.012,"text":"想殲滅是比較嚴重的延遲對我們國內的事業一定有非常大的影響因為中國對出國的東西強化它的補助所以造成我們國內我們如果開放讓中國的東西進口到台灣的話我們台灣很多的傳產很多的中小企業可能都沒有辦法存活下去"},{"start":7556.753,"end":7579.399,"text":"所以在這個部分的話經濟部會有一套保護國內中小微企業繼續發展的一個方式那我們相信透過我們現在這個雙軸轉型的方法一個用AI來提升我們台灣企業的這個價值型的這個活動第二個透過我們的節能減碳"},{"start":7580.399,"end":7600.971,"text":"的補助來降低我們這些中小微企業的製造成本第三個我們可能會擴大加速我們國內的基建基礎建設那基礎建設擴大加速的話就會讓我們的中小微企業"},{"start":7602.318,"end":7627.137,"text":"得到国内自己的订单好这是理想的状态啦但是我们必须要了解美国自己有没有办法减少从大陆的进口美国自己也从大陆进口非常多的东西是不是那如果他们从大陆降低从大陆的进口会不会反而造成他美国的通膨呢"},{"start":7627.857,"end":7645.502,"text":"這也是他們應該要考量的但是美國的通膨我們發現美國在看過去的通膨非常的厲害在過去COVID-19造成了這麼大的通膨美國發債所以讓他現在的通膨的影響只有在2點多%所以這個就是他們美國的經濟的這個"},{"start":7647.984,"end":7664.462,"text":"处理的模式我相信在未来就是他对中国实以高关税但是这个不是完全没有替代性的所以我认为他们有办法应应中国他提高关税的方式第二个"},{"start":7665.421,"end":7693.486,"text":"大部分這個基礎的這一些生活所需的設施中國雖然價格很便宜但是品質還是堪慮所以這個替代性相當的高我相信美國他們會有方法來面對這樣的一個現象好 謝謝好 謝謝委員指教因為林委員有事我們就調整一下休息請林代化委員質詢"},{"start":7704.229,"end":7704.269,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":7746.649,"end":7756.335,"text":"有請郭部長請郭部長午安好"},{"start":7759.062,"end":7769.289,"text":"為何產業的期待卻在街頭矢口中鋼工會北上抗議經濟部離岸風電國產化的政策讓高雄鋼鐵及金屬加工產業由期待變成傷害開發業者的金錢遊戲所包裝的綠能力劍"},{"start":7779.517,"end":7788.39,"text":"变成产业的追星之痛关键就在于国产化产业政策的执行的不确实所导致的好我们来看这个绿电平台"},{"start":7790.864,"end":7818.04,"text":"綠電交易平台為何遭到中鋼工會的強烈不滿跟抗議如果今天中鋼公司配合中央人員及產業政策進行投資成立的新達海基投入的離岸風電水下結構政府依照政府自己的承諾務實要求離岸風電的開發業者需符合國產化的比例辦理而且政府沒有重北輕南的產業輔導政策"},{"start":7819.861,"end":7835.571,"text":"的方向新達海基會如此黯然落幕嗎所以在新達海基他其實是在離岸風電的這個產業當中縱北親南之下離岸風電國產化政策欺負南台灣欺負高雄人的最直接證據"},{"start":7836.92,"end":7854.949,"text":"好所以呢當然這影響到中鋼工會來抗議綠電平台投資案是基於中鋼公司對離岸風電國產化完全失去信心當然你們講得很好啊你要辯解綠電平台你們講得很棒這可以解決大型企業對綠電採購的觀望所導致綠電無法整平賣出"},{"start":7859.151,"end":7888.063,"text":"這也解決了中小企業需求綠電買不起整批綠電或者買不到適量綠電所以這個綠電平台由政府坐東5500億採買無法零售的離岸風電進行化整為零銷售給中小企業這其中的風險就是在於歐盟規定2030年前進入歐盟市場所有的產品都必須符合RE100規範但是綠電平台的前期就有沉沒成本"},{"start":7888.903,"end":7915.405,"text":"好 部長綠電平台如果如你所講它只是一個綠電貿易商一定有利潤你就不一定要讓中鋼集團投入啊中鋼集團已經經不起64億打水漂的星達海基了這一次是5500億啊 部長如果今天真的將你講的那麼有利可圖那你就評估有其他不會的放工股集團來處理 可以嗎"},{"start":7918.035,"end":7936.336,"text":"剛才在回答前面兩位委員的說法如果中鋼的董事長沒有辦法跟工會充分的溝通那麼讓工會可以屏息掉他們的疑慮我說過了中鋼隨時可以退出這個平台"},{"start":7937.588,"end":7964.599,"text":"你怎麼會讓中鋼來處理呢你不考量你自己不考量放供苦集團嗎你為什麼硬壓著中鋼要做這件事情如果有利可圖啊你的財政部下交通部下交通部下的中華電信啊財政部下的也有啊你為什麼不找其他可以資源比較好的如果像你這麼講的那麼好那我不敢再講說叫台電再叫中油了他們已經昆鼠連連了你是不是有點誤會了我剛才在講"},{"start":7968.14,"end":7979.449,"text":"中鋼雖然是發起人他也可以退出那你就直接找你直接就找 竟然有疑慮啊你就直接找其他發起人中鋼配合就好你為什麼要讓他做主導呢"},{"start":7980.356,"end":7999.003,"text":"沒有啊 你為什麼要做主導你就找那個中華電信來啊我其他經濟部的其他辦公股我才直接的其他投入就好你為什麼讓他做發起人所以這個根本就是你們自己已經在國產化政策讓我這個中南部的業者讓新達海基整個信心崩盤嘛"},{"start":8001.124,"end":8027.392,"text":"所以可不可以有其他部會的放工股集團來處理直接回應你為什麼一定要押著中鋼來做這件事情我沒有押著中鋼做這件事情剛才你一直講啊如果中鋼的董事長不能信服中鋼是你們行政院指派的他就提名於你啊你為什麼自己對於這樣子不知道說這個原解鈴還是蓄鈴人啊你們放任在整個離岸風電國產化當中讓我中南部的業者"},{"start":8028.332,"end":8037.317,"text":"這樣的一個受傷慘重然後你要逼著中鋼在已經六十四億打水漂了再投資個五千五百億當然你會說五千五百億我們大家來投資啊六十四億就在那邊咧整個沒有欸這政府這個政策殺人欸"},{"start":8044.465,"end":8063.704,"text":"可不可以由其他部會辦公股集團來處理你為什麼要壓著這個中綱來做可以,如果委員是這麼堅持的話,沒有問題好,可以,那你就由其他部會的辦公股集團來處理喔那你們就繼續來做就他退出就可以啦我們這個公股平台已經建立了嘛"},{"start":8064.448,"end":8092.916,"text":"他退出就可以啦你這句話越講越矛盾什麼叫做他退出可是你壓著他做的嘛我沒有壓著他做好那你說那你要請誰做既然他抗議的話那你要請誰做都有人可以做來你說竟然都會有利可圖啊你說中油嗎中油總董事長在這邊還是台電你講啊誰會公家機關會說有一個政策沒有有一個政策你不講說哪一個主管機關有一個主管機關會自己跳出來做的"},{"start":8093.871,"end":8121.58,"text":"我從來沒聽過我從來沒聽過24年的立委七屆的服務了我從來沒聽過不是你們指令下去給中鋼他會做嗎所以你就講啊如果你覺得中鋼人家反彈那麼大那你覺得有誰來啊我這麼多的放光股公司嘛所以你要來評估嘛好多久時間你要評估其他的放光股公司你要多久來評估出其他的放光股公司來做主要的發起人中鋼不要"},{"start":8123.615,"end":8149.189,"text":"我們到今年的4月其他的公司都會入股了4月4月那主要發起人是誰還是要中鋼嗎來 胡安中胡市長他已經是存在的一個公司了嘛發起人跟其他我其他加入股份的是不一樣我加10%我加0.5%那也是在加跟我加了60%跟我加了49%加51%是不一樣的"},{"start":8151.73,"end":8165.643,"text":"我想委員你所爭議的是中鋼的權益嘛當然啊 對不對你已經64億打水漂了而且是你們中央政策放水耶放水讓北部的業者自己所以我們的離岸風電國產化是假的是反而我們救了誰的國產化救了韓國的鋼鐵業的國產化哪有什麼國內的國產化"},{"start":8176.291,"end":8202.526,"text":"好 我們繼續檢討 所以這個題目你要回答我由其他部會的放工股集團來處理 可以嗎我們就在4月就全部進來了好 OK 來 那我們來檢討還有沒有辦法就國產化綠能發電的本質它有幾個特性綠能都是運用現有的可循環天然資源進行發電第二個 不論風光地熱等綠能天然資源的調查才是關鍵第三 綠能發電它是一個財務工程"},{"start":8203.046,"end":8229.998,"text":"它是道道地地的財務槓桿的遊戲而非高科技的工程離岸風電更甚如此第四個國家公告的開發領選的規則是有鑑別性的選商的是要符合資格才可以進來的而第五個歐盟向WTO申訴的行為本質是商業競爭行為這個是我對於郭部長您上來你沒有馬上認知到歐盟向WTO申訴這是一個商業競爭行為好"},{"start":8231.559,"end":8252.093,"text":"那沒關係本席可以理解國家重視WTO的考量不限制離岸風電第三階段第三期3-3國產化的要求我只能理解我不能接受但是3.3期之前的國產化規定國家應該寸步不讓好等一下我把這幾個規定講清楚那部長你來回應"},{"start":8253.834,"end":8263,"text":"針對三之一 三之二的國產化 您是不是還會堅持我就從這邊的 這個是你們的遴選規定 這都是你們的規定出來的為扶持國內產業與關鍵能源的政策 因此制定了遴選規則明訂需達到申請容量60%的國產化單一風場的500MW規模則水下基礎需要20座的需要國產化的方案"},{"start":8278.73,"end":8299.641,"text":"好 再來有這個零選規定還有第二個特色分店場的開發業者與投標前需提供國廠化的供應商的名單及零選規則且明擺著即使我要更換優先順序的廠商也僅限於選商報告內所載的供應商 即使我要換"},{"start":8300.942,"end":8310.031,"text":"我也必須在這個給你們的報告商中的廠商去換他是有鑑別性的符合條件的好那國家離岸風電水下結構產業狀況我就要為我大高雄南台灣講話九大工項"},{"start":8317.138,"end":8328.732,"text":"24家的業者都在高屏區 只有一家在台中 台塑重工在雲林 其他都在高雄屏東能夠百分百的執行離岸風電水下結構所以國產化的技術團隊是沒問題的好"},{"start":8331.835,"end":8356.322,"text":"那你人員需求綁架的政府的公權力嗎高雄的金屬加工及扣件業者現在中央產業發展政策投入巨額的資金每一家動輒都失業這是中小企業至今卻顆粒未收遭到開發商各種理由啊說我們不適合規範排除啦集團集團的交期啊本來四五個月應該要完成就要求國內者要六到九月這樣就說我們國內無產製這都是政府沒有去挺業者"},{"start":8360.503,"end":8362.285,"text":"這樣進而就讓開發商來規避國產化的要求所以當初經濟部說要組成離岸風電國家隊進軍東亞風電市場如今高雄的業者卻是哀鴻遍野"},{"start":8375.8,"end":8385.991,"text":"這是道道地地的政策殺人莫勝於此所以我對於你說你要3.3啊這個放棄國產化我真的是大步以為然那整個我中南部整個都是真的不知道怎麼講了投資了數十億的設備就方位在那邊然後整個的大的碼頭中鋼不做民間來做"},{"start":8394.24,"end":8417.527,"text":"就是真的積極的在找訂單好 但是不破網禮安風電第三階段的第一期跟第二期的國產化政策會不會務實執行維持60%的國產化比例部長請回答政府的立場就是我們凡是答應的事情就是會做到所以三之一 三之二國產化政策會務實執行60%的國產化比例嗎"},{"start":8422.506,"end":8450.019,"text":"我們當然是 這個是以前的規定就必須要遵守好 31 32 還是維持百分之六十的國產化 是嗎第三遍再問一次我已經回答過了所以是是還不是請你直接把這句話完整去 這句話太重要了請你如果同意附送一次經濟部支持離岸風電第三階段第一期第二期國產化政策維持百分之六十的國產 講一遍"},{"start":8452.776,"end":8454.898,"text":"我這邊是為我中南部的業者發聲啊你一上來就是屈服於 怯懦於整個一個國際遊戲規則所有的開發商集結起來要欺負我台灣欺負我台灣的國產化 你竟然接受"},{"start":8470.33,"end":8475.674,"text":"好 那至少3G 3G2我一路了解我國產化的政策你不可能比本席更了解整個的業者這多少家24家都在高頻欸整個就是機械錢是數十億的機械錢 學看錢欸講過了 你剛才在講的所以請你副總一遍部長 副總一遍我一定要得到你這句話否則我就不下台我今天就不離開這個主席台"},{"start":8499.898,"end":8510.524,"text":"你知道你多可惡嗎你知道你的3.3期的說這個屈服於這種國際的遊戲競爭來欺壓國內的國產化業者你就冒然的說你要放開3.3的這個國產化那我說要24家的業者真的是血本無歸啊所以你今天是這麼的不知道明你難道要在WTO裡面留下說中華民國被WTO告的這個結果嗎所以你要有因應啊"},{"start":8526.952,"end":8538.902,"text":"那是因為你沒有方法 你要因應啊至少回歸我講過了 我剛才講過三之一 三之二 我們的條件沒有改啊什麼條件 國產化條件是什麼你剛才講的什麼條件啊你什麼條件 講啊 你講就是國產化多少條件 你不知道嗎你做一個步驟 國產化的比例是多少嗎 講我剛才講了 60%嘛好 OK 繼續"},{"start":8549.811,"end":8569.637,"text":"好繼續 另外不好意思主席不好意思主席讓我再把這句話因為實在是太可惡了好既然這樣第二個喜慕立信始於落實離岸封建的第三期的第三階段的第一期精靈選核發的開發業者如右表這些這五個風場全部是你核定的三之一"},{"start":8570.237,"end":8584.985,"text":"其中海勝風場的由豐瑞開發它是由台電中油也投資將近股權到40%的股權按照規定投標的這個規範及計畫書的承諾務實執行國產化的政策60%中油的董事長也在經濟部長您剛才講說要60%那個中油董事長你來承諾吧"},{"start":8596.345,"end":8602.606,"text":"時間到了不好意思這個你一定要講清楚因為這是有關我國產化請你簡短能不能維持百分之六十的這個國產化的要求你不要告訴我你不涉入這個經營權你已經百分之四十的股份了你已經可以只派董監事了"},{"start":8625.251,"end":8650.263,"text":"你已經有董經事在裡面,你跟我講說你不涉入經營的一個建議甚至你的主張,這我是不能接受的你是在騙外人,你不要騙人家代話是,委員好,那個海勝風場,中央公司佔15%的股權我們有派一席董事,那麼在國產化的這個規定上我們會指示我們的指派的董事呢,在這個合資公司裡面做監督"},{"start":8651.809,"end":8665.073,"text":"所以呢 會不會維持主張60%的國產化就依照國家的政策來辦理對 而且是你們的計畫書喔我沒有額外你們計畫書就要這樣承諾要求好 謝謝 以上好 謝謝好 我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":8707.227,"end":8717.194,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":8779.787,"end":8781.203,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":8853.2,"end":8853.968,"text":"谢谢观看 欢迎订阅我的频道"},{"start":8947.858,"end":8949.087,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":9000.052,"end":9000.135,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":9033.561,"end":9035.885,"text":"好 繼續開會 現在請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席 我們邀請部長請郭部長"},{"start":9055.922,"end":9078.883,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長我們現在總預算裡頭的公務預算1000億那之前我們也追加1000億所以台電希望要撥補這個2000億但是我們看到台電送來的這一份財務改善計畫裡面的報告我不知道你有沒有看過因為它裡面的結論是說就算"},{"start":9081.765,"end":9100.447,"text":"補了2000億在2026年跟2017年呢2027年呢 仍舊會虧損而且台電也特別說他沒有辦法單靠自身努力達到損益兩平而且他還建議喔他建議說如果燃料成本波動"},{"start":9101.408,"end":9121.259,"text":"那麼可考慮適度的來調整民生電價或者是政府持續來補助民生用電那如果依照台電的這一份財務改善計畫的報告來說那是不是 也就是說要繼續的要錢嗎還是要繼續的來漲電價 請教部長"},{"start":9127.884,"end":9136.054,"text":"報告委員我想我們在請這個大院同意撥補這個錢主要是在協助我們改善台電的財務"},{"start":9139.215,"end":9160.227,"text":"當然啊 但是你也曾經講過啊你說如果拿到撥補這2000億如果還在漲電價那就是你下台的時候啊我們聽到了這句話覺得你非常有gas啊所以我們很期待這一份台電的財務計畫的報告但是我們看到了也就是說即使再撥補這個2000億仍舊仍舊 還有兩個方案"},{"start":9165.427,"end":9166.811,"text":"提出兩個方案繼續撥補還是說要漲民生電價請說明"},{"start":9172.129,"end":9192.879,"text":"漲不漲價這個我想委員應該很清楚啦他的報告書已經這麼說了嘛那你認為會不會你認為會不會電價委員他們在決定不過我想行政院大概會考慮未來這個補助的部分可能不會由台電來承擔就是由各個單位自己來編預算來撥補這樣子"},{"start":9198.362,"end":9216.056,"text":"那台電我們現在沒有辦法做未來長期的這個假設所以我們也是就這個115年114、115、116嘛我們大概是談這樣然後大概117、118算出來大概就是會虧損主要還是因為這個洞比較大"},{"start":9217.037,"end":9243.258,"text":"那我們又要借錢拿借錢來做那再來未來的這個我們相信不過我就我的專業來看跟委員報告也就是說因為這個牽扯到材料的這個原料的價格不是控制在自己手上這個我們都要去海外去買一些原料不管是煤或者是這個天然氣這些都是要向外購買"},{"start":9244.099,"end":9259.151,"text":"大部長您這麼回答 也就是台電的這個財務改善計畫那麼您目前所回答跟他們的論點是相同喔那所以民眾看到這個會害怕我即使在波普 因為之前"},{"start":9259.591,"end":9265.496,"text":"你們一再說台電吸收的民生用電2800億但是我們再看到2023年其實我們增資的部分呢已經預算編列是2500億又來一個特別預算是500億如果再加上這2000億等於在三年就有5000億耶"},{"start":9279.589,"end":9282.331,"text":"這就是人民的納稅錢耶所以人民希望的是大家必須要有一套方案讓人民可以知道可以安心嘛尤其在現在通本的這個情況啊"},{"start":9292.623,"end":9317.17,"text":"報告委員現在我們非常同意委員的指教就是說民生的部分民生的部分我們來努力來努力維持這個希望能夠讓這些審議委員能夠同意不漲價民生的部分不漲價我謝謝你的回答因為現在真的民眾很辛苦但是對那個出口的"},{"start":9318.01,"end":9345.193,"text":"他的业务是出口的而且他有很高利润的我们希望他可以这个接受市场的变动的价格好我现在听到部长你诚意的回答也看到民众的心声民生的店价不涨这个这第一个但是我们看到你还是要解决问题也就是在你整个也就是我本身要请教何能"},{"start":9346.414,"end":9367.085,"text":"在你的任內 在賴清德總統的任內 會不會演繹你這又便宜 全世界又認可的 我們不用到目前為止 本席一直希望在這個委員會 在大院執行的時候我也特別要求 本席特別要求你也答應的 光電 風電 天然氣"},{"start":9369.346,"end":9386.286,"text":"接收站以及相關的發電量建設計這個進度你必須逐年的方式來公佈也就是列出每一年的進度跟目標但是到目前為止你答應的時候月底現在已經一月了我們還沒有拿到你的內容為什麼會如此呢"},{"start":9388.769,"end":9405.008,"text":"部長 這是你在大院跟在經濟委員會答應本席的今天已經1月8號本席希望要信所承諾這些就是人民希望要知道的是不是要如期趕快拿出你的這個進度跟目標呢"},{"start":9407.026,"end":9425.766,"text":"我們如果承諾的事情應該是都會如期的交上來那為什麼沒有如期呢是非常暴露出了什麼狀況呢那我回去以後再了解一下好 所以請你敬訴送來我們希望能夠知道我們整個能源究竟要怎麼做"},{"start":9426.486,"end":9438.234,"text":"所以我再一次請教因為大家都知道全世界現在對於核能他們是接受的那請教部長在你的任內以及賴清德總統的任內那會不會核電來研議呢會不會來解除我們用電的壓力嗎"},{"start":9444.278,"end":9463.44,"text":"這個是我們的選項之一,但我們朝這個方面,我們還有三個基本原則在第一個就是所有的國人都能夠同意,然後核廢料的處理沒有問題第三個,它是安全的"},{"start":9463.92,"end":9481.369,"text":"那我也講過了其實我們大家都在朝這個方面在努力朝這個方向而且是選項之一我們也希望解除用電的壓力我也希望這個可以成真你們好好去評估跟研討那接下來本席要請教台智電引發了公會的不滿也到了立法院來抗議所以本席要請教因為之前"},{"start":9489.053,"end":9512.955,"text":"中鋼公會抗議呢?它不是沒有道理的為什麼呢?因為中鋼有轉投資失敗的前例也就是興達海基那興達海基在2018年4月份成立之後配合著我們風電的國廠化政策的成立那資本額34億也因為去年我們國廠化的政策改變他們賠了多少?賠了64億"},{"start":9516.793,"end":9543.378,"text":"64億 所以我們統購的方式風險都在於台積電身上那麼整個開發商他們的風險是又低又賺保所以本席要請教本席要請教 我知道你也有一些看法但是本席首先要請教也就是說如果你還在我們的商業界你是中鋼的董事長 你會投資嗎你會投資嗎"},{"start":9546.667,"end":9565.595,"text":"如果這公司是我的我一定投資你一定投資你一定投資當然那為什麼工會的抗議會這麼大呢工會是員工嘛員工不一定懂得董事會的決策那這個更糟糕喔一個公司如果沒有員工他就沒有董事會了對不對"},{"start":9566.935,"end":9571.398,"text":"不是他不知道 而且是他被前車之鑒嚇到了34億最後賠了64億欸 員工當然緊張啊報告委員我想這是溝通的問題溝通的問題那是不是你們溝通有問題如果他溝通順暢的話那我相信公衛也會支持好"},{"start":9588.05,"end":9600.02,"text":"那你歸咎在他們的抗議是溝通本席希望能夠真正了解他的狀況是如何但是本席就要請問對於整個台積電你的損益跟風險的評估你認為呢我認為是可行啊"},{"start":9607.133,"end":9618.663,"text":"你認為是可行所以如果你還在商界你是中鋼的董事長你也會投資但是我們有前車之鑒也就是新達海基人工很緊張沒什麼一樣的標準就都一樣了對不對他會嚇一跳啊因為你的政策隨時可以轉彎啊"},{"start":9627.071,"end":9647.731,"text":"就因為政策的轉彎從34億的資本額竟然去年因為這個政策轉彎而賠了這個64億我們就專家他們評估的這個結果專家評估為什麼他會虧那麼多基本上是學習曲線能力不足"},{"start":9648.852,"end":9656.037,"text":"那這個更離譜 政府的政策改變學習曲線又不足 哇 那當然虧損年齡當然我們員工會很緊張啊所以就是說 其實他要做這個"},{"start":9664.244,"end":9681.923,"text":"剛剛講那個風電的部分那個地方水下基礎那個是新的東西新的東西其實坦白講我不知道當初為什麼會請中綱做這個事情但是就我現在來看你今天講出這個論點就是我還蠻敬佩你的"},{"start":9685.836,"end":9712.987,"text":"沒有說政府要我們的公司做什麼我們一定要做學習取信衛族的時候讓我們的員工賠了這麼多錢這是政府對不起中鋼啊對不對我認為應該是中鋼的中鋼的經營者要自己要深刻的所以你現在是部長中鋼的經營者必須要去好好的省思這是部長您現在的因為您也是督導者我們也希望台自電的這個事件"},{"start":9714.548,"end":9741.287,"text":"所以台式電這個我就跟他講嘛你可以推出你可以推出當然可以推出當然可以推出隨時都可以推出好 謝謝你要由金油溝通最後一個議題我給你喔也就是光電建制的問題我們一再認為太陽人2025年要20幾個萬但是到目前為止已經在王美樺部長的時候她說跳票了我非常的敬佩她跳票"},{"start":9741.667,"end":9770.313,"text":"他承認然後延到2026年但是我們基於這個統計報導2024年你總共才14.22GW你沒有達到還是再度跳票沒有達到17GW而且據報導今年我們的量是有史以來四年以來最低所以本席要請教部長你要怎麼因應原因到底是什麼你的進度還會再跳票嗎是不是會影響本席非常關心的"},{"start":9771.033,"end":9783.72,"text":"我們的遠大目標2030年我們要達到燃氣五成再生能源三成每兩成因為本席非常的關心每兩成務必一定要這個達到請教因應方案"},{"start":9788.035,"end":9808.785,"text":"我們現在一直都在討論這個方案 包括行政院也好 包括總統府也好我想這個是國家重大的事情市長你現在一直討論 然後你就一直跳票啊2026年你17GW還是沒達到啊 14.22啊那今年 今年據報導又是4年來最低的建制啊"},{"start":9809.685,"end":9835.03,"text":"那會不會再跳票 會不會我們為了要防止再度跳票我們會反省過去為什麼造成跳票 是然後來改善 是然後來追上我們應該要有的這個進度 是這個我們目前正在做好 所以你也把你們目前正在做檢討的方案預計的時程請宿命正在給本席 是的我們一起來達到 檢媒謝謝 謝謝委員"},{"start":9838.753,"end":9858.712,"text":"謝謝楊春衣委員 謝謝部長 請回然後我們接下來請一下劉奕林委員好 謝謝主席部長先休息 我請中郵的方董事長請中郵方董事長"},{"start":9870.465,"end":9896.784,"text":"董事長我們都知道我們國家缺乏自產的這個能源高達97%都是從國外進口而來的所以我們為了讓我們能源能夠穩定在2022年的時候我們就從國外探採工作計畫希望說我們能夠自主能源能夠達到10%但是到了2024年的現在我們的油源跟我們天然氣在我們中油的"},{"start":9897.765,"end":9914.357,"text":"那個鏈產的量大概是4.89%跟2.98%達到這個10%這個目標相距還很大所以要請教董事長那我們中油跟其他國家的合作的那個探勘的這個作業什麼時候可以達到10%什麼時候你們有什麼預計什麼時候"},{"start":9921.618,"end":9937.334,"text":"我很難跟委員報告說我預計什麼時候原因是怎麼樣呢就是在國外的碳勘或者是併購相關的礦區它都會隨著國際的情勢會有很多的一些變化所以在併購礦區的部分"},{"start":9938.888,"end":9953.695,"text":"我們一直希望就是說委員會這邊能給我們公司在探勘預算能夠有足夠預算探勘預算一直給你們我就講了2005年到2023年我們在周邊海域探勘花了31億"},{"start":9956.252,"end":9967.584,"text":"絕本無歸到現在還沒有結果是不是如果我們跟其他國家合作的話這個結果會更好像我們在跟澳洲探勘的原油我們每年可以拿回300萬噸"},{"start":9970.495,"end":9985.724,"text":"300萬桶拿回300萬桶跟泥日的話我們每年可以拿回780萬桶所以是不是用合作的方式會比我們自己在周邊海域探勘來得有成效對 目前我們把重心就放在所以你們有沒有專家來做一個評估是"},{"start":9986.874,"end":9996.966,"text":"那尤其你剛剛講的風險問題現在中東國家中東國家的話我們看到以色列跟巴勒斯坦這個國家這個戰爭已經一年的那未來我們在這邊投資的有這個將近有5%的卡達的液化天然氣的股權的問題你們有在評估風險嗎"},{"start":10006.113,"end":10016.363,"text":"風險有評估跟卡達這個合作我們認為是沒有問題的因為我們跟卡達長期以往有很長久的關係根據以往的過程經歷來看的話卡達這個國家是沒有短掃給台灣這邊所以你認為這個風險不很大我們認為風險不大"},{"start":10030.148,"end":10055.356,"text":"所以要穩定 所以我們投資這個預算的投資在這邊效益還是可以保證沒有問題我們認為 我們信心度很高好 董事長這句話我們就放心了我們一直擔心的就是中東方面的投資那我們希望這個所有的風險評估啊你現在是說沒有問題但是我們希望你們做一個風險評估之後到立法院來做報告好不好 不定時的做這個評估可以嗎 好"},{"start":10056.736,"end":10076.378,"text":"接下來的話就請教董事長因為我們那個在桃園有個三接站三接站我們要天然氣的這個三接站那因為我們外移了455公尺之後那我們很多的漁船要繞道而行甚至我們的天然氣要進來的時候很多漁船都要停下"},{"start":10077.079,"end":10078.962,"text":"把網收起來 停工所以影響了整個漁民的生計比如說他們要到很遠才能夠出海去捕魚他們每年增加了將近10萬塊的燃料的成本"},{"start":10092.56,"end":10108.715,"text":"但我們給他的補助一次性的補助了這個16萬但是他一年的油費就消耗掉了那影響了整個海域的這個生態海流的方式讓漁獲量也減少那有沒有請專家來評估對他們捕魚整個環境影響的話給他們一個相對應的這個補助嗎"},{"start":10113.109,"end":10141.348,"text":"是跟委員報告有關三階這個漁業補償歷經了相當的時間分三階段來處理第一階段是在民國大概90年第一階段都已經處理完了現在可是陸續的捕魚的環境一直都很惡化所以他們抗議聲很大你們有沒有聽到他們的抗議一再請你們去開會我要說明第一階段有關那個漁業權的部分已經補償漁業權也已經撤銷掉這個16萬已經補償我說了第二階段我們補助了大概有"},{"start":10144.273,"end":10145.976,"text":"0.79億這第三階段外推"},{"start":10146.716,"end":10175.555,"text":"這個部分又補貼了補償了0.56億了所以董事長你這樣的補貼方式講這個金額是很不公道的這是因為他們的漁獲量減少或者是說他們的燃料費增加你們用這個海警這個我們的交通船跟這個警戒船來補助他們每一年有300趟次這樣的補助但是你知道嗎他們每次出海捕魚的話本來一次性可以有2萬塊的收入現在不到1萬塊"},{"start":10177.196,"end":10205.261,"text":"那這樣子的話你的補助你講清楚是不對的他們出海都是虧損回來的而且你知道他們四居都在捕魚他們的生計他們未來活下去啊所以你應該跟他們再多多的溝通了解他們整個捕魚環境的改變變化由我們專家學者來做這個立基點來給他們適應的來補助好不好適當的補助好不好好 可以我想我們可以跟他們進行對談再來大家互相再來討論一下"},{"start":10206.141,"end":10213.311,"text":"你們談過了 可是你們沒有去做一個補助或者說明你們談過多少次 你知道嗎 董事長我不知道這個數字好 你知道有沒有在談是有談 為什麼要談 抗議非常大"},{"start":10224.602,"end":10240.591,"text":"我們不希望說影響你們的作業你們在2028年的話就開始要試營運了嘛 對不對如果說你們這方面沒有處理好的話會影響你的作業因為你影響他們的生計他們為了要活下去繼續補育但是餘貨量一直減少"},{"start":10241.571,"end":10260.918,"text":"這是很嚴重的問題我們三接的話今年就會試營運了這第一點第二個有關於漁民這個補償相關的事項我們會再跟他們再繼續溝通所以你們做的是提早了但是影響他們整個漁獲量這部分請董事長這邊你們有去溝通有去開會但是沒有給一個答案去處理"},{"start":10263.246,"end":10272.693,"text":"董事長這邊可以承諾嗎可以承諾你一定要去處理要不然的話到時候他們又在抗爭的話會影響整個作業了好不好好謝謝謝謝林議員謝謝方董事長請鄭正前委員質詢"},{"start":10293.308,"end":10297.832,"text":"謝主席我想先請一下郭部長還有我們方董事長 鍾游還有台湯的吳董事長吳英豪"},{"start":10311.915,"end":10327.334,"text":"謝主席因為今天是針對經濟部的所屬單位的非營業基金還有中油跟台糖的預算剛剛就是聽到部長其實在回應楊松英委員在有關於中鋼他們工會上來抗爭的時候"},{"start":10328.556,"end":10342.451,"text":"剛剛部長特別提到一個覺得說他們那個星達海基他們這邊虧損因為學習曲線不足我覺得這個點我聽到其實某個部分我是覺得正面的就是說坦白說公務體系也必須要有很大的一個學習的部分"},{"start":10343.152,"end":10369.506,"text":"可是在這邊的時候我就想到另外一個問題也是最近經濟部內部碰到就是這九個月來有三個次長離職的問題那我相信很多人也都關心整個經濟部的人事的穩定那因為我出了這部分在請部長回應之前的時候因為我也聽到另外的狀態就是說在經濟部當中據說有所謂的那個薯條三兄弟就是部長知道什麼叫薯條三兄弟嗎"},{"start":10372.346,"end":10389.527,"text":"不知道就是有三個次長跟一級主管他經常站在你的辦公室裡面然後被你訓斥被你罵這樣子所以他們壓力很大我不知道是不是有這樣的一個狀態不過就是說基本上就是說有三個單位那他們的署長就是"},{"start":10390.187,"end":10410.631,"text":"經常還有次長經常就是安苡人罵那某個部分是你要求多啦因為你剛剛在回應那個學習曲線不足的時候我某個部分覺得你進來帶這樣子的一個大的機構某個部分是正面的因為大的機構確實需要有一些不同的刺激那對於次長的那個異動情況這麼頻繁部長你有沒有什麼說明報告委員謝謝你給我這個機會說明我三個次長"},{"start":10417.413,"end":10438.606,"text":"第一個次長是我520上任他6月10號離職他那個是借退了所以他沒有520隨著舊的部會離開因為他是公務人員他是長次所以他等到他退休的時候因為我留任他他講說他有人生的規劃所以他離開了"},{"start":10439.824,"end":10460.472,"text":"那今年12月30日離開的陳正琦次長他也是520的時候要一起離開但是基於我們對國外的這些國安的問題有些條約是要進行我請他留下來幫忙一直到12月31日"},{"start":10462.153,"end":10485.843,"text":"所以這個是我們之間的默契那麼這個也是我們請這個行政院同意的讓他留半年這樣子這是這兩位第三位的次長是我的這個因為這個長賜換了所以我把我們的這個連次長升起來讓他當次長"},{"start":10487.608,"end":10509.363,"text":"那麼在工作上面他當然是沒有問題非常優秀所以我們會讓他當市長那在我們這個半年的過程裡面他也遭受到非常多這個來自於大院的這個壓力我們很多的委員都要求我們要所以立法院給的壓力比你給他壓力更大你意思是這樣子嗎"},{"start":10510.684,"end":10532.822,"text":"我想應該是這樣子那我想說部長這樣回應的時候呢我覺得我也尊重不過我要特別講到一個點就是說因為你畢竟從企業進來帶進一些企業的一個風格那我們也看過過去您在過去當中的時候也出過好幾次的包包括私言不斷的在跟委員致歉的問題比方說菲律賓案的時候呂宋島案"},{"start":10534.884,"end":10554.045,"text":"那我是覺得說從企業到公部門體系當中我希望說能夠有更好的一個轉環然後對於整個公務體系當中我們希望有改變有更好的一個績效因為你剛剛提到另外一個點就是說你覺得台灣智慧電能公司如果中鋼不投資你他們可以隨時撤掉你的意思是這樣子嗎?沒錯OK"},{"start":10554.705,"end":10570.792,"text":"因為他是這個雖然是這個發起者啦但是我們會有這個募資第二次募資的部分第二次募資的時候他就可以退所以你這個部分會很清楚的部分給中鋼他們如果真的就評估覺得不適合投資是可以不要投的OK好謝謝部長"},{"start":10572.633,"end":10592.48,"text":"接下來我想問一下中油的部分因為我們看到中油的部分有投資海勝離岸豐電我想了解一下海勝離岸豐電的時候因為他要投資40億現金然後要融資大概86億元我想問一下當時為什麼中油要去投資海勝當時決策過程是怎麼樣"},{"start":10595.371,"end":10620.314,"text":"報告委員覺得這個過程很單純就是對公司來講我們也算是排碳大幅所以我們也需要綠電同時這個海勝風場這個轉投資公司呢在我們評估下來它是有效益的所以你們覺得是有獲利然後對於中油之後的那個排碳的一個減排的部分是有幫助因為我剛才查了一下中油在過去轉投資當中其實不多"},{"start":10621.054,"end":10648.376,"text":"不多而且金額也都不多包括台灣證交所只有0.79億台船只有7.94億然後另外就是海外就是投資開發公司只有0.52億金額都不大那投資海勝很大那這個部分的時候呢我們就希望說針對這個部分不要變成都是去幫政策買單我們希望是真的對企業有幫助所以剛剛顧部長特別提到說學習曲線不足如果說他們覺得評估"},{"start":10649.457,"end":10666.684,"text":"不是可以不要投我希望企業基本上就能夠更遵照一個商業的一個機制去辦理好不好好 那我接下來要問一個部分就因為石油基金在114年度當中有編列一個電動機車的一個產業環境價值補助的部分那麼針對這個部分有6.78億元那這補助主要在針對電動機車的補助那我想請問一下部長這邊"},{"start":10675.968,"end":10685.042,"text":"目前台灣的電動機車的市占率大概多少然後我們目前的一個市售比大概多少我可不可以請我們產發署可以"},{"start":10688.94,"end":10698.634,"text":"報告委員目前電動機車的保全台電動全台機車的保有量有1465萬輛電動車在截至去年11月有"},{"start":10708.3,"end":10732.221,"text":"因為時間有限你們針對這部分我針對這部分我要特別問的是因為Google的部分因為一直被檢舉它其實國產化不足可是又拿到了我們很多的一個經濟部推動電動機車產業補助這個部分國產化的一個補助那我知道這部分目前還在糾紛當中因為包括Google VIVA這個車款還有JGO這個車款的時候都被檢舉"},{"start":10733.422,"end":10755.98,"text":"他國產化的部分有問題那針對這部分部長這邊有沒有特別的說明是 報告委員我們依法行事針對這個部分因為我覺得看到目前的一個產發署的一個回應的時候我覺得感覺不夠清楚希望事後再給本席針對這個問題更清楚的一個報告檢討的一個報告好不好是的"},{"start":10758.422,"end":10784.474,"text":"好那我最後問台糖這個部分因為台糖的一個金融事業部我問一下就是我們預計就是去年的時候本來可以由負轉正結果還是負的那今年的預算當中的時候呢還比去年在持續的往上增加覺得會越來越好可不可以請台糖董事長這邊做一個簡單的一個說明"},{"start":10788.055,"end":10813.59,"text":"金融事業這個部分可以可以委員報告謝謝是跟委員報告我們金融事業部蝴蝶蘭的部分美國的虧損是最大那為什麼美國虧損最大主要是受到兩個大的因素影響第一個因素就是那個疫情期間造成的影響那第二個是俄烏戰爭之後整個航運的混亂還有這個貨櫃"},{"start":10818.773,"end":10838.965,"text":"謝謝你回應不過這個部分的時候我想特別問的是金融事業部就是去年本來預計要由副轉正沒有達標然後明年的預算的時候還持續看好那我希望你們之後來跟本席做一個很清楚的說明有關於金融事業部在美國加州的分公司的狀態不斷的虧損"},{"start":10841.586,"end":10867.816,"text":"目前虧損的時候呢已經欠了3億8千多萬的虧損然後還欠母公司也是3億多元那我希望針對這個部分因為審計部有要求就是針對美國公司是不是要有一個退場的機制要做一個清楚的判斷那我們請台堂之後在本辦公室一個很清楚的說明針對金融事業這部分的一個發展好 謝謝"},{"start":10877.168,"end":10885.764,"text":"請賴瑞隆委員發言謝謝主席 請郭部長"},{"start":10897.148,"end":10923.5,"text":"部長辛苦了部長委員好我先請教因為大南方新矽谷這個計畫對南方當然相當重要那AMD要在南部設研發中心那我想問一下的是除了台南以外高雄的AMD的部分也有要設研發中心那目前的進度到哪邊了這高雄的AMD應該是跟中山大學的合作對那在今年的第二季要啟用是這樣嗎它因為"},{"start":10926.684,"end":10941.521,"text":"沒關係直接說可以來您說是雅灣的這個在雅灣的啟動對在雅灣區嘛AMD在雅灣要設置高雄的研發中心那在今年的第二季來預定來啟動嗎是這個訊息是正確的是也是經濟部協助來輔導來推動是的好那"},{"start":10948.388,"end":10958.747,"text":"目前的部分照這樣訊息看來有包括像西光子包括高速的封裝設計研發人員那預定會有三四十個人進駐是這樣嗎"},{"start":10960.843,"end":10981.469,"text":"是的是齁好那當然也是跟中山大學還有包括月光包括遠程半導體等合作啦齁也希望那我們希望這樣的速度能夠持續來推動啦齁那也能夠順利的讓台南高雄這兩個大南方的計畫能夠順利來推動是謝謝委員好謝謝部長那再來我也請教一下輝達NVIDIA的在"},{"start":10983.35,"end":10990.057,"text":"內湖當然設了第一座研發中心那第二座的包括它的總部跟研發中心有沒有機會在高雄來設立"},{"start":10995.745,"end":11013.639,"text":"剛剛這個輝達的執行長Jason在美國他有公告說他在今年的六月來台灣的時候那麼會在我們的電腦展來公布落腳台灣的地點跟在怎麼做但是他們實際一直都還在我們國內在調查"},{"start":11016.633,"end":11044.298,"text":"那他主要的考量地點 考量的狀況會是什麼呢他主要考慮的考量狀況他的總部啦 就是第二總部對 應該是說他的總部加研發中心啦 對不對對 研發的部分他是跟這個鴻海在做這個智慧城市對然後那個台北灣因為是落在高雄對 台北灣在高雄嘛所以這個一部分的研發會共同在那個地方所以研發的部分還會繼續在高雄嘛包括第一"},{"start":11045.745,"end":11061.842,"text":"因為他的研究的項目太多了所以他可能會分散那這個部分可能要NVIDIA他們自己這屬於他的商業精密那我問一下部長啦那高雄有沒有機會爭取到這個總部跟研發中心在高雄落腳"},{"start":11065.004,"end":11092.521,"text":"這個我想這個對輝達來講他選項就是我以前經常在講的花若盛開蝴蝶自來那我問一下 環境夠那他應該就會來部長那我問你你也說切出生的啦你覺得高雄的環境具不具備了如果是我個人因為我出生屏東高雄離我最近對所以高雄你認為很有機會啦"},{"start":11094.005,"end":11104.339,"text":"如果是我如果是你 所以從企業家的角度來看是有嘛那我們希望大力的來促成部長如果有機會的話 大力的來促成高雄不管是各種條件別忘了他是台南人"},{"start":11106.161,"end":11134.874,"text":"所以有機會台南高雄對不對那我們希望多整體來促成我們在看因為以我們現在大南方這個這樣的一個環境任何一個投資者應該會選項在這個高雄或者台南這個是就條件來講的話但是其他的其他的地區包括桃園新竹或者台北新北這些都已經成熟的環境"},{"start":11136.081,"end":11155.026,"text":"所以他很重要是他的人才的取得人才的能夠招聘的部分是不是他的角色關鍵我想他會選擇這個研發總部第一個頂尖大學所在地第二個人才能夠順利招聘那"},{"start":11156.46,"end":11185.361,"text":"對他來講齁其實全台灣都適合他為什麼因為他所做的他要做的這個硬體都在台灣的西部啊所以我可以很正確的講就是台灣的西部一定是他選擇落腳的地方博不朗因為青大交大包括中山包括半島理學院等等也都在推動了齁包括這些的市場辦包括台北萬也在高雄我認為其實高雄應該是有相當大的一個機會啦那當然希望部長"},{"start":11186.061,"end":11205.103,"text":"就與公於私都有機會幫忙讓座落在南台灣不管是高雄或台南我認為對於整個台灣的整體均衡發展都是相當有助益的回答因為對我們台灣來講非常非常的重要所以我們第一個原則就是請他務必在台灣能夠建立他第二個營運總號"},{"start":11206.404,"end":11226.676,"text":"我們全力來協助我想水電都充分供應包括廠房甚至包括所有的需要的人才我想經濟部全力來協助經濟部一定全力協助輝達在台灣任何一個地方他只要選擇做為營運總部我們一定全力配合另外輝達的第二算力中心的部分有機會落在高雄嗎"},{"start":11230.109,"end":11256.968,"text":"機率比較高機率高因為第一個台北灣已經有一個那在第二座的話高雄的機率很大而且這個耗電量大高雄電力是充裕的不過這個變數還是有變數還是有這個他跟國科會的這個國科會這一邊的這個配合應該也會蠻多的所以就經濟部的角度來講我只要給他水給他電給他人才"},{"start":11257.688,"end":11276.267,"text":"所以這個是沒有問題部長希望高雄雅灣花若盛開希望紅海蝴蝶自來好不好是的好 再來我請教一下部長大林埔先生上次謝謝部長親自趕到大林埔去鄉親很有感部長親自前往其實很有感那我想要問的現在是進入到了環評跟都市計畫作業的階段"},{"start":11277.668,"end":11303.859,"text":"部長能不能同步啟動 上次其實鄉親們很急啦 已經從林全院長去已經經過9年了 那蘇院長合併也經過5年了能不能盡快的有一些的登記 或者有一些的這個啟動相關的程序呢我想這因為我回來以後啊 有跟這個院長報告我們那天到大林埔 然後鄉親大家所表達的意見那麼我們現在會快速的啟動一些這個讓"},{"start":11306.26,"end":11326.468,"text":"鄉親可以希望的這個模式來進行那內政部的部分我們也跟內政部溝通了是不是內政部也同意把他這些業務移交到經濟部部長能不能今年啟動至少在區塊的選擇讓鄉親們選因為你環評走一走有可能一兩年包括你的那個在後面"},{"start":11327.468,"end":11344.779,"text":"對 那我意思說能不能登記這件事情讓鄉親們早點來做選擇跟登記但登記完你還是有可能會做一些變動但至少你讓鄉親們已經等了這麼多年開始做一些選擇跟登記不要讓他們再等了我們會跟這個委員所指導的這個方向"},{"start":11345.379,"end":11372.851,"text":"我們來加速進行努力在上半年讓大家登記登記完當然不是最後的定案啦但是登記完你才能知道到底多少人需要土地多少人需要拿走現金多少人需要房子那你才能夠規劃你整體到底的狀況也許想像中的跟實際上有落差那你登記完了之後當然還是有部分鄉親會變動但是你經過登記之後你才能全盤了解你整體的一個狀況我認為這個有而且也會讓鄉親更安心說確實已經動起來了不是還停留在這個規劃的階段了"},{"start":11373.991,"end":11391.145,"text":"是 我們朝這個模式來努力那另外剛剛有提到 部長有提到就是說這個相關的一些跟社會住宅的部分我希望跟內政部加速溝通啦如果可以 內政部願意當然更好如果不行 可能請經濟部又自辦 好嗎是"},{"start":11392.886,"end":11415.235,"text":"這個也要盡快來定案因為這個已經都有對外有說明出去這要盡快定案那最後一個是對於市居者在當地的我還是希望部長給予更多的支持啦真正住在那邊長期住在那邊的他們長年以來對忍受空屋忍受一些空安的一些風險那我認為其實真正住在那邊的人給他多一點照顧其實並不過分我希望部長在這一塊再從優從寬來做處理"},{"start":11417.196,"end":11438.19,"text":"是的 報告委員這是我們感同身受啦所以我們會全力以赴我也相信未來如果遷春之後那邊的價值會遠遠多於現在政府所付出的價值而且我相信它有機會創造人民跟政府跟整個產業多贏的一個局面啦那我希望在部長的任內有機會我們把這件事情做一個好的處理是 我們一起努力好 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":11444.315,"end":11460.177,"text":"中午不休息 我們延長開會時間 現在請洪孟凱委員發言主席謝謝 麻煩請郭智慧部長請郭部長"},{"start":11467.892,"end":11489.934,"text":"好 部長好 委員好部長 其實本席一樣也關心今天上午這邊看到揮打的這一個辦公室的一個選址的部分你有回答是說這個黃恩勳董事長他有6月會宣布在哪邊嘛 對不對剛剛聽上一位委員的一個質詢一直強調南台灣那其實北台灣不管是本席所在的新北市"},{"start":11490.555,"end":11504.757,"text":"也有透過經發局也跟輝達這邊來保持密切的聯繫並且我們提供包括說林口的工醫工業區或者是淡水的這個土地也有可能是潛在的機會台北市也說有那"},{"start":11505.859,"end":11529.781,"text":"本時就好奇啊 其實只要輝達能夠跟留台灣啦我想這都是好事啦 對不對那但是在這部分說是不是不要讓各縣市好像變成是大家都要單打獨鬥或者是說大家都要擠破頭那這樣子好像是有你沒我經濟部在這個這一個部分上面可以扮演什麼樣更積極的角色是啊 報告委員我們有跟這個輝達"},{"start":11531.522,"end":11556.284,"text":"表示說經濟部的這些support經濟部可以支援他什麼他希望在台灣落腳以後他有什麼樣的條件那他們也很客氣的回答說他們已經有一組人在台灣各地私下去看私下一直在轉然後最後會提供到美國他的董事會來做決定所以他們也很謝謝經濟部對他們的這個關注"},{"start":11558.746,"end":11582.811,"text":"那我個人所了解的就是說我們在經濟部所了解的就是說那他會選擇什麼地方基本上他大概要三公頃的土地他們的條件開出來大概的條件有開出來三公頃的土地要低度建築他要低度建築他不像我們一般的這個ICT的公司說我要去十樓二十樓他希望三樓"},{"start":11584.051,"end":11609.969,"text":"他三樓 所以他這裡面還是有一些問題就是說他希望那個那個鑑幣率要大一點這些是條件對 這些是公開的一個條件嘛那等於說各縣市現在就變成是說我相信各縣市長也都摩拳霍霍也都拜託下面經發局啦 相關的局處趕快找關係 找管道然後去跟輝達來接觸那這樣搞得好像全台灣各縣市在比武招親啊"},{"start":11612.096,"end":11631.65,"text":"但是這個是揮打自己設下的條件我們也沒有辦法說你一定要怎樣是所以經濟部能不能有一個更明確或說更公平公開的一個資訊來協助各縣市呢還是說這樣子會變成是各縣市來去跟揮打可能揮打可以個別談更有利的條件"},{"start":11632.686,"end":11657.473,"text":"這也許是他的想法他的想法他其實已經進行了一年多了那所以我認為這些事情我們現在就是跟他講請他到哪裡他其實通常也都是謝謝我們的協助部長在這件事情上面本席講當然在商言商沒有辦法 回答他就是現在自首可樂可是我們能不能透過這樣的一個管道即便"},{"start":11658.593,"end":11680.11,"text":"今天揮打落腳在任何一個縣市當然本席希望是說能夠落腳在本席的新北市可是只要落腳在台灣都好可是落腳在台灣之後還有其他縣市在這一次我覺得也很好的點是說這一次很多縣市也都提出非常不錯的地方來吸引國際的知名企業"},{"start":11680.911,"end":11696.104,"text":"那如果說這樣的話經濟部能不能利用這個機會來盤點說到底各縣市有哪些是好用的點那未來可能針對這幾個部分我們經濟部主動去海外來募集或是召集一些高科技企業他們針對這幾個點"},{"start":11697.725,"end":11720.393,"text":"是 你可以理解我意思嗎 譬如說 如果說到時候輝達選定在新北但台北的市北科也不錯啊 高雄剛剛提到的 台南也不錯啊那台南 高雄 台北這幾次所列出來的這些地點是不是可以把它給匯集起來 變成是我們下一次主動出籍去找沒有輝達 那能不能有其他的高科技公司來選擇台灣"},{"start":11721.713,"end":11740.331,"text":"是啊這個報告委員我想我們投資台灣我們有這樣的經濟部有這樣的一個單位那我們會把委員剛剛所指導的這樣的一個條件我們會做成這是一個範本然後給所有投資來台灣投資的特別是AI的部分"},{"start":11740.951,"end":11765.887,"text":"所以我們現在已經有考慮好幾個這個國家的這個比較大的這個土地就像剛才您所說的是四北科或者是今天在新北市其實也有蠻多的地方我們都知道它有10公頃以上的這個地方我們會把這些如果今天是經濟部的產業園區我們就會整個這個把它建築起來然後讓他們直接進來"},{"start":11766.747,"end":11785.392,"text":"那他就是不需要再去買土地蓋廠房讓他們快速的可以進到台灣然後在整個的這個產業裡面產生加值的效果可以讓這些公司知道說來台灣投資是方便快速而且能夠有一條龍的服務完全是這樣"},{"start":11786.192,"end":11807.577,"text":"部長另外一個部分我想今天因為特別有審查到我們明年的這個相關的基金要點我請教一下冬天到了很多人都會想要去這個安排泡湯行程那你知道如果說在台灣安排這個溫泉泡湯的話溫泉的好溫泉的美應該要是誰來負責去宣傳"},{"start":11808.637,"end":11825.666,"text":"這應該是屬於我們如果對國外的人的宣傳是我們大概會透過外貿協會來建構這樣的一個廣宣的機制是由我們國貿署來主導那如果是國內的應該是我們商業發展署所會"},{"start":11827.927,"end":11853.143,"text":"對這樣來推廣但是現在因為這一部分因為都屬於各個地方所以他們的地方的特色現在是有國發會他們在推動一個地方創生所以我們現在都有在討論也謝謝委員的提示這個部分我們將會形成地方的特色所以在花蓮也好 台東也好 宜蘭也好"},{"start":11854.245,"end":11876.782,"text":"這都是我們的溫泉還有苗栗這些都是我們溫泉所擁有溫泉的地方那這個是我們的特色之一是部長這是我們的特色其實它也沒有那麼的大沒有說一定要國發會這邊來做因為為什麼我會特別提到說溫泉是要誰來宣傳就是因為溫泉是我們經濟部相關的一個管轄"},{"start":11877.683,"end":11905.388,"text":"我們經濟部有掌管水資源作業基金裡面就有針對溫泉這邊來讓經濟部可以跟地方政府收錢是的是啊那但是今天我們總共收入明年有95億而相關的一個經費或說相關的一個運用的部分但我們一直沒有看到說比較積極的去辦理跟地方政府來合作或說跟地方政府來結合或者是說跟觀光"},{"start":11906.989,"end":11926.411,"text":"來做一個結合各縣各部會單打獨鬥真的是已經過去了我們如果說連我們把集中資源要宣傳一個都不容易那更何況是現在各部會單打獨鬥來 部長是 謝謝委員的指導剛才所講的這個錢呢基本上是我們維護"},{"start":11928.433,"end":11941.628,"text":"維護這個溫泉的所需要的費用當然我想您剛才的指導之後我們會再回來再檢討然後把這個資源能夠能夠集中然後來服務所有的國人資源在你這邊啊"},{"start":11942.609,"end":11962.41,"text":"那這樣子我現在是不是說幾個有溫泉的部分像本席的新北市我們也有這個溫泉啊金山的溫泉也好或者說我們這個相關的這些溫泉其實也都是非常有名大家也都會了解能不能有比較具體的做法跟縣市還是跟觀光"},{"start":11963.351,"end":11980.061,"text":"能夠怎麼樣來結合來去做一個推動好的我們回去馬上檢討那馬上希望能夠推出第一波能夠趕在這個寒假這個新年假期啊就可以做一點這個基本的這個廣宣好非常好那什麼時候可以給本席相關的資料"},{"start":11984.402,"end":12003.013,"text":"兩個禮拜兩個禮拜內是告訴本席說你們要怎麼樣來推廣至少讓今年尤其今年相對來講是寒冬啊是冬天比較冷大家就想到溫泉讓溫泉可以變成是大家的一個DNA讓更多人知道台灣好的溫泉是好不好是兩個禮拜本席等您報告好的請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":12020.42,"end":12039.079,"text":"好謝謝趙偉那我們請這個台糖公司董事長吳明昌董事長謝謝董事長好"},{"start":12040.393,"end":12056.236,"text":"委員好 董事長在今天的這個經營概括跟營業預算報告裡面您提到說台糖會配合所謂的政府的這個社福的政策來提供相關的土地嘛那在過去這些年裡面不管是針對這個長照式的住宿式長照機構也好"},{"start":12057.137,"end":12072.297,"text":"還是針對這個社會住宅也好都有提供蠻多的土地那我想問一下董事長這個提供土地部分你們是配合呢還是你們會主動的釋出盤點出這個閒置用地給地方政府來或是給電政部來使用以社宅為例的話"},{"start":12073.983,"end":12092.263,"text":"跟委員報告我們是盤點出來然後給那個地方政府或是中央政府需要的來篩選所以如果有在這個市中心金華區的部分你們提供了盤點出來的土地就讓可能內政部也好或地方政府來決定要怎麼樣來使用嘛是不是這樣子"},{"start":12093.351,"end":12112.538,"text":"大概是這樣 對再來這個社福完之後你的這個報告裡面有提到說同時也會配合能源政策優先的以閒置土地活化跟複合式利用的方式來規劃太陽能板的光電設施那我要問的是說在公司經營策略上面提供社福土地"},{"start":12113.718,"end":12126.189,"text":"跟提供這個設宅的這個新辦基地還有跟這個提供能源政策的這個設置太陽光電板的這幾個順位上面在市中心的話請問一下台南公司的策略會以什麼樣的策略為主這個是不是"},{"start":12133.496,"end":12151.935,"text":"如果是社會住宅或是說社福的這個這個設施的話因為要考慮到整個人口還有整個交通的所以會集中在市中心那如果是這個再生能源的話那我們目前的做法就是說比如說"},{"start":12152.535,"end":12176.188,"text":"跟這個地方政府他有這個制洪池的話我們就是水面的這個光電或是說我們各個建築物的這個屋頂型的這個太陽能板等等那個就不會比較會離開因為一部分的居民他還沒有辦法完全的這個接受這個就是會跟這個社宅或是說社福的設施會有一個地點的一個區隔"},{"start":12177.264,"end":12206.09,"text":"好 謝謝總經理那接下來剛剛因為你們剛剛提到政策當然如果是在為了提供可能社宅以後長照機可能要選擇市中心是交通比較方便的地方那就是因為你們有這個政策你們剛好這樣回應了所以我要提出一個個案當然台中這邊在這個台中的這個北屯區有一塊很完整的這個用地660多坪在市中心在捷運站旁邊那現階段你們是提供停車場來使用那後來最近有公告說要來蓋光電板"},{"start":12206.77,"end":12229.293,"text":"那這個土地分區呢它是第三種住宅區那我想我們都知道在市區的第三種住宅區啊它相對來講它的土地是比較利用價值比較高的那如果能夠來蓋社宅或是能夠來蓋這個社福機構我想對周邊的住戶來講它的使用會比較方便那如果你單純只使用這個用來只蓋光電板的話不覺得有點浪費嗎不知道台南的公司怎麼看待這個事情"},{"start":12230.094,"end":12253.63,"text":"我這邊跟委員報告一下我們那塊地是因為那個地方有停車的這個需求非常的強烈那我們這個得標的業者他主要是要做這個停車場他只是就是說他的車棚上面他會去裝設太陽能板他並不是說是為了以太陽能板為主是以停車需求為主我知道"},{"start":12254.45,"end":12269.9,"text":"來但是我現在還是要回到這公司你今天你是這個公司的角度來看嗎到底是出租給停車場來使用來蓋光電板對公司效益比較高呢還是說提供剛剛提到的不管是提供政府來提供社福土地或是來該社會住宅或是其他用途嗎因為今天"},{"start":12270.62,"end":12285.86,"text":"你如果蓋社福土地你去做長照機構也好或去做社會助長也好或做其他設施也好你的屋頂你一樣可以使用光電板了我沒有反對這件事情啊我今天講的是說今天這麼好的一個土地的區位它就在台中市的市中心結果呢"},{"start":12286.801,"end":12303.461,"text":"它是住宅用地喔 它也不是什麼農地 也不是什麼其他的用地它就是正住宅用地 而且在大馬路旁邊那結果你們台南公司這塊用地的使用方式這麼多年下來就只提供停車場 然後接下來蓋光電板那不就浪費了你們公司在資產運用上的這個效益了嗎"},{"start":12304.082,"end":12327.417,"text":"我想問的是說,而且在蓋這個光電板之前,我想地方上,不管是地方政府也好,或是里長也好,或周邊居民也好,他們其實事前,尤其是當地的居民,他們覺得說這個土地我們希望能夠有更有效的利用,因為那是一個市中心,難而有一個這麼完整空白的土地可以來使用,結果如果你們只用來蓋光電板跟停車場,不覺得很浪費嗎?"