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謝謝要向各位黨團幹部來報告一下我們有關114年度中央政府總預算案公務部份各黨團的提案在加計各委員會保留453案共計3296案上代寫上"},{"start":1956.111,"end":1973.09,"text":"頭髮要掉光光二本次協商順序為先行討論通案的提案部分再依審查分配表所排定各委員會稅入稅出的部分送院會處理項目之順序討論最後我們再行討論機密預算的部分"},{"start":1973.951,"end":1994.881,"text":"以及協商過的單位沒有未決之提案,我們不再處理現在我們請各黨團幹部表達寶貴意見,請柯總召發言王宏威署長跟黃國昌哪一位第一個齁你稍待一下嘛那請王宏威副總長請準備這有什麼好稍待的院長你"},{"start":1998.7,"end":2026.539,"text":"我第一個發現到,第二個我先問一下,國民黨黨兵沒有來,胡文綺沒有來,這個協商是算談判會還是正式的?有效的?你必須回答這個問題,有沒有效?有效?你們總召不見了?我剛才還在演唱會有效的,而且請柯總召保持微笑我一定微笑,你的眼睛要真的笑"},{"start":2029.259,"end":2048.61,"text":"來第二個,一年來總預算的審查我們都知道,我們把這程序先講清楚剛才院長有談到現在總共保留3996案我不知道這個有沒有包括現在委員會保留的部分還是新送案"},{"start":2052.651,"end":2069.281,"text":"加起來齁動決案算不算?應該有嘛都有嘛有分為動決案有兩種嘛一個書面報告來就可以一個要報告後"},{"start":2070.802,"end":2090.569,"text":"同意,也有的是要專案報告所以不同的類型,將來當然不同的處理方式那過去在這個立法院,坦白講我在這三十幾年總算也全部參加過那我們都知道,專案長在這裡"},{"start":2093.342,"end":2120.538,"text":"大概第一個第一組總統是行政院嘛對不對那行政院在行政院以前會談一個通案性通案性先談也就是說因為我們今天當中總統總統三哨兩千億然後請問我們律師長或是委員會或是院長我們現在在委員會到底三檢有多少"},{"start":2124.813,"end":2135.218,"text":"六七一啦六七一他怎麼分類七一點三七一大市長是什麼六十幾"},{"start":2158.809,"end":2187.023,"text":"廣告部申請多少?也就是說現在委會已經被刪掉了總共六七億那這樣廣告部就四十八億嘛四八部十億是嗎?那個應該很清楚吧四點六億四八部"},{"start":2188.188,"end":2201.337,"text":"要不4.6億4.6億齁那有其他的?財政部你的幕僚要很強,你不是一送我一回"},{"start":2204.716,"end":2223.506,"text":"三兆兩千億現在,大家說要開啟人民荷包,選舉的時候都說要進入政府三點人民荷包那現在總共三點是六七億而已嘛六七億裡面包括國防部四十八億、蘇貿部四點六億、財政部將近十一億這是我們黨團統計出來的"},{"start":2230.839,"end":2249.334,"text":"所以到最後到底要三年多少,每年都是先談,談一個總數為什麼這次TG還來做遮羞?去年三年多少?去年299吧來我看一下"},{"start":2253.311,"end":2259.576,"text":"我們先把這個談清楚,去年299再往前就是300,然後273、256、246等等所以主席總書都有很詳細的資料所以我們現在回來談,歲數升到2"},{"start":2273.854,"end":2301.858,"text":"那刪了就是六、七億嘛那今年是兩千三百我們換句話說這個禮儀這個三百億還有一段距離嘛但是現在總共三千兩百九十六案嘛那這三千兩百九十四案、六案這三年數多少?"},{"start":2303.53,"end":2314.474,"text":"不知道嘛有錢凍的,有剩下一塊錢的,有扛到剩下一塊錢的還有弄組結議的,呼籲條件的都有嘛"},{"start":2321.738,"end":2339.473,"text":"那現在我請教我們院長你應該去統計出來現在總共國民黨是委員會總統委員會保留453案嘛對不對那民進黨提了22案民進黨提了絕對和醫專署沒有關係啦國民黨提了2334案民進黨提了487案"},{"start":2350.355,"end":2353.521,"text":"這個是所謂凍結還是有13的那13有多少13有多少"},{"start":2361.806,"end":2390.215,"text":"我希望你們統計一下好不好好不好我們要一個整體的概念我們要知道這個預算這樣走下去這個picture是怎麼樣因為這每年都是如此而且現在副總召委很清楚我們中午有訓練但是時間很急迫今天禮拜三嘛禮拜四禮拜五那現在禮拜一就結束了二十一號就結束了"},{"start":2394.795,"end":2415.413,"text":"我發言時間是誰在限制的?院長有這個我發言時間有在限制嗎?沒有關係我們要把事情講清楚吧你們只會搞這一套要把事情講清楚嘛,院長你現在像個院長嘛哪有我在講話發言時間可以限制的所以可以限制我發言時間,我不講廢話嘛"},{"start":2421.966,"end":2426.87,"text":"所以我現在問的問題當然是重點嘛好 院長"},{"start":2428.424,"end":2456.151,"text":"就是說我們現在有幾天的時間嘛我們上次曹偉強有講說那個禮拜五還是下禮拜四一次會嘛那今天禮拜三禮拜四就這兩天齁那這個案子有三天多的案子齁那各部會去溝通是有效與否的我相信都沒有效啦齁那兩天時間禮拜五就可以表決齁禮拜一可以表決那大家想一想"},{"start":2457.723,"end":2484.893,"text":"這樣走得下去嗎?走得下去嗎?這是第一點所以副委員所以我說欸我們半個禮拜要加開A會我說欸禮拜六禮拜天是公務員休息你要怎麼叫他來這是一個問題啊意思是說我們今天講的事情就是說要進入很實際的哪一個應該是可以保哪一個非"},{"start":2487.715,"end":2497.024,"text":"會保留不可的大家要想一想那過程以後哪些案子是可以撤改為復來決議改為復來決議歷年都是這樣嘛"},{"start":2502.202,"end":2517.655,"text":"而且那到最後面對這些測案,測案地檢測,那個需要很長的時間而且院長是要終於實施運鏈下去所以那個時間上是要掌握的"},{"start":2518.826,"end":2545.295,"text":"所以這個包括開會時間因為你記得我們上個會期7月16號最後一天的時候我們是弄到晚上12點7月15號學長也是弄到晚上12點所以這個法定的事情要把它完成這有一定的構成和它的工程而且大家要有完全的默契否則的話"},{"start":2547.489,"end":2575.128,"text":"我車一算審查的時候,剛好一天一句話,就把它停起來了上次,上次費榮泰當總召的時候,為華視中總經理一句話就季節協商,人就跑了,沒得協商,停了三天還要一半頭再回來,所以這方面會有很多狀況"},{"start":2576.997,"end":2591.015,"text":"因為在野黨知道執政黨總算是你要的嘛所以他會不斷勒令你 凌遲你讓你逼著我去道歉 等等的都通常都有發生過 這不是大家都很清楚"},{"start":2594.199,"end":2619.586,"text":"那現在很多例子也是剛剛進來這個先是預算規模是完全不一樣而且有中正總預算審查辦法都很清楚的還有一些法律要進行的這部分中平總統最清楚所以今天我們要來講就是說到底我們撐牙只有最後四天嘛"},{"start":2622.242,"end":2628.652,"text":"三四五和一嘛走得完嗎要走得完要用什麼方式來走"},{"start":2631.022,"end":2654.367,"text":"當然至少每天都要看 才會到12點這時間都可以到12點 走得完嗎要算一下 大家要量一下時間 估計的時間那今天到12點 走不完那勢必要面對婦女總總所囤的讓大家禮拜四要來去的假班這大家都要想好"},{"start":2658.277,"end":2677.045,"text":"因為這個是直播,我那種太離譜的說,你這離譜都拔去我不會唱,太假了至少最後遮羞布也要演得像一點,這是我們大家自己都很清楚所以我今天要講的就是說,第一個過去是這樣"},{"start":2679.758,"end":2700.735,"text":"通商的部分、通案的部分為什麼要談通案?談通案的時候哪些委辦費用要通商多少?出口理由會議要刪多少?包括新興建設、新興設備要刪多少?新的工程要刪多少?延續工程當然沒有,新的本年度也要刪多少?"},{"start":2707.768,"end":2720.267,"text":"所以這是一個最主要的key在這裡也就是說要把審查這個有關遊戲規則在這裡先談清楚才走得下去那這個時候就要談一個總數"},{"start":2722.52,"end":2741.892,"text":"我們今年要刪400單元總數然後從這個部分還有裡面裡面當然有這個大包小嘛裡面被刪掉的部分會包進來嘛或是裡面都刪的部分來湊成一個大家認為還好的總數比如說400那700是不能倒出來"},{"start":2747.168,"end":2765.144,"text":"因為也有刪,那現在我們草野鄉要怎麼弄,那把它湊滿400億,這一定要從通案開始談嘛,主要通案就是說,像我一般會用刪多少那都要談嘛,那有沒有排除條款"},{"start":2767.557,"end":2787.199,"text":"比較機敏的機關,他真的已經是連加班費都發不出來的,你是不是要給他排除通商的部分?這一部分我相信韓院長你過去也沒有處理過,因為你過去三屆沒有等過黨兵"},{"start":2788.741,"end":2808.701,"text":"那我應該都在黨邊的時候每年我都坐在這裡在協商所以這邊請韓議長你等一下要適宜一下好不好不然早時候要來大家談一談那當然我們也尊重各黨的意見那接下來我們兩個怎麼發言民眾黨怎麼發言我們都尊重大家再來討論嘛以上"},{"start":2810.587,"end":2838.064,"text":"好 謝謝柯總召 接著請國民黨團請問哪一位發言黃峰威副書記長發言好 請台灣民眾黨團請準備好 謝謝主席那我想剛才柯總召一直提到就是說那我們如果現在按照我們大概三千兩百多個案子那麼處理的時間到底來不來得及那事實上現在我們如果很快速的來進入包含通案的討論"},{"start":2839.845,"end":2865.782,"text":"還有呢各個案的討論如果我們之前其實在星期二的時候就已經說過如果大家沒有辦法達成決議的部分那當然就用意識來處理那否則的話如果我們光是在這邊一直你來我往一來一回其實那更浪費時間而且也容我來做提醒本來呢在星期二我們在那個"},{"start":2867.043,"end":2874.707,"text":"就是主席台後面的這個院長休息室協商的時候本來呢是今天早上我們10點鐘因為院長也很著急就說早上10點鐘就要開始做協商當時也是在柯總召的建議因為你們中午有另外的一個行程嘛"},{"start":2886.192,"end":2890.455,"text":"那所以呢到下午2點再開所以我想柯總召對於這個時間並不像他所說的一樣如果我們現在按照我們原來這個程序去做處理會有來不及的地方我覺得這個必須核心序名"},{"start":2904.406,"end":2918.782,"text":"那另外 那柯總統他也講說這個 他說這個就預算啊 他說在野黨都知道這是執政黨要用的啊那他剛才也特別提到就說如果今天我們"},{"start":2919.383,"end":2946.53,"text":"真的沒有辦法達成協商的這個提案數比較多的話那我們有禮拜五禮拜一跟星期二來做處理如果真的真的沒有辦法處理的話真的我們還有星期六跟星期天來做處理那當然呢基本上我們也不希望說讓公務人員去加班但是大家也都知道就是中央政府總預算通過對於公務人員也是一等一的大事"},{"start":2947.15,"end":2950.774,"text":"因為如果我們趕快快速通過對於這些所有的公務人員來講他們也覺得應該會比較心安所以我覺得我們不需要排除星期六星期天不加開院會來做處理我覺得大家應該要有這樣的認知至少我們有這樣的認知"},{"start":2967.313,"end":2973.537,"text":"那另外一點就是說 那麼要不要用什麼整個統刪的方式過去確實有一些就是 當時比如說當時民進黨這個習勢很多的時候可能稀哩呼嚕的做一個統刪的方式 你統刪1% 2%等等之類的"},{"start":2989.187,"end":3004.897,"text":"可是如果統山的話事實上對於各部會的他們的就是他們的努力度還有各部會他的預算的需要度然後最後統山再來做調整其實是極不公平的而且其實對於立法院來講我覺得這也是不夠負責任的所以我們現在別說我們在通案的部分"},{"start":3015.183,"end":3024.471,"text":"通案部分因為我知道民眾黨有提出好幾個這個通案的部分如果我們這邊先行討論通案的部分如果定案那麼在三千多個案子裡面別說有出國費用的啦或水電費等等的"},{"start":3030.376,"end":3040.543,"text":"那我們可以依照這個通案就來做解決可能就已經可以刪除掉就是整個就pass掉好幾個案子就過去了吧因為我們先行來做一個這個大體的討論那但是呢終究各部會的狀況不一樣啦甚至呢比如說我們這次基本上我們都會對媒體宣傳廢那麼在野黨幾乎有一個同樣的想法這次要大砍"},{"start":3056.053,"end":3057.794,"text":"但是在我跟各部會去溝通過程裡面當然也發現說有些部會它確實有它的一個必要性跟需要性我們在理解了之後我覺得確實可以把一些部會它的特殊性我個人覺得是可以把它特殊性給它剔除"},{"start":3076.465,"end":3079.907,"text":"那所以我覺得我們還是應該好好的去針對那每一個提案的部分我們都來做討論剛才講就是說因為柯總統一開始從星期二說他絕對不能去限制他的發言"},{"start":3091.832,"end":3094.335,"text":"限制發言喔不是說是限制立法委員的職權限制發言是我們對各部會的預算更公平的去做處理否則有時候前面我們比如說我們第一個排名第一個是內政委員會我們花了落落長大部分的時間"},{"start":3111.676,"end":3116.597,"text":"那排名到後面他根本沒有時間給他好好討論他想要來爭取他的預算他也沒有時間來爭取他的預算這樣反而不公平所以在這邊也具體的來建議主席 院長我覺得不是說限制發言不是說是牽制我們立法委員的職權而是我們在預算的審查過程裡面我們給每一個委員會"},{"start":3136.363,"end":3141.884,"text":"他們所有的部會讓他們有足夠的時間被討論還有他們要辯護啊他們要足夠的時間辯護前面通通都內政部內政委員會一直辯護一直辯護到後面排到後面的倒楣了沒時間了那我們就全部要上戰場一起去做這個議事處理我覺得這反而是不公平的所以我覺得在因為我們現在是做一個大體討論我覺得我們進入開始討論的時候我認為還是要有一些時間的"},{"start":3165.669,"end":3170.9,"text":"限制也好 調配也好 控制也好我覺得這是必須的以上 謝謝"},{"start":3176.482,"end":3202.614,"text":"各位親愛的院長依照我們上一次協商的結論是這個禮拜三、四、五、三天來進行總預算的協商下個禮拜一、禮拜二我們針對沒有辦法處理或是共識的部分來進行表決各黨團都已經簽字同意下禮拜一、禮拜二我們來進行處理表決的時候不發言而且也不做重複表決這個是本來的基礎"},{"start":3203.916,"end":3208.186,"text":"那在這個基礎之上如果因為有什麼特殊的需求"},{"start":3209.588,"end":3237.554,"text":"或者是情勢的變更要變動也不是不行那就看哪一個黨團提案譬如說那星期五是不是就不要協商改處理那或者是說星期五同時協商同時處理我的意思是說我們現在在進行的程序是依照上一次白紙黑字三個黨團大家都簽名的程序在進行處理那我們"},{"start":3239.653,"end":3255.706,"text":"依照上一次黨團協商共識我們也都把時間全部都騰出來了全部都騰出來了那只要有協商的通知我們人就會到現場配合整個我們本來黨團協商的共識來加以處理"},{"start":3256.895,"end":3281.657,"text":"至於說在時間的分配上如果我們把大的時間分配的架構訂了我先舉個例子假設等一下沒有任何的黨團要提議變更本來協商的內容我們還是訂三四五協商一二來表決處理的話我是認為剛剛王宏威委員所講的內容是有道理的"},{"start":3282.598,"end":3306.473,"text":"就各個部會我們分配到八大委員會依照八大委員會目前所有的提案數來合理的分配我們協商的時間我覺得對於順位排在後面的部會相對而言會比較公平一點我們在整個時間的使用上也會比較有效率一點以上是針對程序的部分"},{"start":3307.293,"end":3334.038,"text":"那第二個部分是說剛剛民主進步黨的總召柯建民提議說我們是不是先講一個大的數字決定要刪多少錢那可能這樣子的方法我不太理解啦過去是不是真的都是這樣子處理的我了解每一次審預算的時候都有所謂統三的項目那但是那個只有統三的項目"},{"start":3335.051,"end":3349.152,"text":"那後面還是有其他個別委員的提案那我不太理解說那我們現在是真的要討論說在三兆兩千億的預算當中我們先來喊個價決定要砍多少"},{"start":3350.356,"end":3376.021,"text":"然後再往後走嗎這樣子的預算審查程序我覺得非常的奇怪我覺得非常的奇怪因為感覺好像在喊價嘛那第三個部分是從過去這幾年我們可以很清楚看得出來我們中央政府總預算的規模不斷的在膨脹膨脹的速度跟膨脹的幅度都相當的驚人譬如說2020年的時候"},{"start":3378.481,"end":3399.077,"text":"2020年的時候我們稅出的總預算是兩兆一千零二十二億到今年我們在處理2025年的時候已經到三兆兩千億的規模短短的五年間從兩兆一千零二十二億 膨脹到2025年的三兆兩千億"},{"start":3403.981,"end":3423.302,"text":"膨脹的速度跟膨脹的規模我必須要說非常非常的驚人那過去這幾年在處理總預算的時候我們在處理有關於統三的項目的時候其實一開始通案就是要處理統三的部分嘛"},{"start":3424.107,"end":3451.402,"text":"那通案如果說要處理統三的部分的話過去每一年針對哪一些項目統三多少錢我覺得這個都可以拿出來討論這個沒有問題但我希望我代表台灣民眾黨黨團的立場在開始進行所謂預算協商之前我希望要審預算要協商預算可以就好好的協商好好的討論"},{"start":3452.799,"end":3472.353,"text":"不要還沒有開始協商的時候啊就先給人家扣帽子抹紅抹黑的我為什麼這樣講昨天我們公布了台灣民眾黨黨團我們所有預算不管是刪減還是凍結的提案了以後民主進步黨黨團馬上說什麼馬上說我們"},{"start":3479.298,"end":3494.523,"text":"在統三的部分軍事設備大砍百分之三啊所以任何的軍事設備都是國安所需啊坐實藍白 劍指 國防 預算兩黨都是中共的在地協力者我要抗議這種說法我要抗議這種說法什麼時候開始審預算之前先給人家扣紅帽子啊說人家是中共的在地協力者"},{"start":3508.24,"end":3532.025,"text":"這什麼態度啊我完全沒有辦法接受這種抹紅式的抹紅式的處理方式如果是這樣子的話有什麼好協商的就不用協商了嘛一開始協商以前先給人家扣猴帽子更離譜的事情是什麼講統三軍事設施3%就已經成為中共的在地協力者來 我們來看一看過去"},{"start":3535.51,"end":3563.704,"text":"幾年統三的預算當中軍事裝備及設施統三多少2019年統三百分之四2020年統三百分之四2021、2022、2023統三百分之三過去這幾年不是百分之四就是百分之三請問過去這幾年贊成統三預算的這些全體立法委員是不是都是中共的在地協力者"},{"start":3564.844,"end":3594.145,"text":"是嗎話可以這樣講的嗎話可以這樣說的嗎我的統三喔以台灣民眾黨黨團來講外交國防我們已經是特別支持了刪的特別少的動的也特別少結果昨天預算提案一出來不講道理先扣紅帽子統三軍事設施及設備是中共的在地協力者"},{"start":3595.37,"end":3614.777,"text":"可以講這種話我再請問一次啊從2019年2020年統三百分之四請問那時候的立委是不是全部都是中共在地協力者過去三年統三百分之三同意的立委全部都是中共在地協力者"},{"start":3619.637,"end":3630.372,"text":"過去我還是只有講這幾年過去在國民黨執政馬政府時期2011年2012年2013年2014年到2015年軍事裝備及設施全部統三百分之五全部統三百分之五"},{"start":3638.001,"end":3654.35,"text":"如果今天民主進步黨黨團對在野黨所提出來的污蔑跟抹紅可以成立的話那我們過去這十年贊成軍事設備統三從百分之五、百分之四到百分之三全體的立法委員是要用外犯罪送辦嗎堂堂的執政黨堂堂的執政黨要處理預算"},{"start":3666.192,"end":3678.42,"text":"你要護航自家的預算我沒意見啊全體國民都在看嘛但你護航自家的預算護航到抹紅在野黨啊無法接受啊謝謝黃國昌總召的發言在柯總召發言之前我想跟三個黨團幹部來協調一下請三個黨團來聽一下剛才根據三個黨團的說法萬一我們在17號星期五以前沒有達成協商"},{"start":3696.192,"end":3710.567,"text":"那有的提出禮拜六星期六星期天繼續加開院會有的認為公務員要休息岂其不可那我調和一下我們嘗試擬一個草案徵詢大家的意見就是說"},{"start":3711.775,"end":3736.47,"text":"如果我們沒有辦法在17號完成協商那我們各黨團同意1月18號星期六1月19號星期天請聽清楚繼續召開朝野協商不是開院會不是開院會所有的立法院同仁都要上班就是我們這個朝野協商就繼續開那繼續開開到什麼呢我們繼續星期六星期天加開兩天朝野協商那我想這樣的話呢既有效率"},{"start":3737.17,"end":3761.291,"text":"又不會造成一些其他要休息的公務人員受到影響不曉得各位黨團同意不同意柯市長我們請針對這個好不好 現在請院長你現在是有很多題目要談你可以針對這個我同意但是我現在講的話不是只有針對你這個問題回答我要回答他們說的問題我們才會解決嘛"},{"start":3767.026,"end":3793.698,"text":"你聽我講嘛你組織會議要有點技巧嘛我先會回答你的問題嘛接下來他們的問題我也要回答嘛你想自主回答後面的問題嗎不可能的事情嘛好不好你們老是搞這一套來我先回答啦我講話你們講話我都沒有意見我講話你也有意見的你來駁斥我沒有問題好不好第一個"},{"start":3798.148,"end":3820.943,"text":"那天在協商的時候說今天下午兩點半後來改兩點是什麼情況大家都在黃國昌也在大家都在你也在你用這個來拗我可以一直跟你講你不要學習小青你要講真話你要天天亂拗這是不對的等一下我再回答就好了好不好"},{"start":3822.455,"end":3841.663,"text":"你當幹部的人應該要有程度上的一個莊嚴性啦幹部的人都要講真話嘛那其他人即使會用來攻擊你我都沒有去見你誰罵我都沒你但是在朝夕協商的時候我們要談真的事情當然有辦法處理事情院長你不用很無奈那樣的"},{"start":3843.064,"end":3856.51,"text":"對不對你對我的表情都有意見我在眼巴巴看著你好 感謝感謝所以我第一個要先講院長那天是怎麼講的因為我們今天下午今天中午我們三個人都在一起"},{"start":3857.645,"end":3880.587,"text":"你還有蕙琦還有我我們共產黨參加什麼?施明德四四基金會剛好一周年在銀山飯店因為我們兩個都是施明德基金會的董事所以我們勢必要參加本來今天賴總統也要去嘛 他們太忙了陳吉院長也一定去的 他們跟施明德非常好"},{"start":3881.789,"end":3892.555,"text":"那是在附近中所以我今天開頭就講你也很清楚那天我結帳的時候 婚姻協在 大家都在嘛"},{"start":3894.597,"end":3920.003,"text":"你們本來說早上九點,我說院長要注意一下,那天下午中國沒有參加,可能十一點半以前都要離開今天會搞多久,總不能坐一下就跑掉,我們是董事嘛少數幾個董事而已,那現在陳文憲身體也不好不能來了嘛那殷遠良今天好像也沒有來,殷遠良應該也來嘛,都幾個董事而已嘛好"},{"start":3921.943,"end":3938.452,"text":"那今天我要講就是說,因為這樣所有難聽,當天我們在那裡談的時候,在硬朗市談,我說誒,我們是搞定,誒,那等一等,要賀文,要賀文到兩年半所以大家異口同聲說,那我們下午還開始,反正大家心情不錯啦"},{"start":3940.738,"end":3964.398,"text":"一塊包括黃國昌現在跑的就是說我們有幾個結論嘛就是說總算在議場表決的時候第一個不發言也不重複表決反正發言沒有人能夠說服對方嘛該砍一定對方一定要砍有立場的我們就表決書就算了嘛"},{"start":3967.622,"end":3983.833,"text":"所以那天講了,大家很愉快把它簽起來,我也講說,大家用學生共識他生多少,由於中度去出來,歷年都如此,大家都很愉快啊,所以才定下說,"},{"start":3986.982,"end":3999.955,"text":"禮拜五還是禮拜六禮拜五還是禮拜一那只有一次會嘛只有一次會那另外就是到21號所以剛才黃國昌講錯了哪來22號21號就休會了嘛所以剛剛黃國昌還談到了22號還有時間"},{"start":4010.103,"end":4026.776,"text":"就是大家要把時間掌握得很精準,講話要很精準才能往下走下去,因為這是很嚴肅的事情這不是國事論壇,也不是記者會所以第一個,黃威常常講一句話,這個事情才開具人罵"},{"start":4031.019,"end":4051.011,"text":"說核心繫民,好像講到很專業的樣子核心繫民就講錯了我們剛才一開始講說就是講下午兩點半開始嘛那你何必在那邊弄我呢?弄我沒有用的嘛我又吐錯了好像突然之間很專業的樣子好,那我們現在要談的幾個問題,當然各位高見"},{"start":4059.219,"end":4078.908,"text":"我雖然剛剛離開,但是我要後面休息坐一下,走來走去但是眼睛來聽各位在講什麼第一個,剛剛講的統三以前都是民進黨多數的時候國外民進黨多數的時候就是如此"},{"start":4080.874,"end":4089.524,"text":"反對民進黨多數民進黨多數的時候全部給你們整得非常酷啦我告訴你從我進行議員到現在"},{"start":4091.789,"end":4118.988,"text":"我們民進黨表決會贏只有蔡英文執政那八年我二十二年的時間我在立法院三十年二十二年的時間表決從來沒有贏過就算沒贏啊因為少數表決一定輸嘛像我們現在少數表決一定輸阿伯輸十幾也一定輸嘛所以怎麼走就怎麼輸可是呢我們還是有諸法遊戲規則至少要講出一個道理出來"},{"start":4120.362,"end":4143.582,"text":"至少我們要贏得民心嘛這是民主制才能這樣走下去嘛怎麼說我們為什麼說民進黨多數的時候才有去統戰多少反而民進黨多數的時候在民進黨少數執政的時候給我們黨整個幾乎臨時啦我講一個例子就好八百的所有執政我們少二十席"},{"start":4145.951,"end":4174.532,"text":"兩千年兩千年你是多少二十席那今天你們六十二席當然按照表格論書啊這是天經地義的啊本來就是如此在阿本執政的時候給國民黨怎麼臨時讓砍預算所以後來才講說再怎麼野蠻也不應該如此去砍農業部的預算、環境部的預算、環文化部的預算共產黨從頭到尾都站著站著以後砍預算要小心"},{"start":4176.717,"end":4195.368,"text":"剛剛很小心以後就大家就談一談合理數字可是國民黨頭腦沒有這麼差他整個民進黨是算客的所以當年講好總運算一百五十億兩百億全部簽好了"},{"start":4197.489,"end":4206.175,"text":"所以我曾經發明一個要表決前他只能丟出來因為任何案子要表決前都可以拿出來我們今天所有案子都是一樣"},{"start":4207.441,"end":4229.033,"text":"所以補貼錢都可以拿出來因為你看國民黨不是黃國昌常常在修正在修正就是出版補貼錢我們不知道內容是什麼都可以拿出來總之算什麼等於措施性法律但是總之算有一三法五十二條規定可以做一些附帶求求先提期限但依法不合則無效"},{"start":4230.85,"end":4257.701,"text":"所以是議長講的是互來條件所以只有互來決議這怎麼會卡六法全書從來沒有一個主決議所以在加拿大都沒有主決議根本都是為此反正依照法議案的存續法律法議案只有互來決議而已而且法議案的互來決議只有互來決議一個人反對就沒有了"},{"start":4259.341,"end":4275.81,"text":"這是這樣的 等一下 阿伯 阿伯我再繼續講就是說 我要駁斥就是說 國民黨不是民進黨都是搞這一套國民黨多數的時候才是搞這一套 因為這樣比較快 以前我都專門跟廖友本協商的嘛"},{"start":4277.691,"end":4303.613,"text":"好 我們現在回來就是說剛才有幾個講錯 當然我也尊重你們不統三 還是不論統三 不論個別三我們都尊重 都尊重 都尊重你們完全不統三 我也尊重因為 你想你們多數網站都怎麼樣只有任你們宅哥而已嘛 任你們樓運而已嘛但是到最後 大家回到道理上面來講"},{"start":4304.494,"end":4328.467,"text":"沒有關係 我都以尊重我們現在看到很多部委都被什麼凍結凍結預算只剩下一塊錢了 入委會啊 檢修部等等我們都尊重 沒有關係那凍結並沒有酸 那個比酸還厲害所以你們出很多怪招難怪我們今天報紙都寫出來連週十聯合都在罵所以你自己要清楚"},{"start":4329.548,"end":4352.549,"text":"我們都尊重,等一下可以,你說完全不同山,OK我們都尊重,以後你逼逼謝謝我,我要謝謝你讓我講話好不好這是我的前例我現在講的都是重點啦,等一下我們才能走下去啊到底是這樣,我要講廢話嗎"},{"start":4354.945,"end":4371.633,"text":"所以你要不統三,我尊重不能統三,不能一定要三的,我尊重只有全部不統三,我都同意所以這個你們自己決定,我們少數,這是第一個要講"},{"start":4375.325,"end":4402.351,"text":"那是有關於國務黨當然講的嘛他們有針對各部會各部會要攻擊農外部你這個有關於工程收購你又搞這一套了你印記要算多少我都聽到你們在講嘛三億、百億等誰...這是你們的潛力但是你要面對最後的民意而已啦這一點齁請林世民可能比較理性你隔壁那個範圍王可能拿起來亂搞"},{"start":4404.11,"end":4424.5,"text":"我有一些耳聞啦 好不好那我坦白講 沈逸帥的時候不是像想像中簡單我們都盡量和諧 我都盡量 啊 大家不要說 尤氏會講清楚就好了沈逸帥過去 有一個案子可以一天吵一天啦浪費你很多時間 那我明天還要趕著召集"},{"start":4426.176,"end":4450.449,"text":"你不道歉可以卡三天,都有,實際上都是有的所以我們今天要講的就是說今天大家有限時間面對整個國家中央政治總預算你連三個月的水準一起去抓,看你能不能合法要監督政府不要亂搞,你把政府搞垮是你自己要負責我先講清楚"},{"start":4452.042,"end":4459.352,"text":"何仙繫銘好不好接下來黃國昌何仙繫銘是你有愛你以前議會沒有講這個何仙繫銘來我一一回答當然沒有時間我會講KID"},{"start":4467.622,"end":4494.975,"text":"我要把這講完,大家要怎麼樣才能夠迎刃而解重點黃國昌大委員,我最喜歡吐他的臭,他最喜歡吐我臭常常他現在都很忍耐,不會跟我黑黑叫,因為我不插他嘴他就沒辦法了只能等下插他嘴他跳起來,他跳起來跑掉也不好所以這是我們大家要忍耐一下,好好講"},{"start":4498.317,"end":4523.437,"text":"有些是對的,沒有錯從那天講,學商很愉快我覺得說不發言,也不從不表決對可是他現在又講到一個但是各位假如要改變你的時候全部不學商來表決,他還贊成我都尊重"},{"start":4525.337,"end":4543.406,"text":"但是各位,這些有三千多個案,這樣保留下來,你要追保安表而去,你按到天亮,但一個月要按不完。重複表決再保結,這樣一個月要按不完。以前黃金平在的時候,曹偉強是我一個人坐下來,所以各部會,沒有說先去溝通的。"},{"start":4545.475,"end":4549.68,"text":"在現場顯輸贏,政府進來,政府拿些案子,在場有一件,馬上辯論,馬上顯輸贏現在發明一套,要先去溝通"},{"start":4561.275,"end":4581.154,"text":"是被凌遲而已嘛,因為小助理就可以把立委罰站或趕出去,或是算是罵,這個在立法院罵到連隔壁的人都看不下去,排一整排好像在捏米粉的,好像去吃飯的,這個今年何在?"},{"start":4584.301,"end":4594.088,"text":"行政部門的尊嚴何在?其實沒有在黨也不會這樣所以今天講清楚好像你們在黨要講清楚只要混合制的"},{"start":4595.473,"end":4610.404,"text":"還是單純的協商或是協商混合式或是完全不協商全部一表決你們自己決定好不好你們自己決定我完全奉陪等一下再來柯總召你到現在還沒有回到我剛剛提出來的那個你陸續後面發言沒有沒有我發言太長了嘛我講清楚以後再發言院長"},{"start":4619.431,"end":4623.575,"text":"主席 有這麼多人可不可以互相尊重一下尊重講話嘛 我把話講完嘛 你們現在怕我講到我要跟黃國昌咨詢罪責 你們在怕什麼"},{"start":4637.326,"end":4643.87,"text":"主席一句都插不了嘴你怎麼會這樣子呢你聽主席講一下嘛對不對我們一直都尊重你啊一直在尊重嘛你講那麼久主席只是說聽主席講一下話這麼困難嗎"},{"start":4655.795,"end":4673.002,"text":"你尊重別人這麼困難嗎你尊重我把話講完嘛一個人講四十分鐘你讓主席講一下好不好你不能讓主席講一下好不好他講的很有道理現在預算規模不一樣2000年的時候是兩兆一總算多少"},{"start":4675.854,"end":4695.21,"text":"到現在是二零二五年是三到二所以不能統三兩百變成四百這有道理但是呢我都能夠接受那這個事實上為什麼能夠分到三到二以前兩到一代表我們執政的時候把經濟搞得很好所以說才增加嘛才有可能這樣這不是急債來的"},{"start":4699.773,"end":4711.119,"text":"這個財政記憶法是存在的最後最重要,還沒一開始就沒黑沒紅我告訴你,你說你跟人家說,這個有道理那一黨那個表,設備通關3%那通關3%的時候,一日設備通關3%"},{"start":4722.162,"end":4737.71,"text":"但是今年情況比較不一樣我請問,潛艇的運算可以通山嗎?有一個機敏,國家很需要戰機的維護,那可以通山嗎?無人機可以通山嗎?"},{"start":4739.051,"end":4758.976,"text":"這些都是和國家安全非常重要的你可以通商嗎所以這個要分這個是用這個來騙的用這個來騙的你們藏了嘛藏了多少東西所以我們胡適耀根本沒有我而已他根本沒有某黑某紅你"},{"start":4761.132,"end":4774.948,"text":"司法造勢是因路人皆知的,我們要講清楚嘛所以我們今天要談國務黨的案子,國務黨...柯文召對不起,我不能再讓你發言了太不尊重其他人了,一個人講40分鐘"},{"start":4779.333,"end":4781.234,"text":"我們不是在辯論 我們在協商已經會一個小時了 你都不講"},{"start":4801.382,"end":4814.492,"text":"你以為我是白癡啊?你這什麼主席啊?我講的是國家安全的問題你今天不讓我講我也不讓你講國家安全嗎?你不要講國家安全嗎?那你為什麼不讓我講話?那既然他說我...我可以回答嗎?我可以回答嗎?"},{"start":4826.875,"end":4833.177,"text":"我這樣講因為柯總統講到現在還沒有還沒有同意禮拜六禮拜天是不是加開朝野協商"},{"start":4853.874,"end":4882.024,"text":"因為我們先確定我們會議的時間再來討論我們議案我現在跟各黨團幹部報告柯文聰你剛剛說要答應我你針對禮拜六禮拜天加開草野協商你要同意還是不同意你講了三十多分鐘你還沒有同意禮拜天有禮拜天加開草野協商我們不加開院會可以嗎院長"},{"start":4883.382,"end":4894.587,"text":"你們要怎麼樣,要加開,我絕對沒有意見你們不同山要全部表決,我還沒有意見我們先處理開會的時間,不是討論我們不是討論一些內容嘛,先確定開會的時間嘛我們在野黨是少數,全部配合不是,我們先確定開會的時間我們現在就簽字囉禮拜六禮拜天加開草野協商我們不加開院會"},{"start":4912.486,"end":4940.928,"text":"好請黃國昌請那個我尊重院長會議的主持啦但我可能要懇求院長一件事三個黨團的發言我覺得基本上還是要公平剛民主進步黨黨團進行了第二輪發言那其他兩個黨團是不是也有相同的機會來進行第二輪發言那時間上我們都尊重院長的設定院長如果要設定譬如說三分鐘五分鐘給大家一個清楚的時間我們都願意遵守但我覺得"},{"start":4941.989,"end":4959.222,"text":"各個黨團有公平發言的機會這個是一個重要的原則民主進步黨黨團剛剛已經玩了第二輪了嘛那其他的黨團是不是應該有第二輪的機會然後請院長採釋好 那個總統幹部長 容許我再講你不要壓麥克風嘛我講這個主席要怎麼講我可以講一個鐘頭這種招 你不要壓麥克風發言好嗎"},{"start":4972.355,"end":4997.369,"text":"不只他各位黨團幹部因為我們有這麼多的案子當然要大家我們自己來控制一下發言時間那我剛剛所提的這些先確定我們星期六、星期天要不要加開朝野協商我們先針對這個議題大家來發言發言完畢之後我們就確定了實際的議程那到預算內容的時候大家可以各自發揮好嗎好 我們請傅坤吉總統請"},{"start":5000.804,"end":5015.425,"text":"院長辛苦了我想先對剛剛院長所提出來是不是我們六日啊能夠來進行朝野協商那基本上柯總統剛剛也表達他願意配合"},{"start":5016.089,"end":5045.234,"text":"那基本上在我們發言的同時我建議院長就已經把抄襲協商的結論先給大家簽就不用影響到我們現在持續的發言好不好那第二個就是當然我們還是國民黨還是保持持續善意的溝通啦但是我在這裡也提醒一下院長抱歉我也提一下院長我要請問一下哪一個全世界哪一個先進的民主國家"},{"start":5048.089,"end":5064.28,"text":"國會議員的發言是沒有限制時間的,在哪一個民主的國會,他的發言可以肆意妄為,要講一天也好,要講半天也好,個人獨白也好,還是幾十年來的牢騷都可以講。"},{"start":5066.287,"end":5084.719,"text":"這個真的我們要一個制度到底發言時間是多長你可以講一輪講兩輪講三輪沒有關係因為大家是一樣的平權都可以來講話但不能老是因為這已經一年了我們已經忍讓了一年了大概我們每次講話"},{"start":5086.5,"end":5099.897,"text":"今天因為剛好柯總知道腳不太舒服在旁邊走來走去不然平常我們的講話都很難順利講完中間都要被他插話 插個七八次算正常那 院長我們還是"},{"start":5101.513,"end":5130.298,"text":"不能永遠叫在野黨去忍讓我們的發言到底是多少時間這個要一個明確化如果他們一輪民主進步黨執政黨如果認為他一言的一輪的發言不能不能把他的重點講完可以第二輪再來講沒有關係那這是一個事情要拜託院長來主持這個會議程序才不會像今天這麼多的委員不滿因為大家羈押太久了"},{"start":5131.554,"end":5156.602,"text":"羈押太久了 您做的財處我相信大家都會支持那再過來一個就是我們本來今天兩點鐘就要開始協商這個總預算的內部實質的協商那我想柯總召剛剛大筆一揮我們要這樣耗掉一個多小時那現在是不是可以拜託一下"},{"start":5158.203,"end":5181.091,"text":"因為既然有三千多案其實歷年來也差不多是這個數字也差不多是兩三千案 三四千案也差不多啦那是不是 我想是不是就懇請院長我們在協商每一案的時候協商每一案的時候 時間不能超過多少"},{"start":5182.892,"end":5208.471,"text":"因為基本上基本上我想我們提案的委員或許要表達也可以或許不表達那如果執政黨要發言就一次違憲我們就要下一案那一次是多少時間明確就針對該案來表達意見就好我們要再次強調這一年來國民黨一直非常理性的"},{"start":5209.468,"end":5230.67,"text":"在立法院尊重院長的指示以及我們立法院所有的議事規則我們都照這樣來進行但這一年下來每一次在干擾議事不能開會的佔領主席台的往往都是執政黨我們還要很費力量的去排除"},{"start":5231.604,"end":5258.08,"text":"被佔據的這個主席台才能夠順利開會這我們深表遺憾但是更讓大家覺得不解的就是國會議員來監督行政機關對所有預算的執行不管是刪除也好 不管是凍結也好今天國防部的部長顧立雄先生對於說我們潛建國造"},{"start":5259.141,"end":5283.512,"text":"要怎麼樣的來保護我們的國防今天不管朝野有哪一個黨在反對而且事實上也是依照顧立雄部長的要求他114年他只要用2億但是就很奇怪服變了一個20億那明確問了他只要用2億為什麼要編個20億所以18億的凍結是這樣子來的但是呢鋪天蓋地的這些網軍跟側翼啊"},{"start":5288.939,"end":5313.445,"text":"一直在攻擊我們這個事情這個是國防部的部長顧立雄自己要求的那我們按照民進黨執政黨所派任的國防部顧立雄部長他的要求來做成這樣的一個提案就變成是我們又代表哪一種勢力在這裡不斷地攻擊不斷地抹黑"},{"start":5315.035,"end":5337.317,"text":"那對於啦 這個總計算已經到三兆多對這施起義的這個媒體文宣啦我想這個已經是整個台灣的一個悲哀啦一個執政者已經握有所有的權力他沒有好好的來跟在野黨溝通也沒有召開國事會議我不曉得賴總統到今天為止"},{"start":5339.69,"end":5363.737,"text":"他沒有去參加施明德主席的這個名單的今天中午的宴會他當然很唏噓 他不能去啊因為在那種年代裡面施明德主席願意讓朝野喝大海節的咖啡大家坐下來談但是今天已經整整超過一年了賴清德總統您當選超過一年"},{"start":5365.919,"end":5389.068,"text":"有沒有要來召開國事會議有沒有來跟所有的在野黨來溝通我們完全看不到這個國家元首該有的行為嗎然後再用了人民的血汗錢現在百工百業多麼辛苦台灣的觀光竟然農曆年住房率只有三成多百工百業如此的辛苦而此時此刻"},{"start":5393.111,"end":5418.033,"text":"還有這麼多的網軍側翼拿了人民的血汗錢在這裡死一萬尾來攻擊在野黨來做各種的攻堅所以啊這個執政者就是錢已經多到像這個黑熊學院連我們警政署要怎麼做防衛還要請黑熊學院拿兩千多萬來教大家防衛"},{"start":5419.318,"end":5447.035,"text":"更好笑的是內政部長劉世芳還要辦家庭遊會要請黑熊學院來辦他甚至否認這個事情然後當密件被大家查到以後又說我還沒發包這舉例也不一定是他而劉世芳部長又通令各縣市這個密件不能給民代看到為什麼一個執政者用這種鬼鬼祟祟啊見不得光的態度"},{"start":5448.854,"end":5467.533,"text":"我們在這裡再次強調一個執政者應該有寬大的胸襟 慧紅的格局應該好好的來對國家發展的方向大家來溝通不是到處藏這種錢用人民的血汗錢 養網軍養側翼來攻擊在野黨這不是一個執政者該做的態度"},{"start":5469.642,"end":5498.906,"text":"那還是回到我們今天是總預算的朝野協商我敦請院長我們已經忍受了一年了敦請院長全世界哪一個民主國家的發言是沒有時間限制的請告訴我請告訴我那是不是每次一個人的獨白一天的會議就沒有了而且剛剛講到是不是啊大家現在談統三要三多少額度"},{"start":5501.136,"end":5528.967,"text":"這也是柯總召提出來的我都沒有發言 我們都敬表尊重因為這是你的看法接著下來又回馬槍他國防預算可以捅三嗎 潛艦可以捅三嗎無人機可以捅三嗎我們彷彿是格式啊才半小時前柯總召自己講的半小時以後他才來否定這個東西說怎麼可以捅三那我們實在聽不懂了前後也不對題啊"},{"start":5530.66,"end":5556.623,"text":"那所以說我們還是回到說我們主案的來審查尊重各個委員的提案這才是一個國會議員該做的事情我們早以前該做的事情好不好 謝謝我們請黃國昌總召請二人發言謝謝主席喔我還是針對事情先從頭到尾可能要做一些清楚的理解剛剛柯建民總召在離場的時候"},{"start":5558.838,"end":5575.078,"text":"他指責在場其他黨的代表是跳樑小丑賣國跳樑小丑賣國我們沒有辦法接受這樣子抹紅的謾罵我們現在是在進行黨團協商"},{"start":5577.864,"end":5598.279,"text":"先對總預算進行黨團協商啊堂堂執政黨的總編總召指著其他黨團的代表說我們都是跳梁小丑在賣國請問這是什麼態度啊可以這樣子嗎第二個就是論事來談"},{"start":5601.032,"end":5624.609,"text":"軍事裝備及設施我相信每一年我們編國防預算軍事裝備及設施當然都很重要每一年都很重要2019年的時候那個時候最緊張也很重要2020年也很重要2021年也很重要"},{"start":5626.102,"end":5654.984,"text":"結果剛剛柯建民總召他把他們黨團幹部抹紅為了要辯護他們抹紅在野黨這一種不實的言論說今年不一樣那奇怪了那代表是過去這幾年曾經被統三的軍事設備裝備百分之五到百分之三過去這十年那些錢都不重要"},{"start":5656.53,"end":5685.269,"text":"我們現在不是在講統三百分之五十或百分之七十或百分之九十的軍事設施欸百分之三欸百分之三欸我們提案欸從過去歷年統一的標準最低的百分之三提案結果竟然被我們執政黨的立委抹紅成什麼中共的在地協力者喔可以做這種事喔可以做這種事喔"},{"start":5686.69,"end":5709.503,"text":"什麼叫做中共的在地協力者那我就要請教啊過去這十年贊成統三的全體立法委員是不是全部都是共匪還是全部都是匪夷諜在堂堂的國會殿堂上面對其他的在野黨按照以前的前例所提出來統三的議案可以這樣抹紅喔可以這樣抹紅喔那這個就印證到 為什麼"},{"start":5716.004,"end":5733.193,"text":"我們要在媒體宣傳費用上面大砍嘛因為即使是不實的言論啊即使是抹紅的言論啊他們鋪天蓋地的用他的媒體優勢啊根本沒有在做事實查核啊要抹紅就抹紅啊這就是我們現在台灣的民主啊所在面對的狀況這個事情很嚴肅啊"},{"start":5744.397,"end":5770.168,"text":"我一定要把它講清楚台灣民眾黨黨團對於我們的國防預算支持的程度是在所有部會裡面不管三檢的金額跟額度提案數我特別交代我們所有黨團的成員支持台灣的國防結果呢我們換來的是什麼換來的是按照以前的通例"},{"start":5771.229,"end":5790.559,"text":"指三百分之三被你民主進步黨抹紅成是中共的在地協力者我再強調一次我無法接受我無法接受最後如果按照執政黨的這種態度的話我呼應剛剛柯建民總召所講的"},{"start":5791.772,"end":5806.461,"text":"他說 可以不用協商啦要直接處理 他通通都同意啊我應該沒有記錯他剛出去以前是這樣講的嘛那如果是這樣子的話 案子這麼多嘛我就呼應柯建民總召剛剛所講的啊"},{"start":5808.468,"end":5832.847,"text":"要直接處理他通通都同意啊台灣民眾黨黨團競表同意就按照柯建民總召剛剛所講的說法我們直接處理我們直接處理台灣民眾黨黨團同意所以我建議等一下協商結論是不是明天早上4點鐘明天早上9點鐘 明天禮拜四嘛明天還是開委員會嘛"},{"start":5834.307,"end":5853.375,"text":"對 那沒有關係啊我們就從星期五早上九點鐘開始直接就進場處理了然後處理到下禮拜二剛好有三個整天的時間可以做處理嘛因為我們上次在學商結論的時候已經講得很清楚了沒有重複表決這種事喔"},{"start":5855.08,"end":5883.253,"text":"沒有重複表決這種事白紙黑字都簽了今天我們是本於善意坐在這一邊參與協商但我坐在這邊參與協商我不是坐在這邊讓你抹紅指著我的鼻子說我是中共的在地協力者按照以前的通歷3%是中共的在地協力者講這種話會不會太過分啊"},{"start":5889.855,"end":5898.107,"text":"兩位黨團的幹部,國民黨團跟台北黨,針對星期六星期天加開草野協商,同意還是反對?這個還沒講"},{"start":5900.836,"end":5927.963,"text":"院長大家都沒有意見你台灣民眾黨還沒簽嘛台灣民眾黨講得很清楚我現在要徵詢一下還沒有簽所以我才問嘛不是啦我是呼應啦剛剛柯建民總召所以我才不簽嘛院長你提出來的是禮拜六禮拜天來協商嘛但柯建民總召剛剛離場的是說不用協商我們直接來處理嘛那我為什麼沒有簽完全呼應他的說法所以我提議啦星期六星期天"},{"start":5928.983,"end":5943.942,"text":"星期六星期天就加開院會直接處理要不然剛剛柯建民總召很擔心嘛大家一直按表決器時間會不夠星期六星期天就開院會來處理我不會同意你發言你等一下你先讓我處理開會的時間我等他講完我要講"},{"start":5948.847,"end":5971.277,"text":"因為那個剛才黃總召我給你報告柯總召的意思是說如果要表決他接受如果要協商之後大家達成共識他也接受他不是說只有單一他有說到兩次所以現在星期六星期天要不要加開朝野協商關於這個提案大家同意不同意我們先確定這個再發言好請"},{"start":5975.263,"end":5994.818,"text":"星期六星期天喔 要加開院會這件事情加開草野協商就沒有必要啊 就按照剛剛K建民的發言完全沒有必要啊院長他反對啦 好啦院長他反對 那我們就趕快協商吧好 我們先休息十分鐘院長 您再怎麼休息 等一下讓我來讓"},{"start":5996.26,"end":6014.767,"text":"你不要跑啊 何柏峰在講瞎話嘛 自己講是自己表決的啊你現在要咬我 你老是講...短一個人講了一個小時你有沒有尊重其他開會的人啊柯總統你有沒有尊重其他開會的人啊"},{"start":7703.274,"end":7719.357,"text":"好,謝謝,歡迎各位黨團幹部請坐柯總召,來,你在,我已經看到,來,好,小心小心,走路小心好,謝謝各位黨團幹部請坐,剛才在休息前我們柯總召有舉手要求發言你,你,拜託拜託拜託,黃狗黃狗"},{"start":7733.197,"end":7735.558,"text":"我們請柯總召發言院長各位委員同仁針對程序性問題各黨都有發言"},{"start":7761.977,"end":7789.161,"text":"那副總召黃總召發言要反逼我,當然我要回應發言那反映黨也知道這個道理首先我要對於副分級總召講一句話我曾經跟你講過你要限制我開會發言的時間,除了你把我打死黎明而死,不末而生"},{"start":7790.663,"end":7803.243,"text":"你說全世界沒有一個國家沒有限制每一個國家都有限制只有一個國家已經講錯了只有一個國家在中國限制發言的時間限制發言"},{"start":7804.747,"end":7825.598,"text":"你知道美國最有名的叫Free BusterFree Buster是什麼就是說你可以去發言你從你站起來走到發言台然後到開始發言都不能中斷所以從站起來走到發言台就開始太空漫步"},{"start":7827.58,"end":7842.128,"text":"三進三退,這樣都搞了一整天然後呢,站上去發言的時候,這個是不可以中斷你說不可以停,停就不可以了所以曾經有人講過,這樣都搞了一個禮拜"},{"start":7845.959,"end":7869.732,"text":"這是民主的展現所以只有 不容易看人出來所以只有中國限制發言 不能發言 全部舉手表決就像我們韓院黨主持兩次的議會所以很多事情都亂講 都亂說所以你們是在實踐民主 我們要反民主"},{"start":7874.634,"end":7900.475,"text":"你們是假民主,然後再反民主各位,從立法案這一屆開始我們忍受韓院長以及你們這一干人等這樣的柔韻然後踐踏國會,沒收國會你們先5月17號國會改革方案"},{"start":7901.673,"end":7913.417,"text":"假改的話你先擺在占領主義台占領主義台以後然後黃國昌在直播那種靜笑臉孔現在有點消瘦然後呢就"},{"start":7919.639,"end":7946.444,"text":"用典型表決這個誰發明的請周恩來你要解釋一下可以這樣搞嗎我在立法院30年來30年來從沒有看過這樣的東西這種叫民主嗎沒有人說時間到也不協商也不能委員會也不能講話沒人說要到議會一個月到就表決要表決的時候也沒有先協商違反議事規則"},{"start":7949.845,"end":7976.657,"text":"68條,直接寫了68條68條是院長存在最重要的一個條文當有議案或是糾紛解決的時候院長必須怎麼樣?必須主動來處理另外一個,有黨團行動給院長,院長也要處理這是一晚所有能夠存在的是這個道理王晉民院長的時候是怎麼樣呢?"},{"start":7978.749,"end":8005.87,"text":"一個法案一個法案協商22次那就是使你安全管理法要扣到沒收也曾經我進來的時候第一屆我進來的時候一個法案協商23次使你安全管理法有跟油品自由化的問題所以這個立法案的民主是這樣產生的協商以後"},{"start":8009.522,"end":8036.061,"text":"有捷運,有幾條沒有捷運,就那幾條發言所以才能夠節省時間完全沒有捷運,那就到以後完全沒有捷運,也要簽一個,照意思程序處理這是要簽署的所以它變成怎麼樣?從來沒有捷運,時間到講好幾次都沒有捷運那就全部,所有人都發言"},{"start":8037.668,"end":8060.603,"text":"所以我們在執政的時候,你還記得嗎?農業水域管理,農業水域組織規程要把水域收割國有時候,國民黨反對,期間幾日都不成當然進行一日程序,國民黨每一個都發言我們都接受,喔,發言以後,發言以後什麼?就表決,表決,就訂輸贏輸贏去視線"},{"start":8065.006,"end":8093.279,"text":"就是這樣我們今天也是這樣我們是不是在我們表演給你看過從去年6月4號原住民地方補償的時候我簽署給你們我們表決發言的時候有兩個人所有的事件是不是這樣為了這個事情已經講了講了去年6月份講到現在"},{"start":8094.693,"end":8113.221,"text":"那最近是不是我要建立立法院的文化我們都不讓人家這樣學怕包括書在表決區就哪也不表決你用什麼點名表決點名表決你都跟誰是誰啊所以好像全部都在亂講說誰沒有來誰是點名的啊所以說在這個地方我要特別駁斥"},{"start":8124.042,"end":8149.237,"text":"你看藍白匪憲亂政那結果是要把台灣民主完全掐死嘛我說習近平長命管轄台灣國會,沒收國會沒收民主就是這個道理嘛民主大拉拉的到中國去保護林然後呢回來以後有什麼動作其實喔這個整...院長"},{"start":8151.869,"end":8175.293,"text":"1月13日議委選舉完畢以後,我們就很清楚了所以就,教育黨已經加起來過半嘛然後掌控立法院嘛所以我在1月14日講過一句話,洪國昌那時候說這個中心院長要做國會改革那當院長要不要做室外改革這不是院長職責,院長職責就是議員組織法第三條"},{"start":8179.178,"end":8199.249,"text":"又是你要什麼?你要什麼?你要運輸中立,你不能用黨職這是立法院組織法規定的院長要調和定來,所以他不能用黨職你不能當你黨的主席所以是這個原則所以各位"},{"start":8200.461,"end":8224.022,"text":"要了解法律因為體系的法律 違憲 亂證 而且公然違法程序都不爭議程序不爭議 實質 坦白講是違憲的 是違憲的雖然這個大法官沒有通過但是很多人表示非常嚴正的聲明不同意見書我今天要講的是說國民黨今天實在有夠見色 有夠漏氣"},{"start":8229.076,"end":8249.309,"text":"全部講反話連羅志強也可以做民主協議韓院長還是在那裡說要幫我辦告別式我不知道韓院長你作為院長你什麼時候跟我們講說你不要生氣你要幫我辦告別式院長我們都不敢說笑的不敢說好笑我會幫你辦"},{"start":8253.235,"end":8275.735,"text":"離開議員的告別演講而且時間很快你看著不久以後你就要在議員做告別演講議員告別演講最有名的一個人是誰因為這是議員傳統嘛你以為要離開的時候一定講什麼一定讓每一個人上台講五分鐘三分鐘去講他這一屆他離開的感言"},{"start":8277.423,"end":8289.031,"text":"第二屆讓漢偉進來,一起當立法委員,就是前副總理秀蓮第三屆的時候做一半,劉邦有失業,他再去做,他再轉做縣長"},{"start":8291.383,"end":8316.052,"text":"他離開立委會,辣伯感言怎麼講呢?立委會是正義的伏筏爐陳文謙講什麼?立委會是個搖子,他來灌搖子所以這極其諷刺民主才是民主是一天一天的養成的三四年來我在這裡很仔細的觀察每一個人的言行"},{"start":8318.373,"end":8337.446,"text":"今天我們共同今天連這個傅雲齊也講到施文哲要朝野和解你上台也是講說很表面的話講民運黨的話但是你在做的事完全不一樣你沒有照民主程序來連傅雲齊也講說他去撐一張施文哲的紀念會施文哲一生講"},{"start":8347.611,"end":8366.734,"text":"朝爾和解它是在進行的它一生最大的用心度是什麼?它影響台灣最大而且呢它從朝爾和解不溫藍綠大家來和解和解不是口頭講的"},{"start":8372.202,"end":8381.094,"text":"我剛去演講的時候我第一個上台我相信議長你坐在台下他安排我第一個講話我最後決議怎麼講我決議講說施恩德是在1月15號過世"},{"start":8388.618,"end":8412.318,"text":"他本來是月十三號過世的那故意不把他管讓他應稱到月十五號因為那一天是他的生日所以市民就說他沒有妻子才有生日他生日是辦得非常快樂最後的時候是我和他太太以及兩個女兒在榮總的普通病房把她移到普通病房"},{"start":8414.605,"end":8439.336,"text":"然後身上放著他最喜歡的花 包括什麼 椰漿花 百合花 薏蘭花 都很香的花這些花都是 也是我最喜歡的 我特別帶去放在市民的遺體上面 我們和他那兩女兒一起看 唱什麼 唱生日快樂歌"},{"start":8441.095,"end":8468.414,"text":"所以今天 西洋有一個首歌最有名叫上帝的恩賢 阿伯因格伊茲出生不可以 走路不可以所以今天 我剛才說我們今天應該放阿伯因格伊茲不是安息吧那種歌今天用薩爾巴吹安息吧 那不對我要講的就是說我們要看清楚很多事情我都思念一生"},{"start":8470.017,"end":8485.744,"text":"每一個人從每一個角度去讚揚他柴安曼德拉什麼拉傑斯等等你也上次來講過的話沒有一個人能夠完整的描述生命的一生的偉大以及他的理念所以我講過一句話"},{"start":8489.454,"end":8510.961,"text":"因為無畏無怨完整的講所以大讚,你要大讚,讚美他,大讚無怨今天是他的生日,有大喜,大喜無笑只要有笑聲,保持笑容就好了所以今天我要講的最重要就是說"},{"start":8513.552,"end":8520.934,"text":"37年前的1月13號那天1月13號我開記錄因為你罵我13號出來12號罵我說幫我告別式我說可能韓院長講錯了他應該說幫我辦這個離開立委告別感言我即將在這一屆做完絕對離開那我想啊誰會先離開還不知道"},{"start":8542.492,"end":8570.284,"text":"也許我們同時離開也許以未來自在總統我不知道也許也許你很快就要告別感言了請你好好聽清楚這個計畫會一理成真的所以但是呢我最後的決議就是說37年的1月13號是一個很重要的日子"},{"start":8571.516,"end":8583.544,"text":"我不知道在這國民黨黨員知道嗎?37年前的1月13日是蔣經國逝世紀的那天當天朱元海跑到來接葉嶺"},{"start":8585.697,"end":8609.435,"text":"他應該卸罪 貴賊卸罪才對蔣家兩個父子雖然他們戒嚴當然這是歷史上一個非常大的錯誤但是呢 他們基本是反共的結果你們共產黨的這些徒子徒孫現在跟共委要唱和"},{"start":8612.001,"end":8626.281,"text":"蔣介石和蔣經國一定沒有從湖面跳起來幫你痛罵才能跳起來痛罵所以今天我最大的感言就是說新的一聲反共他從來不去大陸"},{"start":8627.523,"end":8650.87,"text":"他在領導大臣的時候就講過台灣本來就是獨權獨立的國家他沒有罪後來果然被放出來他一生被判過死刑好幾次被關過但是他的理念台灣本來是獨立的國家我們是雙雙總統偶爾我們自己有自己的軍隊所以到今天為止"},{"start":8652.151,"end":8659.366,"text":"國民黨還是死抱了一國兩制這個黨一定會完蛋的所以我今天說"},{"start":8661.575,"end":8687.987,"text":"蔣經國的遺志 蔣介石的遺志以及世民的遺志我會幫他實踐我們一定要反共我們要大罷免這大罷免的時代來了把這個國民黨全部罷掉這些賣國者全部罷掉院長對不起 請問一下大罷免跟預算是什麼你們已經把大罷免罷免放到預算裡面我們知道啊你們有很多大罷免都放到預算裡面你不要講話我不懂啊 其元柯總長我們現在在談預算啊你不要講話你講那麼久我都沒有猜到"},{"start":8691.048,"end":8696.118,"text":"你插什麼嘴啊?你插什麼嘴啊?你插什麼嘴啊?你插什麼嘴啊?你插什麼嘴啊?你插什麼嘴啊?"},{"start":8703.157,"end":8712.419,"text":"沒有資格 沒有財養 沒有水準 你拍什麼桌子啊你拍什麼桌子啊那你們在講預算 你講什麼倒報免 我問你嘛我問你嘛 你是不是把倒報免的預算編進去講啊我們一直揉揉你 你從現在已經都揉到兩個小時過去了都沒有談到預算任何一個具體的 全部在替你擱見名欸 請問一下 你是行政院長嗎 你是總統嗎"},{"start":8733.854,"end":8740.638,"text":"你講幹嘛沒啊我替你我原諒你你講啊我跟他講啊我原諒你是有限度的啊憑什麼你一直講你以為你是誰啊你是請在這邊講嗎報長一句話都沒有講報長你有講話嗎郵箱是你在用嗎郵箱是你在用嗎為什麼你再替你講話你講幹嘛沒有我只是要講啊怎麼樣我為什麼要再替你講"},{"start":8759.67,"end":8767.976,"text":"你講任何一項的事情了嗎你給他制止一下啦你給他制止你給他制止你給他制止你給他制止你給他制止你給他制止"},{"start":8778.802,"end":8794.466,"text":"嚇死人了現在你跟你說我要全三我要直接表決你說直接表決也可以你現在這樣很不愛啦你真的這樣很不愛啦你停職了好不好可以停職了嗎你以為我是白癡啊你以為我是白癡啊主席講話啊我要回應韓國昌嘛聲音聲音主席講話"},{"start":8805.936,"end":8808.641,"text":"好不要再講了啦不要再講了啦我剛才有講過不要再講了從來都已經排除了"},{"start":8814.707,"end":8839.52,"text":"所以我現在排除調法不要再講了 廖主席講啦你要把國防預算講那麼多 三十八億三十八億然後徐曉鑫你們現在都在談預算嗎 廖子祥是沒有在談預算的國防部長是你找國防部長 國防部長不會答應你的所以你們這些人喔 每天說話都想你們現在談預算了嗎 你們現在談到預算了嗎你夠得了這一關啊"},{"start":8844.403,"end":8846.164,"text":"你們這些小鬼斷殘"},{"start":8863.885,"end":8876.716,"text":"你們把國安黨都敗壞掉國安黨現在只剩講謊話的人是白癡啦你說要講謊話我們能申請簽預算嗎我們能申請簽預算嗎沒有在申 天天都在講謊話不要人家纏鬥什麼東西啊你們根本沒有資格再當國會議員了那各位黨黨要不要先把好 你們先讓院長講話三十兩億總算是八億"},{"start":8894.013,"end":8902.642,"text":"三十五一塊錢在哪裡啊你們現在責任是什麼你用這個動作你用這個主席把他綁死"},{"start":8911.491,"end":8932.645,"text":"中央醫生全部不能動 本身刪減了20億啦看院長 看院長剛才你們還講過 你要不要道歉嘛 你要不要跟徐曉新道歉嘛我說道歉 他一定要跟我道歉他沒有刪除 你說他要刪除他沒有刪除 你說刪除啊中央醫生完全都不能動"},{"start":8937.208,"end":8962.163,"text":"好 各位黨黨幹部麻煩各位黨黨幹部請麥克風讓我講兩句話陳時長差太多了 韓院長讓我講兩句話好不好議員何其可變 用這種跳紅小手來當議員各位黨黨幹部請到底你們能夠做什麼事情嘛當民意代表都沒有資格 當人都沒有資格要當立法委員國務黨會死得更快"},{"start":8965.779,"end":8978.803,"text":"黃國昌整天說好笑什麼東西是我主張要直接表決你主張直接表決也可以我一概判斷今天的協商各黨人都沒有共識黃國昌因為一天都說好笑 按時不可能壞上午11點開始協商那今天也非常謝謝各位列席的官員我們現在散會"},{"start":8995.089,"end":8995.31,"text":"你們還要鬼捨"}]},"meet":{"sessionPeriod":2,"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[],"term":11,"id":"黨團協商-2025011543","type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商"}},{"id":"16470","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16470","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db86ebbf7d18770eafd2752fdacda41c8618d20170ff19eea6318ab8a86f4137415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-01-15T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「產業創新條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一及第十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員林岱樺等18人擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一及第十七條之一條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等29人擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一及第七十二條條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員何欣純等23人擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n六、本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一及第七十二條條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一及第七十二條條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一及第七十二條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「產業創新條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案。\n(第一案及第十一案如未接獲議事處來函，則不予審查)\n【1月15日及16日兩天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-01-15","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-01-15T08:31:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-01-15T15:30:00+08:00","duration":25119,"影片長度":"06:58:39","委員發言時間":"08:31:21 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bwd6"},{"start":892.227,"end":907.763,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":1350.162,"end":1368.387,"text":"明镜及点点栏目"},{"start":1398.517,"end":1399.63,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1464.667,"end":1475.034,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1504.048,"end":1508.234,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1731.294,"end":1739.451,"text":"好先請主命報告出席人數報告聯席會出席委員18人已足法定人數好我們現在開會進行討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":1743.689,"end":1765.187,"text":"审查一行政行情审议产业创新条例部分条文修正草案案二本院委员葛如今等16人拟据产业创新条例第10条之一及第17条之一条文修正草案案三本院委员林大化等18人拟据产业创新条例第10条之一及第17条之一条文修正草案案"},{"start":1765.946,"end":1786.953,"text":"4.本院委员杨求英等29人拟据产业创新条例第10条之一及第72条条文修正草案案5.本院委员何新存等23人拟据产业创新条例第10条之一条文修正草案案6.本院委员邱毅英等16人拟据产业创新条例第10条之一及第72条条文修正草案案"},{"start":1788.053,"end":1813.688,"text":"7.本院委员蔡奇桑等18人拟据产业创新条例第10条之一及第72条条文修正草案案8.本院台湾民众党党团拟据产业创新条例第10条之一条文修正草案案9.本院委员谢一凤等16人拟据产业创新条例第10条之一及第72条条文修正草案案10.本院委员邱志伟等20人拟据产业创新条例部分条文修正草案案"},{"start":1814.477,"end":1818.421,"text":"好 謝謝本日議程所列的討論事項是產業創新條例部分條文修正草案一共有11個版本那現在我們進行委員的提案說明"},{"start":1838.058,"end":1844.584,"text":"在場有葛如君委員請葛如君委員做提案說明時間3分鐘"},{"start":1857.313,"end":1872.944,"text":"謝謝主席在場各位同仁大家早安本席的提案是修正產業創新條例第10條之一以及第17條之一主要是針對人工智慧的技術以及之後更先進的科技希望能夠給予盈利事業所得稅的投資抵減"},{"start":1873.824,"end":1891.498,"text":"并且在原条文在100万元以下11元以下的支出的金额天花板给取消大家都知道AI训练需要极高的训练的成本假设AI模型每年都强大10倍合理的推论训练的成本将会指数的成长"},{"start":1892.299,"end":1910.011,"text":"市場傳聞Chad GPT需要超過3萬顆的繪圖處理器OpenAI的執行長Sam Altman也說Chad GPT-4的訓練成本是1億美元Enthropic的聯合創始人Amede目前也說開發AI模型要花費10億美元以上"},{"start":1910.791,"end":1938.499,"text":"估計2025年2026年2027年訓練的成本甚至會膨脹到100億美元甚至1000億美元相較於本席的版本行政院的版本僅將支出底稅的上限由10億元台幣提高至18億元新台幣也就是6000萬美元跟我們剛剛所聽到這些10億美元100億美元甚至1000億美元比起來有著不小的落差"},{"start":1939.159,"end":1966.059,"text":"那么也就跟未来的这个AI训练还有相关的产业的实际支出呢有非常显著的距离所以呢希望今天列席的部位代表以及在场的各位委员都能够支持本席的版本让我们为AI产业的发展做最强而有力的推进器那另外一方面呢本席的版本也提到关于产业创新技术相关技术的人才培育支出应该要给予盈利事业所得税的抵减"},{"start":1968.12,"end":1997.313,"text":"本席的版本的特别强调有关巨量资料人工智慧物联网机器人以及区块链等等相关的领域相关的训练活动以及人行机器人等等新兴的产业这些支出的成本都希望政府给予相关的租税优惠正在现行条文第10条局限于研究发展相关支出才能抵税是有所不同的人才的培育相关训练所涵盖的样态更广我们的AI内阁呢喊出五年"},{"start":1997.893,"end":2022.181,"text":"要培育出20萬名的AI人才經濟部也是主責單位之一如果公有口號而不能給予產業實質的誘因那麼五年一到政府的20萬名AI人才恐怕淪為空頭支票經濟部的郭部長還有相關的部會官員如果決心要培育AI人才希望能夠大膽勇敢支持本席的版本"},{"start":2022.941,"end":2037.209,"text":"我想前面講的租稅優惠希望能夠將天花板提高而人才的培育也應該做相關的租稅抵減我們一起為提升台灣AI產業的競爭力而努力希望很請支持 謝謝好 謝謝下一位提案說明請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":2052.903,"end":2072.904,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊發言本位委員楊瓊英 鄭振前 翁曉琳 廖偉祥等29人我們有鑒於產業創新條例租稅優惠的措施是為了要優化產業的結構達到智慧升級轉型並鼓勵多元創新的一個效能原定租賃優惠的時間將於113年12月31號就已經屆滿"},{"start":2077.108,"end":2094.955,"text":"但是我們考慮到智慧機械可以協助產業在整個創新彈性高效的生產以及服務的一個優勢那麼國內的企業雖然已經達到了進行智慧化但是在整個結構的彈性處理必須要有一段的時間"},{"start":2096.255,"end":2110.671,"text":"所以仍有促進產業投資的應用的必要性所以我們凝聚了產業創新條例第10條之一以及第72條條文修正草案第10條之一也就是投資制使"},{"start":2111.412,"end":2127.665,"text":"使用之全新的智慧機械第五代的行動通訊系統資通安全資通安全的這個產品或服務人工智慧產品或服務那麼節能減碳之相關全新的硬體軟體"},{"start":2129.466,"end":2137.629,"text":"技術或者是技術服務那麼他比照的金額還是維持原來條文也就是在課稅年度內呢合計達到新台幣100萬以上那最高最高10萬元以下的範圍也就是在整個這個頭檢的英納盈利事業所得稅額這個當中這是第10條之一那第72條銜接的部分呢我們增訂了第7這個第72條的第"},{"start":2160.098,"end":2170.563,"text":"72條的第7項很重要的也就是本條例自我們中華民國某年某月某日修正之第10條之一施行期間我們從114年的1月1日起到118年的12月31號為止換句話說也就是希望能夠延續的來支持我們的產業"},{"start":2189.389,"end":2195.236,"text":"謝謝下一位提案說明委員請台灣民眾黨團張琦開委"},{"start":2211.029,"end":2223.956,"text":"為了促進這個產業發展所以我們今天台灣民眾黨特別提出了產業創新條例部分條文的修正案首先我們針對第10條之一本來這個租稅這個優惠本來已經要"},{"start":2229.605,"end":2242.492,"text":"達到這個落日條款的這個時間了我們的條文裡面特別把它延長到118年的12月31號把落日重新再讓太陽再升起來把這個優惠延長到118年12月31號"},{"start":2245.894,"end":2270.764,"text":"另外項目這段時間看起來有很多新興的科技有需要再放到新的裡面來所以我們這次的修正條文裡面我們擴大了優惠的投資項目特別增加了把人工智慧還有節能減碳納入這次的修法的內容裡面來這個是呼應了當前重大政策2050年淨零排碳還有整個AI的發展"},{"start":2274.534,"end":2292.653,"text":"另外在第十條之一的第三項為了考量AI整個科技的發展以及機械所見這個整個劑量的資料資訊化所以我們在這個條文裡面把人工智慧相關這個產品還有服務這個範圍做一個文字的整併跟文字的調整"},{"start":2295.416,"end":2309.452,"text":"另外在第四項針對最近推廣的5G行動系統我們也做了文字凶制讓法規可以符合當前的定義另外在增設第六項這部分最主要我們是把"},{"start":2310.753,"end":2328.863,"text":"這個行動通訊明定要人工智慧的這個技術跟它涵蓋的範圍要做一個更明確的一個定義讓這個法規用語能夠更與時俱進接地氣那提一個條款做一個一列的這個條款謝謝希望這是支持台灣民眾法提出的版本那今天除了經濟部次長在這邊財政部也在"},{"start":2331.204,"end":2355.369,"text":"那每次在這個修法過程之間我們有討論財政部每次都說不要修太大這個優惠不要太多然後項目不要太多不過我相信照台灣民眾黨這個項目看起來這個增加幅度應該不會很大對產業的創新也有很大幫助我們今天也呼籲今天財政部可以支持台灣民眾黨的版本 謝謝好 謝謝下一位提案說明委員請邱議員"},{"start":2366.172,"end":2389.943,"text":"謝謝主席主席各位同仁今天本席提出產業創新條例第十條之一及第七十二條的修正案這是一項針對我國產業發展需求跟全球趨勢量身定制的法案修正的目的是為了持續推動產業智慧升級轉型鼓勵多元創新應用並因應近鄰排放的全球趨勢協助國內產業在國際競爭中立於不敗之地"},{"start":2395.766,"end":2413.94,"text":"針對現行的條例裡頭我們包括智慧機械第五代行動通訊系統及資通安全產品或服務提供租稅優惠但這個試用的期間已經在113年底屆滿了為了延續對企業創新發展的支持本席建議延長試用期間至2029年"},{"start":2415.942,"end":2442.738,"text":"也就是从114年到118年同时也希望新增投资抵减项目包括人工智慧产品或服务及节能减碳措施这些新增的项目符合当前科技快速发展的脉动尤其是生成式人工智慧技术的应用及低碳转型将带来深远的影响跟经济的效益此外本席也认为为了降低企业投资的门槛"},{"start":2444.079,"end":2466.475,"text":"提升創新又應有必要進一步提高投資抵減的支出金額上限行政院版本提議的是18億元我們的版本提出將上限提高到20億元希望能夠更有效促進企業投入資本密集的智慧化與綠色轉型此舉將減輕企業對高額設備汰換的負擔並加速推動產業升級的進程"},{"start":2473.18,"end":2493.348,"text":"修法当中还对智慧机械人工智慧及节能减碳的项目进行更精准的定义确保优惠措施能聚焦于产业升级有重大效益的核心技术跟应用本次的修法不只是为了延续现有的政策更是为了回应企业未来需求与国际发展的挑战"},{"start":2494.008,"end":2516.872,"text":"我們希望透過這些措施能夠吸引更多的企業持續投資於智慧化與永續化的創新應用推動台灣邁向綠色智慧經濟的領導地位以上是本席的提議提案的緊要說明 敬請支持 謝謝好 謝謝接著請經濟部市長連井章市長做報告"},{"start":2524.747,"end":2550.733,"text":"主席 各位委員今天感謝貴委員會給本部在此向委員進行產創條例部分條件修正草案的一個專案報告那剛剛各位委員都有提到近年國際經濟情勢的變化快速產業場面擬新的趨勢跟挑戰尤其是淨領排放跟世衛轉型等議題而且產創條例第十條之一投資底點辦法也在去年底屆期所以本部就擬具了產創部分條件修正草案"},{"start":2551.246,"end":2565.498,"text":"那主要整個的修正的一個方向有三大構面第一個我們在產創時之一我們擴大設備投資底檢的適用範圍除了保留現行的智慧機械項目並提高智慧化程式之外5G"},{"start":2566.559,"end":2578.262,"text":"系統跟資安項目我們保留下來那新增人工智慧跟節能減碳項目同時把申請適用金額由現行的10億元提高到18億元那執行期間從114年1月1號到118年12月31號那在23之一有限合夥"},{"start":2586.284,"end":2592.486,"text":"創投四月投資新創租稅業會我們把出資的門檻由3億調降為1.5億元那在三之二的個人投資新創租稅業會部分我們將新創適用的範圍由現在設立未滿兩年放寬到未滿五年個人投資門檻由現行100萬調降為50萬同時如果是屬新創投資國家重點產業者他所得"},{"start":2610.431,"end":2634.04,"text":"檢除上限可提高到500萬元另外在對外投資管理機制上就是22條我們對於從事國外投資以特定國家或地區則我們增訂的特定產業或技術達一定金額以上的情形要事先向中央主管機關來申請核准同時增訂法則的一個配套措施"},{"start":2636.755,"end":2654.791,"text":"那以上是我們整個修訂的一個方向那建請大院、裁會黨團來支持本院行政院的版本然後通過以便早日完成修法程序讓業者在114年得以適用業位以上報告敬請各位委員指教好 謝謝 謝謝經濟部連次長的報告接下來請國發會請國發會高先貴副主委報告"},{"start":2664.049,"end":2691.692,"text":"主席各位委員大家早安今天很榮幸呈邀就產創條例修正草案進行報告那我想剛剛那個次長已經有談過這次產創條例的修正重點有三大重點那對台灣產業結構的調整還有企業競爭力的提升還有國家經濟安全的保障可以發揮極大的效用那第一個呢就是呢第一個就是新增的人工智慧跟節能減碳的項目呢"},{"start":2693.313,"end":2706.905,"text":"為這個設備投資極簡的適用範圍那這個修正將可帶動台灣淨零跟這個數位的雙軸轉型因應全球AI創新跟淨零碳排的挑戰跟機會第二個呢是鬆綁了有限合夥的創投事業還有"},{"start":2710.168,"end":2721.241,"text":"天使投資人的適用租稅的抵減的這些門檻及條件那這個修正將有助於引導更多的資金投注在新創的事業那對台灣創新創業將發揮積極的效應那第三個是調整對外投資的管制的機構"},{"start":2731.192,"end":2755.263,"text":"那将有助于台湾关键技术的保护以及产业竞争力的提升尤其是目前台湾面临全球地缘政治风险的升高这个修正将更为重要那我想基于这个修正可以确保台湾将来竞争力的提升产业就构的调整跟经济安全的保障然后我们建请大院能支持这个法案的修正以上报告"},{"start":2759.224,"end":2778.145,"text":"謝謝國發會高先貴副主任報告 接著請財政部次長李慶華次長做報告主席各位委員先進大家好 那今天財政委員會聯席審查行政院行政審議的產創條例相關修正草案還有大院以及各黨團以及黨團"},{"start":2779.045,"end":2802.299,"text":"所提议的修正草案总共有11案那有关这行政院版本的部分修正重点经济部刚才已经详语说明了我们就不再重复说明那只是针对有关大约各委员党团体案的部分简要说明如下那关于这个本条第10条之一提高这个就是支出的金额上限以及扩大适用范围延长施行期间其实跟行政院的版本大致相同"},{"start":2803.799,"end":2830.066,"text":"因为行政院的版本已经充分考量产业的需求以及未来科技发展的趋势并且针对产业的需要来检讨相关的内容所以建议能够支持行政院的版本有关委员提案增订本条例17条之一人才培训支出投资体检的部分考量企业人才培育大多是基于自身经营的需求而且现行国际上已经多无类似的租税优惠"},{"start":2830.726,"end":2856.389,"text":"我们建议能够维持现行的规定另外研发投资抵减的部分在于提高抵减率及适用范围部分这个部分也是考量我国现行一例事业所得税的税率跟邻近产业的结构类似的国家相较已经是偏低的而且我们所提供的租税要会其实跟邻近国家也都相当类似所以我们也希望这个部分能够建议维持现行的条文"},{"start":2856.989,"end":2881.402,"text":"至於還有人提案放寬第23條之一適用門檻23條之二適用主體及增第23條之四創業投資事業的股東投資點部分呢主要是因為現行我們稅法已經對投資業者提供多項的清稅的規定那這個部分呢對於獲利部分減輕了相當提供了頗為優惠的課稅規定那如果再提高這個投資成本的減稅優惠"},{"start":2882.463,"end":2910.364,"text":"可能会有这个重复抵减的问题或者多重的所得税优惠那跟纳税者权利保护法第六条租税优惠的不得过度的规定呢有些不符所以我们建议能够审慎考量那今天这个版本行政院的版本其实已经通盘对这个产业发展的趋势以及需求都已经适度修正扩大了相关的租税优惠措施所以我们也敬请支持行政院的版本那以上报告及说明敬请各位文职教育支持谢谢"},{"start":2912.236,"end":2929.368,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝財政部李慶華次長的報告那有關於數位發展部跟環境部的書面報告請委員致敬參議院我們並刊登公報我們進行合併詢答委員詢答之前主席原意做以下宣告每日委員發言時間本人席會"},{"start":2931.369,"end":2958.059,"text":"為5分鐘必要時延長1分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點即時發言登記也為了讓會議能夠順利進行也兼顧每位委員發言的公平性以及盡可能不要影響下位委員的發言權益在每位委員諮詢時間結束之後主席會立即請諮詢委員聽諮詢,還請各位委員能夠配合,感謝好,第一位諮詢請邱毅委員"},{"start":2967.642,"end":2987.516,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我先請一下經濟部請經濟部連次長歐院長次長早 次長很高興今天還可以在這裡看到你來 那個在我們"},{"start":2989.051,"end":3008.55,"text":"首先我想要先請教一個時事題馬上就要過年了那這個經濟部在日前有宣布春節的油價方案是止跌不漲對不對所以你們會在這個時候把這個油品的價格去把它控制在一定的油氣都不會調"},{"start":3009.13,"end":3034.089,"text":"油氣都不會調那水電呢因為我看到卓院長說這個水價應該要適度的調整那開始就有媒體在寫說這個卓榮泰只是水價要上漲所以你們可能會上漲四成那很多人開始人心惶惶我是不是利用這個機會讓經濟部也說明一下好不好你們現在水電有沒有調整的方案那如果有什麼時候會做"},{"start":3038.117,"end":3060.957,"text":"來我跟你們報告其實這個水電是不是要漲這個都有一個審議委員會而且這個審議委員會在調的時候也會通盤考量到國內的整個經濟情況還有民生的一個消費一個狀況不會說貿然去調整所以一定會經過一個深思熟慮的一個情況再來調整那院長講的只是說我們可以去討論但是討論不一定會去做一點"},{"start":3061.678,"end":3081.767,"text":"也要等到一個不是說討論就一定是你還是要等到你們的審議委員會討論完之後才會確定嘛對不對審議委員會一定會經過通盤完整的考量才會去做一些決定所以我想對於媒體這樣的報導我覺得可能你們也應該要去跟媒體做一些澄清因為第一個還沒有經過討論"},{"start":3083.717,"end":3109.326,"text":"也不知道他到底會不會漲即使會漲也不一定是像媒體講的那樣子對啊媒體馬上就給你寫說漲四成所以我認為這樣的一個報導其實對於大家覺得要過年了經濟部在處理會讓人心惶惶是所以我想這個可能經濟部你們可能還是要再去再去做一些澄清再去做一些說明我們有事實對外澄清說這個東西"},{"start":3111.727,"end":3134.578,"text":"接下來我想還是要請教一下次長我們今天討論這個產創條例這個大概整理了一下這個是你們行政院的幾個版本我現在大概幾個問題要請教這個問題大概其實大家都覺得抵減金額到底應該要多少會比較好行政院的版本是18億那本席提出的版本是20億"},{"start":3135.879,"end":3160.994,"text":"那我的這個版本20億的數字呢其實是跟郭智慧部長希望的20億是一樣的可是我剛剛聽了財政部的報導他說我們已經通盤考量過了我們就這樣已經很好了所以呢他希望大院支持你們18億次長你們怎麼看因為我們這是行政院版本我們在內部所以你現在還是必須要支持行政院版本你還是只能講18億嘛對不對如果當20億會不會比較好一點"},{"start":3165.646,"end":3190.319,"text":"如果到20億會不會比較好?你覺得到了20億是不是對企業的誘因會更增強一點?18億跟20億差2億而已政府怎麼不可以比較大幅度誘因一點?內部討論是有考慮到一些橫平性還有一些租稅方面的一個橫平性的問題橫平性跟租稅方面喔?來那個陳陳布市長我請教一下"},{"start":3193.508,"end":3198.292,"text":"18億跟20億只有差一點點 到底你們有沒有去精算過 差這個2億你們的稅損會差多少所以如果不是太多的話 為什麼不能變成20億"},{"start":3212.184,"end":3235.339,"text":"報告委員 基本上我們當然是因為這個18億也是我們跟經濟部在行政院充分討論大家獲得的共識我瞭解是經濟部堅持喔那個是財政部堅持喔 部長他希望的是20億喔所以部長現在還是在對外講說他希望能夠去爭取到20億如果說有差一點點或者是有超過20億的他還要想辦法去幫他們爭取一些優惠喔"},{"start":3236.219,"end":3257.855,"text":"其实我们有参考就是以往年度我们提供这个十条之一置机投底的那个金额大家适用的状况那其实看起来大部分的企业都是符合规定的都在我们那个十亿的金额以下那只是说少部分的产业当然有一部分会超过但是这次我们也配合就是加入人工智慧还有就是节能减碳我们也把这个金额提高了"},{"start":3258.235,"end":3273.041,"text":"那其實這個金額我們也是考慮說因為企業其實它購置機器設備它不會一次全部買足因為它是分年或者是分批分階段購置所以基本上它每一年只要在這個金額範圍內它都可以使用這個投資體檢優惠大家也知道一個設備如果金額很龐大勢必是要分階段分年來購置的所以我們覺得這個18億的金額其實也是我們在行政院跟經濟部也是有討價還價的結果才決定了這個金額我覺得你們我剛問了那個稅損"},{"start":3286.907,"end":3304.147,"text":"會差多少你們有沒有算過稅水二十億的部分你當然這樣講你當然說因為那個設備購資他不會一次一次把它購足他會分年我當然知道他會分年但是如果政府能夠更大方一點我提供更好的租稅優惠更好的這些條件"},{"start":3306.082,"end":3332.171,"text":"我覺得其實它是會創造更多的誘因創造更多的投資而且你現在講的人工智慧其實很多的這些設備費用是跟你往年的這些設備費用其實是天差地別的所以你現在講說往年只有10億所以也達不到這個那我現在提高到18億我覺得已經對他們很好了我認為如果是這樣的思維其實這個不叫創新啦你們還是在講說我已經有給你了啦這樣已經夠了啦"},{"start":3334.733,"end":3344.198,"text":"而且您剛剛的報告其實你就跟各國來比較跟各國比較你就覺得說我們沒有比人家差但是你沒有告訴我你有沒有比人家好"},{"start":3345.734,"end":3371.288,"text":"這就是我們最大的問題你知道嗎你都告訴我說人家也有這樣啊人家也沒有那樣啊所以我們不會比人家差但是你沒有告訴我你提的這些東西有沒有比人家好所以我想這一點我覺得你們應該要換一個角度去思考你提出來的東西有沒有比人家好有沒有比其他國家好有沒有比其他國家更優惠這個才是創造誘因最大的利基點"},{"start":3372.168,"end":3379.89,"text":"因為主席已經站起來 我就不再多說了但是我覺得可能你們還要再去思考一下好 謝謝委員好 謝謝邱委員 下一個質詢請陳提菲委員謝謝主席 我們請次長哪一位次長連次長連次長"},{"start":3402.717,"end":3429.11,"text":"院長市長早市長其實我們當每一次在談我們的新創或是中小企業然後現在增加了我們昨天剛公布然後今天早上馬上可以上線申請的中小微企業其實我們爭取很久了就是說我們過去所看到都是中小企業但是幾乎都忘了其實在"},{"start":3430.635,"end":3453.44,"text":"最有底氣在基底為我們打拼我們創造經濟奇蹟的很多都是30人以下的包括零售業製造業還有服務業可是往往我們在龐大的一些協助轉型的預算當中都忘了他們的存在所以我們談了好久爭取好久終於"},{"start":3454.6,"end":3480.26,"text":"我們的中小微企業也就是30人以下的多元振興發展計畫正式上路就在今天可是我們在談的我們現在就是三個策略數位轉型 淨零轉型 通路發展是我們在這一次中小微企業多元振興發展計畫的三策略然後"},{"start":3481.511,"end":3508.945,"text":"三配套也就是30以下企業優惠貸款租稅優惠還有為員工加薪納入信保審核機制這叫三配套一窗口我們馬上辦服務中心在我們馬上辦其中有90線有90線喔這個是創了過去我們一直在提醒每一次我們的專案一出來"},{"start":3512.008,"end":3532.132,"text":"響叮噹然後大家講得很大聲可是實質真正受眾群搞不清楚因為受眾群沒有辦法完全得到我們的資訊結果最後為了要考積業績趕快隨便找幾個人說你趕快來申請趕快來申請"},{"start":3536.052,"end":3556.91,"text":"沒有辦法真正達到受眾群需要的人身上這在過去我們每次在專案計畫當中非常重要的問題而且當他們知道了來不及了因為整個專案預算已經申請光所以在這一次"},{"start":3558.852,"end":3569.908,"text":"從一開始我特別安排了我們部長還有一個單位去到市商會去跟所有最重要的受眾群也就是工會"},{"start":3572.23,"end":3600.516,"text":"百工百業百工百業對於在這一個中小微企業其實是最直接最重要的受眾群所以當那一天說完之後他們有很多的開心終於終於所以我們好不容易撥了這一筆預算我們怎麼能夠到位沒錯我們現在有馬上辦服務中心可是馬上辦服務中心能夠真的到位嗎"},{"start":3601.796,"end":3626.237,"text":"我還特別請了我的辦公室做了圖卡最直接的圖卡 最接地氣 而且最跟人民聲音接近人聽話啦一些圖卡趕快來做散播因為我們希望把這麼好的東西真正能夠協助我們中小企業來做轉型中小為企業所以市長"},{"start":3630.509,"end":3639.305,"text":"到底在這一次你預期今天開始登記嗎開始可以申請嗎你們認為你們在前面宣傳的夠嗎"},{"start":3643.115,"end":3660.607,"text":"現在開始因為我們部長今天下午要召開這個專案會議啦因為就是他有委員邀請他到台南去嘛然後他聽完之後他覺得說就像委員講的說我們這個一定要把訊息整個把它廣泛的要把它讓所有人知道你要對著受眾群啊對對所以他今天下午針對這些"},{"start":3662.228,"end":3687.856,"text":"他已經要開專案會議來盯這件事情所以說這個事情我們部長已經是列為我們專案而且每個禮拜要跟他做報告我們當時候第一時間就趕快給所有百工百業還有給所有的我們的理事長或各工業區的理事長所以我們認為你的受眾群而且受眾群你不是單一窗口馬上辦服務中心請問這90縣"},{"start":3691.653,"end":3711.791,"text":"他们都完完全全知道怎么申请可以去协助吗我请到副署长说明一下吧我们之前有把这些90线的人加强训练然后把所有的QA放在上面那当然我们的网页上面也有一些智能的回答他们可以帮忙做盘点"},{"start":3712.592,"end":3730.633,"text":"做診斷嗎沒有他們會把這個他的需求還是他們就是把需求然後登錄下來再轉接給相關單位我們會立刻幫他對接因為中小企業並不知道要對接誰所以就是由我們這個單一窗口立刻把他對接到我們會有一個服務團"},{"start":3732.9,"end":3746.804,"text":"所以你會把案子如果打進來我們的馬上辦服務中心你們會馬上對接給服務團 輔導團啦對不對 給輔導團 由輔導團去做直接的協助盤點 診斷 它適合哪一個區塊是數位轉型 還是淨零轉型 還是通路發展 對不對"},{"start":3762.849,"end":3786.643,"text":"這很重要喔市長我今天會再利用這個時間因為我很重視因為這是我們從過去一直爭取一直爭取好不容易看到曙光也好不容易看到整個案子能夠真正的推出雖然經費不大可是起碼可以有一個契機還有另外一個部分就是在我們銀行端"},{"start":3787.623,"end":3808.111,"text":"我們現在有一個問題喔我們現在給大家很多的期待喔可是銀行端是不是最後又會站在他們自己立場的考量然後以高標以高標來做限制這個你們要去處理我們會注意我們會透過聯府中心跟信保這一塊來協助處理這個很重要再拜託"},{"start":3811.172,"end":3833.704,"text":"這個不要我們提出來說哇 你看喔你可以申請三千五百萬這範圍當中都可以結果講得很大聲事實上可以核准的這些三十人以下的都完全得不到真正政府的協助拜託 一定要每一個點都盤整到底而且都協助到底 再拜託這我保證他們自己訂在廣告訂在廣告 請你回座"},{"start":3838.874,"end":3856.512,"text":"好 謝謝 先為志願請郭博文議員謝謝主席 有請經濟部的連次還有財政部的連次財政部理事長"},{"start":3862.369,"end":3885.511,"text":"我先請蓮池喔蓮池你這麼早退休是國家的損失啊沒有啦沒有啦蓮池今天的這個主題當中的稅市支出當中的報告我看到又發了投資金了智慧機械還佔440億但是新增的部分的AI只佔了72億老實講我是覺得很誇張因為國會跟國科會已經投入"},{"start":3885.811,"end":3907.704,"text":"百億的這個研發經費預計要帶動這個產業發展再加上行政院說要推動大南方的新矽谷計畫也在台南的沙崙建立了AI產業園區賴總統甚至說要打造成一個人工智慧島要成為全球的AI的影響力中心我請教一下這72億可以達到這種效果嗎是的"},{"start":3908.922,"end":3931.268,"text":"那個各位報告那個是整個是AI講的你是70而已是購置設備啦喔是硬體啦它又發出來的效果不是70而已是購置設備而已設置設備而已所以說它基本上後面的potential的部分大概有多少啊potential不一樣搞不好會有10倍20倍左右對啊你們要寫清楚啊這要寫出來才有感覺嘛"},{"start":3932.208,"end":3954.446,"text":"不然你花那麼多國家經費下去然後喊了口號又震天響結果呢導致的結果就72還比這個傳統的智慧晶蟹的部分440億差那麼多另外一個部分川普1月20號要上任那川普要上任的時候你要知道拜登時代我們跟他談了21世紀貿易協議基本上是要走向自由化"},{"start":3954.966,"end":3971.412,"text":"可是川普呢你也知道他現在對外關稅已經成立一個專責機構也就是說他拉高關稅基本上兩個是相抵觸的我就問你一個問題這21世紀貿易協議我們已經要進入第二階段的生存區包括勞工 環保 農業的部分還走了下去嗎"},{"start":3972.703,"end":3998.203,"text":"抱歉這個我沒有涉獵到是OTA你沒有涉獵到但是你們國貿局底下也是有參與啊你們經濟部會沒有參與嗎會不清楚嗎應該要清楚才對啊怎麼會不可能我查過你們是小組之一嗎回答一下那個我請貿易署的副署長讓得下去嗎委員好那這個部分我們要等這個川普政府上來之後你等他上任你現在都沒有評估不會吧"},{"start":4001.306,"end":4015.877,"text":"還在等所以預期到人家的政策方向是這樣子啦你們現在ING進行中也沒有可能繼續你真的沒有辦法回到本席沒有做一個評估我有點壓抑欸跟委員報告針對川普他的團隊要嚴厲要"},{"start":4018.719,"end":4042.008,"text":"提升那個關稅這個部分我們是有在做研究說有哪一些廠商或哪一些一個是自由化一個是要提高關稅壁壘一個是走經濟民族主義一個是採取那個自由化的方式完全是不一樣的你怎麼會沒有一個政策判斷呢第一個是這一個第二個他關稅如果提高的話我就問你一個嘛他關稅之所以提高原因是在三半位順利差的部分嘛對不對"},{"start":4042.968,"end":4053.744,"text":"他認為對他美國國家損失嘛那我就問你啦 強勢我們再來算2024年我們對美國的出超你知道多少嗎最新的數字"},{"start":4056.738,"end":4076.073,"text":"649億沒有沒有我現在這邊數字是649億然後你比2023的部分成長了83.5%大幅成長大幅成長喔之前大概300多億而已你看看我們有沒有可能會被針對的對象有沒有可能我們是列在第十幾個"},{"start":4077.35,"end":4104.242,"text":"報告委員那這個其實是一個所謂一個像我們對中國的出口這我知道啦我們廠商撤回來從我們這邊出口就算我們的啦但是事實上就增加了嘛是報告委員那我們出口到這個美國的產品基本上都是中間品其實是對它經濟發展是非常有利的我們會從這個方面所以你不認為我們會被制裁我們關稅不會被提高你很樂觀很有把握"},{"start":4105.442,"end":4126.492,"text":"我們會盡量去跟美方去溝通去溝通我跟你講人家我們之前在財政委員會央行都有具體的做法他說要平衡這個貿易順利差的部分第一個買武器第二個買農產品第三個買他的天然能源也就是天然氣你們沒有做"},{"start":4128.743,"end":4153.886,"text":"你們連有做都沒有做都不曉得我都跟你們查出來了你們之前是澳洲卡達最近美國已經買到他10%了跟美國能源合作這一塊我們有在研擬也在研擬那我就想要請教你嘛央行都提出具體主張那我請問一下經濟部對於這種現象有沒有什麼具體主張嘛尤其是你要退休我在問你這個實在沒有意思啊但是你現在還是官員啊"},{"start":4154.927,"end":4167.413,"text":"跟委員報告那個尤其是那個應該是4月份的有什麼具體做法嗎你怎麼不跟他要告訴我說1月20號上任再來說5月份的那個美國USA我們會擴大"},{"start":4170.174,"end":4173.699,"text":"整個投資團會過去具體一點擴大投資團會是什麼擴大你就是等於要買美國的東西買更多一點那這個是除了有購買有投資之外這個是尤其是ICT產業或電動車產業怎麼在美國跟美墨之間"},{"start":4187.296,"end":4204.097,"text":"怎麼去做一個投資你投資設廠當然就不用算出口的金額這是救地的方式好方式就是減除我們這個貿易順差的數字這個我理解但是問題是你直接跟美國買的部分他還比較開心一點你可以跟他買什麼"},{"start":4205.285,"end":4234.629,"text":"武器不是你管的嘛 農業不是你管的嘛經濟部你管的可以管什麼嘛 能源我們有在研議啦能源 我剛剛說的啊 天然氣能不能透露一下除了本席說的以外的東西 還有沒有其他的嘛天然氣在我們整個能源政策的佔比是佔50% 天然氣當然重要啊買這個本來就符合我們能源政策 你還有沒有其他的方式我問了這麼久了目前沒有都沒有 目前都沒有"},{"start":4236.24,"end":4257.564,"text":"目前都沒有我建議喔 那個次長 退休之前跟部長講一下啦我知道部長很忙啦 這個問題是最重要的啦我們很有可能會被鎖定啦 謝謝好 謝謝郭國務委員來 次長 兩位次長先回座消費諮詢消費諮詢取政天才為"},{"start":4276.508,"end":4299.815,"text":"主席 國務委員有請次長還有國發會的副主委應該是連次長了國發會的高副主委兩位好這今天產業創新條例的修正行政院版本有特別提到這個"},{"start":4302.273,"end":4328.538,"text":"第十條之一新增人工智慧及節能減碳項目人工智慧的部分如果今天未來三讀通過修正條文人工智慧這四個字會是在產業創新條例是第一個法例有人工智慧這個用詞"},{"start":4330.202,"end":4356.068,"text":"那這個國科會國科會在113年7月15日依告這個人工智慧基本法的草案這依告從去年的7月15日依告60天後來並沒有送到行政院行政院也還沒有送到立法院"},{"start":4357.304,"end":4383.809,"text":"所以在這個人工智慧基本法裡面當然有這個人工智慧的定義那我們現在這個產業創新條例沒有定義所以這個是一個需要考量的部分那為什麼這個人工智慧基本法預告然後沒有送行政院我不知道有沒有審查我不清楚至少沒有送到立法院"},{"start":4386.087,"end":4407.875,"text":"台灣人權促進會特別針對這個人工智慧基本法的草案發表了一篇文章而且是在這個預告之前預告之前就提出了這樣的一個疑慮有很多的疑慮但我只是摘入了部分的這個"},{"start":4411.991,"end":4439.716,"text":"針對台灣人潛出境會針對人工智慧基本法所關心的是不是因為這個所以後來沒有沒有這個行政沒有送來我不清楚我要說的是說因為今天並沒有這個國科會的這個官員在這邊所以國發會或是經濟部對於人工智慧把納入進去基本上"},{"start":4442.435,"end":4468.934,"text":"因為你們是我們是要擴大增加他的項目然後要給他一些相關的這些協助這些當然這個部分是我們的法律沒有跟上事實上這個人工智慧在相關的這些推動上都在做這個國安會你知道你們有相關人工智慧的法規嗎"},{"start":4471.958,"end":4479.004,"text":"跟我們報告,我想人工智慧是五大信賴產業之一,那當然就基本法的話,我們沒有,基本上這個,有,我告訴你,有,有,也是一,產業創新條例,第九條第二項,"},{"start":4493.218,"end":4515.464,"text":"授權裡面定的那個辦法那個辦法裡面有提到你們法規名稱就有提到人工智慧我想人工智慧是一個名詞它可以出現在不同的法律裡面那剛才委員問的是說人工智慧的法規法律是第一個人工智慧基本法應該是第一個法規裡面你們是第一個"},{"start":4516.604,"end":4544.421,"text":"好這個我只不過是把這個讓你們去了解是說當我們立法院審查這個法案條文這個法務部也提供相關的資訊看看或者是說在審查之前你們去跟那個國會了解一下到底問題出在哪裡這樣好不好這樣我們對這個法律的審查會有所幫助這是一個部分好這個"},{"start":4547.965,"end":4573.817,"text":"這裡面這次的條文的修正又增加自然語言對不對自然語言如果只有寫自然語言我不知道原來這個經濟部修正這個產業創新條例把自然語言放進去到底是全世界的自然語言呢還是只有台灣的自然語言"},{"start":4576.873,"end":4597.93,"text":"因為只有寫自然語言四個字跟我們報告這個自然語言跟這個的自然語言是不一樣是我們人工智慧的專有名詞在用的因為他們有通用的那個Code或是那個程式所以跟這個我們現在講的這個語言發展法這個是不是說英文中文或是說是全世界的自然語言就對了"},{"start":4599.331,"end":4622.067,"text":"對 當然是通用型的那個電工智慧的技術上的專業也給法務部提供看怎麼樣去考量這個部分因為自然語言我們法律有啊 對不對我們自己國家的法律有自然語言的定義喔我只是沒有列進去而已啊我們把它弄得清楚一點因為你只有寫自然語言到底是哪個範圍是這樣 好不好"},{"start":4626.888,"end":4631.718,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天才委員請回座下一位質詢請謝英鳳委員"},{"start":4648.711,"end":4656.251,"text":"謝謝主席 我想要請連次長跟我們高副主委經濟部連次長 國會高副主委"},{"start":4662.048,"end":4683.578,"text":"我想請問一下就是去年他台電停掉了桃園以北就是5MW以上的資料中心的申請因為用電不要那個南電北送的緣故嘛那未來威達如果設總部在台北的時候這個怎麼處理"},{"start":4684.813,"end":4693.918,"text":"那個台電不是說要停掉那個是說要因地制宜然後要去做一些對啊他就說什麼才要要求說是不是說地方政府如果你真的產業要發展要用電的時候也可以支持說在地的有一些電源的設置啊"},{"start":4704.352,"end":4726.15,"text":"所以如果威達總部要設在台北用電是沒有問題嗎我們會充分供應會充分供應嗎但是你們就算沒有威達那在台北地區的用電的供需目前是高達了200億度的這個gap"},{"start":4729.913,"end":4756.679,"text":"對不對 有這樣子的差距耶這怎麼解決所以這個要透過電容的一個調度啦要怎麼調度那個我請台電說明一下發國委員 那個北部現在整體來講它確實供電的是小於需求啦就用電端的是比較大所以如果要解決要兩個一個就是北部要區域的平衡其實電源在北部要增加是不是要用核電"},{"start":4759.431,"end":4776.684,"text":"核電還是要考慮到那幾個問題是不是要用核電核電其實委員也知道其實就是法令要更改然後再來就是核安的因為你有研發中心又有總部未來在沙崙還要設置那個什麼還要設置超維那未來整體台灣的用電是不是要用核電"},{"start":4785.7,"end":4801.19,"text":"核電的問題還是跟委員報告就是要解決一個法令一個是核能安全還有現在核配料的處理以及全民的共識那現在目前來看整個台灣來講它全部全島的電其實是足夠的是沒問題"},{"start":4802.151,"end":4824.833,"text":"所以委員剛才提到如果北部現在區域的這個限制的話他就是必須要靠中南部的電送上來他確實是有電網上的限制所以台電為什麼要去做防任的計畫就是希望能夠強化這個電網的韌性這樣子讓能夠北送的還有加上北部區域電網的增加讓北部的電未來會越來越穩當這樣市長要不要核對"},{"start":4827.98,"end":4833.466,"text":"反正你都要退休了你可以講啊 你可以講實話啊這個核電還叫做依法行政啦因為現在法令是這樣規定再來就剛才講的那200億度的這個gap他去怎麼處理"},{"start":4843.124,"end":4863.322,"text":"這個就是剛才我們副總講的就是要透過整個電網的潤性然後來調度還有增加區域性的一個電源這樣來區域性的電源怎麼增加那因為現在我們在談那個市街嘛那這個東西也希望說大家能夠來支持還有啊他說要一萬坪以上的土地對不對"},{"start":4863.993,"end":4873.323,"text":"那土地這個當然就是要看所有的台灣的土地你最清楚啦可以做工業園區可以做產業園區的土地你最清楚啊台北哪裡有"},{"start":4874.903,"end":4896.736,"text":"南港?還是什麼?一濱?一濱可以嗎?不夠?還是可以往上發展?因為它有它的設廠的一個設置的條件對啊,一濱可以往上發展啊,是不是?也不一定,反正只是總部而已啊,對不對?不一定需要很大的基地啊,是不是?一濱有沒有辦法?"},{"start":4899.909,"end":4925.26,"text":"因為我沒辦法幫他 還是新北這個還是由公司自己來宣布好 那我們請那個副主委 高副主委喔那個如果啊 就是相關的這些 威達啦 超委啦等等的事的那我們估計 就只有威達而言他就需要2500位的員工那對於這個徵才部分呢"},{"start":4926.161,"end":4942.499,"text":"怎麼樣處理我們台灣大專院校的STEM的人才的培養那有沒有辦法支應這2500位威達喔 這威達就2500位喔那其他的呢 超維或者是台積電等等高科技產業"},{"start":4943.761,"end":4963.317,"text":"跟委員報告 其實我們吸引這些國際大廠來台灣設廠其實我們都有同步要求他一定要把招攬他國外的人才的一定的比重我們有要求第二個我們會要求他要訓練附帶訓練我們國內的相關的科技的人才"},{"start":4964.197,"end":4981.295,"text":"然後當然我們也認為其實如果我們當然他某個程度上會排擠我們國內的其他的大廠的人才來運用可是我們會覺得說如果其實這些國際大廠來的話也有助於訓練我們具有國際性的科技人才的效應啦"},{"start":4982.096,"end":5001.683,"text":"那委員也知道現在我們全力的做纜柴包括我們在東南亞我們很多這種產學專班就是那個應該新型專班其實就是吸引東南亞就是大概是前800大全球前800大的學校就是他們全力纜柴然後需要他來他也帶人才進來然後同時訓練本國的科技人才"},{"start":5009.266,"end":5025.077,"text":"也就是說我們還是儘量採多管齊下的方式來從實兼顧科技大廠可以來台我們人才也不會流失的相關的問題那他大概會做他大概會帶多少的國外人才進來25%就是2500位的25%"},{"start":5032.242,"end":5054.455,"text":"那其他的部分就由就是東南亞的或者是我們國內的高科技人才的相關的培訓也要求他要同時提供他訓練我們本國人才的一些相關的規劃我們都有很多方面去要求他好 謝謝 趙偉再給我一分鐘最後問我們李企華次長謝謝李次長"},{"start":5059.919,"end":5071.023,"text":"市長 財政部對於我們產創的相關的這是租稅的優惠我們既然要協助產業也要扶植我們國內的相關的產業因應國際的情勢"},{"start":5074.504,"end":5085.433,"text":"為什麼你們都是很保守的就是說抵抗然後好像不積極你看到嗎過去我們在就是說我們對於這個降稅就是當沖降稅有沒有我們看到了我們增加了降稅反而增加了超多的稅收是不是為國家增加超多的稅收而且讓大型的頭顧跟金控在做他們相關的槓桿的時候這就是他們的啊當然"},{"start":5103.326,"end":5122.359,"text":"我們要避免小型的投資人不需要給他們過度的使用當沖造成他們的投資的風險這個部分我們到底財政部有沒有辦法相關的控管對於產業的租稅優惠有沒有辦法提供"},{"start":5123.3,"end":5148.893,"text":"報告委員其實我們這次是積極的配合經濟部研議這個提供租稅優惠的措施這點其實財政部是在行政院討論過程當中我們都是充分支持的所以你們會充分支持嗎對你們不會再過度的保守行政院這個版本就是我們兩個部會大家在行政院充分討論的結果大家提出來一個共識對好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝委員請回座消費資源請張啟導人"},{"start":5174.454,"end":5189.419,"text":"請聯視長請金吾聯視長委員好市長 要過年了讓大家好好過年一下最近傳那個水電都要漲這個你們有明確講不會嗎"},{"start":5192.216,"end":5221.099,"text":"有確定喔有確定過年不會去啦過年也不能隨便去喔那個一定要經過一個審慎的一個評估完之後經過兩個審議委員會去通訪去檢討過年已經不會去過年也不能隨便去好不好要讓大家好過年我講 只要尤其是電啦只要電一漲那個萬物起漲過去三年已經漲了五次了人民真的太苦了好不好想辦法不要想辦法不要漲所以今天啊"},{"start":5222.452,"end":5250.503,"text":"你要退休了我們這位來想我們一起來找不要漲電價的方法好這位來催這位來催我幫你找到一個很重要的蔡英文啦蔡英文總統他有提到電價在十年內不會大漲他講了三個理由來看看他講啊地雷只要落實節能就是省電啦使用效率增加了就不需要多繳電費啊"},{"start":5253.866,"end":5271.751,"text":"這個你們做了嗎這個落實我們現在推深度節能已經深度節能齁省多少電等一下給我一個報告我們今年從八月到現在這樣齁我們省了差不多將11億好 市長你退休錢給我你們省了多少電齁等一下他說啦你2000階段啦價格雖然是高但是說"},{"start":5272.745,"end":5289.717,"text":"它是2016年說的 但是它說兩個重點它說只要科技是會進步的規模擴大以後 成本自然就下降了奇怪喔 科技真的有進步啊 對不對你們買綠電 規模會擴大啦可是價格沒有漲 來我給你看一下來我統計啊 為民國100年 110年到115年 來給你看一下"},{"start":5299.144,"end":5303.086,"text":"再生能源這個過電的這個價格110年90.79那時候平均單價就是多少4.69到113你看看你那時候價格從4.6反而跳到5.46你買這個綠電的這個錢從426億到113年跳到1311億跟蔡英文講的完全不一樣"},{"start":5328.987,"end":5351.084,"text":"市長 第一 科技有進步嘛 對不對第一 量確實有 像蔡英文講的你們買的量是有增加嘛 對不對可是價格一直在漲啊這出什麼事情因為這個後來是因為那個前面是光電後面是離岸風電所以兩個是不太一樣的所以第一 人民看到這是弊案嘛"},{"start":5352.213,"end":5366.344,"text":"第二個就是你們整個設計上為什麼會越來越高沒有達到他做的嘛第三個他要講的一個理由他說未來會修改電力法讓廠跟網提高並且提高台電的經營績效讓電價更為合理這個你們沒有做吧沒有做對不對"},{"start":5372.681,"end":5399.484,"text":"因為現在我們有提一個那個電力法要來修正因為整個經濟情況改變還有能源結構改變喔所以你看蔡英文以前說電不會大漲啊對不對啊你們就是三點看起來第一點可能做了一部分可是做的也不夠啦你想古年水電費中央政府的開配十億今年變成一百億啊你哪有省電對不對所以看起來三個都跳票喔"},{"start":5400.473,"end":5426.66,"text":"所以你要去想辦法去把這三個第三個可能你們已經做不到的你們又要修法又要倒貼入啊可是你要去想一想當初為什麼當總統的會提出這樣一個讓電不要漲的可以參考嘛好不好好來我們再繼續來想辦法我相信經濟部跟台電一定做了很多改善的報告對不對我問你一下從2016年到現在"},{"start":5429.379,"end":5432.167,"text":"台電有幾年它的稅務盈虧啊是呈現虧損的一百"},{"start":5436.328,"end":5460.022,"text":"216年開始 幾乎每年都虧損對不對剛開始2016可能要好一點點 後來動越來越大巴委員其實在俄烏戰爭之前 台電還是有營餘的所以烏俄戰爭之前是有營餘的嘛那後來我們也三度撥普 讓你漲的電價該漲的啊到今天還在虧 其實不是烏俄戰爭啦就是基本上 我相信台灣人民所有人都知道第一就是你從最廉價"},{"start":5461.926,"end":5489.545,"text":"你核能不用嘛第二你去買綠電的時候買得太貴跟一幣按嘛現在的事這個等下大漏洞把它補起來你就會賺錢了啦好來 第一個進一步問台電為2016年開始寫過幾次改善公司體質還有營運績效的有關報告這個大院這邊都有要求啦這個可能要回去查幾次這邊可能有一百塊有了嘛第三點其實很重要你寫了一百次以上的報告"},{"start":5490.697,"end":5510.728,"text":"你主要的改善項目是哪些?有哪些是重複的?看旁邊有哪些是有改善的?有具體成效其實你只要從裡面去你以前提出來的計畫真的有改善有績效你就不瞭解啊你怎麼從敗家子變成金雞母變敗家子又上不來對不對好所以今天我明確的要求請台電請台電"},{"start":5516.598,"end":5541.136,"text":"提出一個全面性具體的改革計畫書,其實沒困難的,我剛才說那幾點啦你從106年到現在,最重要的一百次,去把以前真正你覺得你要做沒有做的,或者是你做的有績效的,把它整理出來,好不好?你當初世界金融風暴的時候,那時候美國聯準會說過一句話,他說像花旗銀行一樣,大大不能倒的公司,台電也是一樣,大大不能倒的"},{"start":5542.691,"end":5559.423,"text":"我們會給你 我們可以救你一次可是不能夠給你再犯的機會我們人民跟立法院已經給台電多少次的機會了至少撥補三次了嘛 三千億了啦你現在還要拿一千億不算啦 不算啦台灣民眾黨做了決定不會有這一千億了好 更重要的"},{"start":5560.242,"end":5587.912,"text":"所以不只要提出一個通盤檢討我們在談進一步談怎麼避免虧損再次出現現在發電輸電配電跟售電的這個四大部門請每個部門四大部門都把它列出來第一個當前的虧損情況是怎麼樣子那你要去追第二個虧損的原因第三個你未來疫情虧損會在什麼地方第四個基於整個能源開始在轉型你有開始做一些重大建設嘛你的影響是什麼這四個另外"},{"start":5588.872,"end":5608.841,"text":"在這個四大部分裡面要分別針對目前的虧損年齡跟未來可能虧損要擬定一個對策出來拿一個具體改善的這個里程碑包括什麼台電你本身的本身還有供給面需求面跟市場面四個面向要做一個檢討另外最好相關的報告跟做法請三個月內好不好好"},{"start":5610.44,"end":5610.961,"text":"送到立法院來"},{"start":5640.56,"end":5663.908,"text":"從一個金雞母不英帥的模範生被每年都要去撥補要漲價人已經是民念非常深的希望你最後還有機會人在公民老休閒多幫他們台電的員工們我知道台電那邊都是辛苦的水準也是高的好不好我們會給你掌聲跟支持可是我剛剛講的我剛剛提的都是非常具體的好不好好 謝謝我們這兩部分包括不要再虧損還有整個計畫"},{"start":5666.369,"end":5677.072,"text":"三個月內要給我 好不好那這位農業 希望又回到以後的模範生是經濟模不要再一直只有撥寶跟浪費這個一直在漲電價謝謝 謝謝 感謝模範生可以講三分鐘模範中的模範好 謝謝下位質詢請振振請回"},{"start":5698.113,"end":5700.101,"text":"謝主席我想請向我們經濟部常務市長連錦章連市長"},{"start":5710.268,"end":5729.53,"text":"次長我特別珍惜跟你在經濟委員會 詢問對話的一個機會那我想說 因為我們今天是針對那個產創條例的一個修正案所以我這邊大概有三個點針對這次我們產創條例要修正的三個點我特別把它給列出來 一個是十之一條的部分"},{"start":5729.93,"end":5746.055,"text":"一個是23-1條一個23-2條的部分那針對10-1條這邊的部分的時候因為我們這一次的運版當中很清楚的把AI智慧產品或服務然後節能檢查的相關的全新硬體軟體技術服務都把它給包含在這裡頭"},{"start":5747.475,"end":5767.472,"text":"那我在想說剛剛其實好多好多委員也都特別提到電的一個問題所以我在這邊的時候事實上我本席在這一次的一個傳統條例修正當中我也提出了我自己的一個版本就是我希望說能夠把創新的發電設備跟儲能設備也納在這一次十之一條當中你覺得這樣可不可行"},{"start":5768.252,"end":5784.988,"text":"因為我們現在母法有把那個節能減淡那剛才講那個儲能跟創新這個都是在執法裡面我們可以來做一些檢討的所以可以在執法當中把它納入嘛對不對因為母法沒辦法寫得涵蓋一點不會沒辦法寫到那麼多所以在執法當中的時候會很明確的把我們那個發電"},{"start":5787.631,"end":5797.823,"text":"創新發電的設備跟那個充電設備都把它納入進去因為我們要考慮到整個技術的一個情況還有整個技術可是在執法當中會把這兩個領域把它納入對不對我們來討論OK那這個部分沒問題因為我在想說"},{"start":5802.449,"end":5828.606,"text":"不管是在產算條例當中或是執法當中的時候把它納入去只要實務上面可運作那本席其實也會支持那在這邊針對這10支一條的部分那麼針對23支一條部分的時候呢我們目前是把現銀3億降到1.5億啦那其實創投工會他們對這部分呢他們覺得說目前整個產業變動非常的迅速創投工會他們直接提出一個狀態希望能夠下修到5000萬"},{"start":5830.807,"end":5849.878,"text":"然後原本我們這邊把30%修到50%他們希望能夠維持原本的30%那針對這兩個數據的部分的時候次長這邊有沒有具體的一個回應因為我們這一次也是經過好幾次的一個討論才從三立調到那因為其實這個東西還是要有一定的"},{"start":5850.518,"end":5858.463,"text":"如果說你說太小的你說去投資應該效益不是那麼高所以說我們還是考慮到一些效益上的一個問題因為門檻你降得太低誰都進來的話我覺得這個東西其實有失我們要把這個資金引到主要產業要去投資的那個目的所以希望說資金引到主要產業當中去所以你們認為如果5000萬的規模當中的時候可能不是你們想要引進去的一個方向"},{"start":5880.618,"end":5903.473,"text":"理解這部分本席這邊也尊重不過我覺得創投工業他們所提出來的一個方向我覺得也是很值得去思考的一個部分那針對23-2條這個部分的時候本席要特別提出一個狀態因為事實上我們在經濟部有訂定一個具創新能力之新創事業認定原則當中的時候提到多次"},{"start":5904.454,"end":5931.662,"text":"就是我們新創產業的時間都是以8年為一個限度可是為什麼我們在這個產創條例當中的時候還是以5年為一個限度可不可以請次長這邊做個回應我們是有參考因為那時候是有提到8年啦那本來是3年2年3年後來5年我們修到5年那這個是參考國科會目前在做新創的一些相關規定那8年的話因為5年差不多一般投資差不多都到成熟期了啦"},{"start":5932.122,"end":5949.273,"text":"那後面三年我們後來就沒有去做調整但是因為我們裡面又增加了一項就是說如果你投資的話我們投資一些我們目前講的國家重要策略性產業的話我們可以把那個低減的額度提高到五百萬等於是相對在那一邊去做了一點調整"},{"start":5950.174,"end":5975.894,"text":"理解 不過因為我在想說既然經濟部本身就有訂定據創新能力的新創事業認定原則很清楚是以八年為標準的時候那麼我們也希望因為如果說我們常常條例也能夠一起符合這八年那個狀態我覺得搞不好會更一致啦好不好那這當然你他提到說行政院這邊有另外一個國發會這邊有一個針對新創產業的一個投資的部分他有另外一個標準"},{"start":5977.489,"end":5995.8,"text":"就是那個創業天使基金創業天使基金那邊它有另外一個標準的一個狀態本席理解這個狀態不過我想說既然經濟部本身就有一個原則的時候我們希望能夠一致 好不好然後另外我這邊也要特別提到一個狀態因為在112年的時候就是2023年的時候我們那時候有針對產創條例有休時之二"},{"start":5998.381,"end":6017.721,"text":"當時大家都覺得這就是所謂的台版晶片法那麼覺得在台版晶片法當中的時候就被認為是租稅獎勵被稱為史上最大所以當時很多主要的公司包括在新竹的聯發科就被認為其實會非常的適用會從這一次當台版晶片法當中得到很大的一個獲益結果"},{"start":6020.143,"end":6033.744,"text":"開始推動之後臺積那個聯發科他們也表示說他們其實並沒有得到任何的一個那個租稅的一個優惠那其中一個狀態因為我們產創條例基本上都是在"},{"start":6034.764,"end":6051.624,"text":"支持給那個硬體投資的一個優惠或者是一個軟體設備的一個優惠對於整個人力的一個投資的部分其實沒有特別的優惠那對於聯發科這樣子的一個IC晶片公司來講一個全球級的IC晶片公司來講的時候他們很多的"},{"start":6052.745,"end":6067.001,"text":"投入都是在能力的一個部分所以針對這個部分的時候我們是不是在整個產發條例當中會有所調整未來對整個產發條例當中的一個投資的方向不僅限於硬體或者是資訊軟體的領域"},{"start":6068.991,"end":6086.183,"text":"當然這個可以檢討但是因為現在有關人賠這部分就列為費用再處理那另外一個就是政府也有一些相對的補助措施都已經是一半所以這樣的話如果是在重複在租稅優惠這邊是有點像重複去做一些補助"},{"start":6087.063,"end":6106.325,"text":"不過因為事實上我們看到美國他們商務部他們跟整個國家科學基金會NSF他們在合作整個半導體人力的一個投入的一個部分那美國商務部就像我們經濟部這邊的一個角色一樣所以我們想經濟部在這個部分也能夠大力的去支持在人才培訓這部分我們有大力在支持"},{"start":6106.806,"end":6128.715,"text":"那我最後提一個狀態因為現在全球都在爭取國際的一個勞動力那我們看到107年的時候我們有一個企業及法人申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習要點當中只給六個月那這實習六個月來說對於整個的成效基本上來說是不太夠的我們有沒有可能把它延展到一年"},{"start":6130.681,"end":6152.216,"text":"這個因為我們可能還要再來跟相關單位因為現在全球都在爭取國際勞動力那韓國跟日本他們也都在不斷的調整而且提高很多的一個很高的一個薪水所以我覺得台灣如果要滿足足夠的勞動力在這個部分可能也必須要一起進行修正好不好我們再來跟勞動部協調一下OK 好 謝謝謝謝 請回座"},{"start":6156.161,"end":6173.554,"text":"這個我們在楊瓊英委員質詢完之後 我們會休息下位質詢請李玉玲委員謝謝主席 請連次長請經濟部的連次長"},{"start":6182.239,"end":6198.455,"text":"市長您辛苦了也即將要退休在這邊先恭喜你至少現在可以過個好年今天我們經濟部特別排審了這個產創條例做個修正那我們看到我們現在的產創條例是時間這個優惠這個稅金這個部分的話我們是2024年的12月嘛到2020年12月現在要"},{"start":6206.443,"end":6229.869,"text":"要延長到2029年 延長了5年的時間那當然我們要和其他增加一些項目包括人工智慧跟節能減碳部分但是這個上限的話 我們是從10億提高到18億的這個金額那對於我們整個投資 國外的投資的話這管理機制就是要加強了整個配套都要加強了那所以我們直接進入主題 我們的產創條例的"},{"start":6231.789,"end":6257.134,"text":"這個整個修正本席看了行政院的版本之後的話在22條之一啊特別看到我們投資的特定國家地區還有特定的產業這技術還有一定的投資金額這個部分完全沒有明確規範出來在我們的母法裡面並沒有看到那這樣子的話產業如果去依循你們的規定那如果是不小心觸犯了這個界限的話那又被重罰"},{"start":6257.714,"end":6261.521,"text":"那這部分我們有沒有廣大的這個擴充這個整個意見的話來做一個統整的執法出來"},{"start":6264.782,"end":6291.168,"text":"跟委員報告我們在修正草案的22條第5項我們把特定地區還有特定的產業技術還有一定的金額我們都授權在執法裡面來明定執法定了嗎執法依照規定行政院現在規定是要在母法修正以後六個月之內所以說六個月我們一定要完成所以你趕快要跟哪個國家可以去投資哪個區域不能去或者是金額的上限甚至最重要的技術問題關鍵技術還是要流到台灣"},{"start":6294.489,"end":6306.6,"text":"這個很重要的我們也會再跟外界好好再溝通一下是 所以這個都要整個配套說到大家的意見都有共識之後把執法整個細則執行細則規範通通都要出來要趕快出來要不然的話我們產業界沒有依循的一個方向的話很容易讓你們經濟部羅織了產業的罪名"},{"start":6315.128,"end":6342.138,"text":"那這個就不好了那另外還在22條之四的部分的話產商條例裡面有講到在如果說會影響國家的安全或者是我們的經濟有影響到的話我國經濟影響到的話這個重大清潔的話你就要求產業要撤資回來那請問什麼是重大清潔你們重大清潔是什麼情形完全沒有定義沒有出來啊"},{"start":6343.171,"end":6350.035,"text":"跟文包 如果說廠商對外投資有影響到國安或者是說對經濟有不利影響怎麼樣才影響到國安這個就要配套因應出來啊還是今天修正過來六個月再提出來六個月時間是非常長"},{"start":6361.002,"end":6375.439,"text":"那所有產業要到國外去投資他一定會殺盤推演市場評估通通會出來那你這樣子講的話重大情節就是你們可以任意的羅織罪名了不會"},{"start":6376.039,"end":6399.619,"text":"那個測試一定是最後的手段啦我們一定是會再符合比例原則跟最後手段性的這一方面可不可以定義出來 更明顯然後其他國家其實也都有相同的規定譬如說像美國他們最近的那個1月2號施行的譬如他的重大清潔是什麼重大清潔他們也有相關的測試的規定啦對 有測試的規定我知道可是重大清潔的規範在哪裡那明顯一點 那個產業不是要走越線的地方嗎我們條文裡面喔"},{"start":6403.582,"end":6420.793,"text":"要核准的 所以有一些要審查的標準 譬如說影響整個國家安全或國家經濟發展有不利或是說像跟一些國際的一些條約相關的這些都知道 我覺得還是要更加明確要更加的明確啦 好不好那我們到時候我們會很明確那產業要依循的去規範 好不好"},{"start":6425.195,"end":6451.158,"text":"那接下來我想請教的就是說川普在1月20號他就要上任了他的主張是要增加關稅的部分我相信經濟部應該是嚴正以待也就應該有配套的措施看怎麼樣協助產業那尤其是我們國家是出口導向的而且我們的出口值年年增加到現在的1113億的這個美元所以如果說川普關稅要提高到10%到20%的話"},{"start":6453.319,"end":6473.674,"text":"這個會影響整個產業但是我們看到我們經濟部的講法是說你會協助他們可以如果說以在美國的產業的話為出口的話那你們會協助他到國外去投資那我們的企業產業不是完全出走了嗎我們的關鍵技術能夠跟流台灣嗎這都非常重要的"},{"start":6474.514,"end":6496.742,"text":"所以林市長這方面的話你們有沒有因應的措施跟我們報告有分兩個面向來講第一個就是我們出口過去大部分是中間原材料中間原料其實對美國在發展是有利的這一塊我們也會再來跟美國再協調第二個就剛才講的是說會把在美墨邊境的這些因為他們當時是因為這些品牌商要求在美墨邊境去增加"},{"start":6497.222,"end":6525.864,"text":"投资像ICT产业自动性产业跟这些电动车产业那这些东西它怎么从墨西哥这边再往美国的边境这边来可是我们以美国出口的话大概都是机械用具跟电机的设备尤其是半导体为主那如果就是产业大量外移的话那人才也会跟着外流你就看台积电好了多少人才工程师出去所以我们国国的半导体这个产业这个优势我担心的是恐怕会被美国来掏空啊"},{"start":6526.609,"end":6554.145,"text":"這個我們會嚴密的去監控你怎麼嚴密監控呢所以現在我們看到很多重要產業不只是半導體方面所以我們希望我們整個產業的人才問題還有我們所制定的規範問題這個投資的方向各項我們都要嚴正以待而且一定要有共識做一個明確的定義好不好才不會讓我們人才外流保護我們的產業讓我們的經濟不受影響好 謝謝"},{"start":6557.182,"end":6558.423,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請經濟部臨時長進入臨時長"},{"start":6583.952,"end":6605.125,"text":"委員長市長好今天談這個產業創新條例那剛剛這個剛好上一位這個呂友也有提到剛好也是我想要就教在這個連市長的我們這次這一個產業創新條例有一個重要的主軸就是提供事業投資智慧機械5G減人減碳這些租稅減免這是一項"},{"start":6606.035,"end":6634.215,"text":"另外一項呢我也認為說我們這個修法也具備了國安還有社會安全的意識就是在這一個22條那我看一下你們的22條裡面你們有提到說為保護關鍵的技術還有維持這個產業競爭力所以呢你們有做一個修正從事國外投資於特定國家或地區特定產業或技術或達一定金額以上情形者應事前向中央主管機關申請核准"},{"start":6634.835,"end":6652.196,"text":"那有這一個沒有申請核准實行投資者會處罰借其為改正停止或借其為改正或停止或撤回投資都有啦那一樣請教一下因為我認為說這一點寫的明確是非常重要的"},{"start":6652.717,"end":6673.97,"text":"因為我們既然有這個產業創新條例我們鼓勵企業來投資但是有一些具有這個關鍵性的一些產業或是技術你就沒辦法讓它流到特定的國家或地區尤其是對台灣有敵對有敵意的國家或地區嘛那這一點能不能請次長再說清楚一點"},{"start":6675.134,"end":6703.382,"text":"就是這個投資於特定的國家或地區是指怎樣的國家或地區比如說是指中國嗎還是指哪裡因為我們現在我們現在是其實我們現在主要是在恢弘供應鏈的方式去著手啦那尤其是有一些我們的先進的技術我們絕對不能留到跟我們有一些相關的一些一些對我們不友善的國家而且這些先進的技術我們剛才講也要跟國際的一些規範要去做接軌"},{"start":6704.182,"end":6727.906,"text":"對啊 就是現在美國尤其川普總統他已對於一些關鍵的技術 高階的晶片就是沒有人留下美國去嘛那我說請教一下這些特定的國家跟地區有沒有包含中國因為兩岸條例有在做一些規範所以我們這個會另外在跟兩岸條例那邊去做一些切割那你們這22條的規範是怎麼樣"},{"start":6732.749,"end":6760.964,"text":"各位報告特定地區我們目前最主要考量是有關於在戰略性高科技貨品管制出口的一些地區包括伊朗 伊拉克等等還有有關於聯合國對於特定國家制裁的一些管制令譬如說像北韓這些國好 那中國呢關於對中國附大陸投資的部分我們依照兩岸條例35條我們另外有訂一個附大陸投資的一個許可辦法"},{"start":6762.543,"end":6788.577,"text":"那都有相關的規定那所以這一條跟你剛才講的這一個兩岸投資條例會搭在一起是會搭在一起還是那這個附大陸投資的部分要優先適用搭在一起還是我看你搖頭搭在一起還是怎麼樣不同的規範不同的規範市長講搭在一起的意思是什麼就是說兩邊會一起看嘛如果你要走兩岸的就是兩岸這邊來處理嘛那其他非兩岸的就是這邊再來處理"},{"start":6790.295,"end":6818.437,"text":"那兩岸規範有比你這個更嚴格嗎?