{"total":{"value":156,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2025-03-13"],"total_page":2,"ivods":[{"id":"160933","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160933","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a4532f731e18a3f6c565abfacd5c4e77ba53b8a5773cfe3d1872cd4b1c1e2e75cbf5781e8931119d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:09:33 - 09:12:26","影片長度":"00:02:53","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T09:09:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T09:12:26+08:00","duration":173,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.21096875,"end":64.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.79284375,"end":80.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.81159375,"end":143.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.65409375000002,"end":170.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.85221875000002,"end":173.15159375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.827,"end":32.805,"text":"謝謝主席感謝林一錦主席在我們這個會期的一開始就安排了一個如此重要的法案剛剛我特別看了一下出席的名單因為在本席提案的版本當中特別著重在有關於青年人才以及未來的青年有關於如何來培養他們的金融素養我們都知道普惠金融其實是不論"},{"start":33.826,"end":55.475,"text":"金管會或者是其他相關的我們政府財政相關單位非常重視的一個部分可是我認為在相關著重青年的議題當中有關於青年如何能夠擁有普惠金融的素養更為重要而我們在相關的政策制定的過程當中有沒有考量到青年的需要"},{"start":56.235,"end":79.673,"text":"我想在這棟大樓的樓上就是九樓大禮堂是財政委員會央行現在正在做專案的報告而另外我想在過去我在財政委員會的過程當中也常常提到從山到猴子的一生我們看到的是許多青年在面對自己融資借款或者是金融資訊當中其實是有許多需要完備"},{"start":80.914,"end":96.301,"text":"而我們的政策包括在前一陣子財政委員會討論非常激烈的就是有關於清安貸款的等等這些政策的制定到底是幫了青年一把還是其實設下了許多重重的陷阱"},{"start":96.821,"end":112.926,"text":"根據金融研訓院在2022年台灣金融生活調查的報告當中顯示有78.1%的民眾金融素養偏低而其中20到29歲的青年族群是最難抵抗金融風險"},{"start":114.246,"end":141.459,"text":"容易誤觸金融陷阱跟詐騙顯示政府對於青年金融教育的介入跟支持還有我們政策自定的部分有許多改善的空間有的時候我們想做但是卻做的不到位或者是做的不是他們需要的因此本席所提出來的青年基本法當中非常高興主席有邀請到了財政跟金管會相關單位的官員列席但是本席必須說層級不夠高"},{"start":143.76,"end":170.181,"text":"那么我希望今天既然来了这些讯息能够带回去给这两个部会的主管希望他们把青年放在心上所以本席所提出来的版本当中特别加入了青年金融素养概要在我们推动青年基本法的同时要纳入提升青年金融素养的相关概念而政策的制定当中一定要倾听青年的声音谢谢好谢谢林楚音"}]}},{"id":"160932","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/160932","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/a4532f731e18a3f60c4bd43786c1864bba53b8a5773cfe3d1872cd4b1c1e2e75da6e6bdae5930a855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:07:25 - 09:09:28","影片長度":"00:02:03","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T09:07:25+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T09:09:28+08:00","duration":123,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":0.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.290968750000001,"end":121.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.74596875,"end":122.96534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.123,"end":0.143,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":10.302,"end":34.117,"text":"好 以井昭偉還有在場所有的同仁大家早安首先大家非常感謝林以井昭偉來排審青年基本法因為這個法其實很多青年都等很久了那在立法院也討論了兩個屆期現在也有18個委員有版本那多次的討論下來我相信制定一部青年基本法是跨黨派的共識那特別感動的是"},{"start":34.997,"end":55.387,"text":"在一次次匯集意見當中來聆聽青年的聲音可以讓年輕人直接來制定政策這件事情非常非常重要在我的版本裡面有三個重點第一個是要促進青年參與公共政策我相信中央政府必須要把這個權力釋出來所以每年至少要召開兩次的青年政策的諮詢匯報邀請青年的代表"},{"start":58.809,"end":79.037,"text":"專家學者還有公民團體來參與來監督檢討青年政策讓青年可以直接參與政策的形成過程來推導決策的高強那第二個政府應該要每四年來訂定青年政策的白皮書每兩年就來擬定國家青年發展的計畫召集相關的部會還有團體來參與來定期審視執政的方向對於青年的照顧是不是足夠了"},{"start":85.7,"end":103.679,"text":"那第三個是政府應該要協助以青年為主體的非營利組織還有社團的發展制定相關的補助還有培訓的計畫來消除世代的不平等那我相信比起壯世代青年世代在社會上的資源分配才是相對的弱勢我們應該要用國家的力量"},{"start":104.179,"end":120.47,"text":"用基本法的高度來支持他們在社會上的生活讓青年可以在政策制定的過程當中具有角色讓行政機關在制定任何政策的過程當中都可以思考到青年的需求我相信這才是真正的世代正義謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159035","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159035","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fac664ab42d51485eba53b8a5773cfe3dbbf0a69acbcd9c1c294d796a60933aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:07:32 - 09:09:54","影片長度":"00:02:22","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T09:07:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T09:09:54+08:00","duration":142,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.072218750000001,"end":117.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.44284375000001,"end":124.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.98909375,"end":142.28721875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.072,"end":27.852,"text":"好 以井昭偉還有在場所有的同仁大家早安首先大家非常感謝林以井昭偉來排審青年基本法因為這個法其實很多青年都等很久了那在立法院也討論了兩個屆期現在也有18個委員有版本那多次的討論下來我相信制定一部青年基本法是跨黨派的共識"},{"start":28.773,"end":51.169,"text":"那特別感動的是在一次次匯集意見當中來聆聽青年的聲音可以讓年輕人直接來制定政策這件事情非常非常重要在我的版本裡面有三個重點第一個是要促進青年參與公共政策我相信中央政府必須要把這個權力釋出來所以每年至少要召開兩次的青年政策的諮詢匯報邀請青年的代表"},{"start":54.591,"end":80.814,"text":"專家學者還有公民團體來參與來監督檢討青年政策讓青年可以直接參與政策的形成過程來推導決策的高強那第二個政府應該要每四年來訂定青年政策的白皮書每兩年就來擬定國家青年發展的計畫召集相關的部會還有團體來參與來定期審視執政的方向對於青年的照顧是不是足夠了"},{"start":81.474,"end":107.852,"text":"那第三個是政府應該要協助以青年為主體的非營利組織還有社團的發展制定相關的補助還有培訓的計畫來消除世代的不平等那我相信比起壯世代青年世代在社會上的資源分配才是相對的弱勢我們應該要用國家的力量用基本法的高度來支持他們在社會上的生活讓青年可以在政策制定的過程當中具有角色"},{"start":108.332,"end":116.955,"text":"让行政机关在制定任何政策的过程当中都可以思考到青年的需求我相信这才是真正的世代正义谢谢"},{"start":133.617,"end":141.979,"text":"謝謝主席感謝林一錦主席在我們這個會期的一開始就安排了一個如此重要的法案剛剛我特別看了一下出席的"}]}},{"id":"159038","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159038","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f83ef26ea3da6365bba53b8a5773cfe3dbbf0a69acbcd9c1c468a1eea278b59595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"09:16:39 - 09:18:33","影片長度":"00:01:54","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T09:16:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T09:18:33+08:00","duration":114,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.35096875,"end":7.759718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.2915937500000005,"end":6.578468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.29534375,"end":113.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.56159375,"end":115.16909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.515,"end":5.736,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":9.369,"end":36.59,"text":"非常感謝林錦昭委今天排關於青年基本法的這個詢答青年基本法目前交付到教文委員會審查的委員提案已經有18個版本其中也包含本席的提案顯示委員對於青年基本法的制定是已經有高度的共識因此本席也很期待後續的審查可以順利盡速的通過對下一代對青年世代有利的民生法案"},{"start":37.31,"end":39.312,"text":"行政院為了建構有利青年發展的環境陸續在各個部會各個面向來辦理多項協助青年的相關計畫以顯示青年政策的推動需要跨部會的合作共同的來推動例如財政部有辦理青年安心成家貸款"},{"start":56.008,"end":63.735,"text":"內政部有辦理青年住屋補助教育部則推動青年百億海外圓夢基金計畫衛福部則是祭出青壯世代心理健康的支持方案顯示青年政策並不是由單一個部會就可以來推行"},{"start":72.202,"end":81.608,"text":"需要結合各部會的資源才能為青年打造全方位的福利政策而行政院為了傾聽青年世代的意見也設立了青年諮詢委員會也表示行政院願意廣納青年世代的意見針對青年的需求制定相應的法規推動符合青年期待的政策"},{"start":94.136,"end":111.053,"text":"因此本席也希望行政院要儘速的提出院版在主條審查時候能夠一起來討論讓我們為下一代來努力為下一代打造優質的發展環境做青年的最佳後盾我挺青年基本法實現青年主流化謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159037","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159037","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f5af40eba9077e008ba53b8a5773cfe3dbbf0a69acbcd9c1c4afb211783feff0a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"09:12:40 - 09:16:22","影片長度":"00:03:42","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T09:12:40+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T09:16:22+08:00","duration":222,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":201.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.51846875,"end":220.95846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.751,"end":23.952,"text":"謝謝主席我想青年擁有最新穎的思維跟積極的行動力絕對是推動國家發展促進社會進步的一環那即便現在有不少支持青年的相關政策跟措施但我們常年缺乏一套照顧青年扶持青年有系統性的盤整政策"},{"start":24.833,"end":42.431,"text":"的政策跟法律那以延續性跟長遠性的政策來促進青年主流化所以青年基本法有很多的委員都提出了很多的提出版本顯見大家對於設立一部支持青年的法律有很高的共識那本席在救我"},{"start":43.112,"end":70.705,"text":"自己提出的版本來做一些說明首先有關青年年齡的範圍的界定我國各地方政府的青年諮詢組織成員就有許多不同的範圍有的是15歲到35歲18歲到40歲也有範圍比較大16歲到45歲那本席的草案版本是參照行政院青年諮詢委員會委員的年齡定義"},{"start":71.986,"end":86.832,"text":"以18歲以上至35歲以下為本法所謂的青年不過本席也有參考韓國的相關立法若其他法令與條例中對青年的年齡另有規定者"},{"start":87.912,"end":110.821,"text":"從其規定有這樣的單書那再來青年目前在台灣社會面臨有就學居住創業還有經濟支持以及公共事務參與等較被漠視的困境那本席的版本中也著重在青年的就業創業學習環境居住政策身心健康"},{"start":111.741,"end":139.119,"text":"以及提高生活品質穩定經濟生活文化活動的參與以及國際事務的參與希望以基本法的這個高度來讓以後的執法的訂定有明確的方向那有關於青年事務的單位本席認為需要有專責的單位來進行青年政策的系統性整合那不宜讓權責分散在各部會那本席有考量到"},{"start":139.659,"end":155.305,"text":"目前中央行政機關部會的數量已經飽和那是否要進行調整這可以再研議那本期希望對青年的照顧跟權力的保障至少要有專責單位統合目前業務分散的情形那至於地方政府"},{"start":155.885,"end":177.638,"text":"本席認為單位層級盡可能提高成一級的單位來設置並且要寬列青年事務的預算展現對青年事務的重視跟支持本席也認為為了確定我國青年政策的目標監督實行的成果我覺得我們因應國家發展方向跟社會變遷等等"},{"start":178.078,"end":199.094,"text":"政府應該每四年要擬定青年政策白皮書那每兩年要擬定青年發展政策的綱領作為青年發展政策的施政依據那更重要的是 訂定這個青年政策白皮書以及青年發展政策的綱領除了相關的部會 學者專家外也要有青年代表來參與"},{"start":201.876,"end":220.191,"text":"確保貼近青年們的真實需求本席期待透過青年基本法的立法以基本法的各高度來加強各單位青年政策的聯繫與合作以宣示我國不分行政立法攜手支持青年的決心落實青年主流化大家一起加油 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159036","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159036","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f3a8c91775bd9b490ba53b8a5773cfe3dbbf0a69acbcd9c1ca443fcc4334c3ed75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:09:58 - 09:12:28","影片長度":"00:02:30","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T09:09:58+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T09:12:28+08:00","duration":150,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":42.572843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.43346875,"end":58.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.469093750000006,"end":148.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.45909375000002,"end":149.96534375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.149,"end":28.124,"text":"著重在有關於青年人人才以及未來的青年有關於如何來培養他們的金融素養我們都知道普惠金融其實是不論金管會或者是其他相當的我們政府財政相關單位非常重視的一個部分可是我認為在相關著重青年的議題當中有關於青年如何能夠擁有普惠金融的素養更為重要而我們在才"},{"start":28.644,"end":57.318,"text":"相關的政策制定的過程當中有沒有考量到青年的需要我想在這棟大樓的樓上也是九樓大禮堂是財政委員會央行現在正在做專案的報告而另外我想在過去我在財政委員會的過程當中也常常提到從山到猴子的一生我們看到的是許多青年在面對自己融資借款或者是金融資訊當中其實是有許多需要完備"},{"start":58.559,"end":73.962,"text":"而我們的政策包括在前一陣子財政委員會討論非常激烈的就是有關於清安貸款的等等這些政策的制定到底是幫了青年一把還是其實設下了許多重重的陷阱"},{"start":74.463,"end":94.071,"text":"根據金融元序院在2022年台灣金融生活調查的報告當中顯示有78.1%的民眾金融素養偏低而其中20到29歲的青年族群是最難抵抗金融風險更容易誤觸金融陷阱跟詐騙"},{"start":95.411,"end":119.102,"text":"顯示政府對於青年金融教育的介入跟支持還有我們政策自定的部分有許多改善的空間有的時候我們想做但是卻做的不到位或者是做的不是他們需要的因此本席所提出來的青年基本法當中非常高興主席有邀請到了財政跟金管會相關單位的官員列席但是本席必須說層級不夠高"},{"start":121.403,"end":147.117,"text":"那麼我希望今天既然來了這些訊息能夠帶回去給這兩個部會的主管希望他們把青年放在心上所以本席所提出來的版本當中特別加入了青年金融素養概要在我們推動青年基本法的同時要納入提升青年金融素養的相關概念而政策的制定當中一定要傾聽青年的聲音謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16510","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16510","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6856d254b92567b84cebdae56b7a60aa52c7a524d1b3d409a1a460d120dae727c155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【如遇加開院會本次會議取消，不再另行通知】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-13T08:31:07+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T14:19:00+08:00","duration":20873,"影片長度":"05:47:53","委員發言時間":"08:31:07 - 14:19:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":723.0234687500001,"end":723.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":725.9765937500001,"end":726.8034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":726.9722187500001,"end":727.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":727.90034375,"end":730.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":732.08534375,"end":732.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":745.61909375,"end":746.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":747.3572187500001,"end":748.4878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1786.7897187500002,"end":1791.6834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1795.8009687500003,"end":1797.0497187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1797.67409375,"end":1799.0409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1799.2603437500002,"end":1799.2772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1799.2772187500002,"end":1799.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1799.76659375,"end":1799.9690937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1799.9690937500002,"end":1801.9434687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1801.9434687500002,"end":1804.1878437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1801.9940937500003,"end":1802.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":1802.01096875,"end":1802.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1802.02784375,"end":1802.3653437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1804.7447187500002,"end":1866.5409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1869.2072187500003,"end":1873.5440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1876.1090937500003,"end":1877.9990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1878.5897187500002,"end":1889.5753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1889.7947187500001,"end":1894.1990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1898.1140937500002,"end":1899.1097187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1901.43846875,"end":1902.6365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1906.78784375,"end":1910.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1911.69846875,"end":1912.9303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1915.4784687500003,"end":1917.1659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1920.0853437500002,"end":1922.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1924.35471875,"end":1926.4134687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1926.7172187500003,"end":1926.8015937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1928.72534375,"end":1933.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1936.4203437500003,"end":1938.6815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1940.2847187500001,"end":1942.3940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1943.6934687500002,"end":1943.9972187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1947.6759687500003,"end":1950.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1950.81471875,"end":1950.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1950.8653437500002,"end":1950.8822187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1950.9665937500001,"end":1951.0340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1951.5740937500002,"end":1952.7553437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1954.4934687500001,"end":1955.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1959.0834687500003,"end":1959.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1963.2178437500002,"end":1966.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1966.8628437500001,"end":1969.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1971.2334687500002,"end":1974.2203437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1975.7222187500001,"end":1976.6165937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1978.5572187500002,"end":1978.9115937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":1985.7122187500001,"end":1988.5640937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":1997.0522187500003,"end":2014.1972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2014.7034687500002,"end":2017.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2018.0953437500002,"end":2033.4347187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2033.7215937500002,"end":2035.9828437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2036.7590937500001,"end":2037.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2037.4003437500003,"end":2046.3440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2046.5128437500002,"end":2078.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2078.52471875,"end":2087.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2087.94096875,"end":2090.1853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2090.9278437500006,"end":2092.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2092.7165937500004,"end":2093.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2094.08346875,"end":2095.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2096.42909375,"end":2098.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2099.3990937500002,"end":2102.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2103.76971875,"end":2106.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2106.60471875,"end":2107.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2107.8028437500006,"end":2111.2115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2111.49846875,"end":2112.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2113.3209687500002,"end":2115.6328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2115.8522187500002,"end":2120.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2120.4928437500002,"end":2123.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2124.15471875,"end":2130.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2131.61346875,"end":2137.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2137.5703437500006,"end":2145.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2146.3115937500006,"end":2147.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2147.4928437500002,"end":2158.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2158.98471875,"end":2163.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2163.6084687500006,"end":2165.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2166.27471875,"end":2167.3378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2167.79346875,"end":2168.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2168.7215937500005,"end":2185.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2186.6259687500005,"end":2205.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2206.35284375,"end":2209.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2209.8965937500006,"end":2213.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2213.22096875,"end":2222.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2223.36284375,"end":2232.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2232.86346875,"end":2234.9053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2235.1922187500004,"end":2237.1159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2237.6053437500004,"end":2246.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2246.97096875,"end":2267.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2268.3347187500003,"end":2291.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2292.4997187500003,"end":2308.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2308.1934687500006,"end":2308.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2312.98596875,"end":2314.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2315.55096875,"end":2321.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2323.87034375,"end":2324.8659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2325.2372187500005,"end":2328.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2329.42221875,"end":2330.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2330.51909375,"end":2334.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2334.85596875,"end":2339.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2340.0028437500005,"end":2348.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":2348.4909687500003,"end":2352.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2360.21909375,"end":2361.8053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2368.5047187500004,"end":2369.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2369.07846875,"end":2381.1609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2381.54909375,"end":2387.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2383.9959687500004,"end":2384.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2387.45534375,"end":2403.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2403.50346875,"end":2406.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2405.41034375,"end":2413.8815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2411.63721875,"end":2412.3797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2413.67909375,"end":2417.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2418.7584687500002,"end":2421.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2421.27284375,"end":2489.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2489.80221875,"end":2493.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2493.0928437500006,"end":2493.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2493.12659375,"end":2493.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2493.54846875,"end":2498.3240937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2494.9997187500003,"end":2495.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2498.3240937500004,"end":2498.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2498.35784375,"end":2523.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2524.2947187500004,"end":2540.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2541.2372187500005,"end":2560.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2560.30596875,"end":2563.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2564.03534375,"end":2593.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2571.7303437500004,"end":2571.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2571.9665937500004,"end":2572.1522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2594.1572187500005,"end":2610.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2611.70721875,"end":2660.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2636.00721875,"end":2636.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2636.0240937500002,"end":2636.5303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2660.22284375,"end":2662.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2662.9734687500004,"end":2667.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2667.34409375,"end":2667.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2667.36096875,"end":2667.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2667.71534375,"end":2668.3397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2668.3397187500004,"end":2668.9303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2668.42409375,"end":2673.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2668.9303437500002,"end":2669.6559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2669.6559687500003,"end":2669.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2673.55409375,"end":2679.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2679.4265937500004,"end":2681.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2681.5528437500006,"end":2688.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2688.57284375,"end":2704.5703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2702.91659375,"end":2707.1690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2706.1903437500005,"end":2716.2478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2708.45159375,"end":2709.7003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2710.20659375,"end":2711.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2712.2653437500003,"end":2713.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2714.3409687500007,"end":2715.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2715.7584687500002,"end":2718.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2717.59784375,"end":2733.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2718.99846875,"end":2719.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2728.11096875,"end":2731.7559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2732.80221875,"end":2734.8103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2734.11846875,"end":2739.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2735.8565937500007,"end":2736.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2738.4215937500003,"end":2739.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2739.24846875,"end":2746.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2739.2653437500003,"end":2739.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2739.31596875,"end":2739.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2740.09221875,"end":2740.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2742.20159375,"end":2744.7159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2745.74534375,"end":2747.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2746.6397187500006,"end":2752.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2748.2428437500002,"end":2748.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2749.7784687500007,"end":2750.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2750.9090937500005,"end":2781.8409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2781.9590937500006,"end":2811.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2788.43909375,"end":2788.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2796.3365937500002,"end":2796.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2811.7097187500003,"end":2816.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2816.7215937500005,"end":2847.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2846.3203437500006,"end":2849.5603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2847.24846875,"end":2847.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2847.90659375,"end":2848.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2849.5603437500004,"end":2849.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2849.66159375,"end":2855.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2852.31096875,"end":2853.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2854.11659375,"end":2897.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2896.79346875,"end":2898.9365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2899.00409375,"end":2902.7334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2899.3415937500004,"end":2901.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2901.6365937500004,"end":2907.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2903.00346875,"end":2903.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2903.17221875,"end":2903.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2904.03284375,"end":2905.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2905.65284375,"end":2908.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2907.86346875,"end":2908.9434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2908.60596875,"end":2929.0753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2929.5984687500004,"end":2959.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2959.3659687500003,"end":2962.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2962.47096875,"end":2971.1953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2971.5497187500005,"end":2975.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2976.1228437500004,"end":2977.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2977.72596875,"end":2981.3034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2982.0459687500006,"end":2993.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2994.43221875,"end":3010.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2999.07284375,"end":3002.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3008.40471875,"end":3032.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3015.3572187500004,"end":3016.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3016.23471875,"end":3016.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3025.9040937500004,"end":3026.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3032.0634687500005,"end":3057.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3042.0028437500005,"end":3042.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3042.9647187500004,"end":3043.0997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3043.0997187500006,"end":3043.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3044.26409375,"end":3044.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3044.31471875,"end":3044.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3044.97284375,"end":3045.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3049.3097187500007,"end":3050.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3050.03534375,"end":3050.3897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3050.3897187500006,"end":3050.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3055.84034375,"end":3123.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3065.52659375,"end":3065.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3124.0153437500003,"end":3151.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3151.9434687500006,"end":3156.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3154.8290937500005,"end":3155.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3156.65159375,"end":3158.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3157.69784375,"end":3161.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3162.50721875,"end":3178.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3177.7115937500002,"end":3179.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3178.84221875,"end":3179.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3179.7703437500004,"end":3193.0847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3191.5997187500006,"end":3199.7334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3196.3415937500004,"end":3196.6959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3200.0203437500004,"end":3200.3747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3200.23971875,"end":3208.1709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3206.8209687500002,"end":3209.6222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3208.7615937500004,"end":3210.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3210.60096875,"end":3213.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3211.32659375,"end":3211.7315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3212.76096875,"end":3214.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3214.9040937500004,"end":3219.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3214.93784375,"end":3216.3047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3217.8065937500005,"end":3218.9034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3219.51096875,"end":3223.9997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3222.04221875,"end":3228.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3228.74159375,"end":3231.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3231.1884687500005,"end":3234.1247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3232.65659375,"end":3236.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3235.49159375,"end":3240.1153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3239.2715937500006,"end":3251.3034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3241.0772187500006,"end":3241.9209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3243.2540937500007,"end":3243.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3246.17346875,"end":3248.1815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3249.5822187500007,"end":3257.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3257.2265937500006,"end":3257.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3257.73284375,"end":3259.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3258.1378437500007,"end":3266.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3266.2715937500006,"end":3266.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3266.3053437500002,"end":3268.3809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3267.4190937500007,"end":3281.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3270.4228437500005,"end":3271.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3274.2197187500005,"end":3277.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3279.0459687500006,"end":3279.9572187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3281.54346875,"end":3284.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3284.7159687500007,"end":3285.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3285.2390937500004,"end":3289.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3288.10784375,"end":3288.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3288.8165937500007,"end":3294.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3292.15784375,"end":3292.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3293.6259687500005,"end":3310.5684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3298.53659375,"end":3299.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3300.94971875,"end":3301.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3301.77659375,"end":3301.8103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3303.2109687500006,"end":3303.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3303.24471875,"end":3303.7340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3305.21909375,"end":3305.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3305.40471875,"end":3305.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3310.3659687500003,"end":3314.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3310.5684687500006,"end":3310.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3310.6022187500002,"end":3310.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3310.95659375,"end":3311.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3313.16721875,"end":3319.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3318.60096875,"end":3319.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":3319.9678437500006,"end":3321.0984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":3322.0603437500004,"end":3324.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":3324.69284375,"end":3327.9159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3338.80034375,"end":3340.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":3340.9265937500004,"end":3341.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":3346.5459687500006,"end":3346.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3346.9678437500006,"end":3347.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3347.28846875,"end":3347.3728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3347.6090937500003,"end":3348.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3349.65096875,"end":3372.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3372.4490937500004,"end":3372.8203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3372.71909375,"end":3374.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3374.96346875,"end":3376.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3376.58346875,"end":3398.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3399.06096875,"end":3399.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3400.3097187500007,"end":3421.2853437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3421.2853437500007,"end":3421.7072187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3422.14596875,"end":3425.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3425.5378437500003,"end":3427.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3428.3728437500004,"end":3431.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3432.0515937500004,"end":3434.9372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3435.3759687500005,"end":3440.5565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3441.01221875,"end":3446.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3447.1209687500004,"end":3456.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3456.9928437500002,"end":3522.8728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3523.02471875,"end":3537.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3537.18284375,"end":3540.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3540.76034375,"end":3542.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3542.97096875,"end":3544.8103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3543.7978437500005,"end":3584.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3585.15846875,"end":3585.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3586.4747187500006,"end":3597.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3598.06784375,"end":3599.3165937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3598.1015937500006,"end":3598.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3599.6709687500006,"end":3606.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3603.06284375,"end":3606.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3607.1297187500004,"end":3610.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3609.82971875,"end":3612.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3611.43284375,"end":3710.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3683.10096875,"end":3683.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3710.21909375,"end":3755.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3755.4103437500007,"end":3782.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3772.1334687500002,"end":3774.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3774.6140937500004,"end":3775.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3782.5284687500007,"end":3817.6622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3818.28659375,"end":3823.1465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3818.64096875,"end":3819.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3819.29909375,"end":3819.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3819.97409375,"end":3820.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3823.72034375,"end":3825.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3826.3190937500003,"end":3851.4122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3850.0790937500005,"end":3862.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3862.8365937500002,"end":3869.3165937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3869.6203437500008,"end":3877.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3877.8553437500004,"end":3887.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3887.8115937500006,"end":3888.1153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3888.48659375,"end":3898.0547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3898.9997187500003,"end":3907.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3907.23471875,"end":3918.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3918.01784375,"end":3956.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3953.8097187500007,"end":3958.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3957.7078437500004,"end":3960.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3961.0322187500005,"end":3991.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3979.18971875,"end":3979.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":3979.2234687500004,"end":3979.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3979.51034375,"end":3979.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3992.1328437500006,"end":3999.7097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3999.81096875,"end":4005.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4005.0253437500005,"end":4039.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4040.49659375,"end":4054.6715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4054.9753437500003,"end":4079.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4072.8797187500004,"end":4073.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4073.3522187500002,"end":4073.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4077.9422187500004,"end":4078.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4079.17409375,"end":4079.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4079.89971875,"end":4084.3209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4084.8947187500007,"end":4085.7384687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4085.9747187500006,"end":4089.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4089.5859687500006,"end":4099.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4094.42909375,"end":4094.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4099.8290937500005,"end":4101.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4101.14534375,"end":4103.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4103.32221875,"end":4109.987843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4110.44346875,"end":4130.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4129.24221875,"end":4130.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4131.030968749999,"end":4137.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4136.39721875,"end":4137.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4137.71346875,"end":4138.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4138.00034375,"end":4139.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4139.384093750001,"end":4140.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4140.61596875,"end":4145.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4146.606593750001,"end":4147.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4148.5809687500005,"end":4151.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4148.614718750001,"end":4148.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4148.96909375,"end":4149.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4152.1415937500005,"end":4153.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4154.35221875,"end":4157.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4157.54159375,"end":4158.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4159.870343750001,"end":4159.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":4159.9715937500005,"end":4160.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4160.03909375,"end":4160.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4164.84846875,"end":4166.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4171.09221875,"end":4171.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4172.50971875,"end":4173.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4173.370343750001,"end":4190.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4191.00471875,"end":4199.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4200.11721875,"end":4211.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4212.368468750001,"end":4222.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4222.88159375,"end":4228.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4228.669718749999,"end":4233.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4233.61409375,"end":4251.687218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4251.687218749999,"end":4252.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4252.0584687499995,"end":4253.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4253.77971875,"end":4268.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4258.487843749999,"end":4258.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4258.74096875,"end":4258.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4268.68034375,"end":4269.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4270.38471875,"end":4272.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4272.460343750001,"end":4274.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4273.13534375,"end":4275.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4274.856593750001,"end":4301.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4301.620343750001,"end":4319.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4319.997218750001,"end":4323.878468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4320.790343750001,"end":4326.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4324.215968750001,"end":4325.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4325.481593750001,"end":4351.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4326.71346875,"end":4333.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4341.968468749999,"end":4342.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4342.170968750001,"end":4342.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4342.255343750001,"end":4342.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4342.93034375,"end":4343.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4350.15284375,"end":4360.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4360.581593749999,"end":4365.829718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4366.47096875,"end":4376.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4376.798468749999,"end":4382.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4378.04721875,"end":4378.064093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4378.064093749999,"end":4379.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4381.776593750001,"end":4383.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4382.50221875,"end":4387.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4388.155343750001,"end":4416.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4410.85221875,"end":4411.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4413.265343749999,"end":4414.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4416.38721875,"end":4421.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4420.57221875,"end":4420.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4421.97284375,"end":4426.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4426.630343750001,"end":4429.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4430.528468750001,"end":4431.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4431.70971875,"end":4436.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4436.26596875,"end":4436.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4436.468468749999,"end":4439.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4439.50596875,"end":4444.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4445.39534375,"end":4448.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4445.41221875,"end":4445.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4446.76221875,"end":4447.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4448.6522187499995,"end":4460.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4464.80159375,"end":4465.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4470.91034375,"end":4471.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4472.3447187500005,"end":4523.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4523.27346875,"end":4545.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4541.245343750001,"end":4541.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4541.31284375,"end":4541.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4541.44784375,"end":4541.565968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4545.24471875,"end":4555.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4554.20534375,"end":4554.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4555.36971875,"end":4557.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4555.6903437500005,"end":4557.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4557.86721875,"end":4568.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4558.542218750001,"end":4559.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4569.089093750001,"end":4571.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4575.045968750001,"end":4583.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4582.015343749999,"end":4582.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4583.382218750001,"end":4583.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4583.78721875,"end":4591.954718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4589.946593750001,"end":4633.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4593.33846875,"end":4594.064093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4634.614718750001,"end":4656.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4657.09221875,"end":4661.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4658.22284375,"end":4658.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4658.69534375,"end":4658.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4658.712218750001,"end":4658.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4661.007218750001,"end":4661.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4661.41221875,"end":4661.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4661.614718750001,"end":4662.222218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4661.614718750001,"end":4670.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4662.222218749999,"end":4662.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4670.32221875,"end":4680.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4674.034718749999,"end":4674.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4681.020968750001,"end":4703.515343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4697.92971875,"end":4700.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4701.81096875,"end":4702.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4703.44784375,"end":4703.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4703.515343749999,"end":4703.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4703.751593749999,"end":4704.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4704.3084687499995,"end":4712.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4713.33659375,"end":4718.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4719.225968750001,"end":4723.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4724.03534375,"end":4726.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4726.38096875,"end":4733.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4733.704718749999,"end":4735.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4734.00846875,"end":4734.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4734.970343749999,"end":4744.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4736.64096875,"end":4739.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4745.07846875,"end":4747.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4747.6434687500005,"end":4761.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4762.5272187499995,"end":4775.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4775.79096875,"end":4776.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4776.0947187500005,"end":4785.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4781.96721875,"end":4782.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4783.6209687499995,"end":4798.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4786.624718749999,"end":4788.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4798.251593749999,"end":4802.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4804.37721875,"end":4805.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4808.64659375,"end":4809.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4812.780968749999,"end":4813.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4813.962218750001,"end":4816.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4816.47659375,"end":4816.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4817.26971875,"end":4826.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4824.05346875,"end":4830.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4832.339093750001,"end":4833.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4833.95909375,"end":4838.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4839.47721875,"end":4840.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4841.35034375,"end":4856.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4857.229718750001,"end":4858.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4858.61346875,"end":4865.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4866.780968749999,"end":4868.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4868.95784375,"end":4871.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4872.417218750001,"end":4880.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4880.888468749999,"end":4882.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4883.26784375,"end":4884.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4884.39846875,"end":4886.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4886.72721875,"end":4888.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4889.12346875,"end":4903.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4894.5740937499995,"end":4894.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":4894.590968750001,"end":4896.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4896.835343750001,"end":4896.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4904.108468750001,"end":4914.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4915.347218750001,"end":4917.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4917.8447187500005,"end":4921.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4925.2528437500005,"end":4931.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4931.88471875,"end":4933.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4933.538468750001,"end":4935.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4935.5634687500005,"end":4941.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4939.815968750001,"end":4944.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4944.54096875,"end":4950.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4950.548468749999,"end":4951.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4951.84784375,"end":4953.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4953.7040937500005,"end":4986.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4987.31909375,"end":5009.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5009.796593749999,"end":5015.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5014.52159375,"end":5028.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5019.11159375,"end":5019.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5028.44346875,"end":5028.595343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5028.595343749999,"end":5042.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5042.432843750001,"end":5046.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5045.841593749999,"end":5050.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5048.25471875,"end":5060.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5058.6834687499995,"end":5074.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5074.2928437499995,"end":5078.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5078.49471875,"end":5080.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5080.75596875,"end":5087.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5086.122218750001,"end":5096.2303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5088.61971875,"end":5090.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5092.298468749999,"end":5092.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5096.83784375,"end":5096.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5096.854718750001,"end":5096.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5096.905343750001,"end":5097.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5096.92221875,"end":5097.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5097.411593750001,"end":5097.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5097.42846875,"end":5097.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5097.86721875,"end":5097.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5097.884093750001,"end":5097.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5097.90096875,"end":5100.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5101.41096875,"end":5111.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5111.73846875,"end":5117.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5116.75034375,"end":5126.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5127.82034375,"end":5129.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5128.157843749999,"end":5128.731593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":5131.482218749999,"end":5133.642218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5144.30721875,"end":5146.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5153.72346875,"end":5154.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5154.651593750001,"end":5157.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5157.38534375,"end":5162.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5162.717843750001,"end":5168.235968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5168.74221875,"end":5169.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5169.72096875,"end":5171.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5171.45909375,"end":5176.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5176.89284375,"end":5183.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5183.8622187500005,"end":5184.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5184.33471875,"end":5186.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5186.86596875,"end":5188.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5188.33409375,"end":5188.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5188.350968750001,"end":5188.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5188.38471875,"end":5202.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5201.81721875,"end":5215.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5216.3465937500005,"end":5228.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5229.07034375,"end":5235.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5236.69784375,"end":5240.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5240.562218749999,"end":5244.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5244.3084687499995,"end":5246.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5246.97471875,"end":5277.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5254.12971875,"end":5257.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5276.573468750001,"end":5292.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5292.2840937500005,"end":5294.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5293.718468749999,"end":5293.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5293.7353437500005,"end":5293.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5293.9715937500005,"end":5294.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5294.427218750001,"end":5294.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5295.20346875,"end":5314.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5300.58659375,"end":5300.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5302.84784375,"end":5303.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5306.08784375,"end":5306.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5306.104718750001,"end":5306.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5309.86784375,"end":5311.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5314.019093750001,"end":5317.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5317.967843750001,"end":5318.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5318.32221875,"end":5334.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5327.82284375,"end":5327.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5327.8397187499995,"end":5328.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5328.48096875,"end":5328.548468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5335.112843750001,"end":5344.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5344.88346875,"end":5351.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5348.663468750001,"end":5350.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5350.46909375,"end":5371.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5371.917218750001,"end":5378.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5379.71346875,"end":5384.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5384.97846875,"end":5389.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5389.0790937500005,"end":5389.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5390.378468750001,"end":5392.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5392.84221875,"end":5394.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5394.698468750001,"end":5399.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5399.659718750001,"end":5408.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5408.4178437499995,"end":5410.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5410.64534375,"end":5413.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5414.22284375,"end":5418.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5418.5428437499995,"end":5445.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5423.11596875,"end":5424.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5445.087218750001,"end":5446.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5445.4247187500005,"end":5446.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5446.4540937500005,"end":5464.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5448.090968750001,"end":5448.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5462.60346875,"end":5474.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5467.159718750001,"end":5469.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5474.247218750001,"end":5517.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5518.1053437499995,"end":5528.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5528.97284375,"end":5554.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5554.50471875,"end":5564.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5564.5790937500005,"end":5572.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5572.1728437500005,"end":5581.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5581.74096875,"end":5583.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5583.9178437499995,"end":5587.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5587.866593750001,"end":5589.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5589.58784375,"end":5609.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5610.276593750001,"end":5612.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5613.263468749999,"end":5623.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5624.2997187500005,"end":5630.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5631.11721875,"end":5633.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5634.323468750001,"end":5635.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5636.905343750001,"end":5638.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5639.419718749999,"end":5642.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5642.72721875,"end":5646.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5648.02596875,"end":5650.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5650.1522187499995,"end":5650.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5650.304093750001,"end":5652.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5651.73846875,"end":5653.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5654.40471875,"end":5665.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5660.479718750001,"end":5661.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5662.909718750001,"end":5670.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5671.482218749999,"end":5676.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5676.15659375,"end":5680.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5680.763468749999,"end":5685.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5684.054093750001,"end":5687.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5688.89721875,"end":5694.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5689.18409375,"end":5690.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5690.145968750001,"end":5690.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5694.82034375,"end":5696.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5698.19534375,"end":5699.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5700.38909375,"end":5701.064093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5701.36784375,"end":5705.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5705.73846875,"end":5706.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5706.464093750001,"end":5706.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5706.649718750001,"end":5706.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5706.76784375,"end":5710.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5706.81846875,"end":5707.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5710.98659375,"end":5712.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5713.0115937499995,"end":5716.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5714.6990937499995,"end":5715.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5715.880343750001,"end":5720.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5716.33596875,"end":5717.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5720.68971875,"end":5731.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5731.89471875,"end":5768.142218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5738.25659375,"end":5739.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5767.46721875,"end":5767.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5767.585343750001,"end":5772.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5768.1590937500005,"end":5768.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5768.294093750001,"end":5768.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5771.888468749999,"end":5773.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5772.63096875,"end":5772.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5772.884093750001,"end":5779.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5777.22096875,"end":5777.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5779.2459687499995,"end":5781.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5780.477843750001,"end":5781.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5781.10221875,"end":5786.890343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5786.333468750001,"end":5788.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5787.464093750001,"end":5797.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5789.45534375,"end":5790.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5792.948468750001,"end":5793.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5798.196593750001,"end":5804.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5799.090968750001,"end":5799.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5802.735968749999,"end":5806.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5805.689093749999,"end":5809.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5807.35971875,"end":5807.798468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5808.47346875,"end":5815.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5816.0165937500005,"end":5817.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5817.653468750001,"end":5820.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5821.8553437499995,"end":5823.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5823.94784375,"end":5826.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5827.28909375,"end":5828.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5828.97659375,"end":5828.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5828.993468750001,"end":5829.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5829.56721875,"end":5829.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5829.58409375,"end":5853.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5853.95159375,"end":5900.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5900.712218750001,"end":5901.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5902.298468750001,"end":5902.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5903.04096875,"end":5907.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5907.327218750001,"end":5917.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5914.3134687500005,"end":5914.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5917.671593749999,"end":5940.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5917.722218750001,"end":5918.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5936.706593750001,"end":5937.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5941.347218750001,"end":5954.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5942.376593750001,"end":5942.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5951.59034375,"end":5957.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5955.0497187500005,"end":5955.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5957.73284375,"end":5968.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5957.749718749999,"end":5960.517218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5968.634093750001,"end":5976.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5968.70159375,"end":5968.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5976.43034375,"end":5977.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5977.22346875,"end":5982.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5978.74221875,"end":5980.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5981.6278437500005,"end":5982.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5982.35346875,"end":5984.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5984.850968750001,"end":5987.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5985.4247187500005,"end":5985.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5987.145968750001,"end":5987.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5988.225968750001,"end":5991.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5988.25971875,"end":5988.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5989.50846875,"end":5989.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5989.79534375,"end":5990.048468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5990.048468750001,"end":5990.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5990.68971875,"end":5991.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5991.280343750001,"end":5991.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5991.58409375,"end":6000.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6000.86534375,"end":6003.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6001.489718750001,"end":6001.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6003.29534375,"end":6005.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6004.763468749999,"end":6005.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":6005.185343749999,"end":6005.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":6005.607218749999,"end":6007.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":6007.817843750001,"end":6014.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6020.72721875,"end":6022.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6029.384093750001,"end":6030.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6031.64534375,"end":6037.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6038.294093750001,"end":6040.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6040.3865937499995,"end":6047.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6044.11596875,"end":6045.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6047.74409375,"end":6047.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6047.845343750001,"end":6047.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6048.16596875,"end":6050.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6051.25409375,"end":6052.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6052.28346875,"end":6052.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6052.89096875,"end":6054.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6054.34221875,"end":6055.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6055.0340937500005,"end":6055.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6055.74284375,"end":6055.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6055.84409375,"end":6057.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6055.8778437500005,"end":6056.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6057.00846875,"end":6057.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6057.02534375,"end":6057.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6057.1434687500005,"end":6057.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6057.16034375,"end":6057.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6057.19409375,"end":6061.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6058.24034375,"end":6058.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6061.61534375,"end":6063.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6063.94409375,"end":6064.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6065.294093750001,"end":6068.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6069.968468749999,"end":6069.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6069.9853437500005,"end":6070.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6070.862843750001,"end":6078.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6079.51971875,"end":6083.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6082.827218750001,"end":6083.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6083.68784375,"end":6085.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6085.98284375,"end":6087.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6087.82221875,"end":6087.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6087.839093750001,"end":6087.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6087.99096875,"end":6088.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6088.024718750001,"end":6088.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6088.04159375,"end":6088.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6088.075343750001,"end":6088.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6088.109093749999,"end":6088.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6088.1259687500005,"end":6089.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6089.50971875,"end":6090.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6090.06659375,"end":6090.218468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6091.247843749999,"end":6101.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6102.132218750001,"end":6106.907843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6107.093468749999,"end":6110.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6111.042218750001,"end":6112.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6112.88159375,"end":6114.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6114.9403437500005,"end":6115.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6116.50971875,"end":6118.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6119.63159375,"end":6125.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6125.77409375,"end":6128.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6129.14909375,"end":6129.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6130.56659375,"end":6133.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6134.41409375,"end":6137.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6139.155968749999,"end":6139.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6140.151593750001,"end":6145.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6146.091593749999,"end":6149.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6148.589093750001,"end":6148.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6149.02784375,"end":6150.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6149.567843750001,"end":6150.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6150.61409375,"end":6150.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6150.63096875,"end":6153.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6150.749093750001,"end":6159.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6155.2040937500005,"end":6155.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6157.41471875,"end":6157.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6159.034718750001,"end":6159.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6160.6884687500005,"end":6160.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6160.722218750001,"end":6165.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6162.00471875,"end":6162.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6167.21909375,"end":6168.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6169.59846875,"end":6172.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6172.3153437500005,"end":6175.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6175.538468750001,"end":6181.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6177.39471875,"end":6177.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6181.93409375,"end":6182.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6182.2040937500005,"end":6182.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6182.25471875,"end":6182.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6182.27159375,"end":6184.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6185.055968750001,"end":6185.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6186.642218750001,"end":6187.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6188.31284375,"end":6192.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6192.02534375,"end":6192.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6192.05909375,"end":6193.577843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6192.10971875,"end":6196.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6197.2059687500005,"end":6197.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6197.239718750001,"end":6207.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6207.85409375,"end":6208.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6208.107218749999,"end":6208.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6208.19159375,"end":6219.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6208.74846875,"end":6209.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6217.118468750001,"end":6217.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6219.76784375,"end":6225.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6226.3153437500005,"end":6229.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6229.97721875,"end":6236.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6236.74409375,"end":6239.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6236.794718749999,"end":6237.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6239.849093750001,"end":6243.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6244.42221875,"end":6245.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6245.18159375,"end":6245.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6245.2997187500005,"end":6245.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6245.97471875,"end":6255.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6256.116593750001,"end":6266.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6264.739718750001,"end":6272.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6271.94534375,"end":6272.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6273.1434687500005,"end":6274.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6274.442843750001,"end":6275.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6274.780343750001,"end":6285.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6285.276593750001,"end":6288.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6289.309718750001,"end":6289.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6289.529093749999,"end":6292.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6289.579718750001,"end":6291.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6292.2459687499995,"end":6311.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6296.81909375,"end":6297.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6297.10596875,"end":6297.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6297.1903437500005,"end":6297.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6308.243468750001,"end":6309.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6309.593468749999,"end":6309.829718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6310.94346875,"end":6317.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6317.845343750001,"end":6330.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6320.73096875,"end":6321.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6322.46909375,"end":6322.485968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6322.5028437500005,"end":6322.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6330.06284375,"end":6342.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6340.626593750001,"end":6354.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6354.90284375,"end":6357.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6357.40034375,"end":6362.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6362.1590937500005,"end":6367.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6366.42846875,"end":6366.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6367.491593750001,"end":6367.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6368.31846875,"end":6375.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6373.19534375,"end":6373.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6373.212218750001,"end":6374.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6376.485968750001,"end":6381.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6382.89846875,"end":6383.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6383.97846875,"end":6384.265343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6385.00784375,"end":6407.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6394.575968749999,"end":6396.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6397.03971875,"end":6398.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6407.9072187500005,"end":6412.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6411.788468750001,"end":6411.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6413.02034375,"end":6415.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6413.155343750001,"end":6430.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6418.015343749999,"end":6418.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6429.3553437499995,"end":6439.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6437.185343749999,"end":6437.657843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6438.029093749999,"end":6440.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6441.01596875,"end":6452.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6441.134093750001,"end":6441.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6444.52596875,"end":6446.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6452.08596875,"end":6452.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6452.49096875,"end":6453.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6452.50784375,"end":6452.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6453.874718749999,"end":6462.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6463.03784375,"end":6464.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6464.337218750001,"end":6467.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6468.4715937500005,"end":6470.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6470.952218750001,"end":6471.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6471.880343750001,"end":6474.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6476.014718750001,"end":6477.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6477.39846875,"end":6477.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6478.107218749999,"end":6484.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6485.059718750001,"end":6502.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6493.024718750001,"end":6496.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6501.360968750001,"end":6502.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6502.812218749999,"end":6503.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6505.7147187499995,"end":6508.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6508.954718750001,"end":6514.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6514.97909375,"end":6515.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6515.16471875,"end":6517.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6519.29909375,"end":6523.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6522.404093749999,"end":6535.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6537.979718750001,"end":6539.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6539.4647187499995,"end":6547.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6541.42221875,"end":6542.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6547.868468750001,"end":6549.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6549.404093749999,"end":6603.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6583.18784375,"end":6583.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6583.23846875,"end":6587.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6588.874718749999,"end":6588.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6588.90846875,"end":6588.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6588.99284375,"end":6589.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6589.00971875,"end":6589.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6589.04346875,"end":6589.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6603.032843750001,"end":6603.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6603.91034375,"end":6604.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6604.028468750001,"end":6608.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6604.18034375,"end":6604.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6608.31471875,"end":6611.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6610.32284375,"end":6616.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6616.060343749999,"end":6616.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6616.9715937500005,"end":6620.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6620.92034375,"end":6621.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6622.23659375,"end":6632.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6630.4715937500005,"end":6636.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6638.6728437500005,"end":6639.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6639.280343750001,"end":6639.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6639.364718750001,"end":6642.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6639.71909375,"end":6639.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6639.972218750001,"end":6640.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6640.022843750001,"end":6640.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6643.17846875,"end":6643.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6643.98846875,"end":6644.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6644.427218750001,"end":6644.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6644.91659375,"end":6644.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6644.984093749999,"end":6648.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6648.07221875,"end":6648.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6648.831593750001,"end":6649.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6649.0340937500005,"end":6649.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6650.21534375,"end":6650.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6652.18971875,"end":6657.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6657.25221875,"end":6657.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6657.269093750001,"end":6658.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6657.977843750001,"end":6658.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6658.821593750001,"end":6658.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6658.83846875,"end":6663.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6658.97346875,"end":6659.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6659.17596875,"end":6659.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6663.310343749999,"end":6670.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6670.448468750001,"end":6675.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6670.46534375,"end":6671.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6673.722218750001,"end":6674.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6675.76409375,"end":6683.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6676.69221875,"end":6677.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6683.03721875,"end":6687.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6688.437218749999,"end":6699.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6698.427218750001,"end":6704.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6699.608468750001,"end":6701.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6703.675343750001,"end":6706.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6704.249093750001,"end":6704.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6706.628468750001,"end":6711.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6706.74659375,"end":6706.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6710.35784375,"end":6718.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6719.048468750001,"end":6722.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6723.11534375,"end":6725.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6725.849093750001,"end":6732.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6732.7509687500005,"end":6734.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6735.19784375,"end":6737.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6738.134093750001,"end":6740.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6740.952218750001,"end":6745.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6745.592843750001,"end":6758.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6758.73846875,"end":6770.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6771.02346875,"end":6773.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6772.08659375,"end":6773.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6773.11596875,"end":6773.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6773.35221875,"end":6774.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6774.972218750001,"end":6778.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6778.212218750001,"end":6780.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6778.819718750001,"end":6779.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6782.4647187499995,"end":6782.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6782.49846875,"end":6789.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":6789.14721875,"end":6789.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":6790.9697187500005,"end":6793.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":6793.83846875,"end":6795.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6806.30909375,"end":6808.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6813.2615937499995,"end":6813.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6813.312218749999,"end":6813.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6814.442843750001,"end":6814.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6814.79721875,"end":6815.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6816.40034375,"end":6816.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6817.80096875,"end":6824.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6824.60159375,"end":6829.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6829.64721875,"end":6839.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6839.9072187500005,"end":6846.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6846.505343750001,"end":6847.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6848.49659375,"end":6858.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6858.53721875,"end":6862.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6862.36784375,"end":6870.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6871.32846875,"end":6872.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6872.425343750001,"end":6890.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6891.91596875,"end":6891.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6891.966593749999,"end":6896.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6893.569718750001,"end":6893.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6893.73846875,"end":6893.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6897.417218750001,"end":6905.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6897.48471875,"end":6897.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":6897.56909375,"end":6897.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6903.509093750001,"end":6903.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6905.44971875,"end":6909.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6911.2040937500005,"end":6917.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6918.05534375,"end":6920.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6921.34596875,"end":6929.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6929.12534375,"end":6930.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6930.644093750001,"end":6938.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6940.499093750001,"end":6946.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6947.232218749999,"end":6950.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6947.249093750001,"end":6947.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6947.97471875,"end":6948.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6948.075968749999,"end":6948.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6948.58221875,"end":6948.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6949.020968750001,"end":6949.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6949.22346875,"end":6949.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6949.965968750001,"end":6950.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6950.21909375,"end":6950.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6950.97846875,"end":6959.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6951.130343750001,"end":6952.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6959.2303437499995,"end":6968.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6963.61784375,"end":6963.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6968.477843750001,"end":6971.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6970.435343749999,"end":6977.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6977.7928437499995,"end":6988.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6988.626593750001,"end":6988.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6989.58846875,"end":6993.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6994.347218750001,"end":7008.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7008.85971875,"end":7042.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7042.390343750001,"end":7047.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7047.99284375,"end":7055.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7055.805968750001,"end":7055.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7056.53159375,"end":7080.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7064.44596875,"end":7065.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7079.987843750001,"end":7084.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7083.464093750001,"end":7088.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7087.581593750001,"end":7092.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7092.407843750001,"end":7092.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7092.62721875,"end":7092.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7092.9647187499995,"end":7094.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7094.07846875,"end":7096.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7094.12909375,"end":7094.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7097.74034375,"end":7099.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7100.4403437500005,"end":7107.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7108.00034375,"end":7111.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7111.493468750001,"end":7116.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7111.493468750001,"end":7117.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7117.635968750001,"end":7126.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7127.40659375,"end":7127.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7127.4403437500005,"end":7127.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7127.524718750001,"end":7127.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7127.710343750001,"end":7131.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7132.114718750001,"end":7132.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7132.89096875,"end":7135.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7135.860968750001,"end":7141.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7142.91471875,"end":7144.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7144.65284375,"end":7150.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7150.55909375,"end":7157.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7157.984093750001,"end":7175.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7175.55096875,"end":7185.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7186.671593750001,"end":7208.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7199.564093750001,"end":7199.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7199.5809687500005,"end":7199.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7201.47096875,"end":7203.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7206.85409375,"end":7219.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7219.66221875,"end":7230.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7231.47471875,"end":7234.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7235.32221875,"end":7240.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7240.772843750001,"end":7243.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7243.97909375,"end":7248.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7248.2822187500005,"end":7257.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7257.647843750001,"end":7258.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7258.98096875,"end":7260.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7261.444718750001,"end":7264.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7265.055968750001,"end":7273.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7273.51034375,"end":7276.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7276.46346875,"end":7281.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7282.437218750001,"end":7302.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7302.9403437500005,"end":7315.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7314.702218750001,"end":7316.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7315.765343750001,"end":7321.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7321.78971875,"end":7331.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7332.184718750001,"end":7347.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7347.8447187500005,"end":7350.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7351.067843750001,"end":7353.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7353.80159375,"end":7357.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7357.80096875,"end":7361.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7362.407843750001,"end":7382.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7382.50596875,"end":7384.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7384.075343750001,"end":7385.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7386.269093750001,"end":7390.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7390.94346875,"end":7397.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7398.11534375,"end":7400.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7401.38909375,"end":7407.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7407.58221875,"end":7409.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7408.69596875,"end":7408.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7410.14721875,"end":7422.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7422.280343750001,"end":7423.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7423.866593750001,"end":7437.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7423.88346875,"end":7424.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7437.99096875,"end":7445.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7445.34846875,"end":7453.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7446.29346875,"end":7446.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7447.7615937499995,"end":7447.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7451.997218750001,"end":7458.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7458.966593749999,"end":7463.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7463.77596875,"end":7465.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7463.843468750001,"end":7467.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7466.897843750001,"end":7485.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7470.407843750001,"end":7470.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7472.196593750001,"end":7475.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7476.38159375,"end":7477.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7477.88346875,"end":7478.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7478.760968750001,"end":7481.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7486.4559687500005,"end":7489.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7489.206593750001,"end":7490.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7490.92784375,"end":7491.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7491.417218750001,"end":7497.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7491.450968749999,"end":7491.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7497.6103437500005,"end":7525.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7526.2978437500005,"end":7530.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7530.98909375,"end":7535.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7535.798468750001,"end":7537.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7537.84034375,"end":7538.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7539.07221875,"end":7557.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7557.48284375,"end":7559.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7560.233468750001,"end":7573.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7574.2059687500005,"end":7599.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7575.555968750001,"end":7575.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7597.22346875,"end":7602.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7602.5897187499995,"end":7604.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7605.20534375,"end":7615.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7615.296593750001,"end":7619.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7620.089093750001,"end":7622.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7622.856593750001,"end":7627.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7627.88534375,"end":7643.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7642.482218749999,"end":7646.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7644.91221875,"end":7667.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7648.827218750001,"end":7649.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7654.32846875,"end":7654.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7655.08784375,"end":7655.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7660.622843749999,"end":7660.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7660.65659375,"end":7661.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7661.044718749999,"end":7661.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7667.575343750001,"end":7669.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7669.65096875,"end":7669.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7669.7353437500005,"end":7669.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7669.9715937500005,"end":7673.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7669.98846875,"end":7671.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7673.481593750001,"end":7680.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7681.109093750001,"end":7685.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7686.374093750001,"end":7688.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7688.34846875,"end":7691.892218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7692.229718750001,"end":7695.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7695.80721875,"end":7710.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7710.927218750001,"end":7715.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7716.20909375,"end":7720.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7720.917218750001,"end":7724.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7725.01784375,"end":7729.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7729.911593750001,"end":7730.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7730.654093749999,"end":7735.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7735.64909375,"end":7740.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7740.52596875,"end":7741.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7741.79159375,"end":7743.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7744.71096875,"end":7745.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7745.26784375,"end":7745.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7745.36909375,"end":7745.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7745.72346875,"end":7755.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7755.747218750001,"end":7771.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7770.81659375,"end":7777.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7771.37346875,"end":7772.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7776.48659375,"end":7784.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7782.44346875,"end":7787.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7785.464093750001,"end":7795.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7788.974093750001,"end":7789.4803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7790.2059687500005,"end":7793.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7795.47096875,"end":7809.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7807.485968750001,"end":7807.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7807.70534375,"end":7807.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7807.89096875,"end":7810.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7810.624718750001,"end":7814.657843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7814.69159375,"end":7818.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7819.264718750001,"end":7820.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7821.0028437500005,"end":7828.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7827.98909375,"end":7828.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7828.88346875,"end":7835.802218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7835.009093750001,"end":7840.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7839.278468750001,"end":7843.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7840.9490937499995,"end":7841.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7842.872843749999,"end":7845.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7843.632218750001,"end":7844.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7845.690968750001,"end":7846.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7846.112843750001,"end":7846.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7846.23096875,"end":7846.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7846.33221875,"end":7846.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7846.41659375,"end":7851.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7848.30659375,"end":7851.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7851.597218750001,"end":7856.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7857.25034375,"end":7859.798468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7860.186593750001,"end":7862.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7863.47721875,"end":7866.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7866.835343750001,"end":7892.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7893.1434687500005,"end":7893.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7894.544093750001,"end":7895.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7895.72534375,"end":7901.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7901.614718750001,"end":7904.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7905.782843750001,"end":7936.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7936.967843750001,"end":7940.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7941.372218750001,"end":7943.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7943.9540937500005,"end":7944.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7945.0340937500005,"end":7958.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7958.247218750001,"end":7958.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7958.36534375,"end":7969.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7969.80659375,"end":7969.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7969.84034375,"end":7969.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7969.857218749999,"end":7970.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7970.245343750001,"end":7971.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7972.624718750001,"end":7974.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7975.392218750001,"end":7975.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7976.30346875,"end":7979.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":7982.63159375,"end":7985.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7993.17846875,"end":7995.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8001.3290937500005,"end":8001.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8002.392218750001,"end":8003.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8003.7928437499995,"end":8004.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8004.11346875,"end":8030.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8030.4384687500005,"end":8031.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8031.2147187499995,"end":8045.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8046.4022187499995,"end":8053.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8052.882218750001,"end":8053.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8053.860968750001,"end":8058.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8058.61971875,"end":8067.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8068.13721875,"end":8083.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8083.32471875,"end":8089.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8089.83846875,"end":8099.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8099.25471875,"end":8099.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8099.997218750001,"end":8101.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8100.689093750001,"end":8113.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8113.9697187500005,"end":8157.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8126.288468750001,"end":8126.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8127.739718750001,"end":8128.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8133.122843750001,"end":8133.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8156.241593750001,"end":8160.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8160.7303437499995,"end":8162.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8162.35034375,"end":8177.470343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8177.470343750001,"end":8178.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8178.3309687500005,"end":8189.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8189.805968750001,"end":8192.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8192.40471875,"end":8205.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8205.870968750001,"end":8224.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8225.09159375,"end":8228.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8229.040343749999,"end":8247.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8248.09221875,"end":8249.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8249.813468750002,"end":8264.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8264.29221875,"end":8289.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8290.043468750002,"end":8296.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8296.894718750002,"end":8303.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8303.20596875,"end":8306.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8306.817218750002,"end":8314.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8315.11971875,"end":8320.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8320.418468750002,"end":8340.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8340.617843750002,"end":8340.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8340.95534375,"end":8341.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8341.12409375,"end":8341.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8341.714718750001,"end":8352.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8352.97034375,"end":8355.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8355.282218750002,"end":8358.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8357.67846875,"end":8363.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8364.10784375,"end":8375.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8369.609093750001,"end":8373.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8374.06409375,"end":8381.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8380.915343750003,"end":8380.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8381.067218750002,"end":8381.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8381.792843750001,"end":8407.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8408.337218750003,"end":8412.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8412.387218750002,"end":8412.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8412.52221875,"end":8418.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8418.42846875,"end":8456.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8455.11471875,"end":8487.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8487.329093750002,"end":8487.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8487.46409375,"end":8487.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8487.480968750002,"end":8489.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8487.953468750002,"end":8488.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8489.99534375,"end":8492.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8492.52659375,"end":8494.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8494.922843750002,"end":8495.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8495.294093750003,"end":8500.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8500.879718750002,"end":8530.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8532.11534375,"end":8536.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8536.08096875,"end":8562.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8562.574718750002,"end":8562.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8562.60846875,"end":8575.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8565.51096875,"end":8565.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8575.14659375,"end":8575.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8575.63596875,"end":8592.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":8585.84534375,"end":8586.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8586.081593750001,"end":8586.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8591.886593750001,"end":8592.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8592.477218750002,"end":8624.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8592.527843750002,"end":8592.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8624.10096875,"end":8658.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8659.20096875,"end":8664.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8664.887843750003,"end":8688.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8686.926593750002,"end":8692.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8689.187843750002,"end":8689.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8690.48721875,"end":8702.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8702.02971875,"end":8738.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8739.019718750002,"end":8744.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8745.465968750003,"end":8754.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8754.477218750002,"end":8764.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8764.77096875,"end":8769.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8769.023468750001,"end":8777.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8778.22034375,"end":8791.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8782.86096875,"end":8783.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8790.809093750002,"end":8807.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8807.02596875,"end":8807.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8807.042843750001,"end":8808.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8808.03846875,"end":8813.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8812.999718750001,"end":8813.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8813.421593750001,"end":8819.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8814.113468750002,"end":8816.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8816.93159375,"end":8816.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9336.90096875,"end":9337.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9453.08534375,"end":9454.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9457.472843750002,"end":9459.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9462.383468750002,"end":9464.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9470.550968750002,"end":9471.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9472.64346875,"end":9473.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9473.75721875,"end":9474.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9479.17409375,"end":9479.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9479.882843750001,"end":9480.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9481.38471875,"end":9482.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9482.937218750001,"end":9484.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9486.61596875,"end":9487.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9487.274093750002,"end":9520.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9520.534718750001,"end":9548.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9548.95221875,"end":9559.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9559.634093750003,"end":9572.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9573.74159375,"end":9576.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9578.16284375,"end":9582.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9580.64346875,"end":9583.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9583.20846875,"end":9583.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9583.47846875,"end":9585.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9584.79471875,"end":9586.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9586.75221875,"end":9590.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9588.422843750002,"end":9590.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9590.515343750001,"end":9590.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9595.054718750001,"end":9597.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9598.598468750002,"end":9614.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9609.449093750001,"end":9610.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9614.32596875,"end":9620.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9620.839718750001,"end":9622.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9621.582218750002,"end":9624.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9623.18534375,"end":9625.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9625.497218750003,"end":9654.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9641.039093750001,"end":9641.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9654.84284375,"end":9654.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9655.399718750003,"end":9666.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9661.879718750002,"end":9662.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9666.199718750002,"end":9666.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9667.49909375,"end":9668.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9669.06846875,"end":9671.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9671.39721875,"end":9676.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9676.61159375,"end":9680.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9676.81409375,"end":9677.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9678.45096875,"end":9679.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9679.31159375,"end":9679.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9679.969718750002,"end":9691.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9691.984718750002,"end":9697.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9697.95846875,"end":9698.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9698.97096875,"end":9700.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9700.962218750003,"end":9705.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9706.530968750001,"end":9723.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9724.38471875,"end":9725.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9726.59534375,"end":9731.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9732.14721875,"end":9733.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9733.98659375,"end":9737.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9734.25659375,"end":9734.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9738.27284375,"end":9756.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9751.148468750001,"end":9751.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9756.97034375,"end":9758.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9759.02909375,"end":9767.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9767.500343750002,"end":9788.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9774.65534375,"end":9774.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9789.117218750001,"end":9789.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9789.25221875,"end":9790.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9790.26471875,"end":9792.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9792.593468750001,"end":9803.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9803.96721875,"end":9804.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9804.18659375,"end":9815.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9816.269093750001,"end":9818.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9819.188468750002,"end":9824.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9824.875343750002,"end":9825.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9825.22971875,"end":9841.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9840.51846875,"end":9848.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9848.500343750002,"end":9852.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9848.88846875,"end":9850.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9853.090343750002,"end":9860.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9853.259093750003,"end":9854.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9854.777843750002,"end":9854.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9861.29159375,"end":9868.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9869.003468750001,"end":9886.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9874.53846875,"end":9874.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9874.89284375,"end":9875.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9877.64346875,"end":9877.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9877.660343750002,"end":9877.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9877.67721875,"end":9878.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9885.38909375,"end":9885.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9885.43971875,"end":9885.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9886.13159375,"end":9895.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9896.020343750002,"end":9899.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9897.269093750001,"end":9897.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9899.56409375,"end":9900.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9900.00284375,"end":9901.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9900.89721875,"end":9904.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9901.774718750003,"end":9902.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9905.74034375,"end":9910.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9905.824718750002,"end":9909.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9910.566593750002,"end":9912.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9912.96284375,"end":9913.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9913.620968750001,"end":9915.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9915.34221875,"end":9918.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9919.797218750002,"end":9920.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9920.92784375,"end":9949.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9921.012218750002,"end":9921.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9950.391593750002,"end":9952.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9952.956593750001,"end":9957.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9957.512843750003,"end":9992.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9993.456593750001,"end":10001.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10001.792843750001,"end":10032.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10033.180343750002,"end":10063.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10044.149093750002,"end":10044.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10046.359718750002,"end":10046.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10046.42721875,"end":10046.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10048.95846875,"end":10048.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10048.97534375,"end":10049.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10064.196593750003,"end":10070.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10071.53721875,"end":10075.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10075.95846875,"end":10078.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10077.747218750003,"end":10111.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10079.164718750002,"end":10082.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10083.265343750001,"end":10083.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10090.62284375,"end":10090.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10092.242843750002,"end":10093.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10108.915343750003,"end":10109.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10111.41284375,"end":10112.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10111.93596875,"end":10177.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10177.64721875,"end":10199.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10195.41659375,"end":10195.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10195.433468750001,"end":10195.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10195.855343750001,"end":10195.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10198.555343750002,"end":10213.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10209.70971875,"end":10210.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10213.43909375,"end":10214.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10214.82284375,"end":10227.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10227.73221875,"end":10227.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10227.765968750002,"end":10227.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10227.78284375,"end":10227.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10228.086593750002,"end":10232.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10232.254718750002,"end":10232.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10232.625968750002,"end":10233.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10233.95909375,"end":10240.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10240.574093750001,"end":10241.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10241.097218750001,"end":10265.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10241.33346875,"end":10241.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10245.56909375,"end":10245.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10254.00659375,"end":10254.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10255.62659375,"end":10255.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10265.144093750001,"end":10265.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10265.414093750001,"end":10269.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10268.92409375,"end":10269.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10269.278468750003,"end":10269.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10269.312218750001,"end":10278.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10275.45471875,"end":10275.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10278.25596875,"end":10287.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10281.816593750002,"end":10281.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10281.83346875,"end":10282.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10287.23346875,"end":10300.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10300.919093750003,"end":10314.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10301.67846875,"end":10302.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10304.395343750002,"end":10304.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10309.137218750002,"end":10309.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10311.21284375,"end":10312.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10312.52909375,"end":10312.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10312.54596875,"end":10312.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10315.97159375,"end":10328.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10335.25971875,"end":10339.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10340.00159375,"end":10342.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10344.456593750001,"end":10344.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10344.473468750002,"end":10345.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10347.39284375,"end":10348.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10348.40534375,"end":10348.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10348.422218750002,"end":10348.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10349.063468750002,"end":10352.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10354.39596875,"end":10365.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10365.516593750002,"end":10367.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10367.96346875,"end":10369.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10371.18659375,"end":10373.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10372.70534375,"end":10373.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10373.97096875,"end":10381.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10382.20596875,"end":10389.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10390.96409375,"end":10392.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10393.27596875,"end":10395.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10396.33034375,"end":10397.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10399.148468750001,"end":10399.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10399.70534375,"end":10399.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10399.722218750001,"end":10399.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10399.92471875,"end":10399.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10400.66721875,"end":10409.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10410.269093750001,"end":10433.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10434.585968750001,"end":10438.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10438.652843750002,"end":10443.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10443.85034375,"end":10445.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10446.617843750002,"end":10446.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10447.394093750001,"end":10454.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10455.831593750001,"end":10458.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10458.801593750002,"end":10461.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10461.40034375,"end":10461.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10461.87284375,"end":10468.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10468.57221875,"end":10471.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10471.52534375,"end":10476.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10477.07721875,"end":10480.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10481.49846875,"end":10482.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10483.219718750002,"end":10483.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10483.81034375,"end":10484.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10484.805968750003,"end":10485.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10485.98721875,"end":10487.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10487.337218750003,"end":10487.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10488.67034375,"end":10496.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10496.972843750002,"end":10499.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10500.027218750001,"end":10518.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10519.129718750002,"end":10532.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10533.743468750003,"end":10540.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10541.40471875,"end":10542.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10542.50159375,"end":10542.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10543.109093750001,"end":10543.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10544.08784375,"end":10545.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10545.809093750002,"end":10550.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10550.68596875,"end":10551.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10552.255343750003,"end":10553.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10554.38159375,"end":10613.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10609.37721875,"end":10610.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10613.12346875,"end":10616.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10613.140343750001,"end":10613.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10617.13971875,"end":10619.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10619.35034375,"end":10625.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10626.35346875,"end":10628.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10629.52596875,"end":10630.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10630.926593750002,"end":10634.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10635.347843750002,"end":10640.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10640.81534375,"end":10643.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10643.97096875,"end":10644.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10645.371593750002,"end":10646.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10647.81846875,"end":10649.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10650.50159375,"end":10651.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10651.98659375,"end":10652.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10653.859718750002,"end":10663.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10664.06909375,"end":10664.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10665.26721875,"end":10666.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10666.785968750002,"end":10677.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10677.61971875,"end":10677.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10677.805343750002,"end":10688.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10688.41971875,"end":10698.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10698.831593750001,"end":10702.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10702.88159375,"end":10703.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10704.282218750002,"end":10705.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10706.94846875,"end":10707.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10707.960968750001,"end":10717.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10717.91721875,"end":10720.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10720.70159375,"end":10721.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10721.899718750003,"end":10727.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10728.531593750002,"end":10743.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10735.484093750001,"end":10735.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10744.512218750002,"end":10746.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10747.27971875,"end":10761.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10761.606593750003,"end":10766.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10766.618468750003,"end":10766.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10766.63534375,"end":10766.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10767.32721875,"end":10768.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10768.305968750003,"end":10775.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10775.629718750002,"end":10782.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10778.39721875,"end":10779.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10779.477218750002,"end":10780.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10782.88596875,"end":10784.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10784.67471875,"end":10793.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10793.46659375,"end":10793.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10793.83784375,"end":10804.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10803.372218750003,"end":10805.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10805.34659375,"end":10809.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":10810.054718750001,"end":10810.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10810.628468750001,"end":10814.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10815.589718750001,"end":10822.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10822.137218750002,"end":10824.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10823.925968750002,"end":10825.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10825.765343750001,"end":10829.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10829.680343750002,"end":10833.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10833.91596875,"end":10836.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10836.734093750001,"end":10840.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10840.446593750003,"end":10842.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10843.349093750003,"end":10844.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10844.83409375,"end":10849.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10850.26784375,"end":10854.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10852.832843750002,"end":10853.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10854.48659375,"end":10855.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10855.515968750002,"end":10857.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10858.60409375,"end":10859.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10859.19471875,"end":10863.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10864.206593750001,"end":10869.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10870.46721875,"end":10871.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10871.766593750002,"end":10873.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10874.027843750002,"end":10876.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10876.930343750002,"end":10880.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10881.26721875,"end":10885.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10886.02596875,"end":10888.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10890.261593750001,"end":10894.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10894.93596875,"end":10900.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10900.707218750002,"end":10902.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10903.677218750003,"end":10910.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10910.984093750001,"end":10912.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10912.215968750003,"end":10913.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10913.464718750001,"end":10917.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10917.86909375,"end":10920.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10920.585968750001,"end":10921.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10921.41284375,"end":10924.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10925.56409375,"end":10928.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10929.664718750002,"end":10935.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10935.68909375,"end":10940.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10941.426593750002,"end":10942.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10943.063468750002,"end":10944.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10944.71721875,"end":10946.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10946.82659375,"end":10949.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10949.83034375,"end":10952.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10952.867843750002,"end":10965.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10965.743468750003,"end":10967.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10967.380343750003,"end":10968.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10969.270343750002,"end":10970.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10971.210968750001,"end":10972.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10972.527218750001,"end":10973.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10973.759093750003,"end":10974.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10974.974093750003,"end":10979.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10979.699093750001,"end":10985.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10986.938468750002,"end":10988.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10988.828468750002,"end":10990.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10990.44846875,"end":10991.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":10991.64659375,"end":11003.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11003.594093750002,"end":11004.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11005.534718750001,"end":11006.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11006.867843750002,"end":11008.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11008.69034375,"end":11012.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11013.33096875,"end":11016.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11016.97596875,"end":11019.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11019.91221875,"end":11022.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11023.30409375,"end":11033.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11033.20971875,"end":11035.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11035.99409375,"end":11041.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11042.474093750003,"end":11044.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11045.49471875,"end":11052.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11060.226593750001,"end":11060.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11060.31096875,"end":11060.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11060.36159375,"end":11060.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11060.378468750001,"end":11060.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11060.41221875,"end":11060.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11060.749718750001,"end":11064.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11065.238468750002,"end":11066.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11072.49471875,"end":11073.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11073.743468750003,"end":11093.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11093.774093750002,"end":11150.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11144.21346875,"end":11144.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11151.23346875,"end":11151.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11152.195343750001,"end":11160.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11160.227843750003,"end":11166.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11166.707843750002,"end":11171.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11172.58034375,"end":11180.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11181.372218750003,"end":11219.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11220.336593750002,"end":11231.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11231.676593750002,"end":11235.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11235.49034375,"end":11263.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11256.01034375,"end":11256.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11263.80659375,"end":11265.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11265.39284375,"end":11269.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11270.65784375,"end":11286.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11287.094093750002,"end":11288.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11288.37659375,"end":11293.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11293.590968750003,"end":11293.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11293.995968750001,"end":11296.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11296.66221875,"end":11297.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11296.797218750002,"end":11299.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11298.87284375,"end":11303.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11300.05409375,"end":11300.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11303.90159375,"end":11304.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11304.00284375,"end":11308.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11304.036593750003,"end":11304.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11304.25596875,"end":11304.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11309.38596875,"end":11321.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11321.82284375,"end":11338.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11338.91721875,"end":11350.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11350.93221875,"end":11353.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11353.21034375,"end":11353.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11353.446593750003,"end":11353.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11353.61534375,"end":11356.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11356.46721875,"end":11366.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11364.11159375,"end":11372.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11372.565968750001,"end":11377.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11377.223468750002,"end":11400.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11401.067843750003,"end":11415.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11413.859093750001,"end":11417.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11417.402843750002,"end":11424.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11419.461593750002,"end":11420.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11422.566593750002,"end":11423.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11423.74784375,"end":11424.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11424.270968750003,"end":11425.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11425.587218750003,"end":11481.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11481.56159375,"end":11499.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11500.090343750002,"end":11500.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11500.12409375,"end":11500.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11500.47846875,"end":11505.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11505.473468750002,"end":11511.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11512.375343750002,"end":11516.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11516.965343750002,"end":11525.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11525.774093750002,"end":11528.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11528.54159375,"end":11530.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11530.85346875,"end":11531.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11532.28784375,"end":11564.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11564.434718750003,"end":11597.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11580.415343750003,"end":11581.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11581.96784375,"end":11582.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11582.035343750002,"end":11582.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11587.671593750001,"end":11587.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11587.70534375,"end":11588.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11588.02596875,"end":11588.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11588.312843750002,"end":11588.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":11588.97096875,"end":11589.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11589.03846875,"end":11590.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11592.29534375,"end":11592.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11597.94846875,"end":11642.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11640.726593750001,"end":11644.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11645.45159375,"end":11646.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11648.117843750002,"end":11649.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11650.14284375,"end":11656.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11657.129093750002,"end":11713.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11714.47034375,"end":11752.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11753.08034375,"end":11814.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11814.134093750003,"end":11819.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11819.331593750001,"end":11829.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11828.69721875,"end":11829.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11830.300343750001,"end":11833.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11830.50284375,"end":11830.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11833.692218750002,"end":11836.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11836.949093750001,"end":11837.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11838.29909375,"end":11838.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11839.277843750002,"end":11839.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11842.129718750002,"end":11887.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11887.72596875,"end":11906.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11911.722218750001,"end":11915.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11916.700343750003,"end":11917.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11918.60721875,"end":11920.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11927.93909375,"end":11949.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11949.94409375,"end":11952.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11953.15034375,"end":11980.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11981.027843750002,"end":12027.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12027.46784375,"end":12108.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12108.265343750001,"end":12119.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12123.53721875,"end":12124.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12128.481593750003,"end":12136.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12136.530968750001,"end":12137.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12138.99471875,"end":12146.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12146.53784375,"end":12159.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12160.13909375,"end":12160.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12160.172843750002,"end":12176.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12176.879093750002,"end":12178.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12178.769093750001,"end":12179.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12180.524093750002,"end":12183.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12183.780968750001,"end":12184.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12185.114093750002,"end":12186.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12187.375343750002,"end":12193.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12193.93971875,"end":12195.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12195.82971875,"end":12197.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12197.93909375,"end":12199.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12199.96409375,"end":12201.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12201.415343750003,"end":12203.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12204.081593750001,"end":12205.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12205.38096875,"end":12207.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12207.49034375,"end":12209.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12209.59971875,"end":12211.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12211.97909375,"end":12213.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12214.08846875,"end":12214.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12215.117843750002,"end":12218.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12219.184718750003,"end":12224.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12224.770343750002,"end":12232.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12232.988468750002,"end":12235.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12235.70534375,"end":12237.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12237.46034375,"end":12242.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12243.40034375,"end":12246.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12247.973468750002,"end":12255.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12256.27596875,"end":12270.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12271.159718750001,"end":12291.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12292.219718750002,"end":12293.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12294.09284375,"end":12298.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12299.594093750002,"end":12303.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12303.84659375,"end":12306.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12307.778468750003,"end":12309.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12310.410968750002,"end":12311.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12311.474093750003,"end":12312.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12313.49909375,"end":12313.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12314.477843750003,"end":12317.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12318.07221875,"end":12321.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12321.852218750002,"end":12322.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12323.25284375,"end":12323.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12323.92784375,"end":12325.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12325.277843750002,"end":12329.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12330.559718750003,"end":12335.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12335.48721875,"end":12336.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12337.12409375,"end":12342.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12342.97971875,"end":12349.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12348.750968750002,"end":12350.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12350.97846875,"end":12351.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12351.02909375,"end":12351.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12352.14284375,"end":12352.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12352.530968750001,"end":12353.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12353.89784375,"end":12355.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12356.56409375,"end":12368.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12368.37659375,"end":12372.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12372.359093750001,"end":12372.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12372.899093750002,"end":12377.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12372.91596875,"end":12373.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12374.890343750001,"end":12380.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12381.606593750003,"end":12383.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12382.956593750001,"end":12384.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12384.15471875,"end":12390.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12389.53784375,"end":12389.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12389.571593750003,"end":12389.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12389.58846875,"end":12390.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12390.60096875,"end":12394.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12390.617843750002,"end":12390.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12391.562843750002,"end":12391.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12391.613468750002,"end":12392.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12395.089718750001,"end":12407.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12406.78409375,"end":12414.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12410.614718750003,"end":12411.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12412.302218750003,"end":12412.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12413.129093750002,"end":12427.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12428.56971875,"end":12429.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12429.734093750001,"end":12431.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12431.15159375,"end":12431.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12432.02909375,"end":12435.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12435.99471875,"end":12436.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12437.42909375,"end":12439.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12438.559718750003,"end":12440.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12439.454093750002,"end":12445.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12443.53784375,"end":12443.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12443.554718750001,"end":12444.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12445.984718750002,"end":12447.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12446.085968750001,"end":12450.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12448.00971875,"end":12448.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12449.055968750003,"end":12452.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12451.249718750001,"end":12476.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12473.59221875,"end":12477.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12478.48596875,"end":12503.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12502.02659375,"end":12514.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12511.18971875,"end":12524.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12514.530968750001,"end":12514.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12515.99909375,"end":12517.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12519.289718750002,"end":12520.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12525.48284375,"end":12527.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12525.719093750002,"end":12526.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12527.11971875,"end":12533.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12532.38471875,"end":12532.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12533.481593750003,"end":12537.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12537.852218750002,"end":12538.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12538.122218750003,"end":12540.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12540.67034375,"end":12542.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12541.919093750003,"end":12544.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12545.26034375,"end":12557.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12546.89721875,"end":12548.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12557.309093750002,"end":12571.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12558.60846875,"end":12562.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12565.493468750003,"end":12565.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12567.92346875,"end":12568.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12569.796593750001,"end":12570.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12570.707843750002,"end":12580.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12580.69784375,"end":12604.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12587.414093750001,"end":12587.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12587.430968750003,"end":12588.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12590.23221875,"end":12590.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12590.28284375,"end":12590.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12590.333468750003,"end":12594.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12598.770968750003,"end":12598.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12598.78784375,"end":12598.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12598.88909375,"end":12598.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12604.035968750002,"end":12610.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12604.862843750001,"end":12605.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12608.136593750001,"end":12608.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12609.43596875,"end":12613.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12610.80284375,"end":12611.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12612.49034375,"end":12617.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12613.722218750001,"end":12614.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12615.578468750002,"end":12639.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12638.17409375,"end":12650.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12641.29596875,"end":12641.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12651.20159375,"end":12653.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12654.239093750002,"end":12658.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12654.289718750002,"end":12655.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12656.53409375,"end":12663.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12658.457843750002,"end":12658.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12659.183468750001,"end":12659.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12661.309718750003,"end":12675.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12676.429718750001,"end":12677.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12676.76721875,"end":12678.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12677.661593750003,"end":12683.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12683.38221875,"end":12683.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12684.15846875,"end":12688.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12689.575343750003,"end":12697.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12697.70909375,"end":12708.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12697.86096875,"end":12704.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12709.133468750002,"end":12710.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12711.32721875,"end":12713.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12714.195968750002,"end":12714.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12716.187218750001,"end":12717.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12718.245968750001,"end":12719.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12719.562218750001,"end":12721.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12721.789718750002,"end":12726.126593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12725.02971875,"end":12725.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12726.160343750002,"end":12726.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12726.177218750003,"end":12726.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12726.329093750002,"end":12728.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12727.274093750002,"end":12728.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12728.97846875,"end":12738.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12738.563468750002,"end":12750.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12748.87409375,"end":12761.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12759.15096875,"end":12759.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12759.167843750001,"end":12760.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12762.10409375,"end":12763.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12762.239093750002,"end":12785.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12784.24409375,"end":12787.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12787.349093750003,"end":12788.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12788.125343750002,"end":12791.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12790.234718750002,"end":12790.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12791.01096875,"end":12798.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12792.20909375,"end":12796.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12798.773468750001,"end":12799.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12799.735343750002,"end":12800.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12800.32596875,"end":12803.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12803.329718750003,"end":12804.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12806.063468750002,"end":12811.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12812.15534375,"end":12818.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12819.73221875,"end":12821.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12821.36909375,"end":12827.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12824.085968750001,"end":12824.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12828.59159375,"end":12833.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12829.064093750003,"end":12830.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12832.75971875,"end":12841.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12833.704718750003,"end":12836.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12839.93159375,"end":12840.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12842.327843750001,"end":12843.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12842.918468750002,"end":12845.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12846.15846875,"end":12851.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12849.01034375,"end":12853.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12852.942218750002,"end":12855.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12855.33846875,"end":12858.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":12856.215968750003,"end":12856.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12859.000343750002,"end":12860.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12864.535343750002,"end":12865.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12866.762843750003,"end":12867.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12867.657218750002,"end":12869.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12869.867843750002,"end":12870.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12870.458468750003,"end":12872.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12874.019093750001,"end":12875.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12879.53721875,"end":12880.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12880.988468750002,"end":12891.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12893.03721875,"end":12893.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12893.695343750001,"end":12895.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12895.079093750002,"end":12899.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12899.618468750003,"end":12899.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12899.78721875,"end":12900.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12900.175343750001,"end":12900.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12901.508468750002,"end":12901.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12901.59284375,"end":12901.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12902.234093750001,"end":12903.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12904.090343750002,"end":12904.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12904.782218750002,"end":12911.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12904.79909375,"end":12904.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12912.54471875,"end":12928.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12929.605343750001,"end":12938.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12939.29159375,"end":12944.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12945.40034375,"end":12948.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12951.964718750001,"end":12953.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12953.095343750003,"end":12957.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12957.516593750002,"end":12961.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12962.207843750002,"end":12962.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12964.688468750002,"end":12966.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":12970.999718750001,"end":12971.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12971.03346875,"end":12975.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12981.22596875,"end":12991.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12992.39721875,"end":13036.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13038.58409375,"end":13040.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13040.136593750001,"end":13040.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13041.419093750003,"end":13047.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13047.81471875,"end":13051.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13051.324718750002,"end":13052.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13051.72971875,"end":13055.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13056.84284375,"end":13059.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13059.42471875,"end":13065.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13066.157843750003,"end":13070.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13070.309093750002,"end":13070.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13070.798468750003,"end":13071.220343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13070.832218750002,"end":13070.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13071.43971875,"end":13075.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13075.422218750002,"end":13107.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13108.480343750001,"end":13114.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13117.15409375,"end":13118.048468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13118.453468750002,"end":13120.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13122.21659375,"end":13123.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13123.87034375,"end":13127.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13126.92471875,"end":13126.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13127.059718750003,"end":13127.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13128.96659375,"end":13132.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13129.28721875,"end":13130.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13130.02971875,"end":13141.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13139.277218750001,"end":13139.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13141.52159375,"end":13174.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13177.937843750002,"end":13182.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13177.988468750002,"end":13178.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13182.24096875,"end":13184.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13184.046593750001,"end":13185.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13186.527218750001,"end":13187.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13186.594718750002,"end":13188.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13188.754718750002,"end":13194.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13194.981593750003,"end":13195.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13195.926593750002,"end":13196.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13197.462218750003,"end":13197.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13197.968468750001,"end":13217.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13217.57721875,"end":13220.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13221.829718750003,"end":13222.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13223.46659375,"end":13246.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13246.93971875,"end":13248.407843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13250.01096875,"end":13257.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13257.773468750001,"end":13258.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13258.02659375,"end":13261.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13261.97534375,"end":13266.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13266.632843750001,"end":13285.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13285.887218750002,"end":13287.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13286.039093750001,"end":13287.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13287.76034375,"end":13288.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13288.165343750003,"end":13290.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13289.937218750001,"end":13299.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13299.99471875,"end":13310.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13311.503468750001,"end":13327.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13329.25596875,"end":13337.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13336.714718750001,"end":13349.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13350.19784375,"end":13355.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13355.83409375,"end":13367.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13368.11909375,"end":13387.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13389.077843750001,"end":13395.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13395.91221875,"end":13398.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13399.422218750002,"end":13404.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13404.923468750003,"end":13406.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13407.640343750001,"end":13417.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13418.54159375,"end":13433.189093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13431.72096875,"end":13439.517218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13439.331593750001,"end":13440.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13442.132843750001,"end":13446.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13446.402218750001,"end":13447.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13447.60034375,"end":13448.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13448.950343750003,"end":13455.548468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13456.25721875,"end":13458.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13458.957218750002,"end":13487.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13488.235343750002,"end":13489.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13490.41221875,"end":13516.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13517.024093750002,"end":13519.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13520.63534375,"end":13528.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13530.000968750002,"end":13532.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13532.12721875,"end":13555.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13554.992843750002,"end":13558.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13558.50284375,"end":13573.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13567.868468750003,"end":13571.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13574.11221875,"end":13577.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13575.360968750003,"end":13578.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13577.43659375,"end":13582.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13580.609093750001,"end":13593.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13593.36659375,"end":13593.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13594.04159375,"end":13596.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13596.927218750003,"end":13599.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13599.79596875,"end":13635.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13600.285343750002,"end":13600.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13601.027843750002,"end":13601.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13601.88846875,"end":13602.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13604.352218750002,"end":13606.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13606.96784375,"end":13607.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13619.539718750002,"end":13619.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13635.60471875,"end":13638.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13638.524093750002,"end":13639.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13640.27909375,"end":13642.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13642.253468750001,"end":13645.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13646.708468750003,"end":13658.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13647.062843750002,"end":13648.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13648.09221875,"end":13648.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13659.195968750002,"end":13662.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13659.972218750001,"end":13665.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13664.49471875,"end":13670.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13668.76409375,"end":13670.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13670.87346875,"end":13686.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13670.97471875,"end":13671.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13671.210968750001,"end":13671.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13686.769718750002,"end":13691.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13691.511593750001,"end":13742.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13743.199718750002,"end":13750.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13751.72159375,"end":13755.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13756.21034375,"end":13756.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13757.222843750002,"end":13757.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13758.31971875,"end":13760.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13760.51346875,"end":13785.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":13785.37034375,"end":13785.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13785.67409375,"end":13788.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13789.437218750001,"end":13793.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13793.75721875,"end":13851.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13852.80284375,"end":13854.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13855.047218750002,"end":13866.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13866.67409375,"end":13869.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13869.37409375,"end":13870.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13870.89284375,"end":13873.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13873.930343750002,"end":13924.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13924.909718750001,"end":13929.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13930.630343750003,"end":13934.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13936.08096875,"end":13952.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13952.88846875,"end":13954.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13954.812218750001,"end":13974.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13974.437843750002,"end":13993.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13993.945343750001,"end":13995.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13995.46409375,"end":14001.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14001.57284375,"end":14003.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14003.78346875,"end":14055.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14055.960968750001,"end":14064.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14058.10409375,"end":14065.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14064.465968750003,"end":14072.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14072.734718750002,"end":14080.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14073.34221875,"end":14086.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14080.851593750001,"end":14080.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14081.661593750003,"end":14082.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14082.04971875,"end":14082.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14082.066593750002,"end":14082.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14082.10034375,"end":14082.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14082.488468750002,"end":14083.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14083.19721875,"end":14083.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14083.56846875,"end":14083.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14083.973468750002,"end":14084.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14084.024093750002,"end":14084.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14084.83409375,"end":14085.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14085.32346875,"end":14085.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14086.504718750002,"end":14086.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14086.605968750002,"end":14095.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14088.58034375,"end":14090.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14090.41971875,"end":14090.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14090.723468750002,"end":14097.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14096.207843750002,"end":14097.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14097.254093750002,"end":14098.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14098.840343750002,"end":14109.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14109.77534375,"end":14113.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14113.605968750002,"end":14117.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14117.655968750001,"end":14122.110968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14122.110968750003,"end":14125.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14125.03034375,"end":14127.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14128.472843750002,"end":14129.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14128.50659375,"end":14131.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14131.223468750002,"end":14144.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14144.571593750003,"end":14154.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14154.645968750003,"end":14157.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14158.25721875,"end":14167.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14168.247218750003,"end":14171.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14172.53346875,"end":14189.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14191.399718750003,"end":14195.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14195.939093750003,"end":14200.157843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14200.07346875,"end":14200.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14200.157843750003,"end":14202.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14200.191593750002,"end":14202.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14202.60471875,"end":14214.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14202.63846875,"end":14202.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14202.722843750002,"end":14203.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14207.042843750001,"end":14212.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14213.016593750002,"end":14218.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14217.336593750002,"end":14223.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14218.68659375,"end":14221.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14223.47909375,"end":14225.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14224.727843750003,"end":14244.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14244.910343750002,"end":14247.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14247.120968750001,"end":14269.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14270.47596875,"end":14282.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14282.96346875,"end":14291.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14291.67096875,"end":14320.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14322.282218750002,"end":14347.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14348.286593750003,"end":14352.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14352.184718750003,"end":14358.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14358.715343750002,"end":14397.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14398.23659375,"end":14399.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14400.71721875,"end":14406.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14406.74159375,"end":14408.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14408.614718750003,"end":14409.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14409.99846875,"end":14412.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14414.01471875,"end":14416.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14417.38971875,"end":14424.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14424.98346875,"end":14472.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14474.039093750001,"end":14510.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14511.40034375,"end":14515.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14515.973468750002,"end":14519.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14519.78721875,"end":14523.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14523.499718750001,"end":14530.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14530.570343750001,"end":14538.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14539.007843750001,"end":14547.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14548.15409375,"end":14552.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14552.06909375,"end":14563.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14564.30346875,"end":14567.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14568.437843750002,"end":14585.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14585.565968750001,"end":14592.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14593.159718750001,"end":14593.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14594.914718750002,"end":14600.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14600.78721875,"end":14601.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14602.339718750001,"end":14604.314093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14602.74471875,"end":14613.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14606.136593750001,"end":14610.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14610.456593750001,"end":14610.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14613.08909375,"end":14614.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14613.257843750001,"end":14613.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14614.97909375,"end":14618.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14615.60346875,"end":14615.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14618.894093750001,"end":14618.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14618.910968750002,"end":14618.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14618.92784375,"end":14619.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14619.77159375,"end":14633.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14633.035343750002,"end":14633.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14633.33909375,"end":14652.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14633.423468750003,"end":14633.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14638.50284375,"end":14645.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14649.99471875,"end":14666.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14652.559718750003,"end":14654.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14663.74784375,"end":14663.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14663.81534375,"end":14663.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14663.933468750001,"end":14664.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14666.312843750002,"end":14666.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14666.684093750002,"end":14666.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14666.97096875,"end":14667.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14667.07221875,"end":14673.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14669.046593750001,"end":14669.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14671.18971875,"end":14674.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14676.82596875,"end":14719.485968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14720.093468750001,"end":14723.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14723.907218750002,"end":14735.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14735.95596875,"end":14736.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14736.816593750002,"end":14746.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14738.31846875,"end":14740.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14740.934093750002,"end":14741.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14741.727218750002,"end":14741.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14742.06471875,"end":14742.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14745.642218750003,"end":14746.907843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14746.907843750003,"end":14746.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14746.958468750003,"end":14752.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14753.20221875,"end":14755.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14753.894093750001,"end":14760.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14761.285343750002,"end":14764.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14761.302218750003,"end":14762.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14763.10784375,"end":14766.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14765.774093750002,"end":14770.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14770.195343750001,"end":14770.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14770.262843750003,"end":14770.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14770.364093750002,"end":14772.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14770.515968750002,"end":14782.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14772.473468750002,"end":14772.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14776.92846875,"end":14780.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14783.273468750001,"end":14789.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14789.702843750001,"end":14792.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14794.27596875,"end":14794.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14796.70596875,"end":14798.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14799.304718750001,"end":14799.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14800.18221875,"end":14801.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14802.19034375,"end":14805.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14804.789093750001,"end":14822.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14805.56534375,"end":14807.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14808.535343750002,"end":14808.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14813.496593750002,"end":14817.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14820.786593750003,"end":14832.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14824.49909375,"end":14829.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14829.055343750002,"end":14829.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14832.329093750002,"end":14838.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14832.98721875,"end":14835.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14838.539093750001,"end":14839.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14839.922843750002,"end":14846.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14839.973468750002,"end":14844.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14844.968468750001,"end":14846.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14846.63909375,"end":14849.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14847.95534375,"end":14866.298468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14865.74159375,"end":14868.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14867.26034375,"end":14878.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14868.62721875,"end":14869.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14879.17409375,"end":14879.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14880.473468750002,"end":14883.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14883.91596875,"end":14885.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14885.164718750002,"end":14887.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14887.392218750003,"end":14890.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14890.952843750001,"end":14891.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14892.117218750001,"end":14893.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14893.770968750003,"end":14896.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14896.909718750001,"end":14897.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14897.517218750003,"end":14899.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14905.110968750003,"end":14906.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14913.29534375,"end":14921.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14921.90159375,"end":14922.829718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14922.829718750003,"end":14922.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14925.175343750001,"end":14927.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14928.128468750001,"end":14929.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14929.461593750002,"end":14933.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14931.250343750002,"end":14932.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14933.005343750003,"end":14959.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14933.089718750001,"end":14933.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14934.169718750003,"end":14934.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14934.18659375,"end":14935.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14936.464718750001,"end":14936.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14936.97096875,"end":14937.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14937.08909375,"end":14937.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14937.13971875,"end":14937.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14939.384093750003,"end":14939.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14939.417843750001,"end":14940.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14945.492843750002,"end":14946.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14948.294093750003,"end":14949.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14950.555343750002,"end":14950.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14950.977218750002,"end":14951.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14951.48346875,"end":14951.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14952.05721875,"end":14952.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14952.074093750001,"end":14953.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14953.626593750003,"end":14954.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14961.270968750003,"end":14973.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14973.134093750003,"end":14973.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14973.505343750003,"end":14978.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14980.609718750002,"end":14982.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14985.840968750003,"end":14992.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14988.642218750003,"end":14988.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":14988.86159375,"end":14988.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14988.96284375,"end":14989.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14993.77221875,"end":14995.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14995.88159375,"end":14996.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14997.41721875,"end":14997.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14998.446593750003,"end":14998.716593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14999.189093750003,"end":15001.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15001.58534375,"end":15004.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15005.820968750002,"end":15005.888468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15006.95159375,"end":15010.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15008.80784375,"end":15009.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15010.140968750002,"end":15011.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15012.149093750002,"end":15013.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15014.005343750003,"end":15015.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15017.211593750002,"end":15019.810343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15021.61596875,"end":15023.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15024.062843750002,"end":15025.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15026.72909375,"end":15028.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15029.73284375,"end":15030.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15030.99846875,"end":15033.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15034.727843750003,"end":15036.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15037.714718750001,"end":15045.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15045.81471875,"end":15049.814093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15052.800968750002,"end":15057.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15057.779093750003,"end":15057.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15057.880343750003,"end":15057.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15057.89721875,"end":15060.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15060.614093750002,"end":15068.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15070.013468750003,"end":15084.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15085.487843750001,"end":15088.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15085.622843750003,"end":15085.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":15085.977218750002,"end":15086.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15089.183468750001,"end":15092.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15093.11534375,"end":15093.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15094.937843750002,"end":15098.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15098.97096875,"end":15100.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15100.75971875,"end":15100.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15100.844093750002,"end":15100.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15100.962218750003,"end":15107.138468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15107.52659375,"end":15110.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15111.62721875,"end":15116.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15117.11159375,"end":15125.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15125.97096875,"end":15127.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15128.215343750002,"end":15130.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15132.012218750002,"end":15134.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15135.657218750002,"end":15139.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15140.601593750001,"end":15143.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15144.65159375,"end":15147.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15149.309093750002,"end":15150.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15151.35096875,"end":15152.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15152.987843750001,"end":15154.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15154.911593750003,"end":15155.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15156.261593750001,"end":15156.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15157.08846875,"end":15158.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15158.759093750003,"end":15162.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15162.758468750002,"end":15165.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15165.930968750003,"end":15173.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15174.452843750001,"end":15176.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15177.13596875,"end":15178.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15178.70534375,"end":15179.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15180.055343750002,"end":15180.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15181.101593750001,"end":15182.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15183.582218750002,"end":15185.235968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15185.62409375,"end":15185.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15185.640968750002,"end":15194.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15185.657843750003,"end":15186.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15190.46721875,"end":15199.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15199.039718750002,"end":15203.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15201.824093750001,"end":15203.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15203.22471875,"end":15203.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15203.258468750002,"end":15203.747843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15203.747843750003,"end":15203.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15203.86596875,"end":15203.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15204.473468750002,"end":15205.485968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15204.70971875,"end":15205.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15206.07659375,"end":15213.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15213.265343750001,"end":15213.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15213.872843750003,"end":15214.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15214.699718750002,"end":15216.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15216.47159375,"end":15221.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15216.657218750002,"end":15216.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15216.690968750001,"end":15217.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15217.78784375,"end":15218.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15218.243468750003,"end":15218.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15218.26034375,"end":15218.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15222.37784375,"end":15224.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15224.95971875,"end":15232.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15234.86534375,"end":15236.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15237.227843750003,"end":15238.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15238.93221875,"end":15241.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15242.40846875,"end":15247.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15248.297843750002,"end":15250.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15250.812218750001,"end":15255.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15255.97596875,"end":15256.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15256.12784375,"end":15261.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15262.169093750003,"end":15262.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15263.29971875,"end":15264.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15265.172843750002,"end":15266.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15267.29909375,"end":15268.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15269.121593750002,"end":15274.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15274.774718750003,"end":15275.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15276.394718750002,"end":15279.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15279.43221875,"end":15280.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15281.625968750002,"end":15283.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15284.511593750001,"end":15284.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15285.28784375,"end":15285.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15287.22846875,"end":15288.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15288.527843750002,"end":15289.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15290.02971875,"end":15290.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15291.227843750003,"end":15291.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15292.425968750002,"end":15297.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15298.298468750003,"end":15300.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15301.04909375,"end":15303.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15303.42846875,"end":15308.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15308.507843750001,"end":15312.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15313.60409375,"end":15323.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15323.89784375,"end":15323.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15323.94846875,"end":15324.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15324.032843750003,"end":15329.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15329.73659375,"end":15329.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15329.770343750002,"end":15334.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15333.719093750002,"end":15335.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15336.098468750002,"end":15336.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15337.735343750002,"end":15338.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15341.684093750002,"end":15343.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15345.177218750003,"end":15345.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15345.970343750003,"end":15346.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15346.13909375,"end":15347.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15351.25221875,"end":15352.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15355.302218750003,"end":15359.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15366.591593750003,"end":15367.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15368.684093750002,"end":15370.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15371.957843750002,"end":15373.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15374.185343750003,"end":15376.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15377.594093750002,"end":15380.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15380.935343750003,"end":15383.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15383.753468750001,"end":15387.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15388.12409375,"end":15390.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15391.245968750001,"end":15393.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15394.857218750003,"end":15396.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15401.421593750001,"end":15401.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15402.67034375,"end":15404.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15405.336593750002,"end":15408.357218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15408.964718750001,"end":15412.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15412.035968750002,"end":15412.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15412.64346875,"end":15415.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15416.44034375,"end":15418.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15419.359718750002,"end":15423.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15424.253468750001,"end":15425.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15425.856593750003,"end":15429.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15429.754718750002,"end":15433.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15433.922843750002,"end":15436.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15437.399093750002,"end":15441.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15441.75284375,"end":15443.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15444.469718750002,"end":15451.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15452.164718750002,"end":15454.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15455.117843750002,"end":15455.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15456.029093750003,"end":15456.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15456.51846875,"end":15457.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15457.78409375,"end":15460.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15461.445968750002,"end":15462.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15462.880343750003,"end":15464.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15465.310343750003,"end":15467.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15468.16221875,"end":15471.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15471.97596875,"end":15473.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15474.034718750001,"end":15478.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15479.755343750003,"end":15480.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15480.734093750001,"end":15481.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15481.965968750003,"end":15482.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15482.235968750003,"end":15488.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15488.564093750003,"end":15500.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15491.63534375,"end":15493.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15500.91659375,"end":15505.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15501.152843750002,"end":15501.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15505.82721875,"end":15508.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15508.594718750002,"end":15515.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15509.67471875,"end":15509.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15515.985968750003,"end":15517.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15518.31471875,"end":15519.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15519.69846875,"end":15526.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15526.718468750001,"end":15529.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15530.059718750003,"end":15532.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15532.23659375,"end":15532.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15532.270343750002,"end":15534.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15534.34596875,"end":15538.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15536.20221875,"end":15536.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15539.45909375,"end":15541.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15541.804718750001,"end":15543.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15544.26846875,"end":15544.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15546.25971875,"end":15550.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15551.625968750002,"end":15553.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15554.562218750001,"end":15561.548468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15562.29096875,"end":15565.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15565.56471875,"end":15566.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15566.442218750002,"end":15567.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15567.589718750001,"end":15570.829718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15571.31909375,"end":15582.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15582.91221875,"end":15584.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15585.08909375,"end":15585.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15589.020968750003,"end":15591.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15592.24409375,"end":15594.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15592.78409375,"end":15596.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15594.404093750003,"end":15595.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15596.445968750002,"end":15599.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15598.94346875,"end":15600.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15599.567843750003,"end":15602.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15603.044093750003,"end":15605.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15605.625968750002,"end":15609.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15605.980343750001,"end":15606.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15607.02659375,"end":15607.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15608.81534375,"end":15610.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15610.114718750003,"end":15612.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15613.270343750002,"end":15617.185343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15616.476593750001,"end":15616.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15617.185343750003,"end":15617.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15617.286593750003,"end":15617.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15617.97846875,"end":15618.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15618.012218750002,"end":15618.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15618.383468750002,"end":15618.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15618.94034375,"end":15618.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15618.974093750003,"end":15619.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15619.395968750003,"end":15619.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15619.51409375,"end":15619.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15619.66596875,"end":15619.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15619.969718750002,"end":15620.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15620.03721875,"end":15620.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15620.070968750002,"end":15620.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15620.25659375,"end":15620.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15620.290343750003,"end":15625.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15620.374718750001,"end":15625.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15625.99409375,"end":15631.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15626.48346875,"end":15626.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15632.794718750003,"end":15635.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15636.08534375,"end":15639.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15637.890968750002,"end":15639.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15641.40096875,"end":15642.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15642.970343750003,"end":15644.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15644.52284375,"end":15646.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15647.50971875,"end":15648.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15648.690968750001,"end":15650.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15651.05346875,"end":15652.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15653.80409375,"end":15656.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15657.550343750001,"end":15658.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15659.052218750003,"end":15659.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15660.55409375,"end":15661.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15662.106593750003,"end":15662.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15664.688468750002,"end":15667.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15664.75596875,"end":15664.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":15664.77284375,"end":15665.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15665.02596875,"end":15665.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15668.232218750003,"end":15670.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15670.324718750002,"end":15670.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15670.425968750002,"end":15678.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15678.036593750003,"end":15682.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15682.89659375,"end":15686.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15687.570968750002,"end":15690.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15690.96284375,"end":15693.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15693.98346875,"end":15695.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15695.890343750001,"end":15696.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15697.763468750003,"end":15700.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15702.387218750002,"end":15703.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15704.47971875,"end":15705.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15706.251593750003,"end":15707.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15708.242843750002,"end":15709.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15709.96409375,"end":15709.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15710.301593750002,"end":15712.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15713.777843750002,"end":15718.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15719.07659375,"end":15720.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15721.101593750001,"end":15722.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15722.77221875,"end":15726.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15728.172218750002,"end":15731.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15731.85096875,"end":15733.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15734.550968750002,"end":15736.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15737.048468750003,"end":15739.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15739.664093750001,"end":15741.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15742.110968750003,"end":15743.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15744.13596875,"end":15745.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15745.570343750001,"end":15747.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15747.325343750003,"end":15748.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15749.29971875,"end":15750.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15750.734093750001,"end":15750.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15752.016593750002,"end":15758.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15758.024093750002,"end":15758.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15759.087218750003,"end":15761.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15762.32721875,"end":15762.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15763.79534375,"end":15765.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15766.208468750003,"end":15769.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15770.089718750001,"end":15770.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15770.950343750003,"end":15773.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15773.49846875,"end":15778.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15778.98284375,"end":15781.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15782.324093750001,"end":15788.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15789.411593750003,"end":15789.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15790.086593750002,"end":15797.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15794.204093750002,"end":15797.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":15797.66346875,"end":15797.747843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15798.422843750002,"end":15799.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15800.49846875,"end":15801.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15801.966593750003,"end":15804.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15804.76784375,"end":15806.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15806.269718750002,"end":15807.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15808.058468750001,"end":15816.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15818.031593750002,"end":15821.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15822.891593750002,"end":15823.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15824.106593750003,"end":15827.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15827.684093750002,"end":15828.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15828.966593750003,"end":15830.704718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15831.008468750002,"end":15835.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15835.159718750001,"end":15835.345343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15835.294718750003,"end":15836.138468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15835.379093750002,"end":15837.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":15836.62784375,"end":15836.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15837.606593750003,"end":15838.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15838.703468750002,"end":15839.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15841.04909375,"end":15843.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15843.985343750002,"end":15844.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":15845.993468750003,"end":15848.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15861.282218750002,"end":15863.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15869.669093750003,"end":15869.888468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15870.95159375,"end":15871.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15872.31846875,"end":15874.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15875.136593750001,"end":15877.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15878.22471875,"end":15879.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15879.96284375,"end":15881.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":15881.34659375,"end":15881.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15881.76846875,"end":15884.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15885.24471875,"end":15889.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15890.08784375,"end":15892.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15892.855343750001,"end":15895.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15896.027843750002,"end":15896.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15896.06159375,"end":15900.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15900.58409375,"end":15901.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15902.372843750003,"end":15907.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15907.722218750001,"end":15911.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15911.940968750001,"end":15913.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15914.320343750001,"end":15917.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15918.25221875,"end":15919.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15920.294093750003,"end":15921.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15921.509093750003,"end":15923.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15924.782843750003,"end":15925.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15926.048468750003,"end":15926.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15926.993468750003,"end":15927.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15929.237843750001,"end":15930.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15930.80721875,"end":15934.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15934.50284375,"end":15935.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15936.848468750002,"end":15939.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15940.004093750002,"end":15940.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15942.36659375,"end":15963.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15952.64346875,"end":15953.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15953.33534375,"end":15954.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15954.48284375,"end":15956.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":15957.250343750002,"end":15957.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":15964.18596875,"end":15978.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15977.26409375,"end":15981.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15982.00596875,"end":15983.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15984.199718750002,"end":15985.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15986.86596875,"end":15988.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15988.739093750002,"end":15989.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15989.954093750002,"end":15991.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15991.65846875,"end":15992.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15993.261593750001,"end":15994.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15994.577843750001,"end":15995.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15996.09659375,"end":15997.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15999.04971875,"end":16000.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16001.78346875,"end":16002.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16002.84659375,"end":16004.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16004.331593750001,"end":16004.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16004.73659375,"end":16006.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16008.246593750002,"end":16019.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16018.35471875,"end":16021.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16021.847843750002,"end":16022.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16022.843468750001,"end":16023.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16023.957218750002,"end":16026.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16026.859718750002,"end":16027.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16028.83409375,"end":16029.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16030.065968750001,"end":16034.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16035.314093750003,"end":16038.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16038.16596875,"end":16038.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16038.351593750001,"end":16042.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16043.464718750001,"end":16045.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16045.911593750003,"end":16047.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16047.86909375,"end":16049.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16049.57346875,"end":16050.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16050.231593750003,"end":16052.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16053.57284375,"end":16054.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16054.703468750002,"end":16061.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16062.499718750001,"end":16065.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16066.12784375,"end":16071.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16071.61221875,"end":16073.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16074.632843750001,"end":16075.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16075.83096875,"end":16078.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16078.919093750003,"end":16079.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16080.235343750002,"end":16082.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16083.32346875,"end":16085.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16086.25971875,"end":16090.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16090.579718750003,"end":16090.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16090.90034375,"end":16092.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16092.030968750001,"end":16093.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16093.17846875,"end":16094.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16094.832218750002,"end":16094.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16094.849093750003,"end":16099.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16099.911593750003,"end":16100.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16100.367218750001,"end":16102.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16103.607218750003,"end":16103.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16104.231593750003,"end":16105.716593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16106.796593750001,"end":16107.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16107.910343750002,"end":16112.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16112.95596875,"end":16113.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16113.546593750001,"end":16116.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16116.75284375,"end":16117.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16118.507843750001,"end":16120.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16120.482218750003,"end":16129.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16132.04159375,"end":16133.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16133.745968750001,"end":16134.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16135.56846875,"end":16136.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16135.68659375,"end":16160.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16160.50971875,"end":16163.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16164.593468750001,"end":16168.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16170.21284375,"end":16170.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16170.297218750002,"end":16171.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16171.883468750002,"end":16172.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16173.38534375,"end":16174.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16174.988468750002,"end":16176.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16176.169718750003,"end":16177.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16178.59971875,"end":16182.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16181.02971875,"end":16186.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16187.67846875,"end":16188.876593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16190.46284375,"end":16191.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16191.357218750003,"end":16194.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16191.981593750003,"end":16195.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16194.934718750003,"end":16197.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16197.550343750001,"end":16198.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16197.60096875,"end":16202.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16202.410343750002,"end":16205.751593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16203.102218750002,"end":16207.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16207.35471875,"end":16211.235968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16208.82284375,"end":16210.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16210.98284375,"end":16222.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16222.710968750001,"end":16225.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16223.36909375,"end":16223.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16224.567218750002,"end":16226.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16226.38971875,"end":16231.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16227.90846875,"end":16231.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16231.671593750001,"end":16243.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16242.25221875,"end":16245.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16246.234718750002,"end":16246.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16246.285343750002,"end":16249.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16247.43284375,"end":16248.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16249.27221875,"end":16250.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16250.301593750002,"end":16252.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16252.815968750001,"end":16253.845343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16254.250343750002,"end":16255.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16254.28409375,"end":16259.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16256.798468750003,"end":16269.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16268.965343750002,"end":16271.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16273.15034375,"end":16273.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16273.875968750002,"end":16275.782843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16276.69409375,"end":16278.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16279.47846875,"end":16281.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16282.465343750002,"end":16283.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16283.882843750001,"end":16285.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16285.637843750003,"end":16286.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16287.07221875,"end":16288.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16289.789093750001,"end":16290.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16291.155968750001,"end":16294.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16295.45909375,"end":16295.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16295.89784375,"end":16297.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16298.20971875,"end":16299.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16300.09971875,"end":16304.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16305.415343750003,"end":16306.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16307.524718750003,"end":16310.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16310.44409375,"end":16322.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16323.134093750003,"end":16327.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16328.63534375,"end":16332.263468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16333.17471875,"end":16334.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16334.64284375,"end":16339.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16339.367843750002,"end":16339.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16339.485968750003,"end":16343.704718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16339.637843750003,"end":16339.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16343.92409375,"end":16346.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16345.35846875,"end":16347.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16347.231593750003,"end":16348.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16347.24846875,"end":16347.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16347.46784375,"end":16347.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16348.04159375,"end":16349.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16350.04971875,"end":16361.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16361.76096875,"end":16363.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16363.80284375,"end":16365.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16366.199093750001,"end":16367.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16367.515343750001,"end":16371.497843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16371.93659375,"end":16372.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16372.122218750003,"end":16376.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16377.30284375,"end":16379.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16379.142218750003,"end":16392.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16381.082843750002,"end":16382.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16392.895343750002,"end":16395.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":16395.81471875,"end":16397.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16397.72159375,"end":16398.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16398.97034375,"end":16400.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16401.012218750002,"end":16407.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16408.521593750003,"end":16410.428468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":16410.732218750003,"end":16411.491593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16424.82284375,"end":16425.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16425.717218750004,"end":16427.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16428.19784375,"end":16458.960968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16458.97784375,"end":16480.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16481.01659375,"end":16494.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16494.51659375,"end":16528.232843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16528.50284375,"end":16536.349718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16536.585968749998,"end":16538.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16538.81346875,"end":16541.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16541.817218750002,"end":16544.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16545.344093749998,"end":16547.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16554.473468750002,"end":16563.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16563.687218749998,"end":16568.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16569.390968749998,"end":16571.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16572.225968749997,"end":16621.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16574.89221875,"end":16574.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16574.90909375,"end":16575.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16575.02721875,"end":16575.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16575.41534375,"end":16575.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16622.36159375,"end":16625.702843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16626.24284375,"end":16650.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16650.390968749998,"end":16654.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16655.48721875,"end":16695.092843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16695.480968750002,"end":16710.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16711.545968749997,"end":16712.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16712.609093749998,"end":16713.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16714.043468750002,"end":16717.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16717.975343750004,"end":16720.101593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16720.77659375,"end":16721.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16721.90721875,"end":16724.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16724.489093750002,"end":16741.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16740.351593749998,"end":16746.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16743.692843750003,"end":16747.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16747.624718749998,"end":16758.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16757.76659375,"end":16759.757843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16758.74534375,"end":16761.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":16759.757843749998,"end":16759.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16761.630968750003,"end":16766.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":16762.94721875,"end":16768.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16766.609093749998,"end":16825.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16778.57346875,"end":16778.607218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":16778.607218750003,"end":16778.826593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":16781.52659375,"end":16781.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16826.21159375,"end":16854.038468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16854.662843750004,"end":16863.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16863.97784375,"end":16864.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16864.467218750004,"end":16871.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16872.43221875,"end":16952.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16952.841593750003,"end":16961.177843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16961.43096875,"end":17002.234718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17003.12909375,"end":17005.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17005.795343750004,"end":17048.725343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":17048.57346875,"end":17049.687218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17049.349718750003,"end":17057.888468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17056.89284375,"end":17060.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17058.090968750003,"end":17058.546593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17058.951593750004,"end":17065.600343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17061.93846875,"end":17062.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17064.80721875,"end":17072.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17068.030343749997,"end":17077.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":17072.08034375,"end":17072.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17077.34534375,"end":17080.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17080.365968750004,"end":17084.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17083.04909375,"end":17083.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17083.06596875,"end":17084.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17084.39909375,"end":17084.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17084.73659375,"end":17085.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17085.88409375,"end":17103.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17092.21221875,"end":17093.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17103.130343750003,"end":17103.771593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17103.147218750004,"end":17103.248468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17103.670343750004,"end":17105.796593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17105.91471875,"end":17129.607218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17128.864718750003,"end":17136.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17130.450968750003,"end":17132.357843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17132.880968750003,"end":17135.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17136.54284375,"end":17144.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17144.03534375,"end":17147.781593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17147.37659375,"end":17148.709718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17148.304718749998,"end":17150.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17149.131593750004,"end":17154.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17152.33784375,"end":17152.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17154.092843749997,"end":17154.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17154.801593750002,"end":17156.742218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17157.19784375,"end":17159.897843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17157.28221875,"end":17158.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17159.08784375,"end":17163.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17162.27721875,"end":17165.804093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17166.25971875,"end":17202.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17203.840343750002,"end":17220.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17220.78284375,"end":17224.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17224.03971875,"end":17224.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17224.91721875,"end":17232.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17231.481593750003,"end":17231.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17232.645968750003,"end":17233.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17233.21971875,"end":17240.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17239.88534375,"end":17259.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17244.475343750004,"end":17244.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17244.96471875,"end":17245.015343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17245.015343749998,"end":17245.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17255.106593750003,"end":17255.747843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17259.224093750003,"end":17270.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17259.91596875,"end":17259.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17267.796593749998,"end":17268.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17269.551593750002,"end":17270.412218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17270.530343749997,"end":17290.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17290.69596875,"end":17340.865343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17341.270343750002,"end":17349.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":17346.164093749998,"end":17346.450968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17349.75846875,"end":17363.460968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17363.51159375,"end":17368.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17368.692218750002,"end":17373.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17373.21471875,"end":17386.225343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17386.68096875,"end":17388.672218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17388.554093749997,"end":17392.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":17388.79034375,"end":17389.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17392.992218749998,"end":17393.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":17393.04284375,"end":17395.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17402.29034375,"end":17403.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17403.809093750002,"end":17406.998468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17408.871593750002,"end":17420.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17421.122843750003,"end":17426.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17426.100968749997,"end":17431.062218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17431.349093750003,"end":17433.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17434.80846875,"end":17435.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17436.192218750002,"end":17437.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17437.33971875,"end":17437.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17437.694093750004,"end":17439.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17439.02721875,"end":17442.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17442.975968749997,"end":17443.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17443.077218749997,"end":17445.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17445.84471875,"end":17445.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17445.96284375,"end":17451.210968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17451.54846875,"end":17451.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17451.64971875,"end":17457.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17451.97034375,"end":17452.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17452.93221875,"end":17454.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17454.467843749997,"end":17460.576593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17459.37846875,"end":17460.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17460.94784375,"end":17469.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17461.859093749998,"end":17462.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17463.78284375,"end":17463.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":17467.68096875,"end":17468.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":17469.672218749998,"end":17469.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":17469.959093750003,"end":17470.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17470.02659375,"end":17470.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17470.43159375,"end":17473.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17473.975343750004,"end":17489.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":17488.35284375,"end":17488.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17488.36971875,"end":17488.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17489.82096875,"end":17489.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17490.59721875,"end":17491.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17490.630968750003,"end":17491.187843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17492.875343749998,"end":17497.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17498.37659375,"end":17498.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17499.709718750004,"end":17499.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17499.86159375,"end":17513.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":17507.100968749997,"end":17507.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17514.61034375,"end":17515.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17515.03221875,"end":17556.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17542.06596875,"end":17543.500343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17543.75346875,"end":17544.428468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17544.934718750003,"end":17545.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17545.356593750003,"end":17546.335343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17547.567218750002,"end":17550.975968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17552.207843750002,"end":17552.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17554.890968749998,"end":17555.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17556.848468750002,"end":17578.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17556.865343750003,"end":17556.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17562.41721875,"end":17562.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":17562.974093750003,"end":17563.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17572.035968750002,"end":17573.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17575.731593750003,"end":17578.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17578.11096875,"end":17578.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17578.14471875,"end":17578.397843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17578.397843749997,"end":17589.147218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17581.48596875,"end":17581.671593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17586.109718749998,"end":17586.312218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17586.85221875,"end":17593.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17590.851593749998,"end":17593.787843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17594.327843749998,"end":17594.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17595.374093749997,"end":17597.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17597.23034375,"end":17600.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17597.31471875,"end":17598.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17601.65159375,"end":17603.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17604.435968750004,"end":17605.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17606.207843750002,"end":17607.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17607.03471875,"end":17609.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17610.73034375,"end":17623.757843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17611.43909375,"end":17611.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17611.96221875,"end":17612.147843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17623.757843749998,"end":17623.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17623.825343750003,"end":17623.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17623.90971875,"end":17623.960343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17624.584718750004,"end":17624.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17624.97284375,"end":17625.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17625.023468749998,"end":17625.209093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17625.209093750003,"end":17625.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17625.934718750003,"end":17626.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17626.069718749997,"end":17628.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17628.97221875,"end":17629.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17629.68096875,"end":17631.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17629.88346875,"end":17630.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17630.575343750003,"end":17630.912843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17631.756593750004,"end":17636.076593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17631.79034375,"end":17632.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17634.152843750002,"end":17635.975343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17636.85284375,"end":17647.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17647.652843750002,"end":17654.419718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17654.67284375,"end":17655.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17656.326593750004,"end":17672.999093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17673.58971875,"end":17674.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17675.46284375,"end":17676.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17677.319093750004,"end":17679.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17679.37784375,"end":17680.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17681.25096875,"end":17683.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17688.912218750003,"end":17688.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17688.96284375,"end":17690.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17689.92471875,"end":17690.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17690.02596875,"end":17690.279093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17690.32971875,"end":17690.835968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17690.835968749998,"end":17690.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17690.88659375,"end":17691.662843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17691.81471875,"end":17693.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17694.02534375,"end":17711.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17696.843468749998,"end":17696.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17697.029093750003,"end":17698.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17712.874718749998,"end":17714.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17714.545343750004,"end":17717.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17717.98784375,"end":17718.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17718.59534375,"end":17719.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17720.333468750003,"end":17737.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17722.08846875,"end":17723.421593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17723.421593749998,"end":17723.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17738.389718749997,"end":17745.240968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17745.747218750003,"end":17752.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":17746.65846875,"end":17747.468468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17747.468468749998,"end":17747.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17751.92346875,"end":17752.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17752.328468749998,"end":17754.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17754.184718750003,"end":17754.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17754.437843749998,"end":17756.850968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17757.30659375,"end":17761.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17762.06534375,"end":17766.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17767.600343750004,"end":17768.747843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17769.25409375,"end":17779.935968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17773.793468750002,"end":17775.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17778.60284375,"end":17783.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17781.75846875,"end":17786.078468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17784.74534375,"end":17785.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17786.078468749998,"end":17787.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17787.69846875,"end":17787.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17787.81659375,"end":17788.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17789.014718749997,"end":17798.279093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17799.20721875,"end":17807.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17801.31659375,"end":17801.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17806.24409375,"end":17807.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17807.30721875,"end":17813.922218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17814.850343750004,"end":17818.444718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17819.507843749998,"end":17847.537218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17826.882218749997,"end":17827.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17827.96221875,"end":17828.569718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17829.64971875,"end":17830.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17847.537218750003,"end":17847.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":17847.60471875,"end":17847.756593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17847.756593750004,"end":17848.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17848.482218750003,"end":17848.819718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17849.545343750004,"end":17867.787218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17867.787218750003,"end":17868.225968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17868.225968749997,"end":17871.263468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":17871.55034375,"end":17871.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17871.75284375,"end":17871.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17871.76971875,"end":17872.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17872.512218750002,"end":17874.655343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17874.655343749997,"end":17874.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17874.942218750002,"end":17883.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17883.98721875,"end":17885.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17886.53534375,"end":17893.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17888.71221875,"end":17889.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17893.58909375,"end":17896.272218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17896.795343750004,"end":17903.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17903.984093749998,"end":17906.414093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17906.414093749998,"end":17906.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17906.56596875,"end":17908.810343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17906.582843750002,"end":17906.734718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17909.19846875,"end":17912.404718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17912.590343750002,"end":17912.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17913.18096875,"end":17916.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17916.91034375,"end":17917.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17918.294093750003,"end":17929.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17929.83659375,"end":17935.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17935.844093749998,"end":17937.818468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17938.324718750002,"end":17942.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17943.13409375,"end":17947.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17948.31471875,"end":17950.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17950.64346875,"end":17953.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17953.07346875,"end":17957.984093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17958.32159375,"end":17971.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17971.973468750002,"end":17974.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17974.757843749998,"end":17978.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":17978.80784375,"end":17994.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17983.937843749998,"end":17984.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17984.039093749998,"end":17984.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17984.91659375,"end":17985.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17985.00096875,"end":17986.030343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17986.030343749997,"end":17986.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17986.16534375,"end":17986.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17986.60409375,"end":17986.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17988.224093750003,"end":17988.240968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17988.240968750004,"end":17991.194093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17992.223468750002,"end":17998.247843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":17998.163468749997,"end":17998.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":17998.31534375,"end":18012.490343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18012.490343750003,"end":18014.734718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18016.388468750003,"end":18018.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18018.835343749997,"end":18029.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18029.97284375,"end":18044.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18030.546593749998,"end":18030.732218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18030.833468750003,"end":18032.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":18037.279718750004,"end":18037.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18037.43159375,"end":18037.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":18039.287843750004,"end":18039.304718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18039.304718749998,"end":18039.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18044.029718750004,"end":18044.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":18044.80596875,"end":18044.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18044.82284375,"end":18045.312218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18044.974718750003,"end":18045.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18045.56534375,"end":18045.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18045.801593750002,"end":18045.953468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18045.953468749998,"end":18047.202218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18047.742218749998,"end":18050.897843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18059.68971875,"end":18061.022843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18061.39409375,"end":18061.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18066.77721875,"end":18066.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18066.794093750003,"end":18067.452218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18073.18971875,"end":18077.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18078.33659375,"end":18079.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18080.05784375,"end":18080.091593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18080.091593750003,"end":18080.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18080.24346875,"end":18080.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18080.749718749998,"end":18080.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18080.76659375,"end":18083.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18083.888468750003,"end":18084.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18084.833468750003,"end":18088.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18088.832843750002,"end":18089.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18089.609093749998,"end":18090.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18091.54971875,"end":18094.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18095.700968750003,"end":18098.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18098.92409375,"end":18100.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18100.999718749998,"end":18102.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18103.96971875,"end":18105.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18106.85534375,"end":18109.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18110.85471875,"end":18111.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18112.052843750003,"end":18112.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18113.28471875,"end":18120.591593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18121.452218749997,"end":18122.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18123.139718749997,"end":18123.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18125.350343750004,"end":18126.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18127.746593750002,"end":18129.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18130.98659375,"end":18131.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18132.100343750004,"end":18132.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18132.960968749998,"end":18135.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18136.26846875,"end":18137.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18138.445343749998,"end":18139.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18140.04846875,"end":18143.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18145.02659375,"end":18145.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18146.207843750002,"end":18146.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18146.81534375,"end":18147.625343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18148.18221875,"end":18149.498468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18150.81471875,"end":18151.624718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18152.890343749998,"end":18155.826593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18156.40034375,"end":18157.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18158.32409375,"end":18159.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18160.09596875,"end":18161.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18162.96471875,"end":18165.850343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18167.57159375,"end":18168.381593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18169.022843749997,"end":18170.609093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18171.132218749997,"end":18172.617218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18173.71409375,"end":18176.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18177.19034375,"end":18177.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18179.130968750003,"end":18181.375343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18181.797218749998,"end":18184.514093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18185.40846875,"end":18186.741593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18188.90159375,"end":18189.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18189.71159375,"end":18191.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18191.264093750004,"end":18193.710968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18196.225343750004,"end":18197.693468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18198.942218750002,"end":18199.802843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18200.27534375,"end":18201.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18202.772843749997,"end":18204.983468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18206.434718750003,"end":18207.818468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18208.544093750003,"end":18211.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18211.96971875,"end":18213.201593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18214.11284375,"end":18214.804718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18215.69909375,"end":18216.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18218.061593749997,"end":18220.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18220.94721875,"end":18223.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18223.47846875,"end":18225.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18226.077218749997,"end":18227.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18229.36784375,"end":18231.662843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18232.05096875,"end":18233.654093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18234.835343749997,"end":18236.640968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18237.484718749998,"end":18238.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18239.374718749998,"end":18239.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18241.028468750003,"end":18243.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18248.014718749997,"end":18248.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18249.921593749998,"end":18252.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18252.92534375,"end":18253.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18254.646593750003,"end":18258.764093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18259.21971875,"end":18259.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18261.00846875,"end":18262.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18262.881593750004,"end":18263.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18263.99534375,"end":18265.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18266.08784375,"end":18267.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18267.640343749998,"end":18268.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18271.67346875,"end":18273.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18275.06534375,"end":18283.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18284.00909375,"end":18286.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18286.96221875,"end":18287.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18288.16034375,"end":18288.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18289.476593749998,"end":18291.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18291.569093750004,"end":18292.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18294.539093749998,"end":18297.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18298.403468750003,"end":18299.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18299.73659375,"end":18300.765968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18301.84596875,"end":18304.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18305.609093749998,"end":18311.177843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18311.684093750002,"end":18314.772218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18314.94096875,"end":18318.450968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18319.58159375,"end":18319.935968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18320.39159375,"end":18320.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18322.365968750004,"end":18323.513468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18323.969093749998,"end":18325.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18326.027843750002,"end":18328.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18329.38596875,"end":18331.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18333.46971875,"end":18335.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18336.23721875,"end":18338.093468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18338.734718749998,"end":18340.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18341.468468749998,"end":18342.092843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18342.632843749998,"end":18347.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18347.94846875,"end":18352.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18351.357218750003,"end":18351.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18353.382218749997,"end":18354.647843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18354.37784375,"end":18354.546593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18354.647843749997,"end":18355.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18355.23846875,"end":18357.077843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18355.289093749998,"end":18356.554718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":18356.554718749998,"end":18356.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18357.668468750002,"end":18359.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":18357.85409375,"end":18357.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18357.87096875,"end":18358.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":18358.140968749998,"end":18358.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18359.693468750003,"end":18363.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18361.95471875,"end":18362.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":18362.039093749998,"end":18362.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18364.19909375,"end":18364.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18365.44784375,"end":18366.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18367.624718749998,"end":18373.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18374.29034375,"end":18380.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18375.69096875,"end":18376.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18376.568468750003,"end":18376.905968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":18376.905968749998,"end":18376.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18377.395343750002,"end":18379.639718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18380.09534375,"end":18380.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18381.14159375,"end":18384.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18384.63471875,"end":18386.794718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18386.811593749997,"end":18386.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18386.84534375,"end":18390.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18387.132218749997,"end":18387.351593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18388.21221875,"end":18389.460968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18390.96284375,"end":18391.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18391.62096875,"end":18392.194718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18392.684093750002,"end":18394.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18393.29159375,"end":18393.359093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18393.79784375,"end":18398.607218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18396.97034375,"end":18397.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18398.03346875,"end":18403.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18398.826593750004,"end":18399.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18404.294093750003,"end":18405.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18405.40784375,"end":18407.787218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18409.035968750002,"end":18411.077843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18411.31409375,"end":18412.326593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18414.840968750003,"end":18421.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18417.22034375,"end":18420.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18421.945343749998,"end":18422.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18422.83971875,"end":18423.194093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18423.734093749998,"end":18427.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18428.256593750004,"end":18435.529718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18429.58971875,"end":18429.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18435.529718750004,"end":18435.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18435.79971875,"end":18437.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18437.28471875,"end":18438.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18438.73596875,"end":18441.975968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18442.364093750002,"end":18444.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18445.40159375,"end":18446.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18446.86971875,"end":18449.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18449.974718750003,"end":18452.202218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18453.484718749998,"end":18454.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18454.86846875,"end":18460.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18460.26846875,"end":18462.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18462.15846875,"end":18476.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18464.115968750004,"end":18464.554718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18467.98034375,"end":18469.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18472.94159375,"end":18474.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18475.96221875,"end":18476.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18477.413468749997,"end":18484.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":18479.03346875,"end":18480.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18484.872218750003,"end":18485.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18485.02409375,"end":18485.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18485.05784375,"end":18485.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18485.26034375,"end":18489.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18489.715343750002,"end":18490.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18490.10346875,"end":18492.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18492.97221875,"end":18496.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18496.76909375,"end":18504.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18502.25346875,"end":18502.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18504.700343750003,"end":18505.999718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18505.69596875,"end":18507.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18507.332843750002,"end":18508.109093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18507.83909375,"end":18514.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18511.11284375,"end":18511.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18512.90159375,"end":18513.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18513.74534375,"end":18515.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18514.403468750003,"end":18514.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18515.027843750002,"end":18515.078468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18515.078468749998,"end":18516.209093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18518.639093750004,"end":18518.655968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":18518.655968749998,"end":18523.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18530.856593750003,"end":18532.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18534.50159375,"end":18536.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18536.71221875,"end":18539.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18540.08721875,"end":18541.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18542.09534375,"end":18542.905343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18543.732218750003,"end":18543.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18543.968468749998,"end":18544.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18544.390343749998,"end":18545.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18546.09471875,"end":18546.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18547.545968749997,"end":18548.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18549.38534375,"end":18557.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18558.413468749997,"end":18564.825968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18565.19721875,"end":18569.787218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18573.381593750004,"end":18576.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18576.58784375,"end":18579.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18579.76034375,"end":18583.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18584.772218750004,"end":18589.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18589.851593749998,"end":18597.765968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18598.035968750002,"end":18605.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18606.287843750004,"end":18607.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18608.65034375,"end":18611.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18612.514718749997,"end":18618.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18620.935343750003,"end":18621.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18622.28534375,"end":18624.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18624.310343750003,"end":18626.841593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18627.482843750004,"end":18642.788468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18643.68284375,"end":18644.695343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18644.91471875,"end":18646.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18647.007218749997,"end":18647.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18649.622843750003,"end":18650.179718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18651.968468749998,"end":18654.381593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18654.73596875,"end":18655.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18655.88346875,"end":18657.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18659.123468750004,"end":18660.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18660.912218750003,"end":18662.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18663.61221875,"end":18666.717218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18667.30784375,"end":18668.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18668.624093749997,"end":18669.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18670.176593750002,"end":18681.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18682.59659375,"end":18683.187218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18683.929718749998,"end":18685.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18686.19096875,"end":18686.865968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18687.97971875,"end":18688.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18690.19034375,"end":18690.882218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18691.25346875,"end":18692.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18693.194093750004,"end":18694.240343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18695.13471875,"end":18697.429718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18697.952843749998,"end":18699.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18700.29846875,"end":18701.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18702.559718750003,"end":18704.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18704.97284375,"end":18706.795343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18708.398468749998,"end":18710.912843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18712.31346875,"end":18715.030343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18715.70534375,"end":18726.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18726.404093750003,"end":18733.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18734.132843749998,"end":18739.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18740.629718750002,"end":18742.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18743.22846875,"end":18747.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18748.560968750004,"end":18749.303468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18750.248468750004,"end":18752.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18753.420968749997,"end":18753.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18754.01159375,"end":18756.677843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18757.082843750002,"end":18759.209093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18759.732218750003,"end":18761.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18761.841593750003,"end":18762.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18762.95534375,"end":18765.874718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18767.19096875,"end":18769.570343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18769.958468750003,"end":18771.342218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18772.844093749998,"end":18774.312218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18777.21471875,"end":18780.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18780.927218750003,"end":18786.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18787.272218750004,"end":18788.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18789.01034375,"end":18791.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18791.33909375,"end":18793.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18797.00909375,"end":18799.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18799.624718749998,"end":18805.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18806.594093749998,"end":18809.209718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18809.78346875,"end":18823.334093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18824.00909375,"end":18829.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18830.590343750002,"end":18832.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18833.61096875,"end":18835.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18835.652843750002,"end":18836.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18836.68221875,"end":18838.960343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18838.97721875,"end":18838.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18839.31471875,"end":18847.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18847.76909375,"end":18849.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18850.38471875,"end":18851.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18851.78534375,"end":18852.460343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18854.147843749997,"end":18858.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18860.10471875,"end":18862.585343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18863.88471875,"end":18875.781593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18876.692843750003,"end":18877.654718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18878.02596875,"end":18883.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18885.147218750004,"end":18889.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18889.382843749998,"end":18892.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18893.264093750004,"end":18893.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18894.209093750003,"end":18894.732218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18894.81659375,"end":18895.710968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18895.997843750003,"end":18896.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18898.984718749998,"end":18899.794718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18899.84534375,"end":18900.672218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18902.427218750003,"end":18903.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18904.857218750003,"end":18911.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18912.60284375,"end":18918.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":18918.914093749998,"end":18923.841593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18924.162218750003,"end":18948.344093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18948.765968749998,"end":18970.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18970.85534375,"end":18996.724718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":18996.944093750004,"end":19045.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19045.797218749998,"end":19047.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19048.092218750004,"end":19061.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19062.098468750002,"end":19092.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19089.638468750003,"end":19094.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19094.380343750003,"end":19095.257843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19095.443468750003,"end":19097.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19097.569718749997,"end":19098.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19098.717218750004,"end":19100.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19098.818468750003,"end":19099.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19101.73784375,"end":19136.078468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19136.41596875,"end":19141.343468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19141.37721875,"end":19141.444718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19141.444718749997,"end":19141.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19141.47846875,"end":19141.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19141.512218750002,"end":19141.545968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19141.545968750004,"end":19143.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19141.647218750004,"end":19141.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19144.76909375,"end":19145.865968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19146.574718750002,"end":19147.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19146.76034375,"end":19155.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19155.50159375,"end":19156.851593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19156.716593750003,"end":19156.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19156.851593749998,"end":19157.897843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19158.45471875,"end":19159.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19159.82159375,"end":19160.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19161.00284375,"end":19162.842218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19163.466593750003,"end":19166.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19166.976593749998,"end":19167.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19168.647218750004,"end":19180.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19180.679093749997,"end":19184.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19184.138468750003,"end":19193.554718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19185.26909375,"end":19185.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19187.530343750004,"end":19188.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19194.060968750004,"end":19195.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19195.731593750003,"end":19198.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19198.904093750003,"end":19202.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19199.41034375,"end":19199.444093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19199.663468749997,"end":19201.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19202.498468750004,"end":19204.304093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19204.388468750003,"end":19218.630968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19205.367218749998,"end":19206.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19211.172218749998,"end":19215.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19215.036593750003,"end":19215.694718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19215.694718749997,"end":19215.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19215.71159375,"end":19215.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19216.116593749997,"end":19216.200968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19218.47909375,"end":19218.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19218.630968750003,"end":19220.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19220.99346875,"end":19223.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19223.271593750003,"end":19223.389718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19223.42346875,"end":19223.507843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19223.507843749998,"end":19225.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19224.030968749998,"end":19225.515968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19225.53284375,"end":19225.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19226.25846875,"end":19226.342843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19226.342843750004,"end":19226.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19226.39346875,"end":19242.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19242.880343750003,"end":19255.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19255.68846875,"end":19265.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19266.23534375,"end":19266.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19267.163468749997,"end":19268.226593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19268.59784375,"end":19270.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19270.13346875,"end":19271.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19272.006593750004,"end":19278.452843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19278.942218750002,"end":19294.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19294.53471875,"end":19295.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19295.496593750002,"end":19296.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19295.952218750004,"end":19297.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19296.12096875,"end":19296.171593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19297.04909375,"end":19300.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19301.031593749998,"end":19304.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19303.326593750004,"end":19311.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19305.26721875,"end":19305.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19310.46471875,"end":19317.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19314.46409375,"end":19315.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19315.037843750004,"end":19316.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19317.94034375,"end":19318.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19318.26096875,"end":19319.678468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19319.965343750002,"end":19320.117218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19320.218468749998,"end":19321.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19321.163468749997,"end":19322.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19326.47909375,"end":19326.951593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19327.694093750004,"end":19328.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19330.967843750004,"end":19331.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19331.828468749998,"end":19332.756593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19333.802843750003,"end":19334.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19334.747843750003,"end":19335.591593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19335.574718750002,"end":19335.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19335.591593750003,"end":19335.709718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19336.317218750002,"end":19341.497843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19340.58659375,"end":19345.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19345.952843749998,"end":19350.374093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19350.492218749998,"end":19359.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19359.60471875,"end":19360.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19359.840968750003,"end":19363.755968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19364.22846875,"end":19365.038468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19366.422218749998,"end":19367.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19367.19846875,"end":19369.679093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19369.679093749997,"end":19372.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19371.889718750004,"end":19379.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19379.75346875,"end":19380.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19380.006593750004,"end":19394.654093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19395.02534375,"end":19395.497843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19397.33721875,"end":19399.109093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19399.80096875,"end":19399.834718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19399.834718750004,"end":19408.710968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19399.86846875,"end":19400.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19408.710968749998,"end":19408.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19408.96409375,"end":19409.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19409.115968750004,"end":19409.132843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19409.132843749998,"end":19409.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19409.234093749998,"end":19409.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19409.25096875,"end":19409.858468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19409.301593750002,"end":19409.318468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19409.318468750003,"end":19410.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19409.92596875,"end":19412.372843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19410.97221875,"end":19411.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19412.64284375,"end":19416.304718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19417.030343750004,"end":19418.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19418.616593749997,"end":19420.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19418.65034375,"end":19419.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19420.03409375,"end":19421.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19421.09721875,"end":19422.413468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19422.734093749998,"end":19428.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19424.55659375,"end":19427.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19428.48846875,"end":19428.539093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19428.539093749998,"end":19428.640343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19428.640343749998,"end":19428.944093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19428.944093750004,"end":19433.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19434.107843750004,"end":19438.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19439.45721875,"end":19442.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19442.51159375,"end":19456.062218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19456.51784375,"end":19467.773468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19468.043468750002,"end":19479.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19479.855968750002,"end":19486.116593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19486.740968750004,"end":19488.107843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19489.01909375,"end":19500.764093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19501.506593750004,"end":19504.662218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19505.809718750003,"end":19509.201593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19509.927218750003,"end":19511.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19512.12096875,"end":19515.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19516.187843749998,"end":19517.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19520.32221875,"end":19521.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19522.41471875,"end":19523.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19523.79846875,"end":19525.772843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19526.397218750004,"end":19530.717218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19531.81409375,"end":19536.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19537.50096875,"end":19548.672218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19548.942218750002,"end":19551.709718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19552.030343750004,"end":19554.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19554.443468750003,"end":19567.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19568.280968749998,"end":19571.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19571.90909375,"end":19573.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19574.355968750002,"end":19577.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19577.039093749998,"end":19579.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19579.51971875,"end":19579.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19579.80659375,"end":19605.625343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19584.632843749998,"end":19584.936593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19598.031593749998,"end":19598.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19599.719093749998,"end":19599.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19599.97221875,"end":19600.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19600.090343750002,"end":19600.107218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19600.107218750003,"end":19600.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19600.140968749998,"end":19600.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19604.05596875,"end":19604.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19605.77721875,"end":19607.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19606.28346875,"end":19607.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19608.89909375,"end":19609.607843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19609.54034375,"end":19611.396593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19611.32909375,"end":19612.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19611.43034375,"end":19632.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19632.625343749998,"end":19634.835968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19634.515343749998,"end":19639.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19640.387843750003,"end":19643.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19640.421593749998,"end":19640.725343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19643.020343750002,"end":19643.678468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19643.678468750004,"end":19646.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19646.310968750004,"end":19650.310343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19648.656593749998,"end":19654.326593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19654.326593750004,"end":19654.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19654.512218750002,"end":19658.646593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19659.22034375,"end":19660.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19660.013468750003,"end":19667.624093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19668.029093750003,"end":19668.872843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19668.332843750002,"end":19677.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19668.95721875,"end":19668.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19669.24409375,"end":19671.100343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19671.522218750004,"end":19671.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19671.57284375,"end":19674.272843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19677.25971875,"end":19677.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19677.27659375,"end":19683.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":19678.052843750003,"end":19681.545968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19683.80721875,"end":19688.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19689.460343749997,"end":19692.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19693.139093750004,"end":19694.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":19694.89409375,"end":19696.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19704.512843750003,"end":19710.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19712.89971875,"end":19713.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19717.000343749998,"end":19717.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19717.725968749997,"end":19719.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19719.497843750003,"end":19719.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19719.531593749998,"end":19720.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19720.679093749997,"end":19739.140343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19738.83659375,"end":19739.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19739.47784375,"end":19740.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19741.80659375,"end":19742.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19743.17346875,"end":19752.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19752.505343750003,"end":19752.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19752.67409375,"end":19752.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19752.69096875,"end":19781.091593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":19752.724718750003,"end":19752.741593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19779.522218750004,"end":19779.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19781.34471875,"end":19823.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19823.56596875,"end":19850.616593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19850.616593749997,"end":19850.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19850.63346875,"end":19850.734718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19850.734718749998,"end":19851.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19851.578468749998,"end":19853.468468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19854.22784375,"end":19856.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19856.607218750003,"end":19856.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19856.65784375,"end":19856.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19856.910968750002,"end":19856.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19856.927843750003,"end":19856.944718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19856.944718749997,"end":19859.155343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19856.96159375,"end":19856.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19859.155343750004,"end":19859.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19859.543468750002,"end":19860.842843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19861.39971875,"end":19869.280343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19870.107218750003,"end":19871.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19872.26721875,"end":19873.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19873.701593750004,"end":19878.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19878.645968750003,"end":19882.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19878.83159375,"end":19878.865343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19882.223468750002,"end":19907.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19907.974718750003,"end":19908.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19908.00846875,"end":19908.413468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19908.531593749998,"end":19926.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19908.818468750003,"end":19909.459718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19926.99284375,"end":19927.195343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19927.060343750003,"end":19940.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19937.01659375,"end":19937.404718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19938.974093750003,"end":19939.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19940.64471875,"end":19940.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19940.72909375,"end":19940.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19940.83034375,"end":19946.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19946.33159375,"end":19946.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19946.348468750002,"end":19947.225968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":19946.787218750003,"end":19958.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19948.64346875,"end":19950.482843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19957.82346875,"end":19963.240343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19963.544093750003,"end":19968.201593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":19968.404093750003,"end":19968.420968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":19968.420968750004,"end":20039.279093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20040.59534375,"end":20046.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":20046.062843749998,"end":20049.218468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20049.218468749998,"end":20050.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":20050.028468750003,"end":20059.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20050.41659375,"end":20050.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20052.053468750004,"end":20053.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20054.702843749998,"end":20054.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20054.75346875,"end":20055.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20057.35221875,"end":20061.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20062.279718750004,"end":20064.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20066.11034375,"end":20066.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20067.966593750003,"end":20068.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20080.200968750003,"end":20082.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20088.14909375,"end":20108.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20108.53409375,"end":20110.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20110.62659375,"end":20114.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20114.592218750004,"end":20116.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20116.499093750004,"end":20118.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20118.996593750002,"end":20131.568468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20124.480968750002,"end":20125.679093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20131.72034375,"end":20133.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20133.492218749998,"end":20134.943468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20135.584718750004,"end":20145.203468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20145.929093749997,"end":20153.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20153.843468749998,"end":20156.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20157.99471875,"end":20159.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20159.631593750004,"end":20160.812843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20161.234718749998,"end":20163.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20164.069718749997,"end":20165.132843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20165.48721875,"end":20166.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20167.07346875,"end":20169.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20169.874718749998,"end":20172.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20172.64221875,"end":20172.912218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20172.912218750003,"end":20172.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20172.94596875,"end":20172.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20173.249718749998,"end":20175.764093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20175.93284375,"end":20188.437218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20188.99409375,"end":20193.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20193.44909375,"end":20194.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20195.676593750002,"end":20196.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20197.14471875,"end":20202.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20202.91596875,"end":20206.257218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20206.577843749998,"end":20208.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20209.04159375,"end":20210.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20211.67409375,"end":20212.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20213.209718750004,"end":20213.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20214.54284375,"end":20215.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20216.787218750003,"end":20226.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20221.78221875,"end":20222.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20226.52409375,"end":20235.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20226.86159375,"end":20230.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20235.788468749997,"end":20241.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20241.50909375,"end":20243.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20243.75346875,"end":20244.867218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20245.32284375,"end":20250.435968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20250.68909375,"end":20258.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20259.210968749998,"end":20265.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20265.67409375,"end":20266.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20267.395343750002,"end":20269.538468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20269.943468750003,"end":20271.867218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20272.778468750003,"end":20276.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20276.96346875,"end":20278.515968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20278.95471875,"end":20289.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20279.68034375,"end":20279.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20279.69721875,"end":20281.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20284.99596875,"end":20285.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20290.64909375,"end":20291.796593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20292.319718749997,"end":20293.045343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20293.31534375,"end":20294.732843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20294.952218750004,"end":20295.812843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20296.335968749998,"end":20297.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20298.310343750003,"end":20299.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20301.63471875,"end":20303.069093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20304.030968749998,"end":20304.554093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20305.043468750002,"end":20308.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20309.734718749998,"end":20311.101593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20311.709093750003,"end":20314.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20314.898468749998,"end":20316.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20317.632218749997,"end":20318.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20319.06659375,"end":20320.365968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20322.64409375,"end":20323.538468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20324.669093750003,"end":20325.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20326.22159375,"end":20333.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20327.70659375,"end":20328.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20333.309093750002,"end":20335.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20336.279093750003,"end":20337.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20339.147843749997,"end":20348.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20349.070343749998,"end":20349.795968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20351.179718749998,"end":20357.389718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20357.997218750003,"end":20358.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20359.279718750004,"end":20360.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20362.40159375,"end":20365.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20365.692218750002,"end":20368.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20368.544093750003,"end":20374.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20375.530343750004,"end":20377.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20377.13346875,"end":20377.960343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20378.61846875,"end":20382.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20383.29284375,"end":20384.507843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20384.86221875,"end":20389.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20390.380343750003,"end":20392.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20392.96221875,"end":20397.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20398.36221875,"end":20400.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20400.285968750002,"end":20403.914093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20403.053468750004,"end":20410.647218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20404.116593749997,"end":20404.656593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20406.66471875,"end":20407.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20409.398468749998,"end":20410.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20410.647218750004,"end":20411.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20411.00159375,"end":20414.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20415.77721875,"end":20435.655968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20417.093468749998,"end":20417.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20417.14409375,"end":20417.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20417.46471875,"end":20417.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20432.33159375,"end":20433.749093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20433.765968749998,"end":20440.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20437.107218750003,"end":20439.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20440.195343749998,"end":20450.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20440.499093750004,"end":20441.460968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20442.13596875,"end":20443.148468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20450.13471875,"end":20453.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20454.302843750003,"end":20455.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20455.889093750004,"end":20456.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20456.90159375,"end":20457.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20458.79159375,"end":20460.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20461.170968750004,"end":20470.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20462.537843750004,"end":20462.655968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20462.655968749998,"end":20462.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20462.976593749998,"end":20463.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20463.97221875,"end":20464.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20466.452843749998,"end":20466.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20466.57096875,"end":20466.655343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20466.655343750004,"end":20466.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20471.515343749998,"end":20471.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20471.54909375,"end":20478.906593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20479.44659375,"end":20481.404093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20481.91034375,"end":20490.060968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":20490.077843749998,"end":20549.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20549.950343750003,"end":20555.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20555.72159375,"end":20559.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20560.80096875,"end":20571.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20571.75284375,"end":20573.592218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20574.60471875,"end":20583.210968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20583.801593750002,"end":20586.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20587.64909375,"end":20587.935968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20589.03284375,"end":20593.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20594.027843750002,"end":20595.850343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20596.22159375,"end":20604.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20604.490343750003,"end":20605.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20606.36346875,"end":20613.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20614.176593750002,"end":20616.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20616.89346875,"end":20619.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20620.15034375,"end":20624.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20624.520968750003,"end":20628.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20629.195343749998,"end":20643.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20644.467218750004,"end":20651.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20651.80784375,"end":20673.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20654.45721875,"end":20654.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":20654.55846875,"end":20654.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20654.74409375,"end":20655.216593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20659.249718749998,"end":20659.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20674.26846875,"end":20679.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20679.31409375,"end":20683.296593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20683.583468750003,"end":20693.185343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20693.75909375,"end":20695.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20695.834718750004,"end":20698.568468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20699.04096875,"end":20724.640343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20720.489093750002,"end":20720.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20723.442218750002,"end":20725.787843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20728.28534375,"end":20731.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20732.14971875,"end":20734.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20734.950968750003,"end":20737.397843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20738.325968750003,"end":20740.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20742.122843750003,"end":20745.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20747.742218749998,"end":20750.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20750.273468749998,"end":20750.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20750.357843750004,"end":20750.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20753.36159375,"end":20757.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20758.84596875,"end":20759.639093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20759.976593749998,"end":20760.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20761.005968750003,"end":20761.967843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20763.08159375,"end":20764.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20764.54971875,"end":20765.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20765.71409375,"end":20770.202843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20770.506593750004,"end":20771.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20771.73846875,"end":20774.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20775.29909375,"end":20779.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20779.905968749998,"end":20782.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20783.348468750002,"end":20786.132843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20786.57159375,"end":20787.584093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":20788.309718750003,"end":20792.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":20800.898468749998,"end":20801.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20803.429718749998,"end":20803.530968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":20803.514093750004,"end":20804.054093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":20803.530968749998,"end":20804.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":20804.037218750003,"end":20804.796593749998}],"whisperx":[{"start":696.798,"end":712.088,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":724.89,"end":744.186,"text":"哎 你等我一会儿"},{"start":762.961,"end":765.886,"text":"哎呦 真是來不及了"},{"start":1786.906,"end":1792.251,"text":"報告委員會 出席委員11人 已組法定人數 請主席宣布開會現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1804.793,"end":1829.821,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第一次全體委員會議議事錄時間一百一十四年三月五日星期三九十至九十三分地點群閒樓八零一會議室出席委員邱委員鄭鈞等十五人主席劉委員建國報告事項一本院第十一屆第三會期各委員會召集委員選舉時間及地點業經提報本院第十一屆第三會期第二次會議決定照案通過再案"},{"start":1830.481,"end":1858.429,"text":"二一立法院各委員會組織法第三條之四規定本會應至召集委員二人三宣讀本會期本會召集委員選舉人名冊選舉事項選舉第十一屆第三會期本會召集委員主席宣告推選蘇委員清泉及劉委員建國委本會召集委員一立法院各委員會召集委員選舉辦法第五條之規定本次召集委員之選舉以推選行之召集委員當選人依同"},{"start":1858.929,"end":1863.371,"text":"同法第八條之規定由國民黨黨團民進黨黨團及台灣民眾黨黨團書面同意推選定之宣讀完畢請問委員會上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處"},{"start":1876.124,"end":1902.172,"text":"沒有那我們議事錄確定本日的會議議程為邀請衛生福利部部長就有關全國集中症醫療量能進行專案報告並備諮詢好我們現在介紹在場的委員陳昭志委員林業勤委員王振旭委員"},{"start":1906.846,"end":1932.173,"text":"好 那我們介紹我們今天出席的行政官員部長邱太元醫事司司長劉業平護理及健康照護司司長劉淑鳳蔡淑鳳 謝謝 謝謝護署醫療及社會福利機構管理委員會執行長林慶豐"},{"start":1936.448,"end":1948.971,"text":"中央健康保險署署長石崇良郭建署署長各有食藥署的署長姜治康署長"},{"start":1966.934,"end":1987.331,"text":"石耀石市長江志剛還有我們國民健康署署長吳昭君好好 接著我們請邱部長報告 6分鐘"},{"start":1997.333,"end":2019.193,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生今天大院第11屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開前提委員會議本部呈邀列席報告深感榮幸此就有關全國集中症醫療量能提出專題報告敬請各位委員不吝會議指教為應應大量緊急傷患傷病患的醫療處理"},{"start":2021.114,"end":2035.683,"text":"送醫途中及現場的緊急救護以及傷病患的轉診問題民國84年制定了緊急醫療救護法並建構全國緊急醫療體系以確保緊急傷病患的生命及健康"},{"start":2036.789,"end":2056.922,"text":"一 緊急醫療應變體系 全國緊急醫療應變量能醫院可提供的醫療緊急總列人力設施作為量能等區分為重度級、中度級及一般級急救責任醫院截至114年共有203家急救責任醫院51家重度級、75家中度級"},{"start":2058.383,"end":2074.972,"text":"及77家一班級急救責任醫院提供前天後緊急傷病患醫療照護為了使急重症病人頭上轉診全國監視14個急診轉診網絡以區域聯防概念提供急診病人即時、順暢、有效的轉診作業二、緊急醫療應變監測及應變行為為確保緊急醫療收治量能每日持續監測急重症醫療量能包括"},{"start":2088.064,"end":2111.646,"text":"醫院急診就診人次等待住院人數、加護病患數等如臨近警戒指及通知醫院啟動院內調床及轉診合作機制相關急診及時資訊信息公布於衛生部、衛護部網站"},{"start":2114.119,"end":2130.129,"text":"健保快易通APP醫院網站及醫院明顯處供民眾查詢了解應用春節假期本部疾病管制署每年訂定因應農曆春節呼吸到傳染病疫情應變"},{"start":2131.69,"end":2141.175,"text":"準備計畫以確保農曆春節期間醫療服務量能以民眾就醫前意以農曆春節期間鼓勵基層醫療機構開設假日門診如亦即使量能增"},{"start":2146.403,"end":2162.82,"text":"急診量增加立即啟動院內調床機制提高急診遷床比例特殊病房彈性調整為一般病床來收治我們加強區域醫院聯訪機制落實醫療分級機制減緩"},{"start":2166.343,"end":2185.383,"text":"急診用色情形進入醫院用色造成醫護人員工作負擔過重本部已召開五場會議收集各專業團體意見積極制定短期三大強化應用策略以及持續中長程的兩個大改革方向"},{"start":2186.71,"end":2205.292,"text":"三大短期應用策略為一 醫學中心強化院內病床調度二 加強區域醫院聯訪機制三 強化民眾分歧就醫資訊兩大改革方向為我們持續強化護理人力整備及鼓勵醫院投入集中症"},{"start":2206.417,"end":2231.844,"text":"另外研議健保調整幾戶三 中長期規劃 針對中長期照護人力問題行政院於113年以核定護理人力十二項策略計畫114年以編列公務預算約六十六點八五億衛護部於113年透過十二次公開會議與巡迴論壇收集護理人員意見且以達初步最大共識"},{"start":2233.811,"end":2245.647,"text":"是預算程序完成後即啟動執行與留任醫院護理人員令急診護理人員之月班獎勵將與急性一般病床護理人員"},{"start":2247.068,"end":2267.105,"text":"直接獎勵相同二 屬外健保屬意邀集相關學會及基準專家共同研商調整健保知乎己乎為提升病房效力擴大推動在宅急症照顧ACAH研議新增門診靜脈抗生素的治療"},{"start":2268.43,"end":2291.222,"text":"OPAT以及提早出院在家治療ESD等計畫以減少住院需求及提升病房周轉率並落實分級醫療為應用高齡化帶來的醫療需求增加的挑戰本部將多館旗下協助解決病床調度落實分級轉整分流強化區域聯防車類"},{"start":2293.043,"end":2320.478,"text":"並調整健保支付標準落實分級醫療制度確保集中症醫療量能供給以解決醫院擁捨問題本部曾答應各委員支持教育監督在此靜置謝陳並期各位委員繼續予以支持 以上報告好 謝謝部長有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":2324.085,"end":2352.034,"text":"現在我們開始巡打做以下宣告本委員會委員8分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點半截止發言登記委員如有書面執行請於上會前提出欲取不受理暫定10點30分休息9點半休息10分鐘原則上11點半處理臨時提案現在我們請第一位登記委員陳昭之委員發言"},{"start":2360.219,"end":2361.9,"text":"謝謝主席有請邱部長委員長部長早安部長衛福部公布的這個雙倍醫學中心的護理師薪資統計被護理人員有引起很大的質疑他們說是跟現況是不符合那這個數據怎麼來的請教部長這個薪資你是怎麼來的得到的數字"},{"start":2387.703,"end":2417.083,"text":"是的我們這個從民國112年11月我們衛護部請那個各縣市衛生局邀請各轄內的各醫院醫療醫院醫院能夠上網去填寫他的薪資是就是說是醫院通報的醫院自己報出來醫院通報的而且當時的目的真的只是希望讓護理人員能夠知道各醫院的一個薪資的狀況求職比較方便請問你有制定格式標準或是說有勾擊制度嗎"},{"start":2419.143,"end":2442.667,"text":"我們的確是有一定有就是你讓他通報但是可能沒有做這樣的事情所以現在這個引起護理界的大反彈這個跟之前我向貴部這個要求那個看護病筆資料是結果就一樣就是由官方提供的護病筆資料因為當時他好像醫學中心就區醫院跟地區醫院是三塊然後三塊都是平均值那大概就這樣一個月數就時間的當這個另外一個座標"},{"start":2446.168,"end":2468.111,"text":"當時那個整個這個又毀滅華然說他們官方資料跟他們感受是不一樣那回到這個薪資因為已經有工作十幾年護理師告訴我說他都頂多落在一到五年這個區塊那部長所以就是說這個是長期通報但是並沒有一個標準的方式或是勾結的制度那其實薪資高低是一件事我覺得會"},{"start":2468.632,"end":2492.718,"text":"你公佈之後引起反彈那是另外一件事如果衛福部真的關心護理人員的這個待遇問題我覺得要用很小心不要用誤導的數字去處理而且要拿出具體的改善方案部長你還記得我們在第一個會期我們談健保法第62條我的第一個附帶決議就是說醫院有盈餘醫院有盈餘就是要用來改善尤其是護理師"},{"start":2494.058,"end":2503.827,"text":"這個工作環境跟這個薪資待遇這個是首先要做的那部長這一次就是社群平台看到你的數字他整個跳起來他說這個數字經不起反驗為什麼呢因為看起來不錯嘛所以這個媒體有一些他就會讓他們"},{"start":2511.314,"end":2540.576,"text":"看成是寫成說是這個質疑說這個好像作用高薪那這樣子這個讓他們會覺得受到一些委屈因為部長我要談的是一個平均薪資是非常危險的因為你一旦公佈的話會有很多後遺症為什麼因為台灣專科護理師產業工會指出這個因為衛福部公佈薪資的數據是平均月薪但是沒有區分說什麼叫基本的薪水那還有其他的這個津貼那這個津貼包括夜班"},{"start":2541.337,"end":2563.145,"text":"加班危險津貼還有額外的工作補助所以他們就說你們提供的資料剛好包含大量的加班費加班費跟津貼的數據其實正是代表了他們其實工作是超時的結果才能得到這樣的薪資就是也正坐實的說護理師是過勞的而且還有一點"},{"start":2564.125,"end":2586.42,"text":"部長你們把這個專科護理師跟一般護理師都混在一起了其實專科護理師是有他的一個專業價值跟他不同的承擔所以以後處理這些數字是要非常小心因為護理界他們最在意的說因為媒體把它報導出心智這麼優渥你們還在爭執或是重點是什麼呢這個會讓人家已經很寶貝的我們很珍惜的護理人員用這種獨到這個說法"},{"start":2594.185,"end":2610.36,"text":"他們會生氣他們會很不滿所以是不是這樣部長我就跟您討論一下我們要公佈這個護理人員薪資結構的時候是不是應該合理一下就基本薪資還有他 overtime他工作其他的種種因素這樣子加起來這樣就不會覺得是去掩蓋"},{"start":2611.761,"end":2622.264,"text":"就實施他們是超時工作的事實我再跟您舉個例子以前國發會發布那個國人的平均薪資都是從平均數你看那幾百萬勞工勞工大概將近千萬當時那幾百萬勞工他們看了很不開心他們覺得我怎麼距離那麼遙遠後來我有一位好朋友擔任國發會主委就陳美玲主委我就建議他說以後你不要公佈平均數你要公佈中位數"},{"start":2636.307,"end":2659.569,"text":"因為總是有一些超級收入的人把真的帶動影響了結果你知道嗎相差一萬元那你要知道對賺三四萬跟賺四五萬差一萬塊是差很大所以你要處理數字真的是要非常的小心所以你這次公佈是醫學中心然後你又把相對讓它呈現是高的數字其實還有一個後遺症部長"},{"start":2660.53,"end":2687.276,"text":"這樣很多護理師要去大醫院你這個公佈結果有後遺症也有不實的地方包委員第一個我們上網的有400多家所以表示說各個醫院幾乎都有第二個公佈了以後有些醫院發現我的薪資是比別人低所以紛紛提升所以其實是有正面的效果但是我絕對"},{"start":2688.949,"end":2709.319,"text":"我必須 我跟委員一樣我們都是長期在醫療第一線服務的我覺得我們完全了解到醫療團隊的辛苦特別是在護理人員所以他們的薪水如果待遇能夠一直提高是我們受的部長您接觸的都管理面嗎沒有啦 我也從陰診開始當期的陰診現在當時的護理人員都是幾十年的朋友"},{"start":2716.363,"end":2720.664,"text":"因為時間有限我拜託台灣的醫院協會理事長拜託你去查一下他們這樣是不是真實的至少我問過大概七八家但是真的這個數據出來"},{"start":2736.588,"end":2739.913,"text":"那讓大家說 我就沒那麼多人了我真的不好意思我們回到今天的急診的問題所以我想我們一定全力來再繼續改善物理的待遇"},{"start":2752.691,"end":2757.536,"text":"因為急診問題跟你口中你講出來過說改善中或趨緩中其實差很大那我就以臨近的臺大醫院我們兩個都服務過的醫院為例其實不時都有人就給我他們其實長期的那個急診病床流管床是整個湧到正門大廳那正門大廳有個舞臺"},{"start":2769.229,"end":2771.63,"text":"甚至會辦音樂會跟活動它可以同時辦這個數字我有請教過台大他們來跟我說一個副院長跟一個急診部副主任他們就跟我說這個就是我問他們護理師夠不夠他跟我說護理師是足夠的不過這個跟鋼灰跟我反應的不太一樣後來我又請教吳院長"},{"start":2790.299,"end":2804.186,"text":"無願而復無可奈何就是說這個就是常態啦病人就是要往我們這邊來因為神醫院嘛台灣人心腹中心醫院其實市長您上來我其實有把照片傳給你啊我知道你也沒有辦法暫時沒有辦法無力回天啦因為市長說這個就是一個常態啦那部長我在質詢的時候跟你說你跟我說拜他比較嚴重拜你會比較好"},{"start":2811.77,"end":2837.74,"text":"就是說大家都說我大驚小怪小題大作結果不到一年就爆炸了急診的問題就爆炸了所以很多人認為說急診的這個看診收費要可以有機會改善這個崩壞的醫療分級那我覺得再進一步區分今天好像報告是還沒辦法處理我知道處理錢的費用不會這麼快就可以處理我已經轉轉就到大醫院接著輕症病人提高收費因為韓國等等其他國家有這個做法"},{"start":2838.22,"end":2852.939,"text":"就反而你當時視察過後你寫的那個就醫執印那個沒法律效力啊那只是參考看看聽聽看啦好嗎那個跟委員報告我不是去視察這間醫院每一個都是好朋友所以沒有什麼好視察我是去跟他們"},{"start":2853.66,"end":2856.984,"text":"第43條我想石組長很清楚不經轉轉到地區醫院去醫院醫學中心就醫應該有30、40、50%的分攤這個部分請你就是我今天實業有限本來就一條法律在這裡你想辦法都不好才會一直惡化"},{"start":2873.104,"end":2882.386,"text":"那另外就是你鼓勵大家轉型用指引但只有一成人會接受我今天回家請你做個功課因為原來只有一成人他會接受這個醫護的建議就轉到相對輕症到比較小的醫院去看但是只有一成根據報就一成人會接受那請你告訴我今天你們想了一些辦法有指引然後有些鼓勵"},{"start":2892.509,"end":2901.372,"text":"那到底會進步多少就麻煩你這個幫我好沒問題 報告委員這個齁就麻煩我都等這個報告齁聰明就醫其實是國際的趨勢所以我們做無聯乃也一直在努力"},{"start":2908.834,"end":2928.424,"text":"江署長謝謝你今天你專程來謝謝你因為對於食藥署對藥品特別是口服定劑跟膠囊保存的方法跟期限怎麼說署長您知道嗎就是你們貴署是怎麼來說的請你看我這張投影片他就寫了一個說開封或調劑日算半年內要服用完畢"},{"start":2929.665,"end":2956.869,"text":"署長這個說法太簡化了應該要有更科學性的做法因為美國醫院要是有各種指引那我今天為什麼這樣講呢其實藥品那個效期也是你核定啊也是食藥署核定的啊藥品在他原包裝裡面只要按照他規定的儲存的條件比如溫度啊等等那他這個效期就是就是按照那個標示的效期啊那為什麼現在每一家醫院呢他買藥的時候購買藥的時候都要求提供"},{"start":2958.03,"end":2977.104,"text":"像衛福部醫院八個月以上的這個有效期間然後剩下兩個月的時候叫人家買回去買回去再換新的回來你又要賺取要價差又要占人家便宜但是這個源頭魚他們就拿這個資料來當作藉口署長怎麼辦這怎麼辦那藥廠是怎麼樣他要製造什麼樣藥品給大家用呢"},{"start":2982.657,"end":3001.578,"text":"謝謝委員的提問那我看到網站這部分裡面藥物食品安全週報我們特別稍微去了解一下那個利潤的基礎大概是這樣子那是應該是大包裝的不是那種一排一排已經標示安全期限那個很標準大包裝也是效期啊 還是有效的效期"},{"start":3003.86,"end":3010.524,"text":"無菌固體製劑開封因為已經打開來了打開來就破壞原來的一個狀況市長我要先給你修正一下如果打開以後會縮短的話都會寫這個要求都要寫就像我們知道眼藥一個月就不能用以前Nitroglycerin那個消息一年內不能用沒有規範的時候按照這個標準不然你核准的那個消息是假的參考用嗎這個被醫院拿來利用等一下我要請這個"},{"start":3030.894,"end":3033.097,"text":"我們參考的是打開來是USP795調製後的BUD為六個月的體驗所以這個已經是定季的我們打開覺得可能已經跟原來的有一點點"},{"start":3051.218,"end":3064.868,"text":"所以這個是這樣的想法第二部分是有些異變值的確像阿布敏我們大概4個小時啊這個部分麻煩我們用科學性然後處理我現在可以造成後遺症但是我請執行長上來執行長你們這個衛福部的聯標醫院這個麻煩你先留著就了解你們衛福聯標醫院那個也是這樣規範說要8個月以上的留有8個月以上的效期"},{"start":3073.735,"end":3090.046,"text":"那你這個第一個就是說我請教他們他第一個問題跟我說因為別的醫院也這樣做你們副執行長來我嚇一跳衛福部醫院竟然說別的醫院也這樣做別的醫院就是對的別的醫院這樣做你就要跟著這樣子做嗎然後他給我第二個理由說這個什麼連陽愚公"},{"start":3093.228,"end":3113.038,"text":"他要到這個遠洋去要領6個月所以我們校期要留很久遠洋移工根本就是政府欺負遠洋移工因為事實上他在那個環境那個環境又高濕又高熱然後那個環境根本他那個校期你就把丟給他去管理他根本還要更短才對你還跟他算到這個時候所以如果一個醫院3月買藥那5月有個遠洋移工來那你照你的規矩8個月你就不用了"},{"start":3116.96,"end":3122.973,"text":"那你還要不要把藥給這個遠洋漁工所以你就以偏概全你這個醫院的管理完全轉嫁到"},{"start":3124.019,"end":3128.441,"text":"藥廠身上 你要賣的時候要賣一個效期這麼長的等到差兩個月你就叫他買回去然後又說什麼偏鄉藥師人力不足盤點困難所以效期是八個月你把管理的責任這個結構性問題偏鄉也缺醫師啊你就不只是缺藥師那你整個都丟給那個藥廠去承擔還要吃藥 藥價差要再叫人家說效期還很久很久的藥然後等到效期靠近都還可以用你就叫人家買回去買回去換過來"},{"start":3152.271,"end":3179.564,"text":"那吃人狗狗欺負人太累了執行長我跟他們溝通他們不接受欸那署長你要講公道話藥食品的安定區是你在管的啊那第一個就是說跟委員說明實在有三項第一個就是說我們的藥品聯標是一個委員會是由各個醫院代表還有一些外部專家那特別是這個藥品聯標是所有的我們的偏鄉離島包含都會區的醫院再加上有一些衛生局衛生所所以裡面他有需求的管理問題你是一般全部都是這樣"},{"start":3179.804,"end":3193.67,"text":"那第二個就是說 剛剛提到其實在我們過去 您提到的8個月其實我們是不是有超過6個月其實在這個部分裡面只佔非常小的比例不到1%啦所以在這個部分裡面那你今天可不可以承諾6個月"},{"start":3195.412,"end":3210.051,"text":"兩千又六個月你這樣太為難人家了八個月一年的都有啊你太為難人家了而且你也知道吧兩個月靠近兩個月你管理不善放了那麼久兩個月內你就叫人家換回去叫人家買回去有這種情形的只佔百分之一這兩邊佔比較便宜啊"},{"start":3210.692,"end":3223.404,"text":"跟委員報告就只佔百分之一 不是很高的比例那可不可以回到六個月 執行長你一句話 因為我已經跟他們溝通過了他們沒有人敢做決定這個是經過我們那個聯標但是我就是跟你討論專業啊 我跟你討論專業跟管理啊醫院有關的 你不要把管理全部丟給他們啊你把它丟給別人嘛 反正我在證明嘛"},{"start":3231.992,"end":3236.194,"text":"你可以處理這個問題嗎 執行長你一句話我們再帶給聯標委員裡面 因為裡面還有一些外部的委員我已經跟他們溝通過了剩你一句話 執行長你一句話科學性是要那個就是說你要有一個科學性 會不會你那個藥品標識是假的嗎假的嗎我們會去評估剛剛您提到的這一塊 但是因為在要聯標的委員會裡面 他們也要拿去討論"},{"start":3260.044,"end":3275.516,"text":"我想委員是專家啦,你一定希望它運轉得很順利那藥廠的一個管理跟醫院也有管理,藥局的管理,這兩個怎麼樣取得一個平衡那得到一個應該的對人民最保障的部分我會請執行長待會兒去檢討好不好"},{"start":3281.601,"end":3304.085,"text":"好那江署長你這個科學性的部分要很清楚喔校期是你們標示你們同意的東西喔那你形同虛設 各位委員只要校期內的其實在使用上都沒有問題的那這個調製麻煩你除了這個reconstitution還是什麼調製跟調劑是不一樣喔你經過泡水都不一樣喔所以要科學性的不要一致性的好嗎那執行長可以嗎部長也從你要檢討為什麼一定要做這樣那你要帶頭做你要帶頭做嗎好謝謝"},{"start":3311.266,"end":3323.729,"text":"我們部立醫院永遠有帶頭的作用一定要 不要因為說別的醫院這樣做所以你就跟著這樣做他們給我第一個理由是這個好嗎 要帶頭非常謝謝委員好 謝謝謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長那繼續我們請林業勤委員質詢麻煩邱部長"},{"start":3340.964,"end":3341.104,"text":"邱部長請"},{"start":3350.914,"end":3375.789,"text":"今年2月22號我們臺灣急診醫學會就發出我們的政策聲明表示我們的急診用篩已達到前所未有的嚴重程度如果這問題持續的話大概會引發到我們的醫護人員大規模的離職甚至會進一步削弱我們醫療體系的承受能力所以急診室用篩有原因事實上是"},{"start":3377.591,"end":3397.563,"text":"醫療擁塞跟我們的病床擁塞不過這次事件大概是春節期間大概七天很多門診事實上是休診所以導致了我們的延伸到的醫療擁塞可是隨著假期結束之後照理來講應該是緩解可是到2月22號還不能紓解的應該事實上是病床擁塞"},{"start":3400.345,"end":3429.807,"text":"一直以來我們看到是過去本來就是這個就存在的一種現象也就是醫護人員招不滿的話就導致病床開不出來所以民眾平日的預約住院就要排隊個三五天那這一次的我們的普通病床跟ICU一路回堵到急診室問題才會這麼嚴重所以想問部長事件持續這麼長的時間那外界對衛福部處理的動作覺得太緩慢"},{"start":3430.598,"end":3431.501,"text":"你作何解釋其實"},{"start":3435.895,"end":3464.855,"text":"我們都有預防性的處理,譬如說在春節前其實不只公部門,我們也都有醫師公會已經連續七八年了都在急診前都要譬如說要大家打預防針,要大家就診的一個怎麼樣分流然後我們在不管是健保署或疾管署都有提供經費給急診去開譬如說專人病房一個門診另外有一個人力然後也鼓勵我們的急診診所能夠在"},{"start":3465.755,"end":3490.428,"text":"假日的時候能夠多開診 而且都給他多一點 譬如說三成的一個補助這個就是比較預防性的 然後也當時政府也多買了10萬劑的流感疫苗讓大家能夠希望避免得到相關的傳染病我想預防的措施是非常重要的那長期來講怎麼樣 我們國家本來就一直在做分級分流"},{"start":3491.908,"end":3513.698,"text":"區域聯防的體系這個一直在做面對急診的困境到年後還是這樣子的時候當然我們就必須要更積極所以從大概3月2號開始連續我們到現在也有至少5次的會議出席的人是包括各衛生局各醫院院長幾乎幾百個用線上的在討論怎麼來解決這個問題當然也包括急診醫學會"},{"start":3519.74,"end":3540.051,"text":"所以我們提出了三個緊急趕快處理的,持續再做兩個中長程的第一個你院內趕快調度,拜託院方能夠看看譬如說門診住院,哪一檔比較慢的就比較慢的,去進行梳洗我們有一個理念,急診你說到底要待多久"},{"start":3540.891,"end":3556.918,"text":"居德病能夠越快住院越好就是最重要的理念部長你剛剛提你們開了很多會可是2月3號年假就結束了可是衛福部到2月8號才邀集我們的疾管署和22個縣市衛生局跟14個轉診的網絡醫院主持人"},{"start":3559.264,"end":3567.626,"text":"跟六區的緊急醫療應變中心執行長來召開會議討論那這個時間點我們當然看到衛福部自己講說急診量從4.5萬人次就是降為2.1萬人次可是等待住院的人還是偏高所以2月22號我們的急診醫學會才會出來發表聲明那衛福部自己也承認說病床擁塞的問題還是很嚴重"},{"start":3586.551,"end":3596.858,"text":"今天春節期間在急診室最擁塞的時候民眾等待床位超過一天是常態急診擁塞事件當下衛福部有掌握嗎"},{"start":3598.129,"end":3625.539,"text":"就在春節期間我們每一天都每15分鐘那衛福部做了什麼樣的應變措施當然一定是努力去應變那你的應變措施到底是什麼應變措施我剛剛跟委員報告第一個就是說希望讓急診的後床的人能夠減少第二個希望當然還有等候看診結果等候看診的人都不是那麼長我們每天可以去追溯data大概"},{"start":3626.559,"end":3652.346,"text":"委員所講的超過1000個就是51家的一個醫院我們說統計51家大概如果平均有20個後床的大概就會超過1000個那基本上還是在那幾家啦我們第一名的永遠都是林和長庚台大啦 高一啦 高雄長庚其實看起來都比較常例前茅啦那這個部分我們當然很希望"},{"start":3654.566,"end":3680.851,"text":"這些醫院能夠去積極的去處理那剛剛講的三個緊急的處理第一個就是說院內去調配這個部分有些醫院做得還不錯當然有些婦女人覺得說會承受更多的壓力這個部分我們也瞭解但是就是院方一定要去好好的溝通平常也要訓練好第二個我們當然區域聯訪很重要所以我們這個時候26家醫院也跟五個訓練也站出來"},{"start":3681.651,"end":3704.011,"text":"呈上啟下不管是上面的那這個部分也吸收了不少那另外就是說我們要鼓勵給民眾提供分流分級的一個就醫的一個資訊這是緊急趕快處理啦因為醫院遵守那麼多遵守醫師公會也發表過幾度的聲明所以我們希望就是說如果只有"},{"start":3704.571,"end":3721.284,"text":"一般的感冒症狀可以先到診所來那如果這樣才不會影響到急診的一個量能所以部長上年假期間就春節年假期間就已經知道我們的就醫人數因為流感而增加了所以按理來講要放假了"},{"start":3722.37,"end":3749.231,"text":"前面有沒有預期就是在這個假期期間本來這個醫療的那個需求就是比較大的如果事前緊急我們的疫苗採購鼓勵施打並鼓勵過年期間減少休整的數量是不是就會比較不嚴重所以想問說你過年前有沒有看到這樣子預料到這些問題會發生因為已經前面就已經開始過年前已經有人開始事實上"},{"start":3749.611,"end":3777.181,"text":"感冒然後就醫的比例上也比較高一點所以會不會做了什麼在事前準備這一塊好謝謝我剛剛有跟委員報告我們在事前就是有發表記者會宣稱說那個大概要打疫苗過年的時候要洗手戴口罩到處都是這個都是常規大概這十年來每一次都有的對常規可是有沒有更加強去做宣導公司部門那當然我們疫情如果"},{"start":3777.981,"end":3806.3,"text":"如果說有可能會尤其是這次會有免疫負債的現象我們COVID下來以後可能我們很擔心所以我們這次的確有加強包括成立傳染病在急診成立傳染病的門診包括我們鼓勵所有的院所如果你開診假日開診增加30%等等這都是屬於預防性的措施那但是我們的民眾還是會比較直接到大醫院來那其實有些是不是可以考慮"},{"start":3808.601,"end":3834.961,"text":"給民眾說其實我們診所都是非常優秀的說實在的我們在急診看的醫師全部都是在開業的醫師的學生所以我會鼓勵說大家還是有不舒服其實不是說鼓勵了應該就應該大家都有一個家庭醫師的一個制度他就去問他的家庭醫師我們在COVID的時候疫情台北市"},{"start":3836.062,"end":3862.152,"text":"一天有曾經一萬個infected的可是他可以在家裡為什麼因為他都有熟悉的醫師用視訊來看他來穩定他所以我們度過了大流行的一個難關剛剛講的事實上是我們的醫療用塞可是現在我們還在看病床的所以急診室在調度病床主要是透過我們為服務部建置的"},{"start":3862.881,"end":3891.419,"text":"重度級的急診急救責任醫院的急診及時訊息查詢跟14急診轉診的網絡跟六區緊急的醫療應變中心可是但是即時系統沒有辦法隨時更新所以注意不大那急診轉診網絡應變中心針對的特殊疾病並不一定有效最終最後呢就變成事實上是醫學中心自己自行相互聯絡"},{"start":3892.979,"end":3917.008,"text":"來致力救濟所以也想問一下副長順利轉院便可避免擁塞那只要醫院缺床缺ICU那特殊疾病的醫治的病床就有轉院的需求的時候這個問題一直沒有解決也沒有一直沒有提出來討論所以衛福部到底有什麼樣的對策"},{"start":3918.248,"end":3934.202,"text":"我們在中,謝謝委員對醫療狀況相當的了解,那我們除了預防急性以外,當然改善護理人力的一個工作環境,跟怎麼樣留任護理人力是我們國家重要政策,我們有十二項的措施"},{"start":3934.96,"end":3964.746,"text":"那提供 政府也提供經費那當然這製作站設置我們也非常樂意跟護理的團體來陸續因為護理團體有幾個護理團體我們都可以非常歡迎大家一起來討論總是把它改善到這個措施是真的能夠改善護理的待遇跟人力所以希望部長也要動作快好否則我覺得接下來還是一樣會面對同樣的問題對 我們這個部分一定加強努力好那上下轉診做得好的話就可以紓解"},{"start":3966.031,"end":3991.416,"text":"醫院的負擔可是台灣缺乏我們的醫院的守門員的一個角色民眾可以自由選擇就醫的醫院所以就一直導致民眾常常不分輕重的習慣就到醫學中心去了或區域醫院看病也往往造成我們的醫院擁塞衛福部向下轉診的分級醫院一直都沒有做好所以請問一下部長這一次我們的急診擁塞事件急診醫院似乎"},{"start":3992.196,"end":4008.119,"text":"沒有被納入在轉診的體系裡面 尤其是分級醫療的架構裡面 輕症本來就是基層的醫療的範疇所以衛福部對這個有沒有改善的措施?我們非常重視各層級的角色"},{"start":4009.212,"end":4024.663,"text":"區醫院的區醫院他的重要的分流角色第七院更是有燈塔型的味道而且他可以協助基層醫療很多的不管是住院或者是急診的部分所以我們在第七院方面不管是在幾乎在怎麼樣都會跟第七院的"},{"start":4025.393,"end":4039.276,"text":"的一個協會做最好的一個處理我想這個陸續都溝通的相當的好重點是在基層醫療其實是有我們台灣的基層醫療是世界有名也強大的所以如何讓民眾也能夠"},{"start":4041.018,"end":4068.655,"text":"第一線就先使用基層藥你就有一個醫生的好朋友引後發燒引後肚子不舒服你如果有一個在就近的醫療院所仍然能夠幫你解決問題我相信他有必要的話轉診的也會比較快不然你叫一個白人跟你便宜也不太適合因為要掛對科我肚子有點不舒服到底是要掛心臟科不肚子科如果有一個先面有一個鎖門眼幫你鎖住"},{"start":4069.875,"end":4090.563,"text":"這個才是世界所說的聰明就醫啦謝謝委員的提醒我們每一個級每一個層級都有它重要的角色我們都會去發揮所以最後希望廉價你的準備應該要確實所以未來避免有廉價的期間造成急診的擁塞還有醫院轉診這個問題要及時要因應整個的緊急狀況"},{"start":4094.994,"end":4106.72,"text":"那分級醫院還是期待趕快讓民眾瞭解然後這個可以到他適合的去就診那在病床量能要提升來強化人力"},{"start":4107.216,"end":4129.788,"text":"床位監控還有預防擁塞所以委員您的指教就是我過去幾十年來從醫學院從醫師公會理事長從當立委到現在所希望幫國家做的事情我們一定有堅定的意志一定要去把它徹底解決這個問題希望大家一起來所以今天的質詢"},{"start":4132.75,"end":4152.842,"text":"今天我那四個主張在兩週內請馬反法這個訴求能夠提出書面報告好沒問題然後還是要跟主席抗議一下因為前面是可以講到20分鐘以上謝謝他超過4分鐘你也超過4分鐘謝謝林委員謝謝部長那接續我們請陳慶威委員質詢"},{"start":4164.902,"end":4165.083,"text":"謝謝請邱部長"},{"start":4171.187,"end":4198.915,"text":"委員好部長好我們放第一張表第一張表是其實也是您親自傳給我的啦那當然我跟陳昭志委員也問的東西有點不太一樣我是很想知道說您會覺得這個表的統計方式是不是有欠改善因為有護理師跟我反映說這個年資一年啊到底是在這個醫院上班一年還是他當的護理師一年"},{"start":4200.168,"end":4221.983,"text":"的年資因為他們認為如果你真的有問到這樣子的數據也許他之前已經職業非常久了那他可能在目前你調查這家醫院一年所以才會到達這樣子的一般民眾覺得這樣是有感的高薪啊我想知道您對於這個統計方法有沒有什麼看法比如說你的樣本數是怎麼取的"},{"start":4222.935,"end":4251.31,"text":"好 包委員我昨天在看一下我傳給您的這個line是傳到這個但是其實我們好像沒有傳到一個網站那個網站是在民國122年11月的時候衛福部請各縣市衛生局邀請全國的醫院去把他的收入因為那是要展示給外國人我跟你一樣我們都覺得護理人員非常辛苦他的薪水如果能夠再提升"},{"start":4252.15,"end":4267.581,"text":"再提升再提升如果說今天真的是他們很滿意了我想也不會有人才流失的問題嘛大家會離開職場表示不夠嘛表示我們必須要大家再努力嘛我想這個部分是基本觀念所以我從來沒有講過一或乎"},{"start":4270.679,"end":4291.745,"text":"現在的待遇是OK的所以您未來我想主席在這也知道我們都一直在努力幫醫療醫護的一個職場做得更好那其實裡面的報告112年以後那400多家包括醫學中心區醫院應該也有地區醫院有地區醫院其實那個大家正面思考"},{"start":4292.385,"end":4317.042,"text":"他的呈現是讓我們的護理人員能夠我要去台大申請比較好或是要買這個我看到買這個情緒比較高福利比較好我就去另外現在那個後來以前大家不注意這個網站現在注意這個網站以後發現中部有很多醫院就說我好像比人家低所以他們就會提升所以是有見錢思齊的效果那如果說造成大家有些"},{"start":4317.802,"end":4330.411,"text":"比較可能沒有領到那麼多收入建銜時期這個我好像我們必須要在公衛裡面是沒有覺得有領到這個錢的為什麼我們會質疑是因為你放這張表但是晚上在這些機關裡面上班的人並沒有人說他們有拿到這樣子的薪資所以他們才會另外在他們的這個官方的粉專做一些發文"},{"start":4347.543,"end":4362.774,"text":"所以我想用健嫻私企這個好像有點難怪的比如說我們看這一張好了啦如果他是在私立醫院的最小值是42336而且這個值應該是總收入嘛包括就是說你去報課交評單的時候你年度課交評單的時候"},{"start":4366.69,"end":4387.55,"text":"像我以前在台大當第五連署製衣師的時候我的基本薪是六萬多可是我有專業加給五萬多然後再加上績效獎金大概十八萬好了我出去外面我報稅是報十八萬我不是報六萬多所以不好意思那是一種看你是總收入"},{"start":4388.371,"end":4407.69,"text":"還是看年資的 還是看那個薪資 基本薪資的一個概念那如果讓大家一起誤解 我在這邊還是要道歉因為這個data本來我們就好意讓醫院自己去填那我有問過所有醫院的院長我昨天也要求醫院協會的李輝鵬理事長我問拜託你聽他查看"},{"start":4413.834,"end":4427.24,"text":"所以部長您願意跟辛苦的護理師說真的很不好意思這個表格可能沒有如果大家的薪水還是低我覺得我很難過也願意來努力"},{"start":4431.799,"end":4459.135,"text":"那數據的呈現讓大家產生誤解這個我當然可以跟大家抱歉但是你放心不管是在你在任何一個職位不管你在醫護包括診所我們現在診所診所很多醫生說他四萬幾塊他也請不上來現在我們前幾天其實洪孟海委員也有質詢這個議題但是你始終沒有正面回答所以我稍微播放一下那一天你們的對談"},{"start":4464.804,"end":4466.245,"text":"有聲音嗎當天呢我看一下字幕卓院長是跟您講說平均看下來的話他覺得應該要很說明的清楚並且不是用這樣子的數字還有社會做一個假象的宣示所以卓院長表示這是一個假象的宣示那當天我有聽您的答詢"},{"start":4492.265,"end":4509.823,"text":"您說其實你有多方的跟醫院管理端討論過所以這個數據是千真萬確也並不是醫院管理端要欺騙你的或是什麼對 但是你有沒有想過從剛剛這張表的統計方式比如說你的抽樣的樣本到底公不公允"},{"start":4510.444,"end":4525.714,"text":"另外你有沒有跟這個基層的勞方代表來討論過然後你有沒有在多方查證您認為這個會不會是你未來還要再做這些統計的改善方法呢好一定我想第一個我們一定非常歡迎"},{"start":4527.715,"end":4541.494,"text":"相關的醫事團體如果您覺得在衛務部可以幫大家做什麼事情都可以排時間我們來好好的來討論一下我們歡迎尤其是婦女的同仁婦女有好幾個團體意見有稍微有一點不一樣但是我們絕對都願意第二個這個數據的算法"},{"start":4545.499,"end":4571.198,"text":"是從112年那個時候就用這種算法用總收入的一個概念在算如果引起大家的誤解我馬上要趙復師再去重新的請各醫院寫清楚就比如說您剛講的把這些津貼再分開不用給我們一個加總的數字就是給我們一個大概的數字但是有可能加到其他的津貼我未來是這樣建議啦不知道您採不採納"},{"start":4575.066,"end":4591.178,"text":"我們希望我們希望朝著這個我們會請不是邀請我們我們是要拜託醫院一定要去呈現呈現那個真實的數據因為只有公開透明才是解決問題的最基本的一個"},{"start":4591.598,"end":4615.4,"text":"那也希望您多方查證這邊當然也是幫護理師請願因為非常多人傳來他們真實的薪水單等等另外他們也在網路上寫了很多他們在護理工作上比如說被家屬質疑態度被病人呼來喚去等等等等但是最近也有一批另外的網軍說喊話的這些醫護人員其實是敵國的網軍可不可以幫他們講幾句話"},{"start":4617.242,"end":4630.941,"text":"您知道現在的離職率是真的很高有院長說他是來不及簽離職單前幾天也有一位護理師說他在排隊簽離職單的時候等了一個小時我想問您會不會真的覺得現在這個離職潮是應該要解決的問題了"},{"start":4635.517,"end":4655.639,"text":"我們要用科學的根據來看至於每一個離職的頭人我們都很心痛包括我以前在病房我們一起訓練的一個台大護理系很優秀的學生想說這個將來我們一定是在護理界花光花熱可是他工作了半年以後畢業以後工作半年竟然要離職"},{"start":4657.148,"end":4679.498,"text":"我們是會非常心痛所以任何一個離職我們都非常重視不是整批那至於說要等一個小時我們也去問台北市護理師公會他說那一天3月3號剛好是最最多人的時候因為有些要直登有些要入離職有些要所以那個部分我們去我們可以來分析我們也問過台中市長其實"},{"start":4681.039,"end":4698.87,"text":"都可能剛好有一坡比較起來因為每個時段不太一樣尤其在過年後會有離職坡可是在七八月又會有入來那去年的時候越到比一年以前我們增加的大概有留任的護理人員大概增加有3800個左右那其中有1200個是在醫院所以我們會繼續努力啦絕對這樣不夠"},{"start":4703.874,"end":4712.665,"text":"我們會繼續努力那你有想要這個去年年初就已經前一任行政長都答應的白板津貼今年應該就是可以發出來了吧"},{"start":4713.393,"end":4732.983,"text":"我們現在跟護理界的一個長期的討論是說我們在那個三班護病比的獎勵你一定要去顧及到要給白班現在先這樣做所以白班等於其實是會領到三班當然這個因為公務預算也希望"},{"start":4733.843,"end":4761.201,"text":"那個在預算的順利的通過啦三班互併筆的入法是賴總統的政見您會把這件事情也當成您在任以內的一件當務之急嗎我們當然是很這個當然是重要的任務而這個任務我們必須瞭解護理的心聲當然我們也會跟相關譬如說醫院的院方大家來談一下怎麼樣在一種"},{"start":4762.634,"end":4780.356,"text":"所謂的無痛學習我們學習到無痛學習嘛那這個就是說能夠維繫病床的一個情況之下我常常在講我們醫療改革有三個第一個要提供給民眾最高的醫療品質第二個要給醫事人員最好的尊嚴第三個也要給醫療人員可以亂嘛"},{"start":4781.918,"end":4802.485,"text":"可以順利的應轉我會再跟部長您追進度部長這個有許許多的官員在外面致詞甚至是賴總統呢在2月4號的世界癌症日上是直接說癌症篩檢行政費用刪了一成凍結三成請問您這件事情到底是不是事實嗯"},{"start":4813.993,"end":4837.881,"text":"癌症這個部分當然是國健署國健署只要是凍結業務會其實對於推動各種因為我們那個衛福部七成是委辦經過到底是不是一成跟三成這件事情到底是不是事實統三一成 凍三成這樣子所以還是會有影響的看起來是會有影響"},{"start":4839.52,"end":4863.006,"text":"我弄下一張給你看這個是你們新增了41億的癌症篩檢預算喔重要的科子目包含業務費獎勵助費是不是到現在其實你們也還沒有確定這筆新的大預算還沒有核實分配是不是最主要這一次來講在鄧山的部分就是在5.93億的那個部分"},{"start":4866.863,"end":4881.674,"text":"所以不是一層跟三層嗎就是5.93%裡面的一層跟三層如果是整體的那一層跟三層影響就可能小一點所以不是癌症篩檢我們講的是AEU會的推動所以不是癌症篩檢嗎"},{"start":4883.371,"end":4885.292,"text":"所以兩位其實現在就是說2月4號賴總統講的那句話不屬實嘛因為2月5號我發了這個公文我也是詢問說到底是不是這樣子結果你們回的是說"},{"start":4904.244,"end":4921.075,"text":"因為未獲得具體的結論故總預算稅出稅入三減凍結金額與立法院朝野協商達成共識後即可具體核算這是你們給我的公文耶但是你們怎麼可以在外面說這樣子的說法呢好我想我們在邊各個司署在邊內預算除了業務會當然還有實質上的付給付給那個"},{"start":4934.527,"end":4949.88,"text":"這是連在一起的啦 只要算那個當然就會影響到我是希望啦 來部長這張你前幾天也看過了我們衛生福利部已經增加了3000億的預算國民健康署已經增加了"},{"start":4952.803,"end":4968.524,"text":"55億的預算如果你們繼續在外面講根本還沒有算出來的比例我覺得真的是有失公允我希望各位官員包括但可能我沒辦法勸告總統但是我真的希望各位官員出去說話的時候還是要有所本啊"},{"start":4969.125,"end":4972.55,"text":"這個是我看我們第一輪我們只有減列15萬第二輪我們還讓你我們還提案讓你可以科目自行調整所以當你多拿了3000億多拿了55億然後你一直說這個做不到那個做不到我覺得情何以堪"},{"start":4987.372,"end":5004.737,"text":"部長我們其實去年3月在這邊排了解凍案我回去算了一下我們總共排了22個解凍案您只要好好的報告其實我們這22個解凍案也都排也都解凍了你們去年3月提出4月就已經解凍了如果你們今年還要復議然後還會因為這樣子去延宕的話又把"},{"start":5008.499,"end":5023.18,"text":"這個解凍沒有癱瘓國政又到處出去宣講我覺得這樣真的是很不對的思維我覺得委員會因為我們大家都是未完長久的比較了解到人民健康需要的資源所以大家真的很感謝在委員會裡面"},{"start":5024.381,"end":5041.68,"text":"大家可以注意到慢慢可是在桶山桶洞這個部分大概就會比較真的會影響到業務相當的執行譬如說你少了你說好幾月以後才解凍可是我現在就要去買疫苗啦就要去跟人家簽約現在所有的人都知道我"},{"start":5042.541,"end":5059.905,"text":"只好不敢不曉得當然你說3月1日其實如果你不要提復一案這個洞前不就有就現在就要排了嗎這非常是一個未知是對我們計畫到底要合出去合不合出去以及在那邊期待建設的的確是真的部長我最後真的啦具體建議啦"},{"start":5062.346,"end":5075.706,"text":"如果你們真的沒有核算出核實的金額或者是比例的話也很希望你們出去在做一些演講公開的說明的時候真的可以說保守一點說實話我還是拜託我們委員能夠盡量讓我們因為"},{"start":5079.01,"end":5089.517,"text":"國健署他增加的預算其實就是我們已經多年來在前面在癌症篩檢其實你看我剛剛講第一輪我們減劣15萬你編了111億我們減劣15萬其實各朝野的委員是非常支持你們的看得出來啊對吧111億我們減劣15萬"},{"start":5101.888,"end":5126.261,"text":"對,我想在委員會裡面,我想值得大家給人民的健康很大的支持,這個真的非常感謝但是在桶山桶洞這個部分,仍然已經造成了現在的在業務上需要比較再要努力去調整我知道,其實大家也有在聽前幾天的質詢多了三千億、多了五十五億還是知愛難行,這個大家都聽懂了好,謝謝委員謝謝陳委員,謝謝部長"},{"start":5131.621,"end":5132.902,"text":"接下來我們請王一鳴委員質詢好 謝謝主席 我們有請部長委員好"},{"start":5155.931,"end":5167.843,"text":"最近這個護理師的離職潮在Yahoo的線上民調有高達七成八的民眾他擔心的是醫療會崩潰請問你會不會擔心我們護理師一再的出走我們的醫療體系會崩潰你擔心嗎"},{"start":5177.129,"end":5200.805,"text":"我當然擔心我們從大概20年前日本就寫出一個醫療崩潰的一個書以後我們台灣就一直在檢討我當時當然是擔任台大醫學的老師也是醫師我們當然希望醫療不要崩潰所以我們也跟不管是在民間跟政府其實一直攜手在解決這個問題"},{"start":5202.466,"end":5228.256,"text":"但是現在你看到的客觀的數據我們來看這幾年公司立護理人員的離職率他呈現出來的都是一個上升的情況平均離職率是12.61那這個空缺率因為離職率高空缺率就是當然也是隨著上升但是剛剛你們在回答委員問題的時候好像是說有改善"},{"start":5229.917,"end":5234.883,"text":"講說今年這個護理人員有新增進來所以這個情況有改善是嗎"},{"start":5236.721,"end":5260.485,"text":"包委員那因為有鑒於這樣一個趨勢所以在大概一年多前政府就提出了十二項改善計畫由四個面向包括人才的培育怎麼樣提高薪資等等的當然包括獎勵業但是有沒有成效我要問的是說我跟委員報告去年的就是去年的十二月"},{"start":5261.025,"end":5278.167,"text":"比前期的時候 護理人員多了大概3800多個其中有1200多個是在醫院裡面所以我們在這樣的一個狂流當中一直在力挽狂瀾我知道 但是我要你"},{"start":5278.667,"end":5292.367,"text":"回覆本席就是說那目前的離職率我這邊統計到是112年度嘛那根據你剛剛的說法如果最新的數據你們這個最新的說法你的離職率是多少你的那個空缺率是多少好來市長請說"},{"start":5295.231,"end":5317.796,"text":"好 這個離子率跟空缺率是我們每年跟醫院做調查的所以今年我們會調查去年的所以現在最新的就是112年的 因為是去年的嘛那我們今年就會起動調查去年的因為所有離子率跟空缺率是醫院這邊提出的所以你剛剛講那個數據也不能證明你的離子率跟空缺率有改善"},{"start":5318.856,"end":5332.845,"text":"那剛才部長講的意思是這樣就是因為這是疫情後特別在護理人員留任遇到很大的困境那也因為疫情後的這個那走的有多少因為特別是這一波裡面我們總量是增加的每年總量一定會增加但是原來就不夠對原來就不夠那所以不夠現在醫院的狀態就是一個復循環因為人不夠他又會走是對所以這12項進來之後"},{"start":5345.773,"end":5371.188,"text":"在穩定 那我們現在就是要穩定為主嗎你現在有穩定嗎 我要問的是你現在現場的情況有穩定嗎 因為這一波這個急診篩報之後你們這個很多民眾可能有很多的抱怨 你們緊急又再提出一些的對策但是到上個禮拜就是立法院這邊有在工作的同仁 他到了那個台大醫院 半夜的時候就是"},{"start":5371.963,"end":5392.043,"text":"就是有朋友不舒服看急診到現場看的狀況是只有兩個護理師但是有40個病患你一般的互併比就是醫學中心大業班的互併比是多少我們現在的這個在監測的這個指標是這樣護理人員他的移動他"},{"start":5392.915,"end":5413.747,"text":"又有所謂直燈所以我們在線上是看得到直燈的那我們每個月會做一次統計那每個月會跟上個月比也每個月會跟同期的每個月比那剛才我們講說有這個增加的部分是去年的12月跟去年的1月以及今年的2月跟去年的2月這樣來比全國來講如果最新的啦剛才部長是講"},{"start":5418.69,"end":5438.871,"text":"去年的12月跟1月比那我現在再提供一個新的就是說今年的2月跟去年的2月比那總共是3500個人那醫院大概是1400好1400增加這樣但是這樣夠不夠是不夠的因為過去三幫互併比的目的就是要讓醫院增加人那人的目標如果要達到這個三幫互併比是要7500到8000人"},{"start":5441.454,"end":5449.521,"text":"所以差很多所以才要需要12項政策來支持他差很多耶現在距離那個目標還非常的遙遠因為是去年3月開始執行的去年3月所以現在在醫院有增加了大概1400那我們看的指標是這樣一個是人體的增加嘛那第二個就是三班戶並比"},{"start":5459.689,"end":5464.631,"text":"各班的達成的狀況以及整體達成的狀況我就讓你看一個數據一樣是113年你可以看到醫學中心他的那個互併比就是他沒有達到的比例112年是14家佔56結果113年12月又變16家變成59所以如果如司長你說的其實是"},{"start":5486.577,"end":5505.612,"text":"再朝穩住跟改善的話為什麼醫學中心這個數據看起來在大夜班的這個部分是惡化的小夜班也沒有好到哪裡去就是說他未打的比例其實還是一樣是高而我剛剛提供的最新的數據就是上個禮拜有人到這個醫學中心去看到現場"},{"start":5506.573,"end":5522.984,"text":"他的大夜班的比如果是兩個護士40個病人就是1比20一樣是沒有達標所以我要講的是事實上現場的情況真的是狀況是很不好了我是很擔心喔就是說如果我們這個狀況沒有穩住的話一再的離開出走"},{"start":5526.887,"end":5552.264,"text":"真的台灣我們就是最驕傲的全民健保以後你要去醫院看就會像這一次突然湧入大量病人的時候急診病患一多的時候那個現場看起來像個災難片那麼多人都在這個走廊上面但是沒有足夠的醫護沒有辦法就是消化不了沒有護理人員你病床又沒有辦法開這個真的是一個很大的惡性循環所以我覺得這個問題真的是要"},{"start":5554.985,"end":5577.136,"text":"從根本就是好好的去解決那當然這個牽涉到一個剛剛大家提到的薪資的問題這次你們公布的這個薪資就是也讓這個護理界跳腳就是說怎麼能公布的比他領到的薪水單的還要高那這邊勞動部他之前就有根據職業別他已經統計過了112年護理人員每個月經常性薪資"},{"start":5581.958,"end":5606.25,"text":"是49202那為什麼勞動部統計出來的跟你們公布出來的就是有落差啊人家就說你們灌水啊你們為了讓數字好看啊就是大家拼命報就是把所有的其他的履歷口口通通都加起來但那不是經常性薪資啊我們講一個人的薪水應該是以經常性薪資為基準吧你們把很多非經常性的全部通通都要灌進來"},{"start":5607.19,"end":5635.224,"text":"那難怪這個他們跳腳啊因為你非經常性的薪資請問像有一些護理人員他是投這個可能還是是他不見得是有公務人員他可能是勞保對不對請問他會算在他的退休金裡面嗎不會啊有些是不會算進來那你那些硬要這樣把他灌進來當然他跳腳啊我就問部長你認為護理人員合理的月薪是多少錢你認為"},{"start":5636.96,"end":5652.237,"text":"未滿一年的護理人員你認為他的那個月薪你認為給多少合理我覺得只要在醫院能夠接能下去的話越高越好講一個最基本的要達到多少嗎是不是你們自己公布的5370我真的對"},{"start":5654.711,"end":5679.005,"text":"我這20年來永遠只是想的是醫護醫事人員怎麼一直去提升到底要提升到多少總是有一個平衡點那我就問你勞動部公布的每月經常性薪資49202這個數字你滿意嗎你覺得如果他平均是這樣子領到的是這一個如果以現在護理人員現場的情況護理人員平均每月經常性所值49202"},{"start":5681.817,"end":5696.786,"text":"202這是勞動部公布的,你覺得這個數字滿意嗎?要不要再往上加?就有包括一般會嗎?經常信你滿意嗎?包括哪些啦?就是說薪資,還有沒有包括獎勵金?有沒有包括那個臨終獎金?有沒有包括臨終獎金?"},{"start":5701.471,"end":5722.151,"text":"我覺得如果這樣子 包括年終獎金 這樣是太低了太低嘛 如果你是可以加薪的 你要幫他加多少薪加一萬塊好不好那應該要問主席吧護理師公會的理事長他已經公開講 他認為再加一萬塊的津貼"},{"start":5727.294,"end":5740.099,"text":"這個才是他認為比較是合理的因為現在平均下來就是4萬多了他認為再加1萬是合理的這個部分你們有沒有去研究過他們的訴求你們應該都清楚啊這個是解決根本的問題但是你們要不要去回應就是說如果我們要標榜健康台灣賴總統很喜歡講健康台灣沒有健康的醫護拿來健康台灣"},{"start":5750.623,"end":5764.461,"text":"那最根本的問題如果幫他加薪你做不到他還是一再出走啊你的人還是一再流失啊我覺得這個問題才是你們應該是治本要好好去看待的應該好好去研議吧這跟他們的訴求提出這麼久了"},{"start":5765.803,"end":5785.824,"text":"但是你們好像一直都不肯證明這個的確是在他們一兩年前就有一直提出這個事情因為高體市長這個跟我幾乎是情同兄妹所以我們非常的瞭解你現在當部長了你有權利啦那到底用什麼方式來增加譬如說"},{"start":5786.445,"end":5803.993,"text":"你們有健康台灣委員會嘛時候向的一個策略是不是就能夠整體性來改善好不好那至於要怎麼加薪我覺得待意努力來提高這就是我誠懇的話那怎麼樣來提高你把它列為健康台灣裡面該討論的議題好好討論那的確是 直接是重點那最後我問一個因為你現在人力不足你說你們要讓外籍看護工來擔任中階護佐"},{"start":5816.338,"end":5838.492,"text":"這一個政策是要上路了嗎?預備什麼時候上路?這個請市長先說明這是一個已經成熟的計畫還是只是在試試看風向我們有事辦了兩年半的這個叫做醫院的住院整合照護計畫那就有護理師跟一個護佐"},{"start":5840.549,"end":5846.697,"text":"一起成為一個team來提高這個照顧效率是那這個這個戶左目前都是本級的我們九成都本級只有10%是新住民目前大概2000多位是這樣那未來因為這個"},{"start":5856.391,"end":5860.272,"text":"不只是這個他也可以減輕民眾的負擔就是住院照顧到卡丘民眾的這個負擔會減一半那同時也是讓整個醫院照顧的效率大大提高那這個大家很希望能夠擴大"},{"start":5873.217,"end":5887.51,"text":"目前因為受限於經費的關係只有5.6億有111家在試辦而已5000多床在試辦那未來大家很希望說能夠擴大到一般的急性病房那就會有人力來源人力來源的這個需求所以我們目前對這個人力不斷在盤點"},{"start":5893.835,"end":5897.118,"text":"他可能性的來源有哪些那其中有一項是國發會跟勞動部他們有一個外籍看護工已經在台灣六年了他本來就在台灣六年了那他有一個流用就是長期流用的一個"},{"start":5911.499,"end":5940.1,"text":"如果雇主推薦他們就可以繼續在台灣來工作所以這個人力也是我們所以你們要往資深的這個外籍看護工來找人嗎但是這個部分會不會衝擊到現在的就是說這一些資深的外籍看護工同時他可能也是很多家裡面他有中症在照顧的這一群人會不會產生這個移轉的效果我覺得這個部分因為時間的關係我希望這一個家庭他已經不需要用了他才推薦他出來"},{"start":5941.817,"end":5967.938,"text":"對 所以因為現在已經有這個民間團體他們擔心這一點所以我希望你可以跟他們好好的溝通會不會產生這樣一個排擠的效應就是私人雇主協會他們已經有提出來公衛提出來的時候其實我們第一個時間就跟他溝通我希望你們要好好的溝通好不好就是溝通完整之後這樣的政策你們要施行才不會遭受到一些批評或者是造成一些負面的影響"},{"start":5969.038,"end":5986.806,"text":"有關於這個部分我們會溝通,那我再重申一下,另外有在傳說我們會重進外籍人力,那個完全不一樣的事情而且那個沒有要做,這本來就已經在台灣,而且這已經談了一兩年,談了六年了"},{"start":5988.423,"end":6014.501,"text":"她已經是六年的在台灣已經工作六年的資深的移工那真的是希望讓那個住院整合性照護多人力啦那如果說大家擔心會去擠壓擠壓這麼人力這個我們都會來溝通對你們一定要好好溝通好不好好謝謝委員的指教好謝謝部長好謝謝王委員那接著我們請邱政軍委員執行我們在圖前舉委員執行完畢後休息十分鐘"},{"start":6020.765,"end":6050.137,"text":"好,我們有請我們的邱部長委員好部長好我想請問一下,我們部裡面有一個次長叫側翼次長,你知道是誰嗎?次長?我們衛福部有三位次長都是你現在有帶手機嗎?我們幫他查一下手機收一下就知道了"},{"start":6051.951,"end":6078.227,"text":"是,現在我專心聆聽委員的指教不敢動用手機我跟你講,就是我們林靜儀次長那他今天沒來是怎麼樣?我聽說昨天召委有邀請他來嗎?對不起,因為時間有點緊,所以他今天有很多的行程各位都知道部長在這裡真的都要靠三位次長"},{"start":6079.608,"end":6100.589,"text":"你也知道衛福部的業務太多了,有的社福那邊也要去所以是部長允許他不來就對了那我有跟趙偉親自請假,感謝趙偉那我知道他去年到現在有總共三次了去年點滴事件,點滴的事件他跟醫護對嗆"},{"start":6102.49,"end":6129.21,"text":"這個某些人站著說話不腰疼你要的2000CC廠商沒在做改給你500CC堅持這樣說堅持這樣沒貨那最終的結果又是就是沒有嘛就是缺嘛那種預算他當過立法委員還配合我們民進黨在做這個造謠帶風向更扯的是連數字都不看凍結預算"},{"start":6131.172,"end":6158.98,"text":"不在乎什麼任性國家醫療部長你也當過立法委員,你認為他講的這個對嗎?我想林次長也有針對他講的話有些不得體他都有深切檢討有嗎?像上一次他上一次他不是槍中醫生嗎?我們行政院長也有特別要求要緊人慎刑他已經三次了,你們還繼續想保他?"},{"start":6162.029,"end":6183.22,"text":"我們留下他的,我們是沒有人才了是嗎?衛福部沒有人了嗎?我們國家的人才很多啊對啊,那為什麼出了那麼多狀況,我們部裡面都沒有反應?還是你動不了他?他有不但聲勢減少,而且更加工作努力他的工作能力是專業的側翼?"},{"start":6186.687,"end":6193.333,"text":"那個他的專業說實在比我強很多啦所以部長你不會當側翼不會當網軍就對了這點你輸他"},{"start":6197.67,"end":6224.806,"text":"不是專業啦,專業他的工作效率啦,以及對事情的一個分析能力啦,都給我們衛福部很多的好啦,我還是覺得啦,部長你還是要多管管底下的人啦如果真的在這樣子,不是任應該該讓他走就讓他走我們一定深切檢討,謹言慎行那我再請問部長,那個前幾天你有到那個"},{"start":6226.483,"end":6243.081,"text":"醫院去嘛 到急診室去看我真的實實是在那邊打氣絕對不是視察 我不需要視察因為數據 急診的數據都在我們手上所以你也相信我們現在這個急診室的狀況那個媒體拍的 你相信嗎"},{"start":6245.788,"end":6272.397,"text":"顧委員報告我在台大醫院出入40年我的出入幾乎不是正門都是從急診旁邊側門急車路進去所以急診每天發生的情況我跟那個石崇良他也是台大急診出身的應該都深切的了解你應該都知道嘛深切的了解他的一個辛苦那你為什麼那時候去看的時候你去打氣然後然後搞得人仰馬翻所有人都要移走呢所有病人都要往"},{"start":6273.658,"end":6288.577,"text":"那個 報告委員那個所有的所有的醫院都有發聲明說他們完全沒有去做任何完全都是正常的程序而且把時間點都寫得清清楚楚後來 後來媒體再去啊他去了林口 台大"},{"start":6289.678,"end":6316.732,"text":"我沒有去林口長庚啦林口長庚永遠都是非常擁擠的但是因為時間的關係我已經到我本來沒有要去看雙河啦但是到已經四點多的時候我想說雙河還是聽說也是也是屬於比較擁擠的所以特別那個時候才打電話跟他說要去部長以後如果你要去視察這個你上我車我們直接上你也不要問我去哪裡我帶你去看可以嗎"},{"start":6317.915,"end":6334.724,"text":"我可以隨時配合委員如果可以的話那個古代青菜大臣要微服出訪他一定不會驚動地方這樣我們才看得到民間的真正的狀況這樣好不好我沒有要去看我沒有說實在我不是去視察我是真的去打氣而已然後"},{"start":6336.005,"end":6354.212,"text":"也給那些在努力的不管是給他院長督導督導你也是醫生啦我相信你也知道說我們醫院為什麼要分科那護理人員也是啦那急診需要內科床位內科床位滿床的時候婦婦產科有床"},{"start":6355.112,"end":6383.721,"text":"內科病人可能就會轉到婦產科你要醫護人員去執行他不熟悉的業務這樣對醫護人員其實來講說他的壓力是非常非常的大這個不是比喻這是現實發生的狀況那我也聽說你們說要推這個早期出院在宅接受治療照顧這個有嗎那人力呢有想過嗎一個團隊出去車程一天那個要算車程他一天能夠去幾家好這個我想"},{"start":6385.026,"end":6406.938,"text":"Hospital at home就是說我真的很感佩委員對這個醫療的了解跟關心那這個是其實在國際已經推很久了啦我知道啦但是我們現況我們也以台灣的現況來講我們僅有的人力就是要去做更有效率的事情如果讓我們一切都站在病人的立場如果他只是為了一個打個抗生素"},{"start":6409.085,"end":6425.602,"text":"這個我想大家都很有經驗我們也常常在服務打個抗生素如果一定要急診打一個禮拜大概就...您的想法跟用意出發點我覺得都不錯但是我覺得要回歸現實面就是說我們如果做這件事情的時候那如果這些人配置在醫院"},{"start":6426.644,"end":6440.167,"text":"他又可以照顧多少治療的這個患者我們這個不只醫院的團隊我們的基層團隊我們也希望地區醫院人力比較如果人力比較夠都可以投入這樣的我們現在的重點就是沒有人"},{"start":6441.515,"end":6464.784,"text":"不是沒有床有時候是不均的問題我們自己當民意代表我們每天可能要接幾十通的電話一、二十通電話就是沒有床的事情我們也很痛苦所以我們在去年就一直希望把健保點子提高讓醫護人員能夠留下來但是我們部裡面它又自動打折了我請問部長你那天有講到說"},{"start":6468.513,"end":6479.186,"text":"那個你突然公布說我們護理人員的薪資的數據你的目的是什麼你是說有7萬嗎是這樣子各位報告這個網站其實在112年的11月就已經"},{"start":6485.474,"end":6503.653,"text":"各醫院有400多家的醫院填上去那我在確認當時照護師邀請各醫院填上去的目的事實上不是這樣子啊是說是希望能夠讓護理人員知道各個醫院的薪資是怎麼樣可是你7萬是怎麼來的那當然是"},{"start":6506.212,"end":6517.509,"text":"包委你可以看一下這裡有個非公子齁如果是年資一年以下的最低值其實是四萬二也是相當低啦對啊所以我要問的是七萬是怎麼來的"},{"start":6519.689,"end":6534.507,"text":"所有的數據都是醫院他們那邊填的我們後來104薪資情報顯示一年以下的護理師年平均才58.4萬一到三年才達到62.5萬薪資根本就沒有你說的7萬"},{"start":6539.543,"end":6553.679,"text":"不是啦 7萬是因為那個網站上面我本來以為部長你說的7萬是今年你要把它調到7萬是這樣嗎這個是醫院他把固定收入跟會固定收入通通加起來除以2"},{"start":6554.88,"end":6582.208,"text":"的一個數字的成績我拜託委員齁能夠上一個醫照護師的網站比這個更詳細啦他裡面有寫各個醫院400多家醫院裡面的所有薪資我覺得那個薪資我問過所有醫院的院長他們說他們哪裡敢造假但是只是呈現方式的不一樣因為他呈現的是可能把所有的所有的醫院支出給護理人員的都把他加進去啦齁"},{"start":6583.268,"end":6589.129,"text":"所以真正護理的人員我們現在問的是護理師拿到的說我好像沒那麼高啊我的薪資就沒那麼高啊所以這樣的差距讓大家誤解我想我必須要真的感到抱歉那這個數據跟實際上拿的這個東西如果站在議案的立場他會覺得說這就是我付出給護理同仁的嘛我看到這七萬的數字這個部長宣布七萬的時候我很高興我從來沒有宣布多少"},{"start":6611.733,"end":6631.138,"text":"我要帶這些護理人員跟部長說謝謝你要把他調到7萬因為是有記者會說要尋找7萬我們只是把數據公費說實在如果能夠讓護理人員更高或達到這個似乎是我們也是日夜以求的事情7年的1260億的計畫有沒有那個113年執行哪些"},{"start":6638.717,"end":6663.054,"text":"不好意思 去年那個1260億的計畫那個叫...