},{"start":12331.08,"end":12344.285,"text":"所以我們在辦這塊土地的標諸的時候我們是採取一個短期的一個標諸的一個期間短期是多久?是五年五年後是不是優先承租權一樣同樣業者?"},{"start":12347.194,"end":12363.269,"text":"我們5年之後假設說這個有這個社宅或是說社福的需求的話我們就會收回來了好這個時間也到了那我後續再請臺灣公司再跟我們辦公室來回報一下到底這後續要怎麼處理好不好好謝謝委員請邱志偉委員發言"},{"start":12381.657,"end":12396.525,"text":"謝謝主席 請台堂總經理跟董事長請吳董事長跟我們的陳總經理哇 今天5加1喔 5加1只有360秒來 這個董事長剛上任我想我先問總經理這個有機米"},{"start":12408.334,"end":12431.796,"text":"董事長你先休息一下因為你剛上面有機米現在台北市啊中小學都供應做營養午餐都是台南有機米你要把它擴展到全國啊高雄市啊台南市台中市都要用你們有機米那麼好的品質台北市都用了你們有沒有什麼計畫是是謝謝委員那委員講的也是我們所想的就是說你還走啊"},{"start":12433.489,"end":12445.218,"text":"你打入台北市那其他的縣市其他的都要去是我們會後續我們會一個月給我這個相關你們規劃報告那個台塘土地啊"},{"start":12446.658,"end":12463.084,"text":"這個土地多很容易被這個非法侵盜這個部分你們有沒有什麼方案目前有沒有相關統計說你們監管機制要如何去強化那你現在你們土地有多少被非法這個這個侵盜廢棄物有沒有相關數據包委員那我們"},{"start":12467.987,"end":12493.122,"text":"在這兩三年以來我們大幅的去加強我們土地巡查的相關的一個作業的一個機制以及我們在比較我們也篩選出來一些所謂的我們認為高風險的一個地區如果發現不法有沒有提告有你要積極作為要把你們土地管理好不要變成廢棄物的天堂"},{"start":12495.354,"end":12516.123,"text":"這個部分我提醒你把這個問題做徹底解決另外我告訴你們這個廠房停工損失包括你的土地稅會損失很多土地利用改善你們要加強去監理你知道我在說什麼嗎知道有些廠房停工已經到34年你要怎麼樣讓你的停工廠房去活化再利用"},{"start":12516.983,"end":12534.56,"text":"不要因為這個相關稅金所持那麼多這部分再請台東再去了解因為董事長剛剛上任我把問題點出來下一位請忠祐董事長跟總經理請方董事長跟張總經理兩位請回座"},{"start":12544.952,"end":12559.956,"text":"青能車上路全球已經有上萬輛青能車那現在台灣還是沒有任何的加薪站本來在高雄要設所作的加薪站你目前的規劃是延到什麼時候"},{"start":12561.133,"end":12575.576,"text":"跟委員報告嘉青站現在已經機械完工了那麼在這個月10號我們會遞件申請使用執照那麼當中同步在進行一些系統上的測試在進行中預計我們應該第二季應該可以取得使用我們落後太多了"},{"start":12576.417,"end":12600.313,"text":"就是說跟國際的氫能的這個發展我們已經落後太多你如果沒有這個未來以後全部用氫能你沒有一個加氣站怎麼辦這是很大的問題所以我希望你們是不是能夠三個月之內你們為了要趕上全球氫能運輸的發展你們提出三個月的三個月之內提出中長期的政策規劃是謝謝另外你們海管我們現在要蓋海管"},{"start":12602.153,"end":12624.785,"text":"這個中國啊 這個無所不用其破壞台灣的安定 破壞能源安全台灣的海嵐 你們現在也要蓋這個相關的海嵐永安 永安到通宵 第二條的海底運輸 通宵到大潭所以未來如果蓋成之後 如何要加強防範這你們有什麼想法 相關的想法嗎是 我們先從"},{"start":12626.266,"end":12645.271,"text":"海管本質上海管本身它是埋在海底下面0.5到1公尺之間同時這個海管本身它有鋼筋混凝土去保護所以它沒辦法破壞可以破壞但是它有相當的保護這第一點第二個如果說它走的路徑要跨過那個海欄的話"},{"start":12648.012,"end":12666.241,"text":"那在相关的施作上也有一些标准的规范会去制作按照规范来去实施比如说电缆在下面的话它先会铺一个垫子在上面然后海管走在上面之后铺一些碎石石头去把它保护起来"},{"start":12666.861,"end":12695.982,"text":"是啦 我是說這個點出這個問題你們未來鋪要設海管的部分這個輸氣管很重要不能讓它斷氣對不對所以輸氣管很重要如果被它破壞它如果真的要做它可能可不可以做得到報告委員這個是可能是國防的議題我太專業我沒辦法回答你但是防護是你的是你的工作嘛你要確保讓它沒有辦法破壞你的這個這個海管嘛對不對所以這部分你"},{"start":12697.028,"end":12716.163,"text":"未來要很多的這個書記管這部分你要做最大的努力讓他確保不會有任何被破壞的狀況好試試我們研議好最後60秒來請各位請回請這個部長跟那個能源署署長請郭部長游署長我現在在質詢的都精準質詢的好"},{"start":12722.117,"end":12738.888,"text":"新達電廠的核聚合種,我已經講太多次了新達海基,這幾年繞了六、七十年就此停頓下來解散,還是未來你川普2.0他全球離岸封建政策會改變"},{"start":12741.82,"end":12764.79,"text":"不希望在美國蓋離岸封建所以離岸封建會回到歐亞這個部分會降低他的成本未來興大海基有沒有機會興大海基因為我們不是把這個公司結束掉我們只是說他他現在是維持嘛那他既有的這個員工跟既有的這個技術已經成長的這個技術我們會開拓到他可以發展的這個地方所以他不會解散"},{"start":12766.274,"end":12783.269,"text":"他不會倒閉他不會倒閉啦我們現在正在研擬如果幫助他展開你要繼續成長你要繼續讓他營業你要投入更多的資金欸不是我們會跟他就是說因為現在台灣還是有很多的這個這個需求嘛"},{"start":12783.829,"end":12783.989,"text":"請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":12819.678,"end":12845.736,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請經濟部部長台堂董事長請郭部長 請吳董事長兩位好在審查其實是去年台堂的預算的時候我就很清楚的點出來了台堂前董事長吳乃仁"},{"start":12848.697,"end":12871.673,"text":"賤賣台塘的土地導致國家虧損一億多元這個被判刑確定了啦這被判刑確定了啦即使我們的總統賴清德用政治生命幫無乃人掛保證即使民進黨立院黨團的幹事長吳思瑤說無乃人是在做黑勞"},{"start":12873.968,"end":12899.08,"text":"對不起不是黑老是冤獄啊說誰是背後的黑手都沒有辦法改變一個事實啊第一個判刑確定判刑確定關出來就好欠國家的錢啊現在追查的進度到底是什麼來看一下到目前為止還欠一億七千一百四十六萬來請董事長我講了數了對不對"},{"start":12904.252,"end":12927.485,"text":"上來用麥克風講 這樣才會進入立法院公報所有在關心的人 才聽得到你的聲音是 委員最近有沒有還最近 我們有透過相關的法律程序 但是查不到他的錢查不到他的錢 那奇怪了 你們有沒有去追蹤他現在出入都做B&W 你們知不知道大七系列的B&W 你知道嗎"},{"start":12932.093,"end":12949.154,"text":"我們今年12月9號有在跟法院申請執行然後呢因為在法院的成績下他沒有錢沒有存款所以我們也拿不到錢沒有錢沒有存款就算了喔"},{"start":12949.758,"end":12968.284,"text":"我們有透過法例的程序什麼程序講清楚啦透過強制執行法第幾條的什麼程序幹了什麼事情講清楚啦跟委員報告7.12.9號我們向法院遞狀申請再以強制執行依強制執行法第19條的規定"},{"start":12969.984,"end":12983.735,"text":"申請查掉債務人、無難人等私人資財產狀況向中華民國聯手保險商業同業工會中華郵政台灣集中保管"},{"start":12985.167,"end":13002.844,"text":"結算所股份有限公司及勞動部勞工保險及查刑以及請求法案依強制執行法第20條規定定期間令無乃人等事人即時報告財產狀況以立強制執行好 無乃人有沒有報告財產狀況"},{"start":13005.544,"end":13018.376,"text":"你跟法院申請嘛你一到強制執行法20條的規定嘛跟法院申請要求債務人報告他的財產狀況嘛法院有沒有命無奶人報告財產狀況還沒有通知為什麼還沒有通知"},{"start":13022.846,"end":13043.333,"text":"這就是要你們台堂去追的嘛對 我們會繼續人民很憤怒 納稅人很憤怒但所有的權力都在你們台堂手上嘛因為只有你們是資格的債權人嘛大家都在看啊說吳奶奶沒有錢進出座B&W大漆系列"},{"start":13044.403,"end":13061.868,"text":"晚上去海峽會吃高檔的料理海峽會你有去過嗎?我沒有你沒有去過?我不知道你檔事長耶你的檔次去海峽會應該剛好啦我沒有啦很熟啦政商關係很好的店啦出入都是立法委員啦"},{"start":13063.021,"end":13088.427,"text":"都是達官貴族啊 那很貴的啦很好 保持你的本性啊保持你的本性啊 我給你鼓勵啊我為什麼提啊 納稅人看不下去嘛做B&W 晚上去高檔的料理旁邊還有辣妹做賠然後這樣的人沒有錢賠國家"},{"start":13090.461,"end":13119.589,"text":"是台塘帶墮還是台北地方法院執行處放水依照強制執行法20條的規定命債務人報告財產狀況沒有據實報告法律效果是什麼董事長知不知道報告委員這個我不太曉得但是沒關係我跟你講啊依法管收依法管收台灣是法治國家強制執行法怎麼規定白紙黑字啊寫得非常的清楚啊"},{"start":13121.018,"end":13145.366,"text":"台灣還有沒有公平正義啊有權有勢的人判刑確定只要總統出來掛保證有沒有積極追討錢不用還國家喔還是連台北地方法院民事執行處的法官都在放水全民都在看啊全民都在看啊請台湯齁適時的公佈你們追討的狀況"},{"start":13149.365,"end":13163.598,"text":"適時的公布追討的狀況 你們今天給台北地方法院的申請函台北地方法院到目前為止都沒回覆是嗎我這樣講好了啦 簡單來講你們有沒有盡責做到你們的工作 我要一個最基本的資料你們強制執勤的申請狀"},{"start":13173.417,"end":13192.907,"text":"以及法院回應你們強制執行的申請狀的裁定書面都給我可以嗎書面都給我這樣我才知道怎麼追究責任嘛不要你一個新的董事長你明明很困難很怕病是台北地院的錯那我當然去追嘛"},{"start":13194.248,"end":13200.737,"text":"這樣可以嗎好我回去會請我們的法務跟我們的律師在這件事情好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":13220.206,"end":13232.117,"text":"請何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳委員不在請羅志強 羅志強 羅志強委員不在請鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在請蔡易瑜委員發言"},{"start":13247.179,"end":13257.331,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們是有請經濟部部長請郭部長那能源署署長也也一樣請優署長好"},{"start":13258.348,"end":13286.421,"text":"來部長部長因為我們現在政策有在講這個節能那事實上我也看到了說最近在討論這個節能也把它分為三個階段那第一個階段是建立ASCO的一個執行模式然後第二階段公營事業的導入第三階段才要擴散至民營事業那我現在想要請教部長我們現在要建立ASCO的一個執行模式那也就是說"},{"start":13287.481,"end":13306.496,"text":"這個Xcode他大概就是一個租賃的一個概念那未來就是說我們使用了可能一些設備上的更新那用節能的效力來設算說我們要怎麼跟這個提供設備的廠商他的價格所以他是一個比較新的一個概念那我"},{"start":13307.917,"end":13334.283,"text":"問的就是說我們現在要建立這樣的一個exco的一個執行模式的話那我們是不是有足夠的數據足以支撐我們到底未來節能的效益是多少因為這一個話他是強調的他是數據的真實性假如數據勒是有問題的或者是這個數據是錯誤的就會造成我們之後跟這些廠商他們的價格的計算上就會有落差"},{"start":13335.263,"end":13350.679,"text":"那這樣的話就會讓我們這個節能的一個這樣的一個方向真的就會糟蹋了所以部長我現在想要請教的就是說那我們現在到底是由誰來做價格的節能效率的擬定"},{"start":13351.584,"end":13378.746,"text":"好 這個部長可以說明一下嗎是 報告員 這個部分我們會先建立這個量測驗證的這個制度那麼先做出一個標準就好像我們在檢查身體一樣去檢查一個公司 去檢查一個事業那它哪個地方有問題那必須要這個產生的這個能量用的能量比較多 產生的碳比較多的地方我們要幫助它減碳"},{"start":13379.767,"end":13408.869,"text":"然後我們大概發三個方向第一個就是檢查它的照明第二個檢查它的這個空調的能耗再來就是它的動力的能耗包括照明空調跟動力嘛這個都是高耗電耗電就等於會增加碳嘛然後我們會有建議就是說在換的過程裡面有建議一些廠商這些廠商是經過我們標準局選定的它是最有能效的"},{"start":13409.429,"end":13437.512,"text":"然後這個價格是公告在上面的就是我們會公告然後讓他們自己選項我們不是只有一家廠商我們跟很多的家廠商在上面給這個做exco的公司啊他就可以選擇因為我們如果能夠集中幾個廠牌他因為數量大他的成本就可以降低這個是我們的目的所以我們先把標準建立先把標準建立然後再去衡量他然後再建議他怎麼改"},{"start":13437.992,"end":13464.412,"text":"然後在改的時候我們又幫助他可以買到比較成本低的這個效果高的這些商品好就是說部長大概我可以理解你剛剛講的一個方式啦但是我們在做Exco射算的時候究竟我們是用我們這間辦公室整體的耗電那跟我用Exco我把它做這些"},{"start":13465.812,"end":13492.439,"text":"燈具啦空調的改換之後然後耗電然後是做這樣的比的落差的比還是用單一產品這支電費它的耗電是怎樣未來我把它換成其他的東西它的耗電是怎樣是單一產品的比較後再把它放大然後再精算還是它是用整個的數據的精算這個不知道喔"},{"start":13492.859,"end":13514.184,"text":"在衡量的時候在檢測的時候應該就是整個空間所產生的這些能耗通通計算那如果折舊的部分呢因為這個電器如果用久了它的耗損率會提高耗損率提高自然它就相對更加耗能了所以我們建議它越快換越好"},{"start":13518.482,"end":13542.15,"text":"這個數據很重要我不希望我們這樣一個好的一個方向那我們這個可以想像未來政府也會投入不少因為要做EXCO然後等於是很多設備的更換那我不希望在這個更換的過程中造成不必要的浪費好不好是的好那我再問第二個是不是請我們水利署那能源署可以先請賴署長賴署長"},{"start":13545.928,"end":13574.106,"text":"來 部長跟署長我現在比較在意我們今年度要執行外省鼎州的固殺那我們的計畫是怎樣今年度外省鼎州的部分過去跟公司協力合作的有成效那我們今年除了延續過去公司協力在做這些所謂的柯架在做柔性的工法之外那我也請同仁去研究是不是跟我們柯農"},{"start":13575.667,"end":13596.307,"text":"來大家來討論一下主持人我直接時間因為比較少齁我直接跟你講一些我在地方看到的齁因為外省頂州咧我們之前在做這些公司協力然後做這一些用磕棚去做固紗對不對前幾年沒紅胎啦今年就有磕棚了今年就紅胎啊看起來這一個紅胎"},{"start":13598.94,"end":13621.513,"text":"過去我們做的那一些那些客家去那邊動海浪的破壞的很多所以可以基本上那個大自然的力量就這麼強所以我認為說我們在如果沒有一些變通我們一樣是每年去這些公司協力然後這些客家那邊去那邊用反不及急啦"},{"start":13622.606,"end":13650.975,"text":"外産頂桌這個消失的速度真的是非常的快那一旦外産頂桌消失了後裡面的那些養科的產業每年40億的產值也會跟著全軍覆沒所以外産頂桌是很重要的那我們現在實施固殺計畫到目前已經第三年了前兩年效果有出來因為前兩年沒有紅胎那今年獨立紅胎哇 馬上就面臨這兩年的努力被破壞蠻多的所以我們現在要思考的"},{"start":13652.755,"end":13672.186,"text":"署長我還是具體講,我從之前就跟你們說,我們可能要用抽砂要用抽砂,有的塞平的沙,抽去往沙頂丟,然後在歪山頂周的中間製造一個中央山脈就是在那裏要做一個高牆,你還硬打過,這個山脈把它擋住,不要讓它硬抓,把沙都戳下來"},{"start":13678.423,"end":13694.313,"text":"就是說一定要有一個管的地方,不然它這樣在裡面,它就是一直刷一直流下去然後就一直流到東石,然後就會變成整個東石是內陸化東石的外海內陸化,那就是現在我們在講我們擔心的未來整個這個養科的產業會消滅"},{"start":13697.02,"end":13716.733,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在做的方向就是委員所說的過去公司協力我們還沒有在抽殺過去公司協力這個是基本的未來複合性的加強性的抽殺的這個部分一定要做這個效果才會好但是這個要跟地方大家一起來溝通沒問題沒問題該溝通我一定會協助溝通那我想這個應該要來做因為公司協力還是要繼續嘛那是一個在海岸下的一個基礎的東西"},{"start":13727.1,"end":13750.152,"text":"但是我們現在開心的是因為黑硬要一直在外産地都一直打進來所以我們一定要一直動在黑硬一直動在這裡不要讓那個力量繼續延伸然後把整個沙都往內陸帶進來好不好我覺得我們這一些工法上要怎麼做是有效率的我們就要緊貼著不能再做光旺的一個態度了好不好謝謝"},{"start":13759.947,"end":13765.848,"text":"請翁曉琳 翁曉琳 翁曉琳委員不在 請賴思寶賴思寶 賴思寶委員不在 請葉延芝委員發言麻煩請經營部長 謝謝 請郭部長"},{"start":13794.476,"end":13817.552,"text":"部長好 因為您上任之後短短的幾個月 三個次長都陸陸續續要退休嘛有的是已經退休 像林全仁 陳振祺 那接下來連錦璋都要退休那我早上看到您回答其他委員的說法是說都是立法院給的壓力太大了 所以他們退休嘛那為什麼立法院就只有給他們壓力 其他的部為什麼都沒有這個問題"},{"start":13818.834,"end":13847.088,"text":"因為他還沒有到達退休年齡所以是只要其他部的次長有到達退休年齡那因為承受不了大院給的壓力所以就會退休不一定啦我的意思是說他到達退休年齡他可以選擇未來是不是繼續在這個環境裡面去努力或者他可以選擇他的第二村那他為什麼不願意留在這個地方努力因為大院給的壓力太大"},{"start":13847.628,"end":13852.476,"text":"所以都是立法委員的問題我沒有說是立法委員的問題啊你說是立法委員給壓力啊"},{"start":13857.165,"end":13881.747,"text":"我是說這個環境給我們的壓力環境給你們壓力但是環境壓力然後走的都是次長我是覺得部長你應該思考一下因為這個次長我的第一任次長是借領退了這個跟我有沒有接這個是沒有關係的那另外兩個呢第二個也是啊他本來也要在520就退了是我把他留下來因為我剛到這個"},{"start":13886.207,"end":13904.542,"text":"第三個連市長他非常優秀他也做了但他身體開始有一些因為這個狀況為什麼會被拿來討論這是很罕見非常罕見之前我問行政秘書長的時候他說他做公務員這麼久也沒有看過這樣的狀況"},{"start":13905.717,"end":13934.427,"text":"就是一個部長上任幾個月下面全部都退休我想這個就是會引起委員的關注就是無巧不成書嘛對啊 這個很巧啦對啦這位部長沒關係因為你可能覺得自己很棒跟你沒問題所以說是立法委員壓力很大我覺得人才的流失其實對國家都是損失啦如果說您可以多盡一分心力說不定這些人才可以留住好不好然後接下來跟你問一些不同的議題啦像"},{"start":13935.047,"end":13956.265,"text":"因為我們早上也有看到別的委員有跟你請教就是說中鋼現在配合經濟部的政策投資了台智電或者是台智能講法不一樣那部長您的說法是說如果你覺得中鋼沒有跟工會談好的話你就會請中鋼退出是這個意思嗎我不知道有沒有聽錯"},{"start":13956.986,"end":13974.483,"text":"我的意思就是說如果他沒有得到工會的支持沒有得到同仁的支持那他硬來投資我覺得也沒有那個意義啊但是代表說經濟部對於中鋼是有影響力的嘛沒有影響力你怎麼會叫他退就退一定是有影響力他才會退啊NO"},{"start":13975.043,"end":13990.353,"text":"不是這樣子那你怎麼叫他退我還是建議他你建議他我沒有命令他我是建議他你建議他他可以不理你就對但是我們來看一下中鋼的股權的結構好不好經濟部在中鋼裡面都佔了大概20%嘛"},{"start":13991.913,"end":14004.332,"text":"實際上是最大關股是有影響力的但我們今天在這邊提醒部長是說經濟部在做任何的決策的時候其實都會影響到小股東小股東是多少人小股東是100多萬人"},{"start":14006.189,"end":14026.139,"text":"所以他不是只有要配合經濟部的政策的問題啊而是說你也要兼顧到一百多萬小股東的權益啊是 完全同意這個委員的指教啊對 所以如果說部長您的意思是你可以建議他那我相信你建議他因為你又是他的最大股幾乎就是可以做這個決策啦"},{"start":14026.779,"end":14049.588,"text":"所以未來要考慮其他80%的股東啊沒有沒有一定是你們可以你如果講說你們要影響我就聽不下去了啊現在連那個董事長都是官派的你影響不了我們只有兩席是官派的兩席我們只有兩席我們沒有辦法影響他我們只能建議他我覺得大家不會相信你的說法其實你是可以"},{"start":14050.228,"end":14073.453,"text":"可以叫他做這個事沒有然後再來我跟你請教一下為什麼每一次配合經濟部政策都是中鋼啊之前是中鋼要配合然後去投資那個星達海基後來賠了64億然後現在中鋼又要去處理這個做一個那個購電平台台灣難道沒有其他的有賺錢的國營事業可以做這個事嗎為什麼都是中鋼啊"},{"start":14075.155,"end":14097.39,"text":"這個是因為他有綠電需求中鋼本人那其他的其他大企業有沒有綠電需求有他們是股東對所以意思是說因為中鋼有綠電需求所以你乾脆你就乾脆就上下游整合你來做這個綠電的是這個意思嗎是的是喔那沒有其他條件喔沒有符合其他條件企業只有中鋼可以"},{"start":14098.519,"end":14121.464,"text":"其他的有綠電需求我們都歡迎他加入啊那再跟你請教一下因為早上我有看到你提到那個輝達要在台灣設廠嘛那經濟部幫他找土地嗎沒有沒有沒有他們自己找土地所以經濟部有要協助嗎經濟部只是幫助他們水電人然後土地他自己找"},{"start":14122.52,"end":14132.46,"text":"他說他要自己找那他找哪個地你再去找那個地的水跟電是不是我們大概基本上啊在整個在規劃的過程裡面"},{"start":14134.949,"end":14159.176,"text":"我們每一個縣市都會有充分的水跟電所以我們在這個桃竹苗大溪谷跟我們南方大溪谷嘉南高坪通通是完整的這個供給給他們水跟電所以他可以就這一部分來所以你有確定他不管選擇台灣的哪個縣市我們的電是絕對無虞的"},{"start":14160.716,"end":14181.367,"text":"我們也不會說像以前好像台電講的如果哪個縣市沒有辦法自己供電的話就不發展那個產業這個可能都是大家在溝通上面有一點誤解怎麼都是大家有問題不是 大家在溝通上面有誤解那所以實際上是怎樣實際上就是滿足所有的反正只要產業落腳在哪個縣市我們都會滿足就對 是這個意思是的那所以"},{"start":14188.917,"end":14209.232,"text":"部長就是確定但是你不知道哪裡但是我是希望部長如果你有土地建議的話可以考慮一下我們北部因為我們剛剛講到興達海基後來有一個它虧損的原因部長您有提到因為它在興達漁港吃水不夠可是那個時候為什麼會選擇在興達漁港難道你要選擇做封店的時候你不會去研究它的水有多深嗎"},{"start":14210.413,"end":14232.203,"text":"所以這是不是高雄市政府當時其實非常歡迎新大海基過去不是 那個時候的環境是可以的但是現在的大型的風電改變太多了不是啊 那你投資你你投資你不會去評估說未來的環境有沒有可能改變你就直接投資幾十億下去喔這個投資也太草率了吧這個也是我們應該要檢討的部分"},{"start":14232.743,"end":14241.898,"text":"為什麼他們會這麼草率所以那時候是不是高雄市政府要求他去所以他們就必須要去我真的不太相信中鋼的投資有這麼短淺啊"},{"start":14243.479,"end":14266.274,"text":"我真的不相信啦而且那個東西不是很難的評估嘛這個漁港到底吃水多深可不可以做這個做這個產業怎麼可能會評估不了因為這個是一個新的產業啦所以他的這個變化大概大家在經驗經驗的這個這個領域裡面大概比較缺是那學費也交太多了吧是是是謝謝謝謝委員的指導謝謝好"},{"start":14272.298,"end":14288.855,"text":"部長 桃園有機場 港口 水庫 還有大潭電廠所以還有龍科三期正在開發所以請部長要看看我們桃園 很適合回答台積電都歡迎 歡迎是 謝謝 謝謝"},{"start":14296.65,"end":14314.669,"text":"发言登记的委员除了不在场外其余的已经发言完毕询答结束有罗志强陈超明翁晓琳委员所提的书面质询列入记录刊登公报书面质询和位及答复的部分请相关单位于一周内"},{"start":14315.109,"end":14335.277,"text":"以书面答复并赴资本会本日讨论四项所列议案询答结束针对预算案委员所提的修正动议或者相关提案已会诊完成明天早上9点继续开会进行审查现在休息"},{"start":14342.984,"end":14344.706,"text":"我確定 確定自己來開心家操囉"},{"start":14424.428,"end":14425.009,"text":"优优独播剧场——YoYo Television Series Exclusive"}]}},{"id":"16455","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16455","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2dda3b4720c362bf969b5fa2f296a93534529fa0cca45d5627d15d8e025481c3525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-01-08T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期外交及國防委員會第25次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金：（處理） 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中其實又分成兩段的不同會議第一段我們處理僑委會的基金第二段處理國防部所屬的基金所以我們在每個基金的處理完"},{"start":2005.64,"end":2018.498,"text":"完整之後再移動到下一個那國防部的同仁可能就比較辛苦一點我們要等教會處理完我們就接續下去我們不用再空下時間來那我們現在先請議事人員宣讀討論事項"},{"start":2020.954,"end":2045.608,"text":"討論事項 一繼續審查一百一十四年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑務委員會主管信託基金一 裝手跟公益基金二 受理捐贈僑生獎助學金及監控地區僑民學校師資輔助基金二 繼續審查一百一十四年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於國防部主管非營業基金一 作業基金一 國軍生產及服務作業基金"},{"start":2048.71,"end":2075.999,"text":"二 國軍老舊眷村改建基金三 國防醫學院軍事教育基金二 資本計劃基金國軍營設及設施改建基金宣讀完畢好 我們先介紹現在已經到場的委員我們陳永康委員 請坐 請坐羅美玲委員 沈伯陽委員今天列席的官員我們第一部分僑友會是由委員長徐家青"},{"start":2078.53,"end":2102.88,"text":"主委張良明喬教處處長林紀榮喬生處處長王怡如主計事主任林秀燕因為我們待會要下到場面下直接處理預算所以我就我們就不會再回到上面來我一定把列席的官員一併介紹了國防部部長顧立雄"},{"start":2105.152,"end":2133.093,"text":"這是國防部基金處理的部分那楊基隆長室參事石文榮政務辦公室主任陳道輝政案局局長陳玉玲軍備局局長林文祥主計局局長謝其賢軍醫局局長蔡建松"},{"start":2135.427,"end":2163.209,"text":"人事參謀次長是次長劉沛志後勤參謀次長是次長李鳳祥海軍司令部參謀長邱俊榮空軍司令部參謀長王德陽陸軍後勤指揮部參謀長梁永坤國防部由行政院主計總處基金預算處科長李正道"},{"start":2168.339,"end":2183.709,"text":"本日會議繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑委會主管兩項信託基金案及國防部主管四項非營業基金案進行提案處理"},{"start":2184.75,"end":2211.218,"text":"那其中僑委會信託基金部分因為提案數量不多我們就在這個地方現場處理那處理完畢後我們請僑委會的列席官員可以回去辦公那之後審查國防部非營業基金時我們再移到協商桌進行協商處理那我們現在先請議事委員先行宣讀僑委會信託基金的預算數及委員提案"},{"start":2214.123,"end":2226.336,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算僑務委員會主管甲信託基金部分依中首根公益基金依基金運用計畫因依據收支逾出撥補等向之審查結果隨同調整二總收入4萬1千元"},{"start":2230.18,"end":2256.278,"text":"三總支出四萬元是本期剩餘一千元二 受理捐贈僑生獎助學金及監控地區僑民學校師資輔助基金一 基金運用計畫因依據收支與處撥補等項資審查結果隨同調整二 總收入七百一十七萬三千元三總支出七百零九萬七千元是本期剩餘七萬六千元現在宣讀委員之提案"},{"start":2258.001,"end":2279.129,"text":"第一案 莊手跟公益基金由海外各地僑胞及國內善心人士所捐獻為配合推展南向政策全面擴大吸收優秀人才持續鼓勵更多僑生回國升學建議僑委會應利用各式媒介推廣願意捐獻善款任善的循環持續下去提案人委員林益君等人二"},{"start":2281.608,"end":2307.391,"text":"僑務委員會受理捐贈僑生獎助學金及監管地區僑民學校師資輔助金要點第五點規定獎助學金以就讀國內大專以上院校在校僑生為限建議僑委會根據研議放寬申請標準以供大專以下有需求之僑生能獲得獎助學金之幫助提案人委員林楚英等人第三案"},{"start":2308.573,"end":2319.079,"text":"説理捐贈僑生獎助學金及監管地區僑民學校施支輔助基金需仰賴僑民團體及熱心人士捐贈原指僑務委員會應與海內外僑界、僑社及僑民團體加強募款並積極宣傳僑生可申請之相關獎補助金提案人委員盧美玲等人"},{"start":2333.427,"end":2357.087,"text":"第四案 豎立捐贈僑生掌柱學金及監控地區僑民學校師資輔助基金由海外各地僑胞及國內善心人士所捐獻為配合推展新南向政策全面擴大吸收優秀人才建議僑委會應利用各式媒介努力促進與推廣捐獻善款之意願提案委員林益君等人宣讀完畢"},{"start":2358.994,"end":2383.736,"text":"巧合會的基金總共是四項主決議那主決議我們通常處理的方式是請主管機關如果沒有意見就照案辦理如果有修正我們就叫修正提案那看這個提案的委員有沒有意見沒意見的話照修正通過好我們先處理第一案林益君委員所提的主決議巧合會有沒有意見可能要有人到麥克風那邊要不然沒辦法做會議記錄"},{"start":2388.442,"end":2416.97,"text":"報告召委沒有意見好召案通過第二案林楚瑩委員的主決議提案沒有意見好召案通過第三案羅美玲委員的提案你們有文字修正嗎有小部分文字修正那個提案委員有沒有意見那個修正你看過嗎剛剛有來說明了就是按照我們修正OK好第三案照文字修正通過第四案林益君委員的主決議提案沒有意見好召案通過"},{"start":2418.493,"end":2436.249,"text":"感謝委員好請那個委員長請回114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於僑委會主管莊手跟公益基金及受理捐贈僑生獎助學金及艱困地區僑民學校師資"},{"start":2437.69,"end":2461.016,"text":"輔助基金兩項信託基金案業已審查完略送請財政委員會會診後提報院會請問我們在場委員院會審議前是否需要政黨協商不用黨團協商第二院會審議時請推派一名委員做補充說明請推派王定宇莊委"},{"start":2462.16,"end":2479.866,"text":"應該羅美林委員勒好好 你推我就推我好 那個由王定宇委員做補充說明好 我們現在先請僑委會部分處理完略請僑委會先離席他們可以離席了啦"},{"start":2482.83,"end":2511.244,"text":"現在先請醫生員在這個時間的時候來宣讀國防部非營業基金的預算數和委員提案大概100餘案以及佈置協商場地宣讀期間其他在場人員如有需要可以自由離座宣讀完畢後請國防部相關列席官員移駕到協商桌來處理提案現在我們請醫生員進行宣讀"},{"start":2513.393,"end":2541.457,"text":"一百一十四年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算國防部主管甲飛營業部分一作業基金國軍生產及服務作業基金一業務計劃應依據業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等向之審查結果水統調整二業務收支業務總收入四百一十三億九千零二十六萬三千元二業務總支出四百億兩百二十四萬九千元"},{"start":2542.097,"end":2547.78,"text":"3.本期剩餘13億8801萬4千元3.結繳公庫淨額15億元4.固定資產建設改良擴充32億4104萬3千元5.國庫增撥基金額無劣數2.作業基金國均老舊眷村改建基金1.業務計劃因依據業務收支"},{"start":2562.766,"end":2577.998,"text":"轉投資固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等項皆審查結果水統調整二業務收支一業務總收入3972萬2千元二業務總支出4億6749萬4千元三本期剩餘1億7222萬8千元三截繳公戶淨額無劣數四固定資產建設改良擴充無劣數無固定"},{"start":2589.746,"end":2592.028,"text":"國庫增撥基金額無劣數3."},{"start":2592.028,"end":2605.295,"text":"作業基金國防醫學院軍事教育基金依業務計畫因依據業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改良擴充及資金應用等項之審查結果隨同調整2."},{"start":2605.295,"end":2607.476,"text":"業務收支依業務總收入7億8294萬4千元2."},{"start":2607.476,"end":2607.917,"text":"業務總支出8億6千318萬9千元"},{"start":2614.161,"end":2631.66,"text":"3.本期短促8,024万5千元3.结缴公库金额无劣数4.固定资产建设改良扩充1亿5,777万2千元5.无国库增拨基金额1亿6,369万2千元4.资本计划基金"},{"start":2632.16,"end":2643.466,"text":"国军营设及设施改建基金1.业务计划应依据基金来源及用途审查结果随同调整2.基金来源用途及余处1.基金来源147亿4735万5千元"},{"start":2647.167,"end":2668.107,"text":"基金用途三百九十三亿一百二十六万三千元三本期短处两百四十五亿五千三百九十万八千元三补办预算固定资产建设改良货中九十亿八千万元现在宣读委员制预算提案第一案至第四案为"},{"start":2668.683,"end":2698.361,"text":"国军生产及服务作业基金生产事业消货成本制成品消货收入之提案第一案增列五千万元委员黄仁等人提案第二案冻结一亿元委员黄仁等人提案第三案冻结五百万元委员徐巧兴等人提案第四案冻结五千万元委员徐巧兴等人提案第五案医疗事业其他医疗收入增列三百万元委员黄仁等人提案第六案服务收入"},{"start":2699.02,"end":2715.609,"text":"甄列100万元委员林楚英等提案第七案管理及总务费用一般服务费冻结5亿元委员徐巧欣等提案第八案至第九案为生产事业材料及用品费使用材料费之提案"},{"start":2716.755,"end":2739.072,"text":"第八案 凍結一千萬元委員陳冠廷等人提案第九案 凍結一百萬元委員王定宇等人提案第十案 自第十七案為管理及總務費用之提案第十案 旅運費檢列一百萬元凍結一百萬元委員馬文君等人提案第十一案 修理保養及保固費凍結九百萬元委員馬文君等人提案第十二案 專業服務費"},{"start":2740.598,"end":2758.557,"text":"檢列兩千萬元 凍結三百萬元 委員馬文君等提案第十三案 公關未到費 檢列四百萬元 凍結兩百萬元 委員馬文君等提案第十四案 使用材料費 檢列一百萬元 凍結五十萬元 委員馬文君等提案第四五案 用品消耗"},{"start":2760.338,"end":2772.362,"text":"凍結90萬元委員馬文君等提案第16案管理及總務費用凍結2000萬元委員馬文君等提案第17案管理及總務費用凍結2000萬元委員馬文君等提案第18案業務成本與費用凍結100萬元委員王定宇等提案第19案"},{"start":2780.399,"end":2797.513,"text":"雜項費用 其他費用 簡列三萬九千元 凍結三千萬元為馬文君等提案第二十案 自二十七案為醫療成本之提案第二十案門診醫療成本專業服務費 凍結一千萬元為林益君等提案第二十一案"},{"start":2799.298,"end":2818.307,"text":"門診醫療成本凍結一千萬元五元陳冠廷等提案第二十二案門診醫療成本凍結五百萬元五元黃仁等提案第二十三案門診醫療成本凍結一百萬元五元王定宇等提案第二十四案住院醫療成本專業服務費凍結兩百萬元五元陳冠廷等提案第二十五案住院醫療成本"},{"start":2819.447,"end":2845.804,"text":"专业服务费冻结一千万元五元零一均等提案第二十六案住院医疗成本短处赔偿与保险给付冻结一百万元五元陈冠廷等提案第二十七案医疗成本冻结五百万元五元徐巧兴等提案第二十八至第二十九案为管理及总务费用之提案第二十八案冻结三千万元五元马文君等提案第二十九案冻结一千万元五元马文君等提案第三十案"},{"start":2847.045,"end":2859.876,"text":"醫療事業業務外費用凍結1000萬元委員林益君等提案第31案醫療事業成本費用總計正式原額薪資凍結100萬元委員陳冠廷等提案第32至第33案為服務事業勞務成本之提案第32案凍結200萬元委員陳冠廷等提案第33案凍結100萬元"},{"start":2870.683,"end":2892.478,"text":"五元黃人等提案第34案服務事業服務費用減列20萬元凍結10%五元零儲應等提案第35案至第36案為服務事業管理費用及總務費用之提案第35案凍結100萬元五元黃人等提案第36案凍結800萬元五元馬文君等提案第37案研究發展及訓練費凍結20萬元五元陳冠廷等提案第38案至第39案為"},{"start":2900.168,"end":2916.099,"text":"福利及文教事業銷貨成本之提案第38案一般服務費減列100萬元5元黃人等提案第39案印刷出版出版品銷貨成本凍結50萬元5元陳冠廷等提案第40案"},{"start":2917.981,"end":2934.257,"text":"福利及文教事業管理費用及總共費用凍結7000萬元為馬文君等提案第41案服務費用減裂100萬元為黃人等提案第42案至第45案為醫療事業固定資產建設改良擴充之提案"},{"start":2934.817,"end":2953.653,"text":"第四十二案國軍台中總醫院興建醫療大樓計劃凍結一億元委員馬文君等提案第四十三案凍結五千萬元委員黃仁等提案第四十四案山軍總醫院興建重症醫療大樓計劃凍結一百萬元委員林儲英等提案第四十五案"},{"start":2955.014,"end":2967.777,"text":"醫療事業繼續計劃凍結7,827,000元委員馬文君等提案第46案醫療事業新興計劃凍結2,000萬元委員馬文君等提案第47至48案為醫療事業專案計劃凍結5,000萬元委員黃仁等提案第48案醫療事業專案計劃凍結1,000萬元委員林益君等提案第49案至第"},{"start":2982.853,"end":3006.939,"text":"五十四案为主决议,现在宣读主决议之内容。第四十九案,国军生产及服务作业基金生产事业,主要系办理军品生产,原建议军备局应积极寻求稳定的火药供应来源,以确保相关军品生产不致延大。第五十案,国军生产及服务作业基金医疗事业,"},{"start":3008.163,"end":3031.891,"text":"109年抵制、113年8月抵制催收款分别介于1亿5388万9千元至2亿73万9千元间并要求各军医院积极办理催收款之清理体验人、委员、黄人等人第51案国军官兵因资金需求而使用不明网络借贷平台之情形屡见不鲜"},{"start":3033.278,"end":3052.578,"text":"顯示軍儲業務實際功能上代強化為提升業務合法性與實務效益建議國防部應嚴禮相關非營業基金業務之轉型方案並提供官兵多元化的投資及理財工具提案人委員林楚英等人第52案近年醫療服務成本連連攀升"},{"start":3053.737,"end":3069.711,"text":"基金醫療事業就該向門診病患醫療成本預算之估列近年來顯有過於保守云宜妥善管控相關成本並參著經營時機核實編列預算體驗人委員林益君等人第五十四案"},{"start":3071.7,"end":3092.394,"text":"國軍生產期服務作業基金服務事業海軍四海一家因受市場競爭與疫情等種種因素之影響其每年平均住房數不斷下滑予以檢討經營策略並妥謀改善提案人委員林玉君等人第五十四案福利及文教事業青年日報社"},{"start":3093.815,"end":3117.387,"text":"予以妥謀推廣對策,故《青年日報》應主動與文化部合作與其主管國立文教機構上架《青年日報》文創商品提案人委員林益君等人第五十五案國軍老舊眷村改建基金業務收入凍結2239萬元委員徐巧欣等人提案第五十六案"},{"start":3119.931,"end":3144.193,"text":"業務外收入租賃收入增列五千萬元五元黃人等提案第五十七案成本及費用總計捐助補助與獎助減列一百萬元凍結五百萬元五元零處因等提案第五十八案成本及費用總計雜項費用凍結五百萬元五元黃人等提案五十九案至"},{"start":3146.362,"end":3174.803,"text":"65案為主決議現在宣讀主決議之內容第59案據立法院預算中心報告參據國防部統計資料指出儘管國軍老舊眷村改建總冊內待處分之土地面積761.97公頃中待活化卷地面積佔比近市成原請國防部積極辦理相關作業以完成土地活化處分及融資常在"},{"start":3175.624,"end":3192.393,"text":"並保存眷村特色文化提案人委員黃仁等人第六十案國軍老舊眷村改建基金一百一十四年度補助地方政府眷村文化保存開辦費編列一千三百五十萬元與加強控管預算並經濟眷村"},{"start":3192.873,"end":3206.839,"text":"文化保存及輔導作業提案人委員黃仁等人第六十一案國軍老舊眷村改建基金一百一十四年度列管眷地之度跟分回房屋圍管費編列一千八百萬元"},{"start":3208.376,"end":3237.624,"text":"予以积极办理卷地与相关房产之火化运用工作减轻基金支付单请国防部以三个月内提出书面报告提案人委员陈冠廷等人第62案国军老旧卷村改建基金近年俊改土地处理作业费用颇高国防部予以积极办理卷地与相关房产之火化运用工作提案人委员黄定宇等人第63案国军老旧卷村改建基金114年度针对未出售资"},{"start":3238.064,"end":3262.238,"text":"於屋與店鋪441戶所需水電費修理保養及保固費等雜項費用共編列980萬5千元國防部允於積極辦理卷地與相關房產之活化運用工作亦助卷改基金之裁員提案人委員王定宇等人第64案國軍老舊卷村改建基金114年度預算案與業務費用向下"},{"start":3263.298,"end":3278.813,"text":"並列捐助補助與獎助金金額1350萬元國防部與經濟眷村文化保存及輔導作為更需積極與地方政府合作並能達成眷村文化永續發展與經營之效益提案人委員陳冠廷等人"},{"start":3280.512,"end":3307.005,"text":"一六十五案國軍老舊眷村改建經濟一百一十四年度預算案業務收入銷貨收入科目編列一億九千兩百九十九萬九千元系標售台北市崇仁新村等改建基地店鋪之款項國防部應衡量全盤效益是否採標諸標售並行多元化之作為避免閒置之財以縮眷村改建基金之成效提案人委員陳冠廷等人"},{"start":3309.428,"end":3320.258,"text":"66至76案 系國防醫學院軍事教育基金教學成本支提案66案 水電費減列500萬元 凍結1000萬元委員馬文君等提案67案 水電費凍結100萬元委員陳冠然等提案68案 修理保養及保護費減列300萬元委員黃仁等提案"},{"start":3329.327,"end":3354.069,"text":"六九案修理保養及保固費減列兩百萬元凍結八百萬元委員馬文君等提案七十案修理保養及保固費減列一百萬元凍結四百萬元委員林楚瑩等提案七十一案一般服務費減列五十萬元凍結一百萬元委員馬文君等提案七十二案交通及運輸設備租金減列三十萬元凍結十萬元委員馬文君等提案七十三案"},{"start":3354.81,"end":3364.656,"text":"捐助補助與獎助減列10萬元凍結100萬元委員林儲英等提案74案捐助補助與獎助減列300萬元凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案75案專業服務費減列2000萬元凍結500萬元委員馬文君等提案76案捐助補助"},{"start":3372.468,"end":3398.713,"text":"與獎助檢列三千萬元凍結九百萬元為馬文軍等提案七七至七十八案系服務費用之提案七七案水電費凍結一百萬元為盟定局等提案七十八案凍結三十萬元委員羅美玲等提案七十九至八十案系專案計劃之提案七九案三軍總醫院暨國防醫學院一百一十二至一百一十六年充實軍政醫學設備"},{"start":3401.972,"end":3423.358,"text":"簡列1億元凍結1851萬7千元委員馬文君等提案八十案國軍醫學院軍政醫學網路設備系統提升案簡列600萬元凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案八十一案一次性項目簡列1000萬元凍結576萬元委員馬文君等提案八十案為主結議"},{"start":3424.378,"end":3438.926,"text":"主決議內容為國防醫學院軍事教育基金110-112年公務預算中屬本基金範圍內自籌收入佔總收入比率分別為39.57%、36.56%及36.83%均低於四成建議國防醫學院於三個月內提出改善財務提升自籌收入穩健基金財務的書面計畫83-84案第205簽件"},{"start":3451.516,"end":3468.011,"text":"第205場遷建專案計劃之提案、83案檢列100萬元凍結5億元委員馬文君等提案、84案凍結100萬元委員王定宇等提案、85至87案系資安園區專案計劃之提案、85案檢列2億元委員馬文君等提案86案"},{"start":3471.287,"end":3497.812,"text":"檢列五百萬元委員黃仁等提案八七案凍結一百萬元委員王定一等提案八十八至一百零五案系老舊營舍整建計劃之提案八十八案檢列三百萬元委員馬委員羅美林等提案八九案檢列一億元委員馬文君等提案九十案檢列兩億元委員馬文君等提案九十一案檢列五千萬元委員馬文君等提案九十二案檢列五千萬元委員馬文君等提案"},{"start":3498.532,"end":3518.846,"text":"93案檢列五千萬元委員馬文君等提案94案檢列五千萬元委員馬文君等提案95案檢列兩千萬元委員馬文君等提案96案檢列五千萬元委員馬文君等提案97案檢列三千萬元委員馬文君等提案98案檢列兩千萬元委員馬文君等提案99案檢列七千萬元凍結五百萬元委員馬文君等提案"},{"start":3524.45,"end":3539.358,"text":"100案檢列2000萬元凍結100萬元委員馬文君等提案101案檢列1億元凍結500萬元委員馬文君等提案第102案凍結5000萬元委員黃仁等提案第103案凍結5000萬元委員黃仁等提案第104案凍結1000萬元委員黃仁等提案第105案凍結100萬元委員王定宇等提案第106案至109案為成本"},{"start":3552.524,"end":3561.489,"text":"及費用總計、工程及設施整建計劃之提案第106案檢列500萬元為馬文軍等提案第107案檢列5億元凍結500萬元為馬文軍等提案第108案凍結1000萬元為勇皇人等提案第109案凍結100萬元"},{"start":3571.115,"end":3586.413,"text":"委員王定宇等人提案第一百一十案成本及費用總計一般行政管理計劃請列五百萬元凍結兩千萬元委員馬文君等人提案第一百一十一案國軍營社及設施改建基金成本及費用總計"},{"start":3587.814,"end":3600.643,"text":"構建固定資產、無形資產、非理財目的之長期投資及營設及設施工程支出減列五千萬元、凍結十億元委員林楚英等提案第112案為主決議宣讀主決議之內容"},{"start":3603.385,"end":3631.317,"text":"第112案根據立法院預算中心報告截至113年9月底前河納國軍營設及設施改建基金來源清澈之待處分營地中上有85公頃逾10年人為移交財政部接管原請國防部檢討因移交而未移交之情勢說明應如何改善上述情況並於三個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告提案人委員黃仁等人宣讀完畢"},{"start":3638.697,"end":3649.609,"text":"各位同仁請就座各業館參謀麻煩你按這個順序來坐到部長旁邊我們在協商桌來處理相關的基金預算"},{"start":3651.739,"end":3674.313,"text":"先是原則 一樣預算案提案委員不在 原則上不處理我們會併案來處理如果有溝通不良的 我們會移到第二輪來節省時間把時間用在比較有爭議的相關案子基金案也相對單純我們現在來處理是先處理收入看一下"},{"start":3687.489,"end":3703.441,"text":"好 我們現在併案我們也是採分支計劃來做合併第一案到第四案是收入這個國軍生產及服務作業基金這四個案併在一起來 請業管單位說明"},{"start":3706.57,"end":3720.547,"text":"具備局說明第一至二案為黃人委員關切銷貨收入縮減及軍品結繳進度的硬體非常感謝黃人委員的指導本案已向黃委員說明建起同意並按針類三千萬元以上報告來 黃委員"},{"start":3726.283,"end":3745.323,"text":"這個特別提到這個併案陣列的三千萬的原因第一案跟第二案一併處理兩岸關係急劇的惡化經費局應該承擔更大的責任提高產能為國軍部隊提供可靠的裝備因此提案陣列收入"},{"start":3746.824,"end":3770.888,"text":"關於T-75K3手槍金貝奇說明205場年產能在3000支目前還有4235支將在今年4月底產資交軍剩餘數已經抽出年產能如何能在4月底全數交軍需要詳細的說清楚好"},{"start":3772.369,"end":3789.325,"text":"謝謝黃仁委員那你同意增列三千好第一案到第四案以黃仁委員的第一案為主題案增列三千萬元那這個夜館單位在回覆說明的時候請照委員催詢的部分另外你們的手槍到底"},{"start":3791.441,"end":3809.721,"text":"警察沒有訂你們的手槍嘛對然後軍方有現在我們的因為後備戰力的後備戰力其實也很重要但我的意思是說普遍的評價你們的步槍做得好像比手槍好我這樣講是很客氣的說法我已經繞了一圈了我不好意思直接講"},{"start":3811.022,"end":3828.071,"text":"你們的手槍有沒有精進的範圍我們這一批生產完之後我們會再去精進下一代的因為這一盤生產完之後會一直那你這樣講我如果是買主我聽到你還要精進下一代我現在訂單絕對收起來沒有我坦白講國軍大家大家因為軍官都用手槍嘛"},{"start":3829.051,"end":3853.192,"text":"那我們這個生產的手槍跟步槍手槍確實有待改進我們委員會現在議程都還蠻正常的也許各位同仁也許我們如果還有空檔的話我們排去那個205看一下他們的步手槍上次是我跟林益君召委兩位去是沒錯那我們可以再排一次去看一下你們各國我們國產的手那你們那個6.8的那個有出來了嗎"},{"start":3854.152,"end":3877.124,"text":"那個在這個月會出來一個班按照委員但是你們的子彈做得出來嗎你們知道是要變的吧子彈的話我們到時候假如國廠話說我也一定要做出來的你們的彈跟火要這個要加強啦好不好好我們一道四案項處理好我們現在第五案是黃人委員的提案請說明這個是生產服務基金好來那剛才處理完了"},{"start":3881.403,"end":3900.189,"text":"來第五案 各位委員大家好第五案為還原委員針對醫療事業114年病患膳食收入增加吸陰單價提高會住院病患增加提列增列其他醫療收入300萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明並依委員提案辦理增列300萬"},{"start":3903.328,"end":3927.984,"text":"雖然是經醫有說明歷年病患的膳食服務人日經不固定但依照邏輯住院人數和膳食服務應該是正相關且醫院提供的膳食菜單都應經過專業的營養評估更適合住院病患使用各院鼓勵住院民眾的訂餐所以建議增列300萬"},{"start":3928.965,"end":3949.58,"text":"好 