有有有 更嚴格更嚴格好 更嚴格好 那請教一下這個現在在審查這個中央政府的總預算那下午也會針對這個追加預算來做協商那有關於這個台電有兩筆一筆是這個今年度的應該算去年度的追加預算1000億另外一個是今年度的這個在總預算裡面的1000億"},{"start":6819.998,"end":6834.347,"text":"那這個1000億這個追加預算朝野協商我認為大概很難過因為現在朝野協商都是過水那現在這個不論是國民黨或是自衛黨都說了這個追加預算不會讓你們過1000億不會讓你們過"},{"start":6836.343,"end":6865.415,"text":"那另外一個呢這個還在今年的這個預算裡面的一千億我剛聽了這個民眾黨的說法他們的提案全數都刪除那等於是說這個看你們這個我看了一下有九個針對台電的這個今年的這個一千億的預算九個提案裡面有五個說要全部都刪除那次長你怎麼看如果這追加預算一千億也沒有了今年度的這一千億也沒有了等於是兩千億都沒有了那台電怎麼辦"},{"start":6866.633,"end":6893.708,"text":"這我們還是希望大家能夠支持這個我跟你講就不可能了我現在可以跟你斷言不可能了朝野前上不會讓你過那現在朝小野大嘛 他們已經講白了 藍白就講白了這一千億今年度也不會讓你過等於是兩千億就沒了你怎麼辦 你要用最壞的方式去想啦你不要再講說我還希望說這個在野黨能夠通過沒有啦 他們兼幣親野就不會讓你過了啦不要存有這種幻想了"},{"start":6894.619,"end":6913.987,"text":"那這我們內部會好好再來思考一下這個還要再思考尤其是那個剛剛那個那個那個委員有提到說那個台電怎麼也要人家早就剛剛思考好了啦因為這個這應該在你們沙盤推演裡面兩千億沒有了會怎麼辦第一個電費會不會調漲嗎第二個要舉債嗎"},{"start":6917.418,"end":6932.067,"text":"這個都是一個方向但是電費調漲因為事關重大再來舉債台電也舉債的差不多了所以這一塊我們如果真的是碰到這個狀況我們會審視的去審密的去思考看後續要怎麼來進行那怎麼辦 台電會不會打"},{"start":6934.104,"end":6948.816,"text":"台電我們不可能讓他倒啦台電不可能讓他倒你們那個財務的這個改善的計畫有出來是不是有有有有出來了那給本席一份那這個改善這個改善報告出來這個你們要怎麼去做改善"},{"start":6950.3,"end":6973.068,"text":"裡面我們有一部分例如是從燃料那一邊也有去做一些調整燃料你們說會降嗎我們是預期說如果是川普上來的話他針對這一塊是不是有降的空間再來就是有一些整個行政效率上去調整還有一些資產的一些重複這一部分再來做沒關係因為主席站起來了這個資料再給我一份好不好好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝李委員蕭偉植議員請楊瓊議員"},{"start":6988.983,"end":6989.624,"text":"謝謝主席 楊瓊發言 邀請次長"},{"start":7000.87,"end":7020.944,"text":"市長好我們針對於今天產業創新條例裡頭因為本席非常非常的關心我們的產業所以因此這個租稅優惠措施是為了要優化我們整個產業結構達到智慧升級轉型並且鼓勵多元性的創新應用"},{"start":7022.665,"end":7050.501,"text":"那原本的智慧優惠條例就在於113年12月31號要屆滿但是我們也考慮到智慧機械的部分我們是可以協助整個產業建立更彈性更高效的一個生產跟服務的優勢所以國內雖然也已經有進步到整個智慧化但是在整個調整結構它必須要較長的時間所以因此"},{"start":7051.201,"end":7065.77,"text":"促進產業投資呢還是有它非常重要的一個必要性所以在這樣情況之下請問次長你是否同意這個創新的這個條例能夠提升我國產業競爭力的關鍵重要"},{"start":7068.172,"end":7078.686,"text":"這個本來就是關鍵重要對那所以請你支持本席的提案也就是第10條之一跟第72條時間延續下來到118年你是不是同意這個是我們的方向"},{"start":7083.092,"end":7107.167,"text":"你們的也是同意所以我們非常高興朝野大家一致我也希望建議主席我們今天在巡打完就趕快加速讓我們的產業可以安心我們能夠今天來出委員會所以因此本校特別提出延長智慧基線跟第五代的行動通訊系統跟資安非常重要跟資安安全產品"},{"start":7107.987,"end":7118.843,"text":"或者是服務投資來抵減租稅的優惠期間來新增人工智慧產品或服務能夠將節能減碳這個項目也能夠來投資抵減的項目"},{"start":7124.63,"end":7137.414,"text":"這個是我們現在在研擬的方向一直要研擬一直要推動所以我們還是有默契我再次強調新增人工智慧產品或服務節能減碳等投資來作為減向的項目對是認同的"},{"start":7140.655,"end":7164.255,"text":"所以我们也希望今天这个寻答完可以直接来处理我们一起加油为我们的产业来加油也请所有的产业在过年的时候能够让他们放心我们一起来支持我们的产业而且让整个产业的智慧优化多元性都能够让他们得到一个安心也就是投资体检的部分呢是最低就是以这个一百万"},{"start":7164.755,"end":7192.543,"text":"以上最高到10億的這個範圍內就個案來做協助我們10億有調到18億了對 所以這個非常重要所以我們一直希望能夠把它提升上來就是100萬一直到18億這個整體性大家來達成一個共識來協助我們的產業好 那接下來本席要請教你水會的問題因為卓院長有說漏水率"},{"start":7193.283,"end":7222.262,"text":"它預計在未來8年要投資807.7億也就是121年我們10年計畫121年漏水率是要降到10%因為本席不斷地在說那我們水這麼寶貴但是你讓它在管子裡面漏掉這個是太可惜了所以我們不斷地在惹勞太管在這樣的情況之下目前所謂的四級制"},{"start":7223.383,"end":7238.544,"text":"但是如果依照目前我們得到的方案是計劃要調整 未來是會調整到7級值那增加200度 1000度以及4000度的級距因為目前為止是10度以下的是7.35"},{"start":7240.339,"end":7258.045,"text":"第二段是11度到30度的是9.45第三段的是31度到50度的這個論舉是11.55第四段是50度以上的是拉到12.07那麼如果說照目前我們得到的訊息是要改制為這個7級"},{"start":7260.126,"end":7266.81,"text":"那麼換句話說漲幅會從25%漲到90%那換句話說平均值從10.7%會拉到15%換句話說漲幅是4成平均值是4成所以請教市長水費真的會漲嗎因為是31年沒漲那院長是說去研究看但是因為這種研究這裡講的都是"},{"start":7286.781,"end":7305.175,"text":"空穴來風空穴來風對對我現在講說漲四成那我們要拜託拜託我們媒體委員我非常感謝你這裡講的說漲四成我先插上你的話我非常感謝你我們的質詢目的就是不要讓民眾憂心我們把事實去還原請說"},{"start":7306.556,"end":7312.958,"text":"你要調整的話你一定要一定是要審慎的去規劃檢討然後再經過審議委員會去討論那這裡外面都講說直接講說要漲到4成這都是外面在預測的不是你的目標還有剛才委員講的說要從幾級怎麼去調"},{"start":7325.202,"end":7337.213,"text":"四級到七級有沒有這回事這個東西都在檢討當中研議中嗎研議中沒有像外界我剛才講空間來說外界直接就把它直接就引到說要漲到多那大家也安心過年了所以本席要請教我們經濟部的態度是什麼會不會漲"},{"start":7343.158,"end":7369.095,"text":"我們省市來研議因為31年沒漲啦我們要來檢討那檢討的時候也要依據當時的整個一個環境情況還有民生物價的一個狀況市長你的確是探求明末因為你要注意現在民眾的日子苦哈哈對對對尤其我們要省慎的去避免因為你的調漲而去影響到物價的高漲這個我們都會考慮到就非常重要你有沒有一個時間點你們研議的時間點多久時間會告訴民眾"},{"start":7373.258,"end":7396.858,"text":"到底那個時間點 請告訴我們民眾我們還是要有所本啊對 請說你的延誼是無限期的延誼還是半年 還是一年他是說水公司要三個月提方案出來三個月提方案當方案提出來不是就可行啊對對對 所以三個月提方案出來我還是再次強調"},{"start":7397.799,"end":7403.884,"text":"你一定要審慎考量不要因為調漲損費引起物價的高漲這一句知識體大我要謝謝你最後一個議題我功課給你再一分鐘給我就好我功課給你 謝謝"},{"start":7417.054,"end":7438.678,"text":"我們媒體報導 經濟部所屬的這個事業機構裡頭 台電 台水 台油 這個台廠中有13號舉辦的全國有兩萬一千人報考 但是第一節的考試只有達到一萬一千兩百三十八人那換句話 錄取率從3.81提升到7.35 因為一半的人幾乎他沒有來考"},{"start":7439.198,"end":7465.181,"text":"那創下了有史以來近三年的新低在這樣的情況之下我們五年來報考的人數越來越少國藝事業單位缺工那我本期非常的希望你們要去檢討你要檢討怎麼樣能夠確保人才的永續有沒有要檢討我們現在也把新進人員的薪資要再往上再提升你把你們確保人才的方案"},{"start":7466.547,"end":7479.276,"text":"眼裡的方案給本行一定要確保人才是不是好謝謝謝謝楊偉來請回座現在休息五分鐘必要時延長兩分鐘"},{"start":7493.646,"end":7498.39,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的食物"},{"start":7515.972,"end":7518.334,"text":"這家也賣給人家吃只有鮮麵吃"},{"start":7540.512,"end":7546.956,"text":"太热了太热了太热了"},{"start":7573.606,"end":7583.049,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李宗盛"},{"start":7626.243,"end":7627.464,"text":"我知道"},{"start":7629.362,"end":7630.903,"text":"這裏有個大廈,這裏有個大廈,這裏有個大廈,這裏有個大廈,"},{"start":7659.471,"end":7661.432,"text":"這裏是一間餐廳。這裏是一間餐廳。"},{"start":7689.409,"end":7692.171,"text":"這張照片是在2012年 當時在新加坡拍攝的"},{"start":7711.846,"end":7725.078,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 李卓人"},{"start":7736.287,"end":7744.034,"text":"這裏有個大廈,這裏有個大廈,這裏有個大廈,"},{"start":7759.958,"end":7760.259,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":7775.57,"end":7777.251,"text":"這裏是大廈的廟宇"},{"start":7793.847,"end":7809.737,"text":"這裏有個大廈,這裏有個大廈,這裏有個大廈,"},{"start":7818.243,"end":7818.263,"text":"嗯。"},{"start":7844.62,"end":7845.54,"text":"這裏是一間大廈"},{"start":7864.873,"end":7887.033,"text":"中文字幕志愿者 杨茜茜"},{"start":7907.515,"end":7908.396,"text":"這裏有個大廈。這裏有個大廈。這裏有個大廈"},{"start":7942.128,"end":7943.289,"text":"首先有請我們經濟部連署長"},{"start":7967.877,"end":7969.358,"text":"今天我們是討論產創條例的修正及延長"},{"start":7987.318,"end":8015.113,"text":"那根據經濟部的報告說交市產業雙軸的轉型再來就是增加新創募租的機會第三項避免關鍵技術的外領由原先來的投資體檢項目裡面有智慧機械5G支通的安全現在又新增了AI產品及它的服務範圍"},{"start":8016.653,"end":8040.638,"text":"還有節能減碳那這裡面對於家事產業雙軸的轉型還有增加新創募資的機會在原則上本席是非常支持及讚賞但是避免關鍵機制的外流這一點工業總會裡面對這一點也都抱持著一個懷疑那次長你從產業"},{"start":8043.26,"end":8067.892,"text":"工业及产业发展史这一路经过来你应该都很了解台湾的产业那这里面你们谈到为了保护关键的基石及维持产业的竞争力第22条修正的重点聚焦对外投资的管理范围对外投资的管理会除了投资达一定的格度"},{"start":8069.268,"end":8097.85,"text":"應市區申請核准外也針對的投資於特定國家或地區特定國家或地區及特定產業或技術等情形需市區申請如果將主管機關認定影響國家安全影響國家經濟的發展得令其"},{"start":8098.823,"end":8107.27,"text":"撤回投資,這嚴重啊我不知道我們現在何必打我們台灣像川普一樣的我們可以發布國家經濟緊實狀況"},{"start":8110.905,"end":8140.339,"text":"美國是大國是大國家他們掌握世界上他們軟體技術很好什麼東西都一直在限制我們台灣是小企業除了台積電現在人化科自己打拼出來可以跟高通相比了幾個企業有這樣的實力自己研發出來我現在不知道他們請我來問什麼叫做特定國家什麼叫做特定區域"},{"start":8141.195,"end":8143.045,"text":"你们一直为了追讯跟我们讲这些"},{"start":8144.398,"end":8171.648,"text":"什麼是特定產業或基礎其實我自己發明的如果照你們這樣萬一我曉得這個在講地緣政治臺灣是秀的地方大家要去探局還有一定的情況我希望你這個要定義的很清楚什麼樣產業才會影響國家的安全經濟你這就要跟我們講清楚不然很多工商也真的人心惶惶要倒數也不敢去倒數"},{"start":8174.139,"end":8201.4,"text":"世界的生意那麼大我講真的話歐美都有偏見覺得他們機師都比台灣好台灣的價格又賣不高去到那邊他就又賣不高歐美的機師價格非常高那台灣是靠這樣到特定地區去打拚去賺錢我相信很了解這個流程但是這幾個定義你能不能解釋清楚好"},{"start":8201.92,"end":8208.12,"text":"各位報告這個相關的我們會在執法裡面授權執法來定那所謂的特定國家地區其實"},{"start":8209.312,"end":8231.066,"text":"因為這個戰略性高科技講明白就是中國大陸嘛中國大陸是兩岸條理阿美國跟你要你敢不給他台積電那麼大的公司乖乖就要去報導了我們不要講得那麼好聽阿現實的狀況阿特定77在那個戰略性高科技豁免管制的這樣的公司這個有特定阿什麼叫特定的產業那因為這個有國際規範什麼叫特定"},{"start":8235.189,"end":8248.578,"text":"順眾為之你們設這個願意應該要再送出來給立法院再討論跟工商業再來討論一下好不好我們在訂定這個執法的時候會跟這些工商業者"},{"start":8249.378,"end":8272.633,"text":"我也是密集的來討論這個東西在定議前會送到經濟委員會讓我們看一下我希望真的要尊重台灣人很可憐耶是很怕病耶是人物名字耶要貪那些情緒苦苦辛辛的在那裡停滯啊好不好好再來我請市委部啦那個誰啊市委部還有國安會啦國安會高副主委"},{"start":8282.575,"end":8303.889,"text":"我相信你們增加的產品新增加的就是智慧AI產品及服務還有一個節能減碳我今天為什麼把三個叫起來你看我們經濟部裡面有技術處有工研院"},{"start":8304.949,"end":8324.098,"text":"有我們的產業發展史現在就是世衛產業史我怎麼會突然把它調到世衛部去其實這個世衛的產業跟我們所有的產業是息息相關的"},{"start":8325.757,"end":8342.315,"text":"所以我今天為什麼請國安部的高副指揮你也在國安部很久我是一個大膽的建議啊不然這樣摸不著頭緒摸不著頭緒,要找到一個黨委副國安部會迷迷糊糊啦我是講真的啦你會變成多頭馬車"},{"start":8344.585,"end":8372.901,"text":"所以我今天大膽建議你國防部真的要有作為把世衛部的世衛產業史掛到經濟部裡面再成立一個史這樣產業發展史、世衛發展史計時次工研院剛好結為一體大破大立不要因循傳統世衛部你不要抵制你世衛產業史裡面在這邊才能給你真正的發揮"},{"start":8374.682,"end":8391.657,"text":"當然未來的AI產業它所發展的各種跟文化什麼都會改變了很多這是關鍵性的時刻咱不要因習傳統某些企業就要來等一下要找到思維部等一下要找到思維發展使用技術處我是建議"},{"start":8394.97,"end":8416.369,"text":"回去也轉達一下,國發會也要有大膽作為你們的劉志偉我覺得頭腦很新在國外管理單位顧問公司當過董事長算非常有經驗我是今天看到這樣大家說得很高興很高興你們有統一的領導沒有這樣一個系統的治理會做不好"},{"start":8417.253,"end":8443.054,"text":"尤其AI智慧的產品硬體的時候以後都會變成鴻海市場你經濟部包括國安委你都要發揮我們AI那個邊緣運算的產業等於是我們的軟體台灣在這個時候要加強軟體才能永久利益不敗之地啦考慮一下對我的看法怎麼樣國慧你講講阿師會不要不要講"},{"start":8444.834,"end":8467.446,"text":"你不好意思講對不對你實在很想過來經濟部這邊才覺得做起來有Power有行動力來國外會主任您看法怎麼樣第一個我想謝謝委員的建議您的建議因為主委回國我一定會跟他轉資不過其實AI的技術其實進展得非常快它適用的範疇跟領域也變動得非常的大"},{"start":8468.246,"end":8489.152,"text":"那當然我們各部會的執掌必須要因應這個新的時代技術的轉變再來做調適那我想委員的意見我們一定會審慎的考慮跟考量那務必要發揮跨部會協調的縱效啦不要因為有時候分工不明確導致有些事情延長所以我對你們這樣的想法"},{"start":8492.953,"end":8507.159,"text":"我覺得統一的話在一個地方聯絡開會方便部門看這位講得很好聽你們的國外會是做這個協調真的要改變啦好啦謝謝啦你們不去改變我們也沒有關係啦"},{"start":8508.479,"end":8529.501,"text":"我跟您說 正是為台灣好 該改變的要改變 我們把它改變好不要讓這些企業 這些人家要研發創新的 都有一個統一的倉庫找的對象比較好找 謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝陳昌明委員 非常碩士謝謝 請回座 下一位執行人請在這裏"},{"start":8540.802,"end":8544.634,"text":"謝謝主席有請經濟部的連次長以及財政部的理事長"},{"start":8553.51,"end":8576.422,"text":"先問一下財政部的理事長喔因為剛才看了很少人問你喔請你講一下話這個今天審的是儲產條例產創條例了其實最早從開始的獎頭獎勵投資儲產然後一直改一直改一直給他減減減到目前為止"},{"start":8577.662,"end":8597.352,"text":"經濟部所推動的所謂的獎頭也好 出產帖也好 產創也好等等的總共稅損多少 算過沒有我以為要從出產到從獎頭開始沒有這個數字我們現在手邊沒有這個數據手邊現在沒有這個數據因為我們沒有想到好 那我是跟你講 產創經濟部出估大概800億"},{"start":8608.66,"end":8632.031,"text":"這個不要讓你回答了 看下一頁去2023就在前年的時候總共核准了777件減免214億集中在電子業包括台積電、聯發科、聯友、聯電、日光、日月光、旺虹、藍牙科"},{"start":8633.001,"end":8639.643,"text":"就是這給我賺錢的有錢喔 你拼命再給他啦用國家的碼拼命掛給他們這樣這這麼對 這這麼好就是你們經濟部方這樣老是拿我們老百姓的錢來賭賭賭賭來給這些賺大錢的"},{"start":8651.787,"end":8655.53,"text":"這個台積電賺這麼多錢 連電賺這麼多錢還要卡政府的油還要卡了這個700億 就從產窗來講800億裡面幾乎都是給這些那個 理事長啊 你敢說那麼久啊從租稅公平的角度來講這等於是戒貧 戒貧戒貧戒戶啦是 謝謝委員這個產種條例就是戒貧戒戶條例啦"},{"start":8682.4,"end":8699.006,"text":"報告委員基本上因為我們從獎頭時代到現在促產然後經過十年這麼多年的發展到現在產業創新條例其實基本上他的租稅獎勵的工具還有就是獎勵的範圍其實一直有因應我們整個國家經濟發展的需要我先重點不是在問你我是跟你強調你們強調"},{"start":8703.007,"end":8720.923,"text":"今天所有的委員 立委提出來今天主席啊 當然我知道這個是為行政院排的啦主席都排的 你看立委都是排第10條之一增加AI進來啦 增加節能的啦那個沒有人反對了可是真的重點在22條 剛才陳昌明講得非常好啦"},{"start":8722.162,"end":8740.22,"text":"二十二條這是一個一個等於類似晶片法案台灣晶片法案這是到底配合美國的請問連社長是不是那個理事長可以回去了是不是配合美國的進一步的管制我們的投資到中國大陸去技術到中國大陸去是不是"},{"start":8740.8,"end":8755.285,"text":"報告跟委員報告那個投資大陸那有兩岸兩岸那個關係條例在處理那個會比這個更嚴格這個是因應整個國際的情勢就是因應美國的要求嘛這個國際規範國際規劃嘛就沒錯嘛就是美國國際就是美國嘛重點在這裡啊各位整本法案重點在22條這裡啦就是管制啊前面實施的運動給你多讚多讚給你這樣"},{"start":8769.19,"end":8796.658,"text":"其實是一點點啦重點在管制啊管制沒有一個立委提出這個啦你們重點在這個地方啦我跟你補充報告就是說我們在這個執行過程中確實是有碰到有一些案子因為我們現在的法治不是很周全所以有發生了一些案子那這些案子其實是我們現在是15億以上才會去審查那他透過一些漏洞然後真的是對我們我們台灣真的是有一些影響"},{"start":8797.338,"end":8813.231,"text":"譬如說譬如譬如說舉例Landmark Field舉例一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個"},{"start":8816.397,"end":8819.019,"text":"這個道道地地就是根據美國的屁股後面走的法案啦22條藏在這裡啦今天這麼厚一本就是22條就是進一步管制我們的對外投資你看喔特定國家指的是中國大陸嘛特定地區就是中國大陸還有哪些地方"},{"start":8836.414,"end":8842.797,"text":"你告訴我還寫哪些地方特定後面還寫什麼這些都是你們中央儲管機關來訂的變成你愛回歸就回歸不愛回歸就不愛回歸這個地方老實講是投資戒嚴啊是這樣子啊那個市長啊"},{"start":8853.735,"end":8868.161,"text":"人之將去啊我沒有說你是 你好好的啦 你健康啦你要離開齊炎也善齊炎也真啦齊炎也美啦齊炎也真 齊炎也善 齊炎也美我希望你講真話啦這個條例你是不是看得以你的專業你專業還是工業界 風電圈都是不要限制的"},{"start":8880.506,"end":8893.612,"text":"違背你內心的 那個內心深處 你的專業 敢不違背要三條A嗎?我們在制定執法的時候 一定會跟業界衝突請問你會不會感覺有這種感覺?違和的感覺?沒有嗎?這在我們目前國際的一個情勢或國家發展國家的發展就配合美國來 我再請問你你年紀輕輕的我怎麼離開啊?委員 包括委員 我60幾歲啊"},{"start":8910.371,"end":8918.018,"text":"還沒到65啊 年紀輕輕的啊 下馬頭一個啊因為身體不合理身體不合理喔 還是長官太兇我一天睡覺沒四點鐘喔長官太兇 長官太兇沒有 他對你不好你們大家都互惠他對你不好是不是沒有 這絕對沒有他還沒有挽留你"},{"start":8932.751,"end":8939.636,"text":"有有挽留喔挽留幾次挽留好幾次好幾次 1 2 3 4 5 6幾次 幾次啦 挽留幾次N次啦N小於3我們本來在說老老在打拚 但是我真的是身體不堪敵啦我身體不堪敵 我沒有 我沒有怕會替我受苦啊所以我還是要 雖然要為國家打拚 但是要照顧大廳"},{"start":8957.829,"end":8967.791,"text":"你接多久 請問你接多久我接了 如果到20到8個月啦8個月啊 你接這個是假的啦這根本就是過個水就很清楚的主席啊剛才主席讓其他委員都講個多一兩分鐘啦這個今天主席比較仁慈啦今天我看到這個我們智慧主席很仁慈讓我多講一分鐘我知道啦"},{"start":8984.395,"end":8998.498,"text":"但是如果你真的這麼想退你不會說八個月就走掉 其中必有鬼啦沒有沒有沒有 完全沒有啊 這個東西 齋齋的啦對不對 大家都在行啊來的啦 這一看就知道委員 我不可以做到倒下去 你們再來臨前燒香再來跟我說 老闆知道就給你退休就好了 不可以這樣啊不然你身體好的人啊 我就要等他 不然倒我先退這樣"},{"start":9009.48,"end":9013.264,"text":"這樣比較對這樣比較適合我好了這個八個月這麼短的時間來最後一點你的專業川普總統說馬薩基總統他說風變是垃圾你怎麼講"},{"start":9024.995,"end":9043.105,"text":"你同意不同意 你是封閉專家喔 你是封閉專家喔你講話很有那個 國資會講的叫做亂共 他根本就不懂他說啊 這個川普只做事你意向很大他是垃圾專家我只能說再生能源現在是國際的趨勢 他講封閉是垃圾你怎麼會"},{"start":9045.779,"end":9067.26,"text":"那是他個人的見解啦你尊重你不敢批評他你看到最後一點我明確的跟你講台電一千億的增值我已經寫提案砍掉全砍好不好這個是沒有意義的你們部長已經講他可以借錢就去借嘛好不好順從你們部長回去跟他講我意志非常堅定一千億一定要砍否決不要決"},{"start":9071.532,"end":9098.202,"text":"好 謝謝賴時保委員 也請經濟部財政部兩位次長回座現在有請邱志維委員好 謝謝主席 也請林次長跟國會高副主委"},{"start":9098.729,"end":9100.931,"text":"好 請林市長 高副主委這個保險 保險業有很多的資金他沒有受到相關的規定 沒有辦法有效再投入新創產業甚至在國內相關的投資表率比較少 大部分都是國外國外也有很多匯兌損失"},{"start":9123.283,"end":9136.102,"text":"所以怎麼樣能夠充分運用這個保險的這些資金啊特別導入這個新創事業這部分這個國發會或者是經濟部有沒有具體看法"},{"start":9138.063,"end":9155.836,"text":"報告委員其實我們保險業要投入到新創大概是從VC或PE那VC這一塊其實我們國發基金我們其實有匡列給不同的部會其實今年增加了兩個百億基金一個是AI"},{"start":9156.716,"end":9158.579,"text":"一個是特定產業嘛對特定產業那還有一般性的產業就是我們長期已經匡列給中小企業處還有一些製造業策略性製造業跟策略性服務業這已經有基本上有蠻多年了"},{"start":9173.617,"end":9197.627,"text":"意思就是我們還有綠色成長基金這也是綠色的新創我問你是說以目前的金額來看我們有30兆的保險資金但是只有351投資國內創投跟國外的水準是差很遠你怎麼用制度性用政策把這些保險業的資金能夠提高能夠到1000億投資到昨天創投市場"},{"start":9199.568,"end":9220.445,"text":"是 所以我們其實因為我們因為基本上我們還是要借重VC或PE嘛那VC這一塊我們除了鼓勵保險業因為保險業有很多他自己是有做VC的我認為他會保守啦對就因為你真的太保守你沒有辦法去開放如果開放他只能去投資國外的這個這些債券所以我們這次產創條例裡面有增加對於這個這個這個"},{"start":9225.089,"end":9240.334,"text":"那個VC這一塊我是針對保險業資金所以這部分很可惜因為資金那麼多就沒辦法好好地使用我想委員有提醒我們到時候再來跟經管會看看就是有什麼的獎勵的措施第二個問題請教就是說"},{"start":9243.815,"end":9267.695,"text":"我們這個對新創的這個定義啊那國安會是你用創業天使投資方案是未滿五年齁那如果按照經濟部中計署這個新創事業認定是未滿八年那最後的版本院版是用國安會的版本那請教次長你用五年還是八年比較好你看八年是最多的加數啊"},{"start":9268.739,"end":9274.979,"text":"5到8年新創的家屬是最多將近快2600家是所有新創族群裡面最大的比例"},{"start":9276.116,"end":9303.806,"text":"所以五年對他們而言沒有實際的幫助跟委員報告因為我們這是要做投資鼓勵他去做投資新創所以我們是從投資面去看所以我們那時候才會引用那個國發會的五年你自己做技術也有新創事業認定對啊那後面就是新創因為他後面八年一般來講是比較趨於穩定成熟那我們是鼓勵他再投在比較前面所以八年能不能接受"},{"start":9306.11,"end":9330.547,"text":"你用日本的英國的經驗來看只有日本是未滿五年還有未滿十年它有不同的新創標準所以我折衷八年我覺得是可行可以去思考的業界也這樣期待這個部分我希望如果下午要審查這個法案的時候我們希望能夠用這個版本折衷版本我想國會應該也可以同意吧"},{"start":9331.485,"end":9358.311,"text":"那個高副主委因為基本上VC的出廠就會到8年就會出廠所以就變成說5到8年就是就像市長說的說的是比較成熟期的那我們這個立法的本領應該是鼓勵你那時候制定是兩年對不對那個新創產業的環境有很大的變化你的存活率是很低的你那個必須對他們支持的年限要增加"},{"start":9359.051,"end":9369.606,"text":"所以這次已經調整到五年啦就是可能不立法的本地啦不過兩三年之後我要修法要變成八年所以一步到位我覺得比較好第三點來下一頁這個"},{"start":9374.81,"end":9402.808,"text":"投資門檻 投資門檻的部分我當然我的修正版本是個人銀行是維持50萬那如果是創投的就是法人的股東的話可以到300萬這部分這個高副主委或者是林市長您的看法怎麼樣這個我們會請那個因為這個我們內部我們跟財政部有在去討論如果是法人的話其實我們現在有很多那是要理事長來回答是吧是要理事長"},{"start":9403.871,"end":9428.577,"text":"如果增加一個法人到300萬這個可以嗎?報告委員因為法人現在其實他們已經很多優惠了那還有這個投資的所得不用記錄所得課稅然後他如果處分的話還有證券交易所得免稅那因為我們又另外我們現在營利世界所得稅的稅率其實是大概只有20%而且實質有效稅率只有14%所以你們還是覺得所以我們是覺得法人部分"},{"start":9429.637,"end":9447.529,"text":"對 法院部門似乎不需要再額外給他這個多餘的獎勵因為他事實上已經足夠了另外這個抵檢的上限個人的話如果到800萬對稅會不會有什麼影響因為我們現在已經這次我們修正也把那個300萬提高到500萬了"},{"start":9448.59,"end":9463.608,"text":"那其實也是有呼應窗頭的500萬是重點產業不是說有但是因為畢竟因為大家委員也知道因為真正如果把金額提高真正適用享受到這個租稅優惠的就是所得非常高的人"},{"start":9464.264,"end":9485.332,"text":"那他的所得因為我們一般所得稅率最高是10%如果你現在提高對 就對他來講節稅的效益太大對稅會不會有影響會啊 會有影響啊因為租稅馬上個人的所得稅負馬上就降低而且降低的幅度是相對比較大的沒關係 其他的問題我們下午在主角審查的時候我們再來討論好 謝謝委員好 謝謝邱志偉委員也請一個次長回座"},{"start":9508.859,"end":9520.325,"text":"好 下位之言請吳麗華委員謝謝主席 有請經濟部次長經濟部連次長"},{"start":9529.7,"end":9537.875,"text":"市長好市長我在簡報上有一張照片那這個是在印尼的蘇拉威西省"},{"start":9538.871,"end":9559.75,"text":"那他們正在進行開採的是做電動車電池很重要的鎳礦那這個照片當中有一個背影是當地的原住民那我看了這張照片其實我很有感也很感慨為什麼呢因為這就是全世界原住民的一個縮影"},{"start":9561.411,"end":9586.343,"text":"那在這個開採案裡面也有很多的台灣企業投入那我們總是覺得說看到這樣的場景就是會想到國家的法律呢其實限制了或者不承認原住民他們既有的這種謀生方式開墾方式有很多的法令處處限制可是呢我們卻看到國家把森林收為國有而且允許企業進來開採"},{"start":9590.706,"end":9606.545,"text":"我想這樣的一個情景其實是全世界原住民的一個縮影那變成是原住民呢在自己的土地就是當工人而沒有辦法在自己的土地去經營這塊土地那是非常令人感到非常遺憾的"},{"start":9607.606,"end":9611.088,"text":"那為什麼我這樣談因為今天委員會是排了產業創新條例那我自己也做了第22條的一個修正動議那我基本上我想我們肯定在這一次的條例當中可能是基於我們有一些企業那樣是之前新聞很大的就是台塑"},{"start":9631.838,"end":9650.111,"text":"他們的鋼鐵在越南造成一些污染那我們就發現到說國內國外都無法可制裁而且嚴重的破壞我們的國際形象所以在這樣的一個條例當中我也很肯定但是我希望能夠具體化"},{"start":9652.353,"end":9670.057,"text":"要件更具體化哪一些要件就是我增加了原住民的權利環境的污染智慧財產權等等希望能夠在事前事後能夠做一個很重要具體的審查要件不曉得次長您覺得如何我原來這個"},{"start":9672.594,"end":9690.85,"text":"提議是利益非常良好但是因為我們這個是對外去投資的那對外投資其實我們首先要顧的是跟國際的相關規定有沒有去違反那另外關於有一些制裁或是當地原住民的這些文化其實應該是他要回到當地的相關法令這邊來規劃因為就是屬於屬地主義"},{"start":9693.132,"end":9722.352,"text":"所以這一部分如果是列在我們這個我們國內的這個法令其實相對是市長我想這個事前事後審查是不是在經濟部的手上對對但是那我們也剛剛講了其實我們是因為我們發覺到不要到國外國內都無法制裁而且是嚴重影響我們的國際形象所以在事前事後的審查照理說我們的政府應該要去做這樣的一個審核把關"},{"start":9724.313,"end":9747.124,"text":"因為這個確實這一部分如果說要列到目前這樣規定其實是在審查上是其實是有點是比較你的意思說行為還沒有發生無法審查對因為他要到當地去有產生一些行為之後他才會發生所以是屬於屬地主義如果他違反了當地的相關的規定他就應該要受到當地的那至少我們是不是也可以在我們可以在"},{"start":9748.625,"end":9748.826,"text":"我們回過頭來看我們國內"},{"start":9761.569,"end":9784.648,"text":"現在大家都在做地熱的開發那根據我們經濟部地礦中心這是公開的資料我們可以看到在原住民族地區的大概地熱開發佔了67%也就是說很多的地熱開發區呢都在原住民的地區那我在這邊就是要特別想要請教一下因為"},{"start":9785.649,"end":9801.152,"text":"我過去在礦業法修法的時候我跟洪森漢委員我們在努力之下也成功的把這個諮商同意的指引也納進去了您應該很清楚那現在我要講的是地熱那你看一下這張圖這個是在花蓮萬榮鄉的紅葉看起來就是在抗議但是我想說有時候並不是部落不願意"},{"start":9815.29,"end":9828.123,"text":"做開發 而是有一些問題 像這個他們是因為他在私有地上開發結果呢 說不需要進行諮商同意引起話軟"},{"start":9829.611,"end":9847.708,"text":"次長你將心比心今天來到你的家你的部落要進行這樣的開發但是他說因為是私有地不需要跟你們部落的人來談我覺得這是相當不尊重的行為也不會受歡迎啦你再來看這個是台東金峰鄉的金輪"},{"start":9848.709,"end":9871.481,"text":"你看一個小小的地方 1 2 3 4 4個地熱開發廠有的專炭中 有的開發中 有的已經發電次長重點是也不用進行諮商同意 因為全部都是在私有地也就是說現在廠商很聰明 我們就專門找私有地那我相信"},{"start":9872.501,"end":9896.373,"text":"很多的是慢慢做比較快啦像這樣子強行進入其實也造成地方很重大的一個反彈那現在第二個問題是也有問題你看看這個是你們能源署2024年12月31公告出來的你看你們也在亂你們竟然把取得原住民諮商同意放在探勘之後"},{"start":9897.713,"end":9916.806,"text":"鑽探之後那鑽探期間的噪音 廢水甚至很多是公墓的底下難道不需要跟部落的人來去取得他們的同意跟他們來做說明嗎又或者像是這個前置的行政作業要相公所認定"},{"start":9917.466,"end":9946.118,"text":"那就很奇怪啦因為這個是要部落同意的為什麼要經由鄉公所那經由鄉公所你看像原基法這個部落諮商同意辦法當然他也開了一個後門明明礦產或土石之鑽探是需要進行諮商同意辦法可是他在另外的地方又說這個主管機關可以認定如果無侵害之餘或促進原住民土地利用可是鄉公所他如果援引他說"},{"start":9946.798,"end":9958.621,"text":"促進原住民土地利用所以呢可以那怎麼辦呢他就會含釋排除諮商同意所以我現在只是想要問經濟部的態度您認為整個地熱探勘從他一開始的探勘專探階段需不需要經過部落的諮商同意市長你認為 這個我們正在研議我們跟文明會在做討論看要怎麼去把這樣的一個"},{"start":9971.784,"end":9992.11,"text":"探勘然後以後要設置那個開發要怎麼跟當地的部落還有當地的居民達到一個很和諧的共識這我目前正在研議我們會來檢討我上次參加第一熱的論壇我也有你們的能源署副署長有參加我也有表達那因為時間的關係主席再給我一分鐘我直接講結論那我希望是"},{"start":9995.811,"end":10018.397,"text":"這個淨零碳排 2050的目標全世界都在走我們對再生能源的需求我們都知道那其實部落也不是不願意來去做這樣的一個能源開發只是需要尊重那像這些歐盟都會開始做一些許可指南加速這個許可流程 簡化這些框架那我是希望說要去做一個行政指引"},{"start":10018.837,"end":10025.886,"text":"如同我們上次的礦業法一樣好不好讓他更清楚然後我也希望成立地熱專區的示範點以這個金輪你看現在有四個案場如果能夠做一個地熱專區的示範點我相信未來要做地熱開發的都可以來到這個地方來去參觀"},{"start":10036.058,"end":10046.845,"text":"那因為我其他的部分的時間的關係我沒有辦法談那我也可能也會在3月份希望呢應大家的要求我會來辦一個地熱的公聽會那我希望很多的問題到時候呢我們一起來討論一起來促成政府的一個政策的目標能夠達成好不好"},{"start":10055.75,"end":10078.56,"text":"那我也希望原住民能夠成為我們的一個土地的主人能夠成為資源的共享那正是包括今天的財政部國發會也都有來我也希望一併的來提醒因為我也有盤點像金管會的經費或者是財政部的兆元國家的一個方案我都希望是說到時候我們一直要求的那個礦"},{"start":10079.94,"end":10087.424,"text":"那些資源能源開發的辦法 也都有經費我們一同的來促成 讓部落看看如何能夠參與 好不好 次長好 謝謝主席"},{"start":10106.677,"end":10127.133,"text":"謝謝邱昭偉 請國發會的高副主委跟經濟部連次長先問一下副主委我先請教一下 輝達的總部跟研發中心大家都高度關心據聞總部在台北 研發中心在高雄是這樣嗎"},{"start":10129.583,"end":10146.337,"text":"副市委就你掌握到的訊息對 那我想基本上就是輝達的總部會在哪裡那我們都會有說其實還是由他來做正式的宣布那基本上都在台灣其實對台灣"},{"start":10148.174,"end":10167.397,"text":"整體都會有利對台灣當然整理好了不過我還是希望就是大家也高度貫注就是說當然因為有些用電的部分不要用電在南部然後總部都一直落在北部這個其實常理來說其實並並不那麼公平那我覺得其實當然我們希望他整個在台灣但是還希望如果在"},{"start":10168.398,"end":10184.465,"text":"國發或經濟部能夠溝通還是要希望持續鼓勵讓整個分散開來因為這幾年其實從輝達到AMD在高雄投資確實也相當多那我們也希望持續的思考有時候也許他們的顧慮點是在於過去來慣性都在"},{"start":10185.545,"end":10204.747,"text":"臺北啦 但是我還是希望思考一下不要只有這種算力中心 當然我們還是爭取啦但不要只有算力中心 耗電量大的是在高雄我們希望總部這些也能夠往高雄來思考好不好 讓南北有更而且現在很多的群聚也都在高雄啦 我們希望持續的溝通 持續的來協調"},{"start":10205.888,"end":10225.182,"text":"委員放心 因為現在政府就行政院施政的主軸就是均衡台灣所以我們六大的區域跟生活圈裡面其實全島都是很平的這一點 老師我也要特別提醒這個高雄的電力是充分供應的包括邱隊委員選區的興達到我選區的大嶺到現在的不管是"},{"start":10226.302,"end":10246.331,"text":"燃氣電廠到西街都在進行都快速在推所以高雄的電力是很充沛供應這個一定要讓更多的業界知道不要只是設在北部但是南部供電我想這個並不是一個好的方案長期來說那個耗損跟風險都存在著那我們希望鼓勵更多的業者往南部去做投資"},{"start":10247.071,"end":10268.634,"text":"我想國際大廠他的資訊應該我們會給他充分的資訊他也會做正確的評估選擇最適的地點我都印象中那時候松湖連變電所都還不願意興建然後還發生了很多的問題你連不要說電廠連變電所市長可以講連變電所都不願意的時候後來發現真的沒電了不是沒電不是"},{"start":10269.355,"end":10290.269,"text":"南部供電上來給你問題你沒有連變電所都沒有你電怎麼送進去所以我們還是呼籲說如果說要有產業來的話一定要當地要有充分的那個電力供應電是基本的大家都要用電產業用電民生用電大家都要用電但是要支持電力的建設對要支持電力的建設那市長我也問一下那總部跟研發中心有沒有機會到高雄來這個我還是"},{"start":10293.747,"end":10310.155,"text":"那個像副主委講的做來做去他們來公布比較適當也希望經濟部持續的溝通啦好不好就是不要只有用電或一些不論在南部還是要持續爭取好不好那我再來問一下次長啦那個跟副主委先休息啦我問一下今年的水電會不會漲"},{"start":10311.741,"end":10339.079,"text":"今年的水電因為在我們已經講說在過年期間這個東西都不會去調整嘛那今年會不會漲因為還是要經過兩個有一個機制在有一個機制在會去充分的討論考慮到當下的整個經濟狀況還有民生的物價的狀況對因為水電漲其實都是一個大的問題都是一個大的問題要很謹慎省省來跟社會溝通包括我們的物價包括我們的這個各項指數能控制很好跟我們整個都控制很好是有很大的關係"},{"start":10340.62,"end":10349.524,"text":"那當然我問了那如果像這樣台電好了啦政府的撥補聽說2000億也不給現在看起來好像是這樣2000億也不給那也不給你漲電價那台電後續的經營上會不會出現問題"},{"start":10353.168,"end":10374.583,"text":"這個應該有不同的可能性啦因為如果是這個2000億確實是為了以前在壓低民生物價的時候去做出來的貢獻啦那當然我們是希望說他們等於是由政策去決定他們啦照理說國際原物料價格增加你當然就市場機制你就是必須漲但是國家要求你穩定住嘛"},{"start":10375.263,"end":10385.732,"text":"那如果說真的最後沒有的話我們還是要求台電在一些經營方面好好再去檢討會不會產生經營上的壓力跟問題會不會會內部有沒有評估過有有會不會有問題在應該是財務上會很困難財務上困難到什麼程度他如果要舉債他舉債上限應該"},{"start":10398.058,"end":10415.038,"text":"剩下不多我可以請副總稍微說明一下舉债上限到了嗎再來虧損的話它會再大幅要不要說明一下台電說明一下跟副總報告齁它不但舉債這個會越來越多那利息也會相對增加所以它整個舉債的成本一定會相對的增加"},{"start":10415.572,"end":10443.955,"text":"所以你們今年變 如果政府也不撥布給你們也不讓你們漲變價的話那你們只有不斷的繼續舉債那會超過你們舉債上限嗎上限現在 其實我們現在在舉債的同時就是來投標的其實已經越來越少以前都兩三倍以上現在已經快接近一倍也就是說我們現在舉債的有可能都是額度都已經沒有辦法額滿了這樣那公司經營上會不會有問題我們一直在努力的維持台電的經營的穩定"},{"start":10445.309,"end":10469.045,"text":"我還是希望經濟部門台電這些訊息還是要讓大家更清楚大家台電努力的我覺得台電是很優秀很多優秀的同仁那這些部分其實問題在於整個國際的能源包括國家的一些政策那其實大家應該理性來討論那你既不給他撥補你也不同意他調整那這樣狀況你要台電怎麼去穩健的經營我覺得這個還是要"},{"start":10471.247,"end":10497.168,"text":"經濟部跟台電還是要不斷的對社會說明清楚我覺得這個才能理性來討論我個人是認為其實應該要給予合理的撥補讓整個這個經費那再來我問一下那個台水的部分過去我曾經提過700億的部分來降低漏水率那我也看到了院長也很支持808百億那這個漏水率減了之後那這些經費的部分未來有沒有調漲水價的壓力"},{"start":10498.41,"end":10521.911,"text":"因為這個跟那個水價是比較無關的啦這個等於是由行政院支持整個經費啦因為水價是31年沒有調啦那這個東西如果要動的話我們都會審視但是這樣的那個來做漏水這塊改善是確定要做的嗎這確定要做的我們希望加速改善啦因為你要再開發新的水源越來越難那從漏水反倒是比較好的方法市長謝謝"},{"start":10524.153,"end":10548.746,"text":"好 謝謝請回座 待會兒總統今天表現不錯 時間空調可以明天講接受消費資訊請議員認識麻煩請到那個次長哪一個次長 典警司長"},{"start":10561.784,"end":10581.366,"text":"市長您是預計年後退休嗎2月份3月份2月份退休為什麼國智慧部長來以後次長相繼退休沒有沒有他上次講說是因為立法院給你們壓力很大那真的是這樣子嗎沒有這個是人生自己的規劃那立法院給你壓力大不大"},{"start":10582.049,"end":10598.773,"text":"當然啦當然立法院就是有要求要叫一些東西我們還是都要努力的來達成那是因為這個原因所以沒有沒有不是不是那可是郭志輝講的啊沒有沒有這個人因素那你打臉他沒有沒有打臉他那我想問一下齁我先問一下因為我看經濟部的那個記者會"},{"start":10602.25,"end":10618.502,"text":"部長有特別提到有關於台積電的因為以前大家經濟部的政策是說那台積電如果要到其他國家投資的話要落後兩世代就N加2政策嘛但是郭部長改口了他的說法是說以後沒有所謂的N加2了啦只要企業有賺錢就去啦"},{"start":10619.463,"end":10640.036,"text":"他說政府的目的就是讓企業可以賺錢換言之以後台積電是不是他2奈米或幾萬以先進製程想要去哪個國家經濟部投審會全部都放行是這個意思嗎這我們還是一個審查機制在啦沒有他的態度是說沒有N加2嘛所以以後就不是以N加2當作一個標準的我們還是要經過計審會跟"},{"start":10641.657,"end":10662.468,"text":"跟委員會這個兩個門檻來那是不是只要是企業有賺錢就是審查標準就是看企業有沒有賺錢沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":10662.588,"end":10689.949,"text":"沒有沒有然後他還講說像那個美國台積電啊要派那個最好的大將台積電最好的大將王老闆去美國才做得起來所以如果說我們沒有這個N加2的這樣子一個政策台積電想賺錢就可以去的話那台積電一個很好的大將通通到各國去啦所以這是我們擔心的嘛因為台積電在台灣算是一個非常賺錢的公司各位朋友我們遊戲規則現在還在還在還是要按照遊戲規則不是他講的那樣啦齁"},{"start":10691.564,"end":10718.382,"text":"然後 那再請教一下那個輝達現在亞洲總部已經確定在台北了嘛 對不對這個要由他公佈啦因為劉靜清已經公佈了啦劉靜清國發會主委已經公佈了我想問一下 因為還是你們郭部長啦之前都一帶風向說好像輝達的亞洲總部不會在台北大家都猜錯為什麼故意又要去講這個東西真的很怪"},{"start":10720.083,"end":10734.52,"text":"好啦 不會為難你啦 對 不會為難你對 不會為難你免得你以後講的跟他不一樣那我想關心一下那個水費因為我們現在對於水價調整方案我們看不懂你知道之前講是說自來水公司要調漲水價然後一次要漲四成"},{"start":10735.322,"end":10760.576,"text":"那坦白說啦水價如果說三十幾年沒漲的話你要漲一點大家我覺得都是可以接受啦但是一下漲到四成漲這麼多我覺得大家都會擔心會不會引起比如說民生的問題或者是物價通膨的問題那現在感覺又改口了又說沒有這個規劃說呢沒有水價漲四成的規劃然後計算合理水價也不代表漲價"},{"start":10762.293,"end":10782.809,"text":"我真的看不懂然後再來就是講說如果要調整方案的話是不是採取分級銷售機制來落實照顧民生我先講第一件事情因為物價調漲這個東西非常敏感你們一講話很多比如說店家什麼他們會預先漲價他說我要因應之後水價漲價我要預先漲價"},{"start":10784.85,"end":10800.397,"text":"物價一漲就跌不下來所以講這種漲價事情要非常謹慎小心那怎麼可能先拋出一個四成以後又說沒有了我們要有什麼分級銷售機制什麼叫分級銷售機制我首先要澄清跟委員澄清沒有"},{"start":10801.757,"end":10819.441,"text":"經濟部從來沒有拋出說要漲四成的這樣的一個那為什麼會有這個消息出來這個是外面自己去算說如果是31年沒漲然後要調到什麼機制他們自己去算出來絕對沒有這一回事所以不是你們講的不是那如果說好那什麼是因為那個要去調漲的話什麼是分級銷售機制來來來"},{"start":10824.863,"end":10849.481,"text":"因為這個東西也不是我們的資料也不是你講的我們正在規劃它上面寫說經濟部重申耶它說例如是否採取分級銷售機制那個只是說如果是有的話可以朝這個方向但是現在還在規劃我們三個月內會提出一個規劃方向而且這個規劃有一個機制它要調一個機制不是說外面講的說我調就調而且會考慮到民生的這些項目謝謝"},{"start":10854.303,"end":10856.825,"text":"好 市長請回座 消費資金委員請黃財長委員好 謝謝主席 我想請經濟部臨時長"},{"start":10876.31,"end":10884.031,"text":"我再確認一下就是水電雙漲今年不知道會不會漲是但是為什麼要放這個消息呢"},{"start":10885.106,"end":10906.163,"text":"這個消息是哪裡來的因為我們因為我不知道這消息從哪裡來的因為第一個過年的時候我們是有發布一個新聞稿是水電油氣這個東西就變頭半頭啊那至於說水電這個要不要漲因為它有一個機制在沒錯所以不要不要空口恫嚇人民也不要讓大家覺得說好像"},{"start":10907.403,"end":10926.315,"text":"對經濟部不太滿意就放一些消息來打你們然後每次都是你們來背黑鍋其實我們也有對外去說明說沒有沒有這回事就講得很清楚而不是讓別人來消我覺得這個是對民生有關的不可以隨意這樣子用放消息測風向的方式這第一點第二個"},{"start":10927.296,"end":10949.782,"text":"在去年總統大選的時候其實賴總統說過如果兩岸緊張天然氣無法進口的時候核能會是緊急所謂的緊急使用核能那經濟部長王美花當時也說涉及相關核安法規我想問了一年過去了我們有關所謂的緊急使用核能政策還是經濟部的政策之一嗎"},{"start":10951.675,"end":10975.265,"text":"這個因為還是要依法所以法規上面做不到嗎?還是做得到?還是次長不方便說?一年過去了,有沒有答案了?還是核能反正非核家園已經確定了,不太可能緊急啟用了所以去年的所謂核電作為緊急啟用的是騙人的回答因為我們的法令規定現在還是沒有改變"},{"start":10975.765,"end":11001.161,"text":"沒有改變所以不太可能做緊急備用啦這是第二個該說清楚的說清楚不要再讓大家覺得有誤解或者是說有可能還會做緊急啟用看起來是不會的就說清楚第二個部分是現在包括你可以看到美國這麼先進的國家他的大火還是讓整個國家碰到了所謂的極端氣候我們的問題是在於說接下去的未雨綢繆"},{"start":11002.947,"end":11030.792,"text":"我們對於所謂的經濟穩定有沒有做過所謂的經濟兵推經濟部跟國發會或者是相關的企業家因為今年我們看到日本共同社他報導說有114家日本主要的大型企業進行調查有53%的日本企業將近60家針對台灣如果發生戰爭極端情境已經做好準備而且正在考慮做好準備"},{"start":11031.618,"end":11052.299,"text":"也就是說台灣的大企業很多行銷全世界我們對於所謂台灣碰到的戰爭極端奇境我們曾經做過準備或有考慮做過準備嗎因為我想這些國際大廠應該本身在對這部分都會有一些台灣對於我們自己的國家相關的企業有做過這樣的規劃"},{"start":11054.02,"end":11073.43,"text":"比如說緊急應變的手冊人員疏散的計畫還有所謂的撤離那當然國外的廠商他會有撤僑我們自己對於自己的企業有沒有相關的經濟兵隊你跟我們報告因為我這個這個業務我沒有涉入好所以我要接要講那是不是請國發會一起上台國發會高副主委委員好副主委你認為台灣有多少企業有做這樣的準備"},{"start":11083.707,"end":11103.157,"text":"還是從來沒有想過 也沒有想過要做地緣政治風險我覺得地緣政治風險一定是現在各個國際就是大型企業他考慮的那個因素所以緊急應變計畫我覺得不單單是企業他要考慮而是我們國家在我們這麼重大的我們台灣算是非常重要的地緣政治的"},{"start":11104.116,"end":11130.21,"text":"算是核心地帶 其實我們的國家應該做好緊急並推的規劃很好 我希望能不能夠由國發會跟經濟部告訴我一下我們對於國內的企業有沒有類似相關的緊急應變計畫然後提供給本席 再做一個參考好 因為這屬於國安 我們再來恰好那國發會請劉部 那經濟部先請回我想請那個財政部以及數位產業署來 財政部理事長數位產業署"},{"start":11133.891,"end":11160.103,"text":"市委好好 三位好市長我想今天我要問的是有關行動支付的普及率行動支付在國發會主政然後數位產業署在推動現在目標本來是在106年當時的行政院長賴清德說114年要達到90請問一下現在的普及率有多少"},{"start":11161.834,"end":11179.12,"text":"我们在财政部这部分我们推动的主要是对那个小规模企业的你们是来解说对我们是对小规模来数产数位产业数你们大概现在普及率是多少我们大概在112年的时候普及率大概是80.7%所以114年要达到90%做不做得到"},{"start":11182.021,"end":11209.855,"text":"我們目前在努力當中努力當中好 但是今天請財政部的原因就是因為我們這個相關的優惠措施到今年的年底也就是說它還沒有達到90%可是你的優惠措施到年底可能就結束了所以我的意思是說行動支付重不重要重要我們希望小規模的營業人能夠進來然後給他的優惠但是好像還是有一些成效不彰的狀況將近80%是做不到"},{"start":11210.735,"end":11235.863,"text":"這個部分有沒有檢討過我想這個部分因為我們目前因為時間還沒到我們還是請我們各地區國稅局很努力的在跟我們是所以重點是來所以國發會數位產業署跟財政部我覺得這件事情是國家的重大政策他現在只有80我們其實到很多國家去已經不太需要用到現金了在台灣很多地方可能還是需要用到現金"},{"start":11236.463,"end":11261.95,"text":"可是這個部分的行動支付的推廣還有小規模營業人的部分我希望這個政策可能要持續下去直到百分之百為止可以嗎我們會跟數位部還有國防會一起來考量就是推動目標至少90%以上而不能只是以90%為目標第二個如果可以的話中小型的規模的營業人給他租稅的優惠可能讓他願意參加"},{"start":11263.47,"end":11291.108,"text":"所謂的行政支付會更有誘因我們會到會配合相關部會我們會不管怎麼樣我希望財政部一個月之內我們跟大家討論一下接下去的評估方案好嗎因為到年底要結束了那年底以後呢怎麼辦我們財政部負責部分由我們來那個一個月那個請數位產業署跟國發會以及財政部一起來把這個政策接下去的後續的作業方式提供相關的報告給本席"},{"start":11291.448,"end":11306.277,"text":"好是好謝謝好謝謝請回座賴委員賴委員不在蔡英文不在林大輔林大輔林大輔不在蘇勳賢蘇勳賢蘇勳賢不在黃汪威黃汪威黃汪威不在蔡宇蔡宇蔡宇在"},{"start":11315.657,"end":11323.643,"text":"好 謝謝昭偉那我們是不是有請我們國發會副主委 高副主委國發會高副主委那以及經濟部我們的市長 經濟部臨時長好"},{"start":11332.823,"end":11358.817,"text":"副主委跟市長那最近因為在討論整個半導體然後大廊方計畫那也希望說透過整個AI半導體的發展可以把台灣從高雄到屏東台南嘉義這樣的一個這個半導體的一個產業鏈然後可以把它串在一起那當然嘉義目前有一個很大的優勢"},{"start":11359.628,"end":11387.064,"text":"就是台積電的這個COWASCOWAS廠它目前是把嘉義當作中心所以COWAS它大概就是先進封裝的一個技術所以大概未來的AIAI晶片它要到使用端是不是都要經過所謂的封裝先進封裝 傳統封裝都必須要先封裝這個AI才有辦法被使用嘛那我想要進一步的去請教那如果是日本"},{"start":11388.424,"end":11413.275,"text":"日本現在雄本的AI製造這些AI晶片需不需要封裝有一部分可能要再送回台灣這邊要送回台灣封裝對不對連美國現在這一部分除非他的供應鏈有建立起來事實上在美國也是要送回台灣封裝我們就這樣認為說台灣會做成AI的日不落國就是說我們除了製造厲害之外"},{"start":11414.335,"end":11438.76,"text":"AI的伺服器97%在台灣這邊對然後整個製程在台灣是很重要所以我要跟市長以及我們副主委說未來的貨運空運貨運一定是台灣整個經濟脈絡的主軸那這個空運我們看到了我們陳其邁高雄其邁市長他認為說他們在高雄應該要填海造陸創造台灣的一個貨運國際機場"},{"start":11441.08,"end":11452.664,"text":"但是填海造陸 畢竟如果規劃的大概是18到20年但是台灣確實沒有辦法等18到20年這麼久的時間那我們也知道現在台灣整個貨運95%以上都在桃園機場"},{"start":11458.998,"end":11480.959,"text":"以目前的小港機場的貨運大概只佔1.79%那所以呈現的就是說我們目前這些AI他們在南部如果製造好後他要經過運送到國際運送到國際的一個情況之下那目前到桃園等於他的入運成本是相對比較高的"},{"start":11481.499,"end":11492.825,"text":"所以我們要下降入運成本我們就必須要讓這些貨運可以在南部的機場可以做一個分流這個副主委跟次長你們是否贊成"},{"start":11494.72,"end":11514.925,"text":"那我就具體建議了我從剛剛講整個晶片是需要經過COWAS新過封裝傳統封裝先進封裝那嘉義就是封裝的一個基地未來不管是在世界各國包括日本美國生產的晶片總是要運送回來台灣那我們嘉義水上機場"},{"start":11517.052,"end":11540.755,"text":"我覺得副主委你可以去規劃在高雄填海造陸未完成前這段過渡時期我們先把水上機場它的貨運功能提升因為水上現在就是國際機場只是它飛的班次不多只是它的使用量不夠所以我們水上機場我們不要去說它會變成一個以客運為主 不用我們把它變成以貨運為主的一個機場"},{"start":11543.332,"end":11567.032,"text":"就是強化它貨運來 貨機怎麼有一個停機坪可以在節省國家這個過渡期間最少的資源之下我們來發展水上的國際貨運機場我想要請教副主委跟次長這樣的看法你們是否可以來支持並且來跟嘉義來協助來提案"},{"start":11567.657,"end":11575.122,"text":"因為當然如果說可以把我們的貨運做暢期流的話我覺得這個方向都是可以去考慮的好 那我想聽副主委"},{"start":11576.109,"end":11598.355,"text":"站在國安會的立場報告委員 其實我們這一次的六大產業還有生活圈的規劃裡面我們事實上都會考慮到當地的發展的產業裡面它所需要的一些基礎建設我們會全盤考量那如果是像委員所提的這個建議 我們會做評估"},{"start":11598.875,"end":11616.559,"text":"因為其實有不同的選擇那我會選一個其實最有效率的方式因為基本上一定是會支持在地產業的發展如果您說的如果貨運空運海運不足貨運這些 晶片基本上都是空運我們會全盤考量"},{"start":11620.16,"end":11635.624,"text":"我要跟副主委再說一下,因為在高雄填海造陸完成前這20年的期間是整個晶片、整個AI非常重要的時刻所以我們不能先在等這個20年後那我們嘉義水上機場有一個優勢這個優勢勒,說起來我會心生,不然我一定要告訴你們聽,這叫落後的優勢"},{"start":11642.506,"end":11658.286,"text":"為什麼現在其他的機場,我們現在他的貨運難以發展就是因為有宵禁的問題,11點過,飛機不能飛,宵禁的問題很嚴重啊那我們嘉義,雖然一樣要面對宵禁,可是我們B港,我們那裡,我們那裡都地比較多,我們那裡都做事的"},{"start":11659.126,"end":11683.231,"text":"所以我們那邊附近農地比較多所以你在在於這個宵禁的問題要貨運讓他貨倉急流然後宵禁的問題要面對的時候我們的嘉義這個地方就有這樣的優勢可以當這20年內我們南部的一個在一個大型的國際機場完成前這20年的過渡期間跟他在最終期間就要保留這塊這樣好不好"},{"start":11685.411,"end":11701.057,"text":"謝謝委員提醒因為這還是有限制到交通部的相關權責那我想我們國發會會來因為國發會規劃嘛會來做協調而且我再跟副主委跟市長再說一個很好的優勢我們以後打我們國際人說我們台灣很強的"},{"start":11702.518,"end":11711.49,"text":"我們水上也可以有基礎,他說水上怎麼會有機場咧我們就說對,我們這個名字叫做水上國際基礎,貨運為主國外人聽到就說台灣強,水上也可以有基礎,太厲害了"},{"start":11718.76,"end":11745.11,"text":"好不好我們再來跟交通部再來做協調跟協商我們很期待這一件事情我們這樣好好的來規劃大南方的這樣的一個AI半導體的一個聚落我們除了說這個37線橋下的這個交通路運要好之外要怎麼樣台灣接軌國際南部的這個貨運國際機場非常的重要好不好好 謝謝全力支持水上機場"},{"start":11748.495,"end":11753.517,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請經濟部次長跟國防會副主委來 次長我先請教"},{"start":11775.58,"end":11796.613,"text":"前兩天這個媒體有講因為川普總統即將就任我想世界的經濟政治局勢大家也都在看那其中當然川普總統他有很多的一個言論其中講到風電的一個部分那大家就去問我們經濟部郭智慧部長郭智慧部長居然講是說他任期才四年影響有限"},{"start":11798.703,"end":11824.936,"text":"次長認同我們郭部長這樣講嗎我本來想說今天是部長要來我想請教說他是用什麼樣的一個邏輯思考判斷會針對美國新上任的總統他直接講說人家任期四年影響有限是看衰共和黨不會再繼續執政還是說認為美國總統的政策影響全球不大台灣身為全球的一個"},{"start":11826.246,"end":11854.987,"text":"供應鏈也好或說我們產業的一環裡面我們可以這樣子忽視嗎來 市長我覺得任何一個國際的一個改變我們身為國際的一環我們都要戒慎恐懼的好好去做評估啦是 淨零碳排是全球的趨勢嘛對對對那但是川普總統有川普總統的想法我想有他的想法但是我們有我們的既定政策是 可是會我們會去跟人家講是說人家總統的影響力有限經濟部有做過評估川普總統影響力到多少"},{"start":11857.302,"end":11872.441,"text":"有嗎沒有沒有所以部長也沒有找我們次長來討論我們只有說在國際的情勢是怎麼走向然後我們國內的政策是怎麼走向我們要按照原來的步驟這樣來往下走所以次長"},{"start":11873.422,"end":11894.65,"text":"我真的還是誠摯的呼籲經濟部是我們國家的經濟發展火車頭部長的話真的不要讓大家捏一把冷汗我不知道說你們次長跟部長的溝通到底順不順暢但是最重要的是如果說部長都這樣子拖江野馬然後隨便說人家的總統任期影響有限"},{"start":11895.782,"end":11909.449,"text":"我真的會感到非常擔憂啊這一點拜託 帶話回去我再轉告我們部長是 因為本來本席是很希望是直接跟部長就教 到底什麼教育影響有限來 那國發會副主委委員好"},{"start":11911.232,"end":11925.202,"text":"賴清德總統在選舉的時候就來到本席的淡海新市鎮並且也講說淡海科學城新北123那其中淡海科學城裡面就是我們新市鎮二期一的計畫現在150公頃的土地"},{"start":11927.403,"end":11941.723,"text":"那我們也看到是說國土署現在在做這個相關的盤點那但是國發會跟經濟部要來製作產業的一個帶動那目前本席這兩天因為有預算的關係也有請國發會的主委國發會的同仁來這邊來說明但都還沒有進度"},{"start":11944.346,"end":11963.022,"text":"甚至連最基本的期程先期計畫可行性評估甚至我們問是說你到底有沒有可行性計畫來先去做研究未來我們是要往AI的人才引進比較軟體的設備還是說讓整體的還是硬體的方向沒有一個方向"},{"start":11963.643,"end":11974.712,"text":"好 跟委員報告因為這不是我主管的業務不過我大概知道說其實我們的六大區域的產業跟生活圈裡面的確有把這個您剛才說的淡海科學城對 放在裡面"},{"start":11980.017,"end":11986.023,"text":"那可是呢因為北部的我們北部有一個地位我忘了那個名稱啦那個裡面這個科學層的確在裡面可是呢因為這個計畫剛剛才因為我們上位的指導計畫剛剛才核定那接下來呢因為我記得是應該是經濟部會做一個主導的單位"},{"start":12001.677,"end":12022.996,"text":"因為經濟部主導對然後他會規劃一些細部的內容所以可能目前還沒有辦法像那麼明確的跟委員報告可是接下來一定會有一個具體的結果副主委我只提醒啦兩個部分第一賴清德總統來到新北都講說新北123淡海科學城對"},{"start":12023.757,"end":12046.773,"text":"卓榮泰院長在淡江大橋視察的時候也講說我們要把後壁變前院甚至提說北部最好的產業園區條件兩個空港桃園空港跟台北港就是淡海科學城既然都已經院長跟總統都有這樣的一個宣示的話我們國發會跟經濟部速度不能慢吧是"},{"start":12047.273,"end":12069.29,"text":"要跟上對就是的確一定是在那個規劃的範疇內委員放心那的確我們可能腳步要加快計劃兩個部分一個是期程一個是經費所以本席也要求就是說國發會這邊要讓本席看到以及讓地方看到你的計劃的期程到底在哪裡以及你要投入相關逐年編列的經費"},{"start":12070.291,"end":12092.716,"text":"這一點部分是不是可以請副主委事後指示同仁再給本席相關報告不過這個計畫基本上是因為我們六個區域各有主政的部會這個是經濟部主政那我們是負責上位規劃我們會跟經濟部一起來 次長熟不熟悉你看我每一次問內政部國土署國土署說是經濟部跟國發會問國發會 國發會說是經濟部來 那經濟部打起來吧"},{"start":12098.697,"end":12124.882,"text":"如果交給我們 我們就來規劃了好啦本席要的是一個進度地方期待很久但是我們地方更重要是要看到的是時程規劃不用畫大餅可是讓我們知道說未來每年每年逐步具體的時程我想這才是我們地方真正需要的發展好不好 請給本席相關的資料好不好 謝謝好 謝謝 請回座"},{"start":12131.564,"end":12158.453,"text":"好 黃國昌 黃國昌 黃國昌黃國昌不在登記發言委員處不在場之外 其餘不均已發言完畢訓導結束由委員林德甫 林黛樺 顏寬恆所提書面諮詢我們列入記錄刊登空報書面諮詢及位及答案部分請相關單位一周內以書面答案並複製本會好 那討論事項今天所列的產業創新條例部分條例修正草案合併訓導結束"},{"start":12160.462,"end":12185.308,"text":"現在進行廣泛討論廣泛討論沒有人登記發言進行 接著進行逐條討論那今天條文比較多 請議事人員宣讀所有條文如果有修正動議跟附帶舉例請一併宣讀宣讀完畢之後我們休息到下午兩點"},{"start":12190.787,"end":12210.524,"text":"2點30分再繼續開會請宣讀行政院函勤審議產業創新條例第10條之一為優化產業結構達成智慧升級轉型並鼓勵多元創新應用最近3年內無違反環境保護勞工戶食品安全衛生相關法律且情節重大"},{"start":12211.585,"end":12237.857,"text":"且情結重大情勢之公司或有限合夥事業自中華民國114年1月1日起至118年12月31日止投資於自行使用之全新智慧機械導入第五代行動通訊系統自通安全產品或服務人工智慧產品或服務節能減碳之相關全新硬體軟體技術或技術服務其支出金額在統一課稅年度內合計達新台幣"},{"start":12240.078,"end":12254.663,"text":"100万元以上18亿元以下之范围得选择以下列方式之一抵减应纳盈利事业所得税额一经责定不得变更其个年度投资抵减金额已不超过当年度应纳盈利事业所得税额30%为限"},{"start":12256.624,"end":12270.072,"text":"一于支出金额5%限度内抵减当年度应纳盈利失业所得税额二于支出金额3%限度内自当年度起三年内抵减各年度应纳盈利失业所得税额"},{"start":12271.789,"end":12300.739,"text":"公司或有限合夥事业于同一年度合并试用前项投资抵减及其他投资抵减时其当年度合计得抵减总额已不超过当年度应纳盈利事业所得税额50%为限但因其他法律规定当年度为最低抵减年度且抵减金额不受限制者不在此限第一项所称智慧机械指运用机器人数位化管理虚实整合或基层制造之"},{"start":12301.539,"end":12328.937,"text":"智慧技术元素并具有生产资讯可视化故障预测精度补偿自动参数设定自动控制自动排成应用服务软体弹性生产或混线生产之智慧化功能者第一项所称第五代行动通讯系统此运用符合第三代合作伙伴计划第十五版以上规范之中高频通讯大量天线阵列网路切片网路虚拟化"},{"start":12332.82,"end":12348.713,"text":"邊緣運算等第五代行動通訊相關技術元素設備含測試所需或垂直應用系統以提升生產效能或提供智慧服務者第一項所稱自通安全產品或服務只為防止"},{"start":12349.894,"end":12378.191,"text":"資通系統或資訊遭受未經授權之存取使用控制洩漏破壞篡改銷毀或其他侵害確保其機密性完整性及可用性運用於終端與行動裝置防護網路安全維護或資料與雲端安全維護有關之硬體軟體技術或技術服務第一項所稱人工智慧產品或服務指運用機器學習演算法"},{"start":12379.315,"end":12406.604,"text":"深度学习演算法大型语言模型或自然语言处理之技术元素仿人类智慧进行认知学习及推论能大规模利用各类数据类型形成产业所需知辨识分类或生成等各式应用优化企业营运或生产制造效能之硬体软体技术或技术服务第一项所称节能减碳使运用公用节能或制成改善之"},{"start":12407.344,"end":12424.95,"text":"低碳技術元素以提升能源使用效率減少能源或資源耗用進而降低溫室氣體排放公司或有限合夥事業申請適用第一項投資底檢應提出具一定效益之投資計畫經各中央目的事業主管機關專案核准"},{"start":12425.51,"end":12445.212,"text":"且于同一课税年度以申请一次为限前八项智慧机械第五代行动通讯系统资通安全产品或服务人工智慧产品或服务节能减碳投资抵减之适用范围具一定效益之投资计划申请期限申请程序和定机关抵减率"},{"start":12445.632,"end":12463.78,"text":"当年度合计得抵减总额之计算及其他相关事项之办法由中央主管机关会同财政部定之第22条公司或有限合伙事业从事国外投资有下业情形之一者应于实行投资前向中央主管机关申请核准"},{"start":12464.56,"end":12476.638,"text":"一 投资于特定国家或地区二 投资涉及特定产业或技术三 投资达一定金额公司或有限合伙事业从事国外投资非属前项锁定情形者"},{"start":12478.047,"end":12502.639,"text":"經於實施投資後報中央主管機關備償公司或有限合夥事業依第一項申請核准投資經中央主管機關會商相關主管機關認定有下列情形之一者中央主管機關得全部或一部不予核准或維護付款之核准依影響國家安全二對國家經濟發展有不利影響三影響政府遵守所締結之國際條約或協定"},{"start":12505.4,"end":12522.129,"text":"四 申请投资公司或有限合伙事业违反劳动相关法规引发重大劳资纠纷尚未解决第一项及第二项之情形公司或有限合伙事业实行国外投资后国外投资事业之经营有前项各款锁定情形之一者"},{"start":12522.629,"end":12540.255,"text":"中央主管机关得令其采行一定改正措施情节重大者得令其撤回投资第一项锁定特定国家或地区特定产业或技术一定金额国外投资之方式出资种类申请程序第二项备查事项报请"},{"start":12541.095,"end":12569.094,"text":"被查期间前项一定改正措施及其他相关事项之办法由中央主管机关会商相关主管机关定之第23条之一为协助新创事业公司之发展自中华民国114年1月1日起至118年12月31日止依有限合伙法规定新设立且属第32条规定之创业投资事业符合下列各款规定"},{"start":12570.307,"end":12599.006,"text":"且自该事业设立第二年度起各年度资金应用于我国境内及投资于实际营运活动在我国境内之外国公司金额合计达当年度累积投资金额50%并符合政府认测经申请中央主管机关逐年核定者得适用第三项课税规定依设立当年度及第二年度各年度中了日有限合伙契约约定出资总额"},{"start":12599.887,"end":12629.085,"text":"达新台币1亿5000万元二 设立第三年度实收出资总额于年度中了日达新台币5000万元且累计投资于新创事业公司之金额达该事业当年度实收出资总额50%获达新台币2亿元且不得低于该事业当年度实收出资总额20%三 设立第四年度实收出资总额于年度"},{"start":12629.505,"end":12636.447,"text":"中柳日達新台幣1億元且累計投資於新創事業公司之金額達該事業當年度實收出資總額50%或達新台幣3億元且不得低於該事業當年度實收出資總額30%"},{"start":12646.07,"end":12664.346,"text":"四 设立第五年度实收出资总额于年度终了日达新台币1亿5000万元且累计投资于新创事业公司之金额达该事业当年度实收出资总额50%或达新台币4亿元且不得低于该事业当年度实收出资总额40%"},{"start":12666.983,"end":12692.83,"text":"适用第三项规定之事业事后办理清算者于清算期间内不得不受前项规定限制继续适用第三项规定符合第一项规定之事业自设立之会计年度起十年内得就各该年度收入总额依所得税法第24条规定计算盈利事业所得额分别依有限合伙法第28条第二项规定之盈余分配比例"},{"start":12693.75,"end":12713.784,"text":"計算各合夥人盈利所得由合夥人一所得稅法規定增免所得稅合夥人為個人者不適用同法第15條第4項及第5項規定屬源自所得稅法第4條之一所定證券交易所得部分個人或"},{"start":12715.205,"end":12725.179,"text":"總機構在我國境外之營利事業之合夥人免納所得稅合夥人於實際獲配適用本項規定事業之營餘時不記錄所得額課稅"},{"start":12727.458,"end":12755.464,"text":"適用前項規定之事業如有特殊情形得於該項鎖定試用期間屆滿三個月前專案報經中央主管機關核准延長試用期間延長之期間不得超過五年必以延長一次為限適用第三項規定之事業於該項鎖定試用期間內應因鎖得稅法第七十一條第一項第七十五條第一項及第二項規定期限內按財政部規定格式辦理結算"},{"start":12756.779,"end":12774.561,"text":"決算及清算申報無需計算及繳納其因納之稅額不適用同法第39條第一項但書虧損扣除第42條第一項轉投資收益不記錄所得稅課稅本條例及其他法律有關租稅優惠之規定"},{"start":12776.583,"end":12796.097,"text":"並免依同法第66條之9未分配營餘加徵營利事業所得稅及第102條之2第一項報繳未分配營餘加徵稅額且不適用所得基本稅額條例規定適用第三項規定之事業其當年度所得之扣繳稅款"},{"start":12797.458,"end":12823.175,"text":"得依有限合伙法第28条第二项规定之盈余分配比例计算各合伙人之已扣缴税款该已扣缴税款得抵缴合伙人之应纳所得税额适用第三项规定之事业应于各适用年度所得税结算申报或结算清算申报法定截止日前将依第三项规定计算之合伙人之所得税"},{"start":12824.156,"end":12849.193,"text":"所得额与前开已扣缴税款按财政部规定文件格式填发于各合伙人并以该事业年度决算日应办理当期决算申报事由之日或清算完结日作为合伙人所得归属年度有第三项所得之合伙人为非我国境内居住之个人或总机构在我国境外之盈利事业者"},{"start":12850.387,"end":12866.384,"text":"因已适用该项规定之事业为所得税扣缴义务人于该事业当年度所得税结算申报或结算清算申报法定截止日前依规定之扣缴率扣取税款并于该截止日"},{"start":12867.245,"end":12884.848,"text":"知次日起算十日内向国库缴清及开具扣缴平单向该馆税捐基专机关申报核验后填发于合伙人该截止日知次日起算十日内欲连续三日以上国定假日者所扣"},{"start":12885.938,"end":12912.318,"text":"所扣稅款缴纳扣缴平单申报核验及发给期间延长5日该合伙人有前项已扣缴税款者得自其因扣缴税款中减除你适用第三项扣税规定之事业应于设立之次年2月底前责定一经责定不得变更适用期间经中央主管机关核定不符合第一项规定者自不符合规定之年度起"},{"start":12913.038,"end":12936.366,"text":"不得再適用第三項規定並因依所得稅法及所得基本稅額條例規定辦理第一項所稱新創試驗公司指依公司法設立之公司或實際營運活動在我國境內之外國公司且於適用第三項規定之試驗取得該公司新發行股份時設立未滿五年者"},{"start":12936.866,"end":12952.176,"text":"第一項及前項所稱實際營運活動在我國境內之外國公司只依外國法律設立之公司在我國境內設立子公司或分公司且經中央主管機關認定符合下列各款規定者"},{"start":12952.796,"end":12975.46,"text":"一、做成重大经营管理、财务管理及人事管理决策者为我国境内居住之个人或总机构在我国境内之盈利事业或做成该等决策之处所在我国境内。二、财务报表、会计账簿记录、董事会议事录或股东会议事录之制作或储存处所在我国境内。"},{"start":12976.389,"end":13005.675,"text":"3.在我国境内有实际执行主要经营活动低项实收出资总额与累计投资金额之计算资金运用于我国境内及投资于实际营运活动在我国境内之外国公司金额之及比例之计算符合政府政策之范围投资于新创事业公司累计金额站有限合伙事业实收出资总额比例之计算与申请及核定程序"},{"start":13006.215,"end":13023.149,"text":"第四項之特殊情形及延長試用期間之申請程序前項實際營運活動在我國境內之外國公司之認定與相關證明文件及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同財政部定之"},{"start":13024.648,"end":13052.571,"text":"適用第三項規定事業之所得計算與申報程序第七項扣繳程序及其他相關事項之辦法由財政部定之第七項之扣繳率由財政部擬定報請行政院核定第23條之二個人以現金投資於成立未滿5年經中央目的事業主管機關核定之國內高風險新創事業公司且對同一公司當年度投資金額達新台幣50萬元"},{"start":13054.692,"end":13068.281,"text":"并取得该公司之新发行股份持有期间达三年者得较投资金额50%限度内自持有期间届满三年之当年度个人综合所得总额中减除"},{"start":13069.119,"end":13084.749,"text":"個人適用錢向投資金額減除優惠當年度合計得減除總額以新台幣500萬元為限其中投資之高風險新創事業公司非屬經中央目的事業主管機關論定之國家重點發展產業者"},{"start":13086.59,"end":13113.969,"text":"该部分当年度合计得减除之金额以新台币300万元为限请二项个人之资格条件高风险新创事业公司之适用范围与资格条件国家重点发展产业之范围及认定程序减除总额限额之计算申请期限申请程序持有期间计算核定机关及其他相关事项之办法由中央主管机关会同财政部定之"},{"start":13115.134,"end":13132.15,"text":"第67條之一適用第12條之一第12條之二及第19條之一者公司應與股東轉讓或辦理帳部劃撥之年度或緩客期間屆滿年度之次年度因1月31日前依規定格式向合管"},{"start":13133.191,"end":13145.404,"text":"向該管稅捐基金機關列單申報該以轉讓辦理帳部劃撥或借其尚未轉讓之股份資料該次年度1月連續3日以上國定假日者"},{"start":13149.568,"end":13172.004,"text":"列單申報期間延長至2月5日子其未依限或未據時申報者稅捐基金機關儲限其責令補報或填發外儲新台幣5萬元以上50萬元以下罰還經稅捐基金機關限其責令補報或填發公司未依限補報或填發者儲新台幣10萬元以上100萬元以下罰還"},{"start":13174.005,"end":13174.466,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13187.338,"end":13203.064,"text":"所得稅法第71條規定為一線辦理結算申報而以依同法第79條第一項規定補辦結算申報者因依稅捐基增機關調查核定之所得而按當年度適用之營利事業所得稅率計算之"},{"start":13204.744,"end":13229.091,"text":"金額增10%滞报金但最高不得超过新台币3万元最低不得少于新台币1500元二 欲所得税法第79条第一项规定之补报期限人为办理结算申报者应依税捐基增机关调查核定之所得按当年度适用之initiate所得税率"},{"start":13229.791,"end":13255.362,"text":"所得税税率计算之金额并增20%代报金但最高不得超过新台币9万元最低不得少于新台币4500元3.以依所得税法规定办理结算结算决算或清算申报有短漏报依所得税法规定之课税所得额者应就税金积增机关"},{"start":13256.889,"end":13285.254,"text":"核定短漏之課稅所得額按當年度適用之initial所得稅率計算之金額除2倍以下之罰緩4為依所得稅法規定自行結算自行辦理結算決算或清算申報而經稅捐基金機關調查有短漏報依所得稅法規定計算之課稅所得額者應就稅捐基金機關核定短"},{"start":13285.814,"end":13302.63,"text":"漏之課稅所得額 按當年度適用之盈利事業所得稅稅率計算之金額除3倍以下罰還5 未依有限合夥法第28條第二項規定之盈餘分配比例計算各合夥人盈利所得額者"},{"start":13303.13,"end":13317.028,"text":"因按其计算之所得额与依规定计算所得额之差额除5%之罚还但最高不得超过新台币30万元最低不得少于新台币15000元6."},{"start":13317.028,"end":13320.994,"text":"未依现或未据实填发第23条之一第6项规定"},{"start":13321.814,"end":13350.091,"text":"文件者處新台幣7500萬元之罰還並通知現期填發借其未填發或未據時填發者因案未填發文件之所得而處5%之罰還但最高不得超過新台幣30萬元最低不得少於新台幣15000元第23條之一第7項規定之扣繳義務人有下列各款情形之一由稅捐及等機關分別依各該"},{"start":13352.545,"end":13356.894,"text":"規定處罰一 未依第二三條之一第七項規定扣繳稅款者"},{"start":13360.771,"end":13382.758,"text":"除限期責令補繳應扣未扣或短扣之稅款及補報扣繳平單外並按應扣未扣或短扣之稅而處一倍以下之罰還其未於限期內補繳應扣未扣或短扣之稅款或不按時補報扣繳平單者應按"},{"start":13386.579,"end":13403.259,"text":"因扣未扣或短扣之稅額處三倍以下之罰還二以依第23條之一第7項規定扣繳稅款而未依同項規定之期限案時申報或填發扣繳平擔者"},{"start":13404.52,"end":13427.25,"text":"或除限期責令補報或填發外儲新台幣1500萬元1500元以上2萬元以下罰還經稅捐基增機關限期責令補報或填發扣繳平單 扣繳義務人為依限按時補報或填發者儲新台幣3000元以上45000元以下罰還三 預遞"},{"start":13431.853,"end":13437.983,"text":"23條之一第七項規定期限繳納所扣稅款者每日三日加徵1%滯納金第67條之三"},{"start":13442.571,"end":13470.623,"text":"公司或有限合夥事業違反第22條第一項規定未經核准實行投資處新台幣5萬元以上100萬元以下罰還並得令其限期改正停止或撤回投資藉其為改正停止或撤回投資者的案次處新台幣50萬元以上1000萬元以下罰還公司或有限合夥事業實行國外投資"},{"start":13471.343,"end":13496.575,"text":"未履行中央主管機關一第二十二條第三項規定所為之付款或經中央主管機關一第二十二條第四項令採行一定改正措施或撤回投資經限期履行改正或撤回投資而未履行改正或撤回投資者得按次處新台幣五十萬元以上一千萬元以下罰還第七十條"},{"start":13498.877,"end":13511.54,"text":"其他法令享有租稅優惠獎勵補助者不得就統一事項重複享有本條例所定之租稅優惠獎勵或補助公司或企業最近三年因嚴重違反"},{"start":13512.831,"end":13540.546,"text":"環境保護勞工或食品安全衛生相關法律且情節重大經各中央目的事業主管機關認定者不得申請本條例之獎勵或補助並追回違法期間內依本條例申請所獲得之獎勵或補助依前項規定應追回獎勵或補助者各中央目的事業主管機關應於追回之處分確定後與其網站公開"},{"start":13542.239,"end":13559.052,"text":"該公司或企業之名稱依稅捐基增法第48條第二項規定停止或追回本條例之租稅優惠者財政部應於該停止並追回處分確定年度之次年公佈其名稱不受稅捐基增法第33條規定之限制"},{"start":13562.605,"end":13571.272,"text":"第72條本條例自公佈日施行但第10條施行期間自中華民國99年1月1日起至108年12月31日止本條例中華民國104年12月30日修正公佈之第10條第12條之一第19條之一施行期間"},{"start":13584.123,"end":13596.496,"text":"自105年1月1日起至108年12月31日子本条例中华民国106年11月22日修正公布之第12条之一第12条之二第19条之一"},{"start":13597.91,"end":13607.717,"text":"施行期间自106年11月24日起至108年12月31日子第十条施行期间自106年11月24日起至108年12月31日子第23条之后施行期间自106年11月24日"},{"start":13621.849,"end":13636.322,"text":"本条例中华民国107年6月22日修正公布之第19条之一施行期间自107年6月22日起至108年12月31日本条例中华民国108年7月24日"},{"start":13639.184,"end":13661.76,"text":"24日修正公布至第12条之一第12条之二第19条之一施行期间至109年1月日起至118年12月31日至第23条之三施行期间至公布生效日起至118年12月31日本条例中华民国112年"},{"start":13664.27,"end":13680.132,"text":"1月19日修正公布条文施行期间至112年1月1日起至118年12月31日至本条例中华民国全年全月全日修正至第23条之二施行期间至114年1月1日起至118年"},{"start":13683.059,"end":13709.492,"text":"12月31日子第22條及第67條之三施行日期由行政院定之委員葛如軍等提案第10條之一第一項第三具修正為自中華民國108年1月1日起至118年12月31日子投資於自行使用之全新智慧機械或人工智慧技術投資於導入第五代及後續更先進科技之行動通訊系統或自111年1月1日起至118年12月31日子"},{"start":13712.313,"end":13729.048,"text":"投資於智通安全產品或服務之相關全新硬體軟體技術或技術服務其支出金額在同一課稅年度內合計達新台幣100萬元以上得選擇以下列方式之一抵減因納盈利事業所得稅額一經責定不得變更"},{"start":13730.269,"end":13754.258,"text":"其各年度投資抵減金額已不超過當年度因納營利事業所得稅而百分之三十為限其文字同行政院提案第一項第二項同行政院提案第三項前段文字修正為第一項所稱智慧機械只運用巨量資料人工智慧物聯網機器人精實管理數位化管理虛實整合基層製造或感測器之智慧技術元素"},{"start":13755.39,"end":13778.201,"text":"其餘文字同行政院提案第三項第一項所稱能工智慧技術只涵蓋晶片中端硬體雲端運算系統圖像處理器現場可程式邏輯雜症列特殊應用機體電路等硬體設施類神經網路專家系統大數據趨勢分析開發平台架構深度學習機器學習語音辨識影像辨識自然"},{"start":13779.221,"end":13805.47,"text":"语言处理逻辑城市设计模糊逻辑概率推理本体工程等演算法技术且应用于金融科技智慧制造智慧医疗智慧健康智慧交通智慧家庭智慧工业自动驾驶车智慧农业自动零售智慧城市智慧娱乐智慧教育量子电脑脑机界面体现智慧等领域第五项前段修正为第一项所称第五代及后续更先进"},{"start":13806.63,"end":13819.617,"text":"行动通讯系统只运用至少符合第三代合作伙伴计划第15版以上规范之中高频通讯其余文字同行政院提案第4项第6项同行政院提案第5项第7项同行政院提案第8项"},{"start":13820.97,"end":13848.824,"text":"第八項手續前段修正為前七項智慧機械人工智慧技術第五代及後續更先進科技之行動通訊系統或自動安全產品或服務投資抵檢之適用範圍其餘文字同行政院提案第九項第十七條之一為鼓勵產業創新人才培育最近三年內無違反環境保護勞工或食品安全衛生相關法律且情節重大情勢之公司或有限合夥事業"},{"start":13849.984,"end":13872.522,"text":"自中华民国113年1月1日至118年12月31日投资于人才培育支出的选择以下列方式之一抵减因那盈利事业所得税额一经责定不得变更并以不超过其当年度因那盈利事业所得税额30%为限1.于支出金额15%限度内抵减当年度因那盈利事业所得税额2."},{"start":13873.463,"end":13899.97,"text":"于支出金额10%限度内自当年度起三年内抵减各年度因那一例事业所得税额公司或有限合伙事业适用前项投资抵减同年度并与适用本条例或其他法律投资抵减其当年度合计得抵减总额已不超过当年度因那一例事业所得税额50%为限但依其他法律规定当年度为最后抵减年度且抵减金额不受限制者"},{"start":13901.291,"end":13907.78,"text":"其依其他法律規定計算之最後年度級減進而不在此限低效能財培育"},{"start":13908.997,"end":13932.203,"text":"細指為培育受雇員工辦理或指派參加產業創新相關技術課程培訓前項產業創新相關技術課程培訓指巨量資料人工智慧物聯網機器人精實管理數位化管理虛實整合基層製造感測器生物辨識資訊安全第五大級後續跟先進科技之行動通訊系統無人載具離岸風潮開發及運為"},{"start":13934.464,"end":13947.672,"text":"先进制成智慧电网设计电力系统规划与维运循环材料资源循环能源整合生物循环区块链等技术元素之训练活动及以"},{"start":13948.208,"end":13971.691,"text":"及其他经各中央目的事业主管机关核定之产业创新相关训练活动第一项公司或有限合伙事业应提出完整人才培育计划经各中央目的事业主管机关专案核准使适用之但股份有限公司之人才培育计划经董事会同意者不在此限第一项投资抵减之适用范围期限申请程序"},{"start":13972.532,"end":13978.777,"text":"核定機關施行期限、抵檢率及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同財政部定之"},{"start":13982.011,"end":14010.108,"text":"委員您淡化等提案第十條之一第一句首句前四字修正為最佳化第三句修正為自中華民國一百零八年一月一日起至一百十八年十二月三十一日止投資於自行使用這全新智慧機械投資於導入次世代行動通訊系統或自一百十一年一月一日起至一百十八年十二月三十一日止投資於自通安全產品或服務之相關全新硬體軟體"},{"start":14011.149,"end":14030.84,"text":"技术或技术服务以及投入节能减碳人工智慧机体电路设计软体电子设计自动化相关技术应用及开发软硬体之投资与服务采购其支出金额在同一课税年度内合计达新台币100万元以上30亿元以下之范围"},{"start":14032.148,"end":14060.108,"text":"其餘文字同行政院提案第一項第二項同行政院提案第三項同委員葛如軍等提案第三項第四項手續修正為第一項所稱次世代行動通訊軟體其餘文字同行政院提案第四項第五項同行政院提案第五項第六項第一項所稱節能減碳只為應對氣候變化或減緩和減緩全球暖化透過提升能源利用效率推廣清潔能源減少"},{"start":14061.109,"end":14081.763,"text":"碳排放等方式以降低能源消耗及温室气体排放之技术投资软硬体及服务采购第七项第一项所称人工智慧技术为使用机器学习深度学习等演算法使电脑能够从大数据中学习分析并做出预测实现工作流程自动化提高生产效率"},{"start":14082.623,"end":14103.521,"text":"并广泛应用于自动驾驶内容生成、智能推荐系统及资料挖掘、分析等领域之技术。第八项,第一项所称机体电路设计软体、电子设计自动化技术为使用软体工具及方法,用于协助设计、验证及和制造机体电路,并涵盖布局与布线。"},{"start":14104.241,"end":14118.255,"text":"模擬驗證與物理設計等各設計階段提高機體電路設計之效率和準確性加速產品之開發及創新第九項同行政院提案第八項第十項前段修正為前六項智慧機械"},{"start":14119.594,"end":14141.963,"text":"次世代行动通讯系统或自通安全产品或服务以及投入节能减碳能工智慧机体电路设计软体电子设计自动化相关技术应用及开发软硬体制投资与服务采购投资抵减之适用范围其余文字同行政院提案第九项第十七条之一第一项第二句末改为重大"},{"start":14143.323,"end":14166.376,"text":"情節重大情勢者莫具改為其個年度投資抵減金額其文字同委員葛如軍等提案第一款及第二款同委員葛如軍等提案前向人才培育細指辦理安排或指派受雇員工參加產業創新技術課程培訓以促進專業知識和技能之提升前向產業創新技術課程細指與人工智慧智慧"},{"start":14167.196,"end":14186.703,"text":"制造绿能科技与永续治理循环经济服务创新健康医疗研发制裁生成式人工会资安技术深度学习人工智慧系统平台智慧显示科技影像处理与分析自然语言处理智慧物联网科技智慧制造技术"},{"start":14187.643,"end":14200.073,"text":"智慧機器人、新興能源材料、奈米原件光電與儲能原件等研究、再生能源系統、新世代替代能源、節能科技、智慧電網、油電車輛、電動車輛系統等與產業創新相關並能提升"},{"start":14205.658,"end":14223.129,"text":"专业智能之技术训练活动申请核准适用第一项规定投资抵减之公司其当年度投入于产业创新人才培育支出不得适用其他法律为鼓励产业创新人才培育目的提供之所得税优惠"},{"start":14224.537,"end":14247.208,"text":"公司於同一年度申請核准適用第一項規定之投資抵減或與本條例或其他法律規定之投資抵減合併適用時其當年度合計抵減總額已不超過當年度因應利失業所得稅額50%為限但依其他法律規定當年度為最後抵減年度且抵減金額不受限制者不在此限前五項投資"},{"start":14248.208,"end":14260.979,"text":"抵减之适用范围资格条件一定规模申请期限申请程序核定机关当年度合计得抵减总额之计算及其他相关事项之办法由中央主管机关会同财政部定之"},{"start":14262.256,"end":14280.09,"text":"委員楊瓊英等提案第十條之一第一項第三具修正為投資於自行使用之全新智慧機械第五代行動通訊系統自通安全產品或服務能工智慧產品或服務節能減碳之相關全新"},{"start":14280.919,"end":14309.769,"text":"硬體之後其餘文字同線型條文第1項第2項至第6項同線型條文第7項於第5代行動通訊系統後修正為動號自通安全產品或服務人工智慧產品或服務節能減碳等文字其餘同線型條文第7項第72條除第6項手續修正為本條例中華民國112年1月19日修正公布之條文實行期間增列第7項本條例中華民國"},{"start":14310.529,"end":14340.089,"text":"全年全月全日修正之第十条之一,实行期间自一百十四年一月一日起至一百十八年十二月三十一日止,其余同现行条文。委员和新存等提案第十条之一,第一项第三句后修正为自中华民国一百零八年一月一日起至一百二十一年十二月三十一日止,投资于自行使用之全新智慧机械投资于导入第五代行动通讯系统或自一百一十一年。"},{"start":14341.249,"end":14358.276,"text":"1月1日起至121年12月31日止投资于自通安全产品或服务或自114年1月1日至121年12月31日止投资人工智慧产品或服务节能减碳至相关全新硬体软体技术"},{"start":14359.016,"end":14382.642,"text":"或技術服務其支出金額在同一課稅年度內合計達新台幣100萬元以上20億元以下之範圍其餘文字同縣型條文第一項第二項之第六項同縣型條文第七項除莫具修正為優化企業營運或生產製造效能其文字同行政院提案第六項第八項及第九項同行政院提案第七項及第九項"},{"start":14383.482,"end":14411.216,"text":"委員邱瑩等提案第十條之一第一項第三具修正為投資於自行使用之全新智慧機械投資於導入第五代行動通訊系統自通安全產品或服務人工智慧產品或服務節能減碳之相關全新硬體軟體技術或技術服務其支出金額在同一課稅年度內合計達新台幣100萬元以上20億元以下之範圍其餘文字同行政院提案第一項第二項是第五項同行政院提案"},{"start":14412.196,"end":14433.322,"text":"第6項同委員何新淳等提案條文第7項第7項至第9項同行政院提案第7項至第9項第72條增列第7項本條例中華民國全年全月全日修正至第10條施行期間自114年1月1日起至118年12月31日止委員蔡其昌等提案第10條之一"},{"start":14434.302,"end":14457.786,"text":"第一項除條文中改為18億元其餘文字同委員邱瑩等提案第一項第二項同行政院提案條文第三項刪除人工智慧等字其餘條文同現行條文第四項及第五項同行政院提案條文第六項第一項所稱人工智慧系指以機器為基礎之系統該系統具自主運行能力"},{"start":14458.266,"end":14469.613,"text":"透过输入或感测经由机器学习与演算法可为明确或隐含之目标实现预测内容建议或决策等影响实体或虚拟环境之产出者"},{"start":14470.868,"end":14496.556,"text":"第七項第一項所稱節能減碳細值以提高能源使用效率達成能源耗用減少進而降低溫室氣體排放者第八項同行政院提案條文第九項首具修正為前八項智慧機械第五代行動通訊系統自通安全人工智慧或節能減碳之產品或服務其餘文字同行政院提案第七十二條增訂第七項本條例中華民國春年春月"},{"start":14497.276,"end":14509.457,"text":"全日修正之第十条之一条文实行期间自114年1月1日起至118年12月31日止其余文字同现行条文台湾民众党立法院党团提案"},{"start":14510.916,"end":14534.547,"text":"第十條第一項第三具修正為自中華民國108年1月1日起至118年12月31日止投資於自行使用這全新智慧機械投資於導入次世代行動通訊系統或自111年1月1日起至118年12月31日止投資於資通安全產品或服務人工智慧產品或服務潛能檢探之相關全新"},{"start":14535.307,"end":14562.944,"text":"硬体软体技术或技术服务其支出金额在同一课税年度内合计达新台币100万元以上30亿元以下之范围其文字同行政院提案第一项第二项同行政院提案第二项第三项除第二句修正为指运用物联网机器人精实管理数位化管理虚实整合基层制造或感测器之智慧技术元素其余同行政院提案第三项第四项据所修正为第一项所称次世代行动通讯系统"},{"start":14564.198,"end":14592.024,"text":"莫具增加亦涵蓋其下一代及未來更次世代所發展出之行動通訊技術者其餘文字同行政院提案第四項第五項同行政院提案第五項第六項同委員何欣淳等提案第七項第七項同委員林在化等提案第六項第八項同行政院提案第八項第九項首具修正為前八項智慧機械次世代行動通訊系統或自通安全產品或服務人工智慧節能減碳投資抵減之適用範圍"},{"start":14592.944,"end":14621.437,"text":"其余文字同行政院提案第九項委員協議共等提案第十條之一第一項前四句修正為最佳化第三句修正為自中華民國108年1月1日起至118年12月31日止投資於自行使用這全新智慧機械第五代行動通訊系統自通安全產品或服務人工智慧產品或服務節能減碳這相關全新硬體軟體技術或技術服務其支出金額在同課稅年度內合計達新台幣100萬元以上"},{"start":14622.917,"end":14649.177,"text":"20亿元以下之范围其文字同现行条文第一项第二项之第九项同行政院提案条文第二项之第九项第72条增订第七项本条例中华民国全年全日修正之第十条之一实行期间自114年1月1日起至118年12月31日止委员邱志伟等提案第十条第一项续文除于第二句后增加或投资"},{"start":14650.154,"end":14664.054,"text":"或投资并购国内或营运总部在国内之新创事业等字其余文字同现行条文第一款手续修正为与支出或投资并购金额25%限度内第二款手续修正为与支出或投资"},{"start":14665.708,"end":14679.846,"text":"並購金額百分之二十限度內其文字同線型條文第二項同線型條文第二三條之一除第一項第二句修正為自中華民國一百十四年一月一日起第一款出資總額修正為新台幣五千萬元第二款首句出"},{"start":14681.087,"end":14703.457,"text":"總額修正為1500萬元 目據修正為或至少達新台幣2億元第三款手續出資總額修正為3000萬元 目據修正為或至少達新台幣3億元第四款手續出資總額修正為5000萬元 目據修正為或至少達新台幣3億元其餘文字同行政院提案第一項第二項居中修正不受第一項"},{"start":14704.799,"end":14727.828,"text":"規定限制其餘文字同行政院提案第二項第三項及第四項同線型條文第四項及第五項第五項及第六項手續中項次修正為第三項其餘文字同線型條文第六項及第七項第七項及第八項手續中項次修正為第三項其餘文字同線型條文第八項及第九項第九項目據修正為設立未滿八年或公開發行前者"},{"start":14729.147,"end":14756.52,"text":"其餘文字同行政院提案第9項第10項除去中修正為在我國境內設立直接或間接控制子公司或分公司其餘文字同行政院提案第10項第11項除去中於有限合夥事業時收出資總額後增加累計投資金額其餘文字同行政院提案第11項第12項除手續項次修正為第3項其餘文字同現行條文第13項"},{"start":14757.941,"end":14776.232,"text":"第二十三条之二第一项除手续中年限修正为成立未满八年募据增加该个人适用本项规定每年得减除之金额合计以新台币一千万元为限其文字同行政院提案第一项公司或有限合伙事业以现金投资于前项锁定高风险新创"},{"start":14777.333,"end":14805.692,"text":"事业公司或且对同一公司当年度投资金额达新台币300万元投资于成立未满8年之高风险新创事业公司于成为该公司股东达3年之当年度得以其取得该公司股票之价款20%限度内抵减当年度应纳盈利事业所得税额其每年得抵减总额已不超过该公司或有限合伙事业当年度应纳盈利事业所得税额50%为限"},{"start":14808.154,"end":14828.264,"text":"前項公司或有限合夥事業如為創業投資事業應由其股東或合夥人按該創業投資事業投資於成立未滿8年之高風險新創事業公司之金額依其持有該創業投資事業股份或出資比例計算投資金額於創業投資事業成為該"},{"start":14831.485,"end":14841.719,"text":"高風險新創事業公司股東達3年至當年度按投資金額至20%限度內抵減因納盈利事業所得稅額或按投資金額50%限度內至當年度個人綜合所得總額中減除"},{"start":14847.066,"end":14861.489,"text":"其每年得抵减总额已不超过该股东或合伙人当年度应纳盈利事业所得税额50%为限个人或股东或合伙人每年得减除之金额而即以新台币1000万元为限第二项公司"},{"start":14862.31,"end":14887.075,"text":"或有限合夥事業前項創業投資事業之股東或合夥人於同一年度合併適用其二項投資抵檢及其他投資抵檢時其當年度合計得抵檢總額已不超過當年度因納營利事業所得稅額或綜合所得稅額50%為限但依其他法律規定當年度為最後抵檢年度且抵檢金額不受限制者不在此限"},{"start":14887.675,"end":14911.164,"text":"第一项个人 第二项公司或有限合伙事业第三项创业投资事业之股东或合伙人适用投资抵减之要件高风险新创事业公司之适用范围与资格条件申请期限申请程序持有股份或成为股东之期间计算核定机关及其他相关事项之办法由中央主管机关会同财政部定之"},{"start":14912.435,"end":14927.763,"text":"第23條之四為鼓勵創業投資事業投資新創事業公司個人或盈利事業原始任股或英募屬於第32條規定之新創業投資事業因創立或擴充而發行之晉名股票"},{"start":14928.363,"end":14949.441,"text":"或出資參與屬於第32條規定之有限合夥創業投資事業持有時間達4年以上且該創業投資事業於設立5年內投資於新創事業公司並取得該公司之新發行股份資金額達10收資本額或有限合夥契約約定出資額之百分之"},{"start":14950.16,"end":14969.525,"text":"三十者 於該創業投資事業達成投資新創事業公司比例之當年度得以其在該創業投資事業之投資金額20%限度內自當年度其五年內抵減各年度應納所得稅額其每一年度得抵減總額以不超過當年度應納所得稅額50%為限前項所稱投資"},{"start":14973.387,"end":14981.746,"text":"与新创事业公司之金额细指投资于成立未满8年之国内货营运总部在国内之新创事业公司之合计"},{"start":14983.223,"end":15009.981,"text":"创业投资事业应于设立或扩充时与本条与第23条之二之间则依适用一经责定不得变更本条各项之资格条件申请期限申请程序持有期间计算和定机关及其他相关事项之办法由中央主管机关会同财政部定之第72条除第7项修正为本条例中华民国全年全月全日修正之第23条之一第23条之二及第"},{"start":15011.362,"end":15032.235,"text":"23條之四 實行期間自114年1月1日起至118年12月31日止其餘文字同行政院提案條文委員陣陣前等提案第十條之一 第一項第三具修正為投資於自行使用之智慧機械第五代行動通訊系統資通安全"},{"start":15033.524,"end":15033.764,"text":"第二項是第五項"},{"start":15055.714,"end":15085.075,"text":"同行政院提案第六項及第七項同委員邱穎穎等提案第六項及第七項第八項第一項所稱再生能源自用發電設備及儲能設備指依再生能源發展條例及再生能源發電設備設置管理辦法申請設置且利用再生能源自用發電設備及第二型及第三型再生能源發電設備及儲能設備其生產或儲存之電能不銷售於再生能源"},{"start":15087.136,"end":15111.531,"text":"第9項同行政院提案條文第9項第10項前段聚首改為前9項文字終於節能減淡後增加再生能源自用發電設備及儲能設備其餘文字同行政院提案第9項委員吳立華等所提第22條條文修正動議除第3項第3款修正為"},{"start":15112.757,"end":15133.659,"text":"違反國際條約及協定之義務第四款修正為侵害智慧財產權增列第五款侵害原住民文化權者增列第六款申請投資公司或有限合夥事業有重大勞資糾紛或重大環境污染之情勢者其他條文同行政院提案"},{"start":15136.884,"end":15152.133,"text":"委員賴瑞隆等四人所提修正動議第一項刪除起氣年限並增列自用再生能源發電儲能等文字其餘條文與原條文相同第七十二條第七項"},{"start":15154.338,"end":15173.693,"text":"修正為本條例中華民國某年某月某日修正之第十條之一第二三條之一及第二三條之二施行期間自一百十四年一月一日起至一百十八年十二月三十一日止及與原條文相同以上宣讀並請參閱關係文書及書面資料宣讀完畢"},{"start":15516.783,"end":15517.517,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":15732.227,"end":15732.367,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":15863.254,"end":15864.394,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":15950.899,"end":15951.954,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":16201.897,"end":16205.333,"text":"MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":16361.874,"end":16361.995,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":16483.038,"end":16485.316,"text":"MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":16534.916,"end":16536.698,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":16655.704,"end":16657.033,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":16777.466,"end":16777.546,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":16827.841,"end":16842.17,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":16948.703,"end":16948.784,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":17003.121,"end":17004.241,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":17071.203,"end":17094.457,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":17103.072,"end":17103.153,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":17132.565,"end":17132.646,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":17217.202,"end":17217.282,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":17264.838,"end":17288.893,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":17343.547,"end":17344.855,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":17389.353,"end":17390.606,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":17444.209,"end":17445.555,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":17525.513,"end":17525.594,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":17937.222,"end":17937.303,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":18102.773,"end":18130.395,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":18135.63,"end":18136.852,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":18227.705,"end":18256.334,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":18273.817,"end":18274.718,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":18317.708,"end":18318.643,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":18603.032,"end":18603.746,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":18655.837,"end":18656.443,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":18716.127,"end":18719.786,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":18776.408,"end":18804.405,"text":"感谢您的观看"},{"start":18891.28,"end":18897.723,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":18955.657,"end":18955.757,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":19001.056,"end":19007.824,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":19066.237,"end":19067.073,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":19101.929,"end":19106.063,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":19209.13,"end":19209.21,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":19383.533,"end":19385.947,"text":"MING PAO CANADA // MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":19516.937,"end":19517.274,"text":"谢谢观看 欢迎订阅我的频道"},{"start":19623.087,"end":19624.019,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":19662.703,"end":19667.346,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":19696.857,"end":19697.079,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":20177.333,"end":20181.8,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":20362.108,"end":20385.48,"text":"明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":20419.514,"end":20440.907,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":20565.273,"end":20565.354,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":20597.85,"end":20597.93,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":20816.118,"end":20816.951,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":21163.168,"end":21163.57,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":21385.954,"end":21386.055,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":21577.711,"end":21600.496,"text":"好來我們繼續開會現在進行協商來賽場委員有王世堅委員陳廷輝委員好第10條的部分請經濟部先生說明一下第10條是本席的提案來那個市長今天沒有在地方"},{"start":21610.812,"end":21633.141,"text":"好 你針對我的部分 現在處理第10條喔 第10條 這個第10條跟委員報告因為那個是那個研發頭底啦那研發頭底因為如果在這邊把那個併購那一塊把它放進來其實跟原來的那個條例是比較不太合適那其實這個可以 如果未來有需要可以在那個氣併網那一邊來做放在哪裡 氣併網"},{"start":21636.762,"end":21658.301,"text":"七月併購法之前有跟我說過我也覺得我也可以接受啦那還有沒有要補充的第四條還沒有補充的沒有沒有還有一個抵檢率因為抵檢率那個是租稅衡平的問題如果你把它調到那麼高因為我們還有其他的一些條例像生計條例等相關"},{"start":21660.496,"end":21684.03,"text":"還有那個後面的那個十之一的這樣的一個稅率的問題如果調的話可能所有的都要牽動到好 了解那個你也跟我說明過我也可以理解那我們第十條我們不許修正維持原條文大家明見好那我們繼續處理委員提案的部分"},{"start":21685.017,"end":21701.216,"text":"有葛如君 楊瓊英 邱毅英 臺灣民眾黨團 本席還有鄭振前好 十之一的部分還有一個是讓行政團隊先說明行政部先說明 經濟部先說明"},{"start":21711.254,"end":21722.862,"text":"那個次長可以拜託因為這些委員他們提案那你們去溝通完的結果跟你們現在的狀況對啊你要不要把你們現在然後你們認知這樣很簡單"},{"start":21729.585,"end":21738.392,"text":"簡簡單單市長市長你就說跟院版最大差別在哪裡我看了這些委員版本跟院版基本上都差不多"},{"start":21741.175,"end":21766.046,"text":"那個國務委員提的是要把機械原來的9項全部保留然後因為我們認為說原來的那個有一些譬如說像物聯網 精使管理或感測器這些其實現在都已經在一般的智慧機械這麼多年來它都已經有了所以這個有點像是基本配備那這一次我們有把這5項稍微調整我們就只有保留4項這一塊我們是希望是說能不能照"},{"start":21766.886,"end":21782.952,"text":"院版通過再來他有講第五代用名稱改我們是講說因為現在如果在國際上講第五代行動通訊系統就應該是可以涵蓋不用再把後續更先進科技的行動通訊去把它加進來"},{"start":21784.523,"end":21803.143,"text":"再來人工因為葛委員他們講說人工智慧技術那因為不是只有技術可能還有產品有硬體有軟體那我們行政院是有把硬體軟體把人工智慧硬體軟體涵蓋進來那葛委員他們這邊就只有談技術是比較模糊那葛委員的那個是沒有把節能減淡納進來我們有"},{"start":21804.324,"end":21814.079,"text":"那再來就是國委員是要把那個支出的金額上限把它刪掉那我們這邊是建議說還是維持我們行政院就到18億18億原本是10億"},{"start":21816.038,"end":21828.426,"text":"那施行期間 葛偉他們有講說108到118年是要自衛基建5G人工智慧那資安就是另外一條111年到118年 那我們是建議說這個時間是不是要它一次性就從114年到118年這樣子"},{"start":21837.995,"end":21863.324,"text":"林大華委員他們講的第一個也是智慧機器要九項那我們是建議說還是維持原來的四項那他把那個我們現在講的第五代把它稱為次世代其實第五代都已經包含這個部分那再來他講的人工技術也是跟前面講的一樣我們是有包含軟硬體他這邊講的是比較比較沒有涵蓋面那麼大那再來我們節能減碳他的定義是包含"},{"start":21863.925,"end":21871.408,"text":"清潔能源那因為我們定義包含公用節能跟製程改善這個兩個而且跟清潔能源是不一樣"},{"start":21872.462,"end":21893.527,"text":"我們節能減碳跟這個是不一樣所以這部分也是那那個林德華林委員他們有講說新增除了人工智慧這邊要增加一個集體電路設計軟體電子設計之外這個東西其實是在我們在做IC設計的一個這個東西沒有必要在這裡面因為涵蓋在軟體裡面"},{"start":21895.547,"end":21918.996,"text":"市長您知道說現在基本上我們院版的部分都有把這些委員所都已經有包含進去只是我們是大象可是這裡面全部都有包含進去你這樣講就好了好不好那差別在支持金額它是30億我們這邊是18億因為其他委員版本都有18億跟21億18億跟21億差在哪裡"},{"start":21923.268,"end":21945.928,"text":"18億跟21億差在哪裡啊?今天就會贏問的這個是差在應用的那個加速的問題啦那又有人沒有以為恥啦,我是不是建議委員會是不是...來,張議員我是提那個30億嘛,我看了國民黨葛如荊跟林黛華那個案子是100萬以上,就等於沒有上限了啦"},{"start":21946.901,"end":21957.946,"text":"這個金額可以談一談 現在最主要我覺得應該是這可能不是經濟部的意見吧是不是財政部認為稅損太多是不是有精算過嗎有有精算 要請財政部財政部說明一下那個理事長"},{"start":21964.167,"end":21987.543,"text":"其實我們是參考了就是以往他們那個舊的就是現行的那個資基投底的相關規定那大概只有就是百分之二的人百分之二的家屬他是會超限那現在因為我們把這個10億已經提高到18億配合這次增加節能檢測跟人工智慧我們是覺得應該已經符合這個企業的需求"},{"start":21988.283,"end":22013.504,"text":"但是就是說那個而且這18億也是我們跟經濟部在行政院討論以後決定最後決定的金額這樣子 以上報告好賴慧蓉抱歉應該是兩部分他一題兩面嘛你本來是10億然後現在很多委員有提18、20跟30因為有人提沒有上限嘛他應該是一題兩面啦就是說一方面除了財稅上面的減少之外你如果給他一些優惠"},{"start":22014.525,"end":22040.133,"text":"他如果做得好也增加稅收所以我才說一體兩面應該要精算過一個數目字出來我們也大概估算了一下其實這兩個就是如果是以18億跟21億來算的話大概差到差不多3億元左右所以財政部的立場是要堅持18億還是如果20億可以接受因為我們是覺得院板其實我們有充分討論所以是不是建議以財政部的立場我們是希望能夠支持院板"},{"start":22042.655,"end":22060.331,"text":"我是建議這樣因為如果一個整數啦因為其實如果你是差那個3億的話我不知道他那個怎麼樣那因為我覺得其實整個21下的整體上面對於整個社會上那我覺得既然整個大家都要在推廣這整件事件上面我是希望說看是才能不能"},{"start":22061.392,"end":22077.575,"text":"也接受啦 如果我們可以一個整數上面的話我覺得我們都希望 這些都是我們希望鼓勵的產業啦那希望鼓勵的事業 那我希望財政部能夠去接受那另外我想要再補充問一下自用的再生能源發電跟儲能的部分經濟部跟財政部的看法 把視頻也帶一邊說明一下"},{"start":22077.95,"end":22106.677,"text":"因為那個再生能源跟那個有一部分我們這裡是講節約能源那個減碳那個那一部分我建議是不是在執法那一邊因為這個還有涉及到有一些是能源用電大戶再生能源的相關的一個議題我是說如果要討論我們在那個執法那邊再來考慮它的使用方法一定要排除說你法定義務你本身要要進的你不能把它拉到這裡去市長要問一下你如果放自用的話這個部分你在執法方跟在母法方會有什麼差別"},{"start":22106.857,"end":22136.278,"text":"就是如果自用再生能源因為那個是大象大象的話如果這樣弄我覺得會比較可能會跟再生能源那邊它本身要進的醫院所以你們建議自用的再生能源發電跟儲能部分放在執法來定制而且要自用而且要限制這個宰名是自用的要限制它的那個所以你們是同意這個方向只是希望放在執法不要放在母法我們是建議說如果要討論是不是在執法上面去做放在母法有什麼差別"},{"start":22137.439,"end":22155.555,"text":"文物法它這樣弄我覺得範圍太寬了所以你們希望再訂那如果你在這個部分把它訂得更清楚呢訂得更清楚因為可能沒辦法去避免到你沒辦法去搭配說把哪一個條例排除掉OK 好了解"},{"start":22157.867,"end":22173.843,"text":"現行條文是100萬元以上,10億元以下,那行政版本已經增加了8億了8億也經過精算過,也跨部會協調討論過嘛所以它不是這樣半倍,半倍說半倍到十倍而已,它有精算過啦"},{"start":22175.758,"end":22179.521,"text":"我真的很感謝就是說大家不分藍綠白還有行政部門大家都支持嘛那現在就是說"},{"start":22199.318,"end":22224.18,"text":"因為訊息問變我們有提10億的 有20億 有30億那現在行政部門是說18億那你說你是八成 那個理由是什麼因為我覺得它是一個上限它一個上限不一定每一個人都可以達到它有一定的那個 對不對所以你如果反而是寬的這樣對我們產業是不是幫助因為你要修一個法"},{"start":22225.081,"end":22240.489,"text":"我想請我們 因為我原本也是提10億而已但是我想提一個因為也有人說沒有上限 大家不能沒有上限但是也有20億也有30億的我倒是覺得應該是寬裂 因為它有它的"},{"start":22241.209,"end":22260.287,"text":"他要申請有他的標準有他的條件他不可能會如此就是能夠隨便都可以拿到上限但是我們現在真的因為包括本席的提案也就增加了項目我希望本席的提案都跟其實跟大家也都蠻雷同那我反而覺得給主席台"},{"start":22260.968,"end":22283.761,"text":"建議就是說因為大家用心去提出項目的時候如果項目有的應該都可以納入因為這樣子可以讓我們的產業更加的多元去選擇因為比如說我提的也有張祺凱提的我沒提我提的可能也有別人沒提的那我認為如果大家看過在這個項目很重要"},{"start":22284.681,"end":22302.238,"text":"項目如果有的應該是要都納入那金額的部分是不是再討論一下因為你說你弄一個八成那我們要修一個法沒那麼容易那沒那麼容易的時候如果我們的產業訊息萬變又跟世界接軌尤其現在的情況AI智慧什麼減碳"},{"start":22303.999,"end":22330.428,"text":"速度會很快我倒是覺得應該要高寬裂一點然後你條件設好這樣子才能夠真正幫助產業要不然你一下子可能半年一年還不夠那就麻煩了我想剛剛那個所有的一個項目那個次長已經有解釋過就是說全部其實我們委員所提案的都是納在裡面都有"},{"start":22330.868,"end":22357.971,"text":"只是他寫的是大範圍沒有寫那麼詳細對 他的更寬啦他的更寬不是沒有納入是更寬那第二個部分是說因為我們這個是一個範圍我覺得我們不用拘泥在所謂的18億我覺得範圍就應該是你說100萬以上20億以下這個我覺得沒有任何問題不是說我一次就一定是怎麼樣"},{"start":22358.852,"end":22374.462,"text":"它是一個範圍所以我覺得我們反而就像剛剛我們大家認知的其實要修一次的法沒有那麼簡單那如果說隨著整個世代潮流的一個趨勢我們反而是把這樣的韌舉先拉開"},{"start":22376.444,"end":22388.214,"text":"讓大家如果有精進的部分 去做一個可以適用的範圍我覺得這可能是比較大家的共識其實我也是認為 應該是要100萬元以上 20億元以下的範圍"},{"start":22396.331,"end":22416.549,"text":"因為這個是用租稅來鼓勵啦租稅鼓勵要贊同 經驗的部分財政部立場不要影響太大我可以理解 是不是這樣啦主席讓我講完我是建議這樣 因為大家其實都表達意見那我看到兩位次長也都表達了看法"},{"start":22416.749,"end":22428.258,"text":"那我是建議那其實大致上的意見都吸納進去了啦那剩下的有些剩餘到那個額度那我是建議其實可以主席可以做個決定啦我是覺得應該是大家都可以接受的範圍內不然這樣好不好 這樣我們就增加2億到20億好不好"},{"start":22433.024,"end":22450.959,"text":"就這樣啦 十八到二十八 說實在對稅收沒什麼用但是你這個多2億 對他們有租稅的鼓勵效果啦其實人工智慧就先好好發展 要不然稅收還增加咧 也有可能 也有可能稅收增加這些包括硬體軟體都很貴啦 而且他們對未來是有幫助的"},{"start":22456.738,"end":22479.238,"text":"財政部理事長,如果有增加個兩億,應該對稅收影響不大吧?