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謝謝各黨團的幹部都已經到了我們現在就開始進行"},{"start":2243.683,"end":2255.327,"text":"先處理一下吧,在直播著要這樣嗎?我沒有什麼意見謝謝各位新聞記者,謝謝大家,謝謝市長院長未睡便院長殺手,走出去"},{"start":2277.789,"end":2296.393,"text":"我是院長二歲沒有錯,我是林委員總召院長各位委員同仁,今天好不容易因為近半年來小受傷第一次站在備訓台上,上面來執行本身在這裡主要談幾個問題,最主要談程序問題"},{"start":2300.216,"end":2308.472,"text":"那我為什麼要談程序問題呢我們沒有程序正義就沒有實質正義這個絕對的老同就在這個會議室"},{"start":2313.539,"end":2334.054,"text":"檢罷法加一在這個非日舉行在這個非日舉行的時候,國民黨把這門關起來,外面門關起來,然後在這裡開會沒有民進黨參加,那雖然程式上好像合法,程式上看起來合法但是事實上是一個非法,為什麼呢?"},{"start":2335.1,"end":2362.299,"text":"因為沒有讓民進黨參加,而且你們用強制的手段讓我們不能進來用強制的手段讓我們不能進來,然後就送出委員會,然後就出委員會出委員會以後,當然後來我們說我發言給你,說我們有意見他說有意見你再協商,那後來協商的時候大家不歡迎我和善"},{"start":2365.049,"end":2381.943,"text":"那我們同時在任康以前也詢問給你,說這個有問題然後也詢問給醫事處,也給內政委員會內政委員會有五六四要等,五六個林貴卿是上到"},{"start":2383.297,"end":2409.543,"text":"內政委會,給內政委會招委,說這程序有問題,假如這程序可以的話那以後我們業會你就把民進黨,關起來不讓民進黨來就好,法案就三無通過嘛又好像棒球比賽,第二名的把第一名綁架起來,他就比賽他就第一名了,院長這個可以嗎?全世界就,絕對說不通的啦,絕對說不通的,分析不要講話"},{"start":2411.961,"end":2432.166,"text":"你可以用表情表示憤怒,但是不要講話,好不好這哪一通,一來就可以關門了,這是第一點所以我向你抗議,我連日行了很多文言給你向你抗議,所以我說這有理,你說沒有關係"},{"start":2433.817,"end":2459.739,"text":"或者說你就習近平回來,我們就把你排上這個就在蔡偉強的時候,未來蔡偉強排在第一岸,那你講你說你決定接受結果呢,沒有排沒有排,這次習近平就不見了完整那時候他覺得他的審查報告已經出去了他就尊爍,尊爍尊爍沒關係然後"},{"start":2462.591,"end":2468.706,"text":"1月2號、1月3號、1月4號我一直新聞給你包括這個問題有關於這種"},{"start":2473.499,"end":2495.787,"text":"那種程序不正義這個問題 大家好好談一下至少我要結論今天我們那個周恩來怎麼沒有來周秘書長坐在那裡周秘書長這個可以嗎你的書寫不可以 結果你作為是可以我要問我們的藝術處處長高百強這樣可不可以問說這個"},{"start":2505.392,"end":2528.63,"text":"這兩個委員會的主意這樣可以嗎?我相信我相信經常一定會展開調查的我講公務人員法嘛彈劾以後我看退休金也會不見了而且還會有薪責我講公務人員法這個是很嚴肅的事情我在這裡言明在先"},{"start":2529.81,"end":2557.119,"text":"那我不希望就是說韓院長你好不容易當院長以後我們對你很大期待我們希望就是說就建立一個新的國會在你2月1號到3月的時候你跑到議長後面因為當天是我主持嘛我們兩個在院長室裡面聊了很多我有寫一篇臉書我還跟你講說羅宇雄啊"},{"start":2559.688,"end":2572.211,"text":"現在大家要看人家的腦氣,像你的臨床術學不成,我們要這樣去看,比較正經的這是恢復之言啦,我相信你也聽到了,我有寫在臨床上面那在越南31年來,剛才我進來的時候,沒去訪問我,說你還要罵名韓國瑜嗎?"},{"start":2583.083,"end":2605.749,"text":"我是當然罷免啦,民事不可違也要罷免啦,沒什麼麻煩罷免,這代表一個立場問題這是民主基金黨的價值和立場我要說台灣民主能夠往前走很可貴是什麼,很可貴就是說1993年我到立法院以後到2016年總共22年的時間"},{"start":2608.615,"end":2614.098,"text":"我在立法院呈交所有的表決不管委員會 程序委員會 藍綠議員會 僑會一般敗不可以贏到現在為止 很多人說柯總統你引導了民進黨一點用處都沒有表決在立法院表決不可以贏"},{"start":2628.953,"end":2657.599,"text":"這個阿摩事實我們就知道我們51席沒有過半當然一定會輸的嘛但是輸的時候要贏得什麼贏得弄數 贏得民心這是很重要的一個原則所以在22年來在立法院裡面我們從來沒有贏過但是我們堅持一個民主的程序堅持民主要往前走少數一定服從多數"},{"start":2658.991,"end":2683.992,"text":"包括蘇的耍,包括上禮拜前幾天我們為了朝夕協商包括副委員總召、黃文維委員以及林世民委員包括民眾黨我們都在為了建立立環的文化我希望不要再有過去那種的"},{"start":2685.643,"end":2703.095,"text":"沒有人敢做的事情,馬丁凡站你起來,然後點名表決,然後衝突把你丟下來,這都是危險的事情,這一定要結機,不應該再有了。過去,那次院長從劉昌一講,大家都有協商的,吳院長曾經為一個法案協商22次,但一個法案,"},{"start":2713.41,"end":2737.205,"text":"就刑法的扣納 扣納摸索 私民安全法也曾經為了一個法案 刑上二三次都有在場的 失業的管理法 有關永遠自由化的問題這是立法案 所有人都一直成長大家和學生都辯論了不是只有表決而已只有表決而已的話 再加以暗表依據小學生都會所以"},{"start":2742.283,"end":2759.688,"text":"從劉昌憶院長到王院長,王院長當然他是最徹底來進行的院長是喬爾丁萊葉環組織法第三條寫很清楚,院長必須行政忠義院長不能有黨職"},{"start":2766.184,"end":2794.068,"text":"所以韓院長你不可能是中常委吧但是你可以助選你不可能黨職就好了你不可能兼黨主席也不可能中常委這是院長唯一的條件所以助選是可以但是你是國民黨黨員當然所有的作為協商你會比較傾向幫助國民黨這有如何後悔但是那個線要踩得很死"},{"start":2796.375,"end":2822.808,"text":"不行就不行所以今天我在這裡講就是說後來包括蘇嘉嫻院長包括游區副院長至少會把這程序走完有西洋結論才有大家簽名就是說要幾個發言哪幾條條文密西表決要幾個人發言這樣才如果有效率"},{"start":2824.372,"end":2848.824,"text":"至於沒有詳情結論,當然也要說沒有詳情結論要簽一個,那就要依次程序處理什麼叫依次程序處理呢?就是沒有詳情結論的話,那每一個人大於討論都可以發言每一個人主條的討論都可以發言換言之就是說,我們假如沒有詳情結論的話,那警察人士條例大於討論,民進黨五十一個都可以發言"},{"start":2849.878,"end":2870.091,"text":"每一個條文我們可以講五十一個都可以講過去X法的時候當初X法當然我們表決都會輸但是呢,馬英九說可以全案表決,不可以除掉表決我反對"},{"start":2871.772,"end":2897.342,"text":"我說既然可以主張表決,為什麼不能主張表決呢所以我告訴王金平院長以及林義士政客執行長我說這個很簡單一個表決各自表述我們主張表決,你們主張表決所以一個表決各自表述一中就可以各表為什麼一個表決不能各自表述這是很重要的道理"},{"start":2898.925,"end":2924.013,"text":"然後今天我們期待中產生一個新的院長看我過去三十年來這個地方的期待發生很大的落差市民都是非常感傷的就說怎麼國會走到這裡來為什麼何以置之為什麼兩世的中央表演都會這樣反正打架,再打下去會出人命的"},{"start":2925.31,"end":2938.778,"text":"所以那天我一直在兩個禮拜以內在議場方面包括跟副委員長 包括跟國防委等等所有人講說我們醫療都不要受打我們醫療都不要做專業主義台"},{"start":2940.514,"end":2960.379,"text":"我會重塑御友園過去的文化打結束就算了,該實現就實現該實現就實現就是這樣,還沒好,這是引言而已後面有很重大的題目我只是覺得今天稍微想大家好好講一下所以今天"},{"start":2962.455,"end":2977.806,"text":"因為我要跟你講,你在討反自己說這可能你最後一次指揮朝廷的人,我不敢這樣講啦。反正我總是罵你說你是歷史罪人,你也說歷史罪人來了,我說沒有,你也可以變成歷史為人。"},{"start":2980.107,"end":2997.555,"text":"這個台灣自己這種幽默就是一個政治人物很重要最高超的境界台灣自己薄金以燦我非常了解你的心情,而且你的修養這一點我是肯定的我今天講了這麼多就是說我為什麼敢講這些話呢?"},{"start":3004.042,"end":3011.224,"text":"因為大家知道,我想周恩藍秘書長也知道,1999年1月的時候,國會無法公布了什麼叫國會無法?就是立委員組織法、立委員各委員組織法、政幫直接行事法、議事規則以及立委員行為法"},{"start":3026.596,"end":3050.067,"text":"所以才有國會的無法,國會無法就有國會圖書館等等那為什麼要有國會無法?因為1993年我們進來的時候,院長我們那時候進來的時候你當然不會忘記有個場景每次樓上院院長主席宴會的時候公共竊盡一失誤,從開始就晨曦花園大家全部上台排隊"},{"start":3051.243,"end":3065.153,"text":"登記排得很長每一個人都排隊那時候民進黨都排隊去程序發言有時候台商一直講說各位偉大政治家程序沒有問題啊請不要程序不要亂發言"},{"start":3067.165,"end":3084.767,"text":"他的國語是台南國語,請陳水扁隨便發言,那種場景大家都走過,所以後來朝野鄉才轉成一個就是說,大家也要發言"},{"start":3087.13,"end":3096.636,"text":"可是從一個國事論壇,才有國事論壇來演那時候因為沒有國會無法,越南的開會和民間團體開會一樣為什麼?一個人可以擋住全部,一個人就可以擋住整個議會所以以前江炳坤副院長說,他是東大博士"},{"start":3112.711,"end":3136.5,"text":"他以前一直跟我講說這個東西啊 利息消息都有問題大家都感覺立法牛步化 為什麼立法牛步化因為開始的時候一個人 經營大於討論的時候一個人可以擋住節目 他說清點人數一清點人數的時候 人已經不夠 就散會了那時候 那天在某些採訪的時候"},{"start":3141.277,"end":3143.632,"text":"能不能不在能不过"},{"start":3144.898,"end":3168.379,"text":"那你就停下來這個我都知道停下來然後能夠說說民進黨少四個說因為民進黨少四個所以不能說我們會贏不可能贏的因為主席是你你一定會等到暫停等到國民黨都叫回來再表決所以這個遊戲大家都知道所以發生新年新年是以後一個人黨中整個議會"},{"start":3174.067,"end":3192.213,"text":"後來才有直接申訴法,國會委員會直接申訴法直接申訴法就是說有超過28條,超過行政專章因為學生以後就有範圍人數要多少那有個結論,這樣才能夠把整個意識往前推"},{"start":3197.737,"end":3212.857,"text":"也可以說你黨兵去朝野鄉簽下了我不是黨兵的話我可以連署16個人買火車票同意再來他們有7個人被人死了三黨黨兵講好就好就不可抵抗"},{"start":3214.498,"end":3235.334,"text":"假如不是黨編的委員,他也可以說不行,在年九十六個中來所以另外一個執行法是大家設計的非常清楚而且一九九三年的時候,一月的時候這個執行法一直沒有改,只有小吳的修正"},{"start":3236.135,"end":3251.083,"text":"那今天我要談的就是說,我們在直接審查包括第33條,包括我也,等我來立完做國情報告,當初寫的坦白講都有違憲之疑,待會再說明給你聽。那今天我要談的就是說,要把程序性的問題先講好,其實今天關鍵是什麼?這個關鍵就是說,國民黨排了富裕案,明天就要表決。"},{"start":3266.138,"end":3294.055,"text":"那我跟你講說其實大家可以好好談哪一天要因為這個反應程序最後一天一定是16號嘛我們不可能違憲到16號還不讓他處理那把它破壞掉違憲變成我們要背我們不可能幹這種事情變成你民進黨以後抬不起頭來你們就會違憲嘛是不是這樣所以一定會如期不管怎麼樣16號一定要完成"},{"start":3295.418,"end":3309.636,"text":"這個我剛剛還去抓我們不可能一奔到去違憲然後永遠民黨永遠被攻擊那往回我在議員31年來我一直遵守法律遵守憲法"},{"start":3310.857,"end":3339.855,"text":"所以這個也有很重要的觀念我問分區委員其實大家可以我聽他早上四點半打電話給我他說今天要怎麼處理下雨我說讓我們老兄弟講的都直白話大家好好談一定什麼事情都沒有包括我剛剛講的包括會議案也是一樣一定是如期完成但是我們今天要談的是有五個事情一定要談"},{"start":3341.072,"end":3359.961,"text":"我說這個五個事情一定可以談不是不可以談第一個比較重要這個玩意什麼時候結什麼時候要休會韓院長和江副院長一定要到美國去還有我們一堆人要去美國而且是總統指派的"},{"start":3360.888,"end":3381.405,"text":"那我們一定要到10天後一定要結束,這大家要思考只要說美國只有韓院長去,其他人江委員不去,其他人不去的話21號也可以這大家來講都沒有,這都會講的所以這時間最重要第二個,復議案,復議案一定會如期處理"},{"start":3383.223,"end":3407.575,"text":"一定保證如期處理甚至可以提前一兩天才處理總運算要不要處理?前瞻運算要不要處理?台電的這一家運算一千億要不要處理?這都是民生的嘛是不是這樣另外最後一個我說會員選辦法加一要不要處理?"},{"start":3409.284,"end":3430.76,"text":"要處理我們都提早簽給你們提早表決沒有關係反正這個以後要實踐再去實踐嘛我說不要說請幫我加一加二都可以加三都可以所以我們講你這五個問題我們當然好好想好好協商好合而共那簽名節約專訴"},{"start":3433.594,"end":3451.767,"text":"尤其在一百二十幾年的党鞭,我從來用口頭承諾就算數了訪問簽名我從來沒有簽名就發掉的紀錄你去問過去的訪問院長,我從來沒有說蔡英雄簽名以後就跑去把他發掉"},{"start":3453.07,"end":3472.965,"text":"實在這樣常常搞這一套,黃國昌常常搞這一套,法廷,國安黨也常常搞這一套我連口頭表述都是酸素的,也不必錄音所以今天我在這個地方很誠懇的講說,為什麼我今天要好好做程序化"},{"start":3474.318,"end":3495.123,"text":"縱使整個立法院是大家的立法院,是人民的立法院不是韓院長一個人的武林,也不是國民黨一個人的武林,也不是誰黃國昌一個人的武林現在整個國民黨我們都很清楚,他除了沒有這幾個"},{"start":3496.806,"end":3520.189,"text":"民眾黨根本不可能執政嘛柯文哲一審只要判十年以上連選罷法他都不能參選了不想選什麼都不能選國民黨他擺明很清楚嘛大法官事件釋出來他也不承認所有違反亂紀他都認為應該的全部講謊話農民這些應該是人民的期待"},{"start":3521.759,"end":3545.976,"text":"難道你認為台灣的老百姓不是白癡嗎?看不懂立法院在做什麼現在整個國家大家都擔心連百民共產黨的百民也不可能執政也不想執政啊那當然為什麼?因為這國家教育了中國嘛就是大家很清楚所以現在是一個國家深入存活的關鍵就在這幾天"},{"start":3549.13,"end":3573.424,"text":"這老百姓都看得懂所以老百姓看得懂當然我這兩天講過一句話嘛會有罷免,選舉有選舉就有罷免嘛我們戴季武漢天天被國民黨勞令凌遲,因為黃國昌凌遲因為黃國昌亂罵,弄人起來,還陪笑臉為什麼?我們總希望這個很重要的這個很重要的所以說"},{"start":3579.468,"end":3585.553,"text":"沒有關係不要吵等一下你可以講我打補了時間我還要坐在這裡所以我今天要講的就是說我們感觸非常深刻當然我們想罷免但是民眾聲音更大民意已經起來了"},{"start":3599.844,"end":3611.691,"text":"我昨天和今天都講,美書上都寫過,包括胡適雅委員也講過,罷免不是一個人可以主導,不是我柯建民可以主導,也不是一個黨可以主導的。同時,罷免也不是一個黨可以主導的。"},{"start":3622.213,"end":3649.855,"text":"沒有一個人可以出黨也沒有一個人可以出黨因為都在民意都在民意讓民意來解決所以希望就是說在歲末立法院快要結束的時候我們也在這裡一年了應該大家做一個冷靜的總檢討那未來立法院又何去而從我希望今天整個曹雷祥院長你不要為了節省時間我們提了這麼多要請你協商的"},{"start":3652.369,"end":3672.36,"text":"包括總預算等等,包括今天這個請問也可以不談,有關要罷免你的問題也可以不談。但是至少要談一談,對於違法公務員後續他們難道不會怕嗎?以後還可以這樣嗎?這個東西還是實際的,是不是這樣?那為什麼我們連連提了?"},{"start":3678.354,"end":3699.865,"text":"從去年12月提到去年1月2號3號4號我們所提的要求你協商拜託你協商了全部不見今天只有一個題目就是護理案我跟護理員講過一句話假如你今天什麼都不談等一下一風而散排這個會議室就相當的惡意我為什麼要站在這裡"},{"start":3701.107,"end":3729.301,"text":"因為每一黨只有一個麥克風嘛那你沒有辦法壓下一個講話嘛所以我故意再處理一台再換一台講話假如是這樣的惡意的話待會我們的人還是會在誠意上面包括誠意問題上面做發言請韓院長你要包容這是我們一定要談清楚我跟副理講一句話小虎你今天沒有跟我們好好談"},{"start":3730.495,"end":3740.315,"text":"你副議案走得下去的話你自己試看看,明天你走得下去嗎?以後的副議案你走得下去嗎?我說我不是"},{"start":3743.72,"end":3766.426,"text":"我是在講實話,我是在講實話,因為大家不講好當然我們衝突底下,慈平,蘇曉潤藝術者不打,反而壞事情我不是在威脅黃毓民委員,你聽起來有點刺耳,但是你要聽我的內容大家好好講,一定沒問題,大家要揮揮手,大家都想揮揮手"},{"start":3773.568,"end":3784.495,"text":"會發展到什麼地方去?沒有一個人可以預料的謝謝柯總召的程序發言特別報告程序發言了32分鐘扣掉前面的走路大概"},{"start":3796.209,"end":3822.221,"text":"你一個程序發言大概已經25分鐘了好不好,我想以您表達非常,我們還是希望最資深的柯建民委員都是一言九鼎一言九鼎,講話對我們來講說,對對,我還是希望你你最資深的委員希望你一言九鼎,可是如果因為我們今天這個案子齁,是討論憲法輸送法,如果"},{"start":3823.524,"end":3842.317,"text":"偏離題目太多慢慢變成九言一鼎那就不好了總的來說我是良心的建議好不好我還是只要你講話我們都是尊重的因為立法院最資深就是你全立法院最資深就是柯建民委員全台灣最會開會就是我們周恩來秘書長大家都是公認的我們希望你講話還是一樣一言九鼎"},{"start":3842.577,"end":3854.548,"text":"好不好 謝謝那各位黨編我們今天談憲法訴訟法上次已經有非常透徹的討論但是民進黨團又提出希望再度協商所以召集各位黨團幹部來坐在這裡我們來繼續來進行憲法訴訟法復議案那請那個萊文的民進黨團請表達意見好嗎好 蔡 蔡署長請"},{"start":3867.071,"end":3884.386,"text":"國民黨團請準備好 謝謝院長院長一度要說我們柯總召會一言九鼎我想在這個前提之下柯總召講得很清楚他認為說我們大概立法院我們在處理復議案當然是要有復議案的一個程序的一個進行"},{"start":3885.026,"end":3892.828,"text":"那這個程序很重要的就是說他必須要有一個全院委員會那全院委員會要邀請行政院長列席然後我們應該要分頭去報告那這個報告是各個政黨對於復議案的內容那這一次就是我們憲法訴訟法大家會有針對這個條文會有意見那這個條文你怎麼可以說這個條文跟行政院沒有關係不是這樣的"},{"start":3910.652,"end":3933.45,"text":"因為憲法訴訟法涉及到的就是我們要申請釋憲我們要去申請這個憲法法庭針對我們認為有違憲的事宜我們有要提出釋憲的一個權利那這個權利本身行政院也是一個很重要的一個機關所以這個機關跟他有關那尤其這個憲法訴訟法涉及到的又不只是機關"},{"start":3934.631,"end":3957.437,"text":"他更重要的是人民要申請釋憲每一個人他的司法救濟的最終救濟權就是要靠憲法法庭那這個憲法訴訟法未來他這樣一旦讓他上路讓他生效之後他必須要有十個大法官才能召開要有九個大法官才能申請違憲這件事情對於人民的司法的救濟權影響太大"},{"start":3959.418,"end":3963.921,"text":"所以行政院秉持著這個理由他提出復議當然行政院長基於他憲法的職權基於他對於人民有這樣的司法救濟權不應該被法律被立法權把司法救濟權把他"},{"start":3975.787,"end":3993.075,"text":"把他傷害把他侵害所以基於這樣的理由行政院長當然要來立法院報告啊那我們過去在上一次協商的時候我有跟院長報告過在過去唯一有一次沒有邀請行政院長來立法院報告那就是在2013年會計法99之一"},{"start":3996.737,"end":4024.98,"text":"會計法99之一當年是因為立法過程可能在立法的一個瑕疵結果少了一個字一個教 教師的教少了這一個字咧讓當時的大學教授他們因為研究案然後在做這個財務的一個會計的申報的時候有瑕疵然後會被網羅入罪當年也包括柯文哲柯文哲在還在台大醫院服務的時候他也包括他也有陷入這樣的狀況"},{"start":4026.081,"end":4046.567,"text":"那但是那一次的會計法修法結果就把那個叫這個字遺漏掉了那遺漏掉了當然就會有很多人會受到影響啊所以當時馬英九總統他也對外表達歉意然後行政院用最快的速度提出復議那立法院也在朝野有充分共識之下那就沒有再邀請行政院長來"},{"start":4048.067,"end":4058.928,"text":"來立法院來報告那就直接就直接就處理復一案了所以那是那個時空背景但是那個時空背景至少有一個很大的原則就是朝野對於這個復一案有共識"},{"start":4061.462,"end":4083.412,"text":"那很明顯的我們現在民進黨我們對於這個限訴法的復議案我們的立場看起來跟國民黨跟民眾黨立場不一樣所以朝野沒有共識那既然朝野沒有共識的話我覺得院長你還是要履行整個程序的一個完備程序的完整然後讓行政院院長可以來立法院報告"},{"start":4084.332,"end":4091.616,"text":"然後讓我們每個人透過跟行政院長我們透過質詢的內容把我們認為我們對於會計法這一次復議案以及會計法上路後會對人民的這個訴訟權的傷害我們總是能通過這樣的一個這個詢答的過程再次表達我們的立場那這個詢答的人數我想我們可以朝野協商可以溝通"},{"start":4109.545,"end":4125.656,"text":"大家在溝通說好我們為了要卡在15天內一定要處理復議案那如果卡在15天內的話最後一天大概是1月16號所以我想我們可以在下個禮拜我們可以召開全院委員會我們也可以再用加開院會的方式然後我們來排這樣的一個把議程把它完備然後讓我們每個人都可以充分發言那如果院長覺得會不會程序上又被發言去卡住了那我們剛剛柯總召也說啊"},{"start":4140.025,"end":4164.678,"text":"他說他用他的人格保證他一定會讓整個復議案會讓他處理所以我們可以控制發言的人數就像我們之前在處理幾個法案的時候上禮拜五我們在處理法案的時候不管是551或者甚至條文的時候只剩下111但是那都是在朝野共識之下怎樣把時間控制在當天內可以處理法案"},{"start":4165.698,"end":4180.532,"text":"可以完整可以處理法案所以我覺得院長我們如果在秉持著這樣的一個精神那大家同意之下下個禮拜讓行政院長來列席讓我們可以質詢然後再用最快的時間安排最後復議案的表決那"},{"start":4182.216,"end":4204.281,"text":"就像我們總召說的如果表決民進黨還是輸了那我們自己再尋求之後的救濟途徑那就變我們自己黨團的後續的決策但是至少立法院我們展現的就是說我們對於程序應該怎麼走這件事情是有堅持的那過去有太多的復議案的前例在前面那唯一一個沒有邀請"},{"start":4206.536,"end":4223.9,"text":"行政院長還報告的就是只有那一個狀況那一個狀況是朝野有共識朝野對於復議案的內容有共識那我們今天是沒有共識的好不好 院長我們再當還是希望可以照程序來進行謝謝蔡書記長發言請國民黨團發言台灣民眾黨請準備好 謝謝院長首先我要對蔡宇宜書記長針對說要不要邀請行政院長來這一點那我想剛才柯總早講很清楚"},{"start":4235.973,"end":4256.799,"text":"程序正义我们一定要遵守今天为什么我们不邀请我们认为不用邀请行政院长来这完全依照我们立法院职权行使法第33条的规定这是依法有据的那我们认为行政院长他今天也表达在该记者会表达非常清楚他的对整个复议案他的看法"},{"start":4257.864,"end":4283.429,"text":"那在现在这个时期就现在我们的总预算很迫在眉睫要省的这个阶段是不是我们在复议案要花那么多的时间我想我们各党真的要慎重的思考如果说我们还在拖拖到最后一天16号然后21号我们就要这个休会了你再拖我们总预算真的省不完"},{"start":4284.653,"end":4305.745,"text":"我想三档对于总预算赶快在这个会期就尽数把它就在休会前把它三度通过这也是全国民众因应期期盼的所以我们搞不清楚为什么民进党一直坚持要在16号这有什么意义呢我们真的搞不清楚所以我其实我是觉得说"},{"start":4306.909,"end":4328.579,"text":"柯总召在上次院长我们在这个院会的后面那个小协商室的时候他就提到啊他说行政院长不用来报告他他没问题他有做这样的承诺所以今天又讲说行政院长该预讲一定要请行政院长来我想程序上是没有问题的那"},{"start":4331.147,"end":4339.826,"text":"這個院長也已經記者會講那麼清楚了所以我覺得我們整個不要請來不要請他來絕對站得住腳啊這第一點第二點哦"},{"start":4341.377,"end":4364.549,"text":"我想我們這個整個在復議的程序裡面就說如果要找那是不是我們希望就在明天盡速來處理明天盡速來處理那我們希望民進黨這個一言九鼎就讓整個復議案我們就依照相關的規定我們來做這個表決碼所以剛才聽到你們又恐慌說什麼不去試試看你們如果這樣做不去試試看"},{"start":4367.771,"end":4395.951,"text":"这种恐吓的你一开始就讲说这个程序正义很重要实质正义很重要我们照程序走你又恐吓我们这个真的无息中我们在之前还是怎么样听到在资深的前辈一下子讲这样子一下子讲那样子前后都都不起来了所以我觉得说如果真的要让立法院往前走的话让意识能够和谐的话大家就"},{"start":4397.233,"end":4405.631,"text":"柯總常常講叫不來啊就不要再佔主席台了嘛不要再破壞整個投票的程序了嘛大家叫不來嘛"},{"start":4407.979,"end":4431.206,"text":"既然程序的规定那么清楚我们就请这个议事处安排整个投票的流程让我们尽速让复议案把它完成然后未来我们对于我们的总预算我们赶快的来把总预算省完因为我们剩下下个礼拜的时间而已我们还要二轮的这个这个二轮的协商我们党团的协商那我预计时程"},{"start":4431.986,"end":4452.961,"text":"一定要在下个礼拜二以前把这个二轮的那个党团的提案处理完毕才会会诊然后开始我们就要一系列的挑灯夜山进行党团的协商啊这协商完毕我们最多只能剩几天可以表决只有下下礼拜一跟二这整个时程非常的紧凑"},{"start":4454.002,"end":4471.811,"text":"所以你要到16號16號才處理附議案那我們總計算怎麼審得完所以我們建議就是明天明天就來處理以上謝謝院長謝謝林市民署長表達的意見接下來請台灣民眾黨團請吳春城幹事長請表達意見好吳春城那個幹事長請發言"},{"start":4486.125,"end":4491.628,"text":"剛才我們柯總召講到要重塑國會的文化不要打架"},{"start":4501.994,"end":4526.914,"text":"昨天我也陪韓院長接待日本的台橋的聯合會總會很多人都在反應 其實他們講其實也給院長有一點不太有面子因為他們說他們真的是在海外看他們都很熱愛台灣但是真的會覺得每天看到國會"},{"start":4528.464,"end":4553.252,"text":"在打架 真的讓他們在國外感到很丟臉我們的國家 我們的祖國怎麼是這樣子所以非常呼應剛才柯總召所提的的確是應該重塑我們的國外文化就是大家能夠和諧像撞促法在通過的時候"},{"start":4553.732,"end":4566.998,"text":"三檔那個畫面如果能跟我回應都是說三檔大合影然後大家一起喔看到了真是很感動的說很久沒看到很久沒看到這樣啦但現在是這樣子啦現在是這樣子啦就是說對啦現在就是說我們現在喔"},{"start":4580.591,"end":4587.224,"text":"不要這樣一直吵啦就是說立法院然後憲法的訴訟案訴訟的這裡"},{"start":4590.666,"end":4611.807,"text":"其實這個我們都很用心去研究是用比較國際各國的比較憲法其實現在這個版本提出來的其實是符合國際的這個我們花了很多心思才開研討會事實上是沒有不是一個擴權的一個法案"},{"start":4612.568,"end":4626.649,"text":"是一個大家因為憲法都是何等的要慎重我們現在的憲法法庭真的是也沒有獲得人民的信任那成為一個政治鬥爭的一個"},{"start":4628.371,"end":4645.306,"text":"一個舞台的確是這個的確要檢討了的確是這樣子所以我們本黨這個回應的一個就是覺得行政院不該提出復議"},{"start":4646.787,"end":4675.378,"text":"那既然提出復議我們就是依照這個立法院的行持職權議事規則來處理基本上是認為那個行政院不要越處代跑不要把司法院變成司法科司法局不能就行政院擴權那比立法院擴權還厲害的什麼事情立法院通過了都不執行這個非國家之福這個是民眾黨的基本立場"},{"start":4677.873,"end":4681.661,"text":"謝謝吳村城幹事長的發言接下來吳世堯幹事長請發言公民黨團請準備"},{"start":4690.133,"end":4707.406,"text":"謝謝院長首先就今天的協商主題只排一案就是限訴法覆議案的處理日程黨團還是覺得非常的好奇為什麼只排這一案事實上民進黨團行文給韓院長認為我們朝野協商要進行的議案很多"},{"start":4708.186,"end":4712.928,"text":"包括呢這個前瞻基礎建設的預算包括台電追加減的預算包括公平會人事同意權的預算也包括民進黨團提案立法院政府院長改選的案子被程序委員會一再的阻擋這些案子等等呢都是在我們發文希望一定要透過朝野協商來進行但今天只排這一案我們覺得非常的這種選擇性排案實在有備常理哦"},{"start":4735.538,"end":4761.173,"text":"那第二个呢回到今天的主题就限诉法的复议案的部分那本席这边还是要再说明一下就限诉法他影响的是所有的国人的权利宪法救济的权利他同时也当然影响着国家最高行政机关行政院的权益所以"},{"start":4762.458,"end":4790.358,"text":"行政院基于对于限诉法他本身也是stakeholder他也必须为人民来寻求救济的手段所以行政院来提请这个复议案而且卓院长愿意负责任到立院来寻答让整个限诉法的复议案就是重新审视重新讨论再行重新议决这是整个复议案在宪法制度上的设计"},{"start":4791.138,"end":4818.308,"text":"如果一个重新审视议案是不是至爱难行而不透过讨论直接表决这完全是颠覆推翻了复议案重新审视议案的宪政设计的原理那讲到过去的惯例刚私名委员一直说立职法的规范复议案不必然一定要求来询答"},{"start":4819.068,"end":4834.43,"text":"我想史上唯一就立法院职权刑事法一九九九上路到现在几次的复议案的行使唯一的例外极端的例外而且是就会计法刚刚易宇委员已经说过了而大家不要忘记"},{"start":4835.291,"end":4852.337,"text":"会计法之所以没有进行询答就进行复义案的表决它有几个前提第一个它本身是单一条字单一文字的缺漏它的很单纯很简单不需要再讨论"},{"start":4853.325,"end":4875.08,"text":"大家都理解第二该次2013会计法不进行询答直接处理复议案的投票也是经过行政立法两院的共识协商决议说这个案子行政院他觉得他也可以不用来询答立法院也同意"},{"start":4875.74,"end":4902.007,"text":"而在立法院的内部各党团也有共识都说好那这个案子各党都不询答大家都OK所以他的前提除了是法案复议案的内容相对单纯第二他是在行政立法的共识下立院各党团的共识下做成不询答的决定除了那个极端例外的例子之外"},{"start":4902.927,"end":4921.238,"text":"从2002年才化法的复议案有寻达15个人次2003年公投法的复议案有寻达23个朝野立委寻达2004年319枪击事件真相调查委员会的复议案"},{"start":4922.645,"end":4948.084,"text":"有询答23个委员询答第四次是农会法渔会法在2007年的复议案朝野各推五位立委询答再来地政事法第五条之一的修正案的复议案2014年同样的朝野共推17位不同党派的委员经过协商上台询答"},{"start":4949.185,"end":4976.841,"text":"再到上个会期的国会扩权法案也是在韩院长主持的朝野协商里头大家都认为这么重要的复议案涉及宪政层级的一定要透过询答所以朝野民进党11位国民党11位民众党两位总共24位上台询答所以从立法院职权行使法上路到现在总共有"},{"start":4978.934,"end":5002.883,"text":"七次对不起六次的复议案都是经过完整的询答程序所以这才是惯例这才是常态请不要把会计法那个极端特殊的案例把它归类为这是复议案不询答就表决的合理化的常态的理由这完全说不通"},{"start":5003.783,"end":5023.971,"text":"所以说我们看到卓永泰院长他愿意来询答我们看到在野党委员像刚刚几位委员都说的村长委员也提到限诉法真的有剥夺人民的权利吗有这么严重吗好大家询答的时候吴春成委员可以就您想探寻的问题跟卓院长直求对决"},{"start":5025.786,"end":5037.54,"text":"國民黨的委員更是如此憲法訴訟法是你們提出來的版本你們要捍衛你們的版本你要認為你們的版本沒有違憲你們勇敢的站上質詢台一起來對話卓院長都願意來你們在害怕什麼"},{"start":5042.68,"end":5060.235,"text":"這是第一個不要剝奪行政院長他擁有的憲政權利立法院沒有那麼大不是立法院叫你來你就來叫你不來你就不能來這是人家憲法機關的憲政權利第二個講到立法院內立法院有三個主要政黨民進黨是少數黨但我們也有51個席次"},{"start":5065.404,"end":5087.274,"text":"民进党的委员针对复议案非常的慎重因为是重新审视reconsideration的过程我们想再跟行政院长来透过对话来针对宪法诉讼法是否有至爱难行之处是否有违宪之余来充分对话我们有我们的权利"},{"start":5088.294,"end":5116.439,"text":"所以民進黨的委員也要求我們要那今天少數黨發聲的權利不應當被多數黨予以閹割跟剝奪如果你們不想尋答OK啊我們協商啊像上個會期排24個啊國民黨11個民進黨11個民進黨2個你們國民黨不想你們放棄你們尋答的權利那你排定你不來你不問就好了我們常常總質詢不都這樣嗎你改書面質詢也也可以啊"},{"start":5117.279,"end":5142.312,"text":"民進黨委員我們想認真的對話我們不想能撈就撈能混就混不好意思我必須這樣講那為什麼要剝奪我們認真要尋答的權利呢如果你們放棄我們把協商的人次順序排好那我們要問啊時間還給我我的權利所以說時間上也是足夠的從今天開始到"},{"start":5147.287,"end":5174.949,"text":"宪法赋予的复议案的15天议决的期限还有total5个4days5个全日当中有两个是院会的时间我们还可以把其他委员会的时间来调整议程把它改开全院委员会还有5个时间5天的4days在担心时间不够吗"},{"start":5176.229,"end":5183.255,"text":"我不懂啊然後在野島委員現在說會延宕到總預算審查的期程就實在讓我覺得"},{"start":5185.114,"end":5204.521,"text":"倒果為因耶總預算是誰當初我們8月30送來的時候擋了70天11月8號才讓他附委總預算是哪一個委員會現在還沒有排審完就在樓上司法法治委員會吳宗憲委員排的最後一個最末班是誰在延宕總預算啊"},{"start":5207.882,"end":5225.544,"text":"我們一定會努力如期不管是照原定1月21號休會日完全總預算的期程這本來就是立法院各黨都應當善盡的我們的忠誠義務啊或者是院長要到美國去我們甚至加班再加班讓院會要提早"},{"start":5226.645,"end":5243.38,"text":"結束也可以但是完全總預算我們都有信心啊你開會到12點我們奉陪啊開會到5點我們也奉陪啊我們要把該交的作業寫出來這才是立法院的工作不要拿總預算來阻擋復議案的詢答程序"},{"start":5247.993,"end":5260.168,"text":"這是慣例這是常態這是憲政的原則這是行政院擁有的憲法權利也是立法院各個立委享有的問政的權利不要用多數黨"},{"start":5262.059,"end":5277.198,"text":"的意志就来剥夺没收我们想要行使我们职权的权利所以报告院长时间是够的还有5个4days到距离1月16号复议案的最后一天"},{"start":5278.516,"end":5300.263,"text":"表決書我們認了可是這當中的對話重新審視真理越辯越明這一定要進行所以思銘委員我們都是私自背的我們都是要重新思考透過思考才能夠來確認夫一案是不是合理對不對所以不要害怕直球對決謝謝謝謝思瑤思銘堂兄妹接下來我們請王浩衛委員發言民眾黨團請準備"},{"start":5308.786,"end":5330.274,"text":"好謝謝主席我想先講一下就說有關於國會和諧的問題沒有人想要打架我們又不是神經病老講我都覺得我是氣質美女我也不想到這邊來潑婦罵戒也不想動手但是我們要想看誰是始作俑者我們這個從上個會期到現在"},{"start":5335.236,"end":5354.456,"text":"每一次在兩黨都有霸佔主席台我承認兩黨都有霸佔主席台但是問題是霸佔主席台的目的完全不一樣啊不管是在委員會裡面或在院會裡面民進黨的霸佔主席台的目的是讓會開不成"},{"start":5357.515,"end":5386.662,"text":"不管是在内政委员会或在院会里面就是让你的会议开不成所以我想请问一下这样是一个合理的国会吗这是一个符合民主程序的国会吗我想不管院长副院长或者我们秘书长或者所有议事人员也很感慨也很为难大家谁不想好好的坐在那里开会呢"},{"start":5388.437,"end":5401.75,"text":"對 大家都是正常的嘛 大家都是正常人我們沒有想要打架而國民黨有沒有霸佔主席台 也有但是國民黨的霸佔主席台是為了讓會議能夠進行不得不 迫不得已 實在不得不為"},{"start":5410.6,"end":5432.288,"text":"所以我要講就說國會和諧是大家的責任我同意然後我們現在國會紛紛擾擾那確實讓很多民眾會擔心我也同意但是我們必須把它釐清責任誰是始作俑者好這一點不要各打五十大板或者把責任推給在野黨錯"},{"start":5434.42,"end":5439.321,"text":"我們是為了讓會議能夠召開這一點我們必須要很清楚的來說明接下來我們今天其實重點就是我們限訴法的附議案我們在上一次的協商雖然我們覺得其實這個協商已經經過院長的開會協調但是院長很尊重民進黨"},{"start":5460.928,"end":5482.036,"text":"而國民黨跟民眾黨我們今天也都坐在這邊我們也很尊重民進黨再次提出所以我們也願意在這邊再做協商那包括剛才光是柯總召一個程序發言漏漏長將近30分鐘我們也非常的尊重就讓他發言"},{"start":5483.897,"end":5487.78,"text":"所以我必須要講即便在我們的協商的過程裡面我們也表達了充分尊重那至於就是說我們現在就是處理復議的時間因為確實我們接下來只剩下四個院會那當然我們也可以去協商加開院會但是呢也不要這個忘記因為我們在復議案的過程裡面"},{"start":5512.72,"end":5517.205,"text":"必須除了院會來處理這個表決案之外也要召開那個全院審查會那這樣的一個過程就是我們不然的話我們就是占有委員會的時間所以確實我們的時間已經非常非常的緊迫"},{"start":5530.78,"end":5553.976,"text":"只有四个院会的时间那我们到目前为止我们现在中央政府总预算我们还没有进行协商因为我们协商也要花时间即便虽然我们都已经做好要甚至挑灯夜战马拉松式的协商但是我们也要考虑就如同刚才柯总统也讲到院长要去美国参加就职典礼"},{"start":5560.98,"end":5580.572,"text":"那么江副院长当然我们情商啊为什么要让江副院长留下来因为柯总召已经对外说了说如果院长不在副院长也不在就由他来主持会议那我们听了以后呢会有一点害怕所以我们还是希望至少我们的江副院长来主持会议"},{"start":5581.753,"end":5586.938,"text":"所以我們現在這個時間點來說的話只剩下四次院會也許要加開院會但是我們能不能處理中央政府總預算有時候我覺得很荒謬照理說比較著急總預算的應該是執政黨"},{"start":5605.069,"end":5609.071,"text":"通過了其實是執政黨在這個行政部門在使用可是我覺得好奇怪我覺得這幾天給我的感覺是為什麼反而是執政黨不急著不急著來處理總預算反而急著要花很多的時間來處理復議案如果按照如果按照說由行政院長來報告"},{"start":5632.364,"end":5655.616,"text":"然後11 11加224位那請問一下我們要花多少時間來做就是院長的報告跟院長的答詢等一下我剛剛沒有打斷你們待會就可以提出來嘛你們的版本啊對不對那今天其實院長報告這個平台老講現在是一個資訊網路極為發達的時代"},{"start":5661.391,"end":5687.224,"text":"站在立法院的这个议事厅里面来报告跟他今天在行政院召开记者会报告他的诉求也都可以充分的让国人知道不是吗好当然刚才在讲说呃我那个吴思瑶干长说这叫做宪政权利什么叫宪政权利啊请问一下宪法里面有规定吗"},{"start":5688.514,"end":5705.436,"text":"憲法裡有規定說立法院處理復議案必須要請行政院長來報告嗎憲法裡面沒有任何的明文規定啊沒有任何規定啊那請問憲政權力不是今天一人一黨"},{"start":5707.49,"end":5721.896,"text":"說了算嗎或醫院說了算嗎他的憲政權利所有人民憲政權利不是用憲法保障就是法律上來保障好那剛才我們的書記長秦思明書記長也講得非常清楚依照立法院職權行使法33條也是德嘛"},{"start":5726.84,"end":5733.023,"text":"也是德所以在最好的狀況之下如果今天我們的院會我們整個的立法院的議事程序是足夠充裕的話那當然我們就請院長來報告但是現在眼看的是極為極為的急促"},{"start":5747.21,"end":5775.593,"text":"在中央政府总预算部分也可以跟大家报告因为我们也很着急所以我们在以我们国民党团来讲我们在下个礼拜一就停止收件然后我们希望充分配合因为恐怕这个院长在出国之前也要花很长的时间来做协商对不对我们也要给院长和各政党各提案的委员各委员会"},{"start":5776.974,"end":5787.974,"text":"有充分的中央政府总预算说明跟讨论的时间嘛复议案这么重要也重要但是老实说复议案越来越成为家常便饭了嘛"},{"start":5788.752,"end":5808.382,"text":"我們早就已經開了憲政的這個前例嘛現在我們已經是最短時間裡面行政院提出復議案啊短短在在幾個月七個月時間吧搞不好以後會更更更短喔兩三個月就來一次兩三個月就來一次"},{"start":5809.222,"end":5829.968,"text":"这个都变成家常便饭了嘛我们预算一年省一次不重要吗所以为什么我们在极短的时间里面是不是可以留给中央政府总预算比较充裕的时间来做讨论你们一直在指责说我们司法法制委员会其他委员会都完成了"},{"start":5831.738,"end":5838.985,"text":"對不對 那在這樣的狀況之下我們21號 21號我們表定時間 21號要休會那還要拖什麼呢好 那剛才也講 我非常我非常感謝我們剛才柯總召說 他說他發誓他說他發誓 反正我們都有直播啦我相信我沒有講錯"},{"start":5857.483,"end":5863.849,"text":"他說啊一定要要完成這個憲政的程序不會違憲他說否則的話民進黨也要被罵會被罵死啊沒錯啊不只民進黨被罵我們都要被罵死啊怎麼可以怠惰成這樣好但是為什麼要16號才來完成呢為什麼我不懂啊這個"},{"start":5878.978,"end":5882.622,"text":"很多人家在民間都可以加班對不對為什麼我們要等到16號16號完成醫事人員還要我們為什麼要讓醫事人員那麼過勞這樣我們是霸凌醫事人員"},{"start":5894.193,"end":5899.257,"text":"因為他感知說不要到時候我們說我們完成了我們就回家睡大覺了意思人員要整理啊你當我們完成之後這個就生效了嗎 沒有啊所以我們不要霸凌意思人員嘛為什麼一定要16號才能完成我不懂欸我不懂這個期程到底是什麼意思呢要讓大家最後壓線嗎我們可以提早完成就提早完成"},{"start":5922.874,"end":5935.597,"text":"所以在明天我們因為事實上我們把在星期二的時候我們幾乎把押箱的很多的法案都清倉了嘛好都也清倉的差不多好所以我們在明天星期五所以我為什麼提出星期五我們可以大家全力來處理這個復議案我們把復議案處理完成之後大家沒有後顧之憂了吧對不對"},{"start":5947.799,"end":5953.444,"text":"那而且在一定要開審查會嘛一定要一定放心啦也會一定讓你們講話啦齁那麼這樣子明天我們把它做好我們下禮拜全新的來去處理這個預算案你們本來民進黨團也提出有關中央政府總預算的問題嘛對不對還前瞻台電反正一頭拉骨啦"},{"start":5969.958,"end":5988.291,"text":"一一拖拉鼓所以我們要處理的真的非常非常多我們下禮拜我們騰出手來騰出時間好好的去處理中央政府總預算這不是然後即使是如此我們也要加班下禮拜我們也要加班我都已經決定我不要戴隱形眼鏡來了"},{"start":5989.612,"end":6007.334,"text":"大家受不了了好所以在这样的状况之下所以我们还是觉得既然柯总召这么是大体是大局觉得说不会把他拖延为限那我们就星期五我们努力星期五把它完成下礼拜大家"},{"start":6007.854,"end":6012.657,"text":"都可以好好處理政府總預算那我真的覺得就是說如果今天民進黨團的立場是我們不能違憲我們只要把這個相關的憲政的處理程序把它處理完那麼我們就把它處理完但是我覺得放到16號完成我不懂這個到底是什麼意思是要讓我們提心吊膽還是我們要去霸凌議事人員呢對不對"},{"start":6036.013,"end":6051.43,"text":"好這個這個就拜託一下好對不起那個主席讓我再補充一下因為我我覺得一直都在講一些有的沒有的事情也就是限速法就是說啊這個限速法怎麼自愛難行怎麼自愛難行其實我們過去提過"},{"start":6055.174,"end":6078.834,"text":"我们现在宪法法庭确实我们九成以上的案件是来自于受理民众的来提示宪案但是你知道吗事实上我们不受理的比例就是民众没错大部分九成是来申请但是根本不受理的高达九成五啊"},{"start":6080.12,"end":6099.376,"text":"即便最近不是高鴻安的案子後來法官說不要審了暫時停止審理說要去提釋憲但是很多人都認為很可能他也不受理因為他每個月都是上百件財政就不受理不受理不受理所以你一直在那邊講對民眾的程序怎麼樣權益影響多大多大多大你去問一下那你為什麼要駁回九成五呢你根本沒有在受理嘛"},{"start":6107.503,"end":6113.328,"text":"那所以我們這部分就是因為你們講我們必須要做一些回應嘛所以這點一定要再做一些回應所以在這邊呢還是請大家能夠去能夠大家支持啦就是我們在明天在我們法案裡都清倉差不多的狀況之下我們抓緊時間趕快把賦予案趕快完成"},{"start":6132.685,"end":6141.332,"text":"那行政院長今天都報告啦 媒體都報 我都拜讀啦 對不對 我都很清楚啦 好不好那然後我們各黨團 還是可以去充分的發言這樣就好了 好不好 謝謝謝謝黃威偉 那台灣民眾黨還要再發言嗎李昆仁委員請準備"},{"start":6153.714,"end":6174.033,"text":"剛剛施堯說林思敏是四字輩我發現林思敏很多交集他跟柯建銘也是明字輩的你們是明字輩的那我們兩個是成字輩所以事實上是很容易達成共識的"},{"start":6176.096,"end":6183.66,"text":"我看了半天 我一直很認真在看我就是看不懂這個自然難行的理由當然可以請教"},{"start":6194.525,"end":6214.535,"text":"第四條第三項裡面現在的修正條文說大法官就是如果未滿人數總統應該在兩個月內補足提名行政院自然難行的理由說這樣子只片面要求總統兩個月內來補提名"},{"start":6218.369,"end":6225.317,"text":"違對與提名後立法院應與何時期限來行使同意權均未有規定"},{"start":6226.977,"end":6249.492,"text":"就是我提名但是你們沒有什麼同意啊我這也未免太沒有信任感的這個就是叫政治責任嘛那你總統的一個責任就是不足你趕快給他提到足但現在的就是提出好人選然後你就向考試委員提出大家可接受的人選"},{"start":6251.173,"end":6265.509,"text":"草野不是很快的就過關了嗎 都沒有問題嘛那也不要就說 所以就趕快大家解決問題提出了你的好人選這樣子馬上解決問題了 不要再用釋憲的方式來解決"},{"start":6269.053,"end":6285.912,"text":"再來的話就是對於第30條這裡說現在參與評議的修正案裡面的大法官人數不能低於10人然後如果宣告違憲不可以低於9人行政院的一個"},{"start":6287.393,"end":6301.537,"text":"說這個提高這個判決的門檻會造成少數意見主導憲法法庭 我這個也聽不懂提高門檻反而會變成少數那我要問 那個憲法法庭廢死的時候用一字決"},{"start":6303.658,"end":6328.283,"text":"那一字決不是一個人就可以主導整個的憲法法庭每一個案子的理由都不一樣我覺得這個也很不合理而且現在來講現在我們這個參考像美國大法官九位他要釋憲的時候必須要六位就三分之二美國韓國大法官九位"},{"start":6330.813,"end":6353.961,"text":"他要開會要七個人九個人要有七個人三分之二加一喔三分之二加一喔然後呢 南非也是三分之二加一喔所以我們現在呢 這樣子呢應該是符合國際大家常態的法規啦OK OK 好好好謝謝村長那個李昆仲委員請麻煩掌握一下時間對焦 謝謝"},{"start":6356.922,"end":6367.467,"text":"為什麼我講的時候才叫我掌握時間他們講的時候都沒有說要掌握時間主席對不起主席主席對不起主席我要會議詢問主席其實我們大家都互相尊重可是我們過去也講就是說我們在協商的時候我們今天協商的氣氛其實是算非常好對不對但是我們本來就是都是山長發言"},{"start":6384.275,"end":6394.921,"text":"對不對民進黨團三長都發言過了是不是那所以我現在你是要限制我發言嗎我還在會議許願中我還在會議許願中我剛就講說我們都已經都已經非常的大家都已經非常尊重這樣講有失氣質啊"},{"start":6409.188,"end":6411.591,"text":"我有什麼失氣質我氣質就這樣然後我一直就說喔就說大家互相尊重你態度好喔我就睜一隻眼閉一隻眼啊"},{"start":6420.302,"end":6446.535,"text":"态度不好那我们过去这个不是由你来评断谁的态度好谁的态度不好好不好那请问你现在有什么你现在有什么我为什么不能来发言院长可以让我发言我就发言了啊他们只有一个人为什么你要发言四个人你想吵架是不是我就一直希望说大家互相尊重不要吵架对不对不要吵架你吵骂安"},{"start":6447.876,"end":6449.778,"text":"現在是實質問題不是誠信問題所以實質問題討論的時候大家可以發言"},{"start":6464.469,"end":6482.325,"text":"沒有 所以尊重那個主席主席所以我意思說齁我們其實我們過去就有講就是說我們其實基本上是那個三長嘛 對不對那如果你不是三長我們真的我也可以叫一堆人我們就不停的冗長發言了嘛 是不是這樣子不好嘛 是不是好 所以我就覺得各黨團要有互相的尊重"},{"start":6485.428,"end":6510.145,"text":"對我來講有超出時間很長的但是呢我覺得只要這個氣氛融洽這個態度不要太惡劣我們都願意尊重所以我講了嘛你態度好我就睜一隻眼閉一隻眼你態度不好我就只好提出來所以主席這個院長其實我尊重院長的才是但是不要讓人家覺得得了便宜還賣乖今天我們是三長嘛"},{"start":6514.778,"end":6525.266,"text":"川產只有一個人來嘛是不是所以態度好一些尊重大家一些基本的尊重不會嗎你不要再講話我跟紅衛委員報告一下我也跟各位黨團幹部報告一下"},{"start":6535.074,"end":6559.088,"text":"目前為止,今天開會到現在,他這個run是順暢的那柯總召,感覺上民進黨發言三個,但柯總召他很聰明他一開始用程序發言,所以他是用了一個很技巧等到柯總召發言完畢之後,我立刻請國民黨團開始詢現在吳思瑤跟蔡宜兩位都講完了國民黨團林思明跟洪維偉也講完了所以我特別請吳春城委員,他講了兩次"},{"start":6560.559,"end":6573.071,"text":"兩次,這一點就是要跟大家報告,我們一定是照過去的慣例,讓三個黨團不管人多人少能夠平均公平發言,這一點一定要讓黨團能夠量度"},{"start":6575.794,"end":6582.178,"text":"你不能再發,因為現在要李昆成委員發,我已經講了王宏偉提出會議詢問,所以讓王宏偉先會議詢問我一開始講說是程序問題或是前因問題前因問題是讓會議能夠開得下去"},{"start":6603.069,"end":6624.116,"text":"那黃文威講的話我也聽得懂啦李紛呈也有他的道理他剛才吵起來也有道理吵起來也有道理啦我現在嚴閉稱讚黃文威嚴閉稱讚黃文威總可以吧但是我要講一個比較實際的問題我們現在講的不是只有實質的問題只有誠信的問題因為這個牽涉到整個"},{"start":6632.086,"end":6658.048,"text":"憲政裡面的大問題我常常講說要當一個立法委員乃至於當官員都要有國務法及憲法上的常識我今天講的這是一個國家憲政體制上非常重要的問題同時我要談一個就是說實質問題的時候當然誰都可以講話純為成績問題就三掌來就過了我們以前都這樣講"},{"start":6659.437,"end":6685.526,"text":"那還有一個就是說,我們大家翻一翻,所有的法令,八六、全書以及職業信訊法、義務規則等等,有沒有哪一條規定,花你的吃吃飯時間?沒有。這是民主的展示啦。但是我還是覺得大家氣氛好,慢慢講沒有關係。所以我一直很,講話的時候,我一直看,"},{"start":6687.026,"end":6687.427,"text":"我絕對不是,請我可以講話嗎?好,謝謝院長"},{"start":6704.755,"end":6719.75,"text":"這個剛剛這個春辰兄我們陳志備的那剛剛對於這個限訴法有很多的意義很好有很多的意義就等這個行政院院長這個來這個立法院來跟這個不管是春辰兄或是說國民黨跟民進黨所有的委員講清楚嘛"},{"start":6720.47,"end":6737.972,"text":"這就是附議嘛那提附議的話那行政院一定有他的話想講嘛有他的話想講就在立法院講是最正式的嘛那所以剛剛這個村城兄的這些問題跟質疑沒有關係我相信我們這個卓院長一定會講得很清楚但是講呢一定是在立法院講"},{"start":6738.553,"end":6751.823,"text":"因為他是對立法委員來做負責的不是說這個你們說現在開記者會啦在臉書上面有寫啦就講得很清楚了其實今天主院長他在臉書上面或是記者會講的他就是講很遺憾啊他是很遺憾啊他連最基本的說明的機會都被剝奪了而且是絕非遺憾兩個字可以形容比遺憾更遺憾啊那所以院長真的"},{"start":6763.612,"end":6783.506,"text":"這個您是立法院院長那邀請行政院院長來這個立法院做這個復議案說明我認為這個是行政院長的這個義務不是只有權力而已那剛才這個國民黨委員有講啊這個明天是院會啊這個要審法案啊那所以呢這個那最好復議案的時候一起講"},{"start":6784.346,"end":6805.138,"text":"如果說明天這個院會一起處理復議案的話那才是真正是在阻擋法案的進行因為院會本來就是有什麼法案我們就來審查但是這個行政院院長要來立法院做這個復議案的說明那是要開這個立法院的這個全院的委員會"},{"start":6806.533,"end":6828.702,"text":"那你要開全委員會我們就是另外再訂個時間也不會影響到這個院會的進行嘛所以說如果說明天就要排這個院會然後就把這個附議案把它排進去然後馬上就要表決這才是占用時間啊所以院長按照慣例行政院院長來這個立法院就附議案的說明過去都是全院的委員會來做說明"},{"start":6830.603,"end":6848.564,"text":"所以应该是说在下个礼拜排个时间来做这个全院的委员会请行政院院长来做复议案的说明这才是正办而且现在我看除了这个司法委员会现在还在审预算之外其实很多的委员会预算都已经审完了"},{"start":6849.085,"end":6868.562,"text":"那其實是有時間來開這個不論是這一個全院的委員會來處理這個復議案或是說剛剛國民黨的這個委員有講那現在總預算很重要那沒關係啊我們也可以加開院會再來講總預算的事情因為這一根究底啊是誰在擋這個總預算是國民黨在擋總預算啊"},{"start":6871.705,"end":6892.094,"text":"擋了六次耶 這程序委員會就把他擋掉了耶行政院是在八月底的時候就把總預算送到我們立法院來了但是我們立法院是哪時候才開 才開始把總預算附委是在十一月五號耶 十一月八號耶十一月八號才把這個整個總預算來附委所以是誰在擋總預算 是國民黨在擋總預算啊"},{"start":6894.895,"end":6910.567,"text":"擋了兩個多月11月8號才讓整個總運算來覆尾才交付審查那現在國民黨就說哎呀總運算很重要總運算當然重要所以呢這個我們都可以加開用會來處理但是不要忘了當初為什麼總運算省那麼久"},{"start":6911.528,"end":6928.545,"text":"因為國民黨在11月8號才把總預算整個再復違那另外呢其實我們今天的這個朝野協商本來也有提到協商的部分呢除了這個限數法之外我們還有這一個114年度中央政府的總預算"},{"start":6929.793,"end":6946.698,"text":"還有這個前瞻預算這些特別預算追加預算等等本來也想說今天朝野協商的時候請院長來做處理但是今天沒有今天就只有談這個限訴法好啦那現在還有就是說國民黨最常用的理由就是說啊這限訴法關行政幹什麼事情"},{"start":6947.618,"end":6974.804,"text":"當然關行政院的事情嘛這個剛剛大家講很清楚了99以上的這個案子都是人民的釋憲案那按照這個司法院所提供的資料現在還有400多件啊還在這個司法院裡面等待這個憲法法庭來做這個審理那如果按照這個國民黨邏輯憲訴法司法院關行政院什麼事情為什麼要行政院院長來做這個復案說明"},{"start":6976.664,"end":6994.715,"text":"那為什麼立法院職權行使法這個擴權法案通過之後那行政院有沒有提復議有啊那行政院院長有沒有來做說明也有啊那為什麼那時候國民黨就沒有說啊這是立法院職權行使法關行政院什麼事情沒有嘛還是來做說明因為跟行政院也有相關嘛"},{"start":6995.535,"end":7013.374,"text":"限訴法也是一樣啊也是跟行政院有相關代表這麼多的人民來做這個限訴法的復驗的說明相當的合理嘛所以說當初是誰把手伸進到這個司法院不是行政院是立法院立法院你把手伸進去了限訴法"},{"start":7014.435,"end":7033,"text":"憲法訴訟法就好像是這個憲法法庭的這個職權行使法就好像是我們自己的立法院職權行使法如果按照憲法第四條規定要怎麼審理人數都是由大法官自己來決定的不是你立法院定了一個法把手伸進去司法院來決定他要怎麼開會幾個人可以開會幾個人可以評審可以評理"},{"start":7036.361,"end":7061.758,"text":"這完全是立法權深進到司法權裡面了嘛所以今天行政院來做這個復議案的報告絕對不是說行政院把手伸到了司法院不是是立法院是國民黨通過了限訴法先把手伸進去了伸進到司法院裡面去了行政院才被迫必須來做復議案的說明跟報告我把這個話要把它講清楚我看這個院長已經點頭微笑了"},{"start":7065.066,"end":7091.05,"text":"好 那我們現在先說到這邊 謝謝任長謝謝李昆城委員的發言各位黨黨幹部我特別報告剛剛民進黨團兩次提出所有所提出來要求朝野協商的議案包括國民黨團 台灣民眾黨團就大家意見提出來我們都會鬧朝野協商所以下星期我們會繼續朝野協商這一點跟各位報告請大家務必不要存有疑心不是閃躲 是因為限訴法明天就要審查了所以今天才特別排這個案我們沒有"},{"start":7091.63,"end":7119.538,"text":"包括我本人立法院長、副院長的改選案,我們都會面對問題不會閃躲,這一點要特別報告明天是一個很重要的...我知道第二個就是各黨團都做發言有的黨團希望行政院長來報告有的黨團希望明天就處理我們這個憲法第2次協商上一次也已經做出我們一切一規定處理可是呢,民進黨團又提出來我們也覺得很重視所以今天又再一次下午又來協商所以這樣的話,我想我們就"},{"start":7120.854,"end":7135.216,"text":"一切還是一樣,我們就依照規定好不好,明天沒有辦法達成共識嘛這要朝野寫上來決定啊那要不然我們就休息五分鐘讓他來寫上來好不好,休息一下"},{"start":7145.779,"end":7174.683,"text":"會不會過到總預算 總預算接下來是協商啊那協商跟台那個全院委員會又不衝突還有副院長這一組織啊好 那我不是 你們要不要私底下處和漢典都不夠風向你院長要來跟他們說OK SHORT PASS 等一下誰要我講完一定有錢齁 好不好你們要不要來"},{"start":7187.305,"end":7196.072,"text":"不要緊張,我一定有解方市長明天來,下禮拜就處理,一樣是可以表決的到啊我們的行政院長來,下禮拜就可以處理了啊"},{"start":7205.719,"end":7233.408,"text":"然後你喊總預算 總預算接下來是協商協商院長主持 看一邊副院長一邊院長就好了對啊 又不衝突對啊 跟總預算沒有關係不會壓線才處理啦紅圍委員 我很期待你可以氣質的在詢問行政院長大家不要緊張 我一定有解方而且讓大家非常愉快"},{"start":7254.32,"end":7271.533,"text":"氣質美女不要走啊 紅衛氣質美女不要走我很怕氣質走了我們氣質要留住 我很怕氣質走了來來來 氣質要留下來 氣質一定要留下來"},{"start":7273.103,"end":7300.089,"text":"不要讓氣質落跑了事實上他跟總預算的程序一點都沒有關係因為總預算接下來就是總預算接下來就是協商嘛他跟兩件事是分開的我是覺得說你們下禮拜一定有時間可以處理16號之前啊"},{"start":7301.448,"end":7323.106,"text":"阿所以你們下禮拜有充裕的時間如果明天我們明天就可以把尋答結束了阿明天才10號阿我們明天就可以讓他尋答結束阿奇怪阿就大家按照程序這樣不是很好嗎"},{"start":7331.32,"end":7340.526,"text":"總預算委員會處理完院長召集協商協商程序又不影響其他的程序加開一次 全院委員會不會再要到院會的時間"},{"start":7360.814,"end":7366.399,"text":"有没有逆转?"},{"start":7404.497,"end":7420.263,"text":"這裏有一個很重要的地方,就是這裏。"},{"start":7434.019,"end":7461.544,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":7463.373,"end":7477.862,"text":"我一定要上來講話?你講,一定要你講,重點是你先把時間解放告訴我我用查理常定下來就好了12日時間定下來,念過去了比如你怕16號,14號已經完成了,請查理常拿念過去"},{"start":7492.202,"end":7496.327,"text":"那我們怎麼組旗號 這樣都可以談了啊你明天走得過去我從不走你走不過去的那個好"},{"start":7512.345,"end":7522.112,"text":"這個倒著去講話"},{"start":7547.103,"end":7547.123,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":7563.083,"end":7582.331,"text":"現在剛好是半天了啊我們沒有啊我們同樣是一個什麼環境"},{"start":7588.643,"end":7614.445,"text":"對,對"},{"start":7618.88,"end":7619.2,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7661.311,"end":7676.003,"text":"有嗎?有嗎?"},{"start":7692.312,"end":7696.734,"text":"就有任何"},{"start":7713.012,"end":7733.268,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7741.598,"end":7746.14,"text":"你都不公說話 上去又沒有解駁一點輿論空間都沒有你們先溝通 讓他不夠"},{"start":7773.784,"end":7782.651,"text":"講完就"},{"start":7784.471,"end":7805.976,"text":"不是他跟高雄一點關係都沒有不是他還沒有說完是我想的是我想的你剛剛說我告訴你王文威跟他一點關係都沒有他下半輪他有下半輪"},{"start":7821.864,"end":7838.053,"text":"你要不要去念召一大堂?我們想之後把他去念召一大堂為什麼要去念召一大堂呢?我們想去念召夢眠夢想去念召夢眠夢想去念召夢眠夢想去念召夢眠夢想去念召夢眠夢想去念召夢眠夢想去念召夢眠夢"},{"start":7845.397,"end":7861.766,"text":"院長,我希望你承諾諾言好不好對啊,我希望你承諾諾言我講一句話大家都聽得懂,但是我會把道理講清楚不必溝通,我講話絕對算數,好不好"},{"start":7870.464,"end":7897.663,"text":"來,那個啊,蔡英雅蔡英雅沒關係啦,我講得大家清楚啦你給我講完我到現在為止,我不想要服辱你賣什麼藥對啊,也應該你要講得很明確喔人家要很明確我在合氣的搭這個橋兩邊,走路走不下去沒有把那個橋挖斷我是把橋搭起來,好不好,大家請坐好"},{"start":7898.339,"end":7920.751,"text":"好,現在我們繼續開會,那柯建民總召請求發言,我們請柯總召那門關起來好不好?等一下總席是我發言,這個一定要感謝一下"},{"start":7931.431,"end":7932.372,"text":"來,院長、各位委員同仁,我等一下,"},{"start":7937.25,"end":7959.703,"text":"我跟各位保證,請大家注意聽,保證我講的方式,大家聽了洪威所講的就是說我到底賣什麼葫蘆,我是要把事情解決,而且很圓滿,就如此而已那請大家,希望我把整個論述講完"},{"start":7961.328,"end":7966.59,"text":"對於各位所提的問題我一一回答不是博士我一一回答這才是正辦這是溝通第一個針對吳征程委員"},{"start":7974.875,"end":8001.483,"text":"第一句話你所講的那大海灣會議沒有什麼公信力你講的那就是說你沒有沉默上不了解第二個你說大海灣會議以後是十比九十比九為什麼憲法訴訟法用十比九"},{"start":8002.823,"end":8023.967,"text":"國民黨要把通殺變成八個而已這一定有道理那現在我們也知道新法訴訟法從什麼時候開始呢因為當年是大法官審理案件法民國93年我進來的時候到了民國108年1月1號通過然後延三年反通期所以111年1月1號"},{"start":8031.755,"end":8056.657,"text":"因為要司法節才開始那麼很公私的後退式司法節111上街頭要1月上街頭這法案司法公認罪這很公私的柯文哲現在有問題你要有耐心好不好"},{"start":8060.006,"end":8086.543,"text":"我這個法學教育啦,大家搶個空來吳征仁,吳征仁當然好朋友嘛,交換一下意見司法協商協討,實質上這樣的行為司法一時當然當年從大審法改到限訴法的時候是108年1月1號,有三年法律公職,所以1111是這樣的意思"},{"start":8090.205,"end":8115.092,"text":"但是一一一不是定國機也不是打錢架人家要了解這個所以你們的邏輯完全錯亂那黃國昌天天在演笑話給大家聽我在臉書上寫過一句話就是說請大家不要再討論柯文哲事件了那是一個民主國家諷刺"},{"start":8116.291,"end":8136.342,"text":"反正柯P再怎麼樣,天天在演消化也不是天天在追逐他的消化沒有漏氣媒體上不知道應該再談了,因為他沒有翻身的餘地啦沒有翻身的餘地好官,簡單話很有技巧的求情28.5年其實28.5年等於30年啦柯P未來再判"},{"start":8142.887,"end":8168.803,"text":"三個28.5或三個無期徒刑合併執行還是28.5年但是你沒有繳還犯罪所得的話是關滿期的所以這個官司是非常嚴峻的然後每天在電視上包括提訊的時候亂講話前言不得後語我認為這個案子已經很清楚了"},{"start":8169.884,"end":8189.546,"text":"所以大家要來思考什麼在一個民主化這麼充足的台灣民主化走了三十年那為什麼台灣會發生這種事情也就是柯文哲用他的騙術可以騙得這麼久那台灣社會應該反思這個事情反思為什麼要反思這個事情就是民粹嘛"},{"start":8191.792,"end":8218.283,"text":"他跟柯文哲結一起嘛要弄顏聖文嘛顏聖文因為他是前櫃後裔嘛所以他有他原罪 大家滿意大家滿意就一直排山倒海 造成柯文哲當選他不是說要推倒藍衣人技巧嗎但是他今天把自己推倒了"},{"start":8219.758,"end":8246.315,"text":"所以這個東西很弔詭所以我呼籲大家應該來檢視這個事情為什麼台灣會發生這種事情這比較重要我希望大家把眼球轉到另外一個方向來反正我們今天講的限塑法講到我們現在台灣民主是不是會被摧毀台灣未來是不是會被中共佔領台灣未來還有未來嗎"},{"start":8247.799,"end":8269.585,"text":"所以所有民間大家都很擔心,這國家醫療又有國家嗎?我們還有2028的選舉嗎?這台灣聽說在考慮這個問題,所以這個比較重要至於吳征平所講的,因為限數法,我不知道大家有沒有了解限數法我還要再強調一次"},{"start":8271.513,"end":8295.755,"text":"不管任何政治人物乃至於政務官都要基本的公法及憲法上嘗試這樣才整個國家想往前進否則的話完全沒有公法及憲法上嘗試這國家非常危險所以我對憲法上坦白講我對憲法花了很多時間研究那時候分歧就講說"},{"start":8297.876,"end":8322.847,"text":"說叫我大好官其實不是因為我對這個非常在意就是說新的體制要靠大家遵守憲法來維持的那今天講的就是說歐小英提出所謂的憲訴法看起來沒有什麼問題但是有一個很大機關他就是要十個九個嘛十個九個"},{"start":8324.619,"end":8343.959,"text":"要開會的時候至少十個,平的時候要九個,那奇怪,開會十個人,微信審查只要九個人,那一個人沒有來的話,一個人我覺得全部嘛,三八個就全部,說他訂了訂了,他根本訂一個八個就可以,他現在通過你把"},{"start":8345.522,"end":8373.409,"text":"我們同意前前通殺15生的8個8個根本沒有辦法滿足10個9個嘛那黃國昌也是一樣嘛他知道柯國昌容我提醒你剛剛講那個solution解決我回頭拜託我幫黃國昌講清楚大家都很清楚就是說我這邏輯理論是哪一來的好不好院長對不起喔今天可能反正現在3年多而已現在3年多了至少"},{"start":8374.713,"end":8399.168,"text":"那法定人還可以開到五點半嘛,不是可以開這麼久啦,等一下我講完就結束啦,好不好我要把一月一月拆開,好不好?院長,你今天央聽還不錯啊?沒有,央聽還不錯但是你沒白的啦,好不好?我現在沒有在講我看到你常常很注意在聽,但是要吸收進去,好不好?不要一直叫我說不要講了我看你眼睛就不大對"},{"start":8402.8,"end":8426.697,"text":"關其某之人因所在所以我今天要講的就是說歐小英提的案子坦白講我不知道我當然知道她憂鬱然後她提的要十個九個嘛那十個九個當然是定額我們講很清楚定額沒有錯但是她把大法官三分之四只剩下八個那你沒有辦法釋憲嘛"},{"start":8428.54,"end":8435.064,"text":"這個作用在什麼?吳俊仁跟委員剛剛有講到,你賴總統應該再補,當然賴總統應該補,那賴總統補的時候,假如賴總統所補的你就砍掉的時候,當然最後會面臨到義務問題嘛,義務就是人家說你是要怎麼解?"},{"start":8449.793,"end":8469.683,"text":"你是會談到所謂政黨比喻的名額嘛他們的戰略是在這裡要有人進去大法官要有人來進大法官但是呢 胡文綺也曾經講過大法官應該照政黨比喻來我說什麼時候大法官照政黨比喻來你馬英九有沒有照政黨比喻來大法官從來以前到現在都是用審見委員會來審見"},{"start":8472.133,"end":8495.227,"text":"各方推薦然後審議委員通過總統看過總統當然有最後的權力的調整這是我們整個大法官人事審查就是如此包括這次賴總統所提的院長、副院長乃至於大法官我們就弄憲法上他的權力這是他權力所以他提誰我們都不知道"},{"start":8496.147,"end":8497.771,"text":"但是審查是在國會,國會是自主"},{"start":8507.044,"end":8526.384,"text":"劉教授有意見,那黨團是要一致解的所以我們是什麼?七個裡面有六個贊成,一個很對如果我們老是通殺,完全不一樣的味道所以你現在講說我們和我們黨一起聯合對抗那種完全錯誤"},{"start":8527.865,"end":8546.998,"text":"我們是六個同意,一個不同意,一定要一次解嘛你們是七個同意不同意,所以在這裡亦以序名,請不要進行查證,完全毫無道理所以對於吳征文委員,吳征文委員講的就是這個道理他們後面戰略目的,其他價值在什麼,這樣當然我很清楚嘛這黃鑾昌和胡文綺"},{"start":8549.68,"end":8567.388,"text":"去設計,後面還有孫永青一大堆TALK的人,乃至於北京都有可能所以我最近可能會寫一篇文章,來談陳昌文、孫永青等人,包括李建柱等人"},{"start":8567.768,"end":8592.376,"text":"柯總早,時間我現在不可以講,你繼續走沒事,那我們要走囉你走沒有關係,我這還是錄音啊我是要留下紀錄的我一個一個講,大家才會清楚嘛好,來,董事長,我來歐盟會要走以前,我一一給你駁斥"},{"start":8595.77,"end":8615.002,"text":"我們在總預算很重要當然很重要一定能如期完成但是今天吳少偉乃是我們所有委員講的今天在樓上還在審查法務部預算是吳宗憲是國民黨策略性的在卡雖然很清楚"},{"start":8617.52,"end":8620.202,"text":"所以很清楚就是說因為海岸長島就跟我講過"},{"start":8637.398,"end":8656.687,"text":"假如他十天要到美國的時候,我們都可以加開宴會到晚上十二點第二個我們可以加開宴會,所以完全不影響總預算總預算困難點在什麼地方?困難點就是說,他可能可以要這個禮拜五"},{"start":8660.678,"end":8677.127,"text":"他們報上來,完畢以後馬上報上來,因為會交互相依才可以開始協商,才可以叫各黨提出新的意見,提出新的案子。通常這樣的時候大概有七八千案。"},{"start":8678.988,"end":8707.229,"text":"然後再叫行政部門去一一溝通一溝通以後當然有時候就改為什麼改為組結議或改為輸入報告就可以這是整個過程最後回來報告王院長蘇前院長以及游賢院長在最後寫上說車案運得很快所以這樣才能夠完成但是這裡面有一點重點就是說"},{"start":8709.191,"end":8723.803,"text":"一定要曹海祥簽下來,某年某月一定要完成而且要談三檢總署多少三檢總署出來以後就迎刃而解,如包賓檢有,這是總運算的問題所以我要在這裡告訴王國樂委員他所談的,院長,你曾經在山上"},{"start":8738.325,"end":8764.973,"text":"不可能去菩薩的廟裡面坐禪十幾年你應該很有修養我今天早上來的時候我還先練觀世音菩薩普門經好不好大家都要修養那你相當有修養的人嘛那聽了這些話也被你的修養上面不會有破壞一定有加成作用好不好"},{"start":8766.653,"end":8794.995,"text":"那接著要談,接下來要談就是說王偉文企業差異那他講了一句話,包含林世民剛才講了一句話說我在在院長室的時候有時候談到其實院長來不來這可以討論但是呢,這是我的想法那院長堅持要來當然我們必須尊重而且這是現任城市的問題我為什麼要這樣講呢剛才剛才那個蔡宜宜有談到有關於"},{"start":8797.315,"end":8820.183,"text":"2013年5月31號快去我修正因為公教人員叫,找打一個叫那個案子是我自己在現場的,所以我最清楚那個案子的原因就是說曾經有一個庫裔,庫裔叫做黃世民天天要把人抓去關"},{"start":8822.143,"end":8832.192,"text":"要有關於大學教授、院長以及教授、助教等等他們的協助去申請協助的違反計畫但是呢"},{"start":8838.618,"end":8864.208,"text":"用假的錢用到以上邊去那其實這只是偽造文書而已他用南部智慧條例要把所有大學教授全國大學教授抓去關以南部智慧條例抓去關這何等大事啊所以我當時在我辦公室裡面常常有人來哭訴甚至坦白講一位大學教授翹樓自殺因為南部智慧條例是七年以上的"},{"start":8865.805,"end":8872.475,"text":"其實這個就是這樣的由來所以當初後來2013年5月31號的時候因為還連任黎世嘉找王院長那時候有親民黨還有我們"},{"start":8881.314,"end":8899.151,"text":"那台南林士嘉是一屆聯盟的秘書長台大院長楊半職教授他身上掛著所有的委辦計畫四億多科技多了柯恩哲只有十萬而已所以這個律師工業上必須解套"},{"start":8900.427,"end":8919.438,"text":"所以大家談好了我們也開過黨黨會議說這一定要解套國民黨也開黨黨會議說要解套李公子還跟我講說我說這個一定要委員會然後在院會經過正常程序不可以朝一朝這樣簽就算了所以大家走正常程序委員會的時候沒有人有意見沒有意見於是到院會的時候當然大家要簽名那時候我們委員長主持"},{"start":8929.246,"end":8949.602,"text":"台聯簽 簽我們兩人簽了 新黨簽了我和當初的幹事長是誰 潘文安書記長是邱怡銀我們最後才去簽在簽以前我們開過黨的會議告知每一個黨員的成員但是這裡面有一個就是說要為民進代表一起解套"},{"start":8950.68,"end":8975.837,"text":"因為國立計畫會,因為特別會都已經出罪法了那這個也已經出罪法,就是歷史公約所以民運代表的時候的助理費用也應該解套當初就是這樣子走下來所以通過以後柯文哲的案子也解套了因為他教授1450,他有10萬塊"},{"start":8978.442,"end":9005.865,"text":"大家知道通過以後第一個打電話給誰是打給柯文哲我說這個沒問題了那當然有很多民進代表也要解套當然解套就沒有今天的高安事件很多助理會的事情但是今天再也沒有辦法回溯了再修改也沒有辦法收集計畫所以今天要談的就是說有些歷史過程是這樣過來了"},{"start":9008.064,"end":9023.85,"text":"我們新竹也有因為這樣,這樣本來以為可以解套那被起訴120年,後來也抓去關當然合命之心,合命之心以後當然不到10年內,後來關了也出來了所以這個歷史過程是這樣的"},{"start":9025.307,"end":9052.722,"text":"那為什麼要談這個東西呢?用所謂的會計法因為我是在現場的人王崇士明那時候因為大家學長以後簽名然後叫行政拿回去再重新打一個案子回來因為行政的案子是供教漏打的大家以為行政送來一定不穩的就簽下去然後就王崇士明搞過了把教略漏掉"},{"start":9053.763,"end":9079.698,"text":"所以馬英九大家請我法人嘛請我法人剛才我那時候還講說中國市會原金標寫這套我錯了就是原金標已經抓去關了所以我們敢出於民意代表的事情所以請我法人的時候馬英九我把它停下來要提復議案復議案的時候當然少一個字而已再加回去這都沒問題所以剛才"},{"start":9083.146,"end":9094.681,"text":"蔡議員所提的就是如此其他所有的復議案全部行政長要來那為什麼行政長應該來呢我們要了解我們另外通過法案"},{"start":9096.004,"end":9121.25,"text":"要走富裕的行政要走因為法案預算自然難行的時候當然他要提復原然後來立法院說明說明要表決然後復原一定不會夠那他就必須付出然後對比付出然後送給總統去公告所以一定走這個法律程序的民進黨不可能不付出或是做違憲動作"},{"start":9123.103,"end":9138.437,"text":"報告我們都是謹守憲法的今天我要談的就是這個事情所以忽然沒有過行政長必須復組當然復組的時間當然他可以這個就是內閣制的精神內閣制的精神是什麼呢"},{"start":9140.72,"end":9167.327,"text":"假如說另外三名通過法案假如行政院認為認為說還有其他配套法案要重新要一起通過的話在下一次宴會的時候通過一期才送來這是可以的所以呢行政院長他可以當然可以可以賣可以他有有一定要一定要付出那今天不是說所謂的專案委員所談的"},{"start":9168.632,"end":9180.454,"text":"因為朝偉就可以不送出來所以這個差很多,意思差很多今天要談的這個先人理論另外一個呢,並不是所有事件都要走副業案子"},{"start":9181.576,"end":9200.242,"text":"事實上很多事件都沒有走負擬案子但是上次因為國會改革的時候上次當然總統的行政院以及立法院同時都是暫時出院以及釋憲其實很多法案都可以立法院直接聽"},{"start":9202.143,"end":9210.09,"text":"立法院行政院都可以直接提法提暫時處分以及釋憲這樣就沒有這個程序了所以兩條路是不一樣的我只要這樣說明你懂嗎"},{"start":9218.237,"end":9238.338,"text":"他們已經聽我講好幾次了我們都有親人教育然後呢這是什麼我們國大先生提示是什麼提示是混合制而且有總統制以及內閣制的精神所以總統制是什麼總統是負責國家安全其他就是內閣制所以內閣制上面"},{"start":9239.605,"end":9263.707,"text":"我們知道憲法五十二條行政院是國家最高行政機關當然他負責整個國家政策的最高他必須負責所以這內閣制的精神所以給行政院院長有如美國的總統一樣美國總統是他特別設計什麼川普對於國會送來法案他會為法案退回"},{"start":9265.305,"end":9281.957,"text":"所以內閣是用這樣的精神,他是行政院長,這件法案假如對國內有傷害,他可以不服輸我們今天看,你們連這個招委就可以不送"},{"start":9283.174,"end":9308.75,"text":"不送出來院長在新人體制上立法會所設計的當然他必須一定要附屬啦但是他附屬的時候要什麼時候附屬他一定會在適當時間一定會附屬所以各位放心不會違憲的今天我要講這個道理那今天其他以外我們要談的就是說關於林思明"},{"start":9310.191,"end":9329.817,"text":"因為所談的話,坦白講喔,你是寫法的人,要國立黨,但是金牌寫良情則無惡氣,你跑國民黨去的時候,你必須去國民黨亂講話,這樣你的律師資料會,人家不敢找你當律師。"},{"start":9335.422,"end":9339.095,"text":"人家到民進黨來,民進黨的好處就是,總而言之好笑"},{"start":9342.441,"end":9369.755,"text":"怎麼還沒說好小孩,包括那天的小牛也是一樣人模人樣的,留英國牛喜廷留英的,也是林鄭月娥說事那國民黨在害他,當他來講,警察在那邊挑釁所以他造狗練得很快,他因為一直在做排血,就是害死民族幼苗"},{"start":9370.922,"end":9394.761,"text":"所以國民黨整個黨要重新在思維上重新思考這個黨已經一百多年能夠有支持到現在還活著我都覺得是奇蹟但是各位不要擔心很快會走入歷史馬路化成一股青煙消失掉在這樣的情形底下"},{"start":9396.087,"end":9414.347,"text":"那今天我不是用這個機會在揶揄國民黨,我講的是實情,良藥苦口,你是好人啊所以包括吳征宅也是一樣,但是他聽得懂我講的話,而且他是值得respect的人"},{"start":9415.305,"end":9438.561,"text":"因為她講她說她的壯士在她來找我我說我一半時間在床上臥病但是我能夠下床的時候我已經找你她來跟我談我能仔細聽她講得很好而且她是個合理性會說話這個法案應該怎麼修我們比較能夠完善而且可以亂所以她跟大家一起照相嘛"},{"start":9439.501,"end":9462.836,"text":"這就是立法院一個國會的政治生態但吳征峰委員比較可惜,他過去媒體人,政治他不是很熟悉包括立法院的遊戲規則,乃至於法案內容,包括資源刑罰等等,包括憲政問題,包括公安問題他是說來立法院每天像什麼?你說來立法院每天像這樣講?"},{"start":9468.137,"end":9493.147,"text":"沒有,你說藍營有藍營,今天好像暴風雨啊那也是你可以在暴風雨找到一個鄰近你有藍營不是暴風雨,你有藍營裡面都是牛尾蛇腎但是哪一個講真話,你應該要看對面那一組就知道了對面這一組吳慈儀、蔡依儀、呂崑禎你看這個好像都尊嚴啊好像尊嚴"},{"start":9497.004,"end":9510.839,"text":"不會像郭文綺那樣親面咬牙然後然後呢今天我解密到最後要講同一句話這些話我都跟郭文綺講過我們今天所有事情都要解決"},{"start":9512.222,"end":9529.77,"text":"甚至簽一下草野協商你怕1月16號太急我們請1月14號給你草野協商 院長來簽讀我早上三點讀取怎麼讀取我教大家不是解一個就讀取那周環環理事長和那個醫術組長就知道這不太簡單就有了那大家要拼"},{"start":9532.546,"end":9551.475,"text":"協商到晚上12點也在協商,應該要趕進度嘛這個東西是一個技術性問題只要不懂的話,我們衛明很清楚,台東我給他看起來他是負責預算的,我們的預算中心主任所以這個很專業的"},{"start":9553.596,"end":9569.355,"text":"所以大家要有誠意,把這個問題解決我有跟副理講說,第一個哪一天要休會,你講就算數,16號就16號,把所有都完成包括閒罵、加一我提前表決就好,加二也可以"},{"start":9571.497,"end":9597.886,"text":"副議案哪一天我寫清楚14號也可以總運算要怎麼完成包括前瞻包括台電專案運算但是有一點我們之間有差異所以他不敢來面對我他說他有危機問一下我說我只有要求一點潛艦運算一定要讓他過不可以讓他干擾"},{"start":9601.077,"end":9622.626,"text":"這個東西假如你們沒有答應我很難面對我們黨主席變成總統所以假如這個沒有答應的話有可能破局只是這個問題而已他說他在這溝通他在溝通的時候我打電話給他他說藏起來氣泡檢討氣泡檢討很奇怪所以大家這個想一想"},{"start":9623.986,"end":9647.639,"text":"潛艦這個東西很重要保護國家只要國民黨把潛艦弄不見的話各位民意的反應會多大所以希望國民黨在這一地方能夠突破什麼時候就迎刃而解國會長長的話是一個非常誠懇我們都可以親下來16號就16號都如期完成"},{"start":9651.789,"end":9680.094,"text":"副議案前十四法沒有關係蔡偉昌唸過還可以不遵守法,不可能的事情嘛總預算如期完成總預算要加長審查那前瞻那個都要...院長我知道你很關心總預算跟這家預算所以你每次都要提出來但我今天就是說這個有裡面的一個名義告別那個很環雜所以可能那時候蘇家前院長常常做到晚上十二點"},{"start":9680.954,"end":9708.231,"text":"上個月起我們也是 主要這個地方七月十二 主要晚上十二點所以這些東西 都沒有問題包括拉法 選辦法 加一加二都沒有問題反正都要釋憲的 我們不會打架嘛我們從此以後 立法院都不打架我們重新來建立 重塑一個新的文化讓韓院長最遠變成民主的英雄"},{"start":9709.434,"end":9735.937,"text":"好不好讓海南黨得到應該得到的尊重Respect這是我一直在想朝野和解這是很重要好不好所以以上只是那一點大家可以想一想好謝謝柯總召等一下我再一分鐘已經講了四十一分鐘了我可以講四十四個小時但是我很簡單的講因為我常常"},{"start":9737.038,"end":9748.925,"text":"跟我們的團隊都很清楚這也是他們的挑戰所以所以我講的話我也不必代表我就這麼講清楚就是說大家想一想"},{"start":9750.117,"end":9767.888,"text":"保齡檢測才能夠迎刃而解這個東西米港處理好我們明天大家簽一簽那我們請韓院長李育謙副院長長他很尊重你的你也跟你們的黨主席朱主席講一下"},{"start":9769.049,"end":9798.082,"text":"這是對大家好啊假如破局的話我不知道國民黨能不能承擔這種這種把國家 國會國家都不要了連前任都不要了我相信國民黨很難承擔好 以上是終於希望你們不用膩了謝謝柯總召謝謝各位 謝謝謝謝您42分鐘只有我最專心聽你的真的 我憑良心講我眼睛都看著你的"},{"start":9800.456,"end":9822.491,"text":"謝謝大家,我本來想上次蔡議員書記長講的話我也很感慨希望蔡議員協商大家把自己意見表達完畢,黨團立場顧到以後黨團的理想性大家能達成共識,不要各說各話其實這個話就是我內心所想,總是希望我們花了這麼多時間今天馬上承認這麼多責任,總是希望能夠往好的方向發展"},{"start":9824.076,"end":9851.936,"text":"那很抱歉連續兩次協商到截至目前還是沒有辦法達成三檔的共識其實我是有點遺憾因為剛才一度曙光已經露出來了那本案沒有獲得共識我們就提送院會依議事規定來處理我們現在散會哪裡沒有共識啊 院長14號刑事復議案的投票在憲法的期限裡面還有時間啊 明天早上再來談"},{"start":9855.546,"end":9862.27,"text":"院長你根本就是有聽沒有進去耶"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2025010909","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"}},{"id":"16458","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16458","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6855e814c1e1875e51dad9f551ce5fa921f529fa0cca45d5627a9f5bdafaa4adf2c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會公聽會（事由：舉行「『兒童及少年福利與權益保障法』修訂如何落實『兒童權利公約』精神與原則」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2025-01-09","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-01-09T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-01-08T12:36:00+08:00","duration":-71655,"影片長度":"-19:-54:-15","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 - 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法以下簡稱本法兒少權法修法方向以及本部長年努力推動兒童權利公約來跟代會提出報告進行各位委員不吝會與指教"},{"start":2217.264,"end":2246.525,"text":"第一本法現況本法原名稱為兒童及少年福利法於100年11月30日修正公佈為現行名稱及全文歷經10次的修正最近一次係於110年1月20日修正公佈那麼在全面修正時已經融入兒童權利公約以下簡稱CRC的精神除了回應各界需求加強福利服務措施之外"},{"start":2247.762,"end":2276.675,"text":"并且以CRC为目标强调儿少发展权利资讯与文化休闲权利免于经济剥削权利等后续修正重点也包括强化儿少保护及居托人员管理机制增订儿少优惠以及友善措施6岁以下儿童死婴回溯及医疗器材短缺通报机制等等第二"},{"start":2277.711,"end":2292.274,"text":"本次兒少權法的修訂規劃藍圖為因應社會環境、科技及家庭結構變化各界高度關切兒童及少年權益之安全與保障"},{"start":2293.413,"end":2317.062,"text":"原依CRC精神來研修本法重新盤點條文的內涵章節與對應相關教育勞動法規修正重點涉及收出養製度兒少不當對待定義兒少保護與脆弱家庭通報及服務機制安置資源及管理兒少偏差行為預防與輔導等規範"},{"start":2320.578,"end":2336.202,"text":"本部自111年3月起及廣邀相關部會地方政府及專家學者召開計14場的研商會議那麼就修正條文的全責與脈絡代理新處在盤點全體系脈絡與論述修正於113年6月至12月"},{"start":2344.738,"end":2372.474,"text":"依凝聚修正草案再次請部會與地方政府就修正草案召開了15場會議的延商以其提出更為具體清晰以及可執行的修法架構以及內涵以利與各界交流及後續的立法作業第三新修兒童權法對於CRC的落實情形與具體規劃報告如下第一回應外界關注托育管理等議題"},{"start":2374.465,"end":2400.936,"text":"配合兒童托育服務法草案專法訂定刪除相關條文2配合實務需要檢討收出養的流程以及訂定申訴機制強化地方政府權責出養家庭無力照顧兒少者銜接政府福利與安置資源3納入身心虐待體罰霸凌性騷擾"},{"start":2402.967,"end":2428.46,"text":"不當管教等暴力侵害的態樣通盤修正兒少不當對待行為四 整合兒童保護與脆弱家庭通報及強化服務機制並就分流處理與服務方式來進行規範五 參考UN聯合國兒童替代性照顧準則調整以親屬第三人為優先安置順序"},{"start":2429.522,"end":2455.027,"text":"增列團體家庭之新型態社區安置資源 明定地方政府主管機關應為安置必要性之評估第六完善福利機構團體家庭 寄養家庭及客戶照顧服務班工作人員消極資格以及違法事件之調查處理機制預防兒童虐待事件 七"},{"start":2456.53,"end":2485.625,"text":"因應少事法修正確立各權責機關對於兒少處罰兒少偏差行為預防以及相關輔導機制事結與本部是整合政府機關意見後及啟動民間團體徵詢會議並詢法制作業辦理相關事宜本部呈大院各委員之指教及監督在此盡致謝程並其各位委員繼續予以支持謝謝"},{"start":2488.108,"end":2509.704,"text":"好謝謝次長那本次會開這樣子的一個公聽會主要是因為我們從100年就從兒少福利法後來變成是兒少權法那104年的確有因應我們在103年的時候兒權公約國內法化之後有稍微調修可是中間修正的不太好"},{"start":2510.728,"end":2529.464,"text":"然後加上沒有辦法去配合兒權公約因為兒權公約在2017年2022年就已經再度的國際委員來做審查所以我想聽取今天來的專家學者的意見那到時候再請我們的政府部門做一些回應來確保未來調修的方向事實上是"},{"start":2532.608,"end":2557.716,"text":"能夠去服應二全工業以外還有也能夠去服應目前實務上的需求那接下來我們就是本次會議呢部會及學者專家所提供之相關書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報那與會人員發言前我們先宣告以下四項也就是學者專家及本院委員每位發言時間六分鐘"},{"start":2558.82,"end":2585.673,"text":"那為簡報方便學者專家發言請到主席台右邊的發言台原則上由學者專家先行依簽到順序發言委員如果要發言的話請到主席台來登記那全部人員發言結束後再請行政機關做整體回應暫定十點半休息十分鐘那現在請登記第一位的也就是台灣"},{"start":2586.894,"end":2594.222,"text":"全國兒少安置機構聯盟秘書長廖四賢那接下來中華育幼機構兒童關懷協會研發組長陳旺德請準備"},{"start":2615.649,"end":2623.019,"text":"主席各位委員還有與會的長官各位夥伴大家好我是安志蒙秘書處廖士賢"},{"start":2624.972,"end":2644.905,"text":"安志萌对于这次修法的建议,首先我们认为替代性照顾应该是最弱势的儿少才会进到的场域。因为他们最弱势,所以原则上他们几乎没有什么选择,要么他们就是选择进到替代性照顾,要么他们就是登出这个世界,不是吗?"},{"start":2646.004,"end":2664.313,"text":"那所以我們過往常談兒少最佳利益可是如果這一群孩子他們終究就是要進到替代性照顧的話國家得先負起照顧這群孩子的道義才有資格進一步的談最佳性利益所以我們認為替代性照顧是兒權法中最需要被積極關注的面向"},{"start":2666.018,"end":2686.505,"text":"那接下來我們提到替代性照顧系統的重要性原則上我們得先從三個角度來看第一個是本質上替代性照顧兒少就是特殊需求與特殊處境的群體他們不是有手冊或者是相關的障礙才是特殊的兒少其實所有的進到替代性照顧的兒少都是特殊的兒少"},{"start":2687.185,"end":2716.525,"text":"他們因為在進到替代性照顧的體系中之前他們都已經反覆遭遇到各種不利成長的特殊處境或境地才會進到這個場域中所以他們都是有困難的孩子可是現有的資源早就沒有辦法滿足他們發展成長的需求會進到這個體系原則上從家庭學校以及社區都已經通通失能沒有辦法滿足他們的成長於需求所需可是在資源上面我們給的資源依然是一樣的"},{"start":2717.345,"end":2746.31,"text":"在替代性照顧中雖然他們可以獲得基本的照顧可是即使是這樣他們失去了很多包含他們可能失去了正常的人際互動自由生活的空間以及與家人親屬依賴以及相處的經驗所以我們需要加倍的資源投入與更積極的協助才有辦法給他們足夠需要的支持他們的需要遠比我們想像中的更多他們不只是本身脆弱甚至他們的支持環境也都是脆弱的"},{"start":2747.554,"end":2765.328,"text":"那在現有的法律規範上面在實務操作上面有什麼不足呢我們現有的法律規範其實是一個非常消極的規範我們常說安智爾他不可以沒有什麼什麼可是其實我們應該要重視的是安智爾應該因為他就是非常多的"},{"start":2766.729,"end":2784.582,"text":"痛苦以及脆弱的处境才会进到安置的体系那他应该需要更多什么什么可是这一些反而是现在的法律没有办法给予的因为我们的法律给的是不歧视于基础公平的分配我们只是在说我们要给他们而且不能不给可是我们却忘了"},{"start":2785.242,"end":2802.891,"text":"他們其實非常的脆弱他們應該要獲得更多才有辦法獲得正常的發展以及成長再來是我們需要積極的協助要在法規中明定額外的強化資源例如現在三網二點零有一個特殊加外兒少的支持計劃可是這一個進道"},{"start":2804.292,"end":2832.884,"text":"替代性照顾体系的儿少来说应该是每一个都要run过的我们需要满足他们满足儿少的成长所需并不是只针对所谓的特殊需求儿少而已那更往前follow的应该是补偿性正义我们需要知道的是他们因为许多的剥夺所以才会进到这个体系里面可是我们却忘了给他的不应该只是基础的应该要给他更多国家应该要作为更积极的家长应该是一个父爸爸而不是一个满足基本需求的家长而已"},{"start":2834.11,"end":2845.255,"text":"那在政策執行面的挑戰有哪些呢他們可能會說我們有兒圈法然後又設置了替代性照顧政策可是這個政策其實是一個非常模糊而且不具體的狀況舉例來說可能"},{"start":2850.658,"end":2874.8,"text":"各地方政府有做这些替代性照顾政策就是在社福考核上面有一些加分那没有做就只是扣分而已可是它缺乏具体的行政机制以及配套的做法那再来是资源的限制替代性照顾所分配套的照顾资源是不足以因应基础的照顾需求的直白一点这些孩子进到替代性照顾的场合原则上都是慈善机构撑起来的"},{"start":2875.461,"end":2897.977,"text":"那再來是相關的照顧配套包含多樣化的照顧處所人力現在也都沒有辦法滿足真正的照顧需要那最後是執行上的落差雖然我們知道把法規訂得非常仔細是不應該也非常困難的可是在現在文化還沒有提升到積極可以協助這些替代性照顧兒少的狀況下如果我們沒有訂仔細的法規"},{"start":2899.818,"end":2927.339,"text":"就是有漏洞就會鑽那更不要說就是中央政府與地方政府面臨執行流程能力與推動醫院不一致的問題所以我們認為在兒權法裡面應該要明定的措施包含安置前的評估應該要強制要求在安置之前就要做好家庭功能的評估那包含就是還有在安置前就應該要有個別儲育安置的計畫與跨專會團隊的決策那再來是最適安置原則我們不應該是"},{"start":2928.74,"end":2946.271,"text":"以那個親屬然後寄養然後團家最後是機構這樣的一個順序來排最暗示原則應該是要以台灣的經驗以及實務上可以做到的方式來選擇最適合而上安置的處所跟安置的原則那最後是我們應該要有一個預防與替代性"},{"start":2947.351,"end":2959.202,"text":"预防与调查替代性照顾虐待的机制譬如在美国的IAB计划里面他们就有明确的定定如何规范禁止不当对待以及建立特别的防护机制"},{"start":2961.94,"end":2982.525,"text":"那再來是兒權法與兒賽替代性照顧政策的互補關係兒權法是個硬法我的意思是它其實是有相關法則的可是替代性照顧政策並沒有相關的法則有做跟沒有做的差別可能就是在社會考核上有沒有加分或扣分而已可是它其實應該是要互相可以互補的"},{"start":2984.225,"end":3010.445,"text":"所以我們認為應該要增訂的法律條文包含照顧服務準則那以及應該要讓兒少在這個照顧服務的過程中佔有一定的角色可以被充分的理解以及聆聽的機會最後是我們需要有標準化的作業流程那修法的重要性包含法律應該要是這群兒少最後的防線那在法規中應該要給他們真正改變人生的機會以及我們應該要在法規中落實人權保障的各個面向"},{"start":3011.266,"end":3033.807,"text":"我們認為每一個孩子都有一個好好值得好好長大的機會那國家身為一個重要的家長應該要硬起來謝謝好謝謝我們的Leon秘書長現場又來一位專家學者先補充介紹就是國立斯坦大學社會工作學研究所的賴月蜜副教授"},{"start":3037.899,"end":3050.748,"text":"接下來就是我們的中華育幼機構兒童關懷協會的研發組長陳旺德那請中華中華兒童暨家庭守護者協會執行長周明勇請準備"},{"start":3054.113,"end":3077.803,"text":"委員各位主席委員各位各部門的長官學者還有學者專家大家早安大家好那我是中華育幼機構同官委協會陳旺德研發組長那同時呢也是一位在育幼院長大13年目前也是碩士畢業的理院生那在這過程當中就我的經驗"},{"start":3079.184,"end":3092.004,"text":"以及我過去參與這個實務以及研究的經驗我認為我們有好幾個關於下吸替代性照顧導摺等等的議題可以在這次的公聽會能夠提供一些見解跟想法"},{"start":3093.069,"end":3120.118,"text":"那首先我們先聚焦在夏希到底他有什麼樣的重要精神跟原則他其中提到了兒童應該在幸福關愛和理解的氣氛當中能夠成長那這過程當中人格能夠被充分的保障和和諧的發展那以下呢我就會針對於目前的兒少權法比較欠缺那也需要更完整建制的就是所謂的兒少最佳利益的原則以及兒少表育權"},{"start":3121.178,"end":3145.678,"text":"那兒少權法第一個我們想問的問題是到底兒少權法保障的是誰的利益那我們當然第一章我們整個法律第一條他就指出要促進兒童及少年身心健全保障權益正義福祉很清楚的可以看到確實我們是為了保障兒少的權益可是事實是如此那兒少最佳利益是什麼他到底保障的是誰的利益誰說的話算"},{"start":3147.499,"end":3153.061,"text":"這都是我們很值得在新法要融入我們現在對接的過程必須去思考的問題那他有提到就是當一下決定措施或政策牽涉到不同主體權益的時候兒童權利具有一個優位性那這個優位性應該反映在國家的司法、立法、行政三權上面"},{"start":3166.744,"end":3172.228,"text":"而且要涉及到兒童個體行動面向如戰略方案計劃預算舉措等等的都應該被充分考量可是公約他採取的是一種優先的考量並不是一個至高的考量這就變成在很多的議題上面就有一些爭議因為他可能也當他有不同的利益在同盤在考論過程當中他可能並不是一個唯一被必須被優先考量的比如說公共秩序等等的議題有可能在這個過程當中"},{"start":3195.585,"end":3224.595,"text":"使得儿少最佳历被排序在后那我们就看到很多案例都可以看到说整个儿少最佳历在实践的过程当中很大的冲突比如说像这一个被紧急安置紧短的家庭他所呈现他所居住的环境原本我们认为儿少法把孩子带到一个安全的处所是应该让他可以健全成长替代性照顾环境没想到他进去的地方是身上的衣服必须全部换掉只能从机构里挑真正的衣服穿"},{"start":3225.267,"end":3241.941,"text":"然後進到了這個房間裡面空無一物監視器還對準房間然後有架設鐵窗和窗台沒有未借的物品有水但半夜沒有食物然後過程當中前三天你還不能跟任何原本住在機構的孩子互動"},{"start":3242.521,"end":3263.148,"text":"要下團體還要先抄家規不抄就是繼續睡單人房然後要簽名很多不逃跑聲明的等等的切結書那能出門上學的就不能和不上學的互動見到面還需要迴避好不容易才認識同機構的朋友就被有沒有上學決定了友誼是否繼續存在"},{"start":3263.948,"end":3267.41,"text":"然後呢比如說要吃藥的問題讓人覺得很心疼鴨屋也會笑得比較重有的時候呢還不是因為被醫生診斷而是當方面只有我們專業者的自己的資訊師傅也會跟他們一直盯著他們吃藥不吃藥他當然自己甚至也覺得我不吃藥我真的睡不好那乾脆自己吃重一點讓自己麻木"},{"start":3288.104,"end":3306.596,"text":"所以我們就在我孩子都在想我每天都在想也在害怕我以前朋友會不會忘記我我每天都在想我做錯了什麼因為這個法律讓我必須要住進在這樣一個地方這個地方是適合我們兒少最佳力發展的環境嗎但我們也看到就是在機構裡頭的教養也提到了因為機構的院生他因為呢犯上家反家的時候超時家務拖延不打掃手機使用超時然後呢為告知"},{"start":3317.242,"end":3327.411,"text":"使用私有物品等等的違規事項被一點一點的扣分扣到低於生活表現60分的時候就被建成競價不能外出而這項規定是由兒少們雖然是由兒少們自己討論的可是當他競價的時候他提到了"},{"start":3332.555,"end":3352.453,"text":"下周末是小峰母亲的生日他相当渴望能和母亲团聚可是在过程当中到底要不要让这个孩子跟母亲团聚他现在被生活扣分扣到60分进家不能外出那这背后就反映了到底我们儿少最佳历是保障谁的利益那儿少最佳历在过程当中去做权衡"},{"start":3353.394,"end":3366.984,"text":"那我們也看到14號一般意見書就有提到了很多關於兒少最佳利益動態性的原則那我們必須要去思考是究竟我們這個兒少最佳利益是依據何種什麼標準是以兒童的利益來做勘考嗎"},{"start":3369.446,"end":3393.154,"text":"那過程裡面我們必須看到就是一個很重要的評判原則他就有提到第一個很重要的就是兒少要沒有能夠發聲表意的權益以及維護他的家庭權益家庭保障的聯繫那所以在過程當中要有申訴機制國家的資源要進來要能夠調查研究有培訓機制甚至有一個兒少權利的影響評估這也是非常重要必須在法條裡頭做進一步的盤查好好整理的"},{"start":3397.557,"end":3416.925,"text":"那過程當中我們看到兒少表意權這邊有12號意見書也提到了要能夠參與參與的過程當中他就是一項法律必須要直接保障的權利而且過程當中兒少不需要說一定要對一切事物都有了解他只要跟他自己相關的他都能夠表達自己的意見"},{"start":3417.825,"end":3439.193,"text":"然後呢對啊在過程當中都能夠影響其本身事務能夠去聽其意見那最終呢我們必須要知道說當安置機構必須要有一個上安置憲章的時候我們就需要有一個完整的申訴機制還有能夠去保障他們的一個以家庭社區為基礎那我們認為國家層級應該有一個國家安置憲章能夠去保障整個安置替代憲章國的權益以上謝謝好謝謝我們的陳鳳德組長"},{"start":3445.202,"end":3471.258,"text":"那接下來邀請我們中華兒童暨家庭守護者協會執行長周明勇那請中華民國兒童福利聯盟基金會副處長李鴻文請準備那我先補充介紹因為又來我們有一位專家學者台灣家長守護護幼權益協會的陳珍景顧問好歡迎你好那也麻煩我們的周明勇執行長"},{"start":3473.44,"end":3502.097,"text":"好 長官各位先進 大家好好 那我這邊在一開始的時候想要先請教一個議題就我們現在在修法的時候大家真的扪心自問請問目前台灣的兒童他到底是不是我們中華民國很重要的未來的政策跟對象他到底是還不是因為我們在實際上執行的時候假設我們的國家認為是我們國家認定的未來的公民我們是否在看待他們的時候要去思考他們的成長環境究竟為何"},{"start":3502.817,"end":3515.427,"text":"那我們必須要說的是在我們實務現場常常看到是我們公部門的中央跟地方在橫向連結的時候常常有一些落差那我們會發現有時候兒少我們在實務現場看到是兒少很多時候是全國的兒少"},{"start":3517.511,"end":3535.336,"text":"應該說很多時候兒少是在各地方政府之間的兒少而不是全國的兒少以安置機構或者是我在服務一般現場的時候我發現的是只要孩子轉戶籍他有很多資源是不會跟著他的轉安置他不會跟著他的他是跟著他的戶籍走而不是跟著他該去的地方去比如說從台北到花蓮"},{"start":3536.016,"end":3561.885,"text":"那他的不管是特交資源或者是議會資源等等資源不會跟過去他只會有安置費過去那我們在過去其實監察院也已經糾正好幾次所以我們會看到是可能我們在中央跟地方執行的流程與推動意願上是不是在我們修法的時候能夠去注意到這個點特別是剛剛前面有幾位先進提到他目前沒有罰則所以只有靠考核的力量其實很難有中央監督地方或者協助地方督促這個業務的發展的傾向"},{"start":3563.906,"end":3583.341,"text":"那另外一個部分是我們發現的是假設我們的國家認為兒童的成長環境是很重要的那到底是不是家庭式如果是家庭式以剛剛那個衛福部所報告就希望能夠增加這個家庭式的安置嘛那既然是家庭式我們是不是應該回到家庭支援的這個部分以目前政府的家庭支持度其實是不夠的"},{"start":3584.403,"end":3613.955,"text":"那我們也看到雖然我們有所謂的家庭教育法可是我們的家庭教育法什麼時候才開始執行其實很多人都是在婚姻之後他才聽到怎麼養家怎麼建家我們必須知道台灣已經從農業社會轉工商社會尤其現在要進入金融時代我們的家庭支持本來就薄弱國家是不是應該已經看到像我們這幾年在講少子化的問題可是實際上孩子的問題是越來越多為什麼因為家庭支持的力道越來越不足夠我們可以發現以客服班為例客戶照顧班現在很多"},{"start":3614.595,"end":3636.858,"text":"縣市政府都有在學校辦理可是不是每一個學校都能夠每次抽到簽資源豐富的縣市政府有資源豐富的縣市政府是你要抽簽下學期不一定抽得到那有一些人是去不了的特別是單親隔代為什麼因為學校是6點就下課他們可能9點才下班所以他們面臨的是什麼他們只有兩個選擇一個是到更貴的私人補助的"},{"start":3638.039,"end":3660.627,"text":"機構去讓孩子安心在那邊可是呢他們有這個經濟能力的話他就不是弱勢了所以他只能做什麼獨留實際上的獨留是這樣子產生因為我在學校沒有辦法說的只好讓孩子掛著鑰匙回家或者是下課後請把孩子帶回家就放著這也是為什麼我們這幾年一些家庭照顧的疏失會越來越多為什麼這些家庭沒有資源那這些資源應該是政府該提供的吧"},{"start":3661.38,"end":3683.082,"text":"另外一個部分是我們常常沒有提到就在國民教育裡面我們常常講營養午餐似乎是已經是個福利可是實際上對弱勢家庭來講那是他唯一的營養來源那麼我們現在有很多的營養都是外包給廠商廠商外包之後OK他可能會照表宣科的做了一些系統上的部分可是實際上孩子吃到的菜請問教育部多久會檢查一次"},{"start":3683.703,"end":3711.064,"text":"他到底實際吃了什麼 他的蛋白質夠不夠他的鈣質夠不夠 青菜多樣嗎還是因為廠商要成本下降 利潤最大化而沒有人去管理或者是每次調查的時候都有人事先通知以至於其實孩子每次吃的菜只有調查那天最好所以這些現象其實都是政府可能需要去查看那另一個部分是我們發現實際上目前的安置機構評鑑制度它其實有個很大的問題因為我們也參訪了一些國家 包括日本"},{"start":3711.624,"end":3738.251,"text":"我們的評鑑制度是不透明的所有的評鑑建議都沒有辦法溯源我們豬肉都溯源了雞蛋也溯源了可是所有的評鑑建議沒有辦法溯源那我問了之後其實有一些其他的兒少的團體在接受評鑑之後也有類似的現象也就是我們常常聽到第一線的抱怨委員所建議的是第一線不能執行的可是第一線必須按照委員所建議的重新翻盤不管了不能執行所以最後會有一個狀況是目前有很多情形是我們發現"},{"start":3739.471,"end":3763.745,"text":"等DU等的機構照顧出來的孩子其實有非常多是受苦的可是他們的文書表面功夫形式主義做得很好那我相信這個東西只有透過透明化這件事也就是孩子也能夠看到委員的建議我們也能夠看到每一個委員的建議是針對機構的什麼指標而且是提出具體可行的方案不是我今年來跟你講裝鐵窗下一次來跟你講說你裝鐵窗不自由"},{"start":3764.545,"end":3794.185,"text":"不是這樣的委員好 拜託因為我們我們其實民進一再唱一首可以讓委員多一些實務經驗的人來操作好 那再來就是而上申訴管道的部分我們也發現實際上它沒有獨立管道我其實在協助幾個單位或者是機構在做申訴的時候我們發現實際上我們會走政府內部管道這個是一定要先走的可是它沒有一個叫做外部管道截至目前所有外部管道申訴到中央中央就發回給地方政府重查結果就是地方政府卡住了呀"},{"start":3795.425,"end":3818.457,"text":"實際上去年的案例就很清楚到現在地方政府都還沒有裁罰機構可是他的吹哨人已經被裁罰了這就是下一個問題常常我在跟衛福部開會的時候長官們都會跟我說你可不可以提一些案例我實在不能提案例因為我們有太多民間團體敢在正式以案例的方式提出申訴當下的問題解決了但是民間團體被秋後算帳"},{"start":3819.657,"end":3836.215,"text":"這個是事實所以這樣的一個文化或者這樣一個想法我覺得包含我們可能在訂立這個條款的時候是不是吹哨人的條款應該包含在未來的兒童的政策裡面去讓任何人為孩子說話的時候不用害怕這部分是應該要被考量進去的"},{"start":3838.004,"end":3852.313,"text":"那最後我還是要特別強調就是實際上要保障弱勢而受的教育權剛剛因為教育部還沒報告我看了一下教育部的部分其實有幾個點是重要的因為我們在第一現場發現越弱勢的孩子真正學歷是低的"},{"start":3853.45,"end":3869.49,"text":"像我自己在過去在服務的過程我發現只要盡按照孩子只要偏差行為10個孩子有3個文盲卻沒有中錯記錄意思是我們現在中錯後追其實形式化了那孩子畢業的時候竟然可以只會寫自己的名字他加減乘除我們從頭交我們從頭交"},{"start":3871.653,"end":3888.993,"text":"他已經國一了意思是現在的快樂教育或者所謂108課綱是不是請教育部回頭去檢視所謂的受教權不是孩子進到班就叫受教權完成百分之百是他進了班今天的課堂他至少學會百分之八十"},{"start":3889.694,"end":3912.739,"text":"那如果他學不會是不是有任何補救的方式來協助他學會不管是用課後班還是用特別教育班還是其他的民間方式或者是從學校的源頭就開始調整因此我要回到另一個部分就是我們常在講快樂學習或者是人本學習可是實際上課師只要超過15個孩子他就沒有辦法做這些事所以為什麼這麼多弱勢孩子被丟掉"},{"start":3913.439,"end":3939.588,"text":"因為課師要趕進度要趕學習檔案要趕學習歷程像最近民間我們也常常在講政府應該有個指標可以去看就是民間怎麼販賣這些學習的東西其實都表示這是我們在教育制度上歧視弱勢的地方現在學習歷程你可以用30萬60萬請人幫你買可是一般家庭的孩子或者甚至是弱勢家庭的孩子他們有機會去學才藝去學唱歌跳舞去爭取那一切的上進的可以讓他"},{"start":3940.328,"end":3958.526,"text":"就學更順利的證書嗎 其實是沒有的 那就表示我們的課綱其實正在排除這些弱勢的家庭跟孩子謝謝好 謝謝我們的鍾明勇執行長 好 我們補充介紹財產法人中華民國更生少年關懷協會的謝忠業主任歡迎你"},{"start":3961.305,"end":3968.702,"text":"接下來我們邀請中華民國兒童福利聯盟基金會副處長李鴻文緊接著就是我們的立法委員陳金輝 謝謝"},{"start":3972.736,"end":3996.304,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位先進 大家好很高興今天有這個機會來參加我們的公聽會那我想因為今天時間比較緊湊我就把握時間來講重點那我想台灣的兒童福利法的法制從民國62年開始的兒童福利法通過到現在已經超過50年的時間了那陳文剛主席說的我們2014年CRC的適應法通過那我們現在我以下要分享的內容是代表"},{"start":3997.544,"end":4014.254,"text":"因為兒夢這邊跟很多的在場很多的兒少團體我們在111年就開始組成一個民間的修法聯盟所以有些的一些意見今天時間的關係我可能摘取一些不同年齡層的孩子的一些權益來講那跟前面重複的我就跳過那我想第一個要提到的就是一個育兒的議題"},{"start":4015.174,"end":4040.841,"text":"那我想我們大家知道去年農年的生育率還沒公佈但可能會創下最低的一個狀況那我們的CRC也第18條有提到說國家有協助家庭育兒的這樣的一個義務那其實現在不管是衛福部來說我們也有推動所謂的育兒指導的服務但我想大家看一下我們的鄰國日本做的一個狀況大家看一下日本呢他們有一個全國實施的叫做嬰兒家庭的家訪計畫它的俗稱叫做Hello Baby計畫"},{"start":4041.761,"end":4066.838,"text":"那它是都道府縣全部實施那實施率達到99.9%也就是說它針對家裡面有4歲以下嬰幼兒的這樣的育兒家庭會號召公衛護士、幼教人員、助產人員還有育兒經營的一些相關的專業人士來進到家庭說到宅的方式那台灣有沒有呢?