那個說像計畫嗎還是...護理人員那個護理人員政策準備12年這個策略 說像策略啦說像策略我想市長跟委員報告一下說像策略的一個做法"},{"start":6663.376,"end":6687.217,"text":"我們12項策略有4項是有公務預算的有4項一個就是這就包含了三班醫護比入法嘛對對那現在做的怎麼樣夜班獎勵夜班獎勵三班先達標先獎勵那因為去年是3月1號開始執行所以去年有用了40億你們不是說要讓三班護病比這個入法嗎"},{"start":6688.65,"end":6706.04,"text":"對我們先講因為現在如果要達到這樣的標準還要7000到8000人所以我們現在去年開始執行嘛就是因為人員不夠嘛對不對人員不夠所以你現在不能錄啊要增加的因為你錄了之後馬上這個船先獎勵然後朝著這個方向走這樣子"},{"start":6706.73,"end":6715.179,"text":"所以我們第一階段一定是留人才嘛那去年我們又核定政策準備中長程計畫護理人員的政策準備中長程計畫我們也編了248億每年68億"},{"start":6726.91,"end":6740.337,"text":"每年68億啦 4年是275億也就是說我們家前項計畫是總共護理人 這個投資護理是248億那我請教部長 這些計畫裡面哪些是護理人員直接能拿到的"},{"start":6741.004,"end":6756.795,"text":"夜班獎其實這都要用在護理人員的這個都要用在護理人員的這個職場環境的改善那夜班獎勵是直接到護理人員的薪資裡面夜班獎勵那先達標先獎勵呢原則上是要給白班然後沒關係因為時間的問題時間的關係那你現在不用急著回答我你們把這個113年180億執行的成效"},{"start":6771.164,"end":6786.471,"text":"多少錢花在提升醫護人員的待遇?把資料給我好嗎?好沒問題這多久可以給我?沒問題多久?兩個禮拜內兩個禮拜內好謝謝部長好謝謝委員對護理職場的關心非常感謝好謝謝邱委員謝謝部長繼續請廖偉強委員質詢"},{"start":6806.628,"end":6808.35,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請邱部長委員好"},{"start":6816.431,"end":6839.074,"text":"部長好首先要先給您看這是去年亞東醫院急診的主醫師在臉書上PO的燃燒殆盡的一頁他當時就說大量護理師離職小夜班排不出人力連續兩個O卡患者進來同時還要心肌梗塞、中風等病化"},{"start":6839.955,"end":6865.648,"text":"的病患人創下零死亡的紀錄是燃燒殆盡的一夜其實就凸顯了這個問題已經正在發生中那去年這張照片也引發了相當大的震撼今年以來這個急診還是一樣塞爆那醫師護理師病人也是一樣痛苦那最主要會造成這樣急診大塞車的問題我想你我都知道就是醫院中的護理人員的嚴重不足"},{"start":6866.388,"end":6878.334,"text":"那請教部長根據衛福部的統計台灣目前約有截至2月約有309,410名的持有護理證照的人員但實際職業的人員僅有193,503人那職業率僅62.5%請教一下部長職業率低的主要有哪些原因"},{"start":6891.926,"end":6907.789,"text":"我想從我的角度來講我來看市長要不要再補充那個當然市長當然職場的不夠力讓大家太辛苦那是不是待遇方面需要加強部長沒關係好我想這個知道我們先給你看一下上一頁的圖二基本上就是整個醫療的崩潰了並且持續惡化的這個循環就是醫療人力不足那其實我想要問的事情進一步"},{"start":6921.397,"end":6935.705,"text":"你剛剛講的這些問題可是今年以來你們總共召開了五場的營運會議對不對是的那請教部長我們剛剛都知道護理師是很重要的一個因素那這幾場會議找護理師去護理師全聯會或是護理師相關的團體去參加的有幾場"},{"start":6941.667,"end":6958.642,"text":"前面三場是因為要解決急診的整個運作的問題好部長我目前因為時間有限了第四次第五次我直接公布就是五場裡面你只有一場我目前掌握到只有在健保署在3月7日的時候有找護理師相關團體去那是因為要針對要真的針對他們的問題去解決所以當然"},{"start":6963.246,"end":6987.779,"text":"是對嘛但是有時候是前面是站在院方跟整個系統的改善當然但是我覺得部長但是我們明天我們昨天也跟那個醫療工會裡面大部分都是護理同仁做了非常詳盡的溝通是這個部分我要提醒您的就是這個因為其實前幾天你也來拜訪我也跟你講過其實這個明明大家都知道護理師人員人力不足的問題剛剛你也講到很多相關的好情況"},{"start":6988.706,"end":7007.919,"text":"所以現在這個護理師這個護士工會全聯會也指出台灣護理人力從2019年就已經出現了流出量大於流入量的現象那離職率以及空缺率從110年就開始持續的上升那今年的一二月"},{"start":7008.92,"end":7024.15,"text":"也已經超過550位護理師離職那預計3月份的這個數據會更恐怖那也不少的報導有說護理師到各地的護理師公會還有醫院內辦理離職手續居然出現排隊人潮至少等一個小時"},{"start":7025.251,"end":7047.198,"text":"所以現在不只是離職潮而已其實更是一個離職海嘯那請教部長目前對於這樣嚴重的護理人員流失你覺得現在的因應措施對護理人員來說有感嗎能挽回護理人員的心嗎那我也知道你很努力的找錢但是到五月份才有這些緊急應急的措施會不會又發生這期間啊"},{"start":7048.078,"end":7055.391,"text":"重點是這期間會不會又發生像高雄這個重症病患轉診150公里外成大醫院人死亡的悲劇"},{"start":7057.004,"end":7078.565,"text":"謝謝委員的關心齁我一個一個回答第一個剛剛你提的個案它是成大在成大發生的不是在高雄成大醫院的沒有沒有沒有它就是在成大看診它沒有完全跟高雄沒關係那在成大看診以後因為沒有ICU那開刀因為他開刀必須要加入病房所以他找的他的朵六院朵六院區齁過去"},{"start":7080.046,"end":7105.084,"text":"那他是不是到很遠的地方去轉診時間拖到了基本上是在成大的體系啦當然距離是有比較遠的是嗎我們所謂的高雄不是高雄醫院啦是他的距離很遠嘛對啊 那個跟高雄沒有關係啦對啊 當然但是我的意思就是說他從那邊要到150公里外很遠嘛 對不對那這是不是也是因為有同樣的問題發生就是它是整個系統結構裡面的問題嘛"},{"start":7108.392,"end":7126.562,"text":"所以現在部長我想不是解釋我的重點不是針對這個個案我們是在檢討是整個系統性的問題嘛 是吧我剛剛以前有講任何到急診我跟所有院長的心願就是到急診能住院就趕快住院"},{"start":7127.592,"end":7149.878,"text":"老部長 就越快越好我跟你說你剛有提到護理師的待遇不佳的問題啦外部的拉力也是護理師流失的主因那首先根據這個護理師工會的統計啊也可以看到護理師人員你看這個線圖喔在醫院的比例就是歷年來連續的降低喔那診所的比例也連續的升高"},{"start":7150.646,"end":7174.822,"text":"那另外臺灣護理人員卻選擇赴美國、澳洲、紐西蘭、新加坡等外國去工作那澳洲的註冊護理師第一年的年薪大概是170萬台幣那美國護理師月薪大概是10萬至少那年薪就是120萬以上那我想這種巨大的薪資差距也是人才外流的主要原因之一"},{"start":7175.703,"end":7185.361,"text":"那我想要請教一下部長不 衛福部是否有計畫調整護理人員薪資結構讓確保這些薪資政府能夠真正留住這些人才"},{"start":7186.724,"end":7208.529,"text":"我們一定全力來增加我想政府也一直在努力在我們國家的財源之下還有在健保的有限的健保的資源之下怎麼樣給同仁增加待遇很好謝謝不只護理人員如果你要比較的話連醫師也比其他國家薪水少很多是沒錯所以我們現在現在看一下你剛剛有講到一些前提對不對"},{"start":7211.81,"end":7230.517,"text":"所以日前媒体报道有预办诊所的护理人员加薪我们是很乐见乐见这些护理人员都能够加薪不过也要进一步去看你刚刚有讲到资源有限当然在什么情况之下我们对于国家对于健保或者是医疗的投资可能不足的情况之下"},{"start":7231.499,"end":7256.615,"text":"我們再進一步去看細看從統計數字上來看醫院等級尤其是醫學中心的護理人員流失嚴重如果要更細緻的去分析資料恐怕是醫院中的資深護理師的流失更嚴重資深護理師的流失更嚴重而去年7月的時候行政院這裡有一個護理人力政策整備中長程計畫裡面"},{"start":7259.036,"end":7281.121,"text":"第10頁有提到這個護理人員的流失與回流的值與量其中流失是以年資10年以上30歲到40歲已有豐富經驗的護理人員護理的離職為主所以我想衛福部也清楚資深護理師人員流失情況的嚴重那請教部長這群"},{"start":7282.501,"end":7300.501,"text":"我想這群護理師資深的人員留不住不只可能不只是關病床的問題甚至也有可能造成整個醫療團隊的銜接甚至配合產生問題也進一步影響工作的成效照顧品質病人安全意外事件甚至醫療錯誤等等未來也有可能有更多的醫療糾紛那部長"},{"start":7303.384,"end":7331.325,"text":"離職的資深護理人員如果願意重回職場其實是對於整個這個醫療體系來講不僅引擎成本比較低那又是集戰力又可以馬上緩解人力不足的情況嘛對不對所以我也去看了一下這個而且他還可以去訓練新人那我也去看了一下這本這個中長城的計畫的12項主要項目裡面其實跟這個關係比較有關的工作項目是所謂的護理新手臨床教師制度"},{"start":7332.233,"end":7361.573,"text":"好那他也是主要是要減緩新任護理人員的離職率而不是而非這個提高資深有經驗的護理人員繼續留任的意願他不是他主要是他主要裡面有講說減緩新任護理人員的離職率那所以我想要請教部長是有沒有可能在另密裁員為這個作為增加現職的資深人員的這個9任獎金或鼓勵醫院提出9任獎金制度"},{"start":7362.473,"end":7378.401,"text":"因為這個中長城的計劃裡面的護理新手臨床的制度裡面他這裡面是有寫預計要找1000位護理新手的臨床指導教師但是這項經費一年大概是編3.6億那也就是說每人每月是3萬元的訓練費可是我想要問說請教這樣子的"},{"start":7382.583,"end":7408.936,"text":"你覺得這樣子的三萬元的這個去吸引已經離職而且有經驗的護理師回任是有辦法的嗎是有足夠的吸引力的嗎再者裡面有提到是這個全職或兼職都可以那你在實務上在全職上是不是有困難因為他本身就已經能量能量能就有限了你又說全職再給你這個那在實務上是不是可行的我想這部長請問你怎麼看"},{"start":7410.557,"end":7433.806,"text":"非常感謝我們委員對這個護理的狀況掌握得非常精闢 令人敬佩那這個有關於這個部分臨床導師這部分是不一定要專任的對 我知道我剛剛說全職會兼任嘛對 那另外就是說您提到的說我們提到的那個是不是我們另外來闢財源來希望那個離職因為那個孩子當時跟30歲結婚"},{"start":7438.069,"end":7463.043,"text":"他的生小孩的確是真的是兩頭煎熬啦有時候離開可是不要離開永遠離開所以部長這件事情我剛有講他邏輯很清楚啦就是說你們之前的報告也知道說資深離職的其實是其中一個重要人物如果他能夠在某一個小孩子比較比較大的不理你的時候那你當然就回歸他自己所以部長其實主要是兩個問題第一個是不是應該要利命財源去"},{"start":7463.963,"end":7485.515,"text":"吸引這些之爭的 這個我們我們有在做喔我們有在做 對然後第二個所以我剛剛講的就是這個嘛就是說你們是不是要另辟財源讓這些讓九任獎金鼓勵他們留下來然後還有一個是吸引他們回流就吸引他們回流吸引他們回流都可以來演對不對那所以我想要講的事情是這件事情因為你們還沒執行嘛對不對這個計畫還沒執行對不對那個"},{"start":7491.098,"end":7519.214,"text":"如果你执行的话是不是应该要我其实想要这样说你们应该要去追踪成效然后滚动式的检讨因为这是一个必须要做的事情那卫福部我想要问一下这个卫福部刚刚大家很多人也提到你们公告统计护理人员平均薪资是7万但是这也很奇怪是主技处统计医疗保健行业每人月这个经常性薪资大概是5.9万那劳动部统计的是4.98万"},{"start":7520.495,"end":7536.554,"text":"那人力銀行的薪資調查台灣一年以下的護理師平均月薪更只有4.6萬所以我想這也是大家很好奇的你這個時候在那個情況之下你公布這個然後為什麼會跟其他的單位的數據差這麼多那"},{"start":7539.313,"end":7558.736,"text":"這個平均7萬的公告也讓很多的媒體或是這些社群媒體就說來賽心之擔那根據我們大概了解的狀況算是資深的護理師都在5到6萬左右那所以請教部長這7萬到底是怎麼出來的那難道你當初看到這個數據的時候你不會也覺得說怎麼會跟想像中差了這麼多"},{"start":7560.27,"end":7576.639,"text":"的確我們看到那個各醫院那個一個網站讓他各醫院自己上去報有400多家醫院報的時候他所呈現出來的的確是有給我感覺surprise的你也覺得surprise嗎以前好像"},{"start":7577.319,"end":7599.148,"text":"因為我感覺以前真的是偏低有這樣的數據我當然好奇嘛當然就去看它裡面是包括固定收入跟匯固定收入所以在醫院裡面它幾乎可能第一個它把所有的收入包括你譬如說報稅的時候的收入部長我想要講這件事你前面可能已經有解釋了我想要講一個重點"},{"start":7602.679,"end":7626.837,"text":"就是一定要先面對問題才能夠解決問題那你面對這個問題的時候你身為主管機關你應該要更精確的去了解其中的確切的數字所以這部分你們一定要回去改進然後才可以把這個確切數字搞清楚你也才知道如何對症下藥當然當然包圍我們只是公布這個網站而已啦"},{"start":7627.958,"end":7646.964,"text":"有些有些媒體有什麼就要去自己平清自己怎麼樣沒有我跟你講我們是公佈公佈那個是醫院舔的啦那這個當時112年的用意的確只是希望去求職某會員求職是有所以你應該要回去回查就是到底這個數據到底精不精確會導致我已經今天已經講過了如果導致讓基層會員就我心情就不太管啊這個算法的不一樣所導致的困擾所以你現在要做的事情我在這邊跟大家道歉好"},{"start":7657.489,"end":7679.886,"text":"那但是請我們會再去釐清楚對你要去釐清楚這件事情而且我真的保證我們一定全力去增加不管是工作的環境尊嚴還有待遇很好剛剛我們是講待遇所以接下來就講工作環境嘛那台灣醫院的戶邊比也是遠高國際喔那業務量也很繁重那所以台灣醫學中心目前是說"},{"start":7681.141,"end":7709.655,"text":"大概全日護病比是1比9區域醫院是1比12地區醫院1比15那像反觀國際上像我找到資料是澳洲公立醫院的護病比是1比4那美國南加州的內外科病房是1比5我想這種工作負擔的巨大差異就是你剛說的我們一定要改善我們工作環境的因素而且你改善除了要讓他們流質之外其實現在的這個數據也會嚴重的影響病人的就醫的醫療品質"},{"start":7711.016,"end":7734.877,"text":"那我也想要跟你說一個根據一篇在2014年發表的這個Lancet的研究顯示護病比如果超過1比6的時候每增加一名病患死亡率會高7%所以這不僅是負擔過重的問題還是傷害國民健康安全的問題那我就想要請教那請問你們的三班護病比現在的進度到底是什麼"},{"start":7736.08,"end":7758.82,"text":"那你以前他們說要兩年內入法四年達標作為目標你們現在有辦法達成嗎這目標會沒有嗎包委員我想要達到三班戶變比的一個比例甚至有更好的一個規定我想都是我們朝向的目標這中間必須第一個護理人力也要盡量我們來努力讓他加強"},{"start":7759.801,"end":7774.136,"text":"但是我們在三班互動筆的努力之下的確我們在從譬如說醫學中心的三班整體達到利用我們從去年的三類到今年的一類從36%變成59%沒有那你可以達成嗎你們原本目標兩年內入法四年內達標可以做到嗎"},{"start":7775.357,"end":7797.903,"text":"我想這個部分可以做到嗎應該重點是來增加護理的人力是不然的話不然的話你達不到標準所以我其實我整個邏輯是有層次的所以我們一步一步來啦國家的進步也希望大家所以你也要盡速提高護理師護理人員的待遇對不對我們日以繼夜來努力啦所以你要有具體的方案你到底要怎麼幫他加喔"},{"start":7798.303,"end":7820.358,"text":"所以基本上現在剛剛講到針對護理人員的條件惡化除了你們現在三班護病比沒有達標或者是你沒有在不知道你到底可不可以達標的情況之下已經改善非常多了我想跟你說還有跨科資源的政策你也讓他們壓力更大那比如說比起外國美國他可能大部分護理師一週三到四天所以相對我們就是"},{"start":7821.098,"end":7845.183,"text":"有這樣的問題所以你們是不是也應該要有計劃的建立護理人員的勞動權益保障機制也確保合理的工時當然當然當然合理的工作負荷然後建立明確的申訴管道和獎懲制度好這個部分因為時間關係我給護理人員真的就好像我們自己的女兒啦愛惜都來不及了但不能嘴巴上這樣講啊這個問題不是今天才發生啦部長我們一定盡量讓她一個更好的環境"},{"start":7845.523,"end":7865.551,"text":"不是 你不能喊口號因為這就是不是喊口號是一步一步非常的努力對 你剛剛這樣講就是要很重視所以現在有幾個建議是不是具體的行動立即編列一些專項的預算盡速的大幅提高護理人員的薪資待遇確保新進的人員至少也可以達到"},{"start":7867.192,"end":7882.951,"text":"那個年薪台幣70萬以上我想這是護理師公會也很希望看到的哪有加速我們的友善職場所以你的三班戶並比的立法進程你不能夠說因為人你一直找不足就用這個理由那這樣永遠都找不足你永遠就沒辦法推動嘛"},{"start":7883.692,"end":7904.711,"text":"那所以你應該這雞生蛋誕生雞的問題嘛你是不是應該要訂定明確的時間表跟你們這個罰則或時間到了有什麼樣的責任要追究你總是要互相的去給自己一個目標才可以做到嘛那還有第三個是增加9任的獎金鼓勵資深的護理師留任或生育後回任"},{"start":7905.994,"end":7930.535,"text":"第四個 建立護理師人員的職涯發展跟專業自主的制度性保障提升護理專業在醫療體系中的地位如果部長再不趕快的有效的採取這個措施我們大家都看到已經面臨崩潰的台灣的醫療體系它不只是護理人員而已它也是讓百姓面對到醫療品質不佳的狀況而且其實我要跟你講的就是這個"},{"start":7931.195,"end":7942.826,"text":"本席在去年一年多前我面對陳建仁院長的時候就已經跟他講過了這個問題當時還要被他三娘教子就說你不專業結果一年後還是發生了"},{"start":7943.991,"end":7962.889,"text":"對不對所以這個東西我覺得不能政治化部長請你我相信你也是願意做事的部長但是我覺得你要正視現在亡羊補牢還有一點機會是希望你可以拿出魄力解決問題是的我想委員提出的這些訴求我們一定努力來嚴厲來一直"},{"start":7966.816,"end":7985.346,"text":"來盡量把它達成這樣子好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝廖委員去年被陳建成委員修理了他耿耿於懷好 我們請胡田綺委員質詢好 謝謝主席 那請問邱部長"},{"start":8001.488,"end":8030.817,"text":"好部長辛苦我相信最近因為我們針對急診室滿床還有護理師離職潮這部分問題我相信我們衛福部應該也是今天很多委員來提出質詢那我們現在面臨這個醫療困境針對急診室滿床還有護理師離職潮這部分我們認為這不外乎就是錢跟人跟政策大概就這三個面向是是是"},{"start":8031.297,"end":8045.307,"text":"那針對錢的部分我們去年立法院有三讀通過組決議就是承諾健保點值1點達0.95那期限是到今年的6月那時候"},{"start":8046.448,"end":8065.546,"text":"部長也有針對媒體的訪問說針對這部分部長說有信心能夠做到那目前這部分部長覺得現在的進度怎麼樣跟委員報告一下感謝大會的一個大院的幫忙讓我們在"},{"start":8068.248,"end":8088.5,"text":"我們還有就是大家的努力之下所以我們今年啦今年114年的健保總額的高推估到達5.5所以增加了500多億然後把一些原來塞在總額裡面的公衛的方面拿出來這個部分我們也補充了100多億特別針對"},{"start":8089.901,"end":8109.839,"text":"罕變各方面政府也給他額外的公務預算所以總共有700多億所以這個的確增加了700多億這是有史以來最高的所以應該是最有機會來達到0095而且以現在我們大家的努力在今年的第四季預估"},{"start":8111.48,"end":8120.707,"text":"有很多都已經快要達到0.95%了所以這部分其實我們也是都支持你看今年我們健保總額成長率5.5%就多了531億那實質我們是成長8.13%總共多了"},{"start":8128.773,"end":8155.007,"text":"712億那今年的健保總值總共達到9400多億所以我們認為說基本上應該難怪部長會說有信心應該我們也是樂觀其成因為這健保點值達到0.95就是希望醫院有更多的資源能夠運用也讓硬體能夠更新最主要就是讓這個人員加薪希望對這部分護理人員的離職潮希望有"},{"start":8155.347,"end":8159.878,"text":"最正面實質的我們用各種方法來把要給護理人員的就要"},{"start":8160.936,"end":8188.587,"text":"直接給護理人員對 因為我們希望這健保點子的提升最主要也是希望能夠解決這護理師的離職潮這個我們會公開透明來處理這一塊好 那這是經費的部分問題看起來經費的部分我們也都是支持的嘛是 感謝那針對護理方的部分還有一個就是我們了解到就是心血短缺還有既有人力流失那我們看我們教育部歷年的統計喔"},{"start":8190.748,"end":8196.271,"text":"從90年我們護理相關領域90年報考的有16799人可是到112年就跌到8500多人幾乎跌了一半"},{"start":8206.298,"end":8227.745,"text":"而且這五年我們專技高考護理師的報名人數也明顯降低那不知道這一部分我們衛福部有沒有跟教育部來研討過為什麼這個人數下降的這麼多那衛福部針對這部分有沒有提出一些方案來跟教育部來溝通首先這個數據我想師長來分析一下好了"},{"start":8229.173,"end":8231.515,"text":"這個數據可能要進一步釐清我們目前大概有40多個護理學校在培育護理學生那每年大概是14500到15000之間不過這個有重複真正的新的護理人員是大概是9000每年大概是9000"},{"start":8249.89,"end":8252.351,"text":"因為有的他念了這個大學畢業要念博士碩士或是專科再去念二技那這個是重複計算但是近的話是每年大概有9000個新的護理人力的這個培育這樣子"},{"start":8265.276,"end":8271.617,"text":"那缺的少子化之後其實是慢慢有在下降是真的是因為少子化的關係整個結構性的那現在對於護理人力的這個投資的這個培育世界衛生組織也一直在倡議就是說自己的國家自己培育自己的護理人力那所以他們是建議說應該要增加8到10person這樣的人力的增加的補充所以目前教育部呢他們給各個學校因為"},{"start":8293.762,"end":8314.255,"text":"各個學校的那個學生的員額是有核定的每個學校可以培育多少是依照學校的量能來做量的一個控制那現在他們有開放10%的這個員額所以您的意思是說其實他這個人數降低跟少子化有比較大的關係跟我們勞動環境有沒有影響"},{"start":8315.336,"end":8340.629,"text":"當然也會有影響啊如果說職場環境會影響他要不要投入這一個選擇所以我覺得衛福部應該要檢討一下是不是因為這個職場勞動環境影響到他們來報考從事這個行業的意願所以你看報考人數其實是下降很多當然少子化是一個因素但是我認為他報考的意願應該實質降低很多你看差了幾乎一倍"},{"start":8341.755,"end":8361.924,"text":"如何讓我們在高中畢業生或者是甚至有專科的更多的人願意來投入這個科系其實我個人覺得非常重要對啊我們現在擔心護理人員大量離職潮但是這個要整個讓提升當然提升未來護理的專業的尊重"},{"start":8364.589,"end":8373.275,"text":"對他的一個待遇的提升環境的保護這個都是要做的事情所以我說這部分衛福部要去加強你衛福部加強這個勞動環境才能讓教育部去招生會有更多人來報考當然當然"},{"start":8381.92,"end":8406.881,"text":"所以我們現在擔心護理人員大量離職潮是台灣醫療體系崩潰的前奏你看我們據我們了解去年11月到今年2月我相信今天也很多委員提出短短的4個月就有754個離職而且剛剛我有聽到也有很多人詢問說他們說護理師連辦離職手續都要排隊一個多小時"},{"start":8408.373,"end":8430.408,"text":"那我相信剛剛部長好像針對這部分也有回覆那可能部長也說因為還有其他等等的因素但是我覺得這也是一個警訊每一個醫師或每一個護理師當他去工會辦離職的時候因為我也當過台北市醫師工會理事長只要有人去離職我一定請同仁去了解原因"},{"start":8431.469,"end":8444.936,"text":"是不是對這個職業不喜歡的我想護理師也是一樣任何一個離職除了他有家庭的因素真的沒辦法不然我們都會覺得很可惜所以你有提到怎麼樣去右繼黨"},{"start":8446.457,"end":8471.98,"text":"把離職的這一段時間以後又能夠再能夠讓他回來等等的所以我們現在護理師荒嘛你看薪水又短缺而且這個離職潮又這麼大你看短短四個月就700多人離職那而且剛剛我也聽我們委員講其實針對這部分我們次長真的也要檢討一下因為"},{"start":8472.941,"end":8491.606,"text":"我們第一線的醫療人員就已經很辛苦那在接受訪問在講的時候又用這種冷言冷語我覺得對這個從業人員真的是一個很大的傷害所以這部分部長真的還是要多關切一下我們順勢檢討要求所有的同仁請人順行"},{"start":8492.677,"end":8511.934,"text":"對啊我覺得這還是要多加改進喔那我們針對衛福部喔我們自己部立醫院我們了解到好像部立醫院他本身這個本薪啊你看台北台中苗栗算起來他這個本薪一個小時像台北大概只有250塊"},{"start":8513.275,"end":8530.441,"text":"台中244塊苗栗大概238塊而且事實上據我們了解他的時數還是低估正常他這個時數應該每天是超過8個小時所以看起來他這個本薪真的是非常非常的低耶 部長"},{"start":8532.188,"end":8555.945,"text":"這個 因為是有關不利 我請執行長回答跟你回報一下那當然我們公立醫院 它心思結構就是有本縫 專業家子加上獎勵金那我們調查26家不利醫院當然有分成公職跟非公職那公職的部分 我們用中位數調查所有的8000多名的護理人員我們的公職是 中位數是72000那非公職的是52000"},{"start":8560.528,"end":8581.781,"text":"公尺對就是含獎勵金因為我現在講的是本金啦本心嘛我講是本心我當然知道你說其他的什麼家籍什麼等等的部分那我是認為說這個本心的部分應該也是要檢討一下因為現在就大家就認為說護理師啊又累工作又雜那造成會缺就是因為"},{"start":8582.501,"end":8604.874,"text":"他所付出的得不到相當的代價啊那連我們自己部立醫院都帶頭這麼低薪你如何去帶動其他醫院診所的這些護理師的薪水委員你報告這個薪資的裡面的架構其實都是按照行政院裡面的它裡面的包含它的點包含它的級數都是按照這個部分那當然如果說有這個值得再檢討的我們會在這個部分再來評估檢討"},{"start":8606.435,"end":8627.797,"text":"最主要還是在於說我們的整個薪資結構是剛剛提到其實還有他的一個獎勵金跟所有的專業佳績就是再加起來這個他的薪資佳橋剛已經報告過所以包含這個公職跟非公職的部分其實我們都努力能夠達到這個一定的這個所謂的合理待遇好你現在看一下你看我們這有ABC你看A"},{"start":8628.598,"end":8643.086,"text":"他每天固定上班8小時好B他每天上班8個小時輪班C是白班小夜大夜三班輪子而且要輪班工時需要10到12個小時你看他整個"},{"start":8643.746,"end":8664.034,"text":"再加上他的休假方式A跟B都是固定週休二日C要排休而且沒有固定假日你再看他的薪資結構一個底薪三萬B是三萬二到四萬二C是三萬五到四萬五那請問部長你看看這三個薪資結構如果是你 你會挑哪一個工作"},{"start":8664.929,"end":8685.266,"text":"我首先當然要跟他談有沒有福利條件如果是第一個譬如說C的話這個是你每個月給我的還是未來有沒有包括年終獎金三節有沒有獎金所以這個要才知道說我雖然可以拿到四萬五其實也不高"},{"start":8686.327,"end":8701.224,"text":"對啊 這個就是我們現在醫院跟診所還有醫美它的薪資結構你就在苗栗新竹那個地方好了的診所你喊五萬塊也請不到人"},{"start":8702.085,"end":8725.337,"text":"所以這部分我希望部長我們今天真的是希望針對護理師他們待遇的部分要好好去檢討你看為什麼他不要在醫院都跑到診所都跑到醫美去為什麼這個上班的工作的內容還有工時還有所有的福利根本就不成比例如果我們不去深切針對這些問題檢討"},{"start":8728.139,"end":8732.464,"text":"這個問題只會繼續惡化下去你看我們從106年醫院職場人數從66.5%下降到63%就減少了3.5%它的降幅是5%而診所的"},{"start":8745.938,"end":8767.527,"text":"職場人數從13.7成長到16.8就明顯上升所以基本上醫院急診室這些護理師都跑到醫美都跑到診所去那你看他的整個福利的條件工時內容這個我覺得就是很大的問題希望我們衛福部部長針對這部分好好的檢討不然這個問題喔"},{"start":8769.188,"end":8792.334,"text":"只會更嚴重我們不只徹底檢討已經在落實我們感謝我們中央健保署的實施長最近非常努力在加重這個是我們主席一直要求的集中症的一個給付幾乎把我們其他今年的其他總額其他以外的其他費用都挪在集中症的補充好希望衛福部的部長這個加緊腳步趕快"},{"start":8796.015,"end":8817.08,"text":"訂定一些良善的制度讓我們基層從業人員有感不然這個問題有更加嚴重到時候這急診室這擁捨的情形我們怕會越來越嚴重到時候這部長真的難以收拾我們全力以赴我們也會跟各醫院團隊大家一起來努力部長跟我們同仁大家加油謝謝謝謝副委員謝謝部長休息10分鐘"},{"start":8830.342,"end":8830.962,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":9453.674,"end":9458.197,"text":"時間到了好我們現在繼續開會請我們黃秀芳委員發言謝謝主席已經開始了好謝謝請部長"},{"start":9483.481,"end":9507.22,"text":"好請我們邱部長委員好 部長好 部長在前一陣子可能在二月那時候其實我也接到很多基層醫療就是民眾到醫院然後在急診那邊等非常的久或者是這個在急診然後要進到病房那也等非常久 等了很多天"},{"start":9509.242,"end":9531.982,"text":"這個時候我們就會覺得說其實我們台灣就是一直會覺得說台灣的這個醫療做得很好那為什麼在這一兩年當中大家會覺得好像整個有一些狀況那我們也看到就是說在去年的時候我們去年7月我們也有一個就是護理人力的政策準備中長程的計畫"},{"start":9533.183,"end":9546.992,"text":"那這個計畫下來之後其實有一些護理人員覺得蠻開心那有的人會有一些抱怨也有一些反彈那我們也看到就是說原本你們今年又編列了這個47億"},{"start":9549.313,"end":9576.329,"text":"就不分醫院層級然後病房類別擴大給負啦那這個部分我原本一直認為就是說應該是從1月份應該是從1月份就會開始可是好像到現在這些護理人員好像也也還沒有收到這樣的一個給付那我想請教部長這個到底是怎麼回事報告委員我想預算程序如果完成"},{"start":9578.206,"end":9590.019,"text":"我們就要趕快立即發來現在已經是三月份了因為現在整個預算程序要立好那你們什麼時候提出解凍整個會計程"},{"start":9598.815,"end":9613.76,"text":"現在呼籲嘛可能要看整個settle down 看預算 預算有多少當然要解凍的就盡量來解凍 請大家幫忙那有些可能被刪的各方面"},{"start":9614.46,"end":9637.68,"text":"我們做整體,一旦確定以後,我們追溯到1月馬上來發所以大家放心啦當然啊,當然你從1月份,原本這個從1月份到現在3月了這個會讓很多護理人員會覺得說那我們衛福部就嘴巴說說而已啊,實際上也沒有拿到啊"},{"start":9638.22,"end":9653.915,"text":"那我是認為就是說部長針對這一部分如果說需要委員會這邊來協助或者是你們還需要提出這個譬如說可以有一部分可以解凍的話那是不是趕快來進行這樣的一個程序"},{"start":9655.521,"end":9667.681,"text":"是 節奏是一回事 感謝委員會幫忙那這是整個會計程序 我剛剛有報告過嘛你整個國家總預算的確定以後才會動啊"},{"start":9669.947,"end":9698.393,"text":"所以我們也希望能夠趕快有確定那昨天也才做一個預算呼籲的處理而已所以部長就是說我們現在為什麼基層醫療院所會有這樣的一個問題其實有很多會覺得說可能護理人力的不足然後有的是關床就是說關床那這個是最大的原因嗎就是說護理人力不足然後關床"},{"start":9699.033,"end":9724.479,"text":"然後造成可能急診要進到病房就是大塞車這個是最主要的原因嗎當然整個醫療環境都有影響啦譬如說我們在分級分流有沒有落實那才不會增加急診不必要的壓力人力那所以這個的確是未來長期要去要去努力的啦那那個"},{"start":9727.521,"end":9736.074,"text":"那護理人力的一個職場的環境跟護理人力的不足就是我們大家都知道的事情而且一直在努力"},{"start":9738.382,"end":9764.8,"text":"需要的人更多但是我們在12項的一個策略努力之下的確在去年的12頁到去年的1頁其實我們也增加了3000多位的婦女同仁雖然最近看起來聽說好像有比較多離子因為最近過年後一般都是離子的一個巔峰等開學以後就是說畢業以後又是一個進來的一個"},{"start":9767.679,"end":9791.874,"text":"加減起來總是去年也多了3800個但是真的還不夠不但人數我們要加強人數加強我們在護病比的達標會更快我們的工作同仁的壓力也會工作的負荷也會比較輕所以怎麼樣去加強護理人類的留任或者行進是非常重要的課題"},{"start":9792.657,"end":9814.867,"text":"沒錯那部長我想請教就是說我們一直在提到除了讓所有的這個護理人員可能有這個津貼之外那怎麼樣讓這個分級醫療的這個部分那我想請教部長就目前你認為我們的這個分級醫療做得如何"},{"start":9817.195,"end":9833.311,"text":"分級醫療其實從民國76年開始我們在做醫療網的時候就是分級醫療那後來當然因為醫院一直蓋所以醫院的立場會覺得分級醫療他們比較不那麼努力在推行"},{"start":9834.232,"end":9854.616,"text":"那加上我們的民眾還是比較以傾向使用大醫院好像比較安心部長你們要怎麼去讓民眾更了解就是說要有分級醫療的這樣的一個觀念重病或者是有時候也不能用強迫因為一定要讓民眾說我去看基層醫療電腦比較安心電腦適當很好的照顧"},{"start":9861.377,"end":9867.791,"text":"我不是我去台大我是醫水中心等很久很難掛號等很久看一看就說啊你這個齁"},{"start":9869.076,"end":9893.111,"text":"可能不是我的科要掛另外一科你又要等兩個禮拜像真的這樣都會比較對病人是情何以堪可是如果你在你的社區就有熟悉的診所或最好是有建立關係的一個家庭醫師製作那你隨時任何問題包括打電話都可以我們現在有社區醫療群社區醫療群就是有一群家庭醫師24小時"},{"start":9896.229,"end":9918.025,"text":"你有什麼事情只要打個電話一定幫你做處理大家要善用所以你覺得目前分級醫療做得如何一定要大大的加強所以是不滿意從我的角度我是不滿意那如果不滿意的話要怎麼如何加強"},{"start":9920.044,"end":9947.823,"text":"你一方面宣導另外一方面我也知道就是說我們這個衛福部期望就是醫學中心下轉可能就是說病情穩定的這個慢性病人到基層診所可是我們也看到就是說今年的這個基層的這個總額就是已經確定這個總額這個總預算了那如果說要診所收治更多的這個病人那勢必應該會稀釋掉這個點子"},{"start":9950.925,"end":9971.138,"text":"這個點子如果更多病人進來嘛基層診所更多病人進來那可能這個點子就會被稀釋掉那這樣子的話你又要如何去確保就是說這個基層診所是能夠接住病人的啦所以我覺得就是說部長可能針對這一部分我們又要希望就是說醫學中心"},{"start":9972.759,"end":9991.807,"text":"這個可能就是做急重難含症的這些病患那希望這個比較輕症可能就到基層醫療院所去那怎麼樣去讓這個分級做得更徹底分級醫療做得更徹底我覺得這個應該也是我們目前要去做的一個課題"},{"start":9993.493,"end":10008.995,"text":"感謝委員這個非常宏觀的來分析我們整個未來應該要走的走向那我們所有的政策都盡量讓民眾很自然的就變成分析的醫療第一個我們讓民眾有他信心的家庭醫師"},{"start":10010.137,"end":10031.922,"text":"第二個我們也提高在集中症大醫院裡面集中症的給護我想這個部分在那個實施上的努力之下也都有很好的成果那今年是一個非常好的機會來實行分級醫療因為今年在政府的幫忙之下以及大家努力之下我們今年的總額是"},{"start":10033.697,"end":10056.502,"text":"提升很多 單單健保的總額就提升500多億當然這裡面也有蠻多部分會在基層所以基層的醫療密集度這個部分的經費會比較多也就是說不怕接病人其實今年是一個很好的機會所以今年如果能夠利用這個錢比較就是說經費比較多的情況之下總共用在健保的700多億包括我們"},{"start":10058.083,"end":10067.593,"text":"讓基層醫療能夠多做一些預防保健的工作病人下來給他前人的一個照顧然後應該幾戶的譬如說我們政府也讓城縣"},{"start":10071.601,"end":10091.742,"text":"可能二十年來沒有增加大家都陪在地上做的這次要加倍幾乎所以你所講的如果說今年預算那如果說今年是預算比往年還多的話我覺得有一些政策我覺得應該要趕快去做而且是要積極的去推動"},{"start":10092.502,"end":10111.32,"text":"比如說分級醫療的這個部分如果往年做的不是那麼好的話那是不是你覺得說預算有增加那如何鼓勵基層醫療院所或者是這個醫學中心下轉這個可能慢性病的這個患者或是比較輕症的患者下轉我覺得應該也要有一些誘因啦"},{"start":10112.321,"end":10137.726,"text":"一方面也要讓所有的這個民眾知道就是我大病可能我這個急症或這個大病可能就到這個醫學中心那其他感冒一般的這個不是那麼嚴重的話可能就到診所或者到地區醫院區醫院就可以了我覺得這個應該也要再再去落實啦要不然我覺得每一年尤其是在過年前後每一次看到可能就"},{"start":10139.167,"end":10156.668,"text":"就是醫院可能擠爆一方面可能也當時可能這個時候就是流感或者是像今年的話也許是流感或者是諾蘿病毒那也會造成整個這個醫院可能人力不足那怎樣好讓這個大醫院的部分醫學中心這個"},{"start":10158.59,"end":10176.278,"text":"能夠專心在他們的這個急重難喊症那其他比較輕症或者是比較慢性病的話可能就下轉到其他醫院我覺得這個應該也是我們衛福部如果說今年你覺得預算有比較餘裕的話我覺得應該要有一些誘因然後趕快把這個分級醫療趕快落實"},{"start":10177.891,"end":10191.81,"text":"非常感謝真的很敬佩我們的委員對這整個醫療體系的瞭解跟卓越的見解這就是我們今年會努力去做的方向那我們也一定努力讓我們明年不要再發生"},{"start":10192.811,"end":10212.772,"text":"那個急診太辛苦的一個情況分級醫療今天是一個大好的時機部長最後一個問題就是說之前卓院長有在這個這個巡打的時候有特別提到就是說三班互併比目前還是以獎勵為主那我想請教一下部長你的意見是怎樣"},{"start":10215.26,"end":10239.974,"text":"我想這個十二項政策是一直聯繫的政策啦那目前我如果站在醫療的立場那個當然就是希望說我護理人力能夠充足嘛充足我當然就希望讓他達到哪一個醫院長不希望達到負病比但是不能因為人力不足然後又要求到某些制度而讓床沒辦法開"},{"start":10241.475,"end":10260.634,"text":"我想這個部分的中間永遠一個政策是要他利弊得失共同坐下來談我們衛福部一定跟醫院來針對這個部分那當然要跟護理界一直來溝通那我相信至少我們在三班互變筆的努力之下我們在醫學中心已經從36%的"},{"start":10262.396,"end":10286.767,"text":"三班都達到的已經變成59%區議院從26%已經變成49%那在地區議院已經從83%達標三個都達到94%所以我們獎勵其實也是一個讓大家可以做得到的一個方向那將來當更成熟我們人力更多的時候我想就自然水到其層"},{"start":10287.607,"end":10313.441,"text":"好 謝謝 我們希望就是說不要再看到醫療機構可能整個病患可能就全部都塞在急診室我覺得這個是我們不希望看到的啦對 我們一定從整個醫療體系的改變 區域的防守或者是分級分流這個部分也要來努力好 謝謝委員的指教 謝謝"},{"start":10316.641,"end":10328.184,"text":"好謝謝黃秋帆委員那目前我們收到臨時提案共兩案那待會我們王振旭委員質詢之後我們來進行處理好那接下來請我們蘇欽前委員謝謝謝謝主席我請部長還有石署長好請我們邱部長跟石署長各位好好"},{"start":10347.743,"end":10368.455,"text":"我們一年看接近的人次到底多少我看到很多data有的是說總人口數的20%有的講40%到底是我都不曉得確實的一年急診的人次是多少這個有統計嗎"},{"start":10371.317,"end":10395.549,"text":"我們查一下好了那第二個這個急診的問題因為你我們署長是長很接近的嘛那市長也很接近的所以這個急診的問題事實上是從我們第八對立委的時候就一直凸顯出來所以不是現在才發生那為什麼今年會特別嚴重為什麼 署長"},{"start":10402.267,"end":10405.733,"text":"當然有很多的原因我們過去認為當然是不是"},{"start":10410.482,"end":10437.632,"text":"免疫負載以後的感染病比較多這當然是一部分那天氣的一個變化所以集中症的就是說中風心臟病或者慢性病的一個惡化這個也是其中之一那當然我們也了解到如果上上面的床數沒有足沒有夠的話當然上就上不去嘛那這個部分也會變成在急診後床方面的一個"},{"start":10439.11,"end":10443.961,"text":"一個問題會呈現出來我想都是原因我們都慢慢在預防、在檢討"},{"start":10447.478,"end":10476.187,"text":"那急診要做分級醫療要做什麼我覺得一直推都推不成功的有原因最主要是我們來看急診的病人我們分一二三四五級嘛是一級二級的最嚴重三級的沒通四級五級的可以等待那現在的問題是我們人口老化那小孩子又都在都會區那老人家都在鄉下比較多"},{"start":10477.148,"end":10504.277,"text":"那所以這些老人到急診他可能三幾個來但是他會好轉的稍微半但是會惡化的也一半所以連醫生也沒辦法掌握這個病人是會好轉還是惡化尤其像現在呼吸道感染如果又病在細菌感染又是病毒一個晚上就白掉了整個肺部我們在急診看到就是這樣"},{"start":10505.237,"end":10524.39,"text":"所以,你也不敢強制說哇,你剛才,你剛才急診,你剛才,你剛才問診,看,看,接受,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,"},{"start":10533.786,"end":10552.905,"text":"台灣會做這個分級醫療會做不成功很難成功這個就是最大的問題啦普頓你覺得怎麼樣我覺得稍微改變會很得意但是我們這個可以改善啦譬如說我們如果能夠"},{"start":10554.806,"end":10571.771,"text":"不要生小病,小病能夠馬上得到診斷就不會每次都已經到很嚴重才到急診所以我們現在的努力整個說實在的,健康台灣現在很重視從營養、運動、生活型態的一個改變大家比較健康"},{"start":10572.551,"end":10575.734,"text":"第二你第三要有一個全民的健康健全 各種服務 基層醫療大家來做要讓百合民眾來信任我們的基層診所 我想這個我們早期歷史公會歷史庭文審也對基層醫療非常的重視"},{"start":10591.011,"end":10615.576,"text":"跟加強這是一直大家在努力的民眾可以有信心我也不能強迫說民眾要有信心而是我們要提出我們可以做哪些事情讓民眾有信心他自然就不會跑去我比較心想也不要用硬性的讓民眾能夠有信心這不會是最重要的我們的家屬跟病人自己會選擇"},{"start":10617.296,"end":10630.004,"text":"自己會虛擬的分類他會怎麼樣他不敢去哪裡他會趕快跑大醫院跑大醫院是他最大的安心嘛所以去那邊擠去那邊塞你也安心"},{"start":10631.107,"end":10646.775,"text":"所以現在這撒不走,這也是公派處,也是好處啊你看日本做分子醫療,做得很好,做得下癮好,那就是出事了一個救護車撒的,一直撞,一直撞,沒人要收日本就是這樣,真的這樣啊所以,是不是日本這樣很好,我也不知道"},{"start":10652.145,"end":10663.043,"text":"所以藝人在那裡出事我講去就去就去那種case在民東就不會出事了不要說對去到我那裡我一口沒了就整起來了"},{"start":10664.127,"end":10687.649,"text":"真的生氣了急診室就在生啊所以跟大家報告我們台灣這個醫療的可敬性跟高水平又廣覆蓋當然問題一大堆大家從早上罵到現在但是我覺得我們就是那麼棒嘛我們就這麼好啊保定你這麼好啊署長你也這麼好啊大家拚到要死啊有限的資源做那麼多事我是覺得我要跟你們肯定啦"},{"start":10689.191,"end":10705.545,"text":"事實上真的大家都盡心盡力講一些情緒話有什麼了不起呢大家有沒有情緒所以我覺得這個都可以理解大家要同理心這個問題也從馬英九時代到蔡英文時代到現在"},{"start":10706.946,"end":10724.318,"text":"都一樣啊但是現在如果可以更改善當然是更好啦所以我們大家不要講意識形態啦這個醫療跟意識形態一點關係都沒有啦所以普通你會看得出來再來就是那個福利的大家現在站一腳就三十幾萬人在線上的才十幾萬人"},{"start":10728.598,"end":10743.45,"text":"有一大堆是回家帶小孩照顧公婆他是可以出來做part-time的耶那這一塊剛剛你有講到說可以把它recall回來這在美國就很多啦美國就很多就是"},{"start":10744.531,"end":10767.813,"text":"他你這樣做全職他沒辦法但是這些人他們就組一個公司也好啦一個是合作社也好啊你就apply他就來給他part-time來做三點鐘四點鐘這在美國很平常的啊我們這可以這塊這一塊真的要好好的來應用啦不然這些人就是人力浪費啊柏中你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":10769.413,"end":10787.42,"text":"我們在12項的婦理人力裡面第10項就是多元化彈性婦理制止職業那國防會也對這一點也要做一點幫助這真的像我們太太過去後都很高興現在孩子比較不想參與他就開始恢復去樂團拉琴並不參與就對了"},{"start":10794.482,"end":10814.357,"text":"所以但是他能夠這些回流到護理在化為他過去的護理的專業我覺得是一個很珍貴我跟部長報告我們屏東縣的衛生所的護理人員退休我們都趁回來做什麼做長照、做照覆"},{"start":10815.958,"end":10842.609,"text":"他65歲,我60歲拿下來身強體壯,你讓他去拉琴他也沒有婦理啦,他也沒有婦理啦這就沒意義啦所以,這些人就回來了衛生所的主任65歲退休,我就把他請回來當公衛做什麼幾乎只要來,我就拼所以我要拼到我們的衛生所主任退休下來我現在已經解決了,很好啊"},{"start":10844.91,"end":10863.235,"text":"有的到七八十歲還很強啊所以現在的人沒有退休年齡嘛所以這個都是人力的運用啦這個我們會努力的這個你們都沒有看到好那最後一分鐘給我我要講一下我們自己的事情"},{"start":10864.575,"end":10888.135,"text":"這個要感謝 因為我們從去年我們安排法人會休署還在往後抬頭頭頭傷亡慘重那我們從去年10月3號到現在我今天是第二次發生我從來不講話的那都默默的在做該怎麼樣"},{"start":10890.287,"end":10912.452,"text":"民事的補償、賠償都在完善那所有的轉出去的病人回來只要跟我們要求我全部都給他給我我沒說過話從來沒有在媒體上講過任何一句負面的話我們都一直在做我們10月3號輝學署訪台10月4號我們就在做緊急診療館"},{"start":10917.933,"end":10928.47,"text":"我們是醫護人員這麼拼然後我們的護理人員從辦這六個多月來離職的不到四個"},{"start":10929.707,"end":10951.937,"text":"不到10個我沒有給他輔導到法人其他的長照什麼其他或潮州安泰等等我們是盡心盡現在有好戶價的那這些偏鄉的醫護人員當然是我們要保護啊我們是袋子袋心請他休假等等或者是平常沒有休假的全部給他補休"},{"start":10952.937,"end":10970.005,"text":"做到非常非常完善那我們也很認真在做很感謝我們衛福部我們醫事師我們健保署還有我們屏東縣政府都給我們一直的幫忙輔導所以我在這邊要跟大家致謝那我們希望"},{"start":10971.326,"end":10985.531,"text":"我們的員工能夠呵護他們鼓勵他們讓他們那邊繼續來替我們的屏南地區重度責任醫院我們的角色我們是努力在扮演那昨天"},{"start":10986.972,"end":11012.462,"text":"我們在這邊投票醫事師 醫策會還是做重症的考核我也很感謝所以在這裡補充再次的致謝希望大家一起來跟我們的員工跟我們的醫護人員大家一起呵護 一起鼓勵不要不要沒有意義啦我從來不講過一句負面的話所以我在這裡要跟"},{"start":11013.382,"end":11041.312,"text":"部長在一次的報告那我們你看我們這個這個上一張這個排碼排案榜我不曉得要怎麼排的啦這個是newsweek他們排的我們屏東縣還是我們安泰的員工的努力我們是台灣排32名的耶這不是我白說的啦 屏東我只有這間而已所以不要亂說啦也不要亂說啦我是覺得大家一起來啦感謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":11042.92,"end":11049.664,"text":"好 謝謝委員 謝謝趙委好 謝謝我們蘇青前委員我們請我們下一位 我們王振旭委員好 非常感謝主席我們就請邱部長好 請邱部長"},{"start":11072.523,"end":11093.164,"text":"委員好部長好剛剛聽了我們召委一席話把你驚喜啦因為的確得到這個榮譽是不容易而且經過一次這麼大的一個事件能夠趕快站起來持續服務當地的民眾應該是當務之急啦別再怕命"},{"start":11093.891,"end":11107.507,"text":"那今天的主題其實是真的很重要因為這是目前讓所有民眾感受到他在這個接近醫療面面要改革自己這個身體健康疾病照顧的問題那"},{"start":11109.81,"end":11129.364,"text":"所以還是能夠透過這個機會請部長再來多一些說明包括在3月3號部長也針對於這個醫院造成這個庸篩還有護理同仁離職的一些部分做相關的說明包括就有"},{"start":11132.106,"end":11159.945,"text":"這個三短兩長的措施跟計畫來應應這樣的急診就診人次就開始慢慢趨緩後來才是三短兩長不是三長兩短所以能夠把事情做得更順利一點那這個部分我們也了解這個你的三短裡面是包括三項這個大家已經都討論過很多次了很多內容今天都已經很了解"},{"start":11160.385,"end":11177.482,"text":"那中長期的部分剛剛也有很多委員就叫了這個部長有關護理人力還有這個健保支付標準等等不過還是要請部長或者是相關同仁再度的確認一下"},{"start":11178.363,"end":11205.032,"text":"這些原因到底哪一個是最重要的哪一個是次要的哪一些是相關的因為我們知道做研究的話透過很多因素或者是一些數據的分析才有辦法去找出最重要跟其他相關的因子你這樣未來在做改善的時候才能夠真的有辦法針對一些因素做改善"},{"start":11205.712,"end":11234.285,"text":"所以 嗯 部長這訪問 你看 要怎麼分析早有機會找出這個最重要的相關因子或者是最重要的因素來做未來改善的一個基礎好 是的 呃 我想它的原因應該是剛剛委員所列出來的這些都有可能是有相關的因素那是不是在當然啦 我們如果在研究當然有設定的可能"},{"start":11237.32,"end":11251.338,"text":"有意義的影響因子或者是有影響因子但是他不到達統計書記當然是在研究的領域但是只要有可能影響的我們都會抓出來來分析來處理包括這裡應該要多一個"},{"start":11252.68,"end":11275.718,"text":"那個分級醫療是不是沒有落實這樣子那護理人力不足當然是我想是大家公認的啦因為如果能夠床數開得更多一點的話是不是可以減緩那當然門診一約住院床位的分配失衡"},{"start":11276.587,"end":11295.696,"text":"這個就要看醫院的屬性了啦像我譬如說我去跟台大醫院的大家高層朋友談的時候他說他們的內科主任說我的門診也都很嚴重啊我不是說趁差就給他去斷癮啊"},{"start":11296.756,"end":11299.56,"text":"這也是要讓你做參考啦我意思是說 但是這個有在打扮這個有在處理 可利用的床位不足這個部分"},{"start":11309.977,"end":11337.062,"text":"當然包括說我們是不是好好的應用那我們原來是希望院長去處理那昨天我們跟醫療工會我們敬佩他們提出從護理基層的角度來提出一個指引我覺得站在專業的角度上我們非常重視也跟他們取得共識要研究把這個指引就是說你怎麼讓病人的床可以更加靈活我們要聽護理界的指引"},{"start":11339.042,"end":11355.696,"text":"另外當然是Infection這個感染這個部分我想在這個孤單期間都會比較有啦所以這些都是原因而且都是要去改善能預防的就預防能解決的就一步一步來解決"},{"start":11356.513,"end":11367.183,"text":"好因為我們也知道在短期有時候沒有辦法抓到那麼多的數據的話這個我們應該來分析數據啦我覺得有幾種的他們來的一個型態我們再來分析一下對所以其實我們是很建議啦針對於"},{"start":11378.052,"end":11392.422,"text":"剛剛的那些問題然後特別去分析我們所列舉出來的不管是造成這個擁塞的疾病類型醫院的層級還有在聽您早上的報告裡面也有備案嘛這備案是怎樣這一次"},{"start":11394.823,"end":11415.184,"text":"發揮不了它的作用以前好像都可以透過備案ABC來解決在過年期間這個狀況今年是發生什麼問題沒有辦法讓備案發生那個效果這個就麻煩到說在一個月左右一個月內可不可以讓我們知道我們徹底來分析再跟委員報告"},{"start":11417.446,"end":11439.105,"text":"OK好拜託一下因為這個是對於未來的這個改善應該是我們一定要徹底改善是那另外針對於這個護理人力跟薪資跟流財的部分剛剛也討論了非常多那不知道蔡市長有沒有注意到有這一則公會提供給會員們"},{"start":11441.167,"end":11467.377,"text":"他們如何在目前的離職草裡面早上剛剛有很多委員說要擺這一點點以上才能夠有機會去跟主管討論離職的部分那這個我們也相信工會是為了他的會員希望能夠針對於一些做法提供一些參考包括說怎麼樣禁書離職的一些好方法或者是適當的方式等等"},{"start":11467.797,"end":11489.404,"text":"他也提醒在這個過程裡面要注意哪一些的事情包括說如果是想要免排隊就要離職的話是可以怎麼做不過這個是基本上是根據這個勞動基準法第14條的一些處理模式因為他有規定勞工的不經過預告終止契約因為我們知道"},{"start":11490.564,"end":11517.929,"text":"在這個勞動企業裡面都會宰明說如果要離職的話應該要經過什麼樣的程序嗎博文市長有沒有掌握到相關的信息有有有這個就是工會的這個網頁或是說現在各個工會因為他們要護理人員要異動都要到工會裡面去辦理這個這個不管是進來或是離開或是異動都要辦理那我們跟"},{"start":11519.245,"end":11546.715,"text":"這個都同步在這個資訊的取得資訊的了解掌握上我們都知道委員剛才提的這個我們也知道有有這樣的一個訊息不過目前如果說有一些同仁是透過這個方式離職的話其實他必須要透過掌握這個固執違法事證才能夠達到這個做法的一個基本要求"},{"start":11547.475,"end":11563.614,"text":"所以假設真的是這樣做而且人數越來越明顯的話可能也要提醒大家有關於勞工的院方的應變還有在這個造成的一些影響這個都要麻煩市長或者是部長這邊要多多留意"},{"start":11564.531,"end":11587.901,"text":"我們一定不斷的改善護理的跟醫院來合作啦不斷改善我們醫護的待遇跟醫療的環境那當然那個只要他們在勞基法之下我們都尊重嘛但是我們努力的是能夠留任把那種環境待遇能夠盡量的做好"},{"start":11589.021,"end":11617.5,"text":"能夠來留任留任更多的護理人力能夠在職場我們共同來照顧病人這是我們的最重要的努力目標因為如果透過這個方法造成離職的話其實對於這位護理同仁來講他很難再回到職場因為這個是一個不愉快過程的話造成影響其實是會蠻影響力會蠻強的所以針對這個改善計畫裡面我們提了一些建議提供給市長跟部長這邊參考"},{"start":11618.781,"end":11644.528,"text":"就是真的要督導各個醫院要遵守勞動法令跟勞動契約那這個過程必須要真的要去重視他的心聲啦要有好的協商平台跟管道那當然很多資訊需要持續的公開透明才能夠讓他們瞭解也避免誤解跟正義這部分也麻煩所以非常好的建議我們一定要醫院來落實是好 再來"},{"start":11648.477,"end":11665.165,"text":"來往下還有一個小議題那麻煩我們這個食藥署江署長因為最近也在討論這個事後必應藥到底要不要從處方用藥轉到指示用藥"},{"start":11667.446,"end":11687.017,"text":"可能可以跟其他國家有一些使用上的符合不過也有很多的團體很擔心這樣的調整會造成哪些的影響所以不知道最近所開會裡面有沒有去掌握到目前這個藥物的使用狀況還有有沒有相關的健康風險的評估"},{"start":11688.698,"end":11713.149,"text":"那當然現在還很難馬上就做了確定或決定不過如果真的開放以後那造成影響可能需要去面臨的衝擊那有沒有辦法去做好健康最終或者是實名制的可能性那這部分不知道署長有沒有一些現在的一些想法或者是未來的做法提供給大家做參考是的"},{"start":11715.117,"end":11738.87,"text":"謝謝委員的提問這都非常關鍵的問題我們在上個禮拜四我們召集了111號人民團體其實有兩位學生以及相關的法規的提到了一個很重要的關鍵那目前我們看到所有的所謂指示用藥的轉類這個過程當中我們有一定的標準那陳委員在現場也非常非常關心"},{"start":11739.89,"end":11762.983,"text":"我們針對這個議題之後藥界藥師公會裡面也提出他們的想法也覺得說很多的承諾我們覺得非常非常的有準備醫界的部分也有提到他們有一點擔心家長團體裡面特別有一位家長團體他本身對於所謂子宮內膜癌跟乳癌在臨床上面看到的一些些擔心"},{"start":11764.164,"end":11785.537,"text":"加上學生團體裡面他特別針對他受到的教育跟配套他也覺得說希望我們能夠精進那此外呢各個國家裡面我們鄰近的日本其實也進入了所謂研議這個階段所以我們調處整個的一個過程當中我們覺得很重要的調和蠻重要的我們的經驗是需要去確認的"},{"start":11786.678,"end":11812.954,"text":"那大家擔心的這一塊我覺得是可以有一個很重要的區域聯防的概念所以我們馬上有責成我們我們藥品組這邊思考如何去做台灣特殊的經驗跟調處各方能夠得到一個最適切的一個方案那目前持續在積極在研擬當中所以我想在不久的將來我想我們的經驗是會讓大家看到我們的處理是最圓滿的以上"},{"start":11814.215,"end":11830.666,"text":"好 非常謝謝署長的說明因為我們看最後一張發動片知道說的確用藥安全還有身體自主權如何達到是需要大家共同來努力好 謝謝署長也謝謝署長 謝謝謝謝王偉 謝謝部長 署長好 我們接續處理臨時提案總共有兩案好 現在宣讀"},{"start":11842.162,"end":11865.911,"text":"第一案要求衛生福利部針對此次醫院評鑑向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告內容包括但不限於一本次醫學中心評鑑標準及新增醫學中心的具體理由以及該醫院升格後對高頻地區醫療資源分配的影響評估二本次評定程序中各醫院的成績排序"},{"start":11866.391,"end":11886.949,"text":"及核定結果三 內部簽核制部長之相關決策文件包含各單位會簽意見四 本次評定結果與既定評鑒標準不符之原因以及後續如何確保評鑒機制符合既定行政規則提案人委員 陳昭芝 王育敏 邱振軍第二案"},{"start":11888.07,"end":11906.78,"text":"衛福部因限期於三個月內已將CIDP納入罕見疾病或列入重大傷病之前提完成檢討與規劃作業事後並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝蘇清泉邱振軍宣讀完畢好現在第一案請問行政單位有沒有意見"},{"start":11917.12,"end":11917.742,"text":"第2位"},{"start":11928.507,"end":11948.942,"text":"這個提案就是關於醫院評鑑因為最近我們遇到很多問題其實都是原始於這個你要落實分流就會談到分級醫療談到分級醫療就會回到醫院評鑑那醫院評鑑部分就是說今年以及113年度有一個醫院評鑑及教學醫院評鑑作業程序有規定高評區的醫學中心評定上限是三家"},{"start":11950.023,"end":11971.158,"text":"但是你的評鑑結果是跑出4家啦所以是不然你就是違反你自己的規定門檻這也不是我規定的結果你就違反但是我們都只看到每一次都只看到結果那當然你們有一些作業程序就是評定加數超過的時候當然會根據幾個指標包括醫院評鑑教學結果啦或是醫學中心任務等等有一個百分比"},{"start":11971.778,"end":11996.653,"text":"然後把根據這個成績的高低去排序擇優但是我們一直都沒有看到這個一個整個決策的這個過程或是相當的一個合理的透明度我們只看到不斷的增加去年一口氣增加三家醫學中心你現在才剛剛寫清楚說上限三家現在變四家那我必須說醫學中心涉及大量的公共"},{"start":11997.313,"end":12026.873,"text":"投資資源的投資應該符合確保這個區域的醫療規劃跟醫療的公平性不要造成說資源過度集中或是其他地區的醫院他們的競爭力壓力是非常大因為涉及這個重大公共利益所以監察院有提出糾正函但是好像你們都沒有去重視這件事情是為了確保這個行政透明決策合理性我們才要求說是不是要針對醫院平靜再次出現違規啦跟你們自己的規定不符"},{"start":12027.674,"end":12036.984,"text":"我先不要談我的見解跟你們自己的規定不符的一個結果所以我希望能夠做一個專案報告包括準次醫學中心的評鑑標準新增這個具體理由以及該院升格後對高頻地區醫療資源分配的影響"},{"start":12043.311,"end":12061.637,"text":"那剛剛我們有跟各位溝通啦第二個就是說本次評定當中成績的排選核算結果我們同意不要有這個identity就是我們並不需要是哪一家醫院我們希望知道就是說到底你們面對的原始的評分結果你們是怎麼去要去處理的那當然我們是希望看到說這個最後的決策那剛剛是有溝通說"},{"start":12065.998,"end":12084.042,"text":"那如果這個第三項不要的話 部長你自己要承擔喔就是你做冠軍 大家都送你到陸地 讓你去做冠軍這次本次評定結果與既定標準不符合的原因 為什麼不符合你才自己規定三家為上限 現在又跑出一家了那以後後續如何確保這個能夠符合這個行政規則"},{"start":12088.143,"end":12090.744,"text":"我的重點是現在醫療在喊緊急護理人員不夠然後人擁塞你一方面喊分級醫療一方面這個醫學中心又在網上說我看不下去好像兩手策略一方面還鼓勵大醫院一直出要蓋醫院還有1萬1千床等著增加那個擴建"},{"start":12108.451,"end":12119.74,"text":"一方面又說分級醫療所以這是一個很矛盾的所以我就我的專業理解就是才提出這樣的臨時提案請大家支持也請衛福部能夠做一個回應好嗎謝謝好我想所有的努力都是要讓人民得到最好的照顧我們都知道南北醫療資源的"},{"start":12139.042,"end":12159.189,"text":"的不平衡那剛剛蘇昭偉提出他們那邊的混鬥所以這個是很艱難的一個課題那我也了解到昭之委員我們長期幾十年來的混鬥共同對分級醫療我也知道你長期對醫學中心的增設"},{"start":12160.639,"end":12182.929,"text":"如果沒有處理好是對醫療體系不好的我完全了解所以我們現在也在做醫院評鑑的改革目前一直在改革改革的部分當然第一個會把說第一個醫學中心有升有降好的留下來 不好的"},{"start":12183.849,"end":12213.138,"text":"就是降級這個在醫院平線改革裡面的第一重點是在這個地方第二個可能要考慮到地區的遼闊性如果你都集中在一個地方可能真的不適合那時候你這樣在那邊嘛但是你如果說土地遼闊有些人口他就永遠不可能兩百萬可是他就需要有一個"},{"start":12214.144,"end":12241.994,"text":"更堅強的一個堡壘來保衛我們人民的健康所以這個部分在兩百萬這個部分可能也會在改革裡面做處理那至於說我同樣一樣跟周志瑋一樣在北部如果太多醫學中心真的會變成南北不平衡那要讓他南北不平衡以及說未來的醫學中心有升有降當中"},{"start":12243.444,"end":12267.525,"text":"我們必須要做一件事情先讓他南北平衡那這是一個概念第二個概念就是說所以我完全知道這個我必須要面對陳昭之委員我的幾十年來的老戰友的挑戰所以但是這個就是很痛苦也是很天人交戰但是又必須要為人民來努力的一個努力"},{"start":12271.346,"end":12298.107,"text":"當然所有的決策我必須要負全部的責任我想我先講清楚我願意承擔所有的責任但是我是給我機會來講這整個決策的一個過程甚至我們的努力可以改變未來整個台灣的醫療體系那有關於南部當然永遠都是那三家嘛各位要知道今天醫學中心要再保持醫學中心是比較容易"},{"start":12299.662,"end":12317.074,"text":"準醫學中心或區醫院要晉升到醫學中心他是很辛苦的為什麼 他要付出醫學中心的人力跟設備而且要達到評鑑而且可能剛開始你只得到準醫學中心"},{"start":12318.137,"end":12329.136,"text":"那我們知道南部這一家有一家準理解中心他七年的準理解中心他的服務包括了屏東包括了高雄的山區"},{"start":12330.755,"end":12354.107,"text":"如果你要送人口去算永遠永遠不可能讓他已經投入那麼多的而且就是為什麼要投入那麼多就是人民的需要所以他必須要用到醫水中心的標準來服務民眾他也願意到偏鄉主席我可以跟他對話嗎沒關係我可以就是說我可以直接對話嗎沒有問題"},{"start":12356.958,"end":12373.766,"text":"你如果覺得說你們在做這個院作業程序的時候你認為人們高可能還需要在一家中心的話那你為什麼在作業程序113年度的你還要訂上限是三家我現在是針對你這樣規定,你自己沒有違規,你是違規嘛你的需求我聽得懂啊我們那個醫學中心四檔再放一邊"},{"start":12382.547,"end":12390.091,"text":"你馬上就犯規啊那是說規定我們要站在人民的需求還有南部幾乎所有的立委站在人民的立場有一個呼籲 強烈的呼籲也在我們這裡執行 我們不能不回應"},{"start":12405.157,"end":12427.575,"text":"所以這是規定,你只要鼓勵不是你意思是說你這個規定聽聽看參考用啦因為我今天沒有談大方向人民的需求勝過我們一般可以行政的規定如果這個有違反規定我願意負全責但是我必須要說明我必須要考慮到如果你今天要讓"},{"start":12428.656,"end":12444.763,"text":"在四年後再去評估一次那我覺得對於南北的平衡是不平衡的減緩北部增加幾家的最好的方式就是讓南部加強"},{"start":12446.358,"end":12471.055,"text":"按照人口需求這個大家都知道非常合理然後你說醫學中醫要付出代價我們同意可是你沒有講另外一面醫學東西也是很好的他的給付成績越高他的給付越多他可以買更多的他有溢價能力更強買醫材買藥品民眾也都要去因為大家在鼓勵你們都一直鼓勵蓋大醫院你都讓他們覺得醫中好棒棒就是很棒"},{"start":12473.677,"end":12496.393,"text":"如果今天發生在別人的身上我不敢講今天發生在我邱某人的立上各位你也知道我是最強調分級醫療我最強調基層醫療我不可能去要去加強醫學中心的一個量數但是因為問題是民眾的需要那他到底 我們都評估喔他到底對於財務的衝擊"},{"start":12499.975,"end":12524.555,"text":"在當地的高評區是只有到達0.01%那你要檢討的是醫療網的原始計畫如果你覺得兩百萬不行不要讓它擱在那裡健保法有多少條法擱在那邊然後都不動那你這樣永遠讓我們再給你法委員你會了解也一直在我希望委員能夠諒解到說這個南北平衡的如果你不在現在出生我四年後再去做"},{"start":12525.746,"end":12544.351,"text":"人民的健康不能等死耶南部的民眾要照顧但是你北北已經破了嘛他七百多萬七百多萬人已經有十家但是我們現在有一個規定我們現在就是說下一次的評審真的嗎就是有升有降這是堅定的原則上一次說要降的都沒降啊一下子升三家"},{"start":12545.305,"end":12562.056,"text":"沒有啊 上次是聲浪那個 老實講我跟這個南部任何醫學中心我都沒有任何關係我希望能夠做個報告因為醫院評鑑關係現在的整個氛圍嘛整個醫療的氛圍大家都回到分級醫療那分級醫療就是怎麼來的就是當初有評鑑嘛有評鑑"},{"start":12573.963,"end":12590.154,"text":"準醫學中心切單給他做醫學中心有一個好處啦真的就是他真的就是看集中症了因為他的過後會比較多他會減少一些一些可能輕重病的病人那可以 會幫忙我們給他給他開區域"},{"start":12594.156,"end":12598.12,"text":"好好把你這個強要做的檢討我們可以把這些報告跟你報告沒關係啊我非常願意做報告因為這個是我們共同的理念因為它不是單純業力它造成的影響的after effect後面的作用影響"},{"start":12609.411,"end":12627.684,"text":"是非常大的我們沒有因為只要南北平衡那只要分級醫療你現在讓民眾覺得只有大醫院能夠照顧我像中部中部的幾個醫院也真的非常的努力喔台大營養訓練也是品質非常高大林慈濟醫院還有佳積這幾個都是非常的努力但是問題是說它因為不一樣的是說"},{"start":12634.31,"end":12649.787,"text":"因為南部那一家也有7年的準你也要建保的問題我們都還在爐你知道上次那個多因為一家這樣準那就沒有讓他降了變成就三家那等於額外增加兩家那個建保署當時評估就多1億多點"},{"start":12651.289,"end":12675.284,"text":"就是說這個財務評估其實還是在的喔那個可以請時事長來報告一下這樣的一個南部高評這樣多加的影響財務評估我是覺得那個是一個更大的議題啦我們在討論預算的部分可以討論但是今天是不是說我是沒有麻煩到時事長是因為今天您實際上就是說就針對今年嘛你剛剛才公佈的東西你馬上就沒有遵守"},{"start":12676.961,"end":12696.688,"text":"我們不知道發生什麼事情我們每天在這邊努力就是希望譬如說護理人力不足我們就馬上想盡辦法去調整法利用調整獎勵措施我們為什麼不能對人民的健康對南北的資源的努力隨時來努力隨時來調整難道我要等四年嗎"},{"start":12698.448,"end":12711.754,"text":"我就是因為這次的急者擁塞反映了單期醫療的問題嘛這個我們大家每一天每一天在爭取人民的權益是不能等的如果我再等四年啊這個這個這個他這樣閒閒在那裡"},{"start":12718.551,"end":12737.273,"text":"閒在那一邊對不對閒在那一邊他上上不下也不好讓他好好的去發揮他現在有的角色那也可以平衡藍北我瞭解啦我們的討論因為林存文他們也是要評鑑啦所以說基本上那我這個臨時提案的部分就是說我在跟"},{"start":12738.929,"end":12766.385,"text":"在這邊做一個確認除了第三項之外其他我都希望給予保留就是在專案的報告裡面有包含這些內容第一個我還是拜託那個委員不要在裡面提到違法或者是怎麼樣那個太傷感情了我已經被你在立法院的議事錄裡面違規啦違規啦 留下很多違規違規啦你們自己規定我拜託你給我修改好像沒有給我改"},{"start":12767.546,"end":12776.396,"text":"我過去在立法院8年,得了多少次的優良立委,結果你的資訊稿都把我寫得我不是違法,違什麼樣,情何以堪?因為我真的是站在人們的立場,所以這個部分我看你今天也讓你支持著,也要湊頭"},{"start":12788.19,"end":12792.552,"text":"我的法案啊,還有綠營的朋友啊,是啊我這麼認真,都專業所以你剛才講什麼,不要說違法不違法啦因為不要耽誤別的立委的時間"},{"start":12806.429,"end":12826.923,"text":"為什麼的一個增加的理由我可以具體來寫沒問題好不好那以及說深合回修對高頻DC資源的影響這個OK然後評定程序的我們不要耽誤別的委員的執行時間就那個大原則是往這個方向走"},{"start":12828.726,"end":12851.112,"text":"不過因為你如果要通過按我變成就是要按照這樣來剛剛有跟市長有開始做溝通的啦因為我們召委已經站起來,我們想說要把時間還是要留給其他委員要處理啦,就是要處理這件事,但是文字我們覺得可以做修正啦,我們可以再討論再討論一下,我不會馬上離開我再跟委員討論一下好了"},{"start":12864.575,"end":12875.283,"text":"第一案先保留由劉市長再去跟他溝通一下那第一案我們趕快處理第一案行政單位有沒有意見這個跟"},{"start":12881.044,"end":12898.314,"text":"已經跟委員溝通完畢會協助提出沒有意見會申請列入那罕病審議三個月內就辦理情況提交書面報告又照這個修訂這個好像有改文字要不要唸一下要唸一下"},{"start":12905.16,"end":12928.073,"text":"有關文字修改的部分有盡於衛生福利部本應積極發揮我國罹患慢性炎症拖隨竅性多發性神經病變CIDP近500人患者於加強照顧與醫治和協助取得適用藥物等應盡之職責是以考量當前對CIDP尚未列入罕見疾病"},{"start":12929.656,"end":12948.328,"text":"原決議衛生福利部應協助提供收治病人醫療機構或病友團體有關列入罕見疾病之申請審查程序事後並於三個月內向本委員會提交書面報告以上陳委員有沒有意見"},{"start":12953.247,"end":12975.003,"text":"那第二案就照修正後通過那第一案先保留我們現在請林淑溫委員質詢8加4分鐘謝謝主席我們是不是請邱部長"},{"start":12981.26,"end":13008.397,"text":"委員好部長好今天大家談了很多這個急診泳塞和護理人力的問題但我今天還是要繼續講這個大家都在談說這個病房護病比的限制護理人力的不足導致醫院這個關病房然後急診的住院帶床病人滯留狀況加劇那上次我也就教你就是說光是減傷第一級的"},{"start":13008.897,"end":13035.04,"text":"他的平均的流治的時間都超過標準時間8小時的還要到雙倍以上那我現在就請你看一個圖到底我們這個護理人力你對於平均媒體報導這個護理人力平均年齡39歲資深護理師留任建校你們自己是這樣講留任建校你是怎麼看待這個資訊的"},{"start":13038.615,"end":13055.188,"text":"我是請那個市長先回答一下我是叫你看安安就是這樣講你自己發布的新聞你們自己的這個你自己都沒看過嗎就是說這個2024因為這個時候我還沒上任所以我要仔細看一下這樣子"},{"start":13056.872,"end":13074.079,"text":"不是啊這是前幾天5月去年5月13號的新聞你還沒上任好那你知道這個議題也應該要了解一下吧因為我當然是希望護理師生能夠留任不是啦現在從一路早上大家問你都覺得說"},{"start":13076.12,"end":13092.994,"text":"離職的雖然很多但你們12項政策要求穩定而且已經有見效增加的人力其實都是增加的雖然有離職的但你們剛才司長一直在講說人力普遍上還是增加的從你們的職登統計都看得出來那你們現在看出來數據我告訴你2021年護理師職業的這個平均年齡是36.95歲2024年是39.25歲"},{"start":13104.824,"end":13126.378,"text":"那我就這樣子問你就好了 就這件事情啦職業的平均年齡越來越增加 你怎麼看待這一件事情平均職業年齡提高啊你怎麼看啊這可能要從兩個角度嘛"},{"start":13128.993,"end":13147.861,"text":"因為當初去年你們認為這個是肯定把資深的留下來從這個角度來看也許是好事情那是不是說年輕的留不住也是一件事情這個可能要來看評但我們也很好奇為什麼年輕的因為我們開設多元的人才人力的培養"},{"start":13148.681,"end":13171.647,"text":"包括學士後的護理系有持續的開設而且包括護理師的考試從一年兩次變成一年三次但我們的平均職業年齡卻節節攀升那你講的你也講了就是說啊這個留不住年輕的專業的護理人力那你知道部長你知道2012年台灣護理人員平均職業年齡是幾歲嗎2012年"},{"start":13178.909,"end":13185.121,"text":"2012年啦 你猜猜看 你用猜的啦你們沒數據啦 你用猜的 你猜猜看好 那多少歲"},{"start":13186.533,"end":13190.474,"text":"被你偷看到了2012年29.6歲2024年39.25歲當時2012年2012年離現在並沒有很久你們專案報告是說平均年齡29歲而且21到30歲族群最多佔了43.6%"},{"start":13213.982,"end":13235.53,"text":"43.6%都是30歲以下的護理人力而現在30歲以下護理人力可能是低得不像樣那你對這個數字其實你都沒有掌握我剛剛問你 你也搞不清楚到底我們要肯定平均年齡39歲是留任成功還是說我們要擔心"},{"start":13236.77,"end":13247.313,"text":"如果2012年平均年齡29歲2024年平均39歲如果照這個邏輯到2036年平均職業年齡會不會變成49歲有沒有可能是這樣子39歲留任都還留任成功我們很感謝這些資深的護理師扛起了這個責任可是呢我擔心的當然是年輕的職群沒有進來"},{"start":13262.065,"end":13283.96,"text":"年輕的族群沒進來可是我們的養成班開很多啊我們現在要問的是說剛剛已經有委員講了到澳洲年薪170萬到美國300萬起跳但都還要扣掉生活費那如果在這裡的待遇和工時能夠改善的話大家都知道說大家如果可以留在自己的家鄉誰願意遠離故鄉呢"},{"start":13287.802,"end":13309.811,"text":"不是了解而已你們的開源人數理論上是增加的取得證照的人數也越來越多可是我們平均職業年齡卻越來越高這是不合理的這種狀況裡面畢業生不來心血留不住資深扛起來然後病房關床急診永設一環扣一環"},{"start":13312.124,"end":13318.586,"text":"這些畢業生留到外國去難道台灣是要幫變成一個國際護理師的執訓中心嗎台灣護理人才的養成是要幫國際的護理人員變成後備養成中心嗎"},{"start":13329.298,"end":13354.71,"text":"我們很希望我們培養出來的都能夠留在國內因為國內還是需要這些人才我們想盡辦法把它留在國內所以我們現在是政策規劃是有問題還是政策規劃不利還是執行面有問題所以在這種狀況裡面不要動不動就覺得說你們市長剛剛講說我們人數是增加的人數增加都資深的年輕的優秀的沒有心血進來"},{"start":13356.011,"end":13366.669,"text":"所以你的KPI應該是護理人員回流多少病床開床率是多少而不是在這裡說你有增加可是結果病床關的越多急診越湧射"},{"start":13368.311,"end":13378.12,"text":"現在護理人員講啊 如果是醫生或醫院跟你們反映問題 你們都馬上回應有所回應 護理人力跟你們反映問題 護理工會跟你們反映問題你們毫無感覺 只好護理人員用集體離職來跟你們做無聲的抗議"},{"start":13389.267,"end":13417.448,"text":"現在是人家反映了你們對於護理人員跟對於醫師跟對醫院他們講話的份量不一樣啊份量不一樣只好用離職來告訴你他抗議這是大問題捏對不對要怎麼走要怎麼走你的12項政策政策工具現在好像也是留住資深的而已資深的而已"},{"start":13418.581,"end":13439.133,"text":"我們很希望因為一進來他工作是不是滿意新手啦 新手其實是非常重要的所以我們有這個護理新手的臨床導師我希望半年後你還告訴我你十二項政策讓年輕的護理師願意留下來為台灣的病患服務"},{"start":13442.578,"end":13456.376,"text":"半年後我會再問你喔就不要再講半年前我問你的這個醫院有公安危機的你還沒告訴我還沒回答我喔當然我今天還有更重要的要問你就是因為有這個問題以外還有"},{"start":13459.019,"end":13486.746,"text":"今年實施的醫院個別總額制的問題在第二季要上路了醫院個別總額制的問題啊你們有一個很有效的打擊醫療人球的策略和方案那你有很有效的羅伯漢棒子你知道總額健保總額增加了700多億醫院增加了300多億吧至少醫院拿走了一半以上吧"},{"start":13488.287,"end":13488.347,"text":"那 醫院"},{"start":13490.481,"end":13514.86,"text":"拿多了幾百億的錢出來可是醫院卻這樣子急診永設然後現在關病床這已經是夠荒謬 夠好笑了我今年要給你三四百億結果關了病床更多結果急診更永設然後你說你有一個醫療人球的這個應對的這個策略這樣子那我現在問你就是說啊你有沒有盤點到"},{"start":13521.339,"end":13523.805,"text":"這個未來醫院個別總額制醫療現場會面臨哪一些衝擊"},{"start":13530.011,"end":13551.148,"text":"阿你又有什麼因應的策略我可不可以分兩段來報告一下因為我們所有今年的預算都還沒有set down所以還沒有開始來來能夠去落實各種不管是醫院基層相關包括這個年負病比的獎金現在都還沒有開始來發我想希望能夠"},{"start":13552.61,"end":13557.473,"text":"預算會計都能夠趕快做完你現在是在說個別醫院總額我們當然知道個別醫院總額是這樣子在台北區也是第二劑才會開始台北區現在所發生的醫院用色的問題"},{"start":13574.352,"end":13579.455,"text":"當然應該是還沒有我沒有在問你這個我現在問你是說那個別醫院總額的話我們當然你這樣子實施這個醫院個別總額制實行下去以後醫療現場會發生什麼樣的變化那看病的民眾會受到什麼衝擊我現在是在問這個啊了解"},{"start":13594.162,"end":13600.544,"text":"我是站在病人和人民的立場在問這個我想這個也不是說突然要去做不是啦會有什麼衝擊你怎麼講不出來沒關係我沒有管你我沒有突然而且我也不見得說認為這樣子是錯的我不認為這樣子就一定是不行的"},{"start":13613.467,"end":13632.981,"text":"但我現在問你是說有可能面臨到看病的人會受到的衝擊是什麼你來告訴我因為你告訴我了所以你才有想說你的因應策略是什麼那證明你每一個政策新的政策的施行都是有評估有步驟而且到最後的衝擊你們也有因應的策略的我是要看到這個過程啊所以我現在問你"},{"start":13640.545,"end":13642.868,"text":"這樣子新的制度上路你有沒有盤點過醫療現場會面臨什麼衝擊"},{"start":13648.072,"end":13668.818,"text":"我想醫院在財務的自我管理會更加的一個謹慎那如果說他的管理他對病人就會用最有效益的方式來解決你可不可以講具體一點啊不然我講給你聽你補正耶不然我講給你聽啦我再舉個例子他長大的日子就會說"},{"start":13671.459,"end":13680.646,"text":"聽你講這個我認為你不使人間煙火因為很多醫院都跳出來反映了很多醫院的發言人都出來講話了第一個根據媒體的報導台大"},{"start":13686.81,"end":13714.803,"text":"民眾最擔心的就是醫學中心掛號費會不會調漲然後呢台大醫院目前掛號費100健保部分負擔420然後呢發言人就表示各種醫療支出要價不斷攀升去年點值不到0.9仍然遠遠的趕不上高漲的電費人事費為了因應可能的財務衝擊他們已經商量很多了然後他們不排除最後一個就是調漲掛號費"},{"start":13716.704,"end":13736.114,"text":"然後新光醫院的副院長大家都知道醫務管理學會的理事長洪子仁也表示不過他們講的更多他們盤點醫院量能他們能做的調控措施包括調高掛費以外減少週六及夜間門診控制掛號人數延後非緊急手術等等"},{"start":13743.26,"end":13744.483,"text":"現在這事情有嚴重嗎 我現在講這個可能的衝擊在這裡 生病的人會受到的衝擊"},{"start":13751.772,"end":13773.73,"text":"那錢會更高的還算是最小的 調高掛號費再來開集也不會更高的週末假日還有夜間門診減少了開集要去掛號就掛不到了控制掛號人數你要去看也掛不到了半夜的週末的集中症的"},{"start":13775.332,"end":13787.07,"text":"延後非緊急手術那意思是說都要碰瓶子那瓶子不上不下集中症當然排除在那個外面啦但是呢還有一種是減傷"},{"start":13789.865,"end":13795.15,"text":"輕的報重的 這也不可能啊當然這種狀況 調整掛號費還掛不到號 這民怨四起啊對民眾來講 可能衝擊到醫療品質 掛號看診困難自費項目變多 手術被延後然後消基會的董事吳榮達他擔憂啊"},{"start":13810.542,"end":13831.872,"text":"這一個新制上路醫療品質會下降醫院如果縮門診量民眾括號看診更困難影響就醫的可敬性當然我們希望分級醫療所以這個縮門診量是對是錯我們暫姑且不論但是這個消基會董事會講就檢驗檢查手術時間的遞延也會影響病情的發現導致病情惡化"},{"start":13838.695,"end":13851.78,"text":"如果醫院若自行限縮醫療服務的申報門診檢查檢驗手術住院減少可能會影響這個事情再來喔醫療人員的收入加劇人力的出走這你們有想過嗎"},{"start":13855.666,"end":13869.724,"text":"你知不知道 不是我們不支持分級醫療有時候到小診所然後醫生檢查不出問題都會叫我們說 你為了慎重起見到醫學中心去做檢查有沒有這種狀況"},{"start":13871.113,"end":13878.219,"text":"有啊很多啊還有一個根據媒體報導56歲的楊女士服用高血壓的藥6年照都在台中榮總心臟內科定期回診拿單然後呢她也不懂什麼是腫瘀然後為了要掛號她覺得掛號費漲她會吞下去但是她曾經因為服用醫院給的藥不要忘了你們還有缺藥的問題喔"},{"start":13896.533,"end":13910.6,"text":"你們缺藥的問題尤其是一些特殊的藥只有供給給醫院沒有供給給地區醫院也沒有供給給地方診所也沒有供給給地區的這個藥房結果那他說他的經驗是他病情穩定了醫院將他下轉到診所"},{"start":13914.141,"end":13929.706,"text":"從診所要從原廠藥變學名藥還需要在醫學中心回診經每半年都抽血檢驗看這個一下在診所檢驗又要回到醫學中心就算了但是呢後來檢查好有時候又要到發現變嚴重了又要到中榮去就診"},{"start":13936.756,"end":13951.671,"text":"這個我們要講的是說分級是對的但是有很多狀況並不是民眾迷信醫學醫院或教學中心而是事情的原本就是這樣對這裡治療好控制好你叫我去診所就控制不好我就要回來"},{"start":13953.413,"end":13973.073,"text":"這個教學中心所以這個很複雜的不一定大家都喜歡逛醫院也不一定大家都認為到醫學中心好可是他的經驗就是如此所以他覺得說這個狀況怎麼處理呢你不可以僅憑政策的調整或是你們從上面講說就是這樣子沒問題可以改變了"},{"start":13974.514,"end":13979.378,"text":"你要去掌握民眾的就醫習慣和決策的行為這是很複雜的你單純調高掛號費也不代表能夠有效的降低民眾因輕症前往醫學中心的就診的狀況這個我也諮詢過你調整了部分負擔結果呢結果呢 到醫學中心裡面看病的 看門診的量增加 增加"},{"start":14004.017,"end":14010.925,"text":"現在只有改變什麼從人民的荷包掏出更多錢這一件事情而已你想要做的分級醫療沒有改變你當初漲部分負擔就說是為了要落實分級醫療結果沒有辦法控制啊"},{"start":14019.033,"end":14021.235,"text":"無效啊無效的政策啊那現在呢醫改會也擔心啦門診減量以後醫院可能會透過健保轉資費減少賣信簽的處方簽的釋出調漲掛號費來增加收入導致病人看病變貴"},{"start":14037.506,"end":14054.852,"text":"那為了讓治療項目得到保障甚至可能會將輕症報為重症那為了避免過度申報而斷頭給付他也可能會發展什麼我報太多被斷頭給付那他要怎麼因應如果你是醫院接應者你要怎麼因應部長"},{"start":14056.787,"end":14072.476,"text":"真的很敬佩委員你覺得他們上有政策下有對策你覺得醫院會怎麼因應啊他是非常複雜的因素但是我必須要跟大家講說今天我們生活在台灣這個國度是非常幸福的"},{"start":14072.756,"end":14082.16,"text":"我現在要跟你說你的政策有問題沒有啦我投資你政策可能的問題在哪裡沒有啦你講不出來我就告訴你啦醫院你一直去看一直去看他沒有辦法負責別人我們一定要改革讓他練保養所以讓永遠得到好的照顧我不算喔"},{"start":14098.886,"end":14127.243,"text":"我不叫你回答你一直跟我相親 我要跟你講 北醫要面對這麼多人來看診 他怎麼因應 上有政策下有對策道高於尺 魔高於杖啦北醫要透過門前診所啦 將輕症帶出醫院治療啦而門前診所已經很多啦 很普遍啦這個就是我們在集合的重點之一集合的重點之一有改變嗎"},{"start":14128.533,"end":14157.403,"text":"有解決嗎我們各區的管理在這個部分沒有啦將輕症帶出醫院假裝不是醫院去看的門前診所然後再去瓜分西醫的基層診所的總額從醫院的總額再來瓜分診所的總額而重症的病人如果沒有人要收通通給他送到公立醫院讓護理人力更慌公立醫院的"},{"start":14158.383,"end":14170.968,"text":"所以如果避免醫院選病人你衝擊的配套在哪裡如果讓人家剛提出來的可能的問題你們是有能力因應的嗎你來告訴我"},{"start":14172.588,"end":14189.772,"text":"透過健保轉資費你要怎麼處理減少慢性遷的事數你要怎麼處理調漲掛號費但是沒有改善醫療分級的問題你怎麼處理門前診所你說你要列為評鑑的項目但是你沒有效你要怎麼處理我們委員所擔心所提出的請你放心"},{"start":14196.261,"end":14214.014,"text":"我們一定一個一個去把它監測保障保障人民身體最佳的健康限縮門診你知道台大你們台大健康政策管理研究所門診的數量真的不用太重一個門診一個診斷大規模我還沒請你說你怎麼這麼說的黃正熙教授有要拿來看其實大家都看了沒有啦我現在沒有在聽你抬槓主席我要問問題他這樣子一直抬槓我怎麼問"},{"start":14223.601,"end":14237.444,"text":"沒有啦我是回答我是說台大健康政策管理研究所副教授郭年珍他最近也撰文指出個別醫院總額上路會遇到的四個問題第一個限縮門診手術是否會影響就醫的限縮門診和手術會不會影響到就醫的可進性"},{"start":14244.986,"end":14264.92,"text":"那第二個就是說啊如何避免醫療醫院選擇輕症病患啊如何避免啊今年醫院的總額比去年增加了370億欸那預期的點值穩定性會提升啊可是關鍵問題在如果避免影響民眾就醫的可進性和醫療品質很低啊但是有可能"},{"start":14270.726,"end":14290.84,"text":"醫院我們健保多給了370億然後你們漲部分負擔也增加了醫院的收入然後呢如果再增加掛號費收入又要增加可是未來掛號掛不到然後檢查檢查不到然後未來看病的可敬性會受影響"},{"start":14291.801,"end":14320.37,"text":"你有沒有可能面臨導致高醫療需求的病患不符但是不符合重症的範圍面臨更大的困難或者是變成全民搶掛號大賽大家都要搶掛號都拜託你去搶掛號或是促使醫院策略性的選擇輕症病患平轉或上轉醫療資源耗用多的病患給其他公立的醫院進一步的加劇醫療資源分配不均"},{"start":14322.315,"end":14347.388,"text":"然後再來第三點 郭年增教授講的醫院內部資源分配和管理衝突這不是醫病的問題 也不是醫院跟病人的問題而已光是醫院內部各分科的內部資源分配和管理就會產生衝突所以在某些科別好看的 成本低的 然後服務量增加"},{"start":14348.408,"end":14361.111,"text":"然後薪資裡面呢 如果這種像成本高的 不賺錢的科別然後人數下降 這邊看這個吃力不討好的 醫生會收入減成本高的 成本低的 然後好看的 人看越多越賺錢的 醫生薪水越來越高"},{"start":14369.173,"end":14397.35,"text":"光是在這種狀況裡面醫師現有的薪酬制度除了兼行政主管或擔任研究醫師以外仍然都是以不拖你服務的量能為基礎鼓勵多做來分配酬勞和所得可是你當總額受到嚴格的控制然後醫院如果沒有有效的調整薪資激勵這個這個激勵的鼓勵的機制的話你如果反向的鼓勵不要充量然後你沒有鼓勵"},{"start":14398.351,"end":14399.232,"text":"你這個管理食物上還有一種問題是論人計酬的狀況那你減少醫療你要讓這個醫生和部門之間真的啦這問題很嚴重的譬如說"},{"start":14417.421,"end":14441.181,"text":"本醫來得住院 住院的我們都知道門診轉住院的病患病情比較穩定住院的天數容易管理比較有機會接受自費治療可是急重症的急診他轉住院的病患病情是相對嚴重的住院的時間也不確定了也可能比較容易被排擠"},{"start":14441.781,"end":14447.965,"text":"有沒有可能在醫院的管理上他們在各部門的住院收留上寧可優先選擇收留門診轉上來的而策略性的將急重症的急診部門的要轉病房的讓他留在急診室導致急診有壓力進一步升高"},{"start":14467.156,"end":14467.919,"text":"因為這部門和部門之間 我也要選定他要選勤課 他也要選朝廷的"},{"start":14474.116,"end":14502.983,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面這一類的急診和非急診專科的衝突在醫院裡面會不會被進一步的放大畢竟多收一個急診的患者即使能夠健保的加成或是排除個別的總額之外相較於門診排成的住院病患哪一個比較符合他們那個部門的利益這個是很現實的因為那個部門也有護理人力缺護理師也考量到我寧可照顧"},{"start":14503.763,"end":14507.585,"text":"門診轉上來誰要照顧那個急診 急重症轉上來的所以為了在這種狀況裡面這個問題都是內部管理會衝突的而犧牲的是病人啦在這種狀況裡面還有一種病床控管的方式並不是由科部統一管理有一些醫院的病床的管理是根據個別醫師資歷去分配的"},{"start":14530.66,"end":14546.749,"text":"而個別醫師的資歷的分配狀他導致有空床仍然無法有效收治急診的病患所以在這裡我並不是說我們反對你分級醫療並不是說你反對你個別醫院的總額管制而是"},{"start":14548.223,"end":14563.251,"text":"你要做的你要監測的更細緻你的配套機制要更完善而是你要預期到可能的衝擊對病人的衝擊是什麼而你的因應知道是什麼請問我剛剛講到一些問題你們的配套是什麼"},{"start":14568.493,"end":14582.182,"text":"病人受到這麼大的衝擊 你的配套是什麼所以在醫界 在學界 人家已經跟你講你的政府要細緻的進行相關的監測和配套機制你說什麼呢你們現在有什麼細緻的監測和配套機制你們監測的項目有哪些監測的頻率會如何設定監測後的檢討設定多久時間"},{"start":14594.949,"end":14611.085,"text":"包園,你剛剛提的,不管是郭教授,或者是你提的寶貴的見解其實我們都知道我雖然問你,你也在這裡,不是問你知不知道我問你啊,你現在監測的配套機制是什麼你若不能說,叫你書長來說啦我看你是不會說啦,叫你書長來說你,就下機會,讓書長我問一下"},{"start":14623.908,"end":14633.437,"text":"跟委員報告這個個別醫院總額除了台北區之外全部都在今年1月1號都實施了台北區當然是最困難的"},{"start":14635.319,"end":14640.44,"text":"南區高屏區東區都已經早已實施多年所以這個不是一個新的制度因為這些問題在過去實施之前也都有這樣的疑慮但是實施下去之後我們各區的你不要這樣子好不好中南部的醫療現場的問題跟我們北區會一樣嗎"},{"start":14659.705,"end":14671.875,"text":"一個大台北地區多少人你知道嗎大台北就好了北北區就好了多少人你告訴我700萬人啊對啊但是大台北區啊700萬占全台灣三分之一耶北北區的醫療資源很豐豐盛啊"},{"start":14676.872,"end":14704.688,"text":"你知道2004年就以醫院卓越計畫之名推行過了類似個別總額的制度了啦這個概念在2004年就做過了那因為部分醫院減少開立藥品種類和數量而且限制門診量導致民眾申訴掛不上號醫院減少開藥種類或數量甚至有醫學中心因為頻繁遭投訴而被中區健保業務組終止合約但是因為當時是自願參與的"},{"start":14706.829,"end":14733.088,"text":"而未參加的醫院這個點子會讓他下降然後影響了整體醫療生態最後這一個計畫被監察院糾正欸那我不認為現在的計畫跟當時是一模一樣但是你們面對這個的態度你們認為台北的模式跟中南部會一樣都不會有問題學者專家叫你們監測什麼你們要監測了嗎"},{"start":14736.058,"end":14752.187,"text":"有監測嗎 都會參考啦他們叫你監測什麼 你先回答我你先回答我沒有實施的台北居庸社 其他區實施的沒有你先回答我 他們要求的監測合不合理他們要求監測什麼東西 你回答得出來嗎"},{"start":14753.24,"end":14781.599,"text":"我們有很多的指標在監測他在說你們都不聽就不想聽啦還在說你們都知道知道你連聽都不想聽人家建議監測實施前後的實施前後的門診和住院病患的屬性變化監測病人就醫流向是不是出現不合理的平轉或下轉引導醫院建立更合理的薪酬和資源分配機制"},{"start":14783.325,"end":14791.892,"text":"引導醫院建立更合理的薪酬和資源分配機制你們的對策是什麼你們的手段 蘿蔔和棒子是什麼"},{"start":14796.738,"end":14815.957,"text":"大家都轉到台大和北龍然後像那個人酬的話不收的話是要轉出那邊處分還是還是台大和北龍要負責我真的要語重心長的跟委員報告啦您的資料我們都會我們都了解也會解決但是我不是要來了解我現在問你說人家拋出來的問題"},{"start":14818.88,"end":14839.312,"text":"他們絕對都是...我是幫醫院拋出來的問題拿來問你我不是在問醫院院長我擔心的是衛福部部長你要怎麼解決而你講不出來所以我擔心啦有蘿蔔有棍子但是不是一個學者所講的就代表全部"},{"start":14839.992,"end":14844.836,"text":"我現在最好說一句啦現在我最好說一句啦因為我說很久了啦你為大家不是靠上身就可以解決問題你不是大家叫你為上身就可以解決問題今天在這裡是說人家提出問題了你有什麼看法你有什麼解方你面對病人受到這麼大的衝擊你的配套是什麼我有提出的問題我們一定會收起"},{"start":14868.673,"end":14890.503,"text":"而今天整個衛福部包括部長包括署長都對我們提出來的病人受到衝擊回答不出來不願意回答然後轉移焦點 答非所問這才是大問題啦我們要解決所有人擔心的問題大家都宣誓性的 唯獨一再的宣誓而已"},{"start":14892.172,"end":14898.497,"text":"主席有請部長部長好請問衛福部今年通過預算是多少那跟去年相比增加多少"},{"start":14925.272,"end":14926.035,"text":"呃增加了大概"},{"start":14929.648,"end":14954.035,"text":"三百多億今年通過將近三千七百億因為被核酸了十一億今年差不多三千七百億左右所以總共增加就算被刪了十一億也增加了三百多億對不對是我現在請教部長我們真的是增加很多服務的量我肯定衛福部啦所以一個一個來肯定你好不好"},{"start":14954.935,"end":14978.744,"text":"來 我想請教部長護理人員夜班津貼這筆預算是編在哪裡我告訴你好不好是編在護理人力政策準備中長程計畫而這個計畫是列在護理及健康照護業務向下沒錯嘛 對不對好 那我想請問你護理及健康照護業務今年預算是多少79.87億嘛 對不對"},{"start":14986.045,"end":15002.739,"text":"沒錯啦 如果我講錯你再更正我 後來補給我啦這是預算上面的啦去年編列多少4.78億啦對不對沒錯吧那我想請問今年護理及健康照護業務預算被刪了多少預算被刪了多少護理及健康照護業務27002700嗎一毛都沒刪啦"},{"start":15017.33,"end":15044.966,"text":"你講是統三嘛 我講是這個項目三多少統三是你們要去調整的啦一毛都沒三嘛 沒錯吧然後凍結了多少 凍結了多少550萬啦 我告訴你啦 沒錯吧550萬啦 而且喔是國民黨 民進黨 民眾黨都有提案凍結喔不是只有在野黨提案凍結喔提案凍結的部分連民進黨也有喔"},{"start":15045.868,"end":15066.098,"text":"那我就要請教您 部長請教我剛剛講的都沒錯吧 部長事事不管是捅山捅洞應該就是這個數目好啊 謝謝您 謝謝您告訴我然後我們部長上次在衛福部官員開記者會當時趙律師司長 蔡淑鳳司長你怎麼講的"},{"start":15070.066,"end":15093.451,"text":"除護理人力政策準備中長程計畫今年編號47億不分醫院層級及病房類別所有護理人員均可以拿到一樣的獎勵預算到位就可以罰房並回溯至今年1月沒錯吧沒錯吧 對不對那我想請問部長急診優設是藍白3預算造成的嗎是不是"},{"start":15095,"end":15109.065,"text":"前陣子發生急診擁捨的問題是藍白三預算造成的嗎是不是急診擁捨應該是長久以來各種因素的問題我真的非常非常謝謝也敬佩部長謝謝你啊謝謝你打臉你的次長呂健德"},{"start":15111.647,"end":15130.053,"text":"我跟你講 這好好管管你的次長次長怎麼講 他在上節目說啊這個急診優設行政院編了50億的護理業班津貼但是預算已經編了 送到立法院被砍 被刪 被動所以他推給藍白衫預算耶部長我今天真正的肯定也謝謝你啊"},{"start":15135.711,"end":15164.3,"text":"你知道這個謠言到處放還是政府官員去放以及所有側翼引用這個謠言到處去攻擊別人啊實際上已經講過了從最大的項目最大的項目衛福部的預算就是增加了300億啊對不對那從第二個護理人力政策整備中長城計畫實際上護理健康照顧業務"},{"start":15167.625,"end":15180.614,"text":"79.87億比去年4.78億 增加75億而且一毛未三 凍結550萬結果你的次長竟然可以說這個急診用色是因為藍白 篩預算 砍預算 凍預算"},{"start":15183.672,"end":15203.631,"text":"所以我謝謝部長當然我們也期待齁那個因為統山統棟還是在部長很講統山統棟難道你今天要告訴統山統棟你打算把統山統棟的項目拿去動護理人員的夜班津貼嗎那個因為必須要它穩定不是啦部長我就問你啦以後我們才敢"},{"start":15204.677,"end":15232.538,"text":"第一個嘛 統三統鬥 你打算去拿去動護理人員的夜班津貼嗎沒有嘛 我直接幫你講嘛 對不對所以我回頭要跟部長說沒關係啦 部長我跟你講 我今天到現在為止是肯定你啦 為什麼我也拜託那一次而已 我直接講你再說藍白三預算 羅志強三護理人員津貼預算 醫護預算你講一次我告一次 你相不相信"},{"start":15234.892,"end":15260.171,"text":"我跟他說真的可惡至極無良到一個程度我也最後跟部長做一個總結我就結束今天急診擁捨的問題很嚴重剛剛我看前面幾個委員都有質詢啊我也希望部長能夠好好去做我在大安區是一步一步的挨家挨戶的拜訪這段時間我就遇到一個離職的護理師告訴我部長你就聽聽他的心聲"},{"start":15262.23,"end":15287.806,"text":"他說啊他在當護理師的時候流產三次啊流產三次其中一次是值班的時候大出血差點連命都沒有他告訴我他說我熱愛護理師工作啊可是我為什麼要離開他說不只是工作跟收入這個不合理更重要的是"},{"start":15288.564,"end":15312.601,"text":"他的工作的壓力不合理幾乎壓垮了很多的護理師像他這樣資深的護理師最後選擇離開就會開始形成惡性循環不是嗎離開以後結果護理人手短缺壓力更大壓垮更多護理人員然後更多護理人員移開壓力更大再壓垮更多護理人員"},{"start":15314.032,"end":15334.26,"text":"這個惡性循環才是剛剛我們部長講的急診優設長期很多的問題有待我們衛福部跟所有各院所解決嘛對不對是所以謝謝認真解決問題然後也請這個呂次長不要造謠謝謝謝謝也拜託委員齁盡量的全力來支持我們相關好謝謝羅委員謝謝部長這個還要處理呢"},{"start":15345.236,"end":15347.717,"text":"主席可以嗎?好像耽誤時間的不是我吧"},{"start":15372.048,"end":15392.958,"text":"前面主席在主持議事的時候,我們都尊重委員諮詢了快半個小時,你沒制止我們靜靜的在等,一句話都沒有非常尊重主席、議事的處理希望這個基本的文明跟秩序,在日晚委員會可以繼續貫徹好,來請部長"},{"start":15401.468,"end":15422.801,"text":"委員好部長我想基層護理同仁的福利跟他的新生向來是我長期關注的事情上個會期針對這件事情也有跟部長當基層的護理師請命部長也有做一些承諾這個我們等一下再來講"},{"start":15424.298,"end":15451.325,"text":"但是現在大家更關心的事情是說護理人員近10年離職離居空缺率不斷的升高那部長看起來好像也蠻認真的有打電話去問各個醫院說護理師現在的待遇如何那顯然部長應該也是肯認整個基本上面的勞動環境是護理師是不是繼續願意留在工作崗位上面"},{"start":15452.225,"end":15477.97,"text":"的一個最重要的原因,我這樣說沒有錯吧?是對嗎?非常重要的原因好,非常重要的原因,那我們就來看賴清德總統選總統的時候,說那個護病筆要入法他那個時候講的稍微抽象一點,說兩年或者是他任內賴清德總統的這個政治承諾,部長會不會跳票?"},{"start":15480.81,"end":15499.516,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們一定努力所以我們先用獎勵那獎勵的比例現在奇怪怎麼部長現在講的跟賴清德當初提出來的競選政見差這麼多那個部長不好意思就是你如果要做其他的政治宣言你去開記者會"},{"start":15502.417,"end":15528.529,"text":"這裡,尋答就針對問題回答,我的問題非常明確我想我們會一直溝通,特別是跟醫院,因為要充實護理人員請你聽我的問題回答好嗎好賴清德講的這個話,兩年後任內護病比錄法,這個政治承諾會不會跳票?我想在他特別後面有一個兩年內跟任內的這個我想我們會盡量來完成會盡量來完成,跳票誰要負責?"},{"start":15530.14,"end":15553.532,"text":"是你的責任還是賴清德的責任?那就是我工作不力對,就是你工作不力你很有肩膀,自己把他扛起來但我也幫你講一句話開這個支票的是賴清德當初這個支票開出來了以後,站在你旁邊的這位市長非常會打折水棍上"},{"start":15555.005,"end":15570.614,"text":"配合當初副總統要選總統的政見趕快出來表示這是2023年11月20號的表示竹子是這樣講的最快今年年底行政程序決定出最終的版本"},{"start":15571.534,"end":15586.587,"text":"他發話的時間是2023年11月20號最快今年年底就會最終版本最快有望明年上路就2024年上路那顯然到現在是沒有上路是不是飄飄我補充一下這個是應該是三班戶並比的標準"},{"start":15592.364,"end":15597.072,"text":"三班戶邊筆的標準不是入法那現在如果沒有符合這個標準的話現在沒有符合這個標準有什麼狀況"},{"start":15603.166,"end":15631.386,"text":"不是 這個就是說標準定案是 如果沒有符合標準會造成什麼狀況我們是在2024年的奇怪 我這麼簡單的問題你都可以繞來繞去現在我的問題很明確我們現在是用獎勵所以你還是沒有回答我的問題嗎是有效果的你現在定一個標準嘛你現在就定一個標準嘛我的問題是沒有符合這個標準的法律效果是什麼"},{"start":15632.844,"end":15639.267,"text":"那你就直接回答沒有法律效果就好了嘛這麼簡單的問題寫來寫去這麼簡單的問題繞來繞去就是沒有法律效果嘛如果用獎勵的方式會有用的話現在的情況會這樣嗎當初賴清德是說用獎勵的方式嗎"},{"start":15659.329,"end":15685.789,"text":"這樣對嗎?選前騙票?選後票票?這樣對嗎?這個就是基層護理同仁他們的心聲這個就是基層護理同仁的心聲這個我們一定努力但是這個要跟醫院來配合就是也要聽聽醫院看看他能不能做得到做不到所以嘛這就是等到2024年等到票投完了以後薛瑞元才講大實話嘛"},{"start":15687.625,"end":15711.731,"text":"沒有辦法入法沒有時程選前一套選後一套對比的這麼清楚莫此為勝這為什麼大家不滿理由就是這個嗎去年的時候五一勞動節集成的醫護就出來喊沒有達標也沒有罰則這是為什麼去年在問法委員會問這題"},{"start":15713.94,"end":15738.568,"text":"在問完委員會問這題問完了以後然後呢然後就沒有然後了嘛繼續賴皮啊就像卓榮泰講的啊我們是用獎勵的方式啊看了令人瞠目結舌啊我很希望2023年的時候賴清德總統啊是誠實的告訴全國人民啊我打算用獎勵的方式啊來處理三班互併比的問題啊"},{"start":15739.727,"end":15765.123,"text":"而不是在選前的時候講一套選後的時候跳票跳票完了 推一個行政院院長出來厚著臉皮講我是用獎勵的方式報告委員 因為時間還沒到 我們會盡量來努力OK好 沒關係 有一件事情是時間到了我去年質詢就跟你講說專科護理師沒有拿到"},{"start":15766.223,"end":15787.839,"text":"然後你說你一定會按照衛福部的規定去發放有嗎今年一月開始會發沒有啦今年一月是今年一月的事情啊去年該給人家的到現在都沒給啊我去年就是在問去年該給沒給的啊該給沒給的啊藉著清腸期還不履行限於幾副職員然後你跟我說今年會給"},{"start":15790.171,"end":15812.621,"text":"去年有啊 去年我們271是給一般急性病房的沒有 所以我就要你先停一下好不好我如果今天沒有得到護理師的陳情我今天會傻傻的站在這邊質詢喔你們跟我說會做 那我就一定會去追蹤嘛我追蹤出來的結果就沒有嘛所以才會陳情到我這邊來嘛現實上是什麼 現實上就沒領到啊"},{"start":15818.186,"end":15836.012,"text":"這每一家醫院的護理師我全部都去check過啦部長 質詢的時間到了這涉及到你的承諾這也到齊啦 這不是還沒到齊的事情啊回去清查 一個禮拜以後給我書面回覆好不好好的 可以齁好 謝謝委員"},{"start":15841.089,"end":15847.436,"text":"謝謝黃委員 標準接續楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席 陽瓊發言 邀請部長"},{"start":15870.99,"end":15878.694,"text":"部長好現在我們說醫護血汗這一個崩潰兩個字來形容那這個崩潰"},{"start":15880.049,"end":15901.615,"text":"也已經很久到底我們改善的口號還要很多久我們看到現在目前為止醫護現場的崩潰無論是急診室的庸塞重症病患難以排入ICU尤其我們還看到我們的醫護人員真的太辛苦了"},{"start":15902.435,"end":15927.453,"text":"他必須要上了十幾個小時急診一個人要顧十幾個人救護車送病患來 甚至全部滿床重症者沒有床不能那怎麼辦 救護車的床啊下來做暫時床做暫時床在這樣的情況之下 我只能夠用血汗崩潰來形容"},{"start":15929.281,"end":15940.093,"text":"我要請教因為你也是來自醫界你也當過民意代表真正的原因是什麼會導致現在的現狀真正的原因是什麼請做說明"},{"start":15943.703,"end":15955.747,"text":"這個有分長期跟短期啦那短期這次發生的比較嚴重我們不可諱言就是護理人力方面需要加強護理缺人力不足醫療體系缺人在近期當然是比較明顯那長期來講就是我們在推分級"},{"start":15964.935,"end":15985.711,"text":"醫療這個部分也沒有落實那民眾還是相信大醫院其實有些病其實是可以找他社區的一個診所醫師部長你剛剛所說的原因主要你講出三點第一個也就是整個醫療體系缺人"},{"start":15986.929,"end":15997.539,"text":"接下來缺衣物接下來護理人員不足那這個原因這麼危急他面臨到下一個環節問題是什麼請問下一個環節問題是什麼導致這樣的原因條件下一個環節是什麼"},{"start":16008.277,"end":16010.619,"text":"下一個環節就是醫院要關病房急診待診停治的時間會越多"},{"start":16030.14,"end":16052.102,"text":"再來就是門診床位調度會失衡是不是所以它是連環問題一直產生你是醫界出身你告訴我是這不是一朝一夕耶也不是現在才發生因為在疫情之後我們已經提出出現了護病比是一比十"},{"start":16053.655,"end":16072.72,"text":"是不是所以你們在評鑑裡頭你提出的1比6 1比7 1比9作為評鑑的原因之內所以因此我要跟你討論1比12的地區醫院也因為如此你剛剛講到一個關鍵醫務人員不夠所以只好關病房對不對所以這樣的情況我們要怎麼解決我回顧在2003年的時候"},{"start":16083.379,"end":16101.785,"text":"我們為了也就是病房費在我們健保體系我們把它拉出來護理人員單獨體系對不對護理會拉出來目的要做什麼我們希望護理人員很辛苦他可以願意要留下來而且我們專款專用第一梯是20億"},{"start":16106.84,"end":16128.835,"text":"就如此解決了當時稍微的緊張可以緩和一點但是到目前為止我們要怎麼辦我們要怎麼辦離職潮這麼多衍生的問題因為人力不足導致醫院的方式關病房也好再急診請大家不要再到急診了媒體這麼罷你看到吧那你要怎麼解決"},{"start":16135.9,"end":16161.536,"text":"當然必須要到急診還是到急診那如果說一些未婚化的症狀那我們希望說能夠有分流的機制那這樣能舒緩急診的壓力這個部分當然從預防性的措施我們要做那至於說人力方面我們不停的在努力提高醫護同仁的待遇還有改善公司醫護同仁的待遇我們問兩種總統說"},{"start":16165.419,"end":16186.451,"text":"總統說我們的這個三班互併筆要入法什麼時候要入法已經過了一年了他說兩年或者在任內你是他的部長你會完成他的承諾嗎我一定會完成他的承諾你會完成他的承諾也就是說我們的三班互併筆一定會入法你現在進程怎麼樣"},{"start":16190.509,"end":16216.67,"text":"跟委員報告進程如何你們現在討論到哪裡其實這個有很多政策請針對議題提問因為你已經說你會完成總統的政治承諾那請問但是因為要達到的時候也是要努力嘛所以我們現在你現在進度怎麼樣沒關係本市只要了解進度我們首相的努力之下我們從去年的3月醫學中心36%達到"},{"start":16218.471,"end":16223.774,"text":"三班護病比 三班喔 都達到的36% 現在已經59%了所以你現在不是在錄法嘛 你現在只是自助嘛現在是獎勵的情況之下那區議院已經到達50%那地區議院已經到達94%我相信獎勵的如果落實對於護病比應該是會達到更好的目標獎勵的經費在你編列在今年度"},{"start":16246.377,"end":16262.288,"text":"是你編的嘛大家全力支持嘛對不對感謝感謝感謝齁還好你說一句感謝不能再造謠一定要好好想好好的支持我們的醫護所以本期在這裡討論我們現在對不起還沒一頁還沒辦法發啦等整個預算確認以後我們就趕快來發從一頁就要趕快來發這個項目是79.87億嘛對不對大家全力的在支持啊"},{"start":16276.781,"end":16294.698,"text":"所以接下來本席要請問您剛才承諾的你會完成總統他所說的互併三班這個字的路法對不對三班互併筆你會完成他的"},{"start":16295.526,"end":16321.285,"text":"路法全力以赴完成任務全力以赴完成任務好請你繼續加油接下來我要請問面對到這樣的問題你要怎麼做本席具體給你建議在短期之內你必須要增加因為民眾需求你剛才說的醫院在喊不要到急診來了我們已經超額很多好幾倍了你說該去還是要去不是你一句該去還是要去你要解決他們的問題啊"},{"start":16323.226,"end":16349.14,"text":"所以急診住院的配床是不是應該要增加第二個 用設施所需的醫護人力是不是要增加第三個 要建立ICU的調配制度在短期內是不是應該這三項要好好的趕快去協助他們有 這個都在努力都在努力 方案請給本席好 沒問題接下來中長期"},{"start":16350.24,"end":16376.457,"text":"護理人員我說我從2003年就開始護理人員的待遇跟工作狀態都應該列為你重要的改革政策真正的來支持我們的醫護包括我們的護理會你的預算這個向下要怎麼樣專款專用不能再挪用對不對是不是該給護理的我們一定要求醫院要公開透明"},{"start":16377.378,"end":16396.924,"text":"不能扣東扣西公開透明不能扣東扣西立法院大家全力的支持你這79億多將近80億我希望你好好善用真正讓我們的護理人員醫護可以好好放心的來照顧這是我們非常希望要努力的目標請你把方案給本席謝謝"},{"start":16401.055,"end":16411.294,"text":"那繼續我們請陳穎委員質詢我們全部答詢完再休息啦客人再動一下就好了有便當的人先吃啦都發了吧"},{"start":16425.762,"end":16444.276,"text":"那個主席可以一分鐘會議詢問我很快速講一下今天有看到我們那個委員會有裝了這個監測器那特別這個有趣的是有這個分貝的部分那我剛剛查的資料就是50分貝以下會讓人家感覺這個寧靜舒適心情愉悅"},{"start":16447.818,"end":16467.87,"text":"那再來就是說70分貝這個以上呢就會造成大家心情煩躁神經緊張然後無法專心影響學習所以我們這個可能也要注意一下官員在這個70分貝以上能不能專心聽委員的垂詢這個也是很重要的那當然"},{"start":16469.231,"end":16483.588,"text":"這個長期處於70分貝以上也會造成大家這個情緒的焦躁所以久而久之可能大家也是需要去看心理醫師或者去做 如果你不會紓壓的話沒有來我那邊吧台喝咖啡的話可能也會造成一些影響"},{"start":16484.389,"end":16502.557,"text":"那再來重要的是你要80分貝 85分貝這些真的會造成聽力的傷害所以我剛剛很注意在看這個分貝問題因為很多的時間是超過80分貝所以我在這邊特別提醒這個所有的這個不管是委員會還是立法院"},{"start":16504.838,"end":16518.726,"text":"這個職業安全衛生設施規則三百條之一這個勞工超過平均85分貝故主要採取聽力保護措施那當然我們已經有做這個監測的這個系統但是我們並沒有做這個監測危害的控管都沒有防護"},{"start":16519.986,"end":16547.265,"text":"這個防音防護的這個配備也沒有譬如說耳塞啦或者是有人在控管那個麥克風我們如果太近聲音太大的時候你就可以稍微調整一下那當然漸減OK那成效評估改善這個可能後續要做我想以上做這個提醒非常感謝昭瑋給我這個時間把這個問題點出來好那我現在接下來要來進等一下喔 不好意思"},{"start":16554.64,"end":16571.225,"text":"我接下來要來質詢首先我有三 今天有三個問題那我先講一下這個加熱菸的部分當然那個部長跟那個健保署署長部長我想先因為對部長跟國健署"},{"start":16573.586,"end":16597.525,"text":"國建署是因為裝傻還是不夠專業因為他們說他們沒有做這個菸捐年度統計的資料所以呢我們辦公室呢就只好自己找資料然後我們自己幫國建署製作了這個非常清楚的表格那我們來看一下這幾年菸捐的收入99年的菸捐"},{"start":16597.845,"end":16625.455,"text":"菸捐將近348億到了去年只剩下264億那我們這個兩個年度來比較一下就是少了84億之多但是民國99年的菸價跟113年來相比這個價格其實是低了很多那菸捐的比例卻大幅的增加但是收入卻大減到原因何在部長其實可以想一想"},{"start":16626.274,"end":16653.441,"text":"因為這個吸菸比例並沒有減少但抽脂菸的人口很多都轉為去抽這個加熱菸了那加熱菸的部分就是基於一些很奇妙的人還有很奇妙的原因所以很奇妙的現在抽加熱菸是不用繳菸捐的所以衛福部的政策不僅"},{"start":16655.561,"end":16677.913,"text":"不是在意志吸這個加熱菸喔反而是在鼓勵大家去吸加熱菸那這個因為齁這個錢啊都進了這個加熱菸這個走私販的口袋了所以呢唯一損失的是健保的挹注所以我們石崇良署長他就要哭哭了"},{"start":16678.894,"end":16694.826,"text":"那按照這個國建署的觀念用健康風險來抑制吸煙吸加熱煙的人口如果這個推論他是真的那麼未來我們國人因為吸這個吸煙的健康風險反而會增加"},{"start":16695.586,"end":16710.551,"text":"因為健保支出會增加嘛那未來這個健保也會被拖垮那醫療品質會下降所以這個到底是不是你們衛福部的德政這個我們就是一直都打問號啦所以我今天特別製作這個表格給大家提醒"},{"start":16711.604,"end":16738.382,"text":"注意這個問題是 謝謝好 那再來部長你沒有要發表一下意見嗎那個當然 謝謝當然我們努力之下那個車淹的比例是有降低啦那剛剛您所重視的我們也通過淹害防治法那在加熱淹的部分也一直在審查那這個部分我想我們一定按照"},{"start":16739.898,"end":16753.067,"text":"加緊時程來做 重點是那個菸捐的收入不要讓他滿天亂飛我們那個我們按照一切按照規定來處理那希望當然"},{"start":16755.009,"end":16765.081,"text":"眼尖增加這也是兩難的事情反正我就覺得H&M是不是比較多不是一些奇妙的人不應該是落到走私的走私的業者這個是最重要的我們這個錢要收回來"},{"start":16771.028,"end":16792.824,"text":"好 那接下來一個重要的問題 我們討論一下就是有關於這個台東醫療資源缺乏 當然是我們台東長久的痛那如果說民眾遇到這種急性腦中風 急性冠心症 心導管的問題那台東有七家醫院 那到底就是可以必須要送到哪裡"},{"start":16793.724,"end":16811.321,"text":"那看來看去呢我們也就是只有就是說送到這個台東馬街因為台東沒有中度急診的醫院只有一家台東馬街是急重症醫院那其他六家都是一般的這個急診那依照這個緊急醫療能力的分級的規定"},{"start":16812.542,"end":16836.757,"text":"急重症的醫院必須要在24小時提供外科、內科、骨科、耳科、麻醉科、神經科、神經外科、婦產科等等的這些專科醫師的緊急的照會服務所以我們台東馬街醫院它就等於我們整個重症醫療的核心我想這個大家都知道的"},{"start":16838.177,"end":16862.706,"text":"台東馬街呢 希望就是說他們希望把這個院內老舊的這個醫護宿舍改建那因為現在我們目前的宿舍我有去看過這個屋齡已經40年了大家可以想像40年的屋齡馬上就會知道他的這個防火防震都不符合現在的標準而且我去看了還四個人擠在一間"},{"start":16864.625,"end":16888.719,"text":"那如果說原地那馬街他們有自備有準備經費那如果說原地打掉重建那重建期間的這個銜接過程會有很多在這個台東我們馬街醫院就是說醫護發生這個他們會發生這個住宿的問題那再加上就是說台東馬街呢因為要充實這個醫療設備所以今年他們還要蓋這個癌醫的大樓"},{"start":16893.121,"end":16909.236,"text":"那在這個整個建樓的過程當中預期會發生就是說可能民眾要去就醫停車的問題就會嚴重不足那再來就是說病患跟家屬當然就是說他這樣就會很不方便啦"},{"start":16909.716,"end":16933.909,"text":"那最近我跟這個莊瑞雄委員呢我們都非常關心台東馬街宿舍改建還有這個停車場用地的問題喔莊瑞雄委員他已經在上個禮拜呢院會質詢的時候有提到這件事情那台東馬街尋找的用地雖然是國產署的可是畢竟衛福部是主管機關所以我今天要在這裡特別提醒喔"},{"start":16934.209,"end":16961.774,"text":"因為台東馬街對於這個台東醫療服務量的那麼重要那麼這件事情我和莊惠雄委員我們一定絕對會大力的支持還有促成那在2月9號的時候我和莊委員呢我們在台東馬街就是說有現場會看了這個去看了宿舍跟停車場等等的這些的現況那"},{"start":16963.254,"end":16972.34,"text":"就是說昨天我們服務處也陪同了這個馬街醫院跟國產署針對這個用地的問題來做這個協商那我想協商的結果其實還蠻正面的所以"},{"start":16978.624,"end":17000.839,"text":"如果這個馬街如果可以找到合適用地的時候是非常需要衛福部針對醫院改建宿舍跟停車場這件事情在公共性、政策性還有必要性這三個方面給予這個肯定跟支持的評價那我想了解一下部長你對這件事情的支持的立場應該沒有問題吧"},{"start":17004.231,"end":17027.241,"text":"報告委員,真的非常感謝委員關心我們台東醫療的水準過去也協助了很多醫療的提升的計畫所以我們藝界都很感謝台東馬街的確是我們重中之重也感謝馬街醫院有宗教的精神"},{"start":17028.081,"end":17053.231,"text":"很多很多的優秀的人才都到那邊服務那也受到台東當地大家的居民的一個支持特別在那個村委員也給予很大的支持那在護理醫護的宿舍的確是非常的老舊他們台東馬街不是沒有錢是沒有地所以我們如果能夠政府來改善"},{"start":17054.071,"end":17076.788,"text":"那個醫護的試射當然是我是求之不得昨天的協調其實已經狀況還不錯怎麼樣拜託我們都可以去拜託能夠讓他趕快讓醫護的試射完成所以就是確定的時候你們趕快對於這個剛剛講的只要我們衛護部能夠做的我們一定全力以赴當然停車的空間也非常重要因為有時候在看病真的"},{"start":17077.489,"end":17098.427,"text":"不要停車停到掛號的輪到你都過了我想那個就是說謝謝部長那後面這個三個方面的這個肯定評價就拜託你了那之後就是說接下來的這個跟台東縣政府的一些募領回饋的這個機制我們我也會協助去協調"},{"start":17103.211,"end":17120.771,"text":"那就最後一個問題我很快也很重要就是說剛剛大家關心的這個偏鄉醫護人力短缺的問題當然這工作環境待遇還有這個三病互併比的這個落實都是改善護理工作環境的這個很關鍵的一個問題"},{"start":17121.832,"end":17142.028,"text":"那其實之前部長有講過說護理師的薪水7萬元這句話 抱歉我從來沒有講過護理師的薪水7萬元那是媒體以及記者會所承認我們今天出來的是網站那自己去看網站各醫院的一個內容他其實也會看到最低"},{"start":17142.708,"end":17163.741,"text":"也比較高的這樣的好那沒有關係我修正一下齁那或許媒體我從來沒有講過這句話那我們從媒體上我從來沒認得多少錢它是夠的齁但是那是媒體看的這樣部長今天給你大大的澄清因為我永遠覺得醫護的薪水必須要再提高那就接下來請給我機會因為我沒有時間了我趕快講齁"},{"start":17167.183,"end":17186.41,"text":"當然這個媒體這樣寫7萬元這個數據當然部長也講嚴重失真那但是我講一下我們台東護理師工作經驗1到5年的薪資只有台東馬街超過6萬塊而已其他都沒有那其他這個公立醫院大概都5萬多"},{"start":17187.31,"end":17201.795,"text":"那這個數據包括公職護理的薪資也相對比較高可是其他私立醫院的部分只有4萬元甚至我們台東在某家的醫院的護理師他職業一年的護理師薪水只有3萬多內"},{"start":17203.888,"end":17217.854,"text":"你們有知道這個訊息嗎只有三萬多這就是我們城鄉落差的一個差異所以我理解每一家的醫院它的複雜度是不一樣但是職業的護理師薪資只有三萬多"},{"start":17219.955,"end":17239.766,"text":"有合理嗎你說這個台東這一家嗎對那個是一個宗教型的醫院那它的loading也許真的是沒有那麼大就好像你診所診所來講它的薪資可能也沒有辦法像醫院那麼高"},{"start":17240.086,"end":17265.948,"text":"因為大家都留不住嘛所以自然而然那個loading就是變成這樣子所以我想講的是我知道你們會有一些理由但是我只是講我是覺得就是說我們一直在強調就是說要留住這個偏鄉人才的情況我覺得衛福部其實這個時候你們就應該要干預這個市場第一其實像這種燈塔型的醫院我們都會健保都會特別的補助而且希望能夠提高"},{"start":17266.849,"end":17290.07,"text":"護理的待遇 這個我們會去多 會去協助那到底要怎麼留住偏鄉的護理人才就是說當然大家都知道就是說住院護理費的偏鄉加成的機制好那我要再提一下這個加成在106年的時候比例從3%提高到15%那這個但是我們都"},{"start":17290.791,"end":17316.395,"text":"之前也有講過啦 說到底這些加成的點數有多少是真正實際反映到這個護理師的薪水待遇上因為我們都知道護理這個護理費用當然有包括到一些儀器設備還有其他等等的不一定只是護理的這個薪資但是我想就是說這一項加成的名稱對偏鄉護理師是很不公平甚至講嚴重一點說這樣的名稱對偏鄉護理師他是一個不正義的名稱"},{"start":17320.336,"end":17340.596,"text":"因為偏鄉住院護理費加成15%的感覺好像是增加經費但是實質到偏鄉護理師的口袋裡其實根本就不是這樣所以這個加成我希望可以有一定比例反映到偏鄉護理師的薪資上面"},{"start":17342.078,"end":17367.436,"text":"這個一定比例 我想今天重點你們一定框一個比例到裡面那在這個15%當中一定提撥一定的比例作為這個護理師的這個額外加急的部分那去年我在去年那個預算審查的時候我們也有提案所以這個部分可能請會後是不是那個健保署再跟我們說明一下辦理的情況大概我想這邊"},{"start":17368.797,"end":17389.151,"text":"提的就是說怎麼樣提高這個誘因還有框那個比例請你們好好回應我們該給護理師的就一毛錢也不用少那他的護理會怎麼樣去分配有一定的比例這個要清清楚楚公開透明要取得大家的一個共識這樣子好再麻煩你們兩週內好沒問題謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝部長接下來我們請洪孟楷委員質詢"},{"start":17402.639,"end":17406.529,"text":"來邱部長抱歉沒讓你坐下來這樣麻煩你好不好"},{"start":17408.919,"end":17434.879,"text":"委員好好直接切入重點大家都關心我們全國的急重症醫療量能是但是昨天爆發新聞我看到說昨天有個新聞是邱太元拍板護理跨科資源指引定案要研議要出來馬上今天又講說護理人員認為根本是跨科資源指引是犧牲權益啊部長"},{"start":17436.246,"end":17449.932,"text":"怎麼會有那麼大的落差現在我們會提出跨科資源指引嗎好 感謝委員的推行那這個是這樣子我們定期跟台灣醫療工會我想那個有醫師有護理師"},{"start":17451.613,"end":17455.457,"text":"可能理解這不用講背景說明啦我們現在在承認問題來回答問題好不好提議說有一個護理有護理的角度提出一個所以你昨天有沒有拍板我確定當然拍板要研議啊要把他的版本拿來他們也很客氣說希望提兩個版本來給我們來參考這樣子"},{"start":17470.586,"end":17497.041,"text":"所以那個我們因為相對這個在醫療公會其實也很代表基層的一個護理的心聲啦所以我們一定要去悉心的來也感謝他們願意提出版本這個他們也花了很多的精神所以我們正在為了部長所以版本也還沒有看到方向是什麼他版本昨天應該還沒有提出來是不是那個有沒有"},{"start":17499.901,"end":17513.572,"text":"要不要看一下昨天的新聞是怎麼跑馬以及今天早上護理師是怎麼樣的強烈的抗議他強烈譴責衛福部侵害護理的權益要求撤回跨科指引跟颱風天出勤指引"},{"start":17514.639,"end":17541.221,"text":"沒關係 這個我們齁 就到現在還搞不清楚不是 護理這幾個團體有護理師公會 護理醫學會 護理公會還有昨天我們定期見面的台灣醫療公會那台灣醫療公會提出來的一個他們不希望用院方的角度來做床的分配因為這樣有一點會影響到護理那護理輪流念力提出這樣一個我們當然要研議啊 那當然我也知道"},{"start":17541.881,"end":17546.383,"text":"他們裡面的代表講說在工會本席剛剛已經講了工會是反對這個的啦工會是反對嘛工會反對所以我也可以找工會來和我溝通一下啦總是要解決問題嘛"},{"start":17557.126,"end":17571.198,"text":"工會代表什麼工會代表就是護理人員嘛最基層的地線的護理人員那你們今天在做這樣子的一個指引的時候沒有找護理人員來討論那你昨天一直推說所謂的定期會但定期會"},{"start":17572.119,"end":17593.355,"text":"那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔"},{"start":17601.707,"end":17623.304,"text":"有沒有轉彎的方向是不是又轉彎了哪一方面轉彎有沒有要推出所謂的跨科資源指引如果有人適當而且是護理界都有共識的我們當然樂觀其成因為總比院方來院方來調床所以後續會不會找相關公會大家來討論沒問題啊"},{"start":17625.973,"end":17646.842,"text":"我們把所有相關的附議環節通通找來討論啊好 部長你的承諾找所有的相關環節來討論來 另外喔我們一直講說三班互併比啊其實前兩天的這個總諮詢的時候那個總預算的附議的時候我也特別跟您請教是"},{"start":17647.742,"end":17674.058,"text":"其中三份互併比你現在都一直講是說要獎勵先行對不對回答很多的委員是我說實在話給醫院時間來補足人力習慣互併比的政策我想這個也不要說一步到位然後好像馬上就要開罰但重點是現在大家的獎勵到底有沒有在一個公平公允的標準我覺得這是很重要的事情我們先問"},{"start":17676.427,"end":17691.017,"text":"幾個問題第一三班戶病比現在是以醫院來做單位還是以病床來做單位是各個病房還是整個整體醫院嘛"},{"start":17694.399,"end":17719.7,"text":"過去很多的護理人員一直在跟你強調一直在討論是說一家醫院裡面它有各個不同的狀況你如果說用整個醫院的人力跟整個醫院病床數據來做平均的話你那個數據沒有辦法如實的呈現時段也好這個醫院也好它都會有一個落差那醫護人員有沒有"},{"start":17720.424,"end":17749.387,"text":"您想要 您是司長嗎好蔡司長蔡司長有沒有之前有接受過護理人員一直跟你反應是說其實高低護病比互相稀釋可能會造成不公允的情況所以希望是能夠用病床為基礎單位來公告三班護病比這個三班護病比我們這個住院有兩大病床一個叫做一般急性病床一個是特殊病床那我們現在的三班護病比指的是急性一般"},{"start":17750.906,"end":17753.308,"text":"急性一般病床那這個全國大概有10萬床那這個病床其實有不同科別不同的科別但是在討論裡面可行跟理想當然可行跟理想總是有一個距離但是這個是經過了七個版本"},{"start":17767.639,"end":17779.645,"text":"半年的填報六次的系列的協商那當然大家沒有完全大家都滿意但是沒有辦法達成對但是有共識啊共識就是說先上路就是還是醫院的共識還是你會服務的共識有護理有醫院很實在話講來部長是"},{"start":17789.656,"end":17818.009,"text":"剛剛司長也特別另外提到另外一個部分也是我想請教的就是所謂的病床其實有分一般急性的一般病房以及隔離病房 特殊病房那你這個三班護病筆其實是沒有把特殊病房給放進去的沒有放進計算那代表什麼代表說有一些護理人員他有可能他也要負責到這個部分但是他是沒有加入計算那某種程度上他也是增加護理人員的負擔啊"},{"start":17819.774,"end":17839.837,"text":"三班戶病比最大的目的就是整個醫院在一個復循環裡面那我們怎麼讓復循環變成正那當然問題的優先次序嘛因為現在醫院裡面最留不住的其實是一般級性病床而且是他也是護理院最大宗的因為一般級性病房大概是10萬床特殊病房是4萬床那他這個人力的配備設備人力的那個標準都不一樣市長來 部長"},{"start":17849.591,"end":17870.777,"text":"我其實今天點出來這個問題我們還是要一起面對就說現在我們看到的是希望護理人員能夠有更多護理人員投入大家都有熱情有想法是南丁格爾但是不是一而再再而三去壓榨或是說是讓他們負擔更重的沉重他們是南丁格爾但是不要把他們當成是塑膠麻糬"},{"start":17871.858,"end":17890.417,"text":"要持續的濃捏持續的壓榨那護理人員尤其是像今天我們看到台灣護士醫療產業工會他們也發出強烈的新聞稿來要求的時候是不是真的也應該聽聽護理人員的心情我們會請他來溝通最後"},{"start":17893.629,"end":17917.338,"text":"部長一分鐘的時間喔馬街醫院有受到這個駭客入侵是不是現在有一千多萬筆的病患個資說被外洩我一直強調是說源頭管理非常重要因為如果說這則個資被詐騙集團掌握的話詐騙集團非常好騙他可能就直接打電話給某某某譬如說打電話給邱先生嗎"},{"start":17918.382,"end":17934.682,"text":"你的身份證字號幾號你的出生年日日幾號我都已經先跟你講完之後我再來去取信於你之後要詐騙就相對容易了解那我想請教2023年速發部成立的時候也說要打造資安國家隊"},{"start":17935.888,"end":17956.381,"text":"就到現在2025年了我們發生的這個馬街醫院說這個病患各自外洩有沒有掌握到情況他到底是馬街醫院他的醫療他的這個防火牆或是說相關的這個治安不夠完整還是說這是普遍各醫院的狀況是這樣子 我們衛福部一聽到這個消息那當然爆發脹機啦 就馬上"},{"start":17958.422,"end":17977.634,"text":"跟司法部去做最好的一個處理所以後來就沒有那個後來就沒有再有延伸那之前的內容因為馬届醫院說他們已經進入司法程序所以也不變說明好那我們掌握的情況因為衛福部是主管機關各單位你現在各下面的醫院"},{"start":17978.835,"end":18002.108,"text":"因為我覺得醫院的病患個資其實是非常詳細的是不是所以說我們有沒有去現在來了解譬如說儲發部然後了解一下說我們現在各醫院大家到底有資安的狀況我們的衛福部的資金是非常強的那跟事發部合作已經跟各個關鍵找了60家的"},{"start":18003.329,"end":18014.815,"text":"重要的醫院 已經開過了很早就開過大概兩個禮拜前就開過會跟他們講要怎麼防護而且有一套防護的機制這醫院被害是什麼時候被害的應該是二月"},{"start":18019.016,"end":18044.276,"text":"之前就應該是被害了啊但是發現的時候我們就開始進行一連串的補救措施以及緩緩未來更多影響好那是不是可以請給本席相關的資料沒問題好不好你們做了因應馬街醫院被害之後做了什麼樣的一個加強管制的措施開會的後續的一個結論已經要求各醫院增加這個治安的一個防範沒問題這個我們都有加強謝謝沒問題謝謝謝謝孟海委員"},{"start":18047.839,"end":18049.099,"text":"謝謝部長 來請張祺凱委員質詢委員好來來 重新開始"},{"start":18078.436,"end":18104.552,"text":"是 謝謝委員長我今天要談一件很讓人家心疼也是捨不得的事情我們希望一起來補破網不要讓失去親人的人傷口一直被掀開不要有造成二度傷害跟三度的傷害最近有一位傷心的媽媽一個貼文"},{"start":18106.949,"end":18119.879,"text":"引起非常大的一個迴響他講他的處境下面很多留言說我碰到的狀況跟你非常的類似那我們看一下這個媽媽的貼文是這樣講的他講說剛剛衛生索來電"},{"start":18128.322,"end":18155.137,"text":"請問說是我嗎 他說對然後再提說恭喜你們家小朋友滿六個月了媽媽說不好意思之前已經告訴你們了寶寶已經離開了他的小孩不幸離開他了可是衛生所的人又打了電話來衛生所的人也說抱歉抱歉急忙掛了這個電話媽媽說"},{"start":18158.339,"end":18186.449,"text":"他講完之後他開始裂崩開始掉眼淚了他實在不明白衛生所為什麼一直打電話來呢前幾個月衛生所打電話說要打疫苗就已經跟他講過一次了而且之前去衛生所申請這個醫療補助的時候已經附了死亡的證明跟出戶的這個證明為什麼衛生所還一直打電話來傷我的心呢他問了一個很重要的問題"},{"start":18189.079,"end":18216.63,"text":"為什麼 副政事務所或者其他單位這個系統是不會連線嗎不只是這位傷心的媽媽他這個貼文 貼出來之後啊下面非常非常多的留言有一個人就講了說我也有過同樣的這個經歷他說他的小朋友啊小兒子滿月前就過世了"},{"start":18218.103,"end":18243.014,"text":"那沒有滿一歲以前 幾乎每個月都打預防針所以衛生所是幾乎每個月都打來每次都要跟他回說我小孩已經過世了但是下一次 衛生所還是打電話來每次他都必須哭著一次說你們有必要每個月提醒我嗎我的小孩已經走了這不只是二次傷害 這傷口要先幾次"},{"start":18248.058,"end":18268.513,"text":"左下角這個 你看這個也是健保 這個剛剛講是衛生所的問題健保局一個民眾說他接到了追繳健保費用的這個帳單可是我妹妹都已經離開兩年了當下他很激動 花瘋一樣去問最後一次就診是三個月內嗎另外這個 右上角這個"},{"start":18275.346,"end":18304.202,"text":"這是一位曾經在衛生所實習的一個員工他講說他有一次打架去關心關懷這個社區的老人打架過去是一位男生接的他說你是某某伯伯嗎那男生跟他講說找他有什麼事情我們這裡衛生所是定期電話去關心伯伯那個男生說他已經過世了他說他掛完電話之後他接他自己像一個罪人"},{"start":18305.643,"end":18327.108,"text":"他聽到阿伯伯伯過世的消息他也很難過可是有時候為什麼這個員工就問啊為什麼沒有同步去更新資料呢讓這種事情發生呢下面有衛生所還有好幾個例子那個留言好多好多喔伯弟是你們衛生所跟戶政事務所沒有連線嗎還是衛生所這邊的作業橫向的聯繫有問題為什麼這麼多人碰到這樣一個問題"},{"start":18333.759,"end":18339.949,"text":"這個可能各縣市的縣市政府的一個互動真的是需要來加強"},{"start":18342.674,"end":18366.47,"text":"我們可以來瞭解狀況來瞭解狀況現在連線的狀況是怎麼樣所以部長你現在回去今天就做好不好好沒問題不要讓這個事情再老實講這真的很心疼的事情小孩離開了已經很捨不得了那你又打電話去提醒他你傷口要再掀一次好不好老實講這個事情對政府來講很容易做到我們是一個數位的政府"},{"start":18367.659,"end":18370.727,"text":"到現在我們的戶政事務所跟我們的衛生局衛生單位這個連線都還連不起來嗎"},{"start":18374.489,"end":18402.362,"text":"所以第一個事情 柏定你現在阿波東的委員你先去問一下我馬上來瞭解先瞭解一下 到底你們衛生所跟副政事務所之間那個連接到底是怎麼樣因為衛生所是縣市政府在管的對 你也主管機關嘛 對不對你也是主管機關這是全國的問題啦是是是那個 柏定這兩件事情這健保局這個稍微我們來瞭解一下去瞭解一下 到底這連接是什麼當然他有可能碰到 例如說可能是個資的"},{"start":18404.349,"end":18412.203,"text":"保護問題可是這顯然就是很多人都碰到問題你知道嗎這個推文有多少人上去知道嗎超過一百萬的人"},{"start":18414.901,"end":18437.955,"text":"留學人非常多 都是很多人碰到類似謝謝委員提醒剛講的小孩或是妹妹家裡面的長輩也一樣啊不要再去做惡毒的這個傷害對政府來講 只要保證你回去把它問清楚第一個護生室我跟你們連線到底目前是怎麼樣那如果真的是有個資保護的問題要怎麼去解決是的那第二個還有一個問題喔你們衛生所"},{"start":18438.995,"end":18452.072,"text":"內部健保局裡面內部自己的這個橫向的聯繫為什麼衛生所裡面第一個人打去他如果說知道已經是有一個家裡人家小朋友離開了你應該註記啊怎麼會有第二個人又打去呢"},{"start":18453.527,"end":18474.039,"text":"所以不是只有跟護送事務所就是衛生局裡面這個單位這個好不好橫向聯繫要能夠改進好不好我們來瞭解馬上來瞭解好那這件事情要慢慢補充我們共同來做希望這個事情不要再發生瞭解瞭解你今天很清楚那你一個禮拜你好好不好一個禮拜等會員報告通電話不要通電話你給我一個"},{"start":18477.481,"end":18505.277,"text":"一個禮拜內給我一份報告就是你查的這個狀況到底是什麼地方出了問題當然也有可能我覺得可能很有可能是個資啦可是我跟你講全世界比較進步的國家沒有說家裡面有一個人離開了然後用一個個資所以其他相關的單位相關的單位你說你還要發你是打疫防針之外一個小孩或一個人他有很多都是跟其他部位都有關係嘛對不對所以說橫向這個一定是要解決要不然台灣就變成一個很落後很落後的一個我們是數位強國耶"},{"start":18507.418,"end":18515.985,"text":"是好不好好謝謝這事情要趕快走一個禮拜你跟我講好沒問題到底這個問題在什麼地方來準備怎麼解決好不好謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝詹委員謝謝部長繼續請劉建國召委諮詢好謝謝主席好謝謝主席沒關係你慢慢說"},{"start":18537.663,"end":18540.505,"text":"我想今年的一月起的流感還有洛羅等疾病的流行"},{"start":18555.168,"end":18583.384,"text":"那全國急診室大爆滿二月更達到這個高峰然後急診醫學會也發文警告急診用篩情況他是講說急診用篩情況已達前所未有的嚴重程度部長當急診醫學會發出這個聲明我是挺感到汗顏也難過因為在你的任內遇到前所未有的急診用篩"},{"start":18584.81,"end":18611.084,"text":"那部長也貴為醫師雖然是加醫科但也來自台大總統也是醫師我們召委也是醫師蘇召委也是醫師我不是聽到要拖下去所以在你的任內發生這個前所未有的急診用篩的嚴重程度急診醫學會跳出來來訴諸媒體反而不是訴諸我們衛福部相關的單位"},{"start":18612.56,"end":18617.011,"text":"看如何來做最快的有效的應驗的作為來減短這樣的用篩"},{"start":18620.959,"end":18642.125,"text":"我覺得這是坦白講這是很大的諷刺啦對不對你要用另外一個高度去思考是在台灣的醫療尤其是急診的部分已經很嚴重的問題在發生而且會越來越惡劣啦然後我們都很清楚嘛齁這個廉價的時間過年啊這個過年時間什麼地方人通常關公地窟嘛總告地窟嘛還有一窟你知道嗎便宜啦"},{"start":18651.997,"end":18665.065,"text":"便衣是絕對是過的時間是可以說當中是八成、八成的對不對到急診流關的他或許不一定要上到便床但是他可能要在那邊待了三個鐘頭、四個鐘頭、五個鐘頭"},{"start":18667.335,"end":18691.585,"text":"他會覺得懦弱上吐下瀉他總是要有一個觀察床讓他可以平躺好好休息一下但是基本上是不可能的現在連急診室的那個流光的觀察床都不足甚至是坐在椅子上在等待處置這台灣的急診的狀態部長應該很清楚"},{"start":18695.166,"end":18703.492,"text":"部長不清楚醫師師也應該很清楚相關的單位也會很清楚怎麼會變成這個樣子然後讓急診醫學會是透過媒體來發聲我覺得在連結上是出了什麼問題"},{"start":18712.672,"end":18730.455,"text":"今天如果部長是壓抑還是部長是攝護的我倒不會特別去提醒這個事情就是我用另外一個角度去思考去討論畢竟部長就是我剛剛特別提到你來自台大嘛然後又是加一科的專職這樣的一個專業的醫師總統也是醫師啊那我們怎麼會在這個當下發生這麼嚴重的讓急診醫學會沒有辦法跟你們"},{"start":18740.817,"end":18765.157,"text":"來做反應 來看如何應應來讓這樣的急診 庸篩不會破紀錄的 前所未有的來得到舒緩我記得這件事情部長要講清楚我也覺得這件事情部長要非常慎重因為等一下會再討論分級醫療分級醫療八年了為什麼做不好你們衛務部連分級的管理都出問題"},{"start":18767.236,"end":18773.982,"text":"你們衛福部連分級怎麼做都一直出問題啊所以會累死不長今天這件事情如果沒有很慎重的很嚴肅的然後去面對然後而且那個積極的應變的方式趕快出來我覺得我覺得我覺得不要說醫療體系會崩壞基準會崩壞連衛福部你都會崩壞"},{"start":18797.028,"end":18804.504,"text":"不過你說這個你不知道可以接受嗎我現在是肺腑之炎啦這怎麼可以在你的臉上發生這種事情"},{"start":18807.018,"end":18826.072,"text":"而且流感、A流、懦弱三種這種很惡劣的這種情況一直在發生你應該都會清楚的醫院會遇到什麼狀況診所會遇到什麼狀況而且又適逢到農曆的過年這其實如果有保護住一段時間或是在病院住一段時間的人就都很清楚了"},{"start":18830.646,"end":18838.528,"text":"一定有問題要怎麼應變要怎麼處理你要怎麼想一套應變的方式不要讓這個北方不要讓這個北方加速不要讓這個醫生不要讓這個護士三星這麼大這麼大這麼大萬年了所以這個萬年都沒有辦法對你們就要透過媒體來跟你們說這真的是這真的是我們要很大的很大的檢討的地方"},{"start":18860.691,"end":18879.995,"text":"這個不用談到什麼專業了啦 我坦白講啦這種常態的 然後會發生的事情你們連這種常態會發生的事情你們都沒有辦法應變然後今天還有勞蘇昭偉排一個歷史專案報告來這邊做討論的情況之下這幾個人是要怎麼舉的好這家屬是要怎麼奉心喪意去進行"},{"start":18885.706,"end":18896.357,"text":"這個基金社 藝生社要怎麼給我 給我去救人這個護士是要做到什麼程度 要抄到什麼程度這能不能遞到你政府 還是便宜更多的這個 這是重視前所未有"},{"start":18904.915,"end":18923.705,"text":"急診用篩情況已達前所未有的嚴重程度你們不敢否認嘛事實就如此嘛為什麼會這樣呢你們真的真的真的面對到問題然後了解到問題怎麼去處理這個問題是不是請部長能用最簡單最快的然後最重點式的方式來做個回應好不好"},{"start":18924.212,"end":18950.202,"text":"好的我想我們在在每年過春節的時候我們都很擔心所以就有預備包括政府也幫忙所以我們買了10萬支的一個疫苗希望控制流感然後我們也開健保署也加重了那個各個 尤其是診所給他30%的一個給付那機關署也在那個各個急診"},{"start":18953.663,"end":18975.351,"text":"補助來成立了傳染病的一個門診來分散急診的力量的一個人力的量能的承擔所以這樣的一個情況那當然我們的確這次的就診人數比較多就診人數比較多後闖的就比較多那其實這個部分我們都完全的有訴訟的掌控那自己急診醫學會其實我跟"},{"start":18977.012,"end":18995.892,"text":"集子醫學院的理事長是非常熟悉所以我們一直在討論那他們可能集子醫學院本身也覺得必須要呼籲當然他要發布這個我是尊重而且我們悉心因為總是要面對問題嘛那問題出來就是來解決啊所以那個"},{"start":18997.153,"end":19012.991,"text":"我們來探討NEC是一回事解決困難才是重要的所以我們就馬上發動NEC的一個調配的機制第二個我們也發動區域的聯防第三個我們更是希望民眾如果有任何問題是不是優先先到你的"},{"start":19014.313,"end":19030.146,"text":"各地的一個社區診所先做一個screen因為可能很多流感那種病毒在那邊處理就好了這是一個短暫那我們持續努力的就是我們護理的工作環境待遇跟一個環境另外也"},{"start":19030.786,"end":19047.482,"text":"健保署馬上在處理集中症方面的一個給付這個部分也馬上會來5月會來落實我們緊急希望來改善未來我們會更聆聽各方的聲音看看怎麼樣來共同來面對這個醫療界的一個很重要的問題"},{"start":19048.563,"end":19071.422,"text":"部長我想不用聆聽了你直接要到現場到戰場去實地的了解這個我想很多面相要討論也有面相要處理對不對但是我們簡單講一下基層醫學會特別有做這樣的呼籲我在波文也特別提到我不曉得你們到現在為何不可以去掌控"},{"start":19072.122,"end":19100.468,"text":"掌握了全國像遇到這種兩三類型的流感在交互的時候在盛行的時候那你必須要去掌握全國這些急診室的觀察床還是一般的病床還是這個ICU的使用率還是空床率都有掌握而且15分鐘就會換心理次你們怎麼掌握我們有那個平台哪一個平台可以跟我說清楚哪一個平台嗎"},{"start":19102.346,"end":19128.738,"text":"對於急診的及時就醫人數的話其實我們是自動間接醫院的掛號系統所以是說每15分鐘登記一次所以就醫的來診量跟住院的在ICU特別是加護病房因為現況的部分其實塞車的都是那幾家大醫院然後以這樣子的來說的話其實我們在部裡面的政策其實就是重症不漏接然後那個系統基本上面就是連從我們的"},{"start":19131.019,"end":19154.908,"text":"衛福部的緊急藥管理系統裡面去接醫院的掛號的一個系統以上就是就是到醫院的一個掛號系統你們去透過那個系統去掌握掌握病床數ICU急診的觀察床急診的待床人數急診的待床人數然後跟所謂的那個我們加護病房的空床數使用率"},{"start":19156.167,"end":19167.247,"text":"那個系統可以那個系統是在給你做這樣的功能還是只有在統計那個後程的功能"},{"start":19169.317,"end":19197.955,"text":"給民眾的其實很重要的其實民眾需要知道就是哪邊現在有等候很多的後床的人數所以公開給民眾的即時資訊其實是後床的人數每一家醫院的後床人數這是公開給民眾的這是公開給民眾嘛對不對那你衛部你要去掌握嘛對不對那你衛部掌握是透過什麼掌握你是透過這個掌握跟一般民眾去看這個地方的待床數後診數還有我們還要掌握江戶病房的"},{"start":19199.096,"end":19220.367,"text":"你怎麼掌握嘛哪一個系統掌握我們的緊急醫療管理系統緊急醫療管理系統可以去掌握全國現在遇到這樣的疫情情況之下哪一家醫院還有多少的空床宿江戶病房ICU其他沒有嘛急診沒有嘛一般病床沒有嘛或診病人有啊"},{"start":19221.067,"end":19242.201,"text":"後診病人是後診病人的人數嗎還有等候病後床的就是說我們掌握的除了等候的人數就是還沒被看的嘛然後第二個其實是已經看完以後在流管的人數還有就是說流管確定要住院大概這幾個是我們會持續掌握的人數"},{"start":19242.921,"end":19270.932,"text":"沒有 這蘇昭薇來行的 你要讓她說她會聽下去喔妳說我不會聽到 有沒有聽到沒有我再請到一邊就對了Common Lighting 你是怎麼掌握你們有什麼系統去掌握Common Lighting 就是你衛護部成立一個指揮中心我知道對一邊有ICU 我知道對一邊還有多少的控窮力我知道對一邊可以怎麼做讓我去做調配嘛 對不對那你是用哪一個系統也是緊急醫療管理系統緊急醫療管理系統"},{"start":19272.065,"end":19293.511,"text":"不對吧你COVID-19爆發的時候衛生部不是有建設一個叫做全國負壓病房的管理系統當時是為了掌握負壓病房的空床疫嘛請139家隔離醫院每日至結合並追蹤管理系統通報負壓病房隔離病床的收治情形嘛對不對讓指揮中心能夠掌握全國負壓病房的即時動態嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":19295.572,"end":19321.345,"text":"那個是不是啦是不是啦我要講的是這邊在講的是負壓隔離病房對嘛這負壓隔離病房是用這樣處理嘛對不對對然後他要人工通報可是我們這邊是直接接醫院的住院管理系統所以是直接自動通報直接接受醫院的住院的系統對好所以你就可以即時去掌握這家醫院的ICU對的空窗率空窗數對朝偉你朝偉已經在嘆氣了"},{"start":19326.719,"end":19349.686,"text":"你說對嗎?你肯定他說對?有這個系統有這個系統,這個系統可以用嗎?有,可以我覺得有問題吧?柏堆你要了解清楚嗎?他現在跟我講喔,我等一下就TEST喔每天不管是長官或我們自己內部都有都掌握到,譬如說11點跟下午3點的一個狀況"},{"start":19351.286,"end":19361.057,"text":"不過你要看喔你要看COVID-19爆發的時候你們是用什麼呢你們是用這個全國負壓病房的管理系統好然後這個是什麼請139家隔離醫院"},{"start":19366.448,"end":19395.268,"text":"每日是結合並追蹤管理系統通報的這個是人工的我們現在目前這個是我們在講的是傳染病防治所以他是139家醫院我們全國的急救責任醫院是205家所以我們的急救責任醫院的數目遠比隔離醫院來的多然後因為大家人工通報這個增加人工的負荷所以我們這邊的緊急藥管系統是直接借劫然後反而可以減少人力以上"},{"start":19397.369,"end":19415.819,"text":"真的我們的系統是可以確認你現在可以跟部長講說全國現在哪一家就是205家嘛對不對這家醫院哪邊有空床ICU 監護病房還有後床後床的人後床的人數"},{"start":19417.44,"end":19437.336,"text":"後診的人數後診跟後診的人數不一樣後診不一定要去後床啊對 後診就是說還沒看到的啦是嘛是嘛 要看到就不一定要去變床啊等要斷的啦 是啊等要斷的 另外就是ICU 那也很重要嘛ICU的空床現在狀況啊你如果有辦法去斷 等要斷的人沒有代表你如果有辦法去斷 你會扛不住啊"},{"start":19439.6,"end":19455.595,"text":"你說頂環有六個北方 那就另外一個體系沒關係啦 我覺得現在已經是AI時代嘛AI行動創新內閣 如果連這樣的系統都建置得很奇怪如果說今天community的時候還要去借CDC的所謂的結核病追蹤管理系統"},{"start":19456.576,"end":19481.853,"text":"那我就覺得到現在沒有把這個東西建設起來這個衛護部有愧對國人這第一件事情啦第二件事情分級醫療我跟部長講啊部長特別重視分級醫療但分級醫療不處理妥當的話我們下次的開會還是會再討論到分級醫療嘛話說起來很簡單的授意就好了這個我都有特別提供出來數字應該也跟你們一樣你自己可以看醫學中心看診率106年看診率是10.65%嘛113年是再往上"},{"start":19486.976,"end":19493.362,"text":"然後這個113的全國轉整數上轉的數額高達99萬222件下轉的只有10萬08千多件等於是1比9啦如果要說那麼嚴重是1比10啦因為是99萬多嘛"},{"start":19505.851,"end":19517.596,"text":"若是說對的額度要轉上去的上轉的這個數跟下轉數就是不符合比例所以1比10嘛這個情況一直沒有改善過啊所以我才說你們分級醫療在這個地方就連衛福部都沒有再分級了啦你如果去交代這些大醫院小醫院跟你再做分級醫療"},{"start":19531.874,"end":19547.942,"text":"包委員這個病人如果已經到譬如說到台大醫院你要他到中興醫院去住院那是要揮盡多少我們是揮盡多少苦心跟他說你到中興醫院也可以得到很好的一個照顧還有那邊的總醫師都會來看所以這樣的"},{"start":19549.782,"end":19573.655,"text":"所以第一個應該是先讓民眾知道他的問題到哪一邊看是最適合的我剛剛有報告如果他的身體有任何不舒服我們希望他旁邊有社區診所有家庭醫師先跟他過濾他自然就會說你這個我直接去中心醫院斷他就好了不用去台台台你可能要等很久的那裡也沒有床等等這些我相信"},{"start":19575.836,"end":19598.623,"text":"這樣這個才是真的分歧醫療啦不然你講的是一個樣態啦有些樣態這是屬性嘛對不對尤其你跟便衣你要再叫他去買啦這我們知道啦這很清楚但是我現在是要跟你說你一般接受你要上傳去大型便衣就對了其實像轉整當中開到人家的衣繩也會說得很清楚嘛接受衣繩會告訴你代替找什麼人你去代替找衣繩嘛很簡單就這樣改觀嘛但是"},{"start":19600.684,"end":19624.524,"text":"他要大便宜的 其實他想要大便宜的 救地的 遺地的他可以一般接受嘛對啊 啊這要怎麼處理這要怎麼存 這要怎麼存上轉的這樣處理有高的測試啊 如果他轉下去每一個也給他幾百塊的一個下轉的費用啊所以那個 所以這個也 這幾天來一直在鼓勵啊"},{"start":19625.445,"end":19639.374,"text":"這個我是確定知道的啦因為我們很鼓勵攤辦性病就盡量轉回社區去去看就好了在大型的醫院的醫師有感想說你去哪家診所嗎轉到哪家診所去嗎"},{"start":19640.461,"end":19657.789,"text":"其實現在都有社區醫療群的制度是沒有錯啦所以那個都大概我台大醫院我們上轉藥到的醫院會很明確啦我們下轉藥到其他診所下轉的醫院有很多有很多它的轄下可能有一百家診所對譬如台大醫院的社區醫療群有五個每一個大概有十個"},{"start":19659.33,"end":19687.939,"text":"也診所沒關係啦 不用時間管理啦我不要讓教育為難我自己做主席我想你能夠去掃去我們參考嗎下轉的情況為什麼會這麼低嘛你們的檢討是在什麼地方我們怎麼樣來改善一個星期可以給我們吧好 先保持先保持謝謝 感謝謝謝劉建國委員 謝謝部長王宏威委員王宏威委員不在"},{"start":19689.882,"end":19710.123,"text":"羅賓才 羅賓才 羅賓才委員不在陳培宇委員 咨詢好 謝謝主席謝謝劉建國學長好 那主席我請部長 謝謝"},{"start":19717.068,"end":19738.262,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了今天的議題我們當然關心啦不過因為還有另外一個兒少全法修法在即兒少全法的部分有一個部分我認為是目前我們在幾次公聽會當中或者是目前衛福部給我們的資料裡面我們已經都做了研究也跟你們所知跟你們討論過我們覺得有匱乏的地方我這裡就直接跟部長討論好來下一頁"},{"start":19743.758,"end":19760.824,"text":"主要就是因為目前安置在安置機構裡面的兒少在2024年的數字有5000多位將近6000位而這些孩子們他不管年紀多大他都是因為原生家庭的有一些問題沒有辦法照顧這些小孩"},{"start":19761.324,"end":19779.966,"text":"所以這些小孩都必須要被安置在安置機構裡頭那部長應該可以想像像這樣子原生家庭有一些創傷導致這些孩子必須被放在安置機構裡頭我們可以想像他們在心理健康的資源所需要的服務量應該比一般家庭的小孩來得多對不對 普遍上是的"},{"start":19781.428,"end":19809.502,"text":"那部長如果你也認同那我要跟部長反映喔目前很多安置機構我知道相關的法規都有規定不管是兒少福利機構或是團體家庭所謂的團家都有規定有相關的標準也有說要給心理輔導機制那我知道你們衛福部也說有非常多機制都已經在進行了可是實務上的狀況就是可能這些機構彼此的服務品質有一些落差或者是有一些機構的所在地理位置很偏鄉很多人不要去"},{"start":19810.282,"end":19831.637,"text":"那他們能不能真的找到夠好的心理師也好社工師也好相關的心理健康資源進到現場服務小孩我們其實是很多擔心因為很多現場的聲音告訴我們是不足的那在很多公聽會之後呢我們在2月6號我們辦公室在2月6號發函要求衛福部在未來的兒少法修法會議專家團體諮詢會當中"},{"start":19834.839,"end":19852.575,"text":"應該要找心理學精神醫學的專家學者來開會討論兒少法修法的時候只要談論到安置兒少心理機構的時候我們應該要更專業的心理健康支持我們希望你們三週內給我們相關的會議規劃好 沒問題不是 部長你說沒問題"},{"start":19854.296,"end":19869.025,"text":"你的同仁現在要哭了 來部長來看下一張結果三個禮拜後你們給我的回應是這樣你們衛福部說不用他說已經有相關資源了 都已經Ready了不需要為了這些安置機構的小孩再有什麼方案 再有什麼專家會議 他說不用不一定有他說不用 要怎麼樣"},{"start":19873.808,"end":19897.829,"text":"因為那個委員是專家啦我回去了解一下我覺得應該您講的有道理我們再來重新檢討因為不是只有心理醫生告訴我們也不是只有心理師告訴我們是很多安置機構的社工老師還有在裡面服務的心理師他們真的就告訴我們這幾年我們社會越來越困難越來越複雜很多被送到安置機構的小孩他們的心理創傷的問題越來越複雜"},{"start":19900.131,"end":19926.559,"text":"那如果有夠多專業的人進來幫忙我覺得對孩子是好事對機構裡面這些在照顧小孩的大人也是好事保重對不對對所以我很謝謝你們同仁給我們這些回應我也知道衛福部在很多心理健康真的已經非常非常非常認真我也知道我們花了很多錢很多資源希望協助國人整體的身心健康所以我今天沒有要質疑這個我只是要拜託部長我們在安置機構的部分是"},{"start":19927.179,"end":19949.528,"text":"未來兒少全法修法嗎我們把這個部分先聽聽專家的聲音不管是邀請安置機構的社工老師心理老師或是這些安置機構主持人來是加上心理學精神醫學的相關專家好不好好我想這個部分是我非常重視的我本身也是台大心理系的和平教授所以我對心理的一個重要性那你要為你的專業同僚那個來所以您的"},{"start":19954.89,"end":19973.06,"text":"您的指導我個人非常的認同部長我不敢說指導啦就拜託啦我們為孩子爭取權益其實就是在為大人更好的工作環境爭取權益好最後一題來很快很快那另外一個比較困難的我先說我自己承認這題比較難但是我們花一些時間長一點時間來討論"},{"start":19975.001,"end":20003.78,"text":"我們後續在很願意跟衛福部直接召開討論會議就是這個安置機構的離開安置機構的小孩呢在兒少全法原來的條文59跟62條要求政府要追蹤輔導至少一年事實上現在也有這樣做那衛福部你們修法說要改成以後要提供家庭支持還有自立生活服務這個正向完全給予肯定也很謝謝衛福部願意陪孩子一起面對這個現實可是有一個比較大的困境就是目前我們政府提供支持服務到21歲"},{"start":20005.181,"end":20026.942,"text":"可是在國外他們有發現很多21歲就算已經年滿21歲的小孩但是我剛剛說他來自有創傷的原生家庭他來自複雜的社區環境他可能甚至在學校的學習都沒有那麼有把握的情況下我們很難想像他一離開安置機構他就要自己立刻獨立自主生活其實也有很多兒少有跟我們來反映這個現況"},{"start":20028.183,"end":20039.071,"text":"但我知道我們把21歲延伸到23或25有資源分配的問題有資源分配的困境但我們有沒有機會往這裡去想部長你覺得呢"},{"start":20040.752,"end":20059.467,"text":"我覺得如果專家覺得這樣子是必要的我們絕對仔細的來研議啊是是那至少我們開啟研議的討論好不好好好那這個部分我們辦公室也會持續來追蹤好今天非常謝謝部長兩個議題知恥而哨都給予正面的回應我們一起努力謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝部長葉研資葉研資葉研資委員不在楊耀委員你沒質詢嗎"},{"start":20080.529,"end":20081.811,"text":"謝謝主席 主席我請一下邱部長"},{"start":20088.174,"end":20108.865,"text":"委員好 部長好 剛好就有幸聽到劉建國委員的質詢您在答覆的時候有關分級醫療的轉整的部分由上級往下級轉"},{"start":20111.207,"end":20117.777,"text":"你剛好舉到了台大轉中心那本席剛好在"},{"start":20119.082,"end":20143.218,"text":"前兩個禮拜有一個服務案件就是很典型就是台大轉中心那我現在就直接跟部長探討一下病患家屬的感受我大概不止一次在這個執行台上講過就是要落實分級醫療必須要每一個每一層的層級"},{"start":20146.027,"end":20169.017,"text":"負擔有他應該要有的醫療責任對不對配置人力跟種種是這樣子就是去台大急診那必須要住院還蠻急還蠻嚴重的可是台大就是沒有病床後來就說服了"},{"start":20170.592,"end":20194.404,"text":"病患家屬就轉到中心轉到中心以後當然就有病床有病床是可以安心治療的第一步我想應該是這樣子對病患也好對病患家屬也好就是安心治療的第一步可是他大概在住院的第三天就有跟我講他覺得"},{"start":20196.291,"end":20211.736,"text":"我不敢評斷,這個是家屬的感受,他覺得在中心的各項檢查好像不如台大那麼嚴謹"},{"start":20217.918,"end":20234.09,"text":"我講是病患家屬的感受並不是指控中興醫院這個我必須要很明確的講中興醫院的醫療品質也非常高所以我才說這是家屬的感受家屬為什麼會有這個感受"},{"start":20235.888,"end":20258.098,"text":"其實從這裡就可以看出來,由上轉下有多困難因為台灣一般的民眾,我人已經到醫學中心了,我就不願意到區域醫院到區域醫院了,你說要轉第七醫院,他也會有抗拒"},{"start":20260.203,"end":20264.49,"text":"這個是一件很困難的事情所以劉建國委員剛剛的數據10比1我個人是覺得其實已經算"},{"start":20272.87,"end":20299.76,"text":"也接受上轉下的通常出於無奈的比較多啦應該這麼講,要不然應該很難啦,對不對所以分級醫療的部分我還是這樣子講那另外還有一個問題就是上轉下現在我的看法,我的觀察連澎湖兩家醫院都有降載的情形"},{"start":20301.687,"end":20323.223,"text":"就是病床降載的情形所以也不見得上要轉下就有得轉因為病床降載也好 關床也好是一個全面性的問題並不限於哪一層級的醫院院長我這樣子講 對不對"},{"start":20330.12,"end":20347.616,"text":"所以人力才是問題我們今天講集中症我還是要講一下二月底的時候台灣急診醫學會就已經有警示今年的急診的用篩大概前所未有的嚴重"},{"start":20351.28,"end":20377.736,"text":"其實這個問題產生其實會引發很多後續的問題所以衛福部的新聞稿曾經指出說衛福部在春節的年後就已經發現醫院有擁塞的問題也開了四次會可是二月底"},{"start":20378.666,"end":20389.481,"text":"台灣醫學會還發出警訊,到底為什麼?你們開會在前嘛,那他們警示在後,問題也一直存在嘛"},{"start":20390.601,"end":20413.591,"text":"部長回答或市長回答就可以因為我先瞭解順序一下啦那個第一次開會是2月3號那急診醫學會是幾月份第一次會議是2月8號2月8號對不對2月8號對然後第二次是2月13那急診是是2月底發出的警示2月底發出的警示2月底台花對那其實這中間我跟急診醫學會的理事長"},{"start":20415.834,"end":20442.392,"text":"不曉得互動多少次了啦那急診醫學會站在關心國家的整個體制畫出的我們真的我完全他畫了以後我們隔天還是還是在一起啊所以我會尊重說每一個專業團體站在國家的立場沒有我覺得急診醫學會呢我們就是來解決問題這樣子也是出於善意對我覺得他們是出自於善意想要幫"},{"start":20444.353,"end":20464.32,"text":"看看呼籲大家共同來關心這個問題那大家來解決這樣子我現在問的就是說為什麼我們的作為會慢半拍啦我現在問的是真的因為你們開會其實開很早嘛就表示你們有問題意識嘛部長你懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":20472.004,"end":20478.57,"text":"對 因為前三次當然是有請林靜儀次長主持那他可能要收集"},{"start":20479.54,"end":20504.113,"text":"第一次的意見他提出看怎麼做第二次可能在領悉共識可能那個劉市長都有參與他解釋一下我補充一下其實急診醫學會會提出這個他的重點在於大家都一直在講急診優篩其實是月優篩所以我們前面開幾次會的部分的話其實是第一個院內先處理"},{"start":20504.813,"end":20525.529,"text":"然後那個急診醫學會覺得是說這必須要TOP DOWN下來再來呼籲所以他們決定是說用這樣的方式的話其實應該是全院一起來協助因為不是只有急診的問題包括了人力這些其實才是產生這次在因應這一塊的時候他們覺得長期來的消化這個急診"},{"start":20526.329,"end":20552.866,"text":"這一次事件由春節這樣子延伸過來再加上那個傳染病的這一塊的人數然後之後又可能會因為春節之後恢復正常了門診的病人又要門診的病人又要進來了那原本給急診的這條綠色通道就會被關他們擔心這個所以才會在2月22號的時候提出這樣的聲明以上對啦我其實其實"},{"start":20554.686,"end":20573.372,"text":"並不是要跟你們討論台灣急診協會為什麼發啦我直接跟部長和市長說明好了啦我覺得假如人力不做增補隨時會用篩啦"},{"start":20576.69,"end":20604.707,"text":"因為台灣的健保這麼可貴就醫的可親性這麼高造成了很多後續的問題啦柏君你有沒有聽到我的意思我就是覺得這個不只是今年啦我相信而且根據我這裡的資料是是急診專科住院醫生的招生率是"},{"start":20606.488,"end":20621.595,"text":"是低到讓我們覺得有點恐怖因為急診專科它本身就是一個必須要長期生活在高度壓力緊張的環境的一個工作"},{"start":20622.795,"end":20642.208,"text":"就在醫生的範圍裡面他算是比起其他的醫生他可能生活的壓力更大工作的壓力更大那我們假如說沒有辦法招足一定的人力我也知道健保署很"},{"start":20644.5,"end":20670.745,"text":"很有心要解決問題啦所以我們好像又撥了42億要來增加集中症的給付然後提高急診護理師的待遇不過我還是要講就是說有一些事情確實可以用錢解決有一些事情沒有辦法啦這個是比較長久的問題就藉由今天這個機會跟部長"},{"start":20675.607,"end":20694.858,"text":"我們真的是必須要增加人力人力不增加永遠都會堵塞因為我想健保制度已經走到這裡也不可能就醫的可親信把它降低不可能啦"},{"start":20696.059,"end":20720.516,"text":"假如不可能的話就只能增加人力設備的投資是比較快而且比較小事人力的培育比較困難不管是醫生護理師我覺得有很多不是待遇的問題的好不好我們有一些其他的問題我們就下一次有機會再做探討"},{"start":20728.341,"end":20748.137,"text":"何欣淳 何欣淳委員不在許新穎 許新穎委員不在鄭振前 鄭振前 鄭振前委員不在林楚英 林楚英 林楚英委員不在王逸川 王逸川 王逸川委員不在本日會議詢問全部結束"},{"start":20753.436,"end":20773.792,"text":"那個臨時提案因為提案委員不在我們就不處理下次再提不要管他下次要再提了委員王一川所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告與尋討完畢"},{"start":20775.373,"end":20791.688,"text":"委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者相關機關以兩週內書面答覆委員另行要求期限者從期所定本日會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":20831.869,"end":20850.443,"text":"谢谢大家"}]}},{"id":"16511","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16511","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d6d254b92567b84ce14968be1351dde787a524d1b3d409a1aa46a5bb05f68efa15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-13T08:30:50+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:45:00+08:00","duration":15250,"影片長度":"04:14:10","委員發言時間":"08:30:50 - 12:45:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1511.3897187500002,"end":1511.9465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1883.3653437500002,"end":1893.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1896.2072187500003,"end":1899.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1900.5272187500002,"end":1925.5359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1926.05909375,"end":1930.3115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1930.83471875,"end":1931.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1932.38721875,"end":1935.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1936.5384687500002,"end":1945.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1953.2953437500003,"end":1970.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1971.5540937500002,"end":2031.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2032.5403437500001,"end":2034.0422187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2035.5103437500002,"end":2037.1978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2037.4847187500002,"end":2039.0203437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2041.07909375,"end":2057.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2058.3590937500003,"end":2061.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2062.9490937500004,"end":2072.2303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2072.8209687500002,"end":2078.9297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2079.5203437500004,"end":2090.9278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2091.41721875,"end":2092.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2093.72909375,"end":2096.5303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2097.2390937500004,"end":2102.3184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2104.02284375,"end":2113.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2117.16846875,"end":2130.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2131.93409375,"end":2132.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2132.9297187500006,"end":2134.2965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2135.7478437500004,"end":2138.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2140.37159375,"end":2146.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2147.23971875,"end":2153.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2153.68596875,"end":2160.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2161.53284375,"end":2167.5740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2168.0634687500005,"end":2172.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2174.9315937500005,"end":2180.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2182.1540937500004,"end":2190.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2192.5153437500003,"end":2195.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2205.22221875,"end":2316.4453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2317.5928437500006,"end":2323.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2332.1559687500003,"end":2387.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2388.73784375,"end":2403.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2403.7565937500003,"end":2466.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2466.5653437500005,"end":2493.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2494.7634687500004,"end":2497.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2505.71534375,"end":2507.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2507.9765937500006,"end":2708.4684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2709.0084687500002,"end":2728.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2730.0515937500004,"end":2732.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2740.04159375,"end":2743.2478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2750.14971875,"end":2752.2928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2752.0059687500006,"end":2753.3728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2754.97596875,"end":2859.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2860.2928437500004,"end":2864.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2872.1559687500003,"end":3083.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2984.2734687500006,"end":2984.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3084.0553437500002,"end":3100.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3101.92596875,"end":3107.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3116.2528437500005,"end":3117.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3118.09221875,"end":3119.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3120.4715937500005,"end":3143.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3143.89409375,"end":3164.7009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3165.46034375,"end":3192.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3193.37159375,"end":3252.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3252.72096875,"end":3395.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3397.4578437500004,"end":3402.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3410.0128437500007,"end":3414.3328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3414.55221875,"end":3448.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3448.4540937500005,"end":3509.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3511.22909375,"end":3513.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3513.7772187500004,"end":3515.2790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3520.4090937500005,"end":3597.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3597.83159375,"end":3610.3359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3611.2303437500004,"end":3650.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3653.2997187500005,"end":3662.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3671.9972187500007,"end":3691.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3691.89284375,"end":3694.0528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3694.6603437500007,"end":3696.3815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3696.8203437500006,"end":3698.1872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3698.6259687500005,"end":3741.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3741.6403437500003,"end":3771.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3772.84221875,"end":3781.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3781.2965937500003,"end":3817.3078437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3817.8309687500005,"end":3842.1309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3843.0253437500005,"end":3846.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3846.90659375,"end":3883.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3884.52096875,"end":3909.7490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3910.3397187500004,"end":4039.4334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4042.06596875,"end":4051.7184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4052.5284687500007,"end":4056.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4056.52784375,"end":4056.5615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4057.6247187500003,"end":4086.4978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4089.5353437500007,"end":4089.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4089.55221875,"end":4091.4590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4092.69096875,"end":4093.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4096.639718750001,"end":4108.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4111.05096875,"end":4111.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4111.962218750001,"end":4155.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4120.19721875,"end":4120.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4155.38159375,"end":4160.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4159.262843750001,"end":4162.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4162.671593749999,"end":4164.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4164.3759687500005,"end":4165.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4166.147843750001,"end":4166.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4166.68784375,"end":4186.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4186.33034375,"end":4187.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4188.270968750001,"end":4196.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4196.40471875,"end":4244.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4244.059718750001,"end":4244.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4244.751593749999,"end":4264.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4265.54159375,"end":4299.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4299.29159375,"end":4305.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4307.526593750001,"end":4316.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4310.614718750001,"end":4310.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4315.626593749999,"end":4318.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4316.335343750001,"end":4316.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4317.887843750001,"end":4332.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4331.87721875,"end":4359.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4337.057843750001,"end":4337.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4359.82221875,"end":4363.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4363.7372187500005,"end":4366.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4366.15034375,"end":4369.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4370.571593750001,"end":4376.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4377.827843749999,"end":4402.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4401.452843749999,"end":4405.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4405.030343750001,"end":4407.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4407.42659375,"end":4409.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4408.860968749999,"end":4413.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4413.029093749999,"end":4427.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4426.74846875,"end":4452.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4453.107218749999,"end":4461.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4461.595343749999,"end":4466.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4462.92846875,"end":4462.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4463.02971875,"end":4463.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4466.87721875,"end":4471.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4471.062218749999,"end":4472.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4472.12534375,"end":4478.706593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4477.60971875,"end":4527.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4527.8465937500005,"end":4542.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4543.50659375,"end":4563.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4563.57096875,"end":4576.767218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4577.25659375,"end":4578.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4578.876593749999,"end":4581.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4581.52596875,"end":4582.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4582.960343750001,"end":4583.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4583.382218750001,"end":4643.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4644.4697187500005,"end":4663.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4663.065968749999,"end":4698.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4664.02784375,"end":4664.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4698.874718749999,"end":4699.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4699.41471875,"end":4699.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4699.448468750001,"end":4700.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4699.93784375,"end":4699.954718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4702.114718750001,"end":4707.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4715.07471875,"end":4718.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4718.989718750001,"end":4720.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4726.04346875,"end":4816.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4816.392218749999,"end":4827.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4827.39471875,"end":4827.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4827.4959687499995,"end":4827.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4827.61409375,"end":4926.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4827.647843750001,"end":4827.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4888.19534375,"end":4888.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4888.88721875,"end":4889.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4926.029093749999,"end":4944.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4944.4228437500005,"end":4947.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4947.089093750001,"end":4947.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4947.122843749999,"end":4947.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4947.15659375,"end":4962.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4962.040343750001,"end":5111.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":4967.49096875,"end":4970.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4970.342843750001,"end":4970.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5111.940968750001,"end":5122.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5121.94784375,"end":5126.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5127.128468750001,"end":5143.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5133.557843750001,"end":5134.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5138.7215937500005,"end":5139.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5140.679093750001,"end":5174.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5163.966593749999,"end":5164.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5174.44596875,"end":5179.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5179.204718749999,"end":5180.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5180.284718750001,"end":5182.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5183.11971875,"end":5190.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5185.077218750001,"end":5185.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5190.25784375,"end":5196.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5196.7040937500005,"end":5197.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5197.14284375,"end":5229.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5229.509093750001,"end":5243.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5242.99221875,"end":5321.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5244.224093750001,"end":5244.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5321.35971875,"end":5331.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5331.2822187500005,"end":5332.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5332.56471875,"end":5345.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5345.8622187500005,"end":5357.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5347.920968750001,"end":5349.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5357.657843749999,"end":5358.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5358.045968750001,"end":5359.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5360.17221875,"end":5366.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5363.479718750001,"end":5363.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5363.96909375,"end":5365.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5367.10784375,"end":5368.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5369.6053437499995,"end":5371.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5379.71346875,"end":5381.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5381.9072187500005,"end":5383.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5390.44596875,"end":5391.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5391.272843750001,"end":5424.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5424.5165937500005,"end":5443.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5443.97346875,"end":5449.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5450.9090937500005,"end":5455.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5457.33846875,"end":5494.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5496.792218750001,"end":5498.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5499.01971875,"end":5499.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5499.05346875,"end":5499.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5499.1884687500005,"end":5499.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5499.8465937500005,"end":5500.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5500.352843750001,"end":5513.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5512.23284375,"end":5529.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5530.27221875,"end":5531.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5530.71096875,"end":5531.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5531.55471875,"end":5544.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5544.278468750001,"end":5569.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5544.312218749999,"end":5544.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5569.675343750001,"end":5572.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5572.61159375,"end":5614.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5605.28159375,"end":5605.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5614.66409375,"end":5637.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5623.97909375,"end":5625.126593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5625.3290937500005,"end":5625.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5637.749093750001,"end":5681.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5681.97846875,"end":5685.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5686.821593750001,"end":5705.282843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5704.624718749999,"end":5718.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5718.647843750001,"end":5724.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5723.35596875,"end":5750.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5749.19159375,"end":5762.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5759.890343749999,"end":5761.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5761.544093750001,"end":5771.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5764.51409375,"end":5764.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5765.02034375,"end":5765.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5771.2303437499995,"end":5785.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5783.83596875,"end":5845.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5791.3622187500005,"end":5794.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5842.729718750001,"end":5842.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5842.89846875,"end":5843.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5846.12159375,"end":5846.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5846.138468749999,"end":5846.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5846.72909375,"end":5851.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5851.79159375,"end":5877.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5877.981593750001,"end":5905.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5905.75784375,"end":5906.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5907.782843750001,"end":5910.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5916.979718750001,"end":5921.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5923.66221875,"end":5924.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5925.48471875,"end":5926.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5926.919093750001,"end":5978.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5978.995343750001,"end":5997.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5982.43784375,"end":5982.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5997.28784375,"end":6061.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6061.80096875,"end":6118.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6095.78721875,"end":6095.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6095.82096875,"end":6096.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6096.05721875,"end":6096.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6118.247843749999,"end":6200.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6200.294093750001,"end":6252.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6252.825968749999,"end":6303.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6255.91409375,"end":6255.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6255.930968750001,"end":6256.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6256.13346875,"end":6256.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6275.08409375,"end":6275.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6275.97846875,"end":6276.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6276.029093749999,"end":6276.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6289.107218749999,"end":6289.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6289.157843750001,"end":6289.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6289.3603437500005,"end":6289.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6295.78971875,"end":6296.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6302.607218749999,"end":6305.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6304.37909375,"end":6312.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6308.17596875,"end":6308.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6312.76596875,"end":6316.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6317.102843750001,"end":6396.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6397.47846875,"end":6421.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6422.35221875,"end":6444.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6444.8465937500005,"end":6543.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6476.30159375,"end":6477.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6489.80159375,"end":6490.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6513.47721875,"end":6513.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6517.5947187500005,"end":6518.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6518.4384687500005,"end":6518.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6518.48909375,"end":6518.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6518.59034375,"end":6518.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6518.708468750001,"end":6519.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6519.19784375,"end":6519.231593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6543.44721875,"end":6543.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6543.464093750001,"end":6543.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6543.66659375,"end":6543.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6543.700343750001,"end":6543.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6543.90284375,"end":6543.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6543.919718749999,"end":6545.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6546.19784375,"end":6548.526593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6554.78721875,"end":6557.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6566.481593750001,"end":6569.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6569.8397187499995,"end":6570.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6574.46346875,"end":6694.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6694.765343749999,"end":6696.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6696.975968750001,"end":6710.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6710.96534375,"end":6731.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6712.720343750001,"end":6713.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6730.169093750001,"end":6734.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6734.87721875,"end":6736.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6734.894093750001,"end":6734.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6736.46346875,"end":6742.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6740.88471875,"end":6789.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6790.27784375,"end":6796.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6796.15034375,"end":6797.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6800.419718749999,"end":6803.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6803.474093750001,"end":6811.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6812.92409375,"end":6820.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6815.16846875,"end":6815.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6820.28159375,"end":6869.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6870.872843749999,"end":6904.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6904.2684687500005,"end":6918.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6912.06471875,"end":6914.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6915.186593750001,"end":6916.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6917.144093750001,"end":6926.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6922.74659375,"end":6932.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6932.82096875,"end":6952.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6953.02034375,"end":7031.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7031.97846875,"end":7071.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7071.887843750001,"end":7114.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7101.90846875,"end":7102.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7103.190968750001,"end":7104.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7104.67596875,"end":7104.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7114.294718749999,"end":7131.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7133.07659375,"end":7141.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7147.97721875,"end":7150.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7151.757218750001,"end":7151.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7151.97659375,"end":7152.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7157.22471875,"end":7229.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7230.0740937499995,"end":7232.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7233.56721875,"end":7260.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7259.4872187500005,"end":7276.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7276.260968750001,"end":7276.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7276.3622187500005,"end":7295.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7295.63346875,"end":7299.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7303.80096875,"end":7323.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7323.038468750001,"end":7332.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7332.977843750001,"end":7354.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7337.55096875,"end":7338.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7338.7997187500005,"end":7338.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7338.968468750001,"end":7339.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7339.03596875,"end":7339.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7352.36721875,"end":7406.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7374.6590937500005,"end":7374.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7374.67596875,"end":7374.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7374.692843750001,"end":7375.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7407.2615937499995,"end":7415.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7414.872218750001,"end":7416.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7415.935343749999,"end":7431.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7429.958468750001,"end":7456.907843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7456.907843750001,"end":7465.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7465.4803437499995,"end":7490.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7467.62346875,"end":7467.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7488.2615937499995,"end":7489.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7490.26971875,"end":7499.2303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7499.061593750001,"end":7533.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7502.942843750001,"end":7503.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7523.54721875,"end":7523.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7523.564093750001,"end":7523.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7523.59784375,"end":7523.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7533.8240937499995,"end":7534.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7534.22909375,"end":7544.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7548.28596875,"end":7560.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7549.55159375,"end":7549.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7549.56846875,"end":7550.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7561.1278437500005,"end":7561.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7562.1572187500005,"end":7564.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7564.09784375,"end":7582.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7581.276593750001,"end":7607.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7584.263468749999,"end":7584.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7585.579718750001,"end":7586.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7589.747843749999,"end":7590.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7590.33846875,"end":7590.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7607.73659375,"end":7613.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7613.03534375,"end":7618.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7618.75596875,"end":7618.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7618.823468750001,"end":7620.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7620.00471875,"end":7620.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7620.02159375,"end":7631.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7620.038468750001,"end":7620.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7631.46284375,"end":7639.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7639.66409375,"end":7650.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7650.970343750001,"end":7671.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7670.714093750001,"end":7696.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7696.46534375,"end":7699.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7699.36784375,"end":7705.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7706.11784375,"end":7728.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7707.467843750001,"end":7710.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7710.20159375,"end":7710.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7728.544718749999,"end":7728.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7728.780968750001,"end":7766.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7754.36346875,"end":7756.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7764.11721875,"end":7772.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7771.93034375,"end":7771.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7774.93409375,"end":7780.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7786.03784375,"end":7788.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7789.32846875,"end":7790.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7796.280968750001,"end":7800.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7801.37721875,"end":7853.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7853.16659375,"end":7853.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7853.234093750001,"end":7860.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7861.249718750001,"end":7954.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7954.905968750001,"end":7966.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7959.732218749999,"end":7959.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7965.43596875,"end":7996.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":7997.329718750001,"end":8008.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8009.49659375,"end":8021.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8022.01784375,"end":8038.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8033.22284375,"end":8033.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8038.52159375,"end":8077.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8077.9247187500005,"end":8093.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8090.378468750001,"end":8091.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8092.825343750001,"end":8095.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8094.698468750001,"end":8109.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8096.4872187500005,"end":8097.685343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8098.157843750001,"end":8098.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8109.6834687499995,"end":8115.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8114.6278437500005,"end":8165.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8165.421593750001,"end":8264.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8264.96721875,"end":8270.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8270.097218750001,"end":8287.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8288.929718750001,"end":8322.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8324.02971875,"end":8364.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8326.61159375,"end":8326.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8328.315968750001,"end":8328.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8328.36659375,"end":8329.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8329.04159375,"end":8329.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8333.15909375,"end":8333.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8333.175968750002,"end":8333.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8333.31096875,"end":8333.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8333.56409375,"end":8333.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8364.10784375,"end":8367.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8367.567218750002,"end":8374.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8367.60096875,"end":8370.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8373.97971875,"end":8384.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8375.144093750001,"end":8376.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8384.03721875,"end":8384.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8384.10471875,"end":8385.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8384.13846875,"end":8407.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8407.206593750001,"end":8407.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8407.645343750002,"end":8410.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8407.67909375,"end":8407.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8407.746593750002,"end":8407.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8407.797218750002,"end":8407.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8407.93221875,"end":8408.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8408.269718750002,"end":8408.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8410.04159375,"end":8410.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8410.09221875,"end":8410.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8411.796593750001,"end":8451.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8541.649718750003,"end":8543.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8544.46784375,"end":8544.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8544.97409375,"end":8545.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8545.750343750002,"end":8545.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8545.78409375,"end":8546.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8546.020343750002,"end":8549.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8549.800343750001,"end":8549.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8586.570968750002,"end":8587.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8587.97159375,"end":8588.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8588.089718750001,"end":8588.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8650.86471875,"end":8652.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8652.484718750002,"end":8652.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8652.72096875,"end":8652.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8656.93971875,"end":8656.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8656.99034375,"end":8657.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8657.969093750002,"end":8658.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8658.964718750001,"end":8659.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8687.027843750002,"end":8687.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8687.68596875,"end":8689.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9062.61471875,"end":9069.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9075.051593750002,"end":9075.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9075.06846875,"end":9076.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9076.43534375,"end":9076.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9076.48596875,"end":9076.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9076.50284375,"end":9076.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9076.789718750002,"end":9077.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9078.98346875,"end":9079.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9084.02909375,"end":9084.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9085.51409375,"end":9086.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9088.41659375,"end":9089.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9090.812843750002,"end":9092.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9093.614093750002,"end":9097.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9100.43159375,"end":9101.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9101.055968750003,"end":9149.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9149.95971875,"end":9188.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9188.70471875,"end":9192.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9192.855968750002,"end":9206.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9193.176593750002,"end":9193.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9206.91284375,"end":9228.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9228.445343750001,"end":9232.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9232.63034375,"end":9238.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9238.90784375,"end":9245.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9245.30346875,"end":9253.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9250.99034375,"end":9251.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9252.812843750002,"end":9265.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9254.196593750003,"end":9254.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9254.21346875,"end":9254.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9265.70534375,"end":9269.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9269.215343750002,"end":9285.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9285.415343750003,"end":9291.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9292.519718750002,"end":9294.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9296.417843750001,"end":9297.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9298.35846875,"end":9307.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9299.320343750001,"end":9300.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9305.699093750001,"end":9314.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9316.414718750002,"end":9316.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9316.836593750002,"end":9319.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9319.28346875,"end":9320.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9319.317218750002,"end":9323.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9321.207218750002,"end":9354.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9355.159718750001,"end":9368.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9369.452843750001,"end":9414.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9398.629718750002,"end":9399.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9412.99034375,"end":9463.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9414.94784375,"end":9415.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9464.644718750002,"end":9477.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9477.672218750002,"end":9485.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9486.008468750002,"end":9503.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9504.38534375,"end":9516.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9516.704093750002,"end":9524.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9527.352218750002,"end":9527.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9528.449093750001,"end":9528.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9528.465968750003,"end":9528.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9528.70221875,"end":9528.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9528.85409375,"end":9529.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9529.714718750001,"end":9595.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9545.57721875,"end":9545.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9545.965343750002,"end":9546.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9546.589718750001,"end":9547.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9547.04534375,"end":9547.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9558.11534375,"end":9558.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9559.617218750001,"end":9559.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9594.34596875,"end":9611.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9596.843468750001,"end":9597.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9597.87284375,"end":9599.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9602.10846875,"end":9602.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9604.133468750002,"end":9604.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9610.86659375,"end":9621.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9615.844718750002,"end":9616.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9619.692218750002,"end":9632.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9621.81846875,"end":9622.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9625.41284375,"end":9629.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9634.99784375,"end":9635.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9636.347843750002,"end":9646.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9645.49409375,"end":9649.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9647.19846875,"end":9648.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9649.25721875,"end":9655.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9655.24784375,"end":9670.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9665.997218750003,"end":9666.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9666.030968750001,"end":9666.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9669.97971875,"end":9670.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9670.215968750003,"end":9672.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9672.02159375,"end":9672.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9672.19034375,"end":9672.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9672.22409375,"end":9672.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9672.274718750003,"end":9673.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9673.641593750002,"end":9678.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9674.29971875,"end":9674.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9675.56534375,"end":9676.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9676.965968750003,"end":9677.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9679.81784375,"end":9686.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9694.988468750002,"end":9698.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9703.425968750002,"end":9703.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9704.016593750002,"end":9704.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9704.03346875,"end":9705.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9705.636593750001,"end":9709.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9709.93971875,"end":9714.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9714.293468750002,"end":9731.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9731.55659375,"end":9735.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9735.589718750001,"end":9738.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9739.605968750002,"end":9743.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9743.47034375,"end":9746.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9746.49096875,"end":9759.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9759.97409375,"end":9763.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9763.72034375,"end":9765.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9765.644093750001,"end":9768.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9768.765968750002,"end":9796.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9797.082218750002,"end":9805.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9819.812843750002,"end":9821.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9835.81034375,"end":9845.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9853.664093750001,"end":9855.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9856.313468750002,"end":9857.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9859.38471875,"end":9860.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9863.839718750001,"end":9866.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9868.09221875,"end":9869.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9870.437843750002,"end":9870.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9871.450343750003,"end":9872.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9874.69034375,"end":9876.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9878.47034375,"end":9880.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9881.11971875,"end":9882.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9882.503468750001,"end":9884.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9886.249718750001,"end":9888.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9888.54471875,"end":9888.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9891.02534375,"end":9895.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9893.910968750002,"end":9894.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9895.969718750002,"end":9896.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9896.374718750001,"end":9897.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9897.84284375,"end":9902.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9903.20909375,"end":9913.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9913.33409375,"end":9916.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9917.316593750002,"end":9918.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9918.41346875,"end":9931.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9931.879718750002,"end":9941.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9943.33784375,"end":9944.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9945.261593750001,"end":9948.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9949.21034375,"end":9952.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9953.327843750001,"end":9954.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9954.593468750001,"end":9954.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9954.67784375,"end":9954.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9954.711593750002,"end":9955.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9955.67346875,"end":9956.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9958.238468750002,"end":9959.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9959.53784375,"end":9961.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9965.039093750001,"end":9965.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9971.50221875,"end":9973.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9977.273468750001,"end":10013.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10013.79096875,"end":10018.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10018.566593750002,"end":10020.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10021.53659375,"end":10025.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10025.856593750003,"end":10040.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10040.63909375,"end":10044.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10046.190968750001,"end":10049.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10049.81909375,"end":10129.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10052.063468750002,"end":10052.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10129.671593750001,"end":10132.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10132.82721875,"end":10143.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10144.69034375,"end":10159.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10159.624718750001,"end":10168.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10169.125343750002,"end":10170.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10170.37409375,"end":10173.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10176.145343750002,"end":10178.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10177.52909375,"end":10177.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10179.48659375,"end":10180.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10180.262843750003,"end":10182.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10181.410343750002,"end":10182.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10182.355343750001,"end":10210.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10210.469093750002,"end":10229.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10230.33096875,"end":10259.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10261.02659375,"end":10261.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10261.38096875,"end":10262.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10262.54534375,"end":10271.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10271.94471875,"end":10285.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10286.254718750002,"end":10297.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10293.477218750002,"end":10326.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10327.56471875,"end":10328.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10328.66159375,"end":10329.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10330.09596875,"end":10331.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10332.03659375,"end":10333.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10334.550968750002,"end":10340.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10341.351593750001,"end":10349.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10350.61596875,"end":10361.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10361.331593750001,"end":10361.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10362.52971875,"end":10362.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10362.546593750001,"end":10362.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10362.563468750002,"end":10362.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10362.867218750001,"end":10362.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10363.390343750001,"end":10365.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10367.05221875,"end":10369.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10374.39284375,"end":10374.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10374.96659375,"end":10375.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10376.65409375,"end":10377.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10382.25659375,"end":10397.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10397.190968750001,"end":10397.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10398.524093750002,"end":10400.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10399.789718750002,"end":10423.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10423.667843750001,"end":10430.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10431.46409375,"end":10448.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10448.676593750002,"end":10458.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10458.54846875,"end":10466.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10467.559718750003,"end":10522.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10523.06159375,"end":10531.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10532.562218750001,"end":10559.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10546.112843750001,"end":10546.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10560.06846875,"end":10589.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10589.32971875,"end":10591.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10591.253468750001,"end":10591.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10591.75971875,"end":10610.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10610.91284375,"end":10612.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10613.359718750002,"end":10614.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10615.03034375,"end":10671.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10671.426593750002,"end":10702.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10702.155968750001,"end":10794.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10704.83909375,"end":10706.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10718.71034375,"end":10719.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10795.62659375,"end":10796.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10796.031593750002,"end":10799.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10800.503468750001,"end":10803.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10821.546593750001,"end":10824.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10825.394093750001,"end":10826.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10825.512218750002,"end":10826.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10832.363468750002,"end":10886.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10886.093468750001,"end":10886.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10886.954093750002,"end":10887.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10887.03846875,"end":10910.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10890.784718750001,"end":10891.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10894.78409375,"end":10895.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10902.63096875,"end":10902.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10910.96721875,"end":10923.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10923.31971875,"end":10958.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10923.859718750002,"end":10923.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10956.79971875,"end":10984.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10985.082218750002,"end":10998.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10999.122218750003,"end":11039.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11040.719093750002,"end":11040.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11040.75284375,"end":11049.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11049.96659375,"end":11055.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11054.52284375,"end":11054.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11056.176593750002,"end":11057.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11057.13846875,"end":11070.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11070.97596875,"end":11073.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11073.70971875,"end":11076.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11078.14784375,"end":11078.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11078.333468750003,"end":11093.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11082.83909375,"end":11084.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11093.031593750002,"end":11115.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11093.250968750002,"end":11093.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11101.367843750002,"end":11101.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11101.40159375,"end":11101.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11107.999718750001,"end":11108.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11115.20534375,"end":11122.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11122.782218750002,"end":11128.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11127.49034375,"end":11129.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11129.144093750001,"end":11133.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11133.44721875,"end":11136.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11136.704093750002,"end":11138.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11138.324093750001,"end":11138.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11139.79221875,"end":11140.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11140.63596875,"end":11141.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11142.812843750002,"end":11146.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11147.132843750001,"end":11149.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11149.69784375,"end":11166.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11166.03284375,"end":11166.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11166.72471875,"end":11181.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11166.758468750002,"end":11167.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11181.895343750002,"end":11207.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11184.747218750003,"end":11185.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11191.007843750001,"end":11191.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11193.87659375,"end":11194.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11201.250968750002,"end":11201.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11205.63846875,"end":11260.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11211.679718750001,"end":11214.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11214.66659375,"end":11214.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11241.379718750002,"end":11241.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11242.206593750001,"end":11243.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11243.13471875,"end":11243.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11250.492218750001,"end":11252.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11254.778468750003,"end":11254.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11257.731593750003,"end":11260.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11260.70159375,"end":11261.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11261.190968750001,"end":11261.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11261.27534375,"end":11261.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11261.29221875,"end":11262.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11261.86596875,"end":11262.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11262.50721875,"end":11262.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11262.574718750002,"end":11262.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11262.59159375,"end":11262.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11262.64221875,"end":11296.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11262.65909375,"end":11263.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11277.27284375,"end":11277.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11292.66284375,"end":11326.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11298.282218750002,"end":11300.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11300.813468750002,"end":11301.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11306.922218750002,"end":11307.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11307.023468750001,"end":11307.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11307.090968750003,"end":11309.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11309.031593750002,"end":11309.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11309.33534375,"end":11309.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11327.18909375,"end":11335.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11335.59284375,"end":11338.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11337.449093750001,"end":11339.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11339.153468750003,"end":11342.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11343.43971875,"end":11346.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11345.92034375,"end":11349.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11348.468468750001,"end":11348.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11349.160343750002,"end":11355.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11353.21034375,"end":11353.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11354.30721875,"end":11354.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11355.555968750003,"end":11368.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11368.11096875,"end":11372.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11371.519718750002,"end":11378.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11377.375343750002,"end":11387.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11387.73659375,"end":11408.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11411.09159375,"end":11413.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11411.327843750001,"end":11412.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11412.82971875,"end":11414.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11413.84221875,"end":11413.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11417.706593750001,"end":11424.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11424.270968750003,"end":11461.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11461.68284375,"end":11470.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11467.20096875,"end":11468.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11469.985343750002,"end":11477.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11477.71409375,"end":11478.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11485.18971875,"end":11488.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11489.594093750002,"end":11491.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11498.453468750002,"end":11499.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11500.27596875,"end":11501.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11506.06409375,"end":11522.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11523.462218750003,"end":11527.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11527.191593750002,"end":11536.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11536.995968750001,"end":11544.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11544.82596875,"end":11547.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11548.62284375,"end":11552.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11551.06971875,"end":11551.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11551.187843750002,"end":11554.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11552.824718750002,"end":11583.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11583.75659375,"end":11607.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11595.34971875,"end":11595.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11603.04471875,"end":11603.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11606.284718750001,"end":11616.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11616.325343750003,"end":11618.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11618.738468750002,"end":11635.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11637.75659375,"end":11640.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11640.254093750002,"end":11641.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11641.317218750002,"end":11657.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11653.754093750002,"end":11653.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11656.032218750002,"end":11659.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11659.15409375,"end":11669.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11669.34659375,"end":11687.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11687.824718750002,"end":11692.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11693.190968750001,"end":11710.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11704.969718750002,"end":11707.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11708.00721875,"end":11716.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11716.039718750002,"end":11730.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11730.67034375,"end":11760.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11760.387218750002,"end":11766.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11767.64346875,"end":11770.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11770.461593750002,"end":11776.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11778.274718750003,"end":11780.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11780.535968750002,"end":11785.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11783.97846875,"end":11793.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11792.31471875,"end":11795.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11795.132843750001,"end":11800.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11795.183468750001,"end":11795.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11801.49471875,"end":11802.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11802.16971875,"end":11808.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11802.321593750003,"end":11802.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11806.01721875,"end":11847.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11808.86909375,"end":11809.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11809.18971875,"end":11809.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11848.54221875,"end":11854.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11854.48221875,"end":11870.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11871.37409375,"end":11914.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11908.094093750002,"end":11910.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11912.59971875,"end":11940.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11914.624718750001,"end":11916.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11922.25221875,"end":11924.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11933.22096875,"end":11933.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11933.237843750001,"end":11933.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11936.64659375,"end":11937.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11938.23284375,"end":11946.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11943.632843750001,"end":11977.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11977.88909375,"end":11997.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11996.805968750003,"end":12061.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11999.15159375,"end":11999.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12004.484093750001,"end":12004.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12009.10784375,"end":12009.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12061.437218750001,"end":12066.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12065.33534375,"end":12066.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12066.75284375,"end":12112.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12100.92471875,"end":12101.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12111.31971875,"end":12131.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12133.425968750002,"end":12134.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12136.176593750002,"end":12141.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12148.95096875,"end":12149.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12150.452843750001,"end":12151.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12152.207843750002,"end":12153.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12153.59159375,"end":12160.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12162.78846875,"end":12184.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12184.55721875,"end":12198.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12199.238468750002,"end":12227.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12227.875343750002,"end":12229.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12230.575343750003,"end":12236.059718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12237.527843750002,"end":12244.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12244.56471875,"end":12253.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12253.980968750002,"end":12254.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12254.04846875,"end":12260.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12260.258468750002,"end":12261.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12261.96284375,"end":12289.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12276.458468750003,"end":12276.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12278.280968750001,"end":12278.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12288.000968750002,"end":12289.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12289.317218750002,"end":12291.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12292.33784375,"end":12294.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12295.476593750001,"end":12296.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12298.328468750002,"end":12299.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12299.864093750002,"end":12334.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12334.812218750001,"end":12336.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12337.039718750002,"end":12343.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12344.17784375,"end":12345.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12348.91971875,"end":12349.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12350.691593750002,"end":12350.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12351.434093750002,"end":12364.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12364.731593750003,"end":12370.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12370.43534375,"end":12374.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12375.04221875,"end":12376.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12377.286593750003,"end":12383.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12384.25596875,"end":12385.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12385.926593750002,"end":12386.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12386.78721875,"end":12387.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12387.512843750003,"end":12388.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12388.305968750003,"end":12388.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12389.774093750002,"end":12391.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12392.01846875,"end":12415.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12416.149718750003,"end":12420.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12421.07721875,"end":12421.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12421.12784375,"end":12421.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12421.161593750003,"end":12421.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12421.17846875,"end":12497.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12421.262843750003,"end":12421.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12493.58909375,"end":12494.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12497.099093750003,"end":12499.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12499.208468750003,"end":12509.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12509.485343750002,"end":12569.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12570.10034375,"end":12579.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12579.938468750002,"end":12580.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12580.562843750002,"end":12580.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12581.102843750003,"end":12586.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12587.363468750002,"end":12588.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12588.848468750002,"end":12598.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12598.433468750001,"end":12603.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12604.10346875,"end":12609.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12608.507843750001,"end":12614.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12614.76846875,"end":12615.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12615.055343750002,"end":12620.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12620.13471875,"end":12620.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12620.320343750001,"end":12620.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12620.438468750002,"end":12621.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12621.51846875,"end":12624.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12621.535343750002,"end":12622.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12624.04971875,"end":12641.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12642.359093750001,"end":12644.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12644.839718750001,"end":12645.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12646.29096875,"end":12648.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12653.800343750001,"end":12658.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12657.31034375,"end":12657.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12662.74409375,"end":12753.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12754.442843750003,"end":12766.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12767.33534375,"end":12777.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12778.40534375,"end":12797.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12796.10721875,"end":12796.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12797.11971875,"end":12872.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12872.939093750003,"end":12885.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12885.24096875,"end":12910.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12903.21284375,"end":12903.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12903.65159375,"end":12903.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12904.91721875,"end":12905.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12909.70971875,"end":12911.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12911.12721875,"end":12911.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12911.144093750001,"end":12955.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12911.160968750002,"end":12911.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12924.964718750001,"end":12924.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12924.981593750003,"end":12925.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12925.09971875,"end":12925.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12925.133468750002,"end":12925.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12925.16721875,"end":12925.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12955.626593750003,"end":12959.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12959.01846875,"end":12959.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12959.035343750002,"end":12970.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12960.55409375,"end":12960.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12968.35034375,"end":12968.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12969.86909375,"end":13067.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13068.351593750001,"end":13080.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13081.51409375,"end":13082.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13085.73284375,"end":13099.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13091.74034375,"end":13093.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13095.58784375,"end":13095.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13098.473468750002,"end":13099.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13099.13159375,"end":13099.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13099.148468750001,"end":13099.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13099.165343750003,"end":13099.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13099.18221875,"end":13099.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13099.43534375,"end":13099.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13099.77284375,"end":13134.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13100.49846875,"end":13100.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13108.51409375,"end":13108.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13108.56471875,"end":13108.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13108.598468750002,"end":13108.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13134.805343750002,"end":13174.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13174.410968750002,"end":13205.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13206.051593750002,"end":13208.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13208.66721875,"end":13208.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13208.835968750001,"end":13258.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13258.836593750002,"end":13259.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13261.064093750003,"end":13262.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13263.24096875,"end":13264.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13264.523468750001,"end":13266.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13266.71721875,"end":13266.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13270.058468750001,"end":13272.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13273.66971875,"end":13274.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13278.360968750003,"end":13303.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13304.078468750002,"end":13415.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13415.149718750003,"end":13415.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13415.976593750001,"end":13433.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13417.27596875,"end":13418.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13434.083468750003,"end":13470.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13470.90471875,"end":13500.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13501.937843750002,"end":13506.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13507.270343750002,"end":13510.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13510.864718750003,"end":13518.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13519.825343750003,"end":13521.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13522.086593750002,"end":13551.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13552.02284375,"end":13557.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13558.50284375,"end":13645.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13645.054718750001,"end":13645.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13645.544093750003,"end":13663.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13665.355343750001,"end":13694.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13695.02159375,"end":13740.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13740.921593750001,"end":13740.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13740.95534375,"end":13741.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13741.05659375,"end":13755.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13741.07346875,"end":13741.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13741.090343750002,"end":13741.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13741.10721875,"end":13741.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13757.10471875,"end":13785.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13795.832843750002,"end":13806.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13809.906593750002,"end":13819.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13819.54221875,"end":13824.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13824.570968750002,"end":13926.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13927.930343750002,"end":13966.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13967.586593750002,"end":14013.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14014.296593750001,"end":14018.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14017.97534375,"end":14017.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14017.992218750001,"end":14018.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14021.13096875,"end":14039.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14039.96346875,"end":14054.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14050.695968750002,"end":14063.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14064.195968750002,"end":14064.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14064.22971875,"end":14075.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14075.02971875,"end":14099.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14100.477218750002,"end":14112.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14113.065968750001,"end":14128.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14128.40534375,"end":14135.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14136.758468750002,"end":14136.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14136.977843750003,"end":14150.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14150.039093750001,"end":14164.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14165.10846875,"end":14166.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14166.340343750002,"end":14187.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14189.239718750003,"end":14192.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14193.10409375,"end":14194.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14197.255343750003,"end":14206.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14209.489718750003,"end":14210.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14218.21409375,"end":14220.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14221.082843750002,"end":14224.204718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14224.238468750002,"end":14224.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14224.289093750001,"end":14225.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14224.677218750003,"end":14227.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14228.91284375,"end":14229.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14230.48221875,"end":14232.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14233.40159375,"end":14244.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14245.062218750001,"end":14245.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14245.09596875,"end":14251.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14251.96409375,"end":14254.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14255.54159375,"end":14261.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14261.92034375,"end":14266.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14267.72534375,"end":14274.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14275.605968750002,"end":14285.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14286.220343750003,"end":14297.189093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14298.859718750002,"end":14305.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14306.26784375,"end":14310.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14311.195343750001,"end":14312.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14313.051593750002,"end":14315.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14315.785343750002,"end":14318.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14318.316593750002,"end":14318.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14318.333468750003,"end":14318.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14318.856593750003,"end":14319.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14319.02534375,"end":14322.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14322.24846875,"end":14322.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14322.383468750002,"end":14322.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14322.434093750002,"end":14322.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14322.46784375,"end":14322.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14322.602843750003,"end":14322.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14323.969718750002,"end":14325.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14326.450343750003,"end":14328.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14329.032218750002,"end":14339.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14341.840343750002,"end":14357.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14357.871593750002,"end":14357.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14358.597218750001,"end":14378.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14381.648468750001,"end":14382.829718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14383.21784375,"end":14386.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14387.942843750003,"end":14389.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14391.520343750002,"end":14395.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14396.71784375,"end":14398.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14399.99159375,"end":14401.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14402.337218750003,"end":14403.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14403.45096875,"end":14407.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14407.24784375,"end":14417.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14417.946593750003,"end":14417.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14417.980343750001,"end":14425.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14418.01409375,"end":14418.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14426.097218750001,"end":14426.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14426.97471875,"end":14433.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14434.61909375,"end":14457.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14457.923468750003,"end":14459.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14460.218468750001,"end":14464.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14465.129093750002,"end":14467.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14468.84159375,"end":14475.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14476.418468750002,"end":14488.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14488.433468750001,"end":14542.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14502.38909375,"end":14502.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14502.96284375,"end":14503.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14543.699093750001,"end":14548.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14549.301593750002,"end":14550.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14550.735968750003,"end":14552.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14557.01346875,"end":14558.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14558.92034375,"end":14560.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14564.337218750003,"end":14584.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14571.070343750001,"end":14571.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14571.492218750001,"end":14571.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14584.60409375,"end":14609.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14610.96284375,"end":14610.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14610.97971875,"end":14612.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14612.886593750001,"end":14614.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14614.742843750002,"end":14624.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14617.274093750002,"end":14618.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14619.67034375,"end":14620.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14624.73284375,"end":14667.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14668.18596875,"end":14673.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14673.99096875,"end":14675.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14674.83471875,"end":14674.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14674.919093750003,"end":14674.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14676.25221875,"end":14677.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14677.46721875,"end":14678.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14677.56846875,"end":14679.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14679.222218750001,"end":14680.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14679.239093750002,"end":14679.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14679.35721875,"end":14679.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14679.509093750003,"end":14679.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14679.559718750003,"end":14679.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14682.64784375,"end":14689.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14685.68534375,"end":14685.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14689.97159375,"end":14726.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14726.910968750002,"end":14773.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14775.12284375,"end":14784.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14784.960968750001,"end":14784.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14784.977843750003,"end":14787.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14787.441593750002,"end":14822.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14824.06034375,"end":14835.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14845.37346875,"end":14846.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14846.824718750002,"end":14847.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14847.989093750002,"end":14849.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14850.70596875,"end":14851.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14851.887218750002,"end":14857.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14857.995968750001,"end":14862.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14862.704093750002,"end":14878.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14878.75221875,"end":14879.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14879.02221875,"end":14887.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14887.965968750003,"end":14892.876593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14893.14659375,"end":14920.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14921.192843750003,"end":14927.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14928.195968750002,"end":14932.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14933.460968750001,"end":14945.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14945.08784375,"end":14945.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14945.121593750002,"end":14945.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14945.324093750001,"end":14945.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14945.340968750003,"end":14945.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14945.35784375,"end":14945.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14945.391593750002,"end":14945.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14945.83034375,"end":14945.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14946.083468750003,"end":14981.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14982.415343750003,"end":14985.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14985.97596875,"end":14990.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14992.067843750003,"end":14993.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14993.56971875,"end":15007.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14994.76784375,"end":14995.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14996.050343750001,"end":14996.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15003.711593750002,"end":15004.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15007.879718750002,"end":15026.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15016.97534375,"end":15018.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15021.227843750003,"end":15022.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":15022.476593750001,"end":15022.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15028.011593750001,"end":15028.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15028.028468750003,"end":15038.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15038.879093750002,"end":15040.482218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15038.929718750001,"end":15039.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15041.27534375,"end":15043.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15043.485968750003,"end":15069.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15049.105343750001,"end":15049.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15050.25284375,"end":15050.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15052.24409375,"end":15052.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15056.564093750003,"end":15056.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15061.00221875,"end":15061.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15069.96284375,"end":15120.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15073.03409375,"end":15073.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15074.485343750002,"end":15074.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15082.41659375,"end":15082.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15083.46284375,"end":15084.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15088.761593750001,"end":15089.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15092.32221875,"end":15092.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15121.532843750003,"end":15132.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15132.974093750003,"end":15133.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15133.851593750001,"end":15133.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15134.40846875,"end":15135.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15134.67846875,"end":15135.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15136.31534375,"end":15138.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15138.930968750003,"end":15139.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15140.90534375,"end":15142.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15143.53784375,"end":15150.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15145.410968750002,"end":15146.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15151.064093750003,"end":15154.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":15154.320968750002,"end":15178.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15182.40096875,"end":15186.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15186.974093750003,"end":15229.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15229.954718750003,"end":15234.71346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1511.408,"end":1511.937,"text":"喂喂"},{"start":1883.704,"end":1893.474,"text":"報告委員會 出席委員13人 已足法定人數現在開會首先進行報告事項 請議事委員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":1900.575,"end":1925.334,"text":"第一次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國114年3月5日上午9時8分至9時11分地點本院勤選樓101會議室出席委員林沛翔等14人主席柯委員之恩報告事項本院第11屆第三會期各委員會召集委員選舉時間及地點業經提報本院第11屆第三會期第二次會議報告決定召喚通過再案"},{"start":1926.115,"end":1945.457,"text":"二 宣讀第十一屆第三會期本會召集委員選舉人名冊選舉事項選舉第十一屆第三會期本會召集委員主席宣告推選葛委員如均及林委員伊景為立法院第十一屆第三會期教育及文化委員會召集委員 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1953.722,"end":1970.175,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有好那我們議事錄確定那今天的議程是審查青年基本法草案相關的草案總共有18案那審查委員黃婕等是7人"},{"start":1971.676,"end":1998.826,"text":"拟据青年基本法草案审查委员林楚英等21人审查委员林一锦等22人审查委员吴思瑶等47人审查陈佩玉等17人审查委员范芸等16人审查陈秀宝等21人审查委员吴佩义等24人审查委员王美惠等17人审查委员郭玉琴等18人"},{"start":1999.586,"end":2023.003,"text":"審查委員林月琴等19人審查委員葛如君等19人審查委員李坤成等19人審查委員魯明哲等17人審查委員陳廷飛等16人審查委員葉元芝等20人審查委員林德福等20人審查委員羅廷偉等16人拟據的青年基本法草案"},{"start":2023.783,"end":2036.26,"text":"那我們今天緊進詢答那首先我先來介紹在場的委員我們看到陳秀寶委員吳佩奕委員羅廷維委員黃婕委員"},{"start":2041.118,"end":2060.92,"text":"好那我們來介紹今天與會的官員首先今天教育部部長原本要來那有因公請假所以我們今天請教育部次長葉秉成葉次長還有我們教育部青年發展署陳雪玉署長"},{"start":2063.435,"end":2092.045,"text":"勞動部勞動立法人署施署會主任秘書經濟部中小與新創企業署李冠志署長內政部國土管理署住宅發展組張瓊月副組長內政部宗教及理智司唐耕生專門委員財政部國庫署楊博存檢任集合財政部"},{"start":2094.046,"end":2112.959,"text":"負稅署吳秀琳專門委員衛生福利部國民健康署魏喜倫副署長國發會社會發展處蘇艾娟專門委員文化部綜合規劃司魏秋怡司長"},{"start":2117.216,"end":2129.96,"text":"金融監督管理委員會綜合規劃處梁青洲專門委員數位發展部數位產業署邱季賢檢驗記者國科會副處長龔季康副處長"},{"start":2140.735,"end":2159.537,"text":"還有我們外交部研究設計會胡光儀副參事外交部非政府組織國際事務會宋永福副參事行政院人事行政總處主編人栗處谷元林專門委員"},{"start":2161.658,"end":2188.951,"text":"行政院主計總處公務預算處黃子漢專門委員交通部綜合規劃司吳東林副司長我們看到還有林楚英委員還有葛如君委員好那我們現在就來進行提案委員的提案說明那我們就依我剛剛唸的這個先後順序"},{"start":2192.537,"end":2193.998,"text":"那我們首先請黃婕委員"},{"start":2205.233,"end":2229.074,"text":"好 以井昭偉還有在場所有的同仁大家早安首先大家非常感謝林以井昭偉來排審青年基本法因為這個法其實很多青年都等很久了那在立法院也討論了兩個屆期現在也有18個委員有版本那多次的討論下來我相信制定一部青年基本法是跨黨派的共識那特別感動的是"},{"start":2229.934,"end":2250.335,"text":"在一次次匯集意見當中來聆聽青年的聲音可以讓年輕人直接來制定政策這件事情非常非常重要在我的版本裡面有三個重點第一個是要促進青年參與公共政策我相信中央政府必須要把這個權力釋出來所以每年至少要召開兩次的青年政策的諮詢匯報邀請青年的代表"},{"start":2253.758,"end":2274.242,"text":"專家學者還有公民團體來參與來監督檢討青年政策讓青年可以直接參與政策的形成過程來推導決策的高強那第二個政府應該要每四年來訂定青年政策的白皮書每兩年就來擬定國家青年發展的計畫召集相關的部會還有團體來參與來定期審視執政的方向對於青年的照顧是不是足夠了"},{"start":2280.643,"end":2298.619,"text":"那第三個是政府應該要協助以青年為主體的非營利組織還有社團的發展制定相關的補助還有培訓的計畫來消除世代的不平等那我相信比起壯世代青年世代在社會上的資源分配才是相對的弱勢我們應該要用國家的力量"},{"start":2299.119,"end":2322.701,"text":"用基本法的高度來支持他們在社會上的生活讓青年可以在政策制定的過程當中具有角色讓行政機關在制定任何政策的過程當中都可以思考到青年的需求我相信這才是真正的世代正義謝謝好 謝謝黃婕恩委員提案說明那麼接下來請林楚英委員"},{"start":2332.779,"end":2355.737,"text":"謝謝主席感謝林一錦主席在我們這個會期的一開始就安排了一個如此重要的法案剛剛我特別看了一下出席的名單因為在本席提案的版本當中特別著重在有關於青年人才以及未來的青年有關於如何來培養他們的金融素養我們都知道普惠金融其實是不論"},{"start":2356.758,"end":2378.41,"text":"金管會或者是其他相關的我們政府財政相關單位非常重視的一個部分可是我認為在相關著重青年的議題當中有關於青年如何能夠擁有普惠金融的素養更為重要而我們在相關的政策制定的過程當中有沒有考量到青年的需要"},{"start":2379.19,"end":2402.608,"text":"我想在這棟大樓的樓上就是九樓大禮堂是財政委員會央行現在正在做專案的報告而另外我想在過去我在財政委員會的過程當中也常常提到從山到猴子的一生我們看到的是許多青年在面對自己融資借款或者是金融資訊當中其實是有許多需要完備"},{"start":2403.849,"end":2419.262,"text":"而我們的政策包括在前一陣子財政委員會討論非常激烈的就是有關於清安貸款的等等這些政策的制定到底是幫了青年一把還是其實設下了許多重重的陷阱"},{"start":2419.762,"end":2435.883,"text":"根據金融研訓院在2022年台灣金融生活調查的報告當中顯示有78.1%的民眾金融素養偏低而其中20到29歲的青年族群是最難抵抗金融風險"},{"start":2437.185,"end":2464.395,"text":"容易誤觸金融陷阱跟詐騙顯示政府對於青年金融教育的介入跟支持還有我們政策自定的部分有許多改善的空間有的時候我們想做但是卻做的不到位或者是做的不是他們需要的因此本席所提出來的青年基本法當中非常高興主席有邀請到了財政跟金管會相關單位的官員列席但是本席必須說層級不夠高"},{"start":2466.716,"end":2492.402,"text":"那麼我希望今天既然來了這些訊息能夠帶回去給這兩個部會的主管希望他們把青年放在心上所以本席所提出來的版本當中特別加入了青年金融素養概要在我們推動青年基本法的同時要納入提升青年金融素養的相關概念而政策的制定當中一定要傾聽青年的聲音謝謝"},{"start":2494.81,"end":2496.986,"text":"好 謝謝林楚瑩委員的提案說明"},{"start":2505.748,"end":2531.426,"text":"接下來請林怡琴委員做提案說明謝謝主席我想青年擁有最新穎的思維跟積極的行動力絕對是推動國家發展促進社會進步的一環那即便現在有不少支持青年的相關政策跟措施但我們常年缺乏一套照顧青年扶持青年有系統性的盤整政策"},{"start":2532.307,"end":2549.892,"text":"的政策跟法律那以延續性跟長遠性的政策來促進青年主流化所以青年基本法有很多的委員都提出了很多的提出版本顯見大家對於設立一部支持青年的法律有很高的共識那本席在救我"},{"start":2550.592,"end":2578.183,"text":"自己提出的版本來做一些說明首先有關青年年齡的範圍的界定我國各地方政府的青年諮詢組織成員就有許多不同的範圍有的是15歲到35歲18歲到40歲也有範圍比較大16歲到45歲那本席的草案版本是參照行政院青年諮詢委員會委員的年齡定義"},{"start":2579.443,"end":2594.326,"text":"以18歲以上至35歲以下為本法所謂的青年不過本席也有參考韓國的相關立法若其他法令與條例中對青年的年齡另有規定者"},{"start":2595.387,"end":2618.295,"text":"從其規定有這樣的單書那再來青年目前在台灣社會面臨有就學居住創業還有經濟支持以及公共事務參與等較被漠視的困境那本席的版本中也著重在青年的就業創業學習環境居住政策身心健康"},{"start":2619.215,"end":2646.593,"text":"以及提高生活品質穩定經濟生活文化活動的參與以及國際事務的參與希望以基本法的這個高度來讓以後的司法的訂定有明確的方向那有關於青年事務的單位本席認為需要有專責的單位來進行青年政策的系統性整合那不宜讓權責分散在各部會那本席有考量到"},{"start":2647.133,"end":2662.796,"text":"目前中央行政機關部會的數量已經飽和那是否要進行調整這可以再研議那本身希望對青年的照顧跟權力的保障至少要有專責單位統合目前業務分散的情形那至於地方政府"},{"start":2663.357,"end":2685.106,"text":"本席認為單位層級盡可能提高成一級的單位來設置並且要寬列青年事務的預算展現對青年事務的重視跟支持本席也認為為了確定我國青年政策的目標監督實行的成果我覺得我們因應國家發展方向跟社會變遷等等"},{"start":2685.566,"end":2706.552,"text":"政府應該每四年要擬定青年政策白皮書那每兩年要擬定青年發展政策的綱領作為青年發展政策的施政依據那更重要的是 訂定這個青年政策白皮書以及青年發展政策的綱領除了相關的部會 學者專家外也要有青年代表來參與"},{"start":2709.333,"end":2727.672,"text":"確保貼近青年們的真實需求那本席期待透過青年基本法的立法以基本法的各高度來加強各單位青年政策的聯繫與合作那以宣示我國不分行政立法攜手支持青年的決心那落實青年主流化大家一起加油謝謝"},{"start":2740.046,"end":2743.127,"text":"好 那我們接下來請陳秀寶委員進行提案說明謝謝主席非常感謝林錦昭委今天排關於青年基本法的這個詢答青年基本法目前交付到教文委員會審查的委員提案已經有18個版本其中也包含本席的提案"},{"start":2769.015,"end":2785.358,"text":"顯示委員對於青年基本法的制定是已經有高度的共識因此本集也很期待後續的審查可以順利盡速的通過對下一代對青年世代有利的民生法案行政院為了建構有利青年發展的環境陸續在各個部會各個面向來辦理多項協助青年的相關計畫以顯示青年政策的推動需要跨部會的合作共同的來推動"},{"start":2797.461,"end":2802.286,"text":"例如財政部有辦理青年安心成家貸款內政部有辦理青年住屋補助教育部則推動青年百億海外圓夢基金計畫衛福部則是祭出青壯世代心理健康的支持方案顯示青年政策並不是由單一個部會就可以來推行"},{"start":2817.921,"end":2828.144,"text":"需要結合各部會的資源才能為青年打造全方位的福利政策而行政院為了傾聽青年世代的意見也設立了青年諮詢委員會也表示行政院願意廣納青年世代的意見針對青年的需求制定相應的法規推動符合青年期待的政策"},{"start":2839.867,"end":2857.863,"text":"因此本席也希望行政院要儘速的提出院版在主條審查時候能夠一起來討論讓我們為下一代來努力為下一代打造優質的發展環境做青年的最佳後盾我挺青年基本法實現青年主流化謝謝好 謝謝陳秀寶委員的提案說明我們接下來請吳佩奕委員"},{"start":2873.056,"end":2879.22,"text":"謝謝主席昨天我也非常的高興和我們交委以及交文會的現場有陳秀寶委員以及多位委員一起共同來召開記者會就是希望呼籲這個會期我們希望可以把青年基本法送出立法院來三讀完成"},{"start":2892.367,"end":2897.533,"text":"那在上個會期呢五月份就是去年的五月份我剛進到立法院三個月當時也很感謝我們委員會就已經召開了青年基本法的公聽會在公聽會當中我們有諸多的學生代表與會出席"},{"start":2908.764,"end":2928.032,"text":"也讓我們立法院的成員也聆聽到了更多來自於在學生社會青年以及地方政府各個單位大家對於青年基本法大家的想像那所以很高興現在我們是在進行可以說是最後一里路那今天我也有提案版本在進行版本說明之前我還是想要來說明一下它的歷程那也希望再次的呼籲我們希望青年基本法已經刻不容緩"},{"start":2936.095,"end":2942.36,"text":"因為呢非常的遺憾在2016年的時候11月10號當時國民黨文傳會有召開一個記者會把2016年我們的行政院青年諮詢委員會稱為是黑機關稱為是肥貓那今天我們在討論的青年基本法當中我的版本以及多位版本也呼籲未來要有青年的專責機構所以我希望我們立法院跨黨派不同的委員大家都可以基於青年權益"},{"start":2964.839,"end":2971.202,"text":"的需要以及保障可以理性的來進行接下來的討論那過去我們非常的重視青年的權益所以包括我們過去政府推動了高中職免懸費我們的310租金補貼的擴大以及在今年也成立了青年百億圓夢"},{"start":2984.989,"end":2993.136,"text":"計劃這些方案都是希望政府能夠做青年的後盾這一次我們希望來訂定青年基本法希望在法律當中能夠更明確的來為青年他到底是誰呢什麼樣的年齡進行定義"},{"start":2999.662,"end":3005.687,"text":"而我們認為青年的工作以及青年的權益這些內容範圍包括了哪些那未來我們希望政府要用什麼樣的行政的機制來進行推動我自己的版本總共有22個條文裡面的包括定義的範圍我希望年齡層我們可以從15歲開始起算至35歲"},{"start":3022.759,"end":3042.966,"text":"那這也是在我們去年的公聽會當中很多青年學子的呼籲以及盼望那我的版本當中也包括了未來我們的青年政策的參與我們必須要給青年有強設的機制我們希望未來政府能夠有法源依據能夠來支持青年的團體以及法人"},{"start":3044.566,"end":3062.52,"text":"這個青年的工作內容包括哪些呢我們在法律當中我們寫進了包括教育運動居住國際交流身心健康創新創業等項目我們都希望是未來政府能夠照顧青年的範圍跟這個內容那特別是文化的"},{"start":3063.14,"end":3082.089,"text":"青年的文化參與它包括了支持青年的藝文工作者以及鼓勵青年的藝文消費那我們希望未來政府我們要推動青年主流化就必須要有它的調研及考核的機制未來我們應該要有法源依據"},{"start":3084.567,"end":3106.802,"text":"針對例行性的針對青年主流化政府各個部會推動的成果來辦理研究跟調查那我的提案版本說明先簡單至此那接下來有一些問題在後面的質詢當中再來跟教育部進行討論謝謝好謝謝吳佩奕委員我們接下來請葛如君召委進行提案說明"},{"start":3116.697,"end":3142.52,"text":"好 謝謝主席在場的各位同仁感謝趙偉安排今天的法案審查也感謝全國青年們對這一部法案長久以來的支持跟期待青年是國家的希望和未來青年也是推動社會進步發展的重要力量青年時期更是價值觀 人生觀 世界觀形成的關鍵階段"},{"start":3143.973,"end":3164.386,"text":"跟青年有關的政策面向非常的多元尤其在這個快速變動的數位化的時代裡面國家應該要如何協助和陪伴青年們融入社會安居樂業為他們提供發揮影響力的機會讓他們未來可以過上更好的日子這都是我們需要共同努力的方向"},{"start":3165.526,"end":3189.88,"text":"本席的青年基本法草案涵蓋以下幾個重點第一個因應基礎的科技以及醫療科技的進步人口高齡化的趨勢平均餘命可以說是越來越長我們這邊也很仔細做了分析民國元年的時候男性平均的餘命是35歲女性39民國40年的時候男性平均餘命53歲女性是56歲"},{"start":3193.482,"end":3207.419,"text":"到了民國80年的時候男性平均的餘命是72歲女性是77歲那也恭喜各位到了民國111年的時候全體國人的平均餘命是將近80歲接下來很可能會到90 100"},{"start":3209.341,"end":3230.167,"text":"根據非常多的科技的前瞻的研究指出我們的平均餘命可能會勢必再增加延長甚至到120歲甚至到150歲因此我的版本提高青年定義的年齡標準到未滿45歲這個是為了因應未來社會的變遷以及科技的進步"},{"start":3231.047,"end":3251.42,"text":"第二點草安中除了包含教育環境就業創業健康居住等等的面向之外呢也因應數位科技的快速的發展我會將青年數位平權的理念同時納入並且強調青年文化保留跟創意發揮的重要性我相信在座的官員應該都非常認同"},{"start":3252.813,"end":3274.729,"text":"第三點青年公共政策參與的部分也非常重要AI的時代來臨未來的工作形式可能改變我們認為人類會有一個非常重要的工作只有人可以做的就是公民服務公共的參與我們認為政府應該積極的為青年建立更多公共事務參與的管道之外也應該要給予賠利的機制"},{"start":3275.249,"end":3290.388,"text":"讓有意參與的青年能夠更容易的找到資源取得資源並且在運用資源以後能夠進一步的回饋給社會讓社會在整個正循環當中一步一步的向前邁進那此外也根據青年署網站非常清楚的資料顯示"},{"start":3291.269,"end":3311.152,"text":"目前設有青年局的縣市其實只有台北市、新北市、桃園市、彰化縣以及高雄市其他的縣市則是將青年發展的業務組織單位放在不同體系之下比如說教育局、勞動局、社會局、產發局甚至研考會等等這也凸顯了青年政策面向多元"},{"start":3312.213,"end":3340.7,"text":"也凸顯了我們可能需要更好的跨部會協調跟統籌那第五點有鑒於現行青年發展署屬於三級機關我們也希望跨部會的事宜應該要能夠更積極的做跨層級跨部會的協調整合所以我的版本本期的版本也將設置行政院層級的新年事務協調匯報以提高未來青年政策跨領域跨部會跨部會跨領域的執行成效那最後也是最重要的"},{"start":3341.36,"end":3358.64,"text":"在本席的草案當中呢也明定了政府應該設置青年發展基金讓上述所提到的各項青年政策可以持續的有一筆專款可以來落實讓他可以更加的中立更加的永續還錢於青年"},{"start":3360.242,"end":3375.576,"text":"最後我想要再次強調青年真的是我們國家發展的重要角色跟命脈也是推動社會進步的重要力量對於整個國家未來發展真的是最高的重要性因此我們期待可以透過青年基本法的法制高度"},{"start":3376.036,"end":3394.386,"text":"由政府建構各個面向的整合性支持也不能只有教育部也不能只有青年發展署我們也希望行政院包含總統包含全民社會都一起來陪伴青年們找到每個人獨特的熱情和天賦讓青年在國家政策的支持之下可以茁壯讓我們一起邁向未來的願景謝謝好 謝謝謝謝葛國軍召委進行提案說明我們接下來請羅廷偉委員"},{"start":3410.249,"end":3430.429,"text":"非常謝謝趙偉今天安排我們來審這個青年基本法我想現行法制對於未滿12歲的兒童及12歲以上未滿18歲的少年有兒童及少年福利權益保障法以及兒童及少年未來教育及發展帳戶的條例等相關的一個立法"},{"start":3431.05,"end":3446.482,"text":"而對於45歲以上中高齡以及高齡者亦有中高齡者以及高齡者就業促進法老人福利法等制度青年是整個社會進步的原動力在少子化的現在更是關鍵我們都"},{"start":3448.644,"end":3464.231,"text":"曾經青年或者是正在青年我想在現階段青年是成為國家競爭力的一個關鍵18歲到35歲的青年至今仍未有相關法制化的一個立法保證"},{"start":3465.171,"end":3487.896,"text":"我想未來有更多的青年專責機構甚至青年發展基金甚至能夠參考各國對於青年基本法的一些案例我們來加以實現加以立法對於現階段鼓勵青年自我實現保障青年發展的一個權利促進青年在政治經濟社會文化"},{"start":3488.756,"end":3514.895,"text":"數位科技等層面的一個參與是確立國家青年發展的一個施政方針我們希望在這一次青年基本法的草案能夠全面性的探討大家一起來努力讓整個青年法治的健全多元以及全面性的發展一起大家共同來努力謝謝大家 謝謝好 謝謝羅廷偉委員我們接下來請林德福委員"},{"start":3521.379,"end":3538.078,"text":"謝謝主席我想本院本席跟羅明才還有楊瓊英等20個人有建議青年不僅代表整個國家的未來更反映整個國家的現在"},{"start":3539.44,"end":3552.113,"text":"各界不斷呼籲應要重視青年強調投資青年就是投資整個國家的未來隨青年人口逐漸的減少產業結構轉型全球經濟市場競爭的加劇"},{"start":3560.1,"end":3583.153,"text":"資訊科技發展日新月異等外部環境的變遷使得當前青年所面臨的局勢更加複雜多變相較於兒童長者身心障礙皆有專法來明定重要的施政方向以及內容唯獨就是缺少青年政策的專法"},{"start":3584.133,"end":3608.658,"text":"那若沒有妥善考慮年輕人的未來將導致整個國家陷入整個惡性的循環那如今我國已進入高齡化少子化的社會為重視青年主體性政府也應該要將資源投注在15歲到35歲青年的發展那本席等這個"},{"start":3611.491,"end":3640.429,"text":"制定就是青年發展基本法草案各級政府應寬列青年發展經費以保障專款專用政府應給予誘因來鼓勵青年儲蓄不僅可以累積創業資金透過財經素養提升作為第一筆投資的基金以協助青年朋友遠離貧窮讓青年能獲得政府"},{"start":3641.69,"end":3659.466,"text":"這個更多資源的支持來搭配民間資源的引進以促進青年發展 適合有當進行公學 以上謝謝謝謝林德福委員的提案說明那我們接著就請教育部葉政務次長秉承進行報告時間4分鐘"},{"start":3672.048,"end":3693.822,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生大家好今天本人應邀列席就青年基本法草案報告請向各位委員長期對於教育事務及青年發展業務的關心與指導表示衷心的謝誠並請各位委員繼續給予教育部業務督導及支持請說明如下"},{"start":3694.702,"end":3714.768,"text":"就《青年基本法》原意這個背景說明政府持續照顧青年擴大社會照顧支持青年發展業以推動縮短公私利大專學雜費的差距落實高中職免學費辦理青年創業貸款推動青年百億海外圓夢基金計畫"},{"start":3715.828,"end":3739.833,"text":"持續推動零到六歲國家一起養2.0還有百萬戶租屋家庭支持計畫及300億元中央擴大租金補貼專案及新清安貸款優化措施等措施有關青年基本法之研議在貴委員會113年5月召開青年基本法草案工地會後本部續針對"},{"start":3741.753,"end":3761.412,"text":"青年基本法草案進行相關收集國外案例以及基礎資料的爬梳整理並持續諮詢專家學者青年意見並彙整各委員提案條文廣泛收集各界意見進行嚴定專法內容目前已有部內出版"},{"start":3761.972,"end":3771.314,"text":"我們將在近期召集各部會及縣市政府共同檢視並進行草案預告收集意見後續循程序抱怨審查"},{"start":3772.895,"end":3794.783,"text":"本部對委員所提青年基本法各草案的回應的說明第一個很多委員關係的青年的定義多數委員所提的條文定義青年年齡為18歲到35歲亦有委員版本向下延伸至15歲或者是向上延伸至45歲那在我們研議諮詢時諮詢人員建議青年定義為18到35歲"},{"start":3799.665,"end":3816.453,"text":"另外考量各部會及直轄市縣市政府與擬定執行青年相關政策或計畫時其適用年齡範圍可能會有不同的實際需求為利益政策推動我們另外也建議其他法律如果有規定者從其規定"},{"start":3817.895,"end":3840.746,"text":"第二個關於這個設置青年專責單位的部分委員所提的條文提及各級政府應設立青年專責單位各級政府近年來相當重視青年發展業務已經陸續成立青年事務單位有關地方政府的專責機關應該如何編制基於地方自治我們建議尊重由地方政府本權責主設"},{"start":3843.069,"end":3859.535,"text":"委員所提的條文本部將納入草案研議參考關於委員關心的青年參與機制的部分委員所提的條文提到政府制定青年相關政策應建立青年參與機制行政院業已成立行政院青年諮詢委員會並於105年11月1號成立親資會"},{"start":3864.036,"end":3883.228,"text":"另外全國到114年3月為止已經有21個縣市設置青年諮詢組織本部青年發展署以及相關部會會持續推動青年參與培力活動委員所提的建立青年參與機制是青年發展的重點本部也將納入草案研議參考"},{"start":3884.571,"end":3905.475,"text":"第四個委員關心的青年權益的部分青年所涉及的權益相當多元各委員所提到的關於青年的就業、創業、教育、居住、身心健康、經濟獨立、文化、國際參與、運動休閒、金融素養、還有數位環境等都是對青年發展的重要面向本部在嚴厲查案時將徵詢跨部會意見並整體參考進行研議"},{"start":3910.416,"end":3932.447,"text":"第五個部分 關於委員關心的區域性青年支持機構有關委員所提的條文政府應設立區域性青年支持機構建立青年在地支持系統近年來政府支持在地青年紮根及共好事業的落實委員所提的條文支持青年在地發展的內涵本部予以尊重並將納入草案研議參考"},{"start":3933.487,"end":3954.406,"text":"那第六個部分委員關心的協助以青年為主體的非營利組織及團體發展委員所提的條文提到政府應該協助青年以青年為主體的非營利組織跟團體制發展基於促進青年社會參與鼓勵青年培力與交流支持青年團體發展非常重要所以委員所提的條文本部將納入查案研議參考"},{"start":3955.427,"end":3982.101,"text":"那關於另外第七項委員關心的青年政策排比書各委員所提的條文提到嚴定青年發展政策排比書國家青年發展計畫以及青年發展政策綱領等那感謝委員提供各項的建議參考現行國內相關基本法以及國外對於發展計畫及政策綱領的相關規定大部分都是以四到五年為規劃週期另外考量到我國的政治制度所以我們以每"},{"start":3983.021,"end":4011.76,"text":"我認為四年每四年擬定相關文件會比較適宜比較能夠穩健推進推展青年政策那關於第八項很多委員關心的青年事務協調匯報各位委員所提到的行政院應該定期召開青年協調匯報一次目前行政院已經有設立行政院青年諮詢委員會由青年針對關注公共政策積極提供建言並透過跨部會延伸於協調那委員所提的這個青年協調匯報"},{"start":4013.341,"end":4038.691,"text":"這個條文本部予以尊重也將納入本部研議條文草案之參考那最後委員有提到的這個全國青年日那各委員所提到這個全國青年日儀式現在內政部所訂的這個紀念日及節日實施辦法第五條已經有列入青年節那委員所提的條文本部予以尊重並將持續收集相關意見那以上報告敬請各位委員會與指教謝謝"},{"start":4043.194,"end":4050.179,"text":"謝謝 謝謝葉次長的口頭報告那還有我們其他相關部會的書面資料我們也請一併參閱"},{"start":4052.625,"end":4081.408,"text":"好那我們現在進行詢答每位出席委員質詢時間6分鐘不要使延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10時30分委員如有臨時提案請於上午10點半前提出並與本會委員羅廷偉質詢結束之後即進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先"},{"start":4082.048,"end":4108.494,"text":"我们请迫不及待发言登记第一位柯智恩委员咨询谢谢赵伟我们请叶次长请叶次长好次长好我想我们今天讨论青年基本法我想曹也都对于这样一部分表达非常的支持但是还是有很多务实的问题请问行政院的态度你们是不是要提愿板"},{"start":4111.058,"end":4116.3,"text":"我們預計在這個會期會提出原版這個會期一定會提出原版為什麼一定要特別提到因為公聽會是在去年5月然後你們3月可是剛剛聽到次長從頭到尾都不斷在告訴我在蒐集資料然後跟地方縣市政府還在蒐集資料我還是要提醒一下5月舉行的公聽會3月你就告訴我們要做就是你剛有特別報告了所以你們目前為止"},{"start":4137.708,"end":4155.101,"text":"听起来就是朝基本法的方向来演绎然后呢公听会完之后吸取相关意见吧吧吧从去年三月到现在已经一年了显然还在持续收集资料我们问个比较务实的你们要不要成立负责青年事务部的专责单位要不要"},{"start":4155.561,"end":4157.783,"text":"先跟委員報告一下就是我們目前部辦已經"},{"start":4185.501,"end":4208.717,"text":"統籌分配嗎?有可能嗎?我想這個關於這個未來的統籌部會是這個要有一個新的單位或者這個其實是牽扯到政府的編制跟人員的是,所以呢你的主管機會如果不是行政院的位階的話你剛剛所提到的包括對青年的就職、居住、社會參與等等還有包括他們的婚姻"},{"start":4209.437,"end":4227.783,"text":"他不是一個你教育部有辦法叫得動的然後你行政院對於這樣的事物對於這樣部分他都還持一個懷疑的態度這是執政黨的優先法案以你們現在目前到現在一年了你們覺得這樣有辦法是肯積極的告訴我們你們真的可以把它當優先法案來做處理嗎"},{"start":4229.463,"end":4242.303,"text":"有可能嗎 目前這麼多問題還是沒有解決啊不要像勞動部長許民聰從上台到下台都還在持續收集資料所以我再問一次 什麼時候會有行政院的版本你們說這個會期一定會有 對不對"},{"start":4244.867,"end":4264.508,"text":"好我们大家听起来这个会计会有而且里面可以调列哪一个是所谓的专责单位专责单位到底他的权责到哪里是否有没有办法调动到所谓靠不会这才是我们真正对青年基本法负责的态度好不好好我们就看看这个会期因为次长已经承诺了接下来我们来看看"},{"start":4265.609,"end":4290.364,"text":"我们来问一些教育相关议题因为次长是主管这个高教嘛那次长以前也是台大的老师所以说呢来书长请回了然后呢上台大变这件这个是台大毕业歌大家都觉得很好然后呢我们都非常尊重学生的创意但是他的歌词是告诉我们其实在显示说对于前途的茫然低薪失业尤其是文组的学生他们的就业度更窄"},{"start":4291.224,"end":4304.939,"text":"所以台灣的高教環境真的像次長覺得是這麼樣子的樂觀嗎你好好聽他們的歌詞我覺得這才是一個最大的重點為什麼我們現在的學生特別是文組社會組的學生對他們的未來有這麼大的一個失落"},{"start":4308.22,"end":4330.867,"text":"報告委員這其實有一些脈絡以台大為例台大每年這個就業博覽會很多都是科技業金融業他不是台大幾乎任何學校都是這樣我想這也是一個要可以改進的地方因為很多這個就業博覽會HR有時候學生一進來同學你是什麼科系的一聽到不是科技不是金融財經相關的科系HR的那個"},{"start":4331.887,"end":4359.055,"text":"没错所以你看次长现在任何学校什么都要挂上一个AI连一个文组也都要挂上AI这就是一个key word只要你有个AI就连博览会里面起码还要把你的履历稍微看一下我只是提出一个现象并没有要责怪我只是告诉既然高教是这么样的重要好我们有太多东西而且要借助你的专才可是呢我还蛮遗憾的想问一件事情在2月20号就是好不容易有召开全国的大学校长会议次长你也在场吧"},{"start":4360.195,"end":4362.898,"text":"那我是不是可以請問一下,誰主導?你是高教的,是你主導的嗎?這是高教師在規劃的那我請問一下,是誰邀請邱全正主委來演講的?他是總統指示要來的?還是不請自來的?還是部長拍板來的?哪一位可以回答我這個問題?"},{"start":4377.935,"end":4406.889,"text":"全部的大学校长会议这么多高教的问题我们面对世界的竞争度我们面对整个课程的同者我们面对的社会主同学没有办法有出路我们面对我们的大学生学非所用这么多大学校长包括他们的资源的分配鼎大怎么跟他私大退场机制你去找来这些人请问告诉我谁请邱学生来演讲的谁请的报告委员这是协进会校长协进会去邀请校长协进会然后你们就觉得可以找他来过来"},{"start":4407.509,"end":4426.685,"text":"那我想我們尊重校長那你覺得呢你坐在那邊聽你覺得每個校長每個人都在那邊像小學生一樣我坦白講我那天在下面聽我覺得媒體報導有點言過情語其實他是在分享一些資訊給大家並沒有以說教的意味所以我想媒體說請主委 陸委會主委去對校長說教這個我覺得真的是"},{"start":4427.805,"end":4452.78,"text":"你觉得在高级校长会议这么重要的一个不管你是大拜拜嘉年华大家讨论的事情来说然后呢你却要来讨论这个思考我也觉得这样子的这个所谓的国家安全很重要可是这是国家大学校长的会议当中你坐在台下你先老实说如果排开次长的身份你觉得台下去听大学校长听这一段话你觉得这么难的机会专题演讲你觉得这样有你觉得这样合适吗"},{"start":4453.621,"end":4466.077,"text":"我想我在下面是真的很坦诚的跟委员报告我在这边听的时候我觉得里面有一些资讯是还蛮宝贵的适合在我也同意邱先生演讲我听过那问题是大学校长会议"},{"start":4467.049,"end":4488.259,"text":"另外也跟委員報告 因為我們安排給他時間也沒有很長 只有30分鐘而已30分鐘還不長啊沒有啊 其實那個廖俊志院長講一個小時中研院吧好不好 中研院大學校長對廖俊志的問題沒有意見 對他是有一些意見你要去搜尋 如果你覺得在台下你也可以聽的這樣子的部分"},{"start":4489.56,"end":4518.775,"text":"这个你真的已经不太相信以前我认识的叶教授也不像是调皮的中年大叔了好不好你已经变成教育部的一个样子的人了因为我还是强调大学校长会议他的专责他的priority他对于高等教育所需要的远远高于陆委会主委应该在这边给你30分钟的时间我觉得这个是教育部应该要好好来做思考的我没有说他讲的不对但是高等全国校长会议请记住大学校长会议高教的问题比什么都重要"},{"start":4519.675,"end":4542.042,"text":"我們接下來看一下 這個東西也是屬於你的存摺範圍護理系招生創新高 但是註冊率卻下滑次長 這是屬於高教的問題因為為什麼講護理系 因為最近我們的護理荒我們最近整個的醫院所造成的部分所有行政院所有的衛婦所開出的條件就是增加我們的護理人員我們來看看"},{"start":4543.562,"end":4562.803,"text":"增加到底有没有办法真的是打到我们要的点你看看这是次长我们每一次的开出非常多的名额但是呢你看看113到现在从刚开始的93%的新生注册率到79.8逐年下降逐年下降我们再往下来看"},{"start":4563.684,"end":4576.556,"text":"然后呢护理系的招生学士班硕博士班四季等等的这一步开了这么多完全是在开源但是次长你了解现在目前我们正在第一线的护理人员是来自于哪个系统的"},{"start":4577.338,"end":4603.941,"text":"是來自哪一個系統護理系護專都有護理系有嗎護理系的到底有多少護理系考到台大護理系的考到成大護理系的你去看看出來站在第一線上面急診室上面他們通常就會選擇往碩博士班甚至去當老師這是大學部的部分可是你現在還是增開名額喔還是增開名額真正的中流砥柱是哪裡"},{"start":4604.722,"end":4620.408,"text":"真的就是目前医医疗院所连护理的骨干就是我们技职系统大概是科大五专家二级特别是五专家二级但是呢你们开的名额大学每个人都在希望能够增开一些的名额可是你对护理系的名额这个部分"},{"start":4620.768,"end":4642.588,"text":"你有沒有想辦法要去做調控我覺得這才是一個很大的點重點是我還是要請教育部跟行政院表達不斷的告訴我們要解決這個我們護理人員的問題就是增開讓我們的門檻降低讓我們可以讓更多學生開更多的班讓我們可以廣收但是我告訴你如果環境不改變學校環境不改變你開太多的班再開更多的人沒有人要來練就是沒來練你看那麼多班有什麼用"},{"start":4644.622,"end":4663.448,"text":"這完全認同這個委員所說所以我們在像資源在開會在跟衛福部跟衛福部像這個周志浩周次長我們都有在談這個事情就是說其實真的關鍵是這個護理環境是不是友善職場是不是讓大家畢業之後願意留在這個地方工作這會影響到未來的學生報考的意願沒有錯所以說次長"},{"start":4665.049,"end":4675.856,"text":"你去查查看护理学生到时候现在真正站在第一线上面去做护理专职工作的跟技职这样你就有办法在这个所谓的"},{"start":4695.109,"end":4720.621,"text":"即使30分钟都可以讨论一个所以然来好吧谢谢好谢谢柯之恩委员叶次长请回我们接下来请万美玲委员好谢谢主席我们有请叶次长还有我们陈署长好有请叶次长陈署长"},{"start":4726.069,"end":4753.027,"text":"好 次長今天我們討論青年基本法我想我們來看一下這個背景我們都知道現在台灣即將要邁入超高齡的社會也就是這個數據在65歲以上可能要占到20%左右的人口但是我們一方面高齡化社會一方面又少子化的來臨所以我們可以看到青年其實在我們國家未來的發展它占了非常關鍵的位置跟非常關鍵的力量那也是我們社會創新跟經濟動能的一個重要的支柱"},{"start":4753.627,"end":4764.522,"text":"那這個背景是非常的重要的但是我們在討論立法保障七年之前我想我們今天有許多的版本那包括這個教育部跟專家學院自己都討論過我們針對七年來界定不過呢以上大家不同的版本不同的看法"},{"start":4770.109,"end":4792.268,"text":"今年年龄这上面来的界定有18到35啦18到45啦那包括这个亲自会提到的是18到35但是事实上这个年龄的范围其实涵盖了全台大概21.36%如果按照亲自会的这个数据来看不过现在有很多专家学者有提出来说因为我们现在整个社会的变迁很多年轻人"},{"start":4792.668,"end":4811.913,"text":"不管是延遲就業啦這個延長了這個就學的時間啦生育啦結婚啦都延後了所以事實上七年的階段所謂的七年階段其實應該是更長更多元化去定義它喔那所以我們針對這個七年的年齡的定定今天聽您報告還是以這個所謂的青絲會的版本說18到35不曉得次長您認為幾歲的這個年齡的範圍喔是比較恰當的"},{"start":4816.608,"end":4821.229,"text":"跟委員報告因為對我們來講這個年齡涵蓋更多的話可以照顧到更多的人但也坦白講就變成資源會稀釋到也會被稀釋掉我想針對你講的這個部分我比較不認同因為其實因為資源稀釋然後我們就把應該照顧的那個群組變少"},{"start":4836.093,"end":4863.505,"text":"這好像也不太對所以我覺得針對年齡層這個部分我覺得我們可以再思考一下那我們再來看另外一個背景就我國現在針對未滿12歲的兒童還有這個12歲以上未滿18歲的少年我們有兒少權益保障法這您知道的那對於45歲以上的中高齡跟高齡者我們有中高齡及高齡者就業促進法那麼在上個會期也有55歲以上的壯世代政策及產業發展促進法我們看到每個年齡其實都涵蓋起來了"},{"start":4864.565,"end":4882.425,"text":"所以为什么有的版本我们有提到说要18到45可能就把各个年龄其实都涵盖在里面而符合现代多元发展的一个状况来看那但是呢我们这样看起来就是各个年龄层都有它一个保障属于它的专法在但是我们对于七年长期缺乏专属的这个法律保障所以"},{"start":4883.406,"end":4904.208,"text":"剛才好像有聽到您也在講說現在行政院現在我們也有這個版本要出來嘛但我們還是要來看一下其實過去政府的一個資源配置其實我們大概會以所謂的這個高依賴族群也就是像兒童啦老年啦為這個優先那因為相比較之下我們會覺得七年它比較有各方面自主的能力所以呢"},{"start":4904.648,"end":4925.944,"text":"今天這個次長也報告了很多相關的這個七年的政策啦計畫啦等等在推動不過看起來有很多其實都是比較輔助性的所以呢我想既然次長你們也認為應該要推動這個制定七年基本法那不曉得現在這個法您認為這個需要制定的理由是什麼然後進行到哪裡了"},{"start":4926.704,"end":4947.112,"text":"我想當然就是跟委員的指教一樣我們大家認為在這個變動的時代青年要面對的挑戰其實是比過往的很多世代更大的那怎麼樣在包括在就業、創業、居住還有身心健康等等的面向照顧他我們認為這是非常非常重要的所以聽起來這麼重要那現在進度到什麼地方了"},{"start":4947.312,"end":4961.765,"text":"各位報告我們目前這個布板已經完成了但因為裡面很多條文都牽扯到各個部會要扮演什麼樣的角色所以我們現在目前正在跟各部會在要跟各部會協調所以這個條文大家覺得OK還有地方政府"},{"start":4962.566,"end":4986.765,"text":"我想有布板的這當然是好事但我們要加緊腳步尤其您剛說的各部會還要很多事情要協調一個月內完成好那我想其實這個是這樣子為什麼我們也有這個時效性大家都很在乎這個法因為我想在2016的時候我們看到蔡政府執政的時候其實就有說過要保障青年權利的青年發展法那時候就已經提了可是我們看到哇 真的也是延長很久所以我想"},{"start":4988.266,"end":5002.893,"text":"這個刻不容緩我們一個月內我們要積極把它做完來那當然本席在這邊要另外提醒也就是說我們現在對於七年的政策其實都散落在這個各部會像剛剛您提的嘛所以缺乏針對七年階段特有問題上面我們綜合性的一個保障"},{"start":5003.453,"end":5017.864,"text":"比如說像我們今天提到低薪、工時、租屋甚至於職場一些相關的歧視心理健康等等所以我們一旦如果制定了青年基本法之外我想是要用基本法的高度跟廣度來做"},{"start":5019.105,"end":5027.689,"text":"所以我覺得刻不容緩那一個月之內其實因為散播這麼廣其實我也蠻擔心這時效有沒有辦法趕上所以我們希望能夠積極來做那另外我想今天一個重點要跟您討論就是我們關於一直在討論的行動載具管理在我們校園內我想2023年的時候聯合國的教科文組織就已經呼籲了"},{"start":5041.135,"end":5066.093,"text":"校園內應該禁止使用智慧型手機因為要藉此而來解決課堂的混亂改善學習並且保護兒童受到網路霸凌的問題這問題大家討論了很久所以我們現在看到教育的現狀我們在學生上課的時候使用手機或是智慧型手錶等等教師也都有覺得說是影響了學習的專注力獨立思考的能力以及他在教學現場的一些困擾等等"},{"start":5066.673,"end":5094.443,"text":"那過去還有發生如果跟這個教室之間也許有些糾紛不同意見看法的時候家長有時候可能會請學生就拿這個手機或智慧手錶來錄音錄影那也造成更加強的一些對立等等那這些狀況我想在教文委員會我們在上個會期也召開過公聽會教育部在當時有承諾在今年二月份的時候就這個學期開學的時候我們就要來完成修訂高中以下學校校園行動載具使用原則"},{"start":5096.945,"end":5108.46,"text":"當時就有承諾那但是呢最近呢教育部又改口了改口說要延宕到114年學年度實施也就是這個九月份但是呢我們看到三月你才在召集大家來開會還在聽取意見公聽會都開過為何這麼慢"},{"start":5112.345,"end":5125.077,"text":"跟委員報告 事實上是我們是去年十月開公定會然後今年二月的時候因為我們覺得也要收集學生團體的意見但是你有承諾說今年二月啊就要完成修訂啊這個承諾為什麼跳票"},{"start":5127.15,"end":5140.776,"text":"我們當初是提說2月要提出草案啦那我們目前草案已經提出來了所以我們最近沒有喔 當時有說就是2月要完成修正喔我們是提出草案因為我們提出草案為了勝仗來 我們來討論一下"},{"start":5143.037,"end":5163.992,"text":"所以现在目前学校对于行动载具这个管理的规范是不一的包括有些学校是统一收或者是这个角那有些学校是完全禁止当然也有学校就是说尊重自主这样所以每个学校状况不一样那这造成了现场第一线的教室管理非常的困难所以我想请教一下您刚刚也说草案现在出来了是"},{"start":5164.232,"end":5181.921,"text":"請問一下修訂的方向目前是朝全國一致性有相關的管理規則那有的話是什麼或者是還是一樣像現在一樣把責任丟給各校各老師去管理是哪一種我們目前其實就是一些重要的原則是所有的學校都應該要採哪些叫重要的原則譬如說上課時間他就是應該要"},{"start":5183.371,"end":5196.498,"text":"統一保管不能拿出來然後一直到什麼時間什麼樣的情況下他才有機會可以拿出來用所以我們現在草案的大方向是傾向於全國統一管理就是上課時間不能使用是這樣子嗎確定嗎是"},{"start":5198.419,"end":5207.35,"text":"好 那我想因為我們看到其實立法院的法治局其實也有提出來就是說我們現在全部都是用行動載具使用原則來做規範這可能會衍生侵犯學生個人財產權的法律爭議"},{"start":5213.999,"end":5228.06,"text":"也會引起學校在執行的時候跟教室在實行的時候引起跟學生跟教室間的一些爭議在所以我在想那我們為什麼不提到告法律的慰藉如果用原則將來如果學生或家長面臨司法告訴有沒有這樣的機會那又應該怎麼辦"},{"start":5230.222,"end":5253.372,"text":"因為目前國民教育法跟高級中等教育法已經有相關的規範所以在那個架構下我們就可以規範學生在這件事情的行為所以目前還沒有需要到修法因為修法可能還要再更久本席在這裡提醒啦這後面如果真的下去總會有一兩個案例萬一面臨到這個司法告訴的時候我覺得老師還是會有壓力在的那另外我想更重要的是這個法"},{"start":5253.952,"end":5278.288,"text":"當然是重要的依據可是呢次長不曉得您知不知道在108年的時候教育部有推動12年國教那這個課程有把科技資訊與媒體素養列為當時的九大核心素養之一那更在112年的3月的時候有公佈數位時代媒體素養教育白皮書那時候也是在這個潘部長的時代那但是呢我們看起來公佈是公佈了"},{"start":5279.609,"end":5305.344,"text":"似乎沒有落實也沒有在相關的執行所以呢我們要來達到所謂的培養知情負責及利他的數位公民很重要但卻沒有做那教育部是不是可以把校園行動載具這個管理來做納入到這個推動我們數位公民素養教育計劃那來透過我們的家校合作的指引例如除了法之外是不是有什麼辦法有什麼計劃"},{"start":5306.164,"end":5319.37,"text":"可以跟家長跟老師來說明孩子們要怎麼樣正確去使用這個手機或是智慧型的載具再來還有我們所謂的數位共鳴應該怎麼達成不要只有每次提出一個計劃那計劃輪口號就結束了"},{"start":5321.594,"end":5345.584,"text":"我想委員的這個建議非常好,我們會來研議那也跟委員報告台灣的孩子資訊素養在國際的評比上面我們是在排這個前幾名的目前是排第一的,所以但我想這個地方永遠都還有我們可以再加強的地方所以委員剛才提到怎麼樣幫忙跟家長來一起來跟家長來教育一家長一起來做這個事情我想我們會待會去研議"},{"start":5345.964,"end":5365.34,"text":"宣導啦,你也很難教育家長,但宣導啦那我在想喔,我剛剛所提的這個喔能不能在一個時間內,你提出來我們應該要怎麼做這也是延續之前潘部長的一個想法呀是多久你可以把它提出來我們可能在一個月的時間之內來規劃一下一個月內,好不好,謝謝市長謝謝委員好,謝謝萬美林委員我們接下來請林佩祥委員質詢"},{"start":5379.741,"end":5380.783,"text":"有請葉次長有請葉次長"},{"start":5390.575,"end":5415.271,"text":"葉市長 在我看到這個青年基本法的草案書面報告從行政院人事行政總署回來的答覆好像對於這個法會認為說這個法是個跌床架屋因為他目前仔細仔細看這一頁報告裡面他所有講的都是說有關這個青年基本法基本上目前所有部會的功能都可以把它cover到"},{"start":5415.831,"end":5443.437,"text":"所以對這個青年基本法行政院人事行政總處是認為說可能這個法是必要性不足那請問你的想法呢我想就是說確實現在很多在照顧青年的政策政府都已經在做但是這些事情怎麼樣透過一個基本法這樣一個比較高的位階來規範說這就是我們所有部位這個政府應該要做的事情我覺得它其實還是有它立法的必要性"},{"start":5443.757,"end":5472.49,"text":"那你現在是在體制內的次長如果說你要落實像這樣的基本法的話請問你會從哪個方面下手如果你只能做一件事從一個方面下手你會從哪個方面下手因為這個其實是需要跨部會一起來做的就是你現在假設你是因為老實說我另外一個問題是想請問就是說這邊有說行政院已設青年諮詢委員會並由行政院院長當三級召集人"},{"start":5472.97,"end":5498.627,"text":"我們這個法正式開始討論的時間是2023年6月9號那請問從2023年6月9號到今天我們這個行政院的青年諮詢委員會一共開過多少次會那有哪些人參與甚至是說他們有做了哪些政策上的提議或者改變來造福青年這部分我請署長來回應一下"},{"start":5500.427,"end":5529.127,"text":"那目前我們行政院的青年諮詢委員會已經進入到第五屆那特別是在上屆的會期我們很多委員有提到這個部分所以在青年基本法的這個部分也涉及到泡泡會青年主流化不好意思我是問說這個諮詢委員會本身來講最後面它是說討論議題邀集各相關部會共同延伸政策方向那請問最後面以落實青年公共參與最後面落實了些什麼事情有做出哪些政策上的改變跟提議嗎"},{"start":5532.35,"end":5553.904,"text":"在這個部分我們就是有縣市還有學者專家還有青年我們都一起那現在在這個今年基本法我們教育部要你提的這個草案內容部分我們就涵蓋進來市長這就是我講的為什麼說提出一個方向去做因為最後面如果說繼續這樣下去最後面就是把這個整個所有的責任分到所有機關裡面去"},{"start":5555.285,"end":5572.225,"text":"如果只能做 如果青年基本法假設你現在在體制內你要推動改革 你要推動改變那你只能選一個方向來做而不會讓這邊全部煽動都是各個部會 其他部會的問題都是其他憲政市府的問題假設如果你能夠改變一個方向 你會做什麼"},{"start":5572.825,"end":5594.996,"text":"跟委員報告,像剛才委員提到行政院青年資訊委員會,其實這個會議召開的時候是所有的部會長官主管都要到,然後包括青年針對現在政府的很多政策,他的意見提出來是卓院長親自聆聽,然後當場指派說哪個部會哪個主管要處理這個問題,而且都會列管。"},{"start":5595.496,"end":5613.046,"text":"所以其實這個部分就是也因為透過這樣的力量所以各個部會就是能夠很確實的去執行這個很多青年提出來的一些意見跟建議這樣子確實的哪一點其實非常多這個已經第五屆其實有很多的政策都有是青年提出來的後來落實"},{"start":5615.007,"end":5636.763,"text":"我認為如果把它列出來會讓所有人不是朝野各所有人對於青年的未來意見會比較有一個清楚的輪廓我希望說會後我們能提供這方面的資料那再來是有關因為這次青年基本法官報會需要很多部會那當然很多部會給出的提案跟這個回答順便回答本席會看了覺得"},{"start":5637.944,"end":5659.858,"text":"有些地方會讓我覺得蠻奇特的像是在經濟部在第二大在第二大項的第二大項的第三上面第三投資這上面那他是說我們會運用行政院國發基金100億來推動這個中小企業實施方案共同投資國內中小及輕創企業113年度共投資25家29案"},{"start":5666.182,"end":5685.112,"text":"這個意思應該如果我如果解讀的沒錯的話等於平均一案拿到4億的補助那我想請問一下這個市長或經濟部的代表請問一下這個青創企業你們的definition你們的這個定義是什麼我想可能我再請經濟部來回答一下"},{"start":5686.874,"end":5705.129,"text":"跟委員做一個報告青壯企業我們是年限希望在八年以內但是這整個青壯企業不盡然是全部是由大部分的經營者是青年所以我們只是說在這樣子的一個機制之下對於有發展潛力的青年或者是青年所設立的青壯企業"},{"start":5705.669,"end":5717.795,"text":"我也想請問一下就是說那這些青創企業你們補助過了他們會重複拿到補助嗎還是只是一次一次案一次而已他們有重複補助的狀況嗎"},{"start":5718.88,"end":5745.75,"text":"是 我們盡量會避免這情況因為對於青年的協議所以可能有那如果有的話你們把它列出來我們想知道說如果有重複補助的狀況而且主婦的補助的金額是多少那它最重要的是五年內的生存率有多高因為畢竟來講一百億的國發基金拿來補助中小企業跟輕創企業假設說是輕創企業我們需要更明確的資料畢竟這是國家人的納稅錢"},{"start":5746.73,"end":5773.498,"text":"那既然經濟部到了我還有另外一個奇怪的問題對不起 現在委員報告一下國發基金這部分是屬於投資就是看到這個新創企業未來的發展潛力由經濟部 由國發會搭配特定的長官不好意思投資也要看投資報酬率是的那我們也想知道投資去哪裡投資標的是哪裡那投資最後面結果是怎麼樣我想這個我們都有權知道吧沒有沒有 我跟委員報告一下現在100億"},{"start":5775.259,"end":5796.41,"text":"投25家不是說25家拿了100億不是是那個基金100億那個基金可是要用很多年的所以去年至少說投資哪幾家輕創我們想知道那投資過去幾年之間有沒有重複給這個Grant好我們把這資料提供給委員會的參考更重要的是五年之內的投資過的至少從2020年到現在投資過的後來五年內的生存率為何"},{"start":5801.753,"end":5819.442,"text":"所以這樣子如果說五年多一個公司五年都撐不到的話那我們這個投資可能就打水漂了很明顯投資就不合比例那既然還有另外一個也是經濟部講的我其實對於經濟部這些字我覺得有點不太了解因為畢竟來講五大信賴產業裡面你們說半導體人工智能"},{"start":5821.323,"end":5829.029,"text":"工智慧安控跟次世代通訊我都可以理解透過主題競賽產業合作跟國際連結可能可以幫輕創產業這邊講輕創企業對吧那我想請問軍工業怎麼透過主題競賽產業合作跟國際連結幫軍工業做好這個開拓市場那我想請問軍工業指的是哪一個系統呢"},{"start":5847.107,"end":5851.055,"text":"連合國五大理事國都有各自的系統那請問我們的軍工業要符合哪個系統"},{"start":5852.074,"end":5875.693,"text":"像委員報告這個主要是說在有關於相關的軍工領域的應用像現在的無人機、機器人以及像我們有很好的這些技能性的防品那這些防品如果應用在相關的國防或者是相關的應用領域我們著重的是希望能夠引導新創事業能夠瞄準這些未來具有國際競爭力的這個領域去做相關的發展"},{"start":5878.335,"end":5905.083,"text":"我的重點還是在於青創因為這次是青年基本法那青創企業這個名詞我不希望被濫用我希望有個更明確的definition有更明確的定義出來而且對於青創我們的輔助對他們未來的走向跟他們實質上怎麼樣操作企業我覺得需要更明確讓我們知道更多一點所以對於青創企業這一點來講我希望會後可以補充多一點資料讓本席來瞭解是的好 謝謝"},{"start":5907.844,"end":5910.105,"text":"好 謝謝林沛翔委員質詢接下來請林營警專委質詢好 謝謝 請葉次長"},{"start":5923.883,"end":5944.617,"text":"請次長三號這個會期第一次跟次長見面那我想首先就是要跟您談這個重中之重七年基本法這個七年基本法在我上上個會期當召委的時候我就有排公聽會那這是我在進來立法院之後"},{"start":5946.058,"end":5960.425,"text":"舉辦公聽會參與委員最多的一次有二十幾位的立法委員來參與發言那可見大家對於這個今年基本法的共識是相當的高所以我想這個今年基本法"},{"start":5961.886,"end":5978.767,"text":"我們在這個會期的首週就拍案也代表我們每個人對這個法的重視那所以我們都很期待我們可以儘早提出院版那剛剛您回答柯之恩委員是說這個會期一定會送來立法院 是不是"},{"start":5979.187,"end":5997.046,"text":"是 跟委員報告我們現在剛才提到說布版已經出來了所以我們現在在跟這個地方政府還有各部會在做協調我們預計在一個月內完成協調之後就報院預告然後然後這個就報院然後我們預期在這個會期之內應該是院版是可以出來的好"},{"start":5997.426,"end":6021.434,"text":"期待這個速度還是期待你去push一下那因為青年議題是近年來國人越來越重視青年到底是什麼樣的群體我想長期您在大學擔任教授也跟青年在一起那麼多年那青年就是最有吸引的思維跟最有行動力最有理想性所以他會是社會運作很大強大的助力"},{"start":6022.194,"end":6042.01,"text":"所以我想青年在社會上他面臨就業也好、就學、創業、居住很多的這個議題其實他相對的薄弱所以我想我們為什麼要有這個青年基本法就是要透過這樣的一個根本大法來支撐他有一些執法來幫忙他然後有一個整盤的計畫"},{"start":6043.431,"end":6060.949,"text":"那像您擔任大學那麼多年的老師那您在大學端看到的就是說孩子面臨到目前青年面臨到困境除了我剛講的這些所謂的就業、就學、創業、居住、健康等等這些議題你覺得還有一些困境是現在青年面臨到的困境嗎"},{"start":6061.87,"end":6081.177,"text":"我覺得可能他有一些困境是因為我們在整個台灣社會特別很多的家庭很多爸媽孩子對升學這個事情是很重視的包括這幾年這個很多人這個補習這個很多數據寫這個都是補全科的以前的年代就補一兩科現在爸媽就比較焦慮補全科所以很多孩子就是"},{"start":6081.897,"end":6106.269,"text":"到18歲之前他是不是有那個機會可以探索出自己真正的興趣跟方向這件事情是一個比較大的一個現在我覺得一個挑戰所以很多孩子他進了這個科系之後才發現這不是他要的因為他就是這個按照分數填按照薪水高低填填了以後才發現這不是他要的時候那這個其實就出現說他在在這個大學的求學過程中變得很迷茫這個是一個"},{"start":6107.229,"end":6134.988,"text":"有部分青年在這個過程在在學期間覺得迷茫不知道自己的下一步方案在哪裡我想這個是現在我們青年問題裡面一個比較重要的要來一起來解決的一塊當然我想青年很多的問題不過說政府能幫忙的政府能具體幫忙的我知道近幾年其實政府推出很多相關的這個政策包括很多委員都有提及擴大租金的補貼拉近公私立這個學校學費的補貼"},{"start":6136.949,"end":6153.642,"text":"投資青年就業方案等等不過許多青年的事業就是分散在各個部會所以講白了就是說青年政策不是各部會的核心政策所以我們為什麼要這樣子來統整也是因為面臨到這樣的困境"},{"start":6155.523,"end":6178.051,"text":"那所以我想制定一個這樣青年基本法我們就是說希望用長遠的規劃跟眼光來展現我們對青年的支持我想很多青年的團體其實都眼睜睜的在看著我們怎麼樣對他們展現支持的態度那透過這個原則性跟指引性的這個法律規範我們可以引導各部會跟地方政府"},{"start":6178.591,"end":6197.82,"text":"執行的地方政府有一個相關的這個政策的指引那來激情回應地方的青年的訴求那我想我們長期關心這個青年基本法的立法的進度那剛剛柯志偉委員也有提到這個進度確實是緩慢的我們在去年五月就辦了公聽會"},{"start":6200.501,"end":6210.008,"text":"我們辦公室一直在詢問心靈署這個進度那可是都回應都還是在收集意見的這個階段包括我們上上個會期辦公廳會"},{"start":6215.592,"end":6239.574,"text":"上個會期就問說那現在進度如何那你們就回答說現在還在收集意見研擬青年政策白皮書那到這個會期再次詢問那還是得到差不多答案沒有重大的進展那到今年三月底我們才看到說你們要到北中南東的大學去舉辦青年政策白皮書的公民對話的這個活動"},{"start":6241.636,"end":6263.281,"text":"市長我想青年署是你督導的範圍那你上任也有快一年我想你要不要簡要說明一下你對於制定這個青年基本法你做出哪些努力我想因為這個法牽扯到很多的部會那其實從中央各個部會到地方政府它未來要扮演什麼角色都要在基本法裡面把它定出來我想"},{"start":6263.861,"end":6280.86,"text":"這個也就是為什麼可能青年署在過去是比較在這個世界上比較謹慎就覺得說這個應該我也不能只聽政府單位的意見在青年的意見青年還有分很多地方不同還有不同的這個涉及狀況的青年我們就希望我想這也是求好心切希望能夠"},{"start":6281.741,"end":6302.06,"text":"真的把這些東西都更能夠廣羅大意見所以我想這部分也很抱歉我們過去大概這個時間花得比較久但我想這個會期我們會很積極我想我們現在大概就是白皮書跟基本法這兩個部分要就把它脫鉤啦就是之前會想說白皮書訂出來基本法再可能就是可以搭配但我想我們現在就是基本法"},{"start":6302.64,"end":6304.542,"text":"這個架構先出來白皮書我們還是在繼續進行這兩個就是不會互相的影響這樣子因為談到這個就有一些感嘆就是說撞促法"},{"start":6317.877,"end":6330.254,"text":"推了三個月就三讀通過那可是青年基本法就還在路上那所以民間團體像世代共好他們之前就有表達說立法院通過專法保障壯世代卻獨獨漏了現在迫切"},{"start":6334.199,"end":6360.875,"text":"面對多元困境的崩世代就是所謂現在的青年世代那我想這個落差一定會加深世代的對立所以我想反覆提醒我們行政院要加緊腳步教育部要加緊腳步就是這樣的一個原因那我們回到法案的本身就是說教育部清發署我們為了落實賴總統國家希望工程的這個政見它有提及各項的青年政策所以我們去年在9月16號有辦"},{"start":6363.056,"end":6379.735,"text":"全國青年事務單位首長會議那有共計有17個縣市青年的事務單位首長來出行那我認為這是一個相當好的連結的機制那有望整合中央資源跟地方的量能那也可以發展出多元青年創新政策的想法"},{"start":6380.376,"end":6394.422,"text":"那這也是很多個立法委員在我們這個青年基本法的草案呼籲的精神就是中央跟地方還有地方橫向怎麼樣加強聯繫還有中央跟地方的青年政策的落實喔那好 可是這個聯繫的機制怎麼樣確實"},{"start":6397.954,"end":6420.443,"text":"執行我想這才是一個很大的重點那因為現在首先因為各縣市有專責青年的這個單位到底盤整的怎麼樣那到底他的層級到如何我想這個都是我們未來要怎麼樣中央地方聯繫的一個重要的重點所以我就要請教你就是說目前你了解的就是說"},{"start":6422.424,"end":6443.159,"text":"要這個地方的這個設立這個層級那就是說怎麼樣建立地方青年政策這個參與機制還有擴大辦理多元職場體驗方案這個之外我們怎麼樣針對地方政府的督導計畫還有地方這個政府的層級要如何的這個就目前的現況跟未來要怎麼樣輔導您的看法"},{"start":6444.96,"end":6461.597,"text":"我想這個就像委員提到我們去年開始我們認為說地方政府他們我們非常開心看到說地方政府都有青年專責的單位出來但是這個青年事務要怎麼做有的他剛開始成立他沒有太多的經驗然後所以我想說我們想說我們青髮署有很多的一些經驗可以分享給大家"},{"start":6462.077,"end":6477.485,"text":"還有包括說現在有什麼政策有些什麼好康的你如果地方的青年局知道的話那他們那個縣市的青年就比較有機會透過他們地方可以得到這樣的資訊所以這也是為什麼我們去年第一次把大家揪起來一起來做經驗分享"},{"start":6478.726,"end":6504.327,"text":"辦得成效非常好所以今年我們就繼續來辦大家這些地方現在的狀況像委員提到有的地方它可能是到局或處有的地方它可能就是科每個地方這個位階不一樣坦白講因為這個是地方自治這件事我們其實是沒有辦法干涉的但我們未來可能會透過一些方式比如說我們可能會讓社會更知道說各個縣市大家在這個"},{"start":6505.188,"end":6529.945,"text":"大家的慰藉是怎麼樣大家在地方事務做得怎麼樣某種程度的讓大家知道說哪個縣市在地方事務上他願意投入比較多的資源我想這個有一個就是一個團體的動力讓大家慢慢大家說別的縣市都是局你這個縣市只有柯可能他的縣市長慢慢也會感覺到說好像我們在這個事情上要把它提升慰藉我想我們來營造一個這樣的動力就是說"},{"start":6531.826,"end":6546.98,"text":"彼此之間 縣市之間的相互的影響這個我覺得他是比較有機會來在不干預到地方自治的情況之下然後能夠有效的讓各個地方對這個事情更重視這樣子好 謝謝次長好 謝謝謝謝以儉詹委質詢 次長請回好 我們接下來請葛如軍委員"},{"start":6566.516,"end":6568.781,"text":"好謝謝主席有請教育部葉秉成次長有請葉次長"},{"start":6574.997,"end":6600.789,"text":"市長好我看您今天氣色不錯真的是大家都很高興也希望教育部可以一起努力同時您昨天也發文也針對這個學習歷程也多做了一點補充也是好事首先我們也還是要來感謝我們的林怡瑾召委對於青年議題的重視馬上來排審青年基本法的詢答完全可以說是忽念賴總統非常重視我們的青年人認為青年人就是國家未來的說法"},{"start":6601.969,"end":6627.385,"text":"那其實為了今天的詢答本席特別去查詢了一下目前一讀進入委員會的版本共有18個那甚至吳思堯委員的提案甚至有47位其他的立法委員共同的連署但是其中最弔詭的是目前有13位民進黨委員所提出的法案當中竟然沒有任何一個版本提到要設立青年發展基金"},{"start":6628.546,"end":6651.15,"text":"事實上我們可以看到原本有七位民進黨委員所提出的法案就有放青年發展基金的條文但是卻在113年7月12號同時撤案這種七個委員的法案同天撤案的情況在立法院真的是非常罕見而且今天所有列席部會的書面報告裡剛好也同步了"},{"start":6651.91,"end":6677.008,"text":"對於這樣的一個所謂的青年發展基金缺席的狀況完全同步對於有多位國民黨委員的版本當中所提到的青年發展基金隻字未提各位列席的官員們到底你們是忘記了還是沒有看國民黨委員提出來的法案呢現在民進黨執政我們都知道民進黨內有所謂黨政溝通的平台讓立法院、行政院、民進黨中央的三者一見一致想請教次長"},{"start":6677.948,"end":6693.989,"text":"雖然教育部的青年基本法的版本尚未提出那我們是不是可以先確認因為今天報告都沒有提到青年法案基金嘛這是不是就是教育部的立場不會有基金也是行政院的立場更是賴清德黨主席所率領的民進黨所有委員的立場"},{"start":6694.83,"end":6709.471,"text":"可不可以回應跟這個委員報告這個因為如果要設置發展基金的話在財政紀律法的這個規定當中其實就是說這個財政紀律法要求你要有財源所以基金一定要有財源成功設置這個部分我想我可以請主計總處來做一個補充說明"},{"start":6711.093,"end":6731.847,"text":"不好意思我後面還有很多題目這個主席總署其實這個理由我們都聽過了但是重點就是你們現在是中央你們現在是執政事實上增加預算調整預算是各位的責任我認為這不是理由可以來不編所謂的青年發展的基金我希望教育部委員那不是預算是要裁員"},{"start":6734.269,"end":6748.085,"text":"不是預算財源就在你們的口袋當中嗎財源就是比如說你像這個像那個運發基金你要有這個彩券的這個好沒關係我們來看我們來看對不起次長您的答案很好我還是提醒要行政中立不要被執政黨的立場誤導或綁架我在這邊就說明跟次長鄭重的說明"},{"start":6753.07,"end":6760.098,"text":"事實上從預算來看呢教育部113年法定預算3345億114年度的增加278億增幅高達8.3%那我們單看青年署的預算呢從113年度7.5億跳增到19.3億增幅高達157%"},{"start":6774.373,"end":6795.122,"text":"這只是一個預算成長的規模但是您說沒有裁員沒有基金我跟部長說明事實上我們所有的基本法我國目前有11個其中有8個基本法都有設置發展基金其他基本法都有裁員為什麼到教育部這裡講到青年就沒有裁員請部長說明請次長說明"},{"start":6800.641,"end":6811.25,"text":"這個可能跟立法時間是有關係的時空環境條件不同之數拜託市長不要用在這裡我再給您一次機會說明有沒有其他理由"},{"start":6812.95,"end":6830.465,"text":"我想就是我們必須要依法實證啊財政紀律法你這邊財政紀律法你沒有裁員的時候你就沒有辦法發展基金啊沒有關係市長我想我們就平和啦抱歉我剛剛是這個算是比較激動一點我收回我的態度我真的是希望啦針對青年的發展"},{"start":6830.805,"end":6846.202,"text":"我們希望有一個固定的裁員這樣才能保持我們的青年基本法在執行上面有一定的行政中立的空間也能夠永續這也是為什麼其他的基金都會其他的基本法都會設立基金否則到時候呢這個法"},{"start":6847.483,"end":6868.768,"text":"可能會變成空中樓閣畫餅充饑到最後很可能又來哭窮賣慘這都不是民眾希望能夠看到的到目前為止我們還是認為教育部或者我們相關的主計單位並沒有提出合理的說法也希望次長再跟我們主計單位了解一下去了解為什麼其他人可以我們為什麼不行否則呢大家很可能會懷疑一件事"},{"start":6870.956,"end":6897.954,"text":"既然剛剛我們沒有得到說法我們還是要拿出這塊板子民進黨目前為止反對青年發展基金的設立就算要做基本法民進黨也還是反對青年發展基金的設立民進黨反對青年發展基金的設立十部基本法十一部基本法裡面有八部都有青年發展基金青年不值得一個基金嗎同時我們還是希望"},{"start":6899.236,"end":6918.614,"text":"這個教育部的預算今年增加了將近三百億還錢於青年有這麼難嗎那委員這個我們今年增加了三百億的預算很多都是用在青年的包括租屋補助還有他的拉近學雜費都是在幫助青年的所以有裁員嘛所以有裁員嘛已經還錢於青年的所以有裁員嘛已經還錢於青年的所以有裁員嘛好很好謝謝次長講了喔"},{"start":6919.915,"end":6939.018,"text":"所以教育部不要再哭窮賣慘了不要再說這個也沒有那個也沒有不要到時候什麼清支會沒有衛生紙沒有水民營的這些錢很多都會受影響對 這個我想要讓也還是要忠實的讓委員知道沒關係我還是要跟次長講一句話我想我們都是科學家我們都是科學的信仰者"},{"start":6939.759,"end":6950.397,"text":"希望不要被執政黨的各種說法牽著鼻子走行政中立是有法律依據的拜託 謝謝次長接下來我想 本席想請教關於TICA的這個問題"},{"start":6953.149,"end":6971.683,"text":"再次本席肯定教育部尤其是葉市長對於TAI CA的大力推動那第二學期的參與學校數從25校增加到55校表示我們又朝數位平權AI擴展更進一步讓更多的學生能夠運用AI 善用AI不過昨天有媒體報導"},{"start":6973.484,"end":6992.16,"text":"疑似有這個課程困難 作業太多期末的時候有部分的學校一半的學生因為沒有參與完課程完全放棄有數間大學表示上個學期大約有兩成的選科學生於期末前停修那我想我們都一起很關心這個議題到底是什麼原因"},{"start":6992.62,"end":7004.051,"text":"是作業太多 課程程度跟不上 還是說是不是教課的內容跟學生自己已經對AI的理解很可能已經銜接不了 老師的東西太高空 還是太難 還是太複雜沒有銜接到現在的AI 還是因為考核的方式出了問題也跟您分享 這個諾貝爾獎得主舒爾茲在台灣在台師大那一場我有去聽"},{"start":7018.464,"end":7046.477,"text":"他說AI將翻轉教育所以我們的平和標準可能也要改變想請教一下次長這個人數選科人數增加但是結業人數很可能比例在下降有沒有了解原因進一步提供輔導或協助跟委員報告因為我們這個台卡這個聯盟他在開這個課他目的是要幫台灣培養優質的AI的人才所以在我們的課程裡面我們這課程的品質的要求是有要求的這不是一個隨便放水的營養課程"},{"start":7047.617,"end":7075.265,"text":"所以很多學生因為我們也因為讓更多的學生可以來修課但這個過程當中有兩成的學生他發現說他沒有辦法符合這個課程的需求或是說像我自己這學期就有在聯盟教課也有不少學生跟我說老師我的課真的很滿但是我真的很想學我可以旁聽就好所以其實這個有很多的原因但我認為最重要的是我們要有品質這個不是一個隨便可以放水的營養課程謝謝謝謝次長的說明也希望除了品質以外也要平衡"},{"start":7075.925,"end":7092.21,"text":"因為我們AI的這個需求其實也很多元有的學生可能需要的是比較普及的這些訊息也許未必是這種功課很重考試很重或很難的課程這個是來自學生的意見也希望次長可以考慮最後本席想要給葉次長30秒的時間每次遇到您我都希望您可以來為這個TiCA的課程來進行宣傳這次的選客人數我有看報導從之前的2000多人已經提升到4000多人"},{"start":7104.375,"end":7130.271,"text":"五千人很好我們希望可以趕快破萬所以我們提請昭偉可不可以給我們的次長30秒的時間宣傳一下AI跨校課程的內容我想就是說我們把全台灣教AI最厲害的老師放在一個很棒的學習平台上讓我們希望讓全台灣的孩子學生不管你在哪個大學你都可以修到最好的AI的課程所以你只要你對AI有興趣歡迎大家來台一咖修課謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":7133.234,"end":7141.859,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝葛如君 張偉我們接下來請陳秀寶委員質詢那在吳佩儀委員質詢之後我們休息十分鐘謝謝主席 請教育部葉次長有請葉次長"},{"start":7157.353,"end":7175.862,"text":"市長早安,在跟您討論關於今天的青春基本法之前呢,我也覺得一個很重要的關於學生權益的問題先來跟市長您請教近日有傳出制服地圖這個網站恐怕有侵害未成年學生各自的這個情況"},{"start":7177.043,"end":7192.46,"text":"那最近有學生發現自己近期在個人的社群上面所上傳的穿著學校制服的照片那在未被智慧未經允許的情況之下呢被放在制服地圖的網站上那我們到這個網站上面瀏覽發現說照片是以女學生為主"},{"start":7196.644,"end":7217.915,"text":"甚至還有國中國小的學生穿著這個制服的照片那可以清晰的看見學生的臉以及學校還有姓名等這些個資那這個網站甚至透過讓民眾瀏覽各校學生制服照片來賺取廣告的點擊這是非常非常嚴重的去侵害到學生權益"},{"start":7218.916,"end":7228.987,"text":"那目前呢新北教育局已經有要求他們各校來調查這個事情那我想請教次長教育部關於這個事件有什麼因應的措施我想這個"},{"start":7233.855,"end":7258.488,"text":"這個部分我想我們應該要來教導學生說怎麼樣來更保護自己的權益那我想這個部分因為這個網站就我們的了解是他是讓別人自己上傳照片之後讓他未經審核他就直接就公開的出來給大家看那這個其實就是他會稱得到各支法還有駐州權法很多的所以我想這個大概就是一些在法律上的這些問題"},{"start":7260.109,"end":7276.002,"text":"因為制服地圖這個事件是涵蓋全台各所學校不是只有新北所以我希望說教育部這邊你們應該要求各縣市各主管機關要辦理後續的追蹤並且應該我們提供給學生這些學生他相關救濟的管道"},{"start":7276.522,"end":7298.808,"text":"那後續也應該要跟樹發部這邊來研議就是說如何防止這一些相片繼續在網路上散播來維護學生的權益那我現在是要請教您說針對這個事件像新北市他已經有請他們讓他們的相關的這個學校來調查那我們教育部這邊現在有什麼做法我這邊可以請國教署來說來補充說明一下"},{"start":7303.783,"end":7332.563,"text":"好那跟委員報告那因為部裡面在去年3月的時候其實是有頒布了那學校在處理有關數位跟網路性別暴力事件的一些指引那這些指引裡面是有提醒學校面對這些事項來講的話那從通報到後面的處理處置都有一些引導那這樣子您就是告訴我說更針對這個事情你們教育部這邊還沒有相關的因應措施來告訴各縣市的主管機關如何來做是不是"},{"start":7333.684,"end":7348.382,"text":"應該是說在這個指引當中對於面對這樣的事件它是有一些引導措施那對於這件個別的事項我們會來請因為目前新北市的部分它的那個刑事大隊已經"},{"start":7349.483,"end":7373.864,"text":"在辦理這件事情那我們也會同步來請各縣市來督導學校我要再一次提醒喔這個事件其實是涵蓋全台各所學校都會有所以請你們教育部這邊盡快針對這個事件我們是不是通知各縣市我們的教育單位跟主管機關盡快的來了解這個事情而且提供給相關的這些有受到權益損害的學生有救濟的管道好嗎"},{"start":7375.325,"end":7397.414,"text":"那接下來也是跟這個事情有關架設這個網站的工程師是以這個網站的後台數據分析等相關網站事項來作為他碩士論文的撰寫碩士論文以這個網站為主題大量的使用為授權的未成年女學生的這個相片是涉及不法的那次展我想請教像這樣子的研究方法有沒有問題"},{"start":7398.775,"end":7406.285,"text":"這個有沒有符合專科以上學校學術倫理案件處理原則第三條第十項的其他違反學術倫理行為的要件"},{"start":7407.261,"end":7429.706,"text":"他這個研究如果有牽扯到其他人的話他其實是研究倫理他是要經過申請之後通過才可以所以是違反的嗎你覺得這個部分我想我們接下來我們會去跟他的這個學校國北教大我們會喊請學校來這個依照研究倫理跟學術責任規範我們來調查他到底這個他目前這個研究他到底有沒有"},{"start":7430.286,"end":7456.463,"text":"我們在一百年的時候有修正那個兒少權法修正有通過兒少的隱私保護條款也就是說他當時在論文口試的時候也必須遵守相關兒少隱私相關的規範但是當時的指導教授跟口試委員沒有針對這個論文使用未經授權兒少相片提這個研究方法來提出質疑所以真的這個部分次長你覺得有沒有瑕疵這個後續有什麼因應的措施"},{"start":7457.924,"end":7473.639,"text":"但我們現在還沒有喊請他來說明如果真的如該委員長講的話那當然我想他這個是有瑕疵的所以我們要喊請他說明我覺得這是很顯而易見的就是已經違反了相關的這些法規規範那這個部分我本席希望說高交端你們應該嚴格的來控管把關這個論文的品質"},{"start":7477.543,"end":7498.46,"text":"除了抄襲之外其實不應該有涉及這樣子違法的情勢那教育部這邊你們也應該協助各大學來完善論文的審查機制次長您覺得呢我要避免這樣的事件再發生完全認同我想這幾年在研究倫理的重視上面其實越來越重視那有一種可能是這個我想這個部分我會持續來宣達"},{"start":7499.341,"end":7519.719,"text":"那這些女學生發現她的相片在上面的時候她真的非常的驚嚇她們甚至有一些看起來是偷拍的以那個照片的角度來講是被偷拍的那有這樣子的事情發生更何況就是說當初她這個是為了論文說是為了論文而架設的一個網站這個本來她所做的這個依據她的想法"},{"start":7520.76,"end":7543.177,"text":"很明顯的就是說有所奈他他人權益的所以我希望說針對像這樣的事件我們應該也要有一個相關的機制相關的這樣子的流程來處理次長你儘快點演繹好嗎是好謝謝好那接下來我就是要跟次長您討論關於青年基本法我也有請人事行政總處古元林專委"},{"start":7548.328,"end":7563.79,"text":"市長昨天本席跟各位的教文委員共同有召開記者會來呼籲行政院這邊盡快提出青年基本法那市長您剛剛在回答其他委員的時候有說是一個月內可以送到立法院來一起討論"},{"start":7564.15,"end":7588.467,"text":"不是不是是那個應該是說我們現在裡面這一條我們佈板裡面有牽扯到很多其他部會的還有跟地方政府的條文那我們需要一個月的時間再把我們的草案給大家看然後收集意見然後收集之後我們就會再報行政院報行政院我們都很希望都在這個會期就可以三讀通過耶所以你們要加快一下你們的速度當然一定要跟各部會"},{"start":7589.407,"end":7604.723,"text":"充分的溝通因為我們相關的青年政策是在各個部會都有在推那這邊我想請教專委在青年基本法中其實很多委員的版本都有要求設立中央專責單位那我想請問專委說我們可不可以設立專責單位"},{"start":7607.805,"end":7630.176,"text":"其實目前現行就有了專責單位就是我們青年發展署所以中委您的意思說就是在法案通過之後我們預計是以青發署作為專責單位嗎現在目前就有現行就有但是以目前青發署它是三級機關這個預算規模跟量能它有辦法跨部會的去協調相關的青年政策相關的這些來做聯繫嗎"},{"start":7631.517,"end":7650.037,"text":"因為現在中央行政機關組織基準法的規定那個部會 部會 部會委員會的個數其實都有限制那所以以專委的意思說在目前是沒有在眼下是沒有辦法就是說在設立一個專責的單位來負責所以目前只能以清發署為主責是這樣意思嗎"},{"start":7651.404,"end":7672.82,"text":"剛委員報告 目前我們規劃在轉折單位應該是教育部但是因為會涉及到跨部會的事務所以會有行政院來召開 定期召開青年事務協調會報來協調跨部會的事情所以會有 等於是教育部搭配行政院的會報來一起來管理這些事情好 那專委您請回 我想請教一下次長"},{"start":7673.641,"end":7695.265,"text":"那在青年基本法通過之後其實剛剛很多委員有提到說對於青年會不會有明確的年齡範圍的定義這個到底是18到35啊 15到30啊這個部分是不是會有個定義喔那就像我們教育部現在辦的這個青年百億海外圓夢基金計畫那其實它的年齡範圍是15到30是不是也應該延續說把它擴大到35歲"},{"start":7699.4,"end":7721.608,"text":"而目前我們的青年基本法的草案我們是目前初步規劃是18歲到35歲我們的草案內容的年齡界定是這樣因為其實各部會青年政策的對象的年齡都不一定不一樣所以其實這樣很容易造成民眾的混淆他同樣一個年紀他去申請不同的計畫他可能那個標準門檻都不一樣所以是不是也應該在這個討論的時候跟各部會來有一個協議有一個共識"},{"start":7728.891,"end":7749.701,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在雖然草案是定18到35啦但現有的部會的很多的政策他覺得政策有因他一些性質的不一樣他可能適用的年紀可能比如說他可能是到40歲或到45歲那我們基本上是希望有這個彈性讓各部本來已經在照顧的人不要因為說因為你現在基本法設在35歲本來照顧到40歲或45歲的一些計畫全部都砍掉"},{"start":7755.163,"end":7772.593,"text":"所以我們希望有那個彈性各個部位他原本在做的有照顧到的還是繼續照顧但是我們在基本法裡面我們是以18歲到35歲明確的定義出來這樣子謝謝次長因為今天時間有限那比較詳細的內容我們在主條宣傳的時候再來討論謝謝好謝謝陳秀寶委員次長請回我們接下來請吳佩奕委員"},{"start":7786.049,"end":7790.195,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請教育部葉秉成次長有請葉次長次長好我剛剛在前面有提到說我們親自會"},{"start":7801.417,"end":7818.376,"text":"在2016年的時候曾經被國民黨批評為說是黑機關是肥貓那剛剛前面我也聽到我們林沛翔委員似乎對於親自會的運作不是那麼的熟悉了解所以我希望教育部尤其你們身為首長很重要的工作是加強溝通是"},{"start":7819.657,"end":7823.92,"text":"因為我們長期在觀察親資會我認為親資會過去提出了非常多很好的政策的建議那也給予我們的部會後續來執行對我們青年有很大的幫助例如我們的心理健康支持方案例如我們社會創新方案例如我們在校園裡面開始免費提供生理用品這些很多都是我們親資會共同研議然後也跟我們的行政部門討論的成果"},{"start":7847.634,"end":7857.176,"text":"所以你們一定要務必加強溝通讓更多的委員一起來支持我們的青年工作好不好好那接下來呢我所擔心的是我們仍然要去面對現實的情況因為呢上個預算會期立法院送出了是大幅刪減的這個最後的結果那昨天行政院提出復議包括了總預算案以及裁劃法"},{"start":7876.101,"end":7895.275,"text":"那立法院再次的維持原決議那所以呢我看到我們主計長在備詢的時候他有進行說明他說呢他擔心的是這個尤其才化法才化法在原先如果按照原先的數字中央會被拿走3753億"},{"start":7897.637,"end":7901.019,"text":"那因為在這個財化法立法院通過的時候並沒有指定說這個事權怎麼樣來區分所以如果按照平均來講少3723億如果平均分配每一個部會可能每一個部會要去減少的是28%的比例那麼主席"},{"start":7919.211,"end":7940.199,"text":"想講說因為國防預算對我們國家非常重要所以假設扣除國防預算的話哇 那每個部會平均會遇到的衝擊可能要減少的是近38%的比例我看到教育部在去年12月的時候也有發布一個新聞稿希望跟國人說明若裁劃法通過對教育部會有什麼樣的衝擊所以我現在想要請問次長如果說現在裁劃法"},{"start":7945.641,"end":7954.435,"text":"已經沒有如果了他已經通過了對教育部以預算來講目前預計會衝擊到數字是大約是多少有沒有開始評估了"},{"start":7955.589,"end":7968.955,"text":"現在差不多已經我們也開始在朝你明年度的預算但目前因為就是整個預算的狀況非常不明朗好不知道114年的預算到底是怎麼樣我們114年交易部原列預算是3623億如果說以28%來計算的話會減少的是1014億"},{"start":7976.818,"end":7981.843,"text":"如果以37%來計算的話會減少的是1340億這個是非常高的比例所以我比較擔心的是因為市長您剛前面被選的時候也有提到採劃法未來從中央減了這麼多錢那要撥到地方對青年工作有可能會不會有哪些是受到衝擊的呢"},{"start":7997.355,"end":8019.9,"text":"我想如果整體的教育部的預算受到影響的話那我想這個是很有可能其實包括好幾個面向的因為這個財務法通過之後因為財務法其中有一條本來是中央常貸性補助的這些錢一毛錢都不能少還是要中央出所以整個中央預算裡面要給地方政府的這個錢其實"},{"start":8022.24,"end":8038.158,"text":"還有相當一大塊是沒有辦法就是3700億其實還有很多的這個一個空缺是要從跟地方無關的事務的預算要從這邊扣除的那這其實會我想這對教育部未來我們是擔心他會有相當大的影響"},{"start":8038.558,"end":8040.579,"text":"所以這個都要進行很謹慎的來評估那因為我們今天審議青年基本法其實就希望可以制定一個新的法律但當我們在制定新的法律的時候裡面也有新的對青年的定義也有新的對青年工作的範圍"},{"start":8056.408,"end":8062.493,"text":"然後以及我們希望他可以橫跨各個部會也就是說他有可能會牽涉到我們行政業務的增加那業務的增加他當然必須要預算的支持所以這一點我也必須要拜託我們立法院所有的同仁倘若我們是支持青年基本法我們支持認為政府應該來當青年的後盾的話我們給法"},{"start":8078.047,"end":8087.057,"text":"也要給預算的支持才能夠讓這個工作能夠確實的來執行那我們青年基本法當然已經等待很久而且刻不容緩剛剛次長有提到說一個月內會報怨對不對這個是可以承諾的好"},{"start":8093.024,"end":8095.587,"text":"我們立法院我們期待的是這個會期要能夠來三讀通過所以我想請問次長目前你們在跟立法院的委員溝通當中有遇到什麼困難嗎"},{"start":8110.634,"end":8133.291,"text":"我想目前都還好那行政院在這個案子也是都相當關心所以你們內部行政院內部加速來討論在立法院我們也希望你們可以加強溝通我們希望可以在這個會期能夠來把它三讀通過那在青年基本法當中呢我們很關注的是在法律上面我們目前定義主管機關就是教育部這件事很重要為什麼"},{"start":8134.051,"end":8150.183,"text":"因為呢過去七年的工作全部都壓在我們清發署身上而清發署的預算今年19億這個在我們中央政府總預算的是千分之六是你們教育部三個署裡面最低的這是很低很低的預算但是呢也已經比去年多了兩倍之多"},{"start":8151.804,"end":8162.93,"text":"去年的預算甚至是7.4億那因為今年我們是新增了百億青年圓蒙基金所以讓青發署的預算增加了讓我們業務能夠去推動所以呢未來青年基本法就是要讓我們的政府各個部會那現在教育部是主責啦但是你們來籌設嘛跟其他部會來討論我們希望未來我們政府在這個行政的編列還有這個預算上面都要來給予青年更多的支持"},{"start":8180.6,"end":8197.498,"text":"因為青年基本法不只是一個口號我們有提到要做青年的主流化就是我們希望政府要定期的來評估過去我們做了什麼主流化性別主流化嘛已經推動了20年所以各個部會都是定期的都有性評的"},{"start":8198.96,"end":8216.541,"text":"統計然後相關的研究報告來看看我們有沒有什麼樣的政策推動是對性品有可能造成不利的影響所以我們也希望未來各個部會都要有能力能夠來自行也就是我們推動的政策第一個對青年發展是否有利第二個對青年發展是否會造成不利的影響"},{"start":8217.162,"end":8222.006,"text":"這應該要有一個比較客觀性的並且長期追蹤的這個調研的資料報告再來是青年的公共參與這一點我相信市長也認為相當的重要所以我們希望未來這個在我們的政策制定當中每一個青年的政策都能夠有青年的聲音這也是我們看韓國的青年基本法給我們最大的啟發然後也是我們非常多青年團體很大的期待那最後我想要請問的是"},{"start":8245.302,"end":8261.699,"text":"而在我們的這個青年工作當中其實過去很多是以學校為單位但我們現在看到很多是全國例如說跨校的社團跨校的組織甚至他是以協助青年為主軸的社團法人未來我們的青年基本法當中能不能來給予這些團體支持"},{"start":8265.083,"end":8287.335,"text":"我想這個在我們現在就已經有給他們支持未來當然會持續給他們支持是好我想這一點是非常重要也對整個新年發展工作是希望我們可以再繼續的加強努力最後要講的是制服地圖事件這個事件現在他已經有報案所以呢監警也已經介入調查那事實上我們國教署"},{"start":8288.953,"end":8310.53,"text":"依據性評法應該是也可以來去協助 倘若他是在校生他是性騷擾性霸凌事件疑似的受害者學校都可以依法來協助調查處理也可以協助當事人必要的協助這包括了與警察局或者他假設涉及到性影像處理的話"},{"start":8311.05,"end":8312.951,"text":"是能夠來進行通報跟橫向聯繫的這一個我們國教署未來能不能來有類似事件的話能不能來加強輔導學校要主動的來提供協助"},{"start":8324.11,"end":8349.064,"text":"那跟委員報告我更正一下因為委員有提及怎麼協助那我們其實在3月10號的時候已經發文給各縣市政府提醒這件事情那因為部裡面在去年3月有發布一個指引那我們提醒縣市除了依照指引之外我們其實還有兒少權法還有性剝削法等等裡面都有一些輔導措施那我們自己本身也有輔導相關的措施都引導他們還有性別平等教育的"},{"start":8349.444,"end":8366.411,"text":"部分也都一併的提醒他們要來做處理那最後如果說有一些被害的事項來講的話就會依照聯繫警察局還有一些性影像處理中心橫向下架等等的這些事項都有一併提醒以上你們有提醒各縣市政府要來"},{"start":8367.671,"end":8370.052,"text":"提醒學校要來處理那你們知不知道他們協助的結果有沒有手背有沒有掌握資訊因為我們是3月10號才發文這個是先前就已經有相關的指引那目前是針對這個個案我們再次的發文提醒學校"},{"start":8384.961,"end":8409.859,"text":"那我請你們後續要陸續追蹤好不好因為這次我們看到是很多的學生他有些因為他已經不高中生了他可能已經畢業念大學了但看到念高中的制服照片怎麼也在網站上面很多的學生還是很害怕那第一時間可能不知道要如何來求救跟求助這一點我們希望學校應該要因《性平教育法》來主動提供協助好不好好的謝謝委員謝謝主席謝謝次長"},{"start":8411.837,"end":8430.368,"text":"好 謝謝市長請回 謝謝吳佩儀委員的質詢在休息之前跟大家宣告一下說明一下我們在我們群憲樓後面那幅畫是我們文化部提供的是我們台灣本土的年輕藝術家謝宜汝她的畫作那我們現在每一個會期都會提供新的畫作展覽在我們的後方"},{"start":8438.252,"end":8450.877,"text":"這是我們全部文匯只有我們教文文匯獨一無二的所以我們在群賢101有這樣的一個福氣可以慶賀到我們台灣本土藝術家的畫作那跟大家報告一下好 我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":8473.746,"end":8502.193,"text":"謝謝謝謝謝謝"},{"start":8515.114,"end":8531.368,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的餐廳"},{"start":8537.934,"end":8539.815,"text":"好 暫休一下好 謝謝"},{"start":8559.906,"end":8579.326,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":8580.981,"end":8581.001,"text":"好"},{"start":8611.181,"end":8614.106,"text":"來做的事情就很大請就各位來看到的東西就"},{"start":8625.708,"end":8629.893,"text":"這張圖我們應該會為市民感到很感激市場是一個太多的市民還會把這張圖露給市民"},{"start":8642.068,"end":8642.548,"text":"哈哈哈哈"},{"start":8670.282,"end":8695.938,"text":"我又不是傻瓜,我就是喜歡吃辣椒脆脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的辣椒脆的�"},{"start":8698.132,"end":8698.993,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳"},{"start":8721.098,"end":8721.318,"text":"鲍鱼"},{"start":9062.662,"end":9067.323,"text":"好 請大家就座 我們會議繼續那我們接下來就請張雅玲委員質詢謝謝主席 有請葉次好 有請葉次長好 葉次好等我一下喔好 就是說"},{"start":9093.804,"end":9097.416,"text":"請問一下葉斯有聽過這句話嗎imagine yourself in our world"},{"start":9101.275,"end":9127.32,"text":"第一次聽到好 沒關係這是在2012年溫哥華水族館去講的一句話那這句話後來被鄭部長引用在中山大學他在中山大學的校長任內對所有的學生勉勵的一句話那這句話其實是一個非常重要的概念就是說我們必須要去試想我們在這樣子的一個環境之下我們可能未來我們需要什麼樣子的科技輔助或是教育所以我想這整個重點都回應到說如果我們今天要去回應青年的需求"},{"start":9127.82,"end":9148.676,"text":"我们应该非常了解青年的需要以及倾听青年的声音所以我想今天我们就针对青年的基本法来做一些更细致的讨论主要就是说在这个草案上面我发现三个问题所以我今天会从这三个面向来跟次长讨论第一个就是青年的定义问题第二个是专责机关第三个就是经费的部分"},{"start":9150.034,"end":9167.135,"text":"首先在青年的定义问题上面我想其实现在世界各国对于青年的定义上面大概就是19到34岁但是我们今年在这个青年政策白皮书里面我们去邀请的对象是15到40岁"},{"start":9169.418,"end":9185.948,"text":"所以我想要了解因為如果我們從35歲以下來看以台灣來說我們大概是21%的人口規模所以我們今年在這個收集意見的時候卻框到40歲所以我想要了解就是說到底未來我們在講青年基本法我們的上限是要框到40歲還是35歲想要請教次長的意見"},{"start":9189.055,"end":9206.303,"text":"報告委員 目前我們的草案是18歲到35歲18歲到35歲 好了解那我想問一下就是說再來第二個部分就是專責機關的部分就是說雖然說我們現在其實是有這個親資會但是它其實並沒有一個相關的法源"},{"start":9207.263,"end":9229.873,"text":"那目前青年署是在教育部的職長以下嘛可是以三級機關來說他的這些職責啦還有業務啦以及青年問題涉及非常非常的廣嘛就業啦還有這個那個求學啊還有居住的問題其實都在這個層面所以顯然這個是不是現在這個清罰署"},{"start":9232.834,"end":9253.493,"text":"很難去解決對應到這些經濟安全心理健康跟社會正義的問題所以想要了解就是說是否有機會來去爭取提到二級機關呢市長您的想法是跟委員報告目前的規劃就是整個專責單位就是教育部對在教育部然後但是我們就是剛講"},{"start":9254.153,"end":9268.701,"text":"大家最在乎的如果以這個最在乎的問題經濟安全嘛這也是不屬於在經濟部的心理健康社會正義這都不屬於在教育部的那一個清法署三級機關要如何的去協調各個部會我想這還是一個非常貞節的一個問題"},{"start":9269.241,"end":9291.642,"text":"那跟委員報告 因為這個很多委員的條文裡面都有提到建議說行政院應該定期來召開青年事務的這個協調匯報那所以我們大概就是跟跨部會有關的事情就會在行政院的那個跨部會的匯報裡面來處理 來追蹤所以變成是說還是維持在清發署但是會有行政院主責的一個匯報來去協調各部會嗎"},{"start":9297.152,"end":9313.323,"text":"應該還是教育部然後跟其他部會有關的事情我們就會透過這個匯報來進行那現在不曉得說次長你們現在是不是有規劃說大概多久會舉辦一個這樣類似的匯報呢現在是有這樣相關的規劃嗎"},{"start":9317.113,"end":9330.18,"text":"但目前的規劃大概是兩三個月兩三個月再辦一次一季會辦一次就對了好了解那在接下來還是會牽涉到就是經費編列的問題就是說教育部的預算大概佔全體的預算是10到11%"},{"start":9331.821,"end":9354.086,"text":"那這個在114年的預算裡面有0.53是來自於這個清發數那其中還是因為有這個圓夢基金所以我們現在投注在青年發展的預算其實是只有1%不到當然我知道其他部會也有相關的資源像是我們的勞動部就有投入30億在青年就業所以"},{"start":9355.219,"end":9368.15,"text":"我想請問未來這個根據基本法我們是不是要訂定根據各個相關的業務來幫忙清法署爭取預算或者是要求其他二級機關來增加青年發展的預算呢"},{"start":9369.642,"end":9396.978,"text":"我想這個關於這個因為當基本法訂了以後裡面有些哪些事情各個單位各個部會他應該要來負責要怎麼樣照顧青年的一旦訂到法律裡面他有這個法律的位階大家就一定要做我想基本法他目的就是要能夠確保說這些預算是一定會被花的那至於剛才提到說因為有很多的預算其實隱藏在很多像比如舉個例子我們拉近這個公私立大學的這個學雜費的這個差距"},{"start":9399.439,"end":9412.654,"text":"這個我們花了200億這其實都是花在青年的身上所以未來怎麼樣有一個更具體的把這些我們花在青年身上的這些經費能夠有一個更完整的一個數字化這個是一個比較能夠清楚的看到說我們國家的"},{"start":9414.156,"end":9437.057,"text":"我想我希望就是說在未來行政院相關的版本我們可以看到相關的條文去清楚的列上各個部會各個機關需要如何的來支持這些相關的經費跟預算都應該要更具體我們才能夠知道到底有多少錢可以真正的來去支持我們青年的發展所以我希望這是次長未來在這個院版上面要來協助溝通跟努力"},{"start":9437.597,"end":9463.286,"text":"好謝謝那再來第二個問題其實是從青年教育就業的儲蓄賬戶方案那簡單來說我們是從106年開始推動每年有五千個名額那薪資外會補助一萬元至存款賬戶最多等於是參加這個方案的年輕人高中畢業生他最多三年可以多存36萬聽起來利益非常非常良好但是呢我們也可以看到說"},{"start":9465.727,"end":9484.393,"text":"這個計劃在歷次其實一直不停的在修正然後也因為第一年106年的時候只有774人媒合所以107年的預算就因此而做到部分的減劣那我想要從這樣表最主要是想要強調就是說我們原本是預估5000人可是後來我們就一直在減少變成是800人"},{"start":9486.053,"end":9502.863,"text":"不確定說這是不是我們對這個計畫的信心不足不確定因為我自己也去調了這些相關的數字就發現說其實申請的人數是年年這是一個滾動三年的從106年開始因為它是一個最多可以到三年的計畫所以是用Rolling三年的方式去累計"},{"start":9504.464,"end":9524.897,"text":"那從108年到111年我可以看到申請人數跟實際人數其實都是往上增加的喔可是我退出的人數的比例也是往上增加的所以我想要請次長了解一下可以說明一下嗎你們有沒有去做相關的研究跟了解因為我知道我們有青年職涯輔導團嘛為什麼退出的人數持續的在增加呢疫情"},{"start":9530.095,"end":9554.72,"text":"跟委員報告,這個退出在111年那個退出比較多的時候其實是跟疫情這邊是有關係的那我想也跟委員報告說七年廚藝這個計畫我們其實非常非常重視事實上像我自己我本來我的大兒子想要去做這個事情那我們現在就想要做因為我們也看到他的一些瓶頸啦他的瓶頸比如說舉個例子他的工作是有受限的"},{"start":9555.14,"end":9572.525,"text":"他是必須要勞動部然後說合可的這些工作在這個破裡面所以我們現在再炒你一個新的版本在115學年度就會上路在這個版本裡面就是青年他可以自己找他的工作那找他工作再來跟我們說所以他工作不會受限那二方面是說"},{"start":9573.625,"end":9593.957,"text":"過去的這個計畫比較是以儲蓄儲蓄幫弱勢的青年存錢這種概念但是我們現在比較想要把他引導到說幫青年找到真正的人生的方向跟熱情所以我們會比較像說你18歲以後所以這個我們會拉更多大學進來讓更多大學我們給他外加的特殊選材的名額所以你有機會從這裡面抱歉這次長好遠"},{"start":9595.498,"end":9610.713,"text":"剛好銜接到我這個問題那我再用一分鐘的時間把這個問題問完就是說到底剛剛有提到他會跟大學銜接嘛可能他之前工作完之後他想要去念大學那現在確定我們大概有多少學校會加入這一個就是接下來他可以入學的這個方案"},{"start":9611.713,"end":9631.997,"text":"因為這個計畫正在我們新版剛差不多所以我們接下來會跟所有的大學只要你願意提供名額給這些學生聽起來就是還不確定嘛可是115年的方案就在今年8、9月就要上路了嘛對不對不不不115是明年明年就要上路了嘛那大概今年什麼時候會有比較明確的計畫內容呢"},{"start":9636.414,"end":9654.982,"text":"我們草案已經差不多了我想這個我們可能會在一年前就是前一年之前跟大家宣布這件事情所以我想大概就是所以這差不多是五六月的時候嘛因為差不多五月就要開始申請讓他們升高三的學生知道有這件事情明年他可以申請那他可以作為他接下來高三這一年之後"},{"start":9655.282,"end":9674.772,"text":"好沒關係因為時間有限我想最後一件事情要拜託次長就是說根據我們現在我們的一些缺點跟我們的一些檢討報告是不是可以提供到我辦公室第二個部分就是這個相關草案要上路的時程是不是也可以提供到我辦公室是那大家多久可以提供給我好沒問題多久謝謝委員兩個禮拜兩個禮拜好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":9679.855,"end":9686.057,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝張雅玲委員次長請回我們接下來請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席 有請葉次長好 有請葉次長你好"},{"start":9704.374,"end":9713.531,"text":"市長好我們小時候都會提到未來的主人翁那這個未來的主人翁呢就是我們所謂的青年"},{"start":9714.417,"end":9738.43,"text":"那青年這一個世代呢對國家有多麼的重要我想這個不是我們在這邊要討論的話題而是說我們真的要來立一部基本法讓我們的青年他們的整個權益能夠有所保障那我想我們昨天的記者會有看到立法院已經有18個版本出來"},{"start":9739.676,"end":9767.323,"text":"那次長您在剛才的詢答中也不斷的提到這個會期會有院版出來那特別加上2023年當時我們的賴慶德總統以總統候選人的身份參加青年論壇他也特別提到未來會積極推動青年基本法那時至今日走到現在呢我們看到行政院人總他的一個書面報告是這麼說的"},{"start":9768.82,"end":9796.476,"text":"他說他不建議這部法要有一個專責機關他認為只要朝向強化既有部會辦理青年事務的方向辦理就可以了好那我在這邊有看到今天好多好多的部會在這個當中我希望等一下我點到的部會能夠在座位上大聲一點回答就是有沒有"},{"start":9797.276,"end":9820.25,"text":"你們的青年政策相關的科目經費編列在你們的部會當中來請教一下外交部有沒有相關經費"},{"start":9835.876,"end":9844.779,"text":"好 謝謝希望其他部會就是比照這樣就好了我只想知道有沒有青年相關政策或科目或經費財政部"},{"start":9853.695,"end":9860.377,"text":"好有嗎謝謝經濟部有抒發部有內政部好有嗎住宅的部分衛福部好謝謝文化部有好勞動部好有金管會好有謝謝財政部"},{"start":9882.616,"end":9884.902,"text":"喔 念過了嗎 那就是內政部喔 都有了齁 好 清發署"},{"start":9892.244,"end":9915.466,"text":"對 我們很多經費全部都是支持好 謝謝好 社長 你有看到了我們的青年政策散落在各個部會都有但是呢 人總他又認為說不應該設一個專責機關可是我們又有這種跨部會的政策那我是直接幫你挑啦我這樣講喔"},{"start":9917.352,"end":9941.612,"text":"一部法要催生主管機關很重要他可以決定一部法能不能很快的催生出來那沒有辦法的時候就是要找一個奶爸奶媽那我認為現在教育部就是奶爸奶媽那現在你很辛苦這個奶爸奶媽要來負責催生這部法但是你總也要在法裡面告訴我們你會希望放在哪裡權責機關"},{"start":9945.307,"end":9962.451,"text":"要幫他找到未來的生父生母要養他的目前我們的長安規劃是教育部目前是教育部那國發會有沒有來來 國發會你們有沒有意願要來當生父生母好"},{"start":9977.315,"end":9991.653,"text":"好 謝謝那我了解所以現在看起來教育部就是要扛起來對不對好 謝謝市長那我之所以這樣子講我也是希望幫忙釐清所以呢我希望兩週內各個部會剛才提到的"},{"start":9993.635,"end":10020.115,"text":"能夠給我一份報告讓我們整合一下我們的青年政策有哪些那我在這邊也要特別就是跟市長提因為我們都提到青年基本法裡面會有一個青年事務會報或青年國事會議會有青年代表我知道賴總統他過去在擔任台南市長的時候他推動一個族群主流化後來他當行政院長也有推"},{"start":10021.604,"end":10044.341,"text":"那我要講的是我們過去只有聽到性別主流化那現在有一個族群主流化現在推青年積分法又要來一個青年主流化也就是在我們的所有政策當中我們要去考慮性別的比例 族群的比例 青年的比例那請問一下這些青年代表我看到我們通常都會想到性別比例會有族群比例嗎"},{"start":10046.506,"end":10074.397,"text":"我想這個代表應該要涵蓋各個應該要涵蓋嘛我現在是提醒您因為您剛剛說教育部自己要來催生所以我特別提醒那為什麼我要在別人提醒您看一下這幅圖這是我們過去我在做課程的時候針對太陽之子排灣族所做的一個他的整個教育的階段他的教育的哲學我相信您應該有興趣所以我稍微念一下"},{"start":10075.197,"end":10087.665,"text":"排灣族自認為是太陽之子從嬰孩蓄日東升一直到他的老年太陽西沉他有一個過程那0到5歲呢我們叫做從夢的年紀要多聽神話故事培養他的創造力5到15歲呢是從腳的年紀也就是要透過做中學讓他熟悉整個社會制度事物那15到40"},{"start":10100.533,"end":10112.477,"text":"我們稱為從守的年紀也就是在這個階段他要學習怎麼樣成家立業他要工作然後到了40到60歲呢叫做從老的階段就是要來指導別人60到80歲呢是從新的一個年紀要來說故事給小朋友聽然後80歲以後呢就是安享天年我現在要講的是請問我們的青年基本法你認為青年是幾歲到幾歲"},{"start":10129.687,"end":10143.51,"text":"我們目前朝你的是18歲到35歲那我們排灣族是認為是15到40歲蠻接近的好那這樣的一個如日中天就是我們講的血氣方剛來我們來看一下次長"},{"start":10145.244,"end":10173.388,"text":"這個是112學年度的資料國小階段 國中 高中 大學的出債學率你可以看到原住民國小 國中 高中都還好國民義務教育可是到了大學他是56%的出債學率跟一般的全國平均是91.6%你覺得差距大不大相當大相差很大那您知不知道可能的原因是什麼"},{"start":10176.823,"end":10177.652,"text":"目前我覺得"},{"start":10179.554,"end":10200.681,"text":"好 我直接跟您說是 我跟您說很多的原住民學生到了大學階段他會因為要去打工家裡沒有辦法支撐他他要打工要嘛他就要去做就學貸款所以這樣的時候他很辛苦可是我要講的就是教育部去年上路的減免私校的學雜費他有一個叫做已獲政府其他相關的學雜費減免不予減免可是您看一下"},{"start":10209.023,"end":10228.523,"text":"這個表格很好 我們看到我們的低收入學生可以3.5萬再加2萬我們的中低收入學生可以3.5萬再加1.5萬可是原住民學生有學雜費減免 沒有辦法享受去年教育部上路的這個美德 沒辦法"},{"start":10230.685,"end":10248.651,"text":"這麼好的一個政策原住民學生沒辦法所以我要請您再看一個表格這個一樣這個是112全年度原住民的國小學生跟全體國民學生你看他的低收入戶我們的一般國民是2.14%中低收入戶是2.56%你看看原住民學生國小階段的低收入戶11.65%跟中低收入戶7.82%你覺得差距大不大"},{"start":10261.462,"end":10285.625,"text":"非常大我跟您說這個還不是最高因為原住民有原保地所以中低收入戶他的資格會被剔除所以如果這個沒有價值的原保地沒有辦法到銀行貸款的原保地你再把這些人數加上來這個比例相當的高所以我最後只想要跟部長說我們政府的美意啊為德不足啊"},{"start":10286.366,"end":10295.995,"text":"跟委員報告我們補助這個原住民的同學公校的原住民學生我們每年減免4萬4到6萬8所以其實這是比3萬5更高很多我希望你到辦公室我再算一次給你聽因為今天時間不夠我只是要提到當我們的初在學歷"},{"start":10305.103,"end":10332.923,"text":"跟我們的一般國民差30%的時候30幾%的時候有30幾%的學生是低於要去中輟輟學要去打工要去離開學校因為經濟壓力負擔沒有辦法認真讀書也讀不下去離開有30幾%的孩子我們要講當這樣的政府的政策下去不換寡換不均急劇加大不會改善這個現象"},{"start":10334.642,"end":10361.07,"text":"所以我希望次長您回去再好好思考那我是希望說我要給一個報告我希望再重新檢討針對能夠獲得其他補助的不得再領這個部分連低收入戶都可以可是為什麼原住民學生不可以我想這個部分呢兩週內再給我報告或到辦公室報告好不好好 謝謝次長 謝謝主席"},{"start":10364.175,"end":10377.061,"text":"好 謝謝吳麗華委員 次長請回好 我們接下來請郭育晴委員質詢好 謝謝主席 有請次長好 有請葉次長"},{"start":10382.704,"end":10396.052,"text":"市長早安我想剛剛一直不斷的有提到就是我們的青年的朋友是介於18歲到35歲那您知道目前這一群族群大概占台灣的人口數大概是幾分之幾嗎20"},{"start":10399.154,"end":10419.731,"text":"21.多%左右差不多是五分之一喔那如果這樣像剛剛我們的吳委員他所說的喔可能要到40歲的話那可能這個族群的人數人口數可能就更多了喔但是剛剛其實各個部會都被點名過一次了我就不點名喔但是我們要提到就是在六都當中喔除了這個台北新北"},{"start":10420.471,"end":10445.84,"text":"桃園跟高雄他們是有所謂的青年局但是還有兩個地方的六都是沒有所謂的青年局處的您知道是哪兩個地方嗎台中跟台南台中跟台南所以為什麼其實我們昨天早上也特別召開了就是我們幾位委員其實從上一個會期一直到現在其實我們也特別注重就是希望這個青年朋友的聲音能夠被聽見他們不要成為在面對這個"},{"start":10449.021,"end":10466.196,"text":"世代比較困難比較多元的當中的這樣子的一個年輕族群被忽略的這樣子的一環它是我們國家非常重要的一個資產好 那我想昨天應該大家也都特別有關注到除了早上的記者會以外下午可能就是我們的復議案了"},{"start":10468.188,"end":10474.37,"text":"為什麼要特別在這邊講呢我想在我們負責推動青年政策的青年發展署在114年度我們的預算有編列到19億但是在昨天的我們整體的總預算複議案是沒有辦法被通過的我想這個部分可能更添加了所謂的財政上的一個壓力第二個就是財政收支劃分法一樣財劃法的部分複議案也同樣的"},{"start":10496.576,"end":10521.533,"text":"我們被這個在野黨給封殺了那我想這個部分在中央政府也因此需要被釋出3753億給地方政府那也使得我們的中央在這個部分可以運用的資源已經被大大的減縮了那我想現在我所知道的是115年度的青年相關的一個預算現在目前是正在籌編"},{"start":10523.103,"end":10531.075,"text":"那以昨天這兩個這樣子的復議案我們是完全沒有辦法通過的部分的話這個將來重大的影響會是什麼"},{"start":10532.591,"end":10559.313,"text":"我想我們現在還在等主總給我們更明確的數字就是說因為目前114包括之前講到那個統三還有這個636億這個636億要怎麼分配到各個部會我們現在在等我們不知道然後那因為114還沒確定之前那現在115就也沒有辦法確定但是如果以這個目前看到的這個如果是主總昨天提到的28%或37%我想這都會對我們造成相當大的影響"},{"start":10560.12,"end":10588.462,"text":"好 所以從剛剛早上其實我有聽到幾位這個國民黨的委員就是他們有特別提到所謂的發展基金的部分那我覺得是相當的諷刺那因為根據這個國民黨他們所推動的財政紀律法他們最引以為傲的財政紀律法這第八條的第一項這個中央政府非營業特種基金必須要按照預算法當中的第四條要宰明這個資金的來源是什麼"},{"start":10589.443,"end":10612.324,"text":"我們才能夠設立這個基金嘛是那前面我剛剛講的其實包含這個才昨天發生的事情我不知道他們是選擇忘記還是選擇失憶還是故意不看昨天其實我們這兩個婦醫案都已經被他們封殺了所以這個他們還在講基金的部分我個人就覺得非常的這個完全不知道他們在想什麼好那"},{"start":10615.146,"end":10633.479,"text":"我們回歸正題還是聚焦在我們全國的青年他們的福利身上我想113年的全國青資交流會它是由所謂的全國上下大概有上百位的青年的委員還有各地14個青年事務的專責單位的一個交流"},{"start":10635.62,"end":10664.284,"text":"那麼他們在整個所有的交流會當中其實也討論到了這個四大的一個重點那麼也是我們必須要努力的一個目標包含第一個就是教育跟資源的一個落差我們要怎麼樣能夠縮小這些城鄉的差距強化國際的一個競爭力那我想這個相關的部會可能也包含教育部、國發會、國科會文化部跟經濟部在這個部分可能我們還要再來做更多的一些整合"},{"start":10665.224,"end":10685.57,"text":"市長對於第一項城鄉差距的縮小跟國際的競爭力您有沒有什麼見解城鄉差距這是我們一直教育部非常重視的所以這些年我們一直投入非常多資源比如說舉個例子像過去大家會擔心說偏鄉的缺老師的問題所以我們就投入很大的資金在發展數位學習平台"},{"start":10686.69,"end":10701.609,"text":"那包括我們去年我們推出了這個AI的這個人工智慧家教就是他在不同的國運數字這個學科可以幫助學生可以讓他學會這些東西所以其實我們投入非常多的資源在想要擬平這個成像的差距"},{"start":10702.57,"end":10721.905,"text":"因為時間的問題我等一下就快速的把這四項另外第二個其實他們不是只有在學校面臨到一些困難可能真的出了社會之後不管是職場或者是就業上的壓力包含所謂的高房價以及托育的政策的部分其實也影響到我們的青年的發展另外在第三點在職場的適應跟勞動的環境上其實就像剛剛成儒次長所說的"},{"start":10727.489,"end":10736.134,"text":"AI的時代的工作的模組或者是工具或者是Business或者是它的這個Model已經開始轉變了那它在轉變的時候其實讓職場的適應讓這些青年朋友他們在就職場的時候其實也可能會面臨到一些轉弦的相關的問題"},{"start":10744.898,"end":10768.366,"text":"那第四個我們當然希望就是這些青年能夠更多參與公共政策的影響力能夠讓更多的青年他們發聲的管道能夠被聽見那我想這個可能要靠很多的不同的一些部會來共同的努力那其實我們最期待的就是青年基本法能夠在這個會期當中是我們首要真的希望能夠在我們"},{"start":10770.727,"end":10793.577,"text":"這個院會當中可以三讀通過的一個基本法草案也讓我們的這個青年的朋友的聲音可以被聽見那當然以上呢是我們歸納出在這個113年全國青資交流會當中的一些議題然後跟一些方向那我想這個也就是給次長給教育部跟各個不同的部會來做一個參考好 以上 謝謝謝謝主席好 謝謝 謝謝郭雨琴委員謝謝次長"},{"start":10800.592,"end":10825.828,"text":"好 我們接下來請葉元之委員主席好 麻煩請找那個政務次長 教育部政務次長好 我們請葉次長"},{"start":10834.487,"end":10846.134,"text":"今天大家在討論青年包含基本法我針對兩個問題跟你請教一下第一個是青年定義因為我自己也有提一個版本青年定義是18歲到45歲為什麼是從18歲開始起算是因為12到18歲有兒童及少年福利權益保護法"},{"start":10855.58,"end":10882.419,"text":"那剛好銜接18歲以上那為什麼要到45歲呢因為我們其他的法律包括像是農發條例施行細則他那邊就直接指青年是指18歲以上45歲以下然後我們的青創代管的申請資格也是到45歲以下所以參考其他的法律啦那我的我們的版本是定18到45歲我不曉得說因為現在沒有教育部的版本嘛"},{"start":10882.859,"end":10910.998,"text":"教育部現在規劃你們青年定義是幾歲然後原因是什麼我們目前定義是18到35歲為什麼是到35歲因為我們看其他國家的一些像韓國19歲到34歲大概都是在這個Range那我們也希望說如果說這個年紀拉得太大的話又會稀釋掉這些資源所以我們大概就是採在國內外大家收集起來大概就是18到35歲是我們現在定的朝年的一個範圍"},{"start":10913.139,"end":10919.127,"text":"青創的貸款還有農發條例他們對於青年定義也包括35歲到45歲嘛所以他們也認為說應該要把資源用在35歲到45歲跟委員報告我想這個有一些我想這個不同的領域啦"},{"start":10929.919,"end":10958.228,"text":"因為現在創業蠻多人確實也是到40歲才開始創業所以在一些不同的業務上面它有一些這樣的彈性我們是覺得這是很OK的未來我們在青年基本法訂了以後我們也會允許我也希望說讓這部位原本它這些業務有在照顧的年齡段不會因為青年基本法訂在35歲它像這個地方它就卡到35歲不會我們就讓它原來你的計畫已經在照顧的年段不會受到青年基本法的這個定義的影響第二個是"},{"start":10958.968,"end":10984.274,"text":"因為我們的法案裡面草案裡面也有定義一個青年的一個主責機關那因為教育部現在有青年發展署嘛所以我想要問次長就是如果這個法通過之後青年發展署它的位階會不會提高或者是說會不會擴充那我這邊提一個比較具體的問題因為我們現在很多地方政府都有設立青年局其實這個都利益良善啦大家都是為了要"},{"start":10985.294,"end":11013.373,"text":"發展青年嘛希望青年可以得到更好的照顧但是它會衍生出一個問題因為青年局成立之後會從其他的局把業務撥過來但有的業務其實在原本的局會比較發展會比較好舉個例子來講像比如說縣市政府的青年局可能會負責青創青年創業但青年創業以前是在經發局那經發局負責青創有一個好處因為他們有很多廠商資源所以可以推廣大手拉小手可是如果把青創的業務移到了"},{"start":11014.113,"end":11039.575,"text":"青年局這個大手拉小手的就沒有辦法在同一個局裡面把它整合起來就變成青年局要跟經發局協調那局跟局之間協調絕對不會比同一個局裡面業務整合來的有效率所以如果我們推動這個青年發展基本法的話應該要有一個更上位的單位組織去整合協調把青年工作做好那現在教育部未來你們提的版本"},{"start":11041.876,"end":11055.457,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們朝你的版本就是那個專責機關就會未接拉提高到教育部由教育部到專責機關但教育部如果要跟經濟部或者是要跟勞動部協調教育部有辦法"},{"start":11056.458,"end":11074.49,"text":"只會動其他的單位嗎就像委員剛才提到接下來會有很多跨部會的橫向協調那這部分我們在基本法院會在訂說由行政院召開跨部會的青年事務協調匯報那這大概是每個大概每三個月開一次那行政院的專責匯報的這個召集人是誰你們現在設定的召集人是誰"},{"start":11078.391,"end":11089.698,"text":"召集的應該是院長就是由院長來召集青眼的業務的會報然後把各單位叫來然後業務單位是教育部那你認為這樣子推動的話會不會遇到我剛剛所講的問題"},{"start":11093.881,"end":11119.581,"text":"其實回過頭來跟委員報告就像委員提到有些事情比如像創業或這些事情其實他應該還是在經濟部來處理會比較好教育部其實或是說不管是任何專責把他拿過來這個業務其實都沒有辦法做得比經濟部還要好所以我們想現在這樣的模式可能是比較能夠符合照顧到青年在各個面向的需求所以我們就提醒一下就是這個法院有通過之後有專責機關他應該要能夠協調不要讓說好像"},{"start":11123.104,"end":11148.807,"text":"有一些業務因為移撥或什麼反而造成推動比原來更不利然後再來針對一些我關心的一些教育問題來跟次長請教一下因為我知道次長是來自於高教是在前一陣子教授提出一個現象他提出一個現象他發現學生的微積分的程度普遍下滑然後他還提到說清大"},{"start":11149.778,"end":11158.511,"text":"有很多學生停修演算法這比例非常高 到三成那演算法就是跟AI相關這是等於是發展AI的基礎的學科"},{"start":11159.4,"end":11181.414,"text":"那為什麼教授發現學生的專業程度逐漸下滑是因為108課綱的關係各位報告我先把這個教授的講完那因為108課綱是高中的時候因為有一些必修課它減少了嘛所以造成基礎學科休息的時數下滑到大學之後就出現這個狀況那不知道次長你有掌握嗎"},{"start":11181.914,"end":11206.453,"text":"跟委員報告這個資訊是我認為是不對的因為同樣的一個演算法的課在台大資訊系這個學期停修的比例反而比較低所以這是單一這個科系的課程的問題但是另外一個就是台大在今年停修的它讓學生可以很晚很晚停修這是台大最近才開放的所以這個規定改變之後的停修的比例這跟去年比跟往年比"},{"start":11208.153,"end":11225.241,"text":"其實除了這個教授有這個主張之外其實我聽過非常多其他學校的我其實聽過很多大學教授都反映一樣的狀況所以以前我在跟一些大學老師在談說少子化問題的時候他們推說他們現在推一個東西叫接觸學生"},{"start":11226.321,"end":11243.824,"text":"結果學生是說怕學生因為跟不上所以導致於可能學習的意願低落 離開學校所以他們有時候還推一些可能補救教學就是加強學生的一些基礎的學科的能力這個其實不是說只有這個台大教授講我只是把這個現象跟部長講"},{"start":11244.665,"end":11260.157,"text":"那跟次長講那絕大多數的老師反應都是指向108課綱說108課綱因為必修學科減少所以產生這個狀況那次長你也是來自於高教也許你的意見是不是但是我這邊反應的是很多"},{"start":11260.737,"end":11279.71,"text":"很多老師的意見我跟委員報告這其實有幾個面向第一個我們現在少子化我們現在新生兒只有30年前的三分之一你從三分之一裡面能不能選到前1%跟以前有三倍人數選前1%那當然能力程度會有差別沒有啦這個跟108科有關第二個我在去年跟伯克萊大學的校長"},{"start":11280.61,"end":11309.77,"text":"我們面對面見面在談的時候伯克萊大學也有同樣的狀況UC San Diego也有同樣的狀況美國的這些一流帶都有同樣的狀況他們認為這個有幾個原因有世代的差異還有COVID-19疫情市長因為我還有其他的問題要問我們是提醒你現在學校有這種聲音那也許你有你的看法但是很多學校的看法不是這樣那如果你覺得他們看法不對的話那也可以去溝通一下然後再來"},{"start":11310.75,"end":11326.062,"text":"問一個之前我有關心過的議題就是因為代理教師的職前年資在去年的時候已經當法官已經說教育部的現行的做法違憲那我不知道現在教育部什麼時候要訂定統一的辦法出來我請國教署說明好"},{"start":11327.179,"end":11340.853,"text":"跟委員報告我們有找縣市政府討論也取得共識那目前在修代理代課教師篇的辦法那應該會從今年8月1號今年8月1號開始所有的職階年資都會修辦法那什麼時候開始續新職階年資開始續新"},{"start":11344.3,"end":11367.814,"text":"細項的部分可能我們會後再給委員沒有沒有現在就可以講嘛現在直播大家都在看嘛不好意思因為委員我們督導的副署長沒有來所以我不是督導所以你的意思是說八月份的時候辦法會修出來但其實大家現在關心的不是辦法什麼時候修出來大家關心的是說那到底什麼時候開始之前年資可以納入續薪因為桃園好像已經事先實施了嘛"},{"start":11368.194,"end":11388.11,"text":"就基本上在沒有修辦法之前如果縣市政府要做也是可以我知道 當然縣市政府要做可以我現在是說因為教育部的態度跟統一的做法全國一致性的部分我們就是修辦法修辦法過 辦法發布過後全國各縣市就必須依照辦法就不能再不敘心這件事情最後再問個問題"},{"start":11389.651,"end":11412.897,"text":"因為最近大家都在討論還假愚民嘛那有一個藍綠白立委都有共識的節日就是教師節然後在幾個禮拜前有一次教團來這邊辦記者會那時候藍綠白的立委都有參加那大家都很支持教師節放假不知道說教育部的立場是怎樣?這個我請人事處來說明一下你們現在立場是怎樣?"},{"start":11417.756,"end":11433.143,"text":"因為這個部分實際上主政是內政部教育部的立場是尊重我知道主政內政部現在是問教師姐的立場因為其實在去年的上個會期那時候還沒有換卓院長的時候部長是潘文忠"},{"start":11433.863,"end":11461.104,"text":"那潘元東那時候有透露啦我那時候是問的是勞動節因為主要是要幫一些老師他們是保勞保但是不是適用勞基法就是說他們勞動節沒放假那當時那個部長是講說其實人事行政總署有問各單位的意見那教育部其實是支持像類類的老師他在勞動節可以放假所以雖然主責可能是內政部或者是人事行政總署這個都OK我現在問的是教育部的立場支不支持教師節放假"},{"start":11461.752,"end":11478.16,"text":"教育部目前實際上對於勞動節跟教師節的部分我們都是屬於支持的立場那這個部分可是要看那個內政部所以到時候如果行政院有問各單位意見的時候教育部會反映說支持這兩個節是放假的好 謝謝好 謝謝葉元之委員次長請回"},{"start":11489.636,"end":11491.5,"text":"好 我們接下來請羅廷偉委員謝謝趙偉 有請次長好 有請葉次長"},{"start":11506.127,"end":11522.183,"text":"市長首先在討論到今年基本法的時候我想先討論剛剛的代理教師的職前敘心有幾個問題想請問一下因為剛剛我有聽到其他的委員在關心那我們都知道剛剛有提到8月1號開始要修辦法對吧"},{"start":11523.716,"end":11546.861,"text":"是 我想這個不是我主管的我請國教署說明好 國教署這個部分剛剛有清楚的說明8月1號要開始修辦法那依辦法到時候修訂以後各縣市就會依辦法去執行對吧更為報告我們辦法目前正在簽應該是要預告對 那預告過後發布之後當然就是會來執行好 那基本上是勢在必行對不對"},{"start":11548.783,"end":11563.916,"text":"對不對這件事情要做是勢在必行吧所以現在基本上只是還沒修辦法一個縣市開始一個縣市的進度有的先發了有的沒發嘛比如說像桃園已經有執行了"},{"start":11564.597,"end":11582.908,"text":"那台中我自己的台中沒有執行那這個部分我是希望國教署是不是有一個態度先幫我們發個公文然後告訴各縣市是不是可以先有這個機會先幫忙加速一下那當然辦法後面要修但是鼓勵他們能夠先行去處理您覺得呢"},{"start":11584.64,"end":11611.048,"text":"我們之前人事單位是不是有發過這個部分我不敢確定但是就是說為了要修辦法署裡面其實有召開各縣市的公事會議才會進到辦法去做調整那剛有提及說辦法沒修之前其實各縣市如果要處理本來就是沒有問題的那現在是依照憲法法庭那邊的決議所以我們至少您先發個公文告訴他們說如果還沒修之前你們要自己處理也是可以的"},{"start":11611.288,"end":11635.377,"text":"就當作是一個善意的提醒我們後續再去追督促台中市政府這個部分您可以幫忙嗎好那我來瞭解一下我們人事單位的處理基礎好這個部分拜託我們大家都非常關心那次長我想樂見青年基本法的加速完成那也希望逐條討論的時候能夠確保青年基本法的一個能夠回應真正青年的一個需求但是依你所見你覺得台灣青年政策現在遇到什麼樣的問題您覺得呢"},{"start":11638.86,"end":11658.775,"text":"我想就是說這個怎麼樣把事責可以更理清楚哪些業務哪些單位來負責然後而且就是說哪些單位每個單位他有什麼義務要做到什麼的事情我想要怎麼樣把它理得更清楚我想這就是讓他有所依循這也是我們為什麼要提起的問題您個人有去借鏡其他國家的青年基本法嗎"},{"start":11659.375,"end":11686.98,"text":"我想我們在定這個我們的草案的時候我們其實是收集了國內外 國外的不同國家的這個很多他們的一些法案來做參考我想現在權益的一個制度化最重要的目的是讓它政策在制定的過程不要有一個高強持續的存在我想青年基本法的一個立法應該是朝野都有共識而且鄰近的國家包括南韓在2020年都有完成立法那現在院版卡住送不出來的原因是什麼"},{"start":11688.064,"end":11715.709,"text":"沒有卡住 收不出來的原因目前也跟委員報告我們現在教育部布板的查案已經擬定完成了因為裡面牽涉到很多不同的部會還有地方政府所以我們現在接下來會現在正在跟各個部會在協調那請問青年署如果教育部這個到一個月內會完成協調之後報行政院 預告教育部青年署是三級機關預算有限有沒有考慮將青年署升格為青年部"},{"start":11716.149,"end":11730.315,"text":"目前的規劃是這個整個專責單位由教育部來擔任專責單位那你覺得對於青年世代現在對經濟就業居住等相關議題的困境上教育部的一個態度跟具體的做法有沒有什麼可以幫忙協助的"},{"start":11730.734,"end":11759.883,"text":"目前因為剛才就像委員提到這些包括這個就業創業居住這些很多議題是其實是跨部會的所以會由教育部來做主責單位然後我們現在在草案裡面也因為很多委員都有提到說應該有跨部會的這個行政院的層級來召開這個青年的這個事務協調匯報我們大概就是每三個月會開一次跨部會青年由院長擔任召集人所以很多這個其他跨部會需要合作的這些事情就會由在匯報這個地方"},{"start":11760.523,"end":11775.84,"text":"我們現在看到青年政策青年教育這個部分有關於非正規教育跟執訓有沒有規劃這個是本來就在這個我們的我說未來如果在你們的院版有沒有再更具體的把它法制化的時候去規劃這個部分的一個制定"},{"start":11778.448,"end":11800.397,"text":"會不會有不一啊 各縣市執行不一啊你說委員是指實驗教育這一塊非正規的教育跟執訓的部分把它納入到院版裡面可能會討論到制度化然後讓各縣市有辦法依循非正規的教育跟執訓好不好這個部分我想青年這個部分也是非常重要的一環"},{"start":11801.653,"end":11819.745,"text":"我們有這個關於青年的培力啦我想這部分可以涵蓋剛才委員在提到的面相當然青年培力很廣啦但是執訓嘛跟非正規的教育我想這個部分也要去納入我想在這個部分還有一個青年公共事務的參與啦各縣市有的用之前有人青年議會嘛有人是青年事務委員會嘛"},{"start":11820.706,"end":11846.841,"text":"這部分是不是也可以納入到這個青年基本法裡面去做一個制定我覺得這個可以探討這個部分也麻煩你那另外有時事的一些題目我想跟你請教一下關於這個校園最近有一個比較轟轟烈烈的在討論所謂的去講話那根據教育部統計目前教育部部署的機構高中以上的學校有81校105項這個威權的象徵什麼是威權的象徵你可不可以舉例一下"},{"start":11849.948,"end":11870.464,"text":"呃 可能是一些銅像啊 或是一些這些類似這樣的東西沒關係 我們都是可以探討討論的齁 對沒關係那次長 中原大學說這個是奉這個貴單位的指示啊校園內的中正樓改名自信樓那目前他們是說有這個校友在做反對啦齁那次長 這個中原大學有權利說不改嗎"},{"start":11871.514,"end":11895.738,"text":"跟委員報告第一個教育部不是教育部要求他改名字的因為這是轉型正義條例裡面是法規的要求然後這個法規的主管單位是內政部那因為我們目前台灣的公私立學校裡面大概有81所被列管所以今年的1月的時候教育部是有開一個座談會邀請這些學校說那了解他們現在被列管的現況是怎麼樣那他們有什麼需要幫忙的地方"},{"start":11896.318,"end":11912.257,"text":"還有一些學校之間有些學校他有處理過他的經驗怎麼分享給大家因為我們非常要求一件事情不管你要改名或要做什麼事情這個需要通過民主的程序要校內要有共識所以第一個教育部不會不是教育部要求要改名字這是法規要求"},{"start":11912.697,"end":11940.005,"text":"我這邊基本的立場啦你聽聽看就是充分的溝通能夠讓這個部分政策在落實的過程中不要有太多的紛爭這可以接受吧我想轉型正義固然重要那也有相關的法令依據但是也不要太違背這個大學自治的原則我想這個部分拿捏得宜啦我還是要求的很簡單充分的溝通不要在這個轉型的正義的過程過度的撕裂傷害"},{"start":11940.365,"end":11955.93,"text":"我們沒有施壓學校我們也是希望學校透過民主的程序不管要改民主或要怎麼做今天我能夠了解到你的態度我覺得我們都是很正向的好不好不要有特別的去做一個讓這個大學自治的一個機會都沒有充分的溝通我覺得是很重要的"},{"start":11956.63,"end":11976.866,"text":"那再來就是說第二台灣網站平台制服地圖被發現存有大量被盜取的學生制服的一個照片那盜用未成年的照片的上傳還標示被害者可能出沒的地域地區性地區那這個平台的作者還拿這些來發表學術論文請問這有沒有學術倫理的一個問題"},{"start":11978.201,"end":11997.82,"text":"我們要去了解說這個他當初做這些研究的時候因為通常這些研究他會需要符合研究倫理跟學術倫理那這個我們會發函這個請他的這個學校來說明說他們現在當初這個個案他的研究到底有沒有通過這個研究倫理的一些我想這個議題幫我們關心一下"},{"start":11999.221,"end":12022.849,"text":"那我們都希望說學術倫理這個部分能夠顧及而且又還有這個隱私權的一個問題也要幫忙去協助處理我想教育部這無旁貸那既然這件事情有被關注到我希望能夠大家一起來加油那最後再跟市長討論一下這個青年自殺的一個問題我想15歲到24歲年輕族群的一個自殺率從2014年逐年的提升這個也是有趨勢的"},{"start":12023.929,"end":12048.559,"text":"這部分到2021年是到歷史新高每10萬人口有9.6人自殺相較10年前5.4人相當於1.8倍在該年齡的一個區段中十大死因自殺死亡就佔了21.7僅次於意外死亡的42.1再以年齡細分來看18到24歲自殺比率是最高從2014年到"},{"start":12050.821,"end":12065.541,"text":"149人到2019年已經到了200人2021年來到224人學校端怎麼去協助那這個社政端要怎麼去連結你有沒有什麼想法我想剛剛委員提到那個年段比較多剛好是在大學啦對 18到24"},{"start":12067.003,"end":12085.753,"text":"其實我們自己在看報告,我自己我們去年我們之前就有在瞭解這個問題其中一個面向是很多的學生在他進了大學之後,他因為還是用18歲以前的價值觀在念大學那這個很多適應上的問題,還有找不到接下來人生努力的目標,很多這些問題"},{"start":12086.593,"end":12101.241,"text":"那所以我們在教育部我們現在做的事情就是說我們在教學實驗研究計畫這個計畫裡面多了一個領域就是談well-being就是怎麼樣我們設計課程讓學生在大一大二他可以找到自己人生的方向方向動力對"},{"start":12102.342,"end":12131.129,"text":"這變成是我們現在投入相當多的資源讓全台灣的大學的老師在這個方向有想要貢獻心力的大家來設計這樣的課程我想衛福部有他們的一些資源來相應那社政端也有那我想這個部分也希望教育部在直接面對第一線孩子的時候能夠接住他們能夠幫他們找到未來的一些相關的志向然後解除心理的迷茫這部分18到24真的很值得我們去關注他們的自殺率我們一起加油好嗎我們一起持續努力謝謝"},{"start":12133.442,"end":12140.986,"text":"好 謝謝羅廷偉委員好 次長請回我們接下來請林德福委員時間4分鐘主席還有我們教育部是不是請葉次長好 請葉次長還有勞動發展部的主秘 施主秘好 我們請主秘"},{"start":12162.847,"end":12183.889,"text":"市長我請教因為本席在2017年10月還有2020年的3月啊2024年的3月都多次的提出青年政策專法的一個版本那感謝支持青年政策專法的草案連署的那麼多委員那今天看到"},{"start":12184.99,"end":12212.397,"text":"這麼多委員的版本希望我認為說不要分朝野大家一起為青年的未來來建構更好的願景落實推動相關青年的政策因為青年不僅代表國家的未來更反映整個國家現在各界不斷呼籲應重視青年來強調投資青年就是投資整個國家的未來"},{"start":12213.697,"end":12235.403,"text":"相較於兒童長者身心障礙皆有專法來明定重要的施政方向及內容唯獨只有缺少青年的政策專法若沒有妥善考慮年輕人的未來將導致整個國家陷入惡性的循環"},{"start":12237.628,"end":12260.062,"text":"所以說本席是希望說行政部門要盡快提出對岸來對岸的版本那請問這個行政院版的青年政策專法是我預計由教育部主責來提出葉次長你的看法呢跟委員報告對目前的這個專責當然是在我們的查案裡面是教育部沒錯"},{"start":12260.302,"end":12274.937,"text":"那你認為需要多少時間才能提出來呢跟委員報告我們目前那個布版的草案已經擬定完成目前因為裡面有牽扯到很多各部會的業務還有地方政府所以我們現在正在進行跟各部會還有地方政府的協調預計在一個月內完成"},{"start":12276.459,"end":12294.052,"text":"一個月一個月內完成協調之後然後就會報行政院然後進行預告那我們預計這個院版是在這個會期之內這個會期那我也請這個召委那個召委主席啊你有聽到"},{"start":12298.425,"end":12314.271,"text":"我請因為他依據這個會期一定會提出來教育部所以說我請召委在法案提出來的時候我們來逐條討論這個是不是這個法案就是等行政院他"},{"start":12315.952,"end":12335.629,"text":"這個院板來 然後併進去 然後你就來排好不好好 謝謝那個次長我再請教因為最近喔 台大畢業生的聯誼會近日舉辦2025年喔 畢業歌投票活動啊票選第一名的創作歌曲叫做 上台大變"},{"start":12337.993,"end":12363.847,"text":"然後請問現場官員你們有沒有聽過這首歌是不是手舉一下都沒有喔只有次長有聽過譬如不想被問每個月薪水找不到工作上台大便然後直接點出畢業生對未來的不安"},{"start":12365.078,"end":12385.613,"text":"市長以及就業博覽會當我說台大社會怎麼廠商校園就不見了那疑似暗示文組科系畢業生在求職市場上的困境市長你應該清楚吧這個"},{"start":12392.145,"end":12415.338,"text":"誰說上台大就會很有錢因為文組只能拿兩萬六那老闆拚命剝削勞工畢業及失業就是我那講述畢業青年就業的無奈那我請問教育部與勞動部的代表對於文組大學畢業生未來的困境"},{"start":12416.338,"end":12431.05,"text":"是否認同創作歌詞反映了現況市長我跟委員報告因為我之前我們在業界創業這十年其實我們在看到業界有非常多的產業其實人文社科領域的學生是非常非常有"},{"start":12431.75,"end":12456.551,"text":"是我們認為是很有機會它是有很多的就業機會但我覺得比較可惜的是在大學裡面像就業博覽會通常都只找科技業財經產業所以像之前我自己還在台大教書的時候我就特別開一個課給人文社科的學生找業界的人讓他們知道說他們有哪些可能的工作機會那這件事情我們接下來未來也會持續在做就怎麼樣幫助大學有更多的課讓"},{"start":12457.472,"end":12479.911,"text":"人文社科學有機會可以看到就業產業的一些現況而不是只透過就業博覽會以為說就業博覽會因為都找科技業跟財經業就以為說好像我們沒有機會另外一個跟委員報告目前跨領域的學習非常非常重要所以我們也開了很多包括台灣人工智慧"},{"start":12480.612,"end":12508.771,"text":"大學聯盟讓社科的學生他可以學會我們有學位學生給他們他們可以學會AI的智慧應用其實在業界非常需要懂人文又懂AI的人現在在我們業界非常需要這樣的人所以我們有好幾個計畫在幫助這些同學們這些領域的學生因為我一直在觀察整個馬路上Uber、Uber E、Hupangda到處都是啦他們都去做服務業其實你那麼高的學歷但是到最後都"},{"start":12509.831,"end":12532.099,"text":"變成做服務業等於是學成以後但是沒有投入他的本行因為媒體報導2023年報導台積電美國廠的人才荒美國亞利桑那州當地社區學院推出半導體採學合作只要完成半導體技術員的快速入門培訓計畫"},{"start":12537.281,"end":12554.056,"text":"文組零經驗年薪逼兩百萬培訓十天就上工喔那台積電日前又宣布擴大對美的投資但也強調不會影響在台投資台灣今年要蓋十一個"},{"start":12555.177,"end":12577.951,"text":"生產線那台積電啟動校園徵才活動2025年預計在台灣招募包含工程師與技術員等約差不多8000名新進的員工那請問勞動部與教育部能夠提供美國同樣的措施給文組畢業生嗎"},{"start":12579.98,"end":12597.367,"text":"可以嗎跟委員報告我們目前比較針對是AI領域幫他們賦能比較不是半導體領域因為這個也讓台灣的文組畢業生也能夠時日就上工其實我認為像這部分我們應該好好的去探討"},{"start":12599.43,"end":12619.515,"text":"不然的話很多學生講實在話畢業就失業那你說一個大學畢業生賺2萬6我們現在的失業率是相對是其他國家是蠻低的所以倒不是畢業就失業可能畢業沒有找到他很滿意的工作這是有但不是畢業就失業"},{"start":12620.535,"end":12641.022,"text":"但是我是希望說中國大陸的話失業率就真的是非常嚴重學以後學成以後能夠投入他本身的學成我認為這是最棒的那我也希望教育部跟勞動部在這方面你們應該多加強尤其重視青年他們的未來以上謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝林德福委員次長請回我們接下來請范雲委員"},{"start":12654.325,"end":12655.005,"text":"上一屆吳思耀"},{"start":12682.478,"end":12703.917,"text":"立委就率先提出了青年基本法的草案那本屆我也納入青年團體的意見提出我的版本那這邊照片你可以看到就是由我參與召集的我們12位跨委員會的民進黨立委那我們連續兩個會期都把青年基本法列為優先法案"},{"start":12704.577,"end":12724.734,"text":"所以我們真的就是跨委員會非常關心這個法那不是只有就是教育文化委員會那我們也看到現在已經有18個跨黨派的版本那所以剛剛就是次長有講到那也有委員講到韓國有這個青年專法那其實不是只有韓國芬蘭跟盧森堡"},{"start":12726.676,"end":12753.361,"text":"也都有青年專法而且很重要的是聯合國的世界青年行動綱領也都有非常的具體說我們應該要做到什麼那比起我們的性別主流化那這是聯合國在推動的那我們早在20年前就開始做了可是青年主流化因為沒有一個好的法規位階那其實台灣在這部分還是很落後那我首先是想請教"},{"start":12754.665,"end":12777.007,"text":"市長 因為剛剛有聽 我想您已經蠻了解這個重點可不可以簡要跟我們說 您到現在為止 您認為這個法要處理哪些重點您個人認為最重要的我想就是說把這些青年在哪些面向需要國家照顧的包括提到就業 創業 居住等等這些面向"},{"start":12778.936,"end":12795.65,"text":"這該被照顧的面向我們要透過這個基本法把它明定出來然後也讓每一個該照顧的面向是由哪一個機關哪一個部會讓大家寫清楚每一個部會就會按照這個基本法知道說這是我們要照顧的義務我們要按照這個脈絡來做"},{"start":12797.671,"end":12816.448,"text":"謝謝所以次長您覺得是要把青年的哪些面向要照顧像我們的法條都有講到就是說不同的面向健康等等然後哪些部會該做什麼事情要做出來那謝謝您的重點我自己看到的重點有一點不同那也跟那個次長分享"},{"start":12817.389,"end":12837.211,"text":"我覺得第一個青年身份的法制化當然就是剛剛有委員對年齡要怎麼樣的定義那我個人跟教育部看法比較相同就是我的版本是18歲到35歲我覺得斷在這是最合理的那第二個青年的專責單位那我看到你們的報告比較清楚就是希望是教育部嘛"},{"start":12838.011,"end":12856.523,"text":"第三個就是各級政府建立青年的參與機制我覺得各級從中央不管是匯報或是什麼還有參與機制地方也要明定青年代表的法定地位這是剛剛比較少人討論到的那待會我會再談什麼叫做青年代表"},{"start":12856.843,"end":12871.875,"text":"那最後一個當然就是定期要公布青年政策白皮書雖然現在教育部有在努力可是並沒有一個法定的地位跟時間的規範那我覺得這五個重點都要明確才會有青年主流化那如果"},{"start":12873.244,"end":12874.085,"text":"目前我們布板的查案已經擬定完成"},{"start":12889.359,"end":12909.274,"text":"因為裡面牽扯到很多的部會跟地方政府所以我們也要跟他們協調所以我們目前正在跟他們協調我們預計在一個月內會完成跟各部會跟地方政府的協調協調完成之後我們就會報行政院然後預告那我們預計在這個會期應該會有院版可以送這個會期"},{"start":12911.235,"end":12935.595,"text":"因為這個會期還有幾個月嘛還是希望盡快啦因為林一金委員就是他是遵重要等到院本啊不然也可以率先排案等協商的時候再進來我們當然希望你們催促一下行政院越快是越好因為我想這個部分的差異精神都一致那看大家的版本就是說差異比較是在操作跟多麼的細緻的照顧那"},{"start":12938.137,"end":12952.293,"text":"好 那我想就是我們現在如果就X1的部分我有三個詢問是我特別關心的想在這提出來因為這個部分好像今天的報告教育部比較沒有寫到那麼具體第一個就是中央地方專責單位目前的規劃你們會明確的"},{"start":12955.817,"end":12969.426,"text":"指出他的規劃叫什麼嗎中央跟地方中央是教育部但地方的話因為地方自治的關係還有這個我們其實是尊重地方他們自己的編制這地方就是差異在這邊了解"},{"start":12971.408,"end":12984.405,"text":"這個部分我覺得中央跟地方專責的部分的話可以了解那另外就是我想要以青年學生居住問題為例的話就是除了那個專責之外 民定跨部會的協調權限也蠻重要的"},{"start":12987.489,"end":13003.848,"text":"以就是青年目前蠻受困的居住問題來講的話我們看到就是學校收社教育部管租屋困境是內政部管社宅的規劃又是內政部你如果是大學畢業之後其實就是社宅會是他的需求"},{"start":13004.449,"end":13020.738,"text":"那如果是大家也知道教育部雖然不斷的在支持就是宿舍的興建可是還是非常多人沒有辦法住進去所以租屋的議題如果沒有內政部協助的話其實教育部沒有辦法處理到租屋的部分"},{"start":13021.278,"end":13046.914,"text":"那另外就是很多大學生希望能簽戶籍到學校那這個是教育部所以其實如果沒有一個統籌協調的一個單位的話那光是教育部主責的話還是不夠所以這個是我想提醒的另外地方也是一樣雖然現在教育部管不到地方可是這個法應該是教育部主責可是它的法定地位也要讓地方政府重視我覺得難度不高"},{"start":13049.576,"end":13067.327,"text":"22個縣市已經有20個有專責單位21個有諮詢組織所以我覺得應該是跨黨派共識要明文入法全面建立地方也要有專責的單位那參與機制可以跟中央對接那這是我的第一個提醒那第二個提醒"},{"start":13068.43,"end":13080.221,"text":"因為時間的關係喔 那可能請次長就是能簡要回答你們目前關於青年代表參與的機制規劃是如何呢因為那個報告好像沒有寫到這個部分"},{"start":13086.982,"end":13105.628,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個青年參與的機制主要就是原本我們就是有這個這個親資會然後各個部會有各個部會的親資會那這部分其實就是還是持續還是跟原本一樣是吧對那另外就是我們這一邊剛才委員剛才也提到了就是說有很多這些"},{"start":13106.548,"end":13133.694,"text":"事情是跨部會的跨部會的所以我們在我們的草案裡面也有說這個行政院應該要來設置青年事務發展會報由行政院長來召集學者專家青年代表還有這個中央目的事業主管機關首長然後大家一起來開會這個會定期來開會所以這些很多跨部會該委員擔心的議題就由青年代表跟部會首長們跟院長一起來開會討論"},{"start":13135.655,"end":13152.632,"text":"那這個部分因為我之前剛好就是接到陳琴還有處理這個代表的問題我是希望那個教育部這邊參考救治因為新制就是它有一些問題是原本的救治是有一個代表團然後選出代表"},{"start":13153.092,"end":13170.466,"text":"可是新制變成中央政府直接圈選那其實蠻可惜的我上一階段去反映可是並沒有改善那舊制反而是各縣市兒少代表可以票選中央兒少代表那這部分請參考舊制那另外呢我們如果看行政院親資會目前是25人那其實這裡面"},{"start":13174.589,"end":13196.383,"text":"百分之五十以上是三十一歲到三十五歲我個人是認為青年團體也認為說十八歲到二十五歲應該要保障更高目前只有四分之一相比於三十一歲以上的人他們其實發生的能力是更需要保障的所以也希望能夠在就是如何保障十八到二十五歲"},{"start":13196.983,"end":13197.584,"text":"我們再待會兒來研議這樣"},{"start":13209.301,"end":13227.2,"text":"最後因為時間已經到了我想青年日的日期也希望能夠在裡面我個人是寫8月12日因為它是2010年聯合國開始的國際青年日我覺得這樣國際接軌也有青年團體希望更有本土的意味的我想這部分也都希望能夠"},{"start":13227.901,"end":13248.814,"text":"一起討論那最後呢就是再次提醒這個跨部會非常的重要除了教育部之外我想明確的鑑定它的中央地方都有這樣子一個精神然後青年代表機制希望能夠有由下而上多元民主含榮的精神那也希望青年日這個部分如何選定教育部可以審慎考慮"},{"start":13249.855,"end":13258.999,"text":"那以上三點那現在教育部我們希望盡快就是說提出你們的草案版本行政院可以送來立法院那我也會全力推動感謝謝謝好謝謝范雲委員次長請回好我們接下來請吳思亞委員謝謝主席思亞姊姊來了來有請次長好有請次長"},{"start":13278.653,"end":13302.856,"text":"今天特別開心我可以回到熟悉的教文會最有氣質的教文會那更開心的是私邀推動了兩屆今天是第454天青年基本法可以邁向最後一里路與其壯世代更英挺青年我想這是台灣社會很高的共識青年世代就是我們的未來下一頁"},{"start":13304.097,"end":13325.842,"text":"那來細數這454天的努力我非常謝謝青年團體跟思瑤給我很多元的意見我們歷經了無數次的大小的座談不管是公開或是不公開那包括謝謝陳建仁前院長以及這一屆的卓院長都say yes所以今天我們有機會站在這裡進一步的由我們的教育部來作為主責的單位下一頁"},{"start":13333.284,"end":13358.066,"text":"為什麼需要青年基本法因為要落實青年的主流化擴大挺青年要解決組織面的困境解決政策面的困境更要藉由一個永續的而且是高位階的基本法可以建立一個不論誰執政都能夠挺青年的永續政策所以我要強調它是一個基本法它不是作用法"},{"start":13358.726,"end":13375.058,"text":"他是要把基本國策的高度可以定出來而且可以整合政策工具拓展政策的廣度更可以延伸永續發展的政策的時間的長度所以台灣需要青年基本法下頁"},{"start":13375.999,"end":13397.408,"text":"而推動基本法 民進黨最用心 最有經驗民進黨的執政的任內呢我們的九部基本法 這是我們最有經驗也因為有過去奠基的經驗這一次我非常期待青年基本法能夠來copy前面的幾個基本法的經驗框架有了"},{"start":13398.268,"end":13400.491,"text":"這整個運作的機制有了然後我們可以更快的完成立法而且能夠提升整個基本法的品質您剛剛說一個月內行政院會有院版然後呢這個會期希望能夠送到立法院一個月內送到一個月內不版"},{"start":13416.591,"end":13429.982,"text":"部辦送行政院好那這個會期院版送到立法院很好謝謝您的補充說明所以因為有前面的經驗我相信可以更快而且事實上我們已經推動了400多天了好我們加緊來進行下一個"},{"start":13434.145,"end":13460.803,"text":"那我也谢谢因为私谣的版本是推动最早所以现在我跨党派委员提出来的18个版本基本上以私谣的版本为基础大家接受就是说我接受大家给我更多元的意见那同时我也谢谢这个base这个讨论的基础基本上也能够作为原版的一个参照但是我利用我非常短的时间我替大家汇整出了18个版本的进合之处"},{"start":13464.205,"end":13469.776,"text":"第一個 青年的用詞定義 剛剛很多委員講了大概是吳思瑤版的十三案"},{"start":13471.45,"end":13475.853,"text":"18到35岁最多也是行政院的立场那芬兰"},{"start":13507.393,"end":13521.1,"text":"教育部會是主責單位但是基本法是不應當明定主管機關的我提醒教育部過去到現在的基本法多數除了"},{"start":13522.19,"end":13551.296,"text":"去年很倉促很快的通過的新住民基本法是在一片混亂當中而且是因為藍白多數表決通過的事實上你去參酌過去所有基本法的立法體力都沒有明定主管機關因為它是跨部會而且它是要垂直中央跟地方的各級政府所以我要做這個提醒否則很多一開始卡在主管機關就會擺不平這是我的提醒不應當明定主管機關下一個我加快"},{"start":13552.156,"end":13569.349,"text":"但是 應當要有專責單位我要提醒 單位跟機關不一樣吳思瑤等五個版是專責單位那像怡瑾交委他是用專責機關但是我要分享 專責機關每一個機關是法有名定尤其在地方政府"},{"start":13569.929,"end":13597.387,"text":"青年基本法不只要求中央的各部會落實青年主流化也要求各級政府來配合但各個政府的機關數是有法定的天花板的如果用機關來定的話可能會去影響跟限縮各級政府做得到跟做不到的那個困境所以我是提醒大家也希望能夠把專責單位反而更flexible 更可行"},{"start":13598.388,"end":13620.665,"text":"然後呢 吳斯堯的版本是執行監督跟管考機制中央要有一個跨部會的青年事務協調匯報 跨部會的第二個 常設的青年諮詢機制就是現在的青年青資會要不要再拓展 再延伸 再改造 我支持第三個 專責單位 注意喔 不是主管機關專責單位 either way 是教育部"},{"start":13621.425,"end":13644.652,"text":"或是行政院另外有一个任务编组是在行政院设置青年事务办公室都可以这是四要的版本你们可以参照下一个最后两点很重要的是不要再卡在要不要设青年发展基金而延宕了立法因为立法院不要再违宪立法院不得为增加预算支出之倡议跟提案"},{"start":13645.632,"end":13663.279,"text":"我看到國民黨委員的版本都有要求國家設立青年發展基金如果是行政院你們認為可以做你們也要找出指定的裁員這是預算法九十一條憲法七十條成正紀律法第五條第七條的規範所以不要卡在青年發展基金"},{"start":13665.424,"end":13693.818,"text":"我們的版本多數民進黨的版本都是以寬列青年預算逐年增加這樣子的文字不只可行而且它不會違憲它不會違憲就不會卡在未來法案這邊逃我不希望青年基本法最後通過了違憲的版本還要去釋憲好事不要再去釋憲所以我們就在條文上提醒大家要注意最後一個最後一個對於青年政策白皮書的提出"},{"start":13695.103,"end":13701.068,"text":"青年國事會議召開的頻率我也希望跟建議參酌各個基本法的規定責任政治都是四年為期所以這是我彙整出來目前的幾個版本的進合上而且我認為一定要提出的提醒也希望納入你們不版跟願版的參考這樣子的話我說的這些話不只來自於吳斯耀過去400多天的努力跟青年團體跟所有的委員的努力更是因為我們有過去"},{"start":13725.366,"end":13739.74,"text":"好幾部基本法制定的經驗擷取過去的經驗我們不要再走冤枉路也不要甚至不要造成未來立法的一些陷入僵局的狀況所以我的幾點提醒是不是市長都可以帶回去"},{"start":13740.28,"end":13741.241,"text":"謝謝主席給我時間謝謝大家謝謝"},{"start":13757.108,"end":13784.116,"text":"好 謝謝思雅委員思雅請回那我們接下來請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英 楊瓊英委員不在我們請蘇巧慧委員蘇巧慧 蘇巧慧委員不在我們請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在我們請羅明才委員羅明才 羅明才委員不在我們請王美惠委員王美惠委員 王美惠委員不在我們請黃婕委員"},{"start":13796.002,"end":13806.345,"text":"好謝謝主席那謝謝各位辛苦的同仁那當然今天是這個青年基本法的審查所以先請次長好有請次長好次長好其實剛剛很多委員提到這個青年基本法的進度那其實剛剛次長也回應過了這個會期確定會送出是嗎"},{"start":13820.128,"end":13839.26,"text":"這個會期應該願版會出來好謝謝那我就希望說其實大家都在等進度啦因為這個我相信朝野都有共識跨黨派也都有提案18個提案那再加上願版我相信這個會期如果能夠把青年基本法順利的三讀通過"},{"start":13840.22,"end":13865.735,"text":"對於所有台灣的青年來說都是非常正面的消息那當然在這邊就是再次提醒希望這個接下來審查可以順利教育部不要讓年輕人失望那藉這個機會我也想要討論一些青年的權益首先是這個生理假跟身心調適假的部分因為其實我收到蠻多學生來跟我反映說雖然我們教育部底下"},{"start":13866.275,"end":13875.5,"text":"也是鼓勵大家說請生理假不需要附證明這個都有做到了可是其實很多學生在請生理假的時候還是會被刁難的那就我所知現在其實有一些學校甚至沒有放入這個生理假的規定因為當初我問教育部教育部也說這其實是校園自治的範疇"},{"start":13888.126,"end":13906.181,"text":"那甚至有一些學校是把生理假併在這個併假的類型底下也就是說你請生理假必須要扣到併假的額度那甚至是有一些學校就是說你請生理假也都不能有全勤也就是說你只要請過一次生理假你全勤的這個規定獎項就絕對是沒有了"},{"start":13911.505,"end":13926.493,"text":"然後還有一些說你請生理假你補考不好意思你的成績要打折這個是在學校裡面時時在在在發生的甚至就我所知有的是說你請生理假不好意思喔成績七折起跳"},{"start":13927.984,"end":13931.206,"text":"這就是現在學校發生的事情那我聽到的時候也覺得蠻不可思議的說其實我們現在性別平等工作法在職場上有非常明確的規定雇主不得要求勞工提交生理假的證明也不得影響權勤的獎金這個是在職場上規定的"},{"start":13946.417,"end":13966.372,"text":"可是回到校園沒想到我們校園如此的封閉如此的退步竟然是性平教育法裡面也沒有規定說學校不可以去刁難學生請生理假甚至也不能去影響學生的權情這些都是沒有相關規範的導致說很多學生想請生理假他還是不敢請"},{"start":13967.645,"end":13988.093,"text":"因為他會覺得我被懲罰我請生理假是我的錯嗎請問我生理期來我身心非常不適是我的錯嗎所以其實我得知這個消息之後我也是希望說我們教育部對於各個學校在執行這個保護學生上課權益的這件事情掌握度實在是太低了"},{"start":13988.553,"end":14013.644,"text":"那我希望在這邊次長雖然今天是次長來有點可惜那我還是希望說教育部可以承諾有一些基本的底線包括說請生理假不可以影響學生的權情然後請生理假也不可以影響學生的考試權益而且請假的流程應該是要隱私而且非常友善的這三個原則我希望教育部可以做到可以嗎"},{"start":14014.335,"end":14038.629,"text":"我想那個委員我是請那個國教署副署長來說明一下好那跟委員報告如果就是有關生理假的部分在高中是已經明訂了有這樣的假別那國民中小學的部分是縣市政府會納到他們自己所訂的規定裡頭那只要是納進去在國民中小學裡頭事實上如果他同意他請生理假的話就"},{"start":14040.029,"end":14063.252,"text":"应该是说不会影响他成绩因为他如果同意这个价别的话补行评量的时候要以实得的分数来计算但是高中的部分因为他们有学校的自主学校的没错这就是我一直在说的每一次我跟教育部反映教育部都说这个是学校的自主但事实上就是有学生因此而受影响所以我们希望教育部可以当学生的后盾嘛"},{"start":14064.805,"end":14082.622,"text":"對剛剛有提及在國民中小學是不會有這個問題那委員有提及說是不是不影響他的權情那就讓我們跟縣市政府再做討論好這個要拜託副署長喔那再來另外一個身心價的部分因為確實也有教育部現在有規定喔你們有一個高等"},{"start":14084.964,"end":14111.36,"text":"高等中學學校學生身心價的實施注意事項裡面的第十點竟然直接寫到說請身心調適價不得身領權傾獎那這件事情其實之前就有學生團體已經抗議過了那學生團體抗議過是希望說不要用這種非常懲罰式的好像代表說你就不鼓勵他們請身體調適價嘛他好像說你請了身心調適價"},{"start":14113.141,"end":14135.078,"text":"你要被懲罰那我不希望有這樣的意涵那當時他們教育部其實你沒有給過回應說全勤的標準制定是校園自治的一環你們又把問題丟給學校那事實上這個注意事項的辦法就是你們定的啊所以代表說在請生理假請生心調適假其實教育部是沒有跟學生站在一起的"},{"start":14136.786,"end":14162.959,"text":"好那跟委員報告身心調適假在高中的部分是從去年8月開始實施那委員所提及的是不是影響權情這也讓我們來跟學校溝通那這我們後續會再召開會議來討論好這個真的要拜託副署長那我還是要再次強調請生理假請身心調適假都不是學生的錯這個也不代表學生必須要去承擔這樣子的懲罰的性質的內容"},{"start":14165.245,"end":14187.633,"text":"所以呢如果要做到真正的校園友善拜託你們先幫學生排除這個相關的阻礙不要讓他們覺得說我為了要防止學生濫用所以你們把學生當賊去限制他們這些請假的規定那也希望真的做到讓他們請假的規則非常友善那來做學生的後盾好嗎好那這個好那次長可以嗎好這個再拜託你們謝謝"},{"start":14197.281,"end":14206.313,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝黃婕維委員次長請回我們接下來請林楚英 林楚英 林楚英委員不在請邱志偉委員"},{"start":14219.422,"end":14229.235,"text":"好 這個謝謝詹委謝謝主席 也請這個政務次長 葉次長好 請葉次長經濟部中小企業發展署 李署長好 請署長"},{"start":14233.472,"end":14254.431,"text":"時間寶貴,240秒第一個問題,這個院板會出來嗎?市長跟委員報告,我預計在這個會期院板會出來這個會期院板出來,是送到立法院還是送報院?我們在預計一個月後,一個月內會報行政院行政院還要核定,核定之後要送立法院?要送立法院"},{"start":14255.832,"end":14274.349,"text":"這個很重要的法案,這個也不是只有一個委員提,跨黨派很多委員都有提我想看過內容,內容裡面是林益錦的版本最好我個人覺得方方面面各方面,我覺得他都提到對青年照顧不是國家的責任"},{"start":14275.943,"end":14295.441,"text":"對親人照顧是一個會做事的政府這個應該放在施政的首要之一啦所以我覺得這個版本出來在委員會到現在還沒有已經排出來要審給你們壓力希望願版能夠早點出來所以你如果說在三個月之後才會進來對這個會計沒辦法審"},{"start":14298.905,"end":14322.49,"text":"越早通過越好這個有幾條比較就現有的委員提案版本裡面特別是要有一個專責單位專責單位您的看法是怎麼樣目前我們的草案專責單位就是教育部教育部裡面設什麼師嗎就是教育部擔任專責單位對 那執行單位呢"},{"start":14326.519,"end":14339.449,"text":"是跨部會就是青年發案署青年發案署那另外就是說你要有一定的預算規模就是寬列青年事務的預算專款專用那你覺得這個預算規模大概多少"},{"start":14342.154,"end":14354.818,"text":"這個可能還要跨部會來計算啦因為現在目前在各個部會有非常多照顧青年的這個計畫那這個到底目前的這個計畫規模是什麼我想這個還是要我們要再跟各部會來蒐集這樣的資訊再計算"},{"start":14359.295,"end":14386.241,"text":"這個重要性比青年的概念很明確不是抽象的青年需要政府需要國家協助的事項更明確更多相對各種條件資源相對比較不足比較弱勢比起什麼所謂的壯士代什麼壯士代我都莫名其妙您知道壯士代什麼意思嗎55歲以上那你現在是壯士代嗎"},{"start":14388.201,"end":14398.031,"text":"還不是所以這個含糊不清的概念竟然成為一個法案哎 華天下之大雞"},{"start":14400.031,"end":14425.268,"text":"沒辦法我們這個還是把最重要的青年基本法趕快通過所以你的預算也但你版本應該已經有大概出過未來如果這個版本青年基本法通過之後你大概要一年要編列多少預算來協助青年事務的發展那我這個是個基本法所以我們不會把那個預算的金額列到這裡面來這樣子好"},{"start":14426.158,"end":14432.574,"text":"那我接著請教一下經濟部經濟部在經濟委員會經濟委員會是中小企業發展署"},{"start":14434.696,"end":14459.352,"text":"新創產業的那個李署長新創產業怎麼去協助如果七年基本法通過之後你如果加大資源而不是以現有的架構現有資源去協助有基本法就代表說它是一個商業概念那你應該各部會要去落實對青年的協助跟照顧嘛所以我盤點也審查這個貴署預算我覺得還不夠而且南北分布不均"},{"start":14460.453,"end":14475.229,"text":"大家資源集中在北部南部的青年更需要協助包括你的新創的這個窗口新創的平台新創的資源國發基金各方面都不足不足之外還分配不均未來有沒有什麼改善的計畫"},{"start":14477.386,"end":14505.081,"text":"那個跟委員報告確實在整個的新創的這個聚落還有新創企業的推動當中我們也加強就照委員就說目前要改善這個北南不均的一個情況但是在這裡面特別針對青年在這個新創的這個族群裡面哪些是重要的領域產業或者是樣態我們怎麼樣來進一步來協助青年這個我們也會來持續來加強我們合理期待今年就通過青年基本法"},{"start":14505.561,"end":14525.227,"text":"先基本法下面各條的規定就是各部會要去對青年相關的事務去籌備相關的預算然後執行嘛然後這部分你們就先應該先做預先做準備在法案通過之後你們是不是盤你現在對青年的相關經濟的協助經濟的預算創業預算是不是有不足之處你應該要"},{"start":14527.628,"end":14541.654,"text":"這個把它補足 充裕相關的預算才能有效的來協助青年在經濟力的發展在參與經濟發展的過程中他們所需要的這個國家的協助跟支援好 謝謝是的 我們全力來推動好 謝謝邱智偉委員 謝謝次長請回不 次長請回好 我們接下來請陳培宇委員"},{"start":14557.022,"end":14560.203,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請次長好 有請葉次長好 次長午安我想要跟您快速確定一下未來青年基本法的主管機關應該還是會落在教育部對不對是 教育部那所以這個業務跟您有關但是在目前所有委員提出來的版本裡面我認為有非常多委員的提案有違法的疑慮我今天必須要在詢答當中提醒次長來 我們來看一下"},{"start":14584.674,"end":14608.188,"text":"我們都知道青年基本法的立法精神是為了保護青年發展權力擴大青年參與決策我們有更多的資源可以協助青年就如同剛剛邱志偉委員說的各部會必須要寬列預算支持所有的青年政策可是寬列預算跟設置專門的基金這件事情我不知道在次長您的認知當中是一樣的嗎"},{"start":14612.005,"end":14625.4,"text":"這兩件事情是不一樣的好 不一樣 怎麼樣的不一樣法如果是基金的話根據這個財政紀律法它是需要有財源才能夠設置基金所以這個跟寬列預算是不一樣的事情不一樣的嘛 好"},{"start":14626.081,"end":14632.904,"text":"那我的認知也是這樣當你要設置基金的時候你就必須要自己提出相對的裁員的來源目前我看了今天張偉寧所排案的版本裡面從葉元之林沛翔委員的提案版本他們是放在第19條羅廷偉委員的提案版本是放在第18條"},{"start":14645.269,"end":14667.096,"text":"魯明哲、楊瓊英、徐宇珍、游浩、邱若驊、羅廷維委員放的是第19條葛如軍、林沛翔、鄭振淺、洪孟凱、張志倫放的是第18條他們的寫法幾乎是一模一樣的叫做行政院應設置青年發展基金因為今天已經在做詢答了我不知道後續在討論的時候這個部分教育部有沒有先做出相關的研究跟討論、回應他們的版本如果要繼續強烈的要求教育部要設置相關的青年發展基金我們要怎麼辦"},{"start":14674.168,"end":14697.507,"text":"我想就是還是要這個依法還是你可以請你的同仁幫你回答好我請署長回答這部分我們依法行政如果說那個目前財政紀律法沒有法源的話那我們就沒有辦法這樣子去做事那我幫次長補充因為剛剛次長卡卡的齁我自己很喜歡繪本也很喜歡很有趣的梗圖這樣財政紀律法第七條告訴我們了"},{"start":14697.887,"end":14725.523,"text":"各級政府以及立法機關在制定修正法律的時候法規自治規範不得增訂固定經費額度或者是比率保障或者是把政府既有收入以成立基金的方法限定專款專用其實財政紀律法已經給次長給教育部你們工具了但剛剛這麼多國民黨的委員的版本卻不管是18條還是19條卻硬要設置相關基金來下一張"},{"start":14726.963,"end":14754.275,"text":"昨天在立法院的院會我們的附議案沒有通過兩個附議案都沒有通過中央政府總預算案還有才化法而相關混亂的財政相關的法案上路之後我們都不知道還會有多少地方政府的困境還會有多少中央機關的困境都還沒有辦法盤點清楚的情況下我還是很感謝昭偉排了青年基本法但是國民黨的版本裡面一再一再幾乎每一個委員都有類似的提案"},{"start":14754.955,"end":14770.026,"text":"那我要拜託教育部我們要堅守我們的態度所以剛剛我剛剛講了已經有法源依據而且次長就您的認知當中基金跟寬裂相關經費是不一樣的所以我必須要拜託次長是不是可以在這邊承諾我們後續在主條討論的時候我們要如何守住這條線"},{"start":14775.357,"end":14801.883,"text":"我想這個原則我們還是在這個我們不能違反財政紀律法所以我們在我們的草案擬定的時候會把這個納入參考好 那我們來看最後一張我想相關很多專家學者都已經說了我就不再贅述我時間有現在有最後一張我想除了是所有青年下一張我們所有的支持所有民進黨委員的支持我想教育部都感受到了但是我這邊要再一次的公開的呼籲用我自己質詢的時間我想要提"},{"start":14803.603,"end":14821.696,"text":"請這些有提出違法疑慮的提案的國民黨委員重新思考回頭試案包括在青年基本法設置基金還有那昨天已經沒有辦法回頭的相關復議案但是我覺得把兩件事情合在一起看我們更可以看見相關違法亂證的部分這是我個人的立場好 以上謝謝主席 謝謝次長 謝謝"},{"start":14824.17,"end":14835.28,"text":"好 謝謝陳培鈺委員次長請回我們接下來請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在我們接下來請李坤澄委員謝謝主席 請葉次長好 有請葉次長"},{"start":14850.811,"end":14862.107,"text":"市長好委員好這個青年基本法這個連同本席的提案有18個唯獨沒有這個行政院的版本請問一下行政院版本誰會提出來"},{"start":14862.868,"end":14892.448,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在布版的草案已經擬定完成然後因為裡面牽扯到很多其他部會的這個權責還有這個地方政府所以我們現在正在跟地方政府還有各部會在做協調我們預計在一個月內完成協調之後就會把我們的布版會報院報行政院然後預告然後我們預計在這個會期之內會有院版的出爐這樣子所以這個會期有院版出來那可能要"},{"start":14893.568,"end":14920.264,"text":"這個會期不知道會不會討論到請我們召委排案可能才討論得到這個我給你看兩張新聞一個是2024年的清明協催生青年基本法一個是2025年的那也是青年團體希望青年基本法能夠推出來所以2024、2025其實你看一年的時間又過去了時間是過很快再請教一下次長"},{"start":14921.346,"end":14944.792,"text":"去年大概也這個時候五月份我們有辦了一個青年基本法的公聽會那這一年來這個公聽會結束之後我們做了哪些事情我們其實是收集很多各界的意見特別是這個法因為我們也要參著其他國家的法律其實花比較多時間在這方面的研究"},{"start":14947.133,"end":14968.653,"text":"這個研究時間太久了雖然次長您是學者但是我是認為時間拉得太長了去年就在呼籲 去年也開了公聽會那結果呢 到了今年如果不是我們召委今天排案的話不知道哪時候才能討論到這個青年基本法那請教一下 次長我們之前有一個主管青年事務的部會叫青輔會"},{"start":14969.874,"end":14990.159,"text":"不過在滿久執政的時候就不見了,變成教育部的青年署所以我們現在組織的青年事務就是教育部的青年署嗎?現在專責的單位就是教育部,我們把它位階提高到教育部教育部,未來修法,現在是青年署嗎?"},{"start":14992.376,"end":15007.109,"text":"現在是 委員是說現在現在是青年署那你說好 你要修法把它提高到教育部的這個意義是在哪裡是青年署不見了嗎青年署還在那提高到教育部的意義是什麼"},{"start":15008.278,"end":15026.288,"text":"就是因為這裡面有第一個這裡面有蠻多是跟其他部會因為這個裡面會訂規管的其他部會要做的事情所以如果是青年署的層級的話他可能不夠所以我們就由教育部來做為這個我們的中央的主管機關"},{"start":15028.091,"end":15040.064,"text":"對 因為本來是教育部的青年署那現在你說是教育部那所以其實我還是不太清楚說你未接提高到教育部其實我還覺得還不夠啊你是教育部的部長"},{"start":15041.905,"end":15067.659,"text":"來主持這一個不是因為剛才委員提到就是說這裡面還有很多的業務是牽扯到其他部會的所以我們另外還有一條會定就是說由行政院院長由院長來召開這個青年的事務的協調會報那這裡面涵蓋的青年代表還有各部會的這個機關的首長們然後來那個大概定期來開這個會那跨部會的跟跨部會有關的這個青年事務就由院長召開這個會報來協調這樣"},{"start":15070.1,"end":15093.082,"text":"跨部會有這個所謂的青年事務協調會報之類的是院長來主持然後呢那其他的這一個比如說有關青年事務發展的就在你們教育部這邊然後其他的各部會他們有目前他們負責有關青年部分的又由他們來主管就對了那我請教一下"},{"start":15093.482,"end":15120.569,"text":"因為這個青年基本法很多的青年團體有五大訴求一個青年身份的法制化那就是有關年齡嘛那你們現在我看是以18到35歲嘛我的版本當然比較15啦那沒有關係這個都還可以討論各縣市成立青年專責機關因為現在我看各個縣市也都有青年局了嘛然後呢定期公佈青年政策白皮書這個有在做嗎"},{"start":15121.904,"end":15149.601,"text":"有 有在做 現在正在做每年都在做嗎我們正在努力我們現在正在預計在2026嘛因為2026會出爐2026 明年對 明年會出爐政府定期召開青年國事會議這個有在有想要 有要準備嗎我們在研擬中啦研擬中也在研擬中喔所以意見有的我想這個我們"},{"start":15151.104,"end":15178.567,"text":"大多數往納入 但有一些我們可能還在研擬當中對啊 因為賴總統他其實在選前就提到這個上任後政府要發布這個青年政策白皮書那這樣聽起來是明年的事情這個我也是覺得有點delay了那我也是希望說這一個青年們或是說我們這麼多的立委不分黨派都有在關心這件事情那教育部動作再加速 再快一點 好吧 好 謝謝"},{"start":15182.435,"end":15206.382,"text":"好 謝謝李坤城委員次長請回接下來請何欣淳委員何欣淳 何欣淳委員不在我們請徐欣盈委員徐欣盈 徐欣盈委員不在我們請洪孟凱委員洪孟凱 洪孟凱委員不在我們請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢"},{"start":15207.242,"end":15233.957,"text":"立有臨處應委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議作如下決議報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報關於委員質詢要求提供相關資料即為即答負者請相關機關盡速以書面答覆今年基本法草案相關草案定定其審查報委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":15239.121,"end":15246.749,"text":"謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16509","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16509","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e6d254b92567b84ce521c71e7043aa1ac7a524d1b3d409a1a30bc26677d1de0945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-13T08:31:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:28:00+08:00","duration":14197,"影片長度":"03:56:37","委員發言時間":"08:31:23 - 12:28:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1880.6653437500001,"end":1882.9434687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1883.4665937500001,"end":1887.3309687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1887.65159375,"end":1888.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1888.9678437500002,"end":1889.9465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1889.9465937500001,"end":1889.9634687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1889.9634687500002,"end":1890.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1890.0309687500003,"end":1890.3178437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1891.5497187500002,"end":1893.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1894.2159687500002,"end":1898.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1900.03784375,"end":1909.2684687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1909.47096875,"end":1913.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1914.2128437500003,"end":1916.1197187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1916.4234687500002,"end":1917.5372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1917.90846875,"end":1922.0765937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1922.3634687500003,"end":1927.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1927.45971875,"end":1928.6240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1928.9109687500002,"end":1931.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1932.38721875,"end":1938.7490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1939.0528437500002,"end":1942.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1943.1028437500001,"end":1947.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1947.8109687500003,"end":1954.9322187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1954.9828437500003,"end":1956.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1957.3284687500002,"end":1958.7290937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1959.2859687500002,"end":1963.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1963.87596875,"end":1971.2840937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1972.44846875,"end":1974.7772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1975.3847187500003,"end":1978.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1979.5190937500001,"end":1988.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1989.89721875,"end":1992.1078437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1992.58034375,"end":1996.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":1996.6640937500001,"end":1999.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2011.12596875,"end":2019.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2019.7828437500002,"end":2020.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2024.5753437500002,"end":2024.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2025.7397187500003,"end":2065.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2066.2565937500003,"end":2069.8172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2070.0703437500006,"end":2071.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2071.89284375,"end":2073.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2074.44096875,"end":2084.4647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2085.22409375,"end":2088.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2088.58221875,"end":2095.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2095.9734687500004,"end":2106.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2106.5372187500006,"end":2107.1953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2107.65096875,"end":2108.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2108.2078437500004,"end":2114.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2115.4303437500002,"end":2116.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2116.79721875,"end":2158.3434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2158.7147187500004,"end":2167.8272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2168.73846875,"end":2189.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2190.5409687500005,"end":2201.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2201.71221875,"end":2204.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2204.59784375,"end":2210.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2211.0778437500003,"end":2218.8572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2219.48159375,"end":2219.8359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2220.7303437500004,"end":2229.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2232.45846875,"end":2232.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2233.72409375,"end":2256.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2256.85971875,"end":2290.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2292.3984687500006,"end":2298.7265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2299.30034375,"end":2302.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2303.43471875,"end":2304.8690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2306.40471875,"end":2306.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2307.65346875,"end":2307.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2308.2272187500002,"end":2316.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2316.88409375,"end":2324.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2324.2753437500005,"end":2329.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2330.82284375,"end":2331.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2332.18971875,"end":2333.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2333.9278437500006,"end":2334.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2336.10471875,"end":2345.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2345.9090937500005,"end":2382.5615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2383.3884687500004,"end":2384.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2385.5147187500006,"end":2393.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2393.71596875,"end":2404.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2405.37659375,"end":2432.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2433.08534375,"end":2434.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2436.4940937500005,"end":2445.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2446.82159375,"end":2473.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2474.42909375,"end":2479.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2480.1328437500006,"end":2480.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2481.06096875,"end":2483.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2483.2715937500006,"end":2490.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2490.51096875,"end":2508.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2508.7528437500005,"end":2512.6003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2512.70159375,"end":2524.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2528.9353437500004,"end":2531.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2531.80409375,"end":2533.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2534.3690937500005,"end":2535.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2536.4615937500002,"end":2537.6934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2538.19971875,"end":2539.3809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2541.0684687500006,"end":2543.1778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2545.5740937500004,"end":2548.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2549.59034375,"end":2552.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2553.5390937500006,"end":2555.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2556.6103437500005,"end":2558.9053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2559.58034375,"end":2562.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2563.09034375,"end":2565.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2565.5709687500002,"end":2566.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2567.5622187500003,"end":2569.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2569.70534375,"end":2570.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2571.3590937500003,"end":2573.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2574.36284375,"end":2576.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2576.5059687500006,"end":2577.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2578.0584687500004,"end":2579.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2579.84721875,"end":2580.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2581.9734687500004,"end":2583.7115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2584.3359687500006,"end":2586.4284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2587.1034687500005,"end":2588.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2589.12846875,"end":2590.0565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2590.68096875,"end":2592.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2592.9422187500004,"end":2593.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2594.5115937500004,"end":2597.0934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2597.31284375,"end":2598.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2598.76409375,"end":2602.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2603.80971875,"end":2606.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2606.47596875,"end":2612.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2613.04034375,"end":2619.7734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2620.3640937500004,"end":2623.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2623.94159375,"end":2625.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2626.0340937500005,"end":2626.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2627.0465937500003,"end":2627.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2638.7409687500003,"end":2648.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2649.7940937500007,"end":2651.4140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2654.2490937500006,"end":2655.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2658.67034375,"end":2659.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2659.4128437500003,"end":2660.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2660.10471875,"end":2660.4422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2660.4422187500004,"end":2668.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2665.79159375,"end":2665.9265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2668.72784375,"end":2672.5753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2672.87909375,"end":2675.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2675.0897187500004,"end":2689.3828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2689.82159375,"end":2707.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2707.4559687500005,"end":2708.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2708.02971875,"end":2708.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2708.4853437500005,"end":2708.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2708.9747187500006,"end":2709.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2710.07159375,"end":2721.1247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2721.6647187500002,"end":2732.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2730.76034375,"end":2731.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2732.68409375,"end":2733.7472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2734.35471875,"end":2742.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2742.97784375,"end":2755.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2755.9209687500006,"end":2758.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2758.3340937500006,"end":2759.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2759.3972187500003,"end":2760.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2761.0847187500003,"end":2761.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2761.2197187500005,"end":2761.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2762.40096875,"end":2770.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2766.97409375,"end":2772.1378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2771.00721875,"end":2801.2472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2774.75346875,"end":2775.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2777.26784375,"end":2777.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2801.2472187500007,"end":2810.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2811.4059687500003,"end":2814.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2814.20721875,"end":2821.7165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2822.42534375,"end":2843.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2843.82284375,"end":2851.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2850.6065937500007,"end":2851.2647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2851.2647187500006,"end":2851.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2851.9734687500004,"end":2852.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2853.1209687500004,"end":2872.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2872.2909687500005,"end":2878.8722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2879.2772187500004,"end":2886.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2886.95534375,"end":2894.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2895.08909375,"end":2916.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2916.13221875,"end":2917.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2916.67221875,"end":2917.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2918.42721875,"end":2922.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2923.6415937500005,"end":2923.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2923.96221875,"end":2924.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2924.68784375,"end":2931.7247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2932.2647187500006,"end":2932.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2932.28159375,"end":2941.9003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2941.39409375,"end":2943.7565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2944.33034375,"end":2952.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2952.97034375,"end":2961.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2955.0290937500004,"end":2955.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2961.5934687500003,"end":2961.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2961.62721875,"end":2961.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2961.64409375,"end":2961.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2961.74534375,"end":2961.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2961.7959687500006,"end":2998.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2969.6934687500006,"end":2969.7440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2969.7440937500005,"end":2969.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2998.9715937500005,"end":3009.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3010.5478437500005,"end":3031.8272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3031.00034375,"end":3032.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3032.8903437500003,"end":3047.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3047.68971875,"end":3049.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3050.10284375,"end":3055.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3050.1534687500007,"end":3050.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3055.1315937500003,"end":3064.1090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3063.48471875,"end":3065.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3066.1172187500006,"end":3070.3359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3070.3359687500006,"end":3070.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3070.6903437500005,"end":3078.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3074.70659375,"end":3074.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3078.90846875,"end":3084.3084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3084.3084687500004,"end":3102.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3091.8515937500006,"end":3092.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3101.04846875,"end":3101.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3102.78659375,"end":3126.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3102.8203437500006,"end":3102.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3126.9684687500003,"end":3146.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3140.73846875,"end":3141.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3146.4928437500002,"end":3159.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3159.90846875,"end":3164.9372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3165.1228437500004,"end":3166.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3166.37159375,"end":3166.3884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3166.84409375,"end":3166.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3166.86096875,"end":3166.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3166.8778437500005,"end":3166.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3166.96221875,"end":3175.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3176.36159375,"end":3196.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3196.93221875,"end":3202.4503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3202.6865937500006,"end":3206.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3206.8209687500002,"end":3209.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3209.7403437500006,"end":3213.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3212.8115937500006,"end":3234.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3234.29346875,"end":3234.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3234.6815937500005,"end":3242.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3238.07346875,"end":3239.3897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3240.25034375,"end":3240.7734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3242.07284375,"end":3282.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3282.5390937500006,"end":3291.3478437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3291.36471875,"end":3306.3328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3305.75909375,"end":3353.4647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3352.8065937500005,"end":3357.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3357.54846875,"end":3369.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3365.54721875,"end":3367.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3367.9772187500002,"end":3368.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3369.1922187500004,"end":3370.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3369.8672187500006,"end":3371.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3370.12034375,"end":3370.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3370.20471875,"end":3370.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3370.60971875,"end":3371.9259687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3371.9259687500007,"end":3371.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3372.8709687500004,"end":3374.4572187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3375.48659375,"end":3375.8409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3377.6803437500002,"end":3378.3047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3379.0978437500007,"end":3379.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3379.9247187500005,"end":3380.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3381.1903437500005,"end":3383.4684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3384.97034375,"end":3385.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3385.44284375,"end":3385.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3385.7803437500006,"end":3386.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3386.03346875,"end":3386.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3386.3709687500004,"end":3386.4890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3386.94471875,"end":3387.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3394.8084687500004,"end":3395.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3399.31409375,"end":3400.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3401.11971875,"end":3402.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":3401.7272187500002,"end":3401.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3402.2840937500005,"end":3403.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3407.0934687500003,"end":3409.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3410.0128437500007,"end":3412.8984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3413.8603437500005,"end":3416.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3416.6784687500003,"end":3416.6953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3416.6953437500006,"end":3417.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3417.38721875,"end":3418.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3418.8047187500006,"end":3419.6315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3418.8553437500004,"end":3419.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3420.7959687500006,"end":3421.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3421.8253437500007,"end":3422.1797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3422.75346875,"end":3423.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3423.7322187500004,"end":3435.2072187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3435.2072187500007,"end":3436.1015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3435.64596875,"end":3440.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3440.15159375,"end":3440.4890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3440.4890937500004,"end":3440.5059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3440.6072187500004,"end":3441.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3441.1640937500006,"end":3445.8553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3446.2772187500004,"end":3446.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3446.80034375,"end":3447.7959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3447.9815937500007,"end":3448.4034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3449.1797187500006,"end":3451.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3451.55909375,"end":3454.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3454.2928437500004,"end":3454.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3455.0859687500006,"end":3456.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3456.5709687500002,"end":3456.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3456.67221875,"end":3456.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3456.73971875,"end":3461.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3456.8240937500004,"end":3456.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3461.5322187500005,"end":3464.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3464.8397187500004,"end":3469.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3467.40471875,"end":3469.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3469.4972187500007,"end":3469.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3469.5309687500003,"end":3472.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3472.0622187500003,"end":3475.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3473.98596875,"end":3474.0703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3475.4372187500003,"end":3475.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3475.5047187500004,"end":3475.9265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3475.9265937500004,"end":3478.5084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3479.0653437500005,"end":3486.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3486.03471875,"end":3486.7940937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3486.4059687500003,"end":3488.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3488.19471875,"end":3490.6922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3490.84409375,"end":3494.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3494.5397187500002,"end":3495.9572187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3496.34534375,"end":3500.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3501.1884687500005,"end":3501.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3502.4372187500003,"end":3505.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3505.54221875,"end":3505.5759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3505.5759687500004,"end":3505.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3505.96409375,"end":3509.9128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3510.0984687500004,"end":3510.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3511.0097187500005,"end":3511.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3512.4440937500003,"end":3514.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3515.3465937500005,"end":3516.6628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3516.6122187500005,"end":3522.0459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3522.5184687500005,"end":3525.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3525.79221875,"end":3531.8503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3532.54221875,"end":3533.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3533.6728437500005,"end":3540.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3541.06409375,"end":3544.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3544.9284687500003,"end":3545.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3546.10971875,"end":3547.7128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3548.59034375,"end":3550.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3550.8009687500007,"end":3552.4884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3552.62346875,"end":3552.6403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3552.6403437500003,"end":3553.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3554.0915937500004,"end":3556.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3556.5047187500004,"end":3556.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3556.6903437500005,"end":3557.6015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3558.0909687500007,"end":3558.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3559.3903437500003,"end":3560.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3560.3184687500006,"end":3560.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3560.3522187500002,"end":3560.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3560.40284375,"end":3561.1622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3561.9384687500005,"end":3562.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3563.2040937500005,"end":3564.7565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3565.2459687500004,"end":3568.6715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3569.0934687500003,"end":3571.8103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3571.8103437500004,"end":3572.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3572.4684687500003,"end":3573.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3572.8565937500007,"end":3573.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3573.71721875,"end":3576.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3576.67034375,"end":3577.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3577.15971875,"end":3577.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3577.1765937500004,"end":3577.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3577.21034375,"end":3577.2947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3577.2947187500004,"end":3579.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3577.32846875,"end":3577.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3579.2353437500005,"end":3579.2859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3579.2859687500004,"end":3579.4884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3579.9103437500007,"end":3583.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3583.58909375,"end":3585.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3586.5928437500006,"end":3588.2803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3588.3984687500006,"end":3588.7697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3588.7697187500007,"end":3591.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3591.26721875,"end":3591.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3592.04346875,"end":3595.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3595.6715937500003,"end":3599.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3599.5865937500002,"end":3600.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3600.3290937500005,"end":3600.4978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3600.7509687500005,"end":3601.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3601.2909687500005,"end":3602.8097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3604.2440937500005,"end":3606.2859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3606.6065937500007,"end":3609.7115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3609.8634687500007,"end":3610.2009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3610.04909375,"end":3611.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3612.0234687500006,"end":3613.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3613.3565937500007,"end":3613.6940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3613.9303437500002,"end":3619.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3619.46534375,"end":3627.2784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3627.4303437500002,"end":3628.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3628.2740937500002,"end":3630.3328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3630.3328437500004,"end":3630.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3631.4128437500003,"end":3632.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3632.9315937500005,"end":3633.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3634.3153437500005,"end":3635.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3636.0703437500006,"end":3637.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3638.0615937500006,"end":3638.9728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3639.29346875,"end":3642.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3643.6134687500007,"end":3644.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3645.0478437500005,"end":3647.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3647.91659375,"end":3647.9334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3647.9334687500004,"end":3650.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3648.1697187500004,"end":3648.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3650.4815937500007,"end":3651.8484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3652.06784375,"end":3655.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3654.34596875,"end":3654.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3654.36284375,"end":3654.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3655.32471875,"end":3657.3328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3658.21034375,"end":3702.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3702.74346875,"end":3716.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3716.26034375,"end":3716.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3716.31096875,"end":3716.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3716.5809687500005,"end":3717.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3717.32346875,"end":3729.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3717.5428437500004,"end":3717.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3727.46534375,"end":3727.4990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3727.4990937500006,"end":3727.6678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3729.6084687500006,"end":3730.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3729.74346875,"end":3730.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3730.30034375,"end":3731.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3732.40971875,"end":3742.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3735.36284375,"end":3737.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3741.2859687500004,"end":3760.7597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3760.9453437500006,"end":3777.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3773.21346875,"end":3774.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3774.0740937500004,"end":3774.0909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3777.97221875,"end":3781.0265937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3779.9972187500007,"end":3812.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3783.8278437500003,"end":3784.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3796.0115937500004,"end":3797.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3797.56409375,"end":3797.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3805.02284375,"end":3805.0397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3805.0397187500002,"end":3805.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3812.02596875,"end":3823.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3823.70346875,"end":3835.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3835.9715937500005,"end":3837.0515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3837.1359687500008,"end":3837.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3838.1990937500004,"end":3844.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3844.1222187500007,"end":3845.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3845.82659375,"end":3848.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3848.6278437500005,"end":3848.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3848.96534375,"end":3852.6609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3848.9822187500004,"end":3849.0665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3853.0828437500004,"end":3859.0059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3859.0059687500006,"end":3859.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3859.39409375,"end":3861.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3861.3009687500007,"end":3863.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3864.5578437500008,"end":3865.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3865.53659375,"end":3867.4772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3868.0847187500003,"end":3881.2472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3871.02096875,"end":3871.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3871.0378437500003,"end":3871.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3871.13909375,"end":3871.5440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3873.43409375,"end":3873.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3873.50159375,"end":3873.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3874.3622187500005,"end":3875.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3877.8722187500007,"end":3878.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3880.3865937500004,"end":3881.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3882.04034375,"end":3897.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3886.39409375,"end":3886.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3898.67909375,"end":3899.9615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3900.2147187500004,"end":3912.3478437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3912.4490937500004,"end":3913.1072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3913.37721875,"end":3914.1365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3914.42346875,"end":3915.1659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3915.9928437500002,"end":3917.5284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3918.03471875,"end":3919.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3919.46909375,"end":3920.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3920.7684687500005,"end":3926.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3927.1472187500003,"end":3941.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3939.01034375,"end":3939.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3939.0272187500004,"end":3939.6515937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3941.6090937500003,"end":3944.1403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3944.6465937500006,"end":3944.7478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3944.9840937500003,"end":3946.9922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3947.44784375,"end":3949.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3949.3209687500002,"end":3956.4590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3956.4590937500006,"end":3957.7078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3957.5390937500006,"end":3959.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3959.54721875,"end":3960.0534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3960.0534687500003,"end":3963.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3964.86284375,"end":3972.3722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3968.84534375,"end":3969.1659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3972.6759687500007,"end":3976.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3976.5234687500006,"end":3976.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3976.84409375,"end":3980.7422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3980.7422187500006,"end":3980.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3980.87721875,"end":3986.2772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3986.61471875,"end":3988.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3988.7409687500003,"end":3989.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3989.02784375,"end":3990.9178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3989.0447187500004,"end":3989.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3991.3565937500007,"end":3992.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3993.9384687500005,"end":3997.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3997.1278437500005,"end":3997.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3997.3640937500004,"end":4000.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4000.0303437500006,"end":4000.7390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4000.7390937500004,"end":4000.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4000.7897187500002,"end":4010.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4010.00346875,"end":4010.2734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4010.2734687500006,"end":4020.6347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4013.49659375,"end":4013.8340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4020.6347187500005,"end":4020.6515937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4021.1915937500007,"end":4021.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4021.8834687500002,"end":4021.9172187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4021.9172187500008,"end":4021.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4021.9678437500006,"end":4021.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4021.98471875,"end":4022.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4022.00159375,"end":4029.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4026.4903437500006,"end":4027.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4029.76409375,"end":4030.3209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4030.9959687500004,"end":4036.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4032.59909375,"end":4037.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4036.34534375,"end":4037.4590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4037.0372187500006,"end":4039.5684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4039.7372187500005,"end":4041.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4048.7822187500005,"end":4054.4353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4060.51034375,"end":4061.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4062.1640937500006,"end":4063.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4064.0878437500005,"end":4064.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4064.89784375,"end":4073.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4069.23471875,"end":4069.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4073.63909375,"end":4080.7265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4074.8709687500004,"end":4075.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4077.62159375,"end":4077.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4077.79034375,"end":4077.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4081.2665937500005,"end":4087.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4087.5778437500003,"end":4088.5059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4088.5565937500005,"end":4092.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4093.1465937500006,"end":4093.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4093.70346875,"end":4096.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4096.437218749999,"end":4098.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4098.749093750001,"end":4099.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4099.13721875,"end":4104.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4099.154093749999,"end":4099.204718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4104.655343750001,"end":4105.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4105.904093749999,"end":4109.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4109.717843750001,"end":4111.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4111.70909375,"end":4112.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4112.012843750001,"end":4115.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4116.079718749999,"end":4118.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4118.999093750001,"end":4119.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4120.33221875,"end":4121.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4121.81721875,"end":4126.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4126.120343750001,"end":4126.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4126.575968749999,"end":4126.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4126.87971875,"end":4126.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4127.1834687499995,"end":4130.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4130.372843749999,"end":4130.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4130.4403437500005,"end":4130.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4130.5584687499995,"end":4130.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4130.5584687499995,"end":4139.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4139.95784375,"end":4140.548468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4141.42596875,"end":4142.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4142.6747187500005,"end":4143.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4143.737843749999,"end":4154.284718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4147.78784375,"end":4147.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4154.87534375,"end":4159.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4158.655343750001,"end":4158.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4158.874718749999,"end":4158.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4158.90846875,"end":4159.110968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4160.27534375,"end":4181.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4181.26784375,"end":4210.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4186.296593749999,"end":4186.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4186.70159375,"end":4186.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4186.954718749999,"end":4187.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4187.005343750001,"end":4187.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4187.20784375,"end":4187.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4188.7772187499995,"end":4189.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4189.030343750001,"end":4189.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4189.09784375,"end":4189.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4189.73909375,"end":4190.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4193.519093749999,"end":4195.577843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4199.3240937499995,"end":4200.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4200.370343750001,"end":4200.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4210.41096875,"end":4212.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4212.95909375,"end":4225.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4216.89096875,"end":4217.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4221.092843750001,"end":4221.548468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4225.46346875,"end":4225.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4225.69971875,"end":4239.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4229.12534375,"end":4229.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4231.15034375,"end":4231.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4231.55534375,"end":4231.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4234.13721875,"end":4234.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4239.554093750001,"end":4240.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4240.14471875,"end":4247.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4247.11409375,"end":4247.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4247.4853437500005,"end":4248.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4248.95346875,"end":4263.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4253.796593749999,"end":4254.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4263.66846875,"end":4263.972218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4263.972218749999,"end":4279.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4264.14096875,"end":4264.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4269.321593750001,"end":4269.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4269.33846875,"end":4269.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4278.95721875,"end":4279.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4279.581593749999,"end":4284.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4284.94784375,"end":4286.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4286.854718750001,"end":4296.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4296.52409375,"end":4312.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4312.97721875,"end":4314.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4314.512843750001,"end":4315.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4315.03596875,"end":4315.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4315.069718750001,"end":4315.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4315.4072187500005,"end":4321.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4321.61721875,"end":4327.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4328.21534375,"end":4332.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4333.09221875,"end":4336.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4336.46721875,"end":4336.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4336.61909375,"end":4336.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4336.83846875,"end":4337.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4337.88471875,"end":4338.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4338.20534375,"end":4341.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4341.68159375,"end":4350.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4351.300343749999,"end":4354.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4354.202843749999,"end":4358.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4354.42221875,"end":4354.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4358.944718750001,"end":4367.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4367.888468749999,"end":4372.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4372.84971875,"end":4380.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4380.81471875,"end":4381.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4382.21534375,"end":4385.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4385.607218749999,"end":4387.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4387.868468750001,"end":4389.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4389.876593749999,"end":4390.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4391.243468750001,"end":4392.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4393.70721875,"end":4396.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4397.014718750001,"end":4397.284718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4397.6728437500005,"end":4407.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4398.29721875,"end":4398.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4399.680968750001,"end":4399.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4408.08471875,"end":4408.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4408.354718750001,"end":4425.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4426.3603437500005,"end":4447.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4447.74096875,"end":4454.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4455.4022187499995,"end":4463.097218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4463.434718750001,"end":4473.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4473.8465937500005,"end":4484.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4484.764718750001,"end":4488.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4488.52784375,"end":4500.593468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4492.071593750001,"end":4492.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4501.487843749999,"end":4502.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4502.12909375,"end":4507.579718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4507.88346875,"end":4516.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4516.860968749999,"end":4517.940968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4518.7509687500005,"end":4523.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4519.729718750001,"end":4519.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4523.847218749999,"end":4533.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4535.102843750001,"end":4536.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4536.452843749999,"end":4537.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4537.684718750001,"end":4538.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4538.477843750001,"end":4539.878468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4539.33846875,"end":4540.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4540.89096875,"end":4545.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4545.53159375,"end":4545.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4545.61596875,"end":4545.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4545.81846875,"end":4547.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4547.522843750001,"end":4554.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4553.5809687500005,"end":4559.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4556.804093750001,"end":4557.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4559.45346875,"end":4559.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4559.53784375,"end":4559.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4559.655968749999,"end":4560.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4560.38159375,"end":4567.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4567.215968750001,"end":4568.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4567.94159375,"end":4575.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4575.501593749999,"end":4582.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4582.859093749999,"end":4585.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4585.913468750001,"end":4589.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4590.216593749999,"end":4591.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4592.07284375,"end":4593.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4593.54096875,"end":4593.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4593.608468750001,"end":4593.642218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4593.642218749999,"end":4593.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4593.827843749999,"end":4593.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4593.94596875,"end":4597.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4595.97096875,"end":4600.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4597.962218750001,"end":4598.704718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4600.965968750001,"end":4603.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4604.374718749999,"end":4607.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4607.3447187500005,"end":4608.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4617.58784375,"end":4618.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4618.026593750001,"end":4618.769093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4619.64659375,"end":4623.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4629.14721875,"end":4630.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4630.17659375,"end":4630.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4630.581593749999,"end":4631.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4631.03721875,"end":4632.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4632.38721875,"end":4633.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4633.19721875,"end":4638.597218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4639.00221875,"end":4643.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4643.997218750001,"end":4644.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4644.01409375,"end":4644.081593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4644.081593749999,"end":4645.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4644.09846875,"end":4644.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4646.0897187499995,"end":4649.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4650.3084687499995,"end":4660.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4661.41221875,"end":4670.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4671.4697187500005,"end":4677.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4677.94971875,"end":4680.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4681.965968750001,"end":4683.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4684.42971875,"end":4685.3240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4685.661593750001,"end":4686.269093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4686.94409375,"end":4689.222218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4689.458468750001,"end":4691.939093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4692.090968750001,"end":4693.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4695.415343750001,"end":4698.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4698.4697187500005,"end":4714.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4700.07284375,"end":4702.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4705.067843750001,"end":4705.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4706.4853437500005,"end":4707.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4708.155968749999,"end":4709.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4710.045968750001,"end":4710.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4710.889718750001,"end":4719.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4715.91846875,"end":4717.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4719.3778437500005,"end":4719.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4719.968468749999,"end":4721.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4720.154093749999,"end":4722.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4722.38159375,"end":4727.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4726.110968749999,"end":4726.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4728.70971875,"end":4729.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4731.3759687500005,"end":4746.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4744.33596875,"end":4746.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4746.20909375,"end":4746.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4746.61409375,"end":4769.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4746.647843750001,"end":4749.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4749.98909375,"end":4752.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4753.026593750001,"end":4755.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4756.452218750001,"end":4758.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4759.118468750001,"end":4760.890343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4769.36159375,"end":4772.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4769.6990937499995,"end":4776.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4773.42846875,"end":4777.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4777.66409375,"end":4779.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4778.237843750001,"end":4779.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4779.790343750001,"end":4779.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4779.840968750001,"end":4787.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4783.0809687500005,"end":4786.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4786.675343750001,"end":4799.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4787.890343749999,"end":4788.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4790.2528437500005,"end":4793.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4799.888468749999,"end":4816.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4799.92221875,"end":4801.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4801.812218749999,"end":4801.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4802.2509687500005,"end":4803.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4810.78971875,"end":4814.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4815.00846875,"end":4826.517218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4818.75471875,"end":4819.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4819.1259687500005,"end":4820.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4820.762843750001,"end":4820.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4826.73659375,"end":4828.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4829.21721875,"end":4832.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4830.972218750001,"end":4831.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4831.1747187500005,"end":4831.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4832.794718749999,"end":4842.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4842.312218749999,"end":4842.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4843.155968749999,"end":4843.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4843.814093749999,"end":4844.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4844.69159375,"end":4844.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4844.97846875,"end":4845.501593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4845.501593749999,"end":4846.767218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4846.09221875,"end":4846.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4847.25659375,"end":4849.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4847.3240937499995,"end":4849.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4849.97346875,"end":4850.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4850.91846875,"end":4852.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4851.323468750001,"end":4851.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4852.403468750001,"end":4852.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4853.044718749999,"end":4854.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4854.85034375,"end":4855.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4855.019093750001,"end":4855.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4855.255343750001,"end":4856.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4856.95971875,"end":4857.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4857.38159375,"end":4857.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4857.82034375,"end":4857.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4857.972218750001,"end":4858.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4858.731593750001,"end":4880.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4859.997218750001,"end":4860.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4881.20909375,"end":4889.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4890.33846875,"end":4890.642218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4891.65471875,"end":4892.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4892.4647187499995,"end":4900.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4892.515343749999,"end":4894.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4894.65846875,"end":4895.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4895.654093749999,"end":4896.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4899.38346875,"end":4908.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4908.546593749999,"end":4913.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4913.06909375,"end":4932.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4915.819718750001,"end":4917.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4932.829718749999,"end":4935.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4933.60596875,"end":4934.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4936.154093749999,"end":4941.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4941.975968750001,"end":4952.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4951.88159375,"end":4955.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4953.99096875,"end":4954.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4956.11721875,"end":4961.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4956.96096875,"end":4957.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4961.97284375,"end":4972.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4968.132218750001,"end":4968.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4968.452843749999,"end":4968.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4968.52034375,"end":4969.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4969.920968750001,"end":4969.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4969.9715937500005,"end":4970.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4970.325968749999,"end":4970.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4970.528468750001,"end":4970.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4970.96721875,"end":4971.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4972.94159375,"end":4980.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4973.07659375,"end":4973.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4974.57846875,"end":4977.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4978.47659375,"end":4979.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4981.075343750001,"end":5009.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4989.698468750001,"end":4994.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4995.030968749999,"end":4995.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4995.85784375,"end":4998.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5005.155968749999,"end":5007.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5007.450968749999,"end":5007.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5007.737843750001,"end":5008.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5009.69534375,"end":5009.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5010.319718750001,"end":5011.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5012.243468750001,"end":5018.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5016.71534375,"end":5019.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5018.655968749999,"end":5019.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5020.343468749999,"end":5021.845343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5022.25034375,"end":5023.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5022.43596875,"end":5023.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5024.190968750001,"end":5025.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5024.54534375,"end":5024.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5026.55346875,"end":5031.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5028.02159375,"end":5029.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5031.1434687500005,"end":5031.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5031.919718749999,"end":5034.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5035.04159375,"end":5035.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5036.83034375,"end":5037.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5037.5897187499995,"end":5042.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5042.50034375,"end":5046.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5046.71909375,"end":5047.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5047.66409375,"end":5058.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5052.86159375,"end":5053.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5053.28346875,"end":5053.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5053.57034375,"end":5053.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5054.279093749999,"end":5054.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5055.966593749999,"end":5061.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5058.86909375,"end":5058.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5058.90284375,"end":5059.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5060.50596875,"end":5060.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5060.53971875,"end":5066.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5066.007218750001,"end":5066.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5066.901593750001,"end":5068.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5067.66096875,"end":5067.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5068.08284375,"end":5070.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5068.774718750001,"end":5070.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5070.934718750001,"end":5070.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5070.968468749999,"end":5071.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5071.00221875,"end":5071.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5071.03596875,"end":5073.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5073.415343750001,"end":5091.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5087.77596875,"end":5089.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5090.03721875,"end":5090.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5090.054093750001,"end":5091.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5091.4715937500005,"end":5091.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5091.505343750001,"end":5091.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5091.977843750001,"end":5095.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5092.635968750001,"end":5094.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5095.0322187500005,"end":5095.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5095.859093749999,"end":5096.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5096.97284375,"end":5097.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5097.175343750001,"end":5097.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5097.24284375,"end":5100.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5097.276593750001,"end":5097.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5097.34409375,"end":5122.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5102.77784375,"end":5102.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5106.11909375,"end":5107.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5114.96159375,"end":5119.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5122.8084687499995,"end":5125.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5122.825343750001,"end":5132.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5132.747843749999,"end":5133.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5133.25409375,"end":5133.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5133.321593750001,"end":5134.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5134.722218750001,"end":5134.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5134.857218749999,"end":5135.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5135.59971875,"end":5137.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5137.388468749999,"end":5137.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5137.4559687500005,"end":5137.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5137.65846875,"end":5137.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5137.79346875,"end":5137.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5137.962218750001,"end":5150.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5150.60159375,"end":5152.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5153.03159375,"end":5169.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5156.524718750001,"end":5158.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5169.80534375,"end":5170.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5170.530968749999,"end":5170.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5171.155343750001,"end":5172.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5172.420968750001,"end":5200.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5179.019093750001,"end":5180.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5181.0272187499995,"end":5181.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5182.950968749999,"end":5186.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5189.49846875,"end":5190.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5191.725968750001,"end":5195.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5196.872843749999,"end":5200.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5200.80471875,"end":5202.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5200.93971875,"end":5207.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5203.47096875,"end":5203.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5204.466593749999,"end":5204.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5204.97284375,"end":5205.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5205.040343750001,"end":5207.048468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5207.08221875,"end":5207.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5207.97659375,"end":5209.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5211.317843750001,"end":5214.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5211.975968750001,"end":5212.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5214.794093750001,"end":5216.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5216.22846875,"end":5221.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5217.91596875,"end":5218.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5222.26971875,"end":5222.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5222.708468750001,"end":5223.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5222.96159375,"end":5223.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5223.872843749999,"end":5223.923468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5223.923468749999,"end":5239.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5240.22471875,"end":5248.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5248.864718750001,"end":5263.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5249.55659375,"end":5250.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5251.64909375,"end":5252.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5260.37346875,"end":5260.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5260.47471875,"end":5260.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5260.913468750001,"end":5260.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5263.022843750001,"end":5266.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5266.718468749999,"end":5278.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5268.034718750001,"end":5269.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5279.03721875,"end":5280.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5279.12159375,"end":5280.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5280.690968750001,"end":5285.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5284.4540937500005,"end":5289.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5289.9384687500005,"end":5295.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5296.5028437500005,"end":5297.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5297.093468749999,"end":5302.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5299.52346875,"end":5301.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5303.202218750001,"end":5307.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5307.404093749999,"end":5310.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5310.76221875,"end":5311.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5311.08284375,"end":5321.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5321.612843750001,"end":5324.937218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5324.937218749999,"end":5336.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5334.80909375,"end":5335.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5336.02409375,"end":5336.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5336.83409375,"end":5336.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5336.952218750001,"end":5337.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5337.30659375,"end":5337.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5337.323468750001,"end":5337.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5337.357218749999,"end":5342.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5341.37346875,"end":5342.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5342.53784375,"end":5345.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5346.081593750001,"end":5347.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5347.499093750001,"end":5349.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5349.86159375,"end":5349.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5349.91221875,"end":5349.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5349.94596875,"end":5350.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5350.030343750001,"end":5350.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5350.215968750001,"end":5353.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5353.776593750001,"end":5355.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5355.227843750001,"end":5357.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5357.2528437500005,"end":5360.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5360.189093749999,"end":5360.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5360.560343749999,"end":5360.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5360.577218750001,"end":5360.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5360.59409375,"end":5362.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5362.70346875,"end":5364.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5364.745343750001,"end":5365.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5365.74096875,"end":5366.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5367.44534375,"end":5367.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5368.575968749999,"end":5393.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5372.30534375,"end":5372.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5394.124718749999,"end":5399.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5399.77784375,"end":5401.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5401.1278437500005,"end":5401.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5401.88721875,"end":5402.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5402.03909375,"end":5403.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5403.878468750001,"end":5405.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5406.780968749999,"end":5410.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5410.544093750001,"end":5412.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5412.889718750001,"end":5414.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5423.77409375,"end":5425.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5434.5740937499995,"end":5436.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":5437.79721875,"end":5438.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5445.34034375,"end":5446.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5446.825343750001,"end":5448.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5447.77034375,"end":5462.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5453.811593750001,"end":5454.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5462.08034375,"end":5462.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5462.13096875,"end":5462.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5462.384093750001,"end":5492.235968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5479.41096875,"end":5479.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5479.967843750001,"end":5481.689093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5485.6884687500005,"end":5486.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5488.2197187500005,"end":5488.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5488.725968750001,"end":5488.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5491.5947187500005,"end":5492.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5492.235968749999,"end":5492.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5492.32034375,"end":5510.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5510.5115937499995,"end":5510.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5510.69721875,"end":5581.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5551.214093750001,"end":5551.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5551.534718750001,"end":5551.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5551.97346875,"end":5552.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5567.245343750001,"end":5567.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5580.67784375,"end":5580.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5581.47096875,"end":5581.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5581.75784375,"end":5608.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5608.09971875,"end":5608.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5608.31909375,"end":5620.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5621.751593749999,"end":5628.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5628.9403437500005,"end":5635.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5635.36971875,"end":5635.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5635.403468750001,"end":5635.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5635.97721875,"end":5643.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5641.529093749999,"end":5641.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5643.52034375,"end":5643.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5643.8915937500005,"end":5648.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5646.72659375,"end":5653.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5648.515343749999,"end":5649.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5650.75971875,"end":5662.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5653.27409375,"end":5653.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5654.21909375,"end":5654.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5656.59846875,"end":5666.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5666.622218750001,"end":5667.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5667.415343750001,"end":5668.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5668.79909375,"end":5669.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5669.997218750001,"end":5670.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5670.43596875,"end":5671.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5674.1990937499995,"end":5678.468468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5674.51971875,"end":5674.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5678.670968750001,"end":5682.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5681.59034375,"end":5689.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5684.290343750001,"end":5684.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5687.985968749999,"end":5688.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5689.0322187500005,"end":5696.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5690.702843749999,"end":5691.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5696.845343749999,"end":5697.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5697.081593750001,"end":5697.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5697.132218750001,"end":5708.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5707.999718749999,"end":5708.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5708.91096875,"end":5726.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5726.190968750001,"end":5727.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5726.342843750001,"end":5726.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5727.28784375,"end":5740.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5735.809718750001,"end":5736.180968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5736.180968750001,"end":5736.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5740.770968750001,"end":5741.564093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5741.73284375,"end":5742.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5742.23909375,"end":5744.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5744.60159375,"end":5745.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5745.52971875,"end":5746.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5746.87971875,"end":5746.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5746.913468750001,"end":5747.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5747.03159375,"end":5747.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5747.200343750001,"end":5747.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5747.74034375,"end":5748.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5749.2928437499995,"end":5750.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5750.423468749999,"end":5750.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5751.2840937500005,"end":5752.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5752.93784375,"end":5754.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5755.36784375,"end":5762.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5762.809718750001,"end":5764.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5765.02034375,"end":5772.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5773.08659375,"end":5784.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5785.5740937499995,"end":5787.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5787.58221875,"end":5788.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5788.8309687500005,"end":5789.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5789.77596875,"end":5792.610968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5792.49284375,"end":5792.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5792.610968749999,"end":5792.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5793.11721875,"end":5807.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5807.5790937500005,"end":5807.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5807.88284375,"end":5818.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5818.32846875,"end":5818.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5818.61534375,"end":5820.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5820.2353437500005,"end":5820.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5820.91034375,"end":5822.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5823.407843750001,"end":5824.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5824.28534375,"end":5824.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5825.73659375,"end":5825.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5825.82096875,"end":5825.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5825.83784375,"end":5828.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5828.892218750001,"end":5829.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5829.95534375,"end":5829.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5830.42784375,"end":5838.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5838.460343750001,"end":5842.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5839.4559687500005,"end":5846.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5842.341593749999,"end":5843.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5846.610968750001,"end":5847.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5847.5897187499995,"end":5847.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5847.842843750001,"end":5852.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5852.31471875,"end":5852.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5852.55096875,"end":5861.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5861.69721875,"end":5868.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5868.734093749999,"end":5868.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5868.885968750001,"end":5868.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5868.970343750001,"end":5869.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5869.020968750001,"end":5869.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5869.05471875,"end":5869.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5869.18971875,"end":5869.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5869.29096875,"end":5883.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5878.0322187500005,"end":5878.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5882.45346875,"end":5896.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5885.5584687499995,"end":5887.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5887.397843750001,"end":5888.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5888.3934687500005,"end":5888.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5896.79721875,"end":5896.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5896.98284375,"end":5897.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5897.03346875,"end":5899.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5899.37909375,"end":5899.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5899.7840937500005,"end":5904.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5904.01971875,"end":5904.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5904.036593750001,"end":5907.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5908.592843750001,"end":5908.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5908.626593750001,"end":5908.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5908.727843750001,"end":5909.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5909.099093750001,"end":5909.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5909.21721875,"end":5909.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5909.2509687500005,"end":5914.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5909.63909375,"end":5911.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5914.27971875,"end":5914.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5914.60034375,"end":5935.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5924.286593750001,"end":5924.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5925.180968750001,"end":5925.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5926.61534375,"end":5926.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5934.884093750001,"end":5948.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5945.21159375,"end":5949.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5949.19409375,"end":5949.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5949.53159375,"end":5949.548468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5949.970343750001,"end":5955.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5956.14659375,"end":5963.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5963.706593750001,"end":5974.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5974.0340937500005,"end":5975.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5974.253468750001,"end":5975.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5975.333468750001,"end":5975.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5975.40096875,"end":5975.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5975.53596875,"end":5982.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5976.48096875,"end":5976.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5981.45909375,"end":5984.985968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5984.614718750001,"end":5987.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5987.753468750001,"end":5987.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5987.97284375,"end":5989.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5989.913468750001,"end":5989.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5989.964093750001,"end":5990.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5990.048468750001,"end":5995.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5991.0947187500005,"end":5991.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5992.47846875,"end":5992.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5995.00971875,"end":6029.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5998.33409375,"end":5998.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5998.36784375,"end":5998.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5998.41846875,"end":5998.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6005.53971875,"end":6005.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6012.745343750001,"end":6012.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6012.81284375,"end":6013.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6013.065968750001,"end":6013.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6013.84221875,"end":6013.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6013.8759687500005,"end":6015.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6015.19221875,"end":6015.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6030.2615937499995,"end":6035.796593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6035.96534375,"end":6073.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6046.7822187500005,"end":6047.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6074.187218749999,"end":6075.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6075.739718750001,"end":6076.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6076.347218750001,"end":6078.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6076.36409375,"end":6085.729718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6086.45534375,"end":6092.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6092.935343749999,"end":6093.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6093.20534375,"end":6108.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6093.30659375,"end":6093.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6100.32659375,"end":6100.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6103.78596875,"end":6104.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6108.696593750001,"end":6113.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6112.341593749999,"end":6138.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6120.087218750001,"end":6120.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6122.21346875,"end":6123.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6123.02346875,"end":6123.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6123.05721875,"end":6123.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6123.090968750001,"end":6123.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6123.24284375,"end":6123.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6123.44534375,"end":6124.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6125.0653437500005,"end":6125.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6125.45346875,"end":6125.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6125.53784375,"end":6125.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6125.942843750001,"end":6126.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6130.65096875,"end":6132.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6132.169718749999,"end":6132.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6138.700343750001,"end":6140.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6140.40471875,"end":6154.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6141.923468750001,"end":6142.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6150.749093750001,"end":6150.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6150.81659375,"end":6152.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6152.099093750001,"end":6152.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6152.11596875,"end":6152.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6152.58846875,"end":6152.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6152.63909375,"end":6154.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6154.444718750001,"end":6161.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6154.79909375,"end":6154.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6155.27159375,"end":6156.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6158.5790937500005,"end":6163.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6161.41409375,"end":6161.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6161.481593750001,"end":6161.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6163.55721875,"end":6163.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6163.5740937499995,"end":6163.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6163.911593750001,"end":6163.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6163.92846875,"end":6164.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6164.45159375,"end":6164.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6164.53596875,"end":6164.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6164.97471875,"end":6165.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6165.649718750001,"end":6167.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6167.4384687500005,"end":6169.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6170.189093750001,"end":6171.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6177.175343750001,"end":6180.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6179.841593749999,"end":6180.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6180.0947187500005,"end":6180.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6180.179093750001,"end":6180.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6180.229718750001,"end":6180.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6185.64659375,"end":6186.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6186.43971875,"end":6187.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6187.874093750001,"end":6203.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6190.9959687499995,"end":6192.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6203.87159375,"end":6214.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6215.1103437500005,"end":6215.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6216.05534375,"end":6217.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6217.9959687499995,"end":6220.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6220.98284375,"end":6221.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6221.32034375,"end":6222.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6222.90659375,"end":6235.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6233.6053437499995,"end":6233.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6233.993468750001,"end":6234.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6234.0272187499995,"end":6234.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6236.08596875,"end":6250.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6250.952843749999,"end":6253.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6253.585343750001,"end":6256.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6256.70721875,"end":6262.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6262.680968750001,"end":6281.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6263.08596875,"end":6264.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6270.122843749999,"end":6270.173468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6270.173468750001,"end":6270.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6270.510968750001,"end":6270.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6277.85159375,"end":6277.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6277.9022187499995,"end":6287.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6287.45346875,"end":6291.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6288.550343750001,"end":6292.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6292.060343749999,"end":6294.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6294.99659375,"end":6296.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6296.07659375,"end":6297.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6296.12721875,"end":6297.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6297.966593749999,"end":6302.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6301.307843750001,"end":6309.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6307.669718749999,"end":6307.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6307.872218750001,"end":6308.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6310.42034375,"end":6313.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6313.727843750001,"end":6326.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6315.85409375,"end":6315.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6321.8447187500005,"end":6322.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6327.649718750001,"end":6336.