基本上當然是對稅收影響不是很大,但是我們其實當時為什麼會堅持說希望用18億,主要就是因為會超限的都是一些大型的企業啦那其實我們十條之一當時的目的就是希望能夠鼓勵中小企業轉型升級"},{"start":22480.739,"end":22500.457,"text":"結果會超額的大概就是少數的那幾家大型企業所以我們才覺得說也許在我們現在評估的額度上面也許已經是比較適當了不過這個當然我們還是尊重最後委員會審查的結果聽說你是用21的是超大型的公司才會的啊鍾小新不都會在18億以下"},{"start":22501.778,"end":22520.184,"text":"這個我們可以再問一下那現在會適用到這個的有哪些的部分目前的話以目前的狀況目前我們統計資料來看的話我們如果用112年度他們適用的狀況來看總共有1476家的企業來申請其中只有9家是超限的"},{"start":22522.076,"end":22536.073,"text":"18億有10億還是原來的10億那如果18億的話會有幾家18億因為現在還不知道可能會更少我們增加了人工智慧跟檢查因為我們增加了那個人工智慧項目更多了那個費用還會在我們上面"},{"start":22539.558,"end":22567.537,"text":"我覺得我們不能以以往說十億有一千多少家然後只有幾家因為我們現在所面臨的跟以往所面臨的條件跟挑戰是不一樣的是不一樣的以前淨零碳排沒有那麼多以前智慧的也沒有那麼多但是你也不要看我們中小企業我們中小企業現在有很多他轉型成功的他轉型成功我們其實是需要幫助這個"},{"start":22568.317,"end":22585.927,"text":"我本來還想提一個修正動議就上限到22億去協助那如果大家同意我們就提一個修正動議就是20億為基準因為我覺得這樣子OK啦好不好我們提一個修正動議就20億就好了已經有修正動議了"},{"start":22587.228,"end":22594.65,"text":"財政部理事長我可以理解但是項目已經擴大很多你不曉得有多少家會來申請所以你的狀況不一樣如果你項目沒有變你要提高這個金額也說不過去所以我是不是增加2億的話大概對稅收影響不大然後我覺得對這些需要企業是有幫助的"},{"start":22618.138,"end":22642.224,"text":"抱歉我覺得是我嘛抱歉我覺得有一個基本概念今天要釐清一下今天為什麼是經濟跟財政的聯繫今天財政部來你不是只有看到稅存你要看到稅增也有可能經濟發展你看這個產創條例為什麼大家都這麼重視是讓我們產業是可以創新可以發展的那我們把這個項目擴大之後"},{"start":22643.503,"end":22658.978,"text":"淨零碳排一方面是它是一個世界的趨勢嘛一方面對人體好的同時永續發展它在經濟發展上面也有貢獻啊那你智慧這個人工智慧它只要進來以後它那個整個企業發展它稅收就會增加所以財政部的那個次長"},{"start":22660.984,"end":22688.242,"text":"我這一個基本概念我們就要說你不是只有算稅損你可能要把那個稅增的增加的部分你要算進去啦所以不要太堅持一定要在18到20而且要讓民眾知道要讓民眾對整個整體的經濟發展是有幫助不是只有在稅整這一塊可能在稅的說的增加也有可能出現好不好從正面去看這個事情有做稅評也有把誘發效果都算出來誘發效果算出來以後其實我們18億有些地方會增加對整個國家發展是好的嘛好不好"},{"start":22688.782,"end":22712.768,"text":"我們這個百分之三十那個上限並沒有取消並沒有跟蹤只是那個額度增加比原本多增兩億那我覺得這個擴大項目那麼多那我覺得應該是可以增加兩億如果文匯公司的話這個早上我們在巡打的時候林志遠說這個是很重要對於產業的轉型發展很重要嘛好"},{"start":22714.348,"end":22726.536,"text":"來我們就一個那個總決議弄一個修正動議啦就20那個修正動議不是已經有提了嗎好那已經宣讀了嘛那個對那個宣讀過了你們再把它連署下來"},{"start":22728.028,"end":22750.787,"text":"連署也可以啦或你們要加提也可以啦那我們就是金額就100萬以下這個100萬以上20億以下的範圍啦其他的都照院版通過好 謝謝那個項目都有納進來嗎都有就以院版的文字嘛院版為主我們院版的範圍是比較大的更大"},{"start":22752.023,"end":22756.469,"text":"好啦 那執法麻煩將來就那麽好來 大家翻到22頁我們處理第12條17條之一來 第12頁"},{"start":22767.028,"end":22793.823,"text":"那十七之一這個是由那個葛盧俊委員還有那個林太太委員他們講的人才培育啦齁那這個其實剛剛我早上在打詢的時候就已經有說明過說其實人才培育現在都是列為費用的那我們其實在政府單位裡都有在做人才培育這一塊我們在輔導費用補助費用也都非常多那我們是建議說這邊是不是就不要去有那個租稅抵減這樣子"},{"start":22795.544,"end":22813.459,"text":"好 各位委員好 那我們就不予修正不予增訂那第一處理 第二十二條第十八頁那第一步先說明一下"},{"start":22817.955,"end":22835.948,"text":"22條你要不要說明一下22條只有一個臨時動議就是那個武力法務委員早上有講的要把那個影響原住民還有智慧財產權那個那我們是建議這個因為這個是屬於對外投資"},{"start":22836.989,"end":22850.839,"text":"都在投資的話如果你類這個應該是他的違反智慧財產權或是說你對當地原住民的權益應該是要到當地國那一邊那我們在審查的時候我們可以來提醒他們你們可以用附帶決議來處理對對對用附帶決議來處理因為吳衛原很關心這個議題對對對我們用附帶決議來處理用附帶決議好附帶決議幫我寫一下你們寫一個寫一個提案附帶決議"},{"start":22860.97,"end":22875.762,"text":"好 那我們22條的部分就按照院版通過那那個剛剛那個那個立法那個修正動議再請主席提一下來 一屬於第23條之一"},{"start":22879.512,"end":22896.011,"text":"23條之一就有幾個意見啦一個就是那個新什麼時候成立的新狀要來適用這一次的齁那因為我們之前提的我們這一次是先是要從新的規定就從114年1月1號開始因為這樣界限才會清楚啦不然如果你用"},{"start":22896.451,"end":22904.895,"text":"就跟前面那個我們那個那個實質一樣如果是要把時間又涵蓋太大會會界限會分不清楚我們是希望是說是114年1月1號起新設立創業投資事業才適用這第一個第二個就是那個實收出資額的門檻我們因為我們本來是有3億現在降到1億了"},{"start":22919.983,"end":22938.676,"text":"那我1.5億那我們現在是建議是說因為我們這個都有去去試算有啦 而且經過我的討論你沒有跟我說明我了解啦現在是說這一部分是不是我們我確認說你們有沒有跟這是我的學生案有沒有跟那個財政部有經過精算你是經的"},{"start":22940.712,"end":22961.37,"text":"包括這個出資額1.5億的部分包括第三年時數出資額還有幾年幾年分年出資的各個比例這個問題都有確定過這個我們都有計算過而且我們也都把因為這個部分是比那個原來的條文寬鬆因為原來是3億那現在降為1.5億那你們也跟我討論過這個都是討論"},{"start":22963.892,"end":22973.898,"text":"我想我可以接受行政院的版本那23條之一我們是不是按照行政院版本通過23條之二"},{"start":22977.165,"end":22994.457,"text":"二三條之後是那個有那個天使投資人的那個現在就是在那個連線我們就說這裡是邱委員提到說未滿五年計算持股兩年那個投資金額減除比例50%所有都減除這個我早上我也諮詢過你我也請教過"},{"start":22997.519,"end":23006.408,"text":"這個最多是八年左右的 新創企業那國外的立法會包括日本 包括英國他們也有到十年的所以這些可以縮短到八年"},{"start":23010.674,"end":23011.815,"text":"那個主席 本席認為說剛剛連次說的說你的點要落點在114年1月1號新創的"},{"start":23032.066,"end":23051.733,"text":"新的新的新的因為跟我們報告就跟前面實質一樣因為有一些改變有一些改變的時候那你這個會斷層可是你之前成立的你現在因為他已經投下去你要再重新試用後面的會有點問題可是這個會有一點問題譬如說我們現在主要就是說113年12月31號到期"},{"start":23058.455,"end":23081.586,"text":"那人家已經做一半的那我們現在目的就是說以往前五年的那有些項目他是沒有的那我們都願意把他納進來那你才說114你要新的那這樣子你會真的會是被公辦而已啊"},{"start":23082.628,"end":23096.525,"text":"不是事半功倍因為比如說我們現在有能力的我講最實際的現在中小企業真的是很辛苦那他現在已經有能力比如說他113年我真的配合你政府的大投資"},{"start":23097.954,"end":23123.864,"text":"那你以往就是因為時間到一個他很多的項目還沒有辦法申請如果你不讓他納入在這個延續我們等於是113年的12月31號到期的我們希望要嫁接過來114年啊到118年啊我們的目的是這樣子嘛那你如果說要114年重新那你會有很多的斷層啊這樣就沒有真的幫助啊"},{"start":23126.645,"end":23152.95,"text":"說明為什麼不會 為什麼沒有斷層11是這樣 因為第一個它的適用範圍不一樣我們到時候因為我們後來新增人工智慧跟節能減碳如果你是把時間往前拉的時候它那時候沒有這個項目所以為什麼我們後來時間你要切清楚就是說你應該是因為以前我們在看是用交貨或是什麼時候購買的"},{"start":23154.55,"end":23174.265,"text":"我們要算年度的投資因為這個是新增的部分所以那個時間點一定要切得一清二楚不然的話前面的人你買的譬如說我本來譬如說你是前兩年投資的但是你的投資期是三年他前面都已經弄完了你後面你這個是不應該去試用的啦所以那個時間是有因為在投資都會有delay的"},{"start":23178.449,"end":23193.426,"text":"但是現在我們還有一個考慮他目前經濟的環境所碰到的中小企業我們實在講有能力做的我想財政部跟經濟部都很清楚"},{"start":23194.977,"end":23208.895,"text":"都很清楚 這一些有一點基礎的我們要怎麼協助他這個嫁接要怎麼樣可以很平順的可以嫁接過來要不然你會變成你要強迫他在114你要重新"},{"start":23210.407,"end":23214.971,"text":"因為我們原來10條之一是在去年底落日嘛就是13年12月31號落日那當時之前它適用的條件是原來的"},{"start":23232.108,"end":23235.774,"text":"原來的範圍所以他原來範圍只要在113年12月31號以前已經訂購的他都可以再繼續試用對那因為我們114年以後是擴大試用範圍擴大試用範圍其實中考期也不會在113年就知道我們擴大試用的範圍是哪些"},{"start":23247.992,"end":23274.79,"text":"所以它一定從14年以後才會新增人工智慧人工智慧跟節能減碳新的項目它就新增的項目就可以使用對 它就可以使用要講清楚因為妳剛剛一直講要新創的公司不是新創公司不是新創公司對啦 是妳要重新來申請這樣就嫁接成功啦要重新來申請對啦 不然妳剛剛一直講新創的公司我是說要怎麼考慮不是 它是要適用新的範圍的話就要重新來申請對"},{"start":23280.727,"end":23283.038,"text":"那個好 你清楚了解嗎 我也會這樣問我聽喔"},{"start":23286.038,"end":23312.543,"text":"這個8年產業環境一直在變化你要孵化的時間一定會越來越長很多5年之內你如果沒有用5年做一個標準的話很多5年之內你就淘汰或者就經營不下去很多所以我覺得應該你進一步你要按照中企署的創新能力新創世界認定原則應該就8年其他低減上限完全中"},{"start":23313.303,"end":23337.325,"text":"我尊重運辦,體檢上不管個人,我尊重你三百萬、五百萬,五百萬是重點,這部分我支持那也不用創投個人股東,或者創投法輪股東,那也沒有關係啦但是對一個新創的支持,年限應該要拉長,因為你按照這個數據來看,成立八年的公司是最多"},{"start":23338.339,"end":23341.962,"text":"因為後面的比較成熟我們是用其他方式在協助他去做發展"},{"start":23349.963,"end":23369.399,"text":"因為剛剛早上也有提到那個國貿會他那邊是從一個是從投資的角度去看一種是從那個新創產業要再往下再延伸的發展的那個情況去看新創要多一點關心時間長久就對我們是好的你那個中企署"},{"start":23370.2,"end":23384.09,"text":"中信署你那個創新能力 新創事業認定跟你們國發基金創新天使不一樣所以我講你經濟部主管的發展你應該標準要一致所以我不是白白講八檔"},{"start":23385.936,"end":23396.679,"text":"我是按照你們中企署的原則我來定8年那其他的這個抵檢上限我不堅持還是一樣是個人300、500因為目前個人是300嘛那你增加個500就是重點國家重點產業啦"},{"start":23408.357,"end":23436.365,"text":"委員我可不可以說明一下為什麼我們覺得五年比較適當的原因因為委員你那個當然新創企業在那個經濟部中央企業署那邊他是認定八年但是因為因為我們這一條文是天使投資的概念天使投資的概念就是希望說你這個公司在剛開始成立之前剛開始草創的時候就能夠吸引一些天使來幫你這些新創事業成長那因為你一般的新創事業如果我們現在給他八年的話會變成"},{"start":23438.146,"end":23466.452,"text":"六到八年的這些新創其實都已經進入成熟期了那會變成說 本來這些天使投資人應該是投資前五年還在發展中的產業那現在會變成如果我們把它放寬到八年的話會變成它的資金會引導到成熟企業去因為大家都知道成熟企業比較會獲利那天使投資人如果說這樣的話會變成扭曲了我們原來目前確定六到八年是已經成熟了嗎對對對對因為如果我們今天把它放寬到六到八年活了過六年就是"},{"start":23467.052,"end":23484.162,"text":"一般到6、8年就是成熟 進入成熟期了那如果說我現在把它放寬會扭曲了我們本來這條的立法目的因為我們本來這條立法目的就是希望它在草創時期 新創時期那你現在已經是兩年了對 所以我們現在放寬到五年了已經參考國發會的年數放寬到五年"},{"start":23489.465,"end":23508.86,"text":"我想我們過去我們希望的那個扶植是說從有階段性的那剛剛所談的也是這樣階段性那是不是我們在這個立法議席裡面要寫跟你們說如果說他今天因為現在擔心的是說萬一在你們扶植的過程他沒有辦法"},{"start":23509.58,"end":23526.09,"text":"有一個比較好的一些知識量還是說他剛剛好在這個階段要往上了結果我們的福祉停了那是不是應該是他要進到哪一個階段在我們哪一個這樣的一個專案的部分其實我們擔心的是這個就是說"},{"start":23527.471,"end":23547.771,"text":"他當然如果在你們五年扶植就可以往上衝那最好這是我們的期待但是如果剛好在五年六年已經到了你的時間但是在第六年他剛好插了一個躍進的過程結果其實跟我們報告中技術他那個新創事業就在做這件事"},{"start":23548.391,"end":23572.929,"text":"所以說是不是在我們的立法議席當中把他寫清楚我們希望這個知青其實是引導在比較前面的這個五年然後後面的我們用透過其他方式再來協助他對就是說因為我們害怕就是說好五年那問題剛剛好在這第五年第六年可能就差那麼一點結果因為我們五年就這樣子game over了"},{"start":23573.729,"end":23598.345,"text":"那完了 有可能他再往下趴的會更快好不容易扶植到這裡了 往下趴的更快所以我覺得立法一直把它寫清楚那這就沒有什麼問題了 好不好好那關於那個低檢上限有沒有什麼意見低檢上限你八年裡面有意見你為什麼不直接就定500呢還要分重點產業"},{"start":23602.763,"end":23631.06,"text":"你行政院如果要給他一些比較提高還是要有一些條件才讓他往上走你那個五百萬虛為國家種民產業嘛對那種民產業是哪些種民產業五大信賴還有那些相關的我們現在正在推的這些你種民產業會不會太籠統太抽象不會啦他有明文哪些產業是種民產業就因為在訂資保的時候會訂得很清楚你如果"},{"start":23632.669,"end":23657.05,"text":"執法的時候因為會讓就希望讓產業很清楚主席的意思是這樣子所以你們在執法的時候類別要把它寫清楚不要只有一個重大 大家都也重大因為那個我們會公告執法要趕快訂好 把它明列清楚那你個人如果把他個人的抵檢上限增加的話會增加他的投資意願"},{"start":23659.424,"end":23684.173,"text":"你說你現在只有五百萬是重點那其他的個人是沒有改如果個人增加到五百萬你提高到五百萬那是不是個人去拿個人的錢去投資的這個意願會增加嗎那個張偉我們生計那邊最好也是跟這個一樣五百你們生計也是啊所以兩邊是我們是建立兩邊是一致的你們生計也是如此嗎"},{"start":23685.441,"end":23712.76,"text":"因為你現在正在燒他什麼時候再招來那邊又會跟我們文創業產業發展法那個部分也是嗎而且那個也是講說我希望要一致啦而且那個文創那一邊也是類別是像這樣行業別是由行政院這邊來公布的我是覺得我很贊同主席所說的就是說我們政府的橫向"},{"start":23713.641,"end":23737.009,"text":"要一樣啦你如果說你的生計也是這樣藝術文化的也這樣什麼都一樣這樣人家才會幸福嘛他會自己去歸軌道歸正確才不會亂掉才不會去做比較主席的意思應該是如此嘛我的解讀是這樣子完全跟楊委員的看法一樣如果八年改成六年也不通啊"},{"start":23741.365,"end":23752.951,"text":"跟我尾巴真的多一年而已嘛是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是不是"},{"start":23767.278,"end":23769.239,"text":"因為這裡是講那個股東投底我們是建議是說其實在二三之一或是剛剛早上那個"},{"start":23795.972,"end":23819.27,"text":"這個理事長也有提到了其實都有一些你們跟我討論過很多次這個好啦這個我可以接受啦那我們就就不以爭議不以爭議來接下來處理六十七六七沒有提啦六七之一就是那個就配合那個"},{"start":23827.563,"end":23847.388,"text":"那個獎項六七條之一只有院版沒有其他委員的提案那我們就是六七條之一就按照行政院版本通過六七條之二也沒有其他委員只有行政院版本"},{"start":23856.079,"end":23875.735,"text":"6.71是說要配我們前面講的是說在哪個年度裡面他要去申報或是說要有一些申報的程序或是說你申報的時候遇到什麼狀況他可以再展延那如果說沒有據實申報或怎麼樣會有一些罰款這樣子好"},{"start":23878.076,"end":23888.313,"text":"對 對 對 還有申請的期限 什麼情況下他可以很清楚的去把他列入原本在條文裡頭是沒有的嗎有有申請版本有 那你改什麼"},{"start":23894.186,"end":23907.18,"text":"這個跟委員報告 因為我們那個扣繳制度在鎖稅法的扣繳制度在去年修正過就是優化了他的扣繳制度把那個就是有一些如果說他申報的期間剛好碰到過年啊或者是怎樣 我們就延長"},{"start":23911.002,"end":23932.973,"text":"所以這個是配合我們所得稅法那個優化扣繳制度做的所以原本就有的條只是配合你的稅扣的這個改變啦對 只是配合我們所得稅法那邊的修正做修正OK 一致性就好好 那我們67條之一就按照行政法的通過67條之二再說明一下你們要不要稍微說明一下這是那個罰款的問題"},{"start":23934.433,"end":23962.146,"text":"也是一樣那也是配合鎖匯稅法那個鎖匯稅法的扣繳制度的修正跟六十七條是一樣的好那我們是不是六十七條之二就按照行政法通過六十七之三那個是配合那個二十二條那個如果說沒有在我們現在有規定說它一定的金額一定的基數什麼條或是一定的地區如果它有違反這個規定我們有罰則以前是沒有罰則我們現在把它增訂罰則"},{"start":23964.235,"end":23974.349,"text":"這個只有願版這條新政的喔對 按自處新台幣50萬元以上1000萬元以下 法源"},{"start":23977.007,"end":24000.285,"text":"請說明一下好嗎各位報告我們主要是參照我們現在赴大陸投資的處罰是也是處罰五萬元到兩千五百萬那因為這個是赴國外投資所以我們最低差額一樣是五萬元然後最高是到一百但是如果說我們同時會命改正或停止或撤回投資"},{"start":24000.925,"end":24027.979,"text":"如果你不改正停止或撤回投資的話就會把那個往上拉到50到1000那我要請教的是說我們依照那個大陸那個投資的這個都一樣那大陸那個投資的如果停止或撤回投資者他們的條文也是方式也是按次處分嗎金額也是一致嗎大陸投資也是 它是按次一次5萬到2千5副大陸投資的處罰是比較高的"},{"start":24028.439,"end":24044.147,"text":"那我們因為這是付國外所以我們所以你是50萬到1000萬對那這個依據是什麼1000我們也是參考國外的立法例像美國他們也是處罰到35萬美金大概也是1000萬金額好那我們67條之3我們就按照行政院版本新增通過"},{"start":24052.601,"end":24072.363,"text":"70條的部分只有願板願板那個說明一下70條是有在規範是說就是說把那個不得享有同一個事件的那個因為為了補助我們稍微去做一點文字的調整而已文字調整而已"},{"start":24074.009,"end":24101.548,"text":"70條文字調整是內容有調整還是怎麼樣就以前寫的好像沒有那麼清楚我們把那個租稅用獎勵或補助我們把它把租稅優惠這幾個字把它寫得比較清楚沒有本來沒有租稅優惠沒有變沒有變文字調整而已內容沒變嘛內容都沒變講得更清楚一點好第70條按照行政院版本通過好72條這個實行期限"},{"start":24108.236,"end":24129.807,"text":"各位委員的版本都一樣啦都趕快啦那我們就72條我們就按照行政院版本通過72條行政院版本跟各位委員提案的版本通過好 謝謝那請那個議事長們宣讀一下協商結論"},{"start":24141.383,"end":24169.409,"text":"宣讀協商結論第10條維持現行法條文不予修正第10條之一第一項後端支出金額在同一課稅年度內合計達新台幣100萬元以上20億元以下取於均照行政院提案通過及與行政院提案相同的委員提案通過第17條之一不予增訂第22條照行政院提案通過"},{"start":24170.868,"end":24178.734,"text":"附帶決議呢另有一附帶決議 當會處理 第二十三條之一第二十三條之二"},{"start":24180.086,"end":24202.525,"text":"均照行政院提案局委員提案與行政院相同提案通過第23條之4不予增訂第67條之1第67條之2新增第67條之3第70條第72條均照行政院提案局委員提案與行政院相同提案通過宣導完畢好謝謝"},{"start":24204.881,"end":24221.191,"text":"那个附带决议那个那个附带决议的吴立华那个吴立华好"},{"start":24243.079,"end":24256.363,"text":"好,我附帶記憶OK,已經寫完了我看一下市長你看一下"},{"start":24280.155,"end":24286.298,"text":"就說不用放在法律條文修正放在負債決議行政經濟部OK這能夠保障原住民權益的部分"},{"start":24299.225,"end":24312.453,"text":"這是國外來的不是 這個我們是要去國外投資的對啊我們是提醒他說我們要告訴那一國不可以對 要告訴我們我們去告訴他 你不可以讓委員會發言這樣他也不可能違反 人家國家在國外沒有啦"},{"start":24372.304,"end":24396.339,"text":"那個投資主席再去跟五立法委員再說明一下因為附帶協議沒有通過沒有通過沒有附帶協議沒有附帶協議沒有成立也沒有成立好啦好啦那個那個跟好那個"},{"start":24400.526,"end":24404.968,"text":"請問各位同仁 照剛才宣讀的協商決定通過 請問有異議有異議的話通過討論事項 鎖列議案 並按審查完略 凝聚審查報告 提報議員會討論請問需不需要交到黨上協商"},{"start":24420.063,"end":24433.658,"text":"好 不用不須交易廣告協商 因為討論有本席說明通過這條文相關法制用於授權本席及議事人員整理本日所列議程案處理完畢現在 散會"},{"start":24533.209,"end":24534.77,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"}]}},{"id":"158900","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158900","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1a3bd1d80c2e079f915a45ebd5c2e753184fcaa66e6f89fba9844353fb8ddf334f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:47:15 - 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帶話回去我再轉告我們部長是 因為本來本席是很希望是直接跟部長就教 到底什麼教育影響有限來 那國發會副主委委員好"},{"start":157.31,"end":171.155,"text":"賴清德總統在選舉的時候就來到本席的淡海新市鎮並且也講說淡海科學城新北123那其中淡海科學城裡面就是我們新市鎮二期一的計畫現在150公頃的土地"},{"start":173.456,"end":189.845,"text":"那我們也看到是說國土署現在在做這個相關的盤點那但是國發會跟經濟部要來製作產業的一個帶動那目前啊本席這兩天因為有預算的關係也有請國發會的主委國發會的同仁來這邊來說明啊但都還沒有進度啊"},{"start":190.405,"end":209.077,"text":"甚至連最基本的期程先期計畫可行性評估甚至我們問是說你到底有沒有可行性計畫來先去做研究未來我們是要往AI的人才引進比較軟體的設備還是說讓整體的還是硬體的方向沒有一個方向"},{"start":209.721,"end":228.122,"text":"好 跟委員報告因為這不是我主管的業務不過我大概知道說其實我們的六大區域的產業跟生活圈裡面的確有把這個您剛才說的淡海科學城對 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謝謝昭偉那我們是不是有請我們國發會副主委高副主委 國發會高副主委那以及經濟部我們聯事長 經濟部聯事長好"},{"start":24.922,"end":50.85,"text":"副主委跟市長那最近因為在討論整個半導體然後大廊方計畫那也希望說透過整個AI半導體的發展可以把台灣從高雄到屏東台南嘉義這樣的一個這個半導體的一個產業鏈然後可以把它串在一起那當然嘉義目前有一個很大的優勢"},{"start":51.73,"end":79.166,"text":"就是台積電的這個COWASCOWAS廠它目前是把嘉義當作中心所以COWAS它大概就是先進封裝的一個技術所以大概未來的AIAI晶片它要到使用端是不是都要經過所謂的封裝先進封裝 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不用我們把它變成以貨運為主的一個機場"},{"start":234.91,"end":259.125,"text":"就是強化他貨運來 貨機怎麼有一個停機坪可以在節省國家這個過渡期間最少的資源之下我們來發展水上的國際貨運機場我想要請教副主委跟次長這樣的看法你們是否可以來支持並且來跟嘉義來協助來提案"},{"start":259.755,"end":267.252,"text":"因為當然如果說可以把我們的貨運做暢期流的話我覺得這個方向都是可以去考慮的好 那我想聽副主委"},{"start":268.208,"end":290.134,"text":"站在國安會的立場報告委員 其實我們這一次的六大產業還有生活圈的規劃裡面我們事實上都會考慮到當地的發展的產業裡面它所需要的一些基礎建設我們會全盤考量那如果是像委員所提的這個建議 我們會做評估"},{"start":290.974,"end":308.643,"text":"因為其實有不同的選擇那我會選一個其實最有效率的方式因為基本上一定是會支持在地產業的發展如果您說的如果貨運空運海運不足貨運這些晶片基本上都是空運我們會全盤考量"},{"start":312.265,"end":327.056,"text":"我要跟副主委再說一下,因為在高雄填海造陸完成前這20年的期間是整個晶片、整個AI非常重要的時刻所以我們不能先在等這個20年,那我們嘉義水上機場有一個優勢這個優勢勒,講起來我會心生,要不然我一定要講給你們聽,這叫落後的優勢"},{"start":334.622,"end":350.405,"text":"為什麼現在其他的機場 我們現在它的貨運難以發展就是因為有宵禁的問題 宅衣店過 飛機不能飛宵禁的問題很嚴重啊那我們嘉義 雖然一樣要面對宵禁 可是我們B港 我們那邊我們那邊都地比較多 我們那邊都做事的"},{"start":351.225,"end":375.33,"text":"所以我們那邊附近農地比較多所以你在於這個宵禁的問題要貨運讓它貨倉急流然後這個宵禁的問題要面對的時候我們的嘉義這個地方就有這樣的優勢可以當這20年內我們南部的一個在一個大型的國際機場完成前這20年的過渡期間跟它在最終期間就要補到這塊這樣好不好"},{"start":377.51,"end":387.414,"text":"謝謝委員提醒因為這還是有限制到交通部的相關權責那我想我們國發會會來因為國發會規劃嘛會來做協調再跟副主委跟市長再說一個很好的優勢我們要讓我們國際人說我們台灣很強的我們水上也可以有基礎你看水上怎麼會有機場咧我們就說對我們這個名字就叫做水上國際基礎貨運為主"},{"start":405.181,"end":418.557,"text":"國外的人聽到就說 喔 台灣強水上也可以有基礎太厲害了好不好我們再來跟交通部做協調跟協商我們很期待這一件事情我們這樣好好的來規劃"},{"start":419.838,"end":437.214,"text":"南方的這樣一個AI半導體的聚落我們除了說37線橋下的交通路運要好之外要怎麼樣台灣接軌國際南部的貨運國際機場非常的重要好不好好 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其餘均照列改列為414億2426萬3千元"},{"start":2103.191,"end":2111.897,"text":"二,業務總支出原列400億224萬9千元,共計減列1340萬元,其餘均造列改列為399億8884萬9千元,三,本期剩餘原列13億8801萬4千元,增列4740萬元,改列為14億3541萬4千元,三,結繳供庫金額15億元造列市轉投資計劃無劣數,"},{"start":2133.592,"end":2142.431,"text":"五 固定資產建設改良擴充三十二億四千一百零四萬三千元造列六 國庫增撥基金額無劣數七 通過決議三十五項"},{"start":2143.908,"end":2163.363,"text":"二 作業基金 作業基金 國軍老舊眷村改建基金一 業務計劃因依據業務收支轉投資 固定資產建設改良擴充及經營用等項之審查結果隨同調整二 業務收支 一 業務總收入六億三千九百七十二萬兩千元造列"},{"start":2164.043,"end":2181.48,"text":"新业务总支出原列4亿6749万4千元减列业务成本与费用业务费用向下业务费用中会费捐助补助分摊救助剂与交流活动废支捐助补助与奖助100万元其余均造列改列为4亿6649万4千元"},{"start":2184.711,"end":2196.597,"text":"3.本期剩餘原列一千一億七千兩百二十二萬八千元增列一百萬元改列為一億七千三百二十二萬八千元3.結繳公庫金額無劣數4.轉投資計劃無劣數5.固定資產建設改良擴充無劣數6.國庫增撥基金額無劣數7.通過決議十一項"},{"start":2206.963,"end":2225.403,"text":"三作業基金國防醫學院軍事教育基金一業務計劃因依據業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等向追審查結果隨同調整二業務收支一業務總收入七億八千兩百九十四萬四千元造列"},{"start":2226.063,"end":2242.058,"text":"二 业务总支出 原列8亿6318万9千元 减列业务成本与费用 教学成本向下 教学研究及训辅成本之服务费用250万元 含修理保养及保护费200万元 一般服务费50万元"},{"start":2242.678,"end":2270.067,"text":"其餘均造列改列為八億六千零六十八萬九千元三本期短處原列八千零二十四萬五千元減列兩百五十萬元其餘均造列改列為七千七百七十四萬五千元三結繳公庫金額無劣數四固定資產建設改良擴充一億五千七百七十七萬兩千元造列五國庫增撥基金額一億六千三百六十九萬兩千元造列六通過決議事項"},{"start":2272.463,"end":2295.013,"text":"是資本計劃基金國軍營設及設施改建基金一業務計劃因依據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整二基金來源用途及餘處一基金來源一百四十七億四千七百三十五萬五千元造列二基金用途原列三百九十三億一百二十六萬三千元簡列資安園區專案計劃五千萬元"},{"start":2297.216,"end":2301.699,"text":"老舊營舍整建計畫2億2300萬元工程及設施整建計畫4億500萬元共計減列6億7800萬元其餘均造列改列為386億2326萬3000元三本期短處原列245億5390萬8000元減列6億7800萬元改列為238億7590萬8000元"},{"start":2325.033,"end":2350.552,"text":"3.補辦預算固定資產建設改良擴充90億8千萬元造列4.通過決議八項5.114年度中央政府總預算案國防部主管國軍生產及服務作業基金國軍老舊眷村改建基金國防醫學院軍事教育基金及國軍營舍及設施改建基金附屬單位預算均審查完畢審查結果送財政委員會會總後"},{"start":2351.857,"end":2365.31,"text":"提報院會不需交由黨團協商院會討論時有王昭己委員定語出席說明六有關委員提案內容文字及金額在不影響提案原意下授權議事人員修正處理宣讀完畢請問在場委員對上次會議議事錄有無遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處"},{"start":2379.465,"end":2398.99,"text":"那議事錄確定 請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項二 邀請僑務委員會委員長報告因應世界政經局勢變化如何在總和外交政策中串聯僑界匯聚海外僑力 擴增友台力量壯大我國經貿實力 並被質詢 宣讀完畢現在介紹在場的委員 許巧欣委員羅美玲委員"},{"start":2410.083,"end":2433.111,"text":"王逸川委員介紹與會的官員委員長徐家青副委員長阮昭雄主秘張良明綜合規劃處處長郭淑珍僑民處處長賴麗穎"},{"start":2441.83,"end":2469.967,"text":"僑教處處長林紀榮僑商處處長游凱全僑生處處長王怡如祕書室主任邱惠燕人事室主任楊志傑主計室主任林秀燕"},{"start":2473.065,"end":2488.365,"text":"資訊事主任白忠光政風事主任楊尊仁法規會專門委員徐佑林僑務通訊社社長吳曉竹"},{"start":2493.271,"end":2505.322,"text":"本日會議邀請僑務委員會委員長報告如何在總和外交政策中串聯僑界匯聚海外僑力擴增友台力量以壯大我國經貿實力並被質詢請徐委員長上台報告"},{"start":2527.053,"end":2554.79,"text":"林昭偉各位委員大家早安今天本會很榮幸能夠再一次來到應邀來做專案報告那本報告呢資分前沿以及全球政經局勢下的台灣機遇與挑戰總和外交政策中僑務工作的價值與功能串聯僑界連結台灣共同發展的具體策略僅就上面幾項呢最後結語五個段落進行不令執教"},{"start":2557.179,"end":2580.041,"text":"台灣政府以總和外交的策略,全力實踐賴總統的價值外交理念,攜手友邦、理念相近的民主國家等各種有我的力量來共同發展。海外僑胞對台灣都有深厚的情感,更具強烈的使命感,在在都在協助台灣向前發展,台灣非常需要僑界的緊密合作。"},{"start":2582.677,"end":2586.626,"text":"接下來請就台灣的機遇挑戰分為四項跟委員報告"},{"start":2589.568,"end":2613.663,"text":"在政經局勢劇烈變動的今天台灣有以下幾項的機遇與挑戰本會分四個面向跟大家報告首先是反民主勢力擴散的疑慮當前中國等威權政體持續的對國際社會秩序構成威脅台灣也大幅增加與全球民主陣營合作的空間"},{"start":2614.764,"end":2643.355,"text":"但在海外面對中國的各種統戰威脅我方仍需要審慎的因應其次是文化力與國家自信的展現文化力是國家最根本的實力本會以Move to Next Generation作為工作的重點讓僑界的年輕人下一代能夠更深入的理解台灣的文化內涵成為爭取全世界支持台灣的重要青年文化大使第三"},{"start":2644.375,"end":2666.74,"text":"透過全球產業鏈快速的變動來展現當前台灣是全球不可或缺的驅動引擎我們抓住此契機協助海外的橋台商投入相關重大的包括半導體產業等等的合作來發展產業趨勢第四在全球競爭人才的"},{"start":2669.048,"end":2685.18,"text":"趋势之下,本会因应产业的需求,结合台湾的学制优势,运用台湾科技系导的前瞻技术,推动揽财的计划,以延展乔生的人才策略,展现政府在全球竞争人才当中的优势。"},{"start":2687.423,"end":2705.851,"text":"其次針對僑務工作的價值與功能分就幾點跟各位委員說明總和外交是我國政府以多元進步的價值為基礎來連結國際期盼能夠結合各方夥伴強化合作其中現在在全球"},{"start":2707.151,"end":2712.872,"text":"台灣有超過200多萬的台僑208萬以及超過6000個僑團1000多所僑校超過17萬的畢業僑生校友這樣豐沛的僑民社群能量構成了台灣與世界的重要聯繫橋樑近期外交部林佳龍部長擔任總統特使出訪帛琉"},{"start":2731.036,"end":2747.096,"text":"我們也看到世界台商總會、亞洲總會都已籌組投資考察團前往陪同與柏柳政府商談投資與經貿合作充分發揮海外橋台商充沛的能量與世界緊密合作"},{"start":2748.939,"end":2770.171,"text":"其次,跟正式的外交工作相比,僑民外交工作事實上有更大的彈性空間。透過僑民的社群聯繫合作,包括以文化、教育、經濟、科技等交流來推動雙邊實質的合作,可以協助政府在正式外交工作開展更多的合作機會。"},{"start":2771.352,"end":2791.88,"text":"進一步來說全球的僑民長期深耕在僑居地與當地的主流人士有緊密的連結全球的僑民在社群發聲能讓台灣的聲音讓世界更加聽到因此僑務工作在總和外交的政策上是有很大的效益能夠推動台灣參與國際社會爭取國際支持其次要針對"},{"start":2798.895,"end":2817.848,"text":"發展台灣共同的具體策略 我們以下幾點來串聯僑社第一 在串聯僑社連結共同發展的具體策略上我們有七個面向來跟委員報告首先是深化與海外僑團的交流互動"},{"start":2820.308,"end":2834.44,"text":"為強化海外的僑社與台灣的連結扎根僑界的工作本會致力於促進僑界與台灣緊密合作邀請了各地的僑社領袖來台參訪每一年包括有很多的傳統僑社都會定期組團來訪以及政府首長"},{"start":2839.431,"end":2857.824,"text":"到全球走訪橋區等多元模式來推動確保橋社的永續發展同時鼓勵下一代新年能夠參與更多的橋界活動為橋社注入動能持續的擴增有我的力量第二結合全球的人脈"},{"start":2859.308,"end":2871.555,"text":"為台灣發聲為了鼓勵僑團在僑居國的人脈運用爭取當地主流人士的支持過去幾年來台灣參與世界衛生組織及聯合國等國際組織活動單單以去年一年僑界就有46個地區111場的活動超過10萬人以上的參與加深了全球對台灣議題的關注"},{"start":2886.035,"end":2910.877,"text":"第二 第三 為全面推廣具有民主多元的台灣軟實力本會配合僑界的需求辦理各種循迴性的講座包含有台灣美食展 經貿專題講座同時也攜手國內的觀光旅遊業者共同拓展以美食 外交振興國內的觀光鑒於語言跟文化是"},{"start":2913.379,"end":2932.449,"text":"兩位一體的關鍵 僑委會正積極的推動華語文的深耕計畫華語文深耕計畫在過去幾年於歐美地區已經設立了84所台灣華語文學習中心推動具有台灣特色的華語文教育讓台灣的華語文的產業能夠在世界繼續"},{"start":2934.391,"end":2943.987,"text":"擴大發展吸引世界各地的國際人士來學習華語文並充分的了解台灣的文化向世界展現我們的多元魅力"},{"start":2945.199,"end":2971.513,"text":"第四,引领侨台商与台湾各界的强化合作侨台商具备有在地化、国际化与全球化的优势是台湾产业前进海外市场最佳伙伴而台湾在全球的科技供应链当中又扮演了关键角色拥有强大的科技研发的实力因此可以协助侨台商的短期升级并且拓展新的商机、市场及占比"},{"start":2972.233,"end":2998.56,"text":"本會將持續整合扮演橋樑的角色配合國家推動五大信賴產業來協助我們的橋台商繼續在全球發展同時也讓我們海外的商社商會能夠壯大透過橋台商的實力成為台灣經貿量能的延伸重要力量第五以培育及流動橋升方案來協助台灣提升競爭力"},{"start":3001.479,"end":3029,"text":"本會提供海外青年學生來台接受優質的教育讓僑生深入的認識台灣不同領域的進步與發展更增加對台灣的認同本會透過舉辦海外英語服務營在過去兩年分別都有25個23個國家來自世界各地的青年朋友不單單只有華裔的人口世界多元族裔的人口也都參與了我們的英語服務營的營隊"},{"start":3031.081,"end":3057.483,"text":"多面向的擴大海外新生代對台灣的認識同時也有華語營的活動吸引更多年輕的小朋友可以在台灣就讀就學以及深化華語的學習第六近年來我們聚焦以台灣日等相關活動來行銷台灣海外的僑界"},{"start":3059.025,"end":3075.419,"text":"在本會的協助之下持續的連續三年都以辦各類的台灣日活動來成功提升國際的能見度並且介紹了台灣的多元文化例如去年剛剛我們在德國的波鴻盧爾大學"},{"start":3076.26,"end":3092.822,"text":"台灣日的活動就以台灣華語文學習中心為核心包含我們僑團及志工成功的吸引了當地有600多位的德國友人參加或是在美國成人職棒的各個場域裡面幾個重要的"},{"start":3093.763,"end":3112.256,"text":"大都會城市都有臺灣日的活動舉辦讓各界透過城邦、職邦遊行活動來搭配臺灣團隊讓海外的僑界能夠積極參與主流活動更加拓展提升臺灣的能見度"},{"start":3113.917,"end":3134.018,"text":"亦或是如在澳洲南部也以多元文化節等大型活動加上美食巡迴民俗表演等等成功的拓展了台灣的傳統文化的領域第七在全球化的時代本會由於我們的沒宣預算是非常的緊"},{"start":3136.636,"end":3151.108,"text":"非常的緊縮因此我們也高度的運用多元平台希望透過社群平台讓全球的僑胞可以快速的掌握在國內重大的訊息以及國際重大的變化"},{"start":3152.169,"end":3177.982,"text":"本會官網總共有六大系統包括僑物電子報、YouTube、Facebook、Line、X、Instagram的社群再搭配文化部的台灣plus等平台我們快速且正確的將重大的政策台灣的現況向海外傳遞同時也在我們的僑物電子報設置了僑胞關心議題的專區打造及時健全的資訊交流傳遞網絡"},{"start":3180.41,"end":3207.642,"text":"最後在面對充滿挑戰與不確定的全球環境中所幸台灣在僑界鼎力支持之下我們在許多領域都還有非常傑出的表現也讓世界認識台灣僑界僑胞更認同台灣就如同去年國慶大會的僑胞代表自此當中所提民主自由及人權是我們永遠"},{"start":3208.956,"end":3234.213,"text":"不退讓的堅持說出了僑民們共同的心聲透過海內外共同共享價值匯聚全球的僑力促進更多的交流合作而達成壯大海內外發展的具體目標我們展望今年的僑務工作將更加的著重與拓展海外僑界力量希望能夠深耕僑區的人脈資源轉換成台灣有力量的前哨站"},{"start":3239.256,"end":3252.274,"text":"共同来为台湾发声配合我们总和外交的政策助力台湾向前迈进以上仅就以几点跟委员说明敬请委员不吝指教感谢大家"},{"start":3260.621,"end":3277.188,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會的委員5分鐘10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右是詢答的情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台諮詢謝謝主席有請徐委員長"},{"start":3290.199,"end":3291.34,"text":"請委員長羅委員早安委員長早安委員長我們球友會從106年就開始推動台灣青年海外搭橋計畫每一年我們都會選送國內大專院校優秀的在學青年在暑假的時候前往海外各地來做參訪跟見習"},{"start":3315.555,"end":3317.496,"text":"有看到每一年我們報名的青年學子都非常的踴躍我有看到全國會提供的資料單單在去年113年就有超過2800位的國內的青年學子來報名然後我們有領選了59位的優秀的學子"},{"start":3338.764,"end":3349.673,"text":"去年7月份的時候有到泰國、澳洲還有美國進行為期7天的參訪的見習計畫到現在從106年代現在我們有看到有665位的台灣青年獲選來參加我們都知道說這些孩子從國外回來之後其實都要寫一份見習之後的報告"},{"start":3365.266,"end":3367.067,"text":"就放在他們個人的這個社群平台這次我也看到全國會其實也會來做這個刊載那甚至還要製作影片等等可是我想請教就是說很難得孩子有這個機會到國外去做參訪"},{"start":3381.011,"end":3396.926,"text":"那除了說我們就是回來之後做了這個成果發表會之後到底有沒有在後續呢有相關的一些計畫因為本期所看到就是說每一屆我們這些孩子出去之後可能最後的ending就是在他們的這個發表會"},{"start":3398.988,"end":3404.429,"text":"之後然後我們車友會其實好像跟這些600多位的台灣青年好像沒有在後續的這個相關的一些交流跟活動我想這個能不能說明一下謝謝羅委員的關心讓我有機會能夠來充分的對這一個大橋計畫做說明事實上我們雖然是106年就開始舉辦但是疫情期間大概停了兩三年"},{"start":3426.335,"end":3447.434,"text":"那麼從去年開始確實受到非常多的關注那我們也覺得這些優秀的大學生他們有機會去海外見識包括國際的領域也了解我們橋界的生態那麼也為他們未來的生涯規劃注入一些新的元素讓他們可以提前做準備"},{"start":3448.175,"end":3464.741,"text":"那事實上這個每一年大概有60位左右的學生呢我們從去年開始他們回來除了有這些社群平台自行的發表video或者是發表一些攝影啦或者文字的這個展出以外事實上我們開始讓他們籌組一個就是青年搭橋計畫的這個長期的一個等於是一個聯盟的活動"},{"start":3474.264,"end":3491.398,"text":"那就跨界呢可以彼此都聯合在一起那同時我們也覺得說這些年輕人是非常有心也非常積極那我們事實上從去年開始又向下扎根辦了這一個高中的探索營那麼就由這些其中已經參與過我們搭橋計畫的學員來擔任輔導長"},{"start":3495.822,"end":3501.085,"text":"繼續帶領更年輕一輩的在這些營隊的活動當中做很好的引導角色那除此之外我們也讓他們一一分門別類比方說我們在去年有這個北美洲台灣的醫師協會他們反台辦理40年的這個活動的時候呢我們特別也召集了這些在海外的Medical doctor是年輕一輩的"},{"start":3522.877,"end":3542.18,"text":"來跟這些在台灣的搭橋計畫也是念醫學院的學生進行交流座談那因為台灣的這些優秀的Medical doctor事實上已經都是在各大學醫學院同時是臨床醫師也同時是教授那他們對於我們的學子幫助就很大"},{"start":3542.66,"end":3559.745,"text":"所以有十多位醫學院的學生參加了這個座談會以後覺得對於他未來的生涯發展提供了非常多重要的建議所以我們就搭配著我們既有的一些相對的文化活動或者是一些專題的活動或者橋台商的活動我們都會積極的幫這些台灣的搭橋計畫學員來做一些進一步的媒合讓他們有興趣的領域可以持續的發展"},{"start":3571.329,"end":3576.352,"text":"那當然今年呢我們由於去年的這個報名人數破歷史新高2800個"},{"start":3580.148,"end":3606.837,"text":"以上的這個申請案我們只挑了60個老實說是真的非常競爭那到今年呢我們就從善如流因為委員們都很關心說這麼多人這麼優秀那我們可不可以增加名額但在我們預算有限的狀況之下今年我們是有擴增一些所以我們名額會提到80幾位那就是希望說多增加幾個不同的路線能夠讓更多的優秀台灣的年輕人"},{"start":3607.877,"end":3618.927,"text":"出國去學習跟見識同時他們也在海外的時候跟我們在海外的這些第二代第三代的年輕人也建立很好的互動關係這是我們在搭橋計畫近兩年來具體的一些發展新的面向"},{"start":3624.151,"end":3638.137,"text":"是委員長剛才講到非常重要一點就是說其實這個計畫其實要有這個延續性那我們現在開始來做那為什麼本席會提出來是因為本席辦公室有一位同仁其實他就參加了第一屆的這個大橋計畫他說他從這個交完這個計畫成果發表會之後他說橋口會再也沒有跟他聯絡過所以為什麼我會在這裡提出來"},{"start":3647.401,"end":3654.043,"text":"因為我覺得真的是非常的可惜那當然我們很開心聽到委員長說其實這兩年我們已經積極的就是要建立一個交流的平台那我覺得這種學長學弟制的那種學弟妹制也很重要因為也是一種經驗的這個傳承我想因為我知道說這計畫最主要的目的是要讓這些青年學子培立成為未來橋界的這個人才"},{"start":3670.529,"end":3677.633,"text":"然後我有看到你們有提到說進一步蛻變成為宣傳台灣之橋屋外交兼併計畫這個很重要的一點那居然要有這一點要實現的話我想從106年之後的這些曾經參加過這個海外搭橋計畫的這七年學子其實我們都可以一把找回來因為我的同仁就說沒有耶他們從來沒有聯絡過我發表完之後其實我們也覺得非常的遺憾他說其實應該要有一個連續性的這個計畫好 謝謝委員長"},{"start":3700.307,"end":3723.755,"text":"那再來還有一點我還要提到的就是有關於這個海外的這個校友會的這個成立的部分因為我今天我也看到這個委員長你有提到在這個節育的時候你說展望114年僑務工作推動了需要鞏固跟擴展海外僑界的這個力量當然其中就包含的這個留台校友會那我們看到說其實呢從2021年開始台灣"},{"start":3726.476,"end":3740.66,"text":"台灣的這個出口貿易在對美國也好是對東協十國來講其實都都是有上升的那剛好這些東協十國呢或是美國其實很多僑外生也都到台灣來來留學那我們有看到在數據上我們可以看到就是說其實馬來西亞目前有59個這個留台校友會甚至馬來西亞還有這個"},{"start":3746.782,"end":3763.562,"text":"劉台總會他們這個組織算是非常的完整那是因為馬來西亞來台你也說喬瑞森其實有五六十年的歷史有歷史淵源可是我們看到泰國、印尼也有成立再來還有一點我特別看到就是越南越南目前只有"},{"start":3764.463,"end":3770.668,"text":"兩個這個留台校友會其實我們知道說近幾年來不管是校友會也好或者是教育部其實呢就成立了很多這個橋外生的這個專班我想畢業回去的這個越南的這個橋外生應該也不少所以我就想說這個校友會應該是要積極來輔導向越南他們來成立這個校友會因為校友會其實呢因為曾經在台灣念書生活過所以對台灣的向心力其實是非常強的那藉由這個校友會作為我們跟"},{"start":3794.666,"end":3813.681,"text":"這些東西國家也好或是澳洲、美國、加拿大這些國家都好我在想在這個連結方面或是對這個兩國之間的這個互動其實有很大的這個幫助所以這個部分可能除了馬來西亞之外其他的國家我們都需要積極來做輔導這個部分"},{"start":3816.603,"end":3828.675,"text":"會 我們會加強因為越南這十年來的學生確實有增加但是已經畢業回去的相對還沒有很多所以目前是兩個教委會組織但我們可見的未來可能再等個三年到五年左右我相信這個教委會就會像遍地開花一樣各地都會產生"},{"start":3839.386,"end":3857.409,"text":"OK 那我知道這幾年因為我們在國際情勢上真的是非常的困難然後橋友會我也知道委員長跟副委員長其實很積極的走訪各國去拜訪橋界那這個努力是本期是非常的肯定那當然在數據上可能還是有需要加強的地方好的 好 以上謝謝謝謝羅委員 謝謝謝謝羅美玲委員委員長請回接下來我們請王逸川委員上台質詢"},{"start":3878.41,"end":3880.692,"text":"委員長 謝謝請委員長黃委員早安好 委員長早你們辛苦不會這個剛提到台灣日因為我看你們的書面報告跟我認知的台灣日不太一樣是"},{"start":3898.405,"end":3926.768,"text":"裡面只寫什麼德國啦這個澳洲嘛是事實上台灣日很多在美國沒錯你剛剛報告的時候就把這個職棒加進去了對好這個去年的大都會的台灣日停辦你知道嗎我知道為什麼仍然是因為中國因素的干擾這麼嚴重是好那你知道最近蔡奇昌會長要去澳洲嗎知道"},{"start":3927.366,"end":3942.2,"text":"知道 也是為了台灣日嘛對他們的職棒隊對 澳洲職棒對 比賽好 這個台灣日對宣傳台灣是一個主權獨立的國家是很重要的"},{"start":3942.961,"end":3958.396,"text":"那我覺得僑委會要多用一點各式各樣的方式是有沒有信心在今年至少在一百個城市或者小鎮或者學校至少弄個一百個台灣字"},{"start":3959.848,"end":3968.15,"text":"跟委員報告我們台灣日確實是有很多元的特色那美國的職棒因為是美國民眾的主流娛樂之一那所以事實上在美國我們現在各大都會不管是東岸西岸南岸北東美西美南我來舉幾個這個跟委員說明東岸呢有這個從Boston紅襪隊的主場到這個紐約的大都會對這個委員長我知道"},{"start":3988.814,"end":3994.857,"text":"然後一路到這個華府到這個亞特蘭大這個東岸就整條四個大城市都有了南部Houston也有然後西岸呢我們從這個包括從西雅圖一路到這個南加州這個也好幾個不同的這個主場都有在參加台灣日連Arizona的場都有"},{"start":4010.365,"end":4023.963,"text":"好 那你應該有在看 或者是阮昭雄副委員長而且我們對於小朋友那個U12 U14 U16 U18我們僑胞都非常非常積極的去參加那這些事情跟僑委會有什麼關係"},{"start":4024.773,"end":4050.236,"text":"因為只要有僑胞關注參與的空間,我們僑委會就要積極的去關心那因為這些比較商業啦,不是說你要參加就參加,這個要開展的或者是中間有人在幫忙連結啦那其他的地方的這種台灣製啊,比如說各個大學國際上的各個大學,我們的學生會"},{"start":4052.078,"end":4072.479,"text":"應該僑委會或者外交部各式各樣或者我們台商會或者在地的同學會教育部的這種組織應該都要努力讓台灣在世界被看見這才會是總和外交對我們包括像加拿大在東岸西岸每一年也都會辦這個多元文化節"},{"start":4073.24,"end":4089.793,"text":"但是多元文化節雖然是以早期用台灣為主體但近幾年來我們有心的幾個僑領很成功的把當地所有的各族裔的僑民都整合在一起所以台灣變成是這些文化日的主要organizer"},{"start":4090.933,"end":4104.782,"text":"這個可能到時候包括文化部就是說這些大家一起整合進來第二個你們有這個喬教中心或什麼華語文中心請問這裡的老師都怎麼來的"},{"start":4106.259,"end":4134.424,"text":"我們在全球呢有一千多個橋校那這一千多個橋校從五十年前橋民陸續外移的時候就有很多人是自主性的籌組起來這種橋校那有一些原來是擔任自己真的是做華語文的這個專業老師去到海外那絕大多數的呢其實包括當地的留學生或學生家長那因為基於要傳承語言跟文化"},{"start":4134.944,"end":4150.645,"text":"自己也接受一些專業的培訓去擔任老師所以這幾年的師資更加多元這些老師有沒有中國人我們如果是在台灣華語文學習中心我們就明文規範不可以有中國護照"},{"start":4151.411,"end":4178.77,"text":"好 那他們會用中國的用語嗎譬如說 委員長早上好不會 我們都是用正體字的教學然後我們也開發我們自己的他們會不會講早上好基本上我們的橋校應該這樣說會有一些中國學生來學習這是必 不是學生學生那個不管老師不會 老師還是會說早安午安晚安好 很好 對"},{"start":4180.625,"end":4204.206,"text":"這個不要再讓這個僑界反應說啊在教的都中國人都用中國用語事實上沒有 搞到我們的學生搞不清楚然後就學習了然後學了之後啊回來台灣參加活動的時候那更奇怪我們講的都中國話這個可能大家因為用語上還是不太一樣的OK那這樣很好"},{"start":4205.447,"end":4226.799,"text":"喬烏委員最近有一些新聞你應該也有看過喬烏委員可不可以認同台灣是中國的一部分我們現在大多數喬烏委員都說中國文化是台灣文化的一部分很好那有沒有喬烏委員會對外說台灣是中國的一部分"},{"start":4227.822,"end":4244.609,"text":"這種委員基本上現在都沒有了都沒有喔都沒有了就不要有人反應喔沒有日之前的這個有媒體報導這也不是新聞因為他是因為過去他做生意喔才因為客戶那個個案我不談對 個案我們就不說我不清楚啦就是講"},{"start":4245.609,"end":4261.299,"text":"不要讓我們在海外的我們的僑務委員一定都是有非常深刻的支持中華民國台灣而且是認同台灣反共為前提的才會接受我們的邀請成為總統聘任的這個僑務委員我們現在的台僑啊應該現在應該到差不多第三台第四台好那這台僑啊"},{"start":4272.21,"end":4274.111,"text":"會參加僑團僑社的活動嗎早期確實人數非常少但是這兩三年我們積極的努力之下現在年輕輩的來參與的人數開始增加不少這個要努力喔要不然我們的僑團僑社會老化"},{"start":4290.282,"end":4310.948,"text":"真的真的我們有比較過台橋社團由於我們很有意識所以就積極的在培養下一代所以像我們今年開始的這個定的總額目標就叫做Move to Next Generation就是希望說將比較多的這個活動量能跟資源放在培育下一代第二第三第四代"},{"start":4311.468,"end":4329.339,"text":"那麼像傳統僑社他們就有很嚴重的這樣的挑戰傳統就是說如果你僑社還是站在僑社僑團站在純粹聯誼啦是固定時間吃飯啦那個年輕人就不會有興趣的沒有錯如果他來譬如說他來他有機會做創業對他來有機會交朋友"},{"start":4333.201,"end":4347.557,"text":"好,那譬如像在台灣的這種四大社團,他就會參加是阿不然齁,當時我們是海外的外黨齁,包括外交部的代表處啦,僑委會,批一本命啦對那吃飯的那一大時間齁,第四個吃啦,吃吃都放太清道總統的講話而已啊"},{"start":4352.742,"end":4376.308,"text":"委員你的觀察非常深刻所以我們這幾年也是積極的引導喬社說這種傳統聯誼活動的這個比例就下降然後多增加辦一些年輕人有興趣的比方說如何創業所以新創的議題介紹專題的 科技的 文化的那這些年輕人都相對有興趣對 這樣就對了那我們請這個喬委會這個委員長還有我們副委員長大家一起加油 謝謝謝謝 謝謝汪委員"},{"start":4382.51,"end":4383.351,"text":"謝謝王逸川委員委員長請回接下來我們請徐巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們請徐家欣委員長請委員長"},{"start":4406.914,"end":4423.786,"text":"許委員早安 早上好我不覺得這是什麼中國用語那首先我們先看一下最近的這個時事可以看到這個LA的大火是大家現在僑民最關心的我介紹到非常多的這個僑民在反映這件事情"},{"start":4424.466,"end":4453.909,"text":"这个我想图上可以看到LA的大火它从1月7号开始它燃烧面积799亩而且这个整个都还没有控制下来那我相信这个新闻上都有看到那去了解呢这一次的那个Air Cardia还有那个Monrovia还有Pasadena这些地方都有很多侨胞跟LA的居住居民那请问在侨胞协助的部分我们有没有掌握状况"},{"start":4454.338,"end":4459.139,"text":"有 我們對於台橋的這個台橋或者是華橋在跟我們有具體的這個聯繫狀況之下我們都有掌握哪些橋明已經有因為房子被燒毀或者是這個有一些財產的損失等等這個目前都有掌握中"},{"start":4474.463,"end":4501.267,"text":"那這個我們可以看一下外交部跟僑委會這邊外交部跟去LA的辦事處他們其實都有在包含Facebook官網上面公布這次LA大火的協助資訊可是我們僑委會目前是沒有的雖然外交部這篇我也不滿意因為好像是推給民間團體但至少有做可是我們希望說相關的我們的臉書因為第一時間大家不知道怎麼辦可能會上網看"},{"start":4501.827,"end":4513.48,"text":"那希望說在這方面我們有掌握就是說它可以我們提供什麼樣的服務在我們的臉書上官網上也能夠做一個比較精確的一個讓大家搜尋的這個區塊這是第一點"},{"start":4517.024,"end":4538.696,"text":"我們也收集了一些LA校友團體他們在協助避難收容的情況那這個就是他們現在在講的那很多都是鄉親現在他們自己在尋找這個撤離避難的據點所以就是說有沒有可能我們當地包括我們的僑委員等等的那一起就僑委會請他們來協助說有華僑或我國居民的協助聯絡處彙整相關的資訊好"},{"start":4545.579,"end":4548.943,"text":"跟委員報告由於這個洛杉磯大火分三大區塊還在目前燃燒中沒有完全撲滅那這兩天呢據說又有一個新一波的分崩又可能會再起那所以我們都密切的關注目前的撤離整體大LA地區撤離的民眾已經高達19萬"},{"start":4567.383,"end":4585.061,"text":"那當然除了在地有一些比較多的華裔人口也有很多當地的人那在這樣的狀況之下確實我們是還沒有放在臉書但是我們在群組裡面是有PO一些訊息我們有些僑團的幹部都有把私訊做匯整好"},{"start":4586.642,"end":4595.332,"text":"因為當地許多的僑團社團是有私下協助的可是他們有跟我們反映說希望可以待會轉達說希望僑委會能夠主動做整合的動作這點要麻煩我們的委員長"},{"start":4600.418,"end":4602.4,"text":"我們事實上目前幾個主要社團在彙整大火的震災情形有大洛杉磯台灣會館、世華工商婦女會還有洛杉磯台美商會、南加州台大校友會、中華會館"},{"start":4619.341,"end":4627.591,"text":"還有慈濟總會在美國佛光山洛杉磯分會以及我們海外台灣鄉親關懷聯合會這幾個都是屬於僑團組織性的在提供這些災民避難的時候的一些協助"},{"start":4637.822,"end":4656.932,"text":"那也好那也讓他們知道一下就是說超委會有在做這個整合就可以了是是是好那另外一個問題喔是最近喔這個先前有那個柬埔寨的KK園區那後來沉寂了一段時間因為大家都有在就是各等於說整個東南亞包括台灣都有在抓嘛"},{"start":4657.512,"end":4683.062,"text":"那现在有一个新兴的手法我自己身边有被害人那他们现在是去找这些小艺人比方说中央社报导27岁的火舞表演者谢先生在脸书上看到工作邀约在12月25号搭机到泰国之后失联那最后锁定的位置在缅甸而且他们要的是30万的赎金那30万的赎金"},{"start":4683.602,"end":4703.178,"text":"那紧急向高雄警方报案之后两地警方合作之下又回到台湾那虽然这边不是这个警政署我也会跟他们说明但是呢这个类型的状况因为我们之前在柬埔寨的期间2022年的时候侨委会是有"},{"start":4704.199,"end":4727.678,"text":"提供LINE的專線的LINE ID就是台灣Hochiming的這個訊息喬委員會會將相關訊息轉至胡志明辦事處予以因應所以就是說現在這個新型態的部分除了警方部分他們都有去報案了但是呢就是他現在的狀況是我特別跟委員長講他們是先到泰國所有演出"},{"start":4728.038,"end":4738.507,"text":"然後上了車之後被迷暈被迷暈之後醒來人在緬甸所以確切的定點在緬甸那他們有時候不知道自己在緬甸的哪裡所以說我想要問先前因為2022年我們僑委會有協助這個柬埔寨"},{"start":4743.912,"end":4748.234,"text":"那這次的這個從泰國到緬甸的事件我們僑委會這邊可不可以也提供類似的相對應的協助我們在泰國代表處跟在緬甸代表處都有派駐我們僑務組的同仁所以這個個案如果有這個聯繫一個管道我們一定會協助他們"},{"start":4764.121,"end":4793.003,"text":"之後我把訊息提供給您好嗎沒有問題而且還有他可能是系統性的是要拜託這個喬委員長就是我們那個系統性的問題要解決因為越來越多了真的而且他這次上次他們以前都是說去做詐騙這次真的不是去做詐騙了我已經很確定這次都是說去表演自動新興手法大家覺得是自己是小表演團體然後泰國有很多表演機會然後上車之後直接迷暈醒來在緬甸"},{"start":4793.783,"end":4820.855,"text":"是我覺得這蠻恐怖的這一定是有某種集團在運作對對對然後緬甸他就要交署金是因為變成變成是說泰國跟緬甸的邊境因為他們控管沒有那麼嚴格所以就很容易在這個地方對所以他比當時的柬埔寨還要麻煩一點那時候台商也有幫忙然後喬委會有幫忙然後那個警政署有幫忙是的那現在的話就是說從泰國到緬甸這一段呢他的難度增加了"},{"start":4821.275,"end":4842.815,"text":"那我希望就是說委員長這邊可以我們就是跨部會的去協調那相關個案我會再提供給你那請委員給我資料我會請我們小屋主同仁積極的去聯繫那最後一個問題就是關於那個就是有關這個巴西聖保羅的這個案子性騷擾密兔的事情那監察院這邊我直接講簡單一點監察院這邊他就說呢這個"},{"start":4849.122,"end":4851.184,"text":"那我想問一下喬偉輝對監察院的這個說明那這個您的回應是什麼"},{"start":4871.383,"end":4895.658,"text":"我們認為這個報告裡面只有引用片面的看法並沒有如實的把我們所提供的資料證據做充分的揭露那所以它的用詞包括都用疑似我們認為正式官方的報告不應該用疑似的這種用字的寫法如果你只是懷疑你沒有證據怎麼會可以定罪呢那你們會跟監察院提出什麼樣的"},{"start":4896.178,"end":4919.775,"text":"我們會正式的提出一份我們的報告那再來就是說這個有關於該位疑似的受害者那我們看一下那張圖表就是橋委會十年來烤雞餅等或被雞大鍋的人是少之又少那之前橋委會這個職員是橋委會十幾年來烤雞餅等再加兩大鍋的唯一一個人那這個是不是事實"},{"start":4921.016,"end":4935.821,"text":"這是個事實他因為記兩大過一大過是因為礦質另外一大過是因為洩漏與中資的人員來往好那我想要問一下這個在113年的烤雞兩大過的關係是否他可能會被列為丁等"},{"start":4936.601,"end":4952.55,"text":"這個是公務人員服務辦法的規範我們都沒有裁量的空間就是礦池只要超過五天就是一大鍋這個我們也沒有裁量空間所以相關的你們後續跟監察院這邊的我們都會提供資料"},{"start":4953.05,"end":4971.741,"text":"來函的部分呢 那就請提供給我們讓我們參考 知道你們的進度那也希望就是說呢 不管在哪一個部會齁不是針對僑委會 任何的一個部會我們對於職場霸凌也好對於MeToo性騷擾之間也好我們都拿出最嚴格的標準來盛事好 謝謝徐委員謝謝徐僑新委員鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":4983.846,"end":4989.874,"text":"黃仁委員黃仁委員黃仁委員不在接下來我們請陳冠廷委員上台諮詢主席我們請委員長有請委員長"},{"start":5007.683,"end":5028.904,"text":"陳委員早安委員長早好委員長今天我剛剛有看一下這兩天媒體有在報導有關於我們一個僑務委員那有相關的行徑那受到社會的一些公平那我想請教一下不知道你有沒有看到這一則新聞有"},{"start":5029.605,"end":5040.85,"text":"OK那你們的反應是什麼有沒有做澄清稿有說法是什麼事實上我們已經說明過這個都是在他擔任僑務委員僑務委員的遴選方式是怎麼樣"},{"start":5043.764,"end":5060.863,"text":"僑務委員基本上我們都是會在當地請我們僑務同仁收集各方的資訊有收集到他推薦之前在懸掛五星旗沒有從來沒有過那表示說我們收集的這個方式或者是說我們情報收集的方法有誤嗎不是有誤而是"},{"start":5063.446,"end":5091.951,"text":"委員我們不可能對每一個海外的僑民做地毯式的這個包括他所以說最基本的對於國主的認同算是地毯式的我相信盧委員對中華民國的這個向心力認同你相信是基於什麼樣的這個我在日前的諮詢已經回應過說他因為他的生意往來有中國的客戶所以他是因為基於跟客戶來的時候他所有的國旗都掛出來並不是只有掛五星旗"},{"start":5092.631,"end":5112.527,"text":"所以說他的效忠的部分有信心有辦法替他背書有有而且我們特別告訴他說如果你今天要被授聘為僑務委員的時候有一些國家的忠誠度基本規範這你必須要遵守如果你沒辦法做到那我們就無法建議名單到總統府去"},{"start":5113.107,"end":5140.863,"text":"所以說這一個名單我們通常僑務委員建議的名單到總統府最基本的忠誠考核是有的是有的那至少是委員長就不管是你接觸或者是同仁所收集的資訊可以知道說他懸掛的五星旗不是只有單一一面五星旗不是所以大家可以看到當時有包括中華民國國區而是有其他的外國客戶包含中國的客戶是所以他是在美國是"},{"start":5141.303,"end":5157.685,"text":"那因為有其他國家的客戶包含中國的客戶所以裡面的國旗懸掛了不只一面嘛是的沒錯那如果是這樣子的話那我認為這樣子的說法包含我們不管是各個新聞媒體我們第一時間我們要跟他講的是說有一些主觀的說法是沒有辦法去證實的"},{"start":5158.766,"end":5180.163,"text":"但是有一些客觀的至少是在國族認同的部分對國家認同的部分它是可以經得過討厭的 可不可以這麼說可以 可以這樣說謝謝 謝謝我覺得這是很重要的就是說我們沒有辦法因為不管是在從商還是任何的中小型的NGO團體它都一定會有競爭競爭的時候可能會有各種不同的說法"},{"start":5180.723,"end":5196.422,"text":"那如果沒有真正的調查報告出來之前我們沒有證據去指控或者是說這一個人他就是做些什麼事情要以證據為導向那至少我們能做的就是在聘用僑務委員或者是這些重要的不管是榮譽職還是非榮譽職的時候"},{"start":5198.024,"end":5224.941,"text":"對於國家的認同我們有最基本的考核那剛才委員長這樣的答覆我是可以接受的那以後我們更要注重這件事情就是說如果任何假設因為現在有各種不同的訊息那有類似這樣的質疑的時候逼時間就把他質詢出來照片也拿出來說就不是一個不是單一事件是在美國我們他們有各種不同的這個通商的對象那本來就是會有國與國之間的關係美國跟中國也是國與國之間的關係嘛那他們是僑胞他們是僑民當然是"},{"start":5227.242,"end":5246.4,"text":"不會說他們同時都是美國的公民所以這件事情我必須再強調一下就是說第一個中程考核這個部分或者說國家的這個認同的部分這個我們未來這個是我們能做的就是要做到我們有辦法做的就涉及司法的涉及調查的這個是"},{"start":5247.521,"end":5272.701,"text":"這個可能是他們商務事件的糾紛或者是各種可能性都有那這另外一部分由社會去公平讓他們自己要負起自己的責任國家能做的是這邊私人能做的是這邊那當然其實這樣子的爭議他們我相信媒體也是有所本但是還是一樣我們強調這個部分就屬於私人的部分公私我們把它分開來但是接下來的問題就是關於洛杉磯僑胞的處置"},{"start":5276.334,"end":5281.076,"text":"委員長知道最近洛杉磯的野火的狀況嗎是非常嚴重非常嚴重那這個野火的狀況有沒有掌握到我們的僑胞的狀況是怎麼樣有我們具體上來講目前的這個僑胞有人身安全通通沒有受到任何的這個具體傷害"},{"start":5296.861,"end":5298.563,"text":"但是財損確實有不少所以我們大概有掌握了大概八戶是有這個真的因為在火災當中這個房舍被燒毀那麼有一些財產的損失包括車輛等等的"},{"start":5312.134,"end":5316.418,"text":"但是目前為止因為大火都還在持續中所以我們都密切的在觀察因為風向會隨時改變那有可能燒的區域範圍又會擴大那我們也都積極的宣導讓住在比較靠近可能是會風向導向的這個大火波及區都希望他們預先撤離至少人身安全先顧起來"},{"start":5337.657,"end":5352.902,"text":"比較重要的個人的這些文件或者個人的比較私密財產的東西可以移走的就先移走這部分我們都有在宣導那委員長這個部分跟外交部的分工是怎麼分工基本上我們在洛杉磯有這個辦事處辦事處是統一指揮"},{"start":5357.043,"end":5359.346,"text":"那我們的僑務組呢因為我們有設立這個僑教中心那僑教中心他都積極的跟所有我們在大洛杉磯地區的各個僑社就保持密切的聯繫知道他們可以提供什麼樣的援助或者是他們的這個會員或者親友之間有什麼樣受害的情況"},{"start":5377.425,"end":5403.575,"text":"資源上面人力上面沒有重複反而是有分工的效果所以說甚至是我們不見得是僑胞可能是我們的留學生然後還有一些短期觀光的旅客那萬一需要協助那剛好這個我們僑界有資源甚至是有空間可以釋出的話那他們也可以去那邊避難大概是這樣子的概念因為我們在大洛杉磯已經成立兩個集難救助協會那這個兩個集難"},{"start":5407.196,"end":5410.118,"text":"我們成立極難救助協會就是希望幫助旅外國人他可能是短期去經商或探親或就學交流等等那他臨時遇到狀況的時候他就是向我們這個極難救助協會來行仇協助"},{"start":5422.307,"end":5448.939,"text":"那他們不用直接跟吉蘭教育協會就直接跟我們的這個出外的辦事處理師直接聯繫然後他們就會把他轉介到那邊去對沒錯那現在我們有學生有相關的受困的狀況嗎目前學生沒有但是我知道那個大火有燒到UCLA的這個部分的區塊所以UCLA也有做部分的撤離最後一個問題因為這個想要請教其實我去年就有在談的"},{"start":5450.16,"end":5468.679,"text":"大橋的計畫2025年海外的大橋計畫也是我們橋委會的旗艦計畫旗艦計畫我想他做得非常好我們辦公室也有同仁過去也是在大橋計畫今年有沒有已經到中南部宣傳"},{"start":5470.117,"end":5471.439,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我們很重視這個區域的平衡性所以中南部的大學也很多所以我們"},{"start":5486.359,"end":5498.477,"text":"計畫在今年度我們除了北部的說明會我們也會到中部南部各有一場就是希望說讓不同區域的學校大學的學生都知道這些資訊可以來跟我們報名爭取所以"},{"start":5501.874,"end":5520.268,"text":"各一場 中部跟南部各一場那雲嘉地區算中部還是南部 中南部我們會聯絡學校 多講一些啦 文長這個光是我們的雲嘉的院校就蠻多從科技大學到國立的大學 私立的大學 其實"},{"start":5523.69,"end":5545.383,"text":"我們雲嘉南高這四個縣市跟屏東這樣全部會串在一起最好是都各一因為真的是很多同學不知道讓他們知道有這個機會這次有幾個名額這次我們有84個名額因為委員大家都很關心所以我們在很有限的預算裡面在努力把它擠出來多了24個"},{"start":5547.544,"end":5558.429,"text":"讓應該是說資源還是分配就是我們也希望能夠均衡台灣就是讓比較弱勢的朋友同學們有機會出去好的因為競爭真的很激烈謝謝委員關心謝謝陳冠廷委員"},{"start":5578.188,"end":5581.592,"text":"我們請請委員 我要請委員長嗎謝謝主席 有請委員長我們請委員長"},{"start":5592.83,"end":5597.712,"text":"林昭薇早安早安委員長好有關監察院去年在12月5號對喬爾會有一個糾正案是針對在駐聖保羅辦事處的一個女員工遭到張姓主任的性騷擾的案件"},{"start":5610.277,"end":5619.383,"text":"處理的流程對陳情人這些接年有一些不利的處分所做的糾正案那問題是本席想對委員長說你們僑委會針對這個性騷擾案的處理還有整個調查的過程還是有一點疑問所以我想要一併等一下一起請教委員長就是因為受害人似乎是前年的時候六月的時候才向你揭發這個案件後來據說是委員長你親自處理的"},{"start":5636.815,"end":5639.558,"text":"然後那一年的時候那時候6月14號的時候這個歐姓的女員工向你揭發這件事情的時候請問你有做了些什麼事情還有當時駐聖保羅辦事處的僑委會然後在委員長你知道這件事情的時候究竟在你知道這件事情之前他們到底是不是已經知道有這個性騷擾案了呢"},{"start":5660.879,"end":5663.041,"text":"然後為什麼委員長你知道之後然後沒有做出性平法來做一個啟動的那個調查的程序然後也沒有採取任何的糾正還有補救的措施然後只有說口頭上說啊雙方啊只要"},{"start":5676.15,"end":5678.993,"text":"一個特定的距離還要調整業務互動方式就好了然後請問一下這個是符合性平法的處理的程序嗎這樣可以有辦法那個保護得了這個當事人嗎還有在媒體上有曾經說過這個案件不應該在僑界裡面有一些各自伸張互相放話的這些話"},{"start":5696.77,"end":5699.872,"text":"是因為怕僑界這樣是怕我們的僑委會這樣會加醜外揚嗎還是不敢伸張還是不敢依照性平法來處理呢還有因為我看了這整個的過程中然後從7月份在112年的7月份開始這個性騷擬員工的這個張姓的主任"},{"start":5717.12,"end":5726.866,"text":"就一直在放話然後導致歐姓這個女員工在7月到9月就是一旦的在追問還有一旦的在求助但是都是求助無門所以當時的僑委會竟然不理不睬所以我現在就是有很多問題想要請教委員長還有這一個女員工也在10月因為沒有辦法求助就是在10月12號的時候她提出了申訴然後結果她在當年她的年終考積就平等了"},{"start":5746.738,"end":5755.662,"text":"所以我們覺得很奇怪就是說他提出申訴的時間和僑委會對他的處分的時間是非常的接近然後是不是因為他提出了這個申訴所以連中考機才變平等呢而且聽說我看一下這整個情況是還有僑委會何時會發現他跟中資機關的駐外人員有一個聯繫往來的情況然後這個是不是讓大家又覺得說是不是因為他提出了申訴才開始"},{"start":5775.09,"end":5778.311,"text":"調查還有記過然後兩者這個有沒有關聯性還是你們認為覺得說這樣可以掩蓋事實然後故意把這一個被害員工安插罪名然後讓這一個職權就是利用你們職權來給他們報復還是給予這兩個這個員工第二個二次的罷免沒關係等一下你一邊說明我先把我的問題一次問清楚這樣然後還有這個性騷擾的加害者"},{"start":5801.616,"end":5812.98,"text":"只有簡單的寄了一個身戒一支還有年終烤雞一等但是提出生疏的受害者是烤雞是平等的而且是伎倆大過我覺得這樣是公平嗎而且上週五這個被害的女性員工服了大量的安眠藥緊急送醫"},{"start":5820.282,"end":5834.531,"text":"那僑委會對這個是不是有特別的去關心自己的員工呢還有說像這樣的事件整個經過監察院的提出了糾正那這樣的話委員長你認為這樣是覺得是當地的住處的處長是否有沒有失職的問題還是你認為說你自己有沒有失職的問題這我想請委員長可以剛才全部的疑問一併的說明"},{"start":5847.779,"end":5868.838,"text":"謝謝林委員召委的提問事實上我自己本身就是從事性別平等工作的一個運動者那我們這個中華民國很多的法律通過跟當時的立法我都是其中參與者我不會坐視任何有員工被欺負或者是遭受到騷擾不平等的對待"},{"start":5870.84,"end":5878.005,"text":"事實上在前年2023年的6月我第一次出訪到巴西前後總共是6月13到14號不到24小時的時間在我要離開的時候歐元跟我要了私LINE我就馬上給了他之後我離開到下一個國家打開手機之後有看到他傳來了一個訊息說他要提出申訴"},{"start":5896.778,"end":5911.224,"text":"因此我就跟他說那為了保障你的權利你要趕快把你所有針對你有利的資訊你要彙整起來包括你的一些相關工作紀錄排班出席表等等的東西因此我給了他好幾天時間"},{"start":5912.645,"end":5942.445,"text":"五天後呢他一直都沒有給我任何的新資訊因此我在原來又要飛下一個國度的時候臨時因為飛機班機有問題取消在當天我就想起來說這個五天了都還沒有接到資訊因此反而是我主動打電話給他說那這五天來你的資料準備好了沒有我想要趕快來了解看看怎麼幫你處理所以6月19號是我主動打電話給他他在接到我電話的時候事實上是在外面走路"},{"start":5942.845,"end":5960.998,"text":"而且他在我離開的隔天馬上就請休假了理由是去智利度假那事後我打電話給他說你現在背景音很吵是不是在智利他又說他不是所以事實上他請了去休假在智利卻是沒有去後來我知道說他還是留在巴西"},{"start":5962.099,"end":5965.801,"text":"無論如何他講完以後我馬上就他的具體資料開始進行了解那同時也做出了一個判斷跟處分就是說我認為張姓的這個主管確實他要有比較大的責任所以我就跟他說我要把你調回來你接不接受我的處分那張姓主任說"},{"start":5983.292,"end":6004.072,"text":"他同意被調回來所以在6月19號當天我已經分別告知兩個當事人的處分結果同時也要求他們在未來工作的職權上就不再有從屬關係因此在那個6月19號之後6月20號他們分別報回來的工作日子都是兩個禮拜兩個禮拜分別報回來"},{"start":6006.534,"end":6024.684,"text":"過往他都是要交給主任看過 主任才一起報回來我就是希望說在這個職權關係可以清楚釐清以後他不要再受到任何的干擾那所以當下我們的歐元是對我的處分他覺得非常的公正而且他非常滿意那我不曉得為什麼到後面我們進行這樣子的一個調處之後他們又"},{"start":6029.207,"end":6045.638,"text":"私下造成什麼樣的衝突那事實上七月八月都還好真正有一些狀況大概是在八月下旬那因為八月下旬在辦理一些活動的時候僑胞也有人來檢舉說這個我們美食展的場合居然出現了五個中國中資的高級幹部出現那這件事情也造成他們的一些摩擦後面的演變"},{"start":6054.884,"end":6079.679,"text":"過程當中呢我從出訪到回來我7月初回到台北以後我就將跟他開會的所有這個資料證據我讓他自己錄音讓他自己做會議記錄然後把資料送回來那我們交給人事單位要求他人事單位要列案那之後我也要求我們人事單位呢必須要定期的給他包括心理的協助包括如果他要正式的提出我們的性騷擾"},{"start":6081.52,"end":6087.366,"text":"到調查案我們也會受理所以每個月7月8月9月我們都持續的做這些事情他當時都說沒有問題他都說沒有要提出一直到9月底10月初他突然間向民代檢舉然後就說他怎樣怎樣"},{"start":6101.32,"end":6120.752,"text":"那可是各個很多的說法都是不符合公務人員的這個服務辦法的道理那其次就是說我們對於他考機的部分都是按照公務人員的服務辦法規定是因為我們不是我打的成績我反而沒有資格打成績本會的成績是由五個業務主管五個處還有加上這個代表處"},{"start":6125.274,"end":6151.921,"text":"或者辦事處的首長來共同幫他打成績所以是六個人的這個成績是總平均的事實上我們一年總共打三次有四個月一次兩次然後最後一次那他在具體要打到平等之前我們一定都要求各個首長一定要拿出他具體不利的事蹟到底是什麼所以事實上每一個首長都有把他具體不利的這個行為舉例出來比方說我們採購這個"},{"start":6162.118,"end":6162.742,"text":"所以在這邊要跟委員做說明"},{"start":6167.586,"end":6194.639,"text":"那後來僑胞因為他的案子曝光以後很多僑胞就自己開始來據名投書檢舉包括我們僑教中心的志工來據名檢舉說被歐元恐嚇說不能講不利於他的訊息還有一些僑務榮譽職也跟我們據名檢舉包括他有跟中資人員往來的一些照片資料提供給我們那我們在被具體檢舉的狀況之下我們不可能不調查"},{"start":6195.439,"end":6200.565,"text":"甚至有一些這個不當的請休假它事實上是有19天最後我們都從寬認定到最後只有認定5.5天的礦石案不然的話這個事情就更嚴重而已那我跟妳講 它現在服用大量的安眠藥緊急就它不是現在服用 沒有 它沒有當天我"},{"start":6214.02,"end":6225.542,"text":"一大早看到他馬上送急診的時候實際上我的了解是他當天晚上三點睡覺他可能把最後剩下兩顆安眠藥吃了媽媽不知道馬上把他送跟這件事情會有關係嗎而且第一時間我都派我們處長去醫院看他因為就在隔壁台大醫院我們也跟醫師詢問醫生說給他睡飽就好所以沒有做任何醫療處置所以你認為說跟這件事情是沒有關係他有精神上面的憂鬱症問題這個我們一直長期都有關心跟了解"},{"start":6242.686,"end":6251.581,"text":"這件事情我還是希望僑委會可以本於人道關懷合情合理還有和以下處理才是要處理這件事情的正道謝謝委員關心我們一定會照顧員工謝謝"},{"start":6267.08,"end":6274.747,"text":"蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在洪孟凱 洪孟凱 洪孟凱委員不在我們接下來請楊瓊瑜委員上台質詢主席 楊瓊瑜發言 邀請委員長有請委員長楊委員早安"},{"start":6290.134,"end":6307.003,"text":"委員長好,我們為了鼓勵我們的僑胞回國參加雙十國慶的活動,所以這個攜手旅行業推出了超過百條以上的旅遊路線,以提供我們的僑胞依照個人的喜好來做選擇報名。"},{"start":6309.384,"end":6333.784,"text":"那符合條件的僑胞每一個人最高他可以申請3000元的旅遊補助非常好那另外配合行政院我們0403的花蓮地震這個災後振興觀光方案那因此特別祭出加碼也就是僑胞你如果去參加花蓮縣或台東縣的旅遊的行程那你每一個人最高可以申請到3600塊的旅遊補助"},{"start":6336.406,"end":6362.039,"text":"這非常好大家一起協助但是我們看到你的統計到花蓮旅遊的僑胞僅只有百人那換句話說是佔我們僑胞回國的大概是2%那顯然在你的加碼當中並沒有發生這個成效出來所以要請教這一個方案如此的數字您的看法呢"},{"start":6363.923,"end":6378.27,"text":"我們對於去花東旅遊的這個僑胞遊客不是很多當然覺得有點可惜不過因為當時還有非常多交通阻礙或者是有還有餘震的一些客觀因素的影響那我們這一次113年總共有參加這個旅遊方案的人數是1485個那花東的部分是86人"},{"start":6388.874,"end":6415.274,"text":"那個數字偏低對數字偏低所以剛剛委員長你說的那個理由什麼交通中斷什麼這不是理由啊因為你人家還是過啊像我們各縣市喔大家不分喔委員這個是有一些心理的因素來來來我告訴你我們因為當主管的我們要去討論你的結果論你的數字是達不到你的理想嘛八十幾個一定不是你的理想嘛對不對是不是"},{"start":6415.894,"end":6436.883,"text":"我當然希望越多越好所以我們既然答案不是你的如意答案那我們應該要去檢討而不是只有去搪塞一些理由因為各縣市大家都一批一批去協助所以這個你來檢討因為我個人認為很好的政策啊大家來加油啊這個非常好讓國人的凝聚力可以更強"},{"start":6437.563,"end":6466.813,"text":"我們有問過僑胞說為什麼不選擇花東的路線你們去討論這個方案那本席再請教那也就是這個我們春節要到了很多的僑胞還是會回來我們知道回來回家過年是最棒最幸福的那你們是不是也有加碼有旅遊補助來促進我們國內的這個逛逛呢有沒有你有沒有想到這一點我們台灣人最重要的就是過年啊回家過年是最溫馨的啊"},{"start":6467.513,"end":6477.057,"text":"怎麼樣都要回家過年跟楊委員報告因為我們僑委會的經費跟預算很少很拮据那我們一年我們補助的原因是因為我們配合國家慶典所以把有限的預算就挪一部分出來鼓勵促進觀光因為在春節也是我們的目的"},{"start":6491.303,"end":6514.638,"text":"就是希望僑胞回到我們家裡頭來的時候春節我們不用促進僑胞都會自己回來讓他們會很感動你聽清楚本席的提問我們是說帶動整個觀光因為政府有引導就像我們現在國道客運那現在因為低迷一點所以交通部他們也提出我不漲價我還打六折請你們我們一起來交通減碳"},{"start":6516.419,"end":6530.447,"text":"這個想盡一切辦法這很好你就要想盡一切辦法怎麼樣讓我們的僑胞回來都能夠好的我們來多提供多提供你把方案給本席多提供一些訊息給僑胞對來都那個方案給本席"},{"start":6531.327,"end":6551.072,"text":"現在本席跟你討論,本席一直強調華語因為本席認為說語言會通,這是凝聚率最強的所以我們在海外的部分,華語文的這個市場拓展的一個機制本席要看到2020年你總共補助了84所台灣華語文學習中心"},{"start":6553.212,"end":6568.144,"text":"在歐美地區的營運包括了美國66所、英國3所、德國、法國、義大利都是2所奧地利、愛爾蘭、瑞典、匈牙利、捷克、比利時、荷蘭、波蘭以及西班牙各1所"},{"start":6568.985,"end":6586.173,"text":"那為什麼我要一個國家一個國家這樣念我就要讓全世界的人都知道我們在努力我們在你的國家裡頭我們也跟你契合在一起那所以要請問委員長未來你的拓展的計畫因為我們要跟世界接軌五大洲東南亞"},{"start":6587.472,"end":6599.98,"text":"澳洲或者是紐西蘭的這些國家我們密切關心密切那你來設置華語文學習中心一定會有效你有沒有這個規劃有跟委員報告我們第一期因為當時預算編列比較少所以只有鎖定在歐美國家"},{"start":6607.185,"end":6610.486,"text":"那我們現在已經要準備寫第二期計畫確實第二期計畫有保亞太區還有非歐美區的這些國家只要有可能性的我們都把它包含在內所以未來一定會包含澳洲、東南亞、紐西蘭、加拿大等等的國家都有可能會拓展在114年度裡頭來設置來拓展在115年開始115年開始,114年不見嘛"},{"start":6634.491,"end":6648.999,"text":"114年是在這個第一階段的計畫最後一年然後115年開始就會第二階段的第一年那後面會有五年 應該可以加強腳步啦是的 你在114年就趕快開始布建你115年開始 今年我們是做 今年會做準備計畫公告對啦 你要這麼做嘛 怎麼可能115年空掉一年做什麼呢是的 是的 沒有 今年是公告計畫我們是務必嘛 你預計什麼時候公告"},{"start":6660.906,"end":6687.704,"text":"我們現在因為送那個行政院國發會審核通過以後呢應該是在今年七月年中嘛七月之後我們就會公告年中之後去公告東南亞地區亞太地區非歐美區的我們都會公告非歐美區的澳洲啊紐西蘭都會有我們也希望以我們的華語文讓世界來接軌讓我們國家更"},{"start":6689.106,"end":6690.49,"text":"好的 謝謝楊委員謝謝楊瓊瑜委員那我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":7089.704,"end":7093.186,"text":"那繼續開會 那我們請王定義與趙偉上台質詢謝謝主席 麻煩委員長我們請委員長王趙偉早安 早最近其實事情蠻多 不過我要追蹤一件舊的案件你看一下曾經我們在"},{"start":7120.234,"end":7145.063,"text":"調查一件類似霸凌或者是性騷案的時候有傳出我們僑委會的人員協助中國人違法去入境我們的友邦這個來源你應該知道了因為我們的議事錄裡面有是這個案子到目前為止你可以說明一下調查的進度嗎"},{"start":7146.826,"end":7163.211,"text":"在2023年我們在巴西的某歐姓員工確實在當地有跟中資的高階人員結交好友"},{"start":7164.091,"end":7188.159,"text":"那你的結家好友的定義是什麼他除了這個相約師範去KTVPOP之外甚至他在演部開刀完還去住在他的家兩天在巴西待就聖保羅而已啊是所以聖保羅住處我們僑委會的人員是跟中國駐外人員過從甚密是"},{"start":7189.139,"end":7207.957,"text":"然後後來呢?然後這中間曾經他有計劃要去我們的邦交國旅行說中國那個官員?我們的部員跟中國的駐外人員一起相約說要出國去旅行"},{"start":7209.258,"end":7224.77,"text":"那要去邦交國因為只要持有中華民國護照就不用簽證那當時確實我們的在邦交國的僑胞有接到這一位員工的聯絡"},{"start":7226.451,"end":7233.913,"text":"那請他說可不可以開車到巴西這個邊境來接他們因為他要帶兩個朋友一起過去那僑胞就問他說兩個朋友是誰他說不是台灣人也不是台僑那他就問他說那是哪一國的他說是中國的可不可以請這個因為中國要到巴拉圭是需要辦理簽證的"},{"start":7255.419,"end":7274.584,"text":"那他說如果他因為可以帶著他們一起過去的話他就不需要再去辦正式簽證所以簽這中華民國護照就不用簽證了嗎當然不行所以他等於是在要求我們僑胞要去做違法的事情這有點像偷渡了"},{"start":7274.884,"end":7283.167,"text":"就是你沒有旅行文件然後過海關閃一下我們中華民國免簽的護照因為一般來說他之所以要求我們僑胞開過去是因為剛好我們邦交國附近的這個東方市呢很多僑胞在當地做生意那他們是在兩岸他們在兩邊"},{"start":7295.211,"end":7298.793,"text":"他們都有通行證所以他們通行證的車輛進出的時候就不需要檢查這個護照旅行文件所以他才會去拜託在巴拉圭的僑胞說開車過來接他們過去他只要坐上他的車可能在邊境他就不會被檢查對就過去了最後呢"},{"start":7318.823,"end":7346.098,"text":"最後這個旅行的案子後來沒有執行沒有執行那沒有執行這件事情本來也不會曝光可是因為歐案的這個所謂性騷擾案在媒體大量曝光以後就有這個當地的僑胞因此給我們這個資訊相關人就揭露了這件事情對我們才知道有這個事情那對這件事情僑委會怎麼處理"},{"start":7347.403,"end":7364.003,"text":"那因為除了這件事情以外還有就是在巴西當地的僑胞陸續都有在我們的民意信箱拒名兼舉就是同仁有跟中資的人員過程甚密交友"},{"start":7364.823,"end":7384.361,"text":"的情況 因此我們在性操勞案正式立案調查結果出來以後隔年因為檢舉的資料一直持續不斷進來因此我們最後也同樣立案調查我想謝謝委員長 其實這些事情都調查完畢了嘛是的當事人也有沒有承認"},{"start":7385.223,"end":7409.746,"text":"我們都有給當事人這個陳述的機會就這整個案子在2023、2024其實是原來有一些檢舉函在檢舉別人後來沒想到寫檢舉函的當事人反而被揭露了這件事情這是兩個獨立的案件一個是MeToo案件後來那個MeToo案件也經過調查完整你們是確認沒有進行懲處相關懲處那是另外一件事情"},{"start":7409.966,"end":7424.403,"text":"是的但這個案件其實比那個案件我認為更嚴重嚴重性比較大對因為有的是財道法律有的我們要考量說我們館內的機密是在他過從聖祕當中而且在這當中包括我們辦的美食展從來沒有過中國的"},{"start":7427.046,"end":7452.777,"text":"中資高階的人參加或者知道我們的活動居然在當年度的八月由這個歐元所負責的這個案子居然出現了五個中國高階的人員出現因此在橋界也引起划然所以這個案子我們也是立案調查我今天為什麼要特別問這件事情這不能只有划然而已這一位歐元歐姓的我們橋委會的駐外人員他跟中共"},{"start":7454.117,"end":7464.404,"text":"當地的官員互動這麼緊密甚至於出現我們國家跟僑胞辦的活動中國找到管道滲透進來而且剛好就他辦的"},{"start":7465.826,"end":7486.711,"text":"這裡面有沒有洩漏國防機密以外的罪這是一個法律問題第二個利用他擔任我們僑委會官員的身份他會遭到我們僑胞嘛他等於是拉著我們僑胞去幫中共的官員進到我們邦交國巴拉圭雖然因為僑胞警覺性高沒有去執行算未遂犯"},{"start":7487.731,"end":7503.044,"text":"但是這個行為在觀念上毫無國家安全外交人員該有的基本的界限沒有第二個其實是目無法際他在幫助中國的官員偷渡過去萬一偷渡成功然後這個僑胞沒空不載他回來"},{"start":7504.165,"end":7532.17,"text":"那兩個官員是怎樣 準備滯留在巴拉圭被逮捕會引起國際事件 那個事件如果發生巴拉圭逮捕了中國外交人員 非法入境然後一作證說 沒有 是中華民國台灣幫我進來的這兩位是中資人員 你是中資的幹部就中國那邊的 那一旦非法入境被巴拉圭逮捕的話 他作證講實話是確實會引起國際事件 沒錯是中華民國的外交人員幫我偷渡進來的"},{"start":7533.972,"end":7546.536,"text":"這是很嚴峻這個其實對我們國家聲譽跟各方面影響你們有沒有移送相關單位以法律的成本我們做了行政調查之後我們正式立案做行政調查之後這是為什麼觸犯了國家安全的這條界線我們記憶大過的原因"},{"start":7551.477,"end":7557.219,"text":"那有沒有移請司法相關的資料目前還沒有移送因為相關的資料我們也有請示外交部以及陸委會針對說與中資的人員往來的這個相關的定義那後續因為我們還在打委員長"},{"start":7570.455,"end":7597.962,"text":"第一個是因為他還在提在審當中所以我們未來一定會做行政但是他已經在聯繫我們台灣在巴拉圭的橋嶺過界到巴西在這兩個沒有旅行證件的中國人偷渡的方式要進入巴拉圭但沒有成功這是一個法律案件他辦的活動跟中方的人員不管叫中資人員或中方的駐地人員"},{"start":7598.742,"end":7627.582,"text":"互動緊密之後他們出現在我們國家的活動裡面這一塊有沒有洩密的部分我建議就是僑委會99.99的人大家入力從功 謹守分際你不能因為有一個這樣的行為就大家被質疑所以我認為標準的做法就是疫情事發檢調你們去查沒有事還他清白他就是行政違規有事該法辦就法辦否則駐外人員天高皇帝遠他剛才那種事情都敢做"},{"start":7628.562,"end":7654.244,"text":"根據墨菲定律我都懷疑不是第一次要不然他怎麼想出這個方法搞不好有成功過我們不知道這個要讓調查單位調查好不好我是建議這樣處理那這一個案子我為什麼等一段時間才來追蹤就是等你們所有行政程序走完了我們也不要冤枉人我名字我也不揭露出來請你們依法辦理這樣好不好好的謝謝委員關心好謝謝謝謝王定宇召委委員長請回"},{"start":7660.146,"end":7664.988,"text":"鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在接下來我們請林楚瑩委員上台質詢謝謝主席 邀請我們 呃 徐嘉勛徐 呵呵 徐曉武委員長 秦委員長"},{"start":7684.229,"end":7708.475,"text":"林委員你好好 這個稱呼委員長總是這個不太講得出口因為平常我們其實這個名稱比較少對 而且我認識很久了我想前面應該有委員都有特別問到就是有關於洛杉磯加州大火的這個部分因為其實這個應該是美國在因為其實美國啦其他地區常常這種野火狂燒的狀況"},{"start":7710.695,"end":7726.699,"text":"不生沒舉大概就跟我們台灣發生颱風的時候有但是這一次會特別引發注目是因為它是在南加州耶其實我們大概僑民最多的地區尤其是我看了一下這個Google Map的話我們洛杉磯的華僑教文服務中心距離大火只有9英里喔"},{"start":7727.179,"end":7743.373,"text":"那麼目前整體的僑委會的對外營運的狀況有沒有受到影響那我知道前面有委員問到了有沒有提供一些什麼協助所以整體來說這一場野火狂燒那麼對我們在海外尤其是在加州的服務上面會有影響嗎"},{"start":7744.955,"end":7750.721,"text":"我們在南加州的部分洛杉磯的大火確實是在比較多華人區的地方但目前為止我們有具體掌握有災損的僑民沒有人身的傷亡"},{"start":7761.974,"end":7776.246,"text":"有大概八戶是確實汽車房舍等的燒毀還有個人私人旅行文件等等都是複製一具那我們都有在密切的關注就是說因為到現在風向都還在轉移當中所以火可能還會延燒那我們也希望說這個大火可以盡快早日平息那就我們橋團的部分有跟我們橋教中心密切聯繫知道說現在因為很多人被預先撤離或者已經撤離好久的"},{"start":7789.898,"end":7813.011,"text":"那這些人的安置計畫我們也都有一些僑團在提供協助好 那麼因為我如果看Google Map的話是距離我們的洛杉磯華僑文教服務中心9英里啦當然我不知道這個9英里的距離對於現在的風勢或火力上面會不會受到影響應該不會 因為15公里的範圍很大如果燒到我們這邊大概洛杉磯就全部可能十分之九燒完了"},{"start":7813.251,"end":7833.781,"text":"所以包括相關的通訊或者是服務的部分就不會有受到影響可以能夠維持至少讓我們在洛杉磯的僑民朋友或者是旅外的台灣人都還是有機會可以做一個正常的通訊聯繫有 目前我們所在的地方還有幾個重要僑團的據點他們都沒有受到任何影響"},{"start":7834.801,"end":7839.788,"text":"那麼這個部分的話也要請我們委員長我們隨時會update資訊是沒錯因為我們可以看到齁這次其實連台灣都關心是因為幾個剛好知名的Youtuber啊他們也都好住在這個區域裡面他們都把親身經歷告訴我們了那麼"},{"start":7850.643,"end":7865.728,"text":"也因為這個樣子所以我們會更加的了解所以其實網路是相對的重要的那麼本席其實一直都在關心就是我們的網路服務等等那像上一次我質詢之後其實我們就做了一些改版然後也更友善的來應對就是我們新生代的僑親這個部分真的要給僑委會一個讚就是在這個過程當中你們其實要處理的事情很多啦但是能夠有一些進步但是就是這樣委員"},{"start":7879.333,"end":7903.652,"text":"之所以是身為委員就是因為我們要對於行政單位做一些監督本席又特別找到這個英文網站沒有更新之外這個不懂的中文的這個是不是就會被丟包而且好友居然加不進去這個都是小事但是我都很希望在網站的建制跟設計的時候使用要站在使用者的角度我們除了建制之外是不是可以能夠"},{"start":7904.753,"end":7914.023,"text":"有機會就是說自己也去用一下那這個就是一個小小的部分本席再提出來我相信回去應該馬上就會改進就是你按中文加好友沒問題可是英文的加好友加不進去而且是什麼是好友滿了不能加怎麼會這樣子咧"},{"start":7924.153,"end":7933.281,"text":"我知道啦 這個像本席本席的LINE也是好友滿的不能加這個是不是有什麼操作上或設定上的問題就請委員長回去的時候持續來瞭解一下好 我們再來調查看看另外最後一個這個部分也是這樣就是本席現在因為參加一些僑委會或是台商的活動有機會更認識我們海外僑親的一帶"},{"start":7946.673,"end":7966.581,"text":"那麼我也知道僑委會在有關於青年海外青年大使的部分也持續在做陪不論是互動或者是培育或者是說跟他們一起來做連結這個部分本席也要高度的肯定但是在做完這些活動之後有沒有其他更多的延續"},{"start":7967.461,"end":7989.442,"text":"比如在這裡我接觸到一些他們都是海外的二代那麼他們都是參加了活動之後更認同我們自己的國家中華民國可是他們常常有一種想法是做完活動之後他們能夠跟僑委會更多的連結是什麼那是不是可以更有機會協助來做一些僑務活動顯然他們很願意來當年輕的大使"},{"start":7992.785,"end":8006.793,"text":"可是好像活動完了就解散然後包括現在又有一個senior的FASCAL的培育那跟原本的又有什麼樣的不一樣在這裡就是不知道我來跟委員說明一下這個FASCAL"},{"start":8008.854,"end":8029.233,"text":"是青年文化大使那是指17歲以下的這些高中生那他們是經過好幾個學期持續性的在週末參加這些活動那一旦有橋界重大的一些活動他們都會出來當志工這是第一個那Senior Fasca是指說他18歲以後"},{"start":8030.014,"end":8036.096,"text":"他已經畢業高中畢業然後到各地去讀書或工作的這些人我們覺得我們培養了那麼多人六七千人如果沒有再把他們reunion是很可惜所以我們兩年前就開始說把這些以前被培訓過的他們還有心願意回來的我們就把這些年輕人再找回來然後也依著他們的專業還有他們的這個生命的career的狀態來分門別類"},{"start":8057.301,"end":8063.563,"text":"做一些不同的專案規劃那有一些很熱心的就回來變成是我們FASCA的導師或者是輔導員那或者我們在做一些這個職涯的這個專案的時候呢我們也會讓這些Senior FASCA的人呢能夠參與因為他很多人剛好還在讀大學或者大學即將要畢業或者剛剛出社會他想要去創業所以我們把這一群Senior FASCA的呢在"},{"start":8085.209,"end":8109.878,"text":"更進一步培養是希望他們有朝一日他們會變成是我們僑團的最中間力量那未來我們很多的僑社都要交給他們那我相信這一群人是最有使命感然後對台灣的認同也是最高的我非常認同徐委員長的這一段話因為最近跟他們接觸之後就會發現說他們常常會提到他們在海外的時候他們感受到像以色列他們是如何"},{"start":8110.518,"end":8117.08,"text":"透過他們在海外的一些第二代第三代把國家的狀況或面臨的問題他們成為這個遍佈全世界的這樣的一個宣傳大使所以回來的時候他們也會特別一直跟我們討論說如果可以的話他們希望從僑委會這邊為一個據點可以幫台灣做外交那麼"},{"start":8132.526,"end":8135.61,"text":"我蠻期待就是說接下來包括僑委會這裡如何來跟我們的海外的青年文化大使來做一個整合那麼我也希望說在2025年的時候這些預算當中也可以有更多是在這裡跟他們做一些交流"},{"start":8149.188,"end":8162.257,"text":"會 我們會集中能量讓下一代的所以我們今年整體總和目標叫做Move to Next Generation那因為大部分的第二第三代他們都已經是當地國的主流包括他們的人脈同學同事他們的思想教育等等那這些人會變成是我們很好的橋樑我們在各國就會未來有很強的一批尖兵在海外對我們在第一線打拚好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":8179.188,"end":8194.956,"text":"辛苦謝謝林楚瑩委員委員長請回沈博洋委員 沈博洋 沈博洋委員不在接下來我們請葉元之委員上台質詢委員長好 親自委員長"},{"start":8208.131,"end":8209.472,"text":"也請委員長葉委員你好委員長好其實上次我有反映那個僑胞在海外他們要回來讀書的有遇到那個教育部跟僑友會窗口的問題我不知道委員長後來有沒有去解決這件事情有 我們昨天傍晚才跟教育部又再開會都在做橫向的協調"},{"start":8233.943,"end":8248.297,"text":"對 因為很常有僑胞反應這件事情的原因是因為不管是新南向專班或是產西專班僑員會都是主要在對僑胞窗口嘛但是因為那些學生回來之後又歸教育部管啦對在這個銜接上面他們常常覺得很困擾"},{"start":8248.817,"end":8265.684,"text":"主要是國內的學校是教育部同管但是學生本身都來自海外沒錯沒錯所以這個部分可能要請那個委員長多費一點心啦因為那些學生有時候他們也許他們從小都是在海外長大嘛回台灣來講的話他們一個陌生環境是對對對好那我現在想來問一下僑委會這個3加4僑生專班的這個成效的問題"},{"start":8270.686,"end":8284.392,"text":"因為我們當然這個三家四僑生專班利益良善我們是希望說能夠把海外一些優秀人來台灣讀書之後呢可以留在台灣嘛然後增加我們的勞動人口可是我們可以看到就是它的那個數據的表現譬如說在"},{"start":8288.852,"end":8304.676,"text":"這個112年的產息專班的畢業率才25.51大概四分之一左右很低然後留台率就是說他最後留在台灣才24.54不知道說委員長你滿意這樣的一個表現我非常不滿意但是我也有去了解早期從103年10年前的這一批入學當時的人數並不是很多"},{"start":8311.578,"end":8316.299,"text":"因為當時我們沒有設定比較清楚的這些標準包括說進來讀書的學生年齡可能是很大了你現在剛剛12歲以下嘛對對對當時都是還有將近30歲的也進來讀所以他們很快又認識男女朋友又去結婚生孩子然後就很容易就輟學然後或者因為家庭的因素經濟的因素就離開所以我們有檢討了前幾年因為這都是開辦初期"},{"start":8336.024,"end":8359.685,"text":"所以開辦初期的這些狀況因為整個方案也不成熟然後誘因也不多然後加上說因為沒有做好這個年齡的管制所以後面我們現在都有做很好的一些規劃那您預期說透過改善之後大概您預期流台率會到多少未來三年這個流台率跟畢業率我們第一個要求畢業率包括說從這個技高端高職轉接這個科技大學"},{"start":8365.269,"end":8377.766,"text":"畢業率跟銜接率一定要夠高如果沒有達到我們的標準標準是多少標準我們希望能夠達到八成到九成對 八成到九成然後再讀四年留下來我們希望至少畢業率要到九成畢業率要到九成對 畢業率要到九成因為我們現在逐漸的"},{"start":8380.869,"end":8400.894,"text":"我要加碼給很多這個蘿蔔所以他要能夠達到而且他們很需要這些學生我也給他師資的協助也給他很多方案的協助那所以學校我相信未來會很認真的來辦所以你的意思是說大概希望預計三年後他們的畢業率可以到九成可以那留台率的話就看產學媒合的狀況就會提高而且我們兩年前開始真的也開辦僑生就業博覽會因為"},{"start":8408.676,"end":8421.783,"text":"這個都是之前的之前因為沒有這些配套措施所以只有單一方案第一個就不容易招生所以人數都很少第二個因為年齡沒有限制他很容易到二三十歲他去結婚了就離開了我懂我懂這剛剛有講過所以你的目標還"},{"start":8424.404,"end":8447.85,"text":"定的還蠻高的啦希望你要努力達成那有海外的那個僑領建議啦有些學生回來讀書的時候因為他中文不好所以他就對這個課程失去興趣也造成他的離開學校啦所以我們昨天特別跟有人建議說是不是說可以回來之後先讀一年中文然後再銜接這個三加四你覺得有可能嗎"},{"start":8448.63,"end":8458.898,"text":"現在是這樣我們有昨天跟教育部開會確實有幾個配套方案我們第一個就是會廣泛在海外設立這個基地開辦這個華語密集班華語研習營你說等他們再回來幾天"},{"start":8465.602,"end":8484.83,"text":"申請前我們就讓他先有機會上華語那華語的程度提到一個程度以後如果被我們錄取了來到台灣前三個月前一個學期全部都要學華語所以我們有加強班昨天就是在跟教育部開會協調說可不可以要求第一個學期這個華語的課程呢"},{"start":8488.251,"end":8497.817,"text":"比例加重然後其他的課程相對的延到後面因為我還有別的問題希望喬委會加油啦因為委員長我印象中好像之前你也都在喬委會嘛對那為什麼這些問題你之前都沒發現你當委員長才發現是前一個委員長的問題是不是"},{"start":8507.523,"end":8524.465,"text":"不是 因為之前我業館的範圍不包括喬教生 喬生不包括 了解了解原來分這麼細我們分得很清楚 對那之前的委員長可能就有點失職了我不知道好 沒關係第二個問題也是一樣因為我們現在喬委會也有在海外設一個台灣華語文學"},{"start":8525.686,"end":8550.838,"text":"台灣華語文的學習中心嘛那時候我還有看過報導說這是要對抗那個中國的孔子學院我們層次沒有到這麼低我們有更高的戰略目標當然啦當然啦戰略目標更高啦但是要讓海外不管是台灣人也好就是國際人士都一樣嘛但問題是這個成效也是一樣喔我提出來一個隨便舉一個成效就好了如果你要對"},{"start":8552.058,"end":8577.848,"text":"海外的人士讓他們學習華語引起他們興趣的話那宣傳管道要夠嘛可是我們看到你們的很多影片點閱率都很低像有的兩百多有的四十有的三十有的七十那如果對外宣傳的點閱率那麼低的話好像就達不太到效果那這個部分有什麼改善計畫嗎有些這個都不是我們官方製造的就是說各個我當然知道嘛這是自然流量嘛但是我們現在講就是自然流量太低"},{"start":8578.328,"end":8580.129,"text":"因為我們都不會去下廣告然後就是當地華語文中心的學員他們自己拖的這就是問題了因為我們錢真的很少第一個你有目標嘛你的目標就是說要讓海外的國際人士來學中文我們還有更高的戰略目標"},{"start":8598.744,"end":8608.452,"text":"對那結果我們目標遠大但是我們的執行很渺小就計時委員我們需要的是經費因為如果我們經費不提升我們的這個這個應該是經費也沒有說不夠啦看你怎麼運用沒有看你怎麼運用啦像有一些"},{"start":8614.156,"end":8628.332,"text":"比如說網紅他內容很好他不需要廣告預算所以我們今年又開始點閱率也很高所以你不能把點閱率的少直接把它歸因維美內容還是王道我知道委員的意思所以你還要透過很多管道去宣傳所以目標遠大"},{"start":8629.173,"end":8651.271,"text":"就要有執行力啦好不好好的請委員也多支持我們的預算我們都沒有刪你預算啊但是你要努力啊你不能說因為我沒有努力都歸咎於沒有錢啊這樣回答也不是很我們會很努力對有限的預算我們會繼續持續的來推進有限的預算是在太偏低是幾十太偏低了好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝葉雲芝委員委員長請回"},{"start":8661.892,"end":8676.222,"text":"已登記質詢的委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有沈伯陽委員馬文君委員黃仁委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以"},{"start":8679.404,"end":8694.481,"text":"書面與兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者疫情相關單位與書面兩週內提供委員另約定期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束 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如有提案委員口頭同意改為主決議及原案為主決議修正部分文字通過者請衛生福利部盡速與提案委員溝通後將書面修正文字送至主席台然後我們現在就開始審查請議事人員先讀衛生福利部主管單位預算之科目金額委員提案"},{"start":2209.011,"end":2217.735,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算衛生福利部主管非營業部分依作業基金醫療藥品基金業務計劃因依據業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等向之審查結果隨同調整業務總收入471億6814萬6000元"},{"start":2227.179,"end":2229.24,"text":"業務總支出452億4374萬元本期剩餘19億2440萬6千元結繳供庫金額無劣數轉投資計劃無劣數固定資產建設改良擴充44億4276萬9千元國庫增撥基金額1億1467萬5千元"},{"start":2244.747,"end":2266.952,"text":"二作業基金管制藥品製藥工廠作業基金業務計劃同醫療藥品基金業務總收入九億七千二百八十五萬八千元業務總支出七億二千二百七十三萬九千元本期剩餘二億五千零一十一萬九千元結繳供戶金額二億元轉投資計劃五列數固定資產建設改良擴充一億一千五百七十四萬三千元"},{"start":2267.712,"end":2273.277,"text":"國庫增撥基金額無劣數3 作業基金全民健康保險基金業務計畫同醫療藥品基金業務總收入8711億0587萬6千元業務總支出同業務總收入本期剩餘0元"},{"start":2283.565,"end":2304.447,"text":"截繳公庫金額無劣數轉投資計劃無劣數固定資產建設改良擴充三千二百四十萬二千元國庫增撥基金額無劣數四作業基金國民年金保險基金業務計劃同醫療藥品基金業務總收入一千三百一十七億七千四百五十四萬五千元業務總支出同業務總收入本期剩餘零元截繳公庫金額無劣數"},{"start":2305.988,"end":2308.37,"text":"轉投資計劃無劣數固定資產建設改良擴充9707萬9千元國庫增撥基金額無劣數五特別收入基金衛生福利特別收入基金業務計劃應依據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整"},{"start":2321.218,"end":2326.743,"text":"基金來源990億1078萬2千元基金用途1152億4664萬1千元本期短處162億3585萬9千元結繳公庫無劣數繼續宣讀委員提案一 醫療藥品基金一 委員邱振軍廖偉祥盧憲一提案業務收入醫療收入減列4億元二 委員蘇清泉等提案"},{"start":2344.479,"end":2358.573,"text":"業務成本與費用門診醫療成本水電費減列六百萬元凍結十分之一三委員成交資等提案管理費用及總務費用旅運費國外旅費全數減列四委員抽薦軍料偽詳如先一提案用人費用凍結五百萬元"},{"start":2359.594,"end":2387.365,"text":"五 委員邱振均、廖偉祥、盧憲一提案固定資產建設改良擴充凍結五百萬元六 委員邱振均、廖偉祥、盧憲一提案為主決議二 管制藥品製藥工廠作業基金第七至第十案為委員陳金輝、王育敏、陳昭志提案七 業務外收入凍結十分之一八 業務成本與費用銷貨成本凍結二十分之三九 業務費用凍結十分之一十 研究發展費用使用材料費研發用原物料凍結十分之三"},{"start":2387.825,"end":2416.334,"text":"十一委員蘇清泉等提案為主決議三全民健康保險基金十二委員陳清輝等提案業務成本與費用保險成本呆帳凍結十分之一十三委員陳清輝等提案其他業務成本雜項業務成本旅運費凍結十分之一十四委員陳清輝等提案專業服務費凍結十分之一十五委員陳清輝等提案材料及用品費凍結十分之一十六委員陳清輝等提案為主決議十七委員蘇清泉等提案為主決議"},{"start":2417.414,"end":2426.642,"text":"4.國民年金保險基金18.委員蘇清泉等提案業務成本與費用業務費用水電費減列10萬元凍結1%19.委員蘇清泉等提案媒體政策及業務宣導費凍結1%20.21案為主決議為委員陳金輝等提案5.