也有只是說我們覆蓋率沒有辦法像日本這麼的高所以這樣一個部分有一個很大的目的是為了了解"},{"start":4068.5,"end":4096.197,"text":"這個親子的身心狀況了解他們的育兒環境當然某種程度也在做一種兒童保護的初級預防的概念所以這部分我們覺得非常值得在台灣來推動因為我們的生育率這幾年比日本還要更低所以我想具體的建議是這個禮拜立法院剛通過了一個壯世代政策與產業發展促進法那你們當然提到壯世代的定義是年滿55歲以上有工作能力有工作意願的那所以我們認為說如果把壯世代跟育兒制度這件事情做點結合也蠻好的譬如說"},{"start":4097.017,"end":4126.167,"text":"不同世代的這個有經驗的這些壯士代的朋友們可以傳承自己的育兒經驗給下一代那也增加現在我想百行各種行業都在缺工所以壯士代如果也可以成為育兒指導服務的人力的選擇的話這也是一個增強生力軍力的機會另外就是說去發展一個在地的跨代互助跨世代互惠的一個在地育兒支持網絡我們覺得這樣的一個社區化的工作是非常值得來推動那這件事情連動到就不只衛福部包括今天在座的勞動部的部分"},{"start":4126.767,"end":4149.925,"text":"所以我們的具體建議就是說未來兒少法的修法建議除了把育兒指導服務全面入法之外也可以擴大到剛日本的經驗是四個月以下的嬰幼兒我們希望擴大到目前所有的六歲以前全齡前的幼兒的部分那如果說短時間的人力上沒有辦法立刻到位我們可以漸進式的從透過評估的方式有需求的優先這樣的方式來做那人力的部分呢除了現行的我們衛福部號招待專業人員之外呢"},{"start":4150.766,"end":4172.093,"text":"開始採訪日本的制度特別是已退休的一些有參與過兒童照顧的幼教這些相關的包括公會體系所以這是一個跨領域的事情來做那當然也就需要勞動勞政單位提供更多的誘因讓壯士再給大家投入這樣的一個育兒指導的部分但我要前提是他經過培訓也要經過篩選這個部分是一個對血淋前幼兒我們覺得普及是可以做的部分"},{"start":4172.893,"end":4190.06,"text":"那再來我想提到見到雪凌之後我想台灣的孩子面臨就是一個大家都會上網所以我這邊提到一個是額蒙德調查發現說我們台灣的兒少呢不會面臨被騙財騙色騙個資的一個所以來自於虛擬世界的一個危機那今天在座有速發布的夥伴的長官那我想這邊提一下一些"},{"start":4191.94,"end":4212.478,"text":"第一手的調查的數據那在騙財部分我們發現在2023年的調查我們發現有大概22%的孩子曾經在網路上被詐騙的經驗包括買到一些可能廣告不實的商品那更嚴重的是可能去霧點的釣魚或者是詐騙的網址然後因而被詐騙的這個情況那這個數據我想細節大家可以看這個這個PowerPoint的部分"},{"start":4213.218,"end":4236.088,"text":"那騙私的部分我想就更嚴重了那我們做了一個年度跨年的調查在2020年跟2023分別是疫情前跟疫情後我們看一下我們的孩子表示說有兩成的孩子他們有遇過網友提過一些特殊的要求那特別比較嚴重的就是網友要求孩子提供裸露的私密照就是性私密影像的部分這個比例大家可以看到從疫情前的三成六到2023是五成"},{"start":4238.109,"end":4266.469,"text":"要求dating要求要見面交往的比例也從4成6增加到將近6成所以這個數據是因為這個調查是一個針對兒少部分做的調查所以我想這是一個令人擔心的一個狀況另外甚至有孩子說有5%他承認自己曾經傳過自己的裸照給網友或是說有一成的孩子說他有收過看過他認識的同學朋友的裸照所以這都呈現一個狀況是這個還是孩子自成的問卷那如果有些不敢分享的一些經驗可能這個黑數是更多的"},{"start":4266.989,"end":4286.921,"text":"那另外在聘課資的部分我想這個會非常重要那有四成一的孩子曾經給過陌生網友課資包括他的個人的LINE啊姓名的部分等等個人照片這部分都是一個危機所以正因為這個情況我想除了網路素養教育之外教育部要推的部分之外我們也希望未來可以一個全國的兒少網路專責單位增加教育人力的部分"},{"start":4287.441,"end":4309.056,"text":"那這邊可以接近的是CRC就是在2021年公布的第25號一般心理建書這邊去強調企業的責任包括怎麼去預防孩子在網路上遭到侵害那國家也要透過立法去確保數位服務跟數位產品的一個責任那特別是強調業者要有所謂的兒少權利的影響評估那這邊我們具體的建議就會是希望兒少法案能夠增加"},{"start":4309.996,"end":4333.985,"text":"業者網路風險評估的義務包括說我們通傳機關定期邀集各個部會來評估公開哪些的網路風險是對還是有害的那業者要去做成主動風險評估的義務然後報請主管機關被查那另外風險評估的內容會包括哪些有害而受生間的內容發生的種類跟頻率等等那重點是會增加業者主動移除不是現在現行是被通知然後然後再移除這個部分"},{"start":4334.665,"end":4360.744,"text":"那最後一部分,抱歉,那這一塊是偏差少年的部分我想這一塊跟少式法的接軌我們發現現行的法規對於偏差兒少的福利服務規範不明確那很多處罰少年在離開少小校之後呢他可能因為在轉型入學的時候會遭到一些拒絕的情況所以我想CRCD實施條約提到說處罰少年有所謂的復歸社會這樣的一個權利所以不管是在就學就業以及所有的系統的一些界階的部分"},{"start":4361.024,"end":4386.128,"text":"我想我們相關單位都有責任所以我們會具體的建議在兒少法的內容我希望能夠建議增加一個兒少復歸計畫這是很多少年團體在跟我們討論提出來就是說哪些內容包括家庭關係的修復生活的重建就學輔導身心輔導跟心理諮商那另外在跨網絡的他的就是處罰少年離開少小校回到自己的社區之後那個轉型復學計畫希望我們跨部會的教育部社政法務一起來做特別要組一個"},{"start":4386.728,"end":4405.862,"text":"轉型復學的教育計畫也成立一個委員會去落實我們處罰少年不會被拒絕入學的情況那最後一點我想這部分就是說今天提到說要不要推動兒少政策綱領等等這些部分我覺得這些都很好但我們現在苦於的部分就是說內政部兒童局被裁撤之後我想兒少的業務非常的龐雜但是沒有一個專責單位"},{"start":4407.003,"end":4435.939,"text":"我想我覺得這個部分是行政院在107年我們官網上面的一個圖是我們現在總統時任的是那時候賴清德院長還有我們總統在副秘書長的時候參加民間的一個會議他承認同意說可能要成立一個行政院層級的兒童權益的委員會那這是當時總統還是院長所做的承諾那我們覺得今天我剛講的三件事情不管是學齡前的育兒指導然後學年兒少的網路安全的防治以及處罰少年這樣的一個相關權益的保護都是跨部會的"},{"start":4436.579,"end":4462.604,"text":"所以可能不是現在我們的機制能夠運作所以我們希望說在行政院層級可以照當時賴院長和現在賴總統他承諾的部分可以成立一個中央層級的專責單位來去回應很多兒少的權益跟需求以上 謝謝好 謝謝李鴻文副處長那緊接著陳金輝議員還有林慧華社團法人台灣兒童權益聯盟的秘書長請準備"},{"start":4464.612,"end":4491.427,"text":"謝謝主席安排今天這樣子的公聽會也謝謝這麼多專家學者還有官員們的出席剛剛已經聽到非常多寶貴的意見那也跟各位學習到非常的多我是立法委員陳金輝同時也是不孕症還有婦產科醫師陳金輝那為什麼對這樣子的議題特別重視是因為像在我的臨床過程很多寶寶是經過好幾年的奮鬥才生出來的而這些父母會不斷的帶他們回來探望當初這個"},{"start":4492.908,"end":4516.097,"text":"向我們幫忙的醫師所以我們會在過程中一直聆聽到這些小孩可能會面對到的問題包括剛剛講到太多了包括剛剛講到的托育啊或者是網路啊或者是說他之後的課後輔導以及我們來自不同多元族群所誕生的小孩可能會在學校所面臨到的排擠霸凌等等的"},{"start":4516.577,"end":4530.109,"text":"所以我對於這一類的議題非常的關心那當然我也從不同的視角就我本身的專業去提供我希望未來我們可以納入兒少全法的一些修法重點也希望跟各位專家學者"},{"start":4532.111,"end":4551.352,"text":"這個重視程度一致的地方我們也可以共同來推動那很開心今天可以一起討論這樣子的修法方向那第一剛還沒有人提到是我對於未成年懷孕的議題在我職業的過程中可能住院醫師的時期就常常接觸到未成年懷孕這樣子的"},{"start":4552.233,"end":4567.95,"text":"那當然到現在我也很關心那我會覺得在台灣性教育還有性健康議題一直沒有好好的做出一個成熟的修法或者是在教育方面去著重那根據CRC第二次國家報告中"},{"start":4568.49,"end":4586.205,"text":"委員會針對我國給予的結論性意見第49條就寫到我國仍有相當數量的少女懷孕婦產科醫師常常是未成年兒少懷孕應對的第一線所以我跟許多我的同業常常在開會時就提到分享我們在急診或是醫療現場遇到的兒少懷孕狀況"},{"start":4588.807,"end":4615.498,"text":"其中很有感的就是我們對於性教育還有健康教育的觀念不足在學校也沒有辦法好好的落實台灣目前的未成年懷孕人口比例在過去十多年間從千分之四到千分之三幾乎維持一定的比例我希望大家可以重視偏鄉跟我們城市的一個很大的差別因為其中台東跟花蓮等等地區在過去五年間的統計"},{"start":4616.818,"end":4642.019,"text":"在未成年的這個區塊也就是15到19歲的這個區塊會出現千分之十或千分之十一的生育率相比比如說台北是十倍之多那每一次這樣子的懷孕就影響到這些孩子的未來受教權還有工作發展等等的權益那他們這個跟偏鄉跟都市的差異就會越來越大也因此我們需要政府更謹慎的去協助這些偏鄉的"},{"start":4645.041,"end":4664.541,"text":"兒少女們減少未成年人懷孕的情形接下來兒少全法的修正中也應該要思考如何以法治的層面去保障兒少受到可以保護他們的性教育現象措施以及後續懷孕兒少的支持服務以及監護人的教育措施等等那第二呢是一個"},{"start":4666.323,"end":4686.741,"text":"其實是越來越嚴重的問題但大家一直避談或者是假裝看不到也就是我們黑戶移工寶寶的議題那這也是我在臨床的過程中常常會遇到的我們這些移工朋友懷孕後會因為與仲介公司還有雇主的權利不平等被強制解聘回國我們統計從107年以來從28%到前年上半年高達80%也就是說"},{"start":4693.767,"end":4716.926,"text":"五位怀孕的移工里面就有四位会面临解聘的威胁所以这些怀孕的移工最终很多人会选择逃逸而孩子就成为了黑户宝宝儿少权益公约第七条规定儿童出生后应该立即登记并自出生起有取得姓名与国籍的权利自CRC国内"},{"start":4717.546,"end":4744.134,"text":"法化以來呢 移工寶寶議題仍然沒有辦法去解決先前質詢勞動部時部長也回應目前這些黑戶寶寶數量眾多難以計數顯示我國法規還不完整才導致移工子女成為黑數陷入嚴重的人權保障困境現行兒少權法第22條提及兒少因依法享有社福醫療照顧就學權益等保障"},{"start":4744.634,"end":4770.317,"text":"但多數的黑戶寶寶仍無法享有與其他世界兒童相同的照顧現在移工的子女面臨的問題是法規的保障看得到但是吃不到這些孩子因為我們現有的國籍政策而成為人球顯示這些所謂的依法保障權益在落實層面上有非常大的進步空間而照全法的修訂方向中應該要考慮如何解決上述問題"},{"start":4771.458,"end":4788.803,"text":"協助黑戶寶寶不再被攝服漏接享有兒少嬰友的照顧權益那最後呢要呼應剛剛李洪文專家所提到的剛有講到這些網路的性犯罪等等那我自己是三寶媽但常常也擔任他們校園霸凌委員會的委員"},{"start":4790.423,"end":4809.945,"text":"這樣子的出發點試著談校園與心理的議題因為網路的普及率越來越高所以會面臨數位成癮以及數位霸凌等議題造成現代兒少不斷升高的心理需求還有未成年的自殺率這個未成年自殺率是到了令人觸目驚心的地步"},{"start":4810.586,"end":4829.177,"text":"台大曾經出版過這個網營手冊裡面指出在過去的實證研究而言現實的無力感包括心理支持現實的挫折感與難以取得成就感等才是孩子們轉向網路的關鍵從網路成癮中衍生出來的心理健康需求"},{"start":4829.777,"end":4858.642,"text":"是我們政府面對新世代的兒少問題要更積極照顧的權益CRC同樣針對我國兒少的心理健康提出關心希望政府更重視年輕人的心理健康狀態和疾病對兒少透過剛剛三讀通過的學生輔導法承諾更多的資源來做心理支持但兒少權法針對兒少的心理健康卻沒有全面正面的保障只有針對我們特定族群的處遇措施"},{"start":4859.222,"end":4885.843,"text":"未来希望在修法上也应该全盘思考如何正面的纳入心理健康作为政府保障的儿少基本权益以上是我针对我个人的专业所提出的一些切脚跟看法希望未来可以多多跟大家一起合作谢谢好 谢谢我们的曾经会议员那接下来请我们林慧华副秘书长然后请我们的台上盟的副秘书长请准备"},{"start":4895.766,"end":4919.182,"text":"主席然後各位委員還有現場各位先進早安我這邊是台灣兒童權益聯盟剛剛其實在前面聽了蠻多大家針對各種議題的這個分享那兒童聯盟因為從103年成立到現在其實我們真的就把焦點一直很放在我們的公約然後孩子的主要的權利上面那今天我大概就會從四大原則的"},{"start":4920.543,"end":4948.333,"text":"方向來切入稍微談一下是不是我們現在的兒權法怎麼樣跟這個公約可以有一些接軌那還在哪裡存在一些問題提供給大家參考其實四大原則我想我們今天既然要談這個接軌大家應該對公約有一些基本的理解有四個主要的原則那我們先從最佳利益這邊來看公約裡面提到的最佳利益的履行它其實有兩個重點"},{"start":4949.733,"end":4955.657,"text":"第一個就是公司機構團體的在執行各種對兒童會產生直接或者間接影響的這種各種措施程序的時候我們都必須要考慮這個最佳利益那看起來這個部分我們在現行的兒權法裡面我們確實有在第五條的規定裡"},{"start":4968.906,"end":4995.278,"text":"提到了我們要做就是要做這個以兒少最佳利益為優先考量看起來有接軌但是我們會發現在第二個重要的義務裡面所有涉及兒童的司法還有行政決定像前面仙靜有提到的包括在安置的議題收出量的議題我們要做這些決定的時候我們是不是真的確定我們都有考慮到兒少的最佳利益包括"},{"start":4996.218,"end":5008.723,"text":"我覺得很大的一個重點是我們怎麼判斷怎麼去評判最佳利益那過去這幾個月我有參與到這個衛福部正在修的這個收出養的法規的時候其實就是發現一個問題我們確實不斷的"},{"start":5012.424,"end":5036.48,"text":"宣之於口的就是我要注重這個最佳利益但是在實際的執行上我們其實還是會很容易忽略就是我們可能會討論到這個想要把孩子出養的家庭有什麼樣的需求但是到最後我會發現當時正在討論的這個收出養評估報告裡面何以在兒小的對於這個他即將被出養的這個決定"},{"start":5040.703,"end":5048.275,"text":"好像沒有他的聲音在裡頭表現裡面沒有他的或者是說最後發現只有一格"},{"start":5049.662,"end":5078.398,"text":"就是一個框框寫著他是不是就是他對收養的想法是什麼那前端我們到底怎麼怎麼評判的這個最佳例有很多的要素需要考量的所以看似接軌但好像在執行上還有一些問題我想也許我們在接下來的修法可以再處理一下那在表議權的部分兩個面向實質權利跟程序權利現在我們的兒權法一樣在第五條的第一項後段有提到"},{"start":5079.858,"end":5099.189,"text":"對我要尊重他的意見依其心智成熟度權衡他的意見但這個理念看似結果我們也發現孩子是不是真的感受到他被傾聽了那他的知情跟回應在這個內容裡面其實是沒有看到的那更大的問題出現在哪裡這個程序權利就是我們其實蠻缺少"},{"start":5102.711,"end":5121.877,"text":"就是當孩子的權利遭受到侵害的時候我們在現在的這個法裡面好像漏了這個在行政程序上可以申訴的規定那我剛剛有聽到我們的次長有提到所以我們在那個安置的部分我們會把申訴訂進去那我想不會只有安置這件事情"},{"start":5123.858,"end":5140.394,"text":"這個申訴有沒有存在 或者他在這個處理申訴的過程中 他是不是得到好的協助是不是友善的 這個在表議權的行使上 我想這個新的兒權法要好好的思考這個部分那在生存權的部分要提到幾個 就是"},{"start":5141.395,"end":5160.39,"text":"剛剛也有人也提到說這個其實CRC的國際委員會非常重視這個台灣的兒少的心理健康自殺防治那在自殺智商的這個結構性因素其實我們現在真的沒看到那就是舊的兒權法裡面針對兒少心理健康跟自殺防治的條文其實我們也沒看到"},{"start":5161.05,"end":5175.308,"text":"那跟性命有關的事故傷害防止也只有第28條的這個定期的協調會議一樣就是看似接軌但是定期等於不定期那食物上呢我們還在死因回溯條文裡面又把自己"},{"start":5176.389,"end":5204.409,"text":"限制在6歲以下 那我們如果很難在 很難研究出而上自殺自傷的這個結構性因素我們何不透過這個死因回溯 我們好好來瞭解現有的個案 他們到底發生了什麼事情為什麼要自斷臂膀不做18歲以下的 這個我想要再提醒一下那免受歧視的部分在現行兒權法裡面 我們也還沒看到條文那"},{"start":5205.595,"end":5224.168,"text":"第二次國際審查的時候我們有提到各項就是應該要列出來的就是在法規範裡面要不得其時的一些理由希望在新的兒權法裡面我們也可以把它訂進來那最後其實在提綱中有看到就是我們需要想想看兒少基本法跟"},{"start":5224.989,"end":5243.06,"text":"而是要政策綱領這兩件事情那基本法我覺得當然可以思考那政策綱領的部分我其實看了一下現在台灣有的政策綱領譬如說像性別政策綱領看起來比較多是掌握跟順應社會脈動的一些趨勢那意義上更像是在聚焦一些特定的議題"},{"start":5244.181,"end":5251.824,"text":"那跟我們現在正在訂定中的這個NAP就是兒童權利國家行動計畫還有結論性意見的行動回應表我不知道這個中間的差距或者重疊是怎麼樣我想這個是很需要思考的因為我記得我在出席這個NAP計畫的會議的時候有不斷聽到一個聲音是NAP有在做的那就是應該是說行動回應表在做的我們NAP就不做了"},{"start":5272.23,"end":5283.084,"text":"就是他有一個這樣子的排除那我們的政策綱領的定位到底是什麼我想這樣值得思考一下那最後這個比較具體回到這個修法的期許我希望"},{"start":5284.546,"end":5308.301,"text":"這些剛剛提到的四大原則這個部分會有具體的條文來接軌兒童權利公約的精神那很多的燒議題其實是涉及跨部會所以權責機關的就是明確跟權責的劃分也希望被考慮進來再來因為很多的實務像剛剛前面很多先進提到了各類的議題實務上的困境有一些真的要不要定的這麼細"},{"start":5309.301,"end":5328.456,"text":"還是說我們真的很明確每一件事情需要更具體的工作原則指引的這個部分我們都會提醒把授權執法都訂進來方便就是讓大家都不會漏掉這些需要實際工作實際操作的一些參考那以上是全盟的說明 謝謝"},{"start":5329.81,"end":5339.235,"text":"好 謝謝我們的林慧華秘書長那接下來台少盟的副秘書長然後請家福的蔡文錦主任請準備"},{"start":5353.42,"end":5376.971,"text":"主席然後各位先進大家好我是台灣少年權益與福利促進聯盟的副秘書長優佳就是台少盟在想說如何從兒童權利公約的精神CRC去落實這件事情我們會從兩個大的議題下面來跟大家做一個建言第一個就是數位環境下的兒少挑戰那第二個就是青少年的勞動權益好"},{"start":5380.132,"end":5406.702,"text":"大家可能會想說數位兒童數位環境下這件事情其實它是一個新興的議題那其實我們目前有觀察到現在的兒少權法其實是難以回應這些青少年這個數位環境下的新興議題怎麼說因為兒童權利公約的精神它不只包含生存發展禁止歧視最佳利益與尊重意見等原則那我們認為它在修訂新兒少權法當中應該要納入"},{"start":5408.242,"end":5436.623,"text":"聯合國兒童權利公約定期發表的一般新意見書那特別是在第25號跟第26號當中作為修法依據參考那我們剛才在講說就是現在這個新興議題其實涵蓋在數位兒童數位環境中的隱私保障兒少的身心健康啊氣候邊牽下的兒童最佳利益都是重要的但是其實還是要再次強調就是其實目前在兒少權法裡面是沒有涵蓋到這個部分的"},{"start":5438.39,"end":5455.384,"text":"呃我們都知道是說環境的提供是為了讓兒少可以有更多的學習跟參與的機會但是他同樣也帶來一個問題就是隱私與各自保護不當的內容啊網路霸凌啊及身心健康的問題那分別在2017跟2022年NGO的平行報告指出呃"},{"start":5459.4,"end":5476.443,"text":"而是要在網路上的隱私保護薄弱那數位平台的濫用跟個人資料的現象其實是很普遍的呈現那網路平台能怎麼做就是把它刪文而已好所以我們建議就是說這次的修法他應該就是要"},{"start":5477.403,"end":5499.333,"text":"納入25號一般性意見書的核心精神整併現有的44到46條條文將數位環境的議題納入特別是針對數位環境中的使用權及保護權進行平衡規範而且也要確保在限制使用的時候要大量參考兒少的意見要納入這些權衡的機制裡面"},{"start":5500.362,"end":5526.34,"text":"那同樣之下我們除此之外我們也想要在推動在包括家庭啊學校的平台合作也確保創造一個友善數位的環境那除此之外我們也期待跨部會可以有一些合作的機制舉例來說行政院應該可以督導教育部數位發展部衛福部等那制定數位環境政策要求數位平台落實的自律機制這件事情不是只有媒體自律這件事情"},{"start":5527.14,"end":5554.102,"text":"那除此之外我們覺得應該學校要將數位素養跟數位安全這件事情納入正式課程裡面教導兒小負責任的使用手機那家庭的應該也要強化去陪伴這些事情的責任避免只有單純禁止這件事情那針對在這個題目上面其實我們不要害怕兒小去接近數位環境那政府的責任其實是建立一個健全的數位環境並提供相關的指引"},{"start":5556.175,"end":5578.353,"text":"那再來第二個我們想要講的就是說青少年的勞動權我們會說看不見的挑戰我們主要是想要覺得是青少年勞動教育應該是要加強的部分對因為其實未成年勞工在職場的茶喝機制其實比較的是薄弱那特別是在職場中的性別或是經濟剝削的議題"},{"start":5579.881,"end":5598.755,"text":"最近大家應該比較會有感的一個一起是麥當勞的女員工受害的案例其實我們可以很清楚的看見到這件事情青少年因為他有一些經濟壓力或是生活需求他必須要進到工作環境那因為也是因為年輕很輕所以他碰到一些困難的時候他不知道應該怎麼樣向外的"},{"start":5599.395,"end":5628.553,"text":"去求助除此之外其實在2022年其實2023年的時候我們其實有很多未成年人因為犯罪集團的招募去到柬埔寨啊杜拜等等的地方去做一些犯罪的活動包括電信詐欺啊新剝削啊勞動力剝削然後所以其實後來最終其實有修正了一個叫做組織犯罪條例的條文啦對因為我們想要深入的討論說為什麼青少年會落入到這樣子的一個圈套裡面"},{"start":5630.031,"end":5636.939,"text":"那其實我們目前的勞動教育跟落實的部分其實還有些不足的部分"},{"start":5638.526,"end":5663.803,"text":"我們勞基法規定15歲未滿15歲的人不可以去打工可是在年輕人有一些經濟需求的時候導致其實會僱用這些人的工作其實都是不守法的僱主那有一些他可能會去投保不投保的工廠啊市場工作或是小池灘那比較嚴重他乾脆就會去當車手啊或是送毒小蜜蜂啊詐騙等等工作去做那所以其實他們很難去被討論到勞動權益這件事情"},{"start":5667.062,"end":5693.356,"text":"那隨著就是說其實我們青少年從社群媒體找工作這件事情其實是一件補片的現象我們現在不管他合不合法這件事情可是他是一個從社群媒體找工作是一個現況對那所以詐騙安茲也隨之去擊審所以根據警政署的統計啊112年少年嫌疑人當中有兩成是涉嫌詐欺罪那近年其實我們剛剛前面有提嘛很多人都有被虐打等等事件悶頻傳"},{"start":5694.677,"end":5717.064,"text":"那其實台少盟長期之前有倡導的一個勞動教育促進法其實遲遲都未能夠通過那其實會導致就是青少年缺乏一些職場基本的知識那進到職場之後可能會因為經驗不足會遭受到受傷跟剝削所以我們呼籲相關部門應該要趕緊可以去加快這個部分那行政院應該要督導部會去參考國際勞工組織的經驗去你相關的"},{"start":5722.185,"end":5737.229,"text":"一些政策這樣子好那最後就是我們也期盼就是說大家可以建構一個更友善數位的環境跟勞動環境然後讓CRC這件事情大家可以一起更好謝謝好謝謝我們張優佳副秘書長那我們請蔡文錦主任那馮橋嵐指定長請準備"},{"start":5747.496,"end":5765.891,"text":"主席委員各位先進那以下家福基金會想要就是針對兒少權法的修法提出大概就是我們有三方面的一些的想要跟大家進行交流那一個是有關於兒少權益的保障跟兒少身心的一個發展跟促進"},{"start":5766.952,"end":5794.092,"text":"那我們也在關注說我們兒少權法其實我們已經國家朝向有CRC這樣一個精神那只是說我們會看見說權益的面向裡面有關於兒少健康那比較放在就是身體的這個方面那一樣我們跟前面的委員一樣有一些關注是有關於兒少的心理健康的部分那心理健康應該不只是關注孩子的一個自殺或者是憂鬱"},{"start":5795.373,"end":5817.16,"text":"那因為我們長期跟貧窮的家庭工作裡面看到也是我們統計我們輔助的家庭裡面就5%的人她曾經就是說在她是之前是她現在是媽媽可是她其實是在未成年的時候就已經懷孕了那尤其是16歲18歲我們都可以看見有這樣的一個"},{"start":5818.22,"end":5841.347,"text":"家庭 那我們現在在協助的少年裡面的話 我們也會看到有未成年懷孕的一個議題 那其實影響他們是終身的可能都是經濟的一個弱勢者那當然也包括他們的孩子也都會牽動影響 那你們也看見我們國家的孩子裡面的話就是有關於孩子未成 就是未成年懷孕之後然後離開校園大概有"},{"start":5844.888,"end":5864.674,"text":"我們從CRCDH國家報告書裡面的數據有看到兩成五的孩子是沒有回到校園的那他們哪裡去 有沒有人協助他們我想這都涉及心理健康的一個問題當然我們也看到一些特殊的兒少跟特殊的家庭 比如說身障家庭"},{"start":5866.014,"end":5880.919,"text":"那那個身障家庭這一個部分的話就是孩子部分有可能成為兒少照顧者那或者是家裡有不只是身障身心障礙的一個家庭裡面孩子是過得是還蠻辛苦的"},{"start":5882.68,"end":5898.767,"text":"那所以有關於心理健康的部分的話我們國家要著力的其實我們在想說是不是在兒少全法裡面可以多一些的琢磨那另外的話有關於個資隱私的部分那孩子的家長或者是一些媒體或者是說"},{"start":5900.808,"end":5929.927,"text":"其他的人都可能會不小心把孩子的一些個資隱私做揭露那在我們國家裡面兒上全法是不是可以多著力一些的保障那另外有關於勞動權益的部分我們確實也看到我們有很多孩子16歲之後他可能就成為勞工了那這個部分的話經濟上的一個剝削那是不是我們應該可以多著力關注的那我們關注一些不法侵害像是教育人士或者是說"},{"start":5931.328,"end":5952.321,"text":"有關於那個孩子的照顧者 托育人士那是不是有一些不法侵害的對象我們其實還沒有更多的著力規範像是雇主那我想我們知道有一些勞動法規是有在做一些的關注的可是在二上全法裡面那我們可以關注些什麼呢那我想這個部分也是我們想提出來的"},{"start":5952.901,"end":5971.449,"text":"那另外有關於數位的這個侵害對孩子來講已經生活中社群他們是很重要的部分或者是他們資訊來源的自主的這個資訊當然是很重要可是不法的業者那就是說是不是除了一個加害人之外那業者"},{"start":5972.529,"end":5995.771,"text":"業者他們的角色是什麼呢那在我們兒童權法裡面是不是也可以多一些的著力讓我們孩子的不法侵害可以有一些的就是說處理那另外的話我們也針對就是我們國家保護的這些的孩子裡面我們也在思考是不是有一些侵害可能不是來自於其他人而是體系"},{"start":5997.012,"end":6021.985,"text":"那像我們也觀察到說有安置的孩子裡面家裡就是說這些孩子本身的話有身心障礙狀況的因為我們全省各縣市的家福的計量你們發現有四成到六成的孩子是特殊兒童也就是說身心障礙或者是有一些身心那個障礙疾病等等的那我們發現說"},{"start":6023.266,"end":6039.386,"text":"有這麼高的層數裡面 孩子是這個狀況的當然我們國家提供很多的安置的這個協助 像增強計畫 精進計畫那連健康家庭安置的這個機構都需要這樣的一個協助 更何況他的原生家庭"},{"start":6040.107,"end":6064.613,"text":"就是說照顧這樣的孩子是不容易的可是這個孩子是因為這個因素被安置嗎那是不是他家庭需要一些協助那我想這個是在保護的系統裡面我們可以為家庭做些什麼那不是孩子要安置那你有沒有看到說有關於出養的孩子那我們有做了很多的出養的受出養的建置機制跟管理那有關於被"},{"start":6066.153,"end":6088.207,"text":"就是監護就是說政府監護多親的一個孩子他的出養的就是說越早出養處理其實對孩子是好的可是沒看到說他拖延時日是蠻久的甚至可能換不同的一個兒保的主要主事者的時候他的就換了一個政策那沒看到說實務現場上對這樣的孩子的處理的積極作為是"},{"start":6091.869,"end":6108.456,"text":"不夠的 那在我們兒少法令上有關於說出養那是不是政府就是已經是就是監護的孩子我們可以有什麼樣的積極作為那在我們兒少權法是不是有可以有更多的一些的關注那"},{"start":6109.895,"end":6126.765,"text":"另外的話就是法令上的一些的相關法令的橋接我們樂觀其成那也覺得說應該有一些的整合其實是會比較好的那其實有關於政府其實我們已經看到已經在落實CRC的一些的"},{"start":6127.705,"end":6140.393,"text":"就是是不是可以有一些的行動回應其實也在朝你一些兒童權利就是兒童權利國家人權計畫那甚至有定期的檢視一些法規那也做一些兒童權利的影響評估那我覺得這個是好的只是他的落實狀況是如何"},{"start":6147.117,"end":6167.054,"text":"那若實然後能不能遵守實踐其實現在才是很重要的一個問題那另外的話我們國家其實已經有11個基本法了那甚至我們也很早就已經有家庭政策也不斷地是在做修改那其實兒少的權益無非是跟家庭也有很大的一個關聯性"},{"start":6169.416,"end":6180.542,"text":"那這部分裡面是不是會有一些跌床駕屋或者是說應該有更明確的他的方向是不太一樣那我們也想說在這裡提出一些的一些提醒 謝謝好 謝謝我們的蔡文錦主任 那請我們的馮喬蘭執行長那請陳芬妮教授準備"},{"start":6192.5,"end":6200.804,"text":"大家好 我是原本教育基金會執行長喬蘭我們今天就這個兒權法的相關修訂的思考提出三個面向來"},{"start":6203.154,"end":6223.259,"text":"第一個是這也算是老話重提啦每次有人本出現就會講說讓我們終止一切形式對兒童的身心暴力吧我的臉就寫這個終止一切形式對兒童的身心暴力那我們必須在這裡再繼續重申因為今天談兒權法不談這件事情我們心裡面也是過不去啦那我特別要提的"},{"start":6223.739,"end":6242.822,"text":"提的部分是說為什麼我們會不斷地談這件事因為事實上終止一切形式對兒童的身心暴力它是我們保障所有兒童權益的基礎包括剛剛很多先進提到的四大原則今天在有兒童的身心暴力的威脅的狀況之下兒童的表意權是無法被保障的"},{"start":6243.923,"end":6256.073,"text":"各位不要以為說兒童的身心權利兒童的身心暴力受到身心暴力所受到傷害只是說他表現出晚上做噩夢啊好害怕啦退縮這樣而已還包括他會表現在不斷的福音權威"},{"start":6257.816,"end":6281.596,"text":"也就是只要是掌握資源的人 掌握威權的人講的話他不會不聽 不敢不聽 甚至他要複製跟他講一樣的話所以今天我們談要明文規定禁止對兒童一切性暴力行為的思考要放在同時保障他的表意權 他的生存權 他的發展權他的遊戲權 他的休閒權 這樣的思考上來想而不只是想說兒虐"},{"start":6282.799,"end":6305.433,"text":"這樣的思考而已這是為什麼我們一再提出來那當然在提出這個相關的這個性侵暴力要禁止的這個相關條文的時候呢一定會討論到說那我們如何可以建立一個有效的輕職教育的資源系統這也是我們不斷提出來的因為在我們在大前年我們所做的一個問卷調查當中也會發現說其實加上說有配套措施的話"},{"start":6306.974,"end":6326.833,"text":"支持或支持贊成立法禁止體罰的家長其實有八成多也就是大家的條件是說我沒有很想要爭取要打小孩啊但是可不可以有相關的支援系統包含喘息服務等等的可以提供給家長支援那在我們思考法律的修訂的時候同時把這個部分"},{"start":6327.313,"end":6350.981,"text":"思考進來我想前面的先進有提過類似的題目就是關於親子教育的資源的部分怎麼處理那另外一個就是關於那個法規的相關的配合修訂的問題我覺得會這是會是一個大挑戰因為在我們在行政院兒權小組討論相關身心暴力的討論的定法定法律的時候那其實呃政府部門會提到說我們可以把這一切的呃重要的關於精神暴力的禁止啊等等要放到兒權法當中"},{"start":6352.682,"end":6375.182,"text":"但是呢 我們的相關其他部會的法規的思維是否跟兒童權利的思維是一致這是值得挑戰的譬如說教育法規可能有些他的思維模式是我們行政單位的需求而不是你兒童權利的需求當我們碰到他的法規跟他思維模式是行政單位的需要我們作為管教權的需要等等的時候那你兒童權益怎麼進來"},{"start":6376.523,"end":6392.844,"text":"兒童決定思考怎麼進來這會是一個很大的挑戰我會覺得在後續的這個各部會的協調當中相關法律的修訂當中這會是一個要納進來思考的題目那當然透過家庭教育等等宣導來協助大家我想這是一個普遍大家都會覺得需要的事情"},{"start":6394.205,"end":6412.891,"text":"所以這是關於兒童的那個身心抱怨的部分我們所提出來那這個我就跳過第二個我們會提的面向是與兒童工作者這個也是人民教育基金會已經我們大概也倡議了一兩年的題目就是在我們處理非常多校園裡頭的性侵案還包括"},{"start":6413.311,"end":6426.852,"text":"後來不只是校園裡頭還有校園外的性侵案的時候有發現說有非常多的case發生在這個孩子他也許在營隊遭受性侵害性猥褻而這個性侵害他的人因為他不會在所有的法規當中列入記錄"},{"start":6428.243,"end":6452.01,"text":"所以今天營隊邀請他來擔任瑜伽老師 擔任體操老師但營隊的主事者並不知道說他曾經有親親過其他小孩這在營隊當中發生 然後在台中棒球教練的事情也發生這個棒球教練 他這一次被舉發 而且已經開始 也是進入司法了他性侵性猥褻球員 他在多年前就已經性侵性猥褻未成年者了"},{"start":6452.93,"end":6482.326,"text":"可是他是還起訴處分以至於大家不知道最後他又成為學校的棒球教練又委屈了非常多的小孩子那在這個狀況之下到底我們有怎樣的機制可以來設法讓在已經在其他不管是各項不同的司法刑法性平法或者是兒少法當中他已經有相關的紀錄的人他不要成為與兒童的工作者這是我們所提出來的與兒童工作證制度"},{"start":6482.95,"end":6504.995,"text":"那你也可以把它叫做兒童工作者的安全稽查制度就是要跟兒童工作的人要經過一個安全的稽查那這個制度當然就台灣來說是一個新建立的一個內容那我們有提出相關的我們對法條的思考在附件裡頭也歡迎大家可以參酌那最後把握一點點時間就是我談那個"},{"start":6507.876,"end":6523.305,"text":"關於自殺的部分這個剛剛前面也有朋友提到了就是說事實上在上次我們自殺防治公聽會的時候也提過這個議題就是我們在相關的這個死因回溯的這個內容當內容是否可以在法律上直接就修訂了我們就變成是0到18歲"},{"start":6525.97,"end":6543.067,"text":"而不要只限在零到六歲那因為這個相關的調查 相關的了解對於我們如何進一步有更積極的政策 是非常的重要那我們在上次的公聽會有提出來在監察院其實至少有四個關於自殺案子的調查報告"},{"start":6544.388,"end":6559.86,"text":"我這個調查報告當中每個內容都很值得我們參考怎麼樣處理 怎麼樣對話 怎麼樣輔導 怎麼樣處理高壓環境裡面的各種危險的因子那這一些還是需要透過法律授權讓我們可以正式進行青少年的這個兒少自殺事件的回顧調查 謝謝好 謝謝我們的馮喬蘭執行長"},{"start":6565.066,"end":6582.524,"text":"那等一下在我們的陳芬妮教授發言完畢後我們就休息十分鐘來歡迎我們的陳教授好謝謝主席各位專家學者還有長官大家好那我是國立台北大學社會工作系教授陳芬妮那我想我收到的提綱有三個"},{"start":6584.325,"end":6603.814,"text":"主要也是二少法跟所謂的CRC它的對接還有跟其他法令的一個調解是否要訂定兒童政策綱領或是基本法那其實就很簡單因為時間有限就很簡單的國內有基本法基本上都沒有類似的法案所以其實我覺得基本法是可以不用了這個"},{"start":6605.054,"end":6624.985,"text":"我們的兒少全法已經足夠了那我想可能從比較上位的角度去看這個法的修改如果從聯合國的公約的原則第一個其實是要維持政府在要強調政府其實是在維持人民權益的角色那這一點等於後面還會再提到那第二個就是強調一些統計資料還有一些調查資料報告的一些建制"},{"start":6628.667,"end":6656.013,"text":"第三個是還蠻重視的是所謂的多元交織性就是兒童是不是有因為種族或其他的一些因素不會只看兒童而是看到譬如說單親家庭或是弱勢家庭脆弱家庭的一些兒童他的一些不同的處境最後一個其實就是CRC就是兒童權法是否是弱勢的CRC的精神其實第一個可能我們要我可以提供的是說政府的承諾夠嗎我記得前面有一個學者講說"},{"start":6657.173,"end":6679.361,"text":"我們真的有認真想要做跟兒童跟家庭有關的一些工作嗎我們放的錢夠不夠我們付出的力量夠不夠那過去其實有兒童局的時候它其實有比較多的統計資料那自從兒童局這個收掉以後其實我們在找任何跟兒童相關的統計資料都會非常的零碎而且不連續"},{"start":6680.601,"end":6707.221,"text":"那大概只有我們就是鵝哨這個調查的一些相關資料而已那另外剛剛當然也有一些人提到說是不是有很多的工作其實是跨部會的跨部會的那我們的層級到底夠不夠如果今天主要是放在外部部的話他有辦法交得動其他重要的機關重要部會去做槍端的工作嗎那其實如果我們跟那個OECD的國家比較的話那就會發現說我們國家"},{"start":6710.404,"end":6727.584,"text":"佔給有子女家庭的國家的福利的比其實只佔了GDP的0.61那OECD國家平均是2.4所以我們是倒數第二個但是我相信後面因為我們有家的准工作或其他的工作以後"},{"start":6728.157,"end":6749.186,"text":"其實是會上升一些的另外一個就是說如果我們跟亞洲國家比我們其實沒有太低我們其實就是可能跟日本差不多可是跟其他先進國家來比的話我們政府其實給子女的現金補助現金的transfer就是相關的福利其實是占比是非常低的"},{"start":6751.007,"end":6777.862,"text":"在公立的教育的部分如果跟其他OECD國家比較一樣是最低的我們佔的是GDP的2.8那其他OECD國家平均的話是4.5我們比較多是放在所謂的初級教育跟中級教育高等教育只有0.7所以說其實現在大學的話自己想辦法去賺錢因為國家的教育資源其實是非常非常有限"},{"start":6780.224,"end":6804.672,"text":"學習教育其實也不高我們在占比的話台灣大概是GDP的0.34OECD國家是0.70可能也要注意就是說所謂OECD國家其實也不見得是多先進的國家很多是在中南美洲或是其他國家占比的人還是比台灣高所以說我們政府的資源到底放到哪裡去兒童真的是他們所重視的嗎"},{"start":6806.311,"end":6823.733,"text":"那我想就比較重要的是我可能很廣泛的去談說現在兒權法的一些可能的問題第一個是很難實施啦它很瑣碎就一般以前律師跟我講說他看了所有的法規裡面我們社會政策的法規是最零散的"},{"start":6824.514,"end":6832.083,"text":"它其實總共有118條所以我們把所有每次要翻修的時候都把所有時事都翻進去那其實它其實是細則化的所謂的兒少權法它其實是更上位的法它其實指導的應該是一些原則的東西而不是這麼細索的東西"},{"start":6840.674,"end":6856.832,"text":"太細磋的東西其實應該到細則去另外另訂法規那有些東西是很難實施的譬如說43條 期在合理的時間之內然後所有的父母兼護人他必須要禁止兒童使用所有的電子產品那什麼叫做合理的時間"},{"start":6858.013,"end":6873.041,"text":"那這個事情發生在家裡請問你怎麼去罰家長就是說是有罰款的可是怎麼罰家長那另外就是說我們的兒童其實是規範在18歲以下那請問18歲確定父母親有辦法管得動這個18歲的"},{"start":6877.313,"end":6896.064,"text":"兒童嗎第二個就是說我們在兒童權法裡面其實蠻重視父母的權責罰款罰則有多少但事實上那個CLC裡面是很重視政府的原則所以它其實這不太符合CLC的精神它應該是對父母是要有輔導跟支持"},{"start":6896.644,"end":6916.615,"text":"其實父母要學習當父母譬如說民權法其實是取消了父母的懲戒權其實CRC並沒有這樣的原則我們的所有的做法其實都是違背的第三個就是CRC跟國情是不是可以融合我們真的要把法律帶到哪裡去其實法律是會帶動我們的文化"},{"start":6917.876,"end":6937.141,"text":"今天修了這個法我們其實是會改變的但是我們把這個兒少權法這麼的細索化然後把CRC的精神都放進來那有沒有什麼東西是我們跟我們平常國情是不太符合的其實在河南的研究裡面也會發現說其實法律是會改變人家我們生育子女的一個態度"},{"start":6938.181,"end":6959.182,"text":"抱歉而且他的觀念其實是非常老舊的譬如說這個保護的法令譬如說我們在茶室要管兒童是不是在茶室內其實都已經非常久以前的那個什麼救援除寄的那個精神仍然在裡面50條規定說孕婦不可以抽菸可是家裡其他人都可以抽只有孕婦一個人不能抽你吸二手液還是一樣的"},{"start":6960.183,"end":6979.929,"text":"所以另外就是說其他是跟少子化比較有關的少子化其實我們都以KPI為導向確定所有兒童生活在所有家庭裡面都可以好好長大嗎有沒有考慮到兒童生存發展權那其實也是CRC的原則那我想就不耽誤大家的時間謝謝給我這個機會謝謝好 謝謝陳芮林教授我們現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":7002.115,"end":7003.336,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":7590.632,"end":7612.11,"text":"好 那就麻煩大家就座我們就繼續針對今天的主題請各位專家學者還有委員繼續來發言那我們下一位發言是今天的主持人也是最關心我們兒少權益的未還的林月琼委員我們就請這個委員開始發言"},{"start":7618.086,"end":7619.627,"text":"很高興今天很多公民團體還有政府部門為什麼辦這個我剛剛前面有講過就是因為從"},{"start":7631.368,"end":7647.937,"text":"變了兒少權益保障法之後然後103年又是我們的兒權公約國內法化那我們始終事實上修訂的幅度不大因為101年是為王浩條款修訂了我們的兒少權法第54條增修54條之一那到104年是因為兒權公約的在103年國內法化之後"},{"start":7654.441,"end":7672.218,"text":"的確有調修一部分到107年有對交通權有一些部分是有增訂的那在108年因為額內的事件不斷的發生之後的確建置了死因回溯機制還有針對於司法介入的一些調查系統和"},{"start":7673.052,"end":7686.584,"text":"我們的不適應人員的一個諮詢系統跟我們的托病中心的監視器還有甚至針對不當對待提高罰則到109年有針對早產而重病那還有因為配合我們的"},{"start":7688.314,"end":7703.984,"text":"所謂的民法針對18歲就成年所以有一些調修文字之後大家就沒有再動那的確有權公約四大原則要貫穿這50條主文裡邊所以也希望我們自己的未來事實上是"},{"start":7704.444,"end":7726.336,"text":"用兒權公約的概念底下也要符合這四大原則啦可是我們看到問題點是什麼目前的現況就是缺乏完整且健全的兒少死因回溯機制那這在我第一次進入立法院的時候的總諮詢我就有提到我們明明基本上在兒少死亡更高的叫做"},{"start":7727.437,"end":7749.214,"text":"少年這一塊 結果我們定到6歲以下那因為如果以兩個死亡最高的第一個就是交通事故結果我們的交通事故13歲到18歲事實上是未成年無照駕駛未成年無照駕駛的傷亡 尤其是無照駕駛我們的社會成本非常的高一個人死亡大概1600萬 那受傷181萬"},{"start":7752.25,"end":7780.832,"text":"所以整個整體算下來成本很高可是似乎我們事實上是沒有去做這一塊那針對於自殺15歲到24歲事實上是第二名可是10歲到14歲是第三名可是一樣的我們只做6歲以下所以在總諮詢的時候本來就期待說可不可以在法還沒修的時候至少先把交通跟自殺先做到18歲以下而不是6歲以下6歲以下的確居家的傷亡裡面事實上比較高"},{"start":7781.192,"end":7793.808,"text":"可是真正死亡更高的還是在我們的少年這一塊所以在這次我們都希望能夠針對死因回溯的機制可以調高到我們的18歲而非是6歲以下"},{"start":7797.074,"end":7813.931,"text":"還有一直以來我們大概就一直希望期待那個倡導事故傷害的機制齁能夠去建置可是現在鬆散未能發揮時效只有在一個28條裡面去訂定半年開一次會過去我們在民間就期待他事實上要能夠"},{"start":7815.325,"end":7843.728,"text":"跨部會的確來了跨部會可是常常只要事實上是衛福部去主政的跨部會其他的部會來的位階都非常的低所以沒辦法去做很好的協調也沒辦法發揮實際的效應更何況96年就有兒少安全實施方案可是多年未修正這也是希望衛福部事實上要盡速來做處理但的確現在朝向方向是以傷害別來調整以事故傷害為主"},{"start":7844.212,"end":7867.683,"text":"可是從105年之後指標沒有再修訂以外另外也沒有每一年滾動式檢討那我們更重要的是我們希望有完整的事故傷害的監測數據因為要知道原因才能夠拒絕死亡才能夠掌握傷害可是一直以來事實上我們都沒有辦法拿到事故傷害的監測數據"},{"start":7868.885,"end":7890.426,"text":"好在我進入法院之前也就希望說如果死亡你有數據那受傷呢事實上我們現在最嚴重的還是受傷受傷那至少住做到住院到現在我們還是沒有辦法看到如果八成都有急診都有登記的話應該要朝向這個那接下來更重要的是是不是可以把所謂的"},{"start":7891.829,"end":7901.083,"text":"重傷也納入 不見得有的住院 那甚至更進一步的話 我們事實上希望輕傷也能夠去納入"},{"start":7903.886,"end":7930.934,"text":"前面當然也有很多的夥伴就是民間夥伴是講說我們的新興數位世代下的耳哨困境第一個哥從我們的黃子嬌事件裡邊創意私房或者是觸感空間都知道個資是配合一起賣的所以網路上非常容易透露出孩子的個資可是我們事實上是沒有像國外有一個個資的公部門來做申訴"},{"start":7931.584,"end":7957.723,"text":"我們現在只要處理到各自大家都進法院這也是我們比較欠缺的還有網際網路欠缺一些管理跟裁罰的具體規範英國、美國也好甚至澳洲針對於賺錢的那一方叫做可能是Google Meta反而他們有被要求要去做管理可是相對的事實上針對於我們的網際網路的管理反而事實上是懲罰受害者"},{"start":7958.786,"end":7983.657,"text":"叫受害者自己去做心理諮商怎麼不是前端去做管理這也是我諮詢多次我希望我們部門事實上可以做可是問題就來了就是說過去兒少全法那時候數位發展部還沒有訂定所以我覺得兒少全法為什麼不合時宜因為目前我們已經有數位發展部所以現在兒少全法呢私權規範分工不清就會造成"},{"start":7984.312,"end":8002.544,"text":"我們的各權責機關事實上容易消極處理就像我在處理狼屍案的時候教育部跟衛福部到底裁罰要依哪一個老師不通報的話要依哪一個呢這個都權責都沒有辦法釐清所以我們希望說在"},{"start":8003.447,"end":8022.078,"text":"法律能夠是不是可以把各權責機關訂定清楚能夠有所依據那一樣新修訂的那個邵氏法在109年修訂這中間我們事實上是沒有去調修我們的邵權法那第一類第二類的確在邵氏法裡面有納入"},{"start":8022.498,"end":8051.959,"text":"那第三类里边呢那就比较特别的是也有提及其他偏差的可是那时候讲第四类也就是未满12岁的要回到我们的儿少全法就没有搭配儿少全法去调修反而前面的纳入结果要从少事法里边拿出来的东西认为儿少全法要可是欠缺明文的规范只是讲说要转到让我们的儿少全法去做处理可是没有辅导转型的具体的服务内容"},{"start":8053.769,"end":8074.145,"text":"那中央五就是安置機構我覺得發展不易我想剛剛前面有安置盟也有提到那我們的經費過少這也是我們在做替代性照顧的時候就已經有提醒還有欠缺我們的優秀人才能夠進駐到安置機構來協力而且安置機構事實上是要跨部會的今天如果機構在東"},{"start":8077.557,"end":8106.369,"text":"搭配的學校是不是可以讓他在東區就讀而不是叫他去西區就讀所以各部會如果不能去搭配這個政策的話只會讓安置機構呢事實上疲於奔命每天如果孩子把他送到西區去的話我相信會增加更多的人員那這是我們政府始終對於替代性照顧大概都認為別人應該民間團體應該要做義工的那種角度來思考這件事情那他們成本基本上非常的高可是我們卻用"},{"start":8107.591,"end":8110.734,"text":"一個所謂的最低廉的價錢來跟他們購買服務"},{"start":8115.38,"end":8141.978,"text":"勞動權益那也是這次我們在提要哪些部會的時候勞動部會認為說為什麼是他們也要來因為兒少還是有就業的一個安全的保障甚至他們本身就缺乏勞動權益而且在司法轉嫌的時候我們本來也希望事實上就業要前面要關係轉嫌始終到現在還是沒有辦法做還有兒少在就業市場裡面常常事實上是最弱勢"},{"start":8142.742,"end":8164.799,"text":"被雇主大概沒有去保老保的我講這台少門過去有調查將近四成的我們的青少年事實上是大家去工作的時候事實上沒有老保他並不知道他有這個權益那我們的勞動檢查的申訴機制他們也不太知道"},{"start":8166.105,"end":8190.191,"text":"使得他們大概沒有辦法透過這些申訴機制把他們的權益要回來所以最後就是希望以日本的看日本的經驗的確日本跟我們一樣都深受少子化之苦可是他們在前年弄了兒童家庭廳在4月12號通過了一個兒童家庭廳所以他們每5年會有滾動去修正就是整個推動的樣態"},{"start":8191.567,"end":8217.093,"text":"可是看起來台灣現在我們可能還在沒有一個專責機構來主政我們的兒少的可是我們的孩子越生越少又今年已經是進入到超高齡那這兩個嫂子花跟超高齡是綁在一起的所以對於這個我大概有幾個期待就是希望未來我們的部會可能要去考慮誰該擔什麼責任不應該把這責任拿掉就像網路"},{"start":8218.769,"end":8244.58,"text":"今天像之前的空氣針我問經濟部經濟部就說這個因為網路上販賣跟他沒有關係可是問題是那經濟部你不是管玩具嗎所以就會有網路世界來臨之後我們好多的權責機關事實上分工不明確這也是希望在修法的時候可以去明定還有檢討現行的法規的漏洞然後參照CRC的施納原則"},{"start":8245.38,"end":8268.178,"text":"來去增訂具體的條文跟充實我們相關的執法那當然我們也期待因為能不能比照像日本能夠有未來事實上是有兒少的確現在有委員已經寫青年的基本法所以我們未來希望有兒少的基本法跟兒少政策綱領可行性來明確我們的國家的兒少政策方針以上 謝謝"},{"start":8270.001,"end":8278.594,"text":"好 謝謝林耀全委員的發言我們下一位請台灣全國媽媽父家父兒聯盟的唐先美秘書長發言"},{"start":8283.783,"end":8300.226,"text":"好主席好各位委員先進大家好我是台灣全國媽媽護家護兒聯盟唐先美副秘書長好那在兒童權利公約的前言裡面其實他就有寫到說確信家庭為社會的基本團體是所有成員特別是兒童成長與福祉的自然環境"},{"start":8301.507,"end":8319.978,"text":"所以應該要獲得必要的保護跟協助以充分擔負其社會上的責任那另外呢在兒童權利宣言中也有提到說兒童因為身心尚未成熟因此他出生前與出生後都需要獲得特別的保護跟照顧"},{"start":8321.019,"end":8335.537,"text":"那這個也是要包括適當的法律的一個保護那本會呢自從2017年的時候開始因為有聽過一些兒少的報告然後我就發現說因為我長期其實也都在投入兒童跟青少年的這些工作"},{"start":8336.058,"end":8352.54,"text":"然後我開始發現為什麼這一群有一些兒少的這些報告跟我自己所接觸的兒少理念或者說我們的想法上有這麼多的不同那也因為這樣子所以我就開始在2018年的時候我就開始投入了更多的了解這個CRC然後去"},{"start":8353.081,"end":8368.424,"text":"也推廣也做兒少培力的這樣的一個工作那我發現在我實際的一個工作當中我發現有些困難點在這個法令或是政策的一些落實或是在接軌上第一個就是有關於表育權的部分那"},{"start":8369.526,"end":8384.861,"text":"在兒權公約當中的表議權也就是說兒少權益相關政策中應將徵詢兒少意見納入程序中但實際上我發現常常是兩極化的一個是常是會被誤用為這個是變成是個兒少的決策權"},{"start":8385.862,"end":8400.054,"text":"那也發現這個很多的一個政府機關在關係兒少權益的委員會目前現在其實是各委員會裡面都有納入了兒少代表或學生代表成為這個當然的委員但是這些學生代表委員"},{"start":8401.275,"end":8420.985,"text":"其實都是往往都是經過篩選過的精英的學生參加一方面他們所發表的這個意見反反映出來的意見呢是不是能夠代表多數而少的一些意見這個這個部分我覺得也是需要去做考量那另外一方面就是說也官員就是也漠視專業推卸責任的一個藉口那"},{"start":8421.385,"end":8449.438,"text":"第二個部分我們發現兒少在家庭或學校中兒少的意見其實基本上是被忽視的在生活中關於兒少的大小事當中其實大部分是單方面的接受他們其實沒有真正表達的機會所以也發現說在這樣的一個氛圍裡面社會其實形成了一種特別在校園當中老師不管管學生這是目前的一個狀況老師不敢管然後很多的家長只要聽到兒童權利公約就覺得"},{"start":8451.179,"end":8472.398,"text":"這什麼東西然後造成世代的一個衝突那學生呢也很可憐學生會覺得說講的也沒有用也會落到這樣的一個處境所以我覺得兒少跟大人之間其實是缺乏溝通的一個練習好 那政府對於家庭的剛剛前言兒童權利公約的前言就有講到應該要對家庭是有一些支持的"},{"start":8473.098,"end":8500.333,"text":"但是政府對家庭的支持性其實是不足的家庭支持能夠讓家庭可以發揮保護兒少的功能與兒少權益是密不可分的但長期以來預防性的家庭支持像家庭教育法其實有規定說學校每一學年好像有4小時的這個家庭教育的親子教育的這樣的一個做法但實際上落實上其實是非常非常不足的好那"},{"start":8501.053,"end":8522.135,"text":"也往往發現呢當兒少出現嚴重問題的時候成為父親少年或是家庭失能需要安置才發現原來他的家庭出了嚴重的問題然後耗費大量的資源去處理善後仍然難以挽回那其實很多的社會案件都是這樣例如在前年年底的時候這個新北戈吼案這也是造成社會非常大的一個衝擊"},{"start":8523.496,"end":8545.825,"text":"那第三個呢就是我沒有參考本土的國情跟文化的脈絡國際審查委員提出的結論性意見與建議是因為是民間團體政府寫的國家報告還有民間團體的影子報告那最有限的這個兩天內的這樣的會議當中國際委員對我們的本土的我國的一個文化脈絡"},{"start":8547.245,"end":8571.626,"text":"他是不是能夠完全的掌握那在沒有共識與充分的溝通跟對話之下我們就常常是很倉促的在提出這個修法反而造成社會更多的對立例如說像教官全面推出校園還有就是有關於性教育的這樣的一個這個學校性教育的教導的部分甚至像去年前年吧前年那個法務部提出刪除民法1085條這些"},{"start":8573.067,"end":8592.438,"text":"其實這個許多其實都是造成社會的一個衝突不是不能修法 而是我們應該要更細緻的去做一些討論那第四個就是兒童最佳利益到底是要怎麼定義是由誰來認定 淪為各說各話那我們針對第二個提綱的部分兒照權法與其他相關兒照法令"},{"start":8593.318,"end":8615.707,"text":"規範的一個調適與調整的整合的部分那本會認為說要加強的一些執法特別是像煙害防治法已經修法了已經兩年了但是我們知道這些新興煙品對於這個不論是電子煙或加熱煙加味煙這些其實最有吸引力的是誰其實是青少年對我們青少年的影響是非常大的"},{"start":8616.187,"end":8639.015,"text":"但是這些外觀設計新潮的氣味又多樣的對青少年有極大吸引力的這樣的一個產品但是我們對於這個的嚴格的管理規範那其實是缺乏的然後也在執行落實上其實也是缺乏的那另外就是剛剛也很多先生都有提到有關於手機的部分在這個兒燒犬法43條第5款中"},{"start":8640.855,"end":8666.494,"text":"就是超過合理時間這個合理時間的定義也沒有一個明確的標準到底應該要怎麼去定義然後所以在數位平台跟這個內容的管理上我們都好像只要求這個媒體要自律但是我們是不是可以做到更進一步那這個其實真的是非常需要設立跨部會合作的這樣的一個監管的機制確保兒少能夠在數位環境的健康安全並有效篩選對兒少先進"},{"start":8668.155,"end":8682.441,"text":"發展不良的這些內容應該是要把要保護我們的兒少第三個就是結合教育宣導那我們不只是要讓兒少了解這個權利但是更要了解這個責任權利跟責任之間的一個平衡"},{"start":8684.127,"end":8705.983,"text":"那更應該重視讓他們明白這個所有的行為其實都是可能會帶來後果的那在推動學校教育課程的這個改革將責任倫理媒體素養及風險評估能力都應該要納入在教材當中培養兒校對自身行為的自主管理與負責的意識同時透過學校或社區活動要有親子的教育"},{"start":8706.744,"end":8732.68,"text":"家長跟兒少要共同的去學習權力跟責任的平衡促進家庭和諧與社會穩定那第四個就是一個建立一個安全且值得信賴的申訴管道其實我們現在其實都有這些申訴管道但是我們的申訴管道到底能不能用這個是值得好好的去做討論的那因為我也問過我們的學生他們說學校的那個申訴管道就放在校長室的旁邊你覺得學生會用嗎"},{"start":8733.701,"end":8762.083,"text":"學生怎麼敢去用那我們的申訴管道如果沒有保護他去申訴的時候這個他的個資或者是或者是說他很他當他提出這樣的一個申訴的時候如果就被老師知道就是他申訴的他敢去申訴嗎根本就是不敢去申訴所以我覺得那個申訴管道是要讓人敢用的一個申訴管道那以上謝謝好謝謝唐鑫梅副秘書長那接下來邀請王岳豪執行長"},{"start":8762.945,"end":8789.922,"text":"請需要任執行長準備好謝謝為了那個避免那個鈴聲壓力我就直接提了那我今天會從幾個部分來談我想第一個從整體的一個部分我想最想想要去強調就是說其實在那個國家責任的一個這一塊其實我覺得那個跨部門的那個權責我希望是在這次的法裡面一定要列很清楚我想"},{"start":8790.382,"end":8808.057,"text":"我們從這幾年實行社安網就會看到就我們都知道這個概念上是說這個網要織的很密真的是跨部會之間的這種合作要真的是非常的一個密切但是我們當然這幾年也會發現到很多的這個情形包括其實行政院兒少"},{"start":8809.718,"end":8824.723,"text":"兒少權益委員會的時候其實就曾經討論過這個兒少的數位權益那當時其實真的就是在到底是哪一個部會管轄就已經一直都分不清所以到後來就是四五個部會大家各自分"},{"start":8825.964,"end":8843.022,"text":"一小一部分所以我覺得說這個法我們如果希望真的是去制一個這個掃權益的一個完整的一個法令其實那個跨部會還有就是各部門的各部會的一個這個權責我想要很清楚否則我們後面的法定的再漂亮如果這個權責單位"},{"start":8844.543,"end":8850.99,"text":"不清楚的話我想執行上還是有很多的一個困難那另外一個部分當然也還包括就是說我們可能除了這個兒少全法還有相關的一些法比如說我們知道之前應該"},{"start":8857.441,"end":8876.561,"text":"有考慮就是那個民法要拿掉這個懲戒權那我們當然也知道有一些的這個家長團體在反對那其實這個我們都知道這個應該是我們要推動的目標可是為什麼有人反對他們的焦慮是什麼其實我們當然知道是說很大的問題其實是親子教育我們一定要替代引導"},{"start":8877.162,"end":8892.578,"text":"所以我們一定要在兒童懲罰裡面去加強輕職教育否則你只是拿掉他拿掉懲罰權可是他們卻不知道要怎麼替代的一個行為的話那這個我們民法拿到懲罰權當然一定會有一些人是反對的"},{"start":8894.468,"end":8919.863,"text":"那另外我想從這個身份家庭健康安全這幾個面向來想那我也回應之前的夥伴有提到我們也認同就是這個現在少子化情況下這個育兒的友善措施應該是要涵蓋到這個六歲學齡前但是就是依評估來提供這個協助那第二個部分是因為我們地心服務蠻多"},{"start":8921.544,"end":8941.399,"text":"這個兒少性侵的一個被害人那其中有關於我們俗稱的所謂兩小無猜他們跟一般的這個性侵害的一個被害人的情況跟問題需求事實上是有很大的不同他們可能不認為自己是我們所認定的這個被害人所以很多時候事實上是在處理"},{"start":8942.139,"end":8967.707,"text":"他們的這個親子衝突的一個部分那我們會覺得是說用這個司法去處理青少年的性跟情感的一個問題是違反了CRC第40條的這樣子的一個情形那我們應該轉向用CRC的第28條受教權去回應所以我們很期待這個性教育情感教育要納入這次修法的一個框架那如果這些兒少他們"},{"start":8970.408,"end":8986.763,"text":"發生的這個性行為我們是不是可以先用輔導先行的概念而不是直接就用這個刑法去切入那我想其實之前一直也有在討論這個問題那我們也知道其實家長也是比較持反對的意見可是我想我們專業的團體我們會知道說其實輔導教育"},{"start":8989.935,"end":9005.901,"text":"是更重要司法是我們的備案但是如果我們輔導教育這一塊一直沒有做的話那當然就是只能推到司法去可是司法之後我們就知道是事實上親子的關係反而是加劇跟衝突的"},{"start":9007.361,"end":9023.771,"text":"那再來是青少女的這個孕育跟親子的一個服務我想現在少子化情況下我們都知道是那麼會計畫的想很多反而都不敢生然後沒有預期的那可是他們就是生了那我們怎麼樣子讓我們有這個優秀的這個下一代所以我們涵蓋這個懷孕的過程當中就要對他們有這個妥善的一個親子的一個教育的一些支持跟"},{"start":9036.579,"end":9061.557,"text":"那不要等到問題發生的時候我們要去收拾善後那另外從保護安置的這一塊我們知道有在討論那個要增加責任通報人員的這個訓練那我原則上當然也支持可是就除了之前比較是從專業人員我知道有在討論是不是要包括什麼公寓大廈管理人員這個部分那這些因為他們不是"},{"start":9063.579,"end":9078.438,"text":"專業人員所以事實上那個加強訓練那我們加強訓練我覺得也不能只是從法規那因為其實台灣已經累積了這麼多年的一個通報的一個執行但事實上我覺得很需要是把這個通報多年的一個實務檢討之後"},{"start":9080.38,"end":9100.459,"text":"來作為一個訓練的一個素材那所以這個部分會期待是落實這個訓練讓這個通報是一個有效的一個通報不是一個卸責式的一個通報那另外在那個安置契約的這個部分那其實這幾年來一直我們知道那個"},{"start":9101.781,"end":9120.097,"text":"替代性的這個照顧的一個這個政策那我們之前有看到一個法條的一個版本好像有這個所謂安置處所的一個順序那我們知道這幾年也有這個KPI的一個引導但是我們會覺得說如果有一個這順序這順序就是那個親屬寄養團家機構"},{"start":9124.04,"end":9152.578,"text":"但是我覺得還是要去強調是說應該是回到依專業評估否則我們很擔心是這幾年真的有點就是罐頭式的服務然後就是你有沒有這個需求沒有結案但事實上並沒有真的去依所謂的這個專業的這個評估是落後的所以我們希望這個部分要加強那接下來的這個部分對不起我按錯了"},{"start":9156.118,"end":9172.844,"text":"好那兒少的這個媒體報導我想很感謝那個月琴委員在這個之前的時候已經召開這個公聽會了所以我想這個部分應該已經有很明確我們修法的一個方向那另外我想提那個兒少友善司法的這塊其實這幾年有關於"},{"start":9175.445,"end":9202.965,"text":"不管是處罰少年或者是兒少成為這個被害人那有很多相關的法律俄波啦性侵犯罪防治法加是事件少事法有很多跟兒少有關他可能會接觸到這個司法的一個這個系統所以兒少的這個友善的一個司法我們覺得應該要有更完整的一個這樣子的一個規劃所以以上是我們的建議謝謝好謝謝王月好執行長接下來請我們"},{"start":9204.313,"end":9207.134,"text":"主席跟現場的與會先進 大家好 那很高興這個未完委員會邀請我們來參與這個兒消全法的一個公聽會 那我這邊"},{"start":9227.878,"end":9245.803,"text":"好那我這邊的話是針對其實剛剛很多的先進都已經提到很多的面向那因為進捐一直長期關注在兒少事故的這個面向所以我會針對這個是兒權公約的四大原則的生存權及發展權的部分來做說明那"},{"start":9246.483,"end":9256.735,"text":"也是要跟次長講其實挺遺憾的就前面在次長說明的時候我們還是聽到死因回溯只有在6歲以下那我這邊呢就希望說藉由一些數據來跟次長跟團隊溝通說為什麼我們真的是有必要來思考"},{"start":9262.08,"end":9280.486,"text":"18歲以下的死因回溯的工作那其實我今天的報告主要就是針對三方面兒少的事故傷害的現況以及事故傷害防治跟最後剛剛提到很多我們這個網路是網路原生世代的這些兒少到底該怎麼來顧慮他們的網路安全的一個議題"},{"start":9281.926,"end":9296.261,"text":"那這邊我們就可以看到0到17歲的兒少十大的死因前五項排除了所謂的病死或者是先天性的一個異常的一個部分我們看到的兩大的重點是什麼第一個就是事故傷害事故傷害每10萬人4.9那另外一塊呢就是剛剛很多先進提到的自殺的議題"},{"start":9303.929,"end":9314.465,"text":"所以如果排除我們的所謂的醫療的一個介入其他的部分我們衛福部在兒少全法就是應該要對焦這兩個重點去做介入"},{"start":9316.644,"end":9341.431,"text":"那我们看到儿少事故伤害的一个死亡率其实这几年其实是一个持平的一个状态但是我们看到年龄上面的一个趋势是什么我们放很多的一个重心在0到6岁没有错他们是非常脆弱的一群但是呢我们在整个统计上面看到的是12到17岁的部分在所有的一个年龄区段当中只有他是往上升的"},{"start":9342.251,"end":9369.49,"text":"就是他的整个线性的趋势是往上走的每10万人是来到6.9人的部分那我们前面大家都讲到少子化我们从13万8千13万5千现在已经到可能无法保底13万这件事情那我们怎么样来去看待事故伤害带来的一个影响我们生的没有比日本多但是我们死的比日本多我们从全国的事故伤害的数据来看我们是日本的5倍"},{"start":9370.31,"end":9388.547,"text":"好所以呢這個就會顯現出我們真的真正的國安危機是在這邊那另外的話自殺的狀況也是一樣的我們可以看到整個數據來看呢0到17歲是藍色的部分而在上面最高的部分也就是我們的12到17歲所以為什麼要不斷的說不斷的說其實兒少的這個階段12到17歲"},{"start":9392.671,"end":9403.517,"text":"才是我們應該要去弄清楚他到底因為哪些自殺的議題或事故傷害的議題而死傷的一個狀況我們必須要有明確的"},{"start":9405.545,"end":9431.387,"text":"死伤的一个数据我们才能够呢来针对这个全面性的去审查这个案例的收集专家的讨论风险因素的评估以及数据的分析才能够知道我们每一个儿少他到底面临什么样的困境我们应该要在环境面应该要在辅导面提供哪一些介入的策略才能够帮助他持续的生存跟发展"},{"start":9432.988,"end":9449.176,"text":"那我們再來看到事故傷害防治的部分因為今天對焦兒少權法那目前呢我們兒少權法就是有這個所謂的兒少安全實施方案那剛剛如月勤委員所說的半年只開一次會雖然在表面上各部會都來了"},{"start":9450.356,"end":9477.424,"text":"但是就是流于形式把数据报一报可是提案的部分大家也都是带回去研议如果一直以这样的方式来处理儿少安全的实施的一个计划的话我想其实是不会有用的刚刚的数据就告诉我们我们在这几年的儿少安全实施方案的投入上在于事故伤害的防治以及儿少自杀的一个议题上面并没有成效"},{"start":9478.044,"end":9493.787,"text":"所以如果沒有成效的話我們還是要維持同樣的做法的話其實對於往後來說我們就是會覺得是比較不具前瞻性也是比較悲觀的一個看法那我們可以其實來看到這個兒校安全實施方案我們只要舉其中一個"},{"start":9494.708,"end":9508.136,"text":"这是在事故伤害里面最严重的交通事故来看就好了他的预期指标是每年降低儿少的交通事故死亡人数每年受伤人数零成长各位请看一下这个数据"},{"start":9509.381,"end":9526.321,"text":"有达到吗并没有达到就是反而是往上升的所以我们的儿校安全实施方案到底带给我们儿校什么样的一个果效是值得来参考的那我们其实可以来比较一下台湾日本跟美国的一个做法"},{"start":9526.621,"end":9547.506,"text":"那其實目前台灣的做法是跟日本比較類近的都是針對為問題的導向去做介入而美國呢他們是比較從系統性的角度在整體分析數據找到議題每一個主題裡面定出三項最主要要投入的一個目標然後呢定出政策而且必須要回報"},{"start":9548.246,"end":9563.184,"text":"所以它這個是從比較前瞻的角度系統性的一個做法來看到事故傷害降低的一個方式而我們跟日本的比較呢日本其實早期在交通上面就投入這個所謂的PDCA的一個做法"},{"start":9563.484,"end":9587.857,"text":"那其實他們在近幾年呢在交通事故的一個下降上面有非常明確的果效但他們在2023年4月也覺得不夠了因為就如剛剛很多的先進提到兒童的問題不能夠破碎化所以成立的兒童家庭廳來做一個整合性的一個介入那台灣呢目前就是都還沒有這些專責的機構或是前瞻性的做法"},{"start":9588.617,"end":9603.211,"text":"所以我們對49條50條的建議大概有這四個面向第一個系統性的框架架構第二個是框架計劃的法制化沒有法制化的話其實就沒有預算跟做法第三個就是跨部門的一個數據整合如果剛剛"},{"start":9604.972,"end":9625.26,"text":"教授所說兒童局裁測之後我們的數據狀況反而是倒退走的大家要去找兒童的數據都非常的困難那最後一個就是走在前面的所謂的教育課程時數的規範那我們可以看到這是韓國的安全事故的預防的教育有這麼多的內容"},{"start":9625.88,"end":9634.795,"text":"因為他們知道要讓孩子先能夠生存能夠安全的自我保護才能夠有談其他的一個發展面向"},{"start":9637.093,"end":9661.006,"text":"好那在網路安全的部分呢我們大概前面有很多先進提到我們就大概整理幾個部分那基本上我們這邊比較在乎的就是自殺的部分跟網路的一個使用的關聯性那我想這塊有很多的醫界或者是研究報告都已經佐證了這件事情所以我們特別要來專注這個網路安全的一個專法的一個比較"},{"start":9662.947,"end":9675.972,"text":"那我們台灣目前就是沒有網路安全的專法而美國其實他們在這個安全跟隱私的部分也結合起來成為一個專法參議院也在努力的讓他通過當中這裡面涵蓋的提高的年齡的門檻要到17歲"},{"start":9679.813,"end":9709.353,"text":"然后呢最高等级的一个隐私跟安全的一个设置跟数据收集的一个限制你不能够随意的去收集儿少的个资以及最后你平台必须负责任你Meta你这些Google你这些平台你必须要进行透明度的一个报告而英国呢则是在2023年就已经通过了这个安全法案就是在网络平台上面需要防止儿少接触有害的内容"},{"start":9709.973,"end":9730.151,"text":"那非法匯不當的內容呢出現的時候要即時的刪除那要求這個ofcom的制定呢相關的指南跟行為的準則因此在歐美國家其實他們都已經看到兒少對於網路使用的一個成癮狀況以及對於他們自己自殺或自傷的一個影響性"},{"start":9731.452,"end":9758.265,"text":"所以針對網路安全的部分我們提出四個面向第一個就是年齡驗證的機制指導這個部分我們現在都是你有沒有滿18歲你就會按有我滿18歲了這個叫做過橋頁面一點用都沒有那第二個就是每年度的風險評估報告跟明確的網路平台的職責這個是必須要苛責在網路平台上面的然後最後是建立全面性的一個專法"},{"start":9759.265,"end":9777.959,"text":"那所以總結來說呢我們進軍這邊的修法的建議針對事故傷害呢希望可以重新的審視方案的架構然後另外呢把我們的安全教育時數訂入最後是剛剛很多先進提到跨部門的一個整合那網路安全的一個規管部分呢具體的規範網路平台的職責這個是"},{"start":9782.342,"end":9800.696,"text":"國際趨勢第二個就是年齡驗證機制的指導跟所謂的年度風險評估的報告平台應該要來提出那最後呢就是再次的呼籲死因回縮應該要做到18歲以上謝謝好謝謝我們薛阿倫執行長接下來請張雅玲委員然後賴慧敏副教授請準備"},{"start":9806.677,"end":9835.267,"text":"謝謝主席那今天是非常高興我們可以來這邊召開兒少全法修訂還有兒童權利公約落實的一個公聽會讓更多的部會然後更多的同仁和夥伴一起來監督而且關注我們兒少全的修法進度因為這個兒少全法在上次大修已經是14年前的事情了那這幾年民間也一直不停的在呼籲希望可以儘早的來推出這個兒少全法的版本那我想我們在現在的法規上面還是有非常多可以精進的作為"},{"start":9836.127,"end":9845.793,"text":"那其實我進來立法院的第一個提案呢就是在講兒少表義權兒童表義權這件事情我們必須要去更強化讓兒少有關的事情都要讓兒童可以來發聲"},{"start":9847.797,"end":9867.14,"text":"過去我們常常可能像我這段時間我也在進來立法院的時候會去問大家國科會做了很多Kids Science啦還有像是我們做了一些科普的活動啊你有沒有去收集兒童參加過之後的意見回饋呢那就有部會告訴我說有"},{"start":9868.137,"end":9877.914,"text":"我有然後非常開心的跟我分享了那我發現裡面是30題的問卷每一題都涉及非常高深的科學名稱"},{"start":9880.031,"end":9903.536,"text":"那我想我就說然後他們就說也有人回答我想我如果我們針對的一個活動是12歲以下跟你去講很多非常艱深的科技名詞的時候科學名詞的時候你收集來的意見會是真實如實的兒童意見嗎好所以我想在大多數我們過去不管是地方或者是中央政府我們做的很多意見回饋都是非常制式的線上問卷調查"},{"start":9905.236,"end":9926.091,"text":"我們並沒有針對不同的年紀去設計適合他的問卷適合他的調查方式以及適合他訴說的一個環境不管是過去的學生輔導法還是在做心理諮商的時候這個環境可能對他來說非常的有壓迫感不過也很高興教育部接下來會投入相關的預算去改善這個空間的部分"},{"start":9927.072,"end":9946.674,"text":"我也想要回应到前面刚刚立心也有讲到儿少友善司法这件事情就是说在我们的儿少权法第五条去规定是说处理儿童及少年相关事物时应以儿童及少年之最佳利益为优先考量并依其心智成熟程度来权衡其意见"},{"start":9947.615,"end":9970.761,"text":"可是第18條又規定了收出養如果父母意見不一致的時候是由法官依最佳利益來認可跟決定那如果說在法庭這個環境大人可能在表述自己意見都非常困難的時候孩子要如何去表達自己的想法呢那他要如何去確認怎麼樣是符合兒少的最佳利益呢"},{"start":9972.201,"end":9995.398,"text":"那這份提案我也非常高興這個司法院其實在去年更新的CRC第二次結論性意見辦理情形其實有回覆就是針對這第19號一般性意見回應說他們現在其實也在改善法庭中支持兒童表現的軟硬挺設施那在11月初的時候我也跟泰國的檢察官來討論就是有關於我們"},{"start":9996.258,"end":10008.016,"text":"现在这个检查检调系统里面的一些儿少友善司法我想我知道他有来跟我们的检调系统这边做一些简报所以我也希望未来我们可以看到更友善的一个环境那"},{"start":10009.389,"end":10028.174,"text":"再來其實我還有一個非常重要的質詢就是在今年的時候在院會要求我們的卓院長應該要有兒少預算整合平台因為過去我們都是採事後統計的錢散落在各個部會裡面其實我們根本沒有人知道他如果根據預算"},{"start":10030.515,"end":10048.328,"text":"我們根本不知道有多少預算事前完全不知道也不知道我們要有多少真正的優待我們的兒少那也導致了我們的兒少GDP只佔國家的2%跟其他OECD相比來說都是6%來所以這相比來說是非常非常的缺乏"},{"start":10049.329,"end":10078.479,"text":"而且我在細細的研究發現裡面大部分都是發這個補助跟津貼其實用在兒童身心發展相關的預算是非常非常的少所以我也有要求就是卓院長就是要有這個兒校預算整合平台那這個衛福部也他也折騰了衛福部來做規劃那其實我未來也會持續的來去監督我相信我們要更科學的預算科學的方式去檢視我們的預算我們才能夠確實的去掌握我們的兒校有沒有"},{"start":10079.139,"end":10081.08,"text":"真的使用到這些預算"},{"start":10109.279,"end":10123.915,"text":"所以呢在我們的兒少公會裡面其實也有講到兒童有休憩的權利但是在我們現在其實在中央的法規裡面我們公園是沒有主管機關的也沒有國家級的研究來去了解我們兒童的休憩的現況"},{"start":10124.796,"end":10151.778,"text":"是場地不足時間不足還是怎麼樣子的原因我們是一無所知那既然沒有分析沒有理解就不會知道要投入多少的資源也就不能夠有更有效率的改善作為那現在我也非常高興看到就是說院長有承諾會由教育部來做這個國家級的研究運動部也即將成立那我也有要求你們要去針對於青少不管是運動或是休憩的部分我們都要去有足夠的了解因為大家都說我投入了很多SH"},{"start":10153.66,"end":10175.013,"text":"這個150嘛齁 我們都有鼓勵小孩子但是 鼓勵小孩子運動 但是小孩子告訴我們的是對啊 就是叫我跑操場跟跳跳繩我想大家都非常清楚嘛他的運動就是這兩個 可是小朋友說想要打籃球 然後就會有人說欸 不行喔 我們主要是要完成跳跳繩跟跑操場 那我覺得這就是一個非常大的"},{"start":10176.334,"end":10198.247,"text":"現實執行的問題那我們也希望透過相關的研究我們可以真實的如實的去反應孩子的需要然後回應孩子的需要那就如同我一開始經理法院講的一個很重要的關鍵就是親子的聲音錄國會那未來也希望跟我們的部會跟我們的團體一起來努力謝謝好謝謝張雅玲委員那接下來請賴月蜜副教授發言那陳珍瑾顧問準備"},{"start":10210.945,"end":10215.769,"text":"主席各位大家好每個孩子都很重要"},{"start":10217.797,"end":10247.243,"text":"今天很開心來討論到底我們CRC在國內的落實的情況那在CRC第20條第21條還有在我們第一次第二次的這個CRC國際的審查的會議裡頭呢特別都提到關於收養收養這個議題那關於收養的我想在整個整部的CRC裡面我們捍衛的是在孩子在原生家庭的成長的權利當家庭不能好好照顧這個孩子的時候那"},{"start":10248.222,"end":10267.12,"text":"這個整個政府整個國家社會的機制怎麼做family support我們怎麼支持這個孩子那這就是非常重要的事甚至於再來是替代性暫時抽出孩子這就是今天非常多的安置機構的食物的工作者的分享你們剛講的食物我都非常的認同"},{"start":10267.961,"end":10288.759,"text":"我們怎麼樣的從親屬照顧第三人照顧寄養跟甚至於安置機構我們怎麼樣給孩子一個好的照顧不過最終的理念我們還是期待他可以回歸家庭那接下來如果萬一真的這個家庭撐不了我們也協助不了的時候別忘了給孩子一個穩定的這個家庭一個family"},{"start":10289.179,"end":10316.198,"text":"也是孩子的權利所以關於這個孩子收養的這個權利被照顧的這個權利我覺得是對孩子來講非常重要我為什麼提到every tribe matters雖然說收養的孩子人數少可是收養呢對孩子是一輩子攸關的這樣的一個決定那我覺得非常遺憾的在我們這幾年中央的這個替代兒童照顧的委員會裡頭一直排除收養的討論"},{"start":10318.039,"end":10325.965,"text":"那我覺得非常非常的可惜那我也非常感謝我們CRC的國際審查還好他們沒有忽略到收養他們也看到我們目前台灣國內收養的幾大問題那首先呢我想他們也提到第一個我們終止收養的比例高那我們說為愛出養為愛收養這個是一生的承諾那收養了孩子怎麼有終止"},{"start":10346.438,"end":10352.122,"text":"我最常問人家說你自己生的孩子可不可以退貨可是收養的孩子可以退貨這個部分在國際的這樣的一個標準上面我常常在國際的研討會上面他們最常問我說台灣如果這個孩子被終止之後怎麼辦我說第一個我們還是期待他回到原生家庭"},{"start":10368.832,"end":10396.914,"text":"不行的話那就是繼續政府的照顧接著他們第二句話就說那你們台灣的孩子好可憐你們有終止收養所以對於終止收養這樣的一個規定已經在現在這樣子台灣的社會還是不是有存在的必要我覺得這需要討論第二個部分在終止收養比例高的情況我們看到很多是寄親收養跟寄親近親跟寄親收養的比例特別高"},{"start":10398.015,"end":10420.122,"text":"那特別呢是在寄親收養我們在民法1076之一就是六年修法了之後哇我們有太多的這個寄親一結婚就收養一離婚就終止這個比例非常的高甚至在我的研究裡頭還有小朋友呢因為呢這些呢就剛一直提到的我們在司法的這個孩子的表意權"},{"start":10420.982,"end":10435.399,"text":"所有的程序裡面孩子可能都被邀請到法庭來表應所以甚至有小朋友告訴我們的司事官說法官大人拜託你可不可以叫我媽媽不要再結婚了因為我一直上法庭"},{"start":10435.939,"end":10454.478,"text":"大家可不可以想到 哇 他結婚 這個一離婚之後他孩子要上來 改姓要來上來然後呢 收養要上法庭 終止要上法庭然後這個媽媽再結婚 哇 再收養孩子就是一直來進出法庭所以關於這個寄親收養的這樣子 民法1076之一我們也需要好好的檢討"},{"start":10459.703,"end":10473.914,"text":"這個在國外特別是加拿大魁北克他們特別提到寄親如果要收養至少要同住三年就是要去看他們的關係是不是夠穩定才可以做這個決定然後甚至於在英國呢針對這個寄親stepfather這個step parent這部分他們提出是一個叫extra的概念就是這是多一個爸爸媽媽所以從孩子被照顧的角度"},{"start":10484.862,"end":10509.7,"text":"寄親應該是來照顧的不一定是在法律上一定要成為收養那因為呢在這過程也會去看到說到底近親寄親收養的必要性然後呢在我們台灣這幾年就會發現其實收養一直被濫用因為呢這個利用收養達到什麼行這個監護權不要讓對方看小孩之食那或是利用收養行這個收取福利之食"},{"start":10510.22,"end":10521.944,"text":"或是利用收養行移工之時我覺得這幾年都是收養上面很多的問題所以在收養上面其實真的很需要好好的來做一些討論接下來國際審查的意見也特別提到說"},{"start":10527.25,"end":10548.525,"text":"在我們的這個議題裡面也看到說我們的國外出養的人數特別的多因為在這個環顧全世界我們現在除了施亞C之外我們還有海牙公約所以在國際性捍衛的都是孩子在原生長成長的權利如果孩子真的要被出養很重要的原則是什麼"},{"start":10549.685,"end":10566.293,"text":"國內優先因為會考慮到孩子在長大過程裡面同文同種文化的適應這一點非常的重要那我們也很謝謝政府在101年我們終於把國內優先落了我們的兒少全法但可惜的是我們落實不夠"},{"start":10567.654,"end":10573.438,"text":"因為在這過程裡面我們怎麼樣讓國內真的可以優先其實在我們整個國內的收養的過程裡面我們需要給很大的協助例如我們在性別平等工作法第16條我們後來也的確修法收養之後也可以運用一般的育嬰假這樣的適用可是我要說這不夠的"},{"start":10593.591,"end":10621.805,"text":"因為一般的育嬰假就是三歲以前兩年那我們孩子會被出養呢其實絕大多數都超過了這個兩三歲然後呢所以在這過程而且特別被收養的孩子我想這麼多安置機構都知道孩子會到最後面被收養他前面可能都有什麼有很多的議題他就是基本上ACE童年逆境的這樣的孩子所以他的照顧非常的困難那所以呢有一些例如像瑞典有些國家"},{"start":10623.065,"end":10635.614,"text":"剛收養到的孩子適同剛出生所以我們應該要給這個收養的家庭更多更多的福利我們才可能真的可以國內優先那接下來呢不好意思時間關係我還是要說呢在我們國外的這個部分我們終於呢其實101年修法之後因為在101年之前我們的國外的出養的人數真是大於國內非常非常的多也因為我們這樣的修法我們終於把國內跟國外的人數"},{"start":10653.145,"end":10669.454,"text":"比較相近比較相近可是站在孩子的這個角度我在瑞典做研究的時候甚至於瑞典媽媽告訴我說其實你們台灣孩子超過4歲5歲不要送出來了因為其實他們在語言的適應文化的適應都太辛苦了"},{"start":10670.635,"end":10680.339,"text":"我想台灣我們現在的經濟已經到這麼好了我們生長的孩子我們大齡的孩子還是不斷的往外送所以整體來講這個收養真的是攸關孩子非常的重要那我們倡議其實收養在很多國家都是這個收養專法我想在整體的考量裡面怎麼樣的收養專法終止收養這些國際收養的議題都應該一併被考量 謝謝"},{"start":10698.963,"end":10723.95,"text":"好謝謝賴玉蜜副教授那接下來陳珍瑾顧問那我們的陳培鈺委員請準備主席各位委員各位先進大家好我代表台灣家長守護婦幼權益協會在這邊發言非常感謝委員會邀請家長團體在這邊發言因為在關於兒少有關的事情上面家長其實是最直接的利害關係人"},{"start":10726.111,"end":10748.167,"text":"當孩子受到傷害的時候最心痛的其實是家長我舉個例子就是在培諾米達幼兒園性侵害案件這個案件爆發的時候最心痛的是誰就是家長那這個案件為什麼會被爆出來也是家長提出檢舉那在這個案件當中家長所在意所關心所生氣的是什麼因為在這樣子案件當中家長沒有辦法"},{"start":10749.148,"end":10768.661,"text":"事先防範當有一個性侵害前科的這樣子一個加害人他在社會上面他在這些可以接觸到兒少的工作上面來工作的時候家長沒有辦法知道那以至於這些孩子至少受害我們所知道是超過28名這一些的孩子家長"},{"start":10769.542,"end":10797.658,"text":"千方百計處心積慮想要把這些孩子送到這個最好的幼兒園但是他們卻在這個最好的幼兒園裡面遭受到性侵害所以這是家長最痛心的事情那我們在這邊提出一個想法就是說希望政府能夠有一個整合的平台讓家長家中育有未成年兒少的這樣子的家庭的家長他能夠來查閱這個系統因為目前的這個性侵害的加害人的系統他其實是一個保密的系統只有雇主"},{"start":10798.038,"end":10820.992,"text":"或者是相關的教育單位他要錄用心境人員的時候才能夠去做查詢其實一般的家長根本沒有辦法知道這也是在培諾米達幼兒園性侵害案件當中家長最在意的事情家長如何知道我們希望能夠讓家長有一個對等的知情的同意權這是第一點那第二點我其實就只有講兩點第二點就是在於說"},{"start":10822.213,"end":10840.269,"text":"干哥干妹的这个案件当中他其实反映出邵氏法修法之后相关的配套措施不足为什么因为在2019年的时候邵氏法修法把七项的破险行为删掉了四项只剩下三项那这四项这些破险少年谁来关心他"},{"start":10840.969,"end":10863.65,"text":"其實在這個流程當中他們就被漏接了所以我們在這邊也提出一個想法希望被刪除的這四項的破險行為我在這邊說一下哪四項第一個經常與有犯罪習性的人交往第二個經常出入少年不當進入的場所第三個經常逃學或逃家第四個參加不良組織我們認為這四項"},{"start":10866.552,"end":10894.035,"text":"在邵氏法被刪除的暴行行為的項目 應該要列入到兒少全法裡面的依法通報的項目裡面 讓社工人員可以及早的介入 及早的關心 及早的輔導 然後讓我們的孩子能夠生活 能夠成長在一個安全無疑的校園裡面 以上是我的發言 謝謝大家好 謝謝我們的陳正錦顧問 然後接下來請我們的陳培宇委員"},{"start":10898.035,"end":10917.225,"text":"好謝謝主席那先謝謝各位學者專家還有各位民間團體的好朋友那我想公聽會才剛開始後續修法的路上非常非常的漫長我就先在這邊預約大家的時間要拜託大家我們會跟月秦一起努力我想在目前沒有看到任何草案的時候我們有跟"},{"start":10918.745,"end":10932.351,"text":"衛福部要了相關的大方向那從大方向我們看到一些問題那也是我們辦公室過去雖然在交流文化委員會可是有相關的議題我們都有處理到我在這邊想要先跟大家分享那我提出來的問題一定都代表他還沒有被足夠"},{"start":10933.291,"end":10957.987,"text":"好好的解決跟看見可能的配套還有未來可能更好的想像所以我剛剛的預約是有原因的第一個是關於兒少機構人員違法勾擊跟處理的問題大家知道目前違反兒少法的通報跟姓名的公告讓不適任的人員不能再跟小孩一起工作或是不能進入兒少場所工作這件事情不管是在教育系統或是安置機構他們都有各自的通報系統"},{"start":10958.667,"end":10982.397,"text":"但是大家都知道相關違法人員他可以在不同的場所之間流竄因為相關的系統並沒有做勾擊那我從前年 前年 對 前年地府進來之後我們辦公室發現了這個問題我們不斷的跟衛福部還有教育部還有法務部溝通我們希望相關資料庫是可以勾擊的那總算 總算走了一年多他目前是可以勾擊但還是有漏洞"},{"start":10983.956,"end":11007.184,"text":"我們舉最近發生發生在台中少棒隊教練性侵兒童的案例我想要先提醒大家目前衛福部49條有一個公告系統在幼兒園的部分有幼照法的公教系統勾擊系統然後在教育部有不失人教育人員的系統但這三個系統目前是沒有勾擊的所以他的流竄是可以想像那我們促成他勾擊之後我們發現還有一個漏洞"},{"start":11008.624,"end":11027.475,"text":"台中市少棒隊教練性侵兒童屏東籃球教練猥褻女童的不幸案件都是在學校端出現的那甚至可能是因為他用志工的名義出現在學校所以學校認為他沒有問題他就讓他進來了或者是他進來的那一年學校後續沒有在每年的勾擊相關的資料所以很多的案件就沒有出現"},{"start":11028.095,"end":11050.929,"text":"所以我剛剛只是舉了兩個大家看到上新聞的案例但是大家可以想像現場有非常多的案例是不適任的人員他會用各式各樣莫名其妙的身份進入跟孩子們共同工作的場域包含我們過去在追究非常多單項協會在運動現場的事情他甚至是用志工的名義進去繼續指導小孩那我們要說要根本解決這個問題非常謝謝"},{"start":11052.91,"end":11071.11,"text":"之前人本教育基金會有跟我們討論關於兒童工作證的事情那這當然有國外的相關法規範可以參考但是我當然知道落到台灣之後我們有台灣社會的民情跟配套必須要認真的討論所以在過去幾次的總質詢當中我也刻意的跟院長提出來希望透過院長的高度讓相關部會可以進行討論"},{"start":11073.132,"end":11086.15,"text":"那因為目前都還是沒有看到相關進度甚至我猜想在未來兒上法修法的時候可能也還不會想要考慮到這件事情因為我知道你們會認為相關配套或者是會影響到大人的工作權益但我就問"},{"start":11087.506,"end":11104.107,"text":"那大人的工作權益重要難道小孩的權益不重要嗎所以這件事情我要再次強烈的主張也要拜託所有委員一起幫忙我們如何把兒童工作證放入未來兒少法修法當中那接下來在現行的兒少法現行條文第26之一第81 第81之一"},{"start":11106.149,"end":11130.256,"text":"我現在要繼續講漏洞有居家式托育、兒少福利機構、課後照顧服務班這三種兒少工作人員的消極資格有做出限制可是這三種人員的標準是不一致的大家去打開那個表格你會很好奇例如說犯過毒品危害防治條例的人犯過家暴罪的人不能從事居家托育可是可以從事兒少福利機構課後照顧班"},{"start":11131.736,"end":11147.322,"text":"有沒有怪怪的我個人身為兩個小孩的媽媽我覺得怪怪的還有不是只有這個如果查證屬實他有性侵害性騷擾的行為可是還沒有到判決有罪那他不能從事兒少福利機構課後照顧班可是他可以做居家托育聽起來有沒有更怪"},{"start":11149.603,"end":11172.037,"text":"好這些標準不一致的地方我們都認為非常的奇怪我當然知道還是要保障相關工作人員的工作權益可是我要講放任這些大人繼續在兒童出現兒少出現的現場跟相關機構真的有很大的意義我認為後續修法我們要認真討論這一題接下來家外安置跟原生家庭重整的部分也是我們從這個角度看到"},{"start":11172.637,"end":11190.755,"text":"当原生家庭出现状况小孩要赶快进行家外安置可是在联合国儿童权利公约一再的强调要协助原生家庭重整让小孩可以返回原生家庭可是我们看到目前最大的困境就是安置照顾家庭重整返家处育计划这三个环节彼此的环环相扣"},{"start":11191.596,"end":11211.293,"text":"彼此社工的合作或者是彼此機構之間的合作可能出現了一些漏洞導致會有將近一成的小孩會再被通報甚至回到原生家庭發生虐待的案件監察院也做出相關的調查跟提醒那簡單的說後續我認為兒少保護是專精於兒少可是我們在催加的部分是服務所有年齡的家庭"},{"start":11211.693,"end":11228.262,"text":"所以如何在兒少法這一次修法當中把兒少安置的專業跟人力跟風險評估在相對不足的情況下如何拜託衛福部協同教育部還有相關單位我們一起為孩子在這一塊原生家庭跟家外安置的部分在做努力接下來要講安置機構跟校園性暴力我想"},{"start":11229.002,"end":11255.023,"text":"昨天才公布了國家人權委員會才公布了校園跟安置機構兒少性侵系統系統性訪查案的專案報告光是2023年校園補習班安置機構的兒少性侵超過170件我們難以想像這些孩子們他們如何自己度過漫漫長夜整個系統到底還可以還缺了什麼可以協助更多的孩子那孩子如何不要處於被機構背叛的狀態我相信"},{"start":11255.743,"end":11278.619,"text":"這些孩子都不會只是個案如果我們沒有看見這些個案背後整個通案性的系統性因素我們很難想像還有更多孩子在未來會是被受害的接下來收出養的問題那有非常多專家學者都談到收出養我就不再多說可是在收出養目前在凱凱案之後我們是決定下放到地方政府的社福中心可是我真的想要幫社福中心的社工挨好一下"},{"start":11279.7,"end":11296.341,"text":"社福中心的社工老師已經在搖頭了對不對社福中心的社工要如何承擔這麼多相關的業務或者是家庭暴力防治中心那這一次我們想像他們也許會做得更好但是大家不要忘記了有些地方政府的財政效率不佳行政能力不佳那甚至是社工流動率很高"},{"start":11297.182,"end":11315.501,"text":"他們社福中心還要身兼加爆防治業務他們人力不足流動率很高常常找不到社工還有有也見得他們有足夠的收出養的專業跟職能可以協助相關的案例那我想後續很多問題我們如何做到治標又治本收出養這個事情我知道還有很多事情要討論最後一個"},{"start":11317.543,"end":11322.087,"text":"最近有很多人開記者會在講的就是民法1085 家長懲罪權的修法為了配合這個修法呢 而效法49條也要跟著調整關於體罰不當管教的定義這個消息出來之後 非常多家長打電話到我們辦公室抗議喔他們認為家長懲罪權被拿掉 沒有辦法教小孩"},{"start":11337.842,"end":11358.704,"text":"那這件事情我其實一直從兩年前就開始告訴教育部中生教育司裡面有一個家庭教育中心而家庭教育中心必須要更積極的承擔站在國家政府的立場更多的努力去協助家長可是回到衛福部的兒少法49條或是相關的後續配套我都認為其實還是有非常多角色可以一起努力最後一個所有我這些談的議題"},{"start":11359.665,"end":11385.227,"text":"我們在面對的都是一個一個受傷的孩子而在整個兒上法的系統當中有沒有人想到這些受傷的孩子他們所需要的心理支持跟相關的心理健康資源大家不要覺得學輔法修完就沒事了學輔法他所照顧的是學校裡面的案例或是從學校裡面pass出來叫地方學輔資中心的案例但是在整個催加系統或是所有的從社政單位所想像出來這些個案或是相關他的家庭或是兄弟姊妹"},{"start":11385.626,"end":11407.703,"text":"孩子們所需要的心理健康支援我也希望在後續兒童法修法的過程當中可以被看見還有他們的專業可以被討論 以上謝謝好 謝謝我們的陳培余委員那今天與會人員發言完畢後請各行政機關列席代表均做整體回應先請做準備"},{"start":11408.765,"end":11415.924,"text":"那接下來我們邀請到我們的謝忠業主任那請王一鳴委員準備"},{"start":11420.236,"end":11448.381,"text":"主席各位先進大家好我是更生少年公安協會的謝主任那我們協會其實從以前就一直在做兒少 少年相關從司法開始做的一個服務然後到現在其實涵蓋了一級二級三級預防甚至到家庭的服務那其實在我們早在二十多年前在從事這個服務的時候就看見其實兒少的問題都跟家庭有息息相關那所以我今天要再分享的是在我們在這個修法建議上面有提出幾個部分"},{"start":11449.861,"end":11477.636,"text":"其實回歸到CRC的精神跟我們兒少權益其實很重要的一件事情是怎麼樣帶領孩子能夠得到一個完全的保障那看得到現行的法令其實對於兒虐或者是施暴這些規則其實還是有所不足所以未來如果能夠將結合家暴法將精神還有在身體上精神心理甚至其他暴力的虐待事件放到法令裡面的話我想這是可以有助於那個部分的完善但"},{"start":11478.396,"end":11498.132,"text":"同時其實可能要配搭的是當實際上在執行層面的時候因為我們我們協會現在有在承接性侵害暴力家防中心的一個小寶物的業務那也發現實際上在執行層面的時候其實針對精神跟語言甚至是"},{"start":11499.133,"end":11519.223,"text":"其他形式的暴力他們在調查的時候其實發現有很大的困難那更不要講說當實際上在介入做這些保護調查的過程當中如果遇到家長抗拒或者是不願意訪視的時候其實相關的一些強制力跟保護甚至是要求其實不足的雖然在兒童法裡面有提到如果"},{"start":11520.523,"end":11549.514,"text":"家長或者是實際照顧者他不願意接受訪視的話我們可以有其他的相關強制措施但實際上卻只有行政上的裁罰但實際上的落實卻跟實際上有大落差因為回到警政或者司法他們其實都還是會受監他們原來的魔法的要求以至於他們沒有辦法真實的實際採取行動那我覺得這個會是在我們預防端甚至是在緊急的調查端一個很大的漏洞所以這個我會建議在未來我們的兒少法修法的時候我要考慮這一段"},{"start":11550.074,"end":11566.605,"text":"那第二個其實我們從CRC的精神看到家庭才是我們最需要去保障跟支持的因為家庭就是孩子養育的環境但是在我們現行的所有的法令裡面其實沒有針對家庭有比較完善的一些支持跟咨詢"},{"start":11567.746,"end":11592.427,"text":"現行的兒少法裡面只有提到兒少福利機構有提供諮詢跟輔導但實際上所有的法庭裡面只有強調他的責任剛剛前面的先進有提到責任跟職責但是這些家長能夠提供怎麼樣的支持有沒有法源依據只有家庭教育中心跟家庭保育防治法但是我們這幾年的經驗看到的是家長的困難不是只在教育而已"},{"start":11593.007,"end":11609.545,"text":"他們實際上的支持其實是很難很難的被這個公佈門所被支持所以我覺得這個有必要在修法的時候甚至未來修法緊接的政策跟配套需要留意其實我過去有發現早在921地震不久之後其實"},{"start":11610.166,"end":11627.872,"text":"全台灣各地有曾經成立過一段時間的家庭支持中心那個時候其實我曾經有看過那個研究報告當時的事辦計畫裡面也發現他們當時在執行的時候其實對家庭的介入是有成效的但是後來因為轉型成社會福利中心的一種面向的時候當然"},{"start":11628.692,"end":11652.127,"text":"好像看是你顧及的全面更廣但相對的因為社福中心要負責的家庭面向非常的多那兒少呢他的其實他的資源甚至他的那個專責就會被稀釋掉我覺得這個其實是需要我們好好的去看待的部分那最後一個提到的一樣就是前面先進也有提到關於替代性照顧的政策其實對於這些孩子的照顧現行我們"},{"start":11653.632,"end":11679.801,"text":"也看到其實我們有很多的討論也有很多的資源但實際上當然資源絕對不夠這個是個問題所以我覺得這也是未來在除了法令以外我們未來的一些政策跟資源怎麼樣在這些孩子真的沒有辦法在家裡照顧之後他就在社區性的在替代性照顧的機構或者是兒童團體家庭的這些資源上面能夠更到位我想這個是我們想要提出來的怎麼樣給特別是給工作"},{"start":11682.543,"end":11696.599,"text":"當實際服務的社工人員、保護人員、身扶人員能夠有專責待遇那當然還有包含他們網絡之間的一直跨專業的合作因為我過去也在我們機構有從事安置保護性的實務工作也發現其實"},{"start":11698.041,"end":11715.668,"text":"真的現在會到安置機構的孩子他合併的行為 情緒 心理等等的問題其實很容易在教養跟挑戰上面其實是非常的大的即使是有各專業團隊的照顧者但當這些孩子有醫療上的需要甚至有一些需要警政司法的協助的時候"},{"start":11716.388,"end":11744.693,"text":"其實當我們在跟這些單位在合作一樣就會有回歸到在其他系統端他們對這樣的族群的不認識不熟悉就算認識了解但是他們的法令他們的要求沒有辦法提供比較更積極性的協助的時候其實就會讓這些孩子或者在機構裡面產生對立跟衝突或者是說那個照顧沒辦法到位我想這個的確是比較要迫切解決的問題那最後一個也是回歸到現行在替代性安置照顧的"},{"start":11746.053,"end":11774.726,"text":"政策現在有很多的多元化但是也發現那個弄到後來有點複雜所以怎麼樣讓最家外安置的界定有家庭式安置跟機構式安置的這個東西能夠比較清楚一個綱要那形態可以很多元但是如果說每一樣東西都要訂的非常細都要拉高層級其實到最後真的會有點亂那大家也不知道到底我應該要用什麼方式去服務這些孩子那以上是我們這邊的想法謝謝好謝謝我們謝忠業主任"},{"start":11775.196,"end":11777.218,"text":"那接下來我們的王玉敏委員主席還有我們現場今天出席長期都在兒童領域一直奮鬥的夥伴還有我們的專家學者還有我們今天的官員大家午安大家好那我想我今天上午其實聆聽蠻多今天出席的各位的意見我雖然人不在現場但是其實辦公室持續轉播當中"},{"start":11805.4,"end":11823.973,"text":"那這個大家在食物上面的一些見解跟看法我想今天主管機關理事長在這邊食物上怎麼樣修得更細膩這些議題我想都非常值得納入參考但是今天我在這邊我要談一個比較是系統性跟整合性跟我們怎麼樣來回應新興問題到底政府做好準備沒有"},{"start":11828.696,"end":11854.455,"text":"第一個我要強調的是其實從事兒童福利工作過去這麼多年到立法院我看到的一個問題就是我們現在跨部會整合一直是一個非常嚴重的問題以今天來說我們因應了數位發展我們已經成立了數位發展部結果今天數位發展部出的報告我想大家看了真的是會大失所望嚇一跳真的是一夜這樣子"},{"start":11856.127,"end":11862.721,"text":"一张纸而且字体还放大那这个怎么来因应我们未来这些儿少面临到的网络时代"},{"start":11863.54,"end":11892.52,"text":"這樣子的一個挑戰所以各部會真的準備好了嗎我看到目前為止很多的工作還是落在衛福部那兒少工作就落在社家署其中的一顆這樣我覺得這個是在我們整個政府資源裡面如果我們今天談兒少權益我們在談未來的修法怎麼樣跟CRC接軌那請問各部會在這件事情上面真的都有相對的投入嗎在我看來其實是並沒有"},{"start":11893.76,"end":11915.338,"text":"那所以这个部分在CRC的第二次审查意见当中其实也提到了我们目前国内就是缺乏一个专者的机关刚刚其实有很多的儿校单位的代表通通都提到这个问题但是政府好像充耳不闻其实民间也开过多次记者会我个人也倡议过多次但是一直都没有得到"},{"start":11915.788,"end":11939.215,"text":"政府一個很正面的回應那我覺得這件事情如果不處理事實上我們法修的再好怎麼樣去指揮各部會怎麼讓各部會動起來我覺得這件事情是沒有辦法得到有更有效的解決我想女士自己也是從社政體系出來你現在進到這邊應該會覺得有一些會力不從心你要指揮其他部會談何容易教育部幹嘛聽你的 數位部幹嘛聽你的"},{"start":11944.79,"end":11945.577,"text":"大家都是平行單位"},{"start":11947.734,"end":11967.966,"text":"所以怎麼樣有一個專責的兒少機構我們就把他入法吧就是這一次如果要重新修法直接在兒少全法就說我們中央要有兒少的專責機構如果有這樣的修法突破我覺得那這個一方面回應CRC的意見一方面也是回應今天大家花那麼多時間出席一再的呼籲這個就讓他入法然後讓他去發揮跨部會整合的工作我覺得這是第一點"},{"start":11976.591,"end":11984.294,"text":"我要指出來的唯有這樣子我們才可以就是有更充足的人力持續性的來關注這個議題很多大家在反映的問題也才可以得到更有效的一個解決那第二個我要提的是當我們一方面在談這一些福利的時候別忘我們現在衛福部其實是把健康跟福利是整合在一起的但我們現行的很多做法其實並沒有"},{"start":12002.253,"end":12021.091,"text":"所以剛剛有這個與會的代表提到日本的做法就是說在這種學齡前其實他就啟動不是只是啟動社工我們什麼時候都說社工要加放啟動公衛的體系甚至是這一些教育的人員大家同步我們可以到家庭去做這一種"},{"start":12021.806,"end":12048.192,"text":"我們在看我們適合做幾歲以下的孩子的這種家庭到訪的工作一方面是觀察一方面是關懷可以主動去發掘問題我覺得我們一直都沒有做好這樣一個整合性的工作每次新修訂一個法其實加壓的都是我們社工的人力社工的工作而不是各部會大家動起來所以這種更前瞻性的更走在前端的透過整合式的方式我們可以及早去發現問題更早一步"},{"start":12050.672,"end":12051.635,"text":"去避免這些兒少的悲劇的發生我覺得這樣的一個議題其實值得"},{"start":12056.212,"end":12062.757,"text":"我們把它放到我們未來的修法的精神裡面其實應該要去做那最近其實也有一屆在倡議我們要成立國家級的兒童健康中心他講的就是用醫療的體系讓三歲以下的孩子他有一個整合性的健康服務然後透過醫療端你也可以在第一線很快的先去發現孩子的問題然後再回饋給這個"},{"start":12082.071,"end":12102.602,"text":"福利體系然後我們共同去做這些防制性的工作那像這種其他國家一些比較好的做法而且我們應該整合各部會的力量共同投入資源的我也覺得這個面向我們現在很缺乏其實應該是要這樣子走而不是持續只是加壓社工的工作壓力而已第三個我要講的是"},{"start":12103.642,"end":12111.984,"text":"有關於新興的霸凌議題跟心理健康的議題我們所有的修法要與時俱進但是今天很一樣看到這個衛福部初步的初稿事實上在這部分的琢磨太少在關於網路的安全網路的議題霸凌的議題心理健康的議題好像都還是排除在現在衛福部的思維裡面但是這個議題我覺得很重要特別是現在少子化每一個孩子都變得很重要"},{"start":12131.907,"end":12149.916,"text":"而我們的兒少全法開宗明義就是他的身心健康不是身體健康心理也要健康而這一部分我覺得目前不是衛福部的工作教育部其實也責務龐大孩子就在學校裡面就是很多跟心理健康有關的這個教育方面"},{"start":12150.416,"end":12170.102,"text":"我覺得教育部不是只有學生輔導法就是通過修法通過在前端你們可以在心理健康的面向給孩子更多的課程跟支持特別是霸凌的議題我覺得是要從教育做起的所以教育部在這個部分今天也沒有看到在這個部分有太多的琢磨我認為應該是要做那從前端的你的心理健康做好後面的自殺防治"},{"start":12175.604,"end":12204.51,"text":"他的案例个案数自然会下降这个部分也应该要做然后大家一直在呼吁的儿少死亡的回溯分析基本上这部分我已经提了修法意见了我非常的赞成唯有了解事件的原因找到真正的原因你才可以提出好的解决的方法所以民间大家的呼吁跟诉求我想这个部分今天卫福部应该都听见了这个部分也是非常的重要"},{"start":12205.049,"end":12214.474,"text":"那最後是有關於兒少他打工環境的安全問題最近麥當勞事件其實再一次讓大家看到了我想這個台少盟也一直在倡議"},{"start":12215.53,"end":12240.05,"text":"這一些青少年他的工作環境的安全的問題那我覺得勞動部其實過去在這個部分的琢磨還是太少雖然你們有時候會提說暑假到了而少打工安全但是我覺得那一些其實是不夠的而且是比較表淺的就是從這次麥當勞事件你可以看到的確在16到18歲當中他們在工作過程如果遭遇到職場上面的這種權勢的壓迫性騷性侵那他"},{"start":12245.094,"end":12268.321,"text":"的整個因應的處理方式他的求助管道這些機制我覺得我們對兒少做的其實是遠遠不足那如果在這一次的相對應式的修法當中在兒少全法基本加工當中在這一些我們通通都可以把它納件完那我相信這個涵蓋的面向才會是最完整的那最後我還是要再次謝謝今天出席的兒少的單位跟專家學者我想打造一個兒少一個更友善"},{"start":12272.401,"end":12293.773,"text":"更健康更安全的環境這是一個持續性的工作那我也呼籲我們的政府要有與時俱進的概念而不是停留在20年前而是看一看現在兒少他在經歷什麼樣的環境跟變化那最新的挑戰是什麼我覺得我們要有能力這個公部門跟民間一起合作我們來因應這些挑戰然後為兒少繼續努力謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝我們的王玉敏委員接下來李坤辰委員"},{"start":12312.425,"end":12333.658,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝月群委員 還有說這個社福界的先進 還有包含我們衛福部教育部 我們這個行政單位那非常謝謝月群委員今天召開這個公聽會 那其實在很快 去年 你要算去年六月了 去年六月底的時候包含這個月群委員 還有我跟楚英委員 要召開一個公聽會"},{"start":12334.418,"end":12353.855,"text":"那時候是特別是針對這個兒少全法的第69條的這個修法的建議那與會有一些先進當時候有來參加這個公聽會那時候是有達成一些共識就是說透過修法或是行政指導的這個方式對這個兒少全法的第69條第一項第一款的兒虐的部分"},{"start":12354.375,"end":12381.4,"text":"制定相關的這個歷史的框架還有例外的條款符合公共利益但是也要兼顧這個受害者這個潛在受害者的知情權那時候是六月底的事情然後當然後來這個衛福部他有做出一些指引但是呢陸陸續續還是發生了相關的一些事情這個媒體要怎麼去報這個分寸跟這個界限還是很難拿捏"},{"start":12382.58,"end":12408.269,"text":"那大家都知道說這個第69條它本來是要保害這個要保護這個兒少的隱私那避免這個二次的傷害那大家都提到就是說這個這個幼兒園這個是台北市的是培諾米達幼兒園那現在這個案子大家都知道了這個園長的兒子毛俊生涉及的猥褻性侵等等那這個時候這個案子在剛開始的時候這個媒體"},{"start":12409.549,"end":12434.446,"text":"都知道 然後家長也去澄清不管是跟門醫代表或是跟媒體來做澄清但是媒體那時候就不敢報 為什麼因為他怕說受到這個兒少權法第69條的裁罰但是他其實69條他也說得很清楚如果涉及到重大的公共利益經過行政機關的審議核可媒體也不會受罰"},{"start":12435.787,"end":12448.619,"text":"但是這樣子講好像是說你69條有一個例外的規定但是變成這個地方政府或是說媒體他們也有很多的不確定的因素在所以就變成說在報的時候"},{"start":12451.261,"end":12469.794,"text":"還是不知道怎麼去做會比較好我舉一個最近的一個例子好了這是在這個去年的這個12月在台中的一個國小的棒球棒球隊一個終點的教練涉及性侵跟猥褻男童受害者至少有31個人那這個教練呢"},{"start":12470.334,"end":12481.866,"text":"之前他就有前科那學校把關那是另外一層那另外一層就是說這個台中市的這個社會局呢要求媒體不能寫出教練的姓氏"},{"start":12484.698,"end":12504.336,"text":"為什麼不能寫出這個教練的姓氏因為社會局認為說這個國小還有這個棒球教練的圈子很小然後又說這個教練的姓氏比較特別如果你把這個教練的名字把它講出來就可以推測到哪些學生受到遭殃了"},{"start":12505.517,"end":12518.884,"text":"那這個又回到之前的一個這個有關幼兒園這個事情這個是這個台中市社會局跟媒體講說你不要報那不要報出這個教練的這個姓氏不能寫出來"},{"start":12520.585,"end":12543.413,"text":"這個就變成說那衛福部當初雖然是有做出個指引那又回到又說那到底這個指引的這個界限在哪裡那我們明明是要保護這個受害者那但是呢地方政府認為說那你如果把這個教練縣市寫出來的話那大家就知道說哪一些人是可能是潛在的一個受害者但是你如果不報出來的話那是不是有可能有更多的這一個受害者"},{"start":12544.714,"end":12557.163,"text":"所以我是覺得說第69條真的是要好好的去思考一下我們是最大的利益都是保障這一個受害者根據這一個衛福部的指引"},{"start":12559.093,"end":12584.435,"text":"他還寫得很清楚 我看我們保護室的司長也講了他說按照台北市幼兒園的這個例子這個照理是不得揭露但是要協助媒體在報導兒少跟性暴力事件時能夠兼顧社會公義保護被害人的隱私然後避免對被害人還有家庭造成惡毒的傷害然後他可以寫唯獨不可以揭露"},{"start":12585.757,"end":12596.375,"text":"僅限於被害人的相關資料 避免惡毒傷害那如果是這樣子的話 那為什麼台中市的這個案子台中的這個社會局會要求這個媒體不要寫"},{"start":12597.703,"end":12618.657,"text":"那所以這個界限在哪裡那我是覺得說後來不要變成說是這個中央跟地方政府大家在推來推去就是說地方就說你這個中央的規定的不夠明確然後中央就說有啊我有這些指引啊我這些指引最近說得很清楚啊你們在上個月的時候你們還召開這一個這一個一些有召開一個會議好像還指出說這一個"},{"start":12619.958,"end":12646.289,"text":"有哪一些額外的事件那媒體要怎麼寫那不然有可能會觸發那所以說你們也是有指出一些指引出來但是我是覺得說在目前為止這個指引還不是還不是弄得很清楚所以包含這個我記得魏群緣也是有在做修法我覺得這是第一個大家還要是針對這69條的部分我覺得大家還是要再努力這個怎麼樣讓它這個"},{"start":12648.91,"end":12672.161,"text":"這個媒體能夠報導出來但是能夠保障受害人我覺得這部分衛福部還是要再加強那第二個我要談的就是說這個國家安全委員會在昨天有公布了這個第一份校園級安置機構兒少性侵害系統性的這個訪查報告那其實看了這個報告我沒有完全看完但是我根據媒體所揭露的就是說"},{"start":12673.484,"end":12681.611,"text":"在2023年的這個性侵害的通報案件當中未滿18歲的被害人佔了54.765155個人這個數字其實蠻令人震驚也讓人心痛的然後他也訪查了74個案子"},{"start":12692.159,"end":12709.793,"text":"三分之二是性侵害的被害人三分之一是重要他人然後在訪談的這個對象裡面他說在18歲前在校園或是安置機構當中遭受性侵害者發生在被害人的6歲到12歲之間的比例是最高"},{"start":12710.954,"end":12725.569,"text":"然後呢 這個受害的地點呢這個校外私人空間最多 那其實是校內然後呢包含了這個失對生的性侵害及權力不對等和權力濫用那也有生對生的性侵害"},{"start":12726.63,"end":12742.51,"text":"然後呢這個除了這個之外罷隨的這個霸淫的行為也伴隨這個性侵害那如果教師如果敏感度不夠的話沒有辦法其實發現會加劇被害人被排擠的一個狀況那我相信說這個國家人權委員會的這個報告"},{"start":12745.573,"end":12766.961,"text":"也是可以作為我們未來在修這個兒少法的一個相關的一個參考跟建議所以說現在我們已經有在研修要來修改這個兒少權法兒少性剝削的這個防治條例還有建制性影像的處理中心等等那但是呢這個如果按照這個人權會的報告來講的話這一個"},{"start":12771.822,"end":12793.554,"text":"兒少人權受侵害的情況依舊相當的嚴重學校與安置機構性侵害的案件也需要更多的關懷我們要持續來支持兒少要勇於發聲重視兒少的表意權我們也希望說行政部門或是學校機構針對問題能夠找到具體可行的解決方法"},{"start":12798.556,"end":12824.289,"text":"那幫助校園機構有效從預防辨認通報處理兒少的性侵案那是解決一些結構性的一些問題然後這個人權會還有一個九項的政策建議我就不再贅述那這個希望我們相關單位包含這一個衛福部教育部能夠做一個參考再次謝謝就請我還有所謂的所有與會的這些社福界的先進謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":12826.772,"end":12841.662,"text":"好 謝謝我們的李昏宸委員接下來我們是不是覺得專家及委員均已發言完畢然後我們現在請各行政機關列席代表均做整體回應首先先請我們的衛福部"},{"start":12849.099,"end":12872.227,"text":"主席在座各位專家學者各部會的代表大家午安非常榮幸能夠代表衛福部來這邊對於剛剛與會的許多學者專家來做一個總體的回覆那我的回應大概主要分成四個部分第一個是有關於理念第二個是有關於組織架構第三個是有關於對象區分以及最後我們的分幾個分政策"},{"start":12872.947,"end":12896.329,"text":"那麼在有關於理念的部分我想大家都非常同意一致同意我們基本上應該是根據的整個CRC裡面四大原則包括兒少最佳利益發展權生活發展權表育權等等那麼我想在這裡面有一個具體的一個回應我想大家都非常關心到底我們在有關於整個兒少選法我想整個這個理念的這一個執行的部分跟我們目前現行"},{"start":12897.029,"end":12916.562,"text":"是不是要來跟這個兒少基本法以及兒少政策綱領要做一個整個統一的一個回應我想我們會帶回去來仔細研究那我也不瞞各位說在今天開會前昨天其實已經到行政院跟鄭麗君副院長也已經有報告過那我們大概會"},{"start":12917.663,"end":12941.166,"text":"還有另外有一個其實非常重要的其實就是家庭政策Family Policy那我們會來考慮是不是用家庭政策來做一個整個總體的一個討論結合我們現在目前我跟各位報告我自己是留學德國在德國其實在有關於這個部分其實基本上是還是放在Family Policy這個架構裡面"},{"start":12942.848,"end":12968.069,"text":"這衍生到剛剛王玉敏委員還有我想剛剛林業勤委員還有大家各位非常非常關心的一個就是有關組織的部分我必須要說確實我們現在目前衛福部我們現在目前大概這個部分是在社家署裡面就一個就一個組這個其實事實上是要來因應這個這麼大的一件事情我想是利有未待那其實這也是總統的一個政見他裡面有提到就是說希望能夠盡速來成立"},{"start":12968.909,"end":12996.921,"text":"跟兒少相關的這個組織那這個我們會來全力推動其實事實上在邱部長他所主持之下我們部內其實內部已經有做過一些整個內部的組織檢討那實在是的那個層級啦那看起來可能還是有所不足所以我們會帶回去我想剛剛各位也都非常非常關心類似像這個日本的這個內閣府下面所挾的這個兒童及少年廳其實在日本的廳其實事實上就是一個部啦"},{"start":12998.102,"end":13025.382,"text":"類似像這樣的那我有跟各位報告像德國德國有一個事實上就是Ministerium für Frauen, Erden und Jugend就是兒童青少年婦女與家庭政策部那這個其實或許也是一個我們共同可以來討論的一個方向那麼第三個有關於對象的部分在這邊其實大概有三個部分我們會未來會從三個方面一個是所謂的"},{"start":13026.581,"end":13051.911,"text":"普遍性Universal第二個Selective選擇性以及第三個指標性的對象來進行討論那麼這裡面我想大家都非常關心的有關於零歲到六歲甚至我們現在目前應該到18那麼這裡面有選擇性包括像身心障礙或者說特殊需求等等還有一些指標性的一個家庭好那麼有關於政策的部分我想大概做四個方面的一個一個是大家非常關心的"},{"start":13052.631,"end":13079.686,"text":"有關於兒少事故的這一個部分我非常同意林業勤委員還有我想跟靖娟這邊也非常長久以來都討論到有關於這個0到6歲那我們是不是應該延伸到18歲這個有關於死因的這一個回覆然後還有也因為這一個整個這個causality能夠有效建立起來建立系統性的兒童事故傷害防治跟有效的這個計畫類似像美國這樣的一個program另外第二個"},{"start":13080.966,"end":13099.581,"text":"是有關於這一個替代性照顧那我跟各位報告有關替代性照顧的政策我們事實上現在目前也在嚴明整個替代性照顧的總體的檢討那這裡面我們也承認在過去的一個方案裡面可能在策略跟對象性之間有比較不一致那雖然就是說國外的就是國際報告裡面"},{"start":13101.742,"end":13120.887,"text":"國際委員有很多很多很多指證但是臺灣一定我在這邊我跟各位報告臺灣我們在未來會提出一個五年計劃那這裡面其實有很多也已經跟在座各位像包括林月欣委員等等我們都有些相關討論臺灣必須要建立起自己的本土的這一個替代性照顧政策"},{"start":13121.907,"end":13144.742,"text":"那這裡面包括各部會裡面包括新建師建保署還有教育部這邊我們都會來進行相關的一個研議好這是第二個第三個我想各位都非常非常關心在現在目前新的這一個的這一個時代裡面大家最關心的應該是有關有關網際網路那我跟我也不瞞各位說其實鄭麗君副院長她昨天才說她也是"},{"start":13145.763,"end":13153.992,"text":"一個孩子的媽媽他其實裡面有觀察到就是說現在目前的小孩裡面有很多山西成飲糖飲料甚至"},{"start":13155.916,"end":13178.983,"text":"過多的肥胖垃圾食物的問題導致兒童在發育期間可能大腦上面的一個發展那這個特別是3C那甚至說這個可能是人類的一個可能要面對一個challenge現在目前3C過度的那導致對於現在目前整個現在目前我們下一代他對於整個這一個有關於"},{"start":13180.203,"end":13195.654,"text":"同種協調跟運動方面的這個嚴重不足那這個我想這個應該我們會跟數位部這邊我想對於有關於像這個像Meta啦像平台這些的一個管控來進行相關的一個檢討那麼另外第四個"},{"start":13196.334,"end":13219.373,"text":"那大家有非常關心有關青少年勞動權這裡面因為經濟壓力引誘這個裡面導致這一個像這個電信詐欺性剝削等等這些還有兒童工作證的部分這個我們也都會會內部會來進行相關的研議以上我想先我先代表衛福部來這邊做以上的回應謝謝好謝謝衛福部那接下來請教一步"},{"start":13235.14,"end":13259.725,"text":"安排了這次的公聽會那教育部在這邊也聆聽了非常多的專家學者還有民團組織先進給教育部很多的那個建議那以下代表教育部做一些簡單的回應第一個部分的話就是多位專家有關心到就是家庭教育法有關家庭教育課程的那個實施其實不是只有在結婚之後在家庭教育法第13條"},{"start":13260.985,"end":13271.837,"text":"我們就有規定高級中等以下學校的話每學年要在正式課程之外要安排4小時的課程跟推動跟那個活動那這些其實在課程計畫裡頭都應該會有減和"},{"start":13275.882,"end":13287.337,"text":"那另外如果說對於有重套違規的那個學生家長的話其實也是可以啟動那個家長諮商輔導那另外有委員關心到就是安置機構裡頭的那個兒少他們的學歷比較弱的一個問題"},{"start":13292.483,"end":13311.303,"text":"其實教育部有學習輔助的一個措施其實可以提供學習輔導的一個補助進行差異化跟補救教學我們目前有補助那個蔣正學校還有中途學校那如果安置機構的話他其實他的協助會是在那個"},{"start":13312.484,"end":13335.261,"text":"兒少 安置機構的兒少所在的那個就學的那個學校那這個部分我想我們會跟衛福部跟社政的那個系統在做更密切的那個連結以協助就是安置機構的孩子可以維護他的一個學歷另外就是那個有委員關心就是那個安置機構裡頭的孩子就是復歸的那個問題"},{"start":13336.642,"end":13359.106,"text":"其實會有那個轉型的那個計劃也會有後追但是現在比較我們要落實的就是說這些結束後歸期程的那個孩子如何連接學校的一個輔導系統讓他可以就是由學校的輔導支持系統去接觸那我想這個部分我們也會跟兒輔這邊在做更細緻的一個"},{"start":13363.027,"end":13386.599,"text":"作業的一個討論跟落實那另外曾經委員有關心就是那個未成年少女懷孕的一個問題其實教部有學生懷孕受教群文庫跟輔導要點如果有這種個案的話基本上學校是要成立工作小組的那我們其實比較需要去努力的是說讓這些的個案的那個"},{"start":13388.72,"end":13417.222,"text":"而孩子都可以勇敢的說出來並且接受學校的那個輔導跟支持讓他可以就是維護他的那個就學的權益並且能夠照顧就是能夠順利的一個生產那另外陳偉也有關心黑屋寶寶的權益那在就學的部分其實在112年修正的國家法裡頭他已經有授權執法訂定就是這些無國籍的孩子就讀國小跟國中的一個"},{"start":13418.062,"end":13447.365,"text":"就學的辦法在就學上是沒有問題的我們可以100還有他的學習跟他的一些條件的考量安排他入學另外就是橋南執學院這邊有就是主張就是要終止一切對兒童的一個暴力目前教育部非常的落實就是教育基本法第八條的禁止體法的政策我們最近修了一些相關的法規包括幼招法教保人員條例性平法"},{"start":13448.446,"end":13472.885,"text":"校園辦理的防治準則跟我們高級中等下學校的解聘停聘的之前辦法其實已經有規範就是任何的全國的一個教職員都不可以對兒少有任何不當的那個對待那如果有違反的話是依法令做適當的一個處理那這些全體的那個教職人員包括體育教練跟社團的老師是都"},{"start":13474.466,"end":13487.219,"text":"需要受這些法令的規範的另外就是有很多的委員有專家有關心到就是親子教育的那個問題那其實教育部在家庭教育中心這邊也有一個"},{"start":13488.602,"end":13511.561,"text":"經理教育需求者評估的基準對於社安網裡頭就是比較是脆弱家庭的如果是經訪是認為有家庭資源協助的一個需求的話其實我們也會去受理提供一個協助那另外委員也有關心就是那個家庭教育資源的那個"},{"start":13514.023,"end":13537.584,"text":"夠不夠就是家長如何去取得這些家庭教育資源其實家庭教育資源中心的網站有一些的一個手冊包括我跟我的孩子我的我家孩子要上學的等等親子教育手冊我們也依據那個手冊有拍了88個單元的那個短講影片我們也歡迎就是幫我們推廣運用那另外就是那個"},{"start":13539.185,"end":13562.509,"text":"有多位專家有提到就是輔導先行跟輔導教育的一個問題那各位大家都知道就是學生輔導法在去年年底修正通過那因為這個法修正通過其實全國會有603名的國民中學跟國民小學的一個專任輔導教室的一個設置還有192位的專任的"},{"start":13566.951,"end":13580.442,"text":"輔導專業專業人員會進入校園那當然就是不是只有設置這些人員我們也會加強督導的機制並且就是剛有委員建議說希望能夠改善整個諮商空間那個設備等等去維護一個"},{"start":13583.924,"end":13609.809,"text":"比較友善的一個輔導的一個空間那另外有多位專業學者也建議到就是有關那個兒少表益的那個部分現在高級中等教育法從110年修法之後在高中校會代表他其實就是有一個學生代表有一個規定不得少於8%那在112年修的國教法裡頭他也有就是明定"},{"start":13610.209,"end":13638.459,"text":"學校應邀請學生練習校務會議然後提升校園的一個民主的那個價值那有多位專家有關心到就是孩子的那個申訴還有就是說他們有受到不合理的待遇的時候他有沒有權利可以表達那其實高級中等教育法跟國家法裡頭授權執法其實我們有訂了一個就是學生的申訴跟再申訴的一個"},{"start":13640.06,"end":13655.957,"text":"審議的一個設置要點那也有相關的那個機制我們鼓勵孩子可以勇敢的說出來就是如果你在學校裡頭老師或是學校有各種不當的那個對待或者是不當管教的話可以透過口頭書面"},{"start":13658.579,"end":13684.934,"text":"電子郵件等等反映那其實部裡頭也有一個反霸凌專線1953會有專人來處理我們也希望努力的去營造這樣的一個就是友善校園孩子不要受到委屈那江港守護聯盟的陳顧問有關心到新北事件之後校園維護的問題那也跟各位報告就是國家護署我們有一個就是"},{"start":13686.495,"end":13707.686,"text":"過渡性教育措施的一個衍接機制 目前我們有補助各縣市建置一個過渡性一個輔導的一個關懷據點 有補助各縣市對於這些有可能是比較偏差行為或是觸犯刑法法律行為的一個孩子要返回校園之前我們希望有一個更"},{"start":13708.706,"end":13733.707,"text":"就是特別的一個照顧提供他多元的一個輔導學習活動讓他可以逐步的回到校園跟適應學校的一個生活那陳培委員他關心到就是我們教育產業不適合人員的那個通報跟查詢系統那目前其實教育部是有兼職這個系統我們也努力的跟相關部會尤其是衛福部這邊的資料"},{"start":13734.788,"end":13763.619,"text":"去做那個借接那當然我們也很希望說這些能夠擴及到就是學生的社團的教練或是一些社團活動的那個老師那委員這邊有關心到就是如果有不同身份的那個這些不適合人員用志工或其他的名義進入的話那我們如何的去防範那其實國教署我們也努力的就是想要在這個部分就是盡量建立一個比較"},{"start":13764.439,"end":13793.488,"text":"綿密的一個就是檢核的一個機制希望可以保護我們的那個兒少那王美瑋也有關心到就是我們在心理健康的議題好像比較沒有提到其實教務部我們為了落實總統的健康台灣的一個願景我們也很積極的在維護兒少的心理健康我們會全面的去建立一個社會情緒學習SEL的一個"},{"start":13795.17,"end":13808.867,"text":"而在國小、國中到高中的階段都能夠建置這樣的一個心理健康的一個維護的一個課程並且去落實現在已經在高中階段實施的一個心理調適假那以上"},{"start":13810.949,"end":13834.605,"text":"我想教育部會非常的誠懇的跟各部會合作我們持續落實教育基本法的相關的規定保障兒少的學習跟受教育的權利並且依兒童權利公約更續的精進相關的法令跟配套措施努力的提供完善的一個教育環境 謝謝好 接下來請勞動部"},{"start":13843.471,"end":13865.692,"text":"主席國會與會先進 大家好那今天呢各位有提出這個兒少勞動權益提供很多那個寶貴的意見那可以作為本部的後續相關政策的嚴厲參考那我針對今天與會的代表提出的意見大概做了幾點的一個回應那有關就是有代表提到就是有關這個壯世代人力的這個運用那我們勞動部"},{"start":13869.716,"end":13881.229,"text":"也會持續來推動這個退休後的這個再就業那當然有關這個利用這個壯士代人力育兒的指導的服務那這個部分我們也會來跟相關部會來共同來做後續的這個研議"},{"start":13884.953,"end":13891.216,"text":"那另外有關這個陳輝金委員就是關心這個復幼就是移工復幼的這些權利那我們今年1月6號已經這個發布了移工復幼權益的保障指引來供各界參考那對於後續的一些就是移工的一個復幼的權益"},{"start":13905.682,"end":13914.469,"text":"這個部分我們也會跟其他部會來共同的一個協助那其實在座的代表其實都很關心這個有關這個勞動的這個教育那其實我們勞動部門每年其實我們都有辦理這個相關的這個校園的這個"},{"start":13923.615,"end":13943.75,"text":"巡迴的一些活動那也有包含這個教育教材的這些編制那也希望能夠將這個勞動權益的觀念能夠入校扎根所以這個我們會就是持續的來做那另外就是也有先進提到就是有關這個就是有關勞動教育的這個立法的這個促進"},{"start":13949.594,"end":13954.237,"text":"那這個部分的話我們從111年起我們持續與10個部會來合作推動這個勞動教育促進綱領所以也希望能夠提升國人這個勞動的這個意識那因為修法的話可能會涉及的面向很廣所以這個還是要在持續的這個跟跨部會的討論跟蒐集各界的一個意見"},{"start":13974.589,"end":13991.14,"text":"那像剛剛不管是林玉琴委員或是王玉如委員都有提到就是說這個勞動權益的這個相關的申訴的這個機制的一個落實其實我們勞動部這邊其實也有設定設置相關的民意信箱還有24小時的這個1955的這個勞工申訴專線那其實我們從112年開始我們在有關辦理這個1955的這個化物人員的教育訓練我們其實"},{"start":14003.628,"end":14028.646,"text":"就有納入這個兒少溝通的技巧或是兒少保護的認識跟相關的社會福利資源的介紹等於說透過這些申訴管道能夠在特別針對兒少的部分能夠在他的權益部分在予以強化那另外呢在勞動檢查的部分呢我們勞動部的年度檢查方針其實也有針對青少年童工保護規定有納入檢查的這個重點"},{"start":14030.788,"end":14045.119,"text":"督促各檢查機構針對經常僱用青少年像這些加油站啊超商餐飲業我們都有加強的這個實施安全衛生的一個檢查那另外呢其實但剛剛其實因為先進都有提到就是說"},{"start":14045.959,"end":14072.885,"text":"有關那個就是職場的就是這個性侵害或性騷擾不法侵害的這一些防治那性供法在去年3月8號這個性騷擾防治的規定已經全面的施行那其實不管在強化僱主的這個防治的性騷擾防治義務或者是強化整個外部的這個申訴機制其實都已經有法令整個有一個全面性的修正"},{"start":14073.425,"end":14089.312,"text":"所以這個部分我們當然必須要在持續的強化這方面的宣導也要督責這個事業單位能夠來落實這個整個雇主的一個性騷擾的義務那今天非常感謝各位先進的意見 以上好 接下來我們的書發布"},{"start":14104.451,"end":14127.92,"text":"主席與會嘉賓大家好速發部針對今天網路安全防治的處理然後各單位的意見然後進行檢要的回應的說明針對網路有害內容的相關案件現行已有依鵝哨犬法的規定然後有成立iWIN的機制然後建議"},{"start":14129.24,"end":14152.113,"text":"就是透過iWIN就是建議網路平台業者移除相關的內容那至於重大的案件的話內政部警政署會依法的處理那至於涉及網路詐騙就是剛才與會單位有提到網路詐騙或者涉及兒少有害內容那經通知那個網際網路平台業者"},{"start":14152.853,"end":14177.986,"text":"就是不下架或者是說找不到平台業者的話那沒辦法移除這些有害的內容的話就是經執法機關就是那個依法令那個ISP就是網際網路接取服務提供者就是像中華遠傳這些業者要限制接取的時候然後並通知那個本部的那個財團法人那個臺網中心那個書法部會"},{"start":14181.075,"end":14194.2,"text":"處請臺網中心透過他建立的DNS RPD的自律機制對違法網站做停滯解析讓一般的大部分民眾都沒辦法瀏覽到有害的網站"},{"start":14195.12,"end":14221.361,"text":"那另外抒發部近期已經有聽到各部會的意見有建立聯防溝通交流的平台那定期召開的會議與有關部會、電商、網路廣告平台業者像Meta、Google就是做交流的討論包含近期關注的電子煙的防治相關的議題加速"},{"start":14223.763,"end":14245.715,"text":"那個相關案件那個有害內容就是下架的處理那未來會速發部也會與各部會那個共同合作然後就是協助制定相關的政策那營造可信賴安全的那個網路環境那以上說明謝謝接下來司法院"},{"start":14257.122,"end":14280.038,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位中間協同及在場先進今天很榮幸會要參加這個公聽會 也聽到很多寶貴的指教跟意見 那我就請代表司法院做一下幾點整體回應第一個提到有關那個處罰少年的這個復學跟就業的這個問題其實現在少年事件處理法第42條第5項第6項有規定 就是少年法院認為有這個"},{"start":14282.239,"end":14307.982,"text":"副學還有這個就業的問題是可以在評估少年有需保護性後任有必要時去召開這個資源連結會議那司法院跟行政院也在113年12月召開這個少年政策協商平台會議的時候就這個副學的部分已經有一個共識了就是就這個不適合直接返校的少年要透過教育部嚴厲的這個過渡性教育措施去處理"},{"start":14308.723,"end":14333.548,"text":"那而後也會繼續督促推動各地方法院跟政府合作去解決這個少年賦學的問題這是第一點第二點就是有關於這個非處罰兒少的這個問題那少年事件處理法修正以後已經把這個未滿12歲的兒童是用少事法規定排除然後也就這個少年的曝險行為改採這個行政先行的制度"},{"start":14334.308,"end":14358.644,"text":"所以說在結論上來講就如同我們今天提出的這個書面意見的第5頁我們是建議把這個暴險兒少非製處罰的暴險及騙他行為回歸兒少權法做一個整體的規範同時就那個依照少年事件處理法設置的這個少年輔導委員會也把他以往這個兒少權法去做規範這個整體的配套才會比較完整"},{"start":14359.384,"end":14387.252,"text":"好那第三個是針對這個兒少表育權跟友善司法環境的建立我在來司法院以前我在地方法院擔任14年的家事法官我對這個真的是非常非常的有感觸非常非常有感觸好那就這個部分我先簡單講一下我們現在已經有跟法官一再強調兒少的表育權他到法院來是他的權利不是他的義務這個我們一定要尊重他因為對兒少而言到法院來不一定對他的身心是健康的"},{"start":14387.762,"end":14406.501,"text":"那就對兒照到法院來這個部分法院這邊也做了很多協助第一個在空間的建置上現在各地方法院只要空間人配合我們都建立一個很溫馨的詢問室我記得我剛當法官的時候我只能把兒照拉到我旁邊拉到法台上來問他因為我沒有辦法這樣上對一下跟他講話那我們現在建立了一個專業的"},{"start":14407.682,"end":14427.161,"text":"的詢問是配合專業的資源協助包括社工程序監理人心理師的介入所以基本上我們都希望兒童到了法庭在表意的時候他是在一個很安全的環境回去他不會造成他心理的負擔所以這個部分我們已經非常非常的努力在做那再加上這個"},{"start":14430.502,"end":14446.388,"text":"兒少我們還有一個方案就是我們協助他的倒庭我們在倒庭前我們會透過社會福利團體提供的這個倒庭前的輔助資源還希望他們能夠理解法庭的環境可以在這裡充分的表意所以這個對我們來講真的是非常非常重要我們一直都在努力的推進"},{"start":14447.768,"end":14466.106,"text":"第四個就這個安置的問題這個就如同我們書面意見的第三頁 第四頁再融入一點點時間第一個我們建議這個安置的要件要加以修訂因為目前有關繼續安置跟延長安置中並沒有明定要考量額少的退加利益這部分我們認為應該要把它明定入法這是第一個"},{"start":14466.827,"end":14484.751,"text":"第一個就是在安置執行的後端其實這是我們第一線法官碰到最大的問題我們每次都會為安置而少的意見那我們最常聽到就是因為不適應或者是認為他們是遭到處罰的一方而不願 就是想要反價但是我們也知道反價可能對他們不是最好的"},{"start":14485.131,"end":14504.731,"text":"所以安置怎麼樣去配合的而造個別的身心需求甚至是他們手足的需求因為有時候安置不是只有一個人他可能是三個人一起被安置他們手足共同成長的需求去對他們創造一個最適合的安置環境不要讓他們形成這種被剝奪被處罰的感覺這個是很重要的"},{"start":14505.552,"end":14523.233,"text":"當然還有張雅玲委員剛剛特別提到陳培玉委員剛剛特別提到後續的那個家庭總成跟屠獄返家這個在實務上也非常重要因為我們碰到很多狀況是安置很久都回不了家的結果好朋友要回家他又跟我說他不要回家那個家庭對他已經很陌生了"},{"start":14524.094,"end":14538.013,"text":"所以這個後續怎麼做一個配套讓他趕快返家其實在實務上我們也很希望在鵝燒捲髮中可以做一個完整而且全面性的修正那以上就是我們簡單的意見 謝謝好 接下來內政部"},{"start":14551.631,"end":14576.951,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位民間團體的代表還有學者專家以及各位與會先進 大家好內建部警政署就我們在執行兒少的福利跟權益在執行面上我們的困境提出做報告大概提出三點第一個就是兒少自願性離家的預防輔導機制希望能夠有立法做規範"},{"start":14578.172,"end":14600.067,"text":"因為我們統計110年到112年失蹤兒少我們警政的尋獲率將近達百分之百但是重複失蹤的比率將近五成所以顯示目前兒少失蹤的協尋機制運作順暢但是兒少返家之後的後續追蹤輔導"},{"start":14601.448,"end":14615.179,"text":"那這個部分其實本署從110年我們有配合衛福部辦理了一個逆境少年的專案那有透過系統借接就是把本署收集到的失蹤兒少資料"},{"start":14617.701,"end":14645.319,"text":"這個提供給衛福部那衛福部會做 社政機關會做後續的家庭支持服務那希望這個部分能夠有法令的一些規範那第二個就是有關於未滿12歲的兒少偏差行為的預防跟輔導措施是不是也要回到兒權法的相關規範這個部分剛剛月勤委員還有衛福部跟司法院的書面報告都有提及我就不再贅述"},{"start":14645.959,"end":14672.664,"text":"那第三點就是也是我們在執行上在仿視困難或者是刑方不明的兒少希望能夠有法律授權調閱通訊的記錄因為刑方不明的兒少不管他失聯的因素可能跟家庭有相當的關係尤其是家長他可能會因為設有其他刑案招通器或者是種種原因"},{"start":14673.544,"end":14691.381,"text":"他的經濟狀況不穩定甚至有時候是規避這個查法那所以我們雖然說在108年的修法的時候其實已經有做相當的一些規範就是我們警察會做後續的一些處理跟巡查如果"},{"start":14692.201,"end":14708.596,"text":"設有犯罪嫌疑的話我們就會報請檢查機關來介入處理但是實務上還是會有一些家長刻意的去隱匿這些訊息所以我們希望是不是能夠法律授權經由現代科技"},{"start":14709.556,"end":14711.298,"text":"來加速尋求的進度"},{"start":14739.356,"end":14765.508,"text":"報告完畢做以下結論依據立法院職權刑事法規定委員會應提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者公聽會報告作為審查特定議題之參考我們會把各位的寶貴意見及書面資料匯編成冊分送"},{"start":14766.741,"end":14778.272,"text":"給本院的全體委員以及與會的政府機關代表學者專家參閱今天非常感謝各位的出席並提供寶貴意見本次公聽會到此結束散會感謝大家謝謝"},{"start":14791.963,"end":14792.323,"text":"好好好"},{"start":14821.013,"end":14822.594,"text":"這張照片是從1999年開始拍攝的"},{"start":14852.677,"end":14855.4,"text":"你要不要買?