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6336.694718750001,"end":6399.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6352.55721875,"end":6352.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6352.624718749999,"end":6352.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6352.827218750001,"end":6353.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6400.7353437500005,"end":6405.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6405.7978437500005,"end":6409.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6410.96159375,"end":6416.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6413.25659375,"end":6428.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6429.20346875,"end":6433.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6434.53596875,"end":6438.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6438.9403437500005,"end":6440.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6440.03721875,"end":6440.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6440.374718749999,"end":6440.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6440.67846875,"end":6476.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6446.196593750001,"end":6447.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6447.327218750001,"end":6447.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6448.37346875,"end":6448.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6448.964093750001,"end":6449.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6451.495343750001,"end":6451.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6451.529093749999,"end":6453.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6453.53721875,"end":6453.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6455.1572187500005,"end":6456.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6457.857218749999,"end":6458.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6458.059718750001,"end":6458.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6462.362843750001,"end":6462.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6470.3447187500005,"end":6470.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6475.390343749999,"end":6482.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6482.849093750001,"end":6486.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6482.899718750001,"end":6483.642218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6486.34221875,"end":6490.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6488.78909375,"end":6493.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6491.82659375,"end":6500.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6496.0790937500005,"end":6498.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6500.702843749999,"end":6504.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6505.32659375,"end":6512.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6511.33409375,"end":6536.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6513.7303437499995,"end":6514.202843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6520.9697187500005,"end":6522.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6530.2509687500005,"end":6530.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6534.16596875,"end":6534.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6535.78596875,"end":6537.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6537.47346875,"end":6573.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6540.595343750001,"end":6540.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6541.94534375,"end":6543.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6543.9872187500005,"end":6544.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6573.5184687500005,"end":6575.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6575.712218750001,"end":6606.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6605.108468750001,"end":6616.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6607.94346875,"end":6608.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6617.02221875,"end":6641.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6640.579718750001,"end":6643.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6643.499093750001,"end":6643.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6644.190968750001,"end":6652.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6649.08471875,"end":6686.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6660.86346875,"end":6661.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6670.397843750001,"end":6670.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6686.715968750001,"end":6716.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6689.92221875,"end":6690.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6708.80534375,"end":6709.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6715.75784375,"end":6719.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6720.314093750001,"end":6720.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6720.364718750001,"end":6720.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6720.63471875,"end":6720.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6720.9384687500005,"end":6720.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6720.972218750001,"end":6721.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6721.073468750001,"end":6721.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6721.14096875,"end":6721.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6721.22534375,"end":6737.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6721.630343750001,"end":6724.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6737.54346875,"end":6750.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6751.026593750001,"end":6753.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6752.02221875,"end":6752.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6753.034718750001,"end":6767.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6754.5028437500005,"end":6756.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6757.0340937500005,"end":6758.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6759.00846875,"end":6760.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6764.88096875,"end":6769.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6768.357218749999,"end":6779.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6779.54534375,"end":6779.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6779.562218749999,"end":6806.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6780.43971875,"end":6782.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6789.95721875,"end":6790.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6791.054093750001,"end":6791.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6791.3240937499995,"end":6791.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6806.1572187500005,"end":6814.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6811.92846875,"end":6820.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6820.97346875,"end":6838.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6833.64659375,"end":6833.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6836.0428437499995,"end":6836.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6836.1103437500005,"end":6836.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6836.16096875,"end":6837.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6837.325343750001,"end":6838.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6838.354718750001,"end":6838.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6838.911593750001,"end":6843.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6854.807843750001,"end":6856.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6857.1365937499995,"end":6857.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6858.43596875,"end":6858.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6858.452843749999,"end":6858.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6863.44784375,"end":6863.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6863.481593750001,"end":6864.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6864.25784375,"end":6864.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6864.39284375,"end":6864.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6864.71346875,"end":6927.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6870.737843750001,"end":6871.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6895.69596875,"end":6895.729718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6895.729718750001,"end":6896.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6896.13471875,"end":6896.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6901.75409375,"end":6901.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6901.770968750001,"end":6901.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6901.821593750001,"end":6901.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6908.470343750001,"end":6908.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6908.55471875,"end":6908.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6908.68971875,"end":6908.892218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6927.842843750001,"end":6928.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6928.7372187500005,"end":6968.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6942.05159375,"end":6942.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6942.085343750001,"end":6942.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6942.186593750001,"end":6942.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6942.20346875,"end":6942.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6942.30471875,"end":6942.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6950.03346875,"end":6950.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6968.12346875,"end":6971.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6971.73471875,"end":6978.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6979.1259687500005,"end":6983.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6983.96909375,"end":6986.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6986.618468750001,"end":6987.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6987.9178437499995,"end":6989.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6989.385968750001,"end":6995.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6995.22471875,"end":6995.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6995.427218750001,"end":6995.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6995.5115937499995,"end":6995.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6995.562218750001,"end":6995.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6995.612843750001,"end":6997.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6997.637843750001,"end":7010.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7010.83409375,"end":7012.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7012.302218750001,"end":7014.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7013.83784375,"end":7019.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7018.208468750001,"end":7034.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7035.876593750001,"end":7039.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7036.75409375,"end":7045.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7044.56721875,"end":7045.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7046.22096875,"end":7047.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7047.67221875,"end":7054.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7055.02971875,"end":7055.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7057.18971875,"end":7062.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7062.99471875,"end":7065.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7065.930968750001,"end":7070.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7070.6053437499995,"end":7071.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7071.600968750001,"end":7071.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7071.63471875,"end":7126.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7072.579718750001,"end":7072.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7076.41034375,"end":7077.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7118.192843750001,"end":7118.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7118.63159375,"end":7118.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7125.0272187499995,"end":7125.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7126.27596875,"end":7126.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7126.394093750001,"end":7157.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7157.44409375,"end":7158.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7158.405968750001,"end":7163.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7163.097218750001,"end":7163.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7163.4178437499995,"end":7169.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7169.3915937500005,"end":7173.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7173.44159375,"end":7173.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7173.795968750001,"end":7177.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7177.542218750001,"end":7179.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7179.685343749999,"end":7180.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7180.967843750001,"end":7183.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7183.482218749999,"end":7183.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7183.634093750001,"end":7185.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7185.15284375,"end":7186.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7185.89534375,"end":7189.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7189.2197187500005,"end":7190.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7190.2997187500005,"end":7193.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7192.98284375,"end":7193.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7193.82659375,"end":7194.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7195.0584687499995,"end":7198.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7196.83034375,"end":7200.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7200.86346875,"end":7209.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7208.237843750001,"end":7211.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7210.347218750001,"end":7221.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7222.46346875,"end":7234.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7234.22534375,"end":7240.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7240.28346875,"end":7247.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7247.100968750001,"end":7251.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7250.88096875,"end":7251.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7251.640343750001,"end":7251.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7251.67409375,"end":7251.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7251.977843750001,"end":7289.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7255.116593750001,"end":7255.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7287.76971875,"end":7326.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7307.63159375,"end":7307.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7307.64846875,"end":7307.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7307.7665937500005,"end":7308.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7308.036593750001,"end":7308.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7309.774718750001,"end":7312.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7312.592843750001,"end":7312.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7326.05909375,"end":7326.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7326.85221875,"end":7326.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7326.885968750001,"end":7333.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7333.686593750001,"end":7346.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7346.950343750001,"end":7362.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7352.82284375,"end":7353.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7362.67784375,"end":7364.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7364.82096875,"end":7381.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7380.548468750001,"end":7390.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7390.99409375,"end":7391.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7391.02784375,"end":7394.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7392.19221875,"end":7401.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7401.70971875,"end":7408.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7407.58221875,"end":7412.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7412.25659375,"end":7418.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7416.62721875,"end":7416.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7416.644093750001,"end":7417.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7417.8084687499995,"end":7417.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7418.97284375,"end":7420.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7419.19221875,"end":7426.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7420.27221875,"end":7420.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7426.583468750001,"end":7430.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7429.14846875,"end":7446.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7444.015343750001,"end":7464.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7446.698468750001,"end":7447.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7447.8290937500005,"end":7448.470343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7458.00471875,"end":7459.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7462.88159375,"end":7463.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7463.4384687500005,"end":7463.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7464.95721875,"end":7486.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7470.272843750001,"end":7470.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7486.47284375,"end":7498.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7498.0322187500005,"end":7503.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7502.234093750001,"end":7503.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7503.66846875,"end":7506.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7506.503468750001,"end":7506.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7506.53721875,"end":7506.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7506.85784375,"end":7506.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7506.95909375,"end":7513.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7507.85346875,"end":7508.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7512.780968750001,"end":7512.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7512.7978437500005,"end":7513.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7513.489718750001,"end":7513.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7513.6415937500005,"end":7513.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7513.725968750001,"end":7513.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7513.75971875,"end":7518.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7519.75034375,"end":7523.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7523.7665937500005,"end":7526.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7527.02346875,"end":7530.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7529.58846875,"end":7533.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7530.0272187499995,"end":7546.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7539.39284375,"end":7541.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7546.75034375,"end":7558.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7549.04534375,"end":7549.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7549.19721875,"end":7550.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7550.73284375,"end":7550.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7558.19159375,"end":7564.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7558.7147187499995,"end":7560.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7564.350968750001,"end":7573.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7568.78909375,"end":7569.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7570.307843750001,"end":7571.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7573.767218750001,"end":7577.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7577.513468749999,"end":7584.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7585.7147187499995,"end":7585.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7585.74846875,"end":7586.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7586.59221875,"end":7586.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7586.6259687500005,"end":7586.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7586.659718750001,"end":7586.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7586.74409375,"end":7586.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7586.811593750001,"end":7586.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7586.91284375,"end":7586.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7586.946593750001,"end":7586.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7586.96346875,"end":7586.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7586.9803437499995,"end":7588.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7587.01409375,"end":7590.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7590.321593750001,"end":7611.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7592.44784375,"end":7592.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7592.4647187499995,"end":7592.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7592.65034375,"end":7592.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7592.83596875,"end":7594.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7595.60346875,"end":7596.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7611.82034375,"end":7620.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7619.667218750001,"end":7620.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7620.747218750001,"end":7625.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7620.780968750001,"end":7621.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7621.0340937500005,"end":7624.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7624.24034375,"end":7626.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7628.67846875,"end":7632.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7642.51596875,"end":7647.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7647.62909375,"end":7650.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7650.10971875,"end":7651.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7650.95346875,"end":7652.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7652.421593750001,"end":7652.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7652.77596875,"end":7655.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7652.843468750001,"end":7653.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7656.269093750001,"end":7658.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7659.52596875,"end":7660.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7659.76221875,"end":7659.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7660.13346875,"end":7660.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7660.70721875,"end":7660.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7660.74096875,"end":7664.892218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7665.3309687500005,"end":7666.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7666.343468750001,"end":7668.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7668.655343750001,"end":7669.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7669.41471875,"end":7671.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7673.31284375,"end":7674.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7674.510968750001,"end":7688.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7676.384093750001,"end":7676.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7676.4178437499995,"end":7676.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7687.42034375,"end":7690.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7689.20909375,"end":7694.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7692.66846875,"end":7696.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7696.954718750001,"end":7698.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7698.456593750001,"end":7709.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7706.624093750001,"end":7711.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7712.22659375,"end":7725.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7718.470343750001,"end":7719.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7721.102843750001,"end":7721.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7721.11971875,"end":7723.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7723.9715937500005,"end":7725.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7725.38909375,"end":7728.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7728.67971875,"end":7731.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7732.965968750001,"end":7737.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7734.231593750001,"end":7734.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7739.091593749999,"end":7740.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7739.26034375,"end":7739.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7739.378468750001,"end":7740.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7740.1884687500005,"end":7740.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7740.20534375,"end":7740.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7741.13346875,"end":7751.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7741.960343750001,"end":7742.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7743.175343750001,"end":7743.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7743.20909375,"end":7743.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7743.225968750001,"end":7744.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7744.440968750001,"end":7744.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7745.234093750001,"end":7745.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7745.335343750001,"end":7745.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7746.01034375,"end":7747.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7748.187218750001,"end":7748.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7748.22096875,"end":7755.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7756.10159375,"end":7758.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7758.85221875,"end":7764.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7764.72471875,"end":7765.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7765.12971875,"end":7776.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7771.32284375,"end":7772.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7772.655968750001,"end":7772.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7775.11971875,"end":7775.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7775.1365937499995,"end":7778.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7778.20784375,"end":7783.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7781.02596875,"end":7781.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7783.017218750001,"end":7784.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7784.991593750001,"end":7798.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7785.042218750001,"end":7785.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7786.122218750001,"end":7786.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7798.69409375,"end":7798.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7798.7615937499995,"end":7810.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7810.50659375,"end":7812.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7813.24034375,"end":7816.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7816.716593749999,"end":7820.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7820.513468749999,"end":7822.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7822.28534375,"end":7822.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7822.31909375,"end":7822.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7822.673468750001,"end":7824.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7825.120343750001,"end":7829.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7829.710343750001,"end":7830.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7830.19971875,"end":7835.751593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7836.20721875,"end":7836.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7837.1522187499995,"end":7838.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7838.53596875,"end":7839.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7839.970343750001,"end":7840.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7840.71284375,"end":7844.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7844.25659375,"end":7844.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7844.69534375,"end":7845.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7845.85971875,"end":7846.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7847.108468750001,"end":7847.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7847.20971875,"end":7848.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7848.66096875,"end":7851.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7851.1415937500005,"end":7851.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7851.411593750001,"end":7852.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7853.0653437500005,"end":7853.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7853.13284375,"end":7856.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7856.474093750001,"end":7856.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7856.92971875,"end":7858.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7859.292218750001,"end":7861.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7861.60409375,"end":7863.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7863.831593750001,"end":7883.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7883.9803437499995,"end":7884.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7885.262843750001,"end":7886.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7886.86596875,"end":7887.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7888.18221875,"end":7890.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7890.34221875,"end":7891.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7892.11409375,"end":7893.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7893.784718750001,"end":7896.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7896.34971875,"end":7896.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7896.67034375,"end":7898.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7898.96534375,"end":7899.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7899.083468750001,"end":7899.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7899.30284375,"end":7904.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7904.73659375,"end":7908.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7910.27159375,"end":7910.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7912.04346875,"end":7914.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7913.427218750001,"end":7918.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7915.013468749999,"end":7915.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7918.017218750001,"end":7918.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7918.405343750001,"end":7923.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7918.4559687500005,"end":7918.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7923.33284375,"end":7923.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7923.552218750001,"end":7925.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7925.8134687500005,"end":7926.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7926.083468750001,"end":7932.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7932.968468750001,"end":7937.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7937.91284375,"end":7938.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7938.35159375,"end":7941.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7941.28784375,"end":7942.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7942.80659375,"end":7959.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7959.934718750001,"end":7960.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7960.71096875,"end":7961.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7961.858468750001,"end":7962.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7962.98909375,"end":7964.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7965.11534375,"end":7967.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7967.1572187500005,"end":7968.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7969.5028437500005,"end":7971.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7970.616593750001,"end":7971.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7971.359093750001,"end":7971.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7971.52784375,"end":7979.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7980.1678437499995,"end":7980.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7980.370343750001,"end":7994.376593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7987.356593750001,"end":7987.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7987.37346875,"end":7987.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7987.390343750001,"end":7988.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7988.97659375,"end":7989.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7994.96721875,"end":7995.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7995.456593750001,"end":7995.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7995.49034375,"end":7998.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7996.300343750001,"end":7996.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7997.515343750001,"end":8012.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7998.71346875,"end":7998.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7999.05096875,"end":7999.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7999.354718750001,"end":8001.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8011.8084687499995,"end":8016.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8013.782843750001,"end":8020.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8020.00971875,"end":8022.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8022.96284375,"end":8032.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8023.04721875,"end":8026.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8031.06284375,"end":8042.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8041.05284375,"end":8041.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8041.60971875,"end":8041.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8042.234093750001,"end":8042.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8042.2509687500005,"end":8042.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8042.30159375,"end":8042.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8042.53784375,"end":8043.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8042.55471875,"end":8043.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8044.03971875,"end":8051.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8052.831593750001,"end":8058.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8056.29096875,"end":8071.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8059.14284375,"end":8061.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8065.70721875,"end":8065.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8065.724093750001,"end":8065.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8072.001593750001,"end":8072.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8072.96346875,"end":8075.899718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8076.270968750001,"end":8078.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8078.751593750001,"end":8079.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8079.7978437500005,"end":8081.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8081.18159375,"end":8081.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8082.29534375,"end":8083.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8083.5272187499995,"end":8084.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8084.55659375,"end":8085.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8086.446593750001,"end":8088.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8089.78784375,"end":8092.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8090.850968750001,"end":8094.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8094.1415937500005,"end":8094.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8094.19221875,"end":8096.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8097.66846875,"end":8097.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8097.9384687500005,"end":8099.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8098.24221875,"end":8098.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8098.2928437499995,"end":8098.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8098.309718750001,"end":8099.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8099.03534375,"end":8102.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8099.474093750001,"end":8099.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8100.7059687500005,"end":8104.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8102.562218750001,"end":8103.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8104.31721875,"end":8104.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8104.350968750001,"end":8107.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8106.139718750001,"end":8106.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8106.3759687500005,"end":8112.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8113.27784375,"end":8114.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8114.7459687499995,"end":8116.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8117.17596875,"end":8121.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8121.02346875,"end":8125.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8125.630343750001,"end":8132.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8132.97096875,"end":8134.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8135.16471875,"end":8143.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8144.3447187500005,"end":8146.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8146.94346875,"end":8150.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8151.685343750001,"end":8152.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8152.09034375,"end":8152.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8152.32659375,"end":8152.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8152.88346875,"end":8152.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8152.90034375,"end":8154.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8154.975968750001,"end":8155.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8155.212218750001,"end":8161.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8161.962218750001,"end":8162.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8162.670968750001,"end":8162.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8163.00846875,"end":8163.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8163.02534375,"end":8164.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8164.763468750001,"end":8166.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8167.37909375,"end":8171.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8171.36159375,"end":8177.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8177.03159375,"end":8177.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8177.6053437499995,"end":8191.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8187.34221875,"end":8187.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8190.9872187500005,"end":8191.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8191.89846875,"end":8192.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8192.860343750002,"end":8192.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8192.94471875,"end":8198.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8199.289718750002,"end":8201.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8200.234718750002,"end":8200.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8201.601593750001,"end":8201.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8201.93909375,"end":8204.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8205.246593750002,"end":8213.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8213.97096875,"end":8216.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8216.265968750002,"end":8219.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8219.691593750002,"end":8221.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8221.73346875,"end":8223.134093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8223.35346875,"end":8224.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8224.821593749999,"end":8226.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8226.67784375,"end":8227.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8228.247218750003,"end":8231.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8231.723468750002,"end":8233.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8233.42784375,"end":8236.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8236.85346875,"end":8238.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8238.675968750002,"end":8240.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8241.03846875,"end":8242.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8242.91159375,"end":8243.805968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8243.97471875,"end":8249.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8249.52659375,"end":8250.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8251.855343750001,"end":8254.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8255.331593750001,"end":8256.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8257.305968749999,"end":8258.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8259.195968750002,"end":8262.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8262.503468750001,"end":8263.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8264.27534375,"end":8264.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8264.81534375,"end":8266.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8266.80659375,"end":8267.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8267.75159375,"end":8269.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8270.35034375,"end":8273.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8273.860343750002,"end":8275.868468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8277.657218750002,"end":8282.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8280.40784375,"end":8280.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8282.88846875,"end":8283.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8283.968468750001,"end":8287.259093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8287.47846875,"end":8289.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8289.942218750002,"end":8290.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8291.32596875,"end":8293.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8294.38034375,"end":8295.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8295.949718750002,"end":8297.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8297.24909375,"end":8299.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8299.81409375,"end":8300.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8300.65784375,"end":8304.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8305.500968750002,"end":8310.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8311.086593750002,"end":8311.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8311.305968750003,"end":8314.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8314.815968750001,"end":8315.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8315.27159375,"end":8322.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8322.17346875,"end":8324.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8324.75534375,"end":8325.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8325.17721875,"end":8327.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8327.219093750002,"end":8327.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8328.164093750001,"end":8328.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8328.737843750001,"end":8328.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8328.754718750002,"end":8328.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8328.77159375,"end":8329.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8329.68284375,"end":8329.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8329.699718750002,"end":8333.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8332.602218750002,"end":8334.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8333.95221875,"end":8335.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8334.69471875,"end":8334.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8334.762218750002,"end":8335.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8335.032218750002,"end":8335.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8335.875968750002,"end":8341.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8341.86659375,"end":8342.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8343.23346875,"end":8345.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8351.97471875,"end":8357.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8363.16284375,"end":8363.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8363.247218750003,"end":8363.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8363.348468750002,"end":8363.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8363.48346875,"end":8363.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8363.601593750001,"end":8363.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8363.719718750002,"end":8363.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8363.820968750002,"end":8363.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8364.37784375,"end":8367.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8364.42846875,"end":8364.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8364.445343750001,"end":8365.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8368.42784375,"end":8379.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8374.35096875,"end":8374.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8380.13909375,"end":8384.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8384.813468750002,"end":8386.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8387.226593750001,"end":8394.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8397.21659375,"end":8400.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8400.70971875,"end":8405.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8405.485343750002,"end":8405.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8405.907218750002,"end":8412.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8412.606593750003,"end":8414.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8415.32346875,"end":8421.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8419.440968750001,"end":8419.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8419.559093750002,"end":8420.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8420.09909375,"end":8420.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8422.27596875,"end":8429.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8429.886593750001,"end":8449.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8430.03846875,"end":8430.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8430.055343750002,"end":8430.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8430.12284375,"end":8430.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8449.32659375,"end":8455.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8454.102218750002,"end":8454.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8454.54096875,"end":8454.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8455.148468750001,"end":8455.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8455.570343750001,"end":8461.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8459.72159375,"end":8460.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8461.577843750001,"end":8477.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8468.09159375,"end":8468.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8468.10846875,"end":8468.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8468.445968750002,"end":8468.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8468.496593750002,"end":8468.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8470.63971875,"end":8471.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8471.297843750002,"end":8471.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8473.79534375,"end":8474.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8477.659718750001,"end":8478.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8479.17846875,"end":8479.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8479.212218750003,"end":8479.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8479.245968750001,"end":8480.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8479.49909375,"end":8480.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8480.410343750002,"end":8480.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8480.66346875,"end":8485.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8480.680343750002,"end":8481.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8481.64221875,"end":8481.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8484.780968750001,"end":8486.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8486.890343750001,"end":8490.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8488.797218750002,"end":8491.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8491.075343750003,"end":8495.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8495.969093750002,"end":8496.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8496.239093750002,"end":8499.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8500.49159375,"end":8503.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8504.86221875,"end":8509.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8509.92471875,"end":8514.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8513.535968750002,"end":8520.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8519.695343750001,"end":8524.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8523.660968750002,"end":8529.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8529.465968750003,"end":8532.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8532.80721875,"end":8532.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8532.824093750001,"end":8534.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8534.460968750001,"end":8534.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8534.511593750001,"end":8538.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8537.19471875,"end":8540.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8540.24909375,"end":8540.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8540.535968750002,"end":8540.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8540.55284375,"end":8540.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8540.586593750002,"end":8540.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8540.60346875,"end":8540.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8540.856593750003,"end":8551.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8541.59909375,"end":8542.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8551.859093750001,"end":8551.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8552.09534375,"end":8560.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8555.875343750002,"end":8557.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8560.043468750002,"end":8571.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8569.61159375,"end":8570.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8570.050343750001,"end":8570.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8571.02909375,"end":8571.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8571.180968750003,"end":8571.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8571.231593750003,"end":8571.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8571.36659375,"end":8571.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8571.97409375,"end":8572.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8572.26096875,"end":8572.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8572.68284375,"end":8577.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8577.812843750002,"end":8578.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8578.52159375,"end":8578.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8579.06159375,"end":8586.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8585.32221875,"end":8585.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8586.030968750001,"end":8586.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8586.65534375,"end":8586.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8586.891593750002,"end":8589.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8590.55346875,"end":8592.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8593.06784375,"end":8597.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8599.497218750003,"end":8604.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8604.593468750001,"end":8611.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8611.883468750002,"end":8617.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8617.367843750002,"end":8619.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8618.71784375,"end":8620.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8619.797843750002,"end":8621.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8623.13909375,"end":8626.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8627.52659375,"end":8628.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8628.977843750003,"end":8629.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8630.15909375,"end":8632.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8632.20096875,"end":8632.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8633.51721875,"end":8634.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8635.64346875,"end":8659.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8659.58909375,"end":8660.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8661.124718750001,"end":8661.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8661.69846875,"end":8662.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8661.715343750002,"end":8662.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8662.980968750002,"end":8668.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8668.296593750001,"end":8669.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8669.089718750001,"end":8669.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8669.106593750003,"end":8669.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8669.140343750001,"end":8672.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8669.157218750002,"end":8669.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8672.093468750001,"end":8672.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8672.110343750002,"end":8672.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8672.24534375,"end":8674.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8673.527843750002,"end":8674.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8674.03409375,"end":8674.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8674.253468750001,"end":8674.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8674.28721875,"end":8674.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8674.320968750002,"end":8674.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8674.33784375,"end":8674.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8674.60784375,"end":8674.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8674.72596875,"end":8674.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8674.742843750002,"end":8695.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8675.77221875,"end":8675.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8675.789093750001,"end":8677.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8677.39221875,"end":8677.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8677.577843750001,"end":8681.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8696.680343750002,"end":8697.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8697.76034375,"end":8698.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8699.144093750001,"end":8706.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8706.67034375,"end":8719.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8709.117218750001,"end":8709.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8711.78346875,"end":8713.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8713.63971875,"end":8715.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8720.96346875,"end":8727.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8724.321593750003,"end":8725.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8727.64596875,"end":8730.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8731.274093750002,"end":8732.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8733.50159375,"end":8735.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8736.437843750002,"end":8737.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8737.399718750003,"end":8739.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8739.812843750002,"end":8746.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8746.96784375,"end":8755.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8754.257843750001,"end":8754.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8755.523468750001,"end":8761.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8761.71659375,"end":8764.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8764.66971875,"end":8766.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8766.69471875,"end":8768.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8768.53409375,"end":8773.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8773.37721875,"end":8787.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8787.45096875,"end":8797.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8797.62659375,"end":8799.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8799.60096875,"end":8802.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8803.296593750001,"end":8804.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8805.000968750002,"end":8819.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8815.73346875,"end":8816.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8819.715968750003,"end":8827.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8822.027843750002,"end":8822.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8827.461593750002,"end":8831.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8830.49909375,"end":8834.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8833.65471875,"end":8844.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8836.28721875,"end":8836.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8839.628468750001,"end":8839.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8839.72971875,"end":8839.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8839.78034375,"end":8839.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8839.86471875,"end":8839.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8839.949093750001,"end":8840.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8844.809093750002,"end":8847.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8847.15471875,"end":8848.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8849.297843750002,"end":8862.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8862.629093750002,"end":8884.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8881.57971875,"end":8882.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8883.773468750001,"end":8886.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8886.08534375,"end":8893.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8886.50721875,"end":8887.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8893.898468750001,"end":8896.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8896.98659375,"end":8899.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8899.551593750002,"end":8901.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8903.230343750001,"end":8906.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8906.976593750001,"end":8907.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8908.10721875,"end":8909.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8909.59221875,"end":8918.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8911.364093750002,"end":8912.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8915.38034375,"end":8918.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8918.82284375,"end":8918.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8918.907218750002,"end":8918.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8918.99159375,"end":8921.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8919.008468750002,"end":8924.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8922.61971875,"end":8923.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8923.73346875,"end":8924.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8924.965343750002,"end":8925.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8925.134093750003,"end":8928.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8929.57221875,"end":8931.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8931.816593750002,"end":8932.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8932.930343750002,"end":8934.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8933.75721875,"end":8937.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8935.79909375,"end":8935.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8937.722843750002,"end":8937.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8938.414718750002,"end":8939.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8940.422843750002,"end":8941.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8941.469093750002,"end":8942.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8942.211593750002,"end":8942.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8942.80221875,"end":8947.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8947.18971875,"end":8950.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8947.93221875,"end":8948.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8948.60721875,"end":8949.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8950.125968750002,"end":8950.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8950.19346875,"end":8950.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8950.21034375,"end":8950.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8950.24409375,"end":8950.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8950.29471875,"end":8950.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8950.429718750001,"end":8955.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8950.76721875,"end":8952.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8955.25596875,"end":8960.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8960.68971875,"end":8962.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8963.47409375,"end":8964.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8964.97596875,"end":8965.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8965.00971875,"end":8965.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8965.06034375,"end":8966.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8965.347218750001,"end":8965.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8965.718468750001,"end":8967.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8967.92909375,"end":8969.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8971.270343750002,"end":8972.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8972.60346875,"end":8973.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8973.24471875,"end":8974.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8976.19784375,"end":8977.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8977.480343750001,"end":8980.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8979.42096875,"end":8986.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8985.512843750003,"end":8988.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8986.980968750002,"end":8993.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8994.945968750002,"end":8995.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8996.29596875,"end":8996.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8997.325343750003,"end":9000.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9000.86909375,"end":9001.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9001.628468750001,"end":9001.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9002.15159375,"end":9003.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9003.87284375,"end":9004.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9004.851593750001,"end":9007.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9008.95221875,"end":9010.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9009.25596875,"end":9009.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9010.57221875,"end":9010.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9010.62284375,"end":9010.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9010.74096875,"end":9010.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9011.36534375,"end":9011.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9011.399093750002,"end":9012.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9012.15846875,"end":9013.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9012.175343750001,"end":9013.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9013.22159375,"end":9014.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9014.352218750002,"end":9016.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9014.43659375,"end":9015.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9015.48284375,"end":9015.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9016.90034375,"end":9023.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9024.29159375,"end":9038.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9027.953468750002,"end":9028.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9038.348468750002,"end":9043.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9043.91721875,"end":9047.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9044.76096875,"end":9051.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9052.422218750002,"end":9053.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9054.784718750001,"end":9059.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9059.62784375,"end":9063.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9059.98221875,"end":9060.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9061.433468750001,"end":9070.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9070.95096875,"end":9081.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9081.059093750002,"end":9092.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9081.07596875,"end":9081.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9081.329093750002,"end":9081.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9083.77596875,"end":9084.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9088.062218750001,"end":9088.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9088.56846875,"end":9088.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9090.964718750001,"end":9091.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9092.449718750002,"end":9095.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9093.664718750002,"end":9093.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9093.69846875,"end":9093.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9093.765968750002,"end":9093.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9095.031593750002,"end":9100.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9100.81971875,"end":9101.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9103.06409375,"end":9103.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9104.481593750003,"end":9107.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9106.75971875,"end":9107.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9107.67096875,"end":9118.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9107.687843750002,"end":9107.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9109.847843750002,"end":9109.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9111.02909375,"end":9111.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9111.282218750002,"end":9111.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9111.29909375,"end":9111.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9113.796593750001,"end":9115.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9116.58096875,"end":9117.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9117.42471875,"end":9117.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9117.593468750001,"end":9120.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9120.074093750001,"end":9121.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9121.10346875,"end":9121.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9121.15409375,"end":9121.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9121.559093750002,"end":9124.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9125.01846875,"end":9129.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9125.946593750003,"end":9127.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9127.364093750002,"end":9127.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9127.48221875,"end":9127.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9128.950343750003,"end":9131.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9130.87409375,"end":9130.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9130.92471875,"end":9131.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9131.32971875,"end":9131.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9131.363468750002,"end":9131.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9132.02159375,"end":9134.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9136.223468750002,"end":9138.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9139.109093750001,"end":9140.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9140.94846875,"end":9142.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9143.19284375,"end":9144.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9751.75596875,"end":9754.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9755.046593750001,"end":9756.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9757.39221875,"end":9759.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9766.825343750003,"end":9768.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9769.879718750002,"end":9770.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9771.28034375,"end":9771.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9771.415343750003,"end":9771.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9779.97096875,"end":9780.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9780.055343750002,"end":9780.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9780.71346875,"end":9780.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9780.96659375,"end":9792.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9786.34971875,"end":9786.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9793.21784375,"end":9797.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9798.415343750003,"end":9801.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9801.58784375,"end":9802.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9803.44409375,"end":9805.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9805.95846875,"end":9805.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9806.312843750002,"end":9808.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9808.45596875,"end":9814.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9814.919093750003,"end":9818.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9818.56409375,"end":9829.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9829.81971875,"end":9831.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9832.06409375,"end":9880.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9832.722218750001,"end":9833.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9851.031593750002,"end":9851.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9853.17471875,"end":9854.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9857.07284375,"end":9858.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9865.105343750001,"end":9865.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9869.50971875,"end":9870.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9879.16221875,"end":9890.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9889.624718750001,"end":9891.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9890.856593750003,"end":9903.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9891.480968750002,"end":9891.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9892.324718750002,"end":9892.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9898.956593750001,"end":9899.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9899.58096875,"end":9899.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9904.019093750001,"end":9904.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9904.035968750002,"end":9911.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9907.20846875,"end":9907.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9911.039093750001,"end":9935.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9911.64659375,"end":9912.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9912.794093750003,"end":9913.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9915.105968750002,"end":9915.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9915.39284375,"end":9915.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9915.46034375,"end":9915.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9915.51096875,"end":9915.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9915.747218750003,"end":9915.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9918.54846875,"end":9918.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9925.855343750001,"end":9928.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9929.26409375,"end":9929.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9929.297843750002,"end":9929.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9935.89596875,"end":9938.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9939.203468750002,"end":9958.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9948.14721875,"end":9948.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9958.019093750001,"end":9959.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9959.90909375,"end":9959.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9959.94284375,"end":9963.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9961.42784375,"end":9962.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9963.11534375,"end":9976.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9964.094093750002,"end":9964.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9969.004718750002,"end":9969.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9969.19034375,"end":9969.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9976.68284375,"end":9976.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9976.868468750003,"end":9981.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9982.352843750003,"end":9982.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9982.36971875,"end":10001.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9986.352218750002,"end":9987.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9998.063468750002,"end":10001.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10001.370968750001,"end":10002.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10002.02909375,"end":10002.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10002.164093750001,"end":10002.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10002.383468750002,"end":10016.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10015.69784375,"end":10016.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10016.946593750003,"end":10035.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10028.050343750001,"end":10028.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10036.184093750002,"end":10038.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10039.67721875,"end":10040.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10041.26346875,"end":10044.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10043.91284375,"end":10046.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10046.22471875,"end":10055.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10048.75596875,"end":10048.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10050.105968750002,"end":10050.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10056.14721875,"end":10061.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10061.969093750002,"end":10068.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10068.027218750001,"end":10084.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10071.773468750001,"end":10072.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10084.058468750001,"end":10084.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10084.24409375,"end":10090.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10090.977218750002,"end":10098.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10098.38534375,"end":10100.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10099.515968750002,"end":10099.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10099.617218750001,"end":10099.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10099.85346875,"end":10099.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10099.937843750002,"end":10147.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10100.12346875,"end":10100.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10100.39346875,"end":10101.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10105.91159375,"end":10105.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10105.92846875,"end":10106.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10116.32346875,"end":10116.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10116.542843750001,"end":10116.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10118.53409375,"end":10118.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10123.765343750001,"end":10124.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10132.422218750002,"end":10132.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10147.25534375,"end":10147.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10147.67721875,"end":10152.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10152.570968750002,"end":10152.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10152.891593750002,"end":10163.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10163.82659375,"end":10163.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10163.843468750001,"end":10164.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10164.29909375,"end":10164.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10164.40034375,"end":10169.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10170.711593750002,"end":10176.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10176.60096875,"end":10176.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10176.73596875,"end":10178.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10178.33909375,"end":10186.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10186.472843750002,"end":10186.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10187.316593750002,"end":10189.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10189.40909375,"end":10196.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10196.31096875,"end":10201.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10202.31846875,"end":10203.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10203.26346875,"end":10216.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10207.566593750002,"end":10210.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10211.80221875,"end":10212.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10214.097218750001,"end":10215.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10216.13909375,"end":10216.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10216.223468750002,"end":10230.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10219.851593750001,"end":10220.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10220.20596875,"end":10220.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10221.40409375,"end":10221.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10230.17909375,"end":10230.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10230.449093750001,"end":10238.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10238.987843750001,"end":10240.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10240.92846875,"end":10241.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10242.39659375,"end":10262.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10247.40846875,"end":10248.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10262.528468750003,"end":10262.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10262.562218750001,"end":10262.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10262.71409375,"end":10262.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10262.71409375,"end":10266.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10262.74784375,"end":10262.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10266.055343750002,"end":10273.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10272.04596875,"end":10290.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10283.824718750002,"end":10284.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10290.59159375,"end":10292.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10293.578468750002,"end":10295.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10295.97471875,"end":10295.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10295.99159375,"end":10298.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10298.50596875,"end":10307.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10307.21346875,"end":10307.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10307.348468750002,"end":10308.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10307.618468750003,"end":10318.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10318.77284375,"end":10319.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10319.532218750002,"end":10330.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10327.598468750002,"end":10329.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10330.04534375,"end":10339.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10334.85471875,"end":10335.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10336.79534375,"end":10340.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10340.187218750001,"end":10343.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10340.355968750002,"end":10340.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10344.50721875,"end":10344.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10348.01721875,"end":10348.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10348.742843750002,"end":10349.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10350.39659375,"end":10353.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10354.31159375,"end":10359.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10359.762218750002,"end":10364.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10364.94284375,"end":10367.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10367.659718750001,"end":10382.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10371.96284375,"end":10372.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10372.23284375,"end":10372.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10382.543468750002,"end":10383.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10383.30284375,"end":10383.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10384.19721875,"end":10387.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10387.96034375,"end":10388.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10388.972843750002,"end":10397.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10395.97596875,"end":10405.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10399.519718750002,"end":10399.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10405.56096875,"end":10414.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10405.695968750002,"end":10406.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10412.41221875,"end":10422.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10422.942218750002,"end":10426.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10424.781593750002,"end":10424.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10425.000968750002,"end":10426.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10426.620968750001,"end":10428.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10436.847218750001,"end":10439.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10445.11596875,"end":10472.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10447.10721875,"end":10447.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10447.22534375,"end":10447.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10447.360343750002,"end":10447.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10455.81471875,"end":10456.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10462.34534375,"end":10462.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10464.336593750002,"end":10464.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10464.40409375,"end":10464.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10464.67409375,"end":10464.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10473.145343750002,"end":10477.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10477.65096875,"end":10479.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10479.70971875,"end":10489.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10490.23971875,"end":10499.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10499.79096875,"end":10503.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10504.16159375,"end":10504.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10506.726593750001,"end":10511.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10511.14784375,"end":10511.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10512.09284375,"end":10524.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10521.812843750002,"end":10522.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10523.719718750002,"end":10524.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10524.462218750003,"end":10529.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10530.773468750001,"end":10541.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10542.602843750003,"end":10544.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10543.277843750002,"end":10552.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10552.710968750001,"end":10553.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10553.149718750003,"end":10559.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10558.53284375,"end":10559.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10559.089718750001,"end":10592.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10567.054718750001,"end":10567.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10567.071593750003,"end":10567.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10567.51034375,"end":10567.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10578.495968750001,"end":10578.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10578.546593750001,"end":10578.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10578.58034375,"end":10578.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10578.64784375,"end":10578.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10578.69846875,"end":10578.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10592.940968750001,"end":10598.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10599.67409375,"end":10600.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10600.770968750003,"end":10601.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10602.171593750001,"end":10602.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10602.964718750001,"end":10608.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10602.981593750003,"end":10603.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10608.465968750003,"end":10609.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10609.410968750002,"end":10609.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10609.42784375,"end":10610.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10610.879093750002,"end":10614.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10614.16971875,"end":10614.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10615.08096875,"end":10615.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10615.65471875,"end":10632.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10632.85034375,"end":10632.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10634.21721875,"end":10634.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10635.28034375,"end":10651.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10650.214718750001,"end":10661.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10654.028468750003,"end":10654.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10655.31096875,"end":10682.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10662.972218750001,"end":10663.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10670.32971875,"end":10670.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10670.97096875,"end":10671.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10671.61221875,"end":10671.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10682.26034375,"end":10686.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10686.293468750002,"end":10689.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10690.242218750001,"end":10693.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10693.90409375,"end":10699.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10699.844093750002,"end":10699.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10699.86096875,"end":10699.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10699.911593750003,"end":10699.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10699.962218750003,"end":10721.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10721.933468750001,"end":10726.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10724.22846875,"end":10734.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10731.704093750002,"end":10731.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10735.332218750002,"end":10743.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10743.786593750003,"end":10758.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10749.777218750001,"end":10750.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10758.737843750001,"end":10764.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10765.724093750003,"end":10766.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10767.10784375,"end":10767.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10767.968468750001,"end":10768.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10768.035968750002,"end":10768.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10768.59284375,"end":10768.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10768.609718750002,"end":10774.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10774.212218750003,"end":10781.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10781.805968750003,"end":10784.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10784.792843750001,"end":10794.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10794.31034375,"end":10813.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10794.715343750002,"end":10795.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10797.06096875,"end":10799.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10806.105968750002,"end":10806.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10809.649718750003,"end":10810.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10811.08409375,"end":10817.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10813.63221875,"end":10813.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10816.36596875,"end":10820.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10820.46659375,"end":10827.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10826.76096875,"end":10830.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10827.891593750002,"end":10828.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10829.528468750003,"end":10830.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10830.23721875,"end":10830.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10830.28784375,"end":10830.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10830.59159375,"end":10833.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10834.202843750001,"end":10845.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10845.84659375,"end":10846.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10846.58909375,"end":10849.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10850.082218750002,"end":10853.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10854.70596875,"end":10859.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10859.903468750003,"end":10862.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10861.574093750001,"end":10861.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10862.87346875,"end":10867.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10864.61159375,"end":10865.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10867.277843750002,"end":10886.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10872.660968750002,"end":10872.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10886.954093750002,"end":10887.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10887.44346875,"end":10887.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10887.71346875,"end":10898.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10894.159718750001,"end":10895.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10897.68659375,"end":10901.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10899.15471875,"end":10899.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10900.774718750003,"end":10904.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10901.38221875,"end":10902.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10904.993468750003,"end":10908.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10908.790343750003,"end":10909.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10909.00971875,"end":10909.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10909.44846875,"end":10916.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10915.45596875,"end":10919.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10918.51034375,"end":10921.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10920.012218750002,"end":10927.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10921.29471875,"end":10921.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10923.15096875,"end":10923.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10923.387218750002,"end":10923.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10928.09534375,"end":10941.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10941.76409375,"end":10956.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10956.85034375,"end":10993.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10983.242843750002,"end":10984.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10984.609718750002,"end":10984.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10993.249718750001,"end":10993.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10993.536593750003,"end":11010.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10993.55346875,"end":10993.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11011.17096875,"end":11014.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11014.27596875,"end":11015.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11015.96346875,"end":11023.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11024.535968750002,"end":11033.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11034.35721875,"end":11073.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11034.82971875,"end":11035.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11046.355343750001,"end":11046.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11054.337218750003,"end":11054.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11055.87284375,"end":11057.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11072.27534375,"end":11086.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11084.93159375,"end":11085.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11086.16346875,"end":11087.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11088.32346875,"end":11090.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11090.78721875,"end":11092.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11096.81159375,"end":11097.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11097.149093750002,"end":11097.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11097.75659375,"end":11099.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11103.29159375,"end":11103.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11104.945343750001,"end":11106.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11107.965968750003,"end":11108.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11109.29909375,"end":11110.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11111.020343750002,"end":11112.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11116.15034375,"end":11119.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11117.46659375,"end":11121.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11120.824718750002,"end":11120.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11121.01034375,"end":11121.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11122.039718750002,"end":11122.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11122.613468750002,"end":11124.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11124.26721875,"end":11134.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11134.24034375,"end":11134.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11134.72971875,"end":11139.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11138.93159375,"end":11139.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11139.03284375,"end":11139.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11139.184718750003,"end":11139.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11139.82596875,"end":11139.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11139.87659375,"end":11139.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11139.89346875,"end":11140.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11140.079093750002,"end":11140.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11140.09596875,"end":11140.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11140.112843750001,"end":11140.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11140.24784375,"end":11150.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11150.86221875,"end":11151.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11151.030968750001,"end":11163.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11151.06471875,"end":11151.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11164.14284375,"end":11179.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11180.140343750001,"end":11183.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11183.684093750002,"end":11187.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11188.13909375,"end":11191.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11191.952843750001,"end":11191.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11192.13846875,"end":11202.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11202.887843750003,"end":11204.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11204.980343750001,"end":11212.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11212.70909375,"end":11213.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11213.50221875,"end":11215.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11215.527218750001,"end":11230.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11231.64284375,"end":11231.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11232.081593750001,"end":11239.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11238.44346875,"end":11239.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11239.422218750002,"end":11253.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11252.145968750003,"end":11252.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11253.27659375,"end":11253.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11253.816593750002,"end":11270.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11269.51034375,"end":11270.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11270.472218750001,"end":11270.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11270.50596875,"end":11270.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11270.52284375,"end":11270.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11270.539718750002,"end":11275.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11270.77596875,"end":11277.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11277.137843750003,"end":11283.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11285.609093750001,"end":11286.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11286.23346875,"end":11286.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11286.95909375,"end":11287.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11287.70159375,"end":11290.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11290.671593750001,"end":11293.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11291.86971875,"end":11294.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11295.02534375,"end":11306.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11299.227218750002,"end":11299.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11307.20909375,"end":11308.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11309.26784375,"end":11314.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11311.782218750002,"end":11312.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11314.33034375,"end":11314.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11314.785968750002,"end":11336.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11320.641593750002,"end":11320.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11324.050343750001,"end":11324.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11324.117843750002,"end":11324.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11324.269718750002,"end":11324.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11337.077843750001,"end":11338.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11338.664093750001,"end":11339.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11339.659718750001,"end":11339.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11339.676593750002,"end":11339.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11339.91284375,"end":11339.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11339.96346875,"end":11339.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11340.199718750002,"end":11350.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11350.03784375,"end":11350.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11350.24034375,"end":11350.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11351.792843750001,"end":11363.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11358.37409375,"end":11358.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11363.504093750002,"end":11374.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11373.81471875,"end":11374.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11375.215343750002,"end":11399.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11381.324093750001,"end":11381.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11386.757843750001,"end":11386.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11386.774718750003,"end":11387.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11387.449718750002,"end":11387.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11392.259093750003,"end":11392.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11392.309718750003,"end":11392.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11392.360343750002,"end":11392.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11392.512218750002,"end":11392.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11392.52909375,"end":11392.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11397.473468750002,"end":11397.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11397.50721875,"end":11397.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11397.64221875,"end":11397.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11400.105968750002,"end":11401.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11401.97909375,"end":11402.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11403.480968750002,"end":11403.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11404.274093750002,"end":11405.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11406.130343750003,"end":11420.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11413.15034375,"end":11413.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11413.386593750001,"end":11413.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11421.01409375,"end":11427.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11427.29159375,"end":11430.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11430.81846875,"end":11431.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11431.122218750003,"end":11438.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11433.214718750001,"end":11433.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11438.597843750002,"end":11439.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11439.10409375,"end":11441.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11442.52971875,"end":11461.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11461.277843750002,"end":11461.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11461.31159375,"end":11461.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11461.56471875,"end":11463.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11463.167843750001,"end":11469.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11463.35346875,"end":11463.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11463.42096875,"end":11463.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11465.192843750003,"end":11468.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11469.141593750002,"end":11476.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11470.086593750002,"end":11470.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11473.15784375,"end":11473.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11476.92096875,"end":11501.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11478.92909375,"end":11479.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11481.39284375,"end":11481.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11481.409718750001,"end":11481.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11481.477218750002,"end":11481.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11494.26846875,"end":11494.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11501.01846875,"end":11501.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11501.254718750002,"end":11503.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11503.785968750002,"end":11512.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11512.695968750002,"end":11513.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11513.10096875,"end":11518.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11519.14221875,"end":11521.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11521.875968750002,"end":11528.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11528.06909375,"end":11534.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11534.785343750002,"end":11547.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11545.66971875,"end":11546.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11547.340343750002,"end":11547.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11547.40784375,"end":11549.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11550.090968750003,"end":11554.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11554.309718750003,"end":11556.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11556.992843750002,"end":11557.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11557.684718750003,"end":11558.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11558.629718750002,"end":11559.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11560.43534375,"end":11560.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11561.07659375,"end":11562.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11562.730343750001,"end":11572.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11573.09159375,"end":11576.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11576.95596875,"end":11595.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11586.49034375,"end":11586.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11588.75159375,"end":11589.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11589.03846875,"end":11589.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11590.75971875,"end":11590.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11590.87784375,"end":11590.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11595.51846875,"end":11595.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11595.87284375,"end":11605.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11597.25659375,"end":11598.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11598.657218750002,"end":11598.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11598.94409375,"end":11598.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11603.297843750002,"end":11603.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11605.710968750001,"end":11606.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11606.33534375,"end":11610.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11610.95909375,"end":11613.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11613.304718750001,"end":11613.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11613.524093750002,"end":11613.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11613.60846875,"end":11614.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11614.671593750001,"end":11618.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11616.409718750001,"end":11628.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11618.87346875,"end":11618.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11620.51034375,"end":11621.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11621.961593750002,"end":11622.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11628.390968750002,"end":11654.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11654.47971875,"end":11654.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11654.800343750001,"end":11667.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11661.73596875,"end":11661.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11664.047843750002,"end":11677.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11673.531593750002,"end":11674.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11675.219093750002,"end":11676.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11676.82221875,"end":11678.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11678.08784375,"end":11682.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11679.555968750003,"end":11679.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11679.57284375,"end":11679.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11681.125343750002,"end":11683.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11683.234718750002,"end":11687.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11687.875343750002,"end":11691.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11691.250343750002,"end":11691.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11691.672218750002,"end":11697.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11698.45596875,"end":11705.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11705.77971875,"end":11709.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11708.648468750001,"end":11710.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11710.808468750001,"end":11721.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11718.63846875,"end":11718.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11721.08534375,"end":11723.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11722.87409375,"end":11726.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11725.050968750002,"end":11728.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11728.493468750003,"end":11731.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11731.19346875,"end":11744.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11731.429718750001,"end":11736.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11744.96346875,"end":11745.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11745.01409375,"end":11747.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11745.081593750001,"end":11748.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11747.629718750002,"end":11751.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11750.39721875,"end":11752.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11752.574093750001,"end":11754.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11753.13096875,"end":11755.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11755.03784375,"end":11758.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11756.387843750003,"end":11757.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11757.02909375,"end":11758.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11758.480343750001,"end":11758.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11758.497218750003,"end":11761.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11762.699093750001,"end":11764.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11766.192218750002,"end":11771.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11766.344093750002,"end":11766.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11771.254718750002,"end":11773.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11777.211593750002,"end":11778.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11779.067843750003,"end":11779.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11780.02971875,"end":11780.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11780.77221875,"end":11780.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11780.789093750001,"end":11780.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11780.99159375,"end":11781.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11781.02534375,"end":11781.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11781.34596875,"end":11781.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11781.49784375,"end":11781.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11786.20596875,"end":11814.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11786.543468750002,"end":11786.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11786.56034375,"end":11786.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11786.61096875,"end":11786.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11786.847218750001,"end":11789.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11791.47096875,"end":11793.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11795.74034375,"end":11798.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11798.96346875,"end":11799.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11803.13159375,"end":11803.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11803.148468750001,"end":11803.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11803.165343750003,"end":11803.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11803.215968750003,"end":11803.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11810.742218750001,"end":11810.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11813.543468750002,"end":11813.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11814.488468750002,"end":11824.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11818.62284375,"end":11818.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11822.38596875,"end":11822.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11826.26721875,"end":11836.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11836.628468750001,"end":11838.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11838.67034375,"end":11840.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11841.25221875,"end":11842.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11843.53034375,"end":11846.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11846.297843750002,"end":11847.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11847.512843750003,"end":11850.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11850.719093750002,"end":11863.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11863.746593750002,"end":11864.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11865.14721875,"end":11867.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11867.62784375,"end":11868.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11868.79221875,"end":11877.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11871.94784375,"end":11872.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11877.95534375,"end":11878.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11878.343468750001,"end":11879.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11879.74409375,"end":11880.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11880.773468750001,"end":11881.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11882.12346875,"end":11893.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11893.29471875,"end":11893.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11893.78409375,"end":11895.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11896.872218750003,"end":11898.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11899.555343750002,"end":11900.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11900.63534375,"end":11904.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11905.832843750002,"end":11913.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11913.91596875,"end":11929.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11927.53409375,"end":11927.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11927.601593750001,"end":11927.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11927.63534375,"end":11927.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11928.664718750002,"end":11928.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11928.867218750001,"end":11947.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11948.18909375,"end":11952.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11949.387218750002,"end":11950.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11952.593468750001,"end":11956.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11952.914093750001,"end":11953.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11956.69409375,"end":11958.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11956.862843750001,"end":11957.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11958.044093750003,"end":11964.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11964.743468750003,"end":11967.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11967.96659375,"end":12000.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11980.403468750003,"end":11980.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11980.42034375,"end":11980.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11982.68159375,"end":11985.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12001.09221875,"end":12002.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12002.324093750001,"end":12002.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12003.04971875,"end":12004.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12004.028468750003,"end":12036.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12017.59596875,"end":12018.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12022.70909375,"end":12022.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12024.93659375,"end":12025.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12026.18534375,"end":12026.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12026.25284375,"end":12027.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12027.78846875,"end":12027.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12028.88534375,"end":12028.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12028.93596875,"end":12029.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12029.172218750002,"end":12029.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12034.724093750003,"end":12036.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12036.20909375,"end":12036.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12036.52971875,"end":12036.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12036.69846875,"end":12036.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12036.74909375,"end":12036.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12036.765968750002,"end":12037.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12036.867218750001,"end":12051.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12040.309718750003,"end":12040.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12041.42346875,"end":12042.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12046.722218750001,"end":12046.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12046.840343750002,"end":12046.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12051.953468750002,"end":12052.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12052.93221875,"end":12056.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12056.222843750002,"end":12057.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12057.488468750002,"end":12064.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12064.37346875,"end":12065.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12066.70221875,"end":12069.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12070.262843750003,"end":12094.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12094.52909375,"end":12094.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12095.32221875,"end":12099.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12096.739718750003,"end":12096.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12100.01346875,"end":12102.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12102.39284375,"end":12104.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12105.14346875,"end":12107.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12108.484718750002,"end":12109.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12110.52659375,"end":12115.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12115.977218750002,"end":12118.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12119.250968750002,"end":12121.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12122.28846875,"end":12124.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12125.950343750003,"end":12151.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12152.44409375,"end":12153.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12153.844718750002,"end":12159.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12159.801593750002,"end":12173.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12173.925968750002,"end":12207.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12173.942843750003,"end":12174.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12176.153468750003,"end":12177.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12179.157218750002,"end":12180.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12185.940968750001,"end":12186.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12207.152843750002,"end":12233.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12207.16971875,"end":12210.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12234.16971875,"end":12236.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12236.802218750003,"end":12239.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12240.81846875,"end":12254.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12242.286593750003,"end":12246.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12250.09971875,"end":12250.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12253.559093750002,"end":12258.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12255.044093750003,"end":12256.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12259.07721875,"end":12266.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12265.03409375,"end":12265.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12266.99159375,"end":12267.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12267.480968750002,"end":12269.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12270.130343750003,"end":12279.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12280.00221875,"end":12280.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12280.06971875,"end":12280.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12282.044093750003,"end":12298.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12284.777843750002,"end":12284.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12288.473468750002,"end":12289.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12289.38471875,"end":12289.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12295.35846875,"end":12295.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12295.476593750001,"end":12295.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12295.594718750002,"end":12295.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12299.77971875,"end":12315.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12315.49034375,"end":12340.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12326.290343750003,"end":12326.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12326.50971875,"end":12326.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12326.543468750002,"end":12326.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12339.38534375,"end":12339.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12339.402218750001,"end":12339.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12341.12346875,"end":12341.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12341.832218750002,"end":12342.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12342.28784375,"end":12353.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12353.914718750002,"end":12373.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12373.118468750003,"end":12373.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12373.472843750002,"end":12374.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12374.957843750002,"end":12380.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12380.61096875,"end":12380.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12380.712218750003,"end":12392.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12392.71034375,"end":12392.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12392.727218750002,"end":12393.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12392.929718750001,"end":12417.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12417.769718750002,"end":12445.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12422.579093750002,"end":12422.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12426.831593750001,"end":12427.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12427.60784375,"end":12427.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12427.641593750002,"end":12427.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12427.65846875,"end":12427.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12441.597218750001,"end":12441.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12441.69846875,"end":12441.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12441.85034375,"end":12442.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12442.035968750002,"end":12442.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12442.06971875,"end":12442.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12442.086593750002,"end":12442.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12442.390343750001,"end":12442.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12443.183468750001,"end":12443.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12443.655968750001,"end":12443.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12443.68971875,"end":12446.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12446.01846875,"end":12446.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12446.254718750002,"end":12448.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12446.42346875,"end":12448.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12448.988468750002,"end":12449.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12449.055968750003,"end":12449.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12450.270968750003,"end":12451.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12460.446593750003,"end":12464.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12463.281593750002,"end":12463.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12468.614093750002,"end":12469.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12469.609718750002,"end":12470.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12470.554718750001,"end":12474.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12474.60471875,"end":12476.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12476.207843750002,"end":12476.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12476.24159375,"end":12476.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12476.427218750003,"end":12482.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12482.890343750001,"end":12484.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12485.050343750001,"end":12487.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12487.19346875,"end":12489.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12489.87659375,"end":12490.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12491.547218750002,"end":12494.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12495.15846875,"end":12498.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12498.22971875,"end":12500.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12501.672218750002,"end":12502.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12503.17409375,"end":12503.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12504.33846875,"end":12505.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12505.28346875,"end":12506.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12507.055343750002,"end":12511.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12512.337218750003,"end":12512.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12512.759093750003,"end":12512.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12512.860343750002,"end":12512.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12513.315968750001,"end":12533.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12525.75284375,"end":12525.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12525.769718750002,"end":12526.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12533.39721875,"end":12539.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12534.409718750001,"end":12535.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12537.44721875,"end":12551.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12552.11159375,"end":12552.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12553.42784375,"end":12557.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12557.849093750003,"end":12559.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12560.211593750002,"end":12576.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12576.95159375,"end":12576.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12577.356593750003,"end":12578.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12578.031593750002,"end":12578.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12579.70221875,"end":12592.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12583.00971875,"end":12583.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12583.11096875,"end":12583.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12583.17846875,"end":12583.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12585.152843750002,"end":12585.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12590.097218750001,"end":12590.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12591.632843750001,"end":12595.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12593.387843750003,"end":12593.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12594.24846875,"end":12614.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12595.88534375,"end":12597.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12604.035968750002,"end":12604.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12606.719093750002,"end":12606.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12606.85409375,"end":12607.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12607.039718750002,"end":12607.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12607.07346875,"end":12607.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12614.92034375,"end":12618.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12617.907218750002,"end":12620.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12619.071593750003,"end":12619.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12620.117843750002,"end":12635.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12623.762843750003,"end":12624.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12629.820968750002,"end":12629.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12631.255343750003,"end":12631.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12636.149093750002,"end":12645.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12645.784718750001,"end":12656.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12648.83909375,"end":12651.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12652.83846875,"end":12653.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12654.188468750002,"end":12656.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12656.93909375,"end":12656.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12656.972843750002,"end":12658.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12658.407218750002,"end":12659.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12658.52534375,"end":12658.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12659.099093750003,"end":12659.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12659.234093750001,"end":12659.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12659.655968750001,"end":12659.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12659.672843750002,"end":12659.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12659.706593750001,"end":12659.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12659.976593750001,"end":12660.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12660.094718750002,"end":12660.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12660.195968750002,"end":12671.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12660.80346875,"end":12662.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12670.101593750001,"end":12672.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12672.008468750002,"end":12672.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12672.02534375,"end":12672.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12672.81846875,"end":12675.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12672.93659375,"end":12674.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12675.45096875,"end":12698.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12675.77159375,"end":12676.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12677.72909375,"end":12678.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12695.903468750003,"end":12695.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12698.18159375,"end":12699.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12699.02534375,"end":12714.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12699.07596875,"end":12699.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12699.93659375,"end":12701.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12714.989093750002,"end":12749.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12716.49096875,"end":12716.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12725.35034375,"end":12725.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12725.65409375,"end":12725.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12725.82284375,"end":12726.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12727.628468750001,"end":12727.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12739.457843750002,"end":12741.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12741.972218750001,"end":12742.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12743.524718750003,"end":12745.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12745.02659375,"end":12745.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12746.17409375,"end":12747.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12749.987843750001,"end":12752.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12752.485343750002,"end":12773.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12753.801593750002,"end":12754.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12754.155968750001,"end":12754.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12755.691593750002,"end":12755.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12755.97846875,"end":12756.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12758.745968750001,"end":12759.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12764.46659375,"end":12765.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12766.12034375,"end":12766.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12766.15409375,"end":12766.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12766.27221875,"end":12767.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12767.16659375,"end":12767.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12767.95971875,"end":12768.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12768.398468750001,"end":12768.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12773.81534375,"end":12774.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12774.11909375,"end":12779.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12779.67096875,"end":12780.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12780.02534375,"end":12789.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12782.370968750001,"end":12782.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12789.930968750003,"end":12793.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12793.677218750003,"end":12794.470343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12795.01034375,"end":12795.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12795.85409375,"end":12800.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12800.22471875,"end":12803.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12803.39721875,"end":12805.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12806.23221875,"end":12810.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12810.99096875,"end":12814.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12814.973468750002,"end":12823.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12823.32659375,"end":12823.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12823.49534375,"end":12852.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12823.54596875,"end":12823.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12825.452843750001,"end":12826.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12834.430343750002,"end":12834.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12834.56534375,"end":12834.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12838.480343750001,"end":12839.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12840.083468750003,"end":12840.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12850.140968750002,"end":12850.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12852.942218750002,"end":12853.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12853.245968750001,"end":12858.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12860.063468750002,"end":12870.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12862.29096875,"end":12863.235968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12863.235968750003,"end":12863.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12868.68659375,"end":12868.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12870.67784375,"end":12870.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12871.673468750003,"end":12874.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12875.031593750002,"end":12875.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12875.301593750002,"end":12879.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12876.145343750002,"end":12876.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12878.44034375,"end":12881.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12881.32596875,"end":12895.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12888.51471875,"end":12889.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12889.03784375,"end":12889.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12891.34971875,"end":12891.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12891.434093750002,"end":12891.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12891.51846875,"end":12891.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12896.125343750002,"end":12897.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12897.137843750003,"end":12897.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12898.285343750002,"end":12923.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12918.855968750002,"end":12919.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12922.079093750002,"end":12926.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12924.593468750001,"end":12925.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12926.179718750001,"end":12935.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12936.01784375,"end":12941.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12942.07596875,"end":12946.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12947.20596875,"end":12948.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12949.872218750003,"end":12953.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12951.509093750003,"end":12959.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12959.64284375,"end":12978.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12976.602218750002,"end":12976.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12978.52596875,"end":12986.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12987.081593750001,"end":12998.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12993.426593750002,"end":12994.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":12998.961593750002,"end":12999.079718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12999.079718750003,"end":13000.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13001.13846875,"end":13001.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13002.083468750003,"end":13002.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13003.450343750003,"end":13004.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13004.496593750002,"end":13014.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13014.38534375,"end":13014.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13015.02659375,"end":13025.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13018.65471875,"end":13018.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13026.062843750002,"end":13042.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13042.634093750003,"end":13060.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13046.39721875,"end":13046.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13047.86534375,"end":13047.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13047.949718750002,"end":13048.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13049.18159375,"end":13051.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13057.93971875,"end":13059.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13060.15034375,"end":13070.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13068.199718750002,"end":13068.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13070.39346875,"end":13077.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13077.86909375,"end":13078.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13078.67909375,"end":13088.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13081.21034375,"end":13081.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13081.851593750001,"end":13081.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13082.189093750003,"end":13083.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13083.505343750003,"end":13084.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13088.48346875,"end":13091.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13090.54221875,"end":13090.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13091.031593750002,"end":13091.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13091.504093750002,"end":13091.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13091.520968750003,"end":13091.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13091.554718750001,"end":13091.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13091.571593750003,"end":13095.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13096.212218750003,"end":13120.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13111.68659375,"end":13113.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13116.27659375,"end":13117.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13120.54596875,"end":13123.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13123.988468750002,"end":13126.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13135.328468750002,"end":13139.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13139.85096875,"end":13141.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13140.070343750001,"end":13140.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13142.179718750001,"end":13142.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13143.42846875,"end":13150.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13155.03846875,"end":13162.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13157.13096875,"end":13157.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13157.18159375,"end":13157.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13157.367218750001,"end":13157.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13157.82284375,"end":13158.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13163.05409375,"end":13166.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13164.488468750002,"end":13165.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13166.00721875,"end":13168.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13166.496593750002,"end":13168.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13168.251593750003,"end":13172.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13168.285343750002,"end":13168.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13173.38159375,"end":13178.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13178.59596875,"end":13181.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13182.61221875,"end":13185.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13185.531593750002,"end":13186.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13187.25284375,"end":13187.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13188.29909375,"end":13189.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13191.437843750002,"end":13194.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13195.79159375,"end":13197.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13198.035968750002,"end":13199.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13199.672843750002,"end":13202.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13202.37284375,"end":13203.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13203.722843750002,"end":13204.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13204.90409375,"end":13205.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13206.54096875,"end":13207.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13207.92471875,"end":13212.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13212.93659375,"end":13214.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13214.489093750002,"end":13215.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13215.062843750002,"end":13215.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13215.99096875,"end":13218.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13218.74159375,"end":13223.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13224.664718750002,"end":13225.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13226.099093750003,"end":13226.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13227.06096875,"end":13230.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13230.90846875,"end":13231.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13232.54534375,"end":13232.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13233.23721875,"end":13238.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13239.008468750002,"end":13239.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13239.649718750003,"end":13239.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13240.425968750002,"end":13248.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13248.57659375,"end":13255.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13255.91721875,"end":13265.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13266.71721875,"end":13270.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13270.68284375,"end":13270.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13270.699718750002,"end":13270.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13270.98659375,"end":13271.189093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13271.189093750003,"end":13273.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13271.222843750002,"end":13271.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13271.93159375,"end":13271.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13273.484093750001,"end":13273.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13274.05784375,"end":13282.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13278.884093750003,"end":13279.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13282.47846875,"end":13288.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13288.941593750002,"end":13289.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13289.76846875,"end":13297.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13298.239718750003,"end":13298.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13299.707843750002,"end":13303.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13303.808468750001,"end":13307.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13308.06096875,"end":13308.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13308.38159375,"end":13308.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13308.398468750001,"end":13309.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13309.96784375,"end":13325.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13325.965343750002,"end":13330.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13330.926593750002,"end":13331.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13331.753468750001,"end":13333.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13334.993468750003,"end":13336.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13337.79471875,"end":13340.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13340.69721875,"end":13360.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13360.778468750003,"end":13361.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13362.246593750002,"end":13382.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13382.83409375,"end":13383.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13384.724093750003,"end":13386.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13386.344093750002,"end":13393.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13394.29221875,"end":13395.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13396.840343750002,"end":13400.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13400.789093750001,"end":13401.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13402.172843750002,"end":13402.814093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13405.04159375,"end":13407.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13405.21034375,"end":13407.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13407.977843750003,"end":13408.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13408.58534375,"end":13408.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13408.602218750002,"end":13421.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13410.407843750003,"end":13410.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13421.106593750003,"end":13421.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13421.258468750002,"end":13425.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13425.629093750002,"end":13429.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13429.965968750003,"end":13430.235968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13430.235968750003,"end":13430.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13430.72534375,"end":13430.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13430.742218750001,"end":13442.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13443.550343750001,"end":13449.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13449.38909375,"end":13461.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13450.165343750003,"end":13451.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13462.079093750002,"end":13469.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13469.301593750002,"end":13469.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13469.824718750002,"end":13471.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13471.90034375,"end":13475.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13475.74784375,"end":13478.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13478.481593750003,"end":13481.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13480.574093750001,"end":13480.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13480.945343750001,"end":13481.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13481.24909375,"end":13489.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13489.062218750001,"end":13489.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13489.180343750002,"end":13490.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13491.812843750002,"end":13499.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13500.16596875,"end":13500.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13500.18284375,"end":13501.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13501.144718750002,"end":13501.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13501.27971875,"end":13501.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13501.347218750001,"end":13502.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13502.933468750001,"end":13506.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13506.359093750001,"end":13506.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13506.49409375,"end":13510.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13510.746593750002,"end":13510.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13511.67471875,"end":13512.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13512.19784375,"end":13518.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13512.24846875,"end":13512.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13512.434093750002,"end":13512.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13519.11659375,"end":13526.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13526.727218750002,"end":13527.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13527.85784375,"end":13529.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13529.730968750002,"end":13530.220343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13530.355343750001,"end":13531.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13531.367843750002,"end":13531.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13531.637843750003,"end":13531.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13531.671593750001,"end":13531.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13531.739093750002,"end":13532.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13533.66284375,"end":13535.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13536.24471875,"end":13538.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13549.12034375,"end":13551.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13551.499718750001,"end":13551.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13551.938468750002,"end":13552.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13557.794093750003,"end":13558.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13558.536593750003,"end":13559.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13559.734718750002,"end":13564.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13561.793468750002,"end":13562.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13563.44721875,"end":13563.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13563.480968750002,"end":13564.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13565.18534375,"end":13568.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13568.442218750002,"end":13569.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13569.94409375,"end":13571.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13571.715968750003,"end":13572.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13572.981593750003,"end":13574.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13574.80409375,"end":13576.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13576.559093750002,"end":13578.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13578.972218750001,"end":13583.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13583.258468750002,"end":13583.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13583.629718750002,"end":13584.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13585.08096875,"end":13589.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13587.629093750002,"end":13587.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13589.535968750002,"end":13589.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13589.56971875,"end":13589.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13589.805968750003,"end":13589.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13590.07596875,"end":13591.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13590.261593750001,"end":13590.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13592.219093750002,"end":13596.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13596.235343750002,"end":13596.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13596.387218750002,"end":13605.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13605.48284375,"end":13607.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13608.098468750002,"end":13621.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13621.345343750003,"end":13624.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13624.61909375,"end":13624.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13625.15909375,"end":13629.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13629.495968750001,"end":13630.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13631.031593750002,"end":13631.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13631.672843750002,"end":13636.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13636.60034375,"end":13636.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13636.85346875,"end":13638.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13638.422843750002,"end":13661.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13661.37284375,"end":13661.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13661.524718750003,"end":13661.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13661.575343750003,"end":13661.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13661.96346875,"end":13665.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13665.726593750001,"end":13666.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13666.55346875,"end":13681.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13681.757843750001,"end":13682.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13683.040343750003,"end":13713.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13713.90471875,"end":13714.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13714.74846875,"end":13742.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13716.33471875,"end":13716.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13722.730343750001,"end":13723.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13723.28721875,"end":13723.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13723.962218750003,"end":13724.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13727.92784375,"end":13727.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13727.97846875,"end":13728.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13728.231593750003,"end":13728.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13731.640343750001,"end":13731.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13733.969093750002,"end":13734.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13738.019093750001,"end":13738.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13741.90034375,"end":13747.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13747.82346875,"end":13749.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13749.86534375,"end":13756.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13757.40846875,"end":13766.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13767.044093750003,"end":13780.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13780.29096875,"end":13796.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13780.898468750001,"end":13783.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13796.879093750002,"end":13802.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13803.29159375,"end":13819.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13806.649718750003,"end":13810.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13811.813468750002,"end":13812.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13813.68659375,"end":13813.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13817.770343750002,"end":13826.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13825.161593750003,"end":13831.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13827.270968750003,"end":13827.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13829.734718750002,"end":13830.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13831.33784375,"end":13832.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13832.72159375,"end":13846.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13833.39659375,"end":13833.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13838.762843750003,"end":13838.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13838.77971875,"end":13839.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13840.500968750002,"end":13841.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13842.711593750002,"end":13843.251593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13846.94721875,"end":13850.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13850.96346875,"end":13864.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13864.530968750001,"end":13873.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13873.57596875,"end":13895.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13895.445968750002,"end":13907.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13896.30659375,"end":13896.407843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13901.082218750002,"end":13903.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13908.33846875,"end":13911.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13912.219718750002,"end":13918.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13918.19346875,"end":13926.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13924.21784375,"end":13927.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13927.305968750003,"end":13933.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13929.415343750003,"end":13930.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13933.954718750003,"end":13940.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13936.70534375,"end":13937.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13938.949718750002,"end":13945.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13942.020968750003,"end":13943.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13943.45534375,"end":13944.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13945.73346875,"end":13946.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13946.121593750002,"end":13952.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13950.559718750003,"end":13951.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13951.133468750002,"end":13952.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13954.59284375,"end":13955.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13955.875343750002,"end":13959.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13959.840968750003,"end":13974.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13975.298468750003,"end":13978.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13978.53846875,"end":13980.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13981.17096875,"end":13982.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13983.077843750001,"end":13985.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13987.667843750001,"end":13988.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13989.625343750002,"end":13994.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13995.71721875,"end":13998.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":13996.03784375,"end":13996.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13999.109093750001,"end":14000.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14001.269093750001,"end":14005.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14005.386593750001,"end":14006.517218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14007.040343750003,"end":14008.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14010.027218750001,"end":14012.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14013.503468750001,"end":14015.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14015.798468750003,"end":14018.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14018.39721875,"end":14020.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14020.82721875,"end":14023.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14023.392218750003,"end":14025.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14026.007843750001,"end":14028.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14028.690968750001,"end":14029.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14030.53034375,"end":14030.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14036.85846875,"end":14043.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14041.161593750003,"end":14043.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14043.844718750002,"end":14043.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14043.92909375,"end":14043.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14044.35096875,"end":14061.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14051.03346875,"end":14051.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14062.019093750001,"end":14063.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14064.128468750001,"end":14064.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14065.47846875,"end":14067.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14068.22909375,"end":14070.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14071.114718750003,"end":14074.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14071.75596875,"end":14077.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14077.03784375,"end":14085.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14078.657843750003,"end":14078.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14085.914093750001,"end":14087.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14086.184093750002,"end":14087.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":14087.41596875,"end":14089.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14089.035968750002,"end":14089.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14090.082218750002,"end":14090.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14093.37284375,"end":14094.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14094.53721875,"end":14097.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14097.625343750002,"end":14098.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14098.65471875,"end":14104.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14104.746593750002,"end":14114.517218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14115.37784375,"end":14118.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14122.161593750003,"end":14122.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14127.308468750001,"end":14129.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14129.55284375,"end":14130.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14131.67909375,"end":14134.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14134.61534375,"end":14137.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14138.05784375,"end":14140.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14141.939093750003,"end":14143.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14144.48721875,"end":14145.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14145.870968750001,"end":14149.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14150.02221875,"end":14150.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14150.07284375,"end":14152.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14152.840343750002,"end":14155.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14156.19846875,"end":14157.81846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1881.898,"end":1895.094,"text":"向委員報告請主任秘書報告出席委員人數報告委員會出席委員與主法定人數現在開始開會請議事人員宣讀上一次的會議議事錄"},{"start":1900.083,"end":1928.414,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期財政委員會第一次全體委員會議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年三月五日星期三九十二分至九十四分地點全巡樓九樓大禮堂出席委員鍾嘉斌委員等14人主席林委員失明報告事項一本院秘書長韓衛第十一屆第三會期本院各委員會召集委員選舉相關事宜業經本院人事處提報本院第十一屆第三會期第一次會議決定照案通過再案"},{"start":1928.954,"end":1955.953,"text":"二 宣讀本會期本會召集委員選舉而明冊選舉事項選舉立法院第十一屆第三會期本會召集委員一立法院各委員會召集委員選舉辦法第五及第八條召集委員之選舉以無記名單記法票選之但經各黨團之書面同意亦得以推選方式行之主席宣告推選賴委員事把及賴委員會員為立法院第十一屆第三會期財政委員會召集委員散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1958.124,"end":1970.817,"text":"謝謝 那麼現在有陳議政委員 吳秉立委員我們也打法定的可以決議的人數請問各位委員對於上次議事錄有無疑沒有 我們就議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀經歷的議程"},{"start":1979.534,"end":1995.652,"text":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金融率所屬單位主管暨財經資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告並被質詢宣讀完畢經過議程安排邀請中央銀行楊總裁進行業務報告現在請楊總裁進行業務報告請"},{"start":2012.219,"end":2018.707,"text":"主席還有委員各位媒體小姐先生大家早"},{"start":2025.819,"end":2042.521,"text":"今天呈邀前來貴委員會報告本行業務自感榮幸本行經營目標在於促進金融穩定健全銀行業務維護對內對外幣值穩定兼顧協助經濟發展以下請就國內外經濟金融情勢以及大院參議會起以來"},{"start":2043.482,"end":2064.922,"text":"本行執行貨幣信用及外交政策等主要業務提出報告 敬請會事指教請寬開第二頁 國際經濟金融情勢一 美國川普總統經濟政策影響效果之不確定性升高恐不利全球經濟成長且推升通膨"},{"start":2066.343,"end":2077.877,"text":"掛五一 上年九月以來國際機構大抵程逐月下調本年全球經濟成長預測值同時上調全球通膨率預測值之趨勢第三頁 掛五二"},{"start":2085.445,"end":2104.77,"text":"S&P国宝本年2月预测本年全球经济成长2.6%低于上年9月预测的2.73%另外在2月它的预测对本年的全球通膨率是3.15%也高于上年9月预测的3.31%"},{"start":2106.61,"end":2124.619,"text":"第五頁二不確定性上升影響投資信心金融市場川普交易行情降溫各位可以翻開第六頁各位可以看到2024年的9月美國實驗期公債殖利率是3.78"},{"start":2126.4,"end":2144.187,"text":"美元指數是100.78美國納斯達克指數是18189美國的S&P500指數是5762但是它在歷史新高在年初的時候它是創歷史的新高美國10年期公債是4.79美元指數109.96從這個表可以看出"},{"start":2150.29,"end":2167.589,"text":"事實上從年初以來,川普的交易樂觀行情是降溫的第七頁,川普2.0政策進一步加劇保護主義,恐使全球化更趨向零碎化"},{"start":2168.789,"end":2181.222,"text":"第一,全球化親屬美國利益及國際影響力,美國由全球化的推動者轉為保護主義者。第二,從華盛頓共識推動貿易自由化,到2025年,它是保護主義加劇。"},{"start":2190.992,"end":2218.645,"text":"第九月 川普1.0政策效果未達預期川普2.0擴大關稅政策力道強化美國自主生產能力並防堵部分國家繞道取得優惠第十月 川普2.0擴大關稅政策力道保護主義加劇它有多重的目標第一個是邊境的安全第二個是國安的戰略第三個是公平交易"},{"start":2220.765,"end":2229.521,"text":"另外,川普2.0擴大關稅政策,藉此強化重要關鍵物資在美國生產,並防堵過去席產地資政策破口。"},{"start":2233.786,"end":2255.945,"text":"第十二月各位可以參考美國與加冒中戶關稅政策對各國經濟成長力跟通膨的影響第十三月這個表也請各位來參考第十四月是費的暫停降息ECB持續降息循環BOJ持續升息不滑人行"},{"start":2257.226,"end":2272.213,"text":"貨幣政策保持寬鬆全球經濟第15月全球經濟面臨諸多的不確定性因素第16月請各位參考第17月預期呢第17月國內經濟金融情勢預期本年台灣經濟成長動能延續2024年台灣的經濟成長是4.592025年的主力總數的預測是3.14"},{"start":2284.039,"end":2304.172,"text":"那國內外主要機構對台灣本年經濟成長率預測平均是3.04請各位分開第20月上年通膨率持續的下降預期本年續降至2%左右第23月2"},{"start":2308.628,"end":2330.936,"text":"國內外主要機構對本年台灣CPI年增率預測值介於1.70到2.30平均是1.95那如果說我們考量台鐵票價及水電等公用事業條狀的影響那麼本行對本年CPI的年增率預測值可能會列為上修27月"},{"start":2336.158,"end":2362.77,"text":"一本行主要業務的說明上年12月本行維持政策利益不變有助整體經濟金融穩健的發展二十八月二本行根據執行選擇性信任管制措施二十九月萬無三本行信任管制措施三個目的之成效均逐漸的顯現三十月一"},{"start":2363.49,"end":2382.321,"text":"房市投機需求減少 價格漲勢縮減 民眾抗戰房價的預期心理趨緩31 無自用自宅購屋貸款比例上升32 不動產貸款集中度及不動產貸款增幅均趨降"},{"start":2383.627,"end":2404.162,"text":"三十四月掛五四本行積極透過專案檢查督促金融機構落實本行不動產貸款規範三十五月五本行持續精進本行不動產未來持續推動本行不動產信用管制措施"},{"start":2406.101,"end":2431.954,"text":"36月 新台幣對美元貶值為相對主要貨幣 匯率穩定告一 上年國內會社美元需求大於供給本行禁賣匯164.2億美元37月 上年10月以來 市場預期川普當選 美國總統機率上揚市場新起川普交易 受此影響 新台幣對美元成貶值為貶幅其中"},{"start":2436.833,"end":2445.057,"text":"四十月掛五三新台幣與其他主要貨幣對美元表現相比表現居中新台幣波動幅度亦相對穩定"},{"start":2447.114,"end":2466.226,"text":"事實二月掛無事本年二月底本行外存底較上年底增加主要反映是本行外存底投資應用的效率本行的外存底是三月外存底是5767億那外幣流動性是6942億事實四月是國內重要資物系統的營運概況"},{"start":2475.726,"end":2489.332,"text":"46月5本行持續推動CPTC的研究計畫結餘以上僅就國內外國內外經濟金融情勢與本行主要業務提出簡料報告至於本行調節金融通貨發行"},{"start":2490.572,"end":2512.005,"text":"外匯管理及經理國庫等業務概況則置一戶入進行著參本行捐付促進金融穩定健全營養業務維護對內及對外壁紙穩定兼顧協助經濟發展之法定職責隨時密切注意國內外經濟金融其實發展妥適應用各種資格工具以達政策目標本行業務"},{"start":2512.925,"end":2539.024,"text":"促成各位委員頂住與支持僅藉此機會表達衷心感謝之意今後仍請各位委員實事指教 謝謝好 現在補充介紹今天現在在場的立委以及政府的官員首先介紹林德武委員"},{"start":2541.264,"end":2541.444,"text":"吳秉瑞委員"},{"start":2571.397,"end":2572.718,"text":"秘書處的梁處長以及會計處的郭處長資訊處的陳處長"},{"start":2582.045,"end":2602.217,"text":"人事室的張主任 法務室的謝主任以及中央印製廠的林總經理 中央造幣廠的葉廠長以及財經資訊公司的林董事長好 那麼向委會報告 我們現在開始詢答"},{"start":2604.194,"end":2625.209,"text":"訓導之前做以下的宣告每位出席委員發言的時間八分鐘必要的時候得延長兩分鐘每位的列席委員發言五分鐘今天早上十點鐘截止發言登記現已登記的順序請登記第一號的第一位的林德武委員"},{"start":2639.509,"end":2651.093,"text":"謝謝主席還有這個與會的委員還有這個楊總裁我們各單位的主管是不是也請楊總裁那請楊總裁"},{"start":2658.917,"end":2683.682,"text":"李委員長總裁你好是總裁我想下個禮拜四要召開第一季的禮監事會那有媒體報導四月電價面臨調漲的壓力那央行可能會出現預防性的升息的壓力總裁上個禮拜行政院公布二月消費者物價指數CPI年增率百分之1.58"},{"start":2685.962,"end":2702.755,"text":"除了征服創近四年新低的趨勢之外主計總數更表示目前的物價情勢相對的平穩那我請問總裁如果最近調漲電價你認為對消費者物價指數有什麼影響"},{"start":2711.145,"end":2732.509,"text":"電價如果說根據以往的一個他調整的弧度還有就是說他對CPI的影響來講的話如果說根據前幾波的一個調整的一個弧度那對CPI的一個影響會有影響但是不會影響不大是吧對影響不大"},{"start":2734.569,"end":2756.542,"text":"總裁因為電價調漲因素會不會成為央行這次決定升息與火的催化劑會不會我想第一個就是說是由我們的理事來討論這個議題不過我們如果說看到我們目前的一個物價算是平穩所以說你認為不會影響還是一樣"},{"start":2761.281,"end":2789.678,"text":"原則我想這個還是要因為下個禮拜四所以這個會討論這個跟電價完全沒有關係到目前為止因為電價是要四月份不過就是說四月份但是有一些預期的心理基本上如果說我們看趨勢主計總會看的那個趨勢是慢慢的是在下來的所以去年你看到2.18"},{"start":2790.839,"end":2810.21,"text":"那1月2月的2.12平均2.12但是呢我們的核心的CPI呢是在2%以下已經是幾年都是2%以下那個總裁又或者目前央行考量升息還必須有其他的這個成就條件我請總裁"},{"start":2811.491,"end":2830.553,"text":"你來述明這些理由好不好是啦 我想主要的中央銀行到目前為止我們還是看第一個是通膨跟通膨預期那第二個看看其他主要央行他的一個調整貨幣政策的調整的一個情況"},{"start":2831.614,"end":2851.475,"text":"第三個就是說也要看國際的經濟金融的情況是怎麼樣那當然我們台灣的一個目前的一個經濟的發展情況我們也要考量那這個都是我們要考量升息調整貨幣政策的一個主要參考的議案這樣齁總裁"},{"start":2853.197,"end":2875.475,"text":"美國聯準會主席鮑威爾指出儘管市場普遍預期FED可能會在2025年內降息但他說這一決策不會基於一時的市場波動或政策的猜測而是依賴更為清晰的數據和未來經濟的發展那我請問總裁"},{"start":2879.358,"end":2893.137,"text":"那你認為目前國內貨幣政策觀察的重要指標是什麼我剛剛也是在跟委員報告我們觀察的指標主要還是通膨還有通膨的預計"},{"start":2895.7,"end":2922.586,"text":"那還有就是說整個全球的經濟金融的情況是怎麼樣那當然我們也要考量到今年我們的經濟成長是怎麼樣特別是在川普2.0出來了以後他的一個不確定性對整個全球經濟金融的影響是怎麼樣這個是我們必須要考量的那我請問要決定升息或降息央行應該採取哪種方式"},{"start":2925.544,"end":2947.622,"text":"我想呢升息降息呢主要的還是就是說我們的政策利率看要不要調整啦這樣喔是啊對啊就是看看我們的我們的discount rate我們的政策利率要不要調啊要不要調整啊主要的還是這樣總裁是就鮑爾的看法本席認為美國聯準會也十分審慎評估國內外整體的現況來決定升"},{"start":2953.166,"end":2974.082,"text":"降息 余火是不是升或降但是從美國總統川普發動關稅戰的範圍擴大美股也已經出現可能反應經濟衰退的持續大跌那總裁川普上任兩個月從上月20號"},{"start":2975.843,"end":3000.372,"text":"開始到現在美國日本韓國啊股市都出現相當大的跌幅台股也從近期的高點兩萬三千多點下跌到兩萬一千多點那請問總裁這是不是關稅戰導致台股大盤提前來反映你認為呢對那個委員講得不錯不過我認為就是說"},{"start":3004.634,"end":3029.791,"text":"川普我們在我們的報告第六頁這邊也有談到了事實上現在是一個川普的行情慢慢的降溫慢慢的降溫那所以呢美國的股市在做一個collection因為他太高了那台灣的股市全球的股市也因為受到川普2.0不確定性的一個影響所以現在都是在做"},{"start":3030.732,"end":3049.633,"text":"所以說我們也受到衝擊我們也受到衝擊不過呢到目前為止呢是稍微是回復到他九月份那個時候是一直一直衝高嘛那現在是回檔所以也就是說回復到九月以前的那個水準啦"},{"start":3050.174,"end":3070.093,"text":"所以不是說它的correction是非常的大好像也沒有總裁國際股市出現一個月的跌勢那你認為這是不是代表未來整個經濟衰退的信號已經出現了我個人是當然現在好像是市場是瀰漫的這樣的一個看法"},{"start":3070.733,"end":3090.732,"text":"不過呢 我也覺得這是還是一個回檔啦回檔就像我們第六頁這邊所表達的事實上它是一個回檔那你認為這是不是預期心理下的恐慌性的下跌對 應該是啦也有一點就是它的恐慌它不確定性的這個恐慌是上升的"},{"start":3091.252,"end":3092.493,"text":"美國總統川普表示美國經濟正面臨過渡期"},{"start":3108.226,"end":3134.866,"text":"如果以外界來解讀那川普開打關稅戰觸發整個全球經濟的衰退的可能性應該不小那我請問總裁全球經濟衰退你認為美國難道可以獨善其身嗎你認為我們的報告這邊我們是引用S&P Global它的一個預測那基本上它的預測都認為說"},{"start":3137.227,"end":3164.268,"text":"川普的2.0會導致全球的經濟會下降但是他對美國倒是他總覺得美國的經濟是還有韌性的所以說我要請教總裁美國到底他的優勢是在哪裡那要是如果不行那商人出身的川普到底是什麼心態提出這種可能傷敵一千自損八百的關稅政策"},{"start":3165.649,"end":3184.604,"text":"你認為呢?對,美國是很特殊啦美國因為它是一個全球最大的消費國當然它也是最大的赤字它的進口赤字,它的貿易赤字那所以呢,它有這個"},{"start":3185.545,"end":3203.934,"text":"他這個就是說他是希望用這樣的一個關稅的一個工具呢要達到他平衡貿易平衡的一個目的那你認為川普採取的打打彈彈的這種兩手策略對他"},{"start":3204.778,"end":3230.348,"text":"主要就是你認為他的目的想法就是那個總裁你認為他是怎麼樣的一個想法主要的我們在我們的報告第10頁也有講到他是國安的戰略也就是說他的製造業要回流要回去那個他講求是公平交易他都認為就是說因為他赤字他貿易赤字他總覺得貿易順差的國家"},{"start":3232.749,"end":3260.869,"text":"都占他的便宜這樣子對還有另外他是邊境的安全就是說那些的那個所以他最主要的目的是在這裡你像原油價格的變動對全球經濟會產生影響而全球經濟的狀況又會影響原油的價格對上一季央行理監事會表示國際原油這個近年來這個低檔盤整帶動人員價格下跌那總裁以第一季油價走勢"},{"start":3262.59,"end":3290.916,"text":"及各界對2025年經濟景氣的預測再加上川普擴大關稅戰的催化那請問原先對經濟景氣溫和成長的預測會不會因為太多負面不確定的因素導致整個全球經濟景氣反轉向下的趨勢所以就是說委員也問得很好事實上現在市場瀰漫著不確定性的因素"},{"start":3291.576,"end":3313.134,"text":"那這個不確定因素呢他會影響到什麼他會影響到投資廠商的投資也會影響到消費者的消費那這個對經濟成長都不是很好所以我就要密切關注他的一個對整個最後一個議題我再請教總裁根據主計總數二月的物價變動概況消費者物價指數CPI的年增率1.58%是四年來的新低"},{"start":3317.938,"end":3346.206,"text":"加上扣除蔬菜水果以及能源後核心的CPI上漲0.98%也創造四年來的新低那總裁主計總署認為當前物價雖然平穩但是還是高於通膨的警戒值那我請問以目前我們整個蔬果肉類啦水產品以及外食會等等這些價格上漲加上房租啦醫療費用的"},{"start":3348.707,"end":3371.597,"text":"長勢的延續是不是會造成整個物價通膨警戒的阻因是不是啊 我想也沒有錯啦最主要的還是就是說那個能源這個是沒有問題但是現在就蔬菜水果蔬菜水果還有就是服務類就是外食啦還有房租啦這些都是壓力這樣喔對 是好 這樣我了解 謝謝好 謝謝好 謝謝林委員的質詢請請帶一下"},{"start":3377.674,"end":3380.195,"text":"好 第二位請吳秉樂委員質詢主席麻煩請央行 請就位"},{"start":3410.915,"end":3417.647,"text":"剛剛有在台下聆聽如果核心的CPI不到1只有0.98"},{"start":3420.794,"end":3447.405,"text":"很危險啦嗯中國上個月的CPI是-0.7是通縮不是一件好事對那沒有錯在CPI在1以下有陷入通縮的這個可能性對沒有錯那當然你再加上蔬菜水果這個季節性的價格調整對非核心不是只有計算核心物價的話是一點出頭一點一點出頭是"},{"start":3449.212,"end":3477.939,"text":"我以前在那邊跟你對話過一個國家最好的CPI應該是在2左右不是越低越好不然中國應該要高興就像習近平講的物價下跌有什麼不好因為他不了解這個要從體經濟來看不是只有看這個數字是啦 委員講的也沒有錯站在美國的立場川普是美國總統站在美國立場他一定是想要美國"},{"start":3480.285,"end":3491.23,"text":"所以他其實從以前的戰略在競選期間他就是要讓製造業回歸美國全世界現在最大的問題先跳開總體經濟來講是戰隊的問題戰在哪一隊的問題現在的供應鏈是要建構非紅供應鏈"},{"start":3501.243,"end":3514.605,"text":"就是說因為中國共產黨CCP北韓、伊朗、俄羅斯這些極權國家這一些本來的全球化最得利的是中共"},{"start":3515.681,"end":3543.791,"text":"沒有錯啦那現在就是因為要把這個中共不遵照世界貿易的這個規則走所以必須要讓他離開這個供應鏈他現在走的戰略是這樣看清楚啦不要看表面然後常常台灣人喜歡說我們是不是在懷疑美國對台灣不好我們來認為川普是一個狂人川普在美國選民如果你相信民主政治的話"},{"start":3544.98,"end":3560.977,"text":"他在選舉人數以及在個別的計算數上他全部都是大幅獲勝所以美國人很支持這樣的政策那或許他講話比較快那講的"},{"start":3561.994,"end":3590.6,"text":"又可以改跟過去傳統中華文化裡面的儒家思想說這個為君者必須要謹言慎行有一點不太一樣但是他背後有他的思考跟邏輯脈絡我們回到國際貿易來講正常的國際貿易本來就是應該要balance那台灣去年對美國順差多少700多億美金換算成台幣是兩兆五千億"},{"start":3592.093,"end":3611.128,"text":"那這麼大額的金錢我們已經是美國的這個順差國裡面的排名前幾名的第五名第六名所以在這種狀況之下我們每天假設我們兩個不要說國家對國家的我們兩個是兩個廠商就你一年賺了我"},{"start":3612.119,"end":3629.04,"text":"七百多億美金難道你不會想說我應該也要你應該要適度的回饋吧這個是很合理的啊難道是台灣的政府對於一個國家對台灣一年順差七百多億美金然後他可以裝聾作啞當中沒有看到嗎"},{"start":3631.502,"end":3656.797,"text":"所以我是覺得你要從人家的角度也要思考這些問題那你認為像台灣一年對美國順差這麼多很奇怪的是跟過去的理論不同台幣對美金還在貶值照理來講順差多你應該要升值那你還在貶值那因為強勢美元所以你認為這部分應該要怎麼處理"},{"start":3659.02,"end":3687.516,"text":"當然就是說美國的匯率報告我想委員也知道這個匯率報告它是三樣因為我們第一個標準經常這樣順差還有就是對美國的順差現在就是看第三項第三項剛剛委員也提到了不過我們第三項就是說按照道理我們對它的順差對美元應該是升值"},{"start":3687.816,"end":3696.14,"text":"但是因為就是說剛剛也講到就川普的交易行情美國的交易行情你看看我們這邊他從9月份的時候100.78到1月13號的時候是109就升值了9點多那這個就是說川普行情"},{"start":3713.568,"end":3731.598,"text":"所以所有的辯論對他都是辯論你看一個人當選美國總統看對全世界影響多大他其實現在是全世界洞見瞻觀大家天天都在聽他講什麼天天都在看他要做什麼另外一點是"},{"start":3732.518,"end":3760.15,"text":"我相信我們不會刻意去操縱這個匯率絕對是不會因為我們知道這個如果被列為匯率操縱國的話那是我們就很倒楣啦我們第一個我們也很謹慎那當然就是說因為剛剛委員在講就是說匯率呢就實質的貿易來決定的匯率應該就是說那這樣的話美元是要貶值的但是問題另外一個就是金融帳"},{"start":3761.491,"end":3780.316,"text":"金融帳因為就是說CAPITAL FLOWS有的金融帳也就是說他的資金進來他的資金出去金融帳的金融帳跟貿易帳這個就不大一樣所以就是說現在基本上匯率大部分都是由金融帳來決定的而不是貿易帳"},{"start":3781.576,"end":3795.595,"text":"但是那個貿易戰是長期的因為你不可能說去年對美國順差700多億今年可能還會再繼續增加這多年累積的結果你記不記得當年日本被美國逼的升值逼到日本的狀況"},{"start":3798.218,"end":3822.001,"text":"如果經常性的貿易順差今年累月這樣累積我們台灣得想辦法解決啊不解決的話我們將來會面臨這個困境因為金融帳比較容易浮動嘛那你這個貿易帳那是比較長程的影響我跟委員報告就是說我們台灣現在目前我們一直沒辦法解決的問題還是在於我們的差額儲蓄的問題"},{"start":3823.892,"end":3851.963,"text":"所以主計總署前不久就公佈我們今年的我們差額儲蓄大概又是4.5兆所以我有一個看法跟你分享前幾天台積電的魏哲嘉董事長在美國白宮跟川普一起開記者會全世界矚目大家都說這是不得了的影響力對不對可以跟川普在那邊開記者會而且川普對他的禮遇"},{"start":3853.163,"end":3880.678,"text":"他未來的幾年會增加台積電會增加對美國投資一千億美金嘛那個錢啊如果是由台灣這一邊借貸去那當然要評估各家銀行要評估說這好還是不好其實台積電本身有錢嘛更多金融機構也很想借錢給他啦因為金融機構都想借錢給有錢人啦坦白講就這樣啦"},{"start":3882.099,"end":3897.626,"text":"那這個錢如果能夠到美國去這也就是一個金融帳的平衡嘛 對不對至少幾年內可以幫 有點小幫助第二個啊 其實賴總統也講得很清楚喔他希望台灣的廠商評估如果合理"},{"start":3898.735,"end":3914.6,"text":"也有錢賺鼓勵大家到美國去投資是不是公開講過了這也是一種金融帳的平衡多一點投資到美國去我們台灣就會留多一點錢去美國那這個也很好再來"},{"start":3916.098,"end":3943.488,"text":"政府有沒有可能考慮讓台灣的個人可以直接購買美國的股票因為現在是付委託手續麻煩然後又那個費用又非常的貴使得這個會變少那當然基於國際互惠這個要金管會所屬部門跟美國那邊談嘛這個都可以談啊那再來就是大眾物資的採購然後能源的採購"},{"start":3945.049,"end":3971.564,"text":"能夠對如果差價沒有很大是可以接受的範圍分散採購來源對美國大宗物資的採購也是平衡貿易的一個方法是沒有錯要多方努力啦對啦那所以是站在這樣的立場講說今天要面對的是我們要看到問題的根源而不是被指責說那是笑的每天在我勒索沒有啊是你一天到晚"},{"start":3972.793,"end":3992.127,"text":"台灣是人家的順差這麼大的國家他第一名是墨西哥因為就是他的鄰國距離他那麼遠這樣的經濟體對他的順差全球第六名這是很可怕的累計個幾年我覺得我們很可能被迫"},{"start":3993.991,"end":4020.344,"text":"累積幾年之後很可能的避職的壓力就大了到時候很可能就巨幅升職對台灣的製造業也不利啊我覺得委員講的也沒有錯不過我覺得委員也是講到就是說我們要面對問題我們要解決問題我覺得還是這樣子啦也不是說一味的就是說指責他啦我們要面對我們要面對他我們要解決他"},{"start":4021.297,"end":4036.165,"text":"是啊 是政府是整體的嘛所以你也參加行政院會嘛是在談到這方面的時候希望你也是你一定是比我們更高明啦但是對政府多一些建言好 謝謝你加油謝謝委員的質詢下一位請袁寬武委員質詢"},{"start":4049.061,"end":4052.367,"text":"主席各位列席官員大家早主席有請我們楊總裁楊總裁請"},{"start":4065.047,"end":4078.939,"text":"首先本席想請教總裁就是近日全球最關心的議題就是在上週台積電宣布加碼投資美國一千億美金台幣3.3兆以上讓全世界產業界競爭也成為"},{"start":4081.989,"end":4098.231,"text":"這個政經啊然後也成為全美國政壇的焦點尤其在國會演說川普這個也大力讚揚台積電強調說沒有給錢台積電就來投資他意圖展現他自己比拜登更具有經濟實力更高明"},{"start":4099.712,"end":4117.581,"text":"這顯示出台積電的決策不僅僅是經濟行為也牽涉到國際政治還有經濟競爭對台灣而言最大的擔憂是我們的護國神山出走所帶來的風險台大的副教授邱浩傑指出"},{"start":4120.362,"end":4139.2,"text":"避險機制的高成本投資可能會掏空台灣的晶圓代工訂單更可能會快速消耗台灣的外匯存底那我要這邊要請教楊總裁台積電的巨額海外投資是否會導致大量美元資金的流出影響我國外匯存底會不會"},{"start":4144.764,"end":4159.235,"text":"我們的局處也有針對這個問題我們也有討論過不過我們一直認為在短期之內應該是不至於短期之內我們會慢慢的來觀察它的一個情況因為第一個"},{"start":4160.359,"end":4186.151,"text":"我們你想想看就是說台積電他的他到那邊去投資他所要的美元那事實上呢台積電他賺的美元是很多的他不必要就是說是在市場這邊買美元然後到那邊去投資不必要不是不是當然就是說我們台灣最具競爭力跟影響力的"},{"start":4187.071,"end":4215.831,"text":"就是以半導體產業為核心的高科技產業在全球供應鏈重組還有地緣政治的變動台灣企業面臨前所未有的外部壓力還有內部的一個挑戰所以說台積電宣布投資一千億美金那只是台灣高科技產業赴美投資的第一槍尤其在川普的執政下恐怕不只台積電還有更多的龍頭企業在台灣的龍頭企業不管是半導體 電子 AI"},{"start":4217.792,"end":4243.786,"text":"這些都受到了這些壓力或者是誘因整個產業鏈將資金跟技術輸出到美國那所以未來不管是錢人才全部都往美國走那不僅是台積電其他的科技龍頭這樣子的情況台灣是否會面臨產業跟資金的雙重外移的風險所以說對於剛剛你也提到經常這樣外匯政策"},{"start":4244.726,"end":4270.961,"text":"他一定會有一個很巨大的變動所以我尤其川普上台之後他一定會推動更多的保護主義美國優先所以關稅大戰供應鏈重組吸引外資這些東西對於我們全球經濟帶來極大的變化所以未來的貨幣政策走向還有美國對台科技的政策資本外流跟外匯存底"},{"start":4272.202,"end":4284.217,"text":"國際貿易格局的一個變化那央行作為維持金融穩定跟貨幣政策決策的一個關鍵機構我想要提醒楊總裁就是說除了密切關注還有提前因應我們還能做什麼"},{"start":4285.52,"end":4312.247,"text":"我想基本上剛剛所講的那些是風險你所說的風險而且我總覺得那是一個算是比較比較就是說是稍微比較極端一點的一個情況基本上我一直覺得就是說台灣的一個產業它不會就是說一窩蜂整個就在很短的時間就掏空出去了"},{"start":4313.052,"end":4326.918,"text":"不會不是對你剛剛提到這個那像我們台積電要去投資1000億美金也沒有事先跟政府報告然後也沒有做一個完整的一個很好的準備啊我們大家也是"},{"start":4328.26,"end":4350.494,"text":"也是在很短的時間才知道說要做這樣子具有的投資所以未來難保其他的龍頭企業迫於這種形勢誘因等等不得不去啊這個就是我們擔心的嘛那我再請教總裁就是說升降息的部分啦因為美國經濟惡化通膨的沒有降溫的趨勢那美國也在這個時間向所有的貿易夥伴"},{"start":4353.477,"end":4365.812,"text":"發動這種關稅大戰包括加拿大墨西哥那這些25%的這種關稅另外對中國也加徵10%的關稅加徵就是在原來基礎上又在加徵那這些舉動讓他們"},{"start":4368.495,"end":4392.221,"text":"讓專家也自己在擔心說可能推動美國國內物價的一個推升那也會引發停滯性通膨的這樣的狀況那面臨這個成長經濟成長趨勢跟通膨持續的一個升溫的雙重挑戰在這種情況我們央行總裁有沒有評估過"},{"start":4393.737,"end":4408.566,"text":"可能對我國的經濟貨幣政策造成哪些影響對我們也有評估過啦基本上呢我總覺得以目前的一個情況因為現在說實在第一個就是說他的情況還不是非常明朗第二個"},{"start":4409.346,"end":4425.584,"text":"他對墨西哥對加拿大他的一個扣關稅那基本上我們跟墨西哥跟加拿大我們對他的出口基本上是佔我們的GDP佔我們的出口還有佔我們的GDP不大"},{"start":4426.685,"end":4454.773,"text":"那但是呢對中國的一個他都要扣20%的那個這個對我們的影響會比較大一點為什麼因為我們對中國大陸的一個出口呢是現在是目前是31多啦31點幾但是呢他是從40幾42一直調降到31那中國大陸呢到美國去的一個出口呢也慢慢的在調整所以呢基本上呢"},{"start":4455.933,"end":4472.765,"text":"他對中國大陸的關稅對我們的影響也是慢慢地在下降當中那我記得我們第一次川普1.0的時候對中國大陸的一個扣關稅事實上得利的是台灣"},{"start":4473.906,"end":4498.291,"text":"我們台灣反而沒有受到影響那為什麼因為那個時候是台商回台投資第二個我們對美國的出口反而更加增加總裁我們的貨幣政策沒有跟美國對那貨幣政策方面我再想就是說第一個就是說以通膨來看的話對美國的通膨的影響會比較大對我們台灣的通膨比較少"},{"start":4503.511,"end":4516.235,"text":"我之前在質詢你的時候你有提到說CPI年增率要在1.5%以下才會降息是你之前有提過我們看到"},{"start":4518.966,"end":4530.81,"text":"資料就是說主計處的公布的資料1月份的CPI零增率2.66對擴除這個蔬果跟能源之後核心CPI上漲2.26對所以等於是說"},{"start":4535.114,"end":4553.201,"text":"不會有降息的情況對不對是總裁是這樣子嘛對不對對應該是啦那去年FED降息的時候我們反而升了半碼所以說央行這邊的態度就是說一定要在CPI年增率在1.5以下才會降息是不是這樣子"},{"start":4554.762,"end":4581.835,"text":"大體上應該也是可以說這一點是不變的應該也是這樣子啦我想我能夠理解說央行在制定貨幣政策還有考量這些必須要多重的考量那我是期望說央行能夠審慎的評估靈活的應對因為對於台灣未來經濟發展還有這個整個國家的一個對於美國中國這樣子的一個貿易大戰或者是這種"},{"start":4583.395,"end":4597.728,"text":"一些政策對於台灣的一些影響會造成我們的這些企業還有我們這些產業一個很巨大的變動好不好會 會 黃安會 會好 謝謝 謝謝委員好 謝謝 謝謝我們嚴委員來 繼續來我們賴昭偉 來賴志寶"},{"start":4618.049,"end":4621.833,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請我們的楊總裁來 楊總裁"},{"start":4629.721,"end":4648.567,"text":"賴委員早早 辛苦了楊總裁謝謝那麼川普總統宣布4月2號要對等關稅對等關稅的意思就是你課我多少關稅我課你多少關稅我查了一下美國的產品到台灣的關稅是6.5%"},{"start":4650.367,"end":4669.792,"text":"台灣的關稅到美國那裡去是3.3%才一半啦剛剛好一半而已啦4月2號就要開始啦這樣一來會不會對我們這麼巨大的700多億的對美的一個順差有沒有影響"},{"start":4672.4,"end":4693.206,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們的資料就是對等關稅這個全部的產品,我們台灣對美國的稅率全部平均,加權平均我們全部的話,我們是比他的關稅還低"},{"start":4695.572,"end":4702.734,"text":"我們互的0.5%所以美國到台灣的產品值更低?對 全部 我們用全部 但是農產品好 那就以你的為主好不好因為我查的是另外的資料以你的資料 我們去美國是多少?幾%?"},{"start":4719.458,"end":4732.505,"text":"我們去美國是幾%?我們的產品去美國的關稅是幾%?平均?我這邊的資料就是說是這樣啦我這個沒有明確的那個我只是差距啦我們用差距啦差距喔就是美國跟我們的水利的差距"},{"start":4746.693,"end":4748.194,"text":"我們農產品的關稅差距 就是說我們出口出去的跟我們進口 我們是比他高了5.3%"},{"start":4769.107,"end":4774.549,"text":"那個是農產品平均是我們是我們占它便宜的否則我們生產不會那麼大你想也知道嗎如果我們是買了1.5怎麼可能這麼大"},{"start":4787.733,"end":4790.416,"text":"主要是農產品但是輝農產品的部分我們是比他低"},{"start":4799.963,"end":4828.144,"text":"那你講的是電子產品啊對 電子產品 因為我們的電子產品幾乎是零嘛我們的電子產品幾乎是零啊我們對那個農產品 我們是比他高我們去他那裡是零 他來我們這裡是零啊對啦 也沒有錯啊全世界電子產品幾乎都是零啊你總裁你查一下 查一下今天看到美國對於高磊對於加拿大 歐盟"},{"start":4829.246,"end":4851.356,"text":"要課25%的關稅 生效樓生效樓然後呢 加拿大歐盟也要對等課他280億美元的繁殖所以全球的關稅大戰已經開打了 對吧對吧開打啦 歐盟已經開開拋啦 一樣啊你25 我也25啊老公也開拋啊阿咱大王沒有啦"},{"start":4855.559,"end":4869.875,"text":"連台灣呢 我們台灣呢我們現在對台灣來因為他沒有對美國報告所以呢 報告委員我們第13頁這邊也有談到啦也有談到就是說美國額外針對四項商品的加徵關稅"},{"start":4871.457,"end":4880.103,"text":"那它對醫藥 醫藥品 半導體 特別是我們就是半導體嘛那還有鋼鐵 鋁銅 汽車零組件我們的十三頁這邊有談到就是說我們對它的曝險相較其他的國家來講 我們的曝險比較小"},{"start":4891.687,"end":4907.883,"text":"所以美國還沒有對我們出手就對了對 現在還沒有特別是那個彈刀的問題我們能不能夠說我台積電投資你1000億美金加原來的650所以拜託你川普啊"},{"start":4908.664,"end":4918.953,"text":"你可以看我給你這麼多錢是不是你就不要給我加關稅了可以嗎所以各個國家有沒有在談這個我就不曉得有沒有在談因為這個不是我們中央醫療局的職權有沒有在談我不曉得但是委員講的也沒有錯就是說很多國家也是多是在講究某種產品是不是要關稅可以豁免要跟他協商"},{"start":4936.307,"end":4949.6,"text":"我們去了一千億加元的六百五十億一千六百五十億美金沒有錯請問這一千億這個要去投資的事先你知不知道這個我不知道你都不知道我不知道這個錢從這裡你要這裡出去的他有經過你呢"},{"start":4953.123,"end":4980.289,"text":"因為包括委員 要經過你咧對啦要經過你啊對不對對對對他會經過我外匯市場那這外匯市場我們會知道但是呢這個他的一千億呢也不會就是說是在一年之內就一千億不會四年啊他講四年啊他講四年啊很長的時間嘛四年啊很長的時間他講四年平均一年要出去四百億美金喔一年要四百億美金喔我跟委員報告"},{"start":4981.169,"end":4988.414,"text":"我們這個問題我們也有跟他討論過有跟他討論過?我們有跟他討論過基本上他認為說他這個錢不會從這邊套位你聽我講一下你是不是跟魏哲家默契默契當然不會魏哲家那麼忙我們的相對的對口我們會跟他"},{"start":5005.307,"end":5007.589,"text":"你們派誰跟他談我們外匯局的局長有沒有談"},{"start":5027.022,"end":5053.947,"text":"那我由他來稍微跟你報告一下要匯錢匯這麼多出去要經過跟你們講一下啊包委員我們跟美方之間都有密切的在溝通啦不是啊你跟我們台方啦不是美方啦那台積電部分因為我們他們在大額結會的部分金額比較大的部分好了你跟誰談啦台積電的誰談啦"},{"start":5055.427,"end":5062.471,"text":"台積電的財務部門 財務部門總裁你不要鬧開啊 他財務長你不可以跟他談啦局長對財務長一三年啦對啊 那跟你談就為職家啦為職家你要對口啊 你要對財務才會中啊"},{"start":5074.677,"end":5094.782,"text":"因為魏哲嘉他不會去了解這些資金的狀況還是他的財務長比較了解所以也就是說他去那邊投資那會影響到我請問你啊川普是不是希望美元弱勢是不是"},{"start":5097.271,"end":5121.98,"text":"他希望能夠賣東西賣得好啊事實上他好像有這樣的一個傾向不過我跟委員報告就是說匯率也不是說有一個人他講的就算數但是他希望美元落市啦所以希望台幣升值啦匯率是由市場決定的"},{"start":5122.867,"end":5125.89,"text":"你去年進場164億美元 台幣還是騙因為你就怕被列為匯率超中估不會 我們不會怕 我跟委員報告"},{"start":5146.086,"end":5167.35,"text":"我們跟美國的財政部呢 我們的溝通良好我們隨時都在溝通所以這一點呢 請委員放心現在是不是還是被列為觀察名單這個最近據我了解 他都四月中四月到四月中呢 他會發布匯率報告"},{"start":5169.89,"end":5181.916,"text":"所以是因為台灣就被拿掉了,是這樣子嗎?我不曉得,因為我跟委員報告我們最起碼都會有兩項我知道啦,所以兩項就是觀察的嘛對,兩項就是觀察的嘛所以你要拿掉很困難的啦"},{"start":5187.559,"end":5197.125,"text":"因為如果說是兩項 特別是兩項就沒辦法了啦三項就操縱過 兩項就觀察過一項就觀察名單沒有錯所以這樣四月還是觀察啊因為你還是要再操縱啊還是兩項啦所以還是操縱啊沒有操縱啊觀察啦 觀察啦"},{"start":5216.748,"end":5221.06,"text":"這個你剛才講CPI我現在關心的GDP今年台灣的GDP怎麼樣"},{"start":5224.364,"end":5238.488,"text":"我跟委員報告 基本上我們報告這邊也有談到我們第一個我們的組織總署現在是他把他revise down但是他現在還是3.14這個是3.14那第二個國際的機構國內國外的機構平均現在以平均來講的話是3.04"},{"start":5249.562,"end":5278.212,"text":"不會再往下掉 不會再往下跳這個就是說 這個是目前的一個預測但是他會隨著新的一個制裁然後他才會川普的關稅政策是不是大犀牛是不是灰犀牛大犀牛他是不是灰犀牛這個我目前我是不曉得不過我也可以跟委員報告他對市場的不確定性是提高了"},{"start":5279.099,"end":5288.147,"text":"還沒有到灰犀牛程度應該是還沒有吧最後一個小問題也是很重的問題我問一個很笨的問題美國的國債這麼高佔GDP超過150%為什麼他不會倒你說他的那個債務佔GDP150%為什麼不會倒"},{"start":5304.103,"end":5312.085,"text":"因為美國你想想看日本本身就是250%250%日本都沒有倒啦何況是美國美國的經濟體那麼大美元又是國際主要的貨幣"},{"start":5321.468,"end":5327.05,"text":"所以你就這樣回答所以你就說150%佔事實上先進國家債務佔GD的比重都很高這樣子台灣的20幾%你緊張什麼我們差不多30%左右而已會不會到時候如果他"},{"start":5346.136,"end":5356.669,"text":"因為請問你這個我所查到之內對不對我們的外匯存底一半差不多一半是我有沒債應該是有啦會不會他現在這個舉債太多了臨時說這段時間我的利率"},{"start":5369.773,"end":5393.39,"text":"我覺得這個機率不高啦因為這樣的話就相當於除非就是說他把他的利率是從現在的4點幾把它降到0除非這個機率啦不然的話他不能就是說美國財政不能說我現在只能給你0那這樣的話就是等於他保障"},{"start":5394.23,"end":5413.886,"text":"如果說美國做這種動作的話 我相信啦 會美元危機會美元危機謝謝 謝謝我們賴昭偉他要是匯率降到零的話 不要利息的話就是送到緬甸去啦 這真正的詐騙犯啦"},{"start":5423.823,"end":5424.964,"text":"現在請國務委員資訊請謝謝召委 有請楊總裁來 楊總裁請"},{"start":5446.057,"end":5451.525,"text":"國務院長總裁你好我想我一樣跟賴兆偉一樣關心關於這個對等關稅的問題不過就數據上來說賴兆偉講說美國不是平均3.3我們是6.5 名目上這樣是沒有錯"},{"start":5462.479,"end":5479.95,"text":"但事實上在貿易金額加權之後的平均關稅台灣其實是2.2%那美國是1.7%也就是相差是0.5%你剛剛講0.5%沒有錯看起來台灣是比較高但台灣之所以比較高的原因是因為農產品所以實質上我們的貿易平均關稅其實是比美國還低"},{"start":5486.494,"end":5513.431,"text":"所以我要跟你說明這一點所以也就是說對等關稅來說對台灣其實是沒有什麼太大的重擊更何況呢其實我們在整個進出國跟美國之間的一個出口的項目還有這個進口的項目各十大項當中包括這個半導體那個機路電路啦半導體的機械啦等等器具基本上幾乎都是免稅的兩邊都免稅的所以這個部分我看起來"},{"start":5513.951,"end":5536.559,"text":"看這個部分整個對等關稅看起來衝擊不是很大可是事實上是因為我們的貿易順差劇烈的成長一下子從2023年第九名現在變成第六名然後現在川普一直對於這些順差的國家譬如講第一名的中國大陸或墨西哥都持有高關稅的方式這是讓大家關心的地方"},{"start":5537.48,"end":5549.377,"text":"現在我想請問一下那個總裁喔到底你認為川普用這個高關稅的政策是一種手段呢還是一種目的那就如同你剛剛回答這個其他委員講說我們要面對問題我們要解決問題是不是我們態度這樣子"},{"start":5553.123,"end":5580.919,"text":"然後你在這個報告當中的13頁當中就寫出來主要的這些經濟體有幾個方式啦就是他們來面對這個高關稅的部分第一個是報復措施PEW獎以加拿大的話他就針對這個那個袖帶州的部分來進行高關稅來施以報復第二個的部分是雙邊協商第三個部分購買美國商品在上次你報告當中購買美國商品我們要購買農產品、能源跟軍品你有提到就是三個"},{"start":5581.88,"end":5607.711,"text":"然後最近又多一個增加對美投資台積電去那1000億那之前我們1600億再加上總統又提到說GDP的部分國防預算要增加到3%而且這個部分我們不會受到三減預算的影響我們一樣維持國防預算的情況底下一年大概採購大概50億美金之多我們的天然氣石油的部分大概加起來一年的話大概是2000億左右的這一個美元"},{"start":5608.592,"end":5620.388,"text":"這樣的情況底下換算起來再將農產品大概十到二十億啊就這些總體數字來說總裁面對問題解決問題你覺得你提出的方法當中還有哪些台灣需要加強的地方"},{"start":5622.37,"end":5641.05,"text":"我想就是說第二個就是說也要多多跟他們溝通協調啦有溝通的管道嗎我之所以跳過雙邊協商的部分就是還沒有看到我們有對等溝通的管道啊因為溝通就我們中央銀行的這個職權來講我們就是說匯率報告"},{"start":5644.353,"end":5670.904,"text":"匯率報告的話呢我們有談到就是說央行跟他們對話是沒有問題是說新的關稅的這個政策下來的時候有沒有新的溝通管道跟對話方式啊那這個我就我不曉得啦但是就中央銀行的一個立場溝通我們跳過好不好你不曉得我們就跳過嘛溝通我們就跳過嘛你既然不曉得我們就跳過嘛我們剛剛講的你曉得的部分嘛要怎麼做我念給你聽啊還需要加強什麼"},{"start":5674.249,"end":5689.217,"text":"想不出來你這麼聰明都想不出來怎麼辦嘛對不對我們要面對這個川普的一個國安政策我跟委員報告事實上我們的台積電去那邊投資對等關稅之外還有報復關稅的問題耶"},{"start":5691.478,"end":5706.805,"text":"對不對台積電去加漢布朗當加起來是1650億耶但是他以川普他們的野心不是只是一家台積電他希望建立的是產業鏈半導體的產業鏈甚至是半導體的生態系形成所謂半導體的狼帶"},{"start":5709.026,"end":5726.56,"text":"所以目前這個為止總體經濟來說那個衝擊很大對美的關係關鍵很重要那這樣的情況底下我就說你之前已經有寫出一些方向了嘛那是不是應該在做你總體經濟宏觀的角度再提出一些可能性跟看法關稅只是其中之一了總裁"},{"start":5727.441,"end":5748.483,"text":"你知道最近川普還提到一個海湖莊園協議這比照華盛頓廣場協議的衝擊更大他除了關稅還有匯率還有債務重整三大面向最近他就點名日本跟中國說他操縱匯率那日本很聰明"},{"start":5749.364,"end":5761.814,"text":"日本之前是1比158現在跳到1比148最近好像又變成146又馬上升值升值的幅度是最快的你去看你這張圖你這張圖是最近"},{"start":5765.077,"end":5786.402,"text":"央行每天在臉書裡頭更新了最重要的圖為什麼你每天要更新因為知識替代嘛因為國人很關注嘛這個主要貨幣對美的這個升貶值升貶幅度的一個關鍵但是就升貶幅度的比較當中我們看出一個關鍵點就是台灣的部分比其他國家來說"},{"start":5788.851,"end":5798.679,"text":"比較嚴重人家都有升值我們甚至還在貶所以這個問題可能我們會被針對在3月10號的時候是0.12我們還貶值0.42最新的報告當中是0.553月12號"},{"start":5808.047,"end":5822.467,"text":"所以說在這種情況底下央行有沒有做努力我看是有做努力啦你在報告的37頁當中呢你去年就賣廢了164億嘛很顯然你有逐貶嘛可是你逐貶的情況底下"},{"start":5823.559,"end":5842.606,"text":"還是貶啊怎麼辦總裁我跟委員報告啦基本上呢美國財政部他不會就是說只有觀察你的匯率短時間的有波動事實上我們現在就貶嘛比較急嘛因為匯率有些時候你要看長的"},{"start":5846.69,"end":5873.206,"text":"要看長的如果看長的話我有一個數據跟委員報告請說2010年到現在呢我們台幣呢對義蘭的貨幣呢我們升值了將近20%所以照你這樣講我們不會因為這樣子川普點名的中國日本我們不會被點名你是不是這樣子安心沒問題我跟委員報告就是說第一個"},{"start":5874.227,"end":5903.639,"text":"我們跟美國財政部的一個溝通是良好的他們也知道我們台灣的匯率運作的情況你總裁說沒問題大家就安心了好不好就沒問題嘛可是接下來下個禮拜四我們央行要開這個禮監事會議了下個禮拜四FED也要開這個利率的禮監事會議了他們在凌晨我們在下午如果說他們有這個降息的話對我們壓力可能會比較小"},{"start":5904.56,"end":5906.906,"text":"可是如果萬一他升息的話那我們該怎麼辦"},{"start":5909.629,"end":5935.058,"text":"這件事應該會比較有聯動效果吧我跟委員報告啦就是說基本上呢說美國現在要升息這個跟市場的意氣是不大是違背的啦不太可能是不太可能因為現在呢所以只有降息不會升息對而且呢它的降息只是時間的時間的短或是它如果降"},{"start":5935.478,"end":5955.007,"text":"美元就會貶他如果升美元就會強可是你上一次的會期當中我們在另一個會議室你說美元川普上來美元應該會走強勢貨幣剛剛你回答這一個代委員又說走貶這不是矛盾嗎沒有沒有沒有沒有矛盾那個委員你看看我們第六頁"},{"start":5956.187,"end":5979.797,"text":"第二位在那個川普在九月份的時候他的美元的指數是100.78那然後呢到今年的1月13號的時候呢109.96相當於他將近升值了10%所以說還是升值嗎還是升值啊如果他走升值的話那對台灣的壓力就越大嘛"},{"start":5980.137,"end":6006.449,"text":"你去看一下台灣最近的情況那也不是說只有台灣啦所以我們在這邊但是我不管其他我就管我們嘛他生之後我們會壓力更大你再來看看不過我跟委員報告啦就是說匯率不是看短時間對我知道你剛剛已經強調過了不用再重複我聽到了現在有一個大的問題是台灣現在所處的環境當中是屬於這種minus的利率是負利率"},{"start":6007.749,"end":6034.015,"text":"這個負利率你在上次的報告當中去年3月你說屬於4宗比較於美國香港但是現在所有的國家你聽我講完所有的國家來說現在minus的就剩下台灣跟日本是最近剛好2月我們的CPI是只有1.58所以說意外稍微轉正一點點總裁你也算是神機妙算但是你如果說換算成台銀的定存的這個比例1.715%的話"},{"start":6036.215,"end":6058.688,"text":"還是一樣負利率啊所以很多人會把這個利率過低的問題視為房價之所以會高漲問題因為資金取得成本實在太低了嘛一個關鍵的問題好 就來提到你房市的降溫的部分你在P35頁當中的這個部分到底你精簡的幾家銀行都沒有講你只有講說你精簡120"},{"start":6061.75,"end":6085.449,"text":"然後你最後的講法說你會持續去觀察那你的意思是說你要用經檢的持續經檢的方式來取代可能的第八波的信用管制是不是總裁那當然啊所以沒有所謂的第八波信用管制只有第七波的持續經檢不會只有停在120會持續下去是不是"},{"start":6086.914,"end":6104.664,"text":"我想我們第七波是配合了它的總量管制總量管制之後我們第一個我們一定要來檢討就是說它有沒有按照它的一個期程來控制它的對不弄產的放款第二個我們在配合我們的專案精檢"},{"start":6108.746,"end":6116.152,"text":"我覺得這樣以目前來講的話呢你在B35你講說他們裡頭有一些問題就是哪幾家銀行你也沒有公佈麻煩你公佈一下或是私底下給我貸款陳述超過法定上限或者變相給予寬帶期這些東西都是違法的事情啊利用其他名目徵貸這裡都沒有寫出來這銀行哪有嚇阻效果啊清檢只有你知道別人都不知道有這麼神秘嗎"},{"start":6139.129,"end":6146.715,"text":"我們現在在開秘密會議嗎是是是要不要公佈我就要公佈嘛我來讓我們相關的單位也許我們提供資料給你公佈公佈公佈該公佈就公佈好不好我們來這個接下來我還會再問你啦我那房價到什麼時候點你要好好給我一個答案好不好"},{"start":6164.828,"end":6164.848,"text":"總裁"},{"start":6185.783,"end":6213.699,"text":"總裁早安賴委員早先跟你討論一個時事的議題是我想你應該也知道賴總統是一個超級棒球迷是那其實在去年11月底就是台灣的棒球隊拿下世界的12強的冠軍其實現在回想起來還是非常的感動那當時就有委員提到了是不是因為進入了12強我們要不要發行紀念幣"},{"start":6215.3,"end":6229.791,"text":"還是紀念鈔當然這個就是改版的新台幣那我們知道就是說如果是改版的新台幣的話他可能牽涉到了很多就是不管是我們的這個"},{"start":6231.292,"end":6251.066,"text":"合作社的ATM還是點鈔機還有所有自動那個自動銷售那個的一個銷售機的一個辨識系統那這個評估你們有沒有去評估要花費多少錢那當然是要費很多的錢那總裁目前有沒有這樣的一個計畫會不會做這樣的一個計畫我想就是說"},{"start":6256.952,"end":6274.875,"text":"紀念碧 紀念超的這個問題我們還是在收集各方的意見如果你讓他明年打進去他現在已經拿到經典賽的資格了明年萬一不小心又打了一個世界冠軍的話"},{"start":6275.516,"end":6293.796,"text":"那我想這個是一個值得紀念的那就是說我們央行有沒有什麼樣的一個機會所以用紀念幣或是紀念鈔的一個方式也許會比較好啦紀念幣還是紀念鈔因為牽扯的層面不會那麼大對對對好那總裁有沒有這樣的一個規劃"},{"start":6295.077,"end":6298.92,"text":"我們就拉回來就是當今的一個經濟上的一個議題全球的經濟議題那我們當然知道就是說去年11月我們曾經邀請你來就是說"},{"start":6313.769,"end":6325.932,"text":"一起做專案的一個報告那這裡要請教總裁就是說2025年經濟的一個情勢你怎麼看這怎麼看其實是非常重要的當然我們知道就是說"},{"start":6327.694,"end":6347.121,"text":"川普掀起了一個這個全世界的經濟的一個貿易戰那事實上就是說我們不管是在那個美國關稅的一個調整的一個生效甚至就是說美國的以亞還亞就是川普他課了那個加拿大的一個那個綱領"},{"start":6348.582,"end":6375.734,"text":"那個關稅那甚至歐盟也跟他對幹了就是說他也是講他就是說他要緩制的一個措施那其實這麼多這麼多就是說他不斷的一直宣布不管是關稅的一個調整還是說關稅的一個那個手段這個我們都看到了4月2號他即將就是說暫停所有符合美墨加協定的"},{"start":6376.634,"end":6399.247,"text":"這個對於就是加拿大跟墨西哥的關稅課25%那它也就是說在增加對中國的10加10就等於是20%的一個關稅那你怎麼來看待就是說台積電滬美擴大投資這個對於4月2號即將那個到來的全球的一個對等關稅你怎麼看它呢"},{"start":6401.048,"end":6404.432,"text":"對等關稅我剛剛也是在講就是說對等關稅對台灣來講的話我們是比較沒有多大問題"},{"start":6410.987,"end":6438.226,"text":"那你覺得對台灣是好的因為剛剛我就說我用WTO我剛剛也在講就WTO的一個資料就是說我們全部的產品就是說美國跟台灣的關稅來比較的話用貿易的加權平均全部的商品的話我們的關稅是比它低的但是我們農產品的關稅是比它高的"},{"start":6438.973,"end":6463.436,"text":"不過總裁我之前的幾位委員一直在提醒你就是美國的貿易順差這個累積下來這個接近700億的美元這個是一個非常嚴肅的一個問題你一定要有一個因應的一個措施這個因應的措施其實我相信川普不會放過我們的我們是前六名"},{"start":6464.597,"end":6482.127,"text":"雖然就是說我們是排序第六名的話可是他你想想看這個影響這麼大他沒賺他的錢他都要修理人家了我們賺他這麼多錢基本上我們對美國的順差主要是什麼"},{"start":6482.927,"end":6488.25,"text":"主要的是資通訊所以他一直要你的台積電所有的資通訊資通訊第一個他需要這個產品而且是他非常需要的"},{"start":6505.439,"end":6521.097,"text":"所以這個跟那個不公平的貿易這個好像我總覺得呢是他需要的那個啊你是這樣的一個看法那如果我最關心的是那個農產品那你美國現在也盯上了印度跟日本的進口的那個農產品的一個關稅了"},{"start":6522.318,"end":6551.006,"text":"那如果台灣也相對的就是遇到的相同的一個挑戰那我們的農民會受到了很大的一個衝擊那這樣子的話你有沒有什麼因應的一個方式因為我們都知道就是說那個沒關係你就是進一步的一個詳細的分析請一個月內提出給我一個書面的一個回應接著我還是想再跟那個就是總裁再討論一下這個百變的一個川普"},{"start":6551.846,"end":6574.897,"text":"其實他是不是在製造一個一場經濟上的一個衰退顯然是喔看起來是喔他在接受那個胡適的一個專訪的時候他也在預告喔他在預告說美國其實就是以退為進我們他們即將在面臨到一個經濟的一個衰退的可能性可是這樣美股就是股票就應聲就是下跌所以他"},{"start":6576.057,"end":6596.044,"text":"趕快又在白宮又講了又一個信心喊話說美國不會陷入衰退這個我們都看得出來他左右手的一個緩護的一個操作那在這裡我想問一下就是說如果川普現在掀起的一個全球的貿易戰和相關的一個政策是不是會破"},{"start":6598.265,"end":6616.594,"text":"這個壓迫到那個就是聯準會的一個降息那聯準會有沒有可能妥協最快會是什麼時候總裁你怎麼看我覺得美國聯準會有他的自己的看法基本上他是因為聯準會他是獨立性的"},{"start":6617.345,"end":6643.232,"text":"獨立性所以你看看就是說川普說他會下來就是說他會那個recession就是說會衰退但是呢那個Fed主席Power他就說事實上目前美國的經濟還是很有韌性的他的一個勞動市場還是蠻健全的所以總裁你認為就是我這個他不會這樣"},{"start":6644.432,"end":6669.872,"text":"聯準會不會降息所以這個也不是說他不會降息因為事實上你認為他不會降息那我再接著就是告訴你就是請教你一個議題因為我們都知道說那個美債的殖利率持續的上升那就是說我們台灣的壽險公司其實擁有跟我們的金融業擁有大量的一個美債這個對美就是台灣的金融系統"},{"start":6670.792,"end":6695.785,"text":"會在未來會有一個什麼樣的一個影響尤其就是說近期他可能是在半年還是一年有沒有這個我們可預期的可預期他應該是會有一個很重大的影響那你怎麼來看待這些問題我覺得我們的我們的受險業基本上他們因為他長久他長久都是在那個這個市場上"},{"start":6696.445,"end":6718.55,"text":"所以我總覺得他們當然有輸有贏不過歐洲歐來講的話我總覺得我們受選人他還是表他的一個成效還是表現得非常的好還表現得非常好還算是好因為他長久都是在這個市場上的他長久都在這個市場上所以基本上可是長久沒有碰到一個這麼瘋狂的那個美國總統"},{"start":6721.237,"end":6724.44,"text":"不過我跟委員報告我給你一個數據在2024年9月底的時候美國公債的殖利率是3.78"},{"start":6737.592,"end":6742.697,"text":"那最高點是4.79就將近升了1%但是最近已經到3月10號的時候它又降回來到4.22"},{"start":6751.627,"end":6768.493,"text":"所以你的業務報告裡頭有特別提出來我沒有看到這樣的一個數據你在信心的一個喊話可是在很短的時間這個不到兩個月的時間這個震盪這麼大那如果像我們的受險業它的槓桿操作是這麼大的話那你覺得這樣子沒有風險嗎風險到處都是"},{"start":6779.036,"end":6785.14,"text":"所以你認為保險業的槓桿開的那麼大所以它的匯兌風險那麼高所以你認為沒有關係那如果就是說我們的資產大部分是美金那一旦台幣升值的話就是說保險業的資產它的保單負債大部分是台幣那這樣的一個狀況的話你認為沒有關係"},{"start":6806.595,"end":6814.504,"text":"我想這個不是說沒有關係,他們自己風險的控管他會做你這麼有信心,那台幣會不會被美國強制的升值呢?不會啦,我的意思就是說新台幣的匯率還是由市場來決定的"},{"start":6825.936,"end":6837.986,"text":"是由市場決定的啦不是說中央銀行要讓它升就升 要讓它貶就貶不是這樣市場決定沒有啦 當然你的看法非常重要啊謝謝總裁 謝謝主席謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝賴委員的質詢 下一位請李燕秀委員質詢"},{"start":6854.77,"end":6857.852,"text":"總裁早安我今天問題非常非常多那因為時間非常短我就直接進入我的課題央行的黃金儲備一向都很少人關注但是黃金今年被大家討論很多"},{"start":6878.567,"end":6899.378,"text":"我們央行的黃金儲備將近423公噸其中有410公噸是作為發行的準備是完全不會動的其餘的部分我們每一年都會每四年總統副總統就任會做一些紀念幣的這個儲幣的來處理那我們目前央行黃金儲備大概有1358萬盎司市值達到1.3兆新台幣我們的帳面"},{"start":6905.962,"end":6926.838,"text":"大赚超过1400亿元因为最近黄金都有在涨价那我们在全球的黄金排名也达到第13名过去这几年无论是大陆中国大陆他在4月份今年也扩大黄金的储备包括波兰央行去年也买了90吨的黄金"},{"start":6929.02,"end":6951.325,"text":"總裁,我有關注到,您有提到我們跟美國的貿易的順差我們應該可以多買一些軍品、農產品、能源這些來平衡我們的貿易順差在1980到1989年代,當時我們其實有很大的貿易順差那時候廣場協議,當時政府就說好,我們買黃金"},{"start":6954.726,"end":6982.773,"text":"我覺得現在看起來是家惠子孫所以這件事情你覺得我們有沒有可能在貿易順差我們也來買一些黃金有沒有可能你對這件事情的看法如何基本上就是說我們為了平衡美國的順差我們來買黃金好像這個好像也沒有就是說是很好的一個"},{"start":6984.093,"end":7010.046,"text":"很好的一個措施啦為什麼基本上美國好像也不認為就是說你就是買黃金來平衡它的那個但美國同不同意是一個關鍵啦對不過就是說這個就涉及到就是說中央銀行就是說我們用買黃金的方式來平衡我們的貿易的順差好像也很少是用這種方式"},{"start":7012.746,"end":7034.195,"text":"當時是沒有錯啦當時這個政策現在看起來是對的啦因為我們的黃金的儲值很多啊是啦當然啦那也不過就是說時空的情況是不大一樣的那個時候呢是購買黃金就是說要平衡中美之間的一個順差但是那個時候據我了解他也沒有承認"},{"start":7036.877,"end":7055.231,"text":"所以我們現在的平衡貿易順差的狀況之前你提到那三大項那你覺得真的有辦法解決嗎所以我在講到這個的時候我才剛剛也在講這個問題就是說基本上我們"},{"start":7057.933,"end":7074.363,"text":"美國跟中國大陸美國跟墨西哥跟加拿大的順差的問題跟美國跟我們台灣的一個逆差的問題是不大一樣的我同意啊因為川普"},{"start":7074.963,"end":7093.771,"text":"他要一國一國來談所以我們要因應我們必須要好幾道不同的策略跟版本接下來總裁我也要請教你因為國際上面臨川普的多變還有我們自己國內的狀況無論是川普2.0或者是我們接下來電價調漲接下來台灣整體的經濟景氣面對的是外有狼內有虎的狀態"},{"start":7099.574,"end":7123.854,"text":"那我們未來怎麼樣因應所以在這一次今年度的整個我們3月20號要召開的禮監事會大家都非常關注因為到底升息或降息或者是升多少這都會是代表接下來景氣大家都會用這個來去做最後的觀察那當然美國的狀況主計處在今年也下修2月份下修我們經濟成長到3.14"},{"start":7127.597,"end":7153.739,"text":"我們光看美國就好了就是說美國過去這一年的通膨就未來一年的通膨會達到4.3%4.3%這個數字其實是非常可怕的所有物價通膨的狀態我們都說超過2已經是一個人民有感更何況它接下來會達到4.3甚至有很多學者專家都說美國市場更可能會引發停滯性的通膨"},{"start":7155.04,"end":7176.239,"text":"那這個美國通膨的影響當然對全世界都會有影響因為包括台灣的物價也會受到衝擊那我想請教總裁你覺得川普在上任之後哪一個政策對台灣的衝擊最大或者是我們要特別關注的我想主要的還是在半導體就是在半導體還是在半導體"},{"start":7181.055,"end":7188.122,"text":"哪一個政策是讓你最驚訝的你覺得在半導體在他的立場回歸到美國優先你覺得衝擊最大當然是在半導體我覺得還是在半導體"},{"start":7200.902,"end":7220.821,"text":"因為就是說為什麼我剛剛也在講我們對美國的順差主要的是資通訊我們怎麼因應你覺得對我們衝擊最大所以你看看就是說你看看就是說川普的在在那個的在最近的時候他都一直講就是說是台灣呢拖走了他的那個半導體的產業"},{"start":7222.523,"end":7230.529,"text":"但是呢我們的台積電說他要去增加投資1000億然後要增加650億了所以之後呢他就改口了他就改口什麼他就說"},{"start":7239.276,"end":7264.067,"text":"台灣呢他就好像很滿意啦他就很滿意而且呢他改口他也不講說我們拖了他的那個對中台但是他下一步他可能隨時會變我再下一個問題目前看起來半導體對我們衝擊是最大那但是下一個包括關稅的出手匯率啊關稅其實都是我們有可能成為下一個目標"},{"start":7264.907,"end":7282.949,"text":"所以因為他的百變隨時想到什麼或下一步他要做什麼我們永遠不會知道所以我們必須要好幾套因應的版本那面對接下來的關稅其他的關稅總裁你覺得台灣面對墨西哥跟加拿大我們會不會成為台灣有沒有可能變成下一個目標當然我們要做準備"},{"start":7284.15,"end":7304.707,"text":"如果我們是下一個目標的話你覺得我們的移椅策略應該是做什麼樣的策略如果說所以呢我就說我們的報告裡面也有談到啊就說在我們十三頁裡面啊就說他除了他對墨西哥對加拿大還有對中國中國大陸的一個擴增關稅那另外呢"},{"start":7305.347,"end":7324.767,"text":"他對醫藥品我們十三類這邊我知道總裁因為我們時間快到了我們的因應策略到底是什麼所以我們在這邊要表達的就是說事實上在這裡面我們的半導體是比較對我們的影響是比較大但是基本上我們出國到美國的半導體不多"},{"start":7327.61,"end":7345.788,"text":"那如果其他關稅增加的話對我們當然有影響這個還會刺激其他的就是說半導體到美國之後它的上下游產業可能也都會跟著走了對我們會有其他的衝擊在那整個經濟的循環包括通膨的影響很多"},{"start":7347.157,"end":7358.149,"text":"企業它可能會減少投資或停看停音在這個階段它可能停看停音它會減少投資造成減少消費包括經濟的蕭條包括我們的供應鏈可能會有移轉的狀況那你覺得"},{"start":7363.234,"end":7389.526,"text":"這個間接對台灣當然有影響那我們的因應你會不會擔心就是說全球化跟自由化的貿易已經死了就以川普這樣的執行方式還有他的思考邏輯我們過去都講全球化自由化你會不會擔心全球化跟自由化已經死了我跟委員報告基本上我還是都是非常相信我們的企業我們的產業因為我們的企業非常靈活"},{"start":7391.007,"end":7409.987,"text":"所以你覺得你反對全球化跟自由化貿易會死你看看就是說在川普1.0的時候事實上川普1.0的時候是我們受益我們也沒有受害只是說他的2.0跟1.0是完全不一樣因為他是比較全面性那你覺得川普的2.0對台灣經濟的動能會不會有衝擊"},{"start":7412.489,"end":7415.272,"text":"以目前來講的話呢到目前為止的話呢我們覺得不要講目前因為經濟都要看中長期中長期有些時候中長期是不大容易去預測的啦"},{"start":7427.643,"end":7446.039,"text":"總裁你是央行總裁你當然要去做準備跟預測啊因為到目前為止呢川普的政策他的實施的具體的一個具體的措施是什麼到目前為止還不是非常的明朗但是總裁我要一下提醒因為這個議題我們在這邊做打住我覺得因為對於接下來緊急整個全世界的緊急台灣的動能"},{"start":7455.367,"end":7462.378,"text":"經濟的影響跟動能我覺得我們還是要有好幾套準備的模式包括我們的通膨的影響"},{"start":7465.154,"end":7478.064,"text":"總裁你會不會覺得說對這些景氣的循環的狀況你是身經百戰但是接下來到底我們去年我稱呼你是Mr."},{"start":7478.064,"end":7484.69,"text":"Surprise因為你有預防性的通膨你做了一個半碼的升息今年跟去年的狀況你覺得類不類似"},{"start":7488.732,"end":7503.896,"text":"基本上我們還是覺得我們的通膨是一直在下來的那現在比較大的一個挑戰是什麼通膨你覺得接下來也會往下降但是明年接下來我們四月份要調電價你有沒有跟經濟部這邊討論過都沒有討論過有啦 大體上我們也知道就是說有討論過"},{"start":7514.359,"end":7518.162,"text":"沒有討厭我沒有這麼大的事情沒有跟你討 講要調25%捏現在調25%捏什麼什麼25%"},{"start":7524.22,"end":7534.01,"text":"變價要調25%好像沒有吧好像不會有沒有跟你討論過那不是25%對不同的版本有沒有一些準備總裁我講不管調幾%對於通膨有一定的影響你同意嗎去年十月就調12.5%都有一定程度的影響"},{"start":7547.083,"end":7560.392,"text":"有啦 有啦 但是呢但是你有沒有預測過他是對企業啦那這一次要調的是對民生喔他對民生 民生的衝擊會比較大一點啦對啊 所以行政院有沒有跟你討論過行政院有沒有跟你討論過"},{"start":7564.835,"end":7583.621,"text":"我們也不必要就說討論了因為我們大體上也知道那你大體知道你是用多少%來預估35%嗎還是12%不過現在據我了解行政院還沒有決定就說要多少而且行政院認為就是說這個是他的那個委員會決定的"},{"start":7585.934,"end":7611.014,"text":"有委員決定就說要這樣我把它結束了我還是要提醒你我覺得內部還是要因為你畢竟是掌握經濟而且這個對通膨影響非常大你去年的升息半碼對抑制通膨我覺得做得非常好因為連續過去三年我們雖然房價也在漲但是物價漲控制的我覺得相對是好的如果行政院"},{"start":7611.895,"end":7622.199,"text":"一直喊說要漲價 要漲到 民生電價要漲到25%如果連 都沒有跟你討論過 我覺得是柏侯 柏侯 柏侯 柏侯 柏侯 柏侯 柏侯 柏侯 柏侯 柏侯 柏侯 柏侯 柏侯 柏侯"},{"start":7642.66,"end":7671.477,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進列席的政府計劃組長 官員會長 觀眾夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請楊總裁有請總裁外匯局蔡局長陳局長還有財經資訊公司林董事長林董事長請總委員早總裁好總裁趁你還沒注意到我趕快進入下一頁請問總裁你認為這三個都市哪一個稱得上是亞洲金融中心"},{"start":7674.937,"end":7696.129,"text":"亞洲金融中心的話我們如果講一般比較會那個的話現在我們應該就是說香港跟新加坡比較但是現在就香港因為香港本身現在所以香港跟新加坡是算啦東京也算吧他算是在亞洲裡面的重要的那這三個地方都有設置資產管理中心嗎"},{"start":7700.298,"end":7711.532,"text":"因為資產管理中心算是亞洲金融中心的一部分的功能那台灣有可能取代哪一個成為亞洲金融中心嗎?"},{"start":7713.525,"end":7736.787,"text":"我想就是說我們不要就是說是取代啦我們不要說取代因為你的發展跟他有些時候不太一樣那不必要就是說是要取代那我們請教一下莊財你念書的時候有寫過做我的志願你的志願有沒有想過你有一天會當總裁有沒有沒有想過沒有想過那你會不會覺得有一天你可能會成為總統"},{"start":7739.312,"end":7754.57,"text":"不要小看啦現在加拿大的總理是誰是前任的總裁啊是是是所以喔太謙虛太客氣過去不該想的事情未來不是沒有可能這一點啊我才會就是說非常非常的謝謝鍾委員"},{"start":7756.633,"end":7772.27,"text":"給我非常大的鼓勵那說實在的你在講的時候呢我為什麼我平常不會笑得那麼大聲我不會笑得那麼大聲但是呢我笑得那麼大聲是說我從來沒有想過這些但是呢委員給我的鼓勵我們人要有志氣啊"},{"start":7777.475,"end":7797.874,"text":"台灣就算不能取代人家成為亞洲金融中心也可以成為一個亞洲的資產管理中心有這個條件吧其實呢在COVID-19之後呢我又再度回到越南這次我去啊有個台商接待我他看說他創造一個新的商業模式怎麼樣呢他在一個商業大樓裡面底下的大賣場啊有一個美食廣場"},{"start":7799.116,"end":7821.698,"text":"這個美食廣場我們要去吃飯不是一個點一個點去付錢沒有 他說進去之前你先弄一個儲值卡我除了一百萬月頓 你要多少錢嗎一百萬月頓沒多少啦 一千五台幣啦然後這個儲值卡呢 我每一攤呢就可以去消費消費完之後呢 我要離開了 他可以把儲值卡再結清那這樣子呢 我去每一攤呢 我也不用再拿月頓去跟他換"},{"start":7822.759,"end":7847.812,"text":"那這個美食廣場還有誰的客人還有樓上的這些上班族的客人你覺得這個商業模式有沒有很特別啊其實我覺得沒有很特別我還想想說不對啊這個小時候我們參加原油會也是這樣子啊拿一百塊的換原油券對不對那去每個攤位消費消費完了之後呢店家拿原油券去換錢是不是這樣差別在哪裡還是有個差別差別是呢"},{"start":7848.912,"end":7863.317,"text":"顧客不能拿原油先把錢換回來而且呢是一張一張的而這個他說我的新模式是用儲值卡對不對對好那這個很像什麼呢往下看這個就很像我們說的亞資中興啊造源投資國家發展方案"},{"start":7863.897,"end":7890.866,"text":"央行支不支持兆元投資國家發展方案那這個雅資中心是不是其中一個重要部分他是不是創造一個讓金融業者跟台灣的這三大比如公共建設長照產業永續產業把台幣的這些產業的投資變成金融商品放到這個雅資中心也歡迎外來的投資來進行對不對好請問最後他不是原油券喔他投資完了之後他沒有用完的話賺到的他要帶走有沒有匯兌的問題會不會有匯兌的問題"},{"start":7894.02,"end":7908.314,"text":"這個雅致中心可能是用美元計價嘛 對不對對好 那我們看看央行怎麼說央行說雅致中心不得涉及匯率外匯商品不開放涉新台幣匯率外匯商品這個非資產管理的障礙你們認為這個不會造成資產管理的障礙為什麼為什麼"},{"start":7912.319,"end":7937.438,"text":"我們在這邊說如果原油券不能換回我的新台幣我就是去參演遊會啊我去弄個儲值卡我去那邊銷貨幹嘛我還買了什麼東西我沒有玩的可以帶走啊如果去做生意我還可以帶走啊是不是這樣所以我先讓央行思考一下你們說未設新台幣匯率的商品你們是開放態度什麼叫開放你反過來說嘛沒有涉及的我是開放有涉及的不允許好往下看"},{"start":7938.439,"end":7964.381,"text":"金管會現在在負責亞資中心他錯的這個圖啊多元產業呢有跟無之間新疆模式跟香港模式他們基本上他們有外資跟金流但是他們沒有什麼沒有產業台灣呢有產業有投資像日本模式台灣模式介乎在這兩者之間結果現在日本新加坡香港被列為觀察匯率的操縱名單你認為台灣如果加入了讓這樣的資產管理中心"},{"start":7965.554,"end":7988.809,"text":"這個有沒有開放外匯跟你們的擔心有沒有關聯應該是沒有關聯那既然沒有擔心被列為匯率操縱觀察名單人家日本、新加坡、香港都可以這樣做了為什麼央行不這樣做事實上剛剛你說原油、原油匯那些那些都是小額的啦那些小額的我跟委員報告就小額的來講我們也是非常自由你看看"},{"start":7995.537,"end":8019.565,"text":"但是我們要做亞洲資產管理中心是兆元兆元你再不弄開放外匯你說的也沒有錯不過就像那個小額的話你看看我們個人我們本來是因為是巨額才不能比照個人有小額的外匯法規去管理是巨額的時候小額的話我們也不會管"},{"start":8020.425,"end":8043.387,"text":"所以就問你巨額的人你不開放或是有部分的鬆綁他沒辦法進行嗎你五百萬一個個人我們就說個人來講五百萬到一千萬我們不要岔題它當然不是研究會也不是一個美食廣場的儲值卡它是一個造源產業的資產管理中心所以請你們外匯局好好去研究一下可不可以可以 下一頁"},{"start":8044.088,"end":8046.47,"text":"好 金管會允許銀行發行穩定幣請問這個跟我們央行的CBDC之間的關聯是什麼"},{"start":8053.34,"end":8078.52,"text":"我想那個穩定幣它可以發行啊跟我們CPTC發行 法幣嘛對不對那穩定幣是業者嘛 它居然是B2B嘛那透過你們的CPTC它去做個連結目前央行沒有時間表 國際上也沒有辦法推動跨境支付嘛所以你們CPTC沒有要做跨境支付對不對 往下看但是呢 韓國的央行要啟動CPTC的零售交易耶它連零售交易都要做了耶"},{"start":8078.8,"end":8095.573,"text":"有沒有他一百萬韓元大概兩萬多台幣他一個電子錢包的概念那請問央行目前有沒有推動類似的四點齁零售交易的一些支付方式有沒有南韓現在有四點嗎"},{"start":8098.352,"end":8101.534,"text":"我們現在試驗階段是先從數位券開始我們先不防CPTC,我們有類似的支付工具,像TWQR"},{"start":8113.468,"end":8137.824,"text":"來那TWQR是什麼來董事長講一下TWQR是什麼跟委員報告TWQR就是台灣的QR code共同的標準好那目前坊間是不是已經有民間自己的很多版本了原來是有很多版本但是現在大家要整合往同一個版本再推進但是它不會只在境內用我們看下一張請總裁過來看民間電子業者插旗韓國日本"},{"start":8138.504,"end":8148.788,"text":"拓日報捷全支付全年的支付逼進韓國這是今天的新聞啊他說進日本跨境電資之後呢開通了這個全支付可以到韓國到日本都可以用"},{"start":8151.701,"end":8176.597,"text":"董事長 你們有沒有應對的對策跟委員報告 我們在韓國在去年的1月就已經開通了所以TWQR也可以 是好 那是不是沒有輸給全資物 我們走在前面往下看所以目前TWQR我們國人出國去日本 韓國 甚至新加坡都可以使用 對不對未來可能新加坡也可以使用有沒有進度 有沒有一定執行時間"},{"start":8177.959,"end":8198.308,"text":"跟委員報告就是說目前到韓國日本都可以那今年呢我們希望日本能夠來台灣使用然後呢再接著推動新加坡也能來台灣使用所以你把我後面要講的也講了總是不能我們觀光客去人家消費我們可以用什麼TWQR人家觀光客來我們消費不能用"},{"start":8199.315,"end":8227.117,"text":"TWQR吧我們有鼓勵他們用對不對更進一步的我們往下看我們看很多潛力TWQR的發展潛力海外旅遊大家想想看去年的速度鏡的旅客人士單單是來自於東南亞的國人出國就快三百萬他們來到台灣也超過將近一百七十萬大概有四百六十萬的規模那以國人來說現在國人出國第一位的是什麼去哪裡去日本"},{"start":8228.288,"end":8256.671,"text":"那其次呢是新南向國家佔了快兩成中國韓國還沒那麼多可是相對的外國的旅客來台灣日本不是第一名喔香港韓國在後面第一名是什麼來自新南向的國家董事長知道了嗎知道這個情況嗎是的好那央行總裁要拜託您對董事長有所要求現在呢我們來看一下往下看現在就是說除了旅客之外另外境外工作者"},{"start":8257.515,"end":8275.735,"text":"現在在台灣的境外工作者來自海外的工作者在台灣的有高達81萬對不對他們也會返鄉消費有沒有可能他們在台灣也弄了TWQR回去到那種國家不是只有台灣的官方可以使用啊他們這些人也可以當地使用有沒有可能"},{"start":8277.674,"end":8304.572,"text":"跟委員報告就是說雙邊要有合作當然這個發展是有可能性的是所以說如果未來國人用TWQR可以到日本、韓國、新加坡使用他們這些國家來到台灣也可以使用那甚至到新南向國家台灣的官方也可以使用連他們的移工在地的家屬也可以因為他們在台灣辦了TWQR之後他們的家人在他們的當地也可以使用有沒有這樣的可能"},{"start":8306.984,"end":8326.501,"text":"總裁最後的結論,因為主席站起來了我的結論就是我的標題,剛剛不讓你看滾動式調整雅致中心的外匯法規,可以嗎?可以啊剛剛我們局長點頭了那TWQR跨國掃碼前進性南向請哲成林董事長財經公司繼續努力可不可以訂個時程表跟計畫給我"},{"start":8328.426,"end":8330.387,"text":"主席 各位委員 初烈席 官員大家好主席 請楊總裁"},{"start":8364.909,"end":8379.159,"text":"我想現在全國的所有一些做貿易一些企業界大家都很關心就是新台幣兌美元匯率的走向我想請教一下"},{"start":8380.291,"end":8394.621,"text":"現在美國總統川普上任了以後那台幣未來的走向究竟是要穩定的曲扁還是要穩定的要升值"},{"start":8397.79,"end":8421.043,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上我都一直在講就是說匯率還是由市場來決定的中央銀行在外匯市場他沒辦法就是說因為他供需所以他要貶的時候你中央銀行不能就說強迫他要升中央銀行所能夠做的"},{"start":8422.315,"end":8440.409,"text":"他要生的時候你也要生,只是中央銀行能夠做的就是說讓他的波動度不要太大,就這樣子而已,所以才會就是說中央銀行主扁喔,對,有可能就是說我們主扁,為什麼?我們要讓他的波動度減緩"},{"start":8441.73,"end":8461.77,"text":"我們是主聲喔也可能我們主聲為什麼我們要讓這個新台幣的升幅呢要能夠它的波動度不要太大就是這樣子而已那既然從你剛剛所說的供需的這個需求來看的話美國總統川普他是美國優先嘛是不是那我們也可以看到台積電啊"},{"start":8462.891,"end":8476.73,"text":"他現在準備要投資多少一千億的美元在美國是不是增加啦增加嘛那表示說他有一千億會匯到美國去所以他需要美元的需求就會比較強"},{"start":8477.871,"end":8503.406,"text":"那也不一定不然他要投資美國他就說四年嘛這個是四年他就說四年所以四年每年要投多少深造大概也是八九千億一千億如果說除以四就一年兩百五十億那兩百五十億我跟委員報告事實上呢台積電他在賺美金他非常會賺"},{"start":8505.032,"end":8532.125,"text":"所以呢也就是說他事實上他不必要在外匯市場去買美金他自己賺的美金他就足夠他到那邊去總裁你的意思是說他以後台積電全世界賺的錢如果賺美金的部分他就不會回台灣不因為我跟委員報告請問他在美國的投資的資本支出他的金流是怎麼樣他的金流就是他的美金賺得啊"},{"start":8532.847,"end":8542.652,"text":"他賺的直接就投美國對 他賺的時候那就投美國所以你這樣講就是錢不會進來台灣啊錢不會進來台灣啊不過我跟那個250億就台積電來講250億不算什麼"},{"start":8552.216,"end":8577.185,"text":"可是對台灣的一些企業講,不要說是美金啊你光是台幣一億兩億,對中小企業影響都很大對,但是台積電它是比較特殊啦因為台積電喔,一個台積電它所賺的美金比那個,比那些的那個什麼,一些的那個那總裁,那台積電每一年賺多少美金?喔,據我瞭解呢,我據我瞭解,好好好,這個我們YHG要"},{"start":8577.847,"end":8597.714,"text":"好 請說台積電在2024年 去年是900億美金左右今年預估會到1000億美金以上 營收是 所以那我請教你他現在台積電 等一下局長你等一下因為你這個途徑可能不要知道他賺了錢 他錢不用匯回台灣嗎就在當地直接投資掉是不是"},{"start":8600.022,"end":8625.97,"text":"根據我們了解啦那他上次的投資他有在美國發債有部分的資金會從會在美國的子公司會發美元的債券那另外一個部分就是每年的營收的成長那當然每年的營收就是剛剛跟委員報告的一年像去年是九百億今年預估會到一千億九百億是台幣還是美金美金美金啊好謝謝總裁那這個數字你就可以知道他是相當龐大的齁台積電"},{"start":8629.005,"end":8634.281,"text":"跑掉了以後對台灣經濟的影響有多大"},{"start":8636.317,"end":8658.668,"text":"台積電對第一個我是覺得啦如果說就一個台積電不好講到這裡的時候我才跟委員報告基本上我們的主管機關也一直在強調就經濟部他說基本上百分之八十的業務還是集中在台灣"},{"start":8659.622,"end":8677.678,"text":"那個是比較低階的啊 比較低階的慢慢的 高階的 通通會移到美國去啊你不信的話 你聽那個美國總統川普講的話他是老太太啊 甚至還講到地緣關係發生變化的時候你都沒在怕啦"},{"start":8681.721,"end":8694.741,"text":"但是我覺得就是說我們的主管機關一直在強調台積電的A5的重心還是在台灣這是第一個第二個我們它的一個主要的研發中心還是在台灣"},{"start":8697.945,"end":8712.771,"text":"總裁那我請問他所有的技術跟人才過去美國以後以後美國的員工大概有多少人這個我不曉得他要成立一個研發中心在那邊他的研發中心據我了解為什麼美國總統川普他會說這些都是被偷走的"},{"start":8721.882,"end":8725.065,"text":"不是 他只是說我個人覺得啦川普總統他這麼說呢是他的一個話術"},{"start":8733.667,"end":8760.781,"text":"它是一個話術它是一個策略那基本上我都總覺得事實上我們台灣的這個半導體我們的直通訊這個是美國它最需要的所以美國在這一方面所以它就半導體這個部分它就盯著台灣因為我們在這二項我們的強項從以上的數據其實只是冰山的一角你有沒有算過"},{"start":8762.762,"end":8786.16,"text":"台積電過去以後它周邊的相關的周邊的這些上下游大概有幾家會過去不過我總覺得就是說當你在做國際化的時候你的選擇當然我在這方面我不是專家我只是說我個人的直覺"},{"start":8788.662,"end":8803.514,"text":"因為從國際貿易的一個觀點來看的話他那邊去接近市場接近他的客戶我總覺得這個也是很好第二個你要想想看事實上我們台灣第一個我們的土地也不夠"},{"start":8805.051,"end":8826.567,"text":"那美國他苦地大所以就是說他的資源台積電到美國去投資的時候他也可以利用到美國的資源當然美國的資源有些地方是成本會比較高總裁剛本席請教的是說台積電過去了以後周邊的上下游的企業"},{"start":8827.788,"end":8848.789,"text":"還有一些資本都已經過去慢慢過去這個也不一定請問這個也不一定為什麼呢已經就有一定的因為它過去有一些做無成事的通通過去了還有上下游周邊的很多都會過去有沒有算過這些如果說一起過去的話它對台灣的影響會有多大"},{"start":8850.349,"end":8874.6,"text":"我想企業是很會算的而且我總覺得他們是很靈活的據我了解現在就是說要到美國去的那些大部分都是在墨西哥墨西哥他就說在美國他也有產生墨西哥他是比較龐大那現在就是說因為他要對墨西哥扣稅所以他也就是說我們台商在墨西哥那邊他就想就是說"},{"start":8875.1,"end":8900.568,"text":"那如果說在這樣情況之下 在關稅的情況之下他可能把他的一個作業線 要挪到美國去所以你的意思是說都沒關係就對了不是這樣子 不過企業他的一個國際化我總覺得這一條路還是要走的我們一看到台積電一去美國的時候就發現 你有沒有發現一個事情台積電股票漲還低"},{"start":8904.335,"end":8921.949,"text":"1200多塊馬上跌破1000塊市場告訴了總裁什麼總裁告訴你什麼大家的害怕完全就展現出來了這還有一個影響請問台積電是台灣的護國神山你知道它的市值有多少"},{"start":8929.862,"end":8932.166,"text":"他的柿子,我現在有三條所以他每長一點"},{"start":8938.742,"end":8962.092,"text":"對台股的影響有多大?他是8點嘛所以你看台灣現在股市已經連番下跌這幾天跌很多不過我們的股我跟委員報告我們的2萬多到目前為止2萬多還好啦那總裁台積電跑掉了以後你覺得台股2萬點是不是常態?"},{"start":8963.816,"end":8973.782,"text":"這個我不敢預測因為我不是股市專家台積電跑掉了以後台股有沒有機會上看三萬點"},{"start":8976.583,"end":8995.383,"text":"這個我不曉得,我不是股市的專家這只是一個代表對他的經濟未來的期待跟感覺就好像黃金國際的首飾一樣,本席在七年前"},{"start":8997.369,"end":9014.554,"text":"六年前五年前三年前還有去年多次建議央行總裁要不要考慮買進黃金總裁的回答是我建議的時候是每盎司1270塊的時候現在黃金每盎司多少錢"},{"start":9025.132,"end":9045.122,"text":"我在去年的那個我也有跟委員報告啦我也佩服委員啦但是呢我也說但是中央銀行的考量是又跟一般的不大一樣這個不考量那個虛擬貨幣你現在態度支不支持虛擬貨幣總統所講的五大虛擬貨幣他要作為什麼戰略儲備"},{"start":9052.576,"end":9053.485,"text":"現在你是不是也要跟進"},{"start":9055.035,"end":9082.332,"text":"到目前為止我們是不會啦不過我們會密切關注啦你現在支不支持台灣做虛擬貨幣因為那個什麼叫戰略儲備的這個名詞這個東西虛擬的比特幣還有其他的虛擬貨幣是不是能夠當作戰略儲備這個我到目前為止我還是稍微有一點Question啦稍微Question啦"},{"start":9082.512,"end":9103.299,"text":"希望你多考量啊但是你不要違背川普啊你不要忤逆川普啊全世界的潮流在改變的時候我們還要顧不知風嗎我建議你虛擬貨幣比特幣的時候是一枚六千塊美金現在多少了多少"},{"start":9104.56,"end":9118.077,"text":"之前漲到十萬塊美金一枚我只是提醒央行世界在變的時候我們一定要顧不知風嗎世界在改變的時候我們沒有一點檢討或思考的空間嗎"},{"start":9122.221,"end":9132.849,"text":"新台幣的數字貨幣什麼時候要推出我們這個會期還在等待謝謝羅委員的質詢羅委員每次報名牌央行總算不聽大家可以聽啦大家可以聽就會賺啦好 我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":9751.809,"end":9755.811,"text":"向委員報告我們繼續開會下一位質詢請黃珊珊委員質詢請現在主席有請總裁楊總裁請"},{"start":9780.274,"end":9801.754,"text":"黃委員長總幹長我想今天大家都很關心就看到央行的報告非常的完整但是接下來台灣面對的可能很多新的挑戰那主要是昨天總預算案覆議沒有完成所以電價包括撥補的錢可能沒有辦法到位台電"},{"start":9803.642,"end":9831.052,"text":"3月28號要開電價審議委員會總裁去年此時因為當時3月21號央行禮監事會預計電價可能會調漲所以形成高通膨的預期所以提高了半碼那這一次下個禮拜央行又要開禮監事會了那你認為電價會在你的禮監事會有可能有做所謂升息的打算嗎"},{"start":9833.921,"end":9850.895,"text":"升息是由我們的理事來決定的那基本上我們去年12月的時候我們是估測說我們的通膨就是說是CPI是1089"},{"start":9852.256,"end":9863.538,"text":"1.89還不到2所以有沒有可能在電價調漲之後會超過2那如果說是對就是說會接近2類為可能會升高於所以通膨可能會比我們預期的高不過我總覺得長就那個來講的話我們的通膨是慢慢在下來的"},{"start":9879.521,"end":9901.998,"text":"因為前一陣子因為疫情的關係因為有物料的關係因為其他的相關戰爭的關係所以看起來你有很大篇幅在說川普新政我想請問總裁因為全世界都不知道川普下一步會怎麼做所以其實是一個高度不確定是沒有錯他的新政你認為說他會舒緩通膨還是加劇通膨"},{"start":9905.514,"end":9919.464,"text":"就一般市場來看的話市場大部分都會認為是它會加劇通膨因為加了關稅嘛加了關稅不太可能不漲價然後美國人民的生活可能更辛苦但是它又要"},{"start":9920.525,"end":9937.25,"text":"課高關稅讓美國人民不用繳稅這個政策實在是有點特別但是一樣如果說會加劇通膨加劇通膨的情況下台灣也會受到影響因為我們的關稅也會被他加然後我們也可能要加他的關稅 是嗎"},{"start":9939.95,"end":9959.248,"text":"對我們的通膨的影響美國如果說他加關稅那事實上我們報告也有講到就是說他現在我們比較在我們的那個第幾頁這邊我們也談到他加徵特別是對我們的那個什麼我們的所以對我們的通膨有沒有影響"},{"start":9960.71,"end":9981.511,"text":"基本上我們在這邊影響不大你認為影響不大接下來就是我們預期的經濟成長是3點多美國看起來有很多的人說美國川普也說他可能會經過正痛期不排除下修請問我們的經濟成長率有可能受到影響而下修嗎"},{"start":9983.152,"end":9987.515,"text":"我們的經濟成長率以目前是3.14%國內外的機構是差不多3.04%如果說美國的經濟下修的時候,台灣的經濟也會受到影響"},{"start":10002.463,"end":10020.456,"text":"第二個部分就是最近最熱門的話題也是大概我將全世界的經濟市場都受到很大的影響是3月6號川普簽署了行政命令把美國政府要求他成立比特幣的成為戰略儲備這是前所未有的所以我想問一下總裁"},{"start":10021.436,"end":10038.041,"text":"對台灣來說對央行來說我們一直把虛擬貨幣當成一個高投資高風險的相關的所謂的商品交易現在美國這樣子的做法你認為我們要怎麼樣去看待未來對於比特幣對於虛擬貨幣央行的立場"},{"start":10042.309,"end":10069.347,"text":"我覺得我跟委員報告還是你還是認為它是高風險我到目前為止沒有辦法成為正常的運作但是對一個全世界最大的美國它把它變成戰略儲備就是一個很大很大的變革所以我們要怎麼去看待如果說就這個戰略儲備的這個定義來看的話戰略儲備就是因為它要有信心它才會儲備在那邊跟黃金一樣"},{"start":10072.368,"end":10097.859,"text":"這個東西是虛的他幹嘛儲備表示美國已經把它定性成為一個可以讓人民或者是在戰爭的時候他可以拿來安定人心的東西我們是不是這樣想的還是我們還是把它當成你們只是投機的商品到目前為止我也不是說那個比特幣這是投機的我們只是說它是一個價格"},{"start":10098.479,"end":10119.255,"text":"波動非常大 價格波動非常大當它進入了所謂美國戰略儲備之後它其實現在的價格是回跌第二個因為放在那裡大家反而對於虛擬貨幣要有新的認識我說立場很簡單我們不可能自外於世界所以總裁這是一個未來的世界它必須要被正視"},{"start":10120.196,"end":10146.882,"text":"接下來金管會也會成立虛擬資產的專法在台灣的虛擬資產管理會往前走一步所以我必須要現在這個時間點請央行的總裁在虛擬貨幣已經成為美國戰略儲備的同時我們怎麼樣去面對這個我們從來未知的世界尤其是戰略儲備將來是不是在台灣我們開放了虛擬資產交易平台以後"},{"start":10147.822,"end":10169.317,"text":"所有的業者他必須要做法幣的儲備一樣要做虛幣的儲備但是虛幣如果我們沒有相關的存款保不像我們有存保公司它可能將來會產生所謂的市場的混亂甚至倒閉所以虛擬的儲備可能也是我們將來必須要走的路同樣的央行這邊"},{"start":10170.765,"end":10177.567,"text":"可以協助或幫忙金管會要求這些未來的虛幣業者他們除了儲蓄實體的貨幣之外也必須儲備所謂的他們的虛幣而儲備虛幣就成為一個很重要"},{"start":10187.65,"end":10201.436,"text":"維持市場秩序的重要的工作就像當年很多銀行倒閉 擠兌所以成立了存保公司總裁 你認為將來台灣有沒有必要有可能要成立虛幣的存保公司"},{"start":10203.632,"end":10230.681,"text":"委員事實上我覺得委員的分析是沒有錯這是一定會來的只是什麼時候到我們要面對這個議題我們要面對這個議題所以我希望總裁從今天開始研議這個議題第二個虛幣要開始開放在台灣管理了他們業者已經要正式合法登記了接下去一定會發生有人倒閉了虛幣沒辦法付的時候我們怎麼辦如果"},{"start":10231.281,"end":10240.351,"text":"美國政府已經做了所謂的貨幣儲存戰略儲備它一定有它的市場意義跟價值台灣面對開放的市場"},{"start":10242.478,"end":10266.324,"text":"世界的競爭我們不可能自外於這個世界好嗎這也是可能總裁必須面對這些我們從來沒有碰過的問題是是沒有錯沒有錯而且呢我也想我希望你在一兩個月之內告訴我一下你們跟金管會有沒有針對這邊相關未來開放市場以後這些問題可能我們現在都要做好準備好好"},{"start":10267.624,"end":10290.852,"text":"我們目前我們是來協助他把這個專法通過了以後一定會發生倒閉的狀況下沒有辦法兌現的時候那時候的消費者權益的保護現在就必須要開始準備加上川普已經把它列為世界上面重要的儲備貨幣我覺得我們不能"},{"start":10293.653,"end":10317.815,"text":"小看這件事好不好因為它比一般的貨幣更好貨幣呢美金可以一直不斷的硬美鈔不斷的硬但是虛幣有它的穩定性因為它的總量是管制的好嗎第二個現在全世界國際清算銀行都要求各國希望大家都能夠用AI掌握經濟資訊請問這是央行現在正在做的事嗎"},{"start":10318.84,"end":10339.17,"text":"人工智慧人工智慧事實上就人工智慧來講我們各個產業對AI的應用事實上如火如荼的在所以我們也算是跟上了我們也是中央銀行也是不會有任何的落後對人工智慧你大概也跑不掉了你沒有應用的話將來就是輸給人家沒有錯第三個部分時間暫停我們請財經公司"},{"start":10348.813,"end":10353.559,"text":"最近LiPay已經要申請電子支付了嘛"},{"start":10354.688,"end":10382.006,"text":"所以接下去我們財經公司有建制共同支付的TWQR是不是LiPay這麼大的支付系統也應該趕快加入跟委員報告我們希望他加入希望他加入因為他現在正在申請走程序還有一段時間但是財經公司可以先去完成這件事情我們希望LiPay成為你們的系統之一才不會變成你們有一個又獨立的在外面好嗎"},{"start":10382.766,"end":10404.88,"text":"是的第二個你們現在推廣到日本跟韓國有沒有考慮去南向跟委員報告有的但是就是我們的推廣的方式就根據國人跟在出國的是啊新南向是我們政府的重要政策新加坡都已經跟泰國印度馬來西亞印尼都已經做好簽約我們目前只有日本跟韓國"},{"start":10405.68,"end":10427.574,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在也正跟新加坡在磋商當中我們希望今年會有一個結果好 把你的工作跟時程告訴我們因為國人喜歡去東北亞但是也很喜歡去東南亞是的好嗎好 謝謝總裁好 謝謝洪委員的質詢下一位請林思敏委員質詢請"},{"start":10436.929,"end":10440.031,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請楊總裁林委員早好 總裁早 總裁我想本席今天就將全國民眾最關心的幾項國內外的議題 包含川普上台政府如何因應還有烏俄戰爭仍然持續這樣的國際情勢我們台灣應該如何面對來向總裁就教"},{"start":10467.048,"end":10480.216,"text":"根據央行在去年12月19號發布的經濟預測去年的經濟成長率上修到4.25%今年則預測大概是3.13%同時中研院經濟所也預測今年的成長率大概是3.1%"},{"start":10490.302,"end":10502.85,"text":"而關於貨幣的調整央行也已經連續三次維持基準率大概是在2%不變我想請問說我們今年下修的原因是什麼"},{"start":10508.476,"end":10529.012,"text":"經濟成長率今年會下修的原因是什麼事實上我覺得我有看過那個因為我們現在我們在3月20號我們會有另外一個focus但是我覺得主計總署他下修的一個"},{"start":10531.074,"end":10558.909,"text":"讓我知道的就是說他下修的一個很重要的一個因素是在於他的那個什麼存貨的調整存貨的調整對存貨調整也就是說他的民間的投資的這個部分呢不像他上一次所預期的那麼的高是因為存貨調整他本身呢本身是屬於民間投資的部分"},{"start":10559.409,"end":10573.886,"text":"總裁我想這個當然是或許他下修的原因之一但是我告訴你依據這個主席總署他在2月26號他發布國內經濟預測表示是因為立法院"},{"start":10574.827,"end":10597.941,"text":"三減預算會削弱成長的動能因此下修今年經濟成長率到3.14%跟他原先預測的數減少了大概0.15%所以我想請教總裁是說這個主計總署他說調降GDP的理由是因為立法院三減預算"},{"start":10599.73,"end":10613.702,"text":"您同意嗎?你覺得這個因素要去考量下去,他這樣的講法成立嗎?是啦,你們不是也有一張表嗎?有一張表,對。"},{"start":10615.764,"end":10628.076,"text":"對就是說我看他的那個表他的表裡面除了剛剛我所講的就是說他的存貨的調整以外民間的消費政府的支出的這個部分"},{"start":10634.366,"end":10650.548,"text":"主財 主財我這樣好了啦 主財其實我比較關心的是說他講的其中一個因素就是因為我們立法院刪減了這次的一個預算所以也是造成說我們成長動能的削弱的原因"},{"start":10652.27,"end":10660.594,"text":"根據我們的資料我所掌握的我想請教總裁的我的意思就是說他這樣的說法說經過刪減後會影響整個我們政府未來的投資以及消費而導致GDP的下降剛才你也提到本月20號將會央行要召開理事會"},{"start":10680.143,"end":10698.938,"text":"所以央行會有新的2025年就今年的GDP的預測所以這個如果在20號的理事會到時候會不會將三讀後的政府總預算的金額的結果也列為我們預測的因素之一是"},{"start":10700.341,"end":10720.916,"text":"我想剛剛我們如果看主席總署的這個表是沒有錯他也講到政府支出的這個部分他是下修了0.08那存後這邊民間的投資也有下修那公營的也有下修0.01那這個是主要還有政府的消費也下修了0.01"},{"start":10722.257,"end":10742.916,"text":"這個是導致了他的那個這個我了解我可以一直說因為他一直強調說是因為立法院刪減總預算的一個結果那我們呢所以未來你們在20號的央行的理事會您認為會考量這個因素嗎因為我覺得這是非常他這個主計總書的說法是非常不正確的"},{"start":10743.857,"end":10764.443,"text":"因為今年總預算通過的數額是歷史新高兩兆九千兩百四十八億比去年增加了一千三百六十八億創歷史的新高你竟然講說會影響政府的投資及消費而導致GDP的下降"},{"start":10766.322,"end":10770.945,"text":"這個說法正確嗎?不過根據他的這個數據來看的話0.08加上0.01的0.09再加上0.01就將近是0.1啦他上一次是3.29嘛"},{"start":10784.993,"end":10813.442,"text":"所以他把他下修到0.15%他本身的政府的這個部分他就下修0.1%是啦但是總裁我的重點不在這裡他一直講說是因為立法院刪減總預算造成他GDP要下修我說這樣的說法其實是不正確的我也希望說央行在20號的理事會你對於這個重新評估我們今年的GDP的下修我們會"},{"start":10814.142,"end":10831.813,"text":"第一個我們會再重新評估我們的但是你要把這個因素你要列入嗎這個根本是不成立的嘛因為這個數據呢這個數據呢他雖然就是說是就說是在這裡沒關係啦這個我是表達我的意見是是是我想另外因為時間的關係我再請問你一下"},{"start":10834.755,"end":10852.38,"text":"因為在昨天的復議案的質詢中卓院長表示說台電千億撥補如果落空台電將被迫調電價所以我想請問如果說台電因為錯誤的能源政策而在不給補助的情況之下來調漲電價"},{"start":10854.744,"end":10869.997,"text":"那麼是否會造成萬物齊漲就通膨的一個壓力應該是不會就是說萬物齊漲也不會你是認為不會所以央行後續會有升息的壓力嗎因為就是說我們上一年我們的我們的預測是1.89"},{"start":10873.059,"end":10879.304,"text":"如果說我們考量到電價的調整還有其他的工用事業的匯率的調整我們大概也會接近2%"},{"start":10887.791,"end":10899.707,"text":"所以就是因為台電調漲電價會造成我們整個CPI的年增率會增加所以大概就會上漲到大概就會破2%左右你預期就2%左右不會再繼續往上嗎"},{"start":10905.855,"end":10927.193,"text":"應該如果說直接的直接的影響是這樣子那如果說他有說什麼通膨逸期的心理我再想這一次應該不會了我想我希望你的預測只是準的我們再看一下國外的情勢就是川普上任之後關於美國在新的經貿政策所帶來的影響"},{"start":10928.214,"end":10949.471,"text":"川普的經貿政策被我們公認為影響我國經濟的成長的重要變數包含台積電我們剛剛一直提到也已經確定要去赴美投資一千億美元所以央行目前有沒有制定哪些具體的因應策略以降低因應國際形勢的外部不確定性對我國經濟與匯率的一個影響"},{"start":10956.917,"end":10982.042,"text":"以及在全球經濟存在下行風險的情況之下未來是否有需要調整貨幣政策以確保我國經濟的穩定性還有台積電如果赴美的新投資是否會影響我國未來我們的GDP的成長對台灣經濟發展的前景會有何影響我想你現在不用用口頭回答我這幾個問題請你用書面來答覆我"},{"start":10984.722,"end":11010.409,"text":"另外我們針對央行房市管制的措施央行決定連續三次維持基準利率在2%不變也會推出新的房市的管制措施到今年2月底央行已經進行專案經檢總共170次所以請問央行在進行7次的調整選擇信用管制的措施後"},{"start":11011.609,"end":11022.575,"text":"現在暫時沒有新的管制措施這是否意味說央行已經認為國內的房價以及房市的交易已經達到央行可以接受的平穩狀況"},{"start":11025.989,"end":11054.308,"text":"我們在報告裡面我們有談到就是說基本上呢我們第一個就是說疫情心理是有下來了第二個呢它的那個集中度是集中度就是說我們金融機構放款給這個不動產的這個集中度呢慢慢的再下來了37點多現在下降下來另外呢就是說給無自用自宅的資源呢慢慢再上升了"},{"start":11054.948,"end":11074.98,"text":"這個有達到我們初步的一個效果但是我們現在目前我們有兩個方向第一個因為我們在去年八月的時候我們希望在他們在一年之內做這個資源的一個調整那這個我們每季每次都會我這樣問你最後的結論就是說未來因為現在你說已經達到平穩的效果"},{"start":11078.902,"end":11092.827,"text":"對 所以未來有沒有可能會有第八次的新聞管制措施我們滾動式檢討 滾動式檢討好 以上好 謝謝林思敏委員的諮詢 下一位請李官成委員諮詢好 你先站著 所以說夠了嗎 可以"},{"start":11110.273,"end":11111.578,"text":"謝謝主席那我們請楊總裁"},{"start":11116.315,"end":11138.046,"text":"跟那個委員總裁今天被尋一個早上其實也辛苦了謝謝你那個總裁去年的這個3月的時候其實我們在這邊也質詢過總裁那我覺得這個時間好像有倒流到這個去年這個時光去年的3月的這個李建勢央行的李建勢會議記者會上"},{"start":11140.327,"end":11162.736,"text":"然後這個總裁就說當時升息半碼主要是為了抑制就講去年4月電價上漲引發的國內通膨的預期的心理那當然這個升息半碼會讓市場覺得有點surprise但是這是合理的一個決定那我記得到時候大家在質詢的時候那外界有給總裁一個封號叫做Mr."},{"start":11162.736,"end":11163.777,"text":"Surprise"},{"start":11164.777,"end":11187.603,"text":"那我覺得說這是去年三月的事情怎麼到了今年三月份我們在討論這個事情好像有這個既視感好像跟去年的這個時候也差不多第一個國內今年的一二月呢消費者物價指數CPI呢平均年增率超過百分之二的這個通貨警戒線第二個呢海鐵呢恐怕會調漲的部分的費用那加上呢"},{"start":11188.783,"end":11215.1,"text":"這個台電的兩千億的預算被債項砍掉了所以電價也面臨了調漲的壓力所以後續物價有可能有上漲的一些壓力第三個就是說美國川普總統上任那會加徵關稅然後聯準會的貨幣政策有可能會造成CPI的指數無法回落到1.5%以下所以本席再請教總裁"},{"start":11216.161,"end":11229.998,"text":"那這個外界在預期說下個禮拜的這個央行的禮監事會議之後是否會採取這個預防性的申請因為好像去年的這個情況跟現在的這個情況好像也差不多"},{"start":11233.931,"end":11253.087,"text":"總裁你不覺得好像我去年講的這些東西跟今年的遇到的狀況好像有點類似我覺得委員掌握我們整個的邏輯跟說法還有整個經濟金融的情況掌握得非常好"},{"start":11253.968,"end":11278.444,"text":"那我想第一個我們還是由委員我們的理事來決定當然了來決定那當然就是說委員在講就說那個去年的情況跟今年的情況好像是有一點類似對啊你那時候就是怕說會有預期性的這個通膨的心理嘛所以就升息的辦嘛所以去年這個情況跟今天情況好像差不多啊不過我想我們3月20號就會揭曉"},{"start":11285.899,"end":11314,"text":"那我請教總裁現在這個情況跟去年的情況有沒有有點類似是有一點類似有點類似那這檔案好像呼之欲出不過也就是說我們要想就是說雖然就是說情況有一點類似不過第一個我們也會考慮到就是說我們的雖然就是說這個通膨會上修但是雖然是在2%左右那我們要不要很擔心這個是第一個"},{"start":11314.901,"end":11339.176,"text":"第二個我們長期還是認為我們的通膨還是有下來的一個趨勢那我們是不是也要考量第二個我們也會考量到現在的不確定性不管是對通膨的不確定性或是對經濟的不確定性我們必須要更關心它"},{"start":11340.339,"end":11350.616,"text":"那其實我聽總裁這樣講如果真的下禮拜開會有升息辦嘛我覺得大概也沒有這麼 surprise 是不是"},{"start":11351.96,"end":11374.087,"text":"不過就是說因為在這邊因為是理事共同來討論的我在這邊好像也不便多說那剛才總裁有提到很多次提到這個不確定性我剛才在答覆其他的立委的時候也提到這個有關川普總統上台之後那其實去年的11月我也問過"},{"start":11375.727,"end":11404.89,"text":"這個總裁那時候川普當選那我就問總裁我就說這個川普當選的心情會怎麼樣那總裁那時候的回答是說呢這個政策是不容易預測那就是有不確定性那所以呢這個市場金融市場如果有這個不確定性呢就是一個很大的問題那我看這個總裁今天報告也很多次出現這個不確定性那經過了這一個半年再來看那這個不確定性還是很高嗎事實上呢"},{"start":11406.249,"end":11420.406,"text":"所以我們在這邊第六頁這邊有講到就是說那個時候呢都對川普的交易呢非常樂觀所以你看碰碰碰他美國的這些的數據包括股市啦美元啦還有那個公債的利率啊都是"},{"start":11421.147,"end":11438.446,"text":"表達非常對美國非常的樂觀不過呢最近呢我想委員知道他現在的這個樂觀的情緒呢是慢慢在correction但是呢他的correction呢我個人解讀啊只是說是恢復到9月以前的"},{"start":11439.447,"end":11460.951,"text":"所以沒有就是說是特別的壞也沒有就是說特別的壞所以現在市場有一股認為就是說美國好像現在要進入衰退期事實上這是一個對於樂觀的預期現在是一個correction也就是現在是cool down的時候"},{"start":11461.611,"end":11476.636,"text":"先是一個擴盪那擴盪呢擴盪其實跟去年九月其實預期是差不多啦當初的預期會比較高所以這個就是說人類的心理投資人的一個心理就是這樣市場的心理就是這樣子"},{"start":11477.256,"end":11506.096,"text":"那我請教一下台積電的問題我剛剛很多委員都提到那其實台積電加碼投資美國一千億美元那台積電的董事長魏哲嘉其實還有提到他說先進的研發中心都是在台灣不論是兩奈米1.6奈米1.4奈米甚至一奈米都是在台灣是真正的研發中心那台積電在美國的研發中心規模大概是一千人那他主要是做什麼呢"},{"start":11506.596,"end":11533.242,"text":"生產線的製程優化跟我們剛才提到的那個所謂的這個真正研發中心是不一樣的那美國台商的會長韓如柏呢他這兩天呢有一個演講川普關稅台灣基金片那他有提到說呢川普呢總統一直在強調半導體產業對美國未來的重要性那中國大陸呢也知道這個弱點而且試圖利用它最近就指控呢這個"},{"start":11535.142,"end":11558.829,"text":"中國指控台灣把台積電當作伴手禮送給他人煽動本來就已經緊張的國內情勢這不是只有共產黨在講我看很多在野黨在講台積電會變成美積電那我再請教一下因為也有一些學者提到說這個台積電加碼投資一千億會造成衝擊到台灣的會市那請教一下會有這個衝擊嗎"},{"start":11561.233,"end":11570.14,"text":"所以我剛剛事實上我們外匯局也有去請教過台積電他的財務處基本上就我所了解的"},{"start":11578.067,"end":11605.485,"text":"對匯市因為他就是說要多增加一千億的投資一千億的投資剛剛我同仁也在講就是說事實上也不是一次到位對因為他是四年也就是說一年是兩百五十億一年如果說就用這樣評論但是台積電很會賺錢而且他賺的都是外幣都是美元所以我剛剛我同仁也有去請教他們他們一年的營收是將近一千億美元"},{"start":11606.546,"end":11624.061,"text":"所以說你看看它的營收那麼的龐大所以對外市場我覺得應該是我認為是不會有影響我想央行總裁講話這個份量就夠因為外界有一些人說將台積電去投資會衝擊到台灣的會市"},{"start":11629.326,"end":11641.874,"text":"會是如果說以我們現在所掌握的數據還有包括他們告訴我們的基本上也就是說像他1000例而且你看他的1000例事實上他也可以在美國他也可以在美國籌資對"},{"start":11643.695,"end":11663.537,"text":"它也可以在那邊籌資還有包括它本身的營收又那麼龐大所以我總覺得對我們的外市場的一個衝突不過我也會跟委員報告啦事實上呢我們每天對於我們的廠商的一個會市這個結構結束我們都會密切的注意它"},{"start":11664.158,"end":11690.94,"text":"有啦 我也看到你們報告遊戲我們每天每天都是注意這個去年的主會主要是這個賣匯主要是這個主匯啦就是這個主貶啦怕這個新台幣貶太多啦效果也還不錯啦相對其他的這個亞洲國家來講剩下一點時間我請教總裁就是說這個賴總統提到說這個五百元的紙鈔有可能會做改版"},{"start":11691.781,"end":11720.432,"text":"那甚至會做這一個紀念幣那我問一下這個目前有在做這個籌備的工作嗎我們對於就是說這個對於這個就是說我們的這個就是說我們的這一次那我先講那個紙擦好了對我們不是我們有在規劃就是說用紀念幣或紀念鈔的一個方式紀念幣特別是紀念幣這個部分我們要用這樣來"},{"start":11721.352,"end":11738.631,"text":"紀念碑大概時程是到哪時候?我們現在就還正在規劃紫超改版有想過嗎?紀念超現在是沒有所以目前就朝著紀念碑的方式你們要掌握一下時程"},{"start":11741.072,"end":11758.657,"text":"這個十二強是去年11月的事情那你們至少今年要把它做出來啊不然明年又變經典賽了啊我們盡量啦 有沒有辦法今年做出來這十二強的經典賽我們也是希望啦你們也是希望 朝著目標來做好不好對對對好 謝謝李委員的質詢下一位請王世堅委員質詢"},{"start":11767.501,"end":11772.703,"text":"我們現在開始可以發便當各位在這裡使用的話可以謝謝主席我請楊總裁來 總裁請"},{"start":11786.323,"end":11787.704,"text":"我們所有部會當中我們中央銀行"},{"start":11805.55,"end":11824.31,"text":"跟金管會是在穩定我們國內財經最重要的兩大重症而且央行跟金管會到現在為止這個表現確實可圈可點那麼我去年的"},{"start":11826.628,"end":11842.088,"text":"上個會期12月份的質詢我針對金管會我有提到說這個要趕快去查查就是是不是融資租賃公司他們會成為"},{"start":11843.61,"end":11862.891,"text":"我們對於不動產放款就是變成打房的一個破口那我這個質詢之後這個質詢之後當然這個經國二他們有趕快發函他們就有發函要求各銀行針對"},{"start":11866.314,"end":11892.648,"text":"這個融資的資金用途那必須詢問去防止杜絕這個破口他們是在12月13號發的函那我比較感到有興趣的是12月19號我們央行的理監事會議裡面結果也有理事他也提出這樣的疑慮"},{"start":11893.922,"end":11904.358,"text":"那也就是說在金管會已經有行文跟銀行要求也查查之後那我們"},{"start":11905.885,"end":11929.617,"text":"理政事會裡面理事也有提出這個疑問那我認為說是不是我們的看法不但一致而且你們有發現什麼樣的新的問題新的破口是我們央行跟金管會必須特別再去查查再去強調的你的看法呢"},{"start":11930.057,"end":11947.168,"text":"是有那個報告委員就是說我們的我們理事就是說在我們上一次的禮監事會也有提到也有提到就是說這個破口那不過呢上一次那個他講到的這個破口呢主要的他是在講基層金融"},{"start":11949.321,"end":11964.174,"text":"就我那個榮譽會信用部還有信用合作社這個部分他講的那個破口是在這個部分他講的破口是在這個部分而且事實上在講這個破口之後我們有去了解"},{"start":11964.835,"end":11966.476,"text":"而且我們也有專案經檢,我們也有對這個部分,而且我們也有發函給農業金庫,因為是農業金庫,是那個農委會之下的農業金庫,對,農委的信用部,對對對,"},{"start":11986.502,"end":12002.181,"text":"因為農會金庫他對這個農會信用部還有就是農會特別是農會信用部他們有那個檢查不是檢查權他們有監管的責任所以就這個部分我們有去更進一步的了解"},{"start":12003.915,"end":12022.191,"text":"因為我們這一個底線我們要求銀行金融機構要求貸款不動產不能超過存款總額百分之三十這個底線是絕對要簽收的所以這最可能的大金額的做口"},{"start":12022.791,"end":12049.669,"text":"那是這些融資註定公司因為他們這金額太龐大了動輒都百億以上那這個農業信用部雖然金額不大但是也會是因為他的加速多啦那這個部分就請你要繼續繼續監督他們那第二個我憂慮的就是說我們消費物價指數CPI啦CPI當然我們在2月份1.58是已經"},{"start":12054.152,"end":12063.658,"text":"這個創下這四年來新低但是不可否認的我們一二月還是一樣比去年同期還是漲這裡面"},{"start":12066.741,"end":12093.737,"text":"去年今年的數字不管漲跌都已經達到通膨的警戒線尤其食物的方面食物的這個部分竟然高達3.98這麼高高達3.98那3.98幾乎啊我們全民尤其是上班族外食族的朋友們那真的是"},{"start":12095.418,"end":12108.953,"text":"苦不堪言啦苦不堪言所以我一直搞不懂的就是說為什麼啦為什麼我們對於這個通膨尤其是食物為什麼對"},{"start":12110.818,"end":12124.335,"text":"食物通膨沒辦法抑制那個總裁您看法呢我跟委員報告就是說外食還有房租外食跟房租是屬於服務類"},{"start":12126.227,"end":12151.732,"text":"是屬於服務類我們有商品類跟服務類像說蔬菜水果那個是商品類外食跟房租這個是服務類服務類不管就是在台灣或是在外國都有同樣的一個特性它要調降下來都會有sticky"},{"start":12152.512,"end":12174.609,"text":"就是僵固性所以就是說他上去了以後呢要回來的時候呢他會慢慢的不會像商品類一樣的商品類你看看像商品類我們商品類下跌的速度就比較快但是呢服務類的這個部分呢他就比較sticky他的特性就是比較僵固這個規律在服務類當然這個就會確實比較不容易但是但是"},{"start":12182.715,"end":12204.372,"text":"我們雖然是比日韓低是優於日韓但是我們比歐美是高那如果純粹以服務類這個項目來看的話那歐美的薪資是遠高於我們結果他們的在這一部分的CPI15的CPI是遠低於我們"},{"start":12205.293,"end":12228.198,"text":"他們大概2%而已我跟委員報告事實上如果說就歐美來講的話我們跟OECD來比較事實上他們的服務類也是一樣的是上去了以後它下來也是比較你現在講的是說是食物類但是如果說我們從total這個服務類來看的話事實上它還是比我們高"},{"start":12234.209,"end":12258.077,"text":"他整體的服務類還是比我們高他的服務類呢現在大概是4.4左右但是食物的部分他大概是他食物類的話 因為他上漲了以後他下來的速度呢是比較快一點比我們台灣快一點所以這個總裁當然您是專家啦我的看法我的看法就是說是不是"},{"start":12259.147,"end":12278.658,"text":"我們中央銀行應該靈活應用這個利率來控制通通啦我的看法就是說因為我們洋行最重要的任務之一就是穩定國內物價嘛對不對那在這一個部分利率的運用上"},{"start":12282.339,"end":12298.458,"text":"觀察的結果美國他們是很靈活應用的美國他們在這個利率的調整他們是很激動很激動的那我們呢我們台灣長期以來我們國家的低利率已經造成一些"},{"start":12300.387,"end":12314.337,"text":"不可測的危害已經發生很清楚的這個我們長期的低利率導致房地產價格不斷上漲那我們長期的低利率也讓我們台灣的民眾放棄"},{"start":12315.718,"end":12344.418,"text":"除序放棄除序那麼而且還傾向於因為這麼低的利率所以傾向於借貸那這個都是很頭痛的問題而且這長期以往會助長這個金融投機啦金融泡沫所以這一個部分是我們不得不要來做機動的調整尤其尤其我們長期的這個低利率"},{"start":12345.379,"end":12374.086,"text":"低利率已經也導致我們台灣受險業者他們把我們高達35兆他們從保險戶收到的資金那這些金額70% 25兆因為我們國家的低利率所以他們又有理由有藉口他們到海外去購買海外國外的債券基金那這些"},{"start":12375.026,"end":12391.607,"text":"因為有戰爭匯率的風險賺人家利息人家把你本金吃了戰爭的風險你像買俄國的部分現在要收回遙遙無期那這一些風險都已經發生不打緊也導致我們國內"},{"start":12393.008,"end":12416.749,"text":"自己國家的資金來自我們民眾的錢竟然沒辦法用在我們國家自己的建設所以我認為是不是應該在下一次的禮監事會議還有下下次未來的這些禮監事會議要靈活激動的調整利率你看美國他們這麼激動之下你看他們"},{"start":12417.89,"end":12442.305,"text":"在通膨的部分他們守的至少守的還比我們好所以這一個部分是我給周恩揚的一些建議好不好能不能這個部分就做到而且我也做了一個臨時提案希望在這一個部分你們一個月內做一個基本的一個你們的對利率調整有一些綜合因素的看法好不好"},{"start":12442.865,"end":12444.226,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請梁總裁"},{"start":12468.629,"end":12470.71,"text":"我們看到相關的媒體報導有說新增的房貸一季狂減1.5萬戶第四季比第三季減了大概1.5萬件"},{"start":12491.562,"end":12518.618,"text":"那個我看房市的這個329這個329檔期那個推案但是新案衰減然後市場疲軟然後請問您這個第七波信用管制之後你覺得現在你的看法現在房市有反轉走低嗎我跟委員報告就是說我們當時第七波的主要的目的有三個9月19號"},{"start":12520.619,"end":12537.771,"text":"對我們9月19號我們有目的有三個第一個就是說那時候的預期的心理是非常強的就是上漲的預期心理不過現在我想委員應該要同意他已經有下來的趨勢預期心理有下降房地產一定會漲的這個預期心理下降一定會漲的那個預期心理是已經扭轉回來了這是第一個第二個我們是希望這個資源就是說不動我們的信用資源不要太"},{"start":12550.479,"end":12578.258,"text":"要讓他能夠比較帶給我們的那個無自用自宅的消費者那這一點呢也有慢慢的上升這是第二個第三個呢也就是說他的集中度呢他的集中度就是說我們的銀行的那個放款的集中度在不動產這慢慢的下來了所以也有達到也有達到這個目的但是那個總裁"},{"start":12579.899,"end":12605.159,"text":"銀行放款的集中度 其實就是那一條就是說你們說存放比多少這一個但是你們有沒有同時注意到這個各個地區的這種差異在你們的這個觀察裡頭有同時注意到嗎各個地區是不是我舉例 我舉一個具體的例子給您我去年的時候我在財委擔任召委的時候我請了我們相關單位到金門去開了一次會議他請當地的金融機構"},{"start":12605.819,"end":12626.612,"text":"都過來開會我們發現我們金門的銀行比如土銀好了您猜看看他的存放比是多少您知道嗎您猜看看他的存放比如果說就我當地的土銀的金門分行金門當地的因為我沒有就是說很特地對了不過一般來講比較就像離島的話我再猜不過也許就不對了沒關係他的存款應該是比換款還多"},{"start":12636.226,"end":12658.991,"text":"那存穩應該大概在比較合理的區間應該在哪裡一般來講的話合理是要72%合理是72%對不對他合理都70幾%我不曉得那個你知道金門的土銀或是台銀他是多少我是不曉得15%15%台銀也是差不多16%那就很低對就是非常的低那也就是說"},{"start":12660.251,"end":12687.383,"text":"那也就是說金門的民眾大部分都是存款因為金門民眾不需要貸款嗎因為金門沒有企業當然不是這個原因當然不是說因為我們也是有相關產業而是說金門的很多存款存款不少但是很多的貸款金融機構他的這種"},{"start":12688.303,"end":12714.005,"text":"執行率也好或者他的放款意願也不想所以基本很多的存款就被的資金就被同樣是土地銀行或是台灣銀行好了這個錢就被移到讓台灣來使用我的意思因為事實上現在發生的情形就是這樣子所以當你們在說什麼存放筆啊在說這個東西信用管制的時候其實我覺得央行也要注意也要稍微注意一下各個區域怕說很多"},{"start":12715.006,"end":12738.366,"text":"比較像我們來講我們偏遠地區的錢存在以後全部都集中到了比較都會區可能台我不知道可能台北因為我沒有研究台北可能台北來高雄這種比較都會區去使用所以造成這個如果以房地產來講的話有時候會造成這樣的錢會集中的不是只有說欸您說是30%多少%這樣的70%的這個差別而是有時候資金的移動"},{"start":12738.806,"end":12766.379,"text":"會影響這個地區 這個可能也是所以請央行證也許也可以去了解一下這個第一點嘛 這個說影響這個相對就某些地方就會變成草房就會比較嚴重某些地方經濟發展比如說不一定是房地產說經濟發展企業想要融資變得很辛苦有時候這個也是有影響所以我們除了注意說它的一個比例以外也要注意區域的有沒有均衡的發展其實這個也是很重要對啦 沒有錯啦"},{"start":12767.359,"end":12788.914,"text":"這個是第一點然後第二點關於房地產有關就是說之前就是訂所謂的豪宅那當然這個財政部在金管那邊管那個豪宅的總價不過我覺得後來事實上這個建商有他的做法他們就把坪數弄很小單價弄很高所以我看最近有一個新的政策就是讓單價一定的"},{"start":12790.255,"end":12804.226,"text":"每個地區嘛一定的金額以上也要比較比較可以比較不能太超過不然也是不能帶這個也是算是一個很好的政策啦這個才能真正讓房價走向一個比較平衡的這個發展不然"},{"start":12806.46,"end":12822.958,"text":"這樣子對你這樣的做法你們之前有的做法對百姓並沒有幫助啊因為反而是建商賺更多因為他把單價他把坪數弄很小20坪變10坪但單價做很多做高了做高後反而讓房價又漲起來然後事實上建商獲利也沒有變少"},{"start":12823.879,"end":12852.609,"text":"您了解我在說什麼?我知道您看這個不動產的放款我看到您有相關的報導有找銀行來喝咖啡有三家銀行然後對於說這些按計管控提交具體改善方案這些都有提到那我也請您關注一下各個區域也許銀行也要請他們提供一下他各個區域是不是有太過不均衡的發展那熱錢集中在一個地方那個地方容易炒作"},{"start":12853.89,"end":12869.94,"text":"這個也請列入這個考量那還會有第八波嗎?因為我們是九月十九嘛那時候我們問的時候九月十九到十二月有一段期但現在已經又要三月了嘛等於是半年了啦 將近半年了那你看你下去的發展呢?"},{"start":12872.585,"end":12895.146,"text":"我想我們是滾動性檢討啦滾動性檢討 所以也有可能有 也有可能沒有啦這個是由理事來決定啦有理事決定喔 對但是我還講說那個 我像有相關政策像平數的單家那個倒是也是一個 還有各區的喔可以看一下這民間的相關這個反應啦好 那這個"},{"start":12896.227,"end":12910.816,"text":"第一季你們央行理事與監事會議預期去年的時候 去年也是這個時候你們預期台電4月調漲電價那有做出 祭出這個預防性的升級半馬營業那今年現在3月你們3月20號開會了吧"},{"start":12912.857,"end":12936.646,"text":"現在聽起來台電又有可能聽起來又好像可能調漲這個電價那你們今年會一樣採取這樣的這個預防性申請剛我有聽別人有問過這個也是由理事來解釋我知道我知道你會這樣回答但是去年今年因為你們在業務報告也有跟我們提到要考量未來台鐵票價水電公用事務費率調漲那相關的預測值會上漲所以"},{"start":12942.108,"end":12947.915,"text":"你的標準答案就是說你要看你以前是否但看起來的話如果比照去年的做法可能會傾向這個方面"},{"start":12951.67,"end":12975.141,"text":"還是有理解 沒關係我想請問你關於虛擬貨幣的事情美國總統川普簽行政命令要正式成立戰略比特幣儲備確保美國在全球加密貨幣市場的領導地位但是我們央行說的是虛擬貨幣不宜列為準備資產"},{"start":12976.782,"end":12998.34,"text":"因為央行是說比特幣價格波動劇烈容易受金融市場資金鏈消息鏈影響沒有辦法具備貨幣應有的交易媒介計價單位及價值儲藏三大功能比較像是一種投機或是投資性質的商品這是我們央行說的但是美國川普總統卻對這個大力提倡那就是說"},{"start":13004.565,"end":13030.505,"text":"你這樣還是認為還是這樣認為嗎就是說比特幣這類的虛擬資產你的看法跟我們川普總統的看法不大不大一致啊是啦我想這個我們會密切注意他啦不過以目前我們的態度呢我們還是覺得就是說在台灣要把它就是說把它變成一個我們的準備變成一個外匯存底的一部分當然啦"},{"start":13032.026,"end":13048.074,"text":"外存底的一部分跟它是戰略儲備因為我們政府的戰略儲備我不曉得是有哪些啦但是我們外存底的這個部分呢到在目前呢我們是沒有考慮就是說還是沒有考慮虛擬貨幣啦還是沒有考慮虛擬貨幣啦"},{"start":13052.116,"end":13068.171,"text":"既然就是說美國都是要把他列入這個我們會正視他我們會密切注意他也是會密切注意我們會密切注意他那您看看川普總統還頒了一個行政命令他說禁止創建數位美元像那個央行數位貨幣CPTC嘛那"},{"start":13070.473,"end":13095.048,"text":"他說這個CBDC是威脅金融體系穩定個人影響美國主權禁止在美國建立但是我們不是有在推嗎我們央行有在推嗎有在推CBDC那這個跟美國全球領導國家的做法也不一樣那這樣會不會延緩我們推這個的腳步我覺得就是說"},{"start":13096.309,"end":13118.314,"text":"基本上呢我們看看其他的國家呢也沒有就是說是因為川普總統他的這個政策因為基本上其他的國家他還是往前推的啦那基本上中央銀行呢也會還是我們還是按照既定的一個行程往前推啦往前推進就對了是是是我們還是好謝謝你是謝謝"},{"start":13120.815,"end":13125.783,"text":"好 謝謝陳立正委員的諮詢下一位請王洪恩委員諮詢 請"},{"start":13135.336,"end":13150.218,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請楊總裁楊總裁請還有我們財經資訊公司財經資訊的林鄧市長請王委員早好 總裁好"},{"start":13155.283,"end":13171.613,"text":"董事長好,總裁,我們財經資訊公司的董事長是我們央行代表,是吧?是應該是,不是應該算,好來,那我請問一下我們林董事長"},{"start":13173.442,"end":13194.264,"text":"董事長請問一下,我知道您是財經公司基層做起那請問在財經公司裡面有沒有您的兩位侄子跟一位侄女也在財經公司任職跟委員報告有的,但是他不是我核定的"},{"start":13195.828,"end":13223.272,"text":"都在所以有三位兩個侄子一位侄女都在財經公司任職那是怎麼樣是兩位兩位兩位都是侄子嗎客戶服務組有一位侄女組長是是嗎是那另外一位是零我用我這個字問問誰啊零差安還是零差智"},{"start":13224.704,"end":13239.249,"text":"林差安林差志勇沒有曾經也在公司任職沒有所以這位就是排名第三的從來沒有在我們財經公司任職沒有"},{"start":13240.475,"end":13264.435,"text":"那這兩位因為我接獲我們財經公司的員工的算是爆料吧因為他認為就是我們公司董事長有安插自己的三親等到公司來任職那還有請問您的侄女進入公司半年就升組長是不是事實"},{"start":13266.763,"end":13288.123,"text":"跟委員報告我要查一下他有升組長是事實那他到公司多久升任跟委員報告這個權限是總經理的權限所以我沒有特別注意他是什麼時候升職那他本來要招進來據我的了解他本來就是儲備要當主管"},{"start":13290.091,"end":13306.838,"text":"所以确实他进来之后不晓得他是多久的时间另外再请教一下您的侄女升任组长前组长是不是有被惩戒"},{"start":13308.423,"end":13336.631,"text":"他的前一位的組長是不是有被懲戒跟委員報告就我的了解當時這個組長其實在之前就有一些問題產生了所以才會在外面再招募一個儲備的主管所以他是有被懲戒的他被懲戒然後招募剛剛好就是您的侄女也進來了好那麼因為這個的整個的爆料"},{"start":13337.83,"end":13361.078,"text":"就直接我想总裁也听一下过去曾经在我们国内的金融公营行库里面也出现过这个董事长后来呢就是把他们家的他的家人或者是合伙的合伙股东的小孩一个一个的进入公司以我们财经公司来说那么"},{"start":13362.301,"end":13381.488,"text":"我覺得這是很集中啦董事長是基層出身我覺得你升任董事長沒有什麼問題但是呢陸陸續續陸陸續續正好都是你的侄子侄女也進入同一家公司我個人覺得這個有利益衝突跟利益迴避的問題"},{"start":13383.124,"end":13398.909,"text":"並不適當並不適當而且現在已經有員工來做檢舉我想請問一下總裁來 請教總裁中央銀行是不是有曾經接獲過檢舉"},{"start":13405.283,"end":13418.452,"text":"快點 我的時間一直在走喔有接貨檢舉那總裁有去了解嗎我們的業務單位有請他們的集合他們的總集合針對人家的檢舉做報告"},{"start":13421.374,"end":13442.623,"text":"做報告 所以總裁有看過報告嗎我有所以你認為這一切都合理 合法 合情嗎如果說 如果說 據我們看那個的那個我們它的總集合的這個報告裡面我個人是覺得是應該是還可以"},{"start":13443.692,"end":13458.545,"text":"只有說在這個就像那個委員在講的就是說這個是觀感的一個問題當然有觀感問題啊我覺得任何一下如果說一般民間公司所以我們家人都進公司也就算了但是我們這個是國營事業"},{"start":13462.388,"end":13490.304,"text":"過去我們國營的就是包含我們的一些我們的銀行也發生這樣的狀況啊是這終究是要避免的啊是 是 是是不是這是觀感的問題啦是啦 沒有錯啦所以所以我覺得秦總裁還是要處理一下好不好因為不然的話我們今天會繼續接獲這些檢舉函啊而且他認為說他檢舉了之後他們反而反而被秋後算帳"},{"start":13492.432,"end":13510.624,"text":"所以他在裡面是他們檢舉之後被秋後算賬有一些懲處所以請總裁還有董事長能夠回去重新檢視好不好我也不希望再看到這樣的一些爆料了"},{"start":13511.885,"end":13512.746,"text":"王委員的質詢 下一位請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":13549.144,"end":13550.887,"text":"好,謝謝,我請央行的楊總裁"},{"start":13560.713,"end":13588.98,"text":"這個總裁辛苦了那兩個問題請教一下總裁第一就是美國關稅美國關稅當然這個隨時都會變動它的關稅的政策不是那麼穩定那隨著總統他有每天可能有新的想法所以關稅政策當然不管怎麼樣對台灣的出口競爭力跟匯率一定會造成影響那你看南韓南韓就面臨到這個美國的關稅壓力所以都要造成它韓元的低迷"},{"start":13590.36,"end":13616.371,"text":"還有一點點扁在亞洲的貨幣裡面它是相對比較弱勢那你高度依賴出口而且也沒有內需關稅又沒有辦法衝擊又沒有辦法降低那部分整體的這個因為關稅造成的整體國家的GDP就會下降投資就會受到影響"},{"start":13617.431,"end":13642.054,"text":"從南韓經驗來看如果美國加徵關稅當然我們沒有辦法避免對我們出口跟整體經濟的影響那您覺得最壞的狀況台灣出口競爭力或者台灣的GDP會減少多少到目前為止我們還是在評估當中因為不確定性嘛不過呢初步的估計我們到目前初步的估計我們是覺得"},{"start":13644.015,"end":13654.145,"text":"如果說按照我們這個報告也有談到啊就是說如果說他對額外的那四個那個對醫藥品、半導體特別是對我們的半導體因為我們半導體還有鋼鐵、鋁銅、汽車及零組件這個對我們的影響目前我們初步的評估是不會很大"},{"start":13666.636,"end":13680.897,"text":"那看樣子台積電去美國投資那麼高額然後這個史上最大的一個投資額會不會因此就降低美國這個川普政府對台灣的晶片加收關稅的這個可能性"},{"start":13683.159,"end":13694.806,"text":"這個看起來好像後來他就改口了他好像川普好像也蠻滿意的樣子就是說他也佩服說台灣在這個領域方面的強項"},{"start":13698.568,"end":13710.652,"text":"所以川普有些時候我們就都沒有說真正的搞不過我是覺得他也應該算是對於我們的半導體的產業他也是蠻佩服的"},{"start":13714.913,"end":13736.853,"text":"半導體有沒有加徵關稅那它整體而言它的關稅一定會比過去的這個前任政府更多嘛品項也更多所以再用我們以出國導向的這個經濟體來看那當然它的關稅政策一定會對台灣造成影響那台灣出國競爭力下降那當然我們的這個貨幣就會受到衝擊"},{"start":13739.995,"end":13756.644,"text":"會不會持續貶值如果持續貶值的話我跟委員報告就是說川普的我們說川普1.0川普1.0基本上呢事實上呢川普1.0他美中貿易衝突我們台灣是受力的"},{"start":13757.458,"end":13779.645,"text":"但是呢受益的是受益的是受益的但是呢川普2.0呢他的情況他就要賭那個缺口那缺口呢他就普遍性的那如果說是普遍性的話呢那事實上呢我個人啦當然啦我這個我們還是要study啦如果說普遍性的時候對每一個國家都是這樣子的時候呢那基本上呢"},{"start":13780.385,"end":13802.497,"text":"每個國家都是這樣子那也不是說只有針對我們台灣那如果說就半導體所以我們在十三頁這邊有講到半導體的這個部分因為我們直接出口到美國的那個直接出口到他那邊去的好像不多佔我們的GDP佔我們的出口的那個也就是說我們的曝險不高"},{"start":13803.377,"end":13812.343,"text":"相對其他國家對,不高所以目前他所公布的相關的關稅政策不過我們也不能說他就是這樣子所以這個議題應該要密切的注意我是擔心關稅一旦"},{"start":13822.469,"end":13849.849,"text":"開徵會影響到我們出口競爭力出口競爭力是我的經濟的命脈我就是說出口的競爭力因為它是整個是全部它都關稅嘛它是普遍性的嘛是 謝謝那第二個問題想討論這個匯率啊那台積電到美國投資金額那麼大那資本當然一定外流那相關的這個產業鏈也都會過去啊這種情況這個央行有沒有穩定匯率的政策我事實上呢"},{"start":13852.025,"end":13863.453,"text":"台積電到那邊去投資一千億要增加一千億增加一千億事實上我們的外局就有去跟他們的財務處討論這個問題事實上他們說他們營收今年他們估計都有差不多一千億一千億美元不是台幣"},{"start":13874.16,"end":13901.572,"text":"然後你看看他1000億要投資那邊的話他是分四年這是第一個分四年一年是250億第二個他也可以在那邊籌資所以就他來講的話事實上也不會說是因為他要到我那邊投資所以他必須要在這邊買會然後再出去影響到我們的YC我再用30秒我的問題是說你產業鏈過去當然在那邊生產當然也會有"},{"start":13901.972,"end":13931.127,"text":"會有獲利那獲利會不會怎麼樣有政策的引導可以在這個回流台灣那當然就是說第一個他獲利然後呢就會回台灣這個也有可能啦這個也有可能啦但是有沒有政策上的引導或者誘因讓整體獲利不會在這邊繼續在投資你把獲利的這個這個他們的投資策略我不曉得說實在我不曉得我也只是能夠從報紙上看到就是說"},{"start":13931.707,"end":13942.677,"text":"他要增加一千億的投資這個我們只能夠這樣知道而已那至於就是說這些細節的我相信這個樣行的決策也能夠兼顧台灣出口競爭力把這個關稅的衝擊降到最低我對您是深具信心"},{"start":13954.622,"end":13957.886,"text":"楊炯英 鄭振全林柱英 蔡玉宇陳冠廷 蘇清泉"},{"start":13975.605,"end":13998.363,"text":"葉元芝 葉元芝 葉元芝委員不在何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳 何欣淳委員不在徐欣怡 徐欣怡 徐欣怡委員不在那麼報告委員會今天的電器發言委員已經全部詢問完畢現在因為有一個臨時提案啦這個"},{"start":14002.712,"end":14027.39,"text":"這個我先請教王委員 田委員啊可不可以因為你剛剛質詢的時候已經有講了質詢的時候楊總裁也答應了口頭上已經答應在這裡面所有的會議紀錄都是公開的而且是有效的所以他已經承諾你要給你是不是這個案子因為人不夠我們就是楊總裁口頭上答應這樣可以嗎就"},{"start":14037.177,"end":14063.083,"text":"那就謝謝主席就依照您說的就是王委員的提案那個楊總裁剛才我聽你是講沒有問題你基本上答應就是要一個月以內提出有關於升降系對於物價房價及房租制交付影響並說明歷以來升降系決策"},{"start":14065.629,"end":14086.906,"text":"前開因素評估一個月內做相關的書面報告可以了齁好 談口頭答應的好不好那謝謝總裁 要麻煩你們麻煩你齁這個 剛才的這一個提案還是列進去然後我們的會議紀錄就是寫總裁口頭答應 就這樣子好不好 好 好謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝那麼"},{"start":14093.57,"end":14118.142,"text":"跟各位報告本次會議做如下之決定第一個報告及審討完畢第二委員質詢為其答覆後請補充資訊請周英龍在一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定第三委員陳冠廷所提的書面資料及"},{"start":14127.575,"end":14140.364,"text":"原王世堅所提的書面補充資料補充提案也列列錄記錄刊登公報並請周英文一書面答覆"},{"start":14142.435,"end":14157.011,"text":"本市會議紀錄已進行會議一程已進行完畢堂友不在場委員補題書面諮詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理本期宣布散會 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16512","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16512","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db6d254b92567b84ce6e917ab2baf494287a524d1b3d409a1a280553c190cf20385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-13T08:30:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:04:00+08:00","duration":12807,"影片長度":"03:33:27","委員發言時間":"08:30:33 - 12:04:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1817.5528437500002,"end":1820.9784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1822.0247187500001,"end":1822.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1823.3747187500003,"end":1825.7372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1827.3572187500001,"end":1828.9603437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1829.56784375,"end":1833.1453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1833.4828437500003,"end":1860.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1860.7697187500003,"end":1864.6678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1865.0728437500002,"end":1872.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1874.6072187500001,"end":1876.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1878.2015937500003,"end":1878.2184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1878.2184687500003,"end":1882.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1882.9772187500002,"end":1883.4834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1885.6434687500002,"end":1886.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1887.51659375,"end":1889.4065937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1890.1322187500002,"end":1890.6553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1891.44846875,"end":1900.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1901.4047187500003,"end":1902.1303437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1902.8222187500003,"end":1906.0284687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1907.4290937500002,"end":1908.0365937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1908.9647187500002,"end":1912.5759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1913.0315937500002,"end":1913.9259687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1915.1409687500002,"end":1915.4278437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1916.2547187500002,"end":1917.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1917.8409687500002,"end":1919.2584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1919.44409375,"end":1921.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1922.3465937500002,"end":1922.7178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1923.4265937500002,"end":1926.1265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1927.7803437500002,"end":1927.9659687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1928.6072187500001,"end":1930.9022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1933.1634687500002,"end":1935.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1937.8884687500001,"end":1941.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1943.33909375,"end":1944.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1945.3640937500002,"end":1946.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1947.9628437500003,"end":1949.2115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1949.5153437500003,"end":1950.4434687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1951.7090937500002,"end":1952.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1952.8565937500002,"end":1955.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1957.8684687500001,"end":1959.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1959.7078437500002,"end":1960.5347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1961.78346875,"end":1964.9390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1965.3609687500002,"end":1973.5115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1984.7672187500002,"end":1988.3953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1989.0703437500001,"end":1997.5922187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1997.9297187500001,"end":1999.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1999.2797187500003,"end":2011.0584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2011.7672187500002,"end":2028.6759687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2029.0134687500001,"end":2106.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2106.8915937500005,"end":2117.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2118.2653437500003,"end":2120.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2121.18471875,"end":2154.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2155.18784375,"end":2171.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2171.7253437500003,"end":2200.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2200.86846875,"end":2203.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2204.3953437500004,"end":2222.3672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2223.4472187500005,"end":2223.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2224.44284375,"end":2232.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2232.34034375,"end":2240.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2240.87909375,"end":2247.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2247.94971875,"end":2265.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2265.7528437500005,"end":2288.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2288.66909375,"end":2293.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2293.7147187500004,"end":2293.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2293.74846875,"end":2297.8828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2298.38909375,"end":2319.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2320.44471875,"end":2326.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2327.2115937500002,"end":2337.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2337.62346875,"end":2351.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2351.2247187500006,"end":2360.5397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2360.82659375,"end":2365.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2365.75409375,"end":2377.3809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2377.98846875,"end":2394.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2394.93096875,"end":2398.2722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2398.42409375,"end":2429.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2429.35596875,"end":2431.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2431.88721875,"end":2438.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2438.63721875,"end":2453.3015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2453.82471875,"end":2455.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2456.35596875,"end":2477.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2477.9559687500005,"end":2486.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2486.59596875,"end":2494.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2495.10096875,"end":2507.7234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2508.17909375,"end":2543.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2543.97096875,"end":2567.2078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2567.7647187500006,"end":2585.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2585.6522187500004,"end":2627.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2628.41346875,"end":2638.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2638.77471875,"end":2645.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2646.01409375,"end":2650.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2650.8572187500004,"end":2669.4197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2669.63909375,"end":2683.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2683.9490937500004,"end":2687.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2687.89784375,"end":2706.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2709.6159687500003,"end":2711.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2711.5565937500005,"end":2713.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2714.10471875,"end":2715.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2716.3659687500003,"end":2718.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2718.88034375,"end":2720.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2721.0065937500003,"end":2737.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2742.99471875,"end":2746.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2747.0615937500006,"end":2748.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2756.5284687500007,"end":2757.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2756.9503437500007,"end":2757.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2757.1022187500002,"end":2757.1190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2757.74346875,"end":2760.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2760.71346875,"end":2763.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2763.64971875,"end":2764.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2764.30784375,"end":2765.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2764.84784375,"end":2765.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2765.57346875,"end":2769.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2770.21409375,"end":2775.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2775.41159375,"end":2782.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2783.0897187500004,"end":2785.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2785.16534375,"end":2787.0047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2787.52784375,"end":2790.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2790.9872187500005,"end":2792.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2792.87721875,"end":2806.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2806.5965937500005,"end":2810.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2811.1865937500006,"end":2822.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2823.2353437500005,"end":2827.0828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2827.53846875,"end":2828.0447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2828.1122187500005,"end":2829.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2829.34409375,"end":2840.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2839.0809687500005,"end":2844.6834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2844.2109687500006,"end":2851.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2845.39221875,"end":2846.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2851.5515937500004,"end":2866.5534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2854.28534375,"end":2855.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2867.44784375,"end":2868.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2868.59534375,"end":2870.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2870.4684687500003,"end":2874.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2873.40471875,"end":2873.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2874.43409375,"end":2874.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2875.2947187500004,"end":2879.8340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2880.1884687500005,"end":2884.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2885.1159687500003,"end":2889.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2889.9590937500006,"end":2890.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2891.5790937500005,"end":2906.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2906.59784375,"end":2914.2253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2914.3097187500007,"end":2917.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2917.2965937500003,"end":2926.7803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2927.16846875,"end":2931.8259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2932.58534375,"end":2934.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2934.76221875,"end":2937.7490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2938.23846875,"end":2940.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2941.4109687500004,"end":2943.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2943.79034375,"end":2944.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2945.7647187500006,"end":2946.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2946.9459687500002,"end":2948.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2949.08909375,"end":2950.0847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2950.1522187500004,"end":2954.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2954.57346875,"end":2954.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2954.75909375,"end":2958.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2958.97784375,"end":2959.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2959.28159375,"end":2962.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2963.0615937500006,"end":2968.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2968.5965937500005,"end":2973.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2973.4059687500003,"end":2974.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2974.5534687500003,"end":2978.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2979.66659375,"end":2983.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2983.68284375,"end":2985.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2985.6572187500005,"end":2990.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2990.9559687500005,"end":2994.1453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2993.2340937500003,"end":3002.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3003.0722187500005,"end":3007.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3007.25721875,"end":3012.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3013.2647187500006,"end":3023.2715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3023.8115937500006,"end":3028.5534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3029.2284687500005,"end":3030.7472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3031.5065937500003,"end":3032.1309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3033.0084687500002,"end":3033.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3034.08846875,"end":3035.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3035.4215937500003,"end":3036.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3036.73784375,"end":3038.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3038.9990937500006,"end":3041.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3041.73284375,"end":3047.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3046.55909375,"end":3052.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3049.37721875,"end":3051.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3051.68909375,"end":3055.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3056.00909375,"end":3057.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3060.4472187500005,"end":3060.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3061.4597187500003,"end":3061.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3061.49346875,"end":3064.0078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3061.51034375,"end":3063.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3064.39596875,"end":3070.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3070.65659375,"end":3074.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3074.9765937500006,"end":3074.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3076.25909375,"end":3076.7315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3077.3897187500006,"end":3083.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3083.80221875,"end":3091.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3091.9697187500005,"end":3094.5684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3095.07471875,"end":3095.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3096.15471875,"end":3101.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3101.7403437500006,"end":3102.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3102.3984687500006,"end":3102.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3103.4109687500004,"end":3105.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3105.7734687500006,"end":3106.6003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3107.05596875,"end":3108.4734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3108.5240937500002,"end":3112.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3112.86096875,"end":3117.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3117.2147187500004,"end":3140.7890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3140.7890937500006,"end":3144.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3144.3328437500004,"end":3158.7272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3159.13221875,"end":3168.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3168.2615937500004,"end":3168.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3168.34596875,"end":3174.6403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3174.80909375,"end":3176.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3176.8340937500006,"end":3178.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3178.8759687500005,"end":3182.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3183.5165937500005,"end":3194.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3195.36284375,"end":3198.3328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3199.27784375,"end":3207.3947187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3207.9853437500005,"end":3210.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3210.4659687500007,"end":3211.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3212.00159375,"end":3218.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3218.98784375,"end":3224.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3225.24846875,"end":3231.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3231.4415937500007,"end":3237.3815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3238.15784375,"end":3240.4190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3240.68909375,"end":3253.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3254.0878437500005,"end":3256.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3256.2647187500006,"end":3259.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3259.48784375,"end":3261.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3262.54221875,"end":3263.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3263.7403437500006,"end":3265.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3265.69784375,"end":3268.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3268.4315937500005,"end":3278.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3279.29909375,"end":3283.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3284.2265937500006,"end":3286.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3287.26409375,"end":3291.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3292.25909375,"end":3294.3515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3294.80721875,"end":3297.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3297.6590937500005,"end":3298.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3298.3847187500005,"end":3314.2303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3314.5847187500003,"end":3316.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3316.37346875,"end":3326.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3325.0809687500005,"end":3326.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3326.44784375,"end":3332.9109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3327.22409375,"end":3327.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3332.7928437500004,"end":3337.4334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3337.51784375,"end":3350.5115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3343.01909375,"end":3343.0528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3343.0528437500006,"end":3344.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3344.9765937500006,"end":3345.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3351.1022187500002,"end":3373.2422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3372.5672187500004,"end":3377.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3376.95471875,"end":3377.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3379.7390937500004,"end":3381.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3382.37159375,"end":3384.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3385.5947187500005,"end":3386.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3386.6240937500006,"end":3386.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3387.4509687500004,"end":3387.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3387.83909375,"end":3388.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3388.32846875,"end":3388.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3388.9697187500005,"end":3389.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3390.01596875,"end":3393.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3393.3740937500006,"end":3393.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3395.56784375,"end":3397.6940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3397.8965937500006,"end":3400.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3404.1403437500003,"end":3404.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3405.97971875,"end":3406.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3413.9278437500006,"end":3413.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3413.94471875,"end":3414.6872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3414.2653437500003,"end":3414.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3415.14284375,"end":3420.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3420.8972187500003,"end":3423.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3423.58034375,"end":3453.3984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3453.60096875,"end":3472.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3473.4628437500005,"end":3473.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3474.0534687500003,"end":3476.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3474.1715937500003,"end":3474.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3474.20534375,"end":3474.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3474.8972187500003,"end":3475.1503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3475.1503437500005,"end":3475.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3475.18409375,"end":3475.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3475.5722187500005,"end":3475.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3475.6228437500004,"end":3475.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3475.67346875,"end":3475.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3476.63534375,"end":3499.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3499.53471875,"end":3507.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3508.32659375,"end":3521.0840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3521.45534375,"end":3529.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3529.77471875,"end":3530.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3530.8884687500004,"end":3531.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3531.9178437500004,"end":3533.6559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3533.94284375,"end":3535.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3536.42346875,"end":3540.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3538.2628437500007,"end":3538.6003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3541.46909375,"end":3543.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3542.66721875,"end":3576.0459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3576.48471875,"end":3630.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3631.46346875,"end":3641.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3641.6222187500007,"end":3643.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3643.37721875,"end":3644.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3645.0309687500003,"end":3651.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3652.2197187500005,"end":3659.3409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3659.54346875,"end":3662.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3660.7584687500002,"end":3663.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3664.7409687500003,"end":3720.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3720.6815937500005,"end":3733.2703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3733.86096875,"end":3740.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3740.42534375,"end":3751.4615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3749.16659375,"end":3749.3859687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3750.6515937500008,"end":3757.8740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3757.8740937500006,"end":3760.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3758.1778437500006,"end":3758.8190937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3759.2578437500006,"end":3775.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3775.72784375,"end":3779.3390937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3778.9509687500004,"end":3781.2628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3780.9590937500006,"end":3781.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3781.3640937500004,"end":3781.3809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3781.3809687500006,"end":3781.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3781.51596875,"end":3781.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3781.6172187500006,"end":3781.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3781.63409375,"end":3790.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3781.6847187500007,"end":3782.9503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3791.3709687500004,"end":3793.4297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3793.56471875,"end":3799.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3798.34034375,"end":3825.7453437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3826.65659375,"end":3831.2128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3831.6347187500005,"end":3840.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3840.9665937500004,"end":3846.3328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3846.8053437500002,"end":3863.2247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3863.4103437500007,"end":3864.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3864.5240937500002,"end":3868.3209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3868.67534375,"end":3904.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3905.0578437500008,"end":3909.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3910.3903437500003,"end":3911.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3911.52096875,"end":3917.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3917.5284687500007,"end":3935.5509687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3936.0740937500004,"end":3978.2784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3978.48096875,"end":3983.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3982.6153437500006,"end":3984.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3985.04534375,"end":4001.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4000.84034375,"end":4003.3378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4002.59534375,"end":4003.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4004.1984687500008,"end":4006.8984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4006.9490937500004,"end":4013.4122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4009.2947187500004,"end":4011.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4011.97784375,"end":4012.9903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4013.4122187500006,"end":4015.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4014.15471875,"end":4030.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4031.1815937500005,"end":4035.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4033.5440937500007,"end":4037.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4037.30721875,"end":4039.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4040.2940937500007,"end":4042.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4043.2809687500003,"end":4043.9728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4044.3103437500004,"end":4047.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4047.9215937500003,"end":4050.4022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4050.48659375,"end":4052.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4052.2584687500002,"end":4061.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4061.40471875,"end":4076.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4076.6259687500005,"end":4088.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4088.7253437500003,"end":4099.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4099.66034375,"end":4108.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4109.17784375,"end":4125.782843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4126.204718749999,"end":4133.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4134.085343750001,"end":4137.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4137.52784375,"end":4137.831593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4138.28721875,"end":4144.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4145.02034375,"end":4149.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4145.425343749999,"end":4145.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4147.12971875,"end":4147.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4148.091593749999,"end":4154.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4154.571593750001,"end":4158.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4159.161593750001,"end":4165.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4163.4647187499995,"end":4164.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4164.10596875,"end":4164.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4165.962218750001,"end":4167.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4168.32471875,"end":4170.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4171.17659375,"end":4173.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4173.420968750001,"end":4177.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4174.905968749999,"end":4182.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4179.833468750001,"end":4180.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4182.5165937500005,"end":4185.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4183.731593750001,"end":4185.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4185.09846875,"end":4185.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4185.16596875,"end":4186.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4185.655343750001,"end":4186.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4186.026593750001,"end":4190.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4186.9715937500005,"end":4187.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4187.64659375,"end":4187.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4188.47346875,"end":4188.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4188.49034375,"end":4205.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4191.139718750001,"end":4192.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4203.76221875,"end":4210.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4205.68596875,"end":4206.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4207.37346875,"end":4208.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4209.06096875,"end":4209.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4209.077843749999,"end":4210.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4210.32659375,"end":4211.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4212.503468749999,"end":4213.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4214.54534375,"end":4214.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4215.0009687500005,"end":4216.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4216.6209687499995,"end":4219.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4224.889718750001,"end":4229.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4232.669093750001,"end":4233.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4236.71909375,"end":4240.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4237.37721875,"end":4237.815968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4237.815968749999,"end":4237.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4240.1278437500005,"end":4240.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4240.65096875,"end":4241.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4241.59596875,"end":4243.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4243.80659375,"end":4246.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4247.02971875,"end":4250.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4251.501593749999,"end":4253.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4254.10034375,"end":4255.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4256.142218749999,"end":4263.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4263.600968750001,"end":4266.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4267.2459687499995,"end":4274.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4274.519093749999,"end":4279.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4279.22721875,"end":4279.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4280.3240937499995,"end":4284.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4284.76221875,"end":4290.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4291.32659375,"end":4292.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4293.554093750001,"end":4296.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4297.78971875,"end":4298.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4298.97096875,"end":4300.017218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4300.18596875,"end":4301.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4303.358468750001,"end":4304.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4305.872843749999,"end":4306.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4306.64909375,"end":4308.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4308.75846875,"end":4309.720343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4309.93971875,"end":4313.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4313.73659375,"end":4318.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4316.79096875,"end":4316.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4316.807843750001,"end":4316.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4318.24221875,"end":4318.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4319.22096875,"end":4321.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4322.376593749999,"end":4325.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4325.194718750001,"end":4325.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4326.10596875,"end":4328.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4329.126593749999,"end":4331.894093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4332.61971875,"end":4334.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4335.269093749999,"end":4335.876593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4336.28159375,"end":4337.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4337.64846875,"end":4338.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4339.36971875,"end":4339.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4340.483468750001,"end":4341.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4341.86721875,"end":4348.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4348.85346875,"end":4349.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4349.9334687499995,"end":4351.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4352.16096875,"end":4352.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4352.700968749999,"end":4352.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4352.717843750001,"end":4353.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4352.73471875,"end":4353.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4353.57846875,"end":4357.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4355.58659375,"end":4359.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4358.97846875,"end":4361.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4362.269093749999,"end":4364.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4365.44159375,"end":4366.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4367.331593749999,"end":4369.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4369.997843749999,"end":4370.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4370.6053437499995,"end":4372.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4373.339093750001,"end":4375.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4375.61721875,"end":4380.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4380.3759687500005,"end":4382.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4383.61596875,"end":4384.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4384.5272187499995,"end":4386.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4387.024718750001,"end":4388.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4388.93159375,"end":4393.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4394.483468750001,"end":4396.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4396.862843749999,"end":4397.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4397.63909375,"end":4398.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4398.550343749999,"end":4401.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4403.27534375,"end":4404.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4405.165343750001,"end":4407.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4408.32096875,"end":4410.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4411.1728437500005,"end":4412.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4413.2147187499995,"end":4416.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4416.319718750001,"end":4419.222218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4416.33659375,"end":4416.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4419.222218749999,"end":4420.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4420.960343750001,"end":4422.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4423.05284375,"end":4423.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4423.862843749999,"end":4425.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4425.600968750001,"end":4428.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4429.36409375,"end":4434.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4435.0340937500005,"end":4437.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4437.58221875,"end":4439.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4440.72096875,"end":4441.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4441.37909375,"end":4444.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4444.8553437499995,"end":4446.222218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4447.31909375,"end":4448.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4449.310343749999,"end":4450.204718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4451.40284375,"end":4457.190968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4457.8153437500005,"end":4459.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4459.722218749999,"end":4462.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4463.4853437500005,"end":4463.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4465.05471875,"end":4467.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4467.85596875,"end":4468.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4468.56471875,"end":4471.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4472.935343749999,"end":4475.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4476.276593750001,"end":4479.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4480.343468749999,"end":4481.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4481.946593750001,"end":4483.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4484.27534375,"end":4492.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4492.965968750001,"end":4495.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4495.32846875,"end":4497.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4497.70784375,"end":4498.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4499.39534375,"end":4509.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4499.54721875,"end":4499.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4508.59221875,"end":4512.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4513.18221875,"end":4515.696593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4515.983468750001,"end":4523.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4524.032843749999,"end":4530.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4531.3397187499995,"end":4535.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4535.339093750001,"end":4537.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4537.14471875,"end":4538.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4537.904093749999,"end":4543.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4540.09784375,"end":4540.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4543.69221875,"end":4544.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4545.48096875,"end":4551.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4552.88909375,"end":4555.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4555.97721875,"end":4562.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4562.760968750001,"end":4563.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4563.419093750001,"end":4564.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4564.36409375,"end":4564.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4564.56659375,"end":4564.769093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4564.769093749999,"end":4567.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4567.31721875,"end":4569.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4569.3759687500005,"end":4570.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4570.067843750001,"end":4570.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4570.827218750001,"end":4571.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4571.097218749999,"end":4571.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4571.13096875,"end":4575.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4575.80534375,"end":4576.345343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4576.716593749999,"end":4578.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4579.264718750001,"end":4579.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4580.07471875,"end":4580.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4581.829718749999,"end":4582.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4582.065968749999,"end":4584.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4582.18409375,"end":4582.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4585.069718750001,"end":4589.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4590.081593749999,"end":4598.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4599.649718750001,"end":4604.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4604.67846875,"end":4606.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4607.479718750001,"end":4608.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4608.81284375,"end":4609.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4611.05721875,"end":4614.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4614.4490937499995,"end":4615.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4615.69784375,"end":4622.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4622.4647187499995,"end":4627.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4628.624093750001,"end":4633.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4628.64096875,"end":4630.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4631.762843750001,"end":4632.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4633.028468750001,"end":4633.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4633.3153437500005,"end":4636.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4633.33221875,"end":4633.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4636.589093750001,"end":4640.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4640.4872187500005,"end":4641.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4642.24221875,"end":4643.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4643.659718749999,"end":4669.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4669.394093749999,"end":4677.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4678.27034375,"end":4683.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4684.56471875,"end":4687.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4688.59784375,"end":4689.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4690.33596875,"end":4692.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4693.019093749999,"end":4696.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4697.4403437500005,"end":4698.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4699.026593750001,"end":4700.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4700.83221875,"end":4702.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4703.245343750001,"end":4704.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4705.27034375,"end":4710.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4712.12159375,"end":4716.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4716.94784375,"end":4718.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4718.804093750001,"end":4722.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4722.972218750001,"end":4725.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4725.925343750001,"end":4736.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4735.93221875,"end":4736.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4736.7928437499995,"end":4747.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4747.05284375,"end":4747.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4748.841593749999,"end":4750.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4750.967843750001,"end":4752.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4752.975968750001,"end":4756.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4757.3465937500005,"end":4759.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4759.55721875,"end":4761.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4762.358468750001,"end":4763.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4764.839093750001,"end":4768.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4768.65284375,"end":4770.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4771.538468750001,"end":4773.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4773.61409375,"end":4778.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4780.397843750001,"end":4782.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4782.135968750001,"end":4787.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4785.44346875,"end":4796.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4793.897843750001,"end":4794.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4796.44596875,"end":4801.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4800.884093750001,"end":4801.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4802.419718749999,"end":4804.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4805.389718750001,"end":4812.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4812.966593749999,"end":4814.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4813.0340937500005,"end":4816.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4815.90284375,"end":4819.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4820.72909375,"end":4825.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4826.247218750001,"end":4830.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4831.073468750001,"end":4832.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4832.524718750001,"end":4833.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4834.43159375,"end":4835.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4835.86596875,"end":4836.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4837.215968750001,"end":4841.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4842.3290937500005,"end":4842.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4842.37971875,"end":4842.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4842.39659375,"end":4845.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4842.48096875,"end":4848.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4848.30284375,"end":4849.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4850.46284375,"end":4851.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4851.9647187499995,"end":4856.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4852.09971875,"end":4852.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4855.170968750001,"end":4860.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4858.444718750001,"end":4860.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4861.46534375,"end":4871.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4872.90659375,"end":4873.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4872.95721875,"end":4877.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4878.036593750001,"end":4878.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4880.44971875,"end":4882.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4882.913468750001,"end":4883.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4884.16221875,"end":4886.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4884.837218750001,"end":4889.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4889.91659375,"end":4890.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4890.6590937500005,"end":4892.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4892.565968750001,"end":4896.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4896.919718749999,"end":4899.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4898.69159375,"end":4899.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4899.974093750001,"end":4900.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4907.702843749999,"end":4908.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4909.120343750001,"end":4913.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4925.944718750001,"end":4928.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4928.3915937500005,"end":4928.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4929.35346875,"end":4929.454718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4930.9228437500005,"end":4931.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4932.559718750001,"end":4934.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4934.02784375,"end":4934.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4938.364718750001,"end":4940.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4941.604718750001,"end":4942.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4950.497843749999,"end":4951.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4952.100968750001,"end":4954.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4954.682843750001,"end":4959.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4960.217843750001,"end":4961.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4962.4959687499995,"end":4963.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4964.35221875,"end":4966.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4966.917218750001,"end":4967.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4968.2840937500005,"end":4968.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4968.99284375,"end":4972.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4973.009093750001,"end":4976.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4976.704718749999,"end":4978.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4978.84784375,"end":4980.501593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4980.99096875,"end":4981.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4982.526593750001,"end":4984.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4984.821593750001,"end":4985.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4985.985968749999,"end":4987.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4988.466593749999,"end":4992.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4992.735968749999,"end":4995.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4996.397843750001,"end":4996.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4997.59596875,"end":4999.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5000.21159375,"end":5000.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5000.22846875,"end":5006.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5003.8397187499995,"end":5005.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5005.93221875,"end":5007.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5007.06284375,"end":5013.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5010.53909375,"end":5011.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5013.036593750001,"end":5014.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5013.222218750001,"end":5018.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5018.03159375,"end":5018.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5018.6728437500005,"end":5018.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5018.68971875,"end":5018.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5018.77409375,"end":5018.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5018.9090937500005,"end":5018.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5018.97659375,"end":5019.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5019.044093750001,"end":5021.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5021.0184687500005,"end":5021.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5021.5584687499995,"end":5037.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5025.979718750001,"end":5026.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5033.472218750001,"end":5033.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5037.032843749999,"end":5039.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5039.985968749999,"end":5046.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5046.29721875,"end":5051.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5051.055968750001,"end":5058.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5053.435343749999,"end":5054.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5054.329718749999,"end":5054.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5059.915343750001,"end":5064.454718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5064.792218750001,"end":5066.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5067.6103437500005,"end":5068.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5069.12909375,"end":5072.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5072.6053437499995,"end":5078.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5079.10221875,"end":5086.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5087.03346875,"end":5087.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5087.894093750001,"end":5089.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5089.80096875,"end":5093.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5094.593468749999,"end":5098.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5099.520968750001,"end":5104.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5105.62971875,"end":5111.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5110.962218750001,"end":5115.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5115.029093749999,"end":5118.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5118.77534375,"end":5120.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5120.665343750001,"end":5121.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5121.9647187499995,"end":5125.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5125.89659375,"end":5127.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5127.76971875,"end":5129.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5130.182843750001,"end":5130.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5131.17846875,"end":5132.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5133.11909375,"end":5133.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5134.23284375,"end":5135.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5136.780968749999,"end":5137.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5140.1053437499995,"end":5141.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5143.7840937500005,"end":5144.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5145.083468750001,"end":5147.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5147.530343750001,"end":5149.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5150.1122187500005,"end":5151.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5153.0653437500005,"end":5153.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5153.79096875,"end":5155.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5155.731593750001,"end":5156.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5157.368468750001,"end":5158.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5159.140343749999,"end":5160.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5160.49034375,"end":5164.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5164.10159375,"end":5164.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5164.13534375,"end":5164.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5165.097218750001,"end":5166.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5167.780343750001,"end":5168.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5169.82221875,"end":5170.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5170.59846875,"end":5171.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5172.8934687500005,"end":5174.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5174.715968750001,"end":5176.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5176.84221875,"end":5178.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5179.8290937500005,"end":5180.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5180.97659375,"end":5182.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5182.51221875,"end":5184.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5185.212218750001,"end":5186.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5186.96721875,"end":5188.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5188.60409375,"end":5191.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5189.02596875,"end":5189.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5191.810343749999,"end":5191.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5191.911593750001,"end":5191.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5191.962218750001,"end":5192.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5192.012843750001,"end":5193.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5193.497843749999,"end":5202.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5202.036593750001,"end":5206.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5203.200968749999,"end":5203.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5206.542218750001,"end":5208.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5209.545968750001,"end":5210.423468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5209.5965937500005,"end":5217.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5218.304093750001,"end":5218.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5218.50659375,"end":5219.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5219.519093750001,"end":5220.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5220.66659375,"end":5224.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5224.632218750001,"end":5226.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5226.555968750001,"end":5229.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5230.0322187500005,"end":5230.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5232.19221875,"end":5233.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5235.044093750001,"end":5235.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5236.343468749999,"end":5239.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5241.507218750001,"end":5247.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5247.312218749999,"end":5247.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5247.413468750001,"end":5249.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5250.01221875,"end":5255.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5255.02409375,"end":5264.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5255.614718750001,"end":5256.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5257.774718750001,"end":5258.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5265.452843749999,"end":5268.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5269.14846875,"end":5272.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5273.0634687500005,"end":5274.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5275.341593749999,"end":5276.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5277.33284375,"end":5277.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5278.22721875,"end":5280.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5281.821593750001,"end":5285.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5286.225968750001,"end":5287.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5288.284718750001,"end":5290.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5290.5965937500005,"end":5299.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5299.65846875,"end":5300.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5301.312218749999,"end":5301.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5302.66221875,"end":5303.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5303.624093750001,"end":5304.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5305.075343750001,"end":5307.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5307.606593750001,"end":5314.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5314.2215937500005,"end":5315.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5315.942843750001,"end":5318.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5318.50784375,"end":5318.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5319.0478437500005,"end":5319.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5319.06471875,"end":5329.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5329.18971875,"end":5332.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5329.22346875,"end":5329.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5329.27409375,"end":5329.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5330.708468750001,"end":5330.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5332.733468750001,"end":5334.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5335.36596875,"end":5337.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5337.76221875,"end":5338.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5338.75784375,"end":5347.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5343.19596875,"end":5343.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5348.49471875,"end":5350.907843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5351.41409375,"end":5354.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5354.569718750001,"end":5356.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5356.47659375,"end":5357.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5358.029093749999,"end":5359.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5359.4803437499995,"end":5361.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5361.606593750001,"end":5362.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5362.635968750001,"end":5363.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5364.15471875,"end":5367.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5367.3778437500005,"end":5369.470343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5369.858468750001,"end":5372.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5373.317843750001,"end":5374.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5375.41034375,"end":5375.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5376.30471875,"end":5378.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5378.92034375,"end":5380.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5382.362843750001,"end":5384.235968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5384.92784375,"end":5387.610968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5388.28596875,"end":5391.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5391.323468750001,"end":5393.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5394.546593749999,"end":5397.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5397.837218750001,"end":5399.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5400.2840937500005,"end":5403.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5404.18221875,"end":5404.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5405.22846875,"end":5405.8865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5406.325343750001,"end":5407.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5408.670968750001,"end":5411.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5411.92784375,"end":5413.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5413.32846875,"end":5416.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5416.51784375,"end":5418.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5418.779093749999,"end":5420.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5421.02346875,"end":5421.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5422.42409375,"end":5423.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5425.022843750001,"end":5425.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5426.052218750001,"end":5426.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5427.419093750001,"end":5428.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5428.870343750001,"end":5430.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5431.6209687499995,"end":5433.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5433.71346875,"end":5434.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5436.16034375,"end":5437.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5437.84784375,"end":5440.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5442.67409375,"end":5443.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5444.49659375,"end":5445.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5445.9647187499995,"end":5447.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5447.87159375,"end":5451.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5452.37721875,"end":5453.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5453.96346875,"end":5464.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5459.02596875,"end":5459.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5459.194718750001,"end":5459.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5464.56096875,"end":5464.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5464.61159375,"end":5464.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5464.780343750001,"end":5481.874718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5471.78346875,"end":5472.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5481.874718749999,"end":5485.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5486.144093750001,"end":5490.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5492.45534375,"end":5493.687218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5494.075343750001,"end":5498.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5499.272843750001,"end":5500.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5500.65659375,"end":5506.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5506.74846875,"end":5509.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5509.88721875,"end":5510.798468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5510.899718750001,"end":5512.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5513.093468749999,"end":5518.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5518.74659375,"end":5524.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5525.142218749999,"end":5527.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5528.83784375,"end":5529.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5529.52971875,"end":5531.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5532.415343750001,"end":5534.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5535.01409375,"end":5536.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5536.75221875,"end":5538.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5539.1990937499995,"end":5541.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5542.00034375,"end":5543.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5544.86909375,"end":5548.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5548.37909375,"end":5552.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5552.3447187500005,"end":5552.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5552.96909375,"end":5553.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5553.036593750001,"end":5558.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5553.57659375,"end":5553.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5553.694718750001,"end":5553.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5558.63909375,"end":5571.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5563.80284375,"end":5564.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5566.51971875,"end":5566.907843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5571.464093750001,"end":5573.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5573.45534375,"end":5579.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5579.63159375,"end":5584.204718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5584.27221875,"end":5584.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5586.5165937500005,"end":5587.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5587.98471875,"end":5593.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5593.165343750001,"end":5593.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5593.31721875,"end":5595.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5595.966593749999,"end":5596.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5596.2197187500005,"end":5596.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5596.5740937499995,"end":5596.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5596.6415937500005,"end":5597.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5598.81846875,"end":5601.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5611.55909375,"end":5615.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5615.22096875,"end":5616.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5624.45159375,"end":5626.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5627.11784375,"end":5632.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5632.28159375,"end":5643.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5643.16596875,"end":5643.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5643.503468750001,"end":5648.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5643.62159375,"end":5644.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5648.481593750001,"end":5653.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5653.341593749999,"end":5675.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5677.725968750001,"end":5677.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5677.74284375,"end":5684.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5684.712218750001,"end":5687.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5686.534718750001,"end":5686.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5688.20534375,"end":5688.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5688.39096875,"end":5689.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5689.6903437500005,"end":5689.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5690.92221875,"end":5691.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5691.9178437499995,"end":5693.048468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5694.314093749999,"end":5696.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5696.895968750001,"end":5698.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5698.19534375,"end":5700.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5700.034718750001,"end":5700.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5700.321593750001,"end":5700.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5700.4228437500005,"end":5707.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5708.607218749999,"end":5710.4803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5710.4803437499995,"end":5719.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5710.51409375,"end":5710.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5711.03721875,"end":5711.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5719.45784375,"end":5721.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5722.1747187500005,"end":5723.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5723.760968750001,"end":5726.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5728.73909375,"end":5729.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5729.97096875,"end":5730.595343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5731.4559687500005,"end":5731.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5732.384093750001,"end":5740.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5738.91471875,"end":5740.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5740.61909375,"end":5747.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5746.356593750001,"end":5751.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5751.75659375,"end":5754.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5754.405968749999,"end":5787.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5755.04721875,"end":5755.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5787.464093750001,"end":5797.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5796.779093749999,"end":5801.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5797.92659375,"end":5797.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5799.462218750001,"end":5800.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":5801.014718750001,"end":5801.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5801.08221875,"end":5801.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5801.622218750001,"end":5810.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5801.63909375,"end":5802.735968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5806.85346875,"end":5806.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5806.870343750001,"end":5807.562218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5809.75596875,"end":5811.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5811.07221875,"end":5834.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5811.10596875,"end":5811.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5834.764718750001,"end":5861.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5861.764718750001,"end":5864.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5864.97096875,"end":5889.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5865.460343750001,"end":5865.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5865.67971875,"end":5865.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5865.71346875,"end":5865.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5865.882218750001,"end":5865.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5865.932843750001,"end":5866.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5889.06846875,"end":5899.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5894.046593749999,"end":5894.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5899.22721875,"end":5899.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5899.46346875,"end":5899.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5899.7840937500005,"end":5922.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5914.14471875,"end":5914.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5922.497843749999,"end":5924.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5924.03346875,"end":5952.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5953.32846875,"end":5957.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5957.564093750001,"end":5958.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5959.60596875,"end":5961.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5962.69409375,"end":5981.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5981.526593750001,"end":5982.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5982.842843750001,"end":5984.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5984.02409375,"end":5991.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5991.972218750001,"end":5993.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5993.372843749999,"end":6015.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6015.71534375,"end":6029.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6029.77221875,"end":6029.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6029.9072187500005,"end":6030.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6030.362843750001,"end":6040.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6040.2684687500005,"end":6041.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6041.432843750001,"end":6048.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6049.98846875,"end":6051.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6051.692843750001,"end":6053.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6052.89096875,"end":6053.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6053.430968750001,"end":6067.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6067.79159375,"end":6068.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6069.15846875,"end":6071.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6072.95534375,"end":6079.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6080.279093749999,"end":6087.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6087.48471875,"end":6091.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6091.88909375,"end":6092.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6093.036593750001,"end":6095.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6096.597218750001,"end":6113.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6113.421593749999,"end":6118.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6118.956593750001,"end":6128.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6128.609093749999,"end":6131.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6132.135968750001,"end":6145.163468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6145.298468750001,"end":6146.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6146.63159375,"end":6147.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6148.403468750001,"end":6165.126593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6154.93409375,"end":6155.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6159.270968750001,"end":6159.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6165.177218750001,"end":6167.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6166.864718750001,"end":6171.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6173.192843750001,"end":6178.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6178.37346875,"end":6181.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6183.01409375,"end":6183.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6184.00971875,"end":6192.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6192.413468750001,"end":6194.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6194.97846875,"end":6200.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6201.323468750001,"end":6203.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6203.87159375,"end":6204.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6204.24284375,"end":6211.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6211.026593750001,"end":6222.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6222.11346875,"end":6234.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6235.1747187500005,"end":6237.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6237.975968750001,"end":6239.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6239.83221875,"end":6245.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6246.16034375,"end":6252.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6253.38284375,"end":6259.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6256.28534375,"end":6256.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6259.42409375,"end":6272.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6272.519093750001,"end":6273.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6274.18971875,"end":6274.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6274.999718749999,"end":6280.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6288.01034375,"end":6290.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6290.35596875,"end":6291.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6298.69221875,"end":6299.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6300.16034375,"end":6301.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6301.61159375,"end":6307.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6307.349093750001,"end":6325.017218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6325.388468749999,"end":6336.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6337.4540937500005,"end":6339.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6339.90096875,"end":6354.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6355.155968749999,"end":6370.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6371.187218749999,"end":6385.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6385.9697187500005,"end":6402.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6402.30471875,"end":6404.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6405.49409375,"end":6408.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6408.362843750001,"end":6420.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6412.9022187499995,"end":6415.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6415.12971875,"end":6415.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6419.92221875,"end":6420.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6420.9853437500005,"end":6421.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6421.03596875,"end":6426.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6424.24221875,"end":6425.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6426.655343750001,"end":6444.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6444.81284375,"end":6464.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6455.747843749999,"end":6455.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6462.548468750001,"end":6467.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6466.66596875,"end":6481.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6467.35784375,"end":6467.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6481.684718750001,"end":6481.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6481.88721875,"end":6526.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6527.34846875,"end":6527.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6528.39471875,"end":6534.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6534.94221875,"end":6539.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6539.667218750001,"end":6548.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6548.847218750001,"end":6555.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6549.4715937500005,"end":6551.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6555.360968750001,"end":6559.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6559.967843750001,"end":6562.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6562.482218749999,"end":6563.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6563.106593750001,"end":6563.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6564.034718750001,"end":6565.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6566.093468749999,"end":6596.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6567.460343750001,"end":6567.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6590.984093749999,"end":6591.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6591.01784375,"end":6591.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6591.034718750001,"end":6591.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6591.220343750001,"end":6591.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6595.32096875,"end":6599.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6599.97846875,"end":6628.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6600.01221875,"end":6602.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6604.062218749999,"end":6605.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6628.7840937500005,"end":6655.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6647.49846875,"end":6647.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6655.64909375,"end":6656.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6656.577218750001,"end":6656.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6657.15096875,"end":6689.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6682.632218750001,"end":6682.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6682.66596875,"end":6682.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6682.69971875,"end":6682.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6682.733468750001,"end":6682.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6682.75034375,"end":6682.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6690.47909375,"end":6690.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6690.698468750001,"end":6697.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6690.71534375,"end":6690.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6690.76596875,"end":6690.9178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6695.08596875,"end":6695.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6696.30096875,"end":6701.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6698.49471875,"end":6699.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6701.059718750001,"end":6706.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6704.282843750001,"end":6704.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6707.26971875,"end":6727.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6707.944718750001,"end":6708.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6708.029093749999,"end":6710.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6727.18221875,"end":6733.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6733.915343750001,"end":6734.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6734.6747187500005,"end":6735.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6736.37909375,"end":6738.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6738.454718750001,"end":6743.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6744.1415937500005,"end":6746.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6746.77409375,"end":6747.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6746.92596875,"end":6747.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6747.5165937500005,"end":6751.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6749.67659375,"end":6749.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6751.60034375,"end":6751.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6751.61721875,"end":6751.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6751.98846875,"end":6761.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6752.005343750001,"end":6752.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6760.999718749999,"end":6777.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6776.96346875,"end":6777.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6777.58784375,"end":6780.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6780.62534375,"end":6784.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6784.18596875,"end":6784.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6784.60784375,"end":6788.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6789.2147187499995,"end":6793.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6793.88909375,"end":6794.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6793.93971875,"end":6798.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6798.71534375,"end":6806.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6806.190968750001,"end":6807.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6806.950343750001,"end":6807.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6807.38909375,"end":6811.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6811.2197187500005,"end":6813.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6813.1434687500005,"end":6813.177218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6813.21096875,"end":6813.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6813.2615937499995,"end":6813.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6813.80159375,"end":6818.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6819.134093750001,"end":6819.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6819.91034375,"end":6821.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6821.985968750001,"end":6823.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6823.60596875,"end":6825.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6825.63096875,"end":6831.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6831.30096875,"end":6832.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6834.28784375,"end":6835.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6836.245343750001,"end":6839.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6849.44159375,"end":6851.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6851.7197187500005,"end":6852.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6861.034718750001,"end":6864.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":6861.28784375,"end":6862.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6865.624718749999,"end":6869.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6869.91096875,"end":6870.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6870.501593750001,"end":6870.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6870.974093750001,"end":6871.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6871.024718750001,"end":6871.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6871.075343750001,"end":6871.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6871.159718750001,"end":6888.405968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6888.91221875,"end":6888.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6888.96284375,"end":6904.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6896.202218750001,"end":6896.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6903.374093750001,"end":6903.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6904.538468750001,"end":6904.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6905.68596875,"end":6906.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6906.95159375,"end":6921.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6922.13909375,"end":6932.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6933.124718750001,"end":6934.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6935.21721875,"end":6939.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6940.41471875,"end":6948.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6949.544093750001,"end":6950.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6950.72534375,"end":6951.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6951.61971875,"end":6969.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6970.6209687499995,"end":6974.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6975.126593750001,"end":6977.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6977.35409375,"end":6978.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6978.653468750001,"end":6979.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6979.497218750001,"end":6984.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6984.9647187499995,"end":6985.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6985.0322187500005,"end":6988.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6985.70721875,"end":6986.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6987.597218750001,"end":6989.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6989.13284375,"end":6991.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6990.7528437500005,"end":7002.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7002.02534375,"end":7016.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7004.40471875,"end":7005.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7016.942843750001,"end":7017.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7018.022843750001,"end":7018.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7018.61346875,"end":7022.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7023.608468750001,"end":7024.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7026.89909375,"end":7028.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7028.87346875,"end":7029.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7030.1728437500005,"end":7031.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7031.92784375,"end":7033.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7032.552218750001,"end":7032.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7033.27784375,"end":7033.345343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7033.345343750001,"end":7033.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7033.395968750001,"end":7033.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7033.41284375,"end":7033.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7033.9697187500005,"end":7034.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7035.404093749999,"end":7035.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7035.420968750001,"end":7037.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7037.243468750001,"end":7039.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7039.36971875,"end":7040.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7041.42846875,"end":7042.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7044.702218750001,"end":7045.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7045.90034375,"end":7046.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7046.5584687499995,"end":7049.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7049.5790937500005,"end":7050.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7051.41846875,"end":7053.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7053.3084687499995,"end":7054.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7054.590968750001,"end":7057.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7059.045968750001,"end":7060.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7060.210343750001,"end":7065.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7064.46284375,"end":7065.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7065.981593750001,"end":7069.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7068.546593750001,"end":7070.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7069.964093750001,"end":7070.470343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7070.95971875,"end":7071.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7071.19596875,"end":7071.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7072.27596875,"end":7074.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7072.37721875,"end":7072.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7074.790343750001,"end":7078.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7078.5028437500005,"end":7080.173468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7080.25784375,"end":7080.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7081.067843750001,"end":7083.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7085.50596875,"end":7090.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7086.16409375,"end":7087.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7090.905968750001,"end":7100.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7101.11534375,"end":7105.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7105.772843750001,"end":7107.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7107.05534375,"end":7107.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7108.27034375,"end":7109.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7109.18159375,"end":7113.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7113.0965937500005,"end":7113.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7115.02034375,"end":7116.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7116.53909375,"end":7124.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7124.79096875,"end":7125.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7125.82034375,"end":7126.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7126.84971875,"end":7127.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7128.216593749999,"end":7131.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7132.485968750001,"end":7132.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7133.481593750001,"end":7136.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7136.097218750001,"end":7137.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7137.76784375,"end":7139.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7139.32034375,"end":7140.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7140.366593750001,"end":7143.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7143.606593750001,"end":7145.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7145.86784375,"end":7148.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7149.968468750001,"end":7149.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7149.9853437500005,"end":7154.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7153.74846875,"end":7161.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7154.339093750001,"end":7156.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7157.140343750001,"end":7157.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7160.83596875,"end":7161.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7162.00034375,"end":7166.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7167.40034375,"end":7169.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7169.762843750001,"end":7171.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7171.97346875,"end":7173.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7173.694718750001,"end":7175.095343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7176.42846875,"end":7178.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7178.4872187500005,"end":7178.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7178.55471875,"end":7181.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7178.571593750001,"end":7178.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7182.233468750001,"end":7184.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7185.135968750001,"end":7190.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7191.092843750001,"end":7191.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7192.122218750001,"end":7197.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7198.80471875,"end":7208.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7209.19971875,"end":7218.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7218.835343750001,"end":7227.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7227.779093749999,"end":7229.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7230.597218750001,"end":7231.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7232.385968750001,"end":7235.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7235.08596875,"end":7235.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7236.840968750001,"end":7248.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7243.540343750001,"end":7246.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7248.19784375,"end":7252.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7249.51409375,"end":7249.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7253.294093750001,"end":7255.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7255.97721875,"end":7256.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7256.36534375,"end":7256.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7256.55096875,"end":7256.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7256.854718750001,"end":7256.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7256.87159375,"end":7257.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7256.888468749999,"end":7259.470343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7260.39846875,"end":7264.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7260.63471875,"end":7261.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7263.09846875,"end":7266.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7265.528468750001,"end":7270.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7268.700968749999,"end":7269.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7270.962218750001,"end":7272.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7271.282843750001,"end":7285.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7272.58221875,"end":7272.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7274.337218750001,"end":7274.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7283.567843750001,"end":7285.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7285.52534375,"end":7286.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7288.32659375,"end":7294.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7289.74409375,"end":7291.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7291.583468750001,"end":7292.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7294.064093750001,"end":7295.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7296.29159375,"end":7303.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7296.325343750001,"end":7297.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7303.024718750001,"end":7305.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7305.67409375,"end":7308.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7307.83409375,"end":7310.517218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7309.8084687499995,"end":7315.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7311.02346875,"end":7312.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7315.61346875,"end":7322.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7317.081593750001,"end":7318.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7322.78534375,"end":7330.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7329.43409375,"end":7330.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7330.75034375,"end":7331.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7331.54346875,"end":7348.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7331.577218750001,"end":7333.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7349.86971875,"end":7353.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7354.341593749999,"end":7355.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7356.079718750001,"end":7357.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7358.003468750001,"end":7359.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7360.0790937500005,"end":7365.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7361.59784375,"end":7364.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7365.7997187500005,"end":7368.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7367.77409375,"end":7380.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7381.13909375,"end":7384.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7382.74221875,"end":7382.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7384.345343750001,"end":7384.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7384.5478437500005,"end":7384.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7384.581593750001,"end":7387.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7387.38284375,"end":7388.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7388.665343750001,"end":7394.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7388.6990937499995,"end":7390.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7399.22909375,"end":7400.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7401.4228437500005,"end":7404.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7411.56471875,"end":7414.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7414.46721875,"end":7415.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7416.25596875,"end":7416.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7418.061593750001,"end":7419.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7420.87971875,"end":7453.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7453.718468750001,"end":7454.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7454.02221875,"end":7454.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7454.83221875,"end":7464.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7464.0965937500005,"end":7495.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7496.81721875,"end":7500.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7501.23846875,"end":7510.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7510.55346875,"end":7514.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7510.60409375,"end":7511.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7514.384093750001,"end":7543.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7543.98284375,"end":7552.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7552.200968749999,"end":7568.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7568.9072187500005,"end":7569.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7569.81846875,"end":7576.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7576.75409375,"end":7580.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7580.567843750001,"end":7582.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7583.03159375,"end":7585.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7583.200343750001,"end":7583.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7585.64721875,"end":7590.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7591.114718750001,"end":7594.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7595.2997187500005,"end":7598.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7599.450968749999,"end":7599.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7599.467843750001,"end":7600.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7601.796593750001,"end":7609.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7608.76596875,"end":7614.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7614.689093750001,"end":7624.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7624.93221875,"end":7635.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7635.39471875,"end":7664.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7664.13284375,"end":7675.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7671.6590937500005,"end":7671.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7671.67596875,"end":7672.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7672.14846875,"end":7672.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7672.165343750001,"end":7672.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7674.84846875,"end":7703.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7703.991593750001,"end":7710.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7710.35346875,"end":7715.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7716.25971875,"end":7729.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7729.94534375,"end":7738.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7738.720343750001,"end":7743.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7743.39471875,"end":7746.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7745.807843750001,"end":7746.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7746.600968750001,"end":7758.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7754.481593750001,"end":7754.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7759.13909375,"end":7759.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7760.03346875,"end":7766.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7766.935343749999,"end":7767.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7767.6103437500005,"end":7767.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7768.825343750001,"end":7770.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7770.833468750001,"end":7775.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7776.14909375,"end":7784.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7784.856593750001,"end":7798.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7799.08221875,"end":7802.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7802.609093750001,"end":7804.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7805.005343750001,"end":7810.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7810.42221875,"end":7815.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7815.56909375,"end":7827.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7827.600968750001,"end":7831.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7832.17409375,"end":7845.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7846.83846875,"end":7856.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7856.524718750001,"end":7856.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7856.946593750001,"end":7864.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7865.097218750001,"end":7886.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7889.093468750001,"end":7892.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7891.962218750001,"end":7900.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7900.8553437499995,"end":7919.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7919.68784375,"end":7928.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7928.96909375,"end":7929.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7929.0028437500005,"end":7929.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7929.036593750001,"end":7937.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7937.524718750001,"end":7941.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7943.22846875,"end":7943.751593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7943.802218750001,"end":7944.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7944.696593750001,"end":7945.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7945.42221875,"end":7946.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7947.312218750001,"end":7951.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7951.311593750001,"end":7972.439093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7952.003468750001,"end":7952.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7972.5740937499995,"end":7982.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7982.96909375,"end":7983.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7984.251593750001,"end":7984.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7988.2509687500005,"end":7993.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8006.290343750001,"end":8007.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8013.61409375,"end":8013.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8014.60971875,"end":8016.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8016.76971875,"end":8018.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8025.71346875,"end":8037.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8037.76221875,"end":8044.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8044.84971875,"end":8046.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8047.212218750001,"end":8050.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8050.857218750001,"end":8055.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8056.392218750001,"end":8057.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8057.59034375,"end":8059.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8059.632218750001,"end":8063.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8063.715968750001,"end":8066.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8067.52971875,"end":8072.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8073.8915937500005,"end":8074.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8074.09409375,"end":8078.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8079.173468750001,"end":8082.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8082.48096875,"end":8086.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8086.17659375,"end":8089.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8089.97346875,"end":8090.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8091.39096875,"end":8094.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8095.727843750001,"end":8100.216593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8100.99284375,"end":8104.857218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8105.81909375,"end":8106.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8106.561593750001,"end":8108.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8109.497843750001,"end":8113.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8115.20159375,"end":8118.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8119.47096875,"end":8124.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8124.9384687500005,"end":8130.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8130.96284375,"end":8131.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8131.874093750001,"end":8133.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8134.42221875,"end":8135.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8136.2615937499995,"end":8136.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8136.936593750001,"end":8138.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8139.6365937499995,"end":8142.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8143.56846875,"end":8146.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8146.0322187500005,"end":8146.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8147.382218750001,"end":8150.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8151.39846875,"end":8152.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8153.794718750001,"end":8166.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8166.974093750001,"end":8172.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8173.065968750001,"end":8175.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8175.25971875,"end":8177.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8177.6053437499995,"end":8180.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8181.132218750001,"end":8182.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8182.920968750001,"end":8185.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8185.637843750001,"end":8186.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8187.460343750001,"end":8188.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8190.5653437500005,"end":8191.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8194.024718749999,"end":8194.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8195.98221875,"end":8199.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8200.454093750002,"end":8203.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8204.352218750002,"end":8209.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8209.43159375,"end":8210.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8211.11909375,"end":8212.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8212.13159375,"end":8213.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8214.004718750002,"end":8216.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8218.493468749999,"end":8220.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8221.328468750002,"end":8223.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8225.597843750002,"end":8227.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8228.16284375,"end":8228.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8231.31846875,"end":8233.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8235.098468750002,"end":8235.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8239.33409375,"end":8242.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8242.28721875,"end":8242.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8243.67096875,"end":8243.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8244.784718750001,"end":8247.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8248.446593749999,"end":8251.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8254.31909375,"end":8257.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8257.508468750002,"end":8261.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8262.23346875,"end":8264.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8264.64659375,"end":8265.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8265.23721875,"end":8266.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8268.46034375,"end":8269.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8270.316593750002,"end":8273.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8273.809718750003,"end":8276.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8276.340968750003,"end":8278.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8279.09159375,"end":8280.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8280.644093750001,"end":8284.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8285.53784375,"end":8285.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8286.297218750002,"end":8292.321593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8293.215968750003,"end":8293.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8293.90784375,"end":8295.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8295.54471875,"end":8296.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8298.329093750002,"end":8298.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8298.34596875,"end":8298.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8299.13909375,"end":8309.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8309.56784375,"end":8313.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8313.617843750002,"end":8325.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8323.40534375,"end":8324.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8324.890343750001,"end":8329.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8330.83034375,"end":8333.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8330.847218750001,"end":8335.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8336.88846875,"end":8343.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8344.38096875,"end":8358.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8358.89346875,"end":8360.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8360.98596875,"end":8365.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8365.862843750001,"end":8370.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8370.97596875,"end":8373.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8373.86159375,"end":8374.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8374.671593750001,"end":8379.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8380.594718750002,"end":8382.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8384.13846875,"end":8384.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8385.184718750003,"end":8386.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8387.226593750001,"end":8388.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8388.441593750002,"end":8390.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8391.42846875,"end":8392.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8393.06534375,"end":8395.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8396.00159375,"end":8398.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8398.937843750002,"end":8400.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8400.70971875,"end":8401.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8401.789718750002,"end":8404.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8405.72159375,"end":8408.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8408.97846875,"end":8410.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8410.78409375,"end":8411.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8412.117218750001,"end":8413.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8413.484093750001,"end":8416.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8418.20909375,"end":8422.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8422.42784375,"end":8442.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8435.50596875,"end":8437.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8441.327843750001,"end":8442.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8442.070343750001,"end":8444.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8444.348468750002,"end":8455.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8453.71409375,"end":8454.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8455.97534375,"end":8462.