衛生福利特別收入基金2223案為委員陳金輝王育敏陳昭芝提案"},{"start":2439.173,"end":2456.76,"text":"二二全民健康保險紓困基金其他收入雜項收入增列三百萬元二三預防接種受害救濟基金徵收收入醫療衛生救濟提撥收入增列一千萬元二四委員陳金輝等提案食品安全保護基金違規罰款收入增列一千萬元"},{"start":2457.98,"end":2481.378,"text":"25委員陳金威王玉敏陳昭資提案社會福利基金勞務收入增列五百萬元26委員蘇清泉等提案媒體政策及業務宣導費減列十分之一凍結十分之一27委員劉建國等提案醫療發展基金提升醫療資源不足地區醫療服務品質計畫減列二百萬元凍結五百萬元28委員王玉敏等提案柯木桐二十七案凍結一千萬元"},{"start":2483.223,"end":2511.832,"text":"二九委員陳昭芝等提案健康照護績效提升計劃專業服務費凍結一百萬元三十委員王玉明等提案沿海防治及衛生保健基金向下計劃媒體政策及業務宣導費減列一千萬元凍結二千萬元三一委員蘇清泉等提案科目同三十案凍結十分之一三二至三十六案科目為沿海防治工作三十二委員劉建國等提案減列二百萬元凍結五百萬元三三委員蘇清泉等提案減列一百萬元"},{"start":2512.532,"end":2540.103,"text":"三四委員蘇清泉等提案凍結十分之一三五委員蘇清泉盧憲一王玉敏提案凍結十分之一三六委員林月琴等提案凍結一百五十萬元三七委員陳瑩等提案補助地方煙害防治工作凍結二千萬元三八委員陳瑩等提案營造無煙支持環境辦理煙害教育宣導凍結一千萬元三九委員陳瑩等提案提供多元化戒煙服務凍結八千萬元四十委員陳昭志等提案"},{"start":2540.623,"end":2554.508,"text":"戒菸服務品質與管理論表現計酬代謝症候群獎勵計劃凍結10萬元四億委員承迎等提案辦理菸害防治研究及監測凍結1000萬元四二委員黃秀芳等提案衛生保健工作簡略200萬元"},{"start":2556.368,"end":2584.22,"text":"43委員陳昭芝等提案提升婦女健康及母子保健服務凍結200萬元44委員蘇清泉盧憲一王玉敏提案孕產婦及嬰幼兒健康促進與高風險健康管理凍結十分之一45委員陳金輝等提案柯木桐44案凍結十分之一46委員陳瑩等提案推動兒童青少年健康促進工作口腔保健計畫含特殊族群凍結4000萬元47委員蘇清泉盧憲一王玉敏提案"},{"start":2584.68,"end":2611.338,"text":"口腔保健計畫凍結十分之一四八委員劉建國等提案推動中老年健康促進減劣二百萬元凍結二百萬元四九委員林月琴等提案衛生保健工作之發展及管考凍結五十萬元五十委員劉建國等提案推動營養與健康飲食工作減劣一百萬元凍結五百萬元五一委員陳瑩等提案柯文牧童五十案凍結一千萬元五二委員黃秀芳等提案健康飲食智能促進"},{"start":2611.938,"end":2637.244,"text":"健康體位管理工作辦理相關教育訓練及營造健康飲食支持環境檢列50萬元53委員蘇清泉盧憲一王育敏提案癌症防治工作凍結十分之一54委員陳盈等提案科目同53案凍結2億5000萬元55委員邱振軍蘇清泉盧憲一提案科目同53案凍結100萬元56委員陳昭芝等提案推動主要癌症篩檢服務凍結200萬元"},{"start":2639.793,"end":2665.332,"text":"五七委員陳盈等提案捐助補助與講助推動主要癌症篩檢服務婦女乳癌篩檢檢列八百萬元凍結二千萬元五八至六十案委委員陳金輝王玉敏陳昭資提案五八預防接種受害救濟基金預防接種受害救濟給付計劃凍結五百萬元五九一般行政管理計劃檢列二十萬元六十柯木桐五十九案凍結十分之一六億委員邱振軍蘇星璇盧憲一提案"},{"start":2666.693,"end":2685.647,"text":"疫苗基金疫苗接種計劃凍結五百萬元六二委員陳金輝王育敏成招資提案疫苗接種計劃推展費凍結十分之一六三委員陳金輝王育敏成招資提案疫苗接種計劃材料及用品費用品消耗凍結十分之一六四委員邱振軍蘇清泉盧憲一提案"},{"start":2686.127,"end":2701.264,"text":"疫苗接種計畫用品消耗COVID-19疫苗凍結一千萬元65委員陳金輝等提案食品安全保護基金食品安全保護計畫捐助補助與獎助凍結十分之一66委員陳金輝王育敏呈交資提案"},{"start":2701.724,"end":2716.836,"text":"社會福利基金福利服務計劃凍結二十分之三六七委員陳盈等提案柯木同六十六案凍結二億元六八委員邱振軍廖偉祥蘇清泉提案柯木同六十六案凍結五百萬元六九委員陳金輝王玉敏陳昭芝提案"},{"start":2717.316,"end":2731.838,"text":"公財回饋推展社福計劃凍結二十分之一七十委員邱振軍蘇清泉廖偉翔提案柯木同六十九案凍結五百萬元七億委員劉建國等提案公財回饋推展社福計劃推展費減列二百萬元凍結二百萬元"},{"start":2733.34,"end":2751.925,"text":"七二委員陳金輝、王玉敏、陳昭芝提案家庭暴力及性侵害防治基金暴力防治三級預防計劃凍結十分之一七三委員陳昭芝等提案柯牧童七十二案凍結二百萬元七四委員蘇清泉等提案暴力防治三級預防計劃媒體政策及業務宣導費凍結十分之一"},{"start":2753.605,"end":2773.866,"text":"七五委員王玉敏等提案長照服務發展基金媒體政策及業務宣導費減列一千萬元凍結一千萬元七六至八十案科目為完善長照服務輸送體系計畫七十六委員陳昭芝等提案凍結十分之一七七委員王玉敏等提案凍結二千萬元七八委員陳昭芝等提案凍結五百萬元"},{"start":2774.907,"end":2788.219,"text":"79委員陳瑩武麗華等提案凍結500萬元80委員林月琴等提案凍結150萬元81委員陳昭芝王玉敏陳委員陳金輝王玉敏陳招資提案完善長照服務輸送體系計劃專業服務費凍結十分之一"},{"start":2792.332,"end":2819.461,"text":"八二委員蘇清泉等提案完善長照服務輸送體系計劃媒體政策及業務宣導費凍結十分之一八三委員陳金輝王玉敏陳昭資提案柯木桐八十二案凍結十分之一八四委員陳金輝王玉敏陳昭資提案完善長照服務輸送體系計劃捐助補助與獎助凍結十分之一八五委員劉憲國等提案發展失職社區照護服務凍結五百萬元八六委員陳瑩等提案"},{"start":2820.141,"end":2844.971,"text":"獎助居家市及社區市長照機構資源部件凍結五億元八七委員劉建國等提案強化長照機構服務管轄失能及連續性照護服務計劃凍結五百萬元八八至九四案為主決議八十八委員黃秀芳等提案八九至九十一案為委員陳金輝等提案九二委員林月琴等提案九三至九十四案為委員陳金輝等提案宣讀完畢"},{"start":2853.752,"end":2878.49,"text":"好那我們現在就開始主案討論齁總共有94個案每案先行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見那我們在開始之前我跟大家報告齁今天是我們主祕郭東瑞主祕最後一天站起來馬上就要脫衣服了"},{"start":2880.89,"end":2880.91,"text":"好"},{"start":2905.799,"end":2932.569,"text":"第一案第一案跟主席委員報告那第一案邱正英委員這個部分他已經改組決議已經簽名了最主要是因為這邊的我們醫療這個服務的輔導這個部分是我們衛福部所屬醫院的人事費用所以跟他說明以後他也清楚所以原本的簡略跟凍結他就是願意改成組決議已經簽名"},{"start":2935.245,"end":2960.633,"text":"所以第一案改組決議所以第二案蘇委員這邊也是跟蘇委員這個主席趙薇這邊也溝通過因為水電費其實會影響這個我們衛福部所屬醫院在偏鄉離島的這些費用所以經過跟委員說明以後原本簡略跟凍結那蘇趙薇也同意改組決議已經簽名以上好改組決議"},{"start":2961.613,"end":2976.278,"text":"第三案陳昭芝 還沒到齁先給他保留全署檢列跟私人等他來啦 等他來 好不好第四案"},{"start":2978.438,"end":2994.622,"text":"第四案也是邱正軍委員他對我們也是我們所屬醫院就是用人成本的費用因為是影響我們所屬醫院的用人費用所以原本從凍結五百萬經過說明溝通改組決議已經簽名以上"},{"start":2998.163,"end":3010.95,"text":"好改組決議第五案第五案也是邱正勳委員那他針對我們的固定資產那是從這個我們的醫療醫院輔導費用裡面要凍結那會影響就是我們所屬醫院要購置設備儀器這個部分原本凍結500萬那經過溝通說明以後他改組決議已經簽名"},{"start":3022.233,"end":3048.333,"text":"部長你很強,你的團隊很強來第六案第六案也是邱正軍委員,那就是我們已經跟他說明以後就是他願意修正文字已經簽名以上所以是主決議嘛好那來機關署的"},{"start":3049.639,"end":3066.475,"text":"第七案第七案是陳靜薇謝謝陳委員那個跟委員溝通後同意改委員已經同意改組決議並修正文字委員已經簽名了所以該組決議第七案"},{"start":3076.314,"end":3100.8,"text":"第八案 呃 謝謝陳委員 委員已經同意改那個三五十萬 那科目自行調整 委員已經簽名了好 第八案 三減五十萬科目自行調整 對好 第九案 呃 謝謝委員 那委員已經同意這個三減五十萬 那科目自行調整 那委員已經簽名了好"},{"start":3101.929,"end":3130.414,"text":"同意三減五十萬科目自行調整第十案謝謝陳委員那個委員已經同意三案一百萬元科目自行調整那委員已經簽名了好三一百萬科目自行調整第十一案謝謝蘇昭偉委員已經因同意修正文字那改組決議已經簽名了好再來第三大項第十案"},{"start":3135.486,"end":3149.335,"text":"十二案謝謝陳慶輝委員已經同意改組決議好改組決議十三案十三案謝謝陳慶輝委員已經同意改成組決議十中兩厲害"},{"start":3153.464,"end":3159.268,"text":"第14案是陳昭之委員的第15案也是謝謝陳慶輝委員改成主決議16案陳慶輝委員的主決議遵照辦理17案是蘇昭偉的主決議修正文字後我們遵照辦理"},{"start":3183.235,"end":3185.697,"text":"來第四項國民年金保險基金18"},{"start":3207.685,"end":3220.99,"text":"18案是那個蘇委員的水電費19案是那個媒體的宣導費這兩案都被凍結十分之一你看要減六多少啦 自己講啦這樣比較快啦"},{"start":3224.915,"end":3228.817,"text":"可不可以不要動減因為那個那個水電費減劣減劣減劣減劣減劣減劣減劣減劣減劣減劣減劣減劣減劣減劣"},{"start":3243.283,"end":3263.721,"text":"在逐年成長中所以整個辦公時間很長所以以致電費用量在增加其實我們都一直在例行各種節約的措施那電用電量是有微幅的下漲但是整個還是不知這個電費的漲幅啦所以我們考量110年到112年用電情況跟調整的幅度其實我們只比"},{"start":3265.162,"end":3277.567,"text":"113年後增加16萬2000元所以這部分是不是其實我們已經很很用心在做這一塊是不是可以請我們這邊免於凍結讓我們以主決議的方式就繼續要求我們落實各種這個用電節電的計劃"},{"start":3284.778,"end":3293.345,"text":"委員我們是不是動10萬元因為我們只增加16萬我們只比去年增加16萬動我們10萬塊可不可以委員幫忙那個第18案檢列10萬塊啦不凍結啦好不好"},{"start":3302.641,"end":3305.164,"text":"那我們可不可以減劣10萬然後科目執行調整"},{"start":3320.209,"end":3332.873,"text":"檢列十萬啦客戶自己調整好不好那第十九項這個宣傳會這個一定要要有所交代所以直接檢列我不要再凍結了直接檢列檢列一千萬"},{"start":3338.855,"end":3360.468,"text":"國民年輕的被保險人都是比較經濟弱勢他很需要一些資訊的傳達其實我們都很用心的製作各種宣傳這樣才可以維持我們的繳費率然後讓民眾能夠獲得老年經濟的保障這些問問請他相較於其他的被保險人更需要宣導更需要了解"},{"start":3365.146,"end":3387.408,"text":"那個趙偉你應該也知道就是說有參加國民年金他就是沒有勞保沒有農保其他保險就全部加入這個國民年金嘛那國民年金通常我們在地方我碰到了這些民眾其實他有時候也不知道一間部也不知道說他沒留保了他是我們主動幫他加入到國民年金"},{"start":3387.948,"end":3407.087,"text":"所以他也不會主動說要去繳費因為應災或者是經濟弱勢的話他也沒有錢去繳所以有時候就是也要透過媒體或者是這個郵寄的方式他才有辦法得知這樣的一個訊息啦所以如果你把它刪的話其實我覺得這樣會影響到整個國民年金的運作"},{"start":3411.802,"end":3419.011,"text":"凍結100萬然後報告再支用這樣好不好委員凍50萬好不好真的啦委員請委員多多支持我們好凍結50萬好謝謝委員支持來20 20萬"},{"start":3432.609,"end":3452.097,"text":"二十案呢也是國民年金的那個財務的精算報告的那個建議那謝謝那個陳金輝委員是我們主決議我們在一個月內提出那個方案跟對策這個是對這個文字然後那個委員也已經簽名二十案"},{"start":3453.567,"end":3480.394,"text":"那21案呢也是陳清輝委員謝謝陳清輝委員委員也已經簽名了然後這個部分呢我們會再會照辦對會提出改善計劃好謝謝再來衛生福利特別收入基金22案22案陳清輝委員提案增列300萬的預算數我們修正文字後遵照辦理"},{"start":3486.011,"end":3509.16,"text":"收入面收入面增加收入面所以OK嘛就是那個後面文字修正後我們就照列列300萬好那就照文字修正照列23案23案謝謝陳委員陳慶輝委員那委員已經簽名同意改組決議好改組決議"},{"start":3515.336,"end":3536.95,"text":"24萬 謝謝陳委員我們已經改增加收入100萬 委員已經簽字了好 增列100萬 先簽名25萬陳金惠委員提案對於部署機構的勞務收入需要增加500萬元經過跟委員報告以後也謝謝委員已經同意簽名改增列勞務收入100萬好 就改增列100萬"},{"start":3543.648,"end":3544.089,"text":"五百萬改成一百萬"},{"start":3547.028,"end":3573.375,"text":"好,26萬26萬,現在趙偉跟趙偉溝通就是沒先費用啦,不過趙偉口頭說同意讓我們改為主協議但是趙偉還沒有簽名,是不是可以同意我們因為國民監事組你也知道所有的議員保健都必須要透過媒體先導希望能夠提升整體的篩檢率所以我們一定要去做相關的先導的作業,所以拜託趙偉能夠同意"},{"start":3576.737,"end":3598.163,"text":"你那些宣傳的媒體都用那些很漏物的我們會嘗試各類的方式啦現在年輕人都以前都沒好人家沒在看年輕人都用那些新媒體啊對啊你可能要往那個方向去努力啊是是不是我現在生氣都要靠年輕人"},{"start":3600.925,"end":3603.611,"text":"二十七案二十七案的話是劉建國委員說要現場處理"},{"start":3609.929,"end":3612.59,"text":"這案我還是提醒一下衛福部主要是因為這邊是醫療發展基金你就是要平衡這個城鄉差距"},{"start":3637.608,"end":3662.731,"text":"但是現在坦白講雲林跟嘉義在這個醫療資源上面其實是蠻弱勢的但是雲林跟嘉義老年人口又特別多特別嘉義縣所以在這個相關的醫療資源我之前在公務預算其實也有類似的提案這個請部長要特別去注意你現在所有的那個醫學中心的分布坦白講是蠻不均的"},{"start":3664.546,"end":3681.664,"text":"高度集中在北部地區但是這種資源越弱勢的地方你反而沒有一個政策去獎勵或去肯定或去提升比如說讓它變成是準醫學中心那也是一種肯定因為它會變成是一個你如果有去提拔它的話它會變成一個正向循環"},{"start":3682.865,"end":3711.363,"text":"資源越少的地方醫護越不願意在那邊他可能就越往這個比較都會地區跑那你這邊如果相對有一些獎勵型的你去認可在地長期經營而且經營的不錯你去肯定他那你會讓那些醫護人員覺得說在這邊其實也一樣可以作為生涯做一個長期服務那你的醫療資源你的人才其實才會就是繼續在這些比較弱勢的地方我是覺得你們政策上面"},{"start":3712.104,"end":3716.636,"text":"這個可能整體應該要去做一些的調整好不好這個提案最重要的目的在這邊謝謝"},{"start":3721.673,"end":3748.289,"text":"第29案陳昭志委員我們已經獲得委員簽名該出決議主席我可不可以利用這個時間跟你請求一下好不好因為我程序有一點不是那麼完整蔡教就是這樣這個醫療事故處理的部分最近也出現一個非常嚴重的問題也請部長這邊多了解看怎麼處理啦就是說我們也知道自從上一次2023年修刑事訴訟法以後"},{"start":3748.849,"end":3769.728,"text":"目前在醫療依舊的鑑定的部分沒有人要出來鑑定所以到目前為止已經累積了322件的案子因為沒有依舊沒有人鑑定他們就沒有辦法開庭開庭他也沒有辦法再做審查這會嚴重影響到當事人家屬還有醫師各方面的權益"},{"start":3770.989,"end":3788.146,"text":"所以本來是想說能不能利用今天的時間提一個主決議不過剛剛好像有點程序上認為不太適當如果主席願意的話當然是最好可以啊可以啊好不好所以這不可能那個鑑定一件是多少錢因為我有鑑定要簽名"},{"start":3789.741,"end":3795.544,"text":"我可以發問嗎主席王振旭委員我想問一下您說的鑑定是經過這個協調庭之後的那個鑑定嗎"},{"start":3812.797,"end":3841.767,"text":"依舊的部分現在是不是會先協調補充程序就是那個整個程序我先講一下第一件事情那個是要提告之後提告之後可能會有檢察官或者是法院那邊請求就是是說衛福部這邊來我們的醫生會來幫忙做依舊的鑑定然後那現在其實我們從去年一整年協助處理民事因為民事的"},{"start":3843.108,"end":3863.883,"text":"訴訟規則沒有改變所以我們也做了民事的鑑定221案然後刑事鑑定重點剛剛我們部長有特別講是居民的問題因為居民的問題意見很小其實很容易會有人身安全的擔心然後主要是因為遊戲規則改了所以我們在這個地方上面沒有辦法去處理可是我們陸陸續續有跟那個"},{"start":3866.914,"end":3895.675,"text":"司法院還有法務部這邊做一些溝通協調就是盡可能減少衝擊第一件事情是我們去年上路的抑鬱法是去年113年1月1號之後的才先走這個制度就受所謂的強制調解調解的這一塊然後這個是訴訟外紛爭解決機制然後他的效果成立就有如檢疫判決這個所以我們盡可能的推然後所以我們"},{"start":3897.016,"end":3921.567,"text":"去年11月的時候有跟衛生局因為10月的時候跟法務部溝通法務部是說那113年之前的就是112年年底是不是可以也走同樣的制度然後11月的時候我們跟衛生局協調過其實就把案子送進來在當事人都同意的前提下面我們也盡量的減少案源然後另外一塊的話就會是說專家鑑定是"},{"start":3925.349,"end":3945.615,"text":"鑑定制度有一個機關鑑定有一個是專家鑑定機關鑑定為府部協助法務部所以有我們一審會然後那專家鑑定這邊有沒有可能有一些突破所以我們目前兩個部跟司法院一起在處理這一段以上補充那可以請教一下市長現在你們這個調解成功率大概是幾成嗎44%"},{"start":3947.956,"end":3971.902,"text":"四成多所以還是有六成會需要走到這個鑑定他可能會走鑑定可能不夠就是比例上面這個我們還在看就是後續的發展可是最起碼我們的重點就會是也謝謝委員這邊支持是我們這個制度需要再讓成功率提高還有一些相關的教育訓練跟宣導這邊需要做也謝謝委員支持"},{"start":3973.937,"end":3988.335,"text":"所以這個部分我們會後來再後續處理主要就是針對目前已經成案需要這個依舊鑑定的部分真的沒有醫師剛剛部長有提到沒有人敢出來啦這個重點在這裡所以我們要設法來處理"},{"start":3990.638,"end":4010.778,"text":"那其實最終我們有跟我們的那個明星政委法務政委有做過討論最終可能要走到修刑事訴訟法的這個可能會是total solution可是在這之前可能大家要討論的是相關的配套措施所以我們才會是說我們就一步一步第一件事情"},{"start":4011.338,"end":4025.25,"text":"雙方同意的其實我就先進行到調解不要進行到訴訟所以它還是可以法務部這邊的檢察署跟法院這邊還是可以把案子就是移到我們的醫療糾紛調解這邊來做處理然後這樣的話也可以減少一些案源然後"},{"start":4031.455,"end":4056.4,"text":"專家鑑定這一塊其實我們就大概跟專科的學會還有那個醫師公會全聯會一起討論看怎麼協助法務部把那個量再降下來因為刑事訴訟的量我們目前的話就是想辦法讓他的案件減少民事訴訟這部分因為完全沒有改變有息規則所以走的那個算是流程上面算是順的以上"},{"start":4057.423,"end":4070.213,"text":"好,謝謝我們委員會說這個在深渣案件不能夠再拆,拆那就是壞了所以沒關係,這次提案很好啦他說在疫苗協調會上,那個時候算更有力量就像前輩那樣,是給他送這樣"},{"start":4084.369,"end":4086.15,"text":"我覺得縣市衛生局的調節會效果很好像我們屏東縣幾乎八成都解決了"},{"start":4110.325,"end":4133.986,"text":"那個效果很好,要是沒有...如果現場所有委員都同意的話,是不是可以針對這個案?可以嗎?可以嗎?可以嗎?對啊,如果所有委員都同意的話...我再想看看我再想一下"},{"start":4136.556,"end":4162.371,"text":"所以你如果那個縣市衛生局那個地方讓他加強應該這個案子送到訴訟就少送到訴訟少給專家鑒定這專家鑒定真的壓力很大我不曉得那個部長你有審過我有審過齁寫一寫後來要簽名真的很沉重很沉重哈哈哈哈"},{"start":4166.747,"end":4189.384,"text":"主要是現在新改的刑事訴訟法必須要自然人簽名對 然後所以這也是為什麼我們醫生對 以前機關只要寫對 然後機關代表就是部長你台大醫院的書都沒要簽啦 沒要看啦"},{"start":4193.942,"end":4219.198,"text":"那個是兩塊一個是機關鑑定的也要自然人簽名一個是剛剛部長講的專家鑑定本來就是自然人對 然後民事鑑定民事訴訟因為沒有改所以還是可以用機關的名字去對 然後這一塊今天是這麼多錢 我要多少錢五千"},{"start":4224.036,"end":4243.005,"text":"沒人要照顧你照顧李國康我們有調升價錢啦對啦對啦要寫一張要託很多錢的因為你今天沒人寫啊託到五百年還出庭那真的不可能的事情啊沒人要寫啊欸這要改觀欸這真的要改觀 先看嘛"},{"start":4257.148,"end":4280.895,"text":"所以要加強縣市衛生局的那個調解會的功能對就是那個真的很重要源頭部分如果少一點然後現在是基案的部分的話所以才會是說你就也可以往我們的那個調解會這邊送然後大概也跟衛生局溝通過了所以盡可能的也是在協助減少那個檢查機關跟法院這邊的壓力"},{"start":4282.045,"end":4297.17,"text":"沒有 你如果走到刑事訴訟那個大家都不樂見了大家都很辛苦啦好 那就29案寫成招書嘛有簽名有簽名了嘛對對對好 那30案王一鳴的"},{"start":4300.395,"end":4329.695,"text":"那个三十案这边主要是有关于烟害防治的问题大家都知道这个112年我们烟害防治法已经明文禁止这个电子烟的部分但是你可以看到现在电子烟的管道还是非常的畅通而且它一卖可以这个几十万就这样子卖出去了这个数量也很庞大然后呢也没有立即遭到强制的下架跟开罚所以这个部分"},{"start":4330.275,"end":4358.924,"text":"國建署在執行有關於取締這個電子煙的部分我覺得做得不好還有需要改善的必要所以這個部分這個年度國建署還編了一億四千多萬要來做相關的媒體宣導但是你的宣導顯然沒有讓這些電子煙就是更下降或者是讓我們這些未成年人更知道怎麼樣不要去接觸所以這個成效其實是"},{"start":4359.844,"end":4382.904,"text":"不加的所以我這邊才會提出簡略跟凍結案那就希望說這一個國建署在這個部分要加強你整個真正落實你的淹害的仿制教育的宣導而且要去做檢討謝謝委員那委員所提的當然也許我們過去做的努力還不過但是我相信我們在"},{"start":4383.945,"end":4410.572,"text":"今年這七年底的時候我們在行政院召開跨部會的一個聯合稽查那我們衛福部也成立了所謂的電子菸的稽查小組就是稽查平台來做跨部會的一個整合那因為四社的不只是我們公民監管署或者衛福部單獨一個單位那很多都是在我特別是在網路的部分那這些無線網路的部分又涉及到台灣在"},{"start":4411.652,"end":4439.355,"text":"國內或者在境外的那有一些是搜索引擎的等等那我們逐步的已經去透過相關的管道還有跟溝通那必要的才華等手段那我相信大家也可以看得到目前像一些Meta比較大的像IG他們的數量已經大幅的減少那國內的一些B2B的商店的話那幾乎大概都已經下架都已經配合我們的政策"},{"start":4439.995,"end":4466.562,"text":"那目前比較大的一個困難點是在那個搜索引擎像Google還有這個Yahoo的搜索部分那這三個部分的話我們也積極在處理所以我想宣導是對於我們國民交通署相關的提升民眾的意識那讓民眾不要去接觸讓他們知道相關的電子間的跟家電的危害等等那最重要的宣導一定要讓他們能夠落實那更重要的就是我們要透過稽查的手段"},{"start":4469.509,"end":4487.09,"text":"所以還是委員這邊能夠能夠能夠同意我們改組決議或者是或者是改動少一點啦好不好動決一百萬動一百萬好不好動決一百萬好不好可以吧跟下面那個蘇委員那一位好不好你啦"},{"start":4489.164,"end":4492.068,"text":"來 我來 我講一下我給主席一個來 31項31 第31條對 31項 謝謝這個委員這個我要表達一下齁好 謝謝 謝謝我抽菸是"},{"start":4505.083,"end":4524.5,"text":"不好,不對那這一次的我們國建署要把那個添加27項都要把它刪掉嘛對不對,添加物的部分,那是預告那目前還在召開專家還沒有做最後的決定"},{"start":4525.134,"end":4546.452,"text":"那這個我們台灣研究公司有一些都有當修的啦我想他們都應該要提出他們的困難點或者是他們必須添加的一些方式那其實我們跟所有的製造業者都有提出希望他們提供意見給我們在後續的這個專家會議來討論那到底要進哪幾項那經過專家會議討論以後我們才會決定好"},{"start":4554.838,"end":4558.962,"text":"目前還在檢討當中,沒有做最後的定案這個要考慮一下劉委員說他會現場表達,但他原則同意我們改組決議原則同意改組決議"},{"start":4579.181,"end":4587.474,"text":"動100好不好所以我們要加強嘛動100啦好不好"},{"start":4590.874,"end":4602.317,"text":"好啦 那33案王毅民堅持 動200就200啦好啦好啦好啦 動200好啦好啦 動200那劉建國來要不要要不要齁先給他單一來單一來來33項31的部分就召回改組決議啦齁謝謝好3433的話 那個現在召回33現在召回齁 現在已經同意改組決議並修正文字簽名了 謝謝"},{"start":4618.757,"end":4624.839,"text":"3434謝謝我們蘇昭偉同意改組決議修正文字簽名謝謝3535謝謝我們蘇昭偉 盧瀉立還有王一鳴委員那謝謝昭偉已經同意修改文字改組決議已經簽名3636謝謝我們連內前委員那已經同意改組決議修改文字已經簽名"},{"start":4646.202,"end":4650.657,"text":"3737謝謝我們陳年委員那已經同意改為主決議修正文字也已經取得簽名"},{"start":4653.884,"end":4680.46,"text":"38 38謝謝我們前任委員那已經同意修改為主決議 修正文字那已取得簽名39 39跟委員溝通 委員最後是減列200萬元減列了 減列200萬元已取得簽名 對39減列200萬減列200萬 40案40案謝謝我們前召諸委員那已經同意修改為主決議 而且已經簽名 謝謝"},{"start":4684.813,"end":4698.3,"text":"41 41謝謝我們陳寧委員那已經同意修改為主決議修正文字那也取得簽名42 42黃修光委員謝謝黃修光委員已經同意簽名的改成凍結100萬年43案 43還在溝通當中謝謝我們這個陳委員"},{"start":4708.522,"end":4737.655,"text":"要請你們說明一下喔謝謝因為我想我這三天來第一件就是希望我們母嬰能夠健康啦那所以呢我們從產檢的內容包括次數包括項目超音波也好這個GDM也好那像貧血也好都提供相關的檢查就希望能夠保障母嬰的一個友善跟安全那另外對於山地離島偏鄉一些高風險的族群這個部分"},{"start":4738.115,"end":4757.641,"text":"那我們有一個做很急的高風險22縣市都在推動那我們大概從推動這5年來目前大概每年有113年為例大概我們大概已經接觸到9000多人那受案的大概有8000多人那對於他的不可能或者是生理上的一些弱勢也包括社會風險因素"},{"start":4759.862,"end":4783.619,"text":"願意做事但是國務院告訴我們說你那個地區某些地區那個高風雨它的尤其像台東它的職業人數是專業人數是不足的婦產科醫師人不足婦理人員短缺那這個情況下你們怎麼樣來處理我想我們這個計畫是透過縣市那也跟各個公衛協會包括我們住產公衛退休的一些人或者在職業的都來參加我們這樣一個這個訪視那從華映到"},{"start":4788.783,"end":4811.439,"text":"產後六個月我們都是他參與度偏低啊因為事實就是這樣啊所以怎麼改變就是說你要怎麼在面對這樣的因為我想這個量能到底多少我們會跟縣市來討論那我們一定讓這樣的需要服務的民眾能夠得到相關的服務我們盡量找到一個整個一個部落階的方式來做處理"},{"start":4814.166,"end":4830.375,"text":"那我就想署長你就在書面報告蠻強調因為我在這個說明因為這個部分台東縣那個只有16個婦產科而且12個集中在台東市嘛台東市整個那麼大那其他人怎麼照顧對不對不能照顧已經沒有資源地區我們要特別照顧人力的問題我知道"},{"start":4831.896,"end":4847.082,"text":"來去運用 說大家有責任去支援這個都國建署可以好好跟大家說明一下謝謝委員 那就麻煩委員那是不是免凍解改組決議好不好 那修正文字我們大概寫報告給委員 好好那我等你報告喔 謝謝喔事實上"},{"start":4852.13,"end":4876.467,"text":"改組決議 44案謝謝我們蘇昭維那已經同意改為組決議修正文字那已經簽名 謝謝45案謝謝我們陳建威委員那已經同意改為組決議跟修正文字也已經簽名46案是口腔師那這個部分也謝謝陳映委員已經同意改組決議也已經簽名"},{"start":4880.372,"end":4895.762,"text":"47案47案就是召委所提的有關這個關心12歲兒童的取恥的指數高於國際那之前有到這個委辦這邊溝通那委辦這邊已經有同意口頭同意要改組決只是召委還沒有幫我們簽名好"},{"start":4900.376,"end":4925.883,"text":"可以48案 協調48案 劉委員還沒有到場事先保留49 先保留因為李委員等一下會再處理 再說明嘛對對對 所以先保留好 謝謝50案保留 51案謝謝我們陳立委員陳立委員已經同意修改為主決議並修正文字那已經取得簽名"},{"start":4927.133,"end":4952.222,"text":"五十二案 五十二案謝謝我們黃秀安委員那已經簽名改為凍結一百萬元凍結一百萬五十三案 五十三案那謝謝我們蘇昭偉那已經同意改為主決議並修正文字那也謝謝昭偉已經簽名五十四案 五十四案謝謝我們陳年委員已經修改為主決議那修正文字那已經取得簽名"},{"start":4953.669,"end":4959.174,"text":"55萬,55萬謝謝我們邱正天委員,那已經同意修改為組結議,那修正文字也請人簽名要不要講話沒有,我同意,就同意改組結議同意改組結議,沒有不要表沒有,下一個我再來,這個沒有"},{"start":4973.137,"end":4992.165,"text":"同意了喔五十七案陳昭志委員謝謝我們陳昭志委員那跟委員溝通以後委員已經同意修改為主決議修正文字那已經取得簽名好五十七案五十七案謝謝我們陳寧委員那陳寧委員已經簽名檢列五百萬年"},{"start":4993.917,"end":5022.335,"text":"檢列五百萬是好也取得簽名了五十八案呃謝謝陳金輝委員那委員已經簽名同意改動結一百萬元提交書面報告對呃書面報告我想補充一下因為這是許多人陳情啊在這個疫苗施打以後可能有一些附中等等那昨天有問副署長副署長說他們會請一些法律的專業人士來跟疫苗審查委員會的委員"},{"start":5023.315,"end":5036.966,"text":"上課或是座談是希望可以把它稍微放寬因為是一個慰問的慰問的性質是了解那可以在這個報告裡面附上這個進度嗎可以可以謝謝謝謝署長"},{"start":5042.853,"end":5047.535,"text":"來5959謝謝陳情惠委員那我也已經簽名那同意改簡列10萬元好簡列10萬60萬謝謝陳情惠委員那我也已經簽名同意改組決議好組決議"},{"start":5060.69,"end":5086.047,"text":"61謝謝邱政卿委員委員已經簽名同意改組決議這個原則上同意啦那我還是希望我們署裡面對於這個帶狀皰疹的補助因為現在台灣現在四個縣市都有在做因為這個他的罹患的機率是32%所以我覺得這也是非常嚴重的所以如果可以的話請部裡面這邊再斟酌一下"},{"start":5089.209,"end":5099.237,"text":"是好那61案就改組決議是62案謝謝陳慶輝委員我已經簽名同意改組決議好組決議63案謝謝陳慶輝委員我已經簽名同意改凍結100萬元提交書面報告凍結100萬"},{"start":5118.277,"end":5136.542,"text":"六十四案謝謝邱政軍委員委員已經簽名同意改組決議你剛剛說炮子疫苗律師要求什麼不用錢六十歲以上六十五歲以上都不用錢要多少錢要花多少錢"},{"start":5138.132,"end":5147.271,"text":"那個很貴啦他是65歲以上中低收入我們如果是中低收入的話可能要8億左右"},{"start":5149.468,"end":5177.391,"text":"那打一劑還打兩劑啊目前其實今年開始只有兩劑的一劑不再進來了喔對所以那個大概要因為我打一劑的啊自己智慧的啊我以前我也有打過對對對呃三四千塊啦一...啊沒有沒有五千幾了應該大概五六千塊一劑的大概五六千塊一劑的那是有效果嗎蛤有效果嗎呃那個一劑的比較沒有效果"},{"start":5178.482,"end":5191.092,"text":"因為他後來後來的那個第二兩劑的那個比較好保護力會比較長一劑都可以撐多久頂多十年啦十年那十年後再打這個兩劑的這樣能活到十年的話對好"},{"start":5206.532,"end":5224.939,"text":"65歲全部都免費的話是不得了了我們只有算中低收入或低收入的話大概要8億左右好 65萬謝謝陳金威委員我們委員已經同意改組決議已經簽字了並修正文字好 組決議 66萬"},{"start":5231.513,"end":5234.857,"text":"66萬陳靜惠委員的提案,也謝謝委員已經同意改組決議,謝謝"},{"start":5247.233,"end":5263.778,"text":"好我們49萬黎業勤委員讓他表達來好在我第一次進來總職群的時候我就講說那個18對我們的死因回溯只做到6歲以下可是自殺死亡率事實上是"},{"start":5264.258,"end":5289.753,"text":"高的還有我們的交通這一塊所以我們希望加上2022年本來第二次兒童兒權公約國際委員審查就說鑑於兒少的死亡率高死亡率是不是應該要單一的建立單一且健全的死因回溯的分析機制可是始終那一次在總諮詢的時候本來就有答應的可是怎麼到現在都還沒適合做因為已經又過了快將近"},{"start":5291.394,"end":5318.166,"text":"大概八九個月了所以我們現在目前只針對六歲以下來實施然後沒有辦法全面推動尤其交通跟自殺事實上就是落入在少年這個階段所以加上目前各縣市的做法就沒有相關辦法跟實施要點就各縣市各自做各自的然後中央希望能夠去訂定要點還有標準化的作業程序所以這樣子才能讓有辦法讓"},{"start":5319.446,"end":5343.971,"text":"各縣市政府做的做法才能夠一致而且本來所有的死亡只要知道原因就可以下降而且下降的效果事實上非常的好非常高我不知道就是說在掃紙花的當今為什麼不可以加快速度去做能夠去做這個回應否則的話去年就已經沒辦法升到我們"},{"start":5344.751,"end":5359.652,"text":"跟前年一樣了那我們的死亡數又這麼高由於事故傷害1到14歲的高那個甚至15歲到24歲又是變成事實上是自殺的所以比較期待是要這樣做"},{"start":5362.008,"end":5381.259,"text":"謝謝委員的關心 委員一直希望我們的CDR能夠提高到18歲因為現在兒少法其實提到的就是6歲以下目前來講其實6歲以下這些小孩子他沒有辦法自我表達所以有很多的死因是不清楚所以我們才會去做兒童死因回顧的一個後續的衝"},{"start":5383.38,"end":5411.315,"text":"等於是事後以後再去推估的然後找出原因可以避免然後再有一些方法跟介入來做防護那六歲以上其實到十八歲那大部分就任委員所說的大部分都是交通事故那有一些就是自殺所以他原因就非常的清楚那我們有心理健康事的事到防治中心那也有交通部的主管的前者那未來如果要提到十八歲整體而言的話那我想在俄哨法修法的時候是會有一張"},{"start":5411.975,"end":5425.595,"text":"我覺得等修法沒有法源因為地方政委都反對很多東西政策也不見得一定有法源可是你今天你是國建署鎮於我們兒少的身心健康不應該去做這樣的一個考慮嗎"},{"start":5427.297,"end":5452.812,"text":"因為今天我們就孩子已經生的夠少了然後又不去做積極的作為那也不是說全部都要做只有交通跟自殺這兩塊對看起來原因很明確可是很大廈交通那到底是機車汽車還是站在前面還是坐後邊還是什麼樣狀態那一樣的自殺是什麼原因是感情家庭因素還是什麼都可以透過死因回溯那尤其是像英國他們做的"},{"start":5453.712,"end":5471.619,"text":"本來在三千多的死亡案例裡面可以下降到兩千七三千五到兩千七那降幅事實上非常的高所以就期待你們要能夠去做我們在跟內政部還有這個心理健康是一起來討論看如何我們社交一起討論"},{"start":5474.151,"end":5502.97,"text":"是不是動得太少 所以以致你們覺得沒有什麼特別不是啊 我現在就期待是說真的事實上是他能夠改變這個還要地方來量能的執行 那目前大家地方都反正 我們也開過委員的建議我們也找地方來開過會請你們交報告就先 維持原因就動50萬好 謝謝委員委員同意我們修改那個科目嘛 把那個衛生保健工的管考畫的那個刪掉改成動在上面會像毛毛大象一點好"},{"start":5504.25,"end":5528.677,"text":"就維持原來的維持原來的提案謝謝所以是動50萬簽名署長我請教這時候在講那個什麼青少年變性那個人家說很不合理,整個很不合理,到底是在說什麼我不是非常清楚,這個劉委員,劉市長比較清楚劉市長講清楚一下劉市長比較清楚"},{"start":5532.467,"end":5548.707,"text":"我要講的是說這是第一件事情是107年的時候針對雙性人雙性人那雙性人這邊的話其實舊兒科的病人其實他如果有一些存在身體很久他搞不好會有那個會有cancer的一個"},{"start":5549.387,"end":5576.922,"text":"所以是针对双性人而不是针对未成年的这一块因为成年之后他青春期的荷尔蒙变化很可能会造成那个存在身体的那个生殖组织可能会有癌变的这个情形所以107年的时候讨论是针对双性人的手术所以才会用年龄来做一些区分有一些建议可是这很重要的还是必须要需要decision making之后才能够做"},{"start":5577.802,"end":5598.941,"text":"临床有需要然后家属跟病人其实也都知道所以才会在那个有不同年龄层的一个分别要去做处理这是那时候是针对双性的更不不是说所谓的全面的未成年人的这一块这是第一件事然后那随着就是我们大家观念的进步包括同婚都开放了所以"},{"start":5599.381,"end":5625.456,"text":"在那個監察院也好然後性別委員也好就是說那多元的接納的這件事情我們是不是應該要醫護人員這一塊應該要有一些遵循對LGBTQ這一段所以我們才會在去年年底的時候經過一年的研議我們其實兩年前有先出一個漫畫先讓大家知道就是讓PGY知道是說有這樣子的一個"},{"start":5626.457,"end":5642.886,"text":"存在然後我們怎麼樣來做一個相關的一個照顧其實老師講就是一個全人照顧以人為中心的一個醫療服務然後那好過一年之後那個文化出來了大家好像接受度也還OK所以就裡面的"},{"start":5643.746,"end":5663.965,"text":"部分我們就委請那個泌尿科醫師北榮的黃主任這邊是說來統籌然後才產出了這個指引其實這個指引從頭到尾就是在做整體的照顧要去注意什麼事情然後那一定會把107年我們講的未成年雙性能的這一段寫進去所以整個邏輯是這樣以上簡短補充"},{"start":5666.827,"end":5691.378,"text":"不好意思我想發問一下你的新的指引你並沒有明確的講到是只有雙性人可以接受評估還有手術你的意思是說假使他有一些認同的障礙以至於精神方面等等然後你說要多方醫療團隊但是好像也沒有寫到這些醫療團隊比如說某一個層級以上的"},{"start":5691.818,"end":5709.325,"text":"然後有哪幾個哪幾個科別共同去做share decision那個指引裡面其實是還是針對一般醫護人員如果碰到的時候要特別注意的事情這個大家都知道因為友善門診已經推動非常多年了"},{"start":5709.765,"end":5725.464,"text":"因此我們本來就都有去落實友善門診現在這個很多人打電話進來是在問這個性別確認手術是不是你們的意思就是開放讓12到18歲因為你的意思沒有我們沒有開放"},{"start":5728.826,"end":5750.187,"text":"對媒體下標下錯了我覺得你上面寫說什麼多個醫療團隊去做諮商然後確認等等啊就那個其實就是把我們之前的友善性別門診這一塊去做一個落實讓一般的大概都知道我講的是一般的醫護人員因為還是會轉接到這個特別的門診來做處理嗎"},{"start":5751.869,"end":5778.382,"text":"然後可是如果我們一般醫護人員都不清楚的時候然後那其實對於就是說只有專門的人才知道這樣子其實還是會造成落差對這些族群如果要尋求就醫的時候其實還是一個障礙可是我覺得那指引好像寫得不太清楚不然你就寫說只能用藥物只能用荷爾蒙只能就是非侵入性的方式等等對啊不行"},{"start":5783.242,"end":5792.227,"text":"媒體所有的標題都變成是就是那個衛福部去年12月公佈LGBT民眾醫療照護參考執意其中"},{"start":5795.43,"end":5810.232,"text":"進一步開放未成年的12至18歲兒少有適應困難者經專業團隊評估後可進行變性手術所以其實媒體的標都是把你這個指引特別抓出來說未成年人經評估後"},{"start":5811.153,"end":5825.299,"text":"可以進行變性手術其實是這個才會導致就是很多人的疑惑出來到底可以或不可以媒體是說可以啊按照你的指引就是未成年人可進行變性手術未成年的雙性人"},{"start":5826.533,"end":5847.203,"text":"我們要特別講是媒體下標對這部分我們會覺得是說也謝謝委員跟我們這個機會今天在這邊來做一個澄清所以只有未成年的雙性那如果是未成年的LGBTQ group可以做藥物嗎基本上面就需要專業評估"},{"start":5849.44,"end":5873.389,"text":"我覺得你們的指引好像要把它寫得更清楚才行指引基本上面是第一步啦然後有一些更多的一些專業的這邊我覺得我們其實是可以再跟專家這邊再做一些談判我想這個我們有在媒體上說明這個改變其實是完全遵照專家的一個建議符合國際潮流讓我們台灣的醫護人員"},{"start":5875.902,"end":5878.601,"text":"多了解到必須要做這種友善的一個"},{"start":5879.927,"end":5905.568,"text":"對待這樣子啦,這是第一個精神啦,我覺得這個一定要先強調第二個就是說,如果那些指引齁,不要用我們醫學聽,民眾聽不懂什麼可能我們去把他再處理一下,要講清楚要把擔心的,民之所欲、民之所擔心的,就是我們要去做的嘛就是把那個"},{"start":5906.969,"end":5922.036,"text":"我們不可以就不可以,我們要如何政府如何嚴格沒有做好方向下標的是我們自己留文字給人家下標所以這個部分我們回去趕快再宣布市長你剛才說了解說了,待會看聽有的看幾個我講過了你剛才說了王一鳴有的也聽不到"},{"start":5930.029,"end":5930.69,"text":"你剛才說他也聽不懂我聽有但是跟你圍的流程圖就不一樣"},{"start":5937.639,"end":5943.401,"text":"我們現在辦公室都接到這個無厘頭的電話你有一個Q&A或是簡單的讓我們的助理可以回答不可能我接到的都電話所以讓他們可以簡單的回答香港、澳洲變性的43%是反悔"},{"start":5963.625,"end":5966.909,"text":"到20歲、23歲就反悔我看報道也錯過了所以要講很簡單簡而易懂啦不然你講幾句我也不聽好"},{"start":5976.557,"end":5990.875,"text":"我們來處理實際上我是這樣建議啦未成年大家一定都基於保護的心態不建議手術但是您講的是合理因為他有致癌的風險你應該把這一類的人特別標出來對因為他"},{"start":5993.518,"end":6014.134,"text":"對就同時擁有雙性的器官等等因為有自來風險所以他必須接受手術那另外如果是性別認同的問題你應該另外寫你說他們到底可不可以藥物好多方評估多方評估也要某一個層級以上的某幾顆多方評估可以使用藥物來給他們"},{"start":6017.436,"end":6033.702,"text":"這樣才對吧然後要明確寫說禁止非雙性人做性別確認手術謝謝大家的指教因為我們再重申一次其實老師講並不是開放未成年的"},{"start":6034.182,"end":6056.781,"text":"我覺得這一段謝謝委員給我們時間然後那對於是說文字這邊不清楚的地方我們會再找團隊這邊一起來想一下因為那時候在出這個指引的時候我們針對的是一般的醫護人員然後沒有想到是說一般民眾在看這個的時候會造成誤解 以上 謝謝好 越簡單越好你現在這麼專業沒人看得到好 67案"},{"start":6062.957,"end":6080.875,"text":"六十七案陳英委員提案也謝謝陳英委員已經同意並簽名改為主決議六十八案六十八案邱振均委員提案謝謝委員已經同意改為主決議六十九案六十九案也謝謝陳金輝委員已經同意改為主決議並且已經簽名"},{"start":6082.31,"end":6090.541,"text":"六九改組決議七十案七十案 邱正清委員提案謝謝邱委員已經同意並改為簽名並改為組決議七十一案"},{"start":6101.608,"end":6129.751,"text":"所以我們跟委員報告一下那個委員對於提案的委員提案內容是希望我們對於整個有關業務宣導費的部分能夠做更清楚的說明而且能夠尊嚴政府的預算那我們在這個在這個這個向下我們編列的其實是包括了比較幾乎是總體社會福利相關的一些宣導跟包括宣導跟那個宣導的媒材的製作的費用"},{"start":6130.311,"end":6150.287,"text":"那有社會救助法要擴大照顧對象的那包括親民暴力防治、性暴力防治等等以及對於高齡的友善、高齡友善以及高齡自主相關的一些宣導教材那還有就是有關在於社福中心辦理收出養兒少監護、成年監護等等"},{"start":6152.749,"end":6171.39,"text":"這些媒材的製作以及CRPD的意識的CRPD的意識而造權力意識的推廣等等它是一個比較全面的我們大概集中的都把它編列在一起那這個部分的話也跟我們報告一下這個大概都是對於民眾的一些權力意識"},{"start":6172.171,"end":6192.607,"text":"一些一些基本的宣導那也希望委員可以能夠可以支持我們是不是能夠不要再做不需要做刪減能夠讓我們能夠可以用組決議的方式那我們來提相關的宣導的內容做一個更進一步的書院報告來跟委員來做說明謝謝"},{"start":6197.467,"end":6219.931,"text":"我這個理由寫得很清楚嘛齁你這樣說我還是不太清楚因為你們原本是媒體的政策及業務的宣導會嘛是你們把它刪掉然後去增加推展會是從三年度的530嘛齁是不是增加到219增加到2900萬對啊嘿嘿"},{"start":6225.869,"end":6251.861,"text":"那怎麼會這麼變增加的部分那跟委員報告其實有一部分是也是搭配的像CRPD那個生權公約的部分那因為有搭配到這今年和明年開始要進入國家報告的製作以及國際委員的審查的部分所以確實像在生權公約的部分以及針對那個未成年懷孕收出養的部分那因為"},{"start":6252.721,"end":6272.351,"text":"在這個部分有一個比較大的制度改變所以這個部分確實是他在編列費用上有比去年度有提高一些那其他的話其實是把以往有一些宣導的項目去整合起來合併在一起該提高就要提高這個我不會去有意見的不過你把它全部都混在一塊這樣好嗎"},{"start":6275.615,"end":6293.464,"text":"我們還是有把這個細目有準備出一份比較細的一些資料那是不是可以容我們把這一個比較詳細的資料提供給委員這邊來做進一步的說明好 主席我這案就先保留好不好先保留 剛把那個提供給我好 謝謝"},{"start":6294.504,"end":6309.474,"text":"好71案先保留再跟劉友園溝通72案好72案謝謝陳清輝委員同意並73案改動50萬元也取得委員的同意所以我這邊想發問一下"},{"start":6310.074,"end":6331.999,"text":"因為我看了一下去年我們在這邊質詢問過的問題他說去年8月有一位性影像處理中心的主任劉主任他說每天大概有二三十件案件通報就是至少會有二三十位被害人發現自己的影像外流然後呢每一位再會給差不多五六十個"},{"start":6333.7,"end":6344.791,"text":"傳遞的這個網址啊所以這個量是蠻龐大的因此會覺得這類的受害者其實越來越多但為什麼我們在預算書裡面是看到編列的預算是縮編的狀況"},{"start":6347.754,"end":6371.786,"text":"是謝謝委員因為113年去年我們有一個系統就是處理這個案件從申訴到整個處理這個系統的一個建立所以那個費用將近800萬左右所以我們把那個系統只要建立一次就可以所以這個系統建立好對是好謝謝是那我就依照剛說的併到73案"},{"start":6376.687,"end":6395.115,"text":"那73案陳昭志委員也是動50萬那謝謝陳委員非常關心老人受暴的議題那在部裡頭也很重視所以我們跟長照還有社福整個體系有串聯所以這個部分謝謝委員同意我們凍結50萬也謝謝委員同意簽名73案我們沒有還沒有簽嗎沒有73案我們還沒有簽73案"},{"start":6410.198,"end":6423.943,"text":"現在就是說老人那個施暴的部分這個一直在增加嘛而且大部分就是家人嘛那在國外的那個統計就是家庭照顧的真的很辛苦他們大概65有憂鬱症的傾向大概20有憂鬱症嘛89%有慢性這個精神病嘛"},{"start":6429.065,"end":6451.633,"text":"所以這個照顧者他們就是來到往往就基於愛會很疲憊了所以許多人在事發之後也很後悔那這個部分我也有質詢但是我質詢的時候好像貴屬都無感所以我希望你們能夠有一些比較積極介入的措施啦因為高齡化這個現象只會增加嘛長照的悲劇只會增加嘛而且來自親人也是很痛的事情嘛"},{"start":6452.273,"end":6473.578,"text":"做了很後悔但是當下他又沒有辦法承受啊我不知道社家屬你們要怎麼積極來做這件事情啊是我們目前把這個高負荷照顧的這個指標很清楚的給第一線包括長照人員的居服還有我們的縣市的社福中心的社工以及醫院裡頭要出去出院"},{"start":6474.278,"end":6477.101,"text":"前的一些準備都有這個高負荷照顧的一個指標他們可以用那個指標來做轉介所以我們現在跟長照以及社福還有醫院的部分整個串起來所以提高這個敏感度也就是高其實官方大部分在講方法"},{"start":6490.834,"end":6519.022,"text":"其實我們主動包括劉委員剛剛他強調的很多東西你要去推動但是你推廣業務你的結果是什麼效果是什麼多少人點閱多少人了解那我要的也是這個部分你再告訴我說你方法要怎麼做那我不知道你方法有效沒效他每年數字就在提高啊所以我在職業就是告訴你看你的數字就一直提高你很努力做但是沒有效果沒有效不是但是你就要想辦法去做更好看怎麼改變嘛這人做事情就是這樣做所以這個部分我並沒有"},{"start":6519.742,"end":6533.088,"text":"達成決議啊我本來是還是凍結希望你們提出書面報告後凍五十萬是凍五十萬嗎是改凍五十萬是我這邊寫兩百萬勒你都中背影勒有有改凍五十萬是那你你多久勒兩個月內"},{"start":6542.27,"end":6542.53,"text":"出面報告兩個月內"},{"start":6572.95,"end":6595.1,"text":"所以是不是每件事大家都說衛福部嘛邱部長衛福部從生到死從早到晚都你管的我們現在每件事都是你最大衛福部管太多很多嘛所以人民沒有衛福部整個秩序會大亂所以我們是希望說你們做的東西不要再續映故事不是說我有提這個計劃案我們要知道那個結果"},{"start":6596.773,"end":6617.174,"text":"結果不好你就要改變啊是沒有問題而且我們每三個月都會做一次檢討我們沒有看到啊我諮詢後都沒有看到那我會把這個整個資料做一個整理再提供給委員提供也未還文會來做做五十萬到兩百萬差很大耶是你說我不知道說要五十萬耶現在你在說耶"},{"start":6619.347,"end":6623.111,"text":"我們主題的不太一樣各自動50但是請你兩個月內要把這個報告裡面有包括成效"},{"start":6637.901,"end":6658.759,"text":"成效的部分,所以你預估的成效,將來我們可以繼續比對啊你一定要研究計畫,你們發給別人研究計畫,也是這樣要求的啊都是這樣要求的,好嗎?好,署長,就麻煩你了謝謝,謝謝好,那陳委員,你意見嗎?七十二,七十二要動一百五十,五十,好這五十不合併啦"},{"start":6660.06,"end":6678.635,"text":"不合併好 72案動50 73案動50好 7474是昭緯提的案件那我們遵照辦理就動十分之一但是我們在計畫名稱要修正建議修正為暴力防治三級預防計畫好 謝謝75案這個我有意見什麼昭緯動了你們就遵照辦理"},{"start":6687.342,"end":6689.965,"text":"我們動人你們就照著這麼一堆人來跟我們討論等一下我們動人也要遵照辦理謝謝"},{"start":6700.083,"end":6718.363,"text":"好 我說明一下這個75案我提的主要是我看到這個長照基金我們114年我們的整個支出就是預算數是758億但是我們的預算數是這樣但是用途預算數已經高達"},{"start":6720.575,"end":6748.351,"text":"879億是不是是所以其實短處已經他已經沒有平衡了就是說你的支出大於你現在編列的預算超過120億那所以在這樣的一個情況底下已經有學者示警就是說我們的長照基金未來的這個支出不斷的增加但是顯然你這個基金的來源並沒有一個新的來源所以如果再這樣發展下去的話我們長照基金恐怕三年內"},{"start":6749.318,"end":6773.855,"text":"就會消耗殆盡就是這個基金大概就用完了那這個部分我覺得衛福部應該要提早未雨綢繆就是看到這樣的情況然後要去增加你的這個基金的來源那之前你們有在提到說要稅收保險雙制度我不曉得這只是隨口說說還是未來要朝向這樣的規劃如果這樣跟保險"},{"start":6778.827,"end":6794.32,"text":"雙軌制度他們曾經有這樣子講那這個是不是你未來的還是未來還繼續走稅收那如果稅收顯然現在的稅收不夠用特別是今年已經變成是超高齡的社會我們這個老年人口數已經正式突破20%那所以這個部分你們應該要提早來做"},{"start":6798.303,"end":6804.347,"text":"那在這樣的情況底下你們今年的媒體編的錢跟業務宣導的錢還比112年更高你112年的決算只有4517萬4710元但114年你編列的高達6550萬所以我提這個案子是在幫你們省錢就是說已經基金不太夠使用了但是你的媒體的宣導你們還持續往上加往上編列"},{"start":6827.72,"end":6849.972,"text":"那这个部分我认为你们应该要来检讨而且钱就应该要用在刀口上事实上有一些没一起宣导如果是你们评估那个成效根本没有不是说112年编列然后你114年照样编照样做应该去检讨那个实质的成效在哪里所以我才提出这样的一个这个煽动案好"},{"start":6853.22,"end":6860.73,"text":"好謝謝謝謝王委員這邊的一個提醒跟提案那我先說明一下王委員其實已經這個案剛剛有同意我們明語簡略然後改動節300萬然後科目自行調整也已經簽名"},{"start":6869.142,"end":6883.246,"text":"那我想針對剛剛王委員的關注的一些面向這邊也簡單說明一下那其實目前我們到去年年底就是113年年底基金累積盈餘現在有達到1500萬大概有超過1500萬"},{"start":6888.007,"end":6905.747,"text":"一千五百萬一千五百億一千五百億累計也達到一千五百億就是一一三年底那主要這個收入的部分是以房地合一稅佔大概六成多是最大宗"},{"start":6907.549,"end":6928.079,"text":"我們目前就是雖然就是說每年大概因為服務人數的成長跟服務量能的提升所以導致我們確實在編列的時候會按照預估財政部給我們的預估的收入來臨去編制出可是每年我們因應民眾實際的需求所以都有每年會啟動讓地方政府可以請增"},{"start":6929.099,"end":6929.279,"text":"所以剛剛呃呃呃呃呃呃呃呃"},{"start":6945.429,"end":6974.097,"text":"三年刚刚特别提到说累计到去年年底整个基金的一个收入盈余是已经超过了1500亿那我想这个部分我们其实也是随时都在检讨相关的这个财政的一个财务的来源那我们跟财政部这边都有一些定期做一些相关的讨论那针对就是说可能过往在媒体有报道这个刚刚提到的这个什么裁员"},{"start":6974.637,"end":6976.838,"text":"那這件事情就是不管是什麼樣的財務的來源都會列為我們的評估的項目之一那這邊就是也會朝這個方向來因應面對到越來越高的一個人口群的一個需求那我們在這邊也特別強調就是說預算編列我們基本上一定會預留"},{"start":6998.887,"end":7022.647,"text":"要按照收入來源來編那支出我們基本上就是以民眾的需求有需要我們就支應朝向這樣的一個態度來面對長照的一個供應以上做這樣的一個說明所以你的意思是說你們長照基金現在有累積於有一千五百多億那你現在一年不足的一百多億嗎所以還可以撐個十年有112年底"},{"start":7025.219,"end":7049.641,"text":"以100 不能用現在估啦 我剛剛已經講過了齁 邁向超高齡社會很快啦 我覺得很快你的支出會達到千億規模一定是的 就是說現在還要長照3.0那其實大家的需求 你可以看到其實是越來越多有些其實根本沒有到位 之前我遇到一些機構喔他就跟我說 目前政府所有長照的政策對於機構是零補助"},{"start":7051.923,"end":7052.243,"text":"請問老的有沒有"},{"start":7070.481,"end":7087.867,"text":"對就是其實有一大塊都還在話外之地就是說都沒有在政府照顧的範圍所以我只能說其實因應這個超高齡的社會我是提醒衛福部應該要提早來因應準備你現在看到的預算不是只有這樣而已實質上的需求坦白講你們還有很多"},{"start":7089.387,"end":7113.299,"text":"根本沒有去照顧到你說機構完全不需要照顧嗎我覺得這樣好像也是沒有道理事實上機構他也負擔了很多中正一些一些需求的民眾但是政府現在的量能坦白講他只在這個家庭跟社區他注入了非常多的動能但是到機構的部分他是完全讓機構自己去自負盈虧自己去負責政府"},{"start":7113.706,"end":7124.838,"text":"去給他們的力量很少所以前一陣子我才遇到這一些機構的負責人他們跟我反映說為什麼政府的政策就是對我們機構其實是完全都沒在照顧就是都沒有啊也沒有什麼相關計畫是可以申請補助都沒有就是讓我們自己來運作"},{"start":7131.385,"end":7147.269,"text":"那這個其實就是我們整體在長照的政策當中我覺得還是有所偏頗當然我知道過去我們是想要強調居家式社區式的照顧這個沒有問題但是實際面事實上也有很多的家屬他就是不得已他還是他的長輩就是進到了機構"},{"start":7149.87,"end":7168.168,"text":"但是針對這一類型現在雖然有一些是針對家長有補助但是對於機構怎麼提升他的品質他所聘請的人員設備等等到目前為止是零市長現在代理機構安養的總共有9萬多人那這9萬多人不是一個月有補助有一年就是12萬"},{"start":7170.25,"end":7195.691,"text":"他没有补助机构任何去提高他们的设备人员各方面他们是说他们都没有了跟委员补充报告对于这个一千多家的机构我们采取这种品质提升的卓越计划从108年就是已经有四年只要他达成我们的这个品质提升的指标他就可以拿奖励金我们透过奖励的方式让这些机构经营者愿意"},{"start":7196.371,"end":7219.998,"text":"服務的方向導向符合他按照各個指標不同的金額那最多一年也可以拿到一兩百萬那所以現在有新的四年的獎勵計劃也是鼓勵針對他願意好好的友善照顧他的人力薪資給到三萬多元以上 王玉明有人提供的是不是要思考做長照保險"},{"start":7221.691,"end":7234.534,"text":"這是是不是要輸課啦我另外一個想法是長照保險要做就叫健保署做健保署很厲害啊現在5.17%的匯率差不多9000多億9000多億除起來1%就1600億左右"},{"start":7245.516,"end":7274.526,"text":"那如果說增加到增加一點0.5 0.8或者是到6%那這個長照基金就一年有1000多億的規模那電子健保局的所有所有的data都是完善的都是而且監控的非常非常非常非常非常非常非常好好 劉建國 請歡迎沒有 剛剛是聽翁委員講到長照部分其實"},{"start":7275.958,"end":7287.826,"text":"這個是一個善意提醒但是不會三年就經費消耗殆盡但是有一個問題我還是必須要提供給衛福跟長照事做參考"},{"start":7288.656,"end":7313.022,"text":"這甚至牽動整個衛務部如果我們的整個經費一年度一年度的增加那是對值的部分提高而不是對量的部分提高我覺得我支持對值提高而已是OK但是對量所謂的量就是使用長照的對象人數越來越多"},{"start":7314.81,"end":7335.268,"text":"那這樣會不會就違背賴總統講的健康台灣而且是非常大的衝突跟矛盾那你的經費就會衝突王委員所講的他是估三年啦我待會會估久一點點而已啦我覺得這樣就整個叫做台灣就不能叫做健康台灣"},{"start":7336.343,"end":7349.488,"text":"如果多數的邁入到超高齡社會之後多數的我們的長輩全部百分之七十八十九十通通要用長照這個不叫做健康台灣叫做什麼叫做要用綠色綠色的台灣"},{"start":7351.457,"end":7378.769,"text":"長照的定義很清楚嘛長期身體心理質疑不能自理嘛你如果反作台語說的話 回去要用來生育啊不然要用購啊你出了私資了 你跑出去不知道怎麼回來你明天四點鐘要購那購了是 你是購到幾千萬的人一人私資全家是喪志啦所以我是 所以我一直要強調說你長照基金裡面 你除了再去增加你把值的 這樣的提高我覺得支持 一定支持"},{"start":7379.289,"end":7395.173,"text":"但是如果是對象對象的量一直在增加那代表我們前端一而再再而三的出問題所以我才會在總預算的時候總持預算的時候特別跟部長跟院長提醒嘛你們的預防走入長照的比例在你們長照基金是多少如果在這個地方沒有那就在國建署啊不然就在哪個單位啊你不能沒有啊"},{"start":7408.379,"end":7434.375,"text":"你不讓台灣的長輩人數比例越來越高見到超高齡就一定的比例見到長照系統裡面你比較多錢也不夠啊你做保險也不夠 他們不會說對不對那就是真的違背賴總統講的這個目標叫健康台灣嘛我們都希望我們的長輩可以健康在地的安老啊不是只有在地的老化而已啊更不是在地的長照服務化"},{"start":7437.996,"end":7449.95,"text":"這個要很清楚 跟委會說明清楚你們到底怎麼做預防走入長照很簡單預防走入長照台灣所有的人都應該要有這樣的一個處理的模式"},{"start":7454.722,"end":7469.978,"text":"非常謝謝局委委員真的是提出精闢的建議令我非常敬佩我想健康台灣的願景就是希望尤其在長照3.0就是"},{"start":7471.319,"end":7493.228,"text":"醫療跟長照的結合那希望能夠讓我們老人家盡量不要失能那這中間當然剛剛建國委員提的很多的健康賦能健康促進這個都是各部門都要去做的事情那我們有一個目標就是希望在2030年能夠把健康"},{"start":7494.028,"end":7521.468,"text":"移民能夠從現在可能平均移民有10%是不健康的降低到8%這也是跟幾位委員提的一樣的努力的方向所以未來長照大概長照因為這件事情是整體性的啦醫療部分啊什麼都要連結3.0其實就在做這種連結就這樣的一個連結那也達到"},{"start":7522.628,"end":7544.98,"text":"也是健康台灣的目標我們會去一直在努力當中而且我們在社區也一直在建立一個醫療結合醫療以人為中心以社區為基礎的結合醫療長照社福還有社安當然現在未來很多志工也都要進來像以前我們在雲林就推動65歲到75歲的來照顧75歲以上的"},{"start":7548.806,"end":7565.292,"text":"一個這樣的一個系統也謝謝建國委員在這相關的方面給我們這個計畫很多的支持那這些都是我們未來的一個目標就達到大家想要往這方面努力的一個變景 謝謝"},{"start":7569.328,"end":7592.506,"text":"我這邊口頭補充一下就是剛剛劉委員在總質詢其實一直關心的就是到底預防延緩失能的一個預算那個佔比佔整體那用長照基金投入這個預防延緩失能就是我們部裡面跨司署大家一起共同努力包括園民會也有拿到相關的文件站的一些相關都是促進延緩失能的這樣一個場域那目前113年是72.9億"},{"start":7598.331,"end":7599.953,"text":"72.9億那佔整體大概8.81整體基金的預算那今年編列是接近80億79.77億那佔整體是9.08這個事實上是有一直在提升"},{"start":7614.714,"end":7634.004,"text":"那不包括體育部運動部的體育署那邊其實也有全民運動的一些導入那我們剛剛講的這個部分是除了衛福部那還有園民會一起是用這個長照基金在做預防延緩失能的一個努力推動以上做這樣補充說明"},{"start":7636.365,"end":7651.292,"text":"好 主席再一句話就好延緩私人的經費的編制這個我沒有意見當然今年增加是最好的嘛但是一環走路長照不是只有單一項叫延緩私人而已啦"},{"start":7653.633,"end":7679.634,"text":"如果這樣就太淺了 不好意思就是說從長照1.0到2.0我們原本服務對象的母數就不一樣這個中間會減對不對基本上台灣朝向超高齡的時候他當然會有一定比例的成長那我們要Focus的對象我們是不是照理講原本可能預估他是假設是100個人"},{"start":7681.738,"end":7707.901,"text":"那因為我們的玉皇的走入長照的相關的政策搭配得以執行到有一定的效益那原有的100可能會剩下90個可能會剩下80個他根本就不需要走入長照根本不需要用到長照的任何一筆經費我想我要打造想要走的方向是這個樣子啦這樣才是有這樣的數據可以跟我們參考嗎不是你的預算說因為晚時冷"},{"start":7710.494,"end":7735.696,"text":"8%、9%、10%不是這樣啦跟委員在說明齁其實陳榮部長剛剛講的這真的是跨部會然後而且是全民自己本身要從小培養出運動習慣那這也是賴總統健康台灣一直倡議的要建立全民運動培養全民運動的習慣那現階段如果我們看整個失能率的調查"},{"start":7736.877,"end":7747.204,"text":"那其實是不是那麼樂觀因為失能率的調查做出來基本上是從人口普查的時候前10年做出來是12.6那後來109年的結果出來是變成是3.3"},{"start":7755.729,"end":7782.237,"text":"那我們覺得在超高齡社會因為平均壽命一直延長的狀態下其實這個失能率必然是往上要達到委員期待能夠往下降其實還有很長的一段路那真的必須每一個人有這樣的一個運動習慣那因為台灣真的沒有運動的風氣國人跟世界各國比較之下那這個部分是每一個人可能必須要"},{"start":7785.264,"end":7809.524,"text":"我不擔心你說了又說了會出事什麼會沒有運動風氣你可以說不...也不是運動就不會有運動人就不會這個講法有點這是一個比較高的一個處理的模式的看法不是只有單一長照式的角度去做思考好不好就這樣就好了謝謝"},{"start":7814.108,"end":7819.311,"text":"70萬就是凍結300萬科目自行調整76萬謝謝那76萬是陳昭州委員的那口頭辦公室是有同意合併78案共同凍結50萬然後科目自行調整沒有我們的就是在討論喔不是喔不是這樣的我沒有簽名我沒有簽喔是"},{"start":7834.98,"end":7861.378,"text":"因為這個案子我們提也是因為民眾陳情你現在現行機構沒有顧慮到這個機構的喘息的部分在收第七八級的這個需求者必須要需要比較多的資源跟耗材那你一律都是收2310元那導致很多機構他可能不願意收重症就是說七八級的需求者但是明明這些人是需求等級是比較高的那我在想說你手邊有沒有那個喘息服務"},{"start":7862.699,"end":7863.764,"text":"族群你有相關統計嗎族群"},{"start":7869.656,"end":7894.676,"text":"機構會使用24小時住宿機構的對象基本上都是比較屬於使用喘息服務的組織我現在手邊的數字2023年全台灣有60名照護者是符合申請條件的喘息服務但是申請人只有4萬23%連四分之一都不到這種執行率在其他預算案早就被砍掉了砍光光了那發生什麼事情"},{"start":7895.756,"end":7917.842,"text":"那你看剛剛大家都討論這麼多後來我看到第1777案也是王衛明委員也提也提到了嘉義縣的長照交通資源結據全縣才13輛康復巴士夠不夠啊那最近台視也有做一個那個熱線追蹤他這個這一集做得很清楚有些媒體好好做個專題我覺得你們也是要去了解所以我想要說針對這個你們怎麼樣讓機構願意投入這個喘息服務怎麼提高喘息部有許對於這個重"},{"start":7924.864,"end":7945.401,"text":"七到八級的這個你要趕快去處理啊因為那個執行率那麼低那你執行率如果再去根據等級來看搞不好七八級你們根本機構都不收啊你說獎勵結果他們沒有再說真正需求量沒有辦法去說真正需求最高等的那一群族群啊這樣就是沒有照顧到啊"},{"start":7946.889,"end":7967.469,"text":"所以我要照結果 結果是非常重要的那你有沒有統計數字還是關心整體的量從一到八級整體的量委員關心的相當數據我們會後可以提供給委員那你有嗎 你有現成的數字嗎現在手邊沒有那大家抱怨七到八級的那個整個收費都是一樣那當然就又造成很多人講什麼排擠那當然要照顧相對 相對輕度的"},{"start":7971.953,"end":7977.195,"text":"也跟委員說明以我們目前的給支付裡面針對機構的喘息服務GA05的這一支是一天是2310元如果乘以30天的話整個一個月一個月是69300元那以我們24小時住宿機構目前地方政府核定的收費標準多人房大概是35000"},{"start":7998.923,"end":8022.99,"text":"至少你没有看到我的重点你投资多少但是最需要的人这些人最需要帮助的时候如果你没有去特别关注这群人我们现在23%的使用率是怎么来的到底谁没用应该这么说我们住宿型机构目前的住民分析七八级的占超过八成所以多数都是七八级的"},{"start":8023.871,"end":8039.011,"text":"那委员关心到二十几趴说使用喘息中重度使用喘息因为中重度也会使用全台湾的六十万需要者只有十四万申请应该说我们这边的喘息服务使用最多的是居家喘"},{"start":8039.952,"end":8045.296,"text":"居家喘息服务使用量是最多那住宿型机构的喘息服务"},{"start":8070.292,"end":8096.438,"text":"那你就是要幫助需求量需求最高等的這些這群人啊所以這個部分你們要講清楚啊你要怎麼讓機構願意投入喘息服務啊那個那個比例我們可以看怎麼提高這個利用率喘息服務的利用率其實以現在一天支付2310元已經非常高了剛剛我算出來就一個月竟然可以達到九萬六萬九千三百元跟現在的這個機構"},{"start":8098.259,"end":8105.24,"text":"收的住民的費用其實是已經是double了是三萬五多人房的話"},{"start":8106.494,"end":8129.657,"text":"所以這個費用完全就單人房你是假設他每天都住然後你有假設說所有不同級的人都一樣的費用你覺得你當中這樣設計合理嗎基本上如果今天不是那麼重的個案他不會選擇用機構船他會選擇用居家船所以我們現在使用居家船的比例是最高的居家船席"},{"start":8130.377,"end":8148.407,"text":"我今天的重點是告訴你民眾陳情的是C8級的需求者那一旦費用調高之後其實對民眾的部分負擔也是會加重所以目前就我們整個成本算過你還是堅持都不分就對了都不分等級就對了就是都不分等級的現階段喘息的額度沒有分等級"},{"start":8152.549,"end":8168.176,"text":"那他基本上就是對民眾的選擇他願意使用居家船就用居家船同樣這一包的額度跟機構會不想收啊因為他們需要提供更他們的成本更高照顧成本更高啊這重點在這個地方啊我們看到的現象不是這樣因為"},{"start":8170.037,"end":8192.046,"text":"機構是希望在2310再跟民眾再去收自費的項目那這個部分是不允許的因為2310已經包括了所有的費用應該支出的部分就剛剛講了如果這樣子我覺得你還是沒有針對我這次的重點反正這個部分你大概知道你聽得懂我在強調的是什麼你要把書面包到血兒頭我還是還是一樣啊500萬因為你要發下去當然這個基金的部分我們對啊"},{"start":8199.915,"end":8206.006,"text":"因為你一直在講說我們都一律照顧我們都有這樣做的你的重點就跟我今天的重點不一樣"},{"start":8207.233,"end":8233.283,"text":"那我的數字就是只有23的利用率我很懷疑那23的利用率裡面就像你說都在居家在用真的當然不是但這些也都需要那其他更需要等級更需要的人你完全一律平等的在處理啊那這樣機構怎麼會願意去照顧這個七八幾的這個相對重度的這個這個需求者七十六萬跟七十八萬跟陳昭日文跟陳昭日文跟陳昭日文跟陳昭日文跟陳昭日文跟陳昭日文"},{"start":8236.365,"end":8238.269,"text":"兩個先站動一會你再去解決一下好 77案"},{"start":8243.527,"end":8270.027,"text":"讓我講一下 其實現在是我這邊的案子那主要是我剛剛講過我們今年已經進入到超高齡的社會但是像嘉義縣的老年人口65歲的老年人口他是全國第一他老早就進入超高齡了他現在是超過22%的比例那再加上這個嘉義縣他的那個整個他有18個鄉鎮那他整個的交通網"},{"start":8270.788,"end":8289.109,"text":"非常的不方便所以坦白講那些老人家要外出看病看醫生他要搭這一個交通車就是現在無論是富康巴士或者是長照車他的那個使用需求其實是高的但現在整個嘉義縣全縣只有13輛的富康巴士"},{"start":8290.348,"end":8313.002,"text":"62輛的長照車在這個使用需求上面他是供不應求所以有人開玩笑說這個很像在搶演唱會的門票一開放半小時就額滿了那所以這個對於我是提醒衛福部針對有些縣市他老年人口比例又高交通網又不發達他不像台北市搭捷運公車這個交通系統這麼的發達那對於這一些縣市你們應該要特別去"},{"start":8319.345,"end":8338.279,"text":"考量到他们的需求而且你在政策上面应该不是齐头式的平等对于这种人口比例又高交通网又不发达那是不是你们在补助作业上可以让他们有更多因应他的需求他可以提出相关的计划而且给予应该有的补助这个是我提这个案"},{"start":8338.875,"end":8349.303,"text":"希望你們可以去進一步檢討的因為那些老人家真的他自己又不會騎摩托車又不會開車要出門真的靠的就是大眾跟政府提供的交通工具"},{"start":8351.065,"end":8377.117,"text":"好謝謝委員這邊的提醒那事實上我們也因應就是各地的這個交通的量能的問題所以我們已經修改了特約管理辦法裡面把可以特約這個計程車跟這個轎車平台的那個全部都納入修正這個幾副辦法你把它納進來那問題是嘉義縣目前還沒有願意跟交通業者來特約所以這個部分我們也會積極的輔導"},{"start":8384.111,"end":8400.565,"text":"是是我們會是是是那他們呃嘉義縣這邊也承諾也承諾說他呃以後會每年呃增加食量增加食量是好我們會朝這方面我們凍結100萬嘛齁自行調整對自行調整79萬"},{"start":8413.564,"end":8419.448,"text":"對 王委員 跟您請求一下就是您的75跟77能並動嗎對好 75跟77兩岸並動300萬 全部自己調整客戶有 客戶底下"},{"start":8434.558,"end":8436.801,"text":"科目就是自行調整79案是吳麗華吳委員那她不在"},{"start":8449.716,"end":8462.424,"text":"他是他是有簽名那他當時是同意說併86案然後改也是這個科目我們可以自行調整然後改動100萬元只是併86萬86萬要徵得陳怡委員的同意"},{"start":8468.073,"end":8486.55,"text":"好就79案動100萬吳俐娃簽名了是80案80案感謝林委員這邊的一個提案那也已經簽名改組決議好組決議81案81案感謝陳金威委員那也已經簽名改組決議好那80"},{"start":8490.578,"end":8493.781,"text":"這個媒體宣導我們其實今年都沒有增加一毛錢那我們因為確實這個長照一些不幸事件一直發生那我們檢討原因其實有很多是民眾還是保有那個傳統的觀念"},{"start":8515.14,"end":8536.029,"text":"認為家門不讓外人進來所以其實就是家屬自己硬撐所以我們覺得這樣的問題還是需要透過對於不同受眾的一個宣導來改變這樣的一個觀念那所以這個宣導真的很重要也希望招委這邊能夠支持是不是可以不要不然我動輒50萬報告再動輒"},{"start":8541.864,"end":8548.868,"text":"動50那柯牧是也可以讓我們自行討好謝謝謝謝83案陳金輝跟王委員跟陳昭州委員這邊其實已改組決議也已經簽名了好謝謝84案陳金輝委員這邊已經簽名改組決議好謝謝85案是劉建國委員還持續溝通中"},{"start":8572.834,"end":8596.36,"text":"你怎麼不講說就遵照我的提案辦那就不用持續溝通了動太多了不是啊這個也是在總執行都有提過嘛那就請市長可以做一個簡單回應嗎怎麼改善嘛因為這個人家全球市政的報告對這個市區中有這個足夠失智者的支持服務"},{"start":8597.202,"end":8623.849,"text":"認同比例只有48.5一般民眾的認同率就只有32.4那在我們雲林縣他們9月份自己 先生我自己的新聞稿寫的啦他統計 我們也是最早 不能講說最早啦可能前三名進到超高齡社會嘛那麼去調查 有施政有一萬多那結果有使用到這個施政的相關的長照的資質 扶得不到一半"},{"start":8626.031,"end":8652.546,"text":"所以這個相對這樣的一個調查報告的一個認同力就很顯實就很實際那怎麼改善這個狀況跟委員說明就是2024委員指出的這個全球施政報告我們整個了解它其實是設計在一個我們國內的那個台灣施政協會的官網上那其實它是採取由民眾自己"},{"start":8653.286,"end":8676.507,"text":"自主進去填寫那些問卷那大概收集了2700名民眾的一個填寫結果所以那個是非常主觀的感受說到底國內的失日政的一些相關的服務他們有沒有感受到充不充足這個部分先說明一下調查的方式跟結果那事實上目前台灣我們一直在講這個失日政策綱領"},{"start":8678.868,"end":8694.832,"text":"這個777的這個部分我們在113年有達到67.23%所以這一塊是確實有掌握到已經確診失智症的人的ID然後也在我們的服務體系裡面那這個部分是佔我們推估失智人數8%的失智人數裡面佔67%"},{"start":8698.873,"end":8714.028,"text":"那因為有這樣的一個結果所以他的家人的照顧者事實上也都在體系裡面可以得到一些支持所以這個部分跟網站上這個是主觀感受他的目標人口群有可能是"},{"start":8714.688,"end":8740.726,"text":"完全其實不是了解失智體系的人可能他就覺得他沒聽過他周遭也沒有所以他就體驗感受上是沒有的所以我想說這個調查結果跟我們實務上確實有掌握到這個ID跟家庭的這個照顧者其實是有這樣的一個落差那當然我們知道所有的服務民眾即使有進來使用他還是有一些覺得不是那麼友善需要再提升所以我們現階段"},{"start":8742.307,"end":8767.361,"text":"在規劃長照3.0也同步在修正我們的失智政策綱領要函班3.0因為失智政策綱領也是2.0也是到今年年底為止所以我們會同步跟3.0一樣都在115年讓他同步上路那現在這個失智政策綱領也請我們的台灣失智政協會找民間的一些專家學者一起正在討論嚴定當中以上做這樣一個報告"},{"start":8770.103,"end":8792.985,"text":"我已經露出對你善意的微笑但是我要刪一定有堅強的理由啦不然我是動啦也不是要跟你刪啦你說那些去接受調查的回應的都有主觀的這樣的主觀感受你又不是他們你怎麼知道他主觀"},{"start":8794.246,"end":8817.221,"text":"這第一點那第二點這個數據出來就是這樣社區中認同的就48.5一般民眾認同率就32.4你即便覺得這個數字不是很實際那雲林縣政府地方政府又他們自己的調查報告裡面是一半以上沒有使用到我們的這樣的一個施政的一個支持的服務"},{"start":8818.201,"end":8839.782,"text":"那就是這是事實啊除了地方政府他自己亂做的還是他過於主觀的報告啊他是開記者會的餒對不對那其他先是我不清楚我是兩個東西合起來跟市長提醒有這件事情嘛這七一嘛齁那七二長照3.0我們還沒有走但是大致上的換的方向應該清楚嘛"},{"start":8840.422,"end":8864.09,"text":"就醫療會增加更多進到這個體系裡面對不對然後居扶會再提升怎樣的患酬你們還在修嘛對不對然後可能機構式的看要怎麼再去做資源加強嘛應該大致上是三方向所以我一再的提醒說長照3.0要不要一併失智的3.0要不要一併來處理嘛時間一樣嘛對你們患酬是怎樣"},{"start":8870.424,"end":8897.102,"text":"就是一樣會由行政院這邊來不是啊實質的3.0有別於2.0是差異在什麼地方基本上因為失智我們的政策綱領其實都follow這個世界衛生組織那一邊那目前世界衛生組織對於3.0的這個方向我跟你比較熟啦你直接跟我講好不好你不要跟我講世界衛生組織跟他比較不熟我們失智這3.0的換成什麼"},{"start":8900.397,"end":8928.193,"text":"我們一樣是會提高要提高確診率然後及早掌握掌握失智症者所以這個一定是要確診因為現在國人還是對於尤其是CDR0.5的他會認為他自己其實是還是跟一般人一樣那我們也希望及早掌握到CDR0.5的能夠進到我們的一個服務場域裡面那讓他真的有機會就是不要不要再失智再加重然後能夠hold住"},{"start":8929.914,"end":8938.878,"text":"這個這個政策方向是會持續加強長照3.0的內容怎麼樣我就大致上幾個字就講完了嘛對不對你的失智3.0會變怎麼樣那麼幾個字就講完我們會對於困擾家庭的這樣的一個失智對象會有更多的照顧場域來讓民眾選擇不見更多的這些照顧場"},{"start":8954.804,"end":8981.078,"text":"如果沒有情緒 伴隨情緒行為困擾的這樣的失智症他其實住在家裡都OK我應該強調是失智症他必須要有這個相關的這些支持在三點裡面的支持連結會速度更快那比例應該會再提高對不對這是我們的方向好啦 阿你為什麼光在那邊 要動多一點沒有 要不然講一句話 你就插下去啦要不然要遵照我的提案辦理好啦 你要動多一點啦"},{"start":8986.603,"end":9009.994,"text":"因為這個經費真的就是我們補給這個部件這個失智的一些相關資源跟推動宣導的很重要的推動業務的費用預算編出來沒有一項是不重要的也沒有一項不是很重要的應該是這樣我動一擺好不好然後你把你的失智症的3.0的內容"},{"start":9012.395,"end":9020.718,"text":"再提供出來 好不好然後如果提升民眾的認同率還有使用率啦 好不好好 謝謝動100萬86萬陳穎的她簽了沒陳穎委員已經簽名了那她也同意我們科目能夠自行調整動300萬然後是 對動300萬那跟妳剛剛講的有併嗎 沒有吧"},{"start":9042.37,"end":9058.733,"text":"他就是要問他是不是能夠跟79案吳麗華委員這邊這個案子並動陳寅委員有同意要並案嗎目前沒有,可是吳委員是說希望跟陳寅這案並動沒關係啦,你再問陳寅啦好一個動100,一個動300嘛對不對是先分開啦好87案87案也是劉委員該組決議嘛該組決議好,謝謝"},{"start":9074.031,"end":9098.117,"text":"那個跟劉仁言說明一下劉仁言非常關心那個比爾館的儀儲尤其特別是在這個機構裡面可以照顧的這些人所以劉仁言的提案裡面很清楚的就是說希望我們對於儀儲這個比爾館的這些長照的人也必須要有一套的必有系統的一些教育訓練可以讓他們比較早可以訓練教育的一些人可以拔除"},{"start":9098.897,"end":9127.516,"text":"第二就是那個照顧的體系在裡面那個經費是不是能夠強化所以跟委員報告一下那健保在置物方案裡面47107B那目前是三千點但是目前這個相關的一些條件照顧的團隊人員的資格怎麼樣去調升這些目前都在召開專家會議當然是希望能夠有進行調整的一個必要符合現在的一個現況那怎麼樣來"},{"start":9128.817,"end":9146.266,"text":"加強這些訓練我們常常是有公告的一個照顧服務員的資格訓練裡面的核心課程也包括這些這個鼻喉管跟味噪喉管還有相關的一些技術上怎麼樣去相關訓練如果能夠來培訓這些人未來來強化能夠改善這一方面的一個"},{"start":9147.747,"end":9168.07,"text":"那對於機構裡面怎麼樣去減少這些住民到醫療機構有一個方案那希望能夠引介相關的照顧的人員來做獎勵機制來強化這些機構的一個照顧那跟委員做報告那這個大概是我們目前相關事務署有一些做法那跟劉委員做說明"},{"start":9169.631,"end":9189.989,"text":"那署長你請坐啦主席這個要讓我用一點點時間好不好也請部長就再看一下內容因為要處理這件事情的時候這個署說那個署那個署說那個師那個師又說那個師最後一定回到這個部部絕對跑不掉嘛"},{"start":9191.082,"end":9205.909,"text":"那我想這個時事長應該很清楚啦我們當時我應該講一個現狀啦你們能不能各單位所轄管的不管你是這個這個長照機構老人福利機構還是護理之家"},{"start":9207.256,"end":9233.555,"text":"住民使用現階段使用還使用鼻胃管的佔比是多高能不能各單位做一個說明一下讓我們大家很清楚護理之家在務實嘛對不對好大約幾成嘛大約五成護理之家有使用鼻胃管的住民五成嘛對不對老人福利機構老人福利機構"},{"start":9240.437,"end":9266.134,"text":"哪個福利機構現在就是住在這個機構裡面有使用鼻胃管的比例多高我們沒有很精確的統計但是照我們現在所看到數字大概應該是兩層到三層應該跑不掉兩層到三層是你沒有很統計正確的統計數據但是你的意向是二到三層是好謝謝那長洲機構"},{"start":9270.708,"end":9289.123,"text":"市委員說明我們目前系統上是沒有這個欄位所以目前沒有掌握這樣的資料那就挺奇怪了對不對婦女之家有掌握社家屬對老人福利機構是用印象的我們的長照機構是沒有那個欄位所以沒有掌握"},{"start":9292.518,"end":9312.437,"text":"請部長謝謝建國委員關心這個問題這個也是我們多年來我們在醫療領域非常重視的因為前部的照顧的procedure裡面鼻胃管大概是病人最痛苦而且這種最不願意的我們有做過調查"},{"start":9314.713,"end":9335.308,"text":"尤其在重症末期的病人所以我們在教育學生都特別跟他講說不要隨便跟人家ON NE不然你自己ON一次看看但是我們都會跟年輕律師從現在的教育會比較重視不是說要吃就把它ON進去"},{"start":9336.247,"end":9352.486,"text":"第一個要用進去就要很小心要一定要是不是你所有的照顧你所有的醫療的一些比較不侵犯性的工作都已經還有照顧工作是不是已經這樣比如說他可能嘴巴只是一個發炎"},{"start":9353.581,"end":9377.736,"text":"那不太能夠禁食,你以為他就不能禁食了,就把他ON-NE其實你只要把他的口腔的黴菌用喝個黴菌的藥喝兩天,他就可以吃很多了第二就是說,他有時候這個食物不能吃那其實我們把他改變食物,他還可以吃很多這不需要用NE第三個就是有時候,我們平常是12點"},{"start":9379.838,"end":9390.452,"text":"早晚12點可能會讓我們吃飯但是12點的時候就不會了那老人2點想要吃飯的時候沒有人會給他吃然後這個時候三次以後家屬就動不掉說我老婆沒吃飯不行就不願意了"},{"start":9396.993,"end":9425.996,"text":"這幾個都是在照護上必須要先處理的那即使你甕了在緊急當中甕了這個鼻胃管你還是可以其實還是可以移除在照護好一點的情況之下還是可以還是可以移除所以我很欽佩跟敬佩劉委員關心這個問題我覺得這個在未來的醫療跟結合長照的過程當中以及長照未來3.0裡面一定要去注意到這件事情那我不曉得"},{"start":9427.306,"end":9444.815,"text":"我們過去的一個基礎的data是怎麼樣那我覺得應該要有去改善計畫這個是非常人性化而是老人的尊嚴的事情而且是醫療上是可以幫助病人的事情我想留言的指導我想我們那個一定全力去來做這樣子"},{"start":9451.545,"end":9469.522,"text":"我們剛才問三個相關機構的單位跟蔡副司應得出來,他們的主任超過五成,這合理嗎?這我們待會要討論。長照社家署的老人福利機構,他不曉得到底是多少,不過印象是二到三成。"},{"start":9471.844,"end":9482.248,"text":"應該再問清楚一點應該不會亞於張護士啦你可以馬上了解一下嘛那我們的長照師是沒有那個染類所以基本上他不曉得這是很嚴重啦這樣的嚴重的情況之下就成為部長所講出來的這樣的一個狀況基本上是很大的衝突跟矛盾"},{"start":9494.736,"end":9511.561,"text":"這個健保署的呼吸器脫離力健保署他是醫療機構的範疇所以我沒有問到健保署的部分鼻胃管的脫離力我倒是倒是不是很對我當然啦我們就是要努力嘛但是我們"},{"start":9512.521,"end":9531.054,"text":"自己都不清楚我們轄管的這個機構到底多少人使用住民多少人使用的這個比例的時候你根本根本連要跨出第一步都沒有機會因為這一小步你都沒有做你就沒有另外的進展相關的計畫可以去推動嘛對不對沒有啦沒有啦沒有啦這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這這"},{"start":9540.547,"end":9566.489,"text":"倉庫比喻館有健保給付嘛對不對有啊有健保給付怎麼沒有你藏造機構還有交付沒辦法但在藏造機構放比喻館有付錢嗎沒有吧居家都有居家都有啊機構就沒有了吧機構沒有啦"},{"start":9571.034,"end":9590.164,"text":"你有沒有看到這個制度很奇怪有長照對象在聚焦使用博物館有支付在醫療機構有健保給付到長照機構沒有是這樣嗎還是你們不清楚"},{"start":9593.414,"end":9615.331,"text":"護理師家有對不對安養中心沒有那更換有啦但是就是他需要用到鼻胃管的時候要做這個的時候在醫療機構有健保給付嘛在護理師家也不是每一個進去的多數應該都是有的啦坦白講但是萬一他剛進去是沒有後來才有的時候一樣可以申請給付嘛對啦"},{"start":9621.499,"end":9645.89,"text":"不是啦 一個是更換啦 一個是原本不需要用 後來後來又用了對 那個可以申請健保給付嗎對嘛 好 長照機構可以嗎是一樣嘛 對不對好嘛 好 就是用的時候就是要使用的時候可以跟健保署申請健保給付嘛好 拔出來的時候有沒有健保給付拔出來應該沒有啦"},{"start":9651.487,"end":9654.415,"text":"通過軍服 平常在醫院發毒是沒有止毒的"},{"start":9658.555,"end":9683.934,"text":"沒有啦 更換有幾副啦這個更換有幾副嘛這個更換包括這個在醫療機構因為它是短期使用所以它擦的時候有幾副拔的時候沒幾副啦因為我們很多手術的時候會先擦嘛然後排氣啊什麼之後它就拔除了所以拔除是沒有幾副擦入的時候有幾副但是對長期留置的"},{"start":9685.066,"end":9704.783,"text":"我們有一個方案嘛 劉委員很關心那個多少時間內能夠把它拔除我們就會有一個額外 3000元的獎勵啦那等於是一種獎勵平常的拔除是沒有額外給付啦以前是沒有嘛 現在有這項嘛 對不對訓練移除這樣"},{"start":9709.927,"end":9736.54,"text":"把畢業館可以移組嘛 對不對讓它原有的咀嚼功能不會喪失嘛 對不對也不會便宜形式的這樣靠騎就一輩子一輩子騎久了嘛 對不對所以這個就是一個很清楚的邏輯問題嘛齁如果今天有我們的所有的這個機構裡面對這個事情很重視然後有一定的一個評比就像市長講的沒有那個欄位現在變得有這個欄位之後"},{"start":9738.842,"end":9750.862,"text":"我們不會去花生到台灣變成所有的這些機構不管是物理之家 不管長照機構 老人福利機構我們的住民使用鼻胃管的比例是高於全世界的比例"},{"start":9753.934,"end":9768.734,"text":"這樣我要表達這個意思不曉得大家能不能懂我意思因為部長其實剛剛已經講到精髓了但是重點我們在問這個事情的時候這個署推那個署那個署推那個師那個師推那個師相對的你今天就是會有相關的一些數據一直沒辦法凸顯出來"},{"start":9770.6,"end":9792.254,"text":"所以我們去看日本的長照機構人家已經跟我們說他們的比喻管使用的比例已經很低了剛進來一堆可能剛進來的住民80%但是經過半年 一年 兩年 三年之後他們可以幫他們的住民把比喻管拔掉但是會用更多的時間做餵食的動作不過他們覺得這是應該做的"},{"start":9795.639,"end":9818.831,"text":"因為他一旦別院管裝著之後你讓他裝了太久的時間他的咀嚼也出了問題嘛反而未來的健保給付啦相關給付反而是增加嘛他讓他可以回復到一定程度的咀嚼的時候那種醫療上的支出他其實是降低的嘛我是要說這個嘛我要說這個說你住在長照機構的時候是誰看得出這件事誰處理這件事沒有要跟我說那些人沒處理那些人沒處理那些人你告訴我那些人沒處理"},{"start":9825.504,"end":9851.996,"text":"就不對了啊這怎麼對我想您提出的問題我們絕對不能不能再一直持續這樣沒有處理所以我想我們以人為中心不管不是分部門他整個從醫療到結合長照這個部分以這個人為中心給他最好的照顧結合用盡所有部門的力量來促使這個人有尊嚴"},{"start":9853.577,"end":9871.643,"text":"能夠發揮他最好的一個個的能力不要喪失他我們腦部的能力 咀嚼的能力 活動的能力各種能力 心智的能力 身體的能力我們都要去啟發他到最極點這個部分我們一定全力以赴這個是未來的重點"},{"start":9873.317,"end":9889.438,"text":"謝謝部長這麼善意的回應因為部長講到尊嚴的問題這其實真的是尊嚴的問題人要能活下去大家都很清楚我們自己的事我們要怎麼說尤其口腔師很清楚人生也不會薄薄作弊"},{"start":9891,"end":9897.388,"text":"對不對,一輩子賣寶,你又挖掘,你又挖掘,你又挖掘,你又挖掘,你又挖掘,你又挖掘,你又挖掘,你又挖掘,你又挖掘"},{"start":9907.32,"end":9933.678,"text":"這做清楚這麼重要的事情這真的是以人為本 以人性的一個照顧的方法去做出就這樣而已但是他們坦白講沒有很好做但是你會做不可啊你不能不做啊這原本就各個機關你們應該去把它列為重點怎麼會那個欄位沒有怎麼會不曉得到底比例是多高"},{"start":9935.311,"end":9956.837,"text":"所以我還是要動啦但我可以動少一點沒關係但是我請部長是不是交代嘛各單位把針對這個事情要如何對長道體系啦移除鼻胃管的正確認知與積極的措施保障生存者的自信與尊嚴相關的計畫提供出來給委會做參考嘛同意或使得動之那我改動100好不好好謝謝"},{"start":9958.82,"end":9980.877,"text":"那就改到一百萬部長要指定哪一個單位要去牽頭最重要的領導這也是寫國電史嗎?這也沒有關係長照碼"},{"start":9982.347,"end":10010.007,"text":"我想自己叔叔如果覺得這個地方沒有做好的就趕快去做好那我們整個部是有健康台灣在長照3.0的推動裡面尤其只要負責長照3.0的在這方面因為他是結合醫療跟長照的結合全部要注意還是以病人為中心當然看起來是長照師要去推動一下"},{"start":10014.211,"end":10041.621,"text":"那個主席我要改了 抱歉原本動500就動500 你看就是這樣啊現在是我姓啊 你自己看動500啦 各單位都 請部長要求嘛各單位都提出相關的因應 計畫 報告然後 要解凍就要解凍對啦 就有一個主責單位然後你去主責就這麼簡單我想我們一定會 這個是重點啦但是也不要動那麼多啦 可不可以"},{"start":10043.122,"end":10046.025,"text":"這的確是這個問題從30年前我們開始注重到重症病人的品質的時候就開始這個問題"},{"start":10057.597,"end":10082.024,"text":"但是我們一定要跟得上日本跟得上歐美台灣在這個部分已經很人性化的照顧那過去在長照也許我們還需要加強那是不是由長照師這邊先因為現在3.0這邊是在負責嘛醫療跟長照的結友是3.0的重點所以這個部分是不是長照師先來主持那其他相關的部分"},{"start":10082.608,"end":10098.334,"text":"都一定要全力一起來做那是不是也不要動態動態沒有啦我原本就自己五百要降到一百嘛對不對你不跟我說就要降下來嘛但是我要說你要看到底對管理補救的就現在很鐵了嘛"},{"start":10100.121,"end":10116.239,"text":"不是你們能不能陳魯部長剛剛講的嘛就給我們的照顧者有一點尊嚴嘛如果這些照顧者是今天你的親戚你三個公啊你有進步啊他可能是他可能是剛剛一個車禍然後就必須短期內接受這個照顧然後接受醫療"},{"start":10120.043,"end":10139.455,"text":"然後後來可能他引發了一些慢性病後來必須要到長照機過去但是你看他的精神狀況然後講話都還很正常結果他被做了鼻胃管他一做下去之後隔半年再隔一年都沒有拔出來你們心裡什麼感想"},{"start":10141.138,"end":10149.689,"text":"然後機構會有感覺說這樣我比較好管理會想要我比較好處理不敢跟他說啦但是英語給你們知道這樣你們都沒感覺你們就覺得這樣也剛好沒道理啊這個的確是一個大工程啦只要從醫護"},{"start":10159.302,"end":10184.283,"text":"各種方法 團隊的專業教育因為比較簡單 稍早當時日本要推這個也很趕快推然後他們把營養士弄到團隊裡面那營養士就會教他怎麼樣飲食慢慢的飲食 那都要花時間在筆位館才可以拿掉那我想我們應該要趕快進階到這個部分那我請長照師主持其他部位來協助那在長照3.0把這個列為重點"},{"start":10187.565,"end":10204.316,"text":"我們會把相關的計畫來提出來這個是我非常care的我不希望每一個人都長長的鼻子出生的時候有沒有長長的鼻子每次到末期大家都掛著一直長長的鼻子這樣子是我們手不能容忍的這個要努力"},{"start":10207.419,"end":10230.359,"text":"謝謝部長 我最後講一句話就好了你要改動少一點我沒有意見 你看你要改動多少我都OK但是你相關的待遇就是把你們的怎麼樣來做這事情的相關計畫引你出來然後給委員會 經同意後使得動之最後我再補充一點 部長如果我們相關的機構對照日本我們都高於人家一倍"},{"start":10231.4,"end":10248.583,"text":"我們住民都高於日本的相關的機構都一倍以上了那我們是很失敗的喔這個數據是可以馬上調出來可以來做對比不管是護理之家不管是老人福利機構不管是長照機構這是聽說調出來對的喔調出來比就對了所以希望把相關的計畫提出來給我們做參考好不好謝謝好那就動一百萬然後"},{"start":10259.707,"end":10274.228,"text":"經同意之後才能解凍鼻味管事實上放久了會容易產生鼻竇炎甚至於中耳炎這是事實然後晚上會引起嘔吐吸入性都會有"},{"start":10275.43,"end":10301.641,"text":"所以 但是 換遍好管理 管管理就好如果用主角的事真的要花很多時間都要找老闆那對照顧的人也要花很多時間所以大家都貪圖換遍所以這個今天講的問題是非常非常好非常重要好 第88案88案是由黃相永所提案 遵照辦理89案"},{"start":10303.7,"end":10332.615,"text":"八十九案謝謝我們陳經惠委員同意修改文字以後遵照辦理九十案謝謝陳經惠委員我們遵照辦理九十一案九十一案謝謝陳經惠委員同意我們修正文字已經簽名那我們遵照辦理九十二案九十二案林玉琴委員提案我們遵照辦理九十三案謝謝陳經惠委員也修正文字已簽名好九十四案謝謝陳經惠委員遵照辦理好"},{"start":10333.41,"end":10339.437,"text":"好那我們現在休息六分鐘休息後繼續第二輪剩下九個案齁等一下我們要趕完了"},{"start":10354.719,"end":10356.6,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":10379.371,"end":10379.892,"text":"晚一點在這裡講"},{"start":10406.254,"end":10412.227,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":10487.233,"end":10487.253,"text":"應該會應該啦"},{"start":11219.667,"end":11221.668,"text":"好 我們現在繼續開會第二輪繼續審查來 第三案陳昭珠委員第三案出國加拿大是啊就是說我首先要跟執行長講的以後不要再講部立醫院好嗎因為部不會有立的醫院你們先證明你們算是國立醫院"},{"start":11247.225,"end":11259.803,"text":"只有市立縣立醫院沒有哪個機構有個立的醫院第一個那國立醫院代表什麼很重要國家26家醫院是在這個醫福會在管理那在去年5月我就質詢了就是當時那個"},{"start":11262.427,"end":11266.55,"text":"我家這個桃園醫院院長懸缺那時候懸缺22個月那我執行的時候薛部長立刻第一秒就跟我說應該要無縫接軌結果這件事執行長你知道最後是多久才補上這個院長嗎這個缺是很多人才很多人想要不是找不上下找不到人的醫院結果你放了26個月對不對最後才補上這個人這件事情醫福會難道不用負最大責任嗎"},{"start":11292.527,"end":11294.168,"text":"一個醫院沒有院長是代理的大家人心惶惶不知道會怎麼樣代理院長能做什麼那這件事已經八九個月了為什麼現在還繼續出現呢執行長為什麼現在還繼續出現呢現在還有很多家醫院是沒有無縫接軌是空的空在那裡等這是第一個我要談的"},{"start":11314.01,"end":11327.617,"text":"那這樣就是我認為是管理這管理的問題就是你要在國內把26家國家醫院管理好這是最基本的工作還有請不要在你們的院長群組裡面亂講說委員三不一的醫院的預算我從來疼惜26家國家醫院不會刪他們的預算最重要是我在管理單位我會做要求"},{"start":11338.763,"end":11349.411,"text":"管理衣服會管理是非常重要的好重點在這裡請不要散播謠言這個就是很不應該那你訂出國經費這個都是奪人的納稅錢那該去的我也覺得合情合理但是如果你不是主責那個項目為什麼要出國呢動不動每次出國都要二三十萬的這個預算那這樣你還不如把錢留給部一"},{"start":11362.882,"end":11372.892,"text":"對不對這樣子更合理啊所以老實說啊這裡面有幾項我都有去研究我都有研究第一個ISQA國際健康照護品質協會年會啊跟醫院管理不相關啊為什麼年年都要參加為什麼啊決算金額上次是26萬"},{"start":11380.72,"end":11404.737,"text":"美国公共卫生协会年会跟医院管理无关过去年年都参加实质效益决算金额也是三十几万世界医院大会我觉得这个OK世界医院大会是IHF但是我要了解就是已经都知道了实际召开时间几天哪个国家为什么要编那么多的经费这个都是必要的"},{"start":11407.089,"end":11428.319,"text":"長照機構的考察是長照室的範圍跟醫院管理有什麼關係另外還有一個考察智能醫療國內有很多家醫學中心可以考察台中總統就做得非常好連賴總統都去看過了那為什麼需要考察那時候去美國的HIMSS決算金額又超過30萬所以我的意思是說如果你把26家國家的醫院管理好"},{"start":11436.124,"end":11444.212,"text":"我只要跟你講你不要以為只有個別的很多人很多不同的醫院的正副院長也都會有跟我反映一些事實所以第一個就是說把正副院長缺有缺的部長你也要聽這件事情"},{"start":11456.061,"end":11462.745,"text":"他有缺都是預期的啊他不過卸任或是借鈴都是預期的啊為什麼放那麼久等人等誰啊那我們就可以開始做很多猜想啊那個劇本就很複雜了你在等誰啊給誰都都是這樣公器私用嗎這個這個要先做好啊"},{"start":11476.993,"end":11491.199,"text":"26家這個國家醫院本來就要好好照顧你這個管理就是在衣服會啊啊你居然出國一年出國有時候很多次我記得好像最多還有七八次的然後裡面不相關的很多而且不是有個內規嗎不是規定說三年後才能再去同一家的那個會議嗎那為什麼別人要遵守別的公務員要遵守那執行長不用遵守"},{"start":11503.07,"end":11509.652,"text":"為什麼可以年年去不是三年當中不能去重複的那個會議嗎那這個都要遵守啊而且要相關的啊所以我並不是我一樣一樣去了解我並不是不讓你出國而是說這個旅費要用的正當明目正當然後要按照你自己設的規律規範然後要把你分類的工作做好然後才去出國考察那些考察很多都是可以再討論的啊考察的內容跟項目跟這個會議內容都可以討論的啊好請指揮長說明"},{"start":11531.058,"end":11557.537,"text":"好 謝謝委員的指教那當然這個政府院長的遴選其實我們在這個部分裡面那最近的草屯那還有苗栗都有已經公告已經有當選的人選了那當後續就是說為什麼有些時間delay因為我們要找一些我們的口試的委員那因為口試的委員在這個時間裡面大家要都要超過我們法定的人數所以那個時間稍微有一點等一下等一下 執行長你又來了"},{"start":11559.658,"end":11564.16,"text":"這個都是預先知道的口試委員大家搶著做權力很大搶著做不要跟我說找不到口試委員誰不想去評選那個衛福部正副院長的那個這個人選的評選啊怎麼會找不到口試委員呢搞不好一票幾百個幾千個想要去做這個工作不會的不要跟我說找不到因為你是預期我一直講預期的嘛預期的嘛"},{"start":11585.487,"end":11593.011,"text":"除非有一個非常意外的事情發生他是預期的嘛卸任時間都預期的嘛你當然到最後才找你放著不找你當然就會這樣講等一個委員嗎那個委員有關鍵嗎大法官我們都不能要求全員出席啦"},{"start":11599.233,"end":11603.977,"text":"所以才要制度化 要提前做無縫接軌嘛 邱部長我問你 政府院長 衛福部 政府院長是不是要無縫接軌 要不要空著 空著等 等誰"},{"start":11621.662,"end":11639.214,"text":"我們報告一下,像我一上任,馬上部立桃園醫院就增補,就增選嘛,所以...為瀑布桃園醫院啦,它不是立啦好啦,沒關係啦,你說國立的,它有國家的責任,我們當然要部立醫院要盡到國家的責任,所以變成國立的想法是對的啦"},{"start":11648.174,"end":11662.649,"text":"絕對 我絕對不容許有delay的問題 但是在...那發生啊 我都有統計數字啦沒關係 那個就是說幾乎...半年是起碼的啊而且第一個 我們的委員都是絕對得高望重"},{"start":11664.671,"end":11680.541,"text":"應該都是算他說找不到啊沒有辦法出事啊沒有辦法找啊我們出的都一定是醫學中心營養還是做營養給醫生的絕對都是挑戰第二個我們絕對沒有去做任何的"},{"start":11681.771,"end":11691.921,"text":"我想執行長也很清楚那就是無縫接軌你同意嗎有發生過啊台北醫院好幾家醫院都是無縫接軌啊馬上都準備好了一下就放進去了好多家已經有例子啊因為要一步一步來嘛有的可以有的不可以 或者怪怪的 答問號啊"},{"start":11705.683,"end":11722.611,"text":"我們不需要去等人等誰我完全沒有這種理由啊發生了啊桃園醫院發生了等了26個月才補人啊桃園醫院最肥的醫院最有潛力的醫院桃園醫院在我們5203年以後沒多久就處理了所以"},{"start":11725.052,"end":11737.349,"text":"所以大概都有在處理這個放心齁沒有我逼著才去把你選公告我不敢講說百分之百有辦法馬上那你回答我一個原則是不是要無縫接軌院長是不是要無縫接軌一個醫院的院長是不是要無縫接軌"},{"start":11739.082,"end":11764.42,"text":"一定是盡量無妨這一回嘛盡量無妨 我們會朝這個目標來努力但是任期到了是不是都知道考評過不過是不是都知道卸任是不是都知道我們會知道 你都會知道嘛我們會公告要制度嘛對 公告 那有一個公告的日期至少兩個月前就要做啦對 願意報名的這些有資格的他就提他的這個據我瞭解有些人你們電話還叫他說你不要來報名了我們已經有內定人選了"},{"start":11765.44,"end":11784.753,"text":"這個我聽太久了我聽了二十年一二十年但是這一年絕對不可能發生不能再發生了不可能發生不要讓我聽到任何人說我要報名他們叫我不用來報名我不能接受任何說什麼我完全是很公平公正為我們國家的醫院造型最好的"},{"start":11785.353,"end":11793.304,"text":"最好的人才所以我的意思是說那些東西當然另外那是另外出的行政就讓他來檢討你屆期到了會知道會空缺出來你多久前要準備好啊為什麼讓這個國家的意願空在那裡等人"},{"start":11802.996,"end":11828.073,"text":"等某一個人他已經發聲了跟委員報告就是因為我們這個完了以後會經過人事的一個考評這個資格所以你要提前啊然後後面就最後就是說我們會有經過我們的所謂的邀請我們的考試委員那考試委員就會比對時間那我們裡面有個規定就是遴選辦法裡面二分之一的委員要出席然後三分之二的委員要同意那你為什麼有的院辦得到有的院辦不到"},{"start":11828.813,"end":11848.823,"text":"你也要背著委員啊沒有這種事情我們會把這個建立制度會提早再作業這個已經歷史這麼悠久了現在才說要建立制度政府院長這麼重要的職缺有一些人士還是說在這個部分因為有些要走的流程會讓整個理事會更正更開所以才要制度化要提前準備嘛"},{"start":11850.483,"end":11858.006,"text":"所以才要制度提前準備嘛就是要讓他卸任的時候你就補上去嘛我就在講同一個重點啊我從頭到尾都講同一個重點啊無縫結果我從來沒有介入任何一個人事案你用領選辦法公開領選辦法然後你就是領選然後按照領選結果來做部長做定奪"},{"start":11868.55,"end":11884.44,"text":"我就是這樣啊 就是請你們趕快補上啊部長在這個部分 其實剛剛委員關係 比如說桃園以上那個我們最近的 剛剛講的草屯 然後苗栗都已經補上那比如這個岐山醫院 我們現在就是要找委員的時間我們會在盡快裡面回來做遴選"},{"start":11888.406,"end":11905.499,"text":"委員你要準備好啊不是說委員幾個不能來你就停住了難道有特定的委員不能來你就不開會了嗎在委員有一個委員庫啦也不是說對啊委員庫啊所以怎麼可能都不能來委員庫差不多二三十個了是啊二三十個了他們在找可能不可能都不能來啦"},{"start":11906.42,"end":11932.848,"text":"也是有點頭痛因為這幾個都是很忙那所以要的確要找人不要用委員忙這個東西不要用這個啦委員會再參加多少一輩子二十幾歲我就參加委員了請叫陳委員講那個原則你們寫個主結一出來嘛可以吧就是不要delay就是不要空中擠因為如果你這個東西沒有做好你出國的次數太高會不相關的我自然就會覺得這是你要把本務做好嘛"},{"start":11933.288,"end":11947.615,"text":"那我剛剛也是說啊如果世界醫療我就OK啊你只要把它說明清楚那有一些不相關的其實有很多其他的人會去看這個可能要說明一下比如說為什麼公共衛生對我再說明一下然後年年去對嗎不是有規範嗎三年不能去啊醫護會裡面不只醫療啦也有安養的社福的社福的嘛所以"},{"start":11954.258,"end":11958.843,"text":"那就其他的人可以去啊長照師就長照師去啊跟委員報告ISQA就是國際的醫療品質的會議他是我們醫測會在訂醫院評鑑的指標那醫測會去啊 就醫測會去啊他會邀各個醫院的層級都會一起參加醫測會去啊 不要執行長這麼辛苦啊"},{"start":11971.818,"end":11979.941,"text":"是 他們就會訂比如說要新的年度我們把減碳放入我們的醫院平均的指標所以我們要去學習那請問知事 你說的那三年內不能重複的去開會怎麼辦我們行政局各級所屬機關派員這個編審要點的第三條跟第四款這邊講到的三年是講到考察"},{"start":11991.084,"end":12000.874,"text":"那這個考察是到剛剛講的如果它是同一個地點是不行但如果我們是開國際會議是不在這個部分裡面所以是考察所以我待會把這個要點給委員再參考一下你如果越來越多那個功能性的會議你不越來越多"},{"start":12008.902,"end":12036.876,"text":"就都不能中斷就每年都去然後就增加只會增加不會減少剛剛提到的那個APHA那個美國公共醫生協會他其實是叫美國的公衛及醫療的這個會議他其實裡面的場次是有50多個場次那裡面辦所謂的醫院管理或者說在clinical的這個部分裡面是超過200個這個topic啦所以包含我們的leadership裡面也有大概43個場次所以都是在我們的醫院管理非常重要要去學習"},{"start":12037.276,"end":12057.222,"text":"我其實是說你內部26家國立醫院要先把它的事情做好我光看到正副院長的臨選可以這樣子公器私用而且裡面問題一大堆那你說我怎麼會覺得說會支持或贊成說不相關我支持不相關的會議可能也是派其他人去是更適當的"},{"start":12059.139,"end":12082.85,"text":"這個部份我當然要更關注啊你要留在國內好好的把這些事情做好啊委員關心的這個部份那個院長會長林顯為什麼有時候會稍微所以這個要報告第一家第一名醫院兩年多才補院長你說哪一家桃園醫院2020年7月一直到去年的8月才補到"},{"start":12084.195,"end":12101.325,"text":"你看我們效益還蠻高的我們兩年耶就馬上兩個月就補上優秀的人才你不肯蓋瓜承受喔主席他不肯蓋瓜承受我在講衛福部他說只算他上任的不是啦所以說我們來所謂蓋瓜承受就是要解決問題啊所以我們已經解決問題了嘛現在也我現在還有好幾家醫院不會啦如果有任何一家醫院有"},{"start":12109.89,"end":12113.632,"text":"慢的話我們都要解釋就不能再發售了啦其實我們現在都已經安排時間在座的人應該聽不懂嗎國家的醫院你鄭副院長出缺"},{"start":12121.328,"end":12132.4,"text":"你在等什麼你之前兩個月借零借滿你們都有任期的規定規範嘛這都知道了為什麼不事先做不要跟我說委員不能來開會有空沒有空來開會這個說不過去啦我們會的提報告我們會的提報告"},{"start":12141.79,"end":12156.181,"text":"可能要分 看誰是最適合去的那不一定都要主席自己去啦主席這樣也很辛苦你不要經常去啦 你有我幫你去的啦我們都會簽報部長啦然後經過人事會計 這個部分是我們當然都是按照規定 只是說人才的培育也是很重要的不一定 你也沒有要每天都自己來對不對 你所有人會互惠 不只你自己來"},{"start":12174.455,"end":12184.642,"text":"所以你沒有串供那個落跑的嫌疑,這個就是說我國內的事情先把它做好,內部的事情做好,你看現在要怎麼處理,范執行長你怎麼建議"},{"start":12188.561,"end":12190.002,"text":"我去年五月就執行,沒有人管我啦"},{"start":12205.117,"end":12227.142,"text":"那時候是薛部長啦 他都沒人插話啦但是你們都在聽啦 國會頻道你們都在監聽啦這麼重要的事情 媒體又有洩露啦都沒人插話啦 都不重要逼著我倒預算的時候才來處理我建議齁 現在這是要出國考察要去參加ISQA 什麼這些有些不像相關的 連連去不行啦也不能連連去啦這也很重要啦 說實在的重要 但是看誰要去啊誰也要去啊"},{"start":12234.872,"end":12255.51,"text":"跟醫院管理無關的啊沒有啦 世界醫院大會我就覺得OK啊因為還在管理醫院啊 我也覺得OK啊你也把費用稍微講一下因為你就知道行程哪個國家嘛大概幾天 我們就知道要合理的預算嘛"},{"start":12257.284,"end":12279.615,"text":"好啦,你給董20萬啦,我給他報告啦他在執行,你都沒給他回答,這樣不對啦他就放著不管啦,而且事實就發生了啊好,我們會指導委員的這個辦理沒有啦,什麼意思什麼意思,那主席,現在你的意思是要我遵照主席決心給董姐20萬,然後請董姐多少錢20萬"},{"start":12284.906,"end":12285.61,"text":"這個是謝謝總共那一半要八萬而已"},{"start":12287.932,"end":12290.934,"text":"沒有啦 這是累積很久的啦這是累積很久的啦"},{"start":12318.312,"end":12346.709,"text":"就是跟他賺20萬 叫他來跟他報告報告到料貸可以解凍這樣好不好 這樣可以啦50萬 你剛剛說50萬20 我從頭到尾都說20 我沒說到50他不要每次都去啦 是是是執行長每次去 因為接把我要求的部分我們的副局長跟我們的主管也都有去啦國家醫院 不是接我去"},{"start":12347.709,"end":12349.77,"text":"這凍結20萬然後怎麼管理中心來跟你報告"},{"start":12366.135,"end":12368.616,"text":"然後報告的結果也報告給委員會然後同意之後使得動之"},{"start":12381.984,"end":12397.549,"text":"好 謝謝委員執行長 我要求的就是一個制度問題如果今天制度沒有發生這個問題我也不會處理到這個細節啦那 好啊 趙偉我又我又賣你面子 遵照趙偉指示謝謝委員 今天就沒補充他不給我面子咧好 來來 第14案"},{"start":12411.321,"end":12427.216,"text":"第14案這個是陳昭志委員這邊特別關心我們那個藥品的審查案件的進度可以公開啦那我們目前的這個設計上是只有廠商申請的廠商可以查詢"},{"start":12428.197,"end":12450.871,"text":"那這個陳委員是希望也能夠讓民眾大家也都能夠看得到那我們很認同這樣的概念所以我們朝這個方向來努力開過一次會了那我們接下來我們再詢問各個這個藥商的這個工協會團體如果沒有什麼反對意見我們就會來進行公開反對也要進行啊"},{"start":12451.631,"end":12459.58,"text":"反對我們會看他反對的理由如果有違反到比如說一些商業機密的問題我現在只是基本的進度大家都看病人都在看這個藥為什麼等這麼久我的統計數字你們不敢採用但是AIT等等他們都採用我的統計數字"},{"start":12468.59,"end":12490.799,"text":"你一個平均一個癌藥你就是要等兩三年那病人就是等到沒有機會用啦那你到底進度到什麼程度你現在是在申請作業階段還是說在溢價階段我也沒有說溢價是你們的時間是你們的大家都可以算廠商也有責任喔這個是解讀問題但是你要知道我現在這個心要跑到哪裡所以大家都說癌藥用不到啊用不到癌藥"},{"start":12491.36,"end":12506.622,"text":"跟委員報告我們去年整個新增的癌藥跟這個擴充給付是達到63項是歷年最高的而且影響的預算超過100億癌藥的部分而已"},{"start":12507.463,"end":12535.516,"text":"所以我們前年是58案去年是63案我們一直在努力增加我知道你很努力也加速了因為委員開會的頻率增加了花了很多時間去開會但是最重要的是如果你跟其他的國家比你還是很慢我知道我們癌病癌藥的存活率輸人家添添輸韓國添添輸10%穿很多繼續命繼續命他是用癌藥比喻也不是說只有癌藥的部分所以要公開透明是最好但透明我沒有說要機密"},{"start":12536.797,"end":12539.365,"text":"我沒有說他要多少錢反正沒有啊進度進度"},{"start":12541.944,"end":12564.819,"text":"因為你醫療的部分 醫療項目你就做到啦為什麼醫療項目就做到 為什麼這個地方做不到好 我知道你的意思 我們也很認同我們溝通完之後是朝這個方向來做我們講好多年了耶 真的嗎 署長你真的要做嗎你真的肯做嗎 我們講好多當然你還沒有當署長 我就開始講對啦 我知道 未來兩年嘛 我會把一些事情來搞完整這個我們會來朝這個方向"},{"start":12569.728,"end":12583.759,"text":"你今天可以跟全國的病友團體等待新藥的病友團體承諾嗎所以你會讓他知道他們所要等待的新藥大概現在進度在哪裡就是朝這個審查案件的進度公開透明我們朝這個這個方向來執行這樣"},{"start":12588.437,"end":12603.655,"text":"我們會先讓公協會都表示意見因為我們整個程序上還是應該公開透明所以要公開的內容什麼都要讓大家確認清楚然後我們就公開我們現在不是要公開機密也沒有說他申請多少錢要還多少錢"},{"start":12609.501,"end":12631.858,"text":"還多少錢給衛福部沒有進度這個要申請了現在大家等著看那個新藥要用現在在什麼階段在什麼階段在什麼階段準備什麼階段就這樣啊對就是我們會公開的就是說我們會先跟藥商他們了解就是什麼時候送件的我們什麼時候受理因為中間還有行政審查補件什麼什麼時候進專家會議什麼時候"},{"start":12636.161,"end":12640.543,"text":"還在協商議價然後什麼時候供你會議然後通過結果可能還是沒有同意供你會通過結果還是沒有辦法執行他到哪裡了我們做這個方面的公開就這樣啊沒有機密啊不要老是做機密啊"},{"start":12652.247,"end":12671.807,"text":"你每次都說那個霸凌調查有機密哪來的機密我從來沒有講過任何機密啊被訪人沒有啊幾份人其實說了什麼事情沒有機密啊完全沒有機密為什麼要徵求他們同意沒有機密啊這個還是一個公開因為我們要公開的這些內容還是要讓大家確認讓大家不要擔心啦"},{"start":12673.109,"end":12690.025,"text":"主題是這樣說我們公開的這樣的內容大家OK不OK如果都沒有意見沒有特別的考量了我們還是採用公開透明的程序啦不能說我要做什麼就做什麼這樣也不好啊沒有啦 保證你 署長我先把你關起來"},{"start":12692.826,"end":12715.622,"text":"我們沒辦法做什麼就做什麼啦我們還是要跟大家先溝通過所以給我們一點時間我這裡公開說新藥為什麼會那麼慢啦就是錢要砍滴滴啦那病人數都不全給啦就是限制限制不人道的限制啦你只能限制幾個月啦要多少錢然後我只照顧多少人啦然後到最後終身折衣使用這個不人道不符合國際指引的事都出來都在那邊處理啦處理到病人都"},{"start":12717.884,"end":12724.87,"text":"我們去年就已經擴充那個癌藥的擴充幾戶33項我今年二月就任期滿30年我太清楚了那個時間點沒有機密沒有機密我們要求公開要求公開你現在跟病友講說不一樣可以啦可以啦你就這樣跟病友轉檔"},{"start":12740.583,"end":12745.988,"text":"跟剛才那個連檢劑有說過嗎對一百萬三個月內這樣是一百萬嗎這樣給時間長一點點對三個月因為我們中間又過年嘛徵詢之後正式會議確認之後我們就上"},{"start":12759.162,"end":12775.892,"text":"就比照醫療服務項目這個審查的進度是藥署某個程度審查的進度也都是公開的可以齁署長你這是真的公開答應我了我公開答應你但是我要程序啦我認為方向上朝這個地方朝這個方向是可行啦"},{"start":12776.812,"end":12782.541,"text":"好啦謝謝署長我現在你日理千機啦所以我知道但是這個是很重要啦好第14案凍結100萬三個月內跟陳委員報告也給委員會報告"},{"start":12792.628,"end":12818.788,"text":"二十七案二十七案的部分的話有跟劉委員溝通劉委員現場希望能夠表達一些意見那我們希望劉委員能夠同意就是做一些修改改動一百萬然後於三個月內交書面報告以上那這個這個我一定給你三個啦動一百是別委員的意見因為其實"},{"start":12820.402,"end":12848.438,"text":"這偏鄉沒有壓抑的部分講很久了然後我們又被排在這個第二期我就覺得已經很有道理了那這中間又卡了很多事情我就不再贅述這部長都非常清楚那到現在還是一樣還沒有辦法正式實施啊你議期當時要是什麼你要等到什麼時候我們就是依照行政院的指示我們現在在去年的12月30號已經報行政院新的計畫"},{"start":12849.398,"end":12871.077,"text":"那現在計畫希望因為他現在已經在國發會審查當中我們希望能夠盡快能夠實施在今年開始實施等行政院核定之後那今年什麼時候會核定我也不曉得嘛對不對是我們現在在國發會審查當中你看一期什麼時候就開始實施了一期啊你不是第一期啊"},{"start":12871.536,"end":12894.598,"text":"第一期的話是110年左右然後到113年對啊那我們現在我們這個偏鄉沒有牙醫的像運線不是只有一個鄉而已對不對兩個鄉然後人口數都超過兩萬五千多到現在還沒有然後你還把它排在第二期"},{"start":12895.519,"end":12915.579,"text":"當然這不是怪你啦不是怪你我是覺得這樣啦這個也請部長重視這個事情啦對不對這個有些偏鄉的醫療的整個資源的分配的先後順序然後為什麼這個會排在二期而且是隔了四年後才排入的"},{"start":12918.232,"end":12931.911,"text":"這當時的當時你還沒有當部長嘛對不對這個我很清楚不過那個時候為什麼是這樣的一個安排然後我們有一直在講喔有一直在提醒那後來就是因為某種一些因素一直delay一直delay嘛"},{"start":12933.186,"end":12951.174,"text":"我補充一下第一期其實在處理的會是說公費醫師然後在留任的公費醫師所以主要是以西醫師為主然後經過四年之後其實是做重新的檢討就發現了剛剛劉委員在講的牙醫這邊必須要重新的做一些擴充然後把那個資源補齊"},{"start":12952.495,"end":12975.215,"text":"而不是是說我覺得這是因為政策管中是修正也發現了缺陷然後那這部分的話口腔電腦是這邊已經在去年的年底的時候已經送到行政院這邊然後那我們兩邊會積極的再去問一下國發會可不可以盡快的一個把成他的結果讓我們做讓今年度就能夠實施第二期的部分以上"},{"start":12979.875,"end":12984.859,"text":"好了好了 併動了 併動了謝謝委員還是要經過那個委員會同意 說明報告經同業時等動之動100好第27案動100然後報委員會同意後才得動之好32案 32案"},{"start":13008.239,"end":13031.977,"text":"30萬謝謝劉委員劉委員對於我們焦味煙的一個狀況那對管制這些添加物那論而我們在一年多裡面還沒辦法公告那跟委員報告一下因為這個我們在預告裡面來講那麼大家的意見非常的分歧而且也非常的多總共我們收到的一萬多則那其中包括這些添加物的品項內容還有"},{"start":13034.443,"end":13056.68,"text":"後衛的一個限量等等還有緩衝局後面等等相關的意見非常多所以我們目前在召開任何專家會議那我們會儘速來做後續的行政程序以後來後續公告好就同意他這邊有寫了嘛就上個月內向李偉燕的未緩提出這個說明報告是謝謝委員好謝謝好那"},{"start":13069.153,"end":13080.115,"text":"所以你的結論我多說了啊董...董...沒有啦,不敢動啦改組決議,對啦,改組決議好,那個三十案剛剛沒有宣告三十案,王一平的案子凍結兩百萬嘛我覺得沒錯吧來,四十八"},{"start":13095.017,"end":13112.363,"text":"謝謝劉委員關心劉委員根據我們那個國民營養調查最新的2023的調查報告那也看得出來說糖尿病的發生率逐漸有在增加甚至於年輕化的一個狀況那也跟委員報告那這個部分其實我們也注意得到所以在"},{"start":13113.533,"end":13142.375,"text":"我這兩年裡面先推出代謝政府的管理就是希望能夠解決後續的還沒有進到疾病之前的一些預防跟健康促進的一些政策新年把這個承建的年齡下修到30歲其實也是希望能夠及早發現相關危險或有風險的或是檢查的素質有異常的能夠儘早找出來以後儘早去介入那這目的其實就是在控制希望未來的"},{"start":13143.596,"end":13153.57,"text":"談到邊也好 高血壓 性血管 即便以後都能夠得到一個完整的一個控制所以也跟委員這邊做報告跟說明非常謝謝委員的一個關心"},{"start":13155.253,"end":13178.528,"text":"不是 市長 你是把這個調查的年齡往下是不是不是 這個調查是一年多這樣子 每四年調查一次 對那這一次我們 剛剛委員看到的是發現說我們20歲的這個台南的病人控制上來講有一些稍微高點甚至於說台灣的勝選率都比日本跟韓國 香港來臨近的地方還來得高"},{"start":13183.674,"end":13184.459,"text":"也就是說現在的這種"},{"start":13187.707,"end":13213.644,"text":"這種糖尿病的年齡層一直在下降啦下降有這個趨勢我們也看得到所以我們代謝症候群就從20歲開始索案做管理那郭委員報告我們兩年裡面來講以113年為例的話我們已經索案到29萬多將近30萬那其中有20%的人那因為有代謝症候群的症狀以後經過索案管理以後大概有20%能夠恢復到健康的情況"},{"start":13214.284,"end":13225.292,"text":"所以我們這個給我們未來整體慢性病的控制有很大的信心所以我們今年也把這個成人醫療保健下修到30歲就是能夠及早發現這些有異常的個案20%有點低吧"},{"start":13231.299,"end":13249.536,"text":"以國際上來講大概都是15到16%左右可以逆轉就是說他還沒有進到疾病的時候但是我們那個計畫做出來以後看到我們要計程非常的認真所以我們大概佔了百分之二十可以逆轉那百分之八十七他是有控制所以我們會覺得那個計畫對我們來講非常有信心"},{"start":13252.199,"end":13266.713,"text":"那麥信片做得好,剛剛委員所關心的,我們未來的醫療長照的費用的話,可能就會得到相當好的控制,甚至於不健康移民的一個縮短。對啊,對啊。我不給你3啦,好不好。好,謝謝。改動100啦。"},{"start":13269.035,"end":13288.593,"text":"我們是動200,改動100嘛,然後你提出相關的一些進展的報告,再動之啦沒問題,謝謝,謝謝委員改動100,提出一份報告,經同友使得動之好,48案我們改動100萬,我們會報告同友使得動之50案"},{"start":13292.389,"end":13314.719,"text":"好謝謝劉委員的關心劉委員也看到說我們長期對於回放的問題的預防那麼要看到非常好的成效的確跟委員包括我們18歲以上的成人的這個回放率其實的確是在上升當中那兒童的回放也的確有上升的趨勢所以的話我們未來從今年開始"},{"start":13315.619,"end":13340.067,"text":"我們推動的是前年齡的一個健康生活型態的一個預防包括回胖、運動、營養所以我們在社區裡面有大量的佈置那跟未來的體育部、體育運動部那有相關的一些培養我們所有全國國連的一個全人運動的一個相關的一些計畫那另外就是千年營養的一個照顧"},{"start":13341.827,"end":13367.823,"text":"目前全國大概有114位營養師有70個點我也希望全國368個像這多能夠有營養師的一個幫忙跟協助所以我們逐年希望台灣至少有390位以上的營養師今年度我們希望能夠達到190個營養師的服務希望把營養運動健康能夠帶到我們所有的民眾的身上"},{"start":13370.253,"end":13399.007,"text":"好 謝謝署長謝謝偏遠地區的營養師要優先部署吧是的是的所以改動100啦然後提出書面報告後 經過同意和實的動之好 謝謝委員謝謝好 凍結100萬委員會報告實的動之來 71案71案 也謝謝劉委員剛才跟劉委員做過報告和說明那委員剛才有同意那改"},{"start":13400.688,"end":13422.18,"text":"從刪減的部分改為凍結50萬元那同時提出相關的書面報告那我們也會依照那個委員的要求就未來宣導還有推展費的部分規劃已經執行來切實來提出相關書面報告以上好71案凍結50萬報告後死者凍屍是好謝謝委員76案陳昭志、趙雅"},{"start":13431.718,"end":13439.481,"text":"那就不再處理,還是動?解凍了解凍了啊?改什麼?請他們說明,他們有"},{"start":13455.041,"end":13474.145,"text":"76案陳委員跟我們是併案嘛併案然後一樣動50嘛對動50萬元就請你把科目自行調整他們報告會提供出來對因為剛剛沒有提76跟78是併案的對併案對謝謝委員好謝謝趙委我沒有跑掉好謝謝感恩好我們76跟78併案凍結50萬然後報告後的動作"},{"start":13484.268,"end":13494.416,"text":"第一案 要求衛生福利部加強督導所屬醫院研磨改善以提升營運績效"},{"start":13507.571,"end":13525.081,"text":"第二案 並提供民眾完善醫療照護品質 原則要求衛生福利部於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告第四至第六案 衛生福利部於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告"},{"start":13526.181,"end":13532.768,"text":"第12案刪除凍結數第13案刪除凍結數專案改書面報告第15案刪除凍結數一個月改為三個月專案改為書面報告第20案刪除文字中央健康保險署並將解決對策改為書面報告第23案"},{"start":13544.259,"end":13552.205,"text":"以確保預防接種受害救濟業務之運行並於一個月內提交報告第29案 刪除凍結數 二個月改為三個月第33案 刪除凍結數及末二劇第34案 刪除凍結數專案改為書面報告第35案 要求衛福部於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出無惡手煙傷害政策"},{"start":13569.238,"end":13591.926,"text":"具體方案書面報告第36案刪除凍結數書面報告前面增列陰害防治策略等文字第37案要求衛生福利部於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出陰害防治策略書面報告第38案要求衛生福利部於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出檢討改善書面報告"},{"start":13593.727,"end":13609.432,"text":"第四十案 要求衛生福利部國民健康署於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出戒菸服務推動情形書面報告第四十一案 要求國健署於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出檢討報告"},{"start":13610.632,"end":13625.677,"text":"第44案刪除凍結數與衛福部後面增列於三個月內並修正默劇為向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告第45案修正國健署為衛生福利部並修正計劃為支書面報告"},{"start":13628.018,"end":13654.326,"text":"第46案衛生福利部會同國健署就6歲至12歲兒童之口腔預防保健例如減糖策略應積極推行兒童口腔保健工作維護兒童口腔健康第51案原要求衛生福利部於三個月內向立法院針對原民部落及學童等族群提出持續推動健康體位之書面報告第53案"},{"start":13655.686,"end":13661.671,"text":"原國民健康署應強化推廣癌症篩檢重要性並提升篩檢服務量第54案國民健康署應強化推廣癌症篩檢並提升篩檢服務量第55案刪除凍結數一個月改為三個月第56案原衛生福利部應強化推廣癌症篩檢重要性並提升篩檢服務量"},{"start":13679.306,"end":13702.263,"text":"第60案有架空無法確定類別之餘原要求衛生福利部疾病管制署於2個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告第61案請衛生福利部持續視疫苗基金裁員逐年就疾病負擔國內流病趨勢疫苗接種成本效益等進行檢視提案ACIP研議評估導入並於2個月內提出書面報告第62案"},{"start":13708.727,"end":13733.012,"text":"要求衛福部確實積極運用各管道推廣宣傳提升國人疫苗接種意願提升國人免疫保護力第64案修正末段手續為針對COVID-19疫苗第65案刪除凍結數專案改為書面報告第66案要求衛生福利部於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告67及68案刪除凍結數"},{"start":13737.622,"end":13752.698,"text":"第七十案 要求衛福部向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告第八十案 刪除凍結數 長期照顧私改為社會及家庭署第八十一案 要求衛生福利部持續健全施治照護服務體系"},{"start":13754.54,"end":13778.212,"text":"並以限期於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會繳交書面報告第83案要求衛生福利部限期於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會繳交114年起宣導經費運用規劃及目標之書面報告第84案要求衛生福利部限期於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會繳交"},{"start":13780.033,"end":13799.43,"text":"測進書面報告 含達成率未達八成之四個縣市第八十九案 提升陽性追蹤之計畫執行方式及成果之書面報告第九十一案 修正國健署為衛生福利部第九十三案 原決議限期一個月內向立法院社會福利集會生環境委員會提交長照財務規劃之書面報告"},{"start":13801.812,"end":13829.02,"text":"第七案要求管制藥品製藥工廠於一個月內向本院提交書面報告第十一案於二星期內提出書面報告第十七案於一個月內提出書面報告第二十六案要求衛生服務部於三個月內提供預期成效書面報告第三十一案"},{"start":13830.847,"end":13856.543,"text":"請國民健康署針對菸害防治宣導成效於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告第四十三案請衛生福利部於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告第四十七案要求衛生福利部應積極推動兒童口腔保健"},{"start":13857.236,"end":13868.936,"text":"加強兒童發展篩檢及後續通報轉介服務維護兒童健康第69案要求衛生福利部向本委員會提交書面報告宣讀完畢"},{"start":13873.669,"end":13902.112,"text":"好我們做以下決議第一中華民國114年中央政府總預算案互儲單位預算關於衛生福利部主管預算業餘審查完畢提報院會討論院會討論前需交黨團協商本次會議議事錄授權由主席核定或確定"},{"start":13904.025,"end":13906.727,"text":"本次的會議到此結束 散會"},{"start":13925.219,"end":13953.784,"text":"要不要簽案啊對 是動議百萬啊他要要改文字啊文字要不要先留一下好不好 抱歉抱歉來 文記在這裡來等一下 等一下 再 再不好意思 不好意思因為他有修改文字我回答啦"},{"start":13964.741,"end":13967.684,"text":"第87案,兼此建議凍結500萬元,在"},{"start":13985.571,"end":14000.798,"text":"在衛福部召集長期照顧師、社會及家庭署、護理及健康照護師、中央健康保險署、舊住宿機構內留置移位館人數進行"},{"start":14005.801,"end":14015.139,"text":"進行盤整並於一個月內提供人數及占比,且於三個月內針對上述問題提出改善後"},{"start":14019.237,"end":14037.173,"text":"改善書面 改善計畫書面報告並經同意後此的通知宣讀完畢我補充一下部長這個沒有辦法長照私自己一個單元去處理啦所以還是要衛生部來主導啦來主責啦所以我這邊其實他是補充相關的一些文字其實應該是倒數"},{"start":14038.57,"end":14063.766,"text":"就我的文字倒數這個第四行建請衛福部應該就移除鼻液管之教育訓練強化相關教育訓練課程並研議未來出入型機構就移除鼻液管的相關措施之獎勵機制以達長照體系對於這個移除鼻液管之正確認知與積極的措施保障失能者的自信與尊嚴"},{"start":14065.307,"end":14086.383,"text":"然後後面才是他練的那一段這樣啦好 謝謝好 這樣大家有沒有意見沒有齁那這個補充說明就照劉建國委員的意旨好 我們上位 謝謝謝謝主席 主席英明感動了"},{"start":14092.092,"end":14093.513,"text":"這個就改...這個就改...這個就改...這個就改..."