我們先不寫我們先不寫我們先不寫我們先不寫"},{"start":14871.775,"end":14875.559,"text":"這張圖是在2013年,是在2013年,是在2013年,是在2013年,是在2013年,是在2013年,"},{"start":14891.557,"end":14892.017,"text":"感谢观看"}]}},{"id":"158792","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158792","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae4e7ef8c1cbf448243cf44f197405bc764cba45b1be1c76fe3eb8c7174a20b36283ac1051a9c2f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"10:37:11 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前年 對 前年 地補進來之後我們辦公室發現了這個問題我們不斷的跟衛福部還有教育部還有法務部溝通我們希望相關資料庫是可以勾結的那總算 總算走了一年多他目前是可以勾結 但還是有漏洞"},{"start":90.103,"end":114.264,"text":"我們舉最近發生在台中少棒隊教練性侵兒童的案例我想要先提醒大家目前衛福部49條有一個公告系統在幼兒園的部分有幼照法的公教系統勾基系統然後在教育部有不失人教育人員的系統但這三個系統目前是沒有勾基的所以他的流竄是可以想像那我們促成他勾基之後我們發現還有一個漏洞"},{"start":114.764,"end":133.602,"text":"台中市少棒隊教練性侵兒童屏東籃球教練猥褻女童的不幸案件都是在學校端出現的那甚至可能是因為他用志工的名義出現在學校所以學校認為他沒有問題他就讓他進來了或者是他進來的那一年學校後續沒有在每年的勾擊相關的資料所以很多的案件就沒有出現"},{"start":134.222,"end":157.155,"text":"所以我剛剛只是舉了兩個大家看到上新聞的案例但是大家可以想像現場有非常多的案例是不適任的人員他會用各式各樣莫名其妙的身份進入跟孩子們共同工作的場域包含我們過去在追究非常多單向協會在運動現場的事情他甚至是用志工的名義進去繼續指導小孩那我們要說要根本解決這個問題非常謝謝"},{"start":159.036,"end":177.221,"text":"之前人本教育基金會有跟我們討論關於兒童工作證的事情那這當然有國外的相關法規範可以參考但是我當然知道落到台灣之後我們有台灣社會的民情跟配套必須要認真的討論所以在過去幾次的總質詢當中我也刻意的跟院長提出來希望透過院長的高度讓相關部會可以進行討論"},{"start":179.262,"end":192.268,"text":"那因為目前都還是沒有看到相關進度甚至我猜想在未來耳上法修法的時候可能也還不會想要考慮到這件事情因為我知道你們會認為相關配套或者是會影響到大人的工作權益但我就問"},{"start":193.632,"end":210.233,"text":"那大人的工作權益重要難道小孩的權益不重要嗎所以這件事情我要再次強烈的主張也要拜託所有委員一起幫忙我們如何把兒童工作證放入未來兒少法修法當中那接下來在現行的兒少法現行條文第26之一第81 第81之一"},{"start":212.296,"end":236.332,"text":"我現在要繼續講漏洞有居家式托育兒少福利機構課後照顧服務班這三種兒少工作人員的消極資格有做出限制可是這三種人員的標準是不一致的大家去打開那個表格你會很好奇例如說犯過毒品危害防治條例的人犯過家暴罪的人不能從事居家托育可是可以從事兒少福利機構課後照顧班"},{"start":237.873,"end":253.465,"text":"有沒有怪怪的我個人身為兩個小孩的媽媽我覺得怪怪的還有不是只有這個如果查證屬實他有性侵害性騷擾的行為可是還沒有到判決有罪那他不能從事兒少福利機構課後照顧班可是他可以做居家托育聽起來有沒有更怪"},{"start":255.746,"end":272.664,"text":"好這些標準不一致的地方我們都認為非常的奇怪我當然知道還是要保障相關工作人員的工作權益可是我要講放任這些大人繼續在兒童出現兒少出現的現場跟相關機構真的有很大的意義我認為後續修法我們要認真討論這一題"},{"start":274.406,"end":296.897,"text":"接下来家外安置跟原生家庭重整的部分也是我们从这个角度看到当原生家庭出现状况小孩要赶快进行家外安置可是在联合国儿童权利公约一再的强调要协助原生家庭重整让小孩可以返回原生家庭可是我们看到目前最大的困境就是安置照顾家庭重整返家处育计划这三个环节彼此的环环相扣"},{"start":297.737,"end":317.431,"text":"彼此社工的合作或者是彼此機構之間的合作可能出現了一些漏洞導致會有將近一成的小孩會再被通報甚至回到原生家庭發生虐待的案件監察院也做出相關的調查跟提醒那簡單的說後續我認為兒少保護是專精於兒少可是我們在催加的部分是服務所有年齡的家庭"},{"start":317.831,"end":334.41,"text":"所以如何在兒少法這一次修法當中把兒少安置的專業跟人力跟風險評估在相對不足的情況下如何拜託衛福部協同教育部還有相關單位我們一起為孩子在這一塊原生家庭跟家外安置的部分在做努力接下來要講安置機構跟校園性暴力我想"},{"start":335.131,"end":361.173,"text":"昨天才公布了國家人權委員會才公布了校園跟安置機構兒少性侵系統系統性訪查案的專案報告光是2023年校園補習班安置機構的兒少性侵超過170件我們難以想像這些孩子們他們如何自己度過漫漫長夜整個系統到底還可以還缺了什麼可以協助更多的孩子那孩子如何不要處於被機構背叛的狀態我相信"},{"start":361.893,"end":384.776,"text":"這些孩子都不會只是個案如果我們沒有看見這些個案背後整個通案性的系統性因素我們很難想像還有更多孩子在未來會是被受害的接下來收出養的問題那有非常多專家選擇談到收出養我就不再多說可是在收出養目前在凱凱案之後我們是決定下放到地方政府的社福中心可是我真的想要幫社福中心的社工挨好一下"},{"start":385.837,"end":402.476,"text":"社福中心的社工老師已經在搖頭了對不對社福中心的社工要如何承擔這麼多相關的業務或者是家庭暴力防治中心那這一次我們想像他們也許會做得更好但是大家不要忘記了有些地方政府的財政效率不佳行政能力不佳那甚至是社工流動率很高"},{"start":403.317,"end":421.629,"text":"他們社福中心還要身兼加爆防治業務他們人力不足流動率很高常常找不到社工還有有也不見得他們有足夠的收出養的專業跟資能可以協助相關的案例那我想後續很多問題我們如何做到治標又治本收出養這個事情我知道還有很多事情要討論最後一個"},{"start":423.69,"end":430.415,"text":"最近有很多人開記者會在講的 就是民法1085家長懲罰權的修法為了配合這個修法呢 而上法49條也要跟著調整關於體罰不當管教的定義這個消息出來之後 非常多家長打電話到我們辦公室抗議喔他們認為家長懲罰權被拿掉 沒有辦法教小孩"},{"start":443.985,"end":464.811,"text":"那這件事情我其實一直從兩年前就開始告訴教育部中生教育司裡面有一個家庭教育中心而家庭教育中心必須要更積極的承擔站在國家政府的立場更多的努力去協助家長可是回到衛福部的而上法49條或是相關的後續配套我都認為其實還是有非常多角色可以一起努力最後一個所有我這些談的議題"},{"start":465.811,"end":491.367,"text":"我們在面對的都是一個一個受傷的孩子而在整個兒上法的系統當中有沒有人想到這些受傷的孩子他們所需要的心理支持跟相關的心理健康資源大家不要覺得學輔法修完就沒事了學輔法他所照顧的是學校裡面的案例或是從學校裡面PASS出來叫地方學輔資中心的案例但是在整個催加系統或是所有的從社政單位所想像出來這些個案或是相關他的家庭或是兄弟姊妹"},{"start":491.767,"end":499.893,"text":"孩子們所需要的心理健康支援我也希望在後續兒小法修法的過程當中可以被看見還有他們的專業可以被討論 以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158795","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158795","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae4e7ef8c1cbf448ecfb645f116e5686764cba45b1be1c76772577de59f566498e7165f4ad3413885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"11:46:33 - 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就是很多跟心理健康有關的這個教育方面我覺得教育部不是只有學生輔導法就是通過修法通過在前端你們可以在心理健康的面向給孩子更多的課程跟支持特別是霸凌的議題我覺得是要從教育做起的所以教育部在這個部分今天也沒有看到在這個部分有太多的琢磨我認為應該是要做那從前端的你的心理健康做好後面的自殺防治"},{"start":399.85,"end":428.793,"text":"他的案例個案數自然會下降這個部分也應該要做然後大家一直在呼籲的兒少死亡的回溯分析基本上這部分我已經提了修法意見了我非常的贊成唯有了解事件的原因找到真正的原因你才可以提出好的解決的方法所以民間大家的呼籲跟訴求我想這個部分今天衛福部應該都聽見了這個部分也是非常的重要"},{"start":429.315,"end":438.74,"text":"那最後是有關於兒少他打工環境的安全問題最近麥當勞事件其實再一次讓大家看到了我想這個台少盟也一直在倡議"},{"start":439.796,"end":465.212,"text":"這一些青少年他的工作環境的安全的問題那我覺得勞動部其實過去在這個部分的琢磨還是太少雖然你們有時候會提說暑假到了而少打工安全但是我覺得那一些其實是不夠的而且是比較表淺的就是從這次麥當勞事件你可以看到的確在16到18歲當中他們在工作過程如果遭遇到職場上面的這種權勢的壓迫性騷性侵那他"},{"start":469.355,"end":492.589,"text":"的整個因應的處理方式他的求助管道這些機制我覺得我們對兒少做的其實是遠遠不足那如果在這一次的相對應式的修法當中在兒少全法基本加工當中在這一些我們通通都可以把它納件完那我相信這個涵蓋的面向才會是最完整的那最後我還是要再次謝謝今天出席的兒少的單位跟專家學者我想打造一個兒少一個更友善"},{"start":496.67,"end":510.399,"text":"更健康更安全的環境這是一個持續性的工作那我也呼籲我們的政府要有與時俱進的概念而不是停留在20年前而是看一看現在兒少他在經歷什麼樣的環境跟變化那最新的挑戰是什麼我覺得我們要有能力這個公部門跟民間一起合作我們來因應這些挑戰然後為兒少繼續努力謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝我們的王玉敏委員"}]}},{"id":"158796","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158796","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae4e7ef8c1cbf44866c0881ef3b18d5d764cba45b1be1c763fa38bf2b7bb5bcd34c2034a5d6bfafb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:55:22 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謝謝月群委員 還有說這個社福界的先進 還有包含我們衛福部教育部 我們這個行政單位那非常謝謝月群委員今天召開這個公聽會 那其實在很快 去年 你要算去年六月了 去年六月底的時候包含這個月群委員 還有我跟楚英委員 要召開一個公聽會"},{"start":29.142,"end":48.585,"text":"那時候是特別是針對這個兒少全法的第69條的這個修法的建議那與會有一些先進當時候有來參加這個公聽會那時候是有達成一些共識就是說透過修法或是行政指導的這個方式對這個兒少全法的第69條第一項第一款的兒虐的部分"},{"start":49.105,"end":76.13,"text":"制定相關的這個歷史的框架還有例外的條款符合公共利益但是也要兼顧這個受害者這個潛在受害者的知情權那時候是六月底的事情然後當然後來這個衛福部他有做出一些指引但是呢陸陸續續還是發生了相關的一些事情這個媒體要怎麼去報這個分寸跟這個界限還是很難拿捏"},{"start":77.31,"end":102.996,"text":"那大家都知道說這個第69條本來是要保害這個要保護這個兒少的隱私那避免這個二次的傷害那大家都提到就是說這個這個幼兒園這個是台北市的是培諾米達幼兒園那現在這個案子大家都知道了這個園長的兒子毛俊生涉及的猥褻性侵等等那這個時候這個案子在剛開始的時候這個媒體"},{"start":104.276,"end":129.176,"text":"都知道 然後家長也去澄清 不管是跟門醫代表或是跟媒體來做澄清但是媒體那時候就不敢報 為什麼 因為他怕說受到這個兒少全法第69條的裁罰那但是呢 他其實69條他也說得很清楚 如果涉及到重大的公共利益經過行政機關的審議核可 媒體也不會受罰"},{"start":130.517,"end":144.242,"text":"但是這樣子講好像是說你69條有一個例外的規定但是變成這個地方政府或是說媒體他們也有很多的不確定的因素在所以就變成說在報的時候"},{"start":145.982,"end":164.361,"text":"還是不知道怎麼去做會比較好我舉一個最近的一個例子好了這是在這個去年的這個12月在台中的一個國小的棒球棒球隊一個終點的教練涉及性侵跟猥褻男童受害者至少有31個人那這個教練"},{"start":165.061,"end":176.595,"text":"之前他就有前科那學校把關那是另外一層那另外一層就是說這個台中市的這個社會局呢要求媒體不能寫出教練的姓氏"},{"start":179.425,"end":199.06,"text":"為什麼不能寫出這個教練的姓氏因為社會局認為這個國小還有這個棒球教練的圈子很小然後又說這個教練的姓氏比較特別如果你把這個教練的名字把它講出來就可以推測到哪些學生受到遭殃了"},{"start":200.241,"end":214.411,"text":"那這個又回到之前的一個這個有關幼兒園這個事情這個是這個台中市社會局跟媒體講說你不要報那不要報出這個教練的這個姓氏不能寫出來 那所以"},{"start":215.311,"end":238.137,"text":"這個就變成說那衛福部當初雖然是有做出個指引那就回到說那到底這個指引的這個界限在哪裡那我們明明是要保護這個受害者那但是呢地方政府認為說那你如果把這個教練信是寫出來的話那大家就知道說哪一些人是可能是潛在的一個受害者但是你如果不報出來的話那是不是有可能有更多的這一個受害者"},{"start":239.438,"end":251.958,"text":"所以我是覺得說第69條真的是要好好的去思考一下我們是最大的利益都是保障這一個受害者根據這一個衛福部的執意"},{"start":253.82,"end":279.146,"text":"他還寫得很清楚 我看我們這個保護室的司長也講了他說按照這個台北市幼兒園的這個例子這個照理是不得揭露但是要協助媒體在報導兒少跟性暴力事件時能夠兼顧社會公義保護被害人的隱私然後避免對被害人還有家庭造成惡毒的傷害然後他可以寫唯獨不可以揭露"},{"start":280.486,"end":291.093,"text":"僅限於被害人的相關資料避免惡毒傷害那如果是這樣子的話那為什麼台中市的這個案子台中的這個社會局會要求這個媒體不要寫"},{"start":292.57,"end":309.522,"text":"所以這個界限在哪裡我是覺得說後來不要變成說是中央跟地方政府大家在推來推去地方就說你這個中央的規定的不夠明確然後中央就說有啊我有這些指引我這些指引都已經說得很清楚你們在上個月的時候你們還召開這個會議好像還指出說這個"},{"start":314.685,"end":329.951,"text":"有哪一些額外的事件那媒體要怎麼寫那不然有可能會觸發那所以說你們也是有指出一些指引出來但是我是覺得說在目前為止這個指引還不是還不是弄得很清楚所以包含這個"},{"start":330.911,"end":348.326,"text":"我記得瑞群文也是有在做修法我覺得這是第一個大家還要是針對這69條的部分我覺得大家還是要再努力這個怎麼樣讓它這個媒體能夠報導出來但是能夠保障受害人我覺得這部分"},{"start":349.547,"end":366.879,"text":"衛福部還是要再加強那第二個我要談就是說這個國家安全委員會在昨天有公布了這個第一份校園級安置機構兒少性親愛系統性的這個訪查報告那其實看了這一個報告我沒有完全看完但是我根據媒體所揭露的就是說"},{"start":368.214,"end":376.921,"text":"在2023年的這個性侵害的通報案件當中未滿18歲的被害人佔了54.765155個人這個數字其實其實蠻令人震驚也讓人心痛的然後他也訪查了74個案子"},{"start":386.889,"end":404.502,"text":"三分之二是性侵害的被害人三分之一是重要他人然後在訪談的這個對象裡面他說在18歲前在校園或是安置機構當中遭受性侵害者發生在被害人的6歲到12歲之間的比例是最高"},{"start":405.683,"end":420.276,"text":"然後呢 這個受害的地點呢 這一個校外私人空間最多 那其實是校內然後呢 包含了這個是對生的性侵害及權力不對等和權力濫用那也有生對生的性侵害"},{"start":421.357,"end":437.231,"text":"然後呢這個除了這個之外罷隨的這個霸淫的行為也伴隨這個性侵害那如果教室如果敏感度不夠的話沒有辦法其實發現會加劇被害人被排擠的一個狀況那我相信說這個國家人權委員會的這個報告"},{"start":440.294,"end":461.687,"text":"也是可以作為我們未來在修這個兒少法的一個相關的一個參考跟建議所以說現在我們已經有在這個研修要來修改這個兒少權法兒少性剝削的這個防治條例還有建置性影像的處理中心等等那但是呢這個如果按照這個人權會的報告來講的話這一個"},{"start":466.55,"end":488.283,"text":"兒少人權受侵害的情況依舊相當的嚴重學校與安置機構性侵害的案件也需要更多的關懷我們要持續來支持兒少要勇於發聲重視兒少的表意權我們也希望說行政部門或是學校機構針對問題能夠找到具體可行的解決方法"},{"start":493.286,"end":519.017,"text":"那幫助校園機構有效從預防辨認通報處理兒少的性侵案那是解決一些結構性的一些問題然後這個人權會還有一個九項的政策建議我就不再追溯那這個希望我們相關單位包含這一個衛福部教育部能夠做一個參考再次謝謝就請我還有所謂的所有與會的這些社福界的先進謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":521.52,"end":522.206,"text":"好,謝謝,我們離婚成為了"}]}},{"id":"158793","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158793","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae4e7ef8c1cbf448e412b01c87d07ab3764cba45b1be1c76772577de59f566490f6f7234e961ca575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:13:36 - 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Science還有像是我們做了一些科普的活動你有沒有去收集兒童參加過之後的意見回饋呢那就有部會告訴我說有"},{"start":68.376,"end":78.147,"text":"我有然後非常開心的跟我分享了那我發現裡面是30題的問卷每一題都涉及非常高深的科學名稱"},{"start":80.27,"end":104.045,"text":"那我想我就說然後他們就說也有人回答我想我如果我們針對的一個活動是12歲以下跟你去講很多非常艱深的科技名詞的時候科學名詞的時候你收集來的意見會是真實如實的兒童意見嗎好所以我想在大多數我們過去不管是地方或者是中央政府我們做的很多意見回饋都是非常制式的線上問卷調查"},{"start":105.487,"end":126.347,"text":"我們並沒有針對不同的年紀去設計適合他的問卷適合他的調查方式以及適合他訴說的一個環境不管是過去的學生輔導法還是在做心理諮商的時候這個環境可能對他來說非常的有壓迫感不過也很高興教育部接下來會投入相關的預算去改善這個空間的部分"},{"start":127.308,"end":146.894,"text":"我也想要回应到前面刚刚立新也有讲到儿少友善司法这件事情就是说在我们的儿少权法第五条去规定是说处理儿童及少年相关事物时应以儿童及少年之最佳利益为优先考量并依其心智成熟程度来权衡其意见"},{"start":147.854,"end":171.016,"text":"可是第18條又規定了收出養如果父母意見不一致的時候是由法官依最佳利益來認可跟決定那如果說在法庭這個環境大人可能在表述自己意見都非常困難的時候孩子要如何去表達自己的想法呢那他要如何去確認怎麼樣是符合兒少的最佳利益呢"},{"start":172.297,"end":195.651,"text":"那這份提案我也非常高興這個司法院其實在去年更新的CRC第二次結論性意見辦理情形其實有回覆就是針對這第19號一般性意見回應說他們現在其實也在改善法庭中支持兒童表現的軟硬挺設施那在11月初的時候我也跟泰國的檢察官來討論就是有關於我們"},{"start":196.711,"end":208.244,"text":"現在這個檢查檢調系統裡面的一些兒少友善司法我想我知道他有來跟我們的檢調系統這邊做一些簡報所以我也希望未來我們可以看到更友善的一個環境那"},{"start":209.628,"end":228.429,"text":"再來其實我還有一個非常重要的質詢就是在今年的時候我在院會要求我們的卓院長應該要有兒少預算整合平台因為過去我們都是採事後統計的錢散落在各個部會裡面其實我們根本沒有人知道他有沒有根據預算"},{"start":230.771,"end":248.567,"text":"我們根本不知道有多少預算事前完全不知道也不知道我們要有多少真正的優待我們的兒少那也導致了我們的兒少GDP只佔國家的2%跟其他OECD相比來說都是6%來所以這相比來說是非常非常的缺乏"},{"start":249.568,"end":278.698,"text":"而且我在細細的研究發現裡面大部分都是發這個補助跟津貼其實用在兒童身心發展相關的預算是非常非常的少所以我也有要求就是卓院長就是要有這個兒校預算整合平台那這個衛福部也他也折騰了衛福部來做規劃那其實我未來也會持續的來去監督我相信我們要更科學的預算科學的方式去檢視我們的預算我們才能夠確實的去掌握我們的兒校有沒有"},{"start":279.378,"end":305.968,"text":"真的使用到这些预算那最后呢我想讲一下就是说其实大家都非常关注这个自杀的议题那我自己其实也从两年前吧三年前已经是三年前了2022国际审查的时候其实就有讲到国际学者也非常关注这个议题因为我们的自杀率实在是真的有点高那他们其实里面讲的一个就是休憩我们孩子的学业压力非常大各种各面向人际的关系的压力也非常大"},{"start":306.388,"end":324.155,"text":"但是他們缺乏休憩的機會跟時間所以呢在我們的兒少公會裡面其實也有講到兒童有休憩的權利但是在我們現在其實在中央的法規裡面我們公園是沒有主管機關的也沒有國家級的研究來去了解我們兒童的休憩的現況"},{"start":325.035,"end":352.017,"text":"是場地不足時間不足還是怎麼樣子的原因我們是一無所知那既然沒有分析沒有理解就不會知道要投入多少的資源也就不能夠有更有效率的改善作為那現在我也非常高興看到就是說院長有承諾會由教育部來做這個國家級的研究運動部也即將成立那我也有要求你們要去針對於青少不管是運動或是休憩的部分我們都要去有足夠的了解因為大家都說我投入了很多SH"},{"start":353.879,"end":375.252,"text":"這個150嘛齁 我們都有鼓勵小孩子但是 鼓勵小孩子運動 但是小孩子告訴我們的是對啊 就是叫我跑操場跟跳跳繩我想大家都非常清楚嘛他的運動就是這兩個 可是小朋友說想要打籃球 然後就會有人說欸 不行喔 我們主要是要完成跳跳繩跟跑操場 那我覺得這就是一個非常大的"},{"start":376.573,"end":391.571,"text":"現實執行的問題那我們也希望透過相關的研究我們可以真實的如實的去反應孩子的需要然後回應孩子的需要那就如同我一開始經理法院講的一個很重要的關鍵就是親子的聲音入國會那未來也希望跟我們的部會跟我們的團體一起來努力謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158791","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158791","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae4e7ef8c1cbf44845fa4c312a9a6711764cba45b1be1c766eaac7751b4f3a60e459cee5de9a21f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:44:33 - 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大家看這張照片 這個不是劇照 這個不是斯卡羅的 我們文化部拍的劇照這個是日本隨軍團的攝照師 為了要回去領他們的戰功而隨軍拍攝下來的照片"},{"start":124.365,"end":135.69,"text":"這個部分已經由我們的中研院的老師把它整理出非常多的歷史的照片這是一個泰雅族人 也是我的祖先"},{"start":140.765,"end":152.834,"text":"在佳陽部落因為要捍衛我們的土地而被日本的軍人用一把非常鋒利的武士刀現場砍斷了我們的頭"},{"start":156.57,"end":180.403,"text":"這個難道不是轉型正義而今天我們要談的不易已止我很遺憾我的版本呢也在這個大院的時候被否決掉但是我今天依然提了修正動議我要來談的就是什麼為了反省台灣歷史不同時期統治者為了鞏固"},{"start":181.568,"end":200.141,"text":"所謂對人權或族群的侵害事件然後要彰顯它發生的歷史價值以及轉型正義的意義促進多元保存文化要制定這個條例這個條例不僅僅是人權它還有土地權"},{"start":201.84,"end":229.491,"text":"待會每一條在談到的時候尤其所謂的不義遺址怎麼可以又切割原住民族怎麼又可以切割台灣的主人原住民族的土地被這些日本政權不義所掠奪的土地呢我感到不可思議原來你們的轉型正義的價值人權的價值只停留在中華民國啊"},{"start":231.055,"end":244.586,"text":"而民進黨政府 小英總統跟原住民族道歉 跟原住民族要和解但是你們在法律案上面卻不支持原住民族提的時間點這叫什麼正義 這叫什麼不義以止"},{"start":251.011,"end":255.836,"text":"所以今天我們站在這裡在審這個條例的時候審法案的時候請大家不要切割原住民族的人權、土地正義以及我們的轉型正義謝謝大家我的修正綜藝的版本應該也已經引用到大家的手上了待會竹條的時候我還會再繼續發言"},{"start":273.135,"end":283.913,"text":"如果大家有興趣媒體們有興趣可以看一下我今天帶來的兩本書一本在侯孟凱委員的手上一本在我的手上這裡面就是血跡斑斑的歷史以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158789","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158789","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae4e7ef8c1cbf448c1778cff27429c06aed215d4fccbab686eaac7751b4f3a6080161a9ac653e9315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"09:22:57 - 09:27:02","影片長度":"00:04:05","會議時間":"2025-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。(二)委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。(三)委員鄭天財Sra 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各位委員 部長 還有文化部的所有的官員"},{"start":24.226,"end":52.089,"text":"我本來沒有想要提案說明本來想說早一點審查 早一點完成但是既然前面兩位包括召委包括剛才提案說明的委員特別特別特別的強調第一個說原住民族在台灣這個時在這個國土上之前的不義遺址都不是不義遺址"},{"start":53.847,"end":81.3,"text":"說是文化資產保存法就可以去仔細看文化資產保存法怎麼會是文化資產呢不義遺址就是不義遺址啊第二怎麼會說只有中華民國之後啊中華民國之前台灣的原住民在台灣的原住民族在這塊土地上"},{"start":82.853,"end":86.577,"text":"所受到任何一個統治者的侵害這不是侵害嗎這不是不義遺址嗎還有切割怎麼會這樣子切割非常非常的難以接受"},{"start":111.691,"end":130.758,"text":"這樣還能審嗎我本來希望很快的審查通過有這麼困難嗎把清朝時候的不義遺址列入進去把日據時代的不義遺址就怎麼樣了嗎就知愛難惜了嗎就要復義了嗎莫名其妙把台灣的原住民族放在哪裡"},{"start":143.854,"end":145.716,"text":"我們的痛你們可以知道嗎從斯卡羅事件台灣的原住民族跟美國人打仗接下來牡丹社事件台灣的原住民族為了保護台灣跟日本人打仗這個都不叫轉型正義"},{"start":173.471,"end":200.308,"text":"這些都不叫不義遺址一開始為什麼要起這個衝突啊去年的事情每個人 每個委員 諮詢有每個委員的諮詢發言的潛力我尊重但是今天是開始審查條文了我們可以到"},{"start":203.254,"end":215.12,"text":"威權統治還是極權統治還是要用什麼我們可以討論嘛怎麼會一開始就去責怪我們的條文呢我的條文也是去年就提了不是今年提的所以我希望大家互相尊重援助民族在這塊土地上"},{"start":232.383,"end":233.045,"text":"保護台灣從來都是第一個 以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158787","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158787","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae4e7ef8c1cbf448487b385b85defcb6aed215d4fccbab686eaac7751b4f3a60cb86eaca5078d11d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"09:14:23 - 09:18:02","影片長度":"00:03:39","會議時間":"2025-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。(二)委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。(三)委員鄭天財Sra 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使用者 管理人都应该要提报抢修计划转型正义的目的是一个社会由威权过渡到民主时期后要求国家对大规模侵害人权的事件进行平复和反省而不一致就是国家威权侵害人权的地点"},{"start":47.415,"end":65.577,"text":"那這些地方正面臨破壞甚至永遠無法修復的困境所以我們急需要一個母法作為比較細緻的法源依據那文化部才能夠依據這樣子的一個母法進行對這些遺址的妥善保存"},{"start":66.218,"end":91.786,"text":"沒有記憶就沒有真相也不會有復原和爭議我呼籲我們所有的跨黨派委員不要再企圖操弄威權時期的定義淡化自己的不義那當然我想我們本條例很多人關心原住民族在國民黨威權統治時期受侵害的歷史場景那其他時期的歷史爭議場景原住民在國民黨威權統治時期他當然"},{"start":94.867,"end":117.788,"text":"一定能夠在這個法當中保存至於其他時期的歷史正義長治已經有文資法底下的相關法規可以保護根本條例並不衝突所以我也要再重申轉型正義不分黨派呼籲朝野一起推動立法保存不移植那我這邊準備了一個我今年到"},{"start":118.899,"end":122.523,"text":"那我給大家很簡單的看一下幾秒鐘的影像可以看到這個館他們花多少心力做轉型正義"},{"start":145.578,"end":169.427,"text":"這牆上都是受難者的照片下面則是他的一個重要的傷害事件的圖片再往下 請幫忙放一下才有幾張照片這是他入場的地方 這樣各位可以看到他的規模還有其他照片嗎?"},{"start":170.96,"end":194.171,"text":"那另外我想在那裡你可以看到就是每位受難者我們只要按一個鍵那他的後代或者是我們其他人都能夠知道當事人的生平故事因為對方不是只是一個受害者他是有活生生有血有肉的人那我用這個影像是要讓大家知道其實智利跟我們一樣他是新興民主國家"},{"start":194.791,"end":215.44,"text":"發生這些事情的有些時間甚至比台灣還晚那他的GDP也不如台灣可是當這樣一個國家都花這麼大的規模做轉型正義的話那我們真的需要就是這樣的一個母法能夠讓我們更多的心力放在不移植的保存也能夠讓記憶讓下一代子孫都能知道以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158788","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158788","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/ae4e7ef8c1cbf4481329bc765adc4ba6aed215d4fccbab686eaac7751b4f3a607766c67842c2092a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"09:19:50 - 09:22:39","影片長度":"00:02:49","會議時間":"2025-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。(二)委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。(三)委員鄭天財Sra 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各位同仁轉型正義不是特定政黨的議題積極面對國家人權曾經造成的重大傷害是跨黨派立委都應該承擔的責任也是面對歷史與民主最基本的尊重"},{"start":23.144,"end":44.11,"text":"去年10月30號我們針對不以一指保存條例展開立法詢答但是國民黨的委員卻間連發言宣稱不以一指的認定不該僅限於1945年到1992年間的威權統治時期應往前追溯到清帝國日本等政權的統治台灣歷經"},{"start":47.511,"end":65.039,"text":"連續的殖民這是歷史的事實殖民創傷必須被修復這也是被肯定的但是轉型正義處理的並不是殖民問題而是國家的人權侵害與暴力清帝國是我們的國家嗎日本是我們的國家嗎"},{"start":66.059,"end":69.903,"text":"中華民國才是至今統治這塊土地的政權國家的不法與暴力當然要針對中華民國的威權統治做檢討檢討國家暴力和檢討過去的殖民政權是兩回事必須被分開處理"},{"start":84.437,"end":110.415,"text":"再者每一個時期有每一個時期的獨特性不同形式暴力的形式的檢討與療癒的方式各不相同如大雜匯般不明就裡的將各時期的人權侵害一併納入不以一止保存條例不但對歷史極度不負責任而且破壞轉型正義工作的推進不利於對至今統治台灣的中華民國國家暴力作出檢討"},{"start":111.676,"end":126.229,"text":"今天我們有機會審查不易移植保存條例背後是長年的倡議研究與論述跟很多行政工作的累積建立在這樣深厚的基礎上才能夠負責任地提出這部法"},{"start":126.909,"end":144.788,"text":"至於部分委員提到的日本親帝國對人權的迫害一方面本質上與中華民國的國家不法不同另一方面更應當經過研究與論述的累積而不是活輪吞找不分青紅皂白的就要全部塞進不以一止保存條例當中"},{"start":146.209,"end":159.135,"text":"最後還是請國民黨同仁正視中華民國的歷史錯誤而不是到現在還在跟其他的殖民者比爛企圖用其他殖民者的暴行沖淡中華民國的暴行以上"}]}},{"id":"16461","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16461","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc5e814c1e1875e51d9b5fa2f296a93534529fa0cca45d562793913e0bd958c9335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會第27次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案關於法務部及所屬主管收支部分。\n二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「法務部矯正機關作業基金」收支部分。\n三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管「毒品防制基金」收支部分。\n四、繼續審查法務部函送財團法人臺灣更生保護會、財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪被害人保護協會114年度預算書案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-01-09","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-01-09T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-01-09T16:59:00+08:00","duration":30541,"影片長度":"08:29:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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台灣新北地方檢查署8億0136萬7千元第113項 台灣桃園地方檢查署10億6千326萬6千元第114項 台灣新竹地方檢查署3億7千011萬8千元"},{"start":2740.259,"end":2769.671,"text":"第一百十五項台灣苗栗地方檢查署二億一千二百八十四萬九千元第一百十六項台灣台中地方檢查署十二億九千八百零七萬七千元第一百十七項台灣南投地方檢查署一億七千一百六十五萬四千元第一百十八項台灣彰化地方檢查署四億五千五百十一萬九千元第一百十九項台灣雲林地方檢查署二億四千三百三十一萬五千元第一百二十項台灣嘉義地方檢查署二億九千零八十五萬六千元第一百二十一項"},{"start":2770.411,"end":2796.992,"text":"台湾台南地方检查署6亿7241万7千元第122项台湾桥头地方检查署4亿0204万5千元第123项台湾高雄地方检查署6亿5263万5千元第124项台湾屏东地方检查署3亿6639万5千元第125项台湾台东地方检查署1亿0573万9千元第126项台湾花莲地方检查署1亿3726万元"},{"start":2799.073,"end":2825.789,"text":"第一百二十七項台灣宜蘭地方檢查署一億六千四百八十七萬三千元第一百二十八項台灣金龍地方檢查署一億三千七百三十六萬七千元第一百二十九項台灣澎湖地方檢查署四千四百九十六萬四千元第一百三十項福建金門地方檢查署三千一百五十九萬九千元第一百三十一項福建連江地方檢查署五百八十三萬一千元第一百三十二項調查局七十六萬二千元"},{"start":2827.386,"end":2846.804,"text":"第三款 規費收入 第八十一項 房屋部二百二十九萬元 第八十二項 司法官學院一千元 第八十三項 矯正署級所屬十七萬九千元 第八十四項 行政執行署級所屬二萬元 第八十五項 最高檢查署三千元 第八十六項 台灣高等檢查署 高雄檢查分數無劣數"},{"start":2847.825,"end":2873.118,"text":"第87項 台灣台北地方檢查署10萬5千元第88項 台灣士林地方檢查署2千元第89項 台灣新北地方檢查署3萬4千元第90項 台灣桃園地方檢查署2萬元第91項 台灣新竹地方檢查署5千元第92項 台灣苗栗地方檢查署5千元第93項 台灣台中地方檢查署3萬5千元第94項 台灣南投地方檢查署1千元"},{"start":2873.558,"end":2882.46,"text":"第95項 台灣彰化地方檢查署9000元第96項 台灣雲林地方檢查署11000元第97項 台灣嘉義地方檢查署4000元第98項 台灣台南地方檢查署16000元第99項 台灣橋頭地方檢查署24000元第100項 台灣高雄地方檢查署42000元第101項 台灣屏東地方檢查署5000元"},{"start":2896.364,"end":2901.809,"text":"第102項台灣台東地方檢查署4千元第103項台灣花蓮地方檢查署3萬1千元第104項台灣宜蘭地方檢查署3千元第105項台灣基隆地方檢查署4千元"},{"start":2910.202,"end":2930.714,"text":"第106项福建金门地方检查署1000元第107项调查局216万元第4款财产收入第109项法务部33万7000元第110项司法官学院42000元第111项法医研究所283000元第112项廉政署48000元第113项矫政署及所署2228万1000元"},{"start":2935.097,"end":2948.204,"text":"第114項行政執行署及所署773萬元第115項最高檢查署8000元第116項台灣高等檢查署6萬元第117項台灣高等檢查署台中檢查分署72000元第118項台灣高等檢查署台南檢查分署19000元"},{"start":2953.266,"end":2959.977,"text":"第119項台灣高等檢查署高雄檢查分數12萬元第120項台灣高等檢查署花蓮檢查分數53000元第121項台灣高等檢查署智慧財產檢查分數5000元"},{"start":2967.168,"end":2973.534,"text":"第122項 台灣台北地方檢查署395,000元第123項 台灣士林地方檢查署127,000元第124項 台灣新北地方檢查署52,000元第125項 台灣桃園地方檢查署1189,000元第126項 台灣新竹地方檢查署43,000元第127項 台灣苗栗地方檢查署442,000元"},{"start":2991.05,"end":3009.742,"text":"第一百二十八項台灣台中地方檢查署三十二萬九千元第一百二十九項台灣南投地方檢查署十五萬一千元第一百三十項台灣彰化地方檢查署四萬五千元第一百三十一項台灣雲林地方檢查署五萬五千元第一百三十二項台灣嘉義地方檢查署"},{"start":3010.623,"end":3024.313,"text":"十八萬四千元第一百三十三項台灣台南地方檢查署二十三萬七千元第一百三十四項台灣橋頭地方檢查署二萬九千元第一百三十五項台灣高雄地方檢查署十七萬三千元"},{"start":3025.782,"end":3035.026,"text":"第136項 台灣屏東地方檢查署52,000元第137項 台灣台東地方檢查署106,000元第138項 台灣花蓮地方檢查署45,000元第139項 台灣宜蘭地方檢查署143,000元第140項 台灣金融地方檢查署9,000元第141項 台灣澎湖地方檢查署30,000元第142項 福建高等檢查署金門檢查分署4,000元第143項 福建金門地方檢查署39,000元"},{"start":3055.074,"end":3060.037,"text":"第144項 無間連江地方檢查署14000元第145項 調查局169000元第7款 其他收入第108項 保護部673000元第109項 司法官學院6000元第110項 廉政署279000元第111項 廉政署 矯正署及所署12799萬"},{"start":3080.647,"end":3104.816,"text":"一億二千七百九十九萬三千元第一百十二項行政執行署及所署二百八十二萬元第一百十三項最高檢查署三十七萬六千元第一百十四項台灣高等檢查署一百三十七萬七千元第一百十五項台灣高等檢查署台中檢查分署四十三萬五千元第一百十六項台灣高等檢查署台南檢查分署"},{"start":3105.976,"end":3127.854,"text":"二十五万三千元第一百十七项台湾高等检查署高雄检查分数四十万九千元第一百十八项台湾高等检查署花莲检查分数十六万七千元第一百十九项台湾高等检查署智慧财产检查分数九千元第一百二十项台湾台北地方检查署一千一百九十七万七千元第一百二十一项台湾市邻地方检查署"},{"start":3128.715,"end":3143.781,"text":"三百四十九万二千元第122项台湾新北地方检查署一亿四千三百八十六万二千元第123项台湾桃园地方检查署九百七十六万八千元第124项台湾新竹地方检查署一百九十九万六千元"},{"start":3144.841,"end":3156.227,"text":"第125項 台灣苗栗地方檢查署 121萬8千元第126項 台灣台中地方檢查署 8996萬7千元第127項 台灣南投地方檢查署 60萬4千元第128項 台灣彰化地方檢查署 132萬6千元第129項 台灣雲林地方檢查署 338萬8千元第130項 台灣嘉義地方檢查署 46萬元"},{"start":3170.799,"end":3190.376,"text":"第一百三十一項台灣台南地方檢查署二百三十一萬四千元第一百三十二項台灣橋頭地方檢查署六十一萬四千元第一百三十三項台灣高雄地方檢查署一千二百五十五萬四千元第一百三十四項台灣屏東地方檢查署一百五十一萬八千元第一百三十五項"},{"start":3191.437,"end":3217.919,"text":"台湾台东地方检查署83万4千元第136项台湾花莲地方检查署101万2千元第137项台湾宜兰地方检查署60万8千元第138项台湾基隆地方检查署128万元第139项台湾澎湖地方检查署30万5千元第140项福建高等检查署金门检查分数1万7千元第141项福建金门地方检查署20万4千元"},{"start":3218.88,"end":3230.172,"text":"第142項吳建年將地方檢查署無列數第143項調查局81萬元稅出部分第12款法務部主管第一項法務部"},{"start":3231.67,"end":3249.498,"text":"二十八亿一千三百七十七万四千元第二项司法官学院四亿八千九百九十万一千元第三项法医研究所一亿八千五百二十三万九千元第四项廉政署五亿零三百十万一千元第五项缴证署及所属一百六十五亿三千一百三十五万六千元"},{"start":3250.97,"end":3258.937,"text":"第六項行政執行署及所屬19億9309萬1千元第七項最高檢查署1億7614萬8千元第八項台灣高等檢查署20億3107萬9千元第九項台灣高等檢查署台中檢查分署1億6998萬元第十項台灣高等檢查署台南檢查分署1億3196萬4千元"},{"start":3274.071,"end":3301.498,"text":"第十一項台灣高等檢查署高雄檢查分署一億七千九百四十八萬九千元第十二項台灣高等檢查署花蓮檢查分署六千一百六十四萬一千元第十三項台灣高等檢查署智慧財產檢查分署一千八百六十二萬元第十四項台灣台北地方檢查署十八億九千九百八十萬一千元第十五項台灣士林地方檢查署六億二千七百四十九萬五千元第十六項"},{"start":3303.049,"end":3310.728,"text":"台灣新竹地方檢查署 十億九千七百零六萬六千元第十七項台灣桃園地方檢查署"},{"start":3312.421,"end":3340.252,"text":"九亿二千九百二十七万四千元第十八项台湾新竹地方检查署四亿零九百九十八万八千元第十九项台湾苗栗地方检查署二亿八千七百零九万二千元第二十项台湾台中地方检查署二十一亿九千五百二十五万九千元第二十一项台湾南投地方检查署二亿五千二百八十二万九千元第二十二项台湾彰化地方检查署七亿八千零三十二万九千元第二十三项台湾园林地方检查署"},{"start":3340.752,"end":3367.356,"text":"二億九千二百三十四萬五千元第二十四項台灣嘉義地方檢查署三億八千二百五十八萬六千元第二十五項台灣台南地方檢查署七億四千八百二十五萬五千元第二十六項台灣橋頭地方檢查署四億九千四百二十萬八千元第二十七項台灣高雄地方檢查署九億五千二百零八萬三千元第二十八項台灣屏東地方檢查署三億九千六百七十九萬三千元"},{"start":3369.693,"end":3399.393,"text":"第二十九项台湾台东地方检查署一亿八千一百零一万二千元。第三十项台湾花莲地方检查署二亿五千三百九十六万元。第三十一项台湾宜兰地方检查署二亿四千零十六万二千元。第三十二项台湾基隆地方检查署二亿五千八百万九千元。第三十三项台湾同湖地方检查署一亿零四百七十七万元。第三十四项福建高等检查署进门检查分数二千四百五十四万七千元。"},{"start":3400.193,"end":3428.46,"text":"第三十五項福建金門地方檢查署六千八百零四萬三千元第三十六項福建連江地方檢查署二千四百五十六萬九千元第三十七項調查局七十三萬三千六百七十四萬六千元第二案保護部主管一百十四年度保護部矯正機關作業基金業務計劃請參閱預算書業務收支業務總收入十一億五千二百五十八萬一千元業務總支出"},{"start":3430.279,"end":3446.789,"text":"十二億六千一百五十四萬四千元本期短處一億零八百九十六萬三千元結繳公庫金額及轉投資計劃均無劣數固定資產建設改良擴充六百八十六萬六千元國庫增波基金額無劣數"},{"start":3448.203,"end":3471.145,"text":"第三案港澳部主管一百十四年度毒品防治基金業務計劃請參與預算書基金來源用途及餘處基金來源六億六千二百二十二二百二十四萬三千元基金用途六億八千三百八十萬六千元本期短處二千一百五十六萬三千元結繳公庫無列數第四案"},{"start":3471.994,"end":3481.88,"text":"保護部主管114年度財團法人台灣更生保護費預算書案業務計劃請參與預算書業務收支業務總收入39,363萬5千元業務總支出39,363萬5千元本期餘出0元結繳公庫金額及轉投資計劃均無劣數固定資產投資706萬6千元國庫增波基金額無劣數"},{"start":3495.148,"end":3502.111,"text":"114年度財團法人福建更生保護會預算書案業務計劃請參與預算書業務收支業務總收入761萬1千元業務總支出761萬1千元本期餘處0元結巧工戶金額及轉投資計劃均無劣數固定資產投資31萬5千元國庫增波基金額無劣數"},{"start":3514.115,"end":3520.017,"text":"114年度財產法人犯罪被害人保護協會預算書案 業務計劃請參閱預算書 業務收支業務總收入38873萬元 業務總支出38873萬元 本期逾處0元 結繳公庫金額及轉投資計劃均無劣數 固定資產投資224萬1000元 國庫增波機金額無劣數"},{"start":3536.471,"end":3553.7,"text":"继续宣读委员提案部分请参议提案会整表及预算提案内容一四年度中央政府组预算案委员提案会整表法务部主管收支部分税处部分第十二款第一项法务部一案媒体政策及业务宣导费减列八百万元委员黄国昌等提案"},{"start":3554.5,"end":3570.755,"text":"二案科目同前 减列500万元 冻结100万元 委员翁晓琳等提案三案第一幕 一般行政中媒体政策及业务宣导费 冻结5% 委员钟家冰等提案四案第一幕 向校林森迎讨考即进修业务 冻结50万元 委员林思明等提案"},{"start":3571.716,"end":3597.57,"text":"五案至八案第一目向下零三嚴討考即競修業務中業務費之一般事務費分別減略一百四十七萬六千元一百三十萬八千元五十三萬元二十一萬九千元委員黃國昌等提案九案第一目向下零四辦理法制及兩公約人權業務凍結百分之二十為吳宗憲等提案十案科目同情委員凍結百分之三十為林思明等提案"},{"start":3598.91,"end":3627.451,"text":"11案第二幕法务行政派员出国计划减列600万元为黄国昌等提案12案科目同前减列200万元为翁晓琳等提案13案致使5案针对第二幕法务行政13案减列210万4千元为翁晓琳等提案14案冻结250万元冻结641万7千元为翁晓琳等提案15案冻结1200万元为罗志强、刘许婷、许晓鑫等提案"},{"start":3628.571,"end":3642.858,"text":"16案第2目向下01辦理法律事務業務 僅列800萬元委員黃國昌等提案17案第2目向下01中業務費 凍結10%委員羅志強等提案18案第2目向下01中業務費至國外旅費凍結30%委員羅志強徐小新等提案19案第2目向下02中業務費至大陸旅費 凍結30%委員吳宗憲等提案"},{"start":3652.702,"end":3671.633,"text":"二十案第二幕上下零二中用非支顾外旅费冻结三分之一为吴宗宪等提案二十一案科目同检冻结百分之三十为罗志强徐晓欣等提案二十案第二幕上下零二中奖股助费减列八百四十四万六千元冻结一千万元为翁晓玲等提案"},{"start":3672.774,"end":3688.55,"text":"二十三案至二十五案針對第二目向下零三辦理司法保護業務二十三案凍結一千萬元為翁少林等提案二十四案業務費凍結五十萬元為恩成俊宇等提案二十五案業務費至一般事務費凍結百分之十為羅志強等提案"},{"start":3689.891,"end":3713.178,"text":"26案至29案针对第二幕向下零四办理国际级两岸法律事务26案冻结100万元委员中加兵赖会员等提案27案业务费至大陆旅费冻结30%委员吴中县等提案28案业务费至国外旅费冻结30%委员吴中县等提案29案科目统签冻结30%委员罗志强徐巧兴等提案"},{"start":3714.738,"end":3734.007,"text":"30案第二幕向下05補助毒品防治特別收入基金凍結5%委員林思明等提案31案第二幕向下05中獎補助費凍結20%委員林思明徐信英等提案32案第三幕一般建築及設備第二節其他設備凍結1000萬元委員鍾嘉斌賴慧園等提案33案科目銅錢凍結1000萬元委員鍾嘉斌賴慧園等提案"},{"start":3739.97,"end":3765.752,"text":"三十四案第五目司法科技業務向下零一新世代智慧檢查AI科技計畫凍結百分之二十委員吳宗憲等提案三十五案科目同錢凍結一百五十萬元委員林思敏等提案三十六案至五十九案分別為委員吳思堯等委員林思敏等委員歐少林等委員周瑞雄等委員鍾嘉斌等所提主決議第十二款第三項法醫研究所"},{"start":3767.073,"end":3786.406,"text":"60案第二幕法院业务冻结200万元委屋小林等提案61案委屋苏瑶等所提主决议第十二款第四项廉政署62案第二幕廉政业务派员出国计划减兑100万元委屋华国昌等提案63案第二幕廉政业务冻结500万元委屋小林等提案"},{"start":3787.347,"end":3809.858,"text":"六十四案科目統前凍結二百五十萬元委員零四名等提案六十五案科目統前凍結二百萬元委員零四名等提案六十六案第二幕項下零一辦理廉政政策規劃考核業務凍結三百萬元委員少零等提案六十七案委員審發會等所提出決議第十二款第五項矯正暑期所屬六十八案"},{"start":3810.678,"end":3839.318,"text":"第一幕一般行政向下零二基本行政工作維持中業務費至特別費減列二十一萬七千元為翁曉琳等提案六十九案至七十二案針對第二幕矯正業務向下零三辦理矯正行政業務六十九案七十案分別減列一千萬元一千萬元為王國昌等提案七十一案減列一千萬元凍結三千萬元為翁曉琳等提案七十二案凍結一千萬元為中嘉賓賴慧媛等提案"},{"start":3841.567,"end":3861.979,"text":"73案第二幕向下03中设备及投资杂项设备费减免250万元委员中嘉宾等提案74案第二幕向下05办理矫正医疗及训练业务减免1000万元冻结3000万元委员翁晓琳等提案75案第二幕向下05中设备及投资杂项设备费减免500万元委员中嘉宾等提案"},{"start":3863.139,"end":3878.048,"text":"76案台中监狱第二幕矫正业务项下02基本行政工作维持中业务费之特别费减列16万8千亿委员工上林等提案77案至83案分别为委员吴思耀等委员审发会等委员陈俊宇等所提出决议"},{"start":3879.408,"end":3895.714,"text":"第十二款第六項行政執行署及所屬八十四案第三目執行案件處理凍結六百萬元委員零四名等提案八十五案第三目項項03辦理執行業務凍結一千萬元委員翁小林等提案八十六案八十七案委委員零四名等所提組決議"},{"start":3897.415,"end":3914.569,"text":"第十二款第七项最高检查署八十八案第二目检查业务中派员出国计划减免一百万元委员黄国昌等提案八十九案第二目检查业务项下零二督导苏坦其重大刑事案件办理中业务费减免二百万元冻结百分之二十委员黄国昌等提案"},{"start":3915.45,"end":3931.801,"text":"九十案第二目向下零二中医务费至一般事务费冻结十万元委员无中限等提案九十一案第二目向下零二中医务费至国外旅费冻结百分之三十委员国职场需小心等提案第十二款第八项台湾高等警察署"},{"start":3933.202,"end":3948.232,"text":"92案至96案针对第二幕检查业务项下01办理刑事案件侦查及执行等业务92案冻结5%委员黄国昌等提案93案业务废置教育训练费冻结45万4千元委员无中限等提案"},{"start":3949.473,"end":3975.709,"text":"94案 业务费至资讯服务费冻结100万元委员陈俊宇等提案95案 业务费至国外旅费冻结30%委员罗志强 徐晓欣等提案96案 科目同前冻结三分之一委员吴宗宪等提案97案 第二幕向下零四强化社会安全网第二期计划冻结20%委员吴宗宪等提案98案 科目同前冻结2000万元委员吴晓宁等提案99案 委员陈俊宇等所提主决议"},{"start":3976.75,"end":4000.84,"text":"第十二款第十四項台灣台北地方檢查署一百案第一幕一般行政項下零二基本行政工作維持中醫務費至特別費凍結百分之三十五元吳宗憲等提案第十二款第三十一項台灣宜蘭地方檢查署一零一案第三幕一般建築及設備第一節交通及運輸設備減列六十萬元為吳宗憲等提案"},{"start":4001.92,"end":4028.701,"text":"第十二款第37项调查局102案判员出国计划简历200万元文文王国昌等提案103案第一幕一般行政项下06出国参加会议及训练中业务费至国外旅费冻结30%文文罗志强徐晓兴等提案104案第一幕项下07机关资料传输任性强化即发放共用基础平台监制计划冻结30%文文罗志强徐晓兴等提案"},{"start":4029.882,"end":4045.291,"text":"105案第二幕司法调查业务中媒体政策及业务宣导费减兑100万元委员黄国昌等提案106案第二幕向下04国家安全维护及安全防护工作中业务费之一般事务费减兑100万元冻结50万元委员翁晓琳等提案"},{"start":4046.732,"end":4073.881,"text":"107案第二幕向下06经济犯罪纺织中业务费至国外旅费冻结30%委员罗志强徐晓鑫等提案108案第三幕监视科学及通讯监察业务向下03通讯监察工作中设备及投资冻结1000万元欧小林等提案109案科目统签冻结20%委员黄国昌等提案110案之114案分别为委员吴思耀等委员陈俊宇等委员审发会等所提主决议"},{"start":4076.587,"end":4100.949,"text":"一四年度房屋部矫正机关作业基金提案一案总支出向下成本与费用冻结一千万元委员欧少林等提案一四年度毒品防治基金预算提案一案基金用途冻结一千万元委员欧少林等提案二案基金用途向下矫正关乎社区预防毒品防治计划冻结五百万元委员欧少林等提案宣读完毕"},{"start":4106.439,"end":4123.938,"text":"預算數及所有提案均已宣讀完畢進行討論前 先說明預算案的處理方式依照委員會處理預算案的慣例稅入部分依來源別以巷為單位稅出部分依機關別以木為單位 分別依序進行審查"},{"start":4125.556,"end":4144.885,"text":"各單位預算中於處理委員所提知增三提案後其餘未涉及預算部分均以照列有關正式別稅出預算隨同機關別審查結果調整預算提案經由整理後請分別參閱提案本集會整表進行討論"},{"start":4147.213,"end":4171.596,"text":"另外特別提醒機關稍後經討論決議修正的預算提案請機關將修正內容經提案委員簽名同意後送交主席台並均列入公報記錄審查預算過程中如有列席幕僚與首次答覆委員問題發言時請先自行介紹職稱姓名以立公報人員記錄"},{"start":4174.671,"end":4188.152,"text":"現在進行討論四項第一案繼續審查114年度中央政府從事商案關於法務部所屬主管收支部分先處理稅務部分因為沒有委員提案稅務部分均照列"},{"start":4190.583,"end":4208.068,"text":"稅錄處理完畢 繼續處理稅出提案共計收到114案 處理實際照慣例按照會診表所排列的提案順序依序由提案委員先就提案內容進行說明之後再由機關代表域答覆然後整目一起處理做成決議請參閱提案本期會診表依序進行討論好"},{"start":4219.127,"end":4219.848,"text":"我這邊有好我們現在就暗號1跟2"},{"start":4246.943,"end":4274.758,"text":"部分進行討論 請黃國昌或王小林委員你們要進行說明嗎好 黃委員第一案針對有關於法務部所編列的媒體政策及業務宣傳編列了1234萬5千元不過看法務部所謂的媒體政策跟業務宣傳實際的成效到底在哪裡完全看不出來"},{"start":4276.291,"end":4305.081,"text":"他們後來給我的書面說明說要去宣導什麼司法改革要宣導什麼兩公約人權然後要宣導打詐我看了下去以過去這一年2024年去年前年整個執行的成效完全看不出來人民需要的不是法務部在那邊撒銀子在媒體上面做大內宣"},{"start":4306.249,"end":4327.157,"text":"要你們採取的是具體的行動啊法務部自己盤點一下斯坦國際會議決議的內容到現在有多少連案子都沒有送到立法院來還要辦什麼兩公約宣導 辦兩公約宣導我那時候在質詢的時候就問啊國際審查專家認為違反兩公約事項的一而再再而三告訴你們"},{"start":4335.029,"end":4343.796,"text":"根本也沒有做啊所以啊我也沒有把它全部都刪除啊一千兩百三十四萬簡略八百萬元那翁委員"},{"start":4352.11,"end":4355.994,"text":"好的本席這次也是針對法務部14年的預算編列了1234萬那我這裡是提出是要這個減列500萬凍結100萬但最主要的原因也還是針對法務部本身的"},{"start":4370.907,"end":4393.395,"text":"媒體宣傳成效提出質疑那麼其實本席一再重申我並不反對而且也相當的程度支持行政機關是應該要對於政策去進行一些媒體的宣導業務宣導這是應該的但是我們也更需要的去檢討去了解到底這些業務成效如何"},{"start":4395.276,"end":4411.594,"text":"那根據我們調查的結果譬如說你訪問過現在本身的YouTube頻道你大概只有4570位的訂閱數然後在過去的不管是防詐影片農漁會反賄選影片我們截至到"},{"start":4412.814,"end":4436.539,"text":"這個1月7號我們都有看到這個網路上面你們YouTube頻道上面所PO的這些影片那個點贏的次數都很差那麼像農漁會的版會選大概都只有150幾次300多次然後或是對就是大概都是一兩百次等等的那防炸影片那有些也才800多次900多次或是1300多次就是我們如果說"},{"start":4439.6,"end":4449.668,"text":"民眾有興趣去看法務部的YouTube頻道的經營的成效你就可以知道花了那麼多錢可是成效也不髒而且我們過去在講這個防詐宣導為什麼說它的成果不好就因為這個被詐騙的人越來越多然後被詐騙的金額也越來越高那麼在整個看起來"},{"start":4463.823,"end":4475.72,"text":"整個法務部這裡所講的不管是要針對這個洗錢防治啊然後打詐詐欺然後毒品防治等等這些媒體宣傳效果是"},{"start":4477.014,"end":4505.612,"text":"看不出有什麼積極的成效而且話說回來他有些項目譬如說對於兩公約人權的宣導你們這個宣傳宣媒體業務宣傳的的項目其實也與監察院的人權委員會有高度的重疊那既然如果說監察院的沒宣費裡面有包含國家人權業務的宣導那行政院的防部這邊的話其實也可以就"},{"start":4507.463,"end":4527.79,"text":"減少那個沒宣的費用那麼此外呢本席這次也發現你們在沒宣費的執行表中有很多多數的預算來源的科目並沒有被彙整到你們預算書當中的媒體政策及業務宣導這個沒有被彙整到"},{"start":4529.253,"end":4555.036,"text":"預算書當中的媒體政策及業務宣導費的會計表裡面那麼我們明明就是要求所有的沒宣費都要在集中一個專區而且沒宣費應該在預算書中獨立的列表可是看起來你們基本是將沒宣費有些是藏在其他的預算科目裡面所以最後呢會導致這個整個帳目是對不起來的那基於這些理由那麼本席認為"},{"start":4556.357,"end":4569.347,"text":"法務部這次的沒宣費用應該要檢列檢列五百萬然後凍結一百萬那麼也請你們要在一個月之內向立法院司法法治委員會提出專案報告之後並經同意才可以凍結以上羅委員"},{"start":4574.71,"end":4586.996,"text":"我接續我們跟黃國昌委員跟汪小林委員然後對這個沒宣的費用有一些意見我先唸幾個數字給大家聽剛剛其實汪小林委員講了我們法務部的YouTube的訂閱現在是4580個"},{"start":4590.678,"end":4618.861,"text":"那我把最新的10支影片的點擊率告訴大家最新一支是22然後第二支是10第三支是10次第四支是4次第五支是5次第六支是8次第七支是4次第八支是11次第九支是2次然後第十支是14次那如果說一個月內看起來最高的大概是我看一下那已經很前面了"},{"start":4619.775,"end":4637.738,"text":"再來都是大概個位數然後一百多次最近的一個三週前是一千九百次兩千八百次所以換言之我覺得剛剛汪小林委員講就是說到底我們法務部"},{"start":4638.539,"end":4663.17,"text":"他的整個的宣導的那個成效如何我們真的是打很大的問號那第二個就是說事實上預算我一直在覺得預算只有兩個面第一個面就是說當然我覺得法務部需要宣導的經費這個是無庸置疑但是如果你宣導成效不好能夠鼓勵你把宣導成效做好最好的方式其實就是刪你預算不然怎麼辦呢"},{"start":4664.17,"end":4693.252,"text":"那你知道說今天你沒有做好你預算就會被減嘛就從績效管理上來講的話本來在我們能夠做的去督促跟所謂的鼓勵免利法務部把事情做好的方式就是預算監督啊所以預算監督你那你今年我們覺得你過去做不好那給你一點點鼓勵在尊潔上讓你要求你更尊潔一點的時候那來年你明年今年你整個法務部的宣導績效做得好的話"},{"start":4694.153,"end":4718.242,"text":"那麼當然未來我們在預算上就有基礎就有底氣在說你再增加預算那第二個就是說第三個就是說事實上很抱歉我也不客氣的講我們這次政府普遍在過去執行預算尤其煤圈的部分你會發現有兩大弊端集中度非常高經常都集中在所謂特定的媒體上面那第二個就是"},{"start":4719.663,"end":4739.911,"text":"用所謂的那個限制性招標的方式非常的普遍那這些方式都是引起外界質疑說你是不是在養綠莓是不是在養網球我不是講法務部啦我是講一個通案現象那甚至有些可以高達九成是這樣幹的時候那說真的我們就開始有一個很大的問號啊"},{"start":4741.252,"end":4762.943,"text":"今天你雖然說要宣導經費但是我看你也沒有那麼需要宣導經費政府宣導經費拿來去養綠媒養網軍嗎那你這樣子告訴我說我要給你多少的宣導經費呢所以這是第三個面向第四個面向我覺得也非常重要就是我們叫不持捐低乃成大海"},{"start":4763.883,"end":4780.36,"text":"因為最近我像 尤其是我們通過了那個警察人士條例嘛那對於我們警消尤其一些執法同仁我們他的危險勤務同仁我們希望退休保障多一點一年大概增加30多億的支出結果我看到"},{"start":4781.547,"end":4805.156,"text":"我們的政府大喊說要破產了國家要亡了這些警消人員不值得這種待遇30億那麼多你們怎麼可以拿你們好意思拿嗎然後還可以把人分兩段喔今天黃國昌如果當警察他跟你講說今天在野黨這樣做是對不起還在當警察的黃國昌他只幫助了退休的黃國昌人可以切兩段的喔"},{"start":4806.662,"end":4826.964,"text":"我實在不能懂民進黨的邏輯人可以切兩段啦警察在在職的時候你給他保障跟他退休給他保障你保障都是同一個人都是人沒有說今天當警察的今天你說要保障不當警察退休之後就不是人沒有這種事情啦"},{"start":4827.665,"end":4849.422,"text":"所以因此在這邊為什麼每個預算我們今天要求是盡量能夠有效率的尊潔當用則用 當省則省也是為了民進黨政府著想因為民進黨一直喊窮嘛超徵四千億五千億也喊窮啊地方要三千億他也喊窮啊然後我們錦囂退休一年三十億也喊窮啊窮成這個樣子 宣導費亂花那我們幫忙政府"},{"start":4855.567,"end":4863.113,"text":"把他那麼喊窮的部分捐低捐低一筆一筆的幫他遵截所以我很支持我們國昌兄對啊這邊沒宣費省800萬政府就多800萬可以運用啊多好啊"},{"start":4870.658,"end":4892.231,"text":"所以我覺得今天法務部第一個 過去的績效不彰那今天用我們預算專節的方式免利法務部以後做得更好第二 既然政府一直喊窮 對不對那我們也法務部也做一點貢獻能夠在沒宣費用上面的話能夠去多多幫助我們政府能夠讓政府做得更好財政更豐裕 以上 謝謝好 謝謝那 請問機關不好意思 我剛剛沒看到中召委"},{"start":4900.556,"end":4921.483,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛聆聽了我們三位委員對於媒體政策及業務宣導費他的會呈表當中他列了一千兩百三十四萬五千元那有要求要減列八百萬有要求要減列五百萬動減一百萬那三位委員都分別就他們的提案以及對於媒體"},{"start":4922.458,"end":4937.274,"text":"政府在執行媒體政策上的一些看法那在這裡大概分別有幾點要來就教於我們行政機關那首先政府辦理媒體宣傳或政策宣應該說是政府辦理的政策業務宣導"},{"start":4938.82,"end":4967.159,"text":"本來就是政府應該做的 因為人民有知的權利但是過去呢 呈如剛剛幾位委員所說的 常被詬病的就是政府自己在置辦的時候呢 方式上要注意那譬如說 以剛剛羅委員所關心的就是YouTube啦 也包括那個翁委員也關心的這些頻道呢 大概呢 我在過去幾次預算審議跟平常的質詢幾乎委員都會先拿 不管是法務部啦 其他各部也是這樣子啦"},{"start":4967.739,"end":4978.846,"text":"各部會自己自營的官網上的YouTube頻道其實點閱率都很低那這一點行政機關尤其法務部要去思考一下有誰有事沒事會去上法務部的網站看"},{"start":4980.134,"end":5004.304,"text":"所以其實要法務部自己經營的官網那要有會對法務部官網有興趣的人過去個人在地方政府服務其實地方政府如果真的正式的官網點閱率最高的是什麼是招標採購因為這些工程廠商他要知道說有哪些公告上網的要招標採購他會來點閱其他的其實就算是新聞發布也是記者在看"},{"start":5004.858,"end":5018.402,"text":"那記者他會去點閱嗎 也不會所以其實行政機關包括法務部請部長真的要去思考一下真的要用自己法務部的官網去推動你們的政策宣導嗎"},{"start":5020.463,"end":5040.752,"text":"還是說您會透過其他的方式譬如說跟其他的通路媒體通路合作那將你們的政策內容錄出其實大家就非常關切打詐那我自己呢在經常收到的打詐的簡訊當中呢我不曉得是不是有跟政府機關合作但是呢這些打詐相關的一些"},{"start":5041.912,"end":5054.999,"text":"架設的平台呢他們經常會提供有趣的影片那麼製作呢讓人家覺得親切的影片讓大家去注意到又或者是呢只要隨時有新的詐騙方式出來那他就主動"},{"start":5056.018,"end":5081.375,"text":"投放所以點閱只是一個你們有沒有主動投放的能力有沒有辦法去跟媒體上的通路合作透過他們的通路去投放你們希望的訊息我想這個認真來檢討我們的媒體政策跟業務宣導我覺得切中要害的不單純只是做預算的剪裂或凍結而具體的提出你們現在問題在哪裡"},{"start":5083.896,"end":5098.826,"text":"那麼至於剛剛其實也提到一個情況就是限制性招標其實我來自於地方政府限制性招標過去有一些不完整的論述其實公共工程的採購那麼在一定公告金額以下的"},{"start":5099.386,"end":5116.648,"text":"它就是可以用限制性招標 多少錢呢有的服務案10萬元以下因為公告金額是100萬嘛100萬未達公告金額十分之一它就是限制性招標這很多的地方 未達10萬元它就是用三家比價的方式進行這叫做限制性招標那我真的要請機關"},{"start":5118.05,"end":5135.493,"text":"去盤點一下如果你們的媒體的預算經常是在這種公告金額未達十分之一那麼就用限制性招標那表示你們是什麼你們是單筆單筆的投放譬如說這個要投放到哪個頻道上可能五萬塊那個要投放到多少八萬塊"},{"start":5136.474,"end":5161.931,"text":"那像這種情況如果你們有特定的通路因為在限制性採購上面它有規定也就是說譬如說你要針對哪個族群希望他們知道你這個政策那你需要透過跟他有關係的通路來播放那因此就必須跟他討論但是如果你超過一定公告金額以上的還是不能用限制性招標除非有夠強的理由但是因為這樣長期以來這種零星式的媒體採購"},{"start":5163.452,"end":5181.681,"text":"會造成外界對於政府進行業務宣導上的一個誤會如果零零總總的把你們的這個我看到你們這裡一般行政項下編列了八十八萬一千元坦白說如果您是有十幾次的投放每一次投放大概都未達公告金額十分之一"},{"start":5182.472,"end":5197.812,"text":"那大概可想而知你們行政機關上就是採取什麼就是採取限制性招標啊就是參加筆價了嘛那可是外界看來呢加總起來你們整個年度所有的媒體採購都是限制性招標如果你們沒有去區分清楚的去做區分"},{"start":5198.453,"end":5212.414,"text":"那麼就會讓外界詬病你們是不是用拆包的方式在規避政府採購法的規定所以這是我提出的第二點我是覺得過去政府機關法務部也可以要注意在媒體採購上你們容易犯的一些問題"},{"start":5213.556,"end":5226.686,"text":"那麼如果說你是整個的整包加起來 譬如說兩百萬 三百萬但是呢 跟大型的通路合作但是你這時候就遵循採購法叫他來做服務建議書 來做這個評審評審之後呢 才決標那有時候還是付出決標因為呢 有時候呢 一個"},{"start":5231.329,"end":5240.401,"text":"不管是電子媒體啦他可能有廣播電台有有線電視有無線電視可能呢你們不會獨厚一家所以我們在招標採購上還有複數的採購所以建議機關如果你們預算足夠可能避免單筆單筆的小筆的"},{"start":5247.571,"end":5259.445,"text":"那種十萬元以下的零星式的一次性的採購而能做全年度的統合計畫但是呢你們統合計畫發包的時候呢以複數決標的方式呢可能較能夠發揮倒不是說"},{"start":5262.669,"end":5281.578,"text":"防止弊端而已而是能夠在通路上的廣泛的接觸到各個受眾的需求那我在這裡是很誠懇的利用預算審查的機會不希望只是透過預算的簡列跟凍結來鞭策行政機關而是就我們過去實務商常常看到的情況剛剛所說的限制性招標那個可能就是你們零星採購的結果"},{"start":5282.819,"end":5296.632,"text":"第二個,如果你們會被外界認為獨厚某家通路或獨厚某家媒體那麼建議你們集中一定金額以上之後,採公開的一個評審方式但是呢,就算公開評審也可以付諸絕標"},{"start":5298.193,"end":5312.7,"text":"那另外呢你們也應該要跟那個行政院去反應因為目前很多通路尤其是這種媒體的宣傳他其實只是要跟受眾不見得哪個通路要有獨特性這時候我們所謂的過去有那種"},{"start":5318.393,"end":5328.663,"text":"就是由臺灣銀行辦理的類似這樣的採購服務他就是說你反正公定價格嘛他就統一包嘛你們用多少算多少這個你們怎麼稱呼啊"},{"start":5331.447,"end":5355.986,"text":"對 共同供應契約 一下想不出來 共同供應契約如果有共同供應契約其實也應該用共同供應契約去處理那這樣的比較不會被詬病那倒是在這裡有一個部分要提醒主席的因為這個部分目前雖然在我們預算書的128頁它是規範在媒體政策及業務宣導費的會計表當中但是它是在一個向下的兩個幕"},{"start":5358.107,"end":5376.24,"text":"那我們剛剛主席一開始就宣布了我們一開始今天的預算審查是依照募來做討論的那目前前面這兩個提案它跨了兩個募一個是一般行政一個是法務行政那如果待會要處理的話恐怕在一般行政這個募只有88萬1千元在法務行政這個募有1146萬4千元"},{"start":5381.463,"end":5408.195,"text":"那如果不管要檢列多少要凍結多少或者要求改成像我自己本來有提案那我後來我覺得我的提案呢我覺得呢我希望不是用檢列的方式也不是用凍結的方式我希望很具體的告訴行政機關你們怎麼去調整你們的媒體或業務宣導的方向那才不會有出現剛剛幾位委員所詬病的那種方式那我還是要提醒一下其實呢就這兩個提案內容呢還好有兩位委員在做補充不然的話"},{"start":5409.375,"end":5430.954,"text":"以提案的方式只有三行不到,三行而已那另外第二案,文委員的提案至少要點出YouTube那講到YouTube我們至少就可以知道你們的媒宣政策上用YouTube這個方式絕對不是說絕對啦要避免用自己的官網作為你們投放的通路"},{"start":5431.795,"end":5459.77,"text":"老實說政府機關的官網不太會有很多人有興趣去看所以如果你們要用影音的平台要用這種方式去投放你們應該去找到其他的一個適合的方式那循著公共工程採購的方式依法來處理這樣才能達到有效的政策宣導目的那以上是誠懇的跟你們建議那也希望主席待會在處理的時候能夠留意到它是分別在一般行政幕下跟法務行政幕下是不同的內容那我們怎麼去處理 以上"},{"start":5463.188,"end":5487.391,"text":"好 請問機關有沒有意見要補充謝謝委員的一個寶貴的一個意見那我想這個事實上我們編列的這個金額委員都清楚這個是才1234萬5千元這個是比去年上個年度是增加90萬那我想這個我們也是要追求更大的一個效果"},{"start":5488.152,"end":5501.976,"text":"那剛剛委員就提了 那我們在這個年度的一個執行這邊我們在投為一個規劃那事實上我們也不是做什麼限制性招標 那個事實上我們有公開招標那至於那個媒體的一個通路的話 我想我們會檢討這個一個成效的一個問題"},{"start":5504.622,"end":5513.212,"text":"那因為今年我們希望說這次凍結再加起來已經超過共結那1300萬已經超過整個預算的一個編列數了那今年也農議會的一個選舉那也有一段的一個"},{"start":5521.96,"end":5543.631,"text":"要必須要做一個反賄選的一個宣導那另外洗錢防治等等還有毒品詐欺法治等等這些都需要做媒體的一個宣導那我想這部分你必須要跟我們國民來做一個說明那我們希望如果說這個這個有簡略的那我們這邊就可能在一個"},{"start":5544.215,"end":5551.882,"text":"宣導正面可能會會比較大的一個一個一個一個影響幫美建立說請委員能夠多支持做以上的一個補充是這樣子的因為呢你們其實陸續這些年都有做了像是這個防打炸的"},{"start":5564.825,"end":5589.39,"text":"打炸的影片洗錢防治然後賄選等等這些影片都有做那請問這些影片內容是有過期或是需要再更新的地方嗎有些影片內容如果說一直可以持續的用的話你就不需要再重新製作那重點就是它的宣傳效益不彰那宣傳效益不彰的問題呢我在這裡我要請教請教調查局今天調查局局長有來嗎"},{"start":5597.234,"end":5597.254,"text":"是"},{"start":5599.141,"end":5627.849,"text":"局長請問一下你們調查局做的影片您曾經有看過嗎有 我有看過這樣子現在有一個叫深度偽造影片的防治宣導你有看過嗎是那有在你們調查局的頻道上面嗎剛剛那個委員也有指教過其實我們就是投放的那個路徑的問題在我們官網民眾進去點閱的確實是很少大概可能都不到一千人可是在那個YouTube上面點閱的就有好幾萬"},{"start":5628.809,"end":5644.327,"text":"的人士有去看過 其實是有那個效果產生深度偽造影片的防制宣鬧根本沒有放在你們調查局的官方頻道上我看一下好 然後呢 這個就是調查局的你們之前 到目前為止你們頻道只有兩部影片"},{"start":5644.747,"end":5662.274,"text":"一部是中信兄弟的國安廣告另外一部是戴資穎的國安宣導短片那戴資穎的國安宣導短片是112年做的可是因為後來肖像權的關係所以都已經下架了所以其實代表說像這樣的一個宣導花了很多錢去做"},{"start":5664.015,"end":5689.276,"text":"這個宣導短片但是因為考慮到一些名人他的肖像權等等的他們的肖期基本上也許只有一年所以這都是你們之後必須要再檢討的這個我們會檢討那一支花了14萬多14萬多也是錢對戴志穎那一支是好好的先請坐好謝謝另外最高檢察署今天最高檢察署蘇珊有來嗎"},{"start":5692.426,"end":5702.042,"text":"不好意思檢查總長總長請問您知道你們有沒有YouTube頻道有你們現在訂閱數有多少你知道嗎"},{"start":5705.046,"end":5732.334,"text":"我說明一下,我們這都沒有花錢,是我們自己剪輯做的是這樣,你們現在只有408位的訂閱者然後你們的影片,看起來還有中英日版所以代表你們檢察署裡面的人才記輯這些中英日的影片,你們都可以自己製作這個我要說明一下,這個配音因為要專業人才,這個是我們要請外面人來做的"},{"start":5735.418,"end":5738.522,"text":"所以這個到底影片是你們自己做的還是委外的"},{"start":5739.4,"end":5768.442,"text":"剪輯因為這個我跟委員報告一下裡面的海報資料都是我們原來我們自己用業務費做的但是這個剪輯還有一些配音我們沒有那個技術因為我們人很少所以我們就必須要拜託人家來幫我們剪輯一下好的 檢察長我想您不用再說明這麼多因為我可以很清楚的知道您根本沒有看到你們的影片是有些什麼從頭到尾都我們自己做每一頁我都看了委員有機會把它看一看您現在您可以講一下你們你看了什麼影片"},{"start":5769.517,"end":5791.613,"text":"我現在講的中英日版的這是什麼影片就是正氣嘛正氣然後所以正氣都是你們同仁自己剪輯的那個剪輯是委外的沒有辦法我們沒有那整個製作呢影片拍攝呢拍攝就我們檢察官啊裡面全部是檢察官啊不是裡面主要是檢察官但是整個的影片的拍攝製作企劃企劃都我們自己弄"},{"start":5792.782,"end":5809.737,"text":"我們就剪輯委外而已啦裡面的拍攝那個內容都是我們自己檢察官自己弄的請問委員如果有機會看一下就知道你們自己接經費就可以節省了嘛雖然說看起來成效真的是不好嘛就是每一個影片到目前為止觀看次數有20次19次我跟委員報告一下選舉的時候播放的現在選舉已經結束了"},{"start":5813.575,"end":5841.197,"text":"而且那時候當時因為我們做完之後這個才放到選舉完才上去因為這個youtube它這個不是隨便都可以放的啦所以我們當時選舉的時候是拍是給一般民眾看的那選舉完的時候它才上youtube的所以那時效已經過了如果委員有空把它看就知道是那像這樣的影片內容不是應該要一直不斷的宣傳嗎這不是只有在選舉期間對不對而且呢坦白說你們最高檢察署的員工可能都不只20個人吧"},{"start":5842.518,"end":5862.342,"text":"你們自己內部的人你們都沒有自己去看過這個我跟委員報告如果委員看到這邊手邊有了有這個有一萬多次的也有七千多次的委員看什麼版本啊因為我們在不同的地方放比如說委員這邊就有如果委員我現在看一下你看在這個一年前看了就一萬次我們2004年那個訪問國立篇一萬次那超馬篇七千四百多次這都在這裡啊都有東西可積的"},{"start":5870.037,"end":5880.899,"text":"是啊 所以你們去看看嘛我這邊也是全部都列出來嘛就是大家有興趣的話現在立刻點到最高檢察署的YouTube頻道上面去看就知道委員有空馬上可以看這個手機在這裡委員如果有興趣看的話英文版四個月前到現在四個月之前播的到現在二十次然後呢這個不同的數據不同的頻道如果委員有興趣看我們這邊馬上可以看委員看一萬多次的"},{"start":5898.323,"end":5918.385,"text":"這個宣傳績效好不好啊所以我不是跟你辯論我完全就是事實的陳述那宣傳績效好不好的這個地方是大家可受公平的那至於檢察長你認為說你們這樣的宣傳績效很好的話那是您個人的看法那我只是要講的就是說可能你這些影片"},{"start":5919.586,"end":5935.124,"text":"連你們最高檢察署檢察官或相關的員工都不知道有這些影片那同樣的你法務部調查局然後連政署等等你們都有做這些宣傳影片但是事實很清楚就是成效不彰更何況這些影片內容它沒有時效性的"},{"start":5935.965,"end":5959.513,"text":"做了之後它可以一直還可以再播送所以本席是認為這一次的媒體宣傳費必須要減劣那麼重要是說你們要把之前已經製作過的影片讓它有效的去做宣傳而不是一直在製作一些新影片然後點閱次數可能百次都不到甚至只有十幾二十次這個真的是叫浪費人民的納稅錢我跟各位報一下這影片還被列為熱門我先看一下"},{"start":5966.072,"end":5989.521,"text":"那個莊委員先舉手 所以莊委員先然後接下來是黃委員再來吳委員謝謝莊委我看這黃國昌委員跟歐小林委員這兩個提案我都看到了我想針對整個媒體政策跟業務非宣導的部分黃委員是檢列八百"},{"start":5990.541,"end":6016.598,"text":"那原律師其實才1234萬那歐委員是減列500剛剛我相信委員所指教的這一些我也聽不出一個所以然說要去把它減列掉這麼的多那以各個部會來看那我們在各個委員會裡面在看各個部會來看的話媒體宣傳這個部分大家都會去談它的一個效果"},{"start":6017.658,"end":6036.236,"text":"華為部是一個我認為是一個比較特殊的一個單位啦你像譬如說它這個也不是說像其他各個部會有大筆錢啦反而它所執掌的尤其類似於到這一陣子我們在社會法治委員會這麼多我也聆聽到很多委員對於說整個打詐的一個宣傳"},{"start":6039.179,"end":6064.08,"text":"洗錢的這個一個宣傳兩公約的部分我倒是比較沒有去著墨這邊的一個宣傳的方式啦但是整個打擊整個犯罪洗錢防詐那這些反而是大家要求要去更進一步的去落實啦在今天編列這樣的一個預算是不是請黃委員這個地方還有那個翁委員這個地方"},{"start":6064.861,"end":6070.233,"text":"簡略的部分是不是可以來再做一個修正因為畢竟"},{"start":6071.954,"end":6098.889,"text":"我也比較難想像說法務部它這個地方會有網軍不然你應該也沒有網軍吧你也沒有網軍你自己出去就嚇嚇叫了還說什麼網軍你們現在預算被砍是很合理啦很合理啦就是說各黨情緒不太好啦但是啦以媒體的一個整個政策的一個宣傳的部分的話你們那個執行率都應該全部都執行完嘛"},{"start":6103.007,"end":6118.407,"text":"那九成多不是說執行效率不彰反而是沒有達到說在委員會裡面大家要求的就是說這幾年整個洗錢該如何去做一個房子讓老百姓知道"},{"start":6120.229,"end":6145.283,"text":"這個整個打詐的部分應該去更落實那這個部分是整個怎麼樣去落實的問題倒不是說他的這個錢花得太多那是不是也請黃委員跟翁委員這筆預算打詐的宣傳這個媒體政策的部分我看起來我真的是沒有看到說他們這個錢拿去亂花或者說特別去關注到哪一個媒體"},{"start":6146.397,"end":6173.439,"text":"那這個部分以跟你們過去長期的一些監督主張的部分好像也沒有違背是不是也可以給他們給法務部來做一個支持我倒認為這陣子我們要求法務部或者要求調查局去針對整個國內這個詐騙的部分再去痛打我們把行則也都提高了那這個部分"},{"start":6174.591,"end":6202.125,"text":"成效看到了可是更可怕的是說那個詐騙的金額也是越來越大那這個到底是法務部或者我們檢警機關的這個大家好像是說好像是你們執行自己的業務打擊犯罪不利還是我們這個被批評成越打越詐以後是沒做事還是"},{"start":6204.451,"end":6229.91,"text":"詐騙的人、寫信的人就是那些人我一直也在思考這樣的一個問題但是是不是也給他們的努力給法務部他們的一個努力給他們一點支持在整個對於民眾的溝通的部分你既然會認為說因為打詐的方式其實是我每個禮拜在服務處裡面我受到那些懲刑的案件"},{"start":6231.328,"end":6250.721,"text":"也不是廣告的就被騙了也有很多國務委員退休的也有很多都地勢紛紛的也是被騙了所以這個部分我反而就覺得宣傳還不夠了宣傳還不到位但這個不到位的部分是我們也確實應該去精進啦要去精進啦那是不是請黃委員 請黃委員這部分"},{"start":6253.543,"end":6264.053,"text":"監督白鴨 監督啦這部分喔 我是認為說沒有看到是那麼亂花錢的一個地方啦也請大家給他們一個支持啦 謝謝黃委員 黃委員 完結 吳委員我具體說明一下齁 就針對喔"},{"start":6273.463,"end":6296.758,"text":"剛剛中委員站在執政黨立委的立場幫法務部說話我是敬表尊重但無法同意我同意的是法務部花錢的確是很有效率編預算裡面的錢都花了差不多了花錢很有效率我質疑的是效果"},{"start":6298.188,"end":6327.741,"text":"不是花錢的效率是宣傳的效果以及宣傳的內容你們說要宣傳司法改革你們也花了錢去拍了司法改革的宣導短片在法務部司法改革的宣導短片叫做我們都一樣看了150次這不是上禮拜上架的這是去年上架的"},{"start":6329.824,"end":6356.111,"text":"花錢跟全體國人說我們都一樣一年前上架看了150次我還不是只有對次數有意見我連對你們宣傳的內容都很有意見我們都一樣怎麼會一樣完全不一樣啊你要談到司法改革要談到打詐要談到洗錢"},{"start":6357.881,"end":6380.87,"text":"前兩天專門在幫詐騙集團的洗錢犯洗錢的林秉文不就大剌剌的跟台灣社會講我哪有跟你們一樣啊我不一樣啊我政治的八股很強啊鄭文燦啊把我的PGtalkPGtalk是拿來幹嘛的我兩年前就講了幫詐騙集團在洗錢的啊那個叫PGtalk"},{"start":6389.482,"end":6392.743,"text":"我當初這樣講的時候林秉文臉皮有夠厚的還跑去告我林秉文這樣跟台灣社會講怎麼會我們都一樣我們目前司法改革的成效 打詐的成效打擊洗錢的成效最有力的宣傳片不就林秉文嗎他跟整個台灣社會講啊我們哪裡有一樣 完全不一樣"},{"start":6420.322,"end":6421.763,"text":"完全不一樣啊拍這種片子出來擦脂抹粉粉飾太平有什麼意義難怪點擊率慘不能賭嘛人民根本看不下去啊這個錢不是說 我有執行錢有花下去 銀子撒下去 這樣就算了我說效果慘不能賭嘛"},{"start":6449.482,"end":6478.564,"text":"理由就到這裡啊現在還是只有處理法務部的部分啊剛剛歐委員講最高檢察署的部分刑檢察莊長好像很有意見覺得歐委員講的不對啊但是後來實際我實事求是啊我不會人家別的委員說什麼我就相信什麼我就上去最高檢察署看沒有錯啊你們正氣系列的有沒有花錢 有花錢啊"},{"start":6480.376,"end":6497.808,"text":"有花錢啊有中文版、英文版、日文版啊那你說有什麼上萬次的你上萬次的應該是2024年Vote台灣反賄選台灣宣傳影片活力篇PSX成語檢察官一年多前上的那個5340次當然我還沒有去看啊是花了多少錢做這個片子"},{"start":6506.767,"end":6514.832,"text":"剛二人提出來的你們正氣系列的四個月前上的二十次日文版的十九次英文版的四次正氣三奉法者強則國強四個月三十次正氣二點擊數最高四個月前法老會會一百零六次"},{"start":6534.978,"end":6559.747,"text":"花納稅人的錢,做出來的騙子沒有關係啦,你等一下有什麼意見,你直接拿麥克風講啦等我說完了以後,你有什麼要回覆的,就請你拿麥克風講嘛這裡法院基本的議事規則,我相信最高檢察署的檢察中帳應該可以遵守,沒有這麼困難"},{"start":6564.212,"end":6572.11,"text":"那五委員 待會五委員那個提問完之後再麻煩機關一併回答五委員 五委員完畢之後是召委"},{"start":6574.448,"end":6598.256,"text":"好謝謝主席那針對這一筆整個宣傳行銷的費用我想法務部也不要洩氣我想這一次在各個部門審預算裡頭其實這個宣傳費用已經就是普遍的被在野黨的委員拿來檢視再檢視那可能一開始審查之前還沒進入實質審查"},{"start":6599.276,"end":6618.546,"text":"就已經對外宣告一定會大砍一定會下手啦所以我相信就大家做好準備那我認為是這樣不管在地方政府在中央政府那都會編列相關的政策推廣的預算"},{"start":6619.944,"end":6645.933,"text":"這是從地方到中央不論誰執政這個預算也不是鎮部長你來才有嘛對不對那編列這個預算無非是要推廣政策要把我們的政策布打給人民所以在法務部進行的當然司法改革是需要好好跟人民來做布打做對話那這幾年的這個黑金槍"},{"start":6647.613,"end":6669.512,"text":"毒、炸都是我們要去強化宣導的反毒、防毒每個立委都要求你們做得不夠要再做試炸、防炸每個委員都在告訴你們做得不夠好要繼續加碼處理所以黑金、槍、毒、炸對抗所有的犯罪是要全民一起來"},{"start":6670.819,"end":6679.016,"text":"那我是認為如果這一筆預算我認為大家應當都朝野委員都站在同樣的角度認為應當做"},{"start":6681.263,"end":6707.157,"text":"只是大家認為做要做好那做好效益如何去驗證也許是流量上的數字或也許是一個好的論述生活社會所肯認那個好或不好效果如何其實是見仁見智但是不管做得好不好到不到位大家滿不滿意至少這件事情是要做的"},{"start":6708.303,"end":6731.877,"text":"對不對宣傳去推廣政策這就是執政者天經地義的責任也是義務但是呢回過頭來看看王小林委員跟黃國昌委員的提案翁委員是三五百萬動一百萬就是總體一千兩百萬的二分之一每頂每檔等於就是砍了一半的意思"},{"start":6732.816,"end":6753.309,"text":"那黃國昌委員呢這個下手又可能更重了一點點他是砍八百萬變成是三分之二的媒體的這些宣傳都不要做了所以回過頭來邏輯到底是什麼又要人家要做又要馬兒好又要馬兒不吃草"},{"start":6754.639,"end":6779.053,"text":"那等於是不是委員的定見就是這件事情宣傳推廣政策乾脆不要做了我希望不是這樣那我回應一下剛剛幾位委員的發言翁委員說有些影片你可以拍了可以repeat一直放五年十年都放同一支不是不可以啦那一支要成為這個經典永留傳"},{"start":6780.891,"end":6800.078,"text":"也不是不行但是如果以防詐來講我們為什麼上個會期要通過打詐司法是因為面對所有的新興犯罪所以在對人民宣傳防詐打詐的部分他有新的素材新的犯罪手法需要透過新的"},{"start":6801.765,"end":6825.572,"text":"內容產製去告訴人民所以很難讓政府一個影片可以再用啊用十年用二十年啊其實就所有的廣告界可能很少有人會認同這種觀點啊除非我說那是一個經典老電影可以一直要像真善美將像亂世佳人這樣但是我們在做政策的行銷他追求的不是一個"},{"start":6827.74,"end":6855.655,"text":"經典永留傳的那個價值而是要針對新興的社會動態去做政策的配套然後及時的提供給人民所以我來回應說你需要再去有很多新的產制我基本上是認同的因為犯罪手法是越來越新道高一尺 謀高一丈第二個我也要來反駁一下剛剛提案委員所說的"},{"start":6856.849,"end":6871.624,"text":"那你們做得不夠好你們這些檢察官怎麼這些影片都拍得不夠好你們會拍得好才有問題你們的專業是查案辦案所以拍片宣傳是要委由專業我一直認為這個要讓專業的人去做"},{"start":6874.434,"end":6901.076,"text":"我過去在教育文化部門就算是文化部就算是文化部都是藝術家出身很多可是文化部的很多的影片的產製也是要透過專家去處理那透過專家去處理他就需要費用他就需要合理的資源的投入否則他就是一個惡性循環你不花必要的支出去委請更專業的團隊你怎麼會拍出好的宣傳影片"},{"start":6901.823,"end":6909.71,"text":"那現在委員做的就是剛好是足以完全閹割了讓你們可以去往好的方向去前進的預算的作為"},{"start":6911.089,"end":6938.998,"text":"所以再次希望我知道這個在黨委員可能對這筆預算已經是非常明確的態度就是要大砍大山一個提了是砍了幾乎一半一個是砍了三分之二那我希望如果是預算這樣的處理我當然認為我反對這樣好我如果對於這樣一樣我當然覺得要保留大家再來討論但是真的"},{"start":6941.055,"end":6961.43,"text":"又要馬而好 又要馬而不吃草我覺得請提案的委員多多來思考我們都希望你們做 要做好那就是給支持 給資源那做不好的 當然要改進但是你不給他錢做 他就永遠不會好好 這是我的觀點那跟大家再做一下對話那個 鍾昭偉 鍾昭偉好 謝謝"},{"start":6968.966,"end":6994.774,"text":"因為關於媒體的政策宣導長期以來在政府部門就是一個我們很關切的但是要把問題的重點放在放對地方媒體是對民眾宣導民眾宣導他在政策上他扮演的是對政策瞭解不是代表民眾去執行政策舉例來講我們平常要做防火宣導"},{"start":6995.953,"end":7016.293,"text":"但是會不會因為發生了縱火案 可能是來自於相關安檢機關的疏失那我們就說 喔 那發生了縱火案 引起社會觀瞻 那死傷呢 社會震撼所以呢 我們就把相關的防火宣導給拿掉了 是這樣的邏輯嗎"},{"start":7018.843,"end":7047.717,"text":"過去我們很重視食品安全什麼西部特羅啦 瘦肉精啦什麼米酸菌啦發生了食物中毒我們就覺得 到底是哪個環節出問題當我們在追查這些不管是消防安全的漏洞或者是食品安全的漏洞不管是在哪個地方發生問題釀成社會矚目的一些傷亡那我們所要做的就是去查清楚"},{"start":7048.477,"end":7067.197,"text":"這在執行上哪個環節出了問題針對那個問題來下手而不是說發生了縱火案我們就刪消防宣導的預算發生了食品安全的中毒事件我們就把所有的食品安全的宣導把它拿掉應該不是這個意思吧"},{"start":7068.174,"end":7085.473,"text":"所以我們對於所謂的業務宣導在我們行政機關上它扮演的是讓民眾理解政府的作為民眾可以配合但不是把這個當作是政府行政施政的主力"},{"start":7086.514,"end":7112.734,"text":"所以一旦發生了重大治安事件我們應該去檢討的是在這個過程當中相關的執行機關有沒有缺失而不是反過來說因為發生了這些行政上或者說重大的事件上當我們在進行行政上的要求改進的同時我們把對於民眾呼籲要來得悉我們在執行的政策的這些相關的作為就予以給它簡列"},{"start":7114.435,"end":7136.353,"text":"給他刪減我可以理解我們預算的簡略是指那個宣導本身是我應該改進的之處我在上一輪的發言也對於政府在進行媒體政策或者業務宣導的執行手段上我也要求行政機關應該注意到常見的缺失去改進那是純粹就媒體採購跟政策宣傳上"},{"start":7139.375,"end":7167.028,"text":"的部分但我不是因為說因為你這個做不好導致於哪些重大治安事件發生這個兩者之間的因果關聯應該要釐清治安事件的發生應如何檢討改善是一回事那我們在呼籲民眾配合政府維護社會治安我們維持法治社會的這些宣導本身的宣導部分的手段哪些地方做不好我們要求這樣才是正辦的而不是把兩件事情"},{"start":7168.188,"end":7194.816,"text":"連結在一起做不當連結然後呢好像是用減業預算後另外那個事情就能夠辦好難道我們把消防宣導的預算與減業那我們就會相信社會上不會有火警的發生嗎這個事情是完全兩回事我還是呼籲我們這個案子的審查就目前的媒體政策的執行手段上有應該經驗的地方我們來提出檢討以上"},{"start":7196.852,"end":7204.611,"text":"好吧 那機關這邊是否機關要回應不好意思 還有陳委不好意思 不好意思"},{"start":7205.629,"end":7228.648,"text":"好 謝謝主席那對於我們現在在討論的這個預算媒體政策及業務宣導費的部分那剛剛我們部長也有講去年度的質詢率已經超過九成以上那基本上我相信都有基本的一個成效那以現在這種資訊發達的時代其實宣傳真的很重要"},{"start":7233.712,"end":7252.217,"text":"那我看到我們這一次是內容其中包括這個對打詐還有毒品還有反賄權方面這個都對於這個現階段在宣傳方面我們法務部我覺得反而是要更加去精進相關的這種宣傳的這種量能"},{"start":7256.379,"end":7262.547,"text":"讓民眾更知道相關的這些資訊如何來防堵被詐騙還是這些毒品的問題還是會選"},{"start":7266.417,"end":7288.385,"text":"在影片的製作方面我覺得應該是要不斷的推陳出新讓民眾有一種新奇的感覺民眾才會想要去點閱去看我覺得現在應該是這樣子因為現在的人我相信可能很多的資訊都是從手機上去獲取的"},{"start":7289.125,"end":7316.527,"text":"所以我剛剛看了一下我們在網路上的這些平台能夠去佈建許多的這些新的這種影片的話我相信對於要防堵相關的這些問題一定會有很好的一個成效我想也跟我們法務部這邊分享一下我昨天遇到了一個比較新的一個那個我們的通訊軟體被"},{"start":7318.955,"end":7341.077,"text":"這個木馬城市的這個問題給侵入導致這個民眾被騙他是透過一個連結的方式跟你講說要確認你的身份那結果民眾不知道就把他按進去直接就木馬城市就植入在手機裡面不到一個小時他的朋友"},{"start":7342.196,"end":7354.064,"text":"他的朋友收到他的那個通訊軟體的通知要跟他借錢結果他不是傳一個他傳很多個所以這種機率讓被詐騙的人"},{"start":7356.384,"end":7374.672,"text":"被詐騙的可能提升所以在昨天的一整天他的自己的手機內的朋友就好幾個被騙了當然金額或許不是很大可是我相信這個也是在打詐的過程裡面我們希望說能夠透過我們這個宣傳的方式可以讓民眾提高警覺"},{"start":7375.792,"end":7399.08,"text":"避免被騙那現在新興的毒品也很多啊有一些不知道的這個民眾可能在這種不知道包裝的情況之下或是不認識毒品的情況之下或許也會不小心去觸碰到毒品所以這個部分也是希望能夠透過我們法務部的相關影片來跟民眾這個告知那"},{"start":7400.222,"end":7428.887,"text":"反賄選的部分我相信從以前到現在我們一直三聲五令一直在提醒民眾不管買票賣票這個行為我相信大家都非常的厭惡那要怎麼去杜絕我希望說我們還是要讓民眾去了解到底這個買票跟賣票所會導致的這個前因後果甚至未來會危害到我們民眾什麼情形也可以透過影片去說明所以我還是"},{"start":7430.269,"end":7452.672,"text":"很希望我們這筆預算能夠順利通過讓法務部落實去質詢也可以提高相關的民眾對於影片的興趣能夠多多的去點閱也可以去分享我覺得這才能夠達到實際的效果以上黃偉剛剛有舉手是不是也要發言"},{"start":7454.744,"end":7480.539,"text":"其實我在第一輪發言的時候我已經說過了不過剛剛有一些委員有指教簡短的回應一下第一個事情是說騙子要找專業要有技術的拍我沒有反對啊去年前年都有給錢拍啊都是找專業的啊都找有技術的啊每年都花了一千多萬啊問題是什麼"},{"start":7484.141,"end":7500.627,"text":"按照這樣的說法的確是找專業的啊找有技術的拍啊那拍出來就慘不能賭嘛所以現在立法院在審預算是看到前面拍出來的片子已經慘不能賭了為了鼓勵法務部繼續給錢繼續慘不能賭我不知道這個邏輯在哪裡啊第二個我剛剛也說啦"},{"start":7510.811,"end":7531.681,"text":"法務部前的執行率執行的很有效率啊我在質疑的是效果啊為什麼沒有效果你拍出來的東西跟社會現實脫節嘛大家看這個官樣的文章大內宣 插資抹粉大家當然看不下去啊就看不下去點閱率才會差嘛這麼簡單的道理"},{"start":7541.53,"end":7564.159,"text":"你專注媒體宣傳來講那不是在看你過去多努力啊也不是在看你找什麼專業的人來啊媒體宣傳就看一件事啊你宣傳的效果如何嘛宣傳的效果就爛啊為什麼宣傳的效果爛那拍的內容大家看不下去嘛毫無意義啊聽你們在那邊自追自擂現實上就不是這樣啊"},{"start":7571.144,"end":7574.507,"text":"所以大家看不下去啊這道理非常簡單啊好 翁委員請問那個法務部請問部長你們法務部現在有多少員工你們所屬的員工"},{"start":7592.038,"end":7619.308,"text":"就是包含就是你們說就是包含主管機關下面的二三級對全部的話有上萬人嗎有上萬人嗎我先要講就是說其實你們這些宣導影片呢就連你們自己的員工也不捧場如果說你們未來自己的員工每個人都是讓他們上去看然後讓他們去分享那個宣傳效益可能都比透過媒體的宣傳要好我先要講就是說我還是我並不反對行政機關"},{"start":7621.169,"end":7637.755,"text":"要做業務宣導可是業務宣導也要有成效而且如果說像你們拍花了些錢然後拍這些影片你們底下的員工檢察官這個相關的這個裡面防務部的"},{"start":7638.835,"end":7665.533,"text":"這些公務員們都不知道這樣的影片那難怪就說為什麼宣傳效果不好對然後我的想法就是說在去年13年就是今年你們拍的影片其實到下一年度都還可以用固然說可能詐騙手法日新月異可是呢就整個宣導的本質是應該是是不變的大家要對於這個很多的這個詐騙要有警覺心然後再說話說回來"},{"start":7669.936,"end":7691.228,"text":"重要的職責是要去抓詐騙會選也是一樣這才是你們重要的任務所以就宣導這個事情我個人還是認為你們這一次可以就你們之前先去整體檢討你們哪些影片是要再做強力宣傳的"},{"start":7692.048,"end":7716.453,"text":"那麼至於就是在媒體電視上面的這個宣傳效果也可以一併做檢討在YT或是在你們自己的社群平台裡面能夠由你們自己的員工自己去負責去經營的那麼就自己做那麼看起來你們現在花錢委外宣傳效果也不好所以我這邊還是認為還是有必要要簡列了那因為這個案子也談了蠻久的是不是到時候大家可以"},{"start":7717.389,"end":7743.017,"text":"就做個結論好那因為今天有一百多萬那所以說時間上面我覺得會很趕那是不是說既然大家沒有共識那就把它保留好好我保留最後一個發言好再講一下我同意保留但我希望這個道理講一下這個法務部的人員不應當下班之後檢察官辦案還要去為自己的影片按讚這個很奇怪啦"},{"start":7743.817,"end":7769.036,"text":"那我的理解所謂的媒體宣傳跟所謂的推廣行銷也不必然只是社群上的YouTube社群上你還有很多要去進行業務宣導各種方式但不要流入一個迷思都不要流入流量的迷思我們做政策宣導不是在追求流量"},{"start":7770.134,"end":7786.862,"text":"好嗎我是很怕這個我一定要更正一下如果說以後你們回去要求所有的各集同仁回去不只下班要按讚自己家人來按讚這種沖流量不是這個意思好我覺得這個還是要講清楚那這個預算就保留好謝謝"},{"start":7788.363,"end":7810.431,"text":"那現在因為時間的關係我想說我們這個第一二案我們就保留宋協商那我們繼續處理第一幕一般行政第二案號第三案之第十案那請問一下這樣子第三案跟第四案因為有改過主決議嘛那是不是請問一下機關有沒有意見第三案跟第四案"},{"start":7812.521,"end":7838.642,"text":"還有第10案3、4、10這三個已經溝通完畢了嘛那請問一下機關如果沒有意見的話那我們是不是3、4、10是依照修正後的組決議通過同意嗎各位好同意好那我們就直接處理第5案到第9案第一幕的一般行政那請問一下提案的黃國昌有沒有要補充"},{"start":7840.401,"end":7864.239,"text":"我說明一下上次質詢的時候已經有講過了這個所謂的辦理部外聯繫考察及新聞發布等相關經費其實我一開始的時候我完全不懂做這個要編經費幹嘛你要開記者會就開記者會啊你要編經費要做什麼結果搞了半天是在經營媒體關係"},{"start":7868.007,"end":7894.812,"text":"現在連基層的檢察官都在破口大罵請最高檢察署的開課教授一下要怎麼經營媒體關係啊就經營媒體關係的方式是什麼帶出去吃吃喝喝過夜整個考察的行程我上次已經貼給部長看啊看完了以後部長說我們要利用不同的場合不同的機會"},{"start":7896.305,"end":7898.426,"text":"來做溝通來做宣導事實上那個行程看出來在高鐵站辦簡報為什麼在高鐵站辦簡報等車的時間混一混真正的時間是要出去吃喝玩樂堂堂的法務部有必要透過這樣的方式去經營媒體關係"},{"start":7925.774,"end":7953.303,"text":"負責對外發言的鄉業檢察官該讓社會大眾知道的就發新聞稿啊不該讓社會大眾知道的就不要處理啊經營媒體關係經營成什麼樣子我之前講過啦大家對於詐騙是深惡痛絕啊我那時候在追IMB的案子我是一個公民的身份"},{"start":7954.943,"end":7983.036,"text":"我沒有拿任何公家的資源我幫被害人在討公道在追IMB詐騙集團的案子我姑且不論啊你們之前IMB的案子睡了多久睡了多久人家2016年2017年就開始檢舉啦案子辦到不見欸搞了半天原來是因為曾耀峰啊"},{"start":7984.878,"end":7989.72,"text":"哇 那個政治關係之好啊看得讓人眼花繚亂啦還免費提供陳厚破蔡英文2020年選總統在宜蘭後援會那都沒收錢捏辦一個案子 辦得哩哩啦啦連給陳厚破開的那台車子"},{"start":8011.294,"end":8037.94,"text":"要你們去找還找不到最後還是我派人去找通報你們台北地檢署才知道車在哪拿被害人騙來的錢買的洋酒也是一樣結果我帶秘密證人去台北地檢署作證我多怕那個秘密證人的身份被洩露我知道得那麼清楚知道曾耀峰在選舉的期間"},{"start":8040.442,"end":8044.186,"text":"開著車子去哪些政治人物那邊送錢知道這種資訊的有多少知道從澳闊開的那台車子撞到人家車子當場落跑打電話給曾耀峰叫他找人來頂替"},{"start":8066.235,"end":8070.639,"text":"結果我帶了個秘密證人去台北地檢署出來靖州刊的獨家內容那獨家內容還是在幫陳歐珀洗地的你們法務部是這樣在經營媒體關係喔要經營什麼媒體關係直來直往直到而行就好了"},{"start":8094.258,"end":8096.52,"text":"所以這一項我提議全三因為第九案是我提的啦那第九案主要就是我認為說有關法治跟兩公約"},{"start":8113.62,"end":8136.14,"text":"媒體的宣傳費用從112年到現在其實它漲幅高達77.6%那如果說法務部認為說觀看的人數眾多那為什麼還要漲77那如果觀看的效果不佳那為什麼還要漲77那一樣嘛如果認為看的人多那也不用漲那如果沒有人看那你編這個幹嘛"},{"start":8137.441,"end":8159.534,"text":"法務部還有太多事情需要用到錢所以這個部分我覺得有我的提案說明你問我我講完嘛 等我講完好不好那這個部分我是認為這個部分"},{"start":8165.99,"end":8191.305,"text":"有一點就是我希望能夠了解啦就是到底這段時間所推動的這個部分他有什麼樣明顯的作為或是有什麼樣的成效或相關的研習啦課程等等的那就回到我今天開會前因為剛剛人數不夠那開會前我有提到因為我這次有提很多案子但是法務部都都沒有派人來跟我就是談論這個部分"},{"start":8193.346,"end":8215.697,"text":"那我覺得這可能對立法院也不是很尊重那我還是希望說法務部能夠趕快跟我們溝通一下我們有意見的地方不是說我們一定什麼東西都要刪除或保留但是至少要讓我們知道那個效果怎麼樣或是你有這個作為的原因是什麼那我們才能夠知道說這個預算到底該留還是不該留那鍾委員"},{"start":8218.031,"end":8240.838,"text":"謝謝主席,因為剛剛主席以提案人身份在說明,我怕主席沒有注意到,先請求發言權我想對於,現在討論的是第五案到第九案,剛剛分別有兩位提案委員做了說明那不好意思,首先對於剛剛主席的發言,我有點,提案人的說明有點驚訝如果成效不髒,那憑什麼要調高預算?如果成效很好,那就更不需要調高預算了"},{"start":8241.735,"end":8265.811,"text":"那我覺得這樣的邏輯真的要注意一下如果現在一般的上班族如果遇到老闆面對他加薪的時候如果表現很好付你這個薪水又值夠啦如果表現不好幹嘛要加薪水所以我覺得這個邏輯用在預算審查上還不是說完全不對但是我規格的我們會具體來討論到底是哪個部分成效不彰可以透過預算審查來加以要求"},{"start":8266.371,"end":8286.91,"text":"那至於剛剛有委員提到 我看到我們的預算書第50頁大概就講的就是這個所謂的研討暨進修業務那麼他寫在說明欄的括號6 第三點的括號6辦理部外聯繫考察及新聞發布等相關經費1476000元 就是1476000元"},{"start":8290.424,"end":8302.204,"text":"那當然因為後面還有其他的包括辦理所謂的新聞語情匯報及多媒體簡報業務53萬元那我相信做一個政府的"},{"start":8303.442,"end":8330.204,"text":"二級機關那麼他本身就有相當多他要跟透過媒體來跟民眾發布的那我個人也好奇因為提案委員所提到的說因為他這裡面的說明是部外聯繫考察及新聞發布但是在委員的提案說明變成是招待媒體吃喝玩樂入住高檔飯店享用無菜單料理喝酒歡唱"},{"start":8330.925,"end":8343.839,"text":"那因為這樣的內容的確如果確有實情但是我們希望那個照片有人說照片能說話其實我們現在都很知道一張照片要表達一個情境那是不是有足夠的"},{"start":8345.396,"end":8369.307,"text":"支撐這些描述如果真有這些 那麼法務部的政風要去調查因為我們媒體現在都潔身示愛包括我們目前立法院所有的媒體的從業人員其實呢 他們都是以新聞工作為主會來跟包括委員接觸 跟委員的助理接觸其實也都是基於新聞採訪"},{"start":8370.487,"end":8387.367,"text":"至於私下他們有因為認識了要去做一些聯誼那也是私下的事情但是如果用公務預算支出那一般來講不管我是在作為立法委員也好或者說我過去在機關服務也好我們通常都是在記者節"},{"start":8388.308,"end":8407.024,"text":"因為記者本身公會有他們的活動我們就類似參加各種行業的公會的活動我們都會去參與有時候也會有一些制證紀念品這樣的行為我不曉得這樣的預算內容是在做這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":8408.245,"end":8417.79,"text":"那至於說後面還有一個辦理第七項辦理立法院各委員會自所屬機關考察聯繫協調等業務52萬元按兩個會期每個會期26萬元那我就更緊張了如果同樣的描述"},{"start":8425.054,"end":8447.08,"text":"部外聯繫考察新聞發布跟所謂的各委員會到各所屬各機關考察聯繫協調等業務萬一也因為被形容成吃喝玩樂入住高檔飯店享用無菜單料理喝酒歡唱那我想啊我們身為立法委員去參與考察的時候我們都要很謹慎那麼部會他們所致用的預算"},{"start":8447.76,"end":8464.208,"text":"我們要當心在當下中午吃飯的時候端杯舉個飲料會不會就被人家拍照說我們立法委員跟考察的部會在那邊喝酒歡唱等等等的事情所以我真的覺得有這樣的面對這樣的一個指摘啊"},{"start":8464.728,"end":8480.388,"text":"其實呢我們法務部在執行相關預算的時候要很清楚我首先要再強調現在我們新一代的媒體的從業人員都很洁身自愛絕對不是我們印象中過去以前可能曾經有過的類似用所謂的吃吃喝喝"},{"start":8480.968,"end":8504.509,"text":"就能夠去影響他們的新聞報導方向或許過去也不多但是偶有聽聞但是過去的那種印象如果要套用在現在的媒體同業人員身上我覺得不宜不會重有這樣的想法也不應該最後有沒有這樣的事實應該要查明不然的話你們第六項辦理這些聯繫會被這樣的指摘那未來我們"},{"start":8505.229,"end":8534.449,"text":"立法院各委員會到法務部的所屬機關去進行考察我們也很擔心被冠以這樣的一個只需物有的莫須有的一些扭曲的形象我們也很擔心所以這個務必要說明清楚 以上好 黃委員好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員的指教喔剛剛我聽到鍾嘉斌委員說只需物有莫須有其實我質詢的時候就已經質詢過了是不是只需物有莫須有 來我們先看一下"},{"start":8537.673,"end":8561.019,"text":"113年就是2024年啊參訪宜蘭地區司法機關活動行程表早上9點50到11點啊出發11點到下午2點業務簡報及午餐臨美球場會議室臨美球場就是礁溪臨美高爾夫球場邊吃飯邊簡報結束了以後下午2點"},{"start":8565.97,"end":8587.237,"text":"去金車水技水產養訓去看生技水產養殖研發中心我是不曉得跟法務部有什麼關係啦在結束以後前往礁溪飯店下午四點以後自由活動一路到晚上 沒了"},{"start":8588.57,"end":8613.975,"text":"入住交西林美那邊的飯店接下來以後呢前往國際傳統藝術中心參訪國際傳統藝術中心早上去國際傳統藝術中心玩中午去吃午餐吃午餐下午去哪裡去雅典果子工廠參訪雅典果子工廠然後最後呢就解散回來了這樣的行程"},{"start":8617.301,"end":8645.328,"text":"我說是吃喝玩樂公不公道社會大眾有一把尺嘛如果納稅的人覺得我們法務部這樣錢這樣花要增進媒體關係加強業務宣導那我今天提案刪這筆預算受傷的人是我大部分的公民都覺得鍾嘉賓講得很有道理啊這個錢不要刪啊那我刪了受傷的是我嘛但我的立場很清楚啊"},{"start":8646.55,"end":8669.032,"text":"你搞這什麼東西啊全三這就是我的立場好那這樣子就是案號五到九那這部分請問一下機關有沒有要回應其實第五案的這個一個費用最主要的"},{"start":8671.15,"end":8694.142,"text":"還是新聞發布記者會的招待還有記者室的一個修繕我想這個是有關於媒體的這部分的一個費用的一個對外的一個支付那這個預算的一個編制最主要那當然我也有提到就是那個記者司法記者參訪這部分那這部分事實上是佔比是以去年度去年是21萬21萬這個一個"},{"start":8697.504,"end":8709.189,"text":"所以這個在占比事實上不是全數說是用來用來做一個媒體的一個參訪那其實媒體參訪他其實他有到實際上的一個一個效果因為是"},{"start":8711.231,"end":8726.856,"text":"實地上的一個透過實地的一個方式跟交流可以讓媒體了解這個業務的推動那我想這個不是說我們單純的發新聞稿或這樣的可以達到效果用實地的參法去做給媒體更了解我們業務推動的一個情形那當然這個"},{"start":8729.857,"end":8740.822,"text":"這個有些安排其他行政我想這個是一個附帶最主要還是要做一個一個實地一個參訪那做以上的一個補充我每次建議說這部分是不是還是要多支持黃委員"},{"start":8745.441,"end":8771.625,"text":"我本來想保留就算了啦剛剛我聽部長這樣講說最主要的是實地參訪你可不可以具體說明一下你們去年去宜蘭的實地參訪是去參訪什麼去去參訪雅果子工廠還是去參訪宜蘭傳統藝術中心還是去參訪江西臨美高爾夫球場還是去參訪網工手作無菜單料理你到底參訪什麼啊我看不懂啊"},{"start":8773.442,"end":8791.441,"text":"啊你作為一個法務部部長我客觀的行程都唸出來給你聽了你還繼續的用麥克風跟全國人民講所以我們在做實地參訪其他都是附隨的沒有喔其他的才是主要的那你到底參訪了什麼可以跟大家說明一下嗎第二點"},{"start":8792.383,"end":8818.753,"text":"那你說啊這裡面一百多萬參訪只有花二十幾萬沒有關係啊我是很講道理的人我給法務部機會反正這個案子要保留正式處理以前把二零二四年這一百多萬花到什麼地方去一筆一筆細項交上來合理的我會幫你們留下來其他的全部刪除我給法務部機會"},{"start":8822.585,"end":8841.956,"text":"好那這樣子的話那我想說就五到九案大家意見如果不一致我們就予以保留好那第一幕一般行政提案案號第三案至第十案第三四十案改為主決議"},{"start":8843.53,"end":8863.307,"text":"那第五到九案保留送協商那我們接著處理第二幕法務行政提案案號第十一案至第三十一案那我們請提案人黃委員您有要說明嗎出國考察的費用台灣民眾黨黨團的立場在這個會期就是嚴審"},{"start":8867.813,"end":8880.977,"text":"就是嚴審那法務部每一年都有派員出國的計畫派員出國的計畫去年是編了572萬今年編到799萬去年572萬的效果在哪裡我們還沒有看到今年就大幅膨脹到799萬我完全不曉得它的必要性跟正當性在哪裡"},{"start":8897.86,"end":8914.715,"text":"2024年說因應高齡社會的監護制度與相關身份及財產法制派日本考察我把考察報告看完了然後呢然後呢法務部目前是對於監護制度"},{"start":8916.437,"end":8936.332,"text":"去日本考察完回來了以後然後呢我們有看到然後啊去日本看完了還不夠今年要繼續去哪裡去韓國日本韓國看完了是後年要去哪裡去美國大後年去加拿大再往後去歐洲看一看"},{"start":8939.679,"end":8948.001,"text":"所以針對有關於派員出國考察799萬6千元刪除600萬元那請問翁委員好針對那個防護部出國考察的費用那麼這次114年編列799萬那本席這邊是建議要"},{"start":8970.19,"end":8980.492,"text":"簡列200萬那主要的原因也是我看到了這個法務部的出國報告因為我們有查詢的公務出國報告資訊網然後以計畫主辦機關是法務部我們來進行查詢從2021年到2024年的年底那搜尋了只有26筆的報告資料可是呢你們在每一年的預算書從110年到122年這三年的這個當時所編列的這個預算"},{"start":8999.116,"end":9027.487,"text":"加起來有70項然後實際最後這三年的出國報告計劃只有16項所以到底你們執行的狀況是怎麼樣那麼為什麼你們都編列了很多的這個出國的預算計劃可是實際上我們看到的這個出國報告計劃卻沒有那麼多還是說是放在什麼地方讓我們不是很清楚的可以知道你們的出國報告計劃的執行情況那麼另外"},{"start":9029.452,"end":9046.705,"text":"我們有比較你們在113年跟114年的訪問派員的出國計劃其中有一個叫歐洲司法網路會議歐洲司法網路會議這三年都有派員出席可是這明明就是一個網路會議"},{"start":9049.364,"end":9062.237,"text":"還是說你們是翻譯有問題叫司法網絡嗎還是司法網絡如果說它是網絡會議為什麼要派員出國那麼雖然而且夏季冬季都有對這個部分的話其實可能要請你們要"},{"start":9063.953,"end":9088.479,"text":"可是你們在自己的出國計畫是寫歐洲司法網路會議所以這到底是個什麼會議這個不是很清楚另外就是你們112年編列到APEC的反貪腐的即透明化工作小組會議當時只有編3萬1千多但到114年卻要暴增到18萬兩年暴增六倍不知道是不是合理那麼同時"},{"start":9091.429,"end":9118.203,"text":"剛剛有講到了考察高齡化監護制度剛剛黃委員有說你們是去日本那去了日本之後呢考察回來情況怎麼樣你們下年度要再去韓國那麼這個地方的話可能都要請你們一併說明謝謝那另外還有提案人我們先讓提案人說明好不好就是鍾嘉斌委員有提案那陳俊文也有提案請問一下兩位有沒有要補充說明"},{"start":9119.633,"end":9146.17,"text":"好 陳委員陳委員有沒有要補充說明沒有喔 因為你們的部分是改那個主決議所以就不用嘛就不用嘛好 那那個中昭委這邊也不用嘛好 謝謝那另外還有那個羅委員你的部分有沒有要補充說明你的部分應該是第29案還有第幾"},{"start":9149.465,"end":9150.246,"text":"15 15也有15然後21還有一個29對一起說"},{"start":9160.345,"end":9178.952,"text":"首先在15案那我們這邊是希望凍結這個預算1200萬那主要是也是還是一樣就是對法務部一個督促因為事實上大家知道最近這棄保潛逃的問題是甚受民眾關注那"},{"start":9180.252,"end":9203.093,"text":"我們在法務行政底下包括規劃檢查制度督導檢查業務等等我希望能夠勉勵法務部在棄保潛逃是兩個地方上你們實際上是沒有很明確的作為讓我覺得需要再改進第一個當然就是說不管是陳啟玉也好或者是說林秉文也好他所涉及的棄保潛逃的這個相關的問題你會發現"},{"start":9206.738,"end":9223.569,"text":"我們的法務部不能夠防範重大嫌犯潛逃然後潛逃後也沒有辦法用最近的照片像陳啟玉就是這樣來方便幾名指認辨識這些在督導上的一些缺漏我覺得法務部要再檢討"},{"start":9224.73,"end":9249.564,"text":"那第二個就是說也可以看到就是說基本上我們會發現事實上在棄保檢討的法制的立法工作上我覺得法務部基本上簡直是擺案兩個字來形容完全沒有任何的作為搞到最後行政院也沒有版本變成是還要我們立法委員來去幫忙來去補這個法制上的漏洞那我們在審查過程當中其實我也看到"},{"start":9250.484,"end":9275.231,"text":"我們那個民進黨委員 我們莊委員也講到說你們不能當評論員啊他說這個做法好像不好 那個做法不好那可是實際上你們也沒拿出做法那明明司法 妨害那個司法公正罪也好 棄保檢討也好都是司法國師會議裡面當中的結論那為什麼說今天法務部的作為我覺得是有待加強了那我就繼續講17案繼續講嘛 OK好什麼"},{"start":9280.081,"end":9291.17,"text":"那17案其實是另外一個我覺得今天對法務部我要表達我的不滿的意見就是我們現在的所謂的偵查不公開變成了偵查大公開"},{"start":9292.27,"end":9319.586,"text":"所以在於辦理法務事務業務商業務費當中這個部分那我是希望能夠凍結預算10%那能夠請這個法務部向司法法治委員會提出專案報告同意或使得動之那這個我跟部長已經交流過非常久但我也可以提讓部長你今天說真的你可能你也只能這樣講而已"},{"start":9320.37,"end":9332.256,"text":"但是我真的看到我們在偵查不公開這件事情上荒腔走板到我覺得無言以對我覺得法務部都無言以對那我舉幾個例子就是說你會看到"},{"start":9334.068,"end":9350.822,"text":"這個偵查不公開本來就是一個無罪推定跟保障被告權利的重要制度根本就形同虛設那麼我們在2019到2023年平均每年檢討偵查不公開是1450件可是2024年的上半年"},{"start":9351.963,"end":9373.719,"text":"事實上已經被大家提出來有可能違反偵查不公開有這樣的一個之餘的案件數是高達2035件半年內的數字超過全年簡直可以稱爲偵查亂公開元年而從2019年到現在將近1萬件的偵查不公開的案件只有16個人受到行政懲處比例只有0.17%"},{"start":9376.201,"end":9397.638,"text":"那我再多次在質詢法務部的時候我都覺得部長都是一個萬用招對我啊都說通通不是檢察官放的就結束啦那我常在講一件事情偵查部公開部長也承認他是涉及泄密罪是犯罪問題已經是犯罪的問題了那犯罪偵防這個法務部也是與有折焉嘛"},{"start":9398.439,"end":9419.525,"text":"那就像說今天假設竊盜案件 詐騙案件 橫行那我也不可能說今天問部長說奇怪了 竊盜案件 詐騙案件那麼多結果呢 一萬件 最後只有0.17%的案件有處理然後部長跟我講一句說不是檢察官偷的 也不是檢察官詐騙的"},{"start":9420.825,"end":9444.871,"text":"那難道就能夠交代今天普遍泛濫的詐騙問題嗎不可能嘛但是我想說今天很明顯全國老百姓只要有眼睛還長眼睛甚至在野黨委員或是我們今天行政官員偵查大公開就是鐵針針的事實幾乎在每個案件上的偵查都大公開所以我今天也是覺得說"},{"start":9446.516,"end":9470.142,"text":"在法務部的預算上當然法務部作為犯罪的所謂的一個我們的所謂的守門員就是來為我們治安把關非常重要的一環他當然是預算是需要啦可是我還是希望透過不管是用凍結的方式用刪減的方式希望法務部真的是再加把勁那另外再來是我講那個29案是要到29了嗎OK 29"},{"start":9477.028,"end":9499.839,"text":"二九案的話也是針對這個法務行政向下辦理國際及兩岸事務法律事務的業務費國外旅費的這個編列359萬那我這邊是認為說實際上沒有看到這個所謂的非常強的必要性這個部分我覺得的事宜不夠清楚所以我認為說這個預算應該要凍結30%以上"},{"start":9504.412,"end":9527.518,"text":"中召委跟吳委員稍微等一下我先問完那個提案的部分因為還有一個第30案齁因為那個林思敏委員沒有來但是那個翁委員你有連署那第30案的部分不知道翁委員有沒有要補充不好意思我剛剛忽略了我好像13、14案沒講因為我以為是一個案子那你就一起講我們讓提案委員講完然後我們再讓各位發言"},{"start":9529.538,"end":9545.489,"text":"那麼我剛剛針對第十 我剛剛只講了第十二案然後接下來是第十三案 第十三案呢主要是我們考我有看到就法務部其實編列了一些這個法務行政的費用包含像是要做一些文件的翻譯"},{"start":9546.489,"end":9564.166,"text":"還有購買法學的相關從書、經費以及要辦理各式各樣不同的研習費用那麼在辦理研習特別是在辦理研習經費的部分其實有很多的會議研習的內容是重複的"},{"start":9565.74,"end":9577.726,"text":"其實它可以合併辦理那麼業務有重疊之餘所以我這裡提出來就是就辦理這個相關業務研習的部分原來是編列總共10項編列了206萬那我減列50萬那至於剛剛講的像翻譯的部分因為其實它主要是要翻譯這個FTA出版的洗錢防制相關引件指引文件翻譯費這個部分的話就保護部人才記記了而且現在其實"},{"start":9594.355,"end":9601.747,"text":"用很多的軟體就可以自動翻譯然後你們再去查核再重新再去檢閱所以我認為說這筆108萬的這筆錢是可以節省下來所以全數刪除"},{"start":9610.182,"end":9626.988,"text":"那麼至於在國外的這個旅費的部分總共是編了149萬參加國際檢察官協會年會以及參加美國的州檢察長的協會這個部分的話有重複編列的情形所以就刪減檢察長協會的部分是42萬以上這是第13案那麼至於第14案的部分"},{"start":9637.526,"end":9646.577,"text":"這裡主要是涉及到律師這邊也是與法務行政費用有關"},{"start":9651.84,"end":9655.503,"text":"那麼看到這裡就是這個有關於律師值錢的委外訓練費用編了331萬過高那麼所以在這裡就凍結50萬那避免不當使用而且你們到底訓練些什麼這個其實也必須要說明清楚到底委外細項還有在查會選等等這些沒宣的費用就像本席剛剛所講的有關於這個媒體宣傳的成效也不明也必須要"},{"start":9676.705,"end":9700.893,"text":"提出這個相關預算制用的細目 至於就說捐助像是推展這個法律GU 辦理毒品防治 大學服務社等相關的經費 那麼事實上這些部分這個也不是很清楚 到底當時畢業的狀況怎麼樣 所以我這裡提出來就是就250萬的預算 然後總共就是我"},{"start":9705.441,"end":9727.636,"text":"本席在這裡提出要檢列250萬然後凍結641萬我們病情防護部要兩個月內向市委會這裡提出報告之後才可以解凍好 以上您還有說是林思明委員的是不是對 第三十案我們先把我們先讓那個提案人先說明完之後然後我們大家再來討論第三十案"},{"start":9738.086,"end":9756.999,"text":"第三十案的部分同样是针对法务行政的费用因为这里有编列了补助毒品防治特别收入基金那么可是根据高检署今年所发布的资料里面什么国内卡西同类毒品及大麻石油人口数然是呈现增加的趋势"},{"start":9761.738,"end":9789.816,"text":"那麼此外呢從2018年到2022年間的統計數字也呈現出適用毒品的受刑人的再犯率很高所以由此可見國內毒品氾濫吸毒的犯刑人的戒癮治療以及毒品防治的宣導宣導不彰那麼有改進的必要所以在這裡就是提案凍結預算5%然後兩個月內要求保護部要提出書面報告以上"},{"start":9792.718,"end":9816.444,"text":"因為我自己的部分有四個 那我就很簡單的講一下大概主要也就是說我是19 20 27跟28那主要是第19案大概主要就是大陸地區的旅費因為我看不到詳細的資料也看不到有任何執行的成效我覺得跟大陸地區現在的互動已經狀況沒有很好而且"},{"start":9817.524,"end":9845.353,"text":"雙方也沒有什麼有效的交流所以是這個部分我認為說我需要看到有實際效果或執行的狀況的資料之後我這邊才能夠決定是不是那個要解除這個凍結那二十案也是二十案是國外旅費的部分那一樣當然你們有列了很多像亞太房子洗錢APG等等的這些或是簽署一些司法互助"},{"start":9845.993,"end":9859.846,"text":"但這個部分一樣我也沒有看到詳細的資料那我並不會反對這因為當年我也曾經因為這樣出國去簽了思考互助有協助過所以我知道你們在做什麼但是我要看到資料"},{"start":9861.087,"end":9887.818,"text":"那27案一樣也是大陸地區的那個費用那狀況跟剛剛我說的幾乎一樣另外就是說到底我們現在還有沒有從大陸地區接人犯回來到底還有沒有這樣子做那如果有的話麻煩數據或者是個案給我一下讓我了解那第28案狀況也是一樣因為我們現在雖然說有跟許多國家簽一些司法"},{"start":9888.638,"end":9913.855,"text":"互助的協定但是我們簽署的國家到底跟我們台灣有關法務部所管轄的業務範圍有沒有相關聯譬如說你如果跟一個很根本就跟我國犯罪無關的國家簽了一個司法互助的話那這個東西我們就去考量他的成本跟他我們所得到的效益因為譬如說以跨國詐騙來說好了他主要的"},{"start":9914.535,"end":9938.069,"text":"國家可能也都是在某些特定地區譬如說東歐或者是東南亞的某些國家那我們今天如果所簽的司法互助是對我國打擊犯罪沒有重大關聯性的話那我們是不是需要有類似像這樣的支出那還有就是說我國向他國詢問相關資料的時候他國到底有沒有回應因為這一點我以前"},{"start":9938.709,"end":9962.566,"text":"我以前發過很多文啊 透過外交部出去那幾乎沒有一個國家理過我所以我也要了解一下就我們的司法困境 我可以了解但是麻煩給我一個相關的數據我國司法的困境 我不會怪法務部或檢察官因為這是國家沒有辦法克服的問題那當年我很清楚 那現在我也很清楚所以我只需要說相關的資料那我看完之後 那我當然"},{"start":9963.857,"end":9983.106,"text":"覺得有必要使用的我就不會有任何意見那就回到我剛剛所說因為都沒有人來跟我談過這段時間完全沒有那我覺得你們看不起我沒關係啦那但是既然事情發生了那是不是還是來跟我溝通一下沒有我跟你講各位委員如果他們不理你你會不會開心我覺得一樣啦將心比心啦"},{"start":9984.892,"end":9995.499,"text":"因為我不會亂刪相關的資料為什麼要這個我都有講得很清楚那我們這邊提案的就是補充說明完畢那我們請吳委員然後吳委員完就是中召委"},{"start":9998.652,"end":10026.217,"text":"我是第一我當立委第九年那我過去八年在教育文化委員會所以我對教育文化委員會的預算我非常了解因為每一年審那我今年是第一次在司法法制委員會然後很多東西是重新學習那這個會期又是第一次審預算所以審預算對於每一個立委來講就是把預算書好好讀好這是最基本的功課"},{"start":10027.557,"end":10050.422,"text":"那現在講到出國旅費這件事情剛剛黃國昌委員要把700多萬大筆一砍600萬他就預算書對於出國旅費是從92頁一直到112頁那黃國昌委員的提案他顯然只看了前面兩頁叫做考察的部分"},{"start":10051.331,"end":10071.08,"text":"整個法務部的出國旅費分八大部分第一部分是考察第二部分是定期會議第三部分是參加不定期會議第四部分是參與國際的司法談判第五是給予我們同仁的進修第六是進行相關的研究"},{"start":10071.9,"end":10098.192,"text":"第七是我們也有派人去實習到不同的國家的機構去做實習第八部分是兩岸的司法互助另外用一個chapter來處理所以說要一個一個看黃國昌委員他只看了考察然後就說啊考察你去日本看了這個高齡的這個監護制度啊你做了什麼如果一趟考察回來就可以把一個政策全部改掉"},{"start":10099.44,"end":10118.728,"text":"哇 那這政府還蠻神奇的考察是交流是不斷的去累積然後促成政策所以非常遺憾他只針對他預算書你好歹把這個部分你要砍預算把四十幾頁看完吧你看了第一頁就考察就是自己覺得考察都是在亂花錢都是在吃喝玩樂"},{"start":10119.983,"end":10140.12,"text":"所以就是大筆一山幾乎就把你砍掉所以請大家就事論事所以在考察的部分你們去做了很多交流明年要去韓國要去德國要去歐盟然後還有這個司法精神醫療處遇的交流計畫也是排定的好"},{"start":10140.697,"end":10165.654,"text":"第二部分我真的觉得台湾作为一个在外交上非常弱势的国家我们要想方设法让所有的政策所有的部门都可以带着这个国家去打国际杯就是透过国际的交流在司法的部分我们透过国际的合作透过国际的跨国性的犯罪我们一起来加入我们来作为一个有效的国际犯罪侦办"},{"start":10166.394,"end":10189.566,"text":"司法互助的貢獻者這是我們的責任這是我們的使命所以我看到你們的定期會議我非常支持啊定期會議的部分我們除了要定期參加國際檢察官協會的年會我們除了要參加尤其洗錢洗錢這是現在跨國犯罪大家都強化的所以在洗錢我們加入這個APG"},{"start":10190.766,"end":10217.472,"text":"亞太房治洗錢組織我們每年都要去與會然後要去報告要去交流要去互相交換我們的這個金融洗錢犯罪相關的作為那這些東西我認為我們都應當支持啊我們要去參加WTO的諮商會議因為智慧財產權的很多法律上的徵送我們要跟國際接軌對不對然後呢這是"},{"start":10219.079,"end":10247.873,"text":"在定期會議的部分定期會議一定要支持因為在每一個國際長年舉辦的司法相關的組織裡頭我們要扮演重要的角色一定要長年參與我過去在教育文化部門我最在乎文化部因為我們的外交是弱勢我們可以參加聯合國UNESCO向下的各個博物館的組織各個有形文化資產無形文化資產的組織我們每年要想方設法去加入去與會"},{"start":10249.941,"end":10253.647,"text":"這個是定期會議非定期會議的部分呢"},{"start":10255.02,"end":10282.907,"text":"非定期會議的部分更多了我們可以去練習參與很多的不定期會議也特別跟渥小林委員報告您剛剛在說的這個EJN歐洲司法網絡會議它是European Judicial NetworkNetwork不是網路是那個國家之間的網絡會議然後是透過這個會議我特別去查了"},{"start":10284.683,"end":10302.817,"text":"1998年成立正式運作的歐盟第一個為了司法合作而建立的機制台灣在2016年正式來出任EJN的聯繫窗口但因為我們跟歐盟的關係要再持續的努力所以我們就強力的每年都要來參與它的運作"},{"start":10305.003,"end":10333.379,"text":"所以在不定期會議除了剛剛被翁委員把網路誤以為是網路會議所以不用出國這個會議之外還有APEC反貪腐及透明化工作小組這都是我們重點的工作然後當然亞太防治洗錢組織的不定期會議我們要定期參與第三大類叫做談判國際的談判對於司法互助引渡或是遣送受刑人的條約協定的談判我們定期都要做"},{"start":10334.355,"end":10352.191,"text":"所以出國旅費很大一部分在這些談判然後呢出國費用還包括進修包括研究如果委員們有詳讀預算書就不會只讀了第一頁然後把所有的出國旅費打成就是出國考察一項而已"},{"start":10353.032,"end":10370.721,"text":"我一定要講這麼多的定期組織的會議不定期的國際會議都是強化台灣作為一個司法國際性的司法互助的貢獻者我們要承擔的責任好最後一個剛剛因為昭偉有提到這個兩岸兩岸的交流是112頁有所列"},{"start":10375.438,"end":10399.697,"text":"那主要的工作是兩岸共同打擊毒品電信詐騙人口販運金融犯罪等具體案件合作的機制大概在這個脈絡之下我們要去兩岸的司法互助司法部的工作會談或者是在香港澳門洽談司法互助業務跨國移交受刑人的努力洽談這些部分所以在112頁"},{"start":10401.758,"end":10422.631,"text":"如果召委認為資料不夠完整你們可以去提供但是我想兩岸在犯罪的合作不管政治立場如何我們都要一起在司法互助的部分兩岸共同來努力所以我說了這一些時間希望委員在提案處理預算的時候真的不要看著後面的開啟"},{"start":10424.625,"end":10442.02,"text":"整個考察明明包含定期會議不定期國際會議談判進修研究實習跟兩岸的交流然後把它莫須有的打成考察考察考察好像都很不正當都在玩考察帶回來什麼成績我覺得這樣真的是非常"},{"start":10442.921,"end":10471.622,"text":"不太正確在審議預算的思維所以從92頁到112頁黃國昌委員如果您可以看一下這些完整的資料也許您可以對於這個預算可以進行更合理的一些主張否則799萬大筆一砍砍了600萬那我們的國際會議都不要參加了我們對於國際司法組織的國際協力的工作都不要做了這個我是真的覺得我很在乎好嗎"},{"start":10474.367,"end":10496.446,"text":"謝謝吳校委員 我也很認同吳校委員剛說的兩岸共同打擊犯罪真的很重要但是現在就是理想很豐滿 現實很骨感因為現在好像也都沒有嘛那或是不是說 因為我是凍結而且是只有一定的比例我不是說全把你們刪掉而不認同所以是不是可以給我過去這一年"},{"start":10498.408,"end":10522.569,"text":"到底有從那個大陸地區有移送多少人回來這些數據能夠給我一下或者是跟大陸地區那邊有做什麼樣的司法互助或者是犯罪共同的打擊這個數據能夠給我那當然如果給我的話我是非常支持兩岸共同打擊犯罪的所以我剛我是認同吳教委員說這個東西很重要好那是不是我還沒講"},{"start":10531.706,"end":10549.897,"text":"主席很不好意思因為從剛剛羅委員在開始做提案說明的時候我就舉手但是我想尊重主席的裁量其實現在拖了這麼久可能剛剛程序上的詢問也都冷掉了因為本來我是想要提醒或請教主席因為從第11案"},{"start":10551.878,"end":10563.703,"text":"到第31案這個雖然都是法務行政第二幕但它當中包含了出國計畫包含了國外旅費包含了大陸地區旅費"},{"start":10564.696,"end":10591.714,"text":"那因為過去在預算審查的時候因為今年以來應該說去年在審今年度的預算的時候大概這些項目都是通案處理所以我本來想要請教主席說是不是這些項目就是通案處理然後我們再討論其他非屬這些國外旅費大陸地區旅費的其他的提案不過主席就通通都推進了所以我就不曉得現在原來主席的方式是把"},{"start":10594.756,"end":10620.231,"text":"那我現在就這幾個以外我並沒有指責的意思我是說你要了解一下主席的處理方式因為有關這個第二幕的部分主席我還沒講完我只是說你不是問我嗎我說我本來要問的啊但是現在都已經講完了好那我就簡單說因為有關出國這個費用部分因為這個黃委員跟翁委員他們非常重視這一塊所以我就讓他們把這個細項把它處理清楚了解所以我們"},{"start":10621.351,"end":10636.964,"text":"就是第二幕全部討論包含國外旅費跟大陸地區旅費跟不是國外旅費跟大陸地區旅費的部分都一併討論我大概知道你的意思了啦那麼那現在因為本席要談的是非屬於國外旅費跟大陸地區旅費的啦"},{"start":10637.344,"end":10653.576,"text":"那因為呢這裡面有包括我看到的就剛剛翁委員有提出來的他的第十三案還十四案那這些呢其實都可以深入來討論包括主席本身的提案您的提案我也很重視您的提案我剛剛看到了也非屬於這個"},{"start":10655.098,"end":10669.834,"text":"呃...