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8459.637218750002,"end":8460.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8461.44284375,"end":8461.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8461.746593750002,"end":8461.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8461.98284375,"end":8467.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8466.35346875,"end":8471.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8471.027843750002,"end":8477.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8477.42346875,"end":8487.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8487.02534375,"end":8487.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8488.03784375,"end":8488.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8488.054718750001,"end":8511.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8493.03284375,"end":8493.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8505.874718750001,"end":8506.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8511.105968750002,"end":8520.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8521.382843750001,"end":8523.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8524.082843750002,"end":8527.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8527.559093750002,"end":8536.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8537.312843750002,"end":8543.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8543.050343750001,"end":8549.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8549.73284375,"end":8562.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8552.36534375,"end":8553.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8553.462218750003,"end":8553.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8561.089718750001,"end":8571.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8564.65034375,"end":8567.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8571.97409375,"end":8572.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8572.007843750001,"end":8572.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8573.340968750003,"end":8582.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8581.019093750001,"end":8584.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8585.49096875,"end":8586.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8586.68909375,"end":8595.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8586.85784375,"end":8587.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8588.22471875,"end":8588.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8588.49471875,"end":8588.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8590.03034375,"end":8590.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8590.97534375,"end":8591.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8592.07221875,"end":8592.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8594.77221875,"end":8595.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8595.19409375,"end":8595.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8595.632843750001,"end":8596.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8596.915343750003,"end":8601.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8603.715968750003,"end":8605.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8605.065968750001,"end":8606.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8608.27221875,"end":8610.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8611.02284375,"end":8614.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8614.347218750001,"end":8618.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8619.13971875,"end":8619.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8629.36596875,"end":8632.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8632.96034375,"end":8634.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8641.937843750002,"end":8642.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8642.039093750001,"end":8642.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8642.984093750001,"end":8665.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8665.17471875,"end":8666.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8666.575343750003,"end":8675.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8676.582218750002,"end":8678.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8679.09659375,"end":8679.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8679.67034375,"end":8681.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8681.88096875,"end":8702.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8702.56971875,"end":8704.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8704.594718750002,"end":8719.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8720.187218750001,"end":8726.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8727.08909375,"end":8730.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8730.34596875,"end":8730.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8730.430343750002,"end":8730.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8730.49784375,"end":8734.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8733.231593750003,"end":8733.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8734.969718750002,"end":8744.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8744.504093750002,"end":8745.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8745.550343750001,"end":8745.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8745.972218750001,"end":8747.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8746.714718750001,"end":8748.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8748.250343750002,"end":8753.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8753.144093750001,"end":8754.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8753.81909375,"end":8755.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8755.30409375,"end":8755.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8755.320968750002,"end":8758.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8758.054718750001,"end":8773.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8772.887843750003,"end":8773.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8773.05659375,"end":8773.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8773.59659375,"end":8774.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8774.254718750002,"end":8774.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8775.250343750002,"end":8809.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8810.60346875,"end":8811.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8811.02534375,"end":8813.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8813.809718750003,"end":8813.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8814.72096875,"end":8818.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8819.05784375,"end":8859.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8823.41159375,"end":8823.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8823.47909375,"end":8823.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8823.52971875,"end":8823.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8823.563468750002,"end":8823.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8823.64784375,"end":8823.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8831.39346875,"end":8831.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8831.562218750001,"end":8831.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8844.04971875,"end":8844.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8853.398468750001,"end":8853.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8860.03034375,"end":8861.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8861.54909375,"end":8871.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8871.87659375,"end":8871.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8871.977843750003,"end":8872.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8873.46284375,"end":8875.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8876.36534375,"end":8882.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8882.980343750001,"end":8888.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8888.042843750001,"end":8893.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8891.92409375,"end":8897.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8896.88534375,"end":8899.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8898.758468750002,"end":8900.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8900.47971875,"end":8901.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8900.496593750002,"end":8902.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8902.977218750002,"end":8903.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8903.550968750002,"end":8903.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8903.669093750003,"end":8903.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8903.95596875,"end":8905.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8905.035968750002,"end":8912.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8912.477843750003,"end":8919.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8913.59159375,"end":8913.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8919.17721875,"end":8928.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8928.019718750002,"end":8931.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8932.00221875,"end":8946.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8946.46409375,"end":8946.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8947.08846875,"end":8957.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8957.51721875,"end":8961.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8961.837218750003,"end":8978.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8979.10034375,"end":8982.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8982.964718750001,"end":8983.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8984.179718750001,"end":8995.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8995.23284375,"end":9005.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9005.67846875,"end":9010.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9010.62284375,"end":9010.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9011.16284375,"end":9011.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9012.765968750002,"end":9014.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9014.824718750002,"end":9015.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9016.69784375,"end":9023.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9024.426593750002,"end":9027.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9028.24034375,"end":9035.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9035.749718750001,"end":9036.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9035.817218750002,"end":9035.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9035.969093750002,"end":9037.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9037.58909375,"end":9049.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9045.60471875,"end":9045.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9049.047218750002,"end":9058.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9058.969718750002,"end":9061.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9062.20971875,"end":9069.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9069.60096875,"end":9109.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9110.961593750002,"end":9117.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9118.09971875,"end":9129.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9130.08096875,"end":9137.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9137.016593750002,"end":9143.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9143.597843750002,"end":9144.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9144.019718750002,"end":9144.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9144.863468750002,"end":9147.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9146.63534375,"end":9147.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9147.31034375,"end":9147.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9147.394718750002,"end":9150.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9151.242218750001,"end":9156.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9155.79846875,"end":9161.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9158.19471875,"end":9158.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9163.004093750002,"end":9165.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9165.737843750001,"end":9167.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9773.609093750001,"end":9775.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9775.92096875,"end":9778.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9793.437218750001,"end":9794.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9794.68596875,"end":9795.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9796.37346875,"end":9797.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9805.148468750001,"end":9805.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9806.02596875,"end":9806.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9806.81909375,"end":9807.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9808.894718750002,"end":9811.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9812.590343750002,"end":9813.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9812.640968750002,"end":9812.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9812.67471875,"end":9813.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9814.547843750002,"end":9815.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9815.13846875,"end":9815.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9815.425343750001,"end":9815.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9815.644718750002,"end":9815.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9816.42096875,"end":9816.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9817.399718750003,"end":9821.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9822.462218750003,"end":9823.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9824.234093750001,"end":9825.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9826.815968750001,"end":9828.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9828.33471875,"end":9829.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9829.718468750001,"end":9832.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9833.44784375,"end":9837.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9838.78034375,"end":9839.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9839.894093750001,"end":9840.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9841.952843750001,"end":9844.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9844.68659375,"end":9848.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9849.05721875,"end":9851.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9852.58409375,"end":9853.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9853.259093750003,"end":9853.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9854.79471875,"end":9855.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9855.722843750002,"end":9856.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9857.32596875,"end":9858.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9859.40159375,"end":9860.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9861.747218750003,"end":9864.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9865.29096875,"end":9868.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9868.24409375,"end":9868.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9868.41284375,"end":9868.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9869.05409375,"end":9871.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9872.074718750002,"end":9873.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9874.875968750002,"end":9876.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9876.64784375,"end":9878.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9878.89221875,"end":9882.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9883.43159375,"end":9884.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9885.50721875,"end":9887.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9887.987843750001,"end":9890.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9891.44721875,"end":9891.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9892.324718750002,"end":9893.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9894.09659375,"end":9895.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9896.94846875,"end":9900.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9901.94346875,"end":9905.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9906.53346875,"end":9907.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9909.098468750002,"end":9912.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9913.165343750003,"end":9916.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9917.65409375,"end":9918.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9919.72971875,"end":9920.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9922.21034375,"end":9923.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9923.543468750002,"end":9924.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9925.230968750002,"end":9935.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9934.91721875,"end":9936.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9936.621593750002,"end":9940.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9941.38034375,"end":9941.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9943.320968750002,"end":9944.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9944.097218750001,"end":9945.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9945.91971875,"end":9948.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9951.45471875,"end":9951.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9953.46284375,"end":9960.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9961.512218750002,"end":9964.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9966.23721875,"end":9966.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9966.65909375,"end":9966.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9967.418468750002,"end":9974.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9975.062843750002,"end":9977.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9977.594093750002,"end":9983.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9983.85471875,"end":9984.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9983.90534375,"end":9991.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9993.000968750002,"end":9994.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9994.671593750001,"end":9994.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9994.97534375,"end":9996.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9996.29159375,"end":9997.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9998.519093750001,"end":10002.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10001.050343750001,"end":10001.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10001.387843750003,"end":10001.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10002.72096875,"end":10004.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10004.695343750001,"end":10005.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10006.129718750002,"end":10009.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10009.72409375,"end":10013.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10014.38159375,"end":10015.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10018.313468750002,"end":10022.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10022.19471875,"end":10022.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10023.004718750002,"end":10023.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10023.03846875,"end":10030.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10030.480343750001,"end":10030.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10031.61096875,"end":10035.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10036.082843750002,"end":10045.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10039.17096875,"end":10039.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10046.528468750003,"end":10048.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10050.359093750001,"end":10050.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10051.23659375,"end":10053.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10053.632843750001,"end":10053.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10054.39221875,"end":10057.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10057.61534375,"end":10059.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10059.977843750003,"end":10059.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10059.99471875,"end":10060.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10061.074718750002,"end":10061.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10062.62721875,"end":10067.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10063.757843750001,"end":10064.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10068.16221875,"end":10069.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10069.140968750002,"end":10071.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10071.030968750001,"end":10074.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10071.570968750002,"end":10072.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10072.296593750001,"end":10072.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10074.81096875,"end":10077.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10077.780968750001,"end":10078.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10079.56971875,"end":10079.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10080.109718750002,"end":10081.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10081.83096875,"end":10083.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10083.88971875,"end":10084.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10084.969718750002,"end":10086.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10086.57284375,"end":10090.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10090.656593750002,"end":10091.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10090.926593750002,"end":10091.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10092.462218750003,"end":10095.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10096.42784375,"end":10096.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10097.305343750002,"end":10098.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10099.347218750001,"end":10099.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10100.984093750001,"end":10101.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10102.23284375,"end":10103.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10103.954093750002,"end":10105.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10107.160343750002,"end":10114.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10115.665343750003,"end":10116.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10117.015343750001,"end":10118.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10119.05721875,"end":10120.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10121.234093750001,"end":10122.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10123.360343750002,"end":10126.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10126.212218750003,"end":10126.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10127.730968750002,"end":10130.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10131.13971875,"end":10131.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10133.18159375,"end":10134.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10136.28659375,"end":10139.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10139.492843750002,"end":10139.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10140.539093750001,"end":10141.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10142.47971875,"end":10144.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10145.78721875,"end":10146.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10146.74909375,"end":10147.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10149.01034375,"end":10150.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10152.300968750002,"end":10154.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10155.034718750001,"end":10157.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10157.987843750001,"end":10158.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10159.523468750001,"end":10161.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10161.86909375,"end":10162.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10162.44284375,"end":10164.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10165.04159375,"end":10166.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10167.690968750001,"end":10169.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10169.78346875,"end":10173.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10174.019093750001,"end":10174.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10175.47034375,"end":10176.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10176.75284375,"end":10177.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10177.832843750002,"end":10180.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10182.08534375,"end":10182.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10184.093468750001,"end":10185.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10188.98721875,"end":10190.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10192.109093750001,"end":10193.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10195.652843750002,"end":10197.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10199.21346875,"end":10202.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10203.53346875,"end":10204.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10205.153468750003,"end":10206.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10206.58784375,"end":10207.094093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10208.00534375,"end":10210.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10212.477218750002,"end":10214.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10215.008468750002,"end":10215.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10215.97034375,"end":10216.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10216.746593750002,"end":10216.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10217.067218750002,"end":10217.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10217.97846875,"end":10218.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10218.46784375,"end":10219.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10219.429718750001,"end":10219.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10219.750343750002,"end":10220.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10220.72909375,"end":10221.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10222.500968750002,"end":10234.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10234.684718750003,"end":10238.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10237.047218750002,"end":10241.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10242.71721875,"end":10243.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10243.999718750001,"end":10246.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10246.902218750001,"end":10247.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10248.336593750002,"end":10251.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10251.559718750003,"end":10252.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10253.78721875,"end":10255.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10255.187843750002,"end":10256.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10257.499718750001,"end":10258.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10259.05221875,"end":10259.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10259.997218750003,"end":10262.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10264.11471875,"end":10266.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10267.91159375,"end":10269.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10270.425968750002,"end":10271.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10270.98284375,"end":10271.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10272.383468750002,"end":10272.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10273.446593750003,"end":10274.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10276.062218750001,"end":10278.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10279.909718750001,"end":10280.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10281.141593750002,"end":10282.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10283.52096875,"end":10284.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10285.242218750001,"end":10286.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10286.84534375,"end":10288.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10289.309093750002,"end":10291.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10291.45221875,"end":10294.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10294.70909375,"end":10296.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10297.274093750002,"end":10297.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10298.70846875,"end":10299.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10300.969718750002,"end":10304.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10305.660968750002,"end":10306.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10307.129093750002,"end":10307.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10308.242843750002,"end":10312.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10313.37284375,"end":10315.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10314.55409375,"end":10322.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10322.316593750002,"end":10322.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10322.97471875,"end":10323.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10323.91971875,"end":10323.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10323.93659375,"end":10323.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10323.97034375,"end":10324.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10324.13909375,"end":10324.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10324.223468750002,"end":10324.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10324.949093750001,"end":10325.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10325.03346875,"end":10325.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10325.25284375,"end":10325.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10325.640968750002,"end":10326.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10326.29909375,"end":10328.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10328.45909375,"end":10331.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10338.820343750001,"end":10339.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10340.38971875,"end":10343.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10343.86596875,"end":10346.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10349.367218750001,"end":10349.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10350.12659375,"end":10352.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10353.07971875,"end":10355.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10355.45909375,"end":10357.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10357.450343750003,"end":10361.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10362.293468750002,"end":10363.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10363.289093750001,"end":10364.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10365.58409375,"end":10368.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10368.840968750003,"end":10372.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10374.359093750001,"end":10376.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10374.96659375,"end":10375.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10377.379718750002,"end":10380.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10378.122218750003,"end":10378.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10381.649093750002,"end":10385.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10386.45846875,"end":10389.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10390.17096875,"end":10394.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10394.47409375,"end":10402.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10403.046593750001,"end":10407.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10408.83471875,"end":10416.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10416.715343750002,"end":10418.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10419.145343750002,"end":10426.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10427.312843750002,"end":10429.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10430.738468750002,"end":10432.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10433.117843750002,"end":10433.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10435.075343750003,"end":10435.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10436.492843750002,"end":10441.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10442.179718750001,"end":10444.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10445.082218750002,"end":10451.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10450.296593750001,"end":10454.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10455.02159375,"end":10456.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10456.03409375,"end":10456.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10456.050968750002,"end":10456.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10456.253468750001,"end":10456.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10456.30409375,"end":10456.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10456.60784375,"end":10456.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10456.962218750003,"end":10462.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10463.425343750001,"end":10466.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10466.73284375,"end":10468.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10469.500343750002,"end":10472.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10473.21284375,"end":10475.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10476.63846875,"end":10480.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10476.672218750002,"end":10478.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10480.23284375,"end":10480.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10481.110343750002,"end":10499.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10499.976593750001,"end":10499.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10499.993468750003,"end":10507.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10504.53284375,"end":10505.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10507.992218750001,"end":10514.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10508.24534375,"end":10508.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10515.383468750002,"end":10515.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10516.446593750003,"end":10519.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10520.800343750001,"end":10523.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10523.871593750002,"end":10525.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10525.96409375,"end":10540.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10541.843468750001,"end":10546.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10546.855343750001,"end":10549.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10550.63534375,"end":10555.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10556.102843750003,"end":10567.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10568.387843750003,"end":10573.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10573.956593750001,"end":10580.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10581.63471875,"end":10583.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10584.081593750001,"end":10587.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10588.28346875,"end":10588.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10589.363468750002,"end":10590.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10590.477218750002,"end":10592.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10593.109718750002,"end":10599.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10599.57284375,"end":10601.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10602.00284375,"end":10604.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10604.820968750002,"end":10605.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10606.15409375,"end":10606.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10607.58846875,"end":10609.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10610.153468750003,"end":10611.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10611.55409375,"end":10612.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10613.190968750001,"end":10620.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10621.004093750002,"end":10627.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10628.00721875,"end":10632.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10633.457843750002,"end":10634.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10634.95971875,"end":10638.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10640.039093750001,"end":10643.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10643.886593750001,"end":10644.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10645.40534375,"end":10648.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10649.97846875,"end":10651.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10651.83471875,"end":10653.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10654.31534375,"end":10656.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10657.504718750002,"end":10666.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10666.60034375,"end":10677.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10678.817843750003,"end":10678.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10678.969718750002,"end":10683.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10683.94784375,"end":10686.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10686.023468750001,"end":10709.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10710.74534375,"end":10716.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10717.191593750002,"end":10718.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10719.75659375,"end":10730.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10730.50596875,"end":10733.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10734.606593750003,"end":10735.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10736.47971875,"end":10738.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10738.94346875,"end":10746.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10746.95909375,"end":10749.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10750.215968750003,"end":10751.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10752.19034375,"end":10753.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10754.19846875,"end":10756.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10757.03346875,"end":10761.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10762.36596875,"end":10763.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10764.492218750001,"end":10772.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10772.929718750001,"end":10789.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10791.289718750002,"end":10794.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10796.26784375,"end":10796.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10797.837218750003,"end":10799.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10800.53721875,"end":10805.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10807.202843750001,"end":10815.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10815.690968750001,"end":10816.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10816.41659375,"end":10818.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10819.11659375,"end":10822.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10822.727843750003,"end":10849.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10823.031593750002,"end":10823.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10823.132843750001,"end":10823.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10848.05721875,"end":10848.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10848.074093750001,"end":10849.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10849.32284375,"end":10849.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10851.31409375,"end":10853.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10854.95909375,"end":10857.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10863.784718750001,"end":10866.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10867.36221875,"end":10868.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10873.74096875,"end":10873.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10873.757843750001,"end":10874.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10874.972843750002,"end":10874.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10874.989718750003,"end":10882.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10875.00659375,"end":10875.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10883.66346875,"end":10892.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10887.51096875,"end":10887.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10892.03346875,"end":10892.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10892.286593750003,"end":10892.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10892.860343750002,"end":10893.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10893.02909375,"end":10905.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10905.719093750002,"end":10907.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10908.18284375,"end":10917.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10917.83534375,"end":10918.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10919.08409375,"end":10925.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10926.05346875,"end":10928.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10929.192218750002,"end":10929.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10929.20909375,"end":10929.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10929.22596875,"end":10929.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10929.27659375,"end":10929.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10929.31034375,"end":10929.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10929.85034375,"end":10929.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10929.884093750003,"end":10930.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10930.00221875,"end":10933.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10933.54596875,"end":10936.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10937.140343750001,"end":10942.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10943.29971875,"end":10953.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10953.036593750003,"end":10953.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10953.289718750002,"end":10959.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10953.30659375,"end":10954.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10959.33096875,"end":10962.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10962.570968750002,"end":10965.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10965.034718750001,"end":10965.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10965.59159375,"end":10976.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10968.477218750002,"end":10968.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10968.49409375,"end":10969.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10977.117218750001,"end":11001.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11002.14284375,"end":11003.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11003.965343750002,"end":11010.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11007.120968750001,"end":11007.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11010.85034375,"end":11048.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11013.837218750003,"end":11014.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11015.76096875,"end":11016.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11020.03034375,"end":11020.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11020.77284375,"end":11020.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11023.65846875,"end":11024.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11028.02909375,"end":11029.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11048.835968750001,"end":11051.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11051.957843750002,"end":11061.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11062.31909375,"end":11064.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11064.884093750003,"end":11066.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11067.145343750002,"end":11074.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11069.355968750002,"end":11070.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11074.03034375,"end":11117.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11117.972843750002,"end":11123.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11123.27159375,"end":11126.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11126.039093750001,"end":11127.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11127.23721875,"end":11127.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11127.270968750003,"end":11127.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11127.321593750003,"end":11127.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11127.355343750001,"end":11134.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11135.08409375,"end":11143.437218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11143.437218750001,"end":11143.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11143.89284375,"end":11143.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11143.909718750001,"end":11150.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11150.28846875,"end":11157.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11156.34659375,"end":11158.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11157.76409375,"end":11164.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11164.46346875,"end":11188.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11189.168468750002,"end":11189.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11189.94471875,"end":11206.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11207.005343750003,"end":11209.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11210.042843750001,"end":11210.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11210.97096875,"end":11217.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11217.957218750002,"end":11221.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11221.51784375,"end":11226.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11227.37346875,"end":11238.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11234.511593750001,"end":11234.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11235.743468750003,"end":11236.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11238.03846875,"end":11256.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11249.766593750002,"end":11249.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11250.42471875,"end":11250.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11255.234093750001,"end":11255.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11255.301593750002,"end":11255.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11255.976593750001,"end":11256.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11256.027218750001,"end":11256.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11256.11159375,"end":11256.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11256.617843750002,"end":11256.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11256.75284375,"end":11258.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11258.64284375,"end":11258.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11258.777843750002,"end":11258.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11258.91284375,"end":11259.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11259.01409375,"end":11271.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11271.906593750002,"end":11274.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11274.859718750002,"end":11281.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11276.749718750001,"end":11277.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11280.462218750003,"end":11280.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11280.74909375,"end":11280.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11281.390343750001,"end":11281.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11281.829093750002,"end":11281.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11281.89659375,"end":11281.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11281.99784375,"end":11294.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11294.70471875,"end":11308.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11295.008468750002,"end":11295.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11307.495968750001,"end":11308.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11308.52534375,"end":11310.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11308.559093750002,"end":11316.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11311.12409375,"end":11311.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11312.254718750002,"end":11312.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11315.32596875,"end":11317.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11316.895343750002,"end":11340.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11325.45096875,"end":11325.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11338.191593750002,"end":11338.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11340.97596875,"end":11343.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11343.945968750002,"end":11347.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11343.97971875,"end":11344.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11347.911593750003,"end":11355.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11354.492843750002,"end":11398.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11356.93971875,"end":11357.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11360.11221875,"end":11360.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11365.613468750002,"end":11365.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11365.74846875,"end":11365.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11365.86659375,"end":11366.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11367.26721875,"end":11367.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11367.28409375,"end":11367.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11367.452843750001,"end":11367.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11382.87659375,"end":11383.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11396.562218750001,"end":11396.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11396.96721875,"end":11396.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11396.984093750001,"end":11397.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11397.355343750001,"end":11397.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11400.696593750003,"end":11411.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11421.672218750002,"end":11423.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11430.227843750003,"end":11431.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11431.375343750002,"end":11433.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11434.41284375,"end":11435.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11442.242843750002,"end":11442.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11443.862843750001,"end":11444.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11445.22971875,"end":11445.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11446.461593750002,"end":11472.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11473.765343750001,"end":11485.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11485.03784375,"end":11485.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11485.61159375,"end":11485.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11486.050343750001,"end":11497.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11495.247218750003,"end":11533.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11533.50284375,"end":11535.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11535.527843750002,"end":11539.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11539.76346875,"end":11545.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11545.58534375,"end":11549.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11549.196593750003,"end":11551.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11551.559093750002,"end":11557.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11558.81534375,"end":11561.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11562.004718750002,"end":11563.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11564.012843750003,"end":11565.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11565.61596875,"end":11567.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11568.602843750003,"end":11570.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11570.661593750003,"end":11574.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11575.234718750002,"end":11580.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11578.980968750002,"end":11580.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11580.938468750002,"end":11586.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11586.96284375,"end":11602.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11590.75971875,"end":11590.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11590.793468750002,"end":11590.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11590.995968750001,"end":11591.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11603.145968750003,"end":11612.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11612.984093750001,"end":11620.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11621.117843750002,"end":11628.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11628.542843750001,"end":11646.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11646.734093750001,"end":11648.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11648.87721875,"end":11657.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11657.331593750001,"end":11669.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11669.92034375,"end":11672.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11672.957843750002,"end":11675.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11675.65784375,"end":11676.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11676.92346875,"end":11679.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11680.433468750001,"end":11685.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11685.74909375,"end":11691.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11691.503468750001,"end":11692.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11693.17409375,"end":11702.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11703.83909375,"end":11708.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11708.15909375,"end":11717.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11718.081593750001,"end":11724.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11725.270343750002,"end":11733.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11734.31534375,"end":11742.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11742.75284375,"end":11751.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11751.747218750003,"end":11762.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11757.180968750003,"end":11757.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11762.024093750002,"end":11762.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11762.074718750002,"end":11762.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11762.395343750002,"end":11790.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11762.78346875,"end":11763.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11763.35721875,"end":11763.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11763.42471875,"end":11764.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11790.036593750003,"end":11796.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11796.567218750002,"end":11800.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11798.37284375,"end":11798.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11800.11096875,"end":11805.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11805.93284375,"end":11808.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11809.274093750002,"end":11811.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11812.176593750002,"end":11814.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11815.129718750002,"end":11827.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11828.359718750002,"end":11833.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11833.371593750002,"end":11859.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11860.067843750003,"end":11865.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11866.21034375,"end":11874.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11874.867218750001,"end":11878.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11878.934093750002,"end":11885.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11886.51096875,"end":11892.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11892.40034375,"end":11897.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11898.019718750002,"end":11898.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11898.036593750003,"end":11907.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11898.289718750002,"end":11898.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11907.739718750003,"end":11909.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11909.984093750001,"end":11914.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11915.097218750001,"end":11918.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11919.434093750002,"end":11942.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11942.265968750002,"end":11946.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11946.92346875,"end":11947.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11949.37034375,"end":11953.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11949.52221875,"end":11949.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11953.21784375,"end":11961.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11954.01096875,"end":11954.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11961.90846875,"end":11965.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11965.77284375,"end":11967.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11968.523468750001,"end":11969.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11970.582218750002,"end":11972.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11972.72534375,"end":11974.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11974.919093750003,"end":11975.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11976.79221875,"end":11979.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11979.542843750001,"end":11980.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11981.85471875,"end":11988.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11989.195343750001,"end":11995.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11995.03409375,"end":11996.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11997.04221875,"end":12003.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12004.484093750001,"end":12005.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12005.10846875,"end":12013.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12014.27159375,"end":12014.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12015.16596875,"end":12016.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12016.54971875,"end":12018.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12016.65096875,"end":12016.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12016.988468750002,"end":12017.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12018.675968750002,"end":12027.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12019.03034375,"end":12019.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12027.83909375,"end":12031.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12033.15471875,"end":12033.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12034.09971875,"end":12036.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12034.20096875,"end":12034.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12035.230343750001,"end":12035.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12043.27971875,"end":12044.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12045.152843750002,"end":12047.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12047.97096875,"end":12048.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12048.39284375,"end":12048.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12052.020968750003,"end":12052.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12052.797218750002,"end":12062.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12073.85721875,"end":12075.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12076.50659375,"end":12077.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12077.890343750001,"end":12078.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12086.597843750002,"end":12087.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12087.492218750001,"end":12089.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12090.242843750002,"end":12091.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12092.200343750003,"end":12099.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12100.536593750003,"end":12100.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12101.66721875,"end":12102.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12103.03409375,"end":12106.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12105.86909375,"end":12107.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12107.269718750002,"end":12109.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12110.08784375,"end":12114.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12114.593468750001,"end":12114.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12114.711593750002,"end":12115.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12114.74534375,"end":12116.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12116.21346875,"end":12121.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12121.52909375,"end":12128.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12121.562843750002,"end":12122.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12128.565968750001,"end":12131.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12131.738468750002,"end":12140.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12140.78346875,"end":12151.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12151.667843750001,"end":12152.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12152.629718750002,"end":12156.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12157.18596875,"end":12159.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12160.35846875,"end":12162.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12162.82221875,"end":12168.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12169.184093750002,"end":12170.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12171.141593750002,"end":12171.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12171.74909375,"end":12174.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12174.65159375,"end":12180.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12181.82346875,"end":12184.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12185.114093750002,"end":12192.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12185.23221875,"end":12185.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12185.265968750002,"end":12185.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12187.155968750001,"end":12188.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12188.77596875,"end":12190.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12194.41221875,"end":12195.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12194.42909375,"end":12196.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12195.89721875,"end":12200.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12201.027218750001,"end":12201.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12201.11159375,"end":12201.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12201.145343750002,"end":12204.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12204.520343750002,"end":12206.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12206.528468750003,"end":12209.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12209.71784375,"end":12210.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12210.39284375,"end":12212.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12213.09284375,"end":12213.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12213.54846875,"end":12216.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12215.708468750003,"end":12216.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12216.50159375,"end":12216.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12216.602843750003,"end":12217.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12217.902218750001,"end":12219.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12220.534718750001,"end":12228.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12229.12409375,"end":12229.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12230.84534375,"end":12232.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12232.718468750001,"end":12236.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12236.97096875,"end":12237.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12237.98346875,"end":12247.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12248.547218750002,"end":12250.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12251.196593750003,"end":12272.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12272.83034375,"end":12277.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12277.825343750003,"end":12285.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12285.368468750003,"end":12289.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12290.17784375,"end":12293.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12293.890343750001,"end":12294.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12294.56534375,"end":12299.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12300.083468750003,"end":12304.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12305.09534375,"end":12309.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12309.027218750001,"end":12311.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12311.153468750003,"end":12317.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12318.899093750002,"end":12323.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12318.949718750002,"end":12319.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12321.44721875,"end":12329.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12330.05346875,"end":12334.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12334.47471875,"end":12336.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12337.191593750002,"end":12338.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12338.659718750001,"end":12340.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12341.055968750003,"end":12344.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12345.91596875,"end":12354.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12354.31971875,"end":12358.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12359.16284375,"end":12373.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12373.574093750001,"end":12375.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12376.020968750003,"end":12390.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12391.49534375,"end":12412.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12412.875968750002,"end":12428.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12428.50221875,"end":12436.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12436.88909375,"end":12437.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12437.614718750003,"end":12438.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12438.188468750002,"end":12438.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12438.441593750002,"end":12438.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12438.711593750002,"end":12438.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12438.79596875,"end":12438.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12441.79971875,"end":12443.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12444.01034375,"end":12452.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12452.211593750002,"end":12454.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12463.872218750003,"end":12465.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12465.711593750002,"end":12466.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12466.62284375,"end":12467.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12468.867218750001,"end":12469.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12479.32971875,"end":12479.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12479.81909375,"end":12517.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12518.327843750001,"end":12528.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12529.364093750002,"end":12533.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12533.65034375,"end":12534.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12535.050968750002,"end":12542.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12542.62784375,"end":12546.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12547.52159375,"end":12549.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12549.85034375,"end":12551.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12552.044093750003,"end":12557.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12559.03034375,"end":12569.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12569.813468750002,"end":12576.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12576.63096875,"end":12586.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12587.363468750002,"end":12592.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12592.24034375,"end":12622.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12622.88534375,"end":12623.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12623.57721875,"end":12633.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12633.246593750002,"end":12633.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12633.58409375,"end":12633.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12633.617843750002,"end":12645.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12644.82284375,"end":12662.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12663.773468750001,"end":12664.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12664.48221875,"end":12664.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12665.76471875,"end":12665.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12665.781593750002,"end":12666.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12667.43534375,"end":12672.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12671.333468750003,"end":12674.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12674.92784375,"end":12676.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12677.239718750003,"end":12684.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12684.394718750002,"end":12711.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12713.352218750002,"end":12720.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12721.519718750002,"end":12723.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12723.949718750002,"end":12727.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12726.902843750002,"end":12728.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12730.176593750002,"end":12739.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12738.614093750002,"end":12739.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12739.06971875,"end":12739.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12742.07346875,"end":12743.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12744.58784375,"end":12767.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12768.33096875,"end":12771.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12772.296593750001,"end":12776.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12777.578468750002,"end":12780.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12797.406593750002,"end":12799.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12797.54159375,"end":12798.13221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":679.54,"end":679.62,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":735.444,"end":738.319,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":775.018,"end":775.119,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":858.029,"end":858.172,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":977.453,"end":983.439,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":1326.578,"end":1346.688,"text":"字幕志愿者 杨洁"},{"start":1358.669,"end":1359.435,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1469.148,"end":1469.229,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1543.434,"end":1544.125,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":1574.738,"end":1574.818,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1613.115,"end":1622.176,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":1720.64,"end":1721.8,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":1817.591,"end":1825.43,"text":"好 我們請組密報告出席人數報告全體會 出席委員13人 1組法定人數"},{"start":1827.878,"end":1832.201,"text":"那我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1848.413,"end":1849.073,"text":"繼續進行報告事項請宣讀"},{"start":1878.277,"end":1905.746,"text":"邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員練習報告一路概況並備諮詢軒軟筆好像還沒有介紹今天的來我們先介紹今天與會的官員那首先是我們公平交易委員會我們的代理主任委員陳志明陳代理主任委員好謝謝那我們主任秘書毛浩吉"},{"start":1907.529,"end":1919.851,"text":"好謝謝公民教育委員會綜合規劃處處長胡祖順服務業競爭處代理處長陳俊廷謝謝製造業競爭處處長胡光宇公平競爭處處長沈麗玉法律事務處代理處長楊義昌"},{"start":1938.152,"end":1960.111,"text":"資訊及經濟分析室主任鄭嘉琳秘書室主任曹樹偉人事室主任陳榮欽主計室主任陳盈環政風室主任何定偉"},{"start":1961.834,"end":1973.114,"text":"好 那以上就是我們今天與會的官員那我們本日議程是安排公平交易委員會進行業務報告我們現在請陳志明代理主委報告"},{"start":1985.033,"end":2010.851,"text":"主席各位委員先進各位女士各位先生大家早安大院第十一屆第三會期開議個人很榮幸能夠代表公平會來經濟委員會提出我們的業務報告並請大院對本會的施政予以繼續的支持跟指教以下我請就本會近期的重要業務跟各位委員來提出一個簡單的說明也請希望委員能夠多多指教"},{"start":2012.112,"end":2027.758,"text":"公平會負責公平交易法及多層次傳銷法的主管機關負責調查處理事業的相關的一些競爭問題還有多層次傳銷的一個傳銷秩序的維護所以在執法是我們一個很重要的一個項目"},{"start":2029.139,"end":2050.989,"text":"那近期查處的重大案件像如投影片所示我們在聯合行為的查處部分我們處分了八家圖書經銷業者合意維持交易的一個折扣那另外針對台中台南高雄的所降職業工會他們聯合設定這個開鎖的價目表我們也處分禁止他做這樣的一個行為"},{"start":2051.869,"end":2073.445,"text":"那另外針對醫療重要的產品譬如說這個關節內注射劑有業者在實施轉售價格的維持那在經過我們調查以後我們也把它認定為違法並受到處分確保民眾不要受這個價格維持限制所帶來的不利益那布施廣告一直都是本會的重要業務那我想近期我們處分過的"},{"start":2074.426,"end":2090.21,"text":"比較值得跟各位來報告的是有關信義房屋在不時刊載傳家寶社區的成交紀錄案那另外有業者不當的對外刊載不時的預留銀行的貸款額度還有什麼銀行的信託保證的廣告案"},{"start":2090.71,"end":2104.681,"text":"那這些不實的資訊都可能會導致消費者做出錯誤的消費決定也經過我們的處分要求他停止再繼續做這樣的行為那多層次傳銷也是我們積極在管理的一個部分那近期我們針對兩個事業"},{"start":2107.604,"end":2122.361,"text":"沒有依規定來向本會報備變更這個傳銷商品還有沒有再開始實施這個傳銷前來跟本會報備我們也都有加以的處分那結合審查也是一個本會一個重要的一個業務項目"},{"start":2123.883,"end":2142.683,"text":"那結合審查過去我們一直試著要簡化這個結合的程序讓業者在申報結合的時候能夠更快速更便利的因為結合畢竟都有一些時效上的要求但是結合審查結合以後對市場競爭的影響是我們在審查裡面最重要要關注的一個問題"},{"start":2143.664,"end":2159.675,"text":"那本會在近期內的一些相關的結合案也是在投影片列出請委員參考其中值得跟委員來報告的是當然是眾所矚目的Uber Eats跟Foodpanda的這個結合案那這個結合案是我們社會高度關注的一個案子"},{"start":2159.975,"end":2175.371,"text":"那在我們做出裁處的決定之前我們召開了很多的座談會跟相關的業者學者專家還有相關的工會還有政府機關我們來聽取他們對這個結合案的一個看法跟想法那"},{"start":2176.071,"end":2191.138,"text":"我們所碰觸的議題非常廣泛從除了外送員還有對市場競爭的影響結合以後的市場價格的變動等等經過相當深入的經濟分析以後我們本會認為這個結合案對市場競爭是有補利的影響"},{"start":2191.758,"end":2210.169,"text":"那這個不利影響也無法藉由負負擔來加以決定所以我們在113年的12月25號的委員會裡面我們決議禁止這個結合那另外最近的一個結合案就是台新金融控跟星光金控的結合案那這個案子我們也是投入了不少的時間跟資源做相當詳細的經濟上的分析"},{"start":2212.23,"end":2239.158,"text":"那最後認為這個結合案有利於市場的競爭那對市場競爭未來的限制效果不是顯著的所以我們也通過了這個結合案那永續發展是全世界各國目前都非常高度重視的那我國也是一樣那永續發展在制定相關的政策所以綠色我們本會基於這樣一個趨勢我們也制定了一個企業的綠色轉型的一個"},{"start":2240.959,"end":2261.362,"text":"一個指引那我們在113年開始著手研擬這個參考的指引這個指引的目的是希望能夠提供國內的業者在落實永續經營還有綠色轉型的過程當中可能有些個相關的事業的作為會跟公平法的規定有一些相抵觸的地方"},{"start":2262.003,"end":2287.519,"text":"那我們藉由這個指引希望能夠提供業者一個明確的方針讓他知道說哪些個紅線是不能踩的所以在這個指引裡面我們明確的列出可做的作為還有絕對禁止的行為還有必須要跟本會來申請經過本會審核以後才可以做的一個行為那我們希望藉由這樣的指引能夠讓業者能夠一個明確的營業的一個相關的一個參考那降低違法的風險"},{"start":2288.78,"end":2303.076,"text":"那不實廣告是本會業務的大眾向來我們都處理很多的一個不實廣告那除了個案的採取之外我們對於不實廣告的預防宣導還有各方面的一個這個跟媒體之間"},{"start":2304.097,"end":2314.506,"text":"透過媒體來傳遞不實廣告的類型希望民眾能夠特別小心這個有些不實廣告的一些類型不要被騙那這個我們都是齊頭並進來進行那傳銷事業"},{"start":2320.509,"end":2336.484,"text":"在我國是一個非常重要的商業活動我們的統計是從事傳銷事業人數已經超過了370萬人那整體的營業額超過1000億台幣那為了保護這個傳銷事業的教育秩序跟傳銷商的權益呢那我們持續的在監督"},{"start":2337.705,"end":2359.659,"text":"多層次傳銷的一個相關的交易的一個秩序那我們也積極查處不法的傳銷行為那加強審查傳銷報備案件我們也會進行實地的傳銷業務檢查那除此之外我們也辦理了多層次傳銷的管理系統的線上操作還有管銷多層次傳銷法令的規範的說明會來強化業者跟民眾對傳銷法規的認識還有風險的意識"},{"start":2366.343,"end":2394.237,"text":"那另外就是有關財團法人多層次傳銷保護基金我們也會持續的監督跟輔導希望他能夠扮演多一點的功能特別是對於傳銷商權益的保護的部分那法規是持續不斷的要精進的特別是整個的市場交易狀況經常都在變動那這點本會也是非常的積極在隨時在檢討法規的妥適性那近年來由於電子商務的快速發展所以事業附會像"},{"start":2395.477,"end":2423.516,"text":"這個搜索引擎來購買關鍵字廣告或者說利用搜索引擎來優化的方式那這些常常會引發一些搭便車或是一些不當攀附競爭對手商域的爭議那一樣我們為了希望能夠讓這些爭議的解決方式能夠提供業者一些比較明確的依據所以我們在113年的12月我們訂立了一個公平交易委員會對於網路關鍵字廣告相關案件的處理原則那希望能夠對事業在行銷"},{"start":2425.698,"end":2451.876,"text":"產品或服務的時候能夠有所遵循避免觸法那另外113年的多層次傳銷管理法我們修正加入用電子文件製作來參加契約那我們有召開座談會然後甚至於我們制定了一些問答集希望能夠讓業者知道這樣的一個制度所帶來的便利性也讓業者知道如何去運用這樣的一個制度來優化整個傳銷事業的環境"},{"start":2454.077,"end":2476.809,"text":"其他的修法部分我們公民交易委還修正了事業侵害著作權、商標權或專利權警告函案件處理原則這些對於科技業對於他們在實施制裁權來進行相關的產品的銷售或競爭的時候這些都是他們必須要注意到的一些法規的規定"},{"start":2478.03,"end":2493.969,"text":"那物價的漲跌是整體經濟活動的綜合表現但是物價的變動如果說有涉及到人為的操控或者是有其他的反市場競爭的行為的時候這個時候可能也會妨礙到市場價格機能的運作那"},{"start":2495.351,"end":2511.01,"text":"當出現這樣的現象的時候本會就會積極的進行查處這個刻意的哄抬聯合漲價的一個行為那本會也是行政院穩定物價小組跟物價聯合計查小組的議員那我們會積極的我們過去一直持續跟積極的跟經濟部農業部"},{"start":2513.072,"end":2538.471,"text":"還有法務部內政部等相關部費對於這個物價的波動背後的原因還有查處必要的時候進行溯源的調查我們都有積極的在參與那我們也會去注意到農畜產品的像這個小麥麵粉黃豆沙拉油等等這些民生必需產品的一些價格的波動情況還有它的試礦的情況那主要目的還是希望不要有人為操控跟聯合行為"},{"start":2539.292,"end":2566.882,"text":"那另外針對重要捷徑譬如說三捷、春捷、端午捷、中秋捷這些相關的應景的產品是不是有違反公平交易法的可能我們都會這是例行性固定的都會進行市場的調查我們會實際到各個市場去了解一下這些應景產品的價格的波動的情況那除了調查以外我們也會宣導每次到了這個捷徑的時候我們會透過媒體來跟民眾還有工會來宣導不要進行聯合定價的行為"},{"start":2567.842,"end":2577.331,"text":"那為了增進各界對本會的主管法規的認識強化民眾知法守法的意識那本會也十分重視這個競爭倡議的工作我們113年的時候選定跟幾個產業還有民生相關的重要議題"},{"start":2583.677,"end":2605.743,"text":"預售屋的交易流通業瓦斯安全器材不時廣告多層次傳銷我們切合產業需要辦了很多的說明會那我們並主動的走入企業界所以我們辦理了公平交易法G2B的直達車我們提供客製化的訓練課程如果企業有需要我們就依照他們的需要他們想關心的議題我們來制定上課的教材"},{"start":2606.443,"end":2625.414,"text":"那113年的時候我們首度跟法官學院合辦了經濟分析看公平教育法這樣的一個訓練課程那因為公平法這部法律跟經濟有密切的關係那我們希望能夠跟法官來進行一定程度的交流讓他知道在整個公平法裡面經濟分析所可以扮演的角色所以我們第一次舉辦這樣的一個研習會"},{"start":2628.684,"end":2644.886,"text":"我們希望能夠做過這樣的方式來提高這個案件執法的品質那針對大學院校還有偏鄉地區原住民新住民還有婦女長者的我們也辦理了公平教育法跟多層次傳銷的訓練營主要是提供這些民眾"},{"start":2646.107,"end":2666.036,"text":"能夠有機會可以了解一下這些重要的相關法規的內涵那在國際交流的部分也是本會的一個重點本會向來在國際交流上是非常的積極包含OECD ICN等等我們都定期的會參與這樣的會議那在去年我們也跟巴拉圭的競爭委員會簽訂的這個所謂的競爭法適用的一個協定"},{"start":2669.818,"end":2686.091,"text":"那未來透過這些協定我們希望能夠強化彼此之間的執法那在去年委員會舉辦的ICN這個國際競爭網絡的結合研討會總共有來自40多國的競爭法主管機關還有學者站加200多人參加那作為一個奉行自由經濟體制的議員"},{"start":2688.612,"end":2712.887,"text":"競爭是國家進步經濟成長的重要基石那面對國內外經濟環境的快速變遷本會一定會持續本職職責來推動優化的競爭環境那也希望以後 今後期希望各位委員能夠繼續給予本會的支持跟指導那以上報告 敬請指教好 謝謝我們陳代理主委的報告"},{"start":2714.161,"end":2736.42,"text":"那我們現在開始進行詢答委員諮詢前原例做幾點宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時的延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記都跟以往一樣那我們現在請登記第一位的邱奕穎委員發言"},{"start":2743.032,"end":2748.206,"text":"好 謝謝主席我是不是請一下陳代理主委請陳代理主委"},{"start":2756.57,"end":2782.286,"text":"邱元昭 早大理主委我想您擔任副主委的期間有多長4年4年了好像非常少有機會讓您站到備詢台尤其我們去年我在質詢的時候已經有先預判到萬一公平會主委有懸缺的時候萬一人事案"},{"start":2783.126,"end":2809.772,"text":"沒有辦法通過的時候會面臨到什麼狀況很快的現在就是這樣的一個狀態那這個公平會的人事案呢李美跟洪才龍被聯手封殺所以你們原來是有七席的委員現在剩下五席嘛對不對您剛的報告其實講了非常多你們的業務我要請教一下現在剩下五席的狀況"},{"start":2812.113,"end":2826.392,"text":"業務運作會不會受到影響你們的會議品質會不會受到影響萬一中間有遇到委員必須要利益迴避的案件的時候會不會有產生人數不足導致沒有辦法開會那"},{"start":2828.294,"end":2850.769,"text":"要怎麼做來先就有利益衝突要迴避的時候我想這個可能性是有的如果說真的遇到有利益迴避那委員必須要迴避有可能會遇到人數不足的問題是那至於業務那你們公民會的業務很顯然就會立刻受到影響就會受到影響會就開不成了會就開不成了嘛對 是會有這樣的問題不過這個案子我們希望也不要太多要不然就沒辦法處理了"},{"start":2851.63,"end":2865.591,"text":"你希望不要太多但是有些案子不是你能夠掌控的對不對有一些你的這些公平交易的案子送上來不是你主委說這個我要接這個我不接這個可能會有利益迴避的問題所以我就不接所以未來的這個情況"},{"start":2867.512,"end":2890.547,"text":"有可能還是會持續的發生會持續的存在公平會的運作裡頭嗎是不是這樣好這個呢剛剛我想這個我們提到了很多的這些案件副主委您自己怎麼樣定位即使你現在是代理的主委你怎麼樣定位您現在的角色跟未來的方向我可不可以聽一下您的看法"},{"start":2891.616,"end":2913.583,"text":"我想現在是代理主委嘛那理論就是我做的工作就是主委做的工作所以主委所應該要盡到的責任當然就是我必須盡到的責任那對於未來的規劃我想公平會過去長期的執法已經建立了一些規範這些規範基本上如果可行而且運作上沒有障礙我會持續的遵循這些規劃當然有些地方是需要改進的"},{"start":2914.443,"end":2931.622,"text":"那這個部分我也會積極來跟同仁來做溝通過去很多時候我們在立法院裡頭包括你們的法規的修訂啦包括你們的案件審查的時序啦或者是等等這一些其實有過非常多的討論但是我們過去很少"},{"start":2932.884,"end":2944.563,"text":"應該是說比較少討論到你們的預算被刪減之後對公平會所產生的影響主委我想跟您請教一下如果就"},{"start":2945.816,"end":2952.961,"text":"我們通過的總預算公平匯你們的預算是被刪除526萬並凍結業務費30%這30%大概是1200多萬"},{"start":2963.127,"end":2978.595,"text":"那看起來好像對你們的影響不是太大因為這個錢其實很少但是呢你們在南部聯合服務中心有派駐兩位同仁喔雖然我的總的這個預算刪減沒有刪減到你這個部分但是南部"},{"start":2979.867,"end":3002.252,"text":"聯合服務中心的業務費是被刪掉百分之百請問你們這兩位同仁還能不能上班還能不能執行業務要不要去執行業務該如何執行業務主委可不可以請問一下就跟剛剛委員所講的因為南部預算中心南部中心的預算並不是在我們會裡面這邊來負責當然實質上也會影響到所以那個部分"},{"start":3003.172,"end":3031.609,"text":"其實說實在我也沒辦法提出一個什麼解決方法因為這個就是就是整體的我不要叫你提出解決方法我現在要知道是說你們的運作模式會不會受到影響比如說你現在南部中心的業務百分之百業務費都被刪除了嘛所以他在執行業務上面就會有很多的困難嘛水電衛生紙基本的文書需求等等這些都在業務費的向下嘛那你們的同仁要怎麼辦自備"},{"start":3033.189,"end":3057.381,"text":"衛生紙自備紙筆自備所有要開會的東西還是說這些東西從台北運送下來從台北帶下來還是你這兩位同仁乾脆就直接回到台北上班同仁還是在上班只是說在上班在南部上班在南部上班那他們現在的上班情況工作狀況有沒有受到什麼重大的影響"},{"start":3060.692,"end":3074.449,"text":"這個不業務會持續的執行有人了解一下嗎對 但是我們業務實施執行因為預算的三節也會的確會影響到某些一些業務推廣但是我們還是盡量不要讓它影響到民眾的權益這個"},{"start":3076.311,"end":3100.919,"text":"主委可能公平會並不直接第一線那麼多的接觸民眾所以你大概還不知道你們現在的業務被刪減之後你會面臨到的問題我就舉一個剛剛您的報告裡頭提到參與國際重要會議我不曉得您這個報告是什麼時候寫的那你講的很重要的是你們有很多國際交流跟政策的推動對不對是好"},{"start":3103.462,"end":3126.887,"text":"你知道你的國際旅費被刪多少錢嗎60%你被刪了60%然後你洋洋灑灑跟我寫了這麼多你要做的國際交流請問你要怎麼做我只問你這一條就好跟委員報告一下我們寫的是過去已經做了未來的確已經受到影響我可以跟委員講就是說將來參與國際事務目前我們已經受到很大的一個限制"},{"start":3127.947,"end":3156.406,"text":"可能影響到的就是將來派出去同仁受訓或是跟國外交流的人數我們必須要控管甚至有些會議我們就沒辦法參加了所以的確是有產生因為這個63%減對國際業務推展所以未來會怎麼樣我們還是這是一個挑戰所以主委啊我覺得你剛剛的業務報告啊你其實應該很清楚告訴大家現在的預算刪減到這樣的時候對於你業務所產生的影響你不是報喜不報憂啊你現在講的這些東西都是你未來做的"},{"start":3157.726,"end":3181.254,"text":"持續性的常態性你們都會做這些國際交流嘛我現在只有跟你講一個國際交流你被刪了60%你有很多工作是不能做的其實你應該在業務報告的時候提出來啊否則我們在檢討你的業務的時候發現你業務報告講一堆結果你沒有辦法做到那其實也是你帶乎職守啊這個立法委員就職下來還是罵你雖然預算是他們砍的"},{"start":3183.601,"end":3206.466,"text":"所以我覺得這個東西很務實的要去面對預算被刪減了之後你的整體業務推動會面臨到什麼樣的困境你其實在這一期的業務報告裡頭你就要很清楚的講所以我接下來要再請教您一個問題剛剛在講到這個聯合壟斷的事情公平會其實處理很多叫聯合壟斷這個叫做配鎖工會"},{"start":3212.185,"end":3235.051,"text":"這些鎖匙 鎖匙的這些工會 他們最近接到你們的警告說呢 他們這個工會有一個聯合定價的標準這個已經行之多年了 從民國78年成立以來 他們就有一些參考的價目但是你們現在發了一個警告函給他 你說這個叫違法 這個叫聯合壟斷"},{"start":3238.251,"end":3257.819,"text":"所以這些工會的人就很緊張啊他對民國七十八年開始就大家討論說 我這配色差不多是太多了 開色差不多是太多了大家有一個range 有一個收費的標準 不會讓人家隨便哄抬價格過去的運作都很順利 結果你們現在跟他說 你這叫做聯合壟斷 以後我可能會給你開罰"},{"start":3262.748,"end":3281.661,"text":"這是一個鎖匙工會提到的去年呢也有很多醫生來跟我反映掛號費衛福部說可以漲價所以呢醫師公會他們就去討論了掛號費到底要怎麼漲可以漲多少所以醫師公會大概有討論了一個range結果醫師公會也收到你們警告信說這個叫聯合壟斷"},{"start":3284.278,"end":3304.387,"text":"到底聯合壟斷的定義是什麼如果他訂定了一個合理的收費標準收費範圍這樣是不是也叫聯合壟斷法條上面是這樣子解釋的嗎主委我請教一下跟委員報告一下聯合行為在公平法裡面是規範最嚴格的行為就是說原則上你就是不能做聯合行為"},{"start":3304.927,"end":3330.262,"text":"當然委員有談到配所有一個合理的Range讓消費者知道大概要多少錢這個其實都可以依照公平法第15條的規定來申請豁免我們是有提供業者可以集體來提供豁免你這樣有哪些行業是可以申請豁免或是說這些工會要自己個別去申請你們有人去跟他們做過這樣子的溝通或者是說明或者是宣導宣導都有但是申請還是他們必須要主動來申請"},{"start":3331.303,"end":3350.152,"text":"透過工會等等來申請那我現在跟你舉例的這個例子比如說他現在收到了你們這個警告信他如果是可以符合豁免的是不是也能夠請你們主動來再去跟他們說明一下再去宣導然後通知他們來申請豁免我覺得有一些行業要避免被"},{"start":3351.132,"end":3377.39,"text":"胡亂哄抬價格 被胡亂收費所以它有可能產生一個定收費的標準但是我不認為這個叫聯合壟斷當然你認為在公平交易法裡頭訂定得非常清楚 可是我覺得有一些定義 或者是說有一些行業別你還是要把它作為稍微有一點區分喔這個部分是不是能夠請你們再講是 我們會讓民眾知道在公平法對於這些特殊情況的一些可行的感到好 OK 謝謝"},{"start":3379.773,"end":3400.381,"text":"好 謝謝邱映穎委員那我們下一位請呈謝謝好來我們先確認議事錄有錯誤或錯誤沒有好那我們議事錄確定好那我們下一位請林黛華委員質詢有請主委來請主委"},{"start":3413.953,"end":3438.997,"text":"好 這個你們公平會也有在作為主管機關那重點是當者 主管機關的作為是民間企業存續的關鍵我就幾個事項 外送平台合併案來破局第二個公平會的執掌跟目的事業主管機關的關係以及你身為目的主管機關的責任是什麼"},{"start":3439.697,"end":3456.785,"text":"好在这个外送平台的这个决策当中在去年11月28号本席也提出咨询关切那我也绝对尊重你们的决议但是你要注意到你的决策是会对企业的冲击跟影响是巨大的"},{"start":3457.345,"end":3472.395,"text":"也因為你們以外送平台Uber Eats併購Food Append招公平會以競爭餘力大駁回所以Uber Eats他決定終止併購Food Append的台灣他要支付多少錢"},{"start":3475.197,"end":3499.007,"text":"82億台幣所以你看你們的決策多麼重要我們看公平會的職長是什麼掌理擬定公平交易政策及法規以及調查處理失業各種妨礙競爭的行為包括獨佔結合聯合等限制競爭行為及不公平的競爭行為還要研擬多層次傳銷的政策"},{"start":3499.747,"end":3507.312,"text":"完備相關的法規並辦理有關違法的事件當然你們有沒有真的在辦違法的事件這個本性也"},{"start":3509.476,"end":3515.038,"text":"這個多次的質詢了那這不是今天的重點重點是公平會組織架構上來我們看右邊這是你們組織架構有法律事務處公平競爭處製造業競爭處服務業競爭處綜合規劃處您的多層次傳銷的產業發展規劃輔導的主責部門在哪裡"},{"start":3533.993,"end":3537.845,"text":"在公平競爭處公平競爭處那公平競爭處的業務在講什麼"},{"start":3541.513,"end":3567.699,"text":"主要是在不公平競爭嘛對不公平競爭那你又是這個多層次傳銷的主管機關啊那既然是產業的主管機關你就要去做什麼事呢來我們看目的主管機關的責任是什麼來如同企業的掌舵者你要經負引領目的事業朝向目標航行的重責大任好在這個我就爬出了一下法律字典我把它摘錄下來"},{"start":3569.259,"end":3598.237,"text":"很明顯他這個組織機關不是一個純粹的行政單位他必須具備策略思維專業知識還有有效的整合資源的關鍵角色然後他的核心的定義是什麼推動國家政策產業升級社會進步的關鍵作用您這個官署主管機關對於這個產業是有社會進步中的關鍵作用好再看他的核心定義"},{"start":3598.897,"end":3611.585,"text":"也就是說他不是負責監督跟管理而已他還要包括什麼策略規劃資源調配政策執行等面向他必須能夠精準掌握產業趨勢並根據國家政策"},{"start":3614.827,"end":3623.612,"text":"制定符合時代需求的發展策略好那您覺得您的這個公平競爭處作為多層次傳銷的主管機關的這個這個"},{"start":3632.218,"end":3651.535,"text":"輔導單位嗎我可以說是輔導單位嗎好輔導單位的話您覺得在這個公平競爭處當中有做到下面這一頁嗎我所有標了紅框的這都是經濟部在做的我想委員講的這個主責機關的責任我想基本上我贊同啦就是說他的他是有積極的有規劃的作用但是"},{"start":3652.296,"end":3675.829,"text":"因為多城市船廈事業本來一直都是公平會在管所以沒錯我們是一個公平競爭處在管但是我們也搭配船保會了有很多比較規劃的事情是船保會太好了您就講到船保會公平會你竟然講從你的口中講出我這個主管機關我要輔導他的業務我主管機關不做而我給一個民間的他是民間法人喔"},{"start":3676.509,"end":3692.955,"text":"這個基金會根本就是個怪物因為他基本上都是民間出權百分百的民間法人但是你們卻竟然要有自己的官署代表這也不是我今天的重點而是你們就其輔導業務來講從你口中是對的喔你把你的主管機關說我不做我給一個民間的法人去做他的產業輔導跟發展這個財團法人多層次傳銷保護基金會"},{"start":3705.879,"end":3731.52,"text":"好 這個民間法人本來就不應該辦理關署好 您說交給他那我也很認真的喔 今天早上我還給他Google一下了這個基金會的組織章程你認為他的組織章程當中有所謂的策略資源 專業知識 整合資源還要有這個配合國家的政策制定符合時代需求的發展策略嗎來 您說看看"},{"start":3734.105,"end":3759.943,"text":"我想每個機關在他輔導的事業的未來規劃的現象會隨著部會的性質不同不同那傳銷事業本身是一個零售事業啦他比較不像說有些也許高科技業他有必須要很宏觀前瞻的所以我覺得在目前的制度下當然我們是主管機關主委您講到這個我就又可以點出了所以說您說經濟部的商業是就可以廢掉了他不需要沒有我沒有這樣講沒有沒有你聽我講完"},{"start":3760.643,"end":3768.933,"text":"因為這個業務就是服務業所以您看您的商業思維是什麼認為服務業不需要國家前瞻的規劃您認為服務業當中也有包含什麼"},{"start":3776.083,"end":3780.409,"text":"需要需要但是就是程度可能會有不一樣所以你們沒有辦法辦到嗎所以你認為你們還認為這個多層次傳銷放在你們這邊比較有發展性還是放在經濟部內比較有發展性"},{"start":3791.425,"end":3809.899,"text":"我覺得就整個歸管的經驗還有跟歸管的這個處理的實務來講我們基本上是可以達到所以你這你今天認同你這個是裁員跟裁呃球員兼裁判你竟然在公平交易公平呃你說你們多呃你是一個公平競爭喔你對你要糾舉各行各業你知道你的權利多棒你的權利是各行各業喔"},{"start":3817.667,"end":3823.362,"text":"財政部下銀行整個的銀行要併購主管機關叫這個金管會他要問你"},{"start":3826.718,"end":3849.846,"text":"好 那如果只要任何 我任何的只要要診病我都要問你 我光是一個這個醫院跟醫院之間大醫院跟大醫院之間要診病我也要問你 這是衛福部的事情各行各業都要問你 你這才是叫公平競爭的督導那你說你又督導這個行業的公平競爭你又輔導他能夠產業發展"},{"start":3853.927,"end":3863.553,"text":"這當然是抵觸這是我從來沒聽過在全世界的一個監理全世界都有一個公平競爭的獨立單位但是我從來沒有聽過這是台灣首創有針對業務的輔導這個行業的督導"},{"start":3874.66,"end":3879.464,"text":"好那包括你的這個產業國家發展產業升級社會進步產業趨勢的掌握資源調配政策執行你知道一個經濟部的一個商業師啊請你要不要爬梳一下那個商業師的組織章程一個服務業你看他一個商業是向各組所對應的好"},{"start":3896.917,"end":3909.216,"text":"來我們來我舉個例子吧好我就以經濟部能源署來為例好了我這個台電夠大了吧國營事業但是它絕對不是一個能源政策"},{"start":3910.441,"end":3934.534,"text":"的一個一個一個一個一個主管機關 他的主管機關叫什麼叫做經濟部他叫經濟部能源署 你看看能源署所配置下面的下面的是什麼來有這個再生能源設施有再生能源有節能有電力有油氣有能源政策及氣候變遷"},{"start":3936.175,"end":3958.868,"text":"所以不管是台電或者是相關的這些再生人員經過台電然後要做相關的服務我們民眾的業務這就是你有什麼業務你就配置什麼樣的關屬所以主管機關要有對應的業務分組所以如果我在這邊要求我的具體要求是什麼"},{"start":3959.668,"end":3967.194,"text":"那請公平會針對職場內容的主管目的主業主管機關的這個針對你們多層次傳銷的目的主管事業負責規劃並成立輔導及產業發展的組織組織及人員配置您可不可以做到呢去研議吧"},{"start":3979.507,"end":4002.293,"text":"這個因為影響層面很大對啊這個我們可能要再因為你們一直放手不做啊你就得今天我已經跟你們講過多少次從你們的李梅主委到你先生剛才你的話讓所有全台灣人民知道服務業不需要國家前瞻策略的主導這句話從你口中我沒有這樣講啦要不要再倒帶一下我是講說服務業的輔導也有不同的層次啦"},{"start":4007.014,"end":4029.845,"text":"沒有 你說在不同的部會當中有不同的業務你要不要再到 主委你剛才是說我們的業務在這個業務主管就在不同的部會有不同的做法嘛那但是您就知道說因為這個就是你們要做一個經濟發展的一個功能是不可以在公平會的 你認不認同"},{"start":4031.243,"end":4035.429,"text":"我覺得這要看過去的一個執法局你還要再講好那沒關係來那請你在一個月內"},{"start":4040.336,"end":4060.563,"text":"很明確的把所有各部會每個各部會在輔導他的產業教育部也有教育產業喔他們有相關的輔導喔那你說衛福部也好包括國防部也有相關的他們針對在國防自主的部分我們的"},{"start":4064.764,"end":4082.608,"text":"這個相關的如何能夠再跟我們的工科的業務他要怎麼的輔導下去能夠讓技術留在我們台灣這都有那你的部分就要很明確了既然你一定要去管這個業務那你就要管得好"},{"start":4085.063,"end":4106.742,"text":"包括多層次傳銷裡面的商業模式我曾經都做過簡報你們都搞不清楚我還把全世界在不管日本韓國東南亞的商業模式還要我提供給你們那這就是產業發展所以你們在這邊我具體要求除了在法律事務處公平競爭處製造業競爭處"},{"start":4109.364,"end":4137.187,"text":"服務業競爭處綜合規劃處之外針對多層次傳銷的這個的主管機關您要有一個單獨的組織出來那這個組織呢你如果不會請參照中華民國行政院各部會在輔導他的產業的時候的這個相關的業務功能分組好一個月內可以嗎"},{"start":4138.388,"end":4143.732,"text":"委員如果你講的是說我們要研究有沒有可能去設這樣的處還是說我們一定要設這個處因為這個如果要增加一個管制多層床下那個是一個組織的改變OK你一定要設一個你要一個處或組因為在你的執掌當中欸 主委啊看清楚 你看你的組織當中是什麼會你看在第四頁當中叫做公平競爭處製造業競爭處"},{"start":4166.087,"end":4181.855,"text":"服務業競爭處綜合規劃處所以跟法律事務處你不要告訴我你要把它放在綜合放在競爭處是不可能的最後是不是要找個時間去跟跟另外人說明一下"},{"start":4182.555,"end":4190.637,"text":"主委啊 您是博士啊 因為有人建議涉及到整個組織當然啊 所以我就是要點出你根本主管機關 根本沒有這個組織工人業務的分類 那你要怎麼管你根本沒有辦法管 你沒有手腳 你沒有預算可管你告訴我下面的所有的主委好 謝謝"},{"start":4212.52,"end":4219.183,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝戴華委員來我們下一位請陳婷菲委員質詢謝謝主席 召委我們請代理主委來請主委"},{"start":4236.769,"end":4255.658,"text":"主委最近台積電的議題非常夯那現在一直在討論說台積電未來如果跟英特爾合併有合併的相關計畫或是合作的計畫那這個部分我們公平會會扮演什麼樣的角色"},{"start":4256.475,"end":4276.883,"text":"首先說明說台積電跟英特爾合併目前就是在媒體上的傳聞那個當事人都還沒有證據證實那本會對於這個結合的立場就是說如果將來真的發生這樣的事情那當然第一個我們要看的是他們合作的模式到底是怎麼樣如果是符合我們公平法的結合那以他們的市佔率也好已經達到那個門檻我們當然必須要審查 對"},{"start":4280.393,"end":4304.701,"text":"怎麼審查?審查就是依照一般的結合案件我們在處理水平結合UberEat等等就是有一套的標準來審查這個東西但科技業比較特別的是創新的因素可能我們也會納入一個沈重的考慮主委因為我想他們兩個是極大的這個真的是大事"},{"start":4305.919,"end":4328.016,"text":"而且對於我們台灣來講如果說依照他們的營業額是一定要我們審查的啦那是不可能沒心知這兩個這麼大的企業如果做一個結合或合併其實那真的是國際間的大事所以我們應該要準備好"},{"start":4329.178,"end":4348.151,"text":"因為現在雖然媒體不斷的在討論我們也還沒有得到這些訊息可是我們勢必要有所準備萬一發生了我們是不是有這樣的能力去審查這樣的一個相關的機制"},{"start":4349.071,"end":4372.102,"text":"這才是重點有 我們內部已經有在準備了有在準備嗎有在準備 對所以有在因應這個事件的發生對 就是未來看他們的情況發展我們事先都有一些因為我覺得一定要讓人民安心為什麼我今天會特別提出這個問題因為台積電他投資一千億在美國一千億美元"},{"start":4373.413,"end":4401.668,"text":"基本上從我們的國安跟我們的經濟其實我們的總統都有掌握很清楚的訊息可是因為我們不方便對外說這是商業機密我們沒有辦法去代替台積電去跟大家說清楚可是卻被誤解了說我們是人家已經結了婚我們才知道"},{"start":4403.325,"end":4409.785,"text":"但並不是如此所以我今天會跟您提醒說媒體已經吵得沸沸揚揚了"},{"start":4411.243,"end":4439.245,"text":"但是我們必須跟人民署說的我們公平會也準備好了我們一定有能力審查這個跟委員說明這個能力非常重要不要說事情發生了然後人家質疑一我們沒有辦法回答質疑二沒辦法回答這會寄所謂台積電到美國投資一千億美元這樣的訊息可能會在一級的重砲"},{"start":4441.485,"end":4461.756,"text":"所以這個對台灣的經濟影響層面其實人民也知道在所謂的投資跟擴廠每一個企業體他一定會在每一個世界每一個國家的點去做他自己最有力有效的一個擴廠"},{"start":4463.553,"end":4471.143,"text":"所以在台積電它已經擴大到全世界都需要它的晶片"},{"start":4473.024,"end":4497.216,"text":"所以他勢必一定要在全世界設廠跟我們台灣的能量其實沒有影響因為我們台灣我們還是在接單我們的擴廠還是繼續沒有影響到台積電在原本台灣設廠的一個計畫並沒有可是現在大家就會有很多的故事會產生"},{"start":4499.414,"end":4522.674,"text":"我跟委員報告啦 如果針對目前大家關切的議題從競爭的部分 從公平會接受審查的部分現在大家關心的議題在我們的架構底下我們都可以審查所以我覺得代理主委在現階段媒體潮的沸沸揚揚的當中勢必我們也應該要對外表達我們的態度沒有問題 我們也準備好了"},{"start":4524.175,"end":4551.602,"text":"必须要进到我们公平会审查的机制只要是在法规已经到了我们国家所定定的标准那么我们审查是没有问题我觉得应该要对外很清楚的表达第二个部分就是说我们公平交易法其实从2023年的6月预告修法草案到现在"},{"start":4553.112,"end":4578.577,"text":"請問我們現在的進度是如何我們的修法草案也經過對外徵詢 學者專家座談其實我們已經擬出我們的版本 目前已經在行政院已經在行政院 院會討論對 未來就配合行政院那邊的進度對 那院會討論了嗎還沒有討論還沒討論 對那你從2023 6月預告修法草案到現在然後到目前今年是幾年了2025來"},{"start":4582.137,"end":4609.406,"text":"居然行政院院會還沒討論你知道現在的公平交易法為什麼過去到現在過去那已經是沒有辦法符合現在所謂整個交易市場的一個趨勢所以很多法已經沒有辦法控制現在目前所謂交易的狀況導致人家在想辦法"},{"start":4611.252,"end":4627.029,"text":"對我們的消費者其實是很大的一個壓力甚至每一次檢舉都沒有辦法到位因為我們的法就已經沒有辦法來保護到我們所有的在交易一方弱勢的部分"},{"start":4629.166,"end":4633.488,"text":"我想委員提的就是我們要修法的原因要與時俱進那我們會持續來跟行政院那邊來溝通2023年6月預告修法草案到現在"},{"start":4642.321,"end":4668.751,"text":"我們提的案我有提修法草案也就是針對整個事業結合申報的門檻擴大聯合行為規範的範疇修正行政調查的規定還有真定判決書一定要登載在新聞電子報當中讓大家知道哪些是惡質的一個企業行為讓他們清楚哪些已經被判了"},{"start":4669.531,"end":4697.719,"text":"我們所有的一個消費行為就要小心還有要修正違法結合的行政責任規定還有強化不公平競爭的監管力度還有效果我們現在的監管力度太低了所以每次只要檢舉到我們公平會最後都是查無實證結束掉那對於"},{"start":4699.099,"end":4710.308,"text":"弱勢的一方是很傷所以強者越強弱者越弱是現在公平教育法裡面所呈現的不公平狀態"},{"start":4712.202,"end":4735.245,"text":"所以大家期待這一部法令的修法期待那麼久為什麼修不出來2023年6月預告到現在居然到現在修不出來原因在哪裡我想這裡面主要是在修法的這幾點當中有些點社會當中有一些比較不一樣的看法那需要再進一步的討論就對外徵詢裡面有一些想法"},{"start":4735.885,"end":4763.714,"text":"是啊對外徵詢完之後我們要利用這些徵詢意見的不同陸續去開很多的協調會跟座談會然後代理主委我要報告當然會有漢格啊當弱勢的一方跟強勢的一方會不會有漢格你要站在哪一個位置我們要保護弱勢的一方啊當我們保護他的時候"},{"start":4764.895,"end":4778.408,"text":"我們給予強勢的一方更多的監管當然他們會有意見啊他們不會那麼笨吧笨到不會為自己表達意見可是是在於你公平會站在哪一個角度"},{"start":4780.458,"end":4799.207,"text":"你公平會站在哪一個角度對啊 事實上我們持續都有在跟這些不同意見來做一些溝通的對啊 重點是在於你公平會站在哪一個角度嘛你要站在弱勢的一方還是強勢的一方嘛你要怎麼去做一個平台去調和嘛我們的職責當然是從保護市場競爭來落實保護消費者是啊所以當然會有漢格啊"},{"start":4805.441,"end":4825.192,"text":"那如果你因為漢革因為大家意見不同一直拖我告訴你公民教育法修不出來絕對修不出來我們都持續要更新怎麼沒有拖2023年6月預告到現在預告到現在現在已經2025年的3月份了"},{"start":4826.294,"end":4849.083,"text":"所以我想因為現在在行政院那邊 我們會持續跟行政院來看這個進度多久 你預計多久 你覺得多久還是你要跟我講說 我們再請公平教育委員會的主委出來之後再說那時候要出來 什麼時候要出來不知道我想這部分我們還是要跟行政院這邊來密切的來溝通一下對 多久你們預計嘛"},{"start":4850.524,"end":4873.879,"text":"你們預計多久嘛從2023年6月拖到現在馬上要兩年了因為行政院那邊還有很多的他們要處理很多事所以你也不敢定時間嘛所以就表示說這是遙遙無期的嘛可是你知道這個遙遙無期會影響多少在市場競爭弱勢一方他的權益我們知道啦我們會會謹記在心啦會持續的來關切這個問題那個主委"},{"start":4880.489,"end":4899.212,"text":"我需要一個月給我報告進度好不好報告現在到底到哪一個進度我沒有說叫你一個月要申出來啦我沒有那麼殘忍因為我知道這當中有多必須要協調的一個月報告進度好嗎 謝謝等一下"},{"start":4909.138,"end":4911.64,"text":"好謝謝廷輝委員那我們下一位請張祺凱委員質詢"},{"start":4952.516,"end":4966.62,"text":"有關你知道很關注的台積電去投資Intel甚至是進一步的這個結合現在一方面是因為路透社已經報導了因為川普那邊的壓力非常的大"},{"start":4968.322,"end":4993.588,"text":"那公平會這邊的角色非常重要的現在不是只有台灣的龍頭跟美國的龍頭要結合這裡面更重要的是什麼?那台積電是賺錢的他們現在是撩錢撩槓所以才會出現前陣子經濟部長郭志輝失言就講了蒙古政這個事情所以現在公平會的責任就非常非常的重大了這個結合案你剛剛講了幾個重點第一個你說"},{"start":4997.642,"end":5020.956,"text":"一定會審嘛 對不對 如果這個事情成真 對不對如果符合結合的定義 因為我們不曉得他們合作的模式會怎樣因為如果符合結合的定義 符合這個是會審的他依照目前的市佔率跟營業額應該是應該 等一下講一次真的 剛剛什麼 在什麼狀況下應該是符合的符合公民交易法的結合定義 我們公民交易法第四條有定義什麼叫結合目前看起來 你說目前照這個第十條是符合的嘛 對不對"},{"start":5021.816,"end":5038.203,"text":"規模我不曉得因為他們合作模式可能是不見得會構成結合如果是不見得會涉及到收購股權或是合資這樣的東西他可能單純譬如說在美國設立一個百分之百的子公司等等類似這種模式那有可能不是公平法的結合如果不是我們當然就審判兩個槍"},{"start":5040.384,"end":5066.302,"text":"兩個台灣最強跟美國最強的這個結合看起來就是符合歷史啦目前是這樣所以第一個你是說要看有沒有符合如果結合那營業額是在那裡倒到門檻當然他們就要送箭進來我們為什麼那你現在已經在準備這是第二個我們有準備這是第二個第二個對不對那第三個我覺得是更重要的不能夠損害到台灣的利益所以剛剛講的我剛剛為什麼提郭志輝這個郭志輝郭部長那個講話當然後來是失言可是他講的也是一部分的事實"},{"start":5067.659,"end":5092.834,"text":"你說我賺錢賺成這樣啊那你現在一直在賠錢我怎麼可能去呢這個我是覺得公平會一方面是依照你們這個規定來做這個事情之外你要注意到護國神山到底這樣會不會影響到我們台灣的這個經濟發展護國神山我們的一些先進的這個製程會不會被搬走更重要的喔我剛剛講的不只是對方賠錢喔Intel現在要我們去投資的是什麼川普要我們去投資什麼代工耶"},{"start":5094.759,"end":5103.864,"text":"為什麼台積電叫做我們的護國神山全世界最強的這個代工占全世界先進的這個製程九成以上你又要去幫對方一個那麼強的做代工"},{"start":5105.88,"end":5128.695,"text":"這對台灣的利益是非常博弈的所以到時候請在這個審查過程裡面也要注意到台灣的利益好不好所以我想在目前的審查的規定底下我們整體經濟利益的部分我們會充分來考慮相關的一些議題來 另外我再問你一個最近很重要的一個事情你今天報告啊第十月提到你們一個很重要的任務公平會就是要穩定物價避免人為的壟斷你們還要經營一個"},{"start":5133.571,"end":5157.78,"text":"維護一個公平競爭的環境現在我問你國外進口的這個鮮奶前幾天中華民國農農協會他們說出來抗議準備要上街了他們說國外進來的這個鮮奶船運沒有很少搭飛機來的嘛對不對都借船來的啊借船要幾天"},{"start":5159.175,"end":5178.435,"text":"大部分要30天嘛你不管紐西蘭美國進來都30天保存期限60天結果上面標的是什麼都是鮮奶這是不是一個不公平的競爭我們台灣的肉農這麼辛苦然後生產那麼好的這個鮮奶才應該可以標示台灣鮮奶對不對"},{"start":5180.295,"end":5207.725,"text":"結果美國、紐西蘭各國要來他也標了一個叫先來這是一個公平的競爭嗎?報告委員 這個比較是屬於商品標示的問題啦標示 可是標示完之後就是沒有當然如果說這種這不是違反你的所謂的公平競爭嗎?他如果說有這種標示要達到不實誤導消費者當然有可能會有不實廣告等等問題但是如果純粹就標示是不是先來這件事情來講這是商品標示他造成的結果就是一個不公平的競爭嘛這就是屬於你要管的這個範圍之一啊"},{"start":5209.656,"end":5232.883,"text":"我們會看具體的事實如果說事實真的有出現誤導消費者我們當然有可能是可以在不實廣告等等剛剛講的是事實嘛除非他搭飛機來搭船就是大部分都要30天啊對不對30天怎麼可能還是先來更重要更重要的這當然牽扯到定義行政院2月份已經開了會了"},{"start":5235.1,"end":5249.167,"text":"清楚的定義保存14天以內才叫鮮乳我想我剛剛跟國研報告就是說如果不屬廣告的問題的話我們也許有介入空間那其實我們跟這個相關的出管機關"},{"start":5250.086,"end":5276.448,"text":"有在做不實廣告的一個分配 責任分配像這個食品廣告是由衛福部來主要是是標示的問題嘛 可是我剛剛更清楚跟你講這個對我們國內的肉農就是非常不公平嘛然後講對我們消費者也不公平啊我要去買一個鮮奶給我的小孩喝或者是喝個鮮奶你給我標示是你的鮮奶一般的台灣民眾很多人也不曉得說國外進來的進口主要坐船坐30天啊"},{"start":5277.369,"end":5301.377,"text":"對不對它就形成第一個不公平的一個競爭的環境標示不應該這樣標嘛你剛講標示有問題嘛 對不對第二個它形成就是一個不公平甚至是欺騙這個社會大眾嘛漏農 國內的漏農受傷害我們的消費者也受傷害現在更重要 我現在跟你講因為台灣的漏農跟消費者抗議之下我們的行政院本來"},{"start":5302.694,"end":5330.922,"text":"在上個月已經清楚定義啦以後保存期限14天內才叫鮮乳嘛要不然你就是長效乳啊以後只有我們台灣的鮮奶可以在14天內的你就蓋一個上面就標示是台灣的鮮乳如果是國外的一百你30天借准的就不能再標示了是不是這樣我想委員會去不公平競爭是一個很廣的概念啦不公平競爭裡面就是我剛剛提到有可能會產生不實廣告那這個在部會的分工裡面衛福部會會優先來處理這個食品的不實廣告不只衛福部做嘛我就說這也是屬於你的範圍啊"},{"start":5332.779,"end":5356.746,"text":"他已經形成了不公平的競爭了嘛,對不對?要不然你那個公平競爭處裁掉囉,要裁掉嗎?剛剛委員報告,不是競爭是有很多類型啦,公平競爭是一個大的概念對啊,很清楚是一個,你用卡達夫想也知道這是不公平的競爭好,所以你做兩件事情,第一個你們應該去看經過行政院這樣二月份的這個定義之後,是不是很多進口的結算來"},{"start":5358.206,"end":5380.953,"text":"還上面是寫鮮乳這個應該就是要處理的啊這是一個啊第二個更重要的你們現在就是要在行政院開會的時候還包括你自己的職權以後這個不公平的這個環境一定要打破嘛這樣才能夠保障我們的消費者喝到真正的鮮奶啊是不是這樣第二個落容才公平啊好不好我給大家看一下這個多嚴重大家知道嗎我們看我們進口乳的這個成長左下角啊民國97年到現在短短15年97年的時候啊"},{"start":5388.496,"end":5405.408,"text":"到6000公噸 大家知道嗎到112年 千年啊已經多少 13萬7000多公噸了成長了23倍他本來市佔率在我們台灣進口主的這個在我們所有的這個牛奶啊 2%現在已經22了"},{"start":5408.717,"end":5429.194,"text":"那你怎麼可以放任 放任了22%的這個產品本身標示是有問題的 又對我們的消費者又造成這個不公平對我們的肉農也造成不公平另外我給大家看一下 你看我要特別請我的助理辦公室去你去這個 看一下 你看紐西蘭鮮乳100%日本進來全部都是寫100% 然後寫一個鮮乳"},{"start":5436.386,"end":5451.188,"text":"這是這幾天去拍的阿你二月份行政院已經做了這個決定了捏這是不只違反這個他違反了兩個嘛違反了我們的標示第二個違反了你們公平會應該去查的違反這個公平競爭嘛"},{"start":5452.418,"end":5471.279,"text":"我想委員關切這個標示的問題我覺得這個還是主管機關啦衛福部他們要就是他們的執掌範圍之內啦那不公平競爭如同剛剛跟委員報告的他他其實有他的個別要件類型也很多那就假設我剛談到不實廣告這一塊齁其實我們在部會之間的分工這個還是由衛福部先來處理啦"},{"start":5471.94,"end":5496.838,"text":"那當然如果說有一些案子是屬於比較灰色地帶的確有產生一些對消費者不公平的情況我們就會積極來思考是不是在公平法裡面會有可以來加以處理的一個問題所以我今天非常具體的要求來我看一下我要求你們做幾件事情第一個你要確保不同乳品之間的公平競爭環境這是你的業務啊對不對我剛剛講他顯然進口乳跟我們的本土的這個鮮奶競爭"},{"start":5499.509,"end":5527.005,"text":"環境是不公平的所以你要維持市場乳品的穩定的同時不要因為標示有問題產生的這個不公平的這個競爭你要進一步去保護肉農跟乳廠之間的合理的這個交易把這個秩序要弄清楚好不好這三個都是你的業務範圍當然主委主委你都要一直一直在推說最上游的就是這個衛福部嘛我剛剛已經跟你講了行政已經做了定義了當然這兩天我知道美國商會現在來抗議了"},{"start":5529.563,"end":5543.602,"text":"可是第一個行政院已經做了14天啊那時候已經做了這個定義你就第一個要貫徹先去查哪些你更進一步去查這幾天你等下下了質詢台你就可以叫你的同仁去看看現在市面上是什麼標示"},{"start":5545.486,"end":5565.263,"text":"第一我剛剛已經跟你講他量那麼大對我們已經產生衝擊了你要開胃趕快去處理這個問題還有我提的這三點趕快做好不好我會去研議你大概一萬面去做然後大概這個應該不用太久吧這兩個禮拜好不好先去查到底市面上現在標示是怎麼樣子兩個禮拜你們針對這個事情提出一個對策針對標示跟競爭的關係對對對對好不好一個兩個禮拜內給我一個很詳細的這個報告重點重點保障我們本國的肉農"},{"start":5573.53,"end":5600.293,"text":"他們那麼辛辛苦苦 他們不應該受到不公平的待遇第二個 也保護我們的所有的消費者不管台灣人 台灣民眾哪一個人我現在進了超商 到哪個地方我去買了這個鮮乳喝到的 確定是要鮮奶 好不好不能夠是喝到一個長效的奶水準正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正正"},{"start":5612.068,"end":5614.935,"text":"謝主席我想請一下陳志明代理主委好請主委"},{"start":5624.762,"end":5647.172,"text":"鄭委員早戴主委好因為我有看到那個今年月曙我們公民會有發布一個新聞他就說有一家叫海豐公司的那個載客小船然後被罰了五萬塊這件事情我不知道主委戴主委知不知道這件事情我知道你知道OK那我們看到這件事情就是說"},{"start":5648.573,"end":5675.159,"text":"海豐遊艇這個公司我們後來就隔了兩個月我們在上網繼續去看那發掘這家公司還是一樣用海豐遊艇在做網站名稱然後一樣用遊艇租賃作為選項那針對這樣子的事情其實我們一樣看到就它一樣可以挑選船什麼狂歡之舞五號狂歡之舞一號璀璨之翼請問這些部分這三艘船哪一艘是遊艇"},{"start":5677.899,"end":5688.503,"text":"我想這個案子應該是只要是遊艇應該就可以出租了我們這個案子處理的是他宣稱他是最大他的不實的地方是在於他對外所以他是遊艇所以你們認為他是遊艇我想這個"},{"start":5694.549,"end":5706.195,"text":"載客小船客船還有娛樂漁船這個不包括其中不包括這個算是遊艇嗎這個不包括遊艇對所以你們罰他你說只是廣告不實還是因為他也不符合遊艇相關的一個規定"},{"start":5708.649,"end":5726.34,"text":"我們主要是針對它的廣告的不實那顯然你們在開罰當中的時候可能也還沒有很落實因為我們如果針對是遊艇的時候它必須要有驗船的一個那個許可的核可你知道這個事情嗎那顯然它到底有沒有你知不知道我們請處長來說明一下是"},{"start":5732.638,"end":5750.66,"text":"跟委員報告齁這個案子呢因為他當時的廣告的宣稱是說全台最大遊艇遊艇租賃所以其實這家公司呢雖然他當時營運的有一些是所以你覺得他把最大拿掉就合規合法了你的意思是這樣子嗎"},{"start":5754.825,"end":5764.856,"text":"那你們再回去稍微查一下就是說它這個部分 因為我們看到的情況它就是載客小船嘛 客船然後漁船 漁樂漁船"},{"start":5766.918,"end":5786.838,"text":"這些都不是遊艇喔所以你們如果說當時只是因為他寫了最大這兩個字你們開罰他五萬塊錢然後感覺他還是在繼續那我在想說針對這個部分你們回去稍微再去研究一下後續狀態再給本席一個很清楚的狀態到底是開罰最大以外他到底是不是合規的遊艇公司好不好"},{"start":5788.246,"end":5810.878,"text":"我們這個部分會再了解那跟我們報告他主要因為他是做租賃所以他是說他是可以去租遊艇來做租賃的理解那他到底有沒有所以我才問你說狂歡之舞1號是不是遊艇嗎他上面網站他們都可以直接選擇你現在跟我爭辯這狀態他到底是不是嗎你們都還不確定的時候你在跟我爭辯這事情我們會去了解"},{"start":5811.158,"end":5833.932,"text":"OK好那接下來我想問一下就是代理主委因為在這一次的那個公平會委員的人事同意權當中的時候我們看到了就是我們前主委他之所以沒有過關很大一個部分是因為在2022年公平會有條件通過全年併購大論發案件的時候那麼有委員在"},{"start":5835.453,"end":5859.746,"text":"會議當中要求全聯每年要捐3億元贊助活動那當時前主委的時候他身為在現場他沒有表示任何的意見而你會順利通過是因為有黨團他覺得你很有擔當你坦承這件事情屬實那麼也表示自己當時有提醒有違規之餘"},{"start":5862.167,"end":5888.699,"text":"詳細的狀態是不是這樣子是這樣子是這樣子喔OK那我想請教一下那現在因為你順利通過這個就是人事統一權的審查你現在是代理主委那對於這件事情當時顯然你都認為有違規之餘的情況的時候那現在你身為公平會的代理主委的時候你針對這件案子你覺得有沒有要重新調查的一個必要"},{"start":5889.139,"end":5889.699,"text":"所以OK"},{"start":5907.17,"end":5922.026,"text":"那這個案子既然已經通過那事實上當事人也沒有針對再提起所謂的一個救濟的程序那另外對於公益捐款這件事情其實全能本身他是主動就一開始的申請的時候就主動說他們可以做一個公益捐款"},{"start":5922.626,"end":5941.065,"text":"我看到你們當時有一個新聞稿當中因為他有提到有七大條件其實這邊裡面有一個部分他特別提到你們特別提到說就全聯他自行承諾可是我們看到如果說回歸到你那過程當中的時候就有委員要求他每年繳3億的時候"},{"start":5943.187,"end":5961.367,"text":"那這樣子才通過那當然這樣子有很多人的討論所以我本身要問的狀態是當你現在變成代理主委的時候你對於那過程當中是不是有一些行政上面的不夠完善的地方那我們這邊公平會這邊能夠做什麼"},{"start":5963.325,"end":5982.581,"text":"我想這個案子就如同剛剛跟委員報告因為這個案子已經基本上本質上就是已經確定通過然後當事人也沒有爭執那公益捐款的部分當事人也承諾也繼續持續在捐款所以我們就基於這個案件的法律上的安定性跟確定性來講我們覺得這個案子似乎也沒有再重啟這個調查的程序了"},{"start":5982.941,"end":6003.553,"text":"OK所以我可以這麼理解說除非全聯他們再提出來否則公評會這邊不會自己再重啟這個部分的調查是這樣的意思嗎目前我們沒有打算重啟調查理解因為我在想說他這當中有一些邏輯上的問題因為當時如果有委員提出這樣的一個公益捐款的部分的時候要求廠商去做"},{"start":6004.113,"end":6029.164,"text":"才能夠讓他去併購另外一家公司那當時顯然是這樣子的方式條件出去那我看到你們這邊他說用自行承諾的方式顯然這過程當中可能就是公平會也認為這當中有一些些的違規的一些疑慮所以在字眼上面也不是這麼用可是我認為當你現在變成代理主委的時候我覺得對於以後碰到這樣的問題可能要特別的一個謹慎是"},{"start":6030.845,"end":6048.308,"text":"因為這個事情在這一次的一個人事同意權就反映出來了到底誰真的擔當有誠實那就會反映在這後續的狀態所以我們後續會注意我接下來想問一下主委你知道Google現在占台灣的一個搜尋市場大概有多大"},{"start":6050.311,"end":6071.72,"text":"相關的大概七成左右七成喔我的數字在2023年開始的時候台灣使用Google的搜尋女性人數大概僵硬九成那這也許有一些統計上面的一些問題那我是不管七成或九成就表示它很大我們之前在討論就是Uber Eats要併Foodpanda的時候"},{"start":6072.987,"end":6089.286,"text":"他們病完之後的市場可能有七八成的時候我們認為就覺得不適合那現在Google他不管是八成九成的狀態表示他其實是台灣其實是非常壟斷的那我再往下看一個資料我會去整理了這個部分這幾年"},{"start":6091.966,"end":6111.815,"text":"全球很多很多的國家包括歐盟都對於Google違反競爭的相關的一個行為有很多很多的一個處分那我整理出了十個樣態包括說在搜尋結果當中偏袒自家的服務要求手機廠商優先"},{"start":6113.576,"end":6127.854,"text":"事先要預先安裝Google旗下的一個服務等等有十種的樣態包括美國自己都認為要求iPhone手機跟其他瀏覽器廠開發商跟Android的智能手機製造商"},{"start":6128.675,"end":6147.678,"text":"跟無線運營商都要先預設Google搜尋引擎都是有問題的所以處分Google的包括美國 包括歐盟包括印度 包括俄羅斯包括日本 包括南韓包括法國 加拿大 澳洲都處理了台灣這邊要怎麼做"},{"start":6149.199,"end":6170.565,"text":"剛剛委員談了幾個案例我們都有在注意那預載的案子事實上我們也處理過那只是說處理的結論跟別的國家不太一樣因為我們做過市場調查因為我們在公平法裡面獨佔當然是一個事實但是獨佔並不當然會違法我們要看他的行為有沒有濫用這個力量去行為所以這十個樣態的時候包括了說"},{"start":6173.237,"end":6181.576,"text":"天然自家的一個服務包括了一個預設這個事情包括了比方說其他的"},{"start":6183.112,"end":6203.381,"text":"新聞的註冊權相關的使用包括了捆綁各種的廣告科技工具等等這十種樣態的時候我們公評會這邊都有去檢討過嗎我們有做過市場的調查就是我們特別去問說這類型的行為在台灣的市場業者之間是不是的確也存在類似的問題"},{"start":6204.321,"end":6221.43,"text":"那基本上我們所做的調查結果基本上回來的表示都是說台灣比較沒有這方面的問題針對這個部分我想你知事後給我一個很清楚狀態我們公評會怎麼去看待Google這個事情那對於Google壟斷的事情我們有沒有"},{"start":6222.37,"end":6242.938,"text":"之後會不會有一些具體的做法還是你之前的那個調查結果之後就是未來確保Google接下來就可以反風順還是我們會不會有一些相關的數位市場的一個競爭法案的提出我們會持續的觀察數位市場的演變就是我們這本來就是我們在"},{"start":6246.399,"end":6274.221,"text":"處理獨佔力量用聯合行為各方面我們都會持續去處理所以公民會現在有沒有打算要擬一個數位市場競爭法案目前我們是從強化數位執法能力來著手目前沒有規劃要特別針對一個專法來那麼針對這個部分跟Google你們之前研討的狀態還有針對世界其他的國家針對這十種Google的樣態你們去做一個分析之後再給本辦公室一個很清楚的一個說明是好不好是 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":6275.029,"end":6279.453,"text":"好 謝謝鄭正前委員那我們下一位請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席 邀請主委來 請主委邀委員早"},{"start":6300.445,"end":6323.666,"text":"主任好 我們針對於不動產以廣告不實誤導消費者那公平會你們最近也針對於預證建設股份有限公司跟廣城廣告那麼開罰 原因是什麼呢他聲稱說8分鐘可以突破到高雄捷運紫縣預定地的P12站"},{"start":6325.627,"end":6354.511,"text":"預定的P12站以及15分鐘可以到高雄的這個紫縣預定P12站那經過的發現捷運目前還在審議中根本沒有公佈過預定的站點所以這些廣告聲明與事實不符那違反了公交法第21條的第一項規定所以你們開罰了那這個開罰也讓我們大家都可以更清楚的知道"},{"start":6355.251,"end":6359.834,"text":"不能造假所以本席要在這邊請教也就是這一類是屬於虛偽以及誤導的這個表示所以正式開放那本席要請教"},{"start":6371.281,"end":6390.171,"text":"周邊交通對於民眾他們在買屋買房以及他們的生活是非常非常的考量慎據這非常重要所以會導致有人會用這樣子的一個廣告以淨捷運站來做宣傳那麼本期要請教有了這個開罰你們是不是應該也要好好的去盤點"},{"start":6397.436,"end":6403.723,"text":"因為有開罰的事項絕對在隱藏方面還有會不會有什麼作為請教"},{"start":6405.543,"end":6431.946,"text":"跟委員報告齁 這個進捷運站把這些還沒有政府還沒有確定公開的站長直接把他先擺在這根本還在審議中啊怎麼會有這個站呢這個案子不是第一案啦這個之前我們也處理過類似的 類似這樣的案子那不是第一案 那現在還持續這樣我們公平會有什麼作為我不希望我們民眾被騙 這是重點是是是 所以這些案子每次處理完以後我們都會對外發新聞稿然後提醒民眾要注意到這個問題"},{"start":6432.938,"end":6453.38,"text":"那當然在我們在查處上來講我們不管是網路的查處或是說個案的查處我們都積極會把這些案例類型類為是我們查處的重點所以在這些不動產的廣告裡面我們都會特別去關注這樣的問題好 會特別關注但是有1又有2又有3表示我們的方法還不夠精進方法要去調整你怎麼樣去宣導"},{"start":6454.321,"end":6480.986,"text":"本席認為非常重要如果你只有發了一個新聞稿當然有1又有2又有3民眾受騙的機率就會增加我們還有座談會跟各地實際上到各個縣市去做一些要精進方案接下來本席跟你討論的是全球氣候變遷那麼公品會你們在2月19號也發布了事業因應環境永續涉及聯合行為的參考指引你其中有三項"},{"start":6482.046,"end":6499.937,"text":"一項是為相互約束事業競爭者的這個活動那無聯合這個行為疑慮的這個情況第二個你是構成容易構成聯合行為若是事業認為對於環境永續他是有幫助的必須依法申請"},{"start":6500.737,"end":6526.858,"text":"對不對第三個是一過程違法聯合行為之情境希望透過這樣的指引讓廠商自我檢查是否合規這個非常好所以本席要跟你討論的是在這樣子的一個情況之下請教你們要如何的確保這個指引對企業他是有約束力的以避免形成壟斷跟限制競爭性請教主委這個"},{"start":6528.439,"end":6543.286,"text":"我們這個處理原則裡面基本上就如同剛剛委員報告這三點有點概念上有點綠燈黃燈跟紅燈但主要的目的其實就讓業者先知道如果他們要落實淨零排放那有些可能有時候會涉及到業者彼此之間必須要合作共同來做"},{"start":6543.726,"end":6567.189,"text":"那這個會不會抵觸到公平法的聯合行為所以我們提供這三個指標讓企業去評估讓他有所參考的指標但是本席要跟你討論的是之所以提出這一個論點也就是說這個議案因為這個是非常的重要企業界大家都努力配合政府在檢探但是有一些法規他還不是很清楚"},{"start":6567.649,"end":6584.798,"text":"甚至是他務必還要去做的必須要來申請的所以本席具體建議因為你在2月19號發布如果只有貼一個告示那很多的廠商他還不是很清楚所以本席是希望像這樣的一個情境跟上一題討論的議案一樣你們應該要廣為宣傳廣為宣傳"},{"start":6589.48,"end":6615.86,"text":"不管是在各工會或者是各管道要好好的去異業結盟去宣傳我們四月份會開始就會跟業界來宣導四月份開始你也把你預計要怎麼做你書面資料給本席好嗎我們希望好好去宣導要不然有些廠商看到這個指引不是很清楚也不知道該怎麼做協助廠商大家一起能夠讓我們的環境更永續這是我們討論這一點的最重要的一個指標"},{"start":6619.262,"end":6636.417,"text":"接下來本市要請教3月12號決議對網銀國際股份有限公司處以20萬的罰金因為網銀公司在取得威秀影城股份三分之一的股份後沒有依照規定"},{"start":6637.918,"end":6656.088,"text":"沒有依照規定結合前向公平會提出申報所以違了公交法的結合申報程序對不對你們罰了20萬元那這個事件也暴露了在整個併購的程序他遵循似乎"},{"start":6657.468,"end":6678.385,"text":"到底是不了解还是故意不申报我愿意相信民众不太会故意不申报因为这么大的指标公司还会导致这样的一个情况所以本期要跟主委来讨论的就是说你们到底针对于企业并购申报程序的宣导跟教育"},{"start":6679.065,"end":6706.61,"text":"到底是怎麼做華大威修這麼大的一個公司連網營他都沒有申報他是挑戰你是不是還是他根本不知道要申報請教請教那個我想這個案子主要是針對他應該來申報或未申報因為他那個結合案我們是通過的那只有兩個原因啊他故意不申報第二個他不知道要申報根據我們事實上有跟當事人詢問過這個問題啦那他們的表示是說這是疏忽啦"},{"start":6707.55,"end":6733.682,"text":"這是疏忽 這是他們的疏忽要怎麼樣確保企業能夠充分了解奔並軍巡守法相關的法規我想這也是政府的一個責任那所以對於沒有不知道要怎麼申報或者是疏忽或者是任何的一個理由我們還是要依法我們業務單位都持續有在做宣導這些結合的申報程序電子化以後該如何這個我們持續都有在做"},{"start":6734.722,"end":6745.067,"text":"您這樣的回答 您說你們都有持續在做那連這麼大名牌的公司都沒有給你申報那你預計要怎麼精進啊"},{"start":6746.823,"end":6776.503,"text":"我想這個案子你要怎麼精進你要多宣導還是要提高法源還是怎麼樣我想這個因為你們一直在一直有在宣導但是一直事件發生這個就是我們必須要怎麼去精進我們會繼續持續的思考看有沒有更有效的方法那剛剛委員談到宣導跟處罰這兩個我們大概都是並進但是宣導很重要因為畢竟這個企業的確有時候會忽略掉一些細節那這個我們業務單位都有持續在思考在如何做"},{"start":6776.963,"end":6793.105,"text":"主委你講到這個就重點本席要求你必須要透過任何的管道很多的工會很多的團體你們必須要去宣導因為連這個都做不來那你公告的法律是沒有用的"},{"start":6794.436,"end":6818.467,"text":"因為我們其實從去年開始有特別針對企業做了一個G2B一個宣導活動看企業需要什麼我們都會派人去跟他講公平法所以結合這一塊一定是重點我們都會跟相關的企業來一個重點企業需要什麼我們會派人企業不會告訴你請你主動去宣導好不好請你主動去宣導做水庫嘛水庫理論啊才能夠圍堵嘛"},{"start":6819.207,"end":6832.117,"text":"是嗎我們目的也就是希望第一個大家守法第二個民眾不要受騙民眾不要受騙這是你公交會非常重要的一個職責好嗎 加油好 謝謝委員好 謝謝楊委員那下一位請呂玉玲委員質詢"},{"start":6850.008,"end":6852.441,"text":"謝謝主席 請陳代理主委請主委"},{"start":6861.529,"end":6888.163,"text":"陳代理主委 本席想請教一下不時的廣告的查處算不算公平會的業務是一個重要的業務是一個重要的業務 那在近年來的話這不時廣告增加的趨勢是越來越多那我們看到這歷年來從2019年到2024年增加次數越來越多那我們公平會有什麼查處的工具跟方法你們做了哪些"},{"start":6889.296,"end":6904.086,"text":"工具很多特別是針對不動產案件的案子我們有網路上的查查實地的宣導跟業者公會座談那當然在其他的一些不實廣告的案件裡面我們也會主動的去了解特別是當假設媒體有披露都主動去了解"},{"start":6906.094,"end":6920.949,"text":"戴主委因為最近這個案件累計下來這294件裡面就有不動產部分你也提了不動產部分就有58件那你說你主動去查但是你有去開罰去處理的案件幾乎都是檢舉的"},{"start":6922.19,"end":6939.197,"text":"都是檢舉的那像不實的廣告他已經刊登在不管是大看板啊或者是在網路上宣傳啊你們只要有去查處都看得到但是沒有主動性都是受害者跟你們檢舉你們才去查處"},{"start":6940.458,"end":6968.517,"text":"就像有些的建商他說他這個房子是有可以挑高的有夾層的但是結果消費者進去之後的話才發現他這個夾層會被處罰會判為違建 違建人就要拆除掉甚至有些的工藝區的房子他也當作一般住宅在賣也會被拆掉這種情形買房子是如何的大事這他的所有的財產他的房子"},{"start":6970.886,"end":6995.964,"text":"結果呢 結果他房子被拆了 結果他沒地方給住了這個傷害是非常非常的大所以 代理主委 你們的查處就是這樣子而已嗎其實我們都很積極啦 因為像積極沒有主動啊 你有沒有一件主動的地方在哪裡你舉例說都是你要檢舉的嘛 受害者喔事實上針對不動產部分 我們有專門的一個team在做網路上的監控啦"},{"start":6996.404,"end":7021.896,"text":"就是會在網路上看各個建商推出的不實廣告如果有競爭不實廣告疑慮的所以你們看了都沒有覺得不實廣告所以你們沒有自動出擊的都是被動就像高雄的男子這個捷運的這個站點這現在政府才做可行性評估結果他也不實廣告啊8分鐘就可以到這個捷運站結果現在你們對查處這個案子你查處了多久你查處多久"},{"start":7026.963,"end":7042.112,"text":"人家檢舉去了 你還要查處 查處多久不用你們主動去看你不知道你查處多久這個我們再確認一下 我再確認一下那個時間點是 現在已經完售了 銷售7億你們罰多少60萬對 那我們公平交易法的21條 它是罰多少"},{"start":7051.482,"end":7079.981,"text":"最高從五萬到多少五萬到兩千五百萬兩千五百萬你的罰款的基準點在哪裡我們有一個判斷的標準判斷所以你認為他是實在的嗎輕微的廣告不死而已嗎你只罰他六十萬因為那個處罰還要看就是銷售額那我告訴你七億嘛 完售是那你們的比例原則有沒有拿出來因為有時候涉及到就是廣告期間他其實沒有賣出去啦我告訴你這一件完售了"},{"start":7081.127,"end":7098.986,"text":"我問你的是這一件 高雄男子的你針對這一題他在廣告期間 這個案子在廣告期間沒有銷售出去所以我問你嘛 現在已經完售了 而且你調查多久時間你調查都已經結束銷售了 你還要歐"},{"start":7101.158,"end":7112.098,"text":"所以公平委面對事實去做務實的查實尤其是陳主委 林美主委的時候她就說她會重罰來遏止這個歪風"},{"start":7115.083,"end":7129.674,"text":"你們沒有重罰7億的這個銷售額你們罰了60萬這是廣告商跟件商一起罰的60萬喔沒有分開來的喔結果你看不只這一件很多啊我們這幾年來的60件"},{"start":7132.563,"end":7148.565,"text":"所以工具給你們了規範給你們了法也給你們了如果說這法不夠讓你們修從2023年修到2025年兩年了還躺在行政院修不出來不夠積極就是你們公平和現代的態度"},{"start":7150.114,"end":7174.787,"text":"我想對於不用產這一塊我們會持續的積極的查出來持續積極 拿出成效出來你不要有人受害者來跟你檢舉的時候他逃不回來啊房子欸 有人一輩子才買一次房子欸就沒了 就被拆掉了所以公平交易法是保護民眾這保護你都做不到 那你就公平會員沒有用處啦"},{"start":7176.482,"end":7197.51,"text":"所以請你們再積極一下法也給你們了 工具也給你們了你們的主動不要再等受害者來檢舉了 好不好好 接下來我想請問一下還是不死廣告因為廣大的民眾還是被等於是 算是詐騙嗎因為不死廣告也算是被詐騙就是最近這個有一番賞"},{"start":7199.791,"end":7226.064,"text":"這個一番賞這個隨機的這個扭蛋來摸彩那但是他有說多大的獎品結果他沒有把大獎放進去那譬如說這個堂吉課的這個部分的話大概在5月8號到這個去年的5月8號到11號發扭蛋的這個活動啊堂吉課的也承讓缺失所以他也補償也退費了"},{"start":7227.825,"end":7251.406,"text":"但是公平會就沒有開罰為什麼不只是唐靖克的現在很多這樣的糾紛很多我想這個主要是因為這個案子因為我想我記得是當事人跟已經達成的那個和解就是他們可是他有沒有事實的不實廣告他有沒有事實他有做廣告這個廣告本身是他有事實嘛所以他在補償跟退費嘛你們為什麼沒有開罰"},{"start":7253.342,"end":7254.706,"text":"因為他這個活動的期間不長 很短活動時間不長 你就不能計算他金額了"},{"start":7260.681,"end":7266.663,"text":"怎麼可以說因為活動時間不長金額小因為這扭蛋的話丟進去硬幣就可以扭蛋啊因為金額小因為不長因為是隨機就不用開罰所以代理主委就是誤導的效果就比較短所以這個要計算處罰完的時候這個是我們會列入考慮的有這個行為就要處罰了你要去遏止他不然大家都投機了"},{"start":7288.493,"end":7314.058,"text":"對沒錯 客處是很重要很重要 所以你說時間短客處罰款必須要跟損害時間短這快閃就不用罰了就不用負責任了要符合比例嘛就是說他的誤導效果因為這個在法律上你還是你的罰款不能夠過高可是我們就給你工具二十一條五萬到兩千五百萬是我知道 但是那個級距你要踩緊它級距就叫你比例原則啊剛剛已經叫你比例原則的這個男子的情況這個"},{"start":7315.658,"end":7318.461,"text":"捷運點的問題啊 是不是那現在這個天數少 金額少就不用罰了那你就是姑息這種活動盡量辦 只要快閃就好了應該是說不是不用不罰 而是說因為它影響你事實就沒有罰啊對"},{"start":7331.836,"end":7359.517,"text":"所以告訴代理主委這個一番賞的這個扭蛋這種活動啊非常非常的多受害者非常的多那就像你講的幾天而已金額很小所以大家就彼此一謀算了就是姑息這種歪風不斷的這個來增加民眾的受害所以連主委都在姑息幾天而已啊過了就算了"},{"start":7360.551,"end":7387.778,"text":"我不是說過了就算啦你說幾天而已啊公平會的態度是非常重要的所以我們會持續經濟的但是處理法文所以我請公平會一定要介入調查好不好因為我們民眾沒有這調查的權利也只有你們可以調查如果你們的態度還是姑息養奸的話那我們民眾就一直都是損失額那我們會積極持續的關注這個跟詐騙有一樣喔你說要有大獎結果沒有大獎在裡面是不是"},{"start":7390.035,"end":7414.123,"text":"請公平會拿出你的態度跟你的權力來執法好不好是好謝謝呂委員那我們下一位請張家俊委員質詢主席我想請代理主委陳主委請陳主委"},{"start":7418.284,"end":7418.747,"text":"陳珠瑋你好"},{"start":7421.136,"end":7448.759,"text":"相信你一定知道台積電在3月4號宣布對美投資1000億美元相當於3兆多的台幣那總投資金額已經超過台灣一整年的總預算要在美國興建三座新的晶圓廠那兩座先進的封裝廠及一座主要的研發團隊中心這個投資案是美國史上規模最大的單向外國直接投資案"},{"start":7449.52,"end":7467.94,"text":"想請問主委您覺得這個投資是利多還是利空呢對台灣來說我想這是企業經驗的自由啦我也很難去評估利多利少不過因為企業走出國際做多元化的投資這本來就是企業他基於自己的考慮會做的好 主委我想你可能不方便發表太多意見那"},{"start":7469.622,"end":7495.236,"text":"我就問一點跟公平會有關的事情依照昨天最新的消息台積電已經向美國晶片設計商輝達跟超維還有博通提議投資一間負責Intel晶圓廠的合資企業那其中台積電的持股比例不會超過50%那公平會現在有掌握任何這方面的情資嗎"},{"start":7496.857,"end":7517.337,"text":"我們對台積電最近的一些投資作物我們是有一些了解跟掌握了那至於從本會的立場來講像剛剛委員談到這些合作的模式我們會進一步先去判斷到底算不算是公平法裡面的結合的樣子是符合結合以後我們才有可能去進行相關的審查是這就是本席想要理解的就是說假設"},{"start":7518.438,"end":7543.278,"text":"這個情境分析台積電真的負責這個Intel晶圓代工部門的營運那不管是它是投資入股技術入股或者是由台積電找其他的廠商共同承接Intel在美國的這個先進封裝事業等等的情況之下會不會去符合你們事業結合的這個公平交易法第十條的結合呢"},{"start":7544.019,"end":7567.495,"text":"我們當然就是要看將來假設真的有合作的關係我們會看他具體的內容來判斷是不是符合我們公平法第10條各款的結合太陽那他們兩間公司的這個年銷售額都超過公平會規定的400億台幣那依法要向公平會申報假設未來公平會獲得申報之後要做哪些要件的檢視呢 審視呢"},{"start":7568.956,"end":7594.055,"text":"如果前提是它符合結合定義以後然後營業門檻超過接下來我們就看它的合作關係到底是競爭者之間的水平合作還是上下游業者的垂直合作那我們的審查架構不太一樣水平競爭者的審查標準那在什麼情況之下公平會會做出禁止結合的決議呢簡單來講原則上來講就是限制競爭的不利大於整體經濟利益"},{"start":7595.376,"end":7621.487,"text":"就是對市場的競爭限制程度大於整體經濟體所以就是你們也有掌握他們現在的最新的情資所以你們會持續不斷的繼續關心這件事情關心的重點當然是從公平法特別是結合這個部分我們會持續觀察他的走向還有發展等於希望你們可以主動積極甚至也不排除是不是能夠邀請他們到公平會來說明會不會請他們來喝咖啡呢"},{"start":7624.98,"end":7649.782,"text":"我們大概比較不適合去喝咖啡但是就是我們其實基本上請業者來大概就是有案子已經成立了我們才會啟動這樣的程序因為台積電是台灣的國本是我們的護國神山他應該更積極、審慎地去面對他對外的投資那政府包括公平會應該站在維護國家利益跟法益的立場審慎地來處理本案"},{"start":7652.284,"end":7669.712,"text":"那所以呢本席也希望說搞不好你公平會不需要站在一個被動的立場啊你可以主動積極啊邀請他來討論啊邀請他來update一些資訊啊這一點因為目前這些發展基本上大部分都是媒體上在轉載了所以是"},{"start":7670.192,"end":7682.021,"text":"我們會看會持續觀察看情況是不是已經大概真的具體成形我們後續再來所以也希望公平會不要站在一個被動的角度而且是主動積極既然你已經媒體看到訊息了你應該是有主動出擊的權利你也可以去邀請他們來了解一下說到底目前狀況是怎麼回事"},{"start":7690.848,"end":7707.384,"text":"等於是你在主動集結的過程當中其實你也是在協助他理解說政府的法規跟他如果要去完成他想要做的事情是不是哪一些地方要配合我們公平會的這個規定呢是 我們會看這個整個事件未來發展情況怎麼樣剛剛委員建議我們會納入 會有會審慎的考慮"},{"start":7710.367,"end":7736.574,"text":"包括說我記得幾年前有這個衛生紙之亂啊你們那時候不是很主動積極嗎我覺得這個是可以借鏡的嘛怎麼會台積電這麼重要的一個公司對台灣這麼重要的一件事情然後你們只是透過報紙瞭解你們完全不知道你們扮演的角色這不應該啊所以剛剛路委員報告我們就是要看他的事件的發展到什麼程度啦因為有時候企業剛開始在規劃的時候如果我們貿然就邀請他們來做談這個問題"},{"start":7738.815,"end":7766.03,"text":"有時候就像剛剛跟你講有時候是媒體上在報導這樣的一個消息那是不是真的會這樣做會做到什麼程度這個是我們要考慮當然本席當然是期待你們要有更多的積極作為然後能夠密切掌握最新的情況這才是對台灣人民負責任那我再接下來請問一下現在台灣詐騙橫行這個主委主委知道一年度我們台灣人民被詐騙的金額大概是多少嗎一年喔對啊"},{"start":7769.557,"end":7798.283,"text":"應該上百億以上太客氣了 我跟你說一千八百多億而且我們能夠扣押的只有一百四十幾億不到十分之一所以你這樣除起來你知道平均一天被詐騙幾億嗎四至五億所以你知道公平會扮演的角色非常重要不實的廣告尤其現在橫行五組這些不實廣告橫行五組請問公平會可以扮演什麼角色呢"},{"start":7799.224,"end":7826.654,"text":"當然就像委員剛剛講的不實廣告就是我們的執法的重點就是但是有很多的詐騙的一些所謂的廣告其實它本質不是廣告它其實單純就是要騙錢那這種詐騙的行為基本上我們會移轉給檢調機關來進行其實上個會期有很多委員也提到過那上個會期當然是李主委但是現在換了新的這個代理主委我們也希望有個新的氣象很多"},{"start":7827.654,"end":7830.296,"text":"民眾就是誤信了不實廣告才下單所以不實廣告它本身就是一種詐騙啊我記得今年行政院有發布就是更新這個打詐綱領2.0啊代理主委知道打詐綱領2.0有幾個重點嗎"},{"start":7846.857,"end":7849.538,"text":"好你不知道我講市詐賭詐主詐懲詐還有防詐其實防詐就是公平會的這個這個一個重要的業務才對啊怎麼樣讓不實廣告可以下架是不是"},{"start":7865.226,"end":7884.193,"text":"是不是可以善用這個公平交易法第21條打臉書跟購物網站不實廣告其實這些都很重要耶這是賭詐的部分你們好像有這個權利有這個責任但是不大願意去使用啊我想請問代理主委公平會一年因為廣告不實開罰到底有幾件"},{"start":7889.127,"end":7896.552,"text":"目前在去年來講的話我們有63件是63件那近10年你自己看這個數據上近10年其實平均每年開罰不到不到60件平均50.5件你要想啊我們是全台灣整年被詐騙1800多億"},{"start":7910.222,"end":7915.088,"text":"一天詐騙四至五億結果你這麼被動你一年才開罰不到六十件你覺得這合理嗎"},{"start":7920.044,"end":7940.841,"text":"我想我們都積極的在查處這些相關的不實廣告但是案子一進來以後在法律底下當然就是有一些法律上的要件要走所以我必須要講你們的書面報告上面寫說不實廣告你們主動去查查而且呢不遺餘力而且派員主動去查我想要知道你們到底派了幾個人一個兩個還是三個這個"},{"start":7948.152,"end":7966.016,"text":"主動查查我們通常就是業務單位會按照那個就是不知道所以我覺得主委這個變成是你公平會重要的業務你應該更落實的去掌握說到底有哪些人是主動在查這些東西你們派的到底有哪些人你不能說派員你如果一個兩個你也說派員而且不遺餘力結果這樣的開罰開罰數"},{"start":7973.157,"end":7984.54,"text":"離不遺餘力 應該有很大的進步空間吧我在這裡喔 特別跟主委提醒喔現在真的是公平會可以好好發揮的時候了 好嗎好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝張家俊委員那我們下一位請邱志偉委員質詢"},{"start":8006.511,"end":8018.214,"text":"請邱志維委員謝謝主席 請陳主委好 請陳代理主委"},{"start":8025.805,"end":8035.058,"text":"邱委員長 主委長 幾項問題請教主委就是上一期我們的預算審查我記得沒有錯的話大概整個公平會的預算我們是減列100萬在委員會審查的時候是凍結"},{"start":8037.847,"end":8055.486,"text":"各科目大概加總起來凍結430萬所以是全力支持公平會的這個相關的預算然後讓你們業務能夠順利去執行但是很可惜的啊很遺憾的在在院會有國民黨跟這個民主黨提案把你們業務費啊"},{"start":8056.451,"end":8062.616,"text":"解列三層 不是解列 要凍結三層業務費大概是4500左右三層大概就1500萬 對不對那你凍結業務費還要解凍這凍結三層對你業務推廣會不會造成影響"},{"start":8074.499,"end":8099.957,"text":"這個一定是有影響的只有在案件的查處上比如說同仁到外面去調查案子還有內部的召開相關的會議等等這個三減數當然會對業務推展會有影響是啊 又要馬兒跑又要不給馬兒吃草沒有這種道理啊要行政部門積極查處積極作為你又預算又給他檢列業務費是執行相關的公平會業務最重要的預算對不對"},{"start":8101.178,"end":8117.997,"text":"檢定三分之一耶 所以你們的工作能量三分之二當然 巧婦難為無米之炊你也難去做到大家的期待跟要求 因為你們預算不足委會是專業審查 我們各黨派都有"},{"start":8119.557,"end":8146.156,"text":"也經過好好的討論 也經過專業的評估 才會做成這樣預算的決議凍結430萬 那時候各科目是合理的凍結凍結 然後大部分是書面 對不對而且才減列100萬那很可惜在院會這種結果您也說了 這個會對你們業務推動造成影響影響最大的部分是哪一方面的業務"},{"start":8147.739,"end":8149.903,"text":"如果以三減數最高比例應該是國際業務三個60%"},{"start":8154.511,"end":8181.606,"text":"那這個部分的話就是影響到我們對國際間的互動還有一些對國際的承諾譬如說我們是APEC資料庫的建制單位我們是受APEC委託來建制這個國際的競爭法的資料庫您知道凍結你們的預算的這個提案這些提案的都不是經濟委員委員這些委員從來沒有在經濟委員會待過也從來沒有對貴會質詢過可以說讓說他對貴會的業務完全不了解就天外飛來一筆"},{"start":8183.004,"end":8188.267,"text":"隨他喜好 隨他的心情 大逼一揮就三層三層四層四層 五層五層國會墮落於此啊 莫以為勝啊又要要求你們這個什麼樣樣都要做得好 又不給你們預算不只在公平會 每一個部位都碰到這種問題哪一家業務員沒說好就把你們這個數了半天 把你們這個說了半天"},{"start":8211.158,"end":8235.531,"text":"然後問題是你沒有預算給他沒有預算給你 各部會他沒有辦法好好去執行所以我指的公務人員是一個國家運作穩定的力量那國家最不穩定的力量在立法院再進一步說國家最大的亂源之一在立法院"},{"start":8239.423,"end":8251.17,"text":"所以我們盡量在這個亂源之中保留一個我們的使命感我們的責任感讓這個亂流不至於失控所以真的是難為你們所以我這邊也不忍在你們業務上有更多的苛責因為預算被凍結到這種程度我請教幾個問題就是說"},{"start":8268.493,"end":8296.728,"text":"工評會這個主動立案跟民眾檢舉的案件啊這部分這個我希望能夠多一點主動查處就是說這個你們從統計年報來看你們主動調查的案件是主人遞檢那這部分呢大部分是很多你們立案的案件就是這個檢舉的案件占多多數所以為什麼會有這種狀況呢那個主委你們說明一下"},{"start":8298.376,"end":8313.007,"text":"我想我們基本上在主動調查部分還是非常積極啦主要是從媒體上或是從一些相關的訊息管道如果我們知道有一些違反公平法我們就會主動那主動案件的減少它背後的原因當然很多啦"},{"start":8313.687,"end":8332.548,"text":"那我覺得當然不排除我們會裡面可能未來要更精進這個訊息取得管道讓我們有更多的機會可以知道說可能的違法案件在哪裡那這一點我們會持續的你們人力的編制是多少人人力的編制人力大概200人總共總會大概200多人220人左右"},{"start":8337.203,"end":8360.013,"text":"這個大家都夠病就是說有不實廣告的狀況充斥在這個所有的這個平台或者媒體對不對所以你要不要特別去主動去查處不實廣告不實廣告你有時候從這個這個藥品啊或者是這個其他的產品啊或者是這個投資啊所以你們要有一個"},{"start":8361.073,"end":8382.76,"text":"分組針對不同的產品去做主動的查處特別是現在很多的不管是電台電視台或者是廣播或者是平面媒體或者是所謂的社群平台都有很多保健食品的廣告"},{"start":8384.178,"end":8403.313,"text":"而且啦 保健食品它的這個 占的篇幅還蠻長的 連每個廣告時段都有這時候他用這個 我也不知道是真是假啦他用這個專業的醫師來做推薦 他用名人來推薦 都是保健食品他說他聊一下多好 而且這個廣告的時間蠻長的"},{"start":8409.283,"end":8416.718,"text":"你看每天你去看这个电视台到底他们所这个贩售的所广告的这个保健食品"},{"start":8418.257,"end":8443.831,"text":"到底是曾市委有沒有誇大這裡面有沒有去調查因為剛剛委員特別關切這個保健食品還有他們通常誇稱療效這部分其實是衛福部我們在部會分工上來講是屬於衛福部要來主管那當然如果不落入這個衛福部主管的部分他也是不實廣告嘛對他是不實廣告但是因為衛福本身也可以管到關於食品衛生所以責任分工是這個不屬於你們的業務囉"},{"start":8444.411,"end":8459.072,"text":"就是比較涉及到專業 譬如說宣稱療效保健食品 宣稱可以治療癌症等等這些部分因為涉及到醫療專業所以在當初的分工上是由衛福部那衛福部如果那一種類型的不實廣告就是跟譬如說食品"},{"start":8459.713,"end":8487.157,"text":"那實際也有食藥署啊 食品也有他的專業啊因為衛福部本身也有查處不實廣告的權限啊那我疑惑是說你們查處不實廣告是針對哪一類型的這個不實廣告就是我們其實沒有設定說特別類型但是如果是主管機關他可以優先來處理的就由他們優先但這就變成是說全職劃分的這個模糊啦有時候衛福部說不實廣告是公平衛福部要去管的公平衛福部說你專業是應該衛福部要去管的"},{"start":8488.423,"end":8503.022,"text":"到最後沒有人管我們是一般的不實廣告啦就是衛福部如果認定說這其實很為一般的不實廣告就是譬如說衛福部認為說這個廣告其實沒有涉及到療效單純就是一般的不實的廣告誇大的廣告這會把案子移到我們這邊我們就會處理這樣的廣告"},{"start":8503.542,"end":8526.891,"text":"那剛剛委員垂詢的這個監測部分所以你就沒有辦法去主動啦主動的部分其實我們有做蠻多的特別是在不動產的環境所以我覺得各部位你要跟各部位去釐清啦特別是公共衛護部這種保健食品或者是這個有全身療效的部分你們分工要明確而且你們是要聯合去處理專業的部位他們來來定裁處的部分是你們去"},{"start":8527.651,"end":8548.288,"text":"你可以去主動去調查 主動去了解 調查之後 依請在衛護部表達意見衛護部認為說它的確有誇大療效 它實際上也超出不實廣告法那查處應該是由你們來裁罰才對啊因為依照衛護部它本身的法規規定 它知道發現這個誇大療效 其實它本身是有裁處的權利"},{"start":8549.81,"end":8572.351,"text":"就是只要是認定是衛護部他們的所謂誇大療效那你們有沒有採取的權利我們採取的權利就是剛剛跟委員報告一般的不實廣告就是說雖然他感覺要涉及到保健食品但是他沒有到那個誇稱療效你越講我越糊塗我越聽不清楚了我這邊我都有一點一知半解那你一般人怎麼去了解說你們到底插手是哪一部分是是"},{"start":8573.376,"end":8600.532,"text":"因為主要是看特別法跟公平法之間的關係有些特別法它本身就賦予主管機關一些查處不實廣告的權利那你們過去一年查處不實廣告有幾案63件 處罰的部分樣態能不能提供資料給我就是說你這三件是查處哪些不實廣告那廣告的內容是什麼 參與是什麼所以我們會後提供委員好 在會後提供 63件是不是那裁罰金是多少錢"},{"start":8603.929,"end":8632.188,"text":"沒關係啦 那會後再提供啦會後我把資料提供給你好 謝謝好 謝謝邱志偉委員那下一位請謝一鳳委員質詢那謝一鳳謝昭偉質詢後我們是不是休息10分鐘好謝謝主席我想要請我們陳代理主委"},{"start":8633.425,"end":8633.849,"text":"請陳代理主委"},{"start":8642.995,"end":8659.061,"text":"你看一下這是2013年到2023年台灣數位廣告跟電視廣告整體市場金額的比較你看到從過去以來就是說電視廣告比較高到數位廣告比較低到2023年數位廣告已經超過了電視廣告那這個數字"},{"start":8667.165,"end":8681.265,"text":"給主委了解 我相信你也非常清楚喔那對於數位平台上面有商家指定平台支付或者是物流的服務那這些部分"},{"start":8681.986,"end":8701.697,"text":"因為平台業者他有拒絕提供用戶數據給晉升者或第三方或者是利用演算法的或者是未揭露的順序排序這樣子的規則對於特定的商家降權或限制流量"},{"start":8704.658,"end":8724.908,"text":"這請問例如像是新興的就是跟演算法有規定或者是數位平台上面他們有特定次序的這個部分的時候那請問公平會你要怎麼樣子介入以及監管我想委員提到的這些數位平台上面濫用數據演算法來排除競爭這個在"},{"start":8727.13,"end":8749.595,"text":"我們的公平法架構底下我們事實上都是可以去監管的只是說在監管的時候我們有一些前提要這樣符合譬如說數位平台要有市場力量另外一個更重要的是說它本身是不是真的有這樣的行為如果它真的有自我偏好的行為而且這個自我偏好的行為是那對於演算法那個演算法也是一樣現在陪同你上來備詢的這位是服務競爭處的處長服務競爭處的處長對 他是負責數位平台"},{"start":8755.376,"end":8772.575,"text":"那它對於數位平台的演算法它是不是比較清楚我先簡單跟委員報告數位平台演算法主要在國際間關切的問題就是利用演算法來達成聯合定價業者同樣都用一套演算法所以我也知道你的價格你也知道我的價格你調價我也調價所以是主要關切那這個我們持續都有在關注對處長要不要"},{"start":8775.305,"end":8800.727,"text":"有沒有相關的補充因為對於演算法這個部分其實一般的就是說購買的業者或者是消費者他並不了解說演算法的這樣子的推播的這個他的次序或者是規則是如何的但是如果在於就是平台他怎麼樣子推播給這些消費者的"},{"start":8801.027,"end":8812.929,"text":"那會不會導致於引導消費者的偏好等等的那這樣子怎麼樣子我們公平會怎麼樣子介入委員是不是請處長跟委員稍微做一下報告"},{"start":8814.773,"end":8843.638,"text":"委員目前的演算法做一些推波主要是在目前看起來是比較是為了要增加消費者比較良好的一個體驗譬如說我們有時候有搜尋引擎譬如說我搜尋了運動用品列曾經有搜尋過那他可能會感受到說我對於運動用品比較有興趣那就推出一些相關的廣告那以前過往的媒體的廣告呢是一種平面媒體或是一般的廣告他是不知道特定的人"},{"start":8844.238,"end":8872.152,"text":"所以它是一個比較沒有辦法針對性那它現在這可以做分眾這是一種比較數位時代進步上的一個進步那至於說目前說有沒有競爭法的問題的話我們有是有在關注但目前在利害分析上我們認為說這部分可能是比較有益於消費者的部分但如果有限制競爭的問題的話當然我們也會注意以上那你們怎麼監管"},{"start":8873.696,"end":8874.562,"text":"我的問題是你們怎麼監管"},{"start":8876.411,"end":8901.511,"text":"我們當然除了自己主動會去了解譬如說這典型例子就是說業界或是市場上有傳出或者說國外之間有一些具體的案例我們就會去注意說國內是不是本身有這樣的問題那請問你們要跟什麼機關一同會同去如果涉及到比較數位技術的部分當然就跟產業主管機關我們會有密切的合作那是什麼數位部還是經濟部都可能數發部數發部經濟部都有經濟部對我是說這樣涉及到會不會是跨部會的"},{"start":8906.392,"end":8931.11,"text":"很多案子我们必须要尤其是在技术面的部分我们其实很需要速发部的一些专业上的见解就是在技术上面你们需要的是速发部但是在整个产业方面是不是应该要汇同经济部有时候产业上的一些数据一些事业的分布状况我们也是需要有一些主管机关来提供一些相关的数据做我们判断的基础好那现在就是根据"},{"start":8932.732,"end":8960.933,"text":"我們媒體報導的台積電他可能就是要入股了英特爾的這樣子的情況那還結合了輝達、超微還有博通等那未來他們如果入股了而且經營英特爾的這個晶片製造的合資企業我想根據我們之前台灣金聯的董事長施俊傑他說"},{"start":8961.914,"end":8981.38,"text":"他說無論是合作方式是投資入股或者是技術入股或者是由英特爾承接台積電在美國的先進封裝訂單都符合公平交易法的事業結合"},{"start":8984.609,"end":9011.294,"text":"這也會超過台積電與英特爾的年度銷售額接超過了公平會所規定的400億新台幣的門檻那代表了他們就必須要跟公平會申報那未來這一起在美國的這個結合案那你"},{"start":9012.95,"end":9023.492,"text":"還有我們的公平會會不會能夠勇敢的進行審查並且獨立的做出相關的判決"},{"start":9025.012,"end":9044.731,"text":"這個案子我們持續都密切在觀察發展那跟委員報告一下就是說我們審查的前提是他們合作的模式屬於我們結合的定義在公民法裡面第四條他有定義什麼叫結合那假設符合了那門檻也達到了不管是營業額很高我想這個營業額都很高所以符合當然就屬於我們可以審查他們就必須要來申報審查"},{"start":9045.932,"end":9068.939,"text":"那審查的過程當中我們就會依照他們合作的模式到底是競爭者還是上下有業者的模式我們會依照公平法既有的審查的一些架構來進行實體的審查那因為我們是獨立機關我們絕對是獨立依法對那對於相關的資料那我們有沒有管到跟美國就是說能夠有相關的資料的這樣子的"},{"start":9070.619,"end":9096.886,"text":"像上一次我們在台灣審查Uber Eats的時候你們就因為資料的拖延其實就已經就是說在收集的方面都沒有辦法及時的就是按照時程內跟委員會報告以及給所有的大眾了解但現在如果這一起案件那的資料相關都在美國"},{"start":9097.466,"end":9109.703,"text":"那我們有沒有辦法能夠及時的取得及時的做出相關合理的這樣子的判決以及給予所有民眾一個公開的資訊呢"},{"start":9111.341,"end":9129.476,"text":"資料取得特別是涉及到外國的公司或跨國公司這個當然一直都是一個問題不過依法我們是可以要求提供資料的所以我們也會積極的要求業者必須要盡快配合我們的時程來提供相關的資料那同樣的邏輯跟規定我們也會適用在台積電的身上我們也會盡量的"},{"start":9130.157,"end":9159.138,"text":"要求他來符合我們審查的事項所以他必須要跟你申報是吧對 只要是審查我們要求他補件原則上他們都要配合所以他要跟你申報而且他要就是說要提供相關的這個資料給你是不是那你也會獨立的做出判決是不是那希望你們可以在就是說法定的期間內獨立的做出判決給予民眾了解好嗎所以我們依法來審查這個案子如果這個案子進來的話"},{"start":9159.898,"end":9161.14,"text":"好好謝謝謝謝謝謝謝義鳳委員那我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":9495.974,"end":9496.585,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":9773.643,"end":9797.262,"text":"好 現在繼續開會那下一位請鄭天才委員質詢主席有請主委來 有請主委"},{"start":9805.288,"end":9832.002,"text":"政務委員長好 陳主委好你在公平會也很多年了今年第五年第五年了 對所以這個非常了解所以應該怎麼樣去積極的上次在這個宴會這個被提名人來做這個詢問的時候我也特別提到"},{"start":9833.473,"end":9837.055,"text":"台灣為以開發國家備詐金額最高的國家這個議題這張是2023年11月天下雜誌的一個報導2023 現在已經2025了這張照片我在這邊也引用了很多次好 那最新的"},{"start":9862.527,"end":9868.992,"text":"詐騙國家危機全國遭詐500億事實上是502億這個是2025 2月17號聯合報的一個新聞從這個報導上就可以發現如果我們從這個近5年詐欺案件案件數跟財損"},{"start":9885.983,"end":9894.046,"text":"來做這樣的一個看的話從2020年一直往上到2024年去年502.5億詐騙詐欺的案件財損逐年增加以去年三大詐騙的手法這個假投資4萬3015件"},{"start":9913.486,"end":9941.451,"text":"遭詐騙的金額372.2億假投資算不算你們公平會的主管的業務目前假投資如果是純粹是要涉及騙錢、詐騙財務的話因為它本身是一個刑事的詐騙行為所以我們會以給檢調單位來進行候選我是說就它是不是屬於公平教育法裡面的"},{"start":9944.223,"end":9964.265,"text":"詐欺 詐訴 或者說公平教育法這裡面有這個事業亦不得為其他族裔影響教育自息之期望或顯示公平之行為是不是屬於這個 假投資是不是屬於這個"},{"start":9966.297,"end":9994.034,"text":"不一定因為25條他必須要足以影響教育秩序那這一條的實行基本上主要還是會從他對市場競爭的影響來角度那我想我知道委員關切的是消費者被詐騙這個消保的關切部分那這個部分所以有可能是其他消保會的或者是其他的部會的業務是也有可能是你們的業務嗎"},{"start":9994.724,"end":10021.87,"text":"要看案件的形態事實所以這個部分其實要去做分析這樣的話才可以去針對現行的法律法規有沒有需要去檢討修正的之處假網路拍賣呢這是有沒有屬於你們的業務還是大部分屬於你們的業務"},{"start":10023.075,"end":10047.862,"text":"假的網路拍賣一樣如果沒有涉及到商品或財貨的交換單純就是一個吸金或是基本上大部分都有那如果涉及到網路拍賣拍賣啊那當然商品啊有些就是拍賣但是其實錢拿了以後東西都沒有給所以如果這種情況的話純粹就是詐騙的行為那會比較是屬於形式上的一個案件的問題任何案件"},{"start":10050.407,"end":10078.302,"text":"都會都有可能涉及到刑事啦既然是假的當然都會涉及到刑事我現在那是最後端的就所謂的試詐嘛怎麼樣去試詐讓人民試詐到底是誰的業務你們也有嘛我們有參與這個行政院的那個分隊這個試詐最重要嘛你試詐的話才能夠避免被詐騙"},{"start":10080.185,"end":10104.95,"text":"所以這個部分是一個非常非常嚴重的非常非常嚴重對台灣人民而言真的是非常這個金額之大然後量之多你看這個假網路拍賣各時百千萬 上萬一百件26.2億所以這金額都很大"},{"start":10107.219,"end":10134.006,"text":"所以日常教育已成詐騙的文傳這個我也在這邊引用了很多次尤其是網路的部分所以這個剛才提到了這個公平教育法公平教育法已經從上一次修正到現在已經七年多了沒有修正從上一次修正到現在七年多了都沒有修正所以以"},{"start":10136.311,"end":10158.508,"text":"以這六年多來講將近已經七年了七年那時空改變那個完全不一樣了完全不一樣所以這個修法是確實有它的必要性我在這邊也提了好幾次上師在"},{"start":10160.434,"end":10172.018,"text":"立法院院會詢問的時候我也特別建議你要做修法這個公平教育法106到6月14號到現在7年多這個裡面預告了是2023年6月6號預告這個建議我以前也是老公務員"},{"start":10189.025,"end":10214.373,"text":"我當過常務副主委我都會親自去拜訪跟這個政務委員說明說明這個他的急迫性、需要性要去說明然後找一點安排何況2023到現在政務委員都換了你們負責的政務委員是哪一位"},{"start":10215.915,"end":10241.209,"text":"呃 劉委員 劉靜卿劉靜卿委員所以新的嗎對那對嘛更要去說明的跟委員報告我們有跟劉委員開過會了就是跟隨這個修法的草案在去年我們開過會那這個有關修法的整個草案目前是在行政院啦我們後續會持續的積極的跟行政院這邊來來聯絡協商還有溝通儘快能夠把這個報告要積極的是是是我以前當副主委的時候"},{"start":10244.043,"end":10271.26,"text":"這個林王毅我都溝通說明過後來都以行政宴會就這樣說出去了是包括之前的吳哲成政務委員工程會的主任委員是為了原住民族土地及海域法我也去說明說明之後他開了三天三夜去審查所以要做積極的去說明而且"},{"start":10272.438,"end":10299.594,"text":"而且因為從2023到6月6號預告到現在2024一年多了可能還有新的不是可能一定嘛應該有新的因為經過去年一整年的一個這麼大的一個差距那個詐騙的金額所以還可以新增"},{"start":10301.044,"end":10320.284,"text":"新增新的要修正 既然還在行政院所以這個部分請主委尤其是我們公民會的同仁要積極的謝謝委員的提點我們會積極跟行政院這邊來持續溝通就我們的版本看有什麼問題我們後續 委員建議我們會納入參考謝謝"},{"start":10323.959,"end":10346.034,"text":"加油 謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝鄭天才委員那下一位請陳昌明委員質詢主席首先有請我們公平會我們的陳志偉好 請陳志偉委員長主委長"},{"start":10353.82,"end":10379.035,"text":"這個問題我希望你好好慎重的回答我今天一大早看到我們執政黨的委員說把他刪了預算刪了預算讓你們之外來行那我首先請教執委你們今年的預算多少總共的編列大概3億多3億多少包含人事費3億6千萬"},{"start":10381.684,"end":10389.37,"text":"那比往年增加了1588萬那你們統算是526萬在我們經濟委員隊裡面很好才3-100萬如果這個加起來才626萬所以你們還增加了926萬那以增加的比例是5%以3-的比例是2.6%"},{"start":10409.025,"end":10435.436,"text":"我本來大美難來了一直在炒這個預算我相信我們所有委員都一清二楚整個立法院的運作到底算了多少他一直在這樣說一直在這樣我不曉得48年來已經順風順水 紅紅紅紅的習慣了在預算增加說有很多事情困難做阿滋味阿滋味阿"},{"start":10436.713,"end":10457.511,"text":"會不會是外來選 好好回答喔你答對你就送主委 答不對就很難送主委還是我替你回答 比較安全我跟委員報告一下啦 就是其實我想說實話 說實話 誠實 充分的答案這個預算的部分 我想凍結的部分對我們業務影響會比較大因為凍結430萬 不要用凍結來講理由幾乎都給你們過 幾乎都沒有凍過"},{"start":10463.459,"end":10477.289,"text":"都跟你們解凍 幾十年是這樣 你也要再去表達他的立場不可以拿黑白為案 拿來亂施打我相信大家做立法局都一清二楚那我講 你剛剛的回答 剛剛的報告很好"},{"start":10481.192,"end":10499,"text":"我想推薦你來當執委你如果講之外來選的時候這樣變成一個詐騙集團如果你講雖然有增加但是通貨膨脹我要艱苦辛苦的去做我全力以赴完成給你當執委要感謝我"},{"start":10500.04,"end":10518.977,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下那個增加的部分其實大部分是人事費我瞭解那業務費的部分的確動錢的部分如果沒辦法即時減薪資金可以調整嘛主要是在文獻啦大家不要說到那裡了大家都知道是怎麼做好另外說你們之外來一層在南部服務中心"},{"start":10520.848,"end":10540.237,"text":"有兩個公平委員會派在那一邊的王子惠你還要做人你剝奪我們南部委員那麼強有力的服務精神像賴瑞榮委員 像我們蔡依委員你去帝國用錢給他做一個那種自來的營你要給這些委員有服務的機會啊"},{"start":10542.233,"end":10554.935,"text":"我也了解公民教育委會去到那裡也是要來動用改觀動用是在跑腿那些都是政治囚擁我夢了三十幾年從行政院的服務中心出來我們看了一窮二尺"},{"start":10556.181,"end":10580.398,"text":"所以這個該刪的就刪嘛不要去得罪了南部那個執政黨的立委每一個人服務的效率那麼高你剝奪他們去為你好好思考我講的問題真正的內涵哪個先真正酬勇我們南部的立委都很強給他們服務一下一個人一個地方都會來找我們的立委服務得供南部服務中心在公平委員會服務"},{"start":10581.699,"end":10607.816,"text":"我實在不敢相信聽我的話你很難回答你不敢得罪他們好不好所以啊你也不要講三點一算那這次公平委員會你又講了現在只剩下五位兩位被刷掉我先講兩位即使你美職委很好他很務實很樸實的公務人員但是比較難溝通那剛剛聽你在講"},{"start":10610.517,"end":10638.491,"text":"為了前年案你有講話不語言這個很好我希望你永遠保持痴心人為公平委員是獨立的單位這個要做起來在美國是很大的單位是反脫勒斯的單位大家碰到你們就怕了但是裡面有一個深層政府拍在這邊的一個委員高通案也是他高通案從應該要賠償他改為和解"},{"start":10640.32,"end":10656.451,"text":"碰到美國我們都沒有膝蓋了我們是跪著講什麼都好包括現在的台積電過去那邊也好還有前年的合併案只為不講話大家以為冒險你講話所以你能沉到仙山"},{"start":10657.574,"end":10675.223,"text":"那公平委員會一定要保持你很公智之心很公平之心來替台灣的民眾來做服務我看你長相應該能做得到講該講的話做你該做的事情你有沒有信心還是到時候為了官位都要搖來搖去擺來擺去了"},{"start":10679.335,"end":10692.876,"text":"謝謝委員的鼓勵跟提醒我向來的初衷就是公平會就是獨立機關公平會執法的標準就是公平交易法還有相關的政策但是怎麼有一些奇怪別人講話還好你有講話留下來我就欣賞這一點"},{"start":10694.198,"end":10708.865,"text":"不要說把台灣的利益全部犧牲掉沒有人說一個賠償案轉歇蓋不去改為投資案對台灣有多幫忙你看美國他要的就是你全部的我們是講好聽的話對台灣你曉得他們的金幣賣得多高什麼樣台灣有沒有比較便宜沒有現在逼著"},{"start":10719.83,"end":10733.294,"text":"那個台積電這樣免稅台灣的電子業在台灣做的有沒有免關稅你把本都整個移到外面核心的機師都移到外面我看這個富國純三也沒有什麼將來學會了"},{"start":10736.533,"end":10761.435,"text":"人家說台海一戰中美國擁有世界晶片最偉大的力量澳門算得好幾,辛辛苦苦台灣人幾十人的心血,這樣研發出來的東西讓人語氣有趣啊!起碼你也給我洗一洗,我再給你弄一弄講一些調教,沒有?有條件,乖乖的"},{"start":10762.681,"end":10789.066,"text":"奉送給人家那這裡面當然剛剛有很多委員談到英帖的事情這國際的結合要不要經過你們這一關如果符合結合定義也超過平台結合定義做這個案你會不會像高通這樣的案件一樣啊你果然是我的阿公啊我什麼都好我們還是以個案的事實我們說將來個案的事實來做一個審查我看你沒有那種氣魄擔當啊"},{"start":10791.305,"end":10794.489,"text":"我講真的,你不會為了台灣的利益啊此外你準備不要做了這種你看到所有世界上美國講一句話"},{"start":10808.669,"end":10821.83,"text":"我執行到這個地方本來只需要給我多一點時間因為我講了一些對執政黨比較有所檢討的事情我不多講好好做保持初心"},{"start":10823.011,"end":10847.85,"text":"還有壟斷物價 你曉得 物價是隨時在跳動的現在通膨在這個國際貿易戰中美的各種戰爭邊緣政治是我們要特別注意的問題不是把臺灣的農民壓得死死的就掉下去萬一下颱風發大雨 缺貨是自然的給他漲一下賺一點又有什麼關係為什麼要叫農民受苦 這個觀念要改好不好是 謝謝 謝偉"},{"start":10851.38,"end":10857.108,"text":"好謝謝陳超明委員來我們下一位請賴瑞榮委員質詢好謝主席請陳代理主委請陳代理主委"},{"start":10876.786,"end":10882.235,"text":"我首先請教一下公民會成立30年來有出現過主委嫌缺的狀況嗎"},{"start":10884.297,"end":10907.123,"text":"過去曾經有過主委提前離職提前離職所以我曾經副主委短暫代理過短暫代理但沒有像這樣子整個懸缺的不是那個不是從一開始就懸缺這是第一次這是第一次啦齁那當時沒有通過的原因其實當時看起來是包括幾位藍白的批評的是因為當時受原來被提名的主委被提名李美"},{"start":10907.523,"end":10928.73,"text":"他沒有制止洪才龍的一個發言然後沒有制止此事所以導致他也被那個不是他自己出問題是他當主席或什麼沒有制止那這個陳代主委那你現在當主席了如果有委員這是合議制的委員如果要發言的話你要不要制止未來類似像這樣狀況你要不要制止"},{"start":10929.409,"end":10954.933,"text":"我想委員知道在委員會議裡面每個委員獨立行職職權那當然也包含主委副主委所以我們當然有自己的看法所以假設我就如同在之前這個案子如果我覺得這個是不對的或是不妥當的我會發言但是最後的決議還是要委員多數的公司的多數決來決定那我也會尊重委員多數的一個意見所以你不會去制止其他委員的發言嗎他有發言的權利我會提醒"},{"start":10955.313,"end":10972.723,"text":"就如同在這個案子裡面我會提醒說這個可能有一些跟法律有一點出入的地方那當然最後委員因為不同委員有不同的評估也許他們不認為有那這個我都尊重每個委員一樣大啦主委副主委也是那個但每個委員會就是合一致嘛"},{"start":10973.443,"end":11001.164,"text":"當然尊重委員的發言的權益 當然會提醒他注意但是沒有權力 竹委就一定制止誰一定不能發言嘛 對不對那因為這樣的理由就把一個竹委給封殺掉我認為這個太過分啦就是說竹委沒有這樣的權力完全制止一個委員完全不能發言如果不能發言的話 那還叫委員會制嗎就是失去委員會制所以將來竹委你會遇到這樣的問題所以我認為其實用這樣的理由來封殺李美竹委我認為其實是不公平的"},{"start":11002.256,"end":11028.942,"text":"因為這是立委的權限啦所以我不太適合發表任何的看法但我只是認為在委員會裡面每一個委員都獨立行使職權所以將來因為你現在代理主委嘛你會主持會議的其他委員如果有意見表達的時候我一定讓他們暢所欲言你會讓暢所欲言每個委員的權利是一樣的但是你會提醒他們嘛對不對那最後的結果是合議制嘛合議來做決定的嘛我覺得這樣子國家制度要這樣建立才會走得長久啦然後沒提醒所有的"},{"start":11029.602,"end":11047.921,"text":"提醒所有的立委同事們在處理人事案不應該用這樣的方式來做否決你可以用任何原因去否決他但是用這樣的理由否決他這是亂了國家的制度也亂了一個委員會公平委員會的該有的一個制度我認為這個是不對的我認為這是不對任何人都可能遭遇這個狀況都不應該用這樣的理由去否決他"},{"start":11048.919,"end":11059.052,"text":"好我第一要講這個第二個是我想要問一下這一次的公民會很多的業務費包括他被刪了526萬被凍結了30%1276萬我問一下主委然後代理主委這個凍結會不會影響到業務的進行"},{"start":11067.622,"end":11088.869,"text":"我想應該就是已經影響了就是在調查上比如說同仁出去不管是交通費還有時數這些其實我們都必須要配合因為你的預算凍結你永遠不知道什麼時候解凍嘛對不對你不知道這個位置能不能解凍還是下個月才解凍那如果等到了下個月才解凍的話那你這個位置的錢當然要很省著用了嘛所以你當然不敢操之的用你應該"},{"start":11090.689,"end":11115.815,"text":"大家都已經是做最壞的打算可能這個凍結最後是不解凍的一定是做最壞的打算思考因為你沒有把握立法院一定聽你們的立法院怎麼可能聽你們的說一定解凍你沒有把握所以你必然尊潔使用所以這必然會影響到就像前面大家所講到的又要公平會全力來做事又要把你的預算整個凍結成這樣子那如果我問一下現在已經實質影響到了對不對"},{"start":11117.375,"end":11134.028,"text":"就是在業務單位再派同仁出去調查案子這個過程當中我們就必須要重新再調整因為不管是時速交通等等所以這就是影響了嘛對不對對就是會產生影響那如果這個會期沒辦法解凍的話拖到下個月9月之後才做解凍的話會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":11135.134,"end":11164.689,"text":"我們當然就是在既有人力盡可能去調配啦但是就是那會不會影響到你們的相關的業務的進行跟調查的各方面的會不會影響到我是比較擔心那個調查還有案件決策的品質就是說如果說調查的人員少然後沒有充分的就是一方面調查的人員能夠派出去的少嘛二方面你要邀請來的可能也會被影響那你這樣你的品質就會受到影響甚至很多案件你可能只能就你既有人力去做一些調查就是就"},{"start":11165.249,"end":11188.695,"text":"瑕疵就會變多啦有可能有這樣的可能啦對所以我認為這個都這個都是應該要盡速的我覺得動這麼多30%動的其實我坦白講我覺得動的太多啦而且恐怕這接下來能解到的方式就是一方面行政院有行政處理方式一方面我可能也要請立法院要盡速來做討論如果不解凍的話形同讓公聘會的功能會失去了一部分的這個功能的運作"},{"start":11189.615,"end":11209.028,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝再來我想請教一下現在今天大家也都談到台積電跟英特爾這樣的一個關係我先問一下台積電怎麼樣的狀況下因為它如果假如它併購或者是它的這個英特爾的這個晶圓代工部門的話那什麼樣的狀況下會進到公平會來做審查"},{"start":11210.109,"end":11225.794,"text":"第一個就是我們要觀察他的合作模式如果台積電跟這些美國企業合作模式屬於我們的結合我們公平法的結合定義那以目前台積電的市佔利益那個都很高所以他可能就必須要來跟公平會來申請結合審查再講得更清楚結合是怎麼樣的"},{"start":11227.761,"end":11255.603,"text":"結合是什麼樣的狀況第十條總共列了五種情形就是譬如說當然收購股權這是一個類型那合資也算合資在柏油的情況下收購主要的資產這個都可能構成結合所以這個都會結合那如果進到結合的話那進到結合就一定要進到公平用來做審查進到結合接下來看的是市佔率跟營業額那因為台積電它的市佔率跟營業額應該都超過啊都超過所以如果它有剛剛講到的併購或者是合資的話那就要進到公平用來做審查嘛"},{"start":11256.624,"end":11271.607,"text":"好 那公民會會怎麼來審查這件事情一旦進到公民會審查我們當然就會依照這個他們合作的類型是屬於水平競爭者的合作還是有涉及到垂直還是多角化我們有不同的審查的結構會有一些不同的因素跟證據會去收集跟分析啦"},{"start":11272.108,"end":11293.898,"text":"那些架構都已經在了所以我們有準備了所以公平會員已經做了準備了一旦如果有這樣的狀況發生公平會會善盡你們的職責來做這樣的一個審查好那接下來我想講一些時間有限現在很多的傳銷它是用虛擬的貨幣來進行的公平會對這個部分會去加重查很多甚至於涉及到詐騙傳銷這個部分公平會能夠加強來做審查"},{"start":11294.738,"end":11320.801,"text":"因為委員投影片上所提的這個拍 這個我們有去了解這個是手機上的一個虛擬貨幣挖礦的一個軟體那因為虛擬貨幣本身現在不是法定的貨幣所以它是違法的 這個部分不會在我們的傳銷所以不會到你們的傳銷 直接違法就對了對對 刑法 直接刑法直接處理但如果你沒有掌握到直接就送去給法務部如果有這樣的情況我們可能如果有查到 因為你們相關查緝有查到就直接該送就送好嗎"},{"start":11321.121,"end":11343.428,"text":"如果是屬於這種刑事違法就是依送檢調這部分刑事那再來今天剛剛大概提到一番賞的部分現在也有很多啦這種的一番賞的這個實體的來抽的這個很多店家詐騙甚至作弊平傳的部分這個部分公平會不會做處理嗎?他也涉及到廣告不實的問題啊對 事實上我們處理過之前的唐奇科的那個案子"},{"start":11344.068,"end":11368.877,"text":"那雖然最後是沒有罰款但是基本上我們是認定他是違法的所以這種一番賞的行為如果他本身是用廣告的方式來呈現那誤導消費者他是有可能在我們的我還是希望公平化還是要持續的去做查查唯有你不斷的查查之後他們才有壓力去防止這樣的行為的發生好不好這個其實也涉及到廣告不實的啊你明明說裡面有但是事實上最後是沒有的嘛事實上就是廣告不實嘛所以我希望這一塊公平化還是要長"},{"start":11369.497,"end":11398.071,"text":"最後一個啦 現在很多的網紅業配包括團購都是宣傳不實這個部分我看到公平會已經有開罰了一件了未來會不會持續的加強來查處跟開罰我們當然既然已經有一個潛力在那邊我們持續會觀察這類型的手段現在網路的時代越多這種網紅業配包括團購廣告不實會越來越多啦唯有公平會善盡你們的職責的時候才能夠減少受騙 減少消費者的受害好不好 請諸位要持續加強查查是 謝謝委員好 謝謝 辛苦了 謝謝"},{"start":11400.708,"end":11423.077,"text":"好謝謝賴瑞榮委員那下一位請蘇巧慧委員蘇巧慧委員蘇巧慧委員不在那我們是不是麻煩張家俊委員代理我們請蔡易餘委員"},{"start":11430.613,"end":11450.458,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請陳代理主委請代理主委蔡榮聰主委好那我早上基本上每一位委員在質詢的時候我就在聽"},{"start":11451.892,"end":11472.289,"text":"那事實上我剛剛有聽到前兩位委員陳超明委員他在質詢的最後他講了有講到我心坎裡去就是說基本上公平會穩定物價是你們的一個工作所以我們要避免聯合操弄然後去干擾物價但是呢你們也要"},{"start":11474.36,"end":11500.558,"text":"避免有人去哄抬物價然後或者是說去打壓所謂農民的一個收入這件事都是你們要去做的嘛對不對就物價的聯合當然是跨部會之間的事情那本會有本會的執掌主要是這個聯合哄抬價格聯合囤積啊對不起聯合固定這個市場就有聯合行為嘛或者是有囤積嘛這樣的事情就是你們公平會要管聯合行為的部分好"},{"start":11501.078,"end":11520.443,"text":"所以重點就來了剛剛就講了說事實上以農民來說他的收入基本上是一個很不穩定的收入尤其遇到災害的時候他的災害的時候數量減少數量減少價格自然會高起來所以這個是基本上人家講的過去一句話叫做古建商農這個成語事實上就是有它的一個道理我們看到了說現在說香蕉的價錢因為去年"},{"start":11530.065,"end":11553.905,"text":"鳳梯尤其有一個叫做納陀河颱風這個鳳梯遭到殖民不得了影響的範圍主要大家的金錢全部都掃掉了掃掉了的結果是怎樣當然現在沒有香蕉沒有數量沒有數量市場機制無量介紹的企業所以現在介紹比較高但是我們卻看到了國民黨的首席書記長竟然說這個現在的香蕉價格比較高"},{"start":11558.909,"end":11562.874,"text":"有人問他說這個是遇到詐騙嗎他的臉書就這樣講說這樣是詐騙我想要請教我們主委針對現在江郊的狀況有特定的供應商來進行聯合壟斷嗎"},{"start":11575.43,"end":11594.16,"text":"根據目前調查 現在目前是沒有聯合行為的問題 那有突擊的狀況嗎目前我們的了解也沒有 主要是颱風的因素導致這個供應量大幅減少 所以你們掌握就是數量減少 數量減少自然它的市場機制 那我們也看到現在很多交農都跳出來說 因為"},{"start":11595.761,"end":11610.911,"text":"等於收容就等於他們現在賺到的他們要賺錢所以大概下一批要到明年今年度的夏天新的香蕉出來可能價格才會趨於穩定我覺得這種市場機制我們要去尊重而且農民在香蕉介紹賣的時候"},{"start":11613.393,"end":11624.871,"text":"香蕉價格差的時候有人要跳出來協助他們嗎?也沒辦法也要當市場機制把價格再拉回來所以這個有好多的一個狀況我們真的很不希望說一塊就讓農民價格比較好"},{"start":11628.936,"end":11633.358,"text":"就記得有人要出來打壓打壓這些香蕉農這個我們不希望看到所以你們在執行你們公民交易在執行這個聯合壟斷的時候基本上你們也要去注意到怎樣的話物價的一個平穩但是農民的收入不能被傷害這樣好不好"},{"start":11646.769,"end":11651.214,"text":"所以我們會持續關注這個問題好那接下來事實上也是剛剛很多委員都有在問就是台積電現在他可能會跟其他的企業包括英特爾包括輝達他們可能要去合資然後會去吃下英特爾的一個部分的一個廠房"},{"start":11669.98,"end":11679.251,"text":"那我想請教我們副主委像台積電這一種公司這麼強已經強到它已經引領全世界"},{"start":11680.812,"end":11700.44,"text":"他的先進製程達到先進封裝差不多全世界要對他走因為全世界要對他走所有的三頁幾乎都是以台積電馬所是瞻我想請教副主委我們過去公平會有遇過台灣曾經有這樣的企業可以達到像台積電這樣的一個巔峰嗎"},{"start":11704.085,"end":11722.062,"text":"我覺得我個人的印象所及是沒有像台積電所以這是第一次嘛第一次台灣有這樣的企業達到你看引領整個世界所以我要跟副主委講的是說事實上從你剛剛說的如果台積電要有這樣的一個這個叫做合併"},{"start":11722.922,"end":11750.623,"text":"合併的一個行為的話你們會有你們的審查但是你們要審查的時候你們要注意喔我為大家提醒的就是說你們除了要考慮的是過去都說聯合行為或者合併的行為考慮的是台灣的市場我覺得現在不能這樣想你要考慮的是國際市場以及台積電在整個國際佈局的時候怎樣對它的佈局是可以讓這一個企業更加壯大"},{"start":11751.764,"end":11774.797,"text":"跟委員報告我們審查這基本上都會是我們考慮的因素那特別是在科技業啦那個市場通常在一些案子當中我們會把它擴到全球的角度來看對但是第一個是全球的角度嘛第二個就是說你要知道因為台積電它就是這個技術它技術無法被取代既然它無法被取代的情況之下它跟你們傳統在說啊我多少是戰略是獨佔寡佔"},{"start":11776.178,"end":11796.084,"text":"我覺得這已經超越了所謂獨佔寡占因為他現在就是要跨級全世界而且對我們台灣是一個最具有攻擊性的一個企業像這種企業公平會在審查的時候必須要有更多元的一個考量我想委員現在提到的就是在科技業裡面我們都必須要更進一步去了解一下科技業創新的動能"},{"start":11796.804,"end":11810.002,"text":"跟結合之間的關係所以這部分我們會審慎去了解所以這一個我覺得很重要所以社會部隊你們要多用心在這一塊最後我再問一個就是說關於現在歐盟"},{"start":11812.213,"end":11827.476,"text":"要推出的這個所謂數位市場法那這個數位市場法當然是針對現在的一個數位科技那數位科技因為掌握在少數的幾家跨國性的大型企業比方說像Meta 像Google 像Line"},{"start":11828.677,"end":11847.782,"text":"像這樣他們都擁有壓倒性大家使用的一個習慣那因為這樣的一個使用習慣就變成了這些平台他們可能在一些廣告的行為或者是一些他們在使用在投射用大數據然後來投放廣告或者是會有詐騙的一個狀況"},{"start":11849.542,"end":11865.516,"text":"基本上歐盟有注意到這些狀況那我們台灣未來要怎麼去因應這些企業然後他們的一些不作為我覺得應該說不作為去影響到人民的生活"},{"start":11866.523,"end":11885.776,"text":"我們在2022年的時候有發表了社會政策白皮書那白皮書裡面其實有把本會對於數位平台的執法立場有蠻詳細的說明那基本上目前我們還是會依照那個白皮書的立場就簡單來講就是說我們會優化我們本身在數位平台執法的能量我們會提升同仁對數位平台的了解那另外就是說其實大部分"},{"start":11886.756,"end":11914.5,"text":"數位平台的一件競爭的問題在目前公平法我們過去的分析架構底下其實我們都可以處理我們要的是讓大同仁還有執法的同仁能夠多一點對數位的了解所以目前我想除了對數位的了解之外以及他們企業跟企業之間的競爭是否公平之外我覺得最主要就是說講白了啦現在的詐騙集團就是都在用這些數位工具來變成他們行使他們詐騙的武器"},{"start":11915.181,"end":11918.134,"text":"那這一些平台最主要就是不作為"},{"start":11919.642,"end":11947.354,"text":"不作為 他一直放任著有人一直在那邊投放一些奇奇怪怪的訊息比方說這個投資理財啊然後請他們去加入LINE 加入LINE後再去告訴他們說我要投資哪些股票現在新聞層出不窮啊都是這種狀況 結果看起來問題就來自於這一些平台明明有人大量在投放這樣的一些一些錯假訊息也好一些屬於詐騙的一個訊息也好不會受到處罰"},{"start":11949.417,"end":11975.592,"text":"因為這些詐騙的行為基本上本身有高度的刑事不法的特色因為我剛剛有聽到說你們涉及到刑事司法你們就拉法務部處理那我現在要問一件事情如果已經判刑確定整個司法程序走完確定這個案件你就是利用我不要講任何一個平台哪一個平台來做你詐騙的手段有判決確定的案例是不是要針對這些平台開法而且一案一法"},{"start":11976.82,"end":12002.85,"text":"因為我們在法律上就是刑事優先原則當然啦 我說刑事走完啦我指的是刑事判決確定了走回到了頭 我們公平會已經判決確定了 換我要出手了你這些平台 你們不作為已經讓於這一些犯罪集團把你們當作犯罪工具因為就我了解 刑事法法的要求是刑事如果制裁以後原則上不能夠再有其他的刑法的處罰"},{"start":12004.537,"end":12030.952,"text":"行政法那不一樣喔不一樣喔刑事法是罰犯罪者就是詐騙人我現在指的是你對於平台的不作為所以這是兩件事好不好再思考一下針對已經判決確定的案件公平會應該有所作為這樣才能讓這些平台去正視說為什麼詐騙集團都要用他們的網路上的優勢來投放這一些詐騙訊息"},{"start":12053.117,"end":12061.242,"text":"我們下一位請盧明才委員 盧明才委員不在王美惠委員 王美惠委員 王美惠委員不在請翁曉琳委員質詢"},{"start":12074.74,"end":12099.515,"text":"謝謝趙偉 首先請陳主委好 請主委委員早陳主委好我想您大概知道我們在這個會期立法院有一個很重要的法案將要推動就是媒體溢價法"},{"start":12100.578,"end":12127.927,"text":"您知道我們這個會期的重要的法案嗎是我知道 我了解您對於媒體溢價法的看法是如何這個議題其實在幾年前就開始我們持續有在關注跟研析是 所以從公平會的角度呢委員如果了解公平會的角度的話我們原則上我們是鼓勵協商鼓勵平台業者跟媒體業者來協商那協商的過程當中如果遇到平台業者有刻意的杯葛"},{"start":12128.607,"end":12150.937,"text":"那我們會提供競爭法上的一個分析跟協助那當然如果協商的過程當中有涉及到數位平台業者有涉及到公平法一些不法的行為我們本來公平法就可以處理您認為說從我們現在國家的國力來講我們有這個條件跟美國來協商嗎跟美國或者這些重大重要的"},{"start":12152.737,"end":12166.008,"text":"社群平台或是在網路上面的這些影音平台我們有這個能力可以跟他們去進行協商嗎進行合理的協商我想公平會我覺得我不太適合去說談有沒有這個能力但是我們會確保那個協商的管道的存在事實上本席還蠻質疑公平會的角色你們有沒有做過就是在台灣目前的"},{"start":12182.114,"end":12192.057,"text":"社群網路平台的這個市佔比例各個不同的這個網路社群平台包括影音平台那現在在台灣的前三名是哪幾個如果以影音平台來講的話是我們前三名的話一個是Facebook然後您說的是如果是影音平台再過來可能就是"},{"start":12204.639,"end":12228.073,"text":"IG跟LINE這樣子這是社群平台如果是影音平台呢影音平台的話就是YouTube是第一的那這是其他的都是比較弱比較弱的好我們知道其實其他國家歐盟美國那麼等等這些國家他們對於像是臉書FBGoogle"},{"start":12231.385,"end":12235.708,"text":"YT等等他們都認為有壟斷市場的問題所以像近期歐盟就重罰了FB特別在分類廣告的部分重罰了他274億"},{"start":12248.616,"end":12277.339,"text":"那么Google其实在之前也曾经被美国的司法部招判就是说他滥用市场的地位有垄断之前然后所以要求他拆分那俄罗斯他在去年也是对这个YTGoogle旗下的这个YT服务认为说还有滥用市场主导的地位也予以处罚请问龚平慧在这些议题上面你们的角色是什么你们的看法是什么"},{"start":12278.207,"end":12302.093,"text":"委員剛剛提到幾個案例有些我們處理過譬如說Google要求預載在電腦平台裡面預載一些他們的軟體那我們經過深入的調查跟研析雖然最後調查的結果跟國外不見得一致但是那個過程我們的確有對數位平台市場做了深入的了解那另外一個問題就是跟委員回答一下就是說數位平台當然都很大而且很可能都已經達到獨佔但是從公平法的執法我們看的是行為"},{"start":12302.853,"end":12317.643,"text":"就是說我們調查的重點會是在於說你有沒有去把這個市場力量轉換為你濫用把用什麼行為來排除所以你們認為到現在為止臉書跟Google在我們台灣沒有濫用它的市場沒有因為它的這個市場地位"},{"start":12318.976,"end":12343.95,"text":"有濫用市場地位有一些不法的我們看到國外的判決我們看到國外的處分我們都會去掌握然後我們會把這樣的東西轉換成國內我們事實上做過市場調查我們去問業者說像國外發生這些行為在台灣有沒有存在那事實上我們收回來的問卷基本上其實大部分都說這個在台灣還不是一個問題我想要講的就是這個google啊臉書"},{"start":12345.956,"end":12361.157,"text":"YT然後乃至於應該這樣分啦就社群平台跟影音平台其實在台灣哪一個業者他市場力量大這眾所皆知而且我相信你們的報告很清楚YT一定是在整個的影音平台的"},{"start":12362.198,"end":12390.13,"text":"這個比例是最高的那其次也許才談到什麼TikTok或是小紅書啦等等之類那麼可是呢我在這些年我沒有看到公平會有很積極的作為當其他國家陸陸續續都判斷都是認定這些業者在他們的國家的市場上已經有這個壟斷或獨佔的這樣的一個情況可是呢我們卻沒有積極的要求"},{"start":12391.71,"end":12412.181,"text":"或是对于民众的一些表达的一些不满的意见来进行处理我希望公平会是不是可以在两个礼拜之内可以把你们做的言行报告提供给本席一份然后把台湾的现行的所有的网络社群平台里面各个业者的市占比"},{"start":12413.141,"end":12427.909,"text":"還有就是影音平台我覺得就兩個區分一個網路社群平台包含LINE等等然後另外一個就是影音平台在現在台灣的市占比是多少然後以及你們對於他們有沒有這個已經構成了公平法裡面這個有主導市場的這樣的一個地位請你們提分也許報告給本席參考是沒問題好謝謝"},{"start":12441.834,"end":12469.423,"text":"好謝謝王小林委員那下一位請何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在請林思明委員林思明委員林思明委員不在好請陳培宇委員發言好謝謝主席那我們弄一下投影片有請主委謝謝"},{"start":12480.129,"end":12495.355,"text":"主委吳安辛苦了有一個時事題但是其實也是您的主管業務棒球最近很夯我想時間有限我們就不再多說而這個夯其實就帶動了周邊商品的商機我想您一定可以理解我們來看下一張"},{"start":12496.175,"end":12517.609,"text":"在這一次WBC資格賽的商品販售的部分呢引發了很多的討論發生了什麼事情呢今年的2月4號負責這一次WBC資格賽商品販售的單位發了這一張預購宣傳把所有球員跟教練我再次強調所有球員跟教練都列入了商品清單大家很開心好下一張"},{"start":12518.61,"end":12545.971,"text":"結果呢2月4號剛剛發了那個預購宣傳單到了2月5號中職聯盟的副秘書長到了2月6號的球員工會都質疑這個授權有問題他們質疑這個廠商應該沒有取得合法的授權好到下一張結果這個廠商的賬號自己竟然很囂張的說好喔這個廠商說的他說好喔我們還沒有因為未被授權而告過希望這不會是第一次救命"},{"start":12547.557,"end":12557.119,"text":"主委你的嘴巴都皺起來了對不對你一定想說你看了什麼對不對這中間有沒有可能涉及廣告不實的問題我覺得這會是公評會的業務對不對好 我們來往下看"},{"start":12559.053,"end":12586.223,"text":"到底WBC資格賽商品販售有沒有可能涉及廣告不實我繼續跟主委您報告到了2月19號這家業者又出了另外一個全新的公告剛時間點是2月4號2月5號2月6號到2月19日中間一定發生一些事情這個業者就說因為參賽名單調整有部分人員的商品沒有辦法販售但是我們發現這個調整沒有辦法販售的部分這裡面還包含了教練團"},{"start":12587.443,"end":12602.424,"text":"而教練團理應說不會受到參賽名單的調整而受到影響好 下一張所以當時就有一個球評還發表了相關的言論他評價這個事件那他問說你們是不是沒有取得授權就掀開預購"},{"start":12603.826,"end":12620.392,"text":"那我想這也是這一次所有球迷而且所有熱情支持台灣隊的球迷所擔心的事情那目前為止我們非常清楚球迷並沒有公權力去查證這件事情但是我相信公平會應該有相關的公權力對於我剛剛說的廣告不實的部分做一些調查我這邊下一張"},{"start":12622.93,"end":12641.973,"text":"好我們查了廣告不實的相關樣態有這麼多表第五個項目五表示或表證委稱他人技術合作或授權者我這樣的解讀是不是正確主委委員所講的是對的因為如果你沒有得到合法產生的授權你對外廣告卻說這是要銷售你取得授權這當然就是屬於不實廣告一個類型"},{"start":12642.654,"end":12663.062,"text":"就委員提到這個案子我們事後會去調查事後好太好了下一張很開心這麼快速聽到主委的認同所以我這邊要求很清楚就是第一個我想請公平會就這個案子進行查查釐清是否涉及廣告不實的問題我這邊的期限本來是約是壓兩個月內提供相關調查進度跟延伤狀況不知道時間上是不是允許兩個月內我們會盡快"},{"start":12667.509,"end":12693.481,"text":"是不是因為我們需要時間因為相關的當事人還有一些事件是那主委您覺得就工作時間上我們我們彼此抓一個時間好不好四個月可以好四個月沒問題好四個月我們不是我們希望不是看到只是延益啟動而是已經有一些行為了好嗎好有些動作好那接下來我要談建議運動文化賽事周邊商品多有獨家授權的特性而這其中可能衍生實際上會取得授權卻公開販售的樣態"},{"start":12696.522,"end":12708.821,"text":"那考量相關商品販售的單一壟斷特質我要拜託你們跟教育部跟文化部進行相關爭議的因應討論因為這件事情絕對不會只是個案後續一定還會有其他的事情這個部分公平會有辦法承擔相關的跨部會的溝通嗎"},{"start":12713.39,"end":12737.156,"text":"委員是說要跟教育部文化部來進行請他們根據一些實際現場的案例跟你們進行相關的討論後續可能再衍生其他的問題這個可以啊這個我們可以來召集這些部會來進行那一樣壓四個月嗎一樣四個月好謝謝主委那我們這兩個事情就這麼往下發展好不好我們辦公室也會積極來關心拜託主委了謝謝好謝謝主席謝謝主委謝謝"},{"start":12743.128,"end":12771.409,"text":"謝謝裴育委員下一位請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在請馬文君委員馬文君委員馬文君委員不在請葉元之葉元之委員葉元之委員不在請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員徐欣穎委員不在請林儲英委員林儲英委員林儲英委員不在好根據發言委員除不在場者之外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束書面質詢和未及答覆部分"},{"start":12772.59,"end":12780.353,"text":"請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會好 本日議程處理完畢 謝謝大家 現在上會"}]}},{"id":"16514","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16514","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea6d254b92567b84ceb3359f5e1b817e707a524d1b3d409a1adc9100e27b0c805a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-13T08:32:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T13:13:00+08:00","duration":16846,"影片長度":"04:40:46","委員發言時間":"08:32:14 - 13:13:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1922.5659687500001,"end":1925.7215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1926.5147187500002,"end":1929.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":1930.0247187500001,"end":1934.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1935.1715937500003,"end":1949.3803437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1949.7684687500002,"end":1967.8922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1968.3647187500003,"end":1972.6847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1972.9547187500002,"end":1982.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1982.86034375,"end":1997.1197187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1997.5078437500001,"end":2003.2115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2003.5659687500001,"end":2010.1978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2011.5140937500003,"end":2015.9015937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2017.45409375,"end":2019.3272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2020.40721875,"end":2024.4403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2026.4147187500002,"end":2047.6603437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2049.22971875,"end":2054.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2058.17346875,"end":2059.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2062.91534375,"end":2065.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2068.53471875,"end":2070.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2072.4665937500004,"end":2074.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2076.48284375,"end":2078.5584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2081.9334687500004,"end":2083.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2086.7428437500002,"end":2088.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2091.60284375,"end":2093.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2096.9522187500006,"end":2099.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2102.28471875,"end":2105.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2107.8365937500002,"end":2109.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2112.27471875,"end":2115.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2119.3622187500005,"end":2123.6990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2127.1415937500005,"end":2127.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2127.15846875,"end":2128.1709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2128.7109687500006,"end":2128.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2128.72784375,"end":2128.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2128.96409375,"end":2128.9978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2130.41534375,"end":2145.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2145.61971875,"end":2146.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2146.98659375,"end":2155.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2156.08221875,"end":2159.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2160.43596875,"end":2160.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2161.1278437500005,"end":2177.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2177.6990937500004,"end":2184.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2185.02284375,"end":2196.2109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2196.64971875,"end":2205.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2206.06596875,"end":2209.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2209.8965937500006,"end":2216.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2217.01784375,"end":2228.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2228.72909375,"end":2239.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2239.93409375,"end":2241.5203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2242.0603437500004,"end":2248.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2248.65846875,"end":2258.2772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2258.4459687500002,"end":2265.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2265.48284375,"end":2268.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2268.5203437500004,"end":2271.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2271.74346875,"end":2274.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2274.6122187500005,"end":2277.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2278.4090937500005,"end":2290.8965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2290.9978437500004,"end":2297.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2297.5622187500003,"end":2316.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2317.20471875,"end":2323.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2323.95471875,"end":2324.4609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2324.54534375,"end":2335.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2336.3915937500005,"end":2341.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2341.23471875,"end":2344.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2344.12034375,"end":2347.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2347.98471875,"end":2348.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2351.73096875,"end":2354.5153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2361.50159375,"end":2361.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2361.5184687500005,"end":2361.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2361.53534375,"end":2361.7547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2361.7547187500004,"end":2363.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2363.34096875,"end":2363.3747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2363.3747187500003,"end":2366.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2366.05784375,"end":2376.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2376.8240937500004,"end":2421.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2421.81284375,"end":2427.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2427.97221875,"end":2428.0059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2428.1747187500005,"end":2428.2253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2428.2253437500003,"end":2428.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2428.27596875,"end":2435.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2435.0428437500004,"end":2435.1609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2435.1609687500004,"end":2435.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2435.97096875,"end":2461.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2461.8065937500005,"end":2465.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2465.33346875,"end":2469.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2469.90659375,"end":2490.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2491.1015937500006,"end":2505.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2505.9178437500004,"end":2535.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2535.5672187500004,"end":2538.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2538.0309687500003,"end":2539.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2540.0897187500004,"end":2544.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2544.9665937500004,"end":2546.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2546.26596875,"end":2546.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2546.6709687500006,"end":2546.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2546.68784375,"end":2546.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2546.70471875,"end":2547.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2547.0253437500005,"end":2553.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2553.85971875,"end":2572.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2572.96221875,"end":2573.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2573.02971875,"end":2573.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2573.9747187500006,"end":2574.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2574.0253437500005,"end":2574.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2574.97034375,"end":2575.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2575.0378437500003,"end":2604.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2604.5184687500005,"end":2610.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2610.6103437500005,"end":2612.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2612.97284375,"end":2613.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2613.0234687500006,"end":2613.2428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2613.2428437500002,"end":2613.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2614.60971875,"end":2620.0772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2620.3640937500004,"end":2643.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2644.32659375,"end":2649.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2657.0840937500006,"end":2659.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2659.76721875,"end":2660.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2666.4665937500004,"end":2718.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2667.64784375,"end":2668.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2718.7115937500002,"end":2727.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2727.13221875,"end":2727.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2727.3347187500003,"end":2736.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2732.5322187500005,"end":2733.3253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2736.66659375,"end":2736.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2737.2740937500002,"end":2738.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2738.99534375,"end":2739.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2741.64471875,"end":2758.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2758.7559687500006,"end":2763.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2758.9247187500005,"end":2758.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2764.0378437500003,"end":2768.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2765.35409375,"end":2765.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2765.6240937500006,"end":2765.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2769.06659375,"end":2769.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2769.69096875,"end":2776.7109687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2771.2772187500004,"end":2772.1715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2772.1715937500003,"end":2772.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2772.2897187500002,"end":2772.3572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2772.3572187500004,"end":2774.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2776.12034375,"end":2777.1328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2776.8797187500004,"end":2784.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2784.4059687500003,"end":2785.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2786.1609687500004,"end":2794.5984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2795.0878437500005,"end":2809.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2810.0222187500003,"end":2811.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2810.4440937500003,"end":2817.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2817.64971875,"end":2829.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2830.1034687500005,"end":2835.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2830.8965937500006,"end":2831.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2832.83721875,"end":2833.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2836.9715937500005,"end":2838.7097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2838.99659375,"end":2839.7559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2840.3465937500005,"end":2844.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2843.62034375,"end":2844.7003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2844.2784687500007,"end":2844.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2844.90284375,"end":2846.3709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2845.5947187500005,"end":2846.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2847.0290937500004,"end":2852.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2852.42909375,"end":2856.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2856.58034375,"end":2857.9303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2857.9303437500002,"end":2858.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2858.6222187500007,"end":2861.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2860.4615937500002,"end":2867.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2867.66721875,"end":2871.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2871.90284375,"end":2918.8659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2919.3553437500004,"end":2919.8953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2919.9122187500006,"end":2922.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2922.94971875,"end":2923.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2923.2703437500004,"end":2923.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2923.84409375,"end":2934.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2933.37846875,"end":2962.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2962.67346875,"end":2974.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2975.56596875,"end":2999.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2999.6803437500002,"end":3009.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3009.0290937500004,"end":3010.9190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3010.1765937500004,"end":3012.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3010.93596875,"end":3010.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3011.5603437500004,"end":3012.3028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3012.3028437500006,"end":3014.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3013.95659375,"end":3036.6365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3036.4509687500004,"end":3056.2959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3055.82346875,"end":3059.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3058.2872187500006,"end":3059.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3059.1647187500002,"end":3060.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3060.0253437500005,"end":3068.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3067.8553437500004,"end":3136.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3084.4940937500005,"end":3084.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3135.97971875,"end":3138.8484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3136.2665937500005,"end":3137.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3138.15659375,"end":3138.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3140.21534375,"end":3146.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3146.3915937500005,"end":3146.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3146.42534375,"end":3151.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3146.7628437500007,"end":3170.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3151.36971875,"end":3151.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3170.3034687500003,"end":3237.7022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3237.8034687500003,"end":3249.1603437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3249.3965937500006,"end":3250.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3252.07971875,"end":3256.0622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3264.8203437500006,"end":3271.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3271.53659375,"end":3272.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3278.9784687500005,"end":3280.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3280.9697187500005,"end":3281.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3281.0372187500006,"end":3288.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3288.6647187500002,"end":3334.0078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3334.0078437500006,"end":3334.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3335.10471875,"end":3335.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3335.1384687500004,"end":3336.1003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3336.7753437500005,"end":3359.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3357.9365937500006,"end":3357.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3357.95346875,"end":3358.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3358.9659687500007,"end":3364.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3364.93971875,"end":3369.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3369.52971875,"end":3371.2340937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3371.7403437500006,"end":3377.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3377.17409375,"end":3381.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3381.3759687500005,"end":3394.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3394.53846875,"end":3411.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3411.5147187500006,"end":3416.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3416.66159375,"end":3417.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3417.6403437500003,"end":3425.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3426.3309687500005,"end":3431.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3432.8447187500005,"end":3434.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3434.49846875,"end":3435.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3435.5615937500006,"end":3465.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3465.8015937500004,"end":3471.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3471.3365937500002,"end":3472.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3472.5515937500004,"end":3479.4197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3479.7740937500002,"end":3487.2497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3487.3847187500005,"end":3492.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3491.9072187500005,"end":3499.7540937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3497.84721875,"end":3528.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3510.4697187500005,"end":3512.3259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3529.3865937500004,"end":3536.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3536.35596875,"end":3539.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3538.2628437500007,"end":3539.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3539.8153437500005,"end":3564.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3565.4147187500002,"end":3577.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3575.35409375,"end":3593.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3592.0772187500006,"end":3598.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3594.50721875,"end":3594.7772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3598.01721875,"end":3598.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3605.23971875,"end":3606.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3606.37034375,"end":3614.9597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3615.1622187500006,"end":3619.4315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3619.81971875,"end":3631.2947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3631.4297187500006,"end":3635.5303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3635.8340937500006,"end":3644.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3644.6934687500006,"end":3651.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3651.9665937500004,"end":3714.8259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3665.1122187500005,"end":3666.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3715.1972187500005,"end":3746.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3746.73659375,"end":3750.6347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3751.0059687500006,"end":3772.5722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3771.99846875,"end":3775.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3774.1415937500005,"end":3801.2428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3779.5078437500006,"end":3781.2965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3801.2428437500002,"end":3802.0528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3802.0528437500006,"end":3802.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3803.0147187500006,"end":3803.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3803.7740937500002,"end":3821.2734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3821.71221875,"end":3825.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3825.7790937500004,"end":3873.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3835.1784687500003,"end":3836.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3836.96721875,"end":3837.7097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3873.85596875,"end":3894.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3894.5447187500004,"end":3895.2872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3895.2872187500006,"end":3895.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3899.5397187500002,"end":3902.8809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3914.2547187500004,"end":3914.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3915.55409375,"end":3916.2459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3921.8484687500004,"end":3929.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3923.4178437500004,"end":3923.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3930.1678437500004,"end":3932.6315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3933.3234687500008,"end":3941.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3941.22096875,"end":3941.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3941.8622187500005,"end":3942.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3942.08159375,"end":3955.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3955.51409375,"end":3956.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3956.42534375,"end":3957.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3957.57284375,"end":3963.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3964.00221875,"end":3966.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3967.1072187500004,"end":3976.7597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3977.5359687500004,"end":3998.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3998.17409375,"end":3998.2247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3998.73096875,"end":3998.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3998.96721875,"end":3999.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4000.77284375,"end":4012.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4012.58534375,"end":4012.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4013.0578437500008,"end":4013.4797187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4013.0915937500004,"end":4023.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4023.97596875,"end":4031.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4031.28284375,"end":4031.4347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4031.4347187500007,"end":4031.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4031.6034687500005,"end":4048.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4036.5309687500003,"end":4036.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4050.4697187500005,"end":4065.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4064.2734687500006,"end":4065.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4065.69096875,"end":4069.6397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4066.1297187500004,"end":4066.6022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4068.7453437500008,"end":4071.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4069.90971875,"end":4074.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4074.41534375,"end":4074.6515937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4074.8203437500006,"end":4076.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4076.6090937500003,"end":4076.9972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4077.0309687500003,"end":4078.2628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4078.5665937500007,"end":4081.5703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4082.4647187500004,"end":4086.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4086.5653437500005,"end":4086.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4086.9197187500004,"end":4090.8347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4089.0459687500006,"end":4089.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4091.7459687500004,"end":4093.3828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4093.8553437500004,"end":4095.7284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4094.4797187500008,"end":4096.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4095.9140937500006,"end":4096.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4096.92659375,"end":4108.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4108.33409375,"end":4110.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4112.282843749999,"end":4112.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4112.991593750001,"end":4113.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4113.5653437500005,"end":4115.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4115.32034375,"end":4120.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4120.51784375,"end":4121.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4120.56846875,"end":4120.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4120.585343750001,"end":4121.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4121.1590937500005,"end":4121.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4121.294093750001,"end":4130.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4121.850968750001,"end":4122.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4122.0028437500005,"end":4122.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4122.458468750001,"end":4122.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4122.6103437500005,"end":4122.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4122.694718750001,"end":4122.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4123.538468750001,"end":4123.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4123.859093749999,"end":4124.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4124.44971875,"end":4124.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4124.466593749999,"end":4124.517218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4130.06909375,"end":4130.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4130.74409375,"end":4133.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4133.342843750001,"end":4133.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4133.950343750001,"end":4134.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4134.794093750001,"end":4134.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4134.827843749999,"end":4140.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4140.464093750001,"end":4155.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4156.259093750001,"end":4163.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4163.39721875,"end":4163.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4165.2197187500005,"end":4178.939093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4178.939093749999,"end":4178.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4178.9559687500005,"end":4178.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4178.97284375,"end":4179.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4180.32284375,"end":4188.220343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4188.827843749999,"end":4193.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4193.08034375,"end":4193.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4193.384093750001,"end":4202.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4202.86784375,"end":4205.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4206.749093750001,"end":4211.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4208.655968749999,"end":4208.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4211.30534375,"end":4212.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4213.3134687500005,"end":4214.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4215.169718749999,"end":4215.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4216.28346875,"end":4229.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4230.171593749999,"end":4230.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4230.1884687500005,"end":4231.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4231.97721875,"end":4233.124718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4231.99409375,"end":4238.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4234.28909375,"end":4234.440968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4239.09846875,"end":4250.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4250.97846875,"end":4251.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4251.14721875,"end":4251.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4251.653468750001,"end":4252.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4252.024718750001,"end":4252.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4252.4803437499995,"end":4252.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4252.51409375,"end":4255.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4255.8553437499995,"end":4260.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4260.05721875,"end":4260.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4260.90096875,"end":4263.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4263.61784375,"end":4272.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4272.76409375,"end":4278.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4278.95721875,"end":4282.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4282.99034375,"end":4285.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4285.50471875,"end":4290.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4290.786593750001,"end":4292.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4292.64284375,"end":4292.659718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4292.659718749999,"end":4292.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4292.77784375,"end":4292.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4292.794718749999,"end":4292.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4292.8622187500005,"end":4307.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4292.87909375,"end":4293.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4309.247843749999,"end":4311.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4311.981593750001,"end":4322.798468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4323.220343749999,"end":4324.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4324.772843750001,"end":4327.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4327.79346875,"end":4348.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4348.6678437499995,"end":4348.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4349.106593750001,"end":4360.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4361.475968750001,"end":4361.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4362.8934687500005,"end":4363.720343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4364.429093750001,"end":4378.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4378.99221875,"end":4379.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4379.8865937499995,"end":4387.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4387.5478437500005,"end":4387.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4387.56471875,"end":4387.581593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4387.581593749999,"end":4387.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4387.69971875,"end":4387.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4387.716593749999,"end":4387.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4387.85159375,"end":4388.003468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4388.003468749999,"end":4389.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4389.083468750001,"end":4389.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4389.25221875,"end":4389.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4389.319718750001,"end":4389.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4389.606593750001,"end":4390.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4390.585343750001,"end":4394.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4394.02784375,"end":4394.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4394.63534375,"end":4395.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4395.4959687499995,"end":4397.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4397.520968750001,"end":4412.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4412.97846875,"end":4413.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4413.14721875,"end":4413.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4413.2822187500005,"end":4413.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4413.29909375,"end":4413.315968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4413.315968749999,"end":4414.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4414.817843750001,"end":4435.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4435.304093750001,"end":4448.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4448.702843749999,"end":4453.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4448.7197187500005,"end":4449.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4454.997218750001,"end":4457.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4465.999718749999,"end":4467.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4468.17659375,"end":4469.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4476.310343749999,"end":4477.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4477.390343749999,"end":4479.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4477.6434687500005,"end":4478.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4478.72346875,"end":4482.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4480.680968750001,"end":4480.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4482.419093750001,"end":4482.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4483.6678437499995,"end":4485.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4485.692843750001,"end":4490.468468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4490.856593750001,"end":4491.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4492.47659375,"end":4494.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4495.19346875,"end":4500.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4501.251593749999,"end":4502.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4504.45784375,"end":4507.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4508.06909375,"end":4509.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4510.060343749999,"end":4511.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4512.186593750001,"end":4514.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4514.39721875,"end":4519.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4519.628468749999,"end":4523.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4523.91471875,"end":4526.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4526.479718750001,"end":4528.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4529.17971875,"end":4531.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4531.7615937499995,"end":4532.892218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4533.39846875,"end":4535.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4535.6259687500005,"end":4537.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4537.70159375,"end":4538.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4539.10221875,"end":4539.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4540.41846875,"end":4541.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4541.86971875,"end":4542.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4543.55721875,"end":4545.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4545.63284375,"end":4548.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4549.5478437500005,"end":4550.796593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4551.57284375,"end":4553.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4553.81721875,"end":4555.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4555.200968749999,"end":4562.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4561.98471875,"end":4567.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4567.70534375,"end":4569.409718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4570.05096875,"end":4578.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4579.12971875,"end":4579.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4580.02409375,"end":4580.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4581.05346875,"end":4582.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4582.70721875,"end":4584.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4585.170968750001,"end":4586.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4587.39846875,"end":4588.579718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4589.288468750001,"end":4591.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4591.78596875,"end":4594.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4594.300343749999,"end":4595.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4596.07221875,"end":4596.780968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4597.354718750001,"end":4602.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4602.34971875,"end":4603.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4604.77971875,"end":4606.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4606.88909375,"end":4614.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4615.37721875,"end":4617.081593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4617.689093749999,"end":4619.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4619.764718750001,"end":4625.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4626.2615937499995,"end":4627.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4627.69596875,"end":4629.923468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4630.00784375,"end":4630.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4631.69534375,"end":4632.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4632.91034375,"end":4634.091593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4634.20971875,"end":4636.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4636.639718750001,"end":4639.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4640.45346875,"end":4642.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4643.45721875,"end":4644.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4645.296593749999,"end":4647.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4647.52409375,"end":4649.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4650.07221875,"end":4651.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4652.18159375,"end":4654.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4654.69596875,"end":4656.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4657.00784375,"end":4657.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4658.40846875,"end":4661.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4662.44159375,"end":4664.939093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4665.68159375,"end":4666.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4666.542218750001,"end":4669.157843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4669.47846875,"end":4671.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4672.22909375,"end":4674.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4674.186593750001,"end":4674.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4674.99659375,"end":4675.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4676.49846875,"end":4677.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4678.92846875,"end":4679.940968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4680.970343749999,"end":4682.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4683.602843750001,"end":4685.003468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4685.69534375,"end":4686.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4686.792218750001,"end":4688.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4688.96909375,"end":4692.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4692.86721875,"end":4694.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4694.385968750001,"end":4695.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4695.887843750001,"end":4696.815968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4697.22096875,"end":4699.347218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4699.532843749999,"end":4702.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4703.009093750001,"end":4704.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4705.169093750001,"end":4707.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4707.85221875,"end":4716.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4715.54721875,"end":4715.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4716.1884687500005,"end":4716.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4721.841593749999,"end":4734.6834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4725.216593749999,"end":4725.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4725.2840937500005,"end":4725.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4725.33471875,"end":4725.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4726.7353437500005,"end":4727.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4732.675343750001,"end":4733.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4733.97471875,"end":4737.501593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4738.37909375,"end":4739.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4740.11721875,"end":4746.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4745.36534375,"end":4747.204718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4747.019093750001,"end":4748.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4747.42409375,"end":4750.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4750.42784375,"end":4752.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4751.54159375,"end":4751.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4752.57096875,"end":4753.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4753.75221875,"end":4773.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4773.3778437500005,"end":4778.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4778.8622187500005,"end":4783.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4783.9247187500005,"end":4787.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4788.29534375,"end":4789.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4789.999718749999,"end":4791.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4791.43409375,"end":4794.842843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4795.12971875,"end":4798.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4798.99409375,"end":4808.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4809.0009687500005,"end":4811.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4809.91221875,"end":4810.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4811.44784375,"end":4813.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4811.78534375,"end":4813.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4813.962218750001,"end":4814.198468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4814.097218750001,"end":4816.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4816.37534375,"end":4819.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4820.340968750001,"end":4826.2303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4826.432843750001,"end":4829.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4830.364718750001,"end":4831.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4831.765343749999,"end":4833.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4834.583468750001,"end":4838.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4838.430968750001,"end":4840.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4840.776593750001,"end":4846.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4844.759093750001,"end":4845.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4846.716593749999,"end":4848.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4848.404093749999,"end":4855.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4851.9647187499995,"end":4852.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4855.8290937500005,"end":4856.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4856.30159375,"end":4856.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4856.31846875,"end":4861.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4857.044093750001,"end":4857.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4861.583468750001,"end":4866.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4866.747218750001,"end":4869.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4869.37971875,"end":4869.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4869.835343750001,"end":4871.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4871.995343750001,"end":4872.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4872.045968750001,"end":4874.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4875.134093750001,"end":4876.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4877.192843750001,"end":4877.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4878.67784375,"end":4882.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4882.677218750001,"end":4885.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4885.2928437499995,"end":4885.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4885.5965937500005,"end":4887.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4886.30534375,"end":4886.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4887.75659375,"end":4891.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4889.25846875,"end":4889.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4892.144093750001,"end":4895.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4895.97471875,"end":4895.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4895.991593750001,"end":4896.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4896.00846875,"end":4899.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4899.24846875,"end":4901.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4900.88534375,"end":4901.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":4901.44221875,"end":4901.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4901.982218749999,"end":4903.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4904.26034375,"end":4905.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4906.31909375,"end":4907.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4908.276593750001,"end":4909.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4910.099093750001,"end":4911.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4911.66846875,"end":4912.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4913.30534375,"end":4914.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4915.36409375,"end":4919.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4920.089093750001,"end":4922.282843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4922.73846875,"end":4925.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4925.92784375,"end":4927.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4927.716593749999,"end":4928.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4929.184718750001,"end":4932.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4932.47534375,"end":4933.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4934.55096875,"end":4939.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4939.64721875,"end":4941.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4941.4022187499995,"end":4942.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4943.17409375,"end":4945.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4945.84034375,"end":4949.468468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4949.755343750001,"end":4950.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4951.4090937500005,"end":4955.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4955.67846875,"end":4960.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4960.23471875,"end":4971.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4971.99659375,"end":4979.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4979.522843750001,"end":5016.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5016.19221875,"end":5019.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5020.259093750001,"end":5044.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5043.884093750001,"end":5048.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5048.710343750001,"end":5069.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5049.081593750001,"end":5050.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5069.58471875,"end":5073.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5072.82471875,"end":5073.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5073.837218750001,"end":5077.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5078.241593750001,"end":5079.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5080.485968749999,"end":5082.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5082.49409375,"end":5084.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5085.16034375,"end":5086.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5086.780343750001,"end":5087.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5088.029093749999,"end":5088.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5088.95721875,"end":5093.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5093.564093749999,"end":5095.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5095.52159375,"end":5097.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5097.9853437500005,"end":5114.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5114.32034375,"end":5115.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5115.58596875,"end":5117.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5117.155343750001,"end":5117.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5118.30284375,"end":5119.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5120.327843749999,"end":5136.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5136.561593750001,"end":5137.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5138.02971875,"end":5145.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5146.163468750001,"end":5149.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5150.010968750001,"end":5151.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5152.154093749999,"end":5155.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5156.22096875,"end":5157.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5157.99284375,"end":5159.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5159.747843749999,"end":5161.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5161.857218749999,"end":5162.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5162.903468750001,"end":5167.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5167.27409375,"end":5175.407843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5175.44159375,"end":5178.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5178.5634687500005,"end":5180.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5180.63909375,"end":5181.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5181.56721875,"end":5182.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5184.638468749999,"end":5185.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5185.2459687499995,"end":5188.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5197.733468750001,"end":5199.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5199.842843750001,"end":5200.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5207.757218750001,"end":5230.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5208.786593750001,"end":5209.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5230.50471875,"end":5286.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5286.63096875,"end":5289.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5290.073468750001,"end":5299.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5299.52346875,"end":5305.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5305.733468750001,"end":5314.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5314.727843750001,"end":5330.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5330.96159375,"end":5358.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5359.024718750001,"end":5362.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5363.007218750001,"end":5424.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5424.38159375,"end":5441.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5441.69534375,"end":5472.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5472.76221875,"end":5490.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5490.71721875,"end":5504.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5503.50846875,"end":5507.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5509.262843750001,"end":5510.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5510.764718750001,"end":5512.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5512.51971875,"end":5527.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5528.1122187500005,"end":5539.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5539.97534375,"end":5543.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5543.620343750001,"end":5610.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5610.512843750001,"end":5655.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5655.16409375,"end":5656.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5656.32846875,"end":5685.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5686.0115937499995,"end":5715.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5691.58034375,"end":5692.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5702.903468750001,"end":5703.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5712.505343750001,"end":5712.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5714.513468749999,"end":5721.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5722.03971875,"end":5722.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5722.83284375,"end":5723.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5723.4403437500005,"end":5723.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5723.811593750001,"end":5723.845343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5726.35971875,"end":5729.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5741.530343750001,"end":5742.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5742.72846875,"end":5743.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5743.97721875,"end":5744.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5752.397843750001,"end":5752.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5753.055968750001,"end":5770.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5770.52159375,"end":5771.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5772.310343749999,"end":5775.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5776.107218749999,"end":5801.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5801.74034375,"end":5803.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5803.41096875,"end":5807.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5807.984093749999,"end":5813.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5821.686593750001,"end":5830.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5830.42784375,"end":5830.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5830.815968750001,"end":5831.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5831.6259687500005,"end":5856.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5856.76971875,"end":5876.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5867.87346875,"end":5868.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5877.1884687500005,"end":5888.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5888.376593750001,"end":5906.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5901.269093750001,"end":5908.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5907.85034375,"end":5910.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5910.06096875,"end":5934.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5935.66034375,"end":5939.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5939.92971875,"end":5942.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5943.62534375,"end":5944.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5944.9247187500005,"end":5945.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5945.329718750001,"end":5950.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5950.4090937500005,"end":5952.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5952.923468750001,"end":5967.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5967.790343750001,"end":5970.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5970.220343750001,"end":5976.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5976.1434687500005,"end":5983.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5984.12534375,"end":5990.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5990.79096875,"end":6002.890343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6001.354718750001,"end":6001.827218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6002.468468749999,"end":6007.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6007.9697187500005,"end":6034.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6034.767218750001,"end":6036.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6037.062218749999,"end":6044.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6044.30159375,"end":6047.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6047.32221875,"end":6052.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6053.093468749999,"end":6059.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6060.85596875,"end":6062.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6062.577218750001,"end":6077.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6077.69721875,"end":6080.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6081.02159375,"end":6081.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6081.05534375,"end":6082.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6082.75971875,"end":6083.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6083.805968750001,"end":6085.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6085.965968750001,"end":6086.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6087.53534375,"end":6103.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6103.38096875,"end":6105.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6106.435343749999,"end":6107.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6107.565968750001,"end":6112.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6112.42596875,"end":6115.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6115.1259687500005,"end":6116.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6118.028468750001,"end":6118.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6118.298468750001,"end":6124.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6124.60971875,"end":6132.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6130.448468750001,"end":6136.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6136.79346875,"end":6157.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6157.718468749999,"end":6170.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6171.28596875,"end":6172.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6173.31096875,"end":6232.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6232.913468750001,"end":6246.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6246.24471875,"end":6258.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6258.732218749999,"end":6318.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6318.554093750001,"end":6333.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6334.062218749999,"end":6344.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6345.43596875,"end":6352.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6352.55721875,"end":6355.729718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6355.965968750001,"end":6360.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6360.43784375,"end":6360.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6361.19721875,"end":6365.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6365.44971875,"end":6368.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6368.45346875,"end":6385.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6386.003468750001,"end":6402.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6398.2040937500005,"end":6400.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6400.026593750001,"end":6400.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6400.2459687499995,"end":6402.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6402.034718750001,"end":6402.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6402.49034375,"end":6403.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6402.94596875,"end":6413.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6403.823468750001,"end":6429.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6424.680968750001,"end":6436.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6434.856593750001,"end":6438.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6437.6747187500005,"end":6449.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6442.399718750001,"end":6442.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6449.40284375,"end":6450.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6450.71909375,"end":6494.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6465.653468750001,"end":6467.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6467.03721875,"end":6467.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6467.91471875,"end":6467.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6493.41284375,"end":6493.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6493.42971875,"end":6493.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6494.2059687500005,"end":6495.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6496.770968750001,"end":6499.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6508.3134687500005,"end":6514.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6515.046593749999,"end":6516.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6520.24409375,"end":6534.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6521.138468749999,"end":6521.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6521.155343750001,"end":6521.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6535.00971875,"end":6539.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6539.8865937499995,"end":6546.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6540.122843749999,"end":6540.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6545.185343749999,"end":6549.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6548.3915937500005,"end":6552.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6552.458468750001,"end":6556.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6556.69409375,"end":6612.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6561.06471875,"end":6561.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6613.107218749999,"end":6620.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6620.22846875,"end":6626.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6626.387843750001,"end":6626.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6626.809718750001,"end":6647.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6647.22846875,"end":6648.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6648.76409375,"end":6653.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6653.96159375,"end":6655.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6656.239718750001,"end":6679.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6679.965968750001,"end":6683.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6683.239718750001,"end":6692.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6691.2215937500005,"end":6718.204718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6718.6434687500005,"end":6737.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6738.28596875,"end":6745.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6745.8290937500005,"end":6745.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6745.84596875,"end":6751.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6752.07284375,"end":6754.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6753.89534375,"end":6758.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6758.68784375,"end":6758.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6758.805968750001,"end":6758.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6758.8397187499995,"end":6759.548468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6759.548468750001,"end":6759.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6759.5653437500005,"end":6760.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6760.206593750001,"end":6791.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":6768.20534375,"end":6768.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6791.12159375,"end":6815.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6815.8603437500005,"end":6849.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6850.3865937499995,"end":6877.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6877.52159375,"end":6877.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6877.538468750001,"end":6878.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6880.05284375,"end":6891.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6891.932843750001,"end":6895.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6895.47659375,"end":6897.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6897.34971875,"end":6898.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6899.425343750001,"end":6903.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6905.2978437500005,"end":6912.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":6913.161593750001,"end":6916.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6916.9247187500005,"end":6917.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6917.07659375,"end":6922.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6922.66221875,"end":6925.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6925.024718750001,"end":6925.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6925.581593750001,"end":6925.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6925.632218750001,"end":6925.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6925.682843750001,"end":6925.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6925.80096875,"end":6925.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6926.40846875,"end":6950.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6950.809718750001,"end":6961.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6961.390343750001,"end":6971.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6969.456593750001,"end":6991.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6979.00784375,"end":6979.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6979.024718750001,"end":6980.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6980.239718750001,"end":6980.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6982.36596875,"end":6982.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6991.208468750001,"end":6991.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6991.32659375,"end":7010.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7012.167218750001,"end":7012.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7013.466593749999,"end":7014.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7014.968468750001,"end":7015.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7015.98096875,"end":7016.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7016.014718750001,"end":7019.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7019.2040937500005,"end":7019.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7019.22096875,"end":7019.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7019.237843750001,"end":7033.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7022.950343750001,"end":7023.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7031.843468750001,"end":7035.876593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7033.919093750001,"end":7038.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7037.378468750001,"end":7040.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7038.66096875,"end":7048.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7041.76596875,"end":7043.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7045.14096875,"end":7045.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7047.081593750001,"end":7081.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7050.38909375,"end":7051.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7054.33784375,"end":7054.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7054.70909375,"end":7054.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7081.55721875,"end":7082.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7082.468468750001,"end":7084.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7084.864718750001,"end":7087.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7086.77159375,"end":7096.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7093.639718750001,"end":7093.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7093.8084687499995,"end":7093.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7093.84221875,"end":7093.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7093.859093750001,"end":7093.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7093.92659375,"end":7095.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7096.32284375,"end":7099.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7100.1365937499995,"end":7114.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7112.235968750001,"end":7116.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7114.69971875,"end":7119.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7119.66096875,"end":7131.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7126.073468750001,"end":7126.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7130.714093750001,"end":7131.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7131.186593750001,"end":7133.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7133.97096875,"end":7142.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7141.75034375,"end":7143.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7143.319718750001,"end":7147.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7145.294093750001,"end":7146.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7146.99846875,"end":7147.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7147.28534375,"end":7155.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7154.389718750001,"end":7161.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7158.72659375,"end":7158.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7160.02596875,"end":7193.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7172.901593750001,"end":7173.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7193.40471875,"end":7199.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7199.96909375,"end":7206.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7206.98909375,"end":7208.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7207.259093750001,"end":7217.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7215.780968750001,"end":7217.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7217.02971875,"end":7218.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7218.092843750001,"end":7219.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7218.919718749999,"end":7219.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7219.05471875,"end":7219.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7219.071593750001,"end":7219.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7219.1053437499995,"end":7219.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7219.51034375,"end":7220.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":7220.97846875,"end":7221.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7221.029093749999,"end":7229.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7228.217843750001,"end":7232.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7230.85034375,"end":7230.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7232.807843750001,"end":7234.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7235.794718749999,"end":7235.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7235.811593750001,"end":7242.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7242.966593749999,"end":7247.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7247.59034375,"end":7247.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7247.82659375,"end":7247.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7247.97846875,"end":7270.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7250.91471875,"end":7251.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7260.48284375,"end":7261.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7261.51221875,"end":7266.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7269.15659375,"end":7271.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7273.13909375,"end":7275.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7285.05284375,"end":7287.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7287.887843750001,"end":7288.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7289.659718750001,"end":7291.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7291.61721875,"end":7292.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7292.22471875,"end":7292.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7296.00471875,"end":7296.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7297.18596875,"end":7297.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7297.94534375,"end":7298.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7299.177218750001,"end":7299.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7299.19409375,"end":7306.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7306.669718749999,"end":7330.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7331.3240937499995,"end":7335.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7335.272843750001,"end":7338.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7338.698468750001,"end":7343.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7343.895968750001,"end":7347.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7347.642218750001,"end":7351.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7351.590968750001,"end":7353.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7353.548468750001,"end":7354.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7355.100968750001,"end":7358.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7358.3240937499995,"end":7360.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7360.686593750001,"end":7364.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7365.225968750001,"end":7365.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7365.782843750001,"end":7366.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7367.31846875,"end":7377.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7377.44346875,"end":7380.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7381.1728437500005,"end":7381.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7382.08409375,"end":7385.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7385.69534375,"end":7387.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7388.44596875,"end":7402.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7402.874093750001,"end":7406.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7407.24471875,"end":7415.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7415.985968750001,"end":7424.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7424.5584687499995,"end":7427.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7428.034718750001,"end":7429.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7429.97534375,"end":7440.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7441.0790937500005,"end":7443.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7443.694718750001,"end":7445.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7445.669093750001,"end":7448.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7448.520968750001,"end":7460.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7460.704718750001,"end":7480.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7481.49471875,"end":7495.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7496.3447187500005,"end":7508.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7508.30909375,"end":7508.376593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7508.3934687500005,"end":7518.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7519.09221875,"end":7520.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7521.134093750001,"end":7524.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7525.28534375,"end":7525.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7526.17971875,"end":7528.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7528.94721875,"end":7536.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7536.81096875,"end":7538.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7538.97096875,"end":7540.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7541.08034375,"end":7562.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7560.94221875,"end":7561.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7563.01784375,"end":7564.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7564.030343750001,"end":7573.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7565.7684687500005,"end":7566.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7573.632218750001,"end":7613.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7614.19971875,"end":7616.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7616.69721875,"end":7635.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7636.170968750001,"end":7639.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7640.22096875,"end":7640.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7641.72284375,"end":7642.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7642.98846875,"end":7646.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7646.97096875,"end":7647.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7648.017218750001,"end":7655.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7655.93159375,"end":7656.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7656.77534375,"end":7657.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7657.97346875,"end":7660.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7660.589093750001,"end":7661.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7662.090968750001,"end":7663.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7663.87971875,"end":7666.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7666.579718750001,"end":7668.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7668.419093750001,"end":7668.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7669.532843750001,"end":7674.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7674.47721875,"end":7684.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7684.83846875,"end":7686.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7686.880343750001,"end":7699.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7699.5028437500005,"end":7701.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7699.78971875,"end":7700.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7702.1522187499995,"end":7705.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7705.22346875,"end":7708.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7709.3915937500005,"end":7709.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7710.52221875,"end":7718.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7718.82471875,"end":7720.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7720.529093749999,"end":7725.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7725.62534375,"end":7764.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7764.4715937500005,"end":7783.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7784.0634687500005,"end":7786.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7786.763468749999,"end":7789.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7789.64909375,"end":7790.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7792.46721875,"end":7831.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7832.005343750001,"end":7832.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7832.190968750001,"end":7832.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7833.47346875,"end":7833.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7833.929093750001,"end":7833.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7834.401593750001,"end":7834.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7834.536593750001,"end":7834.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7834.60409375,"end":7834.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7834.97534375,"end":7840.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7840.71284375,"end":7855.107218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7855.107218749999,"end":7857.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7857.7059687500005,"end":7875.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7875.137843750001,"end":7882.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7879.66034375,"end":7879.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7881.415343750001,"end":7884.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7884.2840937500005,"end":7891.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7890.76409375,"end":7904.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7903.70721875,"end":7908.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7909.3603437500005,"end":7913.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7913.96721875,"end":7914.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7914.89534375,"end":7914.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7914.96284375,"end":7915.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7915.0809687500005,"end":7915.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7915.1990937499995,"end":7916.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7916.4647187499995,"end":7923.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7921.61159375,"end":7922.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7923.501593750001,"end":7923.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7923.5184687500005,"end":7923.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7927.09596875,"end":7927.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7927.12971875,"end":7929.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7930.97721875,"end":7931.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":7932.225968750001,"end":7959.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7966.920968750001,"end":7972.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7978.952843750001,"end":7978.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7978.9697187500005,"end":7979.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7979.340968750001,"end":7979.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7980.38721875,"end":7984.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7984.859093750001,"end":7988.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7989.34784375,"end":7989.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7989.38159375,"end":7992.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7992.33471875,"end":7992.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7993.110968750001,"end":7998.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7999.253468750001,"end":8004.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8003.82659375,"end":8005.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8005.41284375,"end":8007.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8008.12971875,"end":8012.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8012.567843750001,"end":8019.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8018.845343750001,"end":8018.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8018.9803437499995,"end":8019.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8019.0478437500005,"end":8019.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8019.267218750001,"end":8030.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8022.52409375,"end":8024.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8030.45534375,"end":8033.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8034.70784375,"end":8036.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8035.214093750001,"end":8035.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8035.686593750001,"end":8035.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8035.720343750001,"end":8035.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8035.770968750001,"end":8035.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8036.192843750001,"end":8036.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8037.087218750001,"end":8038.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8039.7197187500005,"end":8049.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8050.215968750001,"end":8060.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8060.661593750001,"end":8077.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8062.12971875,"end":8062.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8074.904093750001,"end":8078.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8079.02159375,"end":8080.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8079.224093750001,"end":8079.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8080.79346875,"end":8085.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8082.835343750001,"end":8083.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8084.21909375,"end":8103.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8085.889718750001,"end":8089.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8090.5809687500005,"end":8090.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8091.6103437500005,"end":8091.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8091.644093750001,"end":8091.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8091.91409375,"end":8091.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8100.75659375,"end":8101.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8102.376593750001,"end":8105.700968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8106.34221875,"end":8108.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8108.77221875,"end":8112.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8110.74659375,"end":8122.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8123.436593750001,"end":8125.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8125.88346875,"end":8148.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8149.120343750001,"end":8163.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8164.392218750001,"end":8166.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8166.75471875,"end":8169.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8170.0790937500005,"end":8173.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8174.483468750001,"end":8181.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8182.56659375,"end":8183.798468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8183.88284375,"end":8203.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8204.84159375,"end":8247.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8247.535343750002,"end":8258.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8259.972218750001,"end":8266.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8266.992218750001,"end":8270.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8271.09284375,"end":8273.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8273.52284375,"end":8275.446593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8276.98221875,"end":8277.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8278.58534375,"end":8284.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8284.339718750001,"end":8287.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8287.191593750002,"end":8292.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8293.13159375,"end":8306.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8307.087218750003,"end":8312.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8312.723468750002,"end":8313.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8313.719093750002,"end":8321.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8322.274718750003,"end":8328.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8328.51846875,"end":8333.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8333.547218750002,"end":8336.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8336.78721875,"end":8336.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8336.972843750002,"end":8336.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8337.884093750003,"end":8339.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8339.605343750001,"end":8341.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8342.035343750002,"end":8342.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8342.11971875,"end":8343.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8352.41346875,"end":8360.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8360.648468750001,"end":8362.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8363.06159375,"end":8365.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8365.339718750001,"end":8372.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8371.80284375,"end":8393.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8394.044093750003,"end":8403.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8394.60096875,"end":8394.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8404.320968750002,"end":8404.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8405.13096875,"end":8405.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8405.907218750002,"end":8411.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8412.72471875,"end":8415.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8415.492218750001,"end":8415.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8415.660968750002,"end":8415.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8416.15034375,"end":8430.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8426.69721875,"end":8428.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8429.515343750001,"end":8431.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8431.38846875,"end":8435.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8436.012218750002,"end":8436.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8436.332843750002,"end":8447.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8436.46784375,"end":8436.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8447.605343750001,"end":8451.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8451.891593750002,"end":8466.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8466.657218750002,"end":8467.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8468.00721875,"end":8471.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8470.16721875,"end":8470.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8471.820968750002,"end":8471.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8471.83784375,"end":8472.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8472.293468750002,"end":8485.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8472.36096875,"end":8472.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8480.258468750002,"end":8483.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8486.097218750001,"end":8486.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8487.51471875,"end":8488.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8488.898468750001,"end":8501.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8501.706593750001,"end":8502.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8502.53346875,"end":8510.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8508.743468750003,"end":8513.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8510.61659375,"end":8511.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8513.87346875,"end":8519.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8519.796593750001,"end":8522.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8522.85096875,"end":8526.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8527.05284375,"end":8537.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8537.76846875,"end":8550.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8551.57221875,"end":8561.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8562.574718750002,"end":8562.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8562.59159375,"end":8562.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8562.65909375,"end":8564.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8563.047218750002,"end":8563.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8565.105968750002,"end":8570.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8570.92784375,"end":8572.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8574.184718750003,"end":8576.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8574.539093750001,"end":8577.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8577.00284375,"end":8577.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8577.981593750003,"end":8578.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8578.25159375,"end":8589.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8590.45221875,"end":8599.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8599.176593750002,"end":8601.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8601.30284375,"end":8605.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8603.817218750002,"end":8603.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8604.00284375,"end":8605.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8607.20909375,"end":8611.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8620.675343750001,"end":8623.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8625.14721875,"end":8625.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8628.218468750001,"end":8628.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8630.41221875,"end":8630.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8630.817218750002,"end":8630.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8630.969093750002,"end":8638.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8638.984718750002,"end":8642.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8643.18659375,"end":8649.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8643.23721875,"end":8643.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8650.155968750001,"end":8653.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8654.99909375,"end":8663.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8663.48721875,"end":8675.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8675.60346875,"end":8677.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8677.98284375,"end":8681.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8681.273468750001,"end":8691.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8689.440968750001,"end":8689.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8691.398468750001,"end":8705.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8700.76409375,"end":8701.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8706.07971875,"end":8712.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8712.930968750003,"end":8726.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8726.59971875,"end":8733.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8733.737843750001,"end":8740.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8740.57221875,"end":8742.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8743.15409375,"end":8744.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8744.53784375,"end":8808.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8809.81034375,"end":8810.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8809.894718750002,"end":8810.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8810.738468750002,"end":8810.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8810.87346875,"end":8819.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8811.91971875,"end":8811.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8811.98721875,"end":8812.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8819.969093750002,"end":8832.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8826.43221875,"end":8826.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8832.456593750001,"end":8832.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8832.574718750002,"end":8875.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8872.500968750002,"end":8873.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8874.644093750001,"end":8878.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8877.73221875,"end":8880.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8880.17909375,"end":8909.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8886.405968750001,"end":8886.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8886.96284375,"end":8886.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8886.97971875,"end":8887.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8890.40534375,"end":8890.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8890.472843750002,"end":8890.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8890.523468750001,"end":8891.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8891.97471875,"end":8892.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8894.691593750002,"end":8895.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8895.02909375,"end":8895.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8895.36659375,"end":8895.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8899.04534375,"end":8899.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8899.079093750002,"end":8899.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8910.31784375,"end":8923.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8922.062843750002,"end":8938.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8925.30284375,"end":8926.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8926.36596875,"end":8926.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8933.79096875,"end":8933.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8933.824718750002,"end":8934.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8934.347843750002,"end":8934.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8935.191593750002,"end":8935.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8938.296593750001,"end":8938.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8938.988468750002,"end":8941.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":8941.06409375,"end":8943.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8941.941593750002,"end":8942.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8943.07221875,"end":8944.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8949.72096875,"end":8950.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8951.425343750001,"end":8953.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8960.21721875,"end":8960.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8961.65159375,"end":8963.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8964.503468750001,"end":8965.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8971.253468750001,"end":8971.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8972.23221875,"end":8977.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8977.63221875,"end":8985.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8986.035968750002,"end":8986.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8987.250968750002,"end":8988.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8988.31409375,"end":8990.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8990.37284375,"end":8990.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8991.21659375,"end":9027.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9027.71721875,"end":9043.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9042.921593750001,"end":9090.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9090.964718750001,"end":9097.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9098.28846875,"end":9098.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9098.76096875,"end":9119.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9119.43284375,"end":9119.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9119.449718750002,"end":9119.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9119.48346875,"end":9119.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9119.669093750003,"end":9119.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9119.922218750002,"end":9121.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9121.390343750001,"end":9130.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9130.48596875,"end":9130.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9130.77284375,"end":9133.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9130.789718750002,"end":9130.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9130.82346875,"end":9130.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9133.422218750002,"end":9133.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9133.43909375,"end":9133.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9133.45596875,"end":9133.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9133.472843750002,"end":9134.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9134.535968750002,"end":9165.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9165.78846875,"end":9168.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9167.813468750002,"end":9175.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9175.609718750002,"end":9185.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9185.02596875,"end":9185.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9185.39721875,"end":9185.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9185.954093750002,"end":9198.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9197.85096875,"end":9198.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9198.45846875,"end":9204.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9198.47534375,"end":9198.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9199.74096875,"end":9200.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9204.85409375,"end":9207.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9208.60034375,"end":9209.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9210.743468750003,"end":9212.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9212.481593750003,"end":9212.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9214.77659375,"end":9216.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9216.76784375,"end":9219.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9220.39596875,"end":9223.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9220.83471875,"end":9220.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9220.851593750001,"end":9222.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9223.19721875,"end":9225.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9226.352843750003,"end":9228.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9228.63096875,"end":9245.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9239.211593750002,"end":9239.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9246.265343750001,"end":9250.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9250.500968750002,"end":9253.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9253.52159375,"end":9254.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9254.01096875,"end":9268.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9269.28284375,"end":9282.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9283.49159375,"end":9297.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9297.88596875,"end":9299.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9300.315968750001,"end":9302.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9302.93159375,"end":9304.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9304.855343750001,"end":9315.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9316.414718750002,"end":9361.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9325.105343750001,"end":9325.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9326.03346875,"end":9327.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9362.129093750002,"end":9370.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9370.785968750002,"end":9438.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9377.18159375,"end":9377.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9392.622218750003,"end":9393.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9410.50971875,"end":9411.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9412.83846875,"end":9413.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9438.84284375,"end":9447.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9447.972218750001,"end":9453.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9453.895343750002,"end":9465.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9464.93159375,"end":9466.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9466.26471875,"end":9467.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9466.281593750002,"end":9467.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9467.88471875,"end":9468.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9468.964718750001,"end":9531.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9472.407218750002,"end":9472.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9474.516593750002,"end":9474.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9481.317218750002,"end":9481.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9481.35096875,"end":9483.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9484.06784375,"end":9487.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9488.65784375,"end":9488.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9512.18159375,"end":9512.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9516.61971875,"end":9516.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9516.636593750001,"end":9517.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9518.23971875,"end":9518.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9518.25659375,"end":9519.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9531.570968750002,"end":9531.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9531.73971875,"end":9532.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9532.92096875,"end":9533.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9534.152843750002,"end":9534.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9534.878468750001,"end":9535.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9536.515343750001,"end":9540.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9540.91971875,"end":9544.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9544.497218750003,"end":9552.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9552.78284375,"end":9561.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9561.574718750002,"end":9568.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9568.71284375,"end":9576.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9576.72846875,"end":9582.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9583.07346875,"end":9587.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9587.562218750001,"end":9591.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9591.81471875,"end":9598.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9598.76721875,"end":9626.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9602.665343750003,"end":9602.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9602.969093750002,"end":9603.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9612.942218750002,"end":9613.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9626.20596875,"end":9652.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9651.88971875,"end":9651.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9651.92346875,"end":9652.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9652.024718750003,"end":9652.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9652.56471875,"end":9652.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9652.76721875,"end":9653.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9653.340968750003,"end":9653.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":9653.35784375,"end":9653.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9671.17784375,"end":9673.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9680.35784375,"end":9685.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9685.656593750002,"end":9688.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9686.41596875,"end":9686.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9688.17096875,"end":9691.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9696.422843750002,"end":9696.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9696.76034375,"end":9697.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9697.789718750002,"end":9699.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9700.320968750002,"end":9704.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9705.02909375,"end":9763.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9763.83846875,"end":9765.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9766.184093750002,"end":9767.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9767.88846875,"end":9768.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9769.019093750001,"end":9770.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9771.145343750002,"end":9772.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9773.22096875,"end":9774.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9774.942218750002,"end":9778.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9778.28346875,"end":9780.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9780.86534375,"end":9784.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9784.24034375,"end":9792.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9792.42471875,"end":9794.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9795.074093750001,"end":9800.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9801.43596875,"end":9807.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9808.540343750003,"end":9830.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9831.91221875,"end":9832.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9832.587218750003,"end":9834.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9834.780968750001,"end":9835.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9836.384093750003,"end":9839.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9840.164093750001,"end":9854.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9852.16221875,"end":9852.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9852.17909375,"end":9852.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9854.49096875,"end":9858.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9858.405968750001,"end":9858.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9858.878468750001,"end":9872.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9873.03659375,"end":9875.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9875.972843750002,"end":9883.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9883.97159375,"end":9890.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9890.789093750001,"end":9891.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9891.24471875,"end":9895.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9895.699718750002,"end":9900.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9900.492218750001,"end":9907.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9907.91721875,"end":9922.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9923.172218750002,"end":9925.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9926.05784375,"end":9929.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9930.31034375,"end":9933.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9934.07346875,"end":9935.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9936.65534375,"end":9938.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9938.612843750001,"end":9944.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9945.008468750002,"end":9947.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9949.31159375,"end":9949.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9950.340968750003,"end":9951.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9952.112843750001,"end":9953.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9955.04909375,"end":9955.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9956.348468750002,"end":9959.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9960.53346875,"end":9961.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9961.91721875,"end":9963.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9964.81971875,"end":9967.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9968.954093750002,"end":9969.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9970.219718750002,"end":9973.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9973.425968750002,"end":9976.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9976.66596875,"end":9977.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9977.813468750002,"end":9980.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9981.509093750003,"end":9983.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9984.36096875,"end":9984.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9985.54221875,"end":9987.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9987.077843750001,"end":9989.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9989.507843750001,"end":9990.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9990.68909375,"end":9991.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9992.410343750002,"end":9993.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9994.249718750001,"end":9996.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9997.28721875,"end":9998.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9998.87346875,"end":10000.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10000.847843750002,"end":10002.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10002.906593750002,"end":10003.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10003.83471875,"end":10006.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10006.78784375,"end":10007.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10008.67784375,"end":10013.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10014.769718750002,"end":10015.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10016.153468750003,"end":10016.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10017.250343750002,"end":10018.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10018.785968750002,"end":10019.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10019.477843750003,"end":10020.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10020.97971875,"end":10022.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10023.156593750002,"end":10025.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10025.35034375,"end":10026.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10027.29096875,"end":10029.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10029.92346875,"end":10033.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10034.074718750002,"end":10041.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10041.28034375,"end":10042.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10042.52909375,"end":10043.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10043.96346875,"end":10051.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10051.692218750002,"end":10052.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10053.09284375,"end":10054.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10054.695968750002,"end":10057.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10057.902218750001,"end":10058.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10059.066593750002,"end":10060.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10061.10846875,"end":10062.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10063.52159375,"end":10063.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10064.63534375,"end":10065.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10066.305968750003,"end":10070.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10071.098468750002,"end":10074.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10077.88221875,"end":10084.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10084.952843750001,"end":10093.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10093.761593750001,"end":10096.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10096.79909375,"end":10100.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10101.000968750002,"end":10104.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10104.88221875,"end":10107.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10107.76784375,"end":10110.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10110.332843750002,"end":10118.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10118.129093750002,"end":10124.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10125.081593750001,"end":10127.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10127.66346875,"end":10127.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10127.950343750003,"end":10129.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10129.55346875,"end":10129.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10130.54909375,"end":10137.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10138.075343750003,"end":10163.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10163.62409375,"end":10166.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10167.15096875,"end":10169.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10169.766593750002,"end":10171.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10172.280968750001,"end":10183.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10186.844093750002,"end":10198.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10198.234718750002,"end":10209.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10209.726593750001,"end":10216.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10217.10096875,"end":10220.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10221.79221875,"end":10222.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10226.449718750002,"end":10233.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10233.28409375,"end":10242.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10249.602218750002,"end":10249.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10250.395343750002,"end":10252.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10254.344093750002,"end":10257.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10257.887843750003,"end":10258.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10260.90846875,"end":10275.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10276.433468750001,"end":10279.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10280.247218750003,"end":10284.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10285.140968750002,"end":10286.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10286.659718750001,"end":10288.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10289.54534375,"end":10300.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10300.19346875,"end":10300.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10300.26096875,"end":10306.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10306.234718750002,"end":10306.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10306.58909375,"end":10325.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10326.113468750002,"end":10338.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10338.550343750001,"end":10338.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10338.85409375,"end":10405.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10354.26096875,"end":10356.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10405.105343750001,"end":10406.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10407.704093750002,"end":10415.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10415.972843750002,"end":10417.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10417.035968750002,"end":10417.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10417.05284375,"end":10417.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10417.06971875,"end":10417.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10417.187843750002,"end":10418.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10418.26784375,"end":10419.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10419.43221875,"end":10422.672218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10423.54971875,"end":10429.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10429.01721875,"end":10438.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10433.860343750002,"end":10434.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10434.02909375,"end":10434.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10434.04596875,"end":10434.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10434.07971875,"end":10434.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10434.09659375,"end":10434.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10434.14721875,"end":10434.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10434.24846875,"end":10434.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10434.50159375,"end":10435.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10435.78409375,"end":10435.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10438.973468750002,"end":10439.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10440.019718750002,"end":10440.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10440.20534375,"end":10442.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10443.394718750002,"end":10446.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10444.930343750002,"end":10444.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10444.94721875,"end":10445.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10445.75721875,"end":10445.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10447.360343750002,"end":10448.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10448.997218750003,"end":10449.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10452.50721875,"end":10452.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10452.97971875,"end":10453.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10453.80659375,"end":10454.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10454.481593750003,"end":10454.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10455.055343750002,"end":10456.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10457.839718750001,"end":10458.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10458.750968750002,"end":10465.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10466.00721875,"end":10466.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10466.04096875,"end":10467.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10467.930968750003,"end":10468.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10468.63971875,"end":10474.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10474.86659375,"end":10480.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10481.59971875,"end":10482.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10482.780968750001,"end":10485.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10485.04221875,"end":10485.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10488.164093750001,"end":10494.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10495.555343750002,"end":10495.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10495.58909375,"end":10496.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10496.38221875,"end":10502.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10503.030968750001,"end":10508.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10504.043468750002,"end":10504.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10505.359718750002,"end":10506.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10507.82346875,"end":10508.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10509.730343750001,"end":10512.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10512.34596875,"end":10514.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10516.598468750002,"end":10516.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10516.61534375,"end":10521.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10517.239718750003,"end":10517.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10521.559718750003,"end":10532.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10522.032218750002,"end":10522.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10526.774093750002,"end":10526.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10526.79096875,"end":10526.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10532.96721875,"end":10533.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10533.01784375,"end":10533.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10533.270968750003,"end":10533.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10533.372218750003,"end":10533.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10533.38909375,"end":10533.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10533.422843750002,"end":10533.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10533.64221875,"end":10538.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10533.743468750003,"end":10534.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10538.18159375,"end":10538.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10538.535968750002,"end":10542.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10541.337218750003,"end":10544.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10544.20596875,"end":10547.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10546.382843750001,"end":10546.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10547.09159375,"end":10550.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10550.78721875,"end":10554.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10551.816593750002,"end":10552.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10553.85846875,"end":10554.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10554.26346875,"end":10554.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10554.28034375,"end":10555.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10555.02284375,"end":10555.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10557.351593750001,"end":10561.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10561.70534375,"end":10570.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10571.172218750002,"end":10572.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10574.05784375,"end":10581.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10582.242218750001,"end":10586.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10587.59159375,"end":10591.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10589.65034375,"end":10600.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10601.125343750002,"end":10603.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10603.58909375,"end":10605.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10606.10346875,"end":10614.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10614.55784375,"end":10620.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10621.206593750001,"end":10622.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10622.62409375,"end":10624.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10624.51409375,"end":10643.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10633.64346875,"end":10634.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10643.515343750001,"end":10652.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10652.94846875,"end":10652.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10654.534718750001,"end":10677.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10656.52596875,"end":10657.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10673.789093750001,"end":10673.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10677.602843750003,"end":10691.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10681.78784375,"end":10682.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10691.54159375,"end":10691.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10691.79471875,"end":10692.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10693.296593750001,"end":10705.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10707.066593750002,"end":10708.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10709.648468750001,"end":10721.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10710.32346875,"end":10710.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10713.715343750002,"end":10713.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10715.38596875,"end":10715.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10720.06034375,"end":10720.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10722.945968750002,"end":10725.629093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10725.848468750002,"end":10725.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10725.93284375,"end":10726.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10726.08471875,"end":10726.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10726.219718750002,"end":10731.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10731.805343750002,"end":10743.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10743.347843750002,"end":10745.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10745.64284375,"end":10747.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10747.583468750003,"end":10747.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10747.667843750001,"end":10748.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10748.86596875,"end":10748.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10749.97971875,"end":10750.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10750.519718750002,"end":10756.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10756.004093750002,"end":10756.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10756.03784375,"end":10756.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10756.223468750002,"end":10756.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10756.274093750002,"end":10771.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10771.613468750002,"end":10774.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10774.70159375,"end":10786.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10778.093468750001,"end":10778.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10778.110343750002,"end":10778.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10778.75159375,"end":10778.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10778.785343750002,"end":10778.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10782.51471875,"end":10782.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10782.56534375,"end":10782.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10782.86909375,"end":10782.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10787.13846875,"end":10799.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10788.40409375,"end":10789.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10789.26471875,"end":10789.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10797.73596875,"end":10798.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10799.879093750002,"end":10799.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10800.13221875,"end":10804.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10800.368468750003,"end":10800.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10803.051593750002,"end":10803.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10804.77284375,"end":10848.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10811.40471875,"end":10811.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10830.91221875,"end":10831.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10831.82346875,"end":10831.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10848.968468750001,"end":10849.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10849.37346875,"end":10850.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10852.461593750002,"end":10855.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10866.164093750001,"end":10871.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":10872.20534375,"end":10873.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10874.11221875,"end":10936.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10936.718468750001,"end":10940.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10941.224093750003,"end":10942.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10942.33784375,"end":10942.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10943.586593750002,"end":10989.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10990.634093750003,"end":11005.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11005.551593750002,"end":11007.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11007.77909375,"end":11010.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11010.73221875,"end":11014.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11014.309718750003,"end":11020.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11020.536593750003,"end":11029.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11024.56971875,"end":11025.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11025.008468750002,"end":11025.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11029.71659375,"end":11100.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11100.50721875,"end":11100.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11102.144093750001,"end":11107.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11107.76346875,"end":11108.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11108.30346875,"end":11109.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11109.92346875,"end":11114.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11115.69471875,"end":11127.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11127.65909375,"end":11139.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11139.79221875,"end":11161.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11161.797218750002,"end":11167.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11168.074718750002,"end":11170.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11170.47096875,"end":11173.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11174.01471875,"end":11182.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11183.414093750001,"end":11197.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11197.875968750002,"end":11198.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11199.52971875,"end":11206.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11205.824093750001,"end":11206.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11207.39346875,"end":11208.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11207.71409375,"end":11210.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11210.835968750001,"end":11211.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11211.679718750001,"end":11215.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11216.961593750002,"end":11218.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11218.581593750001,"end":11218.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11218.598468750002,"end":11219.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11219.661593750003,"end":11226.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11227.91346875,"end":11231.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11231.558468750001,"end":11232.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11232.75659375,"end":11238.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11232.95909375,"end":11233.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11239.92846875,"end":11254.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11254.74471875,"end":11261.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11261.22471875,"end":11263.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11264.86971875,"end":11278.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11279.196593750003,"end":11279.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11280.58034375,"end":11281.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11282.554718750001,"end":11284.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11285.035343750002,"end":11291.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11291.565968750001,"end":11309.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11309.993468750003,"end":11310.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11311.394093750001,"end":11314.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11322.312218750001,"end":11323.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11324.421593750001,"end":11327.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11327.56034375,"end":11330.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11330.614718750003,"end":11332.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11332.875968750002,"end":11335.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11335.54221875,"end":11339.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11339.828468750002,"end":11341.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11345.481593750003,"end":11348.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11348.367218750001,"end":11350.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11348.55284375,"end":11348.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11348.586593750002,"end":11348.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11348.87346875,"end":11348.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11351.759093750003,"end":11351.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11351.77596875,"end":11352.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11352.29909375,"end":11352.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11353.46346875,"end":11354.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11355.336593750002,"end":11361.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11362.49159375,"end":11368.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11368.887218750002,"end":11391.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11392.090343750002,"end":11395.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11395.85346875,"end":11445.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11446.02284375,"end":11516.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11517.589718750001,"end":11527.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11529.85784375,"end":11530.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11530.684718750003,"end":11537.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11538.34596875,"end":11543.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11542.93596875,"end":11543.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11543.864093750002,"end":11568.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11543.914718750002,"end":11543.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11544.015968750002,"end":11547.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11551.035968750002,"end":11551.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11551.339718750001,"end":11551.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11567.792843750001,"end":11567.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11567.92784375,"end":11568.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11568.704093750002,"end":11573.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11573.41221875,"end":11592.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11593.695968750002,"end":11594.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11595.855968750002,"end":11606.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11607.53346875,"end":11619.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11620.45971875,"end":11631.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11632.42409375,"end":11634.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11635.05659375,"end":11641.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11641.469093750002,"end":11649.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11650.21034375,"end":11655.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11655.441593750002,"end":11665.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11665.887218750002,"end":11679.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11680.028468750003,"end":11689.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11689.42784375,"end":11690.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11691.520343750002,"end":11701.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11702.25284375,"end":11723.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11723.464718750001,"end":11748.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11749.148468750001,"end":11752.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11752.60784375,"end":11753.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11753.265968750002,"end":11754.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11754.480968750002,"end":11759.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11758.699718750002,"end":11759.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11760.758468750002,"end":11766.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11765.770343750002,"end":11766.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11766.25971875,"end":11766.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11766.27659375,"end":11766.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11766.411593750003,"end":11773.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11773.937843750002,"end":11779.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11780.24909375,"end":11780.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11781.02534375,"end":11788.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11788.602218750002,"end":11792.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11793.73221875,"end":11801.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11801.933468750001,"end":11810.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11811.24846875,"end":11813.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11813.94846875,"end":11816.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11817.15471875,"end":11842.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11842.973468750002,"end":11854.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11854.87034375,"end":11871.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11871.89721875,"end":11875.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11875.980968750002,"end":11877.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11877.921593750001,"end":11878.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11878.96784375,"end":11880.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12309.364718750003,"end":12309.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12309.80346875,"end":12309.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12311.085968750001,"end":12313.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12314.207843750002,"end":12315.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12322.72971875,"end":12323.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12329.15909375,"end":12341.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12336.21284375,"end":12336.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12339.503468750001,"end":12339.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12339.520343750002,"end":12340.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12341.59596875,"end":12343.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12344.61659375,"end":12345.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12346.067843750003,"end":12346.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12346.995968750001,"end":12347.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12347.08034375,"end":12347.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12347.164718750002,"end":12347.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12347.333468750003,"end":12347.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12347.417843750001,"end":12347.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12347.856593750003,"end":12347.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12348.29534375,"end":12348.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12348.329093750002,"end":12349.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12349.83096875,"end":12351.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12351.82221875,"end":12362.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12362.89221875,"end":12367.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12367.634093750003,"end":12383.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12383.73284375,"end":12393.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12394.195343750001,"end":12395.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12395.562218750001,"end":12396.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12397.890968750002,"end":12398.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12399.12284375,"end":12407.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12407.62784375,"end":12409.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12407.712218750003,"end":12407.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12407.762843750003,"end":12408.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12409.973468750002,"end":12419.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12419.187218750001,"end":12422.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12423.13596875,"end":12425.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12425.515343750001,"end":12429.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12429.61596875,"end":12430.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12431.286593750003,"end":12433.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12434.20596875,"end":12435.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12436.332218750002,"end":12436.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12438.880343750003,"end":12440.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12440.16284375,"end":12440.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12440.230343750001,"end":12440.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12440.247218750003,"end":12440.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12440.38221875,"end":12440.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12440.73659375,"end":12440.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12442.27221875,"end":12442.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12442.305968750003,"end":12444.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12442.79534375,"end":12443.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12444.48284375,"end":12454.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12455.24909375,"end":12464.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12463.78784375,"end":12463.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12464.00721875,"end":12465.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12465.458468750003,"end":12465.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12465.964718750001,"end":12473.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12473.74409375,"end":12474.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12474.55409375,"end":12475.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12476.22471875,"end":12479.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12479.61659375,"end":12487.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12487.969718750002,"end":12490.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12490.433468750001,"end":12493.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12493.11659375,"end":12494.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12495.293468750002,"end":12499.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12499.69784375,"end":12502.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12503.79846875,"end":12505.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12505.317218750002,"end":12510.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12510.91971875,"end":12512.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12512.65784375,"end":12515.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12515.83034375,"end":12516.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12516.31971875,"end":12521.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12521.719718750002,"end":12522.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12522.124718750001,"end":12522.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12522.63096875,"end":12523.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12523.59284375,"end":12523.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12523.609718750002,"end":12523.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12523.812218750001,"end":12525.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12525.31409375,"end":12529.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12529.92096875,"end":12534.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12534.426593750002,"end":12536.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12537.02534375,"end":12538.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12538.39221875,"end":12541.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12539.691593750002,"end":12540.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12540.585968750001,"end":12541.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12541.51409375,"end":12543.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12542.62784375,"end":12544.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12544.51784375,"end":12545.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12545.496593750002,"end":12560.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12560.835968750001,"end":12565.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12565.425968750002,"end":12567.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12568.649093750002,"end":12573.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12573.930968750003,"end":12577.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12577.457843750002,"end":12579.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12579.668468750002,"end":12581.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12581.49096875,"end":12582.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12582.824093750001,"end":12589.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12589.92846875,"end":12592.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12592.51034375,"end":12593.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12593.590343750002,"end":12594.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12594.906593750002,"end":12595.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12596.62784375,"end":12605.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12605.132843750001,"end":12605.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12605.284718750001,"end":12606.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12605.31846875,"end":12605.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12605.352218750002,"end":12605.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12605.41971875,"end":12605.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12606.53346875,"end":12612.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12612.878468750001,"end":12613.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12613.97534375,"end":12614.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12614.70096875,"end":12622.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12622.851593750001,"end":12629.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12630.58034375,"end":12632.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12633.21284375,"end":12638.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12638.76471875,"end":12642.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12642.81471875,"end":12644.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12645.683468750001,"end":12645.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12645.97034375,"end":12645.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12646.172843750002,"end":12648.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12648.61971875,"end":12676.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12654.74534375,"end":12655.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12676.19346875,"end":12681.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12682.386593750001,"end":12703.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12688.47846875,"end":12688.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12703.98659375,"end":12709.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12709.52159375,"end":12711.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12711.10784375,"end":12711.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12711.124718750001,"end":12711.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":12711.175343750001,"end":12712.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12712.05284375,"end":12719.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12719.933468750001,"end":12719.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12719.950343750003,"end":12720.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12720.034718750001,"end":12720.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12720.254093750002,"end":12720.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12720.270968750003,"end":12720.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12720.28784375,"end":12721.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12720.50721875,"end":12738.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12738.42846875,"end":12744.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12744.48659375,"end":12748.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12748.60409375,"end":12750.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12750.96659375,"end":12751.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12752.097218750001,"end":12752.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12752.99159375,"end":12753.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12753.160343750002,"end":12753.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12753.177218750003,"end":12753.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12753.379718750002,"end":12754.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12758.745968750001,"end":12761.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12768.58409375,"end":12770.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12771.317843750003,"end":12771.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12777.66284375,"end":12778.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12778.489718750003,"end":12786.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":12778.65846875,"end":12779.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12779.215343750002,"end":12779.282843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12781.08846875,"end":12781.392218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12786.589718750001,"end":12802.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12802.70534375,"end":12807.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12807.379718750002,"end":12815.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12815.78346875,"end":12824.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12825.689093750003,"end":12826.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12826.634093750003,"end":12831.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12831.797843750002,"end":12855.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12856.469093750002,"end":12856.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12856.75596875,"end":12876.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12875.942843750003,"end":12881.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12881.86596875,"end":12890.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12890.30346875,"end":12894.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12893.644718750002,"end":12893.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12895.180343750002,"end":12898.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12898.454093750002,"end":12899.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12899.972843750002,"end":12901.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12901.829093750002,"end":12909.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12909.574718750002,"end":12912.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12912.88221875,"end":12914.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12914.45159375,"end":12921.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12922.24784375,"end":12924.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12924.79596875,"end":12930.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12930.719093750002,"end":12935.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12935.882843750001,"end":12937.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12938.29596875,"end":12940.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12940.439093750003,"end":12940.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12940.72596875,"end":12954.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12954.58034375,"end":12957.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12958.039718750002,"end":12987.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12987.570968750002,"end":13010.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13010.53784375,"end":13018.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13018.958468750003,"end":13025.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13019.02596875,"end":13019.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13025.640968750002,"end":13027.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13028.03721875,"end":13033.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13033.302218750003,"end":13037.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13037.250968750002,"end":13045.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13045.789718750002,"end":13045.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13045.87409375,"end":13048.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13048.995968750001,"end":13049.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13049.063468750002,"end":13052.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13052.438468750002,"end":13056.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13057.19721875,"end":13061.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13061.21346875,"end":13065.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13066.259093750003,"end":13081.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13081.969718750002,"end":13089.360968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13089.64784375,"end":13092.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13092.449093750001,"end":13094.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13093.765343750001,"end":13101.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13101.257843750001,"end":13106.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13107.602843750003,"end":13108.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13108.817843750003,"end":13110.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13110.707843750002,"end":13112.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13113.390968750002,"end":13114.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13114.42034375,"end":13118.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13118.706593750001,"end":13119.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13120.157843750003,"end":13120.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13120.90034375,"end":13131.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13129.574093750001,"end":13131.126593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13131.227843750003,"end":13134.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13135.09221875,"end":13136.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13136.425343750001,"end":13137.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13138.230968750002,"end":13139.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13140.289718750002,"end":13144.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13145.43659375,"end":13146.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13147.579718750003,"end":13151.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13151.32596875,"end":13163.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13163.08784375,"end":13168.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13169.41596875,"end":13174.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13175.052218750003,"end":13177.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13177.954718750003,"end":13178.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13178.612843750001,"end":13178.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13178.66346875,"end":13178.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13178.71409375,"end":13183.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13184.063468750002,"end":13186.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13187.08409375,"end":13195.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13194.610343750002,"end":13194.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13195.302218750003,"end":13195.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13195.977218750002,"end":13196.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13196.179718750001,"end":13201.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13196.230343750001,"end":13199.048468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13201.934093750002,"end":13207.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13207.536593750003,"end":13210.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13211.77221875,"end":13216.767218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13216.969718750002,"end":13219.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13219.230968750002,"end":13221.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13221.930968750003,"end":13226.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13225.32284375,"end":13227.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13226.79096875,"end":13227.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13227.786593750003,"end":13231.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13231.532843750003,"end":13233.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13234.35096875,"end":13235.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13235.97096875,"end":13236.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13236.274718750003,"end":13237.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13237.540343750003,"end":13238.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13238.82284375,"end":13242.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13242.855968750002,"end":13248.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13242.923468750003,"end":13242.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13248.863468750002,"end":13254.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13254.567218750002,"end":13273.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13271.189093750003,"end":13279.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13274.83409375,"end":13274.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13274.918468750002,"end":13275.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13275.239093750002,"end":13275.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13279.22159375,"end":13279.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13279.559093750002,"end":13297.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13286.089718750001,"end":13286.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13296.67034375,"end":13296.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13297.04159375,"end":13298.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13299.285968750002,"end":13307.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13315.317218750002,"end":13318.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13319.637218750002,"end":13319.704718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13319.704718750003,"end":13319.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13319.789093750001,"end":13319.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13319.97471875,"end":13320.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13325.712218750003,"end":13325.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13325.72909375,"end":13325.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13325.77971875,"end":13326.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13326.04971875,"end":13326.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13329.914093750001,"end":13330.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13330.79159375,"end":13330.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13330.99409375,"end":13341.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13331.04471875,"end":13331.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13341.81096875,"end":13341.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13342.418468750002,"end":13345.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13345.60784375,"end":13348.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13349.472218750001,"end":13360.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13360.37346875,"end":13360.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13360.57596875,"end":13360.812218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13360.812218750001,"end":13371.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13371.848468750002,"end":13373.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13373.97471875,"end":13379.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13380.269093750001,"end":13382.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13383.00284375,"end":13388.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13388.723468750002,"end":13390.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13391.187218750001,"end":13393.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13393.75221875,"end":13397.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13398.257843750001,"end":13403.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13404.164093750001,"end":13406.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13406.62784375,"end":13414.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13411.20096875,"end":13412.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13415.183468750001,"end":13420.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13420.87034375,"end":13421.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13421.44409375,"end":13432.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13424.802218750003,"end":13425.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13425.004718750002,"end":13426.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13426.03409375,"end":13427.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13427.40096875,"end":13427.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13433.25659375,"end":13438.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13434.57284375,"end":13435.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13438.859093750001,"end":13439.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13440.360968750003,"end":13440.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13440.394718750002,"end":13441.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13441.980968750002,"end":13443.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13443.63471875,"end":13449.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13449.726593750001,"end":13455.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13455.750968750002,"end":13457.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13457.97846875,"end":13463.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13463.58096875,"end":13473.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13473.90846875,"end":13474.532843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13475.055968750003,"end":13481.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13482.07596875,"end":13485.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13486.446593750003,"end":13488.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13489.298468750003,"end":13489.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13490.547218750002,"end":13493.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13493.43284375,"end":13505.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13505.97096875,"end":13511.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13511.759093750003,"end":13518.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13518.711593750002,"end":13525.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13525.96784375,"end":13529.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13529.039093750001,"end":13534.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13534.320968750002,"end":13536.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13537.61159375,"end":13540.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13540.969718750002,"end":13541.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13541.03721875,"end":13541.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13541.965343750002,"end":13542.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13542.032843750003,"end":13542.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13542.977843750003,"end":13543.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13543.028468750003,"end":13544.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13545.070343750001,"end":13545.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13545.087218750003,"end":13547.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13547.922218750002,"end":13548.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13548.141593750002,"end":13548.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13548.968468750001,"end":13549.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13549.035968750002,"end":13551.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13551.972218750001,"end":13557.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13557.034718750001,"end":13560.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13561.371593750002,"end":13562.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13562.02971875,"end":13563.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13564.25721875,"end":13568.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13568.52659375,"end":13573.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13573.774718750003,"end":13590.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13575.00659375,"end":13575.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13587.375968750002,"end":13588.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13590.81846875,"end":13591.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13591.965968750003,"end":13597.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13598.867843750002,"end":13599.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13599.762218750002,"end":13603.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13603.559093750002,"end":13605.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13606.22534375,"end":13607.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13608.300968750002,"end":13612.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13612.33409375,"end":13618.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13618.915343750003,"end":13625.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13625.749718750001,"end":13657.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13657.508468750002,"end":13665.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13666.300343750001,"end":13670.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13671.02534375,"end":13675.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13675.41284375,"end":13694.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13694.464718750001,"end":13708.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13706.969093750002,"end":13708.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13708.63971875,"end":13708.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13709.41596875,"end":13718.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13709.63534375,"end":13710.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13710.023468750001,"end":13710.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13718.849093750003,"end":13725.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13726.155968750001,"end":13743.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13741.292843750001,"end":13760.985968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13761.239093750002,"end":13761.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13763.26409375,"end":13766.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13776.257843750001,"end":13778.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13778.687843750002,"end":13779.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13785.505343750003,"end":13801.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13786.551593750002,"end":13787.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13788.47534375,"end":13788.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13801.33409375,"end":13819.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13810.41284375,"end":13810.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13819.96409375,"end":13825.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13826.680343750002,"end":13835.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13835.97846875,"end":13840.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13836.062843750002,"end":13837.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13840.973468750002,"end":13852.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13845.22596875,"end":13845.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13852.48221875,"end":13853.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13853.798468750003,"end":13853.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13853.832218750002,"end":13853.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13853.899718750003,"end":13855.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13855.97534375,"end":13867.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13867.973468750002,"end":13868.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13868.294093750003,"end":13868.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13868.597843750002,"end":13869.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13869.711593750002,"end":13869.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13870.42034375,"end":13870.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13870.454093750002,"end":13870.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13871.247218750003,"end":13873.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13873.879718750002,"end":13873.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13875.90471875,"end":13918.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13876.191593750002,"end":13876.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13918.817843750003,"end":13920.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13920.539093750001,"end":13921.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13922.00721875,"end":13940.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13941.278468750003,"end":13942.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13943.387843750003,"end":13944.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13945.63221875,"end":13974.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13945.71659375,"end":13945.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":13974.79221875,"end":14000.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13985.153468750003,"end":13985.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13985.187218750001,"end":13985.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13985.204093750002,"end":13985.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13985.558468750001,"end":13985.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13985.575343750003,"end":13985.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13994.265968750002,"end":13994.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13994.367218750001,"end":13994.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13999.530968750001,"end":14000.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14000.88096875,"end":14003.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14003.024093750002,"end":14005.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14005.352843750003,"end":14009.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14008.06971875,"end":14016.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14016.33846875,"end":14016.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14016.50721875,"end":14032.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14028.555968750003,"end":14029.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14033.43284375,"end":14054.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14034.58034375,"end":14035.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14036.01471875,"end":14036.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14048.45159375,"end":14048.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14054.93159375,"end":14062.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14055.74159375,"end":14056.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14056.129718750002,"end":14056.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14056.21409375,"end":14056.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14056.31534375,"end":14057.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14058.964718750001,"end":14060.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14061.52971875,"end":14062.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14062.086593750002,"end":14062.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14062.559093750002,"end":14062.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14062.74471875,"end":14069.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14069.24159375,"end":14072.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14072.886593750001,"end":14076.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14077.965968750003,"end":14077.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14077.98284375,"end":14077.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14077.999718750001,"end":14078.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14078.489093750002,"end":14100.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14100.51096875,"end":14100.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14100.56159375,"end":14100.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14100.578468750002,"end":14104.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14101.65846875,"end":14101.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14104.898468750001,"end":14106.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14106.552218750003,"end":14108.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14108.374718750001,"end":14109.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14109.10034375,"end":14116.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14109.134093750003,"end":14109.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14113.04909375,"end":14113.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14114.179718750001,"end":14114.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14116.255343750003,"end":14116.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14116.27221875,"end":14117.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14117.504093750002,"end":14117.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14118.70221875,"end":14122.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14121.267218750003,"end":14121.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14122.02659375,"end":14122.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14122.06034375,"end":14131.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14130.902843750002,"end":14132.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14132.72534375,"end":14134.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14134.902218750001,"end":14162.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14162.965343750002,"end":14166.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14167.335968750001,"end":14171.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14168.36534375,"end":14168.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14168.449718750002,"end":14168.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14168.972843750002,"end":14169.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14170.289093750001,"end":14170.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14171.352218750002,"end":14171.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14172.16221875,"end":14172.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14172.837218750003,"end":14177.376593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14178.675968750002,"end":14182.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14182.439093750003,"end":14182.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14184.750968750002,"end":14194.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14194.53846875,"end":14195.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14195.348468750002,"end":14211.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14211.66659375,"end":14211.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14211.683468750001,"end":14217.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14217.640343750001,"end":14221.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14221.31909375,"end":14221.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14221.62284375,"end":14223.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14223.934718750003,"end":14225.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14223.968468750001,"end":14224.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14225.90909375,"end":14226.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14225.976593750001,"end":14226.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14227.157843750003,"end":14233.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14233.75596875,"end":14233.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14233.77284375,"end":14233.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14233.87409375,"end":14233.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14234.12721875,"end":14235.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14235.91596875,"end":14238.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14250.597218750001,"end":14252.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14252.655968750001,"end":14253.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14254.242218750001,"end":14255.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14256.824093750001,"end":14257.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14258.899718750003,"end":14259.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14262.96659375,"end":14263.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14263.55721875,"end":14263.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14263.72596875,"end":14264.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14264.77221875,"end":14310.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14310.689093750003,"end":14312.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14312.39346875,"end":14312.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14312.460968750001,"end":14324.189093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14324.324093750001,"end":14324.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14324.762843750003,"end":14325.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14325.032843750003,"end":14335.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14336.085968750001,"end":14338.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14338.75221875,"end":14340.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14340.827843750001,"end":14345.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14345.485343750002,"end":14360.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14361.077843750001,"end":14363.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14363.997218750003,"end":14365.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14365.988468750002,"end":14375.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14374.324718750002,"end":14381.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14375.910968750002,"end":14376.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14382.27284375,"end":14411.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14411.53409375,"end":14411.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14411.567843750003,"end":14425.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14426.164718750002,"end":14435.142218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14435.327843750001,"end":14442.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14442.516593750002,"end":14442.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14442.668468750002,"end":14445.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14446.110968750003,"end":14448.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14449.08096875,"end":14450.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14449.35096875,"end":14497.292843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14456.387843750003,"end":14456.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14497.292843750001,"end":14504.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14498.237843750001,"end":14499.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14501.309093750002,"end":14501.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14504.97096875,"end":14510.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14510.269718750002,"end":14534.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14535.109718750002,"end":14556.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14556.743468750003,"end":14558.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14559.24096875,"end":14564.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14563.965968750003,"end":14570.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14570.36159375,"end":14584.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14582.055968750003,"end":14615.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14615.35034375,"end":14618.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14618.99534375,"end":14622.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14622.809093750002,"end":14623.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14623.09596875,"end":14623.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14623.26471875,"end":14627.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14628.040343750003,"end":14636.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14633.71034375,"end":14635.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14636.882843750001,"end":14639.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14639.24534375,"end":14640.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14640.207218750002,"end":14641.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14640.66284375,"end":14640.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14642.55284375,"end":14648.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14643.66659375,"end":14645.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14647.21034375,"end":14650.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14649.84284375,"end":14650.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14650.51784375,"end":14650.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":14650.551593750002,"end":14650.720343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14650.720343750003,"end":14650.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14652.239093750002,"end":14655.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14667.679718750001,"end":14668.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14668.81034375,"end":14674.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14671.34159375,"end":14671.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14673.602843750003,"end":14674.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14674.530968750001,"end":14677.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14676.67409375,"end":14676.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14676.690968750001,"end":14676.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14676.927218750003,"end":14676.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14678.125343750002,"end":14681.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14678.344718750002,"end":14685.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14682.64784375,"end":14682.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14685.769718750002,"end":14690.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14686.664093750001,"end":14686.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14686.69784375,"end":14687.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14691.11909375,"end":14694.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14695.270343750002,"end":14698.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14698.45971875,"end":14700.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14700.77159375,"end":14701.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14701.969718750002,"end":14704.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14704.770968750003,"end":14707.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14708.230343750001,"end":14715.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14715.300968750002,"end":14717.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14717.39346875,"end":14720.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14721.66284375,"end":14733.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14733.15471875,"end":14733.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14733.981593750003,"end":14744.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14744.44409375,"end":14753.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14754.062843750002,"end":14759.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14759.68221875,"end":14760.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14761.724093750003,"end":14764.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14762.78721875,"end":14763.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14764.980968750002,"end":14767.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14768.457218750002,"end":14772.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14772.034718750001,"end":14772.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14772.152843750002,"end":14772.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14772.270968750003,"end":14772.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14772.473468750002,"end":14783.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14783.20596875,"end":14783.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14783.83034375,"end":14792.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14792.031593750002,"end":14797.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14797.38096875,"end":14802.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14802.055343750002,"end":14805.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14806.76346875,"end":14807.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14806.864718750003,"end":14807.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14807.742218750001,"end":14807.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14807.97846875,"end":14807.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14807.99534375,"end":14816.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14812.19721875,"end":14812.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14815.11659375,"end":14822.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14822.355968750002,"end":14824.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14825.359718750002,"end":14826.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14827.45221875,"end":14833.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14834.45534375,"end":14838.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14838.30284375,"end":14841.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14841.72846875,"end":14843.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14844.867218750001,"end":14847.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14848.17471875,"end":14853.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14853.574718750002,"end":14859.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14853.642218750003,"end":14853.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14859.480968750002,"end":14860.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14860.98284375,"end":14862.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14861.168468750002,"end":14861.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14861.92784375,"end":14862.923468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14862.94034375,"end":14863.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14863.24409375,"end":14866.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14866.399718750003,"end":14870.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14871.31034375,"end":14875.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14875.664093750001,"end":14880.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14881.671593750001,"end":14883.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14884.202843750001,"end":14885.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14887.61159375,"end":14888.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14888.219093750002,"end":14889.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14889.45096875,"end":14894.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14895.77909375,"end":14897.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14898.715343750002,"end":14898.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14898.968468750001,"end":14899.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14899.42409375,"end":14900.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14900.976593750001,"end":14901.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14901.786593750003,"end":14909.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14908.70534375,"end":14908.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14908.739093750002,"end":14910.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14909.39721875,"end":14909.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14910.08909375,"end":14913.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14910.207218750002,"end":14910.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14910.29159375,"end":14910.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14910.409718750001,"end":14910.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14910.51096875,"end":14910.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14910.527843750002,"end":14910.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14912.215343750002,"end":14912.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14912.24909375,"end":14912.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14912.535968750002,"end":14912.704718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14912.704718750003,"end":14912.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14914.054718750001,"end":14918.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14917.649093750002,"end":14920.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14920.93971875,"end":14929.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14926.15409375,"end":14926.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14929.191593750002,"end":14935.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14930.96346875,"end":14931.638468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14932.49909375,"end":14932.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14935.13159375,"end":14937.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14935.941593750002,"end":14948.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14948.597843750002,"end":14949.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14948.935343750003,"end":14951.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14951.939093750003,"end":14965.017218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14965.017218750003,"end":14965.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14966.417843750001,"end":14972.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14973.488468750002,"end":14974.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14974.973468750002,"end":14981.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14980.91346875,"end":14981.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14981.672843750002,"end":14981.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14981.68971875,"end":14981.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14981.706593750001,"end":14983.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":14983.664093750001,"end":14984.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14985.317843750003,"end":14987.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14987.798468750003,"end":14988.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14989.114718750003,"end":14992.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14993.687843750002,"end":14994.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14994.19409375,"end":14994.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14994.71721875,"end":14994.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14994.734093750001,"end":14995.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14995.965968750003,"end":14996.607218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":14997.88971875,"end":15004.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15032.027843750002,"end":15033.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15032.922218750002,"end":15033.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15033.141593750002,"end":15034.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15034.879718750002,"end":15036.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15040.887218750002,"end":15042.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15042.878468750001,"end":15042.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15042.91221875,"end":15046.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15043.469093750002,"end":15046.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15046.641593750002,"end":15046.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15046.675343750001,"end":15046.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15046.692218750002,"end":15046.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15047.08034375,"end":15047.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15047.097218750001,"end":15047.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15047.114093750002,"end":15047.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15047.13096875,"end":15047.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15047.232218750003,"end":15047.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15052.159718750001,"end":15054.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15054.640343750001,"end":15059.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15060.15846875,"end":15060.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15061.89659375,"end":15063.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15063.921593750001,"end":15065.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15065.659718750001,"end":15068.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15069.13596875,"end":15070.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15070.97534375,"end":15072.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15073.844093750002,"end":15075.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15075.548468750003,"end":15077.657843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15078.41721875,"end":15080.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15081.066593750002,"end":15082.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15083.597843750002,"end":15084.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15085.386593750001,"end":15087.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15086.83784375,"end":15087.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15087.74909375,"end":15098.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15099.08909375,"end":15103.814093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15103.83096875,"end":15110.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15108.57284375,"end":15112.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15112.133468750002,"end":15117.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15118.37721875,"end":15119.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15120.216593750003,"end":15120.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15121.094093750002,"end":15123.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15124.536593750003,"end":15125.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15126.24096875,"end":15128.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15130.03784375,"end":15130.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15130.645343750002,"end":15131.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15131.607218750003,"end":15132.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15132.636593750001,"end":15134.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15135.77534375,"end":15138.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15138.52596875,"end":15140.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15141.25971875,"end":15146.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15149.562218750001,"end":15149.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15149.91659375,"end":15157.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15149.950343750003,"end":15150.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15152.329718750003,"end":15162.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15162.876593750003,"end":15166.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15166.74096875,"end":15167.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15168.664718750002,"end":15169.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15170.099093750003,"end":15172.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15173.828468750002,"end":15176.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15177.794093750003,"end":15181.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15180.899093750002,"end":15183.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15182.35034375,"end":15183.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15183.66659375,"end":15189.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15189.47159375,"end":15192.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15193.47096875,"end":15194.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15194.43284375,"end":15194.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15194.85471875,"end":15196.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15198.16221875,"end":15199.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15200.085968750001,"end":15201.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15202.12784375,"end":15203.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15203.39346875,"end":15204.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15204.96284375,"end":15206.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15207.02159375,"end":15209.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15209.839718750001,"end":15212.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15213.36659375,"end":15214.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15215.391593750002,"end":15217.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15218.05784375,"end":15219.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15221.68596875,"end":15224.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15225.415343750003,"end":15227.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15227.659718750001,"end":15229.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15229.617218750001,"end":15231.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15231.996593750002,"end":15232.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15233.262218750002,"end":15234.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15235.388468750003,"end":15236.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15236.805968750003,"end":15239.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15239.792843750001,"end":15241.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15242.982218750003,"end":15244.298468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15244.93971875,"end":15245.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15246.20534375,"end":15250.727843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15253.461593750002,"end":15253.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15254.305343750002,"end":15255.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15256.262843750003,"end":15256.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15257.410343750002,"end":15258.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15259.08096875,"end":15261.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15261.679718750001,"end":15263.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15264.39659375,"end":15266.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15267.56909375,"end":15268.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15269.15534375,"end":15270.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15271.011593750001,"end":15272.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15272.985968750003,"end":15273.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15274.36971875,"end":15274.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15274.386593750001,"end":15276.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15277.05284375,"end":15277.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15277.06971875,"end":15278.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15277.238468750002,"end":15277.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15278.31846875,"end":15280.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15281.153468750003,"end":15282.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15282.97596875,"end":15284.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15285.70971875,"end":15286.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15286.70534375,"end":15288.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15288.645968750003,"end":15289.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15290.215343750002,"end":15294.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15294.383468750002,"end":15297.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15297.927218750003,"end":15299.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15300.019718750002,"end":15309.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15307.74846875,"end":15309.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15310.296593750001,"end":15311.798468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15312.321593750003,"end":15313.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15314.61659375,"end":15315.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15317.839718750001,"end":15318.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15319.35846875,"end":15327.407843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15320.337218750003,"end":15320.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15327.89721875,"end":15329.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15329.989718750003,"end":15332.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15334.191593750002,"end":15336.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15338.325968750003,"end":15338.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15339.220343750003,"end":15341.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15342.527843750002,"end":15355.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15347.759093750003,"end":15348.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15348.14721875,"end":15348.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15348.180968750003,"end":15348.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15348.34971875,"end":15348.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15348.56909375,"end":15348.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15348.923468750003,"end":15349.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15351.79221875,"end":15363.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15356.567843750003,"end":15356.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15363.53721875,"end":15363.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15363.70596875,"end":15368.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15363.85784375,"end":15369.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15369.004718750002,"end":15373.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15373.577843750001,"end":15375.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15375.974093750003,"end":15377.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15377.847218750001,"end":15381.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15382.015343750001,"end":15383.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15384.74909375,"end":15386.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15386.68971875,"end":15387.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15388.96784375,"end":15389.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15390.317843750003,"end":15391.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15392.477843750003,"end":15393.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15393.60846875,"end":15394.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15395.059718750003,"end":15396.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15397.03409375,"end":15397.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15398.012843750003,"end":15400.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15400.493468750003,"end":15400.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15401.286593750003,"end":15403.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15403.68284375,"end":15404.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15405.015968750002,"end":15406.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15407.327843750001,"end":15409.200968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15409.57221875,"end":15411.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15412.339718750001,"end":15413.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15414.16221875,"end":15417.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15418.515968750002,"end":15419.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15420.152843750002,"end":15420.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15421.620968750001,"end":15424.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15425.063468750002,"end":15425.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15425.907218750002,"end":15426.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15427.88159375,"end":15430.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15430.24409375,"end":15431.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15431.99909375,"end":15437.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15437.922218750002,"end":15441.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15443.32221875,"end":15444.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15445.22909375,"end":15446.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15446.781593750002,"end":15450.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15451.18596875,"end":15452.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15452.62034375,"end":15454.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15455.421593750001,"end":15458.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15459.20159375,"end":15461.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15462.37409375,"end":15468.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15469.86659375,"end":15475.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15476.160968750002,"end":15477.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15477.66284375,"end":15479.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15480.04221875,"end":15481.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15482.067218750002,"end":15485.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15482.691593750002,"end":15482.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15483.805343750002,"end":15483.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15483.83909375,"end":15484.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15484.379093750002,"end":15484.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15486.30284375,"end":15488.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15486.404093750003,"end":15487.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15489.357218750003,"end":15498.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15491.095343750003,"end":15491.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15491.145968750003,"end":15491.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15492.74909375,"end":15494.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15498.098468750002,"end":15498.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15498.38534375,"end":15499.954718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15498.402218750001,"end":15498.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15499.49909375,"end":15508.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15500.410343750002,"end":15500.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15509.03346875,"end":15514.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15514.349093750003,"end":15518.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15517.977218750002,"end":15519.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15519.63096875,"end":15522.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15519.68159375,"end":15520.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15521.622218750003,"end":15523.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15523.96784375,"end":15533.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15528.321593750003,"end":15528.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15528.92909375,"end":15532.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15534.784718750001,"end":15536.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15535.71284375,"end":15540.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15540.15096875,"end":15546.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15541.129718750002,"end":15542.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15546.546593750001,"end":15551.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15552.638468750003,"end":15557.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15557.464718750001,"end":15563.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15563.640968750002,"end":15563.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15564.704093750002,"end":15566.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15566.425343750001,"end":15567.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15567.927218750003,"end":15576.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15568.652843750002,"end":15568.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15576.364718750003,"end":15577.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15578.11971875,"end":15583.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15584.02596875,"end":15585.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15585.274718750003,"end":15585.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15585.848468750002,"end":15593.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15593.492843750002,"end":15594.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15595.922843750002,"end":15598.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15597.070343750001,"end":15597.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15598.555343750002,"end":15599.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15600.20909375,"end":15601.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15601.997843750003,"end":15606.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15606.18284375,"end":15611.751593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15611.751593750003,"end":15612.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15612.831593750001,"end":15612.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15612.86534375,"end":15616.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15615.46409375,"end":15617.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15618.24846875,"end":15626.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15621.235343750002,"end":15623.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15624.72846875,"end":15628.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15629.38596875,"end":15639.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15640.422218750002,"end":15642.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15643.223468750002,"end":15645.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15646.83471875,"end":15648.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15648.74159375,"end":15650.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15651.441593750002,"end":15655.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15653.348468750002,"end":15655.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15655.862843750001,"end":15658.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15658.69784375,"end":15660.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15660.11534375,"end":15660.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15661.364093750002,"end":15668.282843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15667.860968750003,"end":15668.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15668.485343750002,"end":15670.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15669.261593750001,"end":15682.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15682.289093750001,"end":15682.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15682.609718750002,"end":15686.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15682.761593750001,"end":15683.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15687.081593750001,"end":15697.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15698.185343750003,"end":15706.622843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15702.37034375,"end":15720.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15720.004718750002,"end":15725.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":15725.472218750001,"end":15725.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15725.52284375,"end":15725.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15725.759093750003,"end":15728.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15725.77596875,"end":15725.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15728.982218750003,"end":15731.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15732.42471875,"end":15733.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15733.977218750002,"end":15800.414093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15801.24096875,"end":15806.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15835.63221875,"end":15839.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15839.969093750002,"end":15840.