第五案照案通過來 第六案請說明第六案為海軍司令部服務收入提案委員為林楚穎委員提案認為預期減少客房服務服務收納檢列問題以示為辦事說明委員同意整列整體的服務收入一百萬元請委員知道來 林委員"},{"start":3951.602,"end":3977.177,"text":"海軍這邊已經來溝通過了那他們當初簡列的原因是因為認為這個觀光發展條例70之2條的規範嘛那麼因為現在這個觀光發展條例有一些異動可以延長5年所以我認為這個的話應該就比較不影響到你們四海一家的收入的部分那我們就一樣是用增列100萬嘛好 OK好 所以第六案照案通過了那個海軍參謀長還好吧你的風怎麼變這樣子好"},{"start":3980.158,"end":3996.486,"text":"我是擔心你穿難給對面這一排啦好不好多保重好再來第七案生產作業服務基金徐曉鑫委員提案來請說明第七案是徐曉鑫委員針對生服務基金向下各事業"},{"start":3997.566,"end":4025.015,"text":"因依預算法將各事業的預算各自編列就是編列分預算這部分我們這邊特別跟委員做個說明我們現行在生福基金向下六個事業是按照立法院101年、104年的決議事項各基金以整併成單一基金為原則來辦理所以我們目前是這六個事業整併成一個生福基金這個部分我跟薛委員說明一下"},{"start":4026.175,"end":4042.563,"text":"其實當時他們是分開的為什麼合併呢立法院決議叫他們合併的那當然立法院每一屆不同的決定這個部分是不要動那麼多用改組決議或怎麼樣因為當時是我們好像有兩次一次101年一次是104"},{"start":4046.485,"end":4069.289,"text":"就當時是我們立法院決定叫他不要分支要大家合併那當然我們現在也可以建議他分開對 因為我講一下這個因為各式的成本會計編列那這個我們如果要讓大家更一目了然的去看到這個工作績效的話公開透明的話其實我個人因為每一屆想法不一樣我個人認為是分開編列會比較好"},{"start":4072.33,"end":4089.035,"text":"那呢不然的話每一次什麼你把它全部裹成一包那有一些部分它是新資新資的部分我們絕對是不想碰到的因為要讓大家能夠正常運作但有一些部分那可能它有各種各式各樣的這個內容嘛你看"},{"start":4089.975,"end":4114.563,"text":"業務成本費用管理總務費用服務費用一般服務費那你全部包在一起的話我們沒有辦法很清楚的知道那到底哪一些是屬於勞工權益的部分所以對我們在預算審查部分會有一些困難所以如果召委這邊能夠同意的話我們可以改主決議沒有問題我先提醒一下因為我剛才看了一下這是當時在審查法律案就是行政院主計總署的組織法"},{"start":4116.463,"end":4139.562,"text":"我們立法院的院會的附帶決議那個效率會比我們委員會高99年的時候啊我的建議是這樣當然我們每屆委員可以認為要分開就分開啦這個案子用組決議啦然後組決議的話如果許委員這個部分要推動的話事實上我們可以在"},{"start":4140.863,"end":4162.639,"text":"二三讀的時候二三讀的時候這組決議通過之後然後立法院表達這個態度那他們又可以分開沒有那這樣如果是這樣子的話還不如就是說你們告訴我們說那你們這邊的底線大概你可以覺得凍結多少費用那我就直接把它放在這邊好了我也就不用改組決議了對因為因為既然九九年的時候他們的合併跟分開布袋決議是有的嘛"},{"start":4165.061,"end":4179.353,"text":"國防部的基金的合併分開其實是聽立法院的決議的所以我的意思是說那我乾脆是凍結一個部分那要問一下凍結書這個部分你們可以支持這個認為合理的這個方案是什麼這樣"},{"start":4180.554,"end":4207.46,"text":"跟委員說明一下有關剛剛委員所關切的這六個事業它的相關的明細資料其實我們在編預算書表的時候我們都有附上相關明細那後面我們按照委員指導我們會再把它做更詳細的說明讓委員可以了解每個事業它的收支剩餘的一個狀況另外因為這個是管總的費用管總費用這邊編的15億多都是我們約聘僱人員的薪資跟所謂的年考獎的"},{"start":4208.18,"end":4216.307,"text":"所以約聘薪資跟人事費用我們當然是沒有要動但是具體而言是多少這邊我們都有詳細的明細列出是15億元全部的一個詳細的編列狀況都是約聘僱人員的相關的金費"},{"start":4233.422,"end":4252.882,"text":"是是是那如果是這樣子的話那我們就好我們改組決議表達態度然後希望能夠把它這個未來可以把這個相關的基金那可以寫得更完整好不好是是沒有問題好那個學員看我這樣才是第七案改組決議"},{"start":4254.443,"end":4278.138,"text":"那主決議的內容也請國防部未來雖然立法院決議要你們把這些合併但是未來提供給各委員的報告書面報告的時候請把分支項目明細列清楚對應該是說你的預算你是包一包寫在一起嘛對不對但是你的細項的話要提供給我們做更清楚"},{"start":4278.638,"end":4283.27,"text":"那我們第七案改組決議好第八到第九案來合併處理來請說明"},{"start":4285.441,"end":4312.623,"text":"第八至第九案為陳冠廷及王定宇委員共同關切生產事業、國軍後備部隊兵器類的裝備的整備等軍品未如期自繳的議題本局以實施算盤制每月召開工作管制會議並遵委員的指導在安全無虞之下我們會來執行我們會入立在今年的年終之前會完成截角任務感謝委員的指導本案已向委員口頭或書面說明"},{"start":4313.887,"end":4314.833,"text":"現請同意併案修訂為主決議"},{"start":4317.202,"end":4344.012,"text":"陳冠廷委員好 謝謝詹委員我們有 辦公室有一個缺少解那我們看到有些延遲是兩年以上的但是我們同意用組決議的方式去改進好 第八到第九案改組決議那組決議請提案委員趕快把原來案子改寫送上來好 我們現在處理的併案是第十案到第十七案的併案處理請那個業管單位說明"},{"start":4345.433,"end":4361.803,"text":"第十至第十七案為馬文君委員關切管理及總務費用部分用途別因揭露資料不足不利審查及產品截角進駐等議題感謝馬文君委員的指導以上馬委員說明見請同意第十案凍結一百萬"},{"start":4362.583,"end":4385.292,"text":"第十一案檢列三百萬第十二案檢列三百萬第十三案預算照列第十四案檢列五十萬第十五案檢列五十萬第十六案檢列五百萬針對未完成截剿的軍品允於一百一十四年全數截剿新增主決議題案第十七案凍結五百萬"},{"start":4386.752,"end":4414.25,"text":"針對外購關鍵料件應有配套措施及205場搬遷進度應儘速完成新增主決議提案報告完畢來我先詢問那個馬委員這個共識OK啦好來請馬委員說10到17他大概有不同的原因那第10案因為我們在這個國軍生產跟服務作業基金裡面我們主要是做督導"},{"start":4415.171,"end":4435.449,"text":"所屬生生智中心還有房廠的這個旅運費他算大概新增兩百萬他的金額也不是很高可是因為我們在近年所有的偽軍備局的生產武器包括像我們的輕重狙擊槍還有班用機槍等等所有的包括還有研發的輪型戰"},{"start":4437.631,"end":4463.584,"text":"就是我們戰砲車它的產期膠裝都延後所以我們在這個督導上面我們旅運費增加可是我們要怎麼樣去跟上這樣子進度所以統一凍結一百萬今統一後使得凍之好當然跟這個案子未必相關我來宣讀一下剛才你們念的部分因為念得比較快不過我真的提醒國防部跟兵工廠這裡"},{"start":4465.319,"end":4467.21,"text":"但要不管是搖兩棟或者搖55或者我們搖動5"},{"start":4470.478,"end":4497.704,"text":"如果能夠吸取國外的技術移轉我們就不要土法煉鋼因為那一個同樣的砲彈可以打50公里跟打20公里差很大它出煙的狀況也差很大所以我們以往都習慣人家要計轉了可能我們說我們自己弄比較省錢當然如果能夠省錢又一樣好的話我們尊重但我們還是希望給國軍官兵好的東西尤其彈藥彈藥很重要好不好我們來念第十案"},{"start":4498.664,"end":4513.917,"text":"麻煩你檢視一下看有沒有照你們溝通好的第十案凍結100萬元書面報告後你要經同意嗎經同意後使得凍資第十一案檢列300萬元科目執行調整"},{"start":4514.838,"end":4535.893,"text":"第十二案主席不好意思我想我們這個都已經討論過就不用再科目自行調整因為對他們來說基金沒有什麼差別啦我們那個大概就用原來的那個預算科目好不好那個準備就OK啦沒問題好那簡列案我從來都在聽什麼"},{"start":4538.855,"end":4544.357,"text":"第11號好第11案檢列300萬元第12案檢列300萬元第13案預算照列第14案檢列50萬元第15案檢列50萬元第16案"},{"start":4557.922,"end":4581.872,"text":"剪裂500萬元那另外馬委員會提組決議那第17案第17案凍結500萬元書面報告經同意後使得凍資那馬委員另外會提組決議好以上10到17案這樣處理接下來處理不好意思因為我們是有原因就是凍結的理由還有刪減的理由我還是希望稍微講一下"},{"start":4584.096,"end":4596.361,"text":"好不好妳說 講一下就剛剛 剛剛對 因為我們妳現在要發言對 剛剛雖然有那個我剛剛是講第十案而已沒關係 請發言沒關係 這OK好 第十一案我們減列三百萬主要是因為我們這個預算是用在修理保養跟保固費那我們看到這個預算裡面把那個包括像一些"},{"start":4614.997,"end":4635.547,"text":"防水工程還有周邊的設施整修還有包括圍牆還有道路全部都放在這裡因為這個部分主要是對於銀色修繕裝備維護的部分所以我們希望他很多的預算有些應該用在公開就是我們的公務預算就應該用在公務預算因為"},{"start":4637.788,"end":4650.031,"text":"就是才不會有小金庫的概念因為像有些基金我們根本看不到它框一個金額在那裡那你把細項放在裡面有些做的在公共預算就可以編的就像就業安定基金裡面一樣你拿來開演唱會或者拿來裝修辦公室其實都不被接受所以我們希望未來在這個部分雖然我們簡略可是我們也希望未來在編列的時候也要注意到這個部分那第十二"},{"start":4666.394,"end":4668.536,"text":"第12案我們簡列300萬因為這個大概是買軟體的部分可是我們也希望可以很清楚的知道這些軟體到底用在哪些廠因為我們有202廠這個部分他做槍的205廠是彈藥209廠是戰車那402廠是做衣服"},{"start":4690.157,"end":4693.619,"text":"可是你買的那個軟體看起來只寫16套或者幾套我們不知道你買因為每一場做的東西不一樣你的軟體是不是會一致或者為什麼會需要這樣的軟體這個也沒有說明清楚那我們也希望這個部分我們是用簡略可是在使用預算的時候還是要對我們委員會還是要說明清楚那第13案同意照列"},{"start":4717.045,"end":4722.51,"text":"14案3 50我們對於這個案子他是買一些服裝給員工這個我們沒有意見有些福利應該給我們也贊成可是因為就像我們剛剛講的你每個場的那個不一樣那這到底是制服還是一般的服裝我想你如果是制服那每一場大概也不會穿一樣吧"},{"start":4743.408,"end":4765.423,"text":"那如果不是制服你又你能夠給多少人然後每人幾件我想這個也可能要去說明詳細一點那15案也是同意三五十這個是食品費用他雖然有新增不過我們希望可以遵截開支那16案的部分這個三五百跟第十案的那個"},{"start":4767.384,"end":4774.747,"text":"理由大概差不多就是我們在踢拐弧的手槍還有班用機槍還有T91的這個榴彈槍它全部都延誤膠裝那我們現在在這個案子裡面有說明是說我們有分早晚班"},{"start":4783.11,"end":4786.453,"text":"然後我們要去加速它的製作的進度可是我們也不希望說你在催促進度的情況之下會造成安全的疑慮或者剛剛也有建議說像我們的武器裝備如果可以跟國外"},{"start":4798.323,"end":4821.274,"text":"或者才有可以取得更好的這些關鍵技術我想其實都可以一併做考量可是最重要的我們還是要有自己尤其是槍炮彈藥這一些在基礎的供應的能力上面我們還是應該要具備而且要把這個能力留在我們國內那所有武器裝備都一樣那另外就是在第17案的這個部分"},{"start":4824.756,"end":4841.815,"text":"這個部分在205場這個簽場的時候我們發射藥的取得都是改採國外採購嘛至少在目前是這樣子那我們可能對於韓國的這個發射藥目前取得是有一點問題嗎"},{"start":4844.748,"end":4848.77,"text":"還在協調現在就是我們如果說像類似碰到這樣的狀況因為現在每一個地方的區域安全也許都隨時會有一些發生一些狀況因為我們有來自歐洲的美洲的還有亞洲的那如果發生狀況的時候我們是不是有備案這個部分我們也要求用主決議來規範然後也希望可以去重視好 謝謝"},{"start":4870.503,"end":4898.005,"text":"好來第十八案那個王定宇委員提案改組決議那我們接下來進行第十九案馬文君委員的提案來請說明第十九案為馬文君委員關切205場光中營區土地污染整治的議題本案是配合政府辦理所需必要的支出感謝委員的支持本案已向委員說明建請凍結一千萬以上報告"},{"start":4899.427,"end":4902.831,"text":"這個部分其實在過去我們在審這個預算的時候其實就提出過一些質疑那現在我們還沒有看到他目前執行的狀況或怎麼處理他的廢土的去向因為這個主要是土屋的"},{"start":4916.129,"end":4919.871,"text":"整治的一個部分那第一階段其實205場我們這個光中營區我們遷出的時候第一階段總預算而且是污染最嚴重的地方其實我們編了5億6去做這樣土屋的執行可是第二階段突然暴增到37億4千這個37億多是違給高雄市政府執行的"},{"start":4940.299,"end":4944.101,"text":"它從112年本來要做到117年那蠻特別的是它可以提前到115年完成是因為沒有這麼多的污染還是有什麼其他的原因我們希望把執行的狀況可以說明清楚而且用書面提供給我們委員會因為這個部分我們認為說在第一階段本來應該污染最嚴重的預算只有5億6可是第二階段是全面性的"},{"start":4968.797,"end":4985.096,"text":"它的预算竟然高达3714所以这个部分我们还是希望可以提供比较详细的资料那另外如果说像这一种的可以提早两年完成我们觉得是比较特别就是说你的这些污染防治"},{"start":4986.417,"end":5001.528,"text":"可以比我們的期限還快了兩年可是我們所有其他的國防部很多所有的案子不管是武器製造還有銀色的興建等等其實全部都是落後那它的差異在哪裡希望可以說明一下統一凍結一千萬"},{"start":5003.709,"end":5020.534,"text":"好 第十九案凍結一千萬國安部可能也要以前舊的營區那些污染後來處理都很貴所以你們現在新的營區特別是做冰工廠的現在的防止污染就很重要了否則未來土地處理成本會更高"},{"start":5021.514,"end":5022.415,"text":"黃人委員的第22案改組決議"},{"start":5043.689,"end":5051.096,"text":"第二十到二十七案分別為林益君委員、陳冠廷委員、黃仁委員、王定宇委員及習曉勳委員的提案"},{"start":5051.716,"end":5069.243,"text":"第二十案為林玉君委員針對醫療事業護理人力缺額日益惡化各醫院有部分負病比為符規定疑失對策緩解護理負荷提案凍結門診醫療成本一千萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明見請同意改列組結議"},{"start":5076.6,"end":5095.127,"text":"第二十一案為陳冠廷委員針對醫療事業今年門診病患醫療單位成本逐年攀升顯見利潤也遭侵蝕 提案凍結門診醫療成本一千萬元感謝委員指導 本案已向委員說明 建請同意下修為減列一百萬元"},{"start":5096.434,"end":5122.306,"text":"第二十二案感謝黃仁委員改成主決議第二十三案為王定宇委員針對醫療事業一百一十四年度門診醫療服務單位成本決算數逐年上升並屢超預算數不利其營運績效提案凍結門診醫療成本一百萬元感謝委員指導本院已向委員說明建請同意改列為主決議第二十四案我有同意你改主決議嗎"},{"start":5124.93,"end":5132.714,"text":"第二十四案為陳冠廷委員針對醫療事業醫療成本編列專業服務費較上年度大幅增加倘電腦軟體及委託檢驗認證為必要支出應檢討設置專業人員以收降低成本之效提案凍結住院醫療成本兩百萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明現請同意改列為主決議"},{"start":5154.195,"end":5171.69,"text":"第二十五案為林益君委員針對醫療事業護理人力缺額日益惡化各醫院有部分負病比為符規定疑似對策緩解護理負荷提案凍結住院醫療成本一千萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明 建議同意改列為主決議"},{"start":5172.811,"end":5194.086,"text":"第26案為陳冠廷委員針對醫療事業114年各國軍醫院編列題列待賬費用近年期未催收年年增加需加強清理提案凍結住院醫療成本100萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明 建請同意改列為主決議第27案為徐曉新委員針對醫療事業應提高護理人員薪資"},{"start":5200.41,"end":5221.551,"text":"津貼指導提案凍結醫療成本500萬元本部就國軍醫院護理人員職長環境改善以提升民聘護理人員的邊缺及待遇提高夜班費津貼訂定留任獎金制度目前國軍醫院一般病患護理師年薪已達70萬以上集中症單位已達85萬以上"},{"start":5223.936,"end":5236.659,"text":"以超越護理師公會全國聯合會提出年薪保障70萬元之訴求感謝委員指導見請委員預算同意照列報告完畢好來那個徐曉清委員接下來是林益君委員來請"},{"start":5238.099,"end":5252.052,"text":"我在這邊呢本來提的這個凍結並不是真的想要去凍結大家的預算那所以我在這邊先講一下我們的具體理由那我們可以看到這個軍醫局提供的這個說明裡面我們在109年的護理人力預算原額原額是4606人然後113年的時候我們有達到5560人增加1000位"},{"start":5265.023,"end":5292.285,"text":"但是在109年實際禁用的人數是4283人113年實際禁用的人數是4440人所以顯見就是說你們增加了這些員額那能夠去負擔這些護理人員的負荷呢並不是它主要的這個標的當然對於我們的護理人員它有很多的一些加急幫助等等我都是贊同的我都是同意的"},{"start":5292.805,"end":5307.852,"text":"但現在呢我們希望能夠做一件事情就是我們的這個病戶比的問題還是必須要來處理當然不是只有針對軍醫局所有我們整個台灣的醫院同樣的問題只是因為我們今天身在國防委員會我們針對這個部分來審查"},{"start":5309.893,"end":5331.301,"text":"所以雖然我們在薪資上面就您所說的是超越護理師公會保障的年薪但是呢我們現在要談的事情是我們包含是第一個我們的福利津貼如何能夠帶動全國護理人員的待遇提升這是一點第二個是說我們護理人力的尋求來講的話我們有什麼樣的一個管道"},{"start":5331.801,"end":5356.156,"text":"能夠禁用足夠多的護理人力那才能去讓他們的工作量能夠做一些減少因為就算你給他比較好的待遇但實際上當他的病戶比仍然是維持在那個水平的時候他們的工作壓力還是很大很多人他覺得說我不是要這個錢我是要一份合理的工時的工作所以這個部分呢我是可以"},{"start":5357.883,"end":5383.972,"text":"改列凍結五十萬好不好我就很少很少凍結五十萬那經同意後然後我們來通過不曉得這個不知道委員可不可以改成減列減列一百萬或五十萬你要減列啊減掉五十萬喔因為我是希望因為我是希望得到你們的兩個內兩個月內得到書面回覆包括我們又要砍你的預算"},{"start":5384.332,"end":5392.118,"text":"其實主角跟凍結效果是一樣他都要寫報告來啦看你沒有沒有當然我還是必須要凍好不好對啊我還不要那如果你覺得50萬太高我30萬也可以我並不是因為我要再強調一次我並不是要去我並不是要去砍或是凍你們的預算學位沒關係我待會來處理好不好因為"},{"start":5403.686,"end":5428.979,"text":"這個那麼少你可以建議啦預算還是委員那一起來決定啦對你可以建議但是我的意思是說我可以在不影響你們的工作的情況之下做一部分的凍結但我的要求在於提出書面報告針對我們護理師的這個薪資保障的整個未來精進規劃以及如何招募到更多的護理師來降低這個醫護比的這個問題"},{"start":5432.6,"end":5443.926,"text":"這兩項我希望能夠處理那主決議當然你是要提報告可是我是希望能夠經同意後動之好我現在處理預算第22項林議軍委員好像要發表意見來請說"},{"start":5446.806,"end":5467.129,"text":"那針對我的20案和25案因為現在少子化所以各家醫院還有護理人力其實都是嚴重的短缺尤其護理人力還要輪大夜班然後應該要改善護理人員的勞動條件還有薪資的待遇因應未來護理人員的需求所以昨天國防部的軍醫局也有來辦公室跟我解釋"},{"start":5468.27,"end":5484.327,"text":"說目前的護理人力其實應該都陸續的達標了所以他們也有承諾說依據床位的動態平衡做護理人力的彈性調整所以我同意主席說看可不可以一起併案處理還有我還要希望再增加一個組決議好 謝謝那我們來處理預算數"},{"start":5488.922,"end":5509.169,"text":"第20案林玉君召委的部分改組決議那第21案陳冠廷委員你是減列100嗎我幫你拆開來好不好你減50我這邊減50好 這個陳冠廷委員的第21案減列50萬那你們需不需要科目字條"},{"start":5510.595,"end":5522.985,"text":"那個軍醫局不用啦 好OK好 再來22案黃榮委員提案改組決議23案簡列50萬元24案改組決議25案改組決議26案改組決議27案凍結50萬書面報告經同意後 使得凍之可以吧可以啊 要30啊可以可以那要爭取的話沒有問題好 那30萬"},{"start":5540.865,"end":5550.939,"text":"其實三十萬跟五十萬你們做的動作一模一樣啦是是是可以啦不過三十萬啦因為他預算是三十萬好不好凍結三十萬書面報告經統一後時得凍之"},{"start":5555.606,"end":5585.186,"text":"你們書面報告的部分你們要把紀錄清楚委員問的部分要有答案好不好來那個陳文廷委員好主席我只是就總和從21到27的總和的簡單的平均就是說我們第26的部分就是關於我們希望是惡意逃避醫療費用的還有這個外勞逃逸的這些費用那個有些呆帳的部分希望說報告上面可以講清楚一點以後的解決方案是怎麼樣好這個部分再麻煩一下然後再來就是"},{"start":5586.987,"end":5588.648,"text":"我們第28到29案病案處理請就委員詢問跟溝通的公司做說明"},{"start":5613.564,"end":5635.595,"text":"第二十八案到第二十九案為馬文君委員提案第二十八案馬文君委員針對醫療事業各醫院對護理人員缺額嚴重顯見各醫院對爭取護理人員就任能有待努力或應有新做法提案凍結管理及總務費費用三千萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建議同意改列為主決議"},{"start":5636.696,"end":5659.321,"text":"第二十九案委員馬文君委員針對醫療事業直指治療系統整備計劃結論反覆不一延長執行至一百一十八年完成事前評估及修訂嚴謹度待加強提案凍結管理及總顧費用一千萬元感謝委員指導本院已向委員說明依委員提案辦理凍結一千萬並向委員會提出書面報告後實的動之來請馬委員"},{"start":5664.077,"end":5671.745,"text":"好 謝謝二十八案這個部分同意改組決議因為我們現在護理師全國缺額非常嚴重不過我們以現在護理師的這個評比其實台中榮總是最高的所以其實我們可以大家可以互相交流學習那這個部分改成組決議的原因"},{"start":5687.339,"end":5693.461,"text":"護理師現在的缺額可能並不只是薪資的問題還包括他的相對的福利業務工作等等我想這個可能都可以做一些調整像有一些醫院其實他們是有提供宿舍或者社團的活動就是他的軟硬體可能也都會相對的去考慮那這個部分再請我們軍醫局也去做一個衡量"},{"start":5712.867,"end":5733.279,"text":"那29案的部分這個部分我們強烈要求因為醫學中心的子子治療系統的這個計劃他本來的期程113年可是現在要延到118年才會完成他一下子延了5年不過我們對於他的期程我想"},{"start":5734.981,"end":5740.145,"text":"軍事局可以再去做更多的一個妥適的考量那這中間我們最大的問題還有要求是它的設置地點其實在我們這個園區周邊其實它都還有這個地點可是它現在要設置的位置是要把大體老師的紀念園區把它"},{"start":5759.497,"end":5763.02,"text":"算是挖楚會牽引因為去動這個位置我們覺得非常不合宜"},{"start":5771.824,"end":5777.905,"text":"紀念碑也是因為它本來就沒有大體啊它本來就沒有大體它已經捐出去了所有的家屬如果要懷念他們就是在這個我們所有的紀念公園的意義是什麼可是你為了要蓋這個它明明還有其他的選擇跟考量可是你選擇大體老師的紀念園區這是非常不恰當的因為大家我想這個部分我們強烈要求一定要更改位置地點"},{"start":5798.209,"end":5802.913,"text":"那甚至我們現在的一個軍政大樓也剛在興建我們放在裡面其實也沒有什麼不可以啊因為比如說像北榮像中國醫藥學院大家都有做然後他現在坐在自己原來的醫療大樓裡面也沒有什麼問題所以這個部分我們強烈要求凍結一千萬"},{"start":5818.126,"end":5822.352,"text":"書面報告均同意後實的動之好28案改組決議29案凍結1000萬書面報告均同意後實的動之我請教國防部我們曾經有個決議通過你們現在互效這個"},{"start":5834.588,"end":5854.229,"text":"護專啊大學護理系畢業的義男如果他服役是一年期的他是去當步槍兵還是會列到會安排到我們軍醫部門要專長試才試用你不要這邊會的你不用然後這邊要重新訓練一批就可惜了同樣醫學院的學生來的話是到軍醫單位嗎對"},{"start":5856.611,"end":5880.041,"text":"因為他們四個月全部都列補槍兵沒有 全動數都更改 照專長來分好 謝謝第三十案 林益君召委的提案 請說明第三十案為林益君委員針對醫療事業國際醫院民診處各項服務提列呆帳今年期末節欠數居高不下 催收醫療款"},{"start":5881.041,"end":5889.914,"text":"向處理代加強提案凍結業務外費用一千萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明進行同意改列為主決議來請林議軍委員"},{"start":5893.615,"end":5913.836,"text":"因為這個案子我是發現這幾年整體催收款項的期末結欠數其實非常的高啦都居高不下然後而且足年都增加然後部分醫院都用轉賬呃轉銷待賬的方式去清洗清理這些欠款的比例非常的高可是昨天國防部軍醫局有來我辦公室有解釋過"},{"start":5914.717,"end":5920.859,"text":"但是他們國軍醫院其實欠款呆帳的時候他們有解釋說這是因為社會公益的救護的責任還有急診需要協助還有生活困苦那些無健保身份外籍人士入島的遊民這些的緊急醫療還有住院的原因所以並不是故意不積極清理呆帳的作業因為他這樣的說明的時候其實因為我以前在國軍醫院呆過所以我覺得之前是真的是有這樣的"},{"start":5942.164,"end":5962.731,"text":"都會有這樣的案子出現所以我想說看在國際醫院基於社會公益發揮國軍的大愛的救人移民的情況下我想還是同意預算照列來改成組決議但是最後一句新增組決議我想要把它改成要求國防部應加強該基金醫療事業應收醫療欠費的清理作業避免提高待戰的風險以利財務健全要求兩個月內提出書面報告"},{"start":5970.674,"end":5973.395,"text":"第三十一案為陳冠廷委員針對醫療事業逐年調整護理人員預算原額為不見效益能因缺額減少服務量能"},{"start":5995.427,"end":6017.441,"text":"至無法達成營運績效 因失良策改進 提案凍結成本及費用總計100萬元感謝委員指導 本案已向委員說明 建請同意改列為主決議來 請陳冠廷委員我們初步同意 就是同意的意思但是看2014年它是已經編到6000人 但是實質上經由人數只有4000多人所以這差1000多"},{"start":6019.142,"end":6039.791,"text":"那我想這一個這部分我們是希望如果不用預算的方式去的話那就是希望說可以用主決議的方式把這一個未來的改進方向講一下是謝謝委員知道好我們31案改組決議接下來處理併案處理32案跟33案陳冠廷委員跟黃仁委員提案請說明"},{"start":6040.771,"end":6041.972,"text":"徐委員聽到你的聲音說不忍心那你們看怎麼處理預算"},{"start":6064.07,"end":6089.166,"text":"這個我們是同意是改組決議但是在後面的不要上來每個都掃聲哈但海軍這個四海一將我看連續多年是有低於這個營業的目標那可能是因為畢竟自己是作戰軍種可能沒有辦法經營那現在改成委外那但是還是希望有一些海軍的元素在裡面畢竟有這樣子的傳統在好不好是"},{"start":6091.267,"end":6093.369,"text":"最主要是這邊33跟35案都是關於這個海經的四海一家經營的成效的問題那四海一家近年來這個"},{"start":6109.986,"end":6138.646,"text":"住房率非常的低站在政府資產的一個角度上來看是浪費了一個這樣的一個問題所以這邊是特別提出了一個這樣的一個想法那改成為主決議好我們謝謝兩位委員那也請邱參謀長身體保重32案到33案改主決議再來34案我們請這個林楚雲委員的提案是空軍的部分請說明"},{"start":6139.526,"end":6157.305,"text":"空軍報告 第34案為林楚瑩委員關切球場Youtube及臉書經營成效已赴委員辦公室說明 經同意預算減列二十萬 恭請委員知道來 請林委員我先講結論 就同意就是三二十萬 然後其他不凍結"},{"start":6158.726,"end":6168.954,"text":"因為我們這個CCK說實話啦生意興隆啦也不太需要這個再去推廣YouTube不過在這個資料的部分我發現一個狀況可能我還是要提出來就是因為生意興隆的關係你們的這個刷卡費其實編列的預算跟決算之間有非常大的落差比如說113年你們編了95萬可是刷卡費的手續費因為這個是要付給這個就是信用卡公司的是高達到160"},{"start":6188.848,"end":6194.532,"text":"等於是說你的預算才編96萬但是呢你每一年都是決算的時候比預算高出非常多那我覺得其實你從這個營業額你就可以去推估我其實希望的為什麼要砍這個20萬是因為我認為希望未來在編列預算的時候是要何時編列因為你每一年其實你都編90萬但是呢你每一年的決算從109年到現在都是130幾萬"},{"start":6215.123,"end":6230.194,"text":"那這兩個之間的落差是非常大的所以我希望在一百一十四年那你們這一次你們編的一千就是一百二十萬可能會比較接近另外就是有關於信用卡這個刷卡的部分我問了一下我知道你們是現在跟和庫合作嘛是"},{"start":6231.095,"end":6243.763,"text":"那麼我也建議你們其實可以透過推台灣Pay因為本席過去在財委會的時候台灣PayPay得很辛苦CCK既然是我們自己國軍的那就是那很謝謝這個參謀長你們給的資料非常的豐富就是仔細然後詳盡然後我們也看到更多的問題那台灣Pay你們也馬上去聯絡會安裝了對給你們高度肯定這個所以你預算數是還是320剪裂20你高度肯定還剪裂20"},{"start":6258.112,"end":6268.522,"text":"沒有 因為他們還是有在預算基金預算編列上面我覺得這個預算決算之間的差異對 溝通好了那我們34案簡列20萬這個需不需要科目字條"},{"start":6269.557,"end":6289.825,"text":"你們沒有科目的問題吧沒有OK 簡列20萬來35到36案我先說明35萬黃人委員改為主決議那請就這兩案進行說明35 36案一樣是四孩一家的一個收度問題也經委員同意要改主決議請委員知道好 謝謝黃人委員那馬委員呢來請說明"},{"start":6296.98,"end":6311.17,"text":"那個36四海一家啦四海一家那個同意海改組原因因為就是經營的模式可能要創新一下對你們碧海那個有沒有恢復營業了有 現在他是用韓國烤肉的方式做在碧海做韓國烤肉不好吃生意是生意的他去做韓國烤肉怪怪的"},{"start":6321.667,"end":6342.095,"text":"好 那個35 36案感謝委員都同意改為主決議第37案改為主決議那個陳管理委員如果委員確認的話我就直接唸下去啦37案改主決議我們在主決議的時候再來進行討論來 38案那個黃榮委員提案改"},{"start":6343.496,"end":6358.193,"text":"現在現在你要說明嗎現在現在是清泉崗的那個球場嘛我看那個清泉崗的球場他那個每年只要繳3300塊錢的年倍是這樣嗎然後那個年度的是就過去的這個固定的252元現在只要繳3300元他是什麼"},{"start":6361.477,"end":6380.633,"text":"之前成立的時候是繳12萬然後另外年度的只有44個浮動要繳3.3萬我們意思是說這個明顯低於這個市價啦我是說可以你們自營就是要把它營利提高的話那可能要調整一下陳管理委我以前在空軍服務那個球場的價格不僅低於市價品質也遠低於市況"},{"start":6383.196,"end":6398.891,"text":"沒有沒有 現在CK已經改善非常多所以營業額每年都超過他們就是剛剛我講就是他們生意太好以致於刷卡手續費越來越多坦白講不是你們本業啦"},{"start":6399.912,"end":6415.566,"text":"好沒關係我改天有空再過去我不會打球沒關係我是負責撿球的好這個38 39案改為主決議那委員垂詢的部分請業管單位注意來接下來第40案第40案請說明"},{"start":6418.737,"end":6432.751,"text":"各位委員好 政戰局報告有關馬文君委員第40案針對改善銷售以及作業環境鼓勵國軍向福利機構採購的案子感謝委員指導前已向委員辦公室說明 建請改列主決議請委員指導來 馬委員請"},{"start":6436.186,"end":6439.509,"text":"這個部分我們同意改組決議可是我們還是希望我們可以有更積極的作為因為我們現在還是有福利總署雖然現在7-11跟全家等等這些都已經進駐到營區裡面大家可能也習慣去那邊去做一些採購可是我們福利總署其實它存在的必要是比如說我們當有天然災害發生的時候我們有很多的物資"},{"start":6463.387,"end":6468.41,"text":"的運補其實可能大概都是靠我們福利總署這邊去提供那福利總署還有一個最大的優點就是他會提供5%的金額回饋給官兵嘛所以如果說他同時存在因為現在變成福利總署他在福利站的那個"},{"start":6483.717,"end":6490.262,"text":"經營非常非常的辛苦那如果說像比如說我們在演習或者我們單位需要的時候比如像泡麵還有飲用水這種東西其實盡量盡可能的在我們福利總處去採購要不然他們要維持然後他又可以提供5%給官兵去做福利的使用那你其他的廠商根本沒有"},{"start":6505.493,"end":6509.215,"text":"所有的利潤都他們賺走了所以我們希望在這裡主決議主要的精神是希望可以在這個部分把5%的回饋在官兵身上的這個部分我們一定要讓他可以好好的維持下去那福利總處其實也稍微要調整一下不然他現在沒有辦法競爭賣的東西很像我們早期的雜貨店一樣"},{"start":6526.424,"end":6551.439,"text":"那個部分一直沒有什麼大改變所以我們如果可以採購的盡量我們在可以買的大量的應該要跟他買請偵證局以具體作為來回應馬委員的主決議我請問一個問題但是你們不知道不用急著回答我們現在進駐的這些全家7-11什麼的上一次裴若曦離開之後7-11他們的報告板被"},{"start":6552.119,"end":6565.517,"text":"被駭客入侵全部改成簡體制啊什麼的我們進入營區的有沒有這個情形你們有沒有瞭解這個我們去瞭解一下好不好我要瞭解就是說我們現在讓外單位進駐營區資安啊人安啊這些該做這個部分沒有"},{"start":6566.73,"end":6590.105,"text":"確實沒有,去了解一下啦,我只是提問,因為這跟預算無關啦我也接著那個我們交委的詢問一下就是說像他們如果有進駐到我們營區裡面啊那像比如說7-11全家這些便利商店他們一定都會安裝他們自己的監視器那他們的監視系統跟我們國軍的這個部分是有聯動還是他們自己外卡的因為"},{"start":6591.466,"end":6617.905,"text":"對啊對啊那我知道嘛所以我的意思是說那這樣子的話那我們國軍包含是採買等等的就進出的狀況其實都隨時有可能就是從外線然後就進來就掌控在這個營區裡面的商店的問題耶就這相關的資安的你去了解一下再回覆我們這個跟預算有關那如果說你們反正了解到確實有問題那就先即刻改善我覺得是"},{"start":6618.425,"end":6642.308,"text":"是謝謝委員 了解狀況那委員其實我們都可以隨時詢問啦好不好這個給政政局一個科目我是一個好奇就是上一次7-11它的那個報告板它那個螢幕通通被駭客入侵置換了如果軍區的沒有那也許軍區的做法可以借給他們當借鏡啦是 這個是你了解啦好接下來第41案環保委員提案請說明"},{"start":6644.212,"end":6670.445,"text":"委員好第41號黃委員提案一致委員辦公室說明完畢同意簡列金額下修為20萬元懇請委員指導來黃委員這個本案增加的預算主要是為台東赴這個公站的道路排水系統整修228萬餘考量到預算需求以及經費應該遵截應用同意減少"},{"start":6673.247,"end":6681.776,"text":"檢列20萬元第41案這個不用科目字條了OK好來第42到45案併案處理請業管單位說明軍醫局"},{"start":6688.412,"end":6717.312,"text":"委員好 第42案到45案分為馬文君委員黃仁委員及林楚英委員的提案第42案為馬文君委員針對醫療事業台中總醫院新建醫療大樓計劃結案時程延至115年預算增加7億元為避免回收時程過長或浪費預算情形提案凍結該專案計劃1億元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明 建請同意預算照列"},{"start":6718.052,"end":6723.497,"text":"第43案為黃任委員針對醫療事業台中總醫院新建醫療大樓計劃113年截至11月預算執行率僅63.12%提案凍結專案計劃5000萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明 建請同意改列組決議"},{"start":6737.469,"end":6752.906,"text":"第44項為林柱英委員針對醫療事業三軍總醫院新建重症醫療大樓計劃統包公司沙士車交通事故事件應強化行人通行空間規劃及交通標示符合現場需求"},{"start":6754.508,"end":6776.565,"text":"保障公共安全提案凍結該專案計畫100萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明依委員提案辦理凍結100萬元並向委員會提出順便報告後,使得動之第45案委員馬文君委員針對國軍高雄總醫院等國軍醫療服務機構建置長照大樓提供住宿室"},{"start":6777.486,"end":6781.655,"text":"社區市長照服務應在考量全案規劃提案凍結繼續計劃782萬7千元感謝委員指導"},{"start":6788.868,"end":6810.487,"text":"因為這個計畫說實在我們的軍醫院雖然我們是軍方醫院但暫時應該以戰傷為主但是平常的醫療需求還是有社區照護的責任非常感謝委員平常對我們軍醫局非常的支持真的非常感謝是不是可以見請委員免以凍結或者支持我們的計畫謝謝委員馬委員"},{"start":6816.686,"end":6822.11,"text":"你們有溝通過嗎我本來是全三啦我有理 我有原因啦"},{"start":6830.095,"end":6850.955,"text":"其他委員我先馬文君的委員的第四十二案照列沒問題然後黃仁委員的四十三案改組決議然後林楚英委員的四十四案就照案凍結一百萬書面報告後使得凍之好那現在就是第四十五案有關軍醫院業務裡面有長照的部分請馬委員來"},{"start":6853.915,"end":6859.319,"text":"這個部分我們認為軍醫院因為你如果說像其他的醫院比如說像我們的榮總體系的醫院還有像我們的退輔會其實都有這些相關的一些不管是日照長照或者住宿型的這些照護等等其實都有在做"},{"start":6875.811,"end":6882.013,"text":"而且其實是符合他們的需求可是軍醫院為什麼我們認為是非常不恰當因為軍醫院它最重要的是軍政醫療為主它的對象就是軍人跟軍眷軍人如果在服役期間受傷最多治療三個月如果超過半年大概就要退伍了"},{"start":6897.917,"end":6911.207,"text":"所以其實他們沒有長照的這樣的需求大概也沒有什麼日照或住宿如果他們退役以後其實他們就是由退府會來接手所以他如果需要這樣子的服務其實是在這樣子的一個條件之下就可以有一個長照的一個照護那現在高雄總醫院在岡山跟鳳山同時都要新建住宿型還有長照的這樣的一個大樓"},{"start":6927.58,"end":6930.981,"text":"我們是覺得非常不恰當因為現在最近這幾年我們看到不管國防的預算還有很多基金的預算尤其是基金我們國防預算大概都是在強調我們現在如果兩岸發生什麼樣衝突的時候我們現在應該要怎麼樣去做一些戰傷的一個救治或者我們甚至編了非常非常多的經費都是在包括"},{"start":6954.504,"end":6966.873,"text":"我們的局長特別還提到我們前進我們所有的對外科的這些中心就是實際上可以施作的我們有很多的經費照理說就應該用在這裡因為這不是我們應該要做的你像社區的這些服務也不是我們軍醫院要做的所以"},{"start":6975.959,"end":6978.521,"text":"原則上我們認為這筆預算根本就不應該用而且也會讓人家質疑因為現在不管是長照日照或者住宿型的這些其實是非常搶手那現在最簡單的因為如果民間業者想要投入這個區塊他必須要去"},{"start":6996.778,"end":7000.56,"text":"採購土地 還要去變更土地 還要變更它的使用需求然後還要再去興建 大家可能都要投資成本可是如果在我們相關的這些不管是退府體系的 或者我們融種體系或者甚至像我們的軍醫院如果是蓋這個那以後它一定是委外 它不可能自己經營那等於是給廠商方便而已"},{"start":7021.792,"end":7028.954,"text":"所以我們是不是需要投入這樣的一個經費在我們現在這麼需求尤其在軍醫院需求這麼大的情況之下我們寧可這些錢其實拿來用在我們的設備有些醫療設備或者人員的運用上面它增加任何的福利也好其實照理說它應該要使用在這裡讓軍醫局說明一下好不好來"},{"start":7048.381,"end":7066.855,"text":"謝謝委員給我們很好的建議因為我們其實先前跟委員請教過兩次那剛才也有跟委員稍微做短暫的溝通跟請示那委員給我們一些營運項目還有營運一些方向的建議那我們會按照委員的建議"},{"start":7067.755,"end":7091.574,"text":"來做一些營運的方向跟項目的一些修改那的確也除了戰傷救護是我們最首要之重的確也有一些社區的需求所以是不是建請委員就按原來的凍結凍結數來凍結我們繼續來做一些檢討改進然後再跟委員做報告來做一些方向的所以凍結數沒有意見OK凍結是全凍782萬"},{"start":7097.282,"end":7108.006,"text":"這是全部啦因為我們再一次強調其實像我們光不是那種全面性的戰爭的情況之下我說戰爭狀態我說沒有我們當時在發生921大地震的時候我們的醫院就是兩家普利最重要的或者其他的醫院其實它光是收容受傷的患者還有放大體就是遺體的部分其實都沒有其他的空間所以我們希望軍醫院"},{"start":7126.272,"end":7132.015,"text":"不是負責去做社區服務我們是以軍政醫療為主而且他照顧的對象是軍人所以我再次強調如果要變成全棟我們希望是可以朝這個方向去做考量跟規劃他營運的方向會來思考我不知道北部怎麼樣"},{"start":7150.044,"end":7177.217,"text":"其實很多地方像東部南部缺乏醫療資源有時候軍醫院是當地唯一的醫療資源那肩負著社區的照顧醫療其實有時候這個醫療資源比較不足的地方軍醫院在平時擔負的一些任務我們很感謝那當然馬委員也有你的道理啦當然我是說這個部分大家可以多思考一下那這個案子就照782萬主席我再補充一下啦"},{"start":7177.797,"end":7184.239,"text":"如果說我們用一塊土地我們去蓋一個大樓其實我們的日照中心收容的大概就是30位你即使在整個區域我們那邊也都是偏鄉啊可是你蓋了一個醫療大樓你即使是有兩層樓你一次可以收容大概就30位所以對這樣子的社區服務我覺得不是在我們這個醫院"},{"start":7199.062,"end":7214.591,"text":"我知道 就我在說這個凍結是這樣OK啦我們就這凍結讓軍醫局去思考全面性的有時候每個不同區域的軍醫院也許有不一樣的考量啦好 接下來那個 所以對啊 就凍結啊 到782萬啦然後書面報告經同意後 使得凍結好 謝謝好 再來處理第46案 請說明"},{"start":7223.359,"end":7247.724,"text":"46號案為馬雲君委員針對醫療事業近年固定資產計劃與辦理計劃變更114年又提出山津總醫院基隆分院醫療大樓新建工程等新增案為避免產生回收時期過長或有浪費基金預算之情形提案凍結新興計劃2000萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意下修為凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後時的動之"},{"start":7251.271,"end":7251.895,"text":"那個馬委員凍結一千萬"},{"start":7259.086,"end":7282.831,"text":"46這個部分其實大概主要是我們看到國防部以外像我們軍醫局這一段時間我們有三個新建工程大概也都是不管是工程的延宕也好或者增加預算不然就是減量減相我們希望這個狀況不要再發生所以我們統一凍結一千萬可是希望可以改善這些狀況謝謝"},{"start":7285.249,"end":7311.815,"text":"我們第46案凍結1000萬元書面報告經同意後使得凍資來4748併案處理請說明第47到48案分別為黃仁委員及林玉菊委員提案第47案為黃仁委員針對醫療事業固定資產專案計劃其中5案曾因經費不足辦理計劃修訂事前評估及修訂過程之嚴謹度容待加強提案凍結專案計劃5000萬元"},{"start":7314.116,"end":7342.518,"text":"感謝委員指導 本案已向委員說明 建請同意改列為主決議第48案為林義軍委員針對醫療事業直子系治療系統整備案檢討過程及內容嚴謹度待加強令新興計劃案應參酌以往經驗合理估列預算並加強督考 必利工程如期完成提案凍結專案計劃1000萬元感謝委員指導 本案已向委員說明 建請同意改列為主決議來 兩位委員改主決議OK啦"},{"start":7345.448,"end":7367.658,"text":"說明一下最主要還是要提醒國防部事前規劃要有嚴謹以三種停車的問題不只是就醫民醫生載道那民醫院載道連醫院的工作人員也感到不便這些都是一開始就應該設想到的一個問題所以你們要有所一個嚴謹的一個好林議區委員"},{"start":7374.4,"end":7377.761,"text":"針對48案我看了那個固定資產建設改良擴充的計劃預算的變更的增加好像每次都是說是COVID-19還有二五戰爭的影響然後執行率都不佳這樣我覺得這方面是需要檢討而且但是我看這整個預算支出大部分都已經是簽約了和支付工程的費用"},{"start":7396.527,"end":7398.848,"text":"最主要是有一個我覺得說好不容易已經買了一個全台灣少數醫院擁有的然後而且只有國軍體系裡面唯一的治療癌症治療的使用的這個子子治療的系統這個醫療設備我覺得是在國軍官軍的官兵的那個整個醫療服務"},{"start":7415.339,"end":7418.922,"text":"福利上是真的是還蠻不錯的就是給他們一個比較好的醫療福利一個保障所以我是希望能夠把計劃明細還有後續整個計劃修訂提出書面報告然後我同意預算照列然後改成組決議"},{"start":7432.213,"end":7461.433,"text":"好 我們4748兩岸改組決議那我先徵求在場委員同意一下因為我們很多提案改組決議還沒有送來所以我現在如果併案要處理這個國軍生產及服務作業基金的組決議起處理的話可能反而時間會耽誤我們是不是待會不管是眷改啦或者是國軍生產及服務作業基金新增的組決議我們通通挪到最後面一併處理以免委員都要趕著寫這個組決議這樣各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":7462.393,"end":7473.177,"text":"好 沒有意見的話我們現在先處理我們所有新增或改列組決議的部分挪後最後處理不管哪一個基金那我們現在先照宣讀的程序來處理49案到54案的這個組決議"},{"start":7478.499,"end":7498.489,"text":"一樣 照案通過就照案通過 按文字修正通過就按文字修正通過來第49案主決議來依提案辦理好 照案通過第50案主決議依提案辦理照案通過51案主決議依文字修正後的提案辦理好 那個林委員文字修正你有沒有意見"},{"start":7499.269,"end":7520.871,"text":"沒有意見好按文字修正後通過52案主決議依提案辦理好照案通過53案主決議依文字修正後提案辦理來林玉君委員文字修正有沒有意見沒有意見好53案按文字修正後通過54案主決議依文字修正後提案辦理好那個林玉君委員有沒有意見"},{"start":7522.947,"end":7536.22,"text":"沒有意見好54案主決議案文字修正後通過好接下來處理國軍老舊眷村改建基金先從收入部分開始第一案徐曉欣委員的提案來請說明委員好好來麥克風這裡對面"},{"start":7549.672,"end":7572.117,"text":"幫大家省時間喔那我這邊只有幾個問題就是說我這邊可以改組決議但是呢你們回覆的書面的這個第二頁的部分喔那就是因為永康委員不在那所以我代替他講一下就是他們國會辦公室在113年7月24號的時候有請國安局一起研討說請國安局先清查眷戶的住用資格"},{"start":7572.617,"end":7591.223,"text":"但是我們詢問國安局的時候是還沒有拿到的那因為我們今天省國防部所以我只是提一下有這件事情跟大家報告那呢好因為我們現在就是在捲改條例的這個部分是沒有納入國安局跟國安會的所以我們這裡會去做一個提案因為呢"},{"start":7592.444,"end":7616.443,"text":"這個沒有列入國安局跟國安會的時候我們在整個卷改的時候經常會碰到三不管地帶那我們要找國防部也不對找國安局國安會他說我們沒有在那個條例裡面不關我的事所以在這個部分呢我可以改成主決議那但是呢也希望就是說國防部能夠支持說把這個國安局跟國安會一起納入我們的卷改條例的第三條條文修正案以上"},{"start":7617.043,"end":7623.386,"text":"好 那是另外一個案子了到時候提案再來處理我們今天先處理預算55案改組決議來 56案黃仁委員的提案請說明"},{"start":7629.223,"end":7653.424,"text":"第56案為黃仁委員針對租賃收入增列5000萬元的提案感謝委員的指導本案已經向委員辦公室說明建請同意改列主決議來 請黃仁委員因為最主要提醒政戰局積極活化資產避免造成物件的閒置不請浪費還有很多支出的管理費用本項租賃收入每年編列"},{"start":7655.245,"end":7671.83,"text":"借偏低 曾暗己在估計這個租賃收入時的時候更詳情的一個精確 好不好好 謝謝委員 請黃榮委員同意改組決議了好 麻煩組決議提出那第57案林楚穎委員提案 請主管單位說明"},{"start":7672.383,"end":7677.648,"text":"第五十七案為林楚瑩委員針對捐助補助跟獎助減列一百萬元及凍結五百萬元的提案本案已經向委員說明建請同意預算三減一百萬凍結一百萬向委員會提出書面報告後使得動之"},{"start":7688.84,"end":7699.426,"text":"好 這個就是這樣 但是我要先提出來一下就是徵戰局 我發現就是基金都有同樣一個狀況就是你們111年度預算是600萬 但是決算是2395萬這個差距是很高 尤其是112年你們的預算是369萬 但決算是3041萬 是9倍"},{"start":7712.794,"end":7721.361,"text":"那我希望其實我的我提出來凍結的原因跟刪除的原因都是希望你們既然預算可以核實編列你們就把預算拉高那因為像這種老舊眷村改建的基金他們該怎麼用或怎麼用其實多數的委員也都不會反對"},{"start":7731.109,"end":7739.399,"text":"但是我比較在乎的是說你們在預算編列的過程的精準度好嗎那你們113年度一樣是嘛決算740萬嘛預算740萬但決算是1300多萬又是兩倍那希望在這個部分能夠不要在編的時候編得少少的"},{"start":7748.309,"end":7768.68,"text":"然後到時候用的時候因為基金的你們使用的方式比較有彈性那就會變成是預算決算之間差異很大這個其實是我覺得我要提出來的部分那我請政經局或相關單位改善因為預算失真我們省預算就意義不大就是說一年兩年還可以理解如果長年都"},{"start":7769.78,"end":7788.847,"text":"決算數跟預算數差了幾倍以上這個可能你們在預算辨列上可能要注意數目字是 這個部分我們會協同各縣市政府一起共同來談對 因為他們這個卷改其實都跟地方政府有關係有時候今年任督兩脈打通了他就執行多一點打不通就一直卡在那裡好 這個57案剛才預算數沒有問題就是簡列100萬元"},{"start":7794.289,"end":7804.116,"text":"然後凍結100萬元那凍結數書面報告後使得凍資來第58案黃仁委員提案請說明第58案為黃仁委員針對土地處理作業費凍結500萬元提案感謝委員指導本案已經向委員辦公室說明建請同意改列主決議來請黃仁委員因為這個是在第56案包含58案是議題兩面"},{"start":7820.427,"end":7845.763,"text":"那經過說明在這幾年的三年騰空卷地辦理短期活化租金收益皆有增加所以同意主決議我們58案改列主決議接下來處理卷改基金的主決議那一樣再跟本會的委員同仁報告因為主決議像剛才這樣臨時改主決議所以委員要提出主決議文會慢一點所以我們剛才已經"},{"start":7846.603,"end":7869.057,"text":"徵求大家同意把所有新增改列組決議的案挪到最後我們待會最後的時候就不分哪個基金就循序把它處理完那現在先處理宣讀過的組決議案好 一樣照案通過或者是照文字修正通過請各位委員注意一下看一下自己的提案來第59案組決議1提案辦理好 照案通過"},{"start":7869.617,"end":7871.619,"text":"我們捲改基金這個階段先處理完畢現在來處理"},{"start":7894.378,"end":7907.188,"text":"國防醫學院軍事教育基金這個教育基金能夠設立其實是一個里程碑請第一個提案馬委員66案到76案併案處理來 請國防醫學院業管在嗎人呢 軍醫局在廁所"},{"start":7920.518,"end":7932.962,"text":"沒關係 我們休息三分鐘我該不該吐出去的話收回來我們繼續處理部長需不需要休息不用了"},{"start":7939.809,"end":7950.907,"text":"來我們回來處理66案到76案國防醫學院軍事教育基金請就66案到76案那業務主管機關請說明"},{"start":7952.76,"end":7978.745,"text":"各位好,第66案到76案,分別為馬文君委員、陳冠廷委員、黃榮委員及林楚英委員提案。第66案,馬文君委員針對軍教基金教學成本、水電費114年新增預算超出台電、台水等公司年度漲價費率,提案檢列500萬元及凍結1000萬元。感謝委員指導。本案已向委員說明,建請同意預算照列。"