},{"start":14119.554,"end":14123.077,"text":"不過這個就是因為治療JI目前是"}]}},{"id":"158897","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158897","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1a49ec9ce63dcd20ef5a45ebd5c2e75318b9af4de1086944f18053b69fbe3a03365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:32:23 - 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269.371,"text":"算是核心地帶 其實我們的國家應該做好緊急並推的規劃很好 我希望能不能夠由國發會跟經濟部告訴我一下我們對於國內的企業有沒有類似相關的緊急應變計畫然後提供給本席 再做一個參考因為這屬於國安 我們再來恰好那國發會請劉部 那經濟部先請回我想請那個財政部以及數位產業署來 財政部理事長數位產業署"},{"start":273.075,"end":299.27,"text":"市委好好 三位好市長 我想今天我要問的是有關行動支付的普及率行動支付在國發會主政然後數位產業署在推動現在目標本來是在106年當時的行政院長賴清德說114年要達到90請問一下現在的普及率有多少"},{"start":300.98,"end":318.287,"text":"我們在財政部這部分我們推動的主要是對小規模企業的部分你們是來解說嗎 來數位產業署你們大概現在普及率是多少我們大概在112年的時候普及率大概是80.7%所以110年要達到90%做不做得到"},{"start":321.168,"end":338.794,"text":"我們目前在努力當中但是今天請財政部的原因就是因為我們這個相關的優惠措施到今年的年底也就是說它還沒有達到90%可是你的優惠措施到年底可能就結束了所以我的意思是說行動支付重不重要 重要"},{"start":339.574,"end":364.911,"text":"我們希望小規模的營業人能夠進來然後給他的優惠但是好像還是有一些成效不彰的狀況將近80%是做不到這個部分有沒有檢討過我想這個部分因為我們目前因為時間還沒到我們還是請我們各地區國稅局很努力的在跟我們是重點是來所以國發會數位產業署跟財政部我覺得這件事情是國家的重大政策"},{"start":365.771,"end":384.861,"text":"它現在只有80我們其實到很多國家去已經不太需要用到現金了在台灣很多地方可能還是需要用到現金可能這個部分的行動支付的推廣還有小規模營業人的部分我希望能夠這個政策可能要持續下去直到百分之百為止"},{"start":386.002,"end":414.282,"text":"可以嗎我們會跟數位部還有國發會一起來考量就是推動目標至少90%以上而不能只是以90%為目標第二個如果可以的話中小型的規模的營業人給他租稅的優惠可能讓他願意參加所謂的行動支付會更有誘因會配合相關部會不管怎麼樣我希望財政部一個月之內我們跟大家討論一下接下去的評估方案好嗎因為到年底要結束了"},{"start":414.542,"end":432.073,"text":"那年底以後呢 怎麼辦我們財政部負責部分由我們來那個一個月內 那就請數位常驗署跟國發會以及財政部一起來把這個政策接下去的後續的作業方式提供相關的報告給本席好謝謝好謝謝請回座"}]}},{"id":"158896","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158896","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1a0e692a70ddca92d55a45ebd5c2e75318b9af4de1086944f14f59cd66632241b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:27:08 - 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當然立法院就是有幫學校教一些東西我們還是都要努力的來達成那是因為這個原因所以沒有沒有 不是不是可是郭志輝講的啊沒有沒有 這個人因素那你打臉他沒有沒有那我想問一下齁我先問一下因為我看經濟部的那個記者會"},{"start":57.745,"end":74.006,"text":"部長有特別提到有關於台積電的因為以前大家經濟部的政策是說那台積電如果要到其他國家投資的話要落後兩世代就N加2政策嘛但是郭部長改口了他的說法是說以後沒有所謂的N加2了啦只要企業有賺錢就去啦"},{"start":74.98,"end":95.533,"text":"他說政府的目的就是讓企業可以賺錢換言之以後台積電是不是他二奈米或幾萬以先進製程想要去哪個國家經濟部投審會全部都放行是這個意思嗎這我們還是要有一個審查機制在啦沒有他的態度是說沒有N加2嘛所以以後就不是以N加2當作一個標準的我們還是要經過計審會跟"},{"start":97.154,"end":117.96,"text":"跟委員會這個兩個門檻來那是不是只要是企業有賺錢就是審查標準就是看企業有沒有賺錢沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有沒有"},{"start":118.08,"end":144.807,"text":"沒有沒有然後他還講說像那個美國台積電啊要派那個最好的大將台積電最好的大將王老闆去美國才做得起來所以如果說我們沒有這個N加2的這樣子一個政策台積電想賺錢就可以去的話那台積電一個很好的大將通通到各國去了所以這是我們擔心的嘛因為台積電在台灣算是一個非常賺錢的公司各位朋友我們遊戲規則現在還在還在還是要按照遊戲規則不是他講的那樣啦齁"},{"start":147.059,"end":173.874,"text":"然後那再請教一下那個輝達現在亞洲總部已經確定在台北了嘛對不對這個要由他公佈啦因為劉靜清已經公佈了啦劉靜清國發會主委已經公佈了我想問一下因為還是你們郭部長啦之前都一帶風向說好像輝達的亞洲總部不會在台北大家都猜錯為什麼故意又要去講這個東西真的很怪"},{"start":175.578,"end":190.017,"text":"好啦 不會為難你啦 對 不會為難你對 不會為難你免得你又講得跟他不一樣那我想關心一下那個水費因為我們現在對於水價調整方案我們看不懂你知道之前講是說自來水公司要調漲水價然後一次要漲四成"},{"start":190.816,"end":216.071,"text":"那坦白說啦水價如果說三十幾年沒漲的話你要漲一點大家我覺得都是可以接受啦但是一下漲到四成漲這麼多我覺得大家都會擔心會不會引起比如說民生的問題或者是物價通膨的問題那現在感覺又改口了又說沒有這個規劃說呢沒有水價漲四成的規劃然後計算合理水價也不代表漲價"},{"start":217.771,"end":237.468,"text":"我真的看不懂然後再來就是講說如果要調整方案的話是不是採取分級銷售機制來落實照顧民生我先講第一件事情因為物價調漲這個東西非常敏感你們一講話很多很多比如說店家什麼他們會預先漲價他說我要因應之後水價漲價我要預先漲價"},{"start":240.35,"end":255.914,"text":"物價一漲就跌不下來所以講這種漲價事情要非常謹慎小心那怎麼可能先拋出一個四成以後又說沒有了我們要有什麼分級銷售機制什麼叫分級銷售機制我首先要澄清跟委員澄清沒有"},{"start":257.235,"end":274.951,"text":"經濟部從來沒有拋出說要漲四成的這樣的一個那為什麼會有這個消息出來這個是外面自己去算說如果是31年沒漲然後要調到什麼機制他們自己去算出來絕對沒有這一回事所以不是你們講的不是那如果說好那什麼是因為那個要去調漲的話什麼是分級銷售機制來來來"},{"start":280.354,"end":304.96,"text":"因為這個東西也不是我們的資料也不是你講的我們正在規劃他上面寫說經濟部重申耶他說例如是否採取分級銷售機制那個只是說如果是有的話可以朝這個方向但是現在還在規劃我們三個月內會提出一個規劃方向而且這個規劃有一個機制他要調一個機制不是說外面講的說我調就調而且會考慮到民生的這些項目謝謝"},{"start":308.178,"end":308.963,"text":"好 請回座"}]}},{"id":"158898","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158898","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1acd6af6a604b43e901cb09e2058dd4a02b9af4de1086944f16df6a493928834075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:20:51 - 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謝謝 有請副秘書長副秘"},{"start":20.644,"end":36.363,"text":"副秘書長今天辛苦了從早上到現在其實我們今天私委會大概是全院裡面最認真的委員會都一直還有在進行相關的專案報告事實上從"},{"start":39.199,"end":57.074,"text":"這一兩個禮拜大家其實很關心的就是行政院的復議案還有民進黨委員會不會利用法律還沒有生效之前就提起釋憲案及這個暫時處分案那麼剛剛其實吳宗憲委員已經有問過了然後我也看了這個新聞"},{"start":57.754,"end":69.869,"text":"那麼應該就是民進黨黨團已經正式的據狀提出申請釋憲及暫時處分那麼我想請教一下就是這個案件是有民進黨委員親送的嗎還是誰去遞狀的"},{"start":75.616,"end":103.437,"text":"那個報案委員因為從早上我們都一直在那個立法院那我問一下我們廳長目前得到的那個資訊廳長知道是有委員親送的嗎親自送件還是由誰去送的這個我們不清楚好那麼當然剛剛莊元雄委員他們是認為說在法律未生效之前民進黨就是立法委員他是有"},{"start":105.578,"end":121.468,"text":"權利可以去申請釋憲的那麼最後的關鍵點當然還是在憲法法庭大法官要不要受理這個釋憲案並且做成這個暫時處分的裁定那麼事實上我們知道"},{"start":122.933,"end":144.025,"text":"在這裡我要想請教這個副秘書長據您了解就是從我們行限以來有沒有曾經大法官是就哪一個釋憲案是針對還沒有生效的法律來進行釋憲的或是做成暫時處分案的這部分資料我是不是請蘇業廷廷長來回答好 是 請廷長"},{"start":145.692,"end":172.688,"text":"是先回答委員如果是有關於暫時處分的話目前准許的新救治加起來是四件那其實都是針對已經生效的法律已經生效的法律那如果是針對釋憲案或者是憲法訴訟在新制沒有但在救治如果我們討論憲法一解釋類型的話就是在救治這個類型下面確實過去曾經在立法院在審議法案中就適用憲法的一有申請過大法官做成解釋"},{"start":173.788,"end":179.533,"text":"不過剛剛我回答沈委員的時候也有提到那在新制沒有這樣的一個解釋類型所以在新制沒有那麼在舊制的話可能曾經有過一件可是呢在這個一件的這個案子裡面後來因為憲法訴訟法修法"},{"start":191.173,"end":218.393,"text":"憲法訴訟法修法然後也特別的將所謂的憲法一役的事件憲法一役的案子可以作為憲法訴訟標的這個類型把它刪除掉了所以就是說在我們憲法訴訟法現在第一條裡面所名列的六款的訴訟類型裡面其實是不包含我們現在講的所謂預防性的不作為訴訟或預防性訴訟"},{"start":219.96,"end":244.953,"text":"那麼這是憲訴法裡面很清楚的規定我想副秘書長跟廳長應該都很清楚知道憲法訴訟法跟行政訴訟法和民事訴訟法這是一個完全不同的訴訟法規那麼彼此是不是可以互相的援引甚至類推適用憲法訴訟法又再類推適用到民事訴訟法或行政訴訟法的規定請問你們覺得適合嗎"},{"start":249.301,"end":263.82,"text":"我們講這個我可以說明嗎是跟我們說明那因為憲法訴訟法在第46條它確實有一個可以明文在性質不抵觸的情況下明文准用行政訴訟法那行政訴訟法因為它有"},{"start":264.501,"end":280.126,"text":"規定的部分很多都可以準用民事訴訟法所以純從法理上來看的話確實在憲法訴訟的案件裡面如果大法官在個案認為性質不抵觸的話有些事項是可以透過準用行政訴訟法甚至有可能再準用民事訴訟法"},{"start":285.43,"end":302.486,"text":"其實在憲法訴訟法裡面它確實是有規定有一些條文它是可以去准用行政訴訟法的規定可是這個可以一再的擴大那個准用的概念嗎然後從憲法訴訟法准用行政訴訟法行政訴訟法又准用到民事訴訟法我認為這樣子的一個解釋"},{"start":306.77,"end":327.532,"text":"已經是超越我們原來憲法訴訟法裡面的相關的規定立法者並沒有授權憲法法庭有這麼大的解釋權可以去准用或是類推適用其他的法規那麼本席想要講的就是說其實從許中立院長"},{"start":329.454,"end":334,"text":"當時他主張司法積極主義認為說這個大法官可能在很多的涉及到法規的解釋上面可以更積極的更大膽的作為但是這個情況其實也構成了後來"},{"start":346.355,"end":364.285,"text":"被很多法律界的專家學者們批評現在大法官造法的問題很嚴重從憲判制8號到憲判制9號一個是十字廢紙判決跟國會改革法案裡面其實都可以看到大法官已經從司法積極主義進階成為司法激進主義了"},{"start":369.648,"end":389.105,"text":"大法官其實本來應該是作為最後的手段他應該要這個司法要節制啊可是在這幾個判決裡面甚至在先前有好幾個憲法判決裡面其實都已經看到大法官他已經積極太過於介入整個立法裁量的空間"},{"start":391.122,"end":414.358,"text":"這簡直是這根本就是當成是立法者的這個太上皇了然後指導立法機關如何的去立法那甚至這個不應該是屬於立法不應該是屬於司法憲法裁判裡面的應該解釋的這個項目那麼大法官也都積極的介入我認為其實這是一個很危險的"},{"start":416.772,"end":441.297,"text":"很危險的一個情況我們在過去可能在我們的法治還不是很安定很競權的時候大法官能夠展現相當程度的司法積極主義是沒有問題的可是當他已經逾越了作為一個司法者他的這個要謹守的司法自治這樣的原則之後他所造成的後果是非常非常危險的"},{"start":443.431,"end":465.379,"text":"當然釋憲權這個是立法委員的權利人民的權利 機關的權利可是關鍵就在於說該不該受理該不該進而做成憲法判決或者是暫時處分的裁定這個關鍵點還是在大法官那我現在想要進一步的再請教"},{"start":472.407,"end":490.657,"text":"副秘書長的就是我們知道其實上禮拜因為行政院他有提出復議了那麼他們這個復議理由洋洒洒的就認為這個行政院認為治案難行我想請教就是當時他們提出的復議案到底有沒有跟司法院事前有進行討論"},{"start":492.061,"end":500.067,"text":"這部分並沒有對 完全沒有接觸所以所謂的摯愛難行基本上行政院他自己認為限訴法的通過可能會摯愛難行"},{"start":502.465,"end":522.439,"text":"這部分我們不便表示評論好但是司法院基本上是並沒有參與這個復議案的這個這個理由的這個撰寫好那麼我想另外我要問的就是說其實在我們這次審查限訴法的過程當中"},{"start":523.918,"end":544.091,"text":"本期是當時在第一會期跟第二會期都有提出限訴法的草案可是我自始至終我沒有看到司法院對這兩個法案有提出任何的對案頂多是在進行專案報告時候認為可能會造成這個憲法法庭有一些這個"},{"start":546.176,"end":569.184,"text":"這個可能又回到過去的體制可能會覺得說有不太適合執行執法就是在憲法法庭裁判的時候可能會造成某種程度的困難度那麼可是如果說限訴法對於憲法法庭對司法院是這麼重要的話為什麼在當時這個法案審查過程當中司法院卻沒有提出對案是不是司法院消極怠惰"},{"start":573.103,"end":592.492,"text":"本院那個一貫的立場呢是認為當時就是修法前的那個憲法訴訟法呢並沒有至愛難行就是那個法條事實上是運作非常順暢的所以本院是建議不要修法因此沒有提出對案好所以呢就是你們都認為說這個司法院的立場認為原來性訴法都沒有任何問題運作非常適合"},{"start":597.975,"end":621.229,"text":"那麼但是現在就是當立法委員他代表後面的背後的民意然後我們也看到了很多的法律學者認為之前的限訴法就是出現了大的問題變成少數的大法官就可以做成憲法裁判而你們也知道其實我們這個工黨的委員在這個案子上面也非常的重視也認為這個必須要修改"},{"start":621.929,"end":640.492,"text":"可是如果說你們當時就看到或是有發現有一些問題的時候你們沒有積極的去提出對岸我覺得這就是一個司法太過於消極了你們也可以提出你們的看法哪個地方其實可以再斟酌再修正但是卻都沒有"},{"start":641.273,"end":666.898,"text":"這樣做等到我們法律案通過之後那麼現在看起來反正就是大法官他按受理就受理那他這個要怎麼樣做成決定就全部都由大法官去決定我剛剛還聽到周睿雄委員他提出一個很有趣的一個看法他認為說這個憲法訴訟法因為它主要是規範的是大法官所以規範的是司法院所以司法院院長"},{"start":668.283,"end":691.48,"text":"應該要代表司法院要提起憲法訴訟只要司法院院長迴避就好請問副秘書長跟廳長你們同意這樣子的看法嗎我們尊重莊委員的說法司法院未來會不會提釋憲呢這個我沒有辦法代表院長發言如果院長真的提釋憲的話所以按照莊銳雄委員的意見他就要迴避對不對"},{"start":694.525,"end":717.997,"text":"如果不是法定迴避是有 而院長如果有自行迴避的話由全體大法官決定是否迴避所以大法官可以不迴避 司法院院長提出釋憲案也可以不迴避我現在要講的就是憲法訴訟法它本來就是在規範憲法法庭審理程序的一個這次的修法它是規範憲法法庭的審理程序"},{"start":718.917,"end":734.156,"text":"它基本上就是一個涉及大法官自己的我們所謂的涉及法案在這個涉及法案當中大法官如果說還可以求員監裁判自己針對這個憲法訴訟法去做出裁判"},{"start":735.197,"end":748.294,"text":"宣告這個修法是違憲的或者是說做成這個凍結憲法訴訟法的這樣的一個裁定我認為是極為不妥的大法官全體難道不應該迴避嗎這就是規範他們自己啊你們的看法呢"},{"start":757.639,"end":772.593,"text":"跟涉及事務有關的部分其實如果我們以過去的4-601號有關於大法官被刪除專業家籍那當時這個也是大法官的涉及事務那確實外界也有在討論到底大法官要不要迴避"},{"start":773.194,"end":798.676,"text":"那這個部分後來大法官在他解釋理由書裡面有很清楚的說明那其實所有的國家的憲政爭議那最後能夠做出最後一錘定音的答案在我國的憲法體制設計上就是大法官所以遇到任何憲政問題大法官遇到無可迴避的時候仍然應該與裁判這就是現在司法公信力為什麼蕩然無存的一個很重要的原因"},{"start":799.773,"end":825.902,"text":"明明憲法訴訟法它就涉及到整個憲法法庭的組織運作大法官的組成這個基本上就很典型就是由立法者他們可以就這樣子的一個組織架構去進行這個相關的立法的規範可是呢現在大法官只要是不符合這個司法院自己提出來的法案那麼只要是立法"},{"start":826.562,"end":846.722,"text":"委員立法院所通過的跟憲法訴訟法相關的規定就認為這個是違憲的規定那麼從司法院之前的報告然後到乃至於現在看到民進黨委員還有賴政府他們的見解幾乎都是如此這個基本上已經是嚴重的侵犯到立法的裁量權"},{"start":848.287,"end":875.017,"text":"那麼就大法官的這個審理的程序標準是不是要拉高門檻要不要拉高我們在先前已經非常多次的場合裡面就講這跟西方國家的門檻是接近的我們甚至都還沒有德國、法國、韓國這些門檻高我們這次還後來是採取了一個比較中高度門檻的這個捷克的法制"},{"start":876.485,"end":896.71,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下如果說司法院還真的自己提起釋憲司法院院長還可以自己說他要參與審判那我真的認為整個的憲法法庭真的會讓人家瞧不起"},{"start":899.212,"end":913.099,"text":"大法官的公信力會蕩然無存這個案子是一個非常指標性的案子全民都在看憲法法庭會怎麼做我們來看一下在昨天的聯合報"},{"start":914.662,"end":937.212,"text":"上面其實有兩位我們在法學和實務界的一個重量級的學者一位是前司法院副院長蘇永青蘇老師還有另外一位是董寶成董老師看看人家多麼的語重心長在呼籲司法院在呼籲憲法法庭"},{"start":943.359,"end":968.221,"text":"不要這個不要冒進啊大法官不要冒進陷入整個政治鬥爭之中其實我看了這兩篇教授的文章我感觸很多就是曾幾何時大法官竟然成為全民的公敵"},{"start":970.08,"end":985.659,"text":"大家知道嗎現在人民已經不相信大法官了不相信大法官會做成公正的裁判看看我們現在到目前為止憲法法庭受理的477件人民的事件案件當中"},{"start":986.807,"end":1003.618,"text":"這些案子大法官有積極的去審理嗎 沒有只要是這個政府行政院提起的事件案絕對第一優先先審然後拖了這個三個月半年之後做出這個判決有贏得人民的掌聲嗎也沒有啊"},{"start":1006.892,"end":1032.842,"text":"反而还引起大家对于大法官这个他是否公平公正能够独立的裁判能够超越政治的这裁判都起了很大的质疑回到上一页看看苏永青老师怎么说吧对苏永青老师说希望行政院不要把宪法法庭当工具"},{"start":1034.608,"end":1060.468,"text":"也一再強調在大法官在這次憲法訴訟法的修正過程當中當時的修法理由就很清楚的把憲法一一的審查程序就刪除了早就不在現在的憲法訴訟法裡面了也就是不會針對所謂憲法一的案子去進行去進行審理它已經不是屬於市格的這個憲法訴訟標的"},{"start":1067.106,"end":1094.468,"text":"講到這裡我其實很感慨就是明明司法機關就應該要了解整個憲政權力分立原則要知道司法的最後性司法機關的節制更要尊重立法形成自由尊重立法者的立法權對不對這是在不得已的情況之下真的窮盡了其他的解釋還是認為說"},{"start":1097.487,"end":1116.313,"text":"這個大法官還是認為說立法者所定的法律是有問題的才能宣告違憲啊所以為什麼我們一直在強調所謂的核限性解釋說也就是只要針對我們的法律裡面有任何一個理由是可以支持這個法律是核限的大法官就要採那個理由"},{"start":1117.574,"end":1144.157,"text":"可是在上次我們的國會改革釋憲案裡面完全沒有看到大法官是基於過去上來解釋的一貫性的原則合憲性解釋原則來進行解釋只要他們想怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋這個已經是讓很多的憲法學者研究憲法訴訟的學者們都認為大法官是怎麼了"},{"start":1146.73,"end":1168.127,"text":"現在真的是完全不見大法官的風骨向政治靠攏這是極其可悲的事情話說回來這次的憲法訴訟法修正通過之後雖然我們明定大法官出席的人數要有10人"},{"start":1170.805,"end":1183.469,"text":"那麼眼前當然現在總統還沒有正式的公佈這個法律這個法律如果一旦公佈之後請問大法官是不是真的沒有其他事可做了嗎"},{"start":1186.833,"end":1213.453,"text":"跟委員說明 如同我剛剛跟其他委員所說明的就是有關於受理案件或者統一解釋法律命令這個部分因為現行規定並沒有被修正所以我們目前仍然會持續以三個審查庭來進行案件受理與否的審查那如果有統一解釋法律命令的部分那也可以在目前的人數下做決定那至於其他的案件類型能不能運作這是屬於審判事項 我們就不便表示意見"},{"start":1214.434,"end":1221.017,"text":"依照我們現在憲法訴訟法新修正過的法案大概就是要做成實體判決還有宣告法律違憲然後暫時處分等等這些類型才需要這個要有一定的出席人數的門檻還有做成憲法裁判或是裁定的這個門檻所以代表大法官他還是可以有很多的事情是做的並不是說是完全憲法法庭就被癱瘓"},{"start":1243.407,"end":1261.607,"text":"我想今天已經有很多委員其實也不斷的在重申講憲法法庭癱瘓的這個用語是很惡劣的憲法訴訟法的修正最重要的就是要讓整個的憲法的審理程序更加嚴謹那麼為什麼這個"},{"start":1265.111,"end":1290.058,"text":"我們只要求各級法院的法官在審理程序的時候要重視程序正義那大法官既然釋憲的時候就可以不重視程序正義不重視程序的合法性 既然已經要憲法訴訟法通過就是十個人 最少的出席人數就是十個人那宣告法律違憲就是九個人 就按照那樣的程序去做這有什麼至暗難行的地方"},{"start":1292.25,"end":1317.586,"text":"我實在是不懂就是大法官憲法法庭在想什麼我真的是希望他們不要把最後自己的一點尊嚴或最後一點的公信力會毀在這次的民進黨委員所提出來的事先案上面不該受理的就不該受理的該盡速駁回的就盡速駁回"},{"start":1318.737,"end":1347.234,"text":"不要隨著執政黨隨機起舞這個是我最後對司法院對憲法法庭的呼籲希望副秘書長還有廳長可以帶回去給代理院長知悉那麼司法院還是應該要謹守自己的角色"},{"start":1348.621,"end":1364.208,"text":"如果真的如莊瑞雄委員所說的自己提起視線我認為這是會一笑大方而且不僅如此還會被全民看不起以上 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非常感謝今天召委排審我覺得這個非常接地氣感謝盧明哲委員我想近年來大家都知道這個日益猖獗這個假車牌事件已經造成了社會危害治安的一個重要的一個缺失尤其可以看到這個假車牌被網路上說是藝術品"},{"start":21.235,"end":38.3,"text":"當然今天我們要探討的是所謂的道家條例的一個修改當然我們也希望未來不管是在源頭的管制因為境外輸入這個關卡我們一定要在海關的部分加強檢驗但是今天所提到的修法的部分我們希望針對駕駛人懸掛偽造車牌的一個行為將罰還由現行的新台幣3600元以上"},{"start":44.462,"end":64.1,"text":"一萬零八百元以下調整為新台幣一萬五千元以上五萬元以下以提升違規的一個成本達到更強的嚇阻效果當然我們希望能夠更加的提升有的人說要十萬以上那我們也希望今天透過探討大家來了解到底怎麼樣的一個方式可以更加的嚇阻這樣的行為"},{"start":64.961,"end":86.418,"text":"另外針對違反第一項第三款的行為新增規定處以新台幣10萬元罰款並沒入違規車輛藉此彰顯法規的一個危言杜絕惡意的一個違法我想修法都是透過加重處罰以及嚴格執行希望能夠提升整體的一個效力讓法律能夠來真正執行到正義"},{"start":87.319,"end":110.83,"text":"減少偽造車牌的行為帶來治安跟交通的隱憂同時藉由規範的強化保障我們民眾的行車安全維護公共利益我們希望能夠更快加速的進行透過修法來建構更完善的車輛管理以及執法制度打造更好的一個環境我們也再一次感謝昭緯以及我們所有朝野的立委大家一起來努力也希望交通部能夠更加積極"}]}},{"id":"158862","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158862","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1afeabfdeae68b750e5a45ebd5c2e753183641ee913381949d10cd3a5187eac2bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:10:42 - 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GPT需要超过3万颗的绘图处理器OpenAI的执行长Sam Altman也说Chad GPT-4的训练成本是1亿美元Enthropic的联合创始人Amedei目前也说开发AI模型要花费10亿美元以上"},{"start":62.99,"end":90.7,"text":"估計2025年2026年2027年訓練的成本甚至會膨脹到100億美元甚至1000億美元相較於本席的版本行政院的版本僅將支出底稅的上限由10億元台幣提高至18億元新台幣也就是6000萬美元跟我們剛剛所聽到這些10億美元100億美元甚至1000億美元比起來有著不小的落差"},{"start":91.36,"end":118.26,"text":"那么也就跟未来的这个AI训练还有相关的产业的实际支出呢有非常显著的距离所以呢希望今天列席的部位代表以及在场的各位委员都能够支持本席的版本让我们为AI产业的发展做最强而有力的推进器那另外一方面呢本席的版本也提到关于产业创新技术相关技术的人才培育支出应该要给予盈利事业所得税的抵减"},{"start":120.322,"end":146.901,"text":"本席的版本特别强调有关巨量资料人工智慧物联网机器人以及区块链等等相关的领域相关的训练活动以及人行机器人等等新兴的产业这些支出的成本都希望政府给予相关的租税优惠这和现行条文第十条局限于研究发展相关支出才能抵税是有所不同的人才的培育相关训练所涵盖的样态更广"},{"start":147.401,"end":174.182,"text":"我們的AI內閣呢喊出五年要培育出20萬名的AI人才經濟部也是主責單位之一如果公有口號而不能給予產業實質的誘因那麼五年一到政府的20萬名AI人才恐怕淪為空頭支票經濟部的郭部長還有相關的部會官員如果決心要培育AI人才希望能夠大膽勇敢支持本席的版本"},{"start":175.123,"end":189.356,"text":"我想前面讲的租税优惠希望能够将天花板提高而人才的培育也应该做相关的租税抵减我们一起为提升台湾AI产业的竞争力而努力希望很请支持谢谢好"}]}},{"id":"158881","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158881","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1aac6a4e4733e628ef1cb09e2058dd4a024204766f4a2623bd064411f9f51987335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:03:02 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自憲法法庭111年1月1日上路到113年底 申請案件一共是7254件 其中7127件是人民申請 大概是98.25"},{"start":46.758,"end":64.306,"text":"行政院舉這個數字我覺得他想要講的東西很清楚啦他說憲法法庭停擺對人民影響很大七千件的案子看起來很多但我想請教一下司法院人民向憲法法庭申請的終結案件裡面受理的比例大概是多少這七千件我告訴你啦好不好這也是你們給我的數字"},{"start":73.078,"end":94.951,"text":"總共有6716件終結其中只有211件有受理判決36件實體裁定1件並案174件換句話說受理率就是3.14%直接被裁定的不受理的高達6307件人民申請案佔98%但人民申請案有94%是不受理的"},{"start":99.79,"end":116.272,"text":"那我再想請教 機關申請案終結實踐裡面有幾件受理您不知道我再告訴你 數字錯誤再更正我 也是你們提供的八件啦 受理率高達八成我要跟大家講"},{"start":117.557,"end":132.291,"text":"我們民進黨卓榮泰喜歡拿人民的申請件數99%來說憲法法庭是人民的守護神但從數據來看他打槍94%的人民不受理而對於機關申請就80%就是受理"},{"start":135.033,"end":162.353,"text":"這樣差距我覺得99%的人民有沒有辦法接受為什麼憲法法庭這個時候在他們來講好像非常的急迫需要做所謂的預防性的救濟然後要開一個巧門來去針對立法院通過的法律想要來搞一個比暫時處分更偉大的暫時處分這我們後面再講就是拿人民當藉口那接下來我再想請教一下我們副秘書長"},{"start":164.585,"end":174.842,"text":"請問司法院 憲法法庭如果說停擺兩個月會影響到多少件申請案我請那個廳長回答好嗎 可以請"},{"start":177.762,"end":183.246,"text":"因為我們審查庭是如常運作所以有關於不受理的案子我們是可以繼續進行如常運作 我先跟你講 你們有411件還未結的"},{"start":198.072,"end":223.988,"text":"然後呢 受理率3.14%你剛剛講的還可以繼續受理啦總共大概就是13件左右那一般來說這按照過去你們的受理率來看的話有高達386件就是被裁定不受理時間推估的話憲法法庭上路受理的是278件平均每月7.72件而且大部分是病案 有174件是病案所以真正作出判決是36件"},{"start":226.65,"end":248.24,"text":"我這樣數字沒錯吧 判決是51件沒關係 每個月判決大概是一點多案那我要跟你講 你知道按照我們限訴法的新制當大法官的提名沒有被通過的時候 總統要在多少期間內補足提名按照這次的三讀修正條文是兩個月"},{"start":251.077,"end":275.86,"text":"兩個月能夠影響的案件大概三到四案 三到五案啦我剛剛講以受理的情況來講 受理率算進去但這個部分可能還要考慮國會同意的時程沒關係啊 國會同意時程每一個月再加兩個案子嘛 再加兩個案子這是所謂講的影響 好 那接下來我要告訴你我想請教你 你所謂的預防性的救濟 要預防什麼"},{"start":279.238,"end":299.792,"text":"副秘書長 要預防什麼針對我們今天憲法訴訟法通過今天要去採取所謂預防性權力救濟比照預防性權力救濟 是要預防什麼預防那個權力在將來可能受到侵害什麼樣的權力受到侵害啊什麼樣的權力受到侵害 答不出來啊"},{"start":306.087,"end":335.015,"text":"我們今天執政黨今天這個所謂的他愛怎麼樣去決定我們憲政就怎麼決定憲政這個權力受侵害嗎是什麼權力受侵害包委員剛才講的是那個一般的就是因為好啦那我問你下一個問題好了急迫什麼請問急迫什麼我直接幫你講啦民進黨的邏輯就是說憲法法庭會被癱瘓啦要預防憲法法庭被癱瘓啦這政治問題我不為難你不回答啦"},{"start":336.172,"end":362.855,"text":"那我想請問 擊破什麼在擊破什麼 擊破憲法法庭會被癱瘓嘛 對不對我看不到別的理由啊 只有這個理由啊說憲法法庭會被癱瘓 所以要預防被癱瘓啊我還先不講 到底說能不能準用行政訴訟法啦我還先不講這一塊 我只講這個部分他預防所謂憲法法庭被癱瘓那我就要問 擊破性在哪裡"},{"start":364.803,"end":388.943,"text":"剛剛聽長已經回答了先訴法新制總統幾個月內要提出提名單幾個月兩個月兩個月啊那急迫是什麼在下一口就要請教您喔真的那麼急迫的話那我想請教今天劉靜儀大法官的被提名人你總知道是被誰否決的吧被誰否決的"},{"start":393.598,"end":415.975,"text":"被民進黨否決的啊被民進黨否決的啊所以照民進黨那種奇怪的邏輯為了大法官今天不要被癱瘓真的該究責是愛清德啊不是嗎現在大法官現在有剩下多少位大法官在任幾位"},{"start":416.704,"end":441.61,"text":"目前是八位 八位嘛按照新制憲法訴訟法幾位就能開庭審理法案了十位 十位嘛 差幾位兩位 兩位啊你賴清德要嘛就怪賴清德你提名一個連民進黨都沒辦法接受的劉靜儀還是基本要怪就怪民進黨劉靜儀是事任的結果民進黨因為他劉靜儀罵民進黨結果就把他否決掉"},{"start":443.483,"end":460.591,"text":"郵寄一進去 八個就變九個 只剩一個囉 只剩一個囉兩個月提一個我就舉個例子啊 兩個月內如果你提的是宗嘉賓 抱歉我也沒辦法接受 我一定投反對票啊但是如果提你王梅依搞不好我考慮啊 不是嗎"},{"start":462.256,"end":482.001,"text":"我要的不是什麼了不起啦我要的是中立啦只要你做到中立你不要偏頗你有法學素養你的積極資格符合今天大法官提名資格你就有可能通過啊可是今天你要搞到說憲法法庭會被癱瘓你要跟我講有急迫性問題罪魁禍首是誰罪魁禍首是誰你一定答不出來來我們請我們次長來答是國會嗎"},{"start":493.797,"end":508.771,"text":"還是民進黨 民進黨為什麼要把劉靜儀推翻掉你告訴我 你也當過民進黨的黨員啊你代表民進黨參選過立法委員啊你也當過立法委員啊你現在跟我講為什麼民進黨要推翻劉靜儀大法官的任命是在癱瘓大法官嗎這麼急迫欸 兩個月不能等欸你們竟然還把劉靜儀弄掉你民進黨可惡嘛市長我這樣講對不對啊"},{"start":519.997,"end":548.111,"text":"我想這個投票的時候各黨團都有決議啊對啊 非常好就你民進黨有投進去啊所以找藉口找到什麼藉口連什麼預防性救濟都拿出來當藉口你這要預防是預防今天民進黨濫權戴興德獨裁啊這才該預防的啊大法官要不要去預防一下啊你真的講急迫那你就把戴興德抓出來嘛"},{"start":549.246,"end":578.271,"text":"我們慶德總統這麼急迫欸那你好好提名一個人你不要提名到連你民進黨都不能接受的人那今天大法官就過啦 十個人就滿啦就能夠開會啦不是嗎賴慶德今天好好提名好好提名再兩個他要提名七個 只要兩個再兩個兩個月內大法官人數就滿了"},{"start":579.96,"end":600.541,"text":"不是嗎我再請教副秘書長我想請教您我實在是不懂今天這個所謂的到底預防誰 擊破誰是不是預防今天民進黨濫權還是今天擊破賴清德不提四任的大法官人選你等個兩個月 三個月等不及沒辦法等"},{"start":601.65,"end":626.231,"text":"我覺得今天你們大法官如果接受這個所謂預防性的救濟的申請你是瞧不起賴清德你是已經知道賴清德不會提出讓人民接受讓多數民意接受的大法官人選嘛你根本瞧不起所以你才會說今天如果今天我不把這個新的憲法訴訟法推翻的話大法官就會被癱瘓癱瘓不會被癱瘓的怎麼會被癱瘓"},{"start":630.953,"end":659.335,"text":"大法官怎麼會被攤換賴清德再提兩個人 民進黨不要打臉賴清德就結束啦大法官就可以繼續審案啦我就問秘書長嘛如果今天賴清德再提七個人有兩個被同意了 請問大法官能不能開會了其實大法官現在是可以開會 當然只是不能做緊急處分跟所謂不能做違憲的審查而已嘛 對不對不能做違憲判決 以新法來說嘛 對不對"},{"start":661.479,"end":688.002,"text":"那我就問嘛 只要今天兩個月內賴清德提了兩個 只要兩個 七個提兩個是在野黨一起商量 覺得中立不是黨議大法官通過了 請問十個人是不是就滿了符合最低的十個人答對了嘛 就可以開會了嘛沒錯吧 你看我們副部長我跟妳講副部長這種態度就是正確的賴清德趕快提名你啦 好不好"},{"start":688.883,"end":712.403,"text":"真的啊 你不要提名宗家兵 提名你機率大一點那最後我要講什麼 我要講就是今天就像說秘書長 你們司法院曾經考察過傑克的憲法法庭嘛 對不對他們的那個大法官人數多少 幾個15個嘛 他們最低出席人數幾個"},{"start":715.471,"end":730.767,"text":"10個嘛10個嘛然後那個門檻違憲審查門檻幾個9個嘛跟我們現在憲法訴訟法一模一樣你們所考察捷克法院你們的結論是借盡捷克憲法法庭的對不對 沒錯吧你們報告有這樣寫的喔 沒錯吧"},{"start":737.925,"end":764.278,"text":"你上次有來這邊練習耶你的報告有這樣寫你不會不記得吧這記性這樣子不對喔沒錯吧正確用語我沒有辦法記得借盡捷克憲法法庭嘛這個我們那天質詢整天的重點你跟我講現在精確用語你用不出來你把報告調出來那我就要問下一個問題啊那天鍾嘉賓死不肯讓你回答的問題我今天直接問你"},{"start":765.899,"end":790.128,"text":"你講那個捷克有配套嘛對不對是你說兩個月內必須行使同意權嘛對不對行使同意權是今天要投票同意跟不同意嘛對不對兩個月內嘛是這是他們國會的職權對啊但是沒有規定說今天兩個月要投票同意不同意是兩個月內我規定非投同意不可嘛對不對不是吧"},{"start":791.857,"end":818.715,"text":"同意權行使是可投同意可投不同意國會的權利嘛 對不對謝謝你啊那我就要問一件事情如果今天捷克的總統提阿狗阿貓對不對阿槍阿什麼就是一些奇奇怪怪的人提大法官進來然後捷克的國會說不行欸你這樣子提我們真的沒辦法接受欸刷掉結果因為刷掉捷克的憲法法庭剩下八個人"},{"start":820.032,"end":837.463,"text":"這叫癱瘓憲法法庭嗎你認為這個癱瘓責任是算給捷克總統還是算給國會今天如果捷克總統提一個阿狗阿貓就是黨議大法官結果國會說不行我們代表的名義不能接受啊憲法法庭因為不滿十個人照你剛剛講也不能開會嘛 對不對那請問癱瘓責任是國會還是今天總統在捷克來講我告訴你是總統"},{"start":848.945,"end":863.412,"text":"是總統 兩個人你都沒有辦法得到 你提兩個公正的人都做不到同樣的 如果捷克總統補題的人 捷克的法院再同意了兩個他在法庭就能夠開會 有癱瘓問題嗎 沒有癱瘓問題今天我就問副秘書長 我們在憲政設計 大法官是誰提名"},{"start":874.69,"end":897.045,"text":"有總統提名誰同意國會立法委員那為什麼要立法委員同意這是那個權利分立答對了嘛 權利分立嘛我們代表民意嘛我們是人民一票一票選出來的嘛所以我非常反對過去曾有大法官說大法官不用理民意你認為大法官不用理民意嗎不需要嗎"},{"start":899.008,"end":918.761,"text":"大法官是超脫於民意之上 行走在人世間的神嗎 是嗎如果是這樣 這個憲法條例直接廢掉大法官不需要立法院同意要需要立法院同意就是希望說今天大法官不能夠不死人間煙火那同樣回到還是最根本的問題啊"},{"start":920.882,"end":938.119,"text":"那今天賴清德如果民進黨立法院你是多數行政立法多數一致的時候當然你愛提誰就提誰我們也沒辦法這人民決定的可是當立法的多數跟行政的多數行政的總統是不一樣的時候他才會今天有今天我們憲政這個設計嘛"},{"start":940.174,"end":959.637,"text":"所以回頭還是要強調一件事情少拿憲法法庭攤換這件事如果憲法法庭真的攤換是因為賴清德你就堅持要用黨議大法官你就堅持不肯提兩個今天跟立法院多數民意商量的大法官你再兩個月提出來"},{"start":961.417,"end":983.148,"text":"就沒有今天你們民進黨說什麼癱瘓的問題那我這邊要鄭重的拜託跟勸告我們大法官沒有急迫性哪有急迫性預防性的權益救濟申請對不對你要有一個預防的標的那預防誰預防爛性的爛權才對啊第二個是要有急迫性急迫是什麼"},{"start":984.366,"end":1012.643,"text":"如果你認為今天這個書法通過之後大法官永遠不能開會你是對賴清德最大的玷污你就認為賴清德就是一個不顧名義強悍然後霸道的總統他一定不會提出一個讓人民滿意讓今天多數同意的兩個大法官人選你憑什麼大法官做這樣的預判啊預判賴清德的預判嗎可以這樣嗎"},{"start":1014.884,"end":1022.597,"text":"所以真的 民進黨搞出這種權力救濟 預防性權力救濟就是憲政的笑話一場 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158879","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158879","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1a839041cc050c5d90038dfc690a7e1b064204766f4a2623bde2ce94d99c1cf0755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"10:04:21 - 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委員長好有關監察院去年在12月5號對喬爾會有一個糾正案是針對在駐聖保羅辦事處的一個女員工遭到張姓主任的性騷擾的案件"},{"start":16.714,"end":25.819,"text":"處理的流程對陳情人這些接年有一些不利的處分所做的糾正案那問題是本席想對委員長說你們僑委會針對這個性騷擾案的處理還有整個調查的過程還是有一點疑問所以我想要一併等一下一起請教委員長就是因為受害人似乎是前年的時候六月的時候才向你揭發這個案件後來據說是委員長你親自處理的"},{"start":43.228,"end":45.47,"text":"然後那一年的時候那時候6月14號的時候這個歐姓的女員工向你揭發這件事情的時候請問你有做了些什麼事情還有當時駐聖保羅辦事處的喬偉惠然後在委員長你知道這件事情的時候究竟在你知道這件事情之前他們到底是不是已經知道有這個性騷擾案了呢"},{"start":67.332,"end":69.413,"text":"然後為什麼委員長你知道之後然後沒有做出性平法來做一個啟動的那個調查的程序然後也沒有採取任何的糾正還有補救的措施然後只有說口頭上說雙方只要"},{"start":82.6,"end":85.442,"text":"一個特定的距離還要調整業務互動方式就好了然後請問一下這個是符合性平法的處理的程序嗎這樣可以有辦法那個保護得了這個當事人嗎還有在媒體上有曾經說過這個案件不應該在僑界裡面有一些各自伸張互相放話的這些話"},{"start":103.214,"end":106.317,"text":"是因為怕僑界這樣是怕我們的僑委會這樣會家醜外揚嗎還是不敢伸張還是不敢依照性平法來處理呢還有因為我看了這整個的過程中然後從7月份在112年的7月份開始這個性騷擬員工的這個張姓的主任"},{"start":123.57,"end":133.296,"text":"就一直在放話然後導致歐姓這個女員工在7月到9月就是一旦的在追問還有一旦的在求助但是都是求助無門所以當時的僑委會竟然不理不睬所以我現在就是有很多問題想要請教委員長還有這一個女員工也在10月因為沒有辦法求助就是在10月12號的時候她提出了申訴然後結果她在當年她的年終考積就平等了"},{"start":153.189,"end":162.116,"text":"所以我們覺得很奇怪就是說他提出申訴的時間和僑委會對他的處分的時間是非常的接近然後是不是因為他提出了這個申訴所以連中考機才變平等呢而且聽說我看一下這整個情況是還有僑委會何時會發現他跟中資機關的駐外人員有一個聯繫往來的情況然後這個是不是讓大家又覺得說是不是因為他提出了申訴才開始"},{"start":181.531,"end":184.772,"text":"調查還有記過然後兩者這個有沒有關聯性還是你們認為覺得說這樣可以掩蓋事實然後故意把這個被害員工安插罪名然後讓這個職權就是利用你們職權來給他們報復還是給予這兩個這個員工第二個二次的罷免沒關係等一下你一邊說明我先把我的問題一次問清楚這樣然後還有這個性騷擾的加害者"},{"start":208.058,"end":224.999,"text":"只有簡單的寄了一個身戒一支還有年終烤雞一等但是提出生疏的受害者是烤雞是平等的而且是伎倆大過我覺得這樣是公平嗎而且上週五這個被害的女性員工服了大量的安眠藥緊急送醫"},{"start":226.741,"end":230.083,"text":"那僑委會對這個是不是有特別的去關心自己的員工呢還有說像這樣的事件整個經過監察院的提出了糾正那這樣的話委員長你認為這樣是覺得是當地的住處的處長是否有沒有失職的問題還是你認為說你自己有沒有失職的問題這我想請委員長可以剛才全部的疑問一併的說明謝謝"},{"start":254.22,"end":275.28,"text":"謝謝林委員召委的提問事實上我自己本身就是從事性別平等工作的一個運動者那我們這個中華民國很多的法律通過跟當時的立法我都是其中參與者我不會坐視任何有員工被欺負或者是遭受到騷擾不平等的對待"},{"start":277.302,"end":284.466,"text":"事實上在前年2023年的6月我第一次出訪到巴西前後總共是6月13到14號不到24小時的時間在我要離開的時候歐元跟我要了私LINE我就馬上給了他之後我離開到下一個國家打開手機之後有看到他傳來了一個訊息說他要提出申訴"},{"start":303.235,"end":317.697,"text":"因此我就跟他說那為了保障你的權利你要趕快把你所有針對你有利的資訊你要彙整起來包括你的一些相關工作紀錄排班出席表等等的東西因此我給了他好幾天時間"},{"start":319.099,"end":348.899,"text":"五天後呢他一直都沒有給我任何的新資訊因此我在原來又要飛下一個國度的時候臨時因為飛機班機有問題取消在當天我就想起來說這個五天了都還沒有接到資訊因此反而是我主動打電話給他說那這五天來你的資料準備好了沒有我想要趕快來了解看看怎麼幫你處理所以6月19號是我主動打電話給他他在接到我電話的時候事實上是在外面走路"},{"start":349.299,"end":367.452,"text":"而且他在我離開的隔天馬上就請休假了理由是去智利度假那事後我打電話給他說你現在背景音很吵是不是在智利他又說他不是所以事實上他請了去休假在智利卻是沒有去後來我知道說他還是留在巴西"},{"start":368.553,"end":372.295,"text":"無論如何呢他講完以後我馬上就他的具體資料呢開始進行了解那同時呢也做出了一個判斷跟處分就是說我認為張姓的這個主管確實他要有比較大的責任所以我就跟他說我要把你調回來你接不接受我的處分那張姓主任說"},{"start":389.745,"end":403.731,"text":"他同意被調回來所以在6月19號當天我已經分別告知兩個當事人的處分結果同時也要求他們在未來工作的職權上就不再有從屬關係因此在那個6月"},{"start":405.731,"end":422.196,"text":"19號之後6月20號他們分別報回來的工作日子都是兩個禮拜兩個禮拜兩個禮拜分別報回來過往他都是要交給主任看過主任才一起報回來我就是希望說在這個職權關係可以清楚啊 釐清以後他不要再受到任何的干擾"},{"start":422.916,"end":446.216,"text":"那所以當下我們的歐元是對我的處分他覺得非常的公正而且他非常滿意那我不曉得為什麼到後面我們進行這樣子的一個調處之後他們又私下再造成什麼樣的衝突那事實上七月八月都還好真正有一些狀況大概是在八月下旬那因為八月下旬在辦理一些活動的時候"},{"start":447.857,"end":476.708,"text":"僑胞也有人來檢舉說這個我們美食展的場合居然出現了五個中國中資的高級幹部出現那這件事情也造成他們的一些摩擦後面的演變的過程當中呢我從出訪到回來我七月初回到台北以後我就將跟他開會的所有這個資料證據我讓他自己錄音讓他自己做會議記錄然後把資料送回來那我們交給人事單位要求他人事單位要列案"},{"start":477.448,"end":495.6,"text":"那之後我也要求我們聯事單位呢必須要定期的給他包括心理的協助包括如果他要正式的提出我們的性騷擾調查案我們也會受理所以每個月7月8月9月我們都持續的做這些事情他當時都說沒有問題他都說沒有要提出一直到9月底10月初他突然間像"},{"start":504.565,"end":530.719,"text":"明帶檢舉然後就說他怎樣怎樣那可是各個很多的說法都是不符合公務人員的這個服務辦法的道理那其次就是說我們對於他考期的部分都是按照公務人員的服務辦法規定是因為我們不是我打的成績我反而沒有資格打成績本會的成績是由五個業務主管五個處還有加上這個代表處"},{"start":531.719,"end":558.371,"text":"或者辦事處的首長來共同幫他打成績所以是六個人的這個成績是總平均的事實上我們一年總共打三次有四個月一次兩次然後最後一次那他在具體要打到平等之前我們一定都要求各個首長一定要拿出他具體不利的事蹟到底是什麼所以事實上每一個首長都有把他具體不利的這個行為舉例出來比方說我們採購這個"},{"start":568.568,"end":569.192,"text":"所以在這邊要跟委員做說明"},{"start":574.036,"end":601.089,"text":"那後來僑胞因為他的案子曝光以後很多僑胞就自己開始來據名投書檢舉包括我們僑教中心的志工來據名檢舉說被歐元恐嚇說不能講不利於他的訊息還有一些僑務榮譽職也跟我們據名檢舉包括他有跟中資人員往來的一些照片資料提供給我們那我們在被具體檢舉的狀況之下我們不可能不調查"},{"start":601.889,"end":606.855,"text":"甚至有一些這個不當的請休假它事實上是有19天最後我們都從寬認定到最後只有認定5.5天的礦石案不然的話這個事情更嚴重而已那我跟妳講她現在服用大量的安眠藥緊急救援她不是現在服用沒有她沒有當天我"},{"start":620.471,"end":631.998,"text":"一大早看到他馬上送急診的時候 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不過因為我在想說既然經濟部本身就有訂定據創新能力的新創事業認定原則很清楚是以八年為標準的時候那麼我們也希望因為如果說我們常常條例也能夠一起符合這八年那個狀態我覺得搞不好會更一致啦好不好那這當然你他提到說行政院這邊有另外一個國發會這邊有一個針對新創產業的一個投資的部分他有另外一個標準"},{"start":274.847,"end":293.152,"text":"就是那個創業天使基金創業天使基金那邊它有另外一個標準的狀態本席理解這個狀態不過我想說既然經濟部本身就有一個原則的時候我們希望能夠一致好不好然後另外我這邊也要特別提到一個狀態因為在112年的時候就是2023年的時候我們那時候有針對產創條例有休時之二"},{"start":295.733,"end":314.86,"text":"當時大家都覺得這就是所謂的台版晶片法那麼覺得在台版晶片法當中的時候就被認為是租稅獎勵被稱為史上最大所以當時很多主要的公司包括在新竹的聯發科就被認為其實會非常的適用會從這一次當台版晶片法當中得到很大的一個獲益結果"},{"start":317.481,"end":331.079,"text":"開始推動之後臺積那個聯發科他們直接表示說他們其實並沒有得到任何的一個那個租稅的一個優惠那其中一個狀態因為我們產創條例基本上都是在"},{"start":332.099,"end":348.979,"text":"支持給那個硬體投資的一個優惠或者是一個軟體設備的一個優惠對於整個人力的一個投資的部分其實沒有特別的優惠那對於聯發科這樣子的一個IC晶片公司來講一個全球級的IC晶片公司來講的時候他們很多的"},{"start":350.12,"end":364.353,"text":"投入都是在能力的一個部分所以針對這個部分的時候我們是不是在整個產發條例當中會有所調整未來對整個產發條例當中的一個投資的方向不僅限於硬體或者是資訊軟體的領域"},{"start":366.349,"end":383.731,"text":"當然這個可以檢討但是因為現在有關人賠這部分就列為費用再處理那另外一個就是政府也有一些相對的補助措施都已經是一半所以這樣的話如果是在寵物在租稅優惠這邊是有點像寵物去做一些補助"},{"start":384.412,"end":403.661,"text":"不過因為事實上我們看到美國他們商務部他們跟整個國家科學基金會NSF他們在合作整個半導體人力的一個投入的一個部分那美國商務部就像我們經濟部這邊的一個角色一樣所以我們想經濟部在這個部分也能夠大力的去支持有有有在人才培訓這部分我們有大力在支持"},{"start":404.161,"end":426.078,"text":"那我最後提一個狀態因為現在全球都在爭取國際的一個勞動力那我們看到107年的時候我們有一個企業及法人申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習要點當中只給六個月那這實習六個月來說對於整個的成效基本上來說是不太夠的我們有沒有可能把它延展到一年"},{"start":428.036,"end":449.577,"text":"這個因為我們可能還要再來跟相關單位因為現在全球都在爭取國際勞動力那韓國跟日本他們也都在不斷的調整而且提高很多的一個很高的一個薪水所以我覺得台灣如果要滿足足夠的勞動力在這個部分可能也必須要一起進行修正好不好我們再來跟勞動部協調一下好 謝謝謝謝 請回座"}]}},{"id":"158883","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158883","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1aa2678e2e1bfb8d1e5a45ebd5c2e753184204766f4a2623bd5e1aacc5385281515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:20:45 - 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我們請這個經濟部的林慈昌進入林市長"},{"start":22.304,"end":42.614,"text":"市長好,今天談產業創新條例,剛好上一位呂友也有提到,剛好也是我想要就教在連市長的。我們這次產業創新條例有一個重要的主軸,就是提供事業投資、智慧機械、5G、減人減碳這些租稅減免,這是一項。"},{"start":43.527,"end":71.693,"text":"另外一項呢我也認為說我們這個修法也具備了國安還有社會安全的意識就是在這一個22條那我看一下你們的22條裡面你們有提到說為保護關鍵的技術還有維持這個產業競爭力所以呢你們有做一個修正從事國外投資於特定國家或地區特定產業或技術或達一定金額以上情形者應事前向中央主管機關申請核准"},{"start":72.313,"end":89.668,"text":"那有這個沒有申請核准實行投資者會處罰藉其會改正或停止或撤回投資都有啦那一樣請教一下因為我認為說這一點寫的明確是非常重要的"},{"start":90.208,"end":111.465,"text":"因為我們既然有這個產業創新條例我們鼓勵企業來投資但是有一些具有這個關鍵性的一些產業或是技術你就沒辦法讓它流到特定的國家或地區尤其是對台灣有敵對有敵意的國家或地區嘛那這一點能不能請次長再說清楚一點"},{"start":112.625,"end":140.873,"text":"就是這個投資於特定的國家或地區是指怎樣的國家或地區比如說是指中國嗎還是指哪裡我們現在是其實我們現在主要是在恢弘供應鏈的方式去著手啦那尤其是有一些我們的先進的技術我們絕對不能留到跟我們有一些相關的一些一些對我們不友善的國家而且這些先進的技術我們剛才講也要跟國際的一些規範要去做接軌"},{"start":141.673,"end":165.413,"text":"對啊 就是現在美國尤其川普總統他也對於一些關鍵的技術高階的晶片就是不能留下美國去嘛那我說請教一下這些特定的國家跟地區有沒有包含中國因為兩岸條例有在做一些規範所以我們這個會另外在跟兩岸條例那邊去做一些切割那你們這22條的規範是怎麼樣"},{"start":170.218,"end":198.458,"text":"各位報告特定地區我們目前最主要考量是有關於在戰略性高科技貨品管制出口的一些地區包括伊朗 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那個北部現在整體來講它確實供電的是小於需求啦就用電端的是比較大所以如果要解決要兩個一個就是北部要區域的平衡其實電源在北部要增加是不是要用核電"},{"start":125.831,"end":143.083,"text":"核電還是要考慮到那幾個問題是不是要用核電核電其實委員也知道其實就是法令要更改然後再來就是核安的因為你有研發中心又有總部未來在沙崙還要設置那個什麼還要設置超維那未來整體台灣的用電是不是要用核電"},{"start":152.116,"end":167.612,"text":"核電的問題還是跟委員報告就是要解決一個法令一個是核能安全還有現在核配料的處理以及全民的共識那現在目前來看整個台灣來講它全部全島的電其實是足夠的是沒問題"},{"start":168.573,"end":191.232,"text":"所以委員剛才提到如果北部現在區域的這個限制的話他就是必須要靠中南部的電送上來他確實是有電網上的限制所以台電為什麼要去做防任的計畫就是希望能夠強化這個電網的韌性這樣子讓能夠北送的還有加上北部區域電網的增加讓北部的電未來會越來越穩當市長要不要核電"},{"start":193.158,"end":205.85,"text":"這個核電這個這個就是反正你都要你都要退休了這個還是要站在你可以講啊你可以講實話啊這個核電就要依法行政啦因為現在法令是這樣規定再來就剛才講的那200億度的這個gap他去怎麼處理這個就是剛才我們"},{"start":210.993,"end":239.757,"text":"副總講的就是要透過整個電網的潤性然後來調度還有增加區域性的一個電源這樣來區域性的電源怎麼增加那因為現在我們在談那個4J嘛那這個東西也希望說大家能夠來支持還有啊他說要1萬坪以上的土地對不對那土地這個當然就是要看所有的台灣的土地你最清楚啦可以做工業園區可以做產業園區的土地你最清楚啊台北哪裡有"},{"start":241.299,"end":263.152,"text":"南港?還是什麼?一濱?一濱可以嗎?不夠?還是可以往上發展啊?是不是?因為它有它的設廠的一個設置的條件對啊,一濱可以往上發展啊,是不是?也不一定,反正只是總部而已啊,對不對?不一定需要很大的基地啊,是不是?一濱有沒有辦法?"},{"start":266.328,"end":287.106,"text":"因為我沒辦法幫他 還是新北這個還是要由公司自己來宣布好 那我們請那個副主委 高副主委喔那個如果啊 就是相關的這些 威達啦 超委啦等等的事的那我們估計 就只有威達而言他就需要2500位的員工那對於這個徵才部分"},{"start":292.56,"end":308.918,"text":"怎麼樣處理我們台灣大專院校的STEM的人才的培養那有沒有辦法支應這2500位微達喔 這微達就2500位喔那其他的呢 超微或者是台積電等等高科技產業"},{"start":310.16,"end":329.736,"text":"跟委員報告 其實我們吸引這些國際大廠來台灣設廠其實我們都有同步要求他一定要把招攬他國外的人才的一定的比重我們有要求第二個我們會要求他要訓練附帶訓練我們國內的相關的科技的人才"},{"start":330.616,"end":354.964,"text":"然後我當然我們也認為其實如果我們當然他某個程度上會排擠我們國內的其他的大廠的人才來運用可是我們會覺得說如果其實這些國際大廠來的話也有助於訓練我們具有國際性的科技人才的效應那我也知道現在我們全力的做纜財包括我們在東南亞我們很多這種產學專班"},{"start":356.624,"end":385.543,"text":"就是那個應該新型專班其實就是吸引東南亞就是大概是前八百大全球前八百大的學校對我們全力攬柴然後希望他來他也帶人才進來然後同時訓練本國的科技人才也就是說我們還是儘量採多管齊下的方式來從實兼顧科技大廠可以來台我們人才也不會流失的相關的問題"},{"start":386.664,"end":416.063,"text":"那他大概會做他大概會帶多少的國外人才進來要求他百分之二十二十五就是兩千五百位的百分之二十五那其他的部分就由就是東南亞的或者是我們國內的高科技人才的相關的培訓也要求他要同時提供他訓練我們本國人才的一些相關的規劃我們都有很多方面去要求他"},{"start":417.324,"end":437.44,"text":"好 謝謝 趙偉再給我一分鐘我最後問我們李慶華次長謝謝李次長次長 財政部對於我們產創的相關的就是租稅的優惠我們既然要協助產業也要扶植我們國內的相關的產業因應國際的情勢"},{"start":440.903,"end":452.592,"text":"為什麼你們都是很保守的就是說抵抗然後好像不積極你看到嗎過去我們在就是說我們對於這個降稅就是當沖降稅有沒有我們看到了我們增加了降稅反而增加了超多的稅收是不是為國家增加超多的稅收而且讓大型的頭顧跟金控在做他們相關的槓桿的時候這就是他們的啊當然"},{"start":469.745,"end":488.757,"text":"我們要避免小型的投資人不需要給他們過度的使用當沖造成他們的投資的風險這個部分我們到底財政部有沒有辦法相關的控管對於產業的租稅優惠有沒有辦法提供"},{"start":490.177,"end":510.388,"text":"其實我們這次是積極的配合經濟部研議這個提供租稅優惠的措施這點財政部是在行政院討論過程當中我們都是充分支持的所以你們會充分支持嗎你們不會再過度的保守這個版本就是我們兩個部會大家在行政院充分討論的結果大家提出來一個共識好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158873","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158873","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1a529091bfaf1f64a6038dfc690a7e1b063641ee913381949da5ee903531ddfe835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:44:34 - 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394,"text":"早上好我不覺得這是什麼中國用語首先我們先看一下最近的這個時事可以看到這個LA的大火是大家現在僑民最關心的我介紹到非常多的僑民在反映這件事情"},{"start":17.094,"end":46.537,"text":"这个我想图上可以看到LA的大火它从1月7号开始它燃烧面积799亩而且这个整个都还没有控制下来那我相信这个新闻上都有看到那去了解呢这一次的那个El Cardia还有那个Monrovia还有Pasadena这些地方都有很多侨胞跟LA的居住居民那请问在侨胞协助的部分我们有没有掌握状况"},{"start":46.966,"end":51.768,"text":"有 我們對於台橋的這個台橋或者是華橋在跟我們有具體的這個聯繫狀況之下我們都有掌握哪些橋明已經有因為房子被燒毀或者是這個有一些財產的損失等等這個目前都有掌握中"},{"start":67.074,"end":84.811,"text":"那這個我們可以看一下外交部跟僑委會這邊外交部跟處LA的辦事處他們其實都有在包含Facebook官網上面公布這次LA大火的協助資訊可是我們僑委會目前是沒有的雖然外交部這篇我也不滿意因為好像"},{"start":85.311,"end":108.397,"text":"是推给民间团体但至少有做可是呢我们希望说相关的这个我们的脸书因为第一时间大家不知道怎么办可能会上网看那希望说在这方面我们有掌握就是说他可以我们提供什么样的服务在我们的脸书上官网上也能够做一个比较精确的一个让大家搜寻的这个区块这是第一点"},{"start":108.757,"end":131.167,"text":"好那第二點呢我們也收集了一些LA校友團體他們在協助避難收容的情況那呢這個就是他們現在在講的那很多都是鄉親現在他們自己在尋找這個撤離避難的據點所以就是說有沒有可能我們當地包括我們的橋委員等等的那一起就橋委會請他們來協助說有華僑或我國居民的協助聯絡處彙整相關的資訊好"},{"start":138.19,"end":155.416,"text":"跟委員報告由於這個洛杉磯大火分三大區塊還在目前燃燒中沒有完全撲滅那這兩天呢據說又有一個新一波的分崩又可能會再起那所以我們都密切的關注目前的撤離整體大LA地區撤離的民眾已經高達19萬"},{"start":160.017,"end":177.689,"text":"那當然除了在地有一些比較多的華裔人口也有很多當地的人那在這樣的狀況之下確實我們是還沒有放在臉書但是我們在群組裡面是有PO一些訊息我們有些僑團的幹部都有把私訊做匯整好"},{"start":179.27,"end":187.96,"text":"因為當地許多的僑團社團是有私下協助的可是他們有跟我們反映說希望可以待會轉達說希望僑委會能夠主動做整合的動作這點要麻煩我們的委員長"},{"start":193.046,"end":195.028,"text":"我們事實上目前幾個主要社團在彙整大火的震災情形有大洛杉磯台灣會館、世華工商婦女會還有洛杉磯台美商會、南加州台大校友會、中華會館"},{"start":211.949,"end":220.217,"text":"還有慈濟總會在美國佛光山洛杉磯分會以及我們海外台灣鄉親關懷聯合會這幾個都是屬於僑團組織性的在提供這些災民避難的時候的一些協助"},{"start":230.447,"end":249.54,"text":"那也好那也讓他們知道一下就是說超委會有在做這個整合就可以了是是是好那另外一個問題喔是最近喔這個先前有那個柬埔寨的KK園區那後來沉寂了一段時間因為大家都有在就是各等於說整個東南亞包含台灣都有在抓嘛"},{"start":250.14,"end":274.028,"text":"那现在有一个新兴的手法我自己身边也有被害人那他们现在是去找这些小艺人比方说中央社报道27岁的火舞表演者谢先生在脸书上看到工作邀约在12月25号搭机到泰国之后失联那最后锁定的位置在缅甸而且他们要的是30万的赎金那30万的赎金"},{"start":276.229,"end":293.307,"text":"那緊急向高雄警方報案之後兩地警方合作之下又回回到台灣那雖然這邊不是這個警政署我也會跟他們說明但是呢這個類型的狀況因為我們之前在柬埔寨的期間2022年的時候僑委會是有"},{"start":296.83,"end":320.306,"text":"提供LINE的專線的LINE ID就是台灣Hochiming的這個訊息超委員會會將相關訊息轉至胡志明辦事處予以因應所以就是說現在這個新型態的部分除了警方部分他們都有去報案了但是呢就是他現在的狀況是我特別跟委員長講他們是先到泰國說有演出"},{"start":320.666,"end":331.135,"text":"然後上了車之後被迷暈被迷暈之後醒來人在緬甸所以確切的定點在緬甸那他們有時候不知道自己在緬甸的哪裡所以說我想要問先前因為2022年我們僑委會有協助這個柬埔寨"},{"start":336.52,"end":347.883,"text":"那這次的這個從泰國到緬甸的事件我們僑委會這邊可不可以也提供類似的相對應的協助我們在泰國代表處跟在緬甸代表處都有派駐我們僑務組的同仁所以這個個案如果有這個聯繫一個管道我們一定會協助他們"},{"start":356.886,"end":385.611,"text":"然後我把訊息提供給妳好嗎沒有問題而且還有它可能是系統性的要拜託這個喬委員長就是我們那個系統性的問題要解決因為越來越多了真的 委員講的是上次他們以前都是說去做詐騙這次真的不是去做詐騙了我已經很確定這次都是說去表演自動新興手法大家覺得自己是小表演團體然後泰國有很多表演機會然後上車之後直接迷暈 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國務委員有請次長還有國發會的副主委應該是連次長了國發會的高副主委"},{"start":32.619,"end":59.791,"text":"兩位好這今天產業創新條例的修正行政院版本有特別提到第10條之一新增人工智慧及節能減碳項目人工智慧的部分如果今天未來三讀通過修正條文"},{"start":61.268,"end":86.304,"text":"人工智慧這四個字會是在產業創新條例是第一個法例有人工智慧這個用詞那這個國科會國科會在113年7月15日依告這個人工智慧基本法的草案這依告"},{"start":88.045,"end":114.848,"text":"從去年的7月15日一告60天那後來並沒有送到行政院行政院也還沒有送到立法院所以在這個人工智慧基本法裡面當然有這個人工智慧的定義那我們現在這個產業創新條例沒有定義所以這個是一個需要考量的部分"},{"start":116.363,"end":145.505,"text":"那為什麼這個人工智慧基本法預告然後沒有送行政院我不知道有沒有審查我不清楚至少沒有送到立法院台灣人權促進會特別針對這個人工智慧基本法的草案這個發表了一篇文章而且是在這個預告之前預告之前這就提出了這樣的一個"},{"start":146.448,"end":170.197,"text":"疑慮 有很多的疑慮 但我只是摘入了部分的這個針對台灣人潛出境會 針對人工智慧基本法所關心的是不是因為這個 所以後來沒有沒有這個行政沒有送來 我不清楚我要說的是說 因為今天並沒有這個國科會的這個官員在這邊"},{"start":174.286,"end":192.293,"text":"所以國發會或是經濟部對於人工智慧把他納入進去因為我們是要擴大增加他的項目然後要給他一些相關的這些協助"},{"start":194.916,"end":210.723,"text":"這個部分是我們的法律沒有跟上啦事實上這個人工智慧在相關的這些推動上都在做了這個國發會你知道你們有相關人工智慧的法規嗎"},{"start":214.853,"end":220.618,"text":"我想人工智慧是五大信賴產業之一我想說你們有沒有這個法規有 我告訴你有 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{"start":130.527,"end":142.781,"text":"那他會要求你過去跟現在跟未來言行必須一致到時候萬一您擔任大法官那您的過去現在的答詢雖然只是一個法律上的見解也會拿來做引用您有記住了嗎"},{"start":144.712,"end":163.054,"text":"那接下來呢,我不做法律系大三以上的課程的教授我只做一般公民法感上他的理解現實生活中他遇到的法律問題我請教那個黃次長,看起來你應該比較常看電影,我不曉得你有沒有看過湯姆克魯斯的這個關鍵報告"},{"start":164.915,"end":179.702,"text":"很久以前有看過看過 有印象吧後面兩位有沒有印象我們比較輕鬆一點 有沒有印象有沒有看過 都沒有那我就問黃次長 他們都說沒有這個當中呢這個Tom Cruise他本來是一個受國家的執法機關的人員"},{"start":180.582,"end":207.394,"text":"他們這個當時的科幻片的情節呢是有個先知可以偵測出人的犯罪意圖可以預知未來的犯罪結果因此如果他預知張三有犯罪那麼這個特勤呢就會在他犯罪之前予以逮捕或獲刑大概是這樣吧是您覺得在哲學上這樣的做法一個人還沒犯罪之前因為預知他會犯罪先把他抓起來這個在哲學上有沒有問題"},{"start":210.599,"end":232.501,"text":"因為這個是科幻電影所以事實設定的條件跟我們現實生活中不太一樣就是必須說這個預知的犯罪是必然會發生的不做事前的逮捕 不化挽救所以如果預知一定會成真預告的情況一定會發生 那就要及時阻止在那個設定裡面是沒有蓋然性的問題"},{"start":233.246,"end":242.015,"text":"是 是這樣子但是人為了自己沒有犯的罪去坐牢這個就有點奇怪了啦我那時候在看點是想不通但是我們刑法上是不是有類似的規定"},{"start":243.906,"end":270.101,"text":"委員在螢幕上所顯示的這個是新訴法101-1條的預防性羈押的規定他是怕你跑掉啦是不是 說再犯罪啦 怕你重複犯罪這個主要不是反討 怕重複犯罪怕連續殺人 連續縱火 有必要嘛所以因為他前面有一個犯刑了所以足以讓我們支撐 為了預防他下一個連續犯刑我們把他終止 把他預防 是這樣嘛"},{"start":270.601,"end":294.109,"text":"好 那再看下一個其實我們台灣是熱帶氣候不過這兩天好冷如果在溫帶國家如果沒有暖氣的供應那是會要命的假如說有一個住戶客戶他跟他的天然氣瓦斯公司有爭議有欠繳的費用公司要給他斷氣但是他說這個今天太陽下山會冷死所以他說這個繳費的爭議先不能夠給我斷氣 你覺得"},{"start":298.359,"end":327.634,"text":"在民事上有沒有類似的一個措施可以來防止這個情況或判理這個情況民事上的損害預防有沒有類似的類似的規定這個我也是要講這個沒關係就你的理解因為我們只是說生活上假如說我們很冷結果跟公司有繳費的爭議他要給我斷氣我呢會怕凍死所以我說這個不能先給我讓我去討論說到底我有沒有欠他錢不能馬上斷"},{"start":330.069,"end":356.406,"text":"對 所以我想委員可能是要指出秘書法246條在外情不適合是 OK 好 所以你們的主張就是類似我看到這樣的見解這是在司法院跟法務部的見解 來往下看來 請教副秘書長其實今天呢 我的個人的見解是這樣法律三讀後已無改變可能啊所以應有預防性權利的救濟適用好 那我們現在不談法律系的大三的課程我們來看一看最近的歷史 請看"},{"start":358.196,"end":373.486,"text":"這個憲法法庭的職權是不是包括這六項違憲審查政黨的違憲解散統一的解釋法律命令還有機關爭議總統副總統談判地方制的保障是不是掌理這些事項是的那這些事項是不是很核心的就是保障人民的基本權利是的"},{"start":373.826,"end":393.025,"text":"同時要維持一個憲法機關的權力分立的原則包括政府 中央跟地方 是不是是很好所以憲法法庭不要以為只有政黨在關係政黨的利益他關係人民甚居我們看一下憲法訴訟法到憲判一一我之前在 有沒有詢問過你自己產生侵害財產權違憲一個女童因為她父親過世了"},{"start":397.409,"end":423.149,"text":"他的後母呢 跟他的其他的子女拋棄繼承之後結果他只繼承了150萬 卻要繳570萬的遺產稅那麼 胡平長 你對於憲法法庭這個判決不問違憲您覺得對人民的權利有沒有得到保障有 有重大保障那如果說今天這個案子還在審理中雖然我們現在預知審理結果是這樣假設在審理當中 現在憲法法庭不運作了是不是這個"},{"start":424.454,"end":426.736,"text":"小女孩她就要去繳這570萬對她來講5700萬的一個損害會發生"},{"start":436.994,"end":440.715,"text":"所以憲法法庭對人民是非常至關重要的我們再往下看所以本次憲法訴訟法將可能會讓憲法法庭的全部職權受到影響"},{"start":455.58,"end":484.338,"text":"包括什麼 我們的憲法輸送法第30條 第234項它同時呢去含設了43條的暫時處分的裁定75條的宣告彈劾的成立以及第80條的正常解散那是不是這樣子所有的憲法法庭涉及到這6種功能如果目前有8人未達10人門檻這些案件是不是都會受到影響 副局長你的看法呢要注意喔 有可能有一天你會當大法官喔會不會受到影響 目前的狀況會不會受到影響"},{"start":488.92,"end":491.844,"text":"就是這六個是不是都會受到影響可以請廳長說 你有機會當大法官"},{"start":495.307,"end":517.558,"text":"跟委員說明就是根據我們統計到昨天最新的數據我們目前的未結案有440件你已經跳題了我看下一題來是不是這樣就是目前為止未結案有430件這個是到去年年底那目前最新的數字未結案是440件440件又多了6件這當中人民申請的比例高達95%其中146件已經受理了"},{"start":521.38,"end":542.668,"text":"受理就是要排案去審理對不對如果憲法法庭停擺 這些人會不會受到影響如果憲法法庭沒有運作當然好 那我們來看一下還有誰受到影響呢 最近的案例高雄案件已經申請釋憲了 將庭審到憲判出爐是不是這樣子 副秘書長您覺得是不是所了解這個案對 他有裁定停止是 所以來 黃市長"},{"start":544.77,"end":564.176,"text":"這個案子涉貪案嘛 目前地檢已經提起起訴了那麼目前高昂案如果停止整理他是不是持續一個無罪狀態因為他還沒有判決確定 對嘛那如果無罪狀態 他要參選2026他目前為止就沒有新的案件事件發生的話他是以目前的狀態他可以繼續參選的 是不是這樣"},{"start":566.546,"end":585.065,"text":"這個可能要由內政部到時候 到中選會那時候來做這個審查是 但是以目前如果沒有其他案件以他現況只有這個案件的話這個案件如果是無罪那沒有其他案件的話那他是可以繼續參選的這個案件只能說還沒判決權對 還沒判決權好 OK 好 謝謝另外還有一個案件 來 那個次長"},{"start":586.311,"end":610.625,"text":"政黨違憲解散難以執行 目前我們看到了新聞報導危害國家安全的反滲透法的 總統副總統選罷法的兩岸條例的 八岸十一人都是統促黨目前內政部說要查處 申請解散目前有沒有收到內政部的申請來請聽 聽長有沒有收到目前沒有收到內政部的那如果收到了以後可不可以審理 如果目前的狀態下"},{"start":612.192,"end":623.768,"text":"呃 能不能審理這次審判事務所以我們就不方便說了好 那我很清楚好 我們來看一下所以說如果憲法法庭癱瘓停擺誰受益誰受害很清楚啊政黨受益啊"},{"start":625.724,"end":651.303,"text":"統促黨可以免於解散啊還不急著解散啊社攤的市長民眾黨社攤的市長 停審啊依照現在狀況可以繼續參選啊但是如果以那個憲判11號以判的萬一他那時候還沒判出來他叫無辜的女孩背負五千七百萬的遺產稅擬制稅制還有喔112去年前年啦現在是前年的審第十案 待審"},{"start":652.384,"end":679.98,"text":"是一個堂叔從小他的親戚的孩子要把他收養因為不符合出養的規定那麼呢所以他就要等著收養如果這個案子沒有判下來黃市長您覺得這樣的一個人民的權益是不是會受到損害會有相當大的影響會有相當大的影響我們講一下看繼續那我請教副秘書長司法院本身性質之權如果受到影響可不可以請求釋憲"},{"start":681.98,"end":710.254,"text":"憲法訴訟法第47條第一項有沒有符合 如果說最高機關司法院嘛因本身所適用的法規定有任何觸犯憲法者可以申請憲法法庭做違憲判決嘛 可不可以這在法條上是符合的那你們有沒有做過過去有沒有做過 廷長根據我們目前掌握的資料在過往就職時期司法院曾經有申請過兩件但這兩件最後都不受理"},{"start":711.224,"end":739.293,"text":"好 那我們來看一下 如果司法院有申請過不管有沒有受理啦那有沒有其他機關提出來的立法院可不可以提出 譬如說4-61-601當年也是涉及到司法院大法官他的專業法官加擠司法院沒有提啊 誰提民進黨黨團提啊 因為刪了總預算這就在去年到今年 今年的總預算案 負面是啥"},{"start":740.421,"end":756.623,"text":"你們目前簡列的跟凍結的數額多少你知道嗎目前還沒有加總沒有加總你要小心好所以說立法院的部分委員只要符合四分之以上就可以提出"},{"start":757.761,"end":787.161,"text":"對於這些有違憲之餘的我們會提出申請釋憲是不是這樣可以嗎好那我們來往下一看那什麼時間可以救濟目前我們看到的限訴法是在復議未通過現在在這個階段藍色的階段尚未生效總統公佈後生效施行那以生效就無法依我依憲新法就無法裁判那目前是否已經沒有其他憲政方式可以改變結果有沒有"},{"start":788.021,"end":807.992,"text":"這個結果目前,附議案不通過了,有沒有其他改變的可能?這個法案,限訴法,您覺得有沒有可能?目前的階段有沒有可能改變?來,廳長還是要廳長答?兩位都有當大法官的機會的人,請小心答,來有沒有可能改變?"},{"start":810.209,"end":834.28,"text":"因為這個即將是可能會成為一個我們系訴訟的案件是 所以你們不必表示意見很好 好 往下看那麼訴訟的核心功能即使有權力有效的權力救濟暫時處分我們看到了起訴後再暫時處分到判決確定前預防訴訟為了避免遭到不可維護的損害紅十字法你們舉的例子在起訴的時候你就要進行防止權力損害"},{"start":835.18,"end":856.608,"text":"所以如果承認事後不可救濟是不是就應該允許提出暫時處分或預防訴訟這是你們今天提出來的一些看法供我們本委員參考是不是這樣子副秘書長我所覺得我所做的這個事情權利救濟是不是就今天討論核心要有及時有效的權利救濟嘛您的看法呢這是我整理的啦"},{"start":857.677,"end":871.993,"text":"你們覺得是不是大概是這個意思就你們提的這兩個案子一個是國家考試你們舉的例子嘛是嘛是這個例子嘛一個是兩個例子嘛一個是考試嘛報考對不對一個呢是紅十字嘛OK好往下看"},{"start":872.774,"end":899.587,"text":"所以結論我也不要耽誤時間因為主席站出來雖然沒講話雖然他之前說要給我兩個小時但是我相信他的身體比較誠實他既然起來了我就把結論說了所以憲法法庭停擺是不是政黨受益人民受害這是我今天要來這邊表達的當然我們尊重大家各自的看法第二 立法委員只要符合憲法法規定就可以就司法院權力提示線是有權力的"},{"start":901.879,"end":917.089,"text":"4-601那你們自己講的有不成案的不受理的也有兩件申請釋憲暫時處分之時機是不是最後一個你可以說是不是應該由憲法法庭來認定對這是憲法法庭的那個權限很好謝謝今天我的質詢就到這裡謝謝跟詢問跟說明謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158882","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158882","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1aeddc827086d60c36038dfc690a7e1b064204766f4a2623bd2ea2eef765d06ad55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:15:57 - 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加強腳步啦是的 你在114年就趕快開始布建你115年可以每日呈現嘛今年會做準備計畫公告對啦 你要這麼做嘛你怎麼可能115年空掉一年做什麼呢是的 是的 沒有 今年是公告計畫我們是務必嘛 你預計什麼時候公告"},{"start":371.628,"end":398.421,"text":"我們現在因為送那個行政院國發會審核通過以後呢應該是在今年七月年中嘛七月之後我們就會公告年中之後去公告東南亞地區亞太地區非歐美區的我們都會公告非歐美區的澳洲啊紐西蘭都會有我們也希望以我們的華語文讓世界來接軌讓我們國家更"},{"start":399.843,"end":401.207,"text":"好的 謝謝楊委員謝謝楊瓊瑜委員那我們先休息五分鐘"}]}},{"id":"158880","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158880","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1a13232be33b0c27315a45ebd5c2e753184204766f4a2623bdf8442d53e673a3d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:14:05 - 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請連次長請經濟部的連次長"},{"start":20.266,"end":36.322,"text":"市長您辛苦了也即將要退休在這邊先恭喜你至少現在可以過個好年今天我們經濟部特別排審了這個產創條例做個修正那我們看到我們現在的產創條例是時間這個優惠這個稅金這個部分的話我們是2024年的12月嘛到2020年12月現在要"},{"start":44.309,"end":68.052,"text":"要延長到2029年 延長了5年的時間那當然我們也會其他增加一些項目包括人工智慧跟節能減碳部分但是這個上限的話 我們是從10億提高到18億的這個金額那對於我們整個投資 國外的投資的話這管理機制就是要加強了整個配套都要加強了那所以我們直接進入主題 我們的產創條例的"},{"start":69.673,"end":95.029,"text":"這個整個修正本席看了行政院的版本之後的話在22條之一啊特別看到我們投資的特定國家地區還有特定的產業這技術還有一定的投資進了這個部分完全沒有明確規範出來在我們的母法裡面並沒有看到那這樣子的話產業如果去依循你們的規定那如果是不小心觸犯了這個界限的話那又被重罰"},{"start":95.589,"end":99.4,"text":"那這部分我們有沒有廣大的這個擴充這個整個意見的話來做一個統整的執法出來"},{"start":102.649,"end":129.035,"text":"跟委員報告我們在修正草案的22條第5項我們把特定地區還有特定的產業技術還有一定的金額我們都授權在執法裡面來明訂執法訂了嗎執法依照規定行政院現在規定是要在母法修正以後6個月之內所以說6個月我們一定要完成所以你趕快要跟哪個國家可以去投資哪個區域不能去或者是金額的上限甚至最重要的技術問題關鍵技術還是要流到台灣"},{"start":132.356,"end":144.469,"text":"這個很重要的我們也會再跟外界好好再溝通一下是 所以這個都要整個配套說到大家的意見都有共識之後把執法整個細則執行細則規範通通都要出來要趕快出來要不然的話我們產業界沒有依循的一個方向的話很容易讓你們經濟部羅織了產業的罪名"},{"start":152.998,"end":180.005,"text":"那這個就不好了那另外還在22條之四的部分的話產商條例裡面有講到在如果說會影響國家的安全或者是我們的經濟有影響到的話我國經濟影響到的話這個重大清潔的話你就要求產業要撤資回來那請問什麼是重大清潔你們重大清潔是什麼情形完全沒有定義沒有出來啊"},{"start":181.355,"end":205.049,"text":"跟文包如果說廠商對外投資有影響到國安或者是說對經濟有不利影響怎麼樣才影響到國安這個就要配套因應出來啊是是 這個其實個案的還是今天修正過來六個月再提出來六個月時間是非常長那所有產業要到國外去投資他一定會沙盤推演市場評估通通會出來那你這樣子講的話"},{"start":208.271,"end":235.399,"text":"重大清潔就是你們可以任意的羅織罪名的不會 那個測字一定是最後手段啦我們一定是會在符合比例原則跟最後手段性的這一方面也可以定義出來 更明顯然後其他國家其實也都有相同的規定譬如說像美國他們最近的那個1月2號事情的譬如他的重大清潔是什麼重大清潔他們也有相關的測字的規定啦對 有測字規定我知道可是重大清潔的規範在哪裡"},{"start":237.98,"end":259.737,"text":"那產業不是要走越線的地方嗎因為我們條文裡面要核准的說有一些要審查的標準譬如說影響整個國家安全或國家經濟發展有不利或是說像跟一些國際的一些條約相關的這些都知道我覺得還是要更加明確要更加的明確啦好不好那我們到時候我們會很明確那產業要依循的去規範好不好"},{"start":262.639,"end":278.705,"text":"好 那接下來我想請教的就是說川普在1月20號他就要上任了他的主張是要增加關稅的部分我相信經濟部應該是嚴正以待也都應該有配套的措施看怎麼樣協助產業那尤其是我們國家是出口"},{"start":279.505,"end":307.421,"text":"出口導向的而且我們的出口值年年增加到現在的1113億的這個美元所以如果說川普關稅要提高到10%到20%的話這個會影響整個產業但是我們看到我們經濟部有講法是說你會協助他們可以如果說以在美國的產業的話為出口的話那你們會協助他到國外去投資那我們的企業產業不是完全出走了嗎"},{"start":307.961,"end":334.609,"text":"我們的關鍵技術能夠跟流台灣嗎?這都非常重要的耶所以連市長,這方面的話你們有沒有因應的措施?跟委員報告,有分兩個面向來講第一個就是我們出口過去大部分是中間原材料中間原料其實對美國在發展是有利的這一塊我們會再來跟美國再協調第二個就剛才講的是說會把在美墨邊境的這些因為他們當時是因為這些品牌商要求在美墨邊境去增加"},{"start":335.109,"end":358.749,"text":"投資像ICT產業自動性產業跟這些電動車產業那這些東西他怎麼從墨西哥這邊再往美國的邊境這邊來可是我們以美國出口的話大概都是機械用具跟電機的設備尤其是半導體為主那如果這產業大量外移的話那人才也會跟著外流你就看台積電好了多少人才工程師出去所以我們各國的半導體這個產業這個優勢我擔心的是恐怕會被美國來掏空"},{"start":364.476,"end":392.009,"text":"這個我們會嚴密的去監控你怎麼嚴密監控呢所以現在我們看到很多重要產業不只是半導體方面所以我們希望我們整個產業的人才問題還有我們所制定的規範問題這個投資的方向各項各項我們都要嚴正以待而且一定要有共識做一個明確的定義好不好才不會讓我們人才外流保護我們的產業讓我們的經濟不受影響好 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第一個進一步問台電為2016年開始寫過幾次改善公司體質還有營運績效的有關報告這個大院這邊都有要求啦這個可能要回去查幾次這邊可能有一百塊有了嘛第三點其實很重要你寫了一百次以上的報告"},{"start":336.567,"end":356.598,"text":"你主要的改善項目是哪些?有哪些是重複的?看旁邊有哪些是有改善的?有具體成效其實你只要從裡面去你以前提出來的計畫真的有改善有績效你就不會了解啊你怎麼從敗家子變成金雞母變敗家子又上不來對不對好所以今天我明確的要求請台電請台電"},{"start":362.486,"end":387.023,"text":"提出一個全面性具體的改革計畫書,其實沒困難的,我剛才說那幾點啦你從106年到現在,最重要的一百次,去把以前真正你覺得你要做沒有做的,或者是你做的有績效的,把它整理出來,好不好?你當初世界金融風暴的時候,那時候美國聯準會說過一句話,他們說像花旗一樣,大大不能倒的公司,台電也是一樣,大大不能倒的"},{"start":388.561,"end":405.29,"text":"我們會給你 我們可以救你一次可是不能夠給你再犯的機會我們人民跟立法院已經給台電多少次的機會了至少撥補三次了嘛 三千億了啦你現在還要拿一千億不算啦 不算啦台灣民眾黨做了決定不會有這一千億了好 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謝謝我覺得這是很重要的就是說我們沒有辦法因為不管是在從商還是任何的中小型的NGO團體它都一定會有競爭競爭的時候可能會有各種不同的說法"},{"start":174.719,"end":190.433,"text":"那如果沒有真正的調查報告出來之前我們沒有證據去指控或者是說這一個人他就是做些什麼事情要以證據為導向那至少我們能做的就是在聘用僑務委員或者是這些重要的不管是榮譽職還是非榮譽職的時候"},{"start":192.034,"end":218.948,"text":"對於國家的認同我們有最基本的考核那剛才委員長這樣的答覆我是可以接受的那以後我們更要注重這件事情就是說如果任何假設因為現在有各種不同的訊息那有類似這樣的質疑的時候逼時間就把他質詢出來照片也拿出來說就不是一個不是單一事件是在美國我們他們有各種不同的這個通商的對象那本來就是會有國與國之間的關係美國跟中國也是國與國之間的關係嘛那他們是僑胞他們是僑民當然是"},{"start":221.229,"end":248.287,"text":"不會說他們同時都是美國的公民所以這件事情我必須再強調一下就是說第一個中程考核這個部分或者說國家的這個認同的部分這個我們未來這個是我們能做的就是要做到我們有辦法做的就涉及司法的涉及調查的這個可能是他們商務事情的糾紛或者是各種可能性都有那這個另外一部分由社會去公平讓他們自己"},{"start":248.607,"end":266.717,"text":"要負起自己的責任國家能做的是這邊私人能做的是這邊那當然其實這樣子的爭議他們我相信媒體也是有所本但是還是一樣我們強調這個部分就屬於私人的部分公私我們把它分開來但是接下來的問題就是關於洛杉磯僑胞的處置"},{"start":270.345,"end":275.09,"text":"委員長知道最近洛杉磯的野火的狀況嗎是非常嚴重非常嚴重那這個野火的狀況有沒有掌握到我們的僑胞的狀況是怎麼樣有我們具體上來講目前的這個僑胞有人身安全通通沒有受到任何的這個具體傷害"},{"start":290.868,"end":292.57,"text":"但是財損確實有不少所以我們大概有掌握了大概八戶是有這個真的因為在火災當中這個房舍被燒毀那麼有一些財產的損失包括車輛等等的"},{"start":306.147,"end":313.27,"text":"但是目前為止因為大火都還在持續中所以我們都密切的在觀察因為風向會隨時改變那有可能燒的區域範圍又會擴大那我們也都積極的宣導讓住在比較靠近可能是會風向導向的這個大火"},{"start":326.135,"end":344.729,"text":"波及區都希望他們預先撤離至少人身安全先顧起來然後比較重要的個人的這些文件或者個人的比較私密財產的東西可以移走的就先移走這部分我們都有在宣導那委員長這個部分跟外交部的分工是怎麼分工"},{"start":345.289,"end":370.195,"text":"基本上我們在洛杉磯有這個辦事處 辦事處是統一指揮那我們的僑務組呢 因為我們有設立這個僑教中心那僑教中心他都積極的跟所有我們在大洛杉磯地區的各個僑社就保持密切的聯繫 知道他們可以提供什麼樣的援助或者是他們的這個會員或者親友之間有什麼樣受害的情況"},{"start":371.435,"end":397.585,"text":"資源上面人力上面沒有重複反而是有分工的效果所以說甚至是我們不見得是僑胞可能是我們的留學生然後還有一些短期觀光的旅客那萬一需要協助那剛好這個我們僑界有資源甚至是有空間可以釋出的話那他們也可以去那邊避難大概是這樣子的概念因為我們在大洛杉磯已經成立兩個集難救助協會那這個兩個集難"},{"start":401.206,"end":404.509,"text":"我們成立極難救助協會就是希望幫助旅外國人他可能是短期去經商或探親或就學交流等等那他臨時遇到狀況的時候他就是向我們這個極難救助協會來行仇協助"},{"start":416.317,"end":442.967,"text":"那他們不用直接跟集團就是學會就直接跟我們的這個出外的辦事處理師直接聯繫然後他們就會把他轉介到那邊去那現在我們有學生有相關的受困的狀況嗎目前學生沒有但是我知道那個大火有燒到UCLA的這個部分的區塊所以UCLA也有做部分的撤離最後一個問題因為這個想要請教其實我去年就有在談的"},{"start":444.167,"end":462.686,"text":"大橋的計畫2025年的海外的大橋計畫那也是我們橋委會的旗艦計畫旗艦計畫我想他做得非常好我們辦公室也有同仁過去也是在大橋計畫今年有沒有已經到中南部宣傳"},{"start":464.127,"end":465.448,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我們很重視這個區域的平衡性所以中南部的大學也很多所以我們"},{"start":480.365,"end":493.15,"text":"計畫在今年度我們除了北部的說明會我們也會到中部、南部各有一場就是希望說讓不同區域的學校、大學的學生都知道這些資訊可以來跟我們報名爭取"},{"start":496.586,"end":514.278,"text":"各一場 中部跟南部各一場那雲嘉地區算中部還是南部 中南部我們會聯絡學校 多講一些啦 文長這個光是我們的雲嘉的院校就蠻多從科技大學到國立的大學 私立的大學 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doctor事實上已經都是在各大學醫學院同時是臨床醫師也同時是教授那他們對於我們的學子幫助就很大所以有十多位醫學院的學生參加了這個座談會以後覺得對於他未來的生涯發展"},{"start":258.73,"end":270.1,"text":"提供了非常多重要的建議所以我們就搭配著我們既有的一些相對的文化活動或者是一些專題的活動或者橋台商的活動我們都會積極的幫這些台灣的搭橋計畫學員來做一些進一步的媒合讓他們有興趣的領域呢可以持續的發展那當然今年呢我們由於去年的這個報名人數破歷史新高2800個"},{"start":288.905,"end":315.501,"text":"以上的這個申請案我們只挑了60個老實說是真的非常競爭那到今年呢我們就從善如流因為委員們都很關心說這麼多人這麼優秀那我們可不可以增加名額但在我們預算有限的狀況之下今年我們是有擴增一些所以我們名額會提到80幾位那就是希望說多增加幾個不同的路線能夠讓更多的優秀台灣的年輕人"},{"start":316.621,"end":327.646,"text":"出國去學習跟見識同時他們也在海外的時候跟我們在海外的這些第二代第三代的年輕人也建立很好的互動關係這是我們在搭橋計畫近兩年來具體的一些發展新的面向"},{"start":332.888,"end":345.932,"text":"是委員長剛才講到非常重要一點就是說其實這個計畫其實要有這個延續性那我們現在開始來做那為什麼本席會提出來是因為本席辦公室有一位同仁其實他就參加了第一屆的這個大橋計畫他說他從這個交完這個計畫成果發表會之後他說橋口會再也沒有跟他聯絡過所以為什麼我會在這裡提出來"},{"start":356.135,"end":362.798,"text":"因為我覺得真的是非常的可惜那當然我們很開心聽到委員長說其實這兩年我們已經積極的就是要建立一個交流的平台那我覺得這種學長學弟制的那種學弟妹制也很重要因為也是一種經驗的這個傳承我想因為我知道說這計畫最主要的目的是要讓這些青年學子培立成為未來橋界的這個人才"},{"start":379.284,"end":386.369,"text":"然後我有看到你們有提到說進一步蛻變成為宣傳台灣之橋屋外交兼併計畫這個很重要的一點那居然要有這一點要實現的話我想從106年之後的這些曾經參加過這個海外大橋計畫的這七年學子其實我們都可以一把找回來因為我的那個同仁就說沒有耶他們從來沒有聯絡過我發表完之後其實我們也覺得非常的遺憾他說其實應該要有一個連續性的這個計畫好 謝謝委員長"},{"start":409.045,"end":432.492,"text":"那再來還有一點我還要提到的就是有關於這個海外的這個校友會的這個成立的部分因為我今天我也看到這個委員長你有提到在這個節雨的時候你說轉彎114年僑務工作推動了需要鞏固跟擴展海外僑界的這個力量當然其中就包含的這個留台校友會那我們看到說其實呢從2021年開始台灣"},{"start":435.233,"end":453.725,"text":"台灣的這個出口貿易在對美國也好是對東協十國來講其實都都是有上升的那剛好這些東協十國呢或是美國其實很多僑外生也都到台灣來來留學那我們有看到在數據上我們可以看到就是說其實馬來西亞目前有59個這個留台校友會甚至馬來西亞還有這個留台總會他們這個組織算是非常的這個完整那是因為馬來西亞來台"},{"start":461.369,"end":481.139,"text":"你也說喬惠森呢其實有五六十年的這個歷史有這個歷史淵源那可是我們看到泰國啦印尼也有成立那再來還有一點我特別看到就是越南越南目前只有兩個這個留台校友會其實我們知道說近幾年來不管是校友會也好或者是教育部其實呢就成立了很多這個橋外"},{"start":482.66,"end":489.284,"text":"升的這個專班我想畢業回去的這個越南的這個僑外生應該也不少所以我在想說這個校友會應該是要積極來輔導像越南他們來成立這個校友會因為校友會其實呢因為曾經在台灣念書生活過所以對台灣的向心力其實是非常強的那藉由這個校友會作為我們跟這些東協國家也好或是澳洲啊美國加拿大這些國家都好我在想在這個"},{"start":512.378,"end":522.303,"text":"連結方面或是對這個兩國之間的這個互動其實有很大的這個幫助所以這個部分可能除了馬來西亞之外其他的國家我們都需要積極來做輔導這個部分是會我們會加強因為"},{"start":527.285,"end":534.146,"text":"越南這十年來的學生確實有增加但是已經畢業回去的相對還沒有很多所以目前是兩個這個僑友會組織但我們可見的未來可能再等個三年到五年左右我相信這個僑友會就會像這個遍地開花一樣各地都會產生那我知道這幾年因為我們在國際情勢上真的是非常的困難然後僑友會我也知道委員長跟副委員長其實很積極的"},{"start":556.27,"end":566.156,"text":"走訪各國去拜訪僑界那這個努力本身是非常的肯定那當然在數據上可能還是有需要加強的地方好的 以上謝謝謝謝羅委員謝謝羅美玲委員委員長請回接下來我們請王逸川委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"158866","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158866","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1ab87b3900170e7bf55a45ebd5c2e753183641ee913381949d4ecdb07f450427e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:27:49 - 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我們請次長哪一位次長連次長連次長"},{"start":16.351,"end":42.744,"text":"院長市長早市長其實我們當每一次在談我們的新創或是中小企業然後現在增加了我們昨天剛公布然後今天早上馬上可以上線申請的中小微企業其實我們爭取很久了就是說我們過去所看到都是中小企業但是幾乎都忘了其實在"},{"start":44.269,"end":67.09,"text":"最有底氣在基底為我們打拼我們創造經濟奇蹟的很多都是30人以下的包括零售業製造業還有服務業可是往往我們在龐大的一些協助轉型的預算當中都忘了他們的存在所以我們談了好久爭取好久終於"},{"start":68.231,"end":93.892,"text":"我們的中小微企業也就是30人以下的多元振興發展計畫正式上路就在今天可是我們在談的我們現在就是三個策略數位轉型 淨零轉型 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Generation就是希望說將比較多的這個活動量能跟資源放在培育下一代第二第三第四代"},{"start":430.615,"end":445.046,"text":"那麼像傳統僑社他們就有很嚴重的這樣的挑戰傳統就是說如果你僑社還是站在僑社僑團站在純粹聯誼啦是固定時間吃飯啦那個年輕人就不會有興趣了沒有錯對"},{"start":446.147,"end":464.208,"text":"如果他來,譬如說他來他有機會做創業,他來有機會交朋友,好,那譬如說像在台灣的這種四大社團,他就會參加。是。阿不然齁,當時啊,我們在海外的外黨齁,包括外交部的代表處啦,僑委會,批一本命啦,"},{"start":464.568,"end":468.351,"text":"對 吃飯的大時間喔第四個吃啦 吃吃都放太清豆總統的會爽化而已委員你的觀察非常深刻所以我們這幾年也是積極的引導喬設說這種傳統聯誼活動的這個比例就下降然後多增加辦一些年輕人有興趣的比方說如何創業所以新創的議題介紹專題的 科技的 文化的那這些年輕人都相對有興趣"},{"start":493.03,"end":502.539,"text":"這樣就對了那我們請這個僑委會這個委員長還有我們副委員長大家一起加油謝謝謝謝謝謝王委員謝謝王逸川委員委員長請回接下來我們請徐草新委員上台質詢"}]}},{"id":"158869","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158869","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1a23f2bba758689d0e5a45ebd5c2e753183641ee913381949debd2ef2fddbaddb65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:35:25 - 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強勢我們再算2024年我們對美國的粗糙你知道多少嗎最新的數字"},{"start":214.912,"end":234.247,"text":"649億沒有沒有我現在這邊數字是649億然後你比2023的部分成長了83.5%大幅成長大幅成長喔之前大概300多億而已你看看我們有沒有可能會被針對的對象有沒有可能我們是列在第十幾個"},{"start":235.507,"end":262.399,"text":"報告委員那這個其實是一個所謂一個像我們對中國的出口這我知道啦我們廠商撤回來從我們這邊出口就算我們的啦但是事實上就增加了嘛是報告委員那我們出口到這個美國的產品基本上都是中間品其實是對它經濟發展是非常有利的我們會從這個方面所以你不認為我們會被制裁我們關稅不會被提高你很樂觀很有把握"},{"start":263.619,"end":284.666,"text":"我們會盡量去跟美方去溝通我跟你講人家我們之前在財政委員會央行都有具體的做法他說要平衡這個貿易順利差的部分第一個買武器第二個買農產品第三個買他的天然能源也就是天然氣你們沒有做"},{"start":286.917,"end":312.03,"text":"你們連有做都沒有做都不曉得我都可以查出來了你們之前是澳洲卡達最近美國已經買到他10%了跟美國能源合作這一塊我們有在研擬也在研擬那我就想要請教你嘛央行都提出具體主張那我請問一下經濟部對於這種現象有沒有什麼具體主張嘛那個尤其是你要退休我在問你這個實在沒有意思啊但是你現在還是官員啊"},{"start":313.09,"end":320.38,"text":"跟委員報告那個尤其是那個應該是4月份的有什麼具體做法嗎你總不能要告訴我說1月20號上任債來說5月份的那個美國USA我們會擴大"},{"start":328.351,"end":331.713,"text":"整個投資團會過去具體一點擴大投資團會是什麼擴大你就是等於要買美國的東西買更多一點那這個是除了有購買有投資之外這個是尤其是ICT產業或電動車產業怎麼在美國跟美墨之間怎麼去做一個投資"},{"start":347.162,"end":362.179,"text":"你投資社長當然就不用算出口的金額這是救地的方式好方式就是減除我們這個貿易順差的數字這個我理解但是問題是你直接跟美國買的部分他還比較開心一點你可以跟他買什麼"},{"start":363.462,"end":392.803,"text":"武器不是你管的嘛 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是這樣嗎"},{"start":229.049,"end":249.058,"text":"這個部分就是還是要回到那個沒有生效的法律可不可以成為釋憲的標的這是一個標準的抽象法律問題啊司法院現在連這件事情都不敢表示意見喔那個委員這個部分在個案適用中的時候這不是個案適用這是法律原則喔"},{"start":252.823,"end":274.591,"text":"沒有生效的法律可不可以成為事件的標的這是一個抽象的法律問題啊請教司法院的立場是什麼在憲法訴訟法第一條呢它是沒有規範這種案件類型沒有規範這種案件類型嗎那你們當初在推憲法訴訟法的時候有要創設這種法律生效以前的違憲審查制度嗎"},{"start":277.952,"end":287.463,"text":"有嗎跟委員說明就我的了解當時沒有討論到當時沒有討論到你確定嗎你確定嗎就條文的立法理由來看的話來來來"},{"start":290.441,"end":310.897,"text":"我審過的東西啊我都會記得很清楚啊來先看一下憲法訴訟法刑事上面46條準用行政訴訟法115條再準用民事訴訟法246條你要看一下準用啊除了有特別規定以外還要跟本法性質不相抵觸啊"},{"start":312.028,"end":337.221,"text":"要跟本法性質不相抵觸啊才有準用的可能跟空間嘛現在的問題在哪裡我國的違憲審查制度從以前到現在都是針對已經生效的法律都是針對已經生效的法律跟在法國他們透過破毀法院能夠預先提早進行法規範憲法審查"},{"start":339.833,"end":364.771,"text":"是兩套完全不同的制度啊在每一本憲法教科書裡面啊全部都有寫每一本憲法教科書全部都有寫這麼基本的東西啊你們司法院到今天突然不敢表示立場我為什麼說突然不敢表示立場剛剛司法院的代表說在修法的歷程當中從來沒有成為真典說謊"},{"start":368.888,"end":370.41,"text":"說謊我為什麼說說謊來看一下2019年修法的時候憲法訴訟法那個時候2019年我們2018到2019年修法嘛來看一下"},{"start":386.156,"end":412.396,"text":"2018年修法的時候司法院明確表示總統沒有公布的法律不可以成為事件標的為什麼我記得這件事情因為當初提出這個問題的就是我當初司法院的秘書長是呂太郎我們看一下我當初怎麼問他的幾件事情請教司法院第一件事情你們在界定就期行使職權可以申請事件成熟的時間點是什麼時候"},{"start":415.081,"end":434.737,"text":"呂秘書長太郎怎麼講的目前我們的制度跟法國不太一樣法國憲法委員會是有部分國家憲政顧問的作用可以先問憲法委員會我們這邊沒有所以我們的制度來設計法律案沒有成為法律案不能夠先問大法官的意見這呂太郎講的"},{"start":436.943,"end":457.635,"text":"在立法院公報白紙黑字他第二段怎麼講的在我們條文49條裡面是就其行使職權認為法律未接的法規範他基本上已經有一個法律的效力在裡面才有如果立法院還沒有通過總統還沒有公佈實施他基本上還沒有法規範的問題"},{"start":459.978,"end":480.551,"text":"這是當初憲法訴訟法在審查的時候我那時候第一次當立法委員在立法院裡面跟立法院跟司法院的秘書長呂太郎彼此之間的對答來請教一下司法院的官員司法院的官員當初在立法院推動憲法訴訟法的時候當時秘書長講的話算不算話來請副秘書長"},{"start":486.718,"end":514.069,"text":"不好意思喔 對廳長沒有不敬啊但你的成績不夠啊這個要請副秘書長回答當初呂太郎是在立法院裡面欺騙立法委員嗎是這樣嗎還是現在反正呂太郎他也高升大法官了不關他的事了所以現在的司法院沒有要認賬當初呂太郎當秘書長的時候在立法院所講的話"},{"start":516.505,"end":545.197,"text":"來 請教副秘書長這個部分我們尊重當時的那個呂秘書長的意見當時的呂秘書長是代表他個人嗎他是代表司法院來立法院針對憲法訴訟法如何解釋適用立法規範的意思是什麼到立法院來進行立法說明憲法訴訟法當初提到立法院來審議的是哪一個機關就是司法院嘛"},{"start":546.547,"end":574.493,"text":"立法院在審法案的時候針對你們當初憲法訴訟法的設計提出了問題立法過程當中立法過程當中立法者的原意到底是什麼就透過這樣的詢答很清楚的展現出來了嘛所以我才問嘛司法院的立場是改變了嗎是遇到民進黨有政治上的需求遇到綠色"},{"start":576.533,"end":589.265,"text":"有政治上的需求我們台灣的法律制度是可以配合著執政黨有政治上的需求就變來變去嗎是這樣嗎來 請司法院副秘書長表達立場"},{"start":593.342,"end":606.98,"text":"法律的解釋就是當時立法者的討論的意思這當然是一種解釋所以我們尊重當時黎秘書長的意見剛才也講了就是說在限訴法第一條它可以規範類型裡頭的第一款"},{"start":609.884,"end":625.615,"text":"法規範的那個審查這邊的那個法律當然是指已經生效那個法律可是就是這個地方是不是還有46條這個地方的一個那個解釋當然這個是個案在試用的時候那是憲法法律你們可以這樣子變來變去喔"},{"start":627.876,"end":649.094,"text":"同一個司法院2019年要審限訴法來立法院說一套現在配合民進黨政府的需求又講另外一套為什麼這樣的司法人民沒有辦法信任為什麼這樣的司法人民沒有辦法信任為什麼司法的公信力會不斷的降低我希望"},{"start":649.855,"end":671.429,"text":"司法院回去好好深思這個問題第二個比較小技術上面的問題我要拜託司法院的官員以後送來立法院的報告這不是新聞司法院送來立法院的報告嚴肅對待我為什麼這樣子講有一個東西叫做定暫時狀態的假處分嗎法律用語是這樣嗎"},{"start":674.202,"end":702.75,"text":"應該是定暫時狀態的處分吧怎麼會有定暫時狀態的假處分你說一般法律系的學生一般的假處分跟定暫時狀態的處分分不清楚這還情有可原司法院犯這種錯誤就贏效大方了啦你同一份喔送到立法院來的書面資料又有寫定暫時狀態的假處分又有寫定暫時狀態的處分大家看了以後啊覺得哇"},{"start":703.61,"end":725.245,"text":"我們司法院的水準是這樣 讓人嘆為觀止啊副秘書長 我有沒有說錯這邊是一個疏失是一個疏失嘛 你不要以後讓法律系的學生說老師不對啊 我們司法院的官員送來立法院的報告都有寫定暫時狀態的假處分啊所以這個詞的使用沒有問題啊"},{"start":728.655,"end":748.122,"text":"基本啊 法律人交出來的東西要由法律人交出來的樣子這個是我非常卑微的要求拜託司法院以後注意這些事情 可以嗎謝謝指正 我們以後會把頓耗加上去頓耗 你多了一個假字耶這個是頓耗的問題嗎訂暫時狀態處分 然後頓耗來來來 第一頁"},{"start":753.41,"end":761.356,"text":"定暫時狀態假處分第一頁的時候第一頁就寫錯啦這是一個頓耗的問題嗎是嗎你有沒有看到錯了就錯了啦好來 請法務部我非常的困惑"},{"start":779.574,"end":787.693,"text":"我在第一個第一次當立委的時候針對通緝犯查緝系統必須要處理好的這件事情"},{"start":788.789,"end":817.225,"text":"我講了好幾次喔我講了好幾次喔通緝犯查緝系統要統合你們那個時候拖了半天政委羅秉成結果搞了半天啊搞一個東西出來我說調查局有一個刑事警察局有一個高等檢察署有一個一人一把號各吹各的調就是不願意統合起來林秉文這個重大的通緝犯喔被通緝了"},{"start":818.426,"end":834.33,"text":"結果找了半天我第一時間啊三個平台通通都沒有三個平台通通都沒有結果被我質詢了以後刑事警察局趕快補上去了請問台灣高檢署的系統補充了沒有"},{"start":836.231,"end":852.445,"text":"跟委員報告因為林秉文這個個案現在是在審判中所以是由院方來發布通緝所以台灣高檢署的通緝系統只要訴訟細數到院方在台灣高檢署的系統就沒有"},{"start":852.985,"end":881.921,"text":"因為我們各個機關發佈通緝的時候呢它都會在這個上面沒有顯示的第四個系統是全國的監警調人員都可以直接查詢的那個系統雖然因為各自隱私的關係所以這個全部都可以查詢的系統是沒有這個圖像的但是這個就是我康出啊跟你們講就要建置一個統一的通緝犯系統的理由嘛你有各自上的限制又沒有照片"},{"start":882.961,"end":899.45,"text":"對 所以那個系統啊怎麼發揮公告的效果這個公告是要看有沒有必要向國內的人民來公告我先停一下你覺得林秉文有沒有必要跟國內的人民公告我想新聞報導都已經有所以只要用新聞的報導就可以取代通緝辦的查緝系統嗎這個是 因為我們現在是這個樣子嗎"},{"start":903.292,"end":927.15,"text":"這三個系統是各個犯罪偵查的機關辦刑事警察局、調查局跟高檢署他們根據自己業務的需要自行製作的系統我請法務部再回去看一看當初為什麼會建制要求建制一個統一的系統回去再看一看你們繼續不做我就很清楚的跟你講你們繼續不做我就一定反映在預算審查上"},{"start":932.045,"end":961.309,"text":"全國人民都可以當一個公正的裁判對不起喔 我現在還沒有請你講話可以請你不要插話嗎可以請你不要插話嗎可以請你不要插話嗎全國的人民都可以做一個評判遇到特定跟民進黨權貴有關係的大咖通緝犯查詢系統不敢登啦不敢登啦"},{"start":963.486,"end":990.123,"text":"這樣子的司法部門要如何取得人民的信賴最後一個問題啊檢察官跟無乃人在這邊驗癮黃委員 黃委員先等一下這樣喔 因為我以前組織會議一路以來我的慣例就是如此盡量讓大家暢所欲言所以以前不管吳思耀委員或是柯建民委員或是中召委我都讓你們講 那我會站起來那就大家各自能夠"},{"start":991.744,"end":1011.497,"text":"控制一下時間那待會中召委如果你要講兩小時我也可以陪在這邊陪你站好來最後一個問題檢察官跟無乃人進出高檔的餐廳一客七千塊起跳包廂低銷六萬法務部說啟動行政調查調查出來沒有"},{"start":1012.512,"end":1031.739,"text":"目前還沒有還要多久這個我們回去再跟高檢署跟北檢來詢問一下好 什麼時候可以回覆這麼簡單的事情要拖這麼久晚一點就可以回覆辦案的效率太差了吧這麼簡單的事情要拖這麼久辦案的效率可以這麼差喔"},{"start":1033.764,"end":1059.238,"text":"請法務部啊 回去啊清楚的告訴全責機關因為是法務部跟社會講說要啟動行政調查嘛所以我當然就問法務部嘛到底還需要多久這樣可以嗎馬上回覆喔看你們到底還要調查多久因為全國人民在等著看啊我們的檢察官是什麼官僧啊是什麼官僧啊最後 主席我只講一件事啦"},{"start":1063.2,"end":1091.878,"text":"我今天在這邊質詢我站在上面質詢鍾嘉斌從頭到尾在下面騷擾我不想因為他的騷擾而中斷了我的質詢基本上你主持會議我都尊重那至於鍾嘉斌指控我超時鍾嘉斌你回去自己看看啦你以前超時的時候有人在下面干擾你嗎不要這麼沒有品啦好 謝謝好 謝謝各位因為基本上我自己主持會議"}]}},{"id":"158875","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158875","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1aa99ec54b0ca0ceb01cb09e2058dd4a024204766f4a2623bdca7091789dec401d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:47:29 - 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謝謝主席有請我們副秘書長跟黃次長副秘書長 次長"},{"start":19.864,"end":38.638,"text":"早安今天我們所要討論的這個專題我想也是作為憲法憲訴法修法之後的一個延伸的討論自從憲訴法提出之後到委員會審議還有院會的表決受到社會"},{"start":39.558,"end":55.305,"text":"諸多的這個關注而行政院作為一個能夠提出復議的這個憲政機關在本月初正式復議之後那卻未能獲得這個邀請前來立法院做說明最終這個復議案也沒有通過"},{"start":56.065,"end":75.967,"text":"也是在我們意料之中那也看到上週在司法節學術研討會上我們這個謝明揚代理院長在致詞的時候也指出目前司法面臨許多挑戰包括限訴法的這個修法對憲法法庭運作會造成的相關問題"},{"start":77.208,"end":101.879,"text":"由於在去年的這個12月三讀通過的這個版本是在表決前所提出的再修正動議那跟我們10月份委員會所審查的這個版本有所不同也沒有徵詢過司法院的意見我想先就叫我們複密通過的這個新法對於憲法法庭造成的這種實務運作上會有什麼樣的困境"},{"start":104.147,"end":119.237,"text":"好 謝謝委員就是那個伊犁法院三讀通過的限訴法30條修正的這個條文呢那個憲法訴訟的案件類型就是除了87條的統一解釋法令還維持原來的平決門檻"},{"start":120.498,"end":133.461,"text":"也就是說大法官現有的那個總額過半數參與評議那參與評議的大法官過半數同意之外呢像是其他的案件類型裁判及法規範的那個憲法審查還有地方自治保障總統及副總統彈劾政黨違憲解散還有43條的那個暫時處分呢這一些它的那個門檻大法官參與評議的人數呢不可以低於10人"},{"start":148.724,"end":152.273,"text":"那同意違憲裁判人數呢不可以低於9人"},{"start":153.923,"end":178.936,"text":"那有關那個機關爭議的案件呢大法官參與評議的人數是不可以低於10人的所以呢目前就是我們現狀情況在任的大法官目前是8個人所以說有關案件就是有幾個類型一個是案件是否受理還有一個統一解釋法令等案件呢因為這一些就是"},{"start":179.756,"end":206.279,"text":"相關規定沒有修正所以目前都還是依現行的方式在處理至於說其他的這些案件類型它在新法公佈生效之後實務運作這個部分是屬於憲法法庭審判的事項我們司法行政也是維護大法官的獨立審判這個部分我們就不表示意見"},{"start":207.58,"end":232.039,"text":"好那我們規定這個參與評議和做成違憲的這個大法官人數然後剛剛複密有講了就算人數這個我們現在看人數是不夠就算民眾的陳情案子我們也沒辦法正常的去做這個審理以目前來看就是剛才講到那個上訴那個案件如果說是受理之後的裁判跟法規範那個憲法審查可是目前嗎還是說新法"},{"start":237.082,"end":263.908,"text":"新法制定之後對這個部分還是沒辦法那對於我們這個憲法法庭的這個運作會造成實質的這個自愛難行的困境甚至會完全癱瘓這個我想我們應該現在目前應該有感覺到了那不利於我們權力的這個保障那不過也有人持反對的這個立場認為說只要盡快的補滿大法官的這個缺口就能夠解決"},{"start":264.628,"end":278.152,"text":"那在這個設下如此高的這個門檻的情況之下是否在運作上仍有可能會導致我們相關的這個審議的效率會降低的情形這個部分我是不是能夠讓那個書記廳長回答"},{"start":281.737,"end":309.026,"text":"跟委員報告就是如果以新法將來這個制度來看的話那除了剛剛副秘書長說明的之外那因為有關於受理與否以及統一解釋法律命令這個部分的規定沒有修改那這個部分當然就這個部分我們可以持續的來運作那其實目前我們八位大法官也是分三個審查庭那分授原本應該有15個大法官所分授的一個全部的新案跟未結案來持續處理"},{"start":310.066,"end":319.725,"text":"那至於說其他類型的案件那因為新法上路之後他能不能運作如何運作那就是審判事項我們就不方便說明好"},{"start":320.575,"end":342.712,"text":"那由於我們這個立法院在週一的傍晚已經將復議案的結果支付我們總統還有韓副行政院了那根據憲法這個規定最晚必須在1月23日完成公佈尋求的這個救濟手段還尚待評估那我想請教我們副議員跟黃志就針對"},{"start":343.633,"end":359.546,"text":"你們的這個專案專業的判斷提出預防性的這個權力救濟是不是現階段最可行的一個途徑我想這個部分不是司法本院所能夠回答的謝謝委員"},{"start":362.152,"end":385.197,"text":"我想因為這個目前我們法務部並沒有接到行政院任何關於這個相關議題的研議的交辦所以我們也不方便表示意見那正如剛才司法院副委員所說的委員所提的問題事實上未來涉及審判的核心事項我們為尊重這個審判獨立我們也不便表示意見謝謝"},{"start":387.658,"end":409.213,"text":"既然憲法法庭的設置是為了維護人民的權利和憲政的秩序那就不能夠停擺最嚴重會被影響的會是人民和機關尋求救濟或是解決憲法爭議的權利不論是我們司法院、行政院還是立法院都必須去維護我們憲法法庭的"},{"start":410.334,"end":429.751,"text":"實質運作,我相信這是民眾所期待的另外一個議題我想請教兩位就是近年來國安洩密、共諜事件頻繁包括近期討論的富康聯盟黨涉嫌收受中共的金援作為解放軍的內應"},{"start":431.232,"end":450.621,"text":"那在去年以違反國安法被台中高分檢起訴那現在由這個台中高分院審理當中我們也看到國安局提出共諜案滲透手法的這個分析從2024年案件來分析主要是勾結黑幫來發展武裝內應開設地下錢莊來"},{"start":454.202,"end":481.583,"text":"引誘投共 滲透我們在地的宮廟還有成立統戰組織動員來介入選舉以及透過網路的平台來佈建組織等等的這些方式那中共的這個滲透目標 管道 守法還有墓地可以說是五花八門 無孔不入我們法務部調查局和我們的檢察署如何來因應"},{"start":483.101,"end":484.608,"text":"這個偵辦的量能是否充足"},{"start":485.325,"end":512.735,"text":"是 跟我們報告國安案件事實上當然我們非常的重視也列為全國檢查機關偵辦案件的重點所以目前我們動員偵查能量會全力投入相關案件的偵訪那麼由最高檢察署的檢察中長來統合所有案件的情資並由告點檢察署來督導執行會結合偵查保防跟情報系統來綜合研判之後投入偵辦"},{"start":514.035,"end":518.98,"text":"所以在這兩年來我們其實也辦了很多指標性的案件也會持續用最高的規格來辦理相關的業務"},{"start":526.22,"end":545.254,"text":"好 那由於我們這個國安的這個案件 具有機敏性和高度的專業性那會需要和國防還有國安單位來配合那針對重要的這些議題共同來討論 也需要提出對策來研議那來提升我們辦案的專業"},{"start":546.174,"end":559.09,"text":"國安局的報告有提及為了因應中共多元的這種滲透手法包括情報機關還有我們軍中的保防單位以及法務部的檢調部門已經都建立起協作的機制"},{"start":562.313,"end":577.803,"text":"就這一次這樣子我想請教次長您所了解的法務部是如何來協作所謂的國安共同威脅的圖像這個協作的這個機制未來應該要如何來精進以提高我們國安案件的這個辦案的成效"},{"start":578.143,"end":593.988,"text":"是跟委員報告陳柱剛所說的我們在最高檢察署跟台高檢署都有成立相關單位我們在各檢察機關也設國安的專組尤其對於國安法剛委員所提到這種發展組織的案件它是由高檢署來偵辦"},{"start":595.849,"end":613.865,"text":"台高檢署跟分署進來 辦案的績效也一直在提升事務外見發生的時候 剛剛委員所提到的跟相關的軍事單位的聯繫平台是由最高檢察署來統合所以我們會結合軍事的情緒來源充分跟軍事機關橫向溝通 徵詢意見來強化我們的偵辦效能"},{"start":617.386,"end":639.645,"text":"好,這我們期待那在上週這個陸委會的副主委提出呼籲要把這個國安的案件當作特殊的案件來處理那並提出應該設立專門的這種國安法庭但是在我們司法院後來的這個澄清資訊裡面看到我們112年當時配合國安法第19條的施行"},{"start":641.687,"end":670.488,"text":"司法院已經修正相關的辦法要求各地院還有高院及分院對國安法這個案件成立專案法庭或專股辦理因此想先就叫我們複密這個針對國安軍事專業的這個案件所含括的這個案件類型我們各地院高院和分院是否都已經成立這個國安專庭或是專股來承辦案件"},{"start":671.069,"end":696.354,"text":"好謝謝委員垂詢是的在那個112年12月就是本院因為那個國安法那個修正之後呢就是修正了我們的那個司法事務分配規範法那就目前所有的普通法院全部的各個法院全部都已經成立了那個專庭或者是專股來辦理已經都成立了對全部的法院"},{"start":697.363,"end":705.755,"text":"好 那我想再就教一下是否我們這個政府院長懸缺的導致設置進度停滯 跟這個有沒有關係"},{"start":709.577,"end":725.255,"text":"是沒有那個設置停滯的那個問題就是全部的法院每一個法院都已經有那個專庭了那他們那個專庭的那個法官呢他們也都要那個接受那個相當的那個專業訓練就是也有規定一年最少要12個小時的專業訓練"},{"start":729.019,"end":756.673,"text":"好 那我們這個國安的這個案件是很大的一個題目那尤其是在當前中共滲透變本加厲那更值得關注同時也是在院紀之間跨部會共同要來努力防堵的一個破口那以確保我們國家的安全礙於這個詢答時間有限那後續如果還有機會的話再跟我們相關部會做討論謝謝副秘密還有我們的次長謝謝委員"},{"start":758.194,"end":758.215,"text":"好 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初期委員與主法定人數先來開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議一書"},{"start":1941.147,"end":1968.92,"text":"立法院第十一屆第二會期交通委員會第十九次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一四年一月八日星期三上午九十至下午一時三十二分地點本院紅樓二零一會議室出席委員林佩祥等十五人列席委員王逸川等十四人立席官員交通部政務次長陳彥博等主席陳昭吉委員數月報告四項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定議事錄確定邀請交通部進行專題報告並備質詢本日會議由交通部政務次長陳彥博等"},{"start":1970.3,"end":1991.238,"text":"報告後藉由委員林沛翔等21人提出質詢軍經交通部政務次長陳彥博及相關人員分別予以答覆決定一報告及詢問完畢二為張家俊的二人所提書面質詢均列入紀錄並刊登公報三委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關建樹以書面答覆散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1996.718,"end":2016.921,"text":"好 請問在場各位委員對議事錄有沒有意見好 沒有意見 我們議事錄確定那我們現在介紹在場的委員黃建豪委員邱若驊委員李昆哲委員以及陳書業召委"},{"start":2023.274,"end":2050.396,"text":"好 接下來介紹列席人員今天是我們交通部陳彥博政務次長陳次長以及公共藝術系監理師林福山司長法制處許鴻達處長以及陸政級道安司蔡蘇冰副次長公務局陳文瑞局長高速公務局趙新華局長"},{"start":2053.492,"end":2068.547,"text":"運輸研究所林濟國所長內政部警政署交通組陳明志組長法務部廖江縣參事司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳陳彥霖法官"},{"start":2080.401,"end":2106.971,"text":"好 本次會議審查道路交通管理處罰條例我們進行逐條的討論現在有沒有委員要針對相關的提案 提案的委員來進行說明好那我們請交通部陳彥博次長報告"},{"start":2109.636,"end":2112.102,"text":"你們這邊寫時間七到八分鐘嘛你們看來說明"},{"start":2134.589,"end":2148.709,"text":"主席 各位委員大家早今天應邀聯席委員會就未遭變遭車牌及其隱匿車牌方式的查緝以防制及如何有效杜絕無照駕駛"},{"start":2149.91,"end":2164.579,"text":"倉管的亂象進行專案的一個報告並就這個洪委員等應該是等委員所提出來的大概總共有20條的修正草案本部警就來提供下面的一個處理的意見"},{"start":2165.379,"end":2192.724,"text":"那在這20案裡面呢,大概洪委員孟凱,黃建豪委員,林俊憲委員,王洪瑋委員,鍾嘉斌委員,徐宇貞委員,陳樹業委員,海靈德福委員,還有徐富奎委員等這個9案呢,大概在前一次的這個,應該是113年11月18日的第11屆的第二會期的第14會議裡頭,大概有報告,而且也有所詢問,那決議呢是擇期處理。"