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15840.036593750003,"end":15840.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15840.964718750001,"end":15841.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15841.032218750002,"end":15842.466593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15842.466593750003,"end":15842.517218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15842.719718750002,"end":15843.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15845.01471875,"end":15845.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15847.664093750001,"end":15848.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15849.317843750003,"end":15850.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15850.667843750001,"end":15859.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15859.915343750003,"end":15871.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15871.339718750001,"end":15879.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15879.96284375,"end":15880.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15880.097843750002,"end":15895.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15895.032218750002,"end":15903.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15903.97596875,"end":15904.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15904.634093750003,"end":15904.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15904.65096875,"end":15906.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15906.473468750002,"end":15950.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15950.517218750003,"end":15953.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15953.031593750002,"end":15953.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":15953.976593750001,"end":15953.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15953.993468750003,"end":15954.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15954.550343750001,"end":15967.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15967.965968750003,"end":15972.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15973.21409375,"end":15990.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15990.03846875,"end":15993.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":15993.970343750003,"end":15997.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":15997.024718750003,"end":16006.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16007.048468750003,"end":16008.735968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16008.735968750003,"end":16008.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16008.837218750003,"end":16013.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16013.427218750003,"end":16020.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16021.03784375,"end":16035.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16035.027218750001,"end":16041.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16042.23284375,"end":16044.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16045.000343750002,"end":16047.497843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16047.953468750002,"end":16057.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16057.977218750002,"end":16062.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16062.297218750002,"end":16062.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16063.360343750002,"end":16069.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16069.637843750003,"end":16090.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16090.461593750002,"end":16098.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16098.949718750002,"end":16104.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16099.067843750003,"end":16099.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16099.253468750001,"end":16099.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16100.50221875,"end":16100.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16100.60346875,"end":16100.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16100.637218750002,"end":16100.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16104.855968750002,"end":16129.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16109.918468750002,"end":16110.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16111.774718750003,"end":16113.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16113.985343750002,"end":16117.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16117.02284375,"end":16117.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16117.815968750001,"end":16117.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16129.29096875,"end":16129.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16129.56096875,"end":16135.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16135.720343750003,"end":16155.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16155.02534375,"end":16163.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16155.582218750002,"end":16155.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16161.218468750001,"end":16161.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16163.969093750002,"end":16171.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16165.04909375,"end":16166.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16172.676593750002,"end":16174.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16174.887218750002,"end":16175.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16175.96721875,"end":16202.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16179.325343750003,"end":16181.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16181.60346875,"end":16182.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16182.632843750001,"end":16182.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16203.000968750002,"end":16207.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16208.384093750003,"end":16209.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16210.071593750003,"end":16216.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":16216.450343750003,"end":16216.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16216.51784375,"end":16216.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":16216.551593750002,"end":16216.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16216.669718750003,"end":16222.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16223.38596875,"end":16224.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16224.53346875,"end":16242.876593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16231.28346875,"end":16232.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16242.977843750003,"end":16245.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16245.05346875,"end":16245.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16245.660968750002,"end":16255.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16255.313468750002,"end":16260.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16260.780968750001,"end":16262.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16262.367218750001,"end":16271.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16272.644093750001,"end":16276.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16289.097218750001,"end":16291.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16291.425968750002,"end":16292.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16296.555968750003,"end":16297.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16297.73721875,"end":16345.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16345.274093750002,"end":16346.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16346.269718750002,"end":16348.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16348.93596875,"end":16351.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16352.024093750002,"end":16356.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16356.293468750002,"end":16369.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16364.59596875,"end":16367.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16369.72596875,"end":16375.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16375.716593750003,"end":16385.639093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16385.875343749998,"end":16390.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16391.19096875,"end":16396.523468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16393.08096875,"end":16393.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16395.122843750003,"end":16395.662843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16395.662843750004,"end":16395.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16396.523468749998,"end":16396.827218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16396.74284375,"end":16402.193468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16402.412843750004,"end":16403.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16404.083468750003,"end":16411.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16410.732218750003,"end":16447.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16414.208468750003,"end":16415.929718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16415.929718749998,"end":16415.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16426.763468750003,"end":16427.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16427.03346875,"end":16427.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16427.067218750002,"end":16427.505968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16427.505968750003,"end":16427.522843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16427.522843749997,"end":16427.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16427.53971875,"end":16428.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":16428.21471875,"end":16428.248468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16430.32409375,"end":16430.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16430.340968750003,"end":16431.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16431.97784375,"end":16432.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16432.973468750002,"end":16433.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16433.969093749998,"end":16434.576593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16435.605968750002,"end":16436.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16436.027843750002,"end":16436.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16436.53409375,"end":16436.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16436.567843750003,"end":16436.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16436.63534375,"end":16436.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16436.65221875,"end":16438.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16438.035968750002,"end":16439.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16439.35221875,"end":16439.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16439.36909375,"end":16439.419718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16439.419718750003,"end":16439.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16447.755968750003,"end":16450.810343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16452.22784375,"end":16457.138468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16457.543468750002,"end":16465.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16465.913468749997,"end":16468.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16469.153468750003,"end":16479.717218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16479.97034375,"end":16481.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16482.450968750003,"end":16531.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16532.18159375,"end":16550.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16537.58159375,"end":16538.138468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16551.334718750004,"end":16560.194093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16551.520343750002,"end":16551.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16554.43971875,"end":16554.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16560.68346875,"end":16561.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16562.219093749998,"end":16571.078468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16571.53409375,"end":16583.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16580.629718750002,"end":16580.646593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16580.646593750003,"end":16581.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16583.53221875,"end":16584.122843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16584.40971875,"end":16585.607843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16585.74284375,"end":16591.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16591.98659375,"end":16654.795343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16598.55096875,"end":16599.951593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16599.951593750004,"end":16599.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16605.72284375,"end":16606.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16608.42284375,"end":16609.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":16610.22846875,"end":16612.827218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16621.19721875,"end":16621.281593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16621.281593749998,"end":16621.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16621.669718750003,"end":16622.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16622.02409375,"end":16622.226593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16622.226593749998,"end":16622.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16622.98596875,"end":16623.390968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16626.17534375,"end":16626.225968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16626.225968749997,"end":16626.445343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16626.445343749998,"end":16628.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16628.67284375,"end":16630.022843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16632.250343749998,"end":16632.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16632.28409375,"end":16633.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16638.83159375,"end":16638.865343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16639.270343750002,"end":16640.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16642.17284375,"end":16642.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16642.20659375,"end":16642.358468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16642.358468749997,"end":16642.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16655.318468750003,"end":16672.834718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16673.32409375,"end":16677.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16677.40784375,"end":16677.677843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16677.62721875,"end":16678.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16678.67346875,"end":16696.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16694.367218749998,"end":16694.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16695.88596875,"end":16695.919718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16695.919718750003,"end":16696.240343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16697.25284375,"end":16698.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16697.26971875,"end":16698.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16699.311593749997,"end":16699.328468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16699.328468749998,"end":16707.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":16700.08784375,"end":16701.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16704.22221875,"end":16704.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16704.239093750002,"end":16705.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16706.82096875,"end":16706.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16706.871593750002,"end":16707.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16707.27659375,"end":16707.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16707.411593750003,"end":16707.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":16707.66471875,"end":16707.732218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16708.356593750003,"end":16726.750343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16710.83721875,"end":16710.904718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16710.904718750004,"end":16710.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16710.93846875,"end":16710.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16710.95534375,"end":16710.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16726.90221875,"end":16727.459093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16727.81346875,"end":16776.194093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":16731.94784375,"end":16732.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16740.115343750003,"end":16741.819718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16743.405968749998,"end":16743.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16745.717843749997,"end":16746.359093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16746.39284375,"end":16746.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16746.561593749997,"end":16747.084718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16748.80596875,"end":16748.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":16748.83971875,"end":16749.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16749.36284375,"end":16749.396593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16758.32346875,"end":16759.015343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16763.80784375,"end":16764.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":16764.97221875,"end":16765.967843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":16765.967843749997,"end":16767.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16771.249718749998,"end":16773.460343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16773.51096875,"end":16774.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":16774.64159375,"end":16775.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16777.037843750004,"end":16787.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16788.344093749998,"end":16820.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":16820.271593750003,"end":16822.296593749998}],"whisperx":[]}},{"id":"16513","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16513","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd6d254b92567b84cead9f551ce5fa921f7a524d1b3d409a1a3fc4e544e687d97e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【如本院改為加開院會，則本次會議取消，不另行通知。】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-13T08:30:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:36:00+08:00","duration":14745,"影片長度":"04:05:45","委員發言時間":"08:30:15 - 12:36:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2089.8815937500003,"end":2093.6784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2094.5897187500004,"end":2097.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2097.74534375,"end":2098.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2100.10784375,"end":2103.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2105.0184687500005,"end":2124.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2111.24534375,"end":2111.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2111.26221875,"end":2112.0553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2112.0553437500002,"end":2112.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2112.40971875,"end":2112.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2112.57846875,"end":2112.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2112.9665937500004,"end":2113.2872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2125.1503437500005,"end":2135.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2136.15284375,"end":2137.2497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2139.08909375,"end":2141.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2143.12221875,"end":2143.4597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2143.4765937500006,"end":2143.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2143.56096875,"end":2147.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2147.66159375,"end":2148.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2148.55596875,"end":2152.2009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2155.37346875,"end":2155.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2157.66846875,"end":2158.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2159.9297187500006,"end":2160.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2160.90846875,"end":2162.9840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2163.9628437500005,"end":2164.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2165.8359687500006,"end":2170.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2171.57346875,"end":2172.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2173.4803437500004,"end":2176.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2176.93971875,"end":2177.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2179.77471875,"end":2183.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2186.7272187500002,"end":2188.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2188.68471875,"end":2190.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2193.3590937500003,"end":2195.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2199.53534375,"end":2202.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2205.39096875,"end":2208.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2211.2803437500006,"end":2214.1659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2217.37221875,"end":2219.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2222.5359687500004,"end":2224.6959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2227.68284375,"end":2229.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2233.0322187500005,"end":2236.0528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2238.85409375,"end":2241.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2244.7097187500003,"end":2247.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2250.24471875,"end":2254.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2257.46721875,"end":2258.6484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2259.2559687500006,"end":2260.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2264.6728437500005,"end":2266.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2267.9128437500003,"end":2270.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2273.8865937500004,"end":2278.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2282.1553437500006,"end":2286.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2290.06971875,"end":2293.6472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2294.0690937500003,"end":2294.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2295.13221875,"end":2295.7734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2300.61659375,"end":2301.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":2303.85659375,"end":2309.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2319.46596875,"end":2330.2490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2330.5528437500006,"end":2331.0928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2332.72971875,"end":2335.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2337.2184687500003,"end":2361.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2363.89784375,"end":2403.1153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2405.00534375,"end":2411.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2413.3415937500004,"end":2478.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2480.28471875,"end":2507.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2507.80784375,"end":2546.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2548.98284375,"end":2613.2597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2615.47034375,"end":2616.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2616.55034375,"end":2665.4372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2667.36096875,"end":2698.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2700.25034375,"end":2707.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2709.58221875,"end":2769.7753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2771.8172187500004,"end":2780.5753437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2780.82846875,"end":2813.2790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2814.83159375,"end":2839.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2839.3678437500002,"end":2845.3584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2847.2653437500003,"end":2884.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2886.22971875,"end":2949.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2951.45159375,"end":2966.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2967.4490937500004,"end":2982.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2984.23971875,"end":2987.8340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2987.96909375,"end":2990.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2991.1247187500003,"end":2991.6140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2992.79534375,"end":3066.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3069.27284375,"end":3094.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3096.7284687500005,"end":3137.9372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3139.5909687500007,"end":3205.9265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3207.0065937500003,"end":3227.2734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3232.0322187500005,"end":3233.0615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3233.1290937500007,"end":3234.3947187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3234.8503437500003,"end":3241.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3242.2584687500002,"end":3243.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3244.95846875,"end":3248.8565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3249.3290937500005,"end":3256.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3257.61471875,"end":3258.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3259.16721875,"end":3262.9978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3263.1834687500004,"end":3276.1603437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3277.5778437500003,"end":3277.8815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3279.8897187500006,"end":3282.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3283.3828437500006,"end":3288.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3289.54221875,"end":3292.4615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3293.76096875,"end":3299.0597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3299.80221875,"end":3302.4684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3303.4303437500002,"end":3305.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3306.61971875,"end":3310.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3319.74846875,"end":3321.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3322.8365937500002,"end":3322.9040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3322.9040937500004,"end":3322.9884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3322.9884687500007,"end":3323.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3323.00534375,"end":3323.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3323.0390937500006,"end":3323.4609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3328.86096875,"end":3338.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3338.5303437500006,"end":3352.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3353.6334687500002,"end":3354.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3354.64596875,"end":3355.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3355.96221875,"end":3359.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3359.70846875,"end":3379.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3380.12721875,"end":3382.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3383.3165937500007,"end":3383.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3384.2109687500006,"end":3384.7003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3384.95346875,"end":3385.4597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3386.1178437500002,"end":3387.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3387.61971875,"end":3388.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3388.81784375,"end":3393.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3393.22221875,"end":3398.6559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3398.7403437500006,"end":3401.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3402.5372187500006,"end":3411.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3413.05034375,"end":3413.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3414.19784375,"end":3422.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3422.7197187500005,"end":3436.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3436.6922187500004,"end":3449.8209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3449.8209687500002,"end":3468.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3467.45534375,"end":3467.7928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3468.0290937500004,"end":3468.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3468.4509687500004,"end":3468.5353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3468.5353437500007,"end":3468.6365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3468.6365937500004,"end":3468.7715937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3468.7715937500006,"end":3469.7334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3468.8053437500002,"end":3469.8009687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3469.8009687500007,"end":3469.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3469.9697187500005,"end":3470.0203437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3470.0203437500004,"end":3470.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3470.29034375,"end":3470.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3470.30721875,"end":3484.1953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3470.4590937500006,"end":3470.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3476.1122187500005,"end":3476.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3476.1628437500003,"end":3476.1797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3484.1953437500006,"end":3484.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3484.7353437500005,"end":3485.0222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3485.0222187500003,"end":3498.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3498.85971875,"end":3503.9728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3503.9728437500007,"end":3519.4472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3505.4072187500005,"end":3505.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3505.54221875,"end":3505.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3505.5928437500006,"end":3505.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3505.96409375,"end":3506.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3506.26784375,"end":3506.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3516.2409687500003,"end":3517.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3519.4472187500005,"end":3525.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3525.6572187500005,"end":3525.7247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3525.7247187500006,"end":3525.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3525.97784375,"end":3526.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3526.0115937500004,"end":3526.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3526.6865937500006,"end":3526.9903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3526.9903437500006,"end":3527.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3527.37846875,"end":3528.4415937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3528.4415937500007,"end":3528.7115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3528.7115937500002,"end":3528.9815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3528.9815937500007,"end":3529.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3529.0322187500005,"end":3541.2159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3541.3678437500002,"end":3551.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3551.0878437500005,"end":3551.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3551.30721875,"end":3560.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3560.6053437500004,"end":3566.2247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3566.2247187500006,"end":3566.4440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3566.4440937500003,"end":3566.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3566.5115937500004,"end":3567.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3566.5790937500005,"end":3585.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3585.7322187500004,"end":3590.7272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3590.82846875,"end":3606.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3606.03284375,"end":3618.9422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3620.2078437500004,"end":3622.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3623.2790937500004,"end":3624.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3624.3253437500007,"end":3629.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3629.03346875,"end":3631.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3631.9022187500004,"end":3639.4284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3640.18784375,"end":3640.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3640.20471875,"end":3640.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3640.96409375,"end":3644.7272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3645.0984687500004,"end":3663.0703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3655.9490937500004,"end":3655.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3655.98284375,"end":3656.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3656.45534375,"end":3656.4890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3663.4753437500003,"end":3663.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3663.4922187500006,"end":3665.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3663.9647187500004,"end":3664.0828437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3665.2809687500003,"end":3665.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3665.33159375,"end":3665.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3665.38221875,"end":3665.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3665.63534375,"end":3669.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3670.57971875,"end":3675.3722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3676.8065937500005,"end":3682.7128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3683.40471875,"end":3684.5859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3685.9022187500004,"end":3688.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3689.0915937500004,"end":3692.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3692.50034375,"end":3694.8797187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3696.55034375,"end":3698.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3698.96346875,"end":3709.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3709.0378437500003,"end":3718.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3710.40471875,"end":3710.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3710.64096875,"end":3710.6915937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3718.8590937500003,"end":3728.6297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3727.76909375,"end":3727.8534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3728.8828437500006,"end":3729.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3729.4228437500005,"end":3729.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3729.50721875,"end":3742.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3742.7878437500003,"end":3764.7422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3764.3709687500004,"end":3774.6815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3766.27784375,"end":3766.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3775.5253437500005,"end":3776.2003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3776.2003437500007,"end":3778.0734687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3778.7147187500004,"end":3781.9040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3782.1065937500007,"end":3788.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3790.1053437500004,"end":3791.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3792.50159375,"end":3796.2647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3796.5515937500004,"end":3797.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3797.7665937500005,"end":3798.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3799.9772187500002,"end":3812.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3800.3653437500006,"end":3800.6522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3811.5028437500005,"end":3816.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3816.97034375,"end":3817.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3817.18971875,"end":3825.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3826.53846875,"end":3826.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3826.96034375,"end":3838.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3837.57471875,"end":3839.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3839.49846875,"end":3840.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3840.64596875,"end":3841.3209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3841.84409375,"end":3842.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3843.22784375,"end":3844.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3844.81409375,"end":3845.3878437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3846.1134687500007,"end":3861.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3861.85784375,"end":3868.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3866.8190937500003,"end":3869.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3869.08034375,"end":3869.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3869.4684687500003,"end":3877.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3869.6709687500006,"end":3869.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3876.8428437500006,"end":3884.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3883.8965937500006,"end":3884.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3884.47034375,"end":3884.6222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3884.7403437500006,"end":3884.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3884.7740937500002,"end":3885.0440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3884.8584687500006,"end":3885.6515937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3885.9384687500005,"end":3886.1240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3886.1240937500006,"end":3898.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3898.61159375,"end":3912.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3913.3603437500005,"end":3913.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3915.01409375,"end":3915.6047187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3915.90846875,"end":3916.7859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3917.49471875,"end":3923.0128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3923.38409375,"end":3926.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3927.31596875,"end":3929.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3930.20159375,"end":3947.4815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3947.4815937500007,"end":3955.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3956.2228437500007,"end":3960.7453437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3960.8972187500003,"end":3984.7753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3985.3153437500005,"end":3994.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3995.11971875,"end":3997.5665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3998.12346875,"end":3998.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3998.49471875,"end":3999.0684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3998.6297187500004,"end":3998.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3999.3722187500007,"end":4000.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4000.77284375,"end":4005.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4006.3415937500004,"end":4006.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4007.6915937500007,"end":4009.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4010.5265937500008,"end":4010.8809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4011.25221875,"end":4012.1297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4012.9228437500005,"end":4017.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4018.1203437500008,"end":4019.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4020.0947187500005,"end":4028.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4029.52784375,"end":4038.1172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4038.1847187500007,"end":4039.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4039.09596875,"end":4039.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4039.16346875,"end":4039.1972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4039.1972187500005,"end":4039.2478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4039.2478437500004,"end":4039.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4039.3153437500005,"end":4039.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4039.6865937500006,"end":4041.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4040.9353437500004,"end":4044.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4045.1203437500008,"end":4045.9640937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4045.9640937500008,"end":4046.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4046.03159375,"end":4046.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4046.0653437500005,"end":4046.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4046.21721875,"end":4046.3015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4046.3015937500004,"end":4060.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4060.8478437500007,"end":4067.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4067.31096875,"end":4079.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4077.3347187500003,"end":4088.1515937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4080.1697187500004,"end":4084.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4088.6240937500006,"end":4094.2940937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4095.57659375,"end":4095.5934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4095.5934687500003,"end":4096.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4096.0322187500005,"end":4096.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4096.724093750001,"end":4097.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4096.74096875,"end":4098.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4099.10346875,"end":4100.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4100.6053437499995,"end":4102.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4100.87534375,"end":4101.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4102.03971875,"end":4102.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4102.2928437499995,"end":4104.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4103.5584687499995,"end":4114.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4108.857218749999,"end":4110.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4115.26971875,"end":4125.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4125.9853437500005,"end":4127.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4127.757218750001,"end":4130.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4130.69346875,"end":4141.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4134.557843750001,"end":4136.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4136.86971875,"end":4136.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4137.44346875,"end":4138.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4140.177218750001,"end":4144.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4142.45534375,"end":4144.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4144.9697187500005,"end":4145.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4145.03721875,"end":4145.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4145.239718750001,"end":4145.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4145.374718749999,"end":4146.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4146.38721875,"end":4150.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4146.43784375,"end":4146.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4146.4715937500005,"end":4146.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4151.010968750001,"end":4155.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4155.34784375,"end":4156.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4156.56284375,"end":4157.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4157.87909375,"end":4158.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4159.583468750001,"end":4160.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4160.714093750001,"end":4164.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4164.510968750001,"end":4167.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4168.679093750001,"end":4171.4803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4171.61534375,"end":4172.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4173.454718749999,"end":4177.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4177.97721875,"end":4178.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4178.34846875,"end":4178.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4178.97284375,"end":4188.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4186.397843750001,"end":4207.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4207.727843750001,"end":4210.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4210.51221875,"end":4211.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4211.96346875,"end":4212.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4212.233468750001,"end":4212.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4213.38096875,"end":4217.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4225.04159375,"end":4225.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4226.3915937500005,"end":4230.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4230.795968750001,"end":4232.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4232.280968749999,"end":4232.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4233.597218749999,"end":4236.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4245.409718749999,"end":4249.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4250.607218749999,"end":4254.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4255.3153437500005,"end":4257.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4258.28534375,"end":4261.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4262.099093750001,"end":4263.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4264.32659375,"end":4271.751593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4272.34221875,"end":4273.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4273.33784375,"end":4274.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4274.519093749999,"end":4276.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4276.74659375,"end":4278.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4278.9403437500005,"end":4280.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4281.420968750001,"end":4282.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4283.2772187499995,"end":4283.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4284.1209687499995,"end":4286.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4287.597218749999,"end":4288.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4288.677218750001,"end":4292.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4292.40659375,"end":4294.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4295.27534375,"end":4295.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4296.2372187500005,"end":4297.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4297.857218749999,"end":4301.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4302.61596875,"end":4304.843468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4305.889718750001,"end":4308.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4308.825968749999,"end":4311.407843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4311.71159375,"end":4322.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4323.034718749999,"end":4334.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4334.35784375,"end":4334.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4335.01596875,"end":4335.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4335.0497187500005,"end":4335.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4336.0790937500005,"end":4337.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4338.25596875,"end":4338.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4338.272843750001,"end":4338.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4338.34034375,"end":4338.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4338.81284375,"end":4338.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4343.82471875,"end":4345.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4345.917218750001,"end":4346.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4347.43596875,"end":4349.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4350.25409375,"end":4352.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4353.10596875,"end":4354.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4354.860968749999,"end":4356.126593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4357.020968750001,"end":4358.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4358.607218749999,"end":4360.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4360.733468750001,"end":4361.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4362.20159375,"end":4363.720343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4364.057843750001,"end":4366.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4366.622843749999,"end":4367.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4367.567843750001,"end":4368.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4369.305968750001,"end":4373.845343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4374.503468749999,"end":4374.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4375.27971875,"end":4378.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4379.26221875,"end":4380.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4381.18596875,"end":4384.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4384.965968750001,"end":4384.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4385.387843750001,"end":4393.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4393.774718750001,"end":4404.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4405.485968749999,"end":4409.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4410.3290937500005,"end":4411.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4411.84784375,"end":4415.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4415.897843750001,"end":4419.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4420.487843749999,"end":4429.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4429.33034375,"end":4430.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4430.477843750001,"end":4440.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4440.2147187499995,"end":4441.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4442.67846875,"end":4443.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4443.48846875,"end":4452.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4453.46159375,"end":4456.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4456.870343750001,"end":4458.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4458.929093750001,"end":4463.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4463.02971875,"end":4472.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4472.192843750001,"end":4472.800343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4472.20971875,"end":4472.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4472.800343749999,"end":4472.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4472.850968750001,"end":4473.407843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4473.407843749999,"end":4475.145968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4474.60596875,"end":4475.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4475.17971875,"end":4475.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4475.196593750001,"end":4475.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4475.247218750001,"end":4475.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4475.280968749999,"end":4475.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4475.36534375,"end":4493.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4493.50596875,"end":4511.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4493.53971875,"end":4493.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4511.764718750001,"end":4554.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4517.18159375,"end":4517.519093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4546.24034375,"end":4546.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4554.357218749999,"end":4554.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4554.39096875,"end":4554.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4554.5428437499995,"end":4561.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4561.51221875,"end":4564.769093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4564.80284375,"end":4569.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4569.747218750001,"end":4591.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4592.849093750001,"end":4635.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4635.036593750001,"end":4635.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4635.5428437499995,"end":4635.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4635.5428437499995,"end":4635.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4635.779093749999,"end":4635.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4635.930968750001,"end":4635.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4635.9647187499995,"end":4660.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4660.65284375,"end":4665.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4665.00659375,"end":4665.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4665.647843750001,"end":4665.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4665.76596875,"end":4666.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4666.862843749999,"end":4683.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4684.716593749999,"end":4693.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4693.204718749999,"end":4698.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4698.57096875,"end":4700.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4700.714093750001,"end":4706.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4703.717843750001,"end":4703.802218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4704.10596875,"end":4704.173468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4706.40096875,"end":4710.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4711.51409375,"end":4724.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4725.48659375,"end":4728.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4728.6590937500005,"end":4729.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4729.958468750001,"end":4733.704718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4733.97471875,"end":4745.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4746.0740937499995,"end":4747.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4747.575968749999,"end":4748.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4748.520968750001,"end":4750.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4751.03534375,"end":4755.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4755.70971875,"end":4764.923468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4764.923468749999,"end":4790.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4790.97846875,"end":4813.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4813.388468749999,"end":4813.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4813.65846875,"end":4841.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4833.85784375,"end":4834.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4834.98846875,"end":4835.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4836.54096875,"end":4836.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4836.57471875,"end":4837.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4841.95784375,"end":4843.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4843.69596875,"end":4844.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4845.19784375,"end":4845.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4846.27784375,"end":4849.062218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4849.70346875,"end":4851.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4852.589093750001,"end":4861.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4861.718468749999,"end":4864.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4864.823468750001,"end":4878.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4879.09971875,"end":4910.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4910.6053437499995,"end":4918.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4912.343468749999,"end":4912.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4912.967843750001,"end":4913.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4913.06909375,"end":4913.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4918.030343750001,"end":4924.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4918.300343750001,"end":4918.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4924.965968750001,"end":4931.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4931.850968750001,"end":4933.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4933.960343750001,"end":4939.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4939.917218750001,"end":4948.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4948.97909375,"end":4953.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4953.24846875,"end":4959.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4960.18409375,"end":4960.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4961.517218749999,"end":4962.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4961.989718750001,"end":4963.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4964.200343750001,"end":4964.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4965.06096875,"end":4989.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4990.390343749999,"end":4998.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4998.62534375,"end":5002.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5002.9959687499995,"end":5014.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5014.47096875,"end":5023.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5014.55534375,"end":5015.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5015.02784375,"end":5015.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5015.989718750001,"end":5016.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5023.954718749999,"end":5026.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5026.9247187500005,"end":5026.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5026.958468750001,"end":5028.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5036.003468750001,"end":5044.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5044.913468750001,"end":5047.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5055.966593749999,"end":5059.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5060.32034375,"end":5060.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5067.087218750001,"end":5068.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5068.31909375,"end":5087.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5068.36971875,"end":5068.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5087.708468750001,"end":5091.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5091.792218750001,"end":5095.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5095.28534375,"end":5095.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5096.247218750001,"end":5099.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5096.280968749999,"end":5096.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5099.6728437500005,"end":5100.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5101.731593750001,"end":5106.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5106.76034375,"end":5107.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5108.515343749999,"end":5109.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5109.595343749999,"end":5112.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5113.51034375,"end":5114.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5115.38346875,"end":5116.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5116.7840937500005,"end":5118.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5119.214093750001,"end":5120.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5121.47534375,"end":5122.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5123.02784375,"end":5126.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5127.19596875,"end":5131.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5132.17409375,"end":5142.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5143.17659375,"end":5150.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5151.175343750001,"end":5153.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5153.571593750001,"end":5159.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5159.612843750001,"end":5164.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5165.147843750001,"end":5167.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5168.16846875,"end":5171.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5171.59409375,"end":5173.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5174.294093750001,"end":5175.829718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5176.0322187500005,"end":5177.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5178.05721875,"end":5180.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5180.97659375,"end":5218.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5219.4178437499995,"end":5219.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5219.78909375,"end":5219.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5220.413468750001,"end":5220.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5220.43034375,"end":5220.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5220.464093750001,"end":5240.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5240.03909375,"end":5241.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5242.18221875,"end":5259.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5259.10784375,"end":5259.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5259.52971875,"end":5262.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5263.46159375,"end":5264.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5265.604718750001,"end":5272.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5272.37159375,"end":5272.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5273.198468750001,"end":5273.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5273.232218749999,"end":5285.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5286.61409375,"end":5286.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5286.63096875,"end":5290.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5291.6259687500005,"end":5293.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5294.376593749999,"end":5296.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5297.07659375,"end":5299.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5298.780968749999,"end":5299.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5299.89471875,"end":5310.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5311.437218749999,"end":5323.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5323.013468749999,"end":5325.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5323.2665937500005,"end":5323.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5326.23659375,"end":5344.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5344.88346875,"end":5345.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5346.43596875,"end":5351.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5352.7303437499995,"end":5354.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5354.87346875,"end":5355.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5356.206593750001,"end":5365.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5365.92659375,"end":5382.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5382.227843750001,"end":5389.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5385.2147187499995,"end":5387.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5388.94409375,"end":5388.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5388.96096875,"end":5388.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5388.99471875,"end":5389.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5389.9228437500005,"end":5397.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5397.972218750001,"end":5437.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5437.03784375,"end":5438.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5438.472218750001,"end":5463.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5463.227843750001,"end":5469.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5469.977843750001,"end":5511.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5511.034718750001,"end":5516.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5517.37971875,"end":5522.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5521.37909375,"end":5545.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5545.965968750001,"end":5569.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5569.5740937499995,"end":5600.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5600.050343750001,"end":5600.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5600.50596875,"end":5600.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5600.72534375,"end":5617.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5600.77596875,"end":5601.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5617.920968750001,"end":5643.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5643.030968749999,"end":5643.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5643.689093749999,"end":5643.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5643.7059687500005,"end":5643.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5643.739718750001,"end":5673.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5669.339093750001,"end":5669.423468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5669.423468749999,"end":5669.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5673.01784375,"end":5673.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5673.89534375,"end":5674.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5674.0809687500005,"end":5674.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5682.85596875,"end":5687.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5688.67784375,"end":5690.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5697.655343750001,"end":5699.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5699.106593750001,"end":5701.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5702.059718750001,"end":5702.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5708.30346875,"end":5709.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5709.01221875,"end":5710.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5710.93596875,"end":5712.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5712.792218750001,"end":5717.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5717.905343750001,"end":5724.267218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5725.262843750001,"end":5725.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5726.663468750001,"end":5731.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5731.0340937500005,"end":5731.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5731.32096875,"end":5732.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5731.37159375,"end":5731.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5733.05909375,"end":5735.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5735.286593750001,"end":5742.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5742.52596875,"end":5750.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5750.32221875,"end":5750.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5750.609093749999,"end":5757.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5758.08471875,"end":5770.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5763.130343750001,"end":5763.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5768.7665937500005,"end":5769.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5771.02784375,"end":5773.626593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5774.014718750001,"end":5777.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5777.423468749999,"end":5784.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5784.91596875,"end":5793.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5793.43784375,"end":5793.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5795.108468750001,"end":5795.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5796.25596875,"end":5801.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5802.29721875,"end":5806.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5806.56659375,"end":5818.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5819.59409375,"end":5820.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5821.0790937500005,"end":5822.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5824.31909375,"end":5825.095343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5825.63534375,"end":5827.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5829.0272187499995,"end":5829.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5830.46159375,"end":5832.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5833.56659375,"end":5838.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5839.2197187500005,"end":5841.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5841.497843749999,"end":5843.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5844.079718750001,"end":5844.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5844.653468750001,"end":5848.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5849.20971875,"end":5853.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5853.597218750001,"end":5859.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5854.356593750001,"end":5854.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5856.71909375,"end":5858.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5859.503468750001,"end":5861.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5859.52034375,"end":5859.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5860.88721875,"end":5865.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5866.08471875,"end":5866.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5868.37971875,"end":5868.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5869.155968749999,"end":5870.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5870.32034375,"end":5872.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5872.1259687500005,"end":5872.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5872.733468750001,"end":5875.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5875.61909375,"end":5875.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5875.65284375,"end":5875.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5876.1590937500005,"end":5878.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5878.437218749999,"end":5879.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5880.782843750001,"end":5882.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5883.550343750001,"end":5886.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5887.634093750001,"end":5888.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5889.372218750001,"end":5892.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5893.169093750001,"end":5894.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5895.075968749999,"end":5896.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5897.13471875,"end":5899.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5899.952843749999,"end":5902.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5903.20971875,"end":5904.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5905.167218750001,"end":5906.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5907.124718749999,"end":5908.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5908.7615937499995,"end":5911.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5911.444718750001,"end":5912.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5913.62159375,"end":5917.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5917.70534375,"end":5929.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5929.60221875,"end":5930.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5931.25596875,"end":5934.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5934.698468750001,"end":5935.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5935.3397187499995,"end":5938.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5939.08596875,"end":5940.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5940.80721875,"end":5941.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5942.22471875,"end":5943.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5943.91221875,"end":5944.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5944.73909375,"end":5945.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5945.41409375,"end":5950.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5950.257218750001,"end":5953.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5953.98659375,"end":5954.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5954.91471875,"end":5955.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5956.264718750001,"end":5959.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5960.010968750001,"end":5962.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5962.18784375,"end":5963.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5963.97659375,"end":5969.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5970.49034375,"end":5974.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5975.50221875,"end":5977.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5978.151593750001,"end":5978.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5978.995343750001,"end":5985.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5979.788468750001,"end":5979.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5986.36971875,"end":5989.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5990.149718750001,"end":5991.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5992.866593750001,"end":5994.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5994.90846875,"end":5996.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5996.612843750001,"end":6000.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6001.10159375,"end":6005.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6005.472218750001,"end":6006.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6006.82221875,"end":6010.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6011.3447187500005,"end":6012.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6013.116593750001,"end":6016.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6016.575968749999,"end":6018.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6019.495343750001,"end":6021.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6022.46534375,"end":6023.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6023.96721875,"end":6025.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6026.515343749999,"end":6027.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6028.911593750001,"end":6029.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6029.40096875,"end":6031.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6031.763468749999,"end":6033.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6033.839093750001,"end":6035.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6035.948468750001,"end":6037.905968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6038.44596875,"end":6040.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6041.669093750001,"end":6043.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6043.55909375,"end":6045.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6045.9384687500005,"end":6047.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6047.895968750001,"end":6049.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6050.376593750001,"end":6052.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6052.907843750001,"end":6054.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6055.017218750001,"end":6055.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6055.489718750001,"end":6056.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6056.249093750001,"end":6059.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6060.079718750001,"end":6061.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6062.12159375,"end":6062.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6064.60221875,"end":6066.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6067.13346875,"end":6069.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6069.66471875,"end":6071.149718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6072.5165937500005,"end":6074.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6074.72721875,"end":6075.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6076.6678437499995,"end":6077.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6078.30471875,"end":6079.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6081.44346875,"end":6082.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6083.704718750001,"end":6085.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6085.71284375,"end":6086.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6087.06284375,"end":6094.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6089.45909375,"end":6090.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6090.5897187499995,"end":6091.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6093.795968750001,"end":6095.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6096.58034375,"end":6098.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6098.6053437499995,"end":6102.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6102.368468750001,"end":6102.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6102.67221875,"end":6103.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6103.060343749999,"end":6103.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6103.6678437499995,"end":6104.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6104.03909375,"end":6104.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6104.96721875,"end":6106.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6107.717843750001,"end":6109.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6108.544718749999,"end":6110.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6110.36721875,"end":6111.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6112.577843749999,"end":6114.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6114.40034375,"end":6116.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6117.218468749999,"end":6119.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6120.458468750001,"end":6121.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6123.61409375,"end":6123.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6124.89659375,"end":6124.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6124.94721875,"end":6125.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6125.36909375,"end":6125.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6126.14534375,"end":6126.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6127.529093749999,"end":6128.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6129.840968750001,"end":6131.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6133.064093750001,"end":6135.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6135.76409375,"end":6136.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6139.03784375,"end":6141.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6142.27784375,"end":6142.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6142.32846875,"end":6142.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6143.425343750001,"end":6145.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6146.564093750001,"end":6148.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6147.644093750001,"end":6152.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6154.073468750001,"end":6154.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6155.72721875,"end":6156.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6156.52034375,"end":6157.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6158.5790937500005,"end":6160.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6160.6884687500005,"end":6161.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6162.34221875,"end":6163.439093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6164.2997187500005,"end":6166.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6168.417218750001,"end":6168.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6169.210343750001,"end":6173.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6173.985968750001,"end":6175.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6176.02784375,"end":6177.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6177.02346875,"end":6180.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6181.967843750001,"end":6183.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6184.27971875,"end":6187.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6187.6209687499995,"end":6188.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6189.42659375,"end":6191.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6192.16034375,"end":6193.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6193.45971875,"end":6197.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6197.86409375,"end":6202.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6203.753468750001,"end":6206.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6204.71534375,"end":6205.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6206.74034375,"end":6207.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6206.79096875,"end":6206.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6206.892218750001,"end":6207.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6208.14096875,"end":6210.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6210.33471875,"end":6213.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6214.874093750001,"end":6215.093468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6215.36346875,"end":6218.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6219.092843750001,"end":6223.345343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6225.083468750001,"end":6225.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6226.19721875,"end":6226.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6227.1590937500005,"end":6227.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6227.800343750001,"end":6228.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6229.8759687500005,"end":6232.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6233.87534375,"end":6234.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6235.2928437499995,"end":6236.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6237.604718750001,"end":6240.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6240.72659375,"end":6243.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6244.253468750001,"end":6245.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6246.37971875,"end":6248.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6249.5184687500005,"end":6249.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6250.98659375,"end":6251.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6252.269093750001,"end":6253.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6253.51784375,"end":6253.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6254.73284375,"end":6255.880343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6256.8759687500005,"end":6259.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6261.600968750001,"end":6263.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6264.317843750001,"end":6266.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6267.135968750001,"end":6268.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6268.300343750001,"end":6268.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6269.49846875,"end":6270.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6271.4559687500005,"end":6272.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6273.497843749999,"end":6273.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6275.7928437499995,"end":6276.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6276.602843750001,"end":6280.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6280.399718750001,"end":6281.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6281.31096875,"end":6281.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6281.78346875,"end":6281.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6281.81721875,"end":6281.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6283.15034375,"end":6287.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6287.1834687499995,"end":6290.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6291.01409375,"end":6292.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6292.819718750001,"end":6293.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6294.76034375,"end":6295.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6296.44784375,"end":6299.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6300.10971875,"end":6300.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6301.27409375,"end":6301.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6302.607218749999,"end":6304.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6305.25659375,"end":6305.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6306.38721875,"end":6307.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6308.44596875,"end":6308.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6310.403468750001,"end":6310.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6311.36534375,"end":6314.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6315.077843749999,"end":6316.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6317.32221875,"end":6317.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6318.233468750001,"end":6319.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6319.718468749999,"end":6321.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6321.456593750001,"end":6322.249718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6323.65034375,"end":6324.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6324.089093750001,"end":6328.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":6324.359093749999,"end":6329.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6328.965968750001,"end":6328.999718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6335.513468749999,"end":6340.204718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6340.47471875,"end":6341.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6342.56721875,"end":6346.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6347.12346875,"end":6351.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6352.017218750001,"end":6355.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6356.185343749999,"end":6365.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6366.00659375,"end":6367.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6376.958468750001,"end":6380.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6381.126593750001,"end":6381.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6387.5897187499995,"end":6388.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6388.298468750001,"end":6388.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6388.60221875,"end":6395.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6395.97659375,"end":6397.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6397.66409375,"end":6408.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6397.680968750001,"end":6398.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6408.37971875,"end":6408.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6409.03784375,"end":6409.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6409.071593750001,"end":6409.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6409.08846875,"end":6409.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6409.122218750001,"end":6409.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6409.32471875,"end":6409.577843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6409.577843749999,"end":6409.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6409.864718750001,"end":6409.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6409.89846875,"end":6413.7459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6413.7459687499995,"end":6414.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6414.505343750001,"end":6416.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6417.20534375,"end":6418.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6419.2303437499995,"end":6420.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6421.03596875,"end":6421.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6423.14534375,"end":6423.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6423.71909375,"end":6427.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6426.06471875,"end":6428.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6428.427218750001,"end":6429.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6429.507218750001,"end":6429.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6429.96284375,"end":6433.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6433.1522187499995,"end":6440.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6433.18596875,"end":6433.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6436.999718749999,"end":6437.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6440.93159375,"end":6445.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6446.36534375,"end":6457.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6457.857218749999,"end":6459.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6459.966593749999,"end":6466.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6467.88096875,"end":6469.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6470.31096875,"end":6471.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6471.593468749999,"end":6472.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6473.280968749999,"end":6475.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6475.98096875,"end":6477.263468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6477.600968750001,"end":6478.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6478.950968749999,"end":6479.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6481.482218749999,"end":6483.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6484.23284375,"end":6486.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6486.29159375,"end":6487.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6488.31659375,"end":6491.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6492.467843750001,"end":6493.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6493.1259687500005,"end":6493.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6494.104718750001,"end":6494.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6494.12159375,"end":6494.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6495.25221875,"end":6497.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6497.850968750001,"end":6500.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6502.069718750001,"end":6502.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6502.10346875,"end":6504.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6504.179093750001,"end":6504.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6504.415343750001,"end":6504.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6504.8709687499995,"end":6506.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6507.368468750001,"end":6508.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6509.44409375,"end":6512.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6513.44346875,"end":6521.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6522.1678437499995,"end":6524.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6524.952218750001,"end":6524.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6524.96909375,"end":6525.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6525.15471875,"end":6528.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":6525.171593749999,"end":6525.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6529.154093749999,"end":6531.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6531.600968750001,"end":6531.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6531.95534375,"end":6532.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6533.17034375,"end":6534.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6536.0897187499995,"end":6538.485968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6538.671593749999,"end":6544.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6541.489718750001,"end":6541.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6543.61596875,"end":6578.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6578.007218750001,"end":6583.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6584.9090937500005,"end":6589.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6589.7353437500005,"end":6591.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6589.904093749999,"end":6589.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6590.41034375,"end":6593.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6593.22846875,"end":6593.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6593.245343750001,"end":6594.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6594.00471875,"end":6598.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6598.89846875,"end":6599.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6600.56909375,"end":6607.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6608.36534375,"end":6615.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6611.74034375,"end":6615.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6615.09846875,"end":6643.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6615.11534375,"end":6615.267218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6629.3915937500005,"end":6629.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6631.534718750001,"end":6631.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6642.72284375,"end":6643.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6644.07284375,"end":6656.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6656.577218750001,"end":6656.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6656.64471875,"end":6656.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6656.661593750001,"end":6656.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6656.96534375,"end":6661.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6662.58471875,"end":6663.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6664.05284375,"end":6668.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6669.554093750001,"end":6670.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6671.03909375,"end":6672.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6673.064093750001,"end":6699.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6697.41471875,"end":6700.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6699.692843750001,"end":6718.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6718.7615937499995,"end":6723.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6723.30096875,"end":6724.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6723.655343750001,"end":6728.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6726.25409375,"end":6727.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6728.5322187500005,"end":6735.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6734.4384687500005,"end":6735.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6736.0584687499995,"end":6738.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6736.32846875,"end":6737.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6738.319718750001,"end":6741.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6741.86346875,"end":6741.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6741.9647187499995,"end":6746.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6742.251593750001,"end":6742.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6743.87159375,"end":6751.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6752.427218750001,"end":6753.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6753.96284375,"end":6758.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6759.34596875,"end":6761.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6762.130343750001,"end":6762.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6763.00784375,"end":6763.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6763.395968750001,"end":6765.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6765.99471875,"end":6771.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6771.9178437499995,"end":6775.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6775.84971875,"end":6780.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6780.96284375,"end":6781.485968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6782.0428437499995,"end":6787.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6787.729718750001,"end":6793.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6793.55159375,"end":6794.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6796.42034375,"end":6797.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6798.225968750001,"end":6798.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6799.32284375,"end":6799.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6800.74034375,"end":6801.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6803.288468750001,"end":6805.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6805.51596875,"end":6806.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6806.83221875,"end":6807.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6809.852843750001,"end":6811.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6812.097218750001,"end":6814.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6814.915343750001,"end":6816.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6816.90659375,"end":6821.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6821.614718750001,"end":6825.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6825.44534375,"end":6830.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6831.4022187499995,"end":6833.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6833.64659375,"end":6835.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6836.17784375,"end":6836.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6836.73471875,"end":6839.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6840.00846875,"end":6840.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6841.206593750001,"end":6844.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6845.155343750001,"end":6847.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6848.31096875,"end":6849.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6850.52159375,"end":6852.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6853.440968750001,"end":6855.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6857.11971875,"end":6861.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6861.99659375,"end":6863.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6864.7303437499995,"end":6865.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6866.18159375,"end":6866.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6867.177218750001,"end":6868.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6868.1728437500005,"end":6868.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6869.050343750001,"end":6870.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6870.56909375,"end":6872.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6873.420968750001,"end":6889.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6890.279093749999,"end":6891.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6892.28721875,"end":6894.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6894.61596875,"end":6896.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6897.33284375,"end":6899.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6900.28596875,"end":6901.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6902.07471875,"end":6903.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6903.9647187499995,"end":6904.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6904.74096875,"end":6905.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6905.60159375,"end":6906.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6906.58034375,"end":6910.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6910.967843750001,"end":6911.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6911.1365937499995,"end":6918.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6919.962218750001,"end":6920.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6920.60346875,"end":6923.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6924.130343750001,"end":6928.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6928.46721875,"end":6935.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6936.077843750001,"end":6941.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6942.321593750001,"end":6947.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6947.4853437500005,"end":6953.526593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6953.86409375,"end":6962.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6963.39846875,"end":6967.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6967.70159375,"end":6970.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6970.65471875,"end":6975.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6975.21096875,"end":6982.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6983.39534375,"end":6996.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6997.36784375,"end":7001.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7002.092843750001,"end":7005.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7005.95721875,"end":7010.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7010.54721875,"end":7012.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7012.2684687500005,"end":7012.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7012.75784375,"end":7016.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7017.651593750001,"end":7020.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7020.75659375,"end":7022.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7023.135968750001,"end":7035.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7035.06659375,"end":7040.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7040.77034375,"end":7042.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7042.727843750001,"end":7049.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7049.798468750001,"end":7058.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7058.74221875,"end":7061.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7062.33659375,"end":7065.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7065.34034375,"end":7067.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7067.68596875,"end":7069.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7069.964093750001,"end":7072.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7072.630343750001,"end":7074.655343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7075.27971875,"end":7077.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7077.86159375,"end":7084.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7085.337218750001,"end":7088.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7088.40846875,"end":7096.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7094.12909375,"end":7094.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7097.048468750001,"end":7098.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7099.630343750001,"end":7106.5322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7106.73471875,"end":7107.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7107.966593749999,"end":7108.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7108.23659375,"end":7111.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7111.37534375,"end":7111.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7111.66221875,"end":7119.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7119.137843750001,"end":7122.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7123.08659375,"end":7126.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7127.052218750001,"end":7128.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7128.503468750001,"end":7134.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7133.3465937500005,"end":7134.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7178.13284375,"end":7179.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7188.544718749999,"end":7192.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7192.03784375,"end":7192.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7192.257218750001,"end":7192.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7192.27409375,"end":7192.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7192.341593749999,"end":7192.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7193.26971875,"end":7193.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7193.69159375,"end":7194.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7197.91034375,"end":7197.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7197.927218750001,"end":7199.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7200.272843750001,"end":7204.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7204.50846875,"end":7206.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7206.71909375,"end":7217.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7218.042218750001,"end":7221.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7221.889718750001,"end":7224.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7225.0790937500005,"end":7227.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7227.694718750001,"end":7233.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7233.465968750001,"end":7235.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7235.22096875,"end":7269.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7269.966593749999,"end":7311.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7311.25971875,"end":7312.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7312.23846875,"end":7318.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7319.005343750001,"end":7323.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7323.25784375,"end":7340.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7340.30159375,"end":7346.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7347.01784375,"end":7348.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7349.21159375,"end":7356.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7356.95721875,"end":7364.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7364.36534375,"end":7364.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7364.60159375,"end":7384.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7384.83471875,"end":7386.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7386.032843750001,"end":7396.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7396.83284375,"end":7400.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7401.06846875,"end":7403.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7403.8865937499995,"end":7407.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7407.58221875,"end":7414.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7415.142218750001,"end":7415.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7416.087218750001,"end":7418.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7419.124718750001,"end":7427.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7427.96721875,"end":7428.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7428.99659375,"end":7430.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7431.67971875,"end":7432.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7432.202843750001,"end":7433.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7433.50221875,"end":7434.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7434.9872187500005,"end":7438.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7438.632218750001,"end":7443.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7443.458468750001,"end":7454.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7454.73096875,"end":7457.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7458.05534375,"end":7460.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7461.10971875,"end":7462.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7462.32471875,"end":7465.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7466.07096875,"end":7467.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7468.0790937500005,"end":7469.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7469.530343750001,"end":7477.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7477.1747187500005,"end":7478.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7478.77784375,"end":7479.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7480.499093750001,"end":7482.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7482.54096875,"end":7483.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7484.279093749999,"end":7485.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7485.86534375,"end":7487.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7487.856593750001,"end":7489.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7489.22346875,"end":7489.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7490.53971875,"end":7492.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7492.17659375,"end":7494.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7495.28159375,"end":7496.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7496.901593750001,"end":7499.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7499.753468750001,"end":7504.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7504.815968750001,"end":7513.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7514.012843750001,"end":7520.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7521.30284375,"end":7525.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7525.94346875,"end":7526.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7526.97284375,"end":7527.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7527.040343750001,"end":7530.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7530.63471875,"end":7542.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7542.5653437500005,"end":7551.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7551.8465937500005,"end":7586.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7586.760968750001,"end":7606.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7606.0322187500005,"end":7617.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7618.38471875,"end":7621.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7621.590968750001,"end":7622.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7623.16034375,"end":7625.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7625.522843750001,"end":7626.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7627.17659375,"end":7632.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7632.89721875,"end":7644.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7644.827843750001,"end":7651.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7652.26971875,"end":7653.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7654.19346875,"end":7659.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7662.9853437500005,"end":7663.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7665.21284375,"end":7667.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7667.03534375,"end":7669.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7669.60034375,"end":7670.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7671.0009687500005,"end":7671.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7671.085343750001,"end":7674.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7674.359093750001,"end":7676.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7676.991593750001,"end":7677.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7677.092843750001,"end":7677.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7692.972218750001,"end":7696.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7697.376593750001,"end":7704.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7705.27409375,"end":7707.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7707.974093750001,"end":7709.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7710.404093749999,"end":7713.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7713.76221875,"end":7734.6365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7735.22721875,"end":7751.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7751.427218750001,"end":7770.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7751.46096875,"end":7751.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7751.54534375,"end":7751.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7770.71534375,"end":7771.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7771.50846875,"end":7785.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7785.700343750001,"end":7788.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7788.366593750001,"end":7789.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7789.497218750001,"end":7790.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7790.847218750001,"end":7791.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7791.62346875,"end":7792.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7792.56846875,"end":7794.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7794.91409375,"end":7795.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7795.60596875,"end":7797.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7798.52534375,"end":7807.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7807.722218750001,"end":7809.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7809.122843749999,"end":7814.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7814.64096875,"end":7815.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7815.24846875,"end":7815.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7815.923468750001,"end":7825.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7825.575968749999,"end":7845.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7845.218468750001,"end":7848.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7848.8465937500005,"end":7855.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7856.423468750001,"end":7857.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7858.19534375,"end":7868.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7868.6747187500005,"end":7869.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7870.66596875,"end":7873.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7873.9228437500005,"end":7874.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7875.323468750001,"end":7876.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7876.673468750001,"end":7879.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7879.74471875,"end":7881.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7881.685343749999,"end":7882.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7882.950968749999,"end":7884.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7885.482218749999,"end":7928.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7928.96909375,"end":7944.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7945.74284375,"end":7946.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7946.50221875,"end":7946.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7946.55284375,"end":7950.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7951.716593749999,"end":7952.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7960.154093749999,"end":7966.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7974.1434687500005,"end":7977.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7977.687218750001,"end":7978.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7984.84221875,"end":7984.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7984.909718750001,"end":7985.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7985.432843750001,"end":7997.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7986.7997187500005,"end":7986.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7986.9853437500005,"end":7987.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7997.68409375,"end":8039.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8039.50034375,"end":8057.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8056.999718750001,"end":8058.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8057.26971875,"end":8065.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8065.065968750001,"end":8065.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8065.47096875,"end":8067.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8068.019093750001,"end":8073.132218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8072.575343750001,"end":8075.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8073.503468750001,"end":8102.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8077.874093750001,"end":8078.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8103.05159375,"end":8115.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8116.09596875,"end":8126.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8126.423468750001,"end":8147.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8148.124718750001,"end":8161.2197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8161.354718750001,"end":8172.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8166.90659375,"end":8167.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8167.159718750001,"end":8167.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8173.18409375,"end":8189.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8190.312218750001,"end":8192.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8193.19784375,"end":8206.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8206.613468750002,"end":8230.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8230.89659375,"end":8271.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8271.902843750002,"end":8299.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8299.51034375,"end":8315.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8315.676593750002,"end":8348.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8324.265968750002,"end":8324.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8345.730968750002,"end":8346.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8348.414093750001,"end":8369.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8356.227218750002,"end":8356.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8370.149093750002,"end":8377.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8377.675343750001,"end":8390.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8390.601593750001,"end":8431.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8431.33784375,"end":8435.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8435.387843750003,"end":8446.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8446.62659375,"end":8460.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8461.004093750002,"end":8472.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8473.339718750001,"end":8474.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8474.16659375,"end":8500.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8479.44846875,"end":8479.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8487.059093750002,"end":8487.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8489.77596875,"end":8489.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8489.843468750001,"end":8489.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8489.94471875,"end":8490.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8500.778468750003,"end":8508.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8508.304718750001,"end":8525.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8511.477218750002,"end":8511.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8525.68596875,"end":8539.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8529.027218750001,"end":8529.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8539.472843750002,"end":8546.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8547.31971875,"end":8588.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8557.42784375,"end":8558.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8577.340343750002,"end":8577.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8588.27534375,"end":8589.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8589.70971875,"end":8589.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8603.766593750002,"end":8604.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8606.41596875,"end":8609.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8663.47034375,"end":8663.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":8668.718468750001,"end":8669.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8669.157218750002,"end":8669.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9146.280968750001,"end":9148.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9149.183468750001,"end":9150.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9211.587218750003,"end":9212.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9213.578468750002,"end":9216.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9229.25534375,"end":9231.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9231.668468750002,"end":9232.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9238.249718750001,"end":9238.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9238.97534375,"end":9238.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9239.430968750003,"end":9283.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9283.778468750003,"end":9337.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9337.64346875,"end":9345.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9345.92909375,"end":9351.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9351.278468750003,"end":9390.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9390.79971875,"end":9410.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9410.813468750002,"end":9411.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9411.640343750001,"end":9418.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9419.53784375,"end":9420.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9421.15784375,"end":9430.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9431.063468750002,"end":9438.859718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9438.910343750002,"end":9452.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9452.34284375,"end":9453.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9452.42721875,"end":9453.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9453.102218750002,"end":9453.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9453.50721875,"end":9453.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9453.524093750002,"end":9453.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9453.54096875,"end":9453.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9453.996593750002,"end":9456.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9456.949718750002,"end":9475.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9475.47846875,"end":9476.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9476.17034375,"end":9517.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9517.56471875,"end":9517.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9517.902218750001,"end":9549.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9549.62721875,"end":9579.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9549.660968750002,"end":9550.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9571.76721875,"end":9573.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9576.812843750002,"end":9577.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9578.58471875,"end":9582.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9582.246593750002,"end":9625.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9625.63221875,"end":9630.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9630.25596875,"end":9683.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9684.20534375,"end":9699.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9694.00971875,"end":9695.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9698.093468750001,"end":9718.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9705.636593750001,"end":9705.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9718.461593750002,"end":9738.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9738.74534375,"end":9751.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9751.40159375,"end":9751.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9752.414093750001,"end":9754.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9752.532218750002,"end":9752.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9754.422218750002,"end":9769.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9761.745968750001,"end":9761.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9761.762843750003,"end":9762.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9769.778468750003,"end":9793.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9794.449718750002,"end":9802.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9797.09909375,"end":9797.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9797.16659375,"end":9797.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9797.183468750001,"end":9797.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9797.234093750001,"end":9797.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9802.347218750001,"end":9802.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9802.97159375,"end":9837.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9837.734093750001,"end":9846.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9846.72846875,"end":9847.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9848.46659375,"end":9859.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9859.047218750002,"end":9868.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9868.88534375,"end":9870.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9871.19721875,"end":9890.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9891.312218750001,"end":9893.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9893.387843750003,"end":9894.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9893.97846875,"end":9898.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9898.652843750002,"end":9901.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9902.399093750002,"end":9915.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9913.671593750001,"end":9914.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9915.66284375,"end":9915.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9915.96659375,"end":9967.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9955.89284375,"end":9956.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9968.144093750001,"end":9973.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9973.13909375,"end":9973.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9973.86471875,"end":9974.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9975.754718750002,"end":9977.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9979.61909375,"end":9981.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9986.402843750002,"end":9990.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9994.06409375,"end":9997.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10002.13034375,"end":10005.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10003.581593750001,"end":10003.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10003.598468750002,"end":10003.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10005.82596875,"end":10009.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10009.67346875,"end":10011.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10011.495968750001,"end":10012.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10012.778468750003,"end":10060.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10061.395343750002,"end":10063.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10064.09534375,"end":10086.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10087.129718750002,"end":10087.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10087.93971875,"end":10100.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10101.878468750001,"end":10104.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10105.75971875,"end":10125.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10125.503468750001,"end":10139.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10140.40409375,"end":10141.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10142.73284375,"end":10143.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10143.52596875,"end":10148.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10149.567218750002,"end":10151.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10152.402218750001,"end":10161.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10162.03784375,"end":10162.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10163.45534375,"end":10167.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10168.062218750001,"end":10169.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10169.395343750002,"end":10171.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10171.96034375,"end":10178.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10178.457218750002,"end":10193.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10193.965343750002,"end":10194.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10194.066593750002,"end":10198.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10199.297843750002,"end":10200.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10200.22596875,"end":10202.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10202.94284375,"end":10209.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10210.03034375,"end":10218.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10219.480343750001,"end":10220.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10219.76721875,"end":10230.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10231.44471875,"end":10235.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10235.44409375,"end":10251.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10251.559718750003,"end":10251.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10251.74534375,"end":10256.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10256.90909375,"end":10268.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10269.09284375,"end":10269.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10269.683468750001,"end":10271.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10273.109093750001,"end":10274.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10275.67409375,"end":10276.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10277.04096875,"end":10278.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10278.222218750001,"end":10279.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10278.30659375,"end":10278.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10279.555343750002,"end":10281.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10281.20909375,"end":10281.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10281.394718750002,"end":10293.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10293.22409375,"end":10297.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10294.82721875,"end":10295.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10298.472218750001,"end":10303.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10303.399718750003,"end":10304.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10306.11659375,"end":10306.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10306.133468750002,"end":10320.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10321.77659375,"end":10323.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10323.83534375,"end":10331.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10331.98596875,"end":10345.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10346.042843750001,"end":10355.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10356.015968750002,"end":10356.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10356.03284375,"end":10356.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10357.011593750001,"end":10358.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10358.378468750001,"end":10361.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10360.808468750001,"end":10361.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10361.83784375,"end":10363.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10361.85471875,"end":10361.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10362.040343750003,"end":10362.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10363.64346875,"end":10382.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10382.52659375,"end":10385.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10385.58096875,"end":10390.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10391.47034375,"end":10399.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10399.637843750003,"end":10401.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10401.64596875,"end":10406.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":10402.82721875,"end":10405.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10407.282218750002,"end":10419.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10420.259093750003,"end":10426.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10428.98346875,"end":10430.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10430.92409375,"end":10431.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10432.004093750002,"end":10433.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10434.50159375,"end":10439.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10441.04909375,"end":10451.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10452.405968750001,"end":10467.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10468.605968750002,"end":10469.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10468.774718750003,"end":10469.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10469.56784375,"end":10469.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10470.27659375,"end":10480.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10481.160968750002,"end":10482.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10483.18596875,"end":10484.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10485.34596875,"end":10489.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10490.15534375,"end":10493.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10490.290343750003,"end":10490.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10494.00284375,"end":10512.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10513.172843750002,"end":10513.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10514.57346875,"end":10517.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10517.98221875,"end":10537.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10537.995968750001,"end":10539.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10539.278468750003,"end":10541.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10541.286593750003,"end":10544.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10544.30721875,"end":10548.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10546.19721875,"end":10546.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10548.79596875,"end":10573.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10560.254093750002,"end":10560.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10573.905968750001,"end":10577.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10578.040343750003,"end":10597.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10597.83471875,"end":10602.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10602.289718750002,"end":10605.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10602.340343750002,"end":10602.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10605.512843750003,"end":10612.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10612.769093750001,"end":10620.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10621.577843750001,"end":10622.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10623.180968750003,"end":10645.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10645.371593750002,"end":10652.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10652.442218750002,"end":10662.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10663.815968750001,"end":10669.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10669.367843750002,"end":10683.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10683.89721875,"end":10689.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10690.309718750003,"end":10703.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10703.370968750001,"end":10704.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10705.34534375,"end":10706.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10707.89346875,"end":10711.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10712.331593750001,"end":10715.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10715.01471875,"end":10727.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10727.62034375,"end":10750.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10751.009093750003,"end":10761.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10755.88596875,"end":10756.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10762.56846875,"end":10765.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10765.96034375,"end":10781.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10781.35034375,"end":10784.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10781.586593750002,"end":10784.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10795.710968750001,"end":10797.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10805.582843750002,"end":10808.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10808.40096875,"end":10809.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10814.89784375,"end":10815.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10815.640343750001,"end":10827.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10827.60471875,"end":10828.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10828.02659375,"end":10841.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10841.35784375,"end":10852.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10853.74409375,"end":10868.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10869.15096875,"end":10870.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10870.31534375,"end":10872.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10872.964718750001,"end":10873.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10873.065968750001,"end":10873.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10873.67346875,"end":10886.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10886.430968750003,"end":10889.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10890.51471875,"end":10892.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10893.14721875,"end":10898.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10898.56409375,"end":10902.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10902.833468750003,"end":10933.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10933.96784375,"end":10936.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10936.414718750002,"end":10943.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10943.789093750001,"end":10950.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10950.977843750003,"end":10951.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10951.855343750001,"end":10972.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10968.899093750002,"end":10969.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10972.03784375,"end":10972.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10973.067218750002,"end":10973.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10973.87721875,"end":10973.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10973.910968750002,"end":10973.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10973.92784375,"end":10975.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10975.429718750001,"end":10977.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10975.497218750003,"end":10975.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":10975.969718750002,"end":10975.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10975.98659375,"end":10976.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10977.707843750002,"end":10980.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10980.812843750002,"end":11001.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11001.36659375,"end":11011.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11012.16659375,"end":11027.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11013.449093750001,"end":11014.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11014.934093750002,"end":11015.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11028.636593750001,"end":11028.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11028.653468750003,"end":11028.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11028.805343750002,"end":11028.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11028.957218750002,"end":11028.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11028.974093750003,"end":11029.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11029.699718750002,"end":11029.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11029.73346875,"end":11044.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11044.02659375,"end":11047.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11048.042843750001,"end":11050.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11048.414093750001,"end":11064.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11064.52971875,"end":11072.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11072.427218750003,"end":11090.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11079.784718750001,"end":11080.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11081.809718750003,"end":11082.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11090.331593750001,"end":11099.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11099.76471875,"end":11106.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11100.000968750002,"end":11100.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11104.911593750003,"end":11123.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11123.524718750003,"end":11138.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11139.083468750003,"end":11141.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11140.56846875,"end":11145.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11145.242843750002,"end":11145.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11146.356593750003,"end":11149.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11149.17471875,"end":11149.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11149.96784375,"end":11156.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11150.79471875,"end":11151.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11154.152843750002,"end":11154.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11156.75159375,"end":11159.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11160.160343750002,"end":11163.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11163.602843750003,"end":11170.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11170.285343750002,"end":11170.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11171.38221875,"end":11173.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11173.89659375,"end":11176.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11175.786593750003,"end":11199.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11185.675343750001,"end":11185.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11185.70909375,"end":11185.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11185.962218750003,"end":11186.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11186.56971875,"end":11186.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11186.586593750002,"end":11186.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11186.60346875,"end":11188.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11188.93221875,"end":11188.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11188.965968750003,"end":11189.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11189.60721875,"end":11189.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11189.894093750001,"end":11190.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11191.379093750002,"end":11192.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11199.20909375,"end":11216.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11202.06096875,"end":11202.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11202.786593750003,"end":11203.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11216.99534375,"end":11229.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11217.012218750002,"end":11217.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11220.387218750002,"end":11220.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11222.024093750002,"end":11222.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11229.567218750002,"end":11231.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11231.69346875,"end":11232.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11232.90846875,"end":11233.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11233.54971875,"end":11233.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11234.02221875,"end":11239.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11239.962218750003,"end":11241.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11241.97034375,"end":11250.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11251.26846875,"end":11267.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11267.24909375,"end":11281.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11281.89659375,"end":11285.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11285.54159375,"end":11287.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11287.97159375,"end":11293.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11292.49409375,"end":11296.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11297.219093750002,"end":11302.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11302.349093750003,"end":11305.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11305.707218750002,"end":11308.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11309.655968750001,"end":11314.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11315.07284375,"end":11320.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11320.87784375,"end":11322.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11322.86909375,"end":11324.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11324.691593750002,"end":11331.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11332.015343750001,"end":11335.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11335.96409375,"end":11336.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11336.031593750002,"end":11336.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11336.976593750001,"end":11342.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11342.44409375,"end":11347.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11345.02596875,"end":11346.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11348.23221875,"end":11353.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11348.856593750003,"end":11349.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11349.71721875,"end":11352.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11353.56471875,"end":11354.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11355.505343750003,"end":11358.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11359.302218750003,"end":11363.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11363.85846875,"end":11366.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11367.047843750002,"end":11371.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11372.59971875,"end":11379.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11376.329093750002,"end":11376.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11378.20221875,"end":11391.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11391.027218750001,"end":11391.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11391.719093750002,"end":11391.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11391.73596875,"end":11399.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11399.54909375,"end":11400.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11401.08471875,"end":11408.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11417.31846875,"end":11419.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11431.45971875,"end":11433.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11434.71659375,"end":11435.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11435.35784375,"end":11435.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11440.437218750001,"end":11440.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11440.504718750002,"end":11440.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11440.96034375,"end":11441.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11441.230343750001,"end":11450.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11451.355343750001,"end":11461.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11462.35784375,"end":11480.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11481.19034375,"end":11482.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11483.114093750002,"end":11483.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11484.329093750002,"end":11507.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11507.802218750003,"end":11513.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11514.130343750003,"end":11514.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11514.957218750002,"end":11526.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11526.60096875,"end":11529.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11526.837218750003,"end":11527.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11529.70596875,"end":11546.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11546.614718750003,"end":11552.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11552.16659375,"end":11554.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11554.07346875,"end":11556.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11556.55409375,"end":11565.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11565.734093750001,"end":11565.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11565.97034375,"end":11580.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11579.402843750002,"end":11582.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11583.047843750002,"end":11584.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11583.16596875,"end":11586.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11584.887218750002,"end":11587.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11587.266593750002,"end":11588.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11587.97534375,"end":11588.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11588.312843750002,"end":11589.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11590.270343750002,"end":11591.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11592.531593750002,"end":11593.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11594.60721875,"end":11595.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11596.176593750002,"end":11599.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11600.294093750003,"end":11608.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11607.22971875,"end":11608.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":11608.140968750002,"end":11608.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11608.27596875,"end":11608.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11608.410968750002,"end":11608.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11608.42784375,"end":11608.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11608.44471875,"end":11608.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11608.461593750002,"end":11609.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11609.035343750002,"end":11610.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11610.65534375,"end":11650.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11650.969718750002,"end":11653.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11653.821593750003,"end":11672.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11666.849093750003,"end":11667.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11671.75971875,"end":11675.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11676.062843750002,"end":11682.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11682.79596875,"end":11694.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11694.54096875,"end":11713.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11705.745968750001,"end":11706.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11715.17909375,"end":11732.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11732.72909375,"end":11733.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11733.589718750001,"end":11741.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11741.520968750003,"end":11741.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11741.774093750002,"end":11741.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11741.925968750002,"end":11741.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11741.976593750001,"end":11741.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11741.993468750003,"end":11742.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11742.027218750001,"end":11742.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11743.32659375,"end":11746.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11746.364093750002,"end":11759.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11759.965343750002,"end":11764.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11765.88846875,"end":11766.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11766.22596875,"end":11777.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11777.684093750002,"end":11781.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11781.97034375,"end":11795.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11788.905968750001,"end":11788.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11789.024093750002,"end":11789.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11792.989718750003,"end":11793.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11795.48721875,"end":11801.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11801.27534375,"end":11804.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11804.633468750002,"end":11805.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11805.578468750002,"end":11816.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11816.20971875,"end":11825.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11825.71034375,"end":11830.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11830.688468750002,"end":11831.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11831.76846875,"end":11832.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11832.91596875,"end":11859.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11860.050968750002,"end":11879.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11879.659718750001,"end":11880.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11880.53721875,"end":11882.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11883.11909375,"end":11884.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11884.637843750003,"end":11884.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11885.481593750003,"end":11886.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11886.696593750003,"end":11902.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11897.344718750002,"end":11898.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11898.137843750003,"end":11898.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11898.25596875,"end":11899.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11899.57221875,"end":11899.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11900.46659375,"end":11902.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11903.16659375,"end":11907.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11906.052218750003,"end":11906.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11907.030968750001,"end":11907.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11907.081593750001,"end":11907.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11907.300968750002,"end":11907.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11907.351593750001,"end":11908.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11908.17846875,"end":11910.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11910.355343750001,"end":11915.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11915.19846875,"end":11915.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11915.97471875,"end":11931.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11931.044093750003,"end":11937.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11937.625343750002,"end":11959.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11937.97971875,"end":11938.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11959.832843750002,"end":11964.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11965.637843750003,"end":11971.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11971.965968750003,"end":11972.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11973.09659375,"end":11984.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11985.17909375,"end":11990.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11990.511593750001,"end":11995.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11995.472843750002,"end":12003.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12003.89346875,"end":12008.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12008.179718750001,"end":12008.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12008.399093750002,"end":12012.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12012.786593750003,"end":12024.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12023.65409375,"end":12024.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12034.133468750002,"end":12036.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12043.212218750003,"end":12045.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12046.469093750002,"end":12047.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12047.39721875,"end":12047.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12051.39659375,"end":12051.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12051.852218750002,"end":12052.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12052.695968750002,"end":12087.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12087.390968750002,"end":12100.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12099.86159375,"end":12100.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12101.093468750001,"end":12104.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12104.55284375,"end":12117.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12118.17096875,"end":12126.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12126.254093750002,"end":12141.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12141.27284375,"end":12152.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12152.039093750001,"end":12161.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12162.012218750002,"end":12164.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12165.20159375,"end":12183.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12184.28721875,"end":12211.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12212.08034375,"end":12220.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12220.36596875,"end":12229.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12229.54596875,"end":12236.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12236.262218750002,"end":12240.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12240.86909375,"end":12244.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12244.379093750002,"end":12250.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12250.504718750002,"end":12251.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12250.74096875,"end":12251.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12251.11221875,"end":12251.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12251.129093750002,"end":12251.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12251.83784375,"end":12258.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12258.70596875,"end":12292.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12292.86096875,"end":12304.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12305.230343750001,"end":12325.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12317.49846875,"end":12317.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12317.70096875,"end":12317.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12317.97096875,"end":12318.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12325.159718750001,"end":12341.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12341.849093750003,"end":12378.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12379.19346875,"end":12379.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12379.93596875,"end":12420.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12420.53721875,"end":12425.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12425.937218750001,"end":12428.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12428.940968750001,"end":12461.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12461.94846875,"end":12477.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12477.13596875,"end":12482.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12483.39659375,"end":12522.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12523.035968750002,"end":12526.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12526.630343750003,"end":12526.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12526.69784375,"end":12526.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12526.96784375,"end":12530.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12530.849093750003,"end":12557.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12556.887218750002,"end":12584.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12584.59596875,"end":12585.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12585.76034375,"end":12586.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12607.05659375,"end":12609.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12615.308468750001,"end":12617.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12623.391593750002,"end":12624.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12624.74159375,"end":12625.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12626.665343750003,"end":12632.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12633.499718750001,"end":12634.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12635.06909375,"end":12646.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12647.03346875,"end":12652.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12653.14221875,"end":12658.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12658.84596875,"end":12663.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12664.87034375,"end":12666.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12667.38471875,"end":12671.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12672.19409375,"end":12674.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12674.742218750001,"end":12679.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12680.56409375,"end":12681.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12682.437218750001,"end":12685.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12685.812218750001,"end":12688.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12688.49534375,"end":12689.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12689.69346875,"end":12692.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12693.524093750002,"end":12696.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12695.97096875,"end":12715.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12715.343468750001,"end":12722.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12723.274718750003,"end":12723.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12723.96659375,"end":12728.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12728.87721875,"end":12729.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12730.31159375,"end":12730.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12730.598468750002,"end":12730.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12730.750343750002,"end":12730.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12730.78409375,"end":12730.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12730.800968750002,"end":12730.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12730.817843750003,"end":12730.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12730.868468750003,"end":12731.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12731.03721875,"end":12731.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12731.83034375,"end":12737.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12737.48346875,"end":12740.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12741.617843750002,"end":12742.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12743.79471875,"end":12747.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12748.418468750002,"end":12751.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12752.637218750002,"end":12755.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12757.14284375,"end":12759.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12761.074718750002,"end":12761.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12761.547218750002,"end":12763.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12764.78721875,"end":12767.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12767.774093750002,"end":12769.157843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12770.052218750003,"end":12772.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12773.258468750002,"end":12776.329718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12776.785343750002,"end":12777.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12778.60784375,"end":12782.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12782.52284375,"end":12784.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12784.83471875,"end":12785.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12786.285968750002,"end":12788.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12789.222218750001,"end":12791.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12791.88846875,"end":12796.579718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12797.507843750001,"end":12798.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12799.00971875,"end":12800.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12802.047218750002,"end":12807.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12807.683468750001,"end":12813.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12813.67409375,"end":12821.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12821.95971875,"end":12830.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12830.835968750001,"end":12833.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12834.008468750002,"end":12836.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12836.759093750003,"end":12846.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12846.47909375,"end":12849.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12849.870968750001,"end":12850.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12851.085968750001,"end":12854.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12854.32596875,"end":12859.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12860.45159375,"end":12871.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12872.297843750002,"end":12873.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12874.47471875,"end":12888.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12888.56534375,"end":12902.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12902.33534375,"end":12904.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12904.782218750002,"end":12910.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12911.34659375,"end":12916.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12916.56096875,"end":12922.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12922.450343750003,"end":12926.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12927.141593750002,"end":12933.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12933.503468750001,"end":12938.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12938.582843750002,"end":12945.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12945.906593750002,"end":12947.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12947.99909375,"end":12954.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12954.58034375,"end":12957.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12958.562843750002,"end":12965.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12966.409718750001,"end":12972.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12972.754718750002,"end":12979.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12979.707218750002,"end":12983.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12983.942843750003,"end":12986.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12987.18284375,"end":12988.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12989.02221875,"end":12991.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12991.75596875,"end":12992.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12992.07659375,"end":12994.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12995.164718750002,"end":12997.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12997.577843750001,"end":12998.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12998.387843750003,"end":13007.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13007.68596875,"end":13040.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13040.609093750001,"end":13044.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13044.945968750002,"end":13044.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13045.199093750001,"end":13046.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13046.329718750003,"end":13049.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13049.62034375,"end":13055.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13055.98221875,"end":13059.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13056.066593750002,"end":13056.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13060.015343750001,"end":13071.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13060.84221875,"end":13061.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13063.32284375,"end":13066.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13067.102843750003,"end":13067.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13071.304718750001,"end":13083.083468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13082.340968750003,"end":13087.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13088.06159375,"end":13090.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13091.11596875,"end":13107.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13107.535343750002,"end":13116.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13115.31471875,"end":13115.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13117.06971875,"end":13129.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13128.274718750003,"end":13131.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13132.004093750002,"end":13141.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13140.762218750002,"end":13142.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13142.78721875,"end":13146.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13146.786593750003,"end":13147.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13147.05659375,"end":13149.267218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13149.081593750001,"end":13151.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13150.583468750003,"end":13153.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13153.13159375,"end":13153.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13154.27909375,"end":13163.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13158.970343750003,"end":13159.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13159.527218750001,"end":13160.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13160.489093750002,"end":13160.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13161.34971875,"end":13161.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13161.383468750002,"end":13161.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13161.974093750003,"end":13161.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13164.269093750001,"end":13172.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13172.099093750003,"end":13172.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13172.36909375,"end":13172.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13172.453468750002,"end":13173.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13173.63471875,"end":13174.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13173.769718750002,"end":13174.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13177.44846875,"end":13179.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13192.484093750001,"end":13194.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13202.052218750003,"end":13203.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13203.21659375,"end":13208.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13208.86971875,"end":13211.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13211.738468750002,"end":13212.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13215.51846875,"end":13216.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13217.425343750001,"end":13217.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13217.442218750002,"end":13217.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13217.89784375,"end":13217.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13217.94846875,"end":13218.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13218.20159375,"end":13232.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13233.000968750002,"end":13233.642218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13237.45596875,"end":13237.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13237.945343750001,"end":13238.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13240.66221875,"end":13257.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13258.262843750003,"end":13311.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13312.27971875,"end":13330.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13330.825343750003,"end":13343.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13343.66721875,"end":13348.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13348.442843750003,"end":13352.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13353.25221875,"end":13369.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13369.469093750002,"end":13380.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13379.864093750002,"end":13401.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13401.902843750002,"end":13403.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13403.168468750002,"end":13405.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13405.93596875,"end":13413.782843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13413.90096875,"end":13430.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13430.62409375,"end":13441.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13441.59284375,"end":13447.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13447.347218750001,"end":13471.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13472.54159375,"end":13474.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13474.785968750002,"end":13475.376593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13475.798468750003,"end":13478.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13478.49846875,"end":13483.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13484.08409375,"end":13485.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13485.552218750003,"end":13488.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13488.167843750001,"end":13488.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13488.42096875,"end":13488.454718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13488.454718750003,"end":13488.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13488.72471875,"end":13495.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13495.10346875,"end":13498.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13498.91721875,"end":13500.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13500.840968750003,"end":13507.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13506.86534375,"end":13509.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13508.097218750001,"end":13509.126593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13509.29534375,"end":13510.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13509.86909375,"end":13522.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13522.94721875,"end":13548.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13549.91346875,"end":13560.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13549.94721875,"end":13550.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13560.34221875,"end":13579.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13579.05659375,"end":13583.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13583.477843750003,"end":13599.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13599.492218750001,"end":13602.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13602.833468750003,"end":13632.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13632.347843750002,"end":13633.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13641.81471875,"end":13641.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13642.23659375,"end":13645.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13645.965968750003,"end":13647.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13652.344718750002,"end":13655.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13657.930343750002,"end":13658.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13661.71034375,"end":13662.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13662.098468750002,"end":13662.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13662.317843750003,"end":13679.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13680.25596875,"end":13680.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13681.234718750002,"end":13683.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13682.669093750003,"end":13684.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13683.833468750003,"end":13684.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13684.05284375,"end":13684.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13684.15409375,"end":13686.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13686.027218750001,"end":13686.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13686.870968750001,"end":13687.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13687.02284375,"end":13694.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13695.156593750002,"end":13697.704718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13697.55284375,"end":13698.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13699.155968750001,"end":13699.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13699.814093750003,"end":13700.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13700.52284375,"end":13704.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13704.74159375,"end":13706.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13706.699093750001,"end":13714.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13715.001593750003,"end":13715.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13715.879093750002,"end":13720.907843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13718.460968750001,"end":13719.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13721.22846875,"end":13722.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13721.262218750002,"end":13723.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13722.274718750003,"end":13724.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13724.485343750002,"end":13726.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13726.03784375,"end":13728.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13728.315968750001,"end":13734.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13730.67846875,"end":13730.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13732.652843750002,"end":13733.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13733.00721875,"end":13733.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13733.024093750002,"end":13733.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13733.04096875,"end":13733.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13734.67784375,"end":13771.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13754.708468750003,"end":13755.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13771.97159375,"end":13776.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13776.629093750002,"end":13778.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13778.890343750001,"end":13782.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13782.40034375,"end":13796.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13797.250343750002,"end":13801.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13801.199093750001,"end":13805.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13804.97909375,"end":13827.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13827.692843750003,"end":13876.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13877.052218750003,"end":13896.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13897.15034375,"end":13897.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13897.184093750002,"end":13897.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13898.68596875,"end":13907.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13907.882843750001,"end":13930.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13930.461593750002,"end":13961.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13961.81534375,"end":13973.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13973.391593750002,"end":13987.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":13987.583468750003,"end":14006.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14006.449718750002,"end":14056.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14056.956593750001,"end":14062.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14061.10784375,"end":14063.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14062.035968750002,"end":14062.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14062.086593750002,"end":14062.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14062.10346875,"end":14063.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14063.43659375,"end":14063.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14063.453468750002,"end":14063.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14063.554718750001,"end":14063.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14063.672843750002,"end":14063.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14063.723468750002,"end":14063.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14063.976593750001,"end":14063.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14063.993468750003,"end":14064.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14065.05659375,"end":14065.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14065.680968750003,"end":14078.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14078.52284375,"end":14083.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14084.09159375,"end":14089.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":14088.884093750003,"end":14096.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14096.612843750001,"end":14149.532843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14149.347218750001,"end":14150.376593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14156.417843750001,"end":14160.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14176.110968750003,"end":14176.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14177.02221875,"end":14180.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14180.835968750001,"end":14180.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14180.987843750001,"end":14181.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14181.51096875,"end":14181.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14181.527843750002,"end":14181.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14181.56159375,"end":14181.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14181.679718750001,"end":14181.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14184.784718750001,"end":14184.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14186.910968750002,"end":14202.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14202.891593750002,"end":14204.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14204.96721875,"end":14205.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14205.996593750002,"end":14207.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14208.797843750002,"end":14209.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14210.19846875,"end":14210.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14212.274093750002,"end":14212.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14212.76346875,"end":14216.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14212.949093750001,"end":14217.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14217.066593750002,"end":14219.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14220.37409375,"end":14221.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14222.129093750002,"end":14224.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14222.85471875,"end":14225.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14225.36909375,"end":14225.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14225.976593750001,"end":14226.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14226.90471875,"end":14233.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14227.69784375,"end":14227.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14232.777218750001,"end":14234.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14233.85721875,"end":14241.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14234.886593750001,"end":14235.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14239.814093750003,"end":14241.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14241.67034375,"end":14270.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14270.121593750002,"end":14277.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14276.63534375,"end":14282.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14278.59284375,"end":14279.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14282.997218750003,"end":14289.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14288.937218750001,"end":14289.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14289.797843750002,"end":14289.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14289.81471875,"end":14290.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14290.169093750003,"end":14290.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14290.219718750002,"end":14290.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14290.270343750002,"end":14291.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14291.13096875,"end":14291.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14291.384093750003,"end":14293.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14293.122218750003,"end":14343.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14342.937218750001,"end":14355.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14353.720343750003,"end":14357.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14357.753468750001,"end":14358.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14358.192218750002,"end":14363.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14362.95096875,"end":14366.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14366.950343750003,"end":14366.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14366.984093750001,"end":14370.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14369.515343750001,"end":14369.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14369.97096875,"end":14370.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14370.03846875,"end":14370.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14370.29159375,"end":14370.308468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14370.578468750002,"end":14370.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14370.679718750001,"end":14370.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14370.71346875,"end":14371.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14371.000343750002,"end":14371.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14371.03409375,"end":14371.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":14371.422218750002,"end":14371.439093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14371.439093750003,"end":14371.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14371.489718750003,"end":14372.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14371.523468750001,"end":14371.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14371.540343750003,"end":14377.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14372.19846875,"end":14372.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14372.687843750002,"end":14372.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14377.497218750003,"end":14378.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14377.919093750003,"end":14381.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14383.42034375,"end":14383.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14383.977218750002,"end":14443.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14441.892218750003,"end":14442.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14443.07346875,"end":14453.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14453.14784375,"end":14465.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14467.035968750002,"end":14469.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14469.465968750003,"end":14470.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14470.42784375,"end":14470.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14470.47846875,"end":14489.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14470.52909375,"end":14471.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14490.289718750002,"end":14491.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14491.04909375,"end":14503.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14503.688468750002,"end":14503.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14503.70534375,"end":14503.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14504.414093750001,"end":14508.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14508.19409375,"end":14508.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14509.442843750003,"end":14510.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14510.20221875,"end":14512.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14512.277843750002,"end":14542.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14543.243468750003,"end":14545.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14546.06159375,"end":14546.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14546.11221875,"end":14546.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14546.145968750003,"end":14546.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14546.53409375,"end":14548.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14548.829093750002,"end":14562.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14561.29971875,"end":14561.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14562.008468750002,"end":14563.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14563.223468750002,"end":14568.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14568.285968750002,"end":14572.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14569.754093750002,"end":14570.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14571.89721875,"end":14576.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14576.75721875,"end":14586.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14586.71346875,"end":14586.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14586.747218750003,"end":14618.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14618.97846875,"end":14618.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14618.99534375,"end":14619.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14619.012218750002,"end":14619.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14619.130343750003,"end":14619.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14619.214718750001,"end":14619.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14619.923468750003,"end":14620.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14620.04159375,"end":14620.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14620.09221875,"end":14625.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14624.867843750002,"end":14632.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14625.94784375,"end":14627.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":14630.571593750003,"end":14631.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14631.28034375,"end":14632.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14632.613468750002,"end":14632.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14641.219718750002,"end":14647.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14648.30721875,"end":14650.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14651.192843750003,"end":14653.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14654.11221875,"end":14656.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14657.284718750001,"end":14660.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14660.406593750002,"end":14663.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14663.579093750002,"end":14666.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14666.97096875,"end":14669.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14670.329093750002,"end":14672.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14673.535343750002,"end":14676.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14678.53034375,"end":14683.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14684.706593750001,"end":14697.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14698.71284375,"end":14699.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14699.72534375,"end":14700.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14701.159718750001,"end":14705.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14705.58096875,"end":14709.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14707.032218750002,"end":14707.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14707.065968750001,"end":14707.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14708.31471875,"end":14709.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14710.086593750002,"end":14718.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":14710.74471875,"end":14710.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14710.96409375,"end":14711.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":14712.38159375,"end":14713.157843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14719.249718750001,"end":14724.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14724.19409375,"end":14726.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14726.55659375,"end":14733.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14733.32346875,"end":14734.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14734.62284375,"end":14740.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14740.090343750002,"end":14740.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":14741.625968750002,"end":14742.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14791.74471875,"end":14792.31846875}],"whisperx":[]}},{"id":"16516","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16516","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc6d254b92567b84ce14923de2751cbf947a524d1b3d409a1a42277c2b36fad5455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-13T08:31:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:38:00+08:00","duration":14781,"影片長度":"04:06:21","委員發言時間":"08:31:39 - 12:38:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1817.0297187500003,"end":1821.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1822.5309687500003,"end":1826.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1826.6484687500001,"end":1869.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1870.79346875,"end":1873.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1874.8097187500002,"end":1877.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1878.6909687500001,"end":1880.6147187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1882.2684687500002,"end":1883.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1883.9222187500002,"end":1887.4828437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1888.1578437500002,"end":1888.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1890.6722187500002,"end":1892.1403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1892.5453437500003,"end":1894.1147187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1895.0090937500001,"end":1896.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1898.5528437500002,"end":1901.5228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1902.1640937500001,"end":1903.9022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1905.4209687500002,"end":1905.7753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1907.1084687500002,"end":1909.5384687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1910.8378437500003,"end":1912.3397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1913.38596875,"end":1915.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1916.9465937500001,"end":1920.3384687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1920.84471875,"end":1921.7222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1922.9203437500003,"end":1924.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1926.9197187500001,"end":1929.7547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1930.1090937500003,"end":1934.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1937.3484687500002,"end":1939.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1939.54221875,"end":1942.5965937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1943.76096875,"end":1947.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1948.3172187500002,"end":1951.4559687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1951.6753437500001,"end":1954.1390937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1954.6284687500001,"end":1956.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1965.1078437500003,"end":2095.5515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2097.44159375,"end":2169.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2169.71721875,"end":2173.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2173.69971875,"end":2180.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2180.63534375,"end":2181.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2182.13721875,"end":2203.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2203.6190937500005,"end":2210.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2210.92596875,"end":2218.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2219.7684687500005,"end":2228.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2229.0497187500005,"end":2246.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2246.8865937500004,"end":2262.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2264.2340937500003,"end":2265.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2265.5165937500005,"end":2268.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2269.95471875,"end":2270.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2272.0303437500006,"end":2277.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2277.71721875,"end":2279.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2279.65784375,"end":2280.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2281.14284375,"end":2285.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2285.8172187500004,"end":2289.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2289.34409375,"end":2291.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2292.1453437500004,"end":2294.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2294.6259687500005,"end":2296.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2303.2997187500005,"end":2304.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2304.6328437500006,"end":2305.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2309.30721875,"end":2322.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2323.68471875,"end":2356.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2331.1940937500003,"end":2331.6328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2357.01284375,"end":2376.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2365.02846875,"end":2365.3828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2376.2840937500005,"end":2376.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2376.85784375,"end":2377.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2377.9715937500005,"end":2388.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2388.6365937500004,"end":2393.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2394.4753437500003,"end":2395.4372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2395.8759687500005,"end":2405.8828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2401.57971875,"end":2402.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2405.8828437500006,"end":2431.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2405.89971875,"end":2406.5240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2431.1278437500005,"end":2431.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2431.53284375,"end":2451.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2440.4090937500005,"end":2440.4597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2452.35659375,"end":2464.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2464.9959687500004,"end":2465.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2465.9747187500006,"end":2467.0547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2467.08846875,"end":2473.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2473.02846875,"end":2481.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2473.34909375,"end":2473.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2479.2722187500003,"end":2480.4365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2481.97221875,"end":2483.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2483.57534375,"end":2487.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2488.1484687500006,"end":2488.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2488.16534375,"end":2496.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2496.0290937500004,"end":2503.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2505.17534375,"end":2506.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2506.4072187500005,"end":2507.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2507.03159375,"end":2544.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2508.83721875,"end":2509.0565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2509.74846875,"end":2509.8497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2544.9665937500004,"end":2545.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2545.9453437500006,"end":2545.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2546.94096875,"end":2552.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2549.70846875,"end":2549.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2549.9784687500005,"end":2550.1472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2552.0372187500006,"end":2560.5759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2560.7615937500004,"end":2658.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2658.4678437500006,"end":2658.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2658.48471875,"end":2663.2772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2663.6315937500003,"end":2664.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2664.44159375,"end":2665.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2665.90971875,"end":2672.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2666.7872187500006,"end":2667.2428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2671.69784375,"end":2676.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2676.67596875,"end":2681.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2681.5528437500006,"end":2682.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2681.92409375,"end":2683.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2682.8690937500005,"end":2682.9365937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2683.0378437500003,"end":2708.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2709.1434687500005,"end":2714.8809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2716.1297187500004,"end":2716.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2716.9734687500004,"end":2719.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2720.14596875,"end":2729.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2730.4228437500005,"end":2734.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2734.5740937500004,"end":2738.3034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2736.04221875,"end":2736.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2738.64096875,"end":2743.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2743.0284687500007,"end":2743.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2743.4840937500003,"end":2743.8722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2743.8722187500007,"end":2743.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2743.9734687500004,"end":2744.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2744.07471875,"end":2745.0534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2744.78346875,"end":2744.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2745.74534375,"end":2746.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2746.9772187500002,"end":2747.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2747.09534375,"end":2747.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2747.38221875,"end":2747.6690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2747.6690937500007,"end":2747.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2747.68596875,"end":2748.2597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2748.2597187500005,"end":2748.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2748.47909375,"end":2753.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2748.4959687500004,"end":2748.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2752.19159375,"end":2759.2115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2760.3084687500004,"end":2761.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2763.3797187500004,"end":2772.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2773.6397187500006,"end":2776.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2777.3690937500005,"end":2778.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2779.4615937500002,"end":2781.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2781.6553437500006,"end":2782.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2782.6678437500004,"end":2784.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2785.6884687500005,"end":2786.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2787.46034375,"end":2789.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2790.1940937500003,"end":2791.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2792.47221875,"end":2802.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2793.5859687500006,"end":2797.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2802.5465937500003,"end":2805.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2802.69846875,"end":2803.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2805.24659375,"end":2812.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2807.33909375,"end":2809.0772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2813.26221875,"end":2815.6922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2816.6034687500005,"end":2817.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2818.86471875,"end":2819.5059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2819.03346875,"end":2819.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2819.5059687500006,"end":2820.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2820.6534687500007,"end":2829.1247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2830.3397187500004,"end":2836.9209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2837.71409375,"end":2841.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2842.9453437500006,"end":2851.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2851.4840937500003,"end":2854.6397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2854.9940937500005,"end":2861.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2862.30096875,"end":2864.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2864.5115937500004,"end":2868.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2869.84409375,"end":2879.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2879.42909375,"end":2879.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2880.45846875,"end":2881.6397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2882.1628437500003,"end":2882.8378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2882.8378437500005,"end":2883.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2883.0234687500006,"end":2883.9347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2883.9347187500007,"end":2884.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2884.0359687500004,"end":2884.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2884.96409375,"end":2885.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2885.03159375,"end":2885.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2885.26784375,"end":2889.1659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2885.3522187500002,"end":2887.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2888.6259687500005,"end":2901.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2901.9403437500005,"end":2913.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2914.39409375,"end":2915.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2916.4528437500003,"end":2925.3122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2925.71721875,"end":2926.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2926.25721875,"end":2926.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2926.4090937500005,"end":2926.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2926.67909375,"end":2926.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2926.74659375,"end":2926.8815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2926.8815937500003,"end":2926.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2926.9659687500007,"end":2929.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2929.46346875,"end":2929.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2929.6153437500006,"end":2929.8515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2929.6490937500002,"end":2940.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2931.50534375,"end":2933.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2940.8709687500004,"end":2956.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2956.7840937500005,"end":2958.1678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2959.46721875,"end":2965.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2966.75721875,"end":2969.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2969.94659375,"end":2991.0065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2991.2090937500006,"end":2998.9209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2999.2753437500005,"end":3020.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3020.87534375,"end":3022.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3023.71034375,"end":3024.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3025.5497187500005,"end":3029.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3029.19471875,"end":3029.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3029.43096875,"end":3030.6628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3030.93284375,"end":3042.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3038.0203437500004,"end":3041.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3042.03659375,"end":3043.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3044.3653437500006,"end":3069.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3068.05784375,"end":3071.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3069.34034375,"end":3069.3572187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3070.65659375,"end":3078.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3073.01909375,"end":3076.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3076.61346875,"end":3076.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3077.8622187500005,"end":3078.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3078.25034375,"end":3078.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3078.5709687500002,"end":3086.1140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3078.9422187500004,"end":3079.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3086.4853437500005,"end":3090.2147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3090.90659375,"end":3094.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3094.9734687500004,"end":3099.9684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3097.96034375,"end":3099.5128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3099.9684687500003,"end":3104.9803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3100.5084687500002,"end":3102.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3103.51221875,"end":3104.1365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3105.4022187500004,"end":3107.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3105.55409375,"end":3106.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3107.3934687500005,"end":3112.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3110.61659375,"end":3113.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3114.0928437500006,"end":3115.7803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3116.15159375,"end":3121.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3116.2528437500005,"end":3117.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3117.78846875,"end":3119.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3120.5897187500004,"end":3121.1465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3121.3659687500003,"end":3121.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3121.70346875,"end":3126.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3121.93971875,"end":3122.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3126.88409375,"end":3128.2003437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3129.0440937500007,"end":3137.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3137.98784375,"end":3143.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3139.91159375,"end":3145.9190937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3145.1934687500006,"end":3148.0622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3145.9697187500005,"end":3145.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3146.18909375,"end":3148.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3148.5009687500005,"end":3148.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3148.51784375,"end":3150.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3148.75409375,"end":3150.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3151.11659375,"end":3156.5672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3151.48784375,"end":3154.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3156.01034375,"end":3156.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3158.03534375,"end":3160.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3159.85784375,"end":3164.4140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3162.7097187500003,"end":3169.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3169.2234687500004,"end":3183.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3181.7109687500006,"end":3183.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3184.0565937500005,"end":3188.8659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3184.86659375,"end":3186.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3190.35096875,"end":3194.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3190.3847187500005,"end":3192.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3194.33346875,"end":3195.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3194.7722187500003,"end":3195.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3196.51034375,"end":3198.4003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3196.5778437500003,"end":3198.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3198.72096875,"end":3199.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3199.02471875,"end":3203.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3200.72909375,"end":3202.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3202.3659687500003,"end":3202.4503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3203.4628437500005,"end":3207.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3206.6522187500004,"end":3206.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3207.10784375,"end":3210.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3210.8878437500007,"end":3210.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3210.90471875,"end":3211.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3211.68096875,"end":3211.9678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3211.9678437500006,"end":3213.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3214.1953437500006,"end":3219.6290937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3214.81971875,"end":3224.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3223.1559687500003,"end":3224.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3224.64096875,"end":3227.6447187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3224.6747187500005,"end":3224.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3225.78846875,"end":3226.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3227.18909375,"end":3236.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3233.02784375,"end":3233.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3233.19659375,"end":3233.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3233.2809687500003,"end":3233.6015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3233.6015937500006,"end":3234.3103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3234.3103437500004,"end":3234.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3234.6309687500006,"end":3240.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3237.36471875,"end":3238.0059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3239.64284375,"end":3239.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3240.4697187500005,"end":3243.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3244.0978437500007,"end":3248.4347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3244.23284375,"end":3244.6715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3244.72221875,"end":3246.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3246.46034375,"end":3257.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3249.36284375,"end":3249.8015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3249.8015937500004,"end":3249.8184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3255.25221875,"end":3255.9103437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3257.91846875,"end":3263.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3258.40784375,"end":3260.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3261.2428437500002,"end":3264.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3264.43221875,"end":3276.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3265.81596875,"end":3278.6747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3279.24846875,"end":3283.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3280.0584687500004,"end":3281.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3282.80909375,"end":3288.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3283.9059687500003,"end":3283.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3284.90159375,"end":3284.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3284.98596875,"end":3286.7409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3287.0615937500006,"end":3291.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3292.0059687500006,"end":3296.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3296.6297187500004,"end":3301.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3301.96221875,"end":3305.9784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3303.0253437500005,"end":3305.2022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3305.9784687500005,"end":3306.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3306.0290937500004,"end":3306.9572187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3307.32846875,"end":3307.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3307.34534375,"end":3307.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3307.3622187500005,"end":3307.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3307.39596875,"end":3307.4128437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3307.4128437500003,"end":3307.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3307.63221875,"end":3307.7165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3308.00346875,"end":3308.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3308.05409375,"end":3311.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3313.42034375,"end":3326.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3318.31409375,"end":3318.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3318.41534375,"end":3318.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3323.24159375,"end":3331.4259687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3326.02596875,"end":3332.5059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3332.9615937500002,"end":3333.3497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3334.46346875,"end":3335.8809687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3335.6784687500003,"end":3341.9728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3338.19284375,"end":3341.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3341.9728437500007,"end":3342.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3342.0234687500006,"end":3342.2597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3342.2597187500005,"end":3342.3272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3342.3272187500006,"end":3344.3184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3342.41159375,"end":3342.4284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3342.4284687500003,"end":3343.1540937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3343.1540937500004,"end":3343.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3344.1159687500003,"end":3344.1328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3344.1328437500006,"end":3345.3984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3344.3184687500006,"end":3344.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3344.75721875,"end":3344.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3344.9765937500006,"end":3345.3478437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3346.07346875,"end":3346.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3346.5459687500006,"end":3362.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3346.79909375,"end":3348.2165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3349.2459687500004,"end":3349.6847187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3349.6847187500007,"end":3349.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3349.70159375,"end":3349.7184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3351.2878437500003,"end":3351.3047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3351.3047187500006,"end":3351.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3351.9628437500005,"end":3353.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3353.02596875,"end":3353.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3353.97096875,"end":3354.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3354.03846875,"end":3355.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3355.65846875,"end":3355.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3355.84409375,"end":3356.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3356.0465937500003,"end":3358.4259687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3359.99534375,"end":3360.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3362.30721875,"end":3364.1972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3363.45471875,"end":3366.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3364.58534375,"end":3370.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3369.0740937500004,"end":3385.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3370.79534375,"end":3373.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3373.4615937500002,"end":3374.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3374.7440937500005,"end":3376.4822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3383.70471875,"end":3396.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3397.1034687500005,"end":3398.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3398.80784375,"end":3415.2947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3417.85971875,"end":3418.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3419.0409687500005,"end":3421.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3421.8759687500005,"end":3422.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3424.49159375,"end":3426.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3426.8878437500007,"end":3429.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3429.38534375,"end":3438.1603437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3438.66659375,"end":3439.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3441.06284375,"end":3442.8347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3442.8347187500003,"end":3442.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3444.15096875,"end":3448.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3449.44971875,"end":3459.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3459.62534375,"end":3470.4422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3471.1678437500004,"end":3473.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3472.88909375,"end":3473.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3473.98596875,"end":3474.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3474.03659375,"end":3474.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3474.2559687500006,"end":3474.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3474.34034375,"end":3477.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3474.9647187500004,"end":3475.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3478.00221875,"end":3482.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3483.1490937500002,"end":3487.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3487.70534375,"end":3495.3497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3496.2272187500002,"end":3503.6522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3503.9053437500006,"end":3508.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3507.95534375,"end":3510.7734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3510.7565937500003,"end":3520.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3514.6209687500004,"end":3514.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3516.1228437500004,"end":3521.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3521.57346875,"end":3525.0665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3521.6072187500004,"end":3524.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3525.4209687500006,"end":3526.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3526.9903437500006,"end":3528.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3528.5597187500007,"end":3530.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3531.58034375,"end":3532.4578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3533.1834687500004,"end":3538.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3537.5372187500006,"end":3537.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3537.6553437500006,"end":3537.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3537.8915937500005,"end":3538.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3538.63409375,"end":3544.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3544.97909375,"end":3545.2490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3545.21534375,"end":3561.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3547.9490937500004,"end":3550.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3550.15971875,"end":3550.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3552.57284375,"end":3552.6065937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3552.6065937500007,"end":3553.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3553.09596875,"end":3553.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3562.1240937500006,"end":3565.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3565.02659375,"end":3570.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3570.94971875,"end":3581.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3573.3965937500006,"end":3574.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3580.4840937500003,"end":3583.2009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3583.9265937500004,"end":3590.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3591.38534375,"end":3596.4647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3596.86971875,"end":3599.4684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3600.04221875,"end":3601.8478437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3601.9659687500007,"end":3603.8897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3604.44659375,"end":3606.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3607.04534375,"end":3611.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3610.25159375,"end":3620.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3612.22596875,"end":3615.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3615.0272187500004,"end":3615.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3615.31409375,"end":3615.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3615.41534375,"end":3615.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3616.4784687500005,"end":3623.1609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3623.68409375,"end":3626.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3627.10971875,"end":3657.2315937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3637.79159375,"end":3642.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3658.1090937500003,"end":3660.1678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3660.74159375,"end":3661.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3662.00721875,"end":3664.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3662.85096875,"end":3665.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3664.8759687500005,"end":3684.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3684.6365937500004,"end":3689.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3689.49659375,"end":3695.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3696.4490937500004,"end":3700.1784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3700.6172187500006,"end":3708.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3706.77659375,"end":3709.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3709.3584687500006,"end":3719.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3719.51721875,"end":3727.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3719.7703437500004,"end":3719.7872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3719.7872187500006,"end":3725.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3727.9715937500005,"end":3728.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3728.0390937500006,"end":3740.1047187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3728.5790937500005,"end":3728.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3740.3915937500005,"end":3745.8253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3746.2303437500004,"end":3761.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3761.82284375,"end":3767.7628437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3770.00721875,"end":3773.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3775.1034687500005,"end":3776.6559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3777.0778437500003,"end":3778.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3789.12659375,"end":3789.1603437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3789.1603437500007,"end":3791.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3792.50159375,"end":3796.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3797.3953437500004,"end":3798.3740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3798.9647187500004,"end":3800.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3801.0909687500007,"end":3802.0528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3802.84596875,"end":3806.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3807.0984687500004,"end":3810.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3811.4353437500004,"end":3814.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3815.40096875,"end":3821.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3822.5222187500003,"end":3825.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3826.1334687500002,"end":3827.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3828.6309687500006,"end":3829.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3830.5040937500007,"end":3831.7697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3832.4278437500006,"end":3834.4022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3835.9884687500007,"end":3839.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3840.1903437500005,"end":3841.9284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3842.5528437500006,"end":3844.0040937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3845.0840937500006,"end":3848.5265937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3849.13409375,"end":3851.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3854.0109687500008,"end":3855.4453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3856.13721875,"end":3859.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3859.8834687500002,"end":3859.9172187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3859.9172187500008,"end":3860.3728437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3859.98471875,"end":3867.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3867.5447187500004,"end":3870.0422187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3870.48096875,"end":3875.7459687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3876.4715937500005,"end":3878.6990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3879.1378437500007,"end":3880.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3880.96034375,"end":3881.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3882.1247187500003,"end":3883.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3883.6434687500005,"end":3886.7653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3887.17034375,"end":3888.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3889.1278437500005,"end":3890.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3890.8828437500006,"end":3895.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3896.09721875,"end":3901.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3901.5309687500003,"end":3904.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3904.9734687500004,"end":3907.8759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3908.4159687500005,"end":3919.4522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3920.1778437500006,"end":3921.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3925.1559687500003,"end":3926.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3926.2528437500005,"end":3929.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3929.40846875,"end":3936.2090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3936.3947187500007,"end":3950.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3951.9365937500006,"end":3956.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3958.2647187500006,"end":3959.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3959.80034375,"end":3978.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3981.97409375,"end":3983.2228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3983.6953437500006,"end":3985.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3985.46721875,"end":3990.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3991.18784375,"end":3993.3478437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3993.8034687500003,"end":3996.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3999.7097187500003,"end":3999.7265937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3999.7265937500006,"end":4009.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4001.2453437500008,"end":4002.1228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4009.02471875,"end":4010.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4011.13409375,"end":4013.0409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4013.4797187500008,"end":4018.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4019.09909375,"end":4020.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4021.3097187500007,"end":4022.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4023.0984687500004,"end":4024.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4025.61284375,"end":4026.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4027.4353437500004,"end":4033.1222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4037.18909375,"end":4038.3534687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4039.39971875,"end":4039.4334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4039.4334687500004,"end":4039.4503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4039.4503437500007,"end":4041.3740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4041.3740937500006,"end":4048.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4041.4753437500003,"end":4043.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4048.02284375,"end":4048.5459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4048.5459687500006,"end":4048.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4048.57971875,"end":4048.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4048.9678437500006,"end":4049.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4049.0353437500007,"end":4050.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4050.68909375,"end":4054.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4054.3172187500004,"end":4064.2734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4064.71221875,"end":4076.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4077.1153437500006,"end":4078.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4078.9715937500005,"end":4080.6084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4082.12721875,"end":4087.3078437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4082.31284375,"end":4082.5153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4085.3165937500007,"end":4087.7297187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4087.62846875,"end":4091.0709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4092.67409375,"end":4101.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4101.9384687500005,"end":4105.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4103.64284375,"end":4103.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4105.38096875,"end":4106.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4106.12346875,"end":4108.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4108.99221875,"end":4109.565968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4109.565968749999,"end":4109.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4109.68409375,"end":4109.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4109.73471875,"end":4109.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4109.97096875,"end":4109.987843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4109.987843749999,"end":4112.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4111.50659375,"end":4115.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4112.55284375,"end":4114.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4115.13471875,"end":4115.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4115.421593749999,"end":4117.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4117.85159375,"end":4121.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4121.96909375,"end":4122.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4122.137843750001,"end":4123.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4122.374093750001,"end":4123.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4124.483468750001,"end":4125.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4126.2215937500005,"end":4126.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4127.08221875,"end":4128.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4132.110968749999,"end":4135.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4136.17784375,"end":4138.253468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4138.5740937499995,"end":4140.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4140.362843749999,"end":4141.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4142.4384687500005,"end":4146.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4146.792218750001,"end":4151.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4151.2978437500005,"end":4158.689093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4159.27971875,"end":4160.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4160.96721875,"end":4162.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4164.34221875,"end":4165.202843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4165.97909375,"end":4167.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4167.649718750001,"end":4169.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4169.50596875,"end":4172.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4172.897843750001,"end":4175.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4175.749718749999,"end":4176.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4177.2684687500005,"end":4180.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4181.55471875,"end":4182.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4183.61346875,"end":4185.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4185.30096875,"end":4187.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4187.325968749999,"end":4190.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4190.63346875,"end":4192.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4192.675343749999,"end":4193.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4193.940968749999,"end":4195.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4195.89846875,"end":4196.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4197.14721875,"end":4198.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4198.632218750001,"end":4202.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4202.108468750001,"end":4206.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4207.98096875,"end":4208.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4208.95971875,"end":4209.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4210.157843749999,"end":4212.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4212.58784375,"end":4213.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4213.448468750001,"end":4217.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4217.81909375,"end":4219.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4220.2997187500005,"end":4224.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4224.72096875,"end":4234.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4235.87534375,"end":4236.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4236.01034375,"end":4243.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4243.637843750001,"end":4245.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4246.13534375,"end":4248.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4249.257218750001,"end":4249.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4250.45534375,"end":4251.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4252.5478437500005,"end":4253.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4253.982218749999,"end":4255.534718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4255.8553437499995,"end":4259.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4260.52971875,"end":4262.284718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4264.208468750001,"end":4265.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4266.57096875,"end":4268.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4268.69721875,"end":4270.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4270.907843749999,"end":4273.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4273.489718750001,"end":4274.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4275.63284375,"end":4276.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4276.5272187499995,"end":4277.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4277.92784375,"end":4280.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4281.10034375,"end":4281.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4282.399718750001,"end":4288.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4288.356593750001,"end":4289.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4290.314093749999,"end":4291.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4291.259093750001,"end":4292.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4292.96346875,"end":4297.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4296.507218750001,"end":4297.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4298.54909375,"end":4299.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4299.81471875,"end":4300.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4301.11409375,"end":4303.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4303.392218749999,"end":4304.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4305.29909375,"end":4306.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4306.85159375,"end":4308.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4309.65284375,"end":4319.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4320.11534375,"end":4321.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4322.30909375,"end":4323.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4324.60409375,"end":4327.675343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4328.21534375,"end":4328.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4329.44721875,"end":4330.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4330.780343750001,"end":4332.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4333.22721875,"end":4334.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4335.032843749999,"end":4336.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4337.901593750001,"end":4340.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4342.8290937500005,"end":4343.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4343.95971875,"end":4346.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4346.77784375,"end":4348.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4349.376593749999,"end":4356.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4356.413468750001,"end":4359.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4360.1259687500005,"end":4362.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4362.319718750001,"end":4363.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4364.59784375,"end":4366.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4366.47096875,"end":4368.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4368.34409375,"end":4369.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4370.45346875,"end":4372.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4372.51221875,"end":4374.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4375.04346875,"end":4378.874093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4378.97534375,"end":4382.046593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4382.569718750001,"end":4383.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4384.1728437500005,"end":4387.4803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4387.817843750001,"end":4398.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4398.4490937499995,"end":4403.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4403.30909375,"end":4404.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4404.76034375,"end":4405.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4407.62909375,"end":4412.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4413.501593749999,"end":4417.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4418.17596875,"end":4419.407843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4420.99409375,"end":4422.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4423.32284375,"end":4425.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4426.022843750001,"end":4430.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4431.91221875,"end":4433.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4433.565968749999,"end":4435.860968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4438.493468750001,"end":4439.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4440.7040937500005,"end":4443.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4443.927218750001,"end":4445.800343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4446.20534375,"end":4447.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4448.02784375,"end":4449.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4450.356593750001,"end":4451.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4452.364718750001,"end":4452.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4453.680968750001,"end":4455.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4455.85784375,"end":4462.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4462.827218750001,"end":4464.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4465.493468750001,"end":4465.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4466.08409375,"end":4468.311593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4468.767218749999,"end":4471.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4472.44596875,"end":4474.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4474.97721875,"end":4476.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4476.833468750001,"end":4478.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4479.58409375,"end":4481.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4481.5584687499995,"end":4482.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4483.27971875,"end":4489.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4489.827218750001,"end":4491.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4492.66221875,"end":4496.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4497.083468750001,"end":4502.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4503.1415937500005,"end":4510.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4510.98846875,"end":4512.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4512.557843750001,"end":4516.725968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4517.282843749999,"end":4519.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4519.814093749999,"end":4521.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4521.85596875,"end":4522.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4523.610968749999,"end":4525.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4525.88909375,"end":4527.829718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4528.42034375,"end":4532.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4533.263468749999,"end":4534.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4534.731593750001,"end":4536.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4537.1278437500005,"end":4538.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4539.794093750001,"end":4540.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4540.78971875,"end":4541.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4542.86534375,"end":4542.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4542.89909375,"end":4542.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4542.94971875,"end":4542.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4542.966593749999,"end":4543.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4543.9959687499995,"end":4548.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4549.04159375,"end":4552.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4553.530343750001,"end":4563.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4561.37721875,"end":4562.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4564.212218750001,"end":4566.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4564.2459687499995,"end":4564.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4565.62971875,"end":4566.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4566.86159375,"end":4567.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4567.18221875,"end":4569.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4567.23284375,"end":4572.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4572.514718750001,"end":4575.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4575.2822187500005,"end":4581.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4581.39096875,"end":4584.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4585.03596875,"end":4586.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4588.19159375,"end":4588.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4589.997218750001,"end":4601.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4590.0478437500005,"end":4591.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4591.61721875,"end":4592.612843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4602.38346875,"end":4604.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4605.269093749999,"end":4607.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4607.6990937499995,"end":4622.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4613.892218749999,"end":4615.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4615.022843750001,"end":4616.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4622.515343749999,"end":4624.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4625.940968749999,"end":4636.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4637.12909375,"end":4642.815968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4643.25471875,"end":4645.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4646.69721875,"end":4648.300343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4648.60409375,"end":4654.814093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4655.16846875,"end":4664.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4664.753468749999,"end":4665.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4665.647843750001,"end":4676.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4676.92034375,"end":4682.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4683.231593750001,"end":4684.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4684.716593749999,"end":4694.436593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4694.993468750001,"end":4695.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4697.49096875,"end":4701.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4701.72659375,"end":4706.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4706.92409375,"end":4711.530968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4711.56471875,"end":4713.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4713.741593750001,"end":4715.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4715.985968749999,"end":4717.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4718.36534375,"end":4720.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4720.94721875,"end":4722.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4722.550343750001,"end":4726.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4726.634093750001,"end":4731.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4731.84846875,"end":4734.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4734.548468749999,"end":4736.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4736.809718750001,"end":4741.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4739.08784375,"end":4743.1209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4743.593468749999,"end":4745.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4745.483468750001,"end":4749.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4750.22534375,"end":4759.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4760.53596875,"end":4762.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4762.577843749999,"end":4765.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4765.817843750001,"end":4770.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4771.167218750001,"end":4774.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4774.3397187499995,"end":4775.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4775.77409375,"end":4782.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4776.685343749999,"end":4786.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4784.5322187500005,"end":4789.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4790.2528437500005,"end":4791.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4791.501593749999,"end":4792.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4793.340968750001,"end":4793.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4794.62346875,"end":4795.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4795.0790937500005,"end":4795.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4799.83784375,"end":4803.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4817.87721875,"end":4826.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4827.10784375,"end":4830.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4831.00596875,"end":4834.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4835.49471875,"end":4836.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4837.41846875,"end":4844.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4845.265343749999,"end":4850.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4852.09971875,"end":4852.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4852.639718750001,"end":4853.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4855.4072187500005,"end":4859.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4855.69409375,"end":4856.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4859.9803437499995,"end":4865.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4865.97096875,"end":4867.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4867.55721875,"end":4868.991593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4869.413468750001,"end":4879.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4880.753468750001,"end":4882.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4882.79534375,"end":4884.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4885.09034375,"end":4887.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4888.14471875,"end":4891.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4893.25784375,"end":4895.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4896.16034375,"end":4897.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4898.472218750001,"end":4907.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4907.21346875,"end":4910.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4911.887843750001,"end":4916.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4916.899718750001,"end":4918.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4919.31284375,"end":4924.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4925.06721875,"end":4929.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4929.454718749999,"end":4931.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4932.72846875,"end":4934.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4936.23846875,"end":4943.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4943.714093750001,"end":4948.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4948.70909375,"end":4955.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4956.555968750001,"end":4961.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4962.44534375,"end":4964.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4964.335343750001,"end":4965.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4965.8709687499995,"end":4975.017218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4976.046593749999,"end":4979.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4980.366593750001,"end":4984.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4984.686593750001,"end":4987.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4987.960343750001,"end":4988.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4989.66471875,"end":4990.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4991.014718750001,"end":4995.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4995.99284375,"end":4998.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4998.99659375,"end":5000.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5001.274718750001,"end":5013.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5014.60596875,"end":5018.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5019.415343750001,"end":5026.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5027.009093750001,"end":5034.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5035.5478437500005,"end":5042.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5043.68159375,"end":5044.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5044.87971875,"end":5047.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5047.83284375,"end":5075.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5076.30096875,"end":5085.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5086.206593750001,"end":5090.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5090.560343749999,"end":5091.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5092.33221875,"end":5099.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5100.16221875,"end":5110.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5111.18159375,"end":5112.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5112.2615937499995,"end":5114.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5114.944718750001,"end":5118.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5119.298468749999,"end":5139.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5140.307843750001,"end":5147.985968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5148.272843750001,"end":5152.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5152.42409375,"end":5161.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5156.8622187500005,"end":5158.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5159.46096875,"end":5162.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5161.300343750001,"end":5163.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5163.1903437500005,"end":5164.067843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5164.067843750001,"end":5173.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5165.4853437500005,"end":5165.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5168.472218750001,"end":5169.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5172.15096875,"end":5172.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5173.028468750001,"end":5188.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5188.38471875,"end":5189.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5189.144093750001,"end":5191.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5192.670968750001,"end":5207.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5207.622218750001,"end":5224.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5224.075343750001,"end":5224.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5224.4803437499995,"end":5225.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5226.10034375,"end":5229.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5229.9647187499995,"end":5253.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5254.4334687499995,"end":5256.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5256.407843749999,"end":5261.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5262.263468749999,"end":5264.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5264.92971875,"end":5269.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5269.78971875,"end":5270.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5271.544718749999,"end":5273.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5273.63721875,"end":5275.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5275.61159375,"end":5287.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5288.11596875,"end":5289.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5290.46159375,"end":5290.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5291.40659375,"end":5301.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5301.2615937499995,"end":5304.501593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5305.530968749999,"end":5309.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5310.5428437499995,"end":5311.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5312.07846875,"end":5316.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5316.837218750001,"end":5363.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5364.81284375,"end":5365.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5366.31471875,"end":5369.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5370.06096875,"end":5388.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5378.565968750001,"end":5378.937218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5387.93159375,"end":5393.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5393.753468750001,"end":5394.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5395.154093749999,"end":5395.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5396.4872187500005,"end":5404.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5405.009093750001,"end":5424.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5424.887843750001,"end":5425.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5426.237843750001,"end":5428.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5428.9715937500005,"end":5469.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5468.762843750001,"end":5474.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5474.989718750001,"end":5526.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5526.087218750001,"end":5526.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5526.4247187500005,"end":5526.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5527.774718750001,"end":5528.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5529.71534375,"end":5532.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5542.067843750001,"end":5544.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5544.63284375,"end":5544.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5544.649718750001,"end":5545.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5545.79721875,"end":5545.999718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5548.345343749999,"end":5549.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5549.796593749999,"end":5550.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5550.38721875,"end":5551.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5551.61909375,"end":5569.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5570.18159375,"end":5578.484093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5579.20971875,"end":5580.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5580.81284375,"end":5589.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5590.499093750001,"end":5592.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5592.33846875,"end":5596.624718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5596.92846875,"end":5602.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5602.37909375,"end":5603.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5603.83034375,"end":5605.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5605.905968749999,"end":5609.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5610.124718749999,"end":5613.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5613.8709687499995,"end":5634.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5634.30659375,"end":5640.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5641.00596875,"end":5650.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5651.670968750001,"end":5653.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5653.577843749999,"end":5666.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5666.92596875,"end":5678.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5678.21534375,"end":5692.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5692.55909375,"end":5700.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5701.1990937499995,"end":5703.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5703.81471875,"end":5728.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5728.80659375,"end":5754.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5754.8447187500005,"end":5757.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5757.89909375,"end":5768.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5769.458468750001,"end":5771.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5772.225968750001,"end":5775.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5776.27596875,"end":5788.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5788.51034375,"end":5789.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5789.202218750001,"end":5790.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5790.75471875,"end":5791.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5791.75034375,"end":5793.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5794.51784375,"end":5795.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5796.222218750001,"end":5798.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5799.52971875,"end":5800.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5801.385968750001,"end":5804.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5805.72284375,"end":5807.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5808.135968750001,"end":5811.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5812.489718750001,"end":5813.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5814.24471875,"end":5817.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5818.024718750001,"end":5820.218468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5821.0790937500005,"end":5828.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5828.58846875,"end":5830.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5830.495343750001,"end":5848.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5849.5809687500005,"end":5850.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5851.3865937499995,"end":5851.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5852.9559687500005,"end":5856.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5856.63471875,"end":5857.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5858.92971875,"end":5860.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5860.904093749999,"end":5863.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5864.616593750001,"end":5865.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5866.13534375,"end":5869.729718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5870.21909375,"end":5875.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5875.956593750001,"end":5878.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5879.83784375,"end":5923.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5884.46159375,"end":5884.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5884.51221875,"end":5885.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5897.421593749999,"end":5897.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5919.84846875,"end":5920.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5923.74659375,"end":5935.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5935.8290937500005,"end":5937.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5936.63909375,"end":5964.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5964.14534375,"end":5970.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5970.94596875,"end":5971.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5972.093468749999,"end":5974.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5974.388468749999,"end":5986.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5986.200968749999,"end":5986.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5986.673468750001,"end":6046.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6047.30534375,"end":6059.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6059.286593750001,"end":6066.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6066.795968750001,"end":6068.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6068.55096875,"end":6070.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6070.66034375,"end":6071.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6071.655968749999,"end":6072.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6072.735968750001,"end":6081.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6084.042218750001,"end":6086.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6086.92784375,"end":6095.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6086.995343750001,"end":6087.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6095.382218750001,"end":6096.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6097.069718750001,"end":6103.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6102.33471875,"end":6111.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6103.7353437500005,"end":6106.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6111.81846875,"end":6111.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6111.936593750001,"end":6124.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6124.47471875,"end":6133.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6133.41846875,"end":6137.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6137.78909375,"end":6146.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6146.64846875,"end":6147.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6146.952218750001,"end":6150.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6149.517218750001,"end":6168.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6168.079718750001,"end":6173.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6174.62721875,"end":6181.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6175.55534375,"end":6175.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6182.08596875,"end":6212.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6212.899718750001,"end":6213.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6213.15284375,"end":6213.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6213.81096875,"end":6213.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6214.013468749999,"end":6214.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6215.44784375,"end":6217.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6236.74409375,"end":6238.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6239.0897187499995,"end":6239.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6243.25784375,"end":6245.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6246.312218749999,"end":6250.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6250.530968749999,"end":6253.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6253.872218750001,"end":6256.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6257.382218750001,"end":6260.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6260.74034375,"end":6264.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6263.54159375,"end":6263.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6265.110968750001,"end":6268.5028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6268.73909375,"end":6279.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6279.825968749999,"end":6282.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6282.86346875,"end":6286.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6287.16659375,"end":6292.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6293.055968750001,"end":6301.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6302.72534375,"end":6306.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6306.67409375,"end":6313.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6313.727843750001,"end":6319.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6319.718468749999,"end":6321.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6321.30471875,"end":6322.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6322.435343749999,"end":6324.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6325.439093750001,"end":6326.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6327.042218750001,"end":6353.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6353.704718750001,"end":6354.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6355.1053437499995,"end":6360.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6360.640343749999,"end":6361.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6362.192843750001,"end":6375.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6375.591593749999,"end":6384.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6385.1259687500005,"end":6393.090968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6393.76596875,"end":6398.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6398.87909375,"end":6400.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6401.190968750001,"end":6404.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6405.52784375,"end":6409.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6410.0165937500005,"end":6416.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6417.44159375,"end":6421.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6422.234093749999,"end":6437.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6435.37971875,"end":6436.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6437.69159375,"end":6438.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6438.40034375,"end":6439.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6439.32846875,"end":6439.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6439.41284375,"end":6439.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6439.59846875,"end":6449.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6446.83784375,"end":6447.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6448.94721875,"end":6452.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6452.102843750001,"end":6452.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6452.372843749999,"end":6452.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6452.423468750001,"end":6461.468468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6457.04721875,"end":6457.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6458.78534375,"end":6459.173468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6461.92409375,"end":6462.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6463.64534375,"end":6466.345343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6466.632218750001,"end":6468.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6469.635968750001,"end":6473.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6473.55096875,"end":6475.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6476.6728437500005,"end":6478.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6479.052218750001,"end":6479.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6479.845343750001,"end":6484.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6484.57034375,"end":6488.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6489.126593750001,"end":6489.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6490.122218750001,"end":6491.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6491.657843750001,"end":6492.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6493.159718750001,"end":6494.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6494.96534375,"end":6495.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6495.28596875,"end":6495.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6495.876593750001,"end":6512.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6502.154093749999,"end":6502.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6510.96284375,"end":6511.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6511.857218749999,"end":6528.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6522.269093750001,"end":6522.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6522.30284375,"end":6522.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6529.390343749999,"end":6529.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6530.234093749999,"end":6533.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6534.19971875,"end":6535.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6535.9715937500005,"end":6540.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6539.73471875,"end":6544.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6542.670968750001,"end":6552.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6553.403468750001,"end":6558.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6558.06096875,"end":6560.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6559.88346875,"end":6560.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6560.54159375,"end":6565.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6563.747843749999,"end":6564.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6565.013468749999,"end":6577.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6571.965968750001,"end":6572.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6573.602843750001,"end":6575.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6577.83846875,"end":6582.225968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6582.225968750001,"end":6582.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6582.360968750001,"end":6583.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":6583.52534375,"end":6583.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6584.53784375,"end":6596.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6596.73846875,"end":6599.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6599.48909375,"end":6618.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6618.30471875,"end":6619.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6619.73909375,"end":6620.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6620.8865937499995,"end":6641.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6641.575343750001,"end":6645.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6645.86159375,"end":6649.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6649.70909375,"end":6656.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6656.67846875,"end":6658.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6658.55159375,"end":6660.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6660.89721875,"end":6673.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6674.17784375,"end":6675.645968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6675.86534375,"end":6677.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6678.10971875,"end":6681.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6681.923468750001,"end":6692.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6693.06096875,"end":6693.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6694.42784375,"end":6697.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6698.22471875,"end":6701.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6701.380343750001,"end":6702.173468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6702.544718749999,"end":6703.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6703.52346875,"end":6705.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6706.4090937500005,"end":6708.602843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6709.14284375,"end":6729.780968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6729.122843749999,"end":6729.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6730.75971875,"end":6747.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6748.107218749999,"end":6752.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6752.49471875,"end":6755.852843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6756.122843749999,"end":6758.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6758.620343750001,"end":6759.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6761.30346875,"end":6761.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6761.97846875,"end":6762.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6762.552218750001,"end":6762.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6762.56909375,"end":6762.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6762.974093750001,"end":6768.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6769.200968749999,"end":6770.2303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6769.89284375,"end":6770.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6771.310343749999,"end":6772.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6773.1834687499995,"end":6780.405968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6780.70971875,"end":6783.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6783.67971875,"end":6785.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6783.81471875,"end":6784.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6788.2528437500005,"end":6788.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6788.26971875,"end":6788.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6788.286593750001,"end":6789.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6789.24846875,"end":6789.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6789.501593750001,"end":6790.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6790.80096875,"end":6790.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6790.952843749999,"end":6791.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6791.425343750001,"end":6797.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6795.47534375,"end":6801.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6801.66846875,"end":6803.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6803.997218750001,"end":6804.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6805.04346875,"end":6805.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6805.9715937500005,"end":6813.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6810.25784375,"end":6818.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6817.24409375,"end":6817.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6818.6278437500005,"end":6818.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6818.64471875,"end":6818.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6818.67846875,"end":6819.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6819.62346875,"end":6820.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6819.67409375,"end":6820.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6820.97346875,"end":6826.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6825.310343749999,"end":6830.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6826.42409375,"end":6826.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6833.528468750001,"end":6836.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6836.02596875,"end":6836.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6836.36346875,"end":6836.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6836.41409375,"end":6836.4647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6836.4647187499995,"end":6836.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6836.49846875,"end":6836.515343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6836.751593750001,"end":6836.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6836.83596875,"end":6839.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6837.62909375,"end":6838.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6839.468468749999,"end":6849.087218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6851.34846875,"end":6855.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6855.7528437500005,"end":6859.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6860.055968750001,"end":6862.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6863.07659375,"end":6868.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6868.03784375,"end":6868.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6869.11784375,"end":6873.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6874.0115937499995,"end":6877.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6877.859093749999,"end":6883.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6885.419093750001,"end":6886.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6888.743468750001,"end":6894.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6894.58221875,"end":6897.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6897.889718750001,"end":6903.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6903.087218750001,"end":6904.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6905.21346875,"end":6907.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6908.014718750001,"end":6909.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6910.529093749999,"end":6912.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6913.262843750001,"end":6917.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6919.55721875,"end":6920.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6921.43034375,"end":6922.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6922.493468750001,"end":6925.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6925.919093750001,"end":6929.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6930.30659375,"end":6942.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6942.94596875,"end":6943.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6943.78971875,"end":6948.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6948.734093750001,"end":6956.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6959.095343750001,"end":6961.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6961.356593750001,"end":6967.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6967.38096875,"end":6970.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6970.857218749999,"end":6977.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6978.2147187499995,"end":6981.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6982.04534375,"end":6983.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6985.302218750001,"end":6986.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6986.7197187500005,"end":6992.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6992.03534375,"end":6992.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6992.96346875,"end":6993.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6993.030968750001,"end":6994.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6994.819718750001,"end":6998.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":6999.15659375,"end":7000.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7001.198468750001,"end":7001.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7002.24471875,"end":7003.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7004.100968750001,"end":7005.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7006.14284375,"end":7011.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7011.86346875,"end":7014.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7014.02346875,"end":7014.040343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7014.546593750001,"end":7018.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7015.03596875,"end":7015.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7018.88346875,"end":7019.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7021.19534375,"end":7023.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7021.2459687499995,"end":7022.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7022.78159375,"end":7024.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7024.57034375,"end":7024.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7024.587218750001,"end":7030.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7024.89096875,"end":7025.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7029.66659375,"end":7033.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7032.687218750001,"end":7034.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7034.25659375,"end":7034.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7034.30721875,"end":7035.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7035.640343750001,"end":7036.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7036.399718750001,"end":7036.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7036.450343750001,"end":7038.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7038.86346875,"end":7044.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7043.36909375,"end":7044.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7045.1747187500005,"end":7050.085343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7050.52409375,"end":7052.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7052.41409375,"end":7060.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7061.88096875,"end":7063.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7064.192843750001,"end":7072.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7067.16284375,"end":7067.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7072.74846875,"end":7075.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7076.30909375,"end":7077.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7077.81096875,"end":7080.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7081.860968750001,"end":7084.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7084.544093750001,"end":7087.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7088.25659375,"end":7089.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7090.19721875,"end":7092.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7094.010968750001,"end":7094.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7094.044718749999,"end":7095.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7096.542218750001,"end":7098.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7099.259093750001,"end":7103.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7103.96721875,"end":7106.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7105.33409375,"end":7105.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7106.02596875,"end":7116.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7114.9697187500005,"end":7116.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7116.80909375,"end":7118.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7118.96909375,"end":7119.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7119.76221875,"end":7121.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7121.939093750001,"end":7122.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7123.305968750001,"end":7126.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7138.22346875,"end":7140.450968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7140.80534375,"end":7141.716593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7147.36971875,"end":7148.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7148.567843750001,"end":7149.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7150.45784375,"end":7151.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7151.97659375,"end":7152.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7154.187218750001,"end":7154.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7155.67221875,"end":7158.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7158.608468750001,"end":7160.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7161.02159375,"end":7163.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7164.48096875,"end":7165.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7167.19784375,"end":7169.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7170.6572187500005,"end":7170.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7171.46721875,"end":7172.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7174.55534375,"end":7174.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7176.124718750001,"end":7176.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7176.968468750001,"end":7179.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7180.14096875,"end":7214.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7197.30284375,"end":7197.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7208.794718749999,"end":7208.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7213.80659375,"end":7216.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7216.13534375,"end":7218.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7216.42221875,"end":7217.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7217.991593750001,"end":7218.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7218.936593750001,"end":7221.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7223.003468750001,"end":7226.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7226.26034375,"end":7227.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7228.65659375,"end":7230.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7230.512843750001,"end":7232.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7233.786593750001,"end":7237.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7237.718468750001,"end":7238.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7237.75221875,"end":7238.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7238.86596875,"end":7250.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7248.9403437500005,"end":7252.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7252.214093750001,"end":7254.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7254.44159375,"end":7256.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7254.76221875,"end":7255.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7257.00659375,"end":7258.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7259.30159375,"end":7261.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7262.91284375,"end":7268.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7269.42659375,"end":7270.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7270.92846875,"end":7271.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7273.00409375,"end":7274.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7275.130343750001,"end":7276.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7276.93596875,"end":7277.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7278.70784375,"end":7279.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7280.294093750001,"end":7283.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7283.97284375,"end":7287.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7288.22534375,"end":7289.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7290.4022187499995,"end":7292.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7292.62971875,"end":7294.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7295.430968750001,"end":7297.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7298.856593750001,"end":7301.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7301.7928437499995,"end":7304.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7305.48846875,"end":7306.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7307.192843750001,"end":7307.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7308.44159375,"end":7311.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7312.37346875,"end":7315.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7316.6259687500005,"end":7317.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7318.65096875,"end":7319.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7320.6590937500005,"end":7324.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7324.37159375,"end":7331.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7332.52221875,"end":7334.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7334.243468750001,"end":7336.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7337.17971875,"end":7337.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7338.934718750001,"end":7339.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7339.87971875,"end":7340.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7341.71909375,"end":7342.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7343.69346875,"end":7345.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7346.17409375,"end":7347.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7348.14846875,"end":7349.0428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7349.31284375,"end":7350.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7351.18596875,"end":7351.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7352.282843750001,"end":7352.569718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7353.1434687500005,"end":7354.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7354.66221875,"end":7358.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7358.91471875,"end":7359.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7360.4334687499995,"end":7361.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7362.01971875,"end":7364.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7365.276593750001,"end":7365.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7365.90096875,"end":7366.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7367.470343750001,"end":7369.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7370.4403437500005,"end":7371.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7371.874718750001,"end":7372.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7373.849093750001,"end":7374.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7376.49846875,"end":7377.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7377.544718749999,"end":7377.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7378.55721875,"end":7379.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7379.95784375,"end":7380.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7381.5947187500005,"end":7383.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7384.17659375,"end":7385.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7386.2353437500005,"end":7387.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7387.7372187500005,"end":7388.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7389.745343750001,"end":7391.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7391.145968750001,"end":7393.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7394.95971875,"end":7396.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7397.92971875,"end":7399.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7399.634093750001,"end":7402.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7402.80659375,"end":7406.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7407.649718750001,"end":7407.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7407.66659375,"end":7431.139718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7431.359093750001,"end":7437.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7435.05471875,"end":7435.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7436.657843750001,"end":7437.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7438.024718750001,"end":7440.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7441.821593750001,"end":7441.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7441.905968750001,"end":7441.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7441.9228437500005,"end":7442.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7442.02409375,"end":7443.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7444.79159375,"end":7445.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7447.18784375,"end":7448.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7450.022843750001,"end":7451.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7452.182843750001,"end":7453.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7455.034718750001,"end":7455.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7455.99659375,"end":7459.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7460.654093749999,"end":7463.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7464.0965937500005,"end":7464.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7465.632218750001,"end":7467.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7468.298468750001,"end":7469.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7470.23909375,"end":7470.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7470.694718750001,"end":7472.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7473.24284375,"end":7474.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7474.93034375,"end":7475.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7476.66846875,"end":7476.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7477.37721875,"end":7478.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7478.659718750001,"end":7479.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7479.368468750001,"end":7480.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7481.190968750001,"end":7481.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7482.878468750001,"end":7484.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7484.751593750001,"end":7485.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7486.860968750001,"end":7487.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7487.58659375,"end":7487.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7488.29534375,"end":7490.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7491.56909375,"end":7493.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7494.10034375,"end":7494.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7494.94409375,"end":7498.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7498.859093750001,"end":7500.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7502.622218750001,"end":7504.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7505.845343750001,"end":7507.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7507.65096875,"end":7509.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7510.6884687500005,"end":7511.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7512.52784375,"end":7515.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7516.27409375,"end":7522.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7523.12534375,"end":7531.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7523.17596875,"end":7523.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7525.0322187500005,"end":7525.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7526.36534375,"end":7526.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7529.03159375,"end":7529.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7530.16221875,"end":7533.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7533.90846875,"end":7536.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7537.5028437500005,"end":7541.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7541.097218750001,"end":7548.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7545.14721875,"end":7550.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7551.779093749999,"end":7561.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7561.41471875,"end":7561.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7562.005343750001,"end":7567.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7567.439093750001,"end":7567.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7567.4559687500005,"end":7567.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7568.31659375,"end":7569.835343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7570.32471875,"end":7572.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7572.737843750001,"end":7575.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7576.5009687500005,"end":7580.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7580.618468750001,"end":7582.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7582.204718750001,"end":7583.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7583.520968750001,"end":7584.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7585.47846875,"end":7585.7147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7586.2040937500005,"end":7587.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7587.8915937500005,"end":7588.7353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7589.91659375,"end":7590.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7591.46909375,"end":7592.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7592.83596875,"end":7593.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7594.439093750001,"end":7596.227843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7596.312218750001,"end":7598.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7599.5184687500005,"end":7600.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7600.919093750001,"end":7601.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7602.319718750001,"end":7604.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7605.44159375,"end":7606.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7607.483468750001,"end":7610.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7612.05659375,"end":7614.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7615.2459687499995,"end":7617.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7618.14846875,"end":7620.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7621.47284375,"end":7623.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7624.22346875,"end":7627.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7628.374718750001,"end":7628.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7628.88096875,"end":7629.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7631.17596875,"end":7633.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7633.74096875,"end":7635.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7635.61409375,"end":7636.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7637.79096875,"end":7638.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7640.895968750001,"end":7642.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7642.83659375,"end":7644.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7644.743468750001,"end":7645.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7647.07221875,"end":7647.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7647.966593749999,"end":7649.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7649.333468750001,"end":7650.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7650.53159375,"end":7652.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7653.2147187499995,"end":7653.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7654.17659375,"end":7655.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7655.577218750001,"end":7656.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7657.55159375,"end":7658.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7660.18409375,"end":7660.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7661.68596875,"end":7662.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7663.4072187500005,"end":7664.200343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7665.229718750001,"end":7666.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7667.052218750001,"end":7668.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7668.90846875,"end":7669.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7669.85346875,"end":7670.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7671.20346875,"end":7674.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7675.169093750001,"end":7678.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7679.69159375,"end":7684.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7684.9228437500005,"end":7687.251593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7689.00659375,"end":7689.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7689.7997187500005,"end":7691.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7692.364718750001,"end":7693.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7694.67659375,"end":7695.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7696.161593750001,"end":7697.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7699.23284375,"end":7699.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7700.295968750001,"end":7701.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7702.169093750001,"end":7703.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7703.63721875,"end":7704.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7704.9872187500005,"end":7706.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7708.59846875,"end":7710.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7711.19721875,"end":7712.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7711.264718750001,"end":7711.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7712.88471875,"end":7715.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7714.724093750001,"end":7717.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7716.090968750001,"end":7716.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7717.71096875,"end":7720.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7724.69721875,"end":7725.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7725.47346875,"end":7726.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7726.6884687500005,"end":7740.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7734.29909375,"end":7734.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7736.45909375,"end":7738.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7739.22659375,"end":7739.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7740.036593750001,"end":7742.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7743.39471875,"end":7749.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7748.794718749999,"end":7750.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7750.78596875,"end":7754.430968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7754.245343750001,"end":7759.1728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7759.206593750001,"end":7760.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7760.97846875,"end":7764.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7764.28596875,"end":7764.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7765.399718750001,"end":7771.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7768.04909375,"end":7776.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7777.026593750001,"end":7777.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7777.110968750001,"end":7778.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7777.56659375,"end":7779.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7779.62534375,"end":7783.169093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7783.169093750001,"end":7783.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7783.6415937500005,"end":7784.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7784.02971875,"end":7784.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7785.1434687500005,"end":7785.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7785.16034375,"end":7786.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7787.235968750001,"end":7788.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7789.41284375,"end":7789.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7790.155343750001,"end":7791.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7791.70784375,"end":7792.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7793.952218750001,"end":7795.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7795.55534375,"end":7796.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7796.82096875,"end":7797.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7797.63096875,"end":7798.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7799.571593750001,"end":7800.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7801.731593750001,"end":7803.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7805.91659375,"end":7808.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7811.11409375,"end":7812.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7813.307843750001,"end":7814.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7815.2147187499995,"end":7816.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7816.66596875,"end":7817.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7818.2353437500005,"end":7819.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7819.61909375,"end":7819.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7820.88471875,"end":7821.357218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7823.31471875,"end":7824.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7827.39846875,"end":7827.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7828.37721875,"end":7828.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7829.92971875,"end":7831.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7832.849093750001,"end":7834.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7837.18596875,"end":7841.151593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7841.97846875,"end":7843.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7843.75034375,"end":7845.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7846.55159375,"end":7848.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7848.5428437499995,"end":7849.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7850.87159375,"end":7851.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7852.52534375,"end":7854.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7856.59221875,"end":7857.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7860.692843750001,"end":7862.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7863.544718749999,"end":7863.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7864.8778437500005,"end":7867.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7868.64096875,"end":7869.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7870.159718750001,"end":7873.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7872.977843750001,"end":7873.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7873.720343750001,"end":7873.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7873.75409375,"end":7874.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7874.513468749999,"end":7875.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7875.6103437500005,"end":7875.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7875.86346875,"end":7876.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7876.04909375,"end":7876.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7876.8084687499995,"end":7878.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7878.833468750001,"end":7879.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7880.6053437499995,"end":7881.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7887.25409375,"end":7888.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7890.39284375,"end":7891.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7892.97471875,"end":7894.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7895.387843750001,"end":7901.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7895.40471875,"end":7899.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7902.593468750001,"end":7903.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7905.63096875,"end":7907.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7908.9384687500005,"end":7909.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7911.75659375,"end":7913.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7914.034718750001,"end":7914.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7914.99659375,"end":7915.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7916.41409375,"end":7917.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7919.55284375,"end":7920.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7921.00409375,"end":7924.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7924.83471875,"end":7925.526593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7926.20159375,"end":7927.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7928.7665937500005,"end":7929.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7930.8759687500005,"end":7932.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7932.81659375,"end":7934.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7935.98909375,"end":7937.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7937.997218750001,"end":7938.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7940.03909375,"end":7941.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7943.21159375,"end":7944.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7945.0340937500005,"end":7946.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7947.2615937499995,"end":7948.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7950.06284375,"end":7950.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7950.788468750001,"end":7950.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7950.80534375,"end":7950.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7951.85159375,"end":7951.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7951.9697187500005,"end":7958.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7954.5009687500005,"end":7955.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7959.310343749999,"end":7960.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7960.491593750001,"end":7962.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7962.786593750001,"end":7963.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7962.82034375,"end":7963.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7964.423468750001,"end":7964.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7964.575343750001,"end":7966.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7965.4022187499995,"end":7970.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7972.0340937500005,"end":7975.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7974.649718750001,"end":7975.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7975.88159375,"end":7977.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7975.965968750001,"end":7976.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7977.889718750001,"end":7978.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7978.868468750001,"end":7982.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7980.8934687500005,"end":7982.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7983.30659375,"end":7984.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7985.68596875,"end":7986.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7986.90096875,"end":7988.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7988.4872187500005,"end":8003.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7991.08596875,"end":7991.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7992.8240937499995,"end":7993.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7994.30909375,"end":7997.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7997.73471875,"end":7999.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8000.31659375,"end":8004.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8004.653468750001,"end":8005.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8007.25221875,"end":8008.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8009.108468750001,"end":8010.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8010.76221875,"end":8011.251593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8011.75784375,"end":8013.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8015.571593750001,"end":8016.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8017.124093750001,"end":8017.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8018.895968750001,"end":8020.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8020.46534375,"end":8021.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8023.70534375,"end":8024.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8026.4559687500005,"end":8027.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8029.577843750001,"end":8032.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8056.442843750001,"end":8062.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8062.585343750001,"end":8062.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8062.65284375,"end":8062.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8063.20971875,"end":8064.829718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8064.779093750001,"end":8066.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8066.92221875,"end":8067.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8073.182843750001,"end":8081.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8082.00846875,"end":8093.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8093.82096875,"end":8098.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8098.444718750001,"end":8104.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8104.671593750001,"end":8105.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8106.089093750001,"end":8110.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8110.729718750001,"end":8114.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8114.475968750001,"end":8115.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8116.36596875,"end":8117.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8117.530343750001,"end":8143.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8144.44596875,"end":8151.314093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8147.382218750001,"end":8147.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8151.786593750001,"end":8152.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8153.03534375,"end":8154.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8154.739718750001,"end":8155.904093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8156.798468750001,"end":8159.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8160.3759687500005,"end":8161.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8161.8778437500005,"end":8163.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8163.61596875,"end":8211.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8212.08096875,"end":8217.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8217.700343750003,"end":8221.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8221.71659375,"end":8223.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8223.37034375,"end":8229.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8225.53034375,"end":8225.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8230.57596875,"end":8241.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8242.43909375,"end":8246.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8247.29909375,"end":8255.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8256.25971875,"end":8267.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8267.97096875,"end":8274.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8276.762843750003,"end":8282.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8283.090968750003,"end":8287.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8287.714718750001,"end":8288.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8288.575343750003,"end":8301.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8300.67471875,"end":8304.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8305.079093750002,"end":8339.554718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8307.981593750003,"end":8307.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8308.015343750001,"end":8308.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8340.550343750001,"end":8346.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8348.160968750002,"end":8370.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8360.817218750002,"end":8360.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8371.58346875,"end":8372.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8372.81534375,"end":8376.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8378.687843750002,"end":8381.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8382.04596875,"end":8383.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8383.969718750002,"end":8386.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8387.36159375,"end":8388.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8389.89284375,"end":8391.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8392.62659375,"end":8394.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8395.57971875,"end":8397.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8397.368468750003,"end":8400.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8401.249718750001,"end":8414.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8415.441593750002,"end":8421.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8423.64284375,"end":8429.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8430.46034375,"end":8434.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8434.93221875,"end":8435.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8436.19784375,"end":8438.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8438.94846875,"end":8450.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8451.368468750003,"end":8468.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8469.25596875,"end":8476.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8476.309718750003,"end":8477.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8477.74409375,"end":8478.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8479.144718750002,"end":8479.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8480.44409375,"end":8483.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8484.44346875,"end":8485.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8485.472843750002,"end":8491.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8491.63221875,"end":8498.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8498.90534375,"end":8512.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8516.067218750002,"end":8542.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8544.29909375,"end":8545.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8546.324093750001,"end":8547.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8548.484093750001,"end":8551.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8551.909718750001,"end":8563.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8565.49409375,"end":8566.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8567.384093750003,"end":8570.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8570.910968750002,"end":8572.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8572.98659375,"end":8586.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8587.144718750002,"end":8590.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8591.093468750001,"end":8602.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8602.028468750003,"end":8602.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8602.04534375,"end":8602.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8603.10846875,"end":8615.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8615.96721875,"end":8626.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8627.18909375,"end":8627.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8627.20596875,"end":8628.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8628.269093750001,"end":8629.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8631.00284375,"end":8632.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8633.06159375,"end":8640.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8640.469718750002,"end":8644.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8644.722218750001,"end":8672.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8672.02596875,"end":8684.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8685.542843750001,"end":8688.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8689.727843750003,"end":8690.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8690.571593750003,"end":8697.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8697.64221875,"end":8702.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8702.55284375,"end":8703.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8704.08846875,"end":8704.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8705.910968750002,"end":8707.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8707.750343750002,"end":8708.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8708.222843750002,"end":8709.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8708.543468750002,"end":8708.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8708.57721875,"end":8708.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":8709.74159375,"end":8710.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8710.129718750002,"end":8711.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8711.749718750001,"end":8712.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8712.930968750003,"end":8714.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8715.32721875,"end":8717.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8718.094718750002,"end":8719.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8719.731593750003,"end":8720.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8721.081593750001,"end":8722.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8722.85346875,"end":8723.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8723.96721875,"end":8724.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8724.91221875,"end":8733.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8733.78846875,"end":8734.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8735.543468750002,"end":8735.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8736.62346875,"end":8737.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8737.973468750002,"end":8739.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8740.09971875,"end":8740.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8741.21346875,"end":8752.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8752.97534375,"end":8752.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8753.44784375,"end":8753.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8754.004718750002,"end":8769.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8766.99846875,"end":8768.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8769.141593750002,"end":8773.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8775.18284375,"end":8786.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8787.36659375,"end":8790.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8790.03284375,"end":8808.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8809.202843750001,"end":8813.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8814.83909375,"end":8819.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8819.95221875,"end":8822.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8823.37784375,"end":8824.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8824.930343750002,"end":8830.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8831.39346875,"end":8841.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8842.36221875,"end":8843.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8844.08346875,"end":8845.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8846.344718750002,"end":8847.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8848.47096875,"end":8849.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8850.394718750002,"end":8851.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8853.26346875,"end":8854.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8854.91721875,"end":8858.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8858.629718750002,"end":8875.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8875.352843750003,"end":8896.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8894.539718750002,"end":8904.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8898.40409375,"end":8898.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8898.72471875,"end":8898.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8906.52096875,"end":8906.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8907.73596875,"end":8917.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8929.96034375,"end":8932.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8932.54221875,"end":8933.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8936.76096875,"end":8951.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8951.94846875,"end":8953.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8953.602218750002,"end":8954.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8956.20096875,"end":8957.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8957.922218750002,"end":8970.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8962.343468750001,"end":8964.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8971.28721875,"end":8979.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8980.180343750002,"end":8985.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8984.449718750002,"end":8994.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8994.726593750001,"end":8998.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8998.48971875,"end":8999.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8999.164718750002,"end":8999.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8999.215343750002,"end":8999.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":8999.40096875,"end":9000.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9000.83534375,"end":9004.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9004.63221875,"end":9006.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9004.68284375,"end":9005.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9006.117218750001,"end":9010.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9011.46659375,"end":9014.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9015.22971875,"end":9015.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9016.74846875,"end":9027.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9028.004093750002,"end":9029.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9030.14721875,"end":9044.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9045.65534375,"end":9052.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9053.18159375,"end":9055.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9056.067218750002,"end":9058.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9059.52659375,"end":9061.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9062.63159375,"end":9076.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9076.18221875,"end":9079.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9079.540343750003,"end":9079.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9080.215343750002,"end":9092.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9089.243468750003,"end":9090.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9092.11221875,"end":9095.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9097.00596875,"end":9104.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9099.31784375,"end":9099.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9103.75596875,"end":9105.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9106.01721875,"end":9106.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9106.08471875,"end":9106.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9106.91159375,"end":9110.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9111.265343750001,"end":9119.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9118.04909375,"end":9121.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9121.035968750002,"end":9123.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9122.504093750002,"end":9124.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9124.47846875,"end":9124.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9124.782218750002,"end":9127.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9127.414718750002,"end":9130.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9130.739093750002,"end":9143.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9143.867843750002,"end":9143.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9143.90159375,"end":9143.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9143.93534375,"end":9145.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9145.63971875,"end":9146.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9147.074093750001,"end":9151.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9151.343468750001,"end":9152.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9153.672218750002,"end":9155.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9155.81534375,"end":9156.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9157.77284375,"end":9158.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9159.96659375,"end":9162.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9163.40909375,"end":9165.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9165.97409375,"end":9166.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9167.712218750003,"end":9199.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9199.89284375,"end":9204.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9204.820343750001,"end":9205.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9205.680968750003,"end":9205.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9206.76096875,"end":9218.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9218.15159375,"end":9220.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9221.070968750002,"end":9226.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9226.89284375,"end":9228.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9228.563468750002,"end":9230.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9229.62659375,"end":9244.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9230.80784375,"end":9232.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9243.852218750002,"end":9250.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9251.00721875,"end":9271.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9270.582218750002,"end":9273.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9273.383468750002,"end":9277.180343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9277.63596875,"end":9285.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9282.563468750002,"end":9288.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9288.672218750002,"end":9293.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9293.582843750002,"end":9306.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9306.67784375,"end":9308.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9309.192218750002,"end":9311.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9312.11159375,"end":9314.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9314.81159375,"end":9317.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9318.01784375,"end":9319.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9319.97534375,"end":9326.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9325.24034375,"end":9328.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9326.910968750002,"end":9326.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9327.180968750003,"end":9327.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9327.72096875,"end":9327.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9327.77159375,"end":9328.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9328.73346875,"end":9328.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9328.76721875,"end":9333.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9334.352843750003,"end":9335.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9336.52971875,"end":9337.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9338.16659375,"end":9338.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9339.90471875,"end":9340.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9340.883468750002,"end":9340.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9342.58784375,"end":9342.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9342.60471875,"end":9354.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9348.64596875,"end":9350.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9354.99096875,"end":9355.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9355.04159375,"end":9359.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9358.78784375,"end":9360.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9360.070343750001,"end":9365.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9365.74034375,"end":9368.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9366.80346875,"end":9376.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9372.726593750001,"end":9373.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9378.04221875,"end":9395.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9384.31971875,"end":9384.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9389.21346875,"end":9389.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9394.69784375,"end":9396.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9396.26721875,"end":9398.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9397.836593750002,"end":9404.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9405.12659375,"end":9406.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9406.155968750001,"end":9408.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9408.855968750002,"end":9410.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9410.745968750001,"end":9416.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9416.01096875,"end":9416.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9417.023468750001,"end":9427.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9427.469093750002,"end":9428.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9428.684093750002,"end":9429.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9429.96659375,"end":9431.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9431.60346875,"end":9439.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9439.34909375,"end":9450.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9442.74096875,"end":9443.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9450.26721875,"end":9450.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9451.347218750001,"end":9455.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9455.954093750002,"end":9457.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9457.422218750002,"end":9457.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9457.742843750002,"end":9467.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9467.378468750001,"end":9469.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9470.01096875,"end":9481.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9482.042843750001,"end":9489.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9489.97409375,"end":9494.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9491.324093750001,"end":9491.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9493.804718750001,"end":9497.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9496.774718750003,"end":9516.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9516.94034375,"end":9517.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9517.41284375,"end":9517.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9517.429718750001,"end":9517.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9517.446593750003,"end":9517.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9517.51409375,"end":9517.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9517.530968750001,"end":9517.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9517.547843750002,"end":9519.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9520.14659375,"end":9521.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9521.074718750002,"end":9521.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9521.14221875,"end":9522.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9522.40784375,"end":9531.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9526.62659375,"end":9526.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9528.17909375,"end":9529.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9530.187218750001,"end":9530.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9531.030968750001,"end":9542.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9533.37659375,"end":9533.730968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9542.10096875,"end":9543.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9543.09659375,"end":9543.113468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9543.113468750002,"end":9544.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9543.13034375,"end":9545.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9545.290343750003,"end":9555.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9545.61096875,"end":9545.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9546.167843750001,"end":9547.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9550.032218750002,"end":9550.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9550.36971875,"end":9550.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9551.652218750001,"end":9551.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9551.669093750003,"end":9552.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9555.550343750001,"end":9555.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9555.85409375,"end":9557.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9557.524718750003,"end":9557.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9557.54159375,"end":9557.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9557.609093750001,"end":9557.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9557.91284375,"end":9563.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9562.620968750001,"end":9564.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9565.118468750003,"end":9568.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9581.402843750002,"end":9583.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9583.74846875,"end":9584.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9585.85784375,"end":9588.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9586.364093750002,"end":9586.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9589.08096875,"end":9589.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9597.602843750003,"end":9598.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9599.66159375,"end":9600.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9601.61909375,"end":9602.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9603.15471875,"end":9604.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9603.57659375,"end":9603.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9603.593468750001,"end":9604.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9604.032218750002,"end":9605.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9605.41596875,"end":9609.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9607.035968750002,"end":9607.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9609.668468750002,"end":9610.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9614.81534375,"end":9615.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9615.27096875,"end":9615.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9615.996593750002,"end":9631.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9632.179718750001,"end":9634.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9635.63909375,"end":9637.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9638.54159375,"end":9639.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9639.68909375,"end":9640.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9640.515968750002,"end":9641.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9641.39346875,"end":9642.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9645.375968750002,"end":9646.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9648.09284375,"end":9649.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9653.695343750001,"end":9656.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9657.15471875,"end":9657.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9658.36971875,"end":9659.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9660.00659375,"end":9664.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9664.815968750001,"end":9667.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9668.02221875,"end":9670.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9670.65471875,"end":9677.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9677.640968750002,"end":9684.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9684.37409375,"end":9687.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9686.41596875,"end":9692.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9693.58784375,"end":9698.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9698.24534375,"end":9727.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9725.785343750002,"end":9731.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9732.164093750001,"end":9735.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9735.84284375,"end":9739.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9740.280968750001,"end":9742.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9742.69409375,"end":9744.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9744.870968750001,"end":9749.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9749.44409375,"end":9755.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9755.957843750002,"end":9756.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9757.324718750002,"end":9761.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9761.442218750002,"end":9764.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9765.42471875,"end":9766.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9766.909718750001,"end":9768.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9769.980968750002,"end":9770.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9771.415343750003,"end":9772.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9772.613468750002,"end":9776.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9777.524093750002,"end":9779.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9781.742843750002,"end":9786.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9786.214718750001,"end":9790.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9787.36221875,"end":9788.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9788.695343750001,"end":9790.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9791.074718750002,"end":9793.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9792.390968750002,"end":9797.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9797.554718750001,"end":9797.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9797.95971875,"end":9808.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9806.80221875,"end":9826.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9827.79471875,"end":9840.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9841.68284375,"end":9842.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9844.062218750001,"end":9846.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9847.082843750002,"end":9848.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9851.06534375,"end":9853.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9853.42784375,"end":9859.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9856.33034375,"end":9880.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":9869.121593750002,"end":9869.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9880.680968750003,"end":9885.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9885.895343750002,"end":9887.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9888.004718750002,"end":9894.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9895.969718750002,"end":9897.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9897.20159375,"end":9897.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9897.92721875,"end":9898.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9899.125343750002,"end":9908.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9909.351593750001,"end":9923.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9920.77596875,"end":9940.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9941.734718750002,"end":9945.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9945.61596875,"end":9949.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9951.117218750001,"end":9952.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9951.184718750003,"end":9951.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9952.180343750002,"end":9952.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9953.09159375,"end":9956.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9956.280968750001,"end":9958.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9956.48346875,"end":9957.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9958.457843750002,"end":9973.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9971.29971875,"end":9971.