旅費啦齁我現在因為已經很多了要再找一下主席的提案是在...呃...您兩個一個是大陸地區旅費一個是國外旅費齁我剛剛聽您說好像還有一個也都是國外地區跟大陸地區的旅費嘛齁"},{"start":10670.795,"end":10689.746,"text":"那我就就我們翁委員所提出的部分來表達一下意見那翁委員這邊他所提出的13案他主要的是這個關於AI他就是關於翻譯的文件那我剛剛彷彿因為已經時間隔了很久了本來想要馬上來就教於我們提案委員的"},{"start":10690.126,"end":10706.974,"text":"因為我本身非常關心AI的運用那事實上在委員會的時候也多次提出AI的應用那包括我們立法院的預算在審議的時候我也覺得在翻譯的部分事實上如果能夠導入AI其實也可以有效的來運用那因為這裡翁委員他是說這個辦理的"},{"start":10710.134,"end":10728.412,"text":"FATF的這個洗錢房制洗錢房制我們想這是一個國際性的問題國際性重要的犯罪問題每個國家主權國家都非常的重視那這裡面呢提到的相關文件翻譯費用那可是翁委員認為呢人才濟濟啊節省工廠不需委外"},{"start":10729.033,"end":10749.635,"text":"那我想目前我們的法務部的各個專職人員大家都各有所思還有各個的職長那麼如果說要請他們因為略通或者精通其他不同國家的語言那麼就要來負擔這個翻譯的工作我是覺得基於我們的核心能力應該專注在"},{"start":10751.513,"end":10779.142,"text":"核心業務上那像這種是屬於委外辦理即可的其實我們應該討論的是說如何讓有限的經費做最大效益的發揮而非反向去思考說好像自己家裡的人可以做那就通通不要請人家做不要忘了我們每個工作人員在法務部的都是各有專業不會因為他精巧他國的語言他就要來承擔額外的翻譯的工作所以我覺得這個思維這樣說下去恐怕"},{"start":10780.022,"end":10796.697,"text":"會破壞了我們整個機關內部的專業分工其實有些時候就算有些人他外語很強但你叫他就翻譯的工作是大材小用我不是說翻譯是比較小材我是說各有專長那麼一個閒守我們司法行政業務的人只因為他通曉外語"},{"start":10797.478,"end":10817.824,"text":"要他撥出額外的時間去做這個翻譯的工作這個是一個資源上的挫制啦我們要從比較利益的優勢的角度經濟學上的比較利益讓最擅長的人去做更專注的事情而不是讓一個他應該在本質上發揮的人只是因為他有十項全能叫他每一項都要做"},{"start":10818.804,"end":10846.561,"text":"這反而拖垮了他最專長的項目上的一個工作效益所以我個人是本來就這個提案本來想要來表達意見的那也不好意思翁委員拖了這麼久那我就是針對認為說這個108萬這個其實呢待會如果法務部有機會說明的話我還是希望說其實目前的AI的運用相當的發達跟迅速那如果說能夠善用這樣的一個工具或許傳統的委外發包"},{"start":10847.521,"end":10874.257,"text":"或許就可以透過一個軟體的採購就可以解決你們這個問題而讓我們這些部內的各種的積極的人才他或許不是做第一手的翻譯他只要做相關的檢核就可以了我是覺得該花的錢還要花那不要把我們專業的人力做一些非他本職業務所應該做的一些浪費跟虛職那以上這樣的意見來就教於提案委員 謝謝"},{"start":10877.5,"end":10903.014,"text":"好 那翁委員既然這個鐘委員這個請我回答這些問題那我就來講一下FTA出版的洗錢防治相關指引文件根據我剛剛上午查了一下大概就是有防治洗錢金融行動工作組織評鑒方法論等等這些文件是不是還是說你們是有什麼樣的特別的文件要翻譯根本如果說是這些指引文件"},{"start":10903.894,"end":10911.422,"text":"基本上它就是個更新版可能之前它就已經有提出了那之後的更新也許只是部分內容的更新那麼話說回來現在已經進入AI的時代有太多可用的即時翻譯的軟體不管是在Google或是TradeGPT等等我相信這個保務部的同仁也應該要學習相關的這個"},{"start":10924.876,"end":10939.296,"text":"這個軟體的運用更何況你現在洗錢防治相關的這些文件它都是具有高度的專業我不知道你這些是委託給哪一個翻譯社裡面是具有高度專業的法律人士可以去翻譯這些文件而且還編了一百零八萬"},{"start":10941.075,"end":10945.86,"text":"你今天編了十萬我也就算了編一百零八萬去翻譯這些文件而且看起來只是更新版所以這個部分的話待會請部長這邊做清楚的說明就是你們到底翻譯些什麼那麼為什麼需要花一百零八萬你們自己法務部裡面其實也有些行政同仁像我剛剛講可以運用這個"},{"start":10963.698,"end":10978.202,"text":"科技的軟體一些程式就可以翻了翻了之後你們再去看跟我們台灣的法律用語是不是相一致對這個我還是要強調一點你們現在所編的那些錢都是人民的納稅錢錢要花在刀口上"},{"start":10982.543,"end":11009.412,"text":"能省則省即便它是小錢確實我們司法法制委員會底下所審查的這個機關的預算跟其他交通委員會經濟委員會相比那是小兒科經費是不多但是不能說因為編的錢少所以我們就服編那是本席認為說這個地方還是全要審慎的使用以上"},{"start":11011.932,"end":11024.699,"text":"好謝謝我先宣告一下就是說上午會議時間截止時間將至先做程序宣告上午會議進行至議程所列事項均處理完畢為止好那請黃委員"},{"start":11026.918,"end":11052.913,"text":"我只有一個簡單的問題喔就是剛剛聽了不同的委員發表的看法我就非常好奇你們現在編這個一百零八萬是要翻譯什麼東西你涉案寫是說洗錢防治相關指引文件嘛那代表的是你們手上已經有這個文件了嘛那這個文件要委外去翻嗎翻需要一百零八萬嗎我省預算很實事求是的你把那個文件"},{"start":11054.278,"end":11067.88,"text":"等一下提供給所有委員我等一下看完我看非常快的啦我看完就知道編這108萬到底合理不合理是不是我請執行秘書來"},{"start":11071.339,"end":11086.133,"text":"我現在就請那個執行秘書來其實網路上就看得到了我現在要不要參考一下那請問一下機關有沒有要回應任何我是不是這個有關你那個一百零八萬這邊我請洗碗飯的執行秘書我沒意見啊就是還有沒有其他要回應的好"},{"start":11090.199,"end":11093.36,"text":"因為我現在看到的是FATF防止洗錢金融行動工作組織的文件"},{"start":11111.784,"end":11135.714,"text":"那我只是打開第一個視窗而已它就有1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1011,12,13,14,14類的文件包括評鑑方法論包括FATF40項建議及注釋然後包括它的"},{"start":11137.796,"end":11166.603,"text":"當然有更新版到包括防治資助恐怖活動第九項特別建議及注釋包括四十項建議包括是不是這些的話包括打擊清洗黑錢財務行動特別組織的四十項建議及八項特別建議評鑒方法論包括金融機構偵測資助恐怖分子活動的指引包括反恐的金融作戰等等因為這些都有英文版"},{"start":11167.762,"end":11195.009,"text":"每個點進去都有完整的英文版你們是不是在做這些文件的翻譯部長 是不是所以看起來量是挺多的吧你們應該說一下是不是請我喜歡辦的執行秘書可能資料量因為我想說這個省一點這個愛護地球上網其實可以看到相關的這個文件的英文版所以想了解的委員可以參考一下"},{"start":11196.63,"end":11212.42,"text":"我就是參考了才看到吳司堯委員好像沒有細讀啊他裡面有對啊是啊他現在要翻譯的是什麼來請說明你們要翻譯的是哪一份是還有方法論呢報告委員吳司行政院行前防治辦公室的執行秘書是可以麻煩看一下麥克風"},{"start":11216.858,"end":11231.297,"text":"報告委員我是行政院洗錢房之辦公室蘇珮玉執行秘書跟委員報告其實事實上來講我們有關於FATF的部分去年1.13的部分並不是只有FATFFATF上下下非常多的一個指引"},{"start":11231.778,"end":11254.611,"text":"包括去年有八個文件包括透過機關間網絡追回國際犯罪所得這一方面的一個指引還有網路詐欺產生的非法金流它們有相關的一些整個的收集整個全世界各國的資訊也包括濫用投資公民及投資資流權的計畫以及國際全國一致的相互評鑑的追蹤程序裡面的通用程序"},{"start":11255.111,"end":11278.668,"text":"包括打擊洗錢 包括還有吃恐之無闊還有群眾募資滋恐還有打擊非營利組織的滋恐濫用等等的還包括我們當然有建議跟評鑑方法論那所以這個部分的話我們整個的文件上翻譯其實是非常多的一個文件的翻譯不是只有它的recommendation就是它的建議以及它的methodology評鑑方法論而已以上報告所以"},{"start":11282.065,"end":11303.562,"text":"你們要翻的東西就除了剛剛講的那個防治洗錢金融行動工作組織憑借方法論的2023年6月更新版之外還有翻其他的就不是像吳四堯委員講的後面的那些嘛十幾個指引嘛是不是是不是對吧所以我就說嘛數頁有專攻嘛這有的時候呢看這些資料還是"},{"start":11304.883,"end":11326.67,"text":"要有点sense然后才能够去理解对不对那么你们现在翻的就是更新版他到底2023年的更新他跟之前的2022年的更新有什么不同你们自己内部就不能作业吗我也知道说他是可能他更新的幅度只是小部分的你们自己就可以翻译了不是吗其他的你刚刚讲的那些指引文件他是用一个完全全新的一个文件吗"},{"start":11327.981,"end":11355.687,"text":"看起來應該也不是以我這個長年在法學方面研究我大概知道它可能也都是一個更新的部分對你們自己既然是洗錢防治處你們有這樣的辦公室裡面應該就有這樣的人才對於少部分的這樣的一個更新版自己就可以翻譯了不需要花一百零八萬去委外翻譯以上"},{"start":11358.072,"end":11381.245,"text":"主席光這個第一項的這個方法論點進去看的話光這個2023年update這個190頁190頁是不是要不要說明一下是不是190頁我永遠可以點進去看一下"},{"start":11384.976,"end":11387.419,"text":"190頁我現在說的就是一個一個來一個一個來一直在打斷我的講話"},{"start":11400.575,"end":11411.47,"text":"我請你看清楚我想再確認一下就你這個表格裡頭有很多有英文版的文件這個108萬絕對不是指在處理剛剛這個190頁的內容吧"},{"start":11418.53,"end":11444.059,"text":"跟委員報告 其實剛才翁委員指的非常正確就是說實際上我們所報 其實在那個Message那個平均方法論的部分那是個更新那是2020版跟2023年版更新其實這幾年國際規範其實修正非常的快而且非常的多然後其實我們就就更新的部分那實際上我們大部分就剛才講的很多的包括網路詐欺產生的非法金流FATF有一個全世界的一個報告"},{"start":11444.639,"end":11463.995,"text":"而這個報告的部分其實是翻譯的其他的那個是全新的報告那包括了還有其他群眾募資滋恐的這個情形等等有很多的其他的新的報告所以不是只有在做更新而已那報告的部分其實佔了非常多的一個部分以上報告所以這裡頭的這些很新的這些"},{"start":11466.357,"end":11482.473,"text":"最新的information然後幾十項建議幾十項建議都是因為新的犯罪形態嘛是然後針對新的內容所以不是只針對那個原本的方法論裡頭當然方法論是一個guideline嘛對不對那針對很多新的"},{"start":11484.254,"end":11505.822,"text":"樣態然後我剛講的國際based on這些國際交流的所有東西所有的conference所有的國際的forum一直在更新不同的各國的新的做法你們都要把這些文件再把它中文跟英文都有嗎是對沒錯就是這個部分的話我們必須要提供即時的進去那委員一直覺得108萬在浪費錢不需要花這麼多你覺得呢"},{"start":11507.44,"end":11521.819,"text":"各位人報告實際上來講我們本身在洗房辦裡面也要定期參與很多的國際會議那我們人其實非常的少才十出頭位而已那我們國際會議以及我們要舉辦一些國際上面的相關的研討會那這個地方的話"},{"start":11522.099,"end":11542.696,"text":"有關翻譯的部分其實因為現在的一個字其實已經非常就是翻譯費是非常非常高昂然後我們很多的新的翻譯的部分新的報告都要引進國就是從國際引進國內來做一個洗錢防治的一個全面的國際的防護網所以這個部分的話我們確實是有委外的必要性以上報告所以希望就是"},{"start":11547.042,"end":11573.468,"text":"要把道理講清楚到底多少文件因為我不好意思我自己是外文系畢業的這些外語的人才的培訓其實是很辛苦的不是說我們部內有懂英文的人就可以我是修西班牙文跟日語雙學位的但是我的能力絕對跟可以專業去翻譯司法的內容的專業的國際文件那是完全是兩件事"},{"start":11574.128,"end":11601.25,"text":"所以我們常常在辦國際論壇都知道尤其那種即時口譯這個人才這個支付這個費用都是非常這是人家的專業跟我會講基本的內容是不一樣所以我覺得尊重專業那108萬就我而言我一個外語系畢業的學生我都認為它不是一個多麼巨額離譜的預算的編列因為都還是核實嘛"},{"start":11602.091,"end":11625.528,"text":"那如果說有委員覺得一百零八萬是非常非常離譜的就專業的不同語言的翻譯就把他認為是一個要全刪文委員全刪餒你可留一點給人家我們外語系畢業的學生需要需要這些對不對來協力國家全刪餒我是覺得保留啦好不好好黃委員"},{"start":11631.938,"end":11650.005,"text":"我只有一個很簡單的我剛要的東西什麼時候可以提供因為剛剛大家發言你講很多嘛其他的我也講很多嘛講完了一堆以後我們就回到現實具體的要翻什麼東西等一下什麼時候可以提供給我"},{"start":11651.378,"end":11676.892,"text":"因為我相信我看一看了以後大概那個是一個什麼樣子因為英文喔level非常的多啦剛剛我簡單上去看了一下那個英文其實不是太複雜的東西啦稍微看一下沒有什麼太大的困難但是我喜歡實事求是嘛具體到底要翻什麼東西等一下硬來我看一看心理就有數了好 莊委員"},{"start":11680.004,"end":11696.259,"text":"謝謝趙偉今天審議宣言我覺得很奇怪是你們不去溝通還是你們不去溝通很奇怪因為有一些其實都可以溝通你像比如說兩岸打擊犯罪那個部分我剛好舉手因為趙偉可能剛好沒有看到這個部分我也想了解"},{"start":11697.279,"end":11718.16,"text":"這個部分其實也沒有什麼黨派,我相信也沒有人會去把那個預算給他做組黨,倒也不是說什麼吳昭偉想了解,我也想了解,因為我本來就是認為他也很有這個必要性,其實有一些可以溝通可以了解的,倒其實也沒有必要在這個地方一直在"},{"start":11719.341,"end":11741.977,"text":"大家這邊提問嘛 那有一些一看就是有必要性可是就是有其他委員既然有提案的話 其實也要去做一個說明啦要做一個說明啦那不 今天各位我也是 坐在這裡也要讓人家保留而已啊我也抱歉把人提案說 這個到底有什麼不合理的一個地方那確實是個 沒有去講清楚的話 這個就變成整個預算的一個審查"},{"start":11742.837,"end":11759.042,"text":"對你們的預算就會比較有點影響跟那個延宕啦那到底合不合理啊這個本來就可以大家來講清楚的啦打擊兩岸犯罪那個部分是不是也不用提供給召委看起來大家認為說比較不合理的地方應該讓大家都"},{"start":11760.842,"end":11772.448,"text":"了解一下我一看不是只有吳宗憲政委那看了合理就放行我認為合理如果他認為不合理我還幹掉他明顯就可以合理的東西我相信大家都很理性的好謝謝"},{"start":11774.721,"end":11803.729,"text":"好 眾召委謝謝主席剛剛那個莊委員的一番一席話那加上剛剛主席一開始就提到了我們預算審議本來就是年度的重頭戲呈如剛剛吳思耀委員所說本席也是第九度參加了預算審查那麼中央政府的預算審查的確是一個重中之重那麼這九年來我也學習了很多那因為我也了解到每個委員都他提案一定有他想要知道的可是剛剛主席一開始就說"},{"start":11804.49,"end":11815.468,"text":"而這個法務部或相關的機關對於提案委員的提案內容都沒有來溝通說明過這個我就很疑惑了我的提案雖然不多但是每一案我想要知道的內容"},{"start":11817.147,"end":11844.326,"text":"機關都有來想辦法約到時間來當面說明那麼說明的過程當中或許剛剛我們討論的這些事情啊就可以解決了因為以所知所知應該不至於是在我們會議審查的當下所謂是臨時發現的不然的話呢事前呢都可以有機關說明後透過所知透過資料的盧列也不用再耗費委員在那邊提案說等著我覺得今年度我們的預算廠常常有一個現象"},{"start":11845.387,"end":11861.974,"text":"其實我們常常在委員會突然看到一個東西這個東西要資料資料怎麼沒有給我我們等資料送達不管是能水主機還是什麼的一些必要的辦公廳設的設備其實這些東西有的上網可以查得到有的跟"},{"start":11863.294,"end":11879.021,"text":"機關來說明的時候詢問清楚他提供就可以像剛剛那位同仁法務部的同仁他講到的他可能應該專門在承辦這個案件我覺得如果事前有機會向提案委員去做說明到底是單純的英文的普通英文翻譯"},{"start":11880.141,"end":11896.41,"text":"還是有要必要的專業人才能夠了解他的專用術語還是說除了翻譯之外還需要撰寫其他的說明文字這個在翻譯服務上都有不同等級的收費我再強調一次只是單純的英翻中這是一種"},{"start":11897.35,"end":11917.468,"text":"另外涉及到專業的一些專有名詞還要另外抓出來做一個解釋甚至第三種還要對於相關的條文做一些解析那這些都是不同專業不同等級的服務費用當然也會有所差異那只是我還是回歸到莊委員所問的我自己本身我所提案的內容為什麼後來可以改列組決議因為我聽了主管機關的"},{"start":11918.569,"end":11942.641,"text":"說明之後我覺得他們說明的已經解答我的疑惑了所以我的要求讓他們在組決議當中留為來年度遵行的一個方向那麼至於我所懷疑的事情已經得到清楚之後呢我就不會再堅持要用簡列或凍結的方式來處理我相信每位委員在審查預算的時候都不是以簡列或刪除為能事都是要監督主管業務機關"},{"start":11944.242,"end":11965.892,"text":"他們把他們的業務呢把錢用在刀口上把我們看到過去效益不彰的部分予以改善那麼我們這些錢其實我們只是當人民保守他們的納稅錢這些錢交到政府手上就要善加運用而不是三節後不用政府預算我們三節很多簡列很多不用不是幫人民省錢"},{"start":11967.032,"end":11986.107,"text":"這是一個錯誤的印象我們幫人民省錢是保證他們的錢不會被浪費讓他們所交出來的納稅錢用在刀口上我們行政機關畢竟行政機關所從事的業務就是提升人民的福祉嘛有錢才能提升人民的福祉嘛方法正不正確有無浪費是我們關注的這才是我們省預算的本質那為什麼今天省到這裡又會發生剛剛"},{"start":11991.13,"end":12005.657,"text":"包括主席也說的可能張昌主席前一陣子身體危險我們也知道啦可能不太好找那是否法務部有積極的去跟我們包括召委在內的委員去約妥時間去進行說明那不用在這裡呢"},{"start":12006.898,"end":12024.171,"text":"額外的花費很多的時間只是為了要索資其實這些資料剛剛連上網都看得到了我相信如果機關能夠有機會跟委員提案委員說明不需要我們在這邊耗這個時間等候機關去調這些資料啦我真的很誠懇的跟主席建議一下是不是說雖然主席剛剛做了一個宣告"},{"start":12024.631,"end":12050.254,"text":"我們今天的議程繼續到那個審議完畢為止但我相信主席還是會給大家午休的時間是不是這些所知的需求我們都請業務機關趕快趁這個時間去跟委員說明或是趕快拿來讓委員看好不好 這是一個建議好 那有關這個部分是這樣因為剛剛中委員有提到那個中招委也有提到 其實"},{"start":12051.363,"end":12076.595,"text":"因為我也問過我助理然後就是法務部這邊都沒有任何人來跟我們說約一個時間來談所以這很奇怪啊連個電話都沒有啊那我跟大家報告有關這個出國的這個費用因為我自己很清楚這對國家有沒有幫助在座的孟司長孟玉梅司長我們以前一起去雅加達參加美國政府在那邊開的洗塵"},{"start":12077.935,"end":12101.524,"text":"洗錢防治的會議那這邊的那個執行秘書洗房辦的執行秘書蘇執行秘書我們當年一起去曼谷參加國際檢察官會議所以這個東西我很清楚對國家有一定的幫助但是你要給我資料我們溝通完畢之後我才知道我怎麼做所以我也是用凍結的方式而不是要求刪除"},{"start":12102.364,"end":12131.334,"text":"因為有意需要花的錢我當然支持啊但是我們覺得有不足的地方是不是我們來溝通一下那溝通完畢沒有問題我直接改為主決議今天連談都不用談我覺得是跟剛剛那個中早委說的其實意思是一樣因為這段時間完全沒有我連一通電話或我住連一通電話都沒接到這事情很大條耶 朝委你們沒有去找他說明預算嗎"},{"start":12133.168,"end":12142.154,"text":"沒有嗎因為趙偉生病可能你們也不敢打電話助理也沒有接到助理沒有嗎主任沒有嗎說清楚"},{"start":12143.803,"end":12170.978,"text":"因為我自己感同身受我跟趙偉報告我是司法法治委員會第一年來的我其實對很多同仁都是不熟悉的不像我對教育文化部我都很熟我們的聯絡人大哥我連在路上走在這個走廊上我要去上廁所他多次在廁所前攔截我就為了要跟我說明委員你那個案子兩個案子性質差不多"},{"start":12171.943,"end":12191.169,"text":"要不要併案就昨天前天發生的事情嘛你嘛我要去廁所你還把我攔下來要跟我解釋預算案嗎對不起因為我對大家的姓名我沒有辦法一個一個所以我意思是說我相信他們都會努力想方設法的去跟委員做預算的說明"},{"start":12192.475,"end":12217.231,"text":"別人玩弄啦我想一定有啦因為我自己就感同身受一直是這樣你問我我們辦公室助理也是一直這樣我如果在忙我沒有辦法跟他們見面討論一定會跟助理一個案子一個案子不是不會不會我是你是朝委這絕對不可能我跟你講絕對不可能真的朝委是他們要重中之重又是這麼重量級這樣子所以我覺得因為"},{"start":12219.292,"end":12243.245,"text":"今天一百多案我們現在是十幾案重點是提案委員我也跟召委做一點小小的這個交換意見我過去也擔任過其他委員會的召委通常是就是就溝通後的結論來做處理那如果今天來這裡又盤古開天每一個案子這樣那今天我們可能要"},{"start":12244.434,"end":12263.887,"text":"要省非常非常久啦所以我覺得這就是預算去溝通的過程那我真的萬萬沒有想過我剛剛一開始不就跟張偉問我們今天大概要開多久嗎啊都溝通過了像我的案子我願意改組決議的或者是有我的堅持這都之前處理過了這是我們省預算的經驗所以時間是不是可以摘一下啊我相信別人說他一定有跟你報告想方設法"},{"start":12270.953,"end":12281.495,"text":"攔截或是跟辦公室助理或主任您再詳查一下我對所有部門公務部門的理解預算會期他們是太辛苦了所以"},{"start":12283.191,"end":12301.312,"text":"也要平反一下啦 我相信一定有啦一定有啦 趙偉沒關係那我們就還是會議進行比較重要喔我跟你講那個都因為這都以前我的長官啦我就不會為難他們啦是怎麼樣我們有沒有做到就把它補起來我也沒有任何意見"},{"start":12306.878,"end":12313.484,"text":"我們先處理 第22案是改動200萬 這個機關有意見這你們談好了嗎 沒有意見23案到26案改組決議 請問一下機關有意見"},{"start":12324.537,"end":12351.197,"text":"沒有意見好那第三十案改動一百萬這個部分也都溝通了請問機關有意見沒有意見沒有意見好那其他的部分第十一到第二十一以及二十七到二十九及第三十一這我不知道大家有沒有共識啊有沒有一個共識看統統三還是統統結還是說需要保留看各位委員的意見"},{"start":12352.746,"end":12378.319,"text":"主席我針對出國旅費的部分因為剛剛有透過很多的討論因為出國旅費好像也會通案處理好像各個委員會應當會要不要一起一併保留就是朝野協商的時候通案會處理我沒有意見我就說我請教各個委員就經驗上也是這樣第二個剛剛那個翻譯費翁委員他們需要翻譯要不然以後有德文翻譯直接請翁委員幫忙就可以省一條108萬要委託給我嗎"},{"start":12383.843,"end":12397.115,"text":"可以委託給我的學生嗎我的意思講說其實就是因為它是更新的部分如果今天全部都是新的我覺得委外那也就罷了但是如果是少部分的更新我不知道更新範圍多少更何況就像我講的現在有很多的軟體"},{"start":12402.219,"end":12423.495,"text":"他可以及時翻譯,還不需要你委外翻譯,然後委外翻譯之後你們回過頭來,自己法務部的同仁也要再去查核,再去檢視他翻譯的對不對,對不對,我們自己當學生我們很清楚啊,我過去其實有很多,譬如說要翻西班牙文,翻日文,日文這些我都不會,我也會委外翻,翻回來之後呢,亂七八糟的,根本看不懂。"},{"start":12424.255,"end":12443.948,"text":"最後我還是要委託可能懂日文的懂其他語文的法律系的學生來翻那麼現在因為科技這個工具已經很發達了對 那我 我知道一百零八萬是不多是不多 但是仍然是能審則審對 就是這個原則好 那如果沒有其他 國昌委員有意見嗎那我的案子他們不同意 不同意就保留啊"},{"start":12454.349,"end":12465.645,"text":"那這樣子所以說我們剛剛提到了第11到第21然後27到29及第3C就於保留那我們直接宣告"},{"start":12466.752,"end":12489.423,"text":"好那第二幕法務行政提案案號第11案至第31案第23到第26改為主決議第11到2127到2931保留送協商那第二幕法務行政向下辦理檢查行政業務"},{"start":12500.833,"end":12514.615,"text":"辦理檢查行政業務中獎補助費凍結200萬提出書面報告金同意後 使得凍資補助毒品防治特別收入基金凍結100萬"},{"start":12517.536,"end":12531.643,"text":"等提出書面報告後 使得動之接著處理第三目一般建築及設備提案案號第32及第33案那第32及第33案我們改為主決議 請問一下機關有意見好"},{"start":12538.047,"end":12548.576,"text":"謝謝主席 其實我是提案委員這個提案我也經過事前的溝通同意改為主決議不過因為剛剛有些在改為主決議的內容其實"},{"start":12550.256,"end":12578.551,"text":"或者說已經跟溝通過了跟提案委員溝通過了那我是建議主席還是可以詢問一下在場委員因為有時候就算是提案委員跟機關已經溝通過了但是還是建議請主席詢問一下如果委員沒有意見就OK那我的提案我當然改主席我沒有意見我是說可能要請主席詢問一下不因為是我同意了那麼機關也同意了我們委員會就照單全收是這樣的意思沒有什麼其他的意思就是這樣而已謝謝中招委"},{"start":12579.011,"end":12603.606,"text":"那請問一下第32及第33案改為主決議這個部分各位委員有其他意見補充好那沒有沒有好那我們就第三幕一般建築及設備第32、33案改為主決議那兩案決議內容均為請台灣高等檢察署"},{"start":12604.386,"end":12628.802,"text":"就防詐相關作為提出書面報告故第32第33案改列為第12款第8項台灣高等檢察署自主決議並將決議第一段有關法務部預算文字及第二段手製為自刪除沒有意見的話就修正通過接著處理第5幕司法科技業務"},{"start":12631.36,"end":12643.471,"text":"提案案號第34第35案我的提案我這部分我說明一下"},{"start":12644.777,"end":12672.098,"text":"因為有關這個司法科技業務向下的這個新世代智慧檢查AI科技計畫我們其實編列的費用非常高是高達八九八萬七千元但是據我去了解一下各地檢署就是事辦的這個地檢署他們雖然你們有提供給我們一個是利用AI系統所製作出來的圖表或是書類"},{"start":12673.599,"end":12689.492,"text":"高達數萬件但是我們去了解真正最後使用的可能跟這個數字有一段差距也就是說經由人工智慧所製作出來的圖表跟書類是不是真的有效運用在"},{"start":12690.293,"end":12717.735,"text":"那個實際的最後完成的書類上面或者是說我們聽到的非常多的基層的檢察官表示目前的這個系統做出來的書類其實根本不好用因為他現在主要是處理一些檢疫的案件那檢疫的案件檢察官在套用套用那個過往的案例或者是套用格式之後其實那個製作起來比"},{"start":12718.235,"end":12740.425,"text":"人工智慧製作出來的更精確而且速度更快所以我們希望了解一下我這邊希望了解一下就是他所製作出來的書類他只是一個案件 案出來他就會製作出來了但是所製作出來的這個成果運用在實際上面的幫助有多少這部分我希望能夠了解那個 中召委"},{"start":12742.924,"end":12755.136,"text":"謝謝主席 那麼其實AI一直是這陣子以來大家所關注的焦點那我從提案的內容當中有注意到法務部是從110年到112年這三年期間就檢查機關的AI智慧輔助系統"},{"start":12761.002,"end":12779.92,"text":"那麼因為剛好趙薇主席本身也是出自於檢查系統所以您對於這個系統的評價我相信一定有您的親身體驗但也正因為是如此所以我才要想要多請那個歷史機關代表在說明預算的時候呢可不可以就過去這三年的執行的情況因為"},{"start":12781.308,"end":12804.463,"text":"因為如果機關代表有機會去跟提案委員就是召委有見面過那麼可能他們提供的資料就會比我們現在看到的提案說明更為完整更為豐富那可不可以我請求主席待會如果說真的法務部真的有為了這個提案打算去拜訪我們吳召委的話你們必然是有準備一些資料"},{"start":12805.123,"end":12822.33,"text":"那你們打算去拜訪屋召回所要準備的這些資料如果今天也有一些簡要的內容送到委員會來或許我們其他非提案委員也可以了解到提案委員所關注的是否我們可以支持還是機關所希望執行的預算我們認為應該予以支持這個會影響到我們的判斷"},{"start":12827.512,"end":12842.331,"text":"所以我是覺得說剛剛已經提到了如果這些事前要找提案委員溝通的資料都有備妥的話能否現在就能夠有一些內容讓我們看一下因為營職已經三年了嘛那我相信這三年除了"},{"start":12843.031,"end":12850.437,"text":"提案委員所提的官號1234這些分別如列了大概有1169萬 1100萬 900萬總計經費高達3169萬但是明年度三個年度編列的預算加起來是超過3000萬但是你們明年編列的不到900萬"},{"start":12868.843,"end":12892.134,"text":"所以反而從我的理解從書面的文章來講是不增反減如果我沒有讀錯的話你們三年間執行了超過三千萬可是明年卻編不到九百萬那這反而讓我們去理解說AI現在變成一個主流趨勢我們或許要提升在AI方面資源的投入運用這樣的科技工具協助減少我們專職人員的負荷"},{"start":12895.416,"end":12912.823,"text":"我是覺得這個議題呢那結果我們現在提案委員說還要動你們20%那我都覺得不減不徵還減了那再動個20%那這個業務還要不要做呢還是說真的做的績效很差可能根本是一個錯誤的投資本席都很好奇以上"},{"start":12914.738,"end":12937.554,"text":"謝謝鐘召委那這樣我另外還有一個就是說希望你們來跟我們說明的時候就是我剛剛提到的第一個就是製作出來的東西檢察官實際拿來試你書類的件數到底有多少我要知道實際的運用第二個還有一個重點就是說我們在那個定義執行型的副表功能那個東西啊那個副表到底有沒有列出個案的犯罪時間"},{"start":12938.735,"end":12960.752,"text":"因為大家都很專業很清楚嘛你前科表看不出來 但是定執行型的時候非常重要所以這個副表到底有沒有羅列出犯罪時間這也請拿資料來跟我們討論的時候能夠告訴我好我現在可以請那個 報告主席可以好 如果現在說明可以啊因為這個跟三署案是一樣的"},{"start":12967.873,"end":12988.945,"text":"主席以及各位委員大家好我是法務部檢察師郭永發那有關於委員剛指教的就有關於我們新世代智慧AI科技延續前期AI智慧輔助功能我們確實是從110年開始執行到目前為止"},{"start":12989.685,"end":13018.641,"text":"那這個有關於110年到112年這個相關的數據我們馬上回去之後馬上會整理給我們委員至於113年的一個部分其實我們是這個增加了這個基礎性的結構資料提升效益包括訓練AI自動產捷這個書類系統以及酒駕還有有關於這個最重要的就是"},{"start":13019.601,"end":13041.441,"text":"炸機犯罪的被害人的這個的副表跟這個車手的副表那跟委員報告有關於這個數據就是從113年的9月16號到去年的12月中旬統計產製的炸機副表 炸機副表酒醉駕車結案書類總共有2562件"},{"start":13047.326,"end":13068.655,"text":"並完成了這個定值行刑的一個付表那這個現在目前事辦的機關有包括桃園地檢署以及這個台中地檢署以及新北還有台北地檢署這四個地檢署在事辦那其實檢察官只要願意應用他就可以上網"},{"start":13069.495,"end":13082.988,"text":"上去下載這些資料至於今年的計畫是包括捐贈資料數位及結構化然後持續的推動有關你這個徵訊筆錄"},{"start":13085.33,"end":13109.87,"text":"我們是希望能夠減輕書記官的製作筆錄的一個pull line看能不能優化我們這個人工智慧系統能夠這個在檢查官詢問的訊問的時候能夠就產製出徵訊筆錄這樣的一個功能來提升偵查的效力另外我們希望也擴大有關於這個詐欺付表"},{"start":13110.51,"end":13126.465,"text":"炸機的這個上手車手以及被害人上手比較複雜的這個護錶其實就我關於炸機護錶的製作其實是佔據我們這個檢察官很多的一個工作量如果這一塊能夠"},{"start":13127.726,"end":13145.938,"text":"比較大量的去解決它其實是可以大量的舒緩檢察官的工作量那有關於這個其他的書類部分就朝著比較大量化重複性的包括毒品、赤道、過失傷害等這些檢疫的案件能夠用AI來產製這些"},{"start":13148.559,"end":13161.08,"text":"這案的書類以上的報告那注意詳細的這個細節部分是不是容我們再跟召委做一個比較詳細的溝通報告 以上鐘召委"},{"start":13164.286,"end":13189.82,"text":"抱歉因為剛剛聽了這樣的說明還是有很疑惑啦因為我剛剛的問題核心是既然提案人就是我們主席都已經列1234連我們這種不是圈內人的我們也經常受理民眾陳情我們真的略略了解說這個事情單單是在借街警巡的筆錄有一個詐欺案件被害人就散居好幾個地方"},{"start":13190.62,"end":13210.399,"text":"那有時候被害人來找我們我們還要說這個案是從外縣市的警察局打來的電話那我們要去追但我們用人工就覺得好可怕一個案子就牽連那麼多被害人那更不用想像在後續的情況之下後面原來我們檢察官還要去製作被害人的匯款付表"},{"start":13210.979,"end":13224.669,"text":"那大家如果用ATM的還得了有時候一個詐騙案件那麼多的悲憾人善變全國各地啊那我想的這個都是非常需要的那至於說怎麼自動數位這個證券辨識證券證"},{"start":13226.73,"end":13253.636,"text":"那我想呢這個我就不是檢查官我就不曉得它的功能是什麼但我只有一個直覺我覺得說這個應該如果過去三年花了三千多萬一年超過一千多萬那不可能明年我們少於九百萬啊我還是很疑惑啊為什麼會是這樣子呢跟委員補充一下其實它是一個前三年是一個三年期的計畫已經結束了這個是另外一個次三年的計畫的第一年"},{"start":13258.498,"end":13269.326,"text":"第一期是三千萬左右下一期預計也是三千萬左右今年是三千萬裡面的第一年大概九百萬左右它是一個延續性的計畫第一年"},{"start":13278.869,"end":13304.18,"text":"後續就是他們後續就明年度了後續的話我們大概就是說後續我們做一個AI基本上我們朝向一個決策性的輔助跟原來的資料的嫁接 付表的這個建立比較不一樣後三年我們基本上要引入導入AI的一個決策性的輔助讓長官在決策上做一些AI的輔助來判斷中召委"},{"start":13305.295,"end":13320.548,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝列席官代表長次黨的說明這個我就覺得我們公務機關在編列預算上過於保守大家想想看NVIDIA的股票從去年到現在漲了多少了NVIDIA的4000晶片現在台價抬到多少了"},{"start":13321.192,"end":13342.093,"text":"那未來的人工智慧AI的一個辨識系統如果說我們用過去的三年的三千多萬去編列下一期的三年的三千多萬你們確定你們在未來的市場上這樣的規模的預算可以得到相稱的相當於當時的水準的服務嗎我舉例喔我們這個人家常常說"},{"start":13343.454,"end":13364.648,"text":"道消魔長 或者說道高一尺 魔高一丈我們現在的犯罪偵查已經是要跟犯罪集團去競爭了我們常常遇到很多實際的投入的這些人員跟我們反映我們自己官方的裝備 我們所使用的軟體我們都不如他們要對付的這些智慧型的罪犯"},{"start":13365.268,"end":13384.19,"text":"那這種情況之下AI是一個趨勢因為詐騙集團它之所以能夠這麼猖獗就是他們善用科技工具嘛他們用那樣的 譬如說他們大家再想想看接下來我們接到的詐騙電話不會是真人打的呢他哪需要再去雇那麼多的真人去打電話"},{"start":13385.543,"end":13403.614,"text":"所以這種情況如果沒有適當的裝備的提升我們等於拿實際時代的武器去對抗人家的一個數位時代所以我是一直有點疑惑說為什麼法國部過去三年的預算規模三千多萬一起未來的三年你們也是三千多萬一起那這個購買得到的預算"},{"start":13406.571,"end":13422.336,"text":"這樣的預算購買到服務的水準追得上AI的一個演變嗎我只是好奇這一點那麼也跟主席也是我是認為您的提案真的是非常重要至於要怎麼方式去敦促業務機關我是覺得希望業務機關能夠多多的說一說明"},{"start":13425.356,"end":13446.784,"text":"那這部分我就補充一下,就是再麻煩法國部,因為我剛剛有提到的幾個東西啦就是說,因為剛剛我有聽到那個法國部這邊的說法是說有製作出三千多個,兩千五百六十二件嘛但是我現在的意思是說,製作出來的書類跟後來實際使用這兩個數字是不一樣啦"},{"start":13449.707,"end":13468.88,"text":"因為你用人工智慧器生成書類的話那就是一個按鍵的問題一個按鈕按下去的問題嘛那問題是這個東西出來之後產製出來的東西檢察官好不好用因為目前我大概有問過好幾個目前事辦的是幾個地檢署的檢察官那大家普遍的"},{"start":13469.821,"end":13492.852,"text":"的說法都不是很正向所以我想要麻煩你們把這些相關的資料能夠給我一下然後數據給我一下還有就是實際能夠真正使用的書類的件數給我還有就是我剛剛提到的因為我們剛剛講到定應執行型的副表功能嘛那這個副表到底有沒有個案的犯罪時間"},{"start":13493.712,"end":13512.547,"text":"因為這個對於定運執行型非常的重要就請你們要幫我處理到另外還有一個就是成效的滿意度我想要知道一下如果成效的滿意度大家檢察官那邊的滿意度是怎麼樣還是說這東西建置好了可是其實是華而不實沒有什麼效果"},{"start":13513.348,"end":13540.126,"text":"所以這個東西我希望能夠知道一下檢察官跟書記官他的滿意度到哪裡那我們也才能夠知道說這個AI的書類的示範的這個成果是怎麼樣當然我們認為這是一個將來一定要走的一條路可是我還是要知道一下現在運作的狀況以及哪裡可以修改那這樣子才能夠推出一個比較有效果的這個東西那部長"},{"start":13542.694,"end":13552.906,"text":"謝謝主席那是不是這部分那個詳細的一個資料我們再提書面意見是不是可以併35案動50那書面意見我們會來盡快的來提出就好 但這個部分還是我們就先保留啦好不好"},{"start":13562.936,"end":13571.785,"text":"你們有意見嗎因為我想說這只是凍結啦那我也希望說我們只要看完之後我們就沒有意見啦我也希望這樣好不好"},{"start":13576.568,"end":13585.292,"text":"第五目 司法科技業務提案第三四第35案第三四案保留送協商本目凍結50萬元並針對各凍結提案的要求依審查會決議我們在處理"},{"start":13597.055,"end":13608.708,"text":"對我們剛剛已經唸了提出書面報告後折動之後繼續還是先讓大家用個餐各位委員我們先讓他們用個餐"},{"start":13610.421,"end":13631.773,"text":"可以齁 翁委員沒問題嗎我覺得這比較人道啦 天天慶人齁我看剛剛到現在都沒有休息這樣齁 我們是不是我們先用個餐然後我們一點的時候繼續審查趕快審查完大家就可以趕快回家因為上次 本週一跟昨天週三我們都是一點半嘛是不是建議主席一點半一點半啦"},{"start":13632.759,"end":13653.444,"text":"但是他們就要晚回去我想今天大家這麼認真的審查喔大家都有一個完整的一季準備好 沒關係 我沒有議價 反正我們好 怎麼樣1點半嘛 好不好因為合理的人到時間啦好 那我們就1點半再回來繼續審查好 謝謝"},{"start":18182.111,"end":18189.902,"text":"那個主席不好意思開會前我可不可以先問一下早上請他們說那個要翻譯的東西硬來法務部這邊"},{"start":18318.43,"end":18322.228,"text":"至於你可不可以看看他們要不要過來因為我們現在才差一位才能開會"},{"start":18692.107,"end":18707.704,"text":"我們繼續開會那繼續討論事項第一案14年度中央政府總議宣案法務部及所屬主管收支部分稅收部分第一項主決議部分第36至第39案不好意思第36案請問那個機關有無意見"},{"start":18716.274,"end":18739.839,"text":"好 那第三十七案依照主決議修正後文字 機關有無意見沒意見好 第三十八案依照修正文字後主決議有無意見沒意見好 那第三十九案依照修正後主決議有無意見沒意見好 那第四十案依照主決議有無意見"},{"start":18741.209,"end":18767.122,"text":"沒意見第41案測案第42案請問依照修正後主決議有意見沒有意見第43案依照主決議有意見沒意見第44案依照主決議有意見沒有意見第45案要改第45案保護部有意見"},{"start":18769.915,"end":18798.416,"text":"主席請問好 請說主席那個想請教一下因為過去在審查組決議的時候我不能理解那個因為一般如果凍結案的話通常會有提書面報告後使得凍資或者說提書面報告經同意後使得凍資那我現在看到的這個文字內容寫書面報告我可以理解就是要統計嘛那請問提供這個我們本委員會統計報告之後"},{"start":18800.56,"end":18823.769,"text":"要怎麼同意那同意有無同意的他的影響是什麼我第一次看到想就叫主席你說書面的部分還是書面他上面寫提書面報告那並經同意後這個書面報告經同意後才能我們才能引用是不是如果是專案報告的話那個有沒有同意應該是沒問題"},{"start":18825.185,"end":18849.97,"text":"那書面包括 是要經過委員會同意我們才能引用是不是因為這個是數據啊 這個之前就有提出來這個問題那我們當然就是說主席我的意思是說 因為它裡面是我們要求提供數據嘛那這個統計數據大概是我們委員就可以使用嘛"},{"start":18850.578,"end":18874.114,"text":"那如果說已經送到本委員會來的書面報告裡面有這些統治數據那我們是不是要委員會同意後我才能引用它是一個對外公開的還是不公開的還是同意後才能公開因為它的可能語意上的性質目的是什麼不太理解還是說沒有經過同意那個數據我們就不能使用"},{"start":18876.474,"end":18895.824,"text":"因為提案人是45萬對不對那45萬看提案的翁委員中委員他意思是說就並經同意這個部分這個東西有沒有一定要保留就看翁委員的意思我不是已經改成主決議了嗎對啊主決議就沒有書面報告對啊"},{"start":18906.533,"end":18924.989,"text":"我沒有寫同意啦我手上這份有就看翁委員覺得這個併金同意有沒有堅持要留下來因為我這裡是寫這個併金同意"},{"start":18929.42,"end":18942.492,"text":"所以45案就法務部有沒有意見沒有的話我們就依照修正後的主決議通過那46案到第53案請問法務部有沒有意見"},{"start":18957.93,"end":18980.626,"text":"好 那我46案就依照主決議 法務部沒意見嘛那請問第47案 依照主決議 那法務部也無意見沒意見好 那就依照主決議 那第48案 法務部也無意見沒有意見對 一樣一樣問啊好 那沒有意見 那依照主決議"},{"start":18982.462,"end":19005.82,"text":"第49案 法務部有意見 沒意見好 那就依照主決議那第50案 法務部有意見 沒意見好 那依主決議那51案 法務部有意見 沒意見好 那就依照主決議那52案 法務部有意見 沒意見好 那就依照主決議那53案 法務部有沒有意見 沒有意見好 那就依照修"},{"start":19006.96,"end":19022.211,"text":"正後主決議好那55案法務部有意見沒有意見好那就依照主決議好那第56案好那第56案法務部有意見沒有意見好依照主決議好"},{"start":19027.342,"end":19046.879,"text":"第56案改列為第12款第三項法務一研究所的主決議好第57案法務部有意見沒有意見好那就依照主決議那58案法務部有意見沒有意見好那依主決議好那59案法務部有意見沒有意見好那就依照主決議好那"},{"start":19050.834,"end":19057.54,"text":"主決議提案案號第36至59案第3640434446至5355至59案 專案通過第373839424554案 修正通過第41案 測案第12款第一項法務部處理完畢繼續處理第三項法醫研究所第二幕法醫業務提案案號第60案"},{"start":19080.785,"end":19103.963,"text":"請問第60案法務部有無意見沒有意見那就依照改組決議通過第二幕法醫業務第60案改為組決議繼續處理第12款第三項法醫研究所的組決議提案號第61案第61案"},{"start":19109.41,"end":19130.801,"text":"法務部有意見沒有意見沒有意見就依照主決議通過請說主席 詢問 再度確認一下因為剛我的56案剛有聽到黃主席有宣告說因為我的內容是請法醫研究所所以那一案56案是移到法醫研究所的主決議沒有錯吧確認一下剛剛有宣告了好 謝謝我再確認一次 謝謝好 那第"},{"start":19135.266,"end":19156.374,"text":"接下來我們審查主決議第六十一案 遭案通過 第十二款 第三項 白銀救手處理完畢繼續處理第四項 廉政署第二幕 廉政業務提案案號 第六十二案至第六十六案那第六十二案部分 洪國昌委員有沒有要補充"},{"start":19159.731,"end":19179.904,"text":"我62案的部分之前在質詢的時候我已經講過了連政署派員出國的計畫實際上面派員出國了以後實際上面的效果是什麼我必須要講我現實上面就看不到"},{"start":19181.005,"end":19209.462,"text":"特別是我進一步的看你們出國的計畫回來跑去考察什麼立陶宛然後跑去考察什麼IPAC反貪腐然後前面全部都是在講對吹哨者保護法所獲得的啟示我那時候在選答的時候我就一直問啊然後呢然後呢搞到我們在審吹哨者保護法的時候問主管機關的立場一句話都不敢講"},{"start":19211.974,"end":19240.5,"text":"一句話都不敢講最後是本院的委員幫你們實現你們長久以來所跳票的政見出國考察考察了一堆缺少者保護法報告裡面寫了得到重大的啟示回來國內了以後"},{"start":19242.481,"end":19263.228,"text":"真正要發作具體的行動的時候根本沒看見這樣的出國考察有何意義所以我提案全部刪除請問法務部這邊有什麼意見要補充嗎是不是可以請廉政署來說明一下麻煩署長"},{"start":19265.214,"end":19286.654,"text":"主席先跟委員報告先我們的這個洁癖者保護法三讀通過那未來的這個半年內在這個適應細則的部分我們會努力的去落實跟宣導這是第一個部分連任署在洁癖者保護法這件事情在洁癖者保護我們相信我們會盡很大的努力那第二個就是說"},{"start":19288.596,"end":19310.357,"text":"有關於這個出國的這個考察他不是針對於接避者保護法去做考察事實上我們的這一這個156萬的一個這個經費之中以去年113年的部分來看我們已經針對了8萬塊錢做了一個遵截那我們的去年的113萬的部分的一個出國的部分我們其實"},{"start":19311.198,"end":19337.631,"text":"是有這個47萬的部分是做教育的一個訓練總共有4個人次那再來的其他的這個94的部分他也有去參加立陶宛的這個國際會議之外他也從有兩次是到這個秘魯的部分去參加那個APEC會議所以我們今年的114年度的編列的預算之中他有兩次參加那個亞太的APEC的會議那跟委員特別報告是說"},{"start":19338.411,"end":19360.841,"text":"其實這樣的一個國際會議我們去參加因為我們雖然不是聯合國的會員國可是我們很努力的在做聯合國的一個會員國的規定的相關的工作那去參加那個會議可以去跟周邊的國家做很多國際上的一個交流跟反貪腐交流經驗的增加他不是說單一性說是針對於洁癖者保護法考察的這樣的一個效果"},{"start":19361.261,"end":19384.369,"text":"那也希望說委員可以支持我們上面的國際合作那在一個部分上JPG的部分我們也會很努力啦請委員是不是可以支持好 總召委好 主席我們也請教廉政署我看了一下你們預算書在你們單位預算的第57頁的確這是一個派員出國"},{"start":19388.086,"end":19404.926,"text":"的計畫那因為剛剛也跟主席也先做一個一個建議因為一般國外旅費我們都是通案處理那這裡面的有些數字我想進一步請教的因為你們這樣的一個出國計畫是列的很清楚總共是"},{"start":19407.849,"end":19421.123,"text":"12項或者說是12人,因為你們有12人跟天嘛那有一個人是去訪問,7個人去開會一個人是談判,三個人是進修,都是到國外那預計停留的時間累計大概是196人天那麼"},{"start":19424.471,"end":19441.596,"text":"在上個年度呢你們合訂的部分是197人天跟去年差不多啦那去年度的預算數是164萬3千元那今年呢是稍微少一點156萬1千元那但是我看了一下你們的預算數"},{"start":19444.737,"end":19469.453,"text":"不太理解為什麼只差一個人天那麼相關的預算我對了一下你們主要是進修啦進修三人的三個人的那個項目你們人天是一樣但是我不太理解為什麼人天相同可是你們的預算是減少的我再講一次在進修那個項目下"},{"start":19470.424,"end":19489.011,"text":"我們有三項然後109人天然後本年度是編了43萬8那去年度你們也是109人天編的是52萬雖然數額差別不多但是看起來你們似乎都是跟去年度的"},{"start":19490.379,"end":19513.65,"text":"內容差不多那其實我們委員會過去的審查都會很關注不希望機關是剪貼貼上去的啦所以我們都會希望說每年的預算都是按照實際上去發生而不是跟去年照抄不過也不能說你們照抄因為真的是單價不一樣能不能說明一下"},{"start":19515.758,"end":19540.598,"text":"好 請法務部說明跟委員報告就是說我們這個出國的去做訓練它是有地點的不同對 像去年113年度的裡面有奧地利跟泰國那我們現在的這個地點上的一個差異所以我們會把經費上去做一些調整就是說有些地方還沒有那麼確定但是我們認為這一次可能可以稍微減少一點所以我們把那個費用稍微降低一點"},{"start":19544.476,"end":19572.027,"text":"所以你們去年去的地方很明確但是今年要去的地方還不確定但是你們確定會比去年少一點點就對了這個評估也是很有意思就是說因為去年的那個地方裡面奧地利這確實比較貴啦那我們今年評估的地點可能會是比較偏向亞洲區的一個地方所以說會比較便宜一點所以我們自己有刪一些啦OK是好那我還是有點主席可以追問嗎因為怎麼算吼"},{"start":19573.123,"end":19586.454,"text":"如果那個計畫項目是三項計畫還是三個人三項計畫那就沒錯那就沒問題了因為如果是三個人人天不會乘出109人天那就沒事了"},{"start":19588.783,"end":19610.676,"text":"那第62案那個因為提案人剛剛有說了他認為這部分還是必須要減那100萬那請問郭委員有不同意見我不同意見我覺得已經比去年順捷了好那如果這樣的話那我們62案就保留好第63案請問一下法務部有意見63案"},{"start":19623.114,"end":19644.1,"text":"就是那個經同意那邊就刪除掉對啦,就把它拿掉法務部有無意見?沒有意見那就依照修正後通過那第64案請問法務部有無意見?沒有意見那就是改動50萬元動50萬"},{"start":19650.413,"end":19674.774,"text":"所以機關已經同意動50萬了應該是吧,因為這個應該是你們都談好了嘛我們可不可以知道原因第64案嘛當然我們尊重提案委員,也尊重機關代表那我們只是想要了解一下,基於什麼樣的理由可以簡單的說明嗎?那個是廉政署,是不是請廉政署說"},{"start":19682.859,"end":19704.311,"text":"關於64案的說明就是說我們在這個綠能的一個部分事實上來講我們今年度我們在綠能的部分在房攤跟宿攤的部分我們都會非常努力去做我們在宿攤的部分有跟最高檢的這個專案上其實在去年度也有七個案件跟調查局一起合作的綠能案件的一個偵辦"},{"start":19705.612,"end":19725.408,"text":"那麼在房攤的部分也跟高檢署這邊有這個有關於綠能的廉政平台的一個這個部分的一個實施當然我們希望是說我們的預算可以說這個就是完整那不過如果說是動結50萬的話我們會在這個將提供詳細的措施跟執行規劃的書面報告後去給委員中央還有好好謝謝那"},{"start":19736.138,"end":19760.218,"text":"好那64案部分那如果沒有問題的話那我們就依照改動50萬元通過那第65案請問沒意見那我們依照修正後的主決議通過那66案請問有意見是那個同意同意是不是可以對那個就刪掉所以說修改後的"},{"start":19761.175,"end":19780.211,"text":"那這樣就沒意見好那第66案有意見沒意見好那我們依照修正後的主決議通過那第67案60到66看一下對到66那第二幕連任業務提案案號第63至第66案636566改為主決議第62案保留送協商"},{"start":19789.133,"end":19794.718,"text":"然後本目凍結50萬元並針對凍結提案的要求並審查會決議提出書面報告後 使得凍資繼續處理第12款第4項連政署的主決議提案案號第67號好 那請問一下第67號"},{"start":19810.25,"end":19829.555,"text":"案號 請問法務部這邊有沒有意見 沒意見沒意見 那我們就依照主決議通過那主決議第67案 照案通過第12款第4項廉政署處理完畢繼續處理第5項矯正署及所屬第一幕一般行政 第二案號第68號第68號請問翁曉琳委員有無補充"},{"start":19837.714,"end":19855.373,"text":"本人這次針對矯正署署長的特別費我在這裡的提案就是要全刪最主要的理由其實這也是本人之前在這兩個會期一再強調的"},{"start":19860.114,"end":19882.188,"text":"對於受刑人陳水扁他已經保外就醫十年可是我們的小鎮署毫無作為台中監獄也是一樣只是憑藉著醫生的證明也不去實際的查核到底陳水扁他"},{"start":19883.368,"end":19909.951,"text":"身體的恢復狀況如何這明眼人都知道他已經活蹦亂跳在外面從事各式各樣的活動甚至還參加總統就職大典那麼在這樣子的一個情況之下矯正署竟然還可以視若無睹我本身認為矯正署署長"},{"start":19912.022,"end":19938.223,"text":"他在針對受刑人保外就醫這件事情差別待遇沒有嚴謹作為一個監督機關首長之責所以提案刪除他的特別費好 那總召委這條我怎麼翻了 開玩笑台語的台語 翻了翻了 保留保留好 總召委有要補充嗎"},{"start":19940.95,"end":19965.285,"text":"我覺得這個案子的理由是有需要進一步釐清那我先陳述一下就是說其實我記得美市矯正署在說明相關的保外就醫人員的情況收容人的情況都會就該監獄本身只要符合規定就以該監獄的決定來作為說明那我不曉得"},{"start":19966.646,"end":19994.733,"text":"類似所有的保外就醫案件是否都要呈送到矯正署這點我是不太理解啦那如果能夠說明是最好不過如果主席覺得我們下午的時間要更快的推進我也會支持莊委員的保留的建議但是還是很好奇到底我們那麼多的收容人那保外就醫的情況是否都要到矯正署來做一個最後的定奪我是有點疑惑啦"},{"start":19997.194,"end":20018.343,"text":"張偉我來說明一下 其實我可以理解但是我們常常在外面看到的是一個表象有時候受刑人面對媒體的時候都很倔強尤其是你沒有當總統你如果當過總統的話 開什麼玩笑那個心情落差會很大實際上有時候面對媒體的時候好像是維持一個"},{"start":20019.163,"end":20035.412,"text":"過去想像想到的是以前當總統其實有時候你看他的身體狀況因為我跟他有接觸我很清楚啦跟實際上的情況大家所看到的是不一樣啦所以這個把他歸咎給矯正署可能也不太公平啦 以上好 請問法務部有沒有補充那個好 法務部請說我請矯正署來補充好 麻煩署長"},{"start":20049.249,"end":20066.884,"text":"跟委員報告針對委員歷史的指教我們會檢討監督措施針對成員的督管措施再來做強化避免再發生類似的爭議行為"},{"start":20069.746,"end":20087.222,"text":"那另外因為署長的特別會是主要用於我們的同仁的犒賞是所以是不是請委員替曾佐免以刪除我們改為主決議提書面報告 以上好 翁委員"},{"start":20092.169,"end":20115.416,"text":"我非常支持這個主管要對辛苦的同仁犒賞這犒賞您也可以發自內心您也可以自己買禮物送給他們不需要透過特資費啦如果說真的同仁那麼辛苦的話該請客就請客就像我請客我也不會說是用這個立法院的什麼公務費去請客對不對那重要的就是說你們現在這個主管監督出了問題嘛"},{"start":20118.936,"end":20122.942,"text":"那麼全台灣有哪一個受刑人是可以保外就醫10年的這個我也支持如果說是這個賴總統認為陳水扁他應該考驗這個"},{"start":20135.629,"end":20157.526,"text":"考慮到他過去擔任總統這些年來的一些辛苦作為他要給他大赦那也沒有問題給他特赦可是現在他就是一個受刑人受刑人就是既然在保外就醫這理論上他都是要重病不能夠去參加這麼多的活動"},{"start":20159.142,"end":20166.957,"text":"可是他還要參加活動尤其是上次署長說還要考慮到他的職能恢復這讓我覺得實在是不可思議"},{"start":20168.533,"end":20192.396,"text":"如果這樣的話是不是我們現在在這個獄中的很多的受刑人你都應該讓他保外就醫啊要考慮到他這個未來的職能的恢復盡量的安排給他各式各樣的社交活動這不是更有利於這個受刑人這未來重返社會的時候可以很快的融入社會對不對這個就是差別待遇差別待遇其實台中監獄"},{"start":20195.338,"end":20209.608,"text":"我這裡有提到76案也是刪除台中監獄檢獄長的特別費基本上台中監獄到底有沒有好好的去檢視"},{"start":20211.443,"end":20232.254,"text":"陳水扁這個案子呢本席過去也跟台中監獄跟矯正署有要求他們要提供就檢水扁去探望陳水扁所有的報告書啊都沒有啊都沒有書面報告口頭報告也這就都說只是去口頭然後去看一看那實際狀況怎麼樣都沒有書面報告給我每一次喔因為我認為實在是太放縱了啦對不對作為一個"},{"start":20242.385,"end":20260.494,"text":"一個典譽矯正機關不可以這樣的差別待遇要就是一視同仁所以我這裡就順便連76案一起講同樣的道理就刪減這個首長的特別費以上"},{"start":20262.881,"end":20282.714,"text":"那這個部分,請問一下就第68案,我們翁曉琳委員提案3減21萬7千元,請問各位委員是否有,是否同意?保留,有意見,好那既然大家意見不一,那我們就第68案我們就以保留,好"},{"start":20286.624,"end":20306.034,"text":"第一幕一般行政第68案保留送協商接著處理第二幕矯正業務第69案至第76案那69至第76那請問黃國昌委員就本幕的你的提案有沒有先補充說明"},{"start":20307.959,"end":20335.704,"text":"69案的提案我說明一下我那時候2020年離開立法院以後我自己在回到台灣公民社會以公益皆必遇罪者保護協會當作中心其實在處理很多公益的案件69案是讓我最深惡痛絕裡面其中的一樣我們的政府說要打詐說要防詐騙"},{"start":20337.578,"end":20363.878,"text":"結果有一個傢伙都已經什麼都已經被判刑了關在高雄二監竟然可以在高雄二監裡面繼續遙控外面的人繼續搞詐騙我簡直是難以想像結果搞了半天啊原來是買通我們監所的人員"},{"start":20365.547,"end":20393.093,"text":"幫他傳遞他所有的指令出去啊那個時候我收到檢舉的時候啊我看的是瞠目結舌啊所以我在 他直接啊那個叫做台灣巴菲特的 叫周瑞慶那個騙子非法吸金41億在裡面傳出去的信寫什麼啊我現在在裡面要打通關啊我就算裡面還沒通啊這對我很重要 要通我才好做事啊"},{"start":20394.657,"end":20413.084,"text":"這裡不是家裡,我要搞定大委的不要出錯這是大家要的,有代價換的這是我做公關的工具我剛念的那個,都不是我編出來的因為我接到的檢舉信我都拿到了錄音筆我也拿得到的我還派了一隊人跑去高雄為了要查證這件事情發現檢舉的人講的通通都是真的"},{"start":20425.66,"end":20453.515,"text":"但沒有人敢去跟檢調檢舉大家都怕得要死啊原來我們的巴菲 台灣巴菲特啊在監獄裡面可以打通關啊在監獄裡面非法吸金41億啊透過不肖的監所管理人遙控外面的詐騙集團繼續詐騙詐騙的人是哪些人教戰守則寫得很清楚啊"},{"start":20454.54,"end":20461.002,"text":"要找教育程度低的 好騙啊要找年紀 年齡大的 好騙啊都是在找社會的底層 在騙我昨天收政了好幾個月我拜託高雄地檢那邊 趕快行動我說得很清楚 你們拖得越久 被害的人就越多"},{"start":20485.097,"end":20487.318,"text":"拖得越久 被害人就越多那時候還安排了一堆證人跑去地檢署作證我不知道我們的剿證署的官員到底在幹嘛監所可以管成這個樣子喔那個不是受刑人在裡面小小的違規啊不是受刑人在裡面什麼抽抽菸啊"},{"start":20514.858,"end":20518.339,"text":"不是那個層次的事情啦關在監獄裡面繼續遙控外面的詐騙集團 繼續詐騙啊繳證署難辭其咎我也沒有砍很多啊1億95千多萬三減一千萬中稍委"},{"start":20544.421,"end":20570.437,"text":"主席我跟主席來請教一下我這邊拿到的預算書它這邊寫30頁因為那我看的是30頁目前我們才能是第二目矯正業務那矯正業務它這裡面的經費預算金額我讀了一下有點訝異因為它是單位是千元那我們看到了它這個數字是不是有誤"},{"start":20572.229,"end":20592.871,"text":"因為這讀起來是一百五十七億四千四百八十萬三千元這個數字我真的很疑問因為我一直在用心看提案委員他講的一億九千零七那是在底下的第三辦理矯正行政業務是指這個"},{"start":20594.66,"end":20608.395,"text":"所以沒有錯啦,我先確認一下,是指這一個啦好,那就這個部分我就準就,我怕我講錯了因為我這邊看的內容因為之前,那我就確認這個數字沒有錯,我就開始表示意見了"},{"start":20609.676,"end":20623.955,"text":"那麼因為矯正署的主要目的呢這裡面有很多收容人那麼有的在看守所有的在監獄那監獄的是受刑人目的是透過矯正讓他們可以復歸社會那我們都知道啊"},{"start":20624.636,"end":20641.89,"text":"其實就一個社會的治安的維持來講其實就警察也知道有一些治安人口也就是說有前科的或者是說漁犯所以呢一般有限的警力要如何維持社會治安他們會鎖定比較高風險的族群進行必要的"},{"start":20642.611,"end":20667.187,"text":"一個管制那同樣的一個社會如果要讓這個社會減少犯罪或受害者那犯罪人口呢其實以目前矯正署所屬的這寓所他們管理的人基本上就是我們這個社會當中已經發生了也是風險最高的那其實我們在評估矯正署的業務它的成效其實要看的是"},{"start":20668.356,"end":20692.717,"text":"他的再犯率那如果說收容的人數少那表示社會的治安好那如果說收容人出來之後更生人他沒有再犯那表示我們的矯正成效是卓越的因為你對這些對社會治安已經證明罪有危害的人進到了一個教化讓他復歸社會不會再犯這是最有效打擊犯罪的手法"},{"start":20693.459,"end":20700.047,"text":"那麼與其去預防新的犯罪發生那個不知道在哪裡潛在的犯罪人口在哪裡"},{"start":20701.156,"end":20724.285,"text":"對於已經犯罪在接受授堅執行的人能夠避免他出獄之後復發這是最有效的方式所以矯正署本來就應該要投入必要的資源去完成他的目的那因此我們對於他所使用的預算的概念上並不是要去給那些在一般的觀念犯錯被關 是在接受懲罰"},{"start":20725.385,"end":20752.206,"text":"那不是要給懲罰的人享受用的而是要幫助社會投入資源讓這些人出獄後不要再犯這是社會付出的一種預防性的成本防止他再犯那這個錢我們在意的是再犯率的高低那現在我們看到了如果是在監獄管理上的一些個案一些老鼠死一些為非作歹聯合勾串"},{"start":20752.686,"end":20776.747,"text":"然後呢去協助受刑人或收容人為非作歹這與法絕對不容絕對要揪出來但是這個是發生在我們的預證管理而不是在相關的預證上的投資所以我是覺得這個部分法務部或矯正署要清楚的說明剛剛提案人所指示的該案是否相關的人等都已經接受到法律的制裁或必要的調查"},{"start":20777.668,"end":20806.761,"text":"那是否已經相關人都已經繩之以法那這樣的事情未來會不會減少發生那麼這才是他的治本之道就是預證的管理如果是發生在人的身上應該從人去解決但是預證的投資是社會上用我們納稅人的錢去防止這些高風險的人未來出獄後再犯對社會來講那個是最有效的投資我再強調一次我們對於潛在的不知名的即將會發生的犯罪人口我們不知道"},{"start":20807.481,"end":20830.339,"text":"我們不是關鍵報告裡面的那個Tom Cruise我們可以預知犯罪發生我們只能就已經犯罪的人設法讓他以後不再犯罪這樣的投資成本效益是最高的所以我認為這樣的預證投資跟預證管理的缺失必須區分出來到底是人緣良又不齊管理上的問題我們就對症效要將這些人施以必要的處罰"},{"start":20831.34,"end":20833.642,"text":"但是對預證的投資 拿預證的投資的減少來作為預證管理缺失的一個要方顯然方法跟目的不太相對應所以我還是呼籲我們審查預算不是用三減預算 減減預算來作為懲罰"},{"start":20849.274,"end":20870.83,"text":"對於業務單位表現不佳的一種處罰而是要了解這個預算執行的效能有沒有發揮那預算執行的效能有沒有發揮還是要區分是我們的設備投資人員的投入有不足還是說使用方法不當但是如果是個案式的人模不彰那麼這些特定的人模不彰就應該被抓出來處罰"},{"start":20872.051,"end":20899.389,"text":"防止它再發生而非去拿預算來作為一個解決問題的方法我還是在想解決發生問題而不是去處理預算來作為一個當然我也同意作為預算編測我們的主管機關要更加努力這也是一個方法在很多機關我們會用這個方法但是我很好奇如果簡列一千萬那如果矯正署他就一千萬不執行"},{"start":20900.53,"end":20919.411,"text":"那有辦法達到要他改正預政管理上人模不章的部分的這些弊案缺失嗎是不是請機關列席機關能夠說明一下先請黃委員提問尊重宗嘉斌委員剛剛的發言按照宗嘉斌委員的論理其實很簡單"},{"start":20921.206,"end":20936.355,"text":"搞出來這種事啊預算還不能處理啊處理就是讓他以後做更不好啊順著這個邏輯啊那預算通通都不要刪啊我預算審查的立場很清楚啊出現這種爛事啊要有consequence預算管理出了這麼嚴重的包剛剛莊家兵委員是說最高的目標是出獄後不要再犯嘛"},{"start":20950.427,"end":20955.649,"text":"所以很好啊現在的問題是什麼現在的問題是在牢裡面啊不僅繼續犯啊損害繼續擴大被害人繼續增加不是預診管理出了問題會發生這種事嗎站在被害人的立場到底誰要負責啊到底誰要負責啊"},{"start":20978.683,"end":21004.669,"text":"如果不是今天育盛管理除了這麼嚴重的事情在高雄地區那邊被詐騙的銀髮族無辜的受害人要找誰討公道要找誰討公道剛剛莊委員說是不是全部的人都有神之以法我老實講我不知道因為只抓了一個人只抓了一個人"},{"start":21009.537,"end":21027.504,"text":"只有那位無姓的監所管理員被抓了他一個人就搞定我老實講我還是冒很大的問號當初巴菲特在監獄裡面說我要搞定大尾的啊那個無姓管理員是大尾的喔我要搞定大尾的啊我才好辦事啊高雄地檢 橋頭地檢怎麼去辦的"},{"start":21039.574,"end":21065.87,"text":"那是檢察官辦案能力的問題啊但我對於最後的結論只抓一個姓吳的監所管理員他自己幹的出來這種事我是充滿了問號但我可以確定的事情是什麼如果今天不是在監獄裡面遇證腐敗成這個樣子高雄那邊啊不會增加這麼多的被害人現在這些被害人要找誰討公道"},{"start":21069.858,"end":21098.531,"text":"好 後部有無補充可以請教政署來好 麻煩組長謝謝委員那個先針對吳妍她的究責部分做個簡單報告那麼吳妍在112年的11月14號經懲戒法院可以撤職並停止任用兩年另外經橋頭地方法院判刑六年"},{"start":21099.471,"end":21111.925,"text":"那他本人已經在113年的11月19號到高雄監獄執行那當然我們矯正署也以這個案件為借鏡"},{"start":21114.908,"end":21136.744,"text":"針對我們的強化紀律跟建物管理效能實施計畫再做強化另外執行擴大跟突擊安檢另外加強風險控管跟內控機制等這些措施以上希望說是不是見景明與山簡好那"},{"start":21142.867,"end":21165.712,"text":"就請問一下那69案的部分郭委員有無意見同意嗎好那黃委員還要補充嗎那69案如果大家意見不一我們是不是就保留誰意見不一啊要按麥克風講啊說要保留的人就喊保留啊剛莊委員離開了那"},{"start":21168.168,"end":21195.865,"text":"我同意莊委員的所以莊委員你的意思是你同意莊委員剛剛保留的說法嗎好那各位還有沒有其他意見說明一下我們保留我們是支持要對育政管理痛下針鞭所有相關涉嫌人等一定要受到制裁那這當中我比較重視的是作為署長是作為典育長本身他們在行政督導上的責任"},{"start":21197.185,"end":21208.021,"text":"這要被追究的是這個責任抱歉署長不因為你今天列席說明預算我認為機關的預算跟你個人的承擔這是兩件事情機關少一千萬的預算減一千萬預算執行說不定對公務機關來講"},{"start":21212.367,"end":21232.157,"text":"少執行預算不見得比較不好執行預算是有壓力的少執行的預算到底是誰在承擔這個預算減少的一個後果我們都知道在目前的收容人當中預鎖的硬體環境我還再強調一點一旦被判刑"},{"start":21233.001,"end":21248.082,"text":"他就應該付出他應有的失去自由就是他應付出的代價這是很明顯的這是我們刑法的目的之一但是我們要他付出代價的同時我們也要設法讓他能夠復歸社會避免日後再犯"},{"start":21248.923,"end":21267.668,"text":"這樣的一個情況之下,對於預所預算的執行必須清楚的去區分哪些是要去落實執行讓收容人或受刑人未來在這些投資上可以幫助他富貴社會的哪些弊案是因為主管應有的責任未被追究,這是兩件事情"},{"start":21268.288,"end":21288.335,"text":"所以這個案子我之所以同意剛剛莊委所保留我是相對的在發言特別要求法務部以及講長證署對於本案相關有人謀不章的部分一定要徹查到底甚至因為我們也不能再提這個組決議了因為我這裡沒有提案不然我是希望說有組決議的內容應該要求這樣的一個責任要被追究"},{"start":21294.329,"end":21314.991,"text":"好那所以就69案的部分大家意見不一致嘛那69案的部分我們就予以保留那各位有不同意見沒有關係啊就有人喊保留就保留嘛反正我們就到院會去處理嘛對啊那要就是我還是一樣啦"},{"start":21316.195,"end":21338.445,"text":"主席在主持會議的時候 主持的方式我都尊重那我們在這個委員會裡面有執政黨的委員要幫行政部門喊保留 那就保留那我們就到院會裡面去做處理好 謝謝黃委員那69案的部分我們就與保留那第70案 請問黃委員有沒有要補充"},{"start":21340.271,"end":21369.101,"text":"這其實案喔上面一個案子是高雄監獄啊現在是台北監獄啊差不多相類似的時候離譜的不得了啊那裡面是有幫派份子啊裡面是有幫派份子直接用手機可以用啊直接用手機可以用啊我這影像我都全部截圖出來了我截圖出來了以後交給台北地檢署的檢察官去查"},{"start":21370.55,"end":21386.059,"text":"結果查了半天 什麼都沒有查到查了半天 什麼都沒查到另案去查的時候 查到了什麼查到了金門高良酒 白蘭地洋酒行動電話 收費 敗話預證一模一樣的事情"},{"start":21396.755,"end":21424.549,"text":"但相對而言在台北監獄這件事情我為什麼這麼深惡痛絕我非常討厭組織犯罪我非常討厭組織犯罪過去這幾年為了組織犯罪的事情我投入了非常多的時間結果呢我們的預證管理在幹什麼讓幫派分子把手機藏在一個地方"},{"start":21426.308,"end":21432.47,"text":"讓裡面的大哥繼續可以去遙控外面的組織犯罪我敢這樣子講是因為我連截圖都有了應該在監獄裡面的人竟然拿手機打電話出來跟外面的人繼續的遙控組織犯罪獄政是敗壞獄政是敗壞"},{"start":21455.575,"end":21456.857,"text":"令人難以想像一樣啊在這個矯正行政啊的向下1億9000 06億7萬3.1千萬好 了解 那那個莊昭偉"},{"start":21475.257,"end":21496.474,"text":"主席剛剛69案提案委員有他的看法那麼陳儒提案委員常用的我都予以尊重但是70案跟69案的邏輯我就不通了我就搞不懂了因為我們在明明在這1億9千零7萬5千元的預算向下他有分了至少有分業務費有分"},{"start":21498.218,"end":21524.154,"text":"設備及投資有分獎補助三個大項那今天一個弊案我都很贊成揭弊那也覺得有人勇於揭弊可以列入以他的終身職志去努力那今天我們在預證的管理上裡面有弊端當然也是我們要把它揭發出來的那如果以一弊一罰那現在顯然的有委員提案委員在審預算的時候就一弊罰一千萬"},{"start":21525.482,"end":21533.976,"text":"那兩個弊案就罰兩千萬三個弊案就罰三千萬這樣的一個審列預算的邏輯我就不能理解了"},{"start":21534.96,"end":21555.11,"text":"一個是台北監獄 一個是台中監獄那很好啊 具體明確啊台北監獄該誰負責啊 台中監獄該誰負責啊那麼這個我們還有監察院存在啊那如果有人認為監察權不夠使用 不服使用要自己跳下來調查使用那麼現在呢 也有委員在立法院裡面成立調查委員會啊"},{"start":21556.05,"end":21570.298,"text":"那既然有明確的對象可以追查弊案就勇於使用職權去行使那目前呢我比較擔心的是當不明就裡的去檢列一千萬的時候我就好奇的要問機關代表你們是打算去檢列業務費從業務費當中的"},{"start":21573.34,"end":21593.062,"text":"一億四千三百九十四萬去減劣還是你們要從設備級投資的兩千六百七十一萬去減劣還是你們要從獎補助費的一千九百四十一萬一千元去減劣這些減劣之後的效果是不一樣的比如說我看你們獎補助費你們是鼓勵矯正收容人念空中大學的獎金"},{"start":21593.802,"end":21600.628,"text":"是鼓勵對於提供給矯正機關經濟不利的收容人的一些記住費用那這樣的獎補租費要刪嗎?要減劣嗎?"},{"start":21604.485,"end":21624.314,"text":"那這個如果說我們放任就是說這個項目統三一千科目的自行調整那我們的審查機關那萬一讓放任主管機關他這樣去把這個獎補助惠一千九百四十一萬減列一千萬剩九百四十一萬那我們要對於那些經濟不利的處境的受容能的救助就沒有了啊"},{"start":21625.214,"end":21640.928,"text":"那這個我們省列預算我們難道是這個目的嗎又或者說你的設備及投資去改善矯正機關的各項設備的汰換跟購置目前我們的寓所的收容人的情況很多都人滿為患不是說要給他們特別舒適的待遇"},{"start":21641.548,"end":21659.546,"text":"但是基本上一個人道的待遇的維持跟環境的投資設備有關還包括在COVID-19期間我就曾經到獄所去了解獄所在確保收容人他的身心健康安全他們必須在有限的經費之下去確保不會做一個群聚感染"},{"start":21660.608,"end":21672.546,"text":"這個都是需要投資的但是如果很明確的告訴我們說這個業務會當中一共有幾項一共有我這邊看了一下一共有10個項目10個項目裡面第7項還有12款"},{"start":21675.911,"end":21691.164,"text":"在一般事務費裡面那我一直在找出說那到底這個檢列的這一千萬放在哪裡能夠避免這樣同樣的事情在發生我是很希望眾矢機關代表同意檢列一千萬或同意檢列多少至少要告訴我們"},{"start":21691.724,"end":21709.156,"text":"你們覺得這樣的預算要放在哪裡檢列方能達到委員他提案的目的跟效果我們才能理解不然的話檢列一千萬三道不該三的地方反而枉費了我們希望這些受刑人出獄之後能夠復歸社會這個有效的壓低減少社會所受的風險好那這樣子法務部有沒有要補充什麼矯正署署長有沒有補充"},{"start":21720.998,"end":21728.626,"text":"請說"},{"start":21731.862,"end":21758.752,"text":"兩位我們管理人員一個黃姓一個李姓都已經被判刑被各判2年然後反刑5年分別要向國庫支付30萬元跟20萬元另外比較有涉及到的同仁一樣給予相當的行政懲處總共有24位同仁受到行政懲處"},{"start":21761.634,"end":21775.339,"text":"我們這些跟69案一樣這些經費的編類其實都是有實際的運作包括危機處理小組的運作各項設施設備汰換及購置還有矯正機關的資訊安全"},{"start":21779.621,"end":21806.091,"text":"包括受刑人自主境外作業的管理還有性侵收容人的治療輔導毒品危害防治的相關業務還有經濟不利處境這些比較貧窮的受刑人的技術費用那所以這些如果被刪減掉真的很多運作實務運作會停頓下來所以以上建請不要刪減"},{"start":21808.314,"end":21827.305,"text":"謝謝我想這個應該跟剛剛那個編號69號的狀況一樣嘛一樣嘛是是來請問一下那各位委員就黃國昌委員所提出簡列一千萬部分各位有意見有意見我希望明列簡列的項目不然就保留"},{"start":21828.595,"end":21846.57,"text":"好那這樣子我看如果說大家意見不一的話那我們就第69案部分就予以保留第73部分就予以保留不好意思好那接下來我們審查第71案那71案的部分呢取消簡列改動200萬及書面報告請問翁曉琳委員有沒有要補充"},{"start":21851.108,"end":21862.174,"text":"其實我這邊的看法跟之前黃國昌委員的看法是一樣都認為說其實矯正署的內部的控管機制出了極大的問題包含我後面還有提也是要刪減這個矯正署一千萬的這個經費那現在不管是他內部的管理"},{"start":21867.516,"end":21886.293,"text":"還有包含對於受刑人的這個差別待遇就像我剛剛說的像對這個受刑人陳水扁就特別好但是呢在74案裡面我這裡有特別講到就監察院的報告也是對於這個矯正署裡面其實還是有些在監獄裡面還是有些受刑人"},{"start":21886.633,"end":21903.859,"text":"他其實他的已經生病非常嚴重了但是仍然是很難能夠申請到保外醫治等要出來的時候很快就會往生了所以就整個的管理勢必是要進行大幅度的檢討因此在71案這邊我後來"},{"start":21906.442,"end":21924.075,"text":"他們跟我說了就是我大概這裡就是凍結200萬那麼在74案的部分我現在就一併講不好意思跟召委報告一聲就是我這裡74案我這裡有提就是要刪減這個矯正業務就是針對矯正業務底下辦理矯正醫療及訓練業務的部分的話我這裡也是提的就是減劣1000萬然後凍結3000萬以上"},{"start":21936.323,"end":21961.04,"text":"好 那第七十一案部分喔 這個機關有意見七十一案 同意 已經談好了嘛好 那就七十一案的部分呢 我們就改動兩百萬然後再請你們要出書面報告好 那我們現在審查第七十二案第七十二案 請問這個是改組決議嗎"},{"start":21963.442,"end":21986.081,"text":"好 那請問機關有無意見 七十二案沒有意見好 那沒有意見的話總統府一定要補充嗎如果沒有的話 好 那就依照修正後主決議通過那七十三案 請問機關有無意見沒有意見好 沒有意見 我們依照修正後的主決議通過那七十四案 請問翁曉林委員有無補充"},{"start":21987.609,"end":22005.421,"text":"剛剛已經談過了就是針對矯正署它內部的管理還有其實過去也檢視監察院的報告書裡面對於受刑人其實都已經呈現這個病情非常嚴重的狀況但是都還只是戒護外衣"},{"start":22006.82,"end":22023.049,"text":"不太能夠獲得保外醫治的資格那相較於就受刑人陳水扁來講這個簡直是天壤之別由此可見矯正署的保外醫治的審查制度是出了嚴重的問題所以我這裡就提出要刪減一千萬然後凍結三千萬好那就這個部分請問機關有意見補充"},{"start":22035.645,"end":22054.875,"text":"是報告委員有關相關的保外醫治其實我們對於每一個受選人是一樣的一體適用那包括說我們一般來講會會持保外醫治就是說他在"},{"start":22055.735,"end":22082.237,"text":"社會有犯罪這個當然要把他廢止保外醫治但是如果他只是違反相關的規定我們要看情節情節輕微的一般不管是誰我們會給他發函督促他要注意要改善如果他不改善或是他的情節嚴重我們當然依相關規定還是會廢止他的保外"},{"start":22083.829,"end":22104.71,"text":"那另外這個我們編列的這些預算就是相關的被凍結或是檢列的話包括我們家暴受刑人的輔導治療藥酒藥飲收容人的諮商輔導還有收容人的X光性傳染病的篩檢等等"},{"start":22105.931,"end":22126.577,"text":"還有我們矯正機關的科技設備的一些輔製監控也好科技安全網的監製設的計畫都沒有辦法太換老舊監控系統這個對於將來智慧建議的建制會有非常大的影響所以建請免以刪除以上 謝謝中召委"},{"start":22128.326,"end":22146.506,"text":"主席其實我個人對於我們提案委員的用心良苦我是滿於肯定跟體察因為他這裡面說到其實在間的受刑人有些高齡或有病痛那麼也只能戒護外衣那麼能不能受到健康妥善的照顧我個人非常認同"},{"start":22147.467,"end":22168.005,"text":"我們在受刑人矯正期間必須予以他健康上基本的照顧那目前呢我在看了這個這個檢列案的內容還是一個跟剛剛的疑惑因為這個在我們預算書第三十三頁矯正署的預算三十三頁他的這個第五目他辦理矯正醫療這裡很清楚的列出了醫療及訓練業務總共"},{"start":22170.627,"end":22193.081,"text":"九億七千九百四十二萬五千元當中有分別有業務費四億六有設備及投資五億一那我想這當中可能在細項來看各個業務費當中有通訊、兼職、酬金事務費、國內旅費等等那這裡面我特別注意到可能跟提案委員關心的特別提到說按日計"},{"start":22193.982,"end":22207.312,"text":"按日案件計酬酬金1590萬7千元他其中的有一小款就是委請特約醫師及監任醫師看診所需的診療費用1828萬6千元"},{"start":22210.094,"end":22237.603,"text":"我覺得這應該就是提案委員關心的我們要去關注收容人他的健康情況我們必須給予基本應有的醫療但是由於這樣的醫療的提供顯然提案委員認為並沒有辦法普及照顧到所有的受刑人所以應該要予以改善所以我相信是不是可以跟提案委員有一個建議就是說因為如果簡略了我不曉得叫我剛剛一個發言的意旨"},{"start":22239.886,"end":22253.775,"text":"這917你要他檢列1000萬到底檢列在哪裡檢列在不該檢列的地方不能發生效果那如果是檢列在針對性的地方又好像是反效果是不是我們原造過去委員的例子透過預算審查可能又以凍結要求改善"},{"start":22254.335,"end":22281.338,"text":"那因為這個按日案件計酬的酬金呢 他不是一次性的我不曉得是不是一次性的發包業務如果不是一次性的 那麼至少呢 業務機關他在辦理相關業務的時候可以注意到委員在審查預算的時候 要求跟叮嚀因此呢 他的後續的改進有呈現出應有的作為這個時候呢 就可以以凍結的解凍的條件來促使業務機關在執行上做必要的改良"},{"start":22281.798,"end":22296.417,"text":"那這是我對於剛剛提案委員他的用心的本意那麼放在預算審查上可以採取的手段給的一個建議那也希望機關能夠回應如果說現在提案委員提案說要檢列一千嘛"},{"start":22298.048,"end":22322.077,"text":"凍結三簽那我不知道這一簽會簡列到哪個項目那凍結的三簽那到底是要哪些項目要改善後才能夠凍資因為提案內容上並沒有明確的指出所以我在這裡擔心提案委員的美意不能落實也擔心機關也不能夠理解我們審查所要求的方向萬一搞錯方向了剛好我們前功盡棄適得其反以上建議"},{"start":22325.494,"end":22344.533,"text":"請問歐委員的提案,各位委員用凍結?凍結3000元嗎?請問歐委員,市案的部分是否堅持不改變?"},{"start":22346.135,"end":22368.013,"text":"因為我等於是動的是大象那這個我想這個我還是堅持就是檢例一千萬 凍結三千萬然後就讓他們自己好 謝謝那我想說這個大家意見不一致那第74案的部分我們就還是一樣予以保留到院會去處理好那第75案請問一下法務部有意見"},{"start":22369.554,"end":22378.623,"text":"沒意見 好那我們就修改後主決議通過那76萬請問翁曉琳有無補充翁曉琳委員有無補充"},{"start":22381.076,"end":22399.55,"text":"就是同樣在談到那個小鎮署署長特殊費的情況我剛剛已經有提過那這個部分我還是堅持那請問其他委員沒有啦我是提醒你因為剛剛念到75萬我的提案雖然我已經同意了您可以再問一下提醒一下我同意啦我同意啦那這樣75萬的部分你還有補償嗎我同意同意同意但是您要問一下我再答"},{"start":22404.454,"end":22426.508,"text":"那那個76案的部分我不知道各位委員是否同意那個翁委員所提出來的這個簡列168000元保留好那這樣子大家意見不一致那這個76案就予以保留那第二幕矯正業務提案案號第69案至第76案第727375改為主決議"},{"start":22432.977,"end":22452.049,"text":"第69707476保留送協商第二幕矯正業務向下辦理矯正行政業務凍結200萬等提出書面報告經同意後 使得凍資繼續處理第12款第5項矯正署所屬之主決議提案案號第77案至第83案"},{"start":22461.984,"end":22473.817,"text":"第77案 請問法務部有沒有意見 同意 那我們就以主決定通過那78案有無意見 叫文字修正"},{"start":22475.134,"end":22495.623,"text":"有意見 同意好 那就依照修正後 主決議通過79案 有意見 沒意見好 依照主決議通過 80案 有意見 沒意見好 依主決議通過 81案 有意見 沒意見那依主決議通過 82案 有沒有意見 沒有意見好 依主決議通過 83案 有意見 沒有意見那依主決議通過"},{"start":22497.301,"end":22518.468,"text":"好 主決議 提案案號第77至第83案第77 79 照83 照案通過 第78案修正通過第12款第5項矯正署及所屬處理完畢繼續處理第6項行政執行署及所屬第三目執行案件處理 提案案號第84第85 55案"},{"start":22522.185,"end":22538.893,"text":"那第84案改凍結100萬元這個部分請問機關有意見沒有意見好沒有意見那各位應該也沒意見吧好那就依照那個改凍結100萬通過那85案請問並到第84案"},{"start":22548.639,"end":22568.591,"text":"第三幕執行案件執行案件處理提案案號第83至第85案本幕合併凍結100萬元並針對凍結提案的要求依審查會決議提出書面報告後 使得動之繼續處理第六項行政執行署及所屬的主決議提案案號第86第87案86案請問"},{"start":22575.816,"end":22600.727,"text":"法務部有無意見沒有意見好那我們就依照修正後主決議通過那87案法務部有無意見沒有意見好我們依據修正後的主決議通過好主決議第8687案修正通過第12款第6項行政經營署及所屬處理完畢繼續處理第7項最高檢察署真的嗎還是要等你一下"},{"start":22606.108,"end":22626,"text":"因為這都沒有爭議的我就快一點那第二幕檢查業務提案案號還是提醒一下因為其實因為就算機關還是建議啦就算執行機關同意改動節或者檢列也是要問一下其他委員不好意思我剛剛是跪了這裡說不好意思第二幕檢查業務提案案號第88至第91案"},{"start":22632.905,"end":22644.196,"text":"那請問一下第88案提案人黃國昌委員就本目的部分你要不要一併的如果有意見可以提出說明我先處理88案嘛88案出國計畫最高檢察署是編了131萬4千元嗎"},{"start":22653.325,"end":22681.442,"text":"那去年度 去年度其實就是2024年嘛2024年是編了41萬4千元嘛然後2025年編了131萬4千元嘛那理由是說要去法國要去瑞士檢查總長辦公室去考察那我是沒有辦法理解啊去法國 去瑞士檢查總長辦公室考察是要考察什麼"},{"start":22682.844,"end":22694.534,"text":"它的效益是什麼它針對目前我們檢查中長的職權針對於有關檢查中長在制度上面"},{"start":22695.905,"end":22720.226,"text":"跟國人所關心的問題到底有什麼因果關係我看不出來啊只說要去法國只說要去瑞士那去法國瑞士回來那你主要的目的是什麼我完全沒有看到這個必要性啊那一百三十一萬四千萬四千元我也沒有全部刪啊我減一百萬以上好那翁委員"},{"start":22726.063,"end":22741.831,"text":"是 我可以這個一起幫那個羅志強委員跟徐小青委員他們是作為提案人 九十一案現在我來講九十一案因為九十一案跟剛剛黃委員的案子都是談的就是出國計劃"},{"start":22743.447,"end":22763.386,"text":"的費用那麼我們這裡的看法是認為其實新冠疫情之後很多的會議都會改成線上網路會議那麼交流模式等等不見得一定非得要這個要有正式的人員去那個國家來進行開會各個機關都應該要重新檢視國外旅費的必要性"},{"start":22764.546,"end":22789.751,"text":"並且可以尋求更適當的替代性來開會所以基於就是尊潔國家的財政那在這裡提出凍結預算30%然後最高檢察署在六個月之內要向司法法治委員會提出他們出國必要性的專案報告之後經過同意才可以動之以上好 謝謝那請問各位委員還有沒有要補充的88到91案"},{"start":22794.669,"end":22822.419,"text":"因為我們國外旅費是不是都保留通案處理那第九十案的部分我說八十八案是國外旅費是不是保留做通案處理嘛是不是八十八案是國外旅費啊不過這邊還是請那個最高檢察署來說明一下吧他們八十還沒處理呢八十八跳到九十一了"},{"start":22823.567,"end":22851.313,"text":"所以88的話大家意見如果不一致的話那是法務部有要說明嗎88案的部分很感謝翁委員給我們一個說明的機會那我們尊重這個委員的這個的意見如果採通案處理我們覺得可以接受不過這個對於剛剛那個黃委員的說法我要說明一下"},{"start":22852.506,"end":22869.761,"text":"大概我們前年有去過這個德國那是當時江惠民江總長的時候任內編的啦那時候我們這個檢察官去的時候當然是疫情那個情況非常的辛勞那我們去直接看到德國的一些進步還有他的一些問題所以我們回來之後馬上"},{"start":22870.862,"end":22884.878,"text":"就我們所看到的問題我們結合了我們各地的檢察官有德語背景的也出了一本德國檢查實務就是依照中華民國的刑訊體系然後就目前我們在德國所看到一些問題"},{"start":22885.819,"end":22909.268,"text":"具有德語能力的一些檢察官還有是實地參訪的檢察官我們把他去資料匯整起來這本書馬上就要出版了而且這個不用花國家的錢我們是由民間來出版的就政府出版品有委託來出版的這本書馬上就要出版了也匯集了十幾位檢察官也請了我們法律系的教授來跟我們做指導"},{"start":22910.348,"end":22927.274,"text":"那這本書出版了之後呢如果在座的委員有興趣的話我們又可以這個請委員來跟我們做指導所以這個具體的成果我們不是出去外面玩另外我們因為正式去跟德國的這個相當高階層的這個檢察官建立了關係所以今年"},{"start":22928.374,"end":22944.064,"text":"就去年一月德國慕尼克檢察長也到台灣來訪問一共有四個人他們也派了檢察官來我們這個最高檢察署還有地檢署來見習前後加起來又將近四位之多啦所以這是有具體的收穫另外這個"},{"start":22946.021,"end":22963.474,"text":"去年我們到了日本去也見到了日本相當高相當高的這個層次也進行了交流他們也對我們的業務有更深入的了解因此跟委員報告那這個情況目前是這樣子那因為這個日本跟德國在這個這幾任的情況都已經去過了現在"},{"start":22964.727,"end":22992.924,"text":"就是法國跟瑞士那我們的母法我們的繼承法國其中有一個德國跟瑞士是非常密切的那我們而且在拉法亞的時候是瑞士檢察官對我們是非常的友好跟我們很多的支持也要回了很多的將近上億的美金那我們想要去繼續維持相關的相方的關係那這些人默默在幫助我們長大十幾年這關係我們也不要雖然斷掉了事實上在座檢察官"},{"start":22995.768,"end":23021.604,"text":"當時在跟法國檢察官溝通當時我在北檢的時候他們也去了瑞士去了好幾趟瑞士也傾全力支援我們我們回饋收回違法的錢也收了好幾億美金所以這個是進行實質的交流他實際上也在另外法國事實上跟我們關係也相當的友好我們希望也能夠邀請他們高階的這些檢察官來做附訪然後"},{"start":23024.926,"end":23038.35,"text":"這個以後再辦刑事案件相信一定會用得到的這也跟各位做個說明另外對於八九案我們要跟各位做個報告這裡面跟我們簡列兩百萬還沒到好謝謝好那第八十八案的部分請問一下黃委員是提出簡列一百萬那各位有不同意見"},{"start":23054.725,"end":23055.508,"text":"我們先討論88案,一樣一樣來"},{"start":23061.152,"end":23086.55,"text":"好 那就予以保留嘛好 那八十八案就予以保留那八十九案 黃委員還要再補充嗎八十九案部分八十九案主要是針對在思改國事會議以後偵查不公開的亂象是思改國事會議裡面重要的事情那隨著思改國事會議的結論然後也有強化的要求也有強化的要求"},{"start":23087.915,"end":23116.26,"text":"最大檢察署的檢察中長來本院備詢的時候會以我自身當作例子來請教除了我早上所講的我帶IMB的秘密證人跑去北檢結果作證的內容變成禁週刊洗滌的內容以外另外一個泰電案涉及到的弊案具名告發的人是我"},{"start":23117.452,"end":23145.634,"text":"沒有人知道結果竟然記者把它寫出來記者把它寫出來兩個案子總長都表示痛心疾首偵查不公開的亂象都要下去查查了半天以後到目前為止到目前為止全部都查無不法謝謝指教全部遷解台北地檢署相關的案子"},{"start":23146.929,"end":23168.894,"text":"法務部部長說從2018年以來有人被懲處有發現偵查不公開的專案小組要處理的小組真的有發現有違反偵查不公開結果我請你們把名單給我15個人全部都警察15個人全部都警察我完全沒有辦法理解"},{"start":23174.046,"end":23200.276,"text":"這不是司改國是會議的決議的內容嗎也要強化處理啊做了決議要強化處理處理到今天所有違反偵查不公開真的有處理的15個案子全部都警察全部都警察違反了那些內容有一些是連警察連碰都沒有碰的因為根本就不是發交給警方去辦嘛"},{"start":23201.415,"end":23227.847,"text":"這樣子的結果讓全體的國人非常的失望非常的失望到2024年的時候還繼續說要強化強化在什麼地方?完全看不到以上你剛有舉手是嗎?是要舉手但是要聽最高檢察先請法務部說明請檢察中"},{"start":23229.976,"end":23256.505,"text":"我非常感謝黃委員有這個機會讓我來回答因為之前我要回答這個問題因為在執行都是委員的時間我們不敢耽誤委員太多的時間所以很多事情都不能讓我們充分的論述今天如果可以的話我大概簡單的報告一下我個人不想迴避任何的問題所以委員在回答問題的時候我沒有拿一些法律來當擋箭牌"},{"start":23258.286,"end":23277.504,"text":"那我們現在拿這個法令來說好了我們依據司法院所頒布的偵查不公開作業辦法講得非常清楚這種涉及到泄密的案件依照在立法院那時候前幾次黃國昌黃委員質詢的內容涉及到泄密單位的是台北地檢署因為當時指的是北檢"},{"start":23278.769,"end":23299.684,"text":"依照這個偵查不公開作業辦法這是法規命令第11條講得很清楚這是應該由他的上級機關的首長來指定有關人員3至5人來組成調查小組台北地研署的上級單位就是台灣高能檢查署這辦法的規定非常清楚在法務部法務部108年6月27號這個函裡面當時這個"},{"start":23305.389,"end":23326.588,"text":"108年6月18號主席就是現在的台高檢署的檢察長也是當時的常務次長張斗輝張次長他做的會議結論裡面講得非常清楚請台灣高等檢察署設立偵查不公開督導小組督導所屬檢查機關包括台北立研署調查局廉政署"},{"start":23327.745,"end":23351.67,"text":"由事由台高檢來督導我們最高檢察署一設督導小組督導有關內亂、外患、妨害國交等屬二審檢查管轄案件之偵查不公開這是部裡的命還有這是法規命令裡面所規定的主責單位是台灣高等檢察署"},{"start":23352.742,"end":23381.432,"text":"因此在體制上我們必須發交到台灣高等法院檢察署我們在回答上也可以用這個來規避來當擋箭牌但是我們覺得我們應該要負起責任因為檢查一體是大家的事情因此我們在各種場合今天在座檢察長有在場他們都非常清楚我們在公開的場合主任檢察官會議專案會議一再跟檢察官報告這個偵查不公開是我們檢察官的天責"},{"start":23382.762,"end":23408.663,"text":"每個人在工作上我們碰到的問題都有而且這個洩密的管道的確非常的多律師也有 法官也有都掌握很多的資訊辯護人員也掌握很多的資訊司法警察也掌握很多資訊這司法警察也搬掛了很多的機關那到底是不是講完洩密出去的這個真的很難查證但是不管怎麼樣我們要盡一定的可能來保密在各種場合也都跟他們做宣導了今天當時開會很多在現場"},{"start":23411.616,"end":23431.384,"text":"另外一點在立法委員質詢的時候也承蒙我們在座的莊委員還有黃委員給我們很多關於偵查不公開的一些指導說我們回去之後我們也動員了全國的檢察官寫了一個關於偵查不公開的研究報告裡面提到了偵查保密令的一些問題"},{"start":23433.067,"end":23455.96,"text":"還有相關的一些督導如果真的要貫徹我當時在立法院裡面我也跟黃國昌委員報告說目前的體制就是這樣你目前的制度這樣如果說不從制度跟法令來配套說是來更改的話這個戲不斷在重演我跟各位保證10年後還是有同樣的問題"},{"start":23457.537,"end":23476.833,"text":"因此我建議說這個美國的偵查保密令是可以研究的那我們也把相關的法令相關的報告送到部裡面去了其中我們也把研究的草案送了一份給黃國昌黃委員我相信你應該也收到了總而言之這個偵查不公開是大家一起努力的不是說誰能夠負起責任"},{"start":23477.654,"end":23503.095,"text":"另外我要跟委員報告一下就是說我們這個最高檢查署預算非常的少我們的預算規模大概相當於台東地檢署因為我們人非常少經費非常拮据我們的經費大概比台東不是台中台東經費還要少一些如果把這個委員這個檢動的列下去的話我們在經費大概還不如澎湖地檢署"},{"start":23504.281,"end":23518.868,"text":"那這倒沒有關係因為有多少錢做多少事沒有錢也不是不能做事但是我們在辦理一些案件裡面編列講材教材講習這都需要一些費用比如說舉例子這個國安案件"},{"start":23520.015,"end":23545.754,"text":"這幾年來因為我們這樣的規劃跟各地各機關我們的努力還有各檢察官全國各地檢察官的努力我們編列教材辦理講習我們這幾年辦的案件大概是這一兩年辦的案件是這五六年來累積起來的案件都還要多換言之經過大家努力之後這一兩年辦的案件比以前累積起來還要再多那這表示說是大家一起努力是有相當的一些成效的"},{"start":23546.736,"end":23573.526,"text":"如果說把我們這個費用減列到將近49%半一半的錢減掉的話那在我們還是當然還要繼續努力啦但是我相信這個對實際業務的推展並沒有多大的意義啦所以我們很感謝委員長在歷次的這個質詢中的確給我們很多的指導跟提示那我們也的確按照這個委員這個對我們的業務上的一些指導跟提示我們也努力往這邊來做但這個"},{"start":23576.127,"end":23593.235,"text":"今天這個社會裡面這個物價不斷在騰飛啦像比如說這個出國訪問那些錢這個機票就漲了很多很多事情如果沒有錢的話的確是相當難做事情所以這點也請這個委員量查 謝謝剛剛是翁委員"},{"start":23601.124,"end":23625.391,"text":"謝謝方委員承讓我這個先做一個意見表達其實89案就成如剛剛個案的檢動案的看法這是針對督導樹攤暨重大刑事案件辦理那麼這是在我們單位預算書最高檢的18頁總本來項目是編了1170萬4千元看起來金額在我們的預算書是普普啦"},{"start":23625.911,"end":23644.599,"text":"那麼因為他針對的提案委員針對的不是人事費人事費剛剛有講過了是國安事項的加班費那麼是針對業務費業務費看起來呢是940萬8千元但是剛剛我們已經注了一個處理就是國外旅費的部分呢就是131萬我們就另按保留處理"},{"start":23645.399,"end":23648.263,"text":"那麼如果942萬減掉這個131萬的國外旅費的話那僅餘呢800餘萬這800餘萬當中我們看到通訊費是224萬按日寄件籌金140萬物品130萬的消心物品一般數會244萬5000元"},{"start":23663.402,"end":23679.996,"text":"那其中呢這個一般事務費當中呢在下一案吳宗憲吳昭偉你本身有提出了一個一般事務費裡面你明確的指出一個50萬的宣導經費那根據我們上午的原則這些也是保留通案去辦理那如果把這個也拿掉的話呢大概就是在800萬的"},{"start":23681.757,"end":23687.801,"text":"項目當中要減列200 剩下600 凍結20% 凍結160%那麼算一算 剩下600減160 剩下440萬 那麼可以來使用那當然我在這裡認為 如果我們對於預算的執行有意見"},{"start":23699.989,"end":23722.204,"text":"那麼用凍結的方式也不視為是一個方法因為業務機關有一個檢討改進的空間而且這個項目我看了一下它的通訊費 按日寄件籌金這些物品它大概不是屬於一次性採購的發包業務屬於逐日使用的那麼縱使凍結個10%或許假如說是800萬的10% 80萬或許他們在後續年度的後續"},{"start":23727.688,"end":23751.459,"text":"的預算執行的時候有機會更正或者有機會透過更正得到解凍還可以支用那麼如果減劣太多或者是凍結太多那等於機關他就這些日常業務耗材這些我看這些按日期間的酬金那就不用辦了那等於是說空有編制人事經費卻沒有業務費可以去執行這也不是我們目前"},{"start":23752.239,"end":23767.858,"text":"預算審議的目的所以我這裡具體建議是不是本案因為標的已經縮小到只有大概八百萬的範圍以內如果再扣掉五十萬那就只有七百五十萬的範圍以內那不是就這七百五十萬的部分那麼建議提案委員可以考慮"},{"start":23768.719,"end":23793.44,"text":"不予剪裂但是以凍結一層的方式那麼讓機關能夠繼續運用那這是誠懇的建議我們也支持提案委員所提到樹攤是我們的重要事項但是誠如機關代表所言那麼最高檢本身的規模不大他們處理的案件都是相當特定重大的案件如果空有既有的人力編制而沒有業務經費去推動那麼事實上也是巧婦難為無米之炊那以上建議好黃委員"},{"start":23797.388,"end":23817.797,"text":"我說明一下之所以會動在最高檢其實我基本上面的想法是檢查中長在檢查一體的體系下面是所有檢察官的大家長而偵查不公開沒有辦法落實司改國是會議的亂象那個應該有整個"},{"start":23824.256,"end":23847.879,"text":"檢察署的大家長就是檢察中長的最高檢察署來駕馭負責不過剛剛檢察中長在法規上面就全責的劃分您所為的分析我剛剛坐在這邊非常仔細的聆聽了我想了一下行檢察中長所講的也不是完全沒有道理"},{"start":23849.239,"end":23864.734,"text":"所以這個案子我沒有辦法同意鍾嘉斌委員所講的說不砍就算了但這個案子可以保留因為我到第二輪的時候到第二輪的時候黨團提案的時候我會慎重的思考"},{"start":23865.819,"end":23884.58,"text":"這件事情到底是最高檢察署的高度來負責還是由高等檢察署的高度來負責如果按照刑檢察中長的說法的話那恐怕我在第二輪的提案的時候會由高等檢察署的部分來處理相關的問題"},{"start":23886.883,"end":23898.458,"text":"那不管怎麼樣 這個案子先保留我等到第二輪的時候 最高檢察署負責還是高等檢察署負責我會找到一個最適切的方法好 謝謝 那就89案的部分那我們就 法案我們就"},{"start":23908.511,"end":23911.232,"text":"這個案子當然最後是保留不過這邊我要講幾句話因為其實從這個會期這個新檢察總長接受我們的質詢有好幾次其實我也都很仔細的聽檢察總長對於偵查不公開的這個"},{"start":23926.89,"end":23952.7,"text":"議題表達的意見可是每次聽來聽去總是讓我的感受就是講了半天就是這個警察警察總長這裡或是所有的檢察官都無能為力去處理偵查不公開的事情那事實上可是這個就是你們的責任啊你們剛剛講說要去跟瑞士交流跟德國交流法國交流為什麼不去問問看人家偵查不公開怎麼做的"},{"start":23953.598,"end":23979.878,"text":"真實還不公開的問題至少我覺得在德國絕對不可能像台灣這麼的嚴重那明明就是這個按照相關的法規來說就是檢查總長您這裡就當然是可以督導所有的這個檢查機關裡面要非常的對於什麼事情真實還不公開的準則你們應該要訂定出來的"},{"start":23981.161,"end":24006.977,"text":"但是我真的聽了好幾次檢察總長您的談話讓我都不知道說那是偵查不公開原則乾脆把它廢了反正也做不到如果是真的做不到的話是不是真的以後我們應該那你們應該要提案修法以後台灣就沒有偵查不公開的問題委員跟委員報告一下我們最近有研究一個偵查不公開那個研究報告如果委員有興趣"},{"start":24008.575,"end":24011.64,"text":"我們會給委員再跟我們指導一下好謝謝"},{"start":24014.295,"end":24041.415,"text":"好吧那這樣就是89案的部分也予以保留那90案的部分因為我當時提那個主要我是有詳細的說明因為你們這個裡面有部分是包括到國安議題還有強化國安案件以及重大刑案的檢舉管道然後但是呢這個境外敵對勢力滲透這個到底要怎麼定義這個而且很容易會變成是選舉時候政治操弄的議題"},{"start":24042.416,"end":24066.77,"text":"所以這個部分我覺得我還是需要你們提供比較詳細的資料讓我能夠確定一下不過我自己凍結的部分是很少只有15萬元那這個我想說這個部分就先保留好了然後到院會再去談那第91案剛剛翁小林委員已經有先提過了有說明了那請問機關這邊有沒有要補充"},{"start":24074.571,"end":24087.971,"text":"沒有補充那請問一下在座的各位委員第91案翁小玲委員提案那個羅志強徐曉欣委員提案凍結30%就這個部分大家"},{"start":24090.652,"end":24116.618,"text":"有意見這個都出國計劃的嘛這個就通案了那第九十一案就一樣保留好那第二幕檢查業務第七項最高檢查署第八十八到九十一案保留送協商第七項處理完畢繼續處理第八項檢署第二幕檢查業務天安號第九十二案至第九十八案"},{"start":24118.154,"end":24145.689,"text":"我們現在92到9892案 請問黃國昌委員有要補充說明嗎我們在高檢署下面設置了一個科技監控科技設備監控過去這幾年看起來使用率跟效能非常非常的低使用率跟效能非常非常低但是在這個向下我也沒有提案要刪任何錢"},{"start":24146.806,"end":24169.603,"text":"我要求的只有凍結只有凍結百分之五那請你們在三個月內提出專案報告經統一或使得凍結因為凍結的數目值只有百分之五嘛三個月內把專案報告提來到市府法治委員會報告完以後就可以解凍了以上說明好 那莊委員"},{"start":24172.401,"end":24189.591,"text":"這個案子喔,那個九十二案這個是不是請黃委員再考慮一下啦我再來建議啦,你把它改成主決議來提...是啊,我很客氣啊,跟百分之五那樣的我就是因為看你客氣...