},{"start":7979.745,"end":8007.662,"text":"第67案 陳冠廷委員針對軍教基金教學成本水電費較上年度預算編列增加幅度逾30%來 提案委員不在不予處理 下一案第68案 黃仁委員針對軍教基金教學成本修理保養及保固費編列預算較上年度成長幅度達85%提案減列300萬元 感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明 建請同意下修為減列100萬元"},{"start":8009.554,"end":8026.78,"text":"第69案為馬雲軍委員針對軍教基金教學成本修理保養及保固費新增預算相關揭露資料無法說明原因提案檢列200萬元及凍結800萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意預算照列"},{"start":8027.6,"end":8041.044,"text":"第七十案林楚英委員針對經教基金教學成本修理保養及保固費編列預算較上年度成長幅度達82%提案檢列100萬元及凍結400萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意預算檢列100萬元及凍結數下修為10萬元並向委員會提出書面報告後實則動之"},{"start":8052.366,"end":8068.803,"text":"第七十一案為馬文君委員針對軍教基金教學成本一般服務費新增預算揭露資料為說明預算編列方式提案簡列五十萬元及凍結一百萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建起同意預算簡列五十萬元"},{"start":8069.824,"end":8086.376,"text":"第七十二案為馬雲軍委員針對軍教基金教學成本交通局運輸設備租金新增預算揭露資料為說明預算編列方式提案簡列三十萬元及凍結十萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意預算照列"},{"start":8087.136,"end":8103.873,"text":"第73案為林楚瑩委員針對軍教基金教學成本捐助補助及獎助編列預算較上年度成長幅度達8.5倍提案減列10萬元及凍結100萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明見請同意預算照列"},{"start":8104.514,"end":8121.435,"text":"第七十四案為馬雲軍委員針對軍教基金教學成本捐助補助與獎助新增預算揭露資料為說明預算編列方式提案簡列三百萬元及凍結一百萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明見請同意預算照列"},{"start":8122.116,"end":8137.844,"text":"第七十五案馬雲軍委員針對軍教基金建交合作成本專業服務費新增預算揭露資料為說明預算編列方式提案簡列兩千萬元及凍結五百萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明見請同意改列組決議"},{"start":8139.085,"end":8165.355,"text":"第76案為馬文君委員針對軍教基金建交合作成本捐助補助與獎助新增預算揭露資料為說明預算編列方式提案簡略3000萬元及凍結900萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明 建請同意預算照列好我先詢問各位委員剛才念的預算處理是不是都有共識了那我們是不是就照共識處理有沒有需要發言的委員好來馬委員"},{"start":8167.735,"end":8177.961,"text":"有些預算我們同意照列不過因為在幾個案子裡面其實它新增的預算很高比如說像69案新增預算大概高達1400多萬那細項是有提供的不過我們希望說這些研究計畫或者它在後續可以提供相關的成果報告到底我們做了什麼樣的一個研究計畫等等"},{"start":8193.689,"end":8213.913,"text":"那另外在七十二案的部分七十四案這個也是在補助的部分國防醫學院這個是提供給學生出國實習還有志工服務的這個部分可是大概增加了四百多萬"},{"start":8214.634,"end":8238.934,"text":"那他人數是不是增加或者去了哪些國家的交流這個也提供一些相關的資料另外就是在75案的部分我們同意照列然後加組決議不過這個今年新增的預算也高達2800多萬那這個部分跟國科會的專案合作那成果也希望可以適時的說明"},{"start":8240.655,"end":8259.089,"text":"以上 謝謝好 那沒關係 我來處理預算我先講一下我的那個70案的部分因為我本身是支持這個基金的使用啦那所以說就是3減100動10萬那因為你們已經提出說明了然後另外就是73案我就測案預算照列謝謝維恩"},{"start":8260.31,"end":8276.989,"text":"好來我來處理預算數六十六到七十六案第六十六案預算照列六十七案因提案委員不在我們就不予處理六十八案簡列一百萬六十九案預算照列七十案"},{"start":8277.81,"end":8281.132,"text":"檢列100萬凍結10萬書面報告後使得凍資71案凍結50萬書面報告麻煩這個要檢列50萬檢列50萬72案照列73案照列74案預算照列"},{"start":8296.323,"end":8325.803,"text":"七十五案改組決議七十六案預算照列那請各位回應這些不管是凍結的說明或者組決議的時候請包含各委員書面或口頭垂詢的部分好 以上到七十六案來 七十七到七十八案請說明七十七到七十八案分別為王定宇委員及羅美玲委員提案第四七案為王定宇委員針對軍教基金服務費用水電費較上年度預算增幅逾三成"},{"start":8326.623,"end":8327.144,"text":"來 請羅美玲委員"},{"start":8354.158,"end":8369.385,"text":"好有關於這個水電費的這個部分是有來說明我可以照列可以列主決議那因為我這一案是跟我們召委是同一案那就看我們召委已經改主決議了你改主決議了是不是那我們這邊就改主決議好謝謝來77到78案改主決議那請各位委員的助理同仁盡快把主決議的書面送到前面來否則待會來不及宣讀"},{"start":8381.996,"end":8390.641,"text":"接下來處理79到80案請說明第79到80案為馬文君委員提案第79案為馬文君委員針對軍教基金編列112到116充實軍政醫學設備案114年預算與本部114年主管公務預算所編列預算數不相同提案減列1億元"},{"start":8409.552,"end":8435.589,"text":"凍結1851萬7千元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意預算照列第八十案為馬文君委員針對軍教基金編列國軍醫院軍政醫學網絡設備系統提升案114年預算與本部114年主管公務預算所編列預算數不相同提案簡列600萬元凍結100萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明建請同意預算照列"},{"start":8437.088,"end":8437.35,"text":"來8元招獵嗎?"},{"start":8438.837,"end":8467.277,"text":"同意照列好 79案到80案兩案預算同意照列來 第81案請說明第81案為馬文君委員針對軍教基金編列一般建築及設備項目114年預算與本部114年主管公務預算所編列對基金補助金額數無法勾基提案減列1000萬元 凍結576萬元感謝委員指導本案已向委員說明 建請同意預算照列"},{"start":8469.51,"end":8495.729,"text":"OK來81案同意照列好82案是主決議那個因為部門委員剛到我再說明一次因為有很多提案臨時改主決議所以主決議的書面有時候會來不及送上來所以本席先按剛才宣讀的主決議處理那後續改列主決議的文字補上之後我們全部不分哪一個基金別挪後最後再來一併宣讀一併處理"},{"start":8497.37,"end":8514.284,"text":"好 我們在國防醫學院的教育基金有一個主決議陳冠廷委員的主決議來 請說明以文字修正後提案辦理好 照案通過好 接下來來處理第83案到84案這個引改基金的"},{"start":8515.475,"end":8517.316,"text":"來 請說明來 麻煩金額OK啦"},{"start":8537.244,"end":8542.888,"text":"這個部分這是委高雄市政府不過它的工程是廠房的部分它要分工程跟設備那設備的部分中科院這個部分其實在工程跟設備的部分其實是常常發生不合的狀況一直改來改去那現在嚴重落後如果從預算書上面看它大概就是落後20億"},{"start":8566.285,"end":8574.852,"text":"7000多萬的這樣子的一個工程進度所以我們希望凍結預算以後儘速的可以把相關的情形可以做一個改善"},{"start":8575.771,"end":8598.283,"text":"謝謝馬文 我們一人分一千來 83案凍結一千萬元書面報告經同意後 使得凍資那84案凍結一千萬元書面報告後 經同意使得凍資那兩案是 案有一樣啦所以你們書面報告一份就可以了好 接下來第85到87案請說明第85 第87案 馬文君"},{"start":8602.445,"end":8617.437,"text":"黃仁及王定宇委員共同關切治安園區專案計劃議題感謝委員的指導本案已向委員口頭或書面說明第85案建請同意減列五千萬第86及87案建請同意併案減列五千萬請知道來那個馬委員預算書OK啦這也是落後啦對啦所有的進度都落後好這三案我來做一下分配啦來黃仁委員請說"},{"start":8631.88,"end":8652.774,"text":"因為治安的原期計劃預算進度每年都遭受到一個質疑因為這都是一個問題所在目前工程進度的才百分之三十計劃期程僅剩兩年所以積極辦理趕快避免到時候又要工期延宕所以改為減劣五千萬"},{"start":8655.517,"end":8677.916,"text":"其實我們在審查總預算已經是老問題了就是說軍方的營建工程常常會進度落後一落後物價一調整你原編的預算數是不是因為偏低所以招標的廠商他的工程他工人都先去做別的地方我不知道原因要找出來落後之後後面又要追加你們已經太多案這樣子了所以這個我們帶總預算討論過了所以我們把這三個案一併處理"},{"start":8682.119,"end":8701.225,"text":"各位同仁看看這樣子 第一個85案檢列3000萬元書面報告經同意後 使得動之86案檢列1000萬元書面報告後 使得動之87案檢列1000萬元書面報告後 使得動之OK 這樣處理好 接下來88到105案來 請說明"},{"start":8706.479,"end":8727.151,"text":"第88至105案為羅美玲、馬文君、黃仁及汪定義委員共同關切雲區漁館及釋出作業進度與老舊雲社整建計劃工程執行進度的議題感謝委員的指導本案已向委員口頭或書面說明見請同意第88案簡列300萬89案簡列1000萬"},{"start":8731.733,"end":8739.497,"text":"90案檢列5000萬91案檢列1000萬92案檢列3000萬93案檢列1000萬94案檢列3000萬95案檢列500萬96案檢列1000萬97案檢列1000萬98案預算照列99案檢列2500萬針對聚輪營區的營舍及台南機場生活設施因同胞"},{"start":8760.109,"end":8765.332,"text":"商辦理解約應落實追查新增組決提議第100案檢列1000萬第101案檢列2000萬凍結1000萬第102案與第"},{"start":8773.444,"end":8773.844,"text":"第103案第104案第105案"},{"start":8795.627,"end":8823.61,"text":"與第189案同為湯山雲區的議題建請同意併案檢列1000萬那1898989大家把那個數字聽一下本席做一個修正剛才85到87案是檢列案沒有書面報告金同意所以85到87案分別是檢列3000、1000、1000把那個書面報告金同意又死而動之那個劃掉因為是檢列案好接下來"},{"start":8824.861,"end":8835.345,"text":"我們一個一個來確認預算數各位委員如果要隨詢待會我確認完大家來隨詢我看一下這個8888案是你寫照列嗎簡列300萬一天半點簡列300萬委員如果有意見隨時告訴我我先再跟各位確認一下89案簡列1000萬元"},{"start":8853.295,"end":8863.338,"text":"對我待會到後面合起來八十九跟一零五案兩案檢列一千萬元沒錯嘛好再來九十案呢檢列五千萬元九十一案檢列一千萬元他跟一百零三案併案檢列一千萬元沒錯92案檢列三千萬元"},{"start":8880.578,"end":8887.161,"text":"他跟102並案檢列3000萬元沒有問題啦再來93案檢列1000萬元94案檢列3000萬元95案檢列500萬元96案檢列1000萬元"},{"start":8912.561,"end":8936.054,"text":"97案檢列一千萬元對97 欸這個剛剛跟104案並檢列一千案檢列一千萬98案同意照列99案檢列兩千五百萬元委員會另外提主決議再來是100案檢列一千萬101案"},{"start":8942.845,"end":8946.472,"text":"檢列2000萬元凍結1000萬凍結的部分書面報告經同意後 使得凍資那102案剛才已經跟92案併案處理了"},{"start":8955.307,"end":8978.101,"text":"再來103案剛才跟91案已經併案處理了104案剛才跟97案已經併案處理了105案剛才跟89案已經併案處理了好各位委員預算書沒有問題嗎好我待會就不再宣讀了照這樣來通過那請各位要垂詢的委員是不是馬委員來然後羅美玲委員"},{"start":8986.485,"end":8998.461,"text":"針對剛剛主席有念了很多的簡略簡略簡略就知道我們所有的很多的銀社或者一些相關的銀區興建工程全部都是落後的全部"},{"start":8998.962,"end":9003.824,"text":"所以這是非常嚴重的問題那像泡效這個部分它進度落後它已經十幾年了而且變更了三次重點是金額不斷的增加其實有時候我們說我們往後延然後金額增加就會增加它的那個它的原物料會上漲其實不是原物料上漲它有時候最高的時候並不是這幾年其實反而這幾年是有些是下調的"},{"start":9028.592,"end":9050.551,"text":"可是他們也沒有跟著下調只要是往後延宕幾乎都增加預算這也是非常不合理的雖然我們現在都是用簡略的可是我們還是希望這個部分因為它幾乎都是進度落後也沒有影響到我們的全案的經費不過這希望可以提醒一下就是在後續的一個追蹤跟管理那像"},{"start":9053.934,"end":9059.198,"text":"比較特別的因為這些大概進度落後很多原因嘛尤其像這個像92案這個全新的新市營區這個太平營區興建工程的部分中間就變更了7次而且每一個長官上來以後都各有指導經費不斷不斷的上漲越蓋越豪華可是它實際的進度這個從104年到現在現在都已經114年了到現在進度只有1.7%"},{"start":9084.274,"end":9107.842,"text":"所以我覺得這是很不可思議如果到最後真的做不起來老實說整個應該要去做一些考量是不是執行上有困難是不是應該要一直要用這樣的經費如果說只能增加經費我覺得甚至不要用我覺得可能還比較好做其他的考量那另外還有在第一"},{"start":9113.275,"end":9119.678,"text":"94案的這個部分我們同意減列3000萬可是它的執行就是武山營區的興建工程它從109年到114年它總共追加了5900多萬可是就像在公務預算裡面一樣我們看到很多的預算增加全部都是追加"},{"start":9135.583,"end":9142.185,"text":"水保的工程經費我覺得這很不可思議水保的經費像我們這些地區其實它並沒有很多水保工程需要做可是在水保工程去增加經費是最容易的而且也沒有什麼困難好像很理所當然一樣所以我們發現其實有很多延宕的都拿這個當理由而且增加了不少的經費我想這個也是浪費很多也許浪費很多我們的預算這個部分我們還是希望可以稍微"},{"start":9165.253,"end":9171.292,"text":"去注意一下那我們後續也還會追蹤出來我們是用簡略的那另外還有就是像"},{"start":9174.537,"end":9178.7,"text":"96案這個部分雖然我們簡略不過我們希望可以提供一些相關的書面說明比如說像這個復興營區本來今年一定要完工的可是因為他共同承攬的廠商就是機電的廠商他換了一家結果他你就換廠商有沒有罰則因為換了廠商以後造成我們的工程延宕第一他有沒有罰則"},{"start":9201.599,"end":9207.264,"text":"它進度落後這個有沒有法則我們希望在書面報告的時候一併說明清楚另外還有就是99案這個部分我們同意用簡略可是還要再加主決議這個部分我們覺得比較特別的是像我們巨輪校區銀色的新建工程這是在空軍官校的它原來的預算三億兩千多萬"},{"start":9227.13,"end":9232.638,"text":"後來因為廠商倒閉然後變成追加預算因為換了廠商重新招標然後變成追加了大概七千多萬的預算變成四億四千多萬可是這中間有一個問題"},{"start":9243.214,"end":9245.195,"text":"他並不是突然換廠商第一家廠商其實他有執行一部分的而且是基礎基礎是最比較困難還花錢的他執行至少應該有三千多萬了可是換了一家廠商以後不但"},{"start":9260.464,"end":9265.647,"text":"他不用做這些基礎設施他前一家已經做了可是後面又追加了7000多萬等於光是這個工程又追加了1億多這可能是不合理的部分我們也沒有看到比較詳細的說明所以至少這個部分要加一個主決議未來不是說你換了以後我們只能增加預算我覺得這個可能也是一個問題然後101案"},{"start":9287.137,"end":9289.578,"text":"也是一樣的就是這個計畫台南機場的生活銀社新建工程這個也是前面前面那一家廠商倒閉的那一家它同時去標到了我們兩個案子這個高達十幾億的預算可是它就是發生了那你在這個過程當中難道都沒有發現說這個廠商已經有問題因為你如果財務發生這麼嚴重的問題的時候"},{"start":9313.55,"end":9320.032,"text":"其實你在叫你的工人的施作或者你的進度一定會有一些症狀發生可是我們現在沒有辦法在即時的那個處理那前面這個也是零走一千多萬"},{"start":9328.655,"end":9332.797,"text":"他換了廠商全案本來五億三千多萬他又增加了一億六千多萬的預算才又標出去我覺得這個都是我們國防部還有像這樣相關的單位其實我們在這些不但每一件都發生問題而且每一件都追加預算甚至有減相減量這個部分如果沒有全盤的檢討"},{"start":9354.008,"end":9358.369,"text":"我們國防部很難有一個好的我們的不管是銀社也好我們訓場也好我們所有的硬體建設可能會受到很大的影響所以如果再跟我們說我們很多都是作戰急需我覺得都很難講都很難說服大家好就這幾個部分我們希望我們國防部還有我們相關的單位都可以一併去做一個相關的檢討好謝謝那個羅美玲委員"},{"start":9381.141,"end":9410.381,"text":"好謝謝主席第88案我有簡列了300萬最主要的原因是因為說有一些我們不適用的這個營區呢其實早就已經列入國軍營社改建基金的清澈可是我們就有超過10年還沒有移管還沒有移管那比數就高達了這個28處喔那本期認為說大量的這個閒置就是國家資源的這個浪費所以呢希望國防部能夠加速來辦理資產的這個轉移喔引力政府推動國有資產的這個活化好以上謝謝"},{"start":9413.722,"end":9433.208,"text":"黃任委員針對102案的部分說明提到東部和外島相關工程應在地廠商較少相對選擇的受限因此希望國防部未來在尋商的時候更為注意到挑選有能力施作的廠商"},{"start":9433.988,"end":9448.843,"text":"另外就是常常有公安事件的發生 工程的公安所以提醒勿切為了港工而忽略了公安的重要性這個部分提醒一下所以這邊為簡略三千萬"},{"start":9449.904,"end":9471.049,"text":"好 謝謝另外就是103案的部分公安意外對工程進度的影響非常嚴重國軍雖然每一次檢討公安事件還是會品傳這個事件除了去年中美輪延期司令台外"},{"start":9473.429,"end":9477.232,"text":"其實那個軍備局銀色改建我們真的每年都在看這個案子剛剛馬委員提的那些東西"},{"start":9500.791,"end":9517.365,"text":"我坦白講未來我們應該要列個專報就這些延宕後來又追加到底什麼原因要寫出來那你們精進的方法把它列出來否則空有武器裝備銀色一直delay下來這個不是一個方式而且一delay"},{"start":9517.925,"end":9531.65,"text":"又變貴那以台南機場跟空軍官校那個你知不知道那個原來包商跟你們請款之後下包的人叫了鋼材保全公司去站衛兵這個領主委員也有關係這個他們都沒有領到錢"},{"start":9533.166,"end":9558.652,"text":"他領走了三千萬結果他的下包沒有領到錢那你現在又重新招標新的進來我覺得我們有要建立一套機制怎麼樣去輔導新進場的然後跟原來這些受損的下包商能夠有一些方案當然依法律他不用他不用彌補他但在作業當中怎麼樣讓這些真正在這邊做的下包商可以得到一定比方說監督付款然後怎麼樣子否則"},{"start":9559.652,"end":9580.062,"text":"坦白講你們現在工程這些問題樣態慢慢收斂都有一個類似的情形好那個該預算書照我們該宣告所以我再補充宣告一下林毅君委員的第20案跟第23案改組決議合併提出我在這邊做宣告第89案第105案合併減列1000萬以105案為主案第77案78案改組決議合併提出"},{"start":9589.187,"end":9589.328,"text":"我們現在來處理106到109案請說明"},{"start":9597.774,"end":9612.368,"text":"106案至109案為馬文君黃仁及王定宇委員共同關心工程及設施整治計劃工程執行進度議題感謝委員指導本案已向委員口頭或書面說明見請同意第106案預算照列107案檢列4億凍結500萬第108案檢列500萬"},{"start":9621.138,"end":9628.823,"text":"第109案預算照列請知道那個108案你說檢列還是凍檢檢列檢列500萬該檢 黃任委員該檢列500然後109案咧那個預算照列你前面凍檢那麼多你叫我預算照列好啦 我來處理那個黃任委員請說"},{"start":9642.085,"end":9656.03,"text":"所以目前有這個四處的營區和四棟的建築未完成結構的一個補強基本一起提供的報告中提到長榮和中莊營區工程延宕的原因除了設計廠商作業的延宕外"},{"start":9658.211,"end":9683.217,"text":"後址部承辦人更是原因之一本席在處理國防部公務預算的時候就表示過國軍因為職務調動頻繁導致採購人員的交接無法落實所以造成這個委屍的事件不少這點國防部特別要注意到好不好特別簡略五百萬馬洪君委員"},{"start":9683.874,"end":9689.639,"text":"好 謝謝主席107案這個軍博館的部分我覺得非常的離譜因為它從104年行政院核定以後其實更早之前它的預算總金額其實更低如果沒有記錯的話從十幾億、二十幾億到104年核定變成32億6千萬它起承從104年到112年現在已經114年了"},{"start":9712.176,"end":9716.378,"text":"那在第二次行政院在110年3月的時候又核定從32億變成46億6千萬他啟程從112年又延到114年那第三個階段國防部在113年雖然是一樣的經費46億6千萬可是他啟程又延到了115年"},{"start":9737.208,"end":9766.319,"text":"照理說這個軍博館其實它是一個不是很困難的一個建築工程而已可是它可以從104年核定32億到現在變成增加到46億可是其成不斷不斷的往後延現在又延到115年我們不知道原因是什麼那它總共追加了多少因為據說現在的工程進度執行率還不到四成那廠商雖然有罰了一些錢可是它"},{"start":9767.659,"end":9771.46,"text":"問題到底是什麼問題它不是很困難它也沒有什麼樣工廠會受到什麼樣的一個自愛難行的一個條件會受限那在這樣的情況之下我們同意凍結數是500萬可是要把它說明清楚它到底出了什麼問題好 謝謝來處理預算106案預算同意照列107案簡列4億"},{"start":9798.146,"end":9826.039,"text":"凍結五百萬五百萬書面報告經同意後使得凍資一百零八案檢列五百萬那第一百零九案預算同意照列好接下來處理第一百一十案第一百一十案為馬文君委員關切老舊營設整建工程計劃變更平忍議題感謝委員指導以上委員說明見請同意修訂為主決議"},{"start":9828.377,"end":9830.739,"text":"這個部分我們同意他改成組決議可是為什麼會特別提出來這個剛剛主席也有特別提到了我們所有的新安專案全部落後全部喔"},{"start":9843.328,"end":9846.909,"text":"沒有一件是按照既定的那個期程而且全部都追加預算這個部分非常嚴重所以我們在這個組決議裡面要求不得再追加預算還有另外我們要提醒的是基金這個基金是賣主產的其實它是沒有活水進來的你只要花掉就沒有了你現在蓋了那麼多的這些銀色或者像這些我們興建的這些工程"},{"start":9871.354,"end":9874.878,"text":"未來它當要維修或者做其他的要後續保養的時候其實我們基金只要用完就沒有了我們不斷不斷地蓋然後不斷不斷地追加然後不斷不斷地延宕這個對整個基金都會造成很大的影響所以其實它如果沒有收入它很快大概也會倒了"},{"start":9891.118,"end":9901.693,"text":"不是只有其他的那些基金會導而立所以這個部分我們請國防部還有相關的單位一定要重視這個部分這個組決議我們要求不得再追加預算謝謝好那這個是110案"},{"start":9908.922,"end":9935.968,"text":"113改組決議各位委員同仁還有助理同仁組決議的文字趕快送上來都OK了嗎接下來處理第111案林楚英委員的提案來請說明第111案為林楚英委員關切工程專案管理公司管理不當議題感謝委員的指導本案已向委員說明並依部長的指導目前已由各司令部每週"},{"start":9937.088,"end":9963.461,"text":"及國安部每月召開檢討會來管制進度另以要求各單位要記錄各專案工程執行的相關的優良或輸者的事蹟列入我們額後的評選的項目並一定記乎廠商與施工廠商爭議的處理的機制及流程我們把它精簡化提升一個履約爭議的處理的效率建請委員同意預算照列請指導"},{"start":9966.783,"end":9990.651,"text":"其實從部內的預算帶到現在基金的預算本席其實非常關注的就是PCM到底有沒有做好PCM的管理該做的工作那麼現在這個新安專案裡面包括這個工程裡面要不就是像貿易六村是四次流標到現在沒有開標完成要不然就是慈恩二五村的這個有關於專管公司處理不當"},{"start":9992.412,"end":10019.663,"text":"那像這些問題包括昭緯也有關注的我們台南的那個有關於這個部分就是前面的那個倒閉了之後然後現在再來接的這個同胞公司有沒有去照顧原本的下包那怎麼做協調當然我們知道就是說現在來接的這個同胞公司他非常有可能他有他自己的承包商或他工作的下限但是我還是希望要照顧到原本"},{"start":10020.663,"end":10047.876,"text":"這個他們已經施作或者是說有付出財力、人力、工錢等等的這個部分那我希望國防部能夠積極的協調那在這個部分我覺得啦就像胡尹昭委所說的你看包括不論是民進黨執政黨委員或在黨委員都會認為說在這個新安專案裡面確實工程進度或者是PCM管理不當又或者是延宕等等這些部分我覺得是應該要需要一個專報那麼"},{"start":10049.397,"end":10053.799,"text":"我當時要求包括刪減或者是凍結其實都是希望給你們一點壓力那如果說改成主決議能夠改善現在我們所提出來的這些問題的話那我可以同意改主決議但是改了主決議之後是真的要有效力包括我非常關注的就是台南的這個案子趙偉等一下可能也會補充台南跟岡山是同一個案啦是因為同一個"},{"start":10074.087,"end":10077.329,"text":"同一個老闆辦公就這樣跑掉然後錢領走了那麼這顯然很有可能他已經知道是怎麼樣來坑國家的錢或是坑國防部的錢那像這樣的包括負責人不是只是去公佈這個公司而已成為劣跡公司是包括他本人又或者是曾經在他的公司裡面擔任過其他職位的"},{"start":10099.361,"end":10113.792,"text":"又或者是他的親家直屬血腥等等他都很有可能用這個方式就如同詐騙集團一樣再延伸那這個部分我都希望能夠國防部要把它杜絕掉不然的話是真的會讓不是只有國家的錢被坑是連這些廠商的錢都被坑了 對"},{"start":10119.557,"end":10145.269,"text":"好 我們第111案改組決議那請國防部就這些詢問的部分好 回答你們如果準備好專報我就排專報因為這個是一個坦白講通案了啦但是就岡山跟一聯隊這個案子當這個原廠商叫了料HBIN 挖了地基 請了保全錢都沒有付人家"},{"start":10146.499,"end":10164.011,"text":"那如同剛才馬文君委員講的你們後來編列他是在前人的肩膀上繼續做那那一塊的成本到底怎麼去處理那新進駐的廠商跟原來受損的這些下包商有沒有機制去協助這不是軍方的法律責任但能不能去協助"},{"start":10164.691,"end":10192.691,"text":"否則坦白講這些人連保全的費用都沒有付這個是很可惡好不好你們準備好的話我們可以排專報好114項改組決議那現在我們先處理原來已經宣讀的組決議第112案黃仁委員提案的組決議有沒有問題一提案辦理好 照案通過那現在我們要宣讀所有不分基金別我們會照順序還差一案嘛 誰的案那個林楚英委員的案"},{"start":10195.851,"end":10213.53,"text":"這樣子我們休息五分鐘五分鐘後回來宣讀新增的主決議那宣讀新增的主決議現在主決議呢還缺林柱英委員一案尚缺林柱英委員一案那個林委員那個要說明的是不是待會說明那個是不是"},{"start":10215.273,"end":10224.636,"text":"看一下文字好我們待會回來五分鐘後回來先宣讀新增的主決議分別是54-1到54-21還有65-1到65-3"},{"start":10233.4,"end":10247.794,"text":"82-1到82-2112-1到112-3總共新增29案宣讀後我就會開始處理那不管委員有沒有在場我們按照慣例主決議我都會處理好不好好我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":10269.443,"end":10269.823,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10716.175,"end":10741.449,"text":"好 我們休息時間結束 恢復開會請議事人員宣讀新增主決議案 請開始第五十事之一案 近年國內醫院護病比嚴重失衡請各國軍醫院積極利用各種管道招募新進護理人員管制各院急性一般病蟲三班護病比達到衛福部公布之標準提案人 委員黃仁等人第五十事之二案"},{"start":10742.725,"end":10759.095,"text":"海軍應對世海一家未來整體營運策略模式、偽商經營及效益等進行評估,以持續推動世海一家轉型之可行性。提案人為馬文君等人。第五十事之三案,國軍生產及服務作業基金福利及文教事業有關銷貨成本,"},{"start":10761.096,"end":10777.484,"text":"服務費用一般服務費編列一億六百四十三萬八千元照一百一十三年度預算一億九十四萬元增加請該基金遵截支出以利基金營運效能提案人委員黃仁等人第五十四知事案"},{"start":10778.895,"end":10793.897,"text":"請清泉鋼球場考量今年營運成本上升並參酌台中地區球場收費檢討籍球費及會員費收費標準以達到財務自給自足提升經營效益提案人委員陳冠廷等人第五十事之五案"},{"start":10795.322,"end":10816.085,"text":"青年日报社因本自己自主原则,应该筹施转型或者改变经营模式,以增运整体基金收益。提案人委员陈冠廷等人,第五十四至六案,请国军生产及服务作业基金持续强化管考作业,并提升基金营运管理效能。提案人委员徐巧兴等人,"},{"start":10816.645,"end":10839.327,"text":"第五十事之七案,國軍生產及服務作業基金生產事業於一百一十四年度,受軍種委託生產,並供給產品預算數約四十五億三千零七十三萬餘元,因加速產製作業並強化進度管控,滿足國軍戰備需求。體驗人委員王定宇等人。第五十事之八案,"},{"start":10841.021,"end":10864.012,"text":"建議生產事業第205場配合高雄市政府都市發展計畫釋出公中營區迄今尚未完成遷廠予以加強搬遷進度管制及相關生產配套作為原請國防部以三個月內提出書面報告說明相關管控作為提案人委員王定宇等人第五十事之九案請生產事業針對延遲治腳品項管制於114年4月份完成生產"},{"start":10869.194,"end":10882.539,"text":"並截繳軍種以確保部隊戰力之提升並應加強注意生產線作業環境安全及維護員工心緒及權益體驗人員馬文君等人第五實施諮詞案針對205場清廠工程應嚴加督"},{"start":10887.813,"end":10898.923,"text":"督管進度及品質並針對外購關鍵材料研擬配套措施避免貨料不積極影響生產作業提案人為馬文君等人第54支11案"},{"start":10901.345,"end":10919.526,"text":"近年護理人員預算額缺額狀況日益嚴重請國軍醫院積極利用各種管道招募禁用護理人員並於114年8月底前將缺額由20%下降至15%令持續強化留任護理人員提案人為馬文君等人"},{"start":10920.347,"end":10944.762,"text":"第五十四之十二案請各國請各國軍醫院積極利用各種管道招募禁用護理人員管制各院急性一般病床三班戶便比達到會服部公告標準並要求於兩個月內提出改善招募護理人員及流柴等相關配套措施方案之書面報告提案人委員林益君等人第五十四之十三案"},{"start":10946.192,"end":10974.931,"text":"要求國防部應加強該基金醫療事業,應收醫療欠款之清理作業,避免提高呆帳之風險,避利基金財務健全,並要求國防部於二個月內提出書面報告。提案人委員林益君等人,第五十事之十四案,各醫院予以檢討設置專業人員以落實成本管控作為,以提升經營管理成效。提案人委員陳冠廷等人,第五十事之十五案,國軍生產及服務作業基金與醫療事業,"},{"start":10976.713,"end":10991.916,"text":"部分114年度編列各國軍醫院民診處依規定預先提列代賬費用8,629,862.9萬元予以持續加強清理吹收款項以為基金之權益提案人委員陳冠廷等人"},{"start":10993.291,"end":11015.632,"text":"第五十四之十六案,護理人力短缺是世界各國共同之挑戰,我國更因高齡化慢性病及多種疾病照護需求增加,對於照護第一線的護理人力需求更是嚴峻。請國軍醫院積極利用各種管道招募禁用護理人員,以達惠服部公告之標準。提案人委員陳冠廷等人。"},{"start":11016.192,"end":11028.243,"text":"第五十事之十七案海軍應對四海一家未來整體營運策略模式偽商經營及效益等進行評估體驗人委員黃仁等人第五十事之十八案"},{"start":11030.334,"end":11054.014,"text":"114年度國軍生產及服務作業基金醫療事業其中固定資產建設改良擴充之國軍台中總醫院興建醫療大樓計劃113年截至11月預算執行率僅為63.12%原要求於兩個月內提出書面報告提案人委員黃忍等人第五十事之十九案國軍生產及作業服務基金醫療事業107至113年度提出八個固定"},{"start":11058.158,"end":11070.229,"text":"資產建設改良專案計劃要求於兩個月內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告體驗人、委員、黃人等人第54至22經查國軍生產及服務作業基金"},{"start":11074.244,"end":11102.526,"text":"因參考先進鄰近國家照顧官兵眷屬之做法及購物中心規劃引進各內優良品項與提升秉持改善銷售與作業環境及提升作業人員服務意識增進官兵之福利提案人委員馬文君等人第五十四至二十一案國軍生產及服務作業基金醫療事業於一百零七至一百一十三年間陸續提出山君總醫院松山分院興建航空醫學大樓等"},{"start":11103.266,"end":11126.498,"text":"八案固定資產建設改良專案計劃原要求國防部應加強合理估列預算加強計劃之督考必立工程如期如止完成並應要求將相關固定資產建設改良擴充專案計劃明細及後續計劃修訂情形於兩個月內提出書面報告提案人委員林毅君等人第65之一案"},{"start":11127.798,"end":11150.63,"text":"請捲改基金額後參考近年主任收入成長幅度及未來活化規劃妥適編列預算提案人委員黃仁等人第65之二案國防部應積極就控制捲地協調地方政府採取代管之短期活化方式並減少維管經費及巡查人力之負擔益助基金收益提案人委員黃仁等人"},{"start":11152.472,"end":11173.817,"text":"第65之三因應國家安全局列管台北市居安新村及光復新村等處眷村規劃納入改建問題請國防部協助國安局積極溝通並協調各方意見妥適研議後續修法作業以度徵印並服法制提案人委員徐巧欣等人第82之一案"},{"start":11174.717,"end":11195.198,"text":"國防部依據軍事教育條例於113年度設置國防醫學院軍事教育基金建請國防醫學院應積極自籌建教合作收入爭取國科會等政府機關及民間機構研究計畫提升醫學研發量能及成果體驗人委員馬文君等人第82支案"},{"start":11196.096,"end":11225.042,"text":"國防醫學院軍事教育基金114年度預算與服務費用水電費編列9803萬元國防醫學院英尊節核實編列水電費預算以達成本管控成效提案人委員王定宇等人第112之一案俊改基金老舊營舍景建計劃中空軍巨輪校區營舍興建工程及台南機場生活營舍興建工程等二案"},{"start":11226.102,"end":11247.15,"text":"空軍預約辦理解約國防部應完善工程規劃設計內容並妥善安排工程執行優先順序避免因需求增加動用預備費及物價條款辦理工程變更設計等預算增加之情勢提案人為馬文君等人第112之二案"},{"start":11248.03,"end":11274.503,"text":"考量國內營造廠商承作量能,飽和市場缺工缺料情形日益嚴重國防部應針對引改基金財務狀況執行能力及國內營造廠商工作量能妥善安排工程優先順序避免同時進入付款及施作高峰導致基金經費過度負荷排擠該基金其他重要施政所需體驗人委員馬文君等人"},{"start":11276.161,"end":11293.429,"text":"第一百一十二之三案今朝國軍興安專案中田單營區等營區興建工程皆因營建專案管理工時管理不到造成履約之爭議請工軍加強工程的督管作為確實依"},{"start":11295.47,"end":11307,"text":"一期程完工另一約依法向原統包商追緒解約重構價差以確保國軍之權益體驗人委員林楚英等人宣讀完畢"},{"start":11314.189,"end":11324.218,"text":"好 我們新增主決議已經宣讀完畢同樣的 業管單位請注意我大概念的號次我大概只念號次54-1 54-2我念號次"},{"start":11327.02,"end":11345.532,"text":"沒有問題 照案通過如果有文字修正 我們就照文字修正通過但我要詢問在場委員的意見那委員若不在場 我們就照宣讀的通過啦好 總共29個案件 29個主決議我們現在開始進行處理來 54-1一提案辦理好 照案通過 54-2一提案辦理54-3"},{"start":11351.796,"end":11371.463,"text":"照案通過了再來跟委員報告一下因為它這邊倒數第二行最後面原請該社因為這邊沒有說明很清楚不知道哪個社我們建議把它說明清楚是青年日報社原請青年日報社我們因為提案委員不在我們就照文字修正透過"},{"start":11372.935,"end":11391.551,"text":"原請青年日報社這是54之幾3好再來54之4依提案辦理 照案通過54之5依提案辦理 照案通過54之6依提案辦理 照案通過54之7依提案辦理 照案通過54之8"},{"start":11394.639,"end":11423.476,"text":"一提案辦理好 照案通過五十四之九一提案辦理好 照案通過五十四之十一提案辦理好 照案通過五十四之十一一提案辦理照案通過五十四之十二一文字修正後提案辦理好 林議軍委員文字修正有沒有意見好 五十四之十二照文字修正通過五十四之十三一文字修正後提案辦理好 林議軍委員文字修正有沒有意見"},{"start":11425.131,"end":11443.718,"text":"沒有意見好54-13照文字修正後通過54-14依提案辦理好照案通過54-15依提案辦理好照案通過54-16依提案辦理好照案通過54-17依提案辦理照案通過54-18依提案辦理好照案通過54-19依提案辦理好照案通過54-20依提案辦理好照案通過"},{"start":11455.697,"end":11473.528,"text":"再來54-29 還有21 這是21 抱歉21-21 依文字修正後提案辦理這個是林益君召委 那個文字修正有沒有意見沒意見好 54-21 依文字修正後通過再來換到65了來 我們從65-1開始 來 65-1依提案辦理轉通過 65-2"},{"start":11481.132,"end":11485.956,"text":"一提案辦理好 照案通過65-3一提案辦理好 照案通過來 再來到8282是那個軍教軍教的來 82-1一提案辦理好 照案通過82-2一提案辦理好 照案通過82再來到112 引改基金的來 112-1一提案辦理好 照案通過 112-2"},{"start":11507.311,"end":11519.177,"text":"一提案辦理 照案通過一二之三一修正後文字一修正的文字辦理好一二之三因為提案委員不在我們就按文字修正後通過好"},{"start":11526.038,"end":11540.815,"text":"114年度中央政府总预算案附属单位预算关于国防部主管国军生产及服务作业基金国军老旧眷村改建基金国防医学院军事教育基金"},{"start":11542.637,"end":11559.011,"text":"國軍營社及設施改建基金等四項非營業基金案也已審查完略送請財政委員會會診後提報院會請問在場委員院會審議前是否需交由黨團協商"},{"start":11566.567,"end":11584.361,"text":"你這樣子我很可憐你知道嗎你知道我說什麼不用嗎好這個我們送交院會審議前呢不需黨團協商院會審議時須推派一位委員做補充說明請推派"},{"start":11586.141,"end":11606.295,"text":"王定宇推派王定宇委員做補充說明本次預算審查如果預算科目物質或金額調整授權議事人員處理本席要多說兩句話在現在的立法院"},{"start":11607.136,"end":11632.757,"text":"坦白說我們國防外交委員會展現的才真的是委員會中心主義所有議案在這邊審查意見相同不相同充分發言採取協調的方式我們幾乎沒有動用表決然後在行政跟立法立法不同黨派之間可以達成共識讓國家繼續往前推進特別在重要的國防事務上"},{"start":11633.317,"end":11662.757,"text":"所以我常常說我們以身為國防外交委員會的同仁為榮立法院如果叫起綱者按部就班尊重不同黨派的發言其實這樣反而會比較快那我們國防委員會的同仁我們在內心裡面互相給彼此掌聲謝謝我在內心裡面你們的心怎麼那麼開放好我們元月八號九號兩日為一次會大家辛苦了散會"},{"start":11663.097,"end":11663.183,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"158760","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158760","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb587f19984b9365c9f0a56fd3a12bc29fbb2e7e046cfb2de4f71eeae6d87bcf22d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"10:39:01 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请郭部长您好"},{"start":63.291,"end":92.429,"text":"好 部长这个为何产业的期待却在街头矢口那我们这个中钢工会北上抗疫经济部那这个离岸风电国产化的政策让高雄钢铁及金属加工产业由期待变成伤害开发业者的金钱游戏所包装的绿能力件变成产业的追星之痛关键就在于国产化产业政策的执行的不确实所导致的"},{"start":93.19,"end":93.631,"text":"好我們來看這個綠電平台"},{"start":97.231,"end":124.38,"text":"綠電交易平台為何遭到中鋼工會的強烈不滿跟抗議如果今天中鋼公司配合中央人員及產業政策進行投資成立的新達海基投入的離岸風電水下結構政府依照政府自己的承諾務實要求離岸風電的開發業者需符合國產化的比例辦理而且政府沒有重北輕南的產業輔導政策"},{"start":126.201,"end":141.916,"text":"的方向新達海基會如此黯然落幕嗎所以在新達海基他其實是在離岸風電的這個產業當中縱北親南之下離岸風電國產化政策欺負南台灣欺負高雄人的最直接證據"},{"start":143.302,"end":161.296,"text":"好所以呢當然這影響到中鋼工會來抗議綠電平台投資案是基於中鋼公司對離岸風電國產化完全失去信心當然你們講得很好啊你要辯解綠電平台你們講得很棒這可以解決大型企業對綠電採購的觀望所導致綠電無法整平賣出"},{"start":165.499,"end":194.411,"text":"這也解決了中小企業需求綠電買不起整批綠電或者買不到適量綠電所以這個綠電平台由政府坐東5500億採買無法零售的離岸風電進行化整為零銷售給中小企業這其中的風險就是在於歐盟規定2030年前進入歐盟市場所有的產品都必須符合RE100規範但是綠電平台的前期就有沉沒成本"},{"start":195.251,"end":221.741,"text":"好 部長綠電平台如果如你所講它只是一個綠電貿易商一定有利潤你就不一定要讓中鋼集團投入啊中鋼集團已經進不起64億打水漂的星達海基了這一次是5500億啊 部長如果今天真的將你講的那麼有利可圖那你就評估有其他不費的放工股集團來處理可以嗎"},{"start":224.381,"end":242.704,"text":"剛才在回答前面兩位委員的說法如果中鋼的董事長沒有辦法跟工會充分的溝通那麼讓工會可以屏息掉他們的疑慮我說過了中鋼隨時可以退出這個平台"},{"start":243.956,"end":270.975,"text":"你怎麼會讓中鋼來處理呢你不考量 你自己不考量放工苦集團嗎你為什麼硬壓著中鋼要做這件事情如果有利可圖啊你的財政部下 交通部下交通部下的中華電信啊財政部下的也有啊你為什麼不找其他可以資源比較好的如果像你這麼講的那麼好那我不敢再講說叫台電再叫中油了啦他們已經昆鼠黑鼠連連啦你是不是有點誤會了我剛才在講"},{"start":274.505,"end":285.814,"text":"中鋼雖然是發起人他也可以退出那你就直接找你直接就找竟然有疑慮啊你就直接找其他發起人中鋼配合就好你為什麼要讓他做主導呢"},{"start":286.701,"end":305.353,"text":"沒有啊 你為什麼要做主導你就找那個中華電信來啊我其他經濟部的其他辦公股我才直接的其他投入就好你為什麼讓他做發起人所以這個根本就是你們自己已經在國產化政策讓我這個中南部的業者讓新達海基整個信心崩盤嘛"},{"start":307.472,"end":333.421,"text":"所以可不可以有其他部會的放工股集團來處理直接回應你為什麼一定要押著中鋼來做這件事情我沒有押著中鋼做這件事情剛才你就講啊如果中鋼的董事長不能信服中鋼是你們行政院指派的他就提名於你啊你為什麼自己對於這樣子不知道說這個原解鄰還是蓄鄰人啊你們放任在整個離岸風電國產化當中讓我中南部的業者"},{"start":334.701,"end":343.666,"text":"這樣的一個受傷慘重然後你要逼著中鋼在已經六十四億打水漂了再投資個五千五百億當然你會說五千五百億我們大家來投資啊六十四億就在那邊欸整個沒有欸這政府這個政策殺人欸"},{"start":350.814,"end":370.054,"text":"可不可以由其他部會辦公股集團來處理你為什麼要壓著這個中綱來做那可以 如果委員是這麼堅持的話沒有問題好可以 那你就由其他部會的辦公股集團來處理喔那你們就繼續來做就他退出就可以啦我們這個公股平台已經建立了嘛"},{"start":370.796,"end":399.27,"text":"他退出就可以啦你這句話越講越矛盾什麼叫做他退出可是你壓著他做的嘛我沒有壓著他做好那你說那你要請誰做既然他抗議的話那你要請誰做都有人可以做來你說竟然都會有立可圖啊你說中油嗎中油總董事長在這邊還是台電你講啊誰會公家機關會說有一個政策沒有有一個政策你不講說哪一個主管機關有一個主管機關會自己跳出來做的"},{"start":400.219,"end":427.928,"text":"我從來沒聽過我從來沒聽過24年的立委七屆的服務了我從來沒聽過不是你們指令下去給中鋼他會做嗎所以你就講啊如果你覺得中鋼人家反彈那麼大那你覺得有誰來啊我這麼多的放光股公司嘛所以你要來評估嘛好多久時間你要評估其他的放光股公司你要多久來評估出其他的放光股公司來做主要的發起人中鋼不要"},{"start":429.963,"end":455.757,"text":"我們到今年的4月其他的公司都會入股了4月4月那主要發起人是誰還是要中鋼嗎來 胡文莊胡市長他已經是存在的一個公司了嘛發起人跟其他我其他加入股份的是不一樣我加18我加0.5%那也是在加跟我加了60%跟我加了49%加51%是不一樣的啊"},{"start":458.078,"end":471.863,"text":"我想委員你所爭議的是中鋼的權益嘛當然啊 對不對你已經64億打水漂了而且是你們中央政策放水耶放水讓北部的業者自己所以我們的離岸風電國產化是假的是反而我們救了誰的國產化救了韓國的鋼鐵業的國產化哪有什麼國內的國產化"},{"start":482.639,"end":508.874,"text":"好 我們繼續檢討 所以這個題目你要回答我由其他部會的放工股集團來處理 可以嗎我們就在4月就全部進來了好 OK 來 那我們來檢討還有沒有辦法就國產化綠能發電的本質它有幾個特性綠能都是運用現有的可循環天然資源進行發電第二個 不論風光地熱等綠能天然資源的調查才是關鍵第三 綠能發電它是一個財務工程"},{"start":509.394,"end":536.346,"text":"它是道道地地的財務槓桿的遊戲而非高科技的工程離岸風電更甚如此第四個國家公告的開發領選的規則是有鑑別性的選商的是要符合資格才可以進來的而第五個歐盟向WTO申訴的行為本質是商業競爭行為這個是我對於郭部長您上來你沒有馬上認知到歐盟向WTO申訴這是一個商業競爭行為好"},{"start":537.907,"end":558.437,"text":"那沒關係本席可以理解國家重視WTO的考量不限制離岸風電第三階段第三期3-3國產化的要求我只能理解我不能接受但是3.3期之前的國產化規定國家應該寸步不讓好等一下我把這幾個規定講清楚那部長你來回應"},{"start":560.197,"end":569.344,"text":"針對三之一 三之二的國產化 您是不是還會堅持我就從這邊的 這個是你們的遴選規定 這都是你們的規定出來的為扶持國內產業與關鍵能源的政策 因此制定了遴選規則明訂需達到申請容量60%的國產化單一風場的500MW的規模則水下基礎需要20座的需要國產化的方案"},{"start":585.095,"end":605.989,"text":"好 再來有這個零選規定還有第二個特色分店場的開發業者與投標前需提供國廠化的供應商的名單及零選規則且明擺著即使我要更換優先順序的廠商也僅限於選商報告內所載的供應商 即使我要換"},{"start":607.29,"end":616.379,"text":"我也必須在這個給你們的報告商中的廠商去換他是有鑑別性的符合條件的好那國家離岸風電水下結構產業狀況我就要為我大高雄南台灣講話九大工項"},{"start":623.486,"end":635.097,"text":"24家的業者都在高屏區只有一家在台中 台塑重工在雲林其他都在高雄屏東能夠百分百的執行離岸風電水下結構所以國產化的技術團隊是沒問題的好"},{"start":638.18,"end":666.229,"text":"那你人員需求綁架的政府的公權力嗎高雄的金屬加工及扣件業者現在中央產業發展政策投入巨額的資金每一家動輒都失業這是中小企業至今卻顆粒未收遭到開發商各種理由啊說我們不適合規範排除啦極短的交期啊本來四五個月應該要完成就要求國內者要六到九月這樣就說我們國內無產製這都是政府沒有去挺業者"},{"start":666.889,"end":668.631,"text":"這樣進而就讓開發商來規避國產化的要求所以當初經濟部說要組成離岸風電國家隊進軍東亞風電市場如今高雄的業者卻是哀鴻遍野"},{"start":682.146,"end":692.339,"text":"這是道道地地的政策殺人莫勝於此所以我對於你說你要3.3啊這個放棄國產化我真的是大步以為然那整個我中南部整個都是真的不知道怎麼講了投資的數十億的設備就方位在那邊然後整個的大的碼頭中鋼不做民間來做"},{"start":700.588,"end":723.875,"text":"就是真的積極的在找訂單好 但是不破網禮安風電第三階段的第一期跟第二期的國產化政策會不會務實執行維持60%的國產化比例部長請回答政府的立場就是我們凡是答應的事情就是會做到所以三之一 三之二國產化政策會務實執行60%的國產化比例嗎"},{"start":728.854,"end":756.364,"text":"我們當然是 這個是以前的規定就必須要遵守好 31 32 還是維持百分之六十的國產化是嗎 第三遍再問一次我已經回答過了所以是是還不是請你直接把這句話完整去 這句話太重要了請你如果同意附送一次經濟部支持李岸峰第三階段第一期第二期國產化政策維持百分之六十的國產 講一遍"},{"start":759.144,"end":761.246,"text":"我這邊是為我中南部的業者發聲啊你一上來就是屈服於 怯懦於整個一個國際遊戲規則所有的開發商集結起來要欺負我台灣欺負我台灣的國產化 你竟然接受"},{"start":776.676,"end":802.515,"text":"好 那至少3G323G32我一路了解我國產化的政策你不可能比本席更了解整個的業者這多少家24家都在高頻欸整個就是機械錢是數十億的機械錢 學看錢欸講過了 你剛才在講的所以請你附送一遍部長 附送一遍我一定要得到你這句話否則我就不下台我今天就不離開這個主席台"},{"start":806.246,"end":816.87,"text":"妳知道妳多可惡嗎妳知道妳的3.3期的說這個屈服於這種國際的遊戲競爭來欺壓國內的國產化業者妳就冒然的說妳要放開3.3的這個國產化那我說要24家的業者真的是血本無歸啊所以妳今天是這麼的不知道明妳拿到要在WTO裡面留下說中華民國被WTO告的這個結論嗎所以妳要因應啊"},{"start":833.297,"end":844.868,"text":"那是因為你沒有方法你要因應啊至少回歸我講過了 我剛才講過三之一 三之二我們的條件沒有改啊什麼條件國產化條件是什麼你剛才講的什麼條件啊你什麼條件講啊你講就是國產化多少條件你不知道嗎你做一個不知道國產化的比例是多少嗎講剛才講了60%嘛好 OK繼續"},{"start":856.159,"end":875.999,"text":"好繼續 另外不好意思主席不好意思主席讓我再把這句話因為實在是太可惡了好既然這樣第二個喜慕立信始於落實離岸封建的第三期的第三階段的第一期精靈選合發的開發業者如右表這些這五個風場全部是你合併的三之一"},{"start":876.599,"end":887.605,"text":"其中海勝風場的由豐瑞開發它是由台電中油也投資將近股權到40%的股權按照規定投標的這個規範及計畫書的承諾務實執行國產化的政策60%中油的董事長也在經濟部長您剛才講說要60%那個中油董事長你來承諾吧"},{"start":902.694,"end":908.959,"text":"時間到了不好意思這個你一定要講清楚因為這是有關我國產化請你簡短能不能維持60%的這個國產化的要求你不要告訴我你不涉入這個經營權你已經40%的股份了你已經可以只派董監事了"},{"start":931.596,"end":956.308,"text":"你已經有董經事在裡面,你跟我講說你不涉入經營的一個建議甚至你的主張,這我是不能接受的你是在騙外人,你不要騙人家大話是,委員好,那個海勝風場中央公司佔15%的股權我們有派一席董事,那麼在國產化的這個規定上我們會指示我們的指派的董事呢,在這個合資公司裡面做監督"},{"start":958.177,"end":970.878,"text":"所以呢 會不會維持主張60%的國產化就依照國家的政策來辦理對 而且是你們的計畫書喔我沒有額外你們的計畫書就要這樣承諾要求好 謝謝 以上好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158757","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158757","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb5813dbd910fd662c2d9b82b4e80112db252e7e046cfb2de4f7c1ddeb1cac72fbc55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"10:06:57 - 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去年我們有三變的風態造成的國家的虧損就只有六十四億這個 這是這個虧損六十四億 你看一個錯誤的政策對國家影響有這麼大啊 一月三號中間的這個元剛教幹部啊 總工會起來陳情他們問一個很重要的問題 今天 這邊有五個 我問你"},{"start":83.159,"end":110.548,"text":"這64億的這個虧損中鋼全部要吞下去嗎?一間扛起嗎?這對中鋼合理嗎?就公司法來講啦這是他的子公司嘛當然他要扛起來啊對啊那些人做結策的人要付錢嗎?中鋼很可憐耶我看去年早上股票還有23塊多耶我剛剛上去看上禮拜跌破二字頭剛剛剩18點多耶"},{"start":113.386,"end":137.477,"text":"這是多輸喔 第一個 國家輸喔我們有20%的股份所以國家就輸了嘛 對不對第二個 員工很多人買了很多中鋼的股票那是他的貼紙的關財本 他說那是寡財本耶大幅的縮水第三個 130幾萬的股民國家輸中鋼的員工輸130幾萬的股民輸結果政府現在有沒有人負責 拍拍屁股"},{"start":142.571,"end":166.446,"text":"叫中綱負責嗎?這什麼東西要負責?就公司法,就公司法而言就是中綱要負責中綱,還是要找中綱的當事人跟中經理,還有經濟部的,那時候的經濟部、行政院都要負責啊這個要責任啊,不然他要做不對的事情都,都很可憐,股民的,我跟你講現在都有股民搞不好都要告你們背信罪啦怎麼說呢?"},{"start":168.948,"end":186.085,"text":"不是,你害人害成這樣,現在還在跌呢?