},{"start":2193.624,"end":2217.051,"text":"那本次大概新增有關魯明哲委員、羅廷瑋委員、何欣淳委員、林思敏委員、徐巧欣委員、羅明財委員、顏寬恆委員、楊瓊英委員、林月琴委員還有張宏祿及蔡奇昌等11案有關處罰條例第12條、第12條之一跟第85條之三的提案來加重對於偽造號牌"},{"start":2217.891,"end":2242.437,"text":"的一個相關的一個修正那本部競表這個改配那有關處罰條例未照變財未照號牌的防治的作為的修正草案其實本部也極為重視那也有相關的一個版本在行政院正在處理我給跟大家稍微說明一下我們目前處理的情形跟我們你打算修正的一個方向首先就是這個"},{"start":2245.317,"end":2271.782,"text":"行政院本部大概在去年11月19號已經函報行政院那經過行政院的一個審查以後大概12月19號的審查以後認為說有關末路的部分是不是有相關的一個處理的方式跟這個比例的原則是不是應該再加以考量所以就這一部分本部大概在去年的年底最後一天"},{"start":2272.442,"end":2291.19,"text":"大概邀集了跨部會 這裡其中包含了內政部 法務部各直轄市政府單位 大家共同研商所以對於相關委員也是今天大家很關切的一個末路的部分做了一些處理這處理包含了針對這個偽造他人的號牌 特別強調"},{"start":2292.611,"end":2316.811,"text":"他偽造的是別人的號牌不是自己原來那一部車的偽造他人的號牌或者是肇事致人受傷的這種情形或10年內累犯就是在10年內再有偽造號牌的這種情形來置身他人公益的公共利益交通違規等有危害這個道路交通安全之餘我們把他處於末路車輛"},{"start":2318.232,"end":2341.623,"text":"這樣的一個條文的修正在等一下如果討論的時候我們也並案提出也就是所謂大家可以來參照本部所提出來的這樣的一個修正因為這個修正也是行政機關跨機關的一個討論的結果那這樣的一個結果我們在今年的這個1月13日已經送到行政院來續審"},{"start":2342.924,"end":2364.901,"text":"那有關這個委員提到的加重未照號牌的處罰所擬具的相關的這個道路處罰條例的修正草案我們還是建議也就是說本部所提出來的跟行政機關大家共同討論的這個條文能夠有機會併案跟各委員提出來的版本共同審查"},{"start":2365.481,"end":2390.98,"text":"但是最後呢 我們還是尊重委員會的一個審查的一個結果我想我就這部分 就今天處罰條例的部分提出本部的一個看法 以上 謝謝好 那接下來法務部要不要 廖參事要補充說明還是大概補充說明在協調的時候在座位上講就可以了"},{"start":2391.926,"end":2396.016,"text":"那我們提案委員這個有補充說明的要職說明羅廷維委員請說明時間兩分鐘"},{"start":2403.865,"end":2421.314,"text":"好 非常感謝今天召委排審我覺得這個非常接地氣感謝盧明哲委員我想近年來大家都知道這個日益猖獗這個假車牌事件已經造成了社會危害治安的一個重要的缺失尤其可以看到這個假車牌被網路上說是藝術品"},{"start":2422.595,"end":2439.661,"text":"當然今天我們要探討的是所謂的道家條例的一個修改當然我們也希望未來不管是在源頭的管制因為境外輸入這個關卡我們一定要在海關的部分加強檢驗但是今天所提到的修法的部分我們希望針對駕駛人懸掛偽造車牌的一個行為將罰還由現行的新台幣3600元以上"},{"start":2447.044,"end":2465.458,"text":"10800元以下調整為新台幣15000元以上5萬元以下以提升違規的一個成本達到更強的嚇阻效果當然我們希望能夠更加的提升有的人說要10萬以上那我們也希望今天透過探討大家來了解到底怎麼樣的一個方式可以更加的嚇阻這樣的行為"},{"start":2466.318,"end":2487.764,"text":"另外針對違反第一項第三款的行為新增規定處以新台幣10萬元罰款並沒入違規車輛藉此彰顯法規的威嚴杜絕惡意的違法我想修法都是透過加重處罰以及嚴格執行希望能夠提升整體的一個效力讓法律能夠來真正執行到正義"},{"start":2488.684,"end":2512.198,"text":"減少偽造車牌的行為帶來治安跟交通的隱憂同時藉由規範的強化保障我們民眾的行車安全維護公共利益我們希望能夠更快加速的進行透過修法來建構更完善的車輛管理以及執法制度打造更好的一個環境我們也再一次感謝昭緯以及我們所有朝野的立委大家一起來努力也希望交通部能夠更加積極"},{"start":2515.852,"end":2520.816,"text":"好 謝謝羅委員 那麼天安委員 黃建豪委員因為待會協調的時候 我們要進行協調 好 來"},{"start":2529.261,"end":2540.729,"text":"好謝謝召委排審這個道交條例第12條關於偽變造車牌的問題那本來的這個提案的意旨第一個部分當然是罰則的部分因為原始的條文是罰3600到10800那我們之前在這個詢答這裡提過這個3600到10800基本上"},{"start":2545.993,"end":2566.379,"text":"跟這偽造車牌的價格相比起來沒有什麼嚇阻能力既然都能夠去做偽造車牌了所以罰這個3600到10800沒有什麼太大意義所以把它提升到6000到3600以下這個是一個罰則的部分但另外一個層次是指說除了錢之外我想最最最大的資產應該是那一輛車所以原始的條文是從2或9"},{"start":2568.039,"end":2595.881,"text":"第一項第二款及第九款的車輛沒入但是我們的想法是說應該從第一項第二款至第九款全部都應該把車輛沒入我想車輛沒入對於使用變造、偽造車法以及借以他人使用等等的這些行為才有實際上的嚇阻能力所以這部分我們希望待會在協調的時候大家還是要了解說我們當初為什麼第二至九款都應該沒入它的原因就是期待說透過沒入車輛這樣子處罰行為"},{"start":2597.862,"end":2624.863,"text":"那大家在出借或者是在製造變賣相關車牌或者是車輛的時候車輛的持有人他自己也能夠去了解到這個法律的效果不要說好像這個如果只有本來只有二級酒款或是只有一支車輛的保管等等的話其實對於他的財產本身並沒有造成任何事實上的影響那如果能夠對他的財產造成事實影響的話我想對於這個出借車輛或是變造車牌等等的行為才有實際上的嚇阻效果以上說明 謝謝"},{"start":2626.991,"end":2638.516,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員那我們現在就進行道路交通管理處罰條例的協商以各提案還有要補充說明嗎"},{"start":2640.835,"end":2660.187,"text":"以各提案條次順序進行討論並同時請議事人員宣讀條文如有相關修正動議附帶決議一併宣讀交通部有提供建議修正條文彙整表待會請各位參與就此進行協商好我們休息三分鐘"},{"start":2687.025,"end":2687.265,"text":"蕃茄"},{"start":2736.573,"end":2746.161,"text":"好 我們繼續開會現在就開始進行協商相關的修正條文首先第12條條文各位委員 李昆哲委員"},{"start":2751.141,"end":2779.975,"text":"好謝謝召委今天道教的修正案主要是處理假車牌的問題那大家主要的提案就是提高大家的提案主要都是要提高罰則我們都希望透過提高罰則來遏止假車牌犯案的問題那提高罰則希望也要加強宣導那"},{"start":2782.028,"end":2805.489,"text":"多次跟交通部討論假車牌的問題除了提高罰則加強宣導之外其實有三個方向也必須要請交通部去注意跟推動第一是源頭的阻斷第二是要加強查緝第三是針對偽造車牌的受害者我們必須要損害減免"},{"start":2807.21,"end":2828.212,"text":"那第一個從源頭阻斷我們希望交通部要強化車牌的防衛功能防衛功能要建立短中長期的防衛機制強化的這個策略我們希望交通部跟數位部還有財政部來合作請數位部協助"},{"start":2829.053,"end":2843.532,"text":"下架這些網路購買的資訊要請財政部關務署從曝光開始就要阻斷偽造車牌從國外流入而且要強化車牌的防衛功能"},{"start":2844.673,"end":2872.784,"text":"另外也要阻絕境外的這種邊境的管制增列這些專屬進口貨品的分類號列加強進口貨品查驗及通報機制來溯源查緝那很重要就是要阻斷網路的資訊那就是定期巡查網路的銷售資訊下架偽造車牌的產品包括這些網購的平台社群的平台"},{"start":2873.504,"end":2896.712,"text":"那加強查緝的部分就是利用這種車牌偽造的難度要增加就是提高防衛設計的辨識度來加強查緝的速度跟進度那要跟警政署來建立聯訪的這個機制來提供建立聯訪機制利用e-tag這種使用異常的情況"},{"start":2898.992,"end":2917.1,"text":"來建立這種偽造車牌的資料庫提供給警政署來加強查緝那另外這些有關於對於損害的解免就是針對偽造車牌的受害者免除更換車牌的製作費跟行政費來針對"},{"start":2919.861,"end":2939.185,"text":"遭錯誤舉發的受害者進行重新的規則並對偽造車牌犯罪人進行追責這就是要避免錯誤的舉發來保護受害者我們這個道交處理的部分是希望使用假車牌的罰則透過罰則來"},{"start":2942.446,"end":2965.246,"text":"警醒大家這是一個重要的方案那當然也要配合加強查緝還有阻斷源頭請交通部跟相關部會來協力合作落實處理假車牌的議題等一下也請你們簡單說明一下目前推動的狀況是如何以上好 接下來羅庭惟委員"},{"start":2966.767,"end":2994.608,"text":"好 剛剛有委員所提到其實跟我們提案說明不謀而合大家都有這樣子的一個概念希望交通部能夠加強包括速發部以及還有所謂的關口的部分要如何加強管理那我想今天就12條來說我想先請問一下交通部我們更關心的不管是增加罰款的這個提高其實剛剛黃建豪委員提到一點我覺得我非常的認同就是汽車到底可不可以沒路"},{"start":2995.749,"end":3003,"text":"如果汽車可以沒路我想罰款金額我們都還可以再探討但是如果汽車不能沒路"},{"start":3004.071,"end":3027.852,"text":"還可以再給這一個當事者繼續去駕駛這一個車輛那我想提高罰款再多也沒有用因為沒入這個車輛才是最重要的一個重點所以違照車牌到底能不能沒收這個車輛交通部有沒有自愛難行的地方我希望講清楚說明白然後以利我們在12條的時候再訂定更嚴格的法案"},{"start":3029.673,"end":3048.722,"text":"好那這邊稍微等一下現在發言順序這個黃建豪林俊憲委員以及蔡英章委員那也拜託各位委員那這個條文三大重點第一個大家覺得罰款提高到什麼樣程度也最後結論的時候幫忙建議一下第二個目錄車輛"},{"start":3049.702,"end":3078.418,"text":"有些委員提的是有條件有期間的有些是直接沒錄那這個的部分也希望在各位發言的時候能夠給一些相關的建議來黃天豪委員好 謝謝張委那針對這本條文分析是覺得說第一個價錢的部分本來是3600到10800那既然大家都把提案提高所以基本上我覺得法案法案有提高這件事情大家就有共識那多少錢我們有兼職一定要多少錢那看大家覺得比較合理價錢多少這個是可以討論的"},{"start":3079.318,"end":3101.637,"text":"但是針對沒入車輛因為這個交通部的建議修正條文是說當場一致保管該車輛那我們就要問就是說因為這個條文裡面並沒有寫說當場一致保管該車輛的狀況是說一致保管多久還是說他當天就可以繳個罰單所以他就領回了還是說要一致保管一段期間還是怎麼樣因為就我原始的提案的精神希望就是我提案還是要沒入啦"},{"start":3102.017,"end":3115.905,"text":"當中的原因就是說有兩個因為其實假車牌有很多的情況一種當然就是他可能因為超速或因為其他原因他的這個牌照被扣角所以他必須使用偽造車牌這種可能相對是比較沒有這麼沒有這麼惡意的這是一種"},{"start":3117.486,"end":3138.173,"text":"另外一種就是髒車嘛要犯罪用的那種是重大行駕會發生的事情那這種東西如果他能夠輕易的把車輛領回的話他繼續去犯罪所以我覺得針對沒入車廂這件事情還是要去做明確的規範跟討論那再來就是一致保管因為這個條文裡面沒有寫一致保管多久所以我還是覺得說如果要一致保管"},{"start":3139.713,"end":3152.744,"text":"某種應該一致保管也可以我們可以討論一下這要多久呢這是當天就領回呢還是你要一直保管半年一年等等的讓他增加他使用偽變造車牌的成本應該這樣講我們提到所謂車輛問題應該這樣因為今天前面前面講價錢的價金發放發放多少"},{"start":3156.147,"end":3185.006,"text":"大家可以討論那一旦一致公司覺得說你不能說罰款比去買車牌還便宜啦那就沒有意義嘛所以第一個當然是罰款至少提到高跟違變到車牌一樣的價錢以上那再來就是車輛的使用的便利性如果今天我當天我就有錢啦我就犯罪啊他就犯罪不管他是這個詐騙集團也好還是博弈集團也好還是他說重大刑事犯罪也好搶劫等等的那他既然要去做這個事情了這個車輛或罰金對他來說不是一件很麻煩的事情"},{"start":3185.626,"end":3211.438,"text":"如果今天我們在道路上有抓到這樣的車子那只是一致保管然後我繳完罰單我就會把車領回那其實對於我們這個條文原始的立法精神我想是不符合的所以這部分的話我覺得待會交通朋友要說明一下到底你們覺得一致保管車輛有沒有期限的問題還是有沒有等級的問題那再來如果真的是末路車輛會有什麼問題會有什麼會欺害到任何的權益嗎還是怎麼樣這部分可能大家請你們說明一下以上 謝謝"},{"start":3213.119,"end":3230.21,"text":"林俊憲委員好謝謝主席我們各位同仁我們大家今天來關心這個主要都是腳車牌的問題我就覺得我有稍微比較一下我們各位同仁的版本大家比較有共識都是提高花款"},{"start":3231.09,"end":3249.776,"text":"那提高8萬有兩種一種是下限要不要提高那上限看起來有共識都是3萬6就是比照嚴重超出3萬6那下限因為你把下限提高的話會牽動到很多其他不同的違規狀態"},{"start":3251.904,"end":3269.4,"text":"所以我是覺得我們下線不要動但是我們可以定你只要是用偽造車牌一律罰最高法就是三萬六這樣下線就沒有影響了你偽造車牌我就給你罰三萬六那你下線不要動因為下線他有其他違規樣態變得他再逐一來討論要不要提高下線所以"},{"start":3275.245,"end":3297.763,"text":"本席的提案是三萬六三千六到三萬六那我們可以比如說家定你只要用偽造車牌我就沒有Range的問題我就直接給你划最高法第二個就是你要不要把它車輛沒入交通部我覺得我們目前道安條例車輛沒入它其實只有幾種樣態我是建議大家考慮一下比例原則如果你是酒駕"},{"start":3303.388,"end":3326.723,"text":"或者是獨駕 你吸毒駕駛 或者是你酒駕那你被抓到 你的車輛有沒有沒路沒有啦 我們獨駕跟酒駕都沒有沒收車輛他有附帶就是說 你要肇事 致人重傷或死亡 那車輛才沒路或者是說 你的車輛是沒有牌照 照理講你不能上路"},{"start":3327.803,"end":3353.491,"text":"結果呢你是沒有車牌的車子你還上路那你還造成危險駕駛那車輛才沒路另外就是你個人沒有駕照那麼你開車或者騎機車你肇事互代條件就致人於重傷或死亡這樣車輛才沒路也就是說我們的目前沒路車輛沒路的樣態就是這幾種這交通部待會要說明清楚"},{"start":3354.571,"end":3366.582,"text":"那如果我們直接就要把用假車牌訂到時那大家可以考量一下是不是比例元首的問題如果他這個車輛是租來的我給他租台車然後把他用一個假車牌那這樣車輛沒有任務那你出租車場或者是車輛是借來的"},{"start":3377.572,"end":3397.558,"text":"我給盧明澤招惹借貸的時候我給你用個假車牌你這樣車子也被國家沒收這樣是不是有錯殺無辜的可能還有我不知道各位同仁有沒有注意到一個關聯性就是使用假車牌大增的時間點跟我們修法把那個嚴重超速由超速60"},{"start":3398.678,"end":3414.993,"text":"改為超速40就算嚴重超速同一時間那其實相對的啦你政府不管中央或地方政府你對於速限合不合理我們在交會會討論很多次你有些地方的速限實在是不合理"},{"start":3415.914,"end":3438.103,"text":"樹線四十五十你是要多少人去這裡或者是兩線道忽然間開過回四線道你樹線一樣五十一樣會造成很多民眾不小心就超速那麼如果他因為嚴重超速車牌被拿走如果這輛車是他每天上班必用的或者是他做生意做個小生意必用的"},{"start":3438.943,"end":3456.354,"text":"是要載小孩啦或者載老人要用的所以很多人就去買腳車牌我們的重點是要嚇阻腳車牌啦所以我是覺得提高緩緩啦這個大家有共識沒問題那至於你要不要沒路我請大家考量到會不會有一些"},{"start":3457.415,"end":3480.002,"text":"除外狀況啦或是有一些值得值得值得稍微有一點空間的那個狀況然後再來比較就是說你車子租來或借來或者說你再去比較其他沒路車輛的那種狀況大家也要考量一下比例原則啦所以我是覺得我們是不是也跟其他目前道交條例裡面沒路車輛"},{"start":3481.923,"end":3510.342,"text":"對於腳車牌要沒入車輛是不是也應該有附帶一個狀況例如你因為肇事或者是致人於重傷或死亡再把車輛判死刑車輛不會自己裝腳車牌啦裝腳車牌的是人你可以罰人嘛你甚至可以把他的駕照吊銷嘛但你把他的車輛給沒入那這一點我希望是不是大家我們待會討論一下 請交通部再跟各位委員說明一下相比於其他的"},{"start":3511.783,"end":3531.682,"text":"沒收車輛的樣態那這樣有沒有比例原則的一個問題好 以上 謝謝好 接下來發言順序 蔡奇章委員許智傑委員林國琛委員 陳樹葉召委陳樹葉召委發言完畢之後請相關單位先回應一波後面再來討論好 蔡奇章委員"},{"start":3534.027,"end":3540.384,"text":"謝謝趙偉大家找今天我想剛剛已經有很多委員發言我想針對這一次的修法"},{"start":3541.971,"end":3564.986,"text":"特別是在這個偽造車牌的部分我想大家剛剛都論述的很清楚本席就不再多所琢磨但它的重點立法重點所有朝野立委的版本其實都指向一個東西就是面對偽造車牌的日益猖獗大家對治安充滿著擔憂所以才會有今天修法的這個意旨"},{"start":3566.004,"end":3586.515,"text":"那剛剛俊炫也提到啦我想加嚴這個是一個大家在立法者面對社會國人大家所關心的問題一個最基本的方向跟動作我想這個都很合理但是同樣的我們要達成目標立法法跟目標之間的正相關"},{"start":3587.515,"end":3600.501,"text":"一定要非常的緊密的結合同時對於那個比例原則的考慮我想這個也是待會交通部或者接下來在這個立法上面可能要去考量的"},{"start":3601.414,"end":3628.743,"text":"所以如果修了一個法大家都希望延大家希望治安變好大家都希望違照車牌要取締但是如果最後出來過去我們已經發生過在交通部的相關修法裡面都出現過相關這些問題所以在比例的原則上面請注意拿捏但是目標很清楚第二個這個圖法不足以自省修了法律再嚴格修了法律再精彩"},{"start":3629.727,"end":3643.105,"text":"最後的相關警政司法單位不進行相關的處理這個法律放在這裡他不會自然去抓那個假車牌啦所以修法只是給執法者有一個工具可以在未來的"},{"start":3644.093,"end":3670.774,"text":"符合國人的期待的這個執法當中讓你們有工具去做這些事情所以我也特別要提醒我知道這個應該通過了這個大家應該草原沒什麼特別的意見應該最後會有很清楚的這個共識但還是要提醒修了法要怎麼去執行你們有沒有認真去執行我認為這個才是修法完之後國人會感受到立法者的用心"},{"start":3671.847,"end":3693.701,"text":"最關鍵的因素在這裡謝謝大家好 謝謝許智傑委員謝謝主席剛均憲委員跟齊昌委員提到的其實這個變造車牌一來是有可能是車手會去變造車牌這個當然是我們非常不能忍受"},{"start":3694.895,"end":3708.902,"text":"那另外一個變造車牌,現在有一個新興行業就是專門,就是你已經超過40以上車子被吊扣那車子被吊了以後呢,他就換車牌現在這新興行業好像不止這麼多人在做"},{"start":3713.144,"end":3725.234,"text":"所以這個都是上有對策下有政策嘛這個都是很多上有政策下有對策所以都有一些消小份子真的是會專法律漏洞"},{"start":3726.212,"end":3752.97,"text":"那所以剛剛其實也提到這個我們當然大家的本意都是要杜絕那另外一個就是剛剛金縣委員提到的這個車數其實真的是該研究一下啦那40以上被調扣然後呢40以上因為太很多 現在已經很多我身旁很多人都會問說超過40被調扣 你怎麼處理"},{"start":3756.432,"end":3781.519,"text":"我們就跟他說 我自己的車也可能掉一百所以表示我們自己不可能處理也不可能處理這種違法調控的問題不過就是目前真的是數量相當多所以我們是不是要檢討一下就是說整體的那包括那個超過40的還有那個就是那個喝酒請代價的那喝酒請代價 啊代價超過40"},{"start":3786.651,"end":3813.948,"text":"結果我的車也要被吊扣半年這些都是相關的問題所以就是說一來我們大家目標是一致的就是要去防止這個問題那第二就是交通部是不是研究一下包括車速包括吊扣包括變噪包括增加乏者這個都沒問題但是比例原則要設定到什麼程度"},{"start":3814.788,"end":3825.943,"text":"也希望交通部做一個比較統一的考量我覺得相關的問題還在環環相扣啦所以請交通部做一個研究等一下跟大家報告一下 謝謝好 林國成委員"},{"start":3832.694,"end":3847.56,"text":"謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早我想今天有這麼多的我們本院的同仁提出這個12條基本上這個是迫切需要那我個人的看法"},{"start":3848.26,"end":3876.953,"text":"提高華澤是每一個委員所提案的等等這所有提案這麼多案的加起來是絕對超過半數所以就代表提高華澤大家有共識但是我質疑的是否請交通部或者警政單位把偽造車牌的數量要提供一下要提供一下那嚴重到什麼程度因為我擔心的是沒入的問題"},{"start":3878.194,"end":3897.047,"text":"除了是政策像酒駕啦等等這些非常嚴重的這些事故那你現在把車子把它摸入了以後有沒有侵犯到人民財產權的問題我也要拜託司法院以及我們法務部要表示一點意見"},{"start":3898.288,"end":3918.339,"text":"不要說我們制定法令到最後他們又自愛然行或者確實是違反憲法裡面個人之財產之末日的問題這個也要列入我們今天要制定這些法令這些的考量所以我還是支持第一個提高法則第二個"},{"start":3920.06,"end":3940.897,"text":"在這個部分 請有關單位說明清楚讓我們各位委員來做判別這樣的話 這個修法會較為完整所以以上報告好 接下來陳樹葉召委然後待會請相關單位回覆一下再請修法委員 第二波"},{"start":3947.135,"end":3963.661,"text":"今天我們針對道交條例第12條的修正案剛剛很多委員都有發言也都論述得非常的清楚聽起來我們對於有關衛照車牌的部分提高罰款大家是有共識的"},{"start":3964.821,"end":3967.823,"text":"當然就是說我們也看到就是相關的統計數字有關就是偽變造車牌的舉發數真的從112年就是有這個251件嘛那一直到去年的1到10月就有1012件就是增加了大概有三倍多了"},{"start":3987.218,"end":4003.743,"text":"這個數量所以這個增加速度還真的是蠻快的這個數量也是蠻高的所以其實這個可能也會有幾個問題可能之後也要請交通部再去做一些評估跟就是做一些就是有關法律"},{"start":4004.483,"end":4017.532,"text":"修正之後施行之後的一些影響可能要再做事後的一個評估然後再來作為就是法律修法的一個參考然後就是剛剛包括林俊憲委員跟這個我們許思杰委員提到的"},{"start":4021.135,"end":4043.9,"text":"很多的就是因為超速就是說我們把那個超速的那個數字下修之後從60修到40公里之後就是變成不小心就超速嚴重超速的這個數量增加之後就被調控牌照也到造成就是說是不是也造成這個未照車牌的這個件數也提高這是不是有"},{"start":4044.58,"end":4073.365,"text":"有相就是有相連性相關性是不是也要去做一個研究一下那當然就是說法令訂定之後未來就是說有關未照車牌的罰則訂定之後當然我們對於處罰的對象也沒有辦法去區分說他是因為一般的就是基於生計的需求工作的需求所以他不得不去用這個未照車牌或者是說他是因為犯罪而來使用這個假車牌"},{"start":4075.906,"end":4103.12,"text":"對於這樣子違規的事項也沒有辦法去就個別的對象再去做不同的處分所以我覺得說在這個部分我們當然本席也是可以尊重大家的一個意見因為這部分我是有提說就是末路車輛的這部分那當然就是說對於這個比例原則的問題大家都是可以在討論的研討一下因為我的修正的部分是將那個"},{"start":4103.94,"end":4120.612,"text":"有關就是使用未照變照蒙領車牌的這個部分除了提高罰則之外那就是說對於六個月內有在連續違反這樣子的規定的就是把這個車輛直接沒入這樣子的一個條文那這部分我們可以再來討論謝謝"},{"start":4122.776,"end":4149.238,"text":"好那委員反正都快講一輪啦來邱若驊委員再來徐副國務委員謝謝主席那你壓軸齁林備強委員好謝謝主席本席間斷這邊補充還有提問那朝野的委員都有提案代表這一次的修法都有高度的共識那只是差別在於罰則提高多少然後還有是不是要新增條文規範在去年11月的時候交通部曾經有召開記者會那版本是這樣"},{"start":4150.339,"end":4160.55,"text":"罰則上限提高到三萬六千元並將車輛沒收後銷毀那本期這邊也邀請交通部待會再做說明訂定三萬六的原因是什麼那沒收車輛並銷毀的釋法性足夠嗎以上謝謝好徐富奎委員"},{"start":4166.768,"end":4172.691,"text":"謝謝主席我想這個假車牌的問題在台灣這幾年確實是蠻嚴重尤其我們調閱到的數據從108年的57件到去年一整年已經高達1271件暴增了20幾倍"},{"start":4182.856,"end":4203.6,"text":"那其中當然我們現在發現到的幾個假車牌的太陽包含懸掛在網路上的假車牌然後還有已經報廢甚至是本席發現我們近期有很多報廢的車輛懸掛的試車牌在路上這個橫行然後甚至有可能造成一個犯罪的工具那甚至有些被"},{"start":4203.96,"end":4222.987,"text":"排照被調扣六個月的車輛也是繼續掛著試車牌繼續行駛我想這兩種情形都會造成這個車輛在行駛路上造成用路人的安全那甚至我覺得是不是有造成一個犯罪的一個工具的一個傾向所以這部分本席也提出一個相關的修正一個條文好 謝謝好 林沛強委員"},{"start":4230.831,"end":4254.998,"text":"好謝謝主席我想我們在場的所有委員針對這次修改這個法案的修改我們大家都認為提高罰款是一定的但是我們剛剛我們幾個委員在討論的時候其實私底下討論最主要是有關末路的問題那本席提議就是借用剛剛林俊憲委員的跟林國成委員的意見就是說針對如果這個假造車牌的車輛"},{"start":4256.178,"end":4284.014,"text":"有實質上犯罪的事實不管算是酒駕、藥駕還是有肇事甚至有直接參與犯罪其實我們會建議把這部車輛拿去做末路因為照以前美國的法規來講他們對於偽造車輛的車牌其實罰的是非常重但是他們還是有因為他們車輛偏多所以我剛剛查資料才知道說紐約在去年就已經有損失兩億以上兩億美元以上"},{"start":4284.554,"end":4308.851,"text":"在紐約市損失2億美元以上因為假車牌的議題所以這議題其實不是只有在台灣有在全世界各地都有那與其說是從嚴審查從嚴嚴辦倒不如說我們應該去是說看別人發生過什麼事情我們在這邊先做一個預防性的措施假設有犯罪事實利用假車牌的車輛那應該予以沒入那第二點來講的話就是說"},{"start":4311.331,"end":4330.799,"text":"我們我認為剛剛就好有講過說因為現在我們遇到很多地方都有科技司法當然所有人對科技司法毀譽參半但是科技司法會去幫助我們執行上面來講會是有很大的幫助那就對於未來車牌的設計可能是交通部跟速發部要去想怎麼樣去能夠讓"},{"start":4331.819,"end":4361.079,"text":"這個科技執法去容易辨識我們不是要去抓那些小罪而是那些如果說我們要去抓通緝犯我們去抓這些假車牌他們的確有這樣會或許會提高我們在這個政策上面執行率以科技來代替人力像美國他們是很他們有一筆有一筆經費是他們專門派一隊人去外面查說去撕那個假車牌那我覺得這樣的人力使用在台灣其實非常的昂貴那與其如此倒不如說交通部跟速發部"},{"start":4361.619,"end":4372.749,"text":"重新來針對這個車牌的設計是否能夠用科技司法容易辨識假車牌的存在我覺得這樣可能會對於我們未來整個在政策上面執行有更大的幫助以上"},{"start":4374.946,"end":4401.912,"text":"好 謝謝各位委員的討論跟說明那我們現在請包括交通部還有警政署 待會我們司法單位是不是也來說明一下因為主要針對於罰環的部分有最低最高要調哪個Range你們的一個建議如何第二個是沒路車輛的一個部分因為事實上現在已經有一些樣態是可以沒路車輛了"},{"start":4402.992,"end":4421.712,"text":"那這個的部分再加入有沒有問題要不要設定什麼條件然後這個那當然有些樣態啦譬如說我租一台車然後把人家車牌換了那這個東西要怎麼辦在警政署或是說相關單位你們能有什麼建議好我們請來說明一下交通部"},{"start":4424.853,"end":4446.07,"text":"是 報告召委還有各位委員那針對剛剛這個十一位委員所提的相關考量或建議意見的部分我這邊大概這個中整做一個重點的一個報告第一個部分我先跟各位委員報告就是說目前這個行政部門對於偽變造車牌相關這個全面性防制的一個這個作為"},{"start":4447.431,"end":4468.67,"text":"主軸策略就是不敢賣、不敢買、不敢用這裡面剛剛陳儒坤哲委員這邊所提到從源頭阻斷加強茶器然後受害協助減免規規這邊來處理相關的作為我大概簡單重點跟各位報告"},{"start":4469.21,"end":4492.175,"text":"有因為現行查到的尾道車牌基本上都是從境外輸入都是從境外輸入所以公務局跟這個公報署也規定了就是針對車牌進口這個部分是列為不得進口的項目那只要有這樣子的規格這樣子的形式在這個關口全部都掃描都這個查緝從這個這個源頭這邊希望就能夠做這個這個阻斷那"},{"start":4498.576,"end":4522.71,"text":"第二個部分的話就是因為現行這一個就是說偽造車牌這個就是說以現行這個網路的一個方式確實是很容易取得上網訂購境外輸入那所以在網路訂購訊息這一塊公路局跟這個書畫部有設程式定期這個巡邏 巡到的部分就是要求這個書畫部把它做"},{"start":4523.69,"end":4550.608,"text":"一個下架那第三個層面在這個就是實務查緝的部分實務查緝的部分公路局的吊扣吊銷這些車籍不正常就是這個衣櫃店不能上路的部分那另外高工局ETC的資料只要有這些車子有經常出現在高速公路部分這些相關的名單都會彙整到給這個就是檢控署檢控署在他們那個智慧這個偵查系統裡面就會把這些名單列為這個"},{"start":4552.689,"end":4567.543,"text":"優先的部分然後還包括停停管單位在這個就是開這個停車管理這個收費單的時候有注意到這些的話都會通報那這個就會立即做一個查處那整體而言到目前"},{"start":4568.363,"end":4586.413,"text":"也確實剛剛陳書業所提到就是說以往在像112年大概每年大概100多件這個200多件偽造車牌的部分那今年大概目前的一個數量大概是1271件那整個高峰在8月份的時候"},{"start":4587.333,"end":4601.967,"text":"單月有來到這個400多件但是這個整合性的這個作為下來之後其實現在都降到像到12月大概降到這個100件這樣多所以整個下來是這個只有整個這個相關的查緝作為我們是有看到"},{"start":4603.609,"end":4626.23,"text":"這個真相那包括這個就是說各單位目前都還在這個積極這個在做一個防治那回到今天大家針對這個其實說整個防治作為裡面就是說處啊條例的修正只是其中的這個一環那剛剛大家委員所關切的一個部分就是緩緩上線然後沒入這個車輛的"},{"start":4627.972,"end":4646.556,"text":"一個釋法性那第三個那這個第三個就是比例原則的一個考量那第四個就是說剛剛有提到啊如果是租車或是借人家車啊這個深圳使用的人有去做這樣子的一個這個事情的時候那對於這個相關這個像租用車輛或是這個借他車人這個車輛的處理是如何處理"},{"start":4651.357,"end":4666.108,"text":"那首先有關於滑軟上限這部分大概提供這個教育部意見給各位委員這個參考而其實如果說現行二十案委員提案的這個版本大家的滑軟上限差異性非常大"},{"start":4666.588,"end":4686.707,"text":"那這是說有些是到3萬6有些是到10萬到這個15萬因為大家這個考量的層面是這個不太一樣那鋪裡面這邊是建議就是說這個就是說因為呃陳璐剛剛委員有委員所提到的部分在12條裡面總共有10款的違規太陽這10款的違規太陽"},{"start":4688.749,"end":4703.243,"text":"都不太一樣而且適用的車種也會不一樣在12條裡面適用的這個車種太樣的話第一個有汽車有機車還有大型車輛那另外還有一些拼裝車廂像鄉下的這個都是在12條裡面處理的一個這個部分"},{"start":4709.048,"end":4733.288,"text":"那所以針對這個針對提高滑緩的部分那剛剛委員也提到滑緩的提高就要搭配有沒有其他的一個這個處理的機制如果說有搭配這個在特定條件這個末路車輛的那個這個部分的話那可能滑緩提高這個部分就要比較做橫平性的一個考量那其實各位委員大概"},{"start":4734.629,"end":4749.796,"text":"這個都有提到這個滑板上限提高跟沒入車輛部分那要去處理這個滑板上下限要不要做調整那就必須要先解決剛剛大家提到的一個部分車輛可不可以沒入那我跟這個各位委員報告除了條例裡面"},{"start":4750.716,"end":4772.42,"text":"基本上這個行政法的部分基本上是可以沒路車輛這個是沒有問題那現行在處罰條例本身裡面沒路車輛有兩種開案像在12條裡面現行的這個未經刑事安全審驗合格的車輛上路就沒路然後這個拼裝車輛上路沒路然後呢報廢的車輛會報廢的車輛代表說這輛車子的安全性已經這個沒辦法那個所以車主都去報廢了"},{"start":4778.161,"end":4797.289,"text":"報廢的車輛上路就沒路這個是屬於車輛本身安全性的不安全所以這個沒路那另外還有另外一種派讓就是說交通違規已經嚴重影響到公共安全公共利益的時候沒路那這個部分分別在35條跟43條的部分35條你只要酒駕"},{"start":4798.509,"end":4811.681,"text":"這個肇事致人重傷死亡車輛沒路那第13條就是這個飆車你只要飆車第一次就是吊扣牌照這一個六個月然後如果說再次這一個違反車輛就這個沒路"},{"start":4813.482,"end":4836.849,"text":"所以車輛沒入在處罰條例這個線型裡面是有而且這個車輛本身的不安全也有這個可以沒入然後相關交通違規重大可以這個沒入所以如果說在12條考量這個一些情況比較影響這個嚴重這個給予以沒入的話這個部分基本上是在處罰條例本身架構裡面是這個法理性是這個OK的"},{"start":4839.97,"end":4859.308,"text":"那整體中部當時這個對外記者會說明的部分基本上就是提高法反跟末路車輛兩者來做這個考量那所以如果說有考量末路車輛的一個部分的話針對法反這個上下限的部分我們是比較建議下限不要動因為還必須要考量一些冰裝車輛或是機車吊扣"},{"start":4862.631,"end":4878.097,"text":"無規行為沒有涉及到這個偽變造車牌的部分那個部分還是要這個維持做一個比較橫貧的考量那上限的部分我們是建議就是比照43條危險駕駛的部分的上限提高到這個366那搭配的這個車輛這個末路的部分的話"},{"start":4885.2,"end":4900.677,"text":"布里敏跟法務部跟警察署大家開會討論的一個公式說針對確實對於車輛的危險性還有危及到其他人的利益的這個部分應該予以考量所以這次大概就是有建議就是說"},{"start":4902.479,"end":4924.527,"text":"針對這個偽編造車牌裡面的第一個偽造他車的車牌因為偽造他的車保就是剛剛大家有提到可能會涉及到犯罪可能會這樣但是這些相關的東西都會轉嫁到其他這個受害被偽造的一個這個車主的一個身上那第二個部分就是造勢這個智能傷亡這個已經有危險到這個危及到這個安全性的課題那"},{"start":4926.147,"end":4943.834,"text":"第三種條件就是說10年內一輛車的這個使用壽年大概是這一個就是10年那10年內你沒有前面的兩款但是你有壘犯那個部分那也予以考量這個目錄那這個部分的話我也這個跟各位委員報告如果說以這個去年1271件的話"},{"start":4948.416,"end":4976.347,"text":"那這個這三個條款做考量目錄的話大概是佔百分之這個70啦大概是佔百分之這個70的一個比例那最後一點就是大家提到就是說這樣子的東西會不會像租賃車這些等等部分我跟各位基本上處罰條例的處罰必須還是在這個行政法法第七條的規定這一個之下非出於故意的那個部分的話基本上是不會那個"},{"start":4976.807,"end":4999.215,"text":"所以如果租賃車輛租輛車子出去是那個陳租賃自己去編造車牌的那個部分的話那這個基本上對於租賃車輛是有他的這個基本上不會予以目錄那如果說這個車子借給這個人家那他去做這樣子東西的話那我想這個也是很好做舉證的一個部分這個東西都不在處罰的一個這個範圍裡面那這一次我們是並同建議啦"},{"start":5002.836,"end":5028.202,"text":"因為使用這個其實我跟各位委員報告每一年被吊扣牌照或註銷牌照的這個案件數都非常多但是大家去看這個會使用偽造車牌的以往這一個200多件那今年確實是取得的管道這個比較容易這個等等部分而上升到這個一千多件但是這個比例的話相對於這個總數的部分是還是所以"},{"start":5029.262,"end":5050.628,"text":"針對這樣子的一個這個防制的部分我們也特別在這個建議就是說如果說廢棄車所有人的駕駛人你明知道這個是偽造車牌你去這個再去使用這輛車子的話一樣變法一樣用最高法來做處罰那大概針對委員這個整體剛剛所提那另外一個部分剛剛徐副委員所提到的部分我跟委員報告"},{"start":5051.568,"end":5078.061,"text":"只要報廢的車輛或是後吊銷的車輛不管他懸掛什麼車牌他一上路就是會依照12條來做這個處理這個報廢的車輛不會因為他掛了四車牌而這個不用目錄這個等於的部分所以這個剛剛委員裡面有提到四車牌這個部分基本上在現行12條裡面都可以都是按照現行12條的一個條文來做一個處理以上我大概重點中整跟各位委員做個報告"},{"start":5080.819,"end":5087.15,"text":"好那這個警政署有沒有你們執行上面有沒有問題"},{"start":5091.062,"end":5111.635,"text":"主席還有各位委員大家好警務署就委員所關心的問題分三點來報告首先第一點現況的偽造號牌的現況的報告那最近五年舉發的建樹一道焦條例的確是每年都成長"},{"start":5112.415,"end":5120.821,"text":"那成長到113年總共統計到年底是1327件比112年是增加了472%那另外用違反刑法那刑法是在212條跟216條違反刑法的案件是112年是130件但是113年是1114件增加了856%"},{"start":5141.072,"end":5163.673,"text":"那這個是大概的狀況不過這個偽造號牌的那從今年因為我們大家的關注那經過政府包括交通部財政部、關務署、數位部以及警方的努力從8月份最高點253件到12月已經有下降的趨勢12月是120件"},{"start":5165.97,"end":5183.869,"text":"那經由政府的決心還有媒體的關注還有大院各委員的支持我想我們一定有辦法來克服這個問題那第二點報告的是有關於查緝的量能剛剛有委員在關心警方的量能部分那警察"},{"start":5185.33,"end":5210.18,"text":"機關目前在警政署最後端的資料庫裡面已經有建置了相關號牌有問題車輛的這些資料包括譬如說權力車、AV車、典當車、髒車、吊扣、吊銷以及可依車牌的資料那我們怎麼查緝呢警察都有智慧警情系統是用M Police人手一機"},{"start":5210.92,"end":5215.604,"text":"去打車牌的號碼來比對那另外警察也建置了AI的巡邏的警車這個都配附了那個攝影機直接攝影以後輸到後端就直接可以辨識出來那當然這些智慧警情系統警政署在未來也在持續的擴充當中最後一點就是有關於這次修法的重點是在"},{"start":5240.503,"end":5240.523,"text":"12條的"},{"start":5243.356,"end":5273.056,"text":"地向的第三款這個偽造號牌的問題那警政署的意見是跟交通部因為已經開過很多次會了我們是支持交通部的版本那包括在第三款我們也設了條件本來是說偽造號牌的通通來沒入但是這個是也有很多的聲音說是不是違反比例原則但是事實上交通部的版本提出來的包括偽造他人"},{"start":5273.776,"end":5301.212,"text":"的車牌致人重傷傷亡10月內第二次違反這個才才沒落實質上這個偽造號牌的人他已經是壘患嘛他偽造別人的號牌他自己的車子都被人家吊銷吊扣了才在偽造別人的這個實質上是已經有壘患的意味更何況目前啊國內有幾件重大非常重大的刑案是偽造號牌"},{"start":5303.213,"end":5323.865,"text":"的人來做的最後一點補充就是說如果我們擔心以後偽造號牌的車輛扣了以後是不是有量能的問題我們在分析偽造他人號牌的車輛去年一整年是733件偽造自己的是453件"},{"start":5329.548,"end":5344.597,"text":"那如果扣依照我們的草案 交通部的草案比如說要扣733件 733件是偽造他人號牌嘛那733件經由我們的努力 我們修法過了我們的宣導 我們相信"},{"start":5345.518,"end":5364.088,"text":"明年不會再 這個應該是最上限了因為民眾就知道說很嚴重了不能再換這個法要不然車子會被沒路因此警政署的立場是支持我們交通部這次提出來的版本懇請大院支持 以上報告"},{"start":5365.114,"end":5380.945,"text":"好謝謝那是不是最後請我們防務部廖參事來說明一下召委各位委員那鑑於當前使用偽變造車牌的案件激增造成許多的這個社會問題"},{"start":5382.606,"end":5407.951,"text":"就政策上採行比較嚴格的這個防治措施本部競表支持那今天審議的這個草案裡面有部分的版本在12條的第二項或者是12條的第五項或者是12條之一有增訂這個沒入車輛的條款那採用的方式是直接沒入的這個罰則"},{"start":5409.671,"end":5432.991,"text":"那這種形態是屬於強烈干預人民財產權的一個行政處罰的方式這個部分我們建請大院能夠橫著憲法比例原則來加以審議另外我們從另外一個角度來做觀察那從道交條例內部體系的內部比較來看"},{"start":5434.252,"end":5451.48,"text":"其實沒入車輛這不是一個新創的法則在現行的體力裡面就有那我們盤點了本條例總共有4種類型是有沒入車輛的規定包括12條的危險性質的車輛就是針對拼裝車報廢車等等另外有21條的無照駕駛還有35條的獨駕酒駕以及43條的危險駕駛這4種類型"},{"start":5465.182,"end":5480.427,"text":"那分類上大概他的沒入車輛有兩種型態第一種是針對危險性質的車輛那這種車輛的是採直接沒入沒有其他的這個條件另外三種無照駕駛獨駕酒駕還有危險駕駛這三種型態他的沒入車輛是同時"},{"start":5488.149,"end":5504.515,"text":"有附加其他的這個要件好像肇事致人重傷或死亡或者是再次違反也就說第二次違反等等這些要件那緩衝掉直接沒入的這個盈利性那我們從比較的角度來看"},{"start":5505.632,"end":5527.89,"text":"無照駕駛酒駕毒駕跟危險駕駛這三種形態的危害程度我想他並不亞於不亞於偽變造車牌這種形態所以這個部分是本條例跟這個議題有關的這個立法體力那這個部分我們也進行大院能夠一併參考審議以上報告好接下來我們這個陳法官"},{"start":5536.451,"end":5565.671,"text":"主席各位委員好我是司法院代表針對這一次諸多版本大概都有共識說是要提高對於假車牌防制的法律效果那幾個重點分別是提高罰還然後沒入或是銷毀就罰還的部分本院對於上下限的提高沒有意見但是罰還的部分有一個規定是說很多版本都出現說一律依前項最高而處罰比方說像江戶的版本"},{"start":5567.031,"end":5584.739,"text":"前面總共有十款卻有八款都一律依最高而處罰但是說但是每一種違規太陽不依然後每個人的可規則的情況也不同如果一律都依最高而處罰可能在比例原則上值得再思索這是法環的部分"},{"start":5585.399,"end":5601.087,"text":"再來是漠入的部分剛才這個法務部的代表有提到說漠入它是一個效果非常強的處置但也誠如交通部剛剛代表說漠入是處罰條例已經有的法律效果但是它是限制在"},{"start":5601.887,"end":5625.946,"text":"很強烈的違規太陽像是酒駕或是酒駕致人重要死亡或是飆車再次違反的情況那如果我們在假車牌防治上也要採取相同法律效果的話那可能也要在假車牌這種違規類型上挑選相類似非常嚴重的太陽來再比照處理那比較能符合比例原則的要求那以上檢討報告謝謝好謝謝以上的說明"},{"start":5630.697,"end":5641.708,"text":"那我這樣請教一下就是說有沒有一個違規的樣態符合這個第一項兩款以上的情況那你們會怎麼處理啊"},{"start":5643.035,"end":5662.176,"text":"有沒有可能這樣的就是說舉個例子就是說今天我超速40以上所以車牌被扣6個月對不對6個月之後讓我自己做一個跟我一模一樣號碼的假車牌上路那他是不是違反了第三款"},{"start":5663.675,"end":5684.72,"text":"使用偽造變造車牌他是不是同一時間在行駛中間又違反了第六款牌照調扣期間行駛我不知道我感覺如果他在行駛之間被抓到的話是怎麼樣 梁哥是有加成效應嗎 還是怎麼樣"},{"start":5688.192,"end":5708.051,"text":"比如說你剛剛舉的例子這個就是說出現超過40危險駕駛那調過牌照6個月然後在調過牌照的期間然後使用這個偽造車牌上路那如果回過頭來的話按照12條的部分他是同時違反這個調牌照調過期間行駛也違反使用這個偽造編造車牌的部分"},{"start":5708.391,"end":5725.424,"text":"但是這個裁罰基準裡面我們就會去看那如果說是使用這個偽造的號牌這個裁罰基準比較高的話我們就這個用比較高的法案來做處罰不會兩個做加成是折衷來做處罰好的因為按照你們的版本最後兩個是一樣重啊"},{"start":5726.565,"end":5740.582,"text":"一樣重嘛 就罰一個就對了那現在一個情況我真的是趁這個機會給你建議一下因為剛剛至少有四位委員有提到為什麼在過去的這個年度啊這個尤其偽造的車牌啊"},{"start":5741.303,"end":5759.388,"text":"他這個特別多真的是可能跟那個超速40公里40公里然後就被吊扣嘛很多人就偽造自己的就把自己的車牌再把它掛上去大概這種樣態這種確實不少那我現在真的是你們要整體去思考這個去檢討一下"},{"start":5760.228,"end":5780.689,"text":"那如果這個是沒有問題40公里是沒問題那當然第二個是其實地方很多那種超寬的道路莫名其妙就譬如說50然後一不小心旁邊有個小工地在施工30你根本不知道所以像這種的一個情況確實有那再來不知道這個社長你知不知道"},{"start":5781.75,"end":5807.013,"text":"我們統計了過去八 從實施到今年的二月啦因為有申訴期嘛 到二月底我個人統計的我們因為這種超速40公里被查獲的有六萬五千件但是最終調扣牌照的只有四萬三千件也就是說逃脫率是三分之一不是啦 因為"},{"start":5808.234,"end":5830.043,"text":"那有逃脫力的話人家可能假車牌也不用做了可能你們自己要去研究一下喔那為什麼這麼多人寫個理由也不用扣六個月了我覺得這個你們要去研究喔因為我是跟你們調的資料居然有兩萬兩千人我被超速了40公里"},{"start":5830.919,"end":5846.009,"text":"我應該被調扣六個月了結果他沒事我不知道用什麼理由還是你們糟糕一下吧讓大家這是全民的都應該要知道用什麼理由可以有三分之一完完全全不用調扣的"},{"start":5849.266,"end":5869.519,"text":"沒有沒有沒有沒有我是刻意我刻意掉四個月前的我刻意掉四個月前這個你們回去自己研究了我不敢掉現在的我掉2月29號截止的你們去了解一下好不好就是這些的逃脫術主要的話術理由是什麼"},{"start":5870.559,"end":5884.375,"text":"我想交通委員給大家一下啦好不好因為我們這種東西人家來拜託我們不可能嘛根本怎麼可能完全不好意思超速你就被抓到就準備扣六個月我們都這樣回答嘛但是有三分之一的人不用"},{"start":5885.816,"end":5904.706,"text":"講的如果說是屬於這一個違規案經申訴程序而裁定免罰這個部分我們來請這個工種統計六都裁決單位所以你們那個監理組給我的嗎你們真的了解一下啦都用什麼理由啦譬如說送父母看"},{"start":5905.726,"end":5923.695,"text":"看病或說什麼什麼理由讓我們知道好不好就說十大逃脫術的理由這個我要我覺得應該要知道嘛好不好要不然我覺得你這個要整個檢討一下到底怎麼回事好那對對對沒有給他們查一下給他們查一下不是真的你們給我的數據就是這樣來羅定偉委員"},{"start":5932.421,"end":5961.346,"text":"那這樣好不好我建議啦我再建議啦因為我們有20個委員有20組的版本版本那我們是不是現在因為交通部事實上他們這個也有版本但是來不及正式函文正式進入但他現在已經把他的意見變成建議的版本在這裡面那請大家也可以參閱我們以這個為一個討論的基礎大家來研究一下"},{"start":5977.458,"end":5988.285,"text":"我先問問你他要看我想要請教一下交通部你們提出的修正建議修正條文喔那個在就交通部版本你們在針對"},{"start":5991.124,"end":6013.779,"text":"对什么讲就是罚车部分在扣在能够没入车辆部分你们讲到说第三款中属伪造他车伪造他车牌照等等等等那个部分是所以说第三款里面的伪造车牌才要没入吗那变造跟蒙领之车牌是要不要没入我想要先确定一下这个定义问题以上谢谢"},{"start":6016.99,"end":6044.868,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個第三款裡面有使用偽造變造或蒙影那偽造或變造偽造或蒙影的部分它還是原號牌但是這一個偽造的部分它是去製作另外一個號牌所以這個要沒入的部分是針對這一個第一個部分偽造它這個號牌但是你只要是蒙影或者是這個變造號牌你有肇事智能傷亡或是失聯鏈壘犯的部分一樣沒入"},{"start":6047.835,"end":6056.436,"text":"不好意思我再確認一下因為用之前詞要了解一下這個網路在販售的遮排器也就是所謂你說的蒙里的一個樣態嗎"},{"start":6059.454,"end":6079.148,"text":"那個是未依規定這個懸掛這裡面有像這個第七款嗎這個第七款的部分以領號牌而為懸掛或不依指定位置懸掛他有懸掛喔但是他不是掛在但是他有一個遮蔽物蓋下來蓋著所以他是有懸掛的樣態喔"},{"start":6081.33,"end":6085.212,"text":"車輛每個出廠原廠都有設定一個附著在上面的部分所以他會動的部分基本上都不是附著在那個車輛固定的部分"},{"start":6098.24,"end":6120.074,"text":"我知道了但是你要知道現在網路的樣態有一個是變換器就是把他的車牌變成沒有車牌那另外一種方式是他只是在他原有的車牌裡面加掛了可能一個比如說像窗簾一樣之類的可能窗簾蓋起來或者是那個像鐵皮那種模式上下伸縮的就把它遮住"},{"start":6121.344,"end":6136.449,"text":"這個部分你算不算第七款算不算蒙名委員講的這個比較新式的部分我們在這個去年12月正式一個文就是給這個警務處就是說針對安裝電動遮排器就是依照12條第一項第七款"},{"start":6136.789,"end":6155.067,"text":"又把他樣態納入就好那對於你們所建議的修正條文就是你們最低的罰款是3600對不起我覺得我沒辦法接受當然有些人會說這個違法的樣態可能也會影響到其他樣態但基本上我們看到在12條裡面我們所12345678910這樣子相關的樣態基本上都是在玩車牌"},{"start":6161.564,"end":6187.858,"text":"都是在玩車台這裡面沒有放上比如說像停車的問題如果今天這裡面有其他的罰款樣態是可能停車或者是其他的一些比較小型的違規那我們去提升的最低罰款可能會影響到他們那我覺得可以做探討沒關係可是今天12條裡面全部都在講車牌裡面的偽造啊吊銷然後你還繼續使用這個車牌那這些都是在玩車牌的樣態"},{"start":6189.099,"end":6198.588,"text":"我覺得我們就是要賀紙所以只有3600的最低罰款我個人不能夠認同應該要提高所以我這邊我提示15000元"},{"start":6202.89,"end":6226.205,"text":"就是說當時剛剛考量3600不動的部分是因為還有踢鼓挖掐機車這些相關的部分那提高上限的部分偶然可以看到交通部的這個版本就是前向第一款包括到第三款就是這一個第三款的部分就是以最高法就是36000就是36000直接在條文裡面明定就是用36000來做這36000了"},{"start":6234.133,"end":6257.806,"text":"三萬六太少了那個這樣各位我們先參照我們來看看這個建議版本因為委員和同仁的版本又要翻好幾頁我們直接來看建議修正的版本我們就進入實質的分階段來溝通第一個這個部分主要針對於罰款的部分"},{"start":6258.888,"end":6275.655,"text":"交通部建議的版本是3600元起跳到三萬六也就是說最高的部分從一萬零八百有成長了三倍多那最低的還是維持三萬六那針對這個部分"},{"start":6278.122,"end":6305.611,"text":"剛剛 那我個人是覺得這樣因為這罰環的部分因為同樣的道交條例前後有很多種樣態那包括危險駕駛如果還值三萬六他定在那裡我們如果太不符合法理這個定出來也會有一點怪怪的因為搞不好我們會覺得更嚴重再下一條他罰三萬六所以他剛剛有說我覺得不無道理也給大家參考但是最低的這個部分"},{"start":6306.491,"end":6331.821,"text":"啊你一直在講說一些不管是農用啊或什麼但是我也覺得如果當時訂這個少一點是有點教育意義有一件啊這個你們不了解我覺得這種告知通知訓練這種義務大概也告一段落了如果到這樣的一個文明的一個社會還需要這個我是覺得最低的這個部分如果我們把它調到6000起跳各位覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":6335.925,"end":6336.406,"text":"6000起跳到36000"},{"start":6342.79,"end":6363.429,"text":"全部這裡可能考慮一下啦三千六可能是有些籠祭啦什麼有的沒的那些啦所以如果你把它調高是會處罰到那些人那些人他講快一點是有一點睜眼閉眼的合法不合法之間不曉得如何去處理如果我贊成把"},{"start":6368.134,"end":6392.607,"text":"高的部分再把它拉高然後這些是要合組之作用看能不能把它最高拉高那那個偽造車牌一律用最高划定得很清楚這樣的話車輛比較好我是不是補充正義一下等一下 等一下那個黃建豪委員長 我提問一下因為你們那個交通部你們的修正條文裡面"},{"start":6394.048,"end":6411.087,"text":"你們是一到三款還有六到十款都是依最高而處罰所以那個拼裝車那個農用車你們應該就放在所謂一到三裡面才對看起來是這樣子吧然後沒關係我先講完那你們等一下再看怎麼解釋那唯一逃過的最高法的就是四跟五"},{"start":6412.288,"end":6433.25,"text":"使用吊销注销是牌照跟牌照借供他车使用或使用他车牌照四根五反而你也没有用到最高法所以一方面我也希望你们解释一下为什么四根五反而不用最高法那123678910都要最高法好那个这个这个这个立法逻辑上面我也觉得很奇怪因为我如果我今天就是要解决牌照"},{"start":6434.677,"end":6459.775,"text":"他已經被吊銷跟註銷牌照他還繼續掛牌使用或是他去借別的車子來就借別的車的牌照來使用那不是也是跟類似偽編造車牌的概念嗎好好不好所以我覺得如果你你要比如剛剛你剛剛郭聲文提到如果你是為了說什麼地方上有一些鄉下地區有農用要拼裝車輛那個你就放在一定放在最高法了你還是有罰到他而且罰到最重喔那這個部分我覺得跟你們的說法好像有點出入以上"},{"start":6460.734,"end":6482.047,"text":"好 這個講到點了嘛因為你這個拼裝車已經是罰最高啦已經都已經你第二款拼裝車輛如果主要的這個的部分都已經甚至第一項也是一樣啊第一款啊所以我是覺得應該你已經把他要罰三萬六啦對不對邏輯上面我們建華委員講的是是這樣沒有錯啊"},{"start":6485.802,"end":6508.679,"text":"大概跟委員報告一下就是說當時3600下限沒有動到最主要是搭配這一個第二款的部分那第二款的部分就是我大概修正一下就是併裝車輛部分確實就是併在第二項裡面是第一款到第三款就是用最高法廚那當時這個考量的部分的話就是說剛剛就是黃委員提到第四款第五款"},{"start":6509.58,"end":6528.147,"text":"的一個部分他是原排照在身上所以當時就是說第一款到第三款第六款到第十款均依最高的處罰就是說這輛車子在行駛道路的時候就只有兩種情況第一個車子上面沒有牌照第二個部分車子是使用偽造他人的號牌所以"},{"start":6529.067,"end":6553.673,"text":"這個發生事情的時候查不到或是會歸咎到別人身上那針對第四款跟第五款就是說他是使用吊銷註銷的牌照但是他這個牌照沒有繳回來還掛在測試上面所以我基本上還可以追到他這個本人然後第五款牌照接供他車使用或使用他車牌照這個是項目接的部分我只要抓到一個就可以去那個所以這個第二項的部分是搭配第一項"},{"start":6554.173,"end":6579.435,"text":"你只要車子上面沒有牌照的部分我在第二項都是用最高法案來做處罰那對不起那這樣的話你的3600或6000你基本上就是處只會處分到4跟5而已啊因為123678910都是用最高法的嘛所以4跟5其實不屬於這種需要勸戒的對象吧4跟5他本來就是故意去犯罪的會故意去做這件事情才會發生4跟5的情形"},{"start":6581.448,"end":6604.846,"text":"事故不問的話最主要就是說號牌違規使用但是如果說發生交通違規或等等部分基本上都可以直接找到本人那當時會保留第四款第五款的部分的話也是考量到這個使用吊住銷牌照牌照就可能在機車上面那機車一下子這個罰到比較高的部分可能也考慮到比較橫行性的一個課題因為這個裁判基準裡面還會按照車種來做這個裁判基準的這個分類"},{"start":6614.32,"end":6643.027,"text":"處罰條例裡頭大概會低而不動的大概都是考慮到機車啦所以這個如果一下子把它提高如果現在是3600以後就是一下就到6000啦這個可能有這個考慮機車機車機車所有的條例裡頭下限大概都是機車所以原則上除非必要原則上像在委員會大概都不去調那個下限"},{"start":6644.932,"end":6669.663,"text":"好 那這個部分交通部說明有沒有說服大家沒有齁那我們就 這樣啦這樣 我們就不是 因為齁 我們還是要看委員的版本我也沒有辦法自己在那邊大部分的委員啊 這個在低標的落點啊當然有很高 我有看到五萬起跳的十萬月 也有 我有看到但大部分的落點啊"},{"start":6670.143,"end":6686.806,"text":"大概在6000塊6000塊那我們就覺得這個部分當然剛剛交通部講的他有一些道理但我覺得3600提高到6000希望要違規違反這些條例的人更增加警惕我覺得這是可以的"},{"start":6687.347,"end":6710.776,"text":"那上限三萬六也是蠻多人提的那最主要是因為後面有好幾條啊這個危險駕駛因為我們這次沒休但是他危險駕駛有些非常危險的甚至生命生命都會影響到的是三萬六了所以我們是不是就是新台幣六千元以上到三萬六以下罰還"},{"start":6717.089,"end":6717.289,"text":"你車比較窮"},{"start":6741.536,"end":6757.629,"text":"不是 我知道年輕人他可能比較經濟比較不好但是如果說我們講的是年輕人是吊扣牌照還騎出來這個年輕人或者說他去用尾照或者其他的第四項第五項也好使用"},{"start":6758.45,"end":6778.967,"text":"吊銷註銷的牌照就是即使是第四第五項你要留給3600的這個部分如果我們不要講年輕人啦因為騎機車的各個年輕人都有啦如果說因為我機車因為代表經濟能力不太夠但是你的違規的樣態我覺得就是這個我是覺得是不OK啦不是 我覺得"},{"start":6780.988,"end":6806.678,"text":"召委講這些基本上我是算蠻支持的因為你如果要修那你把最低划3600那也沒有什麼嚇阻作用啊只是既然要修那就較為嚴謹一點所以多數的委員提案也是認為應該要提高所以6000應該是合理但是如果調了"},{"start":6807.978,"end":6833.25,"text":"最高的話要讓他完全嚇阻作用讓他們有警惕作用的話我認為最高法還是要調高這樣的話就像我們以前喝酒酒駕也是這樣啊慢慢調慢慢調調到現在大家是真的有嚇阻作用啊大家要喝酒真的是坐計程車啊他寧願車子在那邊他算過嘛我明天早上再來開"},{"start":6834.591,"end":6860.681,"text":"我頂多300塊我被你滑是最少要9萬所以這個調高是有必要那昭緯所講的說最低滑6000這個部分我認為是合理但是最高滑也要跟著拉這樣的話才會有修這個滑才會有那種意義啦嚇阻作用才會生效啦這是我是建議這樣是大家商討一下"},{"start":6864.916,"end":6885.777,"text":"所以我要補充一下我要說明一下我在提的案子裡面當然我是主張要就是最低是5萬那當然我這樣的主張我是把這個樣態是一列的"},{"start":6886.297,"end":6914.998,"text":"我是把第三款就是使用衛照變照或蒙影的牌照我是把它增列成第12條之一我是拉出來的所以我們今天在討論的這個第12條的修正條文大家是針對使用衛照變照或蒙影的牌照的罰者罰款我們是針對這個樣態可是因為今天交通部如果說沒有要把這個這個特別拉出來的話那我們提高的這個罰款的最低跟最高是會"},{"start":6915.859,"end":6937.236,"text":"影響到這十個樣態嘛對不對那當然他有列到說第一款到第三款已經都是要依前列前項最高而處罰那這樣子的話就是說使用偽造編造或蒙影的裁判就是最高處罰了嘛所以所以我就說這個就不影響到最低的那個罰款啦你懂嗎那個黃委員"},{"start":6938.197,"end":6956.505,"text":"就是說因為我如果說這個我們今天重點都是放在使用衛照變照或蒙影的這個的罰款的問題啦那我的想法是如果說我們沒有要把這個樣態特別獨立出來的話我們還是就尊重交通部的意見啦最低罰就3600啦我的意見是這樣 謝謝"},{"start":6960,"end":6982.531,"text":"好 謝謝我們陳昭偉其實他提供另外一條思路啦有好幾位委員即使在12條裡面也拉在後面單獨拉出來對於這個第三款的這樣的樣態直接去加重罰則就單一把它拉出來那就不要影響到他們一般的這個部分這也是另外一個思路啦好 羅委員"},{"start":6983.551,"end":7002.322,"text":"所以我希望大家能夠參考我的提案喔那我是另外拉出來啦那所以我的版本是罰10萬那我有另外拉出來就不會去影響到其他的權益那基本上包括剛剛我們民眾黨委員我們國城兄有提到我可以支持"},{"start":7002.842,"end":7029.862,"text":"那趙偉所提的最低的部分我也可以支持就6000我其實我原本是15000啦那我願意為了大家但是這個部分我希望說最高的部分要拉高最高的部分要拉高甚至就像我的版本一樣是另外拉出來違反這幾項單獨這幾項是直接給予10萬塊的罰款我想這個就交通部就沒什麼好說了這不會影響到其他樣態啊"},{"start":7032.669,"end":7047.891,"text":"就是說因為大家有搭配這個末路的部分 滑緩跟末路兩個要這一個要這個是建議比較這個整體做考量啦是比較這個整體做考量"},{"start":7048.251,"end":7075.447,"text":"然後這個不裡面提出來的一個這個條文當然就是說滑板上限的部分就是委員這個中中委員這邊的考量但是有提出來一個橫頻的這個概念那另外這個末路的部分還有那個大家討論到的偽造變造等等的部分其實在第二項就是根本不牽涉到下限的課題他都是牽涉到上限的問題因為條文明定他就是用最高上限來做處罰了"},{"start":7076.768,"end":7097.524,"text":"大家用最高上限來做處罰再搭配這個車輛其實剛剛報告的部分只要偽造車牌的部分百分之七十就這個沒路了其實大家講的一個部分最終車輛的一個這個價值就是全部這個再做一個處理我是比較建議因為整體橫平性也必須要就是做一個考量這剛剛召委所提到的一個部分"},{"start":7098.144,"end":7113.543,"text":"其實這個偽造這個車牌是非常這一個可惡那但是危及到交通安全這些相關直接撞死那個又是在其他條文裡面他的這個設定在那個地方所以整體而言還是要做一個比較這個橫頻的考量"},{"start":7115.365,"end":7137.218,"text":"好還是我們現在這個嘗試採取的一個方式就是說我們在修正條文的部分如果說這個遵照我們交通部的他現在修的一個意見但是我們後面在第二項的部分因為各款嘛第一項有十款那在第二項一個後面針對於我們第一項第三款這個"},{"start":7140.382,"end":7160.922,"text":"才比較高的一個罰則就直接把它單獨拉出來也因為今天其實會修改這個今天要來修正這個條例其實主要的用意就是違變招車牌真的不是要暫時不是要去做別的事情所以我們乾脆聚焦了那前面就是按照"},{"start":7162.143,"end":7175.007,"text":"我們交通部你們的一個建議但是我們後面把第一項第三款有好幾個委員也是這樣寫啦這樣我們就這樣我們折衷一下 橫平一下就把它拉到六萬塊啦就針對這個樣態針對第一項第三款這個樣態那我們就是來罰還六萬元找位"},{"start":7192.589,"end":7209.869,"text":"所以稍微就只針對第三款對啊我也不知道啊那個六萬我覺得太少了蛤十萬啊我可以不末入啊還有末入六萬加末入對啊"},{"start":7210.49,"end":7238.802,"text":"我跟委員報告因為我們條文裡頭本來是就是1到31到3還有6啊10啊是最高的最高我們的想法就是三萬六那如果剛才講的我們是可以在這個情況下我們特別把那個1到3就寫第一款第二款然後把第三的另外意思就是說我簡單講就是前向的第一款第二款第六款第十款就是儲大概就是儲"},{"start":7240.203,"end":7265.648,"text":"三萬六就這樣 明講然後第三款儲多少就尊重委員好 現在結論就是麻煩你們稍微寫一下就是現在十裡面有十款那其中有兩款是你們可以用彈性的可能最低嘛你們沒有把它列用最高的其他九款抱歉其他是九個嗎六七八九十"},{"start":7267.329,"end":7280.358,"text":"其他的八款其他八款你們本來用最高法你們再把第三款先在這個裡面先剔除我們單列在後面好不好那個市長寫一下吧市長寫一下"},{"start":7283.915,"end":7297.921,"text":"你們這邊把那個條文按照我們委員要共事因為確實如果處理到都軟趴趴的這個大家也覺得很奇怪委員我是不是可以這樣子建議建議交通部的建議就是說"},{"start":7300.082,"end":7315.759,"text":"針對這個第三款的部分把它特別這個拉出來那因為第三款的部分原來就列在這一個這第二項第三款的部分原來就列在這一個第一項裡面所以那個第二項的部分我文字是不是這個投影打一下就是前項第一款然後頓點"},{"start":7317.12,"end":7337.057,"text":"第二款及第六款至第十款情形然後均依前項最高法處罰然後逗點第三款按前項最按前項這個最高額處罰按前項最高額加倍處罰制對"},{"start":7342.523,"end":7344.665,"text":"好 那把條文整理一下來 麻煩再唸一次"},{"start":7370.376,"end":7396.871,"text":"前項第一款頓點第二款及第六款至第十款情形者均依前項最高罰處罰最高而處罰第三款按前項最高而加倍處罰之好那大家就這樣的因為討論蠻久的我覺得有有初步達到那個目標啦那至於說"},{"start":7398.532,"end":7426.295,"text":"這個我覺得接下來我們就尊重一下那個因為交通部他們跟跟我們法務部相關單位他們都有討論啦他這邊有三項的一個樣態沒入車輛第一個就是偽造他人車牌偽造他人車牌就大概就是犯案的讓警政單位都摸不著頭緒那第二呢如果肇事致人傷亡"},{"start":7427.662,"end":7452.78,"text":"或者十年之內第二次違犯你用了一次第二次就直接沒路了這三個樣態沒路車輛畢竟沒路人民的一個財產還是這個財產權我們覺得在修法的時候還是逐步逐步的漸進式的方式來做處理那各位看這個沒路的這個部分我個人是建議就採用交通部他提供的一個版本"},{"start":7458.87,"end":7480.277,"text":"交通部的版本我們競表支持其中的條文字就是第一種類型第三款中屬偽造他車車牌他車車牌除了偽造也有可能是變造所以是不是搭配我們第三款就是偽造、頓點、變造之他人車牌"},{"start":7499.172,"end":7501.493,"text":"好謝謝廖長士的建議還有勒就是偽造變造對我覺得比較明確"},{"start":7507.833,"end":7529.749,"text":"因為我剛剛也要問說到底偽造跟變造的差別是什麼啦因為本來交通部建議的條文已經只有偽造那變造其實也是找不到人吧變造就是說可能牌子還是國家發那個但是他用畫的用貼的用什麼黏的那種方式是不是這樣的貼膠袋的啦那叫變造變8啦你把他貼成8啦謝謝"},{"start":7535.319,"end":7539.821,"text":"偽造變造他車牌三種樣態可以沒入這個車輛那現在就是偽造變造他車牌照第二造勢之人傷亡"},{"start":7562.012,"end":7575.142,"text":"第三個是十年內第二次違反本規定的那我們就我覺得這個可以啦應該達成共識那現在最後一段是那個交通部說明一下你們在最後一段"},{"start":7577.638,"end":7592.198,"text":"這段有修的部分是什麼跟各位報告就是說我們建議的部分就是說針對非汽車所有的所有人的駕駛人如果駕駛這一個這一個相關沒有懸掛號牌的車輛我們希望併罰"},{"start":7594.821,"end":7613.632,"text":"因為他明知道這個車輛是偽造號牌那或是車輛根本就沒有號牌他一樣就是把人家這一個開出去的部分所以條文是講說飛機這所有人之駕駛人駕駛第一項第一款第三款及第六款至第十款的車輛依第一項規定划完最高額處罰之"},{"start":7614.773,"end":7642.724,"text":"就是說你明知道這個車子就是沒有號牌這個雖然不是你的車子可能是借他你還是要這個開所以就有點類似這個酒駕變法的概念這個是不是要配合前面的那個這個不需要這個是屬於這個駕駛人他明知他仍然去開我舉例一下就是我假設我啦我誤開了一個變造車牌的"},{"start":7645.714,"end":7663.942,"text":"不管是我誤開或是我故意啦不管是我誤開或是我故意你現在是只罰駕駛人對不對嗯OKOK好很好很好"},{"start":7670.069,"end":7697.651,"text":"好針對1號第12條那因為這個的內容請各位參閱因為這個是蠻多委員沒有提到的部分他有特別加進來就是所謂非汽車所有人的駕駛人駕駛第一項第一款及第三款及第六款至第十款的車輛就剛剛前面的十款裡面的描述一第一項"},{"start":7698.912,"end":7724.08,"text":"規定罰還最高額處罰 也是三萬六的意思嘛 對不對好 各位 這邊有 來趙偉加兩個字啊 加倍啊這不要 我怎麼不要如果今天是我誤開 或者是我自己明知要開我又沒有車子被沒入 那車子又不是我的那我已經沒有車子被沒入了 為什麼不能加重罰他款"},{"start":7725.502,"end":7747.292,"text":"其實這個偽造號牌主體是罰汽車所有人啦那這個汽車駕駛人的部分是並罰啦那這個主體是汽車所有人這個以便前面有些行為基本上是沒有加倍處罰你到這個並罰汽車駕駛人這個這個比原來的汽車所有人罰的這個更多是這個法律上面是還是要"},{"start":7748.243,"end":7773.596,"text":"有啦 像這個這當事者是7萬2家車子捏跟我們知道這一款的一個部分是包括第一款還有後面後面這些車子上面沒有這個號牌的部分那前面這個加倍的部分是針對偽編造的部分我們有加倍所以這個變化汽車駕駛的部分我是建議可以參加補裡面的一個部分已經這個是以往沒有的處罰制是3萬6以上對對對對對我們認為這個7萬2加倍"},{"start":7778.843,"end":7779.986,"text":"主要考慮的部分"},{"start":7787.987,"end":7813.441,"text":"主要考慮的部分是這個汽車駕駛人的部分是變法那12條的部分罰的主體應該是那個汽車所有人他要這個負責那只是說汽車所有人他明知道這樣子情況他還是去使用這樣的車輛所以要予以變法所以處罰的主體性原則上還是以汽車所有人這個為主那這個變法的部分我們是希望說達到這個變法組合的目的就好了"},{"start":7814.625,"end":7842.141,"text":"他這個比較全面一點啦因為這中間去處罰的一個部分總共有七個這個七款不是說剛剛我們剛剛前面是針對對症下藥就是第三款就是把今天我們修法的一個目的講清楚那後面事實上他們要達到全面的一個管理的這個部分所以對於七款的樣態如果是這個就算你不是汽車所有人的駕駛"},{"start":7843.021,"end":7852.005,"text":"他也有針對於駕駛人處罰嗎是不是好那這個部分是我們委員沒有提到但他們為了完整性加上來的好那針對第12條第12條的一個部分"},{"start":7864.986,"end":7891.325,"text":"我覺得我覺得可以了可以了因為這個沒有我覺得可以這畢竟是交通部自己提出來的那我覺得就先尊重你們那這事辦法律上假設法律上路之後還有問題那大家再討論那我覺得至少這條是交通部主動提出來的一個針對非汽車所有人駕駛的那個的一個懲罰附帶的所以我覺得可以了好現在針對於"},{"start":7893.12,"end":7919.997,"text":"第12條的一個修正條文的內容我們已經討論了一個半小時也達到一個一些共識那是不是剛剛已經相關的共識已經修正在這個我們投影那個表格都有了好那我們目前這是什麼修正動議黃孟楷委員又提一個修正動議的版本請大家參閱有在桌子上面"},{"start":7921.209,"end":7930.601,"text":"那是不是這樣的 我們協商到現在我們第12條是不是就按照交通部建議條文修正後通過各位有沒有問題"},{"start":7934.858,"end":7956.598,"text":"好沒有問題我再確認一下第一個我們這個主要發環的部分是3600到36000然後針對於第三款的部分有拉出來我概述一下就是加倍就最高的加倍就是72000來去做一個偽變造車牌的一個處罰"},{"start":7958.3,"end":7976.982,"text":"那最後的部分對於非汽車所有人駕駛人的駕駛這種七個款這種情境違規的一個樣態都一樣是用最高三萬六來做一個處罰這是今天十二條修法一個概念來各位好我最後一個請問就好我問一個問題我拿一個案例來舉例"},{"start":7978.544,"end":7999.251,"text":"那我如果今天這個案例他是發生在花蓮61歲的男子酒後駕駛無牌瓶裝車撞傷人那就這樣子的樣態來說請問他是罰多少是酒駕在家無牌在家你可不可以算個數字給我讓我知道一下"},{"start":8001.601,"end":8003.042,"text":"可以接受"},{"start":8027.81,"end":8046.535,"text":"好第十二條就按照我剛剛的一個宣告就是依照交通部建議條文修正或通過好接下來看十二之一條十二之一是新增的這個部分是我們召委提的嗎五個版本五個版本二三月"},{"start":8057.257,"end":8057.538,"text":"來請各位翻開23頁"},{"start":8067.332,"end":8096.082,"text":"好因為20 對抱歉12支1條主要我們是4位委員也是5位委員就是把尾變造車牌本來是直接拉新增新增12支1條來拉出來單獨來做處罰但是我們剛剛已經在第12條的時候已經併入12條已經做了處理了那待會每天用這條我們就不以爭定了好不好"},{"start":8098.325,"end":8109.39,"text":"好 如果各位沒有意見啦我們十二之一條因為因為剛剛已經處理過了十二之一條我們不予增訂好 我們在接續處理之前休息十分鐘謝謝"},{"start":8127.563,"end":8132.085,"text":"這比較好不曉得 末路啊那個末路的那個都比那裡高的高得多車輛 車輛的價錢"},{"start":8670.765,"end":8685.435,"text":"好我們繼續開會在繼續審議之前各位桌上都拿到我們因為剛剛有調整文字用講的用看的不準請大家再確認一次第12條的整個修正的條文的內容我們再確認一次陳書業召委"},{"start":8689.698,"end":8707.372,"text":"好謝謝趙偉那就是我們根據剛剛提供的這個修正文字的內容那我們剛剛有在仔細的研讀跟思考了一下那我這邊有一個建議是不是大家再討論一下就是說有關就是交通部在增訂的這個文字裡面前向"},{"start":8708.893,"end":8721.444,"text":"多了兩個字前項第一款然後頓耗第二款及第六款至第十款情形者均依前項最高而處罰那有關這個第二款因為就是針對這個拼裝車輛未經核准領用排證行駛等等這個樣態"},{"start":8727.549,"end":8754.954,"text":"那因為這個部分一般在就是基層在鄉下可能就是農用的車或者是就是農民或者是工人會在短程或是工地有這個搬運車所以這個部分可能會就是說一律採最高法沒有一個Range的話我覺得可能會有失那個就是那個原則所以是不是這個第二款是不是可以把它剔除掉"},{"start":8756.514,"end":8783.986,"text":"就是說不要踩最高額就是說這個樣態的違規讓他有一個處罰的一個任局啦不要說一定就是踩最高額這個三萬六這樣子是不是大家再思考一下謝謝好謝謝曹偉是的剛剛我們黃庭豪委也在提這個啦因為我們都是覺得有一些可能在農村啊他的樣態危險性危害性比較輕的那不是不罰嘛就是有一個彈性你們去結果你現在把他框到最高那這個部分"},{"start":8784.986,"end":8807.465,"text":"我們陳昌偉就提出來了那如果說把第二項第二款把第二款這邊把它拿掉咧所謂拿掉的話就變成3600到3600啦那你們看這種樣態的危害性來 黃靜雅委員謝謝張偉 我附和一下 因為其實講真的"},{"start":8808.326,"end":8833.549,"text":"哎不管不只是农用啦我想很多观光区好大家去海边如果采耳耳啊的时候那个车子我看也是冰装车很多是改装的变就是说他的那个饭他他的那个行为我家不是为了犯罪而反而产生的他是就是一个历史工业就这样好那当然就作为主管机关当然你们还是有这个采访的义务或是没有管理的义务啊但是我觉得这个金额的确如果直接"},{"start":8835.345,"end":8856.501,"text":"拉到36,000而且沒有得談的話我覺得的確是會對這種基層的這些商業或是農業行為會造成一定影響所以這邊我是覺得說我也同意說所以剛剛提出來但是你們沒有回應我就算了你們要這樣子那現在提出來那我覺得對啊那個第二款我覺得部分這部分是可以的確應該排除在所謂的直接最高額的這個部分以上"},{"start":8859.369,"end":8879.811,"text":"好 江東我覺得這樣呢有沒有什麼問題如果拿掉的話第二款那我們就回到就是說商主這個第二款之後第二款的部分我們就回到原來的裁罰基準分級據來做考量好 現在用最高處罰的話經過調整的話會剩下就是前項的第一款"},{"start":8881.368,"end":8897.791,"text":"即第六款到第十款大概剩下六項嘛是不是六七八九十對剩下六款剩下六款的話就是不用不用囉嗦直接是最高最高的法環好那我們就這邊把第二款拿掉就確認好那我就再次宣告這個"},{"start":8917.496,"end":8923.485,"text":"好 按照交通部我們剛剛建議的再修正的條文來通過好 請各位翻開第13條27頁27頁"},{"start":8930.593,"end":8958.812,"text":"27月主要是我們林德福委員有提修正案那這個部分修正案其實他後面有說明最主要他把原本的條文拿掉要放在12-1條但12-1條我們已經不以增訂了也就是說也沒有地方可以拿過去了所以這個部分如果大家沒有其他意見的話我們就還是維持原條文不以修正"},{"start":8960.553,"end":8967.856,"text":"好吧各位有沒有不同意見好沒有不同意見好我們就是維持現行調溫接下來進行第15條的協商那徐委員在現場嗎來徐委員來"},{"start":8984.028,"end":9001.187,"text":"交通部你們的看法是什麼這個部分跟在外還有哥倫報告就是說學園這個就是要增訂的部分其實現行在這樣子的違規行為都適用第12條第7款的規定了都已經適用了所以都涵蓋了是吧對對對對對"},{"start":9003.496,"end":9024.192,"text":"好那我們第15條還是維持現行條文不予修訂好各位沒有不同意見我們接續審今天的最後一個條文558585之3我翻到哪裡去了在這29頁29頁這個部分我先請交通部來說明一下好不好"},{"start":9033.587,"end":9051.294,"text":"跟周委還有各位報告基本上就是說85條 蔡經商委員提案85條之上部分是一個配套這個12條那個當場一致保管的一個配套修正條文那我們是建議因為沒有這個第五項的一個規定所以是建議就是說那因為第一項"},{"start":9052.174,"end":9053.774,"text":"所以就是增加一個第一項是不是"},{"start":9083.451,"end":9104.967,"text":"把第五項刪掉第五項是什麼說明一下在原來這一個就是第12條第五項是路邊停車如果又哈牌有問題的話一樣把它做一個一致保管那因為先行這個條文有增修整變所以12條已經沒有第五項那第一項有增訂一致保管"},{"start":9107.967,"end":9136.618,"text":"好那第85條之三啊這個比較單純啊就增加一個第一項好第12條的第一項然後把刪掉的是第五項嘛第五項不要好那各位來黃建豪委員好這個謝朝偉在最後要送出之前呢我想要提一個事情剛剛好像討論到後來沒有結論就是說因為包含汽車租賃公會有來陳情說那個如果是租車"},{"start":9138.51,"end":9145.506,"text":"來處理這部分我覺得先留個記錄是租車然後被被人家使用偽編造車牌的話那個罰或者是那個處分怎麼處理"},{"start":9148.624,"end":9169.71,"text":"這部分跟委員報告如果是租用車輛他提供出去的是一個號牌正常的車輛而是這個成租人他自己去把他換成偽造號牌的這個部分的話這個基本上他是這個行政法法第七條的適用是不處罰這個汽車所有人那就是也是不處罰這個提供租用的車輛因為他提供這個租用的車輛是一個號牌正常的車輛"},{"start":9170.683,"end":9186.24,"text":"好那我再多問一下道德風險那這樣以後要犯罪的人我就去租一輛正常的車然後去變造車牌然後犯罪完之後再把車還給車行那這樣算誰的跟這個就是有人這個報告"},{"start":9189.391,"end":9208.865,"text":"這個因為12條是針對車輛所有人對於號牌本身的這一個管理啦然後這次也特別增訂了如果說像這一類是有增訂這個處罰這個汽車駕駛人的部分那汽車駕駛人以往沒有的部分沒有辦法處罰到的部分這次也有處罰到那另外一個部分就是說"},{"start":9209.985,"end":9230.721,"text":"這個人如果是租了車輛去偽編造這個號牌的話那基本上也涉及到這個刑法那刑法偽造特種文書那法務部現在已經在檢討特種文書刪掉回到一般文書那個這個刑法更重那至於說實務的一個部分的話就當然就是要靠執法跟這個查緝"},{"start":9237.318,"end":9254.954,"text":"好來好主席那我確認一下齁其實也一樣就是黃建豪委員這邊的講法幾個部分第一那是不是未來公務局或是說路政司這邊要求就是我們這個車輛出租業者或是要慎進所謂的一個"},{"start":9256.336,"end":9279.413,"text":"告知責任所以說我們之前也有講譬如說我們禁止酒駕嘛所以說在那個出租的契約上面是不是就要明文標示規定就是說我們提供譬如說這車輛提供的是一個合格的一個車牌那禁止去做偽造變造的車牌的一個使用我想有多一個警語或說多一個告知那"},{"start":9280.535,"end":9287.851,"text":"駕駛人如果說已經有簽名了那也可以避免就釐清這個責任這第一個那第二個是因為我們現在在12條裡面"},{"start":9290.899,"end":9317.926,"text":"第三款你在前面是已經按前項最高額加倍處罰值換言之就是三萬六的加倍七萬二可是你後面又講說非汽車所有人之駕駛人駕駛第一款第三款第六款的第一項規定罰額最高額處罰值所以非汽車所有人的駕駛人如果說違反第三款這個變造偽造車輛那到底是罰七萬二還是三萬六"},{"start":9319.727,"end":9346.185,"text":"我們報告一下第12條這個號牌的管理它的處罰主體在第一項就有明文就意味著是處罰汽車所有人的部分對於汽車駕駛人並沒有處罰那這一次這個就是說編則委員的一個提案我們是建議就是增加除了對汽車所有人的處罰之外如果說是屬於汽車駕駛人明明就有這樣子的情況的話我們希望能夠變法來做一個全面的一個防治"},{"start":9346.585,"end":9367.485,"text":"所以如果是這一天就是說非汽車所有人的部分的話前面汽車所有人就是加倍處罰了那針對非汽車所有人的這個駕駛人就是按照最高法三萬六來做處罰就是併罰所以他的併罰不會比這個應該要負主責的汽車所有人這個來得重"},{"start":9368.105,"end":9384.624,"text":"OK好因為這要釐清我們現在的一個法條啦好那最後我再提一下因為我想假車牌的這個事情非常氾濫我們從之前詢答就已經有但到目前為止社群媒體上面真的還是看得到"},{"start":9385.765,"end":9408.348,"text":"有假車牌因為我一直想想是說我們現在做的是後續最後的一個這個處罰那但是源頭把關很重要那源頭把關當然交通部可能會覺得說源頭把關這可能跟交通部門利有未待他可能包括速發部可能包括NCC可能包括其他的相關經濟部的相關部會但是我們看的是一個結果"},{"start":9409.469,"end":9435.863,"text":"所以我必須講是說到目前為止此時此刻我們在即便是大家都已經講了那麼多假車牌必須要防止但是你真的去查社群媒體平台搜尋車牌再加幾個關鍵字你就可以搜尋得到還是會有這些什麼加LINE私聊然後車牌的一個部分我覺得這個部分真的還是要要求交通部門"},{"start":9437.233,"end":9459.8,"text":"不管是你們主動的去做一個網路上的一個搜尋或者是說跟速發部怎麼樣的來做一個配合以及跟社群媒體平台來要求因為社群媒體平台很清楚明白認知這個就是違法的商品那違法商品就不應該在社群媒體平台上出現嗎我覺得這一點部分是我再一次提出來那我肯定說我們今天有感謝趙偉來排這個修法"},{"start":9461.36,"end":9474.208,"text":"但是除了這個修法的處罰以外更重要是源頭管理因為我們不希望源頭出現讓任何人輕易的獲取這個資訊之後感覺他可以停而走險去購買好不好 以上謝謝好 何清晨委員"},{"start":9481.357,"end":9506.354,"text":"好謝謝趙薇那我也有提出這個版本不過我尊重早上大家的討論因為第12條的修法是非常重要大家對於這個假車牌氾濫用氾濫兩個字你就可以知道民間對於這個假車牌的這一件事這個議題是非常深通誤解因為這牽涉到不是只有一個假車牌它自己本身的問題而已它還延伸出很多的一個"},{"start":9507.014,"end":9520.328,"text":"疑似有犯罪之嫌這個很多很多的一個問題所以包括詐騙所以這個修法很重要所以我也謝謝召委今天在修會之前特地排這個"},{"start":9522.23,"end":9545.659,"text":"修法那我是同樣的也是希望提醒我們交通部這邊除了在稽查這個部分還有我們現在各監理單位事實上都已經電腦化那電腦化的另外一個數位化就是一個他可以即時有效的就大數據的一個管理那我們如何去"},{"start":9547.479,"end":9567.66,"text":"少出稽查或者是防治防範這個假車牌的問題那這是第一個我還是要請教就是我們這個監理系統的一個數位化這個大數據的一個大水庫的這個建制到底現在有沒有跟得上我們想像中的數位台灣的腳步這個當然你可以"},{"start":9570.422,"end":9597.765,"text":"會後再書面資料給我或到我辦公室我們可以來討論那第二個在於剛剛洪孟楷委員在講的源頭管理這個源頭管理當然你們有你們的一個溯源的機制包括從生產製造到後段但是這個源頭管理還包括我們現在在外界上很多的平台上你們可以看到的而這個稽查跟源頭管理我相信不是只有你們"},{"start":9598.325,"end":9620.703,"text":"你們一定要跟警政單位跟其他很多單位要合作那這個合作橫向的一個機制我希望能夠建立而且是長期性的建立這樣子的一個合作的一個機制那這個機制如何建立那未來如何跟警政單位這樣子的保持這樣子的一個合作的一個機制也請會後再來"},{"start":9622.705,"end":9647.877,"text":"送報告給我或是到我辦公室我們可以來討論那我想我們一定要多方面的來解決這一個假車牌氾濫的問題那這樣子才能夠恢復國人對我們政府這個公權力的一個信心跟信任好不好好以上謝謝好謝謝何委員那剛剛第85條之3號我們就按照交通部建議的版本通過"},{"start":9649.352,"end":9657.05,"text":"好 各位沒有問題 那今天審議的幾個條文都已協商完成了齁"},{"start":9658.226,"end":9682.842,"text":"做以下宣告今日協商的結論免予宣讀授權議事人員整理作為決議列入記錄交通部建議條文及相關機關所送書面資料列入公報記錄第二針對於今天審查的結果請交通部補充說明會後送交通委員會製作審查報告並列入記錄刊登公報"},{"start":9690.287,"end":9716.563,"text":"好最後針對今天的會議做以下的決議一討論事項第一案至第二十案道路交通管理處罰條例修正案審查完略並按你據審查報告提報院會討論第二調次引述條文部分文字及法制用字授權主席及議事人員整理"},{"start":9720.908,"end":9741.648,"text":"運會討論時由本人魯召集委員明哲補充說明那第四那這樣的好不好因為大家都蠻有共識的我們會節省後面可能三讀的時間我們運會討論前我們就不需要我們自己黨團再協商了好不好在交通委員會我們就不用再協商了各位有沒有意見沒有沒有意見好"},{"start":9742.981,"end":9755.75,"text":"接下來本次會議議事務授權主席核定後確定請問各位委員對以上決議有無異議沒有沒有異議通過本次會議到此結束謝謝大家現在散會"},{"start":9767.807,"end":9788.456,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"158894","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158894","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1aee8b6a4db9abcb6f5a45ebd5c2e75318b9af4de1086944f10f6f7234e961ca575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:09:50 - 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下位之言請吳麗華委員謝謝主席 有請經濟部次長經濟部連次長"},{"start":22.549,"end":30.377,"text":"市長好市長我在簡報上有一張照片那這個是在印尼的蘇拉威西省"},{"start":31.38,"end":52.259,"text":"那他們正在進行開採的是做電動車電池很重要的鎳礦那這個照片當中有一個背影是當地的原住民那我看了這張照片其實我很有感也很感慨為什麼呢 因為這就是全世界原住民的一個縮影"},{"start":53.92,"end":78.854,"text":"那在這個開採案裡面也有很多的台灣企業投入那我們總是覺得說看到這樣的場景就是會想到國家的法律呢其實限制了或者不承認原住民他們既有的這種謀生方式開墾方式有很多的法令處處限制可是呢我們卻看到國家把森林收為國有而且允許企業進來開採"},{"start":83.217,"end":99.515,"text":"我想这样的一个情景其实是全世界原住民的一个缩影那变成是原住民在自己的土地就是当工人而没有办法在自己的土地去经营这块土地那个是非常令人感到非常遗憾的"},{"start":100.115,"end":103.597,"text":"那為什麼我這樣談因為今天委員會是排了產業創新條例那我自己也做了第22條的一個修正動議那我基本上我想我們肯定在這一次的條例當中可能是基於我們有一些企業那樣是之前新聞很大的就是台塑"},{"start":124.33,"end":142.617,"text":"他們的鋼鐵在越南造成一些污染那我們就發現到說國內國外都無法可制裁而且嚴重的破壞我們的國際形象所以在這樣的一個條例當中我也很肯定但是我希望能夠具體化"},{"start":144.858,"end":162.729,"text":"要件更具體化哪一些要件就是我增加了原住民的權利環境的污染智慧財產權等等希望能夠在事前事後能夠做一個很重要具體的審查要件不曉得次長您覺得如何我原因的這個"},{"start":165.083,"end":180.764,"text":"提議是利益非常良好但是因為我們這個是對外去投資的那對外投資其實我們首先要顧的是跟國際的相關規定有沒有去違反那另外關於有一些制裁或是當地原住民的這些文化其實應該是他要回到"},{"start":181.464,"end":205.141,"text":"當地的相關法令這邊來規範因為就是屬於屬地主義所以這一部分如果是列在我們這個我們國內的這個法令其實相對是市長我想這個事前事後審查是不是在經濟部的手上對對但是那我們也剛剛講了其實我們是因為我們發覺到不要到國外國內都無法制裁而且是嚴重"},{"start":206.062,"end":214.857,"text":"影響我們的國際形象所以在事前事後的審查照理說我們的政府應該要去做這樣的一個審核把關"},{"start":216.82,"end":239.63,"text":"因為這個確實這一部分如果說要列到目前這樣規定其實是在審查上是其實是有點是比較你的意思說行為還沒有發生無法審查對因為他要到當地去有產生一些行為之後他才會發生所以是屬於屬地主義如果他違反了當地的相關的規定他就應該要受到當地的那至少我們是不是也可以在我們可以在"},{"start":241.131,"end":241.331,"text":"我們回過頭來看我們國內"},{"start":254.08,"end":277.132,"text":"現在大家都在做地熱的開發那根據我們經濟部地礦中心這是公開的資料我們可以看到在原住民族地區的大概地熱開發佔了67%也就是說很多的地熱開發區呢都在原住民的地區那我在這邊就是要特別想要請教一下因為"},{"start":278.152,"end":293.659,"text":"我過去在礦業法修法的時候我跟洪森漢委員我們在努力之下也成功的把這個諮商同意的指引也納進去了您應該很清楚那現在我要講的是地熱那你看一下這張圖這個是在花蓮萬榮鄉的紅葉看起來就是在抗議但是我想說有時候並不是部落不願意"},{"start":307.799,"end":320.831,"text":"做開發而是有一些問題像這個他們是因為他在私有地上開發結果呢說不需要進行諮商同意引起化軟"},{"start":322.119,"end":340.214,"text":"次長你將心比心今天來到你的家你的部落要進行這樣的開發但是他說因為是私有地不需要跟你們部落的人來談我覺得這是相當不尊重的行為也不會受歡迎啦你再來看這個是台東金峰鄉的金輪"},{"start":341.215,"end":361.985,"text":"你看一個小小的地方 1 2 3 4 4個地熱開發廠有的專炭中 有的開發中 有的已經發電次長重點是也不用進行諮商同意 因為全部都是在私有地也就是說現在廠商很聰明 我們就專門找私有地"},{"start":363.365,"end":388.881,"text":"那我相信很多的是慢慢做比較快啦像這樣子強行進入其實也造成地方很重大的一個反彈那現在第二個問題是也有問題你看看這個是你們能源署2024年12月31公告出來的你看你們也在亂你們竟然把取得原住民諮商同意放在探勘之後"},{"start":390.221,"end":409.315,"text":"鑽探之後那鑽探期間的噪音 廢水甚至很多是公墓的底下難道不需要跟部落的人來去取得他們的同意跟他們來做說明嗎又或者像是這個前置的行政作業要相公所認定"},{"start":409.975,"end":438.632,"text":"那就很奇怪啦因為這個是要部落同意的為什麼要經由鄉公所那經由鄉公所你看像原基法這個部落諮商同意辦法當然他也開了一個後門明明礦產或土石之專探是需要進行諮商同意辦法可是他在另外的地方又說這個主管機關可以認定如果無侵害之餘或促進原住民土地利用可是鄉公所他如果援引他說"},{"start":439.312,"end":449.58,"text":"促進原住民土地利用所以呢可以那怎麼辦呢他就會含釋排除諮商同意所以我現在只是想要問經濟部的態度您認為整個地熱探勘從他一開始的探勘專探階段需不需要經過部落的諮商同意"},{"start":458.187,"end":484.618,"text":"市長你認為這個我們正在研議我們也跟文明會在做討論看要怎麼去把這樣的一個探勘然後以後要設置那個開發要怎麼跟當地的部落還有當地的居民達到一個很和諧的共識這我目前正在研議我們會來檢討我上次參加第一熱的論壇我也有你們的能源署副署長有參加我也有表達那因為時間的關係主席再給我一分鐘我直接講結論那我希望是"},{"start":488.319,"end":510.906,"text":"這個淨零碳排 2050的目標全世界都在走我們對再生能源的需求我們都知道那其實部落也不是不願意來去做這樣的一個能源開發只是需要尊重那像這些歐盟都會開始做一些許可指南加速這個許可流程 簡化這些框架那我是希望說要去做一個行政指引"},{"start":511.346,"end":518.495,"text":"如同我們上次的礦業法一樣好不好讓他更清楚然後我也希望成立地熱專區的示範點以這個金輪你看現在有四個暗場如果能夠做一個地熱專區的示範點我相信未來要做地熱開發的都可以來到這個地方來去參觀"},{"start":528.567,"end":554.545,"text":"那因為我其他的部分的時間的關係我沒有辦法談那我也可能也會在三月份希望呢應大家的要求我會來辦一個地熱的公聽會那我希望很多的問題到時候呢我們一起來討論一起來促成政府的一個政策的目標能夠達成好不好那我也希望原住民能夠成為我們的一個土地的主人能夠成為資源的共享"},{"start":555.345,"end":579.72,"text":"那正是包括今天的財政部國發會也都有來我也希望一併的來提醒因為我也有盤點像金管會的經費或者是財政部的兆元國家的一個方案我都希望是說到時候我們一直要求的那個礦那些資源能源開發的辦法也都有經費我們一同的來促成讓部落看看如何能夠參與好不好 次長好 謝謝您好 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"158893","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158893","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1ad6ac1d50e1d07b571cb09e2058dd4a02b9af4de1086944f1a584b8aae4e4ec475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:58:54 - 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廳長也好"},{"start":54.738,"end":68.714,"text":"我這樣望眼看去整個立法院裡面如果說要談整個法學素養的深厚跟兩位來做較量的話立法院其實也不敢去講話太過於大聲但是民意機關本來講話聲音就會比較大"},{"start":71.356,"end":96.423,"text":"才好像會彰顯一定的一個聲量可是我還是要針對問題來提問就是說以今天來看司法院來稱為提起憲法訴訟法的一個違憲的一個審查它到底這個機關到底它是不是提起的一個機關那我自己的一個看法我是認為說司法院如果真的有破例的話你們去提起釋憲"},{"start":98.764,"end":121.83,"text":"畢竟你們在新聞稿裡面就提到說整個憲法的訴訟法的修正通過造成憲政機關運作上的一個困難這個其實你們去提起也是一個選項透過釋憲的一個方式這個好像是司法院來提看起來是很矛盾光一個憲法法庭跟司法院的關係就讓外界可以討論得非常久了但是各級法院"},{"start":122.89,"end":138.546,"text":"本來現在是各級法院都可以法官都可以申請釋憲那你說過去你回溯到1995年4-371號的時候當初大審法的時候也只規定最高法院可以申請釋憲而已可是大法官"},{"start":139.568,"end":155.128,"text":"在審理的時候自己的程序的時候他有去認知到各級法院的法官也都是依照法律在獨立審判沒有道理說各級法院就不能去申請所以大法官就一錘定音停止適用只有最高法院可以提起釋憲這樣的一個條文"},{"start":157.543,"end":172.018,"text":"當年1950年是這樣子喔所以在本席看來這件事情如果立法院這樣的一個憲政機關通過了一個法律然後去限縮甚至於癱瘓到你整個司法院尤其是你憲法法庭的一個運作的話"},{"start":173.186,"end":198.266,"text":"那憲法法庭你總不能講說你這個憲訴法條文通過啦我基於我是司法機關那我也不便自己主動去提起然後呢因為條文讓它生效以後你的門檻就是這麼高沒辦法我憲法法庭我就註定要停擺如果司法院或者憲法法庭是基於這樣的一個思維的話這個叫做失職這個叫做怠惰這個是形同拒絕啊"},{"start":199.737,"end":225.709,"text":"憲法法庭啊你整個憲法賦予給你解釋法律到底有沒有違憲這樣的一個權限我不曉得副理事長或廳長你們的看法怎麼樣好啦 廳長大膽說啦你那做有專業的 你就說你的就沒關係了你沒有 跟委員報告就是說剛剛也有別的委員槌尋有關於司法院過去有沒有申請釋憲這部分我們也有回答那當然"},{"start":227.07,"end":245.66,"text":"憲促法的規定其實總統及五院針對這個行使職權的時候所使用的法規範有抵觸憲法的時候都可以來申請解釋憲法所以就司法院來說在法條上面的事格其實是毋庸疑問的當然啦 事實氣條就講得很清楚啦你們就是司法最高機關啦"},{"start":246.26,"end":270.703,"text":"但陳柱剛委員所理解的就是說因為司法院在目前其實司法院院長他同時是司法行政的首長以及身兼憲法法庭審判長的情況之下那這個部分司法院是不是要以司法行政的機關的身份向憲法法庭來提出事先案這個部分可能要由這個我們的首長做全盤的橫著這個哪有問題你提起的話當然你會有迴避的問題啊"},{"start":271.764,"end":286.038,"text":"你是不是到最後你提起司法院院長你本身就迴避就好啦不是這樣子嗎如果真正你們提起了憲法法庭的時候當然你身為一個機關的一個代表人那你司法院院長當然要迴避啊是不是這樣說我是覺得你們是在下一盤大棋啦我個人解讀啦"},{"start":293.786,"end":321.938,"text":"以這一次來看的話我一直會認為說你在限訴法這樣通過以後呢你從過去還不叫憲法法庭大法官會議的時候啊你們所做出來的四至五百三十號裡面講得很清楚 我想廳長你也會很清楚啊審判獨立是基於整個權力分立跟制衡的一個原理啊你司法本來就有一個自主性啊"},{"start":323.237,"end":343.729,"text":"否則你說因為立法院基於民意所通過的一個法令然後把你整個憲法法庭全部給攤換掉你說 我不行我憲法法庭我完全沒有辦法去運作那變成老百姓把這個權利憲法把這個權利交給你們憲法法庭那你們不是太多嗎我不曉得你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":347.049,"end":360.275,"text":"跟我說明就是說事實上你們可以講出很精闢的見解我都認為你身為一個廳長你可以你說副秘書長理的就比較屬於行政可是你們整個憲法法庭你們一個書記處的一個廳長你們看過多少號解釋"},{"start":366.584,"end":378.889,"text":"對不對 每一次大法官來做一個對憲法做出解釋 法律有沒有違背憲法的時候我相信你們都有接觸過很多精闢的一個見解這一個案件到現在來看 我不認為你們沒有著墨"},{"start":382.717,"end":409.156,"text":"回答委員的提問就是有關委員剛剛提到包括4-530還有過去在我們視線跟憲法訴訟判決時務那確實大法官或憲法法庭有關於憲法法庭的程序自主這個部分確實有過琢磨但是在具體的個案上面程序自主權如何的放射到什麼樣的範圍那因為目前我們討論的這個案子已經細數在憲法法庭"},{"start":409.716,"end":417.021,"text":"那身為司法行政我們真的不變多表示意見那可能就要看大法官他們在這樣的具體個案裡面他們怎麼去"},{"start":418.584,"end":439.013,"text":"解釋適用憲法訴訟法其實如果要討論說整個現在系屬在憲法法庭的案件的話現在也有不少喔就算憲訴法你說複義了嘛你說當它真正生效以後啊生效以後連憲法法庭在解釋這些案件已經系屬在法院這些案件的時候"},{"start":439.693,"end":467.939,"text":"你總不能每一件都說我現在我現在平益 我現在人數根本全部都不夠我沒有達到這個門檻我全部把老百姓申請的 全部不管是機關或老百姓所申請的全部都不受理掉 全部癱瘓掉每一件都不能解釋那要這個憲法法庭幹什麼那你們就完全受制於立法機關啊這也不對啊立法機關當然是代表民意啊但是我們的憲法的設計不是只有單一的叫立法機關代表國家"},{"start":469.417,"end":488.017,"text":"我們憲政機關不是只有立法機關啦我們憲政機關是權力分立啊我們憲政機關講的還是一個制衡的一個原理啊所以我是覺得你們這樣扭扭捏捏我覺得廳長這樣聽起來好像也不對那以現在這一次來看你說行政院的政委提出的說預防性權力的一個救濟的一個可能性"},{"start":489.895,"end":512.108,"text":"以現在來看的話 憲法訴訟法第一條開宗明義講的就這幾個類型 我們很清楚可是以過去的案例 大法官在解釋的時候他自己大法官的解釋 大法官會議解釋 等於現在憲法法庭的解釋他解釋出來就等於形同憲法 不是嗎 廷長這個可以認同嗎"},{"start":513.539,"end":521.389,"text":"是 他解釋不是來形同一個憲法那過去大法官在解釋大審法的時候他也跟你說你那個大審法不對"},{"start":523.803,"end":543.942,"text":"只有最高法院可以申請釋憲這是不對的因為本於整個基於審判獨立所有各級法院它全部都是獨立審判所以各個法院的法官他都可以獨立提出申請把整個大審法就把你給幹掉啦那同樣的基於同樣的一個法理啊還不是一樣嗎如果我現在是大法官我就採取這樣的一個精神"},{"start":545.353,"end":570.106,"text":"不是說為了什麼哪一個政黨你司法不用嘛司法你本來就是代表國家嘛哪一個政黨來那只是他本身是給予短短幾年名譽賦予他執政的一個機會而已嘛可是你司法你是整個國家你再延續下去的人你要看他合不合理欸如果任何人哪天假設民進黨真的是哪天在野啦然後發生了我們這個國會裡面的一個多數我們也像藍白聯手這樣亂幹的話你癱瘓掉整個司法制度"},{"start":575.475,"end":599.235,"text":"本席齊齊以為不可但是這個議題當然是值得討論你說到底是要用暫時處分的方式或者說整個預防性權利的一個救濟措施我也知道會有贊成的我也知道會有反對各自都言之成理各自都言之成理可是重點本席的重點不在這個地方本席的重點是在於說如果因為"},{"start":602.588,"end":619.78,"text":"大家都講求民意 司法機關還在講什麼民意司法機關你一個系屬在法院的一個案件不管你憲法法庭 或者各個法院哪一個人 多有民意法院可不管這一些喔尹錫悅剛剛不是被逮捕了嗎對不對 韓國總統啊那選出來也都很大的民意啊"},{"start":625,"end":650.911,"text":"很大的民意啊你司法機關哪有管你什麼民意司法機關你代表的就是國家啊你說總統是不是代表國家 當然算啦他對外是代表一個國家啊可是你一個司法機關裡面你也是國家最高的一個司法機關啊你本來就是基於獨立審判啊你不能去拒絕啊你不能是一個民意機關定出一個法律要把你整個憲法法令把你給趟換掉那你就說啊沒辦法立法院來的這些東西我們要遵守是這樣子嗎立法院我們法律很多都是亂定的欸"},{"start":656.601,"end":669.645,"text":"你們難道不知道審法的過程裡面嗎那是很 有些聲音法學或者說基於法律的一個原理所定出來的有時候常常在問你們的意見啊那反而這一些我們不問你們意見沒有問你們意見就會出問題不是說你們的意見不能挑戰可是當你們的意見完全都不受立法機關來尊重的時候問題就來了這一部法律就是這樣來的涉及到整個政黨的鬥爭裡面啊就會產生很大的一個問題啊"},{"start":686.397,"end":709.215,"text":"我們在座幾位委員啊我們也不可能一輩子都是當立法委員啦所以這種國家基本的憲政法理我還懂我還懂贊成的我認為言之成理反對的我也認為言之成理都可以去討論可是呢你憲法法令你總是要做一個決定啊你不能被繳卸掉啊不是這樣子嗎 廳長"},{"start":712.953,"end":726.747,"text":"跟委員說明就是針對目前三讀修正通過的限訴法那確實已經有不少案件有對這個部分來申請釋憲或者是暫時處分那我們相信下法庭會做適當的處理是啦 您當然會不好意思說但是我總會覺得 你看我再舉一號"},{"start":732.273,"end":758.646,"text":"你像你們在釋字在第599號裡面的理由書這講得很清楚喔爭議的法令的一個適用可能對人民的基本權利憲法基本原則或其他重大公義造成不可恢復或難以恢復的重大損害的時候而對損害的防止事實上具有局迫性的且別無其他手段可知防免時得權衡做成暫時處分之利益跟不做成暫時處分之不利益"},{"start":759.426,"end":764.756,"text":"你看看喔 利益顯然大於不利益 申請人的申請 以本案作為前等作為暫時處分 定暫時狀態他談的就是可能"},{"start":768.973,"end":792.822,"text":"你們四字599也在談這一號喔所以我現在倒覺得啦 我們司法院有點在玩大富翁遊戲啦到了要抽籤的時候 你們到底是會抽到這個幸運卡或者說你的機會就是你先去提起預防訴訟來做一個救濟這個命運就是說 你只能乖乖的去等法律聖教提起暫時處分"},{"start":795.666,"end":823.033,"text":"這個是你要抽的是機會還是這個命運這個值得司法院好好去做一個思考但是我在這邊再一次的建議再一次的一個建議司法院到我們司法法治委員會我還是期待你們拿出你們最專業的見解不卑不亢看到國會議員哪怕是聲音很大的嘶吼的哪怕是破護罵結型的"},{"start":824.212,"end":847.932,"text":"站在你們自己司法機關專業的立場不卑不亢去回應就好畢竟你們也叫做憲政機關啦平常你們只是預算在我們這個地方你說立法院基於整個憲政的一個設計我們確實有監督之權可是我們對於司法院來看的話我都覺得應該是多一份的一個尊重"},{"start":849.173,"end":866.223,"text":"人民當然對司法有很高的一個期待啊司法確實是 以現在來看的話我從過去一直看民調從以前 副民主黨這個你就要特別注意了我就從當學生的時候一直看到現在司法的滿意度就不要管過你不管誰執政"},{"start":867.628,"end":895.637,"text":"就真的就沒有高過問題出在哪裡我也不知道司法國事會議我們也開開完以後呢陷入一些肢解頭痛一頭腳痛一腳可是到最後民調每一次出來以後我相信法律人都非常洩氣這值得我們彼此再去努力的一個地方可是到國會以後我還是期許你們拿出你們最專業拿出你們最專業然後呢這個案件以現在來看的話"},{"start":896.317,"end":900.863,"text":"我覺得司法案其實你們本身就可以為自己找到解方以上 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法務部部長鄭明謙等人主席 中招救援嘉賓報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二 邀請司法院法務部帥所屬相關單位列席就號召民眾上街對抗司法審判者為妨害司法公正罪之限刑犯進行專題報告並被質詢決定報告及詢討完畢討論事項 並二審查行政院行刑審議律師法第九條條文修正常案等三案"},{"start":1854.235,"end":1883.935,"text":"本次会有委员黄国昌等12人提出质询,文林思明等2人提出书面质询。决议一报告及询答完毕,进行逐条审查。二,第九条,除第六项手续修正为律师于本法中华民国108年12月13日修正之条文施行前,有第五条第一项第一款情形者外,于照行政院提案通过。三,本案审查完毕,拟据审查报告提请论会公决,不需交由党团协商,因为讨论时由中交协员嘉宾出席说明。"},{"start":1884.555,"end":1885.716,"text":"請問各位就上次會議的議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":1904.887,"end":1931.203,"text":"沒有的話 一速確定 接著我們介紹在場委員及應邀列席官員首先我們介紹的是羅志強委員黃國昌委員接著我們介紹思考院副秘書長 王梅英副秘書長法務部行政訴訟及懲戒廳廳長陳怡怡憲法法庭書記廳廳長楊皓青"},{"start":1935.081,"end":1959.223,"text":"法務部政次 黃士傑政次法務部法制司司長 洪嘉元司長本次議程排定司法訴訟事務上有關預防性權力救濟適用專題報告並被質詢現在進行報告發言時間五分鐘 請司法院副秘書長王梅英報告"},{"start":1967.11,"end":1973.016,"text":"好 主席各位委員和各位先進大家早安那今天很榮幸的奉邀"},{"start":1974.986,"end":2003.806,"text":"來報就那個司法訴訟實務上關於預防性權力就界適用來為本院做說明那請請大家指教這個起源是因為憲法十六條呢他保障了人民有訴訟權那所以在權力受到侵害的時候呢可以跟法院提起訴訟救濟那因此呢權力的救濟他原則上是要權力已經受到侵害為前提但是"},{"start":2004.646,"end":2019.874,"text":"在有特別權力保護必要的情況下那在權力還沒有發生損害也就是說將來很有可能會發生的時候呢這時候會例外的給予救濟那這就是學理上所稱的預防性權力救濟制度"},{"start":2020.974,"end":2035.139,"text":"在各個訴訟程序還有暫時權力保護的制度在個案中可以在提起本案訴訟緩不濟急的時候可以停止執行定暫時處分的狀態來填補一直到本案訴訟判決前一段時間的保護"},{"start":2042.282,"end":2063.099,"text":"那以下緊究就是各個那個訴訟來分別做說明民事訴訟法呢是在246條它規定了一個這個將來解副之訴就是說請求權雖然還沒有到期可是在欲有請求的那個必要的時候可以提起之那另外在民事訴訟法538條它也定了一個這個暫時狀態的那個處分那家事"},{"start":2070.744,"end":2086.491,"text":"訴訟 家事事件法它有那個准用到民事也有這些相關的規定那它在家事事件法中就這個暫時權利的保護也有書面以上所說的就是各種的這種機制那行政訴訟那個部分行政訴訟法115條它准用"},{"start":2089.392,"end":2111.145,"text":"民事訴訟246條的這個將來給付之訴那另外呢就是行政法院的實務還有學說呢都認為在行政訴訟法第8條它所規定的這個一般給付訴訟呢它有包括到了這個預防性的不作為訴訟那這個也是預防性權利救濟最重要的一種那個類型"},{"start":2112.466,"end":2139.464,"text":"那人民呢可以請求行政法院判決命令行政機關在將來不可以做成損害他權利的的這個處分那當然就是說這是一個很特殊的一個情形所以說他的要件非常的嚴格一定要有特別權利保護的這個必要性那在這邊呢有舉了一個那個例子就是說"},{"start":2141.485,"end":2161.546,"text":"最高法院曾经有一个判决中华民国那个红十字总会呢他先前依中华民国那个红十字会法取得了那个法人资格那这个法呢在105年公告的时候废止了那中华民国红十字总会呢他怕他之后呢会遭到内政部"},{"start":2162.567,"end":2180.819,"text":"廢止他的登記所以呢他就預先提起了這個不作為訴訟請求法院判令內政部呢不可以廢止他的人民團體那個登記那這就是一個就是典型的一個案例那另外行政訴訟法298條也規定了這個暫時處分"},{"start":2187.694,"end":2208.451,"text":"那至於在那個憲法訴訟法的那個部分呢憲法訴訟法第一條它規定了憲法法庭它可以審理的各種案件類型那它並沒有直接明文規定就是以預先與預防性的權利救濟作為審理的案件類型這是第一點齁"},{"start":2209.352,"end":2233.648,"text":"那第二點還可以討論的就是說 憲訴法的46條它規定說行政訴訟法的規定除本法或者是審理規則別有規定之外呢和本法性質不相抵觸的時候準用之所以呢憲法法庭在審理案件的時候呢如果說性質不相抵觸的範圍內它是可以準用"},{"start":2234.268,"end":2254.317,"text":"行政訴訟法的那至於說在個案中呢行政訴訟法它有關這個預防性權利救濟的規定到底和憲訴法的性質有沒有相抵觸呢那這個部分或者是說有沒有准用這個部分因為是屬於憲法法庭它個案審理的審判核心事項"},{"start":2255.517,"end":2278.648,"text":"這部分本院作為司法行政我們尊重大法官獨立審判另外在限訴法中有關於權力保護的部分就是暫時處分規定在限訴法43條相關的適用也是基於以上的說明以上報告敬請各位委員先進指教謝謝大家"},{"start":2281.462,"end":2306.48,"text":"好 謝謝 那現在為我們麻煩法務部政次 黃政次報告主席 各位委員 各位女士先生今日奉邀列席貴人會就司法訴訟實務上關於預防性權利救濟之適用請代表法務部列席並被質詢之報告說明如下"},{"start":2308.161,"end":2330.009,"text":"關於這個預防性權利救濟的具體的法律條文從這個歷史的眼光來看最早是在民事輸送法的規定那麼現行的246條規定這個所謂的將來給付之數事實上這個條文在民國19年的時候就已經有訂定了那麼在民國89年的時候修正如目前這個條文所示"},{"start":2330.749,"end":2356.181,"text":"那當時是為了擴大將來給付之數的適用範圍參照日本德國的立法例修正為有預為請求之必要者均得提起將來給付之數那當然他有一定的這個書上這個適用的所寫的這個法律要件包括代替性補充性或者是判決宣示後使刀騎士繼續性給付這樣子的情形才可以來提起這個將來給付之數那麼在"},{"start":2360.348,"end":2386.367,"text":"這個實務上有累積了很多的判決包含書面報告所載最高法院109年度台上至第2778號民事裁定以及台灣高等法院104年度上至第1279號民事裁定等等但是將來警務指數在民事訴訟上呢雖可避免原告權力實現之時機延後但亦可能增加被告事後究竟的困難及負擔"},{"start":2387.108,"end":2387.348,"text":"那如果這個"},{"start":2404.336,"end":2419.097,"text":"實務上的例子認為說如果預約請求者有對待給付制限制的話呢就不能夠提起那麼誠如剛才司法院副秘書長的報告行政訴訟法也有准用民主訴訟法前階條文的規定那麼是以在這個"},{"start":2421.48,"end":2436.73,"text":"一般學理上認為行政訴訟法第八條所謂的給付訴訟包含這樣的一個學理上稱為預防性不作為訴訟那麼書面報告引述最高法院"},{"start":2438.131,"end":2456.322,"text":"103年度判製第329號判決裡面其實將這一個訴訟的要件做了相當程度的具體化包含了很多要件,比如蓋然性、重大損害性以及特別權利保護之必要性等等請參閱書面,因為有點多,時間不夠另外在"},{"start":2463.567,"end":2489.744,"text":"事用上要注意的就是說人民向行政法院請求判命行政機關未來不得做成損害及權利之行政行為之不作為訴訟也就是稱為這個預防性不作為訴訟用這個行政訴訟所禁止的行為除了行政機關的行政處分之外也可以包含事實行為或其他可能侵害其權利之一切行政行為那麼預防性不作為訴訟因為具有事前審查性質"},{"start":2490.704,"end":2517.327,"text":"為了避免司法權過早介入行政權的決定空間以規避訴訟宣言前之程序之可能故僅在人民將因行政機關做成之行政主憤或其他公權力行為而有發生重大損害之餘或無可回復之重大不利的時候且須在事後究竟已無失意或無期待人民等到行政行為做成後再尋行政究竟途徑的情形下"},{"start":2517.927,"end":2535.983,"text":"才具有所謂的特別保護權力的必要性那麼司法權在這個情況底下時可事前介入審判換言之只有在訴願跟撤銷訴訟不能達成有效權力保護的情形權力無從及時受到保護時才例外的來允許提起此類訴訟"},{"start":2537.544,"end":2561.785,"text":"那麼由於這個民事適用法、行政適用法並非本部所主管之法規那麼本部即所屬機關亦非適用上開機關做成裁判或決定之機關是以相關條文之要件含涉範圍及在實務個案之具體適用本部均尊重司法院及各級法院基於這個法規主管之用之地位"},{"start":2562.305,"end":2572.917,"text":"或個案審判的這個審判機關之地位本與審判獨立所作之解釋以上報告進行指教謝謝謝謝次長機關報告完畢相關書面內容列入公報記錄我們補充介紹中嘉賓召委"},{"start":2581.77,"end":2596.481,"text":"現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請登記第一位委員黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":2611.171,"end":2619.62,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請我們司法院的副秘書長憲法法庭書記廳廳長法務部政務次長好 麻煩上台"},{"start":2628.238,"end":2648.756,"text":"三位好,時間的關係不宜問候老實說今天召委也很辛苦竟然就所謂的司法訴訟實務上預防性權力救濟的應用排了一個專題報告老實說這個專題報告之所以會發生就是民進黨的官員為了要去貫徹民進黨的意志"},{"start":2653.766,"end":2663.487,"text":"把腦袋動到憲法法庭裡面所想出來的一個怪招為了要處理這個怪招我必須要老實講"},{"start":2665.499,"end":2691.229,"text":"預防訓的全力救濟這也不是什麼深奧的大道理所有大三修過訴訟法的人通通都知道是怎麼回事民事訴訟法246條將來幾付之數什麼是有預為請求之必要修過大三民事訴訟法的人心裡都很有數那重點是什麼重點是這樣子的東西把它放在憲法訴訟的脈絡當中嗎我們一步一步來看"},{"start":2694.315,"end":2712.709,"text":"行政院 政委林明欣是不是有找人送案來 請司法院標題是司法院曖昧吧 有還是沒有跟委員說明 目前沒有收到行政院送的案子他有找其他的案子的訴訟代理人在其他案子裡面申請"},{"start":2714.926,"end":2738.218,"text":"暫時狀態的處分嗎林政委有沒有找別人這個我毫無所惜那目前有人民就原本已經申請細數的案件申請暫時處分好說得很好有人名就申請細數的案件申請暫時處分申請暫時處分的那個案件從提出一開始的事先申請到現在有多久了"},{"start":2740.512,"end":2754.313,"text":"跟委員說明這個部分的案件的類型跟時間都不一樣有的是最近才提出的申請案有的是之前就已經申請的案件之前申請的案件最早的有多久委員稍等我一下我核對一下資料回覆"},{"start":2757.424,"end":2775.743,"text":"根據我目前手上的資料目前有提出申請案暫時處分的部分最草的本案系署日 以我手邊目前掌握的資料應該是111年的2022年嘛對 111年的9月好 2022年到現在多久啦"},{"start":2777.827,"end":2798.593,"text":"呃兩年多兩年多了嘛我為什麼問你這個問題定暫時狀態的處分除了必要性以外還有急迫性嘛這個案子在憲法法庭睡了兩年多之前都沒有急迫性啦現在急迫性突然發生啦為什麼在法界淪為笑話這就是道理嘛再往下看啦李明欣說啊"},{"start":2805.219,"end":2811.304,"text":"法律案沒有生效以前可以成為釋憲的標的,是法院贊成嗎?這個部分我們在報告中已經做了那個說明了什麼說明?尊重憲法法庭?是的真的嗎?尊重憲法法庭所以沒有辦法說明,是這樣嗎?"