我一塊都沒有刪耶我就是看你客氣,我就知道你這案子就比較可以說嘛"},{"start":24190.612,"end":24202.301,"text":"所以你覺得你遭到百分之十比較有可能不要說了 我就看我的youtube就好了沒有啦今天我就看你只有5%沒有啦 我只是看你的名字所以只有5%而已5%你們可以嗎你們給他說名字"},{"start":24207.939,"end":24213.124,"text":"有關黃委員的一個關注這個問題根據我們客戶中心的一個開案件數110年4月監制到112年4月底"},{"start":24223.654,"end":24249.876,"text":"總共的確是偏低只有26件平均一年9件我們台高建署也在去年也發現這個問題所以我們也透過我們優化我們的監控平台APP以及依照院檢承辦人員的需求修正告檢的條件新增監控的功能精進設計以及簡化告檢通報的流程兼顧保障受監控人人權以及監控者準確性及有效性"},{"start":24250.316,"end":24274.281,"text":"此外我們也加強監控人員的相關的教育訓練讓我們全國各地的檢察事務官我們都有指定專責的人員來去密集訓練統計在最近的一年110到去年的113年12月31日為止我們的科技監控已經達到138件比較之前增加了有10倍"},{"start":24275.902,"end":24285.349,"text":"另外也跟大院報告目前我們科技設備監控114年的度的預算編列3653萬8千元如果凍結可能3千多萬元其中我們113年的科技監控的預算還沒有去統計最後的一個執行率"},{"start":24299.079,"end":24319.653,"text":"是93%它大部分都是系統的維護以及人員的一些的監控跟它的案件數的關聯性並不大那我跟它的大院報告那基本上我們抬高監數非常的重視我們要求各地的檢查數甚至我們法院那邊我們也邀請他們來參訪我們的科控中心"},{"start":24322.595,"end":24339.102,"text":"我們也信心我們今年一定會有更大幅度的提升會建議是不是大院可以來的是我們改成主局或者是減少我們的凍結的一個數目是不是給我們凍結的100萬我想這部分我們都會努力來去達成那個我們監控的一個目標 以上好 黃委員既然這麼有信心的話三個月以後來做專案報告大家同意就解凍啦"},{"start":24350.612,"end":24374.353,"text":"既然這麼有信心就來做一個專案報告嘛第二個部分我再說一次對台灣高檢署我已經很客氣了我一毛錢都沒有散我只動百分之五如果這樣還沒有辦法接受那沒有關係那就保留我到第二輪提案的時候針對台灣高檢署的預算會重新的再review一次"},{"start":24377.608,"end":24388.611,"text":"就是 法院不然這樣子啦 我的提議啦專案報告你就看他們的成效啦 我們不要毀書免德啦專案報告你如果說有需要 再來擺就好啊所以你那個專案報告給它蓋起來 不要再專案給不死大家沒用的你就想不想有需要的時候 交給你們一個 我們也一個擺也沒關係啦"},{"start":24402.689,"end":24424.624,"text":"就不要專案報告啦你說動百分之五不要專案報告那永遠不解動就對了也不是書面就好書面報告但是我要加金同意喔金同意我一定要喔你要改書面報告你如果這樣講我OK啦但是要金同意喔那個不是寫一個書面報告來就可以了因為我之前講過這跟專委員個人沒關係"},{"start":24428.295,"end":24448.893,"text":"這種書面報告我看太多了啦全部都在寫作文啦我希望的是什麼針對問題點對點的因為我其實也蠻想看到高檢所的檢察長來有很多問題因為平常我們排他也根本不會來嘛你排個專案報告大家有很多問題都可以問他嘛"},{"start":24449.929,"end":24476.384,"text":"他沒有平常我們一年喔 看他看一幾年就審預算的時候啊啊沒有平常他什麼時候會來我後面去替你擺好不好沒有啦沒有啦 後面啦不要啦 我是覺得高檢署這個齁他們的業務齁我們這個差別就只在一個是不是專案報告啦專案報告其實是有雙召會嘛齁那你如果認為有必要報告寫得不好"},{"start":24478.53,"end":24497.563,"text":"我們拿來擺就好了給你看如果沒有就不理我另外跟委員報告因為在我們科控總共的經費只有三千多萬元那現在目前動勢動到幾乎是不是動光是不是如果是委員要動的話那是不是動我們檢查的業務讓我們提一個書面的報告再來解凍"},{"start":24502.833,"end":24515.219,"text":"沒有啊 你看嘛我動的是12款第8項第二幕我們都以幕當作單位來處理嘛所以在這個幕裡面應該是6億9833萬嘛"},{"start":24518.632,"end":24532.408,"text":"那是包含我們除了還有打炸毒品是啦是啦所以只有5%啊5%三個月所以你現在是有打算三個月裡面執行率可以超過95%不可能嘛"},{"start":24536.077,"end":24550.871,"text":"我動只是手段欸檢察長請您要聽得懂我的善意我再說一次高等檢察署我一塊都沒有刪一塊都沒有刪我只動百分之五我要求的只有來做一個專案報告"},{"start":24551.852,"end":24572.784,"text":"把大家關心的事情回答清楚自然而然就解凍了那謝謝議長委員那這部分我們就同意那個那個議長委員的一個剛剛的一個意見我們這個就是提三個月內提書面報告那另外有關於這部分的科控我相信我們就會有更多的測驚作為以上三個月內提書面報告要經同意使得動之喔"},{"start":24576.889,"end":24595.223,"text":"是不是可以讓我們體驗書面報告我相信我們體驗書面報告一定會有更多的車警作為對不起 沒有辦法高等法院檢察署的書面報告我看過很多啦我從我第一次當立委的時候就看過非常的多了那我們要僵持在這件事情也沒有關係那就保留"},{"start":24598.019,"end":24616.331,"text":"所以剛剛不是已經講好 所以之後還是要保留嗎對 就保留因為剛剛聽起來 我以為高檢檢察長是同意不是啊 他只要一個書面報告啊現在差別在於沒有專案報告啦但是你們的書面還是要經委員會同意啦"},{"start":24617.318,"end":24620.059,"text":"如果這樣那第92案的部分我們就凍結5%那這個部分等高檢署提出"},{"start":24634.325,"end":24647.925,"text":"是提出書面報告並經同意之後於解凍通過好那第93案的部分我主要是提到因為高檢署需要再送人出去培訓"},{"start":24649.515,"end":24671.932,"text":"這個教育訓練的部分他是要進行測謊訓練但是我看了一下目前有幾個問題第一個就是測謊他其實在法院他並沒有全面承認他有一個證據能力所以測謊並不是我國刑事訴訟法所法定的調查證據的方法那高檢署前三年已經安排兩個人去受訓了"},{"start":24672.873,"end":24700.421,"text":"那再來我們目前國內也有調查局連政署或是警政署的刑事局也都有測謊的人員那到底有這個必要嗎所以這個部分我希望高檢署能夠在兩個月內能夠向我們提出書面報告那書面報告這樣子我們才才可以解凍來就這個部分請問一下"},{"start":24702.764,"end":24729.965,"text":"機關這邊有沒有意見跟委員報告從108年開始我們台高檢署那個成立北中南山區的測訪中心總共有選任四位那個到國外美國受訓的但是測訪是一個高壓的業務這個四人其中有兩人因為那個業務非常的繁重那個另有生涯規劃已經離職目前只有"},{"start":24730.465,"end":24754.476,"text":"兩位那測謊在目前刑事訴訟法雖然不能當作法院的唯一的一個證據但是還是個補強證據但是最主要在我們檢方的一個測謊我想那個主席你也非常了解他可以當作我們有重大的刑案他整個釐清我們調查的方向或者是其他的一些重要的一個案件作為我們檢察官的一個偵辦方向的一個參考"},{"start":24755.316,"end":24781.678,"text":"那我們在今年編的這些費用其實還是送我們美國來做相關的一個訓練我們希望不要斷了我們這個的整個的檢查的一些的測謊的一個人力因為會影響我們這個基層那個同仁對於偵辦重大或矚目案件的整個的一個測謊人力以便我們能夠來去釐清事實的一個真相那以上跟趙偉來報告"},{"start":24783.781,"end":24793.69,"text":"甲長請問一下你們之前送出去接受測謊訓練的人那當時有沒有跟他們簽約或有沒有要求他們回來必須要服務滿幾年"},{"start":24795.365,"end":24818.116,"text":"因為他都是我們的同仁 那我們好像是沒有要求是並沒有要求 但是他們都服務了一段時間因為他在測訪要半年的一個訓練那回來的話案件量非常的多 那個是壓力很大所以這四位其中已經有兩位已經離職了所以我們這次再選派 這主要是要來去補充這相關的人力這部分是不是"},{"start":24819.908,"end":24837.128,"text":"規範有所不足因為我印象中有一些單位他送同仁出國去進修的話那都會要求回來要服務打兩倍或三倍的時間至少那這一個部分"},{"start":24838.129,"end":24859.62,"text":"因為如果這樣的話我們送同仁出國去做測謊訓練他們回來他就直接辭職去民間機關上班就可以了因為現在有一些律師事務所跟會計師事務所他們也有提供民間的測謊服務所以這樣變成說好像我們用公費在替民間的公司培養"},{"start":24861.712,"end":24883.227,"text":"這個測謊人才所以我想請問一下警察長這部分有沒有相關規定目前是沒有相關的規定不過跟那個主席報告那個測謊要選送他們出去其實這個是我們都必須要去說服要有熱心的一個同仁那如果有規定恐怕更沒有人有意願來去前往新的國家"},{"start":24884.668,"end":24913.072,"text":"我覺得如果說送他出去因為那個測謊的證照我有看過那是非常難得的嘛那如果說我們對這樣的要求然後然後就認為沒有人要去接受那就算了那這個費用就不要啦不要羅列因為目前吼調查局連證書以及刑事警察局都有測謊的人員那如果這樣的話我就覺得沒這個必要性啊否則你授訊回來他去因為你現在好多律師事務所都有提供欸提供這個服務欸"},{"start":24915.35,"end":24935.751,"text":"報告主席 是不是容我們以書面來報告改成主決議這部分我們會更詳細的去說明更有趣的我們關注的相關的議題我們說明的更清楚一點因為我覺得這個部分可能不是就這麼簡單"},{"start":24938.26,"end":24967.766,"text":"那另外我跟那個我認為說送出國去取得證照然後然後高檢署並沒有要求他回來要服務多久其實這有一點在浪費國內的預算那報告主席其實其中的那兩位他們我們選送出去都非常的優秀那兩位檢察司官這跟優秀與否無關我也相信能夠被檢察長挑到一定非常優秀我的意思是說因為這是國家的預算那我希望培養的人"},{"start":24968.267,"end":24968.448,"text":"他回來"},{"start":24970.489,"end":24998.846,"text":"因為之前也是啊你公費送出去的人都有規定回來要服務兩倍的時間嘛你送出去兩年回來就是至少服務四年以上啊你才能夠離開啊報告主席他並沒有離開我們檢查體系他們還在我們檢查體系裡面但是至少這你們要有相關的規定吧他並沒有 他還是在我們另外也跟大家主席報告其中這兩位士官又非常的優秀那後來有經過考上我們的檢察官"},{"start":25001.888,"end":25027.302,"text":"這個話不是這樣講啊因為我們編列預算送他出國去進修取得這個證照結果回來之後我們就讓他去做別的事情了那他是要考試考上的並不是那個我們那個有選他那個人我知道啊但是如果照你這樣講那我幹嘛送他們出去周委又是出國了通案通案"},{"start":25028.925,"end":25034.329,"text":"通案,你過去講過去取答的,保留了,我幫你提倡一下"},{"start":25045.377,"end":25059.528,"text":"中委員因為這是教育訓練費用這不是出國什麼開會所以這教育訓練費用因為我今天比較執著的點是說我今天送人花那麼多錢送了一個同仁出去學習取得測謊的證照"},{"start":25061.289,"end":25087.445,"text":"那個那個證照也是很難得的證照結果回來他可能就職務調動或他不想幹了就走了那可能去民間的測謊公司所以我們公家機關在送人出國去進修的時候其實我們很多時候都要求他回來他必須服務兩倍或三倍的時間你才能夠離開那我的意思只是這樣因為如果說我們今天沒有一個最基本的要求"},{"start":25088.485,"end":25115.95,"text":"或者是說人力的部分因為我剛有提到了調查局、廉政署跟行政警察局都有測謊的人力那是不是我們高檢署還要再安排這麼多因為前面幾年已經培養了四位測謊的人但是有兩位已經不在這個位置上那我的意思只是這樣那因為你送人送去美國接受測謊的訓練然後取得證照其實這也要花蠻多錢的"},{"start":25118.201,"end":25140.179,"text":"另外跟那個主席報告那依照剛剛我們人事處長的一個提醒那依照法律的規定帶子帶性出國的話必須要回國要扶兩倍的時間的一個的一個才有辦法來去離開否則是那個這部分是未完相關的規定對我印象中有這個規定啊對那我們是目前實際上那實際上他們都超過這樣的一個時間啦這樣有給你解釋嗎看你聽下去不會這樣"},{"start":25149.578,"end":25171.548,"text":"我本來以為趙偉你要談的是證據能力的問題啦不是啦 後來如果不是的話因為你講的是說我們好像在幫民間培養嘛那現在高金屬的講法是說不會那回來還是要有兩倍的時間如果這講是真的的話那趙偉倒是不用我這樣的一個疑慮啦倒是可以支持啦"},{"start":25175.316,"end":25201.155,"text":"好啦,那這樣齁,我看齁這樣的話,還是說我這個就是保留好了啦,就去院會協商啦我看就這樣好不好好,那謝謝主席我想說大家講的各有各的道理好吧,那就這樣,我不堅持這個好,那第九十,那我們現在齁審查第九十四案那請問陳俊宇委員有無要補充"},{"start":25203.274,"end":25230.584,"text":"我知道剛剛中召委說改組決議也要問一下在場的委員好那如果沒有意見的話那請問訪問部就第94案有意見嗎 遵照辦理好謝謝那就修正後組決議通過那第95案請問有沒有他們兩位都沒在嘛好那第95案部分有沒有意見要補充"},{"start":25237.584,"end":25255.198,"text":"這個都涉及到出國旅費 那就保留好 謝謝 那第95案就保留那96案 這我提的好 這國安 那就一樣予以保留好了好 那97案一樣 這檢查業務的部分 97案"},{"start":25266.817,"end":25267.94,"text":"好 九七案的部分"},{"start":25272.537,"end":25298.553,"text":"我想請問一下就是有關這個司法精神病院這些等等還有一些外聘保全的這些問題還有辦理過兩次共八場的教育訓練那執行率只有20.78那所以這個維安人員的聘用率不如預期那我想這個部分是不是能麻煩法務部這邊說明一下第九期案我有給你們提案表"},{"start":25304.87,"end":25324.367,"text":"我們目前司法精神的一個病房北部以及東部已經在去年年底已經完成了我們今年我們的執行率4比2提升當然還有一個是中部這部分也目前進行相關的一個招標那有關於相關的人力我們法務部"},{"start":25324.867,"end":25339.191,"text":"也指示我們台高建樹也密切的來去做相關的一個試檢的規劃那這部分我們台高建樹一定會全力以赴我們是不是盡情是不是這個案件能夠給我們凍結500萬元這部分我們會持續的努力什麼意思我剛剛沒有聽到8來去凍結那個500萬元"},{"start":25351.446,"end":25370.279,"text":"我看97跟98那個我又要講就是說司法精神病院司法精神病院這個東西是全民一直在關注的因為這幾年有一些精神病患在社會上面有傷害或殺人的行為但是後來司法都沒有辦法耐他和只能放他回家"},{"start":25370.859,"end":25398.516,"text":"那造成社會的不安但是我們目前司法精神病院又還沒有設置完成所以導致這些人你也關不了他你也無法限制他自由你也沒有辦法把他放在醫院所以他還是在外面跑那他如果有任何刑事犯罪在目前我國司法制度下面又沒有辦法定他的罪那又沒有辦法定他的罪進去關又沒有辦法把他放在那個管束他的自由那有時候造成很多人民眾會有恐慌"},{"start":25399.677,"end":25411.984,"text":"所以這個我們是要求這一定要趕快做好好那你們是希望說跟98改動解50097跟98就合併啦 然後凍結500然後提書面啦 但是也請你們趕快要去落實啦好不好98那邊也是500啦 看招牌你要給他幾次沒了"},{"start":25423.939,"end":25452.335,"text":"那也是人力的弱勢我倒覺得還好啦像這個部分涉及到也倒不是說什麼該如何去監督或者有什麼弊端的部分跟剛剛前面所提的不太一樣啦但只是說確實喔這個部分我看那個執行率確實要加把勁好不好另外報告主席因為這部分不是牽涉到我們台高檢測是保護部還牽涉到那個衛福部那這部分我們檢查機關說實在是更心急各位 跨機關了"},{"start":25454.649,"end":25470.873,"text":"這個建制派要看幾關所以我們覺得動議的也沒意思500人我幫你先問一下翁委員翁委員第98案的部分喔你是改動捷500萬因為我這個金額跟動捷500萬差距還蠻大的"},{"start":25482.879,"end":25502.055,"text":"其實我們真的非常的努力我們一直在協商但是有時候基礎精神病院並不是那麼簡單的一個成立目前北部以及跟東部已經成立了他們有跟我談過了就了解他們的問題確實也不是他們一個單位可以這樣處理那翁委員你跟他們談過了是不是對 談過了我記得談過了有 有談過了"},{"start":25512.025,"end":25531.616,"text":"好那這樣齁那沒關係那我這邊就因為我剛有說嘛就是法務部都沒有來找過所以我沒有機會跟法務部溝通啦但是翁委員有跟法務部溝通過那有啦他們都有來找我談而且很多人其實對好OK謝謝齁那那個第九十"},{"start":25534.999,"end":25557.334,"text":"第二幕檢查業務提案案號第九十二案至第九十八案第九十四案改為主決議那九三九五九六保留第二幕檢查業務向下辦理行事案件偵查及執行等業務凍結三四九一萬七千元那強化社會安全網第二期計劃凍結五百萬元"},{"start":25563.198,"end":25590.9,"text":"那繼續處理第八項台高檢之主決議提案案號第99案那第99案請問陳俊委員有沒有要補充好那請問那個法務部對第99案有意見沒有意見那我們就依照主決議通過沒有我已經退一退我就是尊重那個翁委員的想法"},{"start":25592.318,"end":25607.946,"text":"那主決議第99案 召喚通過第12款第8項 抬高檢處理完畢繼續處理第14項台灣台北地方檢察署第一幕一般行政提案案號第100案好那第100案"},{"start":25615.831,"end":25642.679,"text":"好 第一百案我想說剛剛都有都有人提過相類似的啦就是有關北檢的那個特別費的部分那我們這個部分我們是希望凍結百分之三十來就是十六萬八千元好 那請保護署這邊表示意見保留啦 這跟前面一樣沒關係 保護署先表示一下意見啦你保證會叫他講 他要怎麼講好"},{"start":25648.309,"end":25671.294,"text":"跟委員報告就是這個部分上次委員來視察我們台北地檢署後那我們有針對委員所關切的問題我們都有提出這個檢討改進那相關的這個改進的措施我們現在目前都已經逐步在落實當中那當然我們也希望說委員可以同意我們這個改為主決議然後提這個報告"},{"start":25679.828,"end":25702.335,"text":"這個有關這個政大不公開這個部分我想說還是要麻煩你們多努力啦包括那個總長還有部長其實這一塊要麻煩多努力就是有關政大不公開因為其實你們去看一下那個檢察官論壇北檢以外的其他地檢組其實酸北檢酸得很厲害"},{"start":25704.33,"end":25725.246,"text":"因為我們以前同事都跟我講我現在當然沒有全線進去看檢察官論壇但是我們很多以前同事他們進去看其他地檢是酸北檢酸的還蠻難聽的所以這不是只有民間或不懂法律或不懂檢查業務的人有這個感覺而是連檢察官自己都覺得北檢你到底在幹嘛"},{"start":25725.726,"end":25753.093,"text":"所以這部分再麻煩北檢這邊再多努力那這個我想說這樣好了啦這個這部分我看還是保留好了就保留那之後再到院會去協商好那第一幕一般行政第一百案保留送協商那繼續處理第31項台灣宜蘭地方檢察署第三幕一般建築及設備提案案號第101案"},{"start":25756.476,"end":25777.956,"text":"公務車的部分我們前面也都保留了好那就101的部分我看這部分就保留好了因為這個好像是電動車的那個黃委員你當初這一塊你是不是也有意見"},{"start":25779.002,"end":25794.087,"text":"我好像有聽你講過我是贊成就是剛剛莊委員所講的保留啦因為老實講就是說我必須要講說 趙偉 鍾憲雄真的很客氣啦"},{"start":25796.08,"end":25821.934,"text":"沒有必要就一百九十四萬全部都把它刪掉了才三個三十萬你才三個六十萬嘛那沒關係啦因為三個六十萬是要改車種還是什麼我也看不懂如果真的沒有必要的話我們到第二輪的時候就一百九十四萬全部都把它給刪掉了所以我贊成保留啦了解 好"},{"start":25824.301,"end":25832.26,"text":"因為那時候是這樣啦就是我當時看到說宜蘭地檢好像說他汰換的車輛好像是堅持要換電動車嘛"},{"start":25835.195,"end":25858.676,"text":"所以因為電動車的 是這樣嘛 就是價格也不低啦也蠻高的 所以然後有沒有這個必要性 那另外我們現在既然我們的發電是這種發電模式 電動車也沒有環保到哪裡去所以我當時才會覺得說這部分要減列60萬那沒關係 那現在101我看第101案我們就預保留好 道遠會再協商"},{"start":25861.575,"end":25885.942,"text":"好 第三幕保留好了 不然我們立法院都電動車結果我們在刮別人都沒有啦 不一樣的電動車啦 不一樣隨便啦 蠻貴的你看一下他那個你就知道好 第三幕 一般建築及設備第101案保留送協商繼續處理第37項調查局第102案派員出國計畫"},{"start":25893.698,"end":25900.347,"text":"黃委員有沒有要補充調查局的部分因為我處理兩個部分102案是出國 派員出國105案是媒體宣傳"},{"start":25907.57,"end":25934.241,"text":"這兩個案子在我們之前討論的通案當中基本上都是保留到院會的時候統一去做處理只不過102案跟105案伴隨著這兩個案子我有兩件事情我要公開的提醒我們電話局的局長要特別注意這件事情"},{"start":25935.458,"end":25964.242,"text":"第一件事情是大概從蔡清祥當吊牙局局長卸任容身法務部部長以後吊牙局出現一個非常奇怪非常奇怪的一種習俗什麼習俗啊就是吊牙局局長卸任以前都要辦畢業旅行什麼叫畢業旅行啊花大把納稅人的錢跑到國外去"},{"start":25966.089,"end":25990.861,"text":"這件事情我從我第一次當立委的時候我就在追蹤了因為我第一次當立委的時候啊是蔡清祥從第二級局長下來升法務部部長到這一次第二次我一樣在追蹤相關的單據我全部都調出來我看了那個錢啊我真的是看到瞠目結舌"},{"start":25994.785,"end":26016.508,"text":"現在換你當局長我希望你回去局裡面探聽一下我會講的這麼特定具體就是你們局裡面有人看不下去到底是誰在搞這種事情的你回去局裡面探聽一下就知道了第二件事情"},{"start":26018.939,"end":26045.478,"text":"我前幾天是基於善意請你來把情資都提供給你了調查局的同仁在偵辦犯罪特別是我最痛恨的組織犯罪你不要在自己調查局的同仁被黑幫的人滲透都渾然不知一批一批帶去的跟組織犯罪的成員吃飯"},{"start":26048.24,"end":26075.95,"text":"那個傳出來對調查局的整個士氣傷害非常的大但我有探聽過你的名聲局裡面很多人對你的正直是肯定的所以我希望這件事情我沒有公開質詢就讓你自己回去把事情給處理好102跟105案這兩個案子因為都牽涉到通案的所以大概就保留吧"},{"start":26077.568,"end":26088.234,"text":"好那這樣子那我們是不是102案就保留報主席請說保留我們這邊都沒有意見但有關那個102案是不是請容我有這個機會跟委員報告一下"},{"start":26093.337,"end":26116.56,"text":"那因為我只講重點102案其實我們原來編的是比去年還少那之所以今年會有增加是因為今年有一場這個台美國際這個企圖合作論壇那去年是在我們台灣舉行的那今年要移到美國的華府去舉辦那所以會有增加這一個出國的預算所以會增加"},{"start":26117.521,"end":26125.325,"text":"那另外在這個出國的項目裡面有一個比較重要的要跟委員報告就是有關於我們國家在這個洗錢防治組織裡面的這個重要性目前我們是艾格蒙聯盟的會員然後也是APG的會員那並且我們除了是會員以外我們還是其他要申請入會的國家的輔導會員"},{"start":26141.992,"end":26154.425,"text":"那目前我們是在福島、越南還有帛琉進到這個艾格蒙聯盟的組織裡面所以艾格蒙聯盟的相關的這些組織每年都有聯會、工作會議還有一些論壇那我們成為一個重要的會員國我們都有必要有義務要去出席"},{"start":26161.793,"end":26179.636,"text":"那另外一個比較更重要的狀況就是目前中國他還不是艾格蒙聯盟的會員他是APG的會員可是他還不是艾格蒙聯盟的會員那可是在這個艾格蒙聯盟的會議裡面中國一直也想要加進來那他加進來的條件他要求秘書處就是要改我們國家的會籍"},{"start":26180.577,"end":26196.963,"text":"他才要加進來那目前秘書處是對我們中華民國對我們調查局FIU是非常非常的支持所以一直中國沒有機會進來所以這個出國的會議對我們來說是非常非常的重要如果我們沒有固守"},{"start":26197.583,"end":26211.972,"text":"到這個會員的這個資格的話我們可能在這個國際上我們可能又會失去一部分的這個一個發言的地位我想這個比較重要的會議我提出來跟委員報告請求委員支持謝謝"},{"start":26215.877,"end":26227.343,"text":"我們就一樣我們剛剛所說的就是派人出國計劃第102案保留送協商繼續處理第一幕一般行政提案案號第103案第104案中委員"},{"start":26231.894,"end":26240.045,"text":"我要給你補充一下那個車子的部分我知道立法院也用很多電動車但是因為宜蘭他們要求買那個特斯拉然後他的車價是185萬電動窗9萬那我們認為說其實當時我是覺得這個價格過高他們同時還要再買一部警備車是88萬"},{"start":26248.969,"end":26267.206,"text":"你知道首長用車total加起來是194萬然後另外一部警備車還少他100多萬 只要88萬那首長的用車有沒有必要用到那樣等級或是其他地檢署看了會不會不爽 這我們都要考量所以我當時才會有這個"},{"start":26269.857,"end":26295.441,"text":"我們還是給他保留啦只是說剛剛莊委員有提到說我們立法院也用電動車那為什麼我們對宜蘭歷檢用電動車有意見但那個等級不一樣所以當時我就認為等級不一樣我才有這個意見您是就等級不是對車廠啦不是對特斯拉有意見沒有沒有因為他要194萬我們也知道因為特斯拉這個車廠沒有啦那我確定一下因為"},{"start":26296.209,"end":26312.119,"text":"因為一般我們的那個共同供應契約它其實是設規格啦那車廠的話是因為來投標的時候決定的不是由採購機關決定的那我不曉得這個案是不是共同供應契約因為對不起剛我不在如果問錯了就我的資料並"},{"start":26313.989,"end":26341.962,"text":"對沒有討論因為這個部分我想說就保留那只是說剛剛沖委員有跟我問說我們立法院也是用電動車為什麼我們可以那因為兩個差距太遠他要194萬那我想說這可能好沒關係我們還是一樣就用保留的方式處理好那103104103案有沒有委員要補充"},{"start":26343.001,"end":26366.768,"text":"其實103案也是涉及到國外差旅費的部分啦就調查局的這個國外差旅費那麼其實理由已經跟我們在之前去審查其他保護部下面的機關的國外差旅費的意思是一樣的那麼所以這個部分的話就也建議就通案處理就予以保留好那就對然後那104案的話是"},{"start":26368.475,"end":26395.307,"text":"這個調查局雖然不是我提案但是因為我連署我就幫羅志強跟許曉欣講這個案子現在進入到104了嗎因為我看這邊有登記說已經改組決議了是改組決議嗎那我這裡沒有登記到我這裡的資料這已經有改了已經改了是不是好沒關係改了就改了好那就這樣第103案的部分我們就予以保留各位有沒有不同意見"},{"start":26396.749,"end":26419.615,"text":"好那沒有的話103案保留那104案就是修正後主決議通過有沒有意見沒有好第一幕一般行政第三七項調查局第104案改為主決議第103案保留送協商接著處理第二幕司法調查業務提案案號第105案至第107案好105案"},{"start":26425.759,"end":26450.925,"text":"請問一下黃委員有沒有要補充這我剛剛就說啦105案牽涉到有關媒體宣傳的這也是到第二輪的時候統一處理所以就先保留那105案予以保留各位有意見沒有的話105案我們就予以保留那106案106案也是一樣因為這也涉及到媒體宣傳費也是予以保留那107案"},{"start":26455.862,"end":26477.786,"text":"國外旅費一樣予以保留嘛對不對就一樣送用費那第二幕司法調查業務第105至107案保留送協商接著處理第三幕鑑識科學及通訊監察業務提案號第108案第109案108案翁曉琳委員有沒有要補充"},{"start":26481.34,"end":26494.275,"text":"108案的主要是針對調查局在114年有提出一個鑑識科學及通訊監察業務的工作計畫那麼裡面有談到就是也是跟打擊這個計畫是屬於這個打擊詐欺經費的範圍"},{"start":26501.317,"end":26527.795,"text":"因為整個費用已變得蠻高的而且相對於內政部警政署在預算書裡面明確列示的計劃名稱比較清楚但是調查局的相關的預算卻沒有呈現計劃名稱經費總額實行情節等等所以沒有辦法充分去檢視打擊詐欺經費的全貌再說就是調查局也沒有於跨年期計劃裡面的概況"},{"start":26531.553,"end":26548.278,"text":"所需要的這個經費需求就這樣的計劃編列基本上也不利本院預算審議及外部監督所以我本席在這邊提出凍結預算一千萬等到調查局兩個月內向司法法治委員會提出專案報告之後才可以凍結好那黃委員"},{"start":26555.795,"end":26584.191,"text":"這個案子我在審通訊保障監察法的時候事實上我就已經提過網路流量紀錄為了打炸的需求我們在通保法裡面去年上個會期的時候通過了在這個法案處理的過程當中我就特別提出來建置費用非常高建置費用非常的高"},{"start":26585.29,"end":26608.9,"text":"那除了有去一開始建置的費用以外還有付給電信業者的費用那我現在比較擔心啊是網路流量紀錄的這個東西啊他們是不是坐地起價坐地起價會造成支出的成本非常非常的高啊但是因為我們在修法的時候"},{"start":26610.014,"end":26636.892,"text":"我們同意了這件事情那現在要把關的是修法通過了以後具體實踐的問題當初在修法的過程當中我已經把我的疑慮充分表達了那那個時候修法過程當中大家的共識是說也不會馬上買要等到今年的預算編預算了以後才會下去建置才會去付錢"},{"start":26638.083,"end":26657.587,"text":"那因此這件事情我們就要落實那個時候在修法的時候所講的內容所以在這個象下我沒有刪任何的錢我沒有刪任何錢是用凍結的方式要求你們提出專案報告請同意以後時的凍結以上說明好 那中召委"},{"start":26660.475,"end":26674.36,"text":"好 這個陳儒提案委員 是不是我們現在108、109一併討論因為這兩個案子呢 一個是翁委員動1000一個是黃委員動兩成 20%項目呢 都是同一個項目所以主席我們就是同時談這兩個案子"},{"start":26675.58,"end":26699.569,"text":"沒錯啦好那因為的確在通訪法的時候呢都有委員在關心因為一方面我們希望能夠打造能夠留下的網路流量的記錄但是呢就三大電信業者的表示那時候我們深深的去討論了到底要在哪裡去設置這樣的設備那其實提案委員黃委員那時候在審查法那時候也提出他的一套看法譬如說在其他國家他們初步"},{"start":26700.129,"end":26723.352,"text":"那掌握的一份內部評估報告可能的金額大概是多少或者諸如此類的的確在那個時候呢這個題目的討論啊我是覺得有待進一步闡明因為到底目前這樣的一個大家肉人魂是必要的我想這個提案委員肯認所以是用凍結的方式來表達那另外呢我這邊覺得剩下兩點要處理的"},{"start":26725.1,"end":26754.706,"text":"就是到底有沒有給予國內三大通信業者完全沒有一個平衡的要求也就是說基於政府打詐那我們需要建設的這個設備那業者他有沒有在法定上的義務要配合配合到什麼程度這些所需要的費用他在分攤上是否是該掛由政府來負擔當時在審議的時候那時候調查局的意思是說我們要來承擔因為那不是"},{"start":26755.752,"end":26778.326,"text":"業者他在執行他特許的通信業務上他所必要的那如果是因為我們立法而形成的一個負擔並不是業者本來就應該有的義務那的確那這樣子這些設備所添購的費用可能政府就要編列預算但是編列的預算是否超出實際必要這個有必要進一步闡明"},{"start":26778.874,"end":26805.644,"text":"那另外呢縱使在這個地方未明之前因為預算審議有它的時間急迫性所以呢我們用凍結的方式假設是採取凍結那凍結的數額會不會影響到在我們打造工作的推動因為呢之前有類似的凍結案結果呢那個凍結案只要一凍下去整年度的預算在招標上就沒辦法適用了因為那是我舉個例子呢那個例子是之前在審議某一些"},{"start":26807.506,"end":26816.531,"text":"一個人事支出的部分那我就不便講是哪個單位那他們整年度因為那個發包要做監控那如果你給他凍結了"},{"start":26817.95,"end":26841.803,"text":"年初一月份因為金額無法發包所以整年度就停擺那如果是那種屬性的我們凍結不管5% 50% 一一都是一樣就這個事情就不用做了所以我是覺得待會列席機關代表要說明的時候要慘明這筆預算我們審議的時候我們要求的是要知道沒有去浪費納稅人的稅金"},{"start":26844.064,"end":26864.501,"text":"能夠保證達到效果但是我們所採取的手段能不能獲得會不會適得其反因為我看這邊凍結兩層啊那麼如果一般我們所知道政府機關的那個採購案呢你凍了兩層那可能就買不到了好 如果是一次性的採購尤其是如此那這點請業務單位說明好 那麻煩保護部說明"},{"start":26870.531,"end":26897.049,"text":"主席委員大家好那個其實我們調查局的這個計劃其實主計劃是含括在警政署的這個網路科技運用精進計劃裡面有一百多億那所有的硬體的建置都其實都是在警政署那邊那我們本委員會審查的我們調查局的部分其實是這個網路流量落地了以後我們去給他調來了後端的分析我們是做後端的分析"},{"start":26897.87,"end":26923.83,"text":"的這個部分而已所以這個部分我們明年是編了5億400萬那確實如果說動了20%的話其實大概我們應該是沒有辦法做一個完整的發標招標對發報出去因為我們必須在這個過程裡面必須要配合警政署他們的相關的這些規格大家都要一致沒辦法說他做他的我們做我們的"},{"start":26924.991,"end":26939.923,"text":"我們三檢的項目可能我們就沒有辦法執行整個後端的這個流量的分析所以是不是可以容我有一個建議是不是可以併那個翁委員那一案就是動一千萬然後讓我們"},{"start":26944.599,"end":26955.063,"text":"動因為這個這個有無益多啦動一千萬我們我們還可以勉強去去執行啦那一千萬我們來跟委員報告再來解凍這個可以如果一口氣動20%的話我們大概連發報我們都不敢發報啊這完全沒辦法做"},{"start":26962.051,"end":26974.168,"text":"我是覺得機關代表要說明清楚你們這個發包是什麼才行因為聽起來好像是有將近上百億的設備投資預算是編列在警政署那我們使用者要付費"},{"start":26976.811,"end":27004.79,"text":"那麼我們付的錢不是付給警政署而是呢在做後端的資料分析的時候需要有相關的軟體跟硬體是這個意思嗎那這個等於是說有人去發明了叫破解密碼的一套機器那你為了要破解密碼你必須呢再裝一個判讀器沒有這個判讀器他買的那一百多億的破解密碼的設備對你來講你就不能使用了是這樣那這一個對你們終端使用業者需要的這個採購案"},{"start":27006.531,"end":27018.166,"text":"你們是採取什麼樣的方式去招標這套系統簡單的講 用最簡單的白話講就是能夠知道這個駭客的足跡我們可以去溯源 去溯這個駭客的足跡有辦法採購嗎 有辦法招標嗎因為"},{"start":27029.676,"end":27043.167,"text":"巴奧委員 主席 各位委員我是通信政策處廖崇賢那請容我多花一點點時間跟各位委員報告一下這個網路科技運用精進計畫的一個過程"},{"start":27045.129,"end":27064.332,"text":"那大概在行政院的召開的會議總共歷時了三年的時間那我們調查局最大的貢獻就是在112年的時候我們提出了網路流量概念驗證系統這樣一個採購案那麼這樣一個採購案我們提出了一個計算的基準"},{"start":27065.333,"end":27071.239,"text":"在行政院開會的過程中有了一個決定就是這個計畫的經費是107億7,880萬元那這個部分"},{"start":27083.211,"end":27093.639,"text":"其實事實上也證明了一個事情就是說當我們提出這樣的一個經費的一個評估之後呢那後來因為是警政署主責來寫這個計畫那這個計畫在撰寫的過程請廠商三大業者 電信業者來提這個相關的經費的時候其實這個經費他們所提報的經費達到了176億"},{"start":27107.429,"end":27120.917,"text":"也就是說事實上如果我們沒有一個概念驗證系統的一個評估基準的話那麼業者所提出來的經費將會更高那所以我們才會最後我們就是檢證署這邊"},{"start":27122.518,"end":27141.545,"text":"依照行政院的決議在這個計畫裡面呢就列出這個經費是107億那我們調查局會獨立建置分析系統最主要原因就是因為我們負責國家安全跟犯罪調查兩項重大任務那麼後端的分析系統的規格"},{"start":27142.705,"end":27162.974,"text":"沒有辦法跟其他的單位相整合所以我們才會把這個經費給獨立出來也就是說107億裡面有總共是有8億元的經費是由吊車局來執行那麼我們今年執行了就是5億零4百萬以上報告黃委員"},{"start":27170.475,"end":27195.268,"text":"我想齁,我具體的講,讓大海局也好,讓警政署也好,可以清晰的了解第一個,當初在通報法的時候,放入了網路流量記錄這件事情你們應該知道,社會上是有反對的聲音的那個時候對我們來講,我當然請教了很多老師的看法"},{"start":27196.906,"end":27223.097,"text":"那他們支持這個計畫認為有必要性所以我們扛住了那個壓力我最後黨團所提出來的版本我還是把網路流量紀錄給放進去了但是去年在審法案的過程當中我同時也關心說到底要花多少錢所以我才請你們去做一個評估但我必須要老實說如果印象沒錯的話"},{"start":27224.485,"end":27250.634,"text":"那個評估大概花了一千八百萬如果我印象沒記錯,應該是花了一千八百萬叫中華電信還是中華電信的一個子公司出了一個評估報告我老實講,我看了一千八百萬的報告我不知道那個報告為什麼值一千八百萬我很誠實的講我看完了以後,完全不知道為什麼要花一千八百萬"},{"start":27252.867,"end":27275.944,"text":"做那種東西的報告連裡面他推薦使用的軟體都有問題我在法案審查的過程當中我都很清楚的點出來現在我最擔心的是什麼現在我最擔心的是所謂的網路流浪紀錄在電信業者的手上那等於是完全就是他們獨佔的市場坐地起價坐地起價打納稅人啊"},{"start":27281.913,"end":27305.039,"text":"當肥羊在宰這個是我最擔心的事情那你說招標案動了動了沒有辦法執行事情沒有辦法這樣簡化了你們到第二輪以前你們還有機會把整個付款的期程什麼事情要付多少錢"},{"start":27306.522,"end":27318.901,"text":"什麼時候付多少錢他的網路流量紀錄是按照每個月來收嗎像在繳電話費一樣嗎還是他一次要收一年電信公司他們開出來的條件是什麼"},{"start":27321.513,"end":27329.279,"text":"那三大電信業者不要以為好像data在他們手上可以坐地起價我愛怎麼開價就怎麼開價從197億到107億那我這樣看起來他那個價格彈性非常有彈性啊"},{"start":27339.591,"end":27367.153,"text":"本來不是說要197億現在107億就可以做了哇一口氣少了90億聽起來好像毫無氣甘願但大家在更關心的事情是什麼更關心的事情是你背後後面的那個成本結構到底是怎麼算出來的所以我具體的講這個案子先保留到時候要處理的時候也不是只有處理你們掉下去啦警政署那邊"},{"start":27368.464,"end":27389.685,"text":"我們會一併處理那在這個之前請調查局跟警政署這邊聯繫你們現在跟廠商談判你們那個付款的期程到底是怎麼定的付款的期程到底是怎麼定的那我們才能夠決定說在預算審查的把關上到底要怎麼做會比較好"},{"start":27390.273,"end":27413.454,"text":"因為這個第一個月齁 我必須要老實講 一簽下去喔那個有定毛效應所謂有定毛效應啊 是那個電信業者知道可以扒這麼多毛了以後以後每年每年喔那個網路流量紀錄不是編一年的預算然後就幫你一直收集欸 那是每年每年要弄欸我現在腦袋裡面在想的是一年一百億喔"},{"start":27414.639,"end":27425.715,"text":"一年一百億丟下去這個網路流量紀錄在我們犯罪偵查上面我們做了這個投資它的效益到底是什麼現在我必須要老實講"},{"start":27427.179,"end":27451.849,"text":"我被一些老師說服他們跟我說有需要所以我們扛住壓力放進去了但是我們同時要對納稅人負責這個東西一定下去了以後是一年一百億一年一百億這樣子搞你搞到最後是網路流量紀錄我們會具體的review你每一年因為這個網路流量紀錄你多偵破了多少案件"},{"start":27453.083,"end":27473.23,"text":"你多偵破多少案件 查獲多少犯罪所得你如果說國家丟一百億下去結果出來了他的效益真的又到網路流量紀錄因為有這個網路流量紀錄因此而偵破的案件數是慘不忍睹的話我們大家都要共同"},{"start":27474.635,"end":27496.318,"text":"背這個責任所以請注意我們現在在談的不是一百萬不是一千萬甚至不是一億是每一年要丟多少錢在這件事情上面我們目前針對網路流量紀錄它可以產生的效益都還只是空中的大餅化成具體的東西到底長什麼樣子都還沒有人知道"},{"start":27503.563,"end":27521.376,"text":"黃委員剛剛提的東西我覺得非常重要,而且我們也不應該讓電信業者坐地起價變價格他們說了算,然後給你亂抬高一堆價格所以目前是這樣,看起來是這樣108109我們就保留108及1092"},{"start":27530.11,"end":27559.061,"text":"可是因為你跟109是一樣的沒有關係可以先同意他的就保留真的嗎 看完委員沒有啦所以我剛說108 109就保留嘛看大家意思沒有 我們要尊重每一個委員發言的權利啦好不好你也不能說他們誰講的笑話反正我們就108 109保留啦好不好"},{"start":27559.994,"end":27575.261,"text":"好那108 109我們就保留送協商第三幕 監視科學及通訊監察業務第108 109案保留送協商繼續處理第12款37項調查局的主決議第二案號第110案至114案"},{"start":27586.867,"end":27609.1,"text":"我先跟那個標局那邊提一個我之前有跟你們要那個網路流量分析預算的細目報告我到現在還沒有拿到你回去了解一下好不好因為我之前在質詢的時候就有跟你們要了可是我到現在還沒拿到因為我這邊有記錄那我們就繼續處理"},{"start":27615.796,"end":27643.51,"text":"好 那個第110案 主決請問一下第110案 法務部這邊機關有意見沒有意見 那我們就依照修正後的主決議通過第111案 撤案那第111案 撤案那第112案請問一下那個陳俊委員有沒有意見"},{"start":27644.906,"end":27673.469,"text":"好沒有的話那請問機關有意見沒有意見那沒有意見我們就依照主決意通過好那第113案請問機關有意見沒有意見好沒有的話就依照主決意通過那第114案請問機關有意見沒有意見好沒有意見的話就依照主決意通過那主決意提案案號第110案至114案第1213114召案通過第110修正通過第111撤案"},{"start":27677.91,"end":27682.193,"text":"討論事項第一案已經處理完畢 作以下宣告本案審查完畢 提報院會院會討論前 區教育黨團協商院會討論時 由吳釗偉中線說明"},{"start":27691.455,"end":27716.856,"text":"現在進行討論事項第二案繼續審查一四年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於法務部主管法務部矯正署作業基金收支部分請參閱會審表及提案記一案在哪裡好案號一"},{"start":27720.439,"end":27726.508,"text":"請問委員你有沒有要補充說明就預算提案作業基金預算提案"},{"start":27728.668,"end":27744.962,"text":"這邊的話因為我發現矯正機關的基金收支從107年度起就開始由盈轉虧短處情形有擴增的趨勢那麼到了114年度預計短處高達1億0896萬是近5年的新高那麼所以呢這個"},{"start":27755.257,"end":27782.039,"text":"應該要更妥善的去控制各類的成本及費用支出透過開源節流的方式可以達到積極改善短處的目標然後以維護基金的財務健全所以在這裡提案凍結矯正機關作業基金稅出一千萬然後提出專案報告後才可以動之好 請問就這個部分各位委員有沒有其他意見"},{"start":27790.531,"end":27809.197,"text":"這個部分是不是改組決議沒有翁委員有考慮嗎您這個部分因為這個是在第64頁矯正機關的單位預算64頁等一下我們看一下64頁矯正機關在這那是作業基金我看一下在這"},{"start":27819.619,"end":27835.791,"text":"部署單位預算的64頁主席我確認一下現在我們目前在處理的是他的一個作業基金那在他的64頁當中這總金額是原列數是12億2442萬1000元那翁委員希望凍結1000萬頁碼是64頁嗎"},{"start":27851.524,"end":27870.954,"text":"是64頁嗎 為什麼我們看到金額不是這個呢我現在確定一下 這個是矯正機關作業基金附屬單位預算 沒錯吧矯正機關作業基金預算嘛單位預算 對不起 那個是單位預算64頁"},{"start":27878.96,"end":27901.924,"text":"也不是呢,是不是我們可以請...帶我們查明這個預算書的內容在這裡,在這裡是什麼?喔,這...一樣啊作業基金在這...剛剛拿出來,這本啊就這本啊,一樣嘛戶...戶屬單位預算嘛那麼64頁嘛64頁上面的金額"},{"start":27911.286,"end":27930.436,"text":"12億多 對不起 上面我們看不到是12億請問12億的部分最底下的是不是 最底下的與收支逾促預計表業務成本與費用及業務外費用合計12億6154萬4千元這第13頁合計在這裡能不能請"},{"start":27941.258,"end":27957.19,"text":"因為剛剛田委員說明了齁那麼因為這是作業基金啊那剛剛矯正署是不是就如果如剛剛所說的凍結一千萬有什麼影響請矯正署來回答"},{"start":27960.075,"end":27973.733,"text":"跟委員報告我們在這個作業基金因為有修法在109年的7月15號修法以後雙人的勞作金提撥比例是由37.5%提高到60%"},{"start":27977.618,"end":28001.154,"text":"所以在114年度預算編列是4億7265萬3千元較舊法的時候增加1億7724萬元那另外就是非屬作業產生的改善生活設施跟照護事項這些政策性的支出有持續擴增所以114年度預算編列3億"},{"start":28006.397,"end":28032.396,"text":"402萬為近5年來的最高那如果排除上開飛鼠座位產生的政策性支出的話基金營業成果還是有剩餘的114年度業務剩餘預計是3億723萬7千元那所以本部矯正署已經就收入提升跟成本控管積極來因應"},{"start":28033.837,"end":28060.008,"text":"而且基金近10年度整體業務收入是呈現穩定成長的趨勢以上敬請人以動解改題書面報告 謝謝好 請問各位委員還有沒有其他意見因為機關代表的意見跟提案委員的意見是不一致的那麼這裡還是不能"},{"start":28061.089,"end":28084.184,"text":"了解所謂的為什麼那麼機關代表認為如果是不凍結會有所影響這裡還是不清楚啊因為你們是希望以主決議那我們這也沒看到你們是你的主決議啊因為就目前提案委員所說的是認為說短處有去有擴增的趨勢嘛"},{"start":28085.56,"end":28099.022,"text":"那你們剛剛的報告是說未來預計114年預計短處的金額這個是一個預估但是如果實際上你們按照你們的算法是並沒有的那到底這關聯性是如何呢"},{"start":28105.666,"end":28132.125,"text":"如果這一千萬遭受凍結的話會影響到作業營運收入各項照護事項的推動比如說我們有一些燃油還有一些我們的生活醫療生活設施機器設備的折舊另外就是說清涵疾病醫療還有受刑免職女救急經費等等都會受到影響"},{"start":28135.626,"end":28147.535,"text":"這個預算書裡面都沒有表達這些內容啊你們的確送來的資料太過簡略以至於我們委員提案委員認為說你有短處那麼要求要凍結事實上請問這個事情有沒有去溝通啊"},{"start":28149.298,"end":28169.887,"text":"那有溝通應該溝通上有提供必要的資料那我們除了提案委員有溝通上提供給提案委員的資料我們如果看了也可以去做理解跟判斷目前我們手上就預算書預算書上64頁下面最下面一整行就是12億多然後呢我們翻查前面的內容也看不到您剛剛所說的內容那我們要如何進行審議"},{"start":28176.46,"end":28194.405,"text":"那是不是也可以給我們看一下到底是在哪裡市長要表示意見是主席還有各位委員因為這個我是簽任這個小中作業基金的這個主管負責人那在這邊補充報告因為剛才小中署署長他所說的可能太過這個文嚴"},{"start":28196.986,"end":28211.5,"text":"我簡單簡化他的邏輯跟櫃員報告就是說事實上假設作業基金以作業基金的本質來講事實上我們如果以營業作業產生的收入跟支出事實上我們是有剩餘的"},{"start":28212.341,"end":28235.771,"text":"但是我們主要是因為兩個原因所以造成短處第一個是109年的建議行刑法規定這個修法之後規定我們的勞作金的提撥比例提升了很多所以從那一年開始每年我們所編列的要支出的收容的勞作金要提撥的部分就很高另外一個部分就是有一些所謂的"},{"start":28238.012,"end":28251.797,"text":"政策性的支出也就是我們其實是挪移因為國家財政是相當困難所以我們要監索很多的這一些照顧這個說我們改善生活設施跟照顧的事項"},{"start":28252.677,"end":28267.13,"text":"必須要優先由這個作業基金裡面來做支出所以所謂的政策性支出就是我們其實是挪用了這個作業基金所賺來的錢累積起來的我們先行來使用那公務預算我們也不敢去要求說這個主計總數再給我們多撥補回"},{"start":28270.252,"end":28296.208,"text":"所以我們是一直在用這樣的方式在營運我們的作業基金所以作業基金我們很努力要去賺錢所以剛剛這個署長也有提到近十年來其實我們的這個作業的營運這個業務的收入是有穩定在成長的當然後續我們會更加的努力所以說懇請各位委員因為我們找這種作業基金其實營運相當的不容易如果可以凍結這麼多錢的話"},{"start":28297.349,"end":28321.941,"text":"可能在很多的業務特別是所謂的政策性支出上面我們在至少在前面的我們都會有所影響或delay所以拜託這個可以免於動解讓我們會持續盡盡努力以上報告好 總召委好 謝謝因為一般在作業基金它本身它的特性跟公務預算是不一樣的所以我們在審議的邏輯會有所差別"},{"start":28322.543,"end":28346.173,"text":"那剛剛機關代表有趕快來做提示我們看到預算書的第六到第七頁這裡面提到了你們的基金數額是38億餘元可用資金是32億餘元那剛剛次長所提到的這個作業基金本身就是一個營業型的會有營收收入也要支出那聽起來目前的收入面部分營業收入面部分"},{"start":28346.693,"end":28362.323,"text":"是有逐步成長但是呢比較大的是勞作金的支出是因為我們政府法令的修改要給予這個受刑人他支付他的勞作金是提高的所以造成你們在支出上的增加的幅度比較高大概是聽起來這個意思"},{"start":28363.504,"end":28391.018,"text":"那另外呢剛剛署長所提到的您提到的這些錢凍結了之後會有什麼影響你提到無非是收容人的技能訓練經費收容人的醫療生活設施及技訓設備專案經費以及受刑人補助他的子女就學經費補貼收容人侵含疾病的醫療費收容人的沐浴及吹掌燃料費還有新入監收容人的基本生活費這裡面算一算林林總統看起來也大概超過3億多啦"},{"start":28392.279,"end":28409.004,"text":"那我的一個疑問是說既然你們的作業基金的規模是38億可用資金32億那剛剛經過次長說明了因為政府修改法令提高的勞作金造成我們這個作業基金在支出上的大幅的提高但是事實上我們昨年的作業成收入的成長是穩定成長只是這個過程當中所造成的短處在帳面上是短處的"},{"start":28414.025,"end":28436.204,"text":"那如果予以凍結這1000萬會造成你們調度上的問題是這樣子嗎我幾乎是要用很短的時間去理解你們這個作業基金的問題如果是這樣子的話我真的還是要跟提案委員做一個建議啦我不知道是不是這樣的解讀啦因為作業基金的本身它是輿出是累積的它跟我們公務預算的支出不太一樣因為公務預算呢你給它多少錢"},{"start":28437.301,"end":28458.807,"text":"花掉就花掉了也沒有了那麼保留的就繳回國庫大概就是這樣子但是作業基金它本身是在一個大水庫裡面去循環那麼處理的方式是覺得只是單純的說希望免於凍結這個我們在委員會審查的時候比較難具體的掌握那你們希望怎麼樣能夠讓這個作業基金可以因應著政府提高勞作金之後"},{"start":28459.387,"end":28474.272,"text":"在你們有效的持續的提高營業收入的情況之下維持穩定的運作這一點的解決方案事實上要提供給委員會委員來參考那當然如果我們對於提案委員覺得有自然難行的部分你們有其他的替代方案嗎是不是一併說明好 那翁委員"},{"start":28478.925,"end":28499.298,"text":"其實剛聽了次長說明之後我就更能夠了解這個為什麼看起來這個勞作就是現在講的這個矯正作業基金會出現逐年短促的情況那重要就是說你們有一些應該是政策性要用公務預算去補助的"},{"start":28499.978,"end":28516.289,"text":"應該是要去支出的比如說改善收容人的生活設施及照護事項等這些費用你本來應該是要公務預算去編的但是你現在不用公務預算去編去支出這些費用反過來又是去用作業基金"},{"start":28517.597,"end":28542.705,"text":"是不是這樣的意思 請問有一部分是這樣 但不是全部好 有一部分是這樣嘛對 那所以就是這一部分其實也就造成了作業基金它雖然說看起來每年它是有賺錢有累積盈餘但是因為它支出的項目很多包含它本來不應該是要用作業基金的費用去支出的項目那變得都要由作業基金去支出了所以才造成它有短促的情況"},{"start":28543.756,"end":28567.341,"text":"跟委員報告這個其實是國家財政支出的一個選擇也就是說並不是說不能用作業基金來支應因為作業基金畢竟它就是一個大水庫那當作業基金它營運當然我們是希望說它能夠一直賺錢累積或是這個循環的概念但是當它有一定的餘額的時候在一段時間內確實也可以去挪用這個基金的錢來支應緊急的需要"},{"start":28567.941,"end":28590.641,"text":"那但是因為要跟這個行政院來爭取法務部整體的預算要去多邊提高這些經費也並非容易所以每年我們在跟主席總統在協商的時候其實他也會希望說我們的作業基金能夠負擔一部分這一些政策性的支出所以是這樣子來的那這並不能夠說他不應該用或說怎麼樣這其實是國家整體的財政的考量"},{"start":28591.161,"end":28619.765,"text":"那我們也會盡力的繼續後續每年我們都會去跟這個族裔總署來協商看這個基金我們當然不可能讓這個基金破產所以說在每一年我們都會重新去解釋這個事情假設需要公務預算來撥補或調整我們也會跟族裔總署來做爭取但是今年的這個狀況其實跟過去109年之後修法其實並沒有太大的差別那另外一部分就是柯委員所指出的我們還是需要努力的"},{"start":28620.566,"end":28626.654,"text":"來做營收的增加這個部分我想我們的矯正機關都會努力來爭取"},{"start":28630.626,"end":28649.671,"text":"因為既然它是屬於政策性的支出也就是說當時在訂立這個政策的時候就應該考慮到就是說它的經費來源從哪裡去支出嘛那也就是原來應該預計譬如說法務部訂立這樣的政策它可能會要從公務預算去撥補可是現在就是沒有實際上沒有撥補那到底是當時政策訂立的錯誤還是說是主計總處"},{"start":28653.939,"end":28680.824,"text":"在這件事情上面他們沒有去支持作業基金一定有作業基金它的使用管理辦法那不應該要透過作業基金去支應的那你卻是要用作業基金去支應過然剛剛次長講這是一個大水凸概念反正他也沒有說哪些項目不能用但是我認為說這樣子的一個做法它確實會造成大家會認為說整個作業基金是虧損的"},{"start":28685.542,"end":28688.625,"text":"對好那接下來我要講就是說基本上只是凍結一千萬我們希望就是說你要提出一個專案報告制度上面然後這個未來怎麼會改善這樣的一個狀況因為我們這次審查預算也發現很多的基金出了問題"},{"start":28701.291,"end":28729.02,"text":"本來不應該透過基金這個的這個經費去支出的就都變成是由基金去支像就業安定基金就是不是就是一個例子那現在你矯正機關作業基金我覺得也類似就我剛聽起來的情況是如此那麼這個整個來說我只有動一千萬我也沒有給你減劣對不對然後你要提出專案報告均同意後才可以動之這應該不會影響到你們作業那中召委"},{"start":28730.131,"end":28753.811,"text":"好 謝謝剛剛列席機關代表黃次長的說明啦其實 陳儒剛剛所說的這是一個政府的財政選擇因為作業基金它事實上是透過有一點營業的方式取得收入扣除支出所餘處所留下來的累積那麼這個講個簡單的說法就像台灣電力公司一樣當我們電價被動漲那或者說還漲"},{"start":28758.717,"end":28772.145,"text":"或者說漲幅不能完全反映各用電戶的成本的時候比如民生用電比較是基於優惠的立場那這樣的他的作業基金就會產生不足不足的時候可能就要用政府的預算來撥補那這個效果就是財政選擇"},{"start":28775.034,"end":28804.538,"text":"因為政府的預算編列是來自全體納稅人繳的稅金但是台電的漁畜產生的是用電戶他們實際被收的電費跟他們所支應的成本不相對稱的關係那因此呢今天換過來角度看相反我們目前 目前繳證署的作業基金是政府沒有用公務預算去編列的部分由作業基金來支應等於是拿這些作業基金勞作人的"},{"start":28805.615,"end":28824.722,"text":"去營收的收入來支應或許用公務預算或許用作業基金來支應那這是一個選擇那某個角度來講有點像是用作業基金來補我們政府編列預算相對應的不足啦剛好跟台電的情況是相反的"},{"start":28825.282,"end":28848.244,"text":"那我是覺得呢這裡面沒有絕對的對或錯啦也就是說今天如果主張剛剛所列的那些四項補貼補助津貼那麼都要編列公務預算那等於我們國家要從我們納稅人收來的這些公務預算多撥一些給法務部去支應矯正署那矯正署他目前不是用這些預算他把這個部分用作業基因來支應那等於是"},{"start":28849.165,"end":28864.562,"text":"這些作業基金付出的勞作力的這些受刑人他們所透過付出所營收來的這些收入他用來支應全體不管有沒有參加勞作的受刑人他們的生活設施的改善"},{"start":28865.342,"end":28894.383,"text":"所以我是覺得這個觀念上就是看大家要不要做接受啦那我個人是覺得本身是覺得說如果繳證署聽起來我們站在省公務預算幫國家的納稅人把關的情況之下等於是有一點點的去占一點點受刑人參加勞作的受刑人的便宜用他們勞作上來的收入去補貼全體受刑人生活設備的改善而不是用政府的公務預算去支應差別就在這裡"},{"start":28895.223,"end":28911.268,"text":"那我是覺得呢 這裡也不是所謂的凍結一簽或者提書面報告使得動之的問題我覺得如果真的要指出他什麼問題就是一個主決的方式要求矯正署未來要求法務部如果委員認為應該要由公務預算致應那就寫個報告出來"},{"start":28915.117,"end":28933.586,"text":"那如果認為這個很難從政府預算去爭取公務預算支出要用作業基金來支出用這個部分參與勞作的受刑人的賺取的收入來照顧全體的受刑人那麼也顯明白講清楚那我是覺得比較傾向提出一個主決議供未來委員會審查的時候參考那在這也誠懇的對提案委員表達"},{"start":28938.128,"end":28963.477,"text":"這個案子不是透過凍結的預算來解凍有意義的啦這個是整個基金的使用的用途到底要採取一個怎麼樣的選擇的問題啦那以上建議就看翁委員的那我們還是尊重翁委員法務部主管矯正機關作業基金第一案保留送協商"},{"start":28968.238,"end":28972.822,"text":"討論事項第二案已經處理完畢 作以下宣告本案審查完畢 提報議員會議員會討論前續交由黨團協商議員會討論時由吳釗偉中線說明"},{"start":28983.76,"end":29006.585,"text":"討論事項第三案 現在進行討論事項第三案 繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分 關於法務部主管毒品房子基金收支部分 請參閱會審表及提案 暨二案案號一 基金用途 翁曉琳委員請問有要補充什麼"},{"start":29011.905,"end":29023.274,"text":"其實33頁的嘛我應該是兩個案 我有沒有一個已經改組決議我現在這邊已經看不太清楚了"},{"start":29039.844,"end":29053.835,"text":"好 那我針對這個毒品防治基金因為它從108年度成立到現在五年了然後相關副省作業的辦理情形也不是很理想那麼有些業務計劃並沒有遵守實際上的這個結案的情形那麼同時"},{"start":29057.206,"end":29077.581,"text":"就是對整個的這個研究補助計畫作業相關流程還有沒有依現實辦理的原因等等其實都有待說明基於提升基金運用的效率所以我在這邊提出這個凍結毒品防治基金的稅出預算一千萬提出專案報告之後才可以凍結然後那第二個部分"},{"start":29087.028,"end":29109.494,"text":"我就一併講就兩個案子請問周委第一案跟第二案那我們就是主案來審查那就先第一案我剛剛已經講完了好那請問第一案的部分各位委員有沒有補充好那機關這邊有什麼意見我請保護司來說明"},{"start":29114.026,"end":29133.905,"text":"主席各位委員 因為有關獨房基金的管理委員會幕僚單位是在華府的保護室針對提案委員的兩個主要的意見第一個是在前端副省作業的辦理未經理想第二是在後端結案的時候並沒有確實去遵守結案的期限規範我這邊做一個說明"},{"start":29135.606,"end":29160.341,"text":"那獨房基金最主要是按照中央政府各部會他在辦理毒品防治的相關業務在公務預算編列不足或者是不及編列的情況之下那由獨房基金來制定所以雖然他是編在華務部的下面但是事實上他是由華務部、衛福部、教育部、內政部跟其他的一些企圖的一個機關共同來編列預算的"},{"start":29162.802,"end":29178.118,"text":"那也因為各個那個組織的各部會他的相提的相關計劃事實上他在補助各直轄市縣政府或者民團等等的一個單位因此他們提出來的一個預算每年大概都會高達十幾億"},{"start":29179.319,"end":29184.483,"text":"所以我們在幕僚單位作業的時候一定要先經過出核然後經過獨房基金管理委員會再來做一個審核最後覺得必須刪減到剩下我們政府預算可以容納的範圍內再去修正他們所提的相關的一些計畫"},{"start":29197.091,"end":29216.566,"text":"那因此在整個審核的過程當中跟互審的過程當中就會比較曠日會時所以以前到現在我們也一直在改善因此呢我們也督促了中央各部會在提出相關計劃的時候應該要盡快提到管理委員會來做一個審核那只要他一提出來我們也會加開臨時會來做審核那這個是第一個部分"},{"start":29220.849,"end":29236.135,"text":"第二個有關在結案的部分最主要都是在單據的核銷跟資料的成果的一個呈報就像剛才跟委員跟主席報告的一樣它沿著上因為它是補助到地方職小市縣政府甚至很多民團的部分"},{"start":29236.815,"end":29239.557,"text":"因此他們在單季的核銷上面難免會有錯落那我們要求他補正之後他們再轉轉到中央各部位再轉到我們這邊幕僚單位來之後呢那時間真的確實是會誠如委員所提案講的不盡理想的情況"},{"start":29251.766,"end":29277.826,"text":"就這一部分我們已經也製作了一個核銷指引請各部會一定要去加強督促所有提出計畫的相關部會跟提出申請補助的所有地方直轄市縣政府跟民團能夠按照期限來辦理核銷所以委員您的提案部分我們一定會檢討改進但是也建議能不能不要凍結改成主決議提出並報告 以上說明好 莊召委"},{"start":29282.096,"end":29305.817,"text":"我想因為這個案子說到毒飲犯更生保護的部分我們這邊看到一個很重要的就是台灣更生保護會其實不是只有台灣更生保護會在從事這第一案你們這裡談的一樣就是說你們剛剛提到的是民團那麼其實我這裡兩個案一併講因為剛剛提案也是兩個案一併講"},{"start":29311.365,"end":29325.272,"text":"現在是做我們的動結1000萬那麼對於毒品防治基金補助作業要點第12點的規定這個部分好那我說明一下其實那麼毒品犯更生人"},{"start":29326.365,"end":29352.805,"text":"出監後他們所受到的這些輔導並不是每個更生人都願意接受或參與到民間團體的協助那事實上在我們政府不可能透過政府的編制內人力來執行這些更生人的復歸社會那其實常中有的需要長期的醫療資源投入的也所在多有那我舉例來講在我所處的屏東有一個叫牧恩之家"},{"start":29353.645,"end":29367.892,"text":"這個穆文哲家本身他就是透過牧師結合宗教信仰讓適合的更生人願意到他們那裡去接受這個讀引的戒斷其實讀引的戒斷其實這些讀引更生人在今服刑期間都已經戒斷了"},{"start":29368.832,"end":29386.634,"text":"重要的是要復歸社會 怎麼樣讓他們不要被過去的人脈系統就是這些壞朋友啦 在找上他那有些 其實大部分的毒品更生人都被原生家庭所斷絕 我說很多因為呢 毒品犯他更生人在在先服刑期間我們遇到很多狀況"},{"start":29387.535,"end":29405.635,"text":"他們就是被原生家庭因為很多借錢、犯偷竊造成原生家庭很大的困擾因此很多更生人出監控他幾乎沒有辦法跟原來的原生家庭做連結那這個時候很容易就又陷入了原來他那個毒癮犯的一個循環系統"},{"start":29406.616,"end":29425.585,"text":"那麼我們覺得呢應該要重視的是說這些協助參與的民間團體他們有沒有達到協助這些更生人復歸社會那麼這種情況之下如果只是因為這些作業要點的規定未能落實那我們覺得呢當然主管機關還是要繼續的加以輔導但是以凍結預算的方式那我們會很擔心現在呢"},{"start":29431.669,"end":29443.691,"text":"這些接受政府基金支持的這些民間團體他們目前推動更生保護的情況會不會受到耽誤我還是要強調一下更生保護在我們毒品犯的部分"},{"start":29445.631,"end":29466.282,"text":"其實絕大部分我知道的民間團體沒有人要去碰啦真的獨隱患的部分問題很大所以能夠投入的民間團體真的是少之又少我所接觸到的大部分都是有宗教情懷不管他是屬於傳統的民間信仰的還是屬於像我剛剛所說的基督教系統的"},{"start":29467.102,"end":29487.017,"text":"他們呢 天主教系統的 他們都是要有這樣的一個奉獻的精神才願意協助社會來照顧這些毒癮犯的更生人那這種情況之下 如果我們對於他們在於基金補助作業要點上未能符合規定 那來苛求那麼造成他們在接受補助上的事成一語言蕩"},{"start":29487.657,"end":29503.538,"text":"甚至要自掏腰包我覺得應該不是我們審議基金預算的本意而我們建議是希望說能夠針對問題由租款機關拿出解決之道是不是我們的規定補助作為要點其實太過嚴格了因為我們政府訂的都是房幣"},{"start":29504.699,"end":29522.213,"text":"都是防弊但是你要知道會投入毒品犯的根深保護的社團它根本就是公益社團我當然不是說所有的公益社團不會有弊端不會有從中謀利的情況還是會有饒恕死但是絕大部分會做出的都是持足的 是有奉獻感的社團"},{"start":29522.873,"end":29542.494,"text":"那你們苛責這些牧師 苛責這些住持他們要去熟悉我們政府的這個補助做要點要能夠備其單據有些時候善心人士的善款往往就是無名氏錢放了就走那這個時候物資也是這樣如此所以他們本身在受理這些社會各界的"},{"start":29543.075,"end":29559.982,"text":"物資捐助以及來自政府的基金補助的時候他們可能並沒有很清楚的去區分來自民間的善款基於彼此的信任他們是不需要你單據或者說呢他只要一個愛心你就可以對外公開徵信但是對於政府補助的基金他事實上要求要什麼要憑證要按其提報那麼要有一個實務的一個指引"},{"start":29564.964,"end":29569.266,"text":"那這些都是我們政府想當然爾我覺得我們在審議這些預算的時候不能想當然爾認為這些社會團體他們都像我們考試及格的公務同仁一樣在機關裡面有財主機關有主計人員的協助輔導能夠能完整的備齊這些核銷的單據來跟補助單位來過請款我是覺得在這裡我還是要再度呼籲對於毒品更生人協助的這些公益社團我們應該予以更大的支持"},{"start":29593.377,"end":29608.124,"text":"而不是在這些程序上予以刁難那如果真的有為了防止弊端我們必須要善盡若死的也希望是用輔導的方式來出發而不是以凍結或者以懲罰的方式來為之這是以上的建議那看這樣子歐委員這個部分是不是就還是堅持這部分要凍結"},{"start":29619.282,"end":29629.27,"text":"毒品防治基金總共有6億8千多萬那我現在是凍結1000萬那其目的基本上也是希望讓這個毒品防治基金的補助的"},{"start":29630.924,"end":29656.107,"text":"這個相關的計劃未來能夠實施的更有成效而且他還是由這個基金去支出的相關的補助經費那麼不管今天是民間團體或是任何一個機關如果說他們拿了這個錢按計劃該什麼時候提報該什麼時候要核銷這個都是應該要按照那個結案的時間的相關的規定去做的不能說"},{"start":29656.687,"end":29678.295,"text":"因為覺得說我們現在的這個補助作業程序很麻煩那麼因此該核銷的就不核銷然後該結案的不結案有些是已經拖了非常久了但這個也是應該這個如果說裡面的作業程序是有問題就是不便民然後造成這個相關的民間團體很多麻煩的話"},{"start":29679.255,"end":29695.992,"text":"那也應該要去檢討這個作業要點那我認為說其實動一千萬然後提出專案報告之後然後看怎麼樣去檢討這個制度然後再來動之一千萬可以啦"},{"start":29698.223,"end":29727.078,"text":"因為毒品防治基金這個沒有錯但是現在就是看起來這個毒品防治成果也不好嘛再販率也很高啊稀土人口不斷增加如果大家想法差不多就保留好了就保留啦不然大家各說各話好那案號第一案部分我們就同樣的是拿到我們這個防治基金的錢耶能不能讓我讓我說明一下可以嗎"},{"start":29728.678,"end":29751.025,"text":"我想翁委員的一個提醒我們一定會悉心受教啦那剛剛您提到了有關整個核銷的問題其實剛我前面已經做過報告說明我們在檢討改進所以已經有訂定了一個製作核銷的指引了請各部位一定要督促那受補助的一個地方指甲市縣政府跟民團公益民團能夠切實徵手啦"},{"start":29752.165,"end":29765.029,"text":"那委員您的一個那個用意我們很清楚所以我們是不是能建議也不要動一千就動五百然後改成第二案的時候我們再一併做處理可以嗎好吧那就動五百接受那個市長建議謝謝委員這有共識了嗎書面對動五百改題書面"},{"start":29776.488,"end":29781.851,"text":"我沒有看過你們的書面報告寫的怎麼樣如果又是寫的哩哩辣啦這個不會那我覺得還是要看嘛這個指引的這部分我們已經有這些的我們現在毒品的那部分的防治的部分我們會再跟委員來做"},{"start":29798.444,"end":29804.349,"text":"做一個一個一個報告在書面報告我們會充實這邊委員關心的一個內容那是不是可以動500改書面這個這個"},{"start":29807.663,"end":29833.934,"text":"那這次我就先提亮司長這邊就動500然後改書面報告但是我會認真看這個書面報告因為我還有下一年我看我說不定還是會繼續待在市委會就算我不在市委會我還是會盯著你們的報告盯著你們的預算謝謝委員提亮翁委員這樣就是書面的部分你們要經過同意後才解凍"},{"start":29835.031,"end":29861.23,"text":"那就不經同意了嘛就不用要求經過同意嘛對反正我還有三年可以解釋好那第一案的部分大家如果說有共識的話那我們就改為凍結五百萬元那經過書面報告後那才予以解凍那案號第二案"},{"start":29862.679,"end":29890.296,"text":"也是基金用途那這部分翁委員還要補充嗎其實這個地方也是就他們的計畫並沒有寫得很清楚啦就是相關的這個毒品防治基金這個所謂協助復歸社會及預防再犯是他的主要輔助方向可是他在預算書當中呢卻沒有很清楚的明定關鍵的指標"},{"start":29891.294,"end":29896.296,"text":"對所以我在這裡就提出這個凍結500萬然後提出專案報告不過這邊的話是不是乾脆也是凍結500萬提出書面報告好嗎"},{"start":29905.126,"end":29931.772,"text":"是病案吧這是病案嗎我先接一下那個恩惠媛其實我覺得我個人是我是認同您說的衡量指標這個事情因為就我所知道剛剛本來我以為在談這案就是更生保護會他們目前接受的毒品更生人他們目前出監的再犯率這個的確要追蹤那如果因為我剛也表述過了就我所知啊不是每個毒品"},{"start":29932.968,"end":29943.304,"text":"出監後更生人的處遇他都會願意跟台灣更生保護會去合作那如果說是我們更生保護會他處遇上"},{"start":29943.973,"end":29969.054,"text":"能夠獲至再販率較低的成效那反而我們應該去支持的但是如果我們有一個清楚的指標可以告訴我們這個更生保護會接受他服務的更生人他以後一年後的再販率有明顯的比別人低那我們為什麼要去支持這個就要打個問號所以我是覺得應該要有一個績效指標讓我們在每一年預算審查的時候給予他們一個目標上管理的一個鞭策"},{"start":29969.815,"end":29990.514,"text":"那至於說呢 另外的其他的績效指標呢 舉例來講這些保護性的社工 這些個案管理師 這些的人力其實在我們地方政府 過去我所服務的情況之下這些的個案人數跟案件比呢 也是我們一個指標管理的因為一個個案管理師 他不能承接太多的 大量的個案"},{"start":29991.4,"end":30006.209,"text":"量一多他就沒辦法照顧得周全所以如果未來我們在預算上予以支持那我們也希望說未來呢更生保護會他的個案管理師也要能訂出逐年的能夠跟上其他的這樣的個案管理的一個配比"},{"start":30007.109,"end":30023.332,"text":"不要負荷過度那這才是我們要的目的我相信呢這些基金的預算的支出都是政府呢還有我們社會希望能夠降低毒飲人口的一個很重要的目標所以我是覺得呢如果兩個方式嘛一個就是如果能夠提出一個書面報告把剛剛在文委員提案人他所要求的這些績效指標能夠訂定一個齊成的目標讓大家可以來依循我覺得這很好"},{"start":30033.973,"end":30040.936,"text":"那不然的話呢 如果要用凍結提書面報告 比較有鞭策力那我建議是併同上岸 凍500 那提書面報告"},{"start":30044.912,"end":30064.282,"text":"因為這是兩個不同的案子那我現在提的這個案子這個是針對矯正關戶社區預防毒品防治計劃這個計劃就憋了兩億八千多萬我只動五百萬然後已經也妥協到你們提出一個書面報告就分案並列了分案好不好"},{"start":30066.83,"end":30083.976,"text":"主席能不能容我說明一下主席提案的委員我想委員在這一個提案部分有兩個部分關注第一個就是說大概在我們華埠手邊的矯正關戶社區預防毒品防護計畫當中總共編了兩億"},{"start":30091.318,"end":30098.259,"text":"88169000元那其中有關強化毒品化更生保護及社區處理支援計劃裡面就編了142193000元而且比較看起來跟113年來相較多了82679000元你認為這個部分就佔了一半這邊最主要說明一下就剛才大概那趙委"},{"start":30116.326,"end":30130.504,"text":"我們在毒品的防治部分那其中在113年總共編了五千多萬是補助台灣更生保護會在做毒品更生人的一個輔導其中是補助了67名的個案管理師"},{"start":30131.565,"end":30152.371,"text":"那因為這樣個案的管理師目前他們的一個業務量大概是一個人跟一個案件量是1比130跟各地方縣市直轄市縣政府的獨房中心他們的一個個案管理師的案件量比是1比37大概這樣加起來大概三倍多的工作量"},{"start":30153.311,"end":30175.348,"text":"第二個就是說這些毒品的更生人就初間的受刑人或者是經過緩起訴或者是說緩刑的這些毒品的更生包括成年跟兒少的部分進入到我們台根堡來接受輔導那剛才委員特別關注到他的成效我們統計了去年113年度整個所有的再換率只有16.4%"},{"start":30178.05,"end":30206.827,"text":"跟全國各所有家種的部分的一個成年的醫藥及毒品的再換率百分之44.3那真的是差非常的多那這樣的一個44.3我們訂了一個再換值推進計畫希望從111年的8月一直到103年底只要能夠降到百分之1.5就每年降百分之0.6就算打標了所以看起來台根堡他本身對於這些毒品更生產輔導真的是績效卓著那也因為這樣子"},{"start":30207.808,"end":30236.894,"text":"在新世代反毒策略行動綱領的第三期的計畫當中又加重了台根堡的責任因此我們必須在明年度今年度就114年的部分透過我們毒王基金這一項強化毒品患更生保護及涉及處理資源的部分要準備補助台根堡那161名的個案管理師最主要是在這個錢上面那這樣子的一個情況下來那我們禁用到161個人他們的案件量比大概就1比"},{"start":30238.495,"end":30262.108,"text":"50那所以這樣的一個情形我覺得這個計劃本身應該是可以達到他應有效第二個大概委員關注的有關關鍵績效指標這個部分也是很多我們獨民那管理基金會很多的委員以及獨網匯報委員一直在關注所以在113年我們已經召開過很多次的會議召集了有提案的相關有提案補助的相關部會"},{"start":30262.808,"end":30289.213,"text":"共同訂定了一個關鍵績效指標跟成效評估的相關準則現在已經擬定完成了準備在今年度在提報到行政通過之後就要即時實施所以有關這個個案的部分的一個指計劃的一個金額以及後端的一個關鍵績效指標我想我們華為部都已經做了一個充足的一個處理所以這個部分建請委員看看能不能改為主決議或者是併前案的部分去凍結500萬"},{"start":30294.11,"end":30296.151,"text":"其實我這裡也沒有提出太嚴苛的條件雖然說我這裡凍結500萬後來也妥協說你們可以提出一個書面報告其實司長您剛剛都講得很好那為什麼不在預算書上面列清楚呢"},{"start":30316.685,"end":30339.38,"text":"妳之後的報告或是在官網上面妳也可以寫就把這個剛剛講的妳們做的績效做個清楚的報告嘛因為我現在這裡意思就是說動就是動啦然後妳們書面報告什麼時候做出來然後同時公開那我們這裡就解凍我也沒有說要經過經同意但是我必須要看到妳們這裡的書面報告"},{"start":30340.62,"end":30364.978,"text":"這次這麼好的一個績效應該讓大家知道嘛然後你們觀念指標你們預計114年度要達成什麼樣的目標然後降低這個什麼再販率僅程類似這樣的話你要把它寫出來好不好好那是不是我們同意就併前岸動500萬提書跟報告分開啦分開啦就兩岸就兩岸了就這樣了啦好那我們同意啦同意同意同意對對對"},{"start":30368.192,"end":30376.056,"text":"對 我也沒有說是給你們對 不過還是要壓個時間你不要給我到年底才送的三個月內吧 好不好就三個月內三個月內 好"},{"start":30381.797,"end":30395.485,"text":"法務部主管毒品防治基金基金用途凍結500萬基金用途向下矯正公戶社區預防毒品防治計畫凍結500萬元並針對各凍結提案的要求依審查會決議提出書面報告後 使得凍結"},{"start":30404.05,"end":30421.575,"text":"在前面的那一案我好像沒有立下說要幾個月內要交書面包同樣也是三個月在基金用途的第一案討論事項第三案已經處理完畢 作以下宣告本案審查完畢 提報院會院會討論前須交由黨團協商院會討論時有無召集委員中心的說明"},{"start":30429.589,"end":30445.027,"text":"現在進行討論事項第四案繼續審查法務部韓誦財團法人台灣更生保護會財團法人福建更生保護會及財團法人犯罪被害人保護協會一四年度預算書案因為沒有委員提案均照列"},{"start":30450.618,"end":30459.946,"text":"討論事項第四案審查完畢做以下宣告本案審查完畢拟據審查報告提請院會公決院會討論前不須交由黨團協商院會討論時由吳釗己委員中線說明"},{"start":30472.998,"end":30496.656,"text":"有關本次議程討論事項通過修正之預算提案請機關將修正內容經提案委員簽名同意後送交主席台均列入公報記錄通過的決議依例文字授權主席及議事人員整理本次會議議程所列事項均已處理完畢會議進行到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":30501.754,"end":30501.775,"text":"瘋了"}]}},{"id":"16460","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16460","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db5e814c1e1875e51d2042dc10dca82677529fa0cca45d5627038b762b4d2eca475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟委員會第22次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於經濟部主管：經濟作業基金、水資源作業基金、經濟特別收入基金、核能發電後端營運基金。(處理)\n二、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣糖業股份有限公司、台灣中油股份有限公司。(處理)\n【1月8日及9日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-01-09","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-01-09T08:31:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-01-09T15:30:00+08:00","duration":25138,"影片長度":"06:58:58","委員發言時間":"08:31:02 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照業務計畫 基金來源 用途及輿促 結繳工庫等逐項審查營業基金部分 照業務計畫 營業收入 生產成本 轉投資計畫重大之建設事業 資金運用及補辦預算等逐項審查"},{"start":1933.77,"end":1951.314,"text":"現在請宣讀今日審查項目與委員提案宣讀後再進行協商請一併宣讀114年度中央政府總預算案經濟部主管附屬單位預算非營業部分經濟作業基金依業務計畫請參閱預算書二業務收支業務總收入87億零66萬3千元業務總支出76億4533萬1千元"},{"start":1961.417,"end":1982.996,"text":"本期剩余十亿五千五百三十三万两千元三 结缴公库金额两千七百一十八万六千元四 转投资计划无劣数五 固定资产建设改良扩充十八亿零七百五十七万六千元六 国库增波基金额无劣数七 补办预算资产变卖一亿三千八百八十一万三千元"},{"start":1983.837,"end":1988.702,"text":"水資源作業基金一 業務計畫請參閱預算書二 業務收支業務總收入95億9354萬1千元業務總支出114億3195萬9千元本期短處18億3841萬8千元三 結繳供庫金額無劣數"},{"start":2003.979,"end":2004.7,"text":"4.軟投資計畫無劣數5."},{"start":2004.7,"end":2006.363,"text":"固定資產建設改良擴充32億8949萬5千元6."},{"start":2006.363,"end":2007.104,"text":"國庫增撥基金額21億3467萬8千元經濟特別收入基金"},{"start":2019.656,"end":2025.119,"text":"一 業務計劃請參閱預算書二 基金來源用途及餘處基金來源315億2,506萬2千元基金用途293億4,793萬7千元本期剩餘21億7,712萬5千元三 節繳公庫餘列數"},{"start":2039.105,"end":2046.589,"text":"核能發電後端營運基金一 業務計畫請參閱預算書二 基金來源用途及餘處基金來源423億8185萬7千元基金用途79億9064萬9千元本期剩餘343億9120萬8千元三 截角工庫無劣數"},{"start":2059.597,"end":2081.46,"text":"提案部分經濟作業基金第一案總收入增列五千萬元委員先奉等提案第二案業務收入租金及權利金收入向下土地租金收入瓜福產業園區開發管理基金增列一千萬元委員陳超明等提案第三案增列五百萬元委員邱瑩穎等提案第四案服務費用向下專業服務費"},{"start":2085.483,"end":2104.796,"text":"第五案 业务成本与费用 劳务成本 服务成本 服务费用向下专业服务费 冻结百分之二 委员呈停费等提案第六案 会费捐助补助分摊救助剂与交流活动费 冻结百分之十 委员先奉等提案依科技产业园区作业基金第七案"},{"start":2106.537,"end":2118.864,"text":"業務營業成本與費用勞務成本管理成本服務費用向下專業服務費凍結1000萬元委員女育齡等提案第八案固定資產建設改良擴充凍結10%委員楊瓊英等提案第九案凍結50萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案"},{"start":2122.526,"end":2141.724,"text":"第十案一般建築及设备计划分联性项目向下房屋及建筑冻结1%委员邱盈莹等提案二产业园区管理开发基金第十一案业务成本与费用向下劳务成本减列1%委员陈廷飞等提案第十二案冻结1亿元委员陈超明等提案"},{"start":2142.404,"end":2160.07,"text":"第十三案投融資業務成本凍結1億元委員呂玉玲等提案第十四案管理及總務費用凍結100萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案第十五案管理費用及總務費用向下服務費用減劣10%委員楊瓊英等提案十六案至31案為主決議請參閱"},{"start":2163.672,"end":2178.699,"text":"水資源作業基金提案第32案業務收入銷貨收入向下土石銷貨收入增列500萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案33案服務費用減列100萬元凍結200萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案34案業務成本與費用關乎溫泉事業發展基金凍結100萬元委員邱志偉等提案"},{"start":2186.922,"end":2196.11,"text":"35案 業務成本與費用向下銷貨成本 凍結1%委員陳廷飛等提案36案 凍結500萬元委員邱志偉等提案37案 給水銷貨成本 凍結20%委員張家俊等提案38案 凍結200萬元委員邱志偉等提案39案 給水銷貨成本服務費用向下水電費減列500萬元委員張祺凱等提案"},{"start":2212.164,"end":2231.638,"text":"40案修理保养及保护费 冻结5000万元委员陈超明等提案41案一般服务费 冻结2000万元委员陈超明等提案42案专业服务费 减列5000万元委员张其凯等提案43案媒体政策及业务宣导费 全数减列委员张其凯等提案"},{"start":2232.939,"end":2246.37,"text":"44案土石銷貨成本向下專業服務費減列200萬元文章齊凱等提案45案業務費用服務費用向下專業服務費減列200萬元文章齊凱等提案46案耗水費費用凍結20%文章家俊等提案47案凍結5%文邱瑩等提案"},{"start":2254.497,"end":2278.451,"text":"48案凍結500萬元委員邱志偉等提案49案耗水費費用服務費用向下專業服務費減列470萬元委員張其凱等提案50案媒體政策及業務宣導費全數減列委員張其凱等提案51案一般建築及設備計畫向下分年性項目凍結100萬元委員邱志偉等提案52案至61案為主決議請參閱"},{"start":2282.062,"end":2299.143,"text":"经济特别收入基金提案部分1.推广贸易基金62案贸易推广工作计划简列2000万元委员陈廷飞等提案63案冻结2亿元委员吕玉玲等提案64案冻结1318万2000元委员邱毅英等提案"},{"start":2299.884,"end":2309.472,"text":"65案凍結1000萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案66案凍結500萬元委員邱志偉等提案67案服務費用向下履運費減列10%委員楊瓊英等提案68案凍結400萬元委員邱志偉等提案69案服務費用向下專業服務費凍結1億元委員陳超明等提案"},{"start":2322.101,"end":2337.834,"text":"70案其他商业服务费向下委托办理智慧机械海外推广计划冻结20%委员张家俊等提案71委托办理战略性高科技货品管控作业计划冻结20%委员张家俊等提案"},{"start":2339.28,"end":2367.56,"text":"72 服务费用向下媒体政策及业务宣导费减列1800万元为先一奉等提案73 案冻结10%为杨琼英等提案74 案服务费用向下推展费冻结10%为先一奉等提案75 会费捐助补助分摊照顾救济与交流活动费向下捐助金融机构办理海外公共工程贷款逆袭补助计划全数冻结委员张家俊等提案"},{"start":2368.34,"end":2382.452,"text":"七十六案 凍結一千萬元委員邱志偉等提案七十七案 凍結一千萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案二 能源研究發展基金提案第七十八案 能源研究發展工作計畫凍結十億元委員張祺凱等提案"},{"start":2385.534,"end":2396.957,"text":"79案凍結2億元委員張祺凱等提案80案能源研究發展工作計畫向下服務費用凍結減劣10%委員楊瓊英等提案81案服務費用向下專業服務費凍結20%委員張家俊等提案82案凍結300萬元委員邱志偉等提案83案凍結150萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案"},{"start":2411.294,"end":2439.502,"text":"84案委托调查研究费科技计划能源效率管理与节能技术推广辅导向下服务业能源查核与能源管理辅导推广简列150万元委员陈廷飞等提案85案冻结500万元委员吕玉玲等提案86案冻结5%委员邱瑛颖等提案87案服务费用向下媒体政策及业务宣导费简列168万6千元委员谢一凤等提案"},{"start":2440.702,"end":2467.723,"text":"88案凍結50萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案89案材料及用品費凍結10%委員楊瓊英等提案90案匯費捐助補助分攤照護救濟與交流活動費捐助國內團體向下科技計畫凍結10%委員謝一鳳等提案91案科技計畫能源效率管理與節能技術推廣輔導向下廢熱與廢冷回收技術示範應用專案補助"},{"start":2470.245,"end":2478.112,"text":"凍結200萬元委員邱志偉等提案92案凍結100萬元委員邱盈盈等提案3石油基金提案第93案"},{"start":2479.318,"end":2488.707,"text":"政府除油石油開發及技術研究計劃凍結5%委員蔡宜宇等提案94案服務費用減劣10%委員楊瓊英等提案95案服務費用專業服務費向下委託調查研究費向下科技計劃凍結10%委員謝一鳳等提案"},{"start":2500.369,"end":2520.773,"text":"96案其他專業服務費非科技計劃向下住宅家電效率升級檢列1500萬元委員陳亭飛等提案97案政府儲油石油開發及技術研究計劃服務費用其他專業服務費非科技計劃向下加護屋頂設置太陽光電加速計劃檢列100萬元委員陳亭飛等提案"},{"start":2523.814,"end":2543.689,"text":"98案服务费用向下媒体政策及业务宣导费减列159万4千元委员谢一凤等提案99案冻结50万元委员赖瑞龙等提案100案会费捐助补助分摊照护救济与交流活动费向下捐助补助与讲助冻结2亿元委员陈超明等提案"},{"start":2544.909,"end":2564.942,"text":"101案凍結500萬元委員邱志偉等提案102案捐助國內團體科技計畫向下業界能源科技研究發展凍結10%委員先一鳳等提案103案定制型燃料電池發電系統示範推廣凍結5%委員邱盈盈等提案104案凍結200萬元委員邱志偉等提案105案"},{"start":2570.745,"end":2595.743,"text":"补协助政府机关购非科技计划向下电动机车产业环境加值补助冻结5%委员邱英等提案106案冻结1000万元委员邱志伟等提案107案一般行政管理计划冻结10%委员杨琼英等提案4再生能源发展基金提案108案再生能源推广计划简列一亿元委员张奇凯等提案"},{"start":2596.203,"end":2599.405,"text":"109案凍結1億元委員張家俊等提案110案凍結5%委員蔡奕宇等提案111案凍結5%委員蔡奕宇等提案"},{"start":2609.53,"end":2625.73,"text":"112案 再生能源推廣計畫 向下服務費用 凍結100萬元委員賴瑞龍等提案113案 匯費捐助補助分攤照護救濟與交流活動費 向下捐助補助與獎助 凍結3000萬元委員陳超明等提案"},{"start":2627.472,"end":2633.437,"text":"114 原住民地區參與再生能源設置示範獎勵 凍結5%委員邱瑩等提案115 太陽光電結合漁業環境友善維護計畫凍結700萬元委員邱志偉等提案116 凍結2%委員陳亭飛等提案"},{"start":2645.938,"end":2648.663,"text":"5.中小企業發展基金117案中小企業發展計畫凍結2億元委員張祺凱等題案118案凍結5%委員蔡奕宇等題案"},{"start":2658.152,"end":2667.976,"text":"119案服務費用向下專業服務費凍結20%委員張家俊等提案120案凍結1000萬元委員邱志偉等提案121案其他專業服務費凍結10%委員謝一鳳等提案122案背列新創躍升投融資平台計劃凍結1500萬元委員呂玉玲等提案123案城鄉在地供好能量提升計劃檢列300萬元委員陳亭飛等提案"},{"start":2685.424,"end":2699.998,"text":"一百二十四案租金償債利息及相關手續費凍結兩百萬元委員陳超明等提案一百二十五案一般行政管理計畫簡列百分之十委員楊瓊英等提案一百二十六案至一百四十九案為主決議請參閱"},{"start":2702.961,"end":2716.096,"text":"核能發電後端營運基金提案150案財產收入向下利息收入減列30億元委員張家俊等提案151案服務費用向下一般服務費減列10%凍結10%委員賴瑞榮等提案152案低放射性廢棄物處理及組成計劃"},{"start":2724.205,"end":2735.175,"text":"檢列500萬元凍結1000萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案153案服務費用檢列4500萬元委員張祺凱等提案154案凍結20%委員張家俊等提案155案服務費用向下推展費全數檢列委員張家俊等提案156案構建固定資產無形資產非理財目的之長期投資及營舍與設施工程支出"},{"start":2750.929,"end":2777.201,"text":"动结20%委员张家俊等提案150起案低放射性废弃物最终处置计划减列300万元服务费用向下专业服务费向下委托调查研究费向下玻璃熔融固化技术可行性评估研究计划全数动结委员赖瑞荣等提案150办案低放射性废弃物最终处置计划减列150万元委员陈廷飞等提案"},{"start":2778.585,"end":2793.062,"text":"159案冻结20%委员张家俊等提案160案冻结5%委员邱盈盈等提案161案冻结500万元委员邱志伟等提案162案服务费用减列10%委员杨琼英等提案"},{"start":2795.287,"end":2803.172,"text":"163案服務費用向下專業服務費減列2000萬元委員張其凱等提案164案用過核子燃料儲存計劃減列3000萬元凍結3000萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案165案減列100萬元委員陳廷飛等提案166案凍結20%委員張家俊等提案167案用過核子燃料儲存計劃"},{"start":2817.942,"end":2833.535,"text":"最终处置计划简列600万元冻结600万元委员赖瑞龙等提案168案冻结20%委员张家俊等提案169案冻结5%委员邱英英等提案170案冻结500万元委员邱志伟等提案"},{"start":2835.015,"end":2862.969,"text":"171案服务费用向下专业服务费冻结5000万元委员张其凯等提案172案盒子设施厨艺拆厂及其废弃物处理及最终处置计划向下服务费用冻结2亿元委员张其凯等提案173案服务费用向下专业服务费冻结20%委员张家俊等提案174案一般行政管理计划减裂5%冻结10%委员内瑞龙等提案"},{"start":2864.43,"end":2874.482,"text":"175案凍結100萬元委員邱志偉等提案176案一般行政管理計劃向下服務費用減列200萬元委員張啟改等提案177案為主決議請參閱"},{"start":2878.612,"end":2905.807,"text":"营业部分台湾唐业股份有限公司1.业务计划请参阅预算书2.营业收支业务总收入364亿4283万4千元营业总支出305亿9315万5千元税前净利58亿4967万9千元3.生产成本请参阅预算书4.转投资计划无列数5.重大支建设事业26亿3156万1千元"},{"start":2908.788,"end":2930.889,"text":"6.資金運用請參閱預算書7.補辦預算固定資產是建設改良擴充2429萬1千元提案部分第一案產銷營運計畫向下環境保護瓜湖污染防治支出凍結500萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案第二案勞工安全衛生檢列100萬元委員陳亭飛等提案第三案凍結1623萬"},{"start":2934.012,"end":2951.429,"text":"委员薛英凤等提案第四案冻结1623万元委员郑天才等提案第五案冻结1000万元委员陈超明等提案第六案冻结5%委员邱颖等提案第七案冻结300万元委员邱志伟等提案第八案失业永续发展计划"},{"start":2952.21,"end":2981.093,"text":"永續揭露項目投入資本支出凍結10%委員謝一鳳等提案第九案營業收入跨乎金融事業部增列500萬元委員邱瑩等提案第十案營業收入向下銷貨收入增列1億元委員張家俊等提案第十一案其他營業收入向下投資性不動產收入向下加油站租金收入增列100萬元委員陳超明等提案第十二案營業外收入"},{"start":2982.094,"end":3001.025,"text":"其他營業外收入向下處分投資性不動產利益增列2億元委員賴瑞龍等提案十三案 服務費用刮鬍管理費用凍結10%為楊瓊英等提案十四案 服務費用向下水電費減列1.5%為蕭鳳等提案十五案 服務費用向下專業服務費減列500萬元凍結500萬元委員賴瑞龍等提案"},{"start":3008.149,"end":3030.18,"text":"十六案營業成本凍結五百萬元委員邱志偉等提案十七案凍結五百萬元委員邱志偉等提案十八案凍結兩百萬元委員邱志偉等提案十九案營業成本及費用關乎蓄值加工廠凍結百分之四委員陳廷飛等提案二十案營業成本向下銷售成本凍結一千萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案"},{"start":3031.479,"end":3057.819,"text":"二十一案再生能源發電費用服務費用向下水電費凍結百分之二十委員張家俊等提案二十二案再生能源發電費用向下材料及用品費減列三千萬元委員張齊凱等提案二十三案其他營業成本投資性不動產費用向下服務費用減列百分之十委員楊瓊英等提案二十四案凍結三千萬元委員張齊凱等提案"},{"start":3058.899,"end":3080.485,"text":"25案租赁成本向下服务费用减列700万元委员张家俊等提案26案营业费用向下行销费用冻结1949万8千元委员谢玉凤等提案27案行销费用向下推展费冻结1000万元委员陈超明等提案28案管理费用冻结5000万元委员吕玉玲等提案"},{"start":3081.555,"end":3095.03,"text":"29案其他营业费用向下员工训练费用冻结1000万元委员吕玉玲等提案30案营业外费用向下其他营业外费用减列100万元冻结500万元委员赖瑞龙等提案"},{"start":3096.148,"end":3105.593,"text":"31案其他營業外費用向下停工損失 凍結20%委員張家俊等提案 32案凍結5%委員邱盈盈等提案33案凍結1000萬元委員陳超明等提案 34案凍結300萬元委員邱志偉等提案 35案製造費用"},{"start":3116.628,"end":3145.361,"text":"猪肉及其制品向下服务费用冻结三千万元委员张其凯等提案三十六案各产品制造费用服务费用向下占除包装代理及加工费减劣三千万元委员张家俊等提案三十七案固定资产建设改良扩充专案计划继续计划农业循环租场改建投资计划冻结百分之十委员谢一凤等提案三十八案冻结百分之十委员蔡义渝等提案"},{"start":3146.141,"end":3166.322,"text":"三十九案 凍結5%委員邱映穎等提案四十案 凍結1000萬元委員陳超明等提案四十一案 凍結500萬元委員邱志偉等提案四十二案 凍結500萬元委員賴瑞龍等提案四十三案 一般建築及設備計畫凍結10%委員蔡奕宇等提案四十四案至六十九案為主決議 請參閱"},{"start":3169.683,"end":3173.728,"text":"臺灣中油股份有限公司一 業務計畫請參閱預算書二 業務收支業務總收入1兆2,121億1,485萬4千元營業總支出1兆2,042億7,291萬9千元稅前淨利78億4,193萬5千元"},{"start":3190.007,"end":3193.389,"text":"3.生產成本請參閱預算書4.轉投資計畫增加投資16億7,552萬1千元5.重大之建設事業595億6,277萬8千元6.資金運用請參閱預算書7.補辦預算固定資產之建設改良擴充27億元"},{"start":3211.417,"end":3237.108,"text":"提案部分第一案產銷營運計畫公安環保及衛生向下環境保護檢列300萬元委員陳亭飛等提案第二案凍結20%委員張家俊等提案第三案凍結8億4千萬元委員鄭天才等提案第四案凍結5%委員邱瑩等提案第五案凍結5%委員陳超明等提案第六案凍結1億4千萬元委員謝一鳳等提案"},{"start":3240.1,"end":3263.839,"text":"第七案 凍結一千萬元委員邱志偉等提案第八案 凍結五百萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案第九案 工業安全檢列五百萬元委員陳廷飛等提案第十案 凍結百分之二十委員張家俊等提案第十一案 凍結百分之十委員蔡易宇等提案第十二案 凍結三億元委員鄭天才等提案第十三案 凍結百分之五委員陳超明等提案"},{"start":3264.58,"end":3279.944,"text":"第十四案 凍結3%委員賴瑞榮等提案第十五案 凍結6000萬元委員謝一鳳等提案第十六案 凍結1%委員邱映穎等提案第十七案 凍結500萬元委員邱志偉等提案第十八案 研究發展 凍結10%委員謝一鳳等提案"},{"start":3283.308,"end":3304.677,"text":"第19案 凍結5億2千萬元委員鄭天才等提案第20案 凍結3%委員賴瑞榮等提案第21案 凍結1千萬元委員邱志偉等提案第22案 失業永續發展計畫 淨零轉型關鍵戰略行動計畫向下探捕捉利用及封存 凍結1千萬元委員陳超敏等提案"},{"start":3305.277,"end":3322.161,"text":"第23案營業收入增列1000萬元委員邱瑩等提案第24案撤案第25案服務費用向下水電費減列1.5%委員蕭一鳳等提案第26案專業服務費減列1000萬元凍結1000萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案第27案媒體政策及業務宣導費減列1000萬元委員張家俊等提案第28案凍結100萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案"},{"start":3333.584,"end":3346.939,"text":"19案租金与利息向下利息冻结10%委员谢一凤等提案30案营业成本劳务成本油气输出费用向下服务费用向下专业服务费冻结3亿元委员张奇凯等提案"},{"start":3348.366,"end":3372.24,"text":"三十一案 油汽輸出費用稅捐與歸費向下歸費凍結一千萬元五元呂玉玲等提案三十二案 探勘費用減列兩億元凍結一千萬元五元賴瑞龍等提案三十三案 減列兩千萬元五元陳亭輝等提案三十四案 凍結七億七千萬元五元鄭天才等提案三十五案 凍結百分之五五元邱瑩等提案"},{"start":3373.36,"end":3383.825,"text":"36案 凍結1億3千萬元委員謝一鳳等提案37案 凍結1千萬元委員邱志偉等提案38案 探勘費用向下服務費用減劣10%委員楊瓊英等提案39案 服務費用向下專業服務費減劣5億元 凍結3億元委員張祺凱等提案40案 凍結5億元委員呂玉玲等提案41案 專業服務費向下委託檢驗試驗費"},{"start":3402.468,"end":3405.112,"text":"凍結1億元委員陳超明等提案 42案委託檢驗試驗費向下國安探勘部分"},{"start":3410.296,"end":3432.708,"text":"凍結20%委員張家俊等提案43案委託檢驗試驗費向下海域探勘部分凍結30%委員張家俊等提案44案其他營業成本向下雜項營業成本向下服務費用凍結1000萬元委員張祺凱等提案45案營業費用向下行銷費用服務費用向下公關慰勞費"},{"start":3433.888,"end":3452.694,"text":"动结300万元委员吕玉玲等提案46案管理费用向下服务费用动结10%委员杨琼英等提案47案服务费用向下专业服务费动结3000万元委员张奇凯等提案48案其他营业费用向下研究发展费用动结3亿元委员吕玉玲等提案"},{"start":3454.536,"end":3469.565,"text":"49案研究发展费用向下服务费用减列10%委员杨求英等提案50案服务费用向下专业服务费减列4亿元委员张其凯等提案51案专业服务费向下技术合作费及权利金"},{"start":3470.305,"end":3487.836,"text":"冻结20%委员张家俊等提案52案专业服务费向下委托调查研究费冻结20%委员张家俊等提案53案员工训练费用向下服务费用向下专业服务费冻结2000万元委员张其凯等提案54案营业外费用"},{"start":3488.837,"end":3516.905,"text":"财务成本向下利息费用冻结10%委员张家俊等提案55案其他营业外费用杂项费用服务费用向下修理保养与保护费冻结1亿元委员吕玉玲等提案56案签建管线经费减列1000万元委员赖瑞龙等提案57案桃园观音藻礁生态富裕及生态补偿冻结3000万元委员吕玉玲等提案58案生态保育基金"},{"start":3517.506,"end":3532.263,"text":"冻结1亿元委员吕玉玲等提案59案冻结1亿元委员吕玉玲等提案60案直接材料人工向下原料向下耗用进口原油成本冻结10亿元委员陈超明等提案"},{"start":3533.401,"end":3561.62,"text":"61案中东地区天然气投资计划向下卡达能源异化气异化天然气公司冻结1亿元委员陈超明等提案62案冻结3000万元委员吕玉玲等提案63案冻结1000万元委员邱志伟等提案64案冻结500万元委员赖瑞龙等提案65案固定资产建设改良扩充减列50亿元委员赖瑞龙等提案66案冻结30%委员张家俊等提案"},{"start":3562.813,"end":3570.132,"text":"67案专案计划冻结42亿4千万元委员郑天才等提案68案冻结5%委员陈超明等提案"},{"start":3570.7,"end":3590.687,"text":"六十九案凍結五百萬元委員邱志偉等提案七十案繼續計畫向下高雄港洲際貨櫃二期大林石化油品儲運中心投資計畫凍結一千萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案七十一案天然氣事業部洲際液化天然氣接受站投資計畫凍結四億元委員張祺凱等提案"},{"start":3594.454,"end":3612.135,"text":"七十二案 凍結一千萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案七十三案 天然氣事業部通宵制大潭第二條海底輸氣管線投資計畫全數凍結委員呂玉玲等提案七十四案 凍結一千萬元委員呂玉玲等提案七十五案 凍結一千萬元委員陳超明等提案"},{"start":3613.136,"end":3621.222,"text":"76案凍結5%委員邱穎等提案77案一般建築及設備計畫凍結3億元委員賴瑞榮等提案78案業務用機械設備、油品行銷事業部向下電動汽車充電裝建制凍結20%委員張家俊等提案79至115案為主決議請參閱宣讀完畢"},{"start":3644.38,"end":3672.739,"text":"好 我們先介紹在場的行政首長我們經濟部的郭志輝部長還有我們國貿署的姜文若署長能源署的游政委署長中小及新創企業署的李冠志署長水利署的賴建信署長產業園區管理局楊伯根局長"},{"start":3674.893,"end":3703.831,"text":"台灣電力股份有限公司徐永輝副總經理台灣糖業股份有限公司吳明昌董事長董事長跟總經理區域委員辦公室報告馬上回來請通知一下我們先介紹在場的委員邱義營委員台灣中油股份有限公司方振仁董事長"},{"start":3707.629,"end":3718.799,"text":"張明總經理行政院主計總處 基金預算處 王沛山科長好 我們再等一位委員"},{"start":3776.067,"end":3805.638,"text":"好 再介紹一下在場委員 賴瑞隆委員 陳庭菲委員我們現在來進行協商 我們先協商非營業基金的部分在業務總收入第一案請先說明"},{"start":3809.874,"end":3832.274,"text":"業務總收入請郭部長主席委員長我們現在開始來報告我們第一項業務總收入要增加"},{"start":3837.782,"end":3856.503,"text":"五千萬 是 這個是我們謝義鳳協委員所提到的那這部分我們有跟委員報告 委員簽名同意 我們是修改成五百萬好 已經簽名了 委員簽名的部分要送過來 馬上送過去好 沒意見 那增列五百萬 沒意見"},{"start":3858.379,"end":3867.58,"text":"照列增加五百萬就增加五百萬然後五千萬現在需要改成五百萬就是第一案總收入"},{"start":3868.669,"end":3896.412,"text":"照原預算增加500萬好接下來第二案到第三案請說明第二案是陳濤明委員他說要增加增加經費那我們也跟委員辦公室報告過委員也同意簽名改成主決議修改文字為提升設置產業用地效益促進土地活化那一塊文字的部分已經我們 潮同意"},{"start":3898.653,"end":3908.157,"text":"第二案你說改組決議嘛組決議簽名的送過來第三案第三案是邱委員這邊所提到的那希望能夠"},{"start":3910.024,"end":3927.561,"text":"增加那個500萬那這一部分我們有跟委員辦公室送到資料那我們是想建議委員能不能修改成文字就是說把那個增加的部分刪掉然後我們來提那個希望我們經濟部來積極來辦理好 請秋瑩委員"},{"start":3933.582,"end":3956.142,"text":"謝謝局長 這個當然你們有來辦公室說明但是我還是想要聽一下 如果說我不爭略我是可以我是可以贊與同意但是就說你們在積極的作為上面現在有沒有一些想法跟規劃可不可以再詳細說明一下像委員報告 就是因為產狀條例有修正條文閒置的土地我們陸陸續續都在公告"},{"start":3958.424,"end":3974.759,"text":"閒置的土地的部分公告完以後我們給他兩年來改善趕快來興建那兩年如果沒有完成的話我們會按照條例的規定予以罰還那罰還在一年之後我們會如果他還沒有改善完畢的話我們會強制辦理拍賣"},{"start":3977.481,"end":3995.026,"text":"那這一塊目前我們已經之前我們有盤過總共有接近300公頃的閒置土地目前我們只剩下大概多少公頃很少了只剩下這個大概十幾二十公頃的土地目前正在積極處理當中"},{"start":3998.669,"end":4026.971,"text":"好 請邱志委員邱志委員我想請教一下那個局長是那個高雄有多少是經濟部開發的這個工業區產業園區除北高雄之外北高雄你收取的租金現在是多少詳細數字是不是我再查一下資料再跟委員報告不用查我告訴你啦"},{"start":4029.286,"end":4043.205,"text":"一坪多少錢一坪多少錢你比照核發核發是高雄市開的核發是高雄市開發的對啦我知道你們收費是比較核發的那你要租金收入多少錢"},{"start":4044.446,"end":4065.922,"text":"你不知道你的同仁跟委員報告我們的原管局所開發的園區目前租金的收取是按照那個公告地價然後乘上百分比啦所以每個地區的公告地價不一樣的話那你為什麼要說比照合法呢我沒有說比照合法我意思說你們租金收入是比照合法啦那你們收入多少錢"},{"start":4068.792,"end":4092.629,"text":"查一下我們現在馬上查一下你接下來還有這個陸族產業園區對不對陸族產業園區我們目前正在努力在跟地主啦或者跟市政府在協調我也希望說除了北高雄之外已經目前我下禮拜會排考察去看北高雄產業園區的這個開發情形跟產商進度的狀況那另外除了"},{"start":4097.352,"end":4111.222,"text":"北高雄之後還有白埔嘛白埔現在市政府希望說做橋科第二期 這個經濟部部長大概了解那我也樂觀其成那原先的白埔沒有那必須要補一塊給傳統產業作為這個產業園區所以我們就選擇我們經過多次的討論選擇陸竹比那個高科"},{"start":4121.294,"end":4139.566,"text":"高科技科、本州電管,差不多有40多公頃這個區位剛剛好,在省道旁邊,然後又離高科教導近,又離未來要開的岡山第二教導又近"},{"start":4140.246,"end":4161.638,"text":"所以大家都引頸期盼希望能夠快速用你們的效率用北高雄財源區的模式趕快讓它來設立完成所以我希望這個部分也希望楊局長能夠盡力全力來推動那我之所以問這個租金"},{"start":4162.879,"end":4191.776,"text":"租金啊 這個有些廠商說認為他們太貴 因為有時候他們租要租三千坪 一千 兩千坪你一坪租多少錢 是不是有可能說能夠著降 好像我記得是知道一坪是一千五啊好像是那個數字啦千塊啦齁 你們同仁應該也了解這個這牧師討論這個你們租金收入啊那你到底租多少錢 你應該很清楚才對啊"},{"start":4192.833,"end":4204.689,"text":"那每一個你們開發產業員去收費的標準都是按照土地公告限值然後再去算嗎是同仁"},{"start":4206.513,"end":4231.818,"text":"沒有啦 那個跟委員報告您提到陸竹那一塊目前是因為還沒有變更所以變更還好啦那個大概有兩三年之後啦對 變更完以後它有加開發成本所以公告地價會上漲開始慢慢進駐了那這個廠商也都很滿意那唯一有一點點的這個問題就是說那個租金能不能不要那麼高特別他們進駐的都是這個傳統產業你說金屬扣件"},{"start":4235.823,"end":4240.209,"text":"而且他們屬於非汙染的金屬擴建所以他們這個在這兩三年這個傳統產業擴建面臨到這個有史以來最嚴重的這個經濟環境所以如果"},{"start":4250.629,"end":4270.794,"text":"你一次又把租金還是一樣那麼高是不是有一個彈性的機制我想問他們有沒有一個彈性的機制租金如果低價高的時候你就高一點然後低價低的時候就低一點我的意思是這樣子不要說在他們經營困難的時候你租金還說那麼高因為那是設定立場權的對不對"},{"start":4273.512,"end":4296.002,"text":"向委員報告就是說陸竹那一塊那剛剛部長也特別指示我們可以比照就之前我們開園區的提006688所以初期的部分對廠商的租金壓力會比較少一點因為前兩年他正在興建當中那後面在營運期那北高雄能不能再試用有有有北高雄已經都在試用了這樣很好對對對好謝謝好請邱議員委員你不是還在"},{"start":4308.019,"end":4309.86,"text":"第二案改成主決議 第三案就增列500萬"},{"start":4330.165,"end":4356.346,"text":"那接下來是第四案請說明第四案也是那個謝一鳳委員所提到的那希望就是我們要來凍結我們百分之十那我們有跟委員幫忙委員溝通過那這一部分的委員已經簽名了請謝一鳳委員到我的五百萬"},{"start":4362.234,"end":4388.423,"text":"謝委員希望是第四案我知道剛才我要講一下總收入的部分因為我也是體恤就是說工業區裡面所有人的就是所有的廠商要配合政府做這些節能減碳還有相關的目標他們都要做一些改善的設施所以當然我們也不要求說你們的收入"},{"start":4388.863,"end":4405.953,"text":"要一直漲他們的租金因為畢竟他們也要配合國家的這個政策那所以要做非常多的就是花費非常多更多的成本在做這些事情那所以我們也不予以這樣子那對於就是說第四案這個部分"},{"start":4406.633,"end":4424.262,"text":"那我們也覺得說只要就是說產業園區對於這個廠商那對於他們未來要再節能或者是用水上面有一些的那個什麼就是說他們要節約用水然後你們會給他家宇服務"},{"start":4425.323,"end":4438.796,"text":"那你們如果能夠對於廠商來做這樣子相關的規劃我們也不會非常支持因為畢竟這些廠商的那個這些廠商的那個我們可以酌量是不是動少一點"},{"start":4440.778,"end":4464.381,"text":"向委員報告目前我們局裡面已經在去年跟今年我們都成立計劃然後組織團隊然後到廠商進場去做輔導那輔導的部分我們會從一般性的輔導跟深入輔導的部分來著手那目前我們譬如說我們以那個節能減碳的部分節煙用電的部分"},{"start":4464.921,"end":4481.114,"text":"那今年度我們編列輔導的家數可以高達大概790家以上那以往啊去年我們只辦了大概200家左右所以今年為了要讓廠商能夠節用電的部分跟節水的部分我們有增加經費來做輔導"},{"start":4482.574,"end":4505.702,"text":"那第二個就是有關於委員所提到的就是說廠商的負擔的部分那如果說在我們輔導能量不足的部分那部裡面還有產發署產業發展署中小企業創新署他們對於業界都有一些補助的申請那我們也會來嫁接這些資源的引進那所以對廠商的輔導的部分我們會全力來辦理"},{"start":4507.793,"end":4533.386,"text":"那我們希望說你們可以協助尤其是我們彰化地區的這些人區那其實那廠家在裡面因為你也知道說最近電價已經漲了兩波那還有一些就是當然我們很擔心未來用水費用等等那所以希望說大家就是你們可以協助廠商對於節水節電還有這些設施能夠盡力去輔導好不好"},{"start":4534.026,"end":4557.416,"text":"好是謝謝委員那是不是能夠建議免凍結然後我們提書面報告凍小一點啦免凍結對不對好是來請謝委員建議五百五百好是好謝委員好第四案凍結五百萬書面報告接下來第五案請說明"},{"start":4558.854,"end":4588.068,"text":"第五案是陳委員所提到就是有關於我們污水廠營運的部分有關於污水廠的部分因為最近我們在推薦那個節水的部分所以廠商的排水的部分確實是有減少那第二個就是我們也對於廠商剛剛有提到就是說我們會派輔導團隊進廠去幫廠商做節水的輔導那節水的部分分製程的節水跟後面排放出來的節水回水"},{"start":4588.628,"end":4614.426,"text":"回收再利用的部分我們都有在做輔導那所以對污水廠來講的話是一個比較嚴重的一個考驗為什麼呢前端廠商的排水減少我們要提升我們污水廠的營運量的部分這一部分我們會來想辦法來增加它的經營那所以我們也想說是不是能夠有一些區外的廢水能夠引進因為污水廠的capacity處理量夠"},{"start":4615.106,"end":4636.522,"text":"那是不是能夠引進外水這邊來增加收入我們會從幾方面來幫忙來處理好 請陳丁飛委員謝謝主席其實污水處理很重要尤其在我們產區 產業園區可是為什麼我們整個績效並沒有我們預期就像你講的 我們量是夠的"},{"start":4637.502,"end":4659.862,"text":"量是夠是超於現在處理的所以才會有這樣的所謂沒有到達目標可是你沒有到達目標你委外由他們去處理你錢也要給他嗎跟委員報告委外的部分我們是不給錢的就廠商是支付盈虧可是你的那你這個左邊列的這個費用呢"},{"start":4660.778,"end":4689.577,"text":"這一部分你代操作費啊我們自己的這是你們我們自己的我知道我是說你這個代操作費那你又有場你又有他們來是我們自己跟委員報告就是說污水廠現在有分兩類一類是我們自己自營操作的那一部分是委外那委外的部分你這個是委託代操作費用對啊我沒有看錯啊"},{"start":4690.579,"end":4694.959,"text":"你這是三座污水處理廠委託帶操作費用"},{"start":4696.342,"end":4722.054,"text":"這一部分跟委員報告這個是我們科技產業園區以前加工出口區科技產業園區我們這一部分是委外操作那目前它的收費的部分我們都達到它的預定值那為什麼會達到預定值因為當初我們在跟廠商簽約的時候是以它申請量來收費不是排放量所以我們收的都比它的排放量的水量的還要多"},{"start":4722.864,"end":4745.083,"text":"可是那為什麼在整個三座污水處理廠你的營運時機還是有偏低沒有達到我們預期的效果是那第二個要跟委員報告就是屏東污水廠就我們有幾個包括中港潭子這一些都它的操作量都夠目前唯一比較操作營運績效不好的話是屏東"},{"start":4746.224,"end":4768.244,"text":"科技產業園區那屏東科技產業園區目前的架動力大概只有4成就是區內廠商排放出來的水它本來就不夠所以它一般來講我們的處理費的部分跟成本跟收益的話要架動力要達到6成以上這個才能夠收支平衡那目前它廠商排出來的水大概只有3成多到4成"},{"start":4769.096,"end":4796.078,"text":"所以只有那個操作率有一點比較低一點那第二個跟委員報告這個是我們試作污水廠裡面所有的委外操作費用那另外我們還有一塊收入的部分因為沒有把它併在一起可能委員稍微有一點誤會那是不是會後我們再提供比如說攬子我收多少支付多少這個數字再給委員那那個主席我這個部分齁我先我凍結這個"},{"start":4798.42,"end":4813.009,"text":"兩百萬然後等他們書面報告完把這個資料整個都給了我們委員會之後我們就可動之好第五案凍結兩百萬書面報告第二案請說明"},{"start":4814.39,"end":4840.586,"text":"第六案是謝委員這邊所提到的就是有關於我們捐補助的部分那捐補助的部分目前比較大宗的是屬於我們電價回饋金的部分那電價回饋金的部分在補助彰化跟雲林離島我們目前有比較大的回饋金的部分是這兩項那是不是就這一部分能夠我們提出書面報告跟委員報告這邊是能夠"},{"start":4842.887,"end":4862.964,"text":"能夠來不要凍結請信一芬委員我是說除了就是說這個捐補助的部分那我們還是提到未來彰化的因為畢竟還有可能就是我們還有新的園區那對於這些再生水的使用"},{"start":4863.624,"end":4881.929,"text":"那其實在其他的地區都已經就是非常的普遍那怎麼樣子協助彰化這一邊能夠在再生水廠來供就是說工業區的使用等等的那我也希望說這個那個懺悔所這邊可以做一個像"},{"start":4885.527,"end":4905.248,"text":"請你們做一個相關的這個園區管理署說一個相關的規劃因為畢竟就是說未來這個用水的問題還有產業缺水的問題都是一個非常嚴峻的一個事情那是不是要盡快的提出來相關再生水場的使用的規劃這樣子"},{"start":4907.312,"end":4922.254,"text":"跟委員報告第一個就是有關於目前這個科目目前我們有回饋金的是只有彰化跟雲林地區因為那個是我們設置大面積的平面型的太陽能板那這部分回饋的部分我們在捐補助的部分我們會給"},{"start":4924.576,"end":4944.264,"text":"縣政府然後再轉播給那個當地的這一塊那第二個就是說委員這邊所提到的再生水的部分目前有關用水的部分我們會積極來規劃使用再生水那目前在水利署也部裡面也特別指示園區開發的部分再生水的比例都有定下來"},{"start":4944.904,"end":4963.816,"text":"那時候我們也在進入在廠商輔導就是能夠盡量使用再生水那是不是有關全面性的再生水的部分的使用的部分是我們會後提報告給委員好那就免於凍結好第六案送書面報告免凍結好第七案請說明"},{"start":4964.898,"end":4975.098,"text":"那第七範圍是委員這邊所提到的就是有關於一樣是污水廠營運的部分那剛剛就是有報告過那是不是能夠比照上一案來辦理"},{"start":4977.439,"end":4995.63,"text":"本席的提案是第七案是針對我們潭子這個科學園區還有台中港的科學園區跟屏東科學園區他們的污水處理廠使用力不到六成那尤其是潭子科學園區還不到三成所以我們希望你對這三座污水處理整個營運的方針作為檢討跟調整來"},{"start":4998.536,"end":5020.686,"text":"來改善這個整個營運的績效 是好不好那這個部分我先凍結一千萬 順便報告好 謝謝委員接下來是第八案到第九案 請說明第八案是有關於楊卓英委員所提到的就是我們園區的土地使用效率的部分那目前就是說因為老園區的部分"},{"start":5021.246,"end":5049.279,"text":"原先的建築的使用容積率都比較低一點那目前局裡面也跟部裡面有呈報一個就是有關於園區改更新改善計畫那目前我們會來把低容積的尤其沒使用的這些廠房能夠盡量協助廠商來拆除重建那予以高容積的部分那這一部分也要需要有一些經費那目前我們科技產業園區的部分這一塊已經先報行政院了"},{"start":5049.699,"end":5076.107,"text":"那產業園區的部分我們最近也跟部長報告過那我們會再循程序來報行政院來辦理是不是這一塊能夠建議我們也跟委員辦公室也報告過那委員辦公室的主任也說他支持啦要問委員不是委員辦公室主任那因為委員還沒碰到面現在請任務委員"},{"start":5077.366,"end":5104.427,"text":"好我的是第9案因為高覽二期的第一棟大樓這個相當重要然後他對於不管是矽谷的對接5G或者是AIC這塊都很重要那我是要求可能這個經濟部要加速在招商跟對於有意願的廠商的積極的投入讓他能夠盡快的新建完成後加快來做一些營運那我是要求凍結50萬要求提出順便報告再行解凍"},{"start":5106.254,"end":5113.298,"text":"好 第8案改組決議等會請委員簽名後送上來然後第9案凍結50萬書面報告接下來第10案請說明"},{"start":5118.103,"end":5144.75,"text":"第十案是邱委員這邊所提到的就是有關於我們工程的進展的部分那這邊的委員是提到就要凍結一趴那這一部分就是有關於我們也是一樣對於廠房的新建的部分就剛有提到就是說我們正在推更新的部分那尤其在南子已經推第一塊那接著會從前鎮這邊再來執行接下來第三波的話就會到壇子"},{"start":5145.59,"end":5162.692,"text":"那我們會陸續的從園區這邊來推動更新計畫那是不是能夠委員能夠建議呢免凍結然後我們提書面報告請求議員委員好那我們就免凍結然後改成主決議好不好好謝謝謝謝委員好第十案改成主決議"},{"start":5165.748,"end":5192.08,"text":"接下來我們處理業務總支出第11案跟12案請說明那11案是陳廷輝委員這邊所提到的就是有關於我們營運中心的績效還有收支結構的部分那也跟委員報告就是因為我們服務中心設在產業園區裡面一般來處理的部分都是有關於公共設施包括道路 公園 路燈等等的修復"},{"start":5193.62,"end":5211.935,"text":"這一塊原先在之前很早以前我們有訂個費率那費率訂定完以後經過多年來我們要去調整那廠商就覺得負擔可能會增加所以我們一直沒有把這個費率結構去做調整那是不是能夠我們為了解決"},{"start":5212.816,"end":5235.397,"text":"服務中心營運上的困難的部分那我們希望就是說我們能開拓其他的財源來預租那目前我們最大的財源就是我們在處理我們的006688土地由租轉購的部分然後來增加基金的收入那這一塊的部分可以來減輕我們服務中心的長期的負擔"},{"start":5236.118,"end":5245.109,"text":"那是不是就是說其他的部分我們對新延區的部分也跟委員報告原來我們是每平方公尺是10塊錢那現在我們新延區已調到18塊就是我把那個"},{"start":5251.897,"end":5272.539,"text":"公共設施維護費的部分有把它調高我們有調整這個結構那會從新園區這邊陸陸續續來調整那如果新園區調整完以後慢慢回頭會來再檢討我們老園區那老園區的部分目前我們有60個產業園區可能要調整的話我們會慢慢的再跟廠商這邊來溝通"},{"start":5274.056,"end":5302.048,"text":"好 請陳地非委員謝謝主席其實我們不是要讓你去調整這個價格啦我們為什麼會提這個就是說在我們整個服務中心的一個經營是應該要更所謂的多樣化然後呢對於廠商的一個互動要更直接其實今天如果我們在地方上的一個量能更大的話那彼此的回饋其實廠商不會計較這些錢"},{"start":5303.909,"end":5317.486,"text":"但是你如果讓他覺得說服務中心就只是一個服務中心並沒有給他很重要的一個這個彼此的一個互動那我相信這個即使我們再加了多少錢大家還是會覺得說"},{"start":5319.281,"end":5342.326,"text":"我根本使用率不高或是反而是覺得我們政府在壓榨所以我會提這個是說我們到底在服務中心而且過去我們還沒有整個組織在做調整的時候我們都是工業局那工業局跟大家的一個直接感沒有那麼重而且現在是北中南"},{"start":5343.186,"end":5356.603,"text":"北中南多了台南台南然後高雄所以我們要怎麼樣我們分屬跟地方有更好的一個直接接觸去擴展你在服務中心的量能"},{"start":5358.12,"end":5376.496,"text":"重點是在這個不是要叫你去調說30元變成17元、38元 不是是說我們服務中心在整個我們所謂產業園區服務中心我們到底要怎麼有價值感呢我們設一個服務中心 它在做什麼"},{"start":5379.15,"end":5396.262,"text":"是不是有發揮到它實質服務我們所有廠商的一個重點如果有時我們雞開一隻都沒有意見但是如果沒有 你就剩下雞 雞太多 雞太多 他都會覺得沒有那一個對應關係"},{"start":5398.563,"end":5413.995,"text":"我意思是這樣所以我覺得說你把我們未來服務中心我們到底要怎麼去經營怎麼去做一些跟廠商之間的彼此互動我要的是這個東捷兩百萬"},{"start":5418.098,"end":5432.472,"text":"提這個所謂的我們服務中心的一個轉型或是服務中心的一個對接怎麼去處理然後各辦公室我們再解凍給委員會再解凍謝謝請新一份委員"},{"start":5435.256,"end":5450.966,"text":"我在這裡也是要拜託本委員會的委員也是未來新的園區管理署的署長就是說這個園區很多像我們彰化非常多的道路什麼什麼的"},{"start":5451.406,"end":5470.116,"text":"都沒有沒有修或者是整個都是需要你們來協助那這個部分是不是大家就是用凍結的方式不要用剪裂的方式因為畢竟我們那些我們長化的園區都非常比較舊那需要修復的然後希望就是說園區這邊"},{"start":5472.077,"end":5500.413,"text":"也是有盡力的去協助啦好不好好 請邱志偉委員請教一下袁局長那個北高雄產業園區現在設立有沒有成立服務中心委員是說北高雄產業園區啊現在準備要已經招商完成了嘛都已經準備要進駐在蓋廠房了未來公共設施這些管理對進駐園區的廠商的服務有沒有要設立服務中心"},{"start":5501.295,"end":5517.712,"text":"像委員報告就是說北高雄園區的部分目前我們已經在籌設我們的服務中心第二個就是服務大樓的部分也準備在蓋了要新建了那第三個就是說剛剛委員都有提到就是說服務中心的功能的部分"},{"start":5518.473,"end":5545.18,"text":"那其實部長也幾次來指示我們雲管局就是說服務中心以後不要只有做那些修馬路修路燈所以我們服務大樓日後的服務大樓的功能的部分會擴充它的多樣性使用包括就是有生活機能或是公托的這一塊的引路那再來就是我們也希望服務大樓蓋起來能夠有人陪的訓練場所的進駐"},{"start":5548.241,"end":5574.338,"text":"市長跟部長 這個都是微中小型企業什麼叫微中小型企業 它的定義資本的一億 員工的數200人所以進駐的這些廠商 基本上是微中小型企業所以這部分 他們有任何 比方說你現在傳統製造業傳統製造業又分很多種 扣件 螺絲 鋼鐵 塑化等等"},{"start":5575.731,"end":5592.239,"text":"那他們面對這個經營環境的改變衝擊他們的這個需求跟很多都不一樣說話有說話的問題 擴建有擴建的問題所以當然提出很多解方 我昨天也跟這個政府院長也討論過"},{"start":5595.683,"end":5601.431,"text":"這個不是一個綜合感冒藥你要針對不同的產業項目去更深入了解他們這個產業需要是什麼"},{"start":5609.523,"end":5634.863,"text":"扣件啦 塑化啦 或者你這個服務業也是一樣如此傳統服務業就是除了金融之外 傳統服務業這個每一個傳統服務業面臨的問題各有不同所以你們應該 這個服務中心啊還要應該跟這個住在園區的所有廠商去充分了解他們需要政府哪些的協助"},{"start":5635.943,"end":5657.902,"text":"而不是說你丟一個整個綜合感冒藥包山包海什麼需要人就人需要錢就錢需要貸款就貸款或者需要技術轉型或者需要進行談判這個每一個產業都面臨著不同的問題我希望你們能夠精準的醫療精準的對每一個產業所以你們要跟這個產業工會比如說塑膠產業工會石化產業工會"},{"start":5662.185,"end":5681.663,"text":"去進體做多座談了解所以服務中心這主要很重要他應該作為你的耳目不是耳目就是說你的深入基層的深入基層去了解產業需求的重要的耳目講耳目也沒有錯"},{"start":5683.318,"end":5698.587,"text":"去探查民意所以不是說你這個一個服務中心只是單純做行政協調而已它要有政策的功能那把產商的問題可以透過服務中心來反映給局長反映給部長以上"},{"start":5699.962,"end":5714.961,"text":"請陳地非委員謝謝主席剛剛就是我們服務中心現在大概就是說比較重視這所謂的一個公共服務然後就是說修道路啊然後這些比較公共直接可是這也很重要"},{"start":5716.092,"end":5737.42,"text":"那重點是你在做這些之前我想以我們台南產業園區來看像上次我剛剛座談現在地方上還有很多公共的需求我們並沒有到位所以這個就是說我們服務中心要怎麼跟他們做一個比較好對接做一些他們真正能夠感受到我們"},{"start":5738.16,"end":5764.425,"text":"服務中心對他們的服務我說真的他們那個園區根本不是政府能夠去碰觸到地方政府所以都這樣一天一天然後這個無論是地啊或是在整個監視系統等等像上次他們就有提到這個問題所以我覺得說我們服務中心應該給他們更多的量能這才是重要的謝謝好請陳昌明委員"},{"start":5770.547,"end":5777.077,"text":"首先我感謝我們產業延期的楊局長在111年、112年你到苗栗會刊了三次到兩次期間"},{"start":5785.83,"end":5808.355,"text":"現在我們苗栗縣那個桃竹苗大溪谷計畫已經行政院核定了剛好你請的地方中了兩個地方我特別感謝你聽說你要退休了退休的話常常到苗栗來我們會好好招待你尤其是以那個當祭祀好不好"},{"start":5809.415,"end":5822.607,"text":"我現在要跟你請教一個問題關於你這個勞務成本的收入是18億5271萬你的成本38億7965萬這麼多你以後20月底以你這樣的專財這個地方怎麼會虧損那麼多啊你給我們報告好了解一下好不好你的勞務收入這一邊"},{"start":5837.067,"end":5855.105,"text":"業務收入裡面的勞務收入的差價錢,勞務成本怎麼提高那麼多,讓我了解一下,因為未來我們的產業延期如果有這樣的缺點,我們就要把它改進了。你這差不多20頁,了解一下。"