報告委員,我想我們就經營跟工作來源工會,事業有專攻,企業的這個決策是由董事會負責"},{"start":187.722,"end":208.761,"text":"對不對 所以補定的意思很清楚嘛所以補定的意思就是中間的董事會跟董事長總理要負責的責任董事會對公司的經營做出了一個原則上面的這個決策以後董事長總經理依照董事會的這個決策來實施嘛所以補定 你這個補定而已你認為這個事情的責任要怎麼追"},{"start":210.68,"end":222.098,"text":"損害這麼嚴重誰要做這個我們當然是要釐清他為什麼會造成這個樣子然後再從他的過程裡面看有沒有需要我們搞過去的部分現在兩個問題嘛我剛才問你第一個"},{"start":224.862,"end":250.504,"text":"這64億中鋼就吞下去嘛教練一直看他中鋼要負責的嘛對不對那這個公不公平這是第一個問題損害有多大第二個就是責任責任的歸屬嘛你說要檢討嘛對不對你如果還要我們檢討這個事情報告委員這個不是用這樣子來衡量啦齁你看看英特爾是美國發明半導體的公司也賺了那麼多的錢但是在去年虧損那麼大你說應該要追究誰的問題"},{"start":251.464,"end":267.705,"text":"公司經營不能夠這樣討論啦但是我們認為我們當然有責任去看中鋼為什麼會虧損這件事情到底是出在哪裡下一次再有類似的情形我們就去改善這個事情是不是中鋼沒有弄應該不是吧"},{"start":269.653,"end":289.985,"text":"他就是推國產化嘛 對不對推國產化嘛 叫星達海基國產化的東西做不出來嘛 對不對所以才會這64億才會虧損嘛 是不是這樣那你的國產化可能沒有錯可是你為什麼當初沒有很詳細的很細密的去做這件事情所以政府 三百萬坪出境敵責任政治政府都完全沒有責任嗎報告委員"},{"start":291.36,"end":306.471,"text":"策略是正確的但是達不到策略的目標的話應該去檢討執行的過程有沒有錯誤啦我想這個你應該是同意這樣說法那我在看因為我們後來事後檢討是因為他的學籍曲線太慢"},{"start":307.432,"end":325.623,"text":"第二個新達港的這個港的這個深度不夠但是這個風電的這個市場已經改變非常大就是我們的進步太慢跟不上這個時代的改變所以這個是作為我們下一次再投資的時候我們必須要衡量"},{"start":326.857,"end":351.163,"text":"五年以後十年以後的這個技術環境到達哪裡我們能不能夠進入所以損害已經造成了這個怎麼去彌補這個虧損不要只有中鋼員工跟國民吞下去第二個你剛講的嘛好好去檢討要趕快檢討啦我們現在是就這個部分那從這個星島海基的這個錯誤政策或者說你剛講的執行力不利造成這個虧損來講下一個更嚴重了"},{"start":354.144,"end":362.6,"text":"你剛才說不強迫啊現在台製電台製電這個事情演算到什麼程度你剛才說不強迫問題是中港一直一千萬已經丟下去了是不是"},{"start":364.687,"end":387.327,"text":"我的了解 我知道的內幕是 中綱下面都已經空出來他都已經開始在組織化 已經人力啊什麼辦公室都找啦中綱已經被你們唆命要做啦我跟委員報告 我也有親自跟這個黃董事長講如果你們跟工會沒有辦法解釋得很清楚沒有溝通得很詳細 你全部退出"},{"start":387.907,"end":408.664,"text":"也全部退出沒有問題沒有問題我先跟亂講白紙黑字喔我先跟亂進來的話沒有問題你已經說了只是中綱如果董事長跟總工會這邊跟他們的員工溝通大家沒有答應他們是隨時可以退出行不行是的包括那一千萬可以撤回沒有問題沒有問題好這是第一個第二個"},{"start":409.839,"end":434.773,"text":"這個平臺 這個綠電平臺 我一定不會跟你要求過你台電之前有綠電平臺 你就好好用台電你為什麼要去成立這個新的第二個 第二個很嚴重啊 我跟你講你一直保證說不會虧錢 對不對我一定會知道 台積電通貨面對台積電 綠電公司要賣一坨五塊嘛 對不對他都不買了嘛那你想不想 去年我去查113年我們短過電價 風電短過電價一坨一坨這個"},{"start":441.581,"end":451.364,"text":"113年綠電的短過電價是多少4.6元4.5元將近4.6元我們用短過電價一邊去簽20年還是25年是4.5元到4.6元你買台積電5塊台積電沒得買對不對那你現在你跟我講你去買你會比去年的短過電價高還是低"},{"start":467.762,"end":473.039,"text":"如果你比他高那就台電去買就好啦這個等過電價就是台電去買的價格嘛台電現在也不要這個價格啊"},{"start":476.603,"end":503.037,"text":"你現在不會虧欠 保證現在兩個事情嘛第一你要保證你的價格不會比這個原來的短貨電車高嘛是不是 這是第一嘛你今天可以做這個保證嗎第二個就是我說的你要先找到買家你才能夠賣喔要不然的話你現在一直都不曉得買家在哪裡你簽什麼MOU都不算喔你KU要先打出來喔哪一個企業要買你的電你說聯電啦 什麼東和 東和鋼鐵都要買對不對MOU都不算"},{"start":506.606,"end":531.424,"text":"這幾間公司一定要給他簽,你買多少電有硬幣,有買家我才能夠去買不然買一百塊錢就是買了之後銷不出來嘛對不對這跟台電現在的狀況是一樣的嘛那以後這個平台買了一堆電沒有買家到後來就是叫中鋼去用,中華電信去用,中油去用嘛現在中鋼的股票現在會落嗎?為什麼那股票會跌?"},{"start":532.654,"end":542.302,"text":"在新台海這一關就是為了這些過電平台啊你要趕快去踩煞車啊好那今天委員既然這樣講我想我已經答應說讓他退出嘛他明天會不會股價會不會漲"},{"start":544.312,"end":570.807,"text":"會不會漲啊 這個因素已經沒有了來來 拭目以待啦 今天部長說講了那當然你要打 你講的話要能夠落實喔不然你公共的你後面又叫一聲叫中綱不能退喔這也是國會殿堂所以我講的就是我必須要去執行的事情所以我再講 我再講一次中綱如果沒有辦法跟他的這個國會的同跟他這個工會的同仁做充分的溝通"},{"start":571.767,"end":588.213,"text":"那麼他隨時可以推出這個平台部長今天做了很鄭重的宣布我想中鋼很多的員工現在應該是股長叫好的包括那一百三十幾萬的股民我就看部長這個保證以後股票還沒跳起來馬上檢視好不好好 謝謝謝謝委員我問一個自己的大事我上次邀請你去我自己考察"},{"start":594.835,"end":618.602,"text":"你當場有 我們有提到我們家裡是棒球的這個園鄉 很有名的就是卡農你當場也講說你們會去認養跟幫助嘛 對不對那現在達成了怎麼樣的進展現在就是由台糖公司來這個協助嘉義大學的這個棒球隊怎麼樣來協助 至少兩個事情要做啊"},{"start":618.942,"end":635.485,"text":"就是第一個要不要冠名 例如說冠 你看你有很多嘛 你台電都有球隊 例如說冠名 冠名冠名喔 台灣糖業這個第一個冠名 第二個我們有嘉義 這個卡通有棒球場嘛嘉義大學有這個棒球場 黑台鎮有這個棒球場對不對"},{"start":636.835,"end":647.705,"text":"還是做怎麼樣的幫忙我們就先把球隊然後冠名這是第一個階段第二個階段才會協助他們怎麼樣訓練提升他的戰績這樣"},{"start":649.83,"end":668.735,"text":"謝謝喔 所以從今天開始嘉義的不只是有名的Cannon嘉義大學的這個棒球隊全世界有名 不是台灣喔是 這個你可以問嘉義大學的校長也可以問我們台塘的董事長我們都已經 這個都已經形成了好 那就是有台塘嘉義大學棒球隊了是不是是謝謝 以後要盡量怎麼幫忙"},{"start":671.536,"end":683.443,"text":"這個對整個嘉義不是只有棒球 整個體育會有很大的一個發展台糖也做了一件很重要的事情你們投入體育 你看人家中流都有球隊中友台電都有了以後恭喜台糖也有一個好的球隊謝謝委員資助"}]}},{"id":"158751","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158751","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb583a141df012fae8aba56fd3a12bc29fbb2e7e046cfb2de4f7d00c4a962c37c3975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"10:03:32 - 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他告訴我說除非縣政府願意接管 否則他們是不願意來執行的那我覺得這一點是非常的不可行喔 也不可取 那我在這裡拜託部長繼續追蹤這個案件 那接下來呢我想要請教部長有關於陳"},{"start":115.16,"end":127.809,"text":"這個綠電平台台灣智慧電能初期是由中鋼成立那到現在為止有很多販官股都已經被經濟部拉來一起投資了部長知道是哪一些販官股嗎我們現在這個這個是由這個中鋼他發起的啦那販官股的部分大概跟這個"},{"start":140.861,"end":167.203,"text":"反觀股大概就是有綠電需求的是我們主要希望有綠電需求的反觀股能夠加入據本席所知有耀華玻璃ITIC中華電信中油台灣高鐵跟國發基金那本席好奇的是這些反觀股是真的自願的嗎它是自願來的還是是政策所比"},{"start":168.323,"end":172.51,"text":"報告委員我們經濟部的態度是這樣的就是說不強迫"},{"start":173.851,"end":201.948,"text":"不會強迫他們來參加啦就是有需求歡迎他加入因為我們建立這個平台是要解決小額然後沒有這麼長20年的需求的這些讓他們來加入那據本席所知包括國發基金包括ITIC包括耀華玻璃他們都不需要大量的這個綠電很顯然跟政策就是所逼有些微的關係因為如果是自願的"},{"start":202.868,"end":214.896,"text":"為什麼前兩天這個中鋼的工會他就來台北抗議他們覺得經濟部強迫中鋼要投資這個售電平台甚至影響到了這個中鋼的股價"},{"start":218.078,"end":239.816,"text":"部長會不會是因為台電已經賠的夠慘了所以這個拉台自電就是來約這些所有的國營企業一起來分擔風險因為所有的員工都很擔心他們的公司會不會步上台電的後塵是不是請部長說明一下可以這個部分我要跟委員報告第一個我們絕對沒有強迫"},{"start":242.092,"end":250.554,"text":"這些公司加入這樣的一個收電平台這是第一件事情我必須要澄清的因為中鋼的總工會他就說台製電恐成乾坑啊他們擔心他們這個員工的權益會受影響您覺得呢我認為這樣啦這是溝通的問題啦就是說中鋼的這個經營階層必須要跟工會再溝通啦因為工會可能是誤解所以他才會有這樣的一個說法"},{"start":270.117,"end":295.742,"text":"部長如果是誤解是最好您知道中鋼有多少員工嗎一萬多名員工但是我認為這件事情一定是誤解沒有溝通的很好所以我要求中鋼的董事長要跟他們充分的溝通那我再問一下部長您知道中鋼的股東人數有多少嗎"},{"start":297.598,"end":301.627,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告我跟中綱的董事長我有跟他講"},{"start":302.745,"end":326.832,"text":"你們隨時可以退出所以這個我跟部長提醒一下中鋼的股東人數有130萬人那如果加入售電平台造成中鋼的嚴重虧損的話無意識將這個政策的風險轉嫁於這個百萬的股民跟這個中鋼的員工生計之上這個是完全是誤會啦報告委員"},{"start":328.499,"end":347.433,"text":"他們把這個事情大概誤會了很大所以我認為這件事情就是溝通再溝通持續繼續溝通到他們能夠了解我們支持你們溝通但是本席想知道的是成立全新的購電平台的必要性是什麼"},{"start":348.855,"end":366.715,"text":"購電平台就是服務小額但是沒有長期需求的因為台電他在2021年就已經有成立這個電力交易平台了這不是疊床架屋嗎這個差別在哪裡呢不是疊床架屋台電的就是必須要簽20年25年"},{"start":369.689,"end":384.722,"text":"長期的這個購電平台是讓業者小額的他隨時可以買隨時可以可以不買那我再請問一下部長這是在補過去的過去的這個方法補出的地方 根據經濟部的規劃台智電將統包銷25年容量約40億度電總金額至少5500億元那部長目前台智電預計每度電價格"},{"start":397.313,"end":403.325,"text":"幾元呢 售價幾元呢 這個都誇大其詞 報告委員你如果有必要 我們親自去跟你報告"},{"start":404.583,"end":411.127,"text":"讓你非常清楚因為這個我認為是以何傳惹現在都弄到讓委員來這邊質詢了大家現在擔心的是台智電會不會在政策壓力之下被迫高價買綠電然後低價賣出造成虧損不可能確定不可能如果我甚至於我們可以大家勸一個MOU如果他買不到不要來找我們"},{"start":431.619,"end":438.722,"text":"那部長我可不可以請教一下台製電到底什麼時候可以開始受電什麼時候才可以打到損一兩瓶呢他不會虧損他不會虧損你可以幫他掛保證嗎你這樣子我都為您擔心了不用為我擔心這個是我的專業"},{"start":452.712,"end":471.884,"text":"那我必須要講啦絕對不能把台電的財務黑洞轉嫁給新的受建平台把問題丟給販官股的企業跟民營調整能源配比能源政策才是釜底抽薪的辦法好不好 本席建議部長謝謝委員指教 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158756","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158756","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb58b7bcfe48dc933ff59b82b4e80112db252e7e046cfb2de4f7d3c8be10e344e7af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"09:53:26 - 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我們請次長跟民航局長陳次長還有何局長委員好 謝謝次長跟局長其實高雄機場我們這一陣子增加了很多的航班航線謝謝民航局其實都很大力的幫忙"},{"start":30.202,"end":41.281,"text":"那這一陣子其實我還做了很多的守航我還去日本岡山做守航回高雄還從高雄做守航到越南復國島"},{"start":42.947,"end":62.904,"text":"那本來泰國清邁首航正好六月份行程衝到我很想去所以沒有做到下個月我還會做高雄到熊本的首航到熊本去所以其實這一陣子當然民航局幫我們很多的忙我們先表示感謝那當然就是"},{"start":64.298,"end":87.427,"text":"我高雄的需求越來越多那當然需要再加強的就會越多所以我也經常跟局長煩不過就是說這個都是為了高雄好那為了我們的機場可以更順暢所以就會再悠巧的更多所以也麻煩次長跟局長"},{"start":88.507,"end":116.323,"text":"就這個部分其實今天我還會要求高雄機場有機會公事化的事所以這個也麻煩部長今天沒來幫我也跟部長轉達一下這個其實非常的重要我們先看這個停機過夜空間的問題我不懂因為就是目前我比較仔細的去查就是我們停車位有48席"},{"start":118.715,"end":135.619,"text":"那現在可以停的有36席那現在有在停的有26然後呢你再想一想就是後來我們航廈要再蓋那將來航廈202731席203239變成41跟47席比現在的48席還少"},{"start":147.492,"end":167.347,"text":"那我一直在想說我們其實我也跟局長要求跟拜託就是我們要想很遠這16年的施工期太長那我在中間到底有哪一些可以改變哪一些可以去加強的所以就這個停車空間坦白講"},{"start":168.601,"end":196.332,"text":"我們明天會再去看那明天會再去看遠東那兩架停了很久的飛機一直都沒有移走那遠東已經就沒有了就已經關掉了關掉了,他的飛機又停在我們的停機坪這不是很慘嗎那桃園機場公司已經把它移走了那我們高雄我本來還以為停一架結果還停了兩架"},{"start":198.533,"end":223.914,"text":"所以像這個停車空間是不是請局長跟我們解惑一下到底是怎麼樣才會有更大的停車空間謝謝委員的敦促我想在那個機坪的部分我們高雄機場有48個機坪那基本上就像委員所講的過去來講他會有12個席位他是認為說這12個機坪不能用"},{"start":225.936,"end":251.19,"text":"那在這一段時間我們重新盤整就是說這12個席位裡面有兩個大的機坪是供遠東用那這兩個大的我們會去做調整可能我們在短期內我們就會把它做調整把這兩個大機坪可能把遠東的飛機拉開會把它做成四個小機坪兩大變成四小什麼時候有機會完成我們會盡快來處理"},{"start":252.831,"end":268.645,"text":"就是說我們現在確定了我們就會來做這個動作把它拉開然後把機坪做這樣就可以增加4個停車空間對 至少增加2個停車空間對 2個就給遠東那剛剛講了12個裡面有2個大機坪是這樣那另外有一席是供EMS用的"},{"start":269.325,"end":289.925,"text":"就是那個緊急醫療後送的專機用那另外有一席這個停車位是機位它是因為有損壞一席兩席還好我看到的是差十席那剩下的八席就是我們檢討以後它可能是一些動線其實它是可以彈性調整使用"},{"start":290.585,"end":302.374,"text":"是的所以這樣講起來其實原本的48席真正不能用的大概是4席那裡面有8席是可以依時段或者是運用情形彈性調整所以整個來講應該是我們檢討以後會有44席是可以運用"},{"start":305.736,"end":326.105,"text":"然後至於在施工期間這邊有提到因為施工期間因為它是滑行道要北移所以有一些機坪這個登機樑梯的作業所以會有巴西會被影響那可是因為我們剛剛講我們有一些偵檢然後另外這個消防西側消防班西側部分我們也會在短期內時間有限謝謝局長就是說我剛聽到可以辨識的是洗"},{"start":331.167,"end":355.772,"text":"我就心裡充滿了喜悅以前沒有去要求大家都沒有都忽視了這些問題那今天我們正式的要求那局長也已經有預作準備也打算就說我們有可能先變成試洗除了緊急除了其他的特殊用途之外那遠東也會盡快把它移走所以"},{"start":357.185,"end":381.199,"text":"我覺得這對小港機場高雄機場是好事所以這個就要特別感謝局長盡快完成好不好因為其實我這一陣子拜訪了十幾家的航空公司誰跟我反應我就不講但是也有航空公司跟我反應就是他要停機的空間但是沒有所以他就進不到高雄了"},{"start":382.748,"end":410.305,"text":"所以這再再都會影響到高雄的經營的問題所以我想提供局長跟市長一個概念就是我們高雄演唱會經濟我們高雄現在這麼多的科技大廠到高雄來為什麼你知道嗎因為我們的市長其實秦邁市長有跟我提過我們就是很有生意去邀請人來你要什麼來我盡量跟你配合你有什麼需求我盡量來幫你設想"},{"start":412.628,"end":426.794,"text":"今天如果是一個公司,他要來A城市,我們高雄市我們是這種態度要去B城市,我都說不完心境啊,我也不一定,你要來,你要來照頂數啊這樣那個心態,你要想他會去對他"},{"start":433.191,"end":461.047,"text":"所以其實我們高雄這一陣子進步這麼大就是也謝謝我們齊邁市長事實上我們就是用這個態度在迎接科技大廠在迎接演唱會城市演唱會主辦單位所以這樣子我們才會跑這麼快那相對的就是香港機場高雄機場我希望態度決定高度"},{"start":462.916,"end":486.536,"text":"格局決定結局我覺得小港機場、高雄機場會不一樣還有很大的成長的空間我們看第二頁你可以看到桃園機場它的網站裡面這個字太小了什麼客運量、客貨量那包括那個CO2那個包括節能減碳"},{"start":488.315,"end":515.023,"text":"這些都已經在思考了有很多都已經在思考了我不知道我們高雄機場這些問題有都思考了嗎那有一個簡單的概念就是說當時在考慮桃園機場公司化的時候我想其實也有考慮到高雄機場公司化我知道這件事情不是很好做但是我認為這是一個好的方向"},{"start":516.845,"end":545.355,"text":"高雄機場,其實你現在比較機場公司化之後第一,員工的薪水也提高啦這個就是對員工來講也是一個利己的好處啦第二個,我剛才看那個監管分離港務公司跟航港局其實以前就是一個單位嘛,不會分開嘛其實我上個禮拜去參加港務公司一個物流公司的一個上樑的典禮"},{"start":546.55,"end":574.524,"text":"我聽到港務公司說我們港務公司集團我說這聽起來很有大氣也很有魄力港務公司集團其實你看台北港、雞南港、台中港、九龍港這真的很公司化之後業務的壓力公司的活力"},{"start":576.681,"end":603.223,"text":"坦白講真的有進步所以我就一直在思考高雄機場有沒有機會公司化那包括法治人士業務財務等等這個其實104年的時候桃園機場公司他們有做過可行性評估那我也跟局長反應過很多次就是說我高雄希望有接駁機"},{"start":605.185,"end":633.108,"text":"我們高雄人如果要來投降基座,回去出國40年,有沒有方便?我們要多行李,大車小車我們要坐輕輕車,沒有就坐捷運去高鐵站高鐵站再坐到投降,投降再坐捷運,沒有再坐輕輕車多大包小包的行李,半山多而已,來到投降所以如果有機會有接駁機的話"},{"start":635.515,"end":656.964,"text":"事實上我們就在高雄機場就登機可以省時間,可以省行李,這樣半山過年我覺得這個如果高雄機場有用心去思考我認為不是不可能做得到如果說,反正就隨時臨,有沒有都沒關係這樣就都沒有了"},{"start":660.8,"end":677.389,"text":"所以其實這陣子我再強調一次我很感謝民航局坦白講局長經常被我煩東煩西也解決了不少的問題我們也先表示感謝因為他們說有幫我們做我們要先感謝這樣大家做比較高興但是這個不一樣的翻轉我想這是一個"},{"start":686.698,"end":701.508,"text":"很重大的思考所以我今天也很正式的提出來就是說高雄機場公司化的問題我希望交通部跟民航局可以慎重的思考甚至其他的"},{"start":702.726,"end":717.571,"text":"類似港務公司跟航港局現在其實穩妥得很好監管分離 政企分離其實這是一個未來的走向所以希望說民航局可以正式地做一下思考 好不好"},{"start":720.342,"end":738.004,"text":"跟委員報告,這個部分我們在研議,因為淘機成立的時候我也在交通部然後當初有他成立的背景,然後港公司成立的方式也不一樣那他大概就是屬性不同,不過我想這個都是一個可以評估的議題我知道,我們今天是雨中心長,還是非常慎重"},{"start":740.106,"end":760.237,"text":"希望說我們高雄機場可以增加很多很多很好的很大的效率所以我長期在看我們高雄機場的所有的航班所有的機場的改變的發展所以我希望說民航局也能夠跟我用一樣的心境看12年以後"},{"start":762.757,"end":776.711,"text":"我這12年來,我新的行業發展好但是我中間還是不斷的在成長我想這是最重要的,不能說不斷的,我們12年斷的就歪掉了所以這個部分我希望高雄機場戰戰兢兢"},{"start":779.363,"end":788.792,"text":"我們看杜叔在背杜推 要很小心 要戰戰兢兢但是我們最後要看到 我們有信心 把它做好這樣好不好好 謝謝委員 我們會認真來處理好 謝謝次長 謝謝局長"}]}},{"id":"158755","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158755","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb581a2391a15732bacf9b82b4e80112db252e7e046cfb2de4f706b889c0fce998ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"09:42:08 - 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謝謝主席 有請陳次長跟港務公司李董事長請陳次長還有李董事長委員好 次長在你們這份交通部的報告第7頁的時候有提到2025年到2026年高雄港會增加5座暗電設施那我想請問基隆港呢"},{"start":28.083,"end":51.972,"text":"有關岸電設施基隆港是不是有準備基隆港也會有一座基隆港也會有一座什麼時候會建好呢我們大概一百對一百一四年大概會陸續要興建五座那包含這裡頭包含了郵輪碼頭的兩座其中有一座就是在基隆港那另外在高雄港請繼續在報告的時候請跟我說明什麼時候這些岸電設施會做好"},{"start":52.472,"end":72.494,"text":"而且另外一方面我有聽到基隆港的高層有跟我講過說基隆港未來會成為LNG剛剛我們經濟部有講過液態天然氣來補充船舶的設施這句話是不是真的如果是真的本席可不可以認為這就是台灣港務公司側面認同事接在基隆的表態"},{"start":75.615,"end":77.756,"text":"LNG不管是LNG的這個液態天然氣的發電廠還是LNG的船舶補給中心是嗎"},{"start":87.406,"end":110.933,"text":"第一個跟委員報告就是我們從114到115年我們的建制就是暗電高壓暗電所以沒有電暗器這個事情目前暗電的第二個部分就是因為台電在做這一方面的話我們把我們相關的有些疑慮包括就是一些航安的問題比如說港口"},{"start":112.394,"end":139.456,"text":"港口方面航運的規定還有一些氣候變遷的可能要還有靜穩度這些我們要提出來他們一定要納入這個環評裡面市長跟董事長請注意說請注意有關未來有關基隆港尤其是市街方面的任何訊息上面的分享因為這個議題不但是現在是一個我們經濟上重要議題也是在政治上面大家非常關注的議題請這一點請市長跟董事長特別要注意"},{"start":139.716,"end":154.928,"text":"是是我們必要時候提供委員相關資訊那請問一下我在看這份報告這四份報告的時候裡面講了很多有關SAF也就是有關謝謝董事長有關SAF也是有關這個空這個航空用的這個"},{"start":156.009,"end":171.202,"text":"有永續燃料那有在第二頁經濟部的報告裡面跟第三頁第三頁這個國科會國家科學技術委員會裡面的報告都提到說要製造所謂的永續塘空替代燃料"},{"start":171.863,"end":197.425,"text":"那我想請問如何製造因為我目前我上次那個美國AIT農業協會來台灣開會那我有特地有聽他們整個報告他們的報告主要講說目前的這些所謂的這個航空替代永續燃料主要是透過這個食物也就是玉米跟小麥的殘渣物去做成的那我們台灣目前沒有這麼大量的食物這個食物殘渣去做供應的時候那請問我們是不是全部都要向美國購買"},{"start":201.098,"end":218.127,"text":"我想跟委員報告現在我們跟中油台塑這邊的接洽還有包含國際上大部分都是用廢食用油所以初步來講國內如果要自產的話也是會用廢食用油那至於剛剛委員所提到的那個也是一個生產的方式"},{"start":218.607,"end":235.263,"text":"不過他要通通通通要通過國際上IKL COSIA的認證好 謝謝因為在第三頁裡面已經有講到有兩道說有關這個你們已經開發出來相關的科技正在國科會在做相關研究那請問這個相關研究什麼時候可以operationalize也就是可以實質上執行化"},{"start":238.124,"end":253.399,"text":"這三頁第三頁你們自己寫的喔國客會的話麻煩是不是請國客會來做說明一下有關全流動連續式綠色製程跟轉化二氧化碳為永續航空燃料的創新混營早量產技術什麼時候可以實施開始使用"},{"start":258.707,"end":284.775,"text":"是 跟委員報告 國會相關的研究希望從基礎研究到應用的部分那我們希望在115年的時候能夠有一個示範的基地來落實這些技術的所以說我們要等到所謂的永續航空替代燃料真正能夠在台灣可以自給自足的時候請問什麼時候我們看到這個事情台灣製造的 自給自足的因為這是你們上面寫的東西"},{"start":286.327,"end":310.357,"text":"因為除了技術之外相關的法規跟產業界的鏈接這部分都很需要配到的應用所以現在經濟部他也在規劃一個整體性的這個方案所以希望能夠在115年能夠啟動這樣的一個基礎115年就是明年囉明年大概什麼時候第一季第二季第三季第四季現在這個正在規劃當中"},{"start":312.1,"end":332.956,"text":"我希望有個確切的時程要出來而且第二點來講的話這方面來講其實知識體大這不但要務實而且我希望能加速在考慮安全速度跟方便性的前提之下我希望這方面的所謂航空有序燃料的自給自足可以務實的去做推動"},{"start":334.599,"end":353.358,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下有關這個永續航空燃油我們大概分三個階段來實施那當然就是剛剛委員特別提到還要配合這個薩普燃油的國內的製廠所以原則上分三個階段第一個階段大概就是今年開始會有少量的一個試辦"},{"start":354.199,"end":373.309,"text":"那少量的試辦也是剛才委員特別提到我們也是用應該是台塑跟中油大概會用國內的這個廢食用油來製成經過剛才講COCIA的認證以後來提供國內少量的一個今年開始試辦然後到了2030年的時候我們希望能夠添加5%"},{"start":375.11,"end":399.285,"text":"但是到2013年要有這樣的就是剛才委員特別提到不管是國科會或經濟部相關的SUP的產能要能夠起來所以到時候我們會滾動的務實的來推動這樣的一個政策好我看這份報告裡面其實提了很多直接提到有關電動車目前電動車所謂的這個低碳運具的推動策略可能是目前我們國家現在走的方向"},{"start":399.945,"end":424.442,"text":"對於2025年能夠做到淨零排碳這件事情本席是表示贊成的畢竟來講這是全球的趨勢但是有另外一個方向我想請我們交通部好好考慮一下也就是所謂與其說一天到晚只是講低運碳具用電能倒不如說我們現在的運具上面其實到目前為止還是很多是用汽油而使用汽油如果我記得沒錯的話一部車從買到"},{"start":425.843,"end":453.621,"text":"車到最後面車子結束差不多16年到18年以我們2015年開始算起來的話可能要完全排除用汽油的交通運具可能到2070年因此在這個不改變既有車輛技術有效減少使用這個中汽車的這個談判量的話其實我本席在這邊會建議說是不是能夠考慮所謂的酒精混合汽油燃料也就是所謂的e-fuel的存在"},{"start":454.321,"end":483.485,"text":"因為這一點來講的話如果以美國為例我們台灣很多地方都是看歐美看世界的趨勢來去做我們國家政策的推動以美國為例他們環境部在2013年已經核准E15也就是所謂汽油中混合10%到15%的乙醇這是可以適用在所有2001年之後的輕型傳統燃料車輛而E10則是可以使用就是汽油中混合10%的乙醇"},{"start":484.225,"end":510.89,"text":"則可適用在2001年以前的乘用車機車等等現在美國的加油站提供的汽油幾乎都是所謂的衣食而歐盟的燃油品質指令於2011年起許可汽油內含10%的乙醇那2022年歐盟兩國的銷售汽油中也含差不多40%都是衣食而且有逐漸取代E5也就是汽油中混合5%乙醇的趨勢"},{"start":512.77,"end":537.144,"text":"英國現在從4年前9月1號2021年9月1號起已改用10%也就是E10作為標準的汽油來減少溫室氣排放但是台灣到目前只有提供E3加油也就是只有3%那請問部長是不是要參考OECD跟所有先進國家的做法將E3提高到E10讓更多加油站來加入計畫呢"},{"start":539.308,"end":565.906,"text":"報告一下 剛剛委員特別提到像現在加E3因為E3現行的使用是少量在使用那少量使用的時候因為也有這個應該是車主有相關的一個反應油品的相關的問題他有相關反應所以目前還是在這個少量在使用中但是這樣的一個趨勢如何讓現行的汽油車能夠在這個在這個2050年之前他還是對減碳有貢獻"},{"start":569.128,"end":584.508,"text":"一個導入這一部分我們跟就是我們跟經濟部正在討論中前幾天我先是去做完美國AIT的邀請我甚至去到那個桃園吧去成都他們YAMAHA做的E100"},{"start":585.569,"end":613.3,"text":"也就是100%放乙醇在裡面而如果使用1100燃料乙醇最多能減少71%的碳排量這個其實比電動車減碳的成果更為優秀那是不是可以認真考慮說我們既然全世界現在目前已經有成熟的科技如果我們還在故步自封不去往前推進的話其實我們要好好地去解決我們要好好地去達到2050淨零排碳的目標"},{"start":613.9,"end":631.572,"text":"是委員這個意見我們會跟經濟部共同來研究看如何來推這個這是整個也可以講說是整個行政院有在考慮的一個政策方向我一直認為說我們不能用過去的經驗來解決現在的問題你不能用製造問題的方法來解決問題"},{"start":632.392,"end":661.242,"text":"那未來如果說我們現在已經看到其他先進國家我們自詡是個先進民主國家我們自詡是個先進的科技國家那目前有這些科技的手而且是成熟而且已經有成功的先例的手那我們不去採用其實某個程度上我們是在故步自封所以我建請我們交通部認真考慮是不是針對這些案子能夠提出計畫跟具體時程讓淨零排碳這件事情不是只是口號而已是 我們會會同經濟部把這樣的一個案子給提出來好 謝謝 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請一下陳彥博次長請陳次長"},{"start":15.625,"end":39.718,"text":"市長我首先請教你 觀光也是你督導的一物之一嘛 對嗎是是是那我先請教你 我們現在春節的這個期間訂房率在12月26的時候啊2024年12月26 那各縣市回報是不到4成那我們來比較2019年的春節期間的"},{"start":40.658,"end":59.776,"text":"住房率最低的是4乘5那觀光旅館的住用率來講全國平均是到達63.74%那住用率最高的縣市台北市是71%高雄市也有66%那比較低的花蓮縣也有45%那2025年"},{"start":64.045,"end":85.15,"text":"其實我們來看在春節的訂房率平均現在大概是4成因為我們看到12月26的時候各縣市他們有這個回報給觀光署的時候是還不到4成那1月6號這是最新的回報的數據"},{"start":86.75,"end":99.532,"text":"地方政府回報給觀光署的訂房率略為有提升現在觀光旅館的訂房率全國平均是40.15%那訂房率最低的縣市"},{"start":100.885,"end":117.672,"text":"花蓮縣也提升到25%了那其實市長你要注意來看2023年的春節7天前的這個平均定房率是48%2024年的春節30天前平均定房率是40%"},{"start":119.053,"end":126.421,"text":"那15天前2024年的春節15天前的平均定房率是42%這是2024年的春節2023、2024的一個數據那2025他現在才只有4成而已市長你了解這個狀況你們有什麼對策嗎"},{"start":139.909,"end":162.824,"text":"我想跟委員做一個說明就是這個定房率當然會依照各個不同的縣市的不同那委員剛才也特別提到現在是整體的定房率就是下降你認為因素是什麼我覺得整體的大概今年的這個假期如果是假期大概是九天前前後後的話大概有高達十幾天"},{"start":163.644,"end":192.569,"text":"所以呢多數很多的國人我們昨天開相關的這個輸運的一個計畫可以發現很多的國人是選擇出國所以出國也會有相當的影響這是一個但是呢因為這是今年的年假很長它的平均住房率是整個九天或幾天所以它會有一個平均的一個情形但是你如果看它這個核心的這個好 天數當然是因素之一譬如說"},{"start":193.309,"end":209.496,"text":"初二到初四之間大年夜到初幾當然放假的天數會影響相關的住宿率這也是因素之一另外相關住宿的費用過於高昂"},{"start":210.58,"end":239.522,"text":"也是不可否認的因素之一嘛對不對來說明一下有關這個房價的問題一直是長期以來國人的對於在國內旅遊的認為是說無法選擇在國內旅遊一個很重要的因素但是房價又會跟他所提供的這個旅館的這個服務品質也會有關係啦市長你當然也提到天數是一個問題然後費用是一個問題那交通部有什麼對應的策略嗎"},{"start":243.211,"end":270.025,"text":"因為春節的時候其實在各縣市尤其是春節的時候完了以後會有燈會所以其實各個縣市其實在春節期間它也都會有相關的一個活動然後時間又那麼長所以很多的民眾也會選擇在這個春節期間譬如說現在住宿率低就是一個不爭的事實嘛當然我們提到相關的因素那我們有什麼相關對應的策略嗎"},{"start":270.945,"end":288.33,"text":"當然有人會提到是否要國旅的補助當然國旅補助是有它一定的這個規範不管是天災或者是疫情或者是整體淡季的時候的一種非常態性的這樣的一個補助但是春節它就比較不屬於這個範圍啊"},{"start":290.626,"end":300.811,"text":"而且這不是住宿率的問題 這是整體觀光產業會受到衝擊的一個問題啊交通部沒有拿出任何對應的辦法 這個讓我非常失望"},{"start":304.391,"end":321.665,"text":"經常用補助不是一個好方法但是今年整年來講我們對於這個整個不管是國際觀光客來台或整體的這國內的有關旅遊如何復甦我想我們觀光署大概會有一系列的一個規劃"},{"start":323.086,"end":351.278,"text":"你看你都講得吞吞吐吐我就認為你們交通部還拿不出對於提升國內旅遊以及吸引國外旅客到臺灣旅遊啊還沒有提出具體的政策你們必須要盡快的拿出相關對應的策略我想我會責請觀光署盡速把這個計畫這個旅遊業者大家都在期待交通部要有更進一步具體的作為能夠提升相關的觀光旅遊產業的發展"},{"start":352.711,"end":368.256,"text":"那整個觀光產業的一個發展其實行政院最近也會召開相關的諮詢委員會那裡頭我們會在裡頭跟徵詢相關的業界的意見看如何來推動國內的觀光那你們認為你們交通部什麼時候會提出具體的做法"},{"start":370.206,"end":384.799,"text":"因為相關的會議大概在一月的下旬所以我想我們近期應該會提出相關的一個方案這個民眾已經不太能接受現在目前觀光旅遊的這種狀況必須要提出具體的作為"},{"start":385.7,"end":403.585,"text":"好 那我現在來請教你 我們今天的議題就是國際海事組織IMO在近兩年的NEPC的會議的結果它會要求國際航線以及航商要有具體的目標就是2030年以前"},{"start":404.645,"end":429.41,"text":"碳強度要降低40%2040年預計要減少70%至80%並且要在2050年達到溫室氣體淨零排放的這樣一個標準當然它有一些具體的措施就是2030年這個船舶所使用的能源占比至少要有5%是來自於淨零的這個"},{"start":431.59,"end":456.947,"text":"燃料而且要使用碳捕捉的系統捕捉傳播排放尾氣產生的二氧化碳而且並且要儲存新建或者是在建造中的船隻要嚴格的審查它傳播的能源效率設計的指數提高審查的標準等等那而且要航行中要使用相關的這種節能的技術"},{"start":457.788,"end":486.454,"text":"那歐盟對於淨營的措施要求是更加的嚴格那其實我要請教的是市長我們對於台灣的各大港口對於相關這種國際的趨勢跟標準我們準備好了沒有我們有足夠的岸電設施嗎或者是我們未來要如何進行淨營燃料的添加是否有進行規劃來港澳公司要說明還是港港局"},{"start":487.588,"end":501.687,"text":"好 那個目前我們也配合國際MO組織那目前我們所有的港口當中有已經建置了219座的低壓的岸墊"},{"start":502.808,"end":515.356,"text":"那另外11座的高壓岸墊那在今年跟明年的話我們另外還要做建置5座尤其是基隆的那個郵輪一座那高雄一個郵輪三個貨櫃場"},{"start":518.058,"end":543.03,"text":"那另外的話我們配合整個那個淨零碳排的話我們在高雄的話我們目前在在評估規劃LNG跟相關的劣甲醇一些燃料能夠降低那另外我們自己我們所有的港口就是我們也做一個配合那個智慧港灣所以我們那個自動門哨的話盡量能夠"},{"start":545.851,"end":563.106,"text":"因為時間的關係我最後再請教一個小問題也是大議題那主流的四種淨零的燃料台灣的安全規格像LNG它的液化溫度要低於零下163度需要有低溫的這種防護態的儲存"},{"start":566.427,"end":590.799,"text":"空間的需求是1.6倍那家村也是要常溫的長壓的液態儲存它空間需求是2.3然後安氣是要液化的溫度是要零下34度那它是有毒而且對人體的安全風險度最高它空間儲存也要2.9倍那氫氣也是要零下253度而且"},{"start":593.908,"end":606.243,"text":"有容易爆炸或燃燒的這種危險它的空間需求最大要4.3倍那我們針對這種未來主流的這種淨零燃料的物理特性我們有足夠的安全規範嗎那個葉局長"},{"start":609.124,"end":624.971,"text":"跟委員報告分兩個部分跟委員報告第一個是針對LNG跟甲醇這種氣體或是低散點的燃料的安全的部分我們在去年的1月已經依照存保法101條採納EMO所發布的IGF Code"},{"start":630.333,"end":644.264,"text":"他是針對這樣的一個綠色能源的一般性的通用的規範所以這個部分我們已經跟國際接軌那第二個部分是針對特殊的淨零的燃料比如說氨氣"},{"start":646.425,"end":671.925,"text":"這樣的一個特殊染料那EMO呢他也另外發布了臨時性的使用安全準則這個部分我們也喊請我們的航商來參考那氫氣的部分EMO目前還沒有發布是預計在2026年就明年會來發布那剛跟委員報告的氨氣跟氫氣這個部分他們都是所謂的臨時性的使用安全準則還不是這個強制性的規範"},{"start":673.886,"end":685.914,"text":"當它轉換成強制性的規範我們一定會依照傳播法來做一個內國法化的動作跟國際來做接軌來確保傳播操作的安全"},{"start":686.67,"end":714.317,"text":"好那以上不過次長我還是要提醒你我們的吸引國外的旅客是預證法律當然我們國旅在今年在2024年當然有逐漸恢復到疫情之前的水準但是春節這個住宿率真的是讓大家失望必須嚴加的督促必須做整體的一個重新的檢討跟規劃是我們會朝這個方向來努力謝謝李崑澤"}]}},{"id":"158750","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158750","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb5888956afbb55d419da56fd3a12bc29fbb2e7e046cfb2de4f734c2034a5d6bfafb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:53:38 - 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那竟然有根據啊他說根據道路交通標誌標線號誌設置規制還有公路路線設計規範沒人知道有這個東西啦他說那是一個漸變型慢慢變化 延伸發明出來我不知道是不是這樣來的啦"},{"start":203.306,"end":230.776,"text":"這個一定要改啦 局長是 你不改 你看到馬上 他們就把它磨除掉了因為它確實 我知道 是我們就辦一個會 看話你們畫這種線 你們怎樣就把它畫掉啦但是你畫掉以後 你就磨損到路面嘛不然你的路 大家做得比較漂亮你現在就要把它刷 用起來你就破壞到路面那為什麼會設計出這樣的標圈 這才是個問題啦"},{"start":233.018,"end":259.962,"text":"你是怎麼通過你們內部內部是怎麼怎麼討論怎麼去畫圍住這個所來其實啊交通部有通過一個非常重要的規則啦那是運營所 運營所在嗎運營所在今年一月啊推出道路交通標誌標線號誌設置參考參考指引我想說這個指引很重要啦因為這個指引裡面喔它 它把各種標線怎麼畫"},{"start":262.246,"end":285.787,"text":"統一了中央跟地方啦過去他們中央跟地方都有落差啦 地方都沒有違約 中央有違約所以我們現在運營所今年運過 通過這個參考指引喔他就是要解決啦 中央地方 省車 鄉鎮 公售那個道路的品質 現在連品質都要求要一致化然後呢 交通標誌 標線 號誌 都要單一的實施"},{"start":290.642,"end":313.357,"text":"很多縣市會產生奇奇怪怪的標線啊既然你有訂做這個版本 那我也請交通部要趕快讓各縣市的交通局 地方的單位 宅仔一定要來參考這樣的一個指標來解決過去中央跟地方各自都有一些奇奇怪怪的東西啦 都標像號誌嘛"},{"start":316.221,"end":340.682,"text":"來 像剛剛那個地方 你要怎麼解決其實你應該 偏心左腦應該在這個地方對不對 你在執行嘛執行車不能改變啦 執行車要直直開啦然後你要左轉的車 這裡有空間讓他左轉嘛不像你剛才回那個 那個怪傻嘛那對面來車也一樣 只是對面可能會少一個經辦車道那你們要去把它劃出來嘛"},{"start":341.964,"end":362.007,"text":"我跟委員說明一下有關這個預言所的這樣一個參考指引部長也非常重視因為也涵班了所以要求部裡頭要對各縣市要做一些說明或考核然後去看他們是不是有確實按照這個指引來做一些相關改善"},{"start":362.788,"end":372.254,"text":"那我下禮拜我會再去現場啦我會再請工種派人來齁應該把那個標線給解決好那個路段對當地對台南合格的那個地方齁那是速度會有一條路啦好 再來"},{"start":378.895,"end":405.865,"text":"我要討論一個就是身障朋友如果要考駕照這是我接觸到的一條申請案有一位身障朋友他在台南市要參加汽車考照但台南市沒有任何一個駕訓班有那個殘障特製的那種身障車讓他去考照所以這位朋友這位市民他就去問台南監理站台南監理站怎麼回答說叫他去駕駛叫他去過永克"},{"start":407.927,"end":416.829,"text":"那你對於深藏朋友是不是很不方便後來喔 他說自己騎的駕訓班有一台深藏的駕訓車 兩號這個人說 不然你跟我們叫我們台南監理站幫他把那台車借來嘛借來給我扣嘛 他就不用找我扛嘛我們就跟你說不可以 我們不想借來後來他來找我申請 我請我們監理站去幫忙有借回來啦"},{"start":436.852,"end":463.049,"text":"但我意思就是說像這種事情其實不需要說讓民眾要去找民代啦找立委來幫忙這是一個服務嘛啊 等我來了解一下我才發現喔原來啊 深藏朋友考駕照很不方便啦你剛才啊 台中以南咱全國 台中 伊朗所有的管區 監理站都沒有深藏的駕訓車啦你要知道喔"},{"start":466.775,"end":493.675,"text":"嘉義 堅尼 等於嘉義雲林嘉義台南一直到嘉義市台南的各地的堅尼站沒有任何一台有身障朋友可以考駕照的駕訓車這個是很嚴重的問題那台南市更慘台南市是連駕訓班民間的駕訓班都連一台都沒有那周邊 周邊的"},{"start":496.637,"end":513.626,"text":"駕訓班喔 咖哩有啦 歌詠有啦但是像高雄 它是民間駕訓班有伸張車但監理站也沒有這個是不是應該我們監理站啦 應該要有這樣的一台駕訓車吧來 沈議長"},{"start":516.818,"end":531.588,"text":"跟我們報告沒有的部分我們已經要求就像這個台南跟嘉義地區的這個目前就是說在改裝這個我們的考驗車的部分今年會來執行那像台南的有一些駕訓班的這個考驗車還有訓練車"},{"start":533.889,"end":554.268,"text":"的一個改裝我們也會來這個輔導這個台南地區的只是跟委員報告就是說比較少原因是因為伸張的人士因為他的條件不太一樣他比如說上肢下肢左右邊所以他改裝的幅度也不是很一樣所以大部分來考試的其實他們都有自備車輛有的他是不一定能夠考像這個不然你就要付錢可以調嗎"},{"start":560.333,"end":587.87,"text":"我們盡量來看能不能你不能在台中 伊朗 高雄坡所有的感染者都沒有報台你要幹什麼 對不對你也不對 你說有些會有特殊狀況但你至少公家要有提供嘛那民眾說他要靠你 你就說沒有啦 台南沒有啦你自己去教他一個人靠你看 你要不要拿酒來後來我們有做這樣的一個服務啦但是喔"},{"start":589.022,"end":611.153,"text":"我也請我們相關單位就身障朋友的考照需求我們一般是身障大概有領有身障大概有五萬人五六萬人那他們裡面如果有考駕照需求的話我希望是不是可以提供一定的方便性會 一定來協助好 我們謝謝兩位 謝謝次長 謝謝局長"}]}},{"id":"158754","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158754","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb588c2d15e41664c816a56fd3a12bc29fbb2e7e046cfb2de4f78c182ccf94525d475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:30:48 - 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那個剛剛台堂的董事長是新任中油董事長雖然也是新任但是我知道您是老中油人您跟張總都是老中油人董事長跟總經理你們剛剛講到了這個再生能源的應用的部分其實有很多題我們過去都一直問過但是我其實想要更清楚知道是進度比如說可疑似的嘉青站"},{"start":313.331,"end":339.933,"text":"每一次你們的業務報告都會講到這個都會講中油積極在推動可疑式的加輕站從之前你們那個李董事長的時代我也問過他兩次一直到現在到底可疑式加輕站什麼時候可以做好可以做好幾座那個推動的進度是什麼到目前為止我沒有看到那這個部分我是不是也能夠請中油也給我一個詳細的書面說明好不好"},{"start":340.493,"end":361.843,"text":"另外我有一題我想這個可能還是要請中友去研究我還有一分鐘這個我們其實從劉仕芳委員到現在我們已經協商過非常多次了在中友的後進宿舍後進宿舍區居民的用電的計價方式是用工業用電董事長您知道這件事嗎"},{"start":362.583,"end":387.434,"text":"我知道你知道這件事好那這件事情要怎麼處理我們協商了這麼多次中油總是講說這個改電表啦改這些設備的費用啦包括台電估價的整個建制費用啦要花三億所以中油就反正就這樣子大家一天拖過一天也不易去解決可是現在的工業電價一直不斷的在漲價這幾年工業電價已經漲了五六次"},{"start":391.115,"end":407.707,"text":"你讓宿舍區的民宅使用工業用電對居民來說情何以堪他再怎麼樣的節電其實他也追不上這個電價漲價的方式我請教一下董事長有沒有什麼更好的處理方式跟委員報告"},{"start":411.533,"end":427.61,"text":"如果說把工業用電改成一般住宅用或用電那麼這中電差額大概差800萬對中原公司來講我們要支付這個800萬就變成要有一些依據"},{"start":429.022,"end":450.059,"text":"同時對於用戶來講他支付電價其實也是使用者付費不過我們也了解這個歷史的過程發展的情況是怎麼樣的所以目前是在跟住戶你為什麼要去支付800萬他用電用多少電你們就付多少電就是說改用民生用電來就跟他收取的話那綜合公司相對要多支付800餘萬"},{"start":452.025,"end":472.159,"text":"那目前就是住戶還有我們公司以及台電還有市政府還有地方的民意代表目前在協商目前就大概三個問題一個就是屋內的設施以及屋外的線路的架設還有公用電費的部分這三個區塊如何做一個協調那後續會進行這方面的一個協調"},{"start":474.38,"end":480.869,"text":"董事長這個 當然您講我們其實在地的委員們大家都已經協調過非常多次那每一次協調完"},{"start":484.059,"end":508.599,"text":"隔不了多久工業電價又漲價了所以對於居民來講協調完之後那個工業電價一直在漲價所以您剛剛講的那個800多萬的差額啊你現在如果不趕快去處理的話未來你的那個差額會越來越大因為你是用工業電價去計算你不是用民生電價去計算你用工業電價去計算的話你的差額會越來越大你中油現在不趕快處理的話"},{"start":509.94,"end":530.2,"text":"將來你要負擔的差額越多然後你就告訴Jimmy說那這800多萬的差額我中油沒辦法負擔我覺得這個不是不是理由啦要怎麼樣去解決宿舍區的用電電費計算的問題我期待或者是我要求中油是不是能夠更積極主動一點好不好跟那個上次我們國營會"},{"start":532.001,"end":551.696,"text":"國營會也一起下去談嘛 跟高雄市政府還有台電到底這個建置費用包括電感要不要下地整個那個太陽能儲能設備的設置等等再生能源的設置等等我覺得這個都一併要去談我希望可以在短期之內把本席跟這個李博弈委員大家一起來共同研商這個問題好嗎好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158785","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158785","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb58666c1bfbcf9d696f9b82b4e80112db2549197707589a2149aa242417b77be3175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"13:13:34 - 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因為那天身體不是很好那身體健康啊 那保養身體那再來就是說 你跨年看電視跨年還是用國道監視器跨年"},{"start":55.52,"end":66.907,"text":"那直接提一下就是說高空局那不苛責啦因為那個時間點是生死一瞬間驚天動地60秒那本席也知道"},{"start":68.248,"end":93.095,"text":"這個部分是長官指示還是現場的同仁那直接把監視器的畫面轉到這個就是跨年的這個現場上但是還是在這裡因為還好那天都一切交通平安那所以說那就是局長簡單回應一下就好了是來跟委員報告那我們帶路有兩側的外面的部分通常也會做一些監看那往年的話"},{"start":94.355,"end":113.951,"text":"那個101的煙火花大概都會一到兩支的監視器轉過去那這次是轉的太多這是不對的所以以前都會轉嗎都會轉我們在包括台中或雲林因為我們要看外面的一個狀況還有他的路未來他結束了疏散的一些道路車輛過了車流的狀況就是路外的狀況也會去看"},{"start":114.591,"end":131.609,"text":"那沒關係就是本席還是要在這裡提出建議啦就是這個就因為有口頭告誡了啦但是還好是平安那希望以後的話還是要讓用路人他們隨時在軌道鑽石系統上面都能夠掌握海陸礦的情況好不好是好"},{"start":132.15,"end":157.84,"text":"好那接下來的話我現在是要針對今天的淨零排汗的部分那還是要持續的來做提出那在這裡的話當然準備的資料上面有提到這個煙火秀以及包括這無人機的部分是不是能夠未來來做取代或是能夠來減低這個煙火的這種施放那這樣子也是節能減碳的一個考量"},{"start":158.28,"end":170.796,"text":"那目前來講就直接簡單一下就教市長那在無人機的使用以及包括在煙火的釋放那這個部分在淨零排碳的部分有沒有什麼措施在未來"},{"start":172.972,"end":195.25,"text":"無人機的使用這個我們應該是沒有排斥原則上是各個活動的主辦機關但是原則上無人機的使用還有他一定申請的一個程序他要符合相關的一個程序才可以辦好 那本席直接這邊也建議就是說如果說要達到未來的一個目標的話那其實在這無人機的這種表演"},{"start":196.371,"end":216.899,"text":"部分來取代或是未來來取代這個煙火表演的話這個是需要有規劃的那不然的話其實排蛋的目標其實對於這方面來講是確實沒辦法達成那因為今天時間有限那再來賴清德總統於10月20號主持7月變遷對社會議的時候那他提到了"},{"start":217.919,"end":235.05,"text":"國內必須團結力量打造一制度因應挑戰與國際接軌者搶奪台灣同時還也願意跟中國在內的世界各國持續加強合作共同面對氣候變遷的挑戰姑且不用他這一句話來講就是在兩國論他有可能兩岸人權關係條例他其實根本就沒有讀但是無所謂"},{"start":235.911,"end":249.196,"text":"那在他喊話他希望來做兩岸之間的減碳合作那交通部隊氣候變遷有沒有提過任何的配套措施或是參加過任何兩岸減碳的一個會議兩岸之間國際會議不算國際我們的那個雖然賴總統他提出他希望兩岸協力協作啊那這個部分來講總不是空口白話"},{"start":268.536,"end":279.384,"text":"氣象署今天有來嗎看起來今天的話氣候變遷署啊主席實驗暫停一下好不好你知道嗎這是環境部環境部是是好 謝謝"},{"start":290.083,"end":305.456,"text":"主席 委員好所以有關過去兩岸的合作在環境部的部分造期是比較著重在空氣品質的關係我就問今年 去年去年是在氣候署的部分是沒有沒有嘛所以說賴總統他講的話不能空口白話"},{"start":306.377,"end":322.327,"text":"所以說在兩岸方面的這種碳排的部分那是不是能夠協力合作那本期還是希望在今天的會議中給大家一個報告包括過去的還有包括未來的那是在指兩岸方面不是只在參加國際會議好不好一個書面報告"},{"start":323.368,"end":344.396,"text":"OK那謝謝那我本學校針對目前的話我們電動車在全國的這個數據尤其在特斯拉我們是算是全國第五貴那最主要是因為在台灣目前所在推動的這種設施來講以及包括環境來講確實需要在政府要再加把勁"},{"start":345.296,"end":363.961,"text":"那以及說在立法院預算中心報告國際上電動車與充電樁的比例為2比1但是國內的部分那它其實目前以2021年底來講是只有3652支但是在其他的數據那目前來講全台近9萬台的這種電動車"},{"start":365.481,"end":377.417,"text":"那目前CRIF它的數據統計那幾乎是40台的電動車在搶還有一個電動樁那電動樁不足的問題延續剛才廖先生的委員那要如何改善"},{"start":379.524,"end":390.831,"text":"我想委員這個數據或許我們可以另外來提供因為我們現在所掌握到的我們國內的電動裝大概有1048裝那相較於電動車的這種車重比的大概是9.1比1我剛才提到的這個"},{"start":400.257,"end":414.905,"text":"這個預算中心的部分是2021但是問題是CRF的是去年度的到年底統計的那40搶1跟歐盟他是10比1目標10比1我們目前是9.1比1所以我們9.1比1是目標"},{"start":416.926,"end":426.431,"text":"沒有沒有 