},{"start":2828.639,"end":2842.468,"text":"這個部分就是還是要回到那個沒有生效的法律可不可以成為釋憲的標的這是一個標準的抽象法律問題啊司法院現在連這件事情都不敢表示意見喔那個委員這個部分在個案適用中的時候這不是個案適用這是法律原則喔"},{"start":2852.413,"end":2874.181,"text":"沒有生效的法律可不可以成為事件的標的這是一個抽象的法律問題啊請教司法院的立場是什麼在憲法訴訟法第一條呢它是沒有規範這種案件類型沒有規範這種案件類型嗎那你們當初在推憲法訴訟法的時候有要創設這種法律生效以前的違憲審查制度嗎"},{"start":2877.543,"end":2887.049,"text":"有嗎跟委員說明就我的了解當時沒有討論到當時沒有討論到你確定嗎你確定嗎就條文的立法理由來看的話"},{"start":2890.031,"end":2910.494,"text":"我審過的東西啊我都會記得很清楚啊來先看一下憲法訴訟法刑事上面46條準用行政訴訟法115條再準用民事訴訟法246條你要看一下準用啊除了有特別規定以外還要跟本法性質不相抵觸啊"},{"start":2911.618,"end":2936.812,"text":"要跟本法性質不相抵觸啊才有準用的可能跟空間嘛現在的問題在哪裡我國的違憲審查制度從以前到現在都是針對已經生效的法律都是針對已經生效的法律跟在法國他們透過破毀法院能夠預先提早進行法規範憲法審查"},{"start":2939.423,"end":2964.363,"text":"是兩套完全不同的制度啊在每一本憲法教科書裡面啊全部都有寫每一本憲法教科書全部都有寫這麼基本的東西啊你們司法院到今天突然不敢表示立場我為什麼說突然不敢表示立場剛剛司法院的代表說在修法的歷程當中從來沒有成為真典說謊"},{"start":2967.478,"end":2970.002,"text":"說謊我為什麼說說謊來看一下2019年修法的時候憲法訴訟法那個時候2019年我們2018到2019年修法嘛來看一下"},{"start":2985.744,"end":3011.986,"text":"2018年修法的時候司法院明確表示總統沒有公布的法律不可以成為事件標的為什麼我記得這件事情因為當初提出這個問題的就是我當初司法院的秘書長是呂太郎我們看一下我當初怎麼問他的幾件事情請教司法院第一件事情你們在界定就期行使職權可以申請事件成熟的時間點是什麼時候"},{"start":3014.671,"end":3034.327,"text":"呂秘書長太郎怎麼講的目前我們的制度跟法國不太一樣法國憲法委員會是有部分國家憲政顧問的作用可以先問憲法委員會我們這邊沒有所以我們的制度來設計法律案沒有成為法律案不能夠先問大法官的意見這呂太郎講的"},{"start":3036.533,"end":3057.226,"text":"在立法院公報白紙黑字他第二段怎麼講的在我們條文49條裡面是就其行使職權認為法律未接的法規範他基本上已經有一個法律的效力在裡面才有如果立法院還沒有通過總統還沒有公佈實施他基本上還沒有法規範的問題"},{"start":3059.569,"end":3080.122,"text":"這是當初憲法訴訟法在審查的時候我那時候第一次當立法委員在立法院裡面跟立法院跟司法院的秘書長呂太郎彼此之間的對答來請教一下司法院的官員司法院的官員當初在立法院推動憲法訴訟法的時候當時秘書長講的話算不算話來請副秘書長"},{"start":3086.308,"end":3113.66,"text":"不好意思喔 對廳長沒有不敬啊但你的成績不夠啊這個要請副秘書長回答當初呂太郎是在立法院裡面欺騙立法委員嗎是這樣嗎還是現在反正呂太郎他也高升大法官了不關他的事了所以現在的司法院沒有要認賬當初呂太郎當秘書長的時候在立法院所講的話"},{"start":3116.095,"end":3144.787,"text":"來 請教副秘書長這個部分我們尊重當時的那個呂秘書長的意見當時的呂秘書長是代表他個人嗎他是代表司法院來立法院針對憲法訴訟法如何解釋適用立法規範的意思是什麼到立法院來進行立法說明憲法訴訟法當初提到立法院來審議的是哪一個機關就是司法院嘛"},{"start":3146.141,"end":3174.102,"text":"立法院在審法案的時候針對你們當初憲法訴訟法的設計提出了問題立法過程當中立法過程當中立法者的原意到底是什麼就透過這樣的詢答很清楚的展現出來了嘛所以我才問嘛司法院的立場是改變了嗎是遇到民進黨有政治上的需求遇到綠色"},{"start":3176.124,"end":3188.856,"text":"有政治上的需求我們台灣的法律制度是可以配合著執政黨有政治上的需求就變來變去嗎是這樣嗎來 請司法院副秘書長表達立場"},{"start":3192.932,"end":3206.57,"text":"法律的解釋就是當時立法者的討論的意思這當然是一種解釋所以我們尊重當時黎秘書長的意見剛才也講了就是說在限訴法第一條它可以規範類型裡頭的第一款"},{"start":3209.474,"end":3225.205,"text":"法規範的那個審查這邊的那個法律當然是指已經生效那個法律可是就是這個地方是不是還有46條這個地方的一個那個解釋當然這個是個案在試用的時候那是憲法法律你們可以這樣子變來變去喔"},{"start":3227.466,"end":3248.685,"text":"同一個司法院2019年要審限訴法來立法院說一套現在配合民進黨政府的需求又講另外一套為什麼這樣的司法人民沒有辦法信任為什麼這樣的司法人民沒有辦法信任為什麼司法的公信力會不斷的降低我希望"},{"start":3249.446,"end":3271.017,"text":"司法院回去好好深思這個問題第二個比較小技術上面的問題我要拜託司法院的官員以後送來立法院的報告這不是新聞司法院送來立法院的報告嚴肅對待我為什麼這樣子講有一個東西叫做定暫時狀態的假處分嗎法律用語是這樣嗎"},{"start":3273.793,"end":3302.32,"text":"應該是定暫時狀態的處分吧怎麼會有定暫時狀態的假處分你說一般法律系的學生一般的假處分跟定暫時狀態的處分分不清楚這還情有可原司法院犯這種錯誤就贏效大方了啦你同一份喔送到立法院來的書面資料又有寫定暫時狀態的假處分又有寫定暫時狀態的處分大家看了以後啊覺得哇"},{"start":3303.2,"end":3324.838,"text":"我們司法院的水準是這樣 讓人嘆為觀止啊副秘書長 我有沒有說錯這邊是一個疏失是一個疏失嘛 你不要以後讓法律系的學生說老師不對啊 我們司法院的官員送來立法院的報告都有寫定暫時狀態的假處分啊所以這個詞的使用沒有問題啊"},{"start":3328.246,"end":3346.351,"text":"基本啊 法律人交出來的東西要由法律人交出來的樣子這個是我非常卑微的要求拜託司法院以後注意這些事情 可以嗎謝謝指正 我們以後會把頓號加上去頓號 你多了一個假字耶這個是頓號的問題嗎定暫時狀態處分 然後頓號來來來 第一頁"},{"start":3353.001,"end":3360.947,"text":"定暫時狀態假處分第一頁的時候第一頁就寫錯啦這是一個頓耗的問題嗎是嗎你有沒有看到錯了就錯了啦好來 請法務部我非常的困惑"},{"start":3379.164,"end":3387.287,"text":"我在第一個第一次當立委的時候針對通緝犯查緝系統必須要處理好的這件事情"},{"start":3388.379,"end":3416.815,"text":"我講了好幾次喔我講了好幾次喔通緝犯查緝系統要統合你們那個時候拖了半天政委羅秉成結果搞了半天啊搞一個東西出來我說調查局有一個刑事警察局有一個高等檢察署有一個一人一把號各吹各的調就是不願意統合起來林秉文這個重大的通緝犯喔被通緝了"},{"start":3417.996,"end":3433.901,"text":"結果找了半天我第一時間啊三個平台通通都沒有三個平台通通都沒有結果被我質詢了以後刑事警察局趕快補上去了請問台灣高檢署的系統補充了沒有"},{"start":3435.825,"end":3452.038,"text":"跟委員報告因為林秉文這個個案現在是在審判中所以是由院方來發布的通緝所以台灣高檢署的通緝系統只要訴訟細數了到院方在台灣高檢署的系統就沒有"},{"start":3452.558,"end":3481.491,"text":"因為我們各個機關發布通緝的時候呢它都會在這個上面沒有顯示的第四個系統是全國的監警調人員都可以直接查詢的那個系統雖然因為各自隱私的關係所以這個全部都可以查詢的系統是沒有這個圖像的但是那個系統只要發布了之後就會跟你們講只要建置一個統一的通緝犯系統的理由嘛你有各自上的限制又沒有照片"},{"start":3483.713,"end":3498.086,"text":"阿怎麼發揮公告的效果這個公告是要看有沒有必要向國內的人民來公告我先停一下你覺得林秉文有沒有必要跟國內的人民公告我想新聞報導都已經有所以只要用新聞的報導就可以取代通緝辦的查信系統嗎"},{"start":3502.87,"end":3515.86,"text":"這三個系統是各個犯罪偵查的機關辦刑事警察局調查局跟高檢署他們根據自己業務的需要自行製作的系統我請法務部再回去看一看"},{"start":3516.901,"end":3541.805,"text":"當初為什麼會建制要求建制一個統一的系統回去再看一看你們繼續不做我就很清楚的跟你講你們繼續不做我就一定反映在預算審查上全國人民都可以當一個公正的裁判對不起喔我現在還沒有請你講話可以請你不要插話嗎可以請你不要插話嗎可以請你不要插話嗎"},{"start":3547.628,"end":3560.9,"text":"全國的人民都可以做一個評判遇到特定跟民進黨權貴有關係的大咖通緝犯查詢系統不敢登啊不敢登啊"},{"start":3563.056,"end":3580.905,"text":"這樣子的司法部門 要如何取得人民的信賴最後一個問題啊 檢察官跟無乃人在這邊驗癮黃委員 黃委員先等一下 因為我以前主持會議一路以來我的慣例就是如此 盡量讓大家暢所欲言"},{"start":3581.445,"end":3595.817,"text":"所以以前不管吳思耀委員或是柯建民委員或是中召委我都讓你們講那我會站起來那就大家各自能夠控制一下時間那待會中召委如果你要講兩小時我也可以陪在這邊陪你站"},{"start":3596.698,"end":3612.735,"text":"好來 最後一個問題檢察官跟無奶人進出高檔的餐廳一客七千塊起跳包廂低銷六萬法務部說啟動行政調查調查出來沒有目前還沒有"},{"start":3613.582,"end":3631.345,"text":"還要多久這個我們回去再跟高檢署跟北檢來詢問一下好 什麼時候可以回覆這麼簡單的事情要拖這麼久晚一點就可以回覆辦案的效率太差了吧這麼簡單的事情要拖這麼久辦案的效率可以這麼差喔"},{"start":3633.354,"end":3661.913,"text":"請法務部啊 回去啊清楚的告訴全責機關因為是法務部跟社會講說要啟動行政調查嘛所以我當然就問法務部嘛到底還需要多久這樣可以嗎馬上回覆喔看你們到底還要調查多久因為全國人民在等著看啊我們的檢察官是什麼官僧啊是什麼官僧啊最後 主席我只講一件事啦"},{"start":3662.794,"end":3687.137,"text":"我今天在這邊質詢我站在上面質詢中嘉賓從頭到尾在下面騷擾我不想因為他的騷擾而中斷了我的質詢基本上你組織會議我都尊重那至於中嘉賓指控我超時中嘉賓你回去自己看看啦你以前超時的時候有人在下面干擾你嗎不要這麼沒有品啦好 謝謝"},{"start":3688.595,"end":3710.052,"text":"好 謝謝各位因為基本上我自己主持會議就這樣嘛你看我之前主持會議除非當天要發言的人非常多我們才盡量去控制否則我都是尊重各位委員的發言那時間到然後過一下我會站起來那就是再麻煩委員能夠控制一下發言的時間好 那下一位我們麻煩鍾嘉斌召委發言"},{"start":3725.854,"end":3751.822,"text":"主席我尊重召委的主持所以我在台下呢跟主席表示也沒有按麥克風完全尊重主席的才智我也沒有動用權宜問題程序發言按著麥克風講了二三十分鐘那至於剛剛的發言者講多少時間因為您是主席您同意我就沒有意見那我自己呢我會盡量的來遵守在立法院本來就是一個互相尊重的場合謝謝總統謝謝"},{"start":3753.903,"end":3767.75,"text":"好 那麼接下來我們在場已經沒有委員先進了那列席的政府機關首長官員會長工作夥伴媒體接任女士先生那麼有請司法院的王副秘書長還有書記廳的楊廳長廳長以及法務部的黃次長黃次長那首先副秘書長不好意思要注意因為"},{"start":3779.898,"end":3803.886,"text":"有委員常常會提醒他的發言全國人民都在看那第二個呢請教一下方便的話回答一下個人的問題您參加過論文的口試嗎就是學術論文的口試學位論文的口試是的在德國在德國其實呢在台灣的教授們當你論文口試的時候標點或者湊別字你都不要去"},{"start":3806.888,"end":3821.944,"text":"說有辯駁就承認就對了尤其是有學術背景當過教授的委員特別會希望您是就論文審查的規格來回答他的詢問那第三個呢也是有點個人啦您覺得未來自己有沒有可能成為大法官"},{"start":3824.11,"end":3841.056,"text":"有可能不一定但有可能不排除這個可能個人沒有這個志向沒有這個志向但是也有可能假設有照一日那如果有照一日你成為大法官的時候要時時記得這個政黨的主席會雙標代理黨主席會雙標"},{"start":3842.236,"end":3854.473,"text":"那他會要求你過去跟現在跟未來言行必須一致到時候萬一您擔任大法官那您的過去現在的答詢雖然只是一個法律上的見解也會拿來做引用您有記住了嗎"},{"start":3857.861,"end":3874.745,"text":"接下來我不做法律系大三以上的課程的教授我只做一般公民法感上他在理解現實生活中他遇到的法律問題我請問一下黃次長看起來你應該比較常看電影 你有沒有看過湯姆克魯斯的關鍵報告"},{"start":3876.606,"end":3891.404,"text":"很久以前有看過看過 有印象吧後面兩位有沒有印象我們比較輕鬆一點 有沒有印象有沒有看過 都沒有那我就問黃次長 他們都說沒有這個當中呢這個Tom Cruise他本來是一個受國家的執法機關的人員"},{"start":3892.265,"end":3919.15,"text":"他們這個當時的科幻片的情節呢是有個先知可以偵測出人的犯罪意圖可以預知未來的犯罪結果因此如果他預知張三有犯罪那麼這個特勤呢就會在他犯罪之前予以逮捕或獲刑大概是這樣吧是您覺得在哲學上這樣的做法一個人還沒犯罪之前因為預知他會犯罪先把他抓起來這個在哲學上有沒有問題啊"},{"start":3922.145,"end":3944.187,"text":"因為這個是科幻電影所以他的事實設定的條件跟我們現實生活中不太一樣就是必須說這個預知的犯罪是必然會發生的不做事前的逮捕 不妨礙挽救所以如果預知一定會成真預告的情況一定會發生 那就要及時阻止在那個設定裡面是沒有蓋然性的問題"},{"start":3944.952,"end":3953.464,"text":"是 是這樣子但是人為了自己沒有犯的罪去坐牢這個就有點奇怪了啦我還那時候在看電影是想不通但是我們洗碼上是不是有類似的規定"},{"start":3955.595,"end":3981.788,"text":"委員在螢幕上所顯示的這個是新訴法101-1條的預防性羈押的規定他是怕你跑掉啦是不是 說再犯罪啦 怕你重複犯罪這個主要不是仿討 而是說他重複犯罪怕連續殺人 連續縱火 有必要嘛所以因為他前面有一個犯刑了所以足以讓我們支撐 為了預防他下一個連續犯刑我們把他終止 把他預防 是這樣嘛"},{"start":3982.288,"end":4005.803,"text":"好 那再看下一個其實我們台灣是熱帶氣候不過這兩天好冷如果在溫帶國家如果沒有暖氣的供應那是會要命的假如說有一個住戶客戶他跟他的天然氣瓦斯公司有爭議有欠繳的費用公司要給他斷氣但是他說這個今天太陽下山會冷死所以他說這個繳費的爭議先不能夠有斷氣你覺得"},{"start":4010.049,"end":4039.324,"text":"在民事上有沒有類似的一個措施可以來防止這個情況或判理這個情況民事上的損害預防這個有沒有類似的類似的規定這個我也是要講這個沒關係就你的理解因為我們只是說生活上假如說我們很冷結果跟公司有繳費的爭議他要給我斷氣我呢會怕凍死所以我說這個不能先給我讓我去討論說到底我有沒有欠他錢不能馬上斷"},{"start":4041.778,"end":4068.095,"text":"對 所以我想委員可能是要指出秘書法246條在外籍不是是 OK 好 所以你們的主張就是類似我看到這樣的見解這是在司法院跟法務部的見解 來往下看來 請教副秘書長其實今天呢 我的個人的見解是這樣法律三讀後已無改變可能啊所以應有預防性權利的救濟適用好 那我們現在不談法律系的大三的課程我們來看一看最近的歷史 請看"},{"start":4069.885,"end":4096.083,"text":"這個憲法法庭的職權是包括這六項違憲審查政黨的違憲解散統一的解釋法律命令還有機關爭議總統副總統談判地方制的保障是不是掌理這些事項是的那這些事項是不是很核心的就是保障人民的基本權利是的同時要維持一個憲法機關的權利分立的原則包括政府中央跟地方是不是是是很好所以憲法法庭不要以為只有政黨在關係政黨的利益"},{"start":4096.363,"end":4115.634,"text":"他關係人民甚居我們看一下憲法訴訟法到憲判一一我之前在有沒有詢問過你自遺產稅侵害財產權違憲一個女童因為她父親過世了她的後母跟她的其他的子女拋棄繼承之後結果她只繼承了150萬卻要繳570萬的遺產稅那麼 胡平長你對於憲法法庭這個判決部分違憲您覺得對人民的權利有沒有得到保障"},{"start":4123.956,"end":4139.063,"text":"有 有重大的保障那如果說今天這個案子還在審理中雖然我們現在預知審理結果是這樣假設在審理當中現在憲法法庭不運作了是不是這個小女孩她就要去繳這570萬對她來講 5700萬的一個損害會發生是不是 對 廳長可以回答"},{"start":4150.922,"end":4160.848,"text":"跟委員說明如果說因為是確定裁判的審查那如果沒有停止執行的話就會發生嗎所以憲法法庭對人民是非常至關重要的我們再往下看所以本次憲法訴訟法將可能會讓憲法法庭的全部職權受到影響包括什麼我們的憲法訴訟法第30條第234項它同時去含設了43條的暫時處分的裁定75條的宣告彈劾的成立以及第80條的政堂解散"},{"start":4180.72,"end":4205.536,"text":"那是不是這樣子所有的憲法法庭涉及到這六種功能如果目前有八人未達十人門檻這些案件是不是都會受到影響?副委員長你的看法呢?要注意喔,有可能有一天你會當大法官喔會不會受到影響?目前的狀況會不會受到影響?就是這六個是不是都會受到影響?可以請廳長說,你也有機會當大法官"},{"start":4206.994,"end":4229.268,"text":"跟委員說明就是根據我們統計到昨天最新的數據我們目前的未結案有440件你已經跳題了我看下一題來是不是這樣就是目前為止未結案有434件這個是到去年年底那目前最新的數字未結案是440件440件又多了6件這當中人民申請的比例高達95%其中146件已經受理了"},{"start":4233.07,"end":4254.367,"text":"受理就是要排案去審理對不對如果憲法法庭停擺 這些人會不會受到影響如果憲法法庭沒有運作當然好 那我們來看一下還有誰受到影響呢 最近的案例高雄案件已經申請釋憲了 將庭審到憲判出爐是不是這樣子 副秘書長您覺得是不是所了解這個案對 他有裁定停止是 所以來 黃次長"},{"start":4256.46,"end":4275.882,"text":"這個案子涉貪案嘛 目前呢 議檢已經提起起訴了那麼目前高昂案如果停止審理 他是不是持續一個無罪狀態因為他還沒有判決確定 對嘛那如果無罪狀態 他要參選2026 他目前為止就沒有新的案件事件發生的話他是以目前的狀態他可以繼續參選的 是不是這樣"},{"start":4278.256,"end":4296.757,"text":"這個可能要由內政部到時候到中選會那時候來做這個審查是但是以目前如果沒有其他案件以他現況只有這個案件的話這個案件如果是無罪那沒有其他案件的話那他是可以繼續參選的這個案件只能說還沒判決權對還沒判決權好OK好謝謝另外還有一個案件來那個市長"},{"start":4298.018,"end":4322.336,"text":"政黨違憲解散難以執行 目前我們看到新聞報導危害國家安全的反滲透法的 總統副總統選罷法的 兩岸條例的 八岸十一人都是統促黨目前內政部說要查處 申請解散目前有沒有收到內政部的申請來請聽 聽長有沒有收到目前沒有收到內政部的申請那如果收到了以後可不可以審理 如果目前的狀態下"},{"start":4323.899,"end":4335.458,"text":"呃 能不能審理這次審判事務所以我們就方便說好 那我很清楚好 我們來看一下所以說如果憲法法庭癱瘓停擺誰受益誰受害很清楚啊政黨受益啊"},{"start":4337.413,"end":4363.002,"text":"統促黨可以免於解散啊 還不急著解散啊社攤的市長 民眾黨 社攤的市長 停審啊依照現在狀況可以繼續參選啊但是如果以那個憲判11號以判的萬一他那時候還沒判出來他就要無辜的背負5700萬的遺產稅 擬制稅制還有喔 112 去年 前年啦 現在是前年的審第十案 待審"},{"start":4364.082,"end":4391.672,"text":"是一個堂叔從小他的親戚的孩子他把他收養因為不符合出養的規定那麼呢所以他就要等著收養如果這個案子沒有判下來黃市長您覺得這樣的一個人民的權益是不是會受到損害會有相當大的影響會有相當大的影響好來我們講一下看繼續那我請教副秘書長司法院本身性質職權如果受到影響可不可以請求釋憲"},{"start":4393.67,"end":4421.943,"text":"憲法訴訟法第47條第一項有沒有符合如果說最高機關司法院嘛因本身所適用的法規定有任何觸犯憲法者可以申請憲法法庭做違憲這判決嘛可不可以這在法條上是符合的那你們有沒有做過過去有沒有做過 廳長跟我們報告根據我們目前掌握的資料在過往就職時期有沒有司法院曾經有申請過兩件曾經有過但這兩件最後都不受理"},{"start":4422.914,"end":4450.845,"text":"好 那我們來看一下 如果司法院有申請過 不管有沒有受理啦那有沒有其他機關提出來的立法院可不可以提出 譬如說四字六一 九零一當年也是涉及到司法院大法官他的專業法官加級司法院沒有提啊 誰提民進黨黨團提啊 因為刪了總預算這就在去年到今年 今年的總預算案 副秘書長"},{"start":4452.128,"end":4468.326,"text":"你們目前簡列的跟凍結的數額多少你知道嗎目前還沒有加總沒有加總你要小心好所以說立法院的部分委員只要符合四分之以上就可以提出"},{"start":4469.45,"end":4498.87,"text":"對於這些有違憲之餘的我們會提出申請釋憲是不是這樣可以嗎好那我們來往下一看那什麼時間可以救濟目前我們看到的限訴法是在復議未通過現在在這個階段藍色的階段尚未生效總統公佈後生效施行那以生效就無法依我依憲新法就無法裁判那目前是否已經沒有其他憲政方式可以改變結果有沒有"},{"start":4499.731,"end":4519.687,"text":"這個結果目前,不通過了,有沒有其他改變的可能?這個法案,限訴法,您覺得有沒有可能?目前的階段有沒有可能改變?來,廳長還是要廳長答?兩位都有當大法官的機會的人,請小心答,來有沒有可能改變?"},{"start":4521.897,"end":4545.969,"text":"因為這個即將是可能會成為一個我們系訴訟的案件是 所以你們不便表示意見很好 好 往下看那麼訴訟的核心功能即使有權力有效的權力救濟暫時處分我們看到了起訴後再暫時處分到判決確定前預防訴訟為了避免遭到不可回復的損害紅十字法你們舉的例子在起訴的時候你就要進行防止權力損害"},{"start":4546.889,"end":4568.297,"text":"所以如果承認事後不可救濟是不是就應該允許提出暫時處分或預防訴訟這是你們今天提出來的一些看法供我們本委員參考是不是這樣子副秘書長我所覺得我所做的這個事情權利救濟是不是就今天討論核心要有及時有效的權利救濟嘛您的看法呢這是我整理的啦"},{"start":4569.366,"end":4583.679,"text":"你們覺得是不是大概是這個意思就你們提的這兩個案子一個是國家考試你們舉的例子嘛是是嘛是這個例子嘛一個是兩個例子嘛一個是考試嘛是報考對不對一個呢是紅十字嘛OK好往下看"},{"start":4584.48,"end":4611.297,"text":"所以結論我也不要耽誤時間因為主席站出來雖然他沒講話雖然他之前說要給我兩個小時但是我相信他的身體比較誠實他既然起來了我就把結論說了所以憲法法庭停擺是不是政黨受益人民受害這是我今天要來這邊表達的當然我們尊重大家各自的看法第二 立法委員只要符合憲法法規定就可以就司法院權力提示線是有權力的"},{"start":4613.569,"end":4638.822,"text":"4-601那你們自己講的有不成案的不受理的也有兩件申請釋憲暫時處分之時機是不是最後一個你可以說是不是應該由憲法法庭來認定對這是憲法法庭的那個權限很好謝謝今天我的質詢就到這裡謝謝跟詢問跟說明謝謝你還可以多講一下沒有啊你的身體很沉沒問題你的高見我還想繼續聽啊看有沒有想要講他只遇15分鐘"},{"start":4642.11,"end":4664.559,"text":"好那謝謝中召委那下一位我們請陳俊宇委員發言好謝謝主席那有請我們副秘書長跟黃次長副秘書長次長"},{"start":4667.952,"end":4683.462,"text":"早安今天我們所要討論的專題我想也是作為憲法憲訴法修法之後延伸的討論自從憲訴法提出之後到委員會審議還有院會的表決"},{"start":4686.224,"end":4702.936,"text":"社會諸多的關注而行政院作為一個能夠提出復議的憲政機關在本月初正式復議之後卻未能獲得邀請前來立法院做說明最終這個復議案也沒有通過"},{"start":4703.696,"end":4723.589,"text":"也是在我們意料之中那也看到上週在司法節學術研討會上我們這個謝明揚代理院長在致詞的時候也指出目前司法面臨許多挑戰包括限訴法的這個修法對憲法法庭運作會造成的相關問題"},{"start":4724.85,"end":4749.504,"text":"由於在去年的這個12月三讀通過的這個版本是在表決前所提出的再修正動議那跟我們10月份委員會所審查的這個版本有所不同也沒有徵詢過司法院的意見我想先就叫我們複密通過的這個新法對於憲法法庭造成的這種實務運作上會有什麼樣的困境"},{"start":4751.772,"end":4766.858,"text":"好 謝謝委員就是那個伊犁法院三讀通過的限訴法30條修正的這個條文呢那個憲法訴訟的案件類型就是除了87條的統一解釋法令還維持原來的平決門檻"},{"start":4768.138,"end":4785.201,"text":"也就是說大法官現有的那個總額過半數參與評議那參與評議的大法官過半數同意之外呢像是其他的案件類型裁判及法規範的那個憲法審查還有地方自治保障總統及副總統彈劾政黨違憲解散還有43條的那個暫時處分呢這一些它的那個門檻大法官參與評議的人數呢不可以低於10人"},{"start":4796.524,"end":4799.913,"text":"同意違憲裁判人數不可以低於9人"},{"start":4801.551,"end":4826.567,"text":"那有關那個機關爭議的案件呢大法官參與評議的人數是不可以低於10人的所以呢目前就是我們現狀情況在任的大法官目前是8個人所以說有關案件就是有幾個類型一個是案件是否受理還有一個統一解釋法令等案件呢因為這一些就是"},{"start":4827.407,"end":4853.901,"text":"相關規定沒有修正所以目前都還是依現行的方式在處理至於說其他的這些案件類型它在新法公佈生效之後實務運作這個部分是屬於憲法法庭審判的事項我們司法行政也是維護大法官的獨立審判這個部分我們就不表示意見"},{"start":4855.202,"end":4883.627,"text":"好 那我們規定這個參與評議和做成違憲的這個大法官人數然後剛剛複密有講了就算人數這個我們現在看人數是不夠就算民眾的陳情案子我們也沒辦法正常的去做這個審理以目前來看就是剛才講到那個上訴那個案件如果說是受理之後的裁判跟法規範那個憲法審查可是目前嗎還是說新法"},{"start":4884.71,"end":4909.839,"text":"新法制定之後對這個部分還是沒辦法那對於我們這個憲法法庭的這個運作會造成實質的這個自愛難行的困境甚至會完全癱瘓這個我想我們應該現在目前應該有感覺到了那不利於我們權力的這個保障那不過也有人持反對的這個立場認為說只要盡快的補滿大法官"},{"start":4910.78,"end":4925.796,"text":"這個缺口就能夠解決那在這個設下如此高的這個門檻的情況之下是否在運作上仍有可能會導致我們相關的這個審議的效率會降低的情形這個部分我是不是能夠讓那個書記廳長回答"},{"start":4929.382,"end":4956.654,"text":"根文報告就是如果以新法將來這個制度來看的話那除了剛剛副秘書長說明的之外那因為有關於受理與否以及統一解釋法律命令這個部分的規定沒有修改那這個部分當然就這個部分我們可以持續的來運作那其實目前我們八位大法官也是分三個審查庭那分授原本應該有15個大法官所分授的一個全部的新案跟未結案來持續處理"},{"start":4957.714,"end":4967.342,"text":"那至於說其他類型的案件那因為新法上路之後他能不能運作如何運作那就是審判事項我們就不方便說明好"},{"start":4968.223,"end":4990.329,"text":"那由於我們這個立法院在週一的傍晚已經將復議案的結果支付我們總統還有韓副行政院了那根據憲法這個規定最晚必須在1月23日完成公佈尋求的這個救濟手段還尚待評估那我想請教我們副議員跟黃志就針對"},{"start":4991.249,"end":5007.178,"text":"你們的這個專案專業的判斷提出預防性的這個權力救濟是不是現階段最可行的一個途徑我想這個部分不是司法本院所能夠回答的謝謝委員"},{"start":5009.78,"end":5032.83,"text":"我想因為這個目前我們法務部並沒有接到行政院任何關於這個相關議題的研議的交辦所以我們也不方便表示意見那正如剛才司法院副委員所說的委員所提的問題事實上未來涉及審判的核心事項我們為尊重這個審判獨立我們也不便表示意見 謝謝"},{"start":5035.285,"end":5060.425,"text":"既然憲法法庭的設置是為了維護人民的權利和憲政的秩序那就不能夠停擺最嚴重會被影響的會是人民和機關尋求救濟或是解決憲法爭議的權利不論是我們司法院、行政院還是立法院都必須去維護我們憲法法庭的實質運作我相信這是民眾所期待的"},{"start":5061.185,"end":5077.382,"text":"另外一個議題我想請教兩位,就是近年來國安洩密、共諜事件頻繁包括近期討論的富康聯盟黨涉嫌收受中共的金援作為解放軍的內應"},{"start":5078.863,"end":5098.251,"text":"那在去年以違反國安法被台中高分檢起訴那現在由這個台中高分院審理當中我們也看到國安局提出共諜案滲透手法的這個分析從2024年案件來分析主要是勾結黑幫來發展武裝內應開設地下錢莊來"},{"start":5101.832,"end":5129.211,"text":"引誘投共 滲透我們在地的宮廟還有成立統戰組織動員來介入選舉以及透過網路的平台來佈建組織等等的這些方式那中共的滲透目標 管道 守法還有墓地可以說是五花八門 無孔不入我們法務部調查局和我們的檢察署如何來因應"},{"start":5130.729,"end":5132.233,"text":"這個偵辦的量能是否充足"},{"start":5133.752,"end":5160.36,"text":"跟我們報告國安案件事實上當然我們非常的重視也列為全國檢察機關偵辦案件的重點所以目前我們動員偵查能量會全力投入相關案件的偵訪那麼由最高檢察署檢察中長來統合所有案件的情資並由告點檢察署來督導執行會結合偵查保防跟情報系統來綜合研判之後投入偵辦"},{"start":5161.66,"end":5169.148,"text":"所以在這兩年來我們其實也辦了很多指標性的案件也會持續用最高的規格來辦理相關的業務"},{"start":5173.868,"end":5192.884,"text":"好 那由於我們這個國安的這個案件 具有機敏性和高度的專業性那會需要和國防還有國安單位來配合那針對重要的這些議題共同來討論 也需要提出對策來研議那來提升我們辦案的專業"},{"start":5193.704,"end":5206.695,"text":"國安局的報告有提及為了因應中共多元的這種滲透手法包括情報機關還有我們軍中的保防單位以及法務部的檢調部門已經都建立起協作的機制"},{"start":5209.938,"end":5225.448,"text":"就這一次這樣子我想請教次長你所了解的法務部是如何來協作所謂的國安共同威脅的圖像這個協作的這個機制未來應該要如何來精進以提高我們國安案件的這個辦案的成效"},{"start":5225.768,"end":5241.619,"text":"是跟委員報告陳柱剛所說我們在最高檢察署跟台高檢署都有成立相關單位我們在各檢察機關也設國安的專組尤其對於國安法剛委員所提到這種發展組織的案件它是由高檢署來偵辦"},{"start":5243.48,"end":5261.516,"text":"台高檢署跟分署進來 辦案的績效也一直在提升事務外見發生的時候 剛剛委員所提到的跟相關的軍事單位的聯繫平台是由最高檢察署來統合所以我們會結合軍事的情緒來源充分跟軍事機關橫向溝通 徵詢意見來強化我們的偵辦效能"},{"start":5265.011,"end":5287.273,"text":"好這我們期待,那在上週這個陸委會的副主委提出呼籲要把這個國安的案件當作特殊的案件來處理那並提出應該設立專門的這種國安法庭但是在我們司法院後來的這個澄清資訊裡面看到我們112年當時配合國安法第19條的施行"},{"start":5289.315,"end":5318.116,"text":"司法院已經修正相關的辦法要求各地院還有高院及分院對國安法這個案件成立專案法庭或專股辦理因此想先就叫我們複密這個針對國安軍事專業的這個案件所含括的這個案件類型我們各地院高院和分院是否都已經成立這個國安專庭或是專股來承辦案件"},{"start":5318.697,"end":5344.017,"text":"好謝謝委員垂詢是的在那個112年12月就是本院因為那個國安法那個修正之後呢就是修正了我們的那個司法事務分配規範法那就目前所有的普通法院全部的各個法院全部都已經成立了那個專庭或者是專股來辦理已經都成立了對全部的法院"},{"start":5344.991,"end":5353.397,"text":"好 那我想再就教一下是否我們這個政府院長懸缺的導致設置進度停滯 跟這個有沒有關係"},{"start":5357.205,"end":5373.084,"text":"是沒有那個設置停滯的那個問題就是全部的法院每一個法院都已經有那個專庭了那他們那個專庭那個法官呢他們也都要那個接受那個相當的那個專業訓練就是也有規定一年最少要12個小時的專業訓練以上"},{"start":5376.647,"end":5403.121,"text":"好 那我們這個國安的這個案件是很大的一個題目那尤其是在當前中共滲透變本加厲那更值得關注同時也是在院紀之間跨部會共同要來努力防堵的一個破口那以確保我們國家的安全礙於這個詢答時間有限那後續如果還有機會的話再跟我們相關部會做討論謝謝複密還有我們的次長謝謝委員"},{"start":5405.822,"end":5425.28,"text":"好 謝謝 那下一位我們請羅志強委員主席我先程序發言 請說剛剛鍾嘉斌委員在發言的時候我幫他算了一下 預時五分鐘左右啦那基本上我們也就是靜靜的聽他講我也沒在他發言的時候干擾他"},{"start":5426.499,"end":5454.908,"text":"我這邊要說一件事 剛剛蔡英文底下黃國昌在質詢的時候底下在那邊叫囂如果說今天民進黨的委員你們都非常準時你們都不預時你們過去齁 時間到了你們就下來羅志強沒有意見是嗎每次人到柯建民的時候大家沒見到嗎預時從10分鐘20分鐘30分鐘40分鐘起跳民進黨的人有講一句話嗎"},{"start":5457.116,"end":5486.233,"text":"所以我剛剛要特別強調的是什麼就是主席召委在主持的時候那他自然會去做時間的控制但每個召委的做法不一樣像中線召委他就很尊重大家的發言時間基本上讓大家自己來去控制自己發言時間這個標準不是只對黃國昌適用也不是只對羅志強適用也對鍾嘉斌適用啊"},{"start":5487.622,"end":5503.04,"text":"那為什麼今天別人在發言的時候在底下用叫囂的方式去干擾別人呢所以在這邊這個程序不容忍還是要說明一下剛剛朱家斌在那邊罵我說我在護航黃國昌 抱歉喔我護航的是公平正義 不要雙標"},{"start":5504.588,"end":5528.887,"text":"如果今天民進黨做得到不獄死那今天羅志強沒有話說但是最愛獄死的就是民進黨那我也不懂為什麼鍾嘉賓老是要把臉受傷讓大家打呢就像昨天安排那個什麼奇怪的報告前天安排什麼奇怪的報告講現行犯自己就是現行犯還要弄一個什麼妨害司法公正現行犯的報告真的不需要這樣子"},{"start":5531.124,"end":5559.964,"text":"好 謝謝羅委員那因為我主持會議喔到現在已經兩個會期了嘛那我主持的習慣大家應該看得很清楚就是基本上我會尊重發言委員的發言那當然很多委員其實他都預時很久甚至請他下來請不下來幫他那個幫他消音他也還是繼續吼所以我想說我還是一樣就是基本尊重每一位委員的發言那我們也希望說發言委員在發言的時候"},{"start":5560.444,"end":5586.531,"text":"那非發言委員就不要干擾發言委員的發言那如果有任何程序上面的問題都可以在發言結束之後隨時提出來由主席這邊來做決定或是由主席這邊來回答這個是沒有問題的好那接下來我們就請羅志強委員發言請王副秘書長然後我們王副秘對兩位廳長還有我們黃次長次長"},{"start":5594.175,"end":5605.084,"text":"我想先請教我們副秘書長卓院長1月9號說根據司法院的統計憲法訴訟法當中人民申請的案件超過99%對不對"},{"start":5608.447,"end":5620.9,"text":"那我向司法院索取的資料顯示 自憲法法庭111年1月1日上路到113年底 申請案件一共是7254件其中7127件是人民申請 大概是98.25"},{"start":5628.328,"end":5645.882,"text":"行政院舉這個數字 我覺得他想要講的東西很清楚啦他說憲法法庭停擺對人民影響很大七千件的案子看起來很多但我想請教一下司法院人民向憲法法庭申請的終結案件裡面受理的比例大概是多少 這七千件我告訴你啦 好不好這也是你們給我的數字"},{"start":5654.651,"end":5676.524,"text":"總共有6716件終結其中只有211件有受理判決36件實體裁定1件並案174件換句話說受理率就是3.14%直接被裁定的不受理的高達6307件人民申請案佔98%但人民申請案有94%是不受理的"},{"start":5681.343,"end":5697.839,"text":"那我再想請教 機關申請案終結實踐裡面有幾件受理您不知道我再告訴你 數字錯誤再更正我 也是你們提供的八件 受理率高達八成我要跟大家講"},{"start":5699.11,"end":5712.7,"text":"我們民進黨卓榮泰喜歡拿人民的申請件數99%來說憲法法庭是人民的守護神但從數據來看他打槍94%的人民不受理而對於機關申請就80%就是受理"},{"start":5716.603,"end":5743.913,"text":"這樣差距我覺得99%的人民有沒有辦法接受為什麼憲法法庭這個時候在他們來講好像非常的急迫需要做所謂的預防性的救濟然後要開一個巧門來去針對立法院通過的法律想要來搞一個比暫時處分更偉大的暫時處分這我們後面再講就是拿人民當藉口那接下來我再想請教一下我們副秘書長"},{"start":5746.155,"end":5755.23,"text":"請問司法院啊 憲法法庭如果說 停擺兩個月會影響到多少件申請案我請那個廳長回答好嗎 可以請"},{"start":5759.335,"end":5765.658,"text":"跟我們說明 因為我們審查庭是如常運作所以有關於不受理的案子我們可以繼續進行如常運作 我先跟你講 你們有411件還未結的"},{"start":5779.625,"end":5805.541,"text":"然後呢 受理率3.14%你剛剛講的還可以繼續受理啦總共大概就是13件左右那一般來說這按照過去你們的受理率來看的話有高達386件就是被裁定不受理時間推估的話憲法法庭上路受理的是278件平均每月7.72件而且大部分是病案 有174件是病案所以真正做出判決是36件"},{"start":5808.222,"end":5829.81,"text":"我這樣數字沒錯吧 判決是51件沒關係 每個月判決大概是一點多案那我要跟你講 你知道按照我們限訴法的新制當大法官的提名沒有被通過的時候 總統要在多少期間內補足提名按照這次的三讀修正條文是兩個月"},{"start":5832.65,"end":5857.43,"text":"兩個月能夠影響的案件大概三到四案 三到五案啦我剛剛講以受理的情況來講 受理率算進去但這個部分可能還要考慮國會同意的時程沒關係啊 國會同意時程每一個月再加兩個案子嘛 再加兩個案子這是所謂講的影響 好 那接下來我要告訴你我想請教你 你所謂的預防性的救濟 要預防什麼"},{"start":5861.807,"end":5881.351,"text":"要預防什麼針對我們今天憲法訴訟法通過今天要去採取所謂預防性權力救濟比照預防性權力救濟是要預防什麼預防那個權力在將來可能受到侵害什麼樣的權力受到侵害啊什麼樣的權力受到侵害 答不出來啊"},{"start":5887.659,"end":5916.599,"text":"我們今天執政黨今天這個所謂的他愛怎麼樣去決定我們憲政就怎麼決定憲政這個權利受侵害嗎是什麼權利受侵害包委員剛才講的是那個一般的就是因為好啦那我問你下一個問題好了那急迫什麼請問急迫什麼我直接幫你講啦民進黨的邏輯就是說憲法法庭會被癱瘓啦要預防憲法法庭被癱瘓啦這政治問題我不為難你不回答啦"},{"start":5917.742,"end":5944.405,"text":"那我想請問急迫什麼在急迫什麼急迫憲法法庭會被癱瘓嘛對不對我看不到別的理由啊只有這個理由啊說憲法法庭會被癱瘓所以要預防被癱瘓啊我還先不講到底說能不能準用行政訴訟法啦我先不講這一塊我只講這個部分他預防所謂憲法法庭被癱瘓那我就要問急迫性在哪裡"},{"start":5946.373,"end":5970.32,"text":"剛剛聽長已經回答了先訴法新制總統幾個月內要提出提名單幾個月兩個月兩個月啊那急迫是什麼在下一口就要請教您喔真的那麼急迫的話那我想請教今天劉靜儀大法官的被提名人你總知道是被誰否決的吧被誰否決的"},{"start":5975.151,"end":5997.528,"text":"被民進黨否決的啊被民進黨否決的啊所以照民進黨那種奇怪的邏輯為了大法官今天不要被癱瘓真的該究責是賴清德啊不是嗎現在大法官現在有剩下多少位大法官在任幾位"},{"start":5998.274,"end":6021.065,"text":"目前是八位 按照新制憲法訴訟法幾位就能開庭審理法案了十位 差幾位 兩位啊你賴清德要嘛就怪賴清德你提名一個連民進黨都沒辦法接受的劉靜儀還是因為要怪就怪民進黨劉靜儀是事任的結果民進黨因為他罵民進黨就把他否決掉"},{"start":6025.033,"end":6042.149,"text":"郵寄一進去 八個就變九個 只剩一個囉 只剩一個囉兩個月提一個我就舉個例子啊 兩個月內如果你提的是宗嘉賓 抱歉我也沒辦法接受 我一定投反對票啊但是如果提你王梅依搞不好我考慮啊 不是嗎"},{"start":6043.826,"end":6063.514,"text":"我要的不是什麼了不起我要的是中立啦只要你做到中立你不要偏頗你有法學素養你的積極資格符合今天大法官提名資格你就有可能通過啊可是今天你要搞到說憲法法庭會被癱瘓你要跟我講有急迫性問題罪魁禍首是誰罪魁禍首是誰你一定答不出來來我們請我們次長來打是國會嗎"},{"start":6075.367,"end":6090.311,"text":"還是民進黨 民進黨為什麼要把那個劉靜儀推翻掉你告訴我 你也當過民進黨的黨員啊你代表民進黨參選過立法委員啊你也當過立法委員啊你現在跟我講為什麼民進黨要推翻劉靜儀的大法官的任命是在癱瘓大法官嗎這麼急迫欸 兩個月不能等欸你們竟然還把劉靜儀弄掉你民進黨可惡嘛市長我這樣講對不對啊"},{"start":6101.567,"end":6129.687,"text":"我想這個投票的時候各黨團都有決議啊對啊 非常好 就你民進黨有投進去啊所以找藉口 找到什麼藉口連什麼預防性救濟都拿出來當藉口你這要預防是預防今天民進黨濫權戴興德獨裁啊 這才該預防的啊大法官要不要去預防一下啊你真的講急迫 那你就把戴興德抓出來嘛"},{"start":6130.796,"end":6159.83,"text":"我們慶德總統這麼急迫欸那你好好提名一個人你不要提名到連你民進黨都不能接受的人那今天大法官就過啦 十個人就滿啦就能夠開會啦不是嗎賴慶德今天好好提名好好提名再兩個他要提名七個 只要兩個再兩個兩個月內大法官的人數就滿了"},{"start":6161.53,"end":6182.093,"text":"不是嗎我再請教副秘書長我想請教您我實在是不懂今天這個所謂的到底預防誰 擊破誰是不是預防今天民進黨濫權還是今天擊破賴清德不提四任的大法官人選你等個兩個月 三個月等不及沒辦法等"},{"start":6183.2,"end":6207.52,"text":"我覺得今天你們大法官如果接受這個所謂預防性的救濟的申請你是瞧不起賴清德你是已經知道賴清德不會提出讓人民接受讓多數民意接受的大法官人選嘛你根本瞧不起所以你才會說今天如果今天我不把這個新的憲法訴訟法推翻的話大法官就會被癱瘓癱瘓不會被癱瘓的怎麼會被癱瘓"},{"start":6212.503,"end":6240.905,"text":"大法官怎麼會被攤換賴清德再提兩個人 民進黨不要打臉賴清德就結束啦大法官就可以繼續審案啦我就問秘書長嘛如果今天賴清德再提七個人有兩個被同意了 請問大法官能不能開會了其實大法官現在是可以開會 當然只是不能做緊急處分跟所謂不能做違憲的審查而已嘛 對不對不能做違憲判決而已 以新法來說嘛 對不對"},{"start":6243.032,"end":6262.028,"text":"那我就問嘛 只要今天兩個月內賴清德提了兩個 只要兩個 七個提兩個是在野黨一起商量 覺得中立不是黨議大法官通過了 請問十個人是不是就滿了賴清德符合最低的十個人答對了嘛 就可以開會了嘛沒錯吧 你看我們副部長我跟妳講副部長這種態度就是正確的賴清德趕快提名你啦 好不好"},{"start":6270.433,"end":6293.96,"text":"真的啊 你不要提名中下兵 提名你機率大一點那最後我要講什麼 我要講就是今天就像說秘書長 你們司法院曾經考察過傑克的憲法法庭嘛 對不對他們的那個大法官人數多少 幾個15個嘛 他們最低出席人數幾個"},{"start":6296.003,"end":6312.337,"text":"在一些特定案件,對,十個嘛然後那個門檻,違憲審查的門檻幾個?九個嘛跟我們現在憲法訴訟法一模一樣你們所考察捷克法院你們的結論是借進捷克憲法法庭的對不對,沒錯吧你們報告有這樣寫的喔,沒錯吧"},{"start":6319.483,"end":6345.831,"text":"你上次有來這邊練習耶你的報告有這樣寫你不會不記得吧這記性這樣子不對喔沒錯吧正確用語我沒有辦法記得藉盡捷克憲法法庭嘛這個我們那天質詢整天的重點你跟我講現在精確用語你用不出來你把報告調出來那我就要問下一個問題啊那天鍾嘉賓死不肯讓你回答的問題我今天直接問你"},{"start":6347.472,"end":6371.684,"text":"你講那個捷克有配套嘛對不對是你說兩個月內必須行使同意權嘛對不對行使同意權是今天要投票同意跟不同意嘛對不對兩個月內嘛是這是他們國會的職權對啊但是沒有規定說今天兩個月要投票同意不同意是兩個月內我規定非投同意不可嘛對不對不是吧"},{"start":6373.407,"end":6400.268,"text":"同意權行使是可投同意可投不同意國會的權利嘛 對不對謝謝你啊那我就要問一件事情如果今天捷克的總統提阿狗阿貓對不對阿槍阿什麼就是一些奇奇怪怪的人提大法官進來然後捷克的國會說不行欸你這樣子提我們真的沒辦法接受欸刷掉結果因為刷掉捷克的憲法法庭剩下八個人"},{"start":6401.602,"end":6419.015,"text":"這叫癱瘓憲法法庭嗎你認為這個癱瘓責任是算給捷克總統還是算給國會今天如果捷克總統提一個阿狗阿貓就是黨議大法官結果國會說不行 我們代表民意不能接受啊憲法法庭因為不滿十個人 照你剛剛講也不能開會嘛 對不對那請問癱瘓責任是國會還是今天總統在捷克來講我告訴你是總統"},{"start":6430.498,"end":6445.307,"text":"是總統兩個人你都沒有辦法得到你提兩個公正的人都做不到同樣的如果捷克總統補題的人捷克的法院再同意了兩個他的法庭就能夠開會有癱瘓問題嗎沒有癱瘓問題今天我就問副秘書長我們這憲政設計大法官是誰提名有總統提名誰同意"},{"start":6459.144,"end":6485.541,"text":"國會立法委員那為什麼要立法委員同意這是那個權利分立答對了嘛 權利分立嘛我們代表民意嘛我們是人民一票一票選出來的嘛所以我非常反對過去曾有大法官說大法官不用理民意你認為大法官不用理民意嗎不需要嗎大法官是超脫於民意之上行走在人世間的神嗎 是嗎"},{"start":6486.986,"end":6511.713,"text":"如果是這樣這個憲法這個法律這個憲法條例直接廢掉大法官不需要立法院同意要需要立法院同意就是希望說今天大法官不能夠不死人間煙火那同樣回到還是最根本的問題啊那今天賴清德如果民進黨立法院是你是多數行政立法多數一致的時候當然你愛提誰就提誰我們也沒辦法這人民決定的"},{"start":6512.591,"end":6541.193,"text":"可是當立法的多數跟行政的多數行政的總統是不一樣的時候他才會今天有今天我們憲政這個設計嘛所以回頭還是要強調一件事情少拿憲法法庭攤換這件事如果憲法法庭真的攤換是因為賴清德你就堅持要用黨議大法官你就堅持不肯提兩個今天跟立法院多數民意商量的大法官你再兩個月提出來"},{"start":6542.967,"end":6564.701,"text":"就沒有今天你們民進黨說什麼癱瘓的問題那我這邊也要鄭重的拜託跟勸告我們大法官沒有急迫性哪有急迫性預防性的權益救濟申請對不對你要有一個預防的標的那預防誰預防爛性的爛權才對啊第二個是要有急迫性急迫是什麼"},{"start":6565.936,"end":6594.213,"text":"如果你認為今天這個書法通過之後大法官永遠不能開會你是對賴清德最大的玷污你就認為賴清德就是一個不顧名義強悍然後霸道的總統他一定不會提出一個讓人民滿意讓今天多數同意的兩個大法官人選你憑什麼大法官做這樣的預判啊預判賴清德的預判嗎可以這樣嗎"},{"start":6596.437,"end":6610.824,"text":"所以真的民進黨搞出這種權力預防性 權力救濟就是憲政的笑話一場 謝謝謝謝 那在接下來麻煩吳志強委員代理主席有請吳宗憲委員"},{"start":6631.854,"end":6634.518,"text":"謝謝 我們麻煩王副秘以及楊廳長"},{"start":6645.158,"end":6665.807,"text":"我先請教兩位就延續剛剛黃國昌委員的問題啦因為如果跟黃國昌委員的問題重複的那我就不會再問那我先請教一下兩位那到底到現在為止有沒有任何一個機關或是個人對於這一次"},{"start":6667.208,"end":6674.804,"text":"憲法訴訟法的部分有提起說要預防性的權力救濟是否有人有向司法院提了"},{"start":6676.772,"end":6697.906,"text":"跟委員說明那個如果說針對的是暫時處分因為根據司法院的報告我們把預防性的權利救濟跟暫時權利救濟是分開處理的那如果是以目前所謂預防性權利救濟假如是定位在準用行政訴訟法或民事訴訟法的將來給付支訴的話就我的了解目前是沒有"},{"start":6698.086,"end":6721.12,"text":"那你剛說的另外一個呢那如果是暫時處分的話剛剛我回答黃委員的部分就是說目前針對限訴法申請暫時處分的有是誰我今天早上來的時候得到的數據是人民有申請然後剛剛就在開會期間然後我們書記廳的同仁有傳訊給我我們今天有收到民進黨委員具狀申請法規範憲法審查以及暫時處分"},{"start":6722.921,"end":6740.934,"text":"好 那所以我們現在可以了解一下就是說確實民進黨委員以及有人民已經向司法院提起暫時處分就限訴法的部分 這個沒有問題了嘛 我們就確認下來好 那我想請問一下喔 那憲法訴訟法它的限訴法的主管機關到底是誰啊"},{"start":6743.65,"end":6759.802,"text":"請問法規主管局管理事司法院那應該不是行政院嘛我沒有講錯嘛不是行政院嘛但是行政院卻對這次憲法訴訟法非常的反彈啦所以我想說這個大家也都知道啦那當然也有政委提出一些"},{"start":6761.243,"end":6786.453,"text":"很特殊的法律見解 希望怎麼做 那我們都予以尊重因為我是尊重學者 我也尊重念法律法律就同一法律事件 本來就是有各式各樣的學說所以如果他希望採極端的少數說 我們也予以尊重因為有一些大學的老師 他的學說常常都是極端的少數說那我們都會尊重這些想法但是在實務上面可不可以適用 這又是另外一件事情"},{"start":6787.313,"end":6801.227,"text":"那我想請教一下 如果行政院不是限訴法的主管機關那行政院可不可以對限訴法來申請釋憲或是申請那個暫時處分或是預防性的權利救濟 請教一下"},{"start":6803.021,"end":6811.951,"text":"各位說明那因為在憲法上面復議權是專屬於行政院那所以這個部分我們尊重行政院他行使復議權不是復議權我剛不是說復議權我剛說對限訴法提起釋憲那請問一下可以嗎"},{"start":6818.337,"end":6838.033,"text":"這個部分就是國家最高機關對於法規範這個部分如果他在行使職權的時候他認為法律有違憲的部分然後按照我們限訴法的規定因為行政院統署國家最高機關那他當然可以提議申請至於申請以後受不受理那當然是由憲法法庭決定好 謝謝 就是"},{"start":6838.473,"end":6860.845,"text":"所以你剛剛也沒有回答到問題就是他可以申請但是受不受理是現在法庭決定這答案是這樣那好 我也講一下這一次呢其實很明確的嘛就是大法官總額就15人嘛那剛剛你們有回答到由總統提名然後立法院來這邊來審核嘛對不對然後如果不足人數的話總統要在兩個月內補題人數那因為我一直認為說這跟行政"},{"start":6865.367,"end":6890.283,"text":"院的職權實在也沒有什麼特別的關係啦那我反而覺得比較奇怪的就是說那現在怠惰的好像是總統啦因為總統要趕快提啊你被立法院否決的時候總統怎麼不趕快提那一直不提所以才會卡在那裡所以我到現在來看癱瘓憲法法庭的是總統啊因為憲訴法如果這次過了依照新修正的來看"},{"start":6891.184,"end":6918.887,"text":"那你目前人數不夠 所以總統就要趕快提嘛我們也希望趕快補足到最低10人的門檻那過了以後就可以開始審理嘛可是總統一直不提 然後又僵在那裡然後又要提一個什麼 又有人在政委提到說預防性的權力救濟我覺得那個權力的力是哪一個字 待會我再給你們看那我想請問一下如果是上位生效的法律啊那這個判決"},{"start":6921.125,"end":6943.91,"text":"判決違憲要讓他失效 那這個暫時處分凍結他的效率我實在不太懂 既然還沒有生效的法律 那要怎麼樣認定要他失效呢 要怎麼樣處理 我不懂耶他有訴訟上的利益嗎 他根本都還沒有生效的法律那我們要暫時處分讓他不生效 我不太懂耶 我想麻煩廳長能夠解釋一下"},{"start":6947.746,"end":6973.938,"text":"公務員說明這個部分當然因為實際上如果是針對尚未生效的法律來申請釋憲那這個部分因為是已經細數的案件所以我們在這邊不方便說不方便說 好那過往的例子很簡單嘛585號 599號都有提過暫時處分嘛但是那個都是對於生效的法律我想這 廳長我沒有講錯吧對不對 那如果是這樣子的話我真的不了解對於一個"},{"start":6975.154,"end":7003.811,"text":"如果對於生效的東西我們希望他不生效那當然我們提個暫時處分來維護我們的利益這個我可以理解但是對於一個尚未生效的法律我先預先這麼做說真的我真的沒有辦法理解大法官最後會怎麼認定如果他認定是准許的話我還真的很想拜讀一下這幾位大法官的大作當然啦 憲判八 憲判九已經讓我對於大法官的這麼偉大的論述我已經非常"},{"start":7005.03,"end":7030.318,"text":"非常崇拜的 這已經超過我能想像的啦那當然我們的論點在大法官的不同意見書裡面也有所以有時候人家說我們的見解跟最終宪判八或宪判九的邏輯不一樣我們就被罵法盲說我們是什麼 反正就說我們法盲但是我想說各位去看一下不同意見書裡面的強法其實跟我們一樣那些不同意見書的大法官也是法盲嘛所以我還是要講"},{"start":7033.076,"end":7053.833,"text":"這個還沒有生效的法律 你要他去定一個暫時處分然後不讓他效率停止適用嗎 還是怎麼樣我說真的 我還是想不出來這個邏輯要怎麼去推論我再提一個 其實我覺得這樣子的搞法 其實變成是"},{"start":7055.851,"end":7073.032,"text":"而大法官好像是完全取代了立法權的地位了嘛那所以如果這樣搞下去是不是只要民進黨不想通過的法律我全部都來搞這一套不管他生效與否已經生效了那當然他又要搞就像上次那個"},{"start":7074.167,"end":7095.647,"text":"像法庭一樣他就來先不讓你運作那還沒有生效的他照樣要搞我覺得國家的法律制度是這樣我以為我以前念法律兩位都是我的學長以前我認為法律是長治久安我國最早的法律定制到現在已經破百年了嘛譬如說刑法民國三年就定了"},{"start":7096.187,"end":7124.018,"text":"那本來我們以為法律就是一個強制久安的東西大家要去遵守但是到這幾年來全部被玩弄所以我們的制度很多都毀掉了文官制度也毀掉了然後一些法律訴訟上面的觀念也都毀掉了立法的制度也毀掉了五權分立的制度也毀掉了然後到現在他還甚至立法院投票投書人不甘願然後來打架後來也打書人"},{"start":7124.978,"end":7151.01,"text":"投票投輸人 打架打輸人然後到最後是我棄守立法院這一塊我退居到二線來跟你玩大法官四線所以我自己來看政府的這套玩法其實是在短短幾年內摧毀百年的國家法律制度然後從上一次我覺得NCC主委那次NCC組織法我覺得最誇張百年來我國法治立法權給行政權的一個"},{"start":7152.33,"end":7180.735,"text":"施行日由行政院以命令定之百年來的這個東西沒有人會去挑戰這個東西因為這個是立法權的一個恩惠給行政權讓他在運作上面方便給他一個日出條款由行政院來訂定竟然可以在NCC這個小小的官位就把這個制度給毀掉百年的制度民進黨為了一個小小NCC的官位可以把這個日出條款的制度完全摧毀"},{"start":7181.795,"end":7193.446,"text":"就是我覺得我念法律我真的想到這個有時候晚上真的是會傷心到睡不著我本來以為一個法律制度百年以前人訂立出來這些東西"},{"start":7194.673,"end":7220.495,"text":"我們後代子孫就是享受當年的這個智慧成果我們好好的運行下去就沒想到可以在歷次的個案裡面一個一個把它破壞掉而且都是為了單一一個個案眼前的那個利益NCC主委 NCC組織法那就是一個非常非常難看的一件事情可以把給行政權一個彈性讓他可以用命令定之實行之這個東西都把它摧毀我覺得這"},{"start":7221.656,"end":7233.773,"text":"我覺得是瘋狂了啦這種執政的玩法已經到瘋狂那這一次也是啦你今天法律還沒有通過然後你今天就要搞一個戰時權力救濟或者是要搞一個"},{"start":7235.236,"end":7263.09,"text":"一些奇怪怪莫名其妙的方式因為這些東西都會成為案例將來也會成為判例一件一件都影響到將來我們的子子孫孫在面對這套法律的時候的問題嘛所以我想兩位也是跟我一樣司法官出身的那我這邊不叫你們回答我不讓你們回答因為你們回答其實是要求你們回答這個事其實我覺得對兩位也不好但是我想我們"},{"start":7264.724,"end":7274.243,"text":"都曾經做過偵查審判的工作看到現在政府這種玩弄法律的方式其實是很傷 我覺得我們市長人應該是覺得傷心啦因為"},{"start":7274.946,"end":7298.076,"text":"我剛剛講的法律它的可貴在於我們需要它長治久安而不是總是以一個小小的個案為了政黨或派系或個人的利益每一次都把法律完爛掉每一套運作百年運作幾十年的法律我就把它完爛掉然後搞到現在立法院將來所有的法律通過都不會再給行政權"},{"start":7299.136,"end":7326.353,"text":"一個以命令定之的這個彈性了你不覺得很悲哀嗎百年前人家認為這個有必要因為要讓行政權彈性的運用就因為一個小小NCC主委的位置可以把這個摧毀所以我說我自己在看國家在運作我是非常的難過這件事情因為我以前的老師向前林三田老師因為他太太劉初之老師是我以前的導師"},{"start":7328.257,"end":7350.18,"text":"在廢除刑法100條等等的那些遊行我們都參加過我們也都認為因為這些東西要廢除掉才會讓台灣走向一個正常化的民主國家中華民國才能變成真正憲法上所說的民主共和國結果呢這幾年這樣玩越玩越爛我真的覺得難以想像啦就當年我們在奮鬥我們陪著這些"},{"start":7351.315,"end":7368.375,"text":"黨外人士 民進黨人士 或者是很多老師 很多社會運動團體我們上街頭了那麼多次我們最後得到的是什麼一個政黨拼命的在摧毀我們的法律制度別的東西我不懂但是我法律念了幾十年我是一次比一次難過啦那尤其是像這一次"},{"start":7369.79,"end":7384.198,"text":"如果這套搞法三讀通過施行的法律他也用就直接控制幾個大法官就把你認為違憲或甚至連生肖都還沒生肖的法律他也要搞一個大法官來幫你處理掉這個都是我覺得立法院幾乎可以廢掉了"},{"start":7386.161,"end":7404.013,"text":"要嘛以後叫大法官來列席說我們這條法律可不可以立 變這樣第二個就是說立完法律之後馬上送給大法官 請問大法官們你們認不認同 認同就生效 可以變這樣嗎那剛剛複密你講的權力分立的概念在這個制度下就蕩然無存"},{"start":7406.441,"end":7429.958,"text":"我還是不這麼認為啦我還是認為現在的這個做法已經完全在摧毀我國的法治制度而且一年一年因為每一次個案事件就一次的把它摧毀掉所以我跟各位報告為什麼這次大法官會卡關第一個原因我在這邊講話我絕對負全部的責任第一個原因的發生是因為柯建民總召不願意送院會排案"},{"start":7431.138,"end":7451.616,"text":"我想各位立委都很清楚他的理由是什麼因為當時國會改革法案在釋憲中所以他認為這個東西的釋憲完畢之後再來審查大法官的人士他用這個當理由然後他就是堅持不送案不送案到最後整個大法官人選送到立法院了但是就沒有辦法到院會去審查一直拖拖拖拖到最後"},{"start":7452.864,"end":7476.008,"text":"國會改革法案都釋憲完了 他還不送 搞到最後才送送了以後呢 就人選不OK啊不管國民黨 民眾黨 或民進黨都有覺得不OK的人選後來七位就都沒有過嘛那七位都沒有過的那一天開始總統可以隔天就再提一個新的名單出來啊但是總統都沒有提"},{"start":7477.114,"end":7497.762,"text":"結果民進黨那個造謠政黨或某些立委造謠習慣了就開始一直說國民黨民眾黨在癱瘓憲法法庭那我剛剛講到現在哪一個東西是我們在癱瘓因為你不把大法官人選送院會審查的是柯建民他不送院會審查就不能審查的結果"},{"start":7499.161,"end":7510.006,"text":"一直拖到然後來審查不過總統可以趕快提啊兩個月內就是隔天也可以提的意思嘛他也不提不提之後人數不夠結果現在就來罵說國民黨你們癱瘓憲法法庭這對還是不對啊這造謠習慣了嗎"},{"start":7515.988,"end":7535.675,"text":"所以我一直覺得很奇怪的一件事是說我從小要求自己要以誠信為基礎結果來立法院之後看不出來大家都在騙人耶然後每個人騙完人之後第二天也是神清氣爽的跟大家聊天沒有人為自己說謊或講錯話被發現然後覺得一絲一毫的慚愧這就是我國的立法院"},{"start":7539.402,"end":7564.417,"text":"我以前還沒進立法院的時候 我覺得每個立委看起來都覺得好大好厲害來這邊怎麼會那麼多人在說謊那麼多人在講錯話之後 然後也不用負責不用道歉然後第二天還可以非常精神抖擻的來我相信在法院在地檢署 法官檢察官如果幹了一個這個事情他第二天搞不好不敢來上班這我們司法人員對自己的嚴格要求 就在這裡完全看不到"},{"start":7567.438,"end":7592.793,"text":"因為時間關係我覺得有一些東西別人問過的我就不再問了所以我個人認為啦所謂的預防性的權力救濟已經不是民俗用法裡面那個例如說債務關係等等那種權力已經是力量的力 權力救濟因為他要救濟的是自己的執政權 統治權我看到的是這樣這個已經跟我們所知道的完全不一樣了"},{"start":7593.581,"end":7617.67,"text":"那如果說今天國人或民進黨委員一直覺得有人在癱瘓憲法法庭的話第一個要罵的是誰是總統賴清德為什麼你不趕快提嘛你趕快提人選讓我們審過兩個就可以運作了啊你為什麼不趕快提還有柯建民總召你當時為什麼要一直把我們的言當在那裡不讓我們送院會去審查大家一直叫你送院會結果你就是不送"},{"start":7618.73,"end":7626.417,"text":"要怪就怪這兩個人啦 不用怪其他人其他人就是認真的審核每一個人符不符合大法官的資格而已"},{"start":7627.438,"end":7649.194,"text":"我看到的就是這樣所以憲法法律應該是國人來遵守而不是讓國人來操弄我今天看到大家都是在操弄憲法法律已經各式各樣的程序只會滿足他單一一次的需求例如NCC主委單一一次他希望變成萬年主委他就給你玩這一套這看起來其實很悲哀我也希望全國人民能夠聽懂我在講什麼"},{"start":7649.955,"end":7677.903,"text":"我一直希望把法律以最白話的方式告訴全國國民我一直努力在做這件事情我希望讓大家看清楚誰在說謊誰總是在說謊而且他們明明知道自己在說謊他們也知道我們知道他們在說謊但他們持續繼續說謊而且不當一回事在我看來這丟臉人格是完全毀滅掉而且最近這幾天又發生了很多事也是很明顯的翻車打臉被說謊被發現一樣也不當一回事"},{"start":7680.475,"end":7696.233,"text":"那個司法院你們的網站你們回去看你們在講大法官的時候有一個圖這個是你們網站的圖你們上面也寫十位啊至少要有八位啊連你們都這樣講其實大法官的人數為什麼在很多國家他有一個最低"},{"start":7697.185,"end":7725.681,"text":"人數的要求 我想請教一下兩位韓國的話 憲法法庭他召開要幾位大法官出席他有幾位大法官 以及要幾位大法官出席韓國跟我們說明 就我了解他們有九位大法官那七個大法官出席好 那美國呢美國是九位大法官 六位大法官出席好 那請問一下那個 副秘書長德國你應該清楚的 德國是幾位德國他是分成兩庭 一庭八位"},{"start":7728.061,"end":7730.854,"text":"然後要多少人出席"},{"start":7733.354,"end":7758.529,"text":"這就是我跟各位說的世界各國為什麼他們在訂定大法官人數以及出席人數最低出席人數要用數字來定之因為他們不讓少數的大法官因為每個人專業不同而讓最後的憲法判決會出來過於極端所以我國的憲法為什麼以前規定三分之二以上要參與評議然後要過半以上才同意也是希望說"},{"start":7759.529,"end":7764.973,"text":"為什麼要三分之二 要十位 就是因為他們希望不可以留於單一的專業"},{"start":7766.601,"end":7796.001,"text":"因為每個人的專業不同有人書界有人學書界有人懂民法有人懂刑法他不會讓最後假設剩下三位大法官就都學民法了然後就來釋憲刑法的部分這個是最低門檻的要求所以剛剛羅志強我也有提到捷克的制度是我們這次借鏡的制度結果這些國家你們最愛的美國也是這樣規定大家韓流最愛的韓國也是這樣規定我國法律來源的德國也是這樣規定都有最低人數的"},{"start":7797.061,"end":7824.934,"text":"要求就在我國變成是一個毀憲亂政 毀壞國家讓憲法法庭癱瘓的理由了那這些國家都白癡嗎這些國家設定最低的大法官出席人數的要求都是白癡嗎所以這個又是一堆立委不懂法律 法盲又在騙人都在騙國人然後叫大家說有人在癱瘓憲法法庭可是實際上你回過頭去看誰在癱瘓憲法法庭然後上次有委員說"},{"start":7827.284,"end":7848.943,"text":"什麼 三位 最後變成三位大法官開庭他說這個是極端狀況 絕對不可能發生請問一下兩位 大家法律念幾十年了法律的設計不是就要思考到極端的狀況嗎不然我們刑罰那麼多打擊錯誤 或是什麼雷家的"},{"start":7852.197,"end":7876.453,"text":"犯罪原因的條件說等等的 那些在實務上一百年也不會遇到疑慮啊我們以前不是唸嗎 兩個人同時下毒 都各下二分之一就剛好這個人死亡 那我要負殺人罪還是殺人未遂所以這個都是在法律上本來就會 法律設計會處理很多極端的狀況嘛那如果依照現有的制度 還沒有生效的限訴法 有可能三位大法官就開庭了"},{"start":7877.304,"end":7898.364,"text":"那這三位就可以決定國家的一切我們就是要避免這個狀況發生所以我們才會就憲訴法要這樣要求就竟然被某幾個立委到這裡來講說這麼極端怎麼可能發生還有法學博士欸某法學博士的立委在這裡說這不可能發生 以前也沒發生過我知道啊 可是法律的設計本來就是在面對各種形形樣樣"},{"start":7899.625,"end":7921.11,"text":"的可能性嘛所以我們在念民法在念刑法的時候老師出的考題都是在實務上幾乎不太可能發生的但是從理論上面你要怎麼回答所以我覺得很痛苦就來這邊面對一堆法盲的人我們在然後跟我們爭執法律或是自己明明懂法律也知道自己講的是不對然後在那邊繼續騙人好所以這樣喔我想喔"},{"start":7926.209,"end":7947.473,"text":"我今天在這邊就是因為兩位都是學長那我在這邊就跟兩位我能提的就提到這邊那再麻煩就是說接下來的不管有沒有人申請再麻煩各位能夠依照我國的制度去處理因為我對於法律以及訴訟制度的認知就是今天這個法律設立了"},{"start":7949.113,"end":7971.589,"text":"就是要長治久安即使今天這個法律設計對我完全不利我的個性就是完全的服從它因為我是個遵守法律的人我是個遵守憲法的人我不會去玩弄憲法不會去玩弄法律那我也希望說司法院也能像我們這種當年分發的時候的那個初心一樣我到今天我沒有變過但很多在玩法律的人都變了好 謝謝兩位請審發會委員"},{"start":7991.838,"end":8011.573,"text":"我們的吳宗憲召委本來要問他問題的他不在我這樣講他我就有點不好意思,因為不喜歡在人家背後講時間的控制是做召委"},{"start":8012.918,"end":8030.825,"text":"所以我看到他一直前面的8加2的時間全部在罵民進黨罵完之後超時之後才開始講簡報了這個實在是已經做召委的人他自己要控制其他人的發言時間他自己應該要尊重時間那我先請這個副秘書長跟我們的黃次長請副秘書長跟次長"},{"start":8041.204,"end":8047.835,"text":"這個今天齁我這個原本看到這個題目齁看到我們吳釗偉齁來來來我剛講你壞話你不在我就不好意思"},{"start":8053.687,"end":8077.623,"text":"今天看到吳釗緯定這個題目,我其實是看到的時候是非常高度的肯定這個我們在司法法制委員會能夠討論這個有關於司法訴訟實務上面,關於預防性權力救濟的適用這樣子的一個就法理上面的一個主題來討論我個人其實那時候是非常肯定的,就覺得特別也希望聽到吳釗緯在質詢裡面"},{"start":8080.219,"end":8108.004,"text":"就針對我們的這個究竟這個司法實務訴訟上面這個關於預防性的這個權利救濟的適用的法理問題只有剛剛聽了十分鐘這個吳昭偉在台上罵民進黨罵了8加2之後才開始講檢報檢報之後也沒有在談這個預防性的這個權利救濟而是整個在為這個限訴法的這個修法做辯護"},{"start":8109.841,"end":8131.432,"text":"那就讓我就又有一點失望了我覺得今天這個主題其實它是有兩個層次的我講這按照我們吳釗偉所排的這個我覺得非常好他就是我們在學理上來探討學理上來探討究竟這個司法在司法訴訟實務上面關於這個預防性的權力救濟的適用這個學理上面有什麼樣的學說雖然我們剛剛釗偉提到認為說贊成在這個憲法訴訟裡面"},{"start":8137.715,"end":8154.127,"text":"運用這個預防性權力救濟他剛剛的描述說這是極端的少數學說那這個究竟是不是極端的少數學說我們等一下來討論至少這個有兩個層次一個是學理上面究竟能不能適用這個預防性權力救濟"},{"start":8155.953,"end":8174.482,"text":"另外就是說在實務個案上面我看結果今天大部分的討論從剛剛我從第一個到大部分的討論全部都集中在個案就是什麼個案就是這次限訴法究竟是不是能夠適用這個預防性權利究竟所以就是學術的討論是一件事"},{"start":8176.604,"end":8204.933,"text":"學說討論到底在憲法訴訟裡面是不是應該要適用這個預防性權利救濟這是學說上的討論那至於學說上討論有定論之後那我們才討論說那在個案上面這次的限訴法是不是能夠適用這個權利救濟結果剛剛所有的討論大概幾乎集中在這個我們這次限訴法的這個適用是否能夠適用我覺得很可惜啦所以我想就利用我這一點點時間就來跟這個我們司法院跟法務部來探討"},{"start":8206.571,"end":8224.733,"text":"我就要回到這個主題啦至於說這個限訴法到時候我們行政院他用什麼樣的方式救濟他可能可以在這個是不是他在這個法案生效之前就提出這個預防性權利救濟或者是在行政院長附屬之後但是總統公佈之後"},{"start":8226.909,"end":8254.518,"text":"但是法律還沒有生效的那三天內來提出提出這個這個申請暫時處分這是第二種方式第三個就是等生效法律生效之後他再來提起提出暫時處分對不對就這個個案上面是不是這樣子我想是不是請副院長回答這行政院他能夠他他可以用這樣三種方式提出來他會這提出這個有關限訴法的這個這個訴訟是不是這這有這三種方式時間點"},{"start":8256.583,"end":8279.876,"text":"報告委員這個據報紙上所呈現的這個部分是行政院他們選擇的那個救濟途徑那這邊本院就是基於司法行政立場不便做評論這三種方式一個是在法律生效前他就先提那這就是今天要討論的主題是不是能夠有預防性權力救濟的適用"},{"start":8284.679,"end":8311.721,"text":"那另外一個就是已經公布但是還沒有生效那也可能是今天的這個主題範圍那第三個就是等公布實施生效之後再來提憲法訴訟這個就不在今天的主題範圍裡面它就已經不是預防性的權利救濟了那這個我看你們的報告這個事實上我們從過去到現在看這個法務部跟司法院的意見在法務部"},{"start":8313.049,"end":8338.372,"text":"法務部的意見黃執掌這個我看你們在書面報告第四頁裡面你們也有提到在目前需要在你們提到說必須為了避免司法權對行政權有過度的干預所以必須在事後救濟已無實意的情形下時有事前救濟的必要性對不對這個是關於行政訴訟法上的"},{"start":8338.792,"end":8352.706,"text":"對 行政訴訟法上的那事實上實務這個是你們所提出來的看法但在實務的判決上面的參照我們參照實務判決裡面事實上這個包括最高行政法院的裁定這個2183號裁定還有這個98年度的1515號"},{"start":8357.29,"end":8381.678,"text":"判決裁定他們都有有關行政機關的作為如果對人民發生重大有重大損害之餘得以其他適當的方式避免者不再指限了都有用這些相關的這些判例他來讓這個這個這個可能的突破法律的這個規範的適用的這個框架的這樣子的途徑他有規定一些要件對不對"},{"start":8382.765,"end":8410.178,"text":"我想這個並沒有什麼突破法律因為解釋適用上行政訴訟法的一般給付處分就是第八條的裡面就解釋適用上包含了這種違法性的不作為處分高高的要件在很多時間的關係所以我沒有重複我們這個剛剛已經有提過的這些法律適用有關行政訴訟法這個行政程序法它用第115條來准用准用民事訴訟法"},{"start":8411.719,"end":8429.07,"text":"準用民宿訴訟法的246條啦那在憲法訴訟法裡面又用這個這個第46條憲法訴訟法第46條來而且參考這個行政訴訟法第307條之一的這個體例他來整個來適用行政訴訟這行政程序法再用行政程序法再來準用"},{"start":8430.95,"end":8445.385,"text":"這個民事訴訟法所以它是準用再準用之後就這個預防性的權力救濟是不是能夠適用如果用這一條的解釋這個贊成的方面他們就是認為應該"},{"start":8446.946,"end":8469.56,"text":"這是因為訴訟程序的規定就是很多會用這種方式准用是因為不用重複規定那法理相通的地方也有相關的案件可以來參照不過我們可以看得出來從行政訴訟法去准用民事訴訟法的時候其實它的要件都有一些不同那當然憲法訴訟法怎麼樣是憲法法庭才會自己去行政我知道這最後還是當然是取決於憲法法庭"},{"start":8470.14,"end":8487.852,"text":"我請問副秘書長現在我要問司法院的意見我們這過去的釋憲的實務或者是過去立審判決的實務上面是不是有預防性權力救濟的適用的例子有或者是有相似的情形可以做這個類推適用的情形有沒有請這個司法院這邊說明一下我請書記廳長回覆這個部分過去的釋憲實務跟立審判決的實務"},{"start":8493.716,"end":8510.213,"text":"跟委員說明如果是以今天在我們報告裡面所定義的這個預防性的權利救濟那這個部分在過去的法制面跟實務面並沒有明確這樣具體的說法不過可以跟委員說明的是這是沒有具體的說法但是有沒有類似的情形可以類推的"},{"start":8510.834,"end":8536.744,"text":"如果要拿來說討論的話在舊治時代曾經有一種解釋類型是憲法疑義的解釋類型那這個憲法疑義的解釋類型在當時就有立法院立法委員在審議法案的時候認為審議中的法案有違反憲法的疑義申請大法官進行解釋不過這邊要說明的是這樣的一個解釋類型在憲法訴訟新制的時候已經把它刪除掉了以上有沒有這個可以這個支比這個"},{"start":8539.065,"end":8546.691,"text":"援引的這個法理或者是外國的立法力這個部分就我個人粗淺的了解並沒有這麼明確的說法好那這個齁我想剛才因為我們我們這個胡昭偉有特別講說齁贊成他認為齁在這個"},{"start":8562.797,"end":8584.998,"text":"關於預防性權力救濟在這個憲法訴訟上面的適用是極端少數的學說吳釗瑋剛才說這是極端少數的學說但是事實上它是不是極端少數的學說或者說就這個憲法解釋是不是能夠適用這個預防性的暫時處分這樣的做法事實上"},{"start":8586.687,"end":8614.927,"text":"我這個舉一個例子啦我們以這個當年馬英九總統所提名的大法官我們蘇永慶大法官他就在昨天在聯合報他就發表文章他的主旨當然是說政院務把憲法法律當工具這個立場是非常清楚的但是他在文章裡面非常清楚的寫到說違憲審查的制度設計是否只能以生效法律為客體答案不是那麼絕對的"},{"start":8616.923,"end":8633.304,"text":"答案不是那麼絕對這就表示什麼這就表示他在學說上面有贊成的有反對的這個是現在學術上面的現況至於你是贊成的到底是不是屬於極端的少數那個就變成是主觀判斷了連我們這個蘇永清前大法官他也說"},{"start":8635.106,"end":8658.047,"text":"是不是只能以生肖的法律為客體答案不是那麼絕對而且他後面還提到說法國過去採用這樣的制度那德國憲法法庭的建制初期也對抽象的這個憲政問題表示過同樣的這樣的看法也就是說這不是所謂極端少數的學說而是他確實是在世界外國立法律上面也有採用而且他是不是"},{"start":8658.968,"end":8687.986,"text":"一定要以生肖的法律作為這個釋憲的這個課題這個東西不是那麼絕對這個我想是大家在學術上面大家基本上有共同的認知所以這個我想就學術上面他當然有贊成的有反對的不同意見那在實際上面究竟這個這次的這個限數法的修正可不可以"},{"start":8688.854,"end":8711.126,"text":"可不可以準用我們這個預防性權力救濟的方式來進行這個釋憲我想這個我問次長有沒有用我問民主黨有沒有用他最後還是取決於憲法法庭對不對我們立法院在這邊開會開到天翻地覆大家做表決一致同意起立鼓掌也沒有用還是最後還是要看憲法法庭對不對"},{"start":8713.171,"end":8728.159,"text":"我想這個問題我想今天我就釐清到這裡啦我也讓大家知道說這個東西並不是說在學術上面真的是所謂少數極端那另外接下來齁這個時間已經到了我再借兩分鐘啦我不會用十分鐘齁我這兩分鐘的時間我這個上個禮拜感謝感謝就兩分鐘齁這個另外一個議題啦齁這個"},{"start":8737.751,"end":8766.201,"text":"這個上個禮拜我們陸委會有提到說這個剛才陳俊宇委員大概也有就這個問題來詢問過我們司法院就是說我們這個陸委會在上個禮拜提到就是說這個呼籲法官要與時俱進要設立國安法庭那第二天我們司法院就發了這個新聞稿澄清說明就是說你們已經有設已經有設國安法庭了是不是"},{"start":8770.508,"end":8773.094,"text":"所有每一家法院都已經設了那這個"},{"start":8775.992,"end":8798.138,"text":"這個你們的設置不只一般民眾不知道啦連我們國家的陸委會都不知道你們有沒有設置所以可見你們這個有關於設置這個國安法庭的部分那大家看到這些目前社會上普遍輿論對於一些目前國安案件的這些相關的審判結果都認為說是不是因為我們沒有設專庭或者是我們的這個法官對於國安的這些相關的認知不夠"},{"start":8801.823,"end":8810.073,"text":"不夠專業啦齁但是結果我看你們的說明你們有提到說你們這個自109年起齁陸續舉辦國家安全研習會案例研習座談會邀集省檢國安檢察機關學者共同研討請國安機關安排"},{"start":8821.6,"end":8839.537,"text":"協助安排課程對不對是不是是的這個持續都一直在進行那我最後我就不再敘述了我就提出問題那請你們能夠回答就回答不能夠回答請你們用書面在三個月內提出一個書面報告就是說"},{"start":8841.247,"end":8858.573,"text":"現在法官參與你們所提到這些國家安全相關的研習會跟案例座談會目前法官的參與人數這是第一個問題第二問題是不是有成效的評估報告這是第二個問題第三個問題是不是所有審理國安案件的法官都必須強制接受相關的訓練"},{"start":8859.833,"end":8880.104,"text":"這是第三個問題第四個問題目前這個國家你們所提到的國安局軍事情報局海巡署等實地的教學是不是已經有固定的合作機制還是臨時性的安排是不是有具體的成果課程的具體的成果這是第四個問題請問一併回答到時候書面一併回答第五再來這個"},{"start":8882.028,"end":8902.668,"text":"我們目前有一個指引啦我看你們的新聞稿裡面有提到一個有焦點團體建議法院辦理國家安全犯罪樣態量刑審酌時已允註意事項的指引對不對目前有這個指引啦在實務上是不是已經被法官廣泛的採用這個指引這個是接下來另外一個問題最後一個問題"},{"start":8904.775,"end":8919.951,"text":"我們目前的這些審判採用的標準是不是有這個標準不一的情況的存在這些問題請在三個月內提出個書面報告可以嗎可以好 謝謝現在麻煩機關依據審委員的要求在三個月內提報告過來"},{"start":8922.821,"end":8936.632,"text":"謝謝 那現在我們請莊瑞雄委員那在莊瑞雄委員發言結束之後我們休息五分鐘那再就不好意思就麻煩謝謝莊委有請我們司法院副秘書長王副秘書長還有我們憲法法庭的書記廳廳長我們楊廳長師姐你先休息副秘書長好 廳長好"},{"start":8949.85,"end":8962.007,"text":"其實你們到司法法治委員會裡面來到底是不是叫備詢這個我也都很疑問了很疑問了機關跟機關之間尤其是憲政機關其實"},{"start":8964.912,"end":8984.946,"text":"立法院基於整個民意的一個要求有監督之者 這非常合理啦但是呢 憲政機關其實之間也必須有一個相互的一個尊重以這一次啊 我看今天召委排這個題目我倒覺得這是一個大哉問也非常值得探討的一個問題副秘書長也好 廳長也好"},{"start":8987.639,"end":9003.259,"text":"我這樣望眼看去整個立法院裡面如果說要談整個法學素養的深厚跟兩位來做較量的話立法院其實也不敢去講話太過於大聲但是民意機關嘛本來講話聲音就會比較大"},{"start":9004.259,"end":9029.327,"text":"才好像會彰顯一定的一個聲量可是我還是要針對問題來提問就是說以今天來看司法院來稱為提起憲法訴訟法的一個違憲的一個審查它到底這個機關到底它是不是提起的一個機關那我自己的一個看法我是認為說司法院如果真的有破例的話你們去提起釋憲"},{"start":9031.668,"end":9054.734,"text":"畢竟你們在新聞稿裡面就提到說整個憲法的訴訟法的修正通過造成憲政機關運作上的一個困難這個其實你們去提起也是一個選項透過釋憲的一個方式這個好像是司法院來提看起來是很矛盾光一個憲法法庭跟司法院的關係就讓外界可以討論得非常久了但是各級法院"},{"start":9055.794,"end":9078.449,"text":"本來現在是各級法院都可以法官都可以申請釋憲那你說過去你回溯到1995年4-371號的時候當初大審法的時候也只規定最高法院可以申請釋憲而已可是大法官在審理的時候自己的程序的時候他有去認知到各級法院的法官也都是依照法律在獨立審判"},{"start":9079.71,"end":9104.92,"text":"沒有道理說各級法院就不能去申請所以大法官就一錘定音停止適用只有最高法院可以提起釋憲這樣的一個條文當年1959年是這樣子所以在本席看來這件事情如果立法院這樣的一個憲政機關通過了一個法律然後去限縮甚至於貪玩到你整個司法院尤其是你憲法法庭的一個運作的話"},{"start":9106.089,"end":9131.167,"text":"那憲法法庭你總不能講說你這個憲訴法條文通過啦我基於我是司法機關那我也不便自己主動去提起然後呢因為條文讓它生效以後你的門檻就是這麼高沒辦法我憲法法庭我就註定要停擺如果司法院或者憲法法庭是基於這樣的一個思維的話這個叫做失職這個叫做怠惰這個是形同拒絕啊"},{"start":9132.635,"end":9158.613,"text":"憲法法庭啊你整個憲法賦予給你解釋法律到底有沒有違憲這樣的一個權限我不曉得副理事長或廳長你們的看法怎麼樣好啦 廳長大大講啦你那做有專業的你就講你的就沒關係了你沒有 跟委員報告就是說剛剛也有別的委員槌尋有關於司法院過去有沒有申請釋憲這部分我們也有回答那當然"},{"start":9159.974,"end":9178.564,"text":"憲促法的規定其實總統及五院針對這個行使職權的時候所使用的法規範有抵觸憲法的時候都可以來申請解釋憲法所以就司法院來說在法條上面的事格其實是毋庸疑問的當然啦 事實系條就講得很清楚啦你們就是司法最高機關啦"},{"start":9179.164,"end":9203.604,"text":"但陳柱剛委員所理解的就是說因為司法院在目前其實司法院院長他同時是司法行政的首長以及身兼憲法法庭審判長的情況之下那這個部分司法院是不是要以司法行政的機關的身份向憲法法庭來提出事先案這個部分可能要由這個我們的首長做全盤的橫著這個哪有問題你提起的話當然你會有迴避的問題啊"},{"start":9204.665,"end":9218.939,"text":"你是不是到最後你提起司法院院長你本身就迴避就好啦不是這樣子嗎如果真正你們提起了憲法法庭的時候當然你身為一個機關的一個代表人那你司法院院長當然要迴避啊是不是這樣說我是覺得你們是在下一盤大棋啦我個人解讀啦"},{"start":9226.687,"end":9254.842,"text":"以這一次來看的話我一直會認為說你在限訴法這樣通過以後呢你從過去還不叫憲法法庭大法官會議的時候啊你們所做出來的四至五百三十號裡面講得很清楚 我想廳長你也會很清楚啊審判獨立是基於整個權力分立跟制衡的一個原理啊你司法本來就有一個自主性啊"},{"start":9256.138,"end":9276.63,"text":"否則你說因為立法院基於民意所通過的一個法令然後把你整個憲法法庭全部給趟換掉你說 我不行我憲法法庭我完全沒有辦法去運作那變成老百姓把這個權利憲法把這個權利交給你們憲法法庭那你們不是太多嗎我不曉得你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":9279.95,"end":9293.318,"text":"跟我說明就是說事實上你們可以講出很精闢的見解我都認為你身為一個廳長你可以你說副秘書長理的就比較屬於行政可是你們整個憲法法庭你們一個書記處的一個廳長你們看過多少號解釋"},{"start":9299.482,"end":9311.79,"text":"對不對 每一次大法官來做一個對憲法做出解釋 法律有沒有違背憲法的時候我相信你們都有接觸過很多精闢的一個見解這一個案件到現在來看 我不認為你們沒有著墨"},{"start":9315.615,"end":9342.057,"text":"回答委員的提問就是有關委員剛剛提到包括4-530還有過去在我們視線跟憲法訴訟判決時務那確實大法官或憲法法庭有關於憲法法庭的程序自主這個部分確實有過琢磨但是在具體的個案上面程序自主權如何的放射到什麼樣的範圍那因為目前我們討論的這個案子已經細數在憲法法庭"},{"start":9342.617,"end":9358.933,"text":"那身為司法行政我們真的不變多表示意見那可能就要看大法官他們在這樣的具體個案裡面他們怎麼去解釋適用憲法訴訟法其實如果要討論說整個現在系屬在憲法法庭的案件的話現在也有不少喔"},{"start":9359.614,"end":9382.85,"text":"就算憲訴法 你說複製了嘛 你說當它真正生效以後連憲法法庭在解釋這些案件 已經細數在法院這些案件的時候你總不能每一件都說 我現在評議 我現在人數根本全部都不夠我沒有達到這個門檻 我全部把老百姓申請的 全部不管是機關或老百姓所申請的"},{"start":9384.059,"end":9409.641,"text":"全部都不受理掉 全部癱瘓掉 每一件都不能解釋那要這個憲法法庭幹什麼那你們就完全受制於立法機關啊 這也不對啊立法機關當然是代表民意啊但是我們的憲法的設計不是只有單一的叫立法機關代表國家我們憲政機關不是只有立法機關啊我們憲政機關是權力分立啊我們憲政機關講的還是一個制衡的一個原理啊"},{"start":9410.882,"end":9420.907,"text":"所以我是覺得你們這樣扭扭捏捏我覺得廳長這樣聽起來好像也不對那以現在這一次來看你說行政院的政委提出的說預防性權利的一個救濟的一個可能性"},{"start":9422.796,"end":9445.012,"text":"以現在來看的話憲法訴訟法第一條開宗明義講的就這幾個類型我們很清楚可是以過去的案例大法官在解釋的時候他自己大法官的解釋大法官會議解釋等於現在憲法法庭的解釋他解釋出來就等於形同憲法不是嗎?聽到這個可以認同嗎?"},{"start":9446.437,"end":9454.287,"text":"是 他解釋不是來形同一個憲法那過去大法官在解釋大審法的時候他也跟你說你那個大審法不對"},{"start":9456.704,"end":9476.845,"text":"只有最高法院可以申請釋憲這是不對的因為本於整個基於審判獨立所有各級法院它全部都是獨立審判所以各個法院的法官他都可以獨立提出申請把整個大審法就把你給幹掉啦那同樣的基於同樣的一個法理啊還不是一樣嗎如果我現在是大法官我就採取這樣的一個精神"},{"start":9478.257,"end":9503.007,"text":"不是說為了什麼哪一個政黨你司法不用嘛司法你本來就是代表國家嘛哪一個政黨來那只是他本身是給予短短幾年名譽賦予他執政的一個機會而已嘛可是你司法你是整個國家你要延續下去的人你要看他合不合理欸如果任何人哪天假設民進黨真的是哪天在野啦然後發生了我們這個國會裡面的一個多數我們也像藍白聯手這樣亂幹的話你癱瘓掉整個司法制度"},{"start":9508.376,"end":9532.121,"text":"本席齊齊以為不可但是這個議題當然是值得討論你說到底是要用暫時處分的方式或者說整個預防性權利的一個救濟措施我也知道會有贊成的我也知道會有反對各自都言之成理各自都言之成理可是重點本席的重點不在這個地方本席的重點是在於說如果因為"},{"start":9535.489,"end":9552.677,"text":"大家都講求民意 司法機關還在講什麼民意司法機關你一個系屬在法院的一個案件不管你憲法法庭 或者各個法院哪一個人 多有民意法院可不管這一些喔尹錫悅剛剛不是被逮捕了嗎對不對 韓國總統啊那選出來也都很大的民意啊"},{"start":9557.901,"end":9583.809,"text":"很大的民意啊你司法機關哪有管你什麼民意司法機關你代表的就是國家啊你說總統是不是代表國家 當然算啦他對外是代表一個國家啊可是你一個司法機關裡面你也是國家最高的一個司法機關啊你本來就是基於獨立審判啊你不能去拒絕啊你不能是一個民意機關定出一個法律要把你整個憲法法令把你給趟換掉那你就說啊沒辦法立法院來的這些東西我們要遵守是這樣子嗎立法院我們法律很多都是亂定的欸"},{"start":9589.502,"end":9602.548,"text":"你們難道不知道審法的過程裡面嗎那是很 有些聲音法學或者說基於法律的一個原理所定出來的有時候常常在問你們的意見啊那反而這一些我們不問你們意見沒有問你們意見就會出問題不是說你們的意見不能挑戰可是當你們的意見完全都不受立法機關來尊重的時候問題就來了這一部法律就是這樣來的涉及到整個政黨的鬥爭裡面啊就會產生很大的一個問題啊"},{"start":9619.298,"end":9642.114,"text":"我們在座幾位委員我們也不可能一輩子都是當立法委員所以這種國家基本的憲政法理我還懂我還懂贊成的我認為言之成理反對的我也認為言之成理都可以去討論可是呢你憲法法令你總是要做一個決定啊你不能被繳卸掉啊不是這樣子嗎 廳長"},{"start":9645.854,"end":9659.668,"text":"跟委員說明就是針對目前三讀修正通過的限訴法那確實已經有不少案件有對這個部分來申請釋憲或者是暫時處分那我們相信下法庭會做適當的處理是啦 您當然會不好意思說但是我總會覺得 你看我再舉一號"},{"start":9665.174,"end":9688.225,"text":"你像你們在釋字在第599號裡面的理由書這講得很清楚喔爭議的法令的一個適用可能對人民的基本權利憲法基本原則或其他重大公義造成不可恢復或難以恢復的重大損害的時候而對損害的防止事實上具有局迫性的且別無其他手段可知防免時得權衡做成暫時處分之利益跟做成暫時處分之不利益"},{"start":9692.327,"end":9697.78,"text":"你看看喔 利益顯然大於不利益 申請人的申請於本案作之前 等作成暫時處分 定暫時狀態他談的就是可能欸"},{"start":9701.872,"end":9725.72,"text":"你們4-599也在談這一號所以我現在倒覺得我們司法院有點在玩大富翁遊戲到了要抽籤的時候你們到底是會抽到這個幸運卡或者說你的機會就是你先去提起預防訴訟來做一個救濟這個命運就是說你只能乖乖的去等法律聖教提起暫時處分"},{"start":9728.568,"end":9755.951,"text":"這個是你要抽的是機會還是這個命運這個值得司法院好好去做一個思考但是我在這邊再一次的建議再一次的一個建議司法院到我們司法法治委員會我還是期待你們拿出你們最專業的見解不卑不亢看到國會議員哪怕是聲音很大的嘶吼的哪怕是破護罵結型的"},{"start":9757.113,"end":9780.833,"text":"站在你們自己司法機關專業的立場不卑不亢去回應就好畢竟你們也叫做憲政機關啦平常你們只是預算在我們這個地方你說立法院基於整個憲政的一個設計我們確實有監督之權可是我們對於司法院來看的話我都覺得應該是多一份的一個尊重"},{"start":9782.074,"end":9799.119,"text":"人民當然對司法有很高的一個期待啊司法確實是 以現在來看的話我從過去一直看民調從以前 副民主黨這個你就要特別注意了我就從當學生的時候一直看看到現在司法的滿意度就不要管過你不管誰執政"},{"start":9800.529,"end":9828.541,"text":"就真的就沒有高過問題出在哪裡我也不知道司法國事會議我們也開開完以後呢陷入一些肢解頭痛一頭腳痛一腳可是到最後民調每一次出來以後我相信法律人都非常洩氣這是值得我們彼此再去努力的一個地方可是到國會以後我還是期許你們拿出你們最專業拿出你們最專業然後呢這個案件以現在來看的話"},{"start":9829.221,"end":9834.329,"text":"我覺得司法案其實你們本身就可以為自己找到解方以上 謝謝好 那我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":10245.674,"end":10262.224,"text":"好 那現在繼續開會 下一位我們請翁曉琳委員發言好 謝謝 有請副秘書長"},{"start":10269.863,"end":10279.817,"text":"副秘書長今天辛苦了從早上到現在其實我們今天思委會大概是這個全院裡面最認真的委員會都一直還有在這個"},{"start":10282.233,"end":10300.649,"text":"在進行相關的專案報告那麼事實上從這一兩個禮拜大家其實很關心的就是行政院的復議案還有民進黨委員會不會利用法律還沒有生效之前就提起釋憲案及這個暫時處分案那麼剛剛其實吳宗憲委員已經有問過了然後我也看了這個新聞"},{"start":10306.974,"end":10319.085,"text":"那麼應該就是民進黨黨團已經正式的據狀提出申請釋憲及暫時處分那麼我想請教一下就是這個案件是有民進黨委員親送的嗎還是誰去遞狀的"},{"start":10324.83,"end":10352.64,"text":"那個報案委員因為從早上我們都一直在那個立法院那我問一下我們廠長目前得到的資訊廠長知道是有委員親送的嗎親自送件還是這個我們不清楚這個我們不清楚好 那麼當然剛剛莊玉雄委員他們是認為說在法律未生效之前民進黨就是立法委員他是有"},{"start":10354.795,"end":10370.68,"text":"權利可以去申請釋憲的那麼最後的關鍵點當然還是在憲法法庭大法官要不要受理這個釋憲案並且做成這個暫時處分的裁定那麼事實上我們知道"},{"start":10372.148,"end":10393.223,"text":"在這裡我想請教這個副秘書長據您了解就是從我們行限以來有沒有曾經大法官是就哪一個釋憲案是針對還沒有生效的法律來進行釋憲的或是做成暫時處分案的這部分資料我是不是請蘇業廷廷長來回答好 是 請廷長"},{"start":10394.893,"end":10421.908,"text":"是 先回答委員 如果是有關於暫時處分的話目前准許的新救治加起來是四件那其實都是針對已經生效的法律已經生效的法律那如果是針對釋憲案或者是憲法訴訟在新制沒有 但在救治如果我們討論憲法一解釋類型的話就是在救治這個類型下面確實過去曾經在立法院在審議法案中就適用憲法的一 有申請過大法官做成解釋"},{"start":10423.009,"end":10428.676,"text":"不過剛剛我回答沈委員的時候也有提到那在新制沒有這樣的一個解釋類型所以在新制沒有那麼在舊制的話可能曾經有過一件可是呢在這個一件的這個案子裡面後來因為憲法訴訟法修法"},{"start":10440.388,"end":10467.585,"text":"憲法訴訟法修法然後也特別的將所謂的憲法一役的事件憲法一役的案子可以作為憲法訴訟標的這個類型把它刪除掉了所以就是說在我們憲法訴訟法現在第一條裡面所名列的六款的訴訟類型裡面其實是不包含我們現在講的所謂預防性的不作為訴訟或預防性訴訟"},{"start":10469.178,"end":10494.168,"text":"那麼這是憲訴法裡面很清楚的規定我想副秘書長跟廳長應該都很清楚知道憲法訴訟法跟行政訴訟法和民事訴訟法這是一個完全不同的訴訟法規那麼彼此是不是可以互相的援引甚至類推適用憲法訴訟法又再類推適用到民事訴訟法或行政訴訟法的規定請問你們覺得適合嗎"},{"start":10498.516,"end":10513.01,"text":"我們講這個我可以說明嗎是跟我說明那因為憲法訴訟法在第46條它確實有一個可以明文在性質不抵觸的情況下明文准用行政訴訟法那行政訴訟法因為它有"},{"start":10513.71,"end":10529.343,"text":"規定的部分很多可以準用民事訴訟法所以純從法理上來看的話確實在憲法訴訟的案件裡面如果大法官在個案認為性質不抵觸的話有些事項是可以透過準用行政訴訟法甚至有可能再準用民事訴訟法"},{"start":10534.648,"end":10551.704,"text":"其實在憲法訴訟法裡面它確實是有規定有一些條文它是可以去准用行政訴訟法的規定可是這個可以一再的擴大那個准用的概念嗎然後從憲法訴訟法准用行政訴訟法行政訴訟法又准用到民事訴訟法我認為這樣子的一個解釋"},{"start":10555.988,"end":10576.742,"text":"已經是超越我們原來憲法訴訟法裡面的相關的規定立法者並沒有授權憲法法庭有這麼大的解釋權可以去准用或是類推適用其他的法規那麼本席想要講的就是說其實從許中立院長"},{"start":10578.463,"end":10583.204,"text":"當時呢他主張司法積極主義認為說這個大法官可能在很多的這個涉及到這個法規的解釋上面可以更積極的更大膽的作為但是呢這個情況其實也構成了後來被很多"},{"start":10597.408,"end":10625.153,"text":"法律界的專家學者們批評現在大法官造法的問題很嚴重從這個憲判制8號到憲判制9號一個是實質廢止判決跟國會改革法案裡面其實都可以看到大法官已經從司法激進主義積極主義進階成為司法激進主義了大法官其實本來應該是作為最後的手段他應該要這個司法要節制啊"},{"start":10626.033,"end":10638.291,"text":"可是在這幾個判決裡面甚至在先前有好幾個憲法判決裡面其實都已經看到大法官他已經積極太過於介入整個立法裁量的空間"},{"start":10640.337,"end":10663.548,"text":"這簡直是這根本就是當成是立法者的這個太上皇了然後指導立法機關如何的去立法那甚至這個不應該是屬於立法不應該是屬於司法憲法裁判裡面的應該解釋的這個項目那麼大法官也都積極的介入我認為其實這是一個很危險的"},{"start":10665.987,"end":10690.495,"text":"很危險的一個情況我們在過去可能在我們的法治還不是很安定很競權的時候大法官能夠展現相當程度的司法積極主義是沒有問題的可是當他已經愉悅了作為一個司法者他的這個要謹守的司法自治這樣的原則之後他所造成的後果是非常非常危險的"},{"start":10692.649,"end":10714.419,"text":"當然釋憲權這個是立法委員的權利人民的權利 機關的權利可是關鍵就在於說該不該受理該不該進而做成憲法判決或者是暫時處分的裁定這個關鍵點還是在大法官那我現在"},{"start":10716.627,"end":10739.872,"text":"想要進一步的這個再請教副秘書長的就是我們知道其實上禮拜因為行政院他有提出復議了那麼他們這個復議理由洋洒洒的就認為這個行政院認為摯愛難行我想請教就是當時他們提出的復議案到底有沒有跟司法院事前有進行討論"},{"start":10741.276,"end":10749.642,"text":"這部分並沒有 完全沒有接觸所以所謂的治癌難行基本上行政院他自己認為限訴法的通過可能會治癌難行"},{"start":10751.68,"end":10771.654,"text":"這部分我們不便表示評論好但是司法院基本上是並沒有參與這個復議案的這個這個理由的這個撰寫好那麼我想另外我要問的就是說其實在我們這次審查限訴法的過程當中"},{"start":10773.133,"end":10793.289,"text":"本期是當時在第一會期跟第二會期都有提出限訴法的草案可是我自始至終我沒有看到司法院對這兩個法案有提出任何的對案頂多是在進行專案報告的時候認為可能會造成憲法法庭有一些"},{"start":10795.391,"end":10818.172,"text":"這個可能又回到過去的體制可能會覺得說有不太適合執行執法就是在憲法法庭裁判的時候可能會造成某種程度的困難度那麼可是如果說限訴法對於憲法法庭對司法院是這麼重要的話為什麼在當時這個法案審查過程當中司法院卻沒有提出對案是不是司法院消極怠惰"},{"start":10822.318,"end":10841.71,"text":"本院那個一貫的立場是認為當時就是修法前的那個憲法訴訟法並沒有至愛難行就是那個法條事實上是運作非常順暢的所以本院是建議不要修法因此沒有提出對案好所以呢就是你們都認為說這個司法院的立場認為原來限訴法都沒有任何問題運作非常適合"},{"start":10847.173,"end":10870.429,"text":"那麼但是現在就是當立法委員他代表後面的背後的民意然後我們也看到了很多的法律學者認為之前的限訴法就是出現了大的問題變成少數的大法官就可以做成憲法裁判而你們也知道其實我們這個工黨的委員在這個案子上面也非常的重視也認為這個必須要修改"},{"start":10871.129,"end":10889.708,"text":"可是如果說你們當時就看到或是有發現有一些問題的時候你們沒有積極的去提出對岸我覺得這就是一個司法太過於消極了你們也可以提出你們的看法哪個地方其實可以再斟酌再修正但是卻都沒有"},{"start":10890.488,"end":10916.119,"text":"這樣做等到我們法案通過之後那麼現在看起來反正就是大法官他按受理就受理那他這個要怎麼樣做成決定就全部都由大法官去決定我剛剛還聽到周睿雄委員他提出一個很有趣的一個看法他認為說這個憲法訴訟法因為他主要是規範的是大法官所以規範的是司法院所以司法院院長"},{"start":10917.498,"end":10940.675,"text":"應該要代表司法院提起憲法訴訟只要司法院院長迴避就好請問副秘書長跟廳長你們同意這樣子的看法嗎我們尊重莊委員的說法司法院未來會不會提釋憲呢這個我沒有辦法代表院長發言如果院長真的提釋憲的話所以按照莊銳雄委員的意見他就要迴避對不對"},{"start":10943.723,"end":10971.808,"text":"如果不是法定迴避是有而院長如果有自行迴避的話由全體大法官決定是否迴避所以大法官可以不迴避司法院院長提出釋憲案也可以不迴避我現在要講的就是憲法訴訟法它本來就是在規範憲法法庭審理程序的一個這次的修法它是規範憲法法庭的審理程序它基本上就是一個涉及大法官自己的我們所謂的涉及法案"},{"start":10972.728,"end":10998.582,"text":"在這個涉及法案當中大法官如果說還可以求員監裁判自己針對這個憲法訴訟法去做出裁判宣告這個修法是違憲的或者是說做成這個凍結憲法訴訟法的這樣的一個裁定我認為是極為不妥的大法官群體難道不應該迴避嗎這就是規範他們自己啊"},{"start":11001.604,"end":11021.792,"text":"你們的看法呢我可以說明嗎是跟我們報告那這個跟涉及事務有關的部分其實如果我們以過去的4-601號有關於大法官被刪除專業家籍那當時這個也是大法官的涉及事務那確實外界也有在討論到底大法官要不要迴避"},{"start":11022.412,"end":11047.891,"text":"那這個部分後來大法官在他解釋理由書裡面有很清楚的說明那其實所有的國家的憲政爭議那最後能夠做出最後一錘定音的答案在我國的憲法體制設計上就是大法官所以遇到任何憲政問題大法官遇到無可迴避的時候仍然應該與裁判這就是現在司法公信力為什麼蕩然無存的一個很重要的原因"},{"start":11048.991,"end":11075.097,"text":"明明憲法訴訟法它就涉及到整個憲法法庭的組織運作大法官的組成這個基本上就很典型就是由立法者他們可以就這樣子的一個組織架構去進行這個相關的立法的規範可是呢現在大法官只要是不符合這個司法院自己提出來的法案那麼只要是立法"},{"start":11075.777,"end":11095.94,"text":"委員立法院所通過的跟憲法訴訟法相關的規定就認為這個是違憲的規定那麼從司法院之前的報告然後到乃至於現在看到民進黨委員還有賴政府他們的見解幾乎都是如此這個基本上已經是嚴重的侵犯到立法的裁量權"},{"start":11097.505,"end":11124.228,"text":"那麼就大法官的這個審理的程序標準是不是要拉高門檻要不要拉高我們在先前已經非常多次的場合裡面就講這跟西方國家的門檻是接近的我們甚至都還沒有德國、法國、韓國這些門檻高我們這次還後來是採取了一個比較中高度門檻的這個捷克的法制"},{"start":11125.7,"end":11145.921,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下如果說司法院還真的自己提起釋憲司法院院長還可以自己說他要參與審判那我真的認為整個的憲法法庭真的會讓人家瞧不起"},{"start":11148.427,"end":11162.319,"text":"大法官的公信力會蕩然無存這個案子是一個非常指標性的案子全民都在看憲法法庭會怎麼做我們來看一下在昨天的聯合報"},{"start":11163.877,"end":11186.223,"text":"上面其實有兩位我們在法學和實務界的一個重量級的學者一位是前司法院副院長蘇永青蘇老師還有另外一位是董寶成董老師看看人家多麼的語重心長在呼籲司法院在呼籲憲法法庭"},{"start":11192.557,"end":11217.439,"text":"不要這個不要冒進啊大法官不要冒進陷入整個政治鬥爭之中其實我看了這兩篇教授的文章我感觸很多就是曾幾何時大法官竟然成為全民的公敵"},{"start":11219.295,"end":11234.868,"text":"大家知道嗎現在人民已經不相信大法官了不相信大法官會做成公正的裁判看看我們現在到目前為止憲法法庭受理的477件人民的事件案件當中"},{"start":11236.025,"end":11252.839,"text":"這些案子大法官有積極的去審理嗎 沒有只要是這個政府行政院提起的事件案絕對第一優先先審然後拖了這個三個月半年之後做出這個判決有贏得人民的掌聲嗎 也沒有啊"},{"start":11256.107,"end":11272.393,"text":"反而還引起大家對於大法官這個他是否公平公正能夠獨立的裁判能夠超越政治的這裁判都起了很大的質疑回到上一頁看看蘇永青老師怎麼說吧對蘇永青老師說希望行政院不要把憲法法庭當工具"},{"start":11283.823,"end":11309.683,"text":"也一再強調在大法官在這次憲法訴訟法的修正過程當中當時的修法理由就很清楚的把憲法一一的審查程序就刪除了早就不在現在的憲法訴訟法裡面了也就是不會針對所謂憲法一的案子去進行去進行審理它已經不是屬於市格的這個憲法訴訟標的"},{"start":11316.321,"end":11343.68,"text":"講到這裡我其實很感慨就是明明司法機關就應該要了解整個憲政權力分立原則要知道司法的最後性司法機關的節制更要尊重立法形成自由尊重立法者的立法權對不對這是在不得已的情況之下真的窮盡了其他的解釋還是認為說"},{"start":11346.702,"end":11365.528,"text":"這個大法官還是認為說立法者所定的法律是有問題的才能宣告違憲啊所以為什麼我們一直在強調所謂的核限性解釋說也就是只要針對我們的法律裡面有任何一個理由是可以支持這個法律是核限的大法官就要採那個理由"},{"start":11366.789,"end":11393.36,"text":"可是在上次我們的國會改革釋憲案裡面完全沒有看到大法官是基於過去上來解釋的一貫性的原則核限性解釋原則來進行解釋只要他們想怎麼解釋就怎麼解釋這個已經是讓很多的憲法學者研究憲法訴訟的學者們都認為大法官是怎麼了"},{"start":11395.945,"end":11417.342,"text":"現在真的是完全不見大法官的風骨向政治靠攏這是極其可悲的事情話說回來這次的憲法訴訟法修正通過之後雖然我們明定大法官出席的人數要有10人"},{"start":11420.023,"end":11432.67,"text":"那麼眼前當然現在總統還沒有正式的公佈這個法律這個法律如果一旦公佈之後請問大法官是不是真的沒有其他事可做了嗎"},{"start":11436.048,"end":11462.648,"text":"跟委員說明 如同我剛剛跟其他委員所說明的就是有關於受理案件或者統一解釋法律命令這個部分因為現行規定並沒有被修正所以我們目前仍然會持續以三個審查庭來進行案件受理與否的審查那如果有統一解釋法律命令的部分那也可以在目前的人數下做決定那至於其他的案件類型能不能運作這是屬於審判事項 我們就不便表示意見"},{"start":11463.649,"end":11470.233,"text":"依照我們現在憲法訴訟法新修正過的法案大概就是要做成實體判決還有宣告法律違憲然後暫時處分等等這些類型才需要這個要有一定的出席人數的門檻還有做成憲法裁判或是裁定的這個門檻所以代表大法官他還是可以有很多的事情是做的並不是說是完全憲法法庭就被癱瘓"},{"start":11492.622,"end":11510.802,"text":"我想今天已經有很多委員其實也不斷的在重申講憲法法庭癱瘓的這個用語是很惡劣的憲法訴訟法的修正最重要的就是要讓整個的憲法的審理程序更加嚴謹那麼為什麼這個"},{"start":11514.326,"end":11539.278,"text":"我們只要求各級法院的法官在審理程序的時候要重視程序正義那大法官呢既然釋憲的時候呢就可以不重視程序正義不重視程序的合法性既然已經要憲法訴訟法通過就是十個人最少的這個出席人數就是十個人那宣告法律違憲就是九個人就按照那樣的程序去做這有什麼至暗難行的地方"},{"start":11541.448,"end":11566.787,"text":"我實在是不懂就是大法官憲法法庭在想什麼我真的是希望他們不要把最後自己的一點尊嚴或最後一點的公信力會毀在這次的民進黨委員所提出來的事先案上面不該受理的就不該受理的該盡速駁回的就盡速駁回"},{"start":11567.932,"end":11596.443,"text":"不要隨著執政黨隨機起舞這個是我最後對司法院對憲法法庭的呼籲希望副秘書長還有廳長可以帶回去給代理院長知悉那麼司法院還是應該要謹守自己的角色"},{"start":11597.836,"end":11626.57,"text":"如果真的如莊瑞雄委員所說的自己提起視線我認為這是會一笑大方而且呢不僅如此還會被全民看不起以上謝謝好謝謝王委員那下一位我們請鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員"},{"start":11627.865,"end":11651.158,"text":"蘇清泉委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員賴士寶委員賴士寶委員賴士寶委員吳思堯委員吳思堯委員吳思堯委員侯孟凱委員侯孟凱委員侯孟凱委員葉元之委員葉元之委員葉元之委員"},{"start":11653.823,"end":11679.689,"text":"那所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢詢答結束那委員執行時如果有要求提供相關資料或已書面答覆者請機關請訴送交個別委員及本會委員楊瓊英所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報並請相關機關已書面回覆那本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":11684.675,"end":11686.527,"text":"沒事 這個會期不用再開了"}]}},{"id":"158895","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158895","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1a3a08f99a73dca53c5a45ebd5c2e75318b9af4de1086944f15e656c1fa01693ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:19:43 - 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其餘均照列改列為414億2426萬3千元"},{"start":2103.191,"end":2111.897,"text":"二,業務總支出原列400億224萬9千元,共計減列1340萬元,其餘均造列改列為399億8884萬9千元,三,本期剩餘原列13億8801萬4千元,增列4740萬元,改列為14億3541萬4千元,三,結繳供庫金額15億元造列市轉投資計劃無劣數,"},{"start":2133.592,"end":2142.431,"text":"五 固定資產建設改良擴充三十二億四千一百零四萬三千元造列六 國庫增撥基金額無劣數七 通過決議三十五項"},{"start":2143.908,"end":2163.363,"text":"二 作業基金 作業基金 國軍老舊眷村改建基金一 業務計劃因依據業務收支轉投資 固定資產建設改良擴充及經營用等項之審查結果隨同調整二 業務收支 一 業務總收入六億三千九百七十二萬兩千元造列"},{"start":2164.043,"end":2181.48,"text":"新业务总支出原列4亿6749万4千元减列业务成本与费用业务费用向下业务费用中会费捐助补助分摊救助剂与交流活动废支捐助补助与奖助100万元其余均造列改列为4亿6649万4千元"},{"start":2184.711,"end":2196.597,"text":"3.本期剩餘原列一千一億七千兩百二十二萬八千元增列一百萬元改列為一億七千三百二十二萬八千元3.結繳公庫金額無劣數4.轉投資計劃無劣數5.固定資產建設改良擴充無劣數6.國庫增撥基金額無劣數7.通過決議十一項"},{"start":2206.963,"end":2225.403,"text":"三作業基金國防醫學院軍事教育基金一業務計劃因依據業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等向追審查結果隨同調整二業務收支一業務總收入七億八千兩百九十四萬四千元造列"},{"start":2226.063,"end":2242.058,"text":"二 业务总支出 原列8亿6318万9千元 减列业务成本与费用 教学成本向下 教学研究及训辅成本之服务费用250万元 含修理保养及保护费200万元 一般服务费50万元"},{"start":2242.678,"end":2270.067,"text":"其餘均造列改列為八億六千零六十八萬九千元三本期短處原列八千零二十四萬五千元減列兩百五十萬元其餘均造列改列為七千七百七十四萬五千元三結繳公庫金額無劣數四固定資產建設改良擴充一億五千七百七十七萬兩千元造列五國庫增撥基金額一億六千三百六十九萬兩千元造列六通過決議事項"},{"start":2272.463,"end":2295.013,"text":"是資本計劃基金國軍營設及設施改建基金一業務計劃因依據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整二基金來源用途及餘處一基金來源一百四十七億四千七百三十五萬五千元造列二基金用途原列三百九十三億一百二十六萬三千元簡列資安園區專案計劃五千萬元"},{"start":2297.216,"end":2301.699,"text":"老舊營舍整建計畫2億2300萬元工程及設施整建計畫4億500萬元共計減列6億7800萬元其餘均造列改列為386億2326萬3000元三本期短處原列245億5390萬8000元減列6億7800萬元改列為238億7590萬8000元"},{"start":2325.033,"end":2350.552,"text":"3.補辦預算固定資產建設改良擴充90億8千萬元造列4.通過決議八項5.114年度中央政府總預算案國防部主管國軍生產及服務作業基金國軍老舊眷村改建基金國防醫學院軍事教育基金及國軍營舍及設施改建基金附屬單位預算均審查完畢審查結果送財政委員會會總後"},{"start":2351.857,"end":2365.31,"text":"提報院會不需交由黨團協商院會討論時有王昭己委員定語出席說明六有關委員提案內容文字及金額在不影響提案原意下授權議事人員修正處理宣讀完畢請問在場委員對上次會議議事錄有無遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處"},{"start":2379.465,"end":2398.99,"text":"那議事錄確定 請議事人員宣讀報告事項報告事項二 邀請僑務委員會委員長報告因應世界政經局勢變化如何在總和外交政策中串聯僑界匯聚海外僑力 擴增友台力量壯大我國經貿實力 並被質詢 宣讀完畢現在介紹在場的委員 許巧欣委員羅美玲委員"},{"start":2410.083,"end":2433.111,"text":"王逸川委員介紹與會的官員委員長徐家青副委員長阮昭雄主秘張良明綜合規劃處處長郭淑珍僑民處處長賴麗穎"},{"start":2441.83,"end":2469.967,"text":"僑教處處長林紀榮僑商處處長游凱全僑生處處長王怡如祕書室主任邱惠燕人事室主任楊志傑主計室主任林秀燕"},{"start":2473.065,"end":2488.365,"text":"資訊事主任白忠光政風事主任楊尊仁法規會專門委員徐佑林僑務通訊社社長吳曉竹"},{"start":2493.271,"end":2505.322,"text":"本日會議邀請僑務委員會委員長報告如何在總和外交政策中串聯僑界匯聚海外僑力擴增友台力量以壯大我國經貿實力並被質詢請徐委員長上台報告"},{"start":2527.053,"end":2554.79,"text":"林昭偉各位委員大家早安今天本會很榮幸能夠再一次來到應邀來做專案報告那本報告呢資分前沿以及全球政經局勢下的台灣機遇與挑戰總和外交政策中僑務工作的價值與功能串聯僑界連結台灣共同發展的具體策略僅就上面幾項呢最後結語五個段落進行不令執教"},{"start":2557.179,"end":2580.041,"text":"台灣政府以總和外交的策略,全力實踐賴總統的價值外交理念,攜手友邦、理念相近的民主國家等各種有我的力量來共同發展。海外僑胞對台灣都有深厚的情感,更具強烈的使命感,在在都在協助台灣向前發展,台灣非常需要僑界的緊密合作。"},{"start":2582.677,"end":2586.626,"text":"接下來請就台灣的機遇挑戰分為四項跟委員報告"},{"start":2589.568,"end":2613.663,"text":"在政經局勢劇烈變動的今天台灣有以下幾項的機遇與挑戰本會分四個面向跟大家報告首先是反民主勢力擴散的疑慮當前中國等威權政體持續的對國際社會秩序構成威脅台灣也大幅增加與全球民主陣營合作的空間"},{"start":2614.764,"end":2643.355,"text":"但在海外面對中國的各種統戰威脅我方仍需要審慎的因應其次是文化力與國家自信的展現文化力是國家最根本的實力本會以Move to Next Generation作為工作的重點讓僑界的年輕人下一代能夠更深入的理解台灣的文化內涵成為爭取全世界支持台灣的重要青年文化大使第三"},{"start":2644.375,"end":2666.74,"text":"透過全球產業鏈快速的變動來展現當前台灣是全球不可或缺的驅動引擎我們抓住此契機協助海外的橋台商投入相關重大的包括半導體產業等等的合作來發展產業趨勢第四在全球競爭人才的"},{"start":2669.048,"end":2685.18,"text":"趋势之下,本会因应产业的需求,结合台湾的学制优势,运用台湾科技系导的前瞻技术,推动揽财的计划,以延展乔生的人才策略,展现政府在全球竞争人才当中的优势。"},{"start":2687.423,"end":2705.851,"text":"其次針對僑務工作的價值與功能分就幾點跟各位委員說明總和外交是我國政府以多元進步的價值為基礎來連結國際期盼能夠結合各方夥伴強化合作其中現在在全球"},{"start":2707.151,"end":2712.872,"text":"台灣有超過200多萬的台僑208萬以及超過6000個僑團1000多所僑校超過17萬的畢業僑生校友這樣豐沛的僑民社群能量構成了台灣與世界的重要聯繫橋樑近期外交部林佳龍部長擔任總統特使出訪帛琉"},{"start":2731.036,"end":2747.096,"text":"我們也看到世界台商總會、亞洲總會都已籌組投資考察團前往陪同與柏柳政府商談投資與經貿合作充分發揮海外橋台商充沛的能量與世界緊密合作"},{"start":2748.939,"end":2770.171,"text":"其次,跟正式的外交工作相比,僑民外交工作事實上有更大的彈性空間。透過僑民的社群聯繫合作,包括以文化、教育、經濟、科技等交流來推動雙邊實質的合作,可以協助政府在正式外交工作開展更多的合作機會。"