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9973.02096875,"end":9982.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9983.31471875,"end":10015.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10008.52596875,"end":10008.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10018.887218750002,"end":10020.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10020.675968750002,"end":10024.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10025.586593750002,"end":10031.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10029.805343750002,"end":10032.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10033.61909375,"end":10035.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10034.68221875,"end":10038.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10038.95159375,"end":10038.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10039.20471875,"end":10039.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10040.53784375,"end":10047.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10048.13159375,"end":10049.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10049.66721875,"end":10053.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10054.13909375,"end":10057.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10057.83471875,"end":10058.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10059.015968750002,"end":10059.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10062.964718750001,"end":10065.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10063.53846875,"end":10065.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10065.32721875,"end":10069.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10066.440968750001,"end":10066.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10067.41971875,"end":10067.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10070.507843750001,"end":10073.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10073.730968750002,"end":10075.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10074.203468750002,"end":10074.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10075.35096875,"end":10077.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10077.207218750002,"end":10078.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10078.000343750002,"end":10078.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10078.523468750001,"end":10082.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10082.35409375,"end":10084.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10085.13846875,"end":10094.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10093.559093750002,"end":10094.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10095.11159375,"end":10097.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10097.96346875,"end":10101.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10104.730343750001,"end":10106.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10106.55284375,"end":10107.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10107.98721875,"end":10109.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10109.94471875,"end":10112.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10112.83034375,"end":10113.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10114.534718750001,"end":10116.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10117.926593750002,"end":10120.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10123.140968750002,"end":10124.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10127.64659375,"end":10129.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10128.203468750002,"end":10130.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10130.734718750002,"end":10131.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10131.747218750003,"end":10132.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10132.08471875,"end":10140.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10139.77971875,"end":10151.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10141.29846875,"end":10141.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10154.460968750001,"end":10156.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10157.29596875,"end":10158.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10158.51096875,"end":10159.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10159.422218750002,"end":10159.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10159.87784375,"end":10160.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10161.227843750003,"end":10163.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10165.075343750003,"end":10167.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10165.328468750002,"end":10166.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10167.87659375,"end":10168.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10168.99034375,"end":10169.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10169.445968750002,"end":10172.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10173.05721875,"end":10173.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10173.37784375,"end":10174.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10175.352218750002,"end":10176.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10176.63471875,"end":10178.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10178.71034375,"end":10180.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10181.207843750002,"end":10182.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10183.097843750002,"end":10186.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10188.19409375,"end":10193.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10192.699718750002,"end":10198.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10198.808468750001,"end":10205.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10206.48659375,"end":10210.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10212.86534375,"end":10213.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10213.70909375,"end":10214.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10215.29534375,"end":10217.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10217.472218750001,"end":10225.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10220.712218750003,"end":10222.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10224.812843750002,"end":10226.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10228.289093750001,"end":10229.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10230.989093750002,"end":10231.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10232.89596875,"end":10235.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10233.149093750002,"end":10235.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10236.405968750001,"end":10237.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10238.835968750001,"end":10240.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10240.742843750002,"end":10241.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10242.227843750003,"end":10243.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10244.15159375,"end":10245.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10248.167843750001,"end":10252.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10251.15471875,"end":10252.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10253.06159375,"end":10257.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10258.259093750003,"end":10261.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10262.190968750001,"end":10264.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10265.160968750002,"end":10266.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10266.86534375,"end":10268.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10269.17721875,"end":10270.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10271.489093750002,"end":10280.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10273.26096875,"end":10273.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10274.695343750001,"end":10275.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10281.192218750002,"end":10283.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10284.516593750002,"end":10291.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10292.160968750002,"end":10319.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10321.01721875,"end":10325.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10326.46784375,"end":10332.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10332.610343750002,"end":10334.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10335.023468750001,"end":10335.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10337.132843750001,"end":10339.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10341.06471875,"end":10342.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10343.39346875,"end":10354.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10356.555968750003,"end":10372.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10373.02596875,"end":10375.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10376.535968750002,"end":10380.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10380.282218750002,"end":10386.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10389.090968750003,"end":10393.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10394.11971875,"end":10395.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10396.39784375,"end":10400.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10401.34221875,"end":10402.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10403.805968750003,"end":10411.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10412.09159375,"end":10417.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10418.80784375,"end":10419.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10420.292843750001,"end":10421.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10422.300968750002,"end":10423.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10422.31784375,"end":10422.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10423.296593750001,"end":10426.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10426.11471875,"end":10447.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10447.84971875,"end":10456.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10453.992218750001,"end":10463.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10467.120968750001,"end":10474.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10475.47409375,"end":10478.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10479.625343750002,"end":10485.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10485.97034375,"end":10491.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10492.450343750003,"end":10500.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10502.254718750002,"end":10503.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10505.00534375,"end":10505.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10507.18221875,"end":10516.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10513.020968750003,"end":10513.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10516.66596875,"end":10524.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10524.495968750001,"end":10528.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10525.96409375,"end":10527.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10528.15784375,"end":10531.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10530.840968750003,"end":10533.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10535.312843750002,"end":10537.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10535.61659375,"end":10539.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10538.13096875,"end":10538.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10540.34159375,"end":10540.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10540.88159375,"end":10551.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10544.290343750003,"end":10544.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10544.492843750002,"end":10544.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10550.280968750001,"end":10553.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10553.90909375,"end":10558.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10558.364093750002,"end":10561.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10561.90784375,"end":10562.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10562.093468750001,"end":10564.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10563.07221875,"end":10563.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10564.050968750002,"end":10576.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10568.320343750001,"end":10572.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10576.69034375,"end":10583.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10583.102843750003,"end":10584.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10585.161593750003,"end":10598.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10598.695343750001,"end":10600.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10600.72034375,"end":10602.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10603.133468750002,"end":10603.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10604.78721875,"end":10608.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10609.02284375,"end":10613.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10614.06846875,"end":10618.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10619.97471875,"end":10623.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10624.547843750002,"end":10630.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10632.546593750001,"end":10644.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10645.962218750003,"end":10647.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10647.227843750003,"end":10649.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10650.09659375,"end":10652.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10652.813468750002,"end":10656.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10657.487843750001,"end":10659.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10660.37346875,"end":10664.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10664.474093750003,"end":10669.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10669.620968750001,"end":10678.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10670.75159375,"end":10671.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10672.911593750003,"end":10674.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10675.223468750002,"end":10675.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10675.965968750003,"end":10675.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10678.497218750003,"end":10686.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10687.69409375,"end":10701.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10699.152218750001,"end":10700.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10701.599093750003,"end":10704.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10704.602843750003,"end":10712.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10712.753468750001,"end":10713.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10713.664718750002,"end":10721.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10723.300343750001,"end":10731.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11039.284718750001,"end":11043.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11051.92409375,"end":11054.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11054.97846875,"end":11055.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11055.737843750001,"end":11055.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11057.813468750002,"end":11058.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11058.488468750002,"end":11058.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11058.910343750002,"end":11061.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11062.977218750002,"end":11063.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11063.43284375,"end":11117.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11117.331593750001,"end":11145.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11145.78284375,"end":11156.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11156.734718750002,"end":11164.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11164.125968750002,"end":11195.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11194.73721875,"end":11237.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11203.714718750001,"end":11203.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11203.74846875,"end":11205.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11207.54534375,"end":11207.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11214.362843750001,"end":11214.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11237.262218750002,"end":11244.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11245.379093750002,"end":11266.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11266.523468750001,"end":11286.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11275.011593750001,"end":11276.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11278.605968750002,"end":11279.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11285.355968750002,"end":11291.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11289.43971875,"end":11318.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11311.360343750002,"end":11311.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11318.582843750002,"end":11333.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11324.94471875,"end":11325.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11333.348468750002,"end":11339.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11338.86659375,"end":11339.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11339.28846875,"end":11340.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11340.030968750001,"end":11343.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11343.895343750002,"end":11435.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11436.72471875,"end":11504.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11504.106593750003,"end":11518.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11518.180343750002,"end":11518.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11518.973468750002,"end":11519.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11519.024093750002,"end":11519.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11519.175968750002,"end":11519.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11519.226593750001,"end":11538.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11538.97034375,"end":11541.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11541.99096875,"end":11544.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11542.058468750001,"end":11542.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11545.028468750003,"end":11548.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11545.281593750002,"end":11546.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11547.559718750003,"end":11549.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11550.040343750003,"end":11586.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11586.59159375,"end":11587.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11587.87409375,"end":11632.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11632.84596875,"end":11632.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11633.200343750003,"end":11653.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11652.218468750001,"end":11660.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11660.80784375,"end":11665.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11666.055968750003,"end":11666.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11666.07284375,"end":11666.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11666.17409375,"end":11666.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11666.309093750002,"end":11744.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11671.08471875,"end":11671.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11671.30409375,"end":11671.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11719.38096875,"end":11719.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11744.136593750001,"end":11744.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11744.507843750001,"end":11753.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11753.805968750003,"end":11754.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":11754.480968750002,"end":11757.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11757.974093750003,"end":11759.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11761.922843750002,"end":11763.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11774.29221875,"end":11785.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11785.78409375,"end":11785.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11785.800968750002,"end":11786.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11788.56846875,"end":11788.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11788.602218750002,"end":11788.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11788.770968750003,"end":11789.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11789.04096875,"end":11811.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11807.907218750002,"end":11807.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11808.160343750002,"end":11808.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11811.87284375,"end":11826.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11826.68909375,"end":11827.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11828.12346875,"end":11836.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11836.93221875,"end":11837.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11837.15159375,"end":11837.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11837.910968750002,"end":11842.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11843.175968750002,"end":11847.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11848.137218750002,"end":11879.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11880.13221875,"end":11899.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11900.16284375,"end":11908.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11909.37659375,"end":11978.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11977.905968750001,"end":11978.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11978.56409375,"end":12021.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12022.87784375,"end":12075.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12075.12284375,"end":12090.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12091.12034375,"end":12133.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12133.949093750001,"end":12196.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12163.800968750002,"end":12167.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12196.352843750003,"end":12321.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12322.155968750001,"end":12322.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12322.695968750002,"end":12323.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12323.87721875,"end":12340.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12335.47034375,"end":12335.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12339.90846875,"end":12367.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12340.33034375,"end":12342.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12342.23721875,"end":12343.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12343.469093750002,"end":12343.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12346.28721875,"end":12346.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12354.84284375,"end":12355.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12356.294093750003,"end":12356.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12359.63534375,"end":12359.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12359.702843750001,"end":12360.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12365.676593750002,"end":12372.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12368.309093750002,"end":12368.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12370.23284375,"end":12410.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12411.00284375,"end":12411.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12411.441593750002,"end":12411.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12412.724093750003,"end":12417.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12417.499718750001,"end":12428.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12429.29534375,"end":12442.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12443.655968750001,"end":12448.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12449.12346875,"end":12463.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12464.327843750001,"end":12537.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12538.105343750001,"end":12539.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12539.97846875,"end":12561.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12560.49846875,"end":12561.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12561.93284375,"end":12562.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12562.320968750002,"end":12562.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12562.33784375,"end":12576.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12562.35471875,"end":12564.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12566.65784375,"end":12566.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12567.585968750001,"end":12568.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12574.57221875,"end":12595.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12577.06971875,"end":12581.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12595.29471875,"end":12609.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12595.328468750002,"end":12595.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12598.399718750003,"end":12598.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12598.83846875,"end":12598.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12598.956593750001,"end":12599.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12599.09159375,"end":12599.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12599.378468750001,"end":12599.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12599.817218750002,"end":12599.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12599.85096875,"end":12600.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12600.30659375,"end":12600.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12600.610343750002,"end":12600.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12609.840968750003,"end":12634.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12634.984718750002,"end":12652.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12635.01846875,"end":12635.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12652.72034375,"end":12658.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12658.96409375,"end":12668.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12668.02596875,"end":12673.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12668.633468750002,"end":12669.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12669.055343750002,"end":12669.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":12669.19034375,"end":12669.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12669.24096875,"end":12669.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12674.15159375,"end":12723.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12724.45596875,"end":12729.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12727.847843750002,"end":12728.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12728.539718750002,"end":12729.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12729.214718750001,"end":12729.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12729.45096875,"end":12731.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12730.699718750002,"end":12733.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12734.074718750002,"end":12739.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12739.407218750002,"end":12741.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12741.58409375,"end":12741.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12742.00596875,"end":12742.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12743.11971875,"end":12747.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12747.777218750001,"end":12748.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12756.164093750001,"end":12756.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12756.974093750003,"end":12759.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12760.298468750003,"end":12762.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12762.509093750003,"end":12763.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12767.925968750002,"end":12769.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12769.91721875,"end":12771.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12772.212218750003,"end":12774.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12774.49034375,"end":12782.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12782.438468750002,"end":12785.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12786.25221875,"end":12790.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12790.57221875,"end":12791.550968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12791.73659375,"end":12793.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12793.64346875,"end":12795.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12796.02284375,"end":12796.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12796.512218750002,"end":12801.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12802.18221875,"end":12804.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12804.409718750001,"end":12807.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12807.599093750003,"end":12808.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12809.20221875,"end":12809.235968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12809.235968750003,"end":12809.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12809.25284375,"end":12809.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12809.45534375,"end":12809.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12809.50596875,"end":12809.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12809.77596875,"end":12816.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12810.585968750001,"end":12811.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12817.774718750003,"end":12819.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12820.10346875,"end":12823.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12823.84971875,"end":12828.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12828.49034375,"end":12829.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12830.059718750003,"end":12834.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12834.902843750002,"end":12835.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12836.489093750002,"end":12837.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12837.957218750002,"end":12843.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12843.087218750003,"end":12844.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12845.567843750003,"end":12848.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12848.48721875,"end":12848.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12848.925968750002,"end":12848.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12848.95971875,"end":12858.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12858.03846875,"end":12864.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12864.923468750003,"end":12872.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12873.293468750002,"end":12881.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12881.96721875,"end":12882.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12883.300343750001,"end":12885.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12885.359093750001,"end":12885.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12885.848468750002,"end":12890.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12890.52284375,"end":12898.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12898.808468750001,"end":12899.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12900.141593750002,"end":12900.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12901.37346875,"end":12903.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12904.039718750002,"end":12905.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12905.997218750003,"end":12908.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12909.996593750002,"end":12912.595343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12913.28721875,"end":12914.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12914.485343750002,"end":12916.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12917.10096875,"end":12926.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12927.344093750002,"end":12933.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12934.33034375,"end":12935.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12936.456593750001,"end":12940.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12940.894718750002,"end":12941.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12941.60346875,"end":12949.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12950.10846875,"end":12955.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12956.68971875,"end":12957.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12959.052218750003,"end":12965.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12965.66721875,"end":12966.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12966.747218750003,"end":12969.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12969.548468750003,"end":12972.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12973.024718750003,"end":12974.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12975.15096875,"end":12981.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12981.816593750002,"end":12984.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12984.53346875,"end":12985.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12987.33471875,"end":12989.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12990.220343750003,"end":12993.679718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12994.793468750002,"end":12998.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12998.843468750001,"end":13002.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13002.387218750002,"end":13004.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13005.829718750003,"end":13012.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13012.86659375,"end":13015.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13015.48221875,"end":13017.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13018.60409375,"end":13020.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13021.439093750003,"end":13022.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13022.65409375,"end":13025.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13026.113468750002,"end":13027.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13028.442218750002,"end":13029.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13029.809093750002,"end":13037.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13037.099093750003,"end":13041.047843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13041.21659375,"end":13042.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13043.039093750001,"end":13044.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13044.844718750002,"end":13045.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13045.317218750002,"end":13045.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13046.160968750002,"end":13046.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13047.105968750002,"end":13049.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13051.34159375,"end":13057.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13057.399718750003,"end":13060.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13060.251593750003,"end":13063.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13063.94721875,"end":13066.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13067.187218750001,"end":13067.423468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13068.33471875,"end":13074.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13075.894718750002,"end":13084.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13084.68659375,"end":13086.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13087.36971875,"end":13088.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13089.47909375,"end":13090.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13091.80784375,"end":13095.689093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13096.02659375,"end":13096.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13096.735343750002,"end":13098.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13098.96284375,"end":13125.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13125.692843750003,"end":13135.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13136.10471875,"end":13147.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13147.765343750001,"end":13151.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13152.50721875,"end":13154.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13155.055343750002,"end":13160.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13160.30346875,"end":13171.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13172.149718750003,"end":13175.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13176.23346875,"end":13177.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13177.60034375,"end":13183.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13184.215343750002,"end":13191.539093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13192.281593750002,"end":13194.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13195.032218750002,"end":13198.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13196.753468750001,"end":13196.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13196.80409375,"end":13196.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13196.820968750002,"end":13196.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13196.85471875,"end":13196.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13199.21721875,"end":13199.470343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13200.044093750003,"end":13202.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13202.81159375,"end":13205.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13205.49471875,"end":13207.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13208.110343750002,"end":13209.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13209.949718750002,"end":13213.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13213.493468750003,"end":13215.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13216.024718750003,"end":13216.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13217.08784375,"end":13221.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13222.84221875,"end":13226.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13227.972218750001,"end":13228.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13228.96784375,"end":13241.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13237.945343750001,"end":13238.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13241.961593750002,"end":13242.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13242.737843750001,"end":13250.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13250.85471875,"end":13251.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13252.339718750001,"end":13253.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13253.16659375,"end":13254.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13255.140968750002,"end":13259.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13259.477843750003,"end":13260.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13262.12721875,"end":13266.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13266.970343750003,"end":13269.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13270.750343750002,"end":13273.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13273.83846875,"end":13274.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13275.542843750001,"end":13279.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13280.06534375,"end":13282.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13283.187218750001,"end":13284.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13284.790343750003,"end":13293.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13294.51034375,"end":13295.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13295.67471875,"end":13297.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13297.78409375,"end":13298.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13299.015968750002,"end":13299.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13299.82596875,"end":13301.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13301.969093750002,"end":13302.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13303.16721875,"end":13309.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13310.32221875,"end":13315.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13315.35096875,"end":13320.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13321.40909375,"end":13322.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13323.552218750003,"end":13324.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13325.594093750002,"end":13327.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13328.277218750001,"end":13329.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13330.015343750001,"end":13332.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13333.187843750002,"end":13333.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13335.027218750001,"end":13337.423468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13337.777843750002,"end":13342.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13343.903468750003,"end":13346.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13346.316593750002,"end":13350.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13350.82221875,"end":13353.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13353.859718750002,"end":13354.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13354.51784375,"end":13359.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13359.22596875,"end":13365.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13366.49909375,"end":13371.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13372.270343750002,"end":13373.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13374.98721875,"end":13378.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13378.429718750001,"end":13381.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13382.51346875,"end":13385.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13386.42846875,"end":13391.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13392.58784375,"end":13396.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13397.17784375,"end":13401.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13402.645343750002,"end":13407.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13408.26471875,"end":13413.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13413.563468750002,"end":13416.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13416.769718750002,"end":13417.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13417.680968750003,"end":13419.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13420.313468750002,"end":13422.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13422.91221875,"end":13423.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13424.481593750003,"end":13426.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13427.485343750002,"end":13436.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13437.05346875,"end":13439.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13440.782843750003,"end":13441.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13442.031593750002,"end":13445.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13446.63846875,"end":13448.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13448.190968750001,"end":13449.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13449.91221875,"end":13453.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13454.19846875,"end":13457.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13457.657843750003,"end":13462.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13462.534718750001,"end":13465.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13465.74096875,"end":13469.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13469.925968750002,"end":13471.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13472.609093750001,"end":13476.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13476.726593750001,"end":13477.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13477.907843750003,"end":13479.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13480.624718750001,"end":13481.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13482.14346875,"end":13484.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13484.539718750002,"end":13485.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13485.974093750003,"end":13487.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13487.712218750003,"end":13497.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13493.669093750003,"end":13493.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13494.95159375,"end":13495.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13497.837218750003,"end":13502.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13502.410343750002,"end":13502.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13502.612843750001,"end":13506.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13506.899093750002,"end":13510.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13511.13471875,"end":13513.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13514.121593750002,"end":13527.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13527.891593750002,"end":13533.173468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13533.81471875,"end":13534.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13535.19846875,"end":13536.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13536.649718750003,"end":13544.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13544.47971875,"end":13549.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13549.812218750001,"end":13552.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13552.562843750002,"end":13553.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13553.507843750001,"end":13554.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13555.262843750003,"end":13557.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13557.405968750001,"end":13560.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13560.96659375,"end":13561.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13562.72159375,"end":13564.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13564.577843750001,"end":13567.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13567.98659375,"end":13573.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13573.31909375,"end":13576.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13577.48721875,"end":13580.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13580.355968750002,"end":13583.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13583.71409375,"end":13590.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13591.51034375,"end":13592.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13592.843468750001,"end":13593.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13594.09221875,"end":13597.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13597.821593750003,"end":13598.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13599.289718750002,"end":13601.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13601.567843750003,"end":13607.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13607.69346875,"end":13608.992843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13609.54971875,"end":13616.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13616.97471875,"end":13616.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13616.99159375,"end":13621.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13617.531593750002,"end":13617.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13622.56034375,"end":13625.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13625.614718750003,"end":13627.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13627.825343750003,"end":13646.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13627.859093750001,"end":13628.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13646.117843750002,"end":13646.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13646.30346875,"end":13647.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13647.130343750003,"end":13652.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13652.78346875,"end":13653.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13653.94784375,"end":13654.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13654.673468750003,"end":13655.095343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13655.348468750002,"end":13660.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13660.17471875,"end":13662.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13663.07721875,"end":13668.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13668.71346875,"end":13673.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13673.421593750001,"end":13676.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13676.914718750002,"end":13693.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13693.82346875,"end":13695.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13696.371593750002,"end":13699.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13700.50596875,"end":13703.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13703.644718750002,"end":13710.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13710.20909375,"end":13714.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13714.191593750002,"end":13740.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13739.95971875,"end":13739.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13739.993468750003,"end":13745.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13745.59596875,"end":13745.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13746.827843750001,"end":13749.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13750.28721875,"end":13750.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13751.215343750002,"end":13752.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13752.700343750003,"end":13753.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13753.814093750003,"end":13758.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13758.35346875,"end":13760.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13761.00284375,"end":13761.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13761.644093750001,"end":13764.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13765.57596875,"end":13778.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13778.92409375,"end":13783.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13783.969718750002,"end":13794.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13792.05284375,"end":13804.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13802.92034375,"end":13804.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13817.770343750002,"end":13826.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13827.16971875,"end":13831.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13835.337218750003,"end":13837.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13838.442218750002,"end":13839.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13841.73284375,"end":13842.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13842.20534375,"end":13842.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13842.77909375,"end":13848.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13848.820343750001,"end":13852.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13853.27534375,"end":13862.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13862.691593750002,"end":13870.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13870.99409375,"end":13883.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13884.257843750001,"end":13888.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13888.442843750003,"end":13892.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13892.52659375,"end":13894.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13895.42909375,"end":13896.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13897.11659375,"end":13900.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13901.520968750003,"end":13903.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13903.613468750002,"end":13904.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13904.32221875,"end":13909.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13910.27909375,"end":13913.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13914.51471875,"end":13915.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13916.13471875,"end":13916.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13917.24846875,"end":13920.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13921.484093750001,"end":13922.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13922.53034375,"end":13925.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13926.31034375,"end":13928.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13928.976593750001,"end":13930.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13930.343468750001,"end":13931.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13932.081593750001,"end":13934.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13934.76471875,"end":13936.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13936.907843750003,"end":13937.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13937.582843750002,"end":13939.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13940.164718750002,"end":13941.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13942.594718750002,"end":13944.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13944.34971875,"end":13949.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13950.441593750002,"end":13952.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13952.63534375,"end":13953.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13953.95159375,"end":13977.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13964.19471875,"end":13964.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13976.547218750002,"end":13980.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13980.74909375,"end":14005.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14006.21346875,"end":14017.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14018.515343750001,"end":14025.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14025.45096875,"end":14027.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14028.10034375,"end":14033.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14033.753468750001,"end":14036.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14036.723468750002,"end":14075.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14074.55721875,"end":14075.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14075.40096875,"end":14075.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14075.417843750001,"end":14075.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14075.468468750001,"end":14075.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14076.44721875,"end":14083.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14083.78784375,"end":14090.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14086.15034375,"end":14086.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14090.58846875,"end":14139.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14138.175968750002,"end":14152.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14150.832218750002,"end":14154.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14153.802218750003,"end":14154.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14154.71346875,"end":14215.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14166.171593750001,"end":14166.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14216.40846875,"end":14217.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14217.707843750002,"end":14259.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14248.808468750001,"end":14249.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14250.00659375,"end":14250.782843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14259.102218750002,"end":14259.827843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14259.827843750001,"end":14260.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14260.18221875,"end":14271.032843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14271.032843750003,"end":14271.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14271.35346875,"end":14271.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14273.074718750002,"end":14279.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14279.63909375,"end":14283.267218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14283.874718750001,"end":14287.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14287.941593750002,"end":14289.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14289.39284375,"end":14290.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14290.911593750003,"end":14291.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14292.379718750002,"end":14297.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14297.442218750002,"end":14299.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14300.749718750001,"end":14300.867843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14311.44846875,"end":14314.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14315.009093750003,"end":14316.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14316.07221875,"end":14316.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14317.03409375,"end":14318.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14321.25284375,"end":14322.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14322.61971875,"end":14324.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14324.98221875,"end":14329.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14329.94346875,"end":14333.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14335.00596875,"end":14338.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14338.532843750003,"end":14339.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14340.524093750002,"end":14342.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14342.70096875,"end":14345.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14345.417843750001,"end":14348.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14349.130343750003,"end":14351.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14351.290343750003,"end":14354.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14354.51346875,"end":14360.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14360.234093750001,"end":14361.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14362.05659375,"end":14362.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14363.102843750003,"end":14365.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14366.190968750001,"end":14371.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14372.215343750002,"end":14373.160343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14373.312218750001,"end":14373.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14374.375343750002,"end":14380.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14381.294093750003,"end":14385.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14386.10346875,"end":14390.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14390.28846875,"end":14412.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14414.06534375,"end":14420.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14420.376593750003,"end":14421.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14422.40159375,"end":14423.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14424.629093750002,"end":14440.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14441.38596875,"end":14442.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14443.140968750002,"end":14448.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14449.43534375,"end":14450.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14450.66721875,"end":14452.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14452.962218750003,"end":14457.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14458.41284375,"end":14481.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14482.324718750002,"end":14485.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14486.172218750002,"end":14504.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14504.12721875,"end":14514.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14513.543468750002,"end":14515.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14514.79221875,"end":14543.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14520.69846875,"end":14521.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14542.754093750002,"end":14543.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14543.749718750001,"end":14543.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14543.78346875,"end":14544.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14543.800343750001,"end":14548.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14546.618468750003,"end":14552.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14552.71034375,"end":14554.532843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14555.24159375,"end":14557.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14558.86971875,"end":14560.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14560.793468750002,"end":14567.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14567.712218750003,"end":14569.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14570.294093750003,"end":14572.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14573.348468750002,"end":14578.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14579.474093750003,"end":14581.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14581.735343750002,"end":14587.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14585.66721875,"end":14586.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14587.202843750001,"end":14587.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14587.860968750003,"end":14590.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14590.83096875,"end":14598.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14598.20534375,"end":14598.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14598.239093750002,"end":14598.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14598.340343750002,"end":14598.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14598.47534375,"end":14598.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14598.62721875,"end":14599.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14598.644093750001,"end":14603.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14601.040343750003,"end":14604.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14605.883468750002,"end":14606.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14607.21659375,"end":14608.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14609.64659375,"end":14610.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14611.064093750003,"end":14611.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14611.08096875,"end":14615.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14611.165343750003,"end":14611.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14611.215968750003,"end":14611.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14615.02971875,"end":14628.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14621.88096875,"end":14621.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14622.859718750002,"end":14624.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14628.05721875,"end":14628.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14628.141593750002,"end":14628.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14628.563468750002,"end":14628.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14628.597218750001,"end":14628.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14628.816593750002,"end":14645.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14628.884093750003,"end":14629.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14630.925968750002,"end":14631.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14633.32221875,"end":14633.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14636.59596875,"end":14637.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14637.422843750002,"end":14637.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14646.45096875,"end":14657.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14646.61971875,"end":14648.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14655.985343750002,"end":14662.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14662.48221875,"end":14670.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14664.000968750002,"end":14664.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14667.359093750001,"end":14674.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14675.712218750003,"end":14685.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14686.782218750002,"end":14690.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14691.49034375,"end":14694.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14695.017218750003,"end":14699.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14699.539718750002,"end":14702.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14702.914718750002,"end":14705.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14703.707843750002,"end":14707.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14706.509093750003,"end":14715.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14716.65096875,"end":14718.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14718.743468750003,"end":14721.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14721.96659375,"end":14722.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14724.109718750002,"end":14728.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14728.395968750003,"end":14729.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14729.661593750003,"end":14730.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14731.14659375,"end":14733.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14733.67784375,"end":14735.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14735.83784375,"end":14736.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14737.84596875,"end":14742.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14742.95909375,"end":14748.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14748.578468750002,"end":14751.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14752.949093750001,"end":14756.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14759.344718750002,"end":14759.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14809.969718750002,"end":14810.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14810.121593750002,"end":14810.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14810.965343750002,"end":14810.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14814.47534375,"end":14814.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14814.863468750002,"end":14815.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14815.032218750002,"end":14815.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14815.977218750002,"end":14816.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":14816.972843750002,"end":14817.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14817.20909375,"end":14818.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14818.74471875,"end":14819.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14820.094718750002,"end":14822.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14822.946593750003,"end":14823.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14841.407843750003,"end":14841.964718750001}],"whisperx":[]}},{"id":"16515","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16515","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d6d254b92567b84ce8b2c86716c5b07467a524d1b3d409a1a269af661c838da6d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國機國造交機進度及勇鷹高教機失事後檢修情況」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-13","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-13T08:31:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:26:00+08:00","duration":10443,"影片長度":"02:54:03","委員發言時間":"08:31:57 - 11:26:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-3-35-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":1722.5972187500001,"end":1726.4447187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1729.5497187500002,"end":1730.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1731.1865937500002,"end":1734.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1735.6922187500002,"end":1740.9234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1741.3622187500002,"end":1746.1715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1746.6440937500001,"end":1748.2303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1748.4665937500001,"end":1750.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1750.7784687500002,"end":1753.0397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1753.5628437500002,"end":1758.1865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1758.5915937500001,"end":1761.3253437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1761.7134687500002,"end":1763.4684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1763.6034687500003,"end":1765.6790937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1766.1347187500003,"end":1771.5684687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1772.0072187500002,"end":1774.9940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1775.3484687500002,"end":1776.6815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1777.0190937500001,"end":1777.9134687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1778.3184687500002,"end":1786.0640937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1786.40159375,"end":1791.2615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1791.46409375,"end":1793.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1795.3622187500002,"end":1797.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1799.1422187500002,"end":1805.9259687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1806.2634687500001,"end":1807.8665937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1812.3047187500001,"end":1812.8109687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1813.5028437500002,"end":1821.5184687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1822.5140937500003,"end":1827.5934687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1829.4834687500002,"end":1836.3009687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1836.73971875,"end":1840.7728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1842.5447187500001,"end":1844.8565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1845.75096875,"end":1845.9872187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1846.3922187500002,"end":1848.4003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1848.5015937500002,"end":1850.4759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1851.3534687500003,"end":1854.4078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1856.7872187500002,"end":1859.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1861.8834687500002,"end":1862.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1862.8453437500002,"end":1864.5665937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1867.13159375,"end":1868.0259687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1868.53221875,"end":1871.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1873.30784375,"end":1876.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1876.56471875,"end":1877.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1879.5853437500002,"end":1881.2728437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1883.3822187500002,"end":1886.3184687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1888.0059687500002,"end":1888.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1889.3728437500001,"end":1890.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1891.0097187500003,"end":1891.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1891.04346875,"end":1892.3259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1893.8109687500003,"end":1894.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1895.0259687500002,"end":1896.2240937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1898.6878437500002,"end":1899.8184687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1900.45971875,"end":1900.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1901.7422187500001,"end":1903.1934687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1903.8009687500003,"end":1905.0834687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1906.7372187500002,"end":1908.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1908.9309687500001,"end":1910.0615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1911.6647187500002,"end":1915.5628437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1917.8072187500002,"end":1921.8909687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1923.6122187500002,"end":1925.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1927.5778437500003,"end":1929.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1930.6490937500002,"end":1931.9315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1932.4209687500002,"end":1933.8722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1935.4078437500002,"end":1936.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1937.43284375,"end":1939.5928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1939.9134687500002,"end":1941.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1942.93409375,"end":1944.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1945.2459687500002,"end":1950.8484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1951.7597187500003,"end":1952.7553437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1953.6497187500001,"end":1958.2397187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1959.7078437500002,"end":1964.0953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1965.6140937500002,"end":1968.8540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1969.5797187500002,"end":1970.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1970.76096875,"end":1971.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1974.6928437500003,"end":1976.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1978.1015937500001,"end":1978.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1980.05909375,"end":1982.4890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1985.1722187500002,"end":1986.1509687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1986.6234687500003,"end":1987.8553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1988.1253437500002,"end":1989.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1991.5509687500003,"end":1993.2553437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1993.7615937500002,"end":1994.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1996.9847187500002,"end":1999.5665937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2000.9672187500003,"end":2002.5028437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2004.0384687500002,"end":2005.5909687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2007.8353437500002,"end":2009.9953437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2010.3159687500001,"end":2011.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2013.23534375,"end":2014.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2015.9353437500001,"end":2018.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2018.7872187500002,"end":2020.1709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2022.7022187500002,"end":2023.4109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2024.77784375,"end":2025.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2026.6847187500002,"end":2031.7303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2033.5697187500002,"end":2035.4090937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2036.45534375,"end":2037.8390937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2039.96534375,"end":2043.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2044.8084687500002,"end":2046.4115937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2046.7659687500002,"end":2047.5253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2047.7447187500002,"end":2048.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2050.49534375,"end":2051.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2052.26721875,"end":2053.6678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2054.9840937500003,"end":2056.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2056.06409375,"end":2057.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2059.01721875,"end":2060.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2066.22284375,"end":2070.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2070.55971875,"end":2077.9003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2078.23784375,"end":2080.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2080.70159375,"end":2082.6084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2085.40971875,"end":2087.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2089.8984687500006,"end":2095.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2096.5303437500006,"end":2097.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2098.65659375,"end":2102.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2102.7740937500002,"end":2105.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2105.64284375,"end":2125.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2126.4834687500006,"end":2138.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2138.97096875,"end":2149.2647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2149.51784375,"end":2157.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2158.1747187500005,"end":2172.8053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2183.57159375,"end":2189.2753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2189.84909375,"end":2206.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2206.7409687500003,"end":2224.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2225.3203437500006,"end":2225.6240937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2225.9615937500002,"end":2226.8897187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2227.37909375,"end":2231.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2231.80034375,"end":2232.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2232.7284687500005,"end":2243.6297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2244.7772187500004,"end":2253.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2253.85596875,"end":2265.8203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2267.4403437500005,"end":2269.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2270.0897187500004,"end":2288.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2289.78284375,"end":2291.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2291.9090937500005,"end":2301.3084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2301.9665937500004,"end":2306.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2306.5397187500002,"end":2307.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2308.0078437500006,"end":2317.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2317.4747187500006,"end":2323.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2324.24159375,"end":2325.7097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2325.9628437500005,"end":2334.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2334.90659375,"end":2349.4528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2349.9422187500004,"end":2354.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2356.0847187500003,"end":2358.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2359.3584687500006,"end":2360.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2361.78846875,"end":2364.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2365.1465937500006,"end":2365.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2365.46721875,"end":2372.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2373.31409375,"end":2378.8828437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2378.91659375,"end":2386.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2388.07971875,"end":2390.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2390.59409375,"end":2394.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2394.82971875,"end":2400.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2400.8203437500006,"end":2407.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2408.1609687500004,"end":2410.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2410.3209687500002,"end":2414.7422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2416.44659375,"end":2417.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2418.31971875,"end":2425.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2425.74471875,"end":2432.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2432.9334687500004,"end":2433.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2434.41846875,"end":2438.7722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2440.37534375,"end":2444.5603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2445.97784375,"end":2447.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2448.03659375,"end":2448.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2449.2009687500004,"end":2454.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2454.9890937500004,"end":2458.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2458.4147187500002,"end":2461.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2461.60409375,"end":2467.4765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2467.81409375,"end":2479.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2479.8290937500005,"end":2482.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2483.5078437500006,"end":2488.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2489.5997187500006,"end":2491.3378437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2491.42221875,"end":2496.6872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2496.97409375,"end":2499.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2499.79221875,"end":2510.7440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2511.90846875,"end":2529.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2529.9647187500004,"end":2533.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2534.14971875,"end":2535.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2535.60096875,"end":2546.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2546.26596875,"end":2559.6140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2568.45659375,"end":2569.5534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2569.8065937500005,"end":2583.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2584.53846875,"end":2610.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2617.1747187500005,"end":2619.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2626.96221875,"end":2627.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2628.4472187500005,"end":2650.3847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2650.8572187500004,"end":2652.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2652.94971875,"end":2659.0078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2659.46346875,"end":2665.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2662.63596875,"end":2663.6315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":2664.6103437500005,"end":2665.7578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2665.4034687500007,"end":2665.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2665.65659375,"end":2683.7803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2683.7803437500006,"end":2700.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2700.60471875,"end":2702.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2701.2628437500007,"end":2701.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2702.6297187500004,"end":2702.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2702.96721875,"end":2703.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2703.4059687500003,"end":2711.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2708.33346875,"end":2709.8015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2712.2315937500007,"end":2746.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2724.24659375,"end":2724.7022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2725.27596875,"end":2727.8747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2745.1378437500007,"end":2745.5597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2746.7409687500003,"end":2747.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2746.79159375,"end":2757.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2755.7184687500003,"end":2763.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2758.11471875,"end":2760.7472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2761.30409375,"end":2761.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2761.96221875,"end":2820.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2769.1847187500007,"end":2769.2184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2769.2184687500003,"end":2769.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2769.45471875,"end":2769.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2769.5390937500006,"end":2769.5897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2820.97409375,"end":2854.8253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2825.91846875,"end":2826.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2826.15471875,"end":2826.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2855.19659375,"end":2857.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2856.3778437500005,"end":2856.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2856.41159375,"end":2857.3565937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2857.0528437500006,"end":2857.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2857.12034375,"end":2894.3972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2879.54721875,"end":2880.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2893.7390937500004,"end":2923.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2924.68784375,"end":2925.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2925.90284375,"end":2931.5222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2933.05784375,"end":2933.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2933.5303437500006,"end":2938.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2938.96409375,"end":2945.3428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2944.3640937500004,"end":2944.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2944.63409375,"end":2945.2753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":2945.3428437500006,"end":2946.6084687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2947.04721875,"end":2955.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2955.6534687500007,"end":2959.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2959.93971875,"end":2977.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2977.97909375,"end":2985.9609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2980.42596875,"end":2981.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2982.01221875,"end":2983.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2986.4334687500004,"end":2994.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2994.8709687500004,"end":3007.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3004.30409375,"end":3004.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3006.4978437500004,"end":3119.9822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3007.4765937500006,"end":3009.5690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3120.6065937500007,"end":3137.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3137.9372187500003,"end":3150.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3150.6103437500005,"end":3153.6647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3154.01909375,"end":3161.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3161.29221875,"end":3161.3259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3161.41034375,"end":3166.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3166.91159375,"end":3181.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3182.1834687500004,"end":3219.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3184.74846875,"end":3186.4528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3219.0553437500002,"end":3246.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3247.1522187500004,"end":3255.5390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3270.4903437500006,"end":3272.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3280.51409375,"end":3281.5603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3282.57284375,"end":3293.9297187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3294.13221875,"end":3295.4147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3296.05596875,"end":3309.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3309.6403437500003,"end":3324.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3325.0809687500005,"end":3344.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3344.58846875,"end":3378.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3378.99659375,"end":3388.9528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3389.77971875,"end":3393.0534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3389.83034375,"end":3418.5684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3419.2940937500007,"end":3435.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3435.8990937500002,"end":3435.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3435.9665937500004,"end":3459.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3459.86159375,"end":3464.6709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3465.90284375,"end":3466.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3466.8984687500006,"end":3482.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3482.64284375,"end":3484.6847187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3485.4440937500003,"end":3498.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3498.1172187500006,"end":3499.2647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3499.6697187500004,"end":3500.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3501.39096875,"end":3504.8672187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3505.0359687500004,"end":3517.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3517.96221875,"end":3520.1222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3520.2403437500006,"end":3541.1315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3538.51596875,"end":3539.5284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3541.6209687500004,"end":3542.4815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3543.4772187500002,"end":3543.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3543.51096875,"end":3557.1628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3557.5340937500005,"end":3558.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3558.5634687500005,"end":3566.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3566.73096875,"end":3568.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3568.82346875,"end":3569.0597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3569.8190937500003,"end":3573.6834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3573.8015937500004,"end":3581.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3582.1378437500007,"end":3582.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3582.40784375,"end":3582.4415937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3582.4415937500007,"end":3582.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3583.0828437500004,"end":3588.7697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3589.07346875,"end":3591.3515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3589.25909375,"end":3589.4109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3592.2965937500003,"end":3599.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3600.7340937500003,"end":3671.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3672.4022187500004,"end":3673.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3674.71409375,"end":3676.4353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3677.2790937500004,"end":3693.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3694.2384687500007,"end":3698.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3699.4697187500005,"end":3702.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3702.76034375,"end":3706.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3706.6247187500003,"end":3707.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3707.70471875,"end":3711.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3712.2440937500005,"end":3747.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3747.05721875,"end":3774.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3775.3397187500004,"end":3783.2878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3783.87846875,"end":3783.8953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3783.8953437500004,"end":3824.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3825.5428437500004,"end":3825.5597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3825.5597187500007,"end":3826.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3826.6903437500005,"end":3827.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3828.41159375,"end":3831.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3831.5840937500006,"end":3832.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3832.7822187500005,"end":3837.5409687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3837.74346875,"end":3838.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3845.3034687500003,"end":3846.1134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3846.1472187500003,"end":3847.3115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3855.4284687500003,"end":3856.5084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3856.62659375,"end":3867.3590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3867.7809687500003,"end":3922.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3922.6247187500003,"end":3939.9215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3940.1240937500006,"end":3987.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3972.3722187500007,"end":3972.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3986.4797187500008,"end":3989.0109687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3988.5215937500006,"end":3994.4109687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3994.9509687500004,"end":4011.1678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4011.1678437500004,"end":4047.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4048.8497187500006,"end":4058.1815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4057.91159375,"end":4063.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4063.4803437500004,"end":4064.3409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4064.4422187500004,"end":4078.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4079.07284375,"end":4099.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4099.03596875,"end":4131.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4131.43596875,"end":4154.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4155.71909375,"end":4172.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4173.11721875,"end":4187.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4187.427218750001,"end":4213.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4214.005343750001,"end":4214.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4215.11909375,"end":4248.042218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4248.34596875,"end":4269.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4269.743468750001,"end":4273.675343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4274.670968750001,"end":4275.126593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4275.734093749999,"end":4282.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4280.02034375,"end":4280.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4282.5009687500005,"end":4295.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4296.10221875,"end":4306.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4307.054093750001,"end":4324.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4325.515343749999,"end":4325.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4326.24096875,"end":4334.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4334.44221875,"end":4334.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4334.77971875,"end":4385.3709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4385.286593750001,"end":4387.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4388.3915937500005,"end":4390.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4390.264718750001,"end":4402.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4403.005343750001,"end":4403.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4403.03909375,"end":4404.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4404.11909375,"end":4404.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4404.3553437499995,"end":4405.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4404.557843750001,"end":4404.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4404.929093750001,"end":4404.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4406.02596875,"end":4412.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4423.18784375,"end":4425.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4432.70534375,"end":4433.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4433.1103437500005,"end":4434.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4434.696593750001,"end":4455.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4455.67221875,"end":4457.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4458.8447187500005,"end":4459.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4460.65034375,"end":4461.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4461.76409375,"end":4468.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4469.189093749999,"end":4480.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4481.5584687499995,"end":4488.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4488.34221875,"end":4506.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4506.53346875,"end":4508.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4509.19971875,"end":4513.165343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4513.70534375,"end":4516.202843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4516.52346875,"end":4528.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4528.825343750001,"end":4532.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4532.74034375,"end":4534.866593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4535.4403437500005,"end":4544.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4545.71721875,"end":4550.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4551.28596875,"end":4553.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4553.78346875,"end":4558.019093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4558.18784375,"end":4567.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4568.07659375,"end":4572.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4572.39659375,"end":4575.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4575.82221875,"end":4576.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4576.109093749999,"end":4578.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4576.19346875,"end":4576.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4578.96096875,"end":4586.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4586.6053437499995,"end":4588.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4588.394093749999,"end":4591.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4591.88721875,"end":4599.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4599.85221875,"end":4601.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4600.4090937500005,"end":4601.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4601.624093750001,"end":4607.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4607.83409375,"end":4609.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4612.305968750001,"end":4616.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4616.794718749999,"end":4626.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4626.63284375,"end":4627.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4628.13471875,"end":4629.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4629.75471875,"end":4633.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4633.70346875,"end":4637.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4636.74096875,"end":4637.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4637.41596875,"end":4641.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4641.0272187499995,"end":4641.314093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4641.314093749999,"end":4644.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4643.45721875,"end":4643.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4644.030968749999,"end":4644.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4644.452843749999,"end":4645.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4644.8240937499995,"end":4644.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4645.78596875,"end":4645.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4645.819718750001,"end":4645.954718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4645.954718749999,"end":4646.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4646.292218750001,"end":4655.050343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4646.376593749999,"end":4647.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4655.6747187500005,"end":4659.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4659.72471875,"end":4664.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4665.52971875,"end":4666.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4667.470343749999,"end":4674.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4675.114718750001,"end":4675.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4675.14846875,"end":4678.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4678.253468749999,"end":4682.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4683.5184687500005,"end":4687.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4685.897843750001,"end":4686.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4686.825968749999,"end":4690.774718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4690.74096875,"end":4691.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4691.010968750001,"end":4691.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4691.061593750001,"end":4691.331593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4692.124718749999,"end":4693.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4694.13284375,"end":4700.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4701.01784375,"end":4711.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4717.47096875,"end":4718.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4718.97284375,"end":4720.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4721.50409375,"end":4722.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4723.157843749999,"end":4723.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4724.0184687500005,"end":4726.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4726.684718750001,"end":4727.798468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4727.9334687499995,"end":4729.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4729.9247187500005,"end":4733.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4734.21096875,"end":4735.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4735.61159375,"end":4737.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4737.43409375,"end":4738.345343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4738.59846875,"end":4744.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4745.196593750001,"end":4746.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4747.08659375,"end":4756.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4757.093468749999,"end":4759.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4759.962218750001,"end":4763.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4763.522843750001,"end":4763.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4763.55659375,"end":4763.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4763.8603437500005,"end":4765.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4765.46346875,"end":4774.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4776.56721875,"end":4779.317843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4780.33034375,"end":4789.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4782.8447187500005,"end":4783.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4789.32471875,"end":4811.751593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4811.852843750001,"end":4814.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4815.00846875,"end":4815.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4815.042218750001,"end":4816.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4817.151593750001,"end":4817.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4818.2822187500005,"end":4832.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4825.302218750001,"end":4825.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4833.33471875,"end":4842.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4842.919718749999,"end":4845.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4845.53534375,"end":4874.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4874.610968749999,"end":4896.126593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4896.126593749999,"end":4896.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4896.227843750001,"end":4896.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4896.278468750001,"end":4896.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4896.936593750001,"end":4896.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4897.47659375,"end":4900.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4903.8553437499995,"end":4904.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4912.579718749999,"end":4916.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4916.190968750001,"end":4916.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4927.4803437499995,"end":4928.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4928.560343749999,"end":4929.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4929.555968750001,"end":4929.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4936.10346875,"end":4937.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4938.39846875,"end":4945.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4945.57034375,"end":4960.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4961.010968750001,"end":4966.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4966.7822187500005,"end":4979.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4979.7928437499995,"end":4984.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4985.091593749999,"end":4987.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4987.89284375,"end":4994.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4994.6259687500005,"end":5036.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5037.269093750001,"end":5064.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5065.163468750001,"end":5067.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5068.437218749999,"end":5073.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5074.22534375,"end":5096.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5085.2615937499995,"end":5085.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5096.669093750001,"end":5097.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5099.13284375,"end":5099.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":5099.35221875,"end":5099.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5100.314093749999,"end":5102.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5102.45721875,"end":5103.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5104.27971875,"end":5105.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5105.86596875,"end":5159.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5158.110968749999,"end":5203.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5203.724093750001,"end":5235.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5235.76971875,"end":5247.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5247.63284375,"end":5257.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5257.28534375,"end":5262.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5262.82034375,"end":5276.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5266.077218750001,"end":5266.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5267.528468750001,"end":5267.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5276.69159375,"end":5314.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5315.234093749999,"end":5384.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5385.687218749999,"end":5407.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5408.35034375,"end":5410.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5410.780343750001,"end":5411.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5411.809718750001,"end":5444.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5444.192843750001,"end":5445.829718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5446.116593750001,"end":5448.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5448.9178437499995,"end":5466.501593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5465.82659375,"end":5496.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5496.96096875,"end":5526.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5526.559718750001,"end":5527.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5527.94346875,"end":5529.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":5531.284718750001,"end":5534.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5535.182843750001,"end":5535.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5556.20909375,"end":5558.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5565.169718749999,"end":5568.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5568.460343750001,"end":5570.147843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5571.00846875,"end":5598.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5598.784718750001,"end":5600.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5601.552218750001,"end":5605.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5603.560343749999,"end":5603.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5604.977843750001,"end":5604.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5604.99471875,"end":5606.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5607.171593749999,"end":5618.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5618.54534375,"end":5620.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5620.0809687500005,"end":5626.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5626.1053437499995,"end":5629.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5629.75034375,"end":5631.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5632.298468749999,"end":5634.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5635.18409375,"end":5636.939093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5637.597218750001,"end":5651.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5637.884093750001,"end":5639.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5651.13096875,"end":5659.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5659.93971875,"end":5663.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5664.95159375,"end":5670.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5670.85784375,"end":5674.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5674.99221875,"end":5679.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5678.82284375,"end":5679.126593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5679.936593750001,"end":5692.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5692.18784375,"end":5704.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5704.962218750001,"end":5726.849093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5727.05159375,"end":5729.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5729.295968750001,"end":5759.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5759.991593750001,"end":5786.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5786.68784375,"end":5793.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5794.264718750001,"end":5807.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5807.950343750001,"end":5849.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5849.96909375,"end":5851.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5851.36971875,"end":5857.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5858.32221875,"end":5873.526593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5873.982218749999,"end":5882.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5882.436593750001,"end":5882.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5883.735968750001,"end":5921.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5894.21534375,"end":5894.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5921.620343750001,"end":5921.8397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5921.97471875,"end":5945.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5946.39284375,"end":5979.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5979.366593750001,"end":5983.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5984.142218750001,"end":5990.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5990.97659375,"end":5995.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5995.80284375,"end":6000.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6001.32096875,"end":6013.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6013.99409375,"end":6026.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6026.8865937499995,"end":6052.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6053.0428437499995,"end":6054.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6054.05534375,"end":6054.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6054.20721875,"end":6054.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6054.29159375,"end":6054.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6054.62909375,"end":6054.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6055.55721875,"end":6086.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6072.499718749999,"end":6072.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6072.786593750001,"end":6072.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6087.16409375,"end":6094.673468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6095.02784375,"end":6097.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6097.862843750001,"end":6100.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6101.08596875,"end":6103.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6103.634093750001,"end":6107.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6108.91596875,"end":6109.489718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6109.89471875,"end":6110.755343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6110.97471875,"end":6112.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6112.965968750001,"end":6113.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6113.759093750001,"end":6120.930968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6117.53909375,"end":6117.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6117.57284375,"end":6117.741593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6117.741593750001,"end":6117.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6120.930968750001,"end":6120.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6121.8084687499995,"end":6124.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6121.825343750001,"end":6122.432843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6124.204718750001,"end":6125.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6125.95971875,"end":6132.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6132.25409375,"end":6142.4803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6142.4803437499995,"end":6162.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6163.017218750001,"end":6164.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6163.962218750001,"end":6166.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6164.92409375,"end":6166.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6166.392218750001,"end":6166.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6166.442843750001,"end":6166.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6167.16846875,"end":6174.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6175.08284375,"end":6176.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6177.462218750001,"end":6178.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6179.35221875,"end":6180.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6181.09034375,"end":6184.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6193.1728437500005,"end":6194.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6205.170968750001,"end":6334.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6335.564093750001,"end":6346.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6346.212218750001,"end":6363.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6363.10409375,"end":6363.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6363.357218749999,"end":6366.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6366.732218749999,"end":6377.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6377.92034375,"end":6383.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6383.91096875,"end":6391.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6391.960343750001,"end":6395.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6395.03159375,"end":6486.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6486.89909375,"end":6491.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6491.13471875,"end":6503.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6492.501593750001,"end":6492.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6493.581593750001,"end":6493.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6495.8934687500005,"end":6496.298468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6502.255343750001,"end":6502.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6503.50409375,"end":6506.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6506.895968750001,"end":6512.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6512.12721875,"end":6526.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6515.468468749999,"end":6515.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6520.80096875,"end":6521.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6526.589093750001,"end":6532.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6528.66471875,"end":6528.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6530.03159375,"end":6533.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6533.2040937500005,"end":6540.359093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6537.25409375,"end":6537.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6540.359093749999,"end":6540.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6540.831593750001,"end":6540.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6540.966593749999,"end":6541.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6541.08471875,"end":6541.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6541.118468750001,"end":6541.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6541.23659375,"end":6541.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6541.27034375,"end":6541.439093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6541.439093750001,"end":6541.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6541.52346875,"end":6591.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6591.608468750001,"end":6628.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6600.85596875,"end":6601.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6628.075343750001,"end":6702.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6703.28721875,"end":6729.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6727.04721875,"end":6727.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6730.810343749999,"end":6759.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6732.80159375,"end":6733.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6733.71284375,"end":6733.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6733.98284375,"end":6733.999718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6733.999718749999,"end":6734.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6734.7928437499995,"end":6734.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6760.8309687500005,"end":6779.376593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6779.292218750001,"end":6797.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6796.251593750001,"end":6796.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6798.225968750001,"end":6803.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6812.232218749999,"end":6821.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6822.930968750001,"end":6824.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6833.07284375,"end":6834.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6834.4228437500005,"end":6848.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6849.272843750001,"end":6861.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6861.52409375,"end":6874.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6875.952218750001,"end":6915.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6916.587218750001,"end":6921.649718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6921.919718749999,"end":6935.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6936.0947187500005,"end":6942.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6942.47346875,"end":6947.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6947.18159375,"end":6952.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6952.32846875,"end":6954.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6954.15096875,"end":6957.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6956.83409375,"end":6958.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6958.36971875,"end":6959.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6959.6522187499995,"end":6961.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6961.28909375,"end":6970.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6961.778468750001,"end":6962.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6970.857218749999,"end":6987.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6986.5340937500005,"end":7008.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6996.608468750001,"end":6996.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":6996.76034375,"end":6996.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6996.96284375,"end":6997.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7005.77159375,"end":7006.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7007.054093750001,"end":7015.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7013.7197187500005,"end":7017.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7017.19596875,"end":7017.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7017.21284375,"end":7018.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7017.499718750001,"end":7044.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7018.74846875,"end":7018.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7018.7822187500005,"end":7018.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7018.967843750001,"end":7019.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7044.415343750001,"end":7051.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7045.208468750001,"end":7047.8240937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7050.15284375,"end":7071.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7055.77221875,"end":7055.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":7055.78909375,"end":7056.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7065.880343750001,"end":7066.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7068.934718750001,"end":7080.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7080.84846875,"end":7101.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7101.604718750001,"end":7106.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7106.8865937499995,"end":7110.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7111.37534375,"end":7120.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7120.6903437500005,"end":7127.153468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7127.524718750001,"end":7135.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7136.232218749999,"end":7140.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7138.1053437499995,"end":7138.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7140.06284375,"end":7141.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7141.66596875,"end":7142.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7141.98659375,"end":7145.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7145.614718750001,"end":7150.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7150.71096875,"end":7151.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7150.74471875,"end":7153.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7154.35596875,"end":7157.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7157.27534375,"end":7158.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7158.54096875,"end":7161.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7160.68409375,"end":7161.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7161.747218750001,"end":7167.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7164.227843750001,"end":7173.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7168.868468750001,"end":7169.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7169.50971875,"end":7170.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7170.977843750001,"end":7172.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7172.800343750001,"end":7174.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7173.89721875,"end":7175.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7175.12909375,"end":7175.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7175.31471875,"end":7183.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7183.819718750001,"end":7189.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7187.802218750001,"end":7188.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7188.409718750001,"end":7189.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7189.9959687499995,"end":7222.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7223.54346875,"end":7242.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7243.08471875,"end":7243.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7243.89471875,"end":7250.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7251.977843750001,"end":7254.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7255.31909375,"end":7264.870343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7263.30096875,"end":7268.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7268.667218750001,"end":7272.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7272.885968750001,"end":7274.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7274.40471875,"end":7277.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7278.06659375,"end":7278.876593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7278.876593750001,"end":7279.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7279.23096875,"end":7280.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7281.10409375,"end":7281.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7281.23909375,"end":7282.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7282.065968750001,"end":7285.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7285.45784375,"end":7303.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7303.210343750001,"end":7312.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7311.9178437499995,"end":7318.110968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7316.895968750001,"end":7345.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":7332.67409375,"end":7333.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7344.75659375,"end":7356.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7348.064093750001,"end":7351.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7356.11346875,"end":7370.524718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7371.503468750001,"end":7391.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7392.175343750001,"end":7440.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7440.75846875,"end":7441.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7442.64846875,"end":7452.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7453.1278437500005,"end":7455.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7455.47346875,"end":7458.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7459.32096875,"end":7461.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7461.970343750001,"end":7468.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7467.370343750001,"end":7475.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7474.4072187500005,"end":7505.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7506.0478437500005,"end":7508.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7507.499093750001,"end":7507.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7509.94596875,"end":7512.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7513.354718750001,"end":7528.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7513.42221875,"end":7514.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7528.27221875,"end":7530.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7530.48284375,"end":7628.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7628.7459687499995,"end":7631.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7630.8553437499995,"end":7631.513468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7631.007218750001,"end":7649.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7631.513468749999,"end":7631.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7650.835343750001,"end":7653.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7666.815968750001,"end":7670.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7671.794093750001,"end":7679.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7679.607218749999,"end":7683.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7683.825968749999,"end":7687.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7688.095343750001,"end":7695.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7711.12971875,"end":7728.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7726.874093750001,"end":7728.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7729.23659375,"end":7731.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7731.885968750001,"end":7735.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7734.2147187499995,"end":7737.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7735.817843750001,"end":7739.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7739.564093750001,"end":7758.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7758.413468750001,"end":7761.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7761.417218750001,"end":7784.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7786.27409375,"end":7791.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7791.404093749999,"end":7795.251593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7795.36971875,"end":7806.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7806.10221875,"end":7808.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7806.15284375,"end":7806.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7807.536593750001,"end":7816.817843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7816.51409375,"end":7856.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7820.6990937499995,"end":7821.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7856.6259687500005,"end":7874.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7874.96909375,"end":7876.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7876.57221875,"end":7884.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7884.01409375,"end":7886.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7886.8153437500005,"end":7889.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7889.245343750001,"end":7895.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7895.59034375,"end":7900.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7900.0790937500005,"end":7900.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7900.635968750001,"end":7901.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7901.54721875,"end":7942.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7943.481593750001,"end":7968.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7966.499093750001,"end":7966.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7967.612843750001,"end":7995.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7996.09784375,"end":7996.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7996.70534375,"end":7997.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7998.966593749999,"end":8002.814093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8002.341593749999,"end":8003.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8005.19346875,"end":8005.4803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8006.96534375,"end":8007.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8007.4715937500005,"end":8020.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8020.920968750001,"end":8027.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8027.8397187499995,"end":8049.169718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8049.05159375,"end":8050.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8050.722218750001,"end":8072.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8073.06471875,"end":8112.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8113.75034375,"end":8120.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8119.859093750001,"end":8121.0740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8121.10784375,"end":8124.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8123.706593750001,"end":8124.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8124.651593750001,"end":8124.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8124.85409375,"end":8127.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8126.1365937499995,"end":8136.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8136.042218750001,"end":8150.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8149.89659375,"end":8157.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8155.43159375,"end":8161.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8161.017218750001,"end":8162.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8162.58659375,"end":8163.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8163.66659375,"end":8210.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8211.051593750002,"end":8244.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8243.45159375,"end":8243.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8244.19409375,"end":8282.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8284.32284375,"end":8286.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8285.200343750003,"end":8300.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8301.24846875,"end":8323.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8301.332843750002,"end":8301.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8323.55721875,"end":8329.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8330.18909375,"end":8414.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8416.437218750001,"end":8430.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8431.40534375,"end":8434.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8434.797218750002,"end":8442.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8442.03659375,"end":8455.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8456.262218750002,"end":8460.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8460.49784375,"end":8460.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8460.56534375,"end":8461.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8460.734093750001,"end":8465.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8465.52659375,"end":8465.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8465.543468750002,"end":8484.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8485.371593750002,"end":8487.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8487.54846875,"end":8489.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8490.214718750001,"end":8511.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8511.39284375,"end":8514.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8514.329093750002,"end":8519.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8519.020343750002,"end":8522.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8522.14221875,"end":8526.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8526.040343750003,"end":8528.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8528.04846875,"end":8533.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8534.410343750002,"end":8541.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8542.98284375,"end":8545.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8544.180968750003,"end":8544.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8544.265343750001,"end":8545.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8545.480343750001,"end":8545.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8545.919093750003,"end":8545.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8545.952843750001,"end":8553.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8553.79971875,"end":8565.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8564.987843750001,"end":8571.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8571.957218750002,"end":8575.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8574.77534375,"end":8608.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8609.04846875,"end":8615.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8614.347218750001,"end":8622.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8619.08909375,"end":8620.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8621.40096875,"end":8621.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8623.324718750002,"end":8624.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8623.915343750003,"end":8629.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8629.24784375,"end":8632.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8632.67346875,"end":8634.495968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8634.495968750001,"end":8636.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8637.36471875,"end":8640.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8640.85784375,"end":8642.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8643.524093750002,"end":8650.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8651.910968750002,"end":8654.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8655.31971875,"end":8660.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8660.88846875,"end":8663.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8664.01034375,"end":8685.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8686.386593750001,"end":8688.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8689.390343750001,"end":8690.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8691.347843750002,"end":8693.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8693.879093750002,"end":8698.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8698.55346875,"end":8700.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8700.86534375,"end":8725.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8725.92471875,"end":8743.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8743.778468750003,"end":8744.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8745.921593750001,"end":8746.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8747.28846875,"end":8748.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8749.43159375,"end":8750.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8750.612843750001,"end":8751.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8752.60409375,"end":8753.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8754.39284375,"end":8756.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8756.97471875,"end":8757.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8758.172843750002,"end":8759.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8759.860343750002,"end":8760.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8761.277843750002,"end":8762.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8762.914718750002,"end":8766.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8768.83784375,"end":8774.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8773.562843750002,"end":8773.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8774.33909375,"end":8776.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8776.11096875,"end":8777.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8776.58346875,"end":8782.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8783.063468750002,"end":8784.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8785.66221875,"end":8792.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8792.26034375,"end":8800.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8800.832843750002,"end":8812.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8813.438468750002,"end":8826.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":8826.617843750002,"end":8827.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8827.86659375,"end":8838.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8839.08846875,"end":8844.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8886.59159375,"end":8887.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8928.812843750002,"end":8929.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8952.690968750001,"end":8954.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8958.968468750001,"end":8959.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8959.035968750002,"end":8959.761593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8959.879718750002,"end":8959.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8984.972843750002,"end":8985.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8988.128468750001,"end":8989.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":8989.309718750003,"end":8991.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9106.962218750003,"end":9107.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9107.14784375,"end":9107.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9107.97471875,"end":9108.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9108.02534375,"end":9108.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9108.29534375,"end":9108.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9108.329093750002,"end":9108.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9108.49784375,"end":9108.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9108.56534375,"end":9108.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9108.91971875,"end":9109.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9109.02096875,"end":9109.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9109.03784375,"end":9109.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9109.122218750003,"end":9109.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9109.18971875,"end":9109.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9109.30784375,"end":9109.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9109.34159375,"end":9109.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9109.40909375,"end":9109.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9109.51034375,"end":9109.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9109.544093750003,"end":9109.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9109.81409375,"end":9109.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9109.915343750003,"end":9110.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9119.31471875,"end":9120.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9121.57596875,"end":9122.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9122.554718750001,"end":9122.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9122.976593750001,"end":9123.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9123.077843750001,"end":9123.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9123.972218750001,"end":9124.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9124.22534375,"end":9124.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9124.259093750003,"end":9124.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9125.42346875,"end":9129.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9167.070968750002,"end":9167.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9167.745968750001,"end":9172.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9181.617218750001,"end":9186.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9186.949718750002,"end":9190.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9192.72096875,"end":9193.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9193.39596875,"end":9194.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9194.695343750001,"end":9196.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9196.77096875,"end":9196.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":9196.804718750001,"end":9196.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9200.85471875,"end":9205.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9205.765343750001,"end":9207.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9207.53721875,"end":9208.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9209.309093750002,"end":9210.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9211.23284375,"end":9213.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9213.88221875,"end":9216.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9217.493468750003,"end":9220.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9221.695343750001,"end":9225.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9225.77909375,"end":9226.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9227.26409375,"end":9228.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9229.37346875,"end":9231.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9233.625968750002,"end":9235.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9235.27971875,"end":9236.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9237.000968750002,"end":9239.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9240.730343750001,"end":9241.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9242.519093750001,"end":9251.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9252.914093750001,"end":9254.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9254.93909375,"end":9257.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9258.465968750003,"end":9259.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9260.64284375,"end":9261.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9262.16159375,"end":9263.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9264.65909375,"end":9271.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9271.628468750001,"end":9272.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9273.113468750002,"end":9281.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9281.196593750003,"end":9282.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9283.32284375,"end":9287.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9287.27159375,"end":9290.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9290.882843750001,"end":9291.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9293.34659375,"end":9296.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9296.97471875,"end":9300.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9300.754718750002,"end":9306.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9307.42034375,"end":9310.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9311.352218750002,"end":9312.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9313.00596875,"end":9314.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9315.33471875,"end":9316.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9316.58346875,"end":9319.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9319.92471875,"end":9323.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9323.87346875,"end":9333.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9334.20096875,"end":9335.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9335.90534375,"end":9344.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9344.899718750003,"end":9346.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9347.414093750001,"end":9348.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9348.76409375,"end":9350.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9351.278468750003,"end":9354.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9355.227218750002,"end":9356.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9357.589718750001,"end":9359.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9360.27284375,"end":9360.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9360.340343750002,"end":9360.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9360.542843750001,"end":9361.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9362.078468750002,"end":9363.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9365.234093750001,"end":9371.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9371.12346875,"end":9376.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9372.92909375,"end":9374.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9374.886593750001,"end":9375.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9378.278468750003,"end":9380.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9380.77596875,"end":9383.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9383.594093750002,"end":9385.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9385.93971875,"end":9387.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9388.825343750003,"end":9389.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9390.68159375,"end":9393.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9393.75284375,"end":9410.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9412.93971875,"end":9413.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9414.32346875,"end":9418.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9418.407218750002,"end":9419.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9420.077843750001,"end":9421.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9422.102843750003,"end":9422.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9423.891593750002,"end":9430.742843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9431.13096875,"end":9432.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9432.059093750002,"end":9437.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9435.72096875,"end":9436.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9436.598468750002,"end":9438.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9437.62784375,"end":9439.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9440.074718750002,"end":9444.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9443.770343750002,"end":9449.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9449.84534375,"end":9455.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9456.274718750003,"end":9463.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9464.35784375,"end":9465.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9465.606593750003,"end":9468.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9468.390968750002,"end":9472.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9473.402843750002,"end":9474.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9475.52909375,"end":9476.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9476.37284375,"end":9476.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9476.91284375,"end":9476.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9476.96346875,"end":9478.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9478.97159375,"end":9485.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9483.96659375,"end":9484.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9485.046593750001,"end":9490.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9486.312218750001,"end":9487.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9491.813468750002,"end":9492.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9493.956593750001,"end":9495.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9496.36971875,"end":9497.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9498.68159375,"end":9500.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9501.044093750003,"end":9502.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9502.95096875,"end":9503.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9504.11534375,"end":9506.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9507.43971875,"end":9510.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9511.371593750002,"end":9511.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9511.472843750002,"end":9517.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9517.277843750002,"end":9518.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9517.76721875,"end":9517.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9519.437843750002,"end":9521.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9521.53034375,"end":9523.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9528.22971875,"end":9532.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9531.925343750001,"end":9534.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9534.64221875,"end":9543.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9543.72096875,"end":9545.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9546.539093750001,"end":9547.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9550.184093750002,"end":9552.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9552.83346875,"end":9552.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9552.867218750001,"end":9553.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9555.077843750001,"end":9563.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9564.03846875,"end":9567.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9567.97034375,"end":9568.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9568.18971875,"end":9571.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9568.29096875,"end":9569.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9571.176593750002,"end":9571.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9571.429718750001,"end":9574.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9574.68659375,"end":9584.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9584.54159375,"end":9587.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9587.96721875,"end":9589.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9589.03034375,"end":9589.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9589.06409375,"end":9593.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9593.637218750002,"end":9593.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9593.65409375,"end":9593.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9594.88596875,"end":9596.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9597.737843750001,"end":9600.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9600.37034375,"end":9605.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9605.73659375,"end":9606.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9607.812218750001,"end":9608.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9609.01034375,"end":9612.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9612.368468750003,"end":9613.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9613.75221875,"end":9614.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9617.565968750001,"end":9618.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9618.831593750001,"end":9618.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9618.88221875,"end":9621.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9622.425968750002,"end":9625.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9625.76721875,"end":9628.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9629.26034375,"end":9630.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9631.184093750002,"end":9632.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9632.48346875,"end":9633.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9634.67721875,"end":9643.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9644.39721875,"end":9657.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9658.082843750002,"end":9667.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9659.31471875,"end":9659.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9662.132843750001,"end":9664.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9667.296593750001,"end":9669.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9668.309093750002,"end":9668.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9669.355343750001,"end":9670.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9670.199093750001,"end":9672.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9672.93284375,"end":9673.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9674.856593750003,"end":9676.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9675.81846875,"end":9676.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9677.269718750002,"end":9680.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9681.08346875,"end":9687.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9681.134093750003,"end":9681.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9688.390343750001,"end":9689.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9691.613468750002,"end":9696.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9698.211593750002,"end":9698.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9698.886593750001,"end":9703.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9703.78034375,"end":9710.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9706.530968750001,"end":9708.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9710.597843750002,"end":9716.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9716.706593750001,"end":9717.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9718.934093750002,"end":9726.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9728.08034375,"end":9730.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9730.797218750002,"end":9732.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9732.56909375,"end":9736.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9737.699093750001,"end":9740.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9741.344093750002,"end":9742.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9743.402843750002,"end":9744.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9744.398468750001,"end":9744.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9744.887843750003,"end":9748.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9748.718468750001,"end":9751.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9749.039093750001,"end":9749.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9752.211593750002,"end":9754.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9755.50221875,"end":9758.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9759.805343750002,"end":9765.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9766.454093750002,"end":9767.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9768.58034375,"end":9769.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9770.284718750001,"end":9776.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9776.29221875,"end":9776.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9776.37659375,"end":9777.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9777.86159375,"end":9777.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9777.91221875,"end":9783.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9778.249718750001,"end":9778.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9787.024718750003,"end":9791.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9791.61471875,"end":9793.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9794.230343750001,"end":9794.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9796.64346875,"end":9797.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9797.36909375,"end":9799.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9800.153468750003,"end":9801.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9802.16159375,"end":9804.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9805.789718750002,"end":9807.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9807.49409375,"end":9808.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9809.13096875,"end":9810.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9812.421593750001,"end":9813.805343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9813.957218750002,"end":9815.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9815.83034375,"end":9817.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9818.294093750003,"end":9819.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9819.863468750002,"end":9821.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9821.601593750001,"end":9823.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9824.200343750003,"end":9827.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9827.49096875,"end":9829.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9829.988468750002,"end":9835.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9836.87346875,"end":9839.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9839.94471875,"end":9841.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9842.543468750002,"end":9845.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9845.47971875,"end":9847.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9848.129093750002,"end":9849.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9849.242843750002,"end":9852.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9853.664093750001,"end":9857.562218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9868.88534375,"end":9869.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9870.37034375,"end":9871.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9871.500968750002,"end":9873.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9874.133468750002,"end":9875.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9876.58034375,"end":9877.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9877.62659375,"end":9879.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9879.53346875,"end":9879.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":9880.15784375,"end":9880.343468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9880.84971875,"end":9882.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9884.562218750001,"end":9886.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9887.80221875,"end":9889.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9889.45596875,"end":9890.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9890.77221875,"end":9892.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9893.472218750001,"end":9894.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9894.83909375,"end":9896.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9897.488468750002,"end":9898.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9900.222218750001,"end":9902.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9903.83346875,"end":9905.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9905.301593750002,"end":9906.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9906.668468750002,"end":9909.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9911.17409375,"end":9912.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9912.43971875,"end":9914.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9916.118468750003,"end":9918.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9918.362843750001,"end":9919.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9920.77596875,"end":9921.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9922.598468750002,"end":9924.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9924.859718750002,"end":9925.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9926.648468750001,"end":9929.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9930.563468750002,"end":9932.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9933.820343750001,"end":9937.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9938.579093750002,"end":9940.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9942.24096875,"end":9944.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9945.059093750002,"end":9947.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9948.265343750001,"end":9949.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9950.05409375,"end":9951.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9952.63596875,"end":9953.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9953.90159375,"end":9955.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9956.753468750001,"end":9958.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9959.47034375,"end":9961.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9964.245968750001,"end":9967.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9964.296593750001,"end":9970.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9970.118468750003,"end":9972.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9973.004093750002,"end":9974.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9975.687218750001,"end":9979.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9979.83846875,"end":9980.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9981.222218750001,"end":9982.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9982.555343750002,"end":9982.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9983.14596875,"end":9983.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9983.36534375,"end":9983.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9985.22159375,"end":9985.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9985.25534375,"end":9986.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9987.48284375,"end":9989.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9989.727218750002,"end":9990.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9990.621593750002,"end":9994.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":9995.430968750003,"end":9999.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10000.206593750001,"end":10003.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10004.18909375,"end":10005.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10005.910343750002,"end":10007.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10008.84659375,"end":10010.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10010.90534375,"end":10011.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10013.031593750002,"end":10013.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10014.33096875,"end":10016.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10016.71034375,"end":10018.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10018.58346875,"end":10019.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10019.528468750003,"end":10022.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10022.97096875,"end":10023.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10025.08034375,"end":10026.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10026.61596875,"end":10026.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10026.632843750001,"end":10027.847843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10026.97034375,"end":10027.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10027.004093750002,"end":10027.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10027.476593750001,"end":10027.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10027.98284375,"end":10028.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10028.050343750001,"end":10028.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10028.28659375,"end":10030.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10028.52284375,"end":10028.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10028.57346875,"end":10028.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10028.60721875,"end":10029.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10031.62784375,"end":10037.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10036.89284375,"end":10039.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10039.778468750003,"end":10040.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10040.41971875,"end":10041.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10040.68971875,"end":10040.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10041.921593750001,"end":10046.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10047.473468750002,"end":10059.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10059.08346875,"end":10060.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10061.378468750001,"end":10064.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10064.31471875,"end":10064.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10064.85471875,"end":10070.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10070.42346875,"end":10076.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10078.422218750002,"end":10090.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10090.605968750002,"end":10094.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10094.47034375,"end":10124.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10123.613468750002,"end":10126.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10126.414718750002,"end":10128.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10126.95471875,"end":10130.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10130.414093750001,"end":10132.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10133.367218750001,"end":10144.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10138.109093750001,"end":10139.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10144.605968750002,"end":10144.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10144.99409375,"end":10146.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10147.17096875,"end":10151.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10152.199718750002,"end":10152.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10153.347218750001,"end":10153.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10153.38096875,"end":10154.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10153.43159375,"end":10153.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10153.465343750002,"end":10153.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10153.515968750002,"end":10153.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10153.785968750002,"end":10153.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10153.97159375,"end":10154.106593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10154.562218750001,"end":10157.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10158.91596875,"end":10159.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10160.907218750002,"end":10162.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10163.23596875,"end":10165.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10166.644718750002,"end":10172.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10172.331593750001,"end":10173.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10173.83346875,"end":10176.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10176.550343750001,"end":10176.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10177.54596875,"end":10178.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10178.980343750001,"end":10180.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10181.86596875,"end":10182.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10183.23284375,"end":10184.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10184.54909375,"end":10185.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10185.156593750002,"end":10193.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10193.594093750002,"end":10197.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10197.84659375,"end":10199.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10197.99846875,"end":10198.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10200.58034375,"end":10201.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10202.031593750002,"end":10205.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10206.18284375,"end":10207.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10208.089718750001,"end":10210.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10212.696593750003,"end":10214.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10214.856593750003,"end":10215.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10216.13909375,"end":10236.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10236.524093750002,"end":10239.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10239.49409375,"end":10245.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10246.51409375,"end":10248.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10246.73346875,"end":10252.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10252.09971875,"end":10253.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10252.757843750001,"end":10254.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10255.390343750001,"end":10259.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10257.938468750002,"end":10258.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10259.89596875,"end":10263.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10263.254093750002,"end":10264.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10263.895343750002,"end":10263.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10264.33409375,"end":10270.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10271.894093750001,"end":10282.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10282.10346875,"end":10282.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10282.137218750002,"end":10282.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10282.15409375,"end":10282.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10282.187843750002,"end":10282.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10283.031593750002,"end":10285.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10286.254718750002,"end":10294.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10295.940968750001,"end":10297.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10298.539718750002,"end":10300.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10300.125968750002,"end":10300.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10302.25221875,"end":10303.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10304.969093750002,"end":10307.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10309.37346875,"end":10315.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10309.390343750001,"end":10309.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10317.102218750002,"end":10323.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10324.324718750002,"end":10329.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10330.04534375,"end":10334.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10336.79534375,"end":10374.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10374.308468750001,"end":10376.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10410.40409375,"end":10411.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10411.855343750001,"end":10411.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10412.00721875,"end":10413.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10414.31909375,"end":10414.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10414.386593750001,"end":10415.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10415.331593750001,"end":10415.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10415.80409375,"end":10416.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10416.00659375,"end":10420.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10416.023468750001,"end":10416.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10416.664718750002,"end":10418.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10420.934093750002,"end":10421.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10421.91284375,"end":10422.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10422.199718750002,"end":10423.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10428.730343750001,"end":10430.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10430.417843750001,"end":10430.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10430.97471875,"end":10431.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10431.750968750002,"end":10432.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10441.26846875,"end":10444.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10444.137218750002,"end":10445.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10444.15409375,"end":10445.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10445.52096875,"end":10445.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10445.85846875,"end":10445.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10445.925968750002,"end":10445.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10445.976593750001,"end":10446.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10446.75284375,"end":10449.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10449.824093750001,"end":10451.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10450.02659375,"end":10453.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10452.18659375,"end":10453.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10453.40159375,"end":10457.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10454.987843750001,"end":10455.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10455.03846875,"end":10455.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10457.19846875,"end":10460.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10457.56971875,"end":10459.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10459.24034375,"end":10459.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10460.67471875,"end":10464.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10464.809093750002,"end":10470.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10470.023468750001,"end":10470.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10470.090968750003,"end":10470.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10470.293468750002,"end":10474.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10472.36909375,"end":10473.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10475.659718750001,"end":10475.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10476.149093750002,"end":10476.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10476.503468750001,"end":10476.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10476.520343750002,"end":10476.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":10476.722843750002,"end":10476.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10476.90846875,"end":10478.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10477.937843750002,"end":10478.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10478.91659375,"end":10479.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10479.034718750001,"end":10481.110343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10479.13596875,"end":10483.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10482.49409375,"end":10483.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10485.362843750001,"end":10489.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10490.57721875,"end":10491.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10491.184718750003,"end":10492.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10492.028468750003,"end":10492.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10492.079093750002,"end":10492.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10492.68659375,"end":10494.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10492.72034375,"end":10492.99034375}],"whisperx":[]}},{"id":"159044","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159044","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f6852762d9a5ef152ba53b8a5773cfe3dbbf0a69acbcd9c1c56c01e1ed2fe403d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:29:30 - 09:31:45","影片長度":"00:02:15","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T09:29:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T09:31:45+08:00","duration":135,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.9290937500000003,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.33471875000001,"end":93.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.73346875,"end":133.90034375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.877,"end":21.594,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席我想本院本席跟羅明才還有楊瓊英等20個人有建議青年不僅代表整個國家的未來更反映整個國家的現在"},{"start":22.956,"end":35.39,"text":"各界不斷呼籲應要重視青年強調投資青年就是投資整個國家的未來隨青年人口逐漸減少產業結構轉型全球經濟市場競爭加劇"},{"start":41.917,"end":66.711,"text":"那資訊科技發展日新月異等外部環境的變遷使得當前青年所面臨的局勢更加複雜多變那相較於兒童長者身心障礙皆有專法來明定重要的施政方向以及內容唯獨就是缺少青年政策的專法"},{"start":67.631,"end":92.192,"text":"那若沒有妥善考慮年輕人的未來將導致整個國家陷入整個惡性的循環那如今我國已進入高齡化少子化的社會為重視青年主體性政府也應該要將資源投注在15歲到35歲青年的發展那本席等這個"},{"start":95.01,"end":123.928,"text":"制定就是青年發展基本法草案各級政府應寬列青年發展經費以保障專款專用政府應給予誘因來鼓勵青年儲蓄不僅可以累積創業資金透過財經素養提升作為第一筆投資的基金以協助青年朋友遠離貧窮讓青年能獲得政府"},{"start":125.188,"end":133.233,"text":"這個更多資源的支持來搭配民間資源的引進以促進青年發展事為有當進行公決以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159043","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159043","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f36cd06e2219307eeba53b8a5773cfe3dbbf0a69acbcd9c1cb90a6bc0bf914cf75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"09:27:36 - 09:29:25","影片長度":"00:01:49","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T09:27:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T09:29:25+08:00","duration":109,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.658468750000001,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.180968750000002,"end":45.846593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.08284375,"end":107.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.84096875,"end":110.19096875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.874,"end":28.041,"text":"非常謝謝趙偉今天安排我們來審這個青年基本法我想現行法制對於未滿12歲的兒童及12歲以上未滿18歲的少年有兒童及少年福利權益保障法以及兒童及少年未來教育及發展帳戶的條例等相關的一個立法"},{"start":28.681,"end":44.088,"text":"而對於45歲以上中高齡以及高齡者亦有中高齡者以及高齡者就業促進法老人福利法等制度青年是整個社會進步的原動力在少子化的現在更是關鍵我們都"},{"start":46.269,"end":61.858,"text":"曾經青年或者是正在青年我想在現階段青年是成為國家競爭力的一個關鍵18歲到35歲的青年至今仍未有相關法制化的一個立法保證"},{"start":62.799,"end":92.019,"text":"我想未來有更多的青年專責機構甚至青年發展基金甚至能夠參考各國對於青年基本法的一些案例我們來加以實現加以立法對於現階段鼓勵青年自我實現保障青年發展的一個權利促進青年在政治經濟社會文化數位科技等層面的一個參與是確立國家青年發展的一個施政方針"},{"start":92.979,"end":106.682,"text":"我們希望在這一次青年基本法的草案能夠全面性的探討大家一起來努力讓整個青年法治的健全多元以及全面性的發展一起大家共同來努力謝謝大家 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159041","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159041","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f292db5af91e1af90ba53b8a5773cfe3dbbf0a69acbcd9c1c267846fbddf791135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:22:44 - 09:27:30","影片長度":"00:04:46","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T09:22:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T09:27:30+08:00","duration":286,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.17346875,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.375343750000003,"end":33.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.78096875,"end":54.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.36409375,"end":82.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.27534375,"end":142.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.60784375,"end":285.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.34471875,"end":287.64846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.592,"end":32.415,"text":"好 謝謝主席在場的各位同仁感謝趙偉安排今天的法案審查也感謝全國青年們對這一部法案長久以來的支持跟期待青年是國家的希望和未來青年也是推動社會進步發展的重要力量青年時期更是價值觀 人生觀 世界觀形成的關鍵階段"},{"start":33.871,"end":54.28,"text":"跟青年有關的政策面向非常的多元尤其在這個快速變動的數位化的時代裡面國家應該如何協助和陪伴青年們融入社會安居樂業為他們提供發揮影響力的機會讓他們未來可以過上更好的日子這都是我們需要共同努力的方向"},{"start":55.424,"end":79.933,"text":"本席的青年基本法草案涵蓋以下幾個重點第一個因應基礎的科技以及醫療科技的進步人口高齡化的趨勢平均餘命可以說是越來越長我們這邊也很仔細做了分析民國元年的時候男性平均的餘命是35歲女性39民國40年的時候男性平均餘命53歲女性是56歲"},{"start":83.374,"end":97.315,"text":"到了民國80年的時候男性平均的餘命是72歲女性是77歲那也恭喜各位到了民國111年的時候全體國人的平均餘命是將近80歲接下來很可能會到90 100"},{"start":99.238,"end":115.686,"text":"根據非常多的科技的前瞻的研究指出我們的平均餘命可能會勢必再增加延長甚至到120歲甚至到150歲因此我的版本提高青年定義的年齡標準到未滿45歲這個是為了因應未來社會的變遷以及科技的進步"},{"start":120.948,"end":141.331,"text":"第二點草案中除了包含教育環境、就業、創業、健康、居住等等的面向之外呢也因應數位科技的快速的發展我會將青年數位平權的理念同時納入並且強調青年文化保留跟創意發揮的重要性我相信在座的官員應該都非常認同"},{"start":142.728,"end":171.915,"text":"第三點青年公共政策參與的部分也非常重要AI的時代來臨未來的工作形式可能改變我們認為人類會有一個非常重要的工作只有人可以做的就是公民服務公共的參與我們認為政府應該積極的為青年建立更多公共事務參與的管道之外也應該要給予賠利的機制讓有意參與的青年能夠更容易的找到資源取得資源並且在運用資源以後能夠進一步的回饋給社會"},{"start":172.695,"end":201.87,"text":"讓社會在整個政循環當中呢一步一步的向前邁進那此外呢也根據青年署網站呢非常清楚的資料顯示目前設有青年局的縣市呢其實只有台北市新北市桃園市彰化縣以及高雄市其他的縣市呢則是將青年發展的業務呢組織單位放在不同的體系之下比如說教育局啊勞動局啊社會局啊產發局啊甚至研考會等等這也凸顯了青年的政策是面向多元但是呢"},{"start":202.11,"end":230.612,"text":"也凸顯了我們可能需要更好的跨部會協調跟統籌那第五點有鑒於現行青年發展署屬於三級機關我們也希望跨部會的事宜應該要能夠更積極地做跨層級跨部會的協調整合所以我的版本本席的版本也將設置行政院層級的新年事務協調匯報以提高未來青年政策跨領域跨部會跨部會跨領域的執行成效那最後也是最重要的"},{"start":231.252,"end":248.519,"text":"在本席的草案當中呢也明定了政府應該設置青年發展基金讓上述所提到的各項青年政策可以持續的有一筆專款可以來落實讓他可以更加的中立更加的永續還錢於青年"},{"start":250.16,"end":265.491,"text":"最後我想要再次強調青年真的是我們國家發展的重要角色跟命脈也是推動社會進步的重要力量對於整個國家未來發展呢真的是最高的重要性因此我們期待可以透過青年基本法的法制高度"},{"start":265.931,"end":282.884,"text":"由政府建構各個面向的整合性支持也不能只有教育部也不能只有青年發展署我們也希望行政院包含總統包含全民社會都一起來陪伴青年們找到每個人獨特的熱情和天賦讓青年在國家政策的支持之下可以茁壯讓我們一起邁向未來的願景謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159039","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159039","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f6883993b1ee10345ba53b8a5773cfe3dbbf0a69acbcd9c1c1103ba6c49e276325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"09:18:42 - 09:22:36","影片長度":"00:03:54","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T09:18:42+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T09:22:36+08:00","duration":234,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.3215937500000003,"end":214.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.40534375,"end":115.64159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.20409375000003,"end":231.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.09159375000002,"end":235.97721875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.199,"end":10.362,"text":"謝謝主席昨天我也非常的高興和我們交委以及交文會的現場有陳秀寶委員以及多位委員一起共同來召開記者會就是希望呼籲這個會期我們希望可以把青年基本法送出立法院來三讀完成"},{"start":23.507,"end":28.671,"text":"那在上個會期呢五月份就是去年的五月份我剛進到立法院三個月當時也很感謝我們委員會就已經召開了青年基本法的公聽會在公聽會當中我們有諸多的學生代表與會出席也讓我們立法院的成員"},{"start":42.202,"end":59.513,"text":"也聆聽到了更多來自於在學生社會青年以及地方政府各個單位大家對於青年基本法大家的想像那所以很高興現在我們是在進行可以說是最後一里路那今天我也有提案版本在進行版本說明之前我還是想要來說明一下它的歷程那也希望再次的呼籲我們希望青年基本法已經刻不容緩因為呢非常的遺憾"},{"start":69.119,"end":94.721,"text":"在2016年的時候11月10號當時國民黨文傳會有召開一個記者會把2016年我們的行政院青年諮詢委員會稱為是黑機關 稱為是肥貓那今天我們在討論的青年基本法當中我的版本以及多位版本也呼籲未來要有青年的專責機構所以我希望我們立法院跨黨派不同的委員大家都可以基於青年權益"},{"start":95.982,"end":102.348,"text":"的需要以及保障可以理性的來進行接下來的討論那過去我們非常的重視青年的權益所以包括我們過去政府推動了高中職免選費我們的310租金補貼的擴大以及在今年也成立了青年百億圓夢"},{"start":116.14,"end":123.024,"text":"計劃這些方案都是希望政府能夠做青年的後盾這一次我們希望來訂定青年基本法希望在法律當中能夠更明確的來為青年他到底是誰呢什麼樣的年齡進行定義而我們認為青年的工作以及青年的權益這些內容範圍包括了哪些那未來我們希望政府要用什麼樣的"},{"start":142.093,"end":163.969,"text":"這個行政的機制來進行推動我自己的版本總共有22個條文裡面的包括定義的範圍我希望年齡層我們可以從15歲開始起算至35歲那這也是在我們去年的公聽會當中很多青年學子的呼籲以及盼望那我的版本當中也包括了未來我們的青年政策"},{"start":164.409,"end":193.664,"text":"的參與我們必須要給青年有嘗試的機制我們希望未來政府能夠有法源依據能夠來支持青年的團體以及法人那這個青年的工作內容包括哪些呢我們在法律當中我們寫進了包括教育運動居住國際交流身心健康創新創業等項目我們都希望是未來政府能夠照顧青年的範圍跟這個內容那特別是文化的"},{"start":194.284,"end":213.232,"text":"青年的文化參與它包括了支持青年的藝文工作者以及鼓勵青年的藝文消費那我們希望未來政府我們要推動青年主流化就必須要有它的調研及考核的機制未來我們應該要有法源依據"},{"start":215.71,"end":230.918,"text":"針對例行性的針對青年主流化政府各個部會推動的成果來辦理研究跟調查那我的提案版本說明先簡單至此那接下來有一些問題在後面的質詢當中再來跟教育部進行討論謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159177","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159177","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f001e934c055dafb5ba53b8a5773cfe3db46c869ad093de6ae70ccf99090aa3605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:09:37 - 09:10:24","影片長度":"00:00:47","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T09:09:37+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T09:10:24+08:00","duration":47,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.262218750000001,"end":47.01096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.868,"end":28.829,"text":"謝謝主席 感謝林一錦主席在我們這個會期的一開始就安排了一個如此重要的法案剛剛我特別看了一下出席的名單因為在本席提案的版本當中特別著重在有關於青年人才以及未來的青年有關於如何來培養他們的金融素養我們都知道普惠金融其實是不論"},{"start":29.85,"end":46.041,"text":"金管會或者是其他相關的我們政府財政相關單位非常重視的一個部分可是我認為在相關著重青年的議題當中有關於青年如何能夠擁有普惠金融的素養更為重要而我們在"}]}},{"id":"159179","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159179","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f2390aa6f5bdc66840aae3c1a04a00b1bb46c869ad093de6ab67a135d127549fe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"14:05:44 - 14:16:35","影片長度":"00:10:51","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【如遇加開院會本次會議取消，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T14:05:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T14:16:35+08:00","duration":651,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.177843750000001,"end":7.050968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.09221875,"end":33.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.46034375,"end":35.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.502218750000004,"end":39.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.518468750000004,"end":41.189093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.45909375,"end":43.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.95659375,"end":56.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.44096875,"end":50.250968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.250968750000006,"end":50.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.52096875,"end":50.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.61284375,"end":58.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.45221875,"end":59.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.52784375,"end":70.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.85534375,"end":78.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.78659375000001,"end":78.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.80346875000001,"end":78.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.97221875000001,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.02284375,"end":81.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.95471875000001,"end":84.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.60846875,"end":85.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.14409375000001,"end":88.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.04659375,"end":90.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.44721875,"end":91.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.03346875000001,"end":94.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.83471875000001,"end":97.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.58534375,"end":97.92284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.92284375000001,"end":97.93971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.20971875000001,"end":100.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.90971875000001,"end":113.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.97096875000001,"end":118.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.35846875000001,"end":119.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.63659375,"end":121.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.08784375,"end":131.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.52096875,"end":133.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.00159375,"end":135.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.61721875,"end":137.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.16971875000002,"end":138.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.50284375,"end":139.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.76409375,"end":150.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.72534375,"end":147.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.48409375,"end":160.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.80471875,"end":155.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.73159375,"end":166.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.45221875000001,"end":168.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.67971875,"end":169.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.28284375,"end":183.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.17096875000001,"end":190.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.65096875,"end":191.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.35534375,"end":194.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.81909375,"end":196.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.75534375,"end":201.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.92346875,"end":203.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.91471875000002,"end":214.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.64034375,"end":204.67409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.67409375000003,"end":206.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.97284375,"end":210.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.60909375,"end":216.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.27971875,"end":218.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.25846875000002,"end":219.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.91221875000002,"end":220.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.27909375000002,"end":222.79784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.28721875000002,"end":224.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.59471875000003,"end":228.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.99096875,"end":229.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.98659375000003,"end":233.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.69471875000002,"end":236.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.65221875,"end":239.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.82471875000002,"end":241.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.59221875000003,"end":243.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.00971875000002,"end":245.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.60409375,"end":248.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.62909375,"end":250.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.18159375000002,"end":258.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.64971875,"end":253.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.25221875,"end":261.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.18846875,"end":262.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.09096875,"end":265.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.87971875,"end":273.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.99659375000005,"end":274.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.12284375,"end":282.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.97409375,"end":283.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.23971875,"end":285.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.36159375,"end":289.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.63534375,"end":293.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.48721875,"end":298.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.65096875,"end":299.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.49034375,"end":302.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.59534375000004,"end":307.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.25284375,"end":309.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.82221875000005,"end":314.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.34034375000005,"end":317.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.97284375000004,"end":322.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.30534375,"end":325.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.24596875000003,"end":328.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.01346875,"end":335.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.09346875,"end":329.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.60784375000003,"end":332.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.35846875000004,"end":335.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.55659375000005,"end":336.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.02909375,"end":339.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.73721875,"end":360.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.05346875000004,"end":342.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.29159375,"end":358.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.77659375,"end":365.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.08409375,"end":364.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.17221875,"end":375.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.47596875000005,"end":366.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.09596875,"end":368.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.02721875000003,"end":378.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.26284375,"end":380.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.84909375,"end":381.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.84471875,"end":382.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.73471875,"end":385.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.11409375000005,"end":395.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.49784375,"end":388.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.96596875,"end":389.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.41284375000004,"end":391.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.49221875,"end":403.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.40659375,"end":406.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.83659375,"end":415.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.05471875,"end":474.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.89346875,"end":480.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.68159375000005,"end":484.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.74409375000005,"end":496.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.71284375000005,"end":498.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.54784375,"end":508.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.76159375000003,"end":511.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.60909375,"end":512.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.99284375,"end":518.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.9709687500001,"end":520.8272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.16471875,"end":529.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.43346875,"end":530.7665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.3234687500001,"end":538.6303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.11971875,"end":541.4484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.85346875,"end":544.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.09346875,"end":549.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.4809687500001,"end":553.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.1384687500001,"end":568.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.41034375,"end":598.5872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.40034375,"end":580.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.2265937500001,"end":584.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.22846875,"end":608.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.5434687500001,"end":618.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.7022187499999,"end":620.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.7947187500001,"end":623.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.0178437500001,"end":649.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.43221875,"end":645.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.73596875,"end":645.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.40221875,"end":650.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.91659375,"end":650.96721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.465,"end":6.779,"text":"謝謝主席 主席我請一下邱部長"},{"start":13.143,"end":33.834,"text":"委員好 部長好 部長我剛好就有幸聽到劉建國委員的質詢您在答覆的時候有關分級醫療的轉整的部分由上級往下級轉"},{"start":36.156,"end":42.726,"text":"你剛好舉到了台大轉中心那本席剛好在"},{"start":44.028,"end":68.155,"text":"前兩個禮拜有一個服務案件就是很典型就是台大轉中心那我現在就直接跟部長探討一下病患家屬的感受我大概不止一次在這個執行台上講過就是要落實分級醫療必須要每一個每一層的層級"},{"start":70.996,"end":93.963,"text":"負擔有他應該要有的醫療責任對不對配置人力跟種種是這樣子就是去台大急診那必須要住院還蠻急還蠻嚴重的可是台大就是沒有病床後來就說服了"},{"start":95.542,"end":119.378,"text":"病患家屬就轉到中心轉到中心以後當然就有病床有病床是可以安心治療的第一步我想應該是這樣子 對病患也好對病患家屬也好 是安心治療的第一步可是他大概在住院的第三天就有跟我講 他覺得"},{"start":120.657,"end":136.684,"text":"他覺得我不敢評斷,這個是家屬的感受,他覺得在中心的各項檢查好像不如台大那麼嚴謹"},{"start":142.867,"end":159.039,"text":"我講是病患家屬的感受並不是指控中心醫院這個我必須要很明確的講我想中心醫院的醫療品質也非常高所以我才說這是家屬的感受家屬為什麼會有這個感受"},{"start":160.856,"end":183.041,"text":"其實從這裡就可以看出來,由上轉下有多困難因為台灣一般的民眾,我人已經到醫學中心了,我就不願意到區域醫院到區域醫院了,你說要轉第七醫院,他也會有抗拒"},{"start":185.162,"end":200.722,"text":"這個是一件很困難的事情所以劉建國委員剛剛的數據10比1我個人是覺得其實已經算接受上轉下的通常"},{"start":202.04,"end":227.863,"text":"出於無奈的比較多啦 應該這麼講要不然應該很難啦 對不對所以分級醫療的部分我還是這樣子講那另外還有一個問題就是上轉下 現在我的看法 我的觀察連澎湖兩家醫院都有降載的情形就是病床降載的情形"},{"start":229.065,"end":248.175,"text":"所以也不見得上要轉下就有得轉因為病床降載也好 關床也好是一個全面性的問題並不限於哪一層級的醫院院長我這樣子講 對不對"},{"start":251.206,"end":272.562,"text":"我這樣講所以人力才是問題那我們今天講急重症我還是要講一下就是二月底的時候台灣急診醫學會就已經有警示今年的急診的用篩大概前所未有的嚴重"},{"start":276.229,"end":302.682,"text":"其實這個問題產生其實會引發很多後續的問題所以衛福部的新聞稿曾經指出說衛福部在春節的年後就已經發現醫院有擁塞的問題也開了四次會可是二月底"},{"start":303.615,"end":314.43,"text":"台灣醫學會還發出警訊 到底為什麼你們開會在前嘛 那他們警示在後問題也一直存在嘛"},{"start":315.55,"end":338.54,"text":"部長回答或市長回答就可以因為我先瞭解順序一下啦那個第一次開會是2月3號那急診醫學會是第一次會議是2月8號2月8號2月8號對然後第二次2月13那急診是是2月底發出的警示2月底發出的警示2月底台花對那其實這中間我跟急診醫學會的理事長"},{"start":340.782,"end":367.338,"text":"不曉得互動多少次了啦那急診醫學會站在關心國家的整個體制畫出的我們真的我完全他畫了以後我們隔天還是還是在一起啊所以我會尊重說每一個專業團體站在國家的立場沒有我覺得急診醫學會呢我們就是在解決問題這樣子也是出於善意我覺得他們是出自於善意想要幫"},{"start":370.62,"end":389.266,"text":"呼籲大家共同來關心這個問題那大家來解決這樣子我現在問的就是說為什麼我們的作為會慢半拍啦我現在問的是因為你們開會其實開很早嘛就表示你們有問題意識嘛部長你懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":396.953,"end":414.779,"text":"對 因為前三次當然是有請林靜儀次長主持那他可能要蒐集第一次的意見 他提出看怎麼做那第二次可能在領導 可能那個劉市長都有參與 他解釋一下"},{"start":415.419,"end":430.229,"text":"我補充一下其實急診醫學會會提出這個它的重點在於大家都一直在講急診優篩其實是醫院優篩所以我們前面開幾次會的部分的話其實是第一個院內先處理嘛然後那"},{"start":430.689,"end":450.095,"text":"那個急診醫學會覺得是說這必須要top down下來再來呼籲所以他們決定是說用這樣的方式的話其實應該是全院一起來協助因為不是只有急診的問題包括了人力啊這些其實才是產生這次在因應這一塊的時候他們覺得長期來的消化這個急診"},{"start":451.275,"end":474.483,"text":"這一次事件由春節這樣子延伸過來再加上那個傳染病的這一塊的人數然後之後又可能會因為春節之後恢復正常了門診的病人又要大門診的病人schedule的病人又要進來了那原本給急診的這條綠色通道就會被關他們擔心這個所以才會在2月22號的時候提出這樣的聲明以上"},{"start":475.143,"end":498.329,"text":"對啦 我其實並不是要跟你們討論台灣急診協會為什麼發啦我直接跟部長和市長說明好了啦我覺得假如人力不做增補隨時會用篩啦"},{"start":501.638,"end":529.673,"text":"因為台灣的健保這麼可貴就醫的可侵性這麼高造成了很多後續的問題啦博君你有沒有聽到我的意思我就是覺得這個不只是今年啦我相信而且根據我這裡的資料是急診專科住院醫生的招生率是"},{"start":531.434,"end":546.541,"text":"是低到讓我們覺得有點恐怖因為急診專科它本身就是一個必須要長期生活在高度壓力緊張的環境的一個工作"},{"start":548.262,"end":567.174,"text":"就在醫生的範圍裡面他算是比起其他的醫生他可能生活的壓力更大工作的壓力更大那我們假如說沒有辦法招足一定的人力我也知道健保署很"},{"start":569.448,"end":595.694,"text":"很有心要解決問題啦所以我們好像又撥了42億要來增加集中症的給付然後提高急診護理師的待遇不過我還是要講就是說有一些事情確實可以用錢解決有一些事情沒有辦法啦這個是比較長久的問題就藉由今天這個機會跟部長"},{"start":600.556,"end":619.807,"text":"我們真的是必須要增加人力人力不增加永遠都會堵塞因為我想健保制度已經走到這裡也不可能就醫的可親信把它降低不可能啦"},{"start":621.028,"end":645.469,"text":"假如不可能的話就只能增加人力設備的投資是比較快而且比較小事人力的培育比較困難不管是醫生護理師我覺得有很多不是待遇的問題的好不好我們有一些其他的問題我們就下一次有機會再做探討"}]}},{"id":"159181","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159181","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770ff92b5fb2c2c63ca12f58198bcf8270c188825f5f1b5925b9e766b101dd82558b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:03:32 - 13:12:02","影片長度":"00:08:30","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T13:03:32+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T13:12:02+08:00","duration":510,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.168468750000002,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.480343750000003,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.62721875,"end":19.504718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.80846875,"end":68.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.34096875,"end":70.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.00721875,"end":73.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.06159375,"end":97.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.65034375,"end":86.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.70096875,"end":87.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.96659375,"end":88.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.62471875,"end":88.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.77659375,"end":88.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.79346875,"end":89.55284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.55284375000001,"end":89.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.78784375000001,"end":112.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.26221875,"end":118.57784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.15221875,"end":115.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.18596875,"end":115.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.57409375,"end":115.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.21096875,"end":117.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.24471875,"end":117.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.73409375000001,"end":117.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.52721875,"end":118.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.54409375,"end":118.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.57784375000001,"end":118.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.81409375000001,"end":124.29846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.50096875000001,"end":125.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.17159375000001,"end":133.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.80346875,"end":169.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.26284375,"end":138.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.86846875,"end":149.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.03721875000002,"end":149.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.05409375000002,"end":150.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.39534375000002,"end":156.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.69409375,"end":161.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.81034375000002,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.31596875000002,"end":179.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.63159375,"end":187.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.96784375000001,"end":201.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.02471875,"end":204.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.52221875,"end":253.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.25284375,"end":273.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.66971875,"end":260.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.42284375,"end":282.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.57471875000005,"end":273.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.54471875,"end":277.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.75471875,"end":283.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.29034375000003,"end":293.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.45409375,"end":289.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.60534375000003,"end":306.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.71784375000004,"end":303.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.41346875,"end":313.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.05784375,"end":322.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":320.55471875,"end":350.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.86159375,"end":328.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.47721875,"end":331.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.29971875,"end":334.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.05346875000004,"end":342.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.20096875,"end":344.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.07409375000003,"end":345.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.26346875,"end":352.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":350.77784375000005,"end":352.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":352.66784375000003,"end":360.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.32159375000003,"end":356.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.91971875,"end":360.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.97034375000004,"end":364.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.34159375,"end":362.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.22721875,"end":364.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.69971875000005,"end":377.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.33909375,"end":394.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":395.39534375000005,"end":399.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.49596875000003,"end":399.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.69846875,"end":399.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":399.69846875,"end":400.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":400.74471875,"end":405.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.06471875000005,"end":410.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":410.59971875,"end":418.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.97409375,"end":418.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.32409375000003,"end":420.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.34096875,"end":420.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.38284375,"end":427.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":422.19284375,"end":423.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.29346875000005,"end":427.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":427.13721875000005,"end":428.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.03159375,"end":429.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.12846875,"end":429.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.55034375,"end":429.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.42784375,"end":448.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.95909375,"end":433.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.97346875000005,"end":449.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.90159375,"end":454.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":453.98534375,"end":463.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.20346875,"end":468.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":465.52784375000005,"end":465.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":467.78909375,"end":498.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.68346875000003,"end":469.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.91096875000005,"end":471.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.41159375,"end":481.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.89596875,"end":489.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.30409375000005,"end":496.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.71284375000005,"end":497.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":499.10909375000006,"end":504.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":504.79596875000004,"end":509.97659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.472,"end":14.495,"text":"我馬上先請內政部次長董事長有請委員好這樣 本來以為部長會來這個次長我不知道你是不是主管這個業務但是不是的話也請你反映一下因為我們都知道地政司有一個業務叫地級異動即時通是這個業務當時前部長林佑昌他拿這個東西拿來推廣 宣傳"},{"start":39.455,"end":57.161,"text":"就是說因為有這個業務的關係所以我們主柵很多嘛有一些譬如說有一些獨居老人他可能被其他人偽造遺囑然後房產就被過戶了那後來就是因為有這個吉時通的業務那因為吉時通你必須要登錄本人或者是朋友的"},{"start":57.881,"end":77.63,"text":"的資料所以只要有任何的地級的異動甚至於從掛件開始相關的人等就可以收到簡訊那如果他這是一個詐騙案的話很快就就可以提高警覺把這個問題把它解決阻詐成功那我也列了一些這個即時通阻詐的成功案例包括"},{"start":78.47,"end":106.938,"text":"怎麼有一個地面師地面師的騙局啊然後一些很多老翁的騙局都是靠這個地級異動即時通來阻詐所以我們是很支持這個東西但是我們不曉得說現在內政部有沒有在推動這個地級異動即時通因為昨天我們辦公室詢問地政司好像也不太知道說到目前為止有多少人申請那我們現在得到的數據是網路上查的是比較舊的他是說"},{"start":108.058,"end":112.349,"text":"到112年9月為止是15萬人那請問一下次長你有最新的數據嗎"},{"start":113.665,"end":135.911,"text":"我們來瞭解一下我想申請的人數是很多啦那也跟委員報告說那個相關的主詐的狀況非常感謝委員這邊列出來其實我們主詐的金額也都非常的高因為這些不動產的案件他的詐騙金額其實都很高那一個案件動輒就是千萬甚至上億對這我都知道我現在是問說第一個你們有沒有在推廣這個東西因為你們連那個"},{"start":138.432,"end":166.602,"text":"使用的人數都沒有的話代表說你並沒有把人數成長當作一個KPI嘛所以你就不會推廣嘛因為你一定是定一個目標去推廣才會達到那個目標嘛所以我希望說內政部既然這個東西很好那系統內政部也先預算建置了把他推廣出去啦我相信很多人可能都不知道這件事情都不知道說對 可能後續再推廣一下第二個來也請國土署署長一起我來問一下那個租屋補助的"},{"start":167.763,"end":184.899,"text":"問題首先一個問題是我們那邊里長反映的要反映說因為國土署有擴大租金補貼專案買個300億的是有把一些無房屋稅籍的未保存的登記建築物也有納入房屋補助的範圍但是因為"},{"start":188.035,"end":203.02,"text":"他有一些比如說是頂樓加蓋或什麼之類的所以要申請租屋補貼的人他要去提供一個竊結書證明有居住的事實然後相關的辦法裡面也提到說如果本人沒辦法提供的話得請村里長"},{"start":205.221,"end":223.643,"text":"來開這個里長的證明那在那邊在我們那邊就有一些里長反應就是說他怎麼知道這個人到底有沒有居住事實里長雖然常常在里長裡內活動可是里長的工作也很繁忙如果還要內政部還要把這個業務交給里長叫他每天去看說有沒有住"},{"start":224.264,"end":252.863,"text":"其實對他們來說是一個很大的負擔所以有一再反應啦一再反應那當然內政部也有講說沒有那是德啦那是德啦所以里長也可以不用理他可是大家知道里長他服務里民絕對不會絕對不會說因為是德所以他就跟那個找他幫忙的人說你自己開就好那這個里長一定會被罵所以這其實是給里長一個壓力所以是不是可以從這個辦法裡面直接就修掉就好嘛本人直接竊竊就好啦為什麼一定要叫里長來開證明呢"},{"start":254.824,"end":280.721,"text":"感謝委員其實的確有一些地方政府都有來反映這個因為我們當時是希望里長不是證明這個有沒有住這裡而是證明這個房屋地址在不在房屋地址在不在那有些里長現在的困擾是這樣因為有些房東不太不太希望人家知道他到底有沒有租所以他可能一排房屋登記好幾個門號但是他外面用一個大門鐵門把它鎖起來"},{"start":282.842,"end":292.619,"text":"然後他要去拜託他讓他進去他不讓他進去所以現在里長的困擾我知道收到的時候里長的困擾你遇到房東不讓你進去他也不曉得怎麼辦"},{"start":293.703,"end":312.335,"text":"那所以這一點其實我們都有定期在跟地方政府檢討那目前新北台中大概都有提出這個問題那你們要怎麼解決那我們現在就是第一個當然這個德齁因為部分地方政府也是覺得因為里長的確可以做這件事啦尤其大概是非六都都會認為里長沒有問題"},{"start":314.496,"end":341.324,"text":"所以這個部分我們可能會在這個責任上會盡量再把里長的角色再降低不要讓他承擔太多責任不是里長會覺得說你就算白紙黑字寫的里長沒有責任但是里長還是擔心嘛其實我覺得根本知道應該你就把這個收掉就好了嘛因為里長在市長的行動治理也都有提出這個方案但是大家的講法都卡在內政部啦"},{"start":341.764,"end":358.983,"text":"所以其實內政部修掉就什麼事情都沒有了而且剛剛署長也講得很好啊你都了解里長的困境啊對啦 最大問題是遇到房東不願意讓他進去他又不知道怎麼辦自愛難行行政機關最喜歡講的自愛難行所以就把這個修掉好不好 你看"},{"start":359.423,"end":376.325,"text":"看看是不是在一個月內啦我們在努力 一個月內把它修另外一個是這個年輕人關注的也是租屋補租的問題有一個案例他是之前申請都OK但後來發現說不行因為他租的地方是商辦"},{"start":377.606,"end":394.593,"text":"但是這個然後就被追回但是我覺得這個衍生出一個問題是實際上有些人他們去租房子他不太清楚那個地方到底是不是商辦還是什麼工業區還是什麼東西他就覺得那就是租屋所以他就住了住了一段時間一開始申請結果住了半年之後被追回"},{"start":395.473,"end":420.54,"text":"所以在網路上面很多年輕人都抱怨連連那這個我不知道國土署有沒有針對類似的案例有提出一些檢討改進應該這麼說啦因為我們後來其實在這個稅籍的部分你看你看那個醒吾科技大學學生說之前也看過好多通知繳回文章也有看到說是廠房當靠房租房客真的很衰小"},{"start":421.894,"end":442.714,"text":"這個部分其實是涉及到所以讓年輕人很這其實是稅籍的問題但是房客不曉得嘛現在問題是房客不曉得我們後來有做一些放寬那當然現在可能就是商辦跟廠辦的部分因為這個問題比較嚴重因為違章它本身是只有單純稅籍的問題我們後來違章的部分也都先放寬"},{"start":443.615,"end":468.07,"text":"但是廠辦跟商辦他涉及到就另外稅的問題那這個部分我就必須要找那個財政部這邊還要再溝通因為對他來講這是不同稅級的問題但是租屋補貼的用意是希望減輕年輕人負擔可是你現在把廠辦商辦排除的原因是因為他的稅級資料因為稅級是因為涉及到房東房東本身能不能作為這個公益出租人的條件我知道"},{"start":468.49,"end":489.584,"text":"但那個應該跟我們當初租屋補貼的用意不符啦我們用意應該是要減輕年輕人的負擔所以不要因為說各單位的行政規定可能有一些矛盾或什麼之類我覺得這個是可以解決的問題所以是不是可以請國度署再研議一下把比如說商辦或者是廠辦的問題納入服務補助好不好我聽兩個問題其實再請國度署好不好提供一個看是什麼改善的報告給我們好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":500.594,"end":509.41,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員我覺得要講可能是事務所跟工業宅這一部分我是覺得該課稅就課稅但是如果影響到房客是不太好這個請內政部多費心"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1297,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時3分）麻煩先請內政部次長。"],["主席：董次長有請。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：次長好。本來以為部長會來，我不知道你是不是主管這個業務，如果不是的話也請你反映一下。我們都知道地政司有個業務叫「地籍異動即時通」，當時前部長林右昌拿這個東西來推廣宣傳，就說因為有這個業務的關係，所以我們阻詐很多，譬如說有一些獨居老人被其他人偽造遺囑，然後房產就被過戶了。後來就是因為有這個即時通的業務，因為即時通你必須要登錄本人或者是朋友的資料，所以只要有任何地籍的異動，甚至於從掛件開始，相關的人就可以收到簡訊，如果它是一個詐騙案的話，很快就可以提高警覺，把這個問題解決，阻詐成功。","我也列了一些這個即時通阻詐的成功案例，包括有一個地面師的騙局，有很多老翁的騙局都是靠地籍異動即時通來阻詐，所以……"],["董次長建宏：感謝委員的支持。"],["葉委員元之：我們是很支持這個東西，但是我們不曉得現在內政部有沒有在推動這個地籍異動即時通？"],["董次長建宏：有。"],["葉委員元之：昨天我們辦公室詢問地政司，好像也不太知道到目前為止有多少人申請，我們現在得到的數據是網路上查的，是比較舊的，到112年9月為止是15萬人，請問一下次長，你有最新的數據嗎？"],["董次長建宏：我們來了解一下，我想申請的人數是很多……"],["葉委員元之：是多少？"],["董次長建宏：那也跟委員報告相關的阻詐的狀況，非常感謝委員這邊列出來，其實我們阻詐的金額也都非常的高，因為這些不動產的案件，它的詐騙金額其實都很高，一個案件動輒就千萬甚至上億。"],["葉委員元之：對，這個我都知道，我現在是問你們有沒有在推廣這個東西？"],["董次長建宏：有……"],["葉委員元之：如果你們連使用的人數都沒有的話，代表你並沒有把人數成長當作一個KPI，所以你就不會推廣。因為你一定是定一個目標去推廣，你才會達到那個目標……"],["董次長建宏：好，我們會來……"],["葉委員元之：既然這個東西很好，我希望內政部……"],["董次長建宏：我們回去把這些資料再送給委員……"],["葉委員元之：這套系統內政部也編列預算建置了，那就把它推廣出去。"],["董次長建宏：是、是……"],["葉委員元之：我相信很多人可能都不知道這件事情，都不知道……"],["董次長建宏：我們後續……"],["葉委員元之：可能後續再推廣一下。","第二個請教國土署署長，我來問一下租屋補助的問題。首先一個問題是我們那邊里長反映的，里長反映說國土署的300億擴大租金補貼專案，有把一些無房屋稅籍的、未保存的登記建築物也有納入房屋補助的範圍，但是因為有些比如說頂樓加蓋或什麼之類的，所以要申請租屋補貼的人，他要提供切結書證明有居住的事實，然後相關辦法裡面也提到如果本人沒辦法提供的話，得請村里長開立里長證明。","在我們那邊就有一些里長反映，他怎麼知道這個人到底有沒有居住事實？里長雖然常常在里內活動，可是里長的工作也很繁忙，如果內政部還要把這個業務交給里長，叫他每天去看有沒有居住事實，其實對他們來說是一個很大的負擔，所以有里長一再反映。當然內政部也說因為那是「得」，所以里長可以不用理它。可是大家知道里長服務里民絕對不會說因為是「得」，所以他就跟找他幫忙的人說你自己開就好，那這個里長一定會被罵，所以這其實是給里長一個壓力。是不是可以從這個辦法裡面直接修掉就好？本人直接切結就好了，為什麼一定要叫里長開證明？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，其實的確有一些地方政府都有來反映這個議題，其實我們當時並不是希望里長證明人有沒有住這裡，而是證明這個房屋地址在不在。有些里長現在的困擾是這樣，因為有些房東不太希望人家知道他到底有沒有租，所以他可能有一排房屋登記好幾個門號，但是他外面用一個大門、鐵門把它鎖起來，然後里長要去拜託房東讓他進去，但房東不讓里長進去，這是現在里長的困擾，遇到房東不讓他進去，他也不曉得怎麼辦。針對這一點其實我們都有定期跟地方政府檢討，目前新北、台中大概都有提出這個問題。"],["葉委員元之：那你們要怎麼解決？"],["吳署長欣修：針對這個「得」，因為部分地方政府也覺得里長的確可以做這件事，尤其是非六都都會認為里長沒有問題，所以這個部分我們可能會在責任上儘量再把里長的角色降低，不要讓他承擔太多責任……"],["葉委員元之：里長會覺得就算白紙黑字寫著里長沒有責任，但是里長還是擔心嘛！其實我覺得根本之道應該把這個規定修掉就好了嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：我知道，因為怕其他非六都……"],["葉委員元之：對，因為里長在市長行動治理座談會也都有提出這個方案，但是大家的講法都卡在內政部啦！"],["吳署長欣修：我知道，這個我們會來討論看……"],["葉委員元之：所以其實內政部把這個規定修掉就什麼事情都沒了，而且剛剛署長也講得很好，你都了解里長的困境啊！"],["吳署長欣修：對，但其實最大問題是遇到房東不願意讓他進去，他就不知道怎麼辦。"],["葉委員元之：窒礙難行、窒礙難行，行政機關最喜歡講的窒礙難行，所以就把這個修掉啦，好不好？你看看是不是在一個月內啦！"],["吳署長欣修：我們再努力找各地方政府開會，看是不是一起來處理這個問題。"],["葉委員元之：一個月內把它修掉。","另外一個是年輕人關注的，也是租屋補助的問題，有一個案例是之前申請都OK，但後來發現不行，因為他住的地方是商辦，然後就被追回。我覺得這個衍生出一個問題，實際上有些人他們去租房子，他不太清楚那個地方到底是不是商辦或是工業區，還是什麼東西，他就覺得就是租屋啊，所以他就住了，住了一段時間一開始申請，結果住了半年之後被追回，所以在網路上面很多年輕人都抱怨連連。我不知道國土署有沒有針對類似的案例提出一些檢討改進。"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，因為我們後來其實在稅籍的部分……"],["葉委員元之：你看醒吾科技大學的學生說之前也看過好多通知繳回的文章，也有看到說是廠房當套房租，房客真的很「雖小」。"],["吳署長欣修：這個部分其實是涉及到……"],["葉委員元之：我們不能讓年輕人……"],["吳署長欣修：這其實是稅籍的問題……"],["葉委員元之：但是房客不曉得嘛，現在問題是房客不曉得嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們後來有做一些放寬，當然現在可能就是商辦跟廠辦的部分，這個問題比較嚴重，因為違章它本身是只有單純稅籍的問題，我們後來針對違章的部分也都先放寬。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，對。"],["吳署長欣修：但是廠辦跟商辦另外涉及其他稅的問題，這個部分我們必須要找財政部再溝通，因為對它來講這是不同稅籍的問題。"],["葉委員元之：租屋補貼的用意是希望減輕年輕人的負擔，可是你現在把廠辦、商辦排除的原因是因為它的稅籍資料……"],["吳署長欣修：因為稅籍是涉及到房東本身能不能作為公益出租人的條件。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，但那個應該跟我們當初租屋補貼的用意不符，我們的用意應該是要減輕年輕人的負擔，所以不要因為各單位的行政規定可能有一些矛盾或什麼之類，我覺得這個是可以解決的問題。所以是不是可以請國土署再研議一下，把商辦或者是廠辦的問題納入租屋補助，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：這個我們會再找財政部……"],["葉委員元之：剛剛我提的兩個問題，再請國土署提供一個怎麼改善的報告給我們，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：我們看看有什麼解決的方案。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。我覺得可能是事務所跟工業宅的部分，我覺得該課稅就課稅，但如果影響到房客是不太好，這部分請內政部多費心。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","丁學忠委員、丁學忠委員、丁學忠委員不在。","賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員不在。","登記發言的委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員高金素梅、丁學忠、翁曉玲所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159180","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159180","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f9421d94d6e5493532f58198bcf8270c188825f5f1b5925b9da6e6bdae5930a855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:03:38 - 13:11:56","影片長度":"00:08:18","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T13:03:38+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T13:11:56+08:00","duration":498,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.844093750000001,"end":9.750968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.172843750000002,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.31971875,"end":16.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.48409375,"end":63.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.13909375,"end":64.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.99971875,"end":67.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.68284375,"end":70.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.77096875000001,"end":74.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.05721875,"end":94.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.32596875,"end":86.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.46346875,"end":104.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.53784375000001,"end":109.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.93784375000001,"end":120.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.84471875000001,"end":112.26659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.88659375,"end":114.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.21971875000001,"end":115.23659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.50659375000001,"end":115.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.15971875000001,"end":122.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.81346875000001,"end":130.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.47909375,"end":166.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.95534375,"end":134.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.54409375,"end":146.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.07096875000002,"end":149.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.08784375000002,"end":153.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.36971875,"end":158.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.45221875000001,"end":169.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.97471875000002,"end":175.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.29034375,"end":183.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.66034375,"end":187.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.88346875000002,"end":198.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.71721875,"end":200.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.18096875,"end":250.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.92846875,"end":269.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.32846875,"end":256.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.34534375000004,"end":256.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.08159375,"end":278.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.25034375,"end":270.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.18659375000004,"end":273.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.22034375000004,"end":273.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.41346875,"end":280.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.94909375000003,"end":289.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.11284375,"end":286.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.26409375000003,"end":302.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.39346875,"end":300.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.00096875,"end":300.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.08909375,"end":310.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.73346875000004,"end":318.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.29784375,"end":346.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.52034375,"end":324.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.15284375000005,"end":328.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.97534375000004,"end":331.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.69534375,"end":339.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.91034375000004,"end":341.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.69909375000003,"end":342.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.92221875,"end":349.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.41971875,"end":348.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.34346875,"end":357.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.99721875,"end":352.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.57846875,"end":361.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.01721875000004,"end":359.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.91971875,"end":361.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.39221875000004,"end":373.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.03159375,"end":391.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.07096875,"end":396.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.22221875,"end":396.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.34034375000005,"end":397.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.37409375000004,"end":396.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.42034375000003,"end":401.72346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.72346875000005,"end":407.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.19096875,"end":415.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.56534375,"end":414.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.98284375000003,"end":417.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.03346875000005,"end":417.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.05846875000003,"end":423.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.85159375,"end":420.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.96909375,"end":425.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.02784375000005,"end":426.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.58471875000004,"end":426.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.10346875000005,"end":446.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.58409375,"end":429.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.60096875000005,"end":429.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.68534375,"end":429.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.52659375,"end":451.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.66096875000005,"end":460.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.87909375000004,"end":465.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.16971875,"end":462.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.35534375000003,"end":462.40596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.44784375,"end":494.92409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.15659375,"end":465.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.34221875000003,"end":465.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.56971875000005,"end":468.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.08721875000003,"end":477.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.55471875,"end":482.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.57159375000003,"end":485.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.99659375000005,"end":492.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.96659375,"end":494.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.78471875,"end":499.09221875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.144,"end":11.166,"text":"我馬上先請內政部次長董事長有請委員好這樣 本來以為部長會來這個次長我不知道你是不是主管這個業務但是不是的話也請你反映一下因為我們都知道地政司有一個業務叫地級異動即時通是這個業務當時前部長林佑昌他拿這個東西拿來推廣 宣傳"},{"start":35.78,"end":53.854,"text":"就是說這個業務因為有這個業務的關係所以我們主柵很多嘛有一些譬如說有一些獨居老人他可能被其他人偽造遺族然後房產就被過戶了那後來就是因為有這個吉時通的業務那因為吉時通你必須要登錄本人或者是朋友的"},{"start":54.554,"end":74.3,"text":"的資料所以只要有任何的地級的異動甚至於從掛件開始相關的人等就可以收到簡訊那如果他這是一個詐騙案的話很快就就可以提高警覺把這個問題把它解決阻詐成功那我也列了一些這個即時通阻詐的成功案例包括"},{"start":75.14,"end":103.613,"text":"怎麼有一個地面師地面師的騙局啊以前很多老翁的騙局都是靠這個地級異動即時通來阻擋所以我們很支持這個東西但是我們不曉得說現在內政部有沒有在推動這個地級異動即時通因為昨天我們辦公室詢問地政司好像也不太知道說到目前為止有多少人申請那我們現在得到的數據是網路上查的是比較舊的他是說"},{"start":104.733,"end":109.022,"text":"到112年9月為止是15萬人那請問一下次長你有最新的數據嗎"},{"start":110.337,"end":132.589,"text":"我們來了解一下我想申請的人數是很多啦那也跟委員報告說那個相關的主詐的狀況非常感謝委員這邊列出來其實我們主詐的金額也都非常的高因為這些不動產的案件他的詐騙金額其實都很高那一個案件動輒就是千萬甚至上億對這我都知道我現在是問說第一個你們有沒有在推廣這個東西因為你們連那個"},{"start":135.11,"end":157.309,"text":"使用的人數都沒有的話代表說你並沒有把人數成長當作一個KPI嘛所以你就不會推廣嘛因為你一定是定一個目標去推廣才會達到那個目標所以我希望說內政部既然這個東西很好那系統內政部也先預算建置了把推廣出去啦我相信很多人可能都不知道這件事情都不知道說我們會後續再推廣一下第二個來也請國土署署長一起我來問一下那個租屋補助的"},{"start":164.435,"end":181.575,"text":"問題首先一個問題是我們那邊里長反映的要反映說因為國土署有擴大租金補貼專案買個300億的是有把一些無房屋稅籍的未保存的登記建築物也有納入房屋補助的範圍但是因為"},{"start":184.707,"end":199.692,"text":"他有一些比如說是頂樓加蓋或什麼之類的所以要申請租屋補貼的人他要去提供一個竊結書證明有居住的事實然後相關的辦法裡面也提到說如果本人沒辦法提供的話得請村里長"},{"start":201.893,"end":220.311,"text":"來開這個里長的證明那在那邊在我們那邊就有一些里長反應就是說他怎麼知道這個人到底有沒有居住事實里長雖然常常在里長裡內活動可是里長的工作也很繁忙如果還要內政部還要把這個業務交給里長叫他每天去看說有沒有住"},{"start":220.931,"end":249.53,"text":"其實對他們來說是一個很大的負擔所以有一再反應啦一再反應那當然內政部也有講說沒有那是德啦那是德啦所以里長也可以不用理他可是大家知道里長他服務里民絕對不會絕對不會說因為是德所以他就跟那個找他幫忙的人說你自己開就好那這個里長一定會被罵所以這其實是給里長一個壓力所以是不是可以從這個辦法裡面直接就修掉就好嘛本人直接竊竊就好啦為什麼一定要叫里長來開證明呢"},{"start":251.492,"end":277.392,"text":"感謝委員其實的確有一些地方政府都有來反映這個因為我們當時是希望里長不是證明這個有沒有住這裡而是證明這個房屋地址在不在房屋地址在不在那有些里長現在的困擾是這樣因為有些房東不太不太希望人家知道他到底有沒有租所以他可能一排房屋登記好幾個門號但是他外面用一個大門鐵門把它鎖起來"},{"start":279.514,"end":289.294,"text":"然後他要去拜託他讓他進去他不讓他進去所以現在里長的困擾我知道收到的時候里長的困擾你遇到房東不讓你進去他也不曉得怎麼辦"},{"start":290.373,"end":309.007,"text":"那所以這一點其實我們都有定期在跟地方政府檢討那目前新北台中大概都有提出這個問題那你們要怎麼解決那我們現在就是第一個當然這個德齁因為部分地方政府也是覺得因為里長的確可以做這件事啦尤其大概是非六都都會認為里長沒有問題"},{"start":310.808,"end":337.996,"text":"那所以這個部分我們可能會在這個責任上會盡量再把里長的角色再降低不要讓他承擔太多責任不是里長會覺得說你就算白紙黑字寫的里長沒有責任但是里長還是擔心嘛其實我覺得根本知道應該你就把這個收掉就好了嘛因為里長在市長的行動治理也都有提出這個方案但是大家的講法都卡在內政部啦"},{"start":338.436,"end":355.655,"text":"所以其實內政部修掉就什麼事情都沒有了而且剛剛署長也講得很好啊你都了解里長的困境啊對啦 最大問題是遇到房東不願意讓他進去他就不知道怎麼辦自愛難行 自愛難行行政機關最喜歡講的自愛難行所以就把這個修掉好不好 你看"},{"start":356.095,"end":372.998,"text":"看看是不是在一個月內啦我們在努力 一個月內把它修另外一個是這個年輕人關注的也是租屋補租的問題有一個案例他是之前申請都OK但後來發現說不行因為他租的地方是商辦"},{"start":374.279,"end":391.248,"text":"但是這個然後就被追回但是我覺得這個衍生出一個問題是實際上有些人他們去租房子他不太清楚那個地方到底是不是商辦還是什麼工業區還是什麼東西他就覺得那就是租屋所以他就住住了一段時間一開始申請結果住了半年之後被追回"},{"start":392.148,"end":417.218,"text":"所以在網路上面很多年輕人都抱怨連連那這個我不知道國土署有沒有針對類似的案例有提出一些檢討改進應該這麼說啦因為我們後來其實在這個稅籍的部分你看你看那個醒吾科技大學學生說之前也看過好多通知繳回文章也有看到說是廠房當靠房租房客真的很雖小"},{"start":418.569,"end":439.366,"text":"這個部分其實是涉及到 讓年輕人很這其實是稅籍的問題啦但是房客不曉得嘛 現在問題是房客不曉得我們後來有做一些放寬啦那當然現在可能就是商辦跟廠辦的部分因為這個問題比較嚴重因為違章它本身是只有單純稅籍的問題我們後來違章的部分也都先放寬"},{"start":440.287,"end":467.918,"text":"但是廠辦跟商辦他涉及到就另外稅的問題那這個部分我就必須要找那個財政部這邊還要再溝通因為對他來講這是不同稅級的問題但是租屋補貼的用意是希望減輕年輕人負擔可是你現在把廠辦商辦排除的原因是因為他的稅級資料因為稅級是因為涉及到房東房東本身能不能作為這個公益出租人的條件我知道但那個應該跟我們當租屋補貼的用意不符我們用意應該是要減輕年輕人"},{"start":470.299,"end":494.033,"text":"對所以不要因為說各單位的行政規定可能有一些矛盾或什麼之類的我覺得這個是可以解決的問題所以是不是可以請國土署再研議一下把比如商辦或者是廠辦的問題納入處理處理好不好這個我們會再跟我們會找一個對對對 剛剛講那個我聽兩個問題其實再請國土署好不好提供提供一個看是什麼我們看怎麼解決的方案來改善的報告給我們好不好好 好 謝謝謝謝葉元之委員我覺得要講可能是"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1297,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時3分）麻煩先請內政部次長。"],["主席：董次長有請。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：次長好。本來以為部長會來，我不知道你是不是主管這個業務，如果不是的話也請你反映一下。我們都知道地政司有個業務叫「地籍異動即時通」，當時前部長林右昌拿這個東西來推廣宣傳，就說因為有這個業務的關係，所以我們阻詐很多，譬如說有一些獨居老人被其他人偽造遺囑，然後房產就被過戶了。後來就是因為有這個即時通的業務，因為即時通你必須要登錄本人或者是朋友的資料，所以只要有任何地籍的異動，甚至於從掛件開始，相關的人就可以收到簡訊，如果它是一個詐騙案的話，很快就可以提高警覺，把這個問題解決，阻詐成功。","我也列了一些這個即時通阻詐的成功案例，包括有一個地面師的騙局，有很多老翁的騙局都是靠地籍異動即時通來阻詐，所以……"],["董次長建宏：感謝委員的支持。"],["葉委員元之：我們是很支持這個東西，但是我們不曉得現在內政部有沒有在推動這個地籍異動即時通？"],["董次長建宏：有。"],["葉委員元之：昨天我們辦公室詢問地政司，好像也不太知道到目前為止有多少人申請，我們現在得到的數據是網路上查的，是比較舊的，到112年9月為止是15萬人，請問一下次長，你有最新的數據嗎？"],["董次長建宏：我們來了解一下，我想申請的人數是很多……"],["葉委員元之：是多少？"],["董次長建宏：那也跟委員報告相關的阻詐的狀況，非常感謝委員這邊列出來，其實我們阻詐的金額也都非常的高，因為這些不動產的案件，它的詐騙金額其實都很高，一個案件動輒就千萬甚至上億。"],["葉委員元之：對，這個我都知道，我現在是問你們有沒有在推廣這個東西？"],["董次長建宏：有……"],["葉委員元之：如果你們連使用的人數都沒有的話，代表你並沒有把人數成長當作一個KPI，所以你就不會推廣。因為你一定是定一個目標去推廣，你才會達到那個目標……"],["董次長建宏：好，我們會來……"],["葉委員元之：既然這個東西很好，我希望內政部……"],["董次長建宏：我們回去把這些資料再送給委員……"],["葉委員元之：這套系統內政部也編列預算建置了，那就把它推廣出去。"],["董次長建宏：是、是……"],["葉委員元之：我相信很多人可能都不知道這件事情，都不知道……"],["董次長建宏：我們後續……"],["葉委員元之：可能後續再推廣一下。","第二個請教國土署署長，我來問一下租屋補助的問題。首先一個問題是我們那邊里長反映的，里長反映說國土署的300億擴大租金補貼專案，有把一些無房屋稅籍的、未保存的登記建築物也有納入房屋補助的範圍，但是因為有些比如說頂樓加蓋或什麼之類的，所以要申請租屋補貼的人，他要提供切結書證明有居住的事實，然後相關辦法裡面也提到如果本人沒辦法提供的話，得請村里長開立里長證明。","在我們那邊就有一些里長反映，他怎麼知道這個人到底有沒有居住事實？里長雖然常常在里內活動，可是里長的工作也很繁忙，如果內政部還要把這個業務交給里長，叫他每天去看有沒有居住事實，其實對他們來說是一個很大的負擔，所以有里長一再反映。當然內政部也說因為那是「得」，所以里長可以不用理它。可是大家知道里長服務里民絕對不會說因為是「得」，所以他就跟找他幫忙的人說你自己開就好，那這個里長一定會被罵，所以這其實是給里長一個壓力。是不是可以從這個辦法裡面直接修掉就好？本人直接切結就好了，為什麼一定要叫里長開證明？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，其實的確有一些地方政府都有來反映這個議題，其實我們當時並不是希望里長證明人有沒有住這裡，而是證明這個房屋地址在不在。有些里長現在的困擾是這樣，因為有些房東不太希望人家知道他到底有沒有租，所以他可能有一排房屋登記好幾個門號，但是他外面用一個大門、鐵門把它鎖起來，然後里長要去拜託房東讓他進去，但房東不讓里長進去，這是現在里長的困擾，遇到房東不讓他進去，他也不曉得怎麼辦。針對這一點其實我們都有定期跟地方政府檢討，目前新北、台中大概都有提出這個問題。"],["葉委員元之：那你們要怎麼解決？"],["吳署長欣修：針對這個「得」，因為部分地方政府也覺得里長的確可以做這件事，尤其是非六都都會認為里長沒有問題，所以這個部分我們可能會在責任上儘量再把里長的角色降低，不要讓他承擔太多責任……"],["葉委員元之：里長會覺得就算白紙黑字寫著里長沒有責任，但是里長還是擔心嘛！其實我覺得根本之道應該把這個規定修掉就好了嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：我知道，因為怕其他非六都……"],["葉委員元之：對，因為里長在市長行動治理座談會也都有提出這個方案，但是大家的講法都卡在內政部啦！"],["吳署長欣修：我知道，這個我們會來討論看……"],["葉委員元之：所以其實內政部把這個規定修掉就什麼事情都沒了，而且剛剛署長也講得很好，你都了解里長的困境啊！"],["吳署長欣修：對，但其實最大問題是遇到房東不願意讓他進去，他就不知道怎麼辦。"],["葉委員元之：窒礙難行、窒礙難行，行政機關最喜歡講的窒礙難行，所以就把這個修掉啦，好不好？你看看是不是在一個月內啦！"],["吳署長欣修：我們再努力找各地方政府開會，看是不是一起來處理這個問題。"],["葉委員元之：一個月內把它修掉。","另外一個是年輕人關注的，也是租屋補助的問題，有一個案例是之前申請都OK，但後來發現不行，因為他住的地方是商辦，然後就被追回。我覺得這個衍生出一個問題，實際上有些人他們去租房子，他不太清楚那個地方到底是不是商辦或是工業區，還是什麼東西，他就覺得就是租屋啊，所以他就住了，住了一段時間一開始申請，結果住了半年之後被追回，所以在網路上面很多年輕人都抱怨連連。我不知道國土署有沒有針對類似的案例提出一些檢討改進。"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，因為我們後來其實在稅籍的部分……"],["葉委員元之：你看醒吾科技大學的學生說之前也看過好多通知繳回的文章，也有看到說是廠房當套房租，房客真的很「雖小」。"],["吳署長欣修：這個部分其實是涉及到……"],["葉委員元之：我們不能讓年輕人……"],["吳署長欣修：這其實是稅籍的問題……"],["葉委員元之：但是房客不曉得嘛，現在問題是房客不曉得嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們後來有做一些放寬，當然現在可能就是商辦跟廠辦的部分，這個問題比較嚴重，因為違章它本身是只有單純稅籍的問題，我們後來針對違章的部分也都先放寬。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，對。"],["吳署長欣修：但是廠辦跟商辦另外涉及其他稅的問題，這個部分我們必須要找財政部再溝通，因為對它來講這是不同稅籍的問題。"],["葉委員元之：租屋補貼的用意是希望減輕年輕人的負擔，可是你現在把廠辦、商辦排除的原因是因為它的稅籍資料……"],["吳署長欣修：因為稅籍是涉及到房東本身能不能作為公益出租人的條件。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，但那個應該跟我們當初租屋補貼的用意不符，我們的用意應該是要減輕年輕人的負擔，所以不要因為各單位的行政規定可能有一些矛盾或什麼之類，我覺得這個是可以解決的問題。所以是不是可以請國土署再研議一下，把商辦或者是廠辦的問題納入租屋補助，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：這個我們會再找財政部……"],["葉委員元之：剛剛我提的兩個問題，再請國土署提供一個怎麼改善的報告給我們，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：我們看看有什麼解決的方案。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。我覺得可能是事務所跟工業宅的部分，我覺得該課稅就課稅，但如果影響到房客是不太好，這部分請內政部多費心。","下一位請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","丁學忠委員、丁學忠委員、丁學忠委員不在。","賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員不在。","登記發言的委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員高金素梅、丁學忠、翁曉玲所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159178","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159178","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fe90446092e63fc290aae3c1a04a00b1bb46c869ad093de6a6511449ee88a32a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"13:59:27 - 14:05:30","影片長度":"00:06:03","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【如遇加開院會本次會議取消，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T13:59:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T14:05:30+08:00","duration":363,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.84846875,"end":13.193468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.235343750000002,"end":15.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.25221875,"end":15.555968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.33596875,"end":19.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.06159375,"end":21.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.83346875,"end":22.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.86721875,"end":22.660343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.01471875,"end":42.353468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.189093750000005,"end":41.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.813468750000006,"end":41.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.142218750000005,"end":44.682218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.509093750000005,"end":82.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.04346875,"end":55.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.87471875,"end":82.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.73534375,"end":83.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.69721875,"end":125.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.90159375,"end":152.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.90159375000002,"end":153.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.94784375,"end":155.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.96471875,"end":153.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.58034375,"end":158.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.97659375,"end":159.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.28034375000001,"end":163.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.71846875,"end":171.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.44284375,"end":174.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.60284375,"end":175.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.54784375,"end":175.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.80096875,"end":175.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.98659375,"end":180.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.99846875,"end":184.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.16721875000002,"end":181.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.57596875000002,"end":210.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.34409375,"end":210.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.86721875,"end":229.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.18784375,"end":211.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.32846875,"end":229.53096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.39596875,"end":243.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.35221875000002,"end":239.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.30971875,"end":241.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.14909375000002,"end":260.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.36846875,"end":243.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.68409375000002,"end":248.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.13971875000001,"end":249.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.01284375000003,"end":252.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.14221875000004,"end":265.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.82909375,"end":270.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.73971875,"end":341.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.93096875000003,"end":349.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.39846875,"end":351.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.55409375000005,"end":352.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.38096875,"end":361.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.40596875,"end":355.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.07221875000005,"end":357.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.67096875000004,"end":362.97846875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.906,"end":12.46,"text":"好謝謝主席謝謝劉建國學長好那主席我請部長謝謝"},{"start":19.623,"end":40.591,"text":"好部長辛苦了今天的議題我們當然關心啦不過因為還有另外一個兒少全法修法在即兒少全法的部分有一個部分我認為是目前我們在幾次公聽會當中或者是目前衛福部給我們的資料裡面我們已經都做了研究也跟你們所知跟你們討論過我們覺得有匱乏的地方我這裡就直接跟部長討論好來下一頁"},{"start":46.096,"end":63.182,"text":"主要就是因為目前安置在安置機構裡面的兒少在2024年的數字有5000多位將近6000位而這些孩子們他不管年紀多大他都是因為原生家庭的有一些問題沒有辦法照顧這些小孩"},{"start":63.662,"end":82.379,"text":"所以這些小孩都必須要被安置在安置機構裡頭那部長應該可以想像像這樣子原生家庭有一些創傷導致這些孩子必須被放在安置機構裡頭我們可以想像他們在心理健康的資源所需要的服務量能應該比一般家庭的小孩來得多對不對 普遍上是的"},{"start":83.78,"end":111.863,"text":"那部長如果你也認同 那我要跟部長反映喔目前很多安置機構 我知道相關的法規都有規定不管是兒少福利機構或是團體家庭 所謂的團家都有規定有相關的標準也有說要給心理輔導機制那我知道你們衛福部也說有非常多機制都已經在進行了可是實務上的狀況就是可能這些機構彼此的服務品質有一些落差或者是有一些機構的所在地理位置很偏鄉很多人不要去"},{"start":112.623,"end":139.935,"text":"那他們能不能真的找到夠好的心理師也好社工師也好相關的心理健康資源進到現場服務小孩我們其實是很多擔心因為很多現場的聲音告訴我們是不足的那在很多公聽會之後呢我們在2月6號我們辦公室在2月6號發函要求衛福部在未來的兒少法修法會議專家團體諮詢會當中應該要找心理學精神醫學的專家學者來開會"},{"start":141.876,"end":151.484,"text":"討論兒少法修法的時候只要談論到安置兒少心理機構的時候我們應該要更專業的心理健康支持我們希望你們三週內給我們相關的會議規劃好 沒問題不是 部長你說沒問題"},{"start":156.628,"end":171.38,"text":"你的同仁現在要哭了 來部長來看下一張結果三個禮拜後你們給我的回應是這樣你們衛福部說不用他說已經有相關資源了 都已經ready了不需要為了這些安置機構的小孩再有什麼方案 再有什麼專家會議 他說不用不一定有他說不用 要怎麼樣"},{"start":176.143,"end":200.159,"text":"因為那個委員是專家啦我回去了解一下我覺得應該您講的有道理我們再來重新檢討因為不是只有心理醫生告訴我們也不是只有心理師告訴我們是很多安置機構的社工老師還有在裡面服務的心理師他們真的就告訴我們這幾年我們社會越來越困難越來越複雜很多被送到安置機構的小孩他們的心理創傷的問題越來越複雜"},{"start":202.481,"end":228.771,"text":"那如果有夠多專業的人進來幫忙我覺得對孩子是好事對機構裡面這些在照顧小孩的大人也是好事保重對不對對啦所以我很謝謝你們同仁給我們這些回應我也知道衛福部在很多心理健康真的已經非常非常非常認真我也知道我們花了很多錢很多資源希望協助國人整體的身心健康所以我今天沒有要質疑這個我只是要拜託部長我們在安置機構的部分"},{"start":229.531,"end":251.862,"text":"未來兒少全法修法我們把這個部分先聽聽專家的聲音不管是邀請安置機構的社工老師心理老師或是這些安置機構主持人來加上心理學精神醫學的相關專家我想這個部分是我非常重視我本身也是台大心理系的和平教授我對心理的一個重要性所以您的"},{"start":257.225,"end":275.458,"text":"您的指導我個人非常的認同部長我不敢說指導啦就拜託啦好我們為孩子爭取權益其實就是在為大人更好的工作環境爭取權益好最後一題來很快很快那另外一個比較困難的我先說我自己承認這題比較難但是我們花一些時間長一點時間來討論"},{"start":277.339,"end":306.118,"text":"我們後續在很願意跟衛福部直接召開討論會議就是這個安置機構的離開安置機構的小孩呢在兒少全法原來的條文59跟62條要求政府要追蹤輔導至少一年事實上現在也有這樣做那衛福部你們修法說要改成以後要提供家庭支持還有自立生活服務這個正向完全給予肯定也很謝謝衛福部願意陪孩子一起面對這個現實可是有一個比較大的困境就是目前我們政府提供支持服務到21歲"},{"start":307.519,"end":329.895,"text":"可是在国外他们有发现很多21岁就算已经年满21岁的小孩但是我刚刚说他来自有创伤的原生家庭他来自复杂的社区环境他可能甚至在学校的学习都没有那么有把握的情况下我们很难想象他一离开安置机构他就要自己立刻独立自主生活其实也有很多儿少有跟我们来反映这个现况"},{"start":330.515,"end":341.429,"text":"但我知道我們把21歲延伸到23或25有資源分配的問題有資源分配的困境但我們有沒有機會往這裡去想部長你覺得呢"},{"start":342.947,"end":360.207,"text":"我覺得如果專家覺得這樣子是必要的我們絕對仔細的來研議啊是是那至少我們開啟研議的討論好不好好好那這個部分我們辦公室也會持續來追蹤好今天非常謝謝部長兩個議題支持而少都給予正面的回應我們一起努力謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1481,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（13時59分）謝謝主席，謝謝劉建國學長。主席，我請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好！"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，辛苦了！"],["邱部長泰源：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：今天的議題我們當然關心，不過因為還有另外一個兒少權法修法在即，兒少權法的部分，有一個部分我認為是目前在幾次公聽會當中，或者是目前衛福部給我們的資料裡面，我們已經都做了研究，也跟你們索資，跟你們討論過，我們覺得有匱乏的地方，在這裡就直接跟部長討論。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：主要就是因為目前安置在安置機構裡面的兒少在2024年的數字有五千多位，將近6,000位，而這些孩子們不管年紀多大，他都是因為原生家庭有一些問題沒有辦法照顧這些小孩，所以這些小孩都必須要被安置在安置機構裡頭。部長應該可以想像，像這樣子原生家庭有一些創傷，導致這些孩子必須被放在安置機構裡頭，我們可以想像他們在心理健康的資源所需要的服務量能應該比一般家庭的小孩來得多，對不對？普遍上啦！"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長，如果你也認同，那我要跟部長反映，目前很多安置機構我知道相關的法規都有規定，不管是兒少福利機構或是團體家庭（團家）都有規定、有相關的標準，也有說要給心理輔導機制，我知道你們衛福部也說有非常多的機制都已經在進行了，可是實務上的狀況就是這些機構彼此的服務品質可能有一些落差，或者是有一些機構的所在地理位置很偏鄉，很多人不要去，那他們能不能真的找到夠好的心理師也好，社工師也好，對於相關的心理健康資源進到現場服務小孩，我們其實是很擔心，因為很多現場的聲音告訴我們是不足的。","在很多公聽會之後，我們辦公室在2月6日發函要求衛福部，在未來的兒少法修法會議、專家團體諮詢會當中，應該要找心理學與精神醫學的專家學者來開會，在討論兒少法修法的時候，只要談論到安置兒少心理機構的時候，應該要有更專業的心理健康支持，所以我們希望你們3週內給我們相關的會議規劃。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：不是，部長你說沒問題，你的同仁現在要哭了，來，部長，你看下一張，結果3個禮拜後你們給我們的回應是這樣，你們衛福部說不用！它說已經有相關資源了，都已經ready了，不需要為了這些安置機構的小孩再有什麼方案、再有什麼專家會議，它說不用，部長，它說不用耶！這要怎麼辦？但是你剛才說要耶！"],["邱部長泰源：因為委員是專家啦！我回去瞭解一下，我覺得應該您講得有道理，我們再來重新檢討。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，因為不是只有心理醫生告訴我們，也不是只有心理師告訴我們，是很多安置機構的社工、老師還有在裡面服務的心理師，他們真的就告訴我們這幾年社會越來越困難、越來越複雜，很多被送到安置機構的小孩，他們心理創傷的問題越來越複雜，如果有夠多專業的人進來幫忙，我覺得對孩子是好事，對機構裡面這些在照顧小孩的大人也是好事，部長，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：對啦？"],["邱部長泰源：當然。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我很謝謝你們同仁給我們這些回應，我知道衛福部在很多心理健康真的已經非常、非常、非常認真，我也知道我們花了很多錢、很多資源，希望協助國人整體的身心健康，所以我今天沒有要質疑這個，我只是要拜託部長，在安置機構的部分，未來兒少權法修法嘛！我們在這個部分先聽聽專家的聲音，不管是邀請安置機構的社工、老師、心理老師或是這些安置機構的主持人來，加上心理學、精神醫學的相關專家，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想這個部分是我非常重視的，我本身也是臺大心理系的合聘教授，所以我對心理的重要性……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那你要問你的專業同僚。"],["邱部長泰源：所以您的指導，我個人非常地認同。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，我不敢說指導啦！是拜託啦！我們為孩子爭取權益，其實就是在為大人更好的工作環境爭取權益。","好，最後一題，另外一個比較困難的，我先說我自己承認這一題比較難，但是我們花一些時間、長一點時間來討論，我們後續很願意跟衛福部直接召開討論會議，就是離開安置機構的小孩，在兒少權法原來的條文第五十九條跟第六十二條要求政府要追蹤輔導至少1年，事實上現在也有這樣做，那衛福部你們修法說要改成以後要提供家庭支持還有自立生活服務，這個正向完全給予肯定，也很謝謝衛福部願意陪孩子一起面對這個現實，可是有一個比較大的困境就是，目前政府提供支持服務到21歲，可是在國外他們有發現很多就算已經年滿21歲的小孩，就像我剛剛說的，他來自有創傷的原生家庭，他來自複雜的社區環境，他甚至在學校的學習可能都沒有那麼有把握的情況下，我們很難想像他一離開安置機構就要自己立刻獨立自主生活，其實也有很多兒少來跟我們反映這個現況，當然我知道我們把21歲延伸到23或25歲有資源分配的問題、有資源分配的困境，但我們有沒有機會往這裡去想？部長，你覺得呢？"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得如果專家認為這樣子是必要的，我們絕對仔細地來研議。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，至少我們開啟研議的討論，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個部分我們辦公室也會持續來追蹤。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：今天非常謝謝部長對於支持兒少的兩個議題都給予正面的回應，我們會一起努力，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。","葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","請楊曜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","羅智強","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","劉建國","陳培瑜","楊曜","王義川"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00005"}}},{"id":"159176","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159176","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fda5d907b50f204be0aae3c1a04a00b1bb46c869ad093de6af9f7472ed2d1f4185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:39:55 - 13:59:13","影片長度":"00:19:18","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【如遇加開院會本次會議取消，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T13:39:55+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T13:59:13+08:00","duration":1158,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.39721875,"end":7.371593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.008468750000002,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.235968750000001,"end":14.138468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.52659375,"end":15.657218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.58534375,"end":17.445968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.27284375,"end":18.762218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.88034375,"end":19.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.61846875,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.05284375,"end":22.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.90909375,"end":32.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.93721875,"end":39.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.720968750000004,"end":44.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.90534375,"end":53.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.284093750000004,"end":58.384718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.29596875,"end":64.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.39221875,"end":72.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.50909375,"end":80.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.81159375,"end":82.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.17409375000001,"end":86.12721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.03846875,"end":93.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.45909375000001,"end":96.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.80909375,"end":101.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.00659375000001,"end":117.31221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.22346875000001,"end":119.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.40471875,"end":120.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.53096875000001,"end":122.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.14659375000001,"end":124.70346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.49221875,"end":128.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.24284375000002,"end":132.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.63034375,"end":134.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.43596875,"end":137.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.10221875000002,"end":141.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.81471875,"end":144.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.70034375,"end":155.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.12034375000002,"end":157.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.45346875,"end":159.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.71471875,"end":161.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.52034375000002,"end":163.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.69721875000002,"end":165.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.76034375,"end":166.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.71784375000001,"end":168.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.65846875,"end":171.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.47659375,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.82221875000002,"end":176.42534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.08346875,"end":178.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.49659375000002,"end":181.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.90534375000001,"end":185.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.83721875,"end":189.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.21221875,"end":207.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.63971875000001,"end":214.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.15346875,"end":217.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.73534375000003,"end":221.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.08471875,"end":223.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.75534375,"end":226.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.94471875000002,"end":228.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.51846875,"end":231.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.58971875,"end":233.74971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.25596875000002,"end":236.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.38221875000002,"end":237.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.47909375,"end":240.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.69784375,"end":244.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.48221875000002,"end":245.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.36784375000002,"end":248.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.73846875,"end":255.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.53534375,"end":261.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.79596875000004,"end":262.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.53409375,"end":265.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.89659375,"end":268.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.53284375000004,"end":273.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.14846875,"end":280.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.10096875,"end":283.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.29034375000003,"end":297.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.53284375000004,"end":304.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.11409375,"end":307.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.13471875000005,"end":309.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.15971875,"end":310.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.17221875,"end":313.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.83846875,"end":321.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.29284375000003,"end":324.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.92534375,"end":326.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.32596875,"end":326.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.67159375,"end":332.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.64534375,"end":337.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.40846875,"end":350.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.21659375,"end":352.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.51596875,"end":358.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.65409375,"end":363.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.90659375,"end":367.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.78784375000004,"end":368.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.73284375000003,"end":369.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.39096875,"end":370.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.52159375,"end":371.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.52534375000005,"end":375.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.95096875,"end":377.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.36409375000005,"end":385.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.12659375000004,"end":393.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.42096875000004,"end":398.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.68596875000003,"end":422.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.30659375000005,"end":520.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.3547187500001,"end":522.3797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.6159687500001,"end":536.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.6897187500001,"end":567.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.17909375,"end":568.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.9209687499999,"end":569.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.96721875,"end":571.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.05971875,"end":572.9540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.2409687500001,"end":575.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.3759687500001,"end":573.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.26159375,"end":610.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.9397187500001,"end":615.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.95159375,"end":616.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.1203437500001,"end":618.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.1709687499999,"end":616.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.27596875,"end":620.3897187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.0984687499999,"end":621.9253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.30096875,"end":629.6709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":630.00846875,"end":631.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.52721875,"end":632.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.97846875,"end":634.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.34534375,"end":635.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.5434687500001,"end":637.3659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.9734687499999,"end":641.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.4665937500001,"end":641.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.18784375,"end":654.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.20284375,"end":658.8647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.67909375,"end":668.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.79284375,"end":660.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.05409375,"end":662.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.5847187500001,"end":669.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.2553437500001,"end":672.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.4109687499999,"end":676.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.28846875,"end":676.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.0222187500001,"end":678.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.92909375,"end":693.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":679.8740937500002,"end":680.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.67909375,"end":690.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.74159375,"end":690.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.9778437500001,"end":690.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":693.0365937500001,"end":695.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.51721875,"end":697.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.79534375,"end":697.8459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.8459687500001,"end":697.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.8797187499999,"end":697.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.9809687500001,"end":698.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":698.03159375,"end":700.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.5378437500001,"end":700.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.7822187500001,"end":700.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.84971875,"end":717.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.3872187500001,"end":729.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.2122187500001,"end":740.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.7422187500001,"end":741.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.68721875,"end":742.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":743.1047187500001,"end":744.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.6572187500001,"end":745.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.5303437500002,"end":752.9934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.44909375,"end":768.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.05846875,"end":769.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":770.0203437499999,"end":770.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.03721875,"end":770.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":770.50971875,"end":771.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":771.60659375,"end":775.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":775.55534375,"end":778.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":777.8503437500001,"end":785.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.79096875,"end":780.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.0053437500001,"end":792.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":788.9878437500001,"end":790.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":792.43034375,"end":792.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":792.68346875,"end":792.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":792.7509687500001,"end":794.2022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":794.4722187500001,"end":794.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":794.5734687500001,"end":794.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":794.7422187500001,"end":795.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":795.67034375,"end":796.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":801.00284375,"end":801.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":802.2178437500002,"end":803.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":805.49159375,"end":806.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":806.35221875,"end":807.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":808.32659375,"end":809.2040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":809.27159375,"end":810.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":810.0984687500002,"end":810.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":810.13221875,"end":810.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":810.84096875,"end":816.0047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":815.2622187500001,"end":819.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":820.4934687500001,"end":824.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":824.9990937500002,"end":833.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":834.1453437500002,"end":838.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":834.3647187500001,"end":834.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":838.7690937500001,"end":839.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":840.94596875,"end":841.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":841.75596875,"end":844.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":844.2197187500001,"end":846.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":846.41346875,"end":869.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":854.54721875,"end":854.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":869.5490937500001,"end":870.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":871.86096875,"end":873.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":874.3078437500001,"end":874.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":874.39221875,"end":883.2178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":880.3659687500001,"end":880.5178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":880.56846875,"end":880.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":883.2178437500002,"end":883.6397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":883.7578437500001,"end":883.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":883.7747187500001,"end":884.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":883.80846875,"end":886.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":884.38221875,"end":886.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":887.21721875,"end":890.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":891.57096875,"end":892.9209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":893.14034375,"end":893.7647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":893.1572187500001,"end":895.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":894.5915937500001,"end":895.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":895.62096875,"end":897.0047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":895.65471875,"end":895.7222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":895.80659375,"end":895.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":896.31284375,"end":896.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":897.2578437500001,"end":902.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":899.0803437500001,"end":901.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":902.96159375,"end":902.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":902.9953437500001,"end":903.4678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":903.07971875,"end":903.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":903.4678437500002,"end":908.3953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":908.3953437500002,"end":908.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":908.6147187500001,"end":912.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":913.9640937500001,"end":917.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":917.03534375,"end":930.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":931.0247187500001,"end":942.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":942.58409375,"end":954.2447187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":954.41346875,"end":960.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":961.2647187500002,"end":962.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":963.54284375,"end":975.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":976.0134687500001,"end":979.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":980.3334687500001,"end":983.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":984.4509687500001,"end":985.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":986.6615937500001,"end":989.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":990.69471875,"end":992.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":994.8459687500001,"end":996.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":996.92159375,"end":997.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":998.32221875,"end":1000.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1000.9209687500002,"end":1005.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1006.3547187500001,"end":1011.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1012.0415937500002,"end":1023.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1023.44909375,"end":1026.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1026.5372187500002,"end":1028.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1028.9503437500002,"end":1042.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1042.75409375,"end":1046.2134687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1046.41596875,"end":1048.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1048.8797187500002,"end":1052.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1052.03534375,"end":1053.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1054.00971875,"end":1054.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1054.31346875,"end":1080.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1059.1228437500001,"end":1059.4603437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1072.55534375,"end":1072.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1074.2259687500002,"end":1074.6478437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1074.6478437500002,"end":1074.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1078.5459687500002,"end":1078.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1080.2840937500002,"end":1081.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1080.8409687500002,"end":1081.6847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1081.29659375,"end":1082.4609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1083.40596875,"end":1084.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1084.0472187500002,"end":1085.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1085.1947187500002,"end":1085.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1085.68409375,"end":1086.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1086.0047187500002,"end":1106.8453437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1107.14909375,"end":1109.3597187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1109.02221875,"end":1114.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1114.91159375,"end":1117.5272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1114.9622187500001,"end":1115.2490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1117.5272187500002,"end":1118.2022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1118.2022187500002,"end":1121.1890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1120.81784375,"end":1124.8340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1123.19721875,"end":1128.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1128.8672187500001,"end":1128.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1128.8840937500001,"end":1133.1365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1133.74409375,"end":1134.5203437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1134.48659375,"end":1142.1309687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1142.6709687500002,"end":1145.6240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1142.9409687500001,"end":1151.7159687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1146.0290937500001,"end":1148.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1151.78346875,"end":1157.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1152.57659375,"end":1156.0528437500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.424,"end":9.746,"text":"我想今年一月起的流感還有落羅等疾病的流行"},{"start":29.69,"end":57.906,"text":"那全國急診室大爆滿二月更達到這個高峰然後急診醫學會也發文警告急診用篩情況他是講說急診用篩情況已達前所未有的嚴重程度部長當急診醫學會發出這個聲明我是挺感到汗顏也難過因為在你的任內遇到前所未有的急診用篩"},{"start":59.332,"end":85.608,"text":"那部長也貴為醫師雖然是加醫科但也來自台大總統也是醫師我們召委也是醫師蘇召委也是醫師我不是聽到要拖下去所以在你的任內發生這個前所未有的急診用篩的嚴重程度急診醫學會跳出來來訴諸媒體反而不是訴諸我們衛福部相關的單位"},{"start":87.09,"end":91.545,"text":"看如何來做最快的有效的應應的作為來減短這樣的用篩"},{"start":95.481,"end":122.306,"text":"我覺得這是坦白講這是很大的諷刺啦你如果用另外一個高度去思考就是在台灣的醫療尤其是在急診的部分已經很嚴重的問題在發生而且會越來越惡劣啦然後我們都很清楚嘛齁這個廉價的時間過年啊這個過年時間什麼地方人通常關公地窟嘛總告地窟嘛還有一窟你知道嗎便宜啦"},{"start":126.519,"end":139.564,"text":"便衣是絕對是過的時間是可以說弄成十八層、八層的對不對到急診流關的他或許不一定要上到便床但是他可能要在那邊待了三個鐘頭、四個鐘頭、五個鐘頭"},{"start":141.857,"end":166.107,"text":"他會覺得懦弱上吐下瀉他總是要有一個觀察床讓他可以平躺好好休息一下但是基本上是不可能的現在連急診室的那個流光的觀察床都不足甚至是坐在椅子上在等待處置這台灣的急診的狀態部長應該很清楚"},{"start":169.688,"end":178.016,"text":"部長不清楚 醫師師也應該很清楚相關的單位也會很清楚怎麼會變成這個樣子然後讓急診醫學會是透過媒體來發聲我覺得在連結上是出了什麼問題"},{"start":187.194,"end":204.981,"text":"今天如果部長是壓抑還是部長是攝護的我倒不會特別去提醒這個事情就是我用另外一個角度去思考去討論畢竟部長就是我剛剛特別提到你來自台大嘛然後又是加一科的專職這樣的一個專業的醫師總統也是醫師啊那我們怎麼會在這個當下發生這麼嚴重的讓急診醫學會沒有辦法跟你們"},{"start":215.339,"end":239.679,"text":"來做反應 來看如何應應來讓這樣的急診 庸篩不會破紀錄的 前所未有的來得到舒緩我記得這件事情部長要講清楚我也覺得這件事情部長要非常慎重因為等一下會再討論分級醫療分級醫療八年了為什麼做不好你們衛務部連分級的管理都出問題"},{"start":241.755,"end":248.497,"text":"你們衛護部連分級怎麼做都一直出問題啊所以會累死部長今天這件事情如果沒有很慎重的很嚴肅的然後去面對然後而且那個積極的應變的方式趕快出來我覺得我覺得我覺得不要說醫療體系會崩壞基準會崩壞連衛護部你都會崩壞"},{"start":271.567,"end":279.033,"text":"不過你說這個你不知道可以接受嗎我只是恢復之言啦這真的可以在你的臉上發生這件事"},{"start":281.541,"end":300.585,"text":"而且流感、A流、懦弱三種這種很惡劣的這種情況一直在發生你應該都會清楚的醫院會遇到什麼狀況診所會遇到什麼狀況而且又適逢到農曆的過年這其實如果有保護住一段時間或是在病院住一段時間的人就都很清楚了"},{"start":305.168,"end":313.049,"text":"一定有問題要怎麼應變 要怎麼處理你要怎麼想一套應變的方式不要讓這個北方 不要讓這個北方加速不要讓這個醫生 不要讓這個護士三星這麼大這麼大萬年了所以這個萬年都沒有辦法對你們就要透過媒體來跟你們說這真的是我們很大很大的檢討的地方"},{"start":335.213,"end":354.12,"text":"這個不用談到什麼專業了啦 我坦白講啦這種常態的 然後會發生的事情你們連這種常態或發生的事情你們都沒有辦法應變然後今天還有勞蘇昭偉排一個歷史專案報告來這邊做討論的情況之下這幾個人是要怎麼舉的好這家屬是要怎麼奉心喪意去進行"},{"start":360.348,"end":385.368,"text":"這次去診所的醫生要怎麼讓我去救人這次的護士要做到什麼程度 要抄到什麼程度這次能不能遞到你政府 還是便宜了更多的這種事前所未有呢急診用篩情況已達前所未有的嚴重程度你們不敢否認嘛 事實就如此嘛為什麼會這樣呢"},{"start":387.182,"end":398.133,"text":"你們真的面對到問題然後了解到問題怎麼去處理這個問題是不是請部長能用最簡單最快的然後最重點式的方式來做個回應好不好"},{"start":398.735,"end":426.348,"text":"好的 我想我們在在每年過春節的時候我們都很擔心所以就有預備包括政府也幫忙所以我們買了10萬支的一個疫苗希望控制流感然後我們也開健保署也加重了那個各個 尤其是診所給他多30%的一個給付那機關署也在也在那個各個急診"},{"start":428.189,"end":449.859,"text":"補助來成立了傳染病的一個門診來分散急診的力量的一個人力的量能的承擔所以這樣的一個情況那當然我們的確這次的就診人數比較多就診人數比較多後闖的就比較多那其實這個部分我們都完全的有訴訟的掌控那自己急診醫學會其實我跟"},{"start":451.52,"end":470.415,"text":"集子醫學院的理事長是非常熟悉所以我們一直在討論那他們可能集子醫學院本身也覺得必須要呼籲當然他要發布這個我是尊重而且我們悉心因為總是要面對問題嘛那問題出來就是來解決啊所以那個"},{"start":471.676,"end":487.516,"text":"我們來探討NEC是一回事解決困難才是重要的所以我們就馬上發動NEC的一個調配的機制第二個我們也發動區域的聯防第三個我們更是希望民眾如果有任何問題是不是優先先到你的"},{"start":488.837,"end":504.665,"text":"各地的一個社區診所先做一個screen因為可能很多流感啊那種病毒在那邊處理就好了這是一個短暫那我們持續這樣努力的就是我們護理的工作環境待遇跟一個環境另外也"},{"start":505.325,"end":522.004,"text":"健保署馬上在處理集中症方面的一個給付這個部分也馬上會來5月會來落實我們緊急希望來改善未來我們會更聆聽各方的聲音看看怎麼樣來共同來面對這個醫療界的一個很重要的問題"},{"start":523.085,"end":545.944,"text":"部長我想不用聆聽了你直接要到現場到戰場去實地的了解這個我想很多面相要討論也有面相要處理對不對但是我們簡單講一下基層醫學會特別有做這樣的呼籲我在波文也特別提到我不曉得你們到現在為何不可以去掌控"},{"start":546.644,"end":574.991,"text":"掌握了全國像遇到這種兩三類型的流感在交互的時候在盛行的時候那你必須要去掌握全國這些急診室的觀察床還是一般的病床還是這個ICU的使用率還是空床率都有掌握而且15分鐘就會換心理次你們怎麼掌握我們有那個平台哪一個平台可以跟我說清楚哪一個平台嗎"},{"start":576.868,"end":604.302,"text":"對於急診的及時就醫人數的話其實我們是自動間接醫院的掛號系統所以是說每15分鐘登記一次所以就醫的來診量跟住院的在ICU特別是加護病房因為現況的部分其實塞車的都是那幾家大醫院然後以這樣子的來說的話其實我們在部裡面的政策其實就是重症不漏接然後那個系統基本上面就是連從我們的"},{"start":605.562,"end":629.43,"text":"衛福部的緊急藥管理系統裡面去接醫院的掛號的一個系統以上就是就是到醫院的一個掛號系統你們去透過那個系統去掌握掌握病床數ICU急診的觀察床急診的待床人數急診的待床人數然後跟所謂的那個我們加護病房的空床數使用率"},{"start":630.69,"end":641.769,"text":"那個系統可以那個系統是在給你做這樣的功能還是只有在統計那個後程的功能"},{"start":643.84,"end":672.474,"text":"給民眾的其實很重要的其實民眾需要知道就是哪邊現在有等候很多的後床的人數所以公開給民眾的即時資訊其實是後床的人數每一家醫院的後床人數這是公開給民眾的這是公開給民眾嘛對不對那你衛部你要去掌握嘛對不對那你衛部掌握是透過什麼掌握你是透過這個掌握跟一般民眾去看這個地方的待床數後診數還有我們還要掌握江戶病房的"},{"start":673.602,"end":694.151,"text":"你怎麼掌握嘛哪一個系統掌握我們的緊急醫療管理系統緊急醫療管理系統可以去掌握全國現在遇到這樣的疫情情況之下哪一家醫院還有多少的空床宿哪一家醫院家戶病房 ICU其他沒有嘛急診沒有嘛一般病床沒有嘛或診病人有啊"},{"start":695.592,"end":716.723,"text":"後診病人是後診病人的人數嗎還有等候病後床的就是說我們掌握的除了等候的人數就是還沒被看的嘛然後第二個其實是已經看完以後在流管的人數還有就是說流管確定要住院大概這幾個是我們會持續掌握的人數"},{"start":717.443,"end":745.451,"text":"沒有 這蘇昭薇來行的 你要讓她說她會聽下去喔你說我會不會聽到 有沒有聽到沒有我再請到一邊就對了Common Lighting 你是怎麼掌握你們有什麼系統去掌握Common Lighting 就是你衛護部成立一個指揮中心我知道對一邊有ICU 我知道對一邊還有多少的控窮力我知道對一邊可以怎麼做讓我去做調配嘛 對不對那你是用哪一個系統也是緊急醫療管理系統緊急醫療管理系統"},{"start":746.584,"end":775.16,"text":"不對吧你COVID-19爆發的時候衛生部不是有建設一個叫做全國負壓病房的管理系統當時是為了掌握負壓病房的空床域嘛請139家隔離醫院每日自結合並追蹤管理系統通報負壓病房隔離病床的收治情形嘛對不對讓指揮中心能夠掌握全國負壓病房的即時動態嘛是不是這樣那個是不是啦我要講的是這邊在講的是負壓隔離病房"},{"start":775.72,"end":795.937,"text":"對嘛 這戶要是用這樣處理嘛 對不對對 然後他要人工通報可是我們這邊是直接接醫院的住院管理系統所以是直接自動通報直接接受醫院的住院的系統對好 所以你就可以即時去掌握這家醫院的ICU對的空窗率 空窗數對朝偉 你 朝偉已經在嘆氣了你說對你自己說對"},{"start":805.529,"end":807.071,"text":"每天不管是長官或我們自己內部都有都掌握到11點跟下午3點的一個狀況"},{"start":825.808,"end":835.557,"text":"不過你要看喔你要看COVID-19爆發的時候你們是用什麼呢你們是用這個全國負壓病房的管理系統好然後這個是什麼請139家隔離醫院"},{"start":840.97,"end":869.787,"text":"每日是結合並追蹤管理系統通報這個是人工的我們現在目前這個是我們在講的是傳染病防治所以他是139家醫院我們全國的急救責任醫院是205家所以我們的急救責任醫院的數目遠比隔離醫院來的多然後因為大家人工通報這個增加人工的負荷所以我們這邊的緊急藥管系統是直接借劫然後反而可以減少人力以上"},{"start":871.892,"end":890.339,"text":"真的我們的系統是可以確認你現在可以跟部長講說全國現在哪一家就是205家嘛對不對這家醫院哪邊有空床ICU 監護病房還有後床後床的人後床的人數"},{"start":891.959,"end":911.235,"text":"後診的人數後診跟後診的人數不一樣後診不一定要去後床啊對 後診就是說沒看到的啦是嘛是嘛 沒看到就不一定去變成了等要斷的啦 是啊等要斷的 另外就是ICU 那也很重要嘛ICU的空床現在的狀況啊你我剛才說的等要斷的人沒有代表你我剛才說的你的空白房啊"},{"start":914.142,"end":930.1,"text":"你說地方有六個地方 那就另外一個體系沒關係啦 我覺得現在已經是AI時代嘛AI行動創新內閣如果連這樣的系統都建置得很奇怪如果說今天community的時候還要去借CDC的所謂的結核病最終管理系統"},{"start":931.101,"end":950.034,"text":"那我就覺得到現在沒有把這個東西建設起來這個衛護部有愧對國人這第一件事情第二件事情分級醫療我跟部長講部長特別重視分級醫療但分級醫療不處理妥當的話我們下次的開會還是會再討論到分級醫療這個我都有特別提供出來數字應該也跟你們一樣你自己可以看醫學中心看診率106年看診率是10.65%113年是再往上"},{"start":961.501,"end":967.886,"text":"然後這個113的全國轉整數上轉的數額高達99萬222件下轉的只有10萬08千多件等於是1比9啦如果要說那麼嚴重是1比10啦因為是99萬多嘛"},{"start":980.373,"end":992.116,"text":"若是說對的額度要轉上去的上轉的這個數跟下轉數就是不符合比例所以1比10嘛這個情況一直沒有改善過啊所以我才說你們分級醫療在這個地方就連衛福部都沒有再分級了啦你如果去交代這些大醫院小醫院跟你再做分級醫療"},{"start":1006.397,"end":1022.464,"text":"包委員這個病人如果已經到譬如說到台大醫院你要他到中興醫院去住院那是要揮盡多少我們是揮盡多少苦心跟他說你到中興醫院也可以得到很好的一個照顧還有那邊的總醫師都會來看所以這樣的"},{"start":1024.304,"end":1048.174,"text":"所以第一個應該是先讓民眾知道他的問題到哪邊看是最適合的我剛剛有報告如果他的身體有任何不舒服我們希望他旁邊有社區診所有家庭醫師先跟他過濾他自然就會說你這個我直接去中心醫院斷他就好了不用去台台台你可能要等很久的那裡也沒床等等這些我相信"},{"start":1050.354,"end":1071.779,"text":"這樣這個才是真的分歧醫療啦不然你說的是一個樣態啦有這個樣態這是事實嘛對不對尤其你跟便衣你要再叫一台也不會啦這我們知道啦這很清楚但是我現在是要跟你說你一般接受你要上傳去大型便衣就對了其實像專程當中開到人家的衣繩也會說得很清楚嘛接受衣繩會跟你說你代替找什麼人你去代替找衣繩嘛就很簡單就這樣解決嘛但是"},{"start":1075.2,"end":1099.027,"text":"他來大便宜的 其實他想要大便宜的 舊地的對嗎 異地的他可以去一般接受嘛啊 也行啊對啊 啊這要怎麼處理這要怎麼存這要怎麼存上轉的 這樣處理有高的測試啊 如果他轉下去我們一個也給他幾百塊的一個下轉的費用啊所以那個 所以這個也 這幾天來一直在鼓勵啊"},{"start":1099.967,"end":1113.894,"text":"這個我是確定知道的啦因為我們很鼓勵攤辦性病就盡量轉回社區去去看就好了在大型的醫院的醫師有感想說你去哪家診所嗎轉到哪家診所去嗎"},{"start":1115.143,"end":1132.084,"text":"其實現在都有社區醫療群的制度是沒有錯啦所以那個都大概我台大醫院我們上轉藥到的醫院會很明確啦我們下轉藥到其他診所下轉的醫院有很多它的轄下可能有100家診所對譬如台大醫院的社區醫療群有5個每一個大概有10個"},{"start":1134.266,"end":1147.816,"text":"診所 沒關係啦 不用時間管理啦 要不要給教育委員我自己做主席 我想你可以去掃去我們參考嗎下轉的情況 為什麼會這麼低嘛你們的檢討是在什麼地方 怎麼樣來改善對 一個星期可以給我們嗎好 先保持 先保持謝謝 感謝 謝謝劉建國委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1365,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時40分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好！"],["劉委員建國：部長辛苦了，有很多挑戰啦！"],["邱部長泰源：是，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：我想今年1月起的流感，還有諾羅等疾病的流行，結果急診室大爆滿，2月更達到高峰，然後急診醫學會也發文警告急診壅塞情況，它是說「急診壅塞情況已達前所未有的嚴重程度」，部長，當急診醫學院發出這個聲明，我是替你感到汗顏也難過，因為在你的任內遇到前所未有的急診壅塞，部長也貴為醫師嘛！雖然是家醫科，但也來自臺大，那總統也是醫師，我們的召委也是醫師，蘇召委是醫師，我不是故意要拖你下水。在部長的任內發生前所未有的急診壅塞的嚴重程度，然後急診醫學會跳出來訴諸媒體，反而不是訴諸衛福部的相關單位看如何做最快的、有效的因應作為來減緩這樣的壅塞，坦白講，我覺得這個是很大的諷刺啦！","部長，你如果用另外一個角度去思考臺灣的醫療，尤其在急診的部分，已經有很嚴重的問題在發生，而且會越來越惡劣，然後我們都很清楚嘛！在連假的時間，因為農曆過年期間什麼地方人最多？觀光地區嘛！宗教地區嘛！還有一區你知道嗎？醫院啦！醫院在過年期間可以說是全部都爆床、滿床就對了，到急診留觀的，他或許不一定要上到病床，但是他可能要在那邊待3個鐘頭、4個鐘頭、5個鐘頭，他或許得了諾羅，上吐下瀉，他總是要有一個觀察床讓他可以平躺，好好休息一下嘛！但是基本上是不可能啦！現在連急診室留觀的觀察床都不足，甚至你是坐在椅子上等待處置，臺灣的急診狀態部長應該要很清楚，就算部長不清楚，醫事司也應該很清楚，相關的單位也會很清楚，怎麼會變成這個樣子，然後讓急診醫學會是透過媒體來發聲？我覺得在連結上是出了什麼問題？今天如果部長是牙醫，還是部長是社福的，我倒不會特別去提醒這件事情，我會用另外一個角度去思考、去討論，但畢竟部長就是我剛剛特別提到的，你來自臺大，然後又是家醫科的專業醫師，總統也是醫師啊！那我們怎麼會在這個當下發生這麼嚴重的狀況，讓急診醫學會沒有辦法跟你們反映，看要如何來因應，讓這樣的急診壅塞不會破紀錄的、前所未有的，然後來得到舒緩？","我覺得這件事情部長要講清楚，我也覺得這件事情部長要非常慎重，因為等一下會再討論到分級醫療，分級醫療8年了，為什麼做不好？你們衛福部連分級的管理都出問題啊！你們衛福部連分級怎麼做都一直出問題，所以會累死部長啊！今天這件事情如果沒有很慎重、很嚴肅地去面對，而且那個積極應變的方式不趕快出來，我覺得不要說醫療體系會崩壞、急診會崩壞，連衛福部都會崩壞啊！部長，我說這些不知道你可以接受嗎？我真的是肺腑之言啦！對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["劉委員建國：怎麼可以在你的任內發生這種事情？而且流感、A流、諾羅摻著這種很惡劣的情況一直在發生，你應該清楚醫院會遇到什麼狀況、診所會遇到什麼狀況，而且又適逢農曆過年，其實如果有在衛福部待一段時間或是有在醫院待一段時間的人就會很清楚，這一定有問題，要怎麼去應變、要怎麼去處理，你要怎麼想出一套應變的方式，不要讓這些病患、這些病患家屬、這些醫生及這些護士產生這麼大、這麼大的怨言，然後這個怨言還無法直接對你們，還要透過媒體來跟你們說，這真的是我們要做很大檢討的地方。","這個不用談到什麼專業了啦！我坦白講啦！這種常態會發生的事情，你們連這種事情都沒有辦法應變，然後今天還有勞蘇召委排一個類似專案報告來這邊做討論的情況之下，這些急診的人怎麼能夠被救治？這些家屬怎麼能夠放心送他去急診室？這些急診室的醫生怎麼能夠好好去救人？這些護士要做到什麼程度、操到什麼程度，才能得到政府或是醫院更多的重視？前所未有耶！「急診壅塞情況已達前所未有的嚴重程度」，你們也不敢否認嘛！事實就是如此，為什麼會這樣？你們真的面對到問題，然後瞭解到問題，怎麼去處理這個問題，是不是請部長能用最簡單、最快的，然後最重點式的方式來做一個回應？好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的，我們在每年過春節的時候都很擔心，所以就有預備，包括政府也幫忙，我們買了10萬支的疫苗希望控制流感，然後健保署也加重給付，尤其是診所，給它多30%的給付，那疾管署也在各個急診補助，成立了傳染病的門診來分散急診人力量能的承擔，所以是這樣的一個情況。當然的確這一次的就診人數比較多，就診人數多，候床的就比較多，其實這個部分我們都完全有數字的掌控。","至於急診醫學會，其實我跟急診醫學會的理事長非常熟悉，所以我們一直在討論，可能急診醫學會本身也覺得必須要呼籲，當然它要發布這個我是尊重，而且我們虛心來面對，因為總是要面對問題嘛！那問題出來就是來解決啊！我們來探討原因這是一回事，解決困難才是重要，所以第一個，我們就馬上發動院內的調配機制；第二個，我們也發動區域的聯防；第三個，我們更是希望民眾如果有任何問題，是不是優先到各地的社區診所先做一個screening？因為可能很多的流感、諾羅病毒在那邊處理就好了，這是一個短暫的，那我們持續在努力的就是護理的工作環境、待遇。","另外，健保署馬上在處理急重症方面的給付，這個部分在5月會來落實，我們緊急希望來改善，未來我們會更聆聽各方的聲音，看看怎麼樣共同來面對醫療界一個很重要的問題。"],["劉委員建國：部長，我想不用聆聽了，你要直接到現場、到戰場去實地瞭解嘛！我想很多面向要討論啦！有的面向應該要處理，對不對？但是我們簡單講一下，急診醫學會有特別做這樣的呼籲，我在po文也特別提到，我不曉得你們到現在衛福部可以去掌控、掌握啦！全國像遇到這種兩、三種類型的流感在交互的時候、在盛行的時候，你必須要去掌握全國這些急診室的觀察床，還是一般的病床，或是ICU的使用率、空床率嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：有，這個都有掌握。"],["劉委員建國：都有掌握？"],["邱部長泰源：而且15分鐘就會換新一次。"],["劉委員建國：你們怎麼掌握？"],["邱部長泰源：我們有平臺。"],["劉委員建國：哪一個平臺？可以跟我們說清楚是哪一個平臺嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：請司長。"],["劉司長越萍：對於急診的即時就醫人數，其實我們是自動介接醫院的掛號系統，每15分鐘登記一次，所以就就醫的來診量跟住院在ICU的，特別是加護病房，因為現況的部分其實塞車的都是那幾家大醫院，以這樣來說的話，其實我們在部裡面的政策就是重症不漏接，然後那個系統基本上就是從我們衛福部的緊急醫療管理系統裡面去接醫院的掛號系統，以上。"],["劉委員建國：就是到醫院的掛號系統，你們透過那個系統去掌握。"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：掌握病床數、ICU、急診的觀察床，那個系統……"],["劉司長越萍：急診的待床人數，還有加護病房的空床數、使用率。"],["邱部長泰源：都有，那個都有掌握。"],["劉委員建國：那個系統可以？那個系統是給你做這樣的功能，還是只有在統計候診的功能？"],["劉司長越萍：給民眾的，其實很重要的，民眾需要知道的就是哪邊現在有等候很多的候床人數，所以公開給民眾的即時資訊其實是候床的人數，每一家醫院的候床人數是公開給民眾的。"],["劉委員建國：好，這是公開給民眾，對不對？"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：那衛福部要去掌握，對不對？"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：那衛福部掌握是透過什麼掌握？也是透過這個掌握，跟一般民眾去看這個地方的待床數或候診數？"],["劉司長越萍：我們還有掌握加護病房的空床數。"],["劉委員建國：你怎麼掌握嘛？"],["劉司長越萍：我們就是介接醫院的……"],["劉委員建國：你用哪一個系統掌握？"],["劉司長越萍：我們的緊急醫療管理系統。"],["劉委員建國：緊急醫療管理系統可以去掌握全國現在遇到這樣的疫情情況之下，哪一家醫院還有多少的空床數，哪一家醫院……"],["劉司長越萍：加護病房。"],["劉委員建國：只有加護病房嘛！ICU嘛！"],["劉司長越萍：對，加護病房。"],["劉委員建國：其他沒有嘛！"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：急診沒有嘛！一般病床沒有嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：候診病人有啊！"],["劉委員建國：候診病人是候診病人的人數嘛！"],["劉司長越萍：還有等候病……"],["邱部長泰源：不是，候床的啦！"],["劉司長越萍：候床的人，就是說我們掌握的除了等候的人數，就是還沒被看的嘛！然後第二個是已經看完以後在留觀的人數，還有就是留觀確定要住院，大概這幾個是我們會持續掌握的人數。"],["劉委員建國：沒有，蘇召委也是內行的，你講的要讓他聽得下去哦！你講的我是聽得似懂非懂。","我再請教一點，COVID-19的時候你們是怎麼掌握的？你們用什麼系統去掌握？COVID-19就是衛福部成立一個指揮中心，我知道哪一家醫院有ICU，我知道哪一家醫院有多少空床率，我知道哪一家醫院可以讓我去做調配，對不對？那你是用哪一個系統？"],["劉司長越萍：也是緊急醫療管理系統。"],["劉委員建國：緊急醫療管理系統，不對吧！COVID-19爆發的時候，衛福部不是有建置一個叫做全國負壓病房的管理系統？當時是為了掌握負壓病房的空床率，請139家隔離醫院每日至結核病追蹤管理系統通報負壓隔離病床的收治情形，對不對？讓指揮中心能夠掌握全國負壓病房的即時動態，難道不是這樣嗎？"],["劉司長越萍：那一個是……"],["劉委員建國：是不是啦？"],["劉司長越萍：這邊在講的是負壓隔離病房。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！這個負壓隔離病房是用這樣在處理，對不對？"],["劉司長越萍：對，然後它要人工通報，可是我們這邊是直接接醫院的住院管理系統，所以是直接自動通報，所以我們……"],["劉委員建國：直接接收醫院的住院系統。"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：所以你就可以即時去掌握這家醫院的ICU空床率、空床數。"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：召委已經在嘆氣了。"],["主席：對啊！就是在說這個。"],["劉委員建國：你說對？你確定他說得對？"],["主席：有這個系統。"],["劉委員建國：有這個系統，這個系統有在用嗎？可以用嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然有啊！"],["劉司長越萍：有，可以。"],["劉委員建國：我覺得有問題吧！部長，你要不要去瞭解得更清楚？他現在跟我講，我等一下就test哦！"],["邱部長泰源：每天不管是長官或我們自己內部都有掌握到，譬如說11點跟下午3點的狀況。"],["劉委員建國：不是，部長你來看，COVID-19爆發的時候你們是用什麼？你們是用這個全國負壓病房的管理系統，然後請139家隔離醫院每日至結核病追蹤管理系統通報欸！"],["邱部長泰源：這個是人工的，這個目前是自動的。"],["劉司長越萍：這個在講的是傳染病防治，所以它是139家醫院。我們全國的急救責任醫院是205家，所以急救責任醫院的數目遠比隔離醫院來得多，然後因為大家人工通報會增加人工的負荷，所以我們這邊的緊急醫療管理系統是直接介接，反而可以減少人力，以上。真的，我們的系統是可以確認。"],["劉委員建國：不是，你現在可以跟部長講說全國現在哪一家醫院，就是205家嘛！對不對？"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["劉委員建國：現在這幾家醫院哪邊有空床。"],["劉司長越萍：對，ICU加護病房。"],["劉委員建國：就叫ICU嘛！"],["劉司長越萍：對。"],["邱部長泰源：還有候床的人數、候診的人數，還有ICU……"],["劉委員建國：候床跟候診的人數不一樣，候診不一定要去候床。"],["邱部長泰源：對，候診就是說還沒有看到的。"],["劉委員建國：是嘛！他看了之後不一定要去病床。"],["邱部長泰源：候床是等著要住院的。"],["劉委員建國：是。"],["邱部長泰源：另外就是ICU，那個也很重要，ICU的空床現在的狀況。"],["劉委員建國：不是，你有辦法去掌握等著要住院的人，不代表你有辦法去掌握你的空病房啊！"],["邱部長泰源：你說上面有多少病房，那是另外一個體系。"],["劉委員建國：沒關係，我想現在已經是AI的時代了，「行動創新AI內閣」，如果連這樣的系統都建置得很奇怪，如果說今天COVID-19的時候還要去借CDC所謂的結核病追蹤管理系統，那我就覺得到現在沒有把這個東西建置起來，衛福部有愧對國人，這是第一件事情。","第二件事情，分級醫療，我跟部長講，部長特別重視分級醫療，但是分級醫療不處理妥當的話，我們下次開會還是會再討論到分級醫療。我講一個很簡單的數字就好，這個我都有特別提供出來，數字應該也跟你們一樣，你從這裡可以看到醫學中心看診率，106年看診率是10.65%，113年是再往上，然後112年全國轉診數，上轉的數額高達99萬9,220件，下轉的只有十萬八千多件，等於是1比9啦！如果要說得比較嚴重是1比10，因為是九十九萬多，就是說從下面要轉上去的，上轉數跟下轉數就是不符合比例，是1比10嘛！這個情況一直沒有改善過啊！所以我才說你們的分級醫療在這個地方，就連衛福部都沒有在分級了，你如何去交代這些大醫院、小醫院跟你在做分級醫療？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個病人比如說已經到臺大醫院，你要他到中興醫院去住院，我們是要費盡多少苦心跟他說，你到中興醫院也可以得到很好的照顧，還有那一邊的總醫師都會來看。所以第一個，應該是先讓民眾知道他的問題到哪邊看是最適合的，我剛剛有報告，如果他的身體有任何不舒服，我們希望他旁邊有社區診所，有家庭醫師先跟他過濾，他自然就會說你就直接去中興醫院住院就好了，不用去臺大，去臺大你要等很久，那邊也沒有病床等等，我相信這個才是真的分級醫療啦！"],["劉委員建國：沒有，部長，你說的是一個樣態啦！有這個樣態，這也是事實，對不對？有的已經進到醫院了，你叫他再去哪裡他也不要，這個我們知道，這個很清楚。但是我現在是要跟你說，你一般診所如果要上轉去大醫院，實際上，醫生在開轉診單都會說得很清楚，診所醫生會跟他說你去臺大找什麼人，你去找哪一位醫生，很簡單就能解決，但是他來大醫院的，事實上他不必到大醫院來救治、醫治，他可以轉去一般診所嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：也是可以啊！"],["劉委員建國：對，那這個怎麼處理？"],["邱部長泰源：我們當然是有鼓勵……"],["劉委員建國：有沒有像上轉這樣在處理？"],["邱部長泰源：有鼓勵的措施啊！如果他轉下去，我們一個也給他幾百塊的下轉費用，所以這幾年來也一直在鼓勵，這個我是確定知道的啦！因為我們很鼓勵他慢性病就儘量轉回社區去拿藥，去那邊看診就好了。"],["劉委員建國：對，那在大型醫院的醫師有跟他講去哪家診所嗎？轉到哪家診所去嗎？有嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：其實現在也都有社區醫療群的制度。"],["劉委員建國：是沒有錯啦！"],["邱部長泰源：所以大概臺大醫院我會……"],["劉委員建國：我們上轉要到哪家醫院會很明確啦！我們下轉要到其他診所……"],["邱部長泰源：下轉的醫院有很多，它的轄下可能有100家診所，譬如說臺大醫院的社區醫療群有5個，每一個大概有10個診所。"],["劉委員建國：沒關係啦！部長，時間的關係，我不要讓召委為難，因為我自己可以來當主席，你能夠給我們一個數字做參考嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：你說下轉下來？"],["劉委員建國：下轉的情況為什麼會這麼低，然後你們的檢討是在什麼地方。"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題，如果那麼低我們怎麼樣來改善。"],["劉委員建國：對，一個星期可以給我們嘛？"],["邱部長泰源：好，健保署……"],["劉委員建國：可以啦？好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，感謝，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員，謝謝部長。","王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","羅智強","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","劉建國","陳培瑜","楊曜","王義川"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00005"}}},{"id":"159175","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159175","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f67214dc63f187ac40aae3c1a04a00b1b75917ee1f59655e592d0a82c07ca83cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"13:32:03 - 13:39:48","影片長度":"00:07:45","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【如遇加開院會本次會議取消，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T13:32:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T13:39:48+08:00","duration":465,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.40534375,"end":7.759718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.771593750000001,"end":13.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.184093750000002,"end":22.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.12034375,"end":23.402843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.33096875,"end":25.731593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.05221875,"end":26.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.06909375,"end":26.085968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.085968750000003,"end":26.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.10284375,"end":26.136593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.136593750000003,"end":26.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.17034375,"end":26.204093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.204093750000002,"end":26.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.727218750000002,"end":29.730968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.89971875,"end":30.372218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.81096875,"end":34.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.82721875,"end":35.282843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.603468750000005,"end":36.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.54409375,"end":40.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.69534375,"end":44.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.91846875,"end":46.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.977218750000006,"end":48.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.96409375,"end":51.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.84971875,"end":55.330343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.83221875,"end":57.642218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.01346875,"end":58.77284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.26221875,"end":66.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.42971875,"end":68.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.11721875,"end":69.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.34471875,"end":72.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.74096875000001,"end":75.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.98096875,"end":77.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.11159375000001,"end":78.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.95534375000001,"end":81.11534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.24596875,"end":82.98846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.45659375000001,"end":85.09784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.02596875,"end":89.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.00409375000001,"end":91.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.20221875,"end":93.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.15971875000001,"end":95.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.79221875,"end":97.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.88471875,"end":101.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.37784375000001,"end":103.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.30159375000001,"end":105.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.07346875,"end":107.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.94221875000001,"end":111.84471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.54909375000001,"end":114.37596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.01721875000001,"end":116.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.12659375000001,"end":118.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.70846875000001,"end":122.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.20159375,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.12534375000001,"end":127.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.79159375,"end":130.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.38596875000002,"end":132.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.89596875,"end":135.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.68909375,"end":137.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.24159375000002,"end":139.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.23659375,"end":143.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.95346875,"end":145.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.26971875,"end":147.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.76721875,"end":150.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.41221875000002,"end":153.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.53846875000002,"end":157.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.96409375000002,"end":159.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.10721875000002,"end":160.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.69346875000002,"end":162.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.05596875,"end":166.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.94159375,"end":169.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.48971875,"end":171.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.07159375,"end":173.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.36221875,"end":177.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.02846875,"end":179.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.84659375,"end":182.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.47909375,"end":184.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.36909375000002,"end":185.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.02284375000002,"end":189.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.99221875,"end":194.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.91596875000002,"end":198.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.91971875000002,"end":199.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.64096875,"end":204.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.19721875000002,"end":205.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.98596875,"end":208.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.85909375,"end":209.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.98971875,"end":211.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.06534375,"end":213.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.61784375000002,"end":214.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.66784375,"end":219.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.04284375,"end":229.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.98659375000003,"end":232.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.93971875000003,"end":233.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.15471875000003,"end":234.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.45409375000003,"end":237.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.54659375000003,"end":238.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.53346875000003,"end":243.08159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.38096875000002,"end":245.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.73096875000002,"end":246.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.82346875000002,"end":250.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.60346875000002,"end":254.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.42159375000003,"end":257.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.69534375,"end":260.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.96909375,"end":264.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.59284375000004,"end":265.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.38596875,"end":266.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.34346875,"end":269.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.94659375000003,"end":271.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.00534375,"end":274.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.36346875000004,"end":277.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.44721875,"end":281.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.21471875000003,"end":284.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.71221875000003,"end":286.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.78784375000004,"end":286.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.46284375,"end":288.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.61034375,"end":293.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.92596875000004,"end":299.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.35159375,"end":297.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.37659375000004,"end":303.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.30034375,"end":301.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.70534375,"end":302.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.64596875,"end":305.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.84846875,"end":304.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.68784375,"end":309.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.94909375000003,"end":308.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.17659375,"end":310.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.44221875,"end":312.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.60221875,"end":319.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.28471875,"end":326.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.68534375,"end":322.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.54596875000004,"end":322.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.35596875000005,"end":325.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.22471875,"end":326.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.11909375000005,"end":330.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.62909375000004,"end":332.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.82284375,"end":336.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.10971875,"end":333.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.20659375,"end":335.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.95721875000004,"end":337.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.63221875000005,"end":338.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.66159375,"end":340.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.82596875,"end":345.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.96471875000003,"end":343.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.02784375000005,"end":349.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.28846875000005,"end":350.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.40221875000003,"end":353.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.04721875,"end":357.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.30846875000003,"end":358.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.83534375000005,"end":367.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.23159375,"end":366.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.93971875,"end":368.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.83409375,"end":369.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.71159375,"end":373.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.25096875,"end":383.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.58409375,"end":375.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.26221875000005,"end":384.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.73034375000003,"end":387.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.34159375,"end":390.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.37909375000004,"end":392.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.86409375000005,"end":395.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.95221875000004,"end":398.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.47909375,"end":400.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.86284375,"end":406.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.21221875000003,"end":406.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.22909375,"end":406.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.27971875000003,"end":408.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.15284375000005,"end":422.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.11034375,"end":410.54909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.97471875,"end":415.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.91909375,"end":420.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.93971875000005,"end":422.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.39096875,"end":430.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.02784375000005,"end":425.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.76534375,"end":431.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.27159375,"end":435.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.69284375,"end":436.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.08096875,"end":438.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.98346875000004,"end":442.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.74659375000005,"end":450.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.45909375,"end":446.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.23096875000005,"end":448.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.67784375,"end":451.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.69034375,"end":453.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.32721875000004,"end":454.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.83346875,"end":454.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.66034375000004,"end":454.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.71096875,"end":460.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.12409375000004,"end":457.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.91284375000004,"end":458.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.72284375000004,"end":462.18659375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":27.18,"end":35.843,"text":"我今天要談一件很讓人家心疼也是捨不得的事情我們希望一起來補破網不要讓"},{"start":37.66,"end":65.108,"text":"失去親人的人傷口一直被掀開不要有造成二度傷害跟三度的傷害最近有一位傷心的媽媽一個貼文引起非常大的一個迴響她講她的處境下面很多留言說我碰到的狀況跟你非常的類似我們看一下這個媽媽的貼文是這樣講的"},{"start":67.466,"end":87.598,"text":"他講說剛剛衛生所來電請問說是我嗎?他說對然後他提說恭喜你們家小朋友滿六個月了媽媽說不好意思之前已經告訴你們了寶寶已經離開了"},{"start":91.032,"end":118.468,"text":"他的小孩不幸離開他了可是衛生所的人又打了電話來衛生所的人也說抱歉抱歉急忙掛了這個電話媽媽說他講完之後他開始裂崩開始掉眼淚了他實在不明白衛生所為什麼一直打電話來呢前幾個月衛生所打電話說要打疫苗就已經跟他講過一次了"},{"start":119.744,"end":132.348,"text":"而且之前去衛生所申請這個醫療補助的時候已經附了死亡的證明跟除腹的這個證明為什麼衛生所還一直打電話來傷我的心呢他問了一個很重要的問題為什麼負症事務所或者其他單位這個系統是不會連線嗎不只是這位傷心的媽媽他這個貼文貼出來之後啊"},{"start":148.826,"end":172.806,"text":"下面非常非常的多的留言有一個人就講了說我也有過同樣這個經歷他說他的小朋友啊小兒子滿月前就過世了那沒有滿一歲以前幾乎每個月都打預防針所以衛生所是幾乎每個月都打來每次都要跟他回說我小孩已經過世了"},{"start":175.39,"end":189.44,"text":"但是下一次 衛生所還是打電話來每次他都必須哭著一次說你們有必要每個月提醒我嗎我的小孩已經走了這不只是二次傷害 這傷口要先幾次手下講這個 你看這個也是健保 這個剛剛講是衛生所的問題健保局"},{"start":200.663,"end":214.359,"text":"有個民眾說他接到了追繳健保費用的這個帳單可是我妹妹都已經離開兩年了當下他很激動 花瘋一樣去問最後一次救神是三個月內嗎另外這個右上角這個"},{"start":221.332,"end":250.192,"text":"這是一位曾經在衛生所實習的一個員工他講說他有一次啊打電話去關心關懷這個社區的老人打電話過去是一位男生接的他說你是某某伯伯嗎那男生跟他講說找他有什麼事情我們這裡衛生所是定期電話去關心伯伯那個男生說啊他已經過世了他說他掛完電話之後他接他自己像一個罪人"},{"start":251.633,"end":273.104,"text":"他聽到阿伯伯伯過世的消息他也很難過可是有時候為什麼這個員工就問啊為什麼沒有同步去更新資料呢讓這種事情發生呢下面有衛生所還有好幾個例子那個留言好多好多喔柏定是你們衛生所跟戶政事務所沒有連線嗎還是衛生所這邊的作業橫向的聯繫有問題為什麼這麼多人碰到這樣一個問題"},{"start":279.748,"end":285.935,"text":"這個可能各縣市的縣市政府的一個互動真的是需要來加強"},{"start":288.664,"end":312.465,"text":"我們可以來瞭解狀況來瞭解狀況現在連線的狀況是怎麼樣所以部長你現在回去今天就做好不好好沒問題不要讓這個事情再老實講這真的很心疼的事情小孩離開了已經很捨不得了那你又打電話去提醒他你傷口要再掀一次好不好老實講這個事情對政府來講很容易做到我們是一個數位的政府"},{"start":313.649,"end":316.715,"text":"到現在我們的戶政事務所跟我們的衛生局衛生單位這個連線都還連不起來嗎"},{"start":320.479,"end":348.346,"text":"所以第一個事情 柏定你現在阿波東的委員你先去碰一下馬上來瞭解一下 到底你們衛生所跟副政事務所之間那個連接到底是怎麼樣因為衛生所是縣市政府在管的你也主管機關嘛 對不對你也主管機關 這是全國的問題啦是是是柏定 這兩件事情這健保局這個稍微我們來瞭解一下去瞭解一下 但是連接是什麼 當然他有可能碰到 例如說可能是個資的"},{"start":350.342,"end":358.193,"text":"保護問題可是這顯然就是很多人都碰到問題你知道嗎這個推文有多少人上去知道嗎超過一百萬的人"},{"start":360.888,"end":390.428,"text":"流言非常多都是很多人碰到類似剛剛講的小孩或是妹妹家裡面的長輩也一樣啊不要再去做惡毒的這個傷害對政府來講只要保證你你回去把它問清楚第一個護生室我跟你們連線到底目前是怎麼樣那如果真的是有個資保護的問題要怎麼去解決是的那第二個還有一個問題喔你們衛生所內部還有健保局裡面內部自己的這個橫向的聯繫為什麼衛生所裡面第一個人打去"},{"start":391.389,"end":398.061,"text":"他如果說知道已經是有一個家裡人家小朋友離開了你應該註記啊怎麼會有第二人又打去呢"},{"start":399.517,"end":420.849,"text":"所以不是只有跟護送事務所就是衛生局裡面這個單位這個好不好橫向聯繫要能夠改進好不好我們來瞭解馬上來瞭解好那這件事情要慢慢補充我們共同來做希望這個事情不要再發生瞭解瞭解你今天很清楚那你一個禮拜你好好不好一個禮拜跟委員報告通電話不要通電話你給我一個"},{"start":423.47,"end":451.264,"text":"一個禮拜內給我一份報告就是你查的這個狀況到底是什麼地方出了問題當然也有可能我覺得很有可能是個資啦可是我跟你講全世界比較進步的國家沒有說家裡面有一個人離開了然後用一個個資所以其他相關的單位相關的單位比如說你還要發你是要打疫防針之外一個小孩或一個人他有很多都是跟其他部位都有關係嘛對不對所以這橫向這個一定是要解決的要不然台灣就變成一個很落後很落後的一個我們是數位強國耶"},{"start":453.385,"end":457.314,"text":"是 是 好不好好 謝謝這事情要趕快 一個禮拜你跟我講好 沒問題到底這個問題在什麼地方來準備怎麼解決 好不好謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1312,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（13時32分）請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我今天要談一件很讓人家心疼，也捨不得的事情，希望一起來補破網。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["張委員啓楷：不要讓逝去親人的人傷口一直被掀開，不要造成二度傷害跟三度傷害。","最近有一位傷心的媽媽發一則貼文，引起非常大的迴響。她講她的處境，而下面很多留言說「我碰到的狀況跟你非常地類似」。我們來看一下，這個媽媽的貼文是這樣講的。她講說剛剛衛生所來電說請問是我嗎？她說對。然後對方提到恭喜，你們家小朋友滿6個月了。媽媽則說不好意思，之前已經告訴你們，寶寶已經離開了。她的小孩不幸離開她了，可是衛生所的人又打了電話來。衛生所的人員說抱歉、抱歉，急忙掛了這個電話。媽媽說，她講完之後開始淚崩、開始掉眼淚了，她實在不明白衛生所為什麼一直打電話來呢？前幾個月，衛生所打電話來說要打疫苗時，已經跟他講過一次了，而且之前去衛生所申請醫療補助的時候，已經附了死亡證明跟除戶證明，「為什麼衛生所還一直打電話來傷我的心呢？」她問了一個很重要的問題：「為什麼？戶政事務所或者其他單位系統是不會連線嗎？」","不只是這位傷心的媽媽，她這則貼文貼出來之後，下面有非常、非常多的留言。有一個人就講：「我也有過同樣這個經歷」，她說她的小朋友、小兒子滿月前就過世了，而沒有滿1歲以前，幾乎每個月都要打預防針，所以衛生所幾乎每個月都打來。她每次都回復對方說：「我的小孩已經過世了」，但是下一次衛生所還是打電話來，她每一次都必須哭一次，她說：「你們有必要每個月提醒我嗎？我的小孩已經走了。」部長，這不只是二次傷害啊！傷口要掀幾次？","左下角這個，你看！剛剛講的這個是衛生所的問題，而針對健保局，一個民眾說她接到催繳健保費用的帳單，可是「我妹妹都已經離開兩年了」，當下她很激動，發瘋一樣去問：「最後一次就診是三個月內嗎？」另外，右上角這個，這是一位曾經在衛生所實習的員工，他說他有一次打電話去關心、關懷社區的老人，打電話過去後是一位男生接的。他問「你是某某伯伯嗎？」那個男生跟他講：「找他有什麼事情？」「我們這裡是衛生所，是定期電話關心伯伯」，那個男生說：「他已經過世了」。他說他掛完電話之後覺得自己像一個罪人，聽到伯伯過世的消息，他也很難過，可是這個員工就問了，為什麼沒有同步更新資料、讓這種事情發生呢？下面還有好幾個關於衛生所的例子，留言好多、好多喔！部長，你們衛生所跟戶政事務所沒有連線嗎？還是衛生所這邊的作業中橫向聯繫有問題？為什麼這麼多人碰到這樣的問題？"],["邱部長泰源：這可能是各縣市政府的互動真的需要加強啦！我們可以了解狀況、了解現在的連線狀況怎麼樣。"],["張委員啓楷：所以，部長你現在回去……今天就做，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["張委員啓楷：不要讓這件事再……老實講，這真的很心疼，小孩離開已經很捨不得了，又打電話去提醒她，傷口又要再掀一次。好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["張委員啓楷：老實講，這件事情對政府來講很容易做到嘛！我們是一個數位的政府，到現在戶政事務所跟衛生局、衛生單位連線都還連不起來嗎？這是第一件事情，部長。"],["邱部長泰源：是、好。"],["張委員啓楷：你下午回去有空先問一下，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題，馬上來了解。"],["張委員啓楷：先了解一下，到底你們衛生所跟戶政事務所之間的連接情況到底怎麼樣。"],["邱部長泰源：因為衛生所是縣市政府在管的。"],["張委員啓楷：對，但你們是主管機關嘛！對不對？你是他們的主管機關，而這是全國的問題啦！"],["邱部長泰源：是、是、是。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這件事情……"],["邱部長泰源：健保署來了解一下。"],["張委員啓楷：去了解一下連線到底怎麼樣。當然也有可能碰到……例如說可能是個資的保護問題，可是顯然就是很多人都碰到問題。你知道這個貼文有多少人上去嗎？你知道嗎？超過100萬人，留言非常多，很多人都碰到類似的情況。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員提醒，這個部分我們……"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛我講這個小孩、或者妹妹、家裡面的長輩都一樣啊！不要再去做二度傷害。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我想這對政府來講……部長，你回去把它問清楚：第一個，戶政事務所跟你們的連線目前到底怎麼樣？如果真的有個資保護的問題，要怎麼解決？"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["張委員啓楷：第二，還有一個問題喔！是你們衛生所內部和健保局內部自己的橫向聯繫。衛生所裡面第一個人打去以後，如果知道有一個人家裡小朋友已經離開了，應該註記啊！怎麼會又有第二人打去呢？所以不是只有跟戶政事務所之間，就是衛生局單位裡面的橫向聯繫要能夠改進，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們來了解、馬上來了解。"],["張委員啓楷：好，那這件事情要麻煩部長要共同來做，希望不要再發生。"],["邱部長泰源：好，了解、了解。"],["張委員啓楷：你今天要很清楚，那1個禮拜裡面處理，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，1個禮拜跟委員報告。"],["張委員啓楷：不要通電話啦！不要通電話，你1個禮拜內給我一份報告。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["張委員啓楷：就是說明你查的狀況，到底是什麼地方出了問題。"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["張委員啓楷：當然我覺得很有可能是個資啦！可是我跟你講，在全世界比較進步的國家，沒有家裡是一個人離開了卻因為個資原因，其他相關單位還發……除了打預防針之外，一個小孩或一個人還有很多方面都跟其他部會有關係嘛！對不對？所以橫向聯繫問題一定要解決，要不然臺灣就變成一個很落後、很落後的國家了。"],["邱部長泰源：是的、是的、是。"],["張委員啓楷：我們是數位強國欸！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["張委員啓楷：好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：這事情要搞清楚。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["張委員啓楷：你1個禮拜內跟我講到底問題在什麼地方、準備怎麼解決，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員，謝謝部長。","繼續請劉建國召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","羅智強","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","劉建國","陳培瑜","楊曜","王義川"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00005"}}},{"id":"159174","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159174","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f1e25a0c7eec68e970aae3c1a04a00b1b75917ee1f59655e5cc0bfe413a39fb5b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"13:21:08 - 13:31:56","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【如遇加開院會本次會議取消，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T13:21:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T13:31:56+08:00","duration":648,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.96284375,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.52721875,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.76159375,"end":32.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.93721875,"end":35.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.447218750000005,"end":36.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.84784375,"end":38.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.33284375,"end":40.024718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.024718750000005,"end":44.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.80034375,"end":47.618468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.75346875,"end":52.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.204093750000006,"end":53.220968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.220968750000004,"end":58.064093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.33909375,"end":53.406593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.63846875,"end":56.039093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.055968750000005,"end":71.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.017218750000005,"end":62.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.46409375,"end":63.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.42159375,"end":65.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.33659375,"end":69.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.32784375,"end":71.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.64846875,"end":71.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.07034375,"end":75.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.58034375000001,"end":88.70909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.77659375,"end":90.54846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.92409375000001,"end":90.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.54846875000001,"end":90.56534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.56534375000001,"end":90.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.71721875,"end":90.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.90284375,"end":91.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.23596875000001,"end":92.86034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.26971875000001,"end":93.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.53096875,"end":99.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.03221875000001,"end":100.45409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.34846875000001,"end":101.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.41596875,"end":115.42221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.71971875000001,"end":101.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.75659375000001,"end":108.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.79034375,"end":109.09409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.42221875000001,"end":115.45596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.24909375,"end":117.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.02534375,"end":158.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.70471875,"end":145.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.27409375000002,"end":146.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.43846875,"end":148.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.91909375,"end":148.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.98659375,"end":152.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.84659375,"end":154.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.52971875,"end":157.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.48721875,"end":179.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.52096875,"end":158.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.03909375,"end":165.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.13534375,"end":169.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.69159375,"end":175.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.28596875000002,"end":180.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.52596875,"end":180.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.82971875,"end":180.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.89721875,"end":180.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.98159375,"end":190.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.92659375000002,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.19221875000002,"end":183.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.50784375,"end":195.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.49034375000002,"end":195.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.96659375000002,"end":196.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.01284375,"end":200.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.97034375,"end":202.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.30721875,"end":205.51784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.09159375000002,"end":207.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.84659375,"end":209.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.02784375000002,"end":210.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.38596875000002,"end":225.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.06096875,"end":213.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.22346875000002,"end":226.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.59034375000002,"end":230.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.74221875,"end":228.26534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.59409375,"end":230.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.35346875000002,"end":233.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.67409375000003,"end":231.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.26471875000001,"end":232.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.41221875000002,"end":233.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.42909375000002,"end":237.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.82534375,"end":237.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.49159375000002,"end":243.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.85784375000003,"end":248.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.29159375,"end":256.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.29471875,"end":257.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.96534375,"end":274.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.22846875,"end":276.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.11846875000003,"end":278.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.95784375,"end":280.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.05034375,"end":282.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.94034375,"end":285.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.56784375,"end":290.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.61846875000003,"end":290.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.93909375000004,"end":290.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.95596875,"end":290.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.97284375000004,"end":291.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.02346875,"end":292.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.64784375,"end":291.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.57596875,"end":292.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.60971875,"end":292.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.62659375000004,"end":293.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.03159375,"end":293.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.45346875,"end":294.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.68096875000003,"end":312.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.02659375,"end":298.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.43159375000005,"end":299.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.96721875000003,"end":299.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.51346875,"end":315.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.20096875,"end":318.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.64346875,"end":320.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.26784375,"end":321.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.98909375,"end":339.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.72721875,"end":325.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.01159375000003,"end":346.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.40284375000005,"end":358.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.31409375000004,"end":348.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.97221875,"end":349.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.56221875,"end":353.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.96721875000003,"end":354.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.84034375000005,"end":356.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.09346875,"end":356.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.92846875000004,"end":363.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.72096875,"end":368.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.23909375000005,"end":370.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.90971875,"end":381.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.44909375000003,"end":376.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.24159375000005,"end":385.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.29596875000004,"end":387.80159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.40096875,"end":386.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.80159375000005,"end":389.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.37096875000003,"end":389.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.59034375000005,"end":389.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.84346875,"end":389.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.67034375000003,"end":399.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.86284375,"end":408.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.97221875,"end":403.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.93346875000003,"end":408.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.77721875000003,"end":408.86159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.86159375000005,"end":415.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.50596875,"end":420.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.14659375,"end":449.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.53784375000004,"end":430.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.28846875000005,"end":432.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.02409375,"end":450.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.12096875000003,"end":450.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.18409375000005,"end":469.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.42596875000004,"end":469.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.88159375000004,"end":472.91909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.20596875,"end":473.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.44221875000005,"end":474.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.08346875,"end":476.29409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.29409375000006,"end":476.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.56409375000004,"end":485.22096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.64284375000005,"end":487.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.17409375000005,"end":494.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.36784375,"end":490.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.24471875,"end":497.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.45096875,"end":505.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.62284375,"end":508.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.08659375,"end":508.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.18784375,"end":510.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.25534375,"end":508.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.28909375,"end":508.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.83721875000003,"end":514.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.22909375,"end":514.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.81971875,"end":518.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.5659687500001,"end":519.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.9497187500001,"end":531.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.4922187500001,"end":536.8078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.48284375,"end":539.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.96346875,"end":544.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.77284375,"end":549.5990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.95346875,"end":551.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.2822187500001,"end":554.9990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.7122187500001,"end":559.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.94346875,"end":572.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.9709687500001,"end":576.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.41346875,"end":579.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.4465937500001,"end":595.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.6103437500001,"end":585.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.55534375,"end":588.3272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.8797187499999,"end":592.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.86221875,"end":614.1459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.8190937500001,"end":599.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.9878437500001,"end":600.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.1459687500001,"end":616.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.04409375,"end":619.9172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.5078437500001,"end":631.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.96596875,"end":647.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.13471875,"end":633.7209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.9522187499999,"end":639.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.96034375,"end":641.1459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.42784375,"end":648.7565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.17034375,"end":647.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.7565937500001,"end":648.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.95909375,"end":648.97596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.294,"end":8.164,"text":"來邱部長不好意思沒讓你坐下來這樣麻煩你好不好"},{"start":10.558,"end":36.539,"text":"委員好好直接切入重點大家都關心我們全國的急重症醫療量能是但是昨天爆發新聞我看到說昨天有個新聞是邱太元拍板護理跨科資源指引定案要研議要出來馬上今天又講說護理人員認為根本是跨科資源指引是犧牲權益啊部長"},{"start":37.881,"end":51.567,"text":"怎麼會有那麼大的落差現在我們會提出跨科資源指引嗎好 感謝委員的推行那這個是這樣子我們定期跟台灣醫療工會我想那個有醫師有護理師"},{"start":53.368,"end":57.089,"text":"我都理解這不用講背景說明啦我們現在在承認問題來回答問題好不好提議說有一個護理有護理的角度提出一個所以你昨天有沒有拍板我確定當然拍板要研議啊要把他的版本拿來他們也很客氣說希望兩個版本給我們來參考這樣子"},{"start":72.225,"end":98.702,"text":"所以那個我們因為相對這個在醫療公會其實也很代表基層的一個護理的心聲啦所以我們一定要去悉心的來也感謝他們願意提出版本這個他們也花了很多的精神所以我們正在為我們鼓勵所以版本你還沒有看到方向是什麼他版本昨天應該還沒有提出來是不是那個有沒有"},{"start":101.537,"end":115.205,"text":"要不要看一下昨天的新聞是怎麼跑馬以及今天早上護理師是怎麼樣的強烈的抗議他強烈譴責衛福部侵害護理的權益要求撤回跨科指引跟颱風天出勤指引"},{"start":116.274,"end":142.847,"text":"沒關係 這個我們齁 就到現在還搞不清楚不是 護理這幾個團體有護理師公會 護理醫學會 護理公會還有昨天我們定期見面的台灣醫療公會那台灣醫療公會提出來的一個他們不希望用院方的角度來做床的分配因為這樣有一點會影響到護理那護理輪流念力提出這樣一個我們當然要嚴厲啊那當然我也知道"},{"start":143.527,"end":147.832,"text":"他們裡面的代表講說在工會本席剛剛已經講了工會是反對這個的啦工會是反對嘛工會反對所以我也可以找工會來和我溝通一下啦總是要解決問題嘛"},{"start":158.564,"end":172.834,"text":"工會代表什麼工會代表就是護理人員嘛最基層的地線的護理人員那你們今天在做這樣子的一個指引的時候沒有找護理人員來討論那你昨天一直推說所謂的定期會但定期會"},{"start":173.775,"end":194.993,"text":"那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔那個就是護理人員喔"},{"start":203.345,"end":224.934,"text":"有沒有轉彎的方向是不是又轉彎了哪一方面轉彎有沒有要推出所謂的跨科資源指引如果有人適當而且是護理界都有共識的我們當然樂觀其成因為總比院方來院方來調床所以後續會不會找相關公會大家來討論沒問題啊"},{"start":227.631,"end":248.498,"text":"我們把所有相關的婦女團體通通找來討論啊好 部長你的承諾找所有的相關團體來討論來 另外喔我們一直講說三班互併比啊其實前兩天的這個總諮詢的時候那個總預算的複議的時候我也特別跟您請教是"},{"start":249.398,"end":275.691,"text":"其中申辦護病筆你現在都一直講是說要獎勵先行對不對回答很多的委員是我說實在話給醫院時間來補足人力習慣護病筆的政策我想這個也不要說一步到位然後好像馬上就要開罰但重點是現在大家的獎勵到底有沒有在一個公平公允的標準我覺得這是很重要的事情我們先問"},{"start":278.066,"end":292.678,"text":"幾個問題第一三班戶病比現在是以醫院來做單位還是以病床來做單位是各個病房還是整個整體醫院嘛"},{"start":296.054,"end":321.358,"text":"過去很多的護理人員一直在跟你強調一直在討論是說一家醫院裡面它有各個不同的狀況你如果說用整個醫院的人力跟整個醫院病床數據來做平均的話你那個數據沒有辦法如實的呈現時段也好這個醫院也好它都會有一個落差那醫護人員有沒有"},{"start":322.062,"end":351.028,"text":"您想要 您是司長嗎好蔡司長蔡司長有沒有之前有接受過護理人員一直跟你反應是說其實高低護病比互相稀釋可能會造成不公允的情況所以希望是能夠用病床為基礎單位來公告三班護病比這個三班護病比我們這個住院有兩大病床一個叫做一般急性病床一個是特殊病床那我們現在的三班護病比指的是急性一般"},{"start":352.562,"end":355.404,"text":"急性一般病床那這個全國大概有10萬床那這個病床其實有不同科別不同的科別但是在討論裡面可行跟理想當然可行跟理想總是有一個距離但是這個是經過了七個版本"},{"start":369.298,"end":384.895,"text":"半年的填報六次的系列的協商那當然大家沒有完全大家都滿意但是沒有辦法達成共識但是有共識啊共識就是說先上路就是護理社共識還是醫院的共識還是你衛福部的共識有護理團體有醫院很實在話講來部長是"},{"start":391.311,"end":419.665,"text":"剛剛司長也特別另外提到另外一個部分也是我想請教的就是所謂的病床其實有分一般急性的一般病房以及隔離病房特殊病房那你這個三班護病比其實是沒有把特殊病房給放進去的沒有放進計算那代表什麼代表說有一些護理人員他有可能他也要負責到這個部分但是他是沒有加入計算那某種程度上他也是增加護理人員的負擔啊"},{"start":421.429,"end":430.172,"text":"三班戶病比最大的目的就是整個醫院在一個復循環裡面那我們怎麼讓復循環變成正當然問題有優先次序嘛因為現在醫院裡面最留不住的其實是一般級性病床而且是他也是護理人員最大宗的因為一般級性病房大概是10萬床特殊病房是4萬床那他這個人力的配備設備人力的那個標準都不一樣市長來 部長"},{"start":451.226,"end":472.447,"text":"我其實今天點出來這個問題我們還是要一起面對就說現在我們看到的是希望護理人員能夠有更多護理人員投入大家都有熱情有想法是南丁格爾但是不是一而再再而三去壓榨或是說是讓他們負擔更重的沉重他們是南丁格爾但是不要把他們當成是塑膠麻糬"},{"start":473.514,"end":492.051,"text":"要持續的挪捏持續的壓榨那護理人員尤其是像今天我們看到台灣護士醫療產業工會他們也發出強烈的新聞稿來要求的時候是不是真的也應該聽聽護理人員的心情我們會請他來溝通最後"},{"start":495.285,"end":518.994,"text":"部長一分鐘的時間喔馬街醫院有受到這個駭客入侵是不是現在有一千多萬筆的病患個資說被外洩我一直強調是說源頭管理非常重要因為如果說這者個資被詐騙集團掌握的話詐騙集團非常好騙他可能就直接打電話給某某某譬如說打電話給邱先生嗎"},{"start":520.02,"end":536.317,"text":"你的身份證字號幾號你的出生年日日幾號我都已經先跟你講完之後我再來去取信於你之後要詐騙就相對容易了解那我想請教2023年速發部成立的時候也說要打造資安國家隊"},{"start":537.543,"end":558.041,"text":"就到現在2025年了我們發生了這個馬街醫院說這個病患各自外洩有沒有掌握到情況他到底是馬街醫院他的醫療他的這個防火牆或是說相關的這個治安不夠完整還是說這是普遍各醫院的狀況是這樣子 我們衛福部一聽到這個消息那當然爆發張機啦 就馬上"},{"start":560.063,"end":579.501,"text":"跟司法部去做最好的一個處理所以後來就沒有那個後來就沒有再有衍生那之前的內容因為馬屑醫院說他們已經進入司法程序所以也不變說明好那我們掌握的情況因為衛福部是主管機關各單位你現在各下面的醫院"},{"start":580.492,"end":595.057,"text":"因為我覺得醫院的病患個資其實是非常詳細的是不是所以說我們有沒有去現在來了解譬如說請衛護署發佈然後了解一下說我們現在各醫院大家到底有資安的狀況我們的衛護部"},{"start":598.458,"end":616.37,"text":"資金是非常強的那跟事發部合作已經跟各個關鍵找了60家的重要的醫院已經找了嗎對已經開過了很早就開過大概兩個禮拜前就開過會跟他們講要怎麼防護而且有一套防護的機制這醫院被害是什麼時候被害的應該是二月"},{"start":620.652,"end":645.825,"text":"之前就應該是被害了啊但是發現的時候我們就開始進行一連串的補救措施以及緩緩未來更多影響好那是不是可以請給本席相關的資料沒問題好不好你們做了因應馬街醫院被害之後做了什麼樣的一個加強管制的措施開會的後續的一個結論已經要求各醫院增加這個治安的一個防範沒問題這個我們都有加強謝謝沒問題謝謝謝謝孟海委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1198,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時21分）邱部長，不好意思，沒讓你坐下來，那就麻煩你，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題，委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，直接切入重點。大家都關心我們全國的急重症醫療量能，但是昨天爆發新聞。我看到昨天有個新聞指邱泰源拍板護理跨科支援指引定案，要研議、要出來，今天馬上又講說護理人員認為跨科支援指引根本是犧牲權益啊！部長，怎麼會有那麼大的落差？現在會提出跨科支援指引嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，感謝委員的垂詢。是這樣子：我們定期跟台灣醫療工會討論，我想那裡有醫師、有護理師……"],["洪委員孟楷：我都理解，不用講背景說明啦！"],["邱部長泰源：他們也是……"],["洪委員孟楷：現在請針對問題、回答問題，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：他們提議由護理的角度提出一個指引。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以你昨天有沒有拍板確定？"],["邱部長泰源：我當然拍板要研議啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["邱部長泰源：要把他們的版本拿來，他們也很客氣，說希望提兩個版本給我們參考。相對的，醫療工會其實也很能代表基層護理的心聲啦！所以我們一定要虛心地感謝他們願意提出版本。他們也花了很多精神，所以我們站在衛福部的立場……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以版本也還沒有看到？方向是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：版本昨天應該還沒有提出來，是不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：要不要看一下昨天的新聞怎麼跑馬，以及今天早上護理師怎麼樣強烈抗議？他強烈譴責衛福部侵害護理權益，要求撤回跨科指引跟颱風天出勤指引。"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，我們因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：結果到現在還搞不清楚？"],["邱部長泰源：不是，護理界有幾個團體，有護理師公會、護理醫學會、護理工會，還有昨天我們定期見面的台灣醫療工會。而台灣醫療工會提出來一點，是他們不希望用院方的角度做床的分配，因為這樣會有點影響到護理。護理人員願意提出這樣的意見，我們當然要研議啊！當然，我也知道，他們裡面也有人想……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席剛剛已經講了……"],["邱部長泰源：工會是反對這個的啊！工會……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席剛剛已經講了……工會是反對，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：工會反對嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：工會反對？"],["邱部長泰源：對，所以我也可以找工會來好好溝通一下啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["邱部長泰源：總是要解決問題嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：工會代表什麼？工會代表的就是護理人員嘛！是最基層、第一線的護理人員。"],["邱部長泰源：醫療工會也是啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：那你們今天在做這樣的指引的時候，沒有找護理人員來討論！你昨天一直推說是所謂的定期會，但定期會擺明了……"],["邱部長泰源：那些都是護理人員喔！"],["洪委員孟楷：這個定期會擺明了就是沒有找相關最基層的護理人員參與嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：那些都是護理人員。都是基層護理人員，而且都是非常……"],["洪委員孟楷：不然你怎麼會講……不是啦！部長，你剛剛已經講了，就是護理人員反對、工會是反對，那你們定期開會的時候沒有納入這樣的聲音？"],["邱部長泰源：不是，不同的團體嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：因為有很多工會，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：護理工會這個團體是反對，醫療工會這個團體是提出來的，這樣有四、五個團體……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，部長，我只請教一下，現在有沒有轉彎的方向？是不是又轉彎了？"],["邱部長泰源：哪一方面轉彎？"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有要推出所謂的跨科支援指引？"],["邱部長泰源：如果適當、而且護理界都有共識的話，我們當然樂觀其成，因為總比院方來調床……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以後續會不會找相關工會，大家來討論？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：會找嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們會把所有相關護理團體統統找來討論啊！這個沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，部長，你的承諾：找所有相關團體來討論？"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，這個可以來討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：另外，我們一直在談三班護病比，其實前兩天總預算覆議的時候，我也特別跟你請教。針對其中的三班護病比，你現在都一直講要獎勵先行嘛！對不對？你回答了很多委員。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但我說實在話，給醫院時間補足人力、習慣護病比的政策也不要一步到位，好像馬上就要開罰，重點是現在大家的獎勵到底有沒有一個公平、公允的標準？我覺得這是很重要的事情啊！"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們先問幾個問題，第一，三班護病比現在是以醫院來作單位，還是以病床來作單位？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：整體。"],["洪委員孟楷：整體醫院嘛！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：整體平均。是一般急性病房。"],["邱部長泰源：是一般急性病房。"],["洪委員孟楷：過去很多護理人員一直跟你強調、一直討論的是，一家醫院裡面有各個不同的狀況，如果用整個醫院的人力和整個醫院的病床數作平均的話，那個數據無法如實地呈現，時段也好、醫院也好，都會有一個落差。那醫護人員有沒有……您是司長嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：蔡司長。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：蔡司長。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，蔡司長，之前有沒有接收過護理人員一直跟你反映，其實高低護病比互相稀釋，可能會造成不公允的情況，所以希望能夠用病床作為基礎單位公告三班護病比？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：關於三班護病比，住院有兩大類病床，一類是一般急性病床，一類是特殊病床……"],["洪委員孟楷：隔離病床？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：而我們現在的三班護病比指的是急性一般病床，全國大概有10萬床。這類病床其實有不同科別，但是在討論裡面，可行跟理想……當然可行跟理想總是有一個距離啦！但這是經過7個版本、半年的填報、6次系列的協商，當然沒有完全讓大家都滿意，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有辦法達成共識？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：對，但是有共識啊！共識就是先上路，也就是有一個整體性的……"],["洪委員孟楷：是護理師的共識還是醫院的共識？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：都有、都有。"],["洪委員孟楷：還是衛福部的共識？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：沒有，有護理團體、有醫院……"],["洪委員孟楷：司長，很實在話講……部長，剛剛司長特別提到另外一個部分，也是我想請教的，就是所謂的病床其實分急性一般病房以及隔離病房、特殊病房……"],["邱部長泰源：特殊病房。"],["洪委員孟楷：那你這個三班護病比其實是沒有把特殊病房給放進去的？沒有放進去計算的？那代表什麼？代表有一些護理人員可能也要負責到這個部分，但是沒有加入計算，那麼某種程度上也增加了護理人員的負擔啊！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：三班護病比的最大目的就是因應整個醫院在一個負循環裡面，我們怎麼讓負循環變成正。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實我強調的重點，部長……"],["蔡司長淑鳳：當然，問題都有優先次序嘛！現在醫院裡有補助的其實是一般急性病床，而且它也是護理人員最大宗的，因為一般急性病房大概是10萬床，特殊病房是4萬床，設備、人力標準都不一樣……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，其實我今天點出的這個問題，我們還是要一起面對。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是說現在我們看到的是希望能夠有更多護理人員投入，大家都有熱情、有想法、是南丁格爾，不是一而再、再而三去壓榨，或者讓他們負擔更重、更沉重。"],["邱部長泰源：當然啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：他們是南丁格爾，但不要把他們當成塑膠、麻糬，持續揉捏、持續壓榨。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：護理人員，尤其像今天我們看到台灣護師醫療產業工會，他們也發出強烈新聞稿要求的時候，我們是不是真的也應該聽聽護理人員的意見？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題，我們會請他們來溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後，部長，我用一分鐘的時間談，馬偕醫院有遭到駭客入侵……"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在是不是說有一千多萬筆病患個資被外洩？我一直強調源頭管理非常重要。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果個資被詐騙集團掌握的話，詐騙集團非常好騙，他們可能直接打電話給某某某，譬如說打電話說邱先生嗎？你的身分證字號幾號、你的出生年月日幾號。我都已經先跟你講完、取信於你之後，要詐騙就相對容易。"],["邱部長泰源：了解。"],["洪委員孟楷：那我想請教，2023年數發部成立的時候也說要打造資安國家隊，結果到現在2025年了，發生了馬偕醫院病患個資外洩案，有沒有掌握到情況？到底是馬偕醫院的防火牆或相關資安不夠完整，還是說這是各醫院普遍的狀況？"],["邱部長泰源：是這樣的，我們衛福部一聽到這個消息，當然包括彰基，就馬上跟數發部做最好的處理，所以後來就沒有再衍生。之前的內容，因為馬偕醫院說已經進入司法程序，所以也不便說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那你們掌握的情況呢？因為衛福部是主管機關，對於各單位、下面各醫院……因為我覺得醫院病患的個資其實是非常詳細的，是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：對，一定要保護。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以衛福部現在有沒有去了解……"],["邱部長泰源：有，我們有制定一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：譬如說會同數發部了解一下現在各醫院大家的資安狀況到底如何？"],["邱部長泰源：有的，我們衛福部的資訊室是非常強的，跟數發部合作，已經跟各個關鍵、找了60家重要醫院……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經找了嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：對，已經開過了、很早就開過，大概兩個禮拜前就開過會，跟他們講要怎麼防護，而且有一套防護機制。"],["洪委員孟楷：馬偕醫院是什麼時候被駭的？"],["邱部長泰源：應該是二月……之前應該就被駭了，發現的時候，我們就開始進行一連串的補救措施以及防範未來更多影響。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那是不是可以給本席相關資料？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：包括你們因應馬偕醫院被駭之後，做了什麼樣的加強管制措施……"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["洪委員孟楷：開會的後續結論……"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["洪委員孟楷：以及要求各醫院增加的資安防範。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題，這些我們都有加強。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝孟楷委員、謝謝部長。","請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","羅智強","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","劉建國","陳培瑜","楊曜","王義川"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00005"}}},{"id":"159173","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159173","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f33819e847c8435080aae3c1a04a00b1b75917ee1f59655e5befde21dfa2b36bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:04:49 - 13:21:00","影片長度":"00:16:11","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【如遇加開院會本次會議取消，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T13:04:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T13:21:00+08:00","duration":971,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.48596875,"end":4.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.34659375,"end":6.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.82721875,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.12471875,"end":60.392843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.66284375,"end":73.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.12909375000001,"end":107.84534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.14909375,"end":115.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.11409375000001,"end":117.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.42596875000001,"end":120.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.41284375000001,"end":124.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.93971875000001,"end":127.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.08596875,"end":142.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.29971875,"end":148.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.00346875,"end":151.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.82159375,"end":201.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.50471875000002,"end":155.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.97409375,"end":205.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.85534375,"end":234.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.09971875000002,"end":274.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.07659375000003,"end":290.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.14159375,"end":292.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.22159375,"end":293.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.67284375,"end":297.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.58784375000005,"end":299.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.37221875,"end":301.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.50284375,"end":303.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.01721875000004,"end":321.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.96409375,"end":325.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.30534375,"end":326.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.22034375000004,"end":337.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.37909375000004,"end":339.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.35784375000003,"end":341.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.24346875000003,"end":345.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.54284375000003,"end":348.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.23846875000004,"end":405.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.16909375,"end":358.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.07159375000003,"end":361.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.82409375000003,"end":433.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.27534375000005,"end":442.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.57346875,"end":443.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.07971875000004,"end":451.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.04471875,"end":532.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.4709687500001,"end":540.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.0603437500001,"end":581.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.74159375,"end":585.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.40784375,"end":603.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.00409375,"end":628.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.16909375,"end":629.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.9622187500001,"end":637.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.5053437500001,"end":639.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.72034375,"end":638.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.56409375,"end":645.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.55096875,"end":641.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.4365937499999,"end":651.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.6428437500001,"end":656.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.99159375,"end":664.3490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.6615937500001,"end":663.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.01159375,"end":664.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.3490937500001,"end":665.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.4965937500001,"end":685.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.8247187500001,"end":673.4109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.74284375,"end":682.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.28284375,"end":683.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.57784375,"end":709.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":708.47721875,"end":715.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.02971875,"end":711.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.4597187500001,"end":714.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.1215937500001,"end":723.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.64784375,"end":727.3940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.9890937499999,"end":728.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.9172187500001,"end":729.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.74409375,"end":733.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.53721875,"end":730.1615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.93346875,"end":732.6084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.7053437500001,"end":734.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":734.3972187500001,"end":736.3715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":736.8103437500001,"end":739.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.89471875,"end":742.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.8897187500002,"end":745.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.88909375,"end":782.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.45284375,"end":800.3784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":800.3784687500001,"end":804.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":803.63534375,"end":804.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":804.51284375,"end":812.3428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":811.09409375,"end":811.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":812.25846875,"end":813.4734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":812.83221875,"end":819.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.4809687500001,"end":839.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":824.08784375,"end":824.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":834.71909375,"end":835.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":838.83659375,"end":850.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":847.40909375,"end":847.7803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":849.1809687500001,"end":850.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":850.1428437500001,"end":867.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":867.20346875,"end":869.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":870.30846875,"end":915.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":915.90471875,"end":920.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":920.8659687500001,"end":929.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":925.75971875,"end":926.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":929.35409375,"end":948.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":948.3047187500001,"end":953.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":952.8272187500002,"end":965.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":966.2934687500001,"end":969.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":968.1665937500002,"end":969.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":970.00596875,"end":971.9634687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.369,"end":23.884,"text":"那個主席可以一分鐘會議詢問我很快速講一下今天有看到我們那個委員會有裝了這個監測器那特別這個有趣的是有這個分貝的部分那我剛剛查的資料就是50分貝以下會讓人家感覺這個寧靜舒適心情愉悅"},{"start":26.926,"end":47.754,"text":"好那呃再來就是說70分貝好這個以上呢就會造成大家心情煩躁神經緊張然後無法專心影響學習好所以我們呃這個可能也要注意一下官員在這個70分貝以上能不能專心聽委員的槌尋好這個也是很重要的那當然"},{"start":48.835,"end":63.19,"text":"這個長期處於70分貝以上也會造成大家這個情緒的焦躁所以久而久之可能大家也是需要去看心理醫師或者去做如果你不會紓壓的話沒有來我那邊吧台喝咖啡的話可能也會造成一些影響"},{"start":64.011,"end":84.419,"text":"那再來重要的是你要80分貝 85分貝這些真的會造成聽力的傷害所以我剛剛很注意在看這個分貝問題因為很多的時間是超過80分貝所以我在這邊特別提醒這個不管是委員會還是立法院這個職業安全衛生設施規則300條之一"},{"start":87.98,"end":115.738,"text":"這個勞工超過平均85分貝雇主要採取聽力保護措施那當然我們已經有做這個監測的這個系統但是我們並沒有做這個監測危害的控管都沒有防護這個防音防護的這個配備也沒有譬如說耳塞啦或者是有人在控管那個麥克風我們如果太近聲音太大的時候就你就可以稍微調整一下那當然健檢OK那成效評估改善這個可能後續要做我想以上做這個提醒"},{"start":116.519,"end":126.874,"text":"非常感謝朝偉給我這個時間把這個問題點出來好 那我現在接下來要來進等一下喔 不好意思"},{"start":134.247,"end":147.685,"text":"我接下來要來質詢首先我有三 今天有三個問題那我先講一下這個加熱菸的部分當然那個部長跟那個健保署署長部長我想先"},{"start":149.087,"end":176.859,"text":"因為對部長跟國建署我不太清楚國建署是不知道你們大家好不知道國建署是因為裝傻還是不夠專業因為他們說他們沒有做這個菸捐年度統計的資料所以呢我們辦公室呢就只好自己找資料然後我們自己幫國建署製作了這個非常清楚的表格那我們來看一下這幾年菸捐的收入99年的"},{"start":177.459,"end":205.083,"text":"燕捐將近348億到了去年只剩下264億那我們這個兩個年度來比較一下就是少了84億之多但是民國99年的燕價跟113年來相比這個價格其實是低了很多那燕捐的比例卻大幅的增加但是收入卻大減到原因何在部長其實可以想一想"},{"start":205.882,"end":233.064,"text":"因為這個吸菸比例並沒有減少但抽脂菸的人口很多都轉為去抽這個加熱菸了那加熱菸的部分就是基於一些很奇妙的人還有很奇妙的原因所以很奇妙的現在抽加熱菸是不用繳菸捐的所以衛福部的政策不僅"},{"start":235.186,"end":257.521,"text":"不是在意志吸這個加熱菸喔反而是在鼓勵大家去吸加熱菸那這個因為齁這個錢啊都進了這個加熱菸這個走私販的口袋了所以呢唯一損失的是健保的挹注所以我們石崇良署長他就要哭哭了"},{"start":258.502,"end":274.444,"text":"那按照這個國建署的觀念用健康風險來抑制吸菸吸加熱菸的人口如果這個推論他是真的那麼未來我們國人因為吸這個吸菸的健康風險反而會增加"},{"start":275.205,"end":290.173,"text":"因為健保支出會增加嘛那未來這個健保也會被拖垮那醫療品質會下降所以這個到底是不是你們衛福部的德政這個我們就是一直都打問號啦所以我今天特別製作這個表格給大家提醒"},{"start":291.212,"end":317.984,"text":"注意這個問題是謝謝好那再來部長你沒有要發表一下意見嗎那個當然謝謝當然我們努力之下齁那個車淹的比例是有降低啦齁那剛剛您所重視的我們也通過淹害防治法那在加熱淹的部分也一直在審查齁那這個部分我想我們一定按照"},{"start":320.523,"end":332.671,"text":"那重點是那個菸捐的收入不要讓他滿天亂飛我們那個我們按照一切按照規定來處理那希望當然"},{"start":334.613,"end":340.039,"text":"眼間增加這也是兩難的事情反正我就覺得一些奇妙的原因不應該是落到走私的業者這個是最重要的我們這個錢要收回來"},{"start":350.652,"end":372.433,"text":"好那接下來一個重要的問題我們討論一下就是有關於這個台東醫療資源缺乏當然是我們台東長久的痛那如果說民眾遇到這種急性腦中風急性冠心症心導管的問題那台東有七家醫院那到底就是可以必須要送到哪裡"},{"start":373.334,"end":390.921,"text":"那看來看去呢我們也就是只有就是說送到這個台東馬街因為台東沒有中度急診的醫院只有一家台東馬街是急重症醫院那其他六家都是一般的這個急診那依照這個緊急醫療能力的分級的規定"},{"start":392.161,"end":416.368,"text":"急重症的醫院必須要在24小時提供外科、內科、骨科、兒科、麻醉科、神經科、神經外科、婦產科等等的這些專科醫師的緊急的照會服務所以我們台東馬街醫院它就等於我們整個重症醫療的核心我想這個大家都知道的"},{"start":417.789,"end":442.329,"text":"台東馬街呢希望就是說他們希望把這個院內老舊的這個醫護宿舍改建那因為現在我們目前的宿舍我有去看過這個屋齡已經40年了大家可以想像40年的屋齡馬上就會知道他的這個防火防震都不符合現在的標準而且我去看了還四個人擠在一間"},{"start":444.232,"end":460.664,"text":"那如果說原地那馬街他們有自備有準備經費那如果說原地打掉重建那重建期間的這個銜接過程會有很多在這個台東我們馬街醫院就是說醫護發生這個他們會發生這個住宿的問題"},{"start":463.866,"end":488.641,"text":"那再加上就是說台東馬街因為要充實這個醫療設備所以今年他們還要蓋這個癌醫的大樓那在這個整個建樓的過程當中預期會發生就是說可能民眾要去就醫停車的問題就會嚴重不足那再來就是說病患跟家屬當然就是說他這樣就會很不方便"},{"start":489.341,"end":513.537,"text":"那最近我跟這個莊瑞雄委員呢我們都非常關心台東馬街宿舍改建還有這個停車場用地的問題喔莊瑞雄委員他已經在上個禮拜呢院會質詢的時候有提到這件事情那台東馬街尋找的用地雖然是國產署的可是畢竟衛福部是主管機關所以我今天要在這裡特別提醒喔"},{"start":513.817,"end":541.398,"text":"因為台東馬街對於這個台東醫療服務量的那麼重要那麼這件事情我和莊惠雄委員我們一定絕對會大力的支持還有促成那在2月9號的時候我看莊委員呢我們在台東馬街就是說有現場會看了這個去看了宿舍跟停車場等等的這些的現況那"},{"start":542.859,"end":550.422,"text":"就是說昨天我們服務處也陪同了這個馬街醫院跟國產署針對這個用地的問題來做這個協商那我想協商的結果其實還滿正面的所以"},{"start":558.246,"end":580.464,"text":"如果這個馬街如果可以找到合適用地的時候是非常需要衛福部針對醫院改建宿舍跟停車場這件事情在公共性、政策性還有必要性這三個方面給予這個肯定跟支持的評價那我想了解一下部長對你對這件事情的支持的立場應該沒有問題吧"},{"start":583.016,"end":606.845,"text":"那個報告委員,真的非常感謝委員關心我們台東的一個醫療費用,不是醫療,醫療的水準過去也協助了很多醫療的一個提升的計畫,所以我們藝界都很感謝台東馬街的確是我們重中之重,因為也感謝馬街醫院有宗教的精神"},{"start":607.685,"end":632.833,"text":"很多很多的優秀的人才 都到那邊服務那也受到台東當地大家的居民的一個支持特別在那個村委員也給予很大的支持那在護理醫護的宿舍的確是非常的老舊他們台東馬街不是沒有錢啦 是沒有地啊所以我們如果能夠政府來改善"},{"start":633.673,"end":656.415,"text":"那個醫護的試射當然是我是求之不得昨天的協調其實已經狀況還不錯怎麼樣拜託我們都可以去拜託能夠讓他趕快讓醫護的試射完成所以就是確定的時候你們趕快對於這個剛剛講的只要我們衛護部能夠做的我們一定全力以赴當然停車的空間也非常重要因為有時候在看病真的"},{"start":657.596,"end":681.438,"text":"不要停車停到掛號的輪到你都過了我想那個就是說謝謝部長那後面這個三個方面的這個肯定評價就拜託你了那之後就是說接下來的這個跟台東縣政府的一些募領回饋的這個機制我們我也會協助去協調"},{"start":682.819,"end":699.145,"text":"那就最後一個問題我很快也很重要就是說剛剛大家關心的這個偏鄉醫護人力短缺的問題當然這工作環境待遇還有這個三病互併比的這個落實都是改善護理工作環境的這個很關鍵的一個問題那"},{"start":703.007,"end":721.636,"text":"其實之前部長有講過說護理師的薪水7萬元這句話抱歉我從來沒有講過護理師的薪水7萬元那是媒體以及記者會所承認我們今天出來的是網站那自己去看網站各醫院的一個內容他其實也會看到最低"},{"start":722.316,"end":743.347,"text":"也比較高的這樣的好那沒有關係我修正一下齁那或許媒體我從來沒有講過這句話那我們從媒體上我從來沒認得多少錢它是夠的齁但是那是媒體看的這樣部長今天給你大大的澄清因為我永遠覺得醫護的薪水必須要再提高那就接下來請給我機會因為我沒有時間了我趕快講齁"},{"start":746.788,"end":766.074,"text":"當然這個媒體這樣寫7萬元這個數據當然部長也講嚴重失真那但是我講一下我們台東護理師工作經驗1到5年的薪資只有台東馬街超過6萬塊而已其他都沒有那其他這個公立醫院大概都5萬多"},{"start":766.914,"end":781.42,"text":"那這個數據包括公職護理的薪資也相對比較高可是其他私立醫院的部分只有4萬元甚至我們台東在某家的醫院的護理師他職業一年的護理師薪水只有3萬多"},{"start":783.496,"end":797.461,"text":"你們有知道這個訊息嗎只有三萬多這就是我們城鄉落差的一個差異所以我理解每一家的醫院它的複雜度是不一樣但是職業的護理師薪資只有三萬多"},{"start":799.562,"end":812.201,"text":"有合理嗎你說這個台東這一家嗎對那個是一個宗教型的醫院那它的loading也許真的是沒有那麼大就好像你"},{"start":816.306,"end":836.017,"text":"診所來講他的薪資可能也沒有辦法像醫院那麼高因為大家都留不住嘛所以自然而然那個loading就是變成這樣子所以我想講的是我知道你們會有一些理由但是我只是講我是覺得就是說我們一直在強調就是說要留住這個偏鄉人才的情況我覺得衛福部其實這個時候你們就應該要干預這個市場"},{"start":839.379,"end":860.033,"text":"第一其實像這種燈塔型的醫院我們都會健保都會特別的補助而且希望能夠提高護理的待遇這個我們會去協助那到底要怎麼留住偏鄉的護理人才就是說當然大家都知道就是說住院護理費的偏鄉加成的機制"},{"start":860.974,"end":879.034,"text":"好那我要再提一下這個加成在106年的時候比例從3%提高到15%那這個但是我們都之前也有講過啦說到底這些加成的點數有多少是真正實際反映到這個護理師的薪水待遇上好因為我們都知道護理"},{"start":880.635,"end":902.369,"text":"這個護理費用當然有包括到一些儀器設備還有其他等等的不一定只是護理的這個薪資但是我想就是說這一項加成的名稱對偏鄉護理師是很不公平甚至講嚴重一點說這樣的名稱對偏鄉護理師他是一個不正義的名稱因為偏鄉住住院護理費"},{"start":903.069,"end":920.202,"text":"加成15%的感覺好像是增加經費但是實質到護理師偏鄉護理師的這個口袋裡其實根本就不是這樣所以這個加成我希望可以有一定比例反映到這個偏鄉護理師的薪資上面"},{"start":921.683,"end":947.041,"text":"這個一定比例 我想今天重點你們一定框一個比例到裡面那在這個15%當中一定提撥一定的比例作為這個護理師的這個額外加急的部分那去年我在去年那個預算審查的時候我們也有提案所以這個部分可能請會後是不是那個健保署再跟我們說明一下辦理的情況大概我想這邊"},{"start":948.402,"end":967.164,"text":"提的就是說怎麼樣提高這個誘因還有框那個比例請你們好好我們該給護理師的就一毛錢也不少那他的護理會怎麼樣去分配有一定的比例這個要清清楚楚公開透明我要取得大家的一個共識這樣子好再麻煩你們兩週內好沒問題謝謝謝謝謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1151,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時4分）主席，可以用1分鐘會議詢問嗎？好，我很快速地講一下，今天我看到本委員會裝了監測器，特別有趣的是測分貝的部分，我剛剛查了資料，就是環境音量在50分貝以下會讓人家感覺寧靜舒適，心情愉悅；70分貝以上就會造成大家心情煩躁，神經緊張，無法專心，影響學習，所以我們可能也要注意一下官員在70分貝以上能不能專心聽委員的垂詢，這個也是很重要的。當然長期處於70分貝以上的環境，也會造成大家情緒焦躁，久而久之，可能大家也需要去看心理醫師或者去紓壓，如果你不會紓壓，沒有來我那邊的吧檯喝咖啡的話，可能也會造成一些影響。","再來，重要的是，80分貝、85分貝真的會造成聽力的傷害，所以我剛剛很注意在看分貝的問題，因為很多很多的時間是超過80分貝，所以我在這邊特別提醒所有的人，不管是委員會還是立法院，職業安全衛生設施規則第三百條之一規定，勞工處於音量超過平均85分貝的工作場所，雇主要採取聽力保護措施。當然我們已經有做一個監測的系統，但是我們並沒有做監測危害的控管，都沒有，防音防護的配備也沒有，比如說耳塞，或者是有人在控管麥克風，我們靠太近，聲音太大的時候，就可以稍微調整一下，當然健檢OK，至於成效評估及改善，可能後續要做。以上做這個提醒，非常感謝召委給我時間把這個問題點出來。","現在接下來要來質詢。我今天有三個問題，我先講一下加熱菸的部分，要問部長跟國健署署長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["吳署長昭軍：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：大家好。我不太清楚國健署是因為裝傻還是不夠專業，因為他們說他們沒有做菸捐年度統計的資料，所以我們辦公室就只好自己找資料，然後我們自己幫國健署製作了非常清楚的表格，我們來看一下這幾年菸捐的收入，99年的菸捐將近348億，到了去年只剩下264億，那我們把這兩個年度來比較一下，就是少了84億之多，但是民國99年的菸價跟113年來相比，價格其實是低了很多，菸捐的比例卻大幅增加，但是收入卻大減，原因何在？部長其實可以想一想，因為吸菸比例並沒有減少，但抽紙菸的人口很多都轉為去抽加熱菸了，加熱菸的部分，就是基於一些很奇妙的人，還有很奇妙的原因，所以很奇妙地，現在抽加熱菸是不用繳菸捐的，所以衛福部的政策不僅不是在抑制吸加熱菸，反而是在鼓勵大家去吸加熱菸。因為這個錢都進了加熱菸走私犯的口袋了，所以唯一損失的是對健保的挹注，所以我們石崇良署長他就要哭哭了。按照國健署的觀念，用健康風險來抑制吸加熱菸的人口，如果這個推論是真的，那麼未來我們國人因為吸菸造成的健康風險反而會增加，因為健保支出會增加，未來健保也會被拖垮，那醫療品質會下降，所以這個到底是不是你們衛福部的德政？我們就是一直都打問號，所以我今天特別製作這個表格提醒大家，希望大家注意這個問題。"],["邱部長泰源：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：部長，你沒有要發表一下意見嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然，謝謝。當然在我們努力之下，抽菸的比例是有降低，那剛剛您所重視的問題，我們也通過菸害防制法，在加熱菸的部分也一直在審查，這個部分，我想我們一定加緊時程來做。"],["陳委員瑩：重點是菸捐的收入不要讓它滿天亂飛。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一切按照規定來處理，當然菸捐增加這也是兩難的事情，表示我們抽菸的人是不是比較多。"],["陳委員瑩：不是，一些奇妙的人、奇妙的原因，就請你們特別好好處理。"],["邱部長泰源：不應該是落到走私的業者手裡，這個是最重要的。"],["陳委員瑩：沒錯，沒錯。我們這個錢要收回來。","好，接下來一個重要問題，我們討論一下，就是有關於臺東醫療資源缺乏，當然是我們臺東長久的痛，如果民眾遇到急性腦中風、急性冠心症、心導管的問題，臺東有七家醫院，他到底可以送到哪裡？看來看去，也就只有送到臺東馬偕，因為臺東沒有中度急診的醫院，只有一家臺東馬偕是急重症醫院，其他六家都是一般的急診。依照緊急醫療能力分級的規定，急重症的醫院必須要在24小時提供外科、內科、骨科、兒科、麻醉科、神經科、神經外科、婦產科等專科醫師緊急的照會服務，所以臺東馬偕醫院就等於臺東整個重症醫療的核心，我想這個是大家都知道的。臺東馬偕希望把院內老舊的醫護宿舍改建，目前的宿舍我有去看過，屋齡已經40年了，大家可以想像一下40年的屋齡，馬上就會知道屋子的防火、防震都不符合現在的標準，而且我去看了，還4個人擠在一間。如果原地重建，馬偕他們有準備經費，如果原地打掉重建，那重建期間的銜接過程會有很多臺東馬偕醫院的醫護發生住宿的問題，再加上臺東馬偕要充實醫療設備，所以今年他們還要蓋癌醫大樓，在整個建樓的過程當中，預期會發生民眾就醫停車位嚴重不足的問題，病患跟家屬就會很不方便。","最近我跟莊瑞雄委員都非常關心臺東馬偕宿舍改建和停車場用地的問題，莊瑞雄委員已經在上個禮拜院會質詢的時候提到這件事情。臺東馬偕尋找的用地雖然是國產署的，可是畢竟衛福部是主管機關，所以我今天要在這裡特別提醒，因為臺東馬偕對於臺東醫療服務量能那麼重要，那麼這件事情，我和莊瑞雄委員一定絕對會大力支持及促成。在2月9日，我和莊委員在臺東馬偕現場會勘了宿舍跟停車場的現況，昨天我們服務處也陪同了馬偕醫院，跟國產署針對用地的問題來協商，協商的結果其實還滿正面的，所以如果馬偕可以找到合適用地的時候，是非常需要衛福部針對醫院改建宿舍跟停車場這件事情，在公共性、政策性及必要性這三個方面給予肯定跟支持的評價，那我想瞭解一下，部長，你對這件事情支持的立場應該沒有問題吧？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，真的非常感謝委員關心我們臺東的醫療水準，過去也協助了很多醫療提升的計畫，所以我們醫界都很感謝。臺東馬偕的確是我們重中之重，也感謝馬偕醫院有宗教的精神，很多很多優秀的人才都到那邊服務，也受到臺東當地居民的支持，特別是陳委員也給予很大的支持。醫護的宿舍的確是非常老舊，臺東馬偕不是沒有錢，是沒有地，所以如果政府能夠改善醫護的宿舍，當然我是求之不得。"],["陳委員瑩：昨天的協調其實狀況還不錯。"],["邱部長泰源：要怎麼樣拜託，我們都可以去拜託，能夠趕快讓醫護的宿舍完成。"],["陳委員瑩：所以就是確定的時候，你們趕快對於這個剛剛講的公共性、政策性及必要性的評價，給予肯定。"],["邱部長泰源：只要我們衛福部能夠做的，我們一定全力以赴，包括停車的空間也非常重要，因為有時候看病要停車，停到掛號的人輪到號都過了，還看不到病。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝部長，那後面這三個方面的肯定評價就拜託你了。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定全力以赴。"],["陳委員瑩：接下來就是跟臺東縣政府的一些睦鄰回饋的機制，我也會協助去協調。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：最後一個問題也很重要，就是剛剛大家關心的偏鄉醫護人力短缺的問題，當然工作環境、待遇，還有三班護病比的落實，都是改善護理工作環境很關鍵的問題，其實之前部長有說護理師的薪水7萬元這句話，造成……"],["邱部長泰源：抱歉，我從來沒有講過護理師的薪水7萬，那是媒體以及記者會所說的，我們呈現出來的是網站，是自己去看網站公布的各醫院的內容，其實也可以看到最低，也有比較高的。"],["陳委員瑩：這樣的，好，那沒有關係，我修正一下，或許媒體……我們從媒體上……"],["邱部長泰源：我從來沒有講到這句話，我從來也沒有認為多少錢是夠的，那是媒體刊的。"],["陳委員瑩：好，部長，今天給你大大的澄清。"],["邱部長泰源：感謝給我機會澄清，因為我永遠覺得醫護的薪水必須要提高，再提高。"],["陳委員瑩：接下來請給我機會，因為我沒有時間了，我趕快講。媒體這樣寫，7萬元這個數據當然部長也講了，嚴重失真，但是我講一下，臺東護理師工作經驗在1到5年的薪資，只有臺東馬偕超過6萬塊而已，其他都沒有，其他公立醫院大概都五萬多，包括公職護理的薪資也相對比較高，可是其他私立醫院的部分只有4萬元，甚至臺東某家醫院執業一年的護理師薪水只有三萬多，你們知道這個訊息嗎？只有三萬多，這就是城鄉落差的一個差異，所以我理解每一家醫院的複雜度是不一樣，但是執業的護理師薪資只有三萬多，部長，這樣合理嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：你說臺東這一家嘛？"],["陳委員瑩：對。"],["邱部長泰源：那是一個宗教型的醫院，它的loading也許真的是沒有那麼大，就好像以診所來講，護理師的薪資可能也沒有辦法像醫院那麼高。"],["陳委員瑩：因為大家都留不住嘛，所以自然而然那個loading就是變成這樣子啊。","所以我想講的是，我知道你們會有一些理由，但是我只是覺得，我們一直在強調要留住偏鄉人才，我覺得衛福部其實這個時候你們就應該要干預這個市場。"],["邱部長泰源：有。其實像這種燈塔型的醫院，健保都會特別地補助，而且希望能夠提高護理的待遇，這個我們會去協助。"],["陳委員瑩：那到底要怎麼留住偏鄉護理人才？當然大家都知道住院護理費的偏鄉加成機制，我要再提一下這個加成在100年的時候，比例從3%提高到15%，但是我們之前也有講過，到底這些加成的點數有多少是真正實際反映到護理師的薪水待遇上？因為我們都知道，護理費用當然有包括一些儀器設備，還有其他等等，不一定只是護理的薪資，但是這一項加成的名稱對偏鄉護理師很不公平，甚至講嚴重一點，這樣的名稱對偏鄉護理師來說，是一個不正義的名稱，因為偏鄉住院護理費加成15%的感覺，好像是增加經費，但實質到偏鄉護理師口袋裡的其實根本就不是這樣。所以對於這個加成，我希望可以有一定比例反映到偏鄉護理師的薪資上面。我想，今天的重點是你們一定要匡一個比例到裡面，在這15%當中提撥一定比例作為護理師額外加給的部分。我在去年預算審查的時候也有提案，所以針對這個部分，可能會後請健保署再跟我們說明一下辦理的情況，大概就是針對我這邊提的，也就是怎麼樣提高誘因還有匡那個比例，請你們好好努力。"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們該給護理師的，就一毛錢也不能少，護理費怎麼分配有一定的比例，要清清楚楚、公開透明，取得大家的共識。"],["陳委員瑩：好，麻煩你們兩週內處理。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。","接續我們請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","羅智強","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","劉建國","陳培瑜","楊曜","王義川"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00005"}}},{"id":"159172","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159172","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fe8892785791380562f58198bcf8270c175917ee1f59655e5854671cd304e1f855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:55:44 - 13:03:29","影片長度":"00:07:45","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:55:44+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T13:03:29+08:00","duration":465,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.840968750000002,"end":34.759718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.92846875,"end":35.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.01284375,"end":35.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.89034375,"end":36.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.25721875,"end":37.409093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.923468750000005,"end":40.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.54346875,"end":42.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.893468750000004,"end":51.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.12409375,"end":63.210968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.565343750000004,"end":96.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.85971875,"end":98.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.68221875,"end":142.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.72596875000002,"end":146.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.18534375000002,"end":146.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.77596875,"end":165.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.43971875,"end":198.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.25721875000002,"end":212.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.26346875000002,"end":233.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.45846875,"end":236.70284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.22596875000002,"end":239.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.16221875000002,"end":254.38784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.43846875000003,"end":254.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.48909375000002,"end":254.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.60284375,"end":256.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.02471875000003,"end":261.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.88034375,"end":282.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.67034375000003,"end":291.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.15846875,"end":296.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.24284375,"end":291.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.67721875,"end":292.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.04784375,"end":303.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.12721875,"end":305.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.00034375,"end":327.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.19409375000004,"end":310.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.51659375,"end":321.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.76971875000004,"end":321.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.72659375,"end":327.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.92909375,"end":343.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.97721875,"end":364.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.80784375,"end":348.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.42721875,"end":353.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.25784375,"end":358.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.88534375,"end":366.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.09596875,"end":367.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.97346875000005,"end":373.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.56784375,"end":374.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.84596875,"end":394.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.22659375,"end":400.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.60971875,"end":402.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.29721875,"end":415.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.62534375,"end":408.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.67596875000004,"end":408.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.89534375000005,"end":408.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.61159375000005,"end":416.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.75909375000003,"end":435.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.47534375000004,"end":424.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.20346875,"end":437.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.26221875000005,"end":437.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.86971875,"end":447.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.55596875000003,"end":452.28096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.98971875,"end":463.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.86971875,"end":465.42659375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":28.401,"end":35.907,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們是不是有請我們董事長以及我們國土署的吳署長董事長吳署長有請委員好 次長好次長我想說今天透過質詢想跟次長聊一下國土計畫"},{"start":48.24,"end":68.84,"text":"那當然我剛剛聽到了說國土計畫法展延六年這件事結果被當作凍結或是刪除預算的理由我這件事我因為之前處理預算我沒有在內政委員會我有點嚇到我想說國土計畫法的展延當時不是三個政黨大家都有高度的共識認為說這部分會讓農民憂慮"},{"start":74.083,"end":88.987,"text":"還有一些溝通解釋的一個必要所以我們來展演用六年的時間來換取更多把國務計劃法要處理的層次把它處理得更清晰而且更不會去侵害到任何人的一個權利三黨共識的東西結果拿來要去動你們的衣裳像剛才那樣上街等你們糟蹋所以我覺得這樣不好所以我覺得說"},{"start":99.129,"end":118.083,"text":"國土計劃法這件事情大家還是可以好好來談那我想跟市長直接聊一下我們在於去年那完成了國土計劃法的修法除了展延六年之外基本上我們在第八條也訂了一個很重要的一個條文也就是直轄市跟縣市主管可以擬定國土計劃的時候辦理鄉村地區的整體規劃"},{"start":121.725,"end":141.863,"text":"並是實際需要擬定鄉村地區的計劃納入直轄市縣市的國土計劃並得以覆測方式定之所以這個我們認為說它就是一個鄉村規劃把它入法入在國土計劃那既然這樣的話我們也知道說現在很多的一個鄉村很多村子村子的部落它的問題是什麼第一沒有建地"},{"start":147.601,"end":159.951,"text":"縱使有間地也因為辭分,因為繼承的關係,然後辭分到了沒有辦法處理,所以縱使年輕人返鄉,你想說好,我們一個六個,我們跟他六個的住地,回來故鄉,他在六個,他看我找到間地,然後去那買房子,沒那麼大,"},{"start":165.535,"end":170.599,"text":"他應該要去破住買房子,他一樣是返鄉,但是他要去破住因為破住那裡,有人要去住,如果蓋了沒建地,沒人要去住所以他沒辦法買到房子這個問題就在這個地方那我們一直在想說,鄉村的一個,我們要推的就是要有什麼鄉村的三生要有生活、生產、生態所以你一個地方,你既然要讓它到期你除了住的功能,你也要有消費的功能"},{"start":191.734,"end":208.813,"text":"你也想要做行貨的功能,這樣這個增加也比較實在,環境的增加,可是我們現在的鄉村就是事不相,要建地沒建地,路地,道路用地,小條車開不進去,要做生意也不會做,現在連一個增加的最好那間的電販車都要跟你們說什麼困難,"},{"start":213.562,"end":235.815,"text":"所以這個就是鄉村的一個現實那唯一能解套就是我們這次修法的鄉村整體規劃所以我具體建議次長啦等一下我剛才說了這麼多話就跟你說但是我先具體開宗明義既然國土計畫展延六年我們應該要訂一個六年計畫你們應該要把台灣所有的部落未來需要辦理鄉規"},{"start":237.436,"end":250.906,"text":"辦理鄉村規劃的時候他要有一筆規劃費你們應該要抓一個六年計劃把錢都找出來鼓勵每一個政咖每一個部落每一個政頭都要開始走這個鄉村的規劃請次長來回應一下"},{"start":255.723,"end":282.042,"text":"還是署長都可以好 感謝委員 其實委員說的就是現在政客所在的真正要聽就是說就算要回家 差不多都會遇到土地氣氛根本站不起來所以我們大概現在的做法是這樣有些地區確實它如果存在著這樣的一個返鄉但是有相歸不得的壓力那其實鄉村第一整理規劃它就會跟農村社區重劃就會整合"},{"start":282.782,"end":308.13,"text":"那過去的重劃大概都是找一塊乾淨的樹地先去做處理但是我們也考慮到現有的聚落它的公社也必須要提升所以未來會類似跨區重劃的概念如果舊的聚落有人願意土地提供出來做公社他也可以到新的社區裡面住的話那我們也可以同步改善舊社區那就是遷村的概念它直接造一個新的地方但是古坡落裡面公社買得到這會改善公社人抓進來"},{"start":310.411,"end":334.572,"text":"公社也可以做進去,那這樣也可以改善舊聚落的公社那新的開發區也可以容納舊社區的人那這樣其實大家一起共同把它長大那這樣才能解決現在鄉村的這個做法那第二個就是說我們現在其實每年都鼓勵各縣市政府各公所來提那到目前大概有70幾個鄉鎮公所都有來提案了"},{"start":334.892,"end":358.677,"text":"那我們希望這個速度能夠加快就是我們經費的部分我們會全力來支援那但是我們會鼓勵更多的鄉鎮公所來提案除了鼓勵之外就具體的啦我們要經費都先抓出來讓他們可以馬上實施事實上他們困難點是在於要回營啦就我們現在我們新港鄉我們有一個板陶村他們現在就要進行他現在是要走這個鄉規定義說到期要重新要重圍"},{"start":364.946,"end":393.698,"text":"那要蓋50%的印章很辛苦耶尤其是發動的人要接受很多不同的雜音所以他有這個意志去推動所以這部分公家應該要蓋進第二個就是說你們在辦理箱規的時候應該要我剛剛講的你除了他的生活以外你要有生產生產面所以你每一個箱規你在規劃的時候你必須要把這個枕頭要有多少的商業機能"},{"start":395.278,"end":399.703,"text":"所以他就要有這個商業做生意的用途,這都要到外面出來,這就是整套的,要這樣整套的,你整個國土區要在這六年的一個檢討期間才會走得有意義,才會讓那個政客,因為我們開始讓他去做一些規劃,"},{"start":416.862,"end":425.585,"text":"市長有空可以來我們布袋豪美禮,我們布袋豪美禮,他在二十年前他就走這個,對,就中圍了,他現在要撥大條,他要去住宅,做行李,條理分明,市長我們整個就這樣下去走"},{"start":437.79,"end":442.793,"text":"不要讓他變成說你鄉村也好,我們現在不要說大都會啦白白都在政科,也有說到這裡要結帳,村子那裡要擺帳,擺帳到年齡都沒了這樣就不行,好不好,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1265,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時56分）謝謝主席，是不是有請董次長以及國土署的吳署長？"],["主席：有請董次長及吳署長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長好。次長，我想透過今天的質詢與次長聊一下國土計畫。剛剛我聽到國土計畫法展延六年的這件事被當作凍結或刪除預算的理由，因為之前處理預算時，我不在內政委員會，現在聽到之後有點嚇到！關於國土計畫法的展延，當時三個政黨不是都有高度的共識？因為這個部分會讓農民感到憂慮，而且還有一些溝通解釋的必要，所以我們認為必須要展延，用六年的時間把國土計畫法需要處理的層次處理得更清晰、更不會侵害到任何一個人的權利。三黨有共識的東西，結果拿來凍結你們的預算，就像剛才那樣糟蹋你們，我覺得這樣不好！關於國土計畫法這件事，大家還是可以好好的來談。","我想與次長直接聊一下，去年我們完成了國土計畫法的修法，除了展延六年之外，基本上，我們在第八條訂了一個很重要的條文，直轄市與縣（市）主管可以擬定國土計畫的時候，辦理鄉村地區的整體規劃，並視實際需要擬定鄉村地區的計畫，納入直轄市、縣（市）的國土計畫，並得另以附冊方式定之。我們認為這就是將鄉村規劃入法在國土計畫中，既然是這樣的話，現在有許多鄉下部落的問題是什麼？第一，沒有建地。縱使有建地也會因為持分、因為繼承的關係，而持分到了無法處理，因此縱使年輕人返鄉，譬如我們嘉義六腳的子弟回到故鄉，但是在六腳是否有辦法找到建地、是否有辦法在那裡買房子？沒辦法啊！一樣是返鄉，他必須要到朴子去買房子，因為朴子有人蓋房子，六腳因為沒建地就沒有人蓋房子，所以他們沒辦法買到房子，問題就是在這裡。我們一直在想鄉村要推的就是鄉村的三生，要有生活、生產、生態，一個地方除了要住的功能之外，也必須要有消費的功能、也必須要有能夠工作的功能，這樣才能算是一個完整的鄉村，但是我們現在的鄉村就是四不像，要建地沒建地、道路用地小，車子開不進去、要做生意也活不下去，現在或許連鄉下最後的一間「柑仔店」可能都要向你說再見！這就是鄉村的現實狀況，唯一能解套就是這次修法的鄉村整體規劃。因此，我具體的建議次長，既然國土計畫展延六年，我們就應該要訂定一個六年計畫，針對臺灣所有的部落，未來辦理所有鄉村規劃時要有一筆規劃費，你們應該要抓一個六年計畫，把錢都找出來，鼓勵每一個鄉村、每一個部落、每一個村莊都要開始進行鄉村整體規劃。請次長來回應一下，還是署長都可以。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，其實委員講的都是現在鄉下地方真正的痛處，就算是要回去蓋房子，差不多都會遇到土地持分的問題，根本蓋不起來。"],["蔡委員易餘：是。"],["吳署長欣修：所以我們現在的做法是這樣，有些地區確實存在著這樣一個返鄉但有鄉歸不得的壓力，那鄉村地區整體規劃就會跟農村社區重劃整合。過去的重劃都是找一塊乾淨的素地先去處理，但是我們也考慮到現有的聚落它公設也必須要提升，所以未來會類似跨區重劃的概念，如果舊的聚落有人願意把土地提供出來做公設，他也可以到新的社區住的話，那我們也可以同步改善舊社區。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，那就是遷村的概念，它直接造一個新的地方……"],["吳署長欣修：部分啦，但是舊部落裡面的公設也可以一起改善……"],["蔡委員易餘：公設也放進來……"],["吳署長欣修：公設也可以做進去，這樣也可以改善舊部落的公設，新的開發區也可以容納舊社區的人，這樣大家一起共榮讓它長大，這樣才是解決現在鄉村壓力的做法。第二個就是我們現在每年都鼓勵各縣市政府跟各公所來提案，到目前大概有七十幾個鄉鎮公所都有來提案，我們希望這個速度能夠加快，就是經費的部分我們會全力來支援，而且我們會鼓勵更多的鄉鎮公所來提案。"],["蔡委員易餘：除了鼓勵之外就是要具體把經費都先抓出來，讓他們可以馬上實施。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：事實上他們的困難點是在於要蓋章，像現在我們新港鄉有一個板頭村，他們現在就要進行鄉規，等於說都市要重劃，那要蓋50%的印章，很辛苦耶！尤其是發動的人，要接受很多不同的雜音，那要很有意志去推動……"],["吳署長欣修：所以說不要私辦，讓公家來辦。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這部分就是公家要介入。第二個就是說你們在辦理鄉規的時候，應該要像我剛剛講的除了它的生活以外，你要有生產面，所以每一個鄉規你在規劃的時候，必須要把這個村莊需要有多少的商業機能，也就是要有做生意的用地，這都要把它劃出來，這就是整套的。你要走整套的，整個國土計畫法在這六年的檢討期間才會走得有意義啊！才會讓鄉村開始去做一些規劃。","我覺得次長有空可以來我們布袋好美里，我們布袋好美里在20年前就……"],["吳署長欣修：農村社區重劃。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，就有重劃了，現在那邊第一路大條，第二那裡的房子有住宅的和做生意的，這樣條理分明，事實上我們的鄉村應該這樣下去進行。"],["吳署長欣修：是啦。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們現在先不要說大都會，就一樣都位在鄉村，只有這邊「結市」，剩下卻「敗市」，「敗市」到連人都沒了。這樣就不行，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員指教，我們會照委員的指示來處理，預算的部分我們也會趕快編列，請大院支持我們。謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員。","下一位請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159171","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159171","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fbdcc016511a181db2f58198bcf8270c175917ee1f59655e52f620ca07494474b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:42:22 - 12:54:35","影片長度":"00:12:13","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:42:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:54:35+08:00","duration":733,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.085968750000003,"end":28.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.96346875,"end":27.149093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.92096875,"end":30.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.50721875,"end":30.524093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.94534375,"end":36.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.91971875,"end":36.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.95346875,"end":40.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.27409375,"end":40.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.21034375,"end":40.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.69971875,"end":40.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.71659375,"end":40.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.12159375,"end":41.610968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.610968750000005,"end":41.627843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.21784375,"end":48.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.681593750000005,"end":53.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.21659375,"end":54.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.937843750000006,"end":57.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.97971875,"end":62.282843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.19409375,"end":64.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.03346875,"end":66.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.88534375,"end":69.