現況現況來講的統計上因為像南投縣的話它只有96座當然充電槍也只有245支那所以說目前來講的這個充電狀的比例嚴重不足"},{"start":431.889,"end":459.192,"text":"那沒關係那這樣子我直接來請教一下就是因為這個問題我相信充電窗不斷的要去做一個提升要去設置這個是大家共同目標啦那在這個中央部會的話今天是交通部嘛社長在這裡那我剛才也想問一下那在交通部底下的各個單位啊在機關的辦公場域啊那是不是都有設置這個充電樁還我想問一下那"},{"start":460.713,"end":467.259,"text":"這個民航局民航局今天局長有來那局長沒關係你原地回答就可以了那這個有沒有設置集資"},{"start":473.755,"end":493.293,"text":"在公我們辦公場所或者是機場的公用停車場的部分有設快充跟慢充那那個辦公機關的部分因為像我們局旁邊就是停車場那個部分就會有好那沒關係那因為大家不用出來那行港局局長直接回答不用特別出來直接講就好了幾隻"},{"start":502.943,"end":506.165,"text":"好,沒關係,這個我不追,那這個運輸研究所耶剛才聽到一個電動樁好,那再來這個高工局"},{"start":524.96,"end":542.406,"text":"好OK沒關係那大致上簡單的測試一下嘛那還是那是局長您請回那本期還是希望在中央的部分啊那如果說要達到淨零排碳2030年到三成35年到六成40年到百分之百的話"},{"start":543.166,"end":561.792,"text":"那剛才就提到這個電動裝不足的問題啊嚴重失衡那以及說在中央部會那應該是要讓各機關啊那像是觀光署他的各景點都能夠來設置這個充電裝那我覺得說不僅交通部"},{"start":562.412,"end":583.011,"text":"那其實今天相關單位也在嘛經濟部也在環境部也在嘛那其實應該要所有的中央機關都要做那再來也要跟縣市政府配合那這樣子基本上來去提升一個數量那主席時間到嘛OK好那下次我再持續針對社區活動中心還有跟地方政府的配合再持續討論謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb583aa1a026d048647c9b82b4e80112db2549197707589a2149686bf1ce6383841d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"13:05:32 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我想要請我們陳次長好 請陳次長陳次長你要好好表現喔 主席 趙偉對那個陳世凱比較好 我給他請假你要在這裡好好表現一下是 我願好那個 我願可以大力的質詢沒關係好好好 再找那個公路總局的我們局長來請陳局長"},{"start":31.957,"end":53.824,"text":"我們知道現在台灣面臨到就是我們的標線不明或者是我們的號誌管理不當導致現在行車的時候非常多的駕駛人不知道如何開車因為行人跟交通的就是車輛的那個行駛路線都會交織"},{"start":54.824,"end":77.996,"text":"那我們希望能夠讓行人行得安全但是這樣子的號誌規定是不是沒有辦法達到我們需要行人安全這樣子的目標對於比較就是交通湧色的路口那我們是不是應該要落實就是讓行人有一個單一的實相"},{"start":79.417,"end":101.513,"text":"那讓所有的車輛在行駛的時候不會產生這樣子交織的現象那在交織的現象就是如果行人在行走的時候車輛沒有辦法右轉或左轉也有可能導致了交通擁擠的現象行車不效率的現象那這個部分我想請問次長你們要怎麼解決"},{"start":103.257,"end":126.096,"text":"委員剛才特別提到的有關行人在入口的時候這個在過去以往交通部就一直也有相關的指引來希望各縣市政府能夠如何在什麼情況下去設置專用的號誌或者是行人的早開讓行人可以先行等等的這些都有相關的一個應該是說參考指引供地方政府來使用"},{"start":126.556,"end":145.445,"text":"那委員特別提到了如果有些單一的路口確實沒有這樣的一個設置而造成行人在穿越馬路上的一個危害我想我們會請公路總局或者是相關單位你們是不是已經有在示範了你們是不是有在示範看到有一些 有有有是不是"},{"start":145.785,"end":161.247,"text":"是我想有必要的話我們也可以提供相關的示範的地方啦或者是相關的這個影片啦讓委員了解一下那根據你們示範的效果你們有發現說這樣子比較不會造成行人與車流的交織嗎"},{"start":162.348,"end":176.233,"text":"當然當然 是不是因為是這種情形所以我們才會發布相關的指引希望各縣市政府在特殊域剛才講的在行人很多穿越的時候能夠採用專用的號誌好 那請那個局長說"},{"start":178.401,"end":201.93,"text":"因為行人專用保護實相它其實還是有設置的條件就是譬如說入口的行人量比較多所以有時候有些行人專用保護實相它有可能是在這個入口譬如說這個尖峰時間上下班或者是那個有學校所以這個上學下學的時候那個放學的時候它會有這個專用保護實相就像委員說的專用保護實相因為射進去以後四邊的車輛要停"},{"start":204.051,"end":220.697,"text":"所以如果說你行人量不大的時候你做這樣子的時候他其實變成說交通就比較擁擠所以他有他考慮的路口條件行人量還有交通量那原則上其實現在各縣市政府跟我們公路局的一些省道路口都有在做而且我們現在有統計"},{"start":221.517,"end":233.565,"text":"每大概都有就是說比如說這個各縣市政府行人專用保護石像定期增加的數量這個在每個對在全全國的道安的那個網站都有現在已經全國有5778處入口有設行人專用保護石像了"},{"start":237.776,"end":256.001,"text":"好如果行人專用保護石像能夠加速就是因為現在就是行車跟行人不要交織嘛是不是那怎麼樣子增加我們行人的安全以及讓車流都可以不要湧射"},{"start":257.321,"end":282.234,"text":"我覺得你們一定要回去檢討那是不是應該在就是中央跟地方跨部會的中央道路交通安全會議裡面你們也應該廣為讓地方政府瞭解可不可以沒有問題我們在相關的這個匯報裡頭大概地方政府也都有參與我想我們可以在近期再一次的來重申地方政府朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":282.677,"end":311.917,"text":"好 那我們那個交通局長那個公路總局的局長不要公路局啊 公路總局就是嫌我太老還有我們請那個公共運輸及監理師的師長那我想要請問的就是我們現在在講減碳嘛就是要增加大眾運輸系統可是在非六都以外的這個縣市我們知道你大眾運輸系統的推廣"},{"start":313.097,"end":338.581,"text":"跟目前我們民眾比較仰賴的就是交通運輸工具那這個東西是不是沒有辦法並行呢因為我看到的非六都以外的這樣子的大眾運輸的系統規劃目前的確不辨明那在這種不辨明的情況下我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":343.144,"end":368.319,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下有關公共運輸的一個方便性或者是向路線的一個調整這個在地方的交通主管機關或者是公務局大概都會去協助那如果說他是無法開定班定線的委員應該也有聽說過他會有幸福小房或幸福巴士的一個來提供所以我想這個問題大概可以朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":369.98,"end":394.169,"text":"大洲運輸區 林市長這邊大概做一點補充說明啦確實就是說在1.6度16個縣市的部分自己本身的市區客運的路線跟系統的規模沒有那麼大那從去年底那部裡面也邀集這幾個縣市希望就是說來這個協助地方政府這個慢慢擴充他們的市區客運的路線跟路網然後建立這種幹支道路這個路網的"},{"start":395.75,"end":401.968,"text":"這個系統然後進一步來這個就是說提升這個相關肺六度的一個市區客運的一個服務系統"},{"start":402.421,"end":427.938,"text":"趙薇不好意思我再一下子就是還有另外一點你除了要發展就是非六度以外的大眾運輸系統以外你還有一個重點就是那你不能因業廢食啊你不能因為減碳導致現在在擁擠區 精華區所需要的這個停車設施沒有辦法建立你們會不會編列 陳次長"},{"start":431.949,"end":454.243,"text":"是停車場嗎 停車場的補助我們大概有前瞻的預算在今年結束那今年結束後續呢我們有抱怨也會有相關的預算我認為你不能夠因業廢食我們要發展大眾運輸的系統但是在非六都以外"},{"start":455.143,"end":470.591,"text":"目前大眾運輸系統沒有辦法非常普及的情況下你必須要在京華區能夠設立相關的停車場的設施好不好所以你們這個預算也不能少是 我們會朝這個方向來努力好 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麻煩請陳次長好 請陳次長"},{"start":10.154,"end":38.022,"text":"市長好市長今天討論我們淨民碳排轉型改善措施其實最重要的就是希望鼓勵大家多用大眾運輸工具減少碳排對不對本席三個月前就在這邊有跟部長這邊來要求就是說考慮是不是能夠有通勤的時間國道客運事辦雙程巴士的通行那不知道現在進度如何"},{"start":40.287,"end":58.534,"text":"因為國道客運上面用雙層巴士三個部分第一解決現在缺工的問題嘛一輛巴士可以多載一些旅客嘛第二能夠讓更多的人使用同一班的一個大眾運輸工具以及第三減少國道上面的一個車輛的一個數量來"},{"start":60.595,"end":67.598,"text":"現在全世界各國以前你們一直主旨是說世界各國沒有多少國家是有國道客運雙層巴士可以上國道但事實是如此嗎"},{"start":88.766,"end":113.352,"text":"我們收集完之後才發覺說很多國家其實都有開放國道是可以用長程巴士對不對原則上大概就是主要使用還是在這個就是說市區遊覽的部分但是剛剛委員所提到確實在英國或等等的部分有這個長途國道客運的部分那我們也特別去了解它的車型車高這些相關還包括這個走路人數的部分"},{"start":113.652,"end":123.362,"text":"那大概目前這個收集回來之後那目前市裡面在凝聚這些相關東西原則上我們內部會簽一個處理的方向後面會找這個處理廠還有客人業者大家來共同做一個還要多久時間"},{"start":132.851,"end":158.199,"text":"這部分的話 我講三個月前跟我信誓旦旦講說這是一個很好的方向只要安全無虞的情況下可以辦理我們就優先來試辦那結果現在三個月過去了怎麼還是停留在這個討論階段我跟委員報告一下就是說前面這些相關的東西因為裡面就是我剛剛跟委員報告的一個部分裡面有車輛規格這些相關的部分那個是比較這個具體這個細部的部分啦"},{"start":158.519,"end":184.995,"text":"那我這邊大概跟委員報告一下還要多久時間是不是我這個應該這個過完年之後我就立刻召開第一次會議還要等過年啊是要等發紅包是不是因為有些程序處理完之後大概剛好碰到這一個就是月底過年的一個這個期間那我想說過完年之後那我們這個相關推就是說這些細部這個規格處理的部分我們就來開會做討論"},{"start":186.857,"end":190.015,"text":"過完年之後會開第一次會議是是是好來市長"},{"start":191.124,"end":218.103,"text":"市長本席為了今天的一個質詢我再收集了很多資料我給您看一下我也希望不要被下面的人蒙蔽因為以前的人大家都講是說世界各國很少開放國道有雙層巴士的行駛結果其實不是第一英國英國雙層巴士它就有在國道上面還有跨國的路線上面行駛第二"},{"start":219.099,"end":243.901,"text":"香港它的快速公路跟道路它其實也就有雙程巴士以70到80公里的時速在做行駛雖然說快速公路跟道路不一定他們的名稱是國道但實際上他們的性質就是高速公路第三 新加坡新加坡也有雙程巴士行駛在主要的幹道跟快速道路上面"},{"start":244.842,"end":254.251,"text":"當然新加坡的道路設計規劃的時候可能當初就已經考慮到說雙層巴士的需求所以對於限高等等就已經有考量進去來"},{"start":258.062,"end":275.383,"text":"以及美國美國這樣子的Megabus是美國加拿大都有雙程巴士的一個行駛都有行經他們主要的這個城市我更上網看一下這個Megabus的一個官方網站他們的那個巴士長什麼樣子"},{"start":277.322,"end":295.631,"text":"歐洲它就長這個樣子它其實跟一般使用的市區的觀光巴士那種雙層第二層是露天的是不一樣的它其實是一個包覆性的兩層的巴士而且因為Megabus他們做起來之後它就可以讓"},{"start":296.591,"end":321.541,"text":"國道客運讓這些客運業者有更多的優惠跟競爭力因為他只要一個駕駛就可以有多載一程的旅客嘛所以你看他上面寫什麼一塊錢啊Megabus的那官方網站上面你看很多的留學生喔他們去美國的話都會去搶那個票就是他們每一台Megabus裡面雙程巴士他都會有提供一張票"},{"start":322.472,"end":350.405,"text":"一塊美金就好剩下幾張票五塊美金再其他的票才是原本的價錢那如果說國外不管美國不管歐洲不管英國不管香港不管新加坡都有類似的一個推動的話那台灣第一地狹人稠第二我們的通勤其實是有需要的第三現在國道客運上面其實大家也覺得很辛苦啊"},{"start":351.957,"end":379.366,"text":"大家也覺得很辛苦啊不是嗎缺工的問題駕駛找不到但是找到了結果我們這個競爭力大家也覺得是說跟這個高鐵跟台鐵很難比較那如果說我們能夠有比較多一點思考去開放讓這些業者他們能夠做第一對於我們的這個乘客來講的話他就不會在上下班通勤時間看到等了很久就一台車來發覺上面已經滿了我只能再等下一班"},{"start":380.663,"end":397.996,"text":"有沒有多少市長你應該你這公路體系出色的你應該很能理解啊有多少人那種通勤族這種寒風天站了二三十分鐘一台車來結果看到原來那台車滿了他就要看著被迫走那我另外要再等下一台"},{"start":399.181,"end":414.984,"text":"所以我今天列出那麼多相關是世界各國確實有這樣子的一個做法也都可行也都安全那我們現在台灣在討論所謂的淨零碳排跟討論所謂的這些能夠擴大交通運量"},{"start":415.825,"end":444.503,"text":"等相關部分能不能有更積極的思維來市長簡單回應一下我想我跟委員做說明部長已經有提到說朝這個方向來演繹所以原則上呢我想剛才市長也說明了我們會朝這個方向來演繹那最主要考量還是安全那以往來講的話那個其實我們在早幾年我們的國道還是有出現那個雙層的下面坐人的所以"},{"start":445.103,"end":462.763,"text":"當時大家的印象就是那種車子真的是很不安全那剛才委員秀出來Megabus的那個如果說我們國內而且隨著這個我們刑事認證的推展其實車子的打造的技術也提升了所以如果國內有這樣的打造的技術的能力真的把這樣的打造出來車體的安全"},{"start":464.264,"end":491.154,"text":"以及相關的行控然後還有你也可以把它的時數給控制住甚至我之前就提過說範圍可以控制以北北基桃中張頭雲嘉南高高屏用通勤的概念先示範好不好這個我們一併納入好市長這是第一個部分抱歉主席站起來但是還有另外一個也很重要的議題我今天有準備那個桃園機場捷運他們在10月的時候有回報說他們要採購這個列車"},{"start":493.715,"end":500.599,"text":"一個是要採購6輛直達車跟4輛的一個普通車但發覺說是卡關為什麼是因為那個零件說"},{"start":502.031,"end":528.265,"text":"沒有再生產了那到目前為止我們要怎麼協助因為今年3月才在交通委員會去桃園視察的時候才講信誓旦旦承諾這有補不管是有中央有補助或是等等的部分我們要讓機場公司來買列車啊那現在因為T-pass以及我們很多的這個使用的一個習慣所以早上桃園林口要來台北這班班都爆滿可是他現在車廂買不進來有沒有了解這個問題"},{"start":533.721,"end":551.59,"text":"我沒有掌握到這個問題我最近會跟台灣市政府來召開會議來研商一下還沒有召開會議啊10月就爆發的事情到現在你跟我講說已經過三個月了我本來以為是你要跟我講說解決方法你現在才要再召開會議因為這個原來的耗資廠商確實現在有供應上的問題原來的耗資廠商當時是誰簽的"},{"start":557.799,"end":565.574,"text":"當時是前高鐵局是前高鐵局嘛也就是鐵道局嘛是不是那結果簽了多久之後那原耗資廠商就倒了"},{"start":566.718,"end":588.101,"text":"倒了嘛是的是那現在就變成是說它是被德國新聞紙併購了不管是併購不管是消失反正它就是不見了那現在變成是說你找不到原本的廠商所以現在就傳出說12項零件裡面有7項是已經停產了造成說我們現在機場捷運的那些車廂要去買的話買不到新的車廂"},{"start":589.485,"end":614.433,"text":"那這問題要怎麼解決這個我想你不可能直接推給不能推給地方政府是吧並不會是的是所以什麼時候要找地方政府來溝通我們已經在安排會議了什麼時候應該是在年前就會召開因為我開通章昨天的前天就已經發出去了這期我沒有記得抱歉好 次長這一個問題為什麼會特別點出來也一樣"},{"start":618.266,"end":640.225,"text":"淨零碳排我們大家都重視要用淨零碳排就是要有大眾運輸工具大眾運輸工具裡面就是要讓大家能夠方便來做來搭乘那現在如果說連我們都已經編列了預算結果我們要買車廂買不到我覺得是華天下之大機啊這真的是笑話變成是我們要買方市場照理講全世界這不是戰鬥機不是飛機耶"},{"start":642.614,"end":659.26,"text":"捷運車廂不是戰鬥機不是飛機不算是賣方市場應該說買方市場我們編了錢結果我們還買不到那洪委員因為你的時間已經超過一倍了是不是這個問題那個高鐵局已經要要開會了是不是可以請洪委員也可以出席"},{"start":660.08,"end":674.072,"text":"就是說這個會議侯偉仁可以適合出席嗎讓他可以去比較進一步了解我們會議結果再跟委員來做報告還是會議結論再跟侯偉仁報告趙偉只派工作給我做要我去盯你們好好開會沒有我覺得趙偉這樣講也是對"},{"start":676.494,"end":704.511,"text":"你不要說技術層面不要說是技術層面的會議啊該怎麼樣開會因為這個是包括桃園市包括新北市包括台北市通勤的民眾使用積極的民眾大家都關心的甚至現在你說你要國國際的觀光市場要恢復那國際觀光市場要恢復你的桃園機場的品質你要起來嘛提供本席什麼時候開會那並且市長我真的要求您您要主動的來去督導"},{"start":705.93,"end":719.672,"text":"好不好對 你要主動來督導不要把它放任就是放成下面去看因為這不是地方政府的責任而已我覺得這應該是交通部要整體考量集結現在既然已經"},{"start":720.919,"end":736.891,"text":"有運輸了早上現在真的是班班客滿那最需要的就是趕快買新的車廂然後能夠增加這個運量可以嗎好這部分我們呃會來跟鐵道局來共同看怎麼樣來解決好再請提供本期相關資料好不好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158782","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158782","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb58d852f6c4caf2d5189b82b4e80112db2549197707589a2149604f80897a2691b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"12:43:26 - 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謝謝主席 主席有請交通部陳政務次長請陳次長委員好次長好 我們今天討論淨零碳排那低碳永續無縫的大眾運輸是我們共同努力的目標那為了要實現淨零碳排我們都鼓勵民眾多加使用大眾交通運輸工具嘛那次長大眾運輸工具的前提是什麼"},{"start":28.452,"end":43.049,"text":"呃應該是說他應該是呃應該費率有一定的這個負擔的期啊那相關的路線啊整合啊時間上應該是對那讓呃民眾願意去達成是次長您提到費率還有路線呢那前提是要有"},{"start":43.53,"end":56.121,"text":"才能讓民眾來做使用那只有當更多人越多越多人來使用這個大眾運輸工具我們才能往近領碳排的目標來邁進那如果基礎建設不足不完善我們說再多政策都是空談那這個觀點市長您認為呢同意"},{"start":58.823,"end":84.416,"text":"同意 那本席選區有一個重大的交通建設捷運三陰線延伸至八德一岸本席一再的談到那從10月18交通組的質詢有問過院長那院長僅說他會加速核定的流程那9月20號至今交通部呈報到行政院已經110天了那其中在委員會的時候本席也有向部長來做反應希望能夠來盡速核定因為交通部"},{"start":85.296,"end":90.852,"text":"則無旁貸那依舊還在卡關中那次長您知道三一線什麼時候完工嗎"},{"start":96.604,"end":122.232,"text":"這個要查一下這要查一下 今年114年就要完工了延伸段我剛剛問次長是問山陰縣那規劃通車是115年的上半年可是目前山陰縣延伸到巴德的一岸卻卡在行政院是 那交通部這邊可以來做什麼協助難道不用向院長來做反應嗎"},{"start":123.782,"end":139.663,"text":"我想委員這部分我們來瞭解一下然後來向行政院來看怎麼樣來尋求相關交通部應該知道國發會以及新北市政府台南市政府都是樂觀其成的吧那交通部的立場呢"},{"start":140.543,"end":160.697,"text":"因為都已經經過相關的審查我們也是一樣樂觀啟展也是支持的是那我們看到下一張簡報那本席不得不說啊別人是永遠大不了大都啊我們是永遠大不了的結合定都一直都是到不了這條山陰線都到不了八德那拜託次長這邊再次的向院長交通部這邊來做向院長來做反應"},{"start":161.678,"end":172.423,"text":"那因為這條三一線延伸至八的是我們地方的重大建設那希望交通可以積極的向院長向行政院來爭取反映我們還有地方基層的心聲好嗎"},{"start":173.775,"end":194.028,"text":"我們來向行政院來反映因為農曆新年也快到了希望交通部可以送給我們地方這份大禮我們盡量來努力OK好那接下來我們看到今天我們今天要討論的議題那隨著全球暖化加劇2024年全球危險高溫增加了41天那有26起極端天災造成3700人死亡"},{"start":195.529,"end":222.483,"text":"那根據聯合國氣象組織的報告那全球毀滅性的洪災有16起那其中15起就是因為全球氣候變遷導致降雨量異常這是有直接的關係如果不迅速來減少碳排的話那本世紀末全球氣溫上升它恐怕是上升是2.6到3.1的攝氏度的目標那遠超過巴黎氣候協議設定的1.5攝氏度那本席這邊也請我們我們能源署的副署長"},{"start":224.09,"end":239.562,"text":"好 主席吳副署長 謝謝好 請吳副署長各位好副署長好 那您剛剛也有聽到 那這個建立坦白已經是刻不容緩了 您同意嗎"},{"start":241.394,"end":267.934,"text":"是的 我們現在院裡也有相關的政策去應對因為汽油燃燒它產生的大量的二氧化碳還有汽車所排出來的碳是造成溫室效應的主要原因之一所以我們應該來想說要怎麼來提高民眾使用大眾運輸的意願那電費的調漲會增加大眾系統運輸的營運成本然後進一步的影響票價那之前本席也有向部長提出來"},{"start":270.475,"end":298.541,"text":"電價的調漲組的機關是經濟部還有能源署那這邊今天也來就叫我們副署長然後還有次長那根據資料顯示這次電價漲調漲之後台電他增加了4.56億然後北捷3.9億還有高鐵3.6到3.7億那其實各大的軌道的系統電費都增加了那為了因應電價那交通部這邊還有像我們機場捷運高雄捷運還有台北捷運他也取消了優惠然後也調整了優惠那這一次"},{"start":299.588,"end":312.077,"text":"有三個捷運的系統他已經取消了部分的優惠那北捷常客的優惠也縮水他影響到30萬的通勤族那請問次長您知道北捷常客的優惠是是什麼嗎是什麼樣的方案嗎"},{"start":315.687,"end":338.588,"text":"具體的方案我不是很清楚但是我瞭解他是應該是搭乘的次數搭乘一定的次數對他是以搭乘的次數來做計算然後跟回饋嘛比如說11到20次他是他的回饋比例是10%那21到30次他可以回饋到15%那這樣往上類推那本身以助理以我的助理來做舉例他每天立法院跟住家來往返一個月"},{"start":339.268,"end":356.2,"text":"一天的平均車資是65元那一個月我們以20天來做計算的話搭乘次數是40次他可以享受到20%的回饋是260元那這樣子一個月下來他的車資是1040元即使他沒有使用TPAS"},{"start":356.42,"end":384.985,"text":"可是優惠收水之後他車資也增加了所以他有向本席來做意見上面的分享那也因為這個車資的調整讓他考慮其他的通勤方式那這是通勤的部分然後我們看到公司的部分像陶基公司還有台鐵公司郵政公司港務公司那他的水電費也是增加的那其中以台鐵4.43億增加最多那這四間公司都是掌管交通的業務那次長這樣子會不會直接接下來"},{"start":385.826,"end":387.78,"text":"的調整會不會影響到我們民眾的生活"},{"start":390.137,"end":414.318,"text":"我先分兩塊 剛才上一塊是有關這個北捷的常客優惠的那一部分那一部分其實也是剛才委員特別提到就是鼓勵公共運輸所以交通部 公路局大概在這個應該是在不久會推出所謂常客優惠的一個方案會去救這個市長您說不久後會推出不久後是多久之後應該是這個月吧"},{"start":416.259,"end":431.478,"text":"這個月什麼時候會公佈近期會公佈我想近期我們的相關的這個新春記者會吧應該會來做公佈新春記者會是在這個月嗎月中月中的時候會來做公佈"},{"start":432.779,"end":459.797,"text":"是有一個常客優惠的一個方案會來推出那至於說這個各個這個公司相關那個水電的一個漲價我想相關那個費用會不會反映到他們的那個還是要看公司治理他們的來考慮那目前我的了解他們大概都維持現有的一個營運方式那本席這邊請教副署長一個問題副署長您也聽到了來節省他的相關的電費那未來三年電費還會做調漲嗎"},{"start":463.137,"end":466.884,"text":"公委報告那個電價要不要變動是電價審議會的權責電價審議會的權責那這邊請教副署長過去幾年我們電價調漲了多少就工業電價來說"},{"start":478.895,"end":485.116,"text":"這一次這個詳細數字我再告訴你詳細數字2022年調漲了15%2023年調漲了17%2024年的4月調了14%10月又調了14%這是您的業務您不清楚嗎詳細的數字我剛剛詳細的數字已經跟你說啦但是我跟我們報告一下因為畢竟台電你知道調漲天價會造成也會影響到民眾嗎所以那個"},{"start":507.423,"end":527.647,"text":"其實院理已經有協商過就是說如果這個就是說公司就是因為台電畢竟他還是一個公司他還是要根據電費的收入來維持他經常性的營運那如果就是說各部會如果有相關的一些他自己所管的業務說需要有做一些補助的話還是要"},{"start":527.927,"end":550.74,"text":"那本席這邊沒有要跟您討論能源政策那也希望就是我們不希望票價再漲了進而影響民眾搭乘大眾運輸的意願那這邊也請交通部跟能源署來做跨部會的討論針對我們交通運輸工具的部分沒有問題我覺得票價的調整因為影響很多民眾的出行這個這部分交通部會審慎處理OK好謝謝次長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158781","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158781","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb58a10f7728c73c94ef9b82b4e80112db2549197707589a214935932578338c4f7e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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謝謝請郭部長"},{"start":27.736,"end":50.812,"text":"部長好 因為您上任之後短短的幾個月 三個次長都陸陸續續要退休嘛有的是已經退休 像林全仁 陳振祺 接下來連錦璋都要退休那我早上看到您回答其他委員的說法是說都是立法院給的壓力太大了 所以他們退休嘛那為什麼立法院就只有給他們壓力 其他的部為什麼都沒有這個問題"},{"start":52.093,"end":80.348,"text":"因為他還沒有到達退休年齡所以是只要其他部的次長有到達退休年齡那因為承受不了大院給的壓力所以就會退休不一定啦我的意思是說他到達退休年齡他可以選擇未來是不是繼續在這個環境裡面去努力或者他可以選擇他的第二村那他為什麼不願意留在這個地方努力因為大院給的壓力太大"},{"start":80.888,"end":87.478,"text":"所以都是立法委員的問題我沒有說是立法委員的問題你說是立法委員給壓力啊"},{"start":90.421,"end":115.012,"text":"我是說這個環境給我們的壓力環境給你們壓力但是環境壓力然後走的都是次長我是覺得部長你應該思考一下因為這個次長他的次我第一任次長是借領退了這個跟我有沒有接這個是沒有關係的是那另外兩個第二個也是啊他本來也要在520就退了是我把他留下來因為我剛到這個"},{"start":119.466,"end":137.805,"text":"第三個連市長他非常優秀他也做了但他身體開始有一些因為這個狀況為什麼會被拿來討論這是很罕見非常罕見之前我問行政秘書長的時候他說他做公務員這麼久也沒有看過這樣的狀況"},{"start":138.976,"end":164.307,"text":"就是一個部長上任幾個月,下面全部都退休我想這個就是會引起人的關注,就是無巧不成書嘛對阿,這個很巧啦你可能覺得自己很棒,跟你沒問題,所以說是立法委員壓力很大我覺得人才的流失其實對國家都是損失啦如果說您可以多盡一分心力,說不定這些人才可以留住,好不好"},{"start":164.907,"end":189.445,"text":"然後接下來跟你問一些不同的議題啦像因為我們早上也有看到別的委員有跟你請教啦就說中鋼現在配合經濟部的政策投資了台智電嘛或是台智能啦講法不一樣那部長您的說法是說如果你覺得中鋼沒有跟工會談好的話你就會請中鋼退出是這個意思嗎我不知道有沒有聽錯"},{"start":190.706,"end":207.743,"text":"沒有錯我的意思就是說如果他沒有得到工會的支持沒有得到同仁的支持那他硬來投資我覺得也沒有那個力量但是代表說經濟部對於中鋼是有影響力的嘛沒有沒有影響力你怎麼會叫他退就退一定是有影響力他才會退啊NO"},{"start":208.303,"end":223.619,"text":"不是這樣子那你怎麼叫他對我們是建議他你建議他我沒有命令他我是建議他你建議他他可以不理你就對但是我們來看一下中鋼的股權的結構好不好經濟部在中鋼裡面就佔了大概20%嘛"},{"start":225.172,"end":237.586,"text":"實際上是最大關股是有影響力的但我們今天在這邊提醒部長是說經濟部在做任何的決策的時候其實都會影響到小股東小股東是多少人小股東是100多萬人"},{"start":239.448,"end":259.398,"text":"所以他不是只有要配合經濟部的政策的問題啊而是說你也要兼顧到一百多萬小股東的權益啊是 完全同意這個委員的指教啊對 所以如果說部長您的意思是你可以建議他那我相信你建議他因為你又是他的最大股幾乎就是可以做這個決策啦"},{"start":259.778,"end":282.867,"text":"但是他還要考慮其他80%的股東啊一定是你們可以你如果講說你沒辦法影響我就聽不下去了啊現在連董事長都是官派的你影響不了我們只有兩席是官派的兩席我們只有兩席我們沒有辦法影響他我們只能建議他我覺得大家不會相信你的說法其實你是可以"},{"start":283.507,"end":306.73,"text":"可以叫他做這個事嗎然後再來我跟您請教一下為什麼每一次配合經濟部政策都是中鋼啊之前是中鋼要配合然後去投資那個星達海基後來賠了64億然後現在中鋼又要去處理這個做一個那個購電平台台灣難道沒有其他的有賺錢的國營事業可以做這個事嗎為什麼都是中鋼啊"},{"start":308.434,"end":330.646,"text":"這個是因為他有綠電需求中鋼本人那其他的其他大企業有沒有綠電需求有他們是股東對所以意思是說因為中鋼有綠電需求所以你乾脆你就乾脆就上下游整合你來做這個綠電的是這個意思嗎是的是喔那沒有其他條件喔沒有符合其他條件企業只有中鋼可以"},{"start":331.778,"end":354.732,"text":"其他的有綠電需求我們都歡迎他加入啊那再跟你請教一下因為早上我有看到你提到那個輝達要在台灣設廠嘛那經濟部幫他找土地嗎沒有沒有沒有他們自己找土地所以經濟部有要協助嗎經濟部只是幫助他們水電人然後土地他自己找"},{"start":355.779,"end":365.728,"text":"他說他要自己找那他找哪個地你再去找那個地的水跟電是不是我們大概基本上啊在整個在規劃的過程裡面"},{"start":368.206,"end":392.672,"text":"我們每一個縣市都會有充分的水跟電所以我們在這個桃竹苗大溪谷跟我們南方大溪谷嘉南高坪通通是完整的這個供給給他們水跟電所以他可以就這一部分來所以你有確定他不管選擇台灣的哪個縣市我們的電是絕對無虞的"},{"start":393.972,"end":414.637,"text":"我們也不會說像以前好像台電講的如果哪個縣市沒有辦法自己供電的話就不發展那個產業這個可能都是大家在溝通上面有一點誤解怎麼都是大家有問題不是 大家在溝通上面有誤解那所以實際上是怎樣實際上就是滿足所有的所有的 反正只要產業落腳在哪個縣市我們都會滿足就對 是這個意思是的那所以"},{"start":422.194,"end":442.489,"text":"部長就是確定但是你不知道哪裡但我是希望部長如果你有土地建議的話可以考慮一下我們北部因為我們剛剛講到興達海基後來有一個它虧損的原因部長您有提到因為它在興達漁港吃水不夠可是那個時候為什麼會選擇在興達漁港難道你要選擇做風電的時候你不會去研究它的水有多深嗎"},{"start":443.67,"end":461.542,"text":"所以這是不是高雄市政府當時其實非常歡迎新大海基過去不是 那個時候的環境是可以的但是現在的大型的風電改變太多了不是啦 那你投資你不會去評估說未來的環境有沒有可能改變你就直接投資幾十億下去喔"},{"start":462.382,"end":475.158,"text":"這個投資也太草率了吧這個也是我們應該檢討的部分為什麼他們會這麼草率所以那時候是不是高雄市政府要求他去所以他們就必須要去我真的不太相信中鋼的投資有這麼短淺啊"},{"start":476.738,"end":499.392,"text":"我真的不相信啦而且那個東西不是很難的評估嘛這個漁港到底池水多深可不可以做這個產業怎麼可能會評估不了因為這個是一個新的產業啦所以他的這個變化大概大家在經驗的這個領域裡面大概比較缺乏那學費也交太多了吧是是是謝謝委員的指導謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158774","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158774","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb5824db889768ad757da56fd3a12bc29fbbe734c898429ef19a268cb4a8a8bd5f905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:11:19 - 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謝謝主席那我們是有請經濟部部長請郭部長那能源署署長也一樣請游署長好"},{"start":26.15,"end":54.219,"text":"來 部長部長因為我們現在政策有在講這個節能那事實上我也看到了說最近在討論這個節能也把它分為三個階段那第一個階段是建立ASCO的一個執行模式然後第二階段公營事業的導入第三階段才要擴散至民營事業那我現在想要請教部長我們現在要建立ASCO的一個執行模式那也就是說"},{"start":55.279,"end":74.634,"text":"這個Xcode它大概就是一個租賃的一個概念那未來就是說我們使用了可能一些設備上的更新那用節能的效力來設算說我們要怎麼跟這個提供設備的廠商它的價格所以它是一個比較新的一個概念那我要"},{"start":75.715,"end":102.085,"text":"問的就是說我們現在要建立這樣的一個exco的一個執行模式的話那我們是不是有足夠的數據足以支撐我們到底未來節能的效益是多少因為這一個話他是強調的他是數據的真實性假如數據勒是有問題的或者是這個數據是錯誤的就會造成我們之後跟這些廠商他們的價格的計算上就會有落差"},{"start":103.045,"end":118.475,"text":"那這樣的話就會讓我們這個節能的一個這樣的一個方向真的就會糟蹋了所以部長我現在想要請教的就是說那我們現在到底是由誰來做價格的節能效率的擬定"},{"start":119.366,"end":146.515,"text":"好 這個部長可以說明一下嗎是 報告員這個部分呢我們會先建立這個量測驗證的這個制度那麼先做出一個標準就好像我們在檢查身體一樣去檢查一個公司去檢查一個宿業那它哪個地方有問題那必須要這個產生的這個能量用的能量比較多產生的碳比較多的地方我們要幫助它減碳"},{"start":147.575,"end":176.65,"text":"然後我們大概發三個方向第一個就是檢查它的照明第二個檢查它的空調的能耗再來就是它的動力的能耗包括照明空調跟動力這個都是高耗電耗電就等於會增加碳然後我們會有建議就是說在換的過程裡面有建議一些廠商這些廠商是經過我們標準局選定的它是最有能效的"},{"start":177.21,"end":205.297,"text":"然後這個價格是公告在上面的就是我們會公告然後讓他們自己選項我們不是只有一家廠商我們可能很多的家廠商在上面給這個做exco的公司他就可以選擇因為我們如果能夠集中幾個廠牌它因為數量大它的成本就可以降低這個是我們的目的所以我們先把標準建立先把標準建立然後再去衡量它然後再建議它怎麼改"},{"start":205.797,"end":228.93,"text":"然後在改的時候我們又幫助他可以買到比較成本低的這個效果高的這些商品好就是說部長大概我可以理解你剛剛講的一個方式但是我們在做EXCO射算的時候究竟我們是用我們這間辦公室整體的耗電"},{"start":229.89,"end":242.249,"text":"那跟我用ASCO我把它做這些燈具啦空調的改換之後然後耗電然後去做這樣的比落差的比對還是用單一產品這支電費"},{"start":246.034,"end":268.722,"text":"這個電話它的耗電是怎樣未來我把它換成其他的東西它的耗電是怎樣是單一產品的比較後再把它放大然後再精算還是它是用整個的數據的精算這個不知道喔在衡量的時候在檢測的時候應該就是整個空間所產生的這些能耗通通計算"},{"start":269.262,"end":282.365,"text":"那如果折舊的部分呢因為這個電器如果用久了它的耗損率會提高耗損率提高自然它就相對更加耗能了所以我們建議它越快換越好"},{"start":286.283,"end":309.929,"text":"這個數據很重要我不希望說我們這樣一個好的一個方向那我們這個可以想像未來政府也會投入不少是因為要做EXCO然後等於是很多設備的更換那我不希望在這個更換的過程中造成不必要的浪費好不好是的好那我再問第二個是不是請我們水利署那能源署可以先請賴署長賴署長"},{"start":313.727,"end":341.905,"text":"來 部長跟署長我現在比較在意我們今年度要執行外省鼎州的固殺那我們的計畫是怎樣 今年度外省鼎州的部分過去跟公司協力合作的有成效那我們今年除了延續過去公司協力在做這些所謂的柯架在做柔性的工法之外那我也請同仁去研究是不是跟我們柯農"},{"start":343.445,"end":363.058,"text":"來大家來討論一下時間因為比較少我直接跟你講一些我在地方看到的因為外山頂洲我們之前在做這些公司協力然後做這一些用蚵棚去做固砂對不對前幾年沒有蜂胎啦今年就蜂胎了看起來這一個蜂胎"},{"start":366.742,"end":389.315,"text":"過去我們做的那一些,那些客家去那邊動海浪的,破壞的很多所以可以基本上那個大自然的力量就這麼強所以我認為說我們在如果沒有一些變通我們一樣是每年去這些公司協力,然後這些客家去那邊用,反不及急啦"},{"start":390.385,"end":418.774,"text":"外産頂桌這個消失的速度真的是非常的快那一旦外産頂桌消失了後裡面的那些養科的產業每年40億的產值也會跟著全軍覆沒所以外産頂桌是很重要的那我們現在實施固殺計畫到目前已經第三年了前兩年效果有出來因為前兩年沒有紅胎那今年剛才紅胎哇馬上就面臨這兩年的努力被破壞蠻多的所以我們現在要思考的"},{"start":420.534,"end":439.983,"text":"署長我還是具體講,我從之前就跟你們說,我們可能要用抽砂要用抽砂,有的塞旁邊的沙,抽去往沙頂丟,然後在外山頂周的中間製造一個中央山脈就是在那裏要做一個高牆,你還硬打過,這個山脈把他擋住,不要讓他硬抓,把沙都戳下來"},{"start":446.221,"end":462.908,"text":"就是說一定要有一個管的地方,不然它這樣在裡面,它就是一直刷一直流下去然後就一直流到東石,然後就會變成整個東石是內陸化東石的外海內陸化,那就是現在我們在講我們擔心的未來整個這個氧化的產業會消滅"},{"start":464.822,"end":484.936,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在做的方向就是委員所說的我們現在還沒有抽殺我們還沒有再抽殺過去公司協力這個是基本的未來複合性的加強性的抽殺的這個部分一定要做這個效果才會好但是這個要跟地方大家一起來溝通沒問題沒問題該溝通我一定會協助溝通那我想這個應該要來做因為公司協力還是要繼續嘛那是一個在海岸下的一個基礎的東西"},{"start":494.902,"end":517.956,"text":"但是我們現在歡樂的是因為黑硬來一直打這個外産地都一直打進來嘛所以我們一定要在動的,在黑硬打動在這裡不要讓那個力量繼續延伸然後把整個沙都往內陸帶進來好不好我覺得我們這一些工法上要怎麼做是有效率的我們就要緊貼著不能再做光旺的一個態度了好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158773","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158773","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb582cbeeaefb745c9fba56fd3a12bc29fbbe734c898429ef19ac7e4384474ecec015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:04:17 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請台堂總經理跟董事長請吳董事長跟我們的陳總經理哇 今天5加1喔 5加1只有360秒來 這個董事長剛上任我想我先問總經理這個有機米"},{"start":37.993,"end":61.457,"text":"董事長你先休息一下因為你剛上面有機米現在台北市中小學都供應做營養午餐都是台南有機米你要把它擴展到全國高雄市 台南市 台中市都要用你們有機米那麼好的品質台北市都用了你們有沒有什麼計畫是 謝謝委員那委員講的也是我們所想的就是說你還走啊"},{"start":63.169,"end":74.875,"text":"你打入台北市那其他的縣市其他的都要去是我們會後續我們會一個月給我這個相關你們規劃報告好一個月是是是那個台塘土地啊"},{"start":76.318,"end":92.695,"text":"這個土地多很容易被非法侵盜這個部分你們有沒有什麼方案目前有沒有相關統計說你們監管機制要如何去強化那你現在你們土地有多少被非法侵盜廢棄物有沒有相關數據包委員我們"},{"start":97.64,"end":115.07,"text":"在這兩三年以來我們大幅的去加強我們土地巡查的相關的一個作業的一個機制以及我們在比較我們也篩選出來一些所謂的我們認為高風險的一個地區如果發現不法有沒有提告有 你要積極作為要把你們土地管理好不要變成廢棄物的天堂"},{"start":125.009,"end":145.781,"text":"這個部分我只要提醒你把這個問題做徹底解決另外我告訴你們這個廠房停工損失包括你的土地稅會損失很多土地利用改善你們要加強去監理你知道我在說什麼有些廠房停工已經到34年你要怎麼樣讓你的停工廠房去活化再利用"},{"start":146.661,"end":164.219,"text":"不要因為這個相關稅金所持那麼多這部分再請台東再去了解因為董事長剛剛上任我把問題點出來下一位請忠祐董事長跟總經理請方董事長跟張總經理兩位請回座"},{"start":174.609,"end":189.615,"text":"青能車上路全球已經有上萬輛青能車那現在台灣還是沒有任何的加薪站本來在高雄要設所做的加薪站你目前的規劃是延到什麼時候"},{"start":190.792,"end":205.221,"text":"跟委員報告嘉青站現在已經機械完工了那麼在這個月10號我們會遞件申請使用執照那麼當中同步在進行一些系統上的測試在進行中預計我們應該第二季應該可以取得使用我們落後太多了"},{"start":206.061,"end":229.952,"text":"就是說跟國際的氫能的這個發展我們已經落後太多你如果沒有這個未來以後全部用氫能你沒有一個加氣站加氣站怎麼辦這是很大的問題所以我希望你們是不是能夠三個月之內你們為了要趕上全球氫能運輸的發展你們提出三個月的三個月之內提出中長期的政策規劃是好謝謝另外你們海管我們現在要蓋海管"},{"start":231.811,"end":254.444,"text":"這個中國啊 這個無所不用其破壞台灣的安定 破壞能源安全台灣的海嵐 你們現在也要蓋這個相關的海嵐永安 永安到通宵 第二條的海底運輸 通宵到大潭所以未來如果蓋成之後 如何要加強防範這些你們有什麼想法 相關的想法嗎是 我們先從"},{"start":255.925,"end":274.93,"text":"海管本質上海管本身它是埋在海底下面0.5到1公尺之間同時這個海管本身它有鋼筋混凝土去保護所以它沒辦法破壞可以破壞但是它有相當的保護這第一點第二個如果說它走的路徑要跨過海嵐的話"},{"start":277.671,"end":295.9,"text":"那在相关的施作上也有一些标准的规范会去制作按照规范来去实施比如说电缆在下面的话它先会铺一个垫子在上面然后海管走在上面之后铺一些碎石石头去把它保护起来"},{"start":296.52,"end":325.641,"text":"是啦 我是說 這個點出這個問題你們未來鋪 要設海管的部分這個輸氣管很重要 不能讓它斷氣所以輸氣管很重要 你如果以為被它破壞它如果真的要做 它可能可不可以做得到報告委員 這個可能是國防的議題我太專業 我沒辦法回答你但是防護是你的 實質是你的工作嘛你要確保讓它沒有辦法破壞你的這個海管嘛 對不對所以這部分 你"},{"start":326.687,"end":345.825,"text":"未來要很多的這個書記管這部分你要做最大的努力讓他確保不會有任何被破壞的狀況好是是我們願意好最後60秒來請各位請回請這個部長跟那個能源署署長請郭部長游署長我現在在質詢的都精準質詢的好"},{"start":351.775,"end":368.544,"text":"新達電廠的核聚合種,我已經講太多次了新達海基,這幾年繞了六、七十年就此停頓下來解散,還是未來你川普2.0他全球離岸封建政策會改變"},{"start":371.479,"end":394.452,"text":"不希望在美國蓋離岸封建所以離岸封建會回到歐亞這個部分會降低他的成本未來興大海基有沒有機會興大海基因為我們不是把這個公司結束掉我們只是說他現在是維持嘛那他既有的這個員工跟既有的這個技術已經成長的這個技術我們會開拓到他可以發展的這個地方所以他不會解散"},{"start":395.933,"end":412.927,"text":"他不會倒閉他不會倒閉啦我們現在正在研擬如果幫助他展開你要繼續成長你要繼續讓他營業你要投入更多的資金欸不是我們會跟他就是說因為現在台灣還是有很多的這個這個需求嘛"},{"start":413.487,"end":427.226,"text":"那現在問題是我們在這個興達港的那個港的條件是不夠我很熟啊這個我每天都要搬來巡港是呀這個部分是不是上個月提出這個興達海基轉型的計畫是好我先趕趕謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158767","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158767","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb58904cd8233358e87e9b82b4e80112db25eefebb33f59272383b3d0bf90661b4be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:13:15 - 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我們有請交通部陳政次還有公務局陳局長請陳次長還有陳局長委員好"},{"start":18.48,"end":41.838,"text":"鄭次郭局長早安我想我們今天討論的進行排放的這個政策之前我想我們還是先關心所謂一個行人地域改善的一個問題我想今年1月3號我們交通部有召開一個記者會針對各縣市危險路口改善的狀況有點名的桃園彰化跟屏東縣還沒有完成改善"},{"start":42.478,"end":54.346,"text":"那這樣子也會被許多鄉親擔心說我們是大安表現比較差的一個縣市那這段期間也剛好發生了這個部長跟桃園市政府在爭論部長到底是這個訓導主任還是輔導老師的爭議然後講姑且這個爭議不斷"},{"start":61.511,"end":77.212,"text":"不論這個爭議是怎麼一回事啊我想未來交通的這個行人地域的改善才是我們的重中之重的一個工作我們也希望能夠盡快來完成那屏東縣政府面臨的困境就是在於說我們過去的這個整個經費的一個評估上面"},{"start":77.672,"end":99.515,"text":"交通部給予的經費都不足造成我們流標的一個現象像最近就是發生了連續流標三次然後我想縣政府也很頭痛也很傷腦筋那針對這樣子的一個經費的不足然後還有持續這個未來這個改善的計畫交通部是不是可以給予我們屏東縣政府什麼樣的一個支持的一個力道請政治回答"},{"start":101.027,"end":128.888,"text":"我想交通部在有關各縣市有關這個行人改善應該是永續行人提升計畫裡面那分為兩部分一部分是內政部在補助一部分是交通部在補助的那原則上我的瞭解交通部補助的大概相關的計畫都完成而且經費也沒有問題那部分是大概是有關內政部的部分那這部分我們會來協助這個屏東縣政府如何來跟內政部多爭取一些必要的經費來辦理好"},{"start":130.469,"end":149.521,"text":"那我想這是這個很道路的交通安全不分部會啦所以我才會講說我們看到的是說這個不管是內政部補助要還是交通部在補助我們應該是針對整個一個交通的路況交通的一個環境的一個整體的一個評估不能各做各的啊各做各的湊不起來啊"},{"start":151.366,"end":171.262,"text":"所以我比較擔心是在於說當我們有很多的一個規劃卻沒有跨部會轉合的時候會變成各行各自各自各做各自的但是到最後這個不管是行人也好不管是我們的機車或汽車的這個用路人也好他們會覺得這個設計上是有出現很多的一個問題那我想"},{"start":173.524,"end":192.571,"text":"我們這邊也過去有提了幾個案例也有請我們相關的部會來協助那我想這部分還是要再提醒一下我們交通部一定要我們還是要負起這個監護這個責任那另外我先要提到就是我們最近有做了一個很多的一個人行人屁股島的一個設施但是我想部長在臉書上提到說"},{"start":193.371,"end":218.63,"text":"庇護島就是要讓行人更安全但是呢這個部分不但是要去減少所謂的一個駕駛不當切西瓜的一個行為也要減少一個交通事故但是很遺憾的我們從數據上看見去年至少有1000件車輛自撞這個交通這個庇護島的一個案件所以我們這個整個政策的規劃上面是不是有出現一個問題包含我的助理自己騎摩托車"},{"start":220.211,"end":238.659,"text":"就好幾次幾乎都撞到那我們發現這個從圖面上來看這個整個這個標線的設計還有反光的一個設計我想沒有發揮很大的一個功用尤其是夜間這個視線不良非常非常的危險那真的這樣的一個庇護島的一個設置那市長這邊有沒有什麼一個改進的一個方案"},{"start":243.126,"end":259.339,"text":"原則上因為這個屁股島基本上大概道路的寬度比較寬行人就是說在通行的時候其實希望就是說在路中還是有一個這個保護那當然就是說有些的這一個這個撞擊的部分就是"},{"start":260.039,"end":281.389,"text":"有些駕駛人他自己本身就是並沒有到道路的中心線才左轉彎他有可能就像委員說的他切西瓜直接切過去所以視覺的這個整個的一個這個角度我覺得可能跟這個P5島或許就是說他沒有看清楚另外當然P5島其實在相關的這個道路交通標誌標線號誌設置上面譬如說包括這個警告的標線進障礙物的這個標線還有就是說這個反光設施"},{"start":288.992,"end":306.49,"text":"還有這個上面還有一些警告的分道標誌我是覺得說可能有一些的地方是不是就是說他的這個整個的這個屁股島的他的標誌標線他沒有設置的很完整我想這個部分可能有些部分是各單位的我們也會來跟內政部一起來檢討"},{"start":307.951,"end":324.486,"text":"部長我還是要提醒一個狀況因為現在剛剛林俊憲委員也有提到我們現在的路越開越大條越來越筆直那相對性的我們的燈號也多那個標線也多行人分隔島也多這個五花八門啊這個眼花繚亂啊"},{"start":325.427,"end":346.854,"text":"真的有時候你一個外地人到一個陌生的一個城市真的很容易發生危險啊那所以我剛剛為什麼一直提醒這個事情包含我們現在看到很多縣市的一個商圈我們現在整個在做一個行人環境包含你們講的一個規劃的部分但是我們看到的包含這個人行道的設置不當還有停車空間的不足甚至這個"},{"start":348.094,"end":369.06,"text":"商圈這個貨車的停卸的停貨的空間的規劃我覺得都沒有一個完整的一個配套確實是有很多要改善的空間總不能工程做下去之後這樣再來修改這樣再來處理這都造成很多的黑暗交通黑暗起了一個問題所以這部分我還是要特別提醒交通部我們應該要來全面來盤點來檢視這部分我們一起來努力"},{"start":370.18,"end":382.564,"text":"那另外針對我們2040年這個台灣汽機車電動化的目標的部分那截至目前今年度我想我們設定的目標是2025年電動大客車的普及率35電動小客車1.4還有電動機車要達到7.9的目標那請問一下部長這次這個目標會達成嗎"},{"start":392.083,"end":416.434,"text":"相關的裡頭這裡頭有關公車啦或小客車啦我們大概都有達成預定設定的目標那機車的部分呢目前這個還在努力中啦市售比的話今年應該到17那目前大概是10.7所以這這之前還有一些差距我們還要再努力是這個我們還是要積極來不然我們就是有處理一個指標在那邊但是KPI都達不到"},{"start":417.314,"end":436.067,"text":"這個不管在委員會也好或是在議會都會被檢討我想這個不是為了這個數字而是為了整個我們的這個達到近年轉型的一個目標電動機車我們會再會同經濟部還有環境部共同來看怎麼樣來促進相關的一個普及率"},{"start":436.767,"end":461.552,"text":"對那另外本席這邊也發現我們目前這個大眾運輸工具當中這個電動化最差就是計程車的部分目前全台9萬輛的計程車普及率只有1.5%那其實交通部在110年就有設立一個計程車的一個汰換的要點鼓勵要電動化但是我相對性我們的這個這個雖然有這個規劃但是我們的動作卻很消極"},{"start":462.432,"end":476.714,"text":"那像112年就沒有編列相關經費那113跟114只各編列50輛那這樣子如何達成這樣的一個目標而且我們目前的計程車的量那麼多要怎麼樣做這樣的一個環境的一個改善"},{"start":479.939,"end":507.76,"text":"這個部分我跟委員報告一下之前在108年或109年大概有這個補助計程車他就換新那都是男友的那最主要是要降低國內這個計程車的車領提高服務的品質那現在針對這個計程車希望能夠達到兩個目的第一個部分就是說因為目前啦在今年的話計程車的車領大概平均6.8那以往去啟動這個機制的話大概車領平均到8年那後面"},{"start":508.66,"end":514.221,"text":"剛剛委員所提到的部分就是說未來計程車這個台灣一些機制的啟動的部分目前這個部裡面在規劃這個電動計程車的部分那要跟行政院提期間計畫那這個部分的話最主要就是說那個計程車要去推這個電動化的部分的話一定要有國產車要有這個商用然後性能比較好的部分那也感謝經濟部"},{"start":532.125,"end":554.297,"text":"在這個去年跟今年的部分也推出了這個國產化的兩型的這個電動車那我們現在在觀察這兩型的一個性能之後那目前在研擬這個電動計程車的一個這個這個目標什麼時候可以達成這個有沒有訂立一個KPA的數目我們後面的部分的話應該是2030還是2035希望說能夠達到50%"},{"start":559.496,"end":573.141,"text":"我們大概從明年開始就剛才講有那個旗艦計畫會來補助電動計程車那在應該是2030會有大概台灣一半以上的計程車希望變成是電動化好 