},{"start":5859.228,"end":5873.053,"text":"向委員報告第一個就是說服務中心以往都只對公共設施做一些管理維護從主改之後在部長的指示下我們對服務中心的能量都有擴充了"},{"start":5873.593,"end":5901.63,"text":"那第二個就是說我所謂的擴充的部分就是剛剛委員所提到的就是說我們要深入廠商對廠商的需求的部分那廠商的需求的部分服務中心的同仁不一定是很了解所以現在局裡面都推動我們有幾個計畫包括就是節能減碳的輔導計畫包括碳盤查的計畫還有一個最重要一個就是一校一園區的我們引進大學的資源來幫我們園區的廠商來做初步的診斷"},{"start":5903.011,"end":5923.596,"text":"所以剛剛也跟陳委員報告就是為什麼我們那個成本會增加就是我們的輔導計畫增加了輔導計畫增加才能夠了解廠商的需求予以廠商更適切的需求的服務那包括就是剛剛邱委員所提到的扣件的金屬的我們就找星空中心或是這些專業團體進來做輔導"},{"start":5926.414,"end":5952.19,"text":"那第二個就是說剛陳委員有提到就是說那個成本支出增加那我們以往以往園區的收入的部分我們有一塊是園區開發出售土地有一些超成本的部分然後來預助基金那我們從那一塊來減輕我們剛講的就是說有一些成本支付比較跟收入有差距的部分"},{"start":5952.89,"end":5976.847,"text":"那現在如果我們改成那個出租為主的時候那所以我們就要另闢財源就是陳委員也提示了就是說我回去會跟我們的團隊再來想一下有沒有什麼可以再來做多元化的經營能夠增加收入那這一塊的部分是不是能夠讓其實裡面的同仁再study一下然後再提整體的報告來跟委員做說明"},{"start":5979.428,"end":5983.575,"text":"好 那我們直接處理11案跟12案凍結200萬書面報告接下來13案請說明"},{"start":5988.318,"end":6014.457,"text":"13案的部分就是有關於我們的出租的土地還有一些土地都一直沒有辦法處理就是我們租給廠商了或是賣給廠商了這一塊廠商都一直沒有蓋那所以剛剛也報告過就是我們對於這些土地我們就依照產創條例46條之一的規定我們來做閒置土地的盤查那從最早的4年前盤的300多公頃"},{"start":6016.238,"end":6021.367,"text":"目前已經廠商陸陸續續在興建當中的只剩下十幾公頃"},{"start":6023.726,"end":6048.501,"text":"十幾公頃的土地目前被列管要刻那個伐環的然後如果今年如果在伐環他還是沒有興建的話明年度我們就會移送那個強制執行所來強制拍賣那對於這個嚇阻作用的部分有很大的促進我們土地的使用的部分有很大的功效那所以委員這邊所建議的部分我們已經陸陸續續在執行"},{"start":6050.422,"end":6074.066,"text":"但是要跟委員報告的就是因為我們要給廠商改善時間所以我們公告閒置土地要給他兩年改善如果說你不給他時間的話他可能也臨時找不到資金或是建築師這邊來興建所以我們期間的部分就是公告兩年兩年之後如果再不興建的話就處以罰還處以罰還再不興建的話我們就移送強制執行署"},{"start":6074.426,"end":6091.036,"text":"那這個程序走下來的話因為最快要到今年底或明年我們就有第一批要移送強制執行了是因為這一項這個經費預算是在這政策性開發不動產的這個服務費那整個園區的管理土地部分"},{"start":6091.596,"end":6118.177,"text":"到了今年的113年的8月還有73.92公頃的土地還沒有租售出去那有租出去的還沒有建的廠商的範圍還有153.37公頃所以我們整個管理局應該要協助企業來使用我們的土地充分使用他的效益出來讓潛在的廠商能夠提升他產業的用地這個標準好不好好那這一案的話我們就凍結1000萬書面報告好"},{"start":6121.06,"end":6121.602,"text":"接下來14案到15案請說明"},{"start":6123.966,"end":6153.432,"text":"事實上是賴委員這邊所提到的就是有關於我們也是一樣就是說土地陳出土地完了以後啊他的使用率的部分那這一塊就剛剛也提到就是說我們對於產創條例對於出租土地或出售土地啊我們都要求他來興建那也跟委員報告就是以往啊我們對於就是說陳購土地的部分啊他的時間啊不是就沒有掌控目前我們是有規定陳出完土地以後要"},{"start":6154.172,"end":6182.092,"text":"譬如說兩年要興建完成 已經給他規定了這一塊的部分我們已經確實帶來執行了好請 區長說明很清楚 其他委員我們再建議照列照列好14案跟15案第15案改成主決議預算照列接下來我們來處理主決議第16案第16案的部分遵照辦理"},{"start":6182.875,"end":6207.703,"text":"好 通過第17案 遵照辦理 通過第18案遵照辦理 通過19案 19案的部分內委員這邊所提到就是說美季要來公告進度那因為我們對於大林埔的部分我們都每半年或一年我們都會在林里的部分我們有公告這些資訊是不是能夠建議把文字美季刪掉就好把美季"},{"start":6208.97,"end":6225.199,"text":"兩個字拿掉好文字修正通過好謝謝第二十案第二十案也是一樣內委員也是要我們掌控這些工程進度美計我們也是建議美計兩個字拿掉好修正通過第二十一案遵照辦理"},{"start":6225.819,"end":6235.762,"text":"通過22案 中照辦理通過23案 中照辦理通過24案 中照辦理通過25案 中照辦理通過26案 中照辦理通過27案 中照辦理通過29案 中照辦理通過30案 中照辦理通過31案"},{"start":6244.345,"end":6265.091,"text":"31案 賴委員是要希望我們能夠對大林埔的部分來啟動這個預登記的部分那因為這一塊我們在千春計畫的部分我們的作業都委託高雄市政府那所以我們建議是不是能夠在文字上請原管局原意在114年上半年度來啟動加兩個字啟動"},{"start":6271.642,"end":6292.513,"text":"好31案文字修正通過接下來我們來處理的是水資源作業基金預算業務的總收入32案請說明我們遵照委員的意見來增加我們的工作來增加收入好32案增列500萬第33案請說明"},{"start":6298.534,"end":6319.993,"text":"主委委員說明我們這幾年的水資源正在大力的轉股所以我們必須要多很多的這個服務費用包括水資源的設施還有包括去年幾次的颱風我們要趕快跟他復旧過來那這個部分有跟賴委員有做溝通了那是不是請求大會給予支持"},{"start":6322.342,"end":6342.512,"text":"33不在就照列了33就他不在就照列委員溝通好的話請你把案子簽名送上來我們就照列好不好你們的作業要這樣子改成主決議的委員通過的你就要簽名送上來那委員有照列預算的你要簽名把他送上來是好我們就會節省時間好嗎好"},{"start":6343.919,"end":6353.424,"text":"第三十三案照列第三十四案請說明第三十四案跟委員溝通之後委員同意改成主決議請出示委員你有跟我溝通"},{"start":6357.776,"end":6359.678,"text":"34案邱志偉委員同意改成主決議接下來處理35案到44案請說明"},{"start":6376.248,"end":6394.225,"text":"基本上我們的服務我們朝著成本降低收入增加的方式那剛剛跟國會委員講我們當然支出的部分有增加是不是一個加薪那多數的委員我們都已經跟他溝通他都同意改成主決議那建請大會予以支持"},{"start":6395.404,"end":6397.925,"text":"多數的委員你要把哪一案說明出來38案 36 38 39 40 39 4040 41還有嗎還有4444案"},{"start":6420.131,"end":6436.783,"text":"好 那署長這些改成組決議你都已經事先溝通了你就必須要給委員同意簽個名要事先送上來那請邱志偉委員這36案我想我應該有簽名我昨天晚上思考半天"},{"start":6439.103,"end":6463.511,"text":"這個部分考慮到你們這個輸菌 水庫輸菌我希望這個能夠有更好的效果包括阿公店水庫包括這個其他的縣市的水庫輸菌的成果我想大家都希望能夠做得更好所以針對這個清淤輸菌的部分 水庫清淤的部分我還是覺得要凍結"},{"start":6465.751,"end":6483.684,"text":"請你們提出更精進的做法數六 凍結 我可以改成凍結一百萬凍結一百萬 你提出一個怎麼樣能夠有效對水庫輸菌讓水庫的蓄水量能夠保持一個好的狀況所以我還是要凍結一百萬好 36號還不改組決定凍結一百萬請陳寧菲委員"},{"start":6490.459,"end":6516.738,"text":"其實因為我比較關心在曾文水庫的一個預計狀況所以其實我們一直很努力我們也看到我們相關單位都很努力在清預可是它的一個清預的狀況現在就是要期待我們這個聯通館完成之後然後是不是能夠有一個比較重要的一個突破"},{"start":6517.839,"end":6531.949,"text":"但是我們還是在原始的這個部分到底我們要怎麼去把它做永續的經營我們還是要有一個方向因為年功還是只是部分"},{"start":6533.911,"end":6554.884,"text":"所以我覺得我是希望說能夠看到我們到底在整個政論水庫我要怎麼把它做一個比較好的強化否則這個我告訴你雖然我們在延緩它延緩它的淤積但是無法處理它目前的淤積量你應該 署長應該懂我的意思"},{"start":6556.105,"end":6576.447,"text":"我們這點的話是在延緩它 不能去改變它現在其實已經是淺盤 淺盤再淺盤的狀況所以每次 我想只要是大雨 這個颱風好大雨我都打電話跟署長說 署長 現在會比較容易讓你們還是要放水"},{"start":6579.929,"end":6592.975,"text":"因為水庫要放水啊可是你知道放水對於地方下游是雪上加霜可是你沒有板子又不行那到底這怎麼辦"},{"start":6594.622,"end":6604.225,"text":"沒水又沒水有水的時候沒飯又不行就因為我們的水庫都變成是淺盤水庫這該怎麼辦啊所以我認為說我希望是凍結"},{"start":6611.207,"end":6619.15,"text":"我希望的是一個完整性的佛祖我每次只要是這個颱風天一下大雨下面的人大來一下就開始好像聽說上面又要放水了"},{"start":6638.475,"end":6640.538,"text":"我覺得這個問題真的是還蠻嚴重的 謝謝好 請清穎委員"},{"start":6646.052,"end":6671.66,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想今天如果談到清淤跟土石銷貨的這些成本水利署這個應該是你們的重要工作之一如何在非汛期的時候加強清淤然後等到汛期來的時候能夠維持不淹水這件事情我覺得都還是要提前作業那剛剛幾位委員談到都是水庫的部分我要談的是"},{"start":6672.6,"end":6695.942,"text":"就是溪流就水利署主管的这些溪流的不管是疏菌或者是沙石的侵蕴比如说像我们这个宝来地区山上的这些沙石其实淤积的非常严重这个对水利署来讲一直是束手无策到底有没有一些更好的方式可以去做可以去进行那刚刚提到那个水库"},{"start":6697.143,"end":6715.703,"text":"清淤的部分我想这个署长我还是要再请教一下就是说你们在台风期间比如说像阿公店水库你们都会预先先放水等到台风来的时候要能够储水可是你们的放水每一次都会把它放到干"},{"start":6717.224,"end":6736.25,"text":"放到那個底盤的土石都露出來然後一直曬太陽那個土石全部硬掉你們要清淤的時候也不好清那對於民眾或者對於附近的居民或者是對於那個景觀來講又很難看那每一次都跟你們說可是我覺得"},{"start":6737.301,"end":6748.339,"text":"可能你們的維護人員水資局就會覺得說我水就把老人家撐起來這樣比較不開心水如果來我就不開心所以我是覺得你的那個"},{"start":6749.659,"end":6774.261,"text":"你還是要比如說你要放水的時候你還是要維持一個低水面嘛保持那個土壤的濕潤度你要清淤的時候也會比較好清嘛你至少你的湖面你的水庫的湖面是有一點水的不是全部乾枯的那個狀態嘛像這個我每一次都講可是你們每一次都是公了就沒了公了就沒了這個可不可以請署長說明一下好不好好先請陳少明委員"},{"start":6780.539,"end":6806.187,"text":"我們水利市那個我們那個市長他們都在講清衣我們不要管不太嚴重但是有幾個地方有樓山水庫大埔水庫雖然不適宜其實那個地方你要替我們清一清雖然不怎麼大但算切水的時候就變成很重要了好不好大埔我現在有一項事情包括柏中寧在這"},{"start":6808.048,"end":6812.82,"text":"大家都不敢建水庫我們苗栗縣中東景縣長說他要建水庫"},{"start":6813.991,"end":6837.691,"text":"但是我們中東景縣長也有去拜訪過我們水利市長,啊拜訪了沒有什麼地方那你要有決心啊,縣長想要做這麼大膽,而且這麼創新的敢做水庫啊你現在要怎麼配合,好像去拜訪完了就沒有什麼具體的效果你不就要跟我們說,要安裝來做,你們預算要怎樣,便利好我們才贏一個"},{"start":6839.008,"end":6847.474,"text":"不然我們真的有時候一坨災進去很熱心,但是我看起來好像你們對於建水庫都很怕你給我回答一下,不然我就亂問了好,請署長回答鄭惠勳回答"},{"start":6860.203,"end":6871.504,"text":"首先 諸位委員的指教對於水庫的庫董的維持跟甚至是回春的這個部分我們都有一個計畫我們會感謝委員的這個督促我們會來加促"},{"start":6872.689,"end":6897.569,"text":"除此之外的話不但是水庫庫容維持剛剛陳委員提到系統性的部分如何調度來促進我們台南包括整個大南部的這個穩定的這個工作隨著真穩南化連通管路在去年完工的通水我們增加了這個水量很大所以一直到農曆過年我跟委員報告真穩水庫都是滿庫的"},{"start":6899.824,"end":6913.824,"text":"這開始這個即便說一起倒做公關這也是一個區域系統性的效果發生那至於委員督促我們的水庫放水的這個策略大概颱風的時候大家都希望我們水庫多放一點水"},{"start":6914.861,"end":6943.127,"text":"可是颱風過後的時候又希望說水庫要滿庫那基本上這是一個需要專業性的一個調控這個感謝委員的這個提醒那除此之外的話邱委員所提到的無論是水庫的清淤或是河流的清淤這裡面我們特別著重在南部特別是在楷米颱風所在的區域剛剛這個蔡議員也帶我們到現場去現勘巴掌溪"},{"start":6943.707,"end":6959.432,"text":"甚至是瀑紫溪這一些的溪流那邱永元所關心的寶萊地區我們在老農溪我們已經有提報行政院有專案計畫在做清淤的工作這個是所移關河川的數據那至於"},{"start":6960.833,"end":6974.954,"text":"陳委員所關心的新建水庫的部分 基本上這個計畫已經通過環評但是因為很久都還沒有實施 還必須要去做一個環境調查我們會在地方支持而對環境衝擊"},{"start":6977.844,"end":6998.284,"text":"可獲得大家的這個接受的一個情況之下我們來全面性的推動我們的所謂的水資源工作在這邊也跟主委報告在大會的這個監督之下我們部長的帶領我們去年的這個清淤量創歷史新高而且還獲得了考試院"},{"start":6999.084,"end":7012.191,"text":"清淤的這個團體獎項 那我們未來還是會持續的朝著這個目標來邁進 而各個區域的發展計畫 水資源的部分都供應無虞 請諸位委員不用擔心"},{"start":7017.446,"end":7039.741,"text":"請陳昌明委員賴市長你剛剛講到天花湖水庫要環境調查是苗栗縣政府做還是你們水利市做我們已經在做了大概多久的時間能完成我們事實上在過去幾年我們在公務預算的部分我們都有編列相關的這個計畫今年也有"},{"start":7040.621,"end":7068.826,"text":"今年有這樣多久的時間你每年都有編列這應該很快就可以完成了嘛今年會有報告做一個規定完成環境調查報告會完成嘛今年完成好 了解好 請蔡議員好 謝謝主席那事實上剛剛這個署長有去講到清淤啦水庫清淤還有包括河川的輸菌它就會產生大量的土方"},{"start":7070.069,"end":7098.112,"text":"所以這個土方去化的問題我這幾年跟藍帶署長我們事實上都討論了幾個月但是後來都會卡在不管是水利署本身或者是在做制洪池的時候涉及到台塘的土地台塘公司本身那因為台塘今天也有在現場常常就是有大量的土方沒有辦法被去化那造成的疏菌侵淤的效率是不夠的"},{"start":7099.096,"end":7119.51,"text":"所以我是覺得說今天經濟部可不可以站在一個比較上位的概念應該要協助這兩個單位包括水利署包括台塘公司我們應該要有一個土方的一個去化的一個方式那尤其是當我們在梅河有一些農民他們的農地可能會農地相對比較低窪那他們需要用土方來墊高他們的農地這個時候我們應該不要再去計較說我這個土方就還要再"},{"start":7130.358,"end":7144.197,"text":"土方還是有價格的這個價格還是要透過拍賣的一個形式當然土方有價格可是我們知道這幾年因為持續在輸進所以土方價格幾乎都是接近0元"},{"start":7147.641,"end":7170.681,"text":"那如果在這樣的情況之下農民或者是其他工部門他在做工程的時候他有需要土方的時候我們就想辦法大家的土給他們用這樣的話造成整個資源是可以大家可以更加不要被浪費而且不會造成這些農民他要土方他又要去別的地方載然後整個土方的市場又很混亂"},{"start":7172.102,"end":7193.357,"text":"所以我是覺得說既然有要做輸菌我們不管是水利署或者是台糖應該要協助最快的時間把土方去化好那這個可能需要一個專案來做一個辦理所以我是覺得經濟部可以用一個比較上位的專案來處理這件事情好 謝謝好 請張家俊委員第37案"},{"start":7217.534,"end":7235.491,"text":"剛剛我執行問過了好幾次關於失禁的土方它的市量非常大現在地方都很困擾困擾在哪裡 失禁的土方到底要擺在哪裡擺在他們的那個垃圾場裡面一下子進去就把垃圾場填滿"},{"start":7237.236,"end":7259.929,"text":"那到底我們能不能設一個看你們水利地還是哪裡別人的土地都不給你用 倒在林間政府又不允許所以失禁的那個土方你除了水庫的失禁我說包括我們野溪或是你們子女的失禁的時候這個土方的堆置一定要有區域不然沒有人敢去標這個問題很嚴重"},{"start":7262.21,"end":7286.138,"text":"那有人跟我提議說真的沒有辦法的話就推到你們那個譬如說在大安溪啦中港溪啦等倒水的來給它沖爪不然沒有地方堆這個問題真的要克服啦如果你不克服雖然你水庫的濕淨增加沉水量但是在子溪的濕淨還有野溪的濕淨上啊"},{"start":7287.438,"end":7311.652,"text":"大家不曉得要如何解決土方我為了這樣花了一個月去解決所以我們中東體縣長把這個責任擔下來所有責任他負責才把那個縣裡的那個縣裡溪的失禁土方整個堆積起來沒沒所在你們失禁現在很夭壽你們把失禁的土方都擺在那個溪的旁邊裡面"},{"start":7313.032,"end":7328.826,"text":"啊現在大姿勢來陰調就叫我們要去看你要看都是這些土方害的你們失禁的時候沒有再走因為沒有地方失禁的工程不貴但是你要維持土方的話那成本很高不曉得要找在哪裡"},{"start":7329.929,"end":7330.329,"text":"好 請張家俊委員"},{"start":7363.302,"end":7386.577,"text":"謝謝主席我必須要講也呼應一下陳昌明委員跟蔡英瑜委員的確是地方上有他們所述的這些問題存在也希望就是我們署長你畢竟是水利專家而且水利經驗這麼豐富可不可以幫我們找一個解決的辦法那這個水資源作業基金我本席提出要凍結20%是因為這個"},{"start":7391.44,"end":7398.341,"text":"這個銷貨成本的編列就是集水銷貨成本編列52.1558萬52億1558萬7千元那這個成本其實叫113年增加了相當大的幅度所以它這個給水的業務收支短缺高達29點"},{"start":7418.266,"end":7442.966,"text":"29億然後9571萬2千元喔然後這是五年來近五年來最高所以也希望說這兩項成本包括說這個修理保養還有保固費用啊包括折舊這個折耗攤提費用這麼高的支出到底是為什麼所以希望說是不是署長能夠做一個說明跟解釋這樣子 謝謝好 請署長再補充"},{"start":7447.873,"end":7463.693,"text":"剛剛主委委員指導首先針對於土方的去化大的策略上面我舉一個例子我們現在跟台廠公司合作在巴掌溪的南岸利用蘇安農場蘇安農場非常的低窪就是要台廠自力花他的成本來做"},{"start":7464.694,"end":7482.686,"text":"農地的改善對他來講也是一個負擔而我這些土方要再出去我自己要發錢所以我們產生了一個很好的模式是我們後來精算的結果我把土方拿去不管是填海造陸或怎麼樣我的成本很高可是我究竟"},{"start":7483.507,"end":7498.603,"text":"在蘇安農場我把它墊高然後甚至排水系統做好規劃這些我們都來做不用台廠來負擔那這樣一來對我也有幫助對台廠有幫助這個就是雙方都有很好的這個"},{"start":7499.985,"end":7527.704,"text":"注意的這個方式那這個也是過去委員會所指導的方向我們現在已經在做落實所以在這邊跟委員說明那除此之外的話水是每個人要用的啦但是我們又不希望說這個水造成大家比較大的負擔我們當然希望我們降低成本增加收入所以我們雖然在114年是短處但是我比113年的短處數還更少一點"},{"start":7528.544,"end":7557.227,"text":"那我增加的一些的這些管理的效能的這個提高那至於剛剛張委員所提到的為什麼說這幾年我們會投資的那麼多第一個是去年連續接連的颱風來造成我們的水庫的設施啊必須要趕快去復旧所以這些我們希望在今年的4月底之前都能完成這個工作第二個部分是過去委員會一直支持我們興建海灘廠"},{"start":7558.368,"end":7573.911,"text":"所以我們要新建海灘廠所以我們編列到114年所以因為這樣子所以我們114年的經費才增加那基於時間還有實際的需求再度的懇請大會來支持我們這個部分的預算"},{"start":7575.367,"end":7586.849,"text":"好委員都支持這部分的預算了現在把事情做好尤其是儲育的工作那也陸續在做了很多年所以在我們先直接來處理35案到44案38案39案40案41案44案改為主決議從35到44我們凍結1000萬書面報告1000萬"},{"start":7607.363,"end":7634.934,"text":"好 接下來45案請說明主委委員剛剛所提示的是我們水資源經營很大的困難的問題這個就需要專業的服務來做相關的這個評估那我們希望我們的水庫是健康的所以我們這個服務的費用畢竟相對於工程的成本不是很大但是期待委員會給我們支持這個部分"},{"start":7636.677,"end":7652.872,"text":"張其凱委員也同意改成主決議 已經簽名我們送到已經溝通好的案子請先送上來第45案不檢列 預算照列我們現在處理46到50案 請說明46到50案的"},{"start":7660.448,"end":7666.888,"text":"這個案裡面 其中48案 49案我們已經溝通了 然後你趕快拿去"},{"start":7669.467,"end":7697.132,"text":"我們現在送到這個大會這邊來那這裡面主要是談到耗水費的部分那耗水費也是大會的支持所以我們在修改水利法我們從112年針對大用水戶來去徵收這個費用那徵收的結果其實對比它對於推動ESG甚至是說委員所提到的它需要用到再生水的這個部分提高水資源的回收率是有很大的這個幫助"},{"start":7698.292,"end":7722.49,"text":"所以我們希望說大會予以支持這個部分的預算我必須要說一下就是說在開米颱風這個期間所有的護岸的工程那水地署要緊迫的完成"},{"start":7723.564,"end":7743.329,"text":"一些其餘的事件你們就要趕快緊述的完成那還有未來的就是說東國西沿岸到那個王宮就是那個海岸線的部分相關的工程你們也應該緊述完成我就是借這個順便說一下好不好"},{"start":7744.229,"end":7758.684,"text":"上禮拜委員所垂詢的包括那個道路的部分事實上我們現在已經報告了那個變道也要趕快緊述完成請清理委員"},{"start":7760.801,"end":7777.978,"text":"謝謝主席我想請教一下這個我上次也跟水利署談過就是說你們在有一些無自來水地區比較偏遠的山區又找不到水源的部分他們其實有一些水權是要跟水利署申請的這些是不是水利署能夠有主動"},{"start":7779.461,"end":7805.345,"text":"積極的比如說去跟自來水公司啊或者是跟農水署去做溝通協調然後讓地方可以有水權去使用那個山林那一卷嘛對不對應該不只山林山林啊甲仙啊很多地方其實靠近藍水堰可是附近的居民是沒有自來水客用又找不到水權喔那這個部分是不是能夠請水利署能夠來協助一下好不好好遵照辦理"},{"start":7808.817,"end":7814.884,"text":"本席就不動之了我可以改成主決議好我們來處理46案到50案47 48 49改成主決議46到50預算照列第51案請說明"},{"start":7826.892,"end":7837.656,"text":"本案經過跟邱委員溝通他已經同意改組決議然後組決議的簽名我們稍後提案委員不在我們就照列好51項改為組決議預算照列"},{"start":7842.897,"end":7850.242,"text":"現在來處理主決議第52案通過53案通過54案通過55案通過56案通過57案通過58案通過59案通過60案通過61案建議說文字最後一行局部的修改"},{"start":7873.017,"end":7901.095,"text":"有關於建請經濟部於一個月內我們建議說再增加三個字建請經濟部水利署建請經濟部水利署對好 陳委員61他這邊有修正文字OK好 61案文字修正通過接下來我們要來處理的是"},{"start":7902.557,"end":7910.868,"text":"推廣貿易基金在基金的用途部分第62案到74案請說明"},{"start":7917.337,"end":7934.43,"text":"主席各位委員62案到74案我簡單的歸類為幾類委員關心的議題第一個是陳委員關心的我們對於傳產產業的相關的輔導最主要其實我們也有跟這些傳產產業"},{"start":7935.791,"end":7963.628,"text":"也有做一些互动已经有约好在下个礼拜会直接的来跟他们面对去了解他们的需求那我们也观察到这些传言产业它其实的网站编列的不错只是缺乏了英文的说明所以在英文的行录部分还有一些影片我们也会做协助另外呢如果有需要的话我们可以协助开设像这个商用英文或者展览英文的"},{"start":7964.321,"end":7984.305,"text":"這些課程那第二大類呢是很多委員有關心我們加入CPTPP包括63案64案66案等尤其是像召委很關心這一次呢我們沒有能夠成立台灣的入會工作小組但是呢我們有觀察到這個在去年11月"},{"start":7984.765,"end":8003.895,"text":"部長及執委會他有發布一個聲明是他會強調不會停止對於其他申請案的考量以及討論所以呢因為這整個案子是由OTN在統籌所以我們也會配合OTN的規劃在持續的跟其他成員國來溝通"},{"start":8006.096,"end":8034.227,"text":"那第三第三大類的話是有關於這個貿易推廣工作是第65案我們這個在出口的部分呢可以很篤定的算今天會公佈全年的出口的數據我們很篤定的話應該是可以連14個月長紅但是呢我們還是會積極的努力帶領我們的廠商到各國去"},{"start":8035.227,"end":8046.476,"text":"參展同時也會洽邀更多的國際的買主到台灣來跟我們的業者做相關的這個媒合的工作那還有委員很關心的是我們的旅運費"},{"start":8049.537,"end":8075.443,"text":"在從111年到113年我們的資訊力未達五成最主要的原因是因為111年還有112年的上半年受疫情的影響很多的活動呢很多的這個會議都是用視訊的方式召開因此把我們整個的這個旅運費給拉下來但是現在已經都回復正常所以114年的部分"},{"start":8075.923,"end":8103.575,"text":"我們可以跟更多的國際的這個來進行交流也有需要到國外去所以邀請委員來支持我們旅運費那最後一點呢很多的委員有關心我們的海外工程的ODA的進展其實現在已經有具體的這個目標過我們在跟對方洽談但是對方基於政治的因素希望我們不要對外的公開所以呢我們基於尊重這個對方國家"},{"start":8104.995,"end":8114.481,"text":"的這個考量所以我們還是會進行相關ODA的這個案子的推動那以上呢是簡單的報告請各位委員給予支持"},{"start":8121.199,"end":8135.187,"text":"我們62案到74案很多都談的都是整個我們的對推展貿易的工作服務那尤其剛好提到就是CPTPP我們在2021年的時候9月份我們就申請加入我們萊豬也吃了"},{"start":8136.848,"end":8162.131,"text":"這個福島食品也吃了那可是我們一直還沒辦法進入CPTPP那我們要向世界來證明我們要解決這個貿易壁壘的這個決心在這一次2024年加拿大所舉辦的這個部長級的這個執行委員會也把台灣來擱置沒有進入所以在這部分的話我們是不是要再努力一些會員國或非會員國或是雙邊貿易等等"},{"start":8163.091,"end":8191.432,"text":"這個部分我們希望我們整個在貿易的推廣上可以再加強這邊給我們做一個明確的一個報告哪些會員國不支持或者說我們要加入這個CPTPP有沒有既定的一個期程因為他們要小組做那個我們加入的一些會議組織都還沒有所以這部分我要請你們做一個詳細的報告給我們書面報告好不好現在請陳迪菲委員"},{"start":8193.973,"end":8196.395,"text":"我們現在先是以協業為主已經約了1月14號那在哪裡"},{"start":8216.026,"end":8235.692,"text":"在台南那你要去跟他們盤整到底說他們所需要的其實他們都很用心很努力其實我都說鞋業如果我們能夠變成一個樣板它可以是一個給很多船產作為一個模範甚至他們一個推動的方向"},{"start":8236.232,"end":8264.895,"text":"所以我們一個產業一個產業做盤整那麼他們才會有信心所以這部分再麻煩我們的署長謝謝好 請謝一芬委員署長那我在想說因為我知道說最近業務推動也不利然後又很多壓力還是簡略要不要"},{"start":8266.338,"end":8293.877,"text":"剪裂一千八你们少做一点啊是不是报告委员因为这些费用呢都是其实是用于厂商譬如说我们在国外要参展的时候要跟国外的买主讲说我们在什么地方有个台湾馆时间日期地点然后呢这些国外的买主才会知道在哪里所以这些其实都是一些帮助我们厂商的相关的费用所以恳请委员支持你看你们那个贸易"},{"start":8294.958,"end":8302.265,"text":"那個講到那個貿易署的他就那個你們部長就不在啊你看他都不維護你們預算刪掉刪掉"},{"start":8304.161,"end":8324.27,"text":"中情委員支持部長都不在 可是他不重視貿易啊對不對他就馬上跑去廟中沒有沒有 部長有跟我請我想說他不重視貿易部長非常重視國際貿易的業務他有重視嗎給他回答一下給他回答一下來 請郭部長"},{"start":8337.935,"end":8360.094,"text":"是部長你有重視貿易嗎非常重視你如果不重視我們就簡略了我們現在是大好的時機啦這個中美貿易的這個改變以後啊那我們增加了對美國跟對歐盟然後對這個亞洲地區的這整個的生產態勢會改變所以我們一定要重視貿易"},{"start":8362.006,"end":8391.284,"text":"那若是有重视毕竟我们台湾的经济都是仰赖出口为主那必须要对于外贸的推广上面要尽力的支持所以希望说我们在推广外贸的相关的业务上面经济不能够真的非常重视谢谢委员支持好那我们就我改冻结谢谢好你改冻结建议"},{"start":8394.12,"end":8410.778,"text":"好 接下来赖瑞龙委员的提案65案好 我们先请邱颖委员"},{"start":8414.329,"end":8435.74,"text":"好 謝謝主席我這個提案是跟我們加入CPTPP是有相關的那我還是想要請教一下我們現在的推動的進度跟您現在可以掌握或者是可以對外說明的進度到哪裡可不可以解要說明一下請說是不是回答"},{"start":8437.381,"end":8453.143,"text":"是謝謝邱委員的指導這是就是在去年的這個11月很遺憾的沒有成立我們的入會工作小組但是在11月的部長級的會議諸委會當中有說明並不會停止對於其他入會申請國"},{"start":8455.065,"end":8473.583,"text":"這個案子的討論那我們其實也了解到其實這個有受到政治因素的考量但是呢我們並不因此會拖延我們申請入會的這個相關的腳步我們要做的方向大概有分為幾點第一個部分呢還是要加強這個"},{"start":8475.104,"end":8493.199,"text":"跟这些成员国官方的接触双边的会议要持续的进行利用双边的会议来争取这个对方国家对我们加入CPPD的支持同时呢像很多的多边的场域例如APEC就是一个很好的场域也可以"},{"start":8493.661,"end":8518.774,"text":"用APEC的場域跟其他的成員國做意見的交換另外一個部分很重要就是要加強產業的合作在CPED成員國很多的國家都是位於這個這個新南向的國家這些國家呢例如說都很有智慧都有智慧城市的需求我們也可以利用產業合作的方式來爭取這些國家對我們支持此外的我們也鼓勵相關的工協會"},{"start":8519.914,"end":8536.14,"text":"跟CPT成員的工協會來進行交流這是我們推動的相關重點的工作我再問一個簡單問題您剛講那個工作小組沒有成立但遊說小組呢比如說你們在跟各國進行"},{"start":8537.875,"end":8558.204,"text":"遊說的部分有成立嗎OTN的話會要求我們其實這個工作是由OTN外交部跟經濟部共同在推動的所以我們也會在這個OTN統籌之下分別就不同的國家還有不同的這個產業別來進行相關的遊說工作以上報告"},{"start":8559.565,"end":8577.844,"text":"好請任委員好謝謝喔這一個部分因為我看到貿易推廣工作有增加了1億多的一個經費那當然我是認同整個持續的推展不管是各項的一些對外的貿易的部分但是裡面還是要請這個"},{"start":8580.627,"end":8600.318,"text":"部長跟署長這邊還是持續的加強 特別是我還是會關注到南部的一些產業的一些活動的部分 不管是在對外的行銷推廣或者是南部的一些策展等等 我還希望署長能夠加強 我知道署長有重視但是要持續加強 那我就凍結一千萬 書面報告再行解凍好 謝謝好"},{"start":8604.438,"end":8631.44,"text":"62案到74案67案跟73案改成主決議我們全案凍結一議書面報告接下來75到77案請說明是75到77案是有關於幾位委員有關心我們這個海外工程"},{"start":8632.233,"end":8659.599,"text":"贷款的这个补助利息补助的计划推动的进展刚才有说明现在其实已经有具体的个案在进行当中但是对方的国家基于政治的考量希望我们不要对外公开那实际上我们跟对方的国家已经就像融资还有公共工程推动的方式现在都在进行这个协商我们也希望利用这个ODA的"},{"start":8660.379,"end":8676.185,"text":"案件呢能夠讓我們的工程業者能夠進入這個國際市場來增加他們的時機那以後呢他們就可以這個承辦更多的國際的工程案件以上說明請賴樂隆委員77案"},{"start":8689.908,"end":8716.942,"text":"這個部分因為過去以來都無意的一個編列但是都沒有任何的執行那我覺得還是要請國防署這邊還是要持續加油就是說新南向現在很重要那很多的海外的一些公共城其實我們也希望既然每年在編列應該要努力去做執行所以這個部分我一樣先做凍結一千萬那希望能夠鼓勵也請署長加油好不好是"},{"start":8717.782,"end":8720.865,"text":"好75案到77案凍結1000萬書面報告接下來78案到89案請說明"},{"start":8730.769,"end":8753.715,"text":"跟委員會報告有關於78案到89案這有關於能源基金的部分那我們可以把它歸納成幾個部分來跟大家做說明那第一個是有關於張其凱委員關心的有關部分的縣市有跳電的情況那這個部分台電公司已經有電網強韌計畫會做相關的一些電網的改善來減少這個跳電的情形"},{"start":8754.255,"end":8776.705,"text":"那另外委員從80到88這邊很多都是有關於節能政策的一些對我們的一些建議包括說對服務業的節能成果所以要持續的加強那這邊也做一個報告我們整體的能源成效在過去5年大概已經提高了5.4%那以非製造業以這個服務業來看的話但他的用電的一個"},{"start":8777.265,"end":8792.297,"text":"節約大概也降低了1.34%所以這邊已經有一個持續的成果那另外委員關心的做要持續的推動X口來做深度節能部分我們在計畫裡面也有編列的相關的預算我們會持續的來推動深度節能"},{"start":8792.813,"end":8822.253,"text":"那另外針對這些節能政策應該持續的推廣讓我們廣大的民眾能夠了解的部分我們也會透過我們的廣宣計畫來讓我們的廣大的社會跟企業來了解那另外針對於人民使用效率的部分那謝委員特別也關心到說相關的執行成效應該做一個適當的揭露那這邊我們在這個基金的相關的執行成果也都會依照規定送到國家圖書館以及我們的經濟委員會這邊那另外委員大概也關切到一些廢熱的回收計畫"},{"start":8823.133,"end":8845.53,"text":"那過去的執行率在疫情期間確實是有比較降低因為大家有減少資本支出的關係那我們看到去年113年這個執行的情況已經有所回升了所以這個廢熱的部分已經開始有慢慢的回升這邊請委員來支持所以中整起來大概有關於那邊基建的部分做整體的綜合說明請委員支持好 請邱營委員"},{"start":8847.486,"end":8862.431,"text":"好 謝謝主席這個關於我的提案92案講到那個廢熱的部分謝謝局長剛剛談到這兩年已經有回升你現在回升的幅度是到82對不對 112年度那未來預期呢我們預期到"},{"start":8864.712,"end":8893.792,"text":"應該可以達到九成以上沒有問題因為我們最近在跟這個廠商做宣導的時候大家也有感受到這個節能減碳的必要性那費熱費冷的回收的話就可以針對他的結緣人員以及達到減碳的效果所以會持續的提升所以你預期到九成以上是一百一十今年度會到一定會到九成以上甚至可能會可以達到更好的結果OK好那我就我就把它改成署決議我就不凍結了是謝謝委員"},{"start":8895.356,"end":8902.039,"text":"我們經濟部在推廣綠能的時候其實我們的陸域風機它的效率其實是比較少的在彰化縣我們已經有非常大的離岸風電的暗場了"},{"start":8916.587,"end":8944.336,"text":"但在陸翼風機的推廣上面是不是對於太接近民宅因為會有眩影以及太接近就是說養殖區會有可能產生的低頻噪音的相關的影響那我覺得經濟部應該要一併的考量在推我們在推再生能源的時候那必須要有效率的去推動這些事情當然還有一些就是漁電工生不要發生就是像嘉義縣這個情況"},{"start":8946.196,"end":8965.76,"text":"我們在推廣再生能源以及未來的能源政策的時候必須要有一個非常縝密的相關規劃不然第一個我們的發電成本過高對於企業他們所需要的綠電也沒有太大的幫助"},{"start":8969.381,"end":8996.161,"text":"就這個部分我可以不要給予你們刪除但是你必須要提出一個完整的專案報告給委員會那委員會才能夠針對就是說我們未來能源政策的規劃那相關的那個就是要應該要就是我覺得這是對國家非常重要對經濟也非常重要的事情我覺得經濟部能源署應該要提出一個相關的規劃出來好請陳廷飛委員"},{"start":9007.449,"end":9022.361,"text":"我們現在都要求各廠商一定要去做一些相關的節能減碳的一些動作可是我覺得我們的方式跟我們的處理讓廠商會有一點覺得我們只是為了罰而罰"},{"start":9024.122,"end":9050.723,"text":"因為我們現在好像是會比較他如果說在前年度在整個節能的狀態沒有那麼優的話可能我們會給他一個提醒然後甚至會做一些處罰的動作這會有問題啦我覺得我們應該是要怎麼輔導他們怎麼做到真正節能減碳他們要做是不要做不知道要怎麼做"},{"start":9051.343,"end":9079.206,"text":"那你今天就說這個要求他們要達到什麼樣的一個標準那如果沒有達到的話可能我就要去做什麼樣的一個這個所謂罰款的動作那有意義嗎罰了之後又怎麼樣罰了之後還是一樣沒有減能減碳呢好 我們的目的是希望他能夠減能減碳不是罰可是現在讓廠商的感受是你是為了要換我"},{"start":9082.026,"end":9098.802,"text":"我事實上也沒有辦法去達到我想要達到的所以我們到底有沒有這樣的一個協助平台那誰要去做是台電嗎還是你們到底誰來做這樣的一個窗口對於廠商的節能減碳這個部分"},{"start":9100.987,"end":9127.379,"text":"前面的農委員好 我的83案一樣我認為現在的這個預算其實看起來是有增加包括結算跟決算比也都增加了包括7000 將近8000萬跟將近1億多那為所關切的也是我們能源的開發其實一直都很努力在做但是節電我認為也很重要節能這一塊還是要持續的來做一些努力"},{"start":9128.599,"end":9144.648,"text":"我覺得特別是一些深入節能推動工作這個我當然是支持啦也希望能源署這邊加速來推動所以我是凍結150萬也希望提疏運報告更完整的一些方案出來也希望達到更大的成效讓節能工作做得更好"},{"start":9145.523,"end":9170.713,"text":"好 節能減碳的部分的話我們也希望透過這個輔導的方式來協助廠商可以導入一些節能的技術讓我們的不管是產業也好或是民生用電也好都能夠做節約用電所以我們希望能源署能夠針對節電的這個效率能夠重新檢討來提升整個產業的節電成效好不好那我們就來處理78案到89案"},{"start":9173.914,"end":9199.594,"text":"在80案86案89案改成主決議我們全案凍結500萬書面報告這個主席我再補一下我88案部分就一併了我也是要再提醒一下一些政策的宣導工作還是要持續推動不要讓能源政策或一些受到了這個一些錯誤的訊息的影響我還是希望署長社區要加強你的88案是改主決議是嗎"},{"start":9200.84,"end":9211.831,"text":"沒有我這個是動啊所以我是78案到89案對我只是提醒說一併併進去一併都有一定提醒一下能源署是好那就78案到89案凍結500萬書面報告接下來90案到92案請說明"},{"start":9218.716,"end":9247.596,"text":"跟委員報告90案到92案在委員關心的其實我剛剛在整體說明裡面大概也談就有關廢熱廢冷的這一些回收的計畫過去是有執行不如預期那跟委員報告就過去疫情期間確實廠商投資相對比較少那現在已經這個他們慢慢的這個隨著景氣以及對這個減能減碳的重視所以這個廢熱廢冷的這些相關的回收的部分廠商參與已經有提高了以上報告好 請謝一鋒委員你有提案"},{"start":9250.199,"end":9268.78,"text":"但是我覺得其實還是要增加效率啦就是說因為畢竟我們現在沒有就是說沒有往節能的方向然後或者是沒有增加發電量的話那對於當然國內的用電以及成本的增加都不是那所以我覺得我們還是我還是凍結1%好不好"},{"start":9286.089,"end":9296.074,"text":"主席,這我剛講過了,我就不凍結了,改組決議就好了"},{"start":9306.448,"end":9332.496,"text":"再說明一下 新一份委員的提案好我剛剛針對委員的剛剛有在推詢我綜合做一下答覆那有關再生能源的部分 那陸域風機其實我們現在跟環保署大概那個環評標準有加嚴了所以現在是到500公尺大概就要做環評透過環評的制度來看到底對環境有沒有影響那要總體規劃的部分我們大概也主要因為土地來源在主要根據農業部所以我們現在跟農業部有在"},{"start":9333.656,"end":9342.809,"text":"研擬這個相關的一個快篩的機制第一個避開生態敏感區避開這些環境敏感區然後針對可以做的部分我們把它盤點出來採用這整體規劃的方式來做處理那剛剛那個"},{"start":9348.772,"end":9375.522,"text":"陳委員所提到的確實對那節能的部分跟委員報告我們現在才不會馬上針對他沒有達標就開罰我們會先用一個限期改善的方式那我們輔導團會進去先讓他改善其實目的確實是要讓他改善不是要罰所以我們如果說發現沒有達標我們限期改善然後去輔導輔導的結果如果他還沒有達標才會有後續的處罰那也會持續的輔導這個部分是我們現在採取的一些做法市長事實上並不是這樣啊"},{"start":9378.984,"end":9393.735,"text":"我會這樣子講就是大家收到你們的這些法案你沒有辦法配合你們節能的這個標準標的大大小小案例非常多你沒有辦法每一件"},{"start":9395.339,"end":9419.275,"text":"你大的可以那種小的你沒有辦法說你們輔導團第一時間就可以去協助然後呢你們就可以給他很多的方向不可能你們沒有那麼多人力啦我針對800以上的大用戶啦800以上的大用戶現在是有一些我們的這些中小企業也都收到你們相關的資料"},{"start":9420.675,"end":9443.45,"text":"這個做法我們再來做檢討我們目的還是先輔導到地方就是來做說明或者是來輔導我們來安排跟地方政府因為地方政府也跟我們一起做檢討那就是到地方來說明那我們就凍結少一點好90案到92案凍結1000萬書面報告"},{"start":9448.237,"end":9476.2,"text":"接下來是93案到99案 請說明好 93案到99案這一邊其實後面的題目帶也有些會有重複那委員主要關切的會包括幾個大的項目那第一個是有關於電動車 電動機車的一個推動那電動機車的推動也需要一些環境的配套跟這些相關的一些充電設施 充換電站設施的一些配置"},{"start":9476.54,"end":9496.935,"text":"那這部分我們產發署大概在今年有一些比較好的一些輔導計畫會來做推動所以在電動機車的部分會來做一些加強跟改善那另外是委員另外關心的一個有關於我們定制型燃料電池的一個示範獎勵計畫那在過去的疫情期間確實也是比較少"},{"start":9497.475,"end":9511.611,"text":"我們現在看到定制型燃料這樣的一個技術也開始成熟所以針對定制型燃料的這個推動計畫目前看起來廠商申請的情況也開始都熱絡起來我們覺得這個在未來可以來做大力的一些推動"},{"start":9512.472,"end":9531.163,"text":"那另外在謝議員這邊談到說這個新興計劃跟延續計劃註明這部分那我們現在是針對新的計劃大概都有註明的那延續計劃當然我們就沒有特別去想但是新計劃我們都會把它註明出來那以上針對這個到99案的部分做簡要的說明"},{"start":9534.241,"end":9551.529,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我兩個部分請教一個就是在本席的提案第105案就是你們那個在整個電動車的現在是93到99好好好 那我等一下再說好 請謝一芬委員我想"},{"start":9552.506,"end":9570.831,"text":"我想請問一下 美國現在宣布要跟Toyota等等的車廠進行下一階段 下一世代的電動車那下一世代的電動車到底"},{"start":9573.152,"end":9597.55,"text":"目前的產業規劃是什麼那我們要怎麼做那這個部分你們是不是要進一步的說明一下給委員會知道那這樣子我們才對於就是說我們能源石油基金的相關的這個產業我們可以就是說給予你們凍結少一點那不然的話你們沒有提出下一世代對於我們所有電動車產業相關零組件的"},{"start":9601.013,"end":9606.568,"text":"這樣子相關的規劃的話那我覺得對於我們的預算好像也不能夠那麼輕易的放過請內論委員"},{"start":9612.537,"end":9637.882,"text":"好我先提一下就是有關於這個石油經濟媒體跟業務宣導費一方面是我還希望持續的加強宣導特別是一些安全的一些設置的部分那另外一方面我還是希望還是提醒這個整個政策上面還是要多多的加強在更多能源政策上就是除了這個以外的能源政策上還是要持續做宣導好不好我一樣凍結50萬說明報告再請解"},{"start":9644.073,"end":9652.589,"text":"我們這邊提案的委員很多都是簡列陳廷飛委員的部分也有簡列的部分"},{"start":9657.011,"end":9677.072,"text":"那有沒有針對我們陳廷飛委員檢列部分針對那個陳委員關心的是有關於家戶設置太陽光墊那確實太陽光墊在設在屋頂是目前台灣比較能接受的方式那我們現在目前的累積累積的設置量也達到8GW以上確實這個是值得在做大力的推動所以我們在"},{"start":9677.872,"end":9696.097,"text":"最近也在去年底的時候也到行政院提出了一個鼓勵小屋頂的這樣的計畫那同時在法規上也針對未來的新建屋頂也都強制的要來設置相關的屋頂太陽光墊所以針對家戶的這個屋頂太陽光墊我們會持續的加強力道來做推動以上的說明"},{"start":9699.768,"end":9712.559,"text":"其實這個加護的太陽能光電板是一個未來趨勢可是就是說到底我們在整個政策性要怎麼這個好像我們速度太慢了"},{"start":9713.583,"end":9742.444,"text":"各位報告就是剛剛我剛剛說明了說第一個小屋頂的現在的潛量比較大所以在去年底我們在行政院有做一個報告我們會來做這個獎勵的動作來鼓勵這些還沒有設置的小屋頂小屋頂的部分加速推另外透過法規法規我們修法之後就是對因為你這些其實都是你未來在整個能源政策當中其實這個才是最真實的自己自主的方式"},{"start":9743.416,"end":9758.614,"text":"是在那個屋頂新建建物的這個部分內政部已經完成草案那也有好多次的利害關係人的會議那應該在近期應該他們會提出預告的草案的一個預告這部分的相關執法由內政部負責在擬定"},{"start":9759.255,"end":9787.177,"text":"我覺得我們應該是站在一方面是鼓勵限制但不是強硬的我覺得我們是民主時代不是你我一定要強硬你怎麼做然後不怎麼做又怎麼樣我覺得應該是要朝向說我鼓勵鼓勵獎勵然後呢如果能夠大家共同加入到我們這個所謂的自給自足的所謂太陽能的一個這個綠電的行列我們可以用怎麼樣的一個幫忙的一個"},{"start":9788.197,"end":9805.303,"text":"處理我覺得這比較重要然後還有就是說你們那個潰線潰線的部分雖然這個太陽能光念這個自給自足的不需要潰線可是如果比較亮大的他還是需要潰線那潰線夠不夠有沒有跟台電去盤整"},{"start":9807.885,"end":9834.139,"text":"匯線的部分台電的台電的他們的輸配電部門其實是有做針對熱區有做相關的盤點所以在過去配合離岸風電跟太陽光電他們都有相關的加強電力網的這樣的一個計畫來提供這樣的一個匯線那至於這些小屋頂的部分都是用配電系統配電系統它如果可以的話就用並鏈線的方式處理所以我說小屋頂是OK小屋頂是OK像是說如果那個面"},{"start":9835.78,"end":9863.018,"text":"因為它的容量比較大的你就勢必一定是要有虧線那這個虧線到底夠不夠它基本上都已經被佔滿了那你在鼓勵這個部分它沒有虧線根本就沒有用我是提醒你啦在地方上可能會遇到這個所有漢格的問題沒有虧線你在做怎樣的一些光電的推動都不好沒有虧線都不好謝謝"},{"start":9866.121,"end":9866.462,"text":"請陳昌明委員"},{"start":9875.583,"end":9898.419,"text":"那個我們的游市長特別注意一下我每次坐車子都在觀察我發覺台北市新北市六都的都市裡面你們這個家戶屋頂設置的非常好大樓很多我仔細看過好像沒有看過大樓上面去設你們這個家戶型的屋頂"},{"start":9899.92,"end":9921.771,"text":"這個太陽能發電,尤其在臺北市跟新北市最多,你們都往城上去,透天室去蒸,大人也要去蒸,那都好怕人家住,你們都沒有部長,你坐車的時候,如果經過高架橋,你仔細看一下,所有屋頂幾乎都沒有裝,說到大廈,到時我們就去鄉鄉市,叫我們城市的人一直發電給你們用"},{"start":9925.829,"end":9941.911,"text":"至於像這樣的情形你去看台北市的大樓哪裡有一棟在裝太陽能的啊講得滿天都是先由都市來做示範給我們鄉下人看啊好不好"},{"start":9944.259,"end":9961.381,"text":"我剛才問的問題那個杜蘇拉沒有回答那廠發組說明一下目前在電動車的產業發展因為我們在電動車在除了電動化之後後面一個重要的是智慧化部分像我們博鳥還蠻多ICT廠商目前其實在這一塊著墨非常的深像比如說面板的廠開始往"},{"start":9961.821,"end":9984.867,"text":"像車用面板或是像智慧座艙這些機台都已經打到這些全世界車廠裡面不管是油車跟電動車他都需要這些東西所以我們也一直在支持這一項這樣的一個項目那包含像一些系統跟運行部分我們希望透過台灣這些補助啦練兵練完之後就可以到國外去不是不是你們都著重在那個ICT的部分其實我們有非常多的中小企業傳產的"},{"start":9986.868,"end":10000.441,"text":"就是汽車零件的相關業者那在這一波裡面你們也應該把它變成一個就是相關的供應鏈不然他們因為電動車有可能造成他們就是出口就減少"},{"start":10001.502,"end":10019.822,"text":"那怎麼樣子你們能夠就是說把他們也帶上去有沒有這樣子才不會讓傳產的這個汽車零組件的這些廠商你們都你們著重的都只有ICT也不對啊是不是是 報告委員我們這邊是有那個捷爾就像剛剛講智慧座艙就要捷爾以前我們做傳統座椅這樣的廠商"},{"start":10021.523,"end":10048.553,"text":"信艙全新這一些它就結合面板把它變成智慧座艙這個有出去那包含有一些傳統的一些比如說保險桿它要裝一些sensor這個地方包含aftermarket或是那個東洋我們都有協助他們跟電子廠去做結合賣到國外而且訂單都有拿到還要包含LED燈也是一樣我希望說就是經濟不可以重視這個部分就是能源處也要特別重視不要只重視半導體對於傳產的這些中小企業你們也應該要一併的重視"},{"start":10053.404,"end":10059.906,"text":"好我們現在就來處理93案到99案94案改為主決議93到99我們凍結1500萬書面報告經同意使得凍資接下來是100案到106案請說明"},{"start":10075.288,"end":10092.149,"text":"好 100案到106案這中間代委員帶有關切到有關於我們電動機車普及率偏低然後我們過去編列的石油基金補助電動機車的補助加速偏低那這部分產發署這邊有一些因應的作為待會進一步的再做說明那"},{"start":10093.05,"end":10105.978,"text":"另外在剛剛有談到的那個定制型燃料電池因為剛剛也已經有做報告定制型燃料電池目前已經技術比較成熟所以這部分我們預期未來會達到我們預期的目標那另外"},{"start":10107.113,"end":10126.257,"text":"另外在有關於這個相關的業界能專的部分我們大概也過去在執行率比較偏低的情況也是跟廠商的申請有關那我們現在也看到很多新的技術陸續的在出來所以業界能專申請的情況目前也看到都廠商都比較踴躍的申請這部分我們會來繼續的來加強推動那有關那個電動機車的部分我已經採訪署來說說明"},{"start":10131.998,"end":10154.238,"text":"那電動機車部分因為考量因為在機車部分還是以價格為因素所以我們在購車補助還有設站還有在機車場的訓練上面大概會做幾個政策上面的一個加碼像比如去年來看充電站不太夠的部分我們在我們的補助辦法裡面有提一個方案上去希望把這個補助的金額往上提升有一點像30萬提升到60萬"},{"start":10155.419,"end":10178.892,"text":"那機車補助的部分因為過往也希望因為燃油機車過往在做市場競爭他也有下個優勢所以我們在電動機車部分也用相關的太舊換金的方式還有結合像我們產源局在做開發園區的時候他有太舊換金要去那時候要抵換這些空污跟稀有度他有加碼像雲嘉南地區他就有加碼4000塊每台車的一個部分那站的那個站跟"},{"start":10179.432,"end":10201.79,"text":"那個車子講完之後那還有機車場輔導因為機車場這邊重點還是在於他的基本的維修技能那當然我們會再教他一些他們比較需要一些勞動法規或是消費者糾紛這些所謂的期款的一個部分來做一個加強讓後續如果像消費者買電動機車多包含修理或是在做尾運或在做生意是可以很大的幫忙以上說明請請議員"},{"start":10207.912,"end":10216.782,"text":"好 謝謝主席我現在要請教的是在104案現在講到104案了嗎106那個104105 對不起本人的提案跟那個10就是你們在那個"},{"start":10228.527,"end":10249.107,"text":"定製型燃料電池的這個推廣計畫裡面可不可以再更進一步說明你這個大概是都是在大型的中大型的工廠還是所謂的定製型燃料就是所謂的儲能設備它其實它是一個發電設備"},{"start":10251.69,"end":10275.658,"text":"它是一個發電設備就是說我們用這種定制型燃料電池它一般可以運用在工廠或像醫院或飯店那這種情況它可以用一個定制型燃料那我們現在比較成熟的技術比如說它可以用天然氣當作燃料之後它可以自己做發電然後同時可以產生熱水所以像飯店或是像醫院其實就很適合這一種那現在的技術比較成熟所以廠商開始"},{"start":10276.518,"end":10302.372,"text":"陸續的都有投入到所以你這個是補助給廠商還是補助給申請使用的這一些比如說醫院或者是就是他們的就由醫院或是由這個工廠他們來申請補助那我們每K瓦是經過審查他好的計劃我們每K瓦大概補助五萬到七萬那這部分會包括他的設置費以及後面的一些染料的一些染料的一些補貼的部分好OK 了解請新一份委員"},{"start":10304.259,"end":10331.845,"text":"對於國內的相關的電池的廠商那是不是大家已經有足夠的就是量能以及或者是需要到就是說現在外國呢外國有沒有缺掉的情況那不然的相關的補助對於這個我們相關的業者如果要申請的話那也是沒有辦法去協助就是會變成就是供過於求對於這些電池的部分那是不是你們對於這個相關的有做一個進一步的"},{"start":10335.698,"end":10343.228,"text":"統計您提的那個電池是講車用電池嗎還是講你們現在是機車嗎現在大家在講機車或者車用電池這個部分"},{"start":10344.073,"end":10369.822,"text":"好 那產化署說明一下 目前電池現在目前像鴻海跟台塑都有在那個高雄跟彰化都已經生產 投產大概1GW以上的電池芯了 目前我們都在沒有他跟整車廠去做 我們有像比如說中華汽車或是鴻華智捷電動巴士 通常我們拉發去車上去做測試 最快今年年底就可以看到這些有公產電池芯的車子在路上跑所以我們會去 每有整車廠跟電池廠去合作 把它的數量"},{"start":10371.323,"end":10387.678,"text":"那充電站的部分是你們做還是中友做目前是業者去做新建讓我們給他做補助剛我提到說我們本來補助30萬一座最高我們要拉到60萬我們是希望業者去做然後服務消費者好謝謝請求議員委員"},{"start":10392.22,"end":10405.35,"text":"謝謝主席我再請教一個問題就是說我們在講到那個電動車的普及率的這個部分到113年7月底為止我們的電動機車普及率大概不到4%我想請教到底電動機車"},{"start":10407.071,"end":10419.223,"text":"的推動這件事情還會還是不是政府的一個重要的推廣政策這是第一個第二個是如果是的話那對於電動機車的業者我們應該給予什麼樣的"},{"start":10424.226,"end":10452.156,"text":"輔導跟協助因為最近有一些比如說像Gogoro的經銷商啊什麼的因為車輛的銷售數急速下降導致他們在銀行的貸款的部分被抽銀根那當然銀行就會覺得說這個已經好像不是政府要主動推動的一個政策方向所以我想請教一下能源局在這一方面的布局跟整個政策面到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":10453.615,"end":10472.997,"text":"好 謝謝委員 那懲罰組這邊做一下說明 那電動機車當然是我們要持續推動的一個政策 畢竟它又是庶民經濟又可以減碳那再來是剛才提到的說 相關的機車廠他們有些困境 我們大概都有去做過盤點最重要的原因還是在於說 現在目前的換電站的數量不太夠 因為業者要投入這些換電站都需要花蠻多錢 所以"},{"start":10473.798,"end":10498.622,"text":"我們先從源頭開始補助他比較把他的那個補助的增加那第二個是說我們在相關的像購車補助的那個金額我們也試圖做一些提升那當然在機車行本身的部分除了讓他有車子可以賣之外剛才提到有些銷售跟金額銷售的一些技能跟那些技能我們都跟他做支持我們都有在跟這些車行的全聯會做一些溝通但去年跟前年狀況比較特殊是因為"},{"start":10499.162,"end":10519.046,"text":"燃油車它有一些比較促銷競爭的一個情況讓整個市場有一點電動車賣得比較不好所以這邊我們都有在做滾動式的修正把這些支持力道增加上來以上好請陳昌明委員你這邊的凍結沒意見好那我們現在開始處理100案到106案我們凍結1000萬書面報告"},{"start":10531.294,"end":10552.502,"text":"接下來是107案 請說明好 各位委員報告其實107案 楊委員關切的也是電動機車補助的加速低那我們剛剛已經做了說明是不是可以併到好 107案改成主決議 預算照列接下來是108到112案 請說明"},{"start":10556.391,"end":10573.66,"text":"好 108到112這個是有關於再生基金那再生基金這邊在這部分主要委員關切的是有關於再生能源的推廣就是我們目前的一個再生能源的一個推動佔比那我們預估到今年大概是百分之到2025年大概會達到15.2%"},{"start":10577.122,"end":10606.393,"text":"那另外委員關切的是說我們的再生能源發展不要只集中在風跟光這部分應該要做多元的發展那另外委員關切說光電案場未來如果有改建的時候應該要採用更高效率的這些光電板那這邊做一個簡要說明就有關有關於再生能源的部分但我們還是會朝向這個多元綠能的方式去推動除了既有的成熟的風跟光之外針對一些新的再生能源比如說像"},{"start":10606.813,"end":10630.532,"text":"地熱水力生殖能等等這些大概我們也都會持續的來做推動那另外像光電暗場確實他在20年到期之後他如果原地的來做一個改建的時候當然會採用當時20年後的一個最新效率的這樣的一個光電板他可以用同樣的面積可以發出更多的電力這個也是我們未來在做這個更新汰換的時候會來注意要求的那以上的說明"},{"start":10633.213,"end":10653.861,"text":"在這方面絕對是一個重要的能源政策也就是一個對的方向但是其實在執行面上面當然會出現一些問題特別是地方的執行但是我認為整個整體上面的政策能源署這邊還是要加強做說明跟溝通跟宣傳所以我要求凍結100萬提出報告我希望"},{"start":10654.481,"end":10674.614,"text":"署長這邊能夠加強宣傳不要讓一個對的政策國家對的整個政策受到汙名化或受到一些攻擊反而導致受到影響這塊希望署長還是要持續的加油端銀跟圖卡要立即能夠對社會做說明跟澄清來捍衛整個再生能源的政策的一個方向好我們來處理108案到112案凍結1000萬書面報告好接下來113到116請說明"},{"start":10688.526,"end":10702.542,"text":"113到116後面委員關切的大概有兩個三個大的部分第一個是有關於我們漁業工基金的部分目前的一個繳納的一個情況那這部分的我們跟台電公司大概已經有簽訂了相關的一個契約書我們會委託"},{"start":10704.123,"end":10720.463,"text":"台電來針對這個漁業環境公積金的部分來做一個收繳那我們在今年也會再來研究一個我們的標準作業程序看怎麼樣做會更有效率讓這個錢可以收進來之後針對這些漁電共生的場域能夠做更好的一個環境共榮"},{"start":10721.204,"end":10736.895,"text":"那第二個委員關切的大概有關於我們公民電廠的一個相關的推動以及原住民地區的一個再生能源的推動那這部分呢在我們的相關的一個浦島計畫裡面我們這樣也修改了相關的一些我們的申請辦法"},{"start":10737.856,"end":10766.151,"text":"那過去大概是採用一年一次審查的方式定期來審那我們為了要讓這一些能夠比較有彈性所以我們現在會改成用隨到隨審的方式來做處理那第二個我們大概會做一些制度上的一些調整那這個兩階段的審查的部分本來是第一階段規劃第二階段設置那設置的話一定要根據規劃的內容我們現在也同意經過規劃階段調整之後如果有一個比較符合當地的發展我們也同意他在設置階段的時候可以"},{"start":10766.491,"end":10782.607,"text":"不一定要完全按照規劃階段的這一些計畫構想來做執行那我們大概透過這樣的一個制度調整的方式我們希望能夠加快有關於公民電廠跟原住民地區來參與這個再生能源這樣的一個推動那以上做簡要的一個說明請區議員委員"},{"start":10784.912,"end":10812.883,"text":"好 謝謝主席那個 所長我可不可以請您再請您再說明一下你剛剛講到那個大概跟北市提案有關在原住民地區的再生能源設置到底他可以做什麼他要設置什麼東西那因為我看到你們這幾年來的這個執行率其實都偏低很顯然的是原住民地區的很多不管是區公所或者是原住民朋友們都不知道"},{"start":10813.883,"end":10823.059,"text":"要怎麼申請 或者是要申請什麼你在原住民地區的再生能源是要做哪一個區塊可不可以再詳細說明一下"},{"start":10826.462,"end":10855.882,"text":"好 跟委員報告原住民地區在做再生能源大概第一個光電然後第二個水利這兩個大概是在原住民地區比較可以做的那我們過去在原住民地區55個原住民地區大概有40個曾經跟我們來洽詢過或提出過申請那這部分大概我們會持續的來跟他們做相關的討論跟輔導那觸及率其實是算高的55個原住民地區大概有40個有來跟我們洽詢過那實際上的執行當然就第一階段"},{"start":10856.722,"end":10882.742,"text":"參加的比較多第一階段我們是補助一個規劃調查費用大概是兩百萬那這是作為一個規劃調查費用那要進入到實質設置的時候它就要有具體的場域比如說它要有活動中心的屋頂或是說一般的民宅的屋頂或是水域的話小水利的話它要有相關的這一些水域的水利的這些空間你那個好我現在就請教你兩個問題嘛什麼活動中心啊什麼屋頂"},{"start":10883.923,"end":10900.215,"text":"如果依照我的了解在很多原住民地區那個都是沒有始造建造的所以他跟你查詢完之後他當然什麼都不能做啊所以你說查詢的很多但是實際做的很少啊你不能用查詢數就可以當作這個執行率嘛"},{"start":10900.675,"end":10923.007,"text":"第二個水利的部分他要用水利那個山坡的這個高低差去做小水利發電那個河川也不是他管的那個河川有可能是水利署管的啊或者是有的是那個水土保持局什麼野溪啊什麼的那個也不是原住民朋友可以自己決定啊所以你這樣子算起來"},{"start":10924.128,"end":10950.346,"text":"看起來還是他的查詢完之後發現沒有一項可以做事啦所以你的執行率是很低的啊所以你們有沒有想過用其他的方式比如說你乾脆就鼓勵他家戶去做這個光電板你用那樣子的方式自己是他自己的最少是他自己的家你不要去想到什麼什麼活動中心啦什麼有的沒的"},{"start":10951.653,"end":10963.534,"text":"古時候蓋的那些活動中心根本都沒有使用執照沒有使用執照 沒有建造那根本不能去申請這些光電設施根本不能去申請再生能源的這些所有的設施"},{"start":10965.538,"end":10993.44,"text":"謝謝委員指導那確實在太陽光電的部分主要是以他們自己的加護那我們應該要達到一定規模會比較有設置誘因所以我們是說透過第一階段的整合之後如果可以有比較多的加護出來的話那這個比較會有這個相關的一個經濟規模可以來做處理也可以降低成本那確實在小水利的部分是需要跟這個河川的管理機關做協商那所以我們在署裡面這邊大概也會先做"},{"start":10993.981,"end":11002.234,"text":"做出一個小水利的一個相關的設置指引那在這個協商的過程當中我們署裡面會協助來跟其他跨機關的一些協調"},{"start":11003.649,"end":11024.887,"text":"那個我再提一下小水利的部分我覺得是不是應該要請水利署或者是水土保持署他們去做盤點有哪些地方是可以做這樣的小水利因為都是水土保持署是在農業部啦水利署是你們自己經濟部的業管單位嘛你們自己去做協調如果可以的話"},{"start":11025.828,"end":11053.454,"text":"看看是水利署來跟你們申請或者是怎麼樣去做調配你交由原住民地區的公所或者是原住民的朋友自己去申請這不可能嘛因為他還是要取得水利署的同意嘛所以這個區塊我覺得是不是他即使是在原住民區來做再生能源我認為是不是應該讓水利的主管機關去做盤點可以做的由跟你們能源局去做共同的合作來做開發"},{"start":11055.147,"end":11065.212,"text":"是 謝謝委員提醒所以這個經費我不會去給你刪減啦但是我想可能你們還需要還是是不是我把它改成主決議我還是凍結5%但是我覺得你們可能還是要經過一些"},{"start":11068.757,"end":11086.046,"text":"重新整理整個計畫內容啦好不好是 做法上我們會再來精進那過去我們當然有跟水利署跟農水署針對這個水利的部分有一些討論不過委員提醒的部分我們會加強我們雙方的聯繫讓他做得更好 謝謝是 請委員主決議就不凍結囉好"},{"start":11096.192,"end":11098.255,"text":"那我們113案到116案第114案改為主決議預算照列現在處理117到123請說明"},{"start":11115.493,"end":11143.542,"text":"主席各位好117到123是有關於中小企業發展基金的題目主要我歸納成三類那第一類是117號委員關心我們這個青年創業貸款因為我們編列的費用是提供青年創業貸款相關的利息的補貼那這個在過去以比較低的利率還有高的保證乘數還有一個簡易生態的方式來協助青年做創業所以在"},{"start":11144.942,"end":11164.31,"text":"109到111年之間政府開放這個申請的時候有承諾相關利息補貼的5年所以目前費用的編列是持續就還有4萬多家企業必須要持續來清理相關利息補貼那這個也向委員做了一個報告委員同意改凍結100萬題書面報告這是117案"},{"start":11168.112,"end":11188.643,"text":"那第二類是118 119 120 122 123以及125那委員關心的事項是中小企業相對於大企業能夠取得的這個租稅優惠比較有限那另外中小企業需要更多的研發支出的一些投入還有相關的這個整個升級轉型"},{"start":11189.703,"end":11208.091,"text":"包含他們的財務結構能力怎麼樣去提升等等所以在這方面的話我做幾點報告就是第一個也謝謝委員會的支持在去年中小企業法案條例修法通過了以後特別針對中小企業在研發支出的抵減我們持續這個延長的適用的期限還有"},{"start":11211.792,"end":11231.04,"text":"一直延長到112年年底為止並且把這個有關於過去可以作為人才培訓支出相關的這個教育訓練費用也納入投資抵減的一個範圍我們預估這樣子的一個做法在未來的10年每年還可以平均來帶動"},{"start":11233,"end":11257.326,"text":"85億元的這個研發的這個支出取得相關的乘以10就850億元的相關的一個效益那第二個是整個的這個研發投入除了這個租稅優惠抵減以外我們還有編列相關的這個小型企業創新研發的計畫這個也會結合地方政府共同來針對中小企業所需要的研發資源我們盡快的發的準確發的快"},{"start":11259.887,"end":11277.176,"text":"那第三個是在中小企業相關的數位轉型跟淨零轉型我們也持續提升那我也有關心中小企業相關的這個財務結構怎麼樣去給他優化我們也持續有相關的這些專案的計劃以及委員最關心的是不是持續的到各地像"},{"start":11279.042,"end":11295.368,"text":"中小企業來說明相關的這些輔導的計畫跟做法所以我們也是就產業別特別是在製造業我們歸納國內中小企業最主要的製造類型有金屬加工像塑膠 飾品 紡織 機械等等的"},{"start":11295.868,"end":11310.282,"text":"跟他們做相關所需要的這個說明特別是在這個流程的管理設備的維護還有這些自動化的生產等等那在財務的部分的話我們也持續結合信保基金向中小企業來說明怎麼樣去優化財務的結構"},{"start":11311.983,"end":11327.156,"text":"還有取得相關的這些優惠以及低利貸款提供中小企業所需要的資源所以在125萬呢我也同意的話呢就是改成主決議的一個方式那第三類是121跟"},{"start":11330.473,"end":11356.533,"text":"是 好 對不起那第三類是121案121有提到是有關於相關的這個育成中心的這個經營的績效所以我們也持續的強化整個培育新創事業的機制但是因為這個育成中心經營成本在電費上其他的費用可能有一些支出的增加所以我們在這方面會持續的努力強化這整個新創事業培育的績效以上報告請謝醫鳳委員"},{"start":11359.4,"end":11377.811,"text":"上次好像我們對於那個微中小型的企業你們說要到彰化來辦那個就是相關的輔導說明那好像都沒有進一步的進展是不是也應該要加速這個相關的推動那我是可以給你寓意凍結少一點你再說明一下"},{"start":11378.99,"end":11401.757,"text":"是謝謝委員有跟這個縣府還有跟彰化地區的業者來聯繫因為目前我們在下禮拜行政院有一個正式的中小微計畫的一個啟動的儀式業者也比較忙所以我們已經有規劃好在可能是要到農曆年過後我們會再去針對地區的這些產業再跟他加強這說明"},{"start":11402.777,"end":11426.746,"text":"那也除了這個中部地區以外對於南部地區還有其他的縣市我們也都有持續的排列相關的說明的計劃那另外我們對於中小企業所需要的這些問題呢經濟部包含部長我們都有持續的去做第一線的一個關心跟了解以上報告好請問陳天佩委員你的部分有簡列好改動節喔"},{"start":11434.312,"end":11437.155,"text":"好117案到123案 我們凍結1000萬好 書面報告好 接下來124案請說明"},{"start":11450.521,"end":11477.33,"text":"124案是邱委員等人所關心的也是有關於這個中小企業所能夠取得的這些租稅獎勵相較於大企業可能比較有限剛才已經報告了我們在針對中小企業能夠取得的這些研發支出的一個投資抵減我們持續來加強然後另外在中小企業所需要的這個小企業創新研發計畫的一些補助我們也盡可能盡快的審核"},{"start":11478.03,"end":11504.471,"text":"尽快的来提供另外在中小企业相关的整个的一个接班传承我们除了持续的这些培育的计划以外最重要是说由标杆企业由这些相关具有经验的这些企业主来带领让他们在传承的效果上会更好另外在财务结构上我们也持续的来协助以上是124案"},{"start":11505.612,"end":11532.91,"text":"好 124案預算照列第125案請說明那125案是編列在中小企業發展基金相關的一個行政費用這個費用的話編列主要是我們每次開會的時候相關委員的一些這個出席的費用還有整個的基金相關的這個聘僱人員相關的這些薪資還有一些辦公費用等等那這部分的話也向委員辦公室做一個報告"},{"start":11536.332,"end":11553.943,"text":"將這個中小企業發展基金的這個會議呢能夠討論的更加的深入也符合中小企業所需的這個內容我們來提供相關所需的服務所以這邊有向委員辦公室做一個報告委員辦公室能夠也有一個了解好 請楊秋英委員"},{"start":11556.11,"end":11557.312,"text":"中小企業真的錢不夠我們95%"},{"start":11573.812,"end":11597.44,"text":"的這個勞動力都在我們的中小企業所以我也跟部長討論過未來你們在編列預算我沒辦法幫你增加預算但是我非常的希望在編列預算的時候是符合時事所需千變萬化尤其現在跟以往完全不一樣的形態每一分每一秒的形態都不一樣"},{"start":11598.26,"end":11612.385,"text":"所以我語重心長的說我們現在包括我們的中小企業3K產造在基層上面是很辛苦我也很敬佩他們他們如此的辛苦還願意努力的苦撐"},{"start":11614.005,"end":11634.956,"text":"甚至有很多的中小企業到現在他們是爸爸媽媽一個阿公還是阿嬤還是一個孩子還是一個媳婦就這樣子自家人組成還維繫住這個是我超級感動早期我們到日本去我們看到他的拉麵是爸爸在煮媽媽在端"},{"start":11636.016,"end":11654.828,"text":"一個女兒在當會計我們當時覺得很奇怪怎麼可能產業會如此可是台灣很快就走向這樣子的形態現在已經有很多所以我很敬佩我們台灣人非常非常地用心他即使多困難他仍舊願意如此努力做"},{"start":11655.448,"end":11679.88,"text":"所以我提這個案也就是希望我願意改為主決議當然我要請中小企業處你如果人不夠你應該報給我們的部長因為我覺得部長來自產業他在判斷方面跟我們整個這一個產業行為是非常的可以結合這一點我是覺得因為部長在這邊我是覺得中小企業既然占95%你的人力"},{"start":11681.761,"end":11700.587,"text":"你的預算要怎麼樣去調整我覺得這個才是真正釜底抽薪的問題所以這個我改組決議但主席我有一個議題想要跟這個部長討論一下請郭部長對 部長我想跟你討論一下因為我覺得這個是非常重要的源頭也是我們在基層裡頭在講"},{"start":11702.569,"end":11715.769,"text":"現在我們所有的木工機機械類 鋼鐵 水泥也好 都列為第一類別我們現在推動ESG 我們也推動零碳的概念"},{"start":11718.252,"end":11739.552,"text":"都非常好 但是要有人去帶 有人去做所以現在我給部長說明有一個事情一定要請我們經濟部來協助就說 比如說 我不攻擊我到歐美去 我到北歐去 我的ESG他們那一國的認證 在我國所訓練我拿去是不通的"},{"start":11740.493,"end":11764.365,"text":"所以我強烈要求我們台灣人這家產業我是感動的不得了他們都跑比政府還快一家的認可大概要花兩百萬左右那這個老闆都願意花我非常的希望由政府來代政府你將我們全球五大洲他們必須認定的比如說荷蘭"},{"start":11765.821,"end":11778.076,"text":"還是這個印度印度他們認定可以認定的他這個區塊可以認定的這個認證的廠家應該是由我們政府來協助請他們來我們台灣針對這個工會給他們上課"},{"start":11784.978,"end":11811.622,"text":"讓他們知道你ESG到時候你到那個國家去你是可以通的現在我們碰到一個很大的問題公會也就是我在台灣或者是我拿東南亞的可是我拿到中東 不通可是我拿到北歐 不通所以他們還要重新重新除了花錢之外他們還要浪費時間時間對於我們廠商來講就是金錢我非常的希望"},{"start":11812.182,"end":11836.065,"text":"政府以大帶小這個概念我是很敬佩而且現在也在落實包括我們亞談神我們也是第二年我們也一直在帶有能力的廠商你自己趕快做跟政府合作做好了之後你來帶你相關的這樣子我們一年我們自己這個協會一年大概帶了36到42家左右我很高興"},{"start":11836.886,"end":11858.512,"text":"我很高興我們總是有進步但是我們現在碰到這個問題廠商比如說木工機木工機我們好不容易現在如果扣掉大陸我們是我們可以佔第一名因為他們結盟起來所以我們是第三名那我真的很希望我們很高興就是說廠商他自己去賺五大洲以前我們都在東南亞以日本為主"},{"start":11860.892,"end":11884.931,"text":"現在他整個在其他州的地方他們也努力在做可是他們碰到這個問題所以我真的很希望就是說政府應該要有這個責任跟這個義務你們來找你叫他去找印度的一個他不知道在哪裡啦你們應該去盤點五大州這些認證要怎麼樣可以跟我們台灣的廠商來結盟這樣子公會趕快"},{"start":11886.412,"end":11911.03,"text":"結合起來工會完成之後就由工會的會員去以大帶小去帶他們願意的你來市場競爭嘛我覺得這個是政府可以做的事情啊要不然他們現在喔我現在去到印度不通我還要重新在印度我到荷蘭不通我要重新在荷蘭一次下去將近十個月哇 這個廠商太辛苦了以上建言"},{"start":11913.134,"end":11923.039,"text":"謝謝委員吹詢那這一部分事實上這個經濟部有在進行我現在都每個禮拜都跟兩個工協會在討論那我們來聽他們的這個工協會裡面的"},{"start":11928.303,"end":11950.263,"text":"問題如果碰到這個國際的這個這個所謂的標準的確認我們會用這個國家的這個立場來跟對方來討論那只要我們這邊通過那麼讓對方可以認證的話希望他能夠通過我們的認證承認我們的認證這個是最快的方法這個我們現在正在進行部長我們有一點雞同鴨講"},{"start":11951.784,"end":11969.703,"text":"第一個第一個第一個也就是說我們很努力在做但是我做出來的東西當然他國願意我們好可是他國是跟世界接軌他們有他們的規格所以我本席現在所說的意思就是說我們政府應該去盤點"},{"start":11971.044,"end":11993.397,"text":"譬如說我歐盟的你要怎麼樣才可以認證如果我方的我們目前所認證不能通我們應該請歐盟的這個國家他們的認證公司來協助我們來告訴我們怎麼去申請我覺得這個很重要報告委員你想你說的跟我們在做的是一樣的事情"},{"start":11993.922,"end":12014.493,"text":"那你是說要我們的要讓他認可可是他不認可啊我們現在馬上工會就碰到很多這樣的問題他會先認可我們的認證單位我們的認證單位代理他的認證對你後面這一句要講出來你後面這一句要講出來由我們認證可以雙方協議那我們國家的立場來"},{"start":12017.955,"end":12032.961,"text":"我們會協助國內的這些中小委的企業這一點委員我非常了解你現在所垂詢的問題我們也在進行現在進行是請給我們一點時間我們趕快來做這個事情"},{"start":12035.982,"end":12051.161,"text":"你預估這個時間因為我們現在廠商有碰到我們現在在進行中那你預估大概會怎麼樣有一個時間成效比如說我們木工機馬上會碰到這個問題所以我現在所有的工隊我都跑一趟"},{"start":12051.701,"end":12076.93,"text":"那我實際了解這個問題然後它這個按照它的輕重緩急我們快速多方面結合我們國貿署然後我們再跟國外來推動聯繫再請部長到我們洋委員辦公室去說明好不好我們一個結論主席那也謝謝部長你已經看到這個要跟世界接軌政府要站的立場要怎麼協助那我覺得像我們"},{"start":12077.89,"end":12098.264,"text":"至少我們經濟委員會的委員跟產業界都很接觸我可以講出這一些也就是我們一直挺聽這個工會以及廠商的意見那我們是不是就是說我們如果有哪一個工會比較緊急的我們趕快報給部長這邊你們優先來我們都要做嘛好不好 一起加油好 謝謝"},{"start":12105.952,"end":12115.306,"text":"125案改為主決議預算照列現在處理主決議126案遵照辦理通過127案遵照辦理通過128案遵照辦理通過129案遵照辦理"},{"start":12120.253,"end":12129.639,"text":"通過130案 遵照辦理通過131案 遵照辦理通過132案 遵照辦理通過133案 遵照辦理通過134案 遵照辦理通過135案 遵照辦理通過136案 遵照辦理通過137案 遵照辦理通過"},{"start":12139.165,"end":12151.153,"text":"138 遵照辦理通過139 遵照辦理通過140 遵照辦理通過141 遵照辦理通過142 遵照辦理通過143 遵照辦理通過144 遵照辦理通過145 遵照辦理通過146 遵照辦理通過147 遵照辦理通過148 遵照辦理通過149 遵照辦理"},{"start":12168.531,"end":12187.086,"text":"現在要來處理的是核能發電後端營運基金先來處理基金來源第150案請說明150案大概是有關於後端基金因為大於台電大概2200億左右那這塊委員認為說台電目前的財務狀況風險過於集中那因為針對這一題主要是因為"},{"start":12195.493,"end":12222.259,"text":"後端基金帶給台電的這些實際上都定有一個所謂的貸款的合約而且每年都依照合約的條件我們會編列一個台電都有編列預算來償還相關的一個一個一個還本付息所以都依照合約的約定來執行所以我們是建議是不是委員讓我們能夠提書面報告以上好沒見"},{"start":12226.281,"end":12226.507,"text":"明天"},{"start":12230.235,"end":12255.345,"text":"150案預算照列第151案請說明151案主要是委員針對服務費用的話一般服務費的部分的簡列跟凍結主要是賴委員針對就是111年石門區的茂林社區它有一個自來水沿管的一個幹線跟支線的一個工程那這部分是由後端基金來帶電"},{"start":12256.545,"end":12283.001,"text":"那委員呢他是要求就是新北市負責的支線的35%的部分必須要全數返還後端基金那這一部分跟委員報告就是新北的原來負責的35%的部分大概148.6萬目前已經在去年的10月份已經全數返還給後端基金所以我們也建議看委員是不是讓我們提書面報告把相關的一個經過做一個報告請賴樂隆委員"},{"start":12285.543,"end":12301.628,"text":"好 我再勸一下所以這一筆電付的錢全部都歸還了對 新北市水利署跟新北市都歸還了水利署的還沒有但是水利署我們大概固定每半年後端基金委員會新聞給所以一直新聞 然後一直吹套"},{"start":12302.208,"end":12317.936,"text":"我再問一下核後端的基金為什麼可以做這樣的一個使用主要是因為當時石門區的茂林社區它原來沒有自來水所以它的用水實際上都是核一廠在營運期間的儲礦水就是經過儲礦的乾淨的水打"},{"start":12322.915,"end":12338.063,"text":"打水打到茂林社區使用那可是因為合一場進入除以後他原來的那個設備打水的那個設備的區域我必須要來蓋所謂的室內乾除所以後來就把那個設備都拆除掉了"},{"start":12338.783,"end":12358.423,"text":"所以基本上當時是在經濟部大概協調之下後來我們就先由後端基金來帶電我再提一次我認為這個還是非常的不恰當核厚基金就應該做在核厚的事項上費用不應該當作一個小金庫來可以挪來挪去做使用那當時為什麼會有這樣的一個決策而同意來動用這筆錢"},{"start":12359.944,"end":12385.652,"text":"即使現在帶電有的時間是不還的啦好朋友現在追討有在追討回來但是一樣是不妥的我認為一樣不妥經濟部跟核貨基金都不應該把這個當小金庫來濫用所以我認為該追究責任還是要追究那另外一次我還是要求要凍結提出一個完整的說明報告給經濟委員會這樣的事情不應該再發生核貨端的基金就應該用在核貨端"},{"start":12386.152,"end":12403.702,"text":"沒有 如果這樣的理由可用的話那成小金庫每個都可以當理由來用這絕不能夠把它當作是一個回饋或當作是一個地方的一個敦青木林做使用這絕對不妥甚至於去帶電作為政府該做的事務不管是地方政府或中央政府該做的事務"},{"start":12404.503,"end":12420.703,"text":"這個都是濫用都是逾越了核候基金該用的範圍我還是要予以強力的譴責這樣的用法同時我要求必須要追究真相同時另外對於這個部分我要求凍結來做後續的完整的報告所以檢列部分不用了改凍結"},{"start":12423.26,"end":12432.148,"text":"檢列的部分我還是要照檢列啦等你把水利所有的錢追討回來再說你沒有追討回來表示你的錢太多嘛錢太多才會濫用這樣一個狀況我一樣要求檢列10%凍結10%"},{"start":12435.487,"end":12452.788,"text":"各位委員報告一下主要是現在的那個一般的服務費用目前來講像今年大概變了21.9億可是他其實有21.2億是用在合一合二合三除以後的一個人事的費用還有蘭嶼跟台東金門"},{"start":12453.168,"end":12482.737,"text":"好啦 我就比較簡略 我凍結10%但是我要求你要把這個身相查清楚另外未來絕對不能夠再同意這樣的使用跟核後無關的絕對不能再動用是是 遵照辦理請陽瓊議委員是不是讓我們凍結然後再那個他已經跟你說了 你沒聽清楚來 這個 那你要的回來嗎我們是有信心啦 因為我們有給台水有給台水 那其實它今年原來是有編譽的你編譽法本來就要 那為什麼不編呢"},{"start":12484.516,"end":12498.316,"text":"我們今天立法院第一層在經濟委員會審查預算我們都要負責任的我們給你們預算然後你嫌太多然後就給人家如果沒有人看那也不想去要"},{"start":12499.755,"end":12515.916,"text":"不要只有告訴我們說我們真的是中央政府啊反正中央政府都是中央政府的啊不能這樣子吧我們是依法嘛你們所謂的有信心你怎麼讓我們有信心你已經本來他今年要編可是預算上面我沒看到啊"},{"start":12517.677,"end":12546.242,"text":"那什麼叫做有信心 你今天如果預算上沒有看到我說有信心就跟剛剛播出郭部長一樣我們剛開始雞同鴨講 最後答案是一致的方向是一致 我很高興我們一起來協助我們的產業可是你不要隨便打打今年預算看不到然後你告訴我們有信心這個信心是要怎麼論定怎麼辦 你告訴我們方法啊就是已經"},{"start":12548.174,"end":12558.253,"text":"立法院通過的預算那你只要告訴我們有信心 那也沒有預算啊那這個信心是什麼"},{"start":12560.083,"end":12580.559,"text":"沒有 要怎麼樣回來 我只要了解因為我經常 本席經常在立法院我們先不論說金額而是制度面的問題大家都很了解本席的個性我覺得我們就是要依法好好去做你們公務人員太辛苦了不可以這樣子"},{"start":12581.68,"end":12601.781,"text":"隨便一個指令下來你們就蓋個章就過去那我們立法院根本就不要審啊你們就中央總預算三兆多就自己自行運資啊不可能這樣吧不可能這樣子所以我再聽聽因為為什麼我一定要趕回來審查這個預算因為我昨天還跟部長討論"},{"start":12603.464,"end":12629.103,"text":"核會不會用三大原則大家都同意啊這個核後可以處理啊就可以用核欸昨天三大原則是如此欸那現在怎麼辦現在怎麼辦告訴我們怎麼要回來好嗎是 這個是不是讓我們再提一個書面報告我們再研擬一個方式去把它那個你在心中有沒有方案腦中有沒有方案他不理你嘛他不編啊"},{"start":12632.679,"end":12640.224,"text":"你如果依照用這樣子啊 就等我說的啊 反正我中央預算啊不管基金公務預算啊 通通都可以挪啊部長 不可以這樣子啦怎麼辦你以前的方法 給他一張文 他不理你不編 那現在你怎麼辦"},{"start":12655.458,"end":12671.465,"text":"我來補充一下啦我比較擔心西北市政府已經不同了那經濟部想一下我相信部長可以妥善處理好不好就是內部該緩的就緩啦這個水利署台水該緩的就緩好不好好謝謝好我來處理啦我先來處理151案我們凍結2億書面報告等到錢要回來才得以解凍好"},{"start":12687.042,"end":12713.718,"text":"我是這樣講啦 因為他的預算喔 我們都很詳細看啦他的預算21.9億當中啦 他有21.1億多是人事費用我是覺得這個我們不要動他啦反正也是書面 但是我覺得我們還是要有所本所以我是建議我們提案人啦就是說我們的應該是凍結八千萬然後提書面 那重點你錢要給我 要回來啦"},{"start":12714.498,"end":12716.719,"text":"151案凍結2億書面報告好 接下來152到156案是當然"},{"start":12738.158,"end":12763.913,"text":"是 遵照辦理好 152到156主要是針對蘭嶼的這一塊就是地方私信廢棄物的這個儲存那委員主要有 主要規則大概有三個意見大概是針對蘭嶼這個廢料這個遷出的這一塊還有一個土地層出的問題還有一些監察院在去年3月提出的一個糾正案沒有落極三級平保的這些議題"},{"start":12765.185,"end":12782.632,"text":"那有關於蘭嶼遷出的這個議題目前來講我們今年其實上有編列的預算大概1.9億所謂的土地的這個補償金的部分大概是依據原住民保留地損失補償要點那這個在今年的預算大概都會有編另外有關於"},{"start":12786.033,"end":12802.393,"text":"等我後面的所謂的藍宇的這個簽書主要牽扯到所謂的低放射性廢棄物的這個最終處置的部分那經濟部也已經成立了所謂的一個廢料的處理處置的一個專案辦公室"},{"start":12804.215,"end":12819.437,"text":"所以今年來講我們當然會積極努力的去把它能夠把相關的一些立法還有一些社會的溝通去把它做好那這一塊來講我們希望也是讓委員能夠讓我們提出書面報告好 請待任委員"},{"start":12827.369,"end":12840.058,"text":"好這個部分我還是希望因為蘭嶼的部分持續的其實一直都沒有辦法達成共識那其實也看不到到底具體成效結果怎樣所以我是建議結立500萬 共結1000萬等這個書面報告再行解凍好我們"},{"start":12850.731,"end":12851.912,"text":"152案到156案我們就簡列500萬 凍結1000萬 書面報告接下來157案到163案 請說明好"},{"start":12863.958,"end":12890.378,"text":"157到163案主要是針對於低放射性廢棄物的這個最終處置的部分那委員關切的議題主要是對於就是低放的最終處置的這個選址作業在2012以後選定台東達人跟金門烏丘以後在10年沒有進展那另外有關於中期儲存的這個應變方案邱穎也提到說邱穎委員有提到說沒有一個定案"},{"start":12891.238,"end":12911.945,"text":"那這一塊來講的部分我剛才前面已經有提到就是說經濟部我們已經成立了所謂的一個專案辦公室積極來推動相關這個選址條例的這個修法跟立法包括公投的一個應變的一個補救的一個辦法但目前來講在今年來講我們積極來推動大概以上請內陸董委員"},{"start":12919.558,"end":12947.794,"text":"這個一樣齁 這個最終處置的部分其實處理很久一樣都沒有成效啦齁 所以我具體簡列了這個300萬 那另外1847萬部分我凍結順便報告再請解凍請請委員來 我請教一下齁這個你們河後端的最終處置計畫經過了這麼多年到底要放在哪裡"},{"start":12948.888,"end":12975.618,"text":"可以放在哪裡會放在哪裡能不能清楚說明你不要說這個什麼修法啦然後還在研議啦什麼因為現在一堆人在要求核四要重啟那前面的我們的這些核廢料可以放在哪裡最終能放在哪裡會放在哪裡都不知道那現在要求核四要重啟的人他要不要也先去考量到說"},{"start":12976.818,"end":13000.936,"text":"那之後的核廢料要放在哪裡 會放在哪裡 可以放在哪裡要放在他家隔壁嗎所以我們每一年都在討論這個問題啊每一年都編列預算啊 每一年都在研究啊那你們可不可以告訴我們 這個要到底 你們要怎麼處理其實在 等一下 楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":13003.924,"end":13026.22,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊玉發言楊瓊玉是162案其實我們提案委員包括我個人我覺得一個有為的政府你應該編列預算出來就是表示你有所本你要做這個事情而不是完全有所本而不做這個事情"},{"start":13027.789,"end":13041.145,"text":"現在我剛剛一開頭說了訊息萬變以往大家認為核四很危險現在全世界各國多數認為核四安全核四又是最低的未來有很多"},{"start":13042.512,"end":13055.748,"text":"能源的來源大家也提出了很多的質疑這個就是民主的真諦各方提出意見大家共同來討論而且所有的不管是在產學訓裡頭尤其是產"},{"start":13058.03,"end":13079.944,"text":"學方面很多的發明家他們不斷的去推陳出新未來會怎麼樣我們不知道但是我覺得政府必須要跟世界來接軌但是我們現在編列的這個預算跟何時要不要重啟似乎也不是那麼相關目的是在什麼你現在的要怎麼處理"},{"start":13081.445,"end":13108.263,"text":"你已經十年選定的那個地方沒通沒有一個政府說選定的一個地方十年溝通不來你還認定在那裡不可能的事情啦我舉一個例子就像我們台中的屠宰場每一屆三屆的市長都到哪裡都罵最後我們盧市長想了一個方法怎麼樣去團結和諧去結盟我們就解決了這個問題啊"},{"start":13110.157,"end":13128.707,"text":"所以我認為不是每一年的預算固定這樣子我今天即使不簡略給你改動一下提書面報告你們如果一樣態度還是一樣以十年前的態度那十年前不是你啦那趕快叫抄又拿來那白浪費我們在這裡開會啦"},{"start":13130.803,"end":13155.851,"text":"對不對 所以我仍舊真的我非常的希望我仍舊非常的希望你們必須要提出方法 該當會贏的要怎麼做 該當不贏的也要改變方法我想部長你可以認同這樣的論點吧十來年都一樣我們笑的 不可以這樣子嘛我們也對不起民眾啊 對不對所以這個"},{"start":13159.027,"end":13182.616,"text":"這個162案本席的提案我可以改為主決議但是我真的非常的希望你們該當去研判你現在鎖定的地方到底會通還不通啦不通你自己想想看要怎麼做不可以不通常常定在那明年再來還是一樣那個位置這我們沒辦法接受嘛好不好是好我們現在處理157案到163案"},{"start":13186.889,"end":13187.61,"text":"162案改為主決議 前列300萬 凍結1000萬書面報告"},{"start":13195.834,"end":13219.605,"text":"接下來164案到166案 請說明好 164到166案主要是針對於用過核子燃料的儲存就是所謂目前乾式的儲存 室內室外的乾式的儲存那委員針對這部分大概就是過去這幾年來因為一些發包不順利 所以執行率偏低的問題但是我要跟委員報告的是"},{"start":13220.505,"end":13240.753,"text":"核一廠的室外的乾除我們現在已經完成了所有的試運轉測試目前來講大概這個月的20號我們會跟核安會申請實用製造所以大概陸陸續續大概在今年如果實用製造拿到以後核一廠反應爐的燃料大概就可以全數移出"},{"start":13241.673,"end":13265.774,"text":"那核二的室外乾除我們也在去年的12月30日已經動工了我們估計大概兩年後核二廠的反應爐用過核子燃料也可以把它全數再移出所以過去執行率偏低的問題我想今年來講我們應該會整個大幅的改善所以這部分還希望委員的部分讓我們能夠提書面報告然後來動之這樣子"},{"start":13271.291,"end":13275.658,"text":"好164案到166案用書面報告預算照列167案到171案請說明好"},{"start":13285.803,"end":13301.21,"text":"167到171主要是針對用過核子燃料最終處置的部分這其實剛才很多委員都有指教有關於整個高方立法還有選址多年推動不順利的這一塊那我講的就是說因為最終處置這部分其實上是專業的議題"},{"start":13303.142,"end":13319.414,"text":"因為在選址條例未來在規劃裡面包括人口密度的問題包括地址條件的問題實際上這是非常很專業的議題那現在未來我們如果在專案辦公室底下呢我們會成立了所謂的專家的平台然後透過公聽會跟意見所謂的"},{"start":13321.795,"end":13346.785,"text":"意見交流的方式然後去把這個案子的去把它積極的推動不管未來何能何能不論你是發電或是未來不發電那最終處置的這一塊一定要積極來推動這也是我們所有正在世代爭議裡面必須要積極來執行的部分所以我們也希望說這一塊是不是委員讓我們提書面報告後動之請 請委員"},{"start":13348.826,"end":13361.07,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我沒有意見我就改組決議好 那請邱志偉委員既然邱委員都這麼說 我也改組決議所以169 170是改組決議好 那現在167案到171案169案 170案改成組決議 預算照列"},{"start":13373.719,"end":13375.76,"text":"接下來是172到173請說明172到173主要是現在合一合二及未來今年開始合三的有關於廚藝計畫的一個費用的部分那這部分來講"},{"start":13390.67,"end":13409.466,"text":"主要預算大概總共包括他的服務費用委員關切的大概就是服務費用的這一塊那服務費用的這一塊主要剛才有提到服務費用裡面有一般服務的費用大概就是21.2億用在人事的成本人事的成本這一塊也希望委員能夠來支持以上"},{"start":13409.906,"end":13411.768,"text":"172案到173案預算照列接下來是174到176案請說明174到175案裡面的委員"},{"start":13424.952,"end":13451.053,"text":"174 174到176對不起174到176主要委員的關切的議題主要是認為說一樣就是前面的一些高放的一些推動低放的處置的一些推動不順所以針對於所謂的這個這個這個管理的行政管理的這一部分呢必須要檢列跟凍結的部分那個好請 請這位委員請這位委員只有我在啊我這個改組決議預算照例吧好是"},{"start":13451.886,"end":13453.809,"text":"好174案到176案第175案改為主決議預算照列接下來來處理主決議177案遵照辦理通過"},{"start":13471.735,"end":13492.512,"text":"這個部長在這裡我當然尊重大家討論的結果但是我有一點想要跟部長分享因為部長你來自產業我真的對你期望很高因為你看到這一筆預算你如果本來就是在行政部門你看不出來但是你來自產業第一個"},{"start":13493.57,"end":13521.825,"text":"我們編列的預算十年沒有辦法做還是維持在那個地方第二個方法我們十幾年來二十幾年來還是這個方法但是我們現在已經有一個資訊全世界對於核的概念是不一樣概念之所以會不一樣表示它的生產出它最後的處理之一定有它整套的不一樣才會在世界來風行"},{"start":13523.206,"end":13548.722,"text":"那我們要怎麼樣跟他們去對接這個是我覺得部長你絕對有這個能力可以去做這個事情這個才能夠幫助我們所有的行政部門今天這個預算今天這個預算是基金的今天這個預算假設是公務預算每一年比如說水利追口一次三四十億它不行它公務預算變成那邊"},{"start":13550.263,"end":13572.103,"text":"這樣坦白他希望我們刪因為會影響到他的績效我不希望如此但是我覺得已經有我等等等等到最近這一兩年大家對於這個核的概念已經轉彎的時候我們要怎麼樣世界各國比如德國日本什麼美國哪一國都好只要人家有可以處理我們有沒有主動"},{"start":13572.984,"end":13591.532,"text":"去連結這個方向我們才能夠真正去解決這個問題啊以上建言謝謝委員這部分我們經濟部自己有在處理我們有在學習我們的國貿署都有在跟國外的這一些這個"},{"start":13593.633,"end":13593.873,"text":"現在請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":13616.069,"end":13641.754,"text":"第一案 增列五百萬元第二案改為主決議 第三案照案通過增列五百萬元 第四案凍結五百萬元提出書面報告後 使得凍資 第五案凍結兩百萬元提出書面報告後 使得凍資第六案預算照列第七案照案通過第八案改為主決議 第九案照案通過第十案"},{"start":13643.11,"end":13671.116,"text":"預算照列本案改為主決議第十一案十二案凍結兩百萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第十三案凍結一千萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第十四案十五案預算照列第十五案改為主決議主決議部分第十六案到十八案照案通過十九案二十案修正通過二十一案到三十案照案通過三十一案修正通過"},{"start":13672.196,"end":13685.865,"text":"水資源部分第32案 照案通過增列500萬元第33案預算照列 第34案預算照列本案改為主決議第35至44案 銷貨成本凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":13690.268,"end":13710.514,"text":"其中38案到41案及44案均改為主決議第45案預算照列本案改為主決議第46至50案預算照列其中第47至49案均改為主決議第51案預算照列本案改為主決議 主決議部分"},{"start":13712.044,"end":13725.409,"text":"52案到60案均照案通過 61案修正通過經濟特授部分第62案到74案貿易推廣工作計畫凍結1億元提出書面報告後使得凍資其中第67案73案均改為主決議第75至77案凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資"},{"start":13736.312,"end":13750.983,"text":"第78至89案 能源研究發展工作計畫凍結500萬元提出書面報告後 使得動之其中第80案 86案 89案均改為主決議第90案至92案 參考90案凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後 使得動之第93案至99案參考第93案 凍結1500萬元提出書面報告"},{"start":13763.272,"end":13774.879,"text":"經同意後始的動之其中第94案改為主決議第100至106案參考100案凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後始的動之第107案預算照列本案改為主決議第108案至112案再生能源推廣計畫凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後始的動之第113案到116案"},{"start":13790.729,"end":13795.691,"text":"預算照列其中114案改為主決議第117案到123案中橋企業發展計畫凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第124案預算照列第125案預算照列本案改為主決議"},{"start":13809.157,"end":13818.284,"text":"主決議部分自126案到149案均照案通過和後端第150案預算照列第151案凍結2億元提出書面報告後時的凍資第152案至156案"},{"start":13826.469,"end":13830.775,"text":"簡列低放射性廢棄物處理及儲存計畫500萬元令凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後10日動之第157案到163案簡列低放射性廢棄物最終儲存"},{"start":13842.148,"end":13848.372,"text":"第164至166案預算照列第167至171案預算照列其中169案、170案均改為主決議第172案、173案預算照列第173到176案預算照列其中175案改為主決議主決議部分177案照案通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":13877.873,"end":13897.652,"text":"請問各位同仁有委員提案的部分照剛才宣讀的協商結論通過在沒有提案的部分均照列或者是隨同調整請問有無異議好沒有異議通過本次通過之決議文字授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":13901.489,"end":13928.944,"text":"今天我們審理了可以請非營業基金相關人員先離開那我們下午休息到下午一點繼續來做審查是修正的吧新的還是修正的修正的修正您簽名簽名就可以"},{"start":13933.309,"end":13936.232,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":13951.03,"end":13954.533,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的餐廳。這間餐廳有很多不同的餐廳。"},{"start":13975.489,"end":13976.869,"text":"那你要不要拿兩片?"},{"start":14010.823,"end":14010.963,"text":"好,謝謝記者"},{"start":14035.307,"end":14036.828,"text":"這裏面就是蒙太奇,居上鋪的山"},{"start":14058.277,"end":14060.539,"text":"全部都是動物動物動物動物動物動物動物動物動物"},{"start":14089.115,"end":14105.687,"text":"這個就是主要的主題應該是這樣寫的這個是不是前面沒有是上一集然後是在這個數字上面沒有還是這邊沒有我覺得原本這樣子寫然後再改主題這邊改主題按改主題沒有再來再來就是"},{"start":14117.655,"end":14118.356,"text":"這裏是一間餐廳這裏是餐廳"},{"start":14147.095,"end":14151.058,"text":"這個應該是樹的,應該是這棵樹的。不要,不要給我帶去。"},{"start":14168.875,"end":14174.578,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":14193.217,"end":14220.657,"text":"對謝謝"},{"start":14223.2,"end":14229.265,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的食物"},{"start":14238.038,"end":14259.354,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的餐廳。這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的餐廳。"},{"start":14276.267,"end":14288.6,"text":"這裏有個大廈,有個廟宇"},{"start":14300.043,"end":14306.266,"text":"這裏面是一間餐廳"},{"start":14320.433,"end":14323.374,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":14357.978,"end":14384.785,"text":"這邊是火營,那是?對,在這邊擺"},{"start":14387.443,"end":14392.544,"text":"其實他們這個氣氛絕對不太好。你給什麼?你給什麼?"},{"start":14418.469,"end":14443.237,"text":"這裏有很多不同的雕塑物,有很多不同的雕塑物"},{"start":14454.066,"end":14477.187,"text":"哦哦哦哦"},{"start":14491.977,"end":14497.319,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":14510.577,"end":14524.561,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":14548.523,"end":14549.263,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":14574.497,"end":14592.447,"text":"這裏有個小小的小小的"},{"start":14601.621,"end":14606.022,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":14626.459,"end":14628.92,"text":"蜂蜜"},{"start":14664.149,"end":14664.169,"text":"蝦仁"},{"start":14678.33,"end":14679.431,"text":"要換重點"},{"start":14705.958,"end":14718.664,"text":"好漂亮喔"},{"start":14722.023,"end":14738.297,"text":"這裏是大廈的大廈"},{"start":14743.507,"end":14765.754,"text":"他不遇見"},{"start":14844.695,"end":14850.156,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":14864.687,"end":14879.955,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":14973.183,"end":14973.203,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":15011.054,"end":15011.074,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":15045.179,"end":15047.887,"text":"感谢您的观看"},{"start":15094.944,"end":15102.511,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":15117.352,"end":15118.694,"text":"鸡蛋糕"},{"start":15131.226,"end":15145.89,"text":"那孩子就叫他帶我去買,後來他就說,那個兒子,他說太可愛了,說你比我孩子還要可愛。可是我覺得還好。他小嘛,他才來找我喝茶,他小來問我小一點,我就簡單講話。"},{"start":15163.437,"end":15173.139,"text":"中間我們會有的車我都不怕我交換錢給他他會想上街線現在你能把那個拿出來因為我覺得我沒有太多錢所以中間你不怕你拿不太多我會等你到飛機站前面就行我有帶的啦 已經有帶了幾個了"},{"start":15189.787,"end":15214.514,"text":"這個...這個..."},{"start":15214.514,"end":15237.159,"text":"對,對,對"},{"start":15241.734,"end":15244.675,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":15267.021,"end":15270.622,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":15298.937,"end":15300.018,"text":"這裏是一間餐廳"},{"start":15312.914,"end":15336.114,"text":"這個位置原來是一個內陸家族的地方所以說這個地方就有很多不同的地方所以說這個地方就有很多不同的地方所以說這個地方就有很多不同的地方所以說這個地方就有很多不同的地方所以說這個地方就有很多不同的地方"},{"start":15341.538,"end":15351.565,"text":"中文字幕 李宗盛"},{"start":15358.91,"end":15361.231,"text":"哈哈哈哈"},{"start":15378.36,"end":15385.108,"text":"現有的,就不要亂講,就不關你的事。我們就是這一點,生活才是最重要的。對,對。"},{"start":15396.886,"end":15419.507,"text":"請在身邊的朋友和朋友一起分享一下疫情暢通健康的話題的情緒和感染症狀的問題這個不會是最難的因為您會有小朋友跟著你一起去訪問人家有什麼感染症的方式可以幫助您解決這個問題在身邊的朋友和朋友跟著你一起去訪問人家有什麼感染症的方式"},{"start":15438.77,"end":15448.855,"text":"這張照片的主要目的就是為了保護自己的身體和身體的健康。這張照片的主要目的是為了保護自己的身體和身體的健康。"},{"start":15450.782,"end":15451.463,"text":"這裏是大廈的廟宇"},{"start":15465.908,"end":15468.591,"text":"這裏是大廈的一間餐廳"},{"start":15491.732,"end":15508.481,"text":"新的豆瓣三館,一斤三餅三百三十塊"},{"start":15516.101,"end":15517.021,"text":"這個叫什麼?這個叫什麼?這個叫什麼?"},{"start":15547.073,"end":15567.058,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":15584.832,"end":15587.675,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":15601.135,"end":15613.566,"text":"這張照片是在2012年10月1日拍攝的"},{"start":15632.504,"end":15633.126,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":15636.92,"end":15637.62,"text":"這裏面就是開發的地方,就是用的地方。這裏面就是開發的地方,就是用的地方。"},{"start":15690.224,"end":15690.244,"text":"謝謝觀看"},{"start":15708.874,"end":15711.255,"text":"在這裏面,我們可以看見有幾個大廈的建築物。"},{"start":15736.977,"end":15737.137,"text":"对吧"},{"start":15751.889,"end":15767.595,"text":"所以這時候加一層布 放出來"},{"start":15787.803,"end":15789.104,"text":"後面那個620,625,625,625,625,625,625,625,625,625"},{"start":15811.683,"end":15836.574,"text":"這個要動腰 改動腰肌 要動腰肌 要動腰肌 要動腰肌要動腰肌 要動腰肌"},{"start":15840.183,"end":15840.523,"text":"這裏面有一個大廈,是一個大廈"},{"start":15859.2,"end":15866.228,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":15890.092,"end":15892.913,"text":"三個字就三個字三個字就三個字"},{"start":15922.179,"end":15922.199,"text":"嗨!"},{"start":15946.084,"end":15949.187,"text":"倒數第二盤 最後三盤"},{"start":15987.127,"end":15990.627,"text":"這裏是大廈的廟宇"},{"start":16017.383,"end":16033.751,"text":"好,我們來看一張照片"},{"start":16044.822,"end":16046.924,"text":"這個都已經有了"},{"start":16072.956,"end":16094.283,"text":"這裏有一個大廈的廚房"},{"start":16100.995,"end":16114.144,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨栋梁"},{"start":16129.988,"end":16139.534,"text":"這裏有個大廈,有個大廈"},{"start":16163.706,"end":16164.607,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見"},{"start":16270.145,"end":16271.832,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":16388.749,"end":16390.483,"text":"我們現在要去哪裡呢"},{"start":16489.521,"end":16489.541,"text":"好"},{"start":16505.589,"end":16508.615,"text":"可以給大家介紹一下的經驗和方法"},{"start":16552.617,"end":16552.938,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":16596.564,"end":16597.368,"text":"我先喝一杯水"},{"start":16637.253,"end":16654.939,"text":"這裏是大廈的大廈"},{"start":16676.293,"end":16676.613,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":16712.449,"end":16718.195,"text":"謝謝大家的收看"},{"start":16764.757,"end":16766.238,"text":"這裏面的職政黨的都不在場"},{"start":16773.328,"end":16773.608,"text":"最貼心的"},{"start":16800.682,"end":16804.212,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":16845.941,"end":16867.23,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":16885.035,"end":16907.562,"text":"今天投資不動彈的,你的投資,我們台中的投資都不動彈。我們都這樣,是吧?你都去投資。今天投資不動彈的,你看看投資,投資到哪裡都沒有了。我們台中的投資都沒有了。"},{"start":16909.418,"end":16909.979,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":16941.876,"end":16945.16,"text":"嗯嗯"},{"start":16967.832,"end":16975.118,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":16977.814,"end":17000.38,"text":"可以融合在一起嗎?可以融合在一起嗎?可以融合在一起嗎?可以融合在一起嗎?可以融合在一起嗎?可以融合在一起嗎?可以融合在一起嗎?可以融合在一起嗎?可以融合在一起嗎?可以融合在一起嗎?"},{"start":17006.996,"end":17016.262,"text":"唯一比较成果色的那一种是,把眼睛换掉,顶起来的话,就有这样的,然后你能够让它温定,就没有这样的肚臍了。"},{"start":17019.053,"end":17046.305,"text":"謝謝,謝謝。"},{"start":17048.672,"end":17067.747,"text":"好,可以看嗎?可以看嗎?可以看嗎?可以看嗎?可以看嗎?"},{"start":17075.948,"end":17081.151,"text":"葉梅養豬場的開放參觀葉梅養豬場的開放參觀葉梅養豬場的開放參觀葉梅養豬場的開放參觀葉梅養豬場的開放參觀葉梅養豬場的開放參觀葉梅養豬場的開放參觀葉梅養豬場的開放參觀"},{"start":17119.552,"end":17121.013,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":17138.235,"end":17159.516,"text":"我們繼續開會 現在進行台灣糖業股份有限公司的協商我們先處理業務計畫 第一案請說明檢要 因為你們都已經溝通過 檢要說明就好了"},{"start":17160.27,"end":17168.019,"text":"董事長你可以說台語沒關係你可以說葡萄圍沒關係說葡萄圍齁我都聽得到啦謝謝 謝謝我可以我來講的好 也可以我聽 跟湯姚你這個講給阿發沒關係沒關係 沒關係 沒關係好 羅氏如麻 沒關係 沒關係好 沒關係 沒關係齁"},{"start":17181.832,"end":17209.74,"text":"第一個就是因為汐止4月部循環豬場改建案一定在今年完成所以下面很多養殖場的那個豬尿袋處理會用沼渣等處理所以拜託委員能夠美麗動輒好主席好那第一案我們就預算照列好那處理第二案到第七案請說明因為我們香港重視公安安全防護器具以及消防設備的改善"},{"start":17210.62,"end":17237.673,"text":"等信任會用所以這個就列在這幾個都是在這個部分謝謝好請出座委員來多年三百萬啊對啊提出書面報告好安全很重要好多年三百萬提出書面報告那第二案到第七案凍結三百萬書面報告好第八案請說明因為充電樁進度落後本年度會趕上那這個希望能夠"},{"start":17238.789,"end":17259.95,"text":"委員能夠同意改正書面報告 謝謝好 那第八案預算照列 第九案請說明我們的費用已經比七年度多了4800萬請委員能夠免禮增累 謝謝好 第九案沒有"},{"start":17264.79,"end":17293.485,"text":"我們送書面資料那如果說不用增列是更好啦 謝謝不是 你有跟邱議員委員溝通過了嗎沒有他如果同意的話請他簽個名這樣子好好 照列 照列 謝謝好 第九案我們就不增列了預算照列第十案請說明那我們這個部分喔那個我們以委員溝通過啦那委員希望增列五百萬"},{"start":17294.872,"end":17322.739,"text":"好 你那個改成為增列500萬的話請你把簽名送上來喔我們已經簽名了 謝謝請行政人員你這個有跟委員溝通的不管是改組決議或者是有修改的動結數的話都要事先送過來好 第10案第10案增列500萬好 謝謝第11案請說明也是一樣那個充電段的事情那我們跟委員已經簽名就改成組決議 謝謝"},{"start":17324.346,"end":17326.294,"text":"好 第十一案預算照列改組決議"},{"start":17328.171,"end":17357.081,"text":"第12案請說明因為我們土地主株不授所以要針對糧液災害很有困難希望委員能夠免以針對改成書面報告12案因為土地不能用主株不授所以這針對就不針對了預算照列第13案請說明是充電樁的那個進度那我們今年會改善希望"},{"start":17363.329,"end":17378.605,"text":"請問楊全英委員你這個充電樁我也覺得很奇怪很大半的讓你們去處理但是你們的進度都拿不起來這個原因是什麼是你們自方的原因還是他方的原因不是"},{"start":17379.437,"end":17400.137,"text":"那個喔 相關的因為我們要申請啊要核准我們是保護人家做啦 啊他在做的時候他就要經過通過 啊去請 要給他代電 申請當然要依法啊 啊別人也一樣這樣在做啊 你這樣子的理由不成理由啊當然是要 不可能你的人自己代電 自己去找啊"},{"start":17401.678,"end":17427.396,"text":"對不對 你要外包給人家 然後他要依照法程序去申請嘛 台電申請嘛對阿你今天是台藤公司 這樣還會延宕 阿你如果一般的背信不再要求對不對 怎麼會政府應該是帶頭作用阿本席的意見是這樣子阿 為什麼你看前面幾個案子也都是一樣你說你告訴我說要追上 你怎麼追"},{"start":17428.484,"end":17433.336,"text":"大概我們有跟廠商達到說今年應該會全部把他追上我們的進度"},{"start":17434.81,"end":17462.742,"text":"那今年會應當他有什麼特別的方案嗎對不對廠商不變啊請說明我跟委員說明我們有兩個方案第一個就是說我們成立那個國營事業的一個充電樁的一個群組那所以我們跟台電公司就是說我們廠商如果已經準備好了我們就會在那群組上跟台電公司取得聯繫掛件之後的預審等等就是會"},{"start":17464.763,"end":17475.733,"text":"跟台電公司會有直接的一個聯繫那第二個部分就是說之前會比較嚴當的原因就是說廠商他要提出這個志願性產品檢驗的一個證明"},{"start":17478.695,"end":17483.439,"text":"很多的廠商都在這邊卡關所以我們後續就是說我們對於得標廠商他剛開始在規劃的時候我們就主動提出整個他要興建過程的這個流程圖給這個提供給他廠商然後還有就是說哪邊哪邊會之前的經驗會卡關的部分我們都已經有把這個經驗你們有再檢討請問現在執行多少"},{"start":17503.524,"end":17511.79,"text":"我們到今年底是要有96隻那我們現在那實際是68隻那我們在明年的話我們會全部就是我們到明年是會到106隻我們到明年底我們在今年底我們到106都會把它完成那我剛剛報告的是113年底是68我們完成了68隻那計畫目標是96隻這樣子"},{"start":17531.354,"end":17547.444,"text":"我聽到行政部門 當然大家都辛苦啦但是我覺得人家民間在做事情必定要很積極你剛才說成立一個群組我們現在隨便一條水溝要做我們就是得標的廠商跟里長"},{"start":17550.225,"end":17576.473,"text":"那個發包單位就是一個群組對不對 我們到現在才改變這個方法 難怪你會延宕那麼久啊這樣不對啊所以一定要積極啦 為了要積極你們也延宕這麼久 那個13案我建議主席我們凍結3000萬報告後你們的方案使得動之好 謝謝 好 我們的營業總支出的第13案凍結3000萬書面報告"},{"start":17582.008,"end":17608.442,"text":"接下來第14案請說明謝委員已經簽名就說那個改成專案不是 改成書面報告凍結 那用凍結那個整列改成凍結1.5%那改成書面報告1.5%就是等一下 等一下你為什麼蛤你是同意嗎蛤"},{"start":17609.517,"end":17631.189,"text":"不是 他是凍結我知道他的意思啦齁他有跟謝一鳳委員溝通過了就不以簡列改成書面報告預算照列是嗎對預算照列啦 沒有凍結了啦要凍結啊 但是我們跟他你的水電費 每個月都要納4億元你凍結 凍結一定發生什麼事"},{"start":17638.427,"end":17657.874,"text":"沒有已經溝通好了啦我來處理第14案給書面報告不以凍結預算照列然後第15案請說明第15案請說明這個因為那些費用保錢等等的費用檢驗"},{"start":17666.361,"end":17690.561,"text":"服務會法律執行 法律事務會委託檢驗會等之類 請兩邊以檢列動輒改成書面報告 謝謝好啦 照例了這個預算是全部支持 但是書面報告要詳細 精進一點好15案預算照列書面報告我們現在處理16案到25案 請說明那因為那個"},{"start":17696.67,"end":17715.567,"text":"第十四案是我們豬會增加那個豬肉肉片火鍋肉片都會增加請能免禮凍結改成書片報告那第十七案的話那個美國公司我們要持續改善也請能免禮凍結改成書片報告那十八案的理由跟十六案的理由是一樣請能"},{"start":17719.91,"end":17743.29,"text":"還有19案的話那個總經理主席我可不可以先講一下委員給你提案你不是直接講答案答案是主席才要講是請你說明說明為什麼人家凍結你希望不凍結或者是不立美國怎麼樣到底內容是什麼你要講這個好董事長那個你可以講明"},{"start":17743.71,"end":17771.645,"text":"閩南語比較可以精進的說明清楚那本席是才是說現在處理是16案到25案你要整體這個預算項目的說明那最後才是要動要剪要書面要專案是由主席來才是你只要對委員提案的內容給予說明清楚做一個溝通這樣好不好你不用一案一案來你可以一起講有些案子是相關聯的好不好"},{"start":17772.671,"end":17795.551,"text":"好謝謝因為第17案委員提的是美國公司的情況那我們今年會持續的改善那18案的話是改善就本來是虧損那現在我們虧損要少一點這一個部分那你要說要怎麼做"},{"start":17797.304,"end":17812.587,"text":"跟各位報告我們美國分公司的部分我們在開源的部分我們現在已經我們那個分公司是是在加州的北部然後我們現在已經在我們在去年的時候113年我們已經開拓市場到加州的南部甚至到這個美東的這個部分所以我們在113年我們美國分公司的這個虧損已經減少了1500萬元這是第一點"},{"start":17824.369,"end":17850.28,"text":"那節流的這個部分我們在溫室的這個部分我們投入這個設備的一個改善所以電費也大幅的減少那第三個部分就是說我們在美國基地有一個加州的在加州基地的部分那我們經過檢討之後也把加州的這個德州基地的部分我們已經把這個德州基地的業務把它"},{"start":17851.937,"end":17862.106,"text":"所以那邊的虧損也可以降低這個是具體降低我們美國分公司的一個做法陳總你這樣講我就聽清楚聽明白了我的疑惑也瞬間毛色鈍開"},{"start":17871.213,"end":17892.317,"text":"講重點 我的質疑 為什麼我要凍結你500萬有原因 你針對我的原因說明我可以接受 我當然就可以免於凍結主席我就把16 17 18 三案全部改成主決議好 楊群英委員"},{"start":17894.652,"end":17908.627,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛台談公司所做的說明因為大家對於我們在海外的投資大家都非常的希望可以跟國際接軌那我認為說我們台談公司也有責任"},{"start":17909.608,"end":17926.194,"text":"就像我們邱昭偉所說的他毛色鈍開原來你們在做什麼但是很多人還是不知道所以我希望要有一個書面資料告訴我們你們目前現在的狀態如何那麼在新年度裡頭你預計可以有哪些前瞻性"},{"start":17927.154,"end":17952.429,"text":"的方案以及預計的KPI到底是什麼請你順便資料給我們經濟委員會也給本席那第二個呢23萬是本席所提我一再再強調在我們的營業成本裡頭投資性的不動產費用因為我們現在有很多你們自己用你們的土地然後去蓋這個包租工"},{"start":17953.569,"end":17967.736,"text":"這個因應各個都市的樣態 你們也隨時再調整那以我們台中 你在豬公台中 你是一定是大賺錢而且你包豬公的方面 這個也非常好"},{"start":17968.496,"end":17994.553,"text":"那現在社會擺態也就是你要賺錢你必須要將你的成本要怎麼樣節流這個很重要以往光光是這個比如說電費派去什麼的這一些事務性的水管壞掉啊什麼的這些事務性的那現在也有很多是怎麼樣做是我們自己管理還是我們委託這個代租公的這個公司來管理你們有沒有去"},{"start":17995.894,"end":18011.541,"text":"就是去檢討我們在節流的方面成本節流我可以怎麼樣又好又這個成本又低我覺得這個是我們公家機關裡頭我很重視的要怎麼樣去去節流"},{"start":18012.861,"end":18035.417,"text":"這個是非常重要 因為光是這個節流又可以賺到很多錢也就是在你的成本可以降低的時候 你當然你的EPS就會高起來嘛那所以我這個23案呢 我原本是給你減列就是減列620萬那我現在可以 就是以凍結的方式那這個凍結600萬"},{"start":18039.039,"end":18048.813,"text":"那你們將你們截留的方案營業成本的這個不動產部分的你怎麼樣截留方案書面報告時的動資好嗎好請陳婷菲委員"},{"start":18055.11,"end":18072.995,"text":"謝謝主席我想我的提案的部分是希望說我們的整個在續產事業的部分是不是能夠有所謂增加更多的一些量能然後怎麼能夠有比較高的"},{"start":18073.775,"end":18102.309,"text":"一些盈餘盈利甚至推廣這個部分所以我們希望說我們在整個閒置的能量好像會有一些事件因為台堂常常都是首當其衝如果有狀況我們就是要先閒置不能與民爭利大概會有這樣的狀況那到底我們如果遇到這些我們怎麼去調整"},{"start":18104.53,"end":18126.279,"text":"調節然後而不是好像放在那裡就是沒有辦法有更多的一些我們的營業收入然後每一次然後相抵之後我們的盈餘又沒有那麼高營業利益沒有那麼高所以因為我們畢竟我們公司也是"},{"start":18128.041,"end":18141.702,"text":"營業為主要目的當然我們在重要的這個政策當中還是要配合可是我們在配合當中然後在我們的一個調節度做一個最適配的"},{"start":18142.643,"end":18164.965,"text":"我覺得這是我們要去思考的啦所以我希望說我凍結這個一千萬然後我們一個月提出書面報告使得凍結就是在調節的時候那閒置的部分呢我們該怎麼去做處理然後給我們一個報告書面報告好 謝謝委員好 請張旗開委員"},{"start":18166.995,"end":18184.722,"text":"我提了二十二跟二十五我今天 當時你跟我說我台語比較廉重 但是我台語說那個二十二案就是現在的經濟部在推動這個再生能源可是不能變成說一直在砍樹砍樹我提了兩個 你看這兩個例子第一個是最近"},{"start":18188.715,"end":18206.76,"text":"屏東月滿園你這個你撤企劃這個事情本來就是光電專區嘛你看二十幾年你看二十幾年這個現在已經停下來了也過了我自己當一個人你們台湯地我自己當一個人你現在在那裡撤企劃你砍樹去種光電你摧毀了那個有77公頃的那整個自然生態都破壞了當地我很多當一個人在那裡看他的"},{"start":18216.069,"end":18223.718,"text":"我就提的案子我要砍掉你三千萬的這個預算我現在先把它改成凍結可是你要趕快去幫我了解一下這個案子"},{"start":18225.348,"end":18243.253,"text":"當然了解 我就簡略先把它改成凍結 因為年頭是有來做溝通啦我這個態度也很好 那更重要的就是要改革問題我把它變成凍結 包括你現在 你知道一星期來你要稍微去了解整個狀況77公頃 這是很嚴重的 民眾 當局有很多民眾在抗議的嘛你一星期你給他了解看到底要如何後續改革 好不好"},{"start":18250.095,"end":18267.808,"text":"我跟委員報告啦,平時我很清楚的,因為那是,剛才就是說配合那個兩原素,把林鄉不佳的改成農用,先改成農用,連隔天報告就出來了,所以我們就順便動起來,平時那件我很清楚的。"},{"start":18268.789,"end":18268.909,"text":"另外這個24案"},{"start":18285.345,"end":18295.172,"text":"就是你以前當署長的這件事他去準備土地賣給這個村農公司這個弊案這其實範圍都有範圍啦你們台湯損失2億5千萬這算是很嚴重的嘛其實台湯就是要去錢要去賺回來嘛有範圍有範圍嘛所以你現在有兩個要做的嘛你去對他的 你可以去看不看這個什麼"},{"start":18310.902,"end":18321.889,"text":"執行署嘛,你叫他先去請他的財產嘛,現在就是包括黃國昌,他們現在都去堆就住了,說他現在開BMW的高級車,去高檔的產品吃飯,檢測官就叫他去吃飯,你現在去堆,就是說好像堆了很多次回來,這是第一例嘛,第二次的,你現在如果堆,他到現在都沒辦法理他"},{"start":18335.196,"end":18335.737,"text":"我們已經向法院議席"},{"start":18358.513,"end":18387.042,"text":"那個113年12月9號向法院遞狀申請再以強制執行依強制執行法第19條規定申請調查債務人 無難人等4人之財產狀況那向中華民國連受保險商業同業工會中華郵政公司台灣集中保管結算所公司及勞動部勞工保險及查刑"},{"start":18387.822,"end":18410.952,"text":"以及請求法案依強制執行法第20條規定定期間令無難人等4人即時報告財產狀態與立強制執行我們的繳錢了現在我們是很積極的在做到法案那邊 謝謝法官你有申請他要不會回你就對了對你要12月當時申請12月19日12月19日現在今天當時今天一位"},{"start":18417.139,"end":18423.196,"text":"請教一個位啊要一個位啊就一個位這件事對後面都比較清楚 如果還要有消息回來我們的法務"},{"start":18424.412,"end":18451.004,"text":"我們這個法務委員這個要看執行處他的那個案子怎麼樣子啦他不可能為台南車線優先來處理不是要查 上面這個案子是國案啊你以前一直在那裡嘛對不對在那裡是國案啊在那裡四個人的財產應該很好查的啊那他在12月19號有給我們一張文我們也去繳費用了那他會去查像那個人壽保險的那個工會啊等等他會去查 查到之後他會把它扣掉"},{"start":18451.684,"end":18473.546,"text":"好,這樣,我看要再一、兩個禮拜當然,馬上有回來你就趕快給我啦好啊,如果沒有回來一、兩個禮拜,我還要做這個進度,好不好?好,謝謝所以吃一隻,不要第一隻這麼多,第二隻他就在外面開名車然後這個,吃這個高檔的餐廳因為整個社會觀感會不好啦對整個經濟部跟台黨形象也會不好啊,要繼續推,好不好?謝謝"},{"start":18474.827,"end":18477.889,"text":"好我們現在處理16案到25案第16 17 18改為主決議那16到25我們凍結3000萬書面報告接下來是26案到29案請說明最主要這個"},{"start":18493.646,"end":18521.756,"text":"我們營業費用是受那個年初的那個 七年初的西部特樓的影響還有疫情商品 本來我們疫情商品那個酒精方面都賣得很好啊 但是受到影響所以七年的營業有下降 希望我們能夠能夠改成那個 給我們改成市民報告 然後"},{"start":18523.837,"end":18546.794,"text":"那個在29的地方第幾到第幾26到26到哪裡到29那29案因為那個主席有提到就有一些問題但是"},{"start":18549.174,"end":18560.048,"text":"經法案的清查就我們調查出來我們連也沒有割捷地方但我們一定會加強員工的信念那來"},{"start":18562.029,"end":18579.448,"text":"有這種事情的話我們在廢棄物處理法裡面就我們員工沒有去勾結而是他下雨的關係造成那個委員所關心的這件事情那到現在查出來都沒有我們員工勾結的情況以上跟委員報告 謝謝好"},{"start":18583.421,"end":18596.655,"text":"這個是我們台糖整個運作的這個相關的支出啦那因為台糖公司剛剛就我們董事長所講的就是冷凍豬肉遭到檢舉說有瘦肉肌有西部特羅那後來呢我們大量的來採樣檢查的時候"},{"start":18599.378,"end":18622.613,"text":"也做了一個檢測並沒有驗出這個西部特羅那但是現在我們要查出來是污染源在哪裡污染的源頭你沒有把明確查出來這樣子的話你整個流程有必要做檢討這樣子才能夠挽回到民眾對台糖商品的這個信心所以這個也必須要詳細的檢討之後給我們書面報告好不好這個是不是先跟委員報告因為我們從那個飼料"},{"start":18625.697,"end":18654.637,"text":"毛豬血液都在場裡面都查了總共檢測了920幾個樣品都沒有查出你是檢測出來的就給我們報告嘛給我們書面報告所以26案到29案我們凍結1000萬書面報告好請去委員來對不起謝謝那個董事長我請教一下你們這個因為西部特羅的這個烏龍事件所造成的營業損失是多少"},{"start":18656.338,"end":18684.418,"text":"那你們現在所有的檢測都是零那那個營業損失跟商譽有沒有要請求賠償?如何重建你們台堂的商譽?你不要笑啊,這很嚴肅的問題啊是是是你評判這麼嚴格,阿馮跟你說有時沒有透露整個整個你們台堂的地板都綁板啊你們現在驗出來確實是沒有啊那如果是一般的公司這個是要去求償的捏"},{"start":18686.206,"end":18705.746,"text":"阿你這樣放過了嗎?