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.60659375,"end":71.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.45846875000001,"end":74.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.10784375,"end":76.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.65596875,"end":78.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.42784375000001,"end":81.53721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.91284375000001,"end":81.08159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.79034375,"end":92.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.11346875000001,"end":104.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.64784375,"end":111.86159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.45221875,"end":113.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.25784375,"end":114.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.15221875,"end":117.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.59471875000001,"end":119.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.28221875000001,"end":122.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.09596875000001,"end":124.36596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.68659375000001,"end":125.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.64846875,"end":126.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.67784375000001,"end":128.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.81659375,"end":132.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.55034375,"end":134.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.31784375,"end":140.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.63721875000002,"end":143.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.97471875000002,"end":151.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.99159375000002,"end":144.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.38784375,"end":156.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.93471875,"end":160.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.78221875,"end":161.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.72284375,"end":163.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.14034375,"end":166.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.88659375,"end":170.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.86909375000002,"end":175.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.95721875,"end":177.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.40846875,"end":177.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.72471875000002,"end":183.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.51284375,"end":186.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.51221875000002,"end":188.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.73159375,"end":188.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.92971875,"end":190.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.22034375,"end":193.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.12721875000003,"end":195.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.18596875,"end":197.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.43471875,"end":198.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.97034375,"end":200.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.07971875,"end":203.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.89784375000002,"end":207.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.40784375,"end":208.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.43284375000002,"end":211.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.11596875,"end":213.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.72721875000002,"end":218.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.47346875000002,"end":221.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.71784375000001,"end":223.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.60784375,"end":225.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.03784375,"end":226.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.32034375,"end":228.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.42971875,"end":230.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.79659375000003,"end":235.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.04034375,"end":238.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.99784375000002,"end":239.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.22971875000002,"end":244.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.50284375,"end":247.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.36346875,"end":249.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.32096875000002,"end":250.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.46846875000003,"end":252.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.15596875000003,"end":255.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.73784375000002,"end":257.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.45471875000004,"end":261.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.62721875,"end":262.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.21346875,"end":264.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.06971875,"end":266.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.02721875000003,"end":267.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.37721875,"end":268.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.44471875,"end":270.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.09409375,"end":272.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.29659375,"end":271.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.35971875,"end":274.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.21159375,"end":276.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.03409375,"end":278.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.76784375,"end":280.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.74659375000005,"end":282.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.70409375,"end":283.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.25659375000004,"end":288.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.40784375000004,"end":291.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.96846875,"end":293.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.06096875000003,"end":303.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.80659375000005,"end":303.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.35471875,"end":305.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.37971875,"end":307.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.67471875,"end":310.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.89784375,"end":312.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.41659375,"end":321.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.95534375,"end":323.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.04784375,"end":326.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.24971875,"end":331.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.40096875,"end":332.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.26159375000003,"end":335.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.56909375000004,"end":350.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.80034375,"end":341.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.81721875,"end":341.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.96909375,"end":342.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.10409375,"end":342.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.12096875000003,"end":342.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.30659375000005,"end":342.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.64409375,"end":343.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.83346875,"end":357.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.57534375,"end":350.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.59534375000004,"end":357.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.76409375000003,"end":362.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.93284375,"end":363.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.04596875000004,"end":367.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.63596875,"end":369.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.03221875,"end":371.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.93909375000004,"end":375.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.05659375000005,"end":377.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.79034375000003,"end":380.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.74784375,"end":381.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.02596875,"end":384.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.35909375,"end":385.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.55284375,"end":387.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.64971875000003,"end":388.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.13471875000005,"end":390.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.09221875000003,"end":391.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.03721875,"end":395.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.32784375,"end":397.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.74096875000004,"end":398.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.07409375000003,"end":400.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.38596875,"end":403.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.61346875000004,"end":405.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.39784375000005,"end":407.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.22034375000004,"end":411.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.57409375000003,"end":413.53596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.22784375000003,"end":414.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.67909375000005,"end":416.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.74221875,"end":418.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.10471875,"end":419.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.96534375000005,"end":420.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.93971875000005,"end":424.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.26846875,"end":425.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.04034375000003,"end":431.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.94659375000003,"end":435.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.38034375,"end":438.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.28721875,"end":440.46846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.83971875000003,"end":444.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.22721875,"end":446.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.67846875000004,"end":448.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.46284375000005,"end":452.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.25971875000005,"end":455.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.41534375000003,"end":462.43971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.94159375000004,"end":469.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.20221875000004,"end":471.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.72096875000005,"end":473.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.10034375000004,"end":476.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.05784375,"end":479.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.71596875000006,"end":476.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.86346875000004,"end":478.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.47096875000005,"end":478.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.36096875000004,"end":482.62221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.47909375,"end":481.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.41534375000003,"end":492.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.11971875,"end":485.22096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.79034375000003,"end":486.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.80721875,"end":488.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.17346875000004,"end":492.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.44346875,"end":494.01284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.54034375000003,"end":502.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.50221875000005,"end":494.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.09159375,"end":508.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.40721875,"end":512.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.03534375,"end":513.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.72284375,"end":516.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.7397187500001,"end":514.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.68034375,"end":517.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.9584687500001,"end":527.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.44721875,"end":522.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.98721875,"end":526.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.8428437499999,"end":530.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.73721875,"end":534.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.20909375,"end":540.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.1540937500001,"end":536.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.58784375,"end":546.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.6965937500001,"end":551.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.50596875,"end":557.3784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.68221875,"end":558.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.7622187500001,"end":560.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.4834687499999,"end":561.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.96846875,"end":570.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.6772187500001,"end":563.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.40596875,"end":571.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.1609687499999,"end":577.4428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.08409375,"end":579.0459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.0459687499999,"end":579.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.9740937500001,"end":588.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.05846875,"end":580.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.9809687500001,"end":592.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.77409375,"end":591.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.59659375,"end":593.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.26721875,"end":595.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.0390937500001,"end":600.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.2578437500001,"end":605.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":605.80971875,"end":606.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":606.8728437500001,"end":606.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.92346875,"end":610.3490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.57284375,"end":611.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.30659375,"end":612.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.6103437500001,"end":620.7609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.2934687500001,"end":617.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.7865937500001,"end":622.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.4272187500001,"end":633.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.36221875,"end":636.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":637.28159375,"end":639.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.8928437500001,"end":642.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.79971875,"end":644.4365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.49971875,"end":649.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.3897187499999,"end":649.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.26284375,"end":649.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":649.8872187500001,"end":652.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":652.75596875,"end":654.8484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.17346875,"end":654.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.42221875,"end":662.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.93596875,"end":664.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":663.33659375,"end":680.7178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.85346875,"end":677.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":681.1228437500001,"end":692.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":692.2265937500001,"end":700.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.4115937500001,"end":714.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.06284375,"end":722.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.54721875,"end":719.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.83409375,"end":719.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":723.0234687500001,"end":725.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":726.46596875,"end":732.96284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":26.092,"end":30.295,"text":"現在處長還有署長好 請次長跟署長抱歉 委員哪一個署長國獨署國獨署 國獨署長對 今天很多位署長委員好你們好 我們來談一個很多人關心不過應該是一個很嚴重的造謠跟謠言經理怎麼"},{"start":56.164,"end":61.688,"text":"內政部開了一個記者會說因為藍白凍結了租金的補貼所以導致可能有7萬5千戶的住戶租金補貼會斷催而且可能11月以後就沒辦法發放這是個謠言嗎 是不是你們弄錯了市長還是署長"},{"start":79.485,"end":100.83,"text":"你們消息也沒有弄錯還是故意造謠跟委員報告我們的計算方式是因為大院凍結了本部住宅基金41.47億那如果這個基金相關的補貼如果沒有辦法在這個會期順利被解凍那麼我們擔心我先給你看一下當初三次"},{"start":106.811,"end":134.03,"text":"凍結跟刪除的這個條文 請看一下 來左下角請你唸一下這個條文左下角我框起來那個 雲第七款第二項第三目 來你從那邊開始唸跟我們全國民眾看你到底是造謠還是你們不認識字來 這個預算 這個預算是由台灣民眾黨提案雖然要凍結一部分的預算 可是他先排除了什麼"},{"start":135.376,"end":161.019,"text":"住宅政策跟住宅計畫之推動的計畫也就是你剛講的蘇星的補貼那是刪除的部分不是動體的部分對嘛所以第一個他沒有被那是刪除的部分是補包含你到底是有辦法嗎還是故意跟人家亂說署長跟次長應該不只是認識是水準要很高吧把這個條文再看把這個提案的內容再看一下第一個你們說的"},{"start":162.759,"end":187.915,"text":"你們說的住宅政策就是你所謂的租金的補貼先排除也就是一毛錢都沒有刪對不對這是我自己寫的條文啊你們為什麼把我的條文亂扭曲呢因為它是刪除不是凍結所以在刪除的時候就已經沒有這個嘛就是這個租金補貼已經被排除了嘛所以第一個它不會被凍到第二個下面這個你來練後來要凍結對不對"},{"start":192.247,"end":218.585,"text":"凍結41億好 這個也很重要凍結的是什麼是國土計畫法這個修正裡面你們沒辦法讓它如期的推動本來馬上要做對不對後來是不是推完了這個六年所以那時候我不是問部長你是一步是沒有整個推動過程事先沒有規劃然後也沒有要去溝通沒有因地制宜到後來不負責任"},{"start":219.562,"end":244.397,"text":"四不一沒有 我跟國倉委員都問喔所以你如果不負責你要不要下台因為要你做一個說明嘛所以這個動解是要做什麼叫你針對四不一沒有 欸是沒有一步國土計畫法你延宕這個事情這個條件怎麼寫 來最後一段怎麼寫三個業內跟立法院內政委員會提出專案報告同意以後就可以動之"},{"start":247.723,"end":269.814,"text":"這個跟租金補貼前後有什麼關係第一個這個條文寫的清清楚楚租金補貼一毛錢都沒有刪第二個當節的事國土計劃法修正案而且更重要的清清楚楚寫三個業內人來報告所以次長跟署長你們是聽到底下還是聽到底下要造謠嗎你這個我現在就問一個最簡單的"},{"start":275.598,"end":277.488,"text":"凍結不是刪除啊都已經講你三個月內來報告啊"},{"start":279.81,"end":307.37,"text":"是不是 你現在什麼 你們不準備來報告嗎還是剩餘錢不要跟委員報告就是說我們一定會努力爭取相關的預算的解凍那預算的解凍基於現在大院的規範這個預算的解凍是在內政委員會小組討論就可以委員會討論即可還是要到大院討論即可其實我們目前不清楚這是第一個第二個我們在討論的是市長 市長看您下午的提案內容怎麼會到院會去呢"},{"start":308.717,"end":326.044,"text":"你再唸一次最後一行唸一下最後一行我們要更新的是預算法最後的決定預算法預算法最後送出的決定可能是在大院要做報告我們目前不清楚為什麼到大院做報告市長你再看一下提案內容沒有叫你到院會提案內容叫你到內政委員會你找去院會做什麼你是不滿意還是故意要曲解"},{"start":336.598,"end":350.821,"text":"相關的報告最後到目前為止我們接到的訊息是最後還是要送大院在討論所以我們非常感謝內政委員會的協助我們也感謝委員的承諾所以你的意思市長目前的規範是市長你對著全民講你意思是這筆凍結案內政委員會三個月內過了不算喔照你講是不是這樣"},{"start":358.163,"end":377.271,"text":"是嗎 欸你明確跟全民交代我們現在沒有辦法清楚得到的消息本席在立法院院會提的 通過的條文明明是在內政委員會啊你怎麼扭曲我的條文呢啊如果這樣的話好 OK那這筆就不是只有內政委員會報告喔我們的召集委員在這邊齁好來 我們重新整理一下第一個內政部公布了一個"},{"start":386.584,"end":404.116,"text":"跟事實不符的 要嘛就是造謠嘛要嘛就是不認識 是亂扭曲這個等一下我會把它PO上去給大家看 好不好然後你現在看一下 我還特別提我們全部國庫署的本來預算是多少414.6億這是刪減多少 刪得很少耶2.73而已耶2.73在刪的時候還特別在這個提案裡面清清楚楚"},{"start":412.608,"end":435.61,"text":"民眾的房屋的租屋的補貼一毛錢都不會刪這是第一個第二個凍結了10% 41億這是做什麼事情現在國土計畫上路修改案延誤了是針對這部分來報告沒有叫你報告其他的啊而且裡面寫這麼清楚三個月就已經是可以解凍的啊"},{"start":437.423,"end":447.985,"text":"所以我跟你講喔來還有一個重點你看我們要刪這筆預算跟凍結我們還特別去算過你們講的你說房屋經費一共有多少錢你國土署自己講的31億對不對一年要用372億你把那個凍結的錢都算進去414減掉那個刪除的再把凍結算進去你一整年也夠啊"},{"start":463.971,"end":482.244,"text":"所以你換了三個錯誤啊第一個你把已經被我們很清楚說不會刪的東西也不會凍的租金補貼你把它造謠第一次第二個造謠是什麼凍解的根本跟這個沒有關係而且要你三個月以內就來解凍第三個更嚴重你今天你所需要的三百欸 署長"},{"start":483.464,"end":502.085,"text":"你所需要的370億 怎麼算這筆錢都是夠的 只有你跟我講說影響到7.5萬戶還要到11月 要轉去電機 就沒有了我們做個結論啦 蘇定所以我跟國民報告 第一個這整個提案 我們也覺得很無可奈何因為提案的是國土計畫 結果去動租金補貼"},{"start":503.166,"end":517.476,"text":"這就是第一個我們也覺得很無奈因為國土計畫的本身的經費只有301萬但是你卻去動了租金補貼這是第一個提案的最大問題第二個等一下等一下等一下我會說明一下等一下等一下你講的不對我們這筆預算裡面這個項目就是414億啊就是你國庫所有414嘛對不對所以不是國土計畫的部門第二個我們清楚跟你講有排除"},{"start":530.352,"end":557.202,"text":"排除是只有在刪除那只有刪除的部分是排除凍結沒有凍結沒有而且凍結是三個月趕快來報告就沒有了就解凍了所以凍結的部分才會去含到租金補貼因為國路計畫本身的預算只有301萬所以我才會說這個提案就像我們現在專案報告我們也不曉得是要提國路計畫還是要提租金補貼還是要提道路下水道因為全部都在裡面"},{"start":559.003,"end":576.954,"text":"這個提案內容還講到就是你們國土來來一開始就國土署在國土計畫法修法過程裡面被批評存在一步是沒有的情況你針對這個你跟地方政府沒有好好溝通民眾有餘力嘛所以才拖延了六年開始要實施對不對"},{"start":578.14,"end":601.17,"text":"你們的政治存在更重要的你們沒有達成你們本來設定馬上要上路所以叫你們來報告三個月後三個月內來報告完以後才能解凍是不是這樣這個提案內容這麼清楚結果你們一定要把它誤解成我們做個結論第一個你們很清楚跟民眾講我們也跟民眾講第一個因為當時的提案是本來應該是要動國土計劃法本身的經費結果卻動到了全屬的經費"},{"start":607,"end":616.964,"text":"所以你都不看提案內容就對了凍結是針對國土計劃法引落上路這個事情然後國土計劃本身的經費很少所以才會凍到其他的經費現在的狀況是這樣如果今天只凍國土計劃法相關的預算其實那是很少但是結果卻凍到了全部的經費所以才會有後面這些事情產生"},{"start":634.96,"end":644.192,"text":"這是六年來跑立法院的新聞出了三本預算的書 我在裡面聽到有這種解說一個大的預算項目裡面 要你凍結的項目很清楚"},{"start":645.506,"end":668.215,"text":"而且租屋的這個補貼中心都已經這麼清楚好啦你現在OK那你現在最關鍵是什麼三個月內現在已經開始了好不好你三個月內裡面都跟你講說你趕快針對國有計畫法這個提來以後你這個事實一一就可以解凍了嘛對不對是不是這樣對我們也會有準備所以不要就次長你剛剛講什麼送到宴會你如果真的要送到宴會我們就正式在提案說因為次長"},{"start":668.795,"end":691.584,"text":"要求,所以不是送到委員會解凍你趕快提,趕快解凍,這時候問題都解決了,是不是這樣?我們現在已經提案在做說明了,好,謝謝好,所以本席非常明確的要求,跟民眾講清楚就提案的內容,沒有動到任何的租金的這個補貼第二個你們要來做報告,三個月內在內政委員會就解凍了不要讓人民擔心,好不好"},{"start":692.344,"end":700.386,"text":"我更明確要求你們要過幾天你們行政院長要下箱去先講我還是要跟委員報告不要再繼續造謠國土計劃法凍結的預算應該只有針對國土計劃的預算大概只有310幾萬但是因為你們凍結了40幾億所以他就凍到了其他相關的基金這些相關的基金就跟"},{"start":711.309,"end":732.071,"text":"住宅補貼 租金補貼直接做連結所以他被排除嘛那我還進一步算給你聽你們國庫署自己講你一年需要372對不對你的錢就是明明比372還多啊不要讓遙遠再繼續下去 把他更正好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝張祺凱偉我補充說明一下喔那我剛剛特別跟醫事人員做一下確認啦基本上解凍案"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1204,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時42分）請次長及署長。"],["主席：請次長及署長。委員，請問是哪一位署長？"],["張委員啓楷：國土署。"],["主席：請國土署吳署長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：你們好。我們來談一個很多人關心卻是一個很嚴重的謠言，前一陣子內政部召開了一場記者會，表示因為藍白凍結了租金的補貼，所以導致可能有7.5萬戶的租金補貼會斷炊，可能在11月之後就沒辦法發放，這是一個謠言嗎？是不是你們弄錯了？次長、署長，你們的消息有沒有弄錯？或是故意造謠？"],["董次長建宏：報告委員，根據我們的計算方式，因為大院凍結了本部的住宅基金41.47億元，關於這個基金相關的補貼，如果沒有辦法在這個會期順利被解凍，我們擔心可能就沒辦法……"],["張委員啓楷：我先讓你看一下當初凍結及刪除的條文，請看一下！請你念一下左下角的條文！左下角，我匡起來的部分，「爰第七款第二項第三目」，你從那邊開始念，告訴全國民眾，到底是你們造謠或是你們不認識字？這個預算是由台灣民眾黨提案，雖然要凍結了一部分的預算，但是要先排除住宅政策及住宅計畫推動的計畫，也就是你剛剛講的租金補貼。"],["吳署長欣修：那是刪除的部分，不是凍結的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：對嘛！第一個，它沒有被……"],["吳署長欣修：那是刪除的部分，是不包含……"],["張委員啓楷：你到底識不識字？或是故意的？署長或次長應該不只識字，水準應該要很高吧？把這個提案的內容再看一下！第一個，你們說的住宅政策，也就是所謂的租金補貼，必須要先予以排除，所以一毛錢都沒有刪，對不對？這是我自己寫的條文啊！為什麼你們要扭曲我所寫的條文呢？"],["吳署長欣修：所以它是刪除，不是凍結。"],["張委員啓楷：所以在刪除的時候就沒有這個嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["張委員啓楷：租金補貼已經被排除了嘛！第一個，它不會被凍到。第二個……"],["吳署長欣修：是刪除，不是凍結。"],["張委員啓楷：後來要凍結，對不對？凍結41億元，這個也很重要，凍結的是什麼？是國土計畫法的修正，你們沒辦法讓它如期推動，本來馬上就要做了，對不對？後來是不是晚了6年，所以當時我們就詢問部長是一不四沒有，整個推動過程在事先沒有規劃，也沒有要去溝通、沒有因地制宜，到後來就不負責任，一不四沒有！我與國昌委員都問了部長，如果再不負責是否要下台？因為要你做一個說明嘛！所以這個凍結是要做什麼？要你針對四沒有一不、國土計畫法延宕的事情，請看這個條文是怎麼寫、最後一段怎麼寫？3個月內向立法院內政委員會提出專案報告，同意之後就可以動支。請問這個與租金補貼有什麼關係？第一個，這個條文寫得清清楚楚，租金補貼一毛錢都沒有刪。第二個，凍結的是國土計畫法修正案，更重要的一點，寫得清清楚楚：3個月內提出報告。次長、署長，你們是故意要造謠嗎？"],["董次長建宏：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我現在問一個最簡單的，凍結不是刪除啊！都已經講了要你們在3個月內來報告啊！是不是？現在你們是不準備來報告嗎？還是這筆錢不要了？"],["董次長建宏：報告委員，我們一定會努力爭取相關預算的解凍，但是關於預算的解凍，根據大院現在的規範，這個預算的解凍是在內政委員會討論即可或是要到大院討論即可，其實我們目前並不清楚，這是第一個。第二個，我們在討論的……"],["張委員啓楷：次長，看一下我的提案內容，怎麼會到院會去呢？你再念一次最後一行、念一下最後一行！"],["董次長建宏：我們是要依據預算最後的決定，預算送出的最後決定可能是要在大院提出報告，目前我們並不清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：為什麼要去大院做報告？次長，你再看一下！提案內容並沒有要你去院會提出報告、提案內容是要你在委員會提出報告，你去院會是要做什麼？你是不識字或是故意要曲解？"],["董次長建宏：關於相關的報告，到目前為止我們接到的訊息是最後還是要送大院再做討論。我們非常感謝內政委員會的協助、我們也感謝委員的澄清。目前相關的規範是……"],["張委員啓楷：次長，依照你的說法，內政委員會在3個月內通過這筆凍結案也不算數，是不是這樣？是嗎？"],["董次長建宏：我們現在沒有辦法清楚的……"],["張委員啓楷：你這樣要如何向全民交代？"],["董次長建宏：我們現在沒辦法清楚得到的消息是……"],["張委員啓楷：本席在立法院通過的條文明明是在內政委員會提出報告，你怎麼可以扭曲我的條文呢？如果是這樣的話，這一筆就不只是要在內政委員會報告喔！我們的召集委員也在此，來，我們重新整理一下。第一個，內政部公布了一個與事實不符的消息，要嘛就是造謠，要嘛就是不識字、亂扭曲，等下我會po上去給大家看，好不好？你現在再看一下，我還特別提出，原本國土署的全部預算是多少？414.6億元，這次刪減了多少？刪得很少耶！2.73億元而已耶！而且刪除2.73億元，還在這個提案條文清清楚楚的提到，民眾的租屋補貼一毛錢都不刪，這是第一個。第二個，凍結的10%、41億元是做什麼事情？國土計畫上路，修改案延誤了，現在是要針對這個部分提出報告，沒有要你報告其他的啊！而且裡面寫得這麼清楚，3個月內就可以解凍啊！還有一個重點，你看！我們要刪減及凍結這筆預算時還特別計算過，你說房屋津貼一個月要多少錢？國土署自己講的，31億元，對不對？一年需要用372億元，你把那個凍結的錢再算進去，414億元減掉刪除的，再把凍結的錢算進去，一整年也夠啊！所以你犯了3個錯誤，第一個，對於我們已經清楚說明不會刪也不會凍結的租金補貼，你做了第一次的造謠。第二次的造謠是什麼？凍結的部分根本與這個沒有關係，而且要你在3個月內來提出報告就可以解凍。第三個更是嚴重，署長，你所需要的372億元，怎麼算這筆錢都是夠的，現在你告訴我會影響到7.5萬戶，甚至到11月就沒有了。我做一個結論，署長……"],["吳署長欣修：報告委員，第一個，我們對於整個提案也覺得很無可奈何，因為提案的是國土計畫，結果去凍租金補貼，這是第一個我們也覺得很無奈之處。因為國土計畫本身的經費只有301萬元，但是你卻凍結了租金補貼，這是第一個提案的最大問題。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有凍啊！等一下、等一下……"],["吳署長欣修：我也說明一下……"],["張委員啓楷：等一下、等一下，你講的不對。我們這筆預算的項目就是414億元、就是國土署的414億元，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以不是國土計畫的部分，而是國土……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，我已經告訴你有排除，所以你是不識字嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：排除是只有在刪除，只有刪除的部分是排除的。"],["張委員啓楷：凍結沒有。"],["吳署長欣修：凍結沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：凍結沒有，而且是3個月內趕快來報告就可以解凍了。"],["吳署長欣修：所以凍結的部分才會包含到租金補貼，因為國土計畫本身的預算只有301萬元，現在我們也不知道專案報告是要提國土計畫，或是要提租金補貼，或是要提道路、下水道，因為全部都包含在裡面。"],["張委員啓楷：這個提案內容還講到國土署在國土計畫法修法過程中被批評存在一不四沒有的情況，針對這個部分，你們與地方政府沒有好好溝通，導致民眾產生疑慮，所以拖延了六年才要開始實施，對不對？更重要的是你們沒有達成原本馬上要上路的設定，所以才要求你們在3個月內提出報告之後就可以解凍，是不是這樣？這個提案內容這麼清楚，結果你們卻要誤解成……我們做個結論，第一個，你們很清楚的告訴民眾……"],["吳署長欣修：我們是告訴民眾，當時的提案本來應該是要凍結國土計畫法本身的經費，結果卻凍到全署的經費。"],["張委員啓楷：什麼凍到全署的經費？但提案的內容寫得這麼清楚。"],["吳署長欣修：對，也就是凍到全署的經費……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你們都不看提案內容就對了？凍結是針對國土計畫法延後上路的這件事情……"],["吳署長欣修：最後的表決就是要凍這麼多錢……"],["張委員啓楷：今天我要你念的提案內容都已經寫得這麼清楚。"],["吳署長欣修：但是國土計畫法的經費又很少，才會因而凍到其他的經費，現在的狀況就是這樣。如果今天只凍國土計畫法相關的預算，其實是很少的，結果卻凍到了全部的經費，才會有後面這些事情產生。"],["張委員啓楷：我從民國76年開始跑立法院的新聞，出版了3本預算方面的書，還是第一次聽到這種解釋。一個大的預算項目中，要凍結的項目很清楚，而且租屋補貼都已經這麼清楚……"],["吳署長欣修：就是因為凍結金額這麼高啊！"],["張委員啓楷：好，現在你最關鍵的是什麼？3個月內，現在已經開議多久了？之前就告訴你要趕快針對國土計畫法來提出報告，這筆41億元就可以解凍了，對不對？是不是這樣？"],["吳署長欣修：對，我們也會有準備啊！"],["張委員啓楷：次長，剛才你說什麼要送到院會，如果真的是要送到院會，我們就正式提案，因為次長的要求，所以不是送到委員會就可以解凍。如果你趕快提出報告就可以趕快解凍，這時候問題就都解決了，是不是這樣？"],["董次長建宏：我們現在已經要提案說明了，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：本席非常明確的要求，向民眾講清楚，根據提案的內容，並沒有凍到任何的租金補貼。第二個，你們要來做報告，在3個月內來內政委員會提出報告就可以解凍，不要讓民眾擔心，好不好？我在此更明確的要求，過幾天你們的行政院長要下鄉宣講，不要再用錯誤的訊息繼續造謠、不要再繼續造謠。"],["董次長建宏：報告委員，剛才署長已經講了，國土計畫法凍結的預算應該只有針對國土計畫的預算，也就是只有317萬元，但是因為你們凍結了四十幾億元，所以就凍到了其他相關的基金，這些相關的基金就與住宅補貼之租金補貼直接連結。"],["張委員啓楷：所以它被排除嘛！我還進一步算給你聽，國土署自己說一年需要372億元，對不對？你的錢明明就比372億元還多啊！不要讓謠言再繼續下去了，趕快更正，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","我補充說明一下，剛剛特別與議事人員做了確認，基本上，解凍案應該要經過院會才能付委啊！應該是這樣，但是解凍的主體按照提案說明當然是在內政委員會嘛！所以沒有在院會處理的問題。當然各個部會面對解凍案的壓力都很大，但是按照立法院正常的程序，大家行使職權，本來就是要來向委員提出說明，我也相信在大家的充份說明之後，立法委員都不會互相為難，其實要解凍是可以商量的，所以請內政部積極處理。第三，我一定要特別講，大家都不樂見預算案變成太過政治操作的工具，一旦變成政治操作，大家都各說各的、互相抹黑，反而會讓原本可以順利溝通解凍政策的平台失去本來的美意，對大家而言都不是好事，所以我們就回到立法院正常的程序，該溝通說明的就溝通說明，趕快提案、趕快來排解凍，好不好？這樣我們就可以把這個問題解決掉，謝謝。","請王義川委員。王義川委員、王義川委員不在。","請翁曉玲委員。翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員不在。","請蘇清泉委員。蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請何欣純委員。何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","請羅明才委員。羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","下一位請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159170","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159170","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770ff36748d6686a50a12f58198bcf8270c175917ee1f59655e5d354354e2f17e0785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:36:46 - 12:42:11","影片長度":"00:05:25","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:36:46+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:42:11+08:00","duration":325,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":3.8278437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.68471875,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.96284375,"end":4.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.92471875,"end":7.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.03409375,"end":7.3209687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.485343750000002,"end":11.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.227843750000002,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.024093750000002,"end":17.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.04096875,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.512843750000002,"end":25.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.613468750000003,"end":30.726593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.13159375,"end":32.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.329718750000005,"end":34.540343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.11409375,"end":38.134718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.59034375,"end":45.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.66096875,"end":47.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.719718750000006,"end":51.297218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.00596875,"end":64.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.32471875,"end":74.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.80409375,"end":83.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.40596875,"end":89.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.04221875,"end":91.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.06721875000001,"end":94.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.14721875000001,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.34096875,"end":98.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.80034375000001,"end":102.61409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.61409375000001,"end":102.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.63096875000001,"end":102.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.83346875000001,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.02596875,"end":113.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.17346875000001,"end":122.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.91471875,"end":132.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.36471875,"end":135.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.12346875,"end":137.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.20784375,"end":137.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.59596875,"end":137.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.71409375000002,"end":137.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.83221875,"end":137.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.86596875,"end":146.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.54034375,"end":143.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.47659375,"end":152.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.66534375,"end":155.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.70284375,"end":157.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.79534375,"end":164.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.81534375,"end":168.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.66284375,"end":171.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.10534375,"end":174.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.21034375000002,"end":177.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.55159375000002,"end":181.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.79159375,"end":183.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.93471875,"end":183.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.95159375,"end":184.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.01909375000002,"end":189.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.79034375,"end":190.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.32596875000002,"end":193.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.52846875,"end":191.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.27096875,"end":193.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.60409375,"end":196.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.75971875000002,"end":201.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.67034375,"end":205.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.97346875000002,"end":206.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.04096875000002,"end":211.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.03159375,"end":214.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.54596875000001,"end":215.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.97159375,"end":219.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.79409375,"end":225.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.12221875,"end":227.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.05846875,"end":229.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.76721875,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.33659375000002,"end":231.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.14659375000002,"end":239.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.03159375,"end":240.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.46596875,"end":243.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.54159375,"end":242.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.65971875000002,"end":242.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.89596875,"end":243.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.41471875000002,"end":249.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.99221875,"end":250.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.29971875,"end":259.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.49721875,"end":256.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.53471875,"end":265.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.34034375000005,"end":261.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.84221875000003,"end":262.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.45784375,"end":267.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.28471875,"end":278.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.94096875,"end":279.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.27846875,"end":281.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.29909375,"end":295.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.36034375,"end":295.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.76096875,"end":303.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.83159375,"end":304.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.33346875,"end":312.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.25659375000004,"end":311.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.10034375000004,"end":314.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.02409375,"end":315.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.66096875,"end":317.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.14159375,"end":318.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.45784375,"end":322.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.06034375,"end":325.43159375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":2.851,"text":"國土署吳署長台電現在是專總郭專總來台電郭專總有請幾項問題請教白埔產業園區您知道白埔產業園區目前的階段是說要度市計劃變更環評也都通過了"},{"start":25.68,"end":50.749,"text":"那我們希望說這個在北高雄打造一個半導體的生產欄帶那當然這個台積電已經是男子也要設廠那這個百貨產業園區當然是在我的選區那交通方便而且區位這個面積又大大概有七八十公頃那是台積電投資一個非常重要的選擇地點之一但我希望行政流程能夠加快因為他們也都在跟時間賽跑"},{"start":52.085,"end":67.057,"text":"所以當然我們還有其他潛在的競爭的縣市那如果都市計畫變更能夠在貴部的這個協助之下能夠國土部署這邊協助內政部協助那麼快一點的速度再看看能不能在六七月通過這個"},{"start":68.338,"end":84.97,"text":"都是需要變更那他的用力取得就會比較方便那他進駐的意願就會比較強因為我覺得我很橫貧的很客觀去評估各縣市的這個地點那個地點不是因為我的選區的關係我每天都在顧那個電 先問一下電那個 郭山總電沒問題啦"},{"start":92.113,"end":112.501,"text":"那個沒問題沒問題 水也沒問題那有災生水長 我要請出兩名災生水長在那我想請教市長 都市計畫變更什麼時候會完成那個跟委員報告因為現在在公展那公展大概到這個禮拜下禮拜結束結束後我們就緊迫開小組會議來討論"},{"start":114.252,"end":134.86,"text":"在行政流程你們是不是能夠協助不敢叫你們配合能夠協助因為這個對我們是一個非常非常非常重要的一個關鍵當然全台灣各地的都市計畫我們其實都跟各縣市政府積極合作協商那也希望各地方政府就是說他相關應該要補的文件什麼都趕快提供我是怕會影響你的公務或者我會每天打電話給你"},{"start":137.216,"end":154.53,"text":"如果能夠促成的話我想我們都是按照程序我們也會加速那個整個審查過程最重要的是相關的資料能夠完整我們當然就是我想市政府會全力配合市政府也都準備好了只是說相關行政流程也包括這個信修署長署長能夠全力協助因為第一關在你這邊"},{"start":155.931,"end":173.749,"text":"還在讀委會喔 謝謝那另外呢 也是跟吳署長現在相關的這個前面一支四號的道路啊 哇我已經努力了十年了 人生有幾個十年了這條路努力了十年 我看頭髮都白了還好我頭髮沒有少 白了也沒有關係"},{"start":175.276,"end":200.377,"text":"你們能不能讓我頭好不要繼續擺下去一字四號道路是決定年外道路最重要的一條路然後當然碰到失地失地當然他是要評定是國家級失地還是重要失地那權責就是在貴部現在到國家公園署到國家公園署我也召開很多的會議為了這條路前前後後這十年當中十幾年當中我召開大概不下30次"},{"start":201.718,"end":215.688,"text":"也是所有決定鄉親所有決定市民所引頸期盼如果這條路開不出來我想我愧對於我的鄉親我愧對於我的選民他得票率我在決定得票率是68%68%代表說選民對我有很深的期待所以這條路如果沒開成68%的得票率了解跟我們報告"},{"start":232.198,"end":248.393,"text":"這大家都知道中間過程的問題那我們也是希望說這個失地的部分趕快定義清楚平定什麼時候會出爐最後的平定這可能就是看國家公園署這邊的我們請國家公園署就最近加速討論相關的資料能不能給我一個時間明確時間點"},{"start":251.774,"end":278.132,"text":"我還是要先跟國家公務員署再確認或許那個第一個禮拜內我們先回給委員就是說到底我們的期程會是怎麼樣好不好因為我定期都會跟他們開會他們說啊都有在進行但是進行我是覺得因為這邊一年多一年我會跟新任署長我希望說今年上半年能夠定案如果是重要級失利不是國家級失利那他所說的限制比較少那相關的後續的流程進度還能繼續往前推進"},{"start":279.293,"end":303.103,"text":"我會請新任署長加速來討論所以如果平定城這個所謂不是國家以勢力不是這個國家以勢力是重要勢力的話那這條路是不是可以用中央的這個相關的預算來執行他只要能避開這樣的一個問題我想大概在生活圈的審查上面主力就會比較小了"},{"start":304.111,"end":322.242,"text":"那經費的部分呢對 如果他生活圈能夠申請通過大概就可以依生活圈的這個方式來補償來辦理所以貴署也會確定支持在預算方面對我一向遵守發言時間遵守發言時間是一個國會議員基本的素養好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1160,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時36分）謝謝，有請內政部董次長。"],["主席：董次長，有請。"],["邱委員志偉：國土署吳署長。"],["主席：吳署長，有請。"],["邱委員志偉：台電郭專總。"],["主席：台電郭專總，有請。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：次長，有幾項問題要請教。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["邱委員志偉：白埔產業園區，你知道嗎？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["邱委員志偉：目前的階段是要進行都市計畫變更，環評也都通過了，我們希望在北高雄達成一個半導體的生產廊帶，當然台積電已經在楠梓設廠，這個白埔產業園區是位在我的選區，交通方便，而且區位面積又大，大概有七、八十公頃，也是台積電選擇投資的重要地點之一。但是我希望行政流程能夠加快，因為他們也都在跟時間賽跑，況且我們還有其他潛在的競爭縣市，如果都市計畫變更能藉由內政部的協助、國土署的協助，加快速度看看能否在6、7月通過都市計畫變更，它的用地取得就會比較方便，那麼它進駐的意願就會比較強。我很衡平的、很客觀的評估各縣市的地點，不是因為是我的選區的關係，首先是關於電的部分，郭專總，電沒問題吧？"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：沒問題。"],["邱委員志偉：水也沒問題，我已經爭取2座再生水廠在那裡了。請問次長，都市計畫變更什麼時候可以完成？"],["董次長建宏：報告委員，因為現在正在公展，時間是到下個禮拜結束，結束後我們就會盡速召開小組會議進行討論。"],["邱委員志偉：在行政流程的部分，你們是不是能夠協助，不敢要求你們配合，只希望你們能夠協助，因為這個對我們是一個非常非常非常重要的關鍵。"],["董次長建宏：當然，針對全臺灣各地的都市計畫，我們其實都與各縣市政府積極的合作協商，也希望各地方政府盡快將相關要補的文件提供過來。"],["邱委員志偉：我是怕會影響你的公務，否則我會每天打電話給你耶！如果能夠促成的話。"],["董次長建宏：我想我們都是按照程序，但我們也會加速整個審查過程，最重要的是相關資料能夠完整，我們當然就可以趕快討論。"],["邱委員志偉：我想市政府都會全力配合，市政府也都準備好了，只是相關的行政流程也要拜託欣修署長，希望署長能夠全力協助，因為第一關就在你那邊以及土委會，謝謝。","另外也是與吳署長比較相關的問題，茄萣1-4號道路，我已經努力了十年，人生能有幾個十年，為了這條路努力了十年，現在頭髮都白了，還好頭髮沒有少，雖然白了也沒關係，但你能不能讓我的頭髮不要再繼續白下去？1-4號道路是茄萣聯外最重要的一條道路，但這條聯外道路遇到濕地，濕地需要評定是國家級濕地或是重要濕地，權責就是在於貴部。"],["吳署長欣修：現在是國家公園署。"],["邱委員志偉：我也召開過很多次會議，為了這條道路，前前後後的十幾年當中，大概召開過不下三十次會議，這是所有茄萣鄉親、所有茄萣市民引頸期盼的，如果這條路開不出來，我想我會愧對於我的鄉親、我會愧對於我的選民！我在茄萣的得票率是68%耶！次長，68%代表選民對我有很深的期待，如果這條路沒有開成，68%的得票率……"],["吳署長欣修：了解，報告委員，其實大家都知道中間過程的問題，我們也希望濕地的部分趕快定義清楚。"],["邱委員志偉：最後的評定什麼時候會出爐？"],["吳署長欣修：這個可能就是看國家公園署這邊的……"],["董次長建宏：我們請國家公園署最近加速討論相關的資料，好不好？"],["邱委員志偉：能否給我一個明確的時間點？"],["董次長建宏：我還是要先與國家公園署再確認，或許一個禮拜內先回覆委員，到底我們的期程會是怎麼樣，好不好？"],["邱委員志偉：我都有定期與他們開會，他們說都有在進行，但我覺得就是這樣一年拖過一年！"],["董次長建宏：我會告知新任署長。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望在今年的上半年能夠定案，如果是屬於重要溼地，而非國家級濕地，它所受到的限制會比較少，後續相關的流程、進度就能繼續往前推進。"],["董次長建宏：好，我會請新任署長加速討論。"],["邱委員志偉：如果評定結果並非國家級濕地，而是重要濕地的話，這條路是否可以使用中央的相關預算執行？"],["吳署長欣修：它只要能避開這樣的問題，我想在生活圈審查上的阻力就會比較小。"],["邱委員志偉：經費的部分呢？"],["吳署長欣修：如果它在生活圈方面能夠申請通過，大概就可以依照生活圈的方式補助辦理。"],["邱委員志偉：貴署在預算方面也會全力支持？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["邱委員志偉：我一向遵守發言時間。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["邱委員志偉：遵守發言時間是身為國會議員的基本素養。"],["主席：謝謝最準時的邱志偉委員。","接下來請林俊憲委員。林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員不在。","接下來請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159169","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159169","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f3a4cee9c31b7cadb2f58198bcf8270c175917ee1f59655e511b2de8b317ab69f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:29:42 - 12:36:29","影片長度":"00:06:47","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:29:42+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:36:29+08:00","duration":407,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.414093750000001,"end":7.185968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.45596875,"end":8.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.04221875,"end":10.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.62409375,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.68284375,"end":14.087843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.766593750000002,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.52596875,"end":19.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.57221875,"end":65.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.48909375000001,"end":90.61596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.27784375,"end":67.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.54596875,"end":79.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.85221875,"end":93.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.55221875000001,"end":95.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.59409375,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.28534375000001,"end":111.20346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.45659375000001,"end":115.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.89471875000001,"end":118.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.79721875000001,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.85596875,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.12471875,"end":136.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.71096875,"end":131.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.07284375,"end":165.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.35096875000002,"end":180.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.98159375,"end":197.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.33346875,"end":200.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.46846875,"end":197.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.91096875000002,"end":203.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.88096875000002,"end":205.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.15096875,"end":252.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.20471875,"end":211.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.10971875,"end":259.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.03784375,"end":254.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.10909375,"end":256.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.75409375000004,"end":289.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.90971875,"end":313.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.04096875000005,"end":319.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.76596875,"end":325.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.16159375,"end":338.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.85596875000005,"end":373.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.79534375000003,"end":377.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.59221875000003,"end":377.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.91284375000004,"end":377.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.01409375000003,"end":382.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.80659375000005,"end":391.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.49346875000003,"end":390.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.66596875000005,"end":395.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.02409375,"end":396.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.35284375000003,"end":403.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.48346875000004,"end":400.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.99346875000003,"end":405.09846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.59221875000003,"end":405.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.14909375,"end":405.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.00534375,"end":407.49471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.438,"end":13.908,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請我們的胡署長國土署胡署長有請委員好"},{"start":19.785,"end":31.978,"text":"今天大家都是關於新就是有關於就是我們在工藝大廈的充電樁我想在六都尤其是人口建築物比較密集的區域我們的民代通通會發生這樣的問題大概有兩方應見那互相這個分歧"},{"start":36.602,"end":47.907,"text":"好 那我們現在就說大概主要大家關心的是我們整個的修法牛布化就是我們公寓大廈管理條例有關於這個充電樁的設置那麼已經躺了三年可是我想請問一下因為事實上在我們的不管是台北市、新北市在六都裡面它的建築物事實上這個停車位是差很多的"},{"start":63.254,"end":78.527,"text":"有比較老舊的建築物有新的建築物對不對還有有的是平面停車位有的是機械式停車位所以你大概三年前這個修法恐怕已經不符合現在的一個需求"},{"start":80.167,"end":99.773,"text":"所以我想請問一下你們現在到底還要不要繼續推動修法還是說我剛剛講的這個三年前的修法現在會把它做一些修正就是老舊的跟別的新的平面的跟機械的會有一些不同的標準跟規定有沒有這樣的方向"},{"start":100.622,"end":115.064,"text":"跟委員報告的確有就是我們接下來這三個月要去討論密集討論把這個消防安全跟防火區劃的標準如果把它確認了那其實後續包含也會包含將所謂的平面車位跟機械車位到底"},{"start":115.936,"end":136.398,"text":"要怎麼區分它的一個設置的這個標準跟裝備那這些都確認清楚以後我們就要分別落入也包含剛剛講的可能不只公益大家管理條例有可能相關部會的一些消防法規對好那我問就說平面車位它的標準跟"},{"start":137.179,"end":165.76,"text":"机械车位它的标准会不一样那机械车位标准比较严格嘛对不对或者说你未来的法律因为你原来的修法方向是希望能够说我们的管委会不能够去拒绝这个这些电动停车为充电桩的设置那未来会不会有一个区分比如平面车位开放但是呢机械式的还是充分的尊重现行的相关的规定"},{"start":166.977,"end":181.749,"text":"應該這麼說啦如果機械車位在這個消防法規或是我們在後面設計的這個相關的滅火的這個程序上來講的確沒有辦法確保的話那是不是一定要設"},{"start":183.05,"end":203.21,"text":"成這個充電車位那這都可以討論因為我們還是要把這個消防安全就把它納到第一因為否則如果我們機械車位沒有辦法確保的話那譬如說它已經掉到上面去了這台車上結果在上面燒那它能不能在我們現行的消防設備能不能做得到"},{"start":204.171,"end":206.194,"text":"因為這個就牽涉到我們所有住戶的相關的權益還有這個不管你有電動車沒有電動車有電動車當然希望我的這個我的住家或我租的這個地方就是可以做那個充電樁"},{"start":222.473,"end":239.35,"text":"如果没有那个电动车车位的这些祝福就认为说只要我们祝福大家大家拒绝就可以不要做所以我的意思说未来我们是不是比较开放倾向于开放平面式的停车位平面式停车位在这个充电桩部分我们比较加速进行"},{"start":239.87,"end":259.006,"text":"但是在機械式的部分因為它的安全就是充電樁的安全疑慮消防的疑慮會比較高一些那這個部分呢我們就會比較嚴格的把關這樣子這樣的可能性都會一邊考慮因為的確沒有安全的話我們還是不敢開放"},{"start":259.793,"end":265.715,"text":"好那我想請問一下你說最近三個月你們會研擬那請問因為已經已經躺了三年躺了三年那請問一下你們現在預定的修法進度是怎麼樣否則老師說但每個縣市他的指引不一樣我們只要去參加區那個區權會常常吵就是吵這個事情對不對這我們在明代都有這樣的感受所以你們這個你們修法的進度大概你的設定是什麼"},{"start":290.55,"end":311.889,"text":"應該這麼說啦因為這三個月大概就是集中把消防的這個標準消防標準還有防火區劃的標準集中討論出來那它後面就會涉及到我舊大樓如果要達成這樣的消防設備的這個提升那還有這一個防火區劃的這個增設我到底要投入多少成本那這樣其實這個數據出來"},{"start":314.13,"end":338.165,"text":"也會有利於後面的修法讓管委會知道說當我要做的時候會有多少這樣我們去推但是你這個修法顯然看起來今年是不會出來啦這個公益大家管理條例是不會應該這麼說公益大家管理條例是一個方向但是我們後面還有很多的技術標準會持續的往前跟進那如果方向上是確認我們就會跟院再提一個修正版好我先講一下其實"},{"start":338.885,"end":360.938,"text":"我们台北市建管处他有提供一些建议希望能够赶快明确相关的规定那我觉得这部分也希望能够配合比如说像以车位来讲的话比如说那个是靠近比较靠近那个出入口的部分靠近出入口的部分是不是可以这个部分是比较放宽的"},{"start":361.658,"end":390.938,"text":"他就覺得這個因為這個在消防到時候如果真的發生不幸的這個有火災的時候他們比較好來做這個救災像這一部分是不是也可以優先把它放入考慮應該是說可能第一個優先是要就近水源的部分就近水源第二個他可能是一個獨立就旁邊盡量不要有可燃物那這樣的話對第一時間降溫避免延燒可能會是比較正確的做法所以到時候設置說就近水源"},{"start":391.818,"end":404.249,"text":"就近水源可能反而是一個比較重要的一個依據所以他講就近出入口你們再演一次好不好就可能要找消防單位一起來做一個研究這個我們會再努力 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1127,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時29分）謝謝主席，請吳署長。"],["主席：國土署吳署長，有請。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：署長，今天大家都很關心公寓大廈充電樁的議題，尤其六都是人口及建築物比較密集的區域，我們的民代通通會遇到這樣的問題，兩方的意見互相分歧。現在大家關心的主要是整個修法牛步化，公寓大廈管理條例有關於充電樁的設置已經躺了三年，我想請問一下，事實上，無論是在臺北市、新北市或是在六都，建築物的停車位是差很多的，有比較老舊的建築物、有新的建築物，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：此外，有的是平面停車位、有的是機械式停車位，因此三年前的修法恐怕已經不符合現在的需求，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以我想請問一下，你們現在到底還要不要繼續推動修法？或是如同我剛剛講的，針對三年前的修法進行一些修正？也就是老舊的與新的、平面的與機械式的會有一些不同的標準及規定，有沒有這樣的方向？"],["吳署長欣修：報告委員，的確有，我們在接下來的3個月會密集討論，如果能將消防安全與防火區劃的標準確認，後續也會包含像是所謂的平面車位與機械車位到底要如何區分設置的標準及裝備，在這些都確認清楚之後，我們就要分別落入，包含剛剛講的可能不只是公寓大廈管理條例，也可能會有相關部會的一些法規等等。"],["王委員鴻薇：消防法規。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：平面車位的標準與機械車位的標準會不一樣，機械車位的標準比較嚴格，對不對？或者，你原來的修法方向是希望管委會不能拒絕這些電動停車位充電樁的設置，未來會不會有一個區分，譬如平面車位開放，但是機械式車位還是充分尊重現行的相關規定？"],["吳署長欣修：應該是這麼說，如果機械車位在消防法規或是在我們之後設計的相關滅火程序而言，的確是沒有辦法確保的話，是不是一定要設為充電車位，這個都可以討論，因為我們還是要把消防安全納為第一。否則如果機械車位無法確保的話，譬如它已經吊到上面去了，結果這台車就在上面燒，我們現行的消防設備能不能做得到就會有疑慮。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為這個牽涉到所有住戶的相關權益，無論是有沒有電動車，有電動車的住戶當然希望自己的住家或租屋處可以設置充電樁，但沒有電動車的住戶認為只要住戶拒絕就可以不要做，因此我的意思是未來是不是傾向於開放平面式的停車位，也就是在平面停車位的充電樁可以加速進行，但是在機械式的部分，因為充電樁的安全疑慮及消防疑慮會比較高一些，我們對於這個部分就會比較嚴格的把關。"],["吳署長欣修：對，這樣的……"],["王委員鴻薇：我這樣的說法，對吧？"],["吳署長欣修：這樣的可能性都會一併考慮，的確沒有安全的話，我們還是不敢開放。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想請問一下，你說最近三個月會研擬，因為已經躺了三年，請問你們現在預定的修法進度是如何？當然每個縣市的指引不一樣，但我們只要參加區權會常常就會聽到吵這件事情，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：我們民代都有這樣的感受，根據你們的修法進度，目前大概的設定是什麼？"],["吳署長欣修：應該是這麼說，這三個月大概就是集中把消防的標準及防火區劃的標準集中討論出來，後面就會涉及到舊大樓如果要達成這樣的消防設備提升以及防火區劃的增設，到底要投入多少成本，其實這個數據出來也會有利於後面的修法，讓管委會知道當要做的時候……"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道，但是看起來你這個修法顯然在今年是不會出來了、整個公寓大廈管理條例應該是不會……"],["吳署長欣修：應該這麼說，公寓大廈管理條例是一個方向，但是後面還有很多的技術標準會持續地往前跟進，如果在方向上是確認的，我們就會向院再提出一個修正版。"],["王委員鴻薇：臺北市建管處也有提供一些建議，希望能夠盡快明確相關的規定，我希望這個部分也能夠配合，以車位來講，譬如比較靠近出入口的部分是不是可以比較放寬？假設真的不幸發生火災的時候，這個位置是比較容易進行救災，像這個部分是不是也可以優先將它列入考慮？"],["吳署長欣修：應該是說，第一個優先是要就近水源的部分，第二是一個獨立的位置，旁邊盡量不要有可燃物，這樣對於第一時間降溫、避免延燒，可能會是比較正確的做法，所以到時候就近水源可能是一個比較重要的依據。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以它提議就近出入口，你們再研擬一下，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：我們可以一起再做討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：你們可以找消防單位一起研究。"],["吳署長欣修：是，我們會再努力，謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝王鴻薇委員。","下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159168","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159168","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770facd0e799c00284ed0aae3c1a04a00b1b75917ee1f59655e54081f7d117a098d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:55:20 - 13:04:30","影片長度":"00:09:10","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【如遇加開院會本次會議取消，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:55:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T13:04:30+08:00","duration":550,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.493468750000002,"end":13.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.93096875,"end":19.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.16284375,"end":20.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.52971875,"end":23.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.347843750000003,"end":26.777843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.43596875,"end":28.465343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.190968750000003,"end":30.372218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.55784375,"end":30.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.96284375,"end":33.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.47284375,"end":39.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.31596875,"end":41.729093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.032843750000005,"end":44.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.23909375,"end":49.322843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.79534375,"end":50.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.58409375,"end":56.376593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.95034375,"end":60.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.15221875,"end":62.924093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.531593750000006,"end":67.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.46346875,"end":68.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.50534375000001,"end":70.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.68659375,"end":73.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.97721875,"end":74.56784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.25971875,"end":75.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.20471875,"end":76.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.44909375,"end":79.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.00159375,"end":83.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.71409375,"end":85.13159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.05971875,"end":88.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.23221875,"end":89.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.57784375,"end":127.23471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.97284375000001,"end":102.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.64784375,"end":103.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.74471875,"end":105.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.39409375000001,"end":107.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.47534375000001,"end":130.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.20034375,"end":132.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.41096875,"end":135.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.07721875000001,"end":137.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.96721875,"end":138.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.16534375,"end":140.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.86971875,"end":141.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.47284375,"end":143.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.78909375,"end":144.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.32471875000002,"end":146.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.24409375000002,"end":150.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.99471875,"end":152.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.05784375000002,"end":153.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.55971875,"end":153.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.94784375,"end":155.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.45784375000002,"end":168.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.58284375000002,"end":170.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.04221875000002,"end":172.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.05471875,"end":172.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.16846875000002,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.08784375000002,"end":177.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.04534375,"end":178.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.27721875,"end":183.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.52534375000002,"end":187.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.32659375,"end":187.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.37721875000003,"end":187.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.59659375,"end":192.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.67596875,"end":194.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.13971875000001,"end":196.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.09721875000002,"end":198.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.78471875000002,"end":199.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.37534375,"end":201.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.78409375,"end":203.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.91471875000002,"end":211.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.71096875,"end":214.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.35596875000002,"end":220.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.80659375000002,"end":222.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.82721875000001,"end":224.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.04221875000002,"end":227.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.13034375,"end":228.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.44659375,"end":231.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.53471875000002,"end":235.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.48784375000002,"end":239.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.79096875000002,"end":240.09471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.09471875000003,"end":241.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.25909375,"end":243.08159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.37284375000002,"end":243.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.02659375000002,"end":244.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.04346875000002,"end":248.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.06034375000002,"end":244.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.12284375000002,"end":249.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.59534375,"end":251.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.81846875000002,"end":253.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.44284375,"end":254.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.00784375,"end":262.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.15034375,"end":262.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.75784375,"end":265.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.96409375,"end":266.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.71909375,"end":269.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.67659375,"end":278.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.25284375,"end":282.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.97409375,"end":284.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.76284375,"end":285.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.89784375,"end":310.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.73784375,"end":312.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.80471875,"end":318.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.42409375,"end":320.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.50846875,"end":320.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.09471875,"end":322.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.59659375,"end":323.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.18284375,"end":327.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.81096875000003,"end":331.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.22409375,"end":335.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.88971875000004,"end":338.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.67409375,"end":341.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.56846875,"end":343.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.17596875000004,"end":345.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.12909375000004,"end":346.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.76159375000003,"end":346.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.77846875,"end":347.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.81221875,"end":346.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.86284375,"end":351.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.62159375000005,"end":354.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.33034375,"end":356.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.56596875,"end":360.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.05096875000004,"end":359.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.21096875,"end":371.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.92221875,"end":375.14534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.58034375,"end":373.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.76159375000003,"end":375.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.60096875000005,"end":380.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.11971875,"end":380.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.86596875000004,"end":392.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.46346875,"end":394.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.44596875,"end":395.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.49659375000005,"end":398.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.62721875,"end":397.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.46659375,"end":399.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.51284375,"end":401.72346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.02721875000003,"end":403.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.46159375,"end":408.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.49534375,"end":405.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.97596875000005,"end":418.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.17659375000005,"end":421.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.34471875,"end":422.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.08721875000003,"end":425.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.90534375000004,"end":428.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.67284375,"end":431.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.67659375000005,"end":432.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.09409375,"end":434.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.84909375,"end":435.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.28346875000005,"end":437.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.01721875000004,"end":439.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.38409375000003,"end":444.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.67034375000003,"end":445.10909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.10909375000006,"end":447.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.43784375,"end":448.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.31096875000003,"end":454.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.62659375000004,"end":455.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.73596875000004,"end":459.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.63846875,"end":471.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.34534375000004,"end":476.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.86346875000004,"end":481.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.38596875,"end":483.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.85409375,"end":488.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.57909375,"end":492.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.69721875000005,"end":488.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.13534375,"end":495.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.58659375,"end":496.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.44284375,"end":497.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.67909375000005,"end":496.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.26971875000004,"end":498.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.24409375000005,"end":502.09596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.41659375000006,"end":510.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.93846875,"end":512.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.99721875,"end":514.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.39346875,"end":516.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.7265937500001,"end":520.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.13096875,"end":521.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.3503437500001,"end":526.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.51409375,"end":528.8428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.35346875,"end":530.5303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.29409375,"end":531.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.6315937500001,"end":541.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.08971875,"end":544.8403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.9922187500001,"end":546.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.9328437500001,"end":549.7678437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.494,"end":11.774,"text":"現在我們說醫護血汗這一個崩潰兩個字來形容那這個崩潰"},{"start":29.246,"end":50.829,"text":"也已經很久到底我們改善的口號還要很多久我們看到現在目前為止醫護現場的崩潰無論是急診室的庸塞重症病患難以排入ICU尤其我們還看到我們的醫護人員真的太辛苦了"},{"start":51.63,"end":76.674,"text":"他必須要上了十幾個小時急診一個人要顧十幾個人救護車送病患來 甚至全部滿床重症者沒有床不能那怎麼辦 救護車的床啊下來做暫時床做暫時床在這樣的情況之下 我只能夠用血汗崩潰來形容"},{"start":78.496,"end":89.313,"text":"我要請教因為你也是來自醫界你也當過民意代表真正的原因是什麼會導致現在的現狀真正的原因是什麼請做說明"},{"start":92.919,"end":104.971,"text":"這個有分長期跟短期啦那短期這次發生的比較嚴重我們不可諱言就是護理人力方面需要加強護理缺人力不足醫療體系缺人在近期當然是比較明顯那長期來講就是我們在推分級"},{"start":114.134,"end":134.911,"text":"醫療這個部分也沒有落實那民眾還是相信大醫院其實有些病其實是可以找他社區的一個診所醫師部長你剛剛所說的原因主要你講出三點第一個也就是整個醫療體系缺人"},{"start":136.144,"end":146.754,"text":"接下來缺衣物接下來護理人員不足那這個原因這麼危急他面臨到下一個環節問題是什麼請問下一個環節問題是什麼導致這樣的原因條件下一個環節是什麼"},{"start":157.492,"end":159.834,"text":"下一個環節就是醫院要關病房急診待診停治的時間會越多"},{"start":178.186,"end":201.094,"text":"對不對再來就是門診床位調度會失衡是不是所以它是連環問題一直產生你是醫界出身你告訴我是這不是一朝一夕耶也不是現在才發生因為在疫情之後我們已經提出出現了護病比是1比10"},{"start":202.87,"end":221.939,"text":"是不是所以你們在評鑑裡頭你提出的1比6 1比7 1比9作為評鑑的原因之內所以因此我要跟你討論1比12的地區醫院也因為如此你剛剛講到一個關鍵醫務人員不夠所以只好關病房對不對所以這樣的情況我們要怎麼解決我回顧在2003年的時候"},{"start":232.594,"end":251.007,"text":"我們為了也就是病房費在我們健保體系我們把它拉出來護理人員單獨體系對不對護理會拉出來目的要做什麼我們希望護理人員很辛苦他可以願意要留下來而且我們專款專用第一梯是20億"},{"start":256.055,"end":278.052,"text":"就如此解決了當時稍微的緊張可以緩和一點但是到目前為止我們要怎麼辦我們要怎麼辦離職潮這麼多衍生的問題因為人力不足導致醫院的方式關病房也好再急診請大家不要再到急診了媒體這麼罷你看到吧那你要怎麼解決"},{"start":284.795,"end":310.731,"text":"你今天是部長當然必須要到急診還是到急診那如果說一些未婚化的症狀那我們希望說能夠有分流的機制那這樣能舒緩急診的壓力這個部分當然從預防性的措施我們要做那至於說人力方面我們不停的在努力提高醫護同仁的待遇還有改善公司醫護同仁的待遇我們問兩種總統說"},{"start":314.635,"end":335.668,"text":"總統說我們的這個三班互併筆要入法什麼時候要入法已經過了一年了他說兩年或者在任內你是他的部長你會完成他的承諾嗎我一定會完成他的承諾你會完成他的承諾也就是說我們的三班互併筆一定會入法你現在進程怎麼樣"},{"start":339.707,"end":348.514,"text":"跟委員報告進程如何你們現在討論到哪裡其實這個有很多政策請針對議題提問因為你已經說你會完成總統的政治承諾那請問但是因為要達到的時候也是要努力嘛所以我們現在"},{"start":356.641,"end":370.225,"text":"你現在進度怎麼樣?沒關係本期只要了解進度我們首相的努力之下我們從去年的3月醫學中心36%達到三班護病比 三班喔都達到的36%現在已經59了"},{"start":371.986,"end":377.77,"text":"所以你現在不是在入法嘛你現在只是自助嘛現在是獎勵的情況之下那區議院已經到達50%那地區議院已經到達94%我相信獎勵的如果落實對於護病比應該是會達到更好的目標獎勵的經費在你編列在今年度"},{"start":395.592,"end":419.737,"text":"是你編的嘛大家全力支持嘛對不對感謝感謝感謝齁還好你說一句感謝不能再造謠一定要好好講好好地支持我們的醫護所以本期在這裡討論因為會計速度還沒有完成所以我們現在對不起還沒一頁還沒辦法發啦等整個預算確認以後我們就趕快來發從一頁就要趕快來發這個項目是79.87億嘛對不對大家全力地在支持啊"},{"start":425.996,"end":443.893,"text":"所以接下來本席要請問您剛才承諾的你會完成總統他所說的互併三班這個字的路法對不對三班互併筆你會完成他的"},{"start":445.204,"end":470.503,"text":"全力以赴完成任務全力以赴完成任務好請你繼續加油接下來我要請問面對到這樣的問題你要怎麼做本席具體給你建議在短期之內你必須要增加因為民眾需求你剛才說的醫院在喊不要到急診來了我們已經超額很多好幾倍了你說該去還是要去不是你一句該去還是要去你要解決他們的問題啊"},{"start":472.444,"end":498.335,"text":"所以急診住院的配床是不是應該要增加第二個 用設施所需的醫護人力是不是要增加第三個 要建立ICU的調配制度在短期內是不是應該這三項要好好的趕快去協助他們有 這個都在努力都在努力 方案請給本席好 沒問題接下來中長期"},{"start":499.455,"end":525.678,"text":"護理人員我說我從2003年就開始護理人員的待遇跟工作狀態都應該列為你重要的改革政策真正的來場支持我們的醫護包括我們的護理會你的預算這個向下要怎麼樣專款專用不能再挪用對不對是不是該給護理的我們一定要求醫院要公開透明"},{"start":526.601,"end":547.672,"text":"不能扣東扣西公開透明不能扣東扣西立法院大家全力的支持你這79億多將近80億我希望你好好善用真正讓我們的護理人員醫護可以好好放心的來照顧這是我們非常希望要努力的目標請你把方案給本席謝謝好 感謝委員謝謝楊委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1095,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時55分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。現在我們說醫護血汗，只能用「崩潰」兩個字來形容，這個崩潰也已經很久了，到底我們改善的口號還要喊多久？到目前為止，我們看醫護現場的崩潰，急診室壅塞，重症病患難以排入ICU，尤其我們的醫護人員真的太辛苦了，必須要上十幾個小時的班，急診一個人要顧十幾個人，甚至全部滿床，救護車送病患來，重症者不能沒有床，怎麼辦？救護車的床拿下來當暫時床，在這樣的情況之下，我只能用「血汗」、「崩潰」來形容。部長來自醫界，也當過民意代表，會導致現在的狀況，真正的原因是什麼？請說明。"],["邱部長泰源：這個有分長期跟短期，在短期部分，這次發生的情況比較嚴重，不可諱言，就是護理人力各方面需要加強……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：護理缺，人力不足，醫療體系缺人、缺醫護。"],["邱部長泰源：這部分在近期當然是比較明顯，長期來講，就是我們推的分級醫療沒有落實，民眾還是相信大醫院，其實有些病是可以找社區的診所、醫師。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你剛剛所說的原因，主要講出三點，第一，整個醫療體系缺人，缺醫護，護理人員不足，這個原因這麼危急，面臨到的下一個環節問題是什麼？請問，下一個環節問題是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：你說護理人員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這樣的原因、條件，導致下一個環節是什麼？下一個環節是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：我們也一直用各種方式去改善，包括護理人力十二項策略，如果能夠落實，相信……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：下一個環節就是醫院要關病房！"],["邱部長泰源：對啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：急診待床停滯的時間會越長，對不對？再來就是門診床位調度失衡，是不是？所以它是連環問題一直產生。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你是醫界出身，你告訴我「是」，這不是一朝一夕，也不是現在才發生，疫情之後，我們已經提出出現的護病比是1比10，是不是？所以你們在評鑑中提出1比6、1比7、1比9作為評鑑的因素之一，因此我要跟你討論1比12的地區醫院，也因為如此，你剛剛講到一個關鍵，醫護人員不夠，只好關病房，對不對？這樣的情況，我們要怎麼解決？回顧2003年時，為了健保體系裡的病房費，我們把它拉出來，護理人員是單獨體系，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：護理費、護理費。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：護理費拉出來，目的要做什麼？我們希望辛苦的護理人員願意留下來，而且是專款專用，第一梯是20億，如此就稍微解決了當時的緊張情況，緩和一點，但是到目前為止，我們要怎麼辦？離職潮這麼多，因為人力不足，衍生的問題，導致醫院的處理方式，包括關病房也好，或是請大家不要再到急診了，媒體這麼報，你有看到吧？那你要怎麼解決？你今天是部長。"],["邱部長泰源：必須要到急診的，還是到急診，如果是一些未分化的症狀，那我們希望能夠有分流的機制，以紓緩急診的壓力，這個部分，當然從預防性的措施我們要做。至於人力方面，我們不停地在努力提高醫護同仁的待遇，還有改善工作……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：醫護同仁的待遇分為兩種，總統說三班護病比要入法，什麼時候要入法？已經過了一年了，他說兩年或者在任內入法，你是他的部長，你會完成他的承諾嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我一定會完成他的承諾。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你會完成他的承諾，也就是說，三班護病比一定會入法，現在進程怎麼樣？進程如何？你們討論到哪裡？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，有很多政策，因為要多方研究……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請針對議題回答，因為你已經說你會完成總統的政治承諾，請問你們現在已經經過一年了……"],["邱部長泰源：但是要達到目標也是要努力，所以我們現在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在進度怎麼樣？沒關係，本席只要瞭解進度。"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，我們的12項計畫在努力之下，從去年3月醫學中心達到三班護病比的有36%，現在已經達到59%了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你現在不是在入法嘛，你現在是在制度嘛。"],["邱部長泰源：現在只是獎勵，獎勵就……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要講清楚喔！你剛才是說你會完成喔！現在獎勵……"],["邱部長泰源：現在是在獎勵的情況之下，區域醫院已經到達50%，地區醫院已經到達94%，我相信獎勵如果能夠落實，護病比應該是可以達到更好的目標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：獎勵的經費你編列在今年度，是你編的嘛？"],["邱部長泰源：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大家全力支持嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：感謝，感謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還好你說一句感謝，不能再造謠，一定要好好講，好好地支持我們的醫護，所以本席在這裡討論……"],["邱部長泰源：沒有，現在因為整個會計制度還沒有完成，所以對不起，我們現在1月的還沒有辦法發，等整個預算確認以後，我們就趕快來發，從1月就要趕快來發。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：項目是79.87億，對不對？大家全力地在支持啊！所以接下來本席要請問，你剛才承諾，你會完成總統所說的三班護病比的入法，對不對？三班護病比的入法你會完成。"],["邱部長泰源：全力以赴，完成任務。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：全力以赴，完成任務，好，請你繼續加油。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來，我要請問，面對這樣的問題，你要怎麼做？本席具體給你建議，在短期之內，你必須要增加，因為民眾需求，你剛才說的，醫院在喊：「不要到急診來了，我們已經超額很多，好幾倍了。」你說該去還是要去，不是你一句該去還是要去，你要解決他們的問題啊！所以急診住院的配床是不是應該要增加？第二個，壅塞時所需的醫護人力是不是要增加？第三個，是不是應該在短期內建立ICU的調配制度？這三項要好好地趕快去協助他們。"],["邱部長泰源：有，這個都在努力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都在努力？"],["邱部長泰源：有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：方案請給本席。"],["邱部長泰源：好，沒問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來要談中長期的問題，我從2003年就開始說護理人員的問題，護理人員的待遇跟工作狀態都應該列為你重要的改革政策，真正地來支持我們的醫護，包括護理費，你的預算要怎麼樣專款專用？不能再挪用，對不對？是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：是。該給護理人員的，我們一定要求醫院要公開透明，不能扣東扣西，要完全……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：公開透明，不能扣東扣西。"],["邱部長泰源：對，要完全給。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：立法院大家全力地支持你這七十九億多的預算，將近80億，我希望你好好善用，真正讓我們的醫護可以好好放心地來照顧病患。"],["邱部長泰源：一定這也是我們非常希望要努力的目標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你把方案給本席，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，感謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員，謝謝部長。","繼續我們請陳瑩委員質詢。","我們全部答詢完再休息。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","羅智強","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","劉建國","陳培瑜","楊曜","王義川"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00005"}}},{"id":"159167","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159167","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fb61bc3577f0a572fb0efe61acdb48b4e86f8ffab8834d9833ab31a2dbb756f7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"12:10:17 - 12:17:31","影片長度":"00:07:14","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【如本院改為加開院會，則本次會議取消，不另行通知。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:10:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:17:31+08:00","duration":434,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.16596875,"end":0.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.36409375,"end":6.2915937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.966593750000001,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.818468750000001,"end":10.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.598468750000002,"end":14.931593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.94846875,"end":14.965343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.52221875,"end":15.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.99471875,"end":16.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.28159375,"end":30.625343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.08096875,"end":31.722218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.53596875,"end":36.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.74221875,"end":55.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.34284375,"end":110.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.35971875000001,"end":141.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.74721875,"end":146.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.53971875000002,"end":150.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.34909375,"end":167.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.97096875,"end":178.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.94409375,"end":199.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.98284375,"end":201.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.26534375,"end":203.83034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.04971875,"end":245.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.42721875,"end":269.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.62159375000005,"end":272.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.89971875000003,"end":273.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.87846875,"end":276.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.57846875,"end":281.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.18096875000003,"end":283.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.64909375,"end":284.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.13846875,"end":286.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.02846875,"end":286.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.82159375000003,"end":293.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.14971875000003,"end":296.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.99721875,"end":298.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.92096875000004,"end":305.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.96221875000003,"end":307.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.17721875,"end":307.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.39221875000004,"end":308.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.94909375000003,"end":320.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.01034375,"end":346.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.99346875000003,"end":358.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.01034375,"end":349.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.43909375000004,"end":381.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.55784375,"end":397.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.58909375,"end":400.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.93034375,"end":430.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.42784375,"end":431.49096875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.489,"end":10.515,"text":"謝謝主席這本席這個雖然是外委會第一個但是要等到12點這大家都辛苦了好我們有請這個文煌部長請部長那個遙控器"},{"start":16.346,"end":31.674,"text":"好 部長好本席雖然不是這個交通委員會的成員但是我一直非常關注的就是有關於網路安全跟相關的數位安全的部分我剛剛特別看了一下書發部所提出來的這個報告的部分PTT好"},{"start":38.786,"end":54.556,"text":"根據現在昨天因為復翼失敗的關係所以數位部被刪的可以說是非常的慘烈那麼被刪減的35.8億當中影響到的是資安、數位韌性、AI打炸這近五年來我想我統計的這個數字"},{"start":56.417,"end":79.911,"text":"就是我們的資安事件就有5211包括剛剛其實前面很多博文會的委員也有提到現在不論是我們的公部門又是私部門或者是像醫院等等都遭受了非常多的資安攻擊但是我們都知道其實現在是網路無國界不只是資安及國安很多時候的交流是非常重要的包括我現在羅列的這些黑貿駭客會議美國國際資訊安全會議等等這些會議都在國際當中舉行"},{"start":86.095,"end":107.735,"text":"而且很多會議還不是免費參加要報名才能參加那麼現在會不會因為我們有關於數位部國外旅費跟出國教育訓練的費用全部刪除所以台灣現在在藍白聯手之下我們變成是封閉在自己的國內然後無法出去嗎"},{"start":108.416,"end":128.288,"text":"那現在這些會議不重要嗎還是沒有關係因為我剛剛看到很多本委會的委員不論朝野都認為資安很重要啊但是這些會議的錢全部被刪掉了他們覺得很重要甚至於再問Deep Seek甚至於再問其他的平台這些平台到底有沒有資安的問題可不可以交流"},{"start":129.188,"end":149.899,"text":"我覺得現在這個狀況我們必須要想想有什麼替代方案尤其是有些會議室你不是說我視訊跟你視訊就好人家不跟你視訊啊那我們該怎麼辦 部長委員剛剛講的很好就是說我們事實上這出國軍會全三分兩部分一個是跟治安相關因為我們過去"},{"start":151.42,"end":166.493,"text":"去年有100場的這個資安的交流會議那這個當然就就裡面有些重要的是訓練就是演練跟集合跟這個所謂的情資的交流技術的交流這個會議是不能夠線上因為牽涉到就剛剛講的我們會養雞場"},{"start":167.534,"end":188.195,"text":"人家都在鎖資安結果我們跟人家講說不好意思我們沒有錢出國因為我們藍白立委把這些錢全部都刪完了我們視訊會議一下人家跟你講說你有沒有資安啊對不對在很多會議是不准視訊甚至於我們進到會場是要把手機交出來所以那個確實有些敏感沒辦法用視訊解決那是資安部分那另外剛剛委員講到就是我們幾個會議像我們所謂數位主權的會議"},{"start":191.539,"end":206.318,"text":"這幾面包括其實這裡面FFOC是我去年親自參加是部長級的會議我們好不容易爭取到觀察員然後如果今年不參加我們本來想爭取可能會員但是不參加可能就一定不能參加一定會有受影響"},{"start":207.119,"end":225.18,"text":"那像ICANN這樣的會議是我們的所謂的這個網路的這個主權也就是說我們在網路的這個domain name爭取的時候比如說.tw到底是要跟台灣申請或是要跟中國申請那我們是一直維護.tw或.台北或.台南.高雄是在台灣申請"},{"start":226.101,"end":244.918,"text":"那但是如果我們沒辦法參加ICANN的會議有可能我們的會員會被對岸奪取那就造成我們將來在這個所謂的數位主權上會受到很大的影響所以我想出國經費這樣子被砍成零對我們國家的治安對我們國家的這個所謂數位主權都有嚴重的影響"},{"start":245.438,"end":273.289,"text":"好因為現在喔這個國民黨說只要提追加預算委員會同意就可以剛剛我去了好幾個委員會其實我問的都是他的問題就是那我不知道像這種刪減成零啊可不可以提追加減預算啦這個回去恐怕這個部長要跟這個主計處或相關的單位來提醒因為我現在羅列的這些會議部長有沒有哪個會議不重要我們就給他刪掉有沒有"},{"start":273.869,"end":297.797,"text":"沒有 這個都是很重要的資安更是好 那你有沒有算過這些資安會議如果都要參加台灣不能孤立在我們自己的國家裡面那要多少經費 你有沒有初估過原來我們編的經費大概是2200萬就是所有的這些會議加起來那再經過教育委員會刪了一部分大概至少還有1700多萬但是現在又變成零 所以"},{"start":299.037,"end":326.042,"text":"就說就基本上就沒有但是我們原來是至少有1700億就說經過交委會出來至少還有1700億好這1700億喔我必須說1700萬1700萬本席必須說這些預算其實不是只有你們在用包括很多專家學者產官學界都要去為什麼我今天會特別質詢是因為透過直播現在有很多業界的人都在擔心因為這個都要報名了"},{"start":326.602,"end":346.619,"text":"所以這個部分本席要提醒如果預算真的有機會如果國民黨所說可以追加你們要趕快送上來因為整個六七月的活動都開始了另外因為時間有限你也想了我只想AI打炸剛剛也有很多委員都在說但是如果現在我們AI打炸這筆預算是不是全部被刪了"},{"start":348.246,"end":367.312,"text":"還是現在那被影響到的是哪些部分是不是表示就不能做還是部分可以做其實這個民眾也很擔心啊因為那個詐騙集團一直在變化所以我們AI在我們過去也是用AI在掃描網頁找出詐騙的網站或廣告"},{"start":369.213,"end":395.304,"text":"那因為他們一直在變所以我們AI要一直精進但是因為今年預算被刪所以我們很多研究工作就會暫停是會影響到我們打造的效率啦這是必然的但是我們還是盡量在有限的境外下還是要把這個工作因為這必然是一個很重要的工作但是刪了太多結果必然而然就是在我們跟對因為對方是用AI打我們那我們對方投入的資源比我們大很多所以我們在這邊我會擔心確實會有嚴重的影響"},{"start":397.625,"end":426.965,"text":"好本期其實質詢也是希望就是你們現在連這個宣傳經費都被刪了恐怕你們不利用這個委員會好好的把話講清楚透過媒體去傳達很多產業的人會以為是數位部現在都不做事不是不做事或者是不交流而是這些錢都被刪了那對於產業有哪些影響產業再發生你們也要發生民眾才會知道說原來我們的資安及國安但是我們的現在資安要交流的部分完全都被鎖在台灣裡面"},{"start":427.705,"end":431.292,"text":"那麼你們也要提出相關的因應方法好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":623,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（12時10分）謝謝主席。本席雖然是外委會第一個，但是要等到12點，大家都辛苦了！有請黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：部長好。本席雖然不是交通委員會的成員，但是我一直非常關注的就是關於網路安全與數位安全相關的部分。我剛剛特別看了一下數發部所提出來的報告，因為昨天覆議失敗的關係，所以數位部被刪得可以說是非常地慘烈啦！被刪減的35.8億元當中，影響到的是資安、數位韌性、AI打詐。近5年來，以我統計的數字，我們的資安事件就有5,211件，包括剛剛其實也有很多本委員會的委員提到，現在不論是我們的公部門、又或是私部門，或者是像醫院等等，都遭受了非常多資安攻擊。我們都知道現在網路無國界，不只是資安即國安，很多時候交流是非常重要的，包括我現在羅列的這些：黑帽駭客會議啊、美國國際資訊安全會議等等，這些會議都在國際當中舉行，而且很多會議還不是免費參加，要報名才能參加。那麼現在會不會因為數位部關於國外旅費跟出國教育訓練的費用全部被刪除，臺灣在藍白聯手之下變成封閉在自己的國內、無法出去？現在這些會議不重要嗎？還是沒有關係？我剛剛看到很多本委員會的委員、不論朝野，都認為資安很重要啊！但是這些會議的錢全部被刪掉了。他們覺得很重要、甚至於在問DeepSeek、甚至於在問其他平臺、這些平臺到底有沒有資安的問題、可不可以交流？所以我覺得以現在這個狀況，我們必須想想有什麼替代方案。尤其有些會議不是用視訊、跟你視訊就好，人家不跟你視訊啊！那我們該怎麼辦，部長？"],["黃部長彥男：委員剛剛講得很好，事實上，出國經費全刪分兩部分啦！一個是跟資安相關。我們去年有100場資安的交流會議，裡面當然有些重要的是訓練，也就是演練跟稽核、所謂的情資交流、技術交流，這種會議是不能夠線上舉行的，因為牽涉到的就是剛剛講的，我們有養機場……"],["林委員楚茵：人家都在鎖資安，結果我們卻跟人家講「不好意思喔！我們沒有錢出國，因為藍白立委把這些錢全部都刪完了，我們視訊會議一下。」那人家會跟你講「你們有沒有資安啊？」對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對，關於視訊，在很多會議中是不准視訊，甚至我們進到會場要把手機交出來，所以確實有些敏感，沒辦法透過視訊解決，那是資安部分。","另外，剛剛委員講到幾個會議，像是所謂數位主權會議。在這裡面，其實FOC我去年是親自參加，這是部長級會議，我們好不容易爭取到觀察員，如果今年不參加，我們本來想爭取會員，不能參加一定會受影響。像ICANN這樣的會議是關於所謂網路的主權，也就是我們在做網路domain name爭取的時候，比如說.tw到底是要跟臺灣申請或是要跟中國申請？我們是一直維護.tw、.taipei或.tainan、.高雄在臺灣申請喔！但是如果我們沒有辦法參加ICANN的會議，我們的會員有可能被對岸奪取，那就會造成我們將來在所謂的數位主權上受到很大的影響。所以我想出國經費這樣被砍成零，對我們國家的資安、對我們國家的所謂數位主權都有嚴重的影響。"],["林委員楚茵：好。現在國民黨說只要提追加預算、委員會同意就可以，但剛剛我去了好幾個委員會，其實問的都是同樣的問題，就是我不知道這種刪減成零的情形可不可以提追加減預算啦！這個部長回去以後恐怕要跟主計總處或相關單位提醒。","以我現在所羅列的這些會議，部長，有沒有哪個會議不重要？我們就把它刪掉。有沒有？"],["黃部長彥男：沒有，這都是很重要的資安跟……"],["林委員楚茵：好。你有沒有算過這些資安會議如果都要參加，臺灣不能孤立在我們自己的國家裡面，那麼要多少經費？你有沒有初估過？"],["黃部長彥男：原來我們編的經費大概是2,200萬元，就是所有這些會議加起來。經過教育委員會刪了一部分，大概至少還有一千七百多萬元，但是現在又變成零，基本上就比較……我們原來經過教委會出來，至少還有一千七百億……"],["林委員楚茵：對於這一千七百億，我必須說……"],["黃部長彥男：一千七百萬。"],["林委員楚茵：這一千七百萬，本席必須說，這些預算其實不是只有你們在用，包括很多專家、學者、產官學界都要去。為什麼我今天會特別質詢？是因為會透過直播。很多業界的人都在擔心，因為都要報名了，所以這部分本席要提醒，如果預算真的有機會、如國民黨所說可以追加，你們就要趕快送上來，因為整個六、七月的活動都開始了。","另外，因為時間有限、鈴也響了，我只講AI打詐，剛剛也有很多委員都在說，但是AI打詐這筆預算是不是全部被刪了？還是現在的……"],["黃部長彥男：被刪一大部分。"],["林委員楚茵：被刪？那被影響到的是那些部分？"],["黃部長彥男：主要是……"],["林委員楚茵：是不是表示就不能做？還是部分可以做？其實對這個民眾也很擔心啊！"],["黃部長彥男：對，因為詐騙集團一直在變化，我們過去一年是用AI掃描網頁、找出詐騙的網站或廣告，因為它們一直在變，所以我們的AI也要一直精進，但是因為今年預算被刪，所以有很多研究工作就會暫停，是會影響到我們打詐的效率啦！這個是必然的。我們在有限的經費下，還是要做這個工作，因為這是個很重要的工作，但是刪得太多的結果，必然而然就是在我們跟對方……因為對方是用AI打我們、對方投入的資源比我們大很多，所以我擔心在這邊確實會有嚴重的影響。"],["林委員楚茵：好，本席質詢其實也是希望……你們現在連宣傳經費都被刪了，如果不利用這個委員會好好地把話講清楚、透過媒體去傳達，恐怕很多產業的人會以為是數位部現在都不做事。不是不做事或不交流，而是這些錢都被刪了，對於產業有哪些影響，產業在發聲，你們也要發聲，民眾才會知道，原來資安即國安，但是現在資安要交流的部分完全都被鎖在臺灣裡面，那麼你們也要提出相關的因應方法。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請游顥委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-2","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","黃健豪","林楚茵","游顥","葛如鈞"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00010"}}},{"id":"159166","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159166","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f7dc81507af1c1f9cb0efe61acdb48b4e86f8ffab8834d983062fd125beb3cbaa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"12:00:36 - 12:09:50","影片長度":"00:09:14","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【如本院改為加開院會，則本次會議取消，不另行通知。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:00:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:09:50+08:00","duration":554,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.6634687500000003,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.03471875,"end":3.1359687500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":3.2372187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8278437500000004,"end":4.840343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.75159375,"end":11.809718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.585968750000003,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.138468750000001,"end":25.664093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.10284375,"end":31.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.228468750000005,"end":37.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.932218750000004,"end":43.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.95659375,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.470968750000004,"end":50.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.26346875,"end":53.102843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.828468750000006,"end":58.907843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.633468750000006,"end":60.797843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.50659375,"end":64.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.88159375000001,"end":67.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.58159375000001,"end":68.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.76284375,"end":71.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.61034375,"end":75.19221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.05721875,"end":88.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.64159375,"end":94.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.42971875,"end":102.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.36096875000001,"end":102.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.08659375,"end":107.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.94659375,"end":108.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.39784375,"end":110.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.12346875,"end":110.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.89971875,"end":116.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.58659375,"end":119.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.70409375000001,"end":122.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.86409375000001,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.48784375000001,"end":130.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.70659375,"end":134.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.22909375,"end":138.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.14409375,"end":142.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.85659375,"end":146.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.84346875,"end":148.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.12159375000002,"end":151.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.34471875,"end":155.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.85471875000002,"end":156.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.67721875,"end":161.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.57534375,"end":163.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.90409375000002,"end":164.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.35534375,"end":167.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.29159375,"end":175.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.59409375,"end":177.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.06221875,"end":179.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.13346875000002,"end":186.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.76971875,"end":192.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.76034375,"end":201.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.11346875,"end":209.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.92221875,"end":213.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.14534375000002,"end":215.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.81159375000001,"end":225.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.53159375,"end":228.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.94034375,"end":229.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.17221875,"end":233.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.44596875000002,"end":238.82909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.53784375,"end":250.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.36721875,"end":252.70034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.54409375000003,"end":267.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.63471875,"end":281.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.42159375,"end":283.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.86846875000003,"end":289.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.43284375,"end":295.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.57971875000004,"end":301.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.14846875,"end":301.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.51971875000004,"end":305.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.22784375000003,"end":312.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.53909375,"end":326.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.08534375,"end":333.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.64971875000003,"end":336.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.64909375,"end":345.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.49596875000003,"end":358.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.77659375,"end":362.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.01221875000005,"end":365.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.25221875,"end":367.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.10846875000004,"end":374.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.14596875,"end":371.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.25096875,"end":376.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.66409375,"end":377.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.45721875000004,"end":386.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.75534375,"end":419.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.67846875000004,"end":424.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.26846875,"end":425.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.39909375,"end":428.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.68971875000005,"end":435.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.03471875,"end":438.81471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.13596875,"end":435.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.08471875000004,"end":439.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.11846875000003,"end":440.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.96221875000003,"end":450.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.39221875000004,"end":445.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.13846875,"end":446.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.37409375000004,"end":462.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.42721875,"end":466.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.18159375000005,"end":469.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.18534375,"end":486.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.55409375000005,"end":495.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.40096875,"end":495.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.13909375000003,"end":508.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.34409375,"end":510.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.07346875,"end":520.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.8315937500001,"end":521.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.87346875,"end":525.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.8559687500001,"end":526.1428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.1428437500001,"end":528.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.18471875,"end":530.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.6697187500001,"end":532.7409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.1672187500001,"end":532.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.36534375,"end":542.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.02284375,"end":538.4109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.57971875,"end":539.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.43596875,"end":541.0772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.33846875,"end":551.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.21909375,"end":551.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.42159375,"end":552.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.77159375,"end":552.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.9740937500001,"end":553.7165937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.796,"end":11.105,"text":"我剛一開始就提到其實我對這一次的預算其實是很有意見"},{"start":14.389,"end":42.769,"text":"預算數86被刪了35.82動了17.25所以剛剛林軍縣委員也有提到就是說巧婦難為無米之炊啦錢少很多要做很多事事實上是很辛苦那當然就是說我們也盡力而為啦那我們也希望說後續我會再多做一些趕快提一些專案報告希望趕快解凍那能做的就盡量做"},{"start":44.088,"end":71.195,"text":"那當然就是說打詐跟數位任性其實這個都是非常重要的東西那包括AI基本法現在就是本來在我們的交通委員會的速發部那現在就是程序委員會把它調到那個教委會的國發會坦白講這個我個人是不贊成"},{"start":72.639,"end":97.126,"text":"那我想問一下部長的意見怎麼樣我們這樣子就是所謂基本法其實並沒有所謂主管機關因為都是以政府來當作是主持所以原則上行政院有在上次開會有談一個決議就是說雖然沒有主管機關但是以後AI的基本法的推動跟解釋單位是速發部那我們承接這樣的一個工作我們已經開始在進行"},{"start":98.146,"end":126.701,"text":"所以我們當然就是說因為行政院有指示所以我們會去再推動AI基本法的推動跟剛剛講就是需要去溝通協調這個我們書畫部會進行因為你看AI基本法剛剛那個部長有提到其實將來有很多的規範到底創新好還是規範要到什麼程度我聽他們那個將來整個世界上又會有一個protocol去訂定嘛"},{"start":127.54,"end":150.946,"text":"我是聽人家這樣說 醫療AI有頭的頭比較好的不能有頭有手有頭有手的頭比較不太好這個其實概念很簡單 但是也有一些不孝分子可能會去偷做 偷得又有手有腳的"},{"start":152.483,"end":179.429,"text":"那基本上我們訂這個規範這個應該是最後這個部分應該也會訂下去啦類似這樣子的啦就是說以中型防範未來那個人類被機器人取代那機器人會攻擊人類這些相對的都會在整個世界的公約上去訂定當然就是說我們可以看OECD"},{"start":181.455,"end":208.837,"text":"經濟合作發展組織它有一些人工智慧的建議所以全世界各國也都針對人工智慧訂一些法規比如說日本的人工智慧社會原則美國、加拿大、歐盟等等人工智慧法所以我也認為說我們台灣要儘快訂這個AI基本法這個是一個基本的大的原則"},{"start":209.958,"end":227.851,"text":"那當然AI基本法也不用訂很細啦我知道有一些不同的委員或不同的黨派那訂定的AI基本法規範的很細那我個人是認為也沒有那個必要啦那當然就是說我們希望說的就是"},{"start":229.045,"end":252.629,"text":"速發部就AI的所有的部分那包括這些基本的法則包括將來應用包括將來執行我想速發部應該都是最直接的啦包括國發會可能會有一些預算編列就AI的應用的部分軟體的部分也會給速發部來用嘛"},{"start":253.775,"end":279.898,"text":"所以大原則我是認為說是不是部長應該把這個AI基本法充分的表達你的意見就是說應該回到我們的訴法部來才是最專業最適合的對 包括委員就是說基本法這是很多原則性的宣示那後面要立很多作用法跟執法這個目前下面很多都是我們訴法部要去做像AI的風險分類或分級"},{"start":281.879,"end":304.754,"text":"一些資料的管理等等但都會在我們這裡所以不管那個最上層的基本法是誰在推動但是在後面很多的資法跟作用都會回到促發部在制定所以這個工作上促發部還是負責最主要的工作我是覺得剛剛部長提到盡量去爭取"},{"start":306.397,"end":325.811,"text":"那另外就是說我們這個基本上塑化部所負責的業務將來AI的應用真的很廣泛包括智慧醫療包括無人機包括自駕車簡單的講就是AI for all所有的部分都有可能會用到AI那今天"},{"start":327.148,"end":336.451,"text":"就像我們大學在寫程式的時候我們那個實在是4chan了啦基本上我們要有一個電腦中心讓我們去寫程式"},{"start":337.828,"end":365.547,"text":"那我們現在就是說所有的AI的應用有一些小中小企業他可能沒有足夠的算力中心他可能沒有足夠的硬體設備你要叫他自己寫是有點困難的所以就牽涉到我們的AI的算力池這個部分或者是說我們的韌性這個部分那目前整個國家應該也有規劃一個大的方向"},{"start":368.168,"end":386.396,"text":"大企業自己去做那是有能力啦中小企業沒有能力去做這個部分書發部準備什麼樣的能力然後讓其他的中小企業要做AI應用的都可以來國家幫你處理這個基本的硬體的裝置"},{"start":387.276,"end":401.35,"text":"我們就是在去年就成立了一個算力池大概有40片的GPU就讓民眾可以在中小企業能夠申請免費使用在這裡面我們也產生了這個"},{"start":403.312,"end":424.638,"text":"大概幾十個這樣一個AI的80個AI的應用嘛那本來今年是打算擴充到再加買個70個GPU然後擴大到就至少300個300個這個公司本來打算本來是打算這樣子但是因為經費關係我們就是要維持去年的那個規模"},{"start":425.958,"end":443.709,"text":"經費是被刪掉的你們有做這個經費被刪掉嗎這一塊就被刪掉了所以這一塊就是沒辦法再去買因為GPU是蠻昂貴的所以這個要維護我想我們必須嚴正的抗議跟大力的宣導這個是要提供全國所有的中小企業有機會做AI應用的錢"},{"start":446.511,"end":468.913,"text":"所要做的設備那現在是被刪掉了你們沒辦法再擴充了沒辦法再買所以現在就是用原來的40片去提供服務就是服務的加速就有限了所以這個就想說在這個規模之下所以這個算一詞這個其實我真的是非常嚴重的抗議那最後這個那個韌性的海南站現在狀況如何"},{"start":470.194,"end":494.171,"text":"海嵐站目前就是我們就是國內就是有10有4條海嵐就是幾個海嵐站然後國際有14條海嵐那海嵐站的目前我們還在擴建幾個海嵐線那海嵐站當然就是也可以再加第一個我們有經費來補助這個電信公司在海嵐站的這些建設跟維運現在有規劃嗎"},{"start":496.713,"end":510.074,"text":"就是目前海嵐站是已經有幾個地方嘛那委員也知道我們事實上可以再擴充幾個海嵐站所以事實上海嵐站就是為了韌性有沒有規劃大概什麼時候有機會完成"},{"start":511.161,"end":532.358,"text":"新年我們有一筆預算就是要再規劃這個所謂的這個現在要考慮從高雄上岸這個會再繼續規劃所以今年應該有機會完成規劃那再來就是經費再看經費怎麼去又是經費被刪的問題今年就是經費不足你先把規劃做好然後"},{"start":533.819,"end":552.244,"text":"經費我們再來想辦法,不然看有沒有辦法追加減再說啦其實我真的是很生氣經費被刪這麼久,塑膠布是被刪得最慘的好啦,就你的能力盡力而為那我們能爭取經費我們再來做立法,我們運會再來做努力好,加油,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":581,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（12時）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["許委員智傑：部長好。我剛剛一開始就提到，其實我對這次的預算很有意見，預算數86億元被刪了35.82億元、凍結了17.25億元，所以剛剛林俊憲委員也有提到，就是「巧婦難為無米之炊」啦！錢少很多、要做很多事，事實上是很辛苦的。當然，我們也盡力而為啦！後續我會再多做一些。你們趕快提一些專案報告，希望趕快解凍，能做的就儘量做。","當然，打詐跟數位韌性，其實這些都是非常重要的東西啊！包括AI基本法本來是在我們交通委員會的數發部，現在程序委員會把它調到教委會的國科會，坦白講，這個我個人是不贊成啦！我想問一下，部長的意見怎麼樣？"],["黃部長彥男：我們是這樣：所謂基本法就是並沒有所謂的主管機關，因為都是以政府當作主持。行政院在上次開會時有談一個決議，就是說雖然沒有主管機關，但是以後AI基本法的推動跟解釋單位是數發部，而我們承接這樣的工作，已經開始在進行了。因為行政院有指示，所以我們會再去做AI基本法的推動，跟剛剛講的有需要去溝通、協調時，這個工作我們數發部會進行。"],["許委員智傑：你看，AI基本法部長剛剛也有提到，其實將來也有很多規範，包括到底創新好、還是規範要到什麼程度。我聽說將來整個世界上也會有一個protocol去訂定嘛！我是聽人家這樣講啦！以後的AI，有頭腦的、頭腦好的不能有腳、有手，有腳、有手的頭腦則不能太好啦！這個概念其實很簡單，但是也有一些不肖分子可能會偷做頭腦好又有手有腳的裝置。基本上，我們訂這個規範，對於最後這個部分應該也會訂下去啦！就是類似這樣的啦！也就是總要防範未來人類被機器人取代、機器人會攻擊人類，這些相對的都會在整個世界的公約上訂定。當然，我們可以看OECD（經濟合作暨發展組織）有一些針對人工智慧的建議，全世界各國也都針對人工智慧訂了一些法規，比如說日本的人工智慧社會原則以及美國、加拿大、歐盟等的人工智慧法，所以我也認為我們臺灣要儘快定這個AI基本法，這是一個基本的、大的原則。","當然，AI基本法也不用定得很細啦！我知道有一些不同委員或不同黨派所訂定的AI基本法規範得很細，我個人認為沒有那個必要啦！我們希望的就是數發部就AI的所有部分，包括這些基本的法則、包括將來的應用、包括將來的執行，我想數發部應該都是最直接的啦！包括國發會可能會有一些預算編列，就AI應用的部分、軟體的部分也會給數發部用嘛！所以關於大原則，我認為部長是不是應該就這個AI基本法充分地表達你的意見，就是說應該回到數發部來，才是最專業、最適合的？"],["黃部長彥男：對。報告委員，基本法就是做很多原則性的宣示啦！後面還要立很多作用法跟子法。目前下面有很多都是我們數發部要去做的，像是AI的風險分類或分級、一些資料的管理等等，但都會在我們這裡。所以不管最上層的基本法是誰在推動，後面很多子法跟作用法都會回到數發部再制訂，所以在工作上，數發部還是負責最主要的工作。"],["許委員智傑：好，我是覺得要照剛剛部長提到的儘量去爭取啦！"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["許委員智傑：另外就是關於基本上數發部所負責的業務，將來AI的應用真的很廣泛喔！包括智慧醫療、包括無人機、包括自駕車，簡單地講，就是AI for all嘛！所有部分都有可能會用到AI。今天，就像我們在大學寫程式的時候，我們那個時代是Fortran了啦！基本上要有一個電腦中心讓我們去寫程式。而現在面對所有AI的應用，有一些中小企業可能沒有足夠的算力中心、可能沒有足夠的硬體設備，若要叫他們自己寫，事實上是有困難的，所以就牽涉到我們的AI算力池這個部分或者我們的韌性這個部分。目前整個國家應該也有規劃一個大的方向，以後在做的方面，大企業由它們自己去做，那是因為他們有能力啊！至於中小企業沒能力去做的這部分，數發部準備什麼樣的能力，讓其他中小企業要做AI應用者，都可以由國家幫忙處理基本的硬體跟裝置？"],["黃部長彥男：我們在去年就成立了一個算力池，大概有40片GPU，讓中小企業能夠申請免費使用。在這裡面，我們也產生了80個AI的應用嘛！本來今年是打算再加買70個GPU，擴大到至少300個公司……"],["許委員智傑：本來打算？"],["黃部長彥男：本來是打算這樣子，但是因為經費的關係，我們就只好維持去年的規模。"],["許委員智傑：經費是被刪掉的？你們有做這個，經費卻被刪掉嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對啊！這一塊就被刪掉了，所以這一塊就沒辦法再買，因為GPU滿昂貴的，還要維護，所以……"],["許委員智傑：我想我們必須嚴正地抗議跟大力地宣導。"],["黃部長彥男：對，就是說這一塊……"],["許委員智傑：這是要提供給全國所有的中小企業有機會做AI應用的錢、所要做的設備。"],["黃部長彥男：對，現在就……"],["許委員智傑：那現在是被刪掉了，你們沒辦法再擴充了？"],["黃部長彥男：沒辦法再買，所以現在就是用原來的40片去提供服務，服務的家數就有限了，就是在規模上……"],["許委員智傑：好！所以針對算力池這點，其實我真的要非常嚴正地抗議嘛！","最後，韌性的海纜站現在狀況如何？"],["黃部長彥男：關於海纜站，目前國內有10條海纜、幾個海纜站，國際有14條海纜。關於海纜站，目前我們還在擴建幾條海纜線，海纜站當然也可以再加。第一，我們有經費補助電信公司，用在海纜站的建設跟維運……"],["許委員智傑：現在有規劃嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：目前海纜站已經有幾個地方嘛！委員也知道，我們可以再擴充幾個海纜站，事實上，對於海纜站，為了韌性，應該把它做……"],["許委員智傑：有沒有規劃大概什麼時候有機會完成？"],["黃部長彥男：今年我們有一筆預算要再規劃，就是現在考慮要從高雄上岸，這個會再繼續規劃。"],["許委員智傑：所以今年應該有機會完成啦！"],["黃部長彥男：是規劃，再來再看經費怎麼去……"],["許委員智傑：又是經費被刪的問題喔！"],["黃部長彥男：對，今年就是經費不足，所以只能先做……"],["許委員智傑：你先把規劃做好，然後針對經費，我們再來想辦法，不然就看有沒有辦法追加減再說啦！其實我真的是很生氣這個經費被刪這麼……"],["黃部長彥男：目前的確是被……"],["許委員智傑：數發部是被刪得最慘的。好啦！就你的能力盡力而為，我們能爭取經費的，我們再來從院會做努力。"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["許委員智傑：好，加油！謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許智傑委員、謝謝部長。"],["主席（許委員智傑）：現在請林楚茵委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-2","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","黃健豪","林楚茵","游顥","葛如鈞"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00010"}}},{"id":"159165","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159165","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f4f5763659a33611b0aae3c1a04a00b1b86f8ffab8834d983be90c14cbbb16b115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:47:00 - 12:55:11","影片長度":"00:08:11","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【如遇加開院會本次會議取消，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:47:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:55:11+08:00","duration":491,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.9422187500000001,"end":1.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.03909375,"end":2.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.992218750000001,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.724718750000001,"end":15.859718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.28159375,"end":17.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.37409375,"end":20.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.64784375,"end":23.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.875343750000003,"end":26.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.26721875,"end":30.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.60846875,"end":32.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.42659375,"end":37.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.814093750000005,"end":40.564718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.95284375,"end":43.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.54721875,"end":45.711593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.111593750000004,"end":51.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.34346875,"end":54.469718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.02659375,"end":58.047218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.65471875,"end":61.72596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.72596875000001,"end":62.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.35034375,"end":65.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.13034375000001,"end":68.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.03284375,"end":73.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.94346875000001,"end":75.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.52971875,"end":83.17409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.57909375,"end":86.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.02159375000001,"end":90.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.40909375000001,"end":93.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.15971875000001,"end":101.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.82096875,"end":104.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.79096875,"end":105.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.71909375000001,"end":106.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.19159375000001,"end":107.27159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.44034375000001,"end":107.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.49096875000001,"end":110.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.13596875,"end":112.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.57034375,"end":114.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.98346875,"end":116.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.85221875,"end":122.79659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.70784375000001,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.44534375,"end":130.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.42409375,"end":131.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.90909375,"end":138.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.35534375,"end":150.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.30846875,"end":143.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.60659375,"end":155.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.75846875000002,"end":150.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.51721875,"end":158.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.31846875000002,"end":165.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.65909375,"end":167.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.00471875000002,"end":169.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.40534375000001,"end":176.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.40846875,"end":177.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.62346875,"end":178.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.74971875,"end":181.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.90971875000002,"end":184.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.18784375,"end":188.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.57596875000002,"end":184.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.84159375000002,"end":186.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.09846875000002,"end":190.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.46096875,"end":193.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.95846875,"end":194.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.94971875000002,"end":200.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.31596875000002,"end":203.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.25221875000003,"end":211.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.96409375000002,"end":214.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.25471875000002,"end":220.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.00909375,"end":226.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.35846875000001,"end":232.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.60221875000002,"end":234.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.76221875000002,"end":235.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.69409375,"end":241.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.93409375000002,"end":245.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.45721875,"end":246.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.13596875000002,"end":248.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.65034375000002,"end":249.78096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.25784375,"end":252.32909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.76784375000003,"end":255.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.31596875000002,"end":255.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.33284375000002,"end":258.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.65346875000003,"end":256.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.17659375,"end":257.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.38721875,"end":259.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.80471875,"end":262.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.97721875,"end":266.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.14971875000003,"end":266.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.36909375,"end":269.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.38971875000004,"end":275.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.03096875,"end":275.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.68409375000005,"end":281.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.13971875000004,"end":276.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.48471875,"end":285.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.77534375,"end":289.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.58096875,"end":288.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.09096875,"end":292.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.67721875,"end":293.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.21284375000005,"end":295.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.19971875000005,"end":297.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.38096875,"end":300.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.72659375,"end":302.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.51096875,"end":305.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.25721875,"end":308.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.74221875,"end":309.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.24409375000005,"end":311.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.79659375,"end":312.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.36159375,"end":317.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.44596875,"end":314.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.93909375000004,"end":320.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.98096875000005,"end":328.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.97534375000004,"end":331.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.58659375,"end":336.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.24409375000005,"end":339.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.65284375000005,"end":342.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.65659375,"end":344.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.56346875,"end":346.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.45346875,"end":349.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.07721875000004,"end":353.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.16971875,"end":355.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.94159375000004,"end":357.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.94971875000005,"end":359.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.97471875,"end":362.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.46784375000004,"end":368.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.74971875,"end":369.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.79159375,"end":372.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.46221875000003,"end":376.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.86221875,"end":380.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.55784375,"end":383.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.24096875000004,"end":386.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.72159375,"end":388.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.35409375,"end":391.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.81784375,"end":393.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.84284375000004,"end":394.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.26034375,"end":398.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.41596875000005,"end":398.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.98971875,"end":399.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.02346875,"end":400.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.68971875000005,"end":408.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.10221875,"end":408.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.77721875000003,"end":408.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.96284375000005,"end":411.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.01721875000004,"end":412.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.48534375,"end":415.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.89846875,"end":419.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.77971875000003,"end":420.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.64034375,"end":422.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.17159375,"end":427.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.67284375,"end":431.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.01409375000003,"end":438.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.10159375,"end":439.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.79346875000005,"end":447.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.89409375,"end":447.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.11284375,"end":449.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.17159375000006,"end":451.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.63971875000004,"end":454.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.45784375000005,"end":466.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.72159375,"end":471.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.58159375,"end":473.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.81346875,"end":476.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.39096875,"end":478.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.58909375,"end":480.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.74909375000004,"end":486.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.96784375000004,"end":486.87471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.97596875000005,"end":486.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.29659375000006,"end":487.68471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.41034375000004,"end":489.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.73909375000005,"end":490.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.77284375000005,"end":491.56596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.953,"end":26.14,"text":"他講完再處理好不好剛剛都六十幾分貝而已主席可以嗎好像耽誤時間的不是我吧前面主席在主持議事的時候我們都尊重嘛"},{"start":27.521,"end":42.775,"text":"委員諮詢了快半個小時,你沒制止我們靜靜的在等,一句話都沒有非常尊重主席、議事的處理希望這個基本的文明跟秩序,在未完委員會可以繼續貫徹好,來請部長委員好"},{"start":52.766,"end":72.497,"text":"部長,我想基層護理同仁的福利跟他的心聲,向來是我長期關注的事情上個會期針對這件事情,也有跟部長幫基層的護理師請命部長也有做一些承諾,這個我們等一下再來講"},{"start":73.971,"end":101.023,"text":"但是現在大家更關心的事情是說護理人員近10年離職離居空缺率不斷的升高那部長看起來好像也蠻認真的有打電話去問各個醫院說護理師現在的待遇如何那顯然部長應該也是肯認整個基本上面的勞動環境是護理師是不是繼續願意留在工作崗位上面"},{"start":102.009,"end":127.663,"text":"一個最重要的原因,我這樣說沒有錯吧?是對嗎?非常重要的原因好,非常重要的原因,那我們就來看賴清德總統選總統的時候,說那個護病筆要入法他那個時候講的稍微抽象一點,說兩年或者是他任內賴清德總統的這個政治承諾,部長會不會跳票?"},{"start":129.682,"end":149.209,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們一定努力所以我們先用獎勵那獎勵的比例現在奇怪怎麼部長現在講的跟賴清德當初提出來的競選政見差這麼多那個部長不好意思就是你如果要做其他的政治宣言你去開記者會"},{"start":152.11,"end":178.224,"text":"這裡尋答就針對問題回答我的問題非常明確我想我們會一直溝通特別是跟醫院因為要充實護理人員請你聽我的問題回答好嗎好賴清德講了這個話兩年會任內護病筆錄法這個政治承諾會不會跳票我想在他特別會面有一個兩年內跟任內的這個我想我們會盡量來完成會盡量來完成跳票誰要負責"},{"start":179.815,"end":203.225,"text":"是你的責任還是賴清德的責任?那就是我工作不力對,就是你工作不力你很有肩膀,自己把他扛起來但我也幫你講一句話開這個支票的是賴清德當初這個支票開出來了以後,站在你旁邊的這位市長非常會打蛇隨棍上"},{"start":204.698,"end":220.307,"text":"配合當初副總統要選總統的政見趕快出來表示就是2023年11月20號的表示逐字是這樣講的最快今年年底行政程序決定出最終的版本"},{"start":221.227,"end":236.277,"text":"他發話的時間是2023年11月20號最快今年年底就會最終版本最快有望明年上路就2024年上路那顯然到現在是沒有上路是不是飄飄我補充一下這個是應該是三班戶並比的標準"},{"start":242.06,"end":246.768,"text":"三班戶邊筆的標準不是入法那現在如果沒有符合這個標準的話現在沒有符合這個標準有什麼狀況"},{"start":252.862,"end":281.078,"text":"不是 這個就是說標準定案是 那如果沒有符合標準會造成什麼狀況我們是在2024年的奇怪 我這麼簡單的問題你都可以繞來繞去現在我的問題很明確我們現在是用獎勵所以你還是沒有回答我的問題嗎是有效果的你現在定一個標準嘛你現在就定一個標準嘛我的問題是沒有符合這個標準的法律效果是什麼"},{"start":282.54,"end":288.782,"text":"那你就直接回答沒有法律效果就好了嘛這麼簡單的問題寫來寫去這麼簡單的問題繞來繞去就是沒有法律效果嘛如果用獎勵的方式會有用的話現在的情況會這樣嗎當初那個清德是說用獎勵的方式嗎"},{"start":309.022,"end":335.479,"text":"這樣對嗎?選前騙票?選後跳票?這樣對嗎?這個就是基層護理同仁他們的心聲這個就是基層護理同仁的心聲這個我們一定努力但是這個要跟醫院來配合就是也要聽聽醫院看看他能不能做得到做不到所以嘛這就是等到2024年等到票投完了以後薛瑞元才講大實話嘛"},{"start":337.298,"end":361.44,"text":"沒有辦法入法沒有時程選前一套選後一套對比的這麼清楚莫此為勝這為什麼大家不滿理由就是這個去年的時候五一勞動節集成的醫護就出來喊沒有達標也沒有罰則這是為什麼去年在問法委員會問這題"},{"start":363.633,"end":385.901,"text":"在問完委員會問這題問完了以後然後呢然後就沒有然後了嘛繼續賴題啊就像卓榮泰講的啊我們是用獎勵的方式啊看了令人瞠目結舌啊我很希望2023年的時候賴清德總統啊是誠實的告訴全國人民啊我打算用獎勵的方式啊"},{"start":387.112,"end":414.817,"text":"來處理三班互併比的問題啊而不是在選前的時候講一套選後的時候跳票跳票完了推一個行政院院長出來厚著臉皮講我是用獎勵的方式喔報告委員因為時間還沒到啦我們會盡量來努力OK好沒關係有一件事情是時間到了我去年質詢就跟你講啊說專科護理師沒有拿到"},{"start":415.916,"end":437.522,"text":"然後你說你一定會按照衛福部的規定去發放有嗎今年一月開始會發沒有啦今年一月是今年一月的事情啊去年該給人家的到現在都沒給啊我去年就是在問去年該給沒給的啊該給沒給的啊藉著清償期還不履行限於幾副職員然後你跟我說今年會給"},{"start":439.864,"end":466.033,"text":"去年有啊 去年我們二七是給一般急性病房的沒有 所以我就要你先停一下好不好我如果今天沒有得到護理師的陳情我今天會傻傻的站在這邊質詢喔你們跟我說會做 那我就一定會去追蹤嘛我追蹤出來的結果就沒有嘛所以才會陳情到我這邊來嘛現實上是什麼 現實上就沒領到啊"},{"start":467.882,"end":485.721,"text":"這每一家醫院的護理師我全部都去check過啦部長 質詢的時間到了這涉及到你的承諾這也到齊了 這不是還沒到齊的事情啊回去清查 一個禮拜以後給我書面回覆好不好好的 可以齁好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1041,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時47分）主席，可以了嗎？好像耽誤時間的不是我吧！前面主席在主持議事的時候，我們都尊重嘛，還有委員質詢了快半個小時你沒制止，我們靜靜的在等，一句話都沒有，非常尊重主席對議事的處理，希望這個基本的文明跟秩序，在衛環委員會可以繼續貫徹。來，請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。基層護理同仁的福利跟他們的心聲，向來是我長期關注的事情，上會期針對這件事情，我也有幫基層的護理師向部長請命，部長也做了一些承諾，這個我們等一下再講，現在大家更關心的事情是，護理人員近十年離職率及空缺率不斷升高，部長看起來好像也蠻認真的，有打電話去各個醫院詢問目前護理師的待遇如何，顯然部長應該也是肯認在整個基本面上，勞動環境是護理師願不願意繼續留在工作崗位上的一個最重要原因，我這樣說沒有錯吧？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛？"],["邱部長泰源：是非常重要的原因。"],["黃委員國昌：好，非常重要的原因，那我們就來看，賴清德總統選總統時說護病比要入法，他那個時候講的稍微抽象一點，表示兩年或者在他任內。部長，賴清德總統的政治承諾會不會跳票？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，我們一定努力，目前我們是先用獎勵方式，獎勵的比例現在……"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪！怎麼部長現在講的，跟賴清德當初提出來的競選政見差這麼多？"],["邱部長泰源：醫學中心……"],["黃委員國昌：部長，不好意思，如果要做其他的政治宣言，你去開記者會，這裡的詢答就是針對問題回答，我的問題非常明確……"],["邱部長泰源：好，我想我們會一直溝通，特別是跟醫院，因為要充實護理人員……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！請你聽我的問題回答，好嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：好。"],["黃委員國昌：賴清德講的這個話，是兩年或其任內護病比入法，這個政治承諾會不會跳票？"],["邱部長泰源：我想他後面特別有提到兩年內跟任內的時限，我們會儘量來完成。"],["黃委員國昌：會儘量來完成？那跳票誰要負責？是你的責任，還是賴清德的責任？"],["邱部長泰源：那就是我工作不力。"],["黃委員國昌：是你工作不力？你很有肩膀，自己把它扛起來，但我也幫你講一句話，開這個支票的是賴清德，當初這個支票開出來以後，站在你旁邊的這位司長非常會打蛇隨棍上，哇！配合當初副總統競選總統的政見，趕快在2023年11月20號出來表示，他的逐字是這樣講的：最快今年年底行政程序決定出最終版本。他發話的時間是2023年11月20號，表示最快該年年底就會有最終版本，然後最快有望在明年上路，也就是2024年上路，但顯然到現在是沒有上路，是不是跳票了？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我補充一下，這個應該是三班護病比的標準。"],["黃委員國昌：三班護病比的標準？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：不是入法、不是入法，這是三班護病比的標準。"],["黃委員國昌：現在如果沒有符合這個標準……"],["蔡司長淑鳳：現在已經上路啦！"],["黃委員國昌：對，現在沒有符合這個標準的話，會有什麼狀況？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：不是，這個就是說標準定案，我們是……"],["黃委員國昌：如果沒有符合標準，會造成什麼狀況？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：我們是在2024年的……"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪，我這麼簡單的問題，你都可以繞來繞去，現在我的問題很明確……"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我們現在是用獎勵，已經……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以你還是沒有回答我的問題……"],["邱部長泰源：而且是有效果的、是有效果的。"],["黃委員國昌：你現在定一個標準……"],["邱部長泰源：我們現在沒有罰……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！你現在就定一個標準，我的問題是，沒有符合這個標準的法律效果是什麼？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：沒有法律效果。"],["黃委員國昌：那你就直接回答沒有法律效果就好了嘛！這麼簡單的問題，繞來繞去！"],["邱部長泰源：我們有獎勵。"],["黃委員國昌：這麼簡單的問題，繞來繞去，就是沒有法律效果嘛！如果獎勵的方式有用的話，現在的情況會是這樣嗎？當初賴清德是說用獎勵的方式嗎？這樣對嗎？選前騙票，選後跳票，這樣對嗎？這個就是基層護理同仁的心聲啊！這個就是基層護理同仁的心聲！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，這個我們一定努力，但是這要跟醫院配合，也要聽聽看醫院能不能做得到。"],["黃委員國昌：所以就是等到2024年、等到票投完了以後，薛瑞元才講大實話：沒有辦法，入法沒有時程。選前一套，選後一套，對比得這麼清楚，莫此為甚啊！為什麼大家不滿？理由就是這個嘛！去年五一勞動節，基層醫護就出來喊說：沒有達標也沒有罰則。這就是為什麼去年我在衛環委員會問這題嘛！在衛環委員會問了這題以後，然後呢？然後就沒有然後了嘛！繼續賴皮啊！就像卓榮泰講的：我們是用獎勵的方式。看得令人瞠目結舌！我很希望2023年賴清德總統是誠實的告訴全國人民，打算用獎勵的方式來處理三班護病比的問題，而不是在選前講一套，選後跳票；跳票完了，推一個行政院院長出來厚著臉皮講：我是用獎勵的方式！"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，因為時間還沒到，我們會儘量來努力。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，沒關係，但有一件事情是時間到了，這我去年質詢時就跟你講了，專科護理師沒有拿到津貼，然後你說你一定會按照衛福部的規定發放，有嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：今年1月開始會發放。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！今年1月是今年1月的事情，去年該給人家的，到現在都沒給啊！我去年就是問去年該給而沒給的啊！該給沒給的，屆了清償期還不履行，現已給付遲延，然後你跟我說今年會給？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：去年有啊！去年27億是給一般急性病房，17億是給專科……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，你先停一下，好不好？今天如果我沒有得到護理師的陳情，會傻傻的站在這邊質詢？你們跟我說會做，我就一定會去追蹤，但我追蹤出來的結果就沒有嘛！所以才會陳情到我這邊來，現實上是什麼？現實上就是沒領到啊！每一家醫院的護理師我全部都去check過了。部長，我的質詢時間到了，這涉及到你的承諾，也已經到期了，這不是還沒到期的事情，回去清查，一個禮拜後給我書面回復，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好的。"],["黃委員國昌：可以喔？"],["邱部長泰源：我們再清查，一定。"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","接續請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","羅智強","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","劉建國","陳培瑜","楊曜","王義川"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00005"}}},{"id":"159164","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159164","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f0e89a356767262300aae3c1a04a00b1b86f8ffab8834d983fd113443f1ac9aa35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:39:30 - 12:46:44","影片長度":"00:07:14","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【如遇加開院會本次會議取消，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:39:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:46:44+08:00","duration":434,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.26659375,"end":5.464718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.434093750000002,"end":20.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.04034375,"end":21.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.07409375,"end":21.985343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.31409375,"end":26.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.26721875,"end":28.364093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.60034375,"end":32.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.422843750000002,"end":31.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.14409375,"end":34.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.228468750000005,"end":32.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.32534375,"end":34.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.50659375,"end":34.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.57409375,"end":34.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.59096875,"end":34.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.92846875,"end":58.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.603468750000005,"end":36.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.50596875,"end":39.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.63159375,"end":45.407843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.43284375,"end":48.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.710968750000006,"end":50.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.22971875,"end":52.377218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.799093750000004,"end":53.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.42659375,"end":72.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.40034375,"end":66.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.27284375,"end":72.64409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.64409375000001,"end":77.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.74846875,"end":81.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.97971875,"end":91.61159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.66284375000001,"end":88.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.91096875000001,"end":94.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.00346875000001,"end":95.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.55596875,"end":97.09596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.58534375,"end":97.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.32784375,"end":100.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.72409375000001,"end":103.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.95971875000001,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.09034375,"end":109.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.86221875000001,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.91284375000001,"end":108.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.27971875,"end":110.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.28784375000001,"end":112.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.14409375000001,"end":114.39284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.35034375000001,"end":118.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.73784375000001,"end":122.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.21846875000001,"end":124.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.86784375,"end":127.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.87159375000002,"end":129.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.13721875000002,"end":132.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.84971875000002,"end":136.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.85346875000002,"end":144.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.97034375,"end":148.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.12971875000002,"end":151.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.95659375,"end":156.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.91784375,"end":159.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.75284375,"end":167.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.15221875,"end":183.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.62659375,"end":184.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.64346875,"end":187.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.77846875,"end":185.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.32221875000002,"end":191.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.25409375,"end":192.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.07659375,"end":198.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.10971875,"end":199.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.96596875,"end":206.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.64846875,"end":209.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.76596875,"end":216.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.25034375,"end":224.90721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.12659375,"end":226.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.35409375,"end":229.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.15096875,"end":233.78346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.79596875000001,"end":239.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.74034375000002,"end":243.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.80721875,"end":246.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.44784375,"end":249.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.48971875,"end":251.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.17721875,"end":253.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.05034375000002,"end":254.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.40034375000002,"end":255.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.21034375,"end":257.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.89784375,"end":261.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.91409375,"end":264.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.06971875,"end":272.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.59159375,"end":275.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.27471875000003,"end":277.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.84409375,"end":278.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.19409375000004,"end":280.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.24034375,"end":281.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.73784375,"end":284.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.76284375,"end":284.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.77971875000003,"end":293.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.79659375,"end":285.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.60596875000005,"end":298.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.16159375,"end":302.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.86159375,"end":302.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.34659375,"end":302.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.88659375000003,"end":303.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.62909375000004,"end":304.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.79784375,"end":304.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.21534375000005,"end":312.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.38721875000005,"end":312.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.99471875,"end":313.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.83846875,"end":315.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.54284375000003,"end":316.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.79596875000004,"end":316.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.87596875,"end":320.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.89284375,"end":317.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.51659375,"end":323.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.09846875,"end":331.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.00409375000004,"end":336.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.36659375000005,"end":337.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.96971875,"end":340.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.54721875,"end":346.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.43659375000004,"end":349.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.95096875,"end":355.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.36784375,"end":360.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.32471875000005,"end":362.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.45534375,"end":363.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.34534375000004,"end":365.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.43784375,"end":367.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.27721875000003,"end":373.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.91346875000005,"end":374.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.53346875,"end":378.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.58784375000005,"end":379.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.76471875000004,"end":383.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.66721875,"end":384.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.44346875,"end":384.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.36721875,"end":387.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.66659375,"end":388.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.16846875000005,"end":389.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.36659375000005,"end":390.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.56471875,"end":396.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.45409375,"end":399.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.17096875000004,"end":402.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.55034375,"end":407.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.61284375,"end":412.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.74284375,"end":422.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.05346875000004,"end":423.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.17159375,"end":428.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.85846875000004,"end":428.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.89221875000004,"end":430.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.47846875000005,"end":430.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.57971875000004,"end":430.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.61346875000004,"end":430.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.66409375,"end":434.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.85784375000003,"end":433.44846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.315,"end":25.163,"text":"主席有請部長委員好 部長好請問衛福部今年通過預算是多少那跟去年相比增加多少增加大概"},{"start":29.056,"end":39.059,"text":"300多億今年通過將近3700億因為被核酸了11億今年差不多3700億左右所以總共增加就算被核酸了11億也增加300多億我再請教部長我們增加很多服務的量我肯定衛福部所以一個一個來肯定你"},{"start":54.085,"end":77.754,"text":"來 我想請教部長護理人員夜班津貼這筆預算是編在哪裡我告訴你好不好是編在護理人力政策準備中長程計畫而這個計畫是列在護理及健康照護業務向下沒錯嘛 對不對好 那我想請問你護理及健康照護業務今年預算是多少79.87億嘛 對不對"},{"start":85.191,"end":102.314,"text":"沒錯啦 如果我講錯你再更正我 後來補給我啦這是預算上面的啦去年編列多少4.78億啦對不對沒錯吧那我想請問今年護理及健康照護業務預算被刪了多少預算被刪了多少護理及健康照護業務27002700嗎一毛都沒刪啦"},{"start":116.48,"end":144.09,"text":"你講是統三嘛 我講是這個項目三多少統三是你們要去調整的啦一毛都沒三嘛 沒錯吧然後凍結了多少 凍結了多少550萬啦 我告訴你啦 沒錯吧550萬啦 而且喔是國民黨 民進黨 民眾黨都有提案凍結喔不是只有在野黨提案凍結喔提案凍結的部分連民進黨也有喔"},{"start":144.994,"end":165.247,"text":"那我就想請教您 部長請教我剛剛講的都沒錯吧 部長事事不敢是捅山捅洞 應該就是這個數目好啊 謝謝您 謝謝您告訴我然後我們部長上次帶衛福部官員開記者會當時趙復思司長 蔡淑鳳司長你怎麼講的"},{"start":169.592,"end":192.591,"text":"說護理人力政策準備中長程計畫今年編號47億不分醫院層級及病房類別所有護理人員均可以拿到一樣的獎勵預算到位就可以罰房並回溯至今年1月沒錯吧 沒錯吧 對不對那我想請問部長急診優設是藍白山預算造成的嗎 是不是"},{"start":194.127,"end":208.212,"text":"前陣子發生急診擁捨的問題是藍白三預算造成的嗎是不是急診擁捨應該是長久以來各種因素的問題我真的非常非常謝謝也敬佩部長謝謝你啊謝謝你打臉你的次長呂健德"},{"start":210.796,"end":229.201,"text":"我跟你講 這好好管管你的次長 次長怎麼講 他在上節目說啊這個急診優設行政院編了50億的護理業班津貼但是預算已經編了 送到立法院 被砍 被刪 被動所以他推給藍白三預算耶部長我今天真的認真肯定也謝謝你啊"},{"start":234.858,"end":260.554,"text":"你知道這個謠言到處放還是政府官員去放以及所有側翼引用這個謠言到處去攻擊別人啊實際上已經講過了從最大的項目最大的項目衛福部的預算就是增加了300億啊對不對那從第二個護理人力政策整備中長城計畫實際上護理健康照顧業務"},{"start":266.756,"end":279.77,"text":"79.87億比去年4.78億 增加75億而且一毛未三 凍結550萬結果你的次長竟然可以說這個急診用色是因為藍白 篩預算 砍預算 凍預算"},{"start":282.802,"end":300.699,"text":"所以我謝謝部長當然我們也期待因為統山統棟還是在一些核定的計畫統山統棟難道你今天要告訴統山統棟你打算把統山統棟的項目拿去動護理人員的夜班津貼嗎因為必須要它穩定以後我們才敢"},{"start":303.823,"end":331.682,"text":"第一個嘛 捅山捅洞 你打算去拿去動護理人員的夜班津貼嗎沒有嘛 我直接幫你講嘛 對不對所以我回頭要跟部長說沒關係啦 部長我跟你講 我今天到現在為止是肯定你啦 為什麼我也拜託那一次而已 我直接講你再說藍白三預算 羅志強三護理人員津貼預算 醫護預算你講一次我告一次 你相不相信"},{"start":334.039,"end":359.315,"text":"我跟他說真的可惡至極無良到一個程度我也最後跟部長做一個總結我就結束今天急診擁捨的問題很嚴重剛剛我看前面幾個委員都有質詢啊我也希望部長能夠好好去做我在大安區是一步一步的挨家挨戶的拜訪這段時間我就遇到一個離職的護理師告訴我部長你就聽聽他的心聲"},{"start":361.357,"end":386.947,"text":"他說啊他在當護理師的時候流產三次啊流產三次其中一次是值班的時候大出血差點連命都沒有他告訴我他說我熱愛護理師工作啊可是我為什麼要離開他說不只是工作跟收入這個不合理更重要的是"},{"start":387.711,"end":411.73,"text":"他的工作的壓力不合理幾乎壓垮了很多的護理師像他這樣資深的護理師最後選擇離開就會開始形成惡性循環不是嗎離開以後結果護理人手短缺壓力更大壓垮更多護理人員然後更多護理人員移開壓力更大再壓垮更多護理人員"},{"start":413.179,"end":424.07,"text":"這個惡性循環才是剛剛我們部長講的急診優設長期很多的問題有待我們衛福部跟所有各院所解決嘛 對不對所以謝謝認真解決問題然後也請這個呂次長不要造謠 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1008,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時39分）主席，有請部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。請問衛福部今年通過的預算是多少？跟去年相比增加多少？"],["邱部長泰源：增加了大概三百多億元。"],["羅委員智強：今年通過將近3,700億元。"],["邱部長泰源：因為被核刪了11億元。"],["羅委員智強：今年差不多3,700億元左右，就算被刪了11億元也增加三百多億元，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是，但是跟委員報告，我們真的是增加很多服務的量能。"],["羅委員智強：對，我肯定衛福部啦！所以一個一個來肯定你，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝！"],["羅委員智強：我想請教部長，護理人員夜班津貼這筆預算是編在哪裡？我告訴你，是編在「護理人力政策整備中長程計畫」，而這個計畫是列在「護理及健康照護業務」項下，沒錯嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["羅委員智強：那我想請問你，「護理及健康照護業務」今年的預算是多少？79.87億，對不對？沒錯啦！如果我講錯，你再更正，這是預算上面的。去年編列多少？4.78億，對不對？沒錯吧？請問今年「護理及健康照護業務」預算被刪了多少？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：2,700萬。"],["羅委員智強：2,700萬嗎？一毛都沒刪啦！"],["蔡司長淑鳳：那個是統刪。"],["羅委員智強：你講的是統刪，我問的是這個項目刪多少，統刪是你們要去調整的，一毛都沒刪嘛！沒錯吧？再請問凍結了多少？我告訴你啦！凍結了550萬元，沒錯吧？而且是國民黨、民進黨、民眾黨都有提案凍結，不是只有在野黨提案凍結喔！提案凍結的部分連民進黨也有喔！那我就想請教部長，我剛剛講的都沒錯吧？"],["邱部長泰源：不管是統刪、統凍，應該就是這個數目。"],["羅委員智強：謝謝您告訴我。上次衛福部官員開記者會，當時照護司蔡淑鳳司長是怎麼講的？說是「護理人力政策整備中長程計畫」今年編列47億元，不分醫院層級及病房類別，所有護理人員均可以拿到一樣的獎勵，預算到位就可以發放，並回溯至今年1月，沒錯吧？"],["邱部長泰源：沒錯。"],["羅委員智強：那我想請問部長，急診壅塞是藍白刪預算造成的嗎？是不是？前陣子發生急診壅塞的問題是藍白刪預算造成的嗎？是不是？"],["邱部長泰源：急診壅塞應該是長久以來各種因素的問題。"],["羅委員智強：我真的非常非常謝謝也敬佩部長，謝謝你啊！謝謝你打臉你的次長呂建德。我跟你講真的要好好管管你的次長，你的次長怎麼講的？他在上節目時說這個急診壅塞，行政院編了50億元的護理夜班津貼，預算已經編了，但是送到立法院被砍、被刪、被凍，所以他是推給藍白刪預算耶！部長，我今天真的肯定你、也謝謝你啊！你知道這個謠言到處放，還是由政府官員去放，已經引用這個謠言到處去攻擊別人，實際情況已經講過了，從最大的項目即衛福部的預算就增加了300億元，對不對？第二個是「護理人力政策整備中長程計畫」，實際上「護理及健康照護業務」編了79.87億元，比去年的4.78億元增加了75億元，而且一毛未刪，只凍結550萬元，結果你的次長竟然可以說急診壅塞是因為藍白刪預算、砍預算、凍預算導致，所以我謝謝部長。"],["邱部長泰源：但我們也期待，因為統刪、統凍還是在……"],["羅委員智強：難道你今天要告訴我，你打算把統刪、統凍的項目拿去凍護理人員的夜班津貼嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：因為必須要它穩定以後我們才敢來發啊！"],["羅委員智強：不是啊！部長，我就問你嘛！第一個，你打算把統刪統凍拿去凍護理人員的夜班津貼嗎？我直接幫你講沒有嘛！對不對？所以我回頭要跟部長說……"],["邱部長泰源：就是說花的時機啦！"],["羅委員智強：沒關係，部長，我跟你講，今天到現在為止，我是肯定你啦！為什麼？我也拜託那些側翼，我直接講，你再說藍白刪預算，羅智強刪護理人員津貼預算、醫護預算，你講一次我告一次，你相不相信？我跟大家說，真的可惡至極！無良到一個程度！","我最後跟部長做一個總結就結束，今天急診壅塞的問題很嚴重，剛才我看到前面幾位委員都有質詢，我也希望部長能夠好好去做。這段時間我在大安區是一步一步的、挨家挨戶的拜訪，遇到一個離職的護理師告訴我，部長你就聽聽她的心聲。她說在當護理師的時候流產3次，其中一次是值班的時候大出血，差點連命都沒有。她告訴我說她熱愛護理師工作，可是為什麼要離開？她說不止是工作跟收入不合理，更重要的是工作的壓力不合理，幾乎壓垮了很多的護理師，她說像她這樣資深的護理師最後選擇離開，就會開始形成惡性循環，不是嗎？離開以後的結果是護理人手短缺，壓力更大，壓垮更多護理人員，然後呢？更多護理人員離開，壓力更大，再壓垮更多護理人員。這個惡性循環才是剛剛我們部長講的，急診壅塞是長期以來很多的問題，有待我們衛福部跟所有院所解決嘛，對不對？所以謝謝啊！認真解決問題，然後也請這位呂次長不要造謠。謝謝！"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝！也拜託委員儘量全力來支持我們相關的事情。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員，謝謝部長。","請黃國昌委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","羅智強","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","劉建國","陳培瑜","楊曜","王義川"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00005"}}},{"id":"159163","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159163","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f73a1c1398f68c155ba53b8a5773cfe3d86f8ffab8834d98341d823e46ab58e485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:38:08 - 12:43:54","影片長度":"00:05:46","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:38:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:43:54+08:00","duration":346,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.57784375,"end":11.809718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.04596875,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.176593750000002,"end":14.290343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.89346875,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.04096875,"end":27.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.891593750000002,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.22659375,"end":44.243468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.03534375,"end":58.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.35096875000001,"end":85.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.38034375000001,"end":92.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.40034375,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.64846875,"end":110.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.03909375,"end":146.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.58596875,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.03284375,"end":155.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.25534375,"end":158.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.77409375000002,"end":158.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.80784375000002,"end":172.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.97221875,"end":160.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.23784375,"end":161.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.96659375000002,"end":169.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.06721875000002,"end":192.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.14596875,"end":183.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.44909375,"end":187.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.19909375,"end":203.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.06659375,"end":205.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.13409375,"end":204.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.47971875000002,"end":209.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.65659375,"end":235.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.44034375,"end":215.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.44846875000002,"end":217.71846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.76846875,"end":221.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.18971875000003,"end":226.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.33596875,"end":283.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.23846875,"end":238.82909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.65596875000003,"end":239.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.60409375,"end":247.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.63346875000002,"end":249.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.94909375,"end":255.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.50971875,"end":257.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.85159375,"end":286.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.72034375000004,"end":297.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.97596875,"end":299.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.59596875,"end":300.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.86596875000004,"end":300.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.49034375,"end":300.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.50284375,"end":303.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.08471875000004,"end":305.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.09284375000004,"end":308.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.72534375000004,"end":315.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.61534375,"end":311.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.25159375000004,"end":319.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.50846875,"end":344.12909375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.21,"text":"謝謝主席請葉次長好有請葉次長次長好委員好這個新年基本法齁這個連同本席的提案有18個唯獨沒有這個行政院的版本請問一下行政院的版本誰會提出來"},{"start":28.055,"end":57.638,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在布版的草案已經擬定完成藍院裡面牽扯到很多其他部會的這個權責還有這個地方政府所以我們現在正在跟地方政府還有各部會在做協調我們預計在一個月內完成協調之後就會把我們的布版會報院報行政院然後預告然後我們預計在這個會期之內會有院版的出爐這樣子所以這個會期有院版出來那可能要"},{"start":58.758,"end":85.428,"text":"這個會期不知道會不會討論到請我們召委排案可能才討論得到這個我給你看兩張新聞一個是2024年的清明協催生青年基本法一個是2025年的那也是青年團體希望青年基本法能夠推出來所以2024、2025其實你看一年的時間又過去了時間是過很快再請教一下次長"},{"start":86.528,"end":109.979,"text":"去年大概也這個時候五月份我們有辦了一個青年基本法的公聽會那這一年來這個公聽會結束之後我們做了哪些事情我們其實是收集很多各界的意見特別是這個法因為我們也要參酌其他國家的法律其實花比較多時間在這方面的研究"},{"start":112.321,"end":133.835,"text":"這個研究時間太久了雖然次長您是學者但是我是認為這個時間拉得太長了去年就在呼籲去年也開了公聽會那結果呢到了今年如果不是我們召委今天排案的話不知道哪時候才能討論到這個青年基本法那請教一下次長我們之前有一個主管青年事務的部會叫青輔會"},{"start":134.936,"end":155.367,"text":"那不過在這個滿久執政的時候呢就不見了變成這個教育部的這個青年署那所以我們現在在一個組織這個青年事務的就是我們教育部的青年署對不對現在專責單位就是教育部我們把它位階提高到教育部教育部 未來修法現在是青年署嗎"},{"start":157.564,"end":172.283,"text":"現在是 委員是說現在現在是青年署那你說好 你要修法把它提高到教育部的意義是在哪裡是青年署不見了嗎青年署還在那提高到教育部的意義是什麼"},{"start":173.463,"end":191.472,"text":"就是因為這裡面有第一個這裡面有蠻多是跟其他部會因為這個裡面會訂規範的其他部會要做的事情所以如果是青年署的層級的話它可能不夠所以我們就由教育部來做為這個我們的中央的主管機關"},{"start":193.293,"end":205.268,"text":"因為本來是教育部的青年署那現在你說是教育部那所以其實我還是不太清楚說你未接提高到教育部其實我還覺得還不夠啊你是教育部的部長"},{"start":207.096,"end":232.849,"text":"來主持這一個不是因為剛才委員提到就是說這裡面還有很多的業務是牽扯到其他部會的所以我們另外還有一條會定就是說由行政院院長由院長來召開這個青年的事務的協調會報那這裡面涵蓋的青年代表還有各部會的這個機關的首長們然後來那個大概定期來開這個會那跨部會的跟跨部會有關的這個青年事務就由院長召開這個會報來協調"},{"start":235.29,"end":258.263,"text":"跨部會有這個所謂的青年事務協調匯報之類的是院長來主持然後呢那其他的這一個比如說有關青年事務發展的就在你們教育部這邊那其他的各部會他們有目前他們負責有關青年部分的就由他們來主管就對了那我請教一下"},{"start":258.663,"end":285.774,"text":"因為這個青年基本法很多的青年團體有五大訴求一個青年身份的法制化那就是有關年齡嘛那你們現在我看是以18到35歲嘛我的版本當然比較15啦那沒有關係這個都還可以討論各縣市成立青年專責機關因為現在我看各個縣市也都有青年局的嘛然後呢定期公佈青年政策白皮書這個有在做嗎"},{"start":287.092,"end":314.793,"text":"有 有在做 現在正在做每年都在做嗎我們正在努力我們現在正在預計在2026嘛因為2026會出爐2026 明年對 明年會出爐政府定期召開青年國事會議這個有在有想要 有要準備嗎我們在研擬中啦研擬中也在研擬中喔所以意見有的我想這個我們"},{"start":316.294,"end":343.74,"text":"大多數往納入 但有一些我們可能還在研擬當中對啊 因為賴總統他其實在選前就提到這個上任後政府要發布這個青年政策白皮書那這樣聽起來是明年的事情這個我也是覺得有點delay了那我也是希望說這一個青年們或是說我們這麼多的立委不分黨派都有在關心這件事情那教育部動作再加速 再快一點 好吧好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":859,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時38分）謝謝主席。請葉次長。"],["主席：有請葉次長。"],["李委員坤城：次長好。"],["葉次長丙成：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：這個青年基本法連同本席的提案有18個，唯獨沒有行政院的版本，請問一下行政院的版本哪時候會提出來？"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，我們現在部版的草案已經擬定完成，因為裡面牽扯到很多其他部會的權責及各地方政府，所以我們現在正在跟地方政府還有各部會做協調，預計在一個月內完成協調，之後就會把我們的部版報行政院，然後預告，預計在這個會期之內會有院版出爐。"],["李委員坤城：所以這個會期有院版出來，但這個會期不知道會不會討論到，要請我們召委排案才可能討論得到。我給你看這兩則新聞，一個是2024年青年節催生青年基本法，一個是2025年的，那也是青年團體希望青年基本法能夠推出來，2024、2025，其實你看，一年的時間又過去了，時間是過很快。再請教一下次長，去年大概也是這個時候──5月份，當時我們有辦了一個青年基本法的公聽會，這個公聽會結束之後，這一年來你們做了哪些事情？"],["葉次長丙成：我們其實是蒐集很多各界的意見，特別是因為這個法我們也要參酌其他國家的法律，其實就是花比較多時間在這方面的研究。"],["李委員坤城：這個研究的時間太久了，雖然次長您是學者，但我是認為時間拉得太長了，去年就在呼籲、去年也開公聽會，結果呢？到了今年，如果不是我們召委今天排案的話，不知道哪時候才會討論到這個青年基本法。","再請教一下次長，我們之前有一個主管青年事務的部會叫青輔會，不過在馬英九執政的時候就不見了，變成教育部的青年署，所以我們現在這主責青年事務的就是我們教育部青年署，對不對？"],["葉次長丙成：現在的專責單位就是教育部，我們把位階提高到教育部。"],["李委員坤城：那是未來修法，現在是青年署嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：委員是說現在？"],["李委員坤城：現在。"],["葉次長丙成：現在是青年署。"],["李委員坤城：那你說你要修法把其位階提高到教育部的這個意義是在哪裡？是青年署不見了嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：青年署還在。"],["李委員坤城：青年署還在，那提高到教育部的意義是什麼？"],["葉次長丙成：第一個，因為這裡面有滿多是跟其他部會有關，因為這個裡面會訂定其他部會要做的事情……"],["李委員坤城：我知道。"],["葉次長丙成：所以如果是青年署層級的話可能不夠，所以我們就由教育部來作為我們中央的主管機關。"],["李委員坤城：因為本來是教育部的青年署，那現在你說是教育部，所以其實我還是不太清楚說你把它的位階提高到教育部……其實我是覺得還不夠啊！是教育部的部長來主持這一個……"],["葉次長丙成：不是，因為剛才委員提到，就是說這裡面還有很多的業務是牽扯到其他部會的，所以我們另外還有一條會規定說由行政院院長來召開這個青年事務的協調會報，這裡面涵蓋了青年代表及各部會機關的首長們，然後定期來開這個會，與跨部會有關的青年事務就由院長召開這個會報來協調。"],["李委員坤城：跨部會有所謂的青年事務協調會報之類的是由院長來主持？"],["葉次長丙成：是。"],["李委員坤城：其他的比如說有關青年事務發展的就在你們……"],["葉次長丙成：教育部這邊。"],["李委員坤城：其他的各部會目前有他們負責有關青年部分的就由他們來主管就對了？"],["葉次長丙成：對。"],["李委員坤城：那我請教一下，因為很多的青年團體對這個青年基本法有五大訴求，一個是青年身分的法制化，就是有關年齡，現在我看到的是18到35歲嘛，我的版本是15……那沒有關係，這個都還可以討論；各縣市成立青年專責機關，因為現在我看各個縣市也都有青年局了嘛；然後是定期公布青年政策白皮書，這個有在做嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：有，有在做，現在正在做。"],["李委員坤城：每年都在做嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：我們正在努力，我們預計在2026年會出爐。"],["李委員坤城：2026？明年？"],["葉次長丙成：對，明年。"],["李委員坤城：政府定期召開青年國是會議，這個有想要準備嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：我們在研擬中。"],["李委員坤城：有在研擬中？"],["葉次長丙成：大多數的意見我們都會納入，但有一些我們可能還在研擬當中。"],["李委員坤城：對，因為賴總統其實在選前就提到上任後政府要發布這個青年政策白皮書，這樣聽起來是明年的事情，這個我也是覺得有點delay了，因為很多青年或我們這麼多不分黨派的立委都有在關心這件事情，希望教育部的動作要再加速、再快一點，好不好？"],["葉次長丙成：好。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。次長請回。","接下來請何欣純委員，何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","我們請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","我們請洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","我們請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另有林楚茵委員提出書面質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-2","speakers":["林宜瑾","黃捷","林楚茵","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","林德福","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","范雲","吳思瑤","邱志偉","陳培瑜","李坤城"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基\n本法草案」案；三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；四、審查委員吳思瑤等\n47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；六、\n審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法\n草案」案；八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；九、審查委員王美惠等17人\n擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十一、審\n查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十二、審查委員葛如鈞等19人擬具「青年基本\n法草案」案；十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十四、審查委員魯明哲\n等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；\n十六、審查委員葉元之等 20 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十七、審查委員林德福等 20 人擬具\n「青年發展基本法草案」案；十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案 (僅進行\n詢答)","agenda_id":"1142601_00009"}}},{"id":"159162","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159162","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f88f5dae81e6bc2890aae3c1a04a00b1b86f8ffab8834d98374ad0faf363c552f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"12:07:16 - 12:39:24","影片長度":"00:32:08","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【如遇加開院會本次會議取消，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:07:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:39:24+08:00","duration":1928,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.08096875,"end":8.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.273468750000003,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.44471875,"end":69.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.63159375000001,"end":73.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.18409375,"end":73.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.46659375,"end":80.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.86221875000001,"end":84.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.32159375,"end":85.95846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.77721875,"end":88.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.87346875,"end":92.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.48909375000001,"end":99.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.20534375000001,"end":103.40721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.39034375,"end":103.82909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.64346875000001,"end":103.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.82909375000001,"end":104.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.47034375000001,"end":140.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.52784375000002,"end":147.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.20159375,"end":151.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.50096875,"end":153.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.26409375,"end":156.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.90096875,"end":160.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.92159375,"end":160.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.10721875000002,"end":160.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.01409375,"end":165.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.35159375,"end":162.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.43596875,"end":162.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.50346875,"end":162.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.63846875000002,"end":174.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.32471875000002,"end":172.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.55221875,"end":207.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.98534375000003,"end":215.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.03596875000002,"end":211.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.28846875000002,"end":217.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.07721875000001,"end":218.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.57471875000002,"end":220.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.64221875,"end":221.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.81909375,"end":227.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.02909375000002,"end":228.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.97409375,"end":229.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.52659375000002,"end":230.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.03284375,"end":250.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.60784375000003,"end":253.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.87721875000003,"end":256.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.51409375000003,"end":281.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.05846875000003,"end":290.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.78721875,"end":291.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.09096875,"end":294.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.03971875,"end":299.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.68034375,"end":318.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.93471875,"end":320.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.08659375,"end":320.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.80784375,"end":320.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.82471875000005,"end":320.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.84159375,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.24659375000005,"end":323.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.98471875,"end":332.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.04221875,"end":343.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.56784375,"end":360.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.32034375,"end":370.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.77909375,"end":382.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.24534375,"end":400.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.16659375,"end":420.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.12534375,"end":428.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.95971875000004,"end":431.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.46971875,"end":437.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.97096875000005,"end":439.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.68784375,"end":450.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.60596875000005,"end":466.23659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.76846875,"end":472.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.37909375000004,"end":473.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.18034375,"end":479.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.44971875000005,"end":480.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.66471875,"end":481.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.99784375,"end":488.59596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.30471875,"end":491.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.98784375,"end":521.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.26596875,"end":522.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.4597187500001,"end":549.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.0547187500001,"end":552.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.6997187500001,"end":561.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.04846875,"end":565.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.17471875,"end":588.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.0403437500001,"end":591.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.5672187499999,"end":606.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.91596875,"end":604.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":607.1597187500001,"end":610.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.4253437500001,"end":611.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.3997187500001,"end":615.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.67346875,"end":626.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.4140937500001,"end":627.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.0890937500001,"end":629.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":629.9578437499999,"end":632.8603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.8603437500001,"end":671.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.4678437499999,"end":633.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.1428437500001,"end":634.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.9697187500001,"end":635.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":637.3828437500001,"end":640.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.4709687500001,"end":640.5047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":652.5872187500001,"end":652.7390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.5715937500001,"end":672.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.32659375,"end":675.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.3347187500001,"end":678.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":679.77284375,"end":692.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.1272187500001,"end":681.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":692.2434687500001,"end":695.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.0365937500001,"end":698.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.5759687500001,"end":703.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.8115937500002,"end":703.4484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.9209687500002,"end":719.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":704.0053437500001,"end":704.2922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":719.8172187499999,"end":724.2553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.5590937500001,"end":775.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.24721875,"end":783.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":784.7690937500001,"end":788.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":789.2747187500001,"end":789.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":790.2703437499999,"end":790.9453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":791.3672187500001,"end":793.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.57784375,"end":821.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":822.50159375,"end":826.2647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":826.8047187500001,"end":884.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":885.8503437500001,"end":887.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":888.0947187500001,"end":899.6709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":899.70471875,"end":902.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":902.4384687500001,"end":903.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":903.94034375,"end":906.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":906.9778437500001,"end":962.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":963.67784375,"end":967.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":969.1284687500001,"end":985.4634687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":985.93596875,"end":987.2522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":987.85971875,"end":1007.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1007.5022187500001,"end":1026.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1026.9759687500002,"end":1028.0897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1028.4947187500002,"end":1034.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1034.60346875,"end":1036.2403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1036.8309687500002,"end":1088.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1089.00846875,"end":1097.2772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1091.15159375,"end":1098.2559687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1097.5472187500002,"end":1105.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1105.79909375,"end":1113.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1106.4065937500002,"end":1120.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1114.7090937500002,"end":1117.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1118.3878437500002,"end":1118.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1119.53534375,"end":1128.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1121.6278437500002,"end":1123.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1123.78784375,"end":1130.3353437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1129.25534375,"end":1130.1834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1130.3353437500002,"end":1131.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1131.8878437500002,"end":1142.6709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1142.8397187500002,"end":1146.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1146.67034375,"end":1150.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1150.7203437500002,"end":1155.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1155.1753437500001,"end":1158.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1158.07784375,"end":1160.8284687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1161.5372187500002,"end":1162.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1161.5540937500002,"end":1165.0472187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1164.25409375,"end":1177.4334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1177.5684687500002,"end":1187.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1187.6765937500002,"end":1190.6465937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1191.3047187500001,"end":1200.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1201.2947187500001,"end":1204.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1205.59784375,"end":1222.8440937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1224.44721875,"end":1228.3115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1228.96971875,"end":1233.2390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1233.1040937500002,"end":1233.1209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1233.2390937500002,"end":1235.6353437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1233.2728437500002,"end":1235.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1235.68596875,"end":1247.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1235.7703437500002,"end":1235.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1235.8884687500001,"end":1236.3609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1240.09034375,"end":1245.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1246.0809687500002,"end":1251.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1250.3840937500001,"end":1256.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1251.73409375,"end":1254.4847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1256.54346875,"end":1258.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1257.79221875,"end":1302.4265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1303.5234687500001,"end":1315.5047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1315.99409375,"end":1324.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1324.73534375,"end":1353.8953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1355.3465937500002,"end":1380.8953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1381.3340937500002,"end":1385.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1385.21534375,"end":1391.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1391.7628437500002,"end":1430.9803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1431.2840937500002,"end":1432.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1433.7647187500002,"end":1439.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1439.7890937500001,"end":1441.1222187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1441.6790937500002,"end":1442.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1443.0628437500002,"end":1445.3072187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1447.06221875,"end":1449.2390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1450.43721875,"end":1457.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1457.9634687500002,"end":1505.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1507.0865937500002,"end":1543.4690937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1544.4478437500002,"end":1552.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1552.83471875,"end":1556.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1556.5472187500002,"end":1563.1622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1563.6178437500002,"end":1571.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1572.0553437500002,"end":1580.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1581.2015937500003,"end":1597.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1597.3678437500002,"end":1600.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1601.50221875,"end":1618.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1618.5965937500002,"end":1625.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1626.2072187500003,"end":1626.5953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1627.9622187500001,"end":1633.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1633.83471875,"end":1634.8640937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1635.38721875,"end":1637.3784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1635.79221875,"end":1646.0353437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1639.18409375,"end":1643.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1646.1534687500002,"end":1647.5878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1646.33909375,"end":1646.5415937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1648.02659375,"end":1651.7222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1648.6678437500002,"end":1649.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1651.8909687500002,"end":1651.9247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1651.9415937500003,"end":1651.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1651.95846875,"end":1652.9203437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1652.9203437500003,"end":1652.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1652.93721875,"end":1652.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1652.95409375,"end":1674.4022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1666.5215937500002,"end":1666.8422187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1671.5503437500001,"end":1678.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1674.5709687500002,"end":1685.1347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1683.0253437500003,"end":1699.2928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1685.6915937500003,"end":1687.3622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1696.82909375,"end":1697.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1697.3184687500002,"end":1697.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1699.2928437500002,"end":1699.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1699.91721875,"end":1707.0215937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1702.0940937500002,"end":1702.7859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1704.2372187500002,"end":1707.8484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1709.8734687500003,"end":1752.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1753.1409687500002,"end":1756.5159687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1756.9378437500002,"end":1768.6659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1768.98659375,"end":1769.8978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1769.8978437500002,"end":1769.9315937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1769.94846875,"end":1779.6009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1771.3997187500001,"end":1773.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1773.9647187500002,"end":1774.7915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1775.2134687500002,"end":1775.8378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1778.68971875,"end":1785.8109687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1786.2497187500003,"end":1788.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1786.9415937500003,"end":1793.9109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1794.3328437500002,"end":1797.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1794.3665937500002,"end":1795.6490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1796.1553437500002,"end":1799.9522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1798.8215937500001,"end":1815.2915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1803.2428437500002,"end":1803.2597187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1803.5128437500002,"end":1805.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1809.9928437500002,"end":1813.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1816.3209687500002,"end":1822.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1822.7503437500002,"end":1825.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1827.34034375,"end":1827.6778437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1829.7534687500001,"end":1831.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1832.3522187500002,"end":1832.9259687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1832.9765937500001,"end":1832.9934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1833.2128437500003,"end":1834.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1835.2547187500002,"end":1838.2415937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1837.87034375,"end":1856.0953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1838.59596875,"end":1840.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1841.5828437500002,"end":1841.7684687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1846.5440937500002,"end":1850.5772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1853.8340937500002,"end":1865.9165937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1857.5297187500003,"end":1862.1703437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1865.5115937500002,"end":1871.4347187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1865.9672187500003,"end":1868.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1871.6034687500003,"end":1872.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1872.9703437500002,"end":1879.3490937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1873.0209687500003,"end":1879.1297187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1879.6865937500002,"end":1882.0828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1881.0028437500002,"end":1899.3965937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1898.7890937500001,"end":1901.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1900.30784375,"end":1911.6815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1901.72534375,"end":1902.1978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1912.2215937500002,"end":1912.7953437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1913.5209687500003,"end":1916.3897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1916.9634687500002,"end":1918.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1918.1953437500001,"end":1920.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1920.43971875,"end":1923.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1924.0172187500002,"end":1924.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1925.1815937500003,"end":1925.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1925.19846875,"end":1926.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1926.9703437500002,"end":1927.9659687500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.106,"end":7.387,"text":"謝謝主席我們是不是請邱部長委員好部長好今天大家談了很多這個急診詠攝和護理人力的問題但我今天還是要繼續講這個"},{"start":25.726,"end":41.434,"text":"大家都在談說這個病房護病比的限制護理人力的不足導致醫院這個關病房然後急診的住院帶床病人滯留狀況加劇那上次我也就教於你就是說光是減傷第一級的"},{"start":41.954,"end":68.095,"text":"他的平均的流治的時間都超過標準時間8小時的還要到雙倍以上那我現在就請你看一個圖到底我們這個護理人力你對於平均媒體報導這個護理人力平均年齡39歲資深護理師留任這個健校你們自己是這樣講留任健校你是怎麼看待這個資訊的"},{"start":71.67,"end":88.445,"text":"我是請那個市長先回答一下我是叫你看安安就是這樣講你自己發布的新聞你們自己的這個你自己都沒看過嗎就是說啊這個2024因為這個時候我還沒上任所以我要仔細看一下這樣子"},{"start":89.926,"end":107.137,"text":"不是啊這是前幾天5月去年5月13號的新聞你還沒上任好那你知道這個議題也應該要了解一下吧因為我當然是希望護理師生能夠留任不是啦現在從一路早上大家問你都覺得說"},{"start":109.178,"end":126.031,"text":"離職的雖然很多但你們12項政策要求穩定而且已經有見效增加的人力其實都是增加的雖然有離職的但你們剛才司長一直在講說人力普遍上還是增加的從你們的職登統計都看得出來那你們現在看出來數據我告訴你2021年護理師職業的平均年齡是36.95歲2024年是39.25歲"},{"start":137.879,"end":159.435,"text":"那我就這樣子問你就好了 就這件事情啦職業的平均年齡越來越增加 你怎麼看待這一件事情平均職業年齡提高啊你怎麼看啊這可能要從兩個角度嘛"},{"start":162.048,"end":180.898,"text":"因為當初去年你們認為這個是肯定把資深的留下來從這個角度來看也許是好事情那是不是說年輕的留不住也是一件事情這個可能要來看評但我們也很好奇為什麼年輕的因為我們開設多元的人才人力的培養"},{"start":181.718,"end":202.436,"text":"包括學社後的護理系有持續的開設而且包括護理師的考試從一年兩次變成一年三次但我們的平均職業年齡卻節節攀升那你講的你也講了就是說啊這個留不住年輕的專業的護理人力那你知道部長你知道2012年台灣護理人員平均職業年齡是幾歲嗎2012年"},{"start":211.962,"end":220.613,"text":"2012年啦 你猜猜看 你用猜的啦 你們沒數據啦 你用猜的 你猜猜看好 那多少歲 被你偷看到了2012年29.6歲 2024年39.25歲"},{"start":230.52,"end":234.883,"text":"當時2012年2012年離現在並沒有很久你們專案報告是說平均年齡29歲而且21到30歲族群最多佔了43.6%43.6%都是30歲以下的護理人力而現在30歲以下護理人力可能是"},{"start":254.895,"end":271.866,"text":"低的不像樣那你對這個數字其實你都沒有掌握我剛剛問你 你也搞不清楚到底我們要肯定平均年齡39歲是留任成功還是說我們要擔心如果2012年平均年齡29歲2024年平均39歲如果照這個邏輯到2036年平均職業年齡會不會變成49歲有沒有可能是這樣子"},{"start":283.743,"end":293.728,"text":"39歲留任都還留任成功我們很感謝這些資深的護理師扛起了這個責任可是呢我擔心的當然是年輕的子卿沒有進來"},{"start":295.1,"end":317.152,"text":"年輕的族群沒進來可是我們的養成班開很多啊我們現在要問的是說剛剛已經有委員講了到澳洲年薪170萬到美國300萬起跳但都還要扣掉生活費那如果在這裡的待遇和工時能夠改善的話大家都知道說大家如果可以留在自己的家鄉誰願意遠離故鄉呢"},{"start":320.854,"end":342.865,"text":"不是了解而已你們開源人數理論上是增加的取得證照的人數也越來越多可是我們平均職業年齡卻越來越高這是不合理的這種狀況裡面畢業生不來心血留不住資深扛起來然後病房關床急診永設一環扣一環"},{"start":345.159,"end":351.601,"text":"這些畢業生留到外國去難道台灣是要幫變成一個國際護理師的執訓中心嗎台灣護理人才的養成是要幫國際的護理人員變成後備養成中心嗎"},{"start":362.332,"end":387.762,"text":"我們很希望我們培養出來的都能夠留在國內因為國內還是需要這些人才我們想盡辦法把他留在國內所以我們現在是政策規劃是有問題還是政策規劃不利還是執行面有問題所以在這種狀況裡面不要動不動就覺得說你們市長剛剛講說我們人數是增加的人數增加都資深的年輕的優秀的沒有心血進來"},{"start":389.062,"end":398.22,"text":"所以你的KPI應該是護理人員回流多少病床開床率是多少而不是在這裡說你有增加可是結果病床關的越多急診越湧射"},{"start":401.366,"end":411.175,"text":"現在護理人員講啊 如果是醫生或醫院跟你們反映問題 你們都馬上回應有所回應 護理人力跟你們反映問題 護理工會跟你們反映問題你們毫無感覺 只好護理人員用集體離職來跟你們做無聲的抗議"},{"start":422.322,"end":450.499,"text":"現在是人家反映了你們對於護理人員跟對於醫師跟對醫院他們講話的份量不一樣啊份量不一樣只好用離職來告訴你他抗議這是大問題捏不對嗎要怎麼走要怎麼走你的12項政策政策工具現在好像也是留住資深的而已資深的而已"},{"start":451.636,"end":473.289,"text":"我們很希望因為一進來他工作是不是滿意新手啦新手其實是非常重要的所以我們有這個護理新手的臨床導師好啦我希望半年後你來告訴我你十二項政策讓年輕的護理師願意留下來為台灣的病患服務我們前一步"},{"start":475.624,"end":489.412,"text":"半年後我會再問你喔就不要再講半年前我問你的這個醫院有公安危機的你還沒告訴我還沒回答我喔當然我今天還有更重要的要問你就是因為有這個問題以外還有"},{"start":492.074,"end":519.803,"text":"今年實施的醫院個別總額制的問題在第二季要上路了醫院個別總額制的問題啊你們有一個很有效的打擊醫療人球的策略和方案那你有很有效的羅伯安棒子你知道總額健保總額增加了700多億醫院增加了300多億吧至少醫院拿走了一半以上吧"},{"start":521.344,"end":522.288,"text":"那一人"},{"start":523.539,"end":550.637,"text":"拿多了幾百億的錢出來可是醫院就這樣子急診永設然後現在關病床這已經是夠荒謬 夠好笑了我今年要給你三四百億結果關了病床更多結果急診更永設然後你說你有一個醫療人球的這個應對的這個策略這樣子那我現在問你喔 就是說啊你有沒有盤點到"},{"start":554.396,"end":556.862,"text":"這個未來醫院個別總額制醫療現場會面臨哪一些衝擊"},{"start":563.066,"end":584.202,"text":"阿你又有什麼因應的策略我可不可以分兩段來報告一下因為我們所有今年的預算都還沒有set down所以還沒有開始來來能夠去落實各種不管是醫院基層相關包括這個年負病比的獎金現在都還沒有開始來發我想希望能夠"},{"start":585.663,"end":593.188,"text":"預算這個會計都能夠趕快做完你現在是在說什麼 說什麼個別醫院總額次啊對你個別醫院總額我們當然知道個別醫院總額是這樣子在台北區也是第二劑才會開始所以你個別醫院總額也是第二劑才要開始啊台北區現在所發生的醫院用色的問題"},{"start":607.407,"end":612.511,"text":"當然應該是還沒有我沒有在問你這個我現在問你是說那個別醫院總額的話我們當然你這樣子實施這個醫院個別總額制實行下去以後醫療現場會發生什麼樣的變化那看病的民眾會受到什麼衝擊我現在是在問這個啊了解"},{"start":627.222,"end":633.608,"text":"我是站在病人和人民的立場在問這個我想這個也不是說突然要去做不是啦會有什麼衝擊你怎麼講不出來沒關係我沒有管你我沒有突然而且我也不見得說認為這樣子是錯的我不認為這樣子就一定是不行的"},{"start":646.518,"end":666.362,"text":"但我現在問你是說有可能面臨到看病的人會受到的衝擊是什麼你來告訴我因為你告訴我了所以你才有想說你的因應策略是什麼那證明你每一個政策新的政策的施行都是有評估有步驟而且到最後的衝擊你們也有因應的策略的我是要看到這個過程啊所以我現在問你"},{"start":673.599,"end":675.882,"text":"這樣子新的制度上路你有沒有盤點過醫療現場會面臨什麼衝擊"},{"start":680.31,"end":701.655,"text":"第一個是什麼我想醫院在財務的自我管理會更加的一個謹慎那如果說他的管理他對病人就會用最有效益的方式來解決你可不可以講具體一點啊不然我說給你聽你補正耶不然我說給你聽啦我再舉個例子他的大姨的日子"},{"start":704.496,"end":713.681,"text":"聽你講這個我認為你不使人間煙火因為很多醫院都跳出來反應了很多醫院的發言人都出來講話了第一個根據媒體的報導台大"},{"start":719.864,"end":747.861,"text":"民眾最擔心的就是醫學中心掛號費會不會調漲然後呢台大醫院目前掛號費100健保部分負擔420然後呢發言人就表示各種醫療支出要價不斷攀升去年點值不到0.9仍然遠遠的趕不上高漲的電費人事費為了因應可能的財務衝擊他們已經商量很多了然後他們不排除最後一個就是調漲掛號費"},{"start":749.762,"end":769.176,"text":"然後新光醫院的副院長大家都知道醫務管理學會的理事長洪子仁也表示不過他們講的更多他們盤點醫院量能他們能做的調控措施包括調高掛費以外減少週六及夜間門診控制掛號人數延後非緊急手術等等"},{"start":776.254,"end":777.537,"text":"現在這事情有嚴重嗎?我現在講這個可能的衝擊在這裡生病的人會受到的衝擊"},{"start":786.408,"end":806.785,"text":"那錢會開過的還算是最小的 調高掛號費再來開集也不會開過的週末假日還有夜間門診減少了開集要去掛號又掛不到了控制掛號人數你要去看也掛不到了半夜的週末的集中症的"},{"start":808.387,"end":820.095,"text":"延後非緊急手術那意思是說都要碰瓶子那瓶子不上不下集中症當然排除在那個外面啦但是呢還有一種是減傷"},{"start":822.92,"end":828.205,"text":"輕的報重的 這也不可能啊當然這種狀況 調整掛號費還掛不到號 這民怨四起啊對民眾來講 可能衝擊到醫療品質 掛號看診困難自費項目變多 手術被延後然後消基會的董事吳榮達 他擔憂啊"},{"start":843.599,"end":848.801,"text":"這一個新制上路醫療品質會下降醫院如果縮門診量民眾掛號看診更困難影響就醫的可敬性當然我們希望分級醫療所以這個縮門診量是對是錯我們暫姑且不論但是這個蕭紀惠董事會講就檢驗檢查手術時間的遞延也會影響病情的發現導致病情惡化"},{"start":871.75,"end":884.834,"text":"如果醫院若自行限縮醫療服務的申報門診檢查檢驗手術住院減少可能會影響這個事情再來喔醫療人員的收入加劇人力的出走這你們有想過嗎"},{"start":888.72,"end":902.766,"text":"你知不知道不是我們不支持分級醫療有時候到小診所然後醫生檢查不出問題都會叫我們說你為了慎重起見到醫學中心去做檢查有沒有這種狀況"},{"start":904.148,"end":911.275,"text":"有啊很多啊還有一個根據媒體報導56歲的楊女士服用高血壓的藥6年照都在台中榮總心臟內科定期回診拿單然後呢她也不懂什麼是腫瘀然後為了要掛號她覺得掛號費漲她會吞下去但是她曾經因為服用醫院給的藥不要忘了你們還有缺藥的問題喔"},{"start":929.591,"end":942.115,"text":"你們缺藥的問題尤其是一些特殊的藥只有供給給醫院沒有供給給地區醫院也沒有供給給地方診所也沒有供給給地區的藥房結果他說他的經驗是他病情穩定了醫院將他下轉到診所"},{"start":947.196,"end":962.761,"text":"從診所 從原廠藥變學名藥還需要在醫學中心回診 已經每半年都抽血檢驗看這個一下在診所 檢驗又要回到醫學中心就算了但是呢 後來 檢查好以後 他有時候又要到發現變嚴重了 又要到中榮去就診"},{"start":969.81,"end":984.728,"text":"這個我們要講的是說分級是對的但是有很多狀況並不是民眾迷信醫學醫院或教學中心而是事情的原本就是這樣直接治療好控制好你叫我去診所就控制不好我就要回來"},{"start":986.471,"end":999.144,"text":"這個教學中心所以這個很複雜的不一定大家都喜歡逛醫院也不一定大家都認為到醫學中心好可是他的經驗就是如此所以他覺得說這個狀況怎麼處理呢你不可以僅憑政策的調整或是你們從上面講說就是這樣子沒問題可以改變了"},{"start":1007.552,"end":1012.415,"text":"你要去掌握民眾的就醫習慣和決策的行為這是很複雜的你單純調高掛號費也不代表能夠有效的降低民眾因輕症前往醫學中心的就診的狀況這個我也質詢過你調整了部分負擔結果呢結果呢 到醫學中心裡面看病的 看門診的量增加 增加"},{"start":1037.072,"end":1044.08,"text":"現在只有改變什麼從人民的荷包掏出更多錢這一件事情而已你想要做的分級醫療沒有改變你當初漲部分負擔就說是為了要落實分級醫療結果沒有辦法控制啊"},{"start":1052.088,"end":1054.289,"text":"無效啊 無效的政策啊那現在呢醫改會也擔心啦門診減量以後醫院可能會透過健保轉資費減少賣信簽的處方簽的釋出調漲掛號費來增加收入導致病人看病變貴"},{"start":1070.558,"end":1087.904,"text":"那為了讓治療項目得到保障甚至可能會將輕症報為重症那為了避免過度申報而斷頭給付他也可能會發展什麼我報太多被斷頭給付那他要怎麼因應如果你是醫院接應者你要怎麼因應部長"},{"start":1089.822,"end":1105.468,"text":"真的很敬佩委員你覺得他們上有政策下有對策你覺得醫院會怎麼因應啊他是非常複雜的因素但是我必須要跟大家講說今天我們生活在台灣這個國度是非常幸福的"},{"start":1105.828,"end":1114.812,"text":"我現在要跟你說你的政策有問題沒有啦我投資你政策可能的問題在哪裡沒有啦你講不出來我就告訴你啦醫院你一直去看他沒有辦法負責別人我們一定要改革讓他練保養讓永遠得到好的照顧"},{"start":1131.94,"end":1160.297,"text":"我不叫你回答,你一直跟我相親,我要跟你說,北醫要面對這麼多人來看診,他怎麼因應,上有政策下有對策道高於尺,魔高於杖啦北醫要透過門前診所啦將輕症帶出醫院治療啦而門前診所已經很多了,很普遍啦這個就是我們在集合的重點之一集合的重點之一有改變嗎?"},{"start":1161.567,"end":1190.454,"text":"有解決嗎我們各區的管理在這個部分沒有啦將輕症帶出醫院假裝不是醫院去看的門前診所然後再去瓜分西醫的基層診所的總額從醫院的總額再來瓜分診所的總額而重症的病人如果沒有人要收通通給他送到公立醫院讓護理人力更慌公立醫院的"},{"start":1191.434,"end":1204.025,"text":"所以如果避免醫院選病人你衝擊的配套在哪裡如果讓人家剛提出來的可能的問題你們是有能力因應的嗎你來告訴我"},{"start":1205.643,"end":1222.818,"text":"透過健保轉資費你要怎麼處理減少慢性遷的事數你要怎麼處理調漲掛號費但是沒有改善醫療分級的問題你怎麼處理門前診所你說你要列為評鑑的項目但是你沒有效你要怎麼處理我們委員所擔心所提出的請你放心"},{"start":1229.319,"end":1248.911,"text":"我們一定一個一個去把它監測還有呢保障人權最佳的政府限縮門診你知道台大你們台大健康政策管理研究所門診的數量真的不用太重我現在不跟你說了我現在不請你講你之前在這裡說的黃正熙教授有要替我看其實大家都看了沒有啦我現在沒有在提你台港主席我要問問題他這樣子一直台港我怎麼問"},{"start":1257.856,"end":1270.499,"text":"我是說台大健康政策管理研究所的副教授郭年珍他最近也撰文指出個別醫院總額上路會遇到的四個問題第一個限縮門診手術是否會影響就醫的限縮門診和手術會不會影響到就醫的可進性"},{"start":1278.041,"end":1295.737,"text":"那第二個就是說啊如何避免醫療醫院選擇輕症病患啊如何避免啊今年醫院的總額比去年增加了370億欸那預期的點值穩定性會提升啊可是關鍵問題在如果避免影響民眾就醫的可進性和醫療品質很低啊但是有可能"},{"start":1303.781,"end":1323.394,"text":"醫院我們健保多給了370億然後你們漲部分負擔也增加了醫院的收入然後呢如果再增加掛號費收入又要增加可是未來掛號掛不到然後檢查檢查不到然後未來看病的可靜性會受影響"},{"start":1324.855,"end":1353.422,"text":"你有沒有可能面臨導致高醫療需求的病患不符但是不符合重症的範圍面臨更大的困難或者是變成全民搶掛號大賽大家都要搶掛號都拜託你不要搶掛號或是促使醫院策略性的選擇輕症病患平轉或上轉醫療資源耗用多的病患給其他公立的醫院進一步的加劇醫療資源分配不均"},{"start":1355.37,"end":1380.423,"text":"然後再來第三點 郭年增教授講的醫院內部資源分配和管理衝突這不是醫病的問題 也不是醫院跟病人的問題而已光是醫院內部各分科的內部資源分配和管理就會產生衝突所以在某些科別好看的 成本低的 然後服務量增加"},{"start":1381.443,"end":1394.166,"text":"然後薪資裡面呢 如果這種像成本高的不賺錢的科別 然後人數下降這邊看這個吃力不討好的 醫生會收入減成本高的 成本低的 然後好看的 人看越多越賺錢的 醫生薪水越來越高"},{"start":1402.228,"end":1430.404,"text":"光是在這種狀況裡面醫師現有的薪酬制度除了兼行政主管或擔任研究醫師以外仍然都是以不拖你服務的量能為基礎鼓勵多做來分配酬勞和所得可是你當總額受到嚴格的控制然後醫院如果沒有有效的調整薪資激勵這個這個激勵的鼓勵的機制的話你如果反向的鼓勵不要充量然後你沒有鼓勵"},{"start":1431.405,"end":1432.286,"text":"你這個管理食物上還有一種問題是論人記仇的狀況那你減少醫療你要讓這個醫生和部門之間真的啦這問題很嚴重的譬如說"},{"start":1450.475,"end":1470.796,"text":"本醫來得住院 住院的我們都知道門診轉住院的病患病情比較穩定住院的天數容易管理比較有機會接受自費治療可是急重症的急診他轉住院的病患病情是相對嚴重的住院的時間也不確定的"},{"start":1472.498,"end":1477.764,"text":"也可能比較容易被排擠有沒有可能在醫院的管理上他們在各部門的住院收留上寧可優先選擇收留門診轉上來的"},{"start":1487.435,"end":1499.205,"text":"而策略性的將急重症的急診部門的要轉病房的讓他留在急診室導致急診有壓力進一步升高因為這部門和部門之間 我也要選定他要選勤課 他也要選籌檔的"},{"start":1507.173,"end":1536.029,"text":"所以在這種狀況裡面這一類的急診和非急診專科的衝突在醫院裡面會不會被進一步的放大畢竟多收一個急診的患者即使能有健保的加成或是排除個別的總額之外相較於門診排成的住院病患哪一個比較符合他們那個部門的利益這個是很現實的因為那個部門也有護理人力缺護理師也考量到我寧可照顧"},{"start":1536.869,"end":1540.212,"text":"門診轉上來誰要照顧那個急症急重症轉上來的所以為了在這種狀況裡面這個問題都是內部管理會衝突的而犧牲的是病人啦在這種狀況裡面還有一種病床控管的方式並不是由科部統一管理有一些醫院的病床的管理是根據個別醫師資歷去分配的"},{"start":1563.717,"end":1579.807,"text":"而個別醫師的資歷的分配中它導致有空床仍然無法有效收治急診的病患所以在這裡我並不是說我們反對你分級醫療並不是說你反對你個別醫院的總額管制而是"},{"start":1581.257,"end":1596.305,"text":"你要做的你要監測的更細緻你的配套機制要更完善而是你要預期到可能的衝擊對病人的衝擊是什麼而你的因應之道是什麼請問我剛剛講那些問題你們的配套是什麼"},{"start":1601.547,"end":1615.238,"text":"病人受到這麼大的衝擊 你的配套是什麼所以在醫界 在學界人家已經跟你講你的政府要細緻的進行相關的監測和配套機制你講話怎麼這樣你們現在有什麼細緻的監測和配套機制你們監測的項目有哪些監測的頻率會如何設定監測後的檢討設定多久時間"},{"start":1627.984,"end":1643.915,"text":"包園,你剛剛提的,不管是郭教授,或者是你提的寶貴的見解其實我們都知道我現在問你,你也在這裡,不是問你知不知道,我問你啊你現在監測的配套機制是什麼,你若不能說,叫你書長來說啦我看你是不會說啦,叫你書長來說你,謝謝記者,讓書長我問一下"},{"start":1654.679,"end":1666.489,"text":"醫療可見性和品質的衝擊跟委員報告這個個別醫院總額除了台北區之外全部都在今年1月1號都實施了台北區當然是最困難的"},{"start":1668.371,"end":1673.493,"text":"南區高屏區東區都已經早已實施多年所以這個不是一個新的制度因為這些問題在過去實施之前也都有這樣的疑慮但是實施下去之後我們各區的你不要這樣子好不好中南部的醫療現場的問題跟我們北區會一樣嗎"},{"start":1692.76,"end":1704.732,"text":"一個大台北地區多少人你知道嗎大台北就好了北北基就好了多少人你告訴我700萬人啊但是大台北地區啊700萬在全台灣三分之一耶北北基而已耶"},{"start":1709.929,"end":1737.723,"text":"你知道2004年就以醫院卓越計畫之名推行過了類似個別總額的制度了啦這個概念在2004年就做過了那因為部分醫院減少開立藥品種類和數量而且限制門診量導致民眾申訴掛不上號醫院減少開藥種類或數量甚至有醫學中心因為頻繁遭投訴而被中區健保業務組終止合約但是因為當時是自願參與的"},{"start":1739.884,"end":1766.143,"text":"而未參加的醫院這個點子會讓他下降然後影響了整體醫療生態最後這一個計畫被監察院糾正欸那我不認為現在的計畫跟當時是一模一樣但是你們面對這個的態度你們認為台北的模式跟中南部會一樣都不會有問題學者專家叫你們監測什麼你們要監測了嗎"},{"start":1769.105,"end":1775.87,"text":"有監測嗎 都會參考啦他們叫你監測什麼 你先回答我你先回答我 他們要求的監測合不合理他們要求監測什麼東西 你回答得出來嗎"},{"start":1786.277,"end":1814.966,"text":"我們有很多的指標在檢測他在說你們都知道知道 你連聽都不想聽人家建議 監測實施前後的實施前後的門診和住院病患的屬性變化監測病人就醫流向是不是出現不合理的平轉或下轉引導醫院建立更合理的薪酬和資源分配機制"},{"start":1816.363,"end":1824.93,"text":"引導醫院建立更合理的星球和資源分配機制你們的對策是什麼你們的手段 蘿蔔和棒子是什麼"},{"start":1829.793,"end":1849.01,"text":"大家都轉到台大和北龍然後像那個人酬的話不收的話是要轉出那邊處分還是還是台大和北龍要負責我真的要語重心長的跟委員報告啦您的資料我們都會我們都了解也會解決但是我不是要來了解我現在問你說人家拋出來的問題"},{"start":1851.932,"end":1872.364,"text":"他們絕對都是...我是幫醫院拋出來的問題拿來問你我不是在問醫院院長我擔心的是衛福部部長你要怎麼解決而你講不出來所以我擔心啦有蘿蔔有棍子但是不是一個學者所講的就代表全部"},{"start":1873.044,"end":1878.666,"text":"我現在最好說一句啦現在我最好說一句啦 因為我說很久了啦你為大家不是靠上身就可以解決問題你不是大家叫你為上身就可以解決問題今天在這裡是說 人家提出問題了你有什麼看法 你有什麼解方你面對病人受到這麼大的衝擊 你的配套是什麼而今天"},{"start":1901.713,"end":1923.559,"text":"而今天整個衛福部包括部長包括署長都對我們提出來的病人受到衝擊回答不出來不願意回答然後轉移焦點答非所問這才是大問題啦我們會解決所有的您擔心的問題大家宣誓性的唯獨一再的宣誓而已謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":887,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（12時7分）謝謝主席，請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。今天大家談了很多急診壅塞和護理人力的問題，但我還是要繼續講。大家都在談病房護病比的限制、護理人力的不足，導致醫院關病房、急診住院待床病人滯留狀況加劇，上次我也就教於你，光是檢傷第一級的平均留置時間都超過標準時間的8小時，還要到雙倍以上啦！我現在就請你看一個圖，到底你對於媒體報導護理人力「平均年齡39歲，資深護理師留任見效」，你們自己是這樣講：「留任見效」，你是怎麼看待這個資訊的？"],["邱部長泰源：我是不是請司長先回答一下？"],["林委員淑芬：啊？我說叫你看，它就是這樣講。你們自己發布的新聞，你自己都沒看過嗎？就是說2024……"],["邱部長泰源：林委員，因為這時候我還沒上任，所以我要仔細看一下。"],["林委員淑芬：不是啊！這是前幾天……去年5月13日的新聞，你還沒上任？好，那你知道這個議題，也應該了解一下吧！"],["邱部長泰源：我當然希望護理資深人員能夠留任啊！"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！從早上大家一路問你，你都覺得離職的雖然很多，但你們的12項政策是要求穩定，而且已經見效，人力其實都是增加的；雖然有離職的，但是你們司長剛才也一直講人力普遍上還是增加的，從你們的職等統計都看得出來。那麼照你們現在看出來的數據，我告訴你，2021年護理師執業的平均年齡是36.95歲，2024年是39.25歲，那我這樣問你就好了、就這件事情啦！執業的平均年齡愈來愈增加，你怎麼看待這一件事情？平均執業年齡提高啊！你怎麼看啦！"],["邱部長泰源：這可能要從兩個角度嘛！如果……"],["林委員淑芬：因為當初、去年你們認為、肯定這是……"],["邱部長泰源：如果能夠把資深的留下來，從這個角度來看，也許是好事情啦！那是不是說年輕的留不住？也是一件事情啦！這個可能要看……"],["林委員淑芬：但我們也很好奇啊！為什麼年輕的留不住？因為我們開設了多元的人才、人力培養啊！包括學士後護理系持續地開設，而且包括護理師考試從一年2次變成一年3次，但平均執業年齡卻節節攀升，你也講了，留不住年輕的、專業的護理人力。部長，你知道嗎？2012年臺灣護理人員的平均執業年齡是幾歲嗎？2012年啦！你猜猜看，你用猜的。你們那邊沒有數據啦！你用猜的，你猜猜看。"],["邱部長泰源：有啦！你剛剛有秀一下啦！"],["林委員淑芬：好，那是多少歲？被你偷看到了。"],["邱部長泰源：29.6歲嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：2012年29.6歲，2024年39.25歲。當時2012年離現在並沒有很久！你們的專案報告是說平均年齡29歲，而且21到30歲族群最多，占了43.6%，43.6%都是30歲以下的護理人力，而現在30歲以下護理人力可能是低得不像樣。對於這些數字，其實你都沒有掌握，我剛剛問你，你也搞不清楚。到底我們要肯定平均年齡39歲是留任成功，還是我們要擔心？2012年平均年齡是29歲，2024年平均是39歲，如果照這個邏輯，到2036年，平均執業年齡會不會變成49歲？有沒有可能是這樣子？39歲都還留任成功，我們很感謝這些資深的護理師扛起了這個責任，可是呢？我們……"],["邱部長泰源：我們擔心的當然是年輕族群沒有進來啦！"],["林委員淑芬：年輕的族群沒進來，可是我們的養成班開很多啊！我們現在問的是剛剛已經有委員講的，到澳洲年薪170萬元、到美國300萬元起跳，但都還要扣掉生活費，如果在這裡的待遇和工時能夠改善的話，大家都知道，如果可以留在自己的家鄉，誰願意遠離故鄉呢？"],["邱部長泰源：了解，是、是、是。"],["林委員淑芬：不是「了解」而已啊！"],["邱部長泰源：我們會朝這方面來努力。"],["林委員淑芬：你們開源人數理論上是增加的，取得證照的人數也愈來愈多，可是平均執業年齡卻愈來愈高，這是不合理的，在這種狀況裡面，畢業生不來、新血留不住、資深扛起來。然後病房關床、急診壅塞，一環扣一環。這些畢業生流到外國去，難道臺灣是要變成國際護理師的職訓中心嗎？臺灣護理人才的養成，是要幫國際護理人員變成後備養成中心嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：我們很希望我們培養出來的都能夠留在國內，因為國內還是需要這些人才。我們會想盡辦法把他們留在國內。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！所以我們現在是政策規劃有問題、政策規劃不力，還是執行面有問題？在這種狀況裡面，不要動不動就覺得……司長剛剛講，我們的人數是增加的，但人數增加的都是資深的，年輕的、優秀的，沒有新血進來，所以你的KPI應該是護理人員回流多少、病床開床率是多少，而不是在這裡說有增加，結果病床關得愈多、急診愈壅塞。","現在也有護理人員講啊！如果是醫生或醫院跟你們反映問題，你們都馬上回應、有所回應，但護理人力跟你們反映問題、護理工會跟你們反映問題，你們毫無感覺，護理人員只好用集體離職來跟你們做無聲的抗議。現在人家反映了，你們面對護理人員和對醫師或對醫院時，他們講話的分量不一樣啊！分量不一樣，只好用離職來告訴你他抗議。這是大問題！部長，要怎麼做？要怎麼做？你的12項政策工具現在好像也是留住資深的而已，資深的而已！"],["邱部長泰源：我們很希望……因為一進來工作是不是滿意，對新手啦！對新手其實是非常重要的，所以我們有護理新手的臨床導師把他帶起來，因為……"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！我希望半年後你來告訴我，你的12項政策讓年輕護理師願意留下來為臺灣的病患服務啦！"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們全力以赴。"],["林委員淑芬：半年後我會再問你喔！就不要再講……半年前我問你醫院有公安危機的，你還沒告訴我、還沒回答我喔！","但我今天還有更重要的要問你，除了這個問題以外，還有今年實施的醫院個別總額制問題，在第二季要上路了，針對醫院個別總額制的問題，你們有一個很有效的打擊醫療人球策略和方案，你有很有效的蘿蔔和棒子。你知道健保總額增加了七百多億元，醫院增加了三百多億元吧？至少醫院拿走了一半以上吧！醫院多拿了幾百億元的錢出來，卻這樣急診壅塞、關病床，這已經夠荒謬、夠好笑了，我今年要給你三、四百億元，結果關的病床更多、結果急診更壅塞，然後你說你有醫療人球的應對策略。那我現在問你，你有沒有盤點到未來在醫院個別總額制下，醫療現場會面臨哪一些衝擊？你又有什麼因應策略？"],["邱部長泰源：我可不可以分兩段來報告一下？"],["林委員淑芬：好。"],["邱部長泰源：因為我們今年所有的預算都還沒有settle down，所以還沒能夠開始落實，各種不管是醫院、基層相關，連護病比的獎金現在都還沒有開始發啦！我希望預算的會計進度能夠趕快走完……"],["林委員淑芬：你現在是在講什麼？我在講個別醫院總額制。"],["邱部長泰源：第二，關於個別醫院總額，我們當然知道個別醫院總額是這樣，在臺北區也是第二季才會開始……"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！個別醫院總額也是第二季才要開始啊！"],["邱部長泰源：臺北區現在所發生的醫院壅塞問題當然……應該是還沒有跟個別醫院總額這個問題……"],["林委員淑芬：我沒有在問你這個，我現在問你的是……"],["邱部長泰源：個別醫院總額的話，我們當然不能讓它有人球發生。"],["林委員淑芬：你這樣實施個別醫院總額制，實行下去以後，醫療現場會發生什麼樣的變化？看病的民眾會受到什麼衝擊？我現在是在問這個啊！"],["邱部長泰源：了解。"],["林委員淑芬：我是站在病人和人民的立場問這個啊！"],["邱部長泰源：我想，這個也不是突然要去做啦！"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！會有什麼衝擊你怎麼講不出來？沒關係，我沒有管你是不是突然……"],["邱部長泰源：因為南區在這部分就做得很好。"],["林委員淑芬：而且我也不見得認為這樣是錯的、我不認為這樣就一定是不行的，但我現在的問題是有可能面臨到、看病的人可能受到的衝擊是什麼？你來告訴我。因為你告訴我了，才代表你會想你的因應策略是什麼，那就證明你每一個新政策的施行都有評估、有步驟，而且面對最後的衝擊，你們也有因應的策略，我是要看到這個過程啊！所以我現在問你，推這樣的新制度上路，你有沒有盤點過醫療現場會面臨什麼衝擊？"],["邱部長泰源：好……"],["林委員淑芬：第一個是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：我想，醫院在財務上的自我管理會更加謹慎，對病人就會用最有效益的方式解決……"],["林委員淑芬：你可不可以講具體一點啊？不然我講給你聽，你是部長耶！不然我講給你聽啦！"],["邱部長泰源：我再舉個例子，住院的日子就會……"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！第一，聽了你講這個，我認為你不食人間煙火，因為很多醫院都跳出來反映了、很多醫院的發言人都出來講話了。第一，根據媒體的報導，民眾最擔心的就是醫學中心的掛號費會不會調漲。臺大醫院目前掛號費100元、健保部分負擔420元，發言人就表示，各種醫療支出、藥價不斷攀升，去年點值不到0.9，仍然遠遠趕不上高漲的電費、人事費。為了因應可能的財務衝擊，他們已經商量很多了，不排除最後一刻就是調漲掛號費。然後，新光醫院的副院長、大家都知道的醫務管理學會理事長洪子仁也表示，不過！他們講得更多喔！他們盤點醫院量能，能做的調控措施包括調高掛號費，此外，有減少周六及夜間門診、控制掛號人數、延後非緊急手術等等。","現在事情嚴重嗎？我現在說這些，代表可能的衝擊在這裡。生病的人會受到的衝擊，如果是花錢可以解決的，還算是最小的，像是調高掛號費；再來是花錢也無法解決的：周末假日、夜間門診減少了，就是花錢要掛號也掛不到的。控制掛號人數，要掛也掛不到，半夜、周末的，對急重症的病人延後非緊急手術，那意思就是都不要生病啦！要是病情不上不下的，急重症當然排除在外面啦！但是還有一種是檢傷輕的報成重的，這也不無可能啊！在這種狀況下，調漲掛號費還掛不到號，民怨四起啊！對民眾來講可能衝擊到醫療品質，包括掛號、看診更困難，自費項目變多、手術被延後。消基會董事吳榮達擔憂，這一個新制上路後，醫療品質會下降，醫院如果縮門診量，民眾掛號、看診更困難，會影響就醫的可近性。當然，我們希望分級醫療，所以縮門診量是對是錯，我們姑且不論，但是這位消基會董事也講，檢驗、檢查、手術時間的遞延也會影響病情的發現，導致病情惡化。如果醫院自行限縮醫療服務的申報、門診、檢查、檢驗、手術、住院減少，事情就來了喔！可能會影響醫療人員的收入，加劇人力的出走，這點你們想過嗎？","你可知道？不是我們不支持分級醫療，有時候到小診所，醫生檢查不出問題，都會叫我們為了慎重起見，到醫學中心去做檢查啊！有沒有這種狀況？有啊！很多啊！還有一個，根據媒體報導，56歲的楊女士服用高血壓藥6年，都在臺中榮總心臟內科定期回診、拿單。她不懂什麼是總額，為了掛號，她覺得就算掛號費漲，她也會吞下去。但是她曾經因為服用醫院給的藥，不要忘了你們還有缺藥問題喔！缺藥的問題，尤其是一些特殊的藥，只供給給醫院，沒有供給給地區醫院、沒有供給給地方診所，也沒有供給給地區藥房。她說她的經驗是當她病情穩定了，醫院將她下轉到診所，但診所藥物從原廠藥變成學名藥，還需要在醫學中心回診，以及每半年都抽血檢驗。一下子在診所，檢驗又要回到醫學中心就算了！後來有時候檢查發現變嚴重了，又要到中榮就診。","我現在要講的是：分級是對的，但是有很多狀況並不是民眾迷信醫學中心或教學醫院，而是事情的演變就是這樣，吃藥吃得好好的、控制得好好的，醫院叫她去診所卻控制得不好，她就必須再回醫學中心。所以這是很複雜的！不一定大家都喜歡逛醫院，也不一定大家都認為到醫學中心好，可是她的經驗就是如此，所以她覺得這種狀況怎麼處理呢？你不可以僅憑政策調整，或者是從上面講說就是這樣沒問題，可以改變的。你要掌握民眾的就醫習慣和決策行為，這是很複雜的，單純調高掛號費也不代表能夠有效地降低民眾因輕症前往醫學中心就診的狀況。這個我也質詢過，你調整了部分負擔，結果呢？到醫學中心裡面看病、看門診的量增加再增加！現在只改變什麼？從人民的荷包掏出更多錢這件事情而已，你想做的分級醫療沒有改變！你當初漲部分負擔時就說是為了落實分級醫療，結果沒有辦法控制啊！無效啊！無效的政策啊！那現在呢？醫改會也擔心啦！門診減量以後，醫院可能會透過健保轉自費減少慢性處方箋的釋出、調漲掛號費來增加收入，導致病人看病變貴。為了讓治療項目得到保障，甚至可能將輕症報為重症。為了避免過度申報而斷頭給付，也可能會發展什麼？如果因為報太多被斷頭給付，那醫院要怎麼因應啊？如果你是醫院經營者，你要怎麼因應，部長？"],["邱部長泰源：真的很敬佩委員喔！對醫療體系這麼……"],["林委員淑芬：不要啦！不要敬佩，你告訴我啦！上有政策、下有對策，你覺得醫院會怎麼因應啊？"],["邱部長泰源：所以你剛剛講得很好，它是基於非常複雜的因素。但是我必須跟大家講，今天我們生活在臺灣這個國度是非常幸福的……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要跟你講你的政策有沒有問題啦！我在提醒你政策可能的問題在哪裡。"],["邱部長泰源：我要先講，我們用全世界算比較低廉的醫療費用就得到世界最好的醫療品質，所以一定要改革嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：你講不出來，我就告訴你啦！醫院面對病人一直去看病、一直去看病，沒有辦法拒絕病人，就有可能……"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定要改革，讓健保永續……"],["林委員淑芬：請你閉嘴一下好不好？部長，我沒有問你。"],["邱部長泰源：讓人民永遠得到好的照顧。"],["林委員淑芬：現在時間不算喔！我沒叫你回答，你只是一直跟我爭辯。我要跟你講，醫院要面對這麼多人來看診，它怎麼因應？上有政策、下有對策，道高一尺、魔高一丈啦！醫院會透過門前診所啦！將輕症帶出醫院治療啦！而門前診所已經很多了、很普遍啦！"],["邱部長泰源：這個就是我們在稽核的重點之一。"],["林委員淑芬：哎呀！當稽核的重點之一，有改變嗎？有解決嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：有啊！我們各區的管理在這個部分是特別重視。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦！將輕症帶出醫院，假裝不是醫院去看的，而是門前診所，然後再去瓜分西醫基層診所的總額、從醫院的總額再瓜分診所的總額。而中重症的病人如果沒人要收，統統送到公立醫院，讓公立醫院的護理人力更荒。所以，如何避免醫院選病人，因應衝擊的配套在哪裡？如何讓人家……對於我剛剛提出來的可能問題，你們是有能力因應的嗎？你來告訴我，透過健保轉自費，你要怎麼處理？減少慢性箋的釋出，你要怎麼處理？調漲掛號費，但是沒有改善醫療分級的問題，你怎麼處理？針對門前診所，你說你要列為評鑑的項目，但是沒有效，那你要怎麼處理？"],["邱部長泰源：委員所擔心、所提出的，請你放心，我們一定一個一個把它監測、克服，保障人民最大的幸福。"],["林委員淑芬：還有、還有！問題不是只有這樣而已，包括限縮門診！你知道你們臺大健康政策與管理研究所……"],["邱部長泰源：門診數量真的不能太重，一個醫師看一百多人……"],["林委員淑芬：我還沒請你答復，請你慢點說。"],["邱部長泰源：只有王正旭教授看看有沒有那個體力可以看診啦！其實大家都看得很辛苦，如果可以不用……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在不是在和你抬槓。主席！我要問問題，他這樣子一直抬槓，我怎麼問？"],["邱部長泰源：沒有啦！我是回答……"],["林委員淑芬：我是說臺大健康政策與管理研究所副教授郭年真最近也撰文指出個別醫院總額上路會遇到的四個問題，第一個是限縮門診和手術會不會影響到就醫的可近性；第二個是如何避免醫院選擇輕症病患。今年醫院的總額比去年增加了370億元，預期的點值穩定性會提升，可是關鍵問題在於如何避免影響民眾就醫的可近性和醫療品質，錢多了啊，我們健保多給了醫院370億，你們漲部分負擔也增加了醫院的收入，然後如果再增加掛號費，收入又要增加，可是未來有可能掛號掛不到、檢查也檢查不到，然後看病的可近性會受影響，有沒有可能導致有高醫療需求但是不符合重症範圍的病患面臨更大的困難？或者是變成全民搶掛號大賽，大家都要搶掛號，都拜託立委搶掛號，或是促使醫院策略性的選擇輕症病患，平轉或上轉醫療資源耗用多的病患給其他公立的醫院，進一步的加劇醫療資源分配不均？第三個是醫院內部資源分配和管理衝突的問題，這不是醫病的問題，也不是醫院跟病人的問題而已，光是醫院內部各分科的內部資源分配和管理就會產生衝突，所以某些好看的、成本低的科別服務量增加，在新制裡，成本高的、不賺錢的科別人數下降，這邊這個吃力不討好的醫生會收入減少，而成本低的、好看的科別的看診人數愈來愈多更賺錢，醫生薪水愈來愈高，光是在這種狀況裡面，醫師現有的薪酬制度，除了兼行政主管或擔任研究醫師以外，仍然都是以不脫服務量能為基礎，鼓勵多做來分配酬勞和所得，可是當總額受到嚴格的控制時，醫院如果沒有有效的調整薪資，有激勵、鼓勵機制，如何反向的鼓勵不要衝量？","管理實務上還有一種問題是論人計酬的狀況，你減少醫療，要讓醫生和部門與部門之間，真的啦！這個問題很嚴重耶！譬如說醫院裡的住院病患，我們都知道門診轉住院的病患病情比較穩定，住院的天數容易管理，比較有機會接受自費治療，而急重症的急診轉住院病患的病情是相對嚴重的，住院的時間也不確定，也可能比較容易被排擠，有沒有可能在醫院的管理上、在各部門的住院收留上，寧可優先選擇收留門診轉上來的而策略性的將急重症的急診部門要轉病房的病患留在急診室，導致急診壅塞，壓力進一步升高？因為部門和部門之間也要選擇啊！當然要選輕鬆的哪會選粗重的？在這種狀況下，這一類的急診和非急診專科的衝突，在醫院裡面會不會被進一步的放大？畢竟多收一個急診的患者，即使能有健保的加成或是排除於個別總額之外，相較於門診排程的住院病患，哪一個比較符合他們那個部門的利益，這個是很現實的，因為那個部門也有護理人力缺口，護理師也會考量寧可照顧門診轉上來的，誰要照顧那個急診急重症轉上來的？這些都是內部管理會有衝突的問題，而犧牲的是病人啦！","在這種狀況裡面還有一種是病床控管方式問題，並不是由科部統一管理，有一些醫院病床的管理是根據個別醫師資歷去分配的，這個依據個別醫師資歷分配的狀況導致有空床仍然無法有效收治急診病患，在這裡我並不是說我們反對你們的分級醫療，並不是反對個別醫院的總額管制，而是說你要做得、你要監測得更細緻，你的配套機制要更完善，是你要預期到可能對病人的衝擊是什麼，要知道你的因應之道是什麼。請問對我剛剛講的那些問題，你們的配套是什麼？病人受到這麼大的衝擊，你的配套是什麼？醫界、學界已經跟你講，政府要細緻的進行相關的監測和配套機制，你說說看，你們現在有什麼細緻的監測和配套機制？你們監測的項目有哪些？監測的頻率會如何設定？監測後的檢討設定多久時間？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，你剛剛提的不管是郭教授或者是你的寶貴的見解，其實我們都知道，我們都很清楚，而且我們當然有配套啊！比如說……"],["林委員淑芬：立委在這裡不是問你知不知道，我問你啊！你現在監測的配套機制是什麼，你如果不會講，叫你們署長來講啦！我看你是不會講，叫你們署長來講啦！"],["邱部長泰源：感謝委員有機會讓署長發揮一下。"],["林委員淑芬：署長來就對醫療可近性和品質的衝擊說一下。"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，這個個別醫院總額，除了臺北區之外，全部都在今年1月1號實施了。"],["林委員淑芬：臺北區當然是最困難的。"],["石署長崇良：北區、南區、高屏區、東區都早已實施多年，這個不是一個新的制度……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問的是剛才大家討論提出來的問題、衝擊，你要如何因應。"],["石署長崇良：您的這些問題在過去實施之前也都有這樣的疑慮，但是實施下去之後，我們各區的……"],["林委員淑芬：你不要這樣子好不好？中南部的醫療現場的問題跟我們北區會一樣嗎？一個大臺北地區有多少人，你知道嗎？北北基就好了，北北基有多少人？你告訴我。"],["石署長崇良：700萬人。"],["林委員淑芬：對呀！700萬人，占全臺灣三分之一耶！這還是北北基而已。"],["石署長崇良：但是大臺北地區的醫療資源更為豐盛。"],["林委員淑芬：你知道2004年就以醫院卓越計畫之名推行過類似個別總額的制度了，這個概念在2004年就做過了，因為部分醫院減少開立藥品種類和數量而且限制門診量，導致民眾申訴掛不上號、醫院減少開藥種類或數量，甚至有醫學中心因為頻繁遭投訴而被中區健保業務組中止合約，但是當時是自願參與的，而未參加醫院的點值會下降，然後影響了整體醫療生態，最後是這個計畫被監察院糾正，我不認為現在的計畫跟當時是一模一樣的，但是你們面對這個的態度，你們認為臺北的模式跟中南部會一樣，都不會有問題，學者專家叫你們監測什麼，你們要監測了嗎？有監測嗎？"],["石署長崇良：都會參考啦！"],["林委員淑芬：他們叫你監測什麼？你先回答我。"],["石署長崇良：如果以現在來看……"],["林委員淑芬：你先回答我。"],["石署長崇良：沒有實施的臺北區壅塞，已實施的其他區沒有壅塞……"],["林委員淑芬：你先回答我，他們要求的監測合不合理？他們要求監測什麼東西，你回答得出來嗎？"],["石署長崇良：我們有很多的指標在監測……"],["林委員淑芬：他們在說什麼你們連聽都不聽了，還在說你們都知道，知道？你連聽都不想聽！人家建議監測實施前後的……"],["邱部長泰源：郭教授的意見我們研讀了半天，都在做啦！"],["林委員淑芬：實施前後的門診和住院病患的屬性變化，監測病人就醫流向是不是出現不合理的平轉或下轉……"],["主席：林委員，請石署長到你辦公室報告啦！"],["林委員淑芬：引導醫院建立更合理的薪酬和資源分配機制，你們的對策是什麼？你們的手段──蘿蔔和棒子是什麼？大家都轉到臺大和北榮？然後像那個人球，不收的話是要轉出那邊受處分，還是臺大和北榮要負責？"],["邱部長泰源：我真的要語重心長的跟委員報告，您的資料我們都瞭解也會解決……"],["林委員淑芬：我不是要你們瞭解，我是問你們說人家拋出來的問題……"],["邱部長泰源：但是請你要相信各醫院的院長，他們絕對都是悲天憫人，以人民為重，所以不用擔心。"],["林委員淑芬：我是幫醫院把拋出來的問題拿來問你，我不是在問醫院院長，我擔心的是衛福部部長你要怎麼解決，而你講不出來！所以我才擔心哪！"],["邱部長泰源：我們將來有蘿蔔、有棍子，但是不是一個學者講的就代表全部，你要相信醫療人員絕對是站在人民健康的立場。"],["林委員淑芬：我最後說一句，立委站在這裡不是靠相信就可以解決問題，你也不是在這裡靠著要立委相信就可以解決問題，今天在這裡講的是人家提出問題了，你有什麼看法、有什麼解方？面對病人受到這麼大的衝擊，你的配套是什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：所有提出的問題我們一定會蒐集。"],["林委員淑芬：而今天整個衛福部，包括部長、包括署長都對我們提出來的病人受到的衝擊回答不出來，不願意回答，然後轉移焦點、答非所問，這才是大問題。"],["邱部長泰源：我們會解決所有您擔心的問題。"],["林委員淑芬：這種宣示性的話也只是一再的宣示而已。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員，謝謝部長。","我們請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","羅智強","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","劉建國","陳培瑜","楊曜","王義川"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00005"}}},{"id":"159161","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159161","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fc495974ea0849fe4ba53b8a5773cfe3d86f8ffab8834d983a950302871400d155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:33:27 - 12:37:57","影片長度":"00:04:30","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:33:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:37:57+08:00","duration":270,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.52409375,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.83096875,"end":30.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.58096875,"end":17.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.96909375,"end":18.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.08096875,"end":56.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.439718750000004,"end":59.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.38034375,"end":61.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.236593750000004,"end":71.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.767843750000004,"end":64.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.14721875000001,"end":66.99096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.22659375,"end":113.81909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.67971875,"end":119.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.48471875000001,"end":121.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.74596875,"end":124.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.07909375000001,"end":126.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.73284375000001,"end":127.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.12471875,"end":172.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.38784375,"end":219.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.59971875000002,"end":231.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.48846875,"end":233.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.95221875000001,"end":268.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.55409375,"end":270.97596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.524,"end":6.685,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請次長好 有請葉次長好 次長午安我想要跟您快速確定一下未來青年基本法的主管機關應該還是會落在教育部對不對是 教育部那所以這個業務跟您有關但是在目前所有委員提出來的版本裡面我認為有非常多委員的提案有違法的疑慮我今天必須要在詢答當中提醒次長來 我們來看一下"},{"start":31.155,"end":55.712,"text":"我們都知道青年基本法的立法精神是為了保護青年發展權力擴大青年參與決策我們有更多的資源可以協助青年就如同剛剛邱志偉委員說的各部會必須要寬列預算支持所有的青年政策可是寬列預算跟設置專門的基金這件事情我不知道在次長您的認知當中是一樣的嗎"},{"start":58.49,"end":71.882,"text":"這兩件事情是不一樣的好 不一樣 怎麼樣的不一樣法如果是基金的話根據這個財政紀律法它是需要有財源才能夠設置基金所以這個跟寬列預算是不一樣的不一樣的嘛 好"},{"start":72.583,"end":79.386,"text":"那我的認知也是這樣當你要設置基金的時候你就必須要自己提出相對的裁員的來源目前我看了今天張偉寧所排案的版本裡面從葉元之林沛翔委員的提案版本他們是放在第19條羅廷偉委員的提案版本是放在第18條"},{"start":91.75,"end":119.323,"text":"魯明哲、楊瓊英、徐宇珍、游浩、邱若驊、羅廷維委員放的是第19條葛如軍、林沛翔、鄭振淺、洪孟凱、張志倫放的是第18條他們的寫法幾乎是一模一樣的叫做行政院應設置青年發展基金因為今天已經在做詢答了我不知道後續在討論的時候這個部分教育部有沒有先做出相關的研究跟討論回應他們的版本如果要繼續強烈的要求教育部要設置相關的青年發展基金我們要怎麼辦"},{"start":120.652,"end":144.149,"text":"我想就是還是要這個依法還是你可以請你的同仁幫你回答好 我請署長回答這部分我們依法行政如果說那個目前財政紀律法沒有法源的話那我們就沒有辦法這樣子去做事那我幫次長補充因為剛剛次長卡卡的齁我自己很喜歡繪本也很喜歡很有趣的梗圖這樣財政紀律法第七條告訴我們了"},{"start":144.369,"end":168.728,"text":"各級政府以及立法機關在制定修正法律的時候法規自治規範不得增訂固定經費額度或者是比率保障或者是把政府既有收入以成立基金的方法限定專款專用其實財政紀律法已經給次長給教育部你們工具了但剛剛這麼多國民黨的委員的版本卻不管是18條還是19條卻硬要設置相關基金來下一張"},{"start":173.464,"end":200.78,"text":"昨天在立法院 院會我們的複議案沒有通過兩個複議案都沒有通過中央政府總預算案還有財化法而相關混亂的財政相關的法案上路之後我們都不知道還會有多少地方政府的困境還會有多少中央機關的困境都還沒有辦法盤點清楚的情況下我還是很感謝昭偉排了青年基本法但是國民黨的版本裡面一再一再幾乎每一個委員都有類似的提案"},{"start":201.44,"end":215.67,"text":"那我要拜託教育部我們要堅守我們的態度所以剛剛我剛剛講了已經有法源依據而且次長就您的認知當中基金跟寬裂相關經費是不一樣的所以我必須要拜託次長是不是可以在這邊承諾我們後續在主條討論的時候我們要如何守住這條線"},{"start":221.838,"end":248.487,"text":"我想這個原則我們還是在這個我們不能違反財政紀律法所以我們在我們的草案擬定的時候會把這個納入參考好那我們來看最後一張我想相關很多專家學者都已經說了我就不再贅述我時間有限了最後一張我想除了是所有青年下一張我們所有的支持所有民進黨委員的支持我想教育部都感受到了但是我這邊要再次的公開的呼籲用我自己質詢的時間我想要提"},{"start":250.087,"end":268.187,"text":"請這些有提出違法疑慮的提案的國民黨委員重新思考回頭試案包括在青年基本法設置基金還有那昨天已經沒有辦法回頭的相關復議案但是我覺得把兩件事情合在一起看我們更可以看見相關違法亂證的部分這是我個人的立場好 以上謝謝主席 謝謝次長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":839,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時33分）謝謝主席。有請次長。"],["主席：有請葉次長。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長午安。我想要跟您快速確定一下未來青年基本法的主管機關應該還是會落在教育部，對不對？"],["葉次長丙成：是，教育部。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以這個業務跟您有關，但是在目前所有委員提出來的版本裡面，我認為有非常多委員的提案有違法的疑慮，我今天必須要在詢答當中提醒次長。","我們來看一下，我們都知道青年基本法的立法精神是為了保護青年發展權利、擴大青年參與決策，我們有更多的資源可以協助青年，就如同剛剛邱志偉委員說的，各部會必須要寬列預算支持所有的青年政策。可是寬列預算跟設置專門的基金這件事情，我不知道在次長您的認知當中是一樣的嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：這兩件事情是不一樣的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，不一樣，怎麼樣的不一樣法？"],["葉次長丙成：如果是基金的話，根據財政紀律法，它是需要有財源才能夠設置基金，所以這個跟寬列預算是不一樣的。"],["陳委員培瑜：我的認知也是這樣，當你要設置基金的時候你自己就必須要提出相對的財源，目前我看了今天召委所排案的版本裡面，在葉元之、林沛祥委員的提案版本，他們是放在第十九條；羅廷瑋委員的提案版本是放在第十八條；魯明哲、楊瓊瓔、許宇甄、游顥、邱若華、羅廷瑋委員放的是第十九條；葛如鈞、林沛祥、鄭正鈐、洪孟楷、張智倫放的是第十八條，他們的寫法幾乎是一模一樣的，叫做「行政院應設置青年發展基金」，因為今天已經在做詢答了，我不知道後續在討論的時候，這個部分教育部有沒有先做出相關的研究、討論跟回應？他們的版本如果要繼續強烈的要求教育部設置相關青年發展基金，你們要怎麼辦？"],["葉次長丙成：我想就還是要依法……"],["陳委員培瑜：還是你可以請你的同仁幫你回答？"],["葉次長丙成：好，我請署長。"],["陳署長雪玉：這個部分我們依法行政，如果說目前財政紀律法沒有法源的話，那我們就沒有辦法這樣子去做設置。"],["陳委員培瑜：我幫次長補充，因為剛剛次長卡卡的，我自己很喜歡繪本，也很喜歡很有趣的梗圖，財政紀律法第七條告訴我們：各級政府及立法機關制（訂）定或修正法律、法規或自治法規時，不得增訂固定經費額度或比率保障，或將政府既有收入以成立基金方式限定專款專用。其實財政紀律法已經給次長、給教育部工具了，但剛剛這麼多國民黨的委員的版本中，不管是第十八條還是第十九條卻硬要設置相關基金！","昨天在立法院院會，我們的兩個覆議案都沒有通過，包括中央政府總預算案還有財劃法。而混亂的財政相關法案上路之後，我們都不知道還會有多少地方政府的困境、還會有多少中央機關的困境都還沒有辦法盤點清楚的情況下，我還是很感謝召委排了青年基本法，但是國民黨的版本裡面一再、一再，幾乎每一個委員都有類似提案，那我要拜託教育部，我們要堅守我們的態度，所以我剛剛講了，已經有法源依據，而且就次長您的認知當中，基金跟寬列相關經費是不一樣的，所以我必須要拜託次長，是不是可以在這邊承諾，我們後續在逐條討論的時候要如何守住這條線？"],["葉次長丙成：我想這個原則……我們還是不能違反財政紀律法，所以在我們的草案擬定的時候會把這個納入參考。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們來看最後一張，我想相關很多專家學者都已經說了，時間有限，我就不再贅述。所有民進黨委員對於青年的支持，我想教育部都感受到了，但是我這邊要用我自己質詢的時間再次公開地呼籲，我想要請這些有提出違法疑慮提案的國民黨委員重新思考，回頭是岸，包括在青年基本法設置基金，還有昨天已經沒有辦法回頭的相關覆議案，但是我覺得把兩件事情合在一起看，我們更可以看見相關違法亂政的部分，這是我個人的立場。以上。謝謝主席、謝謝次長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。次長請回。","接下來請蘇清泉委員，蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","接下來請李坤城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-2","speakers":["林宜瑾","黃捷","林楚茵","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","林德福","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","范雲","吳思瑤","邱志偉","陳培瑜","李坤城"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基\n本法草案」案；三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；四、審查委員吳思瑤等\n47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；六、\n審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法\n草案」案；八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；九、審查委員王美惠等17人\n擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十一、審\n查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十二、審查委員葛如鈞等19人擬具「青年基本\n法草案」案；十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十四、審查委員魯明哲\n等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；\n十六、審查委員葉元之等 20 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十七、審查委員林德福等 20 人擬具\n「青年發展基本法草案」案；十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案 (僅進行\n詢答)","agenda_id":"1142601_00009"}}},{"id":"159160","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159160","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f6eb21b7fda7e7e4ffc7dc3b86466824c86f8ffab8834d98379b5a1982509e2505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:30:03 - 12:37:06","影片長度":"00:07:03","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:30:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:37:06+08:00","duration":423,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.219093750000003,"end":14.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.762843750000002,"end":16.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.83846875,"end":17.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.32784375,"end":18.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.02346875,"end":21.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.407218750000002,"end":23.402843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.53784375,"end":24.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.769718750000003,"end":29.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.69721875,"end":33.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.759718750000005,"end":37.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.28659375,"end":39.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.27784375,"end":44.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.17159375,"end":48.664718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.900968750000004,"end":50.909093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.94284375,"end":61.422218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.81034375,"end":62.502218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.87346875,"end":65.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.94471875,"end":71.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.95221875,"end":73.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.11221875000001,"end":80.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.04784375,"end":85.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.87409375,"end":89.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.95784375000001,"end":112.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.83596875,"end":119.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.97846875,"end":121.53096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.15534375000001,"end":123.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.38284375,"end":140.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.15659375,"end":142.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.91159375,"end":148.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.17221875,"end":152.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.81721875000002,"end":157.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.16659375,"end":180.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.09534375,"end":185.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.94284375,"end":203.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.89784375000002,"end":213.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.31409375,"end":214.78221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.56284375,"end":242.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.46909375,"end":220.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.49096875,"end":243.45284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.45284375000003,"end":243.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.50346875000002,"end":244.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.52034375000002,"end":244.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.17846875,"end":244.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.56659375,"end":244.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.61721875,"end":245.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.03909375,"end":245.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.10659375,"end":246.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.33846875,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.35534375,"end":247.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.46409375000002,"end":254.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.99534375000002,"end":257.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.64034375,"end":260.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.53034375000004,"end":268.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.04784375,"end":272.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.11909375,"end":277.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.24471875,"end":281.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.48909375,"end":286.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.40409375,"end":285.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.95659375,"end":287.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.63159375000004,"end":290.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.58471875000004,"end":297.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.97596875,"end":302.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.41471875,"end":298.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.81096875000003,"end":304.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.63721875000005,"end":306.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.97034375000004,"end":308.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.41721875,"end":310.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.81784375,"end":314.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.91909375,"end":310.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.78346875,"end":327.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.58409375,"end":321.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.61346875000004,"end":323.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.55784375,"end":344.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.67159375,"end":328.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.67971875,"end":331.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.69221875,"end":331.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.29971875,"end":332.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.05909375000005,"end":333.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.31596875,"end":336.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.17659375,"end":337.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.20471875000004,"end":346.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.22159375,"end":356.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.37346875000003,"end":348.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.75596875,"end":362.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.93721875,"end":357.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.23596875000004,"end":370.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.78846875000005,"end":364.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.11284375,"end":374.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.46596875,"end":385.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.55284375,"end":389.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.70846875,"end":390.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.24409375000005,"end":394.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.77096875,"end":398.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.27659375,"end":402.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.68534375,"end":405.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.46159375,"end":407.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.27971875000003,"end":415.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.42159375,"end":418.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.49721875,"end":421.68659375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.213,"end":15.375,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們是不是有請我們部長 政部長部長請 市長那請市長"},{"start":21.315,"end":37.604,"text":"委員好,市長,這個3月10號,也就是幾天前,有一個新聞那這個新聞,它的標題是說車手犯二十案,都稱沒有報仇,所以獲得輕判"},{"start":38.342,"end":61.132,"text":"那他有稍微講述一下這個犯罪的過程是有一個叫做姓方的男子他在2023年的時候首次犯案就是6月7號首次犯案跟被害人當車手拿了60萬然後他坦承犯刑 宣稱沒有拿到報酬結果台中地方法院減刑 判一年六個月"},{"start":61.872,"end":82.783,"text":"但是他首次犯案是6月7號他在7月4號又當車手又跟另外一個賴姓婦人拿了250萬那後來台北地方法院也是輕判一年有期徒刑病科罰金10萬那量刑還比6月7號的260萬還要低"},{"start":85.916,"end":110.087,"text":"但還有在被抓後被抓後因為他沒有被羈押沒有被羈押所以這個人真的很可惡第三次7月5號7月17號又在苗栗跟一個黃姓被害人取走了59萬一樣坦承犯刑但是宣稱沒有拿到報酬苗栗紀院還是給他減刑判處一年10個月並科罰金6萬元"},{"start":114.094,"end":123.027,"text":"這個是法院的判決當然站在法務部的立場你們不希望會有這樣的判決但是現在看起來現實面就是這樣啊"},{"start":124.454,"end":147.699,"text":"警察這麼辛苦的去抓詐騙 警察官也投入了好多的心力開庭 然後審理 立庭審理 然後做相對應證據的一個調查對被害人的一些保全的一個作為 都做了啊結果咧 第一個 車手沒有羈押 他繼續詐騙第二個 車手可能年紀輕"},{"start":149.332,"end":176.627,"text":"沒什麼財力然後他坦承犯刑然後只要宣稱我沒有拿到報酬就沒有犯罪所得我想這個我們的這個詐騙的防治條例我們是47條是規定犯詐欺犯罪在偵查及歷次審判中均自白如有犯罪所得自願繳交其犯罪所得者減輕其刑"},{"start":177.367,"end":203.769,"text":"哇 結果看起來是這後面有軍師會教這個車手都說沒有犯罪所得沒有犯罪所得不用繳交所以我想請教次長齁是不是可以清楚的定義到底犯罪所得是我剛剛念的兩百六十萬兩百五十萬或者是五十九萬這三次的當車手去給人家拿的是犯罪所得還是他的報酬是犯罪所得我想次長這個是要清楚的定義一下"},{"start":204.209,"end":228.578,"text":"各位報告齁 這個在修法之後本部跟相關的講到這一關我們一直是主張這個犯罪所得是指被害的金額啦 詐騙的金額就被騙的金額對對對 而不是說犯罪所得但如果他們零所得他自白就可以減刑這不是我們當初立法的目的我們立法要加重這個刑責就是他前提他必須要繳交他的整個詐欺的犯罪的那些財務損失才叫做 才讓他減那這個問題事實上在實務上已經產生一個爭議嘛齁"},{"start":232.56,"end":256.954,"text":"那現在事實上我們的這個最高法院的大法庭他即將要就這個案子來進行相關的統一解釋我們就等到最高法院他做一個實務上的見解一個統一就是我剛念的這個案子不是這個案子實務上有類似的情形類似的狀況所以現在我要跟次長說現在真的就是車手氾濫而且這些車手咧第一個有些狀況說車手也是被害人說車手也是被騙的"},{"start":261.195,"end":286.614,"text":"說他可能只是去一個一家公司應徵然後叫他去那邊當個跑腿結果他就變成車手但是我感覺不管是不是都要處罰啦車手在實務上他是共犯啊對他是共犯啊可是問題很多車手他會主張他是被害人啊他會說我也是風騙的啊但是沒關係次長你剛才說的意思很清楚車手也是共犯我就支持你這句話"},{"start":288.314,"end":307.826,"text":"車手不要再裝無辜,每個車手都很會裝無辜,看鞭筋有型跟沒型,看鞭筋要打動錢跟不動錢,這樣而已但是具體個案上就是法官去判斷他是不是...當然啦,法官有短緩判斷,但是我對法院的判斷非常的不滿,他就是輕判,車手就是輕判"},{"start":309.828,"end":327.2,"text":"該罰的錢沒有罰對車手該應該要有的扣押作為我們法務部有做嗎扣押我們是長期以來我們都要求檢察官甚至通行要求檢察官那第一時間就要進行相關的查扣針對車手個人的一些財產狀況犯罪所得我們都要積極的進行查扣這部裡面很重要的一個政策方向"},{"start":327.56,"end":344.426,"text":"犯罪所得,當然犯罪所得是我剛剛講的啊是指他的被害人的傷害就是犯罪所得啊不是說他有沒有報仇啊他可能每次報仇就我遭一招我捏幾萬塊一開他就沒了結果他就說沒有犯罪所得法官還相信欸"},{"start":346.503,"end":374.041,"text":"事實上這是法官量刑的問題啦我們有很多次跟司法院召開相關會議我們希望他在這個量刑的因子的部分可以多增加一些事實上我具體建議以後法官這種輕判的 法務部硬起來改記者回答 換你每次回答各位報告我們相關的法紮專法有要求檢管官要求刑可以求刑 甚至可以要求檢管官要上訴在延遲編通終結後我們會有具體求刑的要求啊問題法官想做什麼我們都不知道"},{"start":375.506,"end":393.438,"text":"他不知道這些車手氾濫就是現在詐騙最嚴重的因為很多詐騙都是在虛擬世界完成他的詐騙行為但是總是要怎麼拿到錢就是實體交易啊啊這個實體交易就車手最貴分所以這部分法務部法院都要繼續這樣侵犯我認為我們該要對社會發聲我們也是要對社會發聲不可能讓法務部這樣搞"},{"start":400.252,"end":420.2,"text":"讓那個司法院這樣搞好不好所以我還是給因為我知道啦打詐這件事情從我們所有的檢察官我們所有的基層的警力大家都很辛苦都很用心投入但是打詐還是這麼多最嚴重的就是車手輕判這件事我們要正視好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1365,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時30分）謝謝主席，那是不是有請部長？"],["主席：部長請假。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，3月10日也就是幾天前有一個新聞，這個新聞的標題是車手犯20案，都稱沒有報酬，所以獲得輕判，那他有稍微講述一下這個犯罪的過程。有一個姓方的男子在2023年首次犯案，就是6月7日首次犯案，當車手跟被害人拿了260萬，然後他坦承犯行，宣稱沒有拿到報酬，結果臺中地方法院減刑，判1年6個月。他首次犯案是6月7日，但是他在7月4日又當車手，跟另一個賴姓婦人拿了250萬，後來臺北地方法院也是輕判1年有期徒刑，併科罰金10萬，量刑還比6月7日的260萬還要低。但在被抓後因為沒有被羈押，這個人真的很可惡，第3次7月17日又在苗栗跟一個黃姓被害人取走了59萬，一樣坦承犯行，但是宣稱沒有拿到報酬，苗栗地院還是給他減刑，判處1年10個月，併科罰金6萬元。","這個是法院的判決，當然站在法務部的立場，你們不希望會有這樣的判決，但是現在看起來現實面就是這樣，警察這麼辛苦的去抓詐騙，檢察官也投入了好多的心力，開庭然後審理，立庭審理然後作相對應證據的調查，對被害人的一些保全作為都做了，結果呢？第一個，車手沒有羈押，他繼續詐騙；第二個，車手可能年紀輕，也沒什麼財力，然後他坦承犯行，並且只要宣稱沒有拿到報酬，就沒有犯罪所得。詐騙防制條例第四十七條是規定犯詐欺犯罪，在偵查及歷次審判中均自白，如有犯罪所得，自動繳交其犯罪所得者，減輕其刑，結果看起來是後面有軍師在教這些車手，都說沒有犯罪所得，沒有犯罪所得就不用繳交。我想要請教次長，是不是可以清楚的定義，到底犯罪所得是我剛剛唸的260萬、250萬、59萬這3次當車手跟人家拿的是犯罪所得，還是他的報酬是犯罪所得？我要求次長，這是不是要清楚的定義一下？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個在修法之後，本部跟相關的檢察機關一直主張這個犯罪所得指的是被害的金額，詐騙的金額。"],["蔡委員易餘：被騙的金額。"],["黃次長謀信：對，而不是他的犯罪所得，如果他0所得，自白就可以減輕，不是我們當初立法的目的。我們立法要加重這個刑責，前提是他必須要繳交整個詐欺犯罪的財物，才讓他減。這個問題在實務上已經產生了爭議，事實上最高法院的大法庭，即將要就這個案子來進行相關的統一解釋，我們就等最高法院實務上見解的統一。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是我剛剛唸的這個案子？"],["黃次長謀信：不是這個案子，實務上有類似的情形。"],["蔡委員易餘：類似的狀況。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：我要跟次長說，現在真的就是車手氾濫，而且這些車手，第一個，有些狀況說車手也是被害人，說車手也是被騙的，說可能只是去一家公司應徵，然後叫他去那邊當個跑腿，結果他就變成車手。但是我覺得不管是不是，都要處罰。"],["黃次長謀信：車手在實務上是共犯。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，他是共犯，可是問題是很多車手會主張他是被害人，他會說他也是被人騙的。但是沒關係，次長你剛剛說的意思很清楚，車手也是共犯，我就支持你這句話。"],["黃次長謀信：對，他是共犯。"],["蔡委員易餘：車手不要再裝無辜，每個車手都很會裝無辜，看演得像不像，看演得法官會不會同情他，這樣而已。"],["黃次長謀信：對，但是具體個案上就是法官去判斷他是不是……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然，法官有法官的判斷，但是我對法院的判斷非常不滿，他就是輕判，車手就是輕判，該罰的錢沒有罰，對車手應該要有的扣押作為，法務部有做嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：扣押我們是長期以來都要求檢察官，甚至通函要求檢察官在第一時間要進行相關的查扣。"],["蔡委員易餘：針對車手個人的財產狀況。"],["黃次長謀信：犯罪所得我們都要進行積極的查扣，這是部裡面很重要的一個政策方向。"],["蔡委員易餘：犯罪所得……"],["黃次長謀信：對，查扣。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然犯罪所的是我剛才講的，被害人的傷害就是犯罪所得，不是說他有沒有報酬。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：他每次報酬可能跑一趟才領幾萬塊，錢花完就沒了，他就說沒有犯罪所得，法官還相信，這真的是很糟糕。"],["黃次長謀信：事實上，這是法官量刑的問題，我們也很多次跟司法院召開相關會議，我們希望在量刑因子可以多增加一些犯罪被害人……"],["蔡委員易餘：次長，我具體建議，以後法官這種輕判的，法務部硬起來，記者會上該反擊法院的時候就要反擊。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，打詐專法有要求檢察官可以求刑，甚至檢察官要上訴，對法院的判決，我們要求上訴。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然我們力挺在言詞辯論終結後，我們會有具體求刑的要求，問題是不知道法官在想什麼，他不知道這些車手氾濫就是現在詐騙最嚴重的，因為很多詐騙都是在虛擬世界完成詐騙行為，但是總是要怎麼拿到錢，就實體交易呀！實體交易就是車手最過分，這部分你們法務部，如果法院都要繼續這樣輕判，我覺得我們該對社會發聲就要對社會發聲，不可以讓司法院這樣搞，好不好？所以我還是給……"],["黃次長謀信：我們會要求檢察官，量刑不符合要上訴。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為我知道，打詐這件事情，從我們所有的檢察官，我們所有基層的警力，大家都很辛苦，都很用心投入，但是打詐還是這麼多，最嚴重的就是車手輕判，這件事情我們要正視，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：好，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請洪孟楷委員發言，洪孟楷、洪孟楷。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩。","所有登記發言委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時有要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請機關儘速送交各個委員及本會。","本次會議進行到此結束，現在散會，謝謝大家。","散會（12時37分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","柯建銘","王義川","吳思瑤","黃國昌","王鴻薇","沈發惠","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00011"}}},{"id":"159159","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159159","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fe131428ab275b0a1b0efe61acdb48b4e86f8ffab8834d983b70c920121590e455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"12:26:26 - 12:34:10","影片長度":"00:07:44","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【如本院改為加開院會，則本次會議取消，不另行通知。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:26:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:34:10+08:00","duration":464,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.000343750000001,"end":7.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.91159375,"end":11.235968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.708468750000002,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.860343750000002,"end":12.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.51846875,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.552218750000002,"end":12.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.589718750000003,"end":15.657218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.766593750000002,"end":33.612218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.76409375,"end":35.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.85659375,"end":36.649718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.91971875,"end":38.252843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.67034375,"end":40.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.070968750000006,"end":41.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.14659375,"end":43.500968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.63596875,"end":46.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.80471875,"end":48.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.955968750000004,"end":50.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.24659375,"end":52.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.001593750000005,"end":55.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.744093750000005,"end":56.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.24159375,"end":56.680343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.86596875,"end":57.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.77721875,"end":59.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.844718750000006,"end":57.861593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.047218750000006,"end":58.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.55346875,"end":58.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.346593750000004,"end":64.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.649718750000005,"end":64.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.71284375,"end":72.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.77596875,"end":66.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.70346875,"end":72.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.54284375,"end":100.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.99409375,"end":107.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.47409375000001,"end":113.51534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.46534375,"end":110.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.86971875,"end":120.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.80971875,"end":120.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.65346875,"end":120.70409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.70409375000001,"end":120.72096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.72096875000001,"end":124.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.01159375,"end":172.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.66221875000002,"end":174.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.77596875,"end":185.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.60971875,"end":188.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.13284375,"end":186.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.62596875,"end":188.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.03096875,"end":194.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.82346875000002,"end":197.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.77221875,"end":197.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.95784375000002,"end":201.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.38784375,"end":201.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.45096875000002,"end":201.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.48471875,"end":201.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.97409375,"end":201.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.31159375000001,"end":203.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.39596875,"end":212.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.36971875,"end":208.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.38659375,"end":209.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.29284375,"end":214.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.84971875000002,"end":273.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.84909375,"end":273.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.94596875,"end":284.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.03721875,"end":296.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.90846875,"end":300.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.30471875,"end":320.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.46909375,"end":301.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.17909375,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.97221875,"end":334.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.30346875000004,"end":338.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.03284375000004,"end":339.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.31534375,"end":341.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.07471875000005,"end":343.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.16721875,"end":373.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.13284375,"end":376.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.95096875,"end":377.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.98471875,"end":379.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.70159375000003,"end":393.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.18909375000004,"end":392.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.89784375000005,"end":394.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.09596875,"end":398.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.17534375,"end":403.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.64346875,"end":401.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.76971875000004,"end":407.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.61284375,"end":417.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.60284375000003,"end":449.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.86784375,"end":450.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.00284375,"end":450.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.03659375,"end":450.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.79596875000004,"end":456.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.74034375,"end":463.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.83721875000003,"end":457.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.01846875,"end":458.18721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.92096875000004,"end":462.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.43971875000005,"end":462.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.70971875000004,"end":463.36784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.028,"end":11.099,"text":"好謝謝主席有請數位發展部部長請部長好"},{"start":18.066,"end":41.618,"text":"各位好部長好首先本席肯定數位部推動各項這個數位政策那這個近期你們有一個數位皮夾的計畫我想問一下這一本這個今天的這個業務概況報告有沒有提到數位皮夾我看了很久沒看到只看到mydata有嗎有數位皮夾嗎第幾頁有嗎有還是沒有"},{"start":43.729,"end":66.389,"text":"因為這是一個很大的計畫我很高興啊 它是一個新的計畫但是沒在裡面啊 這個我們現在2025年這個業務概況報告 研發的過程有嗎我漏看了喔 對不對17頁 好 OK這個也希望依據我們這個相關的資料有寫到數位皮夾嗎 對不對好 我們來好好的關注一下"},{"start":66.989,"end":95.891,"text":"也讓這個部長可以依據這個報告我們就可以來回應我先幫你們廣告一下就是什麼是數位皮夾它其實就是數位憑證那可以幫助我們的生活更方便所以我想有這樣的事情大家都一起來合作但是我想速發部過去在推動一些應用上面是有一些潛力也希望部長能夠跟同仁一起繼續教訓打造通茶網其實在去年這個封測結束以後曾經有說12月要重新上架"},{"start":96.351,"end":113.343,"text":"那我們現在呢 是已經三月份了 系統還沒看到請問是不是已經上線了對 那個我們一月多就請各部會幫忙測試那已經報院 那院只要通過我們就上架所以現在是院在測就對了啦仔細小心啦 是不是 是這樣嗎那有沒有預計什麼時候要上"},{"start":113.885,"end":136.677,"text":"就是我們這個行政院這個因為現在在行政院測試我們是希望盡快但是這個還在跟行政院沒有時間表現在希望在就是對就是盡快好希望加速另外呢這個碎皮夾的這個計畫我想我也再次幫你們廣告忘記帶證件也ok但是呢其實我們現在有看到這個計畫有可能在未來會出現一些技術整合的問題"},{"start":137.757,"end":145.781,"text":"因為這整個計畫一下子說是身份一下子又說是憑證一下子又說健保卡但是我們又看到幾個點第一個我們現在台灣所使用的這個憑證多半是採用X509的這個簽證系統"},{"start":153.064,"end":172.211,"text":"那本來數位評價裡面是沒有簽章的部分或簽章是比較晚去做的但是現在我們在記者會還有很多的這個地方都看到好像之後可以做簽章但是記者會裡面記者問說能不能憑數位評價內的健保卡掛號結果又是不行所以到底是要不要帶證件要不要帶卡"},{"start":173.191,"end":188.402,"text":"這個部長有沒有了解這個逐步推動因為現在在衛福部這一邊他們現在是先把一些就是這個我剛講健保卡的因為健保卡的這個牽涉到後端有很多醫療陣營所的那個所以數位皮卡的計畫最後到底要不要帶健保卡出門"},{"start":189.275,"end":212.109,"text":"希望將來是可以把健保卡放在皮夾裡面但是這個是逐步所以這一次編列的這個數位皮夾預算有沒有包含這個部分我們在臉底的沙盒裡面最後會有有還是沒有健保卡跟後端整合的部分在這次預算並沒有包含沒有嘛可是這次預算有做健保卡數位化"},{"start":215.133,"end":235.436,"text":"這個我想部長要搞清楚啦因為我覺得民間現在有點搞得一團混亂一下又說不用帶健保卡一下又說沒有辦法就是這個驗證健保卡但是你你你又說一下又說有簽章的部分又說沒有包含這個預算大家有點搞不清楚一定要講清楚不然的話會發生一些系統相容性的疑慮因為我們目前的"},{"start":235.876,"end":263.143,"text":"各大憑證政府內部的憑證都是需要用傳統的簽章機制但是你們現在並不是傳統的簽章機制因為簽章可能放在後期甚至這一次預算裡都沒有所以你們如果推了這個我說健保卡放進去可以做所謂的VC那其他的部會如果要驗證你的健保卡是否Valid或者是否日期沒有過期那他還要再發展他自己的掃碼的這個所謂的查核"},{"start":263.683,"end":283.663,"text":"就是說變成說未來有可能會有多個系統公務員公務機關很可能醫院等等還要一手拿手機一手插讀卡機會不會有這樣的狀況啊多重驗證的狀況我們當然是希望不會啦所以這個東西將來就是說在我們在整合說為什麼沙盒就是把這些問題能夠再把它就是在這裡面過程中把它排除"},{"start":284.063,"end":293.174,"text":"好我提示部長在過去只要有沙盒到最後進去的都不一定出得來但希望這個跨部會的整合可以讓沙盒可以更順利同時這個沙盒的測試也應該要趕快開始沙盒什麼時候啟動數位評價"},{"start":298.308,"end":320.661,"text":"這位委員這邊就寫三月底啟動我這邊是我寫的啊你們也是三月底嗎好那要儘快同時呢壓力資安跟法律的測試要到位上一次通查網的計畫希望大家記取教訓上一次有很多資安法律各自的問題同時我們這次數月皮夾說會開放程式碼請問我們開放程式碼使用是哪個license"},{"start":324.243,"end":333.57,"text":"開放城市碼部分的license我們目前使用的會是open source initiative就是開放城市促進會的標準"},{"start":335.373,"end":354.16,"text":"能不能大家可以自己fork自己build可以還是不可以可以自己fork自己build是他可以自己fork自己build太好了謝謝最後還有一個點啦謝謝這個趙偉再給我一點點時間你們在官方的頁面上面有提出你們會使用區塊鏈的技術但是這一次呢"},{"start":354.52,"end":377.77,"text":"有這個民間的這個業者還有研究者發現整場記者會完全沒有提及區塊鏈也沒有實作區塊鏈請問第一你們到底有沒有用區塊鏈左邊這張圖是你們自己官網上的第一到底有沒有用區塊鏈第二用哪一個區塊鏈第三標案裡面到底有沒有區塊鏈的工作是有區塊鏈那細節是不是請那個"},{"start":379.921,"end":406.877,"text":"跟我們回報 碩皮證皮夾本身的三個機構發證持有跟驗證不會用到區塊鏈可是有一個東西會用到就是可信任清單就是誰可以發證 知道 用哪一個區塊鏈對這塊會用到區塊鏈那至於用哪一個鏈目前還在評估中 是所以沙盒不會驗到這個部分那你信任清單在沙盒裡面你要存在哪裡目前還沒有在沙盒裡面去驗信任清單"},{"start":409.315,"end":426.61,"text":"會規劃進去只是現在3月底的部分我們是會三合十除了是發證跟那個驗證這兩端好所以沒有希望好最後我想希望這個通查網的報告可以提出過去這個狀況以及現在到底什麼時候要推出"},{"start":427.29,"end":446.845,"text":"就等你們這個院測試啦那我想這個報告不要節省你們多一點時間這個左邊這個要求我就取消但是希望可以早一點提出第二希望有技術相關的公聽會要有品證技術的社群代表第三呢數位評價區塊鏈技術早一點讓我們了解可不可以再有這樣的一個公聽會可以召開讓這個業界產業都可以進去"},{"start":449.667,"end":461.675,"text":"應該是可以是跟委員報告今年會召開大概20層左右的各式會議那這部分我們要把它放在裡面要有憑證專家要有區塊鏈專家好不好希望不要辜負我們科技之島的美名是好謝謝謝謝謝謝部長謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":692,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（12時26分）謝謝主席，有請數位發展部黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：葛委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長好。首先本席肯定數位部推動的各項數位政策，你們近期有一個數位皮夾的計畫，請問今天這一本業務概況報告，有沒有提到數位皮夾？我看了很久，都沒看到，只看到MyData，有數位皮夾嗎？有還是沒有？在第幾頁？因為這是一個很大的計畫，我很高興……"],["黃部長彥男：它是一個新的計畫。"],["葛委員如鈞：但是沒在裡面！有在2025年的業務概況報告─研發的過程裡面嗎？是不是我漏看了？"],["莊司長盈志：有，在第17頁。"],["葛委員如鈞：OK，希望相關的資料，有寫到數位皮夾？"],["黃部長彥男：對，就是寫到那個。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們來好好關注一下，部長也可以依據這個報告來回應。我先幫你們廣告一下什麼是數位皮夾，它其實就是數位憑證，可以幫助我們的生活更方便，請大家都一起來合作；但因數發部過去在推動應用上面有一些前例，希望部長能夠跟同仁一起記取教訓。","打詐通查網在去年封測結束以後，曾經說過12月要重新上架，可是現在都已經3月份了，系統還沒看到，請問是不是已經上線了？"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們1月多就請各部會幫忙測試，已經報院，只要院通過了，我們就上架。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以現在是院在測試仔細小心，是不是這樣？有沒有預計什麼時候要上架？"],["黃部長彥男：因為現在行政院在測試，我們希望儘快，但是這個還要再跟行政院……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以現在沒有時間表？"],["黃部長彥男：就是希望儘快。"],["葛委員如鈞：希望能夠加速！","另外針對數位皮夾這個計畫，我再幫你們廣告一次─忘記帶證件也OK！但是我們看到這個計畫，未來有可能會出現一些技術整合的問題，因為整個計畫一下子說是身分，一下子又說是憑證，一下又說健保卡。我們現在看到幾個點，第一，臺灣現在所使用的這個憑證，多半是採用X.509這個簽章系統，數位皮夾裡面本來是沒有簽章的部分，或簽章會比較晚去做，但我們現在在記者會，還有很多的地方看到的，好像之後可以做簽章，但是在記者會裡面，有記者問能不能憑數位皮夾內的健保卡掛號，結果又是不行，所以到底要不要帶證件？要不要帶卡？部長有沒有了解？"],["黃部長彥男：這個要逐步推動，我們剛剛講健保卡的部分，因為健保卡牽涉到後端很多醫療院所……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以數位皮夾的計畫，最後到底要不要帶健保卡出門？"],["黃部長彥男：希望將來是可以把健保卡放在皮夾裡面，但是這個要逐步，衛福部的……"],["葛委員如鈞：這次編列的數位皮夾預算，有沒有包含這個部分？"],["黃部長彥男：我們在年底的沙盒裡面……"],["葛委員如鈞：最後會有？有還是沒有？"],["莊司長盈志：跟委員報告，健保卡跟後端整合的部分，在這次預算並沒有包含。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有嘛！"],["莊司長盈志：對，可是這次的預算有做健保卡數位化。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想這個部分，部長要搞清楚，因為我覺得民間現在有一點混亂，一下說不用帶健保卡，一下又說沒有辦法驗證健保卡；一下說有簽章的部分，一下又說沒有包含這個預算，大家有點搞不清楚，所以一定要講清楚，不然就會發生系統相容性的疑慮，因為目前政府內部的憑證，都是用傳統的簽章機制，可是你們現在並不是傳統的簽章機制，因為簽章可能放在後期，甚至這一次的預算裡都沒有，如果你們推了這個─健保卡放進去，可以做所謂的VC，其他的部會如果要驗證你的健保卡是否valid，日期是否沒有過期，他們還要再發展它自己的掃碼，也就是所謂的查核，變成未來有可能會有多個系統──公務員、公務機關、醫院等等，可能要一手拿著手機、一手插讀卡機，會不會有這樣的狀況？也就是多重驗證的狀況！"],["黃部長彥男：我們當然是希望不會啦！所以這就是我們將來要再整合，為什麼要有沙盒？就是希望在過程中能夠把這些問題排除。"],["葛委員如鈞：我提醒部長，過去只要有沙盒，到最後進去的都不一定出得來，希望這個跨部會的整合可以讓沙盒更順利。同時，沙盒的測試也應該要趕快開始，數位皮夾的沙盒什麼時候啟動？"],["黃部長彥男：委員這邊寫的就是3月底啟動。"],["葛委員如鈞：我這邊是我寫的，你們也是3月底嗎？好，那要儘快！同時壓力、資安跟法律的測試也要到位，希望大家記取上次通查網計畫的教訓，上次有很多資安、法律、個資的問題。我們這次的數位皮夾說會開放程式碼，請問我們開放程式碼所使用的是哪個license？"],["莊司長盈志：跟委員報告，開放程式碼部分的license，我們目前使用的會是Open Source Initiative，就是開放程式促進會的標準。"],["葛委員如鈞：大家可不可以自己fork、自己build？"],["莊司長盈志：是的，他可以自己fork、自己build。"],["葛委員如鈞：太好了。最後，謝謝召委再給我一點點時間。你們在官方的頁面上提到會使用區塊鏈的技術，但是這一次有民間的業者還有研究者發現，整場記者會完全沒有提及區塊鏈，也沒有實作區塊鏈。左邊這張圖是你們自己官網上的，第一、到底有沒有用區塊鏈？第二、用哪一個區塊鏈？第三、標案裡面到底有沒有區塊鏈的工作？"],["黃部長彥男：是有區塊鏈，細節是不是請莊司長說明。"],["莊司長盈志：跟委員回報，數位皮夾本身的三個機構，包括發證、持有跟驗證，不會用到區塊鏈，但有一個東西會用到，就是可信任清單，就是誰可以發證……"],["葛委員如鈞：我知道，用哪一個區塊鏈？"],["莊司長盈志：對，這塊會用到區塊鏈；至於用哪一個鏈，目前還在評估中。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以沙盒不會驗到這個部分？你的信任清單在沙盒裡面要存在哪裡？"],["莊司長盈志：目前還沒有在沙盒裡面去驗信任清單，我們會規劃進去；我們3月底在沙盒實作的部分會是發證跟驗證這兩端。"],["葛委員如鈞：最後，本席希望通查網的檢討報告，可以提出過去的狀況，還有未來到底什麼時候要推出，現在就等行政院的測試，為了節省你們多一點的時間，我就取消左邊這個要求，但還是希望可以早一點提出；第二、希望召開技術相關的公聽會，要有憑證技術的社群代表；第三、數位皮夾的區塊鏈技術早一點讓我們了解，可不可以召開這樣的一個公聽會，讓業界產業都可以進去？"],["黃部長彥男：應該是可以。"],["莊司長盈志：跟委員報告，今年大概會召開20場左右的各式會議，這部分我們會把它放在裡面。"],["葛委員如鈞：要有憑證專家及區塊鏈專家，希望不要辜負我們科技之島的美名。"],["莊司長盈志：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。"],["主席：賴惠員、賴惠員、賴惠員委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","王美惠、王美惠、王美惠委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","陳培瑜、陳培瑜、陳培瑜委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請數位發展部儘速以書面答復。","本次會議結束，散會。","散會（12時35分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-2","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","黃健豪","林楚茵","游顥","葛如鈞"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00010"}}},{"id":"159158","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159158","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f04c3c684c8889c1cb0efe61acdb48b4e86f8ffab8834d983d4ef907c701a5e415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"12:17:49 - 12:26:09","影片長度":"00:08:20","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【如本院改為加開院會，則本次會議取消，不另行通知。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:17:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:26:09+08:00","duration":500,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.70596875,"end":3.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.308468750000001,"end":6.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.08846875,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.52721875,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.67909375,"end":28.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.63409375,"end":29.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.59596875,"end":31.739093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.047218750000003,"end":32.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.19471875,"end":32.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.51534375,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.034093750000004,"end":42.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.53471875,"end":46.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.930968750000005,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.517218750000005,"end":47.922218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.17534375,"end":48.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.900968750000004,"end":52.900343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.102843750000005,"end":54.807218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.04346875,"end":62.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.37971875,"end":63.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.24034375000001,"end":66.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.78846875,"end":69.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.83909375,"end":67.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.60659375,"end":72.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.64034375,"end":72.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.86346875000001,"end":74.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.41596875,"end":76.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.69409375000001,"end":124.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.09034375,"end":79.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.03096875,"end":81.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.10346875,"end":103.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.13721875,"end":103.40721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.99034375000001,"end":126.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.25159375000001,"end":130.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.76159375,"end":145.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.62846875,"end":149.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.61096875,"end":153.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.23909375000002,"end":176.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.07096875000002,"end":244.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.52846875,"end":245.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.68034375000002,"end":246.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.06409375,"end":255.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.26096875,"end":278.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.73846875000004,"end":309.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.19346875,"end":321.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.76971875000004,"end":335.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":335.96159375,"end":354.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.82784375,"end":404.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.31784375,"end":410.54909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.48596875000004,"end":412.23659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.54909375000005,"end":412.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.25346875,"end":412.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.27034375000005,"end":412.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.30409375000005,"end":412.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.31659375000004,"end":413.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.07596875,"end":426.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.79971875,"end":432.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.46971875,"end":438.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.26221875000005,"end":444.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.00784375,"end":497.87721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":497.84346875000006,"end":498.77159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.185,"end":26.14,"text":"謝謝主席那就有請部長請部長部長好部長好那想說也許剛才許多委員在提到這個AI產業的發展應用那我想請教一下部長在目前你看台灣我們在AI的產業發展是突飛猛進還是發展鈕固"},{"start":29.676,"end":42.565,"text":"分成幾個部分啦就簡單先回答我就好就是我們有在努力發展產業我知道努力就如果說是土匪猛進跟發展牛部你覺得目前我們的一個現況上我們是屬於哪一種"},{"start":43.824,"end":62.654,"text":"委員是說如果是土會猛進跟發展流步啊緩慢就是在也沒有真的緩慢但是我們可以更快應該這樣說好沒關係那本席還是要提到這個今年度跟去年度的這個預算來講的話那在速發部總共增加多少"},{"start":63.414,"end":71.088,"text":"我們去年通過的預算是71億對那今年今年目前因為這個是不是15億5000萬剩下51億他是不是增加15億5000萬沒有沒有是減少20億"},{"start":77.379,"end":102.902,"text":"昨天那一種資訊的時候其實那時候增加是15億5000萬但是我直接坦白講啦任何事情來講不要都推給藍白山預算因為在很多事情的預算的一個使用跟經費的使用上還有本席要提到還有不一定要隨著這個而起舞反而是許多事情來講我相信不管是國民黨委員民眾黨委員其實在許多的預算上還是會支持速發部"},{"start":103.782,"end":124.079,"text":"但是我坦白說很多的成果啊還是要能夠讓大家能夠來去檢視檢驗那我當然是也樂於那部長到時候你們再提出追加那許多合理的部分可以的部分我們當然也是會支持那至於說許多的一些部分我還是要提到"},{"start":125.08,"end":149.225,"text":"那在現在來講的話很多的過去在總預算來講三兆兩千多億那這次的話通過了也是兩兆九千多億其實整體的這個預算上來講是比以往都還要多啦那其實包含抒發包含很多部會報告委員我覺得您的數字就是"},{"start":149.765,"end":175.949,"text":"我坦白講這次總預算通過的話是兩昭九成多億也沒錯我是說樹花部去年是71億今年是51億我們是減少21億我們並沒有增加所以我們不知道16億增加是哪邊來的但是我們一部二署就是51億那去年一部二署是71億所以我們是工作增加但是呢錢變少這是我們最大困難而且出國經費全刪這個是我們最大困難"},{"start":176.489,"end":196.898,"text":"這個我坦白講國際會議上的一個呈現啦那其實回頭來講還是要讓社會各界能夠檢驗那有些是山有些是凍結但是整體的預算增加那以及包括在昨天的這個許多的質詢過程中其實各部會議也確實也有承認許多預算增加但是沒關係啊那這個議題的話大家各說各話"},{"start":198.038,"end":218.079,"text":"那回頭來講我們還是很樂於見到預算的追加還有你們的提出那我相信只要是合理有成果的我們一樣是很樂見其成那同樣的還是要回歸到剛才的一個議題就在於目前來講前面許多委員包括邱若驊委員黃江豪委員還有廖先生委員大家提到的這個AI的發展"},{"start":220.521,"end":244.697,"text":"那剛剛有提到包括像是這個公文系統的部分我們就看到了在目前來講許多機關的一個公文系統在應用上來講其實是各自為政那所以格式混亂那我想問一下在這個應用上來講以及速發部的一個整合上當然說現在我們看到PTT大家是都算是比較推崇新北市政府它的一個系統那要如何整合那個"},{"start":247.308,"end":254.913,"text":"的確現在政府的公務系統有好幾個系統那這個整合的就是說這個是不是請肅政司這邊說明一下"},{"start":256.92,"end":278.134,"text":"根委員報告因為我們這個每個機關它有自己的公文系統但是整個在交換的時候或是說是整個底層的那個部分的話現在是由那個檔案管理局在負責那在下一期的一個社會政府計畫裡面它也有提出要用AI的方式來做一個這個公文系統的一個模組讓各機關可以來做一個應用"},{"start":278.914,"end":308.086,"text":"好OK那也希望說能夠持續來加快的整合因為目前來講不只是要電子化那甚至雲端我相信部長其實是這領域的專業也希望說看到實際上能夠共享運用甚至格式上還能夠更為便利那以及剛才有提到的在AI的一個應用上那當然不管是Deep-seek或是目前在機關的使用但是在民間在一般的中小企業或是老百姓的這種使用上"},{"start":308.926,"end":328.468,"text":"的確實是推廣不足那如何讓大家能夠熟悉或是善用那我想請問一下目前在速發部有沒有相關的一個考照或培訓甚至是認證以及競賽的規劃我們有那個就是人才培育跟這個系統培育人才有幾種一種就是使用AI的人才"},{"start":328.948,"end":350.969,"text":"那種是那個就是研發AI人才跟研發應用的人才那這個東西我們都有在培育那當然就是說這個這個也會也是因為經費的關係所以我們培育的數目大概今年就是幾千人那當然我們是會再持續的去在這人才在做更多的能夠能夠人才真的很重要但是"},{"start":352.31,"end":377.313,"text":"就是目前的確會因為經費的受限我相信這個AI的發展它不是今年而已而且今年的總預算在昨天的話才又做這個行政院送出這個復一案所以說在去年前年大前年更是更之前的話其實本來就有充足的預算還持續在發展這個產業所以我會建議說不一定要任何事情都在扯到這個預算因為我坦白講我們希望的持續看到成效"},{"start":377.873,"end":404.545,"text":"我相信成效如果夠好的話我相信國民黨的委員會更加大力支持但沒關係那我想直接接著問在AI的應用啊其實目前來講的話也希望說能夠再藉由這個課綱的調整能夠實際上來導入在我們小朋友的一個學習身上那在現在的這個課綱以及導入AI的學習那我想請問一下目前速發部以及跟教育部在溝通上還有目前的進度如何"},{"start":406.777,"end":431.818,"text":"這個課綱方面那個是不是請因為這個我們跟教育部沒關係可以請謝謝委員關心這個議題那我們現在跟教育部有合作把AI雜耕到這個高中生所以我們有跟他們有這方面的合作但是還沒有到國小那些課綱那個這部分還沒有不過有雜耕到高中生"},{"start":432.518,"end":447.531,"text":"但是我說目前高中生的部分是有相關的一個教材有導入AI的一個知識或是教育不是教材我們會我們有一些是線上學習的課程那我們也會帶他們去國際大廠裡面去做觀摩好那沒關係因為時間是有限的那我同樣的"},{"start":448.371,"end":472.45,"text":"雖然目前來講預算預算這個部分其實成為一個政治議題但是我相信國民黨以及民眾黨的角度總是希望能夠勘緊荷包那當然合理的部分在凍結案的時候到時候解凍盡量送的話我們拿出成效的話一定會全力的支持因為我們看到過去的這個以前馬英九執政時期馬總執政時期總預算其實才一兆九千多"},{"start":473.09,"end":496.992,"text":"那現在的話通過是有史以來兩兆九千多但是在這過程中我還是肯定我們部長跟速發部積極能夠推動AI產業設施打造的一個目標跟企圖心那所以說在這裡還是期待未來來講的話我們速發部能夠針對將AI人才現在各國在搶還把許多人才能夠引進來台灣來持續努力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":648,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（12時17分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["游委員顥：部長好。延續剛剛許多委員提到的AI產業發展與應用，我想請教一下部長，你看目前臺灣的AI產業發展是突飛猛進還是發展牛步？"],["黃部長彥男：分成幾個部分啦！在……"],["游委員顥：你先簡單回答我就好。"],["黃部長彥男：就是我們有在努力發展，產業……"],["游委員顥：我知道在努力，但如果要說突飛猛進或發展牛步，你覺得在目前的現況上，我們是屬於哪一種？"],["黃部長彥男：委員是說如果是突飛猛進跟……"],["游委員顥：發展牛步啊！緩慢啦！"],["黃部長彥男：也沒有真的緩慢，但是我們可以更快，應該這樣說。"],["游委員顥：好，沒關係。","本席還是要提到，以今年度跟去年度預算來講的話，數發部總共增加多少？"],["黃部長彥男：我們去年通過的預算是71億元。"],["游委員顥：對，那今年？"],["黃部長彥男：關於今年，目前因為……"],["游委員顥：是不是15億5,000萬元？"],["黃部長彥男：剩下50億元。"],["游委員顥：那是不是增加15億5,000萬元？"],["黃部長彥男：沒有、沒有、沒有，是減少20億元。"],["游委員顥：沒有，昨天在總質詢的時候，其實是說增加15億5,000萬元。"],["黃部長彥男：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["游委員顥：我直接、坦白講啦！任何事情來講，不要都推給藍白刪預算，因為在很多事情的預算使用跟經費使用上，本席要提到，不一定要隨著起舞，反而是……以許多事情來講，我相信不管是國民黨委員、民眾黨委員，其實在許多預算上還是會支持數發部。"],["黃部長彥男：了解，不過……"],["游委員顥：但是我坦白說，很多成果還是要能夠讓大家檢視、檢驗。我當然也樂於如此，部長，到時候你們再提出追加，對於許多合理的部分，我們當然也會支持，至於許多的部分我還是要提到，就總預算來講，這次通過的也有二兆九千多億，在整體的預算數上是比以往都還要多，包含數發部還有很多的部會。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我覺得您的數字有誤，就是……"],["游委員顥：我坦白講，這次總預算通過的是二兆九千多億也沒錯。"],["黃部長彥男：我是說數發部去年的預算是71億，今年是51億，減少了20億，並沒有增加，所以我們不知道16億的增加是哪邊來的。我們一部二署就是51億，去年一部二署是71億，我們的工作增加，但是錢變少了，而且出國經費全刪，這都是我們最大的困難。"],["游委員顥：這個我坦白講，國際會議上的一個呈現，還是要讓社會各界能夠檢驗；當然裡面有些是刪，有些是凍結，但是整體的預算增加，包括在昨天許多的質詢過程中，其實各部會也確實承認有許多預算增加，沒有關係啦，這個議題，大家各說各話；但是回頭來講，我們還是很樂於見到預算的追加，還有你們提出來的，相信只要是合理、有成果的，我們一樣樂見其成。","再回歸到剛才的一個議題，前面許多委員包括邱若華委員、黃健豪委員，還有廖先翔委員，大家都提到AI的發展，也有提到公文系統的部分。我們看到目前許多機關的公文系統，在應用上面其實是各自為政，格式混亂，我想問一下這部分的應用，以及數發部在整合上的一些問題。我們從PPT可以看到，大家都比較推崇新北市政府的這個系統，問題是那要如何來整合？"],["黃部長彥男：政府現在的公文系統的確有好幾個，有關整合的問題，是不是請數政司這邊說明一下？"],["王司長誠明：跟委員報告，每個機關有它自己的公文系統，但是整個在交換的時候，或是整個底層的那個部分，現在是由檔案管理局在負責。在下一期的智慧政府計畫裡面，也提出了要用AI的方式來做這個公文系統的模組，讓各機關可以來做應用。"],["游委員顥：ok，希望能夠持續來加快整合，因為目前不只要電子化，甚至到雲端的部分，部長是這領域的專業，我們希望能看到實際上的共享運用，格式上能夠更為便利。另外剛才也提到，AI的應用上，不管是DeepSeek或是目前各機關所使用的，但是在民間及一般中小企業或是老百姓的使用上，都顯得推廣不足，我們要如何讓大家能夠熟悉或是善用？請問數發部目前有沒有相關的考照、培訓，甚至認證及競賽的規劃？"],["黃部長彥男：我們有人才培育系統，在培育人才的部分，有一種是使用AI的人才，還有一種是研發AI的人才跟研發應用的人才，這些我們都有在培育，培育的數目，今年大概就是幾千人，當然我們會持續去做，因為這人才真的很重要，但目前的確會因為經費的受限，所以沒辦法……"],["游委員顥：我相信AI的這個發展不是今年而已，而且今年的總預算案，行政院昨天又送出覆議案。其實在去年、前年、大前年，甚至更早之前，本來就有充足的預算，持續在發展這個產業。所以我建議不一定要任何事情都扯到這個預算，講坦白話，我們希望持續看到成效，成效如果夠好的話，我相信國民黨的委員反而會更加大力支持。另外在AI的應用上，本席希望藉由這個課綱的調整，能夠實際導入在小朋友的學習上。就現在的這個課綱要如何導入AI的學習，數發部跟教育部目前溝通的進度如何？"],["黃部長彥男：有關課綱方面是不是請林署長來說明？"],["游委員顥：可以。"],["林署長俊秀：請謝謝委員關心這個議題，我們現在跟教育部有這方面的合作，就是把AI扎根到高中生，但還沒有到國小課綱的部分，不過有扎根到高中生。"],["游委員顥：所以目前高中生的部分有相關的教材，有導入AI的一個知識或是教育？"],["林署長俊秀：不是教材，我們會有一些線上學習的課程，也會帶他們去國際大廠裡面做觀摩。"],["游委員顥：好，沒關係，因為時間有限，我要說的是，雖然刪預算這個部分，目前成為一個政治議題，但我相信從國民黨及民眾黨的角度，總是希望能夠看緊荷包，當然合理的部分，如凍結案的解凍，拿出成效的話，我們也一定會全力的支持。我們看到過去在馬英九總統執政時期的總預算其實才一兆九千多，現在通過的是有史以來的兩兆九千多；在這個過程中，我還是肯定部長跟數發部積極推動AI產業甚至打詐的這一個目標跟企圖心，現在各國都在搶AI人才，所以我們在這裡還是期待數發部未來能夠把許多人才引進臺灣來持續努力。謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-2","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","黃健豪","林楚茵","游顥","葛如鈞"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00010"}}},{"id":"159157","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159157","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f76c194a2405b2d74ba53b8a5773cfe3d86f8ffab8834d9834001ca9689ad817b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:27:41 - 12:33:21","影片長度":"00:05:40","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:27:41+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:33:21+08:00","duration":340,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.2122187500000001,"end":2.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.03784375,"end":12.501593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.923468750000001,"end":19.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.51784375,"end":17.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.73659375,"end":21.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.32284375,"end":24.567218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.22534375,"end":36.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.88596875,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.033468750000004,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.97346875,"end":46.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.36534375,"end":53.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.744093750000005,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.549093750000004,"end":66.56909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.44659375,"end":77.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.06096875,"end":89.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.68346875,"end":97.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.10846875,"end":102.34409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.01909375000001,"end":104.45346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.87534375000001,"end":107.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.59221875,"end":110.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.68034375,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.03471875000001,"end":113.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.97096875000001,"end":114.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.34221875,"end":114.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.52784375,"end":114.59534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.81034375,"end":117.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.29096875,"end":120.56909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.85596875,"end":131.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.68096875,"end":149.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.71221875,"end":149.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.43784375,"end":170.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.48909375000002,"end":174.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.02471875,"end":178.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.78346875,"end":180.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.36096875,"end":187.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.54159375,"end":190.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.83221875,"end":193.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.16096875000002,"end":194.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.27471875,"end":198.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.97034375,"end":209.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.78721875000002,"end":209.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.82096875000002,"end":217.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.83784375000002,"end":210.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.92096875000001,"end":218.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.96721875,"end":225.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.45971875,"end":249.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.68721875000003,"end":228.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.74721875,"end":251.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.05909375000002,"end":256.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.95284375,"end":259.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.66534375000003,"end":267.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.25909375000003,"end":279.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.22346875,"end":333.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.22971875,"end":295.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.52284375000005,"end":339.97784375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.244,"end":21.072,"text":"好 這個謝謝詹委謝謝主席 也請這個政務次長 葉次長好 請葉次長經濟部中小企業發展署 李署長好 請署長"},{"start":25.313,"end":46.238,"text":"時間寶貴,240秒第一個問題,這個院版會出來嗎?市長跟委員報告,我預計在這個會期院版會出來這個會期院版出來,是送到立法院還是送報院?我們在預計一個月後,一個月內會報行政院行政院還要核定,核定之後來送立法院再送立法院"},{"start":47.678,"end":66.166,"text":"這個很重要的法案,這個也不是只有一個委員提,跨黨派很多委員都有提我想看過內容,內容裡面是林益錦的版本最好我個人覺得方方面面各方面,我覺得他都提到對青年照顧是國家的責任"},{"start":67.769,"end":87.267,"text":"對親人的照顧是一個會做事的政府這個應該要放在施政的首要之一啦所以我覺得這個版本出來在委員會到現在還沒有已經排出來要審給你們壓力希望願版能夠早點出來所以你如果說在三個月之後才會進來對這個會計沒辦法審"},{"start":90.731,"end":114.316,"text":"越早通過越好這個有幾條比較就現有的委員提案版本裡面特別是要有一個專責單位專責單位您的看法是怎麼樣目前我們的草案專責單位就是教育部教育部裡面設什麼師嗎就是教育部擔任專責單位對 那執行單位呢"},{"start":118.362,"end":131.272,"text":"是跨部會?就是青年發案署那另外就是說你要有一定的預算規模就是寬列青年事務的預算專款專用那你覺得這個預算規模大概多少?"},{"start":133.997,"end":146.668,"text":"這個可能還要跨部會來計算啦因為現在目前在各個部會有非常多照顧青年的這個計畫那這個到底目前的這個計畫規模的時候我想這個還是要我們要再跟各部會來蒐集這樣的資訊再計算"},{"start":151.122,"end":169.717,"text":"這個重要性比青年概念很明確不是抽象的青年需要政府需要國家協助的事項更明確更多相對各種條件資源相對比較不足比較弱勢比起什麼所謂的壯士代我都莫名其妙您知道壯士代是什麼意思嗎55歲以上那你現在是壯士代嗎"},{"start":180.044,"end":189.862,"text":"還不是所以這個含糊不清的概念竟然成了一個法案哎 華天下之大雞"},{"start":191.874,"end":217.085,"text":"沒辦法我們這個還是把最重要的青年基本法趕快通過所以你的預算也但你版本應該已經有大概出過未來如果這個版本青年基本法通過之後你大概要一年要編列多少預算來協助青年事務的發展那我這個是個基本法所以我們不會把那個預算的金額列到這裡面來這樣子好"},{"start":218.004,"end":224.4,"text":"那我接著請教一下經濟部經濟部在經濟委會經濟委會是這個中小企業發展署這個"},{"start":226.519,"end":251.173,"text":"新創產業的那個李署長這新創產業怎麼去協助如果七年基本法通過之後你如果加大資源而不是以現有的架構現有資源去協助有基本法就代表說它是一個商會概念那你應該各部會要去落實對七年的協助跟照顧嘛所以我盤點也審查這個貴署預算我覺得還不夠而且南北分布不均"},{"start":252.874,"end":267.075,"text":"資源集中在北部南部的青年更需要協助包括你的新創的窗口新創的平台新創的資源國發基金各方面都不足不足之外還分配不均未來有沒有什麼改善的計畫"},{"start":269.229,"end":296.927,"text":"那個跟委員報告確實在整個的新創的這個聚落還有新創企業的推動當中我們也加強就照委員就是說目前要改善這個北南不均的一個情況但是在這裡面特別針對青年在這個新創的這個族群裡面哪些是重要的領域產業或者是樣態我們怎麼樣來進一步來協助青年這個我們也會來持續我們合理期待今年就通過青年基本法"},{"start":297.387,"end":317.91,"text":"先基本上下面各條的規定就是各部會要去對青年的相關的事務去籌備相關的預算然後執行嘛然後這部分你們就先應該先做預先做準備那法案通過之後你們是不是盤你現在對青年的相關經濟的協助經濟的預算創業預算是不是有不足之處你應該要"},{"start":318.851,"end":319.151,"text":"謝謝邱智偉議員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":807,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時27分）謝謝召委，謝謝主席，也請政務次長葉次長。"],["主席：請葉次長。"],["邱委員志偉：經濟部中小企業發展署李署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["邱委員志偉：時間寶貴，只有240秒。第一個問題，次長，這個院版會出來嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，我預計院版在這個會期會出來。"],["邱委員志偉：這個會期院版會出來？是送到立法院還是報院？"],["葉次長丙成：我們預計一個月內會報行政院。"],["邱委員志偉：行政院還要核定，核定之後還要送立法院。"],["葉次長丙成：對，再送立法院。"],["邱委員志偉：這個很重要的法案也不是只有一個委員提，跨黨派很多委員都有提，看過的內容裡面是林宜瑾的版本最好，我個人覺得方方面面、各方面他都有提到。對青年照顧是國家的責任，對青年照顧是一個會做事的政府應該放在施政的首要之一，所以我覺得你們這個版本出來，在委員會到現在還沒有……已經排出來要審、給你們壓力，希望院版能夠早點出來。所以你如果說在三個月之後才會進來，那這個會期就沒辦法審，越早通過越好。","就現有委員提案的版本裡面有幾條要提出來討論，特別是要有一個專責單位，就專責單位您的看法是怎麼樣？"],["葉次長丙成：在目前我們的草案內，專責單位就是教育部。"],["邱委員志偉：教育部的話，裡面有設什麼司嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：就是教育部擔任專責單位。"],["邱委員志偉：那執行單位呢？是跨部會？"],["葉次長丙成：就是青年發展署。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，關於你要有一定的預算規模，就是寬列青年事務的預算、專款專用，那你覺得這個預算規模大概是多少？"],["葉次長丙成：這個可能還要跨部會來計算，因為目前在各個部會有非常多照顧青年的計畫，目前的計畫規模是什麼，我想這個我們還是要再跟各部會來蒐集這方面的資訊再計算。"],["邱委員志偉：這個重要性比青年的概念真明確，不是抽象，青年需要政府、需要國家協助的事項上是更明確、更多，但各種條件、資源相對比較不足、比較弱勢，比起什麼所謂什麼壯世代，我都莫名其妙，你知道壯世代是什麼意思嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：55歲以上。"],["邱委員志偉：那你現在是壯世代嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：還不是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這個含糊不清的概念竟然成為一個法案，唉！滑天下之大稽！沒辦法，我們還是把最重要的青年基本法趕快通過。你應該已經有粗估未來如果青年基本法這個版本通過之後大概一年要編列多少預算來協助青年事務的發展？"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，這是一個基本法，所以我們不會把預算的金額列到這裡面來。"],["邱委員志偉：好，那我接著請教一下經濟部，經濟部在經濟委員會，請教中小企業發展李署長，有關新創產業，你們會怎麼樣去協助？如果青年基本法通過之後，你要如何加大資源而不是以現有的架構、現有資源去協助？有基本法就代表說它是一個上位概念，各部會就應該要去落實對青年的協助跟照顧，所以我盤點也審查了貴署預算，我覺得還不夠，而且南北分布不均，資源集中在北部，南部的青年更需要協助，包括你的新創的窗口、新創的平台、新創的資源、國發基金各方面都不足，不足之外還分配不均，未來有沒有什麼改善的計畫？"],["李署長冠志：跟委員報告，確實在整個新創的聚落、新創企業的推動當中，我們也有加強，就是說目前要改善北南不均的一個情況，但是在這裡面特別針對青年在新創的族群裡面，哪些是重要的領域、產業或者是樣態、我們怎麼樣來進一步來協助青年，這個我們也會來持續加強。"],["邱委員志偉：我們合理期待今年就會通過青年基本法，青年基本法下面各條的規定就是各部會要對青年相關的事務去籌備、執行相關的預算，這部分你們就應該預先做準備，法案通過之後，你們要盤點現在對青年相關經濟的協助、經濟的預算、創業預算是不是有不足之處，你應該要把它補足，充裕相關預算後才能有效地來協助青年在參與經濟發展的過中所需要的國家協助跟資源。好，謝謝。"],["李署長冠志：是的，我們全力來推動。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員。次長請回。","我們接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-2","speakers":["林宜瑾","黃捷","林楚茵","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","林德福","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","范雲","吳思瑤","邱志偉","陳培瑜","李坤城"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基\n本法草案」案；三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；四、審查委員吳思瑤等\n47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；六、\n審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法\n草案」案；八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；九、審查委員王美惠等17人\n擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十一、審\n查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十二、審查委員葛如鈞等19人擬具「青年基本\n法草案」案；十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十四、審查委員魯明哲\n等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；\n十六、審查委員葉元之等 20 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十七、審查委員林德福等 20 人擬具\n「青年發展基本法草案」案；十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案 (僅進行\n詢答)","agenda_id":"1142601_00009"}}},{"id":"159156","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159156","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f011fe345d5f6a7c22f58198bcf8270c186f8ffab8834d983f856b9dc284de10f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:21:49 - 12:29:31","影片長度":"00:07:42","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:21:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:29:31+08:00","duration":462,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.5072187500000003,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.9372187499999995,"end":6.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.754718750000002,"end":28.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.78409375,"end":14.610968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.640343750000003,"end":15.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.58346875,"end":45.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.62846875,"end":37.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.96471875,"end":53.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.929718750000006,"end":62.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.210968750000006,"end":66.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.329093750000006,"end":65.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.97409375000001,"end":79.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.52596875,"end":72.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.54284375,"end":72.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.55971875,"end":72.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.73159375,"end":80.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.04784375,"end":96.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.65284375,"end":98.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.47971875,"end":101.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.13721875,"end":145.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.44096875000001,"end":103.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.93221875,"end":147.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.77159375000002,"end":149.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.23971875,"end":162.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.97596875000002,"end":168.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.51096875000002,"end":169.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.63721875000002,"end":171.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.88159375,"end":172.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.91534375,"end":193.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.98284375,"end":173.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.14846875,"end":211.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.03596875000002,"end":228.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.36909375000002,"end":212.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.61659375000002,"end":221.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.78034375000001,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.55159375000002,"end":236.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.30221875,"end":256.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.80534375000002,"end":259.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.68221875,"end":273.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.81284375,"end":262.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.24721875,"end":263.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.03471875,"end":280.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.70096875,"end":276.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.96596875,"end":281.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.03346875,"end":281.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.25284375,"end":281.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.55659375,"end":281.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.16409375,"end":282.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.94034375,"end":282.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.97409375,"end":284.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.02471875000003,"end":284.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.93159375,"end":284.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.96534375000005,"end":289.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.21409375,"end":288.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.84659375,"end":289.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.48784375,"end":289.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.97721875,"end":296.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.55846875000003,"end":299.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.06846875,"end":303.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.19846875,"end":305.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.73846875000004,"end":327.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.64221875000004,"end":331.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.14784375000005,"end":332.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.72159375,"end":333.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.80159375,"end":335.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":335.65784375000004,"end":337.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.38346875,"end":340.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.77096875,"end":341.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.37846875,"end":343.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.42909375000005,"end":341.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":343.52159375,"end":344.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.96846875,"end":357.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.51659375,"end":349.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.74721875,"end":357.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.98346875000004,"end":359.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.03409375,"end":359.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.95784375,"end":361.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.10096875000005,"end":390.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.13034375,"end":393.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.58534375000005,"end":394.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.60221875,"end":398.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.61471875,"end":396.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.52159375,"end":398.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.33159375,"end":398.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.41596875000005,"end":398.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.61846875000003,"end":398.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":399.41159375,"end":399.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":400.08659375,"end":400.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.39034375,"end":400.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.04846875000004,"end":404.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.90846875000005,"end":409.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.03034375000004,"end":409.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.00034375,"end":421.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.77096875,"end":422.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.58096875,"end":438.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.93284375,"end":444.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.98346875000004,"end":439.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.87284375,"end":451.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.87221875,"end":448.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.18409375000005,"end":452.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.21784375000004,"end":451.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.15846875000005,"end":454.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.22596875000005,"end":453.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.37346875000003,"end":459.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.18284375,"end":459.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.23346875000004,"end":459.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.30096875000004,"end":459.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.97596875000005,"end":460.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.97159375,"end":461.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.34284375000004,"end":462.38909375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.07,"end":6.432,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請董次長次長有請次長好 大家也都很關心可能跟目前社區有越來越多的趨勢那我先請問一下現在這個全國你們有沒有統計過就是說有關這個社區來裝設這個充電樁的比例大概是多高"},{"start":29.865,"end":52.864,"text":"剛剛跟委員報告因為目前全台灣大概有4萬多的工藝大廈管理委員會我們即使是跟這些工藝大廈管理委員會去確認也都還沒有很清楚的答案所以目前我們會詳細再調查所以現在也不知道說有多少個社區有設這個充電樁完全不知道那它目前設充電樁的法源在哪裡"},{"start":53.955,"end":70.109,"text":"他設充電樁的法源他當然就是依據他那個相關的電業法的規範去設置還有工藝大廈管理條例的一些規章我們在108年的時候我們有規範我看各個縣市政府他們都是只有"},{"start":71.029,"end":96.047,"text":"一個指引一個指引嘛對不對那個指引應該是內政部給的指引嘛對不對所以在公寓大廈管理條例裡面其實都還沒有嘛對不對所以我們現在就是要把它法制化因為指引不夠嘛因為涉及到很多的問題剛才不管是講到保險的問題生命財產安全的問題這些都必須要法制化不是一個指引才能做的嘛對不對那請問一下那現在的問題是"},{"start":97.728,"end":122.739,"text":"在哪裡就是說你們這個指引到現在有多久的時間了因為其實關鍵點就在於說放在這個工藝大廈裡面它到底有什麼樣的消防顧慮那在建築的防火區劃裡面到底要怎麼定義清楚因為這個定義清楚以後它就會涉及到你後續要更改相關的設備它所必須要付出的成本"},{"start":123.419,"end":151.212,"text":"那這些成本計算出來也要讓這個管委會了解也就是說當我車子下去我要確保這整棟大樓的消防安全的時候那我應該大樓本身要承擔什麼樣的責任那這些責任會換算成成本也會換算成相關部會大家必須要來共同來探討就會像有保險的部分有消防設備的部分那哪一些是管委會要來負擔哪些是車主負擔"},{"start":151.812,"end":169.06,"text":"那甚至追溯到有沒有可能是原來進口的車商也要協助做一些負擔那這樣的話才有辦法把這一部分最後落到各個相關的法規去是這個意思好那所以我其實這樣聽起來其實你說要經過管委會的同意然後要設這個充電樁困難度還蠻高的"},{"start":172.978,"end":199.847,"text":"比如說如果要達到一定的消防安全的標準所以我們為什麼在之前也會鼓勵就是說做一些事情說他可以優先先在戶外的開放空間先設那讓住戶大樓比較習慣那樣子的一個操作那或許對他們要下去的話心中的疑慮會比較輕一點現在有沒有區分比如說現在已經就有社區他如果整個要去改什麼電線啊怎麼樣的那一定困難重重嘛"},{"start":200.347,"end":218.566,"text":"但是如果新的社區呢新的社區有沒有說你們有一些指引規章之類的就是說在新的社區我們在建造的時候那其實就可以符合你剛才所講的那些規範因為108年其實我們修法的時候那已經有通過就在108年"},{"start":219.947,"end":243.17,"text":"以後申請建造的那其實它有相關的管路設備管路都要預留所以108現在114了這個五六年的時間科技也一直在發展所以以前的108年的規範到現在還是適用嗎那個部分是沒有問題就是說那是預留管線空間避免它還要在設的時候很可能還要再做變更始造這樣的一個困擾"},{"start":243.891,"end":258.799,"text":"那至於就是說他單獨預留這個充電設備跟變壓系統那其實在台電那邊都已經有預先都有做好一些相關的規範如果你這個不要影響原有的這個那我請問一下那現在新的社區有在按照你們這個規範在走嗎"},{"start":260.868,"end":281.144,"text":"這個我們還沒有調查不過應該說法規上已經幫他們把路都開好了那所以實際上你們也不知道說有這個規章了那新的社區到底有多少的社區要蓋的時候是符合這個規定的你們也現在是一定要因為在建有基礎規則他已經把它講清楚了這是一定要所以現在新的社區"},{"start":282.225,"end":303.584,"text":"就一定會預留這個充電裝了嗎預留這個空間但是要不要做還是要管委會同意就對了那現在管委會你們現在我覺得最大問題就是管委會因為畢竟有這個電動車的人不多那你這麼多的這個祝福裡面你說要去同意我覺得基本上第一關就卡住了第一關是要管委會同意嗎"},{"start":305.782,"end":333.321,"text":"跟委員報告我想最主要的重點應該是這樣就是說剛剛我們署長已經說的說明非常清楚我們最重要的是安全啦安全的規範上面我們的SOP相關的指引都做得清楚之後其實我們把資訊明確化公開化我想管委會區權會在召開的時候他們就會覺得比較安全又保障這是所有的問題的關鍵我問一下現在管委會這個要同意的比例是多少三分之二"},{"start":333.88,"end":344.609,"text":"三分之二哇 這很難三分之二 對那你們有新的規定就是說如果要修法的話有把它降低嗎對 會把它降低降低到你們現在大概是降低到多少我們好像是五分之一嘛"},{"start":345.987,"end":362.794,"text":"我們現在目前的提案是有要把它降低那這因為在送院以後院就是審查完沒有說要推動所以我們的確是會降低會降低但是比例就是還要再還要再討論就對了因為這個問題今天當然是討論這個議題很好但是我看這個好像因為內政部這邊你們的這個條文也還沒有出來就變成說比較難去聚焦因為涉及到範圍是相當的多所以我看今天來的單位也很多"},{"start":375.68,"end":404.25,"text":"我就希望說就這個議題大家能夠再去討論一下不然你現在舊的社區你說要現有管理會要同意基本上是難如登天不過我再問一下就是現在社區跟你們現在戶外的比如說我們很多公有停車場也都設有這個充電樁那規範不一樣嗎公共的會在各個停車場是交通部嗎交通部這邊有訂定交通部已經有訂定我簡短主席不好意思我簡短問一下"},{"start":405.967,"end":409.366,"text":"那那個有關於這個我們譬如說我們這個公有停車場的部分"},{"start":412.025,"end":437.331,"text":"各位有沒有 基本上我們公共停車相關的一個設施的一個標準都是要符合電業法或相關系設施的一個標準來訂定的對啊 你這樣講我當然知道啦就是說現在因為新的這個 比如說規範嘛比如說因為電動車起火它可能要用跟我們一般的這個起火要去滅火的器具可能就不太一樣了啊這些都是有規範在內就對了"},{"start":439.291,"end":459.824,"text":"跟委員報告我們內政部會根據這些相關目前所會發生的狀況我們透過防火係數等等相關的參考我們會去制定新的SOP然後跟交通部一起討論包括在大廈的然後在那個法控跟公共空間我們都會各自有不同的規範好 所以這個有得討論謝謝 謝謝主席好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1075,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時21分）謝謝主席。請董次長。"],["主席：董次長有請。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：次長好。這個議題大家都很關心，這可能跟目前社區有越來越多這種趨勢。我想先請問一下，你們有沒有統計過，現在全國有裝設充電樁的社區比例大概是多高？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，因為目前全臺灣大概有四萬多個公寓大廈管理委員會，即使我們有跟這些公寓大廈管理委員會確認，也還是沒有一個很清楚的答案，所以目前我們會詳細調查。"],["李委員坤城：所以現在也不知道有多少個社區有裝設這個充電樁，完全不知道？目前裝設充電樁的法源在哪裡？"],["董次長建宏：裝設充電樁的法源當然就是依據電業法相關的規範去設置，還有公寓大廈管理條例的一些規章，我們在108年的時候有規範。"],["李委員坤城：我看各縣市政府都只有一個指引嘛！對不對？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["李委員坤城：那個指引應該是內政部給的指引嘛！對不對？所以在公寓大廈管理條例裡面其實都還沒有嘛！對不對？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以我們現在就是要把它法制化，因為指引不夠，這個涉及到很多的問題，剛才不管是講到的保險問題、生命財產安全的問題，這些都必須要法制化，這不是一個指引能夠做的嘛！對不對？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["李委員坤城：請問一下，現在問題在哪裡？這個指引到現在已經多久的時間了？"],["吳署長欣修：報告，其實關鍵點就在於放在公寓大廈裡面，它到底會有什麼樣的消防顧慮？在建築的防火區劃裡面，這個到底要怎麼定義清楚？因為這個定義清楚以後，它就會涉及到後續要更改的相關設備所必須要付出的成本。這些成本計算出來也要讓管委會瞭解，也就是當我的車子下去，我要確保這整棟大樓的消防安全時，大樓本身應該要承擔什麼樣的責任？這些責任會換算成成本，也會換算成相關部會大家必須要共同來探討，就像會有保險的部分、消防設備的部分，哪一些是管委會要負擔？哪一些是車主要負擔？甚至是追溯到有沒有可能是原來進口的車商也要協助做一些負擔？這樣子的話，才有辦法把這一部分落實到各個相關的法規裡，是這個意思。"],["李委員坤城：好，這樣聽起來，你說要經過管委會的同意才能夠設置這個充電樁，其實這個困難度還滿高，會不會？"],["吳署長欣修：如果要達到一定的消防安全標準，所以為什麼之前我們會做一些指引，鼓勵它可以優先的先在戶外的開放空間裝設，讓大樓的住戶可以習慣那樣子的操作，或許當他們要下去的時候，心中的疑慮就會輕一點。"],["李委員坤城：你們現在有沒有區分？比如現在舊有的社區，如果它要整個修改電線，那一定是困難重重嘛！但如果是新的社區呢？新的社區你們有沒有一些指引或是規章之類的？就是新的社區在建造的時候，其實就可以符合你剛才所講的那些規範。"],["吳署長欣修：對，報告，其實108年我們修法的時候就已經有通過，就是108年之後申請建照的，其實它就會有相關的管路設備，就是它要預留管線空間，也就是說，它要……"],["李委員坤城：可是那是108年，現在已經114年，五、六的時間，科技也一直在發展，所以以前108年的規範到現在都還是適用嗎？沒有要調整嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：那個部分沒有問題，那是預留管線空間，避免它要裝設的時候，可能還要再變更使照這樣的困擾。至於單獨預留充電設備及變壓系統，如果不要影響原有的電力設備，其實台電那邊已經預先做好一些相關的規範。"],["李委員坤城：請問一下，現在新的社區有按照你們這個規範進行嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：這個我們還沒有調查，不過應該是說法規上已經幫他們把路都開好了。"],["李委員坤城：所以你們也不知道實際的狀況，雖然已經有了這個規章，到底有多少社區在興建時是符合這個規定，你們也……"],["吳署長欣修：現在是一定要做，因為建築技術規則已經講清楚，這是一定要做的。"],["李委員坤城：所以現在新的社區一定會預留充電樁嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：對，預留這個空間，而不是預留……"],["李委員坤城：但是要不要做，還是要管委會同意？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["李委員坤城：我覺得現在最大的問題就是管委會，畢竟有電動車的人不多，想要讓這麼多的住戶同意，基本上在第一關就會卡住了，第一關是要經過管委會同意嗎？"],["董次長建宏：報告委員，最主要的重點，剛剛署長已經說明得非常清楚，最重要的就是安全。在安全的規範上，我們的SOP及相關指引都做清楚之後，並且將資訊明確化、公開化，召開管委會、區權會的時候，他們就會覺得比較安全、有保障，這是所有問題的關鍵。"],["李委員坤城：我問一下，現在管委會同意的比例是多少？"],["吳署長欣修：三分之二。"],["李委員坤城：三分之二？哇！這個很難！"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["李委員坤城：你們有新的規定，如果要修法會把它降低嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：對，會把它降低。"],["李委員坤城：現在大概是降低到多少？"],["吳署長欣修：目前我們的提案是要將它降低，因為送院以後，院審查完也沒有說要推動，所以我們的確是會降低。"],["李委員坤城：會降低，只是比例的部分還要再討論？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["李委員坤城：今天討論的這個議題很好，但是內政部的條文也還沒有出來，變成比較難以聚焦，因為涉及到的範圍相當多，而且今天來的單位也很多，我希望大家能就這個議題再討論一下，否則現在要舊社區的現有管委會同意，基本上是難如登天。再問一下，現在社區與戶外的，譬如許多的公有停車場也都設有充電樁，規範不一樣嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：公共的會在各個停車場……"],["李委員坤城：也是交通部嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：交通部這邊有訂定。"],["李委員坤城：交通部已經有訂定了？主席，不好意思！我簡短問一下，譬如公有停車場的部分呢？"],["黃司長運貴：報告委員，基本上，我們公有停車場的相關設置標準都是要符合電業法或相關設施的標準來訂定。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我當然知道。現在新的規範，譬如電動車起火時，要使用的滅火器具可能與一般的不太一樣，這些都有規範在內嗎？"],["董次長建宏：報告委員，內政部會根據目前發生的狀況，透過防火係數等等相關的參考，我們會制定新的SOP，也會再與交通部一起討論，包括在大廈、在法空及公共空間，我們都會有各自不同的規範。"],["李委員坤城：好，這個有得討論了！謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝李坤城委員。","下一位請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159155","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159155","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f444fddca9e4233222f58198bcf8270c186f8ffab8834d983d60d33a093d294555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"12:14:08 - 12:21:43","影片長度":"00:07:35","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:14:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:21:43+08:00","duration":455,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.047218750000001,"end":7.574093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.384093750000002,"end":9.531593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.459093750000001,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.64409375,"end":19.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.52159375,"end":30.574718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.148468750000003,"end":33.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.337843750000005,"end":37.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.20221875,"end":44.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.69909375,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.02784375,"end":60.257843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.595343750000005,"end":68.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.99909375,"end":70.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.73284375,"end":77.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.47034375,"end":79.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.91721875,"end":82.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.48221875,"end":86.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.98784375000001,"end":92.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.89409375000001,"end":95.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.35784375,"end":103.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.94784375,"end":101.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.87971875000001,"end":109.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.61721875,"end":110.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.12346875,"end":121.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.56596875000001,"end":113.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.63346875,"end":113.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.65034375,"end":116.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.13096875000001,"end":116.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.96971875000001,"end":123.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.30284375000001,"end":127.04909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.35346875,"end":124.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.58909375,"end":128.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.10784375,"end":130.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.72784375,"end":132.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.38159375,"end":138.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.49034375000002,"end":144.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.48096875000002,"end":146.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.72534375,"end":152.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.32784375,"end":162.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.63846875000002,"end":163.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.80284375000002,"end":170.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.80596875,"end":174.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.17659375000002,"end":177.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.02846875,"end":178.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.27721875,"end":194.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.02596875,"end":194.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.73471875,"end":200.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.48909375000002,"end":201.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.97409375,"end":207.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.42471875,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.02346875,"end":210.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.31034375000002,"end":210.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.42846875,"end":222.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.01721875,"end":225.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.34159375000002,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.80034375000002,"end":249.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.11846875,"end":251.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.98721875,"end":256.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.27346875,"end":262.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.50471875,"end":276.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.66909375,"end":263.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.68596875000003,"end":264.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.03846875,"end":279.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.08909375,"end":276.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":279.54846875000004,"end":286.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.59784375000004,"end":288.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.49221875,"end":292.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.22159375,"end":294.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":294.95534375,"end":296.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.03096875,"end":300.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.06409375000004,"end":307.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.64534375,"end":308.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.87721875,"end":314.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.46284375000005,"end":345.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.23846875000004,"end":354.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.01346875,"end":359.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.75534375,"end":363.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.15971875,"end":382.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.16096875000005,"end":397.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":395.68221875,"end":397.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.14596875,"end":407.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.34846875000005,"end":399.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.49471875,"end":414.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.88596875,"end":431.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.02284375000005,"end":449.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.90159375,"end":450.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.99409375000005,"end":454.96409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.073,"end":5.636,"text":"好謝謝張偉我們先請這個金管會我們陳副局長來陳副局長有請"},{"start":18.626,"end":22.348,"text":"保險是由個人來承擔還是由公寓大廈的整體管理人員來承擔?根文報告,事實上目前邀保人可以區分兩種,一個是個人的"},{"start":38.394,"end":67.413,"text":"就是整個所有全人那另外一個就是以那個社區管理委員會去做邀保人去做投保的那如果因為現在這樣我想我們的選區還是全台灣這個社區大樓最密集蓋最快的地區所以這個爭議不斷發生了就是說今天有一個新的車主他買了電動車那他搬進這個社區那假設他是新他是舊大樓他重新接管嘛那是要投保的問題那所以投保的時候是這個"},{"start":69.555,"end":91.57,"text":"車主他來負擔整棟大樓的公共保險呢還是由管委會同意之後由管委會的管理費來處理這個保險的問題那個跟委員報告那個其實剛剛很多委員有提到這個問題那當然如果是以那個1080以前的部分那不管怎麼樣一定要經過"},{"start":92.932,"end":121.13,"text":"那個社區管理委員會通過你才可以同意說到底要同意要不要設置充電樁嗎那如果假設同意了那這個部分到底投保的對象一定是以區分所有成員就是車主就是車主他的車子他是屬於充電他的車子被燒掉當然還有保險所以一定是以他去投保的那是以保費原則上當然就是車主啦"},{"start":122.165,"end":145.726,"text":"當然是車主當然要去那我們現在講的是公共安全因為副總你剛剛講的是說如果我確定一個前提108年之前比如說既有的這些社區大樓往往會如果通過區權會來同意說我的社區可以新增一個充電樁對不對那真的充電樁萬一發生事情那當然車主也有投保他針對他的充電樁針對他車子來投保那問題是如果因為"},{"start":146.767,"end":172.848,"text":"充電樁發生意外發生火災事故之後造成整體社區的損失的時候這件事情的責任是由這個它的保險責任是由當事這個車主來承擔呢還是因為國安委會同意了我裝設所以是由國安委會來承擔這件事情那個原則上以保險的部分本身如果說是因為這個充電樁是這個車主的那這個部分保險公司一定會啟動理賠責任"},{"start":175.222,"end":199.609,"text":"整棟大樓嗎?對,因為他要負責他如果有投保附加責任險的部分那當然他衍生出來責任這張保單會去負責但是通常保單他有一個責任限制啦看他是要買200萬或400萬這樣子所以車主沒有被限制說他一定要投保什麼樣的保險的額度吧對不對"},{"start":200.729,"end":225.362,"text":"這是由車主自己去選擇的除非說社區管理委員會他自己有規約有約定那不然應該是由車主自己去選擇對好我就要把這個釐清因為我們最近區選會都討論這個問題那所以今天如果管理委員會已經同意了我這問題在講的是如果我剛才同意了車主去設置所謂的充電樁那充電樁的車主他的確有為自己投保"},{"start":226.394,"end":251.585,"text":"那所以這個充電樁發生事故之後假設火災之後造成的是公共空間的損失的時候這個賠償責任是不是僅限於車主自己要去就賠償只賠償車主而已對於公共空間的損失是車主自己要想辦法或是保險要另外加保才能夠處理這個公共空間的損失還是說因為你外匯早就同意我了所以這個責任是大家的一份擔"},{"start":253.195,"end":276.549,"text":"那個跟委員報告這個責任歸屬的部分齁這個部分可能要請內政部他針對公益大廈管理條例他的規定去做解釋但是我剛剛跟委員報告是說從保險他如果本身有含責任險的部分那事實上責任保險公司如果他要負責他保險公司一定會去依法去付賠償責任的時間暫停一下我們請這個"},{"start":279.771,"end":307.321,"text":"內政部的副 政府次長董次跟這個消防署 蕭萬章署長董事長 蕭署長有請委員好好 次長跟署長謝謝就像我剛剛提到的問題這個責任歸屬如果今天是管會同意的嘛我讓你設的 但是又發生火災請問這個責任是我這個個人承擔還是整棟大樓大家的承擔所以我們目前在修法的時候我們就希望說這納入這個公共責任這樣子請那個署長好"},{"start":309.86,"end":328.338,"text":"其實這個就是因為關鍵就是車的電池通常不是在充電中是那個電池那電池本身是在這個車子裡面所以為什麼在這個金管會他會有提一個所謂的車體自然的這個附加保險也就是說你車主要去承擔這件事情"},{"start":329.179,"end":344.178,"text":"所以我們現在在做了這個相關的研究車主承擔燃燒的責任嘛燃燒完之後造成的損害誰承擔所以我們當時最早在提願的版本就有一個公共意外的責任險"},{"start":346.46,"end":370.152,"text":"這件事情就是會後續會跟相關部會去討論公共意外責任險是要在車主本身還是在管委會本身那如果放在管委會本身他跟管委會本身投保的我是要用差價由車主負擔還是要這個差價由管委會吸收這就是後續要跟相關部會要去定義去討論"},{"start":371.152,"end":396.013,"text":"因為不會只有車體的自然險而已它還有公共意外險所以這一個部分就是我們再把相關的SOP定完以後要跟各部會繼續討論也包含我們有一些像防火毯防火毯是要由車主自購或車商的標配或是要管委會來購買因為這都計算在成本所以我們把SOP定義出來以後我們後續還要跟各部會去協調這些事情你們這個什麼時候會開公定會"},{"start":398.368,"end":414.018,"text":"我們會先就技術的部分先內部先討論完那也會跟相關部會去討論這些部分最後還會跟院來呈報因為組長這個東西是這樣這是涉及到每一棟大樓的狀況都不一樣那每一個設計大樓都承載著可能"},{"start":415.078,"end":440.853,"text":"幾百戶或幾十戶的住戶的權益啊所以這個法令公共出來如果事前沒有好好的溝通因為就像我提到的剛剛提到公共意外責任險到底是車主要承擔還是說管委會承擔這就會到管委會到去全會的時候就會吵翻天樓所以這部分我要問問你們管委會就是我們就要定義出來就是你本身管委會投保的險要不要附加一個那這個是由車主去承擔那或許對車主就會比較輕"},{"start":442.315,"end":454.797,"text":"那所以這就是可以到時候也會邀金管會都一起來討論用什麼方式來定義這個會比較好好 謝謝署長謝謝市長好 謝謝黃建豪委員下一位我們請李昆成委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1037,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（12時14分）好，謝謝召委。我們先請金管會陳副局長。"],["主席：來，陳副局長，有請。"],["陳副局長清源：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：副局長好。首先，我還是要就教剛剛楊瓊瓔委員提到的保險這部分，這個保險是由個人來承擔？還是要由公寓大廈整體的管委會來承擔？"],["陳副局長清源：跟委員報告，事實上，目前要保人可以區分成兩種，一個是個人的，就是車輛所有權人。"],["黃委員健豪：對，那臺車嘛！"],["陳副局長清源：另一個是以社區管理委員會去做要保人投保的。"],["黃委員健豪：因為我的選區應該是全臺灣社區大樓最密集、蓋得最快的地區，所以這個爭議也不斷的發生。今天有一個車主新買了電動車，然後他搬進這個社區，假設它是舊大樓重新接管，那今天就有投保的問題，投保的時候，是由這個車主來負擔整棟大樓的公共保險，還是由管委會同意之後，由管委會的管理費來處理這個保險問題？"],["陳副局長清源：跟委員報告，其實剛剛有很多的委員提到這個問題，如果是108年以前的部分，不管怎麼樣，它都一定要經過社區管理委員會通過，你才可以設置充電樁。假設他們同意了，這個部分投保的對象一定是區分所有權人，也就是車主，因為他的車子是電動車。"],["黃委員健豪：他的車子燒掉了，當然他要有保險，這個我知道。"],["陳副局長清源：所以一定是由他去投保。至於保費，原則上當然就是車主要去負擔。"],["黃委員健豪：我們現在講的是公共安全，副局長，我先確定一個前提，108年之前既有的這些社區大樓，如果管委會通過區權會來同意我的社區可以新增一個充電樁，萬一這個充電樁發生事情，當然車主有針對他的充電樁和車子投保，問題是，如果因為充電樁發生意外、發生火災事故而造成整體社區有所損失的時候，這個保險責任是由車主來承擔，還是因為是管委會同意裝設，所以是由管委會來承擔這件事情？"],["陳副局長清源：原則上，保險的部分，本身如果是因為這個充電樁是這個車主的，那麼這個部分保險公司一定會啟動理賠責任。"],["黃委員健豪：整棟大樓嗎？"],["陳副局長清源：對，因為他要負責，如果他有投保附加責任險，當然他衍生出來的責任，這張保單就會去負責。但是保單通常會有一個責任限制，看他是要買200萬元或是400萬元這樣子。"],["黃委員健豪：對啊！所以車主並沒有被限制他一定要投保什麼樣的保險額度，對不對？"],["陳副局長清源：這是由車主自己去選擇的，除非社區管理委員會自己有規約、規定，不然應該是由車主自己去選擇。"],["黃委員健豪：好，我就是要釐清這個問題，因為最近區權會都在討論這個問題。這個問題我再講一次，如果今天管委會同意車主設置所謂的充電樁，充電樁的車主的確也有為自己投保，所以當這個充電樁發生事故之後，假設是發生火災之後，造成公共空間有所損失的時候，這個賠償是不是僅限於賠償車主而已？對於公共空間的損失，是車主要自己想辦法或是要另外加保才能夠處理公共空間的損失？還是因為管委會早就同意了，所以這個責任要大家一起分擔？"],["陳副局長清源：跟委員報告，有關責任歸屬的部分，這個部分可能要請內政部針對公寓大廈管理條例的規定去解釋。"],["黃委員健豪：好。"],["陳副局長清源：但是我剛剛跟委員報告的是從保險，如果它本來就有含責任險，事實上，責任包含公私，如果他要負責，那保險公司一定會依法負賠償責任。"],["黃委員健豪：好，副局長謝謝。時間暫停一下，我們請內政部政務次長、董次，跟消防署蕭煥章署長。"],["主席：董次長和蕭署長有請。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：好，次長跟署長，謝謝。就像我剛才提到的責任歸屬這個問題，如果今天管委會同意讓我設置，結果發生火災，請問這個責任是我個人要承擔？還是整棟大樓大家一起承擔？"],["董次長建宏：目前我們在修法的時候，我們是希望能夠納入公共責任險。請署長說明。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為關鍵是車的電池，通常問題不是那個充電樁，而是那個電池，而電池本身又是安裝在車子裡面，所以為什麼金管會會提出所謂的車體自燃附加保險？也就是說，車主要承擔這件事情，所以我們現在在做的相關研究就是……"],["黃委員健豪：署長，車主承擔燃燒的責任嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["黃委員健豪：那燃燒後完後造成的損害由誰承擔？"],["吳署長欣修：我們最早提院的版本就有一個公共意外責任險，這件事情後續會跟相關部會討論，公共意外責任險是要在車主本身，還是管委會本身？如果放在管委會本身，它跟管委會本身投保的，差價是由車主負擔，還是由管委會吸收？這個就是後續我們要跟相關部會定義和討論的。因為這不會只有車體的自燃險而已，它還有公共意外險，所以這個部分在我們訂定完相關的SOP後，我們要跟各部會繼續討論的，也包含一些。像防火毯，防火毯是要由車主自購？或是車商的標配？或是要由管委會來購買？因為這些都會計算在成本內，所以我們把SOP定義出來以後，後續我們還要跟各部會去協調這些事情。"],["黃委員健豪：這個你們什麼時候會開公聽會啊？會開公聽會嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：我們內部會先就技術的部分討論，之後我們也會跟相關部會討論這些部分，最後還會跟院內呈報。"],["黃委員健豪：署長，這個東西是這樣，這個涉及到每一棟大樓的狀況都不一樣，每一個社區大樓都承載著幾百戶或幾十戶的住戶權益，如果這個法令公布出來，但事前卻沒有好好的溝通，因為就像你剛剛提到的公共意外責任險，到底是車主要承擔？還是說管委會要承擔？這個到區權會的時候就會吵翻天了，所以這個部分管委會……"],["吳署長欣修：對，所以我才說，如果是管委會，那我們就要定義出來，就是管委會本身投保的保險要不要附加一個，這個要由車主去承擔，或許這對車主的負擔就會比較輕。這個到時候也會邀請金管會一起來討論，看要用什麼方式來定義這個會比較好。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝署長和次長。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員。","下一位請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159154","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159154","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f532ceaf28d7ce5532f58198bcf8270c186f8ffab8834d9838a3474509b675d045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:05:02 - 12:14:02","影片長度":"00:09:00","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:05:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:14:02+08:00","duration":540,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.84909375,"end":4.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.58284375,"end":6.207218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.910968750000002,"end":12.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.754718750000002,"end":20.449718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.94034375,"end":13.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.51409375,"end":13.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.353468750000001,"end":15.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.85471875,"end":36.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.970343750000005,"end":49.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.048468750000005,"end":58.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.970968750000004,"end":60.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.915968750000005,"end":65.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.06284375,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.75096875,"end":90.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.00409375000001,"end":111.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.20784375000001,"end":115.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.13096875000001,"end":124.93971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.55159375000001,"end":129.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.90971875000001,"end":128.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.46221875,"end":132.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.71909375,"end":133.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.23784375,"end":135.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.04346875000002,"end":141.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.91596875000002,"end":143.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.85659375,"end":146.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.13034375,"end":148.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.71659375000002,"end":155.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.51284375,"end":158.72346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.06096875,"end":164.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.00096875,"end":169.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.14784375000002,"end":172.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.57784375,"end":174.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.72096875,"end":174.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.99096875,"end":188.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.82846875,"end":192.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.33846875,"end":221.51534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.83596875,"end":244.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.78596875000002,"end":252.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.20659375000002,"end":259.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":253.27409375000002,"end":253.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.82159375000003,"end":262.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.35284375000003,"end":263.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.09534375000004,"end":267.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.53346875,"end":271.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.51596875,"end":280.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.03784375000004,"end":286.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.70346875,"end":290.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.46221875000003,"end":300.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.50721875,"end":315.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.23471875,"end":323.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.91284375000004,"end":326.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.71409375,"end":328.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.03034375000004,"end":340.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.86784375,"end":342.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":343.08284375,"end":344.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.97284375000004,"end":347.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":347.65596875,"end":352.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":352.97159375,"end":353.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":354.42284375,"end":354.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.16534375000003,"end":365.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.83909375,"end":368.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.37409375000004,"end":370.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":370.67346875000004,"end":371.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.49596875000003,"end":374.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.55471875,"end":376.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.46159375,"end":377.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.38971875000004,"end":379.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":379.70159375000003,"end":381.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.84471875,"end":385.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.60784375000003,"end":397.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":397.35284375000003,"end":403.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":403.68096875000003,"end":406.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":406.26284375,"end":408.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":409.33409375,"end":411.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.23659375000005,"end":412.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.89471875000004,"end":413.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.02971875000003,"end":417.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.32846875,"end":420.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.34909375,"end":429.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":428.85846875000004,"end":429.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.21284375000005,"end":429.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.55034375,"end":429.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.60096875000005,"end":429.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.92159375,"end":433.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.52909375,"end":436.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.13159375000004,"end":440.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.11409375000005,"end":441.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.81846875,"end":444.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.03721875,"end":451.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.18409375000005,"end":455.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.14534375000005,"end":460.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":459.58784375000005,"end":461.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.03909375,"end":461.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":462.03471875,"end":465.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":465.78096875000006,"end":468.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":468.58221875000004,"end":470.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.25284375,"end":470.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":470.53971875,"end":471.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":471.80534375,"end":472.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":473.08784375000005,"end":476.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":477.12096875000003,"end":479.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":479.83784375000005,"end":483.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.12846875,"end":488.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.89971875000003,"end":507.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":505.45409375,"end":531.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.11596875000004,"end":509.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.13284375,"end":509.58846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.58846875000006,"end":509.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.5034687500001,"end":513.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.3547187500001,"end":520.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.39096875,"end":532.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.55096875,"end":539.96346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.303,"end":5.936,"text":"謝謝主席 邀請市長董事長有請"},{"start":12.083,"end":24.507,"text":"市長我們針對於今天的議題 供大家設置充電樁成為大家非常關心的一個重要議題那你在2019年5月29號修正建築技術規則建築設計施工篇那又規定在2019年的7月1號起開始來做申請的這個事項"},{"start":37.211,"end":58.528,"text":"所以本席要請教針對於公寓大廈管理條例安裝充電設備需經過管委會或者是區分所有權人會議同意但是你也看到你也了解到現在目前部分的社區因為少數住戶反對導致目前安裝為了面臨住戶的權利跟管委會的一個審核讓他們去衝突"},{"start":66.567,"end":88.544,"text":"你頻頻的點頭也代表著你認為這個問題在政府規劃出的一個配套根本沒有完善所以本需要首先請教針對於你具體的對策還有你充電的設施你要怎麼樣去協助他們能夠區分所有權人以及住戶他們能夠達到有共識呢"},{"start":90.916,"end":92.557,"text":"那你什麼時候要完善你現在所說的呢現在已經造成了很多的糾紛"},{"start":116.418,"end":125.487,"text":"對 我們的法規 消防法規的部分我們目前已經有部分已經公佈了有部分我們現在正在研擬當中那麼我們會在三個月內之內將這些法規都處理完三個月內將這些法規來研擬清楚好 這第一個第二個本事要請教電力負載的這個問題"},{"start":134.295,"end":155.532,"text":"因為現在大家針對於電動車它是普及淨零碳排的一個原理會越來越多人接受這樣的一個方式所以本席要請教我們請台電也一併上來本席要請教實務上許多的社區電力設備老舊變壓器的容量根本不足"},{"start":156.607,"end":163.983,"text":"所以導致自然難行郭總他是專家他是非常專業的所以我請教郭總工程師"},{"start":165.046,"end":180.154,"text":"目前我們全國有多少社區因為電力負載問題而被拒絕來申請有莫端在你那裡請教目前大概一般的用戶來申請我們都會同意至於說有輸電網有些困難的部分我們會等到輸電網擴建完畢就會同意"},{"start":189.139,"end":205.334,"text":"你委婉的這麼說 我們次長在這邊也就是老舊的部分的確他的電網沒有辦法如此老舊的部分沒有辦法如此去應對當然申請台電必須要受理但是完成率偏低"},{"start":205.914,"end":220.813,"text":"原因剛才說的很清楚他的電網負載根本沒有辦法所以導致目前的這個狀況也就是他對於穩定性造成他因為是一個高功率的一個頻率所以他根本沒有辦法負載"},{"start":221.914,"end":243.964,"text":"那我們在制定這樣子的一個政策的時候我們這一方面到底你要怎麼樣去考量尤其如果大家集中統一時間的時候那這個壓力會更大會更大也就是集中在特定時間共同一起來使用的時候那這個壓力更大所以本期要請教郭總"},{"start":244.904,"end":271.048,"text":"台電目前對於我們整個社區內部電力擴充的資源措施你們又怎麼樣建議給我們內政部跟委員報告說我們期待這個大樓如果設置充電裝的話可以由管委會統一申請一個專用的戶然後配合EMS我們有專用的充電的一個設備然後加上一個專用的"},{"start":272.469,"end":290.36,"text":"這個電費的費率等等那加上EMS我想這個部分對社區的公共安全或是對整個電網都有很大的幫忙現在郭總所提出的解決方案到目前為止還是很多的自愛難行你叫他統一一個電表他累計電費當然他不同意"},{"start":291.616,"end":313.428,"text":"當然他不同意我管委會每個人的付出會更多所以在這樣的情況之下我還是希望本席希望內政部你這邊必須要去整合相關的單位必須要去整合相關的單位讓我們的民眾可以有所依歸而且做得來而不是一個政策丟下去讓我們這麼的無所適從"},{"start":316.669,"end":340.23,"text":"是謝謝委員的指教剛才所談的有關於電容的部分跟電表的部分我們也會在公益大廈管理條例一併討論一併討論那你們多久時間會討論出來我們剛才談到三個月內也是在這個三個月內所以請大家先不要緊張因為處處是困難三個月內我們等你那接下來我要請教一個金管會保險司今天陳副也在這邊"},{"start":342.129,"end":352.175,"text":"現在 市長 你聽喔電動車的充電線 它是保誰它是保它個人的那一台車 是不是啊那個 那個"},{"start":355.552,"end":378.646,"text":"跟委員報告那個充電樁保險的部分基本上就是說他保障被保險人就是保障他那輛車沒錯保障他那輛車嘛所以市長你再注意聽本席提出喔也就是他有自己保險社區開始會要求這樣的車輛你要自己保險但是還是會有人有意見"},{"start":379.755,"end":396.771,"text":"因為很多的社區它呢萬一發生事情是大家都會危害到所以在整個保險方面我們要面面俱到是不是有空間去提出更完善的社區電動車充電風險保險讓我們的這個管委會住戶他都能夠獲得到合理的一個保障"},{"start":403.738,"end":420.247,"text":"要不然你目前只有保胎那一台車那我旁邊波及到的人我怎麼辦啊當然大家不願意啊市長你跟委員報告一下就是說如果是屬於專有部分專有就是個人那個"},{"start":421.668,"end":443.886,"text":"車主他自己專屬車位的部分是屬於他專屬權的部分當然是因為他的車子他後面有充電樁依照你的契約而走嘛就是他本人嘛那如果發生事故可以保障他車子的財產損失那如果因為發生火災可能會波及其他車輛對不對也可以獲得理賠但是如果是在整個管理委員會"},{"start":446.109,"end":469.697,"text":"那個屬於公共共有的部分那這個部分如果說有這樣的一個部分是可以那個大義公益大廈管理委員會的那個管理委員會去做一個搖保人去做投保人這個是兩碼事嘛所以市長光我們一個政策下去保險在我們工領域到底要怎麼處理你們必須要去盤點讓我們區分"},{"start":473.358,"end":493.831,"text":"會呢他也能夠放心的來做服務跟管理讓我們的住戶也都能夠安心啊這個是必須要各方面面面俱到的跟委員報告我們在公益大廈管理條例的修正草案裡面我們希望能夠提出說包括設置前的那個用電評估安全評估包括說投保公共意外責任線"},{"start":494.651,"end":507.022,"text":"那包括降低那個臨時區分選會的召開的門檻然後我們也增訂罰則等等這些我們都會在未來進一步的加速來討論就是說剛才委員所關切的其實就是所以我們點出了問題你們也在研議因為民眾的目前的生活已經蠻辛苦了是"},{"start":514.288,"end":531.844,"text":"所以要怎麼樣協助民眾在安全的範圍內能夠得到保障這個是他們務必要讓他們放心的所以我也希望您剛才所說的時間點能夠去提出我們繼續好好的討論好 謝謝委員 謝謝委員指教好 謝謝楊瓊英委員因為現在時間到了中午 當然我們就一鼓作氣吧所以我們今天中午不休息 我們繼續開會"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1001,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時5分）謝謝主席，邀請次長。"],["主席：董次長有請。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，針對今天的議題，公寓大廈設置充電樁成為大家非常關心的一個重要議題，內政部在2019年5月29日修正建築技術規則建築設計施工編，規定自2019年7月1日起開始來做申請的事項，所以本席要請教，依公寓大廈管理條例，安裝充電設備需經過管委會或者是區分所有權人會議同意，但是你也看到，你也瞭解到，現在部分的社區因為少數住戶反對，導致目前為了安裝、住的權利和管委會的審核，讓他們產生衝擊。你頻頻點頭，這代表你也認為這個問題，政府規劃的配套根本沒有完善，所以本席首先要請教，針對你具體的對策和充電的設施，你要怎麼樣協助區分所有權人和住戶，讓他們能夠達到共識呢？"],["董次長建宏：好，謝謝委員的垂詢。我想剛剛特別是召委也都有垂詢到，我們最主要的重點是要先完善法令裡面有關安全的部分，因為對許多人來講，他們之所以不同意是因為安全的部分，所以我們的消防安全、消防區劃等等，我們都在進行，許多的法規已經公布或修正了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們什麼時候要完善你現在所說的呢？現在已經造成很多的糾紛。"],["董次長建宏：對，我們的法規，就是消防法規，目前有部分已經公布了，有部分我們現在正在研擬當中，我們會在3個月內將這些法規都處理完畢。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：3個月內將這些法規研擬清楚？"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，這是第一個。第二個本席要請教「電力負載」這個問題，因為現在電動車很普及，還有淨零碳排這個原理，所以會有越來越多人接受這樣的方式，所以本席要請教，請台電也一併上來。本席要請教，實務上，許多的社區電力設備老舊，變壓器的容量根本不足，所以導致窒礙難行，郭總是專家，他非常的專業，所以我要請教郭總工程師，目前全國有多少個社區因為電力負載的問題而被拒絕申請？因為末端在你那裡，請教。"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：是，目前一般的用戶來申請，我們都會同意。至於輸電網有困難的部分，我們會等輸電網擴建完畢後就同意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你委婉的這麼說，次長在這邊，也就是老舊的部分，的確它的電網沒有辦法如此去應對。當然有申請，台電就必須要受理，但是完成率偏低，原因剛剛已經說得很清楚，因為它的電網根本沒有辦法負載，所以才會導致目前這個狀況。也就是，它會對穩定性造成影響，因為它是高功率的頻率，所以它根本沒有辦法負載，我們在制定這樣一個政策時，這方面到底要怎麼樣去考量？尤其是如果大家都集中在同一個時間使用時，這個壓力會更大。也就是集中在特定時間共同一起來使用的時候，這個壓力更大，所以本席要請教郭總，目前台電對於社區內部電力擴充的資源措施，你們有怎麼樣建議內政部？"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：跟委員報告，我們期待大樓設置充電樁的時候，可以由管委會統一申請一個專用戶，然後配合EMS，等於是有專用的充電設備，然後再加上專用的電費費率等等，再加上EMS，我想這個部分對社區的公共安全或是整個電網都會有很大的幫忙。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在郭總所提出的解決方案，到目前為止還是有很多的窒礙難行，你叫它統一一個電表，那會累積電費，所以它當然不同意，管委會裡的每一個人要付出得更多。在這樣的情況下，本席還是希望內政部必須要整合相關的單位，讓我們的民眾可以有所依歸，而且做得來，而不是一個政策丟下去，讓我們這麼的無所適從。"],["董次長建宏：是，謝謝委員的指教，剛才所談的，就是有關電容和電表的部分，我們也會在公寓大廈管理條例裡面一併討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一併討論？那你們多久時間會討論出來？"],["董次長建宏：我們剛剛談到，3個月內。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也是3個月內，所以請大家先不要緊張，因為處處是困難。3個月內，我們等你。","接下來我要請教一個，金管會保險局陳副今天也在這邊。次長，你聽哦！現在電動車的充電險是保誰？它是保他個人的那臺車，是不是？保險局？"],["陳副局長清源：跟委員報告，充電樁保險的部分，基本上，它保障被保險人，就是他那輛車沒有錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：保障他那輛車嘛！"],["陳副局長清源：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以次長，你再注意聽本席提出來的，也就是他要有自己的保險，社區也開始要求這樣子的車輛要自己投保，但是還是會有人有意見，因為很多社區萬一發生事情，大家都會受到危害，所以在保險這方面，我們要面面俱到。是不是有空間提出更完善的社區電動車充電風險保險，讓我們的管委會和住戶都能夠獲得合理的保障？要不然目前只有保他那臺車，旁邊被波及到的人要怎麼辦？當然大家不願意啊！"],["陳副局長清源：我跟委員報告一下，如果是屬於專有的部分，就是車主自己專屬車位，就是屬於他專屬權的部分，當然，這是因為他的車子後面有充電樁……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，依照你的契約而走，就是他本人嘛！對，那臺車啊！"],["陳副局長清源：對，沒錯，如果發生事故可以保障他車子的財產損失，但是發生火災可能會波及其他的車輛，對不對？那也可以獲得理賠。但是如果是在整個管理委員會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！"],["陳副局長清源：那個屬於公共、共用的部分，如果這個部分有這樣的情形，可以由公寓大廈管理委員會去做要保人、投保人。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是兩碼事嘛！"],["陳副局長清源：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，我們光是一個政策下去，公領域到底要怎麼處理保險這部分？你們必須要去盤點，要讓區分會能夠放心的來做服務跟管理，讓我們的住戶也都能夠安心啊！這個必須要各方面面面俱到啊！請說明。"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，我們在公寓大廈管理條例的修正草案裡面，我們是希望能夠提出、包括設置前的用電評估、安全評估；包括投保公共意外責任險；包括降低臨時區分權會的召開門檻；然後我們也增訂罰則等等，這些未來我們都會繼續進一步加速的來討論。剛剛委員所關切的，其實就是公共責任險的部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們點出了問題，你們也在研議，因為目前民眾的生活已經滿辛苦了，所以要怎麼樣協助民眾在安全的範圍內能夠得到保障？這個務必要讓他們放心，所以我也希望你能夠在剛剛所說的時間點內提出，我們再繼續好好的來討論，謝謝。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員！謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。因為現在時間已經到了中午，我們就一鼓作氣，所以今天中午不休息，我們繼續開會。","接下來請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159153","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159153","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f1f948baee1af93ba2f58198bcf8270c186f8ffab8834d9833309862b0372d3b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:57:30 - 12:04:56","影片長度":"00:07:26","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:57:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:04:56+08:00","duration":446,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.9590937500000001,"end":2.5959687500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.430343750000002,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.876593750000001,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.91346875,"end":23.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.18721875,"end":26.204093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.204093750000002,"end":26.828468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.296593750000003,"end":30.355343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.33409375,"end":32.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.78534375,"end":33.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.696593750000005,"end":33.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.713468750000004,"end":34.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.99596875,"end":36.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.53159375,"end":37.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.52284375,"end":48.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.59284375,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.45034375,"end":80.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.92971875,"end":82.14471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.22909375,"end":83.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.57471875,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.91221875000001,"end":85.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.80659375,"end":94.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.29471875,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.31159375,"end":94.98659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.69096875000001,"end":109.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.83659375,"end":112.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.19909375,"end":115.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.31659375000001,"end":117.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.98721875000001,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.90659375000001,"end":122.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.03284375000001,"end":123.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.59784375000001,"end":127.45409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.45409375000001,"end":127.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.97284375,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.02346875,"end":130.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.66471875000002,"end":130.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.20034375,"end":141.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.94971875000002,"end":150.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.48846875,"end":160.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.47846875000002,"end":161.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.27159375000002,"end":162.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.92534375,"end":165.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.31721875000002,"end":174.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.68721875,"end":176.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.11721875,"end":181.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.99409375000002,"end":186.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.38159375,"end":188.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.49909375000001,"end":191.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.00096875,"end":197.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.62034375000002,"end":199.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.35846875000001,"end":202.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.53096875,"end":202.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.98659375000003,"end":207.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.45409375000003,"end":208.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.82534375,"end":209.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.31471875000003,"end":210.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.31034375000002,"end":211.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.01471875000001,"end":215.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.60471875000002,"end":220.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.12721875000003,"end":223.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.03409375,"end":223.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.72596875000002,"end":224.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.07596875000002,"end":226.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.37534375,"end":228.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.26971875,"end":230.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.32846875,"end":230.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.23534375000003,"end":231.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.19721875000002,"end":247.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.48596875,"end":249.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.98346875000001,"end":250.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.23659375000003,"end":251.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.12659375,"end":254.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.34971875000002,"end":255.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.77159375000002,"end":263.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.15846875,"end":266.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.41971875,"end":267.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.17471875,"end":269.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.54159375,"end":276.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.59534375000004,"end":278.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.21096875,"end":280.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.27409375,"end":281.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.59034375000005,"end":282.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.34534375000004,"end":291.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.81659375000004,"end":292.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.01909375,"end":292.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.03596875,"end":292.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.20034375,"end":299.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.57909375,"end":300.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.67596875000004,"end":301.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.40159375,"end":309.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.56909375000004,"end":316.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.28096875,"end":319.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.91346875,"end":323.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.65971875,"end":324.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.46534375000005,"end":329.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.44784375,"end":330.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.38409375000003,"end":332.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.50221875,"end":332.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.89034375,"end":334.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.74659375000005,"end":334.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.30346875000004,"end":342.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.44596875,"end":368.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.08721875000003,"end":384.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.19596875,"end":375.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.96659375,"end":396.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.20534375,"end":397.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.79159375,"end":398.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.73659375000005,"end":406.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.63409375000003,"end":406.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":406.65096875,"end":407.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.22471875,"end":424.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.12909375000004,"end":435.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.32159375000003,"end":437.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.68409375000005,"end":438.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.78096875000006,"end":439.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":440.08034375000005,"end":441.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.43034375,"end":441.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.44659375000003,"end":445.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.81784375,"end":446.44221875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.13,"end":2.111,"text":"現在我們請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":16.022,"end":29.925,"text":"主席 在場委員先進列席的政府計劃署長 官員 會長 工作夥伴記者媒體女士先生有請內政部的董事長那另外多一點我們建築研究所的王所長能源署的吳副署長還有台電的郭總工程師"},{"start":31.8,"end":48.65,"text":"好 請各位置備訓台好 委員好好 那麼次長 各位相關主管長官我這邊呢 要問建築內充電樁法規要競速完善電動車那虛擬電廠要超前部署但在這個問題之前 我們看一下今天的題目前面問很多了 我們看第一頁"},{"start":49.651,"end":69.665,"text":"首先電動車充電充滿爭議其實就是安全顧慮跟消費糾紛目前的公寓大樓其實蓋在這幾年以前的比比皆是多數的用戶他的停車並沒有使用電動車但是看到了失火的新聞充電樁起火的新聞住戶擔心他的安全"},{"start":70.509,"end":82.595,"text":"但是要買房子的人呢他如果有電動車他希望買到的車位有充電樁那請問到目前為止次長就你綜合上五個位委員的詢問那你認為關鍵要從哪裡去解決"},{"start":84.585,"end":109.018,"text":"好 感謝委員垂詢那委員這張圖講得非常清楚其實我想最關鍵的議題還是在於就是說災害的防治的問題沒有 我認為是法規的問題法規呢 我就會告訴你本來這個預售屋的這些記名仔的事項呢當然是國土署他們在處理的但是我們看看這個第二頁公寓大樓管理條例裡面寫的設置管線"},{"start":110.038,"end":121.465,"text":"這第六條 住戶要遵守 對不對但是呢 同樣的拆除呢 也要如果官媒不同意 你現在就動彈不得在現有的建築要處理充電樁要動這個條例 市長您看呢如果你不動這個條例 你要怎麼去處理"},{"start":129.678,"end":151.733,"text":"現有的大樓啊現有的大樓原則上我們還是以那個安全為主現在將安全的相關的規範做好之後我想我們就會去輔導各個管委會進行相關輔導沒有辦法強制嘛大家不同意就不行嘛跟委員報告因為我想大家最主要是安全上有疑慮嘛所以我們剛才也包括召委也提到說資訊的充分溝通是很重要的那只是一個假設啦"},{"start":152.474,"end":161.934,"text":"好 來我想這個是法規你們要去研議第二個問題談到這個法規接下來要請台電跟我們的建築管理研究所的所長"},{"start":163.001,"end":188.508,"text":"其實我個人過去啊 從小在屏東長大只要颱風 難保不會積水 一積水 地下是灌水整個大樓 後來的大樓 它的配電是進水了台電要怎麼辦 第一 水要抽乾第二 配電是要電線都烘乾 然後才能開始進行附電只要有一棟大樓在你們的迴路當中 沒有辦法到這個程度整個迴路的用電都沒有辦法附電 是不是這樣"},{"start":190.563,"end":207.619,"text":"是委員講的對是好那現在問題來了有沒有規定新建的大樓配電是不得設於地面以下有沒有規定你們的營業規則有沒有規定這個是規定在建築你們營業規則也有寫你們要送電你要申請用電你必須配電是要在地面層以上有沒有例外"},{"start":208.467,"end":228.532,"text":"有 切解嘛是 來 所長我剛剛問了總工程師他說建築法規如果規定是強制什麼樣規格以上的建築物它的配件是必須設在地面層以上建築法規規定了 台電絕對遵辦建築法規有沒有這個規定目前確實沒有限制有規定啦原則啦你們是寫原則啦所以"},{"start":232.333,"end":253.864,"text":"社長來接下來請你了你要去督導今天不是只有電動車充電狀的問題整個未來的工業集合大樓它的供電系統它需要做整個法規的研修可不可以承諾相關的法規邀請建築研究所台電公司做一個配套的整個的翻修可以嗎可以好可以來接下來請我們來看看有沒有聽過斑斑有冷氣"},{"start":255.407,"end":282.007,"text":"有 斑斑用冷氣後面的一個潛台詞叫做校校發電廠為什麼因為斑斑用冷氣它要裝一個EMS的能源管理系統這個時候它不只能夠供應日光燈的用電可以供應冷氣的用電它能夠應付比較大的電量就像充電樁它必須應付較大的充電車電動車的容量但是學校只要有屋頂型太陽光電板這個學校就變成什麼變成一個發電廠"},{"start":283.379,"end":295.355,"text":"太陽光電板加上這個EMS那加上一個儲電設施這個學校就可以成為社區的供電中心你同意嗎是好 那往下看其實電動車一般人買的電動車行駛的時間占高還是停的時間占比例高"},{"start":299.799,"end":312.992,"text":"應該是停的時間對電動車停止的時候它就是一個什麼主電設施啦它停在建築物內部的時候它就是一個material所以呢其實我們在談未來的電動車用量會上升我們有一個什麼東西虛擬電廠往下看"},{"start":317.355,"end":330.774,"text":"所以台電也在思考V2G我們怎麼樣台電的虛擬電廠必須搭配都市裡面每個大樓都有儲能設施這個虛擬電廠就會運作了解了嗎了解了 台電是不是這樣子"},{"start":333.822,"end":352.495,"text":"是的所以我們最近在修電源法就有把這個概念放到新的電源法裡面去定如果未來我們的民眾都用電動車他停在公寓大樓裡面的停車場問題不是消極的去擔心充電窗的電容夠不夠擔心他安全能力夠不夠"},{"start":353.095,"end":367.935,"text":"重點是在於我們的這個電路系統 建築法規有沒有配套把這樣的電動車視為大樓的儲能設施配合上屋頂型光電板 虛擬電廠就可以推動了有沒有估算過它的電力供應會多大台電有沒有估算 能源有沒有估算"},{"start":369.51,"end":394.763,"text":"呃有我們其實這個計畫其實我們呃在小型的實驗計畫都有在做了是就是說這個其實就是我們說的這個叫做Aggregator的概念就是他把太陽光電加上電池的加做整個調和然後配合台電做調度所以你買了輛電動車你的電池可以在離風時候的便宜用電幫台電儲電然後在尖峰用電高電價的時候你的電動車如果沒有在行駛你把你的電力賣給電網還可以賺差價是不是這樣子"},{"start":398.304,"end":423.894,"text":"是的好 社長你覺得這個願景是不是比起我們在關心大樓裡面的充電窗會不會失火必須更前端的去部署是好 來 我們結論了好 今天時間有限請研擬完善建築內充電窗法規的方案這是目前眼前的要求其中包含了建築法規跟台電的營業規則對於大樓的配電室應設置的位置相關的容量一併檢討 可以嗎"},{"start":425.154,"end":440.878,"text":"好 我們來努力第二個 請跟能源署你們一起來 到經濟部的能源署 經濟部內政部一起電動車納虛擬電廠方案能不能提出一個報告能源署可以嗎可以那政府願意配合嗎我們可以配合好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":942,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時57分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請內政部董次長。"],["主席：董次長有請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：另外，請多一點，我們建築研究所的王所長。"],["主席：建研所。"],["鍾委員佳濱：能源署的吳副署長，還有台電的郭總工程師。"],["主席：請各位至備詢臺。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長、各位相關主管長官，我這邊要問「建築內充電樁法規要盡速完善，電動車納虛擬電廠要超前部署」，但是在這個問題之前，我們看一下今天的題目，前面已經問很多了，我們看簡報第1頁，首先是電動車充電充滿爭議啊！其實就是安全顧慮跟消費糾紛，目前的公寓大樓蓋在這幾年以前的比比皆是，多數的用戶並沒有使用電動車，但是看到了失火的新聞、充電樁起火的新聞，住戶會擔心他的安全。但是要買房子的人如果有電動車，他希望買到的車位有充電樁，請問到目前為止，次長，就你綜合上午各位委員的詢問，你認為關鍵要從哪裡去解決？"],["董次長建宏：首先感謝委員垂詢，委員這張圖講得非常清楚，我想最關鍵的議題還是在於災害防制的問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有，我認為是法規的問題，法規我直接告訴你，本來預售屋這些記明載的事項當然是國土署他們在處理的，但是我們看看第2頁，公寓大樓管理條例裡面寫的「設置管線」，這個第六條住戶要遵守，對不對？但是同樣的，「拆除」也要，如果管委會不同意，你現在就動彈不得。在現有的建築要處理充電樁就要動這個條例，次長，您看呢？如果你不動這個條例，你怎麼去處理？"],["董次長建宏：原則上我們還是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：現有的大樓啊！"],["董次長建宏：對，現有的大樓原則上我們還是以安全為主，將安全相關的規範做好之後，我們就會去輔導各個管委會進行相關的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：輔導沒有辦法強制嘛！它只要不同意就不行嘛！"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，因為大家最主要是安全上有疑慮，所以剛剛包括召委也提到，資訊的充分溝通是很重要的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那只是一個假設啦！好，我想這個是法規，你們要去研議。","第二個問題，談到這個法規，接下來要請台電跟建築研究所的所長，其實我個人過去從小在屏東長大，只要有颱風，難保不會積水，一積水地下室就灌水，後來的大樓它的配電室進水了，台電要怎麼辦？第一，水要抽乾；第二，配電室要電線都烘乾，然後才能開始進行復電，只要有一棟大樓在你們的迴路當中沒有辦法到這個程度，整個迴路的用電都沒有辦法復電，是不是這樣？"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：是，委員講得對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那現在問題來了，有沒有規定新建的大樓配電室不得設於地面以下？有沒有規定？你們的營業規則有沒有規定？"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：這個是規定在建築技術……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們的營業規則也有寫，你們要送電，你來申請用電，你必須配電室要在地面層以上，有沒有例外？"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有，切結嘛！"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，所長，我剛剛問了總工程師，他說建築法規如果規定強制什麼樣規格以上的建築物的配電室必須設在地面層以上，建築法規規定了，台電絕對遵辦，建築法規有沒有這個規定？"],["王所長榮進：目前確實沒有限制……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有規定啦！原則啦！"],["王所長榮進：沒有要求一定要設在路面……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們是寫原則啦！"],["王所長榮進：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以次長，接下來請你了，你要去督導，今天不是只有電動車充電樁的問題，未來公寓集合大樓的供電系統需要做整個法規的研修，可不可以承諾相關的法規會邀集建築研究所、台電公司來做整個配套的翻修？可以嗎？"],["董次長建宏：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，可以。接下來我們來看看，有沒有聽過「班班有冷氣」？"],["董次長建宏：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：「班班有冷氣」後面的一個潛臺詞叫做「校校發電廠」，為什麼？因為「班班有冷氣」它有裝一個EMS的能源管理系統，這個時候它不只能夠供應日光燈的用電，可以供應冷氣的用電，它能夠應付比較大的電量，就像充電樁它必須應付較大的充電車、電動車的容量，但是學校只有屋頂型太陽光電板，這個學校就變成什麼？變成一個發電廠，太陽光電板加上這個EMS，再加上一個儲電設施，這個學校就可以成為社區的供電中心，你同意嗎？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，往下看。其實一般人買了電動車，是行駛的時間還是停的時間占的比例高？"],["董次長建宏：應該是停的時間。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，電動車停止的時候，它就是一個什麼？儲電設施啊！它停在建築物內部的時候，它就是一個battery，所以其實我們在談未來的電動車用量會上升，我們用一個什麼東西？虛擬電廠，所以台電也在思考V2G啊！台電的虛擬電廠必須搭配都市裡面每個大樓都有儲能設施，這個虛擬電廠就可以運作，瞭解了嗎？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：瞭解了。台電，是不是這樣子？"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，能用虛擬電廠，這是不是你們的希望？"],["吳副署長志偉：是的，所以我們最近在修電業法就有把這個概念放到新的電業法裡面去訂相關的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果未來我們的民眾都是用電動車，他停在公寓大樓裡面的停車場，問題不是消極地去擔心充電樁的電容夠不夠，擔心它安全能力夠不夠，重點是在於我們的電路系統、建築法規有沒有配套把這樣的電動車視為大樓的儲能設施，配合上屋頂型光電板，虛擬電廠就可以推動了，有沒有估算過它的電力供應會多大？台電有沒有估算？能源署有沒有估算？"],["吳副署長志偉：有，其實我們在小型的實驗計畫都有在做，這個就是我們說的aggregater的概念，就是它把太陽光電加上電池整個調和，然後配合台電調度。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你買了一輛電動車，你的電池可以在離峰時候的便宜用電幫台電儲電，然後在尖峰用電、高電價的時候，你的電動車如果沒有在行駛，你把你的電力賣給電網還可以賺差價，是不是這樣子？"],["吳副署長志偉：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，次長，你覺得這個願景是不是比起我們在關心大樓裡面的充電樁會不會失火，必須更前瞻地去部署？"],["董次長建宏：是，我同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們做結論，今天時間有限，請研擬「完善建築內充電樁法規」的方案，這是應目前眼前的要求，其中包含了建築法規跟台電的營業規則，對於大樓的配電室應設置的位置、相關的容量一併檢討，可以嗎？"],["董次長建宏：好，我們來努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第二個，請跟能源署，能源署你們一起來，都在經濟部的，能源署、經濟部、內政部一起，針對「電動車納虛擬電廠」方案，能不能提出一個報告？能源署，可以嗎？"],["吳副署長志偉：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：內政部願意配合嗎？"],["董次長建宏：我們可以配合。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員。","下一位請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159152","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159152","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770ffc3d7855f42f16672f58198bcf8270c186f8ffab8834d98376b3930739f4ced85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"11:41:03 - 11:50:15","影片長度":"00:09:12","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:41:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:50:15+08:00","duration":552,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.58784375,"end":0.6890937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.3303437500000002,"end":3.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.334093750000001,"end":6.342218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.56159375,"end":8.805968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.24471875,"end":13.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.547843750000002,"end":15.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.184093750000002,"end":21.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.137218750000002,"end":23.723468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.20471875,"end":22.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.47846875,"end":26.035343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.16596875,"end":28.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.452843750000003,"end":27.891593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.039093750000003,"end":35.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.21096875,"end":42.235343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.58971875,"end":65.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.79284375,"end":68.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.57284375,"end":118.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.72534375000001,"end":190.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.29221875000002,"end":201.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.57721875000001,"end":203.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.40409375000002,"end":211.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.04846875,"end":217.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.56659375,"end":246.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.80284375000002,"end":220.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.73846875,"end":224.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.47846875000002,"end":241.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.11471875,"end":266.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.39846875,"end":268.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.57534375,"end":280.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.23596875000004,"end":293.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.16221875,"end":305.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.14346875,"end":308.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.77596875,"end":323.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.91284375000004,"end":328.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.07659375000003,"end":339.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.53909375,"end":353.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.74784375,"end":364.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.23971875,"end":375.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.95534375,"end":396.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.16721875,"end":422.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.86784375,"end":425.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.31034375,"end":426.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.98534375,"end":427.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.18346875000003,"end":433.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.40221875000003,"end":433.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.46096875,"end":440.04659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.50659375000004,"end":439.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.08034375000005,"end":447.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.64034375000006,"end":452.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.96846875000006,"end":454.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.72784375000003,"end":466.62471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.43471875000006,"end":475.48409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.63596875,"end":484.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.95096875,"end":486.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.65096875,"end":490.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.87409375000004,"end":516.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.65909375,"end":526.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.8178437500001,"end":528.4209687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.58971875,"end":544.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.59971875,"end":549.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.6497187500001,"end":550.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.6072187500001,"end":552.7378437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":15.578,"text":"剛才提到的問題喔各部位如果有自然難行的部分歡迎提追加如果凍結的部分有需要趕快新聞委員會就來解凍來做報告了齁那這邊我想再次回到今天的主題我們就要請內政部董事長還有交通部的黃市長市長市長是市長也等我一下交通部市長市長沒關係OK"},{"start":27.42,"end":41.945,"text":"市長好市長好我想今天我們內政委會來討論的就是我們工藝大廈的這個設置電動車充電設施的議題那其實這件事情我想民眾已經反映很久了那根據統計我們截至到2024年年底"},{"start":42.705,"end":68.163,"text":"全台灣純電動車的登記數已經將近10萬台現在可能已經突破10萬台了那現在市場部分國內純電動車在2024年的銷售也有3.8萬輛的這個電動車那年生大概是53.4%增加的速度非常快我想因此我們中央的法令跟政策也要跟上腳步那不過現在各縣市大概反映的問題"},{"start":69.605,"end":84.078,"text":"就是我們社區的大樓充電樁的比例依然是很低主要原因還是住戶擔憂整個電動車引發的火災的問題我想之前跟消防署署長有聊過這件事情確實是一個比較複雜的火災現象"},{"start":88.001,"end":103.842,"text":"那而且雖然內政部三年前提出的這個工業代價管理條例裡面的修法草案包括我們這個電動裝設置前的這個用電安全公共意外保險的這個項目但現在到2025年了我們修法的速度實在是趕不上電動車補給的速度"},{"start":104.583,"end":118.509,"text":"所以才引發很多民眾的抱怨我們政府的動作太慢了行政院甚至宣布說我們2040年要新售的汽車要全面以全面電動化為目標這聽起來更像是天方夜譚"},{"start":119.793,"end":147.986,"text":"那根據我們今天各部會提出的報告裡面清楚的寫著依據我們行政院113年10月14日的會議結論經濟部為電動車經濟部是我們電動車充電充換電站的主管機關嘛那設置充電裝裝置還有涉及多個部會的這個主管法規那其中我們經濟部負責是電氣安全跟社會標準那交通部負責是我們電動車運具的管理還有充電"},{"start":149.366,"end":174.725,"text":"佔的這個配置的規劃跟體制上的管理那內政部我們這邊負責的是消防安全跟我們建築的這個管理那對於今天各部會的報告本身還是非常肯定狀況真的有在努力在前進但這個議題實在涉及多面向的法規還有專業的認定這真的需要跨部會各部會來合作來協力來解決才能夠有效的來完成這個任務那這邊我也具體的建議在跨部會的這個平均溝通"},{"start":175.385,"end":200.868,"text":"我們行政院的政委必須要發揮作用你要透過這部編組定時召開相關的會議開會來討論才能夠有效的推動這相關的政策不會各自馬車亂跑我想這樣才能夠滿足民眾的需求另外我想今天本席在探討我們整個充電樁的部分有一個跟台東有相關的議題本席想要先請教我們交通部的黃司長"},{"start":203.632,"end":210.692,"text":"市長如果你今天是一個電動車的駕駛你要開車帶著家人到外縣市玩首先你會做什麼功課"},{"start":212.348,"end":241.368,"text":"也許可能要先去了解說哪些地方會有充電樁的設置因為路途遙遠嘛,你也怕跌倒車半路車停的那個不是一同有可以解決的事情嗎所以沒錯我想要就是了解我們整個充電站的這個位置如果你在市區內移動在都會區要找到充電樁我想基本上沒有太大的問題但是如果你是跨縣市這樣長途的旅遊充電站的位置就必須要事先掌握嘛對不對"},{"start":242.508,"end":265.507,"text":"那我想尤其以我們東部來講你光是從台北開車到台東或者你起點從高雄開到台東都是一段非常長的旅程而且經過的很多是山路周邊是沒有充電設備的那再加上我們這個經過的觀光景點如果它的充電站又不足的話我想這個會影響到旅客到我們東部旅遊這個意願"},{"start":267.458,"end":292.383,"text":"那我根據這個那個AMP GO的這個統計數據來顯示在我們2024年9月為止我們全台總共有2962座的這個營運中的充電裝那跟去年同期相比大概去年大概是1664座那相比之下多出了1298座的這個充電站那我們年成長率大概到78%"},{"start":294.212,"end":322.279,"text":"那全國的現在全國的加油站大概是2500座左右換句話說我們現在全台灣擁有的充電站的這個數量已經超過了加油站了充電的比90%多不過變成現在是這樣子各縣市充電站的不均的情況還是非常嚴重像我們提到台東縣的情況我們台東縣的整個面積是3515平方公里那到去年9月我們機關跟民間的充電站總共有101"},{"start":324.139,"end":351.081,"text":"三千五八十五三千五百一十五平方公里只有一百零一座那雖然現在也在持續增加中但是比例還是不夠特別是台東現在的幅度南北從最南到最北就一百七十公里那這個電動這樣的距離在整個設置上其實是要更規劃更完整那我們台東縣去年我們電動車的這個掛牌數量跟去年相較增加百分之八十四所以電動車的數量是越來越多我想這個問題"},{"start":353.983,"end":375.11,"text":"為什麼我會提到這個問題因為這個問題不單單是針對台東縣民眾的使用問題它會影響到外地遊客來花東旅遊的這個意願因為我的戰術不是這麼多我既要滿足縣內的這些電動車使用者我要考慮到外縣市來台東旅遊的使用者所以這個解釋問題我同學政府也很用心"},{"start":377.111,"end":396.384,"text":"台中縣政府積極推動綠燈政策除了我們公務車、鈦換成綠燈車以外今年初台中市又增加了22強穩車充電樁並且推出充電5折優惠希望吸引更多人潮開車在台中玩的時候充電還可以優惠給你"},{"start":397.265,"end":424.222,"text":"那我們也希望台東縣能夠達到一個純電動車的城市這個目標就是希望能夠設置一千處結合觀光跟友善產業環境發展推動我們政府所推動這個節能減淡這個慢經濟那這就是我要幫台東縣來跟中央請命我們經典交通部表示說前瞻基礎建設計畫裡面這個公共充電樁的這個設置以及區域充電需求的評估計畫有這個計畫嗎"},{"start":426.643,"end":452.523,"text":"是編列多少錢跟委員報告我們是在12年到13年是編了9.8億那補助我們地方政府來做就是9.8億來補助地方政府做這樣的這事嘛對不對那我們台東縣這個依照我們這個縣政我們現在的這個中央的這個財力分級我們是四級到五級台東縣是屬於第五級就是PMT區的這個充電箱這個比例應該是會拉高嘛對不對"},{"start":455.555,"end":464.864,"text":"基本上我們也鎖定到有些偏遠地區像台東所以我們在去年的那個辦法裡面有增加如果是說屬於第四級第五級的偏遠鄉鎮的話我們會遣而補助的"},{"start":468.012,"end":486.628,"text":"謝謝市長那這邊就是跟市長說這麼多就是這邊有兩件事情我們務必請交通部務必來協助第一個就是我們要依照青山計畫的補助精神針對我們台東地區的觀光景點公共設施的這個充電站挹注更多的經費提升充電的量能"},{"start":487.694,"end":515.781,"text":"我們來促進我們整個環保跟觀光的旅遊也減少我們在地這個充電站的這個城鄉的差距那第二個我們要請經濟部跟交通部這邊共同來研議設置我們官方版這個全台電動車充電站的地圖讓民間業者來合作讓我們開電動車的民眾可以有疾可循減少我在旅遊上的這個充電的焦慮這件事情其實我們真的身邊有發現過就他在開車之前他會擔心說我這樣的電力跟距離夠不夠"},{"start":517.161,"end":544.565,"text":"這個是確實我想未來在整個長途旅遊上一定都會遇到問題那這兩個問題也希望以上的我們交通部還有經濟部來協助那可以來協助嗎事實上我們有一個平台就是交通部有一個叫運輸資源平台叫TDX其實它裡面也有揭露全台一些充電站的位置的靜態資料甚至有些是有動態資料也提供給民眾可以查詢的"},{"start":546.09,"end":549.039,"text":"好謝謝市長那也謝謝我們董事長謝謝謝謝主席謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":899,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（11時41分）謝謝主席。我這邊也呼應一下主席剛才提到的問題，各部會如果有窒礙難行的部分歡迎提追加，如果凍結的部分有需要趕快來報告，請我們委員會這邊來解凍。","回到今天的主題，請內政部董次長，還有交通部黃司長。司長在哪裡？"],["主席：交通部司長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：次長好，司長好。今天我們內政委員會要討論的是公寓大廈設置電動車充電設施的議題，其實這件事情民眾已經反映很久，根據統計，截至2024年年底，全臺灣純電動車的登記數已經將近10萬臺，現在可能已經突破10萬臺了。現在在市場部分，國內純電動車在2024年的銷售也有3.8萬輛，年增大概是53.4%，增加的速度非常快，因此我們中央的法令及政策也要跟上腳步。","現在各縣市反映的問題大概就是社區大樓的充電樁比例依然很低，不過主要的原因還是住戶擔憂電動車引發火災的問題。我之前有跟消防署署長聊過這件事情，它確實是一個比較複雜的火災現象。雖然內政部3年前提出了公寓大廈管理條例的修法草案，包括充電樁設置前的用電安全及公共意外保險的項目，但現在到2025年了，我們修法的速度實在是趕不上電動車普及的速度，所以才會引發很多民眾的抱怨，包含我們政府的動作太慢啦！行政院甚至宣布2040年新售的汽車要以全面電動化為目標，這聽起來更像是天方夜譚。","根據今天各部會提出的報告，裡面清楚地寫著，依據行政院113年10月14日的會議結論，經濟部是電動車充換電站的主管機關，但設置充電樁裝置還有涉及多個部會的主管法規，其中經濟部是負責電氣安全與設備標準，交通部是負責電動車運具管理、充電站配置規劃及停車場管理，內政部這邊負責的是消防安全與建築管理。對於今天各個部會的報告，本席還是非常肯定，中央真的有努力在前進，但是這個議題涉及多面向的法規還有專業的認定，這真的需要各部會跨部會來合作，協力來解決，才能夠有效地完成這個任務。在這邊我也具體地建議，在跨部會的頻頻溝通，行政院的政委必須要發揮作用，你要透過任務編組定時召開相關的會議來討論，才能夠有效推動相關的政策，不會各自的馬車亂跑，我想這樣才能夠滿足民眾的需求。","另外，今天本席在探討整個充電樁的部分，有一個跟臺東相關的議題，本席想要先請教交通部黃司長。"],["黃司長運貴：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：司長，如果你今天是一個電動車的駕駛，你要開車帶著家人到外縣市玩，首先你會做什麼功課？"],["黃司長運貴：也許可能要先去瞭解哪些地方會有充電樁的設置。"],["黃委員建賓：因為路途遙遠嘛！你也怕半路要「顧車」。"],["黃司長運貴：對，會焦慮。"],["黃委員建賓：半路車停了，那個不是一桶油可以解決的事情，是不是？"],["黃司長運貴：是。"],["黃委員建賓：所以沒錯，我想要瞭解的就是我們整個充電站的位置，如果你在市區內移動，在都會區要找到充電樁基本上沒有太大的問題，但是如果你是跨縣市的長途旅遊，充電站的位置就必須要事先掌握，對不對？"],["黃司長運貴：是。"],["黃委員建賓：尤其以我們東部來講，你光是從臺北開車到臺東，或者你近一點從高雄開到臺東，都是一段非常長的旅程，而且會經過很多山路，周邊是沒有充電設備的，再加上經過的觀光景點如果它的充電站又不足的話，我想這個會影響旅客到東部旅遊的意願。","根據AmpGo的統計數據顯示，到2024年9月為止，全臺總共有2,962座營運中的充電站，與前年同期相比，前年大概是1,664座，相比之下，多出了1,298座充電站，年成長率大概到78%。現在全國的加油站大概是2,500座左右。換句話說，現在全臺灣擁有的充電站數量已經超過加油站了哦！充電站比加油站還多，不過現在是這樣子，各縣市充電站不均的情況還是非常嚴重，像我們提到臺東縣的情況，臺東縣整個面積是3,515平方公里，到去年9月我們機關跟民間的充電樁總共有101座，3,515平方公里只有101座，雖然現在有在持續增加中，但是比例還是不夠，特別是臺東縣內那個南北的幅度，從最南到最北就有170公里，這樣的距離在整個設計上其實是要規劃得更完整，而且我們臺東縣去年的電動車掛牌數量與前年相較增加84%，所以電動車的使用是越來越多。","為什麼我會提到這個問題？因為這個問題不單單是針對臺東縣民眾的使用問題，它會影響到外地遊客來花東旅遊的意願，因為我的站數不是這麼多，我既要滿足縣內這些電動車使用者，我還要考慮到外縣市來臺東旅遊的一些使用者，所以為了解決這個問題，我們臺東縣政府也很用心，臺東縣政府積極地在推動中央的綠能政策，除了我們公務車汰換成電動車以外，今年初臺東市又增加了22槍的充電樁，並且推出充電5折的優惠，我們希望吸引更多人潮，你開車來臺東玩的時候，充電還可以優惠給你。","我們希望臺東縣能夠打造一個純電動車的城市，這個目標就是希望能夠設置1,000處，結合觀光跟友善產業環境發展，推動節能減碳的慢經濟，所以在這邊我要幫臺東縣向中央請命，今年交通部表示前瞻基礎建設計畫裡面的「公共充電樁設置及區域充電需求評估計畫」，有這個計畫嘛？"],["黃司長運貴：是。"],["黃委員建賓：是編列多少錢？"],["黃司長運貴：跟委員報告，我們在112年到113年是編了9.8億元。"],["黃委員建賓：9.8億。"],["黃司長運貴：對。"],["黃委員建賓：要來補助我們地方政府，就是9.8億來補助地方政府做這樣的設施，對不對？"],["黃司長運貴：是。"],["黃委員建賓：我們臺東縣依照現在中央的財力分級，我們是4級到5級，臺東縣是屬於第5級，就是偏遠地區的充電樁，這個比例應該是會拉高，對不對？是啦？"],["黃司長運貴：基本上我們也著眼到有些偏遠地區，像臺東，所以我們在去年的那個辦法裡面有增加，如果是屬於第4級、第5級的偏遠鄉鎮的話，我們會全額補助。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝司長。在這邊跟司長說這麼多，就是有兩件事情請交通部務必來協助，第一個就是要依照前瞻計畫補助的精神，針對我們臺東地區的觀光景點、公共設施的充電站挹注更多的經費，提升充電的量能，促進我們整個環保跟觀光的旅遊，也減少在地充電站的城鄉差距。","第二個，我們要請經濟部跟交通部這邊共同來研議，設置官方版全臺電動車充電站的地圖，讓民間業者來合作，讓我們開電動車的民眾可以有跡可循，減少在旅遊上的充電焦慮，這件事情其實在我們身邊真的有發現過，就是他在開車之前會擔心我這樣的電力跟距離夠不夠，這個確實是未來在長途旅遊上一定都會遇到的問題，以上兩個問題希望交通部還有經濟部來協助，可以來協助嗎？"],["黃司長運貴：跟委員報告，事實上我們有一個平臺，交通部有一個運輸資訊平臺叫「TDX」，其實它裡面也有揭露全臺一些充電站位置的靜態資料，甚至有些是有動態資料，也提供給民眾可以查詢。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝司長，也謝謝董次長，謝謝主席。"],["黃司長運貴：謝謝委員。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","按照剛剛的宣告，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時50分）","繼續開會（11時57分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","現在請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159151","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159151","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770ff86fd1bf01f1f9132f58198bcf8270c186f8ffab8834d983e07d3bc095bcb0085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"11:33:17 - 11:40:20","影片長度":"00:07:03","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:33:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:40:20+08:00","duration":423,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.34659375,"end":11.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.37096875,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.277843750000002,"end":75.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.88409375,"end":79.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.37284375,"end":81.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.48659375000001,"end":81.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.76909375000001,"end":128.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.79971875,"end":146.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.87721875,"end":149.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.88096875000002,"end":153.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.45846875,"end":159.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.73596875,"end":168.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.71846875,"end":164.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.88221875000002,"end":240.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.29284375,"end":246.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.92909375000002,"end":247.26659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.45221875000001,"end":253.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.86034375000003,"end":266.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.82471875000005,"end":278.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.95784375,"end":300.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.97971875,"end":306.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.25721875,"end":309.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.67034375000003,"end":313.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.18034375,"end":322.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.56284375,"end":336.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.04159375,"end":337.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.69534375,"end":345.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.00659375000004,"end":345.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.55909375000005,"end":347.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.89659375,"end":349.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.96784375000004,"end":350.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.84534375000004,"end":354.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.12721875,"end":357.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.74721875,"end":358.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.84409375,"end":366.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.07909375,"end":370.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.72409375,"end":371.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.93909375000004,"end":377.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.12471875,"end":372.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.09409375,"end":394.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.91034375000004,"end":403.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.03534375000004,"end":417.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.34534375000004,"end":418.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.72909375,"end":419.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.74596875000003,"end":420.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.68659375000004,"end":423.30659375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.736,"end":29.617,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請我們董正次如果有其他部會相關要補充的話 那麼請官員自行上台好 請次長次長 其實剛剛我在這邊聽了很久 因為我是外委員會的但是我想這個是跟民生相關 所以朝野委員都非常的關注包括剛剛前面的委員都有提到就是現在變成電動車當然是一個趨勢啦但是如果說根據我們現在所看到的市面上的佔比喔 電動車"},{"start":32.058,"end":59.024,"text":"步進它還是比8.2%那麼油電混合車是25.7%但是它其實油電混合車是不需要充電的那多數還是油車那麼根據媒體的報導我們也看得出來就是其實常常是這樣因為電動車的車主在整個大廈裡面就是少數只要表決都不過剛剛很開心我也聽到就是說接下來我們要修法的方向就是希望能夠朝說有它一定的必要性就是說那我們在整體的不要說因為"},{"start":59.824,"end":78.918,"text":"因為其實像我現在本席聽到的很多的陳情都是這樣他實際上面臨的狀況就是整個管委會不願意通過那就變成是先裝先贏但先裝先贏的話就有的線路他會有一定的用電量當你先裝先贏到有一天你突然間發現額滿了那"},{"start":82.824,"end":87.408,"text":"後面的人該怎麼辦就會引發其實不必要的爭議所以本席是非常的肯定這個修法然後透過一定的法定的程序之後讓這個管委會就算是主委或者是其他成員想推動也不要有一兩位因為在情緒上或者是不了解上然後去卡住"},{"start":103.823,"end":126.701,"text":"那麼如果就這樣的話因為剛剛其實大家都想問的就是騎乘到底這樣的一個騎乘是怎麼樣來做排定因為現在說還在調查還在了解當中然後甚至於還沒有抱怨嘛對不對那麼政策可不可以很明確的告訴我們如果今天朝野上面都有這樣的構式的時候騎乘可以加速嗎那麼到底你們抓的時間點會是多久"},{"start":130.141,"end":154.891,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想包括剛才召委都有指示我們就希望儘快在三個月內我們先把相關的法規做盤點一次還有相關的安全規範因為所有的問題包括說地方的那個管委會之所以反對都是安全問題我們把相關的防火區範什麼透過國土署 消防署跟戒嚴所我們三方的研究然後再跟經濟部這邊做協商經濟部當部做協商之後我們儘快在三個月內把相關法規先做"},{"start":155.891,"end":178.146,"text":"一個初步的盤點確認之後那我們趕快提出來跟報院那透過院的協調我們趕快把相關的機制把它建立出來那如果法案這邊都明確了我們就看能不能儘速送大院來審查好所以言下之意這個時間有三個月但說長不長但說短也不短這過程中就很需要做溝通其實我剛剛綜合了一下大家所聽的就是反對充電樁的疑慮者大概就是安全跟花錢我特別整理了一下在安全的部分呢"},{"start":186.051,"end":192.953,"text":"從各位的報告當中 消防安檢的部分已經有指引了就像剛剛政次所說的保險的部分我也很開心就是包括像金管會等等這些產險業者 受險業者他們也都開始針對施工廠商充電樁 社區跟車主等於是說一邊有法規另外一邊也有如果真的不幸發生意外的時候有補強的措施那麼再來就是有關於花錢"},{"start":210.618,"end":222.466,"text":"其實本席也特別去找了甚至我都看過媒體報導其實現在各個縣市都有一些補助跟有一些相關的這些設備的補充那行政院要推動所謂運具電動化及無碳化其實在過去是有補充充電樁包括還有補充這個快充槍啊什麼慢充槍等等所以言下之意這整體的配套的部分不論是安全或者是花錢其實都算完備是吧正次"},{"start":241.325,"end":251.856,"text":"我想相關的法律行政院其實都有完整的配套各部會是一起合作來推動這個政策的好但是問題就來了宣傳夠不夠包括剛剛我聽到委員在問說這個"},{"start":254.935,"end":274.109,"text":"我們現在到底有多少電動樁到底有多少需求那有沒有要去做研究但是羊毛出在羊身上巧婦難為無你之炊我們昨天很遺憾的是總預算這個所謂負益就是被推翻了身為執政黨的委員當然我們立委就是要監督但是現在你們的宣傳費被捅刪60%剛剛還有委員建議說要不要來做一個"},{"start":279.073,"end":296.557,"text":"填掉啊問題是有錢嗎我剛剛前面講的我其實我很認真而且我很擔憂的就是說你們現在要花三個月的時間要去把這個理出來但是回到我的第一章反對的人他就是反對因為他會認為他的資訊不夠充足包括安全的資訊不夠充足包括能不能補助的資訊不夠充足現在你們有錢在三個月內"},{"start":307.339,"end":334.72,"text":"去讓社會凝聚共識嗎這是民生法案在這裡現在朝野委員都贊成但是離開這裡之後有很多的老舊公寓有很多的公共場合有很多的大廈裡面就是充滿了他們可能對安全有疑慮對於設備有疑慮對於他們金錢上面可能無法負擔那你們有沒有辦法現在好好的去做宣傳甚至凝聚共識甚至於去找到經費來去做"},{"start":337.113,"end":345.295,"text":"停業調查行政機關依法行事好那我們在法令的範疇裡面我們可以做的事情我們就努力去做所以在這一筆我們現在大家在乎的部分有預算嗎我們會努力蛤有預算嗎不是有努力啊現在很多是不能留用啊我很認真的問喔了解了解有沒有預算有多少預算有沒有預算宣傳有沒有預算去做停業調查跟盤整"},{"start":367.13,"end":377.61,"text":"可不可以從別的地方流用過來可以回答嗎如果不行我們今天在這邊討論了半天每個人都講得好像義正慈嚴的可是民眾可以了解嗎"},{"start":379.124,"end":395.92,"text":"根文報告就是沒有預算的方法就是只能多開會就找地方政府先溝通希望能透過地方政府的這個自己的管道先多努力要不然其實我們本來建管的經費本來就是比較偏少的好多開會開會出去開會要便當錢要車資我提醒你們你們業務費也被砍了所以說我不希望到時候變成是"},{"start":404.076,"end":417.514,"text":"沒有經費沒有預算沒有辦法宣傳沒有人民不能了解開會也開不成只能視訊會議沒有達到溝通那麼今天我認為三個月內你們要達成凝聚共識就有可能辦不到這就是預算被刪減的後果全民要共同承擔的後果謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":875,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（11時33分）謝謝主席。主席，有請董政次，如果有其他部會要做相關補充的話，請官員自行上臺。"],["主席：請次長。"],["林委員楚茵：次長，其實剛剛我在這邊聽了很久，因為我是外委員會的，但是這個是跟民生相關，所以朝野委員都非常關注，包括剛剛前面的委員都有提到，現在電動車當然變成是一個趨勢啦！但是如果根據我們現在所看到市面上的占比，電動車畢竟還是只有8.2%，油電混合車有25.7%，但是油電混合車其實是不需要充電的，那多數還是油車。","根據媒體的報導我們也看得出來，其實常常是這樣，因為電動車的車主在整個大廈裡面就是少數，只要表決都不過。剛剛很開心我也聽到接下來我們要修法的方向就是希望能夠朝向有它一定的必要性，因為以整體來說，像本席聽到很多的陳情都是這樣，實際上面臨的狀況就是整個管委會不願意通過，那就變成是先裝先贏，但是先裝先贏的話，舊有的線路會有一定的用電量，當先裝先贏到有一天突然間發現額滿了，那後面的人該怎麼辦？其實就會引發不必要的爭議，所以本席非常肯定這個修法，透過一定的法定程序之後，讓管委會就算是主委或者是其他成員想推動，也不要有一兩位因為在情緒上或者是不瞭解而去卡住。如果是這樣的話，剛剛大家都想問的就是期程，到底這個期程是怎麼樣排定？因為現在是說還在調查，還在瞭解當中，甚至於還沒有報院嘛！對不對？政次可不可以很明確地告訴我們，如果今天朝野都有這樣的共識的時候，期程可以加速嗎？到底你們抓的時間點會是多久？"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員的指教，我想包括剛才召委都有指示，我們希望儘快在3個月內先把相關的法規盤點一次，還有相關的安全規範，因為所有的問題，包括地方的管委會之所以反對都是安全問題，我們把相關的防火區劃等，透過國土署、消防署及建研所我們三方的研究，然後再與經濟部這邊協商，與經濟部、交通部協商之後，我們儘快在3個月內把相關法規先做一個初步的盤點，確認之後我們趕快提出來跟報院，然後透過院的協調，我們趕快把相關的機制建立出來，如果法案這邊都明確了，我們就看能不能儘速送大院來審查。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以言下之意這個時間有3個月，說長不長，但說短也不短，這個過程中就很需要溝通。","其實我剛剛綜合了一下大家所聽的，反對充電樁的疑慮大概就是安全跟花錢。我特別整理了一下，在安全的部分，從各位的報告當中可以得知，消防安檢的部分已經有指引了，就像剛剛政次所說的。在保險的部分我也很開心，因為包括像金管會等等，這些產險業者、壽險業者他們也都開始針對施工廠商、充電樁廠商、社區及車主，等於是說一邊有法規，在另外一邊，如果真的不幸發生意外的時候，也有補強的措施。","再來就是有關於花錢，其實本席也特別去找了，甚至於我都看過媒體報導，現在各個縣市都有一些補助跟相關設備的補充，像行政院要推動「運具電動化及無碳化」，其實過去有補助充電樁，包括補助快充槍、慢充槍等等，所以言下之意，在整體的配套部分，不論是安全或者是花錢，其實都算完備，是吧？政次。"],["董次長建宏：我想相關的法律，行政院其實都有完整的配套，各部會是一起合作來推動這個政策的。"],["林委員楚茵：好，但是問題就來了，宣傳夠不夠？包括剛剛我聽到有委員在問現在到底有多少充電樁？到底有多少需求？有沒有要去研究？但是羊毛出在羊身上啊！巧婦難為無米之炊啊！我們昨天很遺憾的是總預算的覆議被推翻了，身為執政黨的委員，當然我們立委就是要監督，但是現在你們的宣傳費被統刪60%，剛剛還有委員建議要不要來做一個田調，問題是有錢嗎？","我剛剛前面所講的，其實我很認真而且我很擔憂的就是你們現在要花3個月時間去把這個釐出來，但是回到我的第1張簡報，反對的人他就是反對，因為他會認為他的資訊不夠充足，包括安全的資訊不夠充足，包括能不能補助的資訊不夠充足。現在你們有錢在3個月內去讓社會凝聚共識嗎？這是民生法案，在這裡現在朝野委員都贊成，但是離開這裡之後，有很多的老舊公寓，有很多的公共場合，有很多的大廈裡面可能就是充滿了對於安全的疑慮，對於設備有疑慮，對於他們金錢上面可能無法負擔，那你們有沒有辦法現在好好地去宣傳，甚至凝聚共識，甚至於去找到經費來做田野調查？"],["董次長建宏：我想行政機關依法行事，我們在法令的範疇裡面可以做的事情我們就努力去做。"],["林委員楚茵：所以在這一筆……"],["董次長建宏：我們會努力。"],["林委員楚茵：現在大家在乎的部分有預算嗎？"],["董次長建宏：我們會努……"],["林委員楚茵：有預算嗎？不是有努力啊！現在很多是不能流用啊！我很認真的問哦！"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解。"],["林委員楚茵：瞭解，有沒有預算？有多少預算？有沒有預算宣傳？有沒有預算去做田野調查跟盤整？可不可以從別的地方流用過來？可以回答嗎？如果不行，我們今天在這邊討論了半天，每個人都講得好像義正辭嚴的，可是民眾可以瞭解嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，沒有預算的方法就是只能多開會啦！就是找地方政府先溝通，希望能透過地方政府自己的管道先多努力，要不然我們建管的經費本來就是比較偏少的。"],["林委員楚茵：好啦！多開會，出去開會要便當錢、要車資。我提醒你們，你們的業務費也被砍了，我不希望到時候變成是沒有經費，沒有預算，沒有辦法宣傳，人民不能瞭解，開會也開不成，只能視訊會議，沒有達到溝通，那麼今天我認為3個月內你們要達成凝聚共識就有可能辦不到，這就是預算被刪減的後果，全民要共同承擔的後果，謝謝。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員。","署長、次長，如果沒有田野調查的預算，你追加，本席保證支持，我想我們傅總召在預算覆議的質詢也講得非常清楚，內政部真的有什麼需要做的事情，敘明理由提追加，這個本來大家都可以處理。當然我們剛剛在質詢的時候也提得非常清楚，也可以與地方政府一起合作，任何有助於推動政策的方案大家都會支持，遇到困難大家協商來處理，好不好？","接下來我們繼續質詢，下一位請黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159150","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159150","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f0bc0ad9aeb394c332f58198bcf8270c186f8ffab8834d98332fe287ba23c3e1c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:23:05 - 11:33:10","影片長度":"00:10:05","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:23:05+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:33:10+08:00","duration":605,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.39784375,"end":1.6003437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.2078437500000003,"end":4.654718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.122843750000001,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.649718750000002,"end":10.442843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.68721875,"end":27.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.195343750000003,"end":31.266593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.009093750000005,"end":36.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.93659375,"end":38.354093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.455343750000004,"end":40.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.32409375,"end":51.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.92159375,"end":52.056593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.056593750000005,"end":57.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.99659375,"end":58.35096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.35096875000001,"end":77.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.90909375000001,"end":89.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.31221875,"end":90.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.63284375,"end":156.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.02284375,"end":106.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.05659375,"end":106.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.96784375,"end":107.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.46221875,"end":158.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.46596875,"end":161.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.64284375,"end":167.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.97096875,"end":170.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.17721875,"end":174.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.31159375000001,"end":181.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.79596875000001,"end":181.48784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.52159375000002,"end":182.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.90534375000001,"end":182.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.93909375,"end":190.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.63909375,"end":187.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.73534375,"end":191.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.79846875,"end":192.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.96721875,"end":193.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.15659375,"end":198.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.69221875000002,"end":197.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.15596875,"end":200.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.75909375,"end":201.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.26909375000002,"end":204.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.75846875000002,"end":205.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.58534375000002,"end":205.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.26034375,"end":206.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.81721875000002,"end":207.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.60159375,"end":210.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.49596875,"end":217.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.81971875000002,"end":219.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.69284375,"end":220.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.40159375000002,"end":225.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.62846875000002,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.36159375000003,"end":234.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.54284375,"end":236.71971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.88846875000002,"end":237.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.94284375,"end":246.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.33409375000002,"end":247.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.36784375000002,"end":247.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.16096875000002,"end":254.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.80971875000003,"end":260.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.80534375000002,"end":256.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.12159375,"end":258.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.58534375,"end":260.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.49221875,"end":261.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.50909375000003,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.09096875,"end":266.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.37721875,"end":273.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.00159375000004,"end":269.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.37221875,"end":285.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.81096875000003,"end":273.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.89534375,"end":273.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.94596875,"end":273.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.96284375,"end":274.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.37034375,"end":289.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.50534375,"end":286.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.96034375,"end":290.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.33159375,"end":294.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":293.11596875000004,"end":295.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.00159375000004,"end":299.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.16159375,"end":298.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.85346875000005,"end":302.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.54909375,"end":305.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":303.57846875,"end":304.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.62034375,"end":307.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.09284375000004,"end":306.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.11346875000004,"end":313.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.46721875000003,"end":322.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.93409375000005,"end":324.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":325.83659375,"end":333.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":334.00409375000004,"end":338.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.37034375,"end":342.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":341.42909375000005,"end":355.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.33409375,"end":357.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.86534375,"end":368.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":368.86784375,"end":372.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.98534375,"end":374.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.43659375000004,"end":375.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.27596875,"end":404.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.42221875,"end":385.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.71034375000005,"end":404.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":406.27971875000003,"end":428.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.28784375000004,"end":409.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.52346875,"end":412.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.56784375,"end":425.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.66909375,"end":425.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.36471875,"end":443.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.56659375000004,"end":433.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.30346875000004,"end":443.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":443.55659375000005,"end":444.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.05846875000003,"end":457.34346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":458.82846875,"end":460.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.42721875,"end":473.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":462.03471875,"end":462.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":465.49409375000005,"end":465.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":467.14784375000005,"end":467.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.90659375,"end":472.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.70784375000005,"end":477.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.62721875000005,"end":477.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":477.71159375,"end":477.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.89721875000004,"end":478.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":477.98159375000006,"end":483.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":483.61784375,"end":494.89034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":495.09284375000004,"end":497.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":497.42159375000006,"end":498.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.36221875,"end":499.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":499.44659375000003,"end":500.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.75846875,"end":501.99471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":502.28159375,"end":522.9365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.78284375000004,"end":507.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":523.37534375,"end":525.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":526.46346875,"end":538.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.85534375,"end":530.5303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.5303437499999,"end":530.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.3103437500001,"end":534.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":538.9172187500001,"end":551.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.1828437500001,"end":541.0772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.54846875,"end":549.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.65784375,"end":551.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":551.9109687499999,"end":556.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.91471875,"end":555.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":556.3828437500001,"end":600.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.18346875,"end":563.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.6740937500001,"end":583.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":600.71346875,"end":601.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":604.24034375,"end":605.4384687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.414,"end":28.375,"text":"好 主席謝謝 麻煩請我們董次長然後以及我們交通部的黃司長次長 司長有請好 來 次長 司長我想幾個部分喔 可能相關的同仁也可以一起來那我先確認一下 其實今天張偉排這個案非常的好因為這也是目前面臨到的一個問題那很多的這個住戶 社區大樓的住戶他可能也是想說購買電動車 結果他要充電裝"},{"start":32.045,"end":57.01,"text":"那變成是說光這個內部住戶的溝通成本就非常的高那不管是這個專業的一個評估判斷即便大家也都知道是說其實充電樁現在應該算是相對成熟的技術你的危險係數也是低可是人難免對會有一些相關的疑慮所以在來來回回的這個溝通裡面反而造成很多住戶跟住戶之間的紛爭"},{"start":58.83,"end":77.149,"text":"對 次長你可以理解我們所說嘛所以不管是我們現在講是說我們要出來的這所謂的再修正的公寓大廈管理條例的修正但更重要的是能不能網站或者是說哪邊可以有一個完整的說明是可以讓"},{"start":78.05,"end":89.649,"text":"住戶他是真的想買電動車的時候他真的想要在他的自己的車位裝電動裝充電裝的時候能夠讓其他人可以更能夠快速理解這一些疑慮的部分"},{"start":91.448,"end":106.807,"text":"謝謝委員的指教那也跟委員報告事實上相關的資訊我想第一步還是在確定說充電樁本身也要跟委員報告充電樁本身發生意外的可能性比較低所以現在其實大家真正的爭議是在電動車本身充電的時候電動車的狀況"},{"start":109.269,"end":128.606,"text":"電動車的狀況所以那隨著科技技術的進步當然電動車它本身在技術上面還有它的電池的改善它都會有一些改變所以電動部這邊就是說我們會將相關的防火區隔等等排行設備都做好之後我們會把這些相關的法令規範也說明確的公佈上網那在未來"},{"start":129.446,"end":157.371,"text":"我們可能就在完善相關的法規之後我們會在國土署消防署我們的網站上面就把這些相關的資訊用一個專欄的方式讓大家就明確知道那事實上剛才也好包括我們召委也指示我們就是說是不是就針對許多的公益大廈管理的委員會因為他們有一個組織那我們透過這些跟組織的一些對話瞭解我們去發現說到底真正關鍵問題是哪一些那我們要溝通所以你剛剛講到是說專欄的部分未來會由內政部這邊來主動成立"},{"start":159.905,"end":173.592,"text":"匯集相關的意見就是整個相關它要設置在公寓大廈內的狀態我們會來處理好 那我想請教一下現在我們有沒有掌握全台公寓大廈社區裡面有多少個社區已經裝了這個充電樁"},{"start":175.353,"end":196.908,"text":"剛剛也報告過 這個我們目前不太容易掌握到因為我們現在有4萬多的所以我們不清楚說我們到底公寓大廈有哪些公寓大廈已經有充電樁所以更沒有辦法回答我我下一個問題是有多少私人充電樁有多少我們全台停車場充電樁也沒有辦法台電也沒有這個資料交通部有沒有這個資料"},{"start":204.795,"end":232.247,"text":"對 如同因為我們傳統的概念加油站汽車用汽油就是加油站嘛那我想中油就可以掌握或是經濟部可以掌握民營公營的加油站有多少那換算這個所謂的電動車充電樁我還是在強調我們不是說要讓大家覺得是說有一定的危險度但是我的意思是說當充電樁的部分"},{"start":233.67,"end":259.585,"text":"設置了多少我們全台灣到底有沒有主管機關來做了解因為內政部管的是公寓大廈嘛我現在不知道說我四萬多公寓大廈裡面到底有多少公寓大廈裡面是有充電樁我想那個交通部管的是停車場停車場到底有多少停車場現在有設了多少的充電樁因為應該是台電會比較有完整的資料台電知道嗎因為所有的申請是到最後是到台電來台電"},{"start":261.533,"end":285.01,"text":"今天台電是我們總工程師喔專業總工程師我尊重專業來根委員報告齁那我們統計是六都齁到去年12月以管委會的名義跟台電申請的大概有364件就六都那已經送電大概295件大概是這樣子一個數字那其他縣市"},{"start":285.57,"end":306.515,"text":"沒有統計如果是匯六都加起來大概一萬一千多件都是以我們剛剛講的是以管委會名義來申請以管委會名義來申請那如果說以私人名義來申請因為這個量就比較多我們可能沒辦法但是還有人私人名義來申請申請在公寓大廈裡面有可能有可能嘛只要管委會同意就可以好 來 市長"},{"start":309.164,"end":324.5,"text":"本期點出這個問題其實還是在於是說好總工你先回去本期點出這個問題重點是什麼重點是社會主管機關既然我們今天討論以及未來你也講是說工業大廈管理條例會做修正是不是應該要去做思考"},{"start":325.902,"end":350.216,"text":"充電樁設置之後有沒有一個至少讓我們主管機關能夠了解全台灣的一個充電樁的分佈那還有充電樁有沒有定期維護保養的必要性充電樁應該本來就要有定期維護保養那誰要去監視誰要去管理或是了解這個充電樁我的假設你現在也不了解說哪一個社區大樓沒有充電樁"},{"start":350.996,"end":375.604,"text":"那他裝了充電樁之後他可能十年都沒有去做維護管理或是說沒有去做安全的檢視那這樣會不會有風險或者是說我現在買了電動車開了兩年我覺得不符合我需求我換車了我換成油車那我的這個電動樁充電樁我就沒有再使用那要不要有做後續的處理的部分"},{"start":376.665,"end":404.472,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們接下來我們會透過我們工業大廈管理條例的修正我們會去加速掌握所有充電樁在設置的對那但是充電樁的設備它第一個它是向台電申請那也依據電業法第32條第一項規定要去做定期的檢驗所以是台電會去做後續的檢驗這就跟所有的電表一樣表後表前都是由台電來做處理但看起來台電現在也沒有辦法完全的掌握"},{"start":406.708,"end":435.888,"text":"所以是不是好市長因為今天內政委員會嘛您來而且我們討論的是公寓大廈的部分我想公寓大廈既然我還是強調這個是一個趨勢未來只會面對更多不會少我想這是必然的趨勢那必然趨勢的話不要說真的遇到問題之後我們才來解決問題如果說能夠思考的話我們多思考一點那最後交通部我請教因為現在2025年我們停車場法也有做修正如果說停車場的部分是需要有一趴"},{"start":437.068,"end":457.297,"text":"兩趴跟一趴公營是兩趴的充電柱那民營是一趴以上充電柱的停車格嘛那現在也有業者陳情反應是說他們都願意配合可是他們遇到的狀況是公寓如果說他是用商業大樓租下面的這個開放空間當作是成豬那商業大樓如果說他們不同意給申請充電樁這怎麼辦"},{"start":461.445,"end":473.108,"text":"根委員基本上交通部縣是公共的停車場尤其是路外的公共停車場是我們這邊來負責是剛剛委員所講的商業大樓部分是不是回歸到建築"},{"start":474.795,"end":499.821,"text":"建築俠館的單位可能要去掌握的就是一樣啊是說公共開放空間的停車場嘛有一些是民營業者有沒有有一些大樓它可能地下的車位它就是因為有這個隆基獎勵等等所以它比較多車位那它就是委外業者來經營變成是對外的停車空間嘛那對外停車空間它是也是受我們停車場法來要求規範啊來"},{"start":502.355,"end":524.782,"text":"跟委員報告 我了解委員講的這個題目的產生可能法規上的一個矛盾那應該這麼說 因為我們今年在跟消防署在跟監獄所要把消防的相關的規範把它定義清楚那這樣其實也後續就可以給所有管委會就透過範本的指引給各管委會也就是告訴各管委會說如果未來他設置能夠達到這樣的一個標準"},{"start":526.942,"end":555.514,"text":"那其實管委會應該是要接受這樣的一個做法所以過去就是因為大家有安全餘力所以很多管委會都直接打回票是那所以我們今年一個很重要的努力目標趕快把這些安全的這個標準跟規範所以未來這某種程度上會變成是它有一個標準只要能夠達到標準的話管委會不太能夠用說我就是看你不開心我就是不可以讓你爭是不是這樣對某種程度上它也是符合政策法規的一個方向沒錯沒錯"},{"start":556.334,"end":583.477,"text":"好 所以這最後大家還是老問題什麼時候能夠出來所以跟各位報告我們大概未來這三個月努力的方向就是把這個消防安全跟防火去化的標準趕快把它定義出來那這個出來以後我們也確認怎麼樣落入到法規包含建築基礎規則還有消防的法規那我們把它落可以確認怎麼去落入以後我們就會跟行政院來做建議因為現在原有的修法版本還在行政院那我們再重新做調整"},{"start":584.298,"end":600.816,"text":"能夠快但我還是強調是安全專業的情況下把相關的規範訂立出來那也讓更多人是相信專業相信數據而不是一味的只是覺得說情緒或是說覺得說對這個事情不夠了解而造成彼此的誤會可以嗎可以謝謝好 謝謝黃孟愷委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":798,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時23分）主席謝謝，麻煩請董次長，以及交通部黃司長。"],["主席：次長、司長有請。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長、司長，我想幾個部分可能相關的同仁也可以一起來，我先確認一下，其實今天召委排這個案非常地好，因為這也是目前面臨到的一個問題，很多社區大樓的住戶可能也想購買電動車，結果他要裝充電樁，變成光是內部住戶的溝通成本就非常地高，不管是專業的評估判斷，即便大家也都知道充電樁現在應該算是相對成熟的技術，危險係數也低，可是人難免會有一些相關的疑慮嘛！"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以在來來回回的溝通裡面，反而造成很多住戶與住戶之間的紛爭啊！"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：對不對？次長，你可以理解我們所說的嘛？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以除了我們現在在講的公寓大廈管理條例的修正，更重要的是，能不能在網站或者是在哪邊有一個完整的說明，可以讓住戶真的想買電動車的時候，他真的想要在他自己的車位裝充電樁的時候，能夠讓其他人可以更快速理解這一些疑慮的部分？"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員的指教，事實上相關的資訊，我想第一步還是在確定真正的爭議。也要跟委員報告，充電樁本身發生意外的可能性比較低啦！所以現在大家真正的爭議其實是在電動車本身。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，充電的時候電動車的狀況嘛！"],["董次長建宏：對，電動車的狀況。隨著科技技術的進步，當然電動車本身在技術上面，還有電池的改善，它都會有一些改變，所以內政部這邊會將相關的防火區隔等等，以及排煙設備都做好之後，把這些相關的法令規範都明確地公布上網。未來我們可能在完善相關法規之後，會在國土署、消防署的網站上面，把這些相關資訊用一個專欄的方式讓大家明確知道。","事實上，剛才包括召委也指示我們是不是就針對許多公寓大廈管理的委員會，因為他們有一個組織，我們透過跟這些組織的一些對話瞭解，我們去發現到底真正關鍵問題是哪一些，然後怎麼樣來溝通。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你剛剛是說專欄的部分未來會由內政部這邊來主動成立，匯集相關的意見？"],["董次長建宏：就是整個相關它要設置在公寓大廈內的狀態，我們會來處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那我想請教一下，現在你們有沒有掌握全臺公寓大廈社區裡面，有多少社區已經裝了充電樁？"],["董次長建宏：這個剛才報告過，我們目前不太容易掌握到，因為現在有四萬多的公寓大廈……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你們不清楚到底有哪些公寓大廈已經有裝充電樁？"],["董次長建宏：對，這個我們需要跟地方政府再去確認。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以更沒有辦法回答我，我下一個問題是有多少私人充電樁？全臺停車場有多少充電樁？也沒有辦法回答？"],["董次長建宏：交通部也沒辦法知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：台電也沒有這個資料？"],["董次長建宏：台電……"],["洪委員孟楷：交通部有沒有這個資料？因為以我們傳統的概念，加油站，汽車用汽油就是加油站嘛！我想中油就可以掌握或是經濟部可以掌握民營、公營的加油站有多少，那換算所謂的電動車充電樁，我還是再強調，我們不是要讓大家覺得有一定的危險度，但是我的意思是說，當充電樁的部分設置了多少，全臺灣到底有沒有主管機關來做瞭解？因為內政部管的是公寓大廈嘛！我現在不知道四萬多個公寓大廈裡面到底有多少公寓大廈是有充電樁。"],["董次長建宏：我想那個……"],["洪委員孟楷：交通部管的是停車場，到底有多少停車場現在有設了多少的充電樁？"],["董次長建宏：應該是台電會有比較完整的資料。"],["洪委員孟楷：台電知道嗎？"],["董次長建宏：因為所有的申請最後是到台電。"],["洪委員孟楷：來！台電，今天台電是我們總工程師，專業總工程師，我尊重專業，來！"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：跟委員報告，我們統計六都到去年12月，以管委會的名義跟台電申請的大概有364件，就是六都，已經送電大概295件，大概是這樣子一個數字。"],["洪委員孟楷：其他縣市沒有統計？"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：其他縣市，如果是非六都加起來大概一萬一千多件，我們剛剛講的是以管委會名義來申請。"],["洪委員孟楷：以管委會名義來申請。"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果說以私人名義來申請？"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：因為這個量就比較多，我們可能沒辦法統計。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是他可能以私人名義來申請，申請在公寓大廈裡面。"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：有可能。"],["洪委員孟楷：對不對？有可能嘛！"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：因為只要管委會同意就可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。來，次長。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，總工你先回去。本席點出這個問題，重點是什麼？重點是身為主管機關，既然我們今天討論，以及未來你也講公寓大廈管理條例會做修正，是不是應該要去思考充電樁設置之後，至少要讓主管機關能夠瞭解全臺灣充電樁的分布？還有，充電樁有沒有定期維護保養的必要性？"],["董次長建宏：充電樁本來就應該要定期維護保養，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，誰要去監視？誰要去管理或是瞭解這個充電樁？我就假設，你現在也不瞭解哪一個社區大樓裡面有充電樁，那它裝了充電樁之後，它可能10年都沒有去做維護管理或是沒有去做安全檢視，這樣會不會有風險？或者是我現在買了電動車，開了兩年我覺得不符合我需求，我換車了，我換成油車，所以我的充電樁就沒有在使用，那要不要做後續處理的部分？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，我們接下來會透過公寓大廈管理條例的修正，加速掌握所有充電樁在設置的狀態。"],["洪委員孟楷：會納入？"],["董次長建宏：對，但是充電樁的設備，第一個，它是向台電申請，依據電業法第三十二條第一項的規定要去做定期檢驗，所以台電會去做後續的檢驗，這就跟所有的電表一樣，表後、表前都是由台電處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是看起來台電現在也沒有辦法完全掌握啊！所以是不是……"],["董次長建宏：它有明定的申裝數量。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，次長，因為今天是內政委員會嘛！您來，而且我們討論的是公寓大廈的部分，我還是強調，這是一個趨勢，未來只會面對更多不會少。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我想這個是必然的趨勢，既然是必然趨勢的話，不要真的遇到問題之後，我們才來解決問題。"],["董次長建宏：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果能夠思考的話，我們多思考一點。","最後，我請教交通部，因為現在2025年我們停車場法也有修正，如果是停車場的部分需要有1%，2%跟1%，公營是2%的充電柱，民營是1%以上有充電柱的停車格嘛！"],["黃司長運貴：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在也有業者陳情反映他們都願意配合，可是他們遇到的狀況是，如果他是租商業大樓下面的開放空間，當作是承租，商業大樓他們不同意申請充電樁，這怎麼辦？"],["黃司長運貴：基本上交通部現在是管公共的停車場，尤其是路外的公共停車場是我們這邊來負責，至於剛剛委員所講的商業大樓部分，是不是回歸建築轄管的單位可能要去掌握的？"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有，就是一樣啊！公共開放空間的停車場有一些是民營業者，有沒有？有一些大樓它可能地下的車位因為有容積獎勵等等，所以有比較多車位，它就是委外由業者來經營，變成是對外的停車空間嘛！那對外的停車空間也是受我們停車場法來要求規範啊！"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我瞭解委員講的這個題目，可能使人產生法規上的一個矛盾。應該這麼說，因為我們今年在跟消防署、建研所要把消防相關規範定義清楚，這樣後續就可以給所有管委會，透過範本的指引給各管委會，也就是告訴各管委會，如果未來它的設置能夠達到這樣的標準，其實管委會應該要接受這樣的作法。","過去就是因為大家有安全疑慮，很多管委會都直接打回票，所以我們今年有一個很重要的努力目標，就是趕快把這些安全的標準跟規範定義出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以未來某種程度上，它會變成有一個標準，只要能夠達到標準的話，管委會不太能夠說我就是看你不高興，我就是不讓你增，是不是這樣？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：某種程度上它也是符合政策法規的一個方向嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯、沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以最後大概還是老問題，什麼時候能夠出來？"],["吳署長欣修：我們大概未來這3個月努力的方向就是把消防安全跟防火區劃的標準趕快定義出來，這個定義出來以後，我們也確認怎麼樣落入法規，包含建築技術規則還有消防的法規，我們可以確認怎麼去落入以後，我們就會跟行政院建議，因為現在原有的修法版本還在行政院，我們再重新調整。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，真的是希望能夠快，但是我還是強調，要在安全專業的情況下……"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：把相關的規範訂立出來，也讓更多人相信專業、相信數據，而不是一味地只是用情緒或是覺得對這件事情不夠瞭解而造成彼此的誤會，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","下一位請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159149","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159149","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fd6b161daf61c95a92f58198bcf8270c186f8ffab8834d983a478bf4b7292ce505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:13:28 - 11:22:43","影片長度":"00:09:15","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:13:28+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:22:43+08:00","duration":555,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":1.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.738468750000003,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.77971875,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.53471875,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.80346875,"end":24.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.12409375,"end":28.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.684718750000002,"end":33.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.37596875,"end":91.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.21909375,"end":94.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.56471875000001,"end":96.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.26909375000001,"end":96.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.38284375,"end":99.18846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.50909375,"end":100.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.60159375,"end":106.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.66409375,"end":108.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.22909375,"end":120.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.77159375000001,"end":123.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.45471875000001,"end":129.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.78284375,"end":136.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.88721875000002,"end":145.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.62846875,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.27596875,"end":160.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.93409375000002,"end":162.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.95909375000002,"end":164.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.74784375000002,"end":182.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.54284375,"end":180.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.80409375000002,"end":204.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.30284375000002,"end":212.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.30159375000002,"end":218.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.15284375000002,"end":219.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.60846875000001,"end":223.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.08034375000003,"end":228.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.83909375000002,"end":236.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.24721875,"end":251.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.53596875000002,"end":254.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.40471875000003,"end":258.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.64034375,"end":261.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.43721875,"end":264.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.01909375,"end":266.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.97659375,"end":272.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.38909375000003,"end":276.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.69221875,"end":277.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.68784375,"end":279.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.47659375,"end":282.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.42971875,"end":284.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.72909375,"end":288.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.91409375,"end":289.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.28096875,"end":291.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.18346875000003,"end":295.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.30096875000004,"end":297.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.58346875,"end":301.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.77284375,"end":304.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.04659375,"end":305.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.19409375000004,"end":308.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.87284375,"end":311.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.74159375,"end":313.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.92284375,"end":317.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.87159375000005,"end":318.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.03596875,"end":319.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.77409375,"end":322.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.61346875000004,"end":325.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.65096875,"end":326.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.23721875,"end":329.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.17784375,"end":330.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.27034375,"end":331.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.21534375000005,"end":334.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.16846875000005,"end":336.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.05846875000003,"end":341.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.13346875,"end":343.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.51721875000004,"end":344.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.59721875,"end":347.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.14971875000003,"end":347.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.85846875000004,"end":349.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.30971875,"end":350.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.52034375,"end":353.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.71409375,"end":355.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.63784375,"end":357.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.28721875,"end":361.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.43846875,"end":370.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.89284375,"end":371.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.31034375,"end":379.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.97159375,"end":380.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.05596875000003,"end":380.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.45659375,"end":382.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.05971875,"end":385.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.28284375000004,"end":387.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.43034375,"end":388.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.48909375000005,"end":391.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.88534375,"end":392.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.99909375000004,"end":393.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.66971875,"end":398.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.46221875000003,"end":402.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.24596875000003,"end":413.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.31659375000004,"end":421.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.04971875,"end":420.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.12534375,"end":424.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.16284375000004,"end":429.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.34784375000004,"end":432.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.24596875000003,"end":435.82784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.11471875,"end":438.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.67971875,"end":453.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.42846875000004,"end":455.68971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.97659375,"end":456.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.87096875000003,"end":457.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.93409375000005,"end":458.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.91284375000004,"end":466.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.43909375000004,"end":491.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.97096875000005,"end":495.34596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.49784375,"end":497.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.11346875000004,"end":500.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.62784375,"end":511.69784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.22471875,"end":526.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.5647187500001,"end":537.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.0903437500001,"end":545.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.46471875,"end":549.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.13909375,"end":550.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.8134687500001,"end":555.18471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":1.61,"text":"我們請吳清明委員質詢我請我們內政部我們的董事長還有民建署的署長消防署的署長"},{"start":25.168,"end":30.633,"text":"委員好各位好今天我們所討論的針對我們的充電樁的問題"},{"start":33.659,"end":35.26,"text":"充電樁的問題現在已經在推動但是目前是整個74包括全球有1700多萬輛其中5輛就有一輛是我們的電動車所以在國發會2050年進行排放"},{"start":57.966,"end":63.149,"text":"這個路徑 計畫所以我們2040年能夠達到百分之百的電動車但是我們現在存在的問題就是我們的老舊社區所以剛才我看了很多委員 大家都有提出說老舊社區你要怎麼來建置你在新的社區這邊我們營建署就要把關"},{"start":82.678,"end":88.463,"text":"這樣才能落實電動車和電動樁的問題 才能徹底解決但是醫本學來瞭解 大家都擔心的就是老舊社區的電路 絕對符合不了"},{"start":101.81,"end":128.369,"text":"還有呢 你說在本縣的轄區在土城土城 它的鋰電池爆炸造成三個人的死亡這署長都非常清楚所以說你未來你的安全性我們也要第一的考量你新的社區架構絕對沒問題但是你舊的社區你的電路負荷不了的話又會產生一個"},{"start":130.064,"end":135.926,"text":"變成又有一個悲劇發生所以我們都要特別的注意不是說要推動速度要快但是你的安全性你一定要考量到但是本學有一個建議每棟社區都有一個開放空間是不是我們的建構可以在開放空間這邊我們來選擇開放空間的位置建構充電樁我認為這裡我們營建署署長"},{"start":161.065,"end":186.438,"text":"感謝委員 這確實就是我們北京 就是說在這個全部的消防法規 還有安全的設計在地下室如果沒辦法很快完成的時候 還是民眾可以感受到消毒的疑慮的時候今天一個比較好的替代方案就是說 我們在石瓦 我們北面的開放空間先鼓勵它在那裡設 當然也不是說它清拆設就好了"},{"start":187.318,"end":198.702,"text":"這當然我們現在這幾個月跟這個建議所跟消防署的討論就是說我們如果在這個社區的停車機我可以設在我旁邊有相關的灑水設施還是說旁邊有消防栓他第一時間可以趕快降溫這個相關的規範我們如果確定就是要這樣做的時候我們會先透過指引設計一個指引給國管局政府"},{"start":213.688,"end":235.84,"text":"因為現在很多老舊的大樓老舊大樓的地下室大家民眾絕對有疑慮因為很多大樓不管管委會大家都有提出提出還是沒辦法解決因為都太老舊了"},{"start":236.54,"end":258.091,"text":"所以說在開放空間來設置這是應該我們目前內政部應該朝這個方向這樣可以比較保不然你看在我們土城一個鋁電池的爆炸就造成三個人的死亡這種悲劇我們也不想再看到所以我們一定要把關安全性我們一定要把關再來現在就是針對我們客運業"},{"start":265.083,"end":275.906,"text":"客運類我們很多公車都要把它推動電動車但是推動的成效並不好你看光是本席這邊的資料光是新北市就有2500輛然後其中有1600輛逐年要淘汰電動車那累計"},{"start":293.24,"end":295.402,"text":"累計到現在才240輛那我們核定在補助的338輛都陸續要來推動的但是公車業者他們存在一個問題這是我們經濟部還有我們的台電還有我們的能源局大家都要共同來解決客運業他們的問題"},{"start":320.816,"end":341.61,"text":"因為客運列你電動車你所佔的停車比例又更高你一般的柴油車比例20平你電動車要佔的差不多30平然後費用呢光是一個充電樁一個客運列就要花了兩三千萬所以你"},{"start":345.863,"end":361.651,"text":"業者願意花但是我們相關單位配合度又不高不然說台電的電力有問題不然就土地的有問題你知道他們客運業他們的停車場都是用租的租期又短"},{"start":362.546,"end":378.435,"text":"所以我們要徹底來解決你要推動電動車你起碼我們中央的配套一定要先把它做好你這樣才能推動的比較順利那不然業者他們想你政府又不配合然後又要要求我台灣電動車那這樣"},{"start":381.502,"end":402.558,"text":"就不成比例啊這就是我們中央單位你一定要扛起這個肩膀啊我們要怎樣來扶植他那費用又是他們出的然後你一些行政程序我們都是要幫忙來解決問題啊那是不是我請交通部交通部今天有來吧"},{"start":407.181,"end":428.856,"text":"我們交通部目標是在2031年要把我們的市區公車11700輛全面電動化那針對客運業者在貪換過程中大概除了車輛轉換之外很在乎就是有關於充電環境在廠商內充電設施的這件事情那這部分我們在從推動這個電動公車的過程中我們就一直跟經濟部有在合作然後來協助地方政府"},{"start":429.4,"end":455.052,"text":"的客運業者然後來解決這個設置充電站的問題目前我們有有一個三級的機制就是包含台電公司會跟地方政府然後來就客運業者提出來有需要生設充電站的這個部分的話都會盡力來做協助而據我的瞭解台電公司大概陸陸續續大概這幾年有九十二個九十幾個案子大概都已經陸陸續續都已經有協助地方政府的客運業者排除設置充電站這個問題以上根本報告好"},{"start":458.973,"end":473.465,"text":"那因為我為什麼提出這個因為公車早期我們都知道公車它的排放排放量都很大那你要是整個都市裡面都推動電動車都能可以解決這個污染的問題"},{"start":474.566,"end":497.335,"text":"所以你一定要站在我們業者的本身來做協助那這樣他們才願意來來汰換不然你這腳步應該還是沒辦法推動很順利那再來我說他們的停車場租期又短那又短他們要設立又要投資那麼多錢那是不是我們中央"},{"start":498.228,"end":506.279,"text":"找國產署大家來研究由我們國產署提供土地因為是大眾的運輸啊這樣你才能解決他們的問題這樣推動的速度也才會快"},{"start":515.256,"end":537.509,"text":"跟委員報告現在這個客運業者的停車場的依照我們汽車運輸業管理規則都有相關的一些要求啦那至於在客運業者取得這個充電廠站的土地上面有沒有需要跟其他部會包含國產署這邊聯繫說讓他們在取得土地上面然後可以來生設充電站那邊的部分的話有更方便或怎麼樣的話我們會依照委員的建議我們會再找相關單位來做研議以上好"},{"start":538.157,"end":550.345,"text":"我看這就由我們交通部來做主導嘛你找相關單位來做研究好不好研究報告你來通知給本席知道好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":779,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時13分）召委、與會同仁。我請我們內政部的董次長。"],["主席：董次長有請。"],["吳委員琪銘：還有營建署的署長。"],["主席：吳署長，謝謝。"],["吳委員琪銘：消防署的署長。"],["主席：蕭署長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：各位好。今天我們所討論的，針對我們的充電樁的問題，充電樁的問題現在已經也在推動，目前是整個趨勢，包括全球有一千七百多萬輛，其中5輛就有1輛是電動車，所以在國發會2050年淨零排放這個計畫，我們2040年能夠達到百分之百的電動車，但是我們現在存在的問題，就是我們的老舊社區，剛才我看了很多委員都有提出老舊社區要怎麼來建置，在新的社區這邊，營建署就要把關，這樣電動車跟電動樁的問題才能澈底解決，但是以本席的了解，你說大家都擔心的就是老舊社區的電路絕對負荷不了，還有本席轄區土城的鋰電池爆炸造成3個人的死亡，這署長都非常清楚。未來安全性也要第一考量，新的社區建構絕對沒問題，但是舊社區的電路負荷不了的話，又會變成一個悲劇發生，所以這個我們都要特別的注意，不是說推動速度要快，但是安全性你一定要考量到。","本席有一個建議，每棟社區都有一個開放空間，是不是建構在開放空間這邊，我們來想出開放空間的位置建構充電樁？來，我們營建署署長。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，這確實就是我們目前……依全部的消防法規還有安全的設計，在地下室如果沒辦法很快完成的時候，還是讓民眾可以覺得消除他的疑慮的時候，一個替代的方案就是在室外、平面的開放空間，先鼓勵在那邊設。當然也不是隨便設就好了，我們現在這幾個月跟建研所跟消防署的討論，如果在室外的停車格可以設的時候，旁邊有相關的灑水設施，或是旁邊有消防栓，第一時間可以比較快降溫。這些相關的規範，我們如果確定就是要這樣做的時候，我們會先設計一個指引，讓各縣市政府可以在審查的時候，可以特別准他在室外平面的開放空間再來設。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為現在很多老舊的大樓，老舊大樓若要把它放在地下室，民眾絕對有疑慮，因為很多大樓，不管管委會大家都有提出，還是沒辦法解決，因為都太老舊了，所以說在開放空間來設置，內政部應該朝這個方向，這樣才能夠確保安全，不然你看在我們土城，1個鋰電池的爆炸就造成3個人死亡。這種悲劇我們也不想再看到，所以一定要把關安全性。","再來，針對我們客運業很多公車都要推動電動車，但是推動的成效並不好，光是本席這邊的資料，光是新北市就有2,500輛，其中有1,600輛逐年要淘汰換成電動車，累計到現在才240輛，我們核定補助338輛，都陸陸續要來推動，但是公車業者他們存在一個問題，這是經濟部、台電、能源局，大家都要共同來解決客運業的問題，因為客運業電動車所占的停車比例又更高，一般的柴油車比例20坪，電動車要占的差不多三十坪，然後費用光是一個充電樁，客運業就要花了兩、三千萬。業者願意花，但是相關單位配合度又不高，不然說台電的電力有問題、不然就土地有問題，你知道客運業的停車場都是用租的，租期又短，所以我們要澈底來解決，要推動電動車，起碼中央的配套一定要先把它做好，這樣才能推動得比較順利，不然業者想，政府又不配合，然後又要求我汰換電動車，這樣就不成比例……這就是我們中央單位，你一定要有這個肩膀扛起來啊！我們要怎樣來扶植他，那費用又是他們出的，然後你一些行政程序都是要來幫忙解決問題啊！是不是我請交通部？交通部今天有來吧？"],["趙專門委員晉緯：跟委員報告，我們交通部目標是在2030年要把市區公車1萬1,700輛全面電動化。針對客運業者在汰換過程中，除了車輛轉換之外，很在乎的就是有關於充電環境，在場站內充電設施的這件事情。這個部分我們在推動電動公車的過程中，一直有跟經濟部在合作，然後來協助地方政府的客運業者解決設置充電站的問題。","目前我們有一個3級的機制，包含台電公司會跟地方政府就客運業者提出有需要申設充電站的部分，都會盡力協助。據我瞭解，台電公司這幾年有九十幾個案子已經陸陸續續在協助地方政府的客運業者，排除設置充電站的問題，以上跟委員報告。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，我為什麼會提出這個呢？因為公車早期我們都知道，公車的排放量很大，要是整個都市裡面都推動電動車就可以解決這個污染的問題，所以你一定要站在我們業者本身來協助，這樣他們才願意汰換啊！不然你這個腳步應該還是沒辦法推動得很順利。","再來，他們的停車場租期又短，他們要設立又要投資那麼多錢，是不是我們中央找國產署大家來研究，由國產署提供土地？因為是大眾的運輸啊！這樣你才能解決他們的問題，推動的速度也才會快。"],["趙專門委員晉緯：現在客運業者的停車場依照我們汽車運輸業管理規則都有相關的一些要求啦！至於在客運業者取得充電場站的土地上面，有沒有需要與其他部會包含國產署這邊來聯繫，讓他們在取得土地上面申設充電站的部分能夠更方便或怎麼樣的話，我們會依照委員的建議，再找相關單位研議，以上。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，我看這個就由交通部主導，你找相關單位研究，好不好？研究報告給本席知道，好不好？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘委員，我想吳委員強調的是交通部的公車場站規則很多啦！但是資源很少，希望交通部多幫忙，改善大眾運輸的品質。","接下來請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159148","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159148","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fe789bd46662f54d42f58198bcf8270c186f8ffab8834d9831445c6f97c71b35d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:01:30 - 11:13:17","影片長度":"00:11:47","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:01:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:13:17+08:00","duration":707,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.2915937500000005,"end":6.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.793468750000001,"end":9.919718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.57784375,"end":11.742218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.31096875,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.344718750000002,"end":17.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.289718750000002,"end":23.352218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.68971875,"end":31.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.09346875,"end":33.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.30846875,"end":34.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.37159375,"end":36.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.46409375,"end":37.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.30784375,"end":73.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.79159375,"end":89.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.99596875,"end":136.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.02221875,"end":139.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.58721875,"end":143.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.34596875,"end":144.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.36284375,"end":144.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.83534375000002,"end":165.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.49034375000002,"end":176.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.54346875000002,"end":176.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.84721875000002,"end":179.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.51346875000002,"end":180.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.00284375,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.03659375,"end":180.