那我想我最後一個問題"},{"start":574.221,"end":602.465,"text":"因為我們現在這個小琉球是非常夯的一個旅遊景點我們一年有100多萬的遊客到小琉球來旅遊那他們使用的交通工具都是機車為主那過去我們有喊出一個希望小琉球打造一個低碳島的一個目標但是目前看起來看起來我們目前的這個租車業者更新了上千台的電動車但是整個島的充電站卻吃有兩個地方了"},{"start":603.446,"end":608.15,"text":"這點點都是沒電啦,這車皮要怎麼用這問題要怎麼去協助做改善"},{"start":610.599,"end":637.792,"text":"目前大概小琉球的電動機車大概以國內南部一個車廠的車種為主要啦那相關充電站的佈設大概也是這邊在做這個佈設那這個部分的話我們會同經濟部長說因為那邊有這個充電站的補助那也有電動機車的一個這個補助這個是這個目前那可以再做看看可以更盡興的部分那另外一個部分剛剛這個召委也有提到"},{"start":638.192,"end":659.592,"text":"就是說部裡面今年要來推動這個地攤交通區的部分那目前大概跟這個屏東縣政府大概也有先談過那屏東縣政府大概也有意願就是說針對小琉球這邊希望就是說來提升住院車輛電動化這個部分希望把它列為可以爭取的一個計畫那目前我們就跟屏東縣政府在演繹當中"},{"start":660.533,"end":687.992,"text":"對啦我也是希望交通部我們都定了這個目標地毯島也喊了很久但是這個執行面一直都有落差那希望從這個100多萬的遊客到那邊的一個機車使用不要造成一個環境的一個污染那尤其小琉球又是一個很指標的一個環境我想我們應該更加深做這個區塊做一個很重要的一個示範島那我們一起希望我們部裡面給我們的縣政府更多的一個力道謝謝"},{"start":689.966,"end":689.986,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"158766","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158766","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb58c5641d955fe97d939b82b4e80112db25eefebb33f592723853e0a86760a0e7675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:00:00 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有請我們交通部陳次長請陳次長關公署關公署沒有出席今天關公署沒有人是吧對 關公署沒有很好這樣我直接請教一下因為這是我在今年的3月22號大概去年 已經變去年了9個多月了"},{"start":32.438,"end":52.521,"text":"我們特別在總質詢的時候雖然這個時代已經變了我覺得有一些政策的一個延續我當時在問之前我們政府院長說這個大概五六百萬的轉機旅客轉機旅客在台灣秀在機場就轉出去了如果能夠把它納入變成我們過境觀光"},{"start":53.842,"end":76.903,"text":"的一部分的話不管是近距離能夠有一些產值我們覺得他當時提的idea很好所以我們那時候就問那這個到底要怎麼做預計時程如何所以當時我們陳建仁院長特別說因為轉機關關跨部會確實跨部會跨部會包括要證照啊怎麼路徑啊怎麼安排啊確實跨部會所以要"},{"start":78.26,"end":107.362,"text":"研究 還有研議中 希望早日推動啊那我現在再問這句話就是說 九個月了目前研議的狀況如何 開了期次會呃 呃 委員這容我我本來想要找個署長他沒來嘛 是那你就 呃 自己努力啊呃 不是自己努力還是市長啊 哪個市長知道啊 因為我沒有 因為我沒有開過會啦所以 所以我 我可能相關 呃 關花署應該有相關的研議啦那研議的結果是不是另外提供給委員參考 是所以你沒 你也不知道什麼狀況"},{"start":108.477,"end":116.229,"text":"我知道觀光署有就這部分在研議如何讓這個轉接的旅客能夠進到國內 順道觀光你們那個司長有來嗎負責觀光的司長沒來現在完全沒來那就次長單打了"},{"start":123.274,"end":147.799,"text":"那我依舊說這樣的一個政策因為是讓它有它的一個急迫性這也是我們台灣的一個重要的一個資源在疫情之後說實在的我們台灣的轉機旅客是不斷的向上升機場都是轉機的旅客很多從東南亞轉歐洲的過去都在別的機場現在都在以台灣我們這邊桃園機場為基地"},{"start":150.319,"end":169.415,"text":"所以當這個人數增加的時候我們看的來直接來看一下因為我們好不容易要推嘛過境啊這些過境旅客這個半日遊的一個情況因為他們這個轉機的時間不一定嘛等於半日遊或四個小時就帶他去台灣旅遊消費一下我們來看一下"},{"start":170.799,"end":195.056,"text":"我們得到的數據說你看112年113年113年剛過完轉機旅客在去年你們就11月多給我們的資料連續兩年112年總共有625萬113年667萬其實人數真的是蠻多的跟之前鄭副縣長期許的人數這麼多能不能抓一些留下來結果抓了多少呢這從112年的5月份"},{"start":197.478,"end":209.598,"text":"到13年的11月大概一年七個月總共大概母數我覺得大概差不多800萬到900萬人裡面只留下了1.4萬人"},{"start":211.877,"end":241.409,"text":"能夠過境旅遊那中間有些不是觀光署的問題不是交通的問題嘛所以那時候叫你們去研議為什麼呢因為鎮照他許可進來人本身就少嘛對不對那其他你要很繁複的簽證手續人家那個只有四個小時沒有辦法給你搞這個很多的問題要去解決但是我們現在急的原因就是說你看看喔你看看這個的部分到13年的話才大概1.4萬左右啦齁那其中呢"},{"start":242.981,"end":260.739,"text":"看最下面一行就是在自由行自由行這一點4萬人他自己進來大概自己遊玩的4%專人導覽就各單位觀光單位專人導覽就安排這個部分在台北市的"},{"start":261.44,"end":288.528,"text":"也有大概六千多人 那我們桃園也很急啊因為桃園做集結大概兩三站大概四站就到了嘛 青埔的鬧區啊 或者進市區嘛也有一千多人 新北一百一四人所以我們是覺得確實有這樣的一個機會然後透過你組合的 譬如說簽證你比較有疑慮的就組團式的來進來 所以想方設法欸 次長 你到底要不要做啊"},{"start":290.08,"end":316.821,"text":"我想我跟委員報告委員下面這一行其實現行就有這樣的一個機制只是量實在是很少那剛才委員特別提到如何利用這個轉機的人數來進入國內做大概是短時間的一個觀光這個過境觀光這部分觀光署我的了解他們有內部正在要推一個計畫來辦理這個方向是會朝這個方向去做的"},{"start":317.503,"end":340.099,"text":"好 我想次長 因為現在民航局長大概跟你航空關係也不大嘛你就飛機把他載進來就好了那其實我們現在有蠻多的願景因為就真的很急今年年初去提這件事情結果在大概剩下34天台灣燈會正好在桃園正好在A18的戰區坦白講大概從A17到A19的戰區只要從機場"},{"start":343.905,"end":370.952,"text":"二航廈以二航廈為例的話就大概三到四站就直接參與燈會了所以坦白講如果有過境的一個轉聚旅客這個在這個階段一定是他們首選所以我看起來又搭配不上我今天是真的期許啦我看到部長也特別說這一次因為是12年設計的是一個SIGMA無限的那個概念希望台灣的希望無限那我們也希望交通部跟"},{"start":371.952,"end":390.616,"text":"相關的單位我感覺在轉居旅客這個議題能力展現的非常非常有限真的希望你們能夠認真的加強當然包括了這個官務啊移民署啊真的要來開會一下啦真的要來開會啦有沒有辦法大概什麼時候主導一下"},{"start":391.136,"end":419.301,"text":"我想委員這個建議很好但你不能推給觀光署啦你一定要部長級的甚至找那個要行政院級的才有辦法召集這些人我想委員這部分我會找觀光署來談一下因為這牽涉到觀光署剛才也特別聽到像這個淘機公司啊或者是相關的這個內政部等等單位我們來談一下看如何透過這樣在燈會期間在桃園地區做轉機的旅客看如何可以"},{"start":420.021,"end":444.794,"text":"其實官務最重要啦好不好他官務如果沒有 譬如說移民署這個部分他簽證沒有辦法發或者說短期的沒有辦法去做處理都沒有用那我們再來看看那我今天問觀光署那你就一併回答囉那你今天回答很簡單我會跟觀光署署長講聽說他有做但是我覺得這個問題從你之前做做這個局長到現在次長的時候你應該聽過很多次嘛"},{"start":445.254,"end":462.865,"text":"因為我們觀光署他做了很多的影片過去疫情期間花了很多錢讓大家神遊就是你網路可以透過看影片去各地旅遊結果點閱率非常非常差那我現在蠻急的因為我們台灣都會有時效性對不對"},{"start":464.326,"end":486.306,"text":"以今年來講2月12號就開始了那簡單來講還剩三四天那你們十天前上架的影片啊花了兩百多萬去做影片做三個影片啊國際形象還沒上架啦預計一月上架啦那我們看到你們上架兩個影片啊大概都十天啦從昨天去統計啊第一個影片大概中文"},{"start":487.766,"end":509.235,"text":"點閱人數一千多人嘛那其他我們就不講了第二個影片中文版的點閱大概不到一千人那我不知道啦如果十天如果還剩下三個十天如果我們花幾百萬要弄這樣的這個東西我覺得很奇怪那我拜託次長我也不問你啊因為可能也不清楚那你們這個的部分"},{"start":510.438,"end":525.871,"text":"他們那個廣告 結果我們打電話去問說你們這個做了影片之後現在因為每一個社群平台都有他的演算法哪有讓你那麼輕鬆的你影片做得再好 再唯美不好意思 沒有觸局率啊他不要你去觸局 或者觸局有限"},{"start":526.912,"end":544.74,"text":"所以一定都會要參雜投放所以他跟我講說我們純粹有兩百多萬就請他做影片然後就放到架裡面蛤 也不要投放 精準投放都會在桃園 桃竹苗是不是精準投放 他說沒有那我們再來看看有百分之三十桃園市市政府做的"},{"start":545.74,"end":564.574,"text":"他目前同樣10天10天他目前而且是2分20秒的你們剛剛是30秒到底越短的影片越多人點閱結果他已經3.4萬你們才1000發生什麼事因為人家的錢奇怪還可以請明星當然第二個"},{"start":566.291,"end":589.965,"text":"他們在地方透過地方的FB LINE去幫忙推這個的影片然後又預算裡面15%是投放我要拜託啊能不能跟包括現在所有在座局長你們如果要做這些廣告如果你們的招標案裡面不留投放廣告的這個部分你等於是完完全全就是作廢他留了15%"},{"start":592.467,"end":600.975,"text":"15%所以你回去能夠了解一下建議一下好吧那最後一個問題啊這個問題應該可以回答那一個問題啊現在唐人士政府剩下三四天"},{"start":602.284,"end":631.326,"text":"就要舉辦燈會了你們可不可以也幫幫忙一下你也知道這不是工作天還有三十幾天過年所有的工班所有要人大家都有休假計畫了到底他願不願意配合你能不能事前準備事實上 桃園市政府這個主辦單位就剩十幾天了二十萬就過年了嘛過年之後你再招標不見了大家都休年假了所以 我要拜託一下現在整個的一個接駁接駁的費用他們總共要七千五百萬"},{"start":632.347,"end":643.969,"text":"他們自籌2500萬還需要5000萬左右大約跟去年台南市政府舉辦的金額差不多多100萬這個部分到底批了沒有"},{"start":645.718,"end":670.044,"text":"我想跟委員報告委員很關切這個議題所以我大概也有找他們談了一下原則上我們部裡頭會來支持因為每一年的相關的這種接駁的費用大概都會來支持但是這裡頭的相關的計劃的金額我們有稍微請他們去核算一下所以就那個金額的部分會做一些調整以後會盡速來核定是"},{"start":671.772,"end":699.43,"text":"我跟你講時間真的不多了8號到25號大概兩個多禮拜的時間然後他還要上網招標那第二個呢這些大車的產業街坡車都是我們我想公路局長你也在這裡嘛就最稀缺駕駛都找不到很難搞的所以我希望你們就要不然跟桃園市政府講說要怎麼調大家就講最快速度把它處理好可以嗎"},{"start":699.83,"end":728.268,"text":"可以我跟委員報告有關那個接駁車的其實他們已經照票完了啦所以我才會講到說相關的經費我們可以來做一些調整就怕你們不給啊不會啦我們會給我們會給我講真的最後拜託你帶回去給陳局長陳部長陳部長這個經費是讓他已經承諾好幾次了絕對比去年不會少那去年公務局是3700萬他現在3800萬不會少我們希望真的不要讓地方"},{"start":729.048,"end":743.424,"text":"去等不到這個經費因為這個的公文公務局的是11月27號給你們到目前已經一個多月了那觀光署的好像還沒批下來是11月14號已經接近兩個月了我覺得"},{"start":744.833,"end":770.195,"text":"你們自己的工作早就標好了觀光署都在那邊做的都知道時間怕來不及了所以我們真的是希望一個禮拜以內你們這個事情一定要把它決定清楚市長可不可以幫忙我盡量朝委員的這個方向來做努力也跟委員報告原則上部長有承諾過就是說會比照去年該有的項目不會少所以原則上我們會這樣的方式來做"},{"start":770.555,"end":775.052,"text":"不要說項目不會少 我聽得懂啦該有的金額不會少好 拜託 謝謝盡量來努力 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請主席邀請陳次長請陳仁伯次長委員好次長早安今天委員會是針對陸海空交通運輸業因應近年排放轉型的改善措施那剛剛相關單位都有做了這個報告那我們也知道就是說有關運輸的部分就是我們交通部要主責就是"},{"start":31.983,"end":52.255,"text":"這個淨零排放的相關的一個政策那我們看到就是在2023年4月行政院有核定了這個12項的關鍵戰略行動計畫那關鍵戰略10就是淨零綠生活就是由交通部來主責那交通部就是預計要推動營造深度的減碳運輸計畫還有這個低碳交通區的規劃與示範交通場域設施節能減碳"},{"start":58.479,"end":84.687,"text":"還有基礎設施調試等這個重點的工作那我們也看到在114年度的總預算就是我們剛剛審完主要在運營所的部分他有編列了這個運輸研究業務營造深度減碳運輸環境暨打造低耗輪交通場域的計畫編列了4050萬這個是就是分年執行的一個計畫"},{"start":86.408,"end":112.005,"text":"交通部也編了六千萬元要用在獎補助費補助直轄市及各縣市政府建立低碳交通示範區這樣子的一個計畫那在這邊我想請教一下就是這個建立低碳交通示範區這個是一個很新的觀念那我不曉得我們交通部要怎麼去推動然後要做到什麼程度是不是可以請"},{"start":112.925,"end":137.005,"text":"市長先簡單講一下我有簡單說明以後再請運營所或供應司來做說明原則上低碳交通區的一個概念剛剛委員特別提到其實是整個在國際間有關淨零轉型上各國大概有幾個國家會採行的一個措施就希望在那個區域裡面的運具也好或是旅行的型態也好都能夠採用這個低碳"},{"start":138.926,"end":154.203,"text":"或者是近鄰的一個工具在這裡頭運作所以呢至於說要怎麼做這也才會有運輸研究所先要就這一個低碳交通區他會去做一個相關的研究研究完了以後他就訂定在今年訂定了相關一個補助的要點"},{"start":154.784,"end":176.162,"text":"然後在要點以後才會在今年的預算編列來補助各地方政府看怎麼樣來實施這個有關低碳交通區但是這個低碳交通區的一個未來的一個構想跟想像要如何執行其實還缺少了一個相關的一個指引所以目前我也是請這個運營所就這個指引來告訴大家如何來做"},{"start":176.522,"end":197.752,"text":"那原則上做的話會分三個區域一個當然是都會區的一個是有關這個應該是景區的景區的一個那有另外一個是有關外島低碳的這樣的一個低碳的交通區的這個概念所以原則上是朝這個三個方向來做以上"},{"start":198.148,"end":224.596,"text":"好 那請議員說明有關於那個低碳加裝區這個部分就是剛剛次長提到因為整個低碳的部分本來他是從整個淨零排放這個部分然後把整個高軟的一個這個印記能夠把它排除在外那希望能夠從一個小範圍慢慢地推廣讓整個空氣的這個玻璃能夠那個把它建置起來"},{"start":226.076,"end":246.525,"text":"我們推薦的進度有一些是在都會區 譬如說在西營西化區或是巴黎這些市區或是在風景區來做一些管制另外在新市鎮或是一些部分可以去做一些比較完整一點可以管制這些車輛的部分"},{"start":249.007,"end":267.045,"text":"來處理後續的話當然這個地方擁有區這個草案已經出來了那後續的話公務員司這邊我們整個部門就會來陸續來補助這個地方政府因為這是地方知識事項那由這個部門來逐漸來推進一些計畫"},{"start":269.022,"end":287.968,"text":"好 那我們知道就是也包括剛剛次長回答的 育年所就是要進行收集跟彙整國內外有關低碳交通區的類似的案例的實施內容然後要檢視我們低碳交通區相關的法規缺口還有掩體相關的法制可是剛剛也有提到說這個要點"},{"start":290.83,"end":307.98,"text":"你才剛提出嘛那據我所得到的訊息我不曉得現在有沒有更新的進度就是在去年就是113年8月10號運營所有將低碳交通區的補助作業要點函送交通部可是交通部核定了嗎市長回答一下"},{"start":310.083,"end":327.777,"text":"合訂了嗎?這個要點是經過交通部合訂就可以了,那剛才我有說明,正在這個部裡頭大概做一些旅遊,那另外一個我們希望這個要點以後能夠去說明給地方更詳細的一個指引,看怎麼樣來做,所以這個東西部裡頭應該還在檢討中,是"},{"start":331.007,"end":345.863,"text":"所以這個要點就是交通部核定就可以了那還沒確定那交通部核定了嗎跟我們補充報告一下第一個部分這個要點基本上交通部這個核定就可以不用送到對那核定就可以那核定那目前市裡面"},{"start":346.383,"end":361.73,"text":"正在這個就是說修正運營所送上來的一個這個草案那我這邊也特別跟委員報告就是說這個地攤交通區的部分的話大概就是說在目前有一些電動化跟地攤的話還有燃油這些運具的使用這個過程當中"},{"start":362.99,"end":388.998,"text":"那希望說建立一些這個地攤化跟這個電動化的一個這個環境那我們期待說這些相關的這個環境的建立不要以管制為首要應該裡面還有一些相關配套就是說讓大家很自然去這個熟悉使用這樣子的部分所以這些相關補助要點的部分的話我們細節是裡面還在檢討那另外一個部分的話剛剛委員有提到說相關地方政府的部分其實大概整個這個運營所在過程當中"},{"start":389.978,"end":405.805,"text":"有跟地方政府做討論那其實也有很多這個地方政府有表達這樣子的意願那這些相關未來因為確實六千萬的金額不多啦那在這個補助要點裡面就必須要有一個這個遴選的一個程序這個部分我們就要比較特別周圍去做一個考量"},{"start":406.605,"end":424.275,"text":"是好那就是剛剛你們的回覆就是可以看得出來目前是要點交通部也還沒有核定那你們就已經先框了這個預算那我不曉得說這樣接下來你們的這個執行到底能不能順利那我剛剛有請教次長說"},{"start":425.336,"end":448.002,"text":"我們這個低碳交通區要進行到什麼樣的程度是參照歐盟的方式嗎因為我們來看一下就是有關歐盟的他們的一個實施的一個方式事實上有關歐盟他們實施這個低碳交通區他們也是經過了很多年的討論、試行還有試應之後才去實施的"},{"start":448.382,"end":463.702,"text":"那我們是這個觀念我想一般民眾可能都還完全不知道那我們現在就要來補助那補助意思就是要去落實的嘛那我不曉得說在今年有哪一個縣市會來做那因為我們的國情啊民情還有我們"},{"start":464.202,"end":468.068,"text":"的地理環境地狹人仇我不曉得說我們來實施這個會不會遇到阻礙啦其實以我的看法我覺得應該會會有很大的阻礙啦因為你看這個以德國歐洲來看德國他們"},{"start":480.086,"end":506.01,"text":"的這個低碳交通區他是將車牌那個排放量是分為三種然後有用三個顏色去區分然後經過幾十年的過渡期檢討然後他在2021年的時候他們就說貼紅色貼紙的車輛就禁止進入低排放區然後貼綠色貼紙的車輛才可以駛入低排放區否則就是會有罰則罰款那我不曉得我們"},{"start":509.091,"end":533.23,"text":"是朝這個方向嗎 我們有可能做到這樣子的一個階段嗎我想跟委員做說明 剛才講這個示範區而且它是在2050的淨零排放的路徑藍圖裡面所以不會是在今年一開始要實施的時候就採取這麼嚴格的管制的作為所以你們補助的話 補助獎勵要怎樣做到什麼程度而且剛才我又特別提到"},{"start":533.59,"end":548.267,"text":"他會有幾個區域在做比如說都市型的或者是景點跟離島的或者是工業區等等的所以他會選擇一個比較適宜的地方採取用鼓勵的方式先行的方式來做處理是"},{"start":548.767,"end":566.387,"text":"我想當然就是說淨零碳排2050是一個國際的一個趨勢每一個部會都有自己要努力的一個目標那會有要擬定的一個政策那我們希望就是說這樣子的一個政策在推動的過程真的要"},{"start":567.428,"end":584.116,"text":"就是要去考量到我們的民情然後也要加強去宣導因為不能驟然實施不然可能就是會造成很大的不適應就是會引起很大的反彈跟這個民怨好 謝謝委員的指導 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158764","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158764","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb586a8fe535368f5462a56fd3a12bc29fbbeefebb33f5927238672f50a45871b9275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:32:05 - 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請郭部長"},{"start":19.281,"end":45.656,"text":"部長辛苦了 部長委員好我先請教因為大南方新矽谷這個計畫對南方當然相當重要那AMD要在南部設研發中心那我想問一下的是除了台南以外高雄的AMD的部分也有要設研發中心那目前的進度到哪邊了這高雄的AMD應該是跟中山大學的合作對那在今年的第二季要啟用是這樣嗎它因為"},{"start":48.817,"end":63.642,"text":"沒關係直接說可以來您說是雅灣的這個在雅灣的啟動對在雅灣區嘛AMD在雅灣要設置高雄的研發中心那在今年的第二季來預定來啟動嗎是這個訊息是正確的是也是經濟部協助來輔導來推動是的好那"},{"start":70.524,"end":80.877,"text":"目前的部分照這樣訊息看來有包括像西光子包括高速的封裝設計研發人員那預定會有三四十個人進駐是這樣嗎"},{"start":82.976,"end":103.602,"text":"是的是齁好那當然也是跟中山大學還有包括日月光包括遠程半導體等合作啦齁也希望那我們希望這樣的速度能夠持續來推動啦齁那也能夠順利的讓台南高雄這兩個大南方的計畫能夠順利來推動是謝謝委員好謝謝部長那再來我也請教一下輝達NVIDIA的在"},{"start":105.263,"end":112.188,"text":"秘虎當然設了第一座研發中心那第二座的包括它的總部跟研發中心有沒有機會在高雄來設立"},{"start":117.895,"end":135.789,"text":"剛剛這個輝達的執行長Jason在美國他有公告說他在今年的六月來台灣的時候會在我們的電腦展公布落腳台灣的地點跟在怎麼做但是他們實際一直都還在我們國內在調查"},{"start":138.786,"end":166.445,"text":"那他主要的考量地點 考量的狀況會是什麼呢他主要考慮的考量狀況他的總部啦 就是第二總部對 應該是說他的總部加研發中心啦 對不對對 研發的部分他是跟這個鴻海在做這個智慧城市對然後那個台北灣因為是落在高雄對 台北灣在高雄嘛所以這個一部分的研發會共同在那個地方所以研發的部分還會繼續在高雄嘛包括第一"},{"start":167.878,"end":183.973,"text":"因為他的研究的項目太多了所以他可能會分散這個部分可能要NVIDIA他們自己這屬於他的商業機密那我問一下部長啊那高雄有沒有機會爭取到這個總部跟研發中心在高雄落腳"},{"start":187.154,"end":214.646,"text":"這個我想這個對輝達來講他選項就是我以前經常在講的花落盛開蝴蝶自來那我問一下 環境夠那他應該就會來部長那我問你你的說切出生的啦你那個高雄的環境具不具備了如果是我個人因為我出生屏東高雄離我最近對所以高雄你認為很有機會啦"},{"start":216.158,"end":226.466,"text":"如果是我如果是你 所以從企業家的角度來看是有嘛那我們希望大力的來促成部長如果有機會的話 大力的來促成高雄不管是各種條件別忘了他是台南人"},{"start":228.294,"end":257.004,"text":"所以有機會台南高雄對不對那我們希望多整體來促成我們在看因為以我們現在大南方這個這樣的一個環境任何一個投資者應該會選項在這個高雄或者台南這個是就條件來講的話但是其他的其他的地區包括桃園新竹或者台北新北這些都已經成熟的環境"},{"start":258.211,"end":277.156,"text":"所以他很重要是他的人才的取得人才的能夠招聘的部分是不是他的角色關鍵我想他會選擇這個研發總部第一個頂尖大學所在地第二個人才能夠順利招聘那"},{"start":278.613,"end":307.48,"text":"對他來講其實全台灣都適合他為什麼因為他所做的他要做的這個硬體都在台灣的西部啊所以我可以很正確的講就是台灣的西部一定是他選擇落腳的地方博不郎因為清大、交大包括中山包括半島理學院等等也都在推動了包括這些的市場辦包括台北萬也在高雄我認為其實高雄應該是有相當大的一個機會那當然希望部長"},{"start":308.2,"end":327.256,"text":"就與公於私都有機會幫忙讓座落在南台灣不管是高雄或台南我認為對於整個台灣的整體均衡發展都是相當有助益的回答因為對我們台灣來講非常非常的重要所以我們第一個原則就是請他務必在台灣能夠建立他第二個營運總號"},{"start":328.537,"end":348.809,"text":"我們全力來協助我想水電都充分供應包括廠房甚至包括所有需要的人才我想經濟部全力來協助經濟部一定全力協助輝達在台灣任何一個地方他只要選擇做為營運總部我們一定全力配合另外輝達的第二算力中心的部分有機會落在高雄嗎"},{"start":352.242,"end":379.098,"text":"機率比較高因為第一個台北灣已經有一個嘛那在第二座的話高雄的機率很大而且這個耗電量大嘛高雄電力是充裕的不過這個變數還是有啦變數還是有這個他跟國科會的這個國科會這一邊的這個配合應該也會蠻多的啦所以就經濟部的角度來講我只要給他水給他電給他人才"},{"start":379.818,"end":398.417,"text":"所以這個是沒有問題部長希望高雄雅灣花若盛開希望紅海蝴蝶自來好不好是的再來我請教一下部長大林埔前村上次謝謝部長也親自趕到大林埔去鄉親很有感部長親自前往其實很有感那我想要問的現在是進入到了環評跟都市計畫作業的階段"},{"start":399.798,"end":426.009,"text":"部長能不能同步啟動 上次其實鄉親們很急啦 已經從林全院長去已經經過9年了 那蘇院長合併也經過5年了能不能盡快的有一些的登記 或者有一些的這個啟動相關的程序我想這因為我回來以後有跟這個院長報告我們那天到大林埔然後鄉親大家所表達的意見那麼我們現在會快速的啟動一些這個讓"},{"start":428.39,"end":448.621,"text":"鄉親可以希望的這個模式來進行那內政部的部分我們也跟內政部溝通了是不是內政部也同意把他這些業務移交到部長能不能今年啟動至少在區塊的選擇讓鄉親們選因為你環評走一走有可能一兩年包括你的那個在後面"},{"start":449.601,"end":462.547,"text":"對 那我一定說能不能登記這件事情讓鄉親們早點來做選擇跟登記但登記完你還是有可能會做一些變動但至少你讓鄉親們已經等了這麼多年開始做一些選擇跟登記不要讓他們再等了我們會跟這個委員所指導的這個方向"},{"start":467.529,"end":494.983,"text":"我們來加速進行努力在上半年讓大家登記登記完當然不是最後的定案啦但是登記完你才能知道到底多少人需要土地多少人需要哪種現金多少人需要房子那你才能夠規劃你整體到底的狀況也許想像中的跟實際上有落差那你登記完了之後當然還是有部分鄉親會變動但是你經過登記之後你才能全盤了解你整體的一個狀況我認為這個有而且也會讓鄉親更安心說確實已經動起來了不是還停留在這個規劃的階段了"},{"start":496.124,"end":513.679,"text":"是 我們朝這個模式轉移那另外剛剛有提到 部長有提到就是說這個相關的一些跟社會住宅的部分我希望跟內政部加速溝通啦如果可以 內政部願意當然更好如果不行 可能請經濟部又自辦啦 好嗎是"},{"start":515.02,"end":537.388,"text":"這個也要盡快來定案因為這個已經都有對外有說明出去這要盡快定案那最後一個是對於市居者在當地的我還是希望部長給予更多的支持啦真正住在那邊長期住在那邊的他們長年以來對忍受空屋忍受一些空安的一些風險那我認為其實真正住在那邊的人給他多一點照顧其實並不過分我希望部長在這一塊再從優從寬來做處理"},{"start":539.329,"end":560.606,"text":"是的 報告委員這是我們感同身受啦所以我們會全力以赴我也相信未來如果遷春之後那邊的價值會遠遠多於現在政府所付出的價值而且我相信它有機會創造人民跟政府跟整個產業多贏的一個局面啦那我希望在部長的任內有機會我們把這件事情做一個好的處理是 我們一起努力好 謝謝部長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158780","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158780","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb58ef1cecd1a1713e899b82b4e80112db25e734c898429ef19ac918614e2a6c40d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"12:29:16 - 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我今天要問的題目是我們台灣的公車要全面電動化這件事情交通部有沒有認真在推動好 我們先看這一張今天你們交的報告陳市長 國發會說到去年的11月台灣電動車的普及率31.5 對嗎"},{"start":31.288,"end":42.699,"text":"他這31.5就是剛才我們在很多都特別提到的就是包含這個在營運中的跟核定的台灣的大客車有幾輛啊"},{"start":44.514,"end":45.995,"text":"市區的電動公車是有11700輛來 部長你看你們的報告你們報告說要汰換電動大客車14500輛"},{"start":67.591,"end":78.798,"text":"你們定義的是14500輛嘛 對不對那到去年的年底你們說你們已經領牌的是1926嘛1926除以14500輛是13.28好 我想跟你計較這些數字就是說國華會的數字啊應該也是交通部給的"},{"start":91.993,"end":103.797,"text":"稍微再跟委員說明一下那個原則上會多出來那個4000多部吧那個是公路客運的部分啦我們是在對啦我知道啦但是國化會把電動大客車它就這樣寫嘛但是我們一般對大客車的定義不是這樣嘛因為對"},{"start":112.02,"end":137.566,"text":"因為大客車 遊覽車也是大客車所以這些文字精準一點 好不好因為國外會看到的數字也是你們給的 好不好那我們看下一張原來設定50%要電動化是指市區公車嗎那公路客運是交通部公路局管的要做嗎"},{"start":138.905,"end":161.296,"text":"那為什麼公路客運都不來申請電動車跟我們報告目前大概重點先擺在這個市區公車的部分沒有重點嘛市區公車是市政府管的嘛六都市政府管的嘛對不對那公路客運是公路局管的嘛那為什麼公路客運的業者不申請"},{"start":162.934,"end":185.189,"text":"電動公車跟我們報告並不是說客運業者不申請最主要就是說目前適合公路客運跟國道客運的電動的車的車型目前還在開發中應該這個今年第一季會有這個經過審議合格的這個車型出來因為在性能上面的要求會有不一樣"},{"start":186.748,"end":203.193,"text":"那遊覽車呢遊覽車更是一個高性能的部分所以現在沒有遊覽車的電動車現行在科學園區大概有將近50輛這個電動遊覽但是他是用地地板另外就是專門跑這個"},{"start":205.294,"end":218.545,"text":"市區公車六都剛剛蔡奇昌副院長有提到那個數量沒有機會讓你們解釋你們知道為什麼會有些都沒有嗎為什麼有一些很低為什麼有一些很高嗎"},{"start":223.294,"end":243.315,"text":"你不要笑啊 你知道答案你就講啊好 這個部分我大概跟委員報告一下因為就是說確實電動公車的一個這個推產各縣市都這個不太一樣啊那但是這個就是關鍵是什麼關鍵在於就是說確實像有一些這個縣市它起步可能推的比較不是啦"},{"start":244.844,"end":263.511,"text":"就是車公里成本不一樣嗎?編的補貼不一樣嗎?現在全台灣對電動公車車公里成本給最高的是誰?我印象中應該是台中或者是台南吧台南啦台南給蠻高的56.34啦第二名第二名是桃園啦"},{"start":269.81,"end":280.577,"text":"桃園52.7再加購車補助桃園喔桃園給最高的車公里喔然後呢又給購車補助喔結果他是六都最後一名為什麼"},{"start":290.65,"end":314.128,"text":"當時有關那個車子應該是想說一開始的時候我們大概只有幾行所以很多的客運業者大概在觀望其他的車型我跟你講關鍵就是地方政府的這些加碼補助跟對車工裡的計算不一樣就會導致各城市的客運業者願不願意把柴油公車連線到的時候換成電動公車"},{"start":316.209,"end":337.483,"text":"所以你們要去盤點這六都他們對這個車公里成本的計算到底哪裡不一樣 因為你們只做這個購車補助嘛 對不對好 那剛剛我再請問一下 那購車補助車子買來了要充電的那個場地啊 各縣市政府跟客運業者有沒有遇到困難"},{"start":338.956,"end":341.62,"text":"放月子有沒有想要因為他們的車都要休息嘛他們都要充電嘛那充電的地方有沒有遇到抗爭遇到人家不讓他設那這個都丟給縣市政府還是公路局會介入來協助"},{"start":354.599,"end":358.123,"text":"所以當時就是要求地方政府在提計劃書的時候就對於這個要就是說協助這個客人業者來找這個設停車場跟充電場這個部分要有整體的規劃所以這是縣市政府負責"},{"start":373.12,"end":402.395,"text":"對然後另外一個部分有場地之後要設充電樁這些供電用電的等等部分的話公務局在公務局這邊跟台電有一個平台他們每個會開會那只要就是說客運業者有申請要設這個充電樁的一個場站在台電各分區都列為專案計畫在做這個列管都是優先來做一個協助我們現在對推動電動的市區公車的進度實在是非常的緩慢"},{"start":403.595,"end":421.385,"text":"你們應該也會認為很緩慢所以這個部分我知道你們補助不會無窮無盡最新一期的補助那個付款的條件是越來越差所以對這些客運業者來說他們願意再加碼繼續買的那個意願會越來越低那可是你們離目標離國安會幫你們訂的環境部幫你們訂的行政院幫你們訂的那個數字會越來越遠"},{"start":432.113,"end":435.615,"text":"會越來越遠 因為最早期馬來西亞電動公車也都到齊了那很多是中國車 對不對很多是大量的中國車 那些也都到齊了所以接下來呢 你們怎麼在 你們的經費有限補助會越來越少然後呢 給客運業者的補助的時程 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這個最近我的辦公室有收到民眾的陳情可能跟經濟部還有電力公司比較有關係就是說有女生就是家庭主婦會來跟辦公室反映說老公他老公最近常常晚上九點多十點多跑出門然後該怎麼辦你知道是什麼原因嗎兩位"},{"start":58.294,"end":64.197,"text":"老公晚上九點多十點多出門然後過了一陣子可能過了一個小時兩個小時才回來電力公司是不是啊不知道好跟今天的主題有關係啦就是這個電動車啦我們現在進行的部分就是電動車那電動車我們台電是不是有針對電動車的電表有專門的時間電價"},{"start":86.65,"end":90.574,"text":"報告是是那你知道尖離峰的大概電價大概是多少跟多少嗎因為我不是這方面的主管離峰大概是3塊4塊啦尖峰是多少"},{"start":104.093,"end":122.99,"text":"12塊大概12塊所以說我們有很多的電動車主因為我們的電譬如說我們去第三方快充的時候那廠商他一定也是推時間電價嘛他也是尖峰的時候可能又收比較貴的錢他不可能虧本嘛那離峰的時候他就推很便宜的價格所以說我們現在很多電動車的車主很困擾就是說"},{"start":124.992,"end":146.12,"text":"我們因為廠商就是這樣子定價所以我們常常就是必須在冬季九點過後夏季是十點過後那才能夠用比較便宜的價格去充電我們中油過去可能這個油價調漲的時候隔天要漲個兩角三角就大排長龍了你知道消費者的這個心情就是這樣子"},{"start":147.28,"end":168.408,"text":"對多數的這個電動車主來講的話我充了一次電我可能就省了兩三百塊我當然晚一點出門啊你去充就好為什麼要在尖峰時刻充這也符合我們台電的精神但是對於我們國家要推動電動車來說它其實是一個健康的一種電價因為我們要去開電車要去補充能源的時候"},{"start":170.369,"end":193.043,"text":"我們當然是希望越便利越好我們不希望要在這種很離縫的時段去衝那這個都是我們的電動車組會去考量的我可以請後續請我們的經濟部然後邀請我們的可能交通部或者是電力公司兩個單位的立場會不一樣電力公司當然是因為有這個用電接木的問題但是交通部的立場應該是推動電動車那當然兩個中間就會有一個這個"},{"start":197.8,"end":208.107,"text":"這個目標不一樣的時候那就可能有一個政策性不一樣的部分可不可以請台電公司去檢討一下電動車電表這樣子的一個這麼過大價差的一個合理性可不可以"},{"start":211.412,"end":227.928,"text":"是謝謝委員我們回去他會檢討但是目前看起來就是為了解決這個尖峰的尖離峰的一些問題尖離峰我會吐槽你啊尖峰就是缺電嘛你們一說沒缺電那沒缺電又在尖離峰什麼好不好一個月好不好你們檢討一下那個我能不能"},{"start":229.069,"end":254.2,"text":"講一下這個其實在國外大概充電的方式大概都是類似這樣子為什麼因為就是說其實現在的充電的系統它基本上會去偵測說你那個電池因為它電池漏的時候它有一個模式所以基本上像有些就是因為現在其實就是因為我們慢充的系統比較少所以大家都集中去快充"},{"start":255.06,"end":278.844,"text":"那慢充的系統它其實有些功能是它會去偵測那個電池的模式然後比如說離風的時候它就會盡量去把它充飽然後尖峰的時候它就會避開那大家也不會集中在過渡在某一個地方去充電那對大家來說 反正家用家用當然可以這樣子設定啦但是當家裡沒有充電樁的時候你就只能去外面嘛那就是價格的問題啦好不好 那一個月內提前可不可以"},{"start":284.3,"end":306.378,"text":"因為我們現在在討論到淨零碳私人載具轉型的問題過程中當然現在第三方包括特斯拉以及很多第三方的超充業者現在都雨後春筍的在擴張嘛對不對但是我們目前好像並沒有針對快充站有一個很明確的一個規定就像是我們停車場法有很明確的停車場路外停車場的設置的規範所以說"},{"start":308.44,"end":316.657,"text":"現在因為都市的地方 地不好找所以說廠商就會有一些亂象產生就像我這頭影片顯示的"},{"start":318.271,"end":341.777,"text":"左邊那張可能沒有看到人行道右邊這一張你很明顯的看到最右邊的那台車它車殼比較大了越往左邊越來越小到第二台車的時候其實車子要停到最後面的時候它的車頭就已經到我們的人行道了如果說在更左邊的這一格它的車一定就是會站到我們人行道影響到我們行人通行的空間那針對這樣子的一個問題我們目前經濟部我們確定快充"},{"start":342.999,"end":359.728,"text":"業者的主管機關會是是不是經濟部以及他有沒有適用的一個法規去給他做一些相關的限制跟委員報告一下那個經濟部管的部分就是說那個快充站他有一些用電設備他必須要符合用戶用電設備裝置規則"},{"start":361.38,"end":377.935,"text":"那至於說那個地方因為現在的位置大部分都是停車空間去設的啦對那所以這個規範可能還是因為道路安全部分可能還是交通部這個可能要請教交通部的部分好沒關係那電力安全部分我們經營部會處理好下一張沒關係下一張你剛剛講的就是這個"},{"start":379.036,"end":395.009,"text":"目前充電有兩個管道就是一般來說會設置在兩個地方一個是合法的停車場那合法的停車場裡面自然就有停車場法去規範這部分就沒有問題了另外一個就是非合法的停車場還是可以設充電樁難道不行嗎?可不可以?沒有在停車場內可以設快充設備嗎?有沒有一個單位會說不行?"},{"start":404.408,"end":415.762,"text":"我跟委員報告這個合法停車因為這個現在來講合法非法這個本來就是依照停車場法我不是說非法我是說不是在合法的停車場內我不是說它是非法停車場"},{"start":418.967,"end":442.888,"text":"這兩個不一樣就是停車場裡頭當然充電樁的設置我們因為有停車場法的相關規定我們只是去規範它一定的比例所以它的空間什麼的都符合我們的規範它不會影響到包括出入口等等不會影響到交通裡面的車格規範有一定的長寬的配置它要去設置的時候但是當它這一站不是設在我們合法的停車場裡面的時候"},{"start":444.709,"end":464.138,"text":"就沒有任何一個法可以管到他啦就像我剛剛講的他設了之後他的車子會停到人行道上啊我包括左邊這一張他其實是人行道我包括進去我一定就會在人行道上面行車嘛我跟委員報告這分很多地方啊充電樁的設置你看像在公寓大廈裡頭也會有那你這裡在講到說譬如說在這一個空地裡頭要去設置當然設置的時候他就有相關的一個規範那規範是什麼"},{"start":471.842,"end":478.38,"text":"譬如說你剛才講的用地的是不是用地可以在那個用地上來設對啊 那目前有沒有任何的規定可以規範"},{"start":480.116,"end":502.709,"text":"這個可能要經濟部有沒有經濟部來做相關的規範我還是跟委員報告一下就是說現在我們用電的部分因為我們你們只管電嘛對不對那因為車子要停上去要充電他一定有經過車子可以走的地方這個就可能不是經濟部可以對所以現在就是沒人管得到嘛我們交通部只管得到合法停車場對不對經濟部只管電力"},{"start":506.912,"end":533.993,"text":"對就是跟設加油站什麼我跟委員稍微說明一下有關充電樁的主管機關這個在行政院已經綠定好相關的主管機關不是在交通部不是嘛我也認為是經濟部啊所以但是經濟部剛剛講他們只管電力嘛他們不管場域嘛這或許他們來的不是真正主管因為他每一個東西設電的時候他有相關的規範他還是要去會同去看我告訴市長就是沒有今天我才在這邊質詢啊"},{"start":535.254,"end":562.314,"text":"就是沒有不然特斯拉這種國際的企業有可能不遵守我們國家的規範在那邊亂設一通嗎所以我剛才就講因為這個也是一個長期以來我們整個行政院在推動我們基建我們鼓勵要多設充電樁但是我們一定也要確保我們設置快充站我們要有一個明確的一個設置的辦法就類似停車場法它不一定要像停車場法一樣但是必須要參考那這部分後續是不是可以請經濟部"},{"start":564.356,"end":575.166,"text":"針對快充站這樣子的一個行業他所要使用的場域去做一個比如說他的車格的限制啊規範等等的你要交通部組織還是經濟部"},{"start":579.146,"end":597.583,"text":"沒有錯我們分工的部分這個行政院現在是指定由經濟部負責但是因為充電樁的佈置的部分這個還是交通部主責所以這個部分最主要還是車子要實際可以開進去的那個不是我們經濟部主責問題是現在那邊一片空地交通部怎麼管得到那片空地"},{"start":600.353,"end":618.622,"text":"我報告一下其實委員所指的部分就是說因應這個電動化未來會有商業營業用的充電站區這樣子的設置這個充電站區的設置基本上就跟以前的加油站的設置或是未來因應清冷會有加清站的設置其實都是相同的一個道理"},{"start":618.942,"end":645.884,"text":"那這個站區的一個這個設置的部分當然如果靠入口一定會考慮到出入口就是現在我們進出加油站這個這個加油現在加油站是用導視的部分那我未來要像這種充電站的話可能就是這個車輛用排列的這個方式那這個部分的話我想經濟部留言組這邊可以待會去看是不是說針對充電站區的設置需不需要一個專責的這個規定他們可以來做一個這個考量"},{"start":646.204,"end":672.06,"text":"或許今天來的沒有辦法決定啦副組長可能沒辦法代替經濟部來決定但是就後續請交通部跟經濟部回去這個東西要解決一下我們要廣設基礎設施但是我們要確保這些基礎設施它是至少它不要影響到像剛剛講的我們人行道人行的通行的問題包括以後設置的場域你的土地管制或是說你如果說已經是在建築法管制到的一些空地等等的"},{"start":672.56,"end":689.777,"text":"他哪些地方可以設哪些地方不能設設的情況要有哪些車格的限制等等的我都希望經濟部未來有一個明確的規範不要說我們一面在推廣的時候但是卻又影響到其他的外部消費市要由我們全民行人來做承擔了好不好以上再麻煩我們的市長跟我們經濟部的長官謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158778","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158778","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb588619ee059f3771939b82b4e80112db25e734c898429ef19a76d6fe535e5dfa9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"12:05:10 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但是棲藍費的部分目前我們估算起來原則上還不實質影響所以原則上還是會維持一個階段的這個免徵"},{"start":423.874,"end":444.3,"text":"免徵嗎好謝謝好再接下來那下一張下一張那這題討論完了那就要問一下這一樣我想在路上跑的機車類似機車東西很多種我提到電動代步車電動輪椅電動輔助自行車微型電動二輪車跟電動滑板車跟電動平衡車好這幾種我想問一下次長跟市長你們知道哪一些可以上人行道哪一些可以在車道哪一些在自行車道嗎"},{"start":447.133,"end":456.48,"text":"這裡面的部分的話大概基本上都是屬於有三類啦這個像這個電動輔助自行車跟微型電動二輪車是屬於這個自行車的慢車"},{"start":462.205,"end":484.291,"text":"那這個電動滑板車跟電動平衡車這個是也是屬於慢車但是屬於這個智力就是個人行動的一個這個器具沒關係市長因為時間時間不夠我覺得可以看下一屆給大家解答這是我們辦公室爬梳了各項法令之後得出的結論我看一下答案應該是對的啦如果錯有錯你要糾正我們"},{"start":485.411,"end":511.236,"text":"電動代步車 電動輪椅 電動輔助自行車只能這三個可以在人行道上面那能夠上車 只能夠上自行車道的只有這個電動輔助自行車跟微型電動二輪車都可以在自行車道那進行進行混合車道的是輔助自行車跟微型電動二輪車那很多人在使用的電動滑板車跟電動平衡車這個是連人行道依法它是連人行道都不能去的但是我們路上還是常常看到所以我要問的是說這些"},{"start":512.576,"end":535.435,"text":"電動的類型 我們當然希望大家不要去騎油車嘛希望能換個交通方式那這一些 這六種市面上常見的載具那到底你的交通法規哪些能夠上路 哪些不能夠上路那這同時也配合經濟部嘛它既然能夠生產 能夠合法的販售那到底哪些能夠合法的上路我想一般民眾也是搞不清楚啊"},{"start":536.135,"end":544.851,"text":"所以要問一下這個道理交通部對這個事情的看法你要怎麼樣整合還是說一樣區分這麼多細節有的可以上人行道有的上自行車道有的可以上車道"},{"start":546.207,"end":575.787,"text":"這部分我跟委員報告一下這幾類的部分車種分類非常明確那我簡單講就是說電動代步車或輪椅的這個部分的話這個是屬於行人輔具的部分他是跟行人結合在一起基本上就是說是這個可以走在這一個人行道有人行道就走這個右線這個人行道沒有人行道像一般行人的話就要靠這個路邊那另外一個部分就是說電動輔助自行車跟微型電動二輪車的這個這個部分的話一般原則上是"},{"start":576.227,"end":597.973,"text":"走混合車道那如果說這個自行車道地方政府有特別允許他跟這個腳踏自行車這個這個並用的話那以上就看這個主管機關的一個這一個開放或者是這一個管制那有關於電動滑板車跟電動平行車的部分現行處罰條例已經有開放但是因為這個牽涉到每個地方"},{"start":598.393,"end":614.672,"text":"他的這個人行道空間或者是車道空間所以必須要由地方政府他去檢討他有訂一些相關規格跟使用規範之後那就可以按照地方政府市長 我要跟市長講為什麼今天特別提出來就是因為剛剛市長也不太會講這變成又回到地方政府了"},{"start":615.112,"end":637.941,"text":"但是這個販售是全國性都在販售所以到底我哪些車在某些地方好像可以上人行道我換一個城市之後反而不能使用在某個城市會被開罰每個城市不會被開罰所以我是希望說交通部在這種各種這個債據上面能夠有比較一致化的標準不要說就像你剛剛提到有的地方自行車車道可以開放有的地方人行道可以開放"},{"start":638.621,"end":662.219,"text":"那沒有人行道的地方怎麼辦呢沒有人行道的地方社會開發嗎因為實務上我國人行道就是建制不完整嘛所以在很多地方的話他在這個城市他可以使用可能滑板車他在人行道上誰使用那他到別的地方去因為這個巷子裡面沒有滑板車啊那如果被檢舉了算誰的所以這部分我今天提出來希望說你們好好的去統整一下我們各項的這種個人債巨這種雙兩輪的這種債巨他這種電動輔具這種電動債巨他到底的適用的法定標準"},{"start":668.547,"end":690.052,"text":"把它明確一點那也要考量到現實你不能說就提到不能全部都有地方政府嘛因為我們講不同城市不同城市的狀況可以嗎市長我想委員剛才還是一樣啦尤其是行人府區這個還是比較有地方性啦但是委員剛才特別提到如何讓地方能夠在設置上它也能夠有一些規範或遵循"},{"start":690.572,"end":707.92,"text":"所以我剛才有跟市長講了我們大概會去朝你一個類似像使用指引來供地方政府來設置這樣的一個或規範這些這個器具或載具如何使用的一個規範那後續蘇樂報告再給我們我們再瞭解一下好不好好 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鐵的這個排碳成本是最高我們大概要付1.2億多那麼高鐵是第二個要將近8390萬的這個金額那所以本市要請教次長"},{"start":84.273,"end":112.432,"text":"在我們運輸業呢雖然他沒有列入在首波的這個碳費徵收的名單當中但是他會受到電力因為電力有納進來電力業的一個徵收碳費所增加的營運成本那所以現在又要快春節了大家很緊張又通膨所以在這樣的情況之下勢必會增加成本所以本席要請教在這樣的一個情況之下我們是不是會調漲"},{"start":114.213,"end":141.591,"text":"台鐵跟高鐵的這個票價請做說明我跟委員報告目前並沒有調整台鐵跟高鐵的一個票價目前好我非常的歡喜聽到你聽到民意的聲音剛剛特別也講因為通盆的原因所以這個部分呢在現階段是不宜但是我還是要提醒因為我們已經走到跟世界接軌所以這個議題你也務請"},{"start":144.793,"end":166.766,"text":"第一名的我們的台鐵未來要怎麼去因應跟高鐵怎麼因應方案要去研擬我是不是可以跟委員簡單做說明一下有關台鐵或高鐵因為它是一個算是在經濟部來看它是屬於用電大概800千瓦以上的所謂的用電大戶"},{"start":167.466,"end":181.381,"text":"所以他大概要做一些深度節能的一個計畫雖然交通業沒有列入在第一波但是電力業就已經列入在第一波"},{"start":183.683,"end":207.367,"text":"那我再跟委員做說明一下那也是一樣有關這個環境部在做剛才講碳費的一個徵收是海鐵高鐵並沒有納入沒有錯但是呢他們是有需有要求類似像這個排碳量2.5噸以上的要做一些盤查所以要儘速去盤查那從碳盤查以後如何再去做碳減量"},{"start":212.248,"end":228.108,"text":"這非常重要因為它是一個循環而且是相關雖然沒有列入交通業者沒有列入第一波但是第一波的向下電力已經有了所以你必須要謹慎已知好 接下來本校請教海業的部分"},{"start":228.789,"end":247.481,"text":"海業的部分每排放的溫室氣體超過10億噸那麼全球的總排量是3%日本海事協會他們就出估在2030年替代燃料生產成本將高於傳統燃料的部分是1.5倍到4倍"},{"start":248.101,"end":275.379,"text":"尤其在電子甲烷跟電子甲醇的部分呢是在生產成本最貴的這個燃料所以會大量的投資使我們的船舶達到脫碳目標這個是世界的標準而且世界的走向而且是必要做的所以在這樣情況之下我們可以看出全球海運對於淨零排放的這個浪潮呢我們沒有辦法置身事外了"},{"start":275.979,"end":299.733,"text":"所以從2024年開始歐盟的ETS將歐盟已經將我們的行業這個來納入所以在這種情況之下台灣在海運方面我們碰到了非常緊張的事情第一個 人才短缺 第一個第二個 人才流失所以本席要請教江東普"},{"start":301.334,"end":308.261,"text":"你要怎麼樣去協助培養人才 留住人才讓海運的近鄰轉型他能夠很順暢的跟國際接軌請做說明"},{"start":312.049,"end":334.677,"text":"我簡單說明再請葉局長有關節能減碳的人才培育我的瞭解航港局大概有相關的訓練計畫至於說因應國際的潮流對於使用不管是甲醇也好或LNG的船舶也好我們都有相關的規劃我們的航商也有相關的因應"},{"start":336.057,"end":358.612,"text":"你們有相關的因應 相關的規劃 但是業者還是很緊張所以我希望要能夠接軌 你將書面資料給本席你們怎麼樣的方案去培養人才 去留住人才 怎麼樣協助我想這個是我們國家非常重要的生產力的關鍵決勝者這個非常重要 這個海運那最後一個議題 本席請教次長"},{"start":359.412,"end":366.653,"text":"未來高鐵要經過高雄站延伸到屏東在12月28 新屋稿正式公布 對不對"},{"start":368.004,"end":389.46,"text":"是不是這個大家滿心的歡喜因為我們也希望高鐵都能夠更加的暢通所以因此在我們台中在11月15號你們交通部鐵道局給本席我們要求去可行性評估我們台中站是不是要增加一站"},{"start":390.06,"end":405.799,"text":"因為我們現在台中整個烏日高鐵站下來整個塞車塞得非常的嚴重尤其要上74線到要轉國三的這個部分上下班時間半個鐘頭算是正常的但是它不應當如此"},{"start":406.4,"end":436,"text":"所以是不是應該在台中要來設一個多設一站來紓解相關因為現在我們台中的人口已經超過286萬人而且急劇的在增加交通樞紐都塞得這麼嚴重的情況之下交通部必須鐵道局你必須要去做可行性的評估台中站我強烈要求台中站鐵路這個高鐵必須要增加一站請做說明"},{"start":440.303,"end":462.401,"text":"報委員這個有一些系統技術上的問題要做確認我想我們另外再跟委員辦公室這邊來做詳細的說好你現在這麼說本席要告訴你台中市是全台第二大城市而且我們急劇在增加蓬勃發展所以務必要拜託你們去做可行性評估好不好"},{"start":463.912,"end":486.332,"text":"這非常重要你們去評估可行性評估既然高雄到屏東都可以這麼做我們台中更需要做加一站做可行性評估好不好要請你趕快做可行性評估方案我們再來討論朝這個方向來努力台中站高鐵站再加一站的可行性評估"},{"start":486.772,"end":514.086,"text":"我們先把可行性評估做出來好 你們預估大概多久時間會做出來呢這個可能要沒關係多久時間你給我一個時間就好是這個應該要花一點時間我們會確認再跟我們半年還是多久沒關係你告訴我還是一年可行性評估至少一年以上好那我們原則上定一年可行性評估出來台中站高鐵再加一站可行性評估給我們一個方向好嗎謝謝謝謝謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"158771","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158771","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb581e7016fd1b0f9d49a56fd3a12bc29fbbeefebb33f5927238d6197b49c015b13e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:50:57 - 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董事長在今天的這個經營概括跟營業預算報告裡面您提到說台糖會配合所謂的政府的這個社福的政策來提供相關的土地嘛那在過去這些年裡面不管是針對這個長照式的住宿式長照機構也好"},{"start":47.152,"end":62.314,"text":"還是針對這個社會住宅也好都有提供蠻多的土地那我想問一下董事長這個提供土地部分你們是配合呢還是你們會主動的釋出盤點出這個閒置用地給地方政府來或是給電子幕來使用以社宅為例的話"},{"start":64,"end":82.174,"text":"跟委員報告我們是盤點出來然後給那個地方政府或是中央政府需要的來篩選所以如果有在這個市中心精華區的部分你們提供了盤點出來的土地就讓可能內政部也好或地方政府來決定要怎麼樣來使用是不是這樣子"},{"start":83.368,"end":102.555,"text":"大概是這樣 對再來這個社福完之後你的這個報告裡面有提到說同時也會配合能源政策優先的以閒置土地活化跟複合式利用的方式來規劃太陽能板的光電設施那我要問的是說在公司經營策略上面提供社福土地"},{"start":103.735,"end":116.209,"text":"跟提供這個設宅的這個新辦基地還有跟這個提供能源政策的這個設置太陽光點板的這幾個順位上面在市中心的話請問一下台南公司的策略會以什麼樣的策略為主這個是不是"},{"start":121.894,"end":141.952,"text":"跟委員報告如果是社會住宅或是說社福的這個這個設施的話因為要考慮到整個人口還有整個交通的所以會集中在市中心那如果是這個再生能源的話那我們目前的做法就是說比如說"},{"start":142.552,"end":166.205,"text":"跟這個地方政府他有這個滯洪池的話我們就是水面的這個光電或是說我們各個建築物的這個屋頂型的這個太陽能板等等那個就不會比較會離開因為一部分的居民他還沒有辦法完全的這個接受這個就是會跟這個社宅或是說社福的設施會有一個地點的一個區隔"},{"start":167.281,"end":196.124,"text":"好 謝謝總經理那接下來因為你們剛剛提到政策當然如果是在為了提供可能社宅以後長照機可能要選擇市中心是交通比較方便的地方那就是因為你們有這個政策你們剛好這樣回應了所以我要提出一個個案當然台中這邊在這個台中的這個北屯區有一塊很完整的這個用地660多坪在市中心在捷運站旁邊那現階段你們是提供停車場來使用那後來最近有公告說要來蓋光電板"},{"start":196.924,"end":219.31,"text":"那這個土地分區呢它是第三種住宅區那我想我們都知道在市區的第三種住宅區啊它相對來講它的土地是比較利用價值比較高的那如果能夠來蓋社宅或是能夠來蓋這個社福機構我想對周邊的住戶來講它的使用會比較方便那如果你單純只使用這個用來只蓋光電板的話不覺得有點浪費嗎不知道台南的公司怎麼看待這個事情"},{"start":220.111,"end":243.644,"text":"我這邊跟委員報告一下我們那一塊地是因為那個地方有停車的這個需求非常的強烈那我們這個得標的業者他主要是要做這個停車場他只是就是說他的車棚上面他會去裝設太陽能板他並不是說是為了以太陽能板為主是以停車需求為主我知道"},{"start":244.484,"end":259.915,"text":"來 但是我現在還是要回到這公司今天你是這個公司的角度來看嘛到底是出租給停車場來使用來蓋供電板對公司的效益比較高呢還是說提供剛剛提到的不管是提供政府來提供社福土地或是來該社會住宅或是其他用途嘛因為今天"},{"start":260.655,"end":275.897,"text":"你如果蓋社福土地你去做長照機構也好或去做社會助長也好或做其他設施也好你的屋頂你一樣可以使用光電板了我沒有反對這件事情啊我今天講的是說今天這麼好的一個土地的區位它就在台中市的市中心結果呢"},{"start":276.818,"end":293.478,"text":"它是住宅用地喔 它也不是什麼農地 也不是什麼其他的用地它就是正住宅用地 而且在大馬路旁邊那結果你們攤販公司這塊用地的使用方式這麼多年下來就只提供停車場 然後接下來蓋光電板那不就浪費了 就是你們公司在資產運用上的這個效益了嗎"},{"start":294.119,"end":317.434,"text":"我想問的是說在蓋這個光電板之前我想地方上不管是地方政府也好或是說里長也好或周邊居民也好他們其實事前尤其是當地的這些居民他們覺得說這個土地我們希望說能夠有更有效的利用因為那是一個市中心難而有一個這麼完整空白的土地可以來使用結果如果你們只用來蓋光電板跟停車場不覺得很浪費嗎"},{"start":321.097,"end":333.802,"text":"所以我們在辦這塊土地的標諸的時候我們是採取一個短期的一個標諸的一個期間短期是多久?