或是每次拼了沒辦法自己顧好自己我講這是嚴肅的議題喔這個不是政治議題喔這未來不管是誰如果還是講台糖又驗出來又一個搞一個烏龍然後你們的豬肉銷售量又下跌這國營事業你總是"},{"start":18706.923,"end":18719.333,"text":"不是說國營世界就可以隨便污蔑嘛你如果是搞這樣子的話你們還是要有一個求償機制啊你的整個商域受損你把自己當成是一個企業來經營如果你的企業是這樣商域受損的話你們要怎麼處理是"},{"start":18724.326,"end":18735.898,"text":"好 那董事長剛剛的書面報告不管是你檢測的整個過程還有未來的求償部分法律途徑這個你都要書面報告講清楚好那26到29就凍結1000萬書面報告接下來是30案到34案請說明這個最主要就是說"},{"start":18743.462,"end":18771.863,"text":"我們的那個廠房有24處的那個停閉的場期但其實我們已經活化了76.2%那我們最主要是交那個土地稅交了2.1億那這個是因為我們要活化的話沒有辦法一下就全部活化因為要年要錢要時間所以希望委員能夠給我們那個便宜"},{"start":18772.799,"end":18778.426,"text":"剪裁後沒有動輒而我們提那個書面報告謝謝好請邱志偉回言"},{"start":18781.387,"end":18808.403,"text":"這個我也去昨天去質詢嘛因為34年都沒有去處理所以可能總經理比較了解這個你們要提出一個改善方案不是每年都是花那麼多的這個稅金在上面是跟委員報告我們具體的做法可以分成兩類第一類就是它是樹地的部分比如說我們的這個屏東場區那還有我們的新興場區的這個部分那"},{"start":18808.843,"end":18830.482,"text":"不涉及到文資身份的部分我們就是透過這個都市計畫的一個一個變更那這兩個案子其實我們在顯示土地的部分在屏東廠區它就已經佔了60公頃那新興廠區也將近21公頃所以最主要是這兩個廠區的土地那目前都是在"},{"start":18832.943,"end":18846.481,"text":"高雄沒有因為高雄我們的這個像岐山我們都已經變成是岐塘文創園區了那我們整個這個橋頭的部分也都活化是是是對那這個部分我們就是透過都市計畫"},{"start":18847.462,"end":18871.595,"text":"專案變更的方式那另外有一部分就是會涉及到它是這個古蹟那歷史建築文資身份的這個部分我們必須要依照文資法的三個程序修復再利用計畫還有這個這個細部設計因應計畫那接下來是修復工程的一個發包我可以理解你們有做最大的努力但是還是有進步空間所以我才會凍結"},{"start":18874.216,"end":18880.438,"text":"凍結300萬可以再降到凍結100萬提出書面報告好謝謝好前面的第29案是改組決議好那33案到34案凍結100萬書面報告第35案請說明因為我們今年那個"},{"start":18895.66,"end":18924.966,"text":"毛住量會增加 那毛住量我們就外包人力會增加那個大概增加86% 那水電大概會佔啦 佔86% 水電佔9%所以希望能夠那個免以凍結謝謝好 第35案預算照列改成主決議第36案請說明那個張委員他已經簽名同意撤案你那個送過來沒要不要送過來"},{"start":18927.674,"end":18953.937,"text":"好 第三十六案預算照列現在處理重大資建設事業第三十七案到四十二案請說明最主要跟委員跟主席報告就是說我們榮慧新環租產改建今年完工那當然物價那個調整工程委託建造技術服務的展援配合鄰里意見"},{"start":18955.411,"end":18977.896,"text":"調整部分租場的改建範圍以及公共藝術法令適用等不可抗議因素所以我們追加了17億多的那個經費那這今年要執行而且可以可以完成的那是希望那個委員能夠給那個改成書面報告謝謝請清雲委員"},{"start":18982.83,"end":18988.846,"text":"謝謝主席這個董事長您剛講說這個17億是追加的你們確定今年可以完成嗎"},{"start":18990.598,"end":19014.643,"text":"三年前也是這樣說你們的期程一直在往後延然後剛剛第35案的時候您又講說你們的租資今年是可以增加的那你的這個租場改建還沒有完成租資可以增加你這裡有信心跟委員報告我們租場改建當然是第一個早就完成有分成第一期跟第二期那是第一期我知道你現在是說你後面在內的"},{"start":19017.472,"end":19031.105,"text":"你比較長的可以完成 如果不完成呢?叫我的結尾是可以完成 因為齁計畫都趕不上變化啊叫你的結尾是可以完成 你現在缺工缺料 頂頂的來總經理 你要說明一下嗎 還是你們什麼人 資產OK 我們那個 矽資部的處長"},{"start":19035.885,"end":19061.093,"text":"報告委員現在目前我們其實有兩期的改建第一期的部分六個場現在應該都算已經完成現在就是在養豬了所以剛剛講說那個養豬量在今年來講會持續的增加這是第一個原因第二個第二期的部分有七個場那當然七個場目前的進度平均起來應該已經八大概八十趴了裡頭有四個肉豬場現在進度應該是九十趴左右"},{"start":19061.613,"end":19086.312,"text":"那這個部分就是說其實應該是在最近的幾個月我們就會開始陸陸續續進租來做功能的測試那最慢的有三個場現在是排在大概六月左右應該會完成也可以慢慢的持續的進租所以才會講說後面的那個租的量會逐漸的提升上來這樣子 以上報告那我就不堅持我就不凍結可是可不可以請你們把這些"},{"start":19087.519,"end":19110.095,"text":"詳細的計畫書面送過來好請邱志偉委員你們要說明我也了解那我還是不要啦你都不動我也不用動我還是改組決議好了好我們來處理第37案到42案書面報告預算照列第43案請說明"},{"start":19116.609,"end":19133.221,"text":"雖然是那個113年12月20號嘉義縣政府富阪台南公司我們同意以包租代管的模式來辦理那我們董事會通過以後就可以跟嘉義縣政府來簽約那而且委員那個我們跟蔡委員"},{"start":19134.505,"end":19142.751,"text":"那個郭通過他改成主決議謝謝好把他送過來委員簽名的送過來好43案改為主決議現在來處理主決議44案"},{"start":19147.796,"end":19167.227,"text":"遵照辦理通過45案遵照辦理通過46案遵照辦理通過47案遵照辦理通過48案遵照辦理通過49案遵照辦理通過50案遵照辦理通過51案遵照辦理通過52案遵照辦理通過53案遵照辦理通過54案遵照辦理"},{"start":19170.009,"end":19193.983,"text":"通過55案 遵照辦理通過56案 遵照辦理通過57案 遵照辦理通過58案 遵照辦理通過59案 遵照辦理通過60案 遵照辦理通過61案 遵照辦理通過62案文字修正修正哪裡修正那個倒數第二行都把它刪除說一下"},{"start":19195.595,"end":19217.607,"text":"那個就說倒數第二行的應積極活化利用停工廠房並應將位於原住民地區之閒置廠房五廠四次作為原住民文創基地與發揮資產多元應用之效益全部把它刪除掉是 謝謝好 鄭天才委員鄭委員已經同意好"},{"start":19219.407,"end":19235.113,"text":"62案文字修正通過第63案遵照辦理通過第64案遵照辦理通過第65案文字修正好請說明就在那個島數第二行從併那個地方開始那個山處從併的地方"},{"start":19241.673,"end":19269.396,"text":"並積極地將屬於戰用隊 謝謝好 鄭天才委員好 同意第65案文字修正通過第66案 遵照辦理通過第67案 遵照辦理通過第68案 遵照辦理通過第69案文字修正請說明以美計刪掉就倒數第二行的最後三個字"},{"start":19277.226,"end":19293.86,"text":"倒數第二行最後三個字書面報告刪除你現在是要刪除與美計這三個字刪掉是不是台廠公司應將開發進度及成果向立法院經紀委員會提書面報告"},{"start":19297.645,"end":19316.149,"text":"所以不是最後三個字順便報告導述第二行導述第二行所以你要講導述第二行美季把它改掉以美季美季改掉那個賴委員有沒有簽字來我們請邱映穎委員還沒送來"},{"start":19326.256,"end":19351.859,"text":"好 69案文字修正通過 新增69之1案69之1陳天飛委員的提案 昨天有諮詢你了主決議第69之1照案通過 遵照辦理 對不起 sorry sorry"},{"start":19353.673,"end":19378.422,"text":"好 謝謝 69案通 69之1案通過來 我們接續進行台灣中油股份有限公司的協商那個審查完畢的單位可以先行回去辦公"},{"start":19390.302,"end":19419.021,"text":"我們現在就來處理114年度中油公司的預算業務計畫在第一案到第八案請先說明主席各位委員大家好那麼我們114年的在環保支出預算的編列是84億那麼工作的主要重點是在污染防治設備以及的改善那麼力求減少罰單來強化我們的節能減碳公司永續經營"},{"start":19420.888,"end":19424.212,"text":"那麼114年相較於去年我們所編列的預算來講已經減少了編列的6.5億那麼我們後續會"},{"start":19432.199,"end":19452.326,"text":"把握這個預算那在公司的這個環保的制度面操作面跟設備面來持續的深切檢討來降低罰單的一個件數那這個案子我們經過幾位委員跟拜訪以後那麼其中第二案張家俊委員還有第六案謝一鳳委員的提案"},{"start":19453.146,"end":19478.719,"text":"或者委員同意改為書面報告另外第5案陳超明委員改為凍結500萬也提書面報告那麼以上說明提醒委員支持好這第1案到第8案請邱志偉委員好1到8嗎這個剛剛這個說明是"},{"start":19483.134,"end":19510.582,"text":"好像沒講到重點 你幫的事業我是第七案嘛 我可以不要動那麼多 但是這個公安的部分有時候會讓人家覺得好像有時候會出現一些公安或者環保的問題那個終於連支事業部都是在高雄嘛所以我那邊還有一二天安氣"},{"start":19511.676,"end":19525.311,"text":"所以公安一定要做到確實的所以我覺得是不是鳳姐千萬提出對公安環保衛生的盡盡作為提出書篇報告之後我們再來動之那是動500好了好 請楊瓊議員"},{"start":19531.153,"end":19551.022,"text":"謝謝楊卓銘發言 諸董事我想要請教你剛才的報告當中說你這個114年度呢你是比前年度減了這個減6.5億表示你有方法但是我要請教的是說因為越來越多"},{"start":19552.162,"end":19562.762,"text":"的這個環保標準是比以往是越來越嚴那這樣的情況之下 你目前你的罰單最多的類別是什麼"},{"start":19563.976,"end":19586.683,"text":"最多的類別就是像VOC 就是有機非化性氣體的那個罰單比較多那個很恐怖耶 一下子一台自動車進去你們就要暫停啦現在各地方政府對於非化性氣體的管制非常嚴而且一旦查到的話罰的都很重"},{"start":19588.151,"end":19615.741,"text":"這不是法案重視,你不能有這樣子的因為像我說要進去,一架摩托車去發生這個問題就整個要停掉是,那怎麼辦我們就只有在那個,我們是門禁管制會去把它加嚴另外在智慧公安的部分我們也要去把它加強也就是說透過AI的方式來去做遠程的監控能夠適時的把它制止"},{"start":19617.386,"end":19640.438,"text":"你現在講的這個就是一個重點遠程的監控現在很方便啊我們自己手機在裡面你連你家裡現在你要叫他怎麼樣他就怎麼樣啊就很方便啊這個我們應該都是要佈建吧對不對因為我們中友是一個模範生啊而且他也是一個指標的而且給你們的家門的像我們家門的都這麼多"},{"start":19642.312,"end":19669.687,"text":"那你這個你自己本身的模範神沒有做好家門的怎麼跟跟不上來啊這個我們加強我們加強對不對是這個部分我個人是認為對於算沒意見但是我是充分建議就像我們剛才在審幾個單位一樣訊息萬變技術方面它是越來越先進而且會越來越簡單那我們務必一定要去接軌"},{"start":19671.351,"end":19694.905,"text":"因為如果從業中我們的罰單都是一樣單一項目這一種項目都是排在第一名表示我們沒有進步那為什麼會發生這樣子呢對不對所以這個部分要怎麼樣去加強我相信有很大努力的空間嘛對對對要借用現代的科技來去做改善"},{"start":19695.581,"end":19711.276,"text":"那這個是您嘴巴說啊要不要實際行動啊會 我們正在建制當中因為本席跟你的一個我只有看到一個項目就是說你的罰單同樣是每一年都是那一個類別最多所以表示你根本沒精進啊"},{"start":19712.077,"end":19738.162,"text":"因為已經出現罰單就是表示問題在那裡可是每一年都一樣是那個問題罰單最多表示沒精進啊這個是我們在看預算裡頭最希望看到有精進的方案你把精進方案給我們好不好看你的KPI指數你預計要怎麼做我們在這裡不是說要聽到說我比去年少了6.5億我就通通預算給你不是這樣子的該當需要的"},{"start":19739.142,"end":19753.476,"text":"當然要全力支持啊但是該當都一樣沒有監禁怎麼給啊好不好你把方案出來KPI拿出來嘛讓每一年的罰單都同樣類別那這個不好啊好不好中油是金字招牌啊是對不對好請陳靜菲委員"},{"start":19759.779,"end":19783.938,"text":"其實我知道中油的預算其實都很拮据因為說真的我們油價的問題等等可是我們在監督的時候還是需要去做一些控管就是說我們所謂的空污品質的部分那我們也確實也有被相關單位去開罰的問題"},{"start":19785.899,"end":19807.74,"text":"那到底這一個開閥的問題跟我們現在每年也要求編列預算要去配合政府的環保政策那這當中到底有什麼漢格為什麼還是一樣有編預算也編了不少可是為什麼還是沒有辦法執行到位這是什麼原因"},{"start":19809.954,"end":19838.429,"text":"跟委員報告就是延續剛剛委員所提的問題我們最大的被開罰的範圍就是那個VOC超標的問題那因為我們公司的這個煉油廠它那個設備元件非常的多所以我們現在打算就是把每一天每一個月要求要自主去檢查這些設備元件有沒有洩漏我們要求把這個比例要提高"},{"start":19839.505,"end":19860.736,"text":"提高那在主管機關來查核之前我們再做最後一次確認那麼這樣的話就希望就是說主管機關來查核的時候對於設備元件的VOC的一個洩漏能夠在標準值以內那麼以前沒這麼做嗎以前我們要求的比例需要把它提高沒有那麼高對我們的比例沒那麼高對"},{"start":19862.017,"end":19889.749,"text":"那現在都很多科技我們其實可以透過很多的一個科技的大數據控管去控管這個部分因為我們每年省預算我們給予配合環保政策去處理一些相關的改善計畫我們每年的預算都蠻多的而且我們也都不敢去動因為這是空屋沒有人敢動"},{"start":19890.729,"end":19914.314,"text":"可是每年一樣這個被開單的狀態還沒減少對這讓我們就很納悶啊所以到底我們預期我們要達到什麼樣的一個標準好今年我們總是要自己訂一個標準吧我們期待說今年好這個預算下去我們期待下一次可以給我們什麼樣的一個目標值好"},{"start":19916.201,"end":19935.307,"text":"這個是不是容我們在書面報告的時候把我這個KPI一起把它放進去好那我我就凍結啦我本來要減劣啦但是我現在不要減劣但凍多一點我要凍結兩千萬啦凍兩千萬然後書面報告之後使得凍之好不好然後把我剛剛講的"},{"start":19936.627,"end":19965.492,"text":"就是說這一筆錢給你了那你要做什麼樣的一些KPI的一些控管達到什麼樣目標值那如果沒有達到怎麼辦我覺得這個東西都應該要有一些數據出來跟標準出來謝謝好 請清理委員好 謝謝主席這個董事長剛剛您講到這個部分你說你們現在那個BOC的部分你們現在要開始"},{"start":19966.451,"end":19983.149,"text":"做查核你們是一個月一次嗎?還是多久一次?目前我們是要求一個月一個月一次到主管機關來查不是一個月一次而是說一個月裡面所有的設備元件他要去查核的百分比定一個KPI"},{"start":19984.96,"end":19994.844,"text":"譬如說這個100個元件裡面要一個月裡面要完成自主的檢測到達5%舉個例子那我們現在把這個5%的比例把它提高譬如說10%"},{"start":20003.468,"end":20021.834,"text":"但是你這個不應該是要定期的有去做檢測除了你現在要做的這一塊以外難道不應該是定期的要去做檢測而不是在主管機關要來查核之前才把這個東西完成我覺得像這一塊就是說"},{"start":20022.694,"end":20044.186,"text":"中油在維護環保跟公安上面的SOP可能還要再更精進再更提高那你們能不能運用高科技的這些技術去減少你們在公安的事件跟環保比如說這些氣體外洩的事件的發生率"},{"start":20046.067,"end":20073.595,"text":"這個你們應該會有一些所謂的精進作為嘛預算都給了那怎麼樣去降低這些事故而不是說一直不斷的被環保機關來罰錢環保署對於很多新的設廠比如說我們現在在講一些新的這一些什麼SRF廠啦或者是這些什麼廢棄物的處理工廠等等的環保署對他們要求很嚴格啊"},{"start":20074.54,"end":20078.883,"text":"那中油在這一塊本來就應該要以身作則而且你們本來就應該帶頭要精進這些設備減少事故嘛"},{"start":20083.741,"end":20110.506,"text":"這一塊就像剛剛廷飛委員講的啦我覺得可能你們還是要再擬定一個一個更更精準的這些書面報告我可以不動我可以不凍結你們的預算啦但是我想要了解一下你們更精進的這些是作為好不好好是是好那第一案到第八案我們凍結兩千萬書面報告接下來是第九案到第十七案請說明"},{"start":20113.38,"end":20128.153,"text":"這個主要是公安預算那麼委員所關心的事情就是公司發生的公安事件以及總和傷害指數以及員工傷害頻率那麼有升高的一個趨勢我想說明的是這個費用"},{"start":20130.615,"end":20148.082,"text":"在今年來講編了30億那麼是比去年113年編的要多啦那主要的考慮就是我們公司在陸續的一些場域將會進入營運階段譬如說第三接收站"},{"start":20148.922,"end":20176.758,"text":"以及在永安的第三期的建設已經完成所以相關的這些設施設備也會比較多那剛剛提到在公安措施的方面我們要加強AI的一個防護AI的防護來去管理這個門禁以及我們要去管理在現場的員工或者是承攬商人員他所穿戴的"},{"start":20178.479,"end":20203.22,"text":"裝備跟他的工作的行為能夠也能夠預先的預測出來能夠適時的在遠端監控能夠制止他那麼希望藉由這樣的方式來降低這些公安的事故那麼所編列的預算也懇請就是委員們能夠支持以上說明好 請邱英委員"},{"start":20204.466,"end":20227.549,"text":"謝謝主席董事長您剛講到一個重點我上次去參加新創展的時候我發現有一個研發我覺得這個中游應該要去深度了解那個新創展裡頭有一個人他研發了一套東西是他可以偵測到你在這個建築工地或者是一個什麼樣的工廠裡面的氣體有沒有外洩還有工人"},{"start":20229.181,"end":20246.509,"text":"你在工作的工人佩戴的安全帽他隨時上面都有sensor可以定位你所在的區域安不安全或者是你有沒有確實的佩戴這些安全的設施如果是有這樣我去新創展看到這個研發的時候我非常的驚訝我覺得這個所有的"},{"start":20247.549,"end":20271.169,"text":"公共安全公共建設上面都應該要去了解這個配備應該都要去考慮採用所以您剛講到這個我剛提的就是說運用新的科技比如說你們的廠區裡頭也有類似這樣的一個感應器裝置或者是說跟什麼樣的新創公司研究這個新創很多都是我們經濟部在輔導的"},{"start":20273.69,"end":20295.424,"text":"我覺得運用這些東西來降低你們的公安事故或者是提高這個公共工作環境的公共安全這個是很重要的所以你剛剛講的其實你是在複述我的話但是我不確定你到底知不知道有這樣的東西存在那這個是不是能夠把它列為未來你們在降低公安上面的一個很重要的"},{"start":20296.55,"end":20299.233,"text":"我們現在打算在我們公司的場域選擇一個工廠"},{"start":20319.032,"end":20333.35,"text":"當成是一個示範場域我們把這些AI的科技呢所想到的部分在這個場域裡面把它建置起來再看它實行的結果是怎麼樣那麼哪些適合哪些不適合或是要做什麼調整"},{"start":20334.051,"end":20359.067,"text":"那麼這個模式建立起來以後就推動到其他的工廠來一體的試用目前我們準備朝這個方向去做那麼有關公安的部分剛剛有再補充說明那麼第11案蔡議員跟第13案陳昌明委員那麼就這兩個提案他們也同意改成主決議以上補充好 請邱志偉委員"},{"start":20360.494,"end":20372.301,"text":"這個我們在高雄不管是林議員的石化事業部或者是在這個林市事業部相對的他的工作場域的危險性比較高"},{"start":20373.564,"end":20398.424,"text":"有阿伊歐亞天然氣還好 但是還是有它危險性所以中游的不管是操作或者你們這個工作的空間還是有一定的自災整體的總和性的自災指數也一直沒有降到降到1以下然後員工的傷害頻率也一直沒有到0傷亡我們希望你做到0傷亡"},{"start":20400.327,"end":20425.746,"text":"所以這目標 這個是內部管理問題如果每天都能夠戰戰兢兢 能夠確實貫徹我們說要零傷害 零傷亡是最主要的目標總和自災 你要降到1以下所以我覺得這部分其他部分我們都那麼堅持 但是功能部分我還是要堅持這個要凍結五百萬提出書面報告 加強內部管理機制是是好 凍結五百萬"},{"start":20427.472,"end":20434.637,"text":"第9案到第17案11案跟13案改為主決議全案我們凍結500萬書面報告接下來18案到21案請說明"},{"start":20443.021,"end":20462.049,"text":"這個案子我想委員關心的兩個事情第一個就是專利申請數的逐年下降還有專利為商業運用的占比偏低這兩個問題做以上說明我們公司在08年到110年專利申請數是雖然有下降不過在111年開始這個專利申請數已經開始逐年上升了"},{"start":20472.464,"end":20501.967,"text":"至於說這個專利數的為商業運用的占比低的原因是因為我們最近的研發的項目都是主要集中在前瞻科技方面的一個推動那麼前瞻科技的方面的一個推動這方面的一個運用恐怕需要一點時間讓我們累積更有效的一個專利那麼才能夠實施的商業化那麼做以上的說明請邱志偉言"},{"start":20505.433,"end":20520.19,"text":"謝謝主席 那個引發固然重要 這筆金額也非常大想請教一下比去年是多了一億七千多萬嘛相信八千萬嘛是所以八千萬我希望你們這個真的要有實際的結果那你們這個"},{"start":20521.796,"end":20545.43,"text":"預算增加的同時 你們專利的效益好像也沒有看到很明顯的增加 專利所以你的績效管理很重要這個經費我當然支持 研發也很重要特別是中油 你們這是研發的產品對未來一定有很大的幫助所以我覺得怎麼樣讓你們的研發的效能能夠朝向更多的專利累積"},{"start":20546.491,"end":20562.834,"text":"然後能夠有更好的外溢效果不管是智慧綠能、高質材料、循環經濟、智慧安環因為地熱、碳供應也很重要所以另外氫的技術 我昨天也諮詢過"},{"start":20570.936,"end":20596.006,"text":"清隆的开发这一部分所以我是觉得这个部分我是不是在52亿里面我们冻结500万提出这个你们如何去提升专利效益以及各方面的研发成果提出这篇报告冻结500万好我们"},{"start":20596.796,"end":20620.052,"text":"鄭天才委員你的提案 沒意見好 18案到21案凍結500萬書面報告第22案請說明22案主要是陳昌明委員關心的有關在鐵戰山碳封存的示範計畫那麼因為沒有碳源所以為了避免無效益的投資呢所提的凍結1000萬那麼這個案子呢"},{"start":20625.249,"end":20643.18,"text":"我們拜訪過委員,委員是同意改凍結200萬因為這個案子跟後面相關的其他案子都有關聯性我們是不是建議跟3243案一起再來並案辦理"},{"start":20648.933,"end":20666.825,"text":"好 第22案我們預算先照列在32、43在一併處理第23案請說明23案我們專照辦理好那我們第23案的營業收入增列1000萬"},{"start":20670.373,"end":20691.235,"text":"第24案已經測案了然後我們現在來處理營業總支出第25案到28案請說明是這個案子主要是針對是水電絕電費那麼委員他是關心希望我們國營事業要帶同節電那這部分我想做個說明那麼"},{"start":20693.375,"end":20696.941,"text":"當然國營事業來講中國公司一定也是要帶頭來節電這個我們會努力去做那麼對於這個今年所編的預算是78.9億"},{"start":20706.004,"end":20734.98,"text":"那麼主要叫113年增編的原因是我們今年會陸續有幾個工廠會開始營運譬如說第三接收站要開始營運那麼以及我們在煉製事業部的煉油的煉量來講的話也會配合現場會增加因此在這個水電方面的費用會增加那也希望委員支持能夠維持原列數"},{"start":20737.605,"end":20762.59,"text":"好 25到28案大概是水電費了我們就遵絕使用預算照列好 第29案請說明29案是有關於利息費用編列143億那委員的提案是因為公司虧損那麼財務狀況不好希望在利息費用的部分能夠準決"},{"start":20765.23,"end":20791.636,"text":"那我想說明就是在我們140年左邊的143億呢跟去年來比的話呢跟去年的決算數是102億來比的話是有增加了那主要原因就是我們中央銀行在去年的3月有升息那麼同時呢在7月跟10月也調升了銀行存款準備率那麼加上我們今年呢"},{"start":20792.476,"end":20814.835,"text":"預估的平均的這個付息負債的金額也會增加因此我們預估在今年所需要的支付的利息是需要去增加的所以因此懇請委員能夠支持好 第29案我們預算就照列第30案到31案請說明"},{"start":20817.22,"end":20844.37,"text":"第三十案 三十跟三一主要是對這個服務費用的部分那麼這個委員關心的主要還是關心的三接保冷柴的這個議題那麼三接保冷柴的議題那我們會在三月底以前去努力的把這個三接保冷柴把它汰換完畢"},{"start":20845.871,"end":20870.431,"text":"那對於這個這個費用本身呢他是他是所作為是海管跟儲槽管線跟儲槽的一個檢查檢測之用所以為了這個油氣輸出油氣輸出跟供應的安全我們希望能夠委員支持還是照列好 請張季泰委員"},{"start":20874.967,"end":20891.019,"text":"三月底你會處理好嗎?我們努力把它完成四月就...本來你說四月你要去剪裁,不是嗎?你四月就整個三屆就完工了嗎?是,所以三月底以前把它...不是啦,四月要剪裁才不是,就是四月就開始三屆...開始運作測試測試,什麼時候開始運轉?"},{"start":20897.938,"end":20903.521,"text":"測試運轉,測試運轉,什麼時候減財?目前沒有安排,還沒有安排時間所以現在就是清澈表達說你3月底,就是本價的保冷財,確定它會是安全的,是不是?"},{"start":20919.813,"end":20947.621,"text":"我們不是說你財料有一點沒支配嘛對不對所以要換賣戶嘛那你現在三月要完成的標期你東西都支配都很好啊是這個意思嗎我們努力會在三月底前把它完成三月那我本來凍結的三例雖然我凍結不會影響你的工程監督嘛對不對這個費用不是用在三接啦沒有啦對啊所以好那我繼續凍這三例然後你三月底如果真的完成就解凍這樣可以好不好"},{"start":20948.783,"end":20952.588,"text":"報告委員我意見就是說這個費用跟三接沒有關係"},{"start":20959.685,"end":20974.334,"text":"財料不是財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第二財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有錢買,第一財料有"},{"start":20982.532,"end":21005.94,"text":"好請陳立立委員我想這個藉著預算然後希望我們中俄做得更好大家都是共同的方向但是如果說這個預算因為你動的額度其實已經有讓整個執行面有問題的話那就又違反到我們當初的意識所以其實我想我們希望"},{"start":21006.94,"end":21017.655,"text":"整個程序三接的部分有什麼樣的一些具體性的一些進度或有一些具體性的一個發展我相信大家都一樣可是我覺得"},{"start":21019.535,"end":21046.962,"text":"不要去動了這麼多啦我覺得動應該給你們趕快催促你們做更好的一些處理可是我還是建議立委說不要動那麼多啦如果真的是書面報告後然後可以去做動之那部分讓他們可以有叮嚀有催促又可以有我們的監督職責我覺得這比較重要"},{"start":21048.627,"end":21060.926,"text":"好 請邱志偉委員這個8億 動3億大概就將近4成你仔細看預算書啊這個是油氣輸出啊油氣輸出是天然氣對不對 總長"},{"start":21062.915,"end":21078.425,"text":"天然氣是不是包括油跟天然氣有沒有會影響永安天然氣會會嘛如果是你那個張信凱是關心三接跟這筆預算沒有關係啊你不要讓我這個永安天然氣這沒有辦法運作"},{"start":21082.531,"end":21092.947,"text":"你要解凍之後才能再凍之耶那什麼時候解凍還要再看看什麼時間點這不能讓他斷氣啊這個事關能源安全"},{"start":21094.161,"end":21112.773,"text":"我們不要針對這條啦不過你動了一千萬我覺得讓他們能夠對整個這個專業服務能夠提升這個我沒有意見你動到傷筋這個傷骨那個到時候你氣出不來這個會產生很大的能源危機喔"},{"start":21115.011,"end":21136.817,"text":"好 這是針對三十案的部分本期的提案是三十一案三十一案是對於我們的整個行政規費的支出那針對於我像我們終於針對空污水污染跟土污染這部分這個整個防治應該終於公司要再努力因為你們很多的被處罰的招罰金違反環保這個規則被罰金都已經高達了兩千多萬"},{"start":21142.779,"end":21170.227,"text":"那在這一部分的話我們希望中油這部分能夠再加強那因為這兩項的預算科目是不一樣啦那本席這邊也請我們中油再來做檢討讓整個污染能夠降低好不好那三十案的話我們請張七開委員我其實當初想要是當一個三億因為你之前就跟我說四月就要減財嘛那我想說你一定是可以完成啊你本來背一個以上你到了四月之前"},{"start":21171.383,"end":21177.136,"text":"你也有另外的5億啊 怎麼會影響啊其實就不會啊我是算過了才做的這樣的一個要求啦"},{"start":21178.414,"end":21206.594,"text":"對你有沒有困難 就是如果動3億 然後你趕快把這個3階完成 趕快剪裁有沒有影響到謝謝喔 張委員 我們一般預算喔大概我們都盡量是 我們當然是下個會期3、4月就可以把預算解凍但是這個預算的話 我們凍結的部分大概都不會超過最多不會超過五分之一啦 大概都以10%為標準那這一部分大概8億啦 我們就凍結五千萬好不好"},{"start":21208.934,"end":21233.043,"text":"英明瑞士的主席已經這樣接你那就洞前問前就請我們中油公司董事長針對三接外推455公尺造成了海流漁民的那個生計部分請你們趕快處理因為他們已經跟你們說明也抗議了很久我們希望在你三接在這個三四月要運轉的時候要測試的時候不要再有抗爭"},{"start":21233.743,"end":21237.264,"text":"30案動5000萬30跟31案共動5000萬好我們現在來處理30案到31案我們就凍結5000萬書面報告好"},{"start":21253.976,"end":21281.568,"text":"接下來是三十二案到四十三案請說明三十二到四十三案是有關於探勘費用那編列的是七十七億那委員所關心的就是探勘費用在去年的執行率偏低同時在自主遊園的部分也能夠提高那我想說明那麼今年所編的七十七億的預算是沒錯是比去年來講是增加了十七億"},{"start":21282.848,"end":21297.988,"text":"主要增加的原因我們是希望在今年在地熱的攤勘部分量能要去加大另外在現有的礦區像在印尼還有在澳洲的礦區能夠"},{"start":21301.272,"end":21322.996,"text":"也能夠加速了它這個專井碳油另外最重要就是說新增的礦源包括在澳洲以及在美國我們也希望能夠爭取到新的油源那麼我們所編的預算是照目前的規劃來去編的這個預算那麼來去執行也希望委員們能夠支持"},{"start":21326.158,"end":21338.663,"text":"那麼經過拜訪委員幾位委員有表達意見第38案楊委員同意改為主決議另外第41案陳昌明委員也同意改為主決議另外第36 42跟43委員同意改成書面報告以上說明請就議委員"},{"start":21355.831,"end":21375.046,"text":"好 謝謝主席董事長我想請您再說明一下就是說你們今年新編的這個77億你確定今年可以執行完嗎你剛剛講的這幾項大計畫的主要預算分配大概是怎麼樣的配置有嗎我請湯執行長說明一下"},{"start":21378.369,"end":21405.188,"text":"委員好 謝謝委員指教簡單報告一下其實除了過去經常性的持續性的業務部分基本上編列的是差不多以外主要是增加在兩個區塊一個是在取得新的那個自有能源的部分這部分增加大概是加了幾億另外一個是主要是要加大地熱碳侃的這部分這部分增加了十幾億所以這邊合起來大概到了20多億"},{"start":21406.423,"end":21433.925,"text":"所以整體比較去年來講會增加了大概是23億左右簡單做一個說明這個部分我們再另外用書面的書面再提供給委員好那個原則上我可以改成主決議啦就不動你們的預算那我覺得碳勘這件事情因為你們現在做了幾個新的包括地熱啦包括其他的新的油泉這件事情我覺得"},{"start":21436.166,"end":21463.382,"text":"我應該給你們鼓勵啦所以我想這個還是給你們給予你們適當的支持啦那至於就是說你們這些碳產事業部有一些在海外的這些同仁其實在那邊工作環境相對辛苦我認為該給他們的這一些福利加給這個還是請中友你們要去顧慮到這一塊是 是 遵照辦理好 那我們先請張季凱委員我提案這39案"},{"start":21466.075,"end":21481.466,"text":"提了要減累五億跟凍結三億元的原因是因為是人命關天地熱當然現在我們鼓勵你們要盡量盡量去開發因為到目前我看那個能源佔比很低嘛現在是0.06億連1%連0.1%都要不夠這個是要加強可是有一個事情非常重要很重要的我現在講"},{"start":21489.352,"end":21510.988,"text":"我們現在在處在那個環太平洋火山地震帶嘛對不對 對我們這階段是很平凡的啦你現在這個大屯山這邊你現在開採的方式都是用那個增強型的增強型的那個開花嘛現在看起來就是這個有助於地熱這個熱能的這個獲取可是呢 也可能引發"},{"start":21512.827,"end":21538.416,"text":"地震的發生嘛這在日本在美國、韓國都有這種歷史嘛所以在美國、在韓國他們都很注意很注意這個事情在探勘的時候他們加強他的防災跟自災嘛對不對你們在點頭所以我現在我可以把這個這是我辦公室在討論的時候他們說這個非常重要所以才會提到說要減淚5億到凍結3億我可以把減淚這部分先拿掉可是這個事情一定要注意好不好那你們在這個大概"},{"start":21540.037,"end":21547.513,"text":"一個月內提出怎麼樣向美國向韓國就是你們在特別是在大屯山你們在探勘的時候"},{"start":21548.693,"end":21575.004,"text":"這個地熱的事情你們到底要怎麼去防災跟治災給我一份報告一個月的話如果這個能夠說服大家我覺得這個是非常重要的人命關天做好報告我們再解凍這筆錢好不好那檢內部分先拿掉好 針對我們海外這整個探勘我們的油田這部分我們自己設定的目標大概在10%到現在還沒有到達這個目標我們希望我們在這個投資上面重新做個檢討讓我們的效益都能夠發揮因為我們在鄰近海域"},{"start":21578.425,"end":21599.84,"text":"以這個探勘都沒有成果 已經虧損了31億了在這個部分我們請你們再精進一點 好不好好 陳婷妃委員也有提案請陳婷妃委員謝謝主席 其實我們要強調是說"},{"start":21601.775,"end":21627.731,"text":"你增加這 因為我們有看嘛 這個比113年度這個是增加了13億嘛6736那當然有說明說可能我們是在這個國內外陸海域的油氣第二探勘跟探風船的工作嘛那這些已經都有方向了嘛否則你預算怎麼變有方向"},{"start":21630.987,"end":21643.933,"text":"你要不要說明一下是什麼方向就是說這幾樣13億所增加的13億6736萬都已經找到點了而且知道要怎麼探勘了是今年也一定會執行"},{"start":21645.811,"end":21665.762,"text":"首先我報告地熱這個區塊目前我們在土廠正在建置地熱電廠總量大概5.4MW另外在宜蘭園山目前正在鑽一口園山一號井 井深4000米我們預定會在明年的6、7月"},{"start":21668.665,"end":21683.521,"text":"今年的六七月會轉到預定的深度之後呢會就這個專警的一個量來知道這個地底下的一個熱能的量能來去決定這個發電廠那麼要蓋多大的一個發電的量能以及適當的一個地點"},{"start":21684.562,"end":21702.174,"text":"那另外的在花蓮地區啊從瑞穗到玉里我們也已經就地熱的部分已完成了調查現在就這個調查的部分來去解讀那麼在什麼花蓮地區呢哪個區塊呢是比較恰當的那另外呢在這個"},{"start":21703.716,"end":21721.278,"text":"因為這些地熱的部分那麼都需要很大的一個鑽井的量能那我們公司鑽井數並沒有那麼多所以現在在研議從國外來進口這些鑽機希望能夠同步的去推動"},{"start":21722.492,"end":21749.531,"text":"各地區的一個專警這是地熱的部分那麼碳封存的部分剛剛提到就是說在苗栗鐵站山現在有一個碳封存的示範計畫同步我們也在西部濱海地區我們稱它為鹽水層那麼來去看這些鹽水層在碳封存的可行性那麼這個都在同步的進行"},{"start":21752.246,"end":21771.578,"text":"謝謝 因為我相信我們是有計劃但我為什麼會問說那這些預算到底我們是已經確定了一定會執行還是只是一個概括如果依照你們講的是有計劃可是這些預算是概括因為從其實這個灘竿的執行結果其實除了"},{"start":21776.862,"end":21802.161,"text":"112年以外其實我們的執行率都並沒有達到我們預期包括113年其實截至到8月底為止那我不知道現在有沒有增加了多少齊馬到8月底你們的執行說是39.0%那現在呢現在有比較多嗎113年對啊去年啦已經今年已經是114啊對對113年就原預算大概執行70%"},{"start":21804.303,"end":21814.155,"text":"所以70%你原來的就沒有執行完你現在就增加13億是這些計畫所以我才會認為說其實希望我們在編類這個部分不是服編的"},{"start":21821.804,"end":21850.209,"text":"而不是過於 我反而覺得你們應該把這個區塊縮減因為你們有時候就這樣嘛 你在這裡比較遠 你在其他必要的地方你就要減少因為不是你可以隨便沒有一個比例啊所以我會認為說這筆預算我要把它刪減是說 刪減下來你明年應該去考慮應該在你說的 你多出來的這一億兩億你如果移到別的地方可以做更多的事情"},{"start":21851.822,"end":21874.178,"text":"所以我認為我要篩檢這些筆預算兩千萬這不影響他啦 不影響可是我覺得給你們一個警惕說明年這裡不要再編這麼多你要移到別的地方反正這個數就這樣 謝謝好 董事長點頭是可以啦好 我們現在來處理32案到43案第35案 38"},{"start":21880.885,"end":21887.289,"text":"案跟41案改為主決議 那32到43案我們全案減列2000萬 凍結3億書面報告這邊有三筆預算 77億 59億跟56億所以我們全案凍結3億 好 以上那接下來減列2000萬"},{"start":21909.246,"end":21913.849,"text":"我再重新宣告一次32到43案我們減列2000萬凍結3億35跟38跟41案改為主決議現在是44案請說明44案是有關雜項營業成本服務費用那麼這項編列的數是10.45億那麼"},{"start":21934.864,"end":21957.556,"text":"委員所關心的就是我們海外探勘的進度效益我想說明的是這項的預算也跟探勘沒有太多的直接關係它主要是用在我們暫儲、包裝、代理及加工費、旅運費等等還有很重要就是修理、保養、保護費"},{"start":21959.537,"end":21985.575,"text":"所以呢基於就是說實際編列的預算跟去年來比是相比也比較低啦所以希望就是說委員能夠支持這項費用不要刪也不要凍結那至於說委員所提到的海外探勘的這個效益成效的部分我們能夠提供書面資料給委員參考那麼是不是建議改成主決議這樣子"},{"start":21987.15,"end":21996.025,"text":"請張警戴委員給我完整的資料就好 那改為主決議好 44案改為主決議 預算照列第45案請說明"},{"start":21999.372,"end":22017.553,"text":"第45項就是有關於服務費用的公關未到費那麼這項費用其實編列的並不高778萬那麼跟往年所編的預算來比的話事實上是相差不多而且執行率都蠻高的"},{"start":22018.214,"end":22038.444,"text":"那這項費用主要是用在業務推展還有對於員工、婚喪、賀儀、傷病慰問這些費用那麼但是這個委員所關心的這個議題主要是關心藻礁生態那麼藻礁生態這個議題呢當然我們也很關心那我們建議呢是不是這項這個項目"},{"start":22043.891,"end":22062.868,"text":"好那是是那剛剛聽到說委員已經同意說改成組決議沒有等一下我會處理請突宣級委員好謝謝主席那這剛剛是有溝通過啦那因為之前我們有針對我們當初我們蔡總統去三接的時候就有講說要對於生態"},{"start":22064.83,"end":22075.744,"text":"還有我們藻礁的保育要成立一筆基金10億的基金那之前我們是說因為這講了很久都沒有做那後來我們就是要求說這筆基金"},{"start":22076.618,"end":22097.453,"text":"不但要編列 那時候已經有提過逐年編列 分五年來編列那現在也看到可是我們重點說希望針對這筆 因為其實大家也知道整個全台灣桃園藻礁的覆蓋率桃園大概七成到八成那當然新北 屏東也有那我們認為說這筆基金上面"},{"start":22100.595,"end":22116.177,"text":"沒有很明確的規範它用在全台灣那你用在全台灣跟這個藻礁生態保育基金其實是有一點出入你這應該專款專用它居然是為了保護藻礁那你去用在沒有藻礁的地方就有點奇怪"},{"start":22116.707,"end":22137.873,"text":"那後來我們說希望藉由這部分我們一定要還是要針對比較明確一點針對這筆基金它的主要用途要能夠明確你不要去做你編一個實例去做全台灣的生態保育基金你又不是環境部對不對這環境部做的工作我們應該沒有必要去做這個應該是專管專用"},{"start":22139.373,"end":22168.573,"text":"所以这部分后来我们是沟通过同意转组决议但是我希望还是要针对我们后面这基金的部分这个范围及用途一定要能够明确针对这笔钱它是生态藻礁保育基金就一定要用在这专款的用途上不要编了实意就去做了一些跟藻礁没有关系的事情那这部分先转组决议可是后面基金的部分我们还是要去谈一下好 谢谢"},{"start":22169.053,"end":22169.155,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":22170.481,"end":22199.1,"text":"所以陀螺岩這個改組決議 同意了那請你簽名那要跟董事長講 這個藻礁是千年的藻礁他沒有辦法移地去復育 一定要在原來的地方那因為他就在海邊 那個整個海流的流向也會影響藻礁的生存所以這邊請我們的工程團隊多注意一下好 那第45案改成組決議預算照列然後第46案到47案請說明"},{"start":22203.428,"end":22205.673,"text":"這兩項是有關於管理費用的服務費用"},{"start":22209.127,"end":22231.034,"text":"委員提案的所關心的就是希望公司在物料的管理要去加強那另外就是台資電投資的一個可行性那麼對於這項服務費用來講主要是用在總公司水電的修理費還有會計師等固定的費用"},{"start":22234.657,"end":22254.014,"text":"這個所編的預算應該是已經核實了那麼希望能夠不要刪也不要動那至於說委員所關心的有關加強物料的管理這個我們會去做加強性的一個措施另外對於台積電的投資可行性"},{"start":22254.875,"end":22277.152,"text":"那因為這個案子目前是在公司董事會是已經通過然後現在在行政院的審查當中那麼公司是認為公司有未來有綠電的一個需要同時這個投資計畫也有它一定的效益因此我們是建議去實施目前在行政院審查當中好 請張季楷委員"},{"start":22280.214,"end":22307.657,"text":"我提了這個47跟50我一起講台市那個我前幾天剛剛請教的那個部長嘛就是國營事業包括那天談的中鋼今天的中油事實上連高鐵都要進去的中華電信那我提的事實上我不是反對你們去買綠電不是反對買綠電我覺得可是有兩點一定要做到第一個就是不能買太貴第二個更重要的"},{"start":22308.357,"end":22335.084,"text":"一定要有合約你們才能去買不然弄到後來是別人沒有買弄到全部到貨到給這個中鋼或者是中油那這樣就會賠錢我要的是這兩個這兩個重要的保證所以我才會提到就是說當然部長現在站上來了啦那個你那天有提到就是說中鋼他有一個權利嘛你說你責成中鋼的董事長總經理跟他們的工會去討論嘛他們如果不同意的話就中鋼就不投資嘛那中油想有這個權利嗎"},{"start":22336.104,"end":22359.639,"text":"完全都是有同樣道理因為我們不是一個國營的公司不是要成立一個國營的公司而是成立一個平台讓有需要綠電的一些公司都可以上來然後他可以扮演股東的角色那他也可以得到這個公司這個公司不是現在先建立平台未來"},{"start":22360.76,"end":22386.011,"text":"他可能還是有一些可能要去購電的這樣的一個需求購電的目的是要服務我們國內的這些比較小的公司或者是綠電需求不斷在增加的公司那因為台電他扮演這個綠電但是他要照顧全民所以我們對這種所謂的綠電需求那這些公司我們國營的我們先讓他進來"},{"start":22387.352,"end":22414.993,"text":"他隨時可以退出如果說我因為我是先辦辦官股但是未來他完全是民營的公司也就是說我現在在建立一個未來的台積電那你認為要不要讓他參加這個就是我們的目的我們希望他這個公司剛開始先只是做綠電的買賣未來是做能源的"},{"start":22416.55,"end":22426.116,"text":"能源的公司他是一個能源的公司來照顧國內的中小微對未來能源的需求的一個公司那他先建立這個平台"},{"start":22426.98,"end":22452.67,"text":"是這個樣子 跟委員報告部長 我看了資料齁 他真正開始要買店的這個買賣啊是三年後的事情嗎這三年要先 最初要先休息三年嗎沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":22453.018,"end":22460.691,"text":"我們現在可以買到電隨時都可以這個我們只要沒有沒有沒有應該是三年後是不是馬上可以買得到嗎"},{"start":22463.615,"end":22484.874,"text":"跟委員報告就是因為大量的就是你剛剛說的大量的離岸的風電要等到離岸風電上來才買不過在那個之前如果有些小的這個是可以這個只要隨時而且可以跟委員報告因為它的人數其實現在大概就是很大概人數的很少所以大概委員擔心的那個前面燒錢的事情也不會也不會存在這樣"},{"start":22485.214,"end":22491.098,"text":"為什麼會3.1就是你們現在買的最主要限定在風電那風電3-1跟3-2級它真正開始運轉可以賣電給你要3.1我們不一定會買風電我們不一定會買風電你連光電都買嗎我們連光電也會買地熱"},{"start":22501.306,"end":22514.302,"text":"因為我們是做能源服務的公司不是為了風電而去處理這件事情所以可能是在他在這個設計的時候並沒有考慮到那麼詳細"},{"start":22517.586,"end":22546.419,"text":"不過我在這邊可以跟委員報告這個是我們完全負責任為的是國內的中小微企業綠電的需求所以RE100雖然2027年才開始但是對不起我們現在已經有民間的在反映那個需求RE30它就需要了嘛所以我們還是要服務它再來就是我們要讓這個綠電的價格不會高漲如果說我現在沒有這樣的一個機制在那個地方"},{"start":22547.54,"end":22575.687,"text":"它的如果供給是不足的需求是成長的這個它價格會一直漲但是我現在有一個平台在這裡它是不敢漲的部長今天講的是一個新的齁因為之前我們聽到都是只有買風電嘛你今天就很明確講就是包括光電或者是地熱全部只要是再生能源全部都會所以它就不會等到說風電的第三之一跟三之二等到三年後這段時間有些就可以先買先賣了就"},{"start":22576.087,"end":22599.557,"text":"那一部分可能就是以而傳而啦這就很明確的把它定下來那可是還是有兩個問題嘛一個就是我們的很多放工營的進來包括剛剛在講的這個中油這個我們都有退場機制啦我們都會讓他有退場機制怎麼樣有退場機制我就是將來這家公司一定會IPO一定會IPO所以他們可以退場"},{"start":22601.26,"end":22630.272,"text":"所以不會出現外界很擔心的就是到時候你的中小企業店沒賣出去然後到貨到給中油或者是我們認為這個就是有點杞人憂天啦也許我們沒有說明的很清楚我們認為我們可能沒有說明的很清楚所以造成大家看的時候或者了解的時候沒有完全了解我們的初衷啦但是我們的初衷政府的立場就是一定要幫助所有的企業一定要幫助所有的企業解決它"},{"start":22631.845,"end":22648.336,"text":"綠電的問題是的所以部長能夠這樣很明確的表達一下我就是先動了三千萬的預算你看這幾十億我只動了三千然後等整個跟外界講得非常清楚的時候我們再解凍這筆預算可是我還是要提醒第一個不要買太貴我昨天就已經提了部長"},{"start":22649.156,"end":22674.978,"text":"如果台積電五塊都不買你就不能去買超過五塊的去年的等過的價格是4.5你就不要去買到一個比外面平均價格更高的4.5進來這是一個第二個你剛剛一直在講說外界的那個中小企業要我一直在提你要先確認他們跟你簽了契約不是簽MOU到時候你像東和你一直在講說東和鋼鐵要買對不對東和鋼鐵到昨天為止媒體去問他他說都還沒有定案啊"},{"start":22675.518,"end":22703.49,"text":"你們現在對他說有六家嘛大家就要問啊連電看起來是比較正面在回應欸東河鋼鐵都到現在都沒有很明確的所以有人在開玩笑啦他說如果是真的大家都用到那應該是從業進去你是從業創辦人欸應該從業創辦人去叫從業進去幫忙經營可以嗎我可以叫他進去嗎如果今天是個好的好事情大家認為說這個不是不是圖利從業的話我可以叫他進去嗎這個有風險喔你如果覺得真的好的話你如果"},{"start":22705.965,"end":22714.123,"text":"創辦人可以啦你現在已經退出公司的經營嘛對不對如果真的這麼好如果真的這樣是好的如果您同意我說從業可以進去沒有問題喔"},{"start":22716.431,"end":22735.435,"text":"部長你不要跳出這個陷阱裡面明天就換黃國昌來罵你了不會不會不會如果真的是可以造福全民像你說的可以造福到中小企業都可以買到而且不會買貴的話從業力系投資大家不會怪你報告委員就是不行了部長你不用再回應這個議題了好我們回來審議算來處理46到47案"},{"start":22741.256,"end":22753.843,"text":"那張委員因為你要跟50案併在一起來動3000但是我們先分開來了所以你這一部分動1000萬就好了50案是另外好第46案改為主決議46跟47案我們凍結1000萬書面報告接下來是48案到53案請說明"},{"start":22764.529,"end":22784.622,"text":"48、49案也是有關於研究發展費用主要就是說也是關於我們公司研究發展部分我的關心就是說有關專利申請數以及專利未商轉佔比比較低的"},{"start":22787.364,"end":22805.356,"text":"我們公司在研發費用是投入了前瞻研發費用,包含儲能材料、前瞻電池研究、鋰電池、自成的潛能改善、二氧化碳碳封存研究"},{"start":22806.457,"end":22822.25,"text":"那麼這些研發事實上已經有出具成效了譬如說我們在雙環、霧二溪還有泰酸里都已經在建置適量產的一個工廠我們未來可以逐步再增加營收提高這個附加的價值"},{"start":22823.598,"end":22843.929,"text":"那麼對於這個所編列的預算30億那麼是跟113年度來比是增加了3.28億那主要是我們在研究的項目裡面今年會增加碳纖附材的高壓氫氣瓶這方面的一個性能跟安全測試還有在中油軟碳電池模組的測試以及在電動二輪載具的實測驗證"},{"start":22851.052,"end":22870.649,"text":"這方面來去做努力那這個案子我們有有拜訪的委員其中第48案跟48案這個呂昭偉已經同意改為主決議另外第49案楊委員也同意改成主決議那麼以上說明請張委員還要補充"},{"start":22873.07,"end":22879.797,"text":"不用那我直接處理了好第48案到53案48案跟49案改為主決議那48案到53案我們凍結2000萬書面報告接下來54案請說明"},{"start":22891.747,"end":22900.978,"text":"第54案是有關於我們53案53就是那個霸凌那個事情53案已經過了"},{"start":22903.919,"end":22905.481,"text":"第五四案是有關於租金跟利息所編的143億"},{"start":22926.24,"end":22941.026,"text":"這個編143億交113年為增加主要原因是我們考慮中央銀行升息的關係以及我們今年的付息負債的金額也提高那麼何時去預估是需要編列143億那麼也誠請委員能夠同意以上"},{"start":22949.568,"end":22970.268,"text":"好第54案我們預算照列接下來是55案到59案請說明有關這個費用那麼我想幾個委員所關心的就是在公安希望能夠落實能夠降低職災那麼"},{"start":22973.77,"end":22999.846,"text":"所編列的預算呢6億3千8那主要是要維持我們公司的各項設備的性能跟安全性那麼如果說這個希望維持他的安全性跟他性能來避免一些潛在的公安危險所以呢為了支持這公安相關的一個檢查呢那麼也建請各位委員能夠支持改成組決議"},{"start":23002.093,"end":23028.644,"text":"好 請圖圈級委員好 謝謝主席那針對這部分 我們中油自己的數據都有顯示這個藻礁保育覆蓋率是越來越差 而且是數據上顯示都是一直在下降所以針對我們這個觀音藻礁生態復育的部分 那我覺得"},{"start":23030.427,"end":23052.703,"text":"還是要需要在地方我們再召集民間的學者我們再去開個說明會第一讓他們了解一下我們將來到底後面要怎麼去做因為現在數據上我們針對這個保育的工作其實數據上是真的成效是很差而且是一直在減少所以真的就像他們當初說"},{"start":23053.864,"end":23075.479,"text":"這做這三接一定會影響而且我們自己做出來的數據也是越來越差那現在我們針對這部分應該要去解除他們的疑慮然後跟他們大家來溝通大家及時廣義一下是怎麼樣子把這個藻礁的覆蓋率能夠再來提升不然現在看到這個藻礁是一直在減少所以針對這部分那"},{"start":23076.66,"end":23093.506,"text":"我們溝通過也同意下去開協調會那我們就轉組決議是沒問題那我希望說這部分我們還是要落實去做這個保育的工作真的很重要那我不但要持續的監測那如何讓這個藻礁的覆蓋率能夠提升"},{"start":23094.161,"end":23121.19,"text":"我們大家來溝通一下然後地方也有很多好的意見所以請下去大家開一個協調會來溝通一下好 謝謝圖文請張旗開委員71案是關西道中游的高雄這個洲際天然氣的接收站就是七階現在環評過了那可是沒有辦理這個二階段的這個環評所以高雄大林埔大林埔市長 張委員我的是55到59案"},{"start":23122.568,"end":23151.213,"text":"他不是已經在講72號抱歉抱歉抱歉抱歉好那先打斷了先停止等一下再來謝謝那土匪你的建議是那有溝通就是我們請我們中油要下去地方那我到時候會召集"},{"start":23151.96,"end":23170.055,"text":"民間的學者跟地方的人士那就請我們中原這邊來配合到地方開個協調會大家集思廣益他們有很多好的意見我們來採納一下目前我們看到這個覆蓋率真的是越來越差那是57 58 59都改組決議嗎那58 59的部分我們各凍結五千萬因為這是逐年編列嘛那因為"},{"start":23178.742,"end":23203.08,"text":"當初我們就有針對我們基金的諮詢委員我們地方上然後大家溝通我們對諮詢委員其實我們是很有意見啦因為我不知道為什麼找對藻礁不是很有善的來做藻礁保育我覺得這部分一直沒有辦法解決大家的疑慮你像當初我們的監察人詹順貴他對這個藻礁他說"},{"start":23206.987,"end":23233.058,"text":"讓中南部居民受更大的空乎保護藻礁那也說蓋三接一定會破壞藻礁 這說法上大有問題那我覺得這做基金的諮詢委員對藻礁不是很有善 結果找這些委員來做保護藻礁 我不知道當初為什麼會有這樣子的方法 那我們要保護藻礁"},{"start":23234.315,"end":23237.729,"text":"對這些環保議題然後對藻礁是很友善的所以"},{"start":23238.24,"end":23267.832,"text":"我們也希望我們先凍結五千萬因為剛才有溝通嘛 目前這筆錢因為可能要到下半年度才用得到所以這兩億基本上兩億來講基本上先凍結五千萬基本上對我們運作上是不會有大的問題那我們希望針對這個委員的部分到時候我們大家再來溝通因為地方上市府環保局等等他們也希望說能夠盡量多推一些在地"},{"start":23268.359,"end":23281.565,"text":"保護藻礁的人士來共同參與我們藻礁保育基金的這些工作我覺得這應該是會對對我們藻礁保育應該是比較良善的好那所以針對這部分我們就先凍結然後"},{"start":23288.98,"end":23313.514,"text":"報委是不是57案就不要凍結改為主決議我們大家有溝通過啦 那我們也希望我們照著去做那我們也各退一步啦 那本來各凍結1億那我們就各凍結5000萬然後希望針對我們生態保育這部分"},{"start":23314.675,"end":23328.437,"text":"還有我們委員的部分我們再來溝通協調一下希望綜合大家的意見不然你這個委員裡面我們去查他們的歷史記錄這些委員對藻礁保育都不是很友善"},{"start":23329.042,"end":23351.085,"text":"那難免大家對這個委員的成員確實有相當大的疑慮我們還是要來溝通一下好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 我們都是為了要降低這個整個公安意外的發生讓我們職場上能夠在防護業務上都能夠做得更好來降低職災的發生率我們也希望忠義公司能夠對公安管制能夠加強改善"},{"start":23351.485,"end":23359.816,"text":"好不好 那我們55案到59案再57案改成主決議那我們全案凍結5000萬書面報告好 接下來是60案58 59是一起嗎好"},{"start":23368.516,"end":23384.283,"text":"對 全部一起5859是各凍結五千萬我們一併處理啦一併處理五千萬對 各凍結五千萬然後我還要說明一下一併處理五千萬好 那我們要再說明一下還有這個名稱的部分我們要希望我剛剛有講一下專款專用我們這個是"},{"start":23387.904,"end":23415.823,"text":"利益在藻礁保育基金不要把这重点放在全国的生态上面我又讲说你全国生态是环境部做的不是我们这基金要做的我们这藻礁保育基金我希望这名称还有我们基金的咨询委员这部分我们好好的讨论一下那希望针对这部分我们再演绎一下专款专用针对藻礁保育来去做不要去做到全国的生态这跟这笔基金是没有关系的"},{"start":23416.647,"end":23443.87,"text":"好 謝謝我們55到59案就凍結5000萬57案改為主決議書面報告接下來請六十案請說明六十案是有關於進口原油成本的部分那委員提案是關心我們進口的原油呢在現貨跟常約的比例那麼經過這個我們跟陳昌明委員溝通以後呢那委員已經同意了改為主決議"},{"start":23448.48,"end":23455.306,"text":"60案改為主決議 預算照列 接下來是轉投資的計畫 61案到64案請說明這61到64呢 主要委員關心"},{"start":23460.089,"end":23476.839,"text":"是中東地區的一個地緣政治的風險那麼以及這些風險要有做適當的管控那我做以下說明那我們中東地區的這個左邊的預算12.25億那主要是中東地區天然氣投資計畫從112年起它是114年是一個延續計畫"},{"start":23482.867,"end":23509.38,"text":"那麼114年所編列的股款這個12.25億是全數都是股款那麼由於根據合約公司有支付股款的責任如果是支付不足的話會違約所以我們建議這個預算免於凍結改成主決議那麼其中第61案陳超明委員同意改為主決議"},{"start":23510.393,"end":23519.278,"text":"那麼委員所關心的有關地緣政治的風險等等的公司會加以做風險管控以上說明好那就是"},{"start":23520.61,"end":23539.819,"text":"好 請邱志偉也發言我跟這個李理委都有提案其他兩位都不在我想這樣聽董事長說明我可以理解那這個如果有凍結的話對你們相關的這個作業會有一些影響所以可以啦我把它改成六三案改組決議好"},{"start":23542.827,"end":23571.718,"text":"好 我們最重要是關心說我們投資在卡達這個部分那因為我們中東的局勢有點混亂為了我們投資的這個整個風險我們要找一個對策的計畫才能夠讓我們原先的預估效益能夠發揮請我們董事長這邊要再加強我們61案到64案61 62 63改成主決議預算照列接下來是重大之建設事業部分"},{"start":23573.839,"end":23593.611,"text":"從65案到76案請說明謝謝65到76案各位委員所提案主要都是關心公司的財務狀況不好這部分我首先要謝謝各位委員對本公司的財務狀況的關心"},{"start":23597.662,"end":23623.163,"text":"那么本公司为了改善经营情况减少支出因此在各位提案以后我们就全面检视盘点这些重大的投资计划来拟定优先顺序以及重新评估每一个案子的供期那么经检讨以后我们认为可以延缓部分的投资计划的施作那么估算"},{"start":23625.144,"end":23651.706,"text":"應該50億元的一個投資清潔呢可以延到以後年度再執行所以呢對於這個賴委員所提議的減劣50億這部分呢我們希望就是我們同意這個按50億的金額去刪減那你要跟賴委員溝通了嗎是是有嗎有跟好這是賴委員提案是好好我們先請陳廷飛委員"},{"start":23654.942,"end":23680.977,"text":"謝謝主席這個就像我剛剛在討論你們所謂的探勘預算一樣我覺得我們的預算其實已經都非常拮据了那你今天那麼大筆預算在這個所謂你們的固定資產建設改良擴充可是畢竟我們從過去你們的資料"},{"start":23681.977,"end":23703.886,"text":"其實執行數都不如百分之百也就是說當中都有一個gap有一個缺口沒有辦法執行的那就是我們在一整年雖然我們想進行可是它畢竟還有很多的因素你還要發包計畫完要發包不是那麼簡單而且發包是不是能夠順利"},{"start":23705.407,"end":23729.205,"text":"因為你這個是整個固定資產的一個建設擴充所以我認為說這個其實我有連署要簡列簡列這個51就是說這個部分希望以後變成我們中油的一個警惕就在明年我們要編預算的時候是把這個部分我們自己"},{"start":23730.205,"end":23753.332,"text":"能夠長期的稍微拿捏一下不應該編進去的我們政府實際如果編在其他的地方不是更好嗎是不是更好我們可以做很多事結果我們現在剪裂掉了比如說我們認為應該要剪裂因為你做不到都要剪裂可是如果我們"},{"start":23754.625,"end":23755.025,"text":"董事長這做得到嗎"},{"start":23778.215,"end":23796.353,"text":"剛剛我們陳委員講的減劣50億的部分對還是逐年檢討就減劣50億減劣50億可以可以喔好請邱議員委員來董事長這個你們同意減劣50億喔表示你們原來的這個預算編列是有很多是做不到或者是"},{"start":23797.648,"end":23819.497,"text":"至少今年度沒辦法執行那是不是有一些你們應該要趕快加速可以去做的到現在沒做比如說台積電都已經快蓋好了可是你們旁邊的企業大樓到現在還沒有看到營資那工會也都同意工會也來找我陳情希望中油是不是能夠加速"},{"start":23820.546,"end":23838.976,"text":"去建置那這個也沒有看到在你的預算編列裡頭我不知道它是不是編列在這一個向下但我現在舉例的就是說有一些你們做不到的但是你預算把它編進去然後現在希望我們可以同意你們簡列但是有一些你們應該要趕快加緊腳步去做的"},{"start":23839.997,"end":23864.338,"text":"到現在還沒看到雖然您剛接任董事長沒多久但是你過去是總經理所以有一些相關持續性的計畫您應該是很清楚那這些能不能更積極一點去做我剛剛講到了比如說你們那個雅灣區那邊的招商那邊的大樓的招商也是慢吞吞過去的董事長不積極我希望現在的董事長跟總經理能夠更積極一點"},{"start":23866.344,"end":23885.246,"text":"這個可以做得到嗎?是公務員報告南部企業大樓來講已經加速要進行了那目前呢現在是什麼程度?目前在做基本設計細部設計等等那要拖到什麼時候才會動工?我們希望是在六年內把這個天啊!"},{"start":23886.972,"end":23905.447,"text":"天啊你再講一次因為設計嘛他設計需要花時間啦中鋼已經走了是吧那個國營會中鋼大樓蓋多久要蓋到六年否定有這個可以接受喔你蓋一個企業大樓要蓋六年陳其邁任期都快結束了"},{"start":23908.789,"end":23934.415,"text":"你搞不好下一任市長任期都結束了你們那一棟大樓還沒蓋好太扯了吧我們加速進行主要因為還有一些前置作業啦董事長前置作業我不是叫你現在才做台積電幾年前開始蓋當時你們一併在規劃企業大樓都已經在同步進行你們做不到看看要不要委託"},{"start":23935.799,"end":23950.371,"text":"高雄市政府還是委託哪裡來做嘛委託一個動作比較快的嘛好不好我現在跟你講企業大樓你竟然跟我講說六年以後才能蓋好這我聽不下去啊分期好我們再加速再加速好請邱志偉委員"},{"start":23959.692,"end":23975.521,"text":"這個效率實在要提高 國營事業我們大家都過病的時候 它的效率有待提升所以你應該又告訴委員會一個明確的提升你說6年我們不滿意 那你可以縮短到幾年"},{"start":23977.062,"end":24006.404,"text":"那經費也給你們充裕然後這個加快進行應該這四年應該可以完成吧該待會有需要那麼久嗎這樣好不好這個我們再研議一些更加速的方法那麼再來跟兩位委員做說明這個那我們應該要怎麼樣監督你們呢你們的研議的加速方法研議多久你不要告訴我研議一年然後來告訴我們以後要做五年那還是六年啊"},{"start":24006.98,"end":24032.657,"text":"我們兩個禮拜以內把它研議兩個禮拜以內跟委員報告接下來請張旭凱委員不只那個喔不只那個煉油廠旁邊就是那個切大樓連你們那個雅灣區的招商的部分可不可以都一併來做報告好 OK兩個禮拜請張旭凱委員董事長我先追問一下你這個固定資產建設改良擴充你本來595億"},{"start":24034.958,"end":24051.551,"text":"你減列了50億到底是哪些工程進度落後還是哪些工程你現在要延緩一口氣50億到底是哪些地方出了問題是要減少還是進度落後我請我們黃副總說明一下"},{"start":24056.698,"end":24082.448,"text":"報告委員 那我們有幾個計畫 第一個就是台中三期的一個擴建計畫 兩個海管就是永安到同宵以及通宵到海管那另外還有我們那個新市區的部分那因為還在跟高雄市政府討論減碳的議題所以進度協會往後 還有一般建築及設備加起來大概就是50億"},{"start":24083.568,"end":24086.072,"text":"預算應該是我們在兩年前就兩年前編的啦兩年前就編的喔"},{"start":24100.95,"end":24116.208,"text":"因為最 不是啊 行政院最後開始審你們的應該也是五、六月啊你是最近這半年來出現了五十億的落差市長是因為需要溝通啦 所以就會往後市長 落後的事 不然你這些變數 這五十億的變數都出現在這半年啦"},{"start":24116.448,"end":24132.261,"text":"所以跟委員報告應該就是基本上就是那個新四期的計畫那行政院核定了以後因為他有個前提要求說要跟高雄市政府要去要去再談關於空污減量的部分那因為這個談就會使得原來已經核定的計畫就會往後延"},{"start":24132.961,"end":24156.676,"text":"所以這個是一個很大的一個部分所以才說所以如果看起來就有可能今年就沒有辦法就今年只能做一些前置的一些作業他沒辦法去真正進行發包啦或是說這些東西所以他大概有很大比的預算現在是兩部分啦就是半年內你本來提出要爭取的50億突然自己要拿掉這是一個很大的問題啊第一個以後你們如果真的已經發現不行要趕快跟我們講我們審預算的時候還看了老半天"},{"start":24157.476,"end":24176.173,"text":"因為預算好就是今年的預算是在去年的八月的時候八月後就送到立法院來那事實上大概我們經濟部審完後差不多六月的時候就縱行這個那這個新世界計畫是在後頭才核定然後有這麼一個但書要求要去做最近四五個月裡面發生的事情就對了啦"},{"start":24177.934,"end":24196.539,"text":"我來問那個七十一案是不是七十一 現在可以講了對不對英明對市的主席 七十一案可以講嗎現在到七十六案 到七十六我講七十一案 七十一案是這個高雄的做進去天然氣接收的 七階啦你環評剛過 可是沒有做那個二階環評"},{"start":24197.981,"end":24225.583,"text":"現在高雄的大林埔的基民有在抗議嘛所以我先凍結我不要凍四億啦我凍五千萬好了凍五千萬你做兩件事情第二趕快跟民眾要溝通好不好你這個七街跟民眾民眾現在是有抗議嘛你跟他溝通要化解他們的餘力第二個你在一個月內把這個報告給我還是要解決問題的這筆錢因為不是只有我我看民進黨這個高雄的高雄的這個立委也有也有提案嘛對不對不是齊凱"},{"start":24227.245,"end":24240.257,"text":"瑞隆有提案嗎你這個錢好像是在595億的大象裡面對不對剛剛那個曾慶愷委員提到的這個部分所以我們是全部檢定有7億我們在講第71案的部分那個是28億7700萬另外一個案子跟瑞隆提的那個2千就是那個"},{"start":24246.002,"end":24256.128,"text":"固定投資計劃的那個專案計劃繼續計劃LEE201啦LEE201不是我的意思是說你的這個91億的這個形式在595億的大框架裡面啦剩下595億的大框架我們是減列50億"},{"start":24263.152,"end":24265.434,"text":"那針對我們73岸因為他這有有要做第二條海底輸氣管線那其實針對我們"},{"start":24291.906,"end":24318.784,"text":"很多漁民說三接外推之後已經嚴重影響漁獲目前也一直在跟我們中游這邊溝通協調他們也一直醞釀要抗爭但是我們希望還是跟我們這邊大家好好溝通協調那現在又針對三接外推的部分影響漁獲都還沒有處理好現在他們又聽說要再興建第二條海體梳氣管線"},{"start":24319.56,"end":24345.496,"text":"是通宵到永安嘛對所以這部分我們也希望跟我們地方加開兩場地方說明會然後到時候再提出書面報告那你看剛剛也打電話來有很多民眾對於這些問題三接還有剛剛我們提藻礁還有現在這第二條書氣管線我們希望地方我們把這個管道"},{"start":24345.956,"end":24371.986,"text":"能夠做完善的溝通所以藉由我們這邊來開協調會開說明會希望我們用比較正確大家用和平的方式來處理但是我也希望說我們主管單位真的要好好的來溝通針對他們提出的影響漁獲的問題還有山階對地方的影響現在馬上要再做第二條海底輸氣管線我覺得這部分我們先凍結5%"},{"start":24373.544,"end":24391.056,"text":"然後針對我們這幾個問題剛剛前面的協調會我們要開那針對這個新建的工程我們一樣再加開兩場地方說明會報告你是不是我是建議是不是也是併在一起至於說委員講說要開說明溝通我們照辦主席會處理"},{"start":24392.725,"end":24418.527,"text":"好大家都很關心那個我們從通宵到大潭電廠這個第二海管線最重要海管線的話你要拉過去的話會影響整個生態環保團體都在抗議他們都有這個疑慮尤其是漁民他們的漁獲量也減少這一方面的整個生態跟環保我們請我們董事長你在這邊的話要加強看怎麼樣去改善好不好好那現在我們就來處理"},{"start":24421.297,"end":24441.922,"text":"65案到76案我們全案減列50億另外再凍結1000萬書面報告好 接下來77案到78案請說明報告主席抱歉一下因為剛剛有一點疑慮就是我們58 59因為說凍5000萬我是58凍5000萬 59凍5000萬"},{"start":24448.294,"end":24474.72,"text":"是各動五千萬不是因為他有跟我協調我有簽喔好對啊這個副總應該知道我們簽是各動五千萬我這簽是各動五千喔有寫喔沒錯那個圖委員剛剛協調的話他主張是兩個案子要同一個科目各動五千那這個我們是可以行的"},{"start":24476.021,"end":24493.677,"text":"你現在5859的話他的經費是兩億你各動五千就一億了欸我動了二分之一欸欸你是同一個案子捏你是同一個科目捏你是同一個科目兩億各動五千那不就動一億了嗎那你怎麼會答應呢你怎麼會答應啊連主席都問你這個問題對啊"},{"start":24496.099,"end":24519.401,"text":"我想因為剛剛那個圖表其實它有說明因為這個預算的動資的話目前還在海保署審查當中所以一定通過這個基金的話最快也是上半年才會通過所以今年來講事實上只剩下半年的時間可以支持因為有協調過基本上是好那如果你們是這個態度我們不用在這裡捍衛你們的預算了"},{"start":24522.111,"end":24532.617,"text":"那就兩億全部凍結啊等海保署通過以後再來凍支啊我們在這裡幫你捍衛預算然後你這樣子同意人家然後你跟我說上半年根本不會用到搞什麼嘛哪有人這樣子凍預算的然後你們自己還去同意人家我們還在這裡幫你講話當我們三個是瘋子跟傻子嗎"},{"start":24552.377,"end":24577.371,"text":"來 區委員請坐下 主席來馬上處理連主席都覺得你們這樣子同意很奇怪 然後你現在竟然這樣子回答我那以後你們的預算 你們哪一條6月以後才能開始做的6月以後再來解凍就好了 現在全部都凍結可以這樣嗎你可以同意我這個提議嗎你如果可以同意的話 我現在全部每一個案都是這樣你們6月以後才要做 6月以後再來凍結再來解凍"},{"start":24581.874,"end":24585.475,"text":"剛剛已經公佈了65到76案的處理"},{"start":24608.052,"end":24636.108,"text":"就是減列50億凍結1000萬書面報告接下來77案到78案請說明77案是我們一般建築及設備這個計畫編列171億那麼主要委員所關心的就是在我們南部高廠那邊的宿舍紅藝宿舍的有關電所供應方面的問題"},{"start":24639.5,"end":24666.632,"text":"那目前就是這個宿舍區它是用工業用戶的高壓電供應那麼因為現在工業用戶的高壓用電比一般住戶的用電要貴所以他們所分攀的電費就比較高所以這些居民他們就訴求說你要用一般的住戶的用電來去收費所以這個目前在市政府"},{"start":24667.472,"end":24684.249,"text":"居民鄰里還有我們公司跟台電正在協調這件事情如何去解決它那這個議題主要是包括三個區塊就是在屋內的電線跟屋外道路上的電線以及在公用區的用電那麼"},{"start":24687.092,"end":24695.999,"text":"中油公司跟住戶之間如何去分攤這些電費目前還在協調當中那麼至於委員這邊提出來就說要凍結3億的部分"},{"start":24698.735,"end":24724.052,"text":"我是建議就是說事實上這個議題還是在繼續的在持續的溝通跟協調當然我們也希望趕快有一個決定那麼跟這個預算的編列其實沒有什麼太多的直接關係所以建議還是能夠免於凍結改成主決議好我們就來直接處理77案到78案預算照列接下來處理主決議79案"},{"start":24726.889,"end":24734.194,"text":"通過80案通過81案通過82案通過83案通過84案通過85案通過86案通過87案通過88案通過89案通過90案通過91案"},{"start":24757.525,"end":24761.51,"text":"這個陳委員好像已經同意撤案了好91案撤案"},{"start":24777.593,"end":24795.341,"text":"92案同意辦理通過93案遵照辦理通過94案遵照辦理通過95案遵照辦理通過96案遵照辦理通過97案遵照辦理通過98案遵照辦理通過99案遵照辦理通過100案遵照辦理通過101案遵照辦理通過102案遵照辦理通過"},{"start":24804.036,"end":24812.283,"text":"103案 遵照辦理通過104案 遵照辦理通過105案 遵照辦理通過106案 遵照辦理通過107案 遵照辦理通過108案 遵照辦理通過109案 遵照辦理通過110案 遵照辦理通過111案 遵照辦理通過112案 遵照辦理通過"},{"start":24828.686,"end":24830.809,"text":"113 遵照辦理通過 114 遵照辦理115 遵照辦理114 通過115 遵照辦理好 通過請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":24845.973,"end":24858.943,"text":"宣讀台糖公司協商結論第一案預算照列第二至七案產銷營運計畫凍結300萬元提出書面報告後始的動之第八案預算照列第九案預算照列第十案"},{"start":24860.103,"end":24884.684,"text":"增列500萬元 第11案預算照列本案改為主決議 第12案預算照列 第13案凍結3000萬元提出書面報告後始的動之 第14案預算照列第15案預算照列 第16至25案營業成本凍結3000萬元 提出書面報告後始的動之其中16至18案均改為主決議 第26至29案"},{"start":24888.046,"end":24913.956,"text":"營業費用凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後時的凍資其中29案改為主決議第30至34案其他營業外費用凍結100萬元提出書面報告後時的凍資第35案預算照列本案改為主決議第36案撤案第37至42案預算照列第43案預算照列本案改為主決議主決議部分44案到"},{"start":24915.157,"end":24930.331,"text":"61案均照案通過 62案修正通過 63案 64案照案通過 65案修正通過 66案至68案照案通過 69案修正通過 新增69之1案照案通過"},{"start":24932.622,"end":24947.767,"text":"宣讀中油公司協商結論第一案至第八案凍結兩千萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第九至十七案凍結五百萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資其中第十一案十三案均改為主決議"},{"start":24948.687,"end":24953.691,"text":"第18至21案凍結500萬元提出書面報告後死的動之第22案預算照列第23案照案通過第24案測案第25至28案預算照列第29案預算照列第30、31案油氣輸出費用凍結5000萬元提出書面報告後死的動之第32至43案"},{"start":24971.967,"end":24996.088,"text":"簡列探勘費用2000萬元另凍結3億元提出書面報告後 使得動之其中第35案、38案、41案均改為主決議第44案預算照列本案改為主決議第45案預算照列本案改為主決議第46、47案管理費用向下服務費用凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後 使得動之其中46案改為主決議第48至53案"},{"start":24999.631,"end":25025.311,"text":"其他營業費用凍結2000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資其中48 49案均改為主決議第54案預算照列第55至59案其他營業外費用向下雜項費用凍結5000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第57案改為主決議第60案預算照列本案改為主決議第61至64案預算照列"},{"start":25026.673,"end":25045.421,"text":"其中61至63案均改為主決議第65至76案固定資產建設改良擴充減列50億元科目自行調整令凍結1000萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第77 78案預算照列主決議部分79案至90案均照案通過第91案測案92案至115案均照案通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":25060.345,"end":25077.002,"text":"請問各位同仁有委員提案的部分照剛才宣讀的結論通過沒有提案的部分均照列或是隨同調整請問有無異議好無異議通過通過之決議文字授權主席及議事人員調整"},{"start":25081.023,"end":25104.542,"text":"114年度本會負責審查之附屬單位預算營業部及非營業部均審查完略凝聚審查報告送財政委員會會診本會審查結果需交由黨團協商院會討論時由本席來做說明本日所列議程處理完略謝謝大家現在上"},{"start":25108.17,"end":25108.371,"text":"新郎"},{"start":25137.414,"end":25146.897,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":25161.442,"end":25174.335,"text":"謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"16459","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16459","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d5e814c1e1875e51d9e2506b9d78cd73c529fa0cca45d56273141aae364fd62375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-01-09T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查(一)行政院函請審議「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。(二)委員范雲等17人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。(三)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。(四)委員林宜瑾等27人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。(五)委員蔡易餘等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。(六)委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。(七)委員黃捷等18人擬具「人權紀念場址保存條例草案」案。\n二、審查(一)委員郭昱晴等17人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。(二)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。(三)委員李坤城等19人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。(四)委員張雅琳等23人擬具「不義遺址保存及教育推廣條例草案」案。(五)委員高金素梅等22人擬具「不義遺址保存條例草案」案。\n(第二案之(五)如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；進行逐條審查)）","type":"Full","date":"2025-01-09","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-01-09T08:30:31+08:00","end_time":"2025-01-09T12:57:00+08:00","duration":15989,"影片長度":"04:26:29","委員發言時間":"08:30:31 - 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二一一"},{"start":2263.343,"end":2289.89,"text":"九千三百九十万九千三百九十万九千元照列本项通货决议三项第九项国家人权博物馆四一二千零七十五万九千元照列本项通货决议三项第十项国立台湾历史博物馆三一一千七百二十三万八千元照列本项通货决议一项第十一项国立台湾文学院二一六千二百八十六万七千元照列本项通货决议五项二一一百一四年度专注总议策案有关文化博物主管"},{"start":2290.49,"end":2317.824,"text":"國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案審查完略審查結果如下國立文化機構作業基金專案通過決議四項文化發展基金專案通過通過決議五項自一百一四年度行政法人國家表演藝術中心預算案審查完略凝聚審查報告提報院會不許介入黨員協商願意討論時有萬召集委員美齡補充說明審查結果如下國家表演藝術中心一百一四年度預算書案"},{"start":2318.764,"end":2325.71,"text":"除業務總收入原列3310448000元增列500萬元改列為3315448000元本期短處原列2114336000元減列500萬元改列為219336000元外給予均專案通過通過決議六項為114年度行政法人文化內容策進院"},{"start":2342.423,"end":2364.289,"text":"審查完略 凝聚審查報告提報議案不需交由黨團協商因為討論時由萬召集委員美琳補充說明審查結果如下文化內容策進院一百一四年度預算書案照案通過通過決議十一項六一百一四年度行政法人國家電影集視廳文化中心預算人審查完略凝聚審查報告提報議案不需交由"},{"start":2365.589,"end":2390.459,"text":"黨團協商議會討論時由萬昭級委員美玲補充說明審查結果如下國家電影集視聽文化中心一百一四年度預算書案主要業務總收入延列三億九千八百一十七萬二千元增列一百萬元改列為三億九千九百一十七萬二千元本期短數延列四千五百三十九萬七千元減列一百萬元改列為四千四百三十九萬七千元及與軍招案通過"},{"start":2391.559,"end":2405.795,"text":"通過決議三項 七一隊委員要質詢要求提供相關資料 勿違及答覆不分請相關機關借書與書面答覆八 在不影響文藝前提下 授權一時人員因114年度中央政府總議院三案審查報告與黨團協商之犯例處理"},{"start":2407.777,"end":2423.614,"text":"9.114年度中央政府總預算案有關文化部及所屬單位預算案國立文化機構作業基金附屬單位預算案文化發展基金附屬單位預算案行政法人國家表演術中心文化內容測鏡院國家電影及視聽文化中心預算案全部審查完據"},{"start":2424.916,"end":2447.991,"text":"10.本会主审中华民国114年度中政府总预算案公寓预算及非营业基金预算部分均已审查完据有关证识别岁数预算随同以上机关别审查结果调整凝聚审查报告含附财政委员会审查结果需交由党团协商议会讨论时由万昭及委员美林补充说明宣布完毕"},{"start":2458.192,"end":2475.085,"text":"各位委員 因為范雲召委有點受傷 現在去擦藥 所以由我先暫停一下首先請教各位委員 上次會議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":2476.724,"end":2495.604,"text":"若沒有好那我們議事錄確定那我們今天的議程是繼續審查不依依止保存條例草案相關的修正草案總共有12案第一繼續審查行政院函請審議不依依止保存條例草案"},{"start":2497.096,"end":2512.874,"text":"第二继续审查委员范芸等17人拟据不宜遗址保存条例草案第三继续审查委员郭天才等18人拟据不宜遗址保存条例草案"},{"start":2513.755,"end":2542.177,"text":"第四 繼續審查委員林益錦等27人擬拒不義遺址保存條例草案第五 繼續審查委員蔡易瑜等18人擬拒不義遺址保存條例草案第六 繼續審查委員吳佩義等24人擬拒不義遺址保存條例草案第七 繼續審查委員黃婕等18人擬拒人權紀念長址保存條例草案"},{"start":2544.479,"end":2552.141,"text":"8.審查委員郭玉琴等17人米據不依依止保存條例草案9."},{"start":2552.141,"end":2559.124,"text":"審查委員陳培宇等18人米據不依依止保存條例草案10."},{"start":2559.124,"end":2565.667,"text":"審查委員林坤成等19人米據不依依止保存條例草案11."},{"start":2565.667,"end":2570.789,"text":"審查委員張雅玲等23人米據不依依止保存及教育推廣"},{"start":2571.929,"end":2574.632,"text":"第十二案未獲議事處來函則不予審查進行逐條審查"},{"start":2591.653,"end":2617.583,"text":"本案已於113年10月30號詢答完畢新增委員郭玉琴等五個提案版本不再進行詢答並入本次共同審查好那我們先來進行提案說明首先先請范雲委員"},{"start":2626.072,"end":2641.888,"text":"好谢谢以井代主席那转型正义一直是我担任立委的核心关怀不会一直保存也是其中重要的一环那我是立院上一届第一个提出版本的立委我的版本有三大特色第一个特色是"},{"start":2642.408,"end":2662.707,"text":"除了保存不移植也要推动转型正义的教育第二个是保障多元族群的参与涉及原民个案我希望能够另外增加领选的代表第三个是如果因为重大灾害需要紧急修复所有者使用者管理人都应该要提报抢修计划"},{"start":2663.648,"end":2677.424,"text":"轉型正義的目的是一個社會由威權過渡到民主時期後要求國家對大規模侵害人權的事件進行平復和反省而不一致就是國家威權侵害人權的地點"},{"start":2678.285,"end":2696.184,"text":"這些地方正面臨破壞甚至永遠無法修復的困境所以我們急需要一個母法作為比較細緻的法源依據那文化部才能夠依據這樣子的一個母法進行對這些遺址的妥善保存"},{"start":2696.844,"end":2719.979,"text":"沒有記憶就沒有真相也不會有復原和爭議我呼籲我們所有的跨黨派委員不要再企圖操弄威權時期的定義淡化自己的不義那當然我想我們本條例很多人關心原住民族在國民黨威權統治時期受侵害的歷史場景那其他時期的歷史爭議長指在國民黨威權統治時期"},{"start":2724.822,"end":2748.405,"text":"當然一定能夠在這個法當中保存所以其他時期的歷史正義長治已經有文資法底下的相關法規可以保護根本條例並不衝突所以我也要再重申轉型正義不分黨派呼籲朝野一起推動立法保存不移植那我這邊準備了一個我今年到"},{"start":2749.497,"end":2753.14,"text":"那我給大家很簡單的看一下幾秒鐘的影像可以看到這個館他們花多少心力做轉型正義"},{"start":2776.193,"end":2800.027,"text":"這牆上都是受難者的照片下面則是他的一個重要的傷害事件的圖片再往下 請幫忙放一下還有幾張照片這是他入場的地方 這樣各位可以看到他的規模還有其他照片嗎?"},{"start":2801.575,"end":2824.789,"text":"那另外我想在那裡你可以看到就是每位受難者我們只要按一個鍵那他的後代或者是我們其他人都能夠知道當事人的生平故事因為對方不是只是一個受害者他是有活生生有血有肉的人那我用這個影像是要讓大家知道其實智利跟我們一樣他是新興民主國家"},{"start":2825.229,"end":2846.274,"text":"发生这些事情的有些时间甚至比台湾还晚那他的GDP也不如台湾可是当这样一个国家都花这么大的规模做转型正义的话那我们真的需要就是这样的一个母法能够让我们更多的心力放在不一致的保存也能让记忆那让下一代子孙都能知道以上谢谢"},{"start":2857.293,"end":2884.606,"text":"那我先介紹一下在場委員待會請林議警委員做提案說明林議警委員柯之恩委員萬美玲委員林倩琦委員郭育晴委員葉元芝委員陳秀寶委員"},{"start":2886.858,"end":2915.425,"text":"張雅玲委員那個原住民那個誰鄭天才委員高金素美委員洪孟台委員在場我們介紹現場的官員文化部的部長李遠文化部的政務次長王石思原住民組委員會教育文化組專門委員馬樂福樂福杜坦利茂"},{"start":2917.659,"end":2938.476,"text":"教育部學生事務及特殊教育司副司長許家倩國家發展委員會檔案管理局組長陸文玉內政部民政司副司長劉立芳內政部警政署後勤組副組長黃維銘內政部國土署都紀組副組長廖建順"},{"start":2940.56,"end":2955.5,"text":"法務部參事汪南君行政院人權及轉型正義處處長賴俊照好 謝謝好 而且因為剛剛那個我們還沒有介紹到在場委員再來請我們林議警委員做提案說明"},{"start":2963.579,"end":2980.278,"text":"謝主席 各位同仁轉型正義不是特定政黨的議題積極面對國家人權曾經造成的重大傷害是跨黨派立委都應該承擔的責任也是面對歷史與民主最基本的尊重"},{"start":2981.079,"end":3002.049,"text":"去年10月30日我們針對不以一指保存條例展開立法詢答但是國民黨的委員卻接連發言宣稱不以一指的認定不該僅限於1945年到1992年間的威權統治時期應往前追溯到清帝國、日本等政權的統治"},{"start":3003.53,"end":3018.733,"text":"台灣歷經連續的殖民這是歷史的事實殖民創傷必須被修復這也是被肯定的但是轉型正義處理的並不是殖民問題而是國家的人權侵害與暴力"},{"start":3019.514,"end":3027.86,"text":"清帝國是我們的國家嗎?日本是我們的國家嗎?中華民國才是至今統治這塊土地的政權國家的不法與暴力當然要針對中華民國的威權統治做檢討檢討國家暴力和檢討過去的殖民政權是兩回事必須被分開處理"},{"start":3042.389,"end":3068.36,"text":"再者 每一個時期有每一個時期的獨特性不同暴力的形式的檢討與療癒的方式各不相同如大雜匯般不明就裡的將各時期的人權侵害一併納入不以一止保存條例不但對歷史極度不負責任而且破壞轉型正義工作的推進不利於對至今統治台灣的中華民國國家暴力作出檢討"},{"start":3069.62,"end":3084.167,"text":"今天我們有機會審查不義遺址保存條例背後是長年的倡議研究與論述跟很多行政工作的累積建立在這樣深厚的基礎上才能夠負責任地提出這部法"},{"start":3084.847,"end":3102.744,"text":"至於部分委員提到的日本親帝國對人權的迫害一方面本質上與中華民國的國家不法不同另一方面更應當經過研究與論述的累積而不是活輪吞找不分青紅皂白的就要全部塞進不以一止保存條例當中"},{"start":3104.145,"end":3117.057,"text":"最後還是請我們黨的同仁正視中華民國的歷史錯誤而不是到現在還在跟其他的殖民者比爛企圖用其他殖民者的暴行沖淡中華民國的暴行以上"},{"start":3120.9,"end":3148.01,"text":"謝謝林一錦委員那我們現在審查不易移植保存條例草案相關修正草案進行逐條審查請議事院宣讀條文內容並進行討論與協商討論時如有新增還有對不對抱歉那個沒有就是願意的人講一下因為剛剛抱歉抱歉我的錯那鄭天才委員是不是要做提案說明抱歉因為我剛剛只有聽到林一錦委員抱歉"},{"start":3162.959,"end":3188.806,"text":"主席 各位委員 部長 還有文化部的所有的官員我本來沒有想要提案說明本來想說早一點審查 早一點完成但是既然前面兩位 包括召委包括剛才提案說明的委員特別特別特別地強調第一個 說原住民族在台灣這個時"},{"start":3190.68,"end":3205.244,"text":"在這個國土上之前的不義遺址都不是不義遺址說是文化資產保存法就可以去仔細看文化資產保存法怎麼會是文化資產呢不義遺址就是不義遺址啊第二怎麼會說只有中華民國之後呢"},{"start":3219.81,"end":3231.892,"text":"中華民國之前台灣的原住民族在這塊土地上所受到任何一個統治者的侵害這不是侵害嗎這不是不義遺址嗎還有切割怎麼會這樣子切割非常非常的"},{"start":3250.452,"end":3251.712,"text":"難以接受這樣還能審嗎我本來希望很快的審查通過有這麼困難嗎把清朝時候的不義遺址列入進去把日據時代的不義遺址就怎麼樣了嗎就知愛難惜了嗎就要復義了嗎莫名其妙"},{"start":3283.68,"end":3286.441,"text":"把台灣的原住民族放在哪裡我們的痛你們可以知道嗎從斯卡羅事件台灣的原住民族跟美國人打仗接下來牡丹社事件台灣的原住民族為了保護台灣跟日本人打仗"},{"start":3313.932,"end":3335.946,"text":"這個都不叫轉型正義這些都不叫不義遺址一開始為什麼要起這個衝突啊去年的事情每個人 每個委員 諮詢有每個委員的諮詢發言的"},{"start":3340.277,"end":3345.419,"text":"潛力我尊重但是今天是開始審查條文了我們可以到威權統治還是極權統治還是要用什麼我們可以討論嘛怎麼會一開始就去責怪我們的條文呢我的條文也是去年就提了不是今年提的"},{"start":3368.666,"end":3384.895,"text":"所以我希望大家互相尊重原住民族在這塊土地上保護台灣從來都是第一個 以上 謝謝"},{"start":3388.948,"end":3399.413,"text":"謝謝鄭天才委員再來因為高金素美委員的版本沒有獲到議事處來函所以沒有審查但是他已經有提出所以我們讓他也說明一下"},{"start":3408.924,"end":3430.141,"text":"謝謝各位剛剛聽到有一些提案委員的發言其實我有一些心裡面的感觸尤其聽到鄭天才委員的發言我更感到難過大家如果回想起來在前一屆民進黨就欠原住民一個道歉跟一個公道"},{"start":3432.091,"end":3448.076,"text":"當時在立法院的時候我們談轉型正義條例的時候當時在野黨的委員人數少很多我印象非常的深刻在委員會討論轉型正義條例的時候段怡康委員"},{"start":3450.26,"end":3478.515,"text":"還有我們行政院版本把原住民的轉型正義也切割了時間依然是從國民政府來到之前當時我提的轉型正義條例一樣時間點應該是在1895年就是日本殖民政權殖民台灣的時候大家看一下這本書這叫《還我祖靈》"},{"start":3480.003,"end":3494.897,"text":"孟楷手上也有一本書我今天特別帶來那是1930年日據的軍政府如何的對台灣的主人原住民進行三光政策"},{"start":3496.348,"end":3517.36,"text":"我們不僅僅是保衛和為了這塊土地用我們的頭大家看這張照片這個不是劇照這個不是斯卡羅的我們文化部拍的劇照這個是日本隨軍團的攝照師為了要回去"},{"start":3519.037,"end":3536.009,"text":"領他們的戰功 而隨軍拍攝下來的照片這個部分已經由我們的中研院的老師把它整理出非常多的歷史的照片這是一個泰雅族人 也是我的祖先"},{"start":3541.124,"end":3550.749,"text":"在佳陽部落因為要捍衛我們的土地而被日本的軍人用一把非常鋒利的武士刀現場砍斷了我們的頭"},{"start":3556.929,"end":3580.769,"text":"這個難道不是轉型正義而今天我們要談的不易已止我很遺憾我的版本呢也在這個大院的時候被否決掉但是我今天依然提了修正動議我要來談的就是什麼為了反省台灣歷史不同時期統治者為了鞏固"},{"start":3581.926,"end":3600.493,"text":"所謂對人權或族群的侵害事件然後要彰顯它發生的歷史價值以及轉型正義的意義促進多元保存文化要制定這個條例這個條例不僅僅是人權它還有土地權"},{"start":3602.199,"end":3629.873,"text":"待會每一條在談到的時候尤其所謂的不義遺址怎麼可以又切割原住民族怎麼又可以切割台灣的主人原住民族的土地被這些日本政權不義所掠奪的土地呢我感到不可思議原來你們的轉型正義的價值人權的價值只停留在中華民國啊"},{"start":3631.414,"end":3644.946,"text":"而民進黨政府 小英總統跟原住民族道歉 跟原住民族要和解但是你們在法律案上面卻不支持原住民族提的時間點這叫什麼正義 這叫什麼不義以止"},{"start":3651.372,"end":3656.215,"text":"所以今天我們站在這裡在審這個條例的時候審法案的時候請大家不要切割原住民族的人權土地正義以及我們的轉型正義謝謝大家我的修正綜藝的版本應該也已經引到大家的手上了待會竹條的時候我還會再繼續發言"},{"start":3673.485,"end":3684.501,"text":"如果大家有興趣媒體們有興趣可以看一下我今天帶來的兩本書一本在侯孟凱委員的手上一本在我的手上這裡面就是血跡斑斑的歷史以上 謝謝好"},{"start":3689.757,"end":3699.8,"text":"謝謝高金素美委員那我們現在審查不議一致保存條例草案相關修正草案進行逐條審查請議事員宣讀條文內容並進行討論與協商討論時如有新增修正動議請議事員一併宣讀我就下去了"},{"start":3713.706,"end":3736.879,"text":"新增院凡嫌審議不依依之保存條例草案委員范玲等十七人凝聚不依依之保存條例草案委員鄭天才等十八人凝聚不依依之保存條例草案委員林英檢調二七人凝聚不依依之保存條例草案委員蔡易宜等十八人凝聚不依依之保存條例草案委員吳佩玉等十二四人凝聚不依依之保存條例草案"},{"start":3737.398,"end":3738.238,"text":"好待会就不再念了好"},{"start":3753.705,"end":3779.793,"text":"我們從那個名稱開始總共目前有行政院版、范雲等版、鄭天才等版、林一景等版、蔡宇等版、吳佩儀等版、黃婕等版、郭玉琴等版、陳培玉等版、李坤臣等版、張雅玲等版那總共有11個版本那以下我就不再重複有哪些版本了那我們就先從名稱開始那個是柯真委員要發言"},{"start":3781.987,"end":3804.805,"text":"我想从这个名称开始应该会非常多人有意见那我想我们应该先从正名开始因为呢不光是我们还有包括立法院的法治局跟监委都认为不义这个名词听起来是非常负面的而且容易造成反弹而且讲到遗址根据国语词典的定义通常认为是考古学家研究之地"},{"start":3805.445,"end":3830.035,"text":"所以我很直接的建議改成人權事件紀念場域保存條例我覺得這個部分比較是一般大家可以接受的而且我那時候在質詢我們小野部長的時候我記得部長說這個可以再做討論那我覺得面對歷史的真相的確大家都需要面對但是我覺得不應該一開始就在名稱上引起反彈而且監察院曾經在報告中寫說"},{"start":3831.175,"end":3858.346,"text":"就人權侵害事件發生地進行始機點的調查與清查當然是文化部之後就把它變成不義遺址對不起這是文化部自己寫的叫不義遺址雖然這不是在小野部長任內但是文化部自己把它變成不義遺址這是文化部發明的而且我覺得以小野部長的卓越的文字能力是否應該可以考慮改變一個更妥善的字眼"},{"start":3858.666,"end":3885.277,"text":"这个部长这是发挥你的文字的最好的时间而且世界各地没有人用不义这两个字而且在面对很多真相的时候也没有人用这样的一个名词那我还是要强调很多国家在使用转型正义这一词上就会非常遇到很大的困难那经纬范迅日也认同社会的理解是必须要从和解开始有正义的一方必定有不正义的另外一方面"},{"start":3886.017,"end":3913.516,"text":"與其使用不義這個名詞我還是強烈認為人權歷史場域實在是一個更為妥善的一個中性字眼謝謝好 謝謝柯之恩委員那在這邊羅廷維委員好 我想剛剛柯之恩委員的部分我們也非常的認同那基本上大家網路上搜尋一下有人權博物館也有人權委員會但我們更希望在這個部分上能夠用人權事件紀念場域這個部分我們一起來響應謝謝"},{"start":3916.4,"end":3936.801,"text":"那這個部分是那個張雅琳委員我想因為其實不一一指雖然之前大家剛有提到很多不同的討論但是這個今天的重點其實在這個脈絡上它其實是放在轉型正義指的是從一個威權的體制轉到民主的政體"},{"start":3938.242,"end":3961.467,"text":"那其實在國際上面有非常多的國家都有同樣的事件那大家也都是用injustice就是不義這兩個字所以呢我想這是世界上通行的一個方式那過去我們在相關的法例不管是促短條例等等也好都是使用這樣子的一個名字因為它就是要反映這個土地上面曾經發生的不義事件"},{"start":3962.327,"end":3977.936,"text":"政府這些威權政府對人民所做的不法行為在我們的現代價值觀是必須被否定的所以我們必須要去陳述才能夠去彰顯我們對過去的威權有所反省我們才能夠去確保過去的威權在反省之後不會再發生謝謝"},{"start":3981.072,"end":4000.564,"text":"好 謝謝張雅琳委員再來哪位委員針對名稱要說明或發表意見林建啟委員各位委員 大家好對於名稱 我也是呼應剛才柯委員的建議"},{"start":4001.805,"end":4026.489,"text":"因為根據聯合國的宣言我們在這個概念下其實在人類不至於人類因為被壓迫而停而走險來面對暴政或者是壓迫進行反叛然後有必要用人權受法治的保護那鑑於這樣一個原因我們來設定各個不同族群在"},{"start":4026.929,"end":4050.991,"text":"面對被壓迫的這樣歷史的階段當中的事件我想這個相對是比較中性的因為當我們談不義那你這個不義究竟是誰的不義可能整個討論就很難進入很公允或相對客觀的一個討論當中所以這個是我的一個建議謝謝好 謝謝那張雅琳委員"},{"start":4052.59,"end":4072.546,"text":"因為我想我們講人權的話那就會談得非常的空泛因為很多人權女權不同種族的不同性別的不同年紀的人權或是移工的人權都可能會被包含在這個非常大的架構之下那這個我們要講的這次的重點其實是在不義的部分是威權體制轉型到民主政權的這個過程"},{"start":4074.327,"end":4090.308,"text":"這段時間如果在人權的架構之下它就會完全被稀釋掉所以我覺得這個還是要去堅持它是一個不義遺址的部分而且因為這些地方它的確是發生了一些不義的事件我們今天才去做相關的清點跟盤查嘛好 謝謝"},{"start":4091.903,"end":4107.059,"text":"好那因為這個部分行政院有提案是不是文化部看哪位是次長嗎說明一下就是說你們的版本好嗎名稱的部分謝謝所有委員的說明是這樣文化部還是做行政院的院版做一個說明"},{"start":4108.52,"end":4122.787,"text":"當初這個名字是從當時的處長會之後那是針對所謂負面歷史的價值來做定義所以才會有所謂不義遺址所以Injustice是當時所謂不義遺址名稱的來源"},{"start":4123.507,"end":4140.253,"text":"那在這件事上要特別說明的是不義已止的這個不義其實它不是用來做控訴的不義已止的不義指的是政權的自我反省也就是說在台灣這個政權上它不能再犯過去同樣的錯不管未來執政者是誰"},{"start":4141.133,"end":4155.985,"text":"所以他並沒有針對任何特定的政黨或特定的對象而是在談說作為一個民主自由的憲政體制不可以犯同樣的錯誤所以才會有不義遺址那第二個當然是說如果叫做人權紀念長旨"},{"start":4156.966,"end":4180.532,"text":"它會有正向跟負向全部都會列在裡面就有些人是為了人權犧牲有些人是為了人權被侵害那博弈遺址的立法裡面呢講的很特定的是指侵害人權的發生地也就是說它有特定指的是負向歷史的這個意義在所以我們還是希望能夠維持原版的名稱以上說明"},{"start":4181.832,"end":4182.672,"text":"教育推廣"},{"start":4202.208,"end":4225.761,"text":"最主要是說我希望我們的不義遺址並不是只是保存而已我們應該要有更積極的一些行為去教育我們才能去推廣過去因為這些國家不法的行為跟威權的歷史讓我們的每一個人還有我們的孩子知道我們國家的民主從何而來為何而來所以這部分我希望我的教育推廣的這個名詞呢也可以被保留在這個法案名稱裡面謝謝"},{"start":4228.963,"end":4256.018,"text":"好 那針對這個教育推廣的部分因為剛剛文化部王字導要沒有說明你可不可以也再說明一下謝謝委員的指教 我說明一下這個因為對於整體不管是不義遺址或者是轉型爭議或者是人權教育是所有部會都要擔任的責任那像以不義遺址跟轉型爭議來說不管是在文化部"},{"start":4256.658,"end":4271.431,"text":"或者是教育部衛福部國防部法務部都有各自的教育推廣的責任所以我會建議把這個項目放在條文中即可我們可以做教育推廣但在名稱上希望還是可以維持原版名稱"},{"start":4273.163,"end":4297.43,"text":"所以我想確認一下因為剛剛有提到說在後續的條文因為其實我也有提到教育推廣所以這個部分文化部是可以支持的嗎後續的部分後續的條文可以在我們的任務上面把教育推廣放進去好 了解 謝謝所以張雅玲委員針對教育推廣這部分你就不堅持放在名稱是不是好"},{"start":4297.93,"end":4326.683,"text":"那如果這樣子的話其實我們就有兩種意見嘛齁我剛剛算了一下因為有提案的版本裡面有九個都是不移植的那人權這邊有提案的其實只有黃婕委員一人那我昨天好像聽到是張亞玲委員說黃婕委員她其實她可以跟大家就是可以支持院版的不移植那其他因為支持希望放人權的委員好像都沒有提案版本那我們是不是尊重有提案的是以不移植為主好不好"},{"start":4326.983,"end":4341.67,"text":"因為現在後面那個時期大家還可以在後面再爭論那個葛如君委員謝謝昭偉我覺得這個題目的名稱應該還是要多加審慎的來研議跟使用"},{"start":4342.915,"end":4361.505,"text":"因為你在裡面這個威權統治所以把威權統治時期剛剛有委員發言威權統治時期我們要來反省政權的反省這個部會的發言也是如此那所以才把它叫做不義那威權統治的時期是民國34年到81年之間"},{"start":4364.506,"end":4388.204,"text":"戒嚴也是發生在這個時候嘛 對吧 趙薇也點頭了所以我們應該要來反省 我們也不應該要回到過去那我想要請教相關的部會剛剛有做這個定義的同仁 次長那網路上關於戒嚴的這種挺戒嚴的言論不管是政黨"},{"start":4390.673,"end":4408.439,"text":"黨團或者是民眾我們能不能說他們是不義發言如果我們可以同意有這樣的共識我認為這個我們當然是有共識的空間如果沒有那這就是選擇性的文字定義這是一種雙標的文字定義所以我的問題很清楚"},{"start":4409.522,"end":4428.715,"text":"我們如果網路上有人在講威權時代的言論想要做威權時代的復辟想要挺戒嚴這是不是不義發言我們可不可以這樣界定請教次長或者其他的委員同仁或請教召委這個是我們的意見 謝謝是不是 次長是不是回應一下"},{"start":4431.935,"end":4457.284,"text":"這位委員說明喔第一個就是戒嚴對於民主憲政來說當然是對民主憲政的一個威脅那至於在網路上去主張我想那現在在台灣的民主政體裡面屬於言論自由的範圍那所以他是不是不意就由我來這邊做定義以上好那因為好那個葛國軍委員這個我"},{"start":4458.84,"end":4482.078,"text":"我不批評這個回應但是網路有言論的自由我們在表示說這個應該要保留一個中性的空間我們不應該有法條的定義的名稱來為這段時間做了一個名稱的定義但是我們卻又不用這樣的定義來套用到其他人的發言"},{"start":4483.261,"end":4509.319,"text":"這個我們覺得這是一個社會會非常錯亂沒有辦法理解為什麼我們不會去講說這樣子的戒嚴挺戒嚴的言論是不義言論不義發言或不義的討論但是我們自己行政院送來的版本在討論威權時期的法制在討論威權時期的戒嚴我們卻給他扣上不義的帽子"},{"start":4511.397,"end":4527.539,"text":"我們挺言論的自由言論的空間可是我們竟然在立法院由行政院送來的法條是縮小了言論的空間甚至去做自我定義這樣子是我們在定法律的做法嗎"},{"start":4530.126,"end":4554.631,"text":"那個我想我們還是回來針對那個名稱那我剛剛就是覺得因為行政院版是這樣然後那個委員的版本裡面幾乎都是提不以一指的那是不是我們這個人權的相關說明可以列入那個就是立法說明裡面讓這些意見可以被接受然後我們就直接進入第一條好不好"},{"start":4555.391,"end":4582.31,"text":"因為我覺得主席做這樣的才是因為待會我們還可以繼續爭論那個時期的部分就第一條跟第三條的部分那個林建啟委員我想請教一下那個次長你們在做這個所謂不義遺址名稱的時候那請問全世界的一些不義遺址您這邊有一些範例嗎那這樣好了我直接提議這個名稱做保留"},{"start":4584.393,"end":4585.914,"text":"我們先進入第一條是不是我們就先請那個"},{"start":4607.155,"end":4634.88,"text":"除了剛剛是一個版本之外還有陳秀寶委員的版本 萬美玲委員版本還有林建啟委員的修正動議 三個那這部分我們是不是就先請文化部這裡也是次長先說明一下我們再進行讓大家發言好了先講一下好 那有哪位要發言 針對第一條好 陳秀寶委員先 然後鄭天才 萬美玲"},{"start":4637.816,"end":4663.128,"text":"謝謝主席我有向修正動議那在第一條的部分是關於我們的立法目的那以文化部這邊的部分它是說未反威權統治時期國家未達成鞏固威權統治之目的所謂侵害人權事件彰顯其發生地之歷史價值及轉型正義的意義促進多元保存活化制定特質"},{"start":4664.028,"end":4686.875,"text":"制定本條例那我的修正動議裡面我是在促進多元保存活化這後面加一句深化人權教育推廣其實不義遺址的保存很大一個重點是為了讓我們記得過去的歷史並且不要再重蹈覆轍那在威權統治的時期呢掌權者為了鞏固政權"},{"start":4687.435,"end":4707.669,"text":"不管是用高壓獨斷的方式來壓迫人民造成許多人留下了悲痛的記憶甚至付出慘痛的代價那隨著時代的變遷雖然許多不義遺址的原有建物已經改建但是在不義遺址上面發生過的事情是不應該被遺忘的也應該融入轉型正義人權教育來提醒我們民主得來不易"},{"start":4708.209,"end":4719.294,"text":"所以我認為說要在第一條這上面再加上深化人權教育推廣的部分讓我們的人民都可以知道台灣這段的歷史 以上我的第一條的條文"},{"start":4732.836,"end":4750.939,"text":"是寫為反省台灣歷史不同時期統治者為鞏固統治所謂對人權或族群之侵害事件這個部分我跟行政院的版本不一樣的地方"},{"start":4752.701,"end":4767.895,"text":"大家可以發表意見之後我認為還是要先保留因為這會涉及到這個第三條到底是要用威權統治時期然後這個時間這個部分然後因為我的第三條是寫極權統治時期"},{"start":4770.798,"end":4782.065,"text":"所以這個也不一樣所以這個都會相關聯所以為了這個節省時間大家可以先表示意見之後我建議這個也是先保留 以上謝謝"},{"start":4782.796,"end":4807.073,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天才委員 再來萬美玲委員好 謝謝 在這個第一條的部分我來說明一下我想不義遺址的保存條例是根據促進轉型正義條例而來的那麼在這個整個充滿正義的促轉會在111年5月退場之後有許多的業務都回到各部會去其中不義遺址保存的工作落在文化部的身上但是呢 我認為其實我們要反省或是面對所謂的威權的歷史"},{"start":4808.294,"end":4827.703,"text":"其实绝对是不应该只有狭隘的局促的在某一个时期的这个相关的人权侵害而且应该是要扩大到台湾历史不同时期的威权统治者对人权或者族群的一个侵害这样是比较完整的那么尤其其实我觉得要特别提到一下当然今天我们有好几位我们原民的委员在这里"},{"start":4828.443,"end":4844.485,"text":"那在日本在台灣半世紀殖民的威權的統治在日本對台灣統治的時期對台灣各族群的迫害不管是在1895年日本接收台灣主權在我們桃園平鎮發生的安平鎮之役屠殺了不滿的客家藝民"},{"start":4846.587,"end":4865.797,"text":"1913、1914泰鲁格事变日军屠杀拒绝臣服的泰鲁格族1896年云林大屠杀3万人惨遭日军的杀害1930年赛德克巴莱的电影里面的误射事件赛德克族各部落几乎要遭到灭族以及强征台湾慰安妇等等"},{"start":4866.317,"end":4894.893,"text":"我想這一些其實都是一些所謂的威權都是一些不義所以我在第一條的部分我把它念一下我把它修正動議是為反省台灣歷史不同時期統治者為達成鞏固威權統治所謂對人權或族群之侵害事件彰顯其發生地之歷史價值及轉型正義意義促進多元保存活化"},{"start":4895.433,"end":4897.78,"text":"特制定本條例那我希望改成這樣"},{"start":4901.221,"end":4924.158,"text":"謝謝萬美林委員再來我們請張雅琳委員好 第一條我的部分呢基本上現在院版是大致相同啦不過我還是強調就是說在倒數第二句的部分我強調了一個教育推廣啦就是說跟我剛剛的說明是一模一樣的我們應該要讓這些珍貴的歷史地點呢更有積極的意義讓它能夠走進我們的生活那就如同說剛剛在講這個不抑止轉型條例剛剛有委員發言說"},{"start":4929.055,"end":4956.477,"text":"為什麼我們這個針對網路上的這些戒嚴論我們不能講它是不易發言因為我想今天我們審查的主體還是剛剛也講審查的這個主體它是針對於國家而不是針對於個人啦所以我想這就代表了教育非常的重要我們才能夠讓大家更清楚的知道威權在對台灣的民主過去有多大的傷害那民主的重要性這樣 謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員再來林益菁委員"},{"start":4960.259,"end":4986.746,"text":"謝主席我這一條的條文我也呼應一下雅琳委員就是說我也是就是在促進多元保存活化後面有加上並積極提升教育意義因為事實上目前不管是國家人權博物館或台灣共生青年協會或者很多的社大的團體"},{"start":4987.606,"end":5010.953,"text":"有一直在辦理不義遺址的走讀的教育活動所以也希望說能將這個文字入法加強這個不義遺址保存活化的教育意義所以有加上那個積極提升教育意義那雅琳是教育推廣那意思是一樣的以上 請大家討論好 謝謝林怡君委員那針對這第一條 那葛如君委員"},{"start":5012.478,"end":5039.447,"text":"謝謝邵委那我想因為部長今天在現場我還是需要跟部長做一些詢問那首先第一點我想請教部長因為我們這個是教文委員會您今天也列席做這個不易以止保存條例的審查我想請教部長您覺得文化應該是要走兼容擴大的路線還是走壓制固化縮小的路線"},{"start":5040.799,"end":5064.201,"text":"我們剛剛已經提了 其實我是比較客氣啦我說是網友在講挺戒嚴的言論但顯然不只是網友那我們不願意我就想要請教部長如果有人或者有單位甚至有政黨的組織在挺戒嚴的言論這是不是不義言論這是不是不義發言"},{"start":5067.307,"end":5096.229,"text":"如果您覺得要走兼容擴大的路線要有言論的自由我們不應該把它扣這個帽子為什麼我們要為這些地點扣上這些帽子呢我覺得這是我的第一個問題部長請待會一定要回應喔第二點我想部長您是電影圈出身賽德克巴萊這部電影上映的時候有沒有觀賞過同為文化人我是阿宅但我也非常敬重文化"},{"start":5097.352,"end":5121.325,"text":"但是今天我看見文化部提出的版本如同剛剛都會委員所說的完全沒有對抗日先烈的尊敬甚至不把日據時期所發生的一些事件納入這個所謂的人權事件的遺址所承認的時期難道文化部不認為我們剛剛甚至也有執政黨的委員提到"},{"start":5122.683,"end":5149.373,"text":"關於侵害人權的事件其實是有非常多種類的這些東西都不需要去被列入來討論嗎我們為什麼是用縮小我們為什麼是用固化我們為什麼是用壓制的方式來討論這些地點跟時期呢那如果我們要更嚴格的定義我們可以把它叫做訓政威權啊"},{"start":5150.888,"end":5178.594,"text":"不然威權有很多種啊日治也發生了很多人權的事件也有非常多種類的威權啊所謂的不公不義第三件事情我一樣要問所謂的不公不義所謂的壓迫國家侵害人權的事件無時無刻都在發生剛剛次長也說了但這題我是問部長的那近日勞發署發生長官霸凌下屬導致下屬輕生的事件這是一種內在的權利"},{"start":5181.482,"end":5209.261,"text":"的霸凌的案件這也是用國家的公權力來侵害人權的事件啊如果要講國家侵害人權就不應該限縮在任何時期過去的發生的事件當然值得我們來討論現在發生的案件也更應該警惕所以本席認為整部法從第一條開始就是在縮小就是在固化就是在壓制部長您能不能回應一下謝謝"},{"start":5212.507,"end":5237.668,"text":"那個部長要回應嗎我逐一回答那個委員的詢問就是文化是不是兼容並蓄然後包容 OK 完全答對但是文化也有它的價值跟批判我們從過去到現在 各位剛剛從清朝日治到國民政府來"},{"start":5238.849,"end":5260.295,"text":"大家都在講一些被迫害的過程你就可以知道台灣人過得多麼辛苦了這一點就知道台灣人多麼辛苦現在還要面對中國的這個侵略台灣人一路走在歷史都是非常辛苦的但是剛剛一直提到文化文化兼容必須可是文化它有一個高度它有能力反省它有能力批判"},{"start":5261.115,"end":5279.505,"text":"我覺得我們今天在談這個條例的時候大家不要惡分法說好像我們民進黨是要故意用這個條例來固化跟控訴國民政府來台灣的我希望不要這樣想如果這個法令通過你為什麼不倒過來想是國民政府能夠自我反省"},{"start":5280.385,"end":5303.48,"text":"他能夠面對這關非常痛苦的事情我講的是促轉條例之下的這個威權時代不包括前面的時代是因為我們今天審的法案是來自促轉條例所轉型的東西我覺得一個政權能夠自我反省是非常重要的怎麼樣對 我要回答你"},{"start":5308.795,"end":5322.739,"text":"人群基本上在我們的定義上是非常進步的,比如兩性、移工、原住民、族群、同婚,它是非常進步的觀念為什麼轉型不易移植這麼重要,我講我自己的故事好了"},{"start":5324.366,"end":5352.896,"text":"我如果去馬場廳去經過那邊我一定會繞著馬場廳三圈因為我的舅舅就在那邊被槍決了我舅舅23歲被槍斃所以不義遺址對某些人來講是非常重要的我本來不想講得這麼沉重但是一路聽來我覺得作為台灣人真的蠻辛苦但是我們能不能夠抱著一個自我反省接受曾經發生的事實這件事情心平氣和的來討論今天的不義遺址保存條例以上"},{"start":5360.292,"end":5376.909,"text":"非常抱歉,我非常尊重以前的小夜,也就是現在的我們的部長部長,你有些某些言論,我沒有辦法贊同那我也想請你解釋一下,剛剛民進黨林英堅委員在提案說明的時候,他說"},{"start":5378.348,"end":5385.767,"text":"在這塊土地上其他國家所造成的不義行為不關我們的事我要請教部長還有請教民進黨"},{"start":5387.669,"end":5409.677,"text":"過去這塊土地上遭受到其他國家暴行對待的人是不是我們的人民今天我真的見識到了民進黨你們偉大的發明原來其他國家欺負我們的人民竟然可以說不關我們的事情所以你們切割所以你們有有有你剛提到帶他回去放回去聽你說這個是"},{"start":5410.757,"end":5426.206,"text":"那個清末跟日據時代不屬於我們國家我們國家叫中華民國你是這樣子說的所以我有感而發今天在這一條的時候我必須要提出我自己的看法還有我心裡面的難受第二個"},{"start":5427.387,"end":5449.427,"text":"至於部長剛剛的說明 部長 我很遺憾您是一個文化人 您居然也是要切割歷史第一條行政院的版本是說 為了反省台灣歷史不同時期統治者 為了鞏固統治所為對人權或族群的侵害事件"},{"start":5450.908,"end":5469.593,"text":"彰顯它發生地的歷史還有價值以及轉型正義的意義促進多元保存活化特制定本條例我有兩個部分想請教一下小野部長您剛剛說馬場兵是的 那是台灣的歷史傷痛"},{"start":5470.333,"end":5489.81,"text":"您剛剛又講到歷史轉型正義裡面沒有談到的你似乎在你今天不想談但是別忘了今天我曾天才委員還有外美林委員以及這個倩琦委員我們所提的時間點待會我們會一一談到所以您剛剛的大致的回答我遺憾我也難過身為文化人的您"},{"start":5498.237,"end":5514.228,"text":"您還停留在切割掉了這塊土地的主人的人權這塊土地應該要反省的不同時期的統治者的人權或族群的侵害事件如果"},{"start":5515.109,"end":5536.287,"text":"您可以繼續接受我的討論的話我相信待會我們在於第三條實質介入到這個時間點的部分我希望您也能夠接受雖然轉型正義條例的時候您不在這個位置上可是現在不會以致您就是文化部部長了"},{"start":5537.288,"end":5563.824,"text":"所以我希望您把您的視野把你的心打開而不是在某個政黨的思維底下而是要把時間點把它拉到在這塊土地上所共同的痛苦的記憶包括客家族群包括原住民族群這些是活生生活在還活在這塊土地上的人以上 謝謝好 再來是郭玉琴委員"},{"start":5568.991,"end":5576.016,"text":"我問一下就是活生生還活在這塊土地上的人也包含我的家屬我的長輩在228事件"},{"start":5578.522,"end":5606.335,"text":"我們講的這個不義遺址其實我們就是定義在228事件跟白色恐怖的一個時期就是1945年到1992年這個時期我再喚醒一下大家對這段歷史的一個記憶如果大家不願意去面對的話1947年當年的3月8號當7000名的國民黨的軍人登陸基隆之後還沒靠岸就已經先對岸上的所有穿著木屐的台灣人開始掃射"},{"start":5609.674,"end":5633.893,"text":"我只是喚醒大家的回憶喔好 那我想尊重我的發言可以嗎好 我們尊重那個郭玉琴發言有不同的發言待會再講好嗎好 當年的基隆港一片死屍參加讀書會甚至知識分子只要提到228就像現在在中國你提到六四天安門是一樣的一個經濟話題就會被槍斃"},{"start":5636.195,"end":5654.984,"text":"我想這個是我們在面對最近期的1945年中國國民黨他們來到台灣的威權統治那只要是被證實當時包含刑求審判刑刑的地方都被定義為不義於止injustice"},{"start":5655.464,"end":5680.058,"text":"所以在一般的國際我們用injustice來定義為什麼我們不能把這個叫做不義遺址硬要扯到清朝硬要扯到日本殖民時代那我們再往回推你要不要連唐代你要不要連好啊如果大家要這麼廣如果大家要這麼的無限上綱的話那我想這個請尊重我的發言好嗎可以嗎"},{"start":5684.636,"end":5704.775,"text":"可以嗎 可以尊重一下我的發言嗎可以尊重一下我的發言嗎我們在講轉型正義公民教育的融入非常的重要要讓大家知道我們晉級台灣在爭取民主自由的過程有多麼的艱辛包含現在在立法院的現在"},{"start":5706.577,"end":5725.967,"text":"大家都知道我們請大家尊重有不同的意見就舉手等一下發言請大家尊重發言的人中間先不要插話因為很多名團在看我們的直播拜託大家再來是葛如君下一個林怡瑾再來是洪孟楷謝謝我首先也是表達"},{"start":5727.512,"end":5752.947,"text":"在特定時期在威權時期的不義行為不義的行動的受害者我相信所有人都非常的難過我們也應該要討論我們應該要反省那如果沒有這段大家的這個努力的過程我想我們也不會有今天"},{"start":5754.082,"end":5778.68,"text":"像昭偉可以用民主的制度來召開這樣的討論所以我想這一點是我們應該都是有共識的那剛剛為什麼我現在要補充發言是因為剛剛我想部長沒有回答到我的問題就是定義一個行為行動用法條其實非常嚴肅的是它會影響社會"},{"start":5781.875,"end":5805.129,"text":"對於這些文字的理解跟觀感那我們現在是某種程度的限縮了我們在名稱上限縮我們在法條的細節裡頭限縮可是我們在解釋不義的時候我們又同意這跟人權有關人權有非常多種的侵犯的事件"},{"start":5807.079,"end":5829.791,"text":"那我們定義了威權的時期其中有戒嚴的這個狀態那我剛剛詢問部長的是如果有政治人物甚至是政府做挺戒嚴的發言我們能不能說他是不義發言這一點我想文化部部長您沒有回答所以我希望部長可以回答 謝謝好 謝謝葛無菌委員再來林益菁委員"},{"start":5835.302,"end":5864.472,"text":"待會兒都發言完之後 部長再回覆好 謝謝主席我先回應一下高金委員高金委員 你要修正你的發言因為我並沒有主張清帝國跟日本殖民帝國他們的迫害不是迫害我只是要說台灣歷經連續跟多重的殖民那每一個時期有每一個時期的獨特性那不同的暴力形式的檢討也各不相同"},{"start":5864.972,"end":5886.599,"text":"所以不應該是這樣好像大雜燴的這樣不明就裡的全部納入我的意思是這樣不是說他們的迫害不是迫害只是我強調是說現在中華民國確實是統治我們這塊土地的政權那所以我們現在要追究過去的不法跟暴力當然就是要對中華民國的威權統治做檢討好 以上好 謝謝林益錦委員再來請洪孟楷委員"},{"start":5894.814,"end":5917.183,"text":"各位委員第一次發言我們討論到所謂不管是不義遺疾藥或是我們柯之恩委員主張的人權紀念的相關場域條例重點在什麼第一條其實重點在於如果說我們要來拿核心精神跟價值的話第一條的重點就只有兩個字反省"},{"start":5918.567,"end":5937.843,"text":"重點是反省嘛反省什麼反省過去的錯誤反省的作為目的就是我們記取過去的錯誤記得人類曾經做過那麼愚蠢的事情並且不要再犯未來我們的後代子孫孫都不要再犯"},{"start":5938.703,"end":5958.648,"text":"我想那是當初我們在條例審查的時候我也直接跟部長來請教我就說觀今宜見古無古不曾經人類可以創造很輝煌的歷史跟價值人類可以創造很多的文化文明但是人類也很愚笨所以人類也做了很多的錯誤那我們現代人的"},{"start":5961.25,"end":5968.961,"text":"責任使命就是我們要記取過去的錯誤把它釐清之後不帶情緒的因為"},{"start":5970.311,"end":5997.291,"text":"實在話講當初的犯刑者已經不在人世了當初的被害者也不在人世了但是該予予的回覆我們要給予回覆該予予的譴責我們要給予譴責好但是重點在什麼重點在於是時間可以一刀切嗎有任何不義的事情不公不義人類的錯誤人類的愚蠢可以一刀切嗎我今年"},{"start":5998.547,"end":6025.449,"text":"一個時間點切下去民國34年以前犯的我們在今天討論的完全不討論到他即便他發生的是台灣的同胞即便受害是台灣的人民即便他生活的也是我們的祖先但是他所受的謀難所受的責難我們不理他即便這件事情血淋淋活生生的發生在台灣這塊土地上如同剛剛"},{"start":6026.874,"end":6050.894,"text":"高尖素美委員給我看這個非常珍貴的史料1930年我特別有感啊 為什麼我曾經當過嘉義市的文化局局長我知道1930年對於台灣平地上來講是一個多輝煌的一年如果沒有記錯的話陳承波先生那個時候如果沒有記錯的話"},{"start":6052.745,"end":6058.513,"text":"KANO那部電影KANO拿到日本甲子園第二名是1931年"},{"start":6060.956,"end":6086.041,"text":"所以當那個時候1930年1931年台灣曾經KANO台灣的棒球在日本甲子園拿到第二名還被拍成電影的時候同一時間在台灣這塊土地上是有原住民的朋友被屠殺被暴力殘害甚至裡面寫得很清楚他是以疑制疑的"},{"start":6087.304,"end":6099.815,"text":"手法日本是以移植的手法是驅動莫納努道的敵對部落來去攻擊莫納努道讓他們自相殘殺然後日軍再來做後面做接收所以"},{"start":6104.042,"end":6123.883,"text":"我覺得在第一點的一個部分我絕對支持反省反省才是重點如果我們這一輩的人連反省都不會的話那愧對於人所以大家今天也真的不用有任何的情緒我想每一個人的發言都是希望能夠針對自己所在乎的那一塊來去做反省"},{"start":6124.423,"end":6149.169,"text":"但重點在於是時間我看得出來民進黨的朋友還是延續的是促進轉型正義條例下來所以是民國34年到民國81年那我們其他在野黨的委員的主張其實我們沒有不同從促進轉型正義那個時候我們就有主張應該是要台灣這塊土地上從過去日據時代到"},{"start":6151.723,"end":6174.6,"text":"81年這邊都應該要納入包括我最重視的慰安婦的議題那只是講實在話第九屆在野黨人數不夠所以我們是因為表決表疏你們我們並不是我們沒有那個時候就沒有堅持說我們是要從日據時代就要放進來我們只是表決表疏了可是有沒有這些事情發生 