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.32346875000002,"end":180.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.40784375,"end":211.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.86284375000002,"end":214.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.88784375,"end":221.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.66721875000002,"end":231.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.10034375,"end":231.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.47159375,"end":231.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.97784375,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.03096875000003,"end":250.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.94221875000002,"end":244.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.58346875,"end":245.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.79846875,"end":246.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.92846875,"end":253.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.67471875,"end":256.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.80096875000004,"end":258.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.53909375,"end":258.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.83409375,"end":262.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.84221875000003,"end":265.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.47034375000004,"end":269.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.92596875000004,"end":268.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.18721875,"end":271.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.63409375000003,"end":271.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.41034375000004,"end":272.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.42721875,"end":282.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.21471875000003,"end":291.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.26909375,"end":285.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.32284375,"end":296.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.54159375,"end":314.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.35721875,"end":328.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.54909375,"end":343.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.94346875,"end":345.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.39034375,"end":348.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.95534375,"end":350.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.91284375000004,"end":361.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.83096875,"end":361.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.47221875,"end":362.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.48909375,"end":371.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.17971875,"end":373.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.10784375000003,"end":416.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.86034375,"end":429.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.25596875,"end":423.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.82034375,"end":438.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.69659375000003,"end":457.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.71346875,"end":439.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.60096875000005,"end":457.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.98471875,"end":458.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.89596875,"end":484.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.91284375000004,"end":459.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.88346875,"end":493.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.99596875000003,"end":494.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.97471875,"end":499.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.93596875000003,"end":506.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.14159375,"end":511.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.00596875,"end":520.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.3728437500001,"end":513.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.49846875,"end":518.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.6415937500001,"end":520.9115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.97909375,"end":529.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.37471875,"end":545.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.1084687499999,"end":533.1628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.6984687500001,"end":534.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.9709687500001,"end":558.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.2222187500001,"end":563.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.6772187500001,"end":564.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.07784375,"end":578.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.31409375,"end":565.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.84784375,"end":577.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.97846875,"end":579.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.21034375,"end":580.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.91909375,"end":581.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.58971875,"end":586.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.99409375,"end":598.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.8234687500001,"end":614.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.70284375,"end":622.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.7859687499999,"end":628.4053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.13096875,"end":633.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.63659375,"end":636.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.85971875,"end":637.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.87221875,"end":637.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.88909375,"end":644.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.8247187500001,"end":665.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.7397187500001,"end":649.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.0334687500001,"end":659.3034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.02409375,"end":672.1453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.7409687500001,"end":667.7578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":672.2465937500001,"end":698.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.39034375,"end":697.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.8797187499999,"end":698.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.60534375,"end":698.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":698.9765937500001,"end":699.43221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.126,"end":10.667,"text":"好謝謝主席 董事長有請請董事長"},{"start":19.603,"end":35.396,"text":"市長辛苦了我們再次確認一下環境部公布的淨零碳排的目標包含大幅提升電動車的一個佔比有助於推動淨零碳排這樣的一個大的核心的方向內政部要不要配合內政部是全力配合內政部要全力配合對不對"},{"start":36.537,"end":61.862,"text":"那這個我想市長應該不會反對啦在公寓大廈裡面廣設電動樁讓這個總體來講的環境不管是你路外的停車場也好或者是公寓大廈裡面讓它變得跟電動車對電動車相對友善應該是有助於推動這樣子的政策目標對不對是這個前提我們要把它確認好嘛對不對但實務上來講當進入到實際上操作的階段的時候當然就遇到了很多的阻力啦"},{"start":62.242,"end":73.235,"text":"我們今天專案報告的題目是工藝大廈裝設電動車輛的充電裝置的種種的疑難雜症請問從次長的角度來看你作為主管機關這個最大的阻力是什麼"},{"start":73.817,"end":98.617,"text":"我想跟謝謝召委也謝謝各位委員今天的指教其實最關鍵的還是在安全的部分我想包括說特別是在地下設置的時候因為地下通常都為單一出口所以它一旦發生不可測試是時候最近當然因為有幾個這個電動車自燃的案件那當然就會出現安全上的疑慮這個本席不反對但其實大概就是四件事情啦"},{"start":98.837,"end":120.649,"text":"一個叫法規有限制嘛比如說法規硬性規定你不能裝那當然沒話講大家都不能說但顯然沒有這個問題對不對因為是可以的第二個是很多的技術問題今天我們之所以找台電找經濟部特別要報告其實就是確定其實在技術上它也是可行的所以我覺得技術問題也是小事即便說有一些老舊你要重新拉線技術上基本上都可以克服其實最大是後面這兩個問題第一個剛剛是你"},{"start":122.31,"end":143.548,"text":"市長你提到的有關安全的疑慮也就是說我的防火防災怎麼樣去確定可以維持社區的一個品質那另外一個我想是今天也有很多委員有提到但我想是我今天要更加強調的其實是社區內部的溝通問題啊我現在先從安全問題來出發安全疑慮啊跟你減碳的大目標兩個現在看起來有點打架怎麼辦"},{"start":144.96,"end":164.632,"text":"跟委員報告我想安全的疑慮的部分事實上消防署已經公布相關的一些法令規範而且我們也補充了補足在地方政府所需要的一些消防設備同時我們也訓練我們的消防弟兄們針對電動車意外的一些相關的救援方式所以這個部分我們都在精進當中"},{"start":165.532,"end":186.81,"text":"我可不可以這樣解釋就是說按照市長剛剛的說明你已經推出了很多的政策目標不管是中央來做地方來做或是一起來做其實也是從用技術的手段去降低安全的疑慮是所以可以說是技術手段可以克服的問題對不對對在一定層次上所以某一些層面安全疑慮我們當然希望內政部積極來做執行但基本上大家也覺得這是一個可以被克服的目標"},{"start":187.27,"end":210.858,"text":"所以他不會因為有安全的疑慮所以我就抵觸了現在環境部也好淨零碳排廣設電動裝推動電動車這樣的初衷不會抵觸嘛對不對OK那我們就談那我們就往下談啦安全問題可以技術克服但是最大的問題其實是社區管理嘛剛剛即便張宏祿召委也有講新的大樓有新的規範但即便有新的規範有預留管線要不要做充電裝是不是還是要過管委會這一關"},{"start":212.134,"end":230.942,"text":"原則上還是由管委會來共同決定還是由管委會來共同決定對不對所以我講最大的問題就是社區管理這個以內政部到目前為止的了解你覺得這個冬浴大廈裝電動裝的問題是不是普遍出現在各個社區的一個疑難雜症或者是一個很難處理的公共議題是或不是"},{"start":232.083,"end":247.795,"text":"我想這個真正的關鍵還是回歸到第一個問題就是說如果它不是一個就是我們在安全上面可以達到一定程度的時候事實上它本身的疑慮就會下降我這安全疑慮我們剛剛已經講完了嘛就技術問題略克我想問內政部這樣問一個問題好了就是說你們有沒有了解比如說我們有多少全台灣有多少公寓大廈有一些數據的資料國土署長救援一下也可以"},{"start":260.865,"end":270.669,"text":"目前了解大概有4萬多啦4萬多棟公寓大廈他們都有管理組織嗎就是現在公寓有對不對有納管的其中有多少有在討論電動裝的問題"},{"start":272.852,"end":300.533,"text":"就我知道啦其實在六都的應該非常非常多都已經在討論而且討論完沒有結論的應該更多了很好我想署長有碰觸到問題的核心啦就第一這個大部分人都有遇到這個問題不管裝了或沒裝大家都有討論這個事然後第二個很多時候是不了了之或者是最後沒有辦法升裝然後甚至有多少社區因為這樣吵架對簿公堂的搞不好也都有對不對所以"},{"start":301.173,"end":328.251,"text":"當然我們就剛剛這個其實很多委員都問過了就是說你現在針對大廈管理這件事情你要如何來做指引跟導引因為你這個國土署你曾經發布過新聞嘛你講說我要協助社區建立共識對不對署長所以你應該有一定的政策目標跟KPI我們先講現在實務上操作你是鼓勵地方政府去提出相關的注意事項或者是指引對不對但就出現一個問題啦有些縣市"},{"start":329.608,"end":350.379,"text":"方法不一樣你看表格有的是指導跟注意事項有的有因為社區的社區的核心運作就是靠規約嘛所以有些乾脆有把規約範本有提供出來讓大家可以做參考有一些有有一些沒有那更好更比較糟糕的是除了六都以外相對來講其他縣市就連相關的指引都沒有了"},{"start":350.979,"end":379.836,"text":"那我想請問這個中央要不要來統合處理第二個如果你要交給因為基於地方自治有地方自需求你怎麼樣確保地方政府有積極在推動這件事請你回答好 感謝委員因為很重要的一點就是說我們現在為什麼由中央的話就必須要把安全的部分先完全考慮清楚對我們講安全的已經我會支持對不對這個安全的標準定出來就可以放到相關的指導或是規約修正裡面"},{"start":380.396,"end":407.459,"text":"要去討論這一件事那這也是我們為什麼在今年積極要趕快完成這件事情因為在消防的技術上如果能夠跟防火區劃上如果能夠確認的話我們給各縣市政府的標準就會更一致那也有利於各縣市政府去做相關規約的一個修正我想這是第一點那第二點就是說當然對很多老舊的大樓舊的大樓來講另外一個就是設置的成本的問題"},{"start":408.3,"end":416.002,"text":"那這也是為什麼我們在這過程當中也要透過比較全面性的檢討來一方面來確認安全的標準第二個"},{"start":416.929,"end":441.378,"text":"可不可以有效的降低設置的成本那這些成本有些是管委會要負擔的有些是車主本身要負擔的我們再進一步把它做一些界定那這些界定就會到時候會跟經濟部跟交通部去討論看看這些成本的負擔上面怎麼去做一個區分那這樣的話我想對各個管委會來講就會更清楚更有更清楚的答案才可以剛剛署長的回答基本上是一個方向性的回答"},{"start":441.618,"end":457.868,"text":"我們希望 既然都已經排了專案報我們將有更具體的一些數據包含到底有多少的案例那我這希望希望這個內政部裡面去做一下調查我知道你們工藝大廈管理人力是非常缺的整個缺四萬多個你們才幾個人我記得加約聘不到十個人啦"},{"start":458.408,"end":484.063,"text":"對加一個科然後這樣子的人員編制其實在地方政府也是一樣我是覺得該做一下調整公寓大廈是越來越多人選擇特別是年輕的族群會居住的地方這管理問題值得深思那剛剛署長有講幾個至少大家看到一點方向也就是說當然你要配合因為我們剛剛講安全跟社區溝通兩個問題一起解決所以你的安全一些相關的法規跟規範要先有個譜嘛那請問這樣子的東西的時間表是什麼也就是說你打算什麼時候完成相關"},{"start":485.443,"end":499.253,"text":"規範的設計他要不要經過立法院審議討論什麼時候會有一個具體結果然後以至於推動未來你會有一個統一的指引標準讓整個環境變得更友善跟委員報告大概就今年內的是先希望把消防安全的部分"},{"start":500.074,"end":520.28,"text":"先做確認 第一個確認以後可能在消防方面的規定還有我們建築紀律規則的規定這一個部分我們就希望能進一步去修因為他就不需要再透過立法的他應該是行政規則可以處理你說今年 現在是今年是3月13到12月也是今年5月也是今年那有沒有再明確一點的時間表"},{"start":521.58,"end":539.438,"text":"我想可能就是未來這三個月跟消防署跟建研所這邊把這個技術的部分都確認以後我們今天竟然都看了專案報告就表示其實我看執行委員都還蠻踴躍的啦所以我希望這個速度可以加快那第二個相關公寓大廈管理條例總要調整不見得只是針對充電樁公寓大廈這個法規是非常陳舊過時的"},{"start":542.961,"end":565.017,"text":"部裡面現在有沒有安排修法的計畫報告其實原來已經有一個版本在行政院那所以如果這個技術如果討論的確認的話需要跟院再溝通修版本的話我們會再跟院來溝通把那個版本做一些修正你們今年會提出公寓大廈管理條例的修法版本嗎就從治理的角度我們是希望啦希望今年可以提出來有這樣子的目標"},{"start":566.358,"end":580.534,"text":"市長回去 部長這邊可以多加油我想這種民生法案大家都會很樂意來做討論那我們回到管理的問題啦最後一個質疑其實社區遇到的問題我也就不再拷問大家了啦能不能裝 裝在哪裡怎麼裝 誰出錢怎麼管"},{"start":582.622,"end":607.322,"text":"你們四萬多個大廈有多少個大廈有遇過這樣的問題剛剛署長講很多這些問題是哪一關出了問題是可不可以裝出的問題還是怎麼分錢出的問題還是管理出的問題其實它值得詳細的調查啦我現在希望就是說未來我們要討論安全區劃之外也要修公寓大廈管理條例但是我現在覺得針對這樣子一個題目的研究和田野調查其實是非常少的"},{"start":607.728,"end":627.823,"text":"不管是中央來做或者是你要補助地方來做或者是你要一起做你要委外我都接受但是我希望看到這個我們的內政部針對大廈管理這件事情你可以充電樁作為一個研究案例你至少要了解問題出在哪吧我才會知道未來我在討論公寓大廈管理條例或者是我在發布政策指引的時候我應該怎麼辦"},{"start":629.192,"end":650.621,"text":"那麼針對這樣子的一個研究的案子或研究的報告部裡面有沒有想法還是大家要瞎子摸象大家憑感覺這樣好像也不太好對不對對我說明一下好了因為其實我剛剛第一次回答的那個幾個處理節奏可能就是在解決這些問題也就是說安全規範出來了其實怎麼裝大概其實答案都出來了大家就知道了嘛但是重點在於說誰出錢"},{"start":652.342,"end":671.852,"text":"對有多少責任是管委會多少責任是車主多少可能還要甚至回到車商沒有哪一些東西是車商應該要負擔的那最後這個統合起來如果確認的話最後就是怎麼管我之所以要把這點出來的原因為什麼我講他要做個研究案的原因就是因為你要先知道主要的問題出在哪一階段"},{"start":672.412,"end":698.185,"text":"因為這每一個問題背後都有一套政策邏輯嘛能不能裝人家安全的問題怎麼出錢可能試測未來要不要因為推動電動車要有補助對不對 那是完全不一樣政策邏輯但你要知道主要的問題出在哪才能知道這個事我是希望內幕裡面可以整理詳細的數據啦就是說就你的了解到底大部分卡關卡在哪一關我們才能知道下一次我們要追蹤這個題目的時候要來怎麼樣來做處理啦希望這個部分部裡面來加油好嗎好辛苦了謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":702,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時1分）好，謝謝主席。董次長有請。"],["主席：請董次長。"],["董次長建宏：召委好。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，次長辛苦了。我們再次確認一下，環境部公布淨零碳排的目標，包含大幅提升電動車的占比，有助於推動淨零碳排這樣一個大的核心方向，內政部要不要配合？"],["董次長建宏：內政部是全力配合。"],["牛委員煦庭：內政部要全力配合，OK，我想次長應該不會反對啦！在公寓大廈裡面廣設電動樁，讓總體的環境不管是路外的停車場也好或公寓大廈裡面，對電動車相對友善應該有助於推動這樣的政策目標，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個前提我們要把它確認好。實務上當進入到實際操作階段的時候，當然就遇到很多的阻力。今天專案報告的題目是「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置」的種種疑難雜症，請問從次長的角度來看，作為主管機關最大的阻力是什麼？"],["董次長建宏：謝謝召委、也謝謝各位委員今天的指教。其實最關鍵的還是在安全的部分，特別是在地下設置的時候，因為地下通常都為單一出口，所以它一旦發生不可測之事……"],["牛委員煦庭：最近因為有幾個電動車自燃的案件，當然就會出現安全上的疑慮，這個本席不反對。但大概就是4件事情，一個叫法規有限制，比如法規硬性規定你不能裝，那就沒話講，大家都不能說，但顯然沒有這個問題，因為是可以的；第二個是很多的技術問題，今天我們之所以找臺電、找經濟部，特別讓他報告，就是確定在技術上它也是可行的，所以我覺得技術問題也是小事，即便有一些老舊要重新拉線，技術上基本都可以克服。其實最大的後面這兩個問題，第一個，剛剛是次長提到有關安全的疑慮，也就是我的防火、防災怎麼樣去確定可以維持社區的品質？另外一個，今天也有很多委員提到，但是我今天更加要強調的是社區內部溝通問題。"],["董次長建宏：嗯、嗯。"],["牛委員煦庭：我先從安全問題來出發，安全疑慮跟減碳的大目標，兩個現在看起來有點打架，怎麼辦？"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，我想安全疑慮部分，事實上消防署已經公布相關的法令規範。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["董次長建宏：而且我們也補足在地方政府所需要的一些消防設備，同時也訓練消防弟兄們，針對電動車意外的相關救援方式，所以這個部分我們都在精進當中。"],["牛委員煦庭：我可不可以這樣解釋，按照次長剛剛的說明，你已經推出了很多政策目標，不管是中央來做、地方來做或一起來做，其實也是用技術手段去降低安全的疑慮。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以可以說是技術手段可以克服的問題，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：對，在一定層次上。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以某些層面安全疑慮，我們當然希望內政部積極執行，但基本上大家也覺得這是一個可以被克服的目標，所以它不會因為有安全的疑慮就牴觸了現在包括環境部也好，淨零碳排廣設電動樁、推動電動車這樣的初衷，不會牴觸嘛，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：OK，那我們就往下談，安全問題可以技術克服，但是最大的問題是社區管理，剛剛張宏陸召委也有講新的大樓有新的規範，但即便有新的規範、有預留管線，要不要做充電樁是不是還要過管委會這一關？"],["董次長建宏：原則上還是由管委會來共同決定。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是由管委會來共同決定，所以我講最大的問題就是社區管理。以內政部到目前為止的了解，你覺得公寓大廈裝電動樁的問題，是不是普遍出現在各個社區的一個疑難雜症，或是一個很難處理的公共議題，是或不是？"],["董次長建宏：好，我想這個真正的關鍵還是回歸第一個問題，就是我們在安全上面可以達到一定程度的時候，事實上它本身的疑慮就會下降。"],["牛委員煦庭：我知道安全疑慮，我們剛剛已經講完了嘛！就是技術問題可以克服。"],["董次長建宏：對，就是民眾之所以……"],["牛委員煦庭：我問內政部這樣一個問題好了，你們有沒有了解，比如說全臺灣有多少公寓大廈？有沒有一個數據的資料？國土署長救援一下也可以。"],["吳署長欣修：目前了解大概有四萬多。"],["牛委員煦庭：四萬多棟公寓大廈，它們都有管理組織嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：就是現在登記有……"],["牛委員煦庭：都有管委會。"],["吳署長欣修：對、對、對。"],["牛委員煦庭：有納管的。其中有多少在討論電動樁問題？"],["吳署長欣修：就我知道在六都應該非常、非常多都已經在討論，而且討論完沒有結論的應該更多。"],["牛委員煦庭：很好，我想署長有碰觸到問題的核心。"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：第一，大部分人都有遇到這個問題，不管裝了或沒裝，大家都有討論這個事；第二個，很多時候是不了了之或最後沒有辦法申裝，甚至有多少社區因為這樣吵架、對簿公堂的搞不好也都有，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛這個問題其實很多委員都問過了，就是現在針對大廈管理這件事情，你要如何來做指引跟導引？因為國土署曾經發布新聞講說要協助社區建立共識，對不對？署長，所以你應該有一定的政策目標跟KPI。我們先講現在實務上操作，你是鼓勵地方政府去提出相關的注意事項或指引，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但就出現一個問題，有些縣市方法不一樣，你看表格有的是指導跟注意事項，因為社區的核心運作就是靠規約，所以有些乾脆把規約範本提供出來，讓大家可以做參考，有一些有、有一些沒有，比較糟糕的是除了六都以外，相對其他縣市就連相關的指引都沒有了。我想請問中央要不要來統合處理？第二個，因為基於地方自治有地方之需求，你怎麼樣確保地方政府有積極在推動這件事，請你回答。"],["吳署長欣修：好，感謝委員。因為很重要一點就是我們現在為什麼由中央的話，就必須要把安全的部分先完全考慮清楚。"],["牛委員煦庭：我想安全的部分已經著手，我們會支持。"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，安全的標準訂出來就可以放到相關的指導或規約修正裡面去討論，這也是我們為什麼今年要積極趕快完成這件事情，因為在消防的技術上跟防火區劃上，如果能夠確認的話，我們給各縣市政府的標準就會更一致，也有利於各縣市政府去做相關規約的修正，我想這第一點；第二點，當然對很多老舊的大樓來講，另外一個就是設置成本的問題，這也是為什麼我們在這過程當中，也要透過比較全面性的檢討，一方面來確認安全的標準，第二個可不可以有效降低設置的成本，這些成本有些是管委會要負擔，有些是車主本身要負擔的。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["吳署長欣修：我們再進一步把它做一些界定，這些界定到時候會跟經濟部、跟交通部去討論，看看這些成本的負擔怎麼區分，這樣的話我想對各個管委會就會有更清楚的答案，可以依循……"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛署長的回答，基本上是一個方向性的回答，但我們既然都已經排了專案報告，希望看到更具體的數據，包含到底有多少的案例？我希望內政部去做一下調查，我知道你們公寓大廈在管理人力上是非常缺的，整個四萬多個，你們才幾個人？"],["吳署長欣修：才一個科。"],["牛委員煦庭：我記得加約聘不到10個人。"],["吳署長欣修：對，加一個科。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣子的人員編制，其實在地方政府也是一樣，我是覺得該做一下調整，公寓大廈是越來越多人的選擇，特別是年輕族群會居住的地方，這個管理問題值得深思。剛剛署長有講幾個，至少大家看到一點方向，當然你要配合，因為我們剛剛講安全跟社區溝通兩個問題一起解決，所以安全相關的法規跟規範要先有個譜，請問這樣子的東西時間表是什麼？也就是你打算什麼時候完成相關規範的設計？它要不要經過立法院審議討論？什麼時候會有一個具體結果？以致於未來推動會有一個統一指引標準，讓整個環境變得更友善。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，大概就今年內希望把消防安全的部分先做確認，第一個確認以後，可能在消防方面的規定，還有建築技術規則的規定，這一個部分，我們希望能進一步去修，因為它就不需要再透過立法的程序……"],["牛委員煦庭：它應該是行政規則可以處理。"],["吳署長欣修：對，行政規則。"],["牛委員煦庭：你說今年，今天是3月13日，到12月也是今年，5月也是今年，有沒有再明確一點的時間表？"],["吳署長欣修：我想可能就是這未來這3個月跟消防署跟建研所這邊把技術的部分都確認以後……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們今天既然都開了專案報告，就表示其實……"],["吳署長欣修：我們其實都有這樣的進程……"],["牛委員煦庭：而且我看質詢委員都還滿踴躍的，所以我希望這個速度可以加快。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個，相關公寓大廈管理條例總要調整，不見得只是針對充電樁，公寓大廈管這個法規是非常陳舊過時的，部裡面現在有沒有安排修法的計畫？"],["吳署長欣修：報告，其實原來已經有一個版本在行政院，所以如果這個技術討論確認的話，需要再跟院溝通，若要修版本的話，我們會再跟院來溝通，把那個版本做一些修正。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們今年會提出公寓大廈管理條例的修法版本，就是從治理的角度，行政院這邊……"],["吳署長欣修：我們是希望今年可以提出來。"],["牛委員煦庭：有這樣子的目標，那就希望次長回去，部長這邊可以多加油，我想這種民生法案大家都會很樂意來做討論。","我們回到管理的問題，最後一個質疑，其實社區遇到的問題，我也就不再拷問大家了，就是能不能裝？裝在哪裡？怎麼裝？誰出錢？怎麼管？你們四萬多個大廈，有多少個大廈有遇過這樣的問題？剛剛署長講很多，這些問題是哪一關出了問題，是可不可以裝出了問題？怎麼分錢出了問題？管理出了問題？其實值得詳細的調查，我現在希望未來我們要討論安全區劃之外，也要修公寓大廈管理條例。我現在覺得針對這樣子一個題目的研究和田野調查，其實是非常少的，不管是中央來做，或者是你要補助地方來做，或者是要一起做、要委外，我都接受。我希望看到內政部，針對大廈管理這件事情，可以以充電樁作為一個研究案例，至少要了解問題出在哪吧？我才會知道未來我在討論公寓大廈管理條例，或者是我在發布政策指引的時候，我應該怎麼辦。針對這樣子的一個研究的案子或研究的報告，部裡面有沒有想法？還是大家要瞎子摸象？大家憑感覺，這樣好像也不太好，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對，我說明一下好了，其實我剛剛第一次回答的那幾個處理節奏，可能就是在解決這些問題，也就是說，安全規範出來了，其實怎麼裝，大概其實答案都出來了。"],["牛委員煦庭：大家就知道了。"],["吳署長欣修：但是重點在於誰出錢，有多少責任是管委會、多少責任是車主、多少責任甚至可能還要回到車商。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒錯。"],["吳署長欣修：有哪些東西是車商應該要負擔的，這個統合起來，如果確認的話，最後就是怎麼管。"],["牛委員煦庭：我之所以要把這點出來原因，為什麼我講它要做個研究案的原因，就是因為你要先知道主要的問題出在哪一階段，因為這每一個問題背後都有一套政策邏輯，能不能裝是安全的問題，怎麼出錢可能事涉未來要不要因為推動電動車要補助，它是完全不一樣的政策邏輯，但你要知道主要的問題出在哪，才能知道這個事。我是希望內政部裡面可以整理詳細的數據，說就你的了解，到底大部分卡關在哪，我們才能知道下一次我們要追蹤這個題目的時候要怎麼樣做處理，希望這個部分部裡面來加油，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：辛苦了，謝謝。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭）：下一位我們請吳琪銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159147","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159147","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f54adb6c240b3d3b4fc7dc3b86466824c86f8ffab8834d983ebbb860637a5fd565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:22:16 - 12:29:35","影片長度":"00:07:19","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:22:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:29:35+08:00","duration":439,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.56659375,"end":3.9797187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.58721875,"end":4.620968749999999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.6715937499999995,"end":5.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.945343750000001,"end":8.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.957843750000002,"end":14.374718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.015968750000003,"end":18.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.504718750000002,"end":28.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.90409375,"end":43.500968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.58534375,"end":49.845968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.43659375,"end":54.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.33471875,"end":54.385343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.53721875,"end":58.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.705343750000004,"end":61.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.60784375,"end":63.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.29534375,"end":67.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.71659375,"end":69.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.80909375,"end":70.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.51784375,"end":76.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.47471875000001,"end":80.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.71034375,"end":82.11096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.33034375000001,"end":82.76909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.44409375000001,"end":86.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.67971875,"end":88.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.70909375000001,"end":92.01659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.50596875000001,"end":94.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.17221875,"end":96.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.53909375,"end":97.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.27721875,"end":100.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.96034375,"end":102.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.10346875,"end":103.40721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.77846875,"end":105.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.36034375000001,"end":107.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.79034375,"end":110.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.51159375,"end":116.11409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.63721875,"end":118.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.81409375000001,"end":119.84346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.14721875000001,"end":143.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.40721875,"end":130.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.74284375000002,"end":146.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.94471875000002,"end":159.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.61784375000002,"end":172.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.40909375,"end":184.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.71096875,"end":191.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.62971875000002,"end":194.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.29596875000001,"end":199.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.94909375,"end":202.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.90221875,"end":241.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.75284375,"end":241.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.54596875000001,"end":241.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.64284375000003,"end":249.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.96659375000002,"end":305.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.34596875000003,"end":252.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.37159375000005,"end":318.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.02784375000005,"end":320.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.98096875000005,"end":320.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.90909375,"end":381.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.35034375000004,"end":333.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.60409375,"end":383.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.92034375000003,"end":425.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.02096875,"end":415.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.18534375,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.29784375,"end":425.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.98971875,"end":426.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.37784375,"end":436.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.97534375000004,"end":437.53221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.025,"end":3.668,"text":"謝謝主席 楊泉發言 邀請次長馬上次長"},{"start":7.99,"end":34.445,"text":"我也好市長我要跟你我們來討論這個詐騙的事情那我們有宣誓貫徹這個五打七安政策我們有宣誓要安定經濟秩序啊社會安全科技偵查電信這個網路詐欺的經濟金融不法的案件以及要打擊黑幫組織食安以及綠能"},{"start":35.746,"end":60.197,"text":"等犯罪但是其中呢詐騙案不斷地在增加讓民眾的權益一直受損政府我們推動了行動綱領的這個打詐2.0正式上路可以看出政府的決心但是看不到它的成效我們看到現在所抓到的僅僅抓到車手根本抓不到這個主嫌"},{"start":61.678,"end":84.765,"text":"而更不要說他被詐騙的錢根本追不回來所以民眾很辛苦很苦所以在這樣的情況之下本校請教我們在去年統計8月到12月每個月的財損都破百億每一個月都破百億去年那光光今年這個月"},{"start":87.708,"end":107.668,"text":"第一週就超過了4000件的詐騙案件他的金額超過了16億光光這一個禮拜這個月的第一個禮拜在這樣的情況之下本席要請教你要怎麼樣去協助被詐騙的人他的金額可以追回來"},{"start":108.84,"end":119.502,"text":"那我們有什麼方案我們不斷的2.0不斷的提升但是數字告訴我們是更加的嚴峻所以請教次長"},{"start":120.709,"end":140.85,"text":"法務部所負責的跟打債有關係的當然是相關的炸機的追緝跟被害人的相關的保護那有關查緝的部分後端我們事實上這幾年來我們打到剛年來我們查緝不論是集團數也好人數也好他的查獲量一直在成長的"},{"start":141.511,"end":160.374,"text":"但是委員關鍵是犯罪被害人查過量一直在成長就知道我們的答案是越來越嚴重不一定是這樣子必然的關係那委員提到的就是說被害人的如何快速的被害金可以取得那基本上這個最前端的是甲官要積極去查扣犯罪所得"},{"start":160.914,"end":183.912,"text":"所以我們在在整個相關的函字也要求檢察官在第一線追查這個炸雞案件的時候你一定要首先把犯罪手段給他查扣這一點有查扣才會有返還嘛這第一點查扣面我們加強第二個我們也推一個叫做什麼偵查中跟審判中的調和解制度對你被告你要取得檢察官的緩解訴或你判刑之後檢察官不上訴前提你要跟"},{"start":184.753,"end":198.502,"text":"跟這個被害人達成和解或調解檢察官才會讓你還幾數甚至才不上訴這從訴訟中我們幫助犯罪被害人那訴訟後呢當然我們打造專法有一些相關的讓"},{"start":200.003,"end":219.226,"text":"被害人他的裁判費可以暫時免繳相關的執行費暫時免繳我們來減輕犯罪被害人他求償的訴訟上的困難從這個事前事中事後我們需要透過這些方式來保護我們犯罪被害人及早地拿回他的犯罪被害的金額"},{"start":219.807,"end":241.382,"text":"那我也跟委員報告 我們這次打造專法 這是我們法務部面啦打造專法其實它在定了一條讓我們銀行端 在前端它就可以直接返還這個受凍結帳戶裡面的金錢以前沒有這樣法律規定 現在它在26條裡面特別讓銀行可以做這個事情所以它可以及早就返還 不用等到我們司法機關介入再返還這個就是重點"},{"start":242.674,"end":261.392,"text":"被詐騙者他的目的就是要拿回他被詐騙的這個金額這個重點以新加坡為例新加坡是直接銀行專員就直接到警察局總局去進駐只要有接獲到警察有接獲到案件他們直接"},{"start":262.133,"end":275.946,"text":"可以跟銀行團去確認這個錢還在不在先保護到這個錢所以這個方案是新加坡的這個方式那是不是你們在檢討的時候也可以拿出來檢討因為等到我們檢察官這麼辛苦我剛剛說的這麼辛苦"},{"start":281.191,"end":292.037,"text":"這麼多案也表示詐騙案件一直在累進增加的情況之下我們的方案還有什麼樣剛剛您說的在前端的這三個階段我們還可以怎麼樣去做調整我也提供新加坡的他們怎麼樣確保被詐騙的錢能夠真正的在銀行就扣住才能夠讓被害者可以拿到他們的錢這才是重點"},{"start":305.345,"end":329.83,"text":"我應該報告就是我們打造專法其實有規範啦他財產他的所得被銀行凍結之後啊警示帳戶之後啊他可以司法警察可以通知他這個已經不是詐騙這樣這個是在你剛剛說的第三個動作嘛對對對所以這個可以再精進喔你們再去討論我提供新加坡的這樣子的方式大家再去討論喔我們希望讓這個受害者"},{"start":330.83,"end":351.01,"text":"能夠這個錢可以追回來才是重點接下來我要跟你講毒的問題因為我們看到新世代的反毒策略但是我們看到年齡層似乎有在下降我們看到呢也就是上個月還傳出疑似有國中生遭霸凌未讀致死的案件"},{"start":351.89,"end":380.709,"text":"這些案件媒體一報讓我們的家長很憂心很憂心喔所以我給你一個數字也就是在112年1月到11月我們有474人113年那麼是達到542人是在增加的它不減反增喔不減反增所以年齡層在下降本身要請教喔在我們的面向可以怎麼樣去遏止這一些的毒品進入校園"},{"start":382.671,"end":401.007,"text":"可以怎麼做呢?公文報告那大概就少年這塊當然他是這個教育部他有相關的春暉狀案即將進行相關的宣導跟相關的教育工作那就法務部主管來講就犯罪的偵辦角度來講他這個當然他有可能是少年法庭他所主管的部分"},{"start":401.847,"end":424.779,"text":"就我們保護可以做的 我剛剛也跟其他委員報告是不是我們在成少共犯的狀況之下這少年背後一定有個成年的共犯 有可能有他的獨頭 源頭也可能是成年所以我們在加強追緝這個成年人的部分這是關鍵對 它過後的溯源的共犯的追求成少共犯的問題是我們保護報近期注意到的問題我們積極在成少共犯方面加強他的查緝"},{"start":425.399,"end":435.727,"text":"朔源這是非常重要釜底抽薪那我們也希望在宣導的時候也可以多加宣導讓大家都能夠放心知道這個是不能碰的謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1337,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時22分）謝謝主席！楊瓊瓔發言，邀請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，我要跟你討論詐騙的事情，我們有宣示貫徹「五打七安」政策，要安定經濟秩序、社會安全、科技偵查電信網路詐欺和經濟金融不法案件以及打擊黑幫組織、食安及綠能犯罪等，但是詐騙案不斷的在增加，讓民眾的權益一直受損，政府推動行動綱領打詐2.0正式上路，可以看出政府的決心，但是看不到它的成效。我們看到現在抓到的僅僅是車手，根本抓不到主嫌，更不要說被詐騙的錢根本追不回來，所以民眾很辛苦。在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，根據統計，去年8月到12月，每個月的財損都破百億，光是今年這個月第一週就有超過4,000件的詐騙案件，金額超過16億元。在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，你要怎麼樣去協助被詐騙者的金額可以追回來？我們有什麼方案？打詐2.0不斷的提升，但是數字告訴我們，情況是更加嚴峻，所以請教次長。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，就法務部所負責跟打詐有關係的業務，當然是相關的詐欺追緝跟被害人的保護。有關查緝的部分，在後端，事實上這幾年來，我們查緝到的不論是集團數也好人數也好，查獲量是一直在成長的，但關鍵是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：查獲量一直在成長就知道，答案是愈來愈嚴重。"],["黃次長謀信：不一定是這樣子必然的關係。委員提到被害人的被害金額如何可以快速取得，基本上，這個最前端的是檢察官要積極去查扣犯罪所得，所以我們在相關函釋要求檢察官在第一線追查詐欺案件的時候，首先一定要把犯罪所得給查扣這一點，有查扣才有返還，這是第一點，查扣面我們加強。第二個，我們也推偵查中跟審判中的調和解制度。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["黃次長謀信：被告要取得檢察官的緩起訴，或判刑後檢察官不上訴，前提是你要跟被害人達成和解或調解，檢察官才會讓你緩起訴，甚至不上訴，從訴訟中我們幫助犯罪被害人。訴訟後當然我們打詐專法，有一些相關的讓被害人的裁判費可以暫時免繳，相關的執行費暫時免繳，我們來減輕犯罪被害人求償訴訟上的困難。從事前、事中、事後，我們透過這些方式來保護犯罪被害人，及早拿回他的犯罪被害金額。我也跟委員報告，我們這次打詐專法，這是法務部面，打詐專法其實訂了一條讓銀行端在前端就可以直接返還在受凍結帳戶裡面的金錢，以前沒有這條法律規定，現在在第二十六條裡面，特別讓銀行可以做這個事情，所以可以及早就返還，不用等到司法機關介入再返還，這也是一個。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這就是重點，被詐騙者的目的就是拿回他被詐騙的金額，這是重點。以新加坡為例，新加坡是銀行專員直接到警察局總局去進駐，只要警察有接獲到案件，他們可以直接跟銀行端去確認這個錢還在不在，先保護到這個錢。這個方案是新加坡的方式，那是不是你們在檢討的時候，也可以拿出來檢討，因為檢察官這麼辛苦，我剛才說的這麼辛苦、這麼多案，也表示詐騙案件一直在累進增加的情況之下，剛剛您說的在前端的這3個階段，我們的方案還可以怎樣去做調整，我也提供新加坡怎麼確保被詐騙的錢能夠真正的在銀行就扣住，才能夠讓被害者可以拿到他們的錢，這才是重點。"],["黃次長謀信：有，跟委員報告，打詐專法其實有規範，他的所得被銀行凍結之後，列為警示帳戶之後，司法警察可以通知這個已經不是詐騙洗錢，可以馬上返還。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是你剛剛說的第三個動作。"],["黃次長謀信：對、對、對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以這個可以再精進，你們再去討論，我提供新加坡這樣子的方式，大家再去討論，我們希望讓受害者的錢可以追回來，才是重點。"],["黃次長謀信：及早的返還。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來我要跟你講毒的問題，因為我們看到新世代的反毒策略，但是年齡層似乎有在下降，也就是上個月傳出疑似有國中生遭霸凌餵毒致死的案件。這些案件媒體一報，讓家長很憂心，所以我給你一個數字，也就是在112年1月到11月有474人，113年是達到542人，是在增加的，不減反增，所以年齡層在下降。本席要請教，在我們的面向可以怎麼樣去遏止這些毒品進入校園？可以怎麼做呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，就校園這塊當然教育部有春暉專案即將進行相關的宣導跟教育工作，就法務部主管來講，就犯罪的偵辦角度來講，當然他有可能是少年法庭主管的部分，就法務部可以做的，我剛剛也跟其他委員報告，是不是在成少共犯的狀況之下，這少年背後一定有個成年的共犯，有可能有，毒的源頭也可能是成年，所以我們加強追緝成年的部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是關鍵。"],["黃次長謀信：對，幕後溯源共犯的追究、成少共犯的問題是法務部近期要注意到的問題，我們會積極在成少共犯方面加強他的查緝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：溯源。"],["黃次長謀信：對，溯源。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是非常重要的，釜底抽薪。那我們也希望宣導的時候也可以多加宣導，讓大家都能夠放心知道這是不能碰的。"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員。","羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員。","下一位請蔡易餘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","柯建銘","王義川","吳思瑤","黃國昌","王鴻薇","沈發惠","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00011"}}},{"id":"159146","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159146","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fd1efc28ff7deb48cba53b8a5773cfe3d86f8ffab8834d983280ecaa5b1202abe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"12:20:40 - 12:27:31","影片長度":"00:06:51","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:20:40+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:27:31+08:00","duration":411,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.09284375,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.16659375,"end":32.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.80221875,"end":38.016593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.830968750000004,"end":140.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.19034375,"end":180.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.82971875,"end":227.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.55659375000002,"end":231.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.23534375000003,"end":231.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.26909375000002,"end":231.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.55596875,"end":231.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.39096875,"end":252.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.22346875000002,"end":267.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.93909375000004,"end":276.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.03846875,"end":276.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.88221875,"end":276.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.45596875,"end":277.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.47284375000004,"end":288.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.96471875000003,"end":313.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.72034375000004,"end":325.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.30909375000005,"end":341.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.63159375000004,"end":348.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.01846875,"end":364.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.96971875,"end":377.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.36846875000003,"end":379.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.58346875,"end":401.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.51659375,"end":402.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.76971875000004,"end":405.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.34721875,"end":407.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.46471875000003,"end":411.64596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.264,"end":19.613,"text":"好謝謝主席那謝謝各位辛苦的同仁那當然今天是這個青年基本法的審查所以先請次長好有請次長好次長好其實剛剛很多委員提到這個青年基本法的進度那其實剛剛次長也回應過了這個會期確定會送出是嗎"},{"start":36.173,"end":52.587,"text":"這個會期應該願版會出來好 謝謝那我就希望說其實大家都在等進度啦因為這個我相信朝野都有共識跨黨派也都有提案18個提案那再加上願版我相信這個會期如果能夠把青年基本法順利的三讀通過"},{"start":53.488,"end":69.461,"text":"對於所有台灣的青年來說都是非常正面的消息那當然在這邊就是再次提醒希望這個接下來審查可以順利教育部不要讓年輕人失望那藉這個機會我也想要討論一些青年的權益"},{"start":70.222,"end":88.295,"text":"首先是這個生理假跟身心調適假的部分因為其實我收到蠻多學生來跟我反映說雖然我們教育部底下也是鼓勵大家說請生理假不需要附證明這個都有做到了可是其實很多學生在請生理假的時候還是會被刁難的那就我所知喔"},{"start":91.938,"end":109.894,"text":"現在其實有一些學校甚至沒有放入這個生理假的規定因為當初我問教育部教育部也說這其實是校園自治的範疇那甚至有一些學校是把生理假併在這個併假的類型底下也就是說你請生理假必須要扣到併假的額度"},{"start":112.236,"end":139.75,"text":"那甚至是有一些學校就是說你請生理假也都要不能有全勤也就是說你只要請過一次生理假你全勤的這個規定就獎項就絕對是沒有了然後還有一些說你請生理假你補考不好意思你的成績要打折這個是在學校裡面時時在在在發生的甚至就我所知有的是說你請生理假不好意思喔成績七折起跳"},{"start":141.226,"end":144.468,"text":"這就是現在學校發生的事情那我聽到的時候也覺得蠻不可思議的說其實我們現在性別平等工作法在職場上有非常明確的規定雇主不得要求勞工提交生理假的證明也不得影響權勤的獎金這個是在職場上規定的"},{"start":159.676,"end":179.631,"text":"可是回到校園沒想到我們校園如此的封閉如此的退步竟然是性平教育法裡面也沒有規定說學校不可以去刁難學生請生理假甚至也不能去影響學生的權情這些都是沒有相關規範的導致說很多學生想請生理假他還是不敢請"},{"start":180.905,"end":201.355,"text":"因為他會覺得我被懲罰我請生理假是我的錯嗎請問我生理期來我身心非常不適是我的錯嗎所以其實我得知這個消息之後我也是希望說我們教育部對於各個學校在執行這個保護學生上課權益的這件事情掌握度實在是太低了"},{"start":201.795,"end":226.903,"text":"那我希望在這邊次長雖然今天是次長來有點可惜那我還是希望說教育部可以承諾有一些基本的底線包括說請生理假不可以影響學生的權情然後請生理假也不可以影響學生的考試權益而且請假的流程應該是要隱私而且非常友善的這三個原則我希望教育部可以做到可以嗎"},{"start":227.577,"end":251.879,"text":"我想那個委員我是請那個國藥署副署長來說明一下好那跟委員報告如果就是有關生理假的部分在高中是已經明訂了有這樣的假別那國民中小學的部分是縣市政府會納到他們自己所訂的規定裡頭那只要是納進去在國民中小學裡頭事實上如果他同意他請生理假的話就"},{"start":253.291,"end":276.504,"text":"应该是说不会影响他成绩因为他如果同意这个价别的话补行评量的时候要以实得的分数来计算但是高中的部分因为他们有学校的自主学校的没错这就是我一直在说的每一次我跟教育部反映教育部都说这个是学校的自主但事实上就是有学生因此而受影响所以我们希望教育部可以当学生的后盾嘛"},{"start":278.067,"end":294.563,"text":"對剛剛有提及在國民中小學是不會有這個問題那委員有提及說是不是不影響他的權情那就讓我們跟縣市政府再做討論好這個要拜託副署長那再來另外一個身心價的部分因為確實也有教育部現在有規定你們有一個高等"},{"start":298.206,"end":324.599,"text":"高等中學學校學生身心價的實施注意事項裡面的第十點竟然直接寫到說請身心調適價不得身領權傾獎那這件事情其實之前就有學生團體已經抗議過了那學生團體抗議過是希望說不要用這種非常懲罰式的好像代表說你就不鼓勵他們請身體調適價嘛他好像說你請了身心調適價"},{"start":326.38,"end":348.34,"text":"你要被懲罰那我不希望有這樣的意涵那當時他們教育部其實你沒有給過回應說全勤的標準制定是校園自治的一環你們又把問題丟給學校那事實上這個注意事項的辦法就是你們定的啊所以代表說在請生理假請生性調適假其實教育部是沒有跟學生站在一起的"},{"start":350.029,"end":376.209,"text":"好那跟委員報告身心調適假在高中的部分是從去年8月開始實施那委員所提及的是不是影響權情這也讓我們來跟學校溝通那這我們後續會再召開會議來討論好這個真的要拜託副署長那我還是要再次強調請生理假請身心調適假都不是學生的錯這個也不代表學生必須要去承擔這樣子的懲罰的性質的內容"},{"start":378.484,"end":400.892,"text":"所以呢如果要做到真正的校園友善拜託你們先幫學生排除這個相關的阻礙不要讓他們覺得說我為了要防止學生濫用所以你們把學生當賊去限制他們這些請假的規定那也希望真的做到讓他們請假的規則非常友善那來做學生的後盾好嗎好那這個好那次長可以嗎好這個再拜託你們謝謝"},{"start":410.54,"end":411.466,"text":"好,谢谢,谢谢黄"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":783,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（12時20分）謝謝主席、謝謝各位辛苦的同仁。今天是青年基本法的審查，是否先請次長？"],["主席：請次長。"],["黃委員捷：次長好。剛剛很多委員提到青年基本法的進度，次長其實也做了回應，這個會期確定會送出，是嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：院版這個會期應該會出來。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝，其實大家都在等進度，因為相信朝野對此都有共識，跨黨派也都有提案，總共18個提案，再加上院版，如果這個會期我們能夠把青年基本法順利三讀通過，相信對於臺灣所有的青年來說都是非常正面的消息，在此再次提醒，希望接下來的審查可以順利，教育部不要讓年輕人失望。","藉此機會我也想討論一些青年的權益，首先是生理假跟身心調適假的部分，我收到滿多學生的反映，他們說雖然教育部也是鼓勵大家，說請生理假不需要附證明，這一點是有做到了，但是很多學生在請生理假的時候其實還是會被刁難的。就我所知，目前有一些學校甚至沒有放入生理假的規定，當初我問教育部，教育部也說這其實是校園自治的範疇，甚至有些學校是把生理假併在病假的類型之下，換言之，你請生理假就必須扣到病假的額度，有些學校甚至是你請生理假的話就不能算全勤，即只要你請過一次生理假，全勤獎就絕對是沒有了。還有一些學校是，你請生理假而補考的話，不好意思，你的成績要打折，這是學校裡面實實在在所發生的事。就我所知，甚至還有的是請生理假的話，不好意思，成績七折起跳。這是目前校園裡頭實際發生的事，當我聽到時也覺得滿不可思議的，其實性別工作平等法在職場上有非常明確的規定，雇主不得要求勞工提交生理假之證明，亦不得影響全勤獎金，這是在職場上所規定的。但回到校園，沒想到我們校園如此的封閉、如此的退步，性平教育法裡面竟然沒有規定學校不可以刁難請生理假的學生，甚至也不能影響學生的全勤，這些都是沒有相關規範，導致一些學生即使想請生理假也不敢請，因為他會覺得自己會被懲罰，「我請生理假是我的錯嗎？」、「我生理期來，身心非常不適是我的錯嗎？」得知這個消息之後，我也認為我們教育部對於各個學校在執行保護學生上課權益這件事情的掌握度實在是太低了，雖然今天是次長來到這邊，有點可惜，那我還是希望說教育部可以承諾，有一些基本的底線，包括：請生理假不可以影響學生的全勤，然後請生理假也不可以影響學生的考試權益，而且請假的流程應該是要隱私而且非常友善的。這三個原則，我希望教育部可以做到，可以嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：委員，是否容我請國教署副署長來說明一下？"],["黃委員捷：好。"],["許副署長麗娟：跟委員報告，有關生理假的部分，在高中是已經明定了有這樣的假別，國民中小學的部分是縣市政府會納到他們自己所定的規定裡頭，只要是納進去在國民中學裡頭，事實上如果它同意他請生理假的話，就不會影響他的成績，因為它如果同意這個假別的話，補行評量的時候要以實得的分數來計算。但是在高中的部分，因為他們有學校的自主……"],["黃委員捷：沒錯，這就是我一直在說的，每次我跟教育部反映，教育部都說這個是學校的自主，但事實上就是有學生因此而受影響。所以我們希望教育部可以當學生的後盾嘛！"],["許副署長麗娟：對，剛有提及在國民中小學是不會有這個問題，那委員也有提及說是不是可以不影響他的全勤，那就讓我們跟縣市政府再做討論。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個要拜託副署長。","再來，另外一個身心假的部分，因為教育部現在有規定，在你們一個高等中學學校學生身心假實施注意事項，裡面的第十點竟然直接寫到說請身心調適假不得申領全勤獎。這件事情其實之前就有學生團體已經抗議過了，學生團體抗議的重點是希望說不要用這種非常懲罰式的方式，好像代表說你們就不鼓勵他們請身心調適假嘛，好像說我請了身心調適假就要被懲罰。我是不希望有這樣的意涵，當時教育部也有給過回應說：全勤的標準制定是校園自治的一環。即你們又把問題丟給學校，事實上這個注意事項的辦法就是你們訂的啊！代表說在請生理假、請身心調適假的部分，其實教育部是沒有跟學生站在一起的。"],["許副署長麗娟：好，跟委員報告，身心調適假在高中的部分是從去年8月開始實施，委員所提及的是不是影響全勤，這也讓我們來跟學校溝通，我們後續會再召開會議來討論。"],["黃委員捷：好，這個真的要拜託副署長，我還是要再次強調，請生理假、請身心調適假都不是學生的錯，這個也不代表學生必須要去承擔這樣子的懲罰性質的內容，所以如果要做到真正的校園友善，拜託你們先幫學生排除這個相關的阻礙，不要讓他們覺得說你們為了要防止學生濫用，所以就把學生當賊去限制他們這些請假的規定，也希望真的做到讓他們請假的規則非常友善，並作為學生的後盾，好嗎？"],["許副署長麗娟：我們努力。"],["黃委員捷：好，那次長可以嗎？這個再拜託你們，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員，次長請回。","我們接下來請林楚茵委員，林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","請邱志偉委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-2","speakers":["林宜瑾","黃捷","林楚茵","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","林德福","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","范雲","吳思瑤","邱志偉","陳培瑜","李坤城"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基\n本法草案」案；三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；四、審查委員吳思瑤等\n47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；六、\n審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法\n草案」案；八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；九、審查委員王美惠等17人\n擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十一、審\n查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十二、審查委員葛如鈞等19人擬具「青年基本\n法草案」案；十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十四、審查委員魯明哲\n等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；\n十六、審查委員葉元之等 20 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十七、審查委員林德福等 20 人擬具\n「青年發展基本法草案」案；十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案 (僅進行\n詢答)","agenda_id":"1142601_00009"}}},{"id":"159145","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159145","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f1d5cf022c0e04a07e83d902c8d6dd6c286f8ffab8834d983b0f568547c5b28c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:17:07 - 12:23:57","影片長度":"00:06:50","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:17:07+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:23:57+08:00","duration":410,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.61221875,"end":8.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.974718750000001,"end":9.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.41346875,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.26909375,"end":15.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.011593750000003,"end":16.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.20971875,"end":22.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.25159375,"end":20.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.922218750000003,"end":21.563468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.64346875,"end":25.562843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.90034375,"end":27.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.402218750000003,"end":29.039093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.190968750000003,"end":30.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.456593750000003,"end":31.890968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.27909375,"end":33.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.017218750000005,"end":35.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.447218750000005,"end":40.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.75034375,"end":41.087843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.087843750000005,"end":42.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.572843750000004,"end":46.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.087218750000005,"end":45.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.994093750000005,"end":47.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.04471875,"end":47.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.60159375,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.820968750000006,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.727843750000005,"end":62.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.99159375000001,"end":64.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.59034375,"end":78.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.82034375,"end":82.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.09409375,"end":82.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.63409375,"end":88.05096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.05096875000001,"end":88.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.50659375000001,"end":88.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.14784375,"end":94.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.07534375,"end":94.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.34534375000001,"end":95.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.91471875,"end":118.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.83096875000001,"end":119.23596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.43846875000001,"end":122.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.20159375,"end":123.87659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.01159375,"end":138.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.23284375,"end":140.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.54909375,"end":171.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.43034375000002,"end":172.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.24034375000002,"end":188.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.02909375000002,"end":174.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.20534375,"end":180.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.38659375,"end":181.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.41971875000002,"end":185.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.98034375,"end":189.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.11534375000002,"end":200.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.41034375,"end":191.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.52784375000002,"end":196.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.30784375000002,"end":204.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.29846875,"end":206.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.32346875000002,"end":214.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.86659375000002,"end":224.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.50221875000003,"end":237.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.76596875,"end":260.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.35659375,"end":240.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.78346875,"end":277.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.12471875,"end":268.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.30534375,"end":269.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.26284375,"end":271.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.26221875000005,"end":284.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.63659375000003,"end":288.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.76284375,"end":285.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.19284375,"end":287.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.79596875000004,"end":290.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.19659375000003,"end":304.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.85471875,"end":291.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.22096875,"end":296.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.99284375,"end":298.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.18659375000004,"end":300.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.76034375,"end":300.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.42221875,"end":307.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.45534375,"end":321.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.00596875,"end":353.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.92096875000004,"end":365.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.78159375,"end":353.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.55721875,"end":360.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.81346875,"end":369.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.67784375,"end":375.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.66846875000005,"end":383.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.72659375,"end":384.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.78096875,"end":391.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.90721875,"end":387.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.44659375000003,"end":398.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.18034375,"end":395.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.42471875,"end":403.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.52971875000003,"end":400.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.01471875000004,"end":401.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.22534375000004,"end":403.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.52909375,"end":410.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.03471875,"end":410.24534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.618,"end":8.382,"text":"好,謝謝,我請央行楊總裁請"},{"start":18.184,"end":46.454,"text":"這個總裁辛苦了那兩條問題請教一下總裁第一就是美國關稅美國關稅當然這個隨時都會變動它的關稅的政策不是那麼穩定那隨著總統他有每天可能有新的想法所以關稅政策當然不管怎麼樣對台灣的出口競爭力跟匯率一定會造成影響那你看南韓南韓就面臨到這個美國的關稅壓力所以都造成它韓元的低迷"},{"start":47.834,"end":73.842,"text":"還有一點點扁在亞洲的貨幣裡面它是相對比較弱勢那你高度依賴出口而且也沒有內需關稅又沒有辦法衝擊又沒有辦法降低那部分整體的這個因為關稅造成的這個整體的國家的GDP就會下降投資就會受到影響"},{"start":74.902,"end":99.509,"text":"從南韓經驗來看如果美國加徵關稅當然我們沒有辦法避免對我們出口跟整體經濟的影響那您覺得最壞的狀況台灣出口競爭力或者台灣的GDP會減少多少到目前為止我們還是在評估當中因為不確定性不過初步的估計我們到目前初步的估計我們是覺得"},{"start":101.509,"end":112.792,"text":"如果說按照我們這個報告也有談到啊就是說如果說他對額外的那四個那個對醫藥品、半導體特別是對我們的半導體因為我們半導體還有鋼鐵、鋁銅、汽車及零組件這個對我們的影響目前我們初步的評估是不會很大"},{"start":124.127,"end":138.375,"text":"那看樣子台積電去美國投資那麼高額然後時尚最大的一個投資額會不會因此就降低美國川普政府對台灣的晶片加收關稅的可能性"},{"start":140.636,"end":152.281,"text":"這個看起來好像後來他就改口了他好像川普好像也滿滿滿溢的樣子就是說他也佩服說台灣在這個領域方面的強項"},{"start":156.043,"end":168.137,"text":"所以川普有些時候我們就都沒有說真正的搞不過我是覺得他也應該算是對於我們的半凹體的產業他也是蠻佩服的"},{"start":172.381,"end":194.309,"text":"半導體有沒有加徵關稅那它整體而言它的關稅一定會比過去的這個前任政府更多嘛品項也更多所以再用我們以出國導向的這個經濟體來看那當然它的關稅政策一定會對台灣造成影響那台灣出國競爭力下降那當然我們的這個貨幣就會受到衝擊"},{"start":197.47,"end":214.118,"text":"會不會持續貶值如果持續貶值的話我跟委員報告就是說川普的我們說川普1.0川普1.0基本上呢事實上呢川普1.0他美中貿易衝突我們台灣是受力的"},{"start":214.932,"end":237.119,"text":"但是呢受益的是受益的是受益的但是呢川普2.0呢他的情況他就要賭那個缺口那缺口呢他就普遍性的那如果說是普遍性的話呢那事實上呢我個人啦當然啦我這個我們還是要study啦如果說普遍性的時候對每一個國家都是這樣子的時候呢那基本上呢"},{"start":237.859,"end":259.971,"text":"每個國家都是這樣子那也不是說只有針對我們台灣那如果說就半導體所以我們在十三頁這邊有講到半導體的這個部分因為我們直接出口到美國的那個直接出口到他那邊去的好像不多佔我們的GDP佔我們的出口的那個也就是說我們的曝險不高"},{"start":260.851,"end":267.897,"text":"相對其他國家對 不高所以目前他所公布的相關的不過我們也不能說他就是這樣子所以這個議題呢應該要密切的注意我是擔心啊 這關稅一旦這個"},{"start":279.945,"end":307.315,"text":"開徵會影響到我們出口競爭力出口競爭力是我的經濟的命脈我就是說出口的競爭力因為它是整個是全部它都關稅嘛它是普遍性的嘛是 謝謝那第二個問題想討論這個匯率啊那台積電到美國投資金額那麼大那資本當然一定外流那相關的這個產業鏈也都會過去啊這種情況這個央行有沒有穩定匯率的政策我事實上呢"},{"start":309.5,"end":320.928,"text":"台積電到那邊去投資一千億要增加一千億增加一千億事實上我們的外局就有去跟他們的財務處討論這個問題事實上他們說他們營收今年他們估計都有差不多一千億一千億美元不是台幣"},{"start":331.635,"end":354.671,"text":"然後你看看他一千億要投資那邊的話他是分四年這是第一個分四年一年是250億第二個他也可以在那邊籌資所以就他來講的話事實上也不會說是因為他要到我那邊投資所以他必須要在這邊買匯然後再出去影響到我們的YC我再用30秒我的問題是說你產業鏈過去當然在那邊生產當然也會有"},{"start":359.774,"end":375.428,"text":"那獲利會不會怎麼樣有政策的引導可以在這個回流台灣那當然就是說第一個他獲利然後呢就會回台灣這個也有可能這個也有可能"},{"start":375.708,"end":390.664,"text":"但是有沒有政策上的引導或者誘因讓他們整體獲利不會再繼續在投資你把獲利的這個這個他們的投資策略我不曉得所以說我不曉得我也只是能夠從報紙上看到就是說他要增加一千億的投資"},{"start":391.805,"end":397.369,"text":"這個我們只能夠這樣知道而已至於就是說這些細節的我相信這個樣行的決策能夠兼顧規律也能夠兼顧台灣出口競爭力把這個關稅的衝擊降到最低我對您是深具信心"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1220,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時17分）謝謝主席。我請央行楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：總裁辛苦了。有兩個問題要請教總裁，第一個就是美國關稅的問題，隨著他們的總統每天可能都有新的想法，美國的關稅政策隨時都會變動，不是那麼穩定，不管怎麼樣，美國的關稅政策對臺灣的出口競爭力跟匯率一定會造成影響。我們看南韓面臨到美國的關稅壓力，造成韓元的低迷，韓元一直在貶，在亞洲貨幣裡面，相對就比較弱勢。如果高度依賴出口，又沒有內需，關稅沒有辦法沖抵，又沒有辦法降低，關稅問題就會讓國家整體的GDP下降，投資、就業都會受到影響。從南韓的經驗來看，如果美國加徵關稅，我們當然也沒有辦法避免出口跟整體經濟受到影響。您覺得最壞的狀況，臺灣出口競爭力或者臺灣的GDP會減少多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：到目前為止，我們還在評估當中，因為還有不確定性嘛！不過在我們的這個報告也有談到，如果他對額外的那四個，包括醫藥品、半導體，特別是對我們的半導體，還有鋼、鐵、鋁、銅、汽車及零組件等等，對我們的影響，目前我們初步的評估是不會很大。"],["邱委員志偉：台積電去美國投資那麼高額，將是史上最大的投資額，會不會因此就降低川普政府對臺灣晶片加收關稅的可能性？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個看起來，好像後來他也就改口了，川普好像也滿滿意的樣子，他也佩服臺灣在這一個領域方面是強項，所以有些時候我們對川普也沒有辦法真正的了解；不過我覺得他對於我們的半導體產業，應該也算是滿佩服的。"],["邱委員志偉：不管半導體的產業有沒有加徵關稅，就整體而言，他的關稅一定會比前任的政府更多，品項也更多，所以在我們這種以出口導向的經濟體來看，他的關稅政策一定會對臺灣造成影響；臺灣出口競爭力下降，當然我們的貨幣就會受到衝擊，會不會持續貶值？如果持續貶值的話……"],["楊總裁金龍：不會，我跟委員報告，在川普1.0的時候，美中貿易衝突，我們臺灣是受益的，現在是川普2.0，他為了補那個缺口，那個缺口是普遍性的，我個人認為，我們當然還是要study，如果是普遍性的話，對每一個國家都是這樣子的時候，基本上每一個國家都這樣子……"],["邱委員志偉：就抵銷了……"],["楊總裁金龍：也不是只有針對我們臺灣；所以就半導體業來說，我們在第13頁有講到半導體的部分，因為我們直接出口到美國那邊去的量，占我們GDP、占我們的出口，好像不多，也就是我們的暴險不高……"],["邱委員志偉：相對其他國家？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，不高。"],["邱委員志偉：所以目前他所公布的相關的……"],["楊總裁金龍：不過，我們也不能說他就是這樣子……"],["邱委員志偉：不能太過樂觀。"],["楊總裁金龍：所以對這個議題，應該要密切的注意，密切的觀察。"],["邱委員志偉：我是擔心這個關稅一旦開徵，會影響到我們出口競爭力，出口競爭力是我們的經濟命脈。"],["楊總裁金龍：有關出口競爭力，因為他是全部都課關稅，是普遍性的。"],["邱委員志偉：謝謝。第二個問題想討論匯率的部分，台積電到美國投資的金額那麼大，資本當然已經外流了，相關的產業鏈也都會過去，央行針對這種情況有沒有穩定匯率的政策？"],["楊總裁金龍：台積電到那邊去投資要增加1,000億美元，事實上我們的外匯局也有去跟他們的財務處討論這個問題，他們估計今年的營收差不多有1,000億，1,000億是美元，不是臺幣。然後他的1,000億是分四年投資，一年是250億，這是第一點；第二點，他也可以在那邊籌資，所以就他來講，不會因為他要到那邊投資，就必須在這邊買匯，然後再出去，而影響到我們的外匯市場。"],["邱委員志偉：了解。我再用30秒問一個問題，產業鏈過去那邊生產，當然會有獲利，是不是有怎麼樣的政策引導，可以讓獲利回流臺灣？"],["楊總裁金龍：那當然了，第一個他的獲利就匯回臺灣，這個也有可能啦……"],["邱委員志偉：但是有沒有政策上的引導或者誘因，讓他們整體獲利不會在那邊再繼續投資，把獲利的這個部分匯回臺灣……"],["楊總裁金龍：這個是他們的投資策略，說實在話，我也不曉得，我也只能從報紙上看到，他要增加1,000億的投資，我們只能夠這樣知道而已。至於那些細節，我們中央銀行……"],["邱委員志偉：我相信央行的決策能夠兼顧匯率，也能夠兼顧臺灣出口競爭力，把這個關稅的衝擊降到最低，我對您是深具信心。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員的質詢。","下一位楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","葉元之、葉元之、葉元之委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","報告委員會，今天登記發言的委員已經全部詢答完畢。現在有一個臨時提案，我先請教提案的王委員，因為你剛剛質詢的時候，已經提到了，楊總裁也已經口頭答應了，這裡面所有的會議紀錄都是公開的，而且是有效的，他已經承諾要給你，現在這個案子，因為人數不夠，我們就是楊總裁口頭上答應，這樣可以嗎？"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-2","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","黃珊珊","林思銘","李坤城","王世堅","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","邱志偉","陳冠廷","李柏毅"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00004"}}},{"id":"159144","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159144","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f82efe7fc748c22dffc7dc3b86466824c86f8ffab8834d98321b00f39ec1a9b485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"12:04:22 - 12:21:48","影片長度":"00:17:26","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:04:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:21:48+08:00","duration":1046,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.60471875,"end":3.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.19846875,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.20659375,"end":11.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.484718750000003,"end":22.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.71096875,"end":25.883468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.54159375,"end":30.355343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.827843750000003,"end":31.890968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.992218750000006,"end":33.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.915968750000005,"end":35.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.31221875,"end":36.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.73409375,"end":41.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.471593750000004,"end":44.462843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.64846875,"end":47.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.87159375,"end":49.103468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.49159375,"end":49.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.031593750000006,"end":56.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.875343750000006,"end":51.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.064093750000005,"end":59.954093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.392843750000004,"end":64.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.13909375,"end":68.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.76284375,"end":69.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.33221875000001,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.14159375,"end":76.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.76159375,"end":78.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.11159375000001,"end":78.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.22971875,"end":85.30034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.84034375,"end":88.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.75971875,"end":88.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.19846875,"end":98.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.47971875,"end":98.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.66534375,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.03659375000001,"end":104.87534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.12846875000001,"end":113.12721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.56596875000001,"end":121.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.23971875000001,"end":123.01596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.58971875,"end":125.36159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.59784375000001,"end":130.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.79534375,"end":138.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.04721875,"end":140.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.41409375,"end":140.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.66284375,"end":143.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.32909375,"end":146.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.25284375,"end":149.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.28596875000002,"end":152.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.55971875,"end":156.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.39034375,"end":160.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.90034375000002,"end":167.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.63346875000002,"end":173.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.60284375,"end":175.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.74596875,"end":180.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.18409375000002,"end":181.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.89284375000003,"end":189.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.38096875000002,"end":196.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.97909375,"end":198.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.35846875000001,"end":205.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.93971875000003,"end":206.36159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.01971875,"end":209.33159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.82096875000002,"end":212.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.31409375,"end":215.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.40659375,"end":218.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.64659375000002,"end":221.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.12284375000002,"end":224.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.80596875,"end":225.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.62409375000001,"end":230.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.47596875000002,"end":233.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.08284375000002,"end":238.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.11596875,"end":242.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.64284375000003,"end":245.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.10221875000002,"end":252.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.15596875000003,"end":255.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.75471875000002,"end":258.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.87659375000004,"end":261.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.71159375,"end":262.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.94346875,"end":265.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.40284375000005,"end":267.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.71471875000003,"end":269.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.08159375,"end":282.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.31159375000004,"end":284.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.13409375000003,"end":285.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.58971875000003,"end":286.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.43346875000003,"end":287.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.37846875,"end":290.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.63096875,"end":297.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.65534375000004,"end":303.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.23659375,"end":306.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.47659375,"end":307.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.62409375000004,"end":314.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.16721875,"end":324.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.95909375,"end":327.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.65909375,"end":328.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.76846875,"end":331.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.09721875,"end":336.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.31596875,"end":336.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.02471875000003,"end":338.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.96534375000005,"end":365.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.98221875,"end":376.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.39409375,"end":388.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.02096875,"end":391.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.77971875000003,"end":395.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.31096875000003,"end":411.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.42221875,"end":416.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.50596875,"end":417.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.88971875000004,"end":423.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.50471875000005,"end":431.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.57096875,"end":434.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.32159375000003,"end":438.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.48971875,"end":439.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.33346875,"end":442.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.10096875000005,"end":445.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.73346875000004,"end":448.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.33221875000004,"end":449.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.22221875,"end":453.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.76596875,"end":455.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.29721875,"end":456.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.34346875000006,"end":462.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.11471875,"end":467.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.26159375000003,"end":468.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.97034375000004,"end":481.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.21784375000004,"end":478.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.94721875000005,"end":482.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.23409375000006,"end":483.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.02721875000003,"end":490.70534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.12721875000005,"end":492.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.62909375000004,"end":495.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.41346875000005,"end":499.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.76721875000004,"end":501.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.39971875000003,"end":507.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.27659375,"end":510.14534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.02284375000005,"end":513.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.11096875,"end":515.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.81534375,"end":519.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.3547187500001,"end":523.0209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.4765937500001,"end":534.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.78284375,"end":535.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.9640937500001,"end":537.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.05659375,"end":539.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.0984687499999,"end":541.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.25846875,"end":542.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.4565937500001,"end":549.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.6115937500001,"end":555.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.62346875,"end":561.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.66471875,"end":563.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.8415937500001,"end":565.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.88346875,"end":568.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.54971875,"end":569.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.2878437500001,"end":572.9540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.47721875,"end":574.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.31659375,"end":577.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.0503437500001,"end":583.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.17596875,"end":590.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.0947187500001,"end":593.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.13221875,"end":594.6047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.80721875,"end":599.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.46471875,"end":606.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.77159375,"end":611.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.55971875,"end":614.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.2765937500001,"end":618.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.7022187499999,"end":622.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.7859687499999,"end":625.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.7178437499999,"end":632.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.8772187500001,"end":637.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.45034375,"end":642.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.93471875,"end":648.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.4865937500001,"end":653.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.8359687500001,"end":656.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.0590937500001,"end":657.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.95346875,"end":660.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.6028437500001,"end":662.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.20159375,"end":664.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.75409375,"end":666.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.7578437500001,"end":677.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.3259687500001,"end":679.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.05534375,"end":682.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.3547187500001,"end":686.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.92784375,"end":688.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.48034375,"end":689.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.18471875,"end":694.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.42034375,"end":697.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.93034375,"end":702.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.80721875,"end":705.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.0303437500002,"end":710.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":710.3334687500001,"end":712.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.9153437500001,"end":716.4084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.9990937500002,"end":717.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.19721875,"end":719.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.8972187500001,"end":721.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":722.4328437500001,"end":724.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.81221875,"end":725.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.9765937500001,"end":727.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.00159375,"end":737.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.2747187500001,"end":735.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":735.59534375,"end":736.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.12659375,"end":746.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.6828437500001,"end":742.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.88534375,"end":743.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":747.1884687500001,"end":751.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":751.39034375,"end":753.3815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.3940937500001,"end":765.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":765.16034375,"end":767.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":768.1640937500001,"end":773.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":774.0872187500001,"end":774.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":775.4878437500001,"end":776.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":776.93909375,"end":784.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":784.71846875,"end":789.8484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":790.15221875,"end":793.6453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.7297187500001,"end":795.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":795.53534375,"end":797.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":797.72909375,"end":800.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":801.25596875,"end":802.2178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":803.0109687500001,"end":804.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":804.8503437500001,"end":807.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":808.29284375,"end":813.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":813.54096875,"end":817.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":817.7765937500001,"end":823.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":823.9697187500001,"end":831.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":831.76596875,"end":832.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":833.1159687500001,"end":834.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":834.34784375,"end":837.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":838.11096875,"end":838.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":839.56221875,"end":841.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":841.8572187500001,"end":847.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":847.96596875,"end":849.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":849.82221875,"end":856.6397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":856.6397187500002,"end":857.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":857.70284375,"end":862.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":857.80409375,"end":857.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":862.8328437500002,"end":865.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":865.8872187500001,"end":868.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":868.06409375,"end":886.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":868.1484687500001,"end":868.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":886.4072187500001,"end":886.5759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":886.5759687500001,"end":887.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":887.4028437500001,"end":892.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":893.0559687500001,"end":893.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":894.23721875,"end":895.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":895.5872187500001,"end":902.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":903.36659375,"end":908.3784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":908.98596875,"end":916.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":917.0690937500001,"end":933.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":934.14659375,"end":936.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":936.6440937500001,"end":940.1709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":940.77846875,"end":943.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":943.9678437500002,"end":950.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":950.48159375,"end":954.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":954.53159375,"end":980.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":980.2490937500002,"end":980.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":980.6540937500001,"end":985.4634687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":985.8684687500001,"end":986.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":987.1172187500001,"end":990.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":990.57659375,"end":991.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":991.5047187500002,"end":992.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":992.97284375,"end":993.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":994.10346875,"end":1000.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1001.27534375,"end":1005.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1005.86534375,"end":1019.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1019.1628437500001,"end":1022.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1022.9765937500001,"end":1034.2828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1032.3253437500002,"end":1044.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1043.2434687500001,"end":1044.3572187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.606,"end":0.646,"text":"我們請次長"},{"start":12.52,"end":35.306,"text":"我想今天在座的官員裡面應該擔任過檢察官的有快十位那次長你也是我以前檢查實習的時候的導師所以我在這邊先提一個東西就是說雖然剛剛有提到那個北檢的檢察官去詢問這個審慶金的事情但是因為本案已經起訴了"},{"start":36.905,"end":56.653,"text":"本來已經起訴了那現在審理的是台北電商法院那他的主管機關是司法院所以這個案子我們在討論並沒有干涉個案的問題我想次長這個我這樣講有沒有問題因為他已經現在已經不屬於偵查階段了嘛那就這個案子的部分其實是就"},{"start":58.486,"end":74.511,"text":"個案的事情我們來去討論出檢查體系裡面通案的一個毛病所以我想說如果有一些人他一直講說這什麼就個案討論這個我想說他們可能對於這個檢查體系以及對於刑訴訟法其實是搞不太清楚所以才會講這樣子的話"},{"start":76.792,"end":104.059,"text":"好 那我想說 社長我以前是老師嘛那以前我們在實習的時候也有跟我們講說不可以私下跟當事人見面 跟當事人接觸那個社長這個有沒有問題當然我們相關的檢察官論理規範有做一些我們品味上的要求跟職務上要求啦那私底下跟當事人接觸當然是 私下當然是不妥好 謝謝 好那所以呢 其實我還是這麼認為啦就是正常的開庭"},{"start":106,"end":121.478,"text":"全程錄音錄影這是有它的必要性那所以說在蔡清強部長的時候因為當時有爆發一個王育文的案子就是高鴻安那個案子的他的一個其中一位被告那王育文他有16分鐘的錄音"},{"start":122.421,"end":148.466,"text":"沒有錄影所以後來又衍生出就是這個當事人指控說檢察官在那16分鐘裡面對他恐嚇了什麼事情所以當時蔡部長他就要求全國的那個地檢署在開庭的時候一定要記得全程錄音錄影那今天呢北檢的這位檢察官他到他到醫院去看那個住院的沈靜菁其實"},{"start":150.539,"end":175.094,"text":"今天北檢的新聞稿我個人覺得不太能接受因為在座我剛剛有說有快十位都是檢察官出身的官員那好像只有一位其別比我淺其他每一位其別都比我深一定比我更了解檢查體系的運作我想以前我們在辦案子的時候如果我要了解這個被告適不適合來開庭我會函詢醫院"},{"start":176.752,"end":197.4,"text":"我不會像北檢所說的去視察被告的健康狀況這非常的罕見 什麼叫做視察被告的健康狀況你檢察官去那邊看了被告幾眼 你就可以確定他能不能夠應訊嘛所以正常的做法 我們一定要含詢 而且把相關資料全部留在卷證裡面避免糾紛所以北檢的這個"},{"start":199.543,"end":225.629,"text":"記者會的這個論述我真的覺得是騙外行人可以但是你自己在座這麼多警察官出身的我想不太會有人去視察被告的身體狀況這種事情更何況你也不是醫生你不可能用眼睛看你就知道這是第一個我對於北檢的這個新聞稿我持平的來說我個人不認同這個新聞稿的這個說辭那我反而覺得這有一點是在"},{"start":227.859,"end":244.83,"text":"有點是在硬凹啦那我今天是這樣我沒有說要去打擊司法或打擊北京我只是希望說我做的每一件事情都能夠讓人民對司法的信任度能夠更高那蔣阿關到場去如果說他是"},{"start":246.158,"end":267.674,"text":"必須到醫院去就訊或者是做臨時偵查庭的詢問我覺得這個也無可厚非但是如果這樣的話真的不適宜說你在現場兩個多小時就錄影只有幾分鐘那你中間跟被告的談話這個是很奇怪的嘛"},{"start":268.889,"end":290.124,"text":"我想說老師你以前也不會這樣教我說在跟被告開庭之前我們先來跟他溝通個兩個小時溝通的被告講的差不多了那我們再來錄音錄影我想老師你也不會這樣教我來詢問被告所以我們以前開庭的時候就是全程的錄音錄影"},{"start":291.707,"end":313.227,"text":"其實我從頭到尾我都沒有說沈慶金或他的律師指控一定是真的我只是說因為有這個空白的存在反而讓檢察官被更多的質疑其實沒有必要去躺這個渾水你今天第一個你去醫院看他如果你要臨時偵查庭你要去詢問也沒問題嘛你就從頭錄到尾"},{"start":316.226,"end":330.796,"text":"你看你進去你不可能從一進去就開始錄但是如果在現場兩個小時你錄了一個小時半或一個小時四分鐘我覺得大家可以接受就你兩個小時只錄了幾分鐘我想這就是問題而且如果檢察官"},{"start":332.433,"end":361.393,"text":"這麼做也很容易被當事人見縫查證所以我不知道市長您的想法怎麼樣跟委員報告啦我們順法規定是詢問被告時要前程原則上前程錄音錄影嘛他是詢問被告那現在就要定性什麼是詢問嘛那如果說在我們偵查庭裡面當然一進入我們偵查庭我們就開始詢問這是沒有問題所以前程錄音錄影沒有問題他在基本上他現在是在偵查庭外的庭外的是不是所謂有臨時偵查庭的問題那他就沒有辦法"},{"start":362.693,"end":391.573,"text":"當下立刻就馬上的錄音錄影所以他他的這個開始進入詢問的時間到底是什麼時間點這時候必須要北檢他必須要對外說明然後個案去判斷詢問我們就應該錄音錄影他那北檢他當然發布發表新聞稿說他前面那一段還沒有進入還沒有進入這個詢問的過程嘛所以這基本上這個問題的根結就是我們98條那個詢問的時間點的定性的問題市長我認同所以我剛剛講的很清楚嘛我說"},{"start":393.153,"end":411.538,"text":"臨時偵查廳他不可能從頭開始錄所以如果你在現場兩小時你如果一個小時半一個小時四十分鐘我覺得都可以接受的範圍我剛剛有講這一段因為我總是從寬去認定因為我那個體系出來我不會像外行人一樣吹毛球似的要求檢查官去做一些實務上不可能的事那我的意思只是說"},{"start":412.458,"end":423.247,"text":"因為你在現場那麼久但是你只錄了幾分鐘結果你現在被當事人的律師講說你這段時間你還跟我講說柯文哲是壞人你要咬他什麼之類的"},{"start":424.537,"end":448.74,"text":"那這樣子檢察官百口莫辯如果今天檢察官是有委屈但是他也百口莫辯啊但這個事情發生對司法就是一個傷害所以我個人是這樣說啦我還是一樣我個性還是這樣我怎麼樣我就憑良心說話我們自己在當檢察官的時候我們都很清楚真的沒有所謂的視察倍高狀健康狀況"},{"start":450.273,"end":466.607,"text":"或是你簡單去了解一下10分鐘離開 OK但是你今天去兩個多小時還在那邊跟他討論案情而且是沒有在錄音錄影也沒有製作筆錄的情況下這樣我真的覺得不妥啦我不知道次長您覺得這樣做是正確的嗎"},{"start":469.892,"end":490.288,"text":"就這個涉及到法律的解釋個案事實的狀況我們當然也尊重北檢新聞說明那我也尊重委員剛剛就法律上見解的闡述那我基本上這個就是對我們詢問的定性的問題那沒關係喔我知道市長您的意思啦就是你認為說詢問如果依照檢察官的說法那詢問就是最後那幾分鐘"},{"start":491.169,"end":509.551,"text":"但是如果這樣的話前面兩個多小時的時間雖然有書記官以及律師在場但我覺得這跟檢察官私下跟當事人接觸有什麼不同沒有錄音沒有錄影沒有做筆錄那我私下跟你聊案情然後叫你要認罪這跟私下接觸有什麼不一樣所以我真的認為說"},{"start":511.212,"end":539.018,"text":"不管怎麼樣我認為這個行為是不宜我沒有說檢察官百分之百違法因為我不知道當時他們講了什麼但是我覺得完全不宜再多幾次這樣其實對司法傷害更重為什麼我今天會提這個其實之前有一個案子張立善縣長的案子他在2022年選縣長的時候就有雲林的調查官去發生教唆政人偽證後來這個調查官也被"},{"start":540.208,"end":562.646,"text":"起訴被送懲戒所以我們今天要做的是我們盡量要求這些司法人員他在錄音錄影的情況下去去做詢問詢問等等的行為其實就是要避免這個情況發生所以既然有那個調查官這麼做那你今天北檢的檢察官帶頭這麼做我真的覺得這是完全不對的"},{"start":563.888,"end":581.998,"text":"更何況你今天你在偵辦的是一個高度受矚目的案件如果你今天小案子有一些程序上的瑕疵我想每個人幾十年的檢察官生涯難免會有但是這個這麼高度政治性的案件高度受矚目的案件你還這樣做"},{"start":584.229,"end":610.466,"text":"沒有啦我還是覺得這個對檢方的傷害是不小啦單就這件事情上面更何況我在這邊跟各位報告的我真的我以前對於被告的身體狀況怎麼樣我們都是含尋醫院醫院回函給我們的我們依據醫院專業的判斷給我們我們來認定他有沒有辦法接受訓問我們真的不會去用檢察官的眼睛去視察被告的身體狀況其實這是"},{"start":612.728,"end":624.659,"text":"這是荒謬的一個這個新聞稿覺得是荒謬啦是幫檢察官解套這個我想長官都會這麼做幫忙下屬去解套但是這講出去專業的人聽到或律師聽到其實會覺得"},{"start":626.795,"end":641.641,"text":"是還蠻可笑的啦所以這部分我想我們就做這樣因為我今天講的是因為總是由個案發現問題才能去解決通案的問題嘛那這件又是已經起訴院方審理中所以沒有干涉個案我想這個以後"},{"start":643.001,"end":666.612,"text":"因為我們如果不把這件事講清楚我跟人家晚上又有人要扣帽子說我們在干涉個案所以我講很清楚這件已經起訴了沒有干涉個案的問題那我也麻煩說部裡面一定要特別告訴檢察官你在出去開臨時偵查庭的時候你盡量能夠全程錄影那如果真的有一些"},{"start":667.833,"end":678.913,"text":"而現實上的困難的話那至少你不要說時間差那麼多兩個多小時就錄個五分鐘那個可能很容易就會遇到見風差針的一些狀況"},{"start":682.97,"end":703.465,"text":"那次長 我想說剛剛的問題是是這樣我也再提一個 其實我們去就訓的時候 你像警察在外面執行都有密錄器全程錄影他們也是避免這個狀況 各說各話的狀況發生那如果我們因為臨時偵查庭去就訓 然後我們又說有一些現實上的困難我90%的時間都不能錄 其實這個講出去"},{"start":706.067,"end":726.318,"text":"民眾可能不會接受更何況現在手機什麼都可以錄影還是要自保啦我現在就提一個很簡單的問題我想請教一下法務部今年的總預算比去年多多少三減後大概多了12億多"},{"start":728.055,"end":751.989,"text":"那我想說多12億多因為那一天那個總諮詢的時候因為總超說19億啦那你們說12億那是不是三除後折對對對那不管怎麼樣我想說多了12億多的預算當然他可能用在不同的科目可是因為這段時間很多檢察官跟我講說部裡面有一些告訴他們一些事譬如說什麼用電怎麼樣或是一些這種宣傳我覺得"},{"start":754.631,"end":765.628,"text":"其實各部會這段時間的錢真的多很多就是我們有抓出來這一次總預算 國家總預算比去年多了1368億"},{"start":768.483,"end":796.797,"text":"不是像我們之前說800多因為主計總數給我們資料之後我們整個核算說原來是今年通過的總預算比去年多了1368億那法務部也多了十幾億那像這個情況下說真的你要是還是一直在那邊扯說什麼用電怎麼樣衛生紙怎麼樣用水怎麼樣其實我覺得講久了這個也不好聽而且我在這邊跟各位報告一個點其實我一直很想說一句話因為"},{"start":797.937,"end":816.61,"text":"這段時間有一堆地方的民意代表甚至包括中央的立法委員都在造謠說人民什麼補貼會拿不到什麼租屋補貼育兒津貼都會拿不到因為我們刪了預算但我在這邊跟各位報告不會拿不到因為那個預算沒有刪"},{"start":817.833,"end":838.564,"text":"那完全沒有刪啦 那他之前就是造謠那接下來大家也一定還會領得到 因為該發而不發 公務員有一流客扣罪嘛我想沒有一個公務員敢該發而不發 因為這刑法上面就構成犯罪但是我們現在看到是政治人物在前面拼命的造謠騙國人但是我跟"},{"start":839.608,"end":862.049,"text":"在座各位以及跟國人保證沒有刪除的東西就是會發出來因為公務員沒有不發的權利除非你本身資格身體資格不符合否則沒有不發的權利不然會構成一流客扣罪我想次長這個沒有問題吧對 憲法有這個法律所以有這個法律那我也這邊通告全國公務員不要因為立場而去"},{"start":862.89,"end":887.482,"text":"配合的那些政客在那邊胡說八道搞鬼該發的東西就要發否則一定會構成犯罪跟委員需要補充一下其實我們多12億多他其實是多在人事費啦我們相關費用因為我們今年增額了151人相關的人事費還有相關的這個晉級的費用就12億多所以本部私資上他的金額是沒有增加他是增加人事費的部分今天大概是這個"},{"start":888.682,"end":902.338,"text":"我可以了解啦因為我剛有說不同的科目但是呢過去運作得了但是現在卻跟我們講一些比較低階的沒水沒電沒衛生紙或甚至經常門的東西也拿出來"},{"start":903.419,"end":927.059,"text":"做文章我不是說法國部啦連經常門的東西都可以拿出來做文章我真的覺得說多了是自己丟臉的因為那個你說那個東西那不會受影響啊那呃再我再跟那個次長報告一件事就是呃接下來我可能會比較注意到AI書類系統的那個部分因為呢過去三年我們花了3169萬2千元的經費其實花非常多錢在AI的書類系統"},{"start":930.982,"end":954.231,"text":"那將來我可能會去考察AI的書類系統它的成效如何 運作狀況如何以及上個會期我們希望說能夠有檢察官的對於這個系統的滿意度的調查報告因為他們才是使用者 那請他們給我們這個調查報告那這個部分再麻煩部裡面能夠幫忙我到時候可能會排一些考察"},{"start":955.111,"end":980.085,"text":"我們現在在桃園台中已經示範了一陣子了那新北跟台北也在去年開始示範那未來考察的話到時可以到比較桃園或台中這種示範比較久的地檢署來看他目前的成效那另外委員有提到他在使用的回饋機制那事實上我們也要求我們希望地檢署使用之後有一些好的不好的我們都有一個會議來請他們表達意見給我們一些建議"},{"start":980.745,"end":1002.766,"text":"好 次長最後又麻煩你們能夠就這個北檢這個這個沈慶慶這個到醫院去問這可不可以法務部能夠訂出一個檢察官去臨時偵查庭去就訓的時候是不是應該有一些注意事項能請法務部能夠做一個統一的規定那避免說還有這樣的狀況發生因為這個狀況發生"},{"start":1005.902,"end":1023.949,"text":"也許檢察官說在這一波社會的攻擊上面受到委屈啦因為有可能檢察官都沒講過這個可是就是因為空白的存在或是像王玉文那個案子16分鐘沒有錄影空白的存在那就人家就可以講你很多了就很多無限的想像空間好"},{"start":1024.409,"end":1042.302,"text":"那這個要不要另外定一個要點我們再研議那倒是可以考慮看看在我們執行的相關的要點裡面某一條裡面做一個提示性的規範我想說徹底的解決這個問題然後開庭全程錄音錄影也麻煩法務部這邊一定要通告檢察官一定要落實這是法律規定謝謝市長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1307,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時4分）謝謝，請次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：次長好。我想今天在座的官員裡面擔任過檢察官的應該有快十位，次長也是我以前檢察實習時候的導師。我在這邊先提一個東西，剛剛有提到北檢檢察官去詢問沈慶京的事情，因為本案已經起訴了，現在審理的是臺北地方法院，主管機關是司法院，所以我們討論這個案子並沒有干涉個案的問題。次長，我這樣講有沒有問題？"],["黃次長謀信：尊重委員的質詢。"],["吳委員宗憲：因為它現在已經不屬於偵查階段了，那就這個案子的部分，其實我們是就個案的事情討論檢察體系裡面通案的毛病，所以如果有一些人一直講這是就個案討論，我想他們可能是對於檢察體系以及刑事訴訟法搞不太清楚，所以才會講這樣子的話。次長是我以前的老師，也有在以前我們實習的時候跟我們說過，不可以私下跟當事人見面，跟當事人接觸，次長，這個有沒有問題？"],["黃次長謀信：相關的檢察官論理規範當然有對我們做一些品位上跟職務上的要求，私底下跟當事人接觸當然是不妥。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝！其實我還是認為正常的開庭全程錄音錄影，這是有它的必要性，在蔡清祥擔任部長的時候，當時有爆發一個王郁文的案子，就是高虹安那個案子其中一位被告，那個案子是偵訊王郁文時有16分鐘沒有錄影，後來又衍生出當事人指控檢察官在那16分鐘裡面對他恐嚇了什麼事情，所以當時蔡部長就要求全國的地檢署在開庭的時候一定要記得全程錄音錄影。今天是北檢的檢察官到醫院去看住院的沈慶京，其實對於今天北檢發的新聞稿，我個人覺得不太能接受，因為我剛剛有說在座各位有將近10位都是檢察官出身的官員，其中好像只有一位的期別比我淺，其他每一位的期別都比我深，一定比我更瞭解檢察體系的運作。以前我們在辦案的時候，如果我要瞭解這個被告適不適合來開庭，我會函詢醫院，不會像北檢所說的去視察被告的健康狀況，這個非常罕見，什麼叫做「視察被告的健康狀況」？檢察官去那邊看了被告幾眼就可以確定他能不能夠應訊嗎？正常的作法是我們一定會函詢，而且把相關資料全部留在卷證裡面，避免糾紛，所以北檢記者會的這個論述，我真的覺得這騙外行人可以，但是在座那麼多檢察官出身的，我想不太會有去視察被告的身體狀況這種事情，更何況你也不是醫生，不可能只用眼睛看就知道，這是第一點。對於北檢的新聞稿，持平的來說，我個人不認同新聞稿的說辭，反而覺得有一點是在硬拗。我今天沒有說要去打擊司法或打擊北檢，只是希望我做的每一件事情都能夠讓人民對於司法的信任度更高。檢察官到場，如果他必須到醫院去就訊或者是做臨時偵查庭的訊問，我覺得這也無可厚非，但如果是這樣的話真的不適宜，你在現場兩個多小時結果錄影只有幾分鐘，那你中間跟被告的談話時間這麼久，這個是很奇怪的嘛！老師以前也不會教我，在跟被告開庭之前先來跟他溝通個兩個小時，等被告講得差不多了，我們再來錄音錄影，我想老師也不會這樣教我來訊問被告嘛！我們以前開庭的時候就是全程的錄音錄影，其實我從頭到尾都沒有說沈慶京或他的律師的指控一定是真的，我只是說因為有這個空白的存在，反而讓檢察官受到更多的質疑，其實沒有必要去淌這個渾水。第一個是你去醫院看他，如果是要開臨時偵查庭去訊問他也沒問題，你就從頭錄到尾，當然你不可能從一進去就開始錄，如果你在現場兩個小時，錄了一個半小時或1小時40分鐘，我覺得大家還可以接受，但是你這兩個小時只錄了幾分鐘，我想這就是問題，而且如果檢察官這麼做，也很容易被當事人見縫插針。不知道次長的想法是怎麼樣？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，訴訟法規定訊問被告時原則上要全程錄音錄影，這是指「訊問」被告，那現在就要定性什麼是「訊問」，如果是在偵查庭裡面，當然一進入偵查庭就開始訊問，這個沒有問題，所以全程錄音錄影也沒有問題。但現在是在偵查庭外，是不是所謂有臨時偵查庭的問題，那就沒有辦法進去當下立刻就錄音錄影，所以開始進入訊問的到底是什麼時間點，這時候北檢必須要對外說明，個案去判斷。若是訊問，我們就應該錄音錄影，北檢當然也發了新聞稿說，前面那一段還沒有進入訊問的過程，基本上這個問題的根結就是訴訟法第九十八條訊問時間點定性的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：我認同次長所說，所以我剛剛講得很清楚，臨時偵查庭不可能從頭開始錄，如果你在現場兩小時，錄了一個小時半或一個小時四十分鐘，我覺得都在可以接受的範圍，我剛剛有講這一段，我總是從寬去認定，因為我是從那個體系出來的，不會像外行人一樣吹毛求疵的要求檢察官去做一些實務上不可能的事。我的意思只是因為你在現場那麼久，卻只錄了幾分鐘，結果你現在被當事人的律師說你在這段時間還跟他講「柯文哲是壞人，你要咬他」什麼之類的，這樣變成檢察官百口莫辯，即便今天檢察官有委屈也百口莫辯啊！可是發生這個事情對司法就是一個傷害，所以我個人是這樣說，我的個性還是這樣，我就是憑良心說話，我們自己在當檢察官的時候都很清楚，真的沒有所謂的視察被告健康狀況，或者你只是簡單的去瞭解一下，10分鐘就離開，那OK，但是你今天去了兩個多小時，還在那邊跟他討論案情，而且是在沒有錄音錄影也沒有製作筆錄的情況下，這樣子我真的覺得不妥啦！次長覺得這樣做是正確的嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，這個涉及到法律的解釋、個案事實狀況，我們當然尊重北檢新聞說明，我也尊重委員剛剛對法律上見解的闡述，基本上這個就是對訊問定性的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道次長的意思了，就是你認為如果依照檢察官的說法，訊問就是最後那幾分鐘，但如果是這樣的話，前面兩個多小時的時間，雖然有書記官與律師在場，但我覺得這跟檢察官私下跟當事人接觸有什麼不同？沒有錄音、沒有錄影、沒有做筆錄，我私下跟你聊案情，然後叫你要認罪，這跟私下接觸有什麼不一樣？我真的認為不管怎麼樣，這個行為不宜。我沒有說檢察官100%違法，因為我不知道當時他們講了什麼，但是我覺得完全不宜，再多幾次這樣的事情，其實對司法傷害更重。","為什麼我今天會提這個？其實之前有一個張麗善縣長的案子，她在2022年選縣長的時候，就發生雲林的調查官教唆證人做偽證的事情，後來這個調查官也被起訴送懲戒，所以我們今天要做的是，儘量要求這些司法人員在有錄音錄影的情況下去進行訊問、詢問等等行為，其實目的就是要避免這個情況發生，之前有調查官這麼做，今天北檢的檢察官帶頭這麼做，我真的覺得這是完全不對的。更何況今天偵辦的是一個高度受矚目的案件，如果今天辦的是小案子，有一些程序上的瑕疵，我想這在每個人幾十年的檢察官生涯中在所難免，但這個是這麼高度政治性的案件、高度受矚目的案件，你還這樣做。我還是覺得單就這件事情來說，對檢方的傷害不小，更何況我再跟各位報告一遍，以前要知道被告的身體狀況怎麼樣，我們都是函詢醫院，醫院回函給我們，我們再依據醫院給的專業判斷來認定他有沒有辦法接受訊問，真的不會用檢察官的眼睛去視察被告的身體狀況，我覺得這個新聞稿是荒謬的，是幫檢察官解套，我想長官都會這麼做，幫忙下屬去解套，但是這講出去，專業的人聽到或律師聽到其實會覺得還滿可笑的。這個部分我想我們就講到這裡，我今天講的是因為總是由個案發現問題才能去解決通案的問題，這件又是已經起訴、院方審理中的案子，所以沒有干涉個案問題，我們如果不把這件事講清楚，晚上又有人要扣帽子說我們在干涉個案。我講得很清楚，這件已經起訴了，沒有干涉個案的問題，我也麻煩部裡面一定要特別告訴檢察官，在出去開臨時偵查庭的時候，儘量能夠全程錄影，如果真的有一些現實上的困難，那至少不要說時間差那麼多，兩個多小時就錄個5分鐘，那個可能很容易就會遇到見縫插針的一些狀況。我想剛剛的問題是這樣，我也提出一點，其實我們去就訊的時候，比如警察在外面執行勤務，都有密錄器全程錄影，他們也是為了避免各說各話的狀況發生，那如果我們因為臨時偵查庭去就訊，卻又說有一些現實上的困難，90%的時間都不能錄，其實這個講出去，民眾可能不會接受，更何況現在手機、什麼都可以錄影，還是要自保啦！","接下來我要提一個很簡單的問題，請教一下法務部今年的總預算比去年多多少？"],["黃次長謀信：刪減後大概多了十二億多。"],["吳委員宗憲：那天總質詢的時候說差不多19億元，你們說12億元。"],["黃次長謀信：刪除後是12億元。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，但不管怎麼樣，總是多了十二億多的預算，當然它可能用在不同的科目，可是這段時間，很多檢察官跟我說，部裡有告訴他們一些事，譬如說什麼用電怎麼樣或是一些這種宣傳，其實各部會這段時間的錢真的多很多，我們都有抓出來，這一次的國家總預算比去年多了1,368億元，而非我們之前說的八百多億元，在主計總處給我們資料之後，整個核算下來原來今年通過的總預算比去年多了1,368億元，法務部也多了十幾億元，在這個情況下，說真的，你們要是還是一直在那邊扯，說什麼用電怎麼樣、衛生紙怎麼樣、用水怎麼樣，其實我覺得這個講久了也不好聽。而且我在這邊跟各位報告，我一直很想說一句話，因為這段時間有一堆地方的民意代表，甚至包括中央的立法委員都在造謠，人民有什麼補貼會拿不到，什麼租屋補貼、育兒津貼都會拿不到，因為我們刪了預算。但我在這邊跟各位報告，不會拿不到！因為那部分預算沒有刪，完全沒有刪！之前就是造謠，接下來大家也一定還會領得到，因為公務員有抑留剋扣罪，我想沒有一個公務員敢該發而不發，這在刑法上面就構成犯罪，但是我們現在看到的是政治人物在前面拚命的造謠騙國人，我在此跟在座各位以及國人保證，沒有刪除的東西就是會發出來，因為公務員沒有不發的權力，除非你本身申請資格不符合，否則他沒有不發的權力，不然會構成抑留剋扣罪。次長，這個沒有問題吧？"],["黃次長謀信：對，有這個法律。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以我在這邊通告全國公務員，不要因為立場而去配合那些政客在那邊胡說八道搞鬼，該發的東西就要發，否則一定會構成犯罪。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員補充一下，我們多了十二億多其實是多在人事費，因為我們今年增額了151人，相關的人事費還有晉級的費用就十二億多，所以本部實質上的預算金額沒有增加，增加的是人事費的部分，今年大概是這個樣子。"],["吳委員宗憲：我可以瞭解，所以我剛剛有說是不同的科目，但是過去運作得了，現在卻跟我們講一些比較低階的，沒水、沒電、沒衛生紙，甚至連經常門的東西也拿出來做文章，我不是說法務部，連經常門的東西都可以拿出來做文章，我真的覺得說多了是自己丟臉，因為那個東西不會受影響啦！","再跟次長報告一件事，接下來我可能會比較注意到AI書類系統的部分，因為過去3年，我們花了3,169萬2,000元經費在AI的書類系統上，將來我可能會去考察AI書類系統的成效如何、運作狀況如何以及上個會期我們希望能夠有檢察官對於這個系統的滿意度調查報告，因為他們才是使用者，請他們給我們這個調查報告，這個部分再麻煩部裡面能夠幫忙，到時候我可能會排一些考察。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們現在在桃園、臺中已經試辦了一陣子，新北跟臺北也在去年開始試辦，未來要考察的話，可以到桃園或臺中這種試辦比較久的地檢署來看目前的成效。另外委員有提到它的使用回饋機制，事實上我們也希望地檢署使用之後，對於一些好的不好的部分，我們會有一個會議來請他們表達意見，給我們一些建議。"],["吳委員宗憲：最後就麻煩你們針對到醫院去訊問沈慶京這件事，請法務部就檢察官開臨時偵查庭去就訊時候應該有哪些注意事項，訂出統一的規定，避免還有這樣的狀況發生。因為發生這個狀況，也許檢察官在這一波社會攻擊上受到委屈，因為有可能檢察官都沒講過這個，可是就是因為空白的存在，或是像王郁文那個16分鐘沒有錄影空白的存在，人家就可以講你很多了，就有無限的想像空間。"],["黃次長謀信：好，這部分要不要另外訂一個要點，我們再研議，倒是可以考慮看看在我們執行的相關要點某一條裡面做提示性的規範。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想要徹底解決這個問題，然後是開庭全程錄影部分，也麻煩法務部一定要通告檢察官一定要落實。"],["黃次長謀信：這是法律規定。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝次長。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：現在請賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員。","蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員。","下一位請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","柯建銘","王義川","吳思瑤","黃國昌","王鴻薇","沈發惠","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00011"}}},{"id":"159143","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159143","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fac09b98a6b319e87ba53b8a5773cfe3d86f8ffab8834d98307257f5fd76a241a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"12:11:59 - 12:20:09","影片長度":"00:08:10","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:11:59+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:20:09+08:00","duration":490,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8615937500000004,"end":6.527843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.45596875,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.14721875,"end":37.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.86471875,"end":167.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.42971875,"end":148.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.09596875,"end":151.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.88659375,"end":204.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.70784375000002,"end":234.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.72409375,"end":240.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.05659375000002,"end":244.29659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.66784375,"end":252.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.62846875000002,"end":255.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.87284375000002,"end":265.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.47471875,"end":285.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.84284375000004,"end":291.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.28909375,"end":378.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.33034375,"end":397.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.14159375,"end":428.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.80784375,"end":462.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.87846875,"end":489.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.89346875,"end":475.29846875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.161,"end":7.992,"text":"謝謝主席,四妖姐姐來了,有請次長好,有請次長"},{"start":12.442,"end":36.644,"text":"今天特別開心我可以回到熟悉的教文會最有氣質的教文會那更開心的是私邀推動了兩屆今天是第454天青年基本法可以邁向最後一里路與其壯世代更英挺青年我想這是台灣社會很高的共識青年世代就是我們的未來下一頁"},{"start":37.885,"end":42.446,"text":"那來細數這454天的努力我非常謝謝青年團體跟思瑤給我很多元的意見我們歷經了無數次的大小的座談不管是公開或是不公開那包括謝謝陳建仁前院長以及這一屆的卓院長都say yes所以今天我們有機會站在這裡進一步的由我們的教育部來作為主責的單位下一頁"},{"start":67.072,"end":91.854,"text":"為什麼需要青年基本法因為要落實青年的主流化擴大挺青年要解決組織面的困境解決政策面的困境更要藉由一個永續的而且是高位階的基本法可以建立一個不論誰執政都能夠挺青年的永續政策所以我要強調它是一個基本法它不是作用法"},{"start":92.495,"end":109.067,"text":"他是要把基本国策的高度可以定出来而且可以整合政策工具拓展政策的广度更可以延伸永续发展的政策的时间的长度所以台湾需要青年基本法下演"},{"start":109.787,"end":130.954,"text":"而推動基本法民進黨最用心最有經驗民進黨的執政的任內呢我們的九部基本法就是我們最有經驗也因為有過去奠基的經驗這一次我非常期待青年基本法能夠來copy前面的幾個基本法的經驗框架有了"},{"start":132.274,"end":148.094,"text":"這整個運作的機制有了然後我們可以更快的完成立法而且能夠提升整個基本法的品質您剛剛說一個月內行政院會有院版然後呢這個會期希望能夠送到立法院一個月內送到一個月內部版"},{"start":150.377,"end":166.906,"text":"部辦送行政院好那這個會期院版送到立法院很好謝謝您的補充說明所以因為有前面的經驗我相信可以更快而且事實上我們已經推動了400多天了好我們加緊來進行下一個"},{"start":167.947,"end":172.19,"text":"那我也謝謝因為私謠的版本是推動最早所以現在我跨黨派委員提出來的18個版本基本上以私謠的版本為基礎大家接受就是說我接受大家給我更多元的意見那同時我也謝謝這個base這個討論的基礎基本上也能夠作為原版的一個參照但是我利用我非常短的時間我替大家彙整出了18個版本的進合之處"},{"start":197.967,"end":203.578,"text":"第一個 青年的用詞定義 剛剛很多委員講了大概是吳思瑤版的十三案"},{"start":205.238,"end":209.641,"text":"18到35岁最多也是行政院的立场那芬兰"},{"start":241.18,"end":254.883,"text":"教育部會是主責單位但是基本法是不應當明定主管機關的過去到現在的基本法多數除了"},{"start":255.959,"end":285.088,"text":"去年很倉促很快的通過的新住民基本法是在一片混亂當中而且是因為藍白多數表決通過的事實上你去參酌過去所有基本法的立法體力都沒有明定主管機關因為它是跨部會而且它是要垂直中央跟地方的各級政府所以我要做這個提醒否則很多一開始卡在主管機關就會擺不平這是我的提醒不應當明定主管機關下一個我加快"},{"start":285.948,"end":303.14,"text":"但是應當要有專責單位我要提醒單位跟機關不一樣吳思瑤等五個版是專責單位那像怡瑾交委他是用專責機關但是我要分享專責機關每一個機關是法有名定尤其在地方政府"},{"start":303.7,"end":329.835,"text":"青年基本法不只要求中央的各部會落實青年主流化也要求各級政府來配合但各個政府的機關數是有法定的天花板的如果用機關來定的話可能會去影響跟限縮各級政府做得到跟做不到的那個困境所以我是提醒大家也希望能夠把專責單位反而更可行"},{"start":332.176,"end":354.453,"text":"然後呢 吳斯堯的版本是執行監督跟管考機制 中央要有一個跨部會的青年事務協調匯報 跨部會的第二個 常設的青年諮詢機制就是現在的青年 青資會要不要再拓展 再延伸 再改造 我支持第三個 專責單位 注意喔 不是主管機關專責單位 either way 是教育部"},{"start":355.214,"end":378.421,"text":"或是行政院另外有一个任务编组是在行政院设置青年事务办公室都可以这是四要的版本你们可以参照下一个最后两点很重要的是不要再卡在要不要设青年发展基金而延宕了立法因为立法院不要再违宪立法院不得为增加预算支出之倡议跟提案"},{"start":379.401,"end":397.23,"text":"我看到國民黨委員的版本都有要求國家設立青年發展基金如果是行政院你們認為可以做你們也要找出指定的裁員就是預算法九十一條憲法七十條成正紀律法第五條第七條的規範所以不要卡在青年發展基金"},{"start":399.212,"end":427.611,"text":"我們的版本多數民進黨的版本都是以寬列青年預算逐年增加這樣子的文字不只可行而且它不會違憲它不會違憲就不會卡在未來法案這邊逃我不希望青年基本法最後通過了違憲的版本還要去釋憲好事不要再去釋憲所以我們就在條文上提醒大家要注意最後一個最後一個對於青年政策白皮書的提出"},{"start":428.911,"end":458.251,"text":"青年国事会议召开的频率我也希望跟建议参着各个基本法的规定责任政治都是四年为期所以这是我汇整出来目前的几个版本的进合上而且我认为一定要提出的提醒也希望纳入你们布版跟院版的参考这样子的话我说的这些话不只来自于吴思耀过去四百多天的努力跟青年团体跟所有的委员的努力更是因为我们有过去"},{"start":459.151,"end":473.528,"text":"好幾部基本法制定的經驗擷取過去的經驗我們不要再走冤枉路也不要甚至不要造成未來立法的一些陷入僵局的狀況所以我的幾點提醒是不是市長都可以帶回去"},{"start":474.068,"end":475.028,"text":"謝謝主席給我時間謝謝大家謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":766,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（12時12分）謝謝主席，思瑤姐姐來了，有請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["吳委員思瑤：今天特別開心，我可以回到熟悉的教文會，最有氣質的教文會，更開心的是思瑤推動了兩屆，今天是第454天，青年基本法可以邁向最後一哩路，與其壯世代，更應挺青年！我想這是臺灣社會很高的共識，青年世代就是我們的未來！來細數這454天的努力，我非常謝謝青年團體給思瑤很多元的意見，我們歷經了無數次的大小座談，不管是公開或是不公開，包括謝謝陳建仁前院長，以及這一屆的卓院長，都Say Yes！所以今天我們有機會站在這裡，進一步由教育部來作為主責的單位。","為什麼需要青年基本法？因為要落實青年主流化，擴大挺青年，要解決組織面的困境，解決政策面的困境，更要藉由一個永續的、而且是高位階的基本法，可以建立一個不論誰執政都能夠挺青年的永續政策。所以我要強調，它是一個基本法，它不是作用法，它是要把基本國策的高度可以訂出來，而且可以整合政策工具，拓展政策的廣度，更可以延伸永續發展政策時間的長度，所以，臺灣需要青年基本法。","推動基本法，民進黨最用心、最有經驗，民進黨執政任內，我們的9部基本法，這是我們最有經驗，也因為有過去奠基的經驗，這一次我非常期待青年基本法能夠來copy前面幾個基本法的經驗，框架有了，這整個運作的機制有了，然後我們可以更快的完成立法，而且能夠提升整個基本法的品質。您剛剛說一個月內行政院會有院版，然後這個會期希望能夠送到立法院，一個月內送到……"],["葉次長丙成：一個月內部版……"],["吳委員思瑤：部版送行政院？好！這個會期院版送到立法院，很好，謝謝您的補充說明。","所以，因為有前面的經驗，我相信可以更快，而且事實上我們已經推動了四百多天，我們加緊來進行！我也謝謝，因為思瑤的版本是推動最早，所以現在跨黨派委員提出來的18個版本，基本上以思瑤的版本為基礎，就是說我接受大家給我更多元的意見，同時我也謝謝這個base，這個討論的基礎基本上也能夠作為院版的一個參照。但是我利用我非常短的時間，我替大家彙整出了18個版本的競合之處。第一個，青年的用詞定義，剛剛很多委員講了，大概是吳思瑤版等13案，18到35歲最多，也是行政院的立場。芬蘭──第一個全球立法，是30歲以下，韓國是35歲以下，你們可以去參照，但是我提醒，因為在經濟部跟農委會特別針對青創跟青農，它有到45歲的定義，所以如果我們青基法的青年定義是35歲以下，如果以思瑤的版本來講的話，你要有新增的例外但書，這個是我的提醒。","第二個，在主管機關，這個大家要注意，教育部會是主責單位，但是基本法是不應當明定主管機關的，我要提醒教育部。過去到現在的基本法，多數，除了去年很倉促、很快通過的新住民基本法是在一片混亂當中，而且是因為藍、白多數表決通過的，事實上，你去參酌過去所有基本法的立法體例，都沒有明定主管機關，因為它是跨部會，而且它是要垂直中央跟地方的各級政府，所以我要做這個提醒，否則很多一開始卡在主管機關，就會擺不平，這是我的提醒，不應當明定主管機關，但是應當要有專責單位。我要提醒，單位跟機關不一樣，吳思瑤等5個版是專責單位，像宜瑾召委是用專責機關，但是我要分享，專責機關，每一個機關是法有明定，尤其在地方政府，我們青年基本法不只要求中央各部會落實青年主流化，也要要求各級政府來配合，但各個政府的機關數是有法定天花板的，如果用機關來訂的話，可能會去影響跟限縮各級政府做得到跟做不到的那個困境，所以我是提醒大家，也希望能夠用專責單位反而更flexible、更可行。","然後吳思瑤的版本是執行、監督跟管考機制，中央要有一個跨部會的青年事務協調會報，跨部會的。第二個，常設的青年諮詢機制，就是現在的青諮會要不要再拓展、再延伸、再改造，我支持。第三個，專責單位，注意喔！不是主管機關，專責單位either way是教育部，或是行政院另外有一個任務編組，是在行政院設置青年事務辦公室都可以，這是思瑤的版本，你們可以參照。","最後兩點，很重要的是不要再卡在要不要設青年發展基金而延宕了立法，因為立法院不要再違憲，立法院不得為增加預算支出之倡議跟提案，我看到國民黨委員的版本都有要求國家設立青年發展基金，如果是行政院你們認為可以做，你們也要找出指定的財源，這是預算法第九十一條、憲法第七十條、財政紀律法第五條、第七條的規範，所以不要卡在青年發展基金。我們的版本，多數民進黨的版本，都是以寬列青年預算逐年增加，這樣子的文字不止可行，而且它不會違憲！它不會違憲，就不會卡在未來法案這邊，我不希望青年基本法最後通過了違憲的版本，還要去釋憲，好事情不要再去釋憲了！所以我們就在條文上提醒大家要注意。","最後一個，對於青年政策白皮書的提出、青年國是會議召開的頻率，我也希望跟建議參酌各個基本法的規定，責任政治都是4年為期，所以這是我彙整出來目前幾個版本的競合，而且我認為一定要提出的提醒，也希望納入你們部版跟院版的參考。這樣子的話，我說的這些話，不只來自於吳思瑤過去四百多天的努力，跟青年團體、跟所有委員的努力，更是因為我們有過去好幾部基本法制定的經驗，擷取過去的經驗，我們不要再走冤枉路，甚至不要造成未來立法陷入僵局的一些狀況。","所以我的幾點提醒，是不是次長都可以帶回去？"],["葉次長丙成：沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我們就真的最後一哩路！民生第一，朝野合作，立院破冰，我希望就以青年基本法來作為我們最好的一個典範，最好的一個經驗，謝謝主席給我時間，謝謝大家，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝思瑤委員，次長請回。","我們接下來請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","我們請蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧、蘇巧慧委員不在。","我們請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","我們請羅明才委員、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","我們請王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","我們請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-2","speakers":["林宜瑾","黃捷","林楚茵","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","林德福","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","范雲","吳思瑤","邱志偉","陳培瑜","李坤城"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基\n本法草案」案；三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；四、審查委員吳思瑤等\n47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；六、\n審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法\n草案」案；八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；九、審查委員王美惠等17人\n擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十一、審\n查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十二、審查委員葛如鈞等19人擬具「青年基本\n法草案」案；十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十四、審查委員魯明哲\n等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；\n十六、審查委員葉元之等 20 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十七、審查委員林德福等 20 人擬具\n「青年發展基本法草案」案；十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案 (僅進行\n詢答)","agenda_id":"1142601_00009"}}},{"id":"159142","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159142","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f21b238ab6369d5c5b0efe61acdb48b4e86f8ffab8834d983a2be613e28a423535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:51:00 - 12:00:06","影片長度":"00:09:06","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【如本院改為加開院會，則本次會議取消，不另行通知。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:51:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:00:06+08:00","duration":546,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":2.6297187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.4734687500000003,"end":4.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.384718750000001,"end":4.941593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.941593750000001,"end":4.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.384093750000002,"end":8.535968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.856593750000002,"end":44.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.37846875,"end":57.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.84909375,"end":57.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.080968750000004,"end":61.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.557218750000004,"end":74.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.17534375000001,"end":83.00534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.24159375,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.26034375,"end":101.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.71971875000001,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.97159375000001,"end":118.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.01659375000001,"end":121.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.20596875000001,"end":140.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.29159375,"end":168.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.06784375,"end":176.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.38721875000002,"end":186.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.55034375000002,"end":193.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.24971875,"end":197.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.85659375,"end":201.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.33284375000002,"end":207.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.49221875,"end":208.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.67784375000002,"end":208.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.84221875,"end":215.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.71034375000002,"end":249.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.86534375000002,"end":261.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.21784375000004,"end":282.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.46909375,"end":275.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.14721875000004,"end":298.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.87034375,"end":335.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.19784375,"end":336.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.95721875000004,"end":377.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.47409375,"end":382.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.67159375,"end":382.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.70534375,"end":382.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.77284375000005,"end":385.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.92846875000004,"end":418.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.93596875000003,"end":434.59596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.14034375000006,"end":439.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.40096875,"end":479.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.05721875,"end":483.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.97221875,"end":487.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.75221875000005,"end":514.2122187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.8915937500001,"end":541.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.5834687500001,"end":542.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.7647187499999,"end":543.08534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.254,"end":2.318,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們一樣請數位部黃部長請部長"},{"start":8.896,"end":34.733,"text":"委員好來 部長好這個部長我還是延續剛剛先講的這個的問題剛剛他講到南韓我給部長更新一下這個新聞就是說今年這個南韓因為的個人資訊保護委員會有發現說臉書Meta在收集了這個使用者的一些宗教信仰政治觀點還有性別議題等等的方面的資料來提供給這個廣告商所以最後裁罰了5億元有這樣的故事存在所以今天講到說"},{"start":35.854,"end":56.892,"text":"我們今天公務機關全面禁止使用Deep-Seek的原因當然是因為說擔心有這個資安疑慮那我想問的是說部長對於現在這種TradeGPT或Deep-Seek這種AI軟體這種AI工具只有Deep-Seek有這種個資或是這種資訊上傳的疑慮嗎其他的這個模型有沒有這相關的風險"},{"start":59.261,"end":74.455,"text":"我還要講說當我們要禁用一個軟體或是一個服務的時候還是要引用法律啦那還是要有法依據那Deep Sheet被禁用是因為根據危害國家自動安全產品的一個規範去禁止使用那"},{"start":75.296,"end":97.202,"text":"我們並沒有禁止使用Deep-seek在民間是因為我們在民間目前並沒有法規去讓我們能夠禁止民間使用Deep-seek所以並不是用擱置法去禁止Deep-seek而是用危害國家自身安全產品這樣的規範去禁用Deep-seek那的確Deep-seek確實因為它是中國的產品那它的資料確實有回傳中國而且中國有情報法"},{"start":98.382,"end":117.83,"text":"他的中央機關可以隨時要求DC把資料給他情報給中國的政府來監控所以這個確實有這樣的一個疑慮我們才會去盡曹部長因為剛剛的確你提到說的確DeepStick有這個相關的問題這大家都知道我們也不能否認這個事實但我當然問你第一就是說其他的"},{"start":119.279,"end":139.825,"text":"這個AI模型會不會有相關的疑慮他的數據他一樣後端他的後端這個資料庫裡面會不會有被隨時提取的風險這是第一個問題那第二個問題就是說因為剛剛部長在上一段質詢裡面有提到說你也明確講說中國是現在是我們的敵人嘛好那如果他是我們的敵人如果假設這個認定為真的話那如果"},{"start":141.325,"end":168.405,"text":"他是我們敵人那Deep Seek的相關的資料中共的官方可以隨時提取的話那如果我們只有官方禁止使用民間卻沒有禁止使用那這個邏輯不是有點矛盾嗎因為其實民間的很多資料庫裡面或是我們民間的很多資訊系統裡面都有我們的很多的敏感資訊在還有我們國人的很多的不管是政治立場也好 宗教信仰也好各方面的資訊也好這些東西不就也會提供給所謂敵國來判斷來作為情搜的工具嗎"},{"start":169.105,"end":196.953,"text":"那個我還是回答那一點就是說我們要禁用任何的軟體或服務一定要有法可循那目前禁用公家公務機關不能使用DC是根據危害國家自動安全產品這樣一個規範可是那個規範只有規範到公務機關並沒有規範到民間所以我們在民間目前唯一就是說目前我們除非我們能夠證明DC有個資法違法那我們沒辦法禁用它所以我們現在也是在分析跟收集"},{"start":197.933,"end":224.298,"text":"看看Deep Seek是不是有真的違反個資法但目前因為還沒有足夠的證據來證明它違反個資法所以目前並沒有禁止使用Deep Seek好 部長還是回到華德山部長你這樣提的我覺得是比較被動的啦因為這是對數位部的期待我想是部長你很清楚我對數位部是非常支持的在這個總預算的時候我也想提醒很多次啦我想我對數位部的支持你們應該不能否認啦所以我們今天要提的是說今天既然有數位部的存在"},{"start":225.278,"end":248.94,"text":"是後續談到說包含現在本來要今天討論所謂AI基本法的問題也是一樣如果今天你是因為有其他的法令來處理Deep-Seek的問題那我今天要請我們其他數位部做的是不管是Deep-Seek也好還是CheckGPT也好還是相關後續會發展出的很多AI模型也好那我們這個母法是什麼我們的基本法是什麼這個時候到底數位部什麼時候才要提出來"},{"start":250.112,"end":274.763,"text":"對我們事實上在去年11月我們就有提一個院的版本那當然就是說這一個我們是希望在這個會期能夠再做一些文字修改那當然也參考各黨團的不同版本我們希望當然是希望在這個會期能夠提出一個AI基本法但是我要特別強調就是說這個基本法有兩個層面一個就是鼓勵AI的創新另外一面是要考慮到人權"},{"start":276.003,"end":297.214,"text":"對考慮到人的這個人權的問題所以這方面怎麼取得balance就大家要再來討論就是說過度的管理會造成AI發展的受限但是不管理又會造成AI的危害所以這個確實是一個是煞車一個是油門到底怎麼去什麼時候踩煞車什麼時候踩油門這個就是最大的問題那這個需要跟跟社會跟各黨團再來提步"},{"start":299.335,"end":325.427,"text":"因為你剛剛也提到一件事情是我們之所以現在沒有禁止民間使用Deep-Seek或是我沒有去禁止比如說TrackGPT或是其他的這個AI模型在官方在公務機關來使用原因是因為沒有相關的法令這是你剛剛講的嘛那這個相關法令一直沒有出來之前現階段我們正在民間正在使用Deep-Seek也好或是我們官方各公務機關可能有些人已經也在使用TrackGPT也好"},{"start":326.067,"end":335.062,"text":"那在這過程裡面在變狀過程裡面我們的這些資訊或是我們的個資或是我們的這個政府的決策是不是他的這個數據就流出去了會不會這個問題"},{"start":337.006,"end":361.798,"text":"我剛也講過就是說原則上像這種所謂的雲端的這個LM的服務我們在這個公務機關的敏感資料應該就是說我們會要求避免使用但就是說這個東西還是一樣就是說在雲端版但是現在就是說這些公司包括Microsoft包括Google他們也知道這個問題所以慢慢開始會提供一個所謂的這個"},{"start":364.039,"end":384.266,"text":"也不是叫這個地板就是說它會有一個叫做沙盒這樣的一個概念就是把資料就放在沙盒裡面而不出去如果這個是可行的話我們會比較trust不過這個還需要再進一步的去驗證不過就是說LOM確實是很多功能是可以用那但是呢我們在公家地方是要特別小心部長對不起因為我們時間不夠剩兩分鐘"},{"start":386.227,"end":415.567,"text":"剛剛你不小心主動提到這幾個跨國大公司他們願意跟這政府可能願意跟你們來這個呃配合或談判嗎可是從我們過去在談詐騙這事情就好了我想數據部也花了很多心力在跟Meta跟Google這些跨國公司在進行相關的談判到今年只能相對有成效那回到這個AI基本法的問題就好如果回到AI基本法的問題如果我們的數據資料全部也是掌握在這種跨國公司手上或者是像現在新的這CheckGP手上的話"},{"start":416.267,"end":439.326,"text":"那你蘇衛部的立場是什麼那另外還有就是說剛剛提到了要分等級因為我想歐盟你很清楚歐盟已經有分出來有一個所謂基本法出來了歐盟有分四個等級那我們台灣在這個AI基本法上面我們參考的版本是以歐盟為主呢還是像南韓為主還是怎麼樣還是會有怎麼樣版本出來我們現在是同時參考美日英還有歐盟的那就是說"},{"start":440.467,"end":463.43,"text":"歐盟主要是以管理為主那美日英主要是以產業推動為主那怎麼取得balance就是我們現在在跟各界溝通那我是希望出來一個版本是同時能夠鼓勵AI的創新但是同時又能夠在適當的地方踩煞車不要影響到人權或者是公平性透明性或者是自然各方面的問題所以這個"},{"start":464.911,"end":479.362,"text":"這個的確是一個比較複雜的工作那這個也需要再跟各個社會去溝通不過同時我們也希望說很快的在這個會期能夠提出一個版本讓大家能夠通過然後能夠在AI的規範上至少有"},{"start":480.163,"end":506.818,"text":"有可以依循那避免一些可能造成的危害我想發展當然是發展很快啦因為現在大家我覺得對於民意代表對多數民眾來講大家擔心的反而是監管的部分尤其是個資的部分還有像比如說針對那大家都會想像幻想或想像說未來AI可能取代一些人類的工作或人類的思想的問題這部分是歐盟訂的規範比較嚴格那我要問的是說我們數位部未來在這個相關法令上面在討論的過程裡面"},{"start":508.94,"end":525.722,"text":"會在這種最高層次的監管部分是依歐盟的標準還是依其他國還是依美國的標準我們希望是就是說用台灣的現況用台灣的標準那這個就是我們需要再跟社會再溝通我不希望定出一個AI基本法是讓大家覺得自然難行然後只是為了慣例"},{"start":526.423,"end":539.176,"text":"不過就是這個東西還需要再溝通同時希望能夠促進產業那同時又能夠不要做一些可能AI產生的危害包括歧視偏見或者是治安或正確性透明性的問題都要一併處理這個我們會努力好 部長謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":558,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時51分）謝謝主席。我們一樣請數位部黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。這部分我還是延續剛剛先翔的問題，剛剛他講到南韓，我給部長更新一下新聞，今年南韓的個人資訊保護委員會有發現說臉書Meta在蒐集使用者的宗教信仰、政治觀點還有性別議題等等方面的資料，來提供給廣告商，所以最後裁罰了5億元，有這樣的故事存在。所以講到我們今天公務機關全面禁止使用DeepSeek的原因當然是擔心有資安疑慮，那我們想問的是說，部長，對於ChatGPT、DeepSeek這種AI工具，只有DeepSeek有這種個資或資訊上傳的疑慮嗎？其它的模型有沒有相關的風險？"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，我還是要講說當要禁用一個軟體或是一個服務的時候，還是要引用法律，要有法依據。DeepSeek被禁用是因為根據危害國家資通安全產品的規範去禁止使用，我們並沒有禁止DeepSeek在民間使用，是因為我們沒有法規去讓我們禁止民間使用DeepSeek，所以並不是用個資法去禁止DeepSeek，而是用危害國家資通安全產品這樣的規範去禁用DeepSeek。那DeepSeek確實是中國的產品，它資料確實有回傳中國，而且中國有情報法，他的中央機關可以隨時要求DeepSeek把資料給中國政府來監控，所以確實有疑慮我們才會去禁止。"],["黃委員健豪：好。部長因為你剛剛提到說的確DeepSeek有相關的問題，這大家都知道，我們也不能否認這個事實。我剛剛第二個問題是問說，其他的AI模型會不會有相關的疑慮？它的數據，它後端的資料庫裡面會不會一樣有被隨時提取的風險？這第一個問題。那第二個問題是說，因為部長剛剛在上一段質詢有提到說，你很明確說因為中國現在是我們的敵人，如果他是我們的敵人，如果這個假設認定為真的話，那DeepSeek的相關資料中共的官方可以隨時提取的話，如果我們只有官方禁止使用，民間卻沒有禁止使用，這個邏輯不是有點矛盾嗎？因為其實民間的很多資料庫裡面，或是我們民間很多資訊系統裡面，都有很多我們的敏感資訊在，還有很多我們國人的不管是政治立場也好、宗教信仰也好、各方面的資訊也好，這些東西不就也會提供給所謂的敵國來判斷、來做為情蒐的工具嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我還是回到那一點，就是說我們要禁用任何的軟體或服務，一定要有法可循，目前禁用公務機關不能使用DeepSeek是根據危害國家資通安全產品這樣一個規範，可是那個規範只有規範到公務機關，並沒有規範到民間，所以目前在民間除非我們能夠證明DeepSeek有個資法違法，不然我們沒辦法禁用它。所以我們現在也是在分析跟蒐集，看看DeepSeek是不是真的有違反個資法，目前因為還沒有足夠的證據來證明它有違反個資法，所以我們目前並沒有禁止使用DeepSeek，還是回到法的層面。"],["黃委員健豪：部長你剛剛提的，我覺得是比較被動的，因為對數位部期待，部長你也清楚，我對數位部是非常支持的，在總預算的時候我也提醒很多次，我想我對數位部的支持你不能否認啦。所以我們今天要提的是說，今天既然有數位部的存在，後續也談到說包含現在本來要討論所謂AI基本法的問題也是一樣，如果今天你是因為有其他的法令來處理DeepSeek的問題，我們期待數位部做的是不管是DeepSeek也好，還是ChatGPT也好，還是相關後續會發展出的很多AI模型也好，我們這個母法是什麼？基本法是什麼？到底數位部什麼時候才要提出來？"],["黃部長彥男：我們事實上在去年11月就有提一個院的版本，希望在這個會期能夠再做一些文字修改，當然也參考各黨團的不同版本，我們當然是希望在這個會期能夠提出一個AI基本法。但是我要特別強調，基本法有2個層面，一個就是鼓勵AI的創新，另外一面是要考慮到人權。"],["黃委員健豪：監管嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：對，考慮到人的人權問題，所以這方面怎麼取得balance大家要再來討論，就是說過度的管理會造成AI發展的受限，但是不管理又會造成AI的危害，一個是剎車、一個是油門，什麼時候踩煞車，什麼時候踩油門？這個就是最大的問題，這需要跟社會、跟各黨團再同步溝通。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，因為你剛剛一直提到的一件事情是，我們之所以現在沒有禁止民間使用DeepSeek，或是我沒有去禁止比如說ChatGPT或是其他的AI模型在公務機關來使用的原因是因為沒有相關的法令，這是你剛剛講的嘛。那這個相關法令一直沒有出來之前，現階段民間正在使用DeepSeek也好，或是我們官方各公務機關可能有些人已經在使用ChatGPT也好，那在這變動的過程裡面，我們的這些資訊、我們的個資或是我們政府的決策，是不是數據就流出去了？會不會有這個問題？"],["黃部長彥男：我剛剛也講過，就是說原則上像這種所謂的雲端LLM的服務，在公務機關的敏感資料我們會要求避免使用，但就是說這個東西還是一樣在雲端版。但是現在這些公司包括Microsoft、包括Google，他們也知道個問題，所以慢慢會開始提供一個也不是叫地板，就是它會有一個沙盒的概念，就是把資料放在沙盒裡面而不出去，如果這是可行的話，我們會比較trust，不過這還需要進一步去驗證。不過就是說LLM確實是很多功能可以用，但是我們在公家機關使用要特別小心。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，對不起，因為我時間不夠，剩2分鐘。剛剛部長您主動提到這幾個跨國大公司，他們可能願意跟你們配合或談判。"],["黃部長彥男：沒錯。"],["黃委員健豪：可能從我們過去在談詐騙這件事情就好了，我想數位部有花了很多心力在跟Meta、Google這些跨國公司在進行相關的談判，到今年可能才相對有成效，那回到這個AI基本法的問題就好，如果回到AI基本法的問題，如果我們的數據資料也是全部掌握在這些跨國公司手上，或是像現在新的這個ChatGPT手上的話，那你數位部的立場是什麼？另外還有就是說，剛剛提到的要分等級，因為我想歐盟，你也很清楚歐盟有分出來了，有所謂基本法出來了，歐盟有分4個等級。那我們臺灣在AI基本法上面，我們參考的版本是以歐盟為主？還是南韓為主？還是怎麼樣，會有什麼樣的版本出來？"],["黃部長彥男：我們現在是同時參考美、日、英和歐盟的，歐盟主要是以管理為主，美、日、英主要是以產業推動為主，怎麼取得balance我們現在就在跟各界溝通。我是希望出來一個版本是同時能夠鼓勵AI創新，同時又能夠在適當的地方踩剎車，不要影響到人權或者是公平性、透明性或者是資安等各方面的問題。所以這的確是一個比較複雜的工作，也需要再跟社會去溝通，不過同時我們也希望說很快的在這個會期能夠提出一個版本讓大家能夠通過，在AI的規範上有所依循，避免一些可能造成的危害。"],["黃委員健豪：我想發展當然是發展的很快啦，現在大家我覺得對於民意代表、對多數民眾來講，大家擔心的反而是監管的部分，尤其是個資的部分，還有像比如說都會想像或是幻想未來AI取代人類的工作或人類思想的問題，這部分是歐盟訂的規範比較嚴格，那我要問的是說我們數位部未來在這個相關法令上面，在討論的過程裡面，在這種最高層次的監管部分，是依歐盟的標準，還是依美國的標準？"],["黃部長彥男：我們希望是用臺灣的現況、用臺灣的標準，那這個就是我們需要再跟社會溝通，我不希望訂出一個AI基本法是讓大家覺得窒礙難行，然後只是為了管理。不過就是這個東西還需要再溝通，同時希望能夠促進產業，同時又不要做一些可能因AI產生的危害，包括歧視、偏見或者是資安、正確性、透明性的問題都要一併處理，這個我們會努力。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員健豪代）：接下來請許智傑委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-2","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","黃健豪","林楚茵","游顥","葛如鈞"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00010"}}},{"id":"159141","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159141","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fe4ec22eda88b78acb0efe61acdb48b4e86f8ffab8834d9839a2554e42ef972245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:40:47 - 11:50:46","影片長度":"00:09:59","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【如本院改為加開院會，則本次會議取消，不另行通知。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:40:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:50:46+08:00","duration":599,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.0559687500000003,"end":4.334093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.32971875,"end":5.970968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.05034375,"end":11.590343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.590343750000002,"end":11.607218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.607218750000001,"end":11.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.792843750000003,"end":21.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.95159375,"end":32.549093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.93721875,"end":51.398468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.76971875,"end":53.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.642843750000004,"end":54.469718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.908468750000004,"end":77.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.39846875,"end":84.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.70971875000001,"end":85.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.53659375000001,"end":97.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.16346875,"end":100.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.43346875,"end":98.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.28534375000001,"end":109.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.98846875000001,"end":112.04721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.16534375,"end":117.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.19409375000001,"end":123.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.79659375000001,"end":124.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.65284375,"end":126.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.15034375,"end":136.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.31346875,"end":136.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.38096875000002,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.63409375,"end":136.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.80284375000002,"end":136.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.90409375000002,"end":150.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.01596875,"end":153.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.62721875,"end":154.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.76221875000002,"end":156.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.48346875000001,"end":157.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.15409375000002,"end":157.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.84596875,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.57159375,"end":158.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.02721875,"end":159.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.19596875000002,"end":159.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.24659375000002,"end":159.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.28034375000001,"end":159.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.29721875,"end":159.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.66846875000002,"end":160.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.46159375000002,"end":160.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.84971875000002,"end":162.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.11096875,"end":164.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.16971875000002,"end":165.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.77284375000002,"end":169.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.87346875,"end":178.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.82596875000002,"end":178.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.75409375,"end":178.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.97346875000002,"end":179.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.04096875000002,"end":179.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.95221875000001,"end":180.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.25159375,"end":221.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.21159375000002,"end":224.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.41784375,"end":233.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.86784375000002,"end":242.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.42846875,"end":237.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.33909375000002,"end":246.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.59159375000002,"end":253.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.34159375000002,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.30846875000003,"end":276.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.77534375,"end":302.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.30846875000003,"end":303.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.18596875000003,"end":312.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.11721875,"end":312.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.31971875,"end":312.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.58971875000003,"end":312.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.97784375000003,"end":313.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.90596875,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.03409375,"end":335.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.45096875,"end":337.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.82221875000005,"end":348.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.28034375000004,"end":352.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.56659375000004,"end":366.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.33346875,"end":359.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.41784375000003,"end":359.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.08346875,"end":371.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.85471875,"end":375.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.21284375000005,"end":376.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.15784375000004,"end":395.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.27284375000005,"end":400.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.26784375000005,"end":401.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.36471875,"end":430.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.63034375,"end":450.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.27284375000005,"end":450.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.13346875,"end":453.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.71534375000005,"end":454.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.21721875000003,"end":455.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.06096875000003,"end":457.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.27596875,"end":472.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.02534375000005,"end":470.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.06284375,"end":472.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.74596875000003,"end":477.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.66534375000003,"end":477.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.74534375,"end":477.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.76221875000005,"end":478.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.82971875000004,"end":480.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.91784375000003,"end":485.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.55409375000005,"end":501.64034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.64034375000006,"end":507.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.22159375,"end":530.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.55909375000005,"end":508.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.41221875,"end":535.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.23409375,"end":542.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.52846875,"end":543.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.67596875,"end":555.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.75846875,"end":561.4115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.07409375,"end":565.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.76534375,"end":573.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.4897187500001,"end":583.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.97846875,"end":579.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.33221875,"end":593.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.27159375,"end":594.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.2334687499999,"end":595.1953437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.079,"end":5.842,"text":"謝謝主席 一樣麻煩邀請我們的黃部長請部長好 部長好 這個我要問的大概跟剛剛邱老委員我進來的時候邱老委員在問的這個確GPP跟Deep-seek的人工智慧有關當然如果說剛剛有他問過在走路沒聽到的話可能再麻煩你再說一次"},{"start":27.501,"end":53.3,"text":"其實就是我們國家現在目前禁止公務機關使用DeepSync就我個人的感覺啦這是一個非常沒有自信的一個作為啦好像我們做不出來一個比它一個好的一個中文的以中文為主的語言模型然後我們就禁止它然後不讓大家使用好像就看不到我們的缺點這樣子我覺得非常沒有自信的一種作為啦"},{"start":53.76,"end":72.91,"text":"那在這個語言模型上面目前Deep Seek是最強的那剛剛部長有說普遍啦不管是部長還是新聞報的媒體上面大概說會禁用Deep Seek大概兩個原因第一個就是國家通訊安全第二個就是隱私嘛大部分都是在這兩個主軸上面"},{"start":73.931,"end":96.508,"text":"第一個國家這個通訊安全部長怎麼會認為說使用Deep Seek會影響到國家自通訊的一個安全影響國家安全那個很明顯我們內部有做很多測試他確實會把我們因為第一個LM本來就是可能會因為他是個大圓模型他的資料庫是在中國"},{"start":97.508,"end":125.787,"text":"對 每一個語言模型的資料庫都在他自己的伺服器那因為在中國所以任何上面給的資料他一定回到中國那所以就是說這個我們在檢測上已經發現有這樣的問題那再加上這個我們的本來就是說我們有個危害國家中央安全產品的這樣的一個因為會回傳到中國大陸所以你們認為他是有影響到國家安全的疑慮他有治安的問題那目前"},{"start":127.248,"end":152.458,"text":"我們使用的通訊產品非常的多有沒有類似一樣去類似只要把訊息傳回去中國大陸就禁止的一個目前根據這個條文只要是中國產品在公部門都不能使用包括像小米手機這種東西都不能使用所以這已經是一個從2019年就立了一個法例所以只要有任何的資訊可能會回傳到"},{"start":153.878,"end":167.203,"text":"中國大陸 華為設備不能用 伺服器只要在中國大陸就是禁用的 政府機關就禁用好那第二個就是我們的剛剛講的這個各自的問題 各自的問題"},{"start":170.916,"end":188.75,"text":"目前有明確的資訊這個DeepSeek會把相關用戶的個資洩露出去嗎或是相關的訴訟有相關的判決出來過剛剛講有幾個model那個因為我們講DeepSeek上有APP版有網路版有所謂的地端版"},{"start":189.511,"end":218.129,"text":"那我們現在看到其他國家在進那個比如說有如果民間在禁止使用Deep-seek主要指的是APP版那我們也發現APP版的確會跟後面像Buydance這樣公司有連結但是連結裡面的資料是經過加密所以到底裡面傳什麼資料到底是廣告資料還是個人資料我們不曉得所以這個還需要再做進一步的研究但是呢就是說我們目前禁止是三個都禁止民間我們現在"},{"start":218.669,"end":245.766,"text":"沒有去特別去禁止就是因為因為這兩天新聞也有在討論要不要禁民間嘛對不對對 民間能夠禁止還是要回到因為我們是民主法治的國家所以一定要依法行政所以我們如果要禁止一個軟體的話一定是要有法那如果它那個在民間來講現在就生一個法叫做這個個資法那個資法你要證明它是有違反個資你要收集證據所以我們現在這方面我們對 所以就個資這一點跟部長討論這一點你們必須要非常的謹慎"},{"start":246.767,"end":273.718,"text":"因為目前為止你說自通訊軟體的各自的保護的情況怎麼樣當然我們在使用的時候都會有什麼你cookie啊 笑出來什麼的但實際上我們都知道我們在使用自通訊傳聞品在用手機的時候用任何的Google Facebook的時候其實我們的各自都是一直被外露去給他們做商業使用的這是一個是不爭的事實那尤其在美國或者是說去年底在韓國也都有一個訴訟我記得去年底韓國好像是告Meta吧 Facebook"},{"start":274.398,"end":282.906,"text":"那要賠償賠償幾億我忘了啦就是有一個明確的事證在就是有洩露個資然後去做商業盈利的行為所以說"},{"start":285.762,"end":311.668,"text":"DeepSeek有沒有可能會做洩露各自做商業行為當然有可能嘛當然有可能我知道一定有可能但是我們不能因為他有可能就是去認定他一定會洩露反而是我們時常在用的如果說我們這個速發部那麼在乎民眾的隱私的時候我們到底有沒有去對我們大家常用的Facebook或者是Google搜尋引擎我們去給他做調查我們有做過相關調查嗎如果說我們速發部那麼重視隱私對那個"},{"start":313.968,"end":315.41,"text":"去年底剛剛就跟部長討論到南韓就罰他不知道多少錢,忘記一百多億吧"},{"start":336.948,"end":351.897,"text":"已經有明確的一個施政在那邊了你不去查他結果你去查一個到目前為止還沒有還沒有具體施政的一個這個AI軟體然後懷疑他可能會洩漏個資我是覺得就是沒有一致的標準啦如果說我們速發部真的那麼在乎"},{"start":352.737,"end":371.292,"text":"我們國家通訊使用者的一個個資問題的話我們應該是要一視同仁我們盡量去查Deep Seek沒有問題但是你也必須要去查因為Google或Facebook我們長久以來常常搜尋什麼東西廣告就跑出來了嘛我們持續關注但是我剛才講說Deep Seek被禁用不是因為個資法是因為它"},{"start":371.912,"end":395.24,"text":"對但是我現在就討論在民間你們在討論要進民間這部分嘛對不對民間目前沒有進進沒有嘛對不對我只是希望我們蘇巴部未來在討論這件事情之後必須要審慎而且是公平的來做專業的審查我希望說我們蘇巴部是專業的審查以視同仁所有的產品不要因為它來自哪邊而有不同的一個差別甚至是我們擔心的事情明明在眼前就已經看到擔心的事情每天都在發生"},{"start":396.34,"end":425.812,"text":"民眾的資訊的個資每天都在歪樓你們視而不見結果去因為對我講我就認為去找他麻煩就是因為意識形態的關係而有不同的一個標準這是民眾的部分我希望說未來我們出發部審慎的來做一個評估至於政府部門你說因為真的政府部門你說你怕資料傳過去如果說你過去你就禁止使用華為怎樣的話好沒關係這個是政府的一個我認為這是你們的行政權這是你們的行政權我不會過度的一個干涉"},{"start":426.212,"end":452.788,"text":"但是畢竟目前DeepSeek的中文語言模型真的太強了如果說能夠讓我們的公務人員好好利用的話對於提升了我們的公務的效能我單單講寫公文這件事情就好了啦會有很大的幫助那當然我們也知道說我們不可能把我們的公文丟進去DeepSeek讓它回傳到對岸去嘛包括GBT我相信部長你也是不認同用任何的把任何的公文拿去語言模型去給它修這都有削弱的風險但是任何的語言模型現在都有"},{"start":454.055,"end":472.357,"text":"離線使用吧對不對就是那個如果像CHAT GPTGP這種他們是沒有離線版但是他因為像微軟就會有另外的的措施讓你的資料比如說就在一個沙盒裡面所以對就不會不會回傳到他們伺服器嘛不會被拿去做包括DeepSync也是嘛對不對"},{"start":474.012,"end":501.064,"text":"DCIC基本上原則上當初我們之前那個唐鳳前唐鳳部長不就是用這種方式然後去規避了他的那個越獄的問題嗎對不對他是去就是說那是另外一個問題就是說他本身的這個所謂的safe guard治安防護做不好所以很容易去做jailbreak去挖出敏感資料或是就說那個但是這是另外一個問題像資料傳回中國然後去對"},{"start":501.644,"end":529.363,"text":"沒有我就是在講確認只要在離線的情況下啦其實你說現在誰沒有在用AI模型你沒有在用AI模型你在文字的一些表述上面或者是文字動考上面包括很多記者全部都在用AI在幫忙論馬都在用幫忙論文字啊包括公家機關在寫公文每天你花一個小時寫公文的時間你可能請他幫忙論一下除了錯字修正之外履歷更順減省我們的公務人員的時間啊那我希望說"},{"start":530.524,"end":542.814,"text":"未來我們也是可以用安全 安全就是最優先的考量 只要能夠我不只單純DeepSeek 而是所有的語言模型在我們的公務機關 只要確保他的資料沒有"},{"start":543.723,"end":564.802,"text":"回傳的一個風險的話它是可以離線使用的話我們的政府應該是要敞開了雙手來利用新的科技來減輕我們公務人員在文書上面處理的一個負擔我覺得這是一個AI最基本目前現階段對於我們公務同仁可以提供一個很實質的一個幫助我們最後希望是自己有自己所謂主權的AI就是我們自己的"},{"start":565.943,"end":593.981,"text":"當然啦你們也可以做阿對不對包括我也鼓勵你們可以做一套可以幫我們公務人員篡寫公文系統更為簡潔節省時間的一套系統嘛對不對你們能做得出來當然優先使用阿對不對但還沒有做出來之前我們也必須要敞開雙手去看人家的好處嘛不要因為他來自哪邊所以我們就去否定他而不讓我們去使用然後增進我們的工作的一個技能嘛好不好以上 部長跟您做一些交流 謝謝"},{"start":595.162,"end":595.333,"text":"謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":506,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時40分）謝謝主席，一樣麻煩邀請黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：廖委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：部長好。我要問的大概跟剛剛我進來的時候邱若華委員在問的ChatGPT跟DeepSeek人工智慧有關。如果有他問過的，我在走路沒聽到的話，可能麻煩你再說一次。","我們國家目前禁止公務機關使用DeepSeek，就我個人的感覺，這是一個非常沒有自信的作為，好像我們做不出來一個比它好、以中文為主的語言模型，然後我們就禁止它。不讓大家使用，好像就看不到我們的缺點，我覺得這是非常沒有自信的一種作為。","在語言模型方面，目前DeepSeek是最強的。不管是部長還是新聞報導媒體上面，大家普遍都說會禁用DeepSeek大概有兩個原因，第一個就是國家通訊安全，第二個就是隱私，大部分都是在這兩個主軸上面。第一個國家通訊安全，部長怎麼會認為使用DeepSeek會影響到國家資通訊的安全、影響國家安全？"],["黃部長彥男：那個很明顯，我們內部有做很多測試，它確實會把我們……第一個，因為LLM是一個大語言模型，它的資料庫是在中國……"],["廖委員先翔：對，每一個語言模型的資料庫都在它自己的伺服器。"],["黃部長彥男：因為在中國，所以任何上面給的資料一定回到中國……"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["黃部長彥男：所以我們在檢測上已經發現有這樣的問題，再加上我們本來就有一個危害國家資通安全產品的……"],["廖委員先翔：因為會回傳到中國大陸，所以你們認為它是有影響到國家安全的疑慮？"],["黃部長彥男：它有資安的問題。"],["廖委員先翔：目前我們使用的資通訊產品非常地多，有沒有類似只要把訊息傳回去中國大陸，就禁止的……"],["黃部長彥男：我們目前根據這個條文，只要是中國產品，在公部門都不能使用，包括像小米手機這種東西都不能使用，所以這已經是從2019年就立的一個法規。"],["廖委員先翔：所以只要有任何的資訊可能會回傳到中國大陸……"],["黃部長彥男：華為設備不能用，小米手機……"],["廖委員先翔：伺服器只要在中國大陸，就是禁用的？"],["黃部長彥男：對，政府機關就禁用。"],["廖委員先翔：好。第二個就是我們剛剛講的個資的問題。目前有明確的資訊，就是DeepSeek會把相關用戶的個資洩漏出去嗎？或者是相關的訴訟有相關的判決出來過？"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛講有幾個model，因為我們講DeepSeek有app版、有網路版、有所謂的地端版，我們現在看到其他國家民間在禁止使用DeepSeek，主要指的是app版。我們也發現app版的確會跟後面像ByteDance這樣的公司有連結，但是連結裡面的資料是經過加密。到底裡面傳什麼資料，到底是廣告資料還是個人資料，我們不曉得，所以這個還需要再做進一步的研究。但是我們目前禁止是3個都禁止，民間我們現在沒有特別去禁止，就是因為……"],["廖委員先翔：這兩天新聞也有在討論要不要禁民間，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：對。民間能夠禁止還是要回到……因為我們是民主法治的國家，所以一定要依法行政。我們如果要禁止一個軟體的話，一定是要有法。如果在民間來講，現在就只剩一個法叫做個資法。"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["黃部長彥男：個資法的話，你要證明它違反個資，你要蒐集證據，所以現在這方面我們還在研究。"],["廖委員先翔：對。所以就個資這一點跟部長討論。這一點你們必須要非常地謹慎，因為目前為止，你說資通訊軟體個資的保護情況怎麼樣，當然我們在使用的時候都會有什麼Cookie、消除什麼的，但實際上我們都知道我們在使用資通訊產品、在用手機的時候，或是在用任何的google、Facebook的時候，其實我們的個資都是一直被外漏去給他們做商業使用的。這是一個不爭的事實。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["廖委員先翔：尤其在美國或者是去年底在韓國，也都有一個訴訟，我記得去年底韓國好像是告Meta吧？Facebook，要賠償幾億，我忘了。當時有一個明確的事證，就是有洩漏個資，然後去做商業營利的行為。DeepSeek有沒有可能會洩漏個資做商業行為？當然有可能嘛！我知道一定有可能。但是我們不能因為它有可能，就去認定它一定會洩漏，反而是我們時常在用的……如果真的數發部那麼在乎民眾的隱私，我們到底有沒有去對大家常用的Facebook或是Google的搜尋引擎做調查？如果數發部那麼重視隱私，我們有做過相關調查嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我剛剛講過，他們這些大的媒體公司在資安跟個資保護方面，當然要在這麼多國家使用，應該是他們目前是……我們並沒有看到Facebook有大量個資外洩的例子。"],["廖委員先翔：剛剛就跟部長討論到，去年底南韓就罰它不知道多少錢。我忘記，一百多億吧？"],["黃部長彥男：南韓……"],["廖委員先翔：已經有明確的一個事證在那邊了，你不去查它，結果你去查一個到目前為止還沒有具體事證的AI軟體，然後懷疑它可能會洩漏個資。我是覺得沒有一致的標準啦！如果數發部真的那麼在乎我們國家通訊使用者的個資問題的話，我們應該是要一視同仁。我們今天要去查DeepSeek，沒有問題！但是你也必須要去查Google或Facebook。我們長久以來常常搜尋什麼東西，廣告就跑出來了嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：我們持續關注。但是我剛剛講，DeepSeek被禁用不是因為個資法，是因為它……"],["廖委員先翔：對，我現在談的就是你們在討論要禁民間那部分，對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：民間目前沒有禁止。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有嘛！對不對？我只是希望數發部未來在討論這件事情的時候，必須要審慎而且是公平地來做專業的審查。我是希望數發部是專業的審查，一視同仁，所有產品不要因為它來自哪邊，而有一個不同的差別待遇。甚至是明明在眼前就已經看到我們擔心的事情每天都在發生，民眾的個資每天都在外漏，你們視而不見，結果去……我認為去找它麻煩，就是因為意識形態的關係而有不同的標準。這是民眾的部分，我希望未來數發部審慎地來做評估。","至於政府部門，你說你怕資料傳過去，如果過去就禁止使用華為等等，沒關係！我認為這是你們的行政權，我不會過度地干涉。但是畢竟目前DeepSeek的中文語言模型真的太強了，如果能夠讓我們的公務人員好好利用的話，對於提升我們公務的效能，單單講寫公文這件事情就會有很大的幫助。當然我們也知道我們不可能把公文丟進去DeepSeek讓它回傳到對岸去，包括GPT，我相信部長你也是不認同把任何的公文拿去語言模型修，這都有洩漏的風險。但是任何的語言模型現在都有離線使用吧！對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：如果像ChatGPT、DeepSeek這種是沒有離線版，但是微軟就會有另外的措施讓你的資料就在一個沙盒裡面，所以……"],["廖委員先翔：對，就不會回傳到他們的伺服器嘛！"],["黃部長彥男：就不會被拿去做……"],["廖委員先翔：包括DeepSeek也是嘛！對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：DeepSeek基本上如果用app版……"],["廖委員先翔：當初前唐鳳部長不就是用這種方式，然後去規避了它那個越獄的問題嗎？對不對？"],["黃部長彥男：那是另外一個問題，就是它本身的safeguard資安防護做不好，所以很容易去做jailbreak，去挖出敏感資料或是個……但是這是另外一個問題。現在資料傳回中國，然後去被做……"],["廖委員先翔：沒有，我就是在確認只要在離線的情況下。其實你說現在誰沒有在用AI模型？你沒有在用AI模型，在文字的一些表述上面或者是文字撰稿上面，包括很多記者全部都用AI在幫忙潤嘛！對不對？都在幫忙潤文字啊！包括公家機關在寫公文，每天你花一個小時寫公文的時間，你可能請它幫忙潤一下，除了錯字修正之外，語意更順，減省我們公務人員的時間。","安全絕對是最優先的考量。我不單指DeepSeek，而是所有的語言模型。在我們的公務機關，只要確保它的資料沒有回傳風險，它是可以離線使用的話，我們政府應該是要敞開雙手來利用新的科技，來減輕公務人員在文書處理上面的負擔，我覺得這是一個AI最基本，目前現階段對於我們公務同仁可以提供一個很實質的幫助。"],["黃部長彥男：我們最後是希望有一個自己所謂的主權AI，就是我們自己的模型。"],["廖委員先翔：當然你們也可以做啊，對不對？包括我也鼓勵你們可以做一套可以幫助公務人員繕寫公文的系統，更為簡潔、節省時間的一套系統。你們能做得出來當然優先使用，對不對。"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們現在已經在發展。"],["廖委員先翔：但還沒有做出來之前，我們必須敞開雙手去看人家的好處，不要因為它來自哪邊，我們就去否定它，不讓我們去使用來增進我們的工作技能，好不好？以上，跟部長您做一些交流，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","請黃委員健豪委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-2","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","黃健豪","林楚茵","游顥","葛如鈞"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00010"}}},{"id":"159140","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159140","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f7b52c23e977d4bf5b0efe61acdb48b4e86f8ffab8834d983268cb4a8a8bd5f905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:30:22 - 11:40:28","影片長度":"00:10:06","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【如本院改為加開院會，則本次會議取消，不另行通知。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:30:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:40:28+08:00","duration":606,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.85784375,"end":3.3890937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.6253437500000003,"end":4.384718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.122218750000002,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.88159375,"end":22.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.829093750000002,"end":39.704093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.80534375,"end":48.057218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.985343750000006,"end":63.750968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.37534375,"end":65.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.50596875000001,"end":65.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.55659375,"end":65.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.60721875,"end":68.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.89784375,"end":82.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.65534375,"end":84.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.73909375000001,"end":87.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.37159375,"end":93.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.78846875,"end":98.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.04096875,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.20909375,"end":131.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.63909375,"end":138.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.99659375000002,"end":145.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.03784375,"end":146.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.07971875,"end":164.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.08971875,"end":164.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.52846875,"end":164.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.59596875,"end":164.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.61284375000002,"end":165.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.01784375,"end":165.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.03471875000002,"end":165.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.05159375000002,"end":167.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.26659375,"end":166.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.11034375,"end":167.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.14409375000002,"end":167.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.86971875,"end":168.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.05534375000002,"end":168.10596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.29159375,"end":168.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.10159375,"end":169.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.13534375,"end":172.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.77221875,"end":171.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.93221875,"end":197.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.59096875,"end":207.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.39096875,"end":222.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.69034375,"end":209.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.19221875000002,"end":210.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.86096875,"end":224.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.02971875,"end":224.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.94096875000002,"end":240.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.97221875000002,"end":242.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.28409375,"end":243.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.57096875000002,"end":243.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.58784375000002,"end":245.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.63846875000002,"end":259.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.77096875,"end":267.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.65159375,"end":294.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.02596875,"end":275.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.03409375,"end":278.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.43846875,"end":281.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.97221875,"end":301.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.12409375000004,"end":295.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.15284375000005,"end":318.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.76596875,"end":334.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.30784375,"end":337.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.79284375000003,"end":337.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.05846875000003,"end":337.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.73346875000004,"end":338.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.79659375,"end":339.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.03284375000004,"end":340.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.58096875,"end":344.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.17534375,"end":346.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.01909375,"end":351.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.03596875,"end":346.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.99284375,"end":354.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.38471875000005,"end":358.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.82721875000004,"end":365.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.49284375,"end":366.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.64034375,"end":369.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.17159375,"end":371.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.99409375000005,"end":383.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.88284375,"end":381.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.72659375,"end":383.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.43096875000003,"end":384.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.03846875000005,"end":395.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.17346875000004,"end":385.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.62034375,"end":387.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.45034375,"end":412.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.28534375000004,"end":397.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.97721875,"end":398.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.23659375000005,"end":424.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.26534375,"end":417.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.79159375,"end":426.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.91784375000003,"end":427.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.13284375,"end":428.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.77409375,"end":429.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.24659375000005,"end":436.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.03034375000004,"end":446.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.50971875000005,"end":477.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.96471875000003,"end":478.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.03221875,"end":478.85909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.85909375000006,"end":478.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.90971875,"end":478.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.96034375000005,"end":479.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.41596875000005,"end":479.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.63534375,"end":480.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.76596875,"end":481.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.28909375,"end":481.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.71096875,"end":481.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.76159375000003,"end":481.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.96409375,"end":482.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.03159375,"end":488.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.73534375,"end":488.14034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.24159375000005,"end":491.93721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.44346875,"end":497.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.50596875,"end":504.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.88034375,"end":509.68971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.29721875,"end":515.7647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.06846875,"end":519.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.9328437500001,"end":527.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.2565937500001,"end":530.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.02409375,"end":537.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.9722187500001,"end":542.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.25034375,"end":541.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.4565937500001,"end":543.4734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.4734687499999,"end":548.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.06409375,"end":544.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.94159375,"end":547.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.7722187500001,"end":549.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.56534375,"end":549.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.6159687500001,"end":549.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.81846875,"end":549.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.7297187500001,"end":554.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.50971875,"end":558.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.0828437499999,"end":561.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.2553437500001,"end":567.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.80721875,"end":574.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.5365937500001,"end":571.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.44346875,"end":586.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.94346875,"end":587.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.97284375,"end":594.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.7734687500001,"end":595.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.3090937500001,"end":597.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.33846875,"end":602.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.3840937500001,"end":602.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.9240937500001,"end":603.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.27846875,"end":603.7847187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.251,"end":26.37,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請速發部黃部長請部長委員好部長好 部長本席去年在省速發部 速產署還有治安署的預算的時候有針對政府機關使用深層式AI諮詢過部長 部長不知道您還記不記得那當時本席有要求治安署針對公務機關公部門"},{"start":27.811,"end":48.592,"text":"像是國防部、外交部等相關單位,就是我們討論是否要禁用CHAT、GPT,還有演繹相關的規範,當時有進行過討論。那隨著科技日新月幼,深層次AI不斷的創新,那就近期的AI發展就叫不漲。那中國的Deep-seek,"},{"start":49.032,"end":67.49,"text":"在今年1月正式上架iOS跟安卓兩大平台然後在今年的1月27在美國地區的蘋果App Store下載的檔上超越ChatGBT那有關DeepSync的崛起部長應該有密切的掌握相關訊息吧我們很清楚而且我們內部有做測試"},{"start":68.951,"end":84.134,"text":"就是說有對這個Deep-seek的功能包括它安全性都有做一些評估啦這個委員這邊講的Deep-seek超越CHAT GPT我個人是不同意因為事實上在很多我說的超越CHAT GPT是它的下載量"},{"start":85.745,"end":111.88,"text":"下載量對但是這個以功能面來講跟安全性來講其實這個GDPT還是比較完整是這是部長您的看法吧就是我們評測之後的結果評測之後的結果那卓院長也在2月3號宣布公務機關全面機用Deep-Seek AI的服務確保國家的直通安全那行政院的政務委員吳承文也建議學術研究用途也應該在下載之後來斷網"},{"start":113.121,"end":138.233,"text":"使用比較安全那部長您在24號的時候表示Deep Sea Check有資安的風險所以從資安角度公部門要來禁用那這邊要就教部長一個問題本期在上次質詢的時候有舉出南韓的三星集團還有美國的蘋果還有亞馬遜等國際知名企業他們的內部都是禁止員工使用Check GPT因為有各自外洩的疑慮"},{"start":139.033,"end":167.86,"text":"我國政府目前只有禁用Deep-seek那對於CHAT GPT部長您的態度跟看法呢我們這個是我想都一樣就是說這些深圳市這個LLM都可能會你如果在上面做一些訓練或做一些這些查詢都有可能在這過程中資料會被被這個大圓模型來使用那當然就有可能會有資料外所以這個問題是LLM目前發展到什麼階段LLM現在最近發展非常快"},{"start":169.204,"end":195.761,"text":"是到什麼部長您繼續他現在已經像OpenAI已經到了就是他已經最近有一些新的版本像像那個就是O1就是他有一些4.5就是GPT以前4.0現在到4.5然後衍生了很多的相關的功能所以他是越來越powerful然後那當然他的資料也非常的多那原則上公家機關使用GPT不管怎麼樣都要小心因為在這過程中"},{"start":196.201,"end":222.372,"text":"尤其是雲端版是確實要小心因為目前印度政府例如財政部是禁止使用ChatGPT美國的國防部在內部也是禁止使用ChatGPT那包含法國他的政府機構也是禁用ChatGPT那德國呢他們有隱私的考量基於隱私的考量他們德國數據保護監管機構要求OpenAI必須要提供ChatGPT的透明度報告我們台灣有辦法同樣做到嗎"},{"start":223.922,"end":242.617,"text":"那個我們這邊剛才講就是說這個這個切記BT在公部門有些指引裡面當然就有提醒就是說公家的那個機敏治療不能夠去用切記BT來做處理所以這個這個是有一些規範目前是指引嘛可是沒有明確的說禁止使用在公"},{"start":246.979,"end":267.671,"text":"我們禁止使用是用危害國家自通安全產品的這樣的一個規範去禁止使用那因為千斤PT並沒有危害國家自通安全這個剛剛講就機敏製藥外洩是可能但是並不是危害到國家的所謂的自通安全或是國安的危害"},{"start":267.691,"end":296.252,"text":"部長您提到國家的資通安全那蘋果公司它是以防止機密資料的洩漏所以它禁止員工使用ChatGPT跟外部的AI工具那亞馬遜它也是基於資料安全跟隱私保護的考量禁止使用深層式AI那還有Spotify那包括美國的電信巨頭Verizon他們也提過禁止從公司使用ChatGPT以防止客戶的資訊外洩跟國家機密比起來國家機密不是更重要嗎"},{"start":296.932,"end":320.735,"text":"為什麼我們抒發部沒有跟相關部會來進行研議跟討論我們剛才講就是說我們能夠限制禁止使用是要根據法律那目前目前這一個我們Deep-seek的話是利用危害國家自動安全產品的這樣一個規範去限制但是呢CHAT-GPD並沒有我們沒有辦法證明但是我覺得國家自動安全"},{"start":321.215,"end":343.601,"text":"但是呢他有沒有說基民資料就公司的基民資料或什麼資料會外洩是有可能所以我們基本上我們是建議不要使用但是並沒有法規讓我們能夠去限制GPT的使用所以我想這兩個是主要還是要回答法規目前危害我國的自動安全只有中國大陸嗎就是目前來講就是"},{"start":345.253,"end":363.022,"text":"因為Deep-seek是來自中國的AI所以目前禁用Deep-seek難道只有中國會危害台灣的直通安全嗎目前是目前我們的定義是的確是對來自中國的產品我們是有些管制因為為什麼因為因為簡單來講他們"},{"start":366.904,"end":383.215,"text":"不管從各式各樣的安全的攻擊跟安全的那個是部長您提到攻擊在去年11月的時候您也有說過台灣每個每一秒遭受到的攻擊是1.5萬次1萬5千次平均是1萬5千次沒錯吧"},{"start":384.356,"end":410.614,"text":"是其他國家的四倍所以我們不只要抵禦來自中國的資通安全上面我們要考量到的危機那同樣的還有哪一些國家對台灣也發動過攻擊我們是看他攻擊的太陽所以基本上不是看地點因為他們會有跳板所以他們可能會跳到美國的一些電腦再回來攻擊台灣但是我們從太陽裡面的確發現很多攻擊是跟中國的所謂的網軍是有關聯的"},{"start":412.395,"end":427.16,"text":"那其實不只中國包括俄國還有東歐還有北韓都有啊對 但是部長您也有提到說現在很多深層式的AI APP它不只是CHAT GPT那它會連到CHAT GPT後面的引擎"},{"start":428.2,"end":443.464,"text":"沒有錯吧那如果單一禁止的話那Deep-Seek他也沒有辦法保證是否有其他的APP連到Deep-Seek後端的伺服器所以公家機關我們現在是禁止使用Deep-Seek但是呢對民間我們並沒有限制目前是這樣子"},{"start":443.744,"end":461.076,"text":"對民間沒有限制 那我們現在討論的是CHAT GPTCHAT GPT我們一樣就是我們只有我們目前沒有法規去限制CHAT GPT的使用但是我們有建議在基民資料在公部門裡面也盡量不要也不要使用CHAT GPT但是並沒有並沒有像"},{"start":462.857,"end":480.068,"text":"這個我們限制Deep-seek這樣就是因為Deep-seek主要它是回到危害國家自動安全產品這樣的一個規範去做這樣的限制就是說任何的限制不管是任何的不管是將來任何的軟體的限制都要有法可循所以如果沒有那個部長資安它涉及國家的基面還有科技發展其實不只"},{"start":480.828,"end":502.874,"text":"局限在單一個國家那也希望那個很明顯就是就是來自中國的產品確實很多是有製造這個不只是台灣部長您現在提到中國的話那我舉兩個歷史事件在1939年的時候德國還有蘇聯簽訂德蘇互不侵犯條例那1939年波蘭戰敗之後德蘇共同瓜分波蘭那相隔不到兩年德國納粹德國又發動了發動了攻擊那動員了370多萬人入侵蘇聯那另外"},{"start":510.336,"end":529.183,"text":"越南戰爭在1955年到1975年當時中共出兵的17萬人協助北越擊敗南越那造成越南全面的赤化那我們可以由此可知中共跟北越的關係十分密切那後來就因為國際政治的因素1979年中共與越南發生又發生了中越戰爭"},{"start":530.003,"end":549.64,"text":"所以在國際事務上沒有永遠的敵人也沒有永遠的朋友我們目前敵人就是中國就是很明顯就是就是要所以就是因為他來自中國然後部長您就是立馬當機立斷說我們台灣公部門不能使用dipsyncGPT他同樣也有風險存在"},{"start":550.925,"end":566.247,"text":"對它是它我們沒有法規去禁止它因為它不屬於危害國家自動安全產品這樣的一個category所以目前只能建議不要使用但是沒有辦法禁止使用沒有辦法OK好那Google昨天也發布了Gemma 3"},{"start":567.864,"end":586.289,"text":"部長你也知道現在還有一個AI agent叫做MANUS那接下來只要是來自中國的我們都是全面一律禁用嗎我們現在的其實不是我們啦像很多自由民主國家都會對中國的產品有很多的限制我想這個都是一樣的考量因為確實有自然的疑慮因為資料會送到中國去這個大家都知道的事情"},{"start":587.029,"end":603.636,"text":"是那我剛剛也舉例最後我剛剛部長我也舉例了在法國那在德國同樣的對於AI潛在的風險那他們是禁止公部門使用政府機構都是禁止使用check GPT的那希望部長您再回去想一想好謝謝OK"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":446,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時30分）謝謝主席，請數發部黃部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長好。部長，本席去年在審數產署和資安署預算的時候，有針對政府機關使用生成式AI質詢過部長，不知道您還記不記得？"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["邱委員若華：本席有要求資安署針對公務機關、公部門，像是國防部、外交部等相關單位，是否要禁用ChatGPT及研議相關的規範，當時有進行過討論。隨著科技日新月異，生成式AI不斷地創新，就近期的AI發展就教部長。","中國的DeepSeek在今年1月正式上架iOS跟安卓兩大平台，然後今年1月27日在美國地區的蘋果App Store下載的榜上超越ChatGPT。有關DeepSeek的崛起，部長應該有密切的掌握相關訊息吧？"],["黃部長彥男：對，我們很清楚，而且我們內部有做測試。就是有對DeepSeek的功能，包括它的安全性都有做一些評估。委員這邊講的地區超越ChatGPT，我個人是不同意，因為事實上在很多功能上……"],["邱委員若華：我說的超越ChatGPT是它的下載量。"],["黃部長彥男：下載量？對，但是以功能面跟安全性來講，其實ChatGPT還是比較完整。"],["邱委員若華：這是部長您的看法吧？"],["黃部長彥男：就是我們評測之後的結果。"],["邱委員若華：評測之後的結果？卓院長也在2月3號宣布公務機關全面禁用DeepSeek AI的服務，確保國家的資通安全。行政院的政務委員吳誠文也建議學術研究用途應該在下載之後來斷網使用，比較安全。部長您在24號的時候表示，DeepSeek確實有資安的風險，所以從資安角度，公部門要來禁用。","這邊要就教部長一個問題。本席在上次質詢的時候，有舉出南韓的三星集團，還有美國的蘋果和亞馬遜等國際知名企業內部都是禁止員工使用ChatGPT，因為有個資外洩的疑慮。我國政府目前只有禁用DeepSeek，那對於ChatGPT，部長您的態度跟看法呢？"],["黃部長彥男：我想都一樣，就是說這些生成式LLM，你如果在上面做一些訓練或做一些查詢，都有可能在這過程中資料會被大語言模型來使用，那當然就有可能會有資料外洩，所以這個問題是……"],["邱委員若華：LLM目前發展到什麼階段？"],["黃部長彥男：LLM最近發展非常快……"],["邱委員若華：是3嗎？是到什麼……部長您繼續。"],["黃部長彥男：最近OpenAI又有一些新的版本，像是o1，它有一些4.5。就是ChatGPT以前4.0，現在已經到4.5，然後衍生了很多相關的功能，所以它是越來越powerful，當然它的資料也非常地多。原則上公家機關使用ChatGPT不管怎麼樣都要小心，因為在這過程中，尤其是雲端版……"],["邱委員若華：是確實要小心，因為目前印度政府例如財政部是禁止使用ChatGPT，美國的國防部在內部也是禁止使用ChatGPT，包含法國的政府機構也是禁用ChatGPT……"],["黃部長彥男：我們不能把……"],["邱委員若華：德國基於隱私的考量，德國數據保護監管機構要求OpenAI必須要提供ChatGPT的透明度報告。我們臺灣有辦法同樣做到嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：我們剛才講的是，ChatGPT在公部門我們一些指引裡面當然就有提醒，就是說公家的機敏資料不能用ChatGPT來做處理，所以這個是有一些規範。"],["邱委員若華：目前是指引嘛！可是沒有明確地說在公部門禁止使用ChatGPT。"],["黃部長彥男：對，像DeepSeek當初是用危害國家資通安全產品的規範去禁止使用，ChatGPT並沒有危害國家資通安全的疑慮。剛剛講機敏資料外洩是可能，但是並不是危害到國家所謂的資通安全或是國安的問題……"],["邱委員若華：部長您提到國家的資通安全，蘋果公司它是以防止機密資料的洩漏，所以禁止員工使用ChatGPT跟外部的AI工具；亞馬遜也是基於資料安全跟隱私保護的考量，禁止使用生成式AI；還有Spotify。包括美國的電信巨頭Verizon也提過禁止從公司使用ChatGPT，以防止客戶的資訊外洩。比較起來，國家機密不是更重要嗎？為什麼數發部沒有跟相關部會來進行研議跟討論？"],["黃部長彥男：剛才提到，我們能夠限制禁止使用，是要根據法律。目前DeepSeek是用危害國家資通安全產品的規範去限制，但是我們沒辦法證明ChatGPT有危害國家資通安全，它也沒有說公司的機敏資料或什麼資料會外洩。是有可能，所以我們基本上是建議不要使用，但是並沒有法規讓我們能夠去限制ChatGPT的使用。所以我想這兩個主要還是要回到法條上面。"],["邱委員若華：請問部長，目前危害我國的資通安全只有中國大陸嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：目前來講，就是中國大陸跟港澳。"],["邱委員若華：因為DeepSeek是來自中國的AI，所以目前禁用DeepSeek。難道只有中國會危害臺灣的資通安全嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：目前我們的定義，的確對來自中國的產品我們是有些管制。為什麼？因為簡單來講，他們不管從各式各樣的安全攻擊跟安全資料的……"],["邱委員若華：部長您提到攻擊，在去年10月的時候，您也有說過臺灣每一秒遭受到的攻擊平均是1萬5,000次，沒錯吧？是其他國家的4倍！"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["邱委員若華：所以我們不只要抵禦來自中國資通安全上面要考量到的危機，同樣地，還有哪一些國家對臺灣也發動過攻擊？"],["黃部長彥男：我們是看它攻擊的態樣，基本上不是看地點，因為他們會有跳板，所以他們可能會跳到美國的一些電腦，再回來攻擊臺灣。但是我們從態樣裡面，的確發現很多攻擊是跟中國所謂的網軍是有關聯……"],["邱委員若華：所以其實不只中國，包括俄國、東歐，還有北韓都有啊！"],["黃部長彥男：對，但是……"],["邱委員若華：部長您也有提到，現在很多生成式的AI app，不只是ChatGPT，它會連到ChatGPT後面的引擎，沒有錯吧？"],["黃部長彥男：對，就是……"],["邱委員若華：如果單一禁止的話，那也沒有辦法保證是否有其他的app連到DeepSeek後端的伺服器。"],["黃部長彥男：對，所以公家機關我們現在是禁止使用DeepSeek，但是對民間我們並沒有限制。目前是這樣子。"],["邱委員若華：對民間沒有限制？我們現在討論的是ChatGPT。"],["黃部長彥男：ChatGPT一樣，就是我們目前沒有法規去限制ChatGPT的使用，但是我們有建議機敏資料在公部門裡面也不要使用ChatGPT，不過並沒有像我們限制DeepSeek這樣，就是因為DeepSeek主要是回到危害國家資通安全產品的規範去做這樣的限制。就是說任何的限制，不管是將來任何軟體的限制，都要有法可循，所以如果沒有那個法的話……"],["邱委員若華：部長，資安涉及國家的機密還有科技發展，其實不只侷限在單一個國家，那也希望……"],["黃部長彥男：那個很明顯，就是來自中國的產品確實很多是有資安的問題，這不只是在臺灣……"],["邱委員若華：部長，您現在提到中國的話，那我舉兩個歷史事件。在1939年的時候，德國和蘇聯簽訂德蘇互不侵犯條例。1939年波蘭戰敗之後，德蘇共同瓜分波蘭。相隔不到兩年，納粹德國又發動了攻擊，動員了三百七十多萬人入侵蘇聯。","另外，越南戰爭在1955年到1975年，當時中共出兵了17萬人協助北越擊敗南越，造成越南全面的赤化。我們由此可知，中共跟北越的關係十分密切。後來就因為國際政治的因素，1979年中共與越南又發生了中越戰爭。所以在國際事務上沒有永遠的敵人，也沒有永遠的朋友。"],["黃部長彥男：對，但我們目前的敵人就是中國啊！很明顯就是要保護……"],["邱委員若華：所以就是因為它來自中國，然後部長您就是立馬當機立斷說我們臺灣公部門不能使用DeepSeek……"],["黃部長彥男：對，這個不管在……大家都知道。"],["邱委員若華：但ChatGPT同樣也有風險存在。"],["黃部長彥男：對，它是它，我們沒有法規去禁止它，因為它不屬於危害國家資通安全產品的category，所以目前只能建議不要使用，但是沒有辦法禁止使用。"],["邱委員若華：沒有辦法……OK。Google昨天也發布了Gemma 3。部長，你也知道現在還有一個AI agent，叫做Manus。"],["黃部長彥男：對。"],["邱委員若華：那接下來只要是來自中國的，我們都是全面一律禁用嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：其實不止我們，現在很多自由民主國家都會對中國的產品有很多的限制，我想這個都是一樣的考量，因為確實有資安的疑慮。因為資料會送到中國去，這個是大家都知道的事情。"],["邱委員若華：是。部長，我剛剛也舉例了，在法國、在德國，同樣地對於AI潛在的風險，他們是禁止公部門使用，政府機構都是禁止使用ChatGPT的，希望部長您再回去想一想。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["邱委員若華：OK。"],["主席：謝謝！我們現在請廖先翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-2","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","黃健豪","林楚茵","游顥","葛如鈞"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00010"}}},{"id":"159139","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159139","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f049ea21e9f784544b0efe61acdb48b4e86f8ffab8834d9835347f071d6b30dbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:16:43 - 11:30:05","影片長度":"00:13:22","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【如本院改為加開院會，則本次會議取消，不另行通知。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:16:43+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:30:05+08:00","duration":802,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.45284375,"end":4.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.08034375,"end":11.337218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.180343750000002,"end":19.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.68221875,"end":17.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.875968750000002,"end":23.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.70659375,"end":25.292843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.54596875,"end":26.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.828468750000003,"end":42.977843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.06221875,"end":74.95596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.44534375,"end":77.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.12846875000001,"end":100.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.17971875,"end":114.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.92846875000001,"end":118.61159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.79284375,"end":139.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.53659375,"end":153.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.45409375,"end":155.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.76596875,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.55909375000002,"end":162.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.60034375,"end":165.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.45221875000001,"end":175.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.08784375000002,"end":176.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.50534375,"end":181.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.11221875,"end":183.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.39471875,"end":192.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.49034375000002,"end":207.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.01534375,"end":208.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.11659375000002,"end":212.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.34784375,"end":214.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.25909375,"end":216.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.95909375000002,"end":223.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.09721875000002,"end":232.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.51346875000002,"end":234.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.80034375000002,"end":238.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.12034375000002,"end":244.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.49471875,"end":270.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.97596875,"end":282.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.14284375,"end":283.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.71659375,"end":285.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.14221875000004,"end":288.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.72409375,"end":290.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.07409375000003,"end":292.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.25534375,"end":293.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.35659375,"end":292.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.58846875,"end":295.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.24221875,"end":295.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.37721875,"end":307.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.25721875,"end":311.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.87721875,"end":309.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.50534375,"end":317.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.43284375,"end":318.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.14971875000003,"end":320.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.16659375,"end":334.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.82659375000003,"end":337.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.88534375,"end":359.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.09284375000004,"end":369.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.06596875,"end":370.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.08284375000005,"end":370.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.02784375000005,"end":372.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.41159375,"end":373.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.52534375000005,"end":375.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.85846875000004,"end":375.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.87096875000003,"end":375.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.90471875000003,"end":377.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.10721875,"end":376.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.69346875,"end":396.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.59346875,"end":399.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.63096875,"end":404.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.52034375000005,"end":413.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.67096875000004,"end":415.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.67909375000005,"end":420.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.69596875,"end":415.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.87721875000005,"end":419.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.33221875000004,"end":433.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.29221875,"end":440.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.03346875000005,"end":444.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.95721875000004,"end":445.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.03721875,"end":447.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.55159375000005,"end":453.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.08221875000004,"end":465.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.43909375000004,"end":481.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.65596875000006,"end":483.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.80784375,"end":483.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.61784375,"end":483.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.32659375000003,"end":490.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.08096875,"end":494.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.19409375000004,"end":497.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.21909375,"end":498.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.37909375000004,"end":503.26034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.18846875,"end":507.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.39096875,"end":504.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.05284375,"end":527.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.20596875,"end":527.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.60659375,"end":531.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.01534375,"end":551.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.06284375,"end":553.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.32846875,"end":555.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.31971875,"end":558.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.3740937499999,"end":559.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.94346875,"end":560.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.23034375,"end":562.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.8459687500001,"end":587.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.2534687500001,"end":574.4053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.93909375,"end":591.8034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.0734687500001,"end":611.4965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.86784375,"end":616.1372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.3059687500001,"end":619.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.39034375,"end":616.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.5459687499999,"end":626.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.8022187500001,"end":634.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.62784375,"end":635.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":635.9653437500001,"end":636.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.18471875,"end":636.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.20159375,"end":636.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.2140937500001,"end":659.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.40471875,"end":662.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.37471875,"end":666.3234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.42471875,"end":676.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.8490937500001,"end":683.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.41784375,"end":697.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.91346875,"end":703.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.35971875,"end":717.1003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.43784375,"end":718.6865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.3784687500001,"end":720.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.94346875,"end":725.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.3815937500001,"end":729.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":729.0647187500001,"end":741.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.65346875,"end":764.5022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":765.0590937500001,"end":775.7409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.90221875,"end":770.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":776.6184687500001,"end":779.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":779.9934687500001,"end":795.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":795.40034375,"end":798.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":795.63659375,"end":798.04971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.485,"end":8.295,"text":"謝謝蘇越召委 我們請 部長你要不要喝口水謝謝 謝謝 我們請黃部長"},{"start":16.206,"end":42.7,"text":"部長好,我身為孩子的家長,家裡也有青少年所以我關心的是,看起來好像跟我們沒相關,但是息息相關我們現在未成年的網路的受害人數逐年攀升今天很多我們的委員在關心詐騙,其實詐騙裡面其中有一定的比例也有是孩子"},{"start":43.2,"end":53.963,"text":"那孩子的詐騙大部分是聚焦在這個遊戲的點數之類的那所以呢不管是這個詐騙也好或者是孩子被誘拐也好或者是孩子我相信我們前幾年孩子"},{"start":61.966,"end":77.347,"text":"被網路性剝削的案件層出不窮還有所謂的案房事件所以我們各國都積極在希望在網路的治理裡面有很重要的一點就是保護未成年人如何安全安心的上網"},{"start":78.248,"end":99.097,"text":"那我們的網路治理又該如何有針對青少年孩子的一個安全政策那所以呢如何保護孩子跟青少年我現在給你一個數據這個是報紙媒體說全球每年有3億以上的兒童面臨網路性剝削跟性虐待這個還沒有包含我剛剛講的詐騙"},{"start":101.218,"end":118.318,"text":"的問題性剝削跟性虐待那依照衛生福利部我去看的一個數字我們網路的交友性侵案越來越多未成年受害比例最高網友性侵占比於一成"},{"start":119.864,"end":138.819,"text":"所以有很多網路上的不管是LINE、IG現在還有小紅書、抖音還有這種封閉式的個人聊天式的一個對話這些話術我們如何讓孩子知道什麼是真什麼是假那現在因為這樣子教育部"},{"start":139.66,"end":155.676,"text":"教育部你推出手機管制規範因為現在有些學校有管制有些學校沒管制所以有些學校你也看到所謂的俗稱養雞場或者是停機坪那要不要統一保管"},{"start":156.823,"end":174.703,"text":"我想可能這個跟數位發展部沒有關係但是呢大家關注的是什麼孩子的使用他對於手機裡面網路的內容的安全性還有他上網的一個每日接觸的時數時間"},{"start":177.566,"end":191.742,"text":"那我們都希望是為這個未成年來努力那現在網路到處都常有陷阱那甚至我舉個例子澳洲有立法禁止未成年使用"},{"start":192.623,"end":212.093,"text":"那而且呢這個反映的是政府的網路治理的挑戰那速發部對教育部已經離管制手機保管手機還有呢澳洲有立法禁止那對網路的一個治理要保護青少年的一個網路治理政策速發部有嗎 部長"},{"start":213.373,"end":231.908,"text":"那個的確這個這個網路網路內容不當內容造成青少年影響是蠻大的那我們也有注意到這個這個像剛剛講就是澳洲政府在這邊的一個16歲以下就是說這個接觸就是一些限制那"},{"start":233.59,"end":234.873,"text":"112年度國小跟高中生在網路沉迷的傾向"},{"start":245.543,"end":272.439,"text":"比106年的調查上升上網我們國小國中高中上網最常進行的活動國小跟國中生都是玩智慧型手機遊戲就是線上遊戲手遊我剛剛講的很多網路的詐騙點數的詐騙就是在這裡還有我們呢比例最高的這個國小是將近八成國中呢也將近77.6%"},{"start":274.44,"end":285.234,"text":"那高中生呢是主要是遊戲也有還有呢網路的這個社群網站的比例高達八成五那anyway未成年的"},{"start":287.202,"end":311.662,"text":"的孩子跟青少年就是這兩個社交平台社群然後呢遊戲包委遊戲的確是我們納管的那遊戲現在是這樣我們有把遊戲分類分級那就是有友善遊戲我們Promote那個友善遊戲所以鼓勵就是基本上就是鼓勵青少年那我們有宣傳嗎我們怎麼去分級怎麼去監理"},{"start":313.202,"end":334.053,"text":"對 這個我們有宣傳 而且我們辦活動都有 這個是不是請素產署再說明一下你可不可以再跟我講一下就是我們有根據委員關心那個二少法的部分去做遊戲的分級 有分為五級那我們也要推廣友善遊戲 比如說這個遊戲是注重消費者保護 注重個資保護的這個我們就會把它列為友善遊戲來推廣"},{"start":335.905,"end":358.96,"text":"所以就只有這樣子而已那有什麼標籤顯示比如說家長家長要陪同孩子要了解孩子在玩什麼遊戲那家長可以怎麼樣的按照您所謂的分級分類的管理我們可以怎麼去幫忙一下陪同孩子知道孩子到底有沒有越級或者是他玩他不應該有的遊戲"},{"start":360.634,"end":377.402,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個的確是有我們還入校入班我們現在的團隊每年應該有幾十場到教室裡面去宣傳的幾十場我們應該有幾十場的幾十場啊我們去查一下資料"},{"start":377.882,"end":404.291,"text":"你們現在有在跟教育部或是跟各級學校全台灣那麼多學校你們只有幾十場那你們是怎麼樣的在分區域或者是分年度或者是分國小、國中、高中那怎麼去分配這樣子的一個入學校的宣傳那宣傳的人又是誰那又是透過何種方式宣傳那你們跟家長的溝通有嗎"},{"start":405.56,"end":433.094,"text":"我們有一個組織其實是有家長參與的包括有消費團體家長團體參與他們會來共同決定我們這些整個的制度推廣的一些做法你會後可以給我一個隨便報告嗎好不好我覺得我是建議部長請正視這個問題喔這個雖然你的工作呢只有在遊戲那社交平台或是社群包括社群你也可以喝咖啡我先提供一個IG"},{"start":434.395,"end":452.174,"text":"IG現在青少年的帳號台灣上線未滿16歲自動設為不公開這個很多人應該不知道吧連部長你也不知道對不對而且IG裡面它有一個你可以透過家長變更這一項設定"},{"start":455.114,"end":481.54,"text":"那這個其實也是所謂的一個分級管理的類似同理可證就是說當然社交平台他社群有在努力但是我覺得我們社發部作為網路治理的一個主要的主責單位業務單位我們要去正視到這一塊就是說在我們的網路治理的一個政策裡面我們怎麼針對未成年的保護來做"},{"start":484.643,"end":507.575,"text":"雖然我們有所謂的這個你說在遊戲這邊有一個分級的管理那你也說有宣傳可是我相信很多人不知道我今天問你你回答我可能大家還知道不然很多人不知道甚至很多家長也不知道那所以我們怎麼如果能夠安心呢"},{"start":508.426,"end":531.231,"text":"這個我們在制度跟宣傳上我們都會加強那當然就是從遊戲以外在其他的這個像講說Meta這種軟體的這個方面我們會看怎麼樣再去跟Meta他們溝通就是說至少像這個委員講這個IG這個我覺得是很好就是對年齡不滿16歲要有特別的處理管理措施"},{"start":532.582,"end":547.608,"text":"我是建議除了這個IG以外其他的如果是我們可以政府可以去喝咖啡努力的我覺得也應該啦那你剛剛講的是只有這個遊戲的部分那時候跟你講遊戲不是只有分級治理的問題而已遊戲我剛剛講的遊戲點數的詐騙"},{"start":552.165,"end":574.266,"text":"那個我們有處理你們有特別關注嗎現在已經降到很低了孩子與孩子之間的點數的交易或者是孩子跟這個平台的點數的交易或者是你們認為他已經降低到多少是不是也再給我一個書面報告好不好"},{"start":574.787,"end":584.41,"text":"因為我為什麼要特別提到 再給我一分鐘就好我接下來講 今天很多人都關心這個詐騙那詐騙你們現在有一個打詐的一個全民防騙網那這個打詐通報查詢網 我覺得你們都做一半"},{"start":592.193,"end":611.22,"text":"因為做一半的意思是說你們雖然有跟警政署有所謂的165的全面防詐騙的網路那你們也設計了一個APP但是這個APP在去年呢試用了之後試營運了之後好像不是很理想所以要再調整那再調整了之後呢"},{"start":611.98,"end":633.944,"text":"到目前為止我還沒有看到最終的結果那現在這個APP有沒有再一次的上平台了現在已經給各部會使用了1月就給各部會使用那現在在行政院在審核行政院審核通過我們就再公開所以你現在是先提供給各部會使用那請問一下來下一個有沒有可能是開放民眾可以一鍵查詢就是"},{"start":637.267,"end":661.746,"text":"因為我們現在看到的不同的資訊是散落在不同的平台跟名單裡面你譬如說呢這個全民房詐騙網在警政署那呢非金管會的這投資詐騙等等警示專區是在金管會的一個警示專區那呢你速發部呢現在因為管第三方支付所以呢你又有一個登錄的一個系統那這三個系統"},{"start":662.526,"end":676.693,"text":"我只是簡單舉出這三個可能相關的系統跟詐騙比較有關係的目前你們的這個所謂的打詐通報查詢網是沒有把這不同的部會的系統有做結合"},{"start":678.415,"end":702.652,"text":"這個當然是技術性問題如何嫁接我不知道因為你們是專家那我是希望如果以一般民眾的角度來看的話我如果知道速發布政府有這一個APP那我今天收到一個我覺得有疑問的一個投資訊息我要去查詢這個給我的連結的網到底是真的假的還是他曾經有過詐騙的"},{"start":704.437,"end":720.711,"text":"即儀式名單裡面那我如何可以去查詢很方便的查詢那如果我查到他確實在某個部會的警示專區裡面我是不是多了一份警覺信我就不要再點了我就不要再進去看了"},{"start":722.535,"end":741.238,"text":"這個是一個防炸的一個很基本的一個平台的嫁接這個有可能做得到那個委員的建議很好那我們有個打炸辦公室我們在下次開會會再跟大家幾個幾個部會一起把這個東西看能不能像委員的建議整合成一個單一的一個界面"},{"start":741.778,"end":763.443,"text":"是 是 因為這是跨部會的東西 拜託好不好 我們整合成一個界面第二個整合成界面之後呢 我們甚至要更積極的去進步去更新 更新什麼有些是因為他有被報案的 他有被警示的才列在這個list上面那沒有列在list上面以外的 他有可能詐騙集團"},{"start":765.203,"end":775.41,"text":"手法日新日異我們的公司登記又很簡單他可能又再創一個網頁或是再冒用另外一家公司他可能又有新的手法我覺得這個也要在我們嫁接"},{"start":776.67,"end":798.351,"text":"的平台裡面要不斷的提醒我警示我覺得這個都很重要所以拜託部長這個我希望我們可以做得到你是不是這個給你一個月等你下次開會之後各部會開會之後能不能做得到什麼時候可以做到可不可以給我一個答案好不好一個月內好不好好 以上好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":399,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時16分）謝謝素月召委，部長你要不要喝口水？謝謝，我們請黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["何委員欣純：部長好。"],["黃部長彥男：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長，我身為孩子的家長，家裡也有青少年，所以我關心的是，這個看起來好像跟我們沒相關，但是實際上息息相關。我們現在未成年的網路受害人數逐年攀升，今天我們很多的委員在關心詐騙，其實詐騙裡面其中有一定的比例是孩子，孩子的詐騙大部分是聚焦在遊戲點數之類的。所以不管是詐騙也好，或者是孩子被誘拐也好，前幾年孩子被網路性剝削的案件層出不窮，還有所謂的暗房事件，所以各國都積極希望在網路的治理裡面，有很重要的一點，就是保護未成年人如何安全、安心的上網。那我們的網路治理，又該如何有針對青少年、孩子的安全政策？如何保護孩子跟青少年？","我現在給你一個數據，這個是報紙媒體說，全球每年有3億以上的兒少面臨網路性剝削跟性虐待，這個還沒有包含我剛剛講的詐騙問題，只是性剝削跟性虐待。依照衛生福利部的數據，網路的交友性侵案越來越多，未成年受害比例最高，網友性侵占比逾一成。所以有很多網路上的，不管是LINE、IG，現在還有小紅書、抖音，還有封閉式的個人聊天室的對話，這些話術，我們如何讓孩子知道，什麼是真、什麼是假？現在因為這樣子，教育部擬推出手機管制規範，因為現在有些學校有管制，有些學校沒管制，所以有些學校你會看到俗稱的「養機場」或「停機坪」，要不要統一保管？我想這個可能跟數位發展部沒有關係，但是大家關注的是什麼？孩子的使用，他手機裡面網路內容的安全性，還有他上網每日接觸的時數、時間。我們都希望為未成年來努力，現在網路到處都藏有陷阱，我舉個例子，澳洲甚至有立法禁止未成年使用，這個反映的是政府網路治理的挑戰。數發部對教育部已經擬管制手機、保管手機，還有澳洲有立法禁止，要保護青少年的網路治理政策，數發部有嗎？部長。"],["黃部長彥男：的確網路的不當內容對青少年造成的影響是滿大的，那我們也有注意到，像剛剛講的澳洲政府，對16歲以下接觸有一些限制，那這個……"],["何委員欣純：部長，你過去可能沒有關注到這一點，我再給你一個數據，我的頁面上有，112年度國小跟高中生在網路沉迷的傾向，比106年的調查上升。我們國小、國中、高中上網最常進行的活動，國小跟國中生都是玩智慧型手機遊戲，就是線上遊戲、手遊。我剛剛講的，很多網路的詐騙、點數的詐騙就是在這裡。還有，我們比例最高的是國小將近八成，國中也將近77.6%，高中生主要是遊戲也有，還有社群網站的比例高達八成五。anyway，未成年的孩子跟青少年，就是這兩個，社交平台、社群，然後遊戲。"],["黃部長彥男：報告委員，遊戲的確是我們納管的，遊戲現在是這樣，我們有把遊戲分類、分級，就是有友善遊戲，我們promote那個友善遊戲，基本上就是鼓勵青少年……"],["何委員欣純：那我們有宣傳嗎？我們怎麼去分級，怎麼去監理？"],["黃部長彥男：這個我們有宣傳，而且我們辦活動都有，這個是不是請數產署再說明一下？"],["何委員欣純：你可不可以再跟我講一下？"],["林署長俊秀：就是我們有根據委員關心的兒少法部分去做遊戲的分級，有分為五級。我們也有推廣友善遊戲，比如說這個遊戲是注重消費者保護、注重個資保護的，這個我們就會把它列為友善遊戲來推廣。"],["何委員欣純：所以就只有這樣子而已？那有什麼標籤顯示？比如說家長要陪同孩子、要瞭解孩子在玩什麼遊戲，家長可以怎麼樣按照你所謂的分級、分類管理去陪同孩子，知道孩子到底有沒有越級，玩到他不應該有的遊戲？"],["林署長俊秀：謝謝委員關心，這個的確是有，我們還入校、入班，我們現在的團隊，每年應該有幾十場到教室裡面去宣傳的。"],["何委員欣純：幾十場？"],["林署長俊秀：我們應該有幾十場的……"],["何委員欣純：幾十場啊？"],["林署長俊秀：我回去查一下資料。"],["何委員欣純：你們現在有在跟教育部，或是跟各級學校，全臺灣那麼多學校，你們只有幾十場，那你們是分區域、分年度還是分國小、國中、高中去分配這樣一個入校宣傳？宣傳的人又是誰？又是透過何種方式宣傳？你們跟家長的溝通有嗎？"],["林署長俊秀：我們有一個組織其實是有家長參與的，包括有校友會團體、家長團體參與，他們會來共同決定我們整個制度推廣的一些做法。"],["何委員欣純：你會後可以給我一個書面報告嗎？好不好？"],["林署長俊秀：可以，沒問題。"],["何委員欣純：我是建議部長，請正視這個問題喔！"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["何委員欣純：雖然你的工作只有在遊戲，那社交平台或是社群，包括社群，你也可以喝咖啡，我先提供一個IG。現在青少年的IG帳號，臺灣未滿16歲自動設為不公開，這個很多人應該不知道吧！對不對？連部長你也不知道對不對？而且IG裡面可以透過家長變更這一項設定，這個其實也是類似所謂的分級管理。","同理可證，當然社交平台、社群有在努力，但是我覺得數發部作為網路治理的一個主責單位、業務單位，應該要正視這一塊。就是說在網路治理的政策裡，怎麼針對未成年的保護來做？雖然你說在遊戲這邊有一個分級的管理，你也說有宣傳，可是我相信很多人不知道。我今天問你，你回答我，可能大家還知道，不然很多人不知道，甚至很多家長也不知道，所以我們怎麼能夠安心呢？"],["黃部長彥男：好，我們在制度跟宣傳上都會加強，除了遊戲以外，其他像是Meta這種軟體，這方面我們會看怎麼再去跟Meta溝通。至少像委員講的IG，這個我覺得很好，就是對年齡不滿16歲的要有些特別的處理、管理的措施。"],["何委員欣純：我是建議，除了IG以外，其他如果是我們政府可以去喝咖啡努力的，我覺得也應該啦！那你剛剛講的是只有遊戲的部分，所以我要跟你講，遊戲不是只有分級治理的問題而已，我剛剛講遊戲點數的詐騙……"],["黃部長彥男：那個我們有處理。"],["何委員欣純：你們有處理，你們有特別關注嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：有，現在已經降到很低了。"],["何委員欣純：現在已經降到很低了？孩子與孩子之間點數的交易，或者是孩子跟平台點數的交易，或者是你們認為已經降低到多少，是不是也再給我一個書面報告，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好。"],["何委員欣純：我為什麼要特別提到，再給我一分鐘就好，今天很多人都關心詐騙，你們現在有一個打詐的全民防騙網，這個打詐通報查詢網，我覺得你們都做一半，意思是你們雖然跟警政署有所謂的165全民防詐，有防詐騙的網路，你們也設計了一個app，但是這個app在去年試營運了之後，好像不是很理想，所以要再調整。再調整了之後，到目前為止，我還沒有看到最終的結果，現在這個app有沒有再一次上平台了？"],["黃部長彥男：有，現在已經在給各部會使用了，一月就給各部會使用，現在行政院在審核，行政院審核通過我們就會再公開。"],["何委員欣純：所以你現在是先提供給各部會使用，那請問一下，有沒有可能開放民眾可以一鍵查詢？"],["黃部長彥男：就是……"],["何委員欣純：因為我們現在看到不同的資訊，是散落在不同的平台跟名單裡面，譬如說這個全民防詐騙網在警政署，非金管會的投資詐騙等是在金管會的一個警示專區，現在數發部因為管第三方支付，所以你又有一個登錄的系統。我只是簡單舉出這三個可能相關的系統，跟詐騙比較有關係的，目前你們這個打詐通報查詢網，是沒有把不同部會的系統做結合。這個當然是技術性問題，如何嫁接我不知道，因為你們是專家。以一般民眾的角度來看的話，我如果知道政府有這一個app，我今天收到一個我覺得有疑問的投資訊息，我要去查詢他給我的連結到底是真是假，還是他曾經有在詐騙的疑似名單裡面，我如何可以很方便的查詢？如果我查到他確實在某個部會的警示專區裡，我是不是多了一份警覺性，我就不要再點了，我就不要再進去看了，這是一個防詐很基本的平台嫁接，這個有可能做到嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：委員的這個建議很好，我們有個打詐辦公室，我們在下次開會再跟幾個部會，大家一起把這個東西，看能不能像委員的建議，整合成一個單一的介面。"],["何委員欣純：是，因為這是跨部會的東西，拜託好不好？我們整合成一個介面。第二個，整合成介面之後，我們甚至要更積極的進一步去更新，更新什麼？有些是因為它有被報案了，它有被警示了，才列在這個list上面，那沒有列在list上面以外的，詐騙集團手法日新月異，我們的公司登記又很簡單，他可能又再創一個網頁，或是再冒用另外一家公司，可能又有新的手法。我覺得這個也要在我們嫁接的平台裡面不斷的提醒、警示，我覺得這個都很重要。所以拜託部長，這個我希望我們可以做得到，這個給你一個月，等下次各部會開會之後，能不能做得到、什麼時候可以做到，可不可以給我一個答案，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，回去我們就……"],["何委員欣純：一個月內，好不好？"],["黃部長彥男：好，跟委員報告。"],["何委員欣純：好，以上。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝委員。"],["主席（許委員智傑）：謝謝！我們請邱若華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-2","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","黃健豪","林楚茵","游顥","葛如鈞"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00010"}}},{"id":"159138","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159138","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f2a468587b8434d47b0efe61acdb48b4e86f8ffab8834d9830f6f7234e961ca575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:04:05 - 11:16:34","影片長度":"00:12:29","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【如本院改為加開院會，則本次會議取消，不另行通知。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:04:05+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:16:34+08:00","duration":749,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-3-23-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0772187500000001,"end":3.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.49034375,"end":4.3678437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.054718750000003,"end":10.797218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.219093750000003,"end":55.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.56659375,"end":108.92534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.43159375,"end":117.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.70034375,"end":162.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.58784375000002,"end":171.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.88596875000002,"end":182.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.48346875000001,"end":183.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.42846875,"end":190.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.34284375000001,"end":192.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.94596875000002,"end":202.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.88534375,"end":210.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.76596875,"end":223.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.14784375000002,"end":225.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.19846875000002,"end":224.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.05909375000002,"end":225.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.78471875000002,"end":289.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.28346875000003,"end":247.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.99221875,"end":248.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.36971875,"end":321.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.39846875,"end":351.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.48284375000003,"end":321.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.57221875000005,"end":344.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.61784375,"end":349.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.37284375,"end":354.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.05159375,"end":397.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.43721875,"end":401.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.99346875000003,"end":455.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.01034375,"end":470.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.81471875000005,"end":467.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.89846875,"end":490.28346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.44159375000004,"end":477.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.28346875000005,"end":510.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.55034375,"end":523.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.2022187499999,"end":526.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.3203437500001,"end":524.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.22721875,"end":541.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.55096875,"end":533.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.56659375,"end":565.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.2547187499999,"end":573.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.98846875,"end":569.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.13534375,"end":574.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.15221875,"end":574.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.18596875,"end":574.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.9622187500001,"end":609.2522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.5222187500001,"end":618.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.5165937500001,"end":619.7990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.2547187499999,"end":630.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.85221875,"end":640.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.69034375,"end":642.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.0022187500001,"end":662.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.1172187500001,"end":669.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.1928437500001,"end":665.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.7834687500001,"end":665.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.4409687500001,"end":673.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.18721875,"end":686.9109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.4934687500001,"end":686.2865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.4678437500002,"end":687.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.9740937500001,"end":739.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.74846875,"end":727.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":739.96596875,"end":745.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.8259687500001,"end":746.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.57659375,"end":748.25159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.449,"end":23.256,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們黃部長請黃部長徐委員好部長早 那我想剛剛我們好幾位委員都有特別關心到我們數位部這個總預算被刪除的問題那看起來我們目前的這個刪除預算高達35.8億刪除比例高達41%"},{"start":27.617,"end":51.325,"text":"那剛剛我看部長還有我們幾位署長在應答的時候比較客氣啦 都不敢哀啦事實上這個對我們整個包含數位韌性 包含資訊安全包含AI產業 包含打詐工作影響影響非常的大那我想部長跟我們的所屬的官員不能等閒視之啊 我認為大家介紹都這樣 介紹都沒發生什麼事情我認為這個除了影響到我們"},{"start":55.686,"end":75.273,"text":"部裡面的業務推展之外那事實上對我們整個不管是經濟也好民生也好甚至我們鄉親的權益影響甚巨所以我想這部分我們還是希望數位部未來在這個有機會這個在專案做解凍的時候一定也要力爭到底我想這部分這個是有關我們整個這個"},{"start":76.273,"end":105.032,"text":"政府的發展也是百姓的相信的權益那我想我接著要跟部長提醒的是我們後續的這個數位部的業務我想除了不管只是關心到我們的數位安全之外甚至對我們整個數位基礎建設的發展甚至治安人員的一個招聘海嵐跟低軌衛星的建設跟我們最重要打炸計畫的進行這個都是息息相關那針對目前的這個左聯服一樣沒有過"},{"start":106.693,"end":129.166,"text":"這個部分 未來有什麼樣的想法嗎就是剛剛委員這邊講得很好就是上次我們國家在未來經濟發展很重要就是數位經濟的發展數位經濟發展就是靠剛剛幾個工作就是一個當然基礎建設要做好 韌性要做好然後治安要做好那這個東西這次經費刪這麼多其實我們只好取消很多 尤其是研發方面的計畫"},{"start":130.126,"end":157.816,"text":"那研發方面計畫一取消這個影響是長期性也就是說這個當然是未來這個我個人的擔心就是因為這次預算大刪在我們在還有就是剛剛講AI產業的推動會讓我們在這一邊不管是在AI產業推動我們可能就會落後那安全方面因為這些刪減我很擔心就是不管是詐騙或者是攻擊就比較容易侵入我們的系統"},{"start":158.556,"end":182.175,"text":"然後造成我們很重要的一些不管是資料外洩甚至於資料不只是外洩還被篡改剛剛有委員講到說可能你的銀行資料都會被改掉原來存款就不見了類似這種問題都有可能會發生那油水店哪一天就誇聲全面大規模大停電是因為被入侵像這種問題都可能是我們所擔心的所以"},{"start":184.897,"end":209.05,"text":"這個是蘇發部來講剛剛也講到一句很重要就是我們蘇發部就是網路的國防部這個因為不管是誰在攻擊我們他飛彈打飛彈是到最後的一開始一定是從網路先攻那就是攻你這些有水電交通金融系統 醫院系統這個就是這個防護就是我們蘇發部要負責一個很大的一個工作去協防但是這一部分在今年這樣的影響確實會很嚴重"},{"start":210.971,"end":224.669,"text":"部長我想我個人現在比較擔心目前你們現在總預算的這個三減的幅度不要說出國旅費沒有了甚至未來可能連水電費甚至連你們到地方出差費用不然就沒有了"},{"start":226.071,"end":247.343,"text":"所以我們有好幾個鄉鎮長議員在跟我說的說你如果沒有去出差的時候 你來住啦 他要來給你出錢啦這真的不是開玩笑的 他才煩惱這個部分那所以我想你們還是必須要走出去啦你不走出去也不了解我們很多的這個偏鄉的這個差距那尤其一些城鄉的發展所以部長我們要一起加油啦好 謝謝"},{"start":248.444,"end":263.579,"text":"部長我想我們屏東縣這個幅員遼闊包含有山區有沿海還有這個離島那因為我們很多的這個偏鄉那些的行動通訊的部分確實是遠遠落後我們的都會區那甚至有造成這個4G涵蓋率不足的問題"},{"start":264.48,"end":289.434,"text":"那針對這個偏鄉這個通訊不穩因為我們很多的颱風來的時候通訊中斷那造成所謂的一個救災的一個問題那甚至我們現在在一個偏鄉學校推展這個資訊教育的時候也常常因為這個網路不穩定你就不穩定要推廣那個數位教育那針對這樣的狀況部長我們有沒有什麼策略跟我們相關的部會來做一個合作"},{"start":290.415,"end":305.095,"text":"我們本來就是對這個偏鄉的普及戶一直有一些一直在努力包括很多建設包括就是我們這個在偏鄉在去年我們有333個補助了333個5G的基地站那今年"},{"start":306.697,"end":320.41,"text":"雖然預算有被砍但是我們還是會繼續推動這個偏鄉普及服務當然希望這個偏鄉當然就是包括屏東這個縣的這個適量的這個偏鄉我們都會想辦法讓他能夠享受跟台北一樣的頻寬"},{"start":321.851,"end":343.631,"text":"那我的建議除了這個硬體的建設之外除了我們要增加基地台跟所謂的一個高抗旱的這個基地台的建置之外這對我們整個抗災是很大的一個幫忙讓我們的指揮可以順暢那另外在這個機動部分那是不是可以協調我們相關的電信業者那五一的災情能夠有用行動基地車的方式"},{"start":344.251,"end":359.286,"text":"去彌補是不是我們把它做成一個SOP做我們一個防災的一個很重要的一個依據這個我們會跟電信公司再來協調我想第二個就是涉及到這個整個國家跟通訊安全的部分就是我們的海嵐的一個問題"},{"start":360.367,"end":389.081,"text":"我想從去年到現在我們陸陸續續發現很多這個不明的一個船隻故意在藉由這個停泊的一個機會那其實是看起來像是破壞我們的海底電纜那尤其我們台灣作為一個亞太很重要的一個通訊基地我們有十幾條的海底電纜連接所謂的一個全球的一個通訊的一個問題那我想這部分尤其對我們的通訊跟我們的經濟活動也很重要那我想"},{"start":389.881,"end":404.691,"text":"部長針對這樣的一個今年就發生了至少四起以上的這個案子那我們怎麼樣跟其他部會能夠做這樣的一個合作我們那個原則上是這樣就是我們把現在說的海嵐包括國內海嵐都當作是我們的關鍵基礎建設"},{"start":405.692,"end":434.992,"text":"那這個的意思就是說因為這樣關係我們就可以跟幾個部會像剛剛講海巡署然後這個包括同船會陸委會海港局一起來做所謂的演練那演練就是包括就是我們會注意到就是說在我們在海岸上面是不是有些船隻在逗留或者是在一些不正當的一些這個船隻的活動我們就會趕快去警告或處理那也就是因為這個演練的結果所以我們這次那個那個台棚這次"},{"start":436.273,"end":451.587,"text":"發生斷纜的時候我們馬上就逮捕這條船這個就是這個多戈級這條船那類似的因為這個我們會繼續在這方面研練就是說讓以後我們對海南的這種可能的斷訊或是可能的威脅都有足夠的速度能夠來處理"},{"start":452.828,"end":469.189,"text":"那當然這個也要加強跟國際的合作啦就是說這個這個海南在也是一個國際的問題就斷線國際問題那當然大家有不管是經驗應變的方法或甚至技術這個我們會繼續跟國外做合作那當然後面就是我們加上一些多元包括地位衛星"},{"start":470.21,"end":496.125,"text":"我們還是要提醒要防範中共可能透過一個灰色地帶攻擊的方式癱瘓我們的這個海欄這部分那我想未來我們蘇衛部除了我們做一些部會的一些跨部會的整合防備之外那是不是應該要積極規劃建置更多的一個備援的一個路線我們現在就是像國內像台馬就是4號正在建然後另外就是微波跟"},{"start":497.446,"end":522.792,"text":"低軌衛星的基地站也真的就是不見這個將來就是如果再發生這海欄端線的時候我們希望能夠維護頻寬能夠繼續的這個台馬4號是在115年6月會完工那微波事實上現在是從澎湖到嘉義有一個1.92Ghz的也在115年的1月會完工這樣"},{"start":524.338,"end":540.827,"text":"這個大概就是在部件中好 那我想我們雖然我們的預算受到很大的影響但是這個網路防詐騙這個問題也是不能忽略啦那尤其我想目前的數據雖然呈現我們打詐的成效有出現但是"},{"start":541.747,"end":565.537,"text":"以我們的警政署165的打債預標板看到我們一天還是有250期的非投資型的那尤其我們最近鄉下還是很多老人家甚至很多這個年輕人都被騙了我想這問題不能典型釋之那針對所謂的一個網路平台的部分我想剛剛部長也講了很多但是我想上有政策下有對策你怎麼不想到人家照片一張都想到了所以我們永遠要"},{"start":566.337,"end":585.485,"text":"走得比他們更快 想他們比得更多啦歐雄部長這部分 都能夠加強那真的這樣部分我們是不是有更積極的一個作為有 現在是 我這個剛剛在很多大型 我有講過現在詐騙集團也是因為我們這些目前的這些防詐的效果有效果 所以他們開始轉變很多花樣"},{"start":586.545,"end":607.519,"text":"他們這個很多轉變方案也是用AI的技術在做很多的轉變所以我們要防他或打詐不管是詐騙或者是駭客的攻擊一樣都要用AI去掃描去處理去判斷這一塊就是我們本來是今年的一個工作重點就是我們去發展這個AI技術能夠在打詐進升級防詐升級"},{"start":609.62,"end":630.359,"text":"那我們還是會繼續努力做啦不過因為經費的關係我們有些工作就會縮小規模所以這個後續的這個效果我們當然這個有待觀察不過我們在這邊我們全力還是全力投入啦依我們目前的資源我們還是把這一塊當中是最高的Priority會把它盡量做好"},{"start":631.099,"end":660.342,"text":"部長我去年到委員會的時候我就特別有提醒我們數位部處的這個預算很重要之外人才也很重要但是尤其我們最近發現我們的那個離職率也蠻高的這個我想這個數位競爭的環境我們也必須想出一個留住人才一個誘因那尤其我想我們現在我比較擔心還有我們其他的地方政府很多的單位他們對治安的這個處理能力不足但是我一發現我們的那個集合的量能"},{"start":661.002,"end":686.681,"text":"這我今年就提醒過了,我們集合的量能太少了一年做十幾個,這是要怎麼做這麼多機關,是要怎麼做到會倒下像小年紀有的做一半就不會退位了所以我認為這要加強我們一個基礎的量能尤其是輔導我們這個地方很多機構的一個資安的一個能力跟一個人力的培訓這邊部長有沒有什麼樣的想法,要怎麼突破這個困境"},{"start":687.521,"end":708.954,"text":"人才方面就是在高考有治安的專業科目另外就是我們有治安轉職系的一個訓練當然這個目前大概就是可以就是說當然是不夠但是我們盡量的去在人才上在治安人才盡量的培育"},{"start":710.635,"end":737.128,"text":"治安的問題是因為治安的確業界也很需要所以外面挖角也蠻多的所以這個我們繼續努力就是讓第一個就是讓我們的環境工作環境更好那第二個就是說這個也讓這個治安人員了解工作的重要性那盡量能夠留才能夠在未來能夠做更好我們治安署最近也做一些調整包括署長跟副署長都有調整希望說從這裡面管理層面讓治安的整個工作環境能夠變得更好能夠減少離職的人數這樣"},{"start":740.45,"end":744.535,"text":"對 今天部長提的部分 希望能夠對證一下要來我們共同來努力了好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":373,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時4分）謝謝主席，有請我們黃部長。"],["主席：請黃部長。"],["黃部長彥男：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長早。我想剛剛我們好幾位委員都有特別關心到數位部預算被刪除的問題，看起來我們目前的刪除預算高達35.8億元，刪除比例高達41%。剛剛我看部長還有我們幾位署長在應答的時候比較客氣，都不敢抱怨。事實上這個對我們整個包含數位韌性、資訊安全、AI產業、打詐工作，影響非常的大。我想部長跟我們所屬的官員，不能等閒視之，我看大家好像都當作沒發生什麼事一樣。我認為這個除了影響到部裡面的業務推展之外，事實上對我們整個不管是經濟也好、民生也好，甚至我們鄉親的權益也好，影響甚鉅。所以我想這部分，還是希望數位部未來有機會在專案做解凍的時候，一定要力爭到底，我想這部分攸關整個政府的發展，也是百姓鄉親的權益。","我接著要跟部長提醒的是，後續數位部的業務，除了關係到我們的數位安全之外，甚至對整個數位基礎建設的發展，甚至資安人員的招聘、海纜跟低軌衛星的建設及最重要的打詐計畫的進行，都是息息相關。昨天覆議一樣沒有過，針對這個部分部長未來有什麼想法嗎？"],["黃部長彥男：剛剛委員講得很好，我們國家未來經濟發展，很重要的就是數位經濟的發展，數位經濟發展就是靠剛剛幾個工作，當然基礎建設要做好、韌性要做好，然後資安要做好。這次經費刪這麼多，其實我們只好取消很多尤其是研發方面的計畫，研發方面的計畫一取消，影響是長期性的，還有就是剛剛講到AI產業的推動，因為這次預算大刪，我們AI產業的推動可能就會落後；在安全方面，因為這些刪減，我很擔心不管是詐騙或者是攻擊，就比較容易侵入我們的系統，造成我們重要的資料外洩，甚至於被竄改，剛剛也有委員講到，可能你的銀行資料都會被刪除，都會被改掉，原來存款就不見了，類似這種問題都有可能會發生，油水電哪一天也可能大規模的大停電，因為被入侵，像這種問題都可能是我們所擔心的。","以數發部來講，剛剛也講到一句話很重要，就是數發部就是網路的國防部。因為不管是誰在攻擊我們，打飛彈是到最後的，一開始一定是從網路先攻。就是攻你這些油水電、交通、金融系統、醫院系統，這個防護就是我們數發部要負責的一個很大的工作，就是協防。但是這部分在今年這樣的影響，確實會很嚴重。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我想我個人現在比較擔心，目前你們預算的刪減幅度，不要說出國旅費沒有了，未來可能連水電費，甚至連你們到地方出差的費用都沒有了。所以我們有好幾個鄉鎮長、議員在跟我說，如果沒錢出差的時候，你們來住，他們要幫你們出錢，這真的不是開玩笑的，他們很擔心這個部分。所以我想你們還是必須要走出去，你不走出去，也不了解我們很多偏鄉的差距，尤其一些城鄉的發展，所以部長我們要一起加油。"],["黃部長彥男：好，謝謝。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我想我們屏東縣幅員遼闊，包含有山區、沿海，還有離島，我們很多偏鄉的行動通訊的部分確實是遠遠落後都會區，甚至有造成4G涵蓋率不足的問題。偏鄉通訊不穩影響到什麼？尤其颱風來的時候，通訊中斷，造成所謂救災問題，甚至到偏鄉學校推展資訊教育的時候，也常常因為網路不穩定而變得困難，針對這樣的狀況，部長有沒有什麼策略，跟我們相關的部會來合作？"],["黃部長彥男：我們本來就是對偏鄉的普及服務一直在努力，包括很多建設，去年我們在偏鄉補助了333個5G的基地站，今年雖然預算有被砍，但是我們還是會繼續推動偏鄉普及服務。希望偏鄉地區包括屏東縣的偏鄉，我們都會想辦法，讓他能夠享受跟臺北一樣的頻寬。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我建議除了硬體的建設之外，我們要增加基地台，跟所謂的高抗旱基地台的建置之外，這對我們整個抗災是很大的幫忙，讓我們的指揮可以順暢。另外在機動部分，是不是可以協調我們相關的電信業者，有災情能夠用行動基地車的方式去彌補，是不是我們把它做成一個SOP，作為防災的重要依據？"],["黃部長彥男：我們會跟電信公司再來協調，會盡量的。"],["徐委員富癸：另外就是涉及整個國家通訊安全的海纜問題。我想從去年到現在，陸陸續續發現很多不明的船隻，故意藉由停泊的機會，其實是想要破壞我們的海底電纜。我們臺灣作為一個亞太很重要的通訊基地，我們有十幾條的海底電纜，連接所謂的全球通訊，這部分對我們的通訊跟經濟活動尤其重要，部長，針對今年就發生至少4起以上這樣的案子，我們怎麼跟其他部會作怎樣的合作？"],["黃部長彥男：我們原則上是這樣，就是把我們現在所有的海纜，包括國內的海纜，都當作是我們的關鍵基礎建設，意思就是說，這樣我們就可以跟幾個部會，像剛剛講的海巡署，包括通傳會、陸委會，還有航港局，一起來做所謂的演練。演練就是包括我們會注意到在這些海纜上面是不是有些船隻在逗留，或者是一些不正當的船隻活動，如果有我們就會趕快去警告或處理。也就是因為這個演練的結果，臺澎這次發生斷纜的時候，我們馬上就逮捕了多哥籍的這條船。我們會繼續這方面的演練，讓以後我們對海纜可能的斷訊或可能的威脅，都有足夠的速度能夠來處理。","當然這也要加強跟國際的合作，就是說海纜斷線也是國際問題，當然大家都有，不管是經驗應變的方法甚至於技術，我們會繼續跟國外合作。當然後面就是我們加上一些多元，包括低軌衛星……"],["徐委員富癸：我們還是要提醒，要防範中共可能透過灰色地帶攻擊的方式，癱瘓我們的海纜。這部分我想未來數位部除了做一些跨部會的整合防備之外，是不是應該要積極規劃，建置更多的備援路線？這部分是不是會這樣規劃？"],["黃部長彥男：對，現在就是國內的臺馬四號正在建，另外就是微波跟低軌衛星的基地站也正在布建，將來如果再發生海纜斷線的時候，我們希望能夠維護頻寬。臺馬四號是115年6月會完工，微波現在是從澎湖到嘉義，有一個1.92G的也會在115年的1月完工，大概就是在布建中。"],["徐委員富癸：好，我想雖然我們的預算受到很大的影響，但是網路防詐騙的問題也是不能忽略，目前的數據雖然呈現我們打詐的成效有出現，但是依我們警政署165的打詐儀表版可以看到，我們一天還是有250起非投資型的，尤其我們鄉下最近還是有很多老人家，甚至很多年輕人都被騙了，我想這問題不能等閒視之。針對所謂網路平台的部分，我想剛剛部長也講了很多，但是我想上有政策、下有對策，你都還沒想到，詐騙集團就想到了，所以我們永遠要走得比他們更快，想得比他們更多啦！我想部長這部分能夠加強，針對這部分，我們是不是有更積極的作為？"],["黃部長彥男：有，像是剛剛在很多答詢有講過，現在詐騙集團也是因為我們目前防詐有效果，所以他們開始轉變很多花樣。他們很多轉變好像也是用AI的技術在做很多的轉變，所以我們要防它或打詐，不管是詐騙或者是駭客的攻擊，一樣都要用AI去掃描、去處理、去判斷。這一塊本來是我們今年的一個工作重點，就是去發展這個AI技術，能夠在打詐升級、防詐升級。我們還是會繼續努力做，不過因為經費的關係，我們有些工作就會縮小規模，後續的效果當然有待觀察，不過我們在這邊還是全力投入，以我們目前的資源，還是會把這塊當作最高的priority，會把它盡量做好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，我去年到委員會的時候就特別提醒，數位部除了預算很重要之外，人才也很重要。但是我們最近發現數位部離職率也滿高的，我想在數位競爭的環境下，我們也必須想出一個留住人才的誘因，尤其現在我比較擔心地方政府很多的單位對資安的處理能力不足，但是我發現我們稽核的量能，我去年就提醒過了，我們稽核的量能真的太少，一年做十幾個，全國這麼多機關是要怎麼樣才做得完？像有的年輕人做一次就要退休了，所以我認為要加強我們稽查的量能，尤其是輔導我們的地方，很多機構資安的能力跟人力的培訓，部長有沒有什麼想法？怎麼突破這個困境？"],["黃部長彥男：人才方面，就是向委員報告過的，我們在高考有資安專業的科目，另外就是我們有資安轉職系的一個訓練，當然這個目前當然是不夠，但是我們在資安人才上盡量的培育。當然資安的問題，是因為業界的確也很需要，所以外面挖角也滿多的，所以這個我們繼續努力。第一個就是讓我們的環境工作環境更好，第二個就是也讓資安人員瞭解工作的重要性，儘量能夠留才，在未來能夠做更好。不過我們資安署最近也做了一些調整，包括署長跟副署長都有調整，也希望從管理層面，讓整個資安的工作環境能夠變得更好，減少離職的人數。"],["徐委員富癸：對，今天部長提的部分，都希望能夠對症下藥，我們共同來努力，謝謝。"],["黃部長彥男：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員，接下來邀請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":360,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-2","speakers":["許智傑","洪孟楷","林國成","李昆澤","林俊憲","蔡其昌","魯明哲","陳素月","徐富癸","何欣純","邱若華","廖先翔","黃健豪","林楚茵","游顥","葛如鈞"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請數位發展部部長黃彥男列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00010"}}},{"id":"159137","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159137","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f20808c3671d5cf23e83d902c8d6dd6c286f8ffab8834d983f6c8e88a0e872c475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:10:18 - 12:16:59","影片長度":"00:06:41","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:10:18+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:16:59+08:00","duration":401,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.2415937500000003,"end":3.6759687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.87846875,"end":6.3590937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.74721875,"end":8.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.075968750000001,"end":9.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.324718750000002,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.68721875,"end":12.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13.024718750000002,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.032843750000001,"end":16.011593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.14659375,"end":17.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.95159375,"end":23.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.250968750000002,"end":29.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.12846875,"end":24.989093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.950343750000002,"end":33.173468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.38471875,"end":32.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.90346875,"end":39.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.35909375,"end":35.704718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":39.23159375,"end":39.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":39.282218750000006,"end":39.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.29471875,"end":45.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.509093750000005,"end":48.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.525343750000005,"end":52.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.42784375,"end":53.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.149093750000006,"end":54.807218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.195343750000006,"end":56.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.35096875000001,"end":61.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.704718750000005,"end":64.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.94909375,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.58596875,"end":69.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.26909375000001,"end":70.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.61909375,"end":71.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.80034375000001,"end":72.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.45409375,"end":74.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.82096875,"end":79.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.83284375000001,"end":80.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.38534375,"end":81.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.97596875,"end":82.33034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.90409375,"end":85.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.63784375,"end":90.39659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.57784375,"end":92.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.01221875,"end":93.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.90659375,"end":97.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.80471875,"end":98.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.45846875000001,"end":99.81284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.13346875,"end":105.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.92159375,"end":106.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.54596875,"end":106.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.32221875,"end":114.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.48971875000001,"end":122.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.81346875000001,"end":131.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.63034375,"end":137.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.91659375,"end":137.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.98409375,"end":138.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.06846875000002,"end":138.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.08534375000002,"end":138.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.11909375000002,"end":138.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.13596875000002,"end":139.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.01346875000002,"end":139.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.97534375,"end":140.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.38034375,"end":140.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.97096875,"end":155.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.79721875,"end":146.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.83784375000002,"end":156.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.68159375000002,"end":164.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.13596875000002,"end":165.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.60409375,"end":170.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.72159375,"end":174.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.99096875,"end":175.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.29471875000002,"end":176.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.32846875,"end":175.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.96534375000002,"end":192.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.27096875,"end":192.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.86159375000003,"end":197.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.82284375,"end":198.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.66659375,"end":200.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.90659375,"end":203.83034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.70784375000002,"end":207.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.59346875,"end":227.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.70846875,"end":228.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.14284375000003,"end":248.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.74721875,"end":250.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.62034375000002,"end":252.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.25721875000002,"end":260.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.20534375,"end":262.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.75346875,"end":266.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.70221875000004,"end":268.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.08596875,"end":269.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.95471875000004,"end":274.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":272.12346875000003,"end":275.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":275.48159375,"end":288.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.33784375,"end":277.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.00284375,"end":288.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.18846875,"end":292.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.55909375000005,"end":295.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":295.96784375000004,"end":297.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":297.62159375000005,"end":309.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":310.46346875,"end":316.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.30221875,"end":328.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":317.11221875,"end":318.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.00909375000003,"end":336.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":336.19784375,"end":336.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.72096875,"end":338.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":338.86409375,"end":342.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.66096875,"end":345.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.37784375,"end":347.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":347.48721875,"end":347.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.50409375000004,"end":348.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.14534375,"end":357.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.72596875000005,"end":366.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.09596875,"end":367.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.11284375,"end":368.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.09159375,"end":368.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.26034375,"end":369.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.82971875000004,"end":373.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":373.33971875000003,"end":373.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.40721875,"end":377.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":377.64284375,"end":378.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":378.57096875,"end":379.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.12784375,"end":385.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":379.24596875000003,"end":379.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.02971875000003,"end":393.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.60659375,"end":394.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.77096875,"end":396.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.62721875,"end":398.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.23034375000003,"end":399.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.54221875,"end":401.84159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.264,"end":6.866,"text":"好 謝謝主席我請楊總裁還有我們財經資訊的林鄧市長王委員早好 總裁好"},{"start":22.194,"end":33.301,"text":"董事長好,總裁,我們財經資訊公司的董事長是我們央行代表是吧?是應該是,不是應該算我請問一下我們林董事長"},{"start":40.356,"end":61.176,"text":"董事長請問一下,我知道您是財經公司基層做起那請問在財經公司裡面有沒有您的兩位侄子跟一位侄女也在財經公司任職跟委員報告有的,但是他不是我核定的"},{"start":62.739,"end":90.18,"text":"都在 所以有三位 兩個侄子一位侄女都在財經公司任職那是怎麼樣是兩位兩位兩位都是侄子嗎 客戶服務組有一位侄女 組長是 是嗎是那另外一位是林 因為我這個字問誰啊 林插安還是林插志"},{"start":91.616,"end":106.168,"text":"林插安林插志勇沒有曾經也在公司任職沒有所以這位排名第三的從來沒有在我們財經公司任職沒有"},{"start":107.386,"end":131.335,"text":"那這兩位因為我接獲我們財經公司的員工的算是爆料吧因為他認為就是我們公司董事長有安插自己的三親等到公司來任職那還有請問您的侄女進入公司半年就升組長是不是事實"},{"start":133.683,"end":155.035,"text":"跟委員報告我要查一下他有升組長是事實那他到公司多久升任跟委員報告這個權限是總經理的權限所以我沒有特別注意他是什麼時候升職那他本來要招進來據我的了解他本來就是儲備要當主管"},{"start":156.983,"end":173.765,"text":"所以确实他进来之后你不晓得他是多久的时间另外再请教一下您的侄女升任组长前组长是不是有被惩戒"},{"start":175.314,"end":203.54,"text":"他的前一位的組長是不是有被懲戒跟委員報告就我的了解當時這個組長其實在之前就有一些問題產生了所以才會在外面再次招募一個儲備的主管所以他是有被懲戒的他被懲戒然後招募剛剛好就是您的侄女也進來了好那麼因為這個的整個的爆料"},{"start":204.744,"end":227.992,"text":"就直接我想总裁也听一下过去曾经在我们国内的金融公营行库里面也出现过这个董事长后来呢就是把他们家的他的家人或者是合伙的合伙股东的小孩一个一个的进入公司以我们财经公司来说那么"},{"start":229.215,"end":248.402,"text":"我覺得這是很集中啦董事長是基層出身我覺得你升任董事長沒有什麼問題但是呢陸陸續續陸陸續續正好都是你的侄子侄女也進入同一家公司我個人覺得這個有利益衝突跟利益迴避的問題"},{"start":249.778,"end":265.816,"text":"並不適當並不適當而且現在已經有員工來做檢舉我想請問一下總裁來請教總裁中央銀行是不是有澄清接貨過檢舉"},{"start":272.194,"end":285.486,"text":"快點喔 我的時間一直在走喔有接貨檢舉那總裁有去了解嗎我們的業務單位有請他們的集合他們的總集合針對人家的檢舉做報告"},{"start":288.288,"end":308.469,"text":"做報告 所以總裁有看過報告嗎我有所以你認為這一切都合理合法合情嗎如果說 如果說 據我們看那個的那個我們它的總集合的這個報告裡面呢我個人是覺得是應該是還可以"},{"start":310.606,"end":325.461,"text":"只有說在這個就像那個委員在講的就是說這個是觀感的一個問題當然有觀感問題啊我覺得任何一下如果說一般民間公司所以我們家人都進公司也就算了但是我們這個是國營事業"},{"start":329.285,"end":357.198,"text":"過去我們國營的就是包含我們的一些我們的銀行也發生這樣的狀況啊是這中秋是要避免的啊是 是 是是不是這是觀感的問題啦是啦 沒有錯啦所以所以我覺得秦總裁還是要處理一下好不好因為不然的話我們今天會繼續接獲這些檢舉函啊而且他認為說他檢舉了之後他們反而反而被秋後算帳"},{"start":359.343,"end":377.495,"text":"所以他在裡面是他們檢舉之後被秋後算賬有一些懲處所以請總裁還有董事長能夠回去重新檢視好不好我也不希望再看到這樣的一些爆料了"},{"start":379.197,"end":397.836,"text":"因為無論如何你可能在講說我集合我任用啊都合理啊可是同樣一個董事長兩個三清等裡面通通都相繼進入了我們的國營的我們的金融機構我覺得這是不是就是有違社會觀感好不好好謝謝王委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1174,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時10分）謝謝主席，請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有財金資訊公司林董事長。"],["主席：請林董事長。"],["楊總裁金龍：王委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：總裁好、董事長好。請問總裁，財金資訊公司的董事長是我們央行代表，是吧？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有錯？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我想請問一下林董事長，我知道您是從財金公司的基層做起，請問在財金公司裡面有沒有您的兩位侄子跟一位侄女也在財金公司任職？"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告，有的，但不是我核定的。"],["王委員鴻薇：都在，所以有三位──兩位侄子、一位侄女都在財金公司任職？"],["林董事長國良：沒有，沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：那是怎麼樣？"],["林董事長國良：是兩位。"],["王委員鴻薇：兩位都是侄子嗎？有一位侄女是客戶服務組組長，是嗎？"],["林董事長國良：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外一位是林X安，還是林X志？"],["林董事長國良：林X安。"],["王委員鴻薇：林X志有沒有曾經也在公司任職？"],["林董事長國良：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這位排第三的，從來沒有在財金公司任職？"],["林董事長國良：沒有。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為本席接獲財金公司的員工算是爆料吧，他認為公司董事長有安插自己的三親等到公司任職；再請問您的侄女進入公司半年就升組長，是不是事實？"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告，我要查一下，他有升組長是事實，時間我不是很確……"],["王委員鴻薇：他到公司多久升任？"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告，這個是總經理的權限，所以我沒有特別注意他是什麼時候升職的。據我的了解，他被招進來本來就是儲備要當主管的。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以他進來之後，你也不曉得他是多久的時間升任組長。另外再請教一下，您的侄女升任組長，他的前一任組長是不是有被懲戒？"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告，就我的了解，其實這個組長在之前就有一些問題產生，所以才會在外面再招募一個儲備的主管，所以他是有被懲戒的。"],["王委員鴻薇：他被懲戒，然後招募進來的人剛好就是您的侄女。從這整個爆料來看，我請總裁也聽一下，過去在我們國內的金融公營行庫裡面，也出現過董事長讓他的家人，或是合夥股東的小孩，一個一個進入公司。以我們財金公司來說，董事長是基層出身，我覺得你升任董事長沒有什麼問題；但你的侄子侄女也陸陸續續的進入同一家公司，個人覺得這個有利益衝突跟利益迴避的問題，並不適當，而且現在已經有員工來檢舉。我想請教總裁，中央銀行是不是有接獲過檢舉？快點，我的時間一直在走。"],["楊總裁金龍：有接獲檢舉。"],["王委員鴻薇：總裁有去了解嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：有，我們的業務單位有請他們的總稽核針對這個檢舉做報告。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以總裁有看過報告嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我有。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你認為這一切都合理、合法、合情嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：根據我們看到那個總稽核的這個報告，我個人覺得應該是還可以，只是就像委員在講的，這個是觀感的問題……"],["王委員鴻薇：當然有觀感問題！我覺得如果是一般的民間公司，家人都進公司，也就算了；但我們這個是國營事業……"],["楊總裁金龍：就是觀感的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：過去我們的國營事業包含我們的一些銀行也發生過這樣的狀況，但這終究是要避免的，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！這是觀感的問題，沒有錯。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以，請總裁還是要處理一下，好不好？不然的話，我們今天會繼續接獲這些檢舉函，而且他們認為檢舉了之後被秋後算帳，而有一些懲處。所以請總裁還有董事長能夠回去重新檢視，我也不希望再看到這樣的一些爆料。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["王委員鴻薇：你可能說你的稽核是你的任用都合理，可是同樣一個董事長之下，有兩個三親等相繼進入我們國營的金融機構，我覺得這就不適當，有違社會觀感，好不好？謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員的質詢，下一位請邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-2","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","黃珊珊","林思銘","李坤城","王世堅","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","邱志偉","陳冠廷","李柏毅"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00004"}}},{"id":"159136","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159136","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f63a6125f0fcd5d42ba53b8a5773cfe3d86f8ffab8834d9834a7ded5c40f3c2c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:01:42 - 12:11:54","影片長度":"00:10:12","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T12:01:42+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:11:54+08:00","duration":612,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.21596875,"end":8.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.709093750000001,"end":8.114093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.14284375,"end":104.06534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.84159375,"end":116.77221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.73409375000001,"end":128.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.80409375000002,"end":147.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.50596875000002,"end":146.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.53534375,"end":222.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.33784375000002,"end":235.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.67346875,"end":260.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.61159375000003,"end":254.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.36659375000002,"end":255.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.10846875000004,"end":305.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.57659375000003,"end":261.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.36346875000004,"end":275.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.00846875,"end":309.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.45096875,"end":320.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.95284375,"end":311.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.74909375000004,"end":319.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.26784375,"end":417.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.76721875000004,"end":430.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.91284375000004,"end":433.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.14846875,"end":449.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.17284375,"end":443.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.98659375000005,"end":446.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.88909375000003,"end":449.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.58096875,"end":449.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.66534375000003,"end":485.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.93096875000003,"end":451.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.20409375,"end":524.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.8772187500001,"end":555.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.46721875,"end":558.8803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.3190937500001,"end":559.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.38659375,"end":609.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.21846875,"end":609.6909687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.275,"end":8.256,"text":"謝謝昭緯 那有請葉次長好 次長早安那首先也要謝謝林益錦昭緯那今天排這個青年基本法那我基本上就是希望盡速立法然後有五個重點跟三個提醒要跟我們那個次長交流那我想我們那個吳思耀委員就在這上一屆吳思耀"},{"start":32.884,"end":56.976,"text":"立委就率先提出了青年基本法的草案那本屆我也納入青年團體的意見提出我的版本那這邊照片你可以看到就是由我參與召集的我們12位跨委員會的民進黨立委那我們連續兩個會期都把青年基本法列為優先法案所以我們真的就是跨委員會"},{"start":57.796,"end":70.26,"text":"非常關心這個法那不是只有就是教育文化委員會那我們也看到現在已經有18個跨黨派的版本那所以剛剛就是次長有講到那也有委員講到韓國有這個青年專法那其實不是只有韓國芬蘭跟盧森堡也都有"},{"start":77.842,"end":103.777,"text":"青年專法而且很重要的是聯合國的世界青年行動綱領也都有非常的具體說我們應該要做到什麼那比起我們的性別主流化那這是聯合國在推動的那我們早在20年前就開始做了可是青年主流化因為沒有一個好的法規位階那其實台灣在這部分還是很落後那我首先是想請教"},{"start":104.938,"end":127.389,"text":"市長 因為剛剛有聽 我想您已經蠻了解這個重點可不可以簡要跟我們說 您到現在為止 您認為這個法要處理哪些重點您個人認為最重要的我想就是說把這些青年 哪些面向需要國家照顧的包括提到就業 創業 居住等等這些面向"},{"start":129.466,"end":146.139,"text":"這該照顧面相我們要透過這個基本法把它明定出來然後也讓每一個這個該照顧面相是由哪一個機關哪一個部會讓大家寫清楚那我想就每一個部會就會按照這個基本法知道說這是我們要照顧的義務我們要按照這個脈絡來做好"},{"start":148.061,"end":167.379,"text":"謝謝所以次長您覺得是要把青年的哪些面向要照顧像我們的法條都有講到就是說不同的面向健康等等然後哪些部會該做什麼事情要做出來那謝謝您的重點我自己看到的重點有一點不同那也跟那個次長分享"},{"start":167.799,"end":187.617,"text":"我覺得第一個 青年身份的法制化當然就是剛剛有委員對年齡要怎麼樣的定義那我個人跟教育部看法比較相同就是我的版本是18歲到35歲我覺得斷在這是最合理的那第二個 青年的專責單位那我看到你們的報告比較清楚就是希望是教育部嘛"},{"start":188.417,"end":206.933,"text":"第三個就是各級政府建立青年的參與機制我覺得各級從中央不管是匯報或是什麼還有參與機制地方也要明定青年代表的法定地位這是剛剛比較少人討論到的那待會我會再談什麼叫做青年代表"},{"start":207.253,"end":222.268,"text":"那最後一個當然就是定期要公布青年政策白皮書雖然現在教育部有在努力可是並沒有一個法定的地位跟時間的規範那我覺得這五個重點都要明確才會有青年主流化那如果"},{"start":223.653,"end":239.111,"text":"策展不反對的話就是我們看到的重點不同那剛剛已經有人問過您了我再問一次就是剛剛說你們很快就會送給行政院是不是你們的版本跟委員報告目前我們的布版的查案已經擬定完成"},{"start":239.751,"end":260.203,"text":"因為裡面牽扯到很多的部會跟地方政府所以我們也要跟他們協調所以我們目前正在跟他們協調我們預計在一個月內會完成跟各部會跟地方政府的協調協調完成之後我們就會報行政院然後預告那我們預計在這個會期應該會有院版可以送這個會期"},{"start":261.644,"end":285.812,"text":"因為這個會期還有幾個月嘛還是希望盡快啦因為林一金委員就是他是遵重要等到院本啊要不然也可以率先排案等協商的時候再進來我們當然希望你們催促一下行政院越快是越好因為我想這個部分的差異精神都一致那看大家的版本就是說差異比較是在操作跟多麼的細緻的照顧那"},{"start":288.553,"end":303.605,"text":"好 那我想就是我們現在如果就差異的部分我有三個詢問是我特別關心的想在這提出來因為這個部分好像今天的報告教育部比較沒有寫到那麼具體第一個就是中央地方專責單位目前的規劃你們會明確的"},{"start":306.207,"end":320.619,"text":"指出他的規劃叫什麼嗎中央跟地方中央是教育部但地方的話因為地方自治的關係還有這個我們其實是尊重地方他們自己的編制這地方就是主要差異在這邊了解"},{"start":321.82,"end":347.362,"text":"這個部分我覺得中央跟地方專責的部分可以了解另外我想要以青年學生居住問題為例的話除了那個專責之外 民定跨部會的協調 權限也蠻重要的以青年目前蠻受困的居住問題來講的話我們看到學校宿舍教育部管 租屋困境是內政部管"},{"start":347.822,"end":371.153,"text":"社宅的規劃又是內政部你如果是大學畢業之後其實就是社宅會是他的需求那如果是大家也知道教育部雖然不斷的在支持就是宿舍的興建可是還是非常多人沒有辦法住進去所以租屋的議題如果沒有內政部協助的話其實教育部沒有辦法處理到租屋的部分"},{"start":371.673,"end":398.102,"text":"那另外就是很多大學生希望能簽戶籍到學校那這個是教育部所以其實如果沒有一個統籌協調的一個單位的話那光是教育部主責的話還是不夠所以這個是我想提醒的另外地方也是一樣雖然現在教育部管不到地方可是這個法應該是教育部主責可是它的法定地位也要讓地方政府重視我覺得難度不高"},{"start":399.983,"end":417.737,"text":"22個縣市已經有20個有專責單位21個有諮詢組織所以我覺得應該是跨黨派共識要明文入法全面建立地方也要有專責的單位那參與機制可以跟中央對接那這是我的第一個提醒那第二個提醒"},{"start":418.82,"end":430.754,"text":"因為時間的關係喔 那可能請次長就是能檢要回答你們目前關於青年代表參與的機制規劃是如何呢因為那個報告好像沒有寫到這個部分這幾下"},{"start":437.393,"end":458.282,"text":"各位委員報告我們這個青年參與的機制主要就是原本我們就是有這個親資會然後各個部會有各個部會的親資會然後這部分其實就是還是持續還是跟原本一樣是吧對那另外就是我們這邊剛才委員剛才也提到了就是說有很多這些事情是跨部會的"},{"start":459.262,"end":484.104,"text":"跨部會的所以我們在我們的草案裡面也有說行政院應該要來設置青年事務發展會報由行政院長來召集學者專家青年代表還有這個中央目的事業主管機關首長然後大家一起來開會這個會定期來開會所以這些很多跨部會該委員擔心的議題就由青年代表跟部會首長們跟院長一起來開會討論"},{"start":485.265,"end":503.022,"text":"那這個部分因為我之前剛好就是接到陳情還有處理這個代表的問題我是希望那個教育部這邊參考救治因為新制就是它有一些問題是原本的救治是有一個代表團然後選出代表"},{"start":503.482,"end":520.736,"text":"可是新制變成中央政府直接圈選那其實蠻可惜的我上一階段去反映可是並沒有改善那舊制反而是各縣市兒少代表可以票選中央兒少代表那這部分請參考舊制那另外呢我們如果看行政院親資會目前是25人那其實這裡面"},{"start":524.999,"end":546.792,"text":"百分之五十以上是三十一歲到三十五歲我個人是認為青年團體也認為說十八歲到二十五歲應該要保障更高目前只有四分之一相比於三十一歲以上的人他們其實發生的能力是更需要保障的所以也希望能夠在就是如何保障十八到二十五歲"},{"start":547.392,"end":555.619,"text":"不利處境的更多元然後更有一個由下而上的精神的青年代表機制這部分次長可以努力嗎"},{"start":556.745,"end":577.594,"text":"我們再待會兒來研議這樣好那最後因為時間已經到了那我想那個青年日的日期也希望能夠在裡面那我個人是寫8月12日那因為它是2010年聯合國開始的國際青年日我覺得這樣國際接軌也有青年團體希望更有本土的意味的那我想這部分也都希望能夠"},{"start":578.314,"end":598.984,"text":"一起討論那最後呢就是再次提醒這個跨部會非常的重要除了教育部之外我想明確的鑑定它的中央地方都有這樣子一個精神然後青年代表機制希望能夠有由下而上多元民主含榮的精神那也希望青年日這個部分如何選定教育部可以審慎考慮"},{"start":600.445,"end":608.539,"text":"以上三點 現在教育部我們希望盡快提出你們的草案版本行政院可以送來立法院我也會全力推動 感謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時1分）謝謝召委。有請葉次長。"],["主席：有請葉次長。"],["范委員雲：次長早安。首先也要謝謝林宜瑾召委今天排這個青年基本法，我基本上就是希望儘速立法，然後有五個重點跟三個提醒要跟次長交流。我想吳思瑤委員就在這裡，上一屆吳思瑤立委就率先提出了青年基本法草案，本屆我也納入青年團體的意見提出我的版本，這邊照片你可以看到由我參與召集的12位跨委員會的民進黨立委，我們連續兩個會期都把青年基本法列為優先法案，所以我們真的是跨委員會非常關心這個法，不是只有教育及文化委員會，我們也看到現在已經有18個跨黨派的版本。剛剛次長有講到，也有委員講到，韓國有青年專法，其實不是只有韓國，芬蘭跟盧森堡也都有青年專法，而且很重要的是，聯合國的世界青年行動綱領也都非常具體說我們應該要做到什麼。比起我們的性別主流化，這是聯合國在推動的，我們早在20年前就開始做了，可是青年主流化因為沒有一個好的法規位階，其實臺灣在這部分還是很落後。","我首先想請教次長，剛剛我有聽了，我想您已經滿了解重點了，可不可以簡要跟我們說，到現在為止您認為這個法要處理哪些重點，就是您個人認為最重要的？"],["葉次長丙成：我想就是把青年在哪些面向需要國家照顧的，包括提到就業、創業、居住等等這些面向，然後這些該被照顧的面向，我們要透過基本法把它明定出來，也讓每一個該照顧的面向是由哪一個機關、哪一個部會負責的寫清楚，我想每一個部會就會按照這個基本法，知道這個是我們要照顧的義務，我們要按照這個脈絡來做。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝。所以，次長，您覺得是要把青年的哪些面向要照顧，像我們的法條都有講到不同的面向，包括健康等等，然後哪些部會該做什麼事情要做出來，謝謝您的重點。","我自己看到的重點有一點不同，也跟次長分享，我覺得第一個，青年身分的法制化。剛剛有委員提到對於年齡要怎麼樣的定義，我個人跟教育部看法比較相同，我的版本是18歲到35歲，我覺得斷在這是最合理的。第二個，青年的專責單位。我看到你們的報告，比較清楚就是希望是教育部。第三個就是各級政府建立青年的參與機制。我覺得各級，從中央，不管是會報或是什麼，還有參與機制，地方也要明定。青年代表的法定地位──這是剛剛比較少人討論到的，待會我會再談什麼叫做青年代表！最後一個當然就是定期要公布青年政策白皮書。雖然現在教育部有在努力，可是並沒有一個法定的地位跟時間的規範。我覺得這五個重點都要明確，才會有青年主流化。如果次長不反對的話，因為我們看到的重點不同，剛剛已經有人問過您了，我再問一次，那就是剛剛說你們的版本很快就會送給行政院是不是？"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，目前我們部版的草案已經擬定完成，因為裡面牽扯到很多部會跟地方政府，所以我們也要跟他們協調，因此我們目前正在跟他們協調，我們預計在一個月內會完成跟各部會、跟地方政府的協調，協調完成之後，我們就會報行政院，然後預告，我們預計在這個會期應該會有院版可以出來。"],["范委員雲：這個會期？"],["葉次長丙成：對。"],["范委員雲：因為這個會期還有幾個月，還是希望儘快啦！"],["葉次長丙成：是。"],["范委員雲：因為林宜瑾委員是尊重要等到院版，要不然也可以率先排案，等協商的時候再進來，我們當然希望你們催促一下行政院，越快是越好！因為我想這個部分的差異，精神都一致，看大家的版本，差異比較是在操作跟多麼細緻的照顧。","我想我們現在如果就差異的部分，我有三個詢問是我特別關心，想在這提出來的，因為這個部分，好像今天教育部的報告比較沒有寫到那麼具體。第一個就是中央地方專責單位，目前的規劃你們會明確指出它的規劃叫什麼嗎？中央跟地方。"],["葉次長丙成：中央是教育部，但地方的話，因為地方自治的關係，還有我們其實是尊重地方他們自己的編制，這地方主要差異就是在這邊。"],["范委員雲：了解。我覺得中央跟地方專責的部分可以了解。另外就是我想要以青年學生居住問題為例的話，除了專責之外，明定跨部會協調權限也滿重要的，以青年目前滿受困擾的居住問題來講的話，我們看到學校宿舍是教育部管，租屋困境是內政部管，社宅規劃又是內政部，如果是大學畢業之後，其實就是社宅會是他的需求。大家也知道，教育部雖然不斷在支持宿舍的興建，可是還是非常多人沒有辦法住進去。所以租屋的議題如果沒有內政部協助的話，其實教育部沒有辦法處理到租屋的部分。另外就是很多大學生希望能遷戶籍到學校，這個是教育部，所以如果沒有一個統籌協調的單位，光是教育部主責的話還是不夠，這個是我想提醒的。另外，地方也是一樣，雖然現在教育部管不到地方，可是這個法應該是教育部主責，它的法定地位也要讓地方政府重視，我覺得難度不高，22個縣市已經有20個有專責單位，21個有諮詢組織，所以我覺得應該是跨黨派共識，要明文入法，全面建立，地方也要有專責的單位、參與機制可以跟中央對接，這是我的第一個提醒。","第二個提醒，因為時間的關係，可能請次長能夠簡要回答，你們目前關於青年代表參與的機制規劃是如何呢？因為那個報告好像沒有寫到這個部分。"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，我們的青年參與機制主要就是原本我們就有青諮會。"],["范委員雲：對。"],["葉次長丙成：然後各個部會有各個部會的青諮會，這部分還是會持續。"],["范委員雲：就是跟原本一樣是不是？"],["葉次長丙成：對，另外就是委員剛才也提到，有很多事情是跨部會的，所以在我們的草案裡面也有說到行政院應該要設置青年事務發展會報，由行政院長來召集學者、專家、青年代表，還有中央目的事業主管機關首長，大家一起來開會，這個會定期開會。所以很多跨部會剛剛委員擔心的議題，就由青年代表跟部會首長們、跟院長一起來開會討論。"],["范委員雲：好。關於這個部分，因為我之前剛好接到陳情，有處理代表的問題，我是希望教育部參考舊制，因為新制有一些問題，原本的舊制是有一個代表團，然後選出代表，可是新制變成中央政府直接圈選，那其實滿可惜的，我上一階段去反映，可是並沒有改善，舊制反而是各縣市兒少代表可以票選中央兒少代表，這部分請參考舊制。另外，我們如果看行政院青諮會目前是25人，其實這裡面50%以上是31歲到35歲，我個人是認為，青年團體也認為，18歲到25歲應該要保障更高，但目前只有四分之一，相比於31歲以上的人，他們發聲的能力其實是更需要保障的，所以也希望能夠保障18到25歲不利處境的，有更多元、更有一個由下而上的精神的青年代表機制，這部分次長可以努力嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：我們再帶回來研議。"],["范委員雲：好。最後因為時間已經到了，我想青年日的日期也希望能夠在裡面，我個人是寫8月12日，因為它是2010年聯合國開始的國際青年日，我覺得這樣可以跟國際接軌，也有青年團體希望更有本土的意味，我想這部分也都希望能夠一起討論。","最後就是再次提醒，跨部會非常的重要，除了教育部之外，我想明確界定中央、地方都有這樣子一個精神，然後青年代表機制希望能夠有由下而上、多元、民主、涵容的精神，也希望青年日這個部分如何選定，教育部可以審慎考慮，以上三點。謝謝教育部，我們希望儘快提出你們的草案版本，行政院的可以送來立法院，我也會全力推動，感謝。"],["葉次長丙成：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員，次長請回。","我們接下來請吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-2","speakers":["林宜瑾","黃捷","林楚茵","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","林德福","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","范雲","吳思瑤","邱志偉","陳培瑜","李坤城"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基\n本法草案」案；三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；四、審查委員吳思瑤等\n47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；六、\n審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法\n草案」案；八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；九、審查委員王美惠等17人\n擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十一、審\n查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十二、審查委員葛如鈞等19人擬具「青年基本\n法草案」案；十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十四、審查委員魯明哲\n等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；\n十六、審查委員葉元之等 20 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十七、審查委員林德福等 20 人擬具\n「青年發展基本法草案」案；十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案 (僅進行\n詢答)","agenda_id":"1142601_00009"}}},{"id":"159135","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159135","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f15b8b26f9e0fdba0e83d902c8d6dd6c286f8ffab8834d9836075f793af8843da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:59:03 - 12:10:05","影片長度":"00:11:02","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:59:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:10:05+08:00","duration":662,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.03909375,"end":3.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.91221875,"end":4.6715937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.806593750000001,"end":5.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.80221875,"end":5.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.20659375,"end":11.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.219093750000003,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.180968750000002,"end":15.606593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.19721875,"end":24.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.78346875,"end":17.817218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.03659375,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.49971875,"end":26.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.64284375,"end":28.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.785968750000002,"end":31.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.469093750000003,"end":32.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.13971875,"end":36.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.75096875,"end":42.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.26471875,"end":44.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.74971875,"end":45.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.930968750000005,"end":48.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.64784375,"end":53.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.91284375,"end":53.929718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.929718750000006,"end":54.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.908468750000004,"end":75.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.36221875000001,"end":67.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.00659375000001,"end":80.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.01909375000001,"end":76.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.03971875,"end":93.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.73784375000001,"end":94.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.03721875000001,"end":98.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.44159375000001,"end":101.34846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.80409375,"end":118.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.94909375,"end":120.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.45096875,"end":120.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.31159375000001,"end":134.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.65284375,"end":124.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.91409375,"end":127.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.68971875,"end":132.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.24221875,"end":136.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.99721875,"end":135.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.85784375,"end":155.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.47784375,"end":139.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.64534375,"end":146.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.31159375000001,"end":148.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.51284375,"end":159.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.49971875,"end":162.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.69784375,"end":160.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.71034375000002,"end":177.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.35534375,"end":166.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.41346875000002,"end":171.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.83096875,"end":173.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.75846875000002,"end":187.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.37721875000003,"end":189.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.99284375000002,"end":193.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.43159375000002,"end":198.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.44784375,"end":194.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.81471875000003,"end":197.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.53159375,"end":198.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.54846875,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.03784375,"end":200.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.26534375,"end":201.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.78846875000002,"end":213.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.41284375,"end":203.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.69409375,"end":214.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.46159375000002,"end":214.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.47846875000002,"end":214.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.52909375000002,"end":217.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.54596875000001,"end":215.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.09409375,"end":240.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.36409375000002,"end":218.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.33846875,"end":219.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.20659375000002,"end":226.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.47909375,"end":237.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.16221875000002,"end":240.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.63471875000002,"end":254.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.68534375000002,"end":240.92159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.52909375000002,"end":242.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.21909375,"end":255.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.58159375,"end":291.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.08346875,"end":258.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.02721875000003,"end":267.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.51659375,"end":267.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.23784375,"end":269.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.05034375,"end":283.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.08346875,"end":287.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.73284375000003,"end":288.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.58034375,"end":293.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.07784375,"end":330.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.41096875,"end":295.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.28409375,"end":298.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.30471875,"end":300.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.05909375000005,"end":306.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.71284375000005,"end":308.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.55221875,"end":310.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.37409375000004,"end":315.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.40784375000004,"end":315.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.44159375000004,"end":315.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.71159375,"end":315.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.96346875,"end":324.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.52346875,"end":334.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.26971875000004,"end":336.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.60284375000003,"end":337.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.41284375000004,"end":341.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.81721875,"end":347.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.82471875000005,"end":352.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.58346875,"end":356.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.56596875,"end":400.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.12159375000005,"end":365.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.06221875,"end":368.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.02284375000005,"end":376.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.07284375,"end":380.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.67596875000004,"end":382.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.73346875000004,"end":391.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.88534375,"end":391.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.53471875,"end":394.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.83846875,"end":395.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.65596875,"end":411.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.93409375000005,"end":404.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.29596875000004,"end":410.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.27034375000005,"end":412.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.26596875,"end":416.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.62409375000004,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.97846875000005,"end":417.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.46784375000004,"end":417.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.65346875,"end":421.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.04971875,"end":422.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.93534375,"end":437.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.10721875,"end":431.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.94221875000005,"end":433.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.70096875,"end":439.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.87784375,"end":464.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.43159375000005,"end":460.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.68846875,"end":467.85659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.18596875000003,"end":467.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.77221875000004,"end":477.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.62721875000005,"end":483.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.65159375,"end":488.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.81534375,"end":490.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.46471875000003,"end":495.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.10159375,"end":501.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.25221875000005,"end":519.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.13534375,"end":528.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.7078437499999,"end":531.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.8803437500001,"end":540.1997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.0190937500001,"end":535.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.55409375,"end":542.4272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.7309687500001,"end":543.1865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.67596875,"end":544.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.04284375,"end":545.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.1059687500001,"end":555.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.9778437500001,"end":556.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.61909375,"end":567.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.24721875,"end":560.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.6384687500001,"end":583.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.2265937500001,"end":601.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.9897187500001,"end":588.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.49159375,"end":590.5378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.7065937500001,"end":593.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.5322187500001,"end":600.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.74284375,"end":611.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.8428437499999,"end":609.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.96909375,"end":619.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.46159375,"end":620.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.2378437500001,"end":629.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.80284375,"end":623.4778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.7647187499999,"end":624.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.06409375,"end":626.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.0928437499999,"end":632.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.11784375,"end":632.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.64096875,"end":637.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.8047187500001,"end":662.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.2790937500001,"end":654.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.86909375,"end":659.0503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.0078437500001,"end":661.2947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.1384687500001,"end":662.9653437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.582,"end":4.331,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請梁總裁"},{"start":10.233,"end":12.294,"text":"我們看到相關的媒體報導有說新增的房貸一季狂減1.5萬戶第四季比第三季減了大概1.5萬件"},{"start":33.166,"end":60.222,"text":"那個我看房市的這個329這個329檔期那個推案但是新案衰減然後市場疲軟然後請問您這個第七波信用管制之後你覺得現在你的看法現在房市有反轉走低嗎我跟委員報告就是說我們當時第七波的主要的目的有三個9月19號"},{"start":62.223,"end":80.696,"text":"對我們9月19號我們有目的有三個第一個就是說那時候的預期的心理是非常強的就是上漲的預期心理不過呢現在呢我想委員應該要同意他已經有下來的趨勢預期心理有下降房地產一定會漲的這個預期心理下降一定會漲的那個預期心理是已經扭轉回來了這是第一個第二個呢我們是希望這個資源就是說不動我們的那個信用資源不要太"},{"start":92.063,"end":119.845,"text":"要讓他能夠比較帶給我們的那個無作用自宅的消費者那這一點呢也有慢慢的上升這是第二個第三個呢也就是說他的集中度呢他的集中度就是說我們的銀行的那個放款的集中度在不動產這慢慢的下來了所以也有達到也有達到這個目的但是那個總裁"},{"start":121.486,"end":144.764,"text":"銀行放款的集中度 72就是那一條你們說存放比多少你們有沒有同時注意到各個地區的這種差異在你們的觀察裡頭有同時注意到嗎各個地區是不是我舉個具體的例子給您我去年的時候我在財委擔任召委的時候我請了我們相關單位到金門去開了一次會議當地的金融機構"},{"start":147.406,"end":174.56,"text":"都過來開會我們發現我們金門的銀行比如土銀好了您猜看看他的存放比是多少您知道嗎您猜看看他的存放比如果說就我聊就當地的土銀的金門分行因為我沒有就是說很特地對了不過一般來講比較就像離島的話我再猜不過也許就不對了沒關係他的存款應該是比換款還多"},{"start":177.813,"end":200.581,"text":"那存穩應該大概在比較合理的區間應該在哪裡一般來講的話合理是要72%合理是72%對不對對 它合理都70幾%我不曉得那個你知道金門的土銀或是台銀它是多少我是不曉得15%15%台銀也是差不多16%那就很低對 就是非常的低那也就是說"},{"start":201.861,"end":228.987,"text":"那也就是說金門的民眾大部分都是存款啦因為金門民眾不需要貸款嗎因為金門沒有企業當然不是這個原因啦當然不是說因為我們也是有相關產業而是說金門的很多存款存款不少但是很多的貸款金融機構他的這種"},{"start":229.887,"end":255.589,"text":"執行率也好或者他的放款意願也不想所以基本很多的存款就被的資金就被同樣是土地銀行或是台灣銀行好了這個錢就被移到讓台灣來使用我的意思因為事實上現在發生的情形就是這樣子所以當你們在說什麼存放筆啊在說這個東西信用管制的時候其實我覺得央行也要注意也要稍微注意一下各個區域怕說很多"},{"start":256.59,"end":279.956,"text":"比較像我們來講我們偏遠地區的錢存在以後全部都集中到了比較都會區可能台我不知道可能台北因為我沒有研究台北可能台北來高雄這種比較都會區去使用所以造成這個如果以房地產來講的話有時候會造成這樣的錢會集中的不是只有說欸你說是30%多少%這樣的幾%的這個差別而是有時候資金的移動"},{"start":280.276,"end":308.603,"text":"也會影響各地區這個可能也是我已經說了也沒有錯央行證也許也可以去了解一下這個第一點嘛這個會影響這個相對就某些地方就會變成炒房就會比較嚴重某些地方經濟發展比如說不一定是房地產說經濟發展企業想要融資變得很辛苦有時候這個也是有影響所以我們除了注意說它的一個比例以外還要注意區域的有沒有均衡的發展其實這個也是很重要對啦沒有錯啦"},{"start":308.963,"end":330.518,"text":"這個是第一點然後第二點關於房地產有關就是說之前就是訂所謂的豪宅那當然這個財政部在金管那邊管那個豪宅的總價不過我覺得後來事實上這個建商有他的做法他們就把坪數弄很小單價弄很高所以我看最近有一個新的政策就是讓單價一定的"},{"start":331.84,"end":345.839,"text":"每個地區嘛一定的金額以上也要比較比較可以比較不能太超過不然也是不能帶這個也是算是一個很好的政策啦這個才能真正讓房價走向一個比較平衡的這個發展不然"},{"start":348.067,"end":364.565,"text":"這樣子對你這樣的做法你們之前有的做好對百姓並沒有幫助啊因為反而是建商賺更多因為他把單價他把坪數弄很小20坪變10坪但單價做很多做高了做高了反而讓房價又漲起來然後事實上建商獲利也沒有變少"},{"start":365.466,"end":381.433,"text":"您瞭解我在說什麼?我知道您看這個不動產的放款我看到您有相關的報導有找銀行來喝咖啡有三家銀行對於這些按計管控提交具體改善方案"},{"start":383.353,"end":411.52,"text":"那我也請您關注一下各個區域也許銀行也要請他們提供一下他各個區域是不是有太過不均衡的發展那熱錢集中在一個地方那個地方容易炒作這個是不是也請列入這個列入這個考量那還會有第八波嗎因為我們是9月19嘛那時候我們問的時候9月19到12月有一段期那現在已經又要三月了吧等於是半年了啦 將近半年了那你看你下去的發展呢"},{"start":414.183,"end":438.123,"text":"我想我們是滾動性檢討啦滾動性檢討 所以也有可能有 也有可能沒有啦這個是由理事來決定啦有理事決定喔 對但是我還講說那個 我像有相關政策像平數的單價那個倒是不是也是一個 還有各區的喔 可以看一下民間的相關反應啦好 那這個第一季齁 這個"},{"start":439.924,"end":461.519,"text":"你們央行理事會議預期去年的時候去年也是這個時候你們預期台電4月調漲電價那有做出 祭出預防性的升級辦今年現在3月你們3月10號開會了那現在聽起來台電又有可能聽起來又好像可能調漲這個電價那你們今年會一樣採取這樣的預防性升級剛我有聽別人這個也是由理事來決定"},{"start":467.884,"end":490.12,"text":"我知道你會這樣回答但是去年因為你們在業務報告也有跟我們提到要考量未來台鐵票價水電公用事務費率調漲那相關的預測值會上漲所以你的標準答案就是說你要看你以前是否但看起來的話如果比照去年的做法可能會傾向這個方面"},{"start":493.254,"end":516.745,"text":"還是有理解 沒關係我想請問你關於虛擬貨幣的事情美國總統川普簽行政命令要正式成立戰略比特幣儲備確保美國在全球加密貨幣市場的領導地位但是我們央行說的是虛擬貨幣不宜列為準備資產"},{"start":518.406,"end":539.933,"text":"因為央行是說比特幣價格波動劇烈容易受金融市場資金鏈消息鏈影響沒有辦法具備貨幣應有的交易媒介計價單位及價值儲藏三大功能比較像是一種投機或是投資性質的商品這是我們央行說的但是美國川普總統卻對這個大力提倡就是說"},{"start":546.155,"end":571.829,"text":"你這樣還是認為還是這樣認為嗎?就是說比特幣這類的虛擬資產你的看法跟我們川普總統的看法不大不大一致是啦我想這個我們會密切注意他啦不過以目前我們的態度呢我們還是覺得就是說在台灣要把它就是說把它變成一個我們的準備變成一個外圍存底的一部分"},{"start":572.729,"end":590.013,"text":"當然啦 外存底的一部分跟它是戰略儲備因為我們政府的戰略儲備我不曉得是有哪些啦但是我們外存底的這個部分呢到在目前呢我們是沒有考慮就是說要把就還是沒有考慮沒有考慮沒有考慮虛擬貨幣啦還是沒有考慮虛擬貨幣啦"},{"start":593.715,"end":609.774,"text":"既然就是說美國都是要把他列入這個我們會正視他我們會密切注意他也是會密切注意我們會密切注意他那您看看川普總統還頒了一個行政命令他說禁止創建數位美元像那個央行數位貨幣CPTC嘛那"},{"start":612.077,"end":636.655,"text":"他說這個CBDC是威脅金融體系穩定 禁止在美國建立但是我們不是有在推嗎?我們央行有在推嗎?有在推CBDC那這個跟美國全球領導國家的做法也不一樣那這樣會不會延緩我們推這個的腳步我覺得就是說"},{"start":637.896,"end":658.932,"text":"基本上呢我們看看其他的國家呢也沒有就是說是因為川普總統他的這個政策因為基本上其他的國家他還是往前推的啦那基本上中央銀行呢也會還是我們還是按照既定的一個行程往前推啦往前推進就對了好 謝謝你是 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1086,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時59分）謝謝主席，我們請楊總裁。"],["主席：請總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：陳委員早。"],["陳委員玉珍：辛苦了！自從去年的「金龍海嘯」，楊金龍「金龍海嘯」威力挺大的，我們看到相關的媒體報導說，新增的房貸一季狂減1.5萬戶，第四季比第三季減了大概1.5萬件，然後我看房市的329檔期推出的新案也衰減，市場疲軟。請問您，在第七波信用管制之後，就你的看法，現在房市有反轉走低嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，我們當時推出第七波信用管制主要的目的有三個……"],["陳委員玉珍：9月19號？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。9月19號推出，我們的目的有三個，第一個就是那時候房價上漲的預期心理是非常強的，不過現在我想委員也應該同意，它已經有下來的趨勢……"],["陳委員玉珍：預期心理有下降嘛？就是房地產一定會漲的這個預期心理下降了，第一個目的達到了。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，一定會漲的那個預期心理已經扭轉回來了，這是第一個。第二個，我們希望能夠讓我們的信用資源多貸款給無自用住宅的消費者，這一點也有慢慢的上升，這是第二個。第三個也就是銀行放款在不動產的集中度也慢慢下來了，所以也有達到這個目的。"],["陳委員玉珍：總裁，但是銀行放款的集中度，第七十二條之二那一條，就是你們說存放比多少這一個，你們有沒有同時注意到各個地區的差異？在你們的觀察裡頭，有同時注意到嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：各個地區，是不是？"],["陳委員玉珍：對。我舉例，我舉一個具體的例子給您。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：去年我在財委會擔任召委的時候，我請了相關單位到金門去開了一次會議，也請當地的金融機構都過來開會，我們發現我們金門的銀行，比如土銀好了，您猜看看它的存放比是多少，您知道嗎？您猜看看。"],["楊總裁金龍：它的存放比，如果就我了……"],["陳委員玉珍：就是當地的土銀金門分行，金門當地的。"],["楊總裁金龍：我沒有很特地針對這部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，沒關係。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過一般來講，像離島的話，我在猜，不過也許就不對……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係。"],["楊總裁金龍：它的存款應該是比放款還多。"],["陳委員玉珍：那存放比比較合理的區間應該大概在哪裡？"],["楊總裁金龍：一般來講的話，合理是要72%。"],["陳委員玉珍：合理是72%，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，合理都是七十幾percent，我不曉得那個……"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道金門的土銀或是臺銀這種公股的銀行……"],["楊總裁金龍：它是多少，我是不曉得啦。"],["陳委員玉珍：15%，15 percent，臺銀也是差不多16 percent。"],["楊總裁金龍：15%，那就很低了。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，就是非常的低啦。"],["楊總裁金龍：那也就是說，金門的民眾大部分都是存款，因為金門……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，那是因為金門的民眾不需要貸款嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為金門沒有企業……"],["陳委員玉珍：當然不是啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：金門沒有企業，它只有觀光……"],["陳委員玉珍：不是、不是，當然不是這個原因啦！我們也是有相關產業，金門有很多存款，存款不少……"],["楊總裁金龍：是啊、是啊。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是很多的貸款，金融機構的執行率也好，或者放款意願也不強，所以金門很多的存款、資金就被土地銀行或是臺灣銀行移到讓臺灣來使用，我的意思是這個……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，不過因為……"],["陳委員玉珍：事實上現在發生的情形就是這樣子。所以當你們在說什麼存放比，在說信用管制這個東西的時候，其實我覺得央行偶爾也要稍微注意一下各個區域，像我們來講，我們偏遠地區的錢存了以後，全部都集中到比較都會區，我不知道，因為我沒有研究，可能臺北、高雄這種比較都會區去使用……"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：如果以房地產來講的話，有時候會造成這樣的錢會集中，不是只有您說的30%、多少%這樣的差別，而是有時候資金的移動也會影響到各個地區，這個可能也是……"],["楊總裁金龍：是的，沒有錯，委員說的也沒有錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：請央行也許也可以去了解一下喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：這是第一點，這個也是會影響，相對地某些地方就會變成炒房比較嚴重，某些地方的經濟發展，不一定是房地產，比如企業想要融資變得很辛苦，有時候這個也是有影響。所以我們除了注意它的比例外，也要注意區域有沒有均衡的發展……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：其實這個也是很重要。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，沒有錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個是第一點。然後第二點有關於房地產，之前政府有訂所謂豪宅的總價，當然這是財政部跟金管會那邊在管，不過我覺得後來事實上建商也有他的作法，他們就把坪數弄得很小，單價弄很高，所以我看最近有一個新的政策，就是讓每個地區一定的金額以上也不能太超過，不然也是不能貸。這個也算是一個很好的政策，我覺得這個才能真正讓房價走向一個比較平衡的發展，不然這樣子對……"],["楊總裁金龍：沒錯。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們之前有一個作法對百姓並沒有幫助，反而讓建商賺更多，因為他把坪數弄很小，本來20坪變成10坪，但單價做高了，單價做高以後反而讓房價又漲起來，然後事實上建商獲利也沒有變少。您了解我在說什麼嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：關於不動產的放款，我看到相關的報導說央行有找銀行來喝咖啡，有三家銀行，對於所謂的按季管控、提交具體改善方案，這些都有提出來。我也請您關注一下各個區域，也許也要請銀行他們提供一下，它各個區域是不是有太過不均衡的發展，熱錢集中在一個地方，那個地方就容易炒作，這部分是不是也請列入考量？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：那還會有第八波嗎？因為我們推的那時候是9月19日，到12月有一段期間，現在已經又要到3月了，等於將近半年了，您看接下去的發展呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想我們是滾動式檢討啦。"],["陳委員玉珍：滾動式檢討？所以有可能有，也有可能沒有，還沒有定案？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，這是由理事來決定。"],["陳委員玉珍：由理事決定？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是我還是要講有些相關的政策，像坪數、單價那部分，還有各區的，可以看一下民間的相關反映。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好。去年第一季，也是這個時候，央行理監事會議預期台電4月調漲電價，所以祭出預防性的升息半碼加以因應，今年現在3月，你們3月20日又要開會了嘛，現在聽起來台電又有可能要調漲電價，那你們今年會一樣採取這樣的預防性升息嗎？剛剛我有聽別的委員也問過。"],["楊總裁金龍：這個也是由理事來決定。"],["陳委員玉珍：理事來決定，我知道你會這樣回答，但是因為你們在業務報告內也有提到，考量未來臺鐵票價、水電等公用事業費率調漲，相關的預測值會上漲，所以，你的標準答案就是你要看理監事會議，但看起來如果比照去年的作法，可能會傾向這個方面嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：還是由理事會決定。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，OK，沒關係。我想請問關於虛擬貨幣的事情，美國總統川普簽署了行政命令，要正式成立戰略比特幣儲備，這個有嘛？要確保美國在全球加密貨幣市場的領導地位，但是我們央行說的是，虛擬貨幣不宜列為準備資產，因為央行說比特幣價格波動劇烈，容易受金融市場資金面、消息面影響，沒有辦法具備貨幣應有的交易媒介、計價單位及價值儲藏三大功能，比較像是一種投機或是投資性質的商品，這是我們央行說的，但是美國川普總統卻對這個大力提倡，請問你現在還是這樣認為嗎？就是對於比特幣這類的虛擬資產，你的看法跟川普總統的看法不大一致。"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦。我想我們會密切注意它，不過以目前我們的態度，我們還是覺得，在臺灣要把它變成我們外匯存底的一部分，當然，外匯存底的一部分跟它是戰略儲備不一樣，我們政府的戰略儲備我不曉得是有哪些，但是我們外匯存底這個部分，在目前我們沒有考慮要把這個……"],["陳委員玉珍：就還是沒有考慮虛擬貨幣啦，對嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有考慮，是，我們還是沒有……"],["陳委員玉珍：還是沒有考慮虛擬貨幣啦！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是既然美國都要把它列入了，我們會正視它，我們會密切注意它……"],["陳委員玉珍：也是會密切注意。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們會密切注意它。"],["陳委員玉珍：川普總統還頒了一個行政命令，禁止創建數位美元。像央行的數位貨幣CBDC。他說CBDC威脅金融體系穩定、個人隱私和美國的主權，禁止在美國建立。但是我們不是有在推嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們有。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們央行有在推嗎？有在推CBDC？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們有。"],["陳委員玉珍：那這個跟美國這個全球領導國家的作法也不一樣，這樣會不會延緩我們推CBDC的腳步？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。我覺得基本上我們看看其他的國家也沒有因為川普總統的政策而改變，其他的國家還是往前推的，中央銀行也還是往……"],["陳委員玉珍：就是照既定的……"],["楊總裁金龍：我們還是按照既定的行程往前推。"],["陳委員玉珍：往前推進就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們還是這樣。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳玉珍委員的質詢。下一位請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-2","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","黃珊珊","林思銘","李坤城","王世堅","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","邱志偉","陳冠廷","李柏毅"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00004"}}},{"id":"159134","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159134","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f915c2a492e3375bafc7dc3b86466824c86f8ffab8834d9838255030c01a61e3e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:47:45 - 12:03:54","影片長度":"00:16:09","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:47:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:03:54+08:00","duration":969,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.590343750000002,"end":22.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.06534375,"end":24.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.832843750000002,"end":25.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.95096875,"end":25.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.96784375,"end":26.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.33909375,"end":48.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.17159375,"end":45.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.424718750000004,"end":45.509093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.13721875,"end":63.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.953468750000006,"end":64.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.38784375,"end":80.01846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.41596875,"end":74.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.44034375000001,"end":85.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.41846875,"end":116.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.39659375000001,"end":137.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.44409375,"end":146.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.65784375,"end":206.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.78346875000003,"end":215.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.18721875,"end":215.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.82846875,"end":258.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.14221875000004,"end":312.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.43784375,"end":327.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.38471875000005,"end":371.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.21346875,"end":433.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.06534375,"end":404.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.61721875,"end":558.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.4709687500001,"end":559.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.96034375,"end":560.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.51721875,"end":560.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.1415937500001,"end":577.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.90346875,"end":573.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.1897187500001,"end":604.3584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.56096875,"end":579.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.5859687500001,"end":580.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.56846875,"end":583.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.1072187500001,"end":592.6303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.57534375,"end":593.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.91659375,"end":596.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.96721875,"end":597.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":602.9578437499999,"end":609.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.5903437500001,"end":605.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.51409375,"end":648.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.26721875,"end":648.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.7397187500001,"end":649.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.98846875,"end":666.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.57659375,"end":679.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.93721875,"end":685.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.40471875,"end":701.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":701.60909375,"end":775.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":775.38659375,"end":777.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":777.0403437500001,"end":799.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":797.77971875,"end":799.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":799.3997187500001,"end":802.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":799.61909375,"end":813.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":803.92221875,"end":804.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":804.8840937500001,"end":805.4578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":811.85346875,"end":813.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":813.8784687500001,"end":813.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":813.96284375,"end":833.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":814.35096875,"end":819.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":832.6940937500001,"end":832.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":833.03159375,"end":847.0209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":835.6472187500001,"end":836.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":836.0859687500001,"end":836.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":836.3390937500001,"end":836.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":837.0984687500002,"end":837.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":837.13221875,"end":837.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":837.53721875,"end":837.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":837.87471875,"end":837.9084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":837.9084687500001,"end":838.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":838.22909375,"end":838.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":847.0209687500001,"end":872.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":872.26596875,"end":889.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":872.28284375,"end":872.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":889.9509687500001,"end":895.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":895.9753437500001,"end":905.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":905.03721875,"end":911.1628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":905.89784375,"end":906.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":911.41596875,"end":961.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":961.72034375,"end":966.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":965.1459687500001,"end":965.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":965.8884687500001,"end":966.6140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":966.64784375,"end":968.9597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":967.91346875,"end":968.92596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.679,"end":22.483,"text":"主席各位同仁大家好我是林倩琦今天在法治司法委員會第一次發言我們先請黃次長麻煩次長"},{"start":28.53,"end":46.622,"text":"首先我先感謝上個禮拜部長這邊有來本席的辦公室那我們做了一些意見的交流感謝他對於這個歐陸法系還有海洋法系的這個系統做了一個跟本席做了一個很精闢的這個研析那但是本席也跟他這邊來"},{"start":50.105,"end":64.415,"text":"這個表達了我問政的一個立場所以本席在這個問政立場比較有一個長明的立場跟觀念來跟這個會會做一個溝通那我也希望我們能夠以民為念所以"},{"start":65.716,"end":91.871,"text":"我們在行政單位的這個行政本位或許在業務的執行上我們可以更寬廣的來做一個處理那接下來我們就談到民眾我相信很多人都會談到這個議題也是大家現在很關心的那就是這個詐騙那本席在這個媒體上幾乎每一天至少一到二天都會看到不同形式的詐騙的case"},{"start":93.112,"end":103.637,"text":"所以我們也知道台灣的詐騙案件也越來越嚴重那財損的金額也逐年攀升那本席這邊所拿到的資料2023年就前年詐騙的案件財損是88億但是到了去年就變成502億那增幅已經到了5.7倍那這個數字也展現出我們這個真的詐騙日益猖獗"},{"start":117.543,"end":145.678,"text":"那麼每天至少有336起那算一下每一個鐘頭都有十幾件正在發生那這實在是非常嚴重那我相信不管是立法院或者是行政院這邊我們都針對相關的這個措施也一直在做處理但是其實我們好像都趕不上這個詐騙蔓延的這樣一個速度所以在假投資的部分是在這裡面近年來佔的比例非常高的那手法也一直變化規模也越來越大"},{"start":146.858,"end":162.706,"text":"但是現在台北地檢署有一個斬金的行動聽起來目前好像也有一些效度所以從12月啟動我們這邊有一些數據已經羈押了52名嫌疑人但是受害者大概有5584人初步估算的這個金額大概有170億我相信你們的數據應該非常的清楚"},{"start":170.43,"end":193.192,"text":"那最主要呢 詐騙集團都透過這種假投資的網站那或者是我們常用的這樣一個系統齁那麼運用假 養 套 殺的手段 又使民眾來上當那大部分的金錢投進去 那我們很多民眾 尤其是這近期一兩天我相信你們看到那個 有那個知識"},{"start":194.053,"end":212.702,"text":"含量非常高的人那也很有經驗結果還是把一生的這個積蓄付諸流水因為這個詐騙集團所以我們看了其實心裡都非常的難過那這個部分不知道法務部可以簡單的跟本席說明一下你們看到幾乎每一天日新月異的這樣子的詐騙的行為我們能怎麼處理在現階段"},{"start":216.204,"end":240.112,"text":"各位報告,的確如委員所講,詐騙案件目前在我們地檢署的案件量也是大宗,民眾也非常有感那詐欺反詐這個行為,其實不是只有單一部會可以完成的啦所以它有一個跨部會,集合所有部會來做相關的源頭管理跟我們後端的這個查緝啦那本部所負責的是有關後端的查緝跟犯罪被害人的補償嘛"},{"start":241.112,"end":258.573,"text":"那就本部這一塊把本部當積極的查緝或讓犯罪被害人得到他財損上的補償但這個還不夠他需要是源頭端各部源頭端他就要去抑制這種詐欺犯罪所以他其實要全國動起來全國各部會通力合作的一個模式"},{"start":261.229,"end":284.748,"text":"謝謝次長其實本席在不同的委員會那今天是第一次在司法法制那先前其實是在這個教育文化那本席也有專注在某一些委員會針對這樣子的議題做一些討論那當然就如你所講的其實這是一個全國性的問題那甚至已經是國安問題了所以為什麼今天要這樣講是因為幾乎每一天我們真的趕不上這個速度"},{"start":285.528,"end":309.161,"text":"那當然也聽到您講對全國性那我為什麼一開始在講這個行政本位就是您講後端前端當然那個第一線的我們都有這樣一個經驗那包括我們在學校那我想你如果常常跟民眾接觸那你會知道大概民眾沒有辦法搞得清楚那麼多他其實也沒有那個必要知道這麼多但是呢我們如何讓這樣子的狀況減輕"},{"start":312.583,"end":327.092,"text":"那如何更積極的作為這是本席今天針對這個議題要討論的內容好 那接下來呢我們談到這個法律的手段現在很難有效的追蹤那你們是後端的那資金的流動跟後來的賠償那我想這個部分呢"},{"start":328.473,"end":341.191,"text":"在嶄新行動雖然現在有一點效能但是其實早上本席聽到幾位委員的這個質詢那我們也看到這個詐騙集團的祖先在國外那早上也有委員談到你們這個你們簡稱的國兩司是吧"},{"start":344.836,"end":370.249,"text":"在去年的這個針對詐騙的這個案件數可能有一些數量上的差異你們自己就我想早上應該你們都有聽到那本席在讀你們的業務內容的時候其實那個數據跟早上有一些委員對出來的數據是不一樣的所以你能怎麼樣處理這個犯罪源頭或最主要的守謀是在國外的這個議題"},{"start":371.529,"end":385.825,"text":"各位報告我們事實上溯源打詐是我們重點目標之一事實上我們去年通過的這個打詐專法就國外他向國內境內來實施犯罪的話我們有一個加重期限二分之一的規定"},{"start":386.866,"end":414.922,"text":"那換句話就是說我們對這一個另外有它的守模我們作為比較重的一個獨立犯罪的規範換句話說在法律面我們是有注意到但就我們打炸的工具方面我們去年也通過了好幾個打炸工具嘛所謂的打炸司法通法法也好 科技偵查手段也好那我相信有這些科技工具打炸的工具之後我相信我們可以更加的溯源來打炸那我已經有提到國外境外打炸這部分事實上"},{"start":415.362,"end":433.149,"text":"因為台灣他畢竟處境國外艱難所以我們現在透過我們在國外的法務秘書也好移民秘書也好相關的人員也好透過一個跟國外執法單位的合作其實透過相關的努力還是會有一些成效更為報告"},{"start":434.309,"end":456.963,"text":"謝謝次長 首先可能你們那個數據要先補兌給相關關心的這個委員那最主要是希望我們能夠警惕啦那現在真的是一個國安的問題所以您剛才講的那個工具我希望在短時間內我們也希望能夠再看到一些成效那打炸釋法的通過當然給了你們一些工具但是這個成效我們希望短中長期都能夠有一些交代 好不好"},{"start":457.942,"end":485.432,"text":"接下來因為你們在業務報告裡面25頁其實有談到遇政革新所以本席這邊要談一個監獄超收的問題這個很明顯的剛才也有委員這邊提到台灣的矯正體系我們現在有超收的困境目前以我這邊的資料大概我們有五萬五千個收容人包括被判刑的受刑人被羈押的被告以及正在接受保安處分跟感化教育的少年犯等等"},{"start":486.272,"end":503.469,"text":"那麼他們被分散在全國51個矯正機關當中那數據看來這個超收的這個狀況非常嚴重那我不知道你們也是不是在趕這個都會化大部分集中在北部那我們拿台北看守所為例那麼原先的核定人數是2134人但是實際上現在有2606人"},{"start":508.314,"end":525.924,"text":"超收率達到了22%這應該很高啊然後另外呢在整個司法程序當中積壓的等待時間也非常的長那這反映出一個問題在這樣一個狀況下是不是資源匱乏就是你們沒有辦法迴避的一個核心問題因為它是很基礎的嘛"},{"start":526.804,"end":546.462,"text":"那所以呢在分類的這個原則上收容的分類原則上成年人未成年人死刑犯一般犯的分開收容我想你們都很難以達成所以高雄艷草的第二間為例那麼死刑犯跟少年犯混住的情形也已經有點違反國際公約"},{"start":548.764,"end":576.595,"text":"所以這個部分我不知道這個法務部是不是有注意到這監獄裡面不同層級的犯罪人的一個基本人權的問題跟委員報告委員提供的那個超收兩成多那個是指北部啦但是我們前台的收容人並沒有超收他是負3.49所以我們核定收容額在6萬出頭但是實際上"},{"start":577.295,"end":592.88,"text":"所以你們合定的綜合能力比本席這邊還多一些那北部確實是有這個操作情形就如本席剛才所指出來的他畢竟還是有這樣一個問題但是他沒有辦法用平均值來談這件事情沒有存在所以是不是可以請"},{"start":593.42,"end":606.448,"text":"請相關單位這個部分趕快先做一個檢討然後也把精確的內容跟有可能改進的短中長期的方案跟本席的辦公室這邊做一個回應好嗎檢要報告我們八德外醫間跟彰化"},{"start":608.929,"end":624.774,"text":"謝謝市長 不好意思啦 雖然您檢要 但是其實也有一些個案 您剛才已經談到巴德外醫街那本席是指出這個問題 在北部 你們不用去敢跟人家多會話那所以 現在有超收的個案情形 那也請你們多做注意 好不好"},{"start":625.274,"end":647.796,"text":"今天是本席第一次質詢我是先把問題點出來那當然後續本席這邊還要再跟你們有更多的一個溝通那也希望你們做一個回應那本席可能要進行本席今天最後一個議題啦所以先把問題點出來那希望我們能夠做一個討論如果部裡面確實有這樣的情形那就做一個調整跟改進好不好謝謝"},{"start":650.038,"end":665.327,"text":"好那最後一個問題我們要談青少年犯罪率的問題那本是因為過去在教育文化委員會那對於學生對於青少年這個部分也非常關注那在我們教育領域經常談到少子化的問題"},{"start":666.976,"end":685.461,"text":"造成了很多衝擊那甚至少子化的問題現在也是一個大家公認的國安問題好但是裡面今天我要提出來這個青少年犯罪的這個問題我覺得非常嚴重是為什麼呢因為我們當然知道現在的青少年的人口是降低的"},{"start":686.462,"end":699.451,"text":"好像每一年現在出生率是越來越低那青少年的人口其實從幾年前就開始降低了但是很嚴重的是過去八年之間青少年犯罪的人口竟然上升了47%"},{"start":701.713,"end":721.065,"text":"那涉案的人數更從三萬六千多人增加到四萬兩千多人那所以在青少年人口數降低的過程當中我們竟然整個犯罪率的比例是越來越高那我們已經談到了少子化結果比例竟然如此高你們有沒有擔心這個問題這是很嚴重的"},{"start":723.166,"end":740.855,"text":"那另外呢 那我們看到我這邊得到的相關資訊許多青少年的犯罪比例的那個內容大概以詐欺跟毒品最多那意味著很多年輕人被犯罪組織來吸納然後呢 他們也參與了某一些詐騙集團"},{"start":742.296,"end":757.784,"text":"那我要問一下法務部對於這樣的趨勢有了解跟有什麼因應政策嗎那本席所拿到的資料的調查也指出當然家庭功能的失調智能邊緣兒少沒有辦法被好好的輔導"},{"start":758.584,"end":774.613,"text":"那網路帶來的負面影響當然這是整個我們國家性的問題但是呢你們跟教育部還有社會福利體系的合作有沒有辦法來有效識別高風險的青少年病假也不到"},{"start":775.633,"end":800.898,"text":"這可不可以很簡單的回應各位報告首先那個少年刑法因為少年案件它是司法院所主管的它有特別的規範所以我們檢察官就少年事件除非他是犯了少年刑事案件才會到我們檢察官這邊來所以原則上少年犯或者是曝險少年他都是先行政後司法進入我們司法院的少年法庭去處理所以相關的統計數字市長這是本席在一開始提出來的當然我們的行政本會說對這個業務是他處理的"},{"start":805.219,"end":818.662,"text":"那個業務是他處理的本席的問政是針對一件事情相關的委員會本席都會去發問問題我不是說這不法務部的責任法務部也注意到我們有更積極的就是說我們在處理成少共犯的問題少年雖然不歸我們管但有可能他背後是成年或者共犯是少年所以我們現在積極在研議成少共犯如何的加強我們檢察官這邊對成少共犯的追緝"},{"start":832.546,"end":847.103,"text":"好的 所以承受共犯應該是你們目前的一個手段方法那你們短中長期的一個目標值或者是目標內容是不是可以跟本席的這個辦公室這邊來做一個回應好嗎"},{"start":847.583,"end":867.856,"text":"我簡單30秒回應就好這書面再跟委員報告少年犯罪如果少年警察他已經介入偵查的話我們希望檢察官能夠從司法警察那邊得到相關的指向因為他畢竟是司法院少年法庭所掌管的業務第一個我們希望多得到一些情質第二個陳少共犯我們要求司法警察跟檢察官必須要追到幕後的相關的成年的共犯"},{"start":868.876,"end":888.973,"text":"其實少年他通常不會是主謀後面的共犯才是重要的那所以在你未來給本席的這個相關的資料裡面可不可以給本席你們過去一段時間目前成少共犯就做到您剛才所指涉的那個部分大概比例有多少那未來你們期待能夠做到什麼樣子的比例畢竟一個KPI"},{"start":890.114,"end":905.555,"text":"KPI不是絕對但是它可以是一個比較具體的讓我們知道這個成效好不好跟委員報告做法一定可以啦成效可能短期內它可能沒有一個具體的數字啦KPI的部分是不是我們把相關的做法跟委員報告相關的施政做法跟委員報告好 謝謝"},{"start":906.816,"end":926.912,"text":"所以基本上最後本席這邊要提醒青少年再犯的問題青少年再犯其實比例也蠻高的我這邊得到的資料是犯罪率高達再犯的犯罪率高達了25%那也意味著四分之一進入到司法體系的少年沒有辦法擺脫犯罪的循環"},{"start":927.853,"end":950.063,"text":"那這顯示我們或許在青少年的這個矯正與輔導的機制的效果上可能還要再精進那所以過去的幾年政府究竟投入了多少的資源在矯正與輔導上那我剛才其實也聽到有一些委員在關心這個事情那是不是你們過去所做的本席這邊就過去五年內這個狀況到底你們現在做的如何"},{"start":953.404,"end":967.2,"text":"那未來你們在經費的編列上或是想要做到的一個程度上給本席一個數據跟具體的內容指標好不好部分再麻煩我們小政署就少繳銷的部分的相關數據跟提供好謝謝市長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1257,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（11時47分）主席、各位同仁，大家好。我是林倩綺，今天在司法及法制委員會第一次發言，我們先請黃次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：次長好。首先我感謝上個禮拜部長有來本席的辦公室，我們做了一些意見的交流，感謝對於歐陸法系，還有海洋法系的系統跟本席做了一個很精闢的研析，但是本席也跟他表達了我問政的立場，所以本席在問政比較有一個長明的立場跟觀念來跟貴會溝通，我也希望我們能夠以民為念，所以在行政單位的行政本位，或許在業務的執行上，我們可以更寬廣的來處理。"],["黃次長謀信：好，沒問題。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來我們就談到民眾，我相信很多人都會談到這個議題，也是大家現在很關心的，那就是詐騙！本席在媒體上幾乎每天，至少一到二天都會看到不同形式的詐騙case。我們知道臺灣的詐騙案件越來越嚴重，財損的金額也逐年的攀升，本席所拿到的資料，2023（前）年詐騙案件財損是88億，但是到了去年就變成502億，增幅已經到了5.7倍，這個數字也展現出詐騙真的是日益猖獗。每天至少有336起，算一下每一個鐘頭都有十幾件正在發生，這實在是非常嚴重！我相信，不管是立法院或者是行政院，都針對相關措施也一直在處理，但是好像都趕不上詐騙蔓延的速度。","尤其假投資的部分，在這裡面是近年來所占比例非常高的，手法也一直變化，規模也越來越大。但是現在臺北地檢署有一個斬金行動，聽起來目前好像也有一些效度，從12月啟動，這邊有一些數據，已經羈押了52名嫌疑人，但是受害者大概有5,584人，初步估算金額大概有170億，這個是數據，我相信你們的數據應該非常清楚。詐騙集團最主要都透過假投資網站，或者是我們常用的系統，運用養、套、殺的手段誘使民眾來上當，大部分的金錢投進去，很多民眾，尤其是近期一、兩天，我相信你們看到有知識含量非常高的人、也很有經驗，結果還是把一生的積蓄付諸流水，因為詐騙集團！我們看了其實心裡都非常的難過，這個部分法務部可以簡單的跟本席說明一下，你們看到幾乎每一天日新月益這樣子的詐騙行為，在現階段能怎麼處理？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，的確如委員所講的，詐騙案件目前在地檢署的案件量也是大宗，民眾也非常有感，詐欺、反詐行為其實不是只有單一部會可以完成的，所以行政院特別有一個跨部會，結合所有部會做相關的源頭管理跟後端的查緝。本部所負責的是有關後端的查緝跟犯罪被害人的補償，就本部這一塊，本部當積極查緝，讓犯罪被害人可以得到他財損上的補償。但這個還不夠，它需要的是在源頭端，在各部會的源頭端就需要去抑制這種詐欺犯罪，所以其實是要全國動起來，採取全國各部會通力合作的模式。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝次長。本席今天是第一次在司法及法制委員會，先前其實是在教育及文化委員會，本席也有專注在某一些委員會針對這樣子的議題做一些討論。當然就如同你所講的，其實這是一個全國性的問題，甚至已經是國安問題了，所以為什麼今天要這樣講？是因為幾乎每一天我們真的趕不上這個速度，當然也聽到您講，對！全國性！我為什麼一開始在講行政本位？就是您講後端，前端當然是第一線的，我們都有這樣的經驗，包括我們在學校。我想你如果常常跟民眾接觸，你會知道大概民眾沒有辦法搞得清楚那麼多，他其實也沒有那個必要知道這麼多，但是我們如何讓這樣子的狀況減輕？如何更積極的作為？這是本席今天針對這個議題要討論的內容。","接下來我們談到法律的手段現在很難有效的追蹤，你們是後端的資金流動跟後來的賠償，我想這個部分，斬金行動雖然現在有一點效能，但是早上本席聽到幾位委員的質詢，我們也看到詐騙集團的主嫌在國外，早上有委員談到，你們簡稱的國兩司在去年針對詐騙的案件數可能有一些數量上的差異，我想早上應該你們都有聽到，本席在讀你們的業務內容的時候，那個數據跟早上有一些委員對出來的數據是不一樣的，所以你能怎麼樣處理這個犯罪源頭，或最主要的首謀在國外的議題？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，溯源打詐是我們的重點目標之一，事實上，我們去年通過的打詐專法，就國外向國內境內實施犯罪的話，我們有一個加重其刑二分之一的規定；換句話說，我們對於首謀有另外一個比較重的獨立犯罪規範；也就是說，在法律面，我們是有注意到，但就打詐的工具方面，我們去年也通過了好幾個打詐工具，通保法……"],["林委員倩綺：所謂的打詐四法，應該給你們很多的工具。"],["黃次長謀信：對，通保法也好，科技偵查手段也好，我相信有這些科技打詐的工具之後，我們可以更加的溯源來打詐。委員有提到國外、境外打詐這部分，事實上，因為臺灣在國外的處境畢竟艱難，所以我們現在透過我們在國外的法務秘書也好、移民秘書也好、相關的人員也好，透過跟國外執法單位的合作，透過相關的努力，還是會有一些成效啦！跟委員報告。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝次長。首先，可能你們那個數據要先補對給相關關心的委員。最主要是希望我們能夠警惕，現在真的是一個國安的問題，所以您剛才講的那個工具，我希望在短時間內能夠再看到一些成效。打詐四法的通過當然給了你們一些工具，但是這個成效，我們希望短、中、長期都能夠有一些交代，好不好？","接下來，因為你們在業務報告第25頁有談到獄政革新，所以本席要談監獄超收的問題。這個很明顯，剛才也有委員提到，臺灣的矯正體系現在有超收的困境，以我的資料，目前我們大概有5萬5,000個收容人，包括被判刑的受刑人、被羈押的被告，以及正在接受保安處分跟感化教育的少年犯等等，他們被分散在全國51個矯正機關當中，就數據看來，超收的狀況非常嚴重，我不知道你們是不是在趕都會化，大部分都集中在北部。我們拿臺北看守所為例，原先的核定人數是2,134人，但是實際上現在有2,606人，超收率達到了22%，這應該很高！另外，在整個司法程序當中，羈押的等待時間也非常長，這反映出一個問題，在這樣的狀況下，是不是資源匱乏？這就是一個你們沒有辦法迴避的核心問題？因為它是很基礎的嘛！所以在收容的分類原則上，成年人、未成年人、死刑犯、一般犯的分開收容，我想你們都很難以達成。以高雄燕巢的第二監為例，死刑犯跟少年犯混住的情形也已經有點違反國際公約，所以這個部分，我不知道法務部是不是有注意到監獄裡面不同層級犯罪人的基本人權問題？"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員報告，委員提供的超收兩成多那個狀況是指北部，但是全臺的收容人並沒有超收，它是負3.49，也就是我們核定收容額在六萬出頭，但實際上是五萬八。"],["林委員倩綺：所以你們核定的收容人數比本席這邊還多一些嘛？"],["周署長輝煌：五萬八千多。"],["林委員倩綺：北部確實是有超收的情形，就如同本席剛才所指出來的？"],["周署長輝煌：是。"],["林委員倩綺：它畢竟還是有這樣的問題，但它沒有辦法用平均值來談這件事情沒有存在嘛！"],["周署長輝煌：是。"],["林委員倩綺：所以是不是可以請相關單位就這個部分趕快先檢討？然後也把精確的內容跟有可能改進的短、中、長期方案，跟本席的辦公室回應，好嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：跟委員簡要報告，八德外役監跟彰化看守所……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝署長，不好意思，雖然您說簡要，但是其實也有一些個案，您剛剛已經談到八德外役監，本席是指出這個問題，在北部你們不用去跟人家趕都會化，所以現在有超收的個案情形，也請你們多注意，好不好？今天是本席第一次質詢，我是先把問題點出來，當然後續本席還要再跟你們有更多的溝通，也希望你們回應。","本席可能要進行今天的最後一個議題，所以先把問題點出來，希望我們能夠討論，如果部裡面確實有這樣的情形，那就要調整跟改進，好不好？謝謝。","最後一個問題，我們要談青少年犯罪率的問題，本席因為過去在教育及文化委員會，對於學生、對於青少年這個部分也非常關注，在教育領域經常談到少子化的問題造成了很多衝擊，甚至少子化的問題現在也是一個大家公認的國安問題，但是今天我要提出來的青少年犯罪這個問題，我覺得非常嚴重，是為什麼呢？因為我們當然知道，現在青少年的人口是降低的，每一年出生率越來越低，青少年人口其實從幾年前就開始降低了，但很嚴重的是，過去8年之間，青少年犯罪人口竟然上升了47%，涉案的人數更從三萬六千多人增加到四萬兩千多人，所以在青少年人口數降低的過程當中，竟然整個犯罪率的比例是越來越高，我們已經談到了少子化，結果比例竟然如此高，你們有沒有擔心這個問題？這是很嚴重的！另外，我得到的相關資訊，許多青少年犯罪內容的比例大概以詐欺跟毒品最多，意味著很多年輕人被犯罪組織吸納，然後他們也參與了某一些詐騙集團。我要問一下，法務部對於這樣的趨勢有了解，跟有什麼因應政策嗎？本席所拿到的資料調查也指出，家庭功能的失調、智能邊緣兒少沒有辦法被好好的輔導、網路帶來的負面影響，當然這是我們整個國家性的問題，但是你們跟教育部，還有社會福利體系的合作，有沒有辦法有效識別高風險的青少年，並加以輔導？這可不可以很簡單的回應？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，首先，因為少年案件是司法院所主管的，它有特別的規範，所以檢察官就少年事件，除非他是犯了少年刑事案件才會到檢察官這邊來。原則上，少年犯或者是曝險少年也好，都是先行政後司法，進入司法院的少年法庭去處理，所以相關的統計數字……"],["林委員倩綺：次長，這就是本席在一開始提出來的。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["林委員倩綺：當然你們的行政本位會說，對，這個業務是他處理的、那個業務是他處理的，本席的問政是針對一件事情，相關的委員會本席都會去follow。"],["黃次長謀信：委員，沒有問題，我不是說這不是法務部的責任，法務部也注意到……"],["林委員倩綺：對。但是重點就是，是不是可以更有一點同理心？"],["黃次長謀信：我跟委員報告，沒有問題，我們有更積極的在處理成少共犯的問題，少年雖然不歸我們管，但他有可能背後是成年，或者共犯是成年，所以我們在積極研議成少共犯，如何加強檢察官對成少共犯的追緝。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，所以成少共犯應該是你們目前的一個手段、方法。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["林委員倩綺：那你們短、中、長期的目標值或者是目標內容，是不是可以跟本席辦公室回應，好嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我簡單30秒回應就好，書面再跟委員報告。少年犯的部分，如果少年警察已經介入偵查的話，我們希望檢察官能夠從司法警察那邊得到相關的資料，因為它畢竟是司法院少年法庭所掌管的業務，這是第一個，我們希望多得到一些情資。第二個，成少共犯，我們要求司法警察跟檢察官必須要追到幕後相關的成年共犯；其實少年通常不會是主謀，後面的共犯才是重要的。"],["林委員倩綺：所以在你未來給本席的相關資料裡面，可不可以給本席你們過去一段時間，就目前成少共犯做到您剛才所指涉的那個部分，大概比例有多少？未來你們期待能夠做到什麼樣子的比例？KPI不是絕對，但它可以是一個比較具體的，讓我們知道成效，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，作法一定可以，成效可能短期內沒有一個具體的數字，至於KPI的部分，是不是我們把相關作法跟委員報告？就是將相關施政、作法跟委員報告。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：基本上，最後本席要提醒青少年再犯的問題，青少年再犯的比例其實也滿高的，我得到的資料是再犯的犯罪率高達25%，那也意味著四分之一進入到司法體系的少年沒有辦法擺脫犯罪的循環，這顯示我們或許在青少年的矯正與輔導機制的效果上可能還要再精進。過去幾年政府究竟投入了多少資源在矯正與輔導上？我剛才也聽到有一些委員在關心這個事情，針對過去五年內的狀況，到底你們現在做得如何？未來你們在經費的編列上，或是想要做到的程度上，給本席一個數據跟具體的內容指標，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：這部分再麻煩矯正署就少矯校部分的相關數據跟委員提供。"],["周署長輝煌：好，會後提供。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：麻煩矯正署處理，謝謝。","我們先處理會議時間，上午會議時間持續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","接下來請林委員擔任會議主席，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員倩綺代）：現在請吳召集委員宗憲進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","柯建銘","王義川","吳思瑤","黃國昌","王鴻薇","沈發惠","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00011"}}},{"id":"159133","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159133","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770ff0a47e2107c5e1a36de99780e8e5978686f8ffab8834d983709bb89bbee775365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:58:10 - 12:02:55","影片長度":"00:04:45","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:58:10+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:02:55+08:00","duration":285,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.430343750000002,"end":11.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.320343750000003,"end":11.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.180968750000002,"end":13.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.42534375,"end":15.488468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.90471875,"end":25.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.39409375,"end":63.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.90284375,"end":74.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.92221875,"end":78.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.20846875000001,"end":80.27159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.59221875,"end":87.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.18596875,"end":91.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.07971875000001,"end":94.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.42534375000001,"end":97.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.61909375,"end":102.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.60534375,"end":115.05096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.38846875,"end":132.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.92159375,"end":137.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.83221875,"end":167.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.44346875000002,"end":168.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.13534375,"end":178.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.78784375,"end":179.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.04096875000002,"end":179.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.10846875000001,"end":190.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.37846875000002,"end":179.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.38096875000002,"end":208.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.33159375000002,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.02346875,"end":210.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.32284375,"end":211.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.33971875,"end":212.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.99346875,"end":217.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.92534375000002,"end":220.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.48596875,"end":222.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.79784375000003,"end":229.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.98659375000003,"end":256.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.91034375000004,"end":266.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.07784375,"end":269.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.50784375,"end":272.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.49471875,"end":272.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.76471875000004,"end":273.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.73471875,"end":284.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.20596875,"end":284.64471875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.445,"end":15.004,"text":"好 謝謝主席那我們弄一下投影片有請主委 謝謝"},{"start":25.693,"end":44.811,"text":"主委吳安辛苦了有一個時事題但是其實也是您的主管業務棒球最近很夯我想時間有限我們就不再多說而這個夯其實就帶動了周邊商品的商機我想您一定可以理解我們來看下一張在這一次WBC資格賽的商品販售的部分"},{"start":45.512,"end":66.36,"text":"引發了很多的討論發生了什麼事情呢今年的2月4號負責這一次WBC資格賽商品販售的單位發了這一張預購宣傳把所有球員跟教練我再次強調所有球員跟教練都列入了商品清單大家很開心好下一張結果呢2月4號剛剛發了那個預購宣傳單到了2月5號中職聯盟的副秘書長到了2月6號的球員工會都質疑這個授權有問題"},{"start":75.163,"end":102.68,"text":"他們質疑這個廠商應該沒有取得合法的授權好到下一張結果這個廠商的賬號自己竟然很囂張的說好喔這個廠商說的他說好喔我們還沒有因為未被授權而告過希望這不會是第一次救命主委你的嘴巴都皺起來了對不對你一定想說你看了什麼對不對這中間有沒有可能涉及廣告不實的問題我覺得這會是公平會的業務對不對好我們來往下看"},{"start":104.616,"end":131.784,"text":"到底WBC資格賽商品販售有沒有可能涉及廣告不實我繼續跟主委您報告到了2月19號這家業者又出了另外一個全新的公告剛時間點是2月4號2月5號2月6號到2月19日中間一定發生一些事情這個業者就說因為參賽名單調整有部分人員的商品沒有辦法販售但是我們發現這個調整沒有辦法販售的部分這裡面還包含了教練團"},{"start":133.004,"end":161.242,"text":"而教練團理應說不會受到參賽名單的調整而受到影響好 下一張所以呢當時就有一個球評還發表了相關的言論他評價這個事件那他問說你們是不是沒有取得授權就掀開預購那我想這也是這一次所有球迷而且所有熱情支持台灣隊的球迷所擔心的事情那目前為止我們非常清楚球迷並沒有公權力去查證這件事情但是我相信公評會因"},{"start":162.482,"end":187.52,"text":"應該有相關的公權力對於我剛剛說的廣告不實的部分做一些調查我這邊下一張好我們查了廣告不實的相關樣態有這麼多表第五個項目五表示或表證委稱他人技術合作或授權者我這樣的解讀是不是正確主委委員所講的是對的因為如果你沒有得到合法產生的授權你對外廣告卻說這是要銷售你也取得授權這當然就是屬於不實廣告一個類型"},{"start":188.22,"end":209.365,"text":"就委員提到這個案子我們事後會去會去了解事後好太好了下一張很開心這麼快速聽到主委的認同所以我這邊要求很清楚就是第一個我想請公平會就這個案子進行查查釐清是否涉及廣告不實的問題我這邊的期限本來是約是壓兩個月內提供相關調查進度跟延伤狀況不知道時間上是不是允許兩個月內我們會盡快"},{"start":213.092,"end":221.899,"text":"是不是 因為我們需要時間 因為相關的當事人還有一些事件是 那主委您覺得就工作時間上我們我們彼此抓個時間好不好"},{"start":222.924,"end":247.638,"text":"四個月可以好四個月沒問題四個月我們不是我們希望不是看到只是延益啟動而是已經有些行為了好嗎好有些動作好那接下來我要談建議運動文化賽事周邊商品多有獨家授權的特性而這其中可能衍生實際上會取得授權卻公開販售的樣態那考量相關商品販售的單一壟斷特質我要拜託你們跟教育部跟文化部進行相關爭議的因應討論"},{"start":249.099,"end":273.59,"text":"因為這件事情絕對不會只是個案後續一定還會有其他的事情這個部分公平會有辦法承擔相關的跨部會的溝通嗎委員是說要跟教育部文化部來進行請他們根據一些實際現場的案例跟你們進行相關的討論後續可能再衍生其他的問題這個可以啊這個我們可以來召集這些部會來進行那一樣壓四個月嗎"},{"start":275.765,"end":284.171,"text":"一樣四個月好謝謝主委那我們這兩個事情就這麼往下發展好不好我們辦公室也會積極來關心拜託主委了謝謝好謝謝主席謝謝主委謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":834,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時58分）好，謝謝主席。我們弄一下投影片。有請主委，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委午安，辛苦了！有一個時事題，但是其實也是您的主管業務。棒球最近很夯，時間有限，我們就不再多說。這個夯其實就帶動了周邊商品的商機，我想你一定可以理解。我們來看下一張。","在這一次WBC資格賽商品販售的部分引發了很多的討論，發生了什麼事情呢？今年2月4號負責這一次WBC資格賽商品販售的單位發了這一張預購宣傳，把所有球員跟教練……我再次強調，把所有球員跟教練都列入了商品清單，大家很開心。好，下一張。","結果2月4號才剛發了預購宣傳單，到了2月5號中職聯盟的副秘書長及2月6號球員工會都質疑這個授權有問題，他們質疑這個廠商應該沒有取得合法的授權。好，下一張。","結果這個廠商的帳號自己竟然很囂張地說：好喔！我們還沒有因為未被授權而告過，希望這不會是第一次。啾咪！主委，你的嘴巴都皺起來了，對不對？你一定想說你看了什麼，對不對？這中間有沒有可能涉及廣告不實的問題，我覺得這會是公平會的業務，對不對？好，我們來往下看。","到底WBC資格賽商品販售有沒有可能涉及廣告不實，我繼續跟主委您報告。到了2月19號，這家業者又出了另外一個全新的公告。剛剛的時間點是2月4號、2月5號、2月6號，到2月19號這中間一定發生了一些事情。這個業者就說：因為參賽名單調整，有部分人員的商品沒有辦法販售。但是我們發現這個調整沒有辦法販售的部分還包含了教練團，而教練團理應說不會受到參賽名單的調整而受到影響。好，下一張。","所以當時就有一個球評還發表了相關的言論，他評價這個事件。他問：「你們是不是沒取得授權就先開預購？」我想這也是這一次所有球迷，而且是所有熱情支持臺灣隊的球迷所擔心的事情。目前為止，我們非常清楚球迷並沒有公權力去查證這件事情，但是我相信公平會應該有相關的公權力對於我剛剛說的廣告不實的部分做一些調查。下一張。","我們查了廣告不實的相關樣態有這麼多，項目五「表示或表徵偽稱他人技術（合作）或授權者」。主委，我這樣的解讀是不是正確？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員所講的是對的，因為如果你沒有得到合法廠商的授權，你對外廣告卻說這是要銷售、你有取得授權，這當然就是屬於不實廣告的一個類型。所以委員提到這個案子，我們事後會去了解。"],["陳委員培瑜：事後？太好了！下一張。很開心這麼快速聽到主委的認同，所以我這邊的要求很清楚。第一個，我想請公平會就這個案子進行查察，釐清是否涉及廣告不實的問題。我這邊的期限本來是押兩個月內提供相關調查進度跟研商狀況，不知道時間上是不是允許？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們會儘快，因為我們需要時間，相關的當事人還有一些事證，可以再……"],["陳委員培瑜：是。主委您覺得就工作時間上，我們彼此抓一個時間好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：4個月可以。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，4個月，沒問題。我們希望不是看到只是研議啟動，而是已經有一些行為了，好嗎？要有一些動作。","接下來我要談，鑑於運動、文化賽事周邊商品都有獨家授權的特性，而這其中可能衍生實際上會取得授權，卻公開販售的樣態。考量相關商品販售的單一壟斷特質，我要拜託你們跟教育部、跟文化部進行相關爭議的因應討論，因為這件事情絕對不會只是個案，後續一定還會有其他的事情。這個部分公平會有辦法承擔相關的跨部會溝通嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員是說要跟教育部、文化部來進行……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，請他們根據一些實際現場的案例跟你們進行相關的討論，後續可能再衍生其他的問題。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：這個可以啊！我們可以召集這些部會來進行討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：那一樣押4個月嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：一樣4個月。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主委，那我們這兩個事情就這麼往下發展，好不好？我們辦公室也會積極來關心。拜託主委了！謝謝主席！謝謝主委！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝培瑜委員。","下一位請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請馬文君委員、馬文君委員、馬文君委員不在。","請葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者之外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於1週內以書面答復並副知本會。","本日議程處理完竣，謝謝大家。現在散會。","散會（12時3分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-2","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","陳培瑜"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00003"}}},{"id":"159132","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159132","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fc6d30d62860b93c56de99780e8e5978686f8ffab8834d98379d122fef1d5156d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:51:27 - 11:57:56","影片長度":"00:06:29","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:51:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:57:56+08:00","duration":389,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":10.054718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.83346875,"end":23.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.49971875,"end":25.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.883468750000002,"end":26.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.60784375,"end":35.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.51909375,"end":37.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.21909375,"end":39.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.19346875,"end":47.618468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.52971875,"end":48.884093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.66034375,"end":50.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.010343750000004,"end":54.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.87909375,"end":55.431593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.26284375,"end":57.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.080968750000004,"end":62.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.53596875,"end":64.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.73846875,"end":63.565343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.20659375000001,"end":69.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.52221875000001,"end":76.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.57284375,"end":70.75409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.55909375,"end":79.37721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.73159375,"end":88.45596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.79346875,"end":99.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.66096875000001,"end":100.04909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.62284375,"end":101.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.87159375,"end":104.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.17909375,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.35159375,"end":110.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.79846875000001,"end":116.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.19409375000001,"end":118.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.13471875,"end":119.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.75909375,"end":122.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.61096875000001,"end":128.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.81659375,"end":132.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.10721875000002,"end":140.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.22534375,"end":133.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.13221875000002,"end":138.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.40534375000001,"end":143.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.42221875,"end":144.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.90721875,"end":148.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.00346875,"end":152.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.51346875000002,"end":154.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.53846875000002,"end":157.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.71096875,"end":158.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.36909375000002,"end":160.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.08596875,"end":161.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.50784375,"end":164.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.70159375,"end":164.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.62971875000002,"end":165.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.89534375000002,"end":167.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.52784375000002,"end":176.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.11721875,"end":177.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.83846875,"end":180.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.71159375000002,"end":184.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.96409375000002,"end":185.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.01034375,"end":195.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.55721875,"end":198.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.18971875000003,"end":220.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.84034375000002,"end":225.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.83534375000002,"end":233.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.41221875000002,"end":237.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.17096875000001,"end":241.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.90034375000002,"end":242.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.57534375,"end":247.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.07659375000003,"end":250.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.60784375000003,"end":252.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.07159375,"end":257.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.00346875,"end":259.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.14659375,"end":265.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.89221875000004,"end":271.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.94284375,"end":267.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.44034375,"end":277.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.04659375,"end":282.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.45096875,"end":284.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.18471875,"end":286.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.63596875,"end":288.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.06596875,"end":292.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.90909375,"end":302.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.32971875000004,"end":306.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.15596875,"end":321.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.56721875,"end":323.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.03096875,"end":338.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.50534375,"end":360.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.86909375000005,"end":376.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.46159375,"end":384.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.88221875000005,"end":385.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.55721875,"end":386.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.19846875,"end":386.94096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.97,"end":22.447,"text":"那我們下一位請盧明財委員 盧明財委員 盧明財委員不在王美惠委員 王美惠委員 王美惠委員不在請翁曉琳委員質詢謝謝趙偉 首先請陳主委好 請主委"},{"start":34.939,"end":57.558,"text":"委員早是 陳主委好我想您大概很知道我們在這個會期立法院有一個很重要的法案將要推動就是媒體議價法您知道我們這個會期的重要的法案是 我知道 我了解您對於媒體議價法的看法是如何"},{"start":58.758,"end":75.912,"text":"這個議題其實在幾年前就開始我們持續有在關注跟研析所以從公平會的角度呢委員如果了解公平會的角度的話我們原則上我們是鼓勵協商鼓勵平台業者跟媒體業者來協商那協商的過程當中如果遇到平台業者有刻意的杯葛"},{"start":76.593,"end":88.346,"text":"那我們會提供競爭法上的一個分析跟協助那當然如果協商的過程當中有涉及到數位平台業者有涉及到公平法一些不法的行為我們本來以公平法就可以處理"},{"start":88.854,"end":110.394,"text":"您認為說從我們現在國家的國力來講我們有這個條件跟美國來協商嗎跟美國或者這些重要的社群平台或是在網路上面的這些影音平台我們有這個能力可以跟他們去進行協商嗎進行合理的協商"},{"start":110.794,"end":113.997,"text":"我想公平會我覺得我不太適合去說有沒有這個能力但是我們會確保那個協商的管道的存在事實上本席還蠻質疑公平會的角色你們有沒有做過就是在台灣目前的"},{"start":130.098,"end":140.061,"text":"社群網路平台的這個市佔比例各個不同的網路社群平台包括影音平台那現在在台灣的前三名是哪幾個如果以影音平台來講的話我們前三名的話一個是Facebook然後您說的是如果是影音平台再過來可能就是"},{"start":152.642,"end":176.059,"text":"IG跟LINE這樣子這是社群平台如果是影音平台呢影音平台的話就是YouTube是第一的那這是其他的都是比較弱比較弱的好我們知道其實其他國家歐盟美國那麼等這些國家他們對於像是臉書FBGoogle"},{"start":179.388,"end":182.73,"text":"YT等等他們都認為有壟斷市場的問題所以像近期歐盟就重罰了FB特別在分類廣告的部分重罰了他274億"},{"start":196.619,"end":225.323,"text":"那么Google其实在之前也曾经被美国的司法部招判就是说他滥用市场的地位有垄断之嫌然后所以要求他拆分那俄罗斯他在去年也是对这个YTGoogle旗下的这个YT服务认为说他有滥用市场主导的地位也予以处罚请问公平会在这些议题上面你们的角色是什么你们的看法是什么"},{"start":226.211,"end":250.102,"text":"委員剛剛提到幾個案例有些我們處理過譬如說Google要求預載在電腦平台裡面預載一些他們的軟體那我們經過深入的調查跟研析雖然最後調查結果跟國外不見得一致但是那個過程我們的確有對數位平台市場做了深入的了解那另外一個問題就是跟委員回答一下就是說數位平台當然都很大而且很可能都已經達到獨佔但是從公平法的執法我們看的是行為"},{"start":250.842,"end":265.664,"text":"就是說我們調查的重點會是在於說你有沒有去把這個市場力量轉換為你濫用把用什麼行為來排除所以你們認為到現在為止臉書跟Google在我們台灣沒有濫用它的市場沒有因為它的這個市場地位"},{"start":266.963,"end":287.301,"text":"有濫用市場地位有一些不法的或不合我們的行為去我們看到國外的判決我們看到國外的處分我們都會去掌握然後我們會把這樣的東西轉換成國內我們事實上有做過市場調查我們去問業者說像國外發生這些行為在台灣有沒有存在那事實上我們收回來的問卷基本上其實大部分都說這個在台灣還不是一個問題我想要講的就是這個Google 臉書"},{"start":293.939,"end":309.137,"text":"YT然後乃至於應該這樣分啦就社群平台跟影音平台其實在台灣哪一個業者他市場力量大這眾所皆知而且我相信你們的報告很清楚YT一定是在整個的影音平台的"},{"start":310.198,"end":338.118,"text":"這個比例是最高的那其實其次也許才談到什麼TikTok或是小紅書啦等等之類那麼可是呢我在這些年我沒有看到公平會有很積極的作為當其他國家陸陸續續都判斷都是認定這些業者在他們的國家的市場上已經有這個壟斷或獨佔的這樣的一個情況可是呢我們卻沒有積極的要求"},{"start":339.694,"end":360.168,"text":"或是对于民众的一些表达的一些不满的意见来进行处理我希望公平会是不是可以在两个礼拜之内可以把你们做的言行报告提供给本席一份然后把台湾的现行的所有的网络社群平台里面各个业者的市占比"},{"start":360.908,"end":386.169,"text":"还有就是影音平台我觉得就两个区分一个网络社区平台包含LINE等等然后另外一个就是影音平台在现在台湾的市占比是多少然后以及你们对于他们有没有这个已经构成了公平法里面这个有主导市场的这样的一个地位请你们提份也许包括给本席参考是没问题谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":797,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時51分）謝謝召委，首先請陳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員早。"],["翁委員曉玲：陳主委好。我想您大概知道我們在這個會期立法院有一個很重要的法案將要推動，就是媒體議價法。您知道我們這個會期的重要法案嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，我知道，我了解。"],["翁委員曉玲：您對於媒體議價法的看法是如何？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：這個議題其實我們在幾年前就開始持續有在關注跟研析。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。那所以從公平會的角度呢？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員如果要了解公平會的角度的話，原則上我們是鼓勵協商……"],["翁委員曉玲：你們是鼓勵協商？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：鼓勵平台業者跟媒體業者來協商。協商的過程當中，如果遇到平台業者有刻意地杯葛，那我們會提供競爭法上的一個分析跟協助。當然如果協商的過程當中數位平台業者有涉及到公平法一些不法的行為，我們本來依公平法就可以處理。"],["翁委員曉玲：您認為以我們現在國家的國力來講，我們跟美國或重要的社群平台，或是在網路上面的影音平台，有條件跟能力去跟他們進行合理的協商嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我不太適合去談公平會有沒有這個能力，但是我們會確保那個協商管道的存在。"],["翁委員曉玲：事實上本席還滿質疑公平會的角色。你們有沒有做過在臺灣目前的社群網路平台的市占比例？就是各個不同的網路社群平台，包含影音平台？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：有，我們有做過市場調查。"],["翁委員曉玲：那現在臺灣的前三名是哪幾個？如果以影音平台來講的話。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：請處長來說明。"],["陳代理處長俊廷：前三名的話，一個是Facebook。如果是影音平台，那再過來可能就是IG跟LINE。"],["翁委員曉玲：這是社群平台，如果是影音平台呢？"],["陳代理處長俊廷：影音平台的話，就是YouTube是第一的，其他的都是比較弱。"],["翁委員曉玲：比較弱的？"],["陳代理處長俊廷：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。我們知道其實其他國家，包含歐盟、美國等等這些國家，他們對於像是臉書FB、Google、YT等等，他們都認為有壟斷市場的問題。所以近期歐盟就重罰了FB，特別在分類廣告的部分，重罰了它274億元。Google其實在之前也曾經被美國的司法部遭判說它濫用市場的地位，有壟斷之嫌，所以要求它拆分。俄羅斯去年也是對Google旗下的YT服務認為它有濫用市場主導的地位，也予以處罰。請問公平會在這些議題上面你們的角色是什麼、你們的看法是什麼？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員剛剛提到的幾個案例，有些我們處理過，譬如Google要求在電腦平台裡面預載一些他們的軟體。我們經過深入的調查跟研析，雖然最後調查結果跟國外不見得一致，但是那個過程我們的確有對數位平台市場做了深入的了解。","另外一個問題跟委員回答一下，就是說數位平台當然都很大，而且很可能都已經達到獨占，但是從公平法的執法我們看的是行為。就是說我們調查的重點會是在於你有沒有去把這個市場力量轉換為你濫用，用什麼行為來排除這種……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們認為到現在為止，臉書跟Google在我們臺灣沒有濫用市場地位，而有一些不法或不合理的行為去……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們看到國外的判決和處分，我們都會去掌握，然後我們會把這樣的東西轉換成國內。我們事實上有做過市場調查，我們去問業者像國外發生的這些行為在臺灣有沒有存在？我們收回來的問卷其實大部分都說這個在臺灣還不是一個問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：我想要講的就是，Google、臉書、YT，乃至於……應該這樣分，就是社群平台跟影音平台，其實在臺灣哪一個業者的市場力量大，這是眾所皆知的。而且我相信你們的報告很清楚，YT一定是在整個影音平台的比例是最高的，其次也許才談到TikTok或是小紅書等等之類，可是我在這些年沒有看到公平會有很積極的作為。","當其他國家陸陸續續都判斷、認定這些業者在他們國家的市場上已經有壟斷或獨占的情況時，可是我們卻沒有積極地要求，或是對於民眾表達的一些不滿的意見來進行處理。我希望公平會是不是可以在兩個禮拜之內把你們做的研析報告提供給本席一份？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，可以。"],["翁委員曉玲：然後把臺灣現行的所有網路社群平台裡面各個業者的市占比，還有影音平台……我覺得就區分為兩個，一個是網路社群平台，包含LINE等等，然後另外一個就是影音平台，現在臺灣的市占比是多少，以及他們有沒有已經構成了公平法裡面有主導市場的地位，請你們提一份研析報告給本席參考。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，沒問題。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員。","下一位請何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","請林思銘委員、林思銘委員、林思銘委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-2","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","陳培瑜"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00003"}}},{"id":"159131","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159131","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fc6fee393e06f660eba53b8a5773cfe3d86f8ffab8834d983cedbb00e0087671e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"11:53:15 - 12:01:35","影片長度":"00:08:20","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:53:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T12:01:35+08:00","duration":500,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.83159375,"end":7.3209687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.333468750000002,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.10534375,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.505968750000001,"end":18.762218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.68596875,"end":56.781593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.102218750000006,"end":85.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.73909375000001,"end":87.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.45596875000001,"end":93.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.42534375000001,"end":101.98971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.44534375,"end":111.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.57471875,"end":111.62534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.86159375000001,"end":111.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.91221875000001,"end":118.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.13909375,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.03346875000001,"end":147.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.33909375000002,"end":134.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.47409375,"end":134.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.12784375,"end":136.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.89846875,"end":146.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.16409375,"end":147.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.18096875,"end":147.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.19784375,"end":149.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.20159375,"end":152.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.35721875000002,"end":154.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.22596875000002,"end":157.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.69409375,"end":192.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.64221875,"end":193.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.92034375,"end":201.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.05846875,"end":203.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.80034375000002,"end":207.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.57221875000002,"end":208.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.31471875000003,"end":222.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.62909375,"end":227.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.29909375000003,"end":232.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.92284375000003,"end":234.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.16721875000002,"end":241.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.13659375,"end":243.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.82409375,"end":244.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.66784375,"end":245.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.41034375,"end":245.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.18659375000001,"end":246.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.65471875000003,"end":249.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.89909375000002,"end":273.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.03034375000004,"end":278.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.97471875,"end":355.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.12659375000004,"end":279.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.46971875,"end":351.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.99659375000005,"end":367.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.33221875000004,"end":436.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.80221875,"end":438.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.03846875000005,"end":438.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.96659375,"end":439.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.00034375,"end":444.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.26096875,"end":446.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.69534375,"end":455.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.29721875,"end":461.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.98409375000006,"end":467.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.38846875,"end":472.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.64909375,"end":473.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.93596875000003,"end":477.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.99846875000003,"end":478.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.21784375000004,"end":478.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.33596875,"end":479.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.38221875000005,"end":482.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.39909375,"end":480.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.93034375,"end":499.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.25659375000004,"end":500.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.96534375000005,"end":501.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.40409375,"end":501.58971875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.523,"end":18.438,"text":"主席還有我們教育部是不是請葉次長好 請葉次長還有勞動發展部的主秘 施主秘好 我們請主秘"},{"start":20.731,"end":41.773,"text":"市長我請教因為本席在2017年10月還有2020年的3月啊2024年的3月都多次的提出青年政策專法的一個版本那感謝支持青年政策專法的草案連署的那麼多委員那今天看到"},{"start":42.874,"end":70.284,"text":"這麼多委員的版本希望我認為說不要分朝野大家一起為青年的未來來建構更好的願景落實推動相關青年的政策因為青年不僅代表國家的未來更反映整個國家現在各界不斷呼籲應重視青年來強調投資青年就是投資整個國家的未來"},{"start":71.585,"end":93.306,"text":"相較於兒童長者身心障礙皆由專法來明定重要的施政方向及內容唯獨只有缺少青年的政策專法若沒有妥善考慮年輕人的未來將導致整個國家陷入惡性的循環"},{"start":95.512,"end":117.948,"text":"所以說本席是希望說行政部門要盡快提出對岸來對岸的版本那請問這個行政院版的青年政策專法是我預計由教育部主責來提出葉市長你的看法呢跟委員報告目前的這個專責當然是在我們的查案裡面是教育部沒錯"},{"start":118.188,"end":132.824,"text":"那你認為需要多少時間才能提出來呢各位委員報告我們目前那個布板的草案已經擬定完成目前因為裡面有牽扯到很多各部會的業務還有地方政府所以我們現在正在進行跟各部會還有地方政府的協調預計在一個月內完成"},{"start":134.426,"end":151.925,"text":"一個月一個月內完成協調之後然後就會報行政院然後進行預告那我們預計這個院版是在這個會期之內這個會期那我也請這個召委那個召委主席啊你有聽到"},{"start":156.309,"end":172.135,"text":"我請因為他預計這個會期一定會提出來教育部所以說我請召委在法案提出來的時候我們來逐條討論是不是這個法案就是等行政院他"},{"start":173.836,"end":193.513,"text":"這個院板來 然後併進去 然後你就來排好不好好 謝謝那個次長我再請教因為最近喔 台大畢業生的聯誼會啊近日舉辦2025年喔畢業歌投票活動啊票選第一名的創作歌曲叫做 上台大變"},{"start":195.857,"end":221.728,"text":"然後請問現場官員你們有沒有聽過這首歌是不是手舉一下都沒有喔只有次長有聽過譬如不想被問每個月薪水找不到工作上台大便然後直接點出畢業生對未來的不安"},{"start":222.962,"end":243.491,"text":"市長以及就業博覽會當我說台大社會怎麼廠商校園就不見了那疑似暗示文組科系畢業生在求職市場上的困境市長你應該清楚吧這個"},{"start":250.032,"end":273.205,"text":"誰說上台大就會很有錢因為文組只能拿兩萬六那老闆拚命剝削勞工畢業及失業就是我那講述畢業青年就業的無奈那我請問教育部與勞動部的代表對於文組大學畢業生未來的困境"},{"start":274.225,"end":288.934,"text":"是否認同創作歌詞反映了現況市長報告好因為我之前我們在業界創業這十年其實我們在看到業界有非常多的產業其實人文社科領域的學生是非常非常有"},{"start":289.634,"end":314.425,"text":"是我們認為是很有機會它是有很多的就業機會但我覺得比較可惜的是在大學裡面像就業博覽會通常都只找科技業財經產業所以像之前我自己還在台大教書的時候我就特別開一個課給人文社科的學生找業界的人讓他們知道說他們有哪些可能的工作機會那這件事情我們接下來未來也會持續在做就怎麼樣幫助大學有更多的課讓"},{"start":315.365,"end":337.786,"text":"人文社科學有機會可以看到就業產業的一些現況而不是只透過就業博覽會以為說就業博覽會因為都找科技業跟財經業就以為說好像我們沒有機會另外一個跟委員報告目前跨領域的學習非常非常重要所以我們也開了很多包括臺灣人工智慧"},{"start":338.487,"end":366.635,"text":"大學聯盟讓人工人設科的學生他可以學會我們有學位學生給他們他們可以學會AI的智慧應用其實在業界非常需要懂人文又懂AI的人現在在我們業界非常需要這樣的人所以我們有好幾個計畫在幫助這些同學們這些領域的學生因為我一直在觀察整個馬路上Uber、Uber E、Hupangda到處都是的他們都去做服務業其實你那麼高的學歷但是到最後都"},{"start":367.715,"end":389.98,"text":"變成做服務業等於是學成以後但是沒有投入他的本行因為媒體報導2023年報導台積電美國廠的人才荒美國亞利桑那州當地社區學院推出半導體採學合作只要完成半導體技術員的快速入門培訓計畫"},{"start":394.321,"end":411.94,"text":"那文組零經驗年薪逼兩百萬培訓十天就上工喔那台積電日前又宣布擴大對美的投資但也強調不會影響在台投資台灣今年要蓋十一個"},{"start":413.061,"end":435.835,"text":"生產線那台積電啟動校園徵才活動2025年預計在台灣招募包含工程師與技術員等約差不多8000名新進的員工那請問勞動部與教育部能夠提供美國同樣的措施給文組畢業生嗎"},{"start":437.864,"end":459.826,"text":"可以嗎跟委員報告我們目前比較針對是AI領域幫他們賦能比較不是半導體領域因為這個也讓台灣的文組畢業生也能夠時日就上工其實我認為像這部分我們應該好好的去探討不然的話很多學生講實在話畢業就失業"},{"start":462.789,"end":477.398,"text":"那你說一個大學畢業生賺兩萬六我們現在的失業率是相對是其他國家是蠻低的所以倒不是畢業就失業可能畢業沒有找到他很滿意的工作這是有但不是畢業就失業"},{"start":478.419,"end":498.909,"text":"但是我是希望說中國大陸的話失業率就真的是非常嚴重學以後學成以後能夠投入他本身的學成我認為這是最棒的那我也希望教育部跟勞動部在這方面你們應該多加強尤其重視青年他們的未來以上 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝林德福委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":713,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（11時53分）主席，還有我們教育部，是不是請葉次長？"],["主席：請葉次長。"],["林委員德福：還有勞動發展部的主秘，施主秘。"],["主席：我們請主秘。"],["林委員德福：次長，本席在2017年10月，還有2020年的3月、2024年的3月，都多次提出青年政策專法的版本，感謝支持青年政策專法的草案，那麼多委員連署。今天看到這麼多委員的版本，我認為不要分朝野，大家一起為青年的未來建構更好的願景，落實推動相關青年的政策，因為青年不僅代表國家的未來，更反映整個國家的現在，各界不斷呼籲應重視青年，強調投資青年就是投資整個國家的未來。相較於兒童、長者、身心障礙，皆有專法來明定重要的施政方向及內容，唯獨只有缺少青年的政策專法，若沒有妥善考慮年輕人的未來，將導致整個國家陷入惡性的循環，所以本席希望行政部門要盡快提出對案的版本。請問行政院版的青年政策專法是否預計由教育部主責來提出，葉次長你的看法呢？"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，目前的這個專責單位，在我們草案裡面是教育部沒錯。"],["林委員德福：那你認為需要多少時間才能提出來呢？"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，我們目前部版的草案已經擬定完成，因為裡面有牽扯到很多各部會的業務，還有地方政府，所以我們現在正在進行跟各部會，還有地方政府的協調，預計在一個月內完成。"],["林委員德福：一個月？"],["葉次長丙成：一個月內完成協調之後就會報行政院，然後進行預告，我們預計院版在這個會期之內能夠提出來。"],["林委員德福：因為教育部預計這個會期一定會提出來，所以我請召委在法案提出來的時候，我們來逐條討論。這個法案就是等行政院的院版來，然後併進去，你就來排好不好？"],["主席：院版來我們就安排審查。"],["林委員德福：好，謝謝。次長，我再請教，因為臺大畢業生聯誼會近日舉辦2025年畢業歌投票活動，票選第一名的創作歌曲叫做「上台大便」。請問現場官員，你們有沒有聽過這首歌？是不是手舉一下，都沒有，只有次長有聽過，譬如「不想被問每個月薪水，找不到工作，上台大便。」直接點出畢業生對未來的不安，以及「就業博覽會，當我說『臺大社會』，怎麼廠商笑臉就不見？」疑似暗示文組科系畢業生在求職市場上的困境。次長，你應該清楚吧？「誰說上臺大就會很有錢」、「文組只能拿兩萬六」、「老闆拚命剝削勞工，畢業即失業就是我」，這些講述畢業青年就業的無奈。我請問教育部與勞動部的代表，對於文組大學畢業生未來的困境，是否認同創作歌詞反映了現況？"],["葉次長丙成：我跟委員報告，因為之前我們在業界創業這十年，我們看到業界有非常多的產業，我們認為其實人文社科領域的學生是很有機會，他是有很多的就業機會。但我覺得比較可惜的是在大學裡面，像就業博覽會通常都只找科技業、財經產業，所以像之前我自己還在臺大教書的時候，我就特別開一個課給人文社科的學生，找業界的人，讓他們知道他們有哪些可能的工作機會。這件事情我們未來也會持續再做，就是怎麼樣幫助大學有更多的課，讓人文社科學生有機會可以看到就業、產業的一些現況，而不是只通過就業博覽會，因為就業博覽會都找科技業跟財經業，就以為說好像他們沒有機會。","另外一個跟委員報告，目前跨領域的學習非常非常重要，所以我們也開了很多課，包括臺灣人工智慧大學聯盟，讓人文社科的學生可以學會，我們有學位學程給他們，他們可以學會AI的智慧應用。其實在業界非常需要懂人文又懂AI的人，現在我們業界非常需要這樣的人，所以我們有好幾個計畫在幫助這些同學們，這些領域的學生。"],["林委員德福：因為我一直在觀察，整個馬路上Uber、Uber Eats、foodpanda到處都是，他們都去做服務業。其實你那麼高的學歷，但是到最後都變成做服務業，等於是學成以後，但是沒有投入他的本行。因為媒體2023年報導台積電美國廠的人才荒，美國亞利桑那州當地社區學院推出半導體產學合作，只要完成半導體技術員的快速入門培訓計畫，文組零經驗年薪逼200萬，培訓10天就上工了。台積電日前又宣布擴大對美的投資，但也強調不會影響在臺投資，臺灣今年要蓋11個生產線，台積電啟動校園徵才活動，2025年預計在臺灣招募，包含工程師與技術員等約8,000名新進的員工。請問勞動部與教育部，能夠提供美國同樣的措施給文組畢業生嗎？可以嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，我們目前比較針對AI領域幫他們賦能，比較不是半導體領域。"],["林委員德福：因為這個也讓臺灣的文組畢業生能夠10日就上工，其實我認為像這部分我們應該好好的去探討，不然的話，很多學生畢業就失業，你說一個大學畢業生賺兩萬六……"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，我們現在的失業率相對其他國家是滿低的，所以倒不是畢業就失業，可能他畢業沒有找到很滿意的工作，這是有，但不是畢業就失業。"],["林委員德福：對，但是我是希望……"],["葉次長丙成：中國大陸的話，失業率就真的是非常嚴重。"],["林委員德福：我是希望學成以後能夠投入他本身的學程，我認為這是最棒的，我也希望教育部跟勞動部在這方面你們應該要多加強，尤其重視青年他們的未來，以上，謝謝。"],["葉次長丙成：是，謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員，次長請回。","我們接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-2","speakers":["林宜瑾","黃捷","林楚茵","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","林德福","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","范雲","吳思瑤","邱志偉","陳培瑜","李坤城"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基\n本法草案」案；三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；四、審查委員吳思瑤等\n47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；六、\n審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法\n草案」案；八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；九、審查委員王美惠等17人\n擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十一、審\n查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十二、審查委員葛如鈞等19人擬具「青年基本\n法草案」案；十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十四、審查委員魯明哲\n等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；\n十六、審查委員葉元之等 20 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十七、審查委員林德福等 20 人擬具\n「青年發展基本法草案」案；十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案 (僅進行\n詢答)","agenda_id":"1142601_00009"}}},{"id":"159130","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159130","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f42dd2ac5e9095cfde83d902c8d6dd6c2ff1cdb1affc83ff4ebd3dc688115573a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:47:35 - 11:58:52","影片長度":"00:11:17","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:47:35+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:58:52+08:00","duration":677,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":0.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.73971875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.3472187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.6003437500000002,"end":3.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.50659375,"end":8.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.34596875,"end":10.071593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.274093750000002,"end":10.476593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.05034375,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.51784375,"end":55.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.83846875,"end":17.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.09159375,"end":20.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.74909375,"end":23.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.00159375,"end":29.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.40971875,"end":33.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.03721875,"end":41.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.80471875,"end":44.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.884093750000005,"end":49.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.664093750000006,"end":52.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.54534375,"end":66.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.90659375,"end":68.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.94846875,"end":71.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.49659375,"end":73.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.82534375,"end":74.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.58471875000001,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.54221875,"end":77.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.77409375,"end":80.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.01409375,"end":81.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.40221875,"end":93.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.02471875,"end":95.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.42534375000001,"end":97.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.90596875,"end":98.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.07034375,"end":108.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.19971875,"end":108.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.62159375,"end":109.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.00534375000001,"end":110.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.05159375000001,"end":111.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.40159375,"end":123.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.57284375,"end":123.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.04534375,"end":125.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.59784375000001,"end":126.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.15034375,"end":129.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.83346875,"end":130.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.89659375000002,"end":135.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.11096875,"end":143.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.17721875,"end":158.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.77846875,"end":157.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.91346875000002,"end":157.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.94721875000002,"end":157.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.08221875,"end":158.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.92596875,"end":158.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.94284375,"end":177.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.99346875,"end":159.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.22971875000002,"end":159.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.46721875,"end":186.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.66534375,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.03659375,"end":180.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.20534375,"end":180.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.20909375000002,"end":183.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.92159375,"end":187.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.12409375000001,"end":194.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.00471875000002,"end":197.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.21096875,"end":230.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.68159375000002,"end":210.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.96846875,"end":210.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.97659375,"end":215.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.37034375000002,"end":232.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.32784375000003,"end":234.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.96471875,"end":266.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.85721875000002,"end":249.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.21471875,"end":255.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.48034375000003,"end":256.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.58159375,"end":258.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.03284375000004,"end":258.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.18034375,"end":259.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.00221875,"end":266.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.95971875000004,"end":266.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.97659375,"end":268.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.12846875,"end":282.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.60471875,"end":271.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.70159375000003,"end":272.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.98346875000004,"end":277.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.01721875000004,"end":277.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.13534375,"end":277.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.20284375,"end":277.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.24846875000003,"end":282.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.19346875,"end":286.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.48409375,"end":287.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.76659375,"end":295.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.96346875,"end":300.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.55784375,"end":324.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.80721875,"end":325.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.60034375000004,"end":329.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.13596875,"end":327.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.29159375,"end":332.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.68784375,"end":334.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.42159375,"end":338.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.77971875000003,"end":339.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.80471875,"end":345.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.02346875,"end":349.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.52909375,"end":350.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.64284375,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.56659375000004,"end":355.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.22846875000005,"end":382.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.72221875,"end":383.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.08909375,"end":389.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.13034375,"end":404.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.22096875000005,"end":404.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.92971875,"end":437.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.43159375000005,"end":407.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.43534375,"end":410.58284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.23596875000004,"end":416.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.02596875,"end":437.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.04284375000003,"end":437.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.07659375000003,"end":463.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.43096875000003,"end":440.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.43096875000003,"end":466.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.96221875000003,"end":469.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.11346875000004,"end":484.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.48034375000003,"end":476.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.96909375,"end":477.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.36096875000004,"end":480.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.39471875000004,"end":480.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.81659375000004,"end":480.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.82034375,"end":484.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.63034375,"end":484.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.64721875000004,"end":485.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.28846875000005,"end":488.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.32221875000005,"end":486.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.35534375000003,"end":497.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.29534375000003,"end":495.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.45971875000004,"end":496.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.28659375,"end":497.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.74221875,"end":499.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.40846875000005,"end":510.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.33096875,"end":510.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.32221875,"end":529.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.0222187500001,"end":515.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.8022187500001,"end":518.8359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.8359687500001,"end":519.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.02159375,"end":519.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.61221875,"end":519.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.63659375,"end":525.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.0578437500001,"end":545.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.8022187500001,"end":570.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.43346875,"end":556.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.66346875,"end":569.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.4015937500001,"end":583.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.17596875,"end":603.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.39659375,"end":603.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.73409375,"end":604.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":605.21909375,"end":610.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.88909375,"end":611.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":611.04096875,"end":623.0222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.0222187500001,"end":623.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.22471875,"end":647.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.01409375,"end":678.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.8572187500001,"end":652.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.10971875,"end":657.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.83534375,"end":657.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.95346875,"end":657.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.8415937500001,"end":673.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.3603437500001,"end":674.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.0690937500001,"end":674.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.6428437500001,"end":676.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.26284375,"end":676.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.68471875,"end":677.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.96721875,"end":678.62534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.109,"end":1.672,"text":"謝謝主席 我請楊總裁來 請"},{"start":16.596,"end":23.342,"text":"我首先必須先肯定你去年義氣波信用管制你的堅持這是正確的我一直認為說我們所有部會當中我們中央銀行跟金管會是在穩定我們國內財經最重要的兩大重鎮而且"},{"start":45.48,"end":72.359,"text":"央行跟金管會到現在為止那這個表現確實可圈可點那麼我去年的上個會期12月份的質詢我針對金管會我有提到說這個要趕快去查查就是是不是融資租賃公司他們會成為"},{"start":73.9,"end":93.173,"text":"我們對於不動產放款就是變成打房的一個破口那我這個質詢之後這個質詢之後當然這個經國二他們有趕快發函他們就有發函要求各銀行針對"},{"start":96.587,"end":122.921,"text":"這個融資的資金用途必須詢問去防止杜絕這個破口他們是在12月13號發的函那我比較感到有興趣的是12月19號我們央行的理監事會議裡面結果也有理事他也提出這樣的疑慮"},{"start":124.195,"end":134.628,"text":"那也就是說在金管會已經有行文跟銀行要求也查查之後那我們"},{"start":136.155,"end":159.893,"text":"理政事會裡面理事也有提出這個疑問那我認為說是不是我們的看法不但一致而且你們有發現什麼樣的新的問題新的破口是我們央行跟金管會必須特別再去查查再去強調的你的看法呢"},{"start":160.353,"end":177.458,"text":"是有那個報告委員就是說我們的我們理事就是說在我們上一次的禮監事會也有提到也有提到就是說這個破口那不過呢上一次那個他講到的這個破口呢主要的他是在講基層金融"},{"start":179.594,"end":188.903,"text":"就是我們的榮譽會信用部還有信用合作社這個部分他講的那個破口是在這個部分而且事實上在講這個破口之後我們有去了解"},{"start":195.109,"end":196.75,"text":"而且我們也有專案經檢對這個部分而且我們也發函給農業金庫因為是農業金庫是農委會之下的農業金庫不是農業的信用部對對對"},{"start":216.778,"end":232.45,"text":"因為農會金庫他對這個農會信用部還有就是農會特別是農會信用部他們有那個檢查不是檢查權他們有監管的責任所以就這個部分我們有去更進一步的了解"},{"start":234.182,"end":252.464,"text":"因為我們這一個底線我們要求銀行金融機構要求貸款不動產不能超過存款總額百分之三十這個底線是絕對要簽署的所以這最可能的大金額的做口"},{"start":253.064,"end":282.384,"text":"那是這些融資註定公司因為他們這金額太龐大了動輒都百億以上那這個農業信用部雖然金額不大但是也會是因為他的加速多啦那這個部分就請你要繼續繼續監督他們那第二個我憂慮的就是說我們消費物價指數CPI啦CPI當然我們在2月份1.58是已經比"},{"start":284.425,"end":293.928,"text":"創下這四年來新低但是不可否認的我們一二月還是一樣比去年同期還是漲這裡面"},{"start":297.031,"end":324.009,"text":"去年今年的數字不管漲跌都已經達到通膨的警戒線尤其食物的方面食物的這個部分竟然高達3.98這麼高高達3.98那3.98幾乎啊我們全民尤其是上班族外食族的朋友們那真的是"},{"start":325.691,"end":339.246,"text":"苦不堪言啦苦不堪言所以我一直搞不懂的就是說為什麼啦為什麼我們對於這個通膨尤其是食物為什麼對"},{"start":341.111,"end":354.625,"text":"食物通膨沒辦法抑制那個總裁你看法呢我跟委員報告就是說外食還有房租外食跟房租是屬於服務類"},{"start":356.497,"end":380.444,"text":"是屬於服務類我們有商品類跟服務類像說蔬菜水果那個是商品類外食跟房租這個是服務類服務類不管就是在台灣或是在外國都有同樣的一個特性它要調降下來都會有sticky"},{"start":382.785,"end":405,"text":"就是僵固性所以就是說他上去了以後呢要回來的時候呢他會慢慢的不會像商品類一樣的商品類你看看像商品類我們商品類下跌的速度就比較快但是呢服務類的這個部分呢他就比較sticky他的特性就是比較僵固這個規律在服務類當然這個就會確實比較不容易但是但是"},{"start":413.005,"end":434.648,"text":"我們雖然是比日韓低是優於日韓但是我們比歐美是高那如果純粹以服務類這個項目來看的話那歐美的薪資是遠高於我們結果他們在這一部分的CPI15的CPI是遠低於我們"},{"start":435.569,"end":463.183,"text":"他們大概2%而已我跟委員報告事實上如果說就歐美來講的話我們跟OECD來比較事實上他們的服務類也是一樣的是上去了以後它下來也是比較你現在講的是說是食物類但是如果說我們從total這個服務類來看的話事實上它還是比我們高"},{"start":464.502,"end":488.373,"text":"他整體的服務類還是比我們高他的服務類現在大概是4.4左右但是食物的部分他大概是他的因為他上站了以後他下來的速度是比較快一點比我們台灣快一點所以總裁當然您是專家我的看法就是說是不是"},{"start":489.42,"end":508.931,"text":"我們中央銀行應該靈活應用這個利率來控制通膨我的看法就是說因為我們洋行最重要的任務之一就是穩定國內物價在這一個部分利率的運用上"},{"start":512.609,"end":528.748,"text":"觀察的結果美國他們是很靈活應用的美國他們在這個利率的調整他們是很激動很激動的那我們台灣長期以來我們國家的低利率已經造成一些"},{"start":530.66,"end":544.63,"text":"不可測的危害已經發生很清楚的我們長期的低利率導致房地產價格不斷上漲那我們長期的低利率也讓我們台灣的民眾放棄"},{"start":545.991,"end":574.686,"text":"除序放棄除序那麼而且還傾向於因為這麼低的利率所以傾向於借貸那這個都是很頭痛的問題而且這長期以往會助長這個金融投機啦金融泡沫所以這一個部分是我們不得不要來做機動的調整尤其尤其我們長期的這個低利率"},{"start":576.823,"end":604.359,"text":"已經也導致我們台灣受險業者他們把我們高達35兆他們從保險戶收到的資金那這些金額70% 25兆因為我們國家的低利率所以他們又有理由有藉口他們到海外去購買海外國外的債券基金那這些"},{"start":605.299,"end":621.877,"text":"因為有戰爭匯率的風險賺人家利息人家把你本金吃了戰爭的風險你像買俄國的部分現在要收回遙遙無期那這一些風險都已經發生不打緊也導致我們國內"},{"start":623.278,"end":647.063,"text":"自己國家的資金來自我們民眾的錢竟然沒辦法用在我們國家自己的建設所以我認為是不是應該在下一次的禮監事會議還有下下次未來的這些禮監事會議要靈活激動的調整利率你看美國他們這麼激動之下你看他們"},{"start":648.163,"end":672.295,"text":"在通膨的部分他們守的至少守的還比我們好所以這一個部分是我給周恩揚的一些建議好不好能不能這個部分就做到而且我也做了一個臨時提案希望在這一個部分你們一個月內做一個基本的對利率調整的一些綜合因素的看法好不好"},{"start":672.915,"end":673.536,"text":"我做一個報告"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1035,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時47分）謝謝主席，我請楊總裁。"],["主席：總裁請。"],["楊總裁金龍：王委員早。"],["王委員世堅：總裁，你好，辛苦了。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：我首先必須先肯定，去年第七波信用管制，你的堅持，這是正確的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：我一直認為，我們所有部會當中，中央銀行跟金管會是穩定我們國內財經最重要的兩大重鎮。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：而且央行跟金管會到現在為止，表現確實可圈可點。","上個會期去年12月份的質詢，針對金管會，我有提到要趕快去查察，是不是融資租賃公司會成為我們對於不動產放款進行打房的一個破口，我這個質詢之後，當然金管會他們有趕快發函，要求各銀行針對融資的資金用途必須詢問，去防止、杜絕這個破口。他們是在12月13日發的函，那我感到比較有興趣的是，12月19日央行理監事會議裡面，也有理事提出這樣的疑慮，也就是，在金管會已經行文跟銀行要求，也查察之後，央行理監事會議裡面，理事也有提出這個疑問。我認為是不是我們的看法不但一致，而且你們有發現什麼樣的新的問題、新的破口是央行跟金管會必須特別再去查察、再去強調的？你的看法呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，有。報告委員，在我們上一次的理監事會議，我們的理事也有提到這個破口，不過上一次他講到的破口主要是在講基層金融，就是我們的農漁會信用部還有信用合作社這個部分，他講的破口是在這個部分。"],["王委員世堅：他講的破口是這個部分？"],["楊總裁金龍：是在這個部分，事實上在講這個破口之後，我們有去了解，而且我們也有對這個部分專案金檢，我們也發函給農業金庫，因為這個部分是農業部之下的農業金庫在……"],["王委員世堅：對，就是農會的信用部。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，因為農業金庫對農會信用部還有漁會信用部，特別是農會信用部，有監管的責任，所以就這個部分，我們有去更進一步的了解。"],["王委員世堅：好。因為我們要求銀行等金融機構不動產貸款總額不能超過存款總額30%，這個底線是絕對要堅守住的……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["王委員世堅：所以最可能的大金額的破口是這些融資租賃公司，因為他們的金額太龐大了，總金額動輒都百億以上。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員世堅：農會信用部雖然金額不大，但是也會是一個小破口……"],["楊總裁金龍：因為它的家數多。"],["王委員世堅：好，那這個部分就請你要繼續監督他們。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["王委員世堅：第二個我憂慮的就是我們的消費者物價指數（CPI），當然我們2月的CPI年增率1.58%已經創下這四年來的新低，但是不可否認的，我們1、2月還是一樣，比去年同期還是上漲，其中去年、今年的數字，不管漲跌，都已經達到通膨的警戒線，尤其食物的部分。食物的部分竟然高達3.98%，這麼高！高達3.98%，那幾乎我們全民，尤其是上班族、外食族的朋友們，真的是苦不堪言啦！苦不堪言。所以我一直搞不懂的就是為什麼我們對於通膨，尤其是食物的通膨，沒辦法抑制？總裁，你的看法呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，外食跟房租是屬於服務類。消費者物價指數有商品類跟服務類，像蔬菜、水果是商品類，外食跟房租是服務類。服務類的物價指數，不管是在臺灣或是在外國都有一個同樣的特性，它要調降下來都會有sticky，就是僵固性，也就是它上漲之後要回跌的時候會慢慢的，不會像商品類一樣，像商品類的下跌速度就比較快，但是服務類的部分就比較sticky，它的特性就是比較僵固。"],["王委員世堅：總裁，這個當然，這個歸類在服務類，當然它的價格就會確實比較不容易回跌，但是我們雖然是比日韓低，是優於日韓，我們卻比歐美高，如果純粹以服務類這個項目來看的話，歐美的薪資是遠高於我們，結果他們在食物這一部分的CPI是遠低於我們，他們大概2%而已，我們將近他們的兩倍。"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，如果就歐美來講的話，我們跟OECD的國家來比較，事實上他們的服務類也是一樣的，上去了以後要下來也是比較慢，你現在講的是食物類啦？"],["王委員世堅：對。"],["楊總裁金龍：但是如果我們從total的服務類來看的話，事實上它還是比我們高，它整體的服務類還是比我們高，它的服務類現在大概是4.4%左右。"],["王委員世堅：但是食物的部分，我們大概是它的將近兩倍。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，食物類的話，因為它上漲了以後，下來的速度是比較快一點，比我們臺灣快一點。"],["王委員世堅：總裁，當然您是專家，但我的看法就是，是不是我們中央銀行應該靈活運用利率來控制通膨？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員世堅：我的看法就是，因為我們央行最重要的任務之一就是穩定國內的物價，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員世堅：在利率這個部分的運用上，我觀察的結果，美國他們是很靈活運用的，美國他們在利率的調整上是很機動的……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員世堅：那我們呢？長期以來我們國家的低利率已經造成一些不可測的危害發生，很清楚的我們長期的低利率導致房地產價格不斷上漲，長期的低利率也讓我們臺灣的民眾放棄儲蓄，而且還傾向於借貸，這個都是很頭痛的問題……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員世堅：而且這長期以往會助長金融投機、金融泡沫，我覺得這個部分我們不得不也要來做機動的調整，尤其我們長期的低利率已經導致我們臺灣的壽險業者把從保險戶收到的高達35兆的資金中的70%，也就是25兆，有理由、有藉口拿到海外去購買國外的債券基金，但這些也有戰爭或是匯率的風險，你要賺人家的利息，人家把你的本金都吃了，至於戰爭的風險，像買俄國的部分，現在要收回遙遙無期……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["王委員世堅：這一些風險都已經發生不打緊，也導致我們國內自己國家的資金，來自我們民眾的錢，竟然沒辦法用在我們國家自己的建設，所以我認為是不是應該在下一次的理監事會議，還有下下次未來的理監事會議，要靈活機動的調整利率。你看美國他們這麼機動之下，在通膨的部分，他們至少守得還比我們好。所以這個部分也是我給中央銀行的一些建議，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。好。"],["王委員世堅：能不能這個部分就做到，而且我也提了一個臨時提案，希望就這個部分，你們一個月內針對利率調整的綜合因素做一個報告，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝王委員的質詢。下一位請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-2","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","黃珊珊","林思銘","李坤城","王世堅","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","邱志偉","陳冠廷","李柏毅"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00004"}}},{"id":"159129","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159129","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f59d168e9faef189bba53b8a5773cfe3dff1cdb1affc83ff43d33e1e9d2057dc95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"11:42:24 - 11:53:10","影片長度":"00:10:46","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:42:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:53:10+08:00","duration":646,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":1.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.995968750000001,"end":9.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.801593750000002,"end":10.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.589718750000003,"end":32.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.00471875,"end":36.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.73409375,"end":45.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.53846875,"end":54.368468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.368468750000005,"end":57.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.148468750000006,"end":61.641593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.595343750000005,"end":64.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.367218750000006,"end":92.65784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.29909375000001,"end":117.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.90909375000001,"end":105.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.57034375,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.81034375,"end":125.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.90159375,"end":126.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.05346875000001,"end":126.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.27284375,"end":128.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.07846875,"end":128.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.09534375,"end":128.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.12909375,"end":145.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.28221875,"end":149.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.84721875,"end":165.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.19534375,"end":163.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.08534375000002,"end":165.50721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.50721875000002,"end":166.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.55784375000002,"end":168.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.67971875,"end":178.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.88909375,"end":196.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.90596875,"end":178.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.35034375,"end":220.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.49534375000002,"end":217.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.53284375,"end":225.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.54846875,"end":239.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.19596875000002,"end":270.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.91284375000004,"end":276.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.18596875000003,"end":280.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.00409375000004,"end":285.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.78346875,"end":289.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.97721875,"end":294.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.50409375000004,"end":303.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.85721875,"end":304.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.70909375,"end":306.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.72596875,"end":305.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.75096875,"end":306.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.76784375,"end":310.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.03721875,"end":311.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.05409375,"end":311.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.10471875,"end":311.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.61096875000004,"end":317.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.88096875,"end":312.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.55971875,"end":356.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.39471875000004,"end":318.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.06784375,"end":364.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.00784375,"end":380.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.89971875000003,"end":423.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.70409375,"end":419.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.14221875000004,"end":449.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.15034375000005,"end":425.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.77784375000005,"end":433.78596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.17221875,"end":446.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.79221875,"end":455.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.17534375,"end":486.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.02721875000003,"end":456.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.39784375000005,"end":507.09096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.33159375,"end":570.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.67721875,"end":509.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.97596875,"end":514.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.63346875,"end":518.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.9797187500001,"end":575.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.8272187499999,"end":576.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.29534375,"end":621.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.45034375,"end":610.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.82846875,"end":641.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.9265937499999,"end":641.0615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.95159375,"end":644.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.71909375,"end":646.57971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.489,"end":1.03,"text":"羅廷偉委員謝謝召委 有請次長好 有請葉次長"},{"start":15.649,"end":31.701,"text":"市長首先在討論到今年基本法的時候我想先討論剛剛的代理教師的職前敘心有幾個問題想請問一下因為剛剛我有聽到其他的委員在關心那我們都知道剛剛有提到8月1號開始要修辦法對吧"},{"start":33.238,"end":56.423,"text":"是 我想這個不是我主管的我請國教署說明好 國教署這個部分剛剛有清楚的說明8月1號要開始修辦法那依辦法到時候修訂以後各縣市就會依辦法去執行對吧更為報告我們辦法目前正在簽應該是要預告對 那預告過後發布之後當然就是會來執行好 那基本上是勢在必行對不對"},{"start":58.323,"end":73.438,"text":"對不對這件事情要做是勢在必行吧所以現在基本上只是還沒修辦法一個縣市開始一個縣市的進度有的先發了有的沒發嘛比如說像桃園已經有執行了"},{"start":74.119,"end":92.43,"text":"那台中我自己的台中沒有執行那這個部分我是希望國教署是不是有一個態度先幫我們發個公文然後告訴各縣市是不是可以先有這個機會先幫忙加速一下那當然辦法後面要修但是鼓勵他們能夠先行去處理您覺得呢"},{"start":94.179,"end":120.591,"text":"我們之前人事單位是不是有發過這個部分我不敢確定但是就是說為了要修辦法署裡面其實有召開各縣市的公事會議才會進到辦法去做調整那剛有提及說辦法沒修之前其實各縣市如果要處理本來就是沒有問題的那現在是依照憲法法庭那邊的決議所以我們至少您先發個公文告訴他們說如果還沒修之前你們要自己處理也是可以的"},{"start":120.811,"end":144.896,"text":"就當作是一個善意的提醒我們後續再去追督促台中市政府這個部分您可以幫忙嗎好那我來了解一下我們人事單位的處理基礎好這個部分拜託我們大家都非常關心那次長我想樂見青年基本法的加速完成那也希望逐條討論的時候能夠確保青年基本法的一個能夠回應真正青年的一個需求但是依你所見你覺得台灣青年政策現在遇到什麼樣的問題您覺得呢"},{"start":148.402,"end":168.295,"text":"我想就是說這個怎麼樣把事責可以更理清楚哪些業務哪些單位來負責然後而且就是說哪些單位每個單位他有什麼義務要做到什麼的事情我想要怎麼樣把它理得更清楚那我想這就是讓他有所依循這也是我們為什麼要請教您個人有去借鏡其他國家的青年基本法嗎"},{"start":168.895,"end":196.522,"text":"我想我們在定這個擬我們的草案的時候我們其實是收集了國內外國外的不同國家的這個很多他們的一些法案來做參考我想現在權益的一個制度化最重要的目的是讓它政策在制定的過程不要有一個高強持續的存在我想青年基本法的一個立法應該是朝野都有共識而且鄰近的國家包括南韓在2020年都有完成立法那現在院版現在卡住送不出來的原因是什麼"},{"start":197.586,"end":225.249,"text":"沒有卡住 收不出來的原因目前跟委員報告我們現在教育部布板的查案已經擬定完成了因為裡面牽涉到很多不同的部會還有地方政府所以我們現在接下來會現在正在跟各個部會在協調那請問青年署這個到一個月內會完成協調之後報行政院教育部青年署是三級機關預算有限有沒有考慮將青年署升格為青年部"},{"start":225.669,"end":239.837,"text":"目前的規劃是這個整個專責單位由教育部來擔任專責單位那你覺得對於青年世代現在對經濟就業居住等相關議題的困境上教育部的一個態度跟具體的做法有沒有什麼可以幫忙協助的"},{"start":240.256,"end":269.129,"text":"目前因為剛才就像委員提到這些包括這個就業創業居住這些很多議題是跨部會的所以會由教育部來做主責單位然後我們現在在草案裡面也因為很多委員都有提到說應該有跨部會的這個行政院的層級來召開這個青年的這個事務協調匯報我們大概就是每三個月會開一次跨部會青年協調由院長擔任召集人所以很多這個其他跨部會需要合作的這些事情就會由在匯報這個地方"},{"start":270.089,"end":285.356,"text":"我們現在看到青年政策青年教育這個部分有關於非正規教育跟執訓有沒有規劃這個是本來就在這個我們的我說未來如果在你們的院版有沒有再更具體的把它法制化的時候去規劃這個部分的一個制定"},{"start":287.967,"end":309.93,"text":"會不會有不一啊 各縣市執行不一啊你說委員是指實驗教育這一塊這種非典型教育嗎非正規的教育跟執訓的部分把它納入到院版裡面可能會討論到 制度化然後讓各縣市有辦法依循這個在收集這個非正規的教育跟執訓啊 是好不好 這個部分我想青年這個部分也是非常重要的一環"},{"start":311.072,"end":329.13,"text":"那我想我們沒有這個關於青年的培力啦我想這部分可以涵蓋剛剛委員在提的當然青年培力很廣啦但是執訓嘛跟非正規的教育我想這個部分也要去納入我想在這個部分還有一個青年公共事務的參與啦各縣市有的用之前有人青年議會嘛有人是青年事務委員會嘛"},{"start":330.251,"end":356.363,"text":"這部分是不是也可以納入到這個青年基本法裡面去做一個制定我覺得這個可以探討這個部分也麻煩你那另外有14的一些題目我想跟你請教一下關於這個校園最近有一個比較轟轟烈烈的在討論所謂的去講話那根據教育部統計目前教育部部署的機構高中以上的學校有81校105項這個威權的象徵什麼是威權的象徵你可不可以舉例一下"},{"start":359.487,"end":379.983,"text":"呃 可能是一些銅像啊 或是一些這些類似這樣的東西沒關係 我們都是可以探討討論的齁 對沒關係那次長 中原大學說這個是奉這個貴單位的指示啊校園內的中正樓改名自信樓那目前他們是說有這個校友在做反對啦齁那次長 這個中原大學有權利說不改嗎"},{"start":381.056,"end":405.249,"text":"跟委員報告,第一個教育部不是教育部要求他改名字的因為這是轉型正義條例裡面是法規的要求然後這個法規的主管單位是內政部那因為我們目前台灣的公私立學校裡面大概有八十一所被列管所以今年的一月的時候教育部是有開一個座談會邀請這些學校說那了解他們現在被列管的現況是怎麼樣那他們有什麼需要幫忙的地方"},{"start":405.849,"end":421.792,"text":"還有一些學校之間有些學校他有處理過他的經驗怎麼分享給大家因為我們非常要求一件事情不管你要改名或要做什麼事情這個需要通過民主的程序要校內要有共識所以第一個教育部不會不是教育部要求要改名字這是法規要求"},{"start":422.233,"end":449.55,"text":"我這邊基本的立場啦你聽聽看就是充分的溝通能夠讓這個部分政策在落實的過程中不要有太多的紛爭這可以接受吧我想轉型正義固然重要那也有相關的法令依據但是也不要太違背這個大學自治的原則我想這個部分拿捏得宜啦我還是要求的很簡單充分的溝通不要在這個轉型的正義的過程過度的撕裂上"},{"start":449.89,"end":465.486,"text":"我們沒有施壓學校我們也是希望學校透過民主的程序不管要改民主或要怎麼做今天我能夠了解到你的態度我覺得我們都是很正向的好不好不要有特別的去做一個讓這個大學自治的一個機會都沒有充分的溝通我覺得是很重要的"},{"start":466.167,"end":486.41,"text":"那再來就是說第二台灣網站平台制服地圖被發現存有大量被盜取的學生制服的一個照片那盜用未成年的照片的上傳還標示被害者可能出沒的地域地區性地區那這個平台的作者還拿這些來發表學術論文請問這有沒有學術倫理的一個問題"},{"start":487.723,"end":506.548,"text":"我們要去了解說這個他當初做這個研究的時候因為通常這個研究他會需要符合研究倫理跟學術倫理那我們會發函請他的這個學校來說明說他們現在當初這個個案他的研究到底有沒有通過這個研究倫理的一些我想這個議題幫我們關心一下"},{"start":508.929,"end":532.39,"text":"我們都希望說學術倫理這個部分能夠顧及而且又還有這個隱私權的一個問題也要幫忙去協助處理我想教育部這無旁貸那既然這件事情有被關注到我希望能夠大家一起來加油那最後再跟市長討論一下這個青年自殺的一個問題我想15歲到24歲年輕族群的一個自殺率從2014年逐年的提升這個也是有趨勢的"},{"start":533.471,"end":558.081,"text":"這部分到2021年是到歷史新高每10萬人口有9.6人自殺相較10年前5.4人相當於1.8倍在該年齡的一個區段中十大死因自殺死亡就佔了21.7僅次於意外死亡的42.1再以年齡細分來看18到24歲自殺比率是最高從2014年到"},{"start":560.343,"end":574.442,"text":"149人到2019年已經到了200人2021年來到224人學校端怎麼去協助那這個社政端要怎麼去連結你有沒有什麼想法我想剛剛委員提到那個年段比較多剛好是在大學18到24"},{"start":576.365,"end":595.275,"text":"那其實我們自己在看,包括我自己我們去年我們之前就有在了解這個問題其中一個面向是很多的學生在他進了大學之後他因為還是用18歲以前的價值觀在念大學那這個很多的適應上的問題還有找不到接下來人生努力的目標很多這些問題"},{"start":596.135,"end":610.783,"text":"那所以我們在教育部我們現在做的事情就是說我們在教學實驗研究計畫這個計畫裡面多了一個領域就是談well-being就是怎麼樣我們設計課程讓學生在大一大二他可以找到自己人生的方向方向動力對"},{"start":611.864,"end":640.684,"text":"這變成是我們現在投入相當多的資源讓全台灣的大學的老師在這個方向有想要貢獻心力的大家來設計這樣的課程我想衛福部有他們的一些資源來相應那社政端也有那我想這個部分也希望教育部在直接面對第一線孩子的時候能夠接住他們能夠幫他們找到未來的一些相關的志向然後解除心理的迷茫這部分18到24真的很值得我們去關注他們的自殺率我們一起加油好嗎我們一起持續努力謝謝"},{"start":642.984,"end":643.628,"text":"好 謝謝羅廷瑋委員好 次長請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":649,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時42分）謝謝召委，有請次長。"],["主席：有請葉次長。"],["羅委員廷瑋：次長，首先在討論到青年基本法的時候，我想先討論剛剛的代理教師的職前敘薪，有幾個問題想請問一下，因為剛剛我有聽到其他的委員在關心。我們都知道剛剛有提到8月1號開始要修辦法，對吧？"],["葉次長丙成：是，我想這個不是我主管的，我請國教署說明。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個部分剛剛有清楚的說明8月1號要開始修辦法，到時候修訂以後各縣市就會依辦法去執行，對吧？"],["許副署長麗娟：跟委員報告，我們辦法目前正在簽，應該是要預告，那預告過後，發布之後，當然就是會來執行。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，那基本上是勢在必行，對不對？這件事情要做是勢在必行吧？"],["許副署長麗娟：要依照憲法法庭的決定。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以現在基本上只是還沒修辦法，依各縣市開始的進度，有的先發了，有的沒發嘛！比如說像桃園已經有執行了，那臺中，我自己的臺中沒有執行。這個部分我是希望國教署是不是有一個態度，先幫我們發個公文，然後告訴各縣市是不是可以有這個機會先幫忙加速一下？當然辦法後面要修，但是鼓勵他們能夠先行去處理，您覺得呢？"],["許副署長麗娟：我們之前人事單位是不是有發過這個部分，我不敢確定，但是為了要修辦法，署裡面其實有召開各縣市的共識會議，才會進到辦法去做調整。剛剛有提及辦法沒修之前，其實各縣市如果要處理，本來就是沒有問題的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然。"],["許副署長麗娟：現在是依照憲法法庭那邊的決議，所以我們就是follow……"],["羅委員廷瑋：至少您先發個公文告訴他們，如果還沒修之前，你們要自己處理也是可以的，就當作是一個善意的提醒，我們後續再去追，督促臺中市政府，這個部分您可以幫忙嗎？"],["許副署長麗娟：好，我來了解一下我們人事單位的處理機制。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，這個部分拜託，我們大家都非常關心。","次長，我想樂見青年基本法的加速完成，也希望逐條討論的時候，能夠確保青年基本法能回應真正青年的需求。但是依你所見，你覺得臺灣青年政策現在遇到什麼樣的問題，您覺得呢？"],["葉次長丙成：我想就是說，怎麼樣把事責可以更釐清楚，哪些業務由哪些單位來負責，而且每個單位有什麼義務、要做到什麼事情，要怎麼樣把它釐得更清楚，我想這就是讓大家有所依循，這也是我們為什麼要推行青年基本法。"],["羅委員廷瑋：您個人有借鏡其他國家的青年基本法嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：我們在擬草案的時候，蒐集了國外不同國家的很多法案來做參考。"],["羅委員廷瑋：現在權益的制度化，最重要目的是讓政策在制訂的過程，不要有一個高牆持續的存在。我想青年基本法的立法，應該是朝野都有共識，而且鄰近的國家，包括南韓在2020年都有完成立法。現在院版卡住，送不出來的原因是什麼？"],["葉次長丙成：沒有卡住送不出來的原因，跟委員報告，現在教育部部版的草案已經擬定完成了，因為裡面牽涉到很多不同的部會還有地方政府，所以我們現在正在跟各個部會在談、在協調……"],["羅委員廷瑋：請問青年署，如果教育部去……"],["葉次長丙成：這個在一個月內會完成協調，之後報行政院預告。"],["羅委員廷瑋：一個月內會完成協調，好。教育部青年署是三級機關，預算有限，有沒有考慮將青年署升格為青年部？"],["葉次長丙成：目前這個整個專責單位的規劃，是由教育部來擔任專責單位。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你覺得對於青年世代，現在對經濟、就業、居住等相關議題的困境上，教育部的態度跟具體的做法，有沒有什麼可以幫忙協助？"],["葉次長丙成：目前因為就像剛才委員提到，包括就業、創業、居住，這些很多的議題是跨部會的，所以會由教育部來做主責單位。然後我們現在在草案裡面，也因為很多委員都有提到，應該有跨部會的行政院層級來召開青年事務協調會報，我們大概是每三個月會開一次跨部會的青年協調會報，由院長擔任召集人，所以很多其他跨部會需要合作的這些事情，就會在會報這個地方來協調。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們現在看到青年政策──青年教育這個部分，有關於非正規教育跟職訓，有沒有規劃？"],["葉次長丙成：這個是本來就在我們的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我說未來如果在你們的院版，有沒有再更具體的把它法制化的時候，去規劃這個部分的制定？會不會有不一、各縣市執行不一啊！"],["葉次長丙成：委員是指實驗教育這一塊和典型教育嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：非正規的教育跟職訓的部分，把它納入到院版裡面，可能會討論到制度化，然後讓各縣市有辦法依循。."],["葉次長丙成：好，委員，我再蒐集這個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：非正規的教育跟職訓，好不好？"],["葉次長丙成：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想青年這個部分也是非常重要的一環，那我想……"],["葉次長丙成：我們有關於青年的培力，我想這個部分可以涵蓋剛才委員提的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然青年培力很廣，但是職訓跟非正規的教育，我想這個部分也要納入。我想在這個部分，還有青年公共事務的參與，各縣市之前有人是青年議會，有人是青年事務委員會，這部分是不是也可以納入青年基本法裡面去制定，我覺得這些都可以探討，這個部分也麻煩你。","另外有一些時事的題目我想跟你請教一下，關於校園最近有一個比較轟轟烈烈的討論，所謂的去蔣化。根據教育部統計，目前教育部部屬的機構，高中以上的學校有81校、105項威權的象徵。什麼是威權的象徵，你可不可以舉例一下？"],["葉次長丙成：可能是一些銅像或是一些類似這樣的東西。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，我們都是可以探討討論的，都沒關係。次長，中原大學說這個是奉貴單位的指示，校園內的「中正樓」改名「智信樓」，目前他們是說有校友在反對。次長，中原大學有權利說不改嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：跟委員報告，第一個，不是教育部要求它改名字的，因為這是轉型正義條例裡面是法規的要求。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是。"],["葉次長丙成：這個法規的主管單位是內政部，因為目前臺灣的公私立學校大概有81所被列管，所以今年1月的時候，教育部有開一個座談會，邀請這些學校，了解他們現在被列管的現況是怎麼樣，他們有什麼需要幫忙的地方。還有一些學校之間，有些學校有處理過，那它的經驗怎麼分享給大家，因為我們非常要求一件事情，不管你要改名或要做什麼事情，這是要通過民主的程序，校內要有共識。"],["羅委員廷瑋：校內要有共識，OK。"],["葉次長丙成：所以，第一個不是教育部要求它改名字，這是法規要求。第二個，教育部……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我這邊基本的立場，您聽聽看，就是充分的溝通，能夠讓這個部分的政策在落實的過程中，不要有太多的紛爭，這可以接受吧？"],["葉次長丙成：是，我們也是希望這個樣子。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想轉型正義固然重要，也有相關的法令依據，但是也不要太違背大學自治的原則。我想這個部分拿捏得宜啦！我還是要求得很簡單：充分的溝通，不要在這個轉型正義的過程中，有過度的撕裂傷害。"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，我們沒有施壓學校，我們也是希望學校通過民主的程序，不管要改名字或要怎麼做……"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，今天能夠了解到你的態度，我覺得我們都是很正向的，好不好？不要有特別的去做一個……讓大學連自治的一個機會都沒有，充分的溝通我覺得是很重要的。","再來，臺灣網站平台「制服地圖」被發現存有大量被盜取的學生制服的照片，盜用未成年的照片上傳，還標示被害者可能出沒的地區性。這個平台的作者還拿這些來發表學術論文，請問這有沒有學術倫理的問題？"],["葉次長丙成：我們要去了解他當初做這些研究的時候，因為通常這些研究需要符合研究倫理跟學術倫理。我們會發函，請他的學校來說明，當初這個個案的研究到底有沒有通過研究倫理的一些相關的規範。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想這個議題幫我們關心一下，我們都希望學術倫理這個部分能夠顧及，而且又還有隱私權的問題也要幫忙去協助處理。我想教育部責無旁貸，既然這件事情有被關注到，我希望能夠大家一起來加油。"],["葉次長丙成：是，沒問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：最後再跟次長討論一下青年自殺的問題，我想15歲到24歲年輕族群的自殺率，從2014年逐年的提升，這個也是有趨勢的，這個部分到2021年是到歷史新高，每10萬人口有9.6人自殺，相較10年前5.4人，相當於1.8倍。在該年齡的區段中，十大死因自殺死亡就占了21.7，僅次於意外死亡的42.1。再以年齡細分來看，18到24歲自殺比率是最高，從2014年149人，到2019年已經到了200人，2021年來到224人。學校端怎麼去協助，社政端要怎麼去連結，你有沒有什麼想法？"],["葉次長丙成：剛剛委員提到那個年段，比較多剛好是在大學。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對，18到24歲。"],["葉次長丙成：其實我們自己在看，包括我自己，我們之前就有在了解這個問題，其中一個面向是很多的學生進了大學之後，他因為還是用18歲以前的價值觀在念大學，有很多適應上的問題，還有找不到接下來人生努力的目標，很多這些問題。所以在教育部，我們現在做的事情就是，我們在教學實踐研究計畫這個計畫裡面多了一個領域談well-being，就是我們怎麼樣設計課程，讓學生在大一、大二可以找到自己人生的方向、人生的動力。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["葉次長丙成：這個變成是我們現在投入相當多的資源，讓全臺灣在這個方向有想要貢獻心力的大學的老師，大家來設計這樣的課程。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想衛福部有他們的一些資源來相應，社政端也有。關於這個部分，也希望教育部在直接面對第一線孩子的時候，能夠接住他們，能夠幫他們找到未來的一些相關的志向，然後解除心裡的迷茫。這部分18到24歲，真的很值得我們去關注他們的自殺率，我們一起加油好嗎？謝謝。"],["葉次長丙成：我們會持續努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員。次長請回，我們接下來請林德福委員，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-2","speakers":["林宜瑾","黃捷","林楚茵","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","林德福","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","范雲","吳思瑤","邱志偉","陳培瑜","李坤城"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基\n本法草案」案；三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；四、審查委員吳思瑤等\n47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；六、\n審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法\n草案」案；八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；九、審查委員王美惠等17人\n擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十一、審\n查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十二、審查委員葛如鈞等19人擬具「青年基本\n法草案」案；十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十四、審查委員魯明哲\n等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；\n十六、審查委員葉元之等 20 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十七、審查委員林德福等 20 人擬具\n「青年發展基本法草案」案；十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案 (僅進行\n詢答)","agenda_id":"1142601_00009"}}},{"id":"159128","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159128","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f3fcc7516d2cc46116de99780e8e59786ff1cdb1affc83ff4d8b1c7e592a140f45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:40:50 - 11:51:13","影片長度":"00:10:23","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:40:50+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:51:13+08:00","duration":623,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.27034375,"end":9.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.825968750000001,"end":16.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.973468750000002,"end":19.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.027843750000002,"end":21.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.85784375,"end":28.465343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.460968750000003,"end":29.950343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.844718750000002,"end":31.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.05971875,"end":58.283468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.38034375,"end":65.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.55659375,"end":71.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.64846875,"end":72.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.03659375000001,"end":82.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.86221875000001,"end":118.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.31284375,"end":86.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.08409375000001,"end":130.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.20034375,"end":136.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.17409375,"end":143.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.43034375000002,"end":147.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.61971875,"end":148.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.61096875,"end":150.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.21409375000002,"end":153.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.21784375000001,"end":156.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.20909375000002,"end":160.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.83284375000002,"end":166.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.57909375,"end":166.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.55346875,"end":171.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.97034375,"end":188.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.35784375,"end":176.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.67659375000002,"end":197.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.58221875,"end":206.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.73284375,"end":232.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.34909375,"end":234.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.47534375,"end":255.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.50159375,"end":257.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.55596875000003,"end":260.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.25596875,"end":261.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.52159375,"end":265.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.04846875000004,"end":270.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.36409375,"end":276.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.06784375,"end":278.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.77221875000004,"end":288.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.43721875,"end":294.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.77409375,"end":303.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.69659375000003,"end":310.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.85159375,"end":319.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.89659375,"end":327.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.35096875000005,"end":336.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.34534375000004,"end":347.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.77909375,"end":343.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.97659375,"end":376.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.41534375000003,"end":348.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.10721875,"end":349.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.63471875000005,"end":382.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.16534375000003,"end":385.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.97096875,"end":384.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.96221875000003,"end":391.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.51409375000003,"end":394.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.85534375000003,"end":396.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.79159375,"end":400.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.74471875,"end":413.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.97471875,"end":418.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.85159375,"end":444.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.68284375,"end":451.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.80846875000003,"end":460.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.51596875,"end":464.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.53221875,"end":469.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.93221875,"end":471.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.12596875,"end":477.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.99846875000003,"end":483.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.63471875000005,"end":483.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.71909375,"end":492.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.93846875,"end":484.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.33784375000005,"end":495.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.59909375,"end":500.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.69534375,"end":504.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.03221875,"end":527.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.88096875,"end":531.9309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.52159375,"end":533.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.9853437500001,"end":539.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.0359687499999,"end":535.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.8159687500001,"end":546.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.59221875,"end":540.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.5234687500001,"end":551.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.38784375,"end":553.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.1215937500001,"end":555.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.19721875,"end":557.7834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.3234687500001,"end":560.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.50034375,"end":561.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.39034375,"end":565.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.14096875,"end":566.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.4697187500001,"end":574.3715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.8103437500001,"end":581.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.03721875,"end":581.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.64034375,"end":582.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.6572187500001,"end":588.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.0990937500001,"end":590.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.7065937500001,"end":599.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.88659375,"end":600.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.74721875,"end":601.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.16471875,"end":604.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.26596875,"end":602.6203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.27409375,"end":613.0490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.6453437499999,"end":604.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.4540937500001,"end":617.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.75284375,"end":619.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.6640937500001,"end":620.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.76534375,"end":621.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.9297187500001,"end":621.2334687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.97596875,"end":622.24596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.786,"end":36.076,"text":"我們請蔡奕宇委員謝謝主席那我們是不是有請陳代理主委請代理主委蔡委員早主委好那我早上基本上每一位委員在質詢的時候我就在聽"},{"start":37.506,"end":57.883,"text":"那事實上我剛剛有聽到前兩位委員陳超明委員他在質詢的最後他講了有講到我心坎裡去就是說基本上公平會穩定物價是你們的一個工作所以你們要避免聯合操弄然後去干擾物價但是呢你們也要"},{"start":59.977,"end":86.076,"text":"避免有人去哄抬物價然後或者是說去打壓所謂農民的一個收入這件事都是你們要去做的嘛對不對就物價的聯合當然是跨部會之間的事情那本會有本會的執掌主要是這個聯合哄抬價格聯合固定這個市場就有聯合行為嘛或者是有囤積嘛這樣的事情就是你們公平會要管聯合行為的部分"},{"start":86.696,"end":101.208,"text":"所以重點就來了剛剛就講了說事實上以農民來說他的收入基本上是一個很不穩定的收入尤其遇到災害的時候他的災害的時候數量減少數量減少價格自然會高起來所以這個是基本上人家講的過去一句話叫做古建商農這個成語事實上就是有它的一個道理我們看到了說現在說香蕉的價錢因為去年"},{"start":115.679,"end":139.499,"text":"鳳梯尤其有一個叫做納陀河颱風這個鳳梯遭到殖民不得了影響的範圍大家的金錢全部都掃掉了掃掉了的結果是怎樣當然現在沒有香蕉沒有數量沒有數量市場機制無法介紹的企業所以現在介紹比較高但是我們卻看到了國民黨的首席書記長竟然說這個現在的香蕉價格比較高"},{"start":144.523,"end":148.489,"text":"有人問他說這個是遇到詐騙嗎他的臉書就這樣講說這樣是詐騙我想要請教我們主委針對現在江郊的狀況有特定的供應商來進行聯合壟斷嗎"},{"start":161.048,"end":179.791,"text":"根據目前調查現在目前是沒有聯合行為的問題那有同期的狀況嗎目前我們的了解也沒有 主要是颱風的因素導致這個供應量大幅減少所以你們掌握就是數量減少 數量減少自然它的市場機制那我們也看到現在很多交農都跳出來說因為"},{"start":181.372,"end":196.528,"text":"第一 所謂叫 第一 他們現在 催促的 他們要進行所以大概下一批要到明年 今年度的夏天新的香蕉出來 可能價格才會趨於穩定我覺得這種市場機制 我們要去尊重而且農民在香蕉介紹賣的時候"},{"start":199.01,"end":204.034,"text":"香蕉價格差的時候,有人要跳出來協助他們嗎?也沒辦法,也要當市場機制把價格再拉回來所以這個有好多的一個狀況,我們真的沒有希望說一塊就讓農民價格比較好"},{"start":214.262,"end":217.785,"text":"就記得有人要出來打壓打壓這些香蕉農這個我們不希望看到所以你們在執行你們公民交易在執行這個聯合壟斷的時候基本上你們也要去注意到怎樣的話物價的一個平穩但是農民的收入不能被傷害這樣好不好"},{"start":232.383,"end":236.806,"text":"所以我們會持續關注這個問題好那接下來事實上也是剛剛很多委員都有在問就是台積電現在他可能會跟其他的企業包括英特爾包括輝達他們可能要去合資然後會去吃下英特爾的一個部分的一個廠房"},{"start":255.596,"end":264.848,"text":"那我想請教我們副主委像台積電這一種公司這麼強已經強到它已經引領全世界"},{"start":266.409,"end":286.034,"text":"他的先進製程達到先進封裝差不多全世界要對他走因為全世界要對他走所有的三項幾乎都是以台積電馬所是瞻我想請教副主委我們過去公平會有遇過台灣曾經有這樣的企業可以達到像台積電這樣的一個巔峰嗎"},{"start":289.682,"end":301.155,"text":"我就個人的所及啊 印象所及是沒有像台積電在國際間所以這是第一次嘛第一次台灣有這樣的企業達到你看引領整個世界所以我要跟副主委講的是說事實上從你剛剛說的如果台積電要有這樣的一個這個叫做合併"},{"start":308.543,"end":336.22,"text":"合併的一個行為的話你們會有你們的審查但是你們要審查的時候你們要注意喔我為大家提醒的就是說你們除了要考慮的是過去都說聯合行為或者合併的行為考慮的是台灣的市場我覺得現在不能這樣想你要考慮的是國際市場以及台積電在整個國際佈局的時候怎樣對它的佈局是可以讓這一個企業更加壯大"},{"start":337.361,"end":360.471,"text":"跟委員報告我們審查這基本上都會是我們考慮的因素那特別是在科技業啦那個市場通常在一些案子當中我們會把它擴到全球的角度來看對但是第一個是全球的角度嘛第二個就是說你知道因為台積電它就是這個技術它技術無法被取代既然它無法被取代的情況之下它跟你們傳統在說啊我多少是戰力是獨佔寡佔"},{"start":361.792,"end":381.459,"text":"我覺得這已經超越了所謂獨佔寡占因為他現在就是要跨級全世界而且對我們台灣是一個最具有攻擊性的一個企業像這個企業公平會在審查的時候必須要有更多元的一個考量我想委員現在提到的就是在科技業裡面我們都必須要更進一步去了解一下科技業創新的動能"},{"start":382.419,"end":395.616,"text":"跟結合之間的關係所以這部分我們會審慎去了解所以這一個我覺得很重要所以社會部隊你們要多用心在這一塊最後我再問一個就是說關於現在歐盟"},{"start":397.83,"end":413.609,"text":"要推出了這個所謂數位市場法那這個數位市場法當然是針對現在的一個數位科技那數位科技因為掌握在少數的幾家跨國性的大型企業比方說像Meta 像Google 像Line"},{"start":414.288,"end":433.396,"text":"像這樣他們都擁有壓倒性大家使用的一個習慣那因為這樣的一個使用習慣就變成了這些平台他們可能在一些廣告的行為或者是一些他們在使用在投射用大數據然後來投放廣告或者是會有詐騙的一個狀況"},{"start":435.157,"end":451.113,"text":"基本上歐盟有注意到這些狀況那我們台灣未來要怎麼去因應這些企業然後他們的一些不作為我覺得應該說不作為去影響到人民的生活"},{"start":452.12,"end":471.39,"text":"我們在2022年的時候有發表了社會政策白皮書那白皮書裡面其實有把本會對於數位平台的執法立場有蠻詳細的說明那基本上目前我們還是會依照那個白皮書的立場就簡單來講就是說我們會優化我們本身在數位平台執法的能量我們會提升同仁對數位平台的了解那另外就是說其實大部分"},{"start":472.37,"end":500.094,"text":"數位平台的一件競爭的問題在目前公平法我們過去的分析架構底下其實我們都可以處理我們要的是讓大同仁還有執法的同仁能夠多一點對數位的了解所以目前我想除了對數位的了解之外以及他們企業跟企業之間的競爭是否公平之外我覺得最主要就是說講白了啦現在的詐騙集團都在用這些數位工具來變成他們行使他們詐騙的武器"},{"start":500.795,"end":503.732,"text":"那這一些平台最主要就是不作為"},{"start":505.26,"end":532.946,"text":"不做耶 他一直放任著 有人一直在那邊投放一些奇奇怪怪的訊息比方說這個投資理財啊然後請他們去加入LINE 加入LINE後再去告訴他們說我要投資哪些股票現在新聞層出不窮啊都是這種狀況 結果看起來問題就來自於這一些平台明明有人大量在投放這樣的一些一些錯假訊息也好一些屬於詐騙的一個訊息也好不會受到處罰"},{"start":535.031,"end":561.067,"text":"因為這些詐騙的行為基本上本身有高度的刑事不法的特色那副罪因為我剛剛有聽到說你們涉及到刑事不法你們就拉法務部處理那我現在要問一件事情如果已經判刑確定整個司法程序走完確定這個案件你就是利用我不要講任何一個平台哪一個平台來做你詐騙的手段有判決確定的案例是不是要針對這些平台開罰而且一案一罰"},{"start":562.418,"end":588.478,"text":"因為我們在法律上就是刑事優先原則當然啊 我說刑事走完啊我指的是刑事判決確定了走回到了頭 我們公平會已經判決確定了 換我要出手了你這些平台 你們不作為已經讓於這一些犯罪集團把你們當作犯罪工具因為就我了解 刑事法法的要求是刑事如果制裁以後原則上不能夠再有其他的刑法的處罰"},{"start":590.134,"end":616.488,"text":"行政法那不一樣喔不一樣喔刑事法是罰犯罪者就是詐騙人我現在指的是你對於平台的不作為所以這是兩件事好不好再思考一下針對已經判決確定的案件公平會應該有所作為這樣才能讓這些平台去正視說為什麼詐騙集團都要用他們的網路上的優勢來投放這一些詐騙訊息"},{"start":619.182,"end":620.63,"text":"我們回去演繹一下 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":758,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時41分）謝謝主席。有請陳代理主委。"],["主席：請陳代理主委。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：蔡委員早。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委好。早上基本上每位委員在質詢的時候我就坐在那邊聽，事實上我剛剛有聽到前兩位委員，陳超明委員在質詢最後講的有講到我心坎裡，就是基本上穩定物價是你們公平會的一個工作，所以你們要避免聯合操弄然後去干擾物價，但是你們也要避免有人哄抬物價或者是去打壓農民的收入，這件事都是你們要去做的，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：就物價的聯合當然是跨部會之間的事情，本會有本會的職掌，主要是聯合哄抬價格、聯合囤積……對不起，聯合固定這個市場價格……"],["蔡委員易餘：就是有聯合行為或者是有囤積這樣的事情就是你們公平會要管的。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：聯合行為的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以重點就來了，我剛剛就講了，事實上以農民來說他的收入基本上是一個很不穩定的收入，尤其遇到災害的時候他的數量減少，數量減少價格自然會高起來，所以這個基本上就是人家過去說的一句話叫做「穀賤傷農」，這個成語事實上是有它的道理。我們看到了現在香蕉的價錢因為去年颱風，尤其有一個叫做山陀兒颱風，這個颱風跑得很慢，不過影響的範圍把全部的香蕉樹都掃倒光光，全被掃倒光光之後的結果是怎麼樣？當然是現在沒有香蕉、沒有數量，因為沒有數量，市場機制價格就會上揚，所以現在價格比較高。但是我們卻看到國民黨的首席書記長竟然說：現在的香蕉價格比較高，有人問他說這個是遇到詐騙嗎？他的臉書就這樣講，說這樣是詐騙。我想要請教主委，針對現在香蕉的狀況，有特定的供應商進行聯合壟斷嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：根據我們的調查現在是沒有聯合行為的問題，我們知道這是因為颱風……"],["蔡委員易餘：那有囤積的狀況嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：目前我們的了解也沒有。"],["蔡委員易餘：也沒有嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：主要是颱風的因素導致供應量大幅減少。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以你們掌握的就是數量減少，是數量減少的自然市場機制嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們也看到很多蕉農都跳出來說，因為第一數量少，第二他們被吹倒的現在要重種，所以大概下一批要到今年度夏天新的香蕉收成，可能價格才會趨於穩定。我覺得這種市場機制我們要去尊重，而且農民在香蕉價格差的時候有人要跳出來協助他們嗎？也沒辦法耶，也是要等市場機制把價格再拉回來。所以這個有好多的狀況，我們真的很不希望一看到價格比較好就有人要出來打壓這些香蕉農，這個我們不希望看到。所以你們公平交易委員會在執行這個聯合壟斷的時候基本上你們也要去注意到物價的平穩，但是農民的收入不能被傷害，這樣好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們會持續關注這個問題。"],["蔡委員易餘：好。接下來事實上也是剛剛很多委員都在問的，就是台積電現在可能會跟其他的企業，包括Intel、包括輝達，他們可能要去合資，然後會去吃下Intel部分的廠房，我想請教副主委，像台積電這一種公司這麼強，它強到已經引領全世界，它的先進製程、先進封裝差不多全世界要跟著它走，因為全世界要跟著它走，所以所有的產業幾乎都是以台積電馬首是瞻。我想請教副主委，我們公平會過去遇過臺灣曾經有這樣的企業可以達到像台積電這樣的巔峰嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：就我個人印象所及是沒有像台積電在國際上……"],["蔡委員易餘：所以這是第一次嘛，第一次臺灣有這樣的企業達到引領整個世界，所以我要跟副主委講的是，事實上從你剛剛說的，如果台積電要有這樣的一個合併行為的話，你們會有你們的審查，但是你們要審查的時候要注意喔，我要提醒你們的就是過去我們都說聯合行為或者合併行為考慮的是臺灣的市場，我覺得現在不能這樣想，你要考慮的是國際市場，以及台積電在整個國際布局的時候怎樣的布局可以讓這一個企業更加壯大。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：跟委員報告，我們審查時基本上這都會是我們考慮的因素，特別是在科技業，那個市場通常在一些案子當中我們會把它擴到全球的角度來看。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，第一個是全球的角度嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：第二個就是你要知道台積電就是這個技術，它的技術無法被取代，既然它在無法被取代的情況之下，它跟你們傳統在說多少市占率是獨占、寡占，我覺得這已經超越了所謂獨占、寡占，因為他現在就是要跨局全世界，而且對我們臺灣是一個最具有攻擊性的企業，像這種企業，公平會在審查的時候必須要有更多元的考量。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想委員現在提到的就是在科技業裡面我們都必須要更進一步去了解一下科技業創新的動能跟結合之間的關係，所以這部分我們會審慎去了解。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，這一個我覺得很重要，所以副主委就你們要多用心在這一塊。","最後我再問一個，關於現在歐盟要推出的所謂數位市場法，這個數位市場法當然是針對現在的數位科技，數位科技因為掌握在少數的幾家跨國性的大型企業，比方像Meta、像Google、像LINE，他們都擁有壓倒性大家使用的一個習慣，因為這樣的一個使用習慣就變成了這些平台可能在一些廣告行為或者是一些他們使用在投射、用大數據然後來投放廣告，或者是會有詐騙的一個狀況，基本上歐盟有注意到這些狀況，那我們臺灣呢？臺灣未來要怎麼去因應這一些企業的一些不作為？我覺得應該說不作為，去影響到人民的生活。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們在2022年的時候有發表了數位政策白皮書，白皮書裡面其實有把本會對於數位平台的執法立場有蠻詳細的說明，基本上目前我們還是會依照那個白皮書的立場，簡單來講就是我們會優化我們本身在數位平台執法的能量，我們會提升同仁對數位平台的了解。另外其實大部分數位平台一些競爭的問題在目前公平法我們過去的分析架構底下其實我們都可以處理，我們要的是讓同仁還有執法的同仁能夠多一點對數位的了解，所以目前……"],["蔡委員易餘：副主委，我想除了對數位的了解以及他們企業跟企業之間的競爭是否公平之外，我覺得最主要的就是……講白了啦，現在的詐騙集團都在用這些數位工具來變成他們行使詐騙的武器，這一些平台最主要就是不作為，它一直放任著，有人一直在那邊投放一些奇奇怪怪的訊息，比方說這個投資理財啊，然後請他們去加入LINE，加入LINE後再去告訴他們說我要投資哪些股票，現在新聞層出不窮啊，都是這種狀況，結果看起來問題就來自於這一些平台，明明有人大量在投放這樣一些錯假訊息也好、一些屬於詐騙的訊息也好，卻不會受到處罰。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為這些詐騙的行為基本上本質有高度的刑事不法的特色，所以這裡面……"],["蔡委員易餘：好，副主委，因為我剛剛有聽到說你們涉及到刑事不法你們就拉到法務部去處理，那我現在要問一件事情，如果已經判刑確定，整個司法程序走完，確定這個案件就是利用……我不要講任何一個平台來做為詐騙的手段，有判決確定的案例，是不是要針對這些平台開罰，而且一案一罰？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為我們在法律上就是刑事優先原則。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啊！我說刑事走完啊！我指的是刑事判決確定了，回到了公平會，已經判決確定了，換我要出手了。這些平台你們不作為，已經讓這些犯罪集團把你們當作犯罪工具。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：就我了解，行政罰法的要求是，刑事如果制裁以後，原則上不能夠再有其他行政罰的處罰。"],["蔡委員易餘：那不一樣哦！刑事罰是罰犯罪者，就是詐騙人，我現在指的是你對於平台的不作為，所以這是兩件事好不好？再思考一下。針對已經判決確定的案件，公平會應該有所作為，這樣才能讓這些平台去正視為什麼詐騙集團都要用他們在網路上的優勢來投放這些詐騙訊息，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：OK，我們回去研議一下，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員。"],["主席（蔡委員易餘）：下一位請羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-2","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","陳培瑜"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00003"}}},{"id":"159127","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159127","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fbf70355e8827ddf50aae3c1a04a00b1bff1cdb1affc83ff4a1c492a21a7eb66e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:35:23 - 11:48:22","影片長度":"00:12:59","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【如遇加開院會本次會議取消，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:35:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:48:22+08:00","duration":779,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.19034375,"end":6.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.730343750000001,"end":8.181593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.316593750000003,"end":10.020968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.219093750000003,"end":12.805343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.45846875,"end":18.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.52596875,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.981593750000002,"end":19.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.26846875,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.454093750000002,"end":19.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.72409375,"end":39.518468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.73784375,"end":65.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.69159375000001,"end":70.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.66971875,"end":74.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.61846875,"end":75.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.49159375,"end":77.08221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.58846875,"end":96.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.24471875,"end":90.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.19721875,"end":97.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.10846875,"end":117.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.49346875,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.23471875000001,"end":165.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.30034375000002,"end":177.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.62346875,"end":181.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.42034375,"end":209.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.99096875,"end":202.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.77034375000002,"end":211.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.35659375,"end":215.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.62159375000002,"end":232.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.05784375000002,"end":239.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.55471875,"end":239.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.97659375,"end":242.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.62596875000003,"end":243.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.74409375000002,"end":243.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.97596875000002,"end":245.17409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.83659375000002,"end":249.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.98409375000003,"end":246.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":249.91596875000002,"end":249.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.93284375000002,"end":254.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.01721875,"end":250.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.03409375,"end":250.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.33284375000002,"end":267.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.78659375,"end":284.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.89784375,"end":296.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.86221875,"end":299.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.19096875,"end":299.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.32596875,"end":302.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.44784375,"end":312.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.09221875000003,"end":318.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.54659375,"end":339.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.36596875000004,"end":346.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":347.03159375,"end":361.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.85659375,"end":363.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":363.36659375000005,"end":369.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.44221875000005,"end":366.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.53034375000004,"end":369.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.72846875000005,"end":371.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.74534375,"end":370.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.02784375000005,"end":371.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.56784375,"end":445.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":446.05409375000005,"end":446.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.10471875,"end":446.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.44221875000005,"end":451.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.48784375,"end":457.79909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.33909375,"end":462.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.89534375000005,"end":471.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.82221875000005,"end":473.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.52221875000004,"end":476.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.83409375,"end":477.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":478.23471875,"end":510.07784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.39846875,"end":543.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.4128437500001,"end":526.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":526.9697187500001,"end":528.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":533.63534375,"end":536.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":538.2422187500001,"end":538.4109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":543.94596875,"end":588.3272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.67346875,"end":590.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":591.4153437500001,"end":592.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":594.0984687499999,"end":595.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":596.10659375,"end":602.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":603.10971875,"end":659.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":660.4509687500001,"end":759.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":759.9965937500001,"end":775.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":774.6609687499999,"end":774.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.72846875,"end":775.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":775.0322187500001,"end":775.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":776.24721875,"end":776.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.26409375,"end":777.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":777.96846875,"end":778.9640937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.135,"end":12.269,"text":"好 非常感謝主席我們就請邱部長好 請邱部長"},{"start":18.499,"end":39.143,"text":"委員好部長好剛剛聽了我們召委一席話自己驚喜啦因為的確得到這個榮譽是不容易而且經過一次這麼大的一個事件能夠趕快站起來持續服務當地的民眾應該是當務之急啦要先打拚了"},{"start":39.844,"end":53.48,"text":"那今天的主題其實是真的很重要因為這是目前讓所有民眾感受到他在這個接近醫療裡面要怎麼改革自己這個身體健康疾病照顧的問題那"},{"start":55.763,"end":74.142,"text":"所以還是能夠透過這個機會請部長再來多一些說明包括在3月3號部長也針對於這個醫院造成這個庸篩還有護理同仁離職的一些部分做相關的說明"},{"start":74.682,"end":93.461,"text":"包括就有這個三短兩長的措施跟計畫來應應那這樣的急診就診人次就開始慢慢趨緩後來現在是三短兩長不是三長兩短所以能夠把事情做得更順利一點"},{"start":94.202,"end":114.262,"text":"那這個部分我們也了解這個你的三短裡面是包括三項這個大家已經都討論過很多次了很多內容今天都已經很了解那中長期的部分剛剛也有很多委員就叫了這個部長有關護理人力還有這個健保支付標準等等"},{"start":115.223,"end":143.718,"text":"不過還是要請部長或者是相關同仁再度的確認一下這些原因到底哪一個是最重要的哪一個是次要的哪一些是相關的因為我們知道做研究的話透過很多因素或者是一些數據的分析才有辦法去找出最重要跟其他相關的因子"},{"start":144.498,"end":165.436,"text":"你這樣未來在做改善的時候才能夠真的有辦法針對一些因素做改善所以部長這部分你看美納分析早有機會找出這個最重要的相關因子或者是最重要的因素來做未來改善的一個基礎"},{"start":166.348,"end":180.881,"text":"好 是的 我想它的原因應該是剛剛委員所列出來的這些都有可能是有相關的因素那是不是在 當然啦我們如果在研究當然有significant的"},{"start":183.292,"end":197.311,"text":"有意義的影響因子或者是有影響因子但是他不到達統計書記當然是在研究的領域但是只要有可能影響的我們都會抓出來來分析來處理包括這裡應該要多一個"},{"start":198.653,"end":213.527,"text":"那個分級醫療是不是沒有落實這樣子那護理能力不足當然是我想是大家公認的啦因為如果能夠傳輸開得更多一點的話是不是可以減緩"},{"start":216.693,"end":241.55,"text":"那當然門診預約住院床位的分配失衡這個就要看醫院的屬性了啦像我譬如說我去跟台大醫院的大家高層朋友談的時候他說他們的內科主任說我的門診也都很重很嚴重啊我不是說趁差就讓他去斷癮啊"},{"start":242.791,"end":245.536,"text":"這也是我們要幫你做參考啦我意思是說 但是這個有在打扮這個有在處理 可利用的床位不足這個部分"},{"start":255.95,"end":284.118,"text":"當然包括說我們是不是好好的應用那我們原來是希望院長去處理那昨天我們跟醫療工會我們敬佩他們提出從護理基層的角度來提出一個一個指引我覺得站在專業的角度上我們非常重視也跟他們取得共識要研究把這個指引就是說你怎麼讓他們的床可以更加靈活我們要聽護理界的指引那"},{"start":284.998,"end":301.674,"text":"另外當然是Infection這個感染這個部分我想在這個孤單期間都會比較有啦所以這些都是原因而且都是要去改善能預防的就預防能解決的就一步一步來解決"},{"start":302.486,"end":313.295,"text":"好因為我們也知道在短期有時候沒有辦法抓到那麼多的數據的話這個我們應該來分析數據啦我覺得有幾種的他們來的一個型態我們再來分析一下對所以其實我們是很建議啦針對於"},{"start":324.025,"end":338.197,"text":"剛剛的那些問題然後特別去分析我們所列舉出來的不管是造成這個擁塞的疾病類型醫院的層級還有在聽您早上的報告裡面也有備案嘛這備案是怎樣這次"},{"start":340.779,"end":362.799,"text":"發揮不了它的作用以前好像都可以透過備案ABC來解決在過年期間這個狀況今年是發生什麼問題沒有辦法讓備案發生那個效果這個就麻煩到時候在一個月左右一個月內可不可以讓我們知道這個分析的結果我們徹底來分析再跟委員報告"},{"start":363.419,"end":385.067,"text":"OK好拜託一下因為這個是對於未來的這個改善應該是我們一定要徹底改善是那另外針對於這個護理人力跟薪資跟流財的部分剛剛也討論了非常多那不知道蔡市長有沒有注意到有這一則公會提供給會員們"},{"start":387.148,"end":413.349,"text":"他們如何在目前的離職草裡面早上剛剛有很多委員說要擺這一點點以上才能夠有機會去跟主管討論離職的部分那這個我們也相信工會是為了他的會員希望能夠針對於一些做法提供一些參考包括說怎麼樣禁書離職的一些好方法或者是適當的方式等等"},{"start":413.769,"end":435.376,"text":"他也提醒在這個過程裡面要注意哪一些的事情包括說如果是想要免排隊就要離職的話是可以怎麼做不過這個是基本上是根據這個勞動基準法第14條的一些處理模式因為他有規定勞工的不經過預告終止契約因為我們知道"},{"start":436.536,"end":461.393,"text":"在這個勞動契約裡面都會宰明說如果要離職的話應該要經過什麼樣的程序嗎博文市長有沒有掌握到相關的信息有有有這個就是工會的這個網頁或是說現在各個工會因為他們要護理人員要異動都要到工會裡面去辦理這個這個不管是進來或是離開或是異動都要辦理那我們跟"},{"start":465.217,"end":492.688,"text":"這個都同步在這個資訊的取得資訊的了解掌握上我們都知道委員剛才提的這個我們也知道有有這樣的一個訊息不過目前如果說有一些同仁是透過這個方式離職的話其實他必須要透過掌握這個固執違法事證才能夠達到這個做法的一個基本要求"},{"start":493.448,"end":509.564,"text":"所以假設真的是這樣做而且人數越來越明顯的話可能也要提醒大家有關於勞工的院方的應變還有在這個造成的一些影響這個都要麻煩市長或者是部長這邊要多多留意"},{"start":510.507,"end":533.874,"text":"我們一定不斷的改善護理的跟醫院來合作啦不斷改善我們醫護的待遇跟醫療的環境那當然那個只要他們在牢記法之下我們都尊重嘛但是我們努力的是能夠留任把那種環境待遇能夠盡量的做好"},{"start":534.994,"end":563.473,"text":"能夠來留任留任更多的護理人力能夠在職場我們共同來照顧病人這是我們的最重要的努力目標因為如果透過這個方法造成離職的話其實對於這位護理同仁來講他很難再回到職場因為這個是一個不愉快過程的話造成影響其實是會蠻影響力會蠻強的所以針對這個改善計畫裡面我們提了一些建議提供給市長跟部長這邊參考"},{"start":564.734,"end":590.507,"text":"就是真的要督導各個醫院要遵守勞動法令跟勞動契約那這個過程必須要真的要去重視他的心聲啦要有好的協商平台跟管道當然很多資訊需要持續的公開透明才能夠讓他們瞭解也避免誤解跟正義這部分也麻煩所以非常好的建議我們一定要醫院來落實是好 再來"},{"start":594.45,"end":623.177,"text":"來往下還有一個小議題那麻煩我們這個食藥署江署長因為最近有在討論這個事後必應藥到底要不要從處方用藥轉到指示用藥可能可以跟其他國家有一些使用上的符合不過也有很多的團體很擔心這樣的調整會造成哪一些的影響"},{"start":623.957,"end":645.345,"text":"所以不知道最近所開會裡面有沒有去掌握到目前這個藥物的使用狀況還有有沒有相關的健康風險的評估那當然現在還很難馬上就做了確定或決定不過如果真的開放以後那造成影響可能需要去面臨的衝擊"},{"start":646.605,"end":658.325,"text":"那有沒有辦法去做好健康最終或者是實名制的可能性那這部分不知道署長有沒有一些現在的一些想法或者是未來的做法提供給大家做參考"},{"start":661.092,"end":685.229,"text":"謝謝委員的提問這都非常關鍵的問題我們在上個禮拜四我們召集了111號人民團體其實有兩位學生以及相關的法規的提到了一個很重要的關鍵那目前我們看到所有的所謂指示用藥的轉類這個過程當中我們有一定的標準那陳委員在現場也非常非常關心"},{"start":685.889,"end":709.397,"text":"我們針對這個議題之後藥界藥師公會裡面也提出他們的想法那也覺得說很多的承諾我們覺得非常非常的有準備那醫界的部分也有提到他們有一點擔心那家長團體裡面特別有一位家長團體他本身對於所謂子宮內膜癌跟乳癌在臨床上面看到的一些些擔心"},{"start":710.117,"end":731.51,"text":"加上學生團體裡面他特別針對他受到的教育跟配套他也覺得說希望我們能夠精進那此外呢各個國家裡面我們鄰近的日本其實也進入了所謂研議這個階段所以我們調處整個的一個過程當中我們覺得很重要的調和蠻重要的我們的經驗是需要去確認的"},{"start":732.651,"end":758.907,"text":"那大家擔心的這一塊我覺得是可以有一個很重要的區域聯防的概念所以我們馬上有責成我們藥品組這邊思考如何去做台灣特殊的經驗跟調處各方能夠得到一個最適切的一個方案那目前持續在積極在研擬當中所以我想在不久的將來我想我們的經驗是會讓大家看到我們的處理是最圓滿的 以上"},{"start":760.208,"end":774.595,"text":"好 非常謝謝署長的說明因為我們看最後一張發動片知道說的確用藥安全還有身體自主權如何達到是需要大家共同來努力好 謝謝署長也謝謝署長謝謝王委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":742,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時35分）非常感謝主席，我們就請邱部長。"],["主席：好，請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。剛剛聽了我們召委一席話，恭喜你，因為的確得到這個榮譽是不容易，而且經過一次這麼大的一個事件，能夠趕快站起來持續服務當地的民眾，應該是當務之急，繼續打拚。","今天的主題，其實這是真的很重要，因為這是目前讓所有民眾感受到，他在醫療方面如何解決自己身體健康與疾病照顧的問題。所以還是能夠透過這個機會，請部長再來多做一些說明，包括在3月3號部長也針對於醫院造成壅塞，還有護理同仁離職的部分做了相關的說明，包括「3短2長」的措施跟計畫來因應，這樣急診的就診人次就開始慢慢趨緩，還好是「3短2長」，不是「3長2短」，所以能夠把事情做得更順利一點。","關於這個部分，我們也瞭解這個「3短」裡面是包括3項，這個大家已經都討論過很多次了，很多內容今天都已經很瞭解。那中長期的部分，剛剛也有很多委員就教了部長，有關護理人力，還有健保支付標準等等。不過還是要請部長或者是相關同仁再度的確認一下，這些原因到底哪一個是最重要的，哪一個是次要的，哪一些是相關的。因為我們知道，做研究的話，透過很多因素或者是一些數據的分析，才有辦法找出最重要跟其他相關的因子。這樣未來在做改善的時候，才能夠真的有辦法針對一些因素做改善。部長，這個部分你看要怎麼分析，才有機會找出這個最重要的相關因子或者是最重要的因素，來做未來改善的一個基礎？"],["邱部長泰源：好，是的，我想它的原因應該是剛剛委員所列出來的這些，都有可能會有相關的因素。當然，我們如果在研究，當然有significant的影響因子，有意義的影響因子，或者是有影響因子但是它不到達統計數據，當然是在研究的領域，但是只要有可能影響的，我們都會抓出來分析、處理，包括這裡應該要多一個分級醫療是不是沒有落實。那護理人力不足，我想是大家公認的，因為如果能夠床數開得更多一點的話是不是可以減緩。當然，急診、門診預約住院床位的分配失衡，這個就要看醫院的屬性了，譬如說我去跟臺大醫院的高層朋友談的時候，他說他們有內科主任說他的門診也都很嚴重，他不是隨便就讓病人去住院……"],["王委員正旭：沒關係，這是要讓部長參考。"],["邱部長泰源：也是癌症的開刀等等，我的意思是，這部分也有在努力處理。"],["王委員正旭：了解。"],["邱部長泰源：可利用的床位不足這個部分，當然包括我們是不是好好的運用。我們原來是希望院長去處理，昨天我們跟醫療公會取得共識，我很敬佩他們從護理基層的角度來提出一個指引。我覺得站在專業的角度上，我們非常重視，也跟他們取得共識，要研究這個指引，就是要怎麼讓醫院的床可以更加靈活，我們要聽護理界的指引。","另外，當然是感染這個部分，我想在過年期間都會比較有，所以這些都是原因，而且都是要去改善，能預防的就預防，能解決的就一步一步來解決。"],["王委員正旭：好，因為我們也知道，在短期有時候沒有辦法抓到那麼多數據的話，這個部分……"],["邱部長泰源：這個我們應該來分析數據，他們來急診的一個型態，我們再來分析一下。"],["王委員正旭：其實我們是很建議，針對剛剛的那些問題，特別去分析我們所列舉出來的，不管是造成壅塞的疾病類型、醫院的層級，還有在聽您早上的報告裡面也有備案。這個備案為什麼這一次發揮不了它的作用？以前好像都可以透過備案ABC來解決過年期間這個狀況。今年是怎麼樣，發生什麼問題，沒有辦法讓備案發生效果？這個就麻煩到時候在一個月內可不可以讓我們知道這個分析的結果？"],["邱部長泰源：好，我們澈底來分析，再跟委員報告。"],["王委員正旭：OK，好，拜託一下，因為這個對於未來的改善，應該是非常重要的指標。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定要澈底改善。"],["王委員正旭：另外，針對於護理人力、薪資跟留才的部分，剛剛也討論了非常多，不知道蔡司長有沒有注意到有這一則工會提供給會員們，他們如何在目前的離職潮裡面，早上剛剛有很多委員說要排一個鐘頭以上，才能夠有機會去跟主管討論離職的部分。我們也相信工會是為了他的會員，希望能夠針對一些作法提供一些參考，包括說怎麼樣儘速離職的一些好方法或者是適當的方式等等。它也提醒在這個過程裡面要注意哪一些的事情，包括說如果是想要免排隊就要離職的話，可以怎麼做。不過這個基本上是根據勞動基準法第十四條的一些處理模式，因為它有規定勞工得不經過預告中止契約。我們知道在勞動契約裡面，都會載明如果要離職的話，應該要經過什麼樣的程序。這個部分司長有沒有掌握到相關的訊息？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：有，這個就是工會的網頁或是說現在各個工會，因為護理人員要異動都要到工會裡面去辦理，不管是進來、離開或是異動都要辦理。我們都同步在這個資訊的瞭解掌握上，我們都知道。委員剛才提的這部分，我們也知道有這樣一個訊息，不過……"],["王委員正旭：目前如果說有一些同仁是透過這個方式離職的話，其實他必須要透過掌握雇主違法事證，才能夠達到這個作法的一個基本要求。所以假設真的是這樣做，而且人數越來越明顯的話，可能也要提醒大家，有關於勞工的、院方的應變，還有造成的一些影響，這都要麻煩司長或是部長要多留意。"],["邱部長泰源：我們一定不斷改善護理的部分，跟醫院來合作，不斷改善我們醫護的待遇跟醫療的環境。當然，只要他們在勞基法之下，我們都尊重嘛！"],["王委員正旭：我們比較擔心的是……"],["邱部長泰源：但是我們努力的是能夠留任，把環境、待遇能夠儘量的做好。"],["王委員正旭：當然，這是減輕我們勞動……"],["邱部長泰源：然後來留任更多的護理人力，能夠在職場共同來照顧病人，這是我們的最重要的努力目標。"],["王委員正旭：因為如果透過這個方法造成離職的話，其實對於這位護理同仁來講，他很難再回到職場，因為這是一個不愉快過程的話，其實造成的影響力會蠻強的。所以針對這個改善計畫裡面，我們也提了一些建議，提供給司長跟部長這邊參考，就是真的要督導各醫院要遵守勞動法令跟勞動契約。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["王委員正旭：這個過程必須要真的去重視基層的心聲，要有好的協商平台跟管道，當然很多資訊需要持續的公開透明，才能夠讓他們了解，也避免誤解跟爭議，這部分也麻煩積極來處理。"],["邱部長泰源：這是非常好的建議，我們一定要醫院來落實。"],["王委員正旭：好，再來還有一個小議題，麻煩我們食藥署姜署長，因為最近有在討論，事後避孕藥到底要不要從處方用藥轉到指示用藥，可能可以跟其他國家有一些使用上的符合，不過也有很多的團體很擔心這樣的調整會造成哪些影響。所以不知道最近所開的會議裡面，有沒有去掌握到目前這個藥物的使用狀況，還有有沒有相關健康風險的評估？當然現在還很難馬上就做確定或決定，不過如果真的開放以後造成的影響及可能需要面臨的衝擊，有沒有辦法去做好健康追蹤或者是實名制的可能性？這部分不知道署長有沒有一些現在的想法或者是未來的做法，提供給大家做參考？"],["姜署長至剛：是，謝謝委員的提問，這都是非常關鍵的問題。我們在上個禮拜四召集了醫、藥、人民團體，其實有兩位學生以及相關的法規，提到了一個很重要的關鍵，目前我們看到所有的所謂指示用藥的轉類過程當中，我們有一定的標準。陳委員在現場也非常非常關心，我們針對這個議題之後，藥界以及藥師公會也提出他們的想法，也覺得很多的承諾都非常非常有準備。醫界的部分也有提到稍微有一點擔心，那家長團體裡面，特別有一位家長，他本身對於所謂子宮內膜癌跟乳癌在臨床上面，他看到的一些些擔心，加上學生團體裡面特別針對所受到的教育跟配套，他也覺得希望我們能夠精進。此外，各個國家裡面，我們鄰近的日本，其實也進入了所謂研議這個階段，所以我們調處整個的過程當中，我們覺得調和是蠻重要的。我們的經驗是需要去確認的，那大家擔心的這一塊，我覺得是可以有一個很重要的區域聯防概念，所以我們馬上有責成藥品組這邊，思考如何去做臺灣特殊的經驗跟調處，各方能夠得到一個最適切的方案。目前在持續積極研擬當中。所以，我想在不久的將來，我們的經驗會讓大家看到我們的處理是最圓滿的，以上。"],["王委員正旭：好，非常謝謝署長的說明。因為我們看最後一張幻燈片就知道，的確，用藥安全還有身體自主權如何達到衡平是需要大家共同來努力的。好，謝謝署長、也謝謝部長。"],["姜署長至剛：謝謝。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉）：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長、署長。","我們接續處理臨時提案，總共2案。","一、","有鑑於衛生福利部所訂之《113年度醫院評鑑及教學醫院評鑑作業程序》規定中，高屏區（高雄市、屏東縣、澎湖縣）醫學中心評定上限應為三家。然而，衛生福利部卻於2024年度醫學中心評鑑結果評定四家醫院成為醫學中心，顯然違反自己設下的規定與門檻，卻無法對外說明清楚原因，導致外界對評定標準與公平性產生疑慮。","依據前揭作業程序規定，當評定家數超過上限時，應依「醫院評鑑成績40%、教學醫院評鑑成績20%、醫學中心任務指標審查成績40%」之標準進行核算，並依總成績高低排序擇優評定為醫學中心。但本次評定過程未明確說明評選標準如何適用，亦未公布各醫院成績排序及決策依據，衛生福利部縱然百般閃躲責任，但事實及違背規則的原因仍亟待釐清。","三、醫學中心升格涉及大量公共資源投入，應確保符合區域醫療規劃及醫療公平性原則，避免造成資源過度集中或其他區域醫院競爭壓力過大。本次評定結果涉及重大公共利益，且監察院已對醫學中心評鑑機制提出糾正，顯示現行評鑑制度存在漏洞，而衛生福利部無視監察院糾正之結果，再次於本次評鑑出現離譜之狀況，更有需要提出完整報告及說明。因此，為確保行政透明及決策合理性，爰提案要求衛生福利部針對此次醫院評鑑再次出現違法升格醫學中心一事向本院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出專案報告，以釐清決策過程及改善未來醫學中心評鑑制度，內容包括但不限於：","(一)本次醫學中心評鑑標準及新增醫學中心的具體理由，以及該醫院升格後對高屏地區醫療資源分配的影響評估。","(二)本次評定程序中各醫院的成績排序及核算結果。","(三)內部簽核至部長之相關決策文件，包含各單位會簽意見。","(四)本次評定結果與既定評鑑標準不符之原因，以及後續如何確保評鑑機制符合既定行政規則。","提案人：陳昭姿　　王育敏　　邱鎮軍","二、","有鑑於衛福部本於應積極發揮對我國罹患「慢性炎症脫髓鞘性多發性神經病變（CIDP）」近500人患者，於加強照顧與醫治，和協助取得適用藥物等應盡之職責。是以，考量當前對CIDP患者僅部份給付主治醫師專案申請成功後的半年IVIG療程，容有措施上再受強化之提升空間，爰決議衛福部應限期於三個月內，以將CIDP納入罕見疾病獲列入重大傷病之前提，完成檢討與規劃作業，俟後並向本委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　蘇清泉　　邱鎮軍"],["主席：好，現在第1案，請問行政單位有沒有意見？"],["劉司長越萍：第1案，委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：這一個提案就是關於醫院評鑑。因為最近我們遇到很多問題，其實都是源始於這個，要落實分流，就會談到分級醫療，談到分級醫療，就會回到醫院評鑑。醫院評鑑的部分，今年以及113年度一項醫院評鑑及教學醫院評鑑作業程序有規定，高屏區醫學中心的評定上限是3家啦！但是你的評鑑結果是跑出4家啦！所以，部長就是違反你自己的規定門檻。這也不是我規定的，結果你違反，但是我們每一次都只看到結果。當然你們有一些作業程序，就是評定家數超過的時候，當然會根據幾個指標，包括醫院評鑑啦、教學結果啦，或是醫學中心任務等等有個百分比，然後根據這個成績的高低去排序、擇優，但是我們一直都沒有看到整個決策的過程或有相當、合理的透明度，只看到不斷地增加，去年一口氣增加3家醫學中心，你們才剛剛寫清楚上限3家，現在又變成4家。那我必須說，醫學中心涉及大量公共投資、資源的投資，應該確保區域醫療規劃跟醫療的公平性，不要造成資源過度集中，或者其他地區醫院在競爭力上壓力非常大。","因為涉及重大公共利益，事實上監察院有提出糾正函！但是你們好像都沒有去重視這件事。所以為了確保行政透明、決策合理性，我們才要求針對醫院評鑑再次出現違規、跟你們自己的規定不符……我先不要談我的見解，而是針對跟你們自己規定不符的結果，所以我希望先做專案報告，包括本次醫學中心的評鑑標準、新增的具體理由，以及該醫院升格後對高屏地區醫療資源分配的影響。","剛剛我們也做了一些溝通，針對第二個，就是本次評定當中的成績排序及核算結果，我們同意不要有這個identity，就是我們並不需要知道是哪一家醫院，我們希望知道的就是到底你們面對原始評分結果是怎麼處理的，當然我們希望看到最後的決策。剛剛還溝通要各單位會簽，如果第3項不要的話，部長，那就是你自己一個人要承擔喔！代表就是你做決定的啊！大家都送到你桌上、讓你做決定啊！","關於本次評定結果與既定評鑑標準不符合的原因，為什麼不符合？你才自己規定3家為上限，現在又跑出1家了，那後續如何確保能夠符合這個行政規則？部長，我的重點是現在大家都喊醫療緊急、護理人員不夠、急診壅塞，但你一方面喊分級醫療，一方面醫學中心又在往上走，我看不懂！好像是兩手策略！一方面鼓勵大醫院一直出來、蓋醫院，還有1萬1,000床等著增加、擴建，一方面又說分級醫療，這是很矛盾的，所以我才就我的專業理解提出這樣的臨時提案，請大家支持，也請衛福部做回應，好嗎？謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好。我想，所有努力都是希望讓人民得到最好的照顧，而我們知道南北醫療資源的不平衡，剛剛蘇召委也提出他們那邊的奮鬥，所以這是很艱難的課題。我也了解昭姿委員，我們長期、幾十年來的奮鬥，共同對分級醫療努力，我也知道你長期關心醫學中心增設，如果沒有處理好，是對醫療體系不好的，我完全了解，所以我們現在也在做醫院評鑑的改革，目前一直在改革。改革的部分，當然第一個會讓醫學中心有升有降，好的留下來，不好的就是降級，醫院評鑑改革的第一重點是在這個地方。第二個，可能要考慮到地區的遼闊性，如果都集中在一個地方，可能真的不適合，就好像只拚那邊。但如果土地遼闊，例如有些地區人口永遠不可能達到200萬人啊！可是它就需要一個更堅強的堡壘來保衛人民的健康，所以針對200萬人這個部分，可能也會在改革裡面做處理。","我跟昭姿委員一樣，認為北部如果有太多醫學中心，真的會變成南北不平衡。在讓它南北不平衡以及未來醫學中心有升有降當中，我們必須做一件事情：先讓它南北平衡，這是一個概念啦！第二個概念是我完全知道我必須面對陳昭姿委員、我幾十年來老戰友的挑戰，這是很痛苦、也很天人交戰，但是又必須為人民而做的努力。當然，所有決策我必須負全部的責任，我想我先講清楚：我願意承擔所有責任，但要給我機會來講整個決策的過程，甚至我們的努力可以改變未來整個臺灣的醫療體系。","關於南部，當然永遠都是那3家嘛！各位要知道，醫學中心要保持在醫學中心比較容易，準醫學中心或區域醫院要晉升到醫學中心則是很辛苦的。為什麼？它要付出醫學中心的人力跟設備、要達到評鑑標準，而且剛開始可能只能得到準醫學中心。我們知道南部有一家準醫學中心7年了，作為準醫學中心，它的服務包括了屏東、包括了高雄山區，但如果要以人口去算，永遠、永遠不可能讓它……它已經投入那麼多了，為什麼要投入那麼多？就是因為人民的需要，所以必須用醫學中心的標準來服務民眾，它也願意到偏鄉，我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：主席，我可以跟他對話嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒關係，我可以。"],["陳委員昭姿：我可以直接對話嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：沒問題、沒問題，請。"],["陳委員昭姿：你如果覺得你們在做這個醫院評鑑作業程序的時候，認為南高可能需要再一家中心的話，為什麼在113年的作業程序中還要訂上限是3家？我現在是針對……"],["邱部長泰源：我知道。"],["陳委員昭姿：你這樣規定，自己卻違規嘛！你的需求我聽得懂嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：向委員報告，我們的醫學中心4年才評一次啦！不是每年評。"],["陳委員昭姿：可是你馬上就犯規啊！"],["邱部長泰源：4年評一次是規定，但我們也要站在人民的需求考慮，還有南部……"],["陳委員昭姿：不！那是你定的啊！你自己定的啊！"],["邱部長泰源：南部幾乎所有立委都站在人民立場呼籲、強烈地呼籲，也在這裡質詢，我們不能不回應啦！所以那雖然是規定，像去年也是……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，那你的意思是跟我說這個規定就像聽聽看、參考用啦！"],["邱部長泰源：不是啦！人民……"],["陳委員昭姿：我今天沒有談大方向，我只談你提的規定。"],["邱部長泰源：人民的需求勝過我們一般可以行政的規定啦！如果這個有違反規定，我願意負全責啦！但是我必須說明，我必須考慮到如果要到4年後再評估一次，我覺得對於南北平衡是不平衡的。跟委員報告，減緩……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你既然……"],["邱部長泰源：要減緩北部增加幾家的影響，最好的方式就是讓南部加強、讓南北均衡。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，要按照人口需求，這個大家都知道、非常合理……"],["邱部長泰源：還有地形的因素……"],["陳委員昭姿：我的結論是你訂定……然後你說醫學中心要付出代價，我們同意，可是你沒有講另外一面：對醫學中心也很有好處啊！它的給付層級愈高、給付愈多啊！議價能力更強啊！可以買醫材、買藥品。民眾也都要去，因為你們都一直鼓勵蓋大醫院，就讓他們覺得醫中好棒棒嘛！就是很棒嘛！所以今天整個導向……"],["邱部長泰源：如果今天發生在別人的身上，我不敢講。但今天發生在我邱某人，各位也知道，我最強調分級醫療、我最強調基層醫療，我不可能要加強醫學中心的量數，問題是民眾的需要。我們都評估喔！它到底對於財務的衝擊如何？在當地的高屏區是只到達0.01%。"],["陳委員昭姿：那你要檢討的是醫療網那個原始計畫，如果你覺得200萬不行，就不要讓它擱在那裡。健保法有多少條法擱在那邊都不動？這樣永遠會讓我們立法委員……"],["邱部長泰源：因為你最了解，也一直在……"],["陳委員昭姿：我同意你修改啊！作業程序……"],["邱部長泰源：我希望委員能夠諒解到，南北平衡的問題如果不現在處理、4年後再去做，人民的健康不能等4年啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：南部的民眾要照顧，但是北北已經破了嘛！七百多萬人口已經有10家啦！"],["邱部長泰源：但是我們現在有一個規定，就是下一次評鑑……"],["陳委員昭姿：真的嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：就是有升有降，這是最堅定的原則。而且……"],["陳委員昭姿：上一次說要降的都沒降啊！一下子增3家啊！"],["邱部長泰源：沒有啊！上次是升啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：好，你不負責喔？那次不是你，好。"],["邱部長泰源：老實講，我跟南部任何一家醫學中心都沒有任何關係，我只有跟臺大雲林分院、也就是建國那邊比較有關係而已。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我今天只是希望你們能夠做個報告，因為醫療評鑑關係到現在整個氛圍。整個醫療氛圍大概都回到分級醫療，那分級醫療怎麼來的？就是當初有評鑑嘛！有評鑑！"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，讓7年的準醫學中心做醫學中心有一個好處啦！它真的就是看急重症的人。因為它的掛號費比較多，會減少一些可能是輕症的病人。"],["陳委員昭姿：那可以……"],["邱部長泰源：會幫忙其下的區域醫院……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你現在說的，可以在這次報告、專案報告裡好好把你想要做檢討的……"],["邱部長泰源：我們可以把這些跟你報告，沒關係啊！我非常願意做報告，因為這是我們共同的理念。"],["陳委員昭姿：它不是單純的醫院評鑑，而是會造成影響的，aftereffect後面的作用、影響是非常大的。"],["邱部長泰源：我們沒有……因為只要南北平衡……"],["陳委員昭姿：原本是要分級醫療，你現在卻讓民眾覺得只有大醫院能夠照顧我。"],["邱部長泰源：像中部，中部的幾個醫院也真的非常努力喔！臺大雲林分院品質非常高，大林慈濟醫院、還有嘉基，這幾個都非常地努力。但問題、不一樣的是，南部那家有7年作為準醫學中心了。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你也要處理健保，健保的問題我們都還在爭執。你知道上次也有一家要降為「準」，你就沒有讓它降，變成3家，那就等於額外增加2家，照衛福部當時評估，就要多一億多點喔！也就是說，財務評估其實還是在的喔！你說那個部分，但相對上，我為什麼說應該要整個……"],["邱部長泰源：我們可以請石署長來報告一下南部高屏這樣多一家的影響與財務評估。"],["陳委員昭姿：我是希望那是更大的議題啦！我們在預算的部分可以討論，但是今天是不是……我沒有麻煩到署長，是因為今天的臨時提案就是針對今年嘛！你剛剛才公布的東西馬上就沒有遵守，我們不知道發生什麼事情。"],["邱部長泰源：我們每天在這邊努力，就是希望……譬如護理人力不足，我們就馬上想盡辦法調整法令、調整獎勵措施，我們為什麼不能對人民的健康、對南北的資源隨時努力、隨時調整？難道我要等4年嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，就是因為這次急診壅塞反映了分級醫療的問題嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：請委員一定要諒解啦！諒解到我們每一天都在爭取人民的權利、是不能等的，如果我再等4年、讓它閒在那邊，上不上、下不下也不好，應讓它好好發揮現在有的角色，也可以平衡南北。"],["陳委員昭姿：OK，我了解啦！針對我們的討論，林淑芬委員他們也是要評鑑啦！","基本上，關於我臨時提案的部分，我再跟部長做個確認啦！除了第3項之外，其他我都希望給予保留啦！就是在專案報告裡面要包含這些內容啦！把評鑑的……"],["邱部長泰源：第一，我還是拜託委員不要在裡面提到「違法」或者是怎麼樣，那太傷感情了，我已經被你在立法院的議事錄裡面留下很多「違法」的……"],["陳委員昭姿：「違規」啦！「違規」啦！「違規」啦！你們自己的規定。"],["邱部長泰源：前面有很多，我拜託你修改，但你好像沒有幫我改。我過去在立法院8年，得了多少次優良立委，結果你的質詢稿都把我寫成「違法」、「違」什麼的，情何以堪啦！商量一下啦！因為我真的是站在人民的立場，所以這部分剛剛……"],["陳委員昭姿：我這麼認真，也都被你的支持者罵到臭頭啊！"],["邱部長泰源：真的喔？"],["陳委員昭姿：我的法案啊！還有綠營的朋友啊！是啊！我這麼認真、多專業啊！"],["邱部長泰源：不會啦！你很努力啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：我們回到你自己的規範……"],["邱部長泰源：所以前面不要寫違法不違法啦！我只是說我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：好啦！因為我不要耽誤別的立委的時間。"],["邱部長泰源：然後，關於第一點，就是為什麼增加的理由，我可以具體來寫，沒問題，好不好？以及升格以後對高屏地區資源的影響，這個OK。然後，評定程序的……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們不要耽誤別的委員質詢的時間，就大原則是往這個方向走，那我們再來討論。"],["邱部長泰源：不，不過你如果要通過提案，變成就是要按照這樣來，所以……"],["陳委員昭姿：我剛剛有跟司長做溝通了啦！"],["邱部長泰源：要講清楚一下啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：因為召委已經站起來，我想還是要把時間留給其他委員。"],["邱部長泰源：召委，你怎麼看？"],["主席：現在是否要處理啦？"],["邱部長泰源：現在正在處理這案，不是嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：要處理啦！就是要處理這件，但是文字我們覺得可以做修正啦！我們可以再討論。"],["邱部長泰源：我是希望修正。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，文字討論。"],["邱部長泰源：還是再討論一下、等一下再跟你討論一下。"],["陳委員昭姿：文字我們討論一下，我不會馬上離開。"],["邱部長泰源：我再跟委員討論一下好了。"],["主席：第1案先保留，劉司長再跟委員溝通一下。","第2案，趕快處理第2案。行政單位有沒有意見？"],["邱部長泰源：這個已經跟委員溝通完畢，會協助提出。沒有意見啦！就是針對申請列入罕病審議，3個月內就辦理情況提交書面報告。"],["主席：就照修訂這個嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：不，好像有改文字，文字要不要唸一下？"],["主席：唸一下好不好？"],["林組長宇旋：有關文字修改的部分：有鑑於衛生福利部本應積極發揮我國罹患「慢性炎症脫髓鞘性多發性神經病變（CIDP）」近500人患者，於加強照顧與醫治，和協助取得適用藥物等應盡之職責。是以，考量當前對CIDP尚未列入罕見疾病，爰決議衛生福利部應協助提供收治病人醫療機構或病友團體有關列入罕見疾病之申請審查程序，俟後並於三個月內向本委員會提交書面報告。以上。"],["主席：陳委員沒有意見喔？"],["邱部長泰源：已經有溝通了。"],["主席：好，第2案就照修正後通過。","第1案先保留。","現在請林淑芬委員質詢，8加4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","羅智強","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","劉建國","陳培瑜","楊曜","王義川"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00005"}}},{"id":"159126","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159126","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f6bea8f1438d85975fc7dc3b86466824cff1cdb1affc83ff492aeab3b46f231cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:35:48 - 11:47:40","影片長度":"00:11:52","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:35:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:47:40+08:00","duration":712,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.8990937500000005,"end":9.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.953468750000003,"end":10.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.67909375,"end":10.746593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.78846875,"end":13.480343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.868468750000002,"end":16.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.93534375,"end":17.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.45846875,"end":72.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.30659375,"end":100.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.65659375000001,"end":111.20346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.70971875000001,"end":119.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.10096875,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.69534375,"end":192.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.70659375,"end":160.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.53721875000002,"end":162.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.33784375000002,"end":169.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.22034375,"end":199.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.35409375,"end":221.53221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.53221875000003,"end":241.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.98659375000003,"end":231.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.56409375,"end":234.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.31409375,"end":246.52409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.41471875000002,"end":273.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.31846875,"end":266.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.55784375,"end":288.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.91971875,"end":280.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.32346875,"end":294.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.84159375,"end":294.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.24659375000005,"end":295.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.00596875,"end":298.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.87034375,"end":390.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.69971875000005,"end":459.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.08159375,"end":473.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.15534375000004,"end":493.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.72596875000005,"end":496.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.98284375000003,"end":499.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.98659375000005,"end":503.32784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.25659375000004,"end":501.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.53471875,"end":504.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.03221875,"end":541.3640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.56659375,"end":542.0222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.8490937500001,"end":587.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.82096875,"end":587.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.1584687500001,"end":608.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.1765937499999,"end":615.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.76596875,"end":620.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.03096875,"end":621.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.0478437500001,"end":699.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.07659375,"end":626.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.2622187500001,"end":626.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.30534375,"end":674.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.1115937500001,"end":699.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.4153437500001,"end":708.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":708.74721875,"end":712.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.43909375,"end":709.6415937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.063,"end":31.132,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請次長麻煩次長我先好好 次長好 我的投影片先好 次長我想這個創意私房事件的事情跟相關新聞進度你應該有所追蹤但是我想要提醒次長我們發現在實務上有一些問題可能是接下來我們要共同面對跟溝通跟解決的"},{"start":31.912,"end":59.309,"text":"在相關的報道章當中呢檢察官陳祥威檢察官他在接受訪問的時候說現行的法院下一章對於刑事訴訟法當中規定的管轄權通常是以犯罪地點來認定可是實務上的困境就是雖然檢察官知道被害人位於台中可是陳偉祥檢察官他跟台中地院申請羈押的時候台中地方法院認為行為人持有影片的時候是在新北所以台中沒有管轄權"},{"start":60.109,"end":78.015,"text":"那他就必須要移請新北檢察官來申請羈押實務上有這個困境我相信不是只有這個案例那我不知道次長你覺得我們在這一類的案件上可不可以有機會放寬漸減各位報告我們現在管轄的規定是按照被告的犯罪地住所地跟居所地"},{"start":78.855,"end":100.529,"text":"那駐守區居酒隊相對的這個明確那犯罪地上事實上它包括行為地跟結果地不是單純的只有一個行為地而且行為地的概念行為的概念不是單一的概念行為也起一個延續性的概念在一些延續性的犯罪它的行為地也起一個有數個更何況我們刑法上所謂的結果地所謂的行為地呢犯罪地還包括結果地"},{"start":100.709,"end":119.341,"text":"是沒錯也就是說有這麼多複雜的狀況但是實務上我們可以怎麼樣讓相關的基層人員在相關調查的過程當中工作的過程當中可以更有效率因為我覺得他們在調查這一次的案件的時候他們已經提出這個實務上的困境那我相信這位檢察官他絕對知道您所剛講的那些"},{"start":120.081,"end":141.294,"text":"這涉及到另外一個實務上的見解就是我們在網路上到各地在上網瀏覽這個相關的性行為它的所在地上網這個地方是不是所謂的犯罪地這實務上實際上是正反兩個見解嘛那有些人認為是我在哪裡上網它就是一個行為地但是有些法院認為就等於我們管轄權就"},{"start":142.415,"end":158.846,"text":"沒有規範的 因為到處上網 到處都有管轄 全世界都可以管轄所以有些法律的見解 認為這個結果低害財股比較限縮所以看起來 沒關係 那次長因為時間有限 看起來您的見解呢我可以明白 可是我相信在實務上 檢察官在第一線辦案的辛苦 你一定也很清楚"},{"start":159.446,"end":185.593,"text":"所以我想後續一定是得開啟更多的討論那是不是我今天就在這裡先提出問題我們後續想辦法來關心跟去請請第一線的聲音好不好好沒問題好我就先提出這個建議喔那接下來在相關的報導當中呢這個檢察官再次提醒我覺得這個事情就比較容易可以解決他說呢在刑事訴訟法101條之一當中因為被告如果我們懷疑他有反覆實行犯刑之餘而得羈押的要件在相關的法條當中"},{"start":186.713,"end":204.458,"text":"目前為止並沒有把兒少性剝削防治條例的犯罪納入範圍但是我個人認為兒少性影片相關這些人製造者散播者或者是去在民間在網路上拐騙很多兒少的這些人他們"},{"start":205.138,"end":219.483,"text":"當然絕對有高度可能反覆犯案的疑慮不是嗎那我當然知道在之前的刑事訴訟法101條之一當中沒有寫到這個部分但是我認為網路犯罪形態跟過往的犯罪形態已經很不一樣了是不是我們這個時候應該來啟動這個討論"},{"start":221.624,"end":240.613,"text":"好跟委員報告的確我們如果我們羈押有兩種可能性如果委員剛提的一防性羈押的確他必須要法條101之一所列舉的犯罪才有可能但這個因為這個法條已經擺很久了沒有修正了那現在新興的很多新興的犯罪產生這條犯罪的確有可以檢討有些犯罪的確有反覆實施的可能性"},{"start":241.433,"end":270.289,"text":"這個檢討我知道你們也很忙我們可不可以有一個時間感我們共同來促進這件事情就是說我們羈押除了這個預防性羈押還有我們100條的普通羈押就是說它有串供啊或相關的這個逃亡的事實它也有可能符合羈押要件並不是說一定要把它擺在101-1的預防性羈押才可以羈押它其實有不同的羈押啦當然委員提的沒有錯預防性羈押這個犯罪的罪名的確需要檢討要不然它跟不上我們現在立法院訂的很多新新的法律嘛它跟不上"},{"start":270.889,"end":297.95,"text":"因為他才列舉立法就有這個缺毀好沒問題但是我也非常聽到次長剛非常正向的回應就是你也認為確實一他很久沒有討論沒有修了那確實與時俱進的情況下站在保護兒少我們國家宣誓要積極保護兒少的情況下我認為我們共同來面對這個難題好不好各位報告當然這部分法律它是司法院主管的法規我們當然會跟司法院反映委員剛才所提的這個事務上的問題沒有問題喔那我想我們可以積極地做更多的事情來下一張"},{"start":298.931,"end":320.922,"text":"嗯 好 我們直接來看矯正學校的業務喔相關的那個性影像犯罪的部分我們之後積極來討論矯正學校其實也是歸法務部的矯正署所主管喔其實在四年前有監察院相關的報告甚至到今年的一月份監察院又提出相關的糾正案那我想要跟次長說明為什麼我今天在第一次司法法治委會我就要關心少年矯正學校事實上我之前在"},{"start":321.682,"end":337.123,"text":"教育化委員會的時候我們因著修特教法我們發現有大量適應體育要求適應體育需求的學生或者是有許多特教特職的孩子或者是我們在修學輔法的過程當中發現兒少身心健康的需求不會只落在一般的國民中小學"},{"start":337.523,"end":360.583,"text":"或高中他其實在少角學校有大量的需求而且這幾年孩子們原生家庭的狀態社區環境的狀態網路生活的狀態越趨複雜導致於孩子們最後進入角校的時候其實身上是千瘡百孔帶著非常多身心健康的議題甚至他原來有的特教特職沒有被發現所以他進入少角學校之後校長很頭痛行政人員很頭痛特教老師很頭痛輔導老師很頭痛行政人員很頭痛也就是說"},{"start":365.047,"end":388.382,"text":"當這些孩子複雜的樣態最後進到矯正學校大家共同有能力看見大家有意識想要共同解決的時候我們相關矯正署的資源跟國教署的對接有沒有服務到位有沒有讓這些在幫助我們的孩子大人們他們覺得有受到行政系統的支持所以他們有能量有意願有能力去服務現場的孩子我想這個部分的議題很大我今天就是先切一個簡單的要點好來下一張"},{"start":391.738,"end":410.95,"text":"之前莊惠雄委員提醒過這件事情我就先跟次長您說明一下目前四所矯正學校人員的流動率是如何其實我們並不清楚可是流動率的穩定其實就取決於這個現場的行政資源系統有沒有健全老師們行政人員有沒有覺得自己是有能量繼續服務我們的孩子還有"},{"start":411.81,"end":438.456,"text":"新進人員他們其實也需要相關增能的訓練跟後續的行政支持還有一旦到職之後他們開始服務孩子他們所遇到的困難向上呈報的時候有沒有被支持為什麼會說這麼仔細花這麼多時間我事實上之前在一整去年一整年當中我自己花了很多力去去參加相關的民間的研討會我自己就是學員我身在其中我聽到很多少角校的心理師老師行政人員校甚至校長告訴我們他們的困境所以我這邊"},{"start":439.256,"end":457.817,"text":"今天第一次的司法今天的質詢我想要告訴次長後續我會在這個議題上多所關注我真的很希望我們一起努力推進改革現場的很多狀態老師心理師社工師學校行政人員他們的穩定他們的被支持才能夠服務到我們的孩子這個部分可不可以請次長簡單回應一下"},{"start":460.6,"end":473.995,"text":"這絕對是我們法國部矯正追求的目標事實上我們矯正署的四個矯正學校我們都邊有專有的這個特教人員輔導人員新設人力這都有專專而且他是專屬的人力這部分也是我們一直在意因為我知道都有"},{"start":474.295,"end":499.38,"text":"我知道都有那我相信還有很多現場的困境需要我們共同來面對好不好當然還協同國教署好那最後要講一個是關於少角校還有關務所的處遇實施條例在你們今天的業務報告裡面你們提出有相關修法的可能你們已經嚴寧出這個處遇實施條例我想要問一下目前的進度跟委員報告這兩個條例我們目前都送到行政院審查都已經送到行政院了好那可不可以先提供給我們辦公室"},{"start":500.32,"end":503.102,"text":"我想我談了這麼多少角色的議題或者是剛剛關於那個性侵而上性剝削影像的問題其實他都有跨部會的難題"},{"start":519.474,"end":541.202,"text":"他都有跨部會要討還有跨相關法規所以我相信在整個盤點上會花很大的力氣跟時間所以我想要聽一下次長在我剛剛不管講的是影像的部分或者是後續的討論還有少角色的部分我們到底有哪些切入的重點你覺得你可以在這邊做一個宣示做一個討