是五年五年後是不是優先承租權一樣同樣業者?"},{"start":337.211,"end":353.165,"text":"我們5年之後假設說這個有這個社宅或是說社福的需求的話我們就會收回來了好 那個時間也到了那我後續再請臺灣公司再跟我們辦公室來回報一下到底這後續要怎麼處理好不好好 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"158770","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158770","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb5816e1c96857f7324fa56fd3a12bc29fbbeefebb33f59272386e20a296e7f2f0315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:41:37 - 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部長好 委員好部長 其實本席一樣也關心今天上午這邊看到揮打的這一個辦公室的一個選址的部分你有回答是說這個黃恩勳董事長他有6月會宣布在哪邊嘛 對不對剛剛聽上一位委員的一個質詢一直強調南台灣那其實北台灣不管是本席所在的新北市"},{"start":41.129,"end":55.86,"text":"也有透過經發局也跟輝達這邊來保持密切的聯繫並且我們提供包括說林口的工醫工業區或者是淡水的這個土地也有可能是潛在的機會台北市也說有那"},{"start":56.42,"end":80.501,"text":"本時就好奇啊其實只要揮打能夠跟留台灣啦我想這都是好事啦對不對那但是在這部分說是不是不要讓各縣市好像變成是大家都要單打獨鬥或者是說大家都要擠破頭那這樣子好像是有你沒我經濟部在這個這一個部分上面可以扮演什麼樣更積極的角色是啊報告委員我們有跟這個揮打"},{"start":82.102,"end":106.668,"text":"表示說經濟部的這些support經濟部可以支援他什麼他希望在台灣落腳以後他有什麼樣的條件那他們也很客氣的回答說他們已經有一組人在台灣各地私下去看私下一直在轉然後最後會提供到美國他的董事會來做決定所以他們也很謝謝經濟部對他們的這個關注"},{"start":109.309,"end":131.108,"text":"那我個人所了解的就是說我們在經濟部所了解的就是說那他會選擇什麼地方基本上他大概要三公頃的土地他們的條件開出來大概的條件有開出來三公頃的土地要低度建築他要低度建築他不像我們一般的這個ICT的公司說我要去十樓二十樓他希望三樓"},{"start":134.631,"end":160.552,"text":"他三樓,所以他這裡面還是有一些問題,就是說他希望那個那個鉛幣率要大一點,這些是條件對,這些是公開的一個條件嘛,那但是我說各縣市現在就變成是說,我相信各縣市長也都摩拳霍霍也都拜託下面經發局啦,相關的局處,趕快找關係找管道然後去跟輝達來接觸,那這樣搞得好像全台灣各縣市在比武招親啊"},{"start":162.657,"end":182.231,"text":"但是這個是揮打自己設下的條件我們也沒有辦法說你一定要怎樣是所以經濟部能不能有一個更明確或說更公平公開的一個資訊來協助各縣市呢還是說這樣子會變成是各縣市來去跟揮打可能揮打可以個別談更有利的條件"},{"start":183.266,"end":208.053,"text":"這也許是他的想法他其實已經進行了一年多了那所以我認為這些事情我們現在就是跟他講請他到哪裡他其實通常也都是謝謝我們的協助部長在這件事情上面本席講當然在商言商啦沒有辦法 回答他就是現在自首可樂可是我們能不能透過這樣的一個管道即便"},{"start":209.173,"end":230.69,"text":"今天揮打落腳在任何一個縣市當然本席希望是說能夠落腳在本席的新北市可是只要落腳在台灣都好可是落腳在台灣之後還有其他縣市在這一次我覺得也很好的點是說這一次很多縣市也都提出非常不錯的地方來吸引國際的知名企業"},{"start":231.491,"end":246.685,"text":"那如果說這樣的話經濟部能不能利用這個機會來盤點說到底各縣市有哪些是好用的點那未來可能針對這幾個部分我們經濟部主動去海外來募集或是召集一些高科技企業他們針對這幾個點"},{"start":248.286,"end":270.976,"text":"是 您可以理解我意思嗎我瞭解我瞭解如果說到時候輝達選定在新北但台北的市北科也不錯啊高雄剛剛提到的台南也不錯啊那台南高雄台北這幾次所列出來這些地點是不是可以把它給匯集起來變成是我們下一次主動出籍去找沒有輝達那能不能有其他的高科技公司來選擇台灣"},{"start":272.296,"end":290.911,"text":"是啊這個報告委員我想我們投資台灣我們有這樣的經濟部有這樣的一個單位那我們會把委員剛剛所指導的這樣的一個條件我們會做成這是一個範本然後給所有投資來台灣投資的特別是AI的部分"},{"start":291.531,"end":316.827,"text":"所以我们现在已经有考虑好几个这个国家的这个比较大的这个土地就像刚才您所说的是四北科或者是今天在新北市其实也有蛮多的地方我们都知道它有10公顷以上的这个地方我们会把这些如果今天是经济部的产业园区我们就会整个这个把它建筑起来然后让他们直接进来"},{"start":317.327,"end":335.873,"text":"那他就是不需要再去買土地蓋廠房讓他們快速的可以進到台灣然後在整個的這個產業裡面產生加值的效果可以讓這些公司知道說來台灣投資是方便快速而且能夠有一條龍的服務完全是這樣"},{"start":336.773,"end":358.176,"text":"部長另外一個部分我想今天因為特別有審查到我們明年的這個相關的基金要點我請教一下冬天到了很多人都會想要去這個安排泡湯行程那你知道如果說在台灣安排這個溫泉泡湯的話溫泉的好溫泉的美應該要是誰來負責去宣傳"},{"start":359.217,"end":376.226,"text":"這應該是屬於我們如果對國外的人的宣傳是我們大概會透過外貿協會來建構這樣的一個廣宣的機制是由我們國貿署來主導那如果是國內的應該是我們商業發展署所會"},{"start":378.507,"end":403.697,"text":"對這樣來推廣但是現在因為這一部分因為都屬於各個地方所以他們的地方的特色現在是有國化會他們在推動一個地方創生所以我們現在都有在討論也謝謝委員的提示這個部分我們將會形成地方的特色所以在花蓮也好 台東也好 宜蘭也好"},{"start":404.828,"end":427.365,"text":"這都是我們的溫泉還有苗栗這些都是我們溫泉所擁有溫泉的地方那這個是我們的特色之一是部長這是我們的特色其實它也沒有那麼的大沒有說一定要國發會這邊來做因為為什麼我會特別提到說溫泉是要誰來宣傳就是因為溫泉是我們經濟部相關的一個管轄"},{"start":428.246,"end":455.987,"text":"我們經濟部有掌管水資源作業基金裡面就有針對溫泉這邊來讓經濟部可以跟地方政府收錢是的是啊那但是今天我們總共收入明年有95億而相關的一個經費或是說相關的一個運用的部分但我們一直沒有看到說比較積極的去辦理跟地方政府來合作或是說跟地方政府來結合或者是說跟觀光"},{"start":457.569,"end":476.986,"text":"來做一個結合各縣各部會單打獨鬥真的是已經過去了能夠實在我們如果說連我們把集中資源要宣傳一個都不容易那更何況是現在各部會單打獨鬥來部長是謝謝委員的指導剛才所講的這個錢呢基本上是我們維護"},{"start":479.008,"end":492.203,"text":"維護這個溫泉的所需要的費用當然我想您剛才的指導之後我們會再回來再檢討然後把這個資源能夠能夠集中然後來服務所有的國人資源在你這邊啊"},{"start":492.984,"end":512.971,"text":"那這樣子我現在是不是說幾個有溫泉的部分像本席的新北市我們也有這個溫泉啊金山的溫泉也好或者說我們這個相關的這些溫泉其實也都是非常有名大家也都會了解能不能有比較具體的做法跟縣市還是跟觀光"},{"start":513.931,"end":530.638,"text":"能夠怎麼樣來結合來去做一個推動好的我們回去馬上檢討那馬上希望能夠推出第一波能夠趕在這個寒假這個新年假期啊就可以做一點這個基本的這個廣宣好非常好那什麼時候可以給本席相關的資料"},{"start":534.985,"end":553.605,"text":"兩個禮拜兩個禮拜內是告訴本席說你們要怎麼樣來推廣至少讓今年尤其今年相對來講是寒冬啊是冬天比較冷大家就想到溫泉讓溫泉可以變成是大家的一個DNA讓更多人知道台灣好的溫泉是兩個禮拜本席等您報告好的"}]}},{"id":"158769","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158769","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb580e2b88e7d92a2b639b82b4e80112db25eefebb33f59272388d5162d7c243163e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:38:20 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謝謝召委 我們請這個陳次長請陳次長來 次長好 次長早這個我想現在是元旦剛過一月份那今年的農曆年特別的早大概再三個禮拜就過年了所以我關心的是我們春節的疏運雖然大家會想說"},{"start":28.61,"end":52.268,"text":"所以理論上應該不會有交通打結的問題可是我想我們有那麼多次的每年的經驗告訴我們這個春節年前這個大家要返鄉過年這是台灣人的人情味跟過年的氣氛一定要回家團圓所以春節前這個一定是我們疏運的一個最大最大的一個挑戰"},{"start":53.149,"end":61.98,"text":"對不對 所以我就要請教一下我們現在到底準備好了沒有這個首先先從高鐵來講高鐵今天也有人來吧高鐵"},{"start":66.044,"end":87.715,"text":"高鐵我一再的強調從去年的中秋節發生的台中站發生的這個人龍排了又排繞了好幾圈以後呢高鐵每次都跟我說他面對連假啦面對這個重大節日一定都有所準備但是呢我們又看到媒體有報導高鐵台中站在今年的跨年還是什麼還是一團亂"},{"start":93.172,"end":115.062,"text":"跨年爆倉人滿為患上面有媒體報導有拍下的照片整個車廂佔滿的人佔滿的人甚至還影響到搭乘高鐵旅客出入的通行所以有對號座的旅客甚至走不進去"},{"start":116.281,"end":137.217,"text":"那這個東西我只是就提出來希望市長能夠好好的來要求高鐵那我們接下來的春節的疏運能不能做好市長你覺得這是問題嗎為什麼每一次都有每一次的挑戰每一次都有每一次的被人民抱怨的地方"},{"start":139.468,"end":159.697,"text":"跟委員做一個說明有關這個今年的春節也是誠如委員講的會有很多的旅客在台中站所以昨天其實部長就召開了相關的一個春節輸運的一個相關的會議在那個會議裡頭也特別針對高鐵台中站的輸運的情形有做相關的一個指示"},{"start":160.277,"end":173.327,"text":"當然就是要該會員的他們也有相關的SOP的機制所以希望他們一定要落實那落實之外呢其實更希望他們能夠找到這個在他們的輸運裡頭所存在的一個風險針對那個風險來研議更加精進的一個做法"},{"start":176.61,"end":203.082,"text":"那另外一方面就是說當高鐵的相關的旅客都已經就是說在輸運能量上有限的情況下交通部相關的單位譬如說台鐵或國道客運如何來加入資源這個也是在這個昨天開會裡頭也有一些相關的一個討論而且也請不管是這個鐵道局或者是台高公司都希望他們能夠去研議相關的一個方案"},{"start":203.502,"end":222.443,"text":"市長我希望還有三個禮拜的時間我想很多的SOP跟這個因應方式措施都可以再精進再調整的更好更周全我不希望說以高鐵為例去年中秋發生的那個問題然後解決了然後現在跨年又發生了一個"},{"start":223.564,"end":244.781,"text":"沒有辦法因應的一個狀況然後又惹民怨那如果這些每一次只要碰到連假或是碰到重大節日就爆出一個沒有辦法因應的狀況的情況之下會讓國人對於我們的這個高鐵是我們這個交通運具裡面的最高規格的也是最快速的一個鐵路鐵道軌道運輸結果還是會發生這樣的事情那我覺得這個會有損國人對我們的信任度跟支持度這第一點"},{"start":252.327,"end":275.909,"text":"那除了高鐵之外當然我們就要講高鐵之外剛剛次長有講到的台鐵國道準備好了沒有還有機場尤其這個今年的年假有高達9天我預計往前推跟往後推大概出國的人潮會大爆滿以這個上次我們媒體也有"},{"start":278.091,"end":290.982,"text":"講過這個現在啊在疫後啊這個出國人數大爆發或者是我們的國外的要來進來台灣的觀光旅客我看看今天的新聞有寫到也會預計會破千萬人次喔那機場"},{"start":292.603,"end":314.555,"text":"我們的機場不管是桃園機場台中機場或者是小港機場那重中之重我想應該大家會覺得是桃園機場會大塞車尤其呢光是安檢或是整個動線的一個安排那沒有辦法去化所以呢這個我們機場現在在還有三個禮拜可以來因應調整這個春節這個出國跟來台灣的觀光客那我們有沒有準備好"},{"start":321.338,"end":322.611,"text":"那個董事長來做說明一下"},{"start":323.993,"end":350.891,"text":"是非常謝謝委員機場在最近曾經發生過一次塞車那一次塞車的事件事實上它有兩個原因一個是旅客量增加航班就是航機的量體是增加的沒錯所以同樣的一班飛機帶來旅客量進出的旅客量是增加那問題出在兩個關鍵點一個是安檢一個是這個查驗的問題那安檢的部分第一個是動線上它的設備不能損壞"},{"start":351.932,"end":365.862,"text":"因為目前我們上一次的這個賽車事件是九條的安全線裡面有一條臨時故障所以那個部分我們已經請行警局要特別去交講做維護所以要講 請行警局要特別春節的因應措施不能出錯對"},{"start":367.423,"end":394.072,"text":"那這兩天我們已經開了兩次會那另外一個是另外一個是人力不足的問題那行警那邊已經向上面求助所以在警政署那邊他們已經加派了五十七個人力最近會多少人力 警政署要五十七位的人力因為每一條安檢線的配置人力如果不到四位的話都有可能會作業上比較慢他們已經知道這個問題的嚴重性那院裡面也非常關心這個問題所以會加強把這個問題克服掉是啊"},{"start":395.012,"end":415.061,"text":"董事長你剛剛現在講的大家都在聽我們期待這一次的春節在機場桃園機場的旅運是一個順暢的就算會塞也不能塞個好幾個小時人潮無法去化那甚至會影響到這個航班的起飛是不是"},{"start":415.501,"end":432.169,"text":"是所以機場公司一起服務的幾個單位CIQS單位都有責任我們會協調所以橫向跟垂直的一個溝通協調拜託要真的是精進而且真的是能夠到位啦好不好那台鐵跟國道呢"},{"start":433.411,"end":452.024,"text":"報告委員來台鐵報告委員謝謝委員的關切我們現在台鐵目前已經加開了302班就委員這裡所提到的運能會增加7.3%那我們目前持續掌握我們的訂票狀況跟還有我們的決策資源系統所以我們預計在1月10號還會再加開24列次讓整體運能提升到9.2%"},{"start":456.787,"end":472.265,"text":"那針對委員關切的這個台中的這個部分我們現在目前在第二波加班我們還會加開五列次的台中到台北的一個直達車那兩個小時內就可以從中部區的民眾就可以到台北那台北也可以回到台中"},{"start":473.186,"end":490.283,"text":"對來回這個部分我們也有在處理那我們跟高鐵也有配合高鐵的在台中烏日站的應變小組我們也會橫向加強聯繫隨時來因應處理有可能高鐵可能產生的外溢的一個效果以上好那國道呢"},{"start":492.965,"end":515.082,"text":"跟委員報告那國道部分我們是跟國道公警的部分已經有合作那我們最大的風險是事故事故的部分那我們這邊在事故的一個方式我們國道在國道系統還有銜接的其他的快速道路系統那尤其我們國道1號國道3號跟74號是中部地區最容易有瓶頸塞車的一個路段"},{"start":516.753,"end":535.889,"text":"就尤其是初二、初三、初四這三天因為我們大概年假的部分就這三天全年當中就是這三天會超過130萬、百萬車公里以上的車次所以你們的因應措施那我們這一段的部分的話我們會重點一個看守就是說在這裡面有任何一個狀況都會馬上去做一個處理"},{"start":537.796,"end":557.665,"text":"你們現在對媒體是說有七大疏導措施嘛對不對對我們就希望是說對重點的瓶頸的這個路段跟時間跟空間的一個分流啊主要就是這個部分啊希望這民眾用路人可以來配合的不要大家就集中一個時間多集中一個一個一個時段進去的話那當然就會塞如果說做一個分流的話他會比較順暢"},{"start":558.766,"end":587.279,"text":"是啦我們每年都是這樣子宣導啦但是每年都還是會有塞車的現象啦那我們只能期待不要塞太久啊是在可以容忍可以容忍的一個這個塞車時段如果沒有事故的話就應該是不會塞太久那另外一個是我們1968所以你預期今年的初二初三初四你剛剛講的這個運量最高的這三天裡面如果沒有交通事故的話不會塞太久"},{"start":588.62,"end":605.518,"text":"還是會塞但不會塞太久1968會提供完整的資訊那大家可以來多參考那個路況資訊市長我還是希望雖然昨天部長有主持但是接下來我們還有將近三個禮拜的時間我希望海陸空"},{"start":606.258,"end":626.735,"text":"那通通要做好這個春節這個年假的一個疏運的一個完整完善的一個營運措施我覺得還是要給國人一個信任信任我們的政府部門在交通這個區塊在過年大家歡喜過年的這個時刻不會因為塞車不會因為上不了飛機不會因為錯過班機不會因為在高鐵上不了車"},{"start":632.64,"end":657.379,"text":"坐不了位子 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請陳次長請陳次長"},{"start":14.582,"end":29.555,"text":"市長早安市長今天想跟你討論一下這個我們公車全面電動化的這個議題我看了一下我們這個台灣2050的淨零碳排路徑跟策略規劃12項關鍵戰略計畫之七運具電動化及無碳化這個報告裡面"},{"start":35.765,"end":49.452,"text":"我們詳細訂了電動市區公車它的普及率2023年我們當時是12.5所以我們希望在2023年年底達到21然後2025年達到35那現在已經2025年了市長你知道現在的電動市區公車的普及率是多少嗎"},{"start":62.417,"end":89.283,"text":"這部分我跟委員報告一下目前大概就是說113年底的一個市區公車那個電動市區公車的這個總數的部分市區公車加上少數大概將近30輛的這個公務客運的部分的話現在實際上路運行的大概這個1900多輛大概將近這個2000輛那目前去年這個公務總局已經核定給這個地方政府大概也將近2000輛的一個這個車"},{"start":91.263,"end":110.695,"text":"如果說以這個商路這個運行然後再加上合併中在這個採購打造的這個部分的話大概將近這個3000輛的一個這個車這個大概是去年的部分那今年要達到35%的部分的話那今年公務總局會在這個按照計畫來這個合併"},{"start":112.136,"end":128.833,"text":"那我印象中今年至少會核定1600輛的一個這個東西給各地方政府去分配給相關的市區跟業者來做採購跟這一個換薪好所以換言之到本席今天講話的時候我們核定了多少輛實際在運行有多少輛"},{"start":129.834,"end":132.417,"text":"實際運行將近2000輛合併的部分將近1400多輛明年在今年2025年達到4600輛佔普及率35%有沒有問題"},{"start":147.664,"end":173.531,"text":"我們會朝這個目標來做努力因為我跟委員報告一下現在世家客運業者的產能沒有問題那因為市區客運主體的部分是地方政府在這個那我們這個錢分配給地方政府那現在也跟地方政府就是說要趕快這個他們所轄的客運業者按照車領趕快核定來做貸款所以這中間有一個緩解我們必須要跟地方政府來做一個合作"},{"start":174.292,"end":179.045,"text":"所以到去年年底我們的目標是達成的"},{"start":179.542,"end":205.799,"text":"是我目標應該是我如果沒記錯應該是2125是嗎25是25那我們大概領牌的跟核定的大概有剛才講到大概約3300輛所以他的那個普及率大概到31.5的樣子所以你們是所以如果再放眼2025我覺得我們應該可以逐步來達成好"},{"start":206.656,"end":231.325,"text":"那各縣市我們回到各縣市的比例這個六都當中高雄最高是35.8對不對然後六都的像台中就剩下18桃園就剩下3.4那還有幾個六都以外的縣市是0一台都沒有嗎"},{"start":232.895,"end":242.614,"text":"那在分配上面這些包括比例很低的六都比例很低或者公車營業數量幾乎掛零的交通部的看法是什麼"},{"start":245.39,"end":273.786,"text":"這邊跟委員報告一下大概就是說確實目前電動公車的數量大概主要集中在六都那最主要就是說六都的市區科運路線跟數量會比較多那這個除了六都之外大概這個市區公車比較多那個數量跟路線數比較多大概就是基隆的那部分那像有一些我舉個例子譬如說像台東花蓮它本身的市區科運沒關係我就列出幾個掛領譬如新竹市"},{"start":275.286,"end":297.956,"text":"吉隆市這兩個都零嘛對那目前公務總局在核定給地方政府都優先以這些形式來做這個核定這個而且核了那核了之後目前就是在催促地方政府督促這些客運業者趕快去採購然後這個領牌商好那你核給他到今天譬如說以2024好了2024你有核給他嗎"},{"start":300.936,"end":303.387,"text":"他2024年已經過完了嘛 他還是零 對不對是這樣嗎"},{"start":305.273,"end":330.975,"text":"跟這個我們報告就是說核熱之後那這個坑業者他必須要去做採購那採購車輛有一定的這個打造的這個期間但是在公務局的這個補助要點裡面有限定這個核定完之後多少期間要這個領排所以目前還在這個期間裡面後續這個公總大概每個月都會邀請地方政府來這個盤點大家執行的一個這個進度"},{"start":334.36,"end":357.736,"text":"那這樣六都裡面比例很低,譬如說桃園跟新北3.4跟9.8就是你的看起來就目前超標就幾個靠高雄、台南、台北台北也沒有,台北21而已嘛你以25為基準的話,只有台南跟高雄是高的"},{"start":358.752,"end":385.58,"text":"那其他甚至桃園只有3.4跟你現在講的2024年達到25這個差距還是很遠嗎那這些縣市是怎麼樣這個大概是這個領排實際在營運的部分那像新北跟桃園的部分的話大概就是去年這個核定他這些這個完成採購商務之後那個比例就會上來台中也是一樣台中也是18也是低於平均水準"},{"start":388.286,"end":402.255,"text":"這裡頭顯現的是領牌啦 上路領牌那剛才有特別提到今年或即將在去年或是今年會合的 它的數量就會增加對 那我其實是這樣嘛 因為我是依照你這個嘛你這個2023年21% 2024年25% 2025年要35%這個是領牌還是還是你們已經合訂要補助的"},{"start":412.485,"end":431.34,"text":"所以我還是在講領牌嘛我用這個數字合定跟領牌一起算因為我們合定他以後他就會去打造打造完了他就會領牌所以實際上路的不會低於你們列出來的目標嘛那可不可以把實際上路的目標也給我啦"},{"start":432.613,"end":442.258,"text":"我們講電動公車我們是在講空污嘛我們的它的概念是這樣子嘛所以實際上路的才能解決空污嗎"},{"start":443.325,"end":471.058,"text":"跟我們報告一下就是說這個35%的目標裡面的話因為這個有營運的有核定的那核定我們的規定最多不能超過9個月因為車輛要打造9個月一定要上路所以這個核定跟整個總數裡面核定大概會有一些數量是有9個月的時間差需要去採購車輛然後完成打造車輛沒關係你就給我一個你現在核定三個數字嘛你核定的"},{"start":471.778,"end":481.028,"text":"然後呢實際運行的跟打造中的你要給我嗎再來搭配還有一個就是你的目標嘛我要講的意思就是說"},{"start":483.837,"end":503.189,"text":"中央有中央的問題如果說我們今天因為我們沒有任何的強制力就我們面對你這個是2050淨零碳排的路徑這是中央政府施政的目標我們就是讓台灣空氣品質變好我們要淨零碳排嘛"},{"start":503.829,"end":522.939,"text":"那靜電太白裡面有運一項一項的很多項目啦那我講的就是我先處理這個我們已經電動巴士我們搞很久了嘛電動公車那電動公車那麼久到底你今天跟你的目標的差距到底在哪裡啦我們台中也又倒一斤了"},{"start":526.144,"end":553.243,"text":"這個電動巴士又倒一間去了那我要講的就是說你第一個如果是我們中央在補助或者在法規上面沒有強制力那我們就要想辦法去做好如何可以落實這個目標的法規跟預算但如果法規跟預算都沒有問題那我就要問嘛台中市、新北市、桃園市這三個市是在幹嘛"},{"start":555.517,"end":580.463,"text":"市長要有一點責任 不能都沒責任你對於大家一起我們講過淨零碳排是不能遺漏任何一個人更不能遺漏任何一個城市嘛那你搞到剩下3.4我們台中還要10倍啦雖然你現在你講的你說到今年標準中央的標準是25啦要達到25%我們台中也要標準以下"},{"start":584.762,"end":609.214,"text":"存這9.8到3.4到底是什麼情形嘛?到底是因為這個管理機構都不配合說我們這個管理機構空氣比較壞沒關係我們這裡的人肺比較健康所以我們這裡空氣比較壞不太好我們要有方法嘛不然這個又要罵了 每次都地方政府汙染都說中庸都大方的中庸啦這數據在這裡嘛 我要說的就是說"},{"start":611.209,"end":634.94,"text":"你中央 如果說今天我們補助款就沒落去你們沒有核定給人家 說你中央都沒有給我補助還是說我們的法規就是一大堆問題中央沒有立定這個法 相關的法規所以我地方政府無所適從 沒有辦法遵守那中央就要檢討但如果我這些都做了 你地方政府數據出來還給我搞一個18 9.8 3.4"},{"start":639.714,"end":654.987,"text":"這些縣市首長、縣市政府難道不需要出來講講話嗎我們每天在檢討台灣的空屋這些縣市首長不需要出來空屋團體也應該去找他們一下啊數字管理啊為什麼這些縣市首長不配合啊原因到底是什麼啊"},{"start":656.004,"end":681.482,"text":"所以本席是站在我們要釐清問題啦事情不能大家瞎貨嘛到底是怎樣可以我們都有訂定我們的計畫裡面都有目標每一年要做到哪裡都很清楚啊到底為什麼有一些人他就可以這樣子你現在講數據欸好像剛剛你跟我講我是不知道你跟我說達標嘛好啦我就姑且相信達標啊達標我們以前檢討過程做到35.8捏"},{"start":687.218,"end":702.996,"text":"也有3.4%的這是什麼情形所以市長時間到了因為主席不好意思給他每次都耽擱太多時間本席希望你們好好檢討一下到底這些地方政府是怎樣"},{"start":704.727,"end":730.973,"text":"委員簡單回應一下有關這個電動車的推動的這樣的一個情形我們大概有責請公務局邀請地方政府來相關的去檢討那如何來加速這個地方來審議那另外一個有關這個各縣市的最後的領牌的情形這個我們也會請公務局必要時這個定期來公布相關的一個結果市長這個要加油一下這個不可以這樣子"},{"start":731.893,"end":750.705,"text":"這個有些才三點多,要靠過,如果平均達到那個標準,這個我覺得不合理啦大家如果都差一點點沒關係,有些人自由一點,但不能差距太遠嘛差距太遠,公民團體上街遊行說空汙不好,空汙不好每次都找那些特定那幾個人,這樣有利"},{"start":752.987,"end":774.216,"text":"所以大家數據管理我沒有任何意思我也沒有特別去強調哪一個縣市是哪一個黨我就拿數據出來講話大家理性一點來討論為什麼這些人不做他們到底有什麼問題什麼毛病為什麼不做如果是中央的我們要虛心檢討要趕快改進如果我中央錢也到了法規也到了你地方不做"},{"start":775.336,"end":781.23,"text":"不做就個人造業個人擔啊不能每次都找中央算帳這哪有道理好 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那我接下來要問一個部分就是因為石油基金在114年度當中有編列一個電動機車的一個產業環境價值補助的部分那麼針對這個部分有6.78億元那這補助主要在針對電動機車的補助那我想請問一下部長這邊"},{"start":389.722,"end":398.796,"text":"目前台灣的電動機車的市占率大概多少然後我們目前的一個市售比大概多少我可不可以請我們產發署可以"},{"start":402.714,"end":412.383,"text":"報告委員目前電動機車的保全台電動全台機車的保有量有1465萬輛電動車在截至去年11月有"},{"start":422.051,"end":445.959,"text":"因為時間有限你們針對這部分我針對這部分我要特別問的是因為Gogoro的部分因為一直被檢舉它其實國產化不足可是又拿到了我們很多的一個經濟部推動電動機車產業補助這個部分國產化的一個補助那我知道這部分目前還在糾紛當中因為包括Gogoro VIVA這個車款還有JGO這車款的時候都被檢舉"},{"start":447.159,"end":469.752,"text":"它國產化的部分有問題那針對這部分部長這邊有沒有特別的說明否則的話是 報告委員我們依法行事OK針對這個部分因為我覺得看到目前的一個產發署的一個回應的時候我覺得感覺不夠清楚希望事後再給本席針對這個問題更清楚的一個報告檢討的一個報告好不好是的好"},{"start":472.173,"end":498.249,"text":"好那我最後問台糖這個部分因為台糖的一個金融事業部我問一下就是我們預計就是去年的時候本來可以由負轉正結果還是負的那今年的預算當中的時候呢還比去年在持續的往上增加覺得會越來越好可不可以請台糖董事長這邊做一個簡單的一個說明"},{"start":501.809,"end":527.347,"text":"金融事業這個部分可以可以委員報告謝謝是跟委員報告我們金融事業部蝴蝶蘭的部分美國的虧損是最大那為什麼美國虧損最大主要是受到兩個大的因素影響第一個因素就是那個疫情期間造成的影響那第二個是俄烏戰爭之後整個航運的混亂還有這個貨櫃"},{"start":532.53,"end":552.719,"text":"謝謝你回應不過這個部分的時候我想特別問的是金融事業部就是去年本來預計要由副轉正沒有達標然後明年的預算的時候還持續看好那我希望你們之後來跟本席做一個很清楚的說明有關於金融事業部在美國加州的分公司的狀態不斷的虧損"},{"start":555.34,"end":582.568,"text":"目前虧損的時候呢已經欠了3億8千多萬的虧損然後還欠母公司也是3億多元那我希望針對這個部分因為審計部有要求就是針對美國公司是不是要有一個退場的機制要做一個清楚的判斷那我們請台堂之後在本辦公室一個很清楚的說明針對金融事業這部分的一個發展是 沒問題好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158762","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158762","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb58936dab2950998764a56fd3a12bc29fbbeefebb33f5927238064411f9f51987335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:14:51 - 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謝謝主席部長先休息我請中油的方董事長請中油方董事長"},{"start":26.676,"end":52.988,"text":"董事長我們都知道我們國家缺乏自產的這個能源高達97%都是從國外進口而來的所以我們為了讓我們能源能夠穩定在2022年的時候我們就從國外探採工作計畫希望說我們能夠自主能源能夠達到10%但是到了2024年的現在我們的油源跟我們天然氣在我們中油的"},{"start":53.988,"end":70.572,"text":"那個鏈產的量大概是4.89%跟2.98%達到這個10%這個目標相距還很大所以要請教董事長那我們中油跟其他國家的合作的那個探勘的這個作業什麼時候可以達到10%什麼時候你們有什麼預計什麼時候"},{"start":77.83,"end":93.543,"text":"我很難跟委員報告說我預計什麼時候原因是怎麼樣呢就是在國外的碳勘或者是併購相關的礦區它都會隨著國際的情勢會有很多的一些變化所以在併購礦區的部分"},{"start":95.1,"end":104.526,"text":"我們一直希望就是說委員會這邊能給我們公司在探勘預算能夠有足夠的預算探勘預算一直給你們我就講了2005年到2023年我們在周邊海域探勘花了31億"},{"start":112.461,"end":123.796,"text":"絕本無歸到現在還沒有結果是不是如果我們跟其他國家合作的話這個結果會更好像我們在跟澳洲探勘的原油我們每年可以拿回300萬噸"},{"start":126.691,"end":141.931,"text":"300萬桶拿回300萬桶跟泥日的話我們每年可以拿回780萬桶所以是不是用合作的方式會比我們自己在周邊海域探勘來得有成效對 目前我們把重心就放在所以你們有沒有專家來做一個評估是"},{"start":143.069,"end":153.177,"text":"那尤其你剛剛講的風險問題現在中東國家中東國家的話我們看到以色列跟巴勒斯坦這個國家這個戰爭已經一年的那未來我們在這邊投資的有這個將近有5%的卡達的液化天然氣的股權的問題你們有在評估風險嗎"},{"start":162.323,"end":172.346,"text":"風險有評估跟卡達這個合作我們認為是沒有問題的因為我們跟卡達長期以往有很長久的關係根據以往的過程經歷來看的話卡達這個國家是沒有短掃給台灣這邊所用的重點我們認為風險不大"},{"start":186.359,"end":210.864,"text":"所以要穩定 所以我們投資這個預算的投資在這邊效益還是可以保證沒有問題我們認為 我們信心度很高好 董事長這句話我們就放心了我們一直擔心的就是中東方面的投資那我們希望這個所有的風險評估啊你現在是說沒有問題但是我們希望你們做一個風險評估之後到立法院來做報告好不好 不定時的做這個評估可以嗎 好"},{"start":212.944,"end":232.571,"text":"接下來的話就請教董事長因為我們那個在桃園有個三接站三接站我們要天然氣的這個三接站那因為我們外移了455公尺之後那我們很多的漁船要繞道而行甚至我們的天然氣要進來的時候很多漁船都要停下"},{"start":233.291,"end":235.775,"text":"把網收起來 停工所以影響了整個漁民的整個生計比如說他們要走很遠才能夠出海去捕魚他們每年增加了將近10萬塊的燃料的成本"},{"start":248.775,"end":264.928,"text":"但我們給他的補助一次性的補助了這個16萬但是他一年的油費就消耗掉了那影響了整個海域的這個生態海流的方式讓漁獲量也減少那有沒有請專家來評估對他們捕魚整個環境影響的話給他們一個相對應的這個補助嗎"},{"start":269.321,"end":297.546,"text":"是跟委員報告有關三階這個漁業補償歷經了相當的時間分三階段來處理第一階段是在民國大概90年第一階段都已經處理完了現在可是陸續的捕魚的環境一直都很惡化所以他們抗議聲很大你們有沒有聽到他們的抗議一再請你們去開會我要說明第一階段有關那個漁業權的部分已經補償漁業權也已經撤銷掉這個16萬已經補償我說了第二階段我們補助大概有"},{"start":300.487,"end":320.996,"text":"0.79億這第三階段外推這個部分又補貼了0.5補償了0.56億所以董事長你這樣的補貼方式講這個金額是很不公道的這是因為他們的漁獲量減少或者是說他們的燃料費增加你們用這個海警這個我們的交通船跟這個警戒船來補助他們"},{"start":322.256,"end":343.41,"text":"每一年有300趟次這樣的補助但是你知道嗎他們每次出海捕魚的話本來一次性可以有2萬塊的收入現在不到1萬塊那這樣子的話你的補助你獎金是不對的他們出海都是虧損回來的而且你知道他們四居都在捕魚他們的生計他們未來活下去啊"},{"start":344.249,"end":369.395,"text":"所以你應該跟他們再多多的溝通了解他們整個環境的改變變化由我們專家學者來做這個立基點來給他們適應的來補助好不好適當的補助好不好好 可以我想我們可以跟他們進行對談再來大家互相再來討論一下你們談過了可是你沒有去做一個補助或者說明你們談過多少次你知道嗎董事長"},{"start":371.615,"end":397.065,"text":"我不曉得這個數字好 你知道有沒有在談是有談 為什麼要談抗疫非常大我們不希望說影響你們的作業你們在2028年的話就開始要試營運了嘛 對不對如果說你們這方面沒有處理好的話會影響你的作業因為你影響他們的生計他們為了要活下去繼續補育但是餘貨量一直減少"},{"start":397.765,"end":417.13,"text":"這是很嚴重的問題我們三接的話今年就會試營運了這第一點第二個有關於漁民這個補償相關的事項我們會再跟他們再繼續溝通所以你們做的是提早了但是影響他們整個漁獲量這部分請董事長這邊你們有去溝通有去開會但是沒有給一個答案去處理"},{"start":419.438,"end":428.87,"text":"董事長這邊可以承諾嗎可以承諾你一定要去處理要不然的話到時候他們又在抗爭的話會影響整個作業啦好不好好謝謝謝謝林議員謝謝方董事長"}]}},{"id":"158761","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158761","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/740a0dd0b202cb580244223f2c28cecca56fd3a12bc29fbbeefebb33f5927238686bf1ce6383841d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:01:23 - 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我們邀請部長請郭部長"},{"start":20.922,"end":43.867,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長我們現在總預算裡頭的公務預算1000億那之前我們也追加1000億所以台電希望要撥補這個2000億但是我們看到台電送來的這一份財務改善計畫裡面的報告我不知道你有沒有看過因為它裡面的結論是說就算"},{"start":46.768,"end":65.427,"text":"補了兩千億在二零二六年跟二零一七年呢二零二七年呢仍舊會虧損而且台電也特別說他沒有辦法單靠自身努力達到損益兩平而且他還建議喔他建議說如果燃料成本波動"},{"start":66.408,"end":86.079,"text":"那麼可考慮適度的來調整民生電價或者是政府持續來補助民生用電那如果依照台電的這份財務改善計畫的報告來說那是不是 也就是說要繼續的要錢嗎還是要繼續的來漲電價 請教部長"},{"start":92.884,"end":101.061,"text":"報告委員我想我們在請這個大院同意撥補這個錢主要是在協助我們改善台電的財務"},{"start":102.697,"end":125.201,"text":"是台電的財務當然啊 但是你也曾經講過啊你說如果拿到撥補這兩千億如果還在漲電價那就是你下台的時候啊我們聽到了這句話覺得你非常有gas啊所以我們很期待這一份台電的財務計畫的報告但是我們看到了也就是說即使在撥補這個兩千億仍舊仍舊 還有兩個方案"},{"start":130.43,"end":131.815,"text":"提出兩個方案繼續撥補還是說要漲民生電價請說明"},{"start":137.112,"end":157.88,"text":"漲不漲價這個我想委員應該很清楚啦他的報告書已經這麼說了嘛那你認為會不會你認為會不會電價委員他們在決定不過我想行政院大概會考慮未來這個補助的部分可能不會由台電來承擔就是由各個單位自己來編預算來撥補這樣子"},{"start":163.362,"end":181.059,"text":"那台電我們現在沒有辦法做未來長期的這個假設所以我們也是就這個115年114、115、116嘛我們大概是談這樣然後大概17、118它算出來大概就是會虧損主要還是因為這個洞比較大"},{"start":182.04,"end":208.253,"text":"那我們又要借錢拿借錢來做那再來未來的這個我們相信不過我就我的專業來看跟委員報告也就是說因為這個牽扯到材料的這個原料的價格不是控制在自己手上這個我們都要去海外去買一些原料不管是煤或者是這個天然氣這些都是要向外購買"},{"start":209.093,"end":224.145,"text":"大部長您這麼回答 也就是台電的這個財務改善計畫那麼您目前所回答跟他們的論點是相同喔那所以民眾看到這個會害怕我即使在波普 因為之前"},{"start":224.605,"end":230.492,"text":"你們一再說台電吸收的民生用電2800億但是我們再看到2023年其實我們增資的部分呢已經預算編列是2500億又來一個特別預算是500億如果再加上這2000億等於在三年就有5000億耶"},{"start":244.449,"end":247.331,"text":"這就是人民的納稅錢耶所以人民希望的是大家必須要有一套方案讓人民可以知道可以安心嘛尤其在現在通本的這個情況啊"},{"start":257.623,"end":282.182,"text":"報告委員現在我們非常同意委員的指教就是說民生的部分民生的部分我們來努力來努力維持這個希望能夠讓這些審議委員能夠同意不漲價民生的部分不漲價我謝謝你的回答因為現在真的民眾很辛苦但是對那個出口的"},{"start":283.001,"end":310.174,"text":"他的業務是出口的而且他有很高利潤的我們希望他可以接受市場的變動的價格我現在聽到部長你誠意的回答也看到民眾的心聲民生的店價不漲這第一個但是我們看到你還是要解決問題也就是在你整個也就是我本身要請教何能"},{"start":311.414,"end":331.945,"text":"在您的任內 在賴清德總統的任內 會不會演繹你這又便宜 全世界又認可的 我們不用到目前為止 本席一直希望在這個委員會 在大院執行的時候我也特別要求 本席特別要求 你也答應的 光電 風電 天然氣"},{"start":334.346,"end":351.096,"text":"接收站以及相關的發電量建設計這個進度你必須逐年的方式來公佈也就是列出每一年的進度跟目標但是到目前為止你答應的時候月底現在已經一月了我們還沒有拿到你的內容"},{"start":351.916,"end":370.009,"text":"為什麼會如此呢部長這是你在大院跟在經濟委員會答應本席的今天已經1月8號本席希望要信所承諾這些就是人們希望要知道的是不是要如期趕快拿出你的這個進度跟目標呢"},{"start":372.026,"end":390.465,"text":"我們如果承諾的事情應該是都會如期的交上來那為什麼沒有如期呢是非常暴露出了什麼狀況呢那我回去以後再了解一下好 所以請你敬書送來我們希望能夠知道我們整個能源究竟要怎麼做"},{"start":391.486,"end":403.236,"text":"所以我再一次請教因為大家都知道全世界現在對於核能他們是接受的那請教部長在你的任內以及賴清德總統的任內那會不會核電來研議呢會不會來解除我們用電的壓力嗎"},{"start":409.28,"end":425.673,"text":"這個是我們的選項之一選項之一但我們朝這個方面,我們還有三個基本原則在說第一個就是所有的國人都能夠同意然後這個核廢料的這個處理沒有問題"},{"start":426.654,"end":453.192,"text":"第三個它是安全的那我也講過了其實我們大家都在朝這個方面在努力朝這個方向而且是選項之一我們也希望解除用電的壓力我也希望這個可以成真你們好好去評估跟研討那接下來本席要請教台智電引發了工會的不滿也到了立法院來抗議所以本席要請教因為之前"},{"start":454.053,"end":477.939,"text":"中鋼公會抗議呢?它不是沒有道理的為什麼呢?因為中鋼有轉投資失敗的前例也就是興達海基那興達海基在2018年4月份成立之後配合著我們風電的國廠化政策的成立那資本額34億也因為去年我們國廠化的政策改變他們賠了多少?賠了64億"},{"start":481.793,"end":508.378,"text":"64億 所以我們統購的方式 風險都在於台積電身上那麼整個開發商他們的風險是又低又賺保所以本席要請教本席要請教 我知道你也有一些看法但是本席首先要請教也就是說如果你還在我們的商業界你是中鋼的董事長 你會投資嗎你會投資嗎"},{"start":511.667,"end":530.595,"text":"如果這公司是我的我一定投資你一定投資你一定投資當然那為什麼工會的抗議會這麼大呢工會是員工嘛員工不一定懂得董事會的決策那這個更糟糕喔一個公司如果沒有員工他就沒有董事會了對不對"},{"start":531.935,"end":536.218,"text":"不是他不知道而且是他被前車之鑑嚇到了34億最後賠了64億員工當然緊張啊我想這是溝通的問題溝通的問題那是不是你們溝通有問題如果他溝通順暢的話那我相信公衛也會支持"},{"start":552.389,"end":565.017,"text":"好 那你歸咎在他們的抗議是溝通本席希望能夠真正了解他的狀況是如何但是本席就要請問對於整個台積電你的損益跟風險的評估你認為呢我認為是可行啊"},{"start":572.133,"end":586.066,"text":"你認為是可行所以如果你還在商界你是中鋼的董事長你也會投資但是我們有前車之鑒也就是新達海基人工很緊張沒有什麼一樣的標準就都一樣了對不對他會嚇一跳啊因為你的政策隨時可以轉彎啊"},{"start":592.071,"end":612.714,"text":"就因為政策的轉彎從34億的資本額竟然去年因為這個政策轉彎而賠了這個64億我們就專家他們評估的這個結果專家評估為什麼他會虧那麼多基本上是學習曲線能力不足"},{"start":613.855,"end":621.02,"text":"那這個更離譜 政府的政策改變學習曲線又不足那當然虧損連連 當然我們員工會很緊張啊所以就是說 其實他要做這個"},{"start":628.906,"end":646.904,"text":"剛才講那個風電的部分那個地方水下基礎那個是新的東西新的東西其實坦白講我不知道當初為什麼會請中方做這個事情但是就我現在來看你今天講出這個論點就是我還蠻敬佩你的"},{"start":650.816,"end":677.982,"text":"沒有說政府要我們的公司做什麼我們一定要做學習取信衛族的時候讓我們的員工賠了這麼多錢這是政府對不起中鋼啊對不對我認為應該是中鋼的中鋼的經營者要自己要深刻的所以你現在是部長中鋼的經營者必須要去好好的省思這是部長您現在的因為您也是督導者我們也希望台自電的這個事件"},{"start":679.522,"end":706.267,"text":"所以台式電這個我就跟他講嘛你可以推出你可以推出當然可以推出當然可以推出隨時都可以推出好謝謝你要由金油溝通最後一個議題我給你喔也就是光電建制的問題我們一再認為太陽人2025年要20幾個萬但是到目前為止已經在王美樺部長的時候她說跳票了我非常的敬佩她跳票"},{"start":706.667,"end":735.316,"text":"他承認然後延到2026年但是我們基於這個統計報導2024年你總共才14.22GW你沒有達到還是再度跳票沒有達到17GW而且據報導今年我們的量是有史以來四年以來最低所以本席要請教部長你要怎麼因應原因到底是什麼你的進度還會再跳票嗎是不是會影響本席非常關心的"},{"start":736.016,"end":739.44,"text":"我們的遠大目標2030年我們要達到燃氣五成再生能源三成每兩成因為本席非常的關心每兩成務必一定要這個達到請教因應方案"},{"start":753.018,"end":773.785,"text":"我們現在一直都在討論這個方案包括行政院也好 包括總統府也好我想這個是國家重大的事情蘇部長你這樣一直討論 然後你就一直跳票啊2026年你17GW還是沒達到啊 14.22啊那今年 今年據報導又是4年來最低的建制啊"},{"start":774.685,"end":800.045,"text":"那會不會再跳票 會不會我們為了要防止再度跳票我們會反省過去為什麼造成跳票 是然後來改善 是然後來追上我們應該要有的這個進度 是這個我們目前正在做好 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請次長好 請陳次長"},{"start":13.21,"end":38.396,"text":"市長好 我之前曾經在這個委員會有關心過區間測速的問題當時 因為今天部長沒有來 那個時候部長完全就往外推啦 推工作啦他說區間測速跟交通部無關 那個要問警政署或者是問各地方政府那當時我有 那應該是十月份的時候 我有請他還是研究一下到底區間測速有沒有用"},{"start":40.541,"end":69.597,"text":"結果我現在看到新聞我們1月15號台64台65剛好就是在我的選區板橋往中和往新莊兩段都要裝區間測速然後一段一段是速限70公里然後另外一個是80公里所以交通部說跟區間測速完全沒關係那請問一下我請教一下次長台64台65是地方政府管還是交通部公路總局管"},{"start":71.521,"end":80.18,"text":"是我們公務總局的是公務總局嘛對啊那為什麼講到區間測速馬上就推給地方政府拜託交通部有點擔當好不好"},{"start":81.428,"end":103.617,"text":"而且我們可以上次我們也發文請交通部說針對區間測數做一個全國性的通盤檢討結果你看回給我們的文跟部長講的一樣說交通違規執法及取締是屬於警政機關權責原人已由內政部警政署研議檢討這個區間測數跟你們交通部一點關係都沒有"},{"start":108.1,"end":131.169,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下 剛才講的那些道路是道路的主管機關是公務局沒有錯但是在上面要設置相關的這個執法器材的話當然啦 但是規劃面嘛 我舉兩個例子啦第一個例子是 之前區間廁所一開始推出來的時候 它沒有標準嘛後來全面下架 你知道這個事嗎"},{"start":132.523,"end":154.177,"text":"在2020年的時候知道這事嗎我了解然後後來是哪一個單位邀集標準局警政署請他們一起來討論出一個標準出來你知道是哪個單位嗎就是你們交通部嘛是不是是不是你交通部是當時的道安委員會那道安委員會是難道是內政部管的嗎是不是你交通部"},{"start":156.809,"end":184.327,"text":"是不是你們交通部嗎 這個你回答不出來喔道安委員會是不是交通部你回答不出來喔我正在回答啦 是不是是我們交通部那後來2021年的時候當時區間撤出的鏡頭被認為是用海康威視的然後交通部長林佳龍跳出來講說如果是交通部有補助的或是交通部可以管的全面都下架有沒有這件事情有吧"},{"start":185.52,"end":204.619,"text":"像委員是有的但是那是整體的國家對於那個對所以我現在不是就叫你整體去整體去檢討嗎那今天大家為什麼對於區間測數有疑慮第一個就是我非常好奇啊為什麼現在要在台64台65又要設區間測數原因是什麼原因是什麼"},{"start":209.048,"end":232.38,"text":"先簡單跟委員說明一下原則上區間測速的一個 剛才委員特別提到它的成效據我們了解它是有對交通安全是有一定的有確定嗎可是我有看到一些研究它是指出說區間測速的地方車禍事故也有增加 為什麼因為車子就跟前方沒有保持安全距離"},{"start":233.513,"end":254.591,"text":"的狀況變多的一種合理的解釋是說因為大家都一直要去看那個儀表板有沒有超速一直把注意力放在儀表板上面忽略了跟前方車子的距離這也是會產生的狀況而且你們區間測速其實他是算一個平均值嘛不是嗎就是用時間除以距離是不是"},{"start":257.27,"end":270.107,"text":"用時間數據然後算一個平均速限嘛如果超過那個平均速限的話就要開罰那你怎麼知道在那段時間裡面他會不會是忽然間飆很快超速然後到快要到那個終點的時候呢又降速"},{"start":271.67,"end":295.575,"text":"你沒有辦法去避免這樣的狀況啊我想委員提到的那些都是執行商執行面的因為今天部長沒有來啦我也不想為難你啦我只是點出一個問題就是交通部作為一個全國最高的交通主管機關當我們跟你問到區間撤訴的時候你可以推給警政署可以推給地方政府可以一副跟自己都無關的樣子"},{"start":297.615,"end":323.488,"text":"我這種態度我沒辦法接受所以是不是可以請你因為我們那時候發文請你們做一個通盤檢討你至少去邀集警政署你們交通部邀集警政署就跟之前一樣訂定標準的時候邀請警政署或者是各地方政府做一個檢討如果區間政府這麼好的話為什麼各團體反彈這麼激烈一定有他的問題在所以是不是可以請交通部做這件事情"},{"start":326.202,"end":352.608,"text":"這個來邀請相關單位就這個區間撤訴的如何讓他做得更加有助於交通安全這個我們可以來你可以做這個10月份的時候當時的陳世凱部長說他可以來做但是不關他的事但是他可以額外來做這個事啊那現在次長你認不認為這個責任其實在你們交通部規劃面然後甚至於通盤檢討面如果不是的話為什麼之前都是你們交通部出來講"},{"start":354.454,"end":382.134,"text":"我想跟委員報告就是有關交通安全的一個確保的這樣的一件事情其實是各部會或者是各單位都應該可以來做的所以剛才委員特別提到就是說邀請相關單位來就現在區間測速他是不是對交通安全上有所注意或者是在執法設置上可以有什麼樣的一個更精進的一個做法這我們交通部基於交通安全可以來做另外就針對我剛剛講的兩條"},{"start":384.241,"end":413.562,"text":"台六四台六五的部分因為1月15號就要上路了請你補一個報告給我好不好到底為什麼要在這個我就請公路局送一份報告給委員啦到底為什麼要在這邊去裝那個區間測速你有評估過嗎裝了以後一定會比較安全嗎他們一定有相關以前實施過的一個經驗啦我想他們在這個報告裡頭來做說明你認為說之前實施之後會比較安全的依據是什麼過去可能會發生事故原因是什麼"},{"start":415.575,"end":437.656,"text":"台六四台六五過去發生事故原因是什麼讓你們必須要在那邊裝區間測速原因是什麼我們再給委員一個報告你先回答我就好了嘛原則上應該就是說還是有超速的一個所以你認為超速是造成事故最大的原因因為還是有一些各事故有一些原因的一個分析有嗎有好那你補一個報給我我們再給委員一個報告好謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}