},{"start":2771.352,"end":2791.88,"text":"進一步來說全球的僑民長期深耕在僑居地與當地的主流人士有緊密的連結全球的僑民在社群發聲能讓台灣的聲音讓世界更加聽到因此僑務工作在總和外交的政策上是有很大的效益能夠推動台灣參與國際社會爭取國際支持其次要針對"},{"start":2798.895,"end":2817.848,"text":"發展台灣共同的具體策略 我們以下幾點來串聯僑社第一 在串聯僑社連結共同發展的具體策略上我們有七個面向來跟委員報告首先是深化與海外僑團的交流互動"},{"start":2820.308,"end":2834.44,"text":"為強化海外的僑社與台灣的連結扎根僑界的工作本會致力於促進僑界與台灣緊密合作邀請了各地的僑社領袖來台參訪每一年包括有很多的傳統僑社都會定期組團來訪以及政府首長"},{"start":2839.431,"end":2857.824,"text":"到全球走訪橋區等多元模式來推動確保橋社的永續發展同時鼓勵下一代新年能夠參與更多的橋界活動為橋社注入動能持續的擴增有我的力量第二結合全球的人脈"},{"start":2859.308,"end":2871.555,"text":"為台灣發聲為了鼓勵僑團在僑居國的人脈運用爭取當地主流人士的支持過去幾年來台灣參與世界衛生組織及聯合國等國際組織活動單單以去年一年僑界就有46個地區111場的活動超過10萬人以上的參與加深了全球對台灣議題的關注"},{"start":2886.035,"end":2910.877,"text":"第二 第三 為全面推廣具有民主多元的台灣軟實力本會配合僑界的需求辦理各種循迴性的講座包含有台灣美食展 經貿專題講座同時也攜手國內的觀光旅遊業者共同拓展以美食 外交振興國內的觀光鑒於語言跟文化是"},{"start":2913.379,"end":2932.449,"text":"兩位一體的關鍵 僑委會正積極的推動華語文的深耕計畫華語文深耕計畫在過去幾年於歐美地區已經設立了84所台灣華語文學習中心推動具有台灣特色的華語文教育讓台灣的華語文的產業能夠在世界繼續"},{"start":2934.391,"end":2943.987,"text":"擴大發展吸引世界各地的國際人士來學習華語文並充分的了解台灣的文化向世界展現我們的多元魅力"},{"start":2945.199,"end":2971.513,"text":"第四,引领侨台商与台湾各界的强化合作侨台商具备有在地化、国际化与全球化的优势是台湾产业前进海外市场最佳伙伴而台湾在全球的科技供应链当中又扮演了关键角色拥有强大的科技研发的实力因此可以协助侨台商的短期升级并且拓展新的商机、市场及占比"},{"start":2972.233,"end":2998.56,"text":"本會將持續整合扮演橋樑的角色配合國家推動五大信賴產業來協助我們的橋台商繼續在全球發展同時也讓我們海外的商社商會能夠壯大透過橋台商的實力成為台灣經貿量能的延伸重要力量第五以培育及流動橋升方案來協助台灣提升競爭力"},{"start":3001.479,"end":3029,"text":"本會提供海外青年學生來台接受優質的教育讓僑生深入的認識台灣不同領域的進步與發展更增加對台灣的認同本會透過舉辦海外英語服務營在過去兩年分別都有25個23個國家來自世界各地的青年朋友不單單只有華裔的人口世界多元族裔的人口也都參與了我們的英語服務營的營隊"},{"start":3031.081,"end":3057.483,"text":"多面向的擴大海外新生代對台灣的認識同時也有華語營的活動吸引更多年輕的小朋友可以在台灣就讀就學以及深化華語的學習第六近年來我們聚焦以台灣日等相關活動來行銷台灣海外的僑界"},{"start":3059.025,"end":3075.419,"text":"在本會的協助之下持續的連續三年都以辦各類的台灣日活動來成功提升國際的能見度並且介紹了台灣的多元文化例如去年剛剛我們在德國的波鴻盧爾大學"},{"start":3076.26,"end":3092.822,"text":"台灣日的活動就以台灣華語文學習中心為核心包含我們僑團及志工成功的吸引了當地有600多位的德國友人參加或是在美國成人職棒的各個場域裡面幾個重要的"},{"start":3093.763,"end":3112.256,"text":"大都會城市都有臺灣日的活動舉辦讓各界透過城邦、職邦遊行活動來搭配臺灣團隊讓海外的僑界能夠積極參與主流活動更加拓展提升臺灣的能見度"},{"start":3113.917,"end":3134.018,"text":"亦或是如在澳洲南部也以多元文化節等大型活動加上美食巡迴民俗表演等等成功的拓展了台灣的傳統文化的領域第七在全球化的時代本會由於我們的沒宣預算是非常的緊"},{"start":3136.636,"end":3151.108,"text":"非常的緊縮因此我們也高度的運用多元平台希望透過社群平台讓全球的僑胞可以快速的掌握在國內重大的訊息以及國際重大的變化"},{"start":3152.169,"end":3177.982,"text":"本會官網總共有六大系統包括僑物電子報、YouTube、Facebook、Line、X、Instagram的社群再搭配文化部的台灣plus等平台我們快速且正確的將重大的政策台灣的現況向海外傳遞同時也在我們的僑物電子報設置了僑胞關心議題的專區打造及時健全的資訊交流傳遞網絡"},{"start":3180.41,"end":3207.642,"text":"最後在面對充滿挑戰與不確定的全球環境中所幸台灣在僑界鼎力支持之下我們在許多領域都還有非常傑出的表現也讓世界認識台灣僑界僑胞更認同台灣就如同去年國慶大會的僑胞代表自此當中所提民主自由及人權是我們永遠"},{"start":3208.956,"end":3234.213,"text":"不退讓的堅持說出了僑民們共同的心聲透過海內外共同共享價值匯聚全球的僑力促進更多的交流合作而達成壯大海內外發展的具體目標我們展望今年的僑務工作將更加的著重與拓展海外僑界力量希望能夠深耕僑區的人脈資源轉換成台灣有力量的前哨站"},{"start":3239.256,"end":3252.274,"text":"共同来为台湾发声配合我们总和外交的政策助力台湾向前迈进以上仅就以几点跟委员说明敬请委员不吝指教感谢大家"},{"start":3260.621,"end":3277.188,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員6加2分鐘非本會的委員5分鐘10點半發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點半前提出11點左右是詢答的情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台諮詢謝謝主席有請徐委員長"},{"start":3290.199,"end":3291.34,"text":"請委員長羅委員早安委員長早安委員長我們球友會從106年就開始推動台灣青年海外搭橋計畫每一年我們都會選送國內大專院校優秀的在學青年在暑假的時候前往海外各地來做參訪跟見習"},{"start":3315.555,"end":3317.496,"text":"有看到每一年我們報名的青年學子都非常的踴躍我有看到全國會提供的資料單單在去年113年就有超過2800位的國內的青年學子來報名然後我們有領選了59位的優秀的學子"},{"start":3338.764,"end":3349.673,"text":"去年7月份的時候有到泰國、澳洲還有美國進行為期7天的參訪的見習計畫到現在從106年代現在我們有看到有665位的台灣青年獲選來參加我們都知道說這些孩子從國外回來之後其實都要寫一份見習之後的報告"},{"start":3365.266,"end":3367.067,"text":"就放在他們個人的這個社群平台這次我也看到全國會其實也會來做這個刊載那甚至還要製作影片等等可是我想請教就是說很難得孩子有這個機會到國外去做參訪"},{"start":3381.011,"end":3396.926,"text":"那除了說我們就是回來之後做了這個成果發表會之後到底有沒有在後續呢有相關的一些計畫因為本期所看到就是說每一屆我們這些孩子出去之後可能最後的ending就是在他們的這個發表會"},{"start":3398.988,"end":3404.429,"text":"之後然後我們車友會其實好像跟這些600多位的台灣青年好像沒有在後續的這個相關的一些交流跟活動我想這個能不能說明一下謝謝羅委員的關心讓我有機會能夠來充分的對這一個大橋計畫做說明事實上我們雖然是106年就開始舉辦但是疫情期間大概停了兩三年"},{"start":3426.335,"end":3447.434,"text":"那麼從去年開始確實受到非常多的關注那我們也覺得這些優秀的大學生他們有機會去海外見識包括國際的領域也了解我們橋界的生態那麼也為他們未來的生涯規劃注入一些新的元素讓他們可以提前做準備"},{"start":3448.175,"end":3464.741,"text":"那事實上這個每一年大概有60位左右的學生呢我們從去年開始他們回來除了有這些社群平台自行的發表video或者是發表一些攝影啦或者文字的這個展出以外事實上我們開始讓他們籌組一個就是青年搭橋計畫的這個長期的一個等於是一個聯盟的活動"},{"start":3474.264,"end":3491.398,"text":"那就跨界呢可以彼此都聯合在一起那同時我們也覺得說這些年輕人是非常有心也非常積極那我們事實上從去年開始又向下扎根辦了這一個高中的探索營那麼就由這些其中已經參與過我們搭橋計畫的學員來擔任輔導長"},{"start":3495.822,"end":3501.085,"text":"繼續帶領更年輕一輩的在這些營隊的活動當中做很好的引導角色那除此之外我們也讓他們一一分門別類比方說我們在去年有這個北美洲台灣的醫師協會他們反台辦理40年的這個活動的時候呢我們特別也召集了這些在海外的Medical doctor是年輕一輩的"},{"start":3522.877,"end":3542.18,"text":"來跟這些在台灣的搭橋計畫也是念醫學院的學生進行交流座談那因為台灣的這些優秀的Medical doctor事實上已經都是在各大學醫學院同時是臨床醫師也同時是教授那他們對於我們的學子幫助就很大"},{"start":3542.66,"end":3559.745,"text":"所以有十多位醫學院的學生參加了這個座談會以後覺得對於他未來的生涯發展提供了非常多重要的建議所以我們就搭配著我們既有的一些相對的文化活動或者是一些專題的活動或者橋台商的活動我們都會積極的幫這些台灣的搭橋計畫學員來做一些進一步的媒合讓他們有興趣的領域可以持續的發展"},{"start":3571.329,"end":3576.352,"text":"那當然今年呢我們由於去年的這個報名人數破歷史新高2800個"},{"start":3580.148,"end":3606.837,"text":"以上的這個申請案我們只挑了60個老實說是真的非常競爭那到今年呢我們就從善如流因為委員們都很關心說這麼多人這麼優秀那我們可不可以增加名額但在我們預算有限的狀況之下今年我們是有擴增一些所以我們名額會提到80幾位那就是希望說多增加幾個不同的路線能夠讓更多的優秀台灣的年輕人"},{"start":3607.877,"end":3618.927,"text":"出國去學習跟見識同時他們也在海外的時候跟我們在海外的這些第二代第三代的年輕人也建立很好的互動關係這是我們在搭橋計畫近兩年來具體的一些發展新的面向"},{"start":3624.151,"end":3638.137,"text":"是委員長剛才講到非常重要一點就是說其實這個計畫其實要有這個延續性那我們現在開始來做那為什麼本席會提出來是因為本席辦公室有一位同仁其實他就參加了第一屆的這個大橋計畫他說他從這個交完這個計畫成果發表會之後他說橋口會再也沒有跟他聯絡過所以為什麼我會在這裡提出來"},{"start":3647.401,"end":3654.043,"text":"因為我覺得真的是非常的可惜那當然我們很開心聽到委員長說其實這兩年我們已經積極的就是要建立一個交流的平台那我覺得這種學長學弟制的那種學弟妹制也很重要因為也是一種經驗的這個傳承我想因為我知道說這計畫最主要的目的是要讓這些青年學子培立成為未來橋界的這個人才"},{"start":3670.529,"end":3677.633,"text":"然後我有看到你們有提到說進一步蛻變成為宣傳台灣之橋屋外交兼併計畫這個很重要的一點那居然要有這一點要實現的話我想從106年之後的這些曾經參加過這個海外搭橋計畫的這七年學子其實我們都可以一把找回來因為我的同仁就說沒有耶他們從來沒有聯絡過我發表完之後其實我們也覺得非常的遺憾他說其實應該要有一個連續性的這個計畫好 謝謝委員長"},{"start":3700.307,"end":3723.755,"text":"那再來還有一點我還要提到的就是有關於這個海外的這個校友會的這個成立的部分因為我今天我也看到這個委員長你有提到在這個節育的時候你說展望114年僑務工作推動了需要鞏固跟擴展海外僑界的這個力量當然其中就包含的這個留台校友會那我們看到說其實呢從2021年開始台灣"},{"start":3726.476,"end":3740.66,"text":"台灣的這個出口貿易在對美國也好是對東協十國來講其實都都是有上升的那剛好這些東協十國呢或是美國其實很多僑外生也都到台灣來來留學那我們有看到在數據上我們可以看到就是說其實馬來西亞目前有59個這個留台校友會甚至馬來西亞還有這個"},{"start":3746.782,"end":3763.562,"text":"劉台總會他們這個組織算是非常的完整那是因為馬來西亞來台你也說喬瑞森其實有五六十年的歷史有歷史淵源可是我們看到泰國、印尼也有成立再來還有一點我特別看到就是越南越南目前只有"},{"start":3764.463,"end":3770.668,"text":"兩個這個留台校友會其實我們知道說近幾年來不管是校友會也好或者是教育部其實呢就成立了很多這個橋外生的這個專班我想畢業回去的這個越南的這個橋外生應該也不少所以我就想說這個校友會應該是要積極來輔導向越南他們來成立這個校友會因為校友會其實呢因為曾經在台灣念書生活過所以對台灣的向心力其實是非常強的那藉由這個校友會作為我們跟"},{"start":3794.666,"end":3813.681,"text":"這些東西國家也好或是澳洲、美國、加拿大這些國家都好我在想在這個連結方面或是對這個兩國之間的這個互動其實有很大的這個幫助所以這個部分可能除了馬來西亞之外其他的國家我們都需要積極來做輔導這個部分"},{"start":3816.603,"end":3828.675,"text":"會 我們會加強因為越南這十年來的學生確實有增加但是已經畢業回去的相對還沒有很多所以目前是兩個教委會組織但我們可見的未來可能再等個三年到五年左右我相信這個教委會就會像遍地開花一樣各地都會產生"},{"start":3839.386,"end":3857.409,"text":"OK 那我知道這幾年因為我們在國際情勢上真的是非常的困難然後橋友會我也知道委員長跟副委員長其實很積極的走訪各國去拜訪橋界那這個努力是本期是非常的肯定那當然在數據上可能還是有需要加強的地方好的 好 以上謝謝謝謝羅委員 謝謝謝謝羅美玲委員委員長請回接下來我們請王逸川委員上台質詢"},{"start":3878.41,"end":3880.692,"text":"委員長 謝謝請委員長黃委員早安好 委員長早你們辛苦不會這個剛提到台灣日因為我看你們的書面報告跟我認知的台灣日不太一樣是"},{"start":3898.405,"end":3926.768,"text":"裡面只寫什麼德國啦這個澳洲嘛是事實上台灣日很多在美國沒錯你剛剛報告的時候就把這個職棒加進去了對好這個去年的大都會的台灣日停辦你知道嗎我知道為什麼仍然是因為中國因素的干擾這麼嚴重是好那你知道最近蔡奇昌會長要去澳洲嗎知道"},{"start":3927.366,"end":3942.2,"text":"知道 也是為了台灣日嘛對他們的職棒隊對 澳洲職棒對 比賽好 這個台灣日對宣傳台灣是一個主權獨立的國家是很重要的"},{"start":3942.961,"end":3958.396,"text":"那我覺得僑委會要多用一點各式各樣的方式是有沒有信心在今年至少在一百個城市或者小鎮或者學校至少弄個一百個台灣字"},{"start":3959.848,"end":3968.15,"text":"跟委員報告我們台灣日確實是有很多元的特色那美國的職棒因為是美國民眾的主流娛樂之一那所以事實上在美國我們現在各大都會不管是東岸西岸南岸北東美西美南我來舉幾個這個跟委員說明東岸呢有這個從Boston紅襪隊的主場到這個紐約的大都會對這個委員長我知道"},{"start":3988.814,"end":3994.857,"text":"然後一路到這個華府到這個亞特蘭大這個東岸就整條四個大城市都有了南部Houston也有然後西岸呢我們從這個包括從西雅圖一路到這個南加州這個也好幾個不同的這個主場都有在參加台灣日連Arizona的場都有"},{"start":4010.365,"end":4023.963,"text":"好 那你應該有在看 或者是阮昭雄副委員長而且我們對於小朋友那個U12 U14 U16 U18我們僑胞都非常非常積極的去參加那這些事情跟僑委會有什麼關係"},{"start":4024.773,"end":4050.236,"text":"因為只要有僑胞關注參與的空間,我們僑委會就要積極的去關心那因為這些比較商業啦,不是說你要參加就參加,這個要開展的或者是中間有人在幫忙連結啦那其他的地方的這種台灣製啊,比如說各個大學國際上的各個大學,我們的學生會"},{"start":4052.078,"end":4072.479,"text":"應該僑委會或者外交部各式各樣或者我們台商會或者在地的同學會教育部的這種組織應該都要努力讓台灣在世界被看見這才會是總和外交對我們包括像加拿大在東岸西岸每一年也都會辦這個多元文化節"},{"start":4073.24,"end":4089.793,"text":"但是多元文化節雖然是以早期用台灣為主體但近幾年來我們有心的幾個僑領很成功的把當地所有的各族裔的僑民都整合在一起所以台灣變成是這些文化日的主要organizer"},{"start":4090.933,"end":4104.782,"text":"這個可能到時候包括文化部就是說這些大家一起整合進來第二個你們有這個喬教中心或什麼華語文中心請問這裡的老師都怎麼來的"},{"start":4106.259,"end":4134.424,"text":"我們在全球呢有一千多個橋校那這一千多個橋校從五十年前橋民陸續外移的時候就有很多人是自主性的籌組起來這種橋校那有一些原來是擔任自己真的是做華語文的這個專業老師去到海外那絕大多數的呢其實包括當地的留學生或學生家長那因為基於要傳承語言跟文化"},{"start":4134.944,"end":4150.645,"text":"自己也接受一些專業的培訓去擔任老師所以這幾年的師資更加多元這些老師有沒有中國人我們如果是在台灣華語文學習中心我們就明文規範不可以有中國護照"},{"start":4151.411,"end":4178.77,"text":"好 那他們會用中國的用語嗎譬如說 委員長早上好不會 我們都是用正體字的教學然後我們也開發我們自己的他們會不會講早上好基本上我們的橋校應該這樣說會有一些中國學生來學習這是必 不是學生學生那個不管老師不會 老師還是會說早安午安晚安好 很好 對"},{"start":4180.625,"end":4204.206,"text":"這個不要再讓這個僑界反應說啊在教的都中國人都用中國用語事實上沒有 搞到我們的學生搞不清楚然後就學習了然後學了之後啊回來台灣參加活動的時候那更奇怪我們講的都中國話這個可能大家因為用語上還是不太一樣的OK那這樣很好"},{"start":4205.447,"end":4226.799,"text":"喬烏委員最近有一些新聞你應該也有看過喬烏委員可不可以認同台灣是中國的一部分我們現在大多數喬烏委員都說中國文化是台灣文化的一部分很好那有沒有喬烏委員會對外說台灣是中國的一部分"},{"start":4227.822,"end":4244.609,"text":"這種委員基本上現在都沒有了都沒有喔都沒有了就不要有人反應喔沒有日之前的這個有媒體報導這也不是新聞因為他是因為過去他做生意喔才因為客戶那個個案我不談對 個案我們就不說我不清楚啦就是講"},{"start":4245.609,"end":4261.299,"text":"不要讓我們在海外的我們的僑務委員一定都是有非常深刻的支持中華民國台灣而且是認同台灣反共為前提的才會接受我們的邀請成為總統聘任的這個僑務委員我們現在的台僑啊應該現在應該到差不多第三台第四台好那這台僑啊"},{"start":4272.21,"end":4274.111,"text":"會參加僑團僑社的活動嗎早期確實人數非常少但是這兩三年我們積極的努力之下現在年輕輩的來參與的人數開始增加不少這個要努力喔要不然我們的僑團僑社會老化"},{"start":4290.282,"end":4310.948,"text":"真的真的我們有比較過台橋社團由於我們很有意識所以就積極的在培養下一代所以像我們今年開始的這個定的總額目標就叫做Move to Next Generation就是希望說將比較多的這個活動量能跟資源放在培育下一代第二第三第四代"},{"start":4311.468,"end":4329.339,"text":"那麼像傳統僑社他們就有很嚴重的這樣的挑戰傳統就是說如果你僑社還是站在僑社僑團站在純粹聯誼啦是固定時間吃飯啦那個年輕人就不會有興趣的沒有錯如果他來譬如說他來他有機會做創業對他來有機會交朋友"},{"start":4333.201,"end":4347.557,"text":"好,那譬如像在台灣的這種四大社團,他就會參加是阿不然齁,當時我們是海外的外黨齁,包括外交部的代表處啦,僑委會,批一本命啦對那吃飯的那一大時間齁,第四個吃啦,吃吃都放太清道總統的講話而已啊"},{"start":4352.742,"end":4376.308,"text":"委員你的觀察非常深刻所以我們這幾年也是積極的引導喬社說這種傳統聯誼活動的這個比例就下降然後多增加辦一些年輕人有興趣的比方說如何創業所以新創的議題介紹專題的 科技的 文化的那這些年輕人都相對有興趣對 這樣就對了那我們請這個喬委會這個委員長還有我們副委員長大家一起加油 謝謝謝謝 謝謝汪委員"},{"start":4382.51,"end":4383.351,"text":"謝謝王逸川委員委員長請回接下來我們請徐巧欣委員上台質詢謝謝主席我們請徐家欣委員長請委員長"},{"start":4406.914,"end":4423.786,"text":"許委員早安 早上好我不覺得這是什麼中國用語那首先我們先看一下最近的這個時事可以看到這個LA的大火是大家現在僑民最關心的我介紹到非常多的這個僑民在反映這件事情"},{"start":4424.466,"end":4453.909,"text":"这个我想图上可以看到LA的大火它从1月7号开始它燃烧面积799亩而且这个整个都还没有控制下来那我相信这个新闻上都有看到那去了解呢这一次的那个Air Cardia还有那个Monrovia还有Pasadena这些地方都有很多侨胞跟LA的居住居民那请问在侨胞协助的部分我们有没有掌握状况"},{"start":4454.338,"end":4459.139,"text":"有 我們對於台橋的這個台橋或者是華橋在跟我們有具體的這個聯繫狀況之下我們都有掌握哪些橋明已經有因為房子被燒毀或者是這個有一些財產的損失等等這個目前都有掌握中"},{"start":4474.463,"end":4501.267,"text":"那這個我們可以看一下外交部跟僑委會這邊外交部跟去LA的辦事處他們其實都有在包含Facebook官網上面公布這次LA大火的協助資訊可是我們僑委會目前是沒有的雖然外交部這篇我也不滿意因為好像是推給民間團體但至少有做可是我們希望說相關的我們的臉書因為第一時間大家不知道怎麼辦可能會上網看"},{"start":4501.827,"end":4513.48,"text":"那希望說在這方面我們有掌握就是說它可以我們提供什麼樣的服務在我們的臉書上官網上也能夠做一個比較精確的一個讓大家搜尋的這個區塊這是第一點"},{"start":4517.024,"end":4538.696,"text":"我們也收集了一些LA校友團體他們在協助避難收容的情況那這個就是他們現在在講的那很多都是鄉親現在他們自己在尋找這個撤離避難的據點所以就是說有沒有可能我們當地包括我們的僑委員等等的那一起就僑委會請他們來協助說有華僑或我國居民的協助聯絡處彙整相關的資訊好"},{"start":4545.579,"end":4548.943,"text":"跟委員報告由於這個洛杉磯大火分三大區塊還在目前燃燒中沒有完全撲滅那這兩天呢據說又有一個新一波的分崩又可能會再起那所以我們都密切的關注目前的撤離整體大LA地區撤離的民眾已經高達19萬"},{"start":4567.383,"end":4585.061,"text":"那當然除了在地有一些比較多的華裔人口也有很多當地的人那在這樣的狀況之下確實我們是還沒有放在臉書但是我們在群組裡面是有PO一些訊息我們有些僑團的幹部都有把私訊做匯整好"},{"start":4586.642,"end":4595.332,"text":"因為當地許多的僑團社團是有私下協助的可是他們有跟我們反映說希望可以待會轉達說希望僑委會能夠主動做整合的動作這點要麻煩我們的委員長"},{"start":4600.418,"end":4602.4,"text":"我們事實上目前幾個主要社團在彙整大火的震災情形有大洛杉磯台灣會館、世華工商婦女會還有洛杉磯台美商會、南加州台大校友會、中華會館"},{"start":4619.341,"end":4627.591,"text":"還有慈濟總會在美國佛光山洛杉磯分會以及我們海外台灣鄉親關懷聯合會這幾個都是屬於僑團組織性的在提供這些災民避難的時候的一些協助"},{"start":4637.822,"end":4656.932,"text":"那也好那也讓他們知道一下就是說超委會有在做這個整合就可以了是是是好那另外一個問題喔是最近喔這個先前有那個柬埔寨的KK園區那後來沉寂了一段時間因為大家都有在就是各等於說整個東南亞包括台灣都有在抓嘛"},{"start":4657.512,"end":4683.062,"text":"那现在有一个新兴的手法我自己身边有被害人那他们现在是去找这些小艺人比方说中央社报导27岁的火舞表演者谢先生在脸书上看到工作邀约在12月25号搭机到泰国之后失联那最后锁定的位置在缅甸而且他们要的是30万的赎金那30万的赎金"},{"start":4683.602,"end":4703.178,"text":"那紧急向高雄警方报案之后两地警方合作之下又回到台湾那虽然这边不是这个警政署我也会跟他们说明但是呢这个类型的状况因为我们之前在柬埔寨的期间2022年的时候侨委会是有"},{"start":4704.199,"end":4727.678,"text":"提供LINE的專線的LINE ID就是台灣Hochiming的這個訊息喬委員會會將相關訊息轉至胡志明辦事處予以因應所以就是說現在這個新型態的部分除了警方部分他們都有去報案了但是呢就是他現在的狀況是我特別跟委員長講他們是先到泰國所有演出"},{"start":4728.038,"end":4738.507,"text":"然後上了車之後被迷暈被迷暈之後醒來人在緬甸所以確切的定點在緬甸那他們有時候不知道自己在緬甸的哪裡所以說我想要問先前因為2022年我們僑委會有協助這個柬埔寨"},{"start":4743.912,"end":4748.234,"text":"那這次的這個從泰國到緬甸的事件我們僑委會這邊可不可以也提供類似的相對應的協助我們在泰國代表處跟在緬甸代表處都有派駐我們僑務組的同仁所以這個個案如果有這個聯繫一個管道我們一定會協助他們"},{"start":4764.121,"end":4793.003,"text":"之後我把訊息提供給您好嗎沒有問題而且還有他可能是系統性的是要拜託這個喬委員長就是我們那個系統性的問題要解決因為越來越多了真的而且他這次上次他們以前都是說去做詐騙這次真的不是去做詐騙了我已經很確定這次都是說去表演自動新興手法大家覺得是自己是小表演團體然後泰國有很多表演機會然後上車之後直接迷暈醒來在緬甸"},{"start":4793.783,"end":4820.855,"text":"是我覺得這蠻恐怖的這一定是有某種集團在運作對對對然後緬甸他就要交署金是因為變成變成是說泰國跟緬甸的邊境因為他們控管沒有那麼嚴格所以就很容易在這個地方對所以他比當時的柬埔寨還要麻煩一點那時候台商也有幫忙然後喬委會有幫忙然後那個警政署有幫忙是的那現在的話就是說從泰國到緬甸這一段呢他的難度增加了"},{"start":4821.275,"end":4842.815,"text":"那我希望就是說委員長這邊可以我們就是跨部會的去協調那相關個案我會再提供給你那請委員給我資料我會請我們小屋主同仁積極的去聯繫那最後一個問題就是關於那個就是有關這個巴西聖保羅的這個案子性騷擾密兔的事情那監察院這邊我直接講簡單一點監察院這邊他就說呢這個"},{"start":4849.122,"end":4851.184,"text":"那我想問一下喬偉輝對監察院的這個說明那這個您的回應是什麼"},{"start":4871.383,"end":4895.658,"text":"我們認為這個報告裡面只有引用片面的看法並沒有如實的把我們所提供的資料證據做充分的揭露那所以它的用詞包括都用疑似我們認為正式官方的報告不應該用疑似的這種用字的寫法如果你只是懷疑你沒有證據怎麼會可以定罪呢那你們會跟監察院提出什麼樣的"},{"start":4896.178,"end":4919.775,"text":"我們會正式的提出一份我們的報告那再來就是說這個有關於該位疑似的受害者那我們看一下那張圖表就是橋委會十年來烤雞餅等或被雞大鍋的人是少之又少那之前橋委會這個職員是橋委會十幾年來烤雞餅等再加兩大鍋的唯一一個人那這個是不是事實"},{"start":4921.016,"end":4935.821,"text":"這是個事實他因為記兩大過一大過是因為礦質另外一大過是因為洩漏與中資的人員來往好那我想要問一下這個在113年的烤雞兩大過的關係是否他可能會被列為丁等"},{"start":4936.601,"end":4952.55,"text":"這個是公務人員服務辦法的規範我們都沒有裁量的空間就是礦池只要超過五天就是一大鍋這個我們也沒有裁量空間所以相關的你們後續跟監察院這邊的我們都會提供資料"},{"start":4953.05,"end":4971.741,"text":"來函的部分呢 那就請提供給我們讓我們參考 知道你們的進度那也希望就是說呢 不管在哪一個部會齁不是針對僑委會 任何的一個部會我們對於職場霸凌也好對於MeToo性騷擾之間也好我們都拿出最嚴格的標準來盛事好 謝謝徐委員謝謝徐僑新委員鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在"},{"start":4983.846,"end":4989.874,"text":"黃仁委員黃仁委員黃仁委員不在接下來我們請陳冠廷委員上台諮詢主席我們請委員長有請委員長"},{"start":5007.683,"end":5028.904,"text":"陳委員早安委員長早好委員長今天我剛剛有看一下這兩天媒體有在報導有關於我們一個僑務委員那有相關的行徑那受到社會的一些公平那我想請教一下不知道你有沒有看到這一則新聞有"},{"start":5029.605,"end":5040.85,"text":"OK那你們的反應是什麼有沒有做澄清稿有說法是什麼事實上我們已經說明過這個都是在他擔任僑務委員僑務委員的遴選方式是怎麼樣"},{"start":5043.764,"end":5060.863,"text":"僑務委員基本上我們都是會在當地請我們僑務同仁收集各方的資訊有收集到他推薦之前在懸掛五星旗沒有從來沒有過那表示說我們收集的這個方式或者是說我們情報收集的方法有誤嗎不是有誤而是"},{"start":5063.446,"end":5091.951,"text":"委員我們不可能對每一個海外的僑民做地毯式的這個包括他所以說最基本的對於國主的認同算是地毯式的我相信盧委員對中華民國的這個向心力認同你相信是基於什麼樣的這個我在日前的諮詢已經回應過說他因為他的生意往來有中國的客戶所以他是因為基於跟客戶來的時候他所有的國旗都掛出來並不是只有掛五星旗"},{"start":5092.631,"end":5112.527,"text":"所以說他的效忠的部分有信心有辦法替他背書有有而且我們特別告訴他說如果你今天要被授聘為僑務委員的時候有一些國家的忠誠度基本規範這你必須要遵守如果你沒辦法做到那我們就無法建議名單到總統府去"},{"start":5113.107,"end":5140.863,"text":"所以說這一個名單我們通常僑務委員建議的名單到總統府最基本的忠誠考核是有的是有的那至少是委員長就不管是你接觸或者是同仁所收集的資訊可以知道說他懸掛的五星旗不是只有單一一面五星旗不是所以大家可以看到當時有包括中華民國國區而是有其他的外國客戶包含中國的客戶是所以他是在美國是"},{"start":5141.303,"end":5157.685,"text":"那因為有其他國家的客戶包含中國的客戶所以裡面的國旗懸掛了不只一面嘛是的沒錯那如果是這樣子的話那我認為這樣子的說法包含我們不管是各個新聞媒體我們第一時間我們要跟他講的是說有一些主觀的說法是沒有辦法去證實的"},{"start":5158.766,"end":5180.163,"text":"但是有一些客觀的至少是在國族認同的部分對國家認同的部分它是可以經得過討厭的 可不可以這麼說可以 可以這樣說謝謝 謝謝我覺得這是很重要的就是說我們沒有辦法因為不管是在從商還是任何的中小型的NGO團體它都一定會有競爭競爭的時候可能會有各種不同的說法"},{"start":5180.723,"end":5196.422,"text":"那如果沒有真正的調查報告出來之前我們沒有證據去指控或者是說這一個人他就是做些什麼事情要以證據為導向那至少我們能做的就是在聘用僑務委員或者是這些重要的不管是榮譽職還是非榮譽職的時候"},{"start":5198.024,"end":5224.941,"text":"對於國家的認同我們有最基本的考核那剛才委員長這樣的答覆我是可以接受的那以後我們更要注重這件事情就是說如果任何假設因為現在有各種不同的訊息那有類似這樣的質疑的時候逼時間就把他質詢出來照片也拿出來說就不是一個不是單一事件是在美國我們他們有各種不同的這個通商的對象那本來就是會有國與國之間的關係美國跟中國也是國與國之間的關係嘛那他們是僑胞他們是僑民當然是"},{"start":5227.242,"end":5246.4,"text":"不會說他們同時都是美國的公民所以這件事情我必須再強調一下就是說第一個中程考核這個部分或者說國家的這個認同的部分這個我們未來這個是我們能做的就是要做到我們有辦法做的就涉及司法的涉及調查的這個是"},{"start":5247.521,"end":5272.701,"text":"這個可能是他們商務事件的糾紛或者是各種可能性都有那這另外一部分由社會去公平讓他們自己要負起自己的責任國家能做的是這邊私人能做的是這邊那當然其實這樣子的爭議他們我相信媒體也是有所本但是還是一樣我們強調這個部分就屬於私人的部分公私我們把它分開來但是接下來的問題就是關於洛杉磯僑胞的處置"},{"start":5276.334,"end":5281.076,"text":"委員長知道最近洛杉磯的野火的狀況嗎是非常嚴重非常嚴重那這個野火的狀況有沒有掌握到我們的僑胞的狀況是怎麼樣有我們具體上來講目前的這個僑胞有人身安全通通沒有受到任何的這個具體傷害"},{"start":5296.861,"end":5298.563,"text":"但是財損確實有不少所以我們大概有掌握了大概八戶是有這個真的因為在火災當中這個房舍被燒毀那麼有一些財產的損失包括車輛等等的"},{"start":5312.134,"end":5316.418,"text":"但是目前為止因為大火都還在持續中所以我們都密切的在觀察因為風向會隨時改變那有可能燒的區域範圍又會擴大那我們也都積極的宣導讓住在比較靠近可能是會風向導向的這個大火波及區都希望他們預先撤離至少人身安全先顧起來"},{"start":5337.657,"end":5352.902,"text":"比較重要的個人的這些文件或者個人的比較私密財產的東西可以移走的就先移走這部分我們都有在宣導那委員長這個部分跟外交部的分工是怎麼分工基本上我們在洛杉磯有這個辦事處辦事處是統一指揮"},{"start":5357.043,"end":5359.346,"text":"那我們的僑務組呢因為我們有設立這個僑教中心那僑教中心他都積極的跟所有我們在大洛杉磯地區的各個僑社就保持密切的聯繫知道他們可以提供什麼樣的援助或者是他們的這個會員或者親友之間有什麼樣受害的情況"},{"start":5377.425,"end":5403.575,"text":"資源上面人力上面沒有重複反而是有分工的效果所以說甚至是我們不見得是僑胞可能是我們的留學生然後還有一些短期觀光的旅客那萬一需要協助那剛好這個我們僑界有資源甚至是有空間可以釋出的話那他們也可以去那邊避難大概是這樣子的概念因為我們在大洛杉磯已經成立兩個集難救助協會那這個兩個集難"},{"start":5407.196,"end":5410.118,"text":"我們成立極難救助協會就是希望幫助旅外國人他可能是短期去經商或探親或就學交流等等那他臨時遇到狀況的時候他就是向我們這個極難救助協會來行仇協助"},{"start":5422.307,"end":5448.939,"text":"那他們不用直接跟吉蘭教育協會就直接跟我們的這個出外的辦事處理師直接聯繫然後他們就會把他轉介到那邊去對沒錯那現在我們有學生有相關的受困的狀況嗎目前學生沒有但是我知道那個大火有燒到UCLA的這個部分的區塊所以UCLA也有做部分的撤離最後一個問題因為這個想要請教其實我去年就有在談的"},{"start":5450.16,"end":5468.679,"text":"大橋的計畫2025年海外的大橋計畫也是我們橋委會的旗艦計畫旗艦計畫我想他做得非常好我們辦公室也有同仁過去也是在大橋計畫今年有沒有已經到中南部宣傳"},{"start":5470.117,"end":5471.439,"text":"謝謝委員的關心我們很重視這個區域的平衡性所以中南部的大學也很多所以我們"},{"start":5486.359,"end":5498.477,"text":"計畫在今年度我們除了北部的說明會我們也會到中部南部各有一場就是希望說讓不同區域的學校大學的學生都知道這些資訊可以來跟我們報名爭取所以"},{"start":5501.874,"end":5520.268,"text":"各一場 中部跟南部各一場那雲嘉地區算中部還是南部 中南部我們會聯絡學校 多講一些啦 文長這個光是我們的雲嘉的院校就蠻多從科技大學到國立的大學 私立的大學 其實"},{"start":5523.69,"end":5545.383,"text":"我們雲嘉南高這四個縣市跟屏東這樣全部會串在一起最好是都各一因為真的是很多同學不知道讓他們知道有這個機會這次有幾個名額這次我們有84個名額因為委員大家都很關心所以我們在很有限的預算裡面在努力把它擠出來多了24個"},{"start":5547.544,"end":5558.429,"text":"讓應該是說資源還是分配就是我們也希望能夠均衡台灣就是讓比較弱勢的朋友同學們有機會出去好的因為競爭真的很激烈謝謝委員關心謝謝陳冠廷委員"},{"start":5578.188,"end":5581.592,"text":"我們請請委員 我要請委員長嗎謝謝主席 有請委員長我們請委員長"},{"start":5592.83,"end":5597.712,"text":"林昭薇早安早安委員長好有關監察院去年在12月5號對喬爾會有一個糾正案是針對在駐聖保羅辦事處的一個女員工遭到張姓主任的性騷擾的案件"},{"start":5610.277,"end":5619.383,"text":"處理的流程對陳情人這些接年有一些不利的處分所做的糾正案那問題是本席想對委員長說你們僑委會針對這個性騷擾案的處理還有整個調查的過程還是有一點疑問所以我想要一併等一下一起請教委員長就是因為受害人似乎是前年的時候六月的時候才向你揭發這個案件後來據說是委員長你親自處理的"},{"start":5636.815,"end":5639.558,"text":"然後那一年的時候那時候6月14號的時候這個歐姓的女員工向你揭發這件事情的時候請問你有做了些什麼事情還有當時駐聖保羅辦事處的僑委會然後在委員長你知道這件事情的時候究竟在你知道這件事情之前他們到底是不是已經知道有這個性騷擾案了呢"},{"start":5660.879,"end":5663.041,"text":"然後為什麼委員長你知道之後然後沒有做出性平法來做一個啟動的那個調查的程序然後也沒有採取任何的糾正還有補救的措施然後只有說口頭上說啊雙方啊只要"},{"start":5676.15,"end":5678.993,"text":"一個特定的距離還要調整業務互動方式就好了然後請問一下這個是符合性平法的處理的程序嗎這樣可以有辦法那個保護得了這個當事人嗎還有在媒體上有曾經說過這個案件不應該在僑界裡面有一些各自伸張互相放話的這些話"},{"start":5696.77,"end":5699.872,"text":"是因為怕僑界這樣是怕我們的僑委會這樣會加醜外揚嗎還是不敢伸張還是不敢依照性平法來處理呢還有因為我看了這整個的過程中然後從7月份在112年的7月份開始這個性騷擬員工的這個張姓的主任"},{"start":5717.12,"end":5726.866,"text":"就一直在放話然後導致歐姓這個女員工在7月到9月就是一旦的在追問還有一旦的在求助但是都是求助無門所以當時的僑委會竟然不理不睬所以我現在就是有很多問題想要請教委員長還有這一個女員工也在10月因為沒有辦法求助就是在10月12號的時候她提出了申訴然後結果她在當年她的年終考積就平等了"},{"start":5746.738,"end":5755.662,"text":"所以我們覺得很奇怪就是說他提出申訴的時間和僑委會對他的處分的時間是非常的接近然後是不是因為他提出了這個申訴所以連中考機才變平等呢而且聽說我看一下這整個情況是還有僑委會何時會發現他跟中資機關的駐外人員有一個聯繫往來的情況然後這個是不是讓大家又覺得說是不是因為他提出了申訴才開始"},{"start":5775.09,"end":5778.311,"text":"調查還有記過然後兩者這個有沒有關聯性還是你們認為覺得說這樣可以掩蓋事實然後故意把這一個被害員工安插罪名然後讓這一個職權就是利用你們職權來給他們報復還是給予這兩個這個員工第二個二次的罷免沒關係等一下你一邊說明我先把我的問題一次問清楚這樣然後還有這個性騷擾的加害者"},{"start":5801.616,"end":5812.98,"text":"只有簡單的寄了一個身戒一支還有年終烤雞一等但是提出生疏的受害者是烤雞是平等的而且是伎倆大過我覺得這樣是公平嗎而且上週五這個被害的女性員工服了大量的安眠藥緊急送醫"},{"start":5820.282,"end":5834.531,"text":"那僑委會對這個是不是有特別的去關心自己的員工呢還有說像這樣的事件整個經過監察院的提出了糾正那這樣的話委員長你認為這樣是覺得是當地的住處的處長是否有沒有失職的問題還是你認為說你自己有沒有失職的問題這我想請委員長可以剛才全部的疑問一併的說明"},{"start":5847.779,"end":5868.838,"text":"謝謝林委員召委的提問事實上我自己本身就是從事性別平等工作的一個運動者那我們這個中華民國很多的法律通過跟當時的立法我都是其中參與者我不會坐視任何有員工被欺負或者是遭受到騷擾不平等的對待"},{"start":5870.84,"end":5878.005,"text":"事實上在前年2023年的6月我第一次出訪到巴西前後總共是6月13到14號不到24小時的時間在我要離開的時候歐元跟我要了私LINE我就馬上給了他之後我離開到下一個國家打開手機之後有看到他傳來了一個訊息說他要提出申訴"},{"start":5896.778,"end":5911.224,"text":"因此我就跟他說那為了保障你的權利你要趕快把你所有針對你有利的資訊你要彙整起來包括你的一些相關工作紀錄排班出席表等等的東西因此我給了他好幾天時間"},{"start":5912.645,"end":5942.445,"text":"五天後呢他一直都沒有給我任何的新資訊因此我在原來又要飛下一個國度的時候臨時因為飛機班機有問題取消在當天我就想起來說這個五天了都還沒有接到資訊因此反而是我主動打電話給他說那這五天來你的資料準備好了沒有我想要趕快來了解看看怎麼幫你處理所以6月19號是我主動打電話給他他在接到我電話的時候事實上是在外面走路"},{"start":5942.845,"end":5960.998,"text":"而且他在我離開的隔天馬上就請休假了理由是去智利度假那事後我打電話給他說你現在背景音很吵是不是在智利他又說他不是所以事實上他請了去休假在智利卻是沒有去後來我知道說他還是留在巴西"},{"start":5962.099,"end":5965.801,"text":"無論如何他講完以後我馬上就他的具體資料開始進行了解那同時也做出了一個判斷跟處分就是說我認為張姓的這個主管確實他要有比較大的責任所以我就跟他說我要把你調回來你接不接受我的處分那張姓主任說"},{"start":5983.292,"end":6004.072,"text":"他同意被調回來所以在6月19號當天我已經分別告知兩個當事人的處分結果同時也要求他們在未來工作的職權上就不再有從屬關係因此在那個6月19號之後6月20號他們分別報回來的工作日子都是兩個禮拜兩個禮拜分別報回來"},{"start":6006.534,"end":6024.684,"text":"過往他都是要交給主任看過 主任才一起報回來我就是希望說在這個職權關係可以清楚釐清以後他不要再受到任何的干擾那所以當下我們的歐元是對我的處分他覺得非常的公正而且他非常滿意那我不曉得為什麼到後面我們進行這樣子的一個調處之後他們又"},{"start":6029.207,"end":6045.638,"text":"私下造成什麼樣的衝突那事實上七月八月都還好真正有一些狀況大概是在八月下旬那因為八月下旬在辦理一些活動的時候僑胞也有人來檢舉說這個我們美食展的場合居然出現了五個中國中資的高級幹部出現那這件事情也造成他們的一些摩擦後面的演變"},{"start":6054.884,"end":6079.679,"text":"過程當中呢我從出訪到回來我7月初回到台北以後我就將跟他開會的所有這個資料證據我讓他自己錄音讓他自己做會議記錄然後把資料送回來那我們交給人事單位要求他人事單位要列案那之後我也要求我們人事單位呢必須要定期的給他包括心理的協助包括如果他要正式的提出我們的性騷擾"},{"start":6081.52,"end":6087.366,"text":"到調查案我們也會受理所以每個月7月8月9月我們都持續的做這些事情他當時都說沒有問題他都說沒有要提出一直到9月底10月初他突然間向民代檢舉然後就說他怎樣怎樣"},{"start":6101.32,"end":6120.752,"text":"那可是各個很多的說法都是不符合公務人員的這個服務辦法的道理那其次就是說我們對於他考機的部分都是按照公務人員的服務辦法規定是因為我們不是我打的成績我反而沒有資格打成績本會的成績是由五個業務主管五個處還有加上這個代表處"},{"start":6125.274,"end":6151.921,"text":"或者辦事處的首長來共同幫他打成績所以是六個人的這個成績是總平均的事實上我們一年總共打三次有四個月一次兩次然後最後一次那他在具體要打到平等之前我們一定都要求各個首長一定要拿出他具體不利的事蹟到底是什麼所以事實上每一個首長都有把他具體不利的這個行為舉例出來比方說我們採購這個"},{"start":6162.118,"end":6162.742,"text":"所以在這邊要跟委員做說明"},{"start":6167.586,"end":6194.639,"text":"那後來僑胞因為他的案子曝光以後很多僑胞就自己開始來據名投書檢舉包括我們僑教中心的志工來據名檢舉說被歐元恐嚇說不能講不利於他的訊息還有一些僑務榮譽職也跟我們據名檢舉包括他有跟中資人員往來的一些照片資料提供給我們那我們在被具體檢舉的狀況之下我們不可能不調查"},{"start":6195.439,"end":6200.565,"text":"甚至有一些這個不當的請休假它事實上是有19天最後我們都從寬認定到最後只有認定5.5天的礦石案不然的話這個事情就更嚴重而已那我跟妳講 它現在服用大量的安眠藥緊急就它不是現在服用 沒有 它沒有當天我"},{"start":6214.02,"end":6225.542,"text":"一大早看到他馬上送急診的時候實際上我的了解是他當天晚上三點睡覺他可能把最後剩下兩顆安眠藥吃了媽媽不知道馬上把他送跟這件事情會有關係嗎而且第一時間我都派我們處長去醫院看他因為就在隔壁台大醫院我們也跟醫師詢問醫生說給他睡飽就好所以沒有做任何醫療處置所以你認為說跟這件事情是沒有關係他有精神上面的憂鬱症問題這個我們一直長期都有關心跟了解"},{"start":6242.686,"end":6251.581,"text":"這件事情我還是希望僑委會可以本於人道關懷合情合理還有和以下處理才是要處理這件事情的正道謝謝委員關心我們一定會照顧員工謝謝"},{"start":6267.08,"end":6274.747,"text":"蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在洪孟凱 洪孟凱 洪孟凱委員不在我們接下來請楊瓊瑜委員上台質詢主席 楊瓊瑜發言 邀請委員長有請委員長楊委員早安"},{"start":6290.134,"end":6307.003,"text":"委員長好,我們為了鼓勵我們的僑胞回國參加雙十國慶的活動,所以這個攜手旅行業推出了超過百條以上的旅遊路線,以提供我們的僑胞依照個人的喜好來做選擇報名。"},{"start":6309.384,"end":6333.784,"text":"那符合條件的僑胞每一個人最高他可以申請3000元的旅遊補助非常好那另外配合行政院我們0403的花蓮地震這個災後振興觀光方案那因此特別祭出加碼也就是僑胞你如果去參加花蓮縣或台東縣的旅遊的行程那你每一個人最高可以申請到3600塊的旅遊補助"},{"start":6336.406,"end":6362.039,"text":"這非常好大家一起協助但是我們看到你的統計到花蓮旅遊的僑胞僅只有百人那換句話說是佔我們僑胞回國的大概是2%那顯然在你的加碼當中並沒有發生這個成效出來所以要請教這一個方案如此的數字您的看法呢"},{"start":6363.923,"end":6378.27,"text":"我們對於去花東旅遊的這個僑胞遊客不是很多當然覺得有點可惜不過因為當時還有非常多交通阻礙或者是有還有餘震的一些客觀因素的影響那我們這一次113年總共有參加這個旅遊方案的人數是1485個那花東的部分是86人"},{"start":6388.874,"end":6415.274,"text":"那個數字偏低對數字偏低所以剛剛委員長你說的那個理由什麼交通中斷什麼這不是理由啊因為你人家還是過啊像我們各縣市喔大家不分喔委員這個是有一些心理的因素來來來我告訴你我們因為當主管的我們要去討論你的結果論你的數字是達不到你的理想嘛八十幾個一定不是你的理想嘛對不對是不是"},{"start":6415.894,"end":6436.883,"text":"我當然希望越多越好所以我們既然答案不是你的如意答案那我們應該要去檢討而不是只有去搪塞一些理由因為各縣市大家都一批一批去協助所以這個你來檢討因為我個人認為很好的政策啊大家來加油啊這個非常好讓國人的凝聚力可以更強"},{"start":6437.563,"end":6466.813,"text":"我們有問過僑胞說為什麼不選擇花東的路線你們去討論這個方案那本席再請教那也就是這個我們春節要到了很多的僑胞還是會回來我們知道回來回家過年是最棒最幸福的那你們是不是也有加碼有旅遊補助來促進我們國內的這個逛逛呢有沒有你有沒有想到這一點我們台灣人最重要的就是過年啊回家過年是最溫馨的啊"},{"start":6467.513,"end":6477.057,"text":"怎麼樣都要回家過年跟楊委員報告因為我們僑委會的經費跟預算很少很拮据那我們一年我們補助的原因是因為我們配合國家慶典所以把有限的預算就挪一部分出來鼓勵促進觀光因為在春節也是我們的目的"},{"start":6491.303,"end":6514.638,"text":"就是希望僑胞回到我們家裡頭來的時候春節我們不用促進僑胞都會自己回來讓他們會很感動你聽清楚本席的提問我們是說帶動整個觀光因為政府有引導就像我們現在國道客運那現在因為低迷一點所以交通部他們也提出我不漲價我還打六折請你們我們一起來交通減碳"},{"start":6516.419,"end":6530.447,"text":"這個想盡一切辦法這很好你就要想盡一切辦法怎麼樣讓我們的僑胞回來都能夠好的我們來多提供多提供你把方案給本席多提供一些訊息給僑胞對來都那個方案給本席"},{"start":6531.327,"end":6551.072,"text":"現在本席跟你討論,本席一直強調華語因為本席認為說語言會通,這是凝聚率最強的所以我們在海外的部分,華語文的這個市場拓展的一個機制本席要看到2020年你總共補助了84所台灣華語文學習中心"},{"start":6553.212,"end":6568.144,"text":"在歐美地區的營運包括了美國66所、英國3所、德國、法國、義大利都是2所奧地利、愛爾蘭、瑞典、匈牙利、捷克、比利時、荷蘭、波蘭以及西班牙各1所"},{"start":6568.985,"end":6586.173,"text":"那為什麼我要一個國家一個國家這樣念我就要讓全世界的人都知道我們在努力我們在你的國家裡頭我們也跟你契合在一起那所以要請問委員長未來你的拓展的計畫因為我們要跟世界接軌五大洲東南亞"},{"start":6587.472,"end":6599.98,"text":"澳洲或者是紐西蘭的這些國家我們密切關心密切那你來設置華語文學習中心一定會有效你有沒有這個規劃有跟委員報告我們第一期因為當時預算編列比較少所以只有鎖定在歐美國家"},{"start":6607.185,"end":6610.486,"text":"那我們現在已經要準備寫第二期計畫確實第二期計畫有保亞太區還有非歐美區的這些國家只要有可能性的我們都把它包含在內所以未來一定會包含澳洲、東南亞、紐西蘭、加拿大等等的國家都有可能會拓展在114年度裡頭來設置來拓展在115年開始115年開始,114年不見嘛"},{"start":6634.491,"end":6648.999,"text":"114年是在這個第一階段的計畫最後一年然後115年開始就會第二階段的第一年那後面會有五年 應該可以加強腳步啦是的 你在114年就趕快開始布建你115年開始 今年我們是做 今年會做準備計畫公告對啦 你要這麼做嘛 怎麼可能115年空掉一年做什麼呢是的 是的 沒有 今年是公告計畫我們是務必嘛 你預計什麼時候公告"},{"start":6660.906,"end":6687.704,"text":"我們現在因為送那個行政院國發會審核通過以後呢應該是在今年七月年中嘛七月之後我們就會公告年中之後去公告東南亞地區亞太地區非歐美區的我們都會公告非歐美區的澳洲啊紐西蘭都會有我們也希望以我們的華語文讓世界來接軌讓我們國家更"},{"start":6689.106,"end":6690.49,"text":"好的 謝謝楊委員謝謝楊瓊瑜委員那我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":7089.704,"end":7093.186,"text":"那繼續開會 那我們請王定義與趙偉上台質詢謝謝主席 麻煩委員長我們請委員長王趙偉早安 早最近其實事情蠻多 不過我要追蹤一件舊的案件你看一下曾經我們在"},{"start":7120.234,"end":7145.063,"text":"調查一件類似霸凌或者是性騷案的時候有傳出我們僑委會的人員協助中國人違法去入境我們的友邦這個來源你應該知道了因為我們的議事錄裡面有是這個案子到目前為止你可以說明一下調查的進度嗎"},{"start":7146.826,"end":7163.211,"text":"在2023年我們在巴西的某歐姓員工確實在當地有跟中資的高階人員結交好友"},{"start":7164.091,"end":7188.159,"text":"那你的結家好友的定義是什麼他除了這個相約師範去KTVPOP之外甚至他在演部開刀完還去住在他的家兩天在巴西待就聖保羅而已啊是所以聖保羅住處我們僑委會的人員是跟中國駐外人員過從甚密是"},{"start":7189.139,"end":7207.957,"text":"然後後來呢?然後這中間曾經他有計劃要去我們的邦交國旅行說中國那個官員?我們的部員跟中國的駐外人員一起相約說要出國去旅行"},{"start":7209.258,"end":7224.77,"text":"那要去邦交國因為只要持有中華民國護照就不用簽證那當時確實我們的在邦交國的僑胞有接到這一位員工的聯絡"},{"start":7226.451,"end":7233.913,"text":"那請他說可不可以開車到巴西這個邊境來接他們因為他要帶兩個朋友一起過去那僑胞就問他說兩個朋友是誰他說不是台灣人也不是台僑那他就問他說那是哪一國的他說是中國的可不可以請這個因為中國要到巴拉圭是需要辦理簽證的"},{"start":7255.419,"end":7274.584,"text":"那他說如果他因為可以帶著他們一起過去的話他就不需要再去辦正式簽證所以簽這中華民國護照就不用簽證了嗎當然不行所以他等於是在要求我們僑胞要去做違法的事情這有點像偷渡了"},{"start":7274.884,"end":7283.167,"text":"就是你沒有旅行文件然後過海關閃一下我們中華民國免簽的護照因為一般來說他之所以要求我們僑胞開過去是因為剛好我們邦交國附近的這個東方市呢很多僑胞在當地做生意那他們是在兩岸他們在兩邊"},{"start":7295.211,"end":7298.793,"text":"他們都有通行證所以他們通行證的車輛進出的時候就不需要檢查這個護照旅行文件所以他才會去拜託在巴拉圭的僑胞說開車過來接他們過去他只要坐上他的車可能在邊境他就不會被檢查對就過去了最後呢"},{"start":7318.823,"end":7346.098,"text":"最後這個旅行的案子後來沒有執行沒有執行那沒有執行這件事情本來也不會曝光可是因為歐案的這個所謂性騷擾案在媒體大量曝光以後就有這個當地的僑胞因此給我們這個資訊相關人就揭露了這件事情對我們才知道有這個事情那對這件事情僑委會怎麼處理"},{"start":7347.403,"end":7364.003,"text":"那因為除了這件事情以外還有就是在巴西當地的僑胞陸續都有在我們的民意信箱拒名兼舉就是同仁有跟中資的人員過程甚密交友"},{"start":7364.823,"end":7384.361,"text":"的情況 因此我們在性操勞案正式立案調查結果出來以後隔年因為檢舉的資料一直持續不斷進來因此我們最後也同樣立案調查我想謝謝委員長 其實這些事情都調查完畢了嘛是的當事人也有沒有承認"},{"start":7385.223,"end":7409.746,"text":"我們都有給當事人這個陳述的機會就這整個案子在2023、2024其實是原來有一些檢舉函在檢舉別人後來沒想到寫檢舉函的當事人反而被揭露了這件事情這是兩個獨立的案件一個是MeToo案件後來那個MeToo案件也經過調查完整你們是確認沒有進行懲處相關懲處那是另外一件事情"},{"start":7409.966,"end":7424.403,"text":"是的但這個案件其實比那個案件我認為更嚴重嚴重性比較大對因為有的是財道法律有的我們要考量說我們館內的機密是在他過從聖祕當中而且在這當中包括我們辦的美食展從來沒有過中國的"},{"start":7427.046,"end":7452.777,"text":"中資高階的人參加或者知道我們的活動居然在當年度的八月由這個歐元所負責的這個案子居然出現了五個中國高階的人員出現因此在橋界也引起划然所以這個案子我們也是立案調查我今天為什麼要特別問這件事情這不能只有划然而已這一位歐元歐姓的我們橋委會的駐外人員他跟中共"},{"start":7454.117,"end":7464.404,"text":"當地的官員互動這麼緊密甚至於出現我們國家跟僑胞辦的活動中國找到管道滲透進來而且剛好就他辦的"},{"start":7465.826,"end":7486.711,"text":"這裡面有沒有洩漏國防機密以外的罪這是一個法律問題第二個利用他擔任我們僑委會官員的身份他會遭到我們僑胞嘛他等於是拉著我們僑胞去幫中共的官員進到我們邦交國巴拉圭雖然因為僑胞警覺性高沒有去執行算未遂犯"},{"start":7487.731,"end":7503.044,"text":"但是這個行為在觀念上毫無國家安全外交人員該有的基本的界限沒有第二個其實是目無法際他在幫助中國的官員偷渡過去萬一偷渡成功然後這個僑胞沒空不載他回來"},{"start":7504.165,"end":7532.17,"text":"那兩個官員是怎樣 準備滯留在巴拉圭被逮捕會引起國際事件 那個事件如果發生巴拉圭逮捕了中國外交人員 非法入境然後一作證說 沒有 是中華民國台灣幫我進來的這兩位是中資人員 你是中資的幹部就中國那邊的 那一旦非法入境被巴拉圭逮捕的話 他作證講實話是確實會引起國際事件 沒錯是中華民國的外交人員幫我偷渡進來的"},{"start":7533.972,"end":7546.536,"text":"這是很嚴峻這個其實對我們國家聲譽跟各方面影響你們有沒有移送相關單位以法律的成本我們做了行政調查之後我們正式立案做行政調查之後這是為什麼觸犯了國家安全的這條界線我們記憶大過的原因"},{"start":7551.477,"end":7557.219,"text":"那有沒有移請司法相關的資料目前還沒有移送因為相關的資料我們也有請示外交部以及陸委會針對說與中資的人員往來的這個相關的定義那後續因為我們還在打委員長"},{"start":7570.455,"end":7597.962,"text":"第一個是因為他還在提在審當中所以我們未來一定會做行政但是他已經在聯繫我們台灣在巴拉圭的橋嶺過界到巴西在這兩個沒有旅行證件的中國人偷渡的方式要進入巴拉圭但沒有成功這是一個法律案件他辦的活動跟中方的人員不管叫中資人員或中方的駐地人員"},{"start":7598.742,"end":7627.582,"text":"互動緊密之後他們出現在我們國家的活動裡面這一塊有沒有洩密的部分我建議就是僑委會99.99的人大家入力從功 謹守分際你不能因為有一個這樣的行為就大家被質疑所以我認為標準的做法就是疫情事發檢調你們去查沒有事還他清白他就是行政違規有事該法辦就法辦否則駐外人員天高皇帝遠他剛才那種事情都敢做"},{"start":7628.562,"end":7654.244,"text":"根據墨菲定律我都懷疑不是第一次要不然他怎麼想出這個方法搞不好有成功過我們不知道這個要讓調查單位調查好不好我是建議這樣處理那這一個案子我為什麼等一段時間才來追蹤就是等你們所有行政程序走完了我們也不要冤枉人我名字我也不揭露出來請你們依法辦理這樣好不好好的謝謝委員關心好謝謝謝謝王定宇召委委員長請回"},{"start":7660.146,"end":7664.988,"text":"鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在接下來我們請林楚瑩委員上台質詢謝謝主席 邀請我們 呃 徐嘉勛徐 呵呵 徐曉武委員長 秦委員長"},{"start":7684.229,"end":7708.475,"text":"林委員你好好 這個稱呼委員長總是這個不太講得出口因為平常我們其實這個名稱比較少對 而且我認識很久了我想前面應該有委員都有特別問到就是有關於洛杉磯加州大火的這個部分因為其實這個應該是美國在因為其實美國啦其他地區常常這種野火狂燒的狀況"},{"start":7710.695,"end":7726.699,"text":"不生沒舉大概就跟我們台灣發生颱風的時候有但是這一次會特別引發注目是因為它是在南加州耶其實我們大概僑民最多的地區尤其是我看了一下這個Google Map的話我們洛杉磯的華僑教文服務中心距離大火只有9英里喔"},{"start":7727.179,"end":7743.373,"text":"那麼目前整體的僑委會的對外營運的狀況有沒有受到影響那我知道前面有委員問到了有沒有提供一些什麼協助所以整體來說這一場野火狂燒那麼對我們在海外尤其是在加州的服務上面會有影響嗎"},{"start":7744.955,"end":7750.721,"text":"我們在南加州的部分洛杉磯的大火確實是在比較多華人區的地方但目前為止我們有具體掌握有災損的僑民沒有人身的傷亡"},{"start":7761.974,"end":7776.246,"text":"有大概八戶是確實汽車房舍等的燒毀還有個人私人旅行文件等等都是複製一具那我們都有在密切的關注就是說因為到現在風向都還在轉移當中所以火可能還會延燒那我們也希望說這個大火可以盡快早日平息那就我們橋團的部分有跟我們橋教中心密切聯繫知道說現在因為很多人被預先撤離或者已經撤離好久的"},{"start":7789.898,"end":7813.011,"text":"那這些人的安置計畫我們也都有一些僑團在提供協助好 那麼因為我如果看Google Map的話是距離我們的洛杉磯華僑文教服務中心9英里啦當然我不知道這個9英里的距離對於現在的風勢或火力上面會不會受到影響應該不會 因為15公里的範圍很大如果燒到我們這邊大概洛杉磯就全部可能十分之九燒完了"},{"start":7813.251,"end":7833.781,"text":"所以包括相關的通訊或者是服務的部分就不會有受到影響可以能夠維持至少讓我們在洛杉磯的僑民朋友或者是旅外的台灣人都還是有機會可以做一個正常的通訊聯繫有 目前我們所在的地方還有幾個重要僑團的據點他們都沒有受到任何影響"},{"start":7834.801,"end":7839.788,"text":"那麼這個部分的話也要請我們委員長我們隨時會update資訊是沒錯因為我們可以看到齁這次其實連台灣都關心是因為幾個剛好知名的Youtuber啊他們也都好住在這個區域裡面他們都把親身經歷告訴我們了那麼"},{"start":7850.643,"end":7865.728,"text":"也因為這個樣子所以我們會更加的了解所以其實網路是相對的重要的那麼本席其實一直都在關心就是我們的網路服務等等那像上一次我質詢之後其實我們就做了一些改版然後也更友善的來應對就是我們新生代的僑親這個部分真的要給僑委會一個讚就是在這個過程當中你們其實要處理的事情很多啦但是能夠有一些進步但是就是這樣委員"},{"start":7879.333,"end":7903.652,"text":"之所以是身為委員就是因為我們要對於行政單位做一些監督本席又特別找到這個英文網站沒有更新之外這個不懂的中文的這個是不是就會被丟包而且好友居然加不進去這個都是小事但是我都很希望在網站的建制跟設計的時候使用要站在使用者的角度我們除了建制之外是不是可以能夠"},{"start":7904.753,"end":7914.023,"text":"有機會就是說自己也去用一下那這個就是一個小小的部分本席再提出來我相信回去應該馬上就會改進就是你按中文加好友沒問題可是英文的加好友加不進去而且是什麼是好友滿了不能加怎麼會這樣子咧"},{"start":7924.153,"end":7933.281,"text":"我知道啦 這個像本席本席的LINE也是好友滿的不能加這個是不是有什麼操作上或設定上的問題就請委員長回去的時候持續來瞭解一下好 我們再來調查看看另外最後一個這個部分也是這樣就是本席現在因為參加一些僑委會或是台商的活動有機會更認識我們海外僑親的一帶"},{"start":7946.673,"end":7966.581,"text":"那麼我也知道僑委會在有關於青年海外青年大使的部分也持續在做陪不論是互動或者是培育或者是說跟他們一起來做連結這個部分本席也要高度的肯定但是在做完這些活動之後有沒有其他更多的延續"},{"start":7967.461,"end":7989.442,"text":"比如在這裡我接觸到一些他們都是海外的二代那麼他們都是參加了活動之後更認同我們自己的國家中華民國可是他們常常有一種想法是做完活動之後他們能夠跟僑委會更多的連結是什麼那是不是可以更有機會協助來做一些僑務活動顯然他們很願意來當年輕的大使"},{"start":7992.785,"end":8006.793,"text":"可是好像活動完了就解散然後包括現在又有一個senior的FASCAL的培育那跟原本的又有什麼樣的不一樣在這裡就是不知道我來跟委員說明一下這個FASCAL"},{"start":8008.854,"end":8029.233,"text":"是青年文化大使那是指17歲以下的這些高中生那他們是經過好幾個學期持續性的在週末參加這些活動那一旦有橋界重大的一些活動他們都會出來當志工這是第一個那Senior Fasca是指說他18歲以後"},{"start":8030.014,"end":8036.096,"text":"他已經畢業高中畢業然後到各地去讀書或工作的這些人我們覺得我們培養了那麼多人六七千人如果沒有再把他們reunion是很可惜所以我們兩年前就開始說把這些以前被培訓過的他們還有心願意回來的我們就把這些年輕人再找回來然後也依著他們的專業還有他們的這個生命的career的狀態來分門別類"},{"start":8057.301,"end":8063.563,"text":"做一些不同的專案規劃那有一些很熱心的就回來變成是我們FASCA的導師或者是輔導員那或者我們在做一些這個職涯的這個專案的時候呢我們也會讓這些Senior FASCA的人呢能夠參與因為他很多人剛好還在讀大學或者大學即將要畢業或者剛剛出社會他想要去創業所以我們把這一群Senior FASCA的呢在"},{"start":8085.209,"end":8109.878,"text":"更進一步培養是希望他們有朝一日他們會變成是我們僑團的最中間力量那未來我們很多的僑社都要交給他們那我相信這一群人是最有使命感然後對台灣的認同也是最高的我非常認同徐委員長的這一段話因為最近跟他們接觸之後就會發現說他們常常會提到他們在海外的時候他們感受到像以色列他們是如何"},{"start":8110.518,"end":8117.08,"text":"透過他們在海外的一些第二代第三代把國家的狀況或面臨的問題他們成為這個遍佈全世界的這樣的一個宣傳大使所以回來的時候他們也會特別一直跟我們討論說如果可以的話他們希望從僑委會這邊為一個據點可以幫台灣做外交那麼"},{"start":8132.526,"end":8135.61,"text":"我蠻期待就是說接下來包括僑委會這裡如何來跟我們的海外的青年文化大使來做一個整合那麼我也希望說在2025年的時候這些預算當中也可以有更多是在這裡跟他們做一些交流"},{"start":8149.188,"end":8162.257,"text":"會 我們會集中能量讓下一代的所以我們今年整體總和目標叫做Move to Next Generation那因為大部分的第二第三代他們都已經是當地國的主流包括他們的人脈同學同事他們的思想教育等等那這些人會變成是我們很好的橋樑我們在各國就會未來有很強的一批尖兵在海外對我們在第一線打拚好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":8179.188,"end":8194.956,"text":"辛苦謝謝林楚瑩委員委員長請回沈博洋委員 沈博洋 沈博洋委員不在接下來我們請葉元之委員上台質詢委員長好 親自委員長"},{"start":8208.131,"end":8209.472,"text":"也請委員長葉委員你好委員長好其實上次我有反映那個僑胞在海外他們要回來讀書的有遇到那個教育部跟僑友會窗口的問題我不知道委員長後來有沒有去解決這件事情有 我們昨天傍晚才跟教育部又再開會都在做橫向的協調"},{"start":8233.943,"end":8248.297,"text":"對 因為很常有僑胞反應這件事情的原因是因為不管是新南向專班或是產西專班僑員會都是主要在對僑胞窗口嘛但是因為那些學生回來之後又歸教育部管啦對在這個銜接上面他們常常覺得很困擾"},{"start":8248.817,"end":8265.684,"text":"主要是國內的學校是教育部同管但是學生本身都來自海外沒錯沒錯所以這個部分可能要請那個委員長多費一點心啦因為那些學生有時候他們也許他們從小都是在海外長大嘛回台灣來講的話他們一個陌生環境是對對對好那我現在想來問一下僑委會這個3加4僑生專班的這個成效的問題"},{"start":8270.686,"end":8284.392,"text":"因為我們當然這個三家四僑生專班利益良善我們是希望說能夠把海外一些優秀人來台灣讀書之後呢可以留在台灣嘛然後增加我們的勞動人口可是我們可以看到就是它的那個數據的表現譬如說在"},{"start":8288.852,"end":8304.676,"text":"這個112年的產息專班的畢業率才25.51大概四分之一左右很低然後留台率就是說他最後留在台灣才24.54不知道說委員長你滿意這樣的一個表現我非常不滿意但是我也有去了解早期從103年10年前的這一批入學當時的人數並不是很多"},{"start":8311.578,"end":8316.299,"text":"因為當時我們沒有設定比較清楚的這些標準包括說進來讀書的學生年齡可能是很大了你現在剛剛12歲以下嘛對對對當時都是還有將近30歲的也進來讀所以他們很快又認識男女朋友又去結婚生孩子然後就很容易就輟學然後或者因為家庭的因素經濟的因素就離開所以我們有檢討了前幾年因為這都是開辦初期"},{"start":8336.024,"end":8359.685,"text":"所以開辦初期的這些狀況因為整個方案也不成熟然後誘因也不多然後加上說因為沒有做好這個年齡的管制所以後面我們現在都有做很好的一些規劃那您預期說透過改善之後大概您預期流台率會到多少未來三年這個流台率跟畢業率我們第一個要求畢業率包括說從這個技高端高職轉接這個科技大學"},{"start":8365.269,"end":8377.766,"text":"畢業率跟銜接率一定要夠高如果沒有達到我們的標準標準是多少標準我們希望能夠達到八成到九成對 八成到九成然後再讀四年留下來我們希望至少畢業率要到九成畢業率要到九成對 畢業率要到九成因為我們現在逐漸的"},{"start":8380.869,"end":8400.894,"text":"我要加碼給很多這個蘿蔔所以他要能夠達到而且他們很需要這些學生我也給他師資的協助也給他很多方案的協助那所以學校我相信未來會很認真的來辦所以你的意思是說大概希望預計三年後他們的畢業率可以到九成可以那留台率的話就看產學媒合的狀況就會提高而且我們兩年前開始真的也開辦僑生就業博覽會因為"},{"start":8408.676,"end":8421.783,"text":"這個都是之前的之前因為沒有這些配套措施所以只有單一方案第一個就不容易招生所以人數都很少第二個因為年齡沒有限制他很容易到二三十歲他去結婚了就離開了我懂我懂這剛剛有講過所以你的目標還"},{"start":8424.404,"end":8447.85,"text":"定的還蠻高的啦希望你要努力達成那有海外的那個僑領建議啦有些學生回來讀書的時候因為他中文不好所以他就對這個課程失去興趣也造成他的離開學校啦所以我們昨天特別跟有人建議說是不是說可以回來之後先讀一年中文然後再銜接這個三加四你覺得有可能嗎"},{"start":8448.63,"end":8458.898,"text":"現在是這樣我們有昨天跟教育部開會確實有幾個配套方案我們第一個就是會廣泛在海外設立這個基地開辦這個華語密集班華語研習營你說等他們再回來幾天"},{"start":8465.602,"end":8484.83,"text":"申請前我們就讓他先有機會上華語那華語的程度提到一個程度以後如果被我們錄取了來到台灣前三個月前一個學期全部都要學華語所以我們有加強班昨天就是在跟教育部開會協調說可不可以要求第一個學期這個華語的課程呢"},{"start":8488.251,"end":8497.817,"text":"比例加重然後其他的課程相對的延到後面因為我還有別的問題希望喬委會加油啦因為委員長我印象中好像之前你也都在喬委會嘛對那為什麼這些問題你之前都沒發現你當委員長才發現是前一個委員長的問題是不是"},{"start":8507.523,"end":8524.465,"text":"不是 因為之前我業館的範圍不包括喬教生 喬生不包括 了解了解原來分這麼細我們分得很清楚 對那之前的委員長可能就有點失職了我不知道好 沒關係第二個問題也是一樣因為我們現在喬委會也有在海外設一個台灣華語文學"},{"start":8525.686,"end":8550.838,"text":"台灣華語文的學習中心嘛那時候我還有看過報導說這是要對抗那個中國的孔子學院我們層次沒有到這麼低我們有更高的戰略目標當然啦當然啦戰略目標更高啦但是要讓海外不管是台灣人也好就是國際人士都一樣嘛但問題是這個成效也是一樣喔我提出來一個隨便舉一個成效就好了如果你要對"},{"start":8552.058,"end":8577.848,"text":"海外的人士讓他們學習華語引起他們興趣的話那宣傳管道要夠嘛可是我們看到你們的很多影片點閱率都很低像有的兩百多有的四十有的三十有的七十那如果對外宣傳的點閱率那麼低的話好像就達不太到效果那這個部分有什麼改善計畫嗎有些這個都不是我們官方製造的就是說各個我當然知道嘛這是自然流量嘛但是我們現在講就是自然流量太低"},{"start":8578.328,"end":8580.129,"text":"因為我們都不會去下廣告然後就是當地華語文中心的學員他們自己拖的這就是問題了因為我們錢真的很少第一個你有目標嘛你的目標就是說要讓海外的國際人士來學中文我們還有更高的戰略目標"},{"start":8598.744,"end":8608.452,"text":"對那結果我們目標遠大但是我們的執行很渺小就計時委員我們需要的是經費因為如果我們經費不提升我們的這個這個應該是經費也沒有說不夠啦看你怎麼運用沒有看你怎麼運用啦像有一些"},{"start":8614.156,"end":8628.332,"text":"比如說網紅他內容很好他不需要廣告預算所以我們今年又開始點閱率也很高所以你不能把點閱率的少直接把它歸因維美內容還是王道我知道委員的意思所以你還要透過很多管道去宣傳所以目標遠大"},{"start":8629.173,"end":8651.271,"text":"就要有執行力啦好不好好的請委員也多支持我們的預算我們都沒有刪你預算啊但是你要努力啊你不能說因為我沒有努力都歸咎於沒有錢啊這樣回答也不是很我們會很努力對有限的預算我們會繼續持續的來推進有限的預算是在太偏低是幾十太偏低了好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝葉雲芝委員委員長請回"},{"start":8661.892,"end":8676.222,"text":"已登記質詢的委員除了不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有沈伯陽委員馬文君委員黃仁委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以"},{"start":8679.404,"end":8694.481,"text":"書面與兩週內答覆委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者疫情相關單位與書面兩週內提供委員另約定期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束 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這個稱呼委員長總是這個不太講得出口因為平常我們其實這個名稱比較少對 而且我認識很久了我想前面應該有委員都有特別問到就是有關於洛杉磯加州大火的這個部分因為其實這個應該是美國在因為其實美國啦其他地區常常這種野火狂燒的狀況"},{"start":31.033,"end":47.041,"text":"不生沒舉大概就跟我們台灣發生颱風的時候有但是這一次會特別引發注目是因為它是在南加州耶其實我們大概僑民最多的地區尤其是我看了一下這個Google Map的話我們洛杉磯的華僑教文服務中心距離大火只有9英里喔"},{"start":47.521,"end":63.711,"text":"那麼目前整體的僑委會的對外營運的狀況有沒有受到影響那我知道前面有委員問到了有沒有提供一些什麼協助所以整體來說這一場野火狂燒那麼對我們在海外尤其是在加州的服務上面會有影響嗎"},{"start":65.292,"end":75.303,"text":"我們在南加州的部分呢洛杉磯的這個大火確實是在比較多華人區的地方但目前為止我們有具體掌握有災損的僑民沒有人身的傷亡但是有"},{"start":82.31,"end":96.536,"text":"有大概八戶是確實汽車房舍等的燒毀還有個人私人旅行文件等等都是付之一炬那我們都有在密切的關注就是說因為到現在風向都還在轉移當中所以火可能還會延燒那我們也希望說這個大火可以盡快早日平息那就我們橋團的部分有跟我們橋教中心密切聯繫知道說現在因為很多人被預先撤離或者已經撤離好久的"},{"start":110.242,"end":133.372,"text":"那這些人的安置計畫我們也都有一些僑團在提供協助好 那麼因為我如果看Google Map的話是距離我們的洛杉磯華僑文教服務中心9英里啦當然我不知道這個9英里的距離對於現在的風勢或火力上面會不會受到影響應該不會 因為15公里的範圍很大如果燒到我們這邊大概洛杉磯就全部可能十分之九燒完了"},{"start":133.592,"end":154.12,"text":"所以包括相關的通訊或者是服務的部分就不會有受到影響可以能夠維持至少讓我們在洛杉磯的僑民朋友或者是旅外的台灣人都還是有機會可以做一個正常的通訊聯繫目前我們所在的地方還有幾個重要僑團的據點他們都沒有受到任何影響"},{"start":155.14,"end":160.087,"text":"那麼這個部分的話也要請我們委員長我們隨時會update資訊是沒錯因為我們可以看到齁這次其實連台灣都關心是因為幾個剛好知名的Youtuber啊他們也都好住在這個區域裡面他們都把親身經歷告訴我們了那麼"},{"start":171.002,"end":186.074,"text":"也因為這個樣子所以我們會更加的了解所以其實網路是相對的重要的那麼本席其實一直都在關心就是我們的網路服務等等那像上一次我質詢之後其實我們就做了一些改版然後也更友善的來應對就是我們新生代的僑親這個部分真的要給僑委會一個讚就是在這個過程當中你們其實要處理的事情很多啦但是能夠有一些進步但是就是這樣"},{"start":198.704,"end":223.994,"text":"委員之所以是身為委員就是因為我們要對於行政單位做一些監督本席又特別找到這個英文網站沒有更新之外這個不懂的中文的這個是不是就會被丟包而且好友居然加不進去這個都是小事但是我都很希望在網站的建制跟設計的時候使用要站在使用者的角度我們除了建制之外是不是可以能夠"},{"start":225.094,"end":234.364,"text":"有機會就是說自己也去用一下那這個就是一個小小的部分本席再提出來我相信回去應該馬上就會改進就是你按中文加好友沒問題可是英文的加好友加不進去而且是什麼是好友滿了不能加怎麼會這樣子咧"},{"start":244.514,"end":253.981,"text":"我知道啦 這個像本席本席的LINE也是好友滿的不能加這個是不是有什麼操作上或設定上的問題就請委員長回去的時候持續來瞭解一下好 我們再來調查看看另外最後一個這個部分也是這樣就是本席現在因為參加一些僑委會或是台商的活動有機會更認識我們海外僑親的一帶"},{"start":267.031,"end":286.922,"text":"那麼我也知道僑委會在有關於海外青年大使的部分也持續在做不論是互動或者是培育或者是說跟他們一起來做連結這個部分本席也要高度的肯定但是在做完這些活動之後有沒有其他更多的延續"},{"start":287.802,"end":309.783,"text":"比如在這裡我接觸到一些他們都是海外的二代那麼他們都是參加了活動之後更認同我們自己的國家中華民國可是他們常常有一種想法是做完活動之後他們能夠跟僑委會更多的連結是什麼那是不是可以更有機會協助來做一些僑務活動顯然他們很願意來當年輕的大使"},{"start":313.146,"end":327.134,"text":"可是好像活動完了就解散然後包括現在又有一個senior的FASCAL的培育那跟原本的又有什麼樣的不一樣在這裡就是不知道我來跟委員說明一下這個FASCAL"},{"start":329.195,"end":349.572,"text":"是青年文化大使那是指17歲以下的這些高中生那他們是經過好幾個學期持續性的在週末參加這些活動那一旦有橋界重大的一些活動他們都會出來當志工這是第一個那Senior Fasca是指說他18歲以後"},{"start":350.353,"end":356.434,"text":"他已經畢業高中畢業然後到各地去讀書或工作的這些人我們覺得我們培養了那麼多人六七千人如果沒有再把他們reunion是很可惜所以我們兩年前就開始說把這些以前被培訓過的他們還有心願意回來的我們就把這些年輕人再找回來然後也依著他們的專業還有他們的這個生命的career的狀態來分門別類"},{"start":377.659,"end":382.361,"text":"做一些不同的專案規劃那有一些很熱心的就回來變成是我們FASCA的導師或者是輔導員那或者我們在做一些這個職涯的這個專案的時候呢我們也會讓這些Segno FASCA的人呢能夠參與因為他很多人剛好還在讀大學"},{"start":397.808,"end":418.608,"text":"或者大學即將要畢業或者剛剛出社會他想要去創業所以我們把這一群Senior Fasca的在更進一步培養是希望他們有朝一日他們會變成是我們僑團的最中間力量那未來我們很多的僑社都要交給他們那我相信這一群人是最有使命感然後對台灣的認同也是最高的"},{"start":419.168,"end":423.17,"text":"我非常認同許委員講的這一段話啦因為最近跟他們接觸之後就會發現說他們常常會提到他們在海外的時候他們感受到像以色列他們是如何透過他們在海外的一些第二代第三代把國家的狀況或面臨的問題他們成為這個遍佈全世界的這樣的一個宣傳大使"},{"start":443.579,"end":447.22,"text":"所以回來的時候他們也會特別一直跟我們討論說如果可以的話他們希望從僑委會這邊為一個據點可以幫台灣做外交那麼我蠻期待就是說接下來包括僑委會這裡如何來跟我們的海外的青年文化大使來做一個整合那麼我也希望說在2025年的時候這些預算當中也可以有更多是在這裡跟他們做一些交流"},{"start":469.544,"end":482.713,"text":"會 我們會集中能量讓下一代的所以我們今年整體總和目標叫做Move to Next Generation那因為大部分的第二第三代他們都已經是當地國的主流包括他們的人脈同學同事他們的思想教育等等那這些人會變成是我們很好的橋樑我們在各國就會未來有很強的一批尖兵在海外對我們帶第一線打拚好 謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":499.544,"end":501.647,"text":"辛苦謝謝林楚瑩委員委員長請回沈博洋委員沈博洋"}]}},{"id":"158886","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158886","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1af749950f507674a41cb09e2058dd4a024204766f4a2623bdebd2ef2fddbaddb65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:20:29 - 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我們麻煩王富密以及楊廳長"},{"start":17.583,"end":38.244,"text":"我先請教兩位就延續剛剛黃國昌委員的問題啦因為如果跟黃國昌委員的問題重複的那我就不會再問那我先請教一下兩位那到底到現在為止有沒有任何一個機關或是個人對於這一次"},{"start":39.632,"end":47.23,"text":"憲法訴訟法的部分有提起說要預防性的權力救濟是否有人有向司法院提了"},{"start":49.195,"end":70.312,"text":"跟委員說明 如果說針對的是暫時處分因為根據司法院的報告我們把預防性的權利救濟跟暫時權利救濟是分開處理的那如果是以目前所謂預防性權利救濟假如是定位在準用行政訴訟法或民事訴訟法的將來給付之數的話就我的了解目前是沒有"},{"start":70.492,"end":93.541,"text":"那你剛說的另外一個呢那如果是暫時處分的話剛剛我回答黃委員的部分就是說目前針對限訴法申請暫時處分的有是誰我今天早上來的時候得到的數據是人民有申請然後剛剛就在開會期間然後我們書記廳的同仁有傳訊給我我們今天有收到民進黨委員具狀申請法規範憲法審查以及暫時處分"},{"start":95.342,"end":113.357,"text":"好 那所以我們現在可以了解一下就是說確實民進黨委員以及有人民已經向司法院提起暫時處分就限訴法的部分 這個沒有問題了嘛 我們就確認下來好 那我想請問一下喔 那憲法訴訟法它的限訴法的主管機關到底是誰啊"},{"start":116.073,"end":132.228,"text":"請問 法規主管局官司司法院那應該不是行政院嘛 我沒有講錯嘛不是行政院嘛但是行政院卻對這次憲法訴訟法非常的反彈啦所以我想說這個大家也都知道啦那當然也有政委提出一些"},{"start":133.669,"end":158.882,"text":"很特殊的法律見解 希望怎麼做 那我們都予以尊重因為我是尊重學者 我也尊重念法律法律就同一法律事件 本來就是有各式各樣的學說所以如果他希望採極端的少數說 我們也予以尊重因為有一些大學的老師 他的學說常常都是極端的少數說那我們都會尊重這些想法但是在實務上面可不可以適用 這又是另外一件事情"},{"start":159.742,"end":173.65,"text":"那我想請教一下 如果行政院不是限訴法的主管機關那行政院可不可以對限訴法來申請釋憲或是申請那個暫時處分或是預防性的權利救濟 請教一下"},{"start":175.445,"end":185.855,"text":"各位說明那因為在憲法上面負議權是專屬於行政院那所以這個部分我們尊重行政院他行使負議權不是負議權我剛不是說負議權我剛說對限訴法提起釋憲那請問一下可以嗎"},{"start":190.76,"end":210.454,"text":"這個部分就是國家最高機關對於法規範這個部分如果他在行使職權的時候他認為法律有違憲的部分然後按照我們限訴法的規定因為行政院統署國家最高機關那他當然可以提議申請至於申請以後受不受理那當然是由憲法法庭決定好 謝謝 就是"},{"start":210.914,"end":236.85,"text":"所以你剛剛也沒有回答到問題就是他可以申請但是受不受理是現在法庭決定這答案是這樣那好 我也講一下這一次呢其實很明確的嘛就是大法官總額就15人嘛那剛剛你們有回答到由總統提名然後立法院來這邊來審核嘛對不對然後如果不足人數的話總統要在兩個月內補題人數那因為我一直認為說這跟行政"},{"start":237.791,"end":262.704,"text":"院的職權實在也沒有什麼特別的關係啦那我反而覺得比較奇怪的就是說那現在怠惰的好像是總統因為總統要趕快提啊你被立法院否決的時候總統怎麼不趕快提那一直不提所以才會卡在那裡所以我到現在來看癱瘓憲法法庭的是總統因為憲訴法如果這次過了依照新修正的來看"},{"start":263.604,"end":291.299,"text":"那你目前人數不夠 所以總統就要趕快提嘛我們也希望趕快補足到最低10人的門檻那過了以後就可以開始審理嘛可是總統一直不提 然後又僵在那裡然後又要提一個什麼 又有人在政委提到說預防性的權力救濟我覺得那個權力的力是哪一個字 待會我再給你們看那我想請問一下如果是上位生效的法律啊那這個判決"},{"start":293.546,"end":316.338,"text":"判決違憲要讓他失效 那這個暫時處分凍結他的效率我實在不太懂 既然還沒有生效的法律 那要怎麼樣認定要他失效呢 要怎麼樣處理 我不懂耶他有訴訟上的利益嗎 他根本都還沒有生效的法律那我們要暫時處分讓他不生效 我不太懂耶 我想麻煩廳長能夠解釋一下"},{"start":320.169,"end":346.356,"text":"公務員說明這個部分當然因為實際上如果是針對尚未生效的法律來申請釋憲那這個部分因為是已經細數的案件所以我們在這邊不方便說不方便說那過往的例子很簡單嘛585號 599號都有提過暫時處分但是那個都是對於生效的法律我想這廳長我沒有講錯吧對不對那如果是這樣子的話我真的不了解對於一個"},{"start":347.58,"end":376.241,"text":"如果對於生效的東西我們希望他不生效那當然我們提個暫時處分來維護我們的利益這個我可以理解但是對於一個尚未生效的法律我先預先這麼做說真的我真的沒有辦法理解大法官最後會怎麼認定如果他認定是准許的話我還真的很想拜讀一下這幾位大法官的大作當然啦 憲判八 憲判九已經讓我對於大法官的這麼偉大的論述我已經非常"},{"start":377.456,"end":402.741,"text":"非常崇拜這已經超過我能想像的啦那當然我們的論點在大法官的不同意見書裡面也有所以有時候人家說我們的見解跟最終宪判八或宪判九的邏輯不一樣我們就被罵法盲說我們是什麼反正就說我們法盲但是我想說各位去看一下不同意見書裡面的強法其實跟我們一樣那些不同意見書的大法官也是法盲嘛所以我還是要講"},{"start":405.502,"end":426.242,"text":"這個還沒有生效的法律 你要他去定一個暫時處分 然後不讓他效率停止適用嗎 還是怎麼樣我說真的 我還是想不出來這個邏輯要怎麼去推論那我再提一個 其實我覺得這樣子的搞法 其實變成是"},{"start":428.274,"end":445.456,"text":"而大法官好像是完全取代了立法權的地位了嘛那所以如果這樣搞下去是不是只要民進黨不想通過的法律我全部都來搞這一套不管他生效與否已經生效了那當然他又要搞就像上次那個"},{"start":446.57,"end":468.07,"text":"像法庭一樣他就來先不讓你運作那還沒有生效的他照樣要搞我覺得國家的法律制度是這樣我以為我以前念法律兩位都是我的學長以前我認為法律是長治久安我國最早的法律定制到現在已經破百年了嘛譬如說刑法民國三年就定了"},{"start":468.61,"end":496.441,"text":"那本來我們以為法律就是一個長治久安的東西大家要去遵守但是到這幾年來全部被玩弄所以我們的制度很多都毀掉了文官制度也毀掉了然後一些法律訴訟上面的觀念也都毀掉了立法的制度也毀掉了五權分立的制度也毀掉了然後到現在他還甚至立法院投票投書人不甘願然後來打架後來也打書人"},{"start":497.401,"end":523.439,"text":"投票投輸人 打架打輸人然後到最後是我棄守立法院這一塊我退居到二線來跟你玩大法官四線所以我自己來看政府的這套玩法其實是在短短幾年內摧毀百年的國家法律制度然後從上一次我覺得NCC主委那次NCC組織法我覺得最誇張百年來我國法治立法權給行政權的一個"},{"start":524.76,"end":553.157,"text":"施行日由行政院以命令定之百年來的這個東西沒有人會去挑戰這個東西因為這個是立法權的一個恩惠給行政權讓他在運作上面方便給他一個日出條款由行政院來訂立竟然可以在NCC這個小小的官位就把這個制度給毀掉百年的制度民進黨為了一個小小NCC的官位可以把這個日出條款的制度完全摧毀"},{"start":554.218,"end":565.869,"text":"就是我覺得我念法律我真的想到這個有時候晚上真的是會傷心到睡不著我本來以為一個法律制度百年以前人訂立出來這些東西"},{"start":567.099,"end":592.375,"text":"我們後代子孫就是享受當年的這個智慧成果我們好好的運行下去就沒想到可以在歷次的個案裡面一個一個把它破壞掉而且都是為了單一一個個案眼前的那個利益NCC主委 NCC組織法那就是一個非常非常難看的一件事情可以把給行政權一個彈性讓他可以用命令定之實行之這個東西都把它摧毀我覺得這"},{"start":594.076,"end":606.188,"text":"我覺得是瘋狂了啦這種執政的玩法已經到瘋狂那這一次也是啊你今天法律還沒有通過然後你今天就要搞一個戰時權力救濟或者是要搞一個"},{"start":607.659,"end":635.493,"text":"一些奇怪怪莫名其妙的方式因為這些東西都會成為案例將來也會成為判例一件一件都影響到將來我們的子子孫孫在面對這套法律的時候的問題嘛所以我想兩位也是跟我一樣司法官出身的那我這邊不叫你們回答我不讓你們回答因為你們回答其實是要求你們回答這個事其實我覺得對兩位也不好但是我想我們"},{"start":637.128,"end":645.343,"text":"都曾經做過偵查審判的工作看到現在政府這種玩弄法律的方式其實是很傷 我覺得我們市長人應該是覺得傷心啦"},{"start":646.621,"end":672.564,"text":"因為我剛剛講的法律它的可貴在於我們需要它長治久安而不是總是以一個小小的個案為了政黨或派系或個人的利益每一次都把法律完爛掉每一套運作百年運作幾十年的法律我就把它完爛掉然後搞到現在立法院將來所有的法律通過都不會再給行政權一個以命令定之"},{"start":674.005,"end":698.777,"text":"的這個彈性了你不覺得很悲哀嗎百年前人家認為這個有必要因為要讓行政權彈性的運用就因為一個小小NCC主委的位置可以把這個摧毀所以我說我自己在看國家在運作我是非常的難過這件事情因為我以前的老師像以前林三田老師因為他太太劉初之老師是我以前的導師"},{"start":700.68,"end":722.59,"text":"在廢除刑法100條等等的那些遊行我們都參加過我們也都認為因為這些東西要廢除掉才會讓台灣走向一個正常化的民主國家中華民國才能變成真正憲法上所說的民主共和國結果呢這幾年這樣玩越玩越爛我真的覺得難以想像啦就當年我們在奮鬥我們陪著這些"},{"start":723.738,"end":740.795,"text":"黨外人士民進黨人士或者是很多老師很多社會運動團體我們上街頭了那麼多次我們最後得到的是什麼一個政黨拼命的在摧毀我們的法律制度別的東西我不懂但是我法律念了幾十年我是一次比一次難過啦尤其是像這一次"},{"start":742.216,"end":756.609,"text":"如果這套搞法三讀通過施行的法律他也用就直接控制幾個大法官就把你認為違憲或甚至連生效都還沒生效的法律他也要搞一個大法官來幫你處理掉這個都是我覺得立法院幾乎可以廢掉了"},{"start":758.59,"end":776.443,"text":"要嘛以後叫大法官來列席說我們這條法律可不可以立 變這樣第二個就是說立完法律之後馬上送給大法官 請問大法官們你們認不認同 認同就生效 可以變這樣嗎那剛剛複密你講的權力分立的概念在這個制度下就蕩然無存"},{"start":778.867,"end":802.361,"text":"我還是不這麼認為啦我還是認為現在的這個做法已經完全在摧毀我國的法治制度而且一年一年因為每一次個案事件就一次的把它摧毀掉所以我跟各位報告為什麼這次大法官會卡關第一個原因我在這邊講話我絕對負全部的責任第一個原因的發生是因為柯建民總召不願意送院會排案"},{"start":803.564,"end":824.037,"text":"我想各位立委都很清楚他的理由是什麼因為當時國會改革法案在釋憲中所以他認為這個東西等釋憲完畢之後再來審查大法官的人士他用這個當理由然後他就是堅持不送案不送案到最後整個大法官人選送到立法院了但是就沒有辦法到院會去審查一直拖拖拖拖到最後"},{"start":825.487,"end":848.431,"text":"國會改革法案都釋憲完了 他還不送 搞到最後才送送了以後呢 就人選不OK啊不管國民黨 民眾黨 或民進黨都有覺得不OK的人選後來七位就都沒有過嘛那七位都沒有過的那一天開始總統可以隔天就再提一個新的名單出來啊但是總統都沒有提"},{"start":849.557,"end":870.188,"text":"結果民進黨那個造謠政黨或某些立委造謠習慣了就開始一直說國民黨民眾黨在癱瘓憲法法庭那我剛剛講到現在哪一個東西是我們在癱瘓因為你不把大法官人選送院會審查的是柯建民他不送院會審查就不能審查的結果"},{"start":871.584,"end":882.42,"text":"一直拖到然後來審查不過總統可以趕快提啊兩個月內就是隔天也可以提的意思嘛他也不提不提之後人數不夠結果現在就來罵說國民黨你們癱瘓憲法法庭這對還是不對啊這造謠習慣了嗎"},{"start":888.408,"end":908.101,"text":"所以我一直覺得很奇怪的一件事是說我從小要求自己要以誠信為基礎結果來立法院之後看不到大家都在騙人耶然後每個人騙完人之後第二天也是神清氣爽的跟大家聊天沒有人為自己說謊或講錯話被發現然後而覺得一絲一毫的慚愧這就是我國的立法院"},{"start":910.421,"end":936.829,"text":"我以前還沒進立法院的時候 我覺得每個立委看起來都覺得好大好厲害來這邊怎麼會那麼多人在說謊那麼多人在講錯話之後 然後也不用負責不用道歉然後第二天還可以非常精神抖擻的來我相信在法院在地檢署 法官檢察官如果幹了一個這個事情他第二天搞不好不敢來上班這我們司法人員對自己的嚴格要求 就在這裡完全看不到"},{"start":939.861,"end":965.219,"text":"因為時間關係我覺得有一些東西別人問過的我就不再問了所以我個人認為啦所謂的預防性的權力救濟已經不是民事訴訟法裡面那個例如說債務關係等等那種權力已經是力量的力 權力救濟因為他要救濟的是自己的執政權 統治權我看到的是這樣這個已經跟我們所知道的完全不一樣了"},{"start":966.004,"end":990.103,"text":"那如果說今天國人或民進黨委員一直覺得有人在癱瘓憲法法庭的話第一個要罵的是誰是總統賴清德為什麼你不趕快提嘛你趕快提人選讓我們審過兩個就可以運作了啊你為什麼不趕快提還有柯建民總召你當時為什麼要一直把我們的言當在那裡不讓我們送院會去審查大家一直叫你送院會結果你就是不送"},{"start":991.144,"end":998.842,"text":"要怪就怪這兩個人啦 不用怪其他人其他人就是認真的審核每一個人符不符合大法官的資格而已"},{"start":999.861,"end":1021.618,"text":"我看到的就是這樣所以憲法法律應該是國人來遵守而不是讓國人來操弄我今天看到大家都是在操弄憲法法律已經各式各樣的程序只會滿足他單一一次的需求例如NCC主委單一一次他希望變成萬年主委他就給你玩這一套這看起來其實很悲哀我也希望全國人民能夠聽懂我在講什麼"},{"start":1022.378,"end":1050.332,"text":"我一直希望把法律以最白話的方式告訴全國國民我一直努力在做這件事情我希望讓大家看清楚誰在說謊誰總是在說謊而且他們明明知道自己在說謊他們也知道我們知道他們在說謊但他們持續繼續說謊而且不當一回事在我看來這丟臉人格是完全毀滅掉而且最近這幾天又發生了很多事也是很明顯的翻車打臉被說謊被發現一樣也不當一回事"},{"start":1052.898,"end":1068.653,"text":"那個司法院你們的網站你們回去看你們在講大法官的時候有一個圖這個是你們網站的圖你們上面也寫十位啊至少要有八位啊連你們都這樣講其實大法官的人數為什麼在很多國家他有一個最低"},{"start":1069.608,"end":1098.104,"text":"人數的要求 我想請教一下兩位韓國的話 憲法法庭他召開要幾位大法官出席他有幾位大法官 以及要幾位大法官出席韓國跟我們說明 就我了解他們有九位大法官那七個大法官出席好 那美國呢美國是九位大法官 六位大法官出席好 那請問一下那個 副秘書長德國你應該清楚的 德國是幾位德國他是分成兩庭 一庭八位"},{"start":1100.482,"end":1103.278,"text":"然後要多少人出席"},{"start":1105.777,"end":1130.952,"text":"這就是我跟各位說的世界各國為什麼他們在訂定大法官人數以及出席人數最低出席人數要用數字來定之因為他們不讓少數的大法官因為每個人專業不同而讓最後的憲法判決會出來過於極端所以我國的憲法為什麼以前規定三分之二以上要參與評議然後要過半以上才同意也是希望說"},{"start":1131.952,"end":1137.396,"text":"為什麼要三分之二 要十位 就是因為他們希望不可以留於單一的專業"},{"start":1139.025,"end":1168.425,"text":"因為每個人的專業不同有人書界有人學書界有人懂民法有人懂刑法他不會讓最後假設剩下三位大法官就都學民法了然後就來釋憲刑法的部分這個是最低門檻的要求所以剛剛羅志強我也有提到捷克的制度是我們這次借鏡的制度結果這些國家你們最愛的美國也是這樣規定大家韓流最愛的韓國也是這樣規定我國法律來源的德國也是這樣規定都有最低人數的"},{"start":1169.485,"end":1197.357,"text":"要求就在我國變成是一個毀憲亂政 毀壞國家讓憲法法庭癱瘓的理由了那這些國家都白癡嗎這些國家設定最低的大法官出席人數的要求都是白癡嗎所以這個又是一堆立委不懂法律 法盲又在騙人都在騙國人然後叫大家說有人在癱瘓憲法法庭可是實際上你回過頭去看誰在癱瘓憲法法庭然後上次有委員說"},{"start":1201.351,"end":1221.366,"text":"最後變成三位大法官開庭他說這個是極端狀況 絕對不可能發生請問一下兩位 大家法律念幾十年了法律的設計不是就要思考到極端的狀況嗎不然我們刑法那麼多打擊錯誤 或是什麼雷家的"},{"start":1223.423,"end":1248.877,"text":"條件說 那個犯罪原因的條件說等等的那些在實務上100年也不會遇到疑慮啊我們以前不是唸嗎兩個人同時下毒都各下二分之一就剛好這個人死亡那我要負殺人罪還是殺人未遂所以這個都是在法律上本來就會法律設計會處理很多極端的狀況嘛那如果依照現有的制度還沒有生效的限訴法有可能三位大法官就開庭了"},{"start":1249.727,"end":1270.787,"text":"那這三位就可以決定國家的一切我們就是要避免這個狀況發生所以我們才會就憲訴法要這樣要求就竟然被某幾個立委到這裡來講說這麼極端怎麼可能發生還有法學博士欸某法學博士的立委在這裡說這不可能發生 以前也沒發生過我知道啊 可是法律的設計本來就是在面對各種形形樣樣"},{"start":1272.048,"end":1293.541,"text":"的可能性嘛所以我們在念民法在念刑法的時候老師出的考題都是在實務上幾乎不太可能發生的但是從理論上面你要怎麼回答所以我覺得很痛苦就來這邊面對一堆法盲的人我們在趕快跟我們爭執法律或是自己明明懂法律也知道自己講的是不對然後在那邊繼續騙人好所以這樣喔我想喔"},{"start":1298.632,"end":1319.896,"text":"我今天在這邊就是因為兩位都是學長那我在這邊就跟兩位我能提的就提到這邊那再麻煩就是說接下來的不管有沒有人申請再麻煩各位能夠依照我國的制度去處理因為我對於法律以及訴訟制度的認知就是今天這個法律設立了"},{"start":1321.533,"end":1343.682,"text":"就是要長治久安即使今天這個法律設計對我完全不利我的個性就是完全的服從它因為我是個遵守法律的人我是個遵守憲法的人我不會去玩弄憲法不會去玩弄法律那我也希望說司法院也能像我們這種當年分發的時候的那個初心一樣我到今天我沒有變過但很多在玩法律的人都變了好 謝謝兩位請審發會"}]}},{"id":"158892","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158892","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1abd589f18e7b4d8975a45ebd5c2e75318b9af4de1086944f11614a9641f3446d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:02:40 - 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保險業有很多的資金它沒有受到相關的規定沒有辦法有效在投入新創產業甚至在國內相關的投資表率比較少大部分都是國外 國外也有很多匯兌損失"},{"start":45.226,"end":58.044,"text":"所以怎麼樣能夠充分運用這個保險的這些資金啊特別導入這個新創事業這部分這個國發會或者是經濟部有沒有具體看法"},{"start":60.027,"end":80.012,"text":"報告委員其實我們保險業要投入到新創大概是從VC或PE那VC這一塊其實我們國發基金我們其實有匡列給不同的部會其實今年增加了兩個百億基金一個是AI一個是特定產業"},{"start":81.672,"end":106.666,"text":"對 特定產業那還有一般性的產業就是我們長期已經匡列給中小企業處還有一些製造業策略性製造業跟策略性服務業這已經有基本上有蠻多年了那意思就是然後還有我們還有綠色成長基金這也是綠色的新創我的問題是說以目前的這個金額來看我們有30兆的保險資金但是只有351頭是國內創投"},{"start":108.567,"end":137.475,"text":"跟國外的水準是差很遠的所以你怎麼用制度性用政策把這些國保險業的資金能夠提高能夠到一千億投資到卓恩創投市場嗎是所以我們其實因為我們因為基本上我們還是要借重VC或PE嘛那VC這一塊我們除了鼓勵保險業因為保險業有很多它自己是我認為它會保守啦對就因為你政策太保守你沒有辦法去開放"},{"start":137.975,"end":163.333,"text":"如果開放他只能去投資國外的這些債券所以我們這次產創條例裡面有增加對於這個VC這一塊我是針對保險業基金所以這部分很可惜因為資金那麼多就沒辦法好好地使用我想委員有提醒我們到時候再來跟經管會看看就是有什麼獎勵的措施這個要用在新創啦第二個問題請教就是說"},{"start":165.755,"end":189.625,"text":"我們這個對新創的這個定義啊那國安會是你用創業天使投資方案是未滿五年那如果按照經濟部中計署這個新創事業的利潤是未滿八年那最後的版本願版是用國安會的版本那請教次長你用五年還是八年比較好你看八年是最多的加速啊"},{"start":190.683,"end":196.907,"text":"5到8年新創的家屬是最多將近快2600家是所有新創族群裡面最大的比例"},{"start":198.081,"end":225.761,"text":"所以五年對他們而言沒有實際的幫助跟委員報告因為我們這是要做投資鼓勵他去做投資新創所以我們是從投資面去看所以我們那時候才會引用那個國發會的五年你自己做技術也有新創事業認定對啊那後面就是新創因為他後面八年一般來講是比較趨於穩定成熟那我們是鼓勵他再投在比較前面所以八年能不能接受"},{"start":228.055,"end":252.498,"text":"你用日本的英國的經驗來看日本是未滿五年 還有未滿十年它有不同的新創標準所以我折衷八年我覺得是可行 可以去思考的業界也這樣期待這個部分我希望如果下午要審查這個法案的時候我們希望能夠用這個版本 折衷版本我想國會應該也可以同意吧"},{"start":253.43,"end":280.256,"text":"那個高副主委因為基本上VC的出廠就會到8年就會出廠所以就變成說5到8年就是就像市長說的說的是比較成熟期的那我們這個立法的本領應該是鼓勵你那時候制定是兩年對不對那個新創產業的環境有很大的變化你的存活率是很低的你那個必須對他們支持的年限要增加"},{"start":280.996,"end":291.549,"text":"所以這次已經調整到五年了啦就是可能 不過立法的本地啦不過兩三年之後 要修法 要變成八年所以一步到位 我覺得比較好第三點來 下一頁這個"},{"start":296.755,"end":324.753,"text":"投資門檻 投資門檻的部分我當然我的修正版本是個人銀行是維持50萬那如果是創投的就是法人的股東的話可以到300萬這部分這個高副主委或者是林市長您的看法怎麼樣這個我們會請那個因為這個我們內部我們跟財政部有在去討論如果是法人的話其實我們現在有很多那是要理事長來回答是不是才是理事長"},{"start":325.816,"end":350.523,"text":"如果增加一個法人到300萬這個可以嗎?報告委員因為法人現在其實他們已經很多優惠了那還有這個投資的所得不用記錄所得課稅然後他如果處分的話還有證券交易所得免稅那因為我們又另外我們現在營利世界所得稅的稅率其實是大概只有20%而且實質有效稅率只有14%所以你們還是覺得所以我們是覺得法人部分"},{"start":351.583,"end":369.534,"text":"對 法院部門似乎不需要再額外給他這個多餘的獎勵因為他事實上已經足夠了另外這個抵檢的上限個人的話如果到800萬對稅會不會有什麼影響因為我們現在已經這次我們修正也把那個300萬提高到500萬了"},{"start":370.515,"end":385.547,"text":"那其實也是有呼應狀況的500萬是重點產業不是說有但是因為畢竟因為大家委員也知道因為真正如果把金額提高真正適用享受到這個租稅優惠的就是所得非常高的人"},{"start":386.209,"end":406.305,"text":"那他的所得 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出產帖也好 產創也好等等的總共稅損多少 算過沒有我以為要從出產到從獎頭開始沒有這個數字我們現在手邊沒有這個數據手邊現在沒有這個數據因為我們沒有想到好 那我跟你講 產創經濟部出估大概800億"},{"start":80.161,"end":103.51,"text":"這個不要讓你回答了 看下一頁去2023就在前年的時候總共核准了777件減免214億集中在電子業包括台積電、聯發科、聯友、聯電、日光、日月光、望虹、藍牙科"},{"start":104.505,"end":110.947,"text":"就是這給我賺錢的有錢喔 你拼命再給他啦用國家的碼拼命掛給他們這樣這這樣對嗎 這這樣好嗎就是你們經濟部方這樣老是拿我們老百姓的錢這樣賭賭賭賭賭來給這些賺大錢的"},{"start":123.611,"end":127.254,"text":"這個台積電賺這麼多錢 連電賺這麼多錢還要卡政府的油還要卡了這個700億 就從產窗來講800億裡面幾乎都是給這些那個 理事長啊 你敢要講下去啊從租稅公平的角度來講這等於是戒貧 戒貧戒貧戒戶啦是 謝謝委員這個產種條例就是戒貧戒戶條例啦"},{"start":153.9,"end":170.51,"text":"報告委員基本上因為我們從獎頭時代到現在出產然後經過十年這麼多年的發展到現在產業創新條例其實基本上他的租稅獎勵的工具還有就是獎勵的範圍其實一直有因應我們整個國家經濟發展的需求我覺得重點不是在問您我是跟你強調你們強調"},{"start":174.492,"end":192.427,"text":"今天所有的委員 立委提出來今天主席啊 當然我知道這個是為行政院排的啦主席都排的 你看立委都是排第10條之一增加AI進來啦 增加節能的啦那個沒有人反對了可是真的重點在22條 剛才陳昌明講得非常好啦"},{"start":193.663,"end":211.704,"text":"二十二條這是一個一個等於類似晶片法案台灣晶片法案這是到底配合美國的請問連市長是不是那個理事長可以回去了是不是配合美國的進一步的管制我們的投資到中國大陸去技術到中國大陸去是不是"},{"start":212.285,"end":228.294,"text":"報告跟委員報告那個投資大陸那有兩岸兩岸那個關係條例在處理那個會比這個更嚴格那這個是因應整個國際的情勢就是因應美國的要求嘛這個國際規範國際規劃嘛就沒錯嘛就是美國國際就是美國嘛重點在這裡啊各位整本法案重點在22條這裡啦就是管制啊前面實施的一段給你喔這樣多讚多讚給你這樣滴滴"},{"start":240.68,"end":268.163,"text":"其實是一點點啦重點在管制啊管制沒有一個立委提出這個啦你們重點在這個地方啦我跟你補充報告就是說我們在這個執行過程中確實是有碰到有一些案子因為我們現在的法治不是很周全所以有發生了一些案子那這些案子其實是我們現在是15億以上才會去審查那它透過一些漏洞然後真的是對我們我們台灣真的是有一些影響"},{"start":268.843,"end":285.194,"text":"譬如說譬如譬如說舉例Landmark Field舉例舉例一個譬如說譬如說哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個哪一個"},{"start":287.978,"end":290.52,"text":"這個道道地地就是根據美國的屁股後面走的法案啦22條藏在這裡啦今天這麼厚一本就是22條就是進一步管制我們的對外投資你看喔特定國家都指的是中國大陸嘛特經地區就是中國大陸還有哪些地方"},{"start":307.913,"end":316.262,"text":"你告訴我還寫哪些地方特定後面還寫什麼這些都是你們中央儲管機關來訂的變成你愛回歸就回歸不愛回歸就不愛回歸這個地方老實講是投資戒嚴啊是這樣子啊那個市長啊"},{"start":325.216,"end":341.043,"text":"人之將去啊我沒有說你是 你好好的啦 你健康啦你要離開齊炎也善齊炎也真啦齊炎也美啦齊炎也真 齊炎也善 齊炎也美我希望你講真話啦這個條例你是不是看得起你的專業你專業還是工業界 風電圈都是不要限制的"},{"start":352.008,"end":362.252,"text":"違背你內心的 那個內心深處 你的專業 敢不違背 要三條A嗎?我們在制定執法的時候 一定會跟業界專門的請問你會不會感覺 有這種感覺 違和的感覺 沒有嗎?這在我們目前國際的一個情勢或國家發展國家的發展 就配合美國 來 我再請問你你年紀輕輕的為什麼離開啊?"},{"start":377.165,"end":380.486,"text":"不過委員我60幾歲啊60幾歲還沒到65啊還沒到65啊 年紀輕輕的啊像馬桶一個啊因為身體不合理身體不合理喔還是長官太兇我一天睡覺沒四點鐘長官太兇啊長官太兇"},{"start":395.493,"end":403.22,"text":"沒有 他對你不好他對你不好是不是他有沒有挽留你有有挽留我挽留幾次挽留好幾次好幾次 1 2 3 4 5 6 幾次 幾次啦挽留幾次N次啦N小於3我們本來在說老老在怕病 但是我真的是身體不堪敵我身體不堪敵 我不怕他會替我受苦"},{"start":423.837,"end":426.799,"text":"請問你接多久我接了 如果到20到8個月啦8個月啊你接這個是假的啦這根本就是過個水就很清楚的"},{"start":441.349,"end":448.233,"text":"主席啊剛才主席讓其他委員都解隔多一兩分鐘啦這個今天主席比較仁慈啦今天我看到這個我們智慧主席很仁慈我知啦但是如果你真的這麼想退你不會說8個月就走掉這其中必有鬼啦沒有沒有沒有完全沒有這些東西知不知道的啦對不對大家都在學校來的啦這一看就知道"},{"start":470.425,"end":480.03,"text":"委員我不會做到你臨前燒香跟我說老闆知道就給你貼圖就好了 不可以這樣啊你身體好的人啊我不會做 我先貼這樣這樣就比較對 這樣比較適宜我好了這個八個月喔 這麼短的時間來 最後一點 你的專業川普總統說馬上要接總統了他說 方便是垃圾 你怎麼講"},{"start":496.5,"end":514.589,"text":"你同意不同意 你是封閉專家喔 你是封閉專家喔你講話很有 那個郭志輝講的叫做亂攻 他根本就不懂他說啊這個川普只做事你意向很大 他說垃圾怎麼講我只能說再生能源現在是國際的趨勢 他講封閉是垃圾你怎麼會"},{"start":517.284,"end":539.994,"text":"那是他個人的見解啦你尊重你不敢批評他你看到最後一點我明確的跟你講台電一千億的增值我已經寫提案砍掉全砍好不好這個是沒有意義的你們部長已經講他可以借錢就去借嘛好不好順從你們部長回去跟他講我意志非常堅定一千億一定要砍forge 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權利救濟了那這個我看你們的報告這個事實上我們從過去到現在看這個法務部跟司法院的意見在法務部"},{"start":312.079,"end":337.379,"text":"法務部的意見 這是黃執掌這個我看你們在書面報告第四頁裡面你們也有提到在目前需要在你們提到說必須為了避免司法權對行政權有過度的干預所以必須在事後救濟已無實意的情形下時有事前救濟的必要性對不對這個是關於行政訴訟法上的"},{"start":337.799,"end":351.736,"text":"對 行政訴訟法上的事實上實務這個是你們所提出來的看法但在實務的判決上面的參照我們參照實務判決裡面事實上包括最高行政法院的裁定2183號裁定還有98年度的1515號"},{"start":356.321,"end":380.708,"text":"判決裁定他們都有有關行政機關的作為如果對人民發生重大有重大損害之餘得以其他適當的方式避免者不在此限都有用這些相關的這些判例他來讓這個這個這個可能的突破法律的這個規範的適用的這個框架的這樣子的途徑他有規定一些要件對不對"},{"start":381.793,"end":395.599,"text":"我想這個並沒有什麼突破法律因為解釋適用上行政訴訟法的一般給付處分就是第八條的裡面就解釋適用上包含了這種違法性的不作為處分因為時間的關係所以我沒有重複我們這個剛剛已經有提過的這些法律適用有關行政訴訟法"},{"start":404.683,"end":428.089,"text":"這個行政程序法它用第115條來準用民事訴訟法準用民事訴訟法的246條啦那在憲法訴訟法裡面又用這個第46條憲法訴訟法第46條來而且參考這個行政訴訟法第307條之一的這個體例它來整個來適用行政訴訟這行政程序法再用行政程序法再來準用"},{"start":429.957,"end":444.413,"text":"這個民事訴訟法所以它是準用再準用之後這個就這個預防性的權利救濟是不是能夠適用如果用這一條的解釋這個贊成的方面他們就是認為應該"},{"start":445.974,"end":467.586,"text":"這是因為訴訟程序的規定就是很多人會用這種方式准用是因為不用重複規定那法理相通的地方也有相關的案件可以來參照不過我們可以看得出來從行政訴訟法去准用民事訴訟法的時候其實它的要件都有一些不同那當然憲法訴訟法怎麼樣是憲法法庭才會自己去審查這最後當然還是取決於憲法法庭"},{"start":469.147,"end":486.879,"text":"我請問副秘書長現在我要問司法院的意見我們過去的釋憲的實務或者是過去立審判決的實務上面是不是有預防性權力救濟的適用的例子有或者是有相似的情形可以做類推適用的情形有沒有請司法院這邊說明一下我請書記廳長回覆這個部分過去的釋憲實務跟立審判決的實務"},{"start":492.743,"end":509.243,"text":"跟委員說明如果是以今天在我們報告裡面所定義的這個預防性的權利救濟那這個部分在過去的法制面跟實務面並沒有明確這樣具體的說法不過可以跟委員說明的是這是沒有具體的說法但是有沒有類似的情形可以類推的"},{"start":509.864,"end":535.771,"text":"如果要拿來說討論的話在舊治時代曾經有一種解釋類型是憲法疑義的解釋類型那這個憲法疑義的解釋類型在當時就有立法院立法委員在審議法案的時候認為審議中的法案有違反憲法的疑義申請大法官進行解釋不過這邊要說明的是這樣的一個解釋類型在憲法訴訟新制的時候已經把它刪除掉了以上有沒有這個可以這個支比這個"},{"start":538.092,"end":557.365,"text":"援引的這個法理或者是外國的立法力這個部分就我個人粗淺的了解並沒有這麼明確的說法好那這個我想剛才因為我們我們這個胡昭偉有特別講說贊成他認為在這個在這個"},{"start":561.824,"end":584.005,"text":"關於預防性權力救濟在這個憲法訴訟上面的適用是極端少數的學說吳釗瑋剛才說這是極端少數的學說但是事實上它是不是極端少數的學說或者說就這個憲法解釋是不是能夠適用這個預防性的暫時處分這樣子的做法事實上"},{"start":585.697,"end":613.955,"text":"我這個舉一個例子啦我們以這個當年馬英九總統所提名的大法官我們蘇永慶大法官他就在昨天在聯合報他就發表文章他的主旨當然是說政院務把憲法法庭當工具這個立場是非常清楚的但是他在文章裡面非常清楚的寫到說違憲審查的制度設計是否只能以生效法律為客體答案不是那麼絕對的"},{"start":615.95,"end":632.331,"text":"答案不是那麼絕對這就表示什麼這就表示他在學說上面有贊成的有反對的這個是現在學術上面的現況至於你是贊成的到底是不是屬於極端的少數那個就變成是主觀判斷了連我們這個蘇永清前大法官他也說"},{"start":634.113,"end":657.074,"text":"是不是只能以生肖的法律為客體答案不是那麼絕對而且他後面還提到說法國過去採用這樣的制度那德國憲法法庭的建制初期也對抽象的這個憲政問題表示過同樣的這樣的看法也就是說這不是所謂極端少數的學說而是他確實是在世界外國立法律上面也有採用而且他是不是"},{"start":657.995,"end":687.019,"text":"一定要以生肖的法律作為這個釋憲的這個課題這個東西不是那麼絕對這個我想是大家在學術上面大家基本上有共同的認知所以這個我想就學術上面他當然有贊成的有反對的不同意見那在實際上面究竟這個這次的這個限數法的修正可不可以"},{"start":687.881,"end":710.156,"text":"可不可以準用這個我們這個預防性權力救濟的方式來進行這個釋憲我想這個我問次長有沒有用我問秘書長有沒有用他最後還是取決於憲法法庭對不對我們立法院在這邊開會開到天翻地覆大家做表決一致同意起立鼓掌也沒有用還是最後還是要看憲法法庭對不對"},{"start":712.199,"end":727.209,"text":"我想這個問題我想今天我就釐清到這裡我也讓大家知道說這個東西並不是說在學術上面真的是所謂少數極端那另外接下來齁這個時間已經到了我再借兩分鐘啦我不會用十分鐘我覺得兩分鐘的時間我這個上個禮拜感謝感謝就兩分鐘這個另外一個議題啦齁這個"},{"start":736.778,"end":761.605,"text":"上個禮拜我們陸委會有提到說剛才陳俊宇委員大概也有就這個問題來詢問過我們司法院就是說我們陸委會在上個禮拜提到呼籲法官要與時俱進要設立國安法庭第二天我們司法院就發了新聞稿澄清說明就是說你們已經有設國安法庭了是不是"},{"start":769.541,"end":772.13,"text":"所有每一家法院都已經設了那這個"},{"start":774.68,"end":797.288,"text":"這個你們的設置不只一般民眾不知道啦連我們國家的陸委會都不知道你們有沒有設置所以可見你們這個有關於設置這個國安法庭的部分那大家看到這些目前社會上普遍輿論對於一些目前國安案件的這些相關的審判結果都認為說是不是因為我們沒有設專庭或者是我們的這個法官對於國安的這些相關的認知不夠"},{"start":800.831,"end":809.079,"text":"不夠專業啦齁但是結果我看你們的說明你們有提到說你們這個自109年起齁陸續舉辦國家安全研習會案例研習座談會邀集省檢國安檢察機關學者共同研討請國安機關安排"},{"start":820.63,"end":838.485,"text":"協助安排課程對不對是不是是的這個持續都一直在進行那我最後最後我就就就不再不再敘述了我就問提出問題那請你們能夠回答就回答不能夠回答請你們用書面在三個月內提出一個書面報告就是說"},{"start":840.274,"end":857.596,"text":"現在法官參與你們所提到這些國家安全相關的研習會跟案例座談會目前法官的參與人數這是第一個問題第二問題是不是有成效的評估報告這是第二個問題第三個問題是不是所有審理國安案件的法官都必須強制接受相關的訓練"},{"start":858.857,"end":879.129,"text":"這是第三個問題第四個問題目前這個國家你們所提到的國安局軍事情報局海巡署等實地的教學是不是已經有固定的合作機制還是臨時性的安排是不是有具體的成果課程的具體的成果這是第四個問題請問一併回答到時候書面一併回答第五再來這個"},{"start":881.035,"end":901.493,"text":"我們目前有一個指引啦我看你們的新聞稿裡面有提到一個有焦點團體建議法院辦理國家安全犯罪樣態量刑審酌時以允註意事項的指引對不對目前有這個指引啦在實務上是不是已經被法官廣泛的採用這個指引這個是接下來另外一個問題最後一個問題"},{"start":903.803,"end":914.19,"text":"我們目前的這些審判採用的標準是不是有這個標準不一的情況的存在這些問題請在三個月內提出個書面報告可以嗎可以好 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看你怎麼運用啦像有一些"},{"start":401.972,"end":416.148,"text":"比如說網紅他內容很好他不需要廣告不算所以我們今年又開始點閱率也很高所以你不能把點閱率的少直接把它歸因為沒內容還是王道我知道委員的意思所以你還要通過很多管道去宣傳所以目標遠大"},{"start":416.989,"end":434.793,"text":"就要有執行力啦好不好好的請委員也多支持我們的預算我們都沒有刪你預算啊但是你要努力啊你不能說因為我沒有努力都歸咎於沒有錢啊這樣回答也不是很我們會很努力有限的預算我們會繼續持續的來推進幾時太偏低了好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝葉雲芝委員委員長請回"}]}},{"id":"158888","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/158888","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/427ddbb1724b1d1a94155011535bc7f25a45ebd5c2e753184204766f4a2623bd844353fb8ddf334f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"10:43:47 - 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美國跟你要你敢不給他台積電那麼大的公司乖乖就要去報導了我們不要講得那麼好聽嘛現實的狀況嘛特定77在那個戰略性高科技豁免管制的這樣的公司這還不夠特定啊 什麼叫特定的產業那因為這個有國際規範什麼叫特定"},{"start":291.258,"end":304.655,"text":"順頌為之你們設這個願意應該要再送出來給立法院再討論跟工商業再來討論一下好不好我們在訂定這個執法的時候會跟這些工商業者"},{"start":305.696,"end":333.978,"text":"會密集的來討論這個東西在定議前會送到經濟委員會讓我們看一下我希望真的要尊重台灣人很可憐耶是很怕病耶是人物人質類要貪那些情緒苦苦辛辛的在那裡停滯啊好不好好再來我請市委部啦那個誰啊市委部還有國安會啦國安會高副主委"},{"start":338.653,"end":359.945,"text":"我相信你們增加的產品新增加的就是智慧AI產品及服務還有一個節能減碳我今天為什麼把三個叫起來你看我們經濟部裡面有技術處有工研院"},{"start":361.024,"end":380.17,"text":"有我們的產業發展史,現在就是世衛產業史,我怎麼會突然把它調到世衛部去?其實這個世衛的產業跟我們所有的產業是息息相關的"},{"start":381.832,"end":398.393,"text":"所以我今天為什麼請國務部到副支委你也在國務部很久我是一個大膽的建議啊不然這樣摸不著頭緒摸不著頭緒要找一台單位副局局會迷迷糊糊啦我是講真的啦你會變成多頭馬車"},{"start":400.663,"end":428.984,"text":"所以我今天大膽建議你國防部真的要有作為把世衛部的世衛產業史掛到經濟部裡面再成立一個史這樣產業發展史、世衛發展史計時次公園院剛好結為議題大破大立不要因循於傳統世衛部你不要抵制你世衛產業史裡面在這邊才能給你真正的發揮"},{"start":430.758,"end":447.727,"text":"當然未來的AI產業它所發展的各種跟文化什麼都會改變了很多這是關鍵性的時刻人不要因習傳統某些企業就要來等一下要找到思維部等一下要找到思維發展使用技術處我是建議"},{"start":451.045,"end":472.445,"text":"回去也轉來一下,國發會也要有大膽作為你們的劉志偉我覺得頭腦很新在國外管理單位顧問公司當過董事長算非常有經驗我是今天看到這樣大家說得很高興很高興你沒有統一的領導沒有這樣一個系統的治理會做不好"},{"start":473.326,"end":499.115,"text":"尤其AI和智慧的產品硬體的時候以後都會變成鴻海市場你經濟部包括國安會你說要發揮我們AI那個邊緣運算的產業等於是我們的軟體台灣在這個時候要加強軟體才能永久利益不敗之地啦考慮一下對我的看法怎麼樣國慧你講講好啊 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楊群發言 邀請次長"},{"start":20.901,"end":41.876,"text":"市長好我們針對於今天產業創新條例裡頭因為本席非常非常的關心我們的產業所以因此這個租稅優惠措施是為了要優化我們整個產業結構達到智慧升級轉型並且鼓勵多元性的創新應用"},{"start":42.697,"end":70.535,"text":"那原本的智慧優惠條例就在於113年12月31號要屆滿但是我們也考慮到智慧機械的部分我們是可以協助整個產業建立更彈性更高效的一個生產跟服務的優勢所以國內雖然也已經有進步到整個智慧化但是在整個調整結構它必須要較長的時間所以因此"},{"start":71.235,"end":85.815,"text":"促進產業投資呢還是有它非常重要的一個必要性所以在這樣情況之下請問次長你是否同意這個創新的這個條例能夠提升我國產業競爭力的關鍵重要"},{"start":88.211,"end":102.863,"text":"這個本來就是關鍵重要對那所以請你支持本席的提案也就是第10條之一跟第72條時間延續下來到118年你是不是同意這個是我們的方向"},{"start":103.123,"end":122.256,"text":"你們的也是同意所以我們非常高興朝野大家一致我也希望建議主席我們今天在巡打完就趕快加速讓我們的產業可以安心我們能夠今天來出委員會所以因此本校特別提出延長智慧基線跟第五代的行動"},{"start":123.737,"end":138.882,"text":"通訊系統跟資安非常重要跟資安安全產品或者是服務投資來抵減租稅的優惠期間來新增人工智慧產品或服務能夠將節能減碳這個向下也能夠來投資抵減的項目"},{"start":144.424,"end":157.479,"text":"這也是我們現在在研擬的方向一直要研擬一直要推動所以我們還是有默契我再次強調新增人工智慧產品或服務節能減碳等投資來作為減向的項目對是認同的"},{"start":160.683,"end":188.281,"text":"所以我们也希望今天这个寻答完可以直接来处理我们一起加油为我们的产业来加油也请所有的产业在过年的时候能够让他们放心我们一起来支持我们的产业而且让整个产业的智慧优化多元性都能够让他们得到一个安心也就是投资体检的部分呢是最低就是以这个一百万以上最高到十亿的这个这个"},{"start":189.642,"end":212.594,"text":"範圍內就個案來做協助我們10億有調到18億了對 所以這個非常重要所以我們一直希望能夠把它提升上來就是100萬一直到18億這個整體性大家來達成一個共識來協助我們的產業好 那接下來本席要請教你水會的問題因為卓院長有說漏水率"},{"start":213.334,"end":242.313,"text":"它預計在未來8年要投資807.7億也就是121年我們10年計畫121年漏水率是要降到10%因為本席不斷地在說那我們水這麼寶貴但是你讓它在管子裡面漏掉這個是太可惜了所以我們不斷地在抓老人太管在這樣的情況之下目前所謂的四級制"},{"start":243.434,"end":258.592,"text":"但是如果依照目前我們得到的方案是計劃要調整 未來是會調整到7級值那增加200度 1000度以及4000度的級距因為目前為止是10度以下的是7.35"},{"start":260.373,"end":278.082,"text":"第二段是11度到30度的是9.45第三段的是31度到50度的這個論舉是11.55第四段是50度以上的是拉到12.07那麼如果說照目前我們得到的訊息是要改制為這個7級"},{"start":280.183,"end":286.845,"text":"那麼換句話說漲幅會從25%漲到90%那換句話說平均值從10.7%會拉到15%換句話說漲幅是4成平均值是4成所以請教市長水費真的會漲嗎因為是31年沒漲那院長是說去研究看但是因為這種研究這裡講的都是"},{"start":306.812,"end":325.226,"text":"空穴來風啦空穴來風對對我現在講說漲四成那我們要拜託拜託我們媒體委員我非常感謝你這裡講的說漲四成我先插到你的話我非常感謝你我們的質詢目的就是不要讓民眾憂心我們把事實去還原請說"},{"start":326.587,"end":330.649,"text":"你要調整的話你一定要一定是要審慎的去規劃檢討然後再經過審議委員會去討論那這裡外面都講說直接講說要漲到4成這個都是外面在預測的不是你的目標還有剛才委員講的說要從幾級怎麼去調"},{"start":345.236,"end":357.241,"text":"四級到七級有沒有這回事這個東西都在檢討當中研議中嗎研議中沒有像外界我剛才講空間來說外界直接就把它直接就引到說要漲到多那大家也安心過年了所以本席要請教我們經濟部的態度是什麼會不會漲"},{"start":363.203,"end":388.52,"text":"我們省市來研議因為31年沒漲啦我們要來檢討 那檢討的時候也要依據當時的整個一個環境情況還有民生物價的一個狀況市長 你的確是探求明末因為你要注意現在民眾的日子苦蛤蛤對對對尤其我們要省慎的去避免因為你的調漲而去影響到物價的高漲這個我們都會考慮到這個非常重要你有沒有一個時間點你們研議的時間點多久時間會告訴民眾"},{"start":393.283,"end":416.893,"text":"到底那個時間點 請告訴我們民眾 我們還是要有所本啊對 請說你的言議是無限期的言議 還是半年 還是一年他是說水公司要三個月提方案出來三個月提方案當方案提出來不是就可行啦對對對 所以三個月提方案出來 我還是再次強調"},{"start":417.833,"end":424.859,"text":"你一定要審慎考量不要因為調漲損費引起物價的高漲這一句知識體大我要謝謝你但是沒有說一下就是到市省這個外面這樣最後一個議題我功課給你再一分鐘給我就好我功課給你 謝謝"},{"start":437.088,"end":453.366,"text":"我們媒體報導 經濟部所屬的這個事業機構裡頭 台電 台水 台油 這個台廠中有13號舉辦的全國有2萬1千人報考 但是第一節的考試只有達到1萬1238人那換句話 入取率從3.81提升到7.35 因為一半的人幾乎他沒有來考"},{"start":459.232,"end":485.21,"text":"那創下了有史以來近三年的新低在這樣的情況之下我們五年來報考的人數越來越少國藝事業單位缺工那我本期非常的希望你們要去檢討你要檢討怎麼樣能夠確保人才的永續有沒有要檢討我們現在也把新進人員的薪資要再往上再提升你把你們確保人才的方案"},{"start":486.581,"end":489.724,"text":"眼裡的方案給本席一定要確保人才"}]}},{"id":"159051","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159051","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fbf5fa84db97a78695a45ebd5c2e75318bbf0a69acbcd9c1c06b5fab5b46a0e585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:20:39 - 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我講這個經濟部也不方便回答18億跟20億只有差一點點 到底你們有沒有去精算過差這個2億你們的稅損會差多少所以如果不是太多的話為什麼不能變成20億"},{"start":254.269,"end":277.421,"text":"報告委員 基本上我們當然是因為這個18億也是我們跟經濟部在行政院充分討論大家獲得的共識我瞭解是經濟部堅持喔那個是財政部堅持喔部長他希望的是20億喔所以部長現在還是在對外講說他希望能夠去爭取到20億如果說有差一點點或者是有超過20億的他還要想辦法去幫他們爭取一些優惠喔"},{"start":278.321,"end":299.951,"text":"其实我们有参考就是以往年度我们提供这个十条之一置机投底的那个金额大家适用的状况那其实看起来大部分的企业都是符合规定的都在我们那个十亿的金额以下那只是说少部分的产业当然有一部分会超过但是这次我们也配合就是加入人工智慧还有就是节能减碳我们也把这个金额提高了"},{"start":300.331,"end":315.138,"text":"那其實這個金額我們也是考慮說因為企業其實它購置機器設備它不會一次全部買足因為它是分年或者是分批分階段購置所以基本上它每一年只要在這個金額範圍內它都可以使用這個投資體檢優惠大家也知道一個設備如果金額很龐大勢必是要分階段分年來購置的所以我們覺得這個18億的金額其實也是我們在行政院跟經濟部也是有討價還價的結果才決定了這個金額我覺得你們我剛問了那個稅損"},{"start":329.005,"end":346.911,"text":"會差多少你們有沒有算過稅水二十億的部分你當然這樣講啊你當然說哎呀因為那個設備購資他不會一次一次把它購足嘛他會分年嘛我當然知道他會分年嘛但是如果政府能夠更大方一點我提供更好的租稅優惠更好的這些這些條件"},{"start":348.181,"end":375.151,"text":"我覺得其實它是會創造更多的誘因創造更多的投資而且你現在講的人工智慧其實很多的這些設備費用是跟你往年的這些設備費用其實是天差地別的所以你現在講說往年只有10億所以也達不到這個那我現在提高到18億我覺得已經對他們很好了我認為如果是這樣的思維其實這個不叫創新啦你們還是在講說我已經有給你了啦這樣已經夠了啦"},{"start":376.833,"end":386.313,"text":"而且您剛剛的報告其實你就跟各國來比較跟各國比較你就覺得說我們沒有比人家差但是你沒有告訴我你有沒有比人家好"},{"start":387.813,"end":413.384,"text":"這就是我們最大的問題你知道嗎你都告訴我說人家也有這樣啊人家也沒有那樣啊所以我們不會比人家差但是你沒有告訴我你提的這些東西有沒有比人家好所以我想這一點我覺得你們應該要換一個角度去思考你提出來的東西有沒有比人家好有沒有比其他國家好有沒有比其他國家更優惠這個才是創造誘因最大的利基點"},{"start":414.244,"end":422.986,"text":"一个主席已经站起来我就不再多说了但是我觉得可能你们还要再去思考一下好谢谢邱委员下位咨询请陈提飞委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":132,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時20分）謝謝主席。我先請一下經濟部。"],["主席：請經濟部連次長。"],["連次長錦漳：委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：次長早。次長，很高興今天還可以在這裡看到你。首先我想要先請教一個時事題，馬上就要過年了，經濟部在日前有宣布春節的油價方案是只跌不漲，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你們會在這個時候，把油品的價格控制在一定的……"],["連次長錦漳：油、氣都不會調。"],["邱委員議瑩：油、氣都不會調，那水電呢？"],["連次長錦漳：水在春節不會……"],["邱委員議瑩：因為我看到卓院長說水價應該要適度的調整，開始就有媒體在寫卓榮泰指示水價要上漲，所以你們可能會上漲四成，很多人開始人心惶惶，我是不是利用這個機會讓經濟部也說明一下好不好？我們現在水電有沒有調整的方案，如果有，什麼時候會做？次長。"],["連次長錦漳：我跟委員報告，其實水、電是不是要漲，這都有一個審議委員會，而且審議委員會在調的時候，也會通盤考量到國內的整個經濟情況，還有民生消費狀況，不會貿然去調整，所以一定會經過一個深思熟慮的情況再來調整。院長講的只是我們可以去討論，但是討論不一定會去做調整，也要等到一個……不是討論就一定是調整……"],["邱委員議瑩：你還是要等到你們的審議委員會討論完之後才會確定嘛，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：一定要經過審議委員會，審議委員會一定會經過通盤完整的考量，才會去做一些決定。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。對於媒體這樣的報導，我覺得可能你們也應該要去跟媒體做一些澄清，因為第一個，還沒有經過討論，也不知道它到底會不會漲，即使會漲，也不一定是像媒體講的……"],["連次長錦漳：也不一定像媒體講的這樣子。"],["邱委員議瑩：對啊！媒體馬上就給你寫「漲四成」。所以我認為這樣的一個報導，其實對於大家覺得要過年了，經濟部在處理……"],["連次長錦漳：是有點會讓人心惶惶。"],["邱委員議瑩：是，所以我想這個經濟部可能還是要再去做一些澄清，再去做一些說明。"],["連次長錦漳：好，我們有適時對外澄清說明這個部分。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，接下來，我還是要請教一下次長，我們今天討論產創條例，大概整理了一下，這個是你們行政院的幾個版本嘛，我現在大概幾個問題要請教，其實大家都覺得抵減金額到底應該要多少會比較好？行政院的版本是18億，本席提出的版本是20億，我這個版本20億的數字，其實是跟郭智輝部長希望的20億是一樣的，可是我剛剛聽了財政部的報導說他們已經通盤考量過了，他們覺得這樣已經很好了，所以他希望大院支持你們18億。次長，你們怎麼看？"],["連次長錦漳：因為我們這是行政院版本，我們在內部……"],["邱委員議瑩：我知道，所以你現在還是必須要支持行政院版本，你還是只能講18億，對不對？"],["連次長錦漳：因為我們有稍微考慮……"],["邱委員議瑩：如果到20億會不會比較好一點？你覺得到了20億是不是對企業的誘因會更增強一點？18億跟20億差兩億而已，政府怎麼不能大方一點給他們大一點的誘因？"],["連次長錦漳：內部討論時，有考慮到一些衡平性，還有租稅方面衡平性的問題。"],["邱委員議瑩：衡平性跟租稅方面？好，財政部次長，我請教一下，讓您回答一下，我想經濟部也不方便回答。"],["李次長慶華：委員好，是。"],["邱委員議瑩：18億跟20億只有差一點點，到底你們有沒有去精算過？差兩億，你們的稅損會差多少，如果不是太多的話，為什麼不能變成20億？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，因為這18億也是我們跟經濟部在行政院充分討論，大家獲得的共識……"],["邱委員議瑩：但我了解是財政部堅持喔！郭部長他希望的是20億。"],["李次長慶華：沒有、沒有，因為我們……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以部長現在還是在對外講他希望能夠去爭取到20億，如果有差一點點或者是有超過20億，他還要想辦法去幫他們爭取一些優惠。"],["李次長慶華：跟委員報告，其實我們有參考以往年度我們提供第十條之一智機投抵的金額，大家適用的狀況，其實看起來，大部分的企業都是符合規定的，都在我們10億的金額以下，只是少部分的產業，當然有一部分會超過，但是這次我們也配合加入人工智慧還有節能減碳，我們也把金額提高了。其實這個金額，我們也是考慮到因為企業其實購置機器設備，它不會一次全部買足，因為它是分年或者是分批、分階段購置，所以基本上每一年只要在這個金額範圍內，它都可以適用投資抵減優惠。大家也知道，一個設備如果金額很龐大，勢必是要分階段、分年來購置的，所以我們覺得18億的金額，其實也是我們在行政院跟經濟部有討價還價的結果才決定了這個金額。"],["邱委員議瑩：我剛剛問你們稅損會差多少，你們有沒有算過？"],["李次長慶華：稅損20億的部分，因為我們……"],["邱委員議瑩：你當然這樣講，你當然說因為設備購置不會一次購足，它會分年……"],["李次長慶華：是，它會分年購置。"],["邱委員議瑩：我當然知道它會分年，但是如果政府能夠更大方一點、提供更好的租稅優惠及更好的這些條件，我覺得其實它是會創造更多的誘因、創造更多的投資，而且你現在講的人工智慧，很多、很多的設備費用是跟往年的這一些設備費用其實是天差地別的，所以你現在講往年只有10億也達不到這個，而現在提高到18億，你們覺得已經對他們很好了。我認為如果是這樣的思維，其實這個不叫創新，你們還是在講「我已經有給你了，這樣已經夠了」，而且您剛剛的報告，其實跟各國來比較，你就覺得我們沒有比人家差，但是你沒有告訴我，你有沒有比人家好，這就是我們最大的問題，你知道嗎？你都告訴我人家也有這樣、人家也沒有那樣，所以我們不會比人家差，但是你沒有告訴我，你提的這些東西有沒有比人家好？所以我想這一點，我認為你們應該要換一個角度去思考，你提出來的東西有沒有比人家好，有沒有比其他國家好，有沒有比其他國家更優惠，這才是創造誘因最大的立基點。","因為主席已經站起來，我就不再多說了，但是我覺得可能你們還要再去思考一下，謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝邱議瑩委員。","下一位質詢請陳亭妃委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":452,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-2-19,20-1","speakers":["邱志偉","葛如鈞","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","邱議瑩","陳亭妃","郭國文","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","謝衣鳯","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","李坤城","陳超明","賴士葆","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","賴瑞隆","葉元之","黃珊珊","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","林德福","林岱樺","顏寬恒","張嘉郡","李彥秀","羅明才"],"page_start":327,"meetingDate":["2025-01-15"],"gazette_id":"1142101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142101_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第2會期經濟、財政兩委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「產業創新條例部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員葛如鈞等16人\n擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一及第十七條之一條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員林岱樺等18人\n擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一及第十七條之一條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等29人\n擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一及第七十二條條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員何欣純等23人擬\n具「產業創新條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案；六、本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「產業創新條\n例第十條之一及第七十二條條文修正草案」案；七、本院委員蔡其昌等18人擬具「產業創新條例\n第十條之一及第七十二條條文修正草案」案；八、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「產業創新條例第十\n條之一條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一及第七十\n二條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員邱志偉等20人擬具「產業創新條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；十一、本院委員鄭正鈐等19人擬具「產業創新條例第十條之一條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1142101_00005"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}