有"},{"start":6175.831,"end":6199.037,"text":"那現在我沒有說要訴諸 直接說表決可是因為看起來分歧很大 很有爭議所以我的主張 我的堅持是依照我們的修正動議把反省台灣歷史不同時期統治者相關做的人權及族群的侵害事件來做這一個條例的時間範圍"},{"start":6201.4,"end":6223.459,"text":"這跟第三條是連動的所以我把它講得比較清楚一點如果說在時間點的任續上面大家沒有一個共識的話我建議是保留否則的話我們再吵下去可能沒有意義但是我肯定至少我們坐在這邊的每一位委員以及部長 次長 局長大家都對於反省這件事情我們是有一致的共識的以上 謝謝"},{"start":6225.239,"end":6239.979,"text":"好 那這題第一條這還有沒有哪位委員要發言的那因為這條我也有我的版本那榮友也發言一下那我想就是我這條我對定義因為我們現在想的是到底是要反省威權統治時期國家"},{"start":6242.262,"end":6265.181,"text":"還有譬如說鄭天才委員他的是為反省台灣歷史不同時期的統治者那我的為什麼會放在威權統治時期國家那第一個當然是因為原本的促轉條例的時間就是指這段時間那為什麼我支持促轉條例而是因為說我們現在如果要處理的是轉型正義那他講的就是從威權轉型到"},{"start":6267.242,"end":6289.685,"text":"民主的這個國家它對過去威權時期以國家系統性的力量迫害人民的部分進行反省代表這個民主國家是有反省力的那如果清朝或者日本後來在台灣轉型成民主國家那當然我們可以定義可是那是不同時期由不同的法源不同的地方來處理我非常的贊成"},{"start":6290.606,"end":6313.732,"text":"慰安婦的就是或者是戰爭性奴隸的他每次的議題我都有去也幫忙向文化部爭取相關的資源文化部也都有支持他有一個小小的紀念館那以我剛講智利為例智利當然也有原住民的議題有不同時期的殖民的議題他們國家也很重視可是當我看到的轉型這樣的博物館"},{"start":6314.192,"end":6334.625,"text":"他就是針對Pinochet這個威權民主的這段時期那個國家政治性的迫害人民甚至那個體育館都有留下一個大規模屠殺的時候有留下一個小小的紀念式我想我們現在講的是這個部分所以如果有不同的法要有一個婦女人權就是紀念空間或者是"},{"start":6335.666,"end":6361.303,"text":"我都很支持可是應該是不同的法我們現在針對的就是政治學者定義的轉型正義就是威權國家轉型到民主化對之前的國家系統性的侵害人民所以清朝當時沒有變成民主那日本這個殖民我都支持我們反省可是是不同的法源而且其實文化部或相關的部會都有在努力"},{"start":6362.043,"end":6377.149,"text":"好 那支持我的發言那再來剛剛是有叫請文化部這邊有要再回應嗎還是我們就第一條就保留因為我想這個部分那個吳佩儀委員還沒發言我們先給吳佩儀委員她這條還沒發言她有版本 OK"},{"start":6378.973,"end":6404.417,"text":"好 謝謝教委我想因為剛剛今天的這個不一直保存條例我也有提案也有一個版本那剛剛聽到前面的幾位委員的發言其實從第一條開始就已經喊出了暴流那我其實感受到的是我們今天在場的委員之間是高度的沒有共識那例如剛剛一直在討論這個年代的問題我是認為因為我們今天在"},{"start":6408.998,"end":6437.637,"text":"討論的不是一個概念不是一個理論不是一個議題而是我們要立一個法修一個法所以法律的立法技術它當然需要有明確的定義倘若今天我們沒有明確的定義是剛剛有立委提到說不要限縮但其實限縮它同一個意思也就是必須要定義你沒有定義的話未來在執行上面是沒有辦法操作那我個人認為其實我們在談的不易移植它也就是轉型正義它不是"},{"start":6438.317,"end":6460.43,"text":"在不是一個族群的議題例如說我們講的國民政府威權統治時期事實上白色恐怖的受害者他是含瓜不同族群的剛剛我們在場也有委員是非常熟悉嘉義的例如我們高醫生在阿里山州族曾經是老師曾經是鄉長"},{"start":6462.438,"end":6479.313,"text":"那他是不是威權時期擺設恐怖的受害者當然是那他在什麼地方被槍決在安坑的刑場那我們需不需要為這樣的不義遺址來進行檢討來進行反省來進行教育跟推廣呢我認為是要的"},{"start":6480.88,"end":6507.407,"text":"剛剛提到的嘉義和孟凱文有談到的陳承波先生陳承波先生的故事是不是值得讓我們後代更多的我們的年輕時代來認識了解記憶才有可能進一步的來檢討跟反省呢那也就是在嘉義什麼樣的年代1947年因為當時陳承波先生是228事件的一個談判代表那他就在嘉義火車站一樣"},{"start":6509.059,"end":6534.513,"text":"因為威權的統治喪失了他的性命這是不是一個不義遺址他是不是應該要被認識是不是應該要被記錄所以我們其實在談論的是一個政權系統性的對不同族群的個人的生命造成的迫害那以及在這些場所今天我們討論的是不義遺址在這些場所我們透過立法來進行"},{"start":6536.514,"end":6560.202,"text":"保存、進行教育、進行推廣那我相當的贊成原住民族所遭受的不義絕對也應該要受到國家的重視而原住民族所遭受到的不義它是更多面向、更全面的所以它不能只有一個法律來處理我們要從不同層面包括政治、文化、經濟、歷史的不同的法條"},{"start":6560.822,"end":6584.069,"text":"都應該要來處理原住民族所遭受到的不義但我們今天在談論的不是不義的概念而是不義已止一個可操作化的這個立法那從第一條光是這個法律的名稱其實就我剛剛聽到其實就是完全不同的史觀不同的認識也沒有共識我其實我很抱歉因為我知道朝偉是"},{"start":6585.189,"end":6594.418,"text":"非常地尊重我們有很多的民間團體其實對這個條例也抱著很深的期待因為我們希望轉型正義在做的都是跟時間在賽跑當然我們希望可以趕快讓我們的這些轉型正義的工作能夠具體地來落實但是"},{"start":6602.565,"end":6620.742,"text":"我其實會蠻希望說我們是不是可以再來排公聽會那每一位委員都應該要可以去充分的發言因為我們如果現在進入每一條的這個細節其實大家在談論都是背後對於整個立法的背景其實是都是有不同的想法"},{"start":6621.443,"end":6624.284,"text":"所以我想如果我們有公聽會也讓民間團體可以來這裡來充分的發言充分的表達再進入到主條到法律的這個討論的話我覺得會不會我們可以比較好好來談論這個議題因為從第一條開始其實我認為不是只有文字上面的意見不同那是對於整個轉型正義它到底定義為何大家其實有很多不同的想法好 謝謝"},{"start":6648.514,"end":6675.627,"text":"謝謝吳佩儀委員的發言再來是高金素美委員要發言嗎好 非常好我也同意佩儀委員所講的也謝謝您其實原住民在那段時間遭受的迫害我們現在原民會手上也都有資料而且他的後代也都還在謝謝您也把我們看到裡面但是第一條的部分我也同意孟愷所說的其實第一條重點是"},{"start":6676.667,"end":6689.771,"text":"反省台灣歷史反省這個字很重要既然是要反省台灣歷史的話我就期盼大家不要切磕因為在我們現行規範把威權統治時期"},{"start":6694.032,"end":6717.97,"text":"這樣子的名稱僅僅限縮到民國三十四年以後這的確是忽略了日據時期原住民族所遭受的威權迫害這個根本沒有辦法全面呈現臺灣這塊土地上的人民以及他曾遭受到的歷史真相剛剛孟懇委員講得非常的好"},{"start":6719.671,"end":6747.249,"text":"我也正同佩玉委員所說的如果大家把這個時間點沒有辦法有一個定調跟討論成一個時間點的話我覺得大家就開公聽會吧要不然今天逐條的話我們會一直第一條你不要說什麼我們光是名稱就已經保留了第一條光是這個討論了那麼久然後實質第二條"},{"start":6748.209,"end":6773.682,"text":"要不要關中央園民會因為涉到原住民的權益中央園民會要不要進來涉足到客家族群的客家委員會要不要進來然後再來就是第三條的核心了第三條的核心就是時間點了所以其實光是前面這三條就已經討論我相信大家都不會有一個結果所以我也同意配意"},{"start":6775.363,"end":6780.468,"text":"剛剛委員所提的 我們還是在召開公聽會今天沒有急著要逐條的來討論 好嗎 以上 謝謝"},{"start":6791.553,"end":6808.534,"text":"那个有没有开公听会我尊重啦但是我还是要提醒大家讨论非常久了请大家回归到我们今天所讨论叫不易移植保存条例刚刚大家特别提到不易移植指的是个发生地好不好不管是反省不管什么它都是额外所延伸"},{"start":6808.874,"end":6824.661,"text":"也是非常重要的精神主軸但是呢你如果是要來根據我們這個條文是不易移植的保存那我覺得太多犯精神化的東西我們還是要把它聚焦舉例來說如果它是一個地點的話我根本就是認為你的第一條改變就是應該為保存活化威權統治時期侵害人權事件發生地"},{"start":6835.405,"end":6856.818,"text":"并粘结纪念它的历史价值跟人权及法治教育的意义请把那个发生地当作个组轴这才有办法符合我们刚刚所提到的至于繁醒至于其他的它都可以类归到你里面我刚刚所提到的彰显纪念价值跟人权及法治教育的意义来特别制定本条例"},{"start":6857.618,"end":6880.488,"text":"為什麼我要特別強調因為我發現大家都有太多自己懷抱的一些的想法過來所以對於是不是要開公聽會我也不覺得公聽會開多次會解決這個問題但是很顯然因為我們這是第一次坐在這個地方大家各自拿出版本還有很多修正動議終於可以聚焦在這個地方所以在今天之後所開的公聽會勢必會比過去開的公聽會更加的一個聚焦因為版本已經擺在這個地方了"},{"start":6886.431,"end":6910.16,"text":"所以呢我个人认为说公听会是一个选择的方法否则的话今天应该是从第三条开始来解决为什么因为第二条里面有人有文化部有人课委会有人有原住民那都是完全直至于你第三条里面你怎么样来定义你的时间点你怎么样定义你所谓的私有公有的这个部分你没有把范围把它界定清楚的话你没有办法回应到第二条第一条"},{"start":6910.82,"end":6934.1,"text":"所以如果说你要让他更有效率的方法从第三条开始讨论然后第二条第一条如果没有办法共识的话就各自拿着版本大家再透过一场或两场的公听会把它聚焦不是再发散性的再讲到各自的意识形态等等这样子对这个其实没有本席诚恳提出这样的建议好谢谢柯真委员张亚林委员然后第二吴佩玉委员"},{"start":6936.365,"end":6955.631,"text":"其實我的想法也跟柯知恩委員是相同我覺得說因為過去我們可能都比較是大家各自表述但是這次有版本我們就應該基於版本上面這一次的第三條來開始來檢視我們是不是還有相當的歧義那再去開公聽會的時候我覺得大家才能夠聚焦才能夠真正的把不移植這個條例可以來去推進"},{"start":6958.152,"end":6980.801,"text":"謝謝張雅玲委員再吳佩儀委員我只是要表達就像剛剛講的第一條我對剛剛柯子恩委員的意見我跟他就非常的不同我同意說他應該是聚焦在發聲的但是如果你把不義遺址把它變成是這個人權事件然後跟紀念這個我覺得完全已經違背了轉型正義它本身的初衷"},{"start":6982.782,"end":6999.35,"text":"請問馬搶定在我的選區啊 多少的人只是因為他想要追求自由在馬搶定被槍決被判處死刑 被國家跟政府的暴行奪去生命這個叫做人權紀念 紀念什麼啊"},{"start":7000.441,"end":7023.133,"text":"我們這樣子要教育傳達給我們的孩子什麼樣的概念跟價值呢所以像我就會堅持說他必須要是補益移植才能夠去清楚跟精確的產名那我要回復一下剛剛高金素梅委員的那沒有錯像對於高醫生這樣子的前輩跟鬥士我們"},{"start":7025.68,"end":7044.049,"text":"不應該用族群來去區分我們對於轉型正義過去威權歷史的反省那高醫生在給他妻子的家書裡面他尊尊的叮嚀水田不要賣水田不要賣"},{"start":7045.37,"end":7073.315,"text":"所以我同意剛剛高慶淑美委員所講的我們當然不能跟原住民族切割我們也不該之前鄭天才委員說如果沒有國民黨當年的戒嚴沒有今天的台灣我要說如果沒有原住民族一直守護在這個土地上沒有今天的台灣所以我們當然國家跟政府要來重視原住民族的權利那今天我很高興我們現場有國民黨的委員說我們每一個"},{"start":7074.545,"end":7092.733,"text":"人都要對過去的歷史要能夠檢討跟反省個人國民黨的委員個人願意來去檢討過去國民黨的威權統治對人權的迫害我覺得我們都要予以肯定但是我們今天討論這個立法我們要求誰來檢討我們是要求行政院"},{"start":7093.453,"end":7109.783,"text":"我們是要求國家要求政府是現在的左榮泰院長所帶領的行政院我們要求他們必須要檢討代表中華民國政府來對所有曾經遭受中華民國政府迫害的各個族群"},{"start":7110.697,"end":7124.896,"text":"每一個個人每一個家庭要進行檢討我們要求的是國家跟政府的檢討好謝謝那個吳佩玉委員因為那個吳佩玉委員剛有一點有一點誤解我的意思我剛只是說"},{"start":7125.697,"end":7141.407,"text":"不義遺址保存條例這是我們今天的既然叫不義遺址它應該強化的是發生地但是並沒有否定發生地背後所涵蓋的這樣的精神的價值所以我剛剛特別要澄清我認為因為你要呼應不義遺址保存這六個字"},{"start":7142.327,"end":7163.386,"text":"所以你第一条应该是保存活化这些侵害人权事件的发生地请注意我后面有特别提到了是要彰显纪念其历史价值跟人权及法治交易的意义所以千万不要误解我只强调所谓的发生地发生地纯粹只是配合我们刚刚的部分后面的意旨那个精神还是保留我一定要做这样的一个澄清"},{"start":7164.206,"end":7174.21,"text":"那請問你認為把不義兩個字放進去有什麼不妥呢我沒有說不行啊我現在只告訴你我強化的是發聲帝你不能因為這個部分你就否定兩個字為什麼不能去不妥請大家尊重主席因為剛剛葛如君要發言那我建議葛如君發言完之後除非這條沒有發言過的否則我們第一條就保留然後進入下一條好不好"},{"start":7185.114,"end":7202.182,"text":"好 謝謝 我想我還是要再次也感謝這個吳佩玉委員有提到我們是有共識的剛剛洪孟楷委員也提到了反省是我們的共識那但是剛剛吳佩玉委員我們也可能有不一樣的想法像吳佩玉委員說為什麼不義有問題那我剛剛一直有問部長說這個不義這兩個字"},{"start":7207.904,"end":7224.665,"text":"他可以這樣一刀切用我們行政院我們的立法直接在名稱上面說不義然後在細節裡面去定時期不義可以一刀切嗎不義應該是任何的言論都應該是不義啊所以我想現在是有同有義啦"},{"start":7225.546,"end":7254.602,"text":"所以我是支持剛剛有多位委員不管是什麼政黨都有提到我們現在有版本了其實我們是可以也許來辦公聽會可能就可以更聚焦那其實同一個政黨的內部也有不同看法像其實民進黨的委員黃婕委員的提議其實就是人權紀念長旨所以人權紀念長旨的這個提議並非只有柯志恩委員提出並非只有國民黨的委員提出所以這一點"},{"start":7255.202,"end":7281.769,"text":"我相信是有同有異所以我們純同化異我想我是支持我們用公聽會的形式來做更廣泛的討論謝謝好 謝謝葛國軍委員那那個部長說他可以那個簡短回應一下那我最後很快的這個講一下那個簡短喔好 謝謝召委我很具體的我呼應那個剛才吳佩穎委員跟葛國軍委員還有幾位委員這邊其實也有提"},{"start":7282.409,"end":7286.274,"text":"因為今天針對定義 針對精神 針對長指我們大家都有不同的看法跟意見那我提議是不是我們走起來召開公聽會讓大家對於這個法條的內容有比較深刻而且更聚焦的一個討論這是我的一個提議 謝謝先讓部長回應"},{"start":7303.6,"end":7311.85,"text":"謝謝葛禄君委員一直要我回答這個問題就是說他認為說在這個時代如果有人說要挺戒嚴算不算不義言論對不對 你的問題是這樣"},{"start":7313.598,"end":7338.519,"text":"我覺得這個問題對我來講都不是問題的原因是我舉一個韓國的總統他突然要喊戒嚴之後他是個總統他要逮捕議會的議員他都做不到因為韓國已經走到一個民主時代韓國的這個整個從威權到民主的過程是靠大學生衝在第一線被殺被抓我都在現場被噴過那個噴過那個催淚彈我心裡想韓國今天能夠走到"},{"start":7342.608,"end":7350.098,"text":"威權走到民主是靠大學生這麼勇敢的爭取來今天任何一個總統他要喊我要戒嚴他做不到"},{"start":7351.007,"end":7375.06,"text":"那就是一個時代的進步所以我剛才抱歉打斷部長他戒嚴成功了只是時間很短我要correct一下但是你要知道一個時代做不到他做到了沒有一個時代走到一個程度的時候他如果能夠倒退回去是個悲劇所以你剛才講說有人挺戒嚴我根本沒有感覺到這句話存在是你來問全台灣的人來大家投票你站不站成戒嚴"},{"start":7376.79,"end":7392.984,"text":"一定是非常非常少的人赞成所以当有一个人发言这样的时候他有什么意义他有没有你认为那个语言是不义吗那个一点都没有意义的话就是他随口讲的啊那个东西不代表整个时代走到一个就像我们今天可以在这边聊这么多我是"},{"start":7393.644,"end":7419.194,"text":"我是覺得他是一個很進步的觀念重新再反省台灣的歷史被迫害但是我不希望這樣的談話變成互相把倉巴再一次暴露出來大家互相又掀起大家的仇恨我覺得那不是我們今天想要的我們今天想要的是一個反省所以這是我個人的表達就是我們都是在很勇敢的反省過去所有發生的事情而沒有帶有任何的仇恨或者是要控訴這是我個人的想法 謝謝"},{"start":7424.955,"end":7446.604,"text":"主席裁決我們第一條就先保留好不好我們就往下走看能夠走幾條那工地會的事情我們可以到最後的時候來討論那第二條第一條保留那第二條條例主管機關為文化部這個部分有哪位委員要發言嗎那我看都是文化部只有鄭天才委員多了一個文化部之外"},{"start":7447.484,"end":7469.873,"text":"第二條有三個修正動議陳秀寶、萬美玲跟林倩琦林倩琦早晚也有我的你有修正動議是吧有啊修正動議還有那個就是林倩琦委員一起的還有林益菁委員那個張雅玲那個林益菁委員先張雅玲、陳秀寶、鄭天才"},{"start":7474.128,"end":7502.728,"text":"謝謝主席第二條我除了跟院版一樣以外還有另加就是說院版是本條例主管機關文化部那我還有加本法所定事項涉及其他目的事業主管機關執掌者由主管機關會同各目的事業主管機關辦理那為什麼會這樣子加這些所以我鑒於文資法它就是針對一般"},{"start":7503.789,"end":7523.158,"text":"文化資產的保存那主管機關拆分成中央的文化部跟地方的文化局那可是不義遺址不一樣就是說就院版的條文來看全國的不義遺址好像就是有單一有中央部會就是文化部來統籌保存跟活化的事物可是我必須要注意強調的一點是說"},{"start":7524.398,"end":7547.514,"text":"不移植實際上牽涉到各種不同機關的管轄權那文化部真的有能力獨當一面來統籌全國管理全國的不移植嗎這當然要好好的思考那根據文化部之前回覆本席有關於不移植盤點的臨時提案我們就可以看到促轉會先行審定的42處的不移植中"},{"start":7548.214,"end":7563.528,"text":"明確表達不願意設置標示牌的各種理由推脫設置標示牌的就有18處那管轄的機關從國防部法務部到各地方縣市政府都有那所以這個條例如果完成立法之後文化部"},{"start":7564.673,"end":7581.103,"text":"就能自動取得這些遺址的管轄權不用理會之前我說的那些反對或消極作為的相關的機關嗎所以這個部分可能還是請文化部說明說如果這個法令通過之後然後由文化部作為"},{"start":7581.903,"end":7606.526,"text":"唯一的主管機關的時候那這個跟各部會跟各機關的溝通文化部要怎麼樣處理那另外我將這個東西入法就由主管機關會同各目的事業主管機關辦理就是希望說文化部能積極強加強部會之間的橫向連結而不是因為涉及其他部會的權責就兩手一攤不關我自己的事"},{"start":7607.026,"end":7623.501,"text":"所以意思就是說本質上這就是一個要跨部會合作的推動的工作那所以不一一指的保存跟不一一指的教育其實也都是一樣的意思那這一點也請大家來一起討論好 謝謝林怡婧委員再來張雅玲委員下一個陳秀寶委員"},{"start":7627.901,"end":7640.089,"text":"然後再增添採購金那這一條呢其實我是跟那個議員有意見類似就是說我增加了第二項就是本條例鎖定設項涉及各目的世界主管機關業務時各該機關應配合辦理"},{"start":7644.372,"end":7669.472,"text":"因為之前呢在促轉會解散之後呢其實各項主管機關包含文化內政教育等等都要去承接相關的業務所以還是回到我講的我們必須積極的去活化積極的去做一些教育推廣不然就只是保存那個空間他並沒有辦法再把相關的一些意義讓後代子孫可以去理解那也成如剛剛已經講了就是說其實我們42處審定的名單其實現在掛牌的也不"},{"start":7674.415,"end":7700.4,"text":"那其實有很多的機關都非常的消極也不願意積極的來去配合辦理所以如果只有文化部在投入的話那我認為我們的相關教育工作會非常難進行所以我這個提案不是要否定文化部而是說我們可以增加更多的工具讓文化部可以來使用也可以希望讓更多的部會一起來投入那這個部分"},{"start":7701.5,"end":7722.751,"text":"也希望待會文化部可以來說明一下您的想法 謝謝謝謝 再來我們請陳秀寶委員謝謝主席 我這邊也呼籲以井跟雅玲的說法的看法其實博弈一職的保存管理跟推動轉型正義人權教育可能涉及的是文化部以外的各行政機關像法務部教育部等等都可以有"},{"start":7723.391,"end":7752.791,"text":"因此应该明定涉及其他目的事业主管机关的相关事务的话应该由文化部会同其他机关来办理来一例相关事项的推行所以我在第二条的部分有增第二项就是本条例所定是向涉及其他目的事业主管机关执掌者由主管机关会同各目的事业主管机关办理以免说只有文化部这样子来办理的话不够周全不够全面以上"},{"start":7754.072,"end":7755.013,"text":"第二條的部分"},{"start":7772.534,"end":7793.451,"text":"我所提的條文是針對原住民族的部分那剛才聽了很多委員的發言之後可能不是只有涉及到原住民還有客家甚至像雅琳都一直提到教育的那個部分所以我是可以支持這個"},{"start":7795.012,"end":7810.72,"text":"林怡瑾還有雅琳他們所提的這個第二項本法所定四項涉及其他目的事業主管機關執掌者由主管機關會同各目的事業主管機關辦理這個部分以上"},{"start":7813.053,"end":7828.919,"text":"謝謝再來高津庶民委員好謝謝剛剛對於這個第二條的部分這個條例的部分那個我也補充說明一下我的部分因為是有針對園民會的事務所以我特別提了就是園庶民委員會的角色"},{"start":7830.079,"end":7847.436,"text":"原住民族委員會作為政策統籌還有統合機關其實他們對日據時期日本政權對原住民族的迫害有很深入的理解相比之下文化部對於這樣子的歷史尤其剛剛李部長所講的"},{"start":7848.857,"end":7872.987,"text":"主說提出來的這個切割時間點的部分我們認為您對這個歷史的階段認識相對不足所以是我有點擔心所以我在第二條裡面要把園民會放下來當然萬美玲委員也把客家委員會然後怡錦委員是把其他有涉及到其他目的樹葉子管機關都放進來我覺得這是好事那我還是要特別提一下"},{"start":7873.587,"end":7898.815,"text":"原民會其實已經出版非常多關於原住民族重大歷史事件的研究的資料所以這個可以作為重要的參考所以我會建議一定要把原民會還有其他相關的機關納入相關的作業來確保歷史調查還有政策制定的完整性跟正確性以上的說明 謝謝"},{"start":7899.923,"end":7923.257,"text":"好 謝謝再來萬美玲委員好 謝謝朝委其實第一條以後說真的我都不知道要怎麼發言因為光提到不易以止四個字但我們其實在第一條是保留的所以我想我這邊這樣子來說明好了在這個第二條的部分本是認為其實要把威權時代擴大到這個日本的威權統治時期的"},{"start":7924.338,"end":7945.22,"text":"不管是现在的不育遗址或是我们要说的人权纪念场域的保存其实都会涉及到其他的族群这是我们刚刚所有的委员都有发言过的所以其实我认为其实我们应该不管是在会同这个援助民族或者是客家的这个主管机关来严商办理其实会比较周延那我举个例子"},{"start":7945.78,"end":7970.438,"text":"其實就是本席先前提到在1895年那胡家游率領客家義民跟日軍的安平鎮之役因為在我們桃園的平鎮的這個戰場上這個地址其實就是現在的平鎮區新光路六段那現在我們也把它立了一個胡家游以為抗日紀念碑那當時的這個壕溝那現在變成一個皮堂也就是現在的八角堂"},{"start":7971.078,"end":7986.375,"text":"所以其實像這些是不是其實都應該納入所謂的不義遺址或是人權紀念場域那這個呢就是涉及了客家族群所以主管機關文化部就應該要會同客委會一起來保存所以我想"},{"start":7986.995,"end":8009.247,"text":"在第二條的部分的話我跟高新素美委員在這條的主張比較類似就是我希望就是如果有涉及我們客家族群原住民這個族群的事務的那應該要由主管機關會同中央客家跟原住民族主管機關來辦理 以上好 再來郭玉琴委員"},{"start":8018.163,"end":8028.957,"text":"主管機關是文化部那當然剛剛其實很多委員他們有提到很多的這個狀況就是要有其他的這些部會相關部會一起來做這樣子的一個統合"},{"start":8029.718,"end":8053.96,"text":"我幫原住民講一下然後剛剛也接受這個鄭天才委員他的這個道歉然後我想這個如果說要一直在溯及到所謂的日治時代那我想原住民其實最有關係的其實應該是荷蘭人對台灣的統治當時其實在1635年到1645年這個小琉球島的對原住民的趕盡殺絕是荷蘭人那我想這個部分是不是也要納入啊"},{"start":8054.38,"end":8074.859,"text":"如果要一直不斷的在擴大這樣子的話題的話那我在另外228事件當中其實一樣也有受害的原住民包含林瑞昌事件、林昭明事件、林永明事件等等這個不易講的其實是殘餘的歷史記憶被栽贓下的一個苦難的日子"},{"start":8075.399,"end":8101.047,"text":"那我想這個在原住民在這個菁英他們在228事件之後也就是1950年被戒嚴的時候被羅織入獄其實也是都有這樣子所以我覺得我們就focus是不是能夠把這個事件就集中在集合在我們講的這個博弈移植的這幾年當中這樣子的一個時間點可能會更清楚好那個謝謝郭議員張雅琳委員"},{"start":8103.046,"end":8128.995,"text":"我再補充發言一下就是說其實在這個戒嚴時期威權統治的時期這個國民政府當時傷害的不僅只是台灣人嘛那其實是有非常多的族群都受害啦不管是原住民也好或各家民其實是相關的族群應該都在這個時期這邊遭受到一些迫害所以我還是希望說文化部可以來做一下說明喔因為你們原本訂的是主管機關為文化部嘛"},{"start":8129.395,"end":8147.62,"text":"但現在聽起來委員的意思都還是希望是說相關涉及的各目的事業主管機關都能夠來配合辦理這一點待會可不可以再做個說明謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員那我想就是有提案的委員都說明過那是不是文化部市王實施次長說明一下"},{"start":8148.28,"end":8165.045,"text":"好 非常謝謝委員的關心大概分兩個部分說明第一個在這裡面寫的主管機關的意思是我們是主管機關那各相關的事業或者相關的部會或者是地方政府它是所謂的管理機關因為它是所有權人也就是說它原來法定的設計是"},{"start":8166.385,"end":8195.326,"text":"由文化部來主管要求這些管理機關來執行這個不議職的保存任務這是這個當時設計的目的那第二件事是關於委員推詢到客委會員住民委員會這件事情那因為當初這個立法的時候我們認為在侵害人權的這件事上它其實是沒有分族群的但是在審議委員會就是在不議職的審議的時候審議委員會因為它的歷史而加入不同的"},{"start":8196.127,"end":8225.867,"text":"专业需求所以他如果是原住民的或客会的他在审议委员的时候会加入这样子的族群背景那这个部分在执法定定就可以就没有在无法定定但是因为刚刚的讨论之后我想委员比较关心的是说文化部有何德何能管理所有的不义遗址所以我们想我们可以支持的是在这个张雅玲的委员的这个版本里面有一个要求就是说本条例锁定的事业跟各目的事业主要机关的时候他们要配合办理"},{"start":8226.187,"end":8233.937,"text":"那如果這樣當然就強化了文化部作為主管機關的管理效果那如果是能有這樣的版本我想文化部是可以支持的以上說明"},{"start":8235.014,"end":8262.401,"text":"好 謝謝所以文化部可以支持那個張雅玲委員的版本就是涉及不管是客家原住民的時候該主管機關應配合辦理不知道這樣大家覺得可以嗎好 高精素美委員抱歉 我不接受次長你的說法其實在我們立法院裡面立法只要有關係到原住民事務的其實都會會同原民會這是立法體力所以您剛剛所提的那個部分我都不同意所以我會比較支持林一錦委員提的部分"},{"start":8263.021,"end":8278.56,"text":"就是本條例主管機關是文化部本法所定的事項只要是涉及其他目的事業主管機關執掌者由主管機關會同客目的事業主管機關辦理我認為這個部分是比較完整的謝謝"},{"start":8280.201,"end":8309.181,"text":"文化部次長跟部長都點頭這樣很高興那我們是不是就以林一金委員的版本通過第二條好 謝謝那我們就進行第三條我是直接建議第三條就保留好不好因為跟剛剛大家的議題是一樣的時期的定義我想要請教一下雖然我知道要保留但是我還是想要聽一下文化部的意見就是說因為我的這一條裡面大致和院版是相同的但是我在第一項第三款我新增了學校法人"},{"start":8310.661,"end":8335.048,"text":"因為其實很多學校其實也有不義遺址嘛像是說台大城汶城事件啊或是二八的顏平學院高雄中學學校法人還有淡江大學的軍訓科槍支等等等等涉及學校的部分是不是也可以說明一下你們的想法那個文化部這邊是不是說明然後待會那個政天才在高清說明"},{"start":8335.948,"end":8350.69,"text":"先跟委員做回覆我針對學校法人的部分因為我們在法文裡面已經寫了公法人所以學校法人基本上已經算進去那導致剛剛委員我們剛剛因為第一條保留我們就沒有回覆的就是在第一條裡面有幾位委員都很關心那個"},{"start":8351.997,"end":8369.378,"text":"教育文化推廣的事情那這部分其實在第一條裡面如果加入的話我們認為是可以接受的但是因為其實地點有些是私立學校嘛那私立學校也是有領政府的補助這些是不是也可以來作為一個不易移植地區型的基地呢這個部分"},{"start":8370.493,"end":8397.527,"text":"跟委員做說明因為在本法裡面我們只針對公有的不義遺址私有的不義遺址原則上我們沒有強制他被放進範圍所以只要是公法人就會有公立的學校但他如果是私立的學校基本上會尊重他們的意願會在對財產傷害最小的原則下才會執行所以在這裡面是沒有放進司法人的部分好 那個鄭天才委員然後再高清順便委員"},{"start":8401.71,"end":8413.361,"text":"這個第三條的部分這個行政院版還有其他委員的版本是用威權統治時期那我的用詞不叫威權統治時期是極權統治時期第三條"},{"start":8426.023,"end":8436.656,"text":"那個不一樣是不好意思是打錯了吧是打錯了好沒關係修正就好是打錯了這一本最早的這一本"},{"start":8439.617,"end":8466.696,"text":"是用集權統治時期集體的集那我思考了很久到底是要用集體的集還是要用中級的集我思考了很久啦所以這個部分是大家可以去參考我的條文那個集權齁雖然我不是政治學但我是政治社會學齁集權是像習近平那種我怕那個國民黨會不同意過去被定義成集權啦沒關係我尊重您的版本"},{"start":8467.366,"end":8476.277,"text":"跟國民黨沒有關係所以這個部分因為我的時間點是從清朝清朝清朝"},{"start":8479.53,"end":8502.535,"text":"極權統治時期指自清代至中華民國八十一年十一月六日指這個部分是這樣所以這個部分這個大家可以討論那為什麼呢剛才也很多委員有提到像荷蘭荷蘭就是清朝時期就是清代時期所以這個部分是這個是一個"},{"start":8504.436,"end":8523.533,"text":"這樣真話會更完整了那高金素美委員所提的那個1918那個也是清朝是不是不是日本我的是清朝我的是清朝以上請大家能夠支持謝謝曾天才委員高金素美委員"},{"start":8524.634,"end":8547.139,"text":"它的版本裡面第二項也有一個不易移植指威權時期它是第二個也是同步都改嗎?是全部都改嗎?剛剛鄭天才委員說它原來的版本是集權啦對 所以所有裡面的威權的字都改成集權式老師想確認一下它的確是最早的版本是集權啦你們整理的時候文化部整理版本可能整理錯誤了沒關係 那它已經澄清了那高金素美委員請發言"},{"start":8548.499,"end":8575.147,"text":"好第三條這個部分除了時間點之外呢他也有講不義遺址的這個定義還有公有不義遺址的定義還有一個那所以我還是必須等一下發言一下就是呢日令第26號剝奪了原住民的土地權也就是1895年也就是明治28年日本是以日令第26號發布官有林業以及樟腦製造業取締的規則"},{"start":8576.767,"end":8590.703,"text":"以法律無名文寫法律手段來剝奪了原住民族的土地權把原住民不可以證明所有權的山林原野化為關有地"},{"start":8591.844,"end":8606.482,"text":"連珠民族賴以維生的180萬公頃的傳統領域的土地我們現在只剩下了20萬公頃的準純質領域第二個我要談的是愛永縣愛永縣裡面有內藩界土地調查"},{"start":8607.043,"end":8622.73,"text":"也是從1908年開始日本展開了愛永縣內藩界土地調查五年事業他們宣稱全台灣的藩地均可視為官有地並成為日本帝國的財產這個完全剝奪了原住民的土地權第三個我要談的是"},{"start":8628.853,"end":8651.38,"text":"軍事討伐跟禮番計劃 這個都有非常多的地點還有歷史事件從1910年開始 日本實行以軍事討伐為目的然後禮番五年計劃 佐久間總督他親自率領了軍警對北部一直到中南部的山地進行了討伐跟掃蕩"},{"start":8652.56,"end":8681.135,"text":"它的核心的目的除了要征服原住民族當然還包括了要把原住民當時所謂的翻地收歸國有上述的歷史事實是日本威權統治時期對原住民族還有國人的迫害我認為應該要受到高度的重視並且必須要納入現行的轉型正義的處理範疇那這個部分呢我未來也會提案"},{"start":8681.855,"end":8700.154,"text":"然後我們來看一下日據時代它用於的法律依據是日據時代為什麼從以前到現在我從來不用日字這兩個字我用日據這兩個字因為完全不一樣我會提到日據時代這個一個名詞是言又從"},{"start":8701.175,"end":8723.062,"text":"民國89年制定的日據時代諸事會社台灣銀行海外分支機構存款還有匯款處理條例它是具有法律依據的所以今天我們要談到的所謂的不義遺址不管是您的威權統治不管是土地的問題不管是事件我認為只要有關"},{"start":8724.709,"end":8741.375,"text":"原住民跟日據時代我應該認為用日據比較相關歷史描述而且它是具有法律依據的那在這邊也提醒一下文化部部長這句話其實是講給您聽的請您未來您作為一個首長"},{"start":8742.728,"end":8763.418,"text":"您非常的重要如果用日治的話其實第一它沒有法律依據第二它是合法的統治事實上原住民族從來沒有離開過抵抗所以我們認為應該用日治這兩個字所以以上的補充說明謝謝"},{"start":8764.985,"end":8788.333,"text":"謝謝高津素美委員的發言我想第三條跟剛剛前面一樣是涉及到外民林委員要發言是吧對 我有一個部分我覺得可能要請那個昭偉這邊先釐清一下因為我不太了解因為我們一開始的時候就在提名稱的問題那我們現在不義遺址或者是人權紀念場址或者人權紀念場域這個部分我們現在是保留對不對"},{"start":8789.522,"end":8800.457,"text":"是確定保留送協商您稱就是保留這樣 對那這樣多數委員的版本是不一致啊就您剛剛好像有宣告嘛就是這個部分我們是保留送協商嘛那是確定保留送協商"},{"start":8801.988,"end":8826.975,"text":"名稱我剛剛是說暫時保留暫時保留的意思是什麼就是我們最後再回來看名稱要不要一致改最後還要再回來看就是我們已經照一條一條下來我兩個問題第一個就是說如果名稱我們是保留送協商那就是要保留送協商那我就不了解什麼叫暫時這第一個暫時是像我們委員會有時候就是全部審完之後看來大家是要把名稱一起送協商那我想這個我了解"},{"start":8828.595,"end":8842.76,"text":"我現在的意思是說因為為什麼這個名稱很重要你現在後面每一條我真的不知道怎麼審下去他們每一條都是不管在什麼地方通通有不予以止四個字那如果名稱都沒有定的話我後面到底要怎麼去審呢後面的每一條"},{"start":8843.2,"end":8870.048,"text":"我們其實最後的時候可以來討論這個部分那我覺得要不要就先討論如果說我們這個地方還是不能達成共識是要保留送協商事實上後面這一些就沒辦法審是不是要一起保留送協商這我提議召委來處理我建議我們就繼續走看能走多少如果到那一條大家覺得不一致這四個字就是我們最後審完之後再一起來看是這四個字一致保留送協商的話我們可以那個時候確定好不好"},{"start":8870.788,"end":8892.765,"text":"但是我覺得這個名稱很重要如果說重要假設但是假設有版本的十一個版本幾乎都是一人嗎你可以讓我把它說完嗎不意義只好您講你讓我把它說完一下就因為這個名稱很重要如果說現在召委的裁定裁釋是我們現在就是先把它審完避免前面在這個名稱上面的耽擱最後還是要回來討論這個議題為什麼不秀先也討論如果您今天就是要把這個議題要討論出來確定的話否則後面每一條通通"},{"start":8899.77,"end":8918.118,"text":"有不義遺址那這樣是要怎麼審不是 那周偉認為我們會越討論大家想法越清楚啦那因為其實大家都尊重而且每一位都認為不管你要叫他不義遺址或者有人要叫他人權傷害遺址都值得保留的話後面涉及到怎麼保留的部分應該共識性就比較高嘛"},{"start":8920.319,"end":8943.456,"text":"我们只是对于就是说他最后的名称跟这个时期要拉到所有的统治时期还是针对中华民国威权统治时期我觉得还是有一点点不一样的地方就是说我们现在如果不管是用哪一种名称然后呢假设今天即便你回过头来还是没有共识的情况之下我们是不是还是一样保留送协商嘛对啊"},{"start":8944.156,"end":8960.024,"text":"因為這個機會是很大的嘛那這樣子的話我們後面所有今天討論的個條裡面只要有不予以止那這樣不是很奇怪嗎名稱保留送協商沒有確定那後面我們照一個沒有確定的最重要的名稱然後一直把它審下去然後這個部分保留送協商後面難道就要出國園會嗎我認為"},{"start":8961.405,"end":8980.838,"text":"因為政黨協商他們不如我們對於文化部如何保留遺址這件事情專業我們應該把這個能數也都處理完只把比較政治性到底這個是要專法要針對中華民國威權時期還是要連荷蘭清朝都放進去那個可能是比較政治性議題那個再送政黨協商"},{"start":8981.658,"end":8996.989,"text":"所以我覺得如何保留這個部分我看版本最後後面其他條文的差異非常小那是不是我們就繼續往下走那我們第三條就保留有時候我還是歡迎一下那個魏委員這邊的講法因為這個東西在一開始我們名稱的保留"},{"start":8997.589,"end":9004.052,"text":"但是我們其實在剛才的討論我們知道大家對於族群然後事實上還有空間那這個議題如果在一開始沒有聚焦的話我們後面的這個討論幾乎就像剛才萬委員講的通通都牽扯到不義然後在不義我們其實一開始就討論到究竟是要正面表列還是負面表列那這其實也會牽扯到剛才有一些委員談教育的這個部分"},{"start":9021.3,"end":9045.376,"text":"那我覺得這個部分如果在一開始沒有共識那我們在一個很奇怪的完全沒有共識崎嶇的平台上討論下去我不認為這整個法是有系統的跟有邏輯的這是我以上那主席裁決我們休息五分鐘我們討論一下思考一下好不好休息五分鐘"},{"start":9373.456,"end":9395.468,"text":"好 那個我們休息完後那我們第三條保留好 那第四條我們針對第四條討論那有哪位委員要發言第四條修正動議有那個陳秀寶委員然後萬美玲委員 林建啟委員第四條主管機關的推動執行下列事項陳秀寶委員先發言"},{"start":9398.508,"end":9424.198,"text":"謝主席 在這第四條的部分是主要推動業務那本席認為說 定定不易移植個案資料保存及活化我認為應該主要是要如何連結不易移植跟歷史轉型正義跟人權教育的連結才是重中之重那如果只是保存不易移植把它當作一般的文資我們也失去了維護不易移植這個重要的意義"},{"start":9424.878,"end":9444.578,"text":"所以我希望文化部呢要會同教育部辦理相關教育事項所以我在第一項的我增訂了第六款的部分第六款我是增訂推廣不易移植相關之轉型正義及人權教育我會希望說除了說我們把這個長子"},{"start":9445.839,"end":9458.868,"text":"保留下來之外我們必須去連結相關於這個人權教育的部分這樣子才有本身我們去維護博弈子這個本身的這個意義以上好 謝謝林益菁委員"},{"start":9460.746,"end":9476.564,"text":"謝謝主席第四條我的版本跟院版的不同在於就是把推廣不義遺址相關之轉型正義教育納入主管機關依推動執行的項目之中"},{"start":9477.345,"end":9499.947,"text":"因為實際上不論是文化部主管的國家人權博物館又或者很多的民間團體其實都有在舉辦不遺址的解說小旅行介紹該場址相關的人權侵害事件那這塊土地曾發生的人權破壞其實必須要搭配歷史記憶的教育才會讓不遺址的保存價值更加彰顯"},{"start":9501.388,"end":9526.228,"text":"那所以剛剛秀寶委員的意思也是一樣就是好像也是把教育也加進去所以我想說是不是把這一條加進去那也彰顯說我們其實重視教育的主題性質然後讓這個教育的這個意義在這個裡面被彰顯以上謝謝 郭益勤委員"},{"start":9532.277,"end":9549.737,"text":"這一條的第五款我是特別新增在推廣不義遺址的轉型建議的教育那我剛剛有提到其實這個公民的教育其實非常重要也希望大家能夠藉由這樣子的一個教育的推廣來了解台灣在民主的過程當中的不容易"},{"start":9550.558,"end":9578.645,"text":"那我舉個例子其實去年2024年這個國家人權博物館的參觀人次大概只有23萬多人那分別是這個景美園區11萬還有一個綠島的園區12萬對比之下很多人都視為所謂的威權象徵的中正紀念堂它有404萬的參觀人次那可見就是我們這些遺址的活化跟教育的推廣的部分其實還是需要有很大的進步空間那主要的部分是在這裡以上"},{"start":9580.05,"end":9581.463,"text":"好 謝謝再來萬美玲委員"},{"start":9583.446,"end":9611.659,"text":"好 謝謝昭緯我還是有一點不太理解想要請昭緯或者是看誰能夠來說明跟解釋一下你看像現在我們來審到剛剛的第三條現在是第四條我回頭再講第二條的部分你看我們大家經過討論以後不管是誰的版本我們發現有好的版本我們大家都能夠接受的其實今天就不分黨派我們就同意了所以剛剛第二條是用移情的版本也很和諧所以"},{"start":9613.14,"end":9627.931,"text":"不會有什麼意識形態或者在這邊爲了爭鬥而爭鬥其實沒有但是真的我要回頭看我們不管第三條、第四條以及以後的每一條那幾乎都有提到不義於子的部分"},{"start":9630.213,"end":9654.284,"text":"那目前因為我們對於不議職這個名稱我們其實是沒有共識的不能說現在這個是好或不好那或者是我們有決定要用它不用它那就是還沒有共識還需要經過討論那既然是在名稱上都已經保留了我就不太知道雖然我這是第二屆當立委了可是我不太理解可以這樣子嗎就是現在我們討論到第三條第四條然後第三條剛剛是整條保留對不對"},{"start":9655.724,"end":9667.857,"text":"對 那OK 這我就沒有意見但第四條的部分現在有一些內容剛剛因為Joey來溝通的時候是說有一些內容我們其實沒有太大的問題我們是不是要讓它先過但是我理解到的我們在審這個法條的時候比較沒有這樣子說"},{"start":9670.72,"end":9692.223,"text":"這一條讓他過其中一個名詞我們把它保留下來再做更換那這個我不太理解為什麼可以這樣做那如果說按照我們名稱都還沒有確定的情況之下那是不是只要後面每一個條文裡面那遇到剛剛在第一條保留的部分我們變成要全部保留了所以我希望這個部分可以有在更明確的這個定義來我們才能夠往下走好不好"},{"start":9693.769,"end":9714.749,"text":"那我想 昭緯過去記得有經驗過就是說名稱大家有些不同意見可是其他的部分都有都有一致性的還是可以往前走因為最後要保留的時候我們可以知道就是說保留的是什麼原因只是名稱還是像現在零零幾五元或者是我的增加一個第六項要不要會同教育主管機關這個部分"},{"start":9715.329,"end":9736.487,"text":"所以我想因為我們的發言都有會議記錄都會很清楚知道我們保留的原因是什麼就算每一條都保留那如果我們知道後面只是因為名稱名稱解決了其實大家就只要協商名稱就好了那其他就可以請就是我們的法條整理人員處理啊所以我想我們到底保留的原因是什麼應該也都會被記錄"},{"start":9738.528,"end":9764.639,"text":"林建齊委員針對您剛才講的這個部分我不知道你們先前保留了說對名稱有意見是什麼樣子的狀況但是這個名稱是我們從一開始針對這個不義遺址的名稱大家就已經有意見了幾乎每一條都會牽扯到這一件當我們現在討論到第四條還有更有影響更大的是還有一個教育的推廣"},{"start":9765.399,"end":9781.626,"text":"那這個是對大家的觀念影響甚重的一件事情所以假設這個部分沒有共識而且也已經保留了那未來在這個地方它確實是一個主軸就是說我們如果還要再推廣我們還要再教育那這個主軸如果沒有定"},{"start":9783.167,"end":9801.859,"text":"對於要怎麼推廣這個對於正面或負面或者是在教育的這個觀念層次上它是最重要的一個核心如果從頭我們這個部分就沒有共識那後面的一個延伸出去的網路我們怎麼去確認它是我們原本要的立法議職呢所以我還是建議這個名稱沒有定這條還是保留"},{"start":9810.257,"end":9838.344,"text":"我知道你主張保留那我們看有沒有別的委員要發言好吧高金素梅委員我的修正版本就是按照行政院版本我有幾個問題想問一下文化部部長所謂的保存活化是什麼概念是什麼意思因為這裡面我們從來都沒有看到但是在這幾年當中我們卻看到了非常多的"},{"start":9839.344,"end":9851.684,"text":"以前留下來的不管是這個軍事的這個土地好像的活化大概都是有很大的爭議那中正紀念堂如果我沒有記錯的話"},{"start":9853.55,"end":9871.145,"text":"好幾屆大家都在談中正紀念堂未來把它卸除叫做不叫中正紀念堂叫做民主廣場但是呢曾經有聽說過所謂的不義遺址呢其實就是針對中正紀念堂"},{"start":9871.966,"end":9883.281,"text":"我提醒大家中正紀念堂那塊土地在台北市政府是核心地的蛋黃區所以我覺得所謂的保存活化"},{"start":9884.639,"end":9904.351,"text":"部長您應該要說清楚講明白第二件事情呢我其實對於剛剛怡瑾所談的條文就是推廣不義遺址相關的轉型正義教育我想請問一下其實現在在行政院裡面也有人權處他有針對人權教育也在做一些推廣"},{"start":9905.471,"end":9933.9,"text":"監察院裡面也有人權委員會針對這個部分也有在做教育推廣請問一下未來文化部要增加是不是在我們的行政體系裡面已經有三個教育推廣了那你們要做的跟他們會有些什麼不一樣那當然我的版本是沒有把教育放在裡面那麼對於儀錦的版本有放一個教育推廣我也沒有意見"},{"start":9934.52,"end":9962.199,"text":"但是我就是希望部長或者是次長你們能夠講清楚一下因為大家都說尤其趙薇說今天非常多的團體在透過我們今天的協商大家在看這件事情所以我不得不把大家的疑慮還有外面的傳說對於所謂的自由廣場所謂的活化你們要怎麼活化會不會又是另外一個財團"},{"start":9963.78,"end":9983.953,"text":"要進去了然後又會不會又會有一些問題存在我們當然不希望又有人因為那塊土地然後要活化然後呢就會有相關的一些貪汙啦一些法律上的這個違法事件那麼我想這個部分必須要說清楚好嗎謝謝"},{"start":9985.868,"end":10012.068,"text":"好 那針對這一條還沒有人要發言或是疑問的如果沒有的話我們是不是請文化部看哪一位做說明那個部長我先解釋一下那個活化其實活化是一個蠻中性的名詞它可能是利用這個地方在教育等等它不會是那個變賣財產什麼不是這個意思所以原來我們有把教育的目的定在這個活化裡面"},{"start":10013.406,"end":10040.914,"text":"中央建议团其实原来是在日本时代是个炮兵部队后来国民政府也是进驻军队所以它不是它不是不义遗址它现在只是因为把它定义成威权象征它不是不义遗址所以这点你不用担心说将来要怎么活化财团等等我想不是这个意思自我解释了对不起威权象征也在我们不义遗址里面吗请问部长没有"},{"start":10042.85,"end":10061.913,"text":"所以中正紀念堂就不在這個不義遺址的討論範圍之內跟委員做說明中正紀念堂始終不是不義遺址因為它是侵害人權的發生地那中正紀念堂並不是侵害人權的發生地所以它不是不義遺址好 不會來侵權的什麼什麼你剛剛說什麼 抱歉 次長"},{"start":10062.935,"end":10081.273,"text":"侵害人權的發聲地在不在不義遺址裡面我們未來會處理的部分不義遺址的定義就是侵害人權的發聲地對所以就是回歸到剛剛萬美玲一直在講的我們連這個名稱都沒有討論的時候其實呢這個我的建議也是保留謝謝"},{"start":10083.054,"end":10109.779,"text":"能討論的部分我還是做一個簡單的回覆因為包括林益菁委員 郭玉琴委員陳秀寶委員都有提議就是增加這個教育的部分那教育的部分就是我在一開始就說明其實轉型正義的教育是各部會都要負擔任務那但是如果要在這裡面強化文化部也要負擔這個任務我們是可以接受那不過只是要跟大家說其實每個部會都有在做所謂轉型正義或人權教育的推廣以上補充"},{"start":10111.792,"end":10136.15,"text":"雖然剛剛第三條我們保留可是大家其實版本都一樣除了時期不同可以看一下第三條第二項不議之旨行政院版本是威權統治時期國家為達成鞏固威權統治之目的所謂侵害人權事件之發生地具有歷史價值與轉型正義教育意義者鄭天才委員只是把那個時期加上一些還有原住民的部分強調可是大家都是強調侵害人權的發生地"},{"start":10140.273,"end":10167.664,"text":"那這條其實我也有版本那我的版本就是多了一項惠同教育主管機關推廣相關的轉型正義教育那為什麼我希望惠同那在這部分我也尊重文化部的看法那我想跟大家分享就是政治犯魏廷潮的兒子魏興勤他有寫過針對發生地怎麼火化的說法他說對我來說景美看守所龜山監獄土城的人愛莊等"},{"start":10169.125,"end":10186.702,"text":"都弥漫着窒息般的哀伤和一种很异样感的幸福在家人们悲伤愤怒以外其实他们给我们这两个孩子非常温暖的儿时回忆像是偷来一样的幸福和快乐让我忘记要走好远坐好久的车因为看得到爸爸笑眯眯脸庞的开心"},{"start":10187.222,"end":10210.243,"text":"如果你問我這些遺址要不要保留我希望能好好修整成一個和當地居民與國民們共生共好能永續經營的樣態建築物不一定要全部保留應該要朝永續經營的概念來思考他們存在越久越多人喜歡造訪越好我希望這些補遺址可以多元開放他們可以是小朋友奔跑玩耍的秘密基地"},{"start":10210.623,"end":10228.573,"text":"是藝術家使用的聚落空間地方李明來泡茶聊天的乘涼場所體驗政治受難者感受的教育場所他的父親就是未停朝政治犯我記得他是坐牢超過20年就是因為他寫了一個台灣人民自救宣言針對第四條第四條還有沒有要發言的"},{"start":10238.136,"end":10248.149,"text":"剛剛就是大家有不同的版本其實差異很小像我們我跟秀寶委員的我們的就是多了一個教育那這邊是不是文化部第四條"},{"start":10249.465,"end":10271.807,"text":"第四條我剛剛是回來提醒大家第三條雖然是保留我們只是時期有不同的看法可是不亦以止就是人權傷害人權的發生地是有一定的為什麼我們要再詢問一下因為我剛剛第三條處理完了因為回頭你又說第三條算是保留所以今天我都不太知道到底它就是保留還是算是保留它到底是個什麼情形"},{"start":10272.868,"end":10288.834,"text":"所以那是不是可以我們比較肯定的就是第三條現在是全條保留嘛第三條確定保留對對對但是我還是挺善心保留讀一下嘛因為它還是有定義所以中文紀念堂就不是這個遺址啊因為是傷害人權因為剛剛第三條已經處理完了啦對"},{"start":10294.838,"end":10323.954,"text":"那第四條文化部可不可以回應一下就是大家不一樣的部分好嗎對啊文條還是保留吧因為第三條也保留了第四條會連動的所以還是保留那文化部回應完之後我們就裁定一下要不要保留好不好第四條其實大家的意見沒有太大差異那關鍵就是要不要把轉型正義跟人權教育放進來那這一條文化部其實是覺得可以接受雖然其實各部會都有負擔這個責任但如果要在這裡特別強調我們也沒有意見"},{"start":10326.044,"end":10355.343,"text":"那所以文化部可以把教育的部分放進來是不是因為目前現在幾位委員的版本主要的差異就只有這個部分那這樣子大家還是覺得要保留嗎因為文化部可以接受因為我一直不認我還是沒有接受到所謂保存活化的意思是什麼未來而且還有那麼多個那麼多的地點嘛對不對所以呢必須要保留所以第三條是保留第四條當然也要保留第三條"},{"start":10355.523,"end":10381.312,"text":"我們要不再回應一下好不好 活化的部分你們可不可以說明一下不好意思 剛剛沒有回應委員針對保存活化第四條啦第三條有保留啊 次長我知道 我是說第四條對 第四條我建議也是要保留我是要回答委員對於保存活化的詢問因為我剛剛好像沒有回答這一題所以不用再回答了 好因為第十條也有特別針對保存活化做定義好"},{"start":10383.098,"end":10398.535,"text":"那第四條如果如果沒有委員要發言的話我其實是覺得可以不用保留但是委員一定要保留我們就保留好不好最後也許那我們進入第五條"},{"start":10400.297,"end":10423.921,"text":"第五條 除了我們11個委員之外還有林倩琦委員有修正動議第五條有哪位委員要發言好 高金素美委員好 第五條我們看到這個是主管機關為了要保護和審議不亦以止可以依照他的職權或接受提報進行調查所以他是調查的"},{"start":10424.421,"end":10444.074,"text":"但是我在裡頭跟行政院版本比較不一樣的就是說這個土地或者是這個要建物要接收的日本財產者應該也要配合調查那我的依據是什麼在這邊跟大家說明一下我們根據財政部財政史料層列示的資料"},{"start":10444.634,"end":10469.942,"text":"民國34年8月15號日本宣布無條件投降那麼他在台灣的公司產業歸中華民國政府來接收由於日本統治台灣大概達了50年之久中華民國政府為了要妥善接收日本財產由台灣行政長官公署跟警備總司令部他們共同組成了一個台灣省"},{"start":10471.182,"end":10487.434,"text":"軍事接收委員會並且他設立了日產處理委員會來專責處理日本財產的事宜第二個我要說明的是接收日產的類型分為三大類第一大類是日本政府的公有財產"},{"start":10489.295,"end":10509.407,"text":"第二個是日本人私有的財產以及企業財產例如台糖公司的大部分土地來源是接收於日本財產但是這些日本財產多數源自於原住民族的傳統領域土地"},{"start":10510.087,"end":10532.377,"text":"基于原住民族土地转型正义的立场对私人所有并且受调查的土地或者的建物应该视为接收日本财产理当纳入规范跟处理的范围而还有原转会就是在总统府里面有一个原转会的土地小组的历史调查"},{"start":10533.237,"end":10557.651,"text":"原住民族土地轉型正義委員會土地調查已經針對林業署、台堂、退府會等等機關取得原住民族傳統領域土地的歷史來進行調查並且已經提出報告了這些資料對於釐清相關歷史脈絡非常的重要這個也助於推動原住民族土地轉型正義的"},{"start":10558.992,"end":10573.329,"text":"進程然而接收日本財產跟原住民土地的關聯性有兩個例子我現在也說明給大家聽第一個就是台糖公司台糖公司它成立在1945年上海成立接收了日據時期的土地"},{"start":10573.849,"end":10589.644,"text":"然而原住民族傳統生活領域在當時被視為無主地我還是要把歷史遠遠講一下它直接歸給台唐土地1953年到1973年之間台唐公司辦理了五次的工地放領"},{"start":10591.005,"end":10615.75,"text":"因此原住民的土地因此大量流失這對原住民族的傳統領域的完整性造成非常重大的影響第二個例子就是日東紅茶1923年日本在今日的也就是現在的桃園大阪跟溫泉森林度假村一帶設立了東亞第一大的自茶廠"},{"start":10616.73,"end":10643.729,"text":"叫做大鲍茶厂同时在三的另一侧大鲍社传统领域的边界还设立了大辽茶厂这两间茶厂生产的日东红茶曾经名扬东亚但是它生产的基地实际上它是占用了原住民族传统领域所以我们这说明了殖民政策对土地资源的剥夺跟利用"},{"start":10644.329,"end":10673.464,"text":"以上我提的幾個例子充分的顯示日據時期日本財產的取得跟原住民族傳統領域的侵佔密切的相關所以我們應該要納為土地轉型正義的處理範疇來進一步還原歷史事實並且保障族群的權益以上做一些稍微長一點的歷史陳述也希望大家了解謝謝高金素美委員林一金委員要發言"},{"start":10677.071,"end":10703.547,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝主席第五條喔我跟院板的差異是院板是主管機關為保護及審議不遺址得依職權或接受提報是得那我是改成因喔那因為我想不遺址的保存經不起我們消極拖延那物理上不遺址可能會沒有及時保存而被破壞"},{"start":10704.247,"end":10726.039,"text":"那思想上我覺得歷史教育的推行也會因為拖延而受到阻礙甚至被遺忘所以我覺得這個積極度要有所以得要改成贏才能把轉型正義這個完整來做好 以上好 那第五條如果沒有別人要發言的話是不是請文化部回應一下"},{"start":10727.689,"end":10755.951,"text":"謝謝委員的指教這邊做個說明這一條的目的其實是在規範主管機關依職權接受提報之後進行調查所以對範圍的問題倒是沒有在這一條有所規範它應該是在剛剛的第三條跟第一條的部分來進行規範至於余經衛委員提到就是得改成因這件事因為整個對於保存活化的方式其實並不是以硬體的保存為主要的目標"},{"start":10756.631,"end":10779.58,"text":"就是在整個不易遺址的保存活化裡面它包括可以未來會在第十條看到它的保存方式包括這個樹立紀念碑或者是立下解說或者是數位虛擬的重建或者是辦理儀式因為有些地方它根本就沒有建物或遺構了那所以它其實比較不像文資就是有一個緊急性就是說如果你的"},{"start":10780.882,"end":10810.702,"text":"因為它不是以有形的這個建物作為保存的標的那我們為什麼建議還是用德是因為現在很多提報進來的其他並不太具有所謂我們在這裡定義的不移植的意義譬如說像現在很多它是用墓園那但是因為墓園並不是侵害人權的發生地它其實算是一個紀念場所我們就會用其他的法規用具有轉型正義其他意義去支持它但它就不會被列在所謂的不移植所以如果有一個德我們的主管機關在認定上面"},{"start":10811.302,"end":10832.554,"text":"會比較有空間去做適合他的認定所以我們比較是建議這個先不要改成因不然就是進來的案子我們都一律要展開調查會可能在人力上跟資源上會比較沒有辦法支撐以上說明 謝謝好 所以那個一經人可以接受還是用德是不是對"},{"start":10833.354,"end":10850.403,"text":"好 那這條黑魔委員要發言有啊 我剛剛 次長剛剛的說明對不起 我講了那麼長一段就是要讓大家知道它的因果所以呢 你們看一下第五條是主管機關為了要保護和審議不易以止"},{"start":10851.604,"end":10878.112,"text":"依職權或接受提報進行調查然後要建立個案資料然後再來接下來就是調查的土地或建物如果是私人所有要尊重他的意願所以要用適當的方式為之這些我都沒有意見但是我剛剛講了那麼長一段根據財政部史料層列式的資料非常多的土地是接收日本財產的"},{"start":10879.992,"end":10908.491,"text":"我認為這個都應該要配合調查而且這些資料都有所以在我的修正動議裡面但私人所有之受調查土地或建物為接收之日本財產證不在此限講白的意思就是說這個土地或者是建物如果它是接收的日本財產證也要配合調查所以這個部分如果有意見的話我認為也要保留謝謝"},{"start":10910.212,"end":10915.033,"text":"五條的部分我再說明一下它就是用促進轉型正義條例14條到17條來進行調查但是我們先決前提就已經錯誤了我們當初講說促進轉型正義那個時候就是因為"},{"start":10935.854,"end":10959.414,"text":"你們只有匡列到民國54年到民國81年嘛那你現在你第五條你又用這個你用促進轉型戰役那個時候的匡列的時間就已經跟我們一開始第三條也好或是說第一條也好我們討論的已經是不同了所以說我沒有辦法接受你用這樣子的部分應該是重啟全部的調查如果說我們在這一次所謂的不管是不義遺址或者是人權場域"},{"start":10961.913,"end":10989.012,"text":"這個條例通過之後那我們當然應該要重啟相關的一些調查部分那個時間點的格局要放大嘛所以在這一個部分上面我覺得這完全沒有辦法接受啊那你我不知道說公佈人這邊要怎麼樣去做調整因為你的本職行政院的版本你的先決框架你已經把自己框住就是民國34年以後嘛"},{"start":10989.537,"end":11000.41,"text":"但我們就一直強調從一開始今天早上九點到現在討論都已經是是不是要再更放遠所以說在這一條部分我覺得還是只能保留 謝謝那個郭育晴委員"},{"start":11001.892,"end":11026.25,"text":"好 這第五條剛剛就是文化部這邊有講那個因改就是還是用德啦就是基於這個資源跟人力的一個關係的配置但我發現其實我們大家其實在討論是不在同一個點上欸就是又有委員說要還是要再把這個日治時代再拉進來那其實根本跟我們講的所謂的不異議值的定義是完全不一樣的一個時間序啊"},{"start":11026.73,"end":11050.487,"text":"所以我不知道這個討論到底有沒有一個焦點然後再來我再說明一下我剛剛會用中正紀念堂是因為它是威權時期的象徵我講的是象徵並不是我把它解釋成它是不義遺址不是刑求也不是所謂的刑罰或者是執行審判的一個地方我沒有這樣講所以不要曲解我的意思以上"},{"start":11052.718,"end":11066.557,"text":"好 謝謝那個郭玉琴委員那這條如果沒有委員在發言的話那我看來我們就是 不會一直四個字喔就是說這個部分大家有不同的意見然後保留然後那我們第五條就保留"},{"start":11068.872,"end":11092.688,"text":"還有那個你是說還有高精素棉有一段也是跟時期有關因為它涉及到接收日本財產的私人所有財產者也一定要被調查嗎而且本來討論這個條例我之前就問過請教過部長部長也講是說它就跟促進轉型正義條例它其實是脫鉤的它沒有那麼直接的一個它不是延續性的立法"},{"start":11093.428,"end":11112.317,"text":"所以既然不是延續性的立法的話那我們當然不是說針對沒有 部長那時候回應的時候並不是延續性的立法所以說它是獨立的立法那既然是獨立的立法我們就需要好好的去來檢視就是說所謂的不義遺址或者說人權保障的一個部分好不好好 那個這部分部長有要回應嗎"},{"start":11126.288,"end":11138.356,"text":"剛才講說我曾經說過促進轉型正義條例跟這個脫鉤我沒有講過因為我知道我們這個法案是在促進轉型正義條例之下的執法我沒有講過"},{"start":11140.578,"end":11157.958,"text":"我想我們回去看促轉條例的話他其實就把相關這些保存不一直保存是交給文化部可是相關保存涉及到非常多的細節然後公有物跟私人財產這些都要明確的區分所以才會有今天這個法所以是不可能脫鉤的因為"},{"start":11160.3,"end":11186.645,"text":"促轉條例到現在為止並沒有修法嘛所以當然我們就還是就是依照他的定義國際的學者轉型的定義不過當然我知道有委員不同的意見那我們第五條就很明確知道是因為這樣所以我們第五條保留好嗎好那我們現在進入第六條第六條有那個三個修正動議是陳秀寶委員 萬美玲委員跟林建啟委員那有哪位委員要發言"},{"start":11188.422,"end":11212.728,"text":"好那個陳秀寶委員先然後那個張雅玲然後在那個高金素梅委員謝主席在這個第六條的部分是關於審議會成員的組成那我的修正綜議題的是在裡面要增加就是有涉及原住民主義的個案的時候審議會應該在額外的遴選在遴聘個案所屬原住民"},{"start":11213.208,"end":11242.508,"text":"主的代表那原民会代表以及原住民族文化相关的学者的来一起参与审议会能够更全面的观点来审议不议以此相关事项哦那我在这边增订的文字是涉及原住民族之个案时应在联聘个案所属原住民族代表原住民族主管机关代表及原住民族文化相关学者专家审议会委员任意性别不得少于三分之一以上"},{"start":11243.328,"end":11260.719,"text":"好 謝謝陳秀寶委員再來請那個張雅玲委員這條我的版本比較複雜啦就是我的第一項其實是正院版的第二項那我只是新增了因已主管機關作為審議會召集人的這一點那我的第二項也就是正院版的第一項"},{"start":11263.001,"end":11279.896,"text":"支援版的條文將審議會的功能劃分在審議不義一直和保存活化那我的條文還是加入了這個教育推廣的部分那我的條文後面有涉及到比較高強度的第十一條就是政府優先收購權那我認為就是執行重大工程的時候呢都也應該要經過審議會審議"},{"start":11283.959,"end":11307.304,"text":"那第十一條部分我待會在後面仔細說明那不過第三條也是我認為是最重要的部分因為今天鄭天才委員或是高金委員還有林倩琦委員都再三的強調原住民的這個重要性在我們的歷史上面的一個重要性那我也認為我們必須要從原住民的視角來去檢視這一段歷史也要去找原住民族一起來參與"},{"start":11308.644,"end":11336.48,"text":"所以呢也就是說當不義遺址涉及到原住民族時應該要比照原住民族的文化資產的處理辦法的第八條來邀請我們原住民族和相關的團體參與調查和審議的過程這一點我是非常的堅持因為政院的決議將不義遺址和既有的文化資產法規系統來分開處理的時候那麼在處理原住民族相關的不義遺址的"},{"start":11338.487,"end":11355.829,"text":"如果沒辦法用原住民族的文資法來處理的時候就會變成我們在審議原住民族相關不義子時法規沒有規定我們要質詢原住民族意見的時候那我就很有擔心他到時候可能會被審略所以這一點我是覺得非常重要的謝謝"},{"start":11356.55,"end":11375.357,"text":"好 謝謝張雅琳委員再來我們請高津素美委員等一下林怡婧好 第一條謝謝雅琳委員的重視還有您的建議我也認同那在我的修正動議條文裡面既然是這樣我把文字就寫得非常的清楚前項審議會由主管機關林聘歷史案件受難者具有轉型專業文化資產我們都發現"},{"start":11377.958,"end":11406.505,"text":"原住民族的歷史相關專業的人其實目前已經非常多了但是只要一談到不管是轉型任意原住民的議題這些人都沒有參與所以我在那個條文裡面就直接加了一個原住民族歷史相關的專業或實務經驗的社會公正人士或者是學者專家然後接著下來就是不具官方身份的代表人數不得已少了委員總人數的二分之一"},{"start":11407.225,"end":11430.055,"text":"然後涉及到原住民族的博弈遺址原住民的代表總人數不得少於我原總人數的三分之一然後接著再來就是博弈遺址是只要是涉及到原住民族重大歷史事件它的相關事項辦法應該要由主管機關會同原民會主管機關來定之這個不是有案例所以我要請大家看一下"},{"start":11431.575,"end":11458.241,"text":"這個案例就是我們最近才剛剛審照的海洋保育法的第八條這個法裡面就規定了在海洋庇護區的審議會裡面原住民的代表總人數寫得非常清楚是不得於少於委員總人數的三分之一這樣子的規範其實就是為了要平衡族群代表性而且也是一個成功案例所以也可以作為制定相關法案時的重要參考"},{"start":11459.381,"end":11480.06,"text":"所以我認為把這些元素明文規定還有這個名稱寫得非常清楚有助於來彌補歷史的遺漏然後增強原住民族參與的代表性跟專業性我們可以讓這個轉型正義的推動更加全面性而且具包容性以上的說明 謝謝好 謝謝林議員請發言"},{"start":11483.943,"end":11508.825,"text":"謝謝主席第六條本席這裡是有文字的修正建議就是說在臨聘審議會委員的部分希望在政治案件受難者的文字前加上威權統治時期所以具體的建議就是威權統治時期政治受難者以求這個定義的明確以上 謝謝好 謝謝再來請鄭天才委員請發言"},{"start":11510.386,"end":11526.546,"text":"我的版本這個是在第二項的部分跟行政院版本不一樣那也謝謝雅琳有特別把原住民族的部分納入進去我的第二項是前項審議由主管機關臨聘"},{"start":11528.548,"end":11553.697,"text":"歷史案件 我是寫歷史案件行政院的版本是政治案件歷史案件受難者 既有轉型正義文化資產原住民族群歷史相關專業或實務經驗之社會公正人士或學者專家及官代表組成任意性別不得少於三分之一那這個第三項的部分 我在後段的部分"},{"start":11554.497,"end":11569.01,"text":"特別提到不宜以此涉及原住民族重大歷史事件其相關事項辦法由主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定之請大家能夠支持以上謝謝好 謝謝羅廷薇委員請發言"},{"start":11572.179,"end":11593.438,"text":"好那第六條這個部分剛剛大家都在討論有關於就是代表的部分那我想包括秀寶委員還有其他委員有提到這個原住民增加原住民的一個代表那當然我們認同那但第二個我要跟大家特別報告的是包括228其實在客家政治的一個案件也是非常的多數不勝數"},{"start":11594.639,"end":11614.446,"text":"所以我也要拜託就是如果有牽扯到客家的部分希望有客家代表那這個部分也希望大家一起來支持謝謝好謝謝羅廷輝委員那這個部分我也說明一下我的版本我的版本也是在任意性別不得少於三分之一之後就是院版這個之後加了一個審議"},{"start":11615.506,"end":11630.957,"text":"一涉及原住民族之個案時因額外聆聘個案所涉原住民族之代表據點其他部分跟院版的是一樣的所以針對大家不同的部分是不是文化部哪一位要說明一下"},{"start":11632.881,"end":11651.747,"text":"跟委員周說明委員剛所提到的針對審議委員會的組成包括有原住民客家或者是性別這些原則其實我們有立一個執法它跟我們當初在文字法審議委員會的做法是類似的就是會有一個不一一指審議作業及審議會組織運作辦法所以在那個辦法裡面是規範"},{"start":11656.769,"end":11681.491,"text":"這個組織成員的背景那所以我的建議會是說是不是這個對於成員的背景因為本來我們在辦法裡面也是這樣規定就是他牽涉到誰那這裡面的審議委員就要有誰譬如他牽涉到原住民他就要有原住民他牽涉到客家就要有客家他如果牽涉到政治受難者譬如說228的政治受難者那就要有228最好是有政治受難者的家屬或代表那如果沒有也要這方面的學者他本來在"},{"start":11682.563,"end":11701.981,"text":"组成的背景内容上面就是这样去规范的所以我是建议说这一条是不是可以类似像做成附带决议让我们在定定执法的时候把这个部分都放进去这样子我们不用在母法里面就写得非常的清楚那包括各目的事业主管机关因为刚刚我们在第二条的讨论已经把各目的事业主管机关放进来"},{"start":11702.361,"end":11728.067,"text":"所以更目的是業主管機關在這一條如果牽涉到原則上他就會被放進審議委員會那至於官方代表少於二分之一或者是性別比例不得超過任意單一性別不得少於三分之一這大概都是基本的他本來就一定會在這一類的審議委員會裡面一定做成規範所以我的建議是不是可以變成是一個附帶決議或者是說明讓我們在執法裡面以這一條做拘束去訂定執法的組成成員的內容"},{"start":11729.672,"end":11758.753,"text":"所以文化部這裡是告訴大家說其實他們的執法涉及不同族群不管是剛剛羅廷偉講的客家或者是我們很多委員關心的原住民的就會有那個族群的代表在審議委員這是他的一個基本的規定那如果大家不放心的話可以用附帶決議或者放在法條說明中處理那不知道大家對這樣高金素美委員我有一件既然你們這辦法跟裡面都有的話為什麼不在法條上就沒有規定了呢"},{"start":11759.413,"end":11782.897,"text":"好不好我的建議如果在法體上沒有任何的你就就針對這我是不是就是針對大家包括客家的這個就是把它放在裡面好不好看一下文字怎麼怎麼說把大家的意見這個大概可能感覺上是比較沒有意見把客家也好原名也好還有人數也好或者是有原住民族歷史相關專業實務經驗的社會工作這好像沒有意見"},{"start":11786.078,"end":11812.456,"text":"那是不是看文字把大家一直把它放進來然後整理成一條好 那那個羅廷威委員好 那基本上我的態度也是一樣既然你的附帶決議跟執法你有說到已經有這樣子的一個原本的一個辦法了那就把它入母法嘛並不會造成說變成母法就會自愛難行那當然我要再另外提出我希望我們對於這一個"},{"start":11814.857,"end":11840.451,"text":"當事者不管是原名客家性別我們都關注希望他們能夠為其發聲我們也希望這個審議委員會裡面的政黨代表不能有可以更多元性讓各個聲音少數的政黨任何的政黨都有發言的機會我也希望能夠寫在這個裡面政黨的代表是不是能夠也多元然後不要有特定"},{"start":11842.725,"end":11849.039,"text":"好 這部分還有沒有人要發言好 那個林倩琪再講雅玲"},{"start":11850.458,"end":11877.294,"text":"好 謝謝教委我這邊也是呼籲一下剛才羅委員這邊所講的但是我還是回到原本我們剛才討論的這個部分第一這個部分還是討論到這個所謂不義於止那雖然這個文化部這邊有談到說相關的這個法律裡面比如說文資法可能有一些訂定那如果是這樣子我們其實又回到那這整個在文資法裡面去做討論也是一個類別嘛所以今天我們討論的"},{"start":11878.234,"end":11893.953,"text":"在一個重要的主旨上就是我們這個名稱未定就會牽扯到剛才文化部這邊所談到的這個政治案件的受難者那這個其實羅委員這邊講的也很有道理如果你們的版本是談到政治那這個"},{"start":11895.074,"end":11915.264,"text":"政黨比例被列入進去應該是很基礎的考量可是如果考量到剛才我們政委員這邊的版本他談到的是歷史事件這其實就呼應到我們從一開始在討論的在時間軸上還有主體性上還有這個族群上其實我們在這個部分還是回應到"},{"start":11916.277,"end":11935.506,"text":"我們講的這個法條最重要的一個基礎嘛到底你是要談這個整個歷史事件不同時期發生的被壓迫那還是針對某一段事件然後有某一些立場上不同所謂的正義或不義這還是回到基本的問題所以我的訴求還是保留"},{"start":11936.586,"end":11953.639,"text":"好 那個張雅玲委員要發言好 那其實我自己也是蠻希望就是說這個東西原住民的部分我還是希望可以入法那我想我唸一下第三項讓相關的委員可以聽聽看我是不是接受我的這個版本就是說當然不議職的部分大家都有各自的爭議但是我想"},{"start":11954.48,"end":11968.086,"text":"後面就是說審議涉及原住民組織事務時因會同原住民族主管機關並邀請所屬的原住民族部落其他傳統組織及利益團體原住民族文化資產相關專家學者及審議會委員辦理現場會刊或訪查"},{"start":11973.628,"end":11997.46,"text":"來彙整意見做成現場勘查或訪查結果記錄及邀請前述團體及個人參與審議程序但無法知悉所屬部落或其他傳統組織及利益團體者不在此限我覺得這個版本可能會相對來說是更完整的去保障原住民的發聲的這個權利啦所以我也希望說在這個部分如果在除了名詞的爭議之外後面的部分是不是大家可以一起來支持這樣"},{"start":11999.824,"end":12015.432,"text":"謝謝張雅玲委員那如果沒有其他委員在發言我們再請文化部回應一下謝謝各位委員的關心先跟各位說明其實這一條誠如各位所說的它的問題會發生在到底那個範圍的界定因為這一條我們並不是以這個"},{"start":12017.393,"end":12044.247,"text":"這要是純粹規範程序而不據論它是哪個族群或者因為什麼理由那它的規範程序的意思就是說只要有牽涉到這一個類型的人權侵害案件那就要有這個類型的代表來進入審議委員會那所以我們為什麼是說在這個審議會組織辦法裡面在做第一個當然就是說母法跟子法它本來就有法系架構的橫平性那如果在母法裡面就規範審議運作的細節就反而會表"},{"start":12047.208,"end":12071.233,"text":"變成掛一漏完就會變成說如果我在無法裡面沒有規範的那我是不是就可以不用遵守那只有在執法裡面才需要遵守那這樣其實是沒有什麼道理應該是把強勁的規範都放進執法的運作規範裡面使得它的在代表跟組成的決定上是比較清楚的那另外特別有提到就是說因為政黨並不被我們當作一個族群那因為"},{"start":12072.193,"end":12097.218,"text":"做出侵害人權的執政者有可能是任何一個政黨那所以我們並沒有把政黨作為一個代表比例放進去因為在做侵害人權的時候政黨不管是哪一個黨可能都會是一個需要反省跟檢討的對象所以是不是可以懇請委員支持我們把這些文字我們做一個確認就是我們做一些作業然後我們把這些文字放進這個組織運作辦法裡面去做規範這樣子在"},{"start":12101.539,"end":12125.587,"text":"明確度上跟執行上 因為它是執行法這個執法基本上就是運作的執行的執法那它會比較有完整詳盡的去規範真正可以執行的方式是不是可以拜託委員好 文化部還是希望說能夠授權他們放在執行的辦法中那因為他們現在本來就是這樣在執行那那個 張雅琳委員要發言"},{"start":12127.649,"end":12146.17,"text":"我想我的部分如果要把一些的內容落入執法我沒有意見但是我希望精神上我們是不是還可以去彰顯這些原住民族的意志我們這個精神是不是還可以怎麼樣去縮減濃縮把這個精神可以呈現在母法上面好 這個部分我們可以做到"},{"start":12147.145,"end":12166.241,"text":"OK那所以做到所以是文化部等一下會給我們一個文字嗎把這些文字做一些精簡之後看是不是大家都如果同意的話我們就讓他把它放進執法裡面可以嗎但是或者是說要用附帶決議來做不急著現在提文字當然對我們來說更好那個高精素美委員要發言嗎"},{"start":12168.427,"end":12185.897,"text":"我的建議是這樣子我認為就是曾天才委員的第二項那個部分歷史這個部分因為我們也談到不僅僅是原住民包括客家族群所以是不是用各族群的歷史相關然後第三項部分我覺得雅琳的那個不錯"},{"start":12187.337,"end":12214.389,"text":"不錯但是啞鈴那個但無法知悉所屬部落或其他傳統組織及利益團體則不再此現這個在部落是不會發生的但你前面那個文字社可以都按照您的那個本本所以我的建議是不是參照這個鄭天才委員的那個部分我們把它列為各族群然後第三項部分用啞鈴的部分但啞鈴的部分那個但無法知悉那個部分可以刪掉"},{"start":12215.924,"end":12243.849,"text":"我建議還是在法條裡面訂定啦不是在附帶決議或者是辦法裡面謝謝那看起來這條大家對於要不要把就是說族群就是要放在那個條文中就是有不同的意見那這部分我們是不是其他的部分好像看起來都有共識嘛就是族庭的部分那我們是不是這個第六條也先保留"},{"start":12245.663,"end":12260.872,"text":"好 OK好 那我們進入那個因為其他的有討論過大家至少更有共識了好 我們現在進入第七條第七條修正動議有那個陳秀寶委員跟林倩琦委員的那第七條有哪位委員要發言陳秀寶委員然後等一下是張雅玲委員"},{"start":12267.217,"end":12284.217,"text":"謝謝主席第七條是關於不義移植審議通過去公告及救濟那不義移植其實經審議會審議通過後由文化部公告那但是如果這個場域是私人所有也會影響到當事人的權益因此呢將私有的不義移植所有人"},{"start":12284.517,"end":12304.89,"text":"或是内涵关系人对于被认定为不一只是行政处分如果有不符的时候他们可以依法的提起救济民定于这个条文里面让民众知悉就是他们相关的权益也落实民众财产权的保障所以在第七条的部分我对说中间更容易提的版本是"},{"start":12305.931,"end":12307.733,"text":"就把这个相关的权益明定在里面以上"},{"start":12325.692,"end":12341.53,"text":"好謝謝秀寶委員再來張雅玲委員好那其實我的部分也是去強化了啦就是有關於教育推廣的五個字那一樣就是來去希望去彰顯推廣不移植的積極性謝謝好謝謝高金素美委員"},{"start":12342.151,"end":12362.717,"text":"我簡單講一下第七條跟我修正動議第五條一樣原因是因為接收的日本財產自然是要納入規範的範圍所以我在後面有加第二項第二項裡面有私人不義遺址未接收之日本財產者依公有不義遺址規定來辦理但是行政院版本是輔導"},{"start":12365.718,"end":12392.206,"text":"謝謝高精素美委員那如果這條沒有別的委員要發言的話是不是請文化部也回應一下這些版本跟委員做報告這一條修法委員在提到公告的這個部分可以依據就提起行政訴訟這件事情有兩件事要說明第一個對於私有的不予移植的公告因為我們在第九條有規範因為它是考慮所謂公益性與必要性而且是尊重"},{"start":12393.646,"end":12419.994,"text":"現況的土地漁或建築所有人意願在對財產權侵害最小的情況下為之所以他原則上很可能只做公告而沒有其他的動作如果這個財產權的所有人並不同意的話那第二個就是說本來行政訴訟這件事情就是人民的權益他只要不服他都可以提起那在這裡面明文規定會有一個狀況可能要請委員幫忙橫著的就是說"},{"start":12420.894,"end":12441.588,"text":"意思就是說如果他對公告本身都可以提起行政訴訟也就是我們對歷史事實的陳述因為公告基本上他可能就是在網站上做個公告在這個我們的論述上或者是未來我們的出版品上可能會列出但他如果可以對公告本身就提出行政救濟的話意思就是說他是可以把這個史實抹消的"},{"start":12442.088,"end":12463.309,"text":"就是他可以說沒有我不願意接受這個公告那所以這個行政訴訟是不是要這樣規範可能請委員再做審酌那其他對於教育推廣的部分我想我們就跟前例一樣我們其實是可以支持的那你要不要回應高金素美委員的那個日治時期財產的那個部分"},{"start":12465.287,"end":12492.634,"text":"第五條跟第七條其實呢我都放了日據時期的因為我剛剛已經講過了接收日本財產可以分為日本政府和公有財產日本人的私有財產還有企業財產這三種那這三種呢如果要歸咎我們的那個傳統領域的部分的話是要講得非常的清楚所以呢接收的日本財產自然當然要納入規範的範圍以上謝謝那個等神秀堡委員講完再一起回應秀堡委員"},{"start":12493.832,"end":12510.608,"text":"謝謝主席那我再問一次就是說剛才次長您的回答就是說這個不義遺址他如果審議過後他只是公告他並不是一定會實質上的對這個財產所有人有他的權益或侵犯檔他只是公告而已"},{"start":12513.647,"end":12526.024,"text":"私有的部分有可能因為私有的部分會尊重財產所有權人的意願而且他是對財產侵害最小的方式所以如果他都拒絕的話有可能職能公告了解那我這樣接受你們的說明謝謝"},{"start":12528.667,"end":12551.29,"text":"所以關於私人財產的部分 秀寶委員接受文化部的解釋跟版本那關於就是 現在就是高金素美委員這邊有那個關於接收日本財產者要依公有不義遺址規定辦理這部分那個文化部有沒有回應如果他一旦是接收變成公有的部分他就會變成是公有的 他就會是強制的"},{"start":12554.008,"end":12567.515,"text":"但是私有的部分我們還是會建議是尊重財產權所有人不然的話如果是私有的部分我們會變成是侵害財產權那這件事在法議上面有點難以好理解所以我剛剛才會花很多的時間把這個"},{"start":12569.136,"end":12593.881,"text":"国业财产局的历史的公告让大家清楚知道我还是在讲一下不管台坛公司或者是我刚刚提的一个例子叫做日东红茶就是大报社的茶厂大家都知道这段历史小树那个头目其实现在这个茶厂就是他的土地他的子女都清楚知道所以你说他现在是不是失言是他是因为他被转手卖了三五次"},{"start":12594.961,"end":12613.716,"text":"那我們要找誰呢 現在是變成私人的啊所以我才會說 如果有意見的話就保留嘛好不好 謝謝那第七條喔 我們其他大家都有共識那就是高清素美委員那個要不要規範喔接收日本財產 依公有不依止規定那個部分我們因為這樣保留好嗎第七條我們就很知道保留原因了好那個保留之外 法務部能夠研究嗎法務部是不是可以回應一下"},{"start":12625.421,"end":12637.576,"text":"好 那我聽 好 他們聽到了他們在場好 那再來我們進入第8條第8條只有林建基委員一個人修正動議那其他的都已經整理在這裡第8條有沒有哪位委員要發言如果沒有的 林益勤委員 好"},{"start":12646.582,"end":12667.081,"text":"對 第八條我是在第三項喔跟院版不同喔只差在我的那個第三項裡面的文字是第一項保存活化計畫知擬定這是院版那我是知擬定與執行因自主管機關公告怎樣怎樣就是說公告"},{"start":12667.861,"end":12684.393,"text":"兩年內完成那本來院版是只有在擬定要公告兩年內完成我是加執行那當然我是覺得擬定計畫我們被規定要在程序內完成時間內完成那執行也應該要儘速辦理"},{"start":12687.595,"end":12707.697,"text":"不然然後我說擬定計劃有限定時程然後在執行的部分卻沒有被規定時程所以這個其實也是期待說整個工有補益於止的保存跟活化的執行進度要加強以上好 謝謝郭玉琴委員 下一個張雅琳委員"},{"start":12709.655,"end":12734.401,"text":"這個部分我跟這個易經委員是一樣的就是擬定之後我多了一個執行啦那還是要提醒這個文化部在審定作業的規範跟人力要逐步的到位所以這個部分其實就是希望在預計115年能夠完成全處大概有64處的這個不易移植的一個公告然後也希望資源用在對的地方就是時間不要計畫不要拖延以上"},{"start":12736.44,"end":12749.7,"text":"好 謝謝張雅玲委員好 那這一條我的其實大致相同啦只是我一樣是在第一項加了教育推廣和符合轉型正義的精神那為什麼要特別強調符合轉型正義的精神是因為防止"},{"start":12750.942,"end":12772.927,"text":"防止有不孝业者或是申请人透过申请补助的方式却执行与转型正义或不义遗址无关之活动甚至对遗址有伤害跟损害的装修方式这部分应该要透过法条来去做限制那第二项的部分呢其实在后面的条文都有规定主管机关可以补助"},{"start":12773.587,"end":12785.247,"text":"那這邊多一項我是不特別反對啦只是提醒大家後面其實已經有授權你們可以訂立補助規範了那第三項我一樣是加入了教育推廣的計畫另外也在條文中加入要經審議會審議"},{"start":12787.901,"end":12816.149,"text":"好 這是因為我把後面的保存活化的計畫應將這個審議會審議的條文定錄在這一條裡面這樣子謝謝好 謝謝那第八條如果沒有委員要針對自己版本發言的話是不是請文化部那個林倩琦委員抱歉好 謝謝昭緯那我還是一樣在這個定義上不輕那剛才這個活化的這個計畫文化部講的好像也跟我們文資法沒有太大的差異的話那我覺得這個部分我還是"},{"start":12817.389,"end":12844.66,"text":"建議保留那我們是還是先請那個文化部回應好 針對委員的幾個提案先做說明第一個就是林基委員跟郭慧琼委員針對這個執行變成是擬定的部分加上執行那這部分特別說明一下因為它跟文資的不同是在於說它其實不是以有形資產為保護的關鍵那所以它的執行是不是要"},{"start":12845.6,"end":12860.157,"text":"要怎麼列入這個擬定跟執行2加1的這個規範裡面其實即使是在文資都沒有這麼高強度的一個規定就連文資都沒有加入執行那原因是說譬如說它的保存方式如果是虛擬的重建"},{"start":12862.259,"end":12886.184,"text":"這也是可以被允許的在這裡但是如果它是毀損的話就剛剛委員有關心就是有其他的張海琳委員有關心那如果是毀損的話基本上毀損會有罰則包括它是一個刑事的責任所以它是一個很高強度的毀損的懲處那所以在這裡在執行上我們的判斷是即使這樣規範了恐怕就會使得很多的管理機關"},{"start":12888.965,"end":12913.279,"text":"他就更没有意愿提出一个愿意好好规划跟花时间去处理的保存文化计划他可能就会提出一个比较低强度的很容易的比如他就设立告示牌就结束或者是他就写一篇解说就结束那这个是我们比较不希望看到的我们比较希望可以辅导这些管理机关都可以有相对应比较完整跟具有推广跟扩散教育价值的这一类的方案"},{"start":12913.719,"end":12943.039,"text":"所以其實請委員考量是不是不要把執行跟計劃擬定的這個年限綁在一起這樣那另外那個對於範圍的部分我就不再重複就是的確就是我們希望我們現在目前的脈絡都是在既有的不易移植跟的定義之下所做的一些規範的範圍好那這個部分那個剛剛張雅玲委員這些有版本可以接受文化部的解釋嗎就是執行的部分張雅玲委員"},{"start":12945.964,"end":12956.961,"text":"喂 抱歉所以聽起來就是維持原提案嘛不建議再加上這些條件嘛這樣才能夠去增加更多的可能大家更積極的作為是嗎 是這樣子嗎這是我們的判斷 對"},{"start":12959.574,"end":12979.601,"text":"好 謝謝所以你們都同意嗎 那個林怡婷兩位同意所以我們第八條還是有委員希望保留就除了不亦以此定義之外其他的委員都對條文接受文化部的版本但是我們第八條因為不亦以此四個字定義跟其他條文一樣我們因為這個原因保留 這樣清楚了我們現在進入第九條"},{"start":12984.261,"end":12996.308,"text":"第九條是關於私有不義遺址的保存活化第九條那個張雅玲是第九條跟第十條其他委員的版本都是第九條那林建啟委員有修正動議"},{"start":12997.984,"end":13022.21,"text":"好 那第九條針對私有那個高金素美委員要發言好 親戚委員那個修正動議就是我們一起的所以第五條 第七條 第九條都保留了所以我認為第五 第七條都保留第九條一樣保留對於私人不義遺址為接收之日本財產證準用前條之規定所以它是有聯動的以上 謝謝好 那個張雅玲委員請"},{"start":13023.61,"end":13052.873,"text":"好 我的這一條呢主要是在第二項我新增了專業諮詢和協助擬定執行計畫可以委任民間團體來辦理一方面我認為是可以減輕行政部門的人力負擔因為隨著我們未來可能會有越來越多的這些不義遺址那我希望是可以來在法規裡面訂的這個部分那第二個方面也是讓我們的民間有更多的機會和管道可以來參與相關的不義遺址保存工作同時也可以讓公民團體擔任第三方的監督計畫角色"},{"start":13054.255,"end":13061.292,"text":"那我的修改的部分大概是这样谢谢谢谢张亚玲林一经委员要发言"},{"start":13064.873,"end":13086.975,"text":"第九條 私有不義遺址的保存跟活化是不義遺址保存跟標示上稍微困難的地方那畢竟它涉及人民的財產權那我認為基於不義遺址保存的歷史教育意義我們應該以利多的方式來鼓勵私有不義遺址財產所有人"},{"start":13088.815,"end":13106.381,"text":"並在文化部的監督下進行標示所以本席認為如果可行的話是否能將給予獎勵或補助的條文文字改為因著予獎勵或補助之而不是用"},{"start":13107.541,"end":13132.969,"text":"得選擇性的決定要不要給獎勵或補助當然這一切還是要經過審議才能發放獎補助只是希望可以透過更大的誘因來鼓勵私有不義遺址財產所有人來提報以求這個不義遺址建立的完整性另外如果參考文資法第27條第二項的規定本席的版本有新增第九條對 第五項這一條的第五項"},{"start":13136.191,"end":13162.292,"text":"內容是私有不義以止之所有人使用人或管理人提出第二項之計畫有困難時主管機關應主動協助擬定保存活化計畫所有人對於其財產被主管機關認定為不義以止之行政處分不符時得依法提起訴願及行政訴訟"},{"start":13164.994,"end":13188.869,"text":"這部分就是剛剛我提及的畢竟私有不義遺址日常的管理維護是它能否永續保存跟活化的重要關鍵簡單來講我還是希望主管單位文化部在處理不義遺址的態度要認真積極至於在第六項的部分是考量到私有不義"},{"start":13189.67,"end":13206.513,"text":"以止這個財產所有人的行政救濟因為雖然文化部有回應說這部分應該不用徵定可是我想說跟我參考文資法第九項的這個案例有關於私有產權如果需要行政救濟的部分那建議也明定入法以上"},{"start":13207.779,"end":13230.925,"text":"好 那針對這個第九條私有不移植部分保存文化那如果沒有別的提案要說明的話文化部是不是回應一下好 謝謝委員在這一題我們大概幾項一起說明第一個是詹哈林委員這邊提到協助擬定執行計畫或委辦等等那這個我們的建議是說是不是能夠讓我們提供諮詢或者是這個保存文化的這個"},{"start":13234.265,"end":13249.234,"text":"執行的範例就好原因是因為說如果我們這樣寫下去的話就會變成各管理機關可能都覺得擬定這個計畫是文化部的責任那事實上那個範圍的大小跟他要執行的範圍恐怕不是文化部單一可以去執行的"},{"start":13249.634,"end":13267.983,"text":"那至於說可以去委辦地方自治團體或者委託這個是當然的本來他們就可以委託其實即使沒有這個文字本來就活化保存幾乎也都是透過很多只要他如果真的要營運的話幾乎都是要透過委託來進行的那另外就是因為如果我們明顯在這裡就會變成說我們會出現一批中間團體"},{"start":13271.024,"end":13282.901,"text":"那我們覺得其實沒有這個必要 因為本來現在就有關係的民間團體是適合做這件事的不用再出現一個中間團體的代理 這樣會多了一關那第二就是在 已經委員提到就是"},{"start":13284.504,"end":13311.67,"text":"並因著於獎勵或補助我們還是建議不要這樣寫為什麼是因為這樣寫的原因這樣寫的狀況就是他只要提我就非得補不可就是我沒有不補他的空間就是我著於我只能說補多補少但我不能不補所以那我們本來寫的就是本來我們就要得提供獎勵或補助那基本上會有一個判準所以我們會建議保留這個判準讓我們可以來做一些確認它是不是適合這個"},{"start":13312.87,"end":13318.825,"text":"而不移植的狀態的條件然後第三個就是在對第五項第六項的部分"},{"start":13320.1,"end":13348.768,"text":"第五項跟雅琳委員提的是類似的就是都希望說我們可以主動協助那我在這裡一樣就是我希望說那個主動協助指的是我們提供諮詢或者是範例那不要直接寫說是我們協助擬定因為這個狀況真的很容易變成都是我們在擬定那這個我們其實對在地的這個條件不理解的話或者是這個研究不完整的話其實那個任務會沒有辦法擴散反而是更集中向文化部那量能上會受到比較大的影響"},{"start":13349.608,"end":13368.903,"text":"那另外對於行政的訴訟就剛剛已經有做過說明不過在這一題上請大家稍微看一下第九條的法文第九條法文在私有的部分它的條件限制非常嚴格它要考量公益性、必要性而且是尊重現況土地進入所有全人意願而且是對財產權侵害最小的原則"},{"start":13369.443,"end":13386.253,"text":"所以他鎖定的條件強度非常的高那如果在這些條件下還有行政訴訟的話在這裡的法文脈絡下好像是變成保存活化計畫如果我們要求他修正或否定他的保存活化計畫他也可以提起行政訴訟那這樣的危機就會有點大就變成是說他如果說主管機關認為這保存活化計畫"},{"start":13391.556,"end":13408.352,"text":"不qualify那他還可以提起行政訴訟說不行我就一定要這樣那這個恐怕會造成在管理權上面的一個混亂所以這個部分我們導致建請可以不用再把行政法的行政訴訟放在這裡因為他本來就是他人民應有的權利以上"},{"start":13412.043,"end":13432.377,"text":"好 謝謝張雅玲委員跟林英杰委員對於剛剛文化部的說明有沒有要回應的我想因為在這個剛剛諮詢的部分感謝文化部接受不過我覺得後面這一段我不堅持但是我還是希望可以去強調一個概念就是說如何讓第三方的公民團體可以一起來監督"},{"start":13433.738,"end":13452.08,"text":"因為事實上現在的確是稍微整個時程上面行政流程上面大家態度上面都會有一點點推脫跟怠惰啦所以我們還是希望說有一個第三方的單位可以進來讓公民團體可以持續的來監督所以這部分看要怎麼樣的去做調整"},{"start":13454.673,"end":13477.458,"text":"我的建議是我們是不是可以在立法說明裡面加入第三方團體那我也建議把那個監督改成參與可以嗎因為對於民間團體來說我們比較希望的是我們成為夥伴關係一起做那有他們的參與不管是任何形式的參與我想都是可以的那如果直接用監督的話會形成一個直接就是對立的關係那也會造成管轄權上面的一些混淆以上"},{"start":13479.653,"end":13499.313,"text":"就是加在立法說明的意思那所以就是張雅玲委員那個部分就第三方文化部建議加在立法說明當中這樣是否我再想一下好不好你再想一下沒關係那那個林益菁委員針對剛剛文化部的說明就是那個訴訟的部分還有那個要不要鼓勵獎勵私有財產的人的部分"},{"start":13504.482,"end":13516.433,"text":"他尊重那高精順美委員我再有不同的意見就是針對那個日製日本接收日本財產的部分你還是堅持嘛對不對那因為張阿玲委員要想一下那我想我們就"},{"start":13518.171,"end":13539.321,"text":"好 等一下再回來好 那反正我們第九條也就是先保留啦 好不好好 那對我保留那我們很清楚就是張阿玲委員那個部分第三方的部分還有那個高新樹委員那個私人不亦以止為接收之日本財產者就是那其他的部分就是大家都同意文化部的版本我們這樣清楚一點 好"},{"start":13539.941,"end":13565.682,"text":"那我們現在有一條第11條是張雅玲委員的版本是插在這中間的請大家看一下那張雅玲委員要不要說明好我來說明一下就是說在這一個版本裡面呢我們是在因為這條我們是在談公司有不義一直保存活化和教育推廣計畫的公開補助執行等等的辦法授權主管機關可以來去決定嘛"},{"start":13567.375,"end":13571.525,"text":"那第十條怎麼好像…原本不是有第十條嗎?"},{"start":13573.035,"end":13597.087,"text":"第十條怎麼不見了你的第十條剛剛併在前面喔因為我以為抱歉我以為你沒有特別要發言抱歉抱歉因為剛剛我有宣告你的是九跟十在前面我剛剛沒有聽到併在第十條了好那第十一條來那第十一條就是說最主要是參考了文資法第32條是指說我們私有的文化資產在所有權轉讓前要先通知主管機關啦而除了繼承之外政府可以以相同的條件優先購買"},{"start":13598.268,"end":13613.19,"text":"不移植因為它現在的一些現存和保存條件其實和文化資產不太一樣所以才需要訂特別的一個條例但是不移植和文化資產也有一些狀況是很類似的就是有很多所有權是在私人手上就例如是台中的和平這個"},{"start":13620.213,"end":13635.297,"text":"這部分我不建議採取徵收的手段而是採取文化資產的優先承購權的一個概念只有當所有權是以繼承方式以外進行轉移的時候政府才可以優先承購那當然這一條也是給予主管機關彈性"},{"start":13637.037,"end":13651.218,"text":"因為是用得而不是用因決定權還是在主管機關手上如果主管機關評估不應成構也不一定要發動這一條只是當私有的不移植要被買賣的時候呢讓主管機關有一個法源可以來行動"},{"start":13652.648,"end":13667.815,"text":"所以這一條的原意呢重點就是在於尊重私有的財產權跟保存不義遺址之間試圖找到一個平衡點讓政府有工具可以來去保護不義遺址同時也尊重了所有權者的產權"},{"start":13670.049,"end":13684.425,"text":"那個第十一條這個部分因為文化部版本沒有你們要不要回應一下能不能接受張雅玲委員這個建議加入這個跟委員說明這個我知道委員在這個版本是利益良善是為了要怕這個不一致受到受到遺忘但"},{"start":13685.786,"end":13712.681,"text":"我要誠實的說其實有這個法條我們恐怕也很難執行因為當這個德醫同樣條件購買其實我們在文資法裡面有類似的情況其實你是沒有預算購買因為民間開出來的這個以市價開出來的條件你說要編列預算書把它優先購買幾乎是很難達到所以可以請我一點考量就是說一定要放當然就放了但它恐怕很難執行那也會變成有一個狀況是說大家都會覺得說那是不是這一類的"},{"start":13713.641,"end":13739.906,"text":"文資或者是不義遺址都要由政府主管機關來購買恐怕會形成財政上比較大的對立以上說明所以聽起來文化部是說其實精神上你們支持只是你們擔心那個放了之後實質上沒有購買那可是它這個是說得嘛對不對所以文化部如果接受的話那這條大家沒有異議的話也許我們這條就通過了好 大家都同意嗎"},{"start":13741.42,"end":13760.92,"text":"我們就多通過一條等一下 我知道雅玲莉主席不好意思我可以發言一下嗎我知道雅玲莉良好啦可是我要說過去在處理很多文資case的時候困境真的就是她用德這個字她還是可以一直罵行政機關喔所以次長你自己說好的喔"},{"start":13761.994,"end":13779.02,"text":"妳確定妳要說好喔沒有沒有要說好我是希望委員想一下因為我們過往在民間做類似的工作我可以理解但我只是要跟妳說次長妳真的有確定妳要說好喔妳剛剛說好因為我剛剛昭偉已經說就通過我沒有我們也是要保持一個彈性嘛對啊讓妳有個工具可以去使用妳也可以選擇不用使用嘛"},{"start":13780.061,"end":13798.261,"text":"這個會跟現在文資的狀況很相同就行為人考慮的是說他其實是會強化民間跟主管機關的衝突因為民間就認為說有這條法條順你應該買啊可是他不能理解說如果以這個標準那我們所有提出來幾乎都要買那以公務預算來說不太可能去購買私人"},{"start":13799.229,"end":13815.299,"text":"沒有 我只是跟委員說如果列了這一條我們事實上是做不到但是它會強化民間跟政府的衝突因為它會認為你可以做但你不做但事實上我們其實就做不到那我們是不是要把一個做不到的事情放在法案裡面要懇求委員是不是可以"},{"start":13816.48,"end":13835.261,"text":"不用這樣子但是在我們現在的文資法也是有一樣的條例嗎類似的條例對嗎對第一個是文資法當然也因為這樣有多了很多衝突那第二我覺得還是要強調一下文資法它畢竟是以有形的文化資產作為保存的標的可是不以一止始終並不是以有形的文化資產保存為目標"},{"start":13836.863,"end":13853.257,"text":"如果它具有文化資產的價值它就會進入文資法在這裡不一一指一直強調的都是歷史記憶的重建跟反省跟永不再犯跟教育推廣這個性質所以為什麼我們不會把有形的文化資產作為保存標的原因是在這裡"},{"start":13854.648,"end":13879.974,"text":"所以還是希望委員可以支持我們好沒關係這個我再想一下好不好那我們這個就先保留讓那個張林委員再想一下大家也有空間再思考好那我們現在進入第10條第10條有陳秀寶委員的修正動議跟林建啟委員的修正動議那其他人的版本都在這第10條是關於那個不移植整體的那個公告以樹立標誌等等請大家自己看一下哪位委員要發言"},{"start":13881.394,"end":13885.28,"text":"那個秀寶委員跟倩琦委員有沒有要發言好 郭玉琴委員先發言"},{"start":13893.956,"end":13922.671,"text":"好 這個第十條的部分就是明定將設置這個歷史標誌侵害人權的事件解說然後配合這個數位的虛擬重建等等那我想國家人權管提供不易移植的線上3D環境的一個導覽但事實上這個在地方政府的一個配合度好像也會直接影響到這個工作上的一個成效所以在質詢的時候其實文化部也表示過這個涉及地方權責的一個部分要用個案協調的方式來做處理"},{"start":13923.491,"end":13952.575,"text":"這部分是也一定要如實的執行好 以上好 那再來是陳秀寶委員謝謝主席在第十條的部分是關於不義遺址的修復方式那這個部分呢我在這個法條的後面我是參佐文資法第24條我們將不義遺址的保存活化在必要的時候的採用現代科技與工法但一定要以維持不義遺址的原貌為主"},{"start":13953.215,"end":13977.414,"text":"那歷史價值跟轉型正義這個原則也要保持住所以我在後面增加的文字是在原句的後面增加是必要時得採用現代科技與工法以增加其抗政防災防潮防住等機能及存續年限但應維持其歷史價值與轉型正義意義以上"},{"start":13980.334,"end":13983.777,"text":"謝謝陳秀寶委員那有沒有其他那個張雅琳委員"},{"start":13985.731,"end":14012.95,"text":"那这一条呢我的版本和行政部门的差异是我参考了文字法的第24条第二项让修复时的时候呢可以去采取现代的科技和工法但同时维持不易移植的历史价值那参考这个文字法当时的修法理由是说修法修复文化资产应该要尊重维持原有的形貌并且采取适当的工法修复我认为在不易移植的修复上确实也需要这样子的规划"},{"start":14013.67,"end":14030.811,"text":"去活化我們的不遺址但我想因為剛剛之前其實也有討論就是說我是擔心說有人會以活化之名將不遺址修整成完全不符合原本的歷史的樣貌所以才會增加最後一行的一個條文"},{"start":14032.213,"end":14048.075,"text":"我覺得最後一行的條文我是不堅持我是不堅持啦主要是做個說明 謝謝好 謝謝張雅玲委員那如果沒有別的委員號那這條我也有版本那我的版本其實就是跟張雅玲委員一樣我們是參考文資法就是除了原本說的以樹立歷史標誌"},{"start":14049.537,"end":14070.174,"text":"解說數位虛擬重建等等辦理歷史事件紀念儀式或活動等方式為原則外那其他我們在修復的部分是希望說能夠得採用現代科技與工法以增加其抗震防災防潮防築等機能及存續年限但因維持其歷史價值跟轉型正義意義"},{"start":14071.054,"end":14092.729,"text":"但是後來我去跟文化部請教了解到其實就像剛剛次長說的它還是跟文資不太一樣因為比較不是在強調實體建築的部分而且本來工法上就沒有需要用傳統工法的問題所以其實我就不堅持可以以文化部的版本通過"},{"start":14093.53,"end":14111.308,"text":"好 那這部分沒有委員們要發言的話就請林倩記委很抱歉好 謝謝昭緯那這一條其實還是在這個基礎的定義上會影響到後面其實這個公法技術我們想為了不管是有刑或無刑假設這個部分確定的話那"},{"start":14112.089,"end":14140.907,"text":"當然現在的公法應該都對於我們保存跟整體的歷史記憶都是正面的一個的發展但是最重要的是那還是在這個基礎的界定上它其實是可以有後面有關於有形跟無形上的一些不同的這個定義所以這個部分我還是建議保留好 那文化部先說明之後我們再處理那個要不要保留的事情"},{"start":14142.568,"end":14167.102,"text":"好 謝謝委員其實這個案子包括范議員 郭育群委員 曾雅琳委員陳秀寶委員的提案的說明都是在針對公法的部分做了一個強調那就像剛剛范議員的說明一樣其實本法並沒有規範它的公法的方式就是並沒有說它不可以用現代科技它跟文資它需要使用所謂的古蹟修復或者歷史建物的修復方式並不相同所以其實"},{"start":14168.523,"end":14187.825,"text":"原則上不太需要規範說他需要他可以採取什麼工法因為原本就不禁止他採取任何的工法那大家可以看在第十條裡面我們的範圍是比較大的第一個是他是優先評估適度的實體修復或重建也就是說修復成原貌或者是重建是他第一個"},{"start":14188.706,"end":14212.362,"text":"考量但是如果沒有辦法做到的話那也因應因為現在的不移植很大多數都已經是已購或者是根本沒有建物地表上已經是消失的狀態所以它會有這些梳理活動啊虛擬重建啊或者是用開放譬如像定期開放有些譬如它是在國防的安全的範圍裡面我們仍然要求它定期或者依照申請開放那為什麼有些是歷史事件的"},{"start":14212.922,"end":14235.316,"text":"這些紀念儀式或活動那因為考量到有些原住民的場所它並沒有硬體建物但是它有紀念儀式大家是有這類的顧慮所以我們的建議是說在公法的這一部分其實應該是可以不用再列但委員如果特別擔心說它在修復之後是不是能維持它的這個歷史價值跟轉型陣營的意義的話這一句話倒是可以加入我們沒有意見"},{"start":14237.185,"end":14259.668,"text":"好 那所以你是說哪一句話可以加入不好意思大家的最後一句話維持其歷史價值與轉型正義好啊 那這部分文化部接受大家的建議就是把最後這個文字加入請記錄一下那其他的部分但是剛剛那個林倩琦委員還是希望保留我們就是還是一樣是不亦已止的那個歷史時期定義的部分不同"},{"start":14260.228,"end":14279.364,"text":"那除了這個之外大家文字上有就是接受文化部的版本但是增加最後委員們都有的那句話好 那我們第10條就這樣保留好 那我們現在進入第11條第11條只有林建琦委員有修正動議那其他委員的版本已經整理了那高金素美委員請發言"},{"start":14282.006,"end":14307.722,"text":"好 謝謝大家這個部分我在第二項裡面是涉及西元1895年日據時代的相關事項應該優先獎勵或補助為什麼會這樣呢?是因為我剛剛講到了那麼多的歷史留下了非常多的不易的足跡其實這一段時間長期以來其實它是記錄了原住民族受壓迫的歷史可是因為時代久遠"},{"start":14308.743,"end":14325.068,"text":"然後長期以來我們的政府並沒有明確的保護或者是推廣的策略所以這些遺址可能因為缺乏關照而逐漸消失了這也是事實所以為了要保存這些具歷史意義的遺址我們應該列為優先獎勵或輔助的範圍"},{"start":14330.069,"end":14356.801,"text":"然後我們政府應該要提供資源來支持相關的研究保護跟教育推廣的工作來確保我們這一段歷史可以被完整的保存並傳承為什麼會特別提到應該要優先來原住民的1895年的原因我相信這個文哲菌應該很清楚知道我們原住民的歷史保存其實也很少"},{"start":14358.281,"end":14365.129,"text":"數件已經很少不要說這些不義遺址所以我們希望對於原住民的1895年這些相關的不義遺址能夠來優先處理以上 謝謝"},{"start":14372.858,"end":14400.123,"text":"因為我看別的委員的第十一條條文都跟院版一樣那文化部針對剛剛高精素美委員的這個有沒有要回應因為如果沒有要回應的話那我們就很明確就是要保留那保留原因就是說就是前項就要不要加入陳上涉及西元1895年日據時代之相關事項應優先獎勵或補助 好不好這樣我們就知道保留原因了那第十條保留那我們現在進入第"},{"start":14402.308,"end":14424.306,"text":"講錯了 11條保留那我們現在進入第12條第12條也 哪位委員要發言有一樣是林倩琦委員有那個修正動議所以是不是高金淑美委員要不要有要說明嗎這個我就不要說明因為我的修正動議第12條跟行政院的版本條文是一樣的那我們是不是就依第12條"},{"start":14428.177,"end":14442.778,"text":"是因為後面有不一指四個字是不是是好 那第十二條大家都跟行言版本一樣那現在就是不一指這四個字有不同的見解那我們十二條因為這樣保留好 那我們現在進入第十三條第十三條"},{"start":14445.783,"end":14473.439,"text":"有一樣是林倩琦委員有一個修正動議那跟剛剛一樣嗎對就是在第二項裡面是1895年日據時代的潛在不義遺址應該依照本條例的規定優先審議是一樣的好那第13條其他委員的版本都跟文化部的一樣那就是我們因為最後要不要加西元1895年日據時代之潛在不義遺址應優先審議這些文字那我們第13條因此保留好"},{"start":14474.099,"end":14501.839,"text":"那我們現在進入第14條第14條有林益菁委員不是 講錯了陳秀寶委員有修正動議還有林倩琦委員還有張雅琳委員先發言再來高金素明委員還有秀寶委員好 這一條是在討論不義指責修護管理責任歸屬那這邊我也是參考了文資法新政的第2、3、5項分別是主管機關應定期巡查主管機關可以令不義以指所有機關"},{"start":14504.301,"end":14520.763,"text":"對他們來針對要求他們做這個不易移植進行收復還有緊急收復的一個相關規範因為我認為我們還是要原本的版本裡面只有採取必要維護措施但我覺得我們應該要有更積極的一個行動跟要求謝謝"},{"start":14523.78,"end":14546.98,"text":"好 謝謝再來是高金素美委員第二陳秀寶委員謝謝第14條是講說這個管理機關或者是機構或者是所有人要善盡管理維護的責任同樣的在14條裡面我一樣是要把私人接收至日本財產者也是要放在裡頭所以我的文字是有這幾個跟大家不一樣的也像 謝謝好 謝謝那陳秀寶委員"},{"start":14550.154,"end":14572.924,"text":"現在就寫第14條的部分是關於不預止受破壞之必要處理方式那我這邊有提案就是要增訂第三項的部分其實也是參考文資法的部分在不預止因重大災害有辦理緊急修復必要的時候管理機關所有人所有人使用人或是管理應該在30日以內提報搶修計畫6個月以內提出修復計畫並因"},{"start":14577.766,"end":14600.727,"text":"經主管機關核准後使得為之來因應不抑制有重大的災害必要及時強修的這個情況那我這邊增加的文字是不抑制是原件物或遺構因重大災害有辦理緊急修復之必要者其管理機關機構所有人使用人或管理人因於在後30日內"},{"start":14602.008,"end":14620.875,"text":"提报抢修计划并于在后6个月内提出修复计划均以主管机关核准后为之因为这个提这样的文字增修是因为考量到安全的维护因为这个博弈椅子选定之后呢其实也会有我们"},{"start":14621.055,"end":14633.684,"text":"一般的民眾會過去那如果說它有這個災後的受損的狀況我沒有及時的去修復它在對於說使用上這個安全的疑慮會比較高所以我增訂了這樣的文字以上"},{"start":14634.775,"end":14656.385,"text":"好 謝謝秀寶委員那第14條沒有別的委員要發言了那是不是文化部這裡回應一下就是剛剛秀寶委員的那個修正動議針對這個其實也跟秀寶委員說明我們的理由大概跟之前相同這個部分大概就是針對以文資的方法來規範做緊急修復那因為我們原先的判斷是在"},{"start":14657.225,"end":14685.318,"text":"不易移植的部分比較不會有這一類的所謂的緊急狀況但如果要列入也沒有關係啦我們還是可以依照這個緊急修復的狀況來做當然它跟文資是不一樣的我是說它參考文資的這個規範但是你要是說有緊急的災害它導致說它有一些損害可能會有一些安全上的疑慮還是要處理啊對就是因為沒關係因為它大概就會有所謂公有私有公有的部分它就有修復跟維護的義務啦那大概在私有的部分就會又面臨到說"},{"start":14686.52,"end":14691.257,"text":"當事人的意願跟對他財產的影響如何但我想列在這邊也沒有太大的問題"},{"start":14693.183,"end":14716.263,"text":"所以那個文化部可以接受是不是對 就是修復的部分我們可以那修復部分就陳秀寶委員的那個文字納入那如果沒有其他意見的話因為高精素美委員剛剛我那邊還有增加了文資法的那個235項這個部分的話是不是也可以來回覆一下 謝謝張雅琳委員的版本是不是也請文化部這邊回應一下"},{"start":14717.917,"end":14745.893,"text":"還是跟委員說因為委員的版本裡面是主管機關淨為管理維護修復會變成那大家就不要管理維護就好啦因為文化部就都會淨為管理維護所以我們比較建議可以不要這樣規範因為這樣子有點是有點是負面的卸除了管理機關的責任但是前面的文字所以前面的文字是可以但是只是希望不要把所有的權責都掛在主管機關上面對嗎"},{"start":14748.075,"end":14771.017,"text":"對就是後面的這一塊就是主管機關得通知但是沒有得通知管理機關或所有人借其改限其改善我們本來就這個部分就會其實這個我們我們在後面因為有刑責有罰則就是管理機關如果有不作為的情況我們是會處罰他的所以這本來我們就可以所以這部分的文字是可以後面不要敬畏改對這部分這樣是是是"},{"start":14771.758,"end":14783.894,"text":"因為定期巡查跟審議我們本來也都是會做的關於那第三項的部分就是說就是跟秀巴文人的類似我們把文字調整一下就可以原則上就是緊急修復的狀況"},{"start":14785.71,"end":14814.215,"text":"那我的版本其實跟張雅玲跟秀寶委員都一樣精神一樣文字我還沒有時間check那都是文資法那部分那就很高興文化部會接受緊急修復的部分抱歉那我再確認一下就是於策定重大營建工程計畫前來通知我們召開審議會協調這個部分呢這個部分您的想法是跟委員報告因為我們本來的文字就有啦就是重大營建工程計畫前通知主管機關這個我們本來就有"},{"start":14819.066,"end":14827.618,"text":"所以這個第14條的部分高經事務委員是不是有文字"},{"start":14829.093,"end":14848.335,"text":"等一下那我想很高興就是文化部有接受一部分就是我們先以秀寶委員那個部分的部分文字那另外就是高金素美委員那邊有是私人接收是日本財產者跟剛剛我念一下就是要增加那個在中間多一句就是"},{"start":14850.498,"end":14865.298,"text":"是属公有或私人接收之日本财产者是的那我们因为这个部分大家不同的意见那我们保留其他的部分很高兴大家有共识然后文化部有接受那个部分陈秀宝委员的文字"},{"start":14865.538,"end":14882.516,"text":"好 還有一個部分是他剛剛有提到就是經主管機關查認因管理不當之不義以止及潛在不渝止有蔑視或減損價值之餘者主管機關得通知管理機構或所有人限期改善這個部分其實也是可以融入在現有的文字上面去強化這個精神對 這個部分"},{"start":14883.717,"end":14909.887,"text":"我們剛剛有說我們可以容慮我們只有最後那一段就是敬委管理維護那部分的刪除好 那這部分就張雅玲委員也有我的跟她一樣我們就是參考文字法的好 那就請文化部去處理文字的部分那我們現在進入就是只有那個林怡瑾跟郭育群委員的15條請大家看一下這個整理的大本在第24頁跟25頁的部分那林怡瑾委員要先發言"},{"start":14914.476,"end":14914.7,"text":"地鼠"},{"start":14916.699,"end":14943.915,"text":"第15條我是新增的啦因為我的16條跟原版的15條是一致的那等於是可是我現在有個修正動議有改一些我原本15條的文字我原本是寫直轄市縣主管機關依本法應作為而不作為怎樣怎樣怎樣可是我現在修正動議是"},{"start":14945.336,"end":14949.767,"text":"改成公有不易以止及潛在不易止之管理機關"},{"start":14951.107,"end":14979.417,"text":"或購 括號或購依本法應作為而不作為那為什麼改這樣 基本上當然就是說因為現在我們舉例來講像說國防部跟法務部它就表明了不願配合 很明顯是這樣那國防部的理由是說不便開放參反及什麼設置告示牌那法務部的理由是已無遺構的存在那可是我們不以此的標示"},{"start":14980.799,"end":14987.928,"text":"根本無關有沒有移購或能不能開放參觀的問題那所以其實這兩個機關這兩個單位他們管轄的場域他們其實都是這樣的一個說法所以我覺得是不是就法令上去規範他們"},{"start":14999.281,"end":15019.273,"text":"如果說因作為而不作為致危害不易移植保存時得由行政院中央主管機關命期一定時間內為之如果多增加了這些可能也會讓文化部在做事情的時候比較好做不然有些部會確實他們對於不移植的想法或者他們的態度不能"},{"start":15028.138,"end":15045.026,"text":"太消極了 所以我覺得這個部分那也是希望參照文資法第110條的規定就讓主管 中央主管機關或行政院能夠代行處理不移植保存或活化的規定那這個我想這個請大家參考一下"},{"start":15045.836,"end":15060.782,"text":"好 那個林益謹委員有個修正動議要他把他的原來的第15條的直轄市縣主管機關改成公有不義遺址及潛在不義執管的機關好 那個郭益謹委員你跟林益謹是一樣 請發言下一個是那個柯真委員"},{"start":15061.542,"end":15085.98,"text":"好 這一條其實我們也是參照這個文子保存法的第111條跟地方制度法的這個76條第一項的一個規定啦只是說新增條文規定就是如果地方主管機關應作為而不作為的時候中央主管機關的代行處理那這個部分其實有特別講到是情況急迫的一個狀況所以以上跟大家報告"},{"start":15086.42,"end":15105.588,"text":"好謝謝那柯真委員好不好意思因為這個第15條是有關於罰則的部分我還是要強調一下等一下我們現在不是到那個是到林怡瑾跟郭育群的第15條好那我是本文第15條那你等一下那這個部分是不是請文化部回應一下"},{"start":15106.596,"end":15123.065,"text":"好 謝謝委員關心這一條應該委員的用意是在說萬一遇到因作為而不作為的主管機關那我們的建議是這樣因為因作為而不作為的本來在行政執行法裡面就有罰則就是說它不作為的話主管機關是可以罰他30萬到5000萬的"},{"start":15125.026,"end":15149.74,"text":"代金而且就是他不作為甚至是可以重複裁罰所以我們的建議是說是不是在這一條加上的就是說如果這個主管機關不作為的話就依照行政執行法來予以裁罰因為第一個就是說代行這個部分可能沒有辦法在法條裡面訂定因為代行是地方自治法裡面的一個專有名詞就是說代行要有代行的條件所以他可能"},{"start":15150.34,"end":15169.905,"text":"不建議是直接代刑但是我們建立法則可不可以建立一個共識就是說如果他有應作為不作為的機關的時候不管他是中央主管機關或地方主管機關管理機關那我們都可以用刑政裁罰的方式要求他執行並且懲罰他的代金"},{"start":15172.352,"end":15187.962,"text":"是不是可以這樣文化部是希望最後那個屆時仍不作為者依什麼行政執行法第35條行政執行法第35條有一個他可以懲罰他30到5000萬元的代金而且要求他執行"},{"start":15189.053,"end":15202.444,"text":"好 那郭玉琴委員跟帶多的帶 帶多的帶可是文資法第110條確實是規定可以帶行那是因為它是地方政府 它是地方自治法對 但是這裡我們並沒有這一類的關卡關係可是如果說我們"},{"start":15207.228,"end":15226.327,"text":"直接寫就是公有不一一止的這些管理機關那你的意思說跟他們的管理機關有可能是法務部那你跟他們是沒有直接的管理關係你的意思是這樣因為地方自治對於代行是有定義的就是你要有這樣的權責代行一定是中央對地方對"},{"start":15227.608,"end":15251.477,"text":"所以文資是中央對地方是有代行它是針對地方政府而且這裡是這樣我們還是比較不主張用代行來做因為代行很可能就是卸除了原管理機關的責任因為他就覺得說那就給你代行就好我就不要做所以我們的建議是有懲處的罰則就變成是有罰則他一定要做你改成 沒有"},{"start":15253.168,"end":15270.716,"text":"文字我們可以再提供那聽起來就是說這個新增以景跟育行委員的第15條文化部可以接受但是文字上得代行處理的話文化部會再修正文字好不好那這個我們也先保留但大家知道精神上接受等到那個文字確定之後是OK的"},{"start":15272.537,"end":15283.994,"text":"好 那我們就進入到很重要的罰則因為沒有罰則的話就第15條 大家的第15條柯政委員要發言林議警跟林倩琪都有修正動議"},{"start":15288.783,"end":15317.821,"text":"好我们就是讨论第15条罚则的部分我还是要特别请教一下利用这今天请教一下这空总军事法庭还有康处所是促转会公告的不亦已止就文化部自己把其中一栋给拆了而且在去年使者任内为什么基于什么理由若该罚谁我不晓得这个本法如果没有说及既往的话那文化部为什么要自己拆那我想文化部应该是应该自己先罚2000万然后把原来的部分把它弄回来这个部分请解释一下好不好"},{"start":15318.661,"end":15341.745,"text":"而且呢有关于你们这个标识牌的费用啊我还是要特别利用这机会讲一下为什么不公开招标而且呢你看一个标识牌要花多少钱谭南市做一块是八万块行政院做三块却要七十万然后呢同样一家公司然后呢不同的不同的标价然后呢这难道是有特殊的工法吗我觉得利用这个机会再谈到筏子的部分我请文化部给一个交代好不好"},{"start":15342.205,"end":15358.811,"text":"然后到底这个有没有特殊的技术有没有不涉及专利为什么价格会这样背离行情那为什么不能公开招标我觉得这是在讨论罚则的部分里面应该一并来做说明特别是对于空种已经被认定是不易移植的部分为什么文化不要拆"},{"start":15360.393,"end":15382.679,"text":"那第15條院版15條罰則的部分有沒有其他委員要翻譯我看大家都好像都一樣那是不是就請文化部針對剛剛柯之恩委員的疑問第一個空總的部分的那個所謂不一己的拆除我們是不是可以由李政策來做說明然後第二就是對於罰則的部分法務部也有意見可能也要請法務部表示意見"},{"start":15383.951,"end":15405.733,"text":"然後最後我回答的是標示牌的部分標示牌的部分基本上是由管理機關來執行那管理機關他要用什麼方式執行我們基本上只有輔導我們沒有要求但是他的金額會決定他是不是必須採用公開照表那所以這個可能管理機關如果是行政院的話應該是人轉人權處吧"},{"start":15409.947,"end":15429.141,"text":"跟柯委員報告一下空總的部分被列為不易移植的是在舊辦公樓舊辦公大樓的部分我們在去年所拆除的是沒有文資身份也沒有不易移植身份的新辦公大樓這個部分要拆除因為它跟舊辦公大樓"},{"start":15432.385,"end":15455.655,"text":"前面紅色右手邊的那個就是舊辦公大樓那後面的這個是新辦公大樓雖然新辦公大樓沒有文資身份可是它因為跟舊辦公大樓非常的靠近所以要拆除新辦公大樓我們依然有通過台北市文化局文資審議委員會的委員到場去現刊同意我們做拆除"},{"start":15456.255,"end":15470.602,"text":"整個程序都是按照那個行政的相關規定去進行的跟委員說明那個是不是要請剛剛有問題要請人權及轉型正義處處長賴處長回應然後等下法務部請回應那個罰則的部分"},{"start":15482.672,"end":15489.809,"text":"市長 剛剛是說招標的部分嗎剛剛是說有那個標示牌招標啊 價格啊 就是說多少錢啊"},{"start":15492.113,"end":15515.397,"text":"那這樣子法務部先回應那個罰則的部分你們有沒有意見第15條罰則跟委員們報告15條的罰則這一部分我們看那個構成要件是有幾個問題第一個就是因為這個條文的訂定目的應該一直是在避免不義遺址或者是遺構遭受不到的破壞公有不義遺址而已公有不義遺址那這有"},{"start":15516.878,"end":15538.574,"text":"幾個問題 第一個就是私有不義遺址的保護排除在這個地方當然是尊重私人財產的意願但是這個是為了保管保護保管維護墓地的刑法手段有需要把它排除嗎因為我們的想法是假設這個私有遺址一夠私有財產權他想把它督根變成蓋大樓那這樣的話"},{"start":15540.475,"end":15564.913,"text":"一定得破壞這樣的一個遺構或私有遺址那這樣的話我們政府機關的立場所以你已經在實質上要大家把私有放進來我們現在是問你針對公有的這個罰則是不是OK公有的罰則沒有問題但是就是那個五十萬以上跟兩千萬這個級距是有一點寬啦就是太級距很大因為通常我們那個那你們建議是怎麼樣"},{"start":15566.334,"end":15589.634,"text":"五倍 通常是五倍但是當然也有看情況 個案的狀況不同的具體情況差很大的也是有也是過去曾有這樣的例子也是有這個例子對好那我想因為我們每個委員的版本都是五十萬到兩千萬那當然就是說法務部也提供意見就是比較少但是也有這樣的例子"},{"start":15590.274,"end":15611.295,"text":"那我想如果沒有特別的意見的話我想私有那個我們應該沒有人要放進來嘛因為沒有人有這個版本那我們是不是第15條就基本上就是以那個文化部的版本通過那當然不易移植的那個15條還是那個不易移植的部分對 不易移植我們保留但是我們文字的部分大家都接受了發責內容好不好我剛剛講很清楚"},{"start":15613.737,"end":15629.184,"text":"好那第15條一直保留但保留的原因就是因為那四個字啦不移植的那個名詞這整個整個概念我想確認一下15條裡面剛剛有講到帶墮的部分是不是也要把它也會把它納入修正的文字裡面增列嗎已經增列了"},{"start":15630.069,"end":15634.033,"text":"那個是在林議警的第15條我們現在講的是院版15條那個部分是議警跟疫情委員的15條那我現在講的15條是罰則的院版15條那我們進入那個第16條很簡單只有那個林倩琪委員有修正動議委員"},{"start":15651.149,"end":15675.284,"text":"有關那個私有的移購這個部分因為那個條文文字看起來不是很明確因為第幾條就是15條罰則的部分第15條我們沒有私有啊我們全部都在公有啊因為我們那個公有不易移植後面加個移購所以這完全是指公有移購不含那個私有移購嗎對啊它是公有不易移植原件或移購那個移購是包含公有跟私有"},{"start":15676.204,"end":15700.041,"text":"我們剛剛都在講公有那這樣的話可能需要在那個說明裡面要說明清楚說明他們在講清楚我們都懂說這是講公有好那個沒關係吼那是第16條吼那個有沒有人要發言沒有的話第16條是不是就照行政院版本通過文化部的因為這個很簡單啦完全沒有剛好沒有不義者這幾個字"},{"start":15701.325,"end":15724.938,"text":"好 那現在我們處理附帶決議 請宣讀介於台灣威權統治時期 人權破壞事件層出不窮除了關押秘密審訊與處決場所已納入不予以致保存條例保存與紀念 人若諸如逮捕場所遭約彈處 受害者故居等處"},{"start":15726.059,"end":15748.609,"text":"具有歷史保存意義及教育價值,對此,台南市政府文化局即出版《台南人權歷史常識》系列重書,詳實記載威權統治時期大台南地區曾發生之人權破壞事件及其相關場所之歷史故事,為前接地點,應不符無意以指保存條例中人權侵害處所之定義,"},{"start":15749.569,"end":15771.893,"text":"意味必符合文資法紀念建築或歷史建築的資格建請文化部參考台南人權歷史長址系列重書盤點全台例如重書中之長址進而規劃如何紀念與保存並於114年5月前已書面回覆前述規劃或進度提案人林盈瑾 陳培宇 張雅玲 修讀完畢"},{"start":15775.382,"end":15798.499,"text":"好 那文化部是不是回應一下這附帶決議好 那個島嶼第二行那個盤點全台如從事這個我們改成協助相關單位進行紀念與保存然後必於14年5月前提出書面報告這樣子就修正這兩句修正後照案通過 好"},{"start":15800.701,"end":15803.903,"text":"這個附帶決議是很好但是如果能夠接受本席的條文從清朝時期就開始算的話"},{"start":15823.99,"end":15840.317,"text":"這個當然就在那裡面了不用附帶結議了所以這個部分是這樣所以跟會會有相關會有相關然後這裡面也是因為寫不亦以止保存條例因為既然法例名稱也還沒有定所以說一併一併送協商謝謝"},{"start":15844.67,"end":15860.168,"text":"那我想我們這個就是因為名稱的緣故一起保留那其他的內容都已經修正通過這樣OK嗎 我們就一起保留附帶決議因為你剛剛意見也是關於不一致保全條例那個名稱嘛好"},{"start":15862.745,"end":15890.418,"text":"那就一起保留今天的審查結果免於重複宣讀在不影響條文文藝前提下文字條次其標點符號為統一體例授權意識人員修改列入紀錄未予採納條文授權意識人員確認關於今天會議作以下決議對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":15891.178,"end":15906.864,"text":"那不議之保存條例相關草案另定期繼續審查報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位辛苦了就是下次因為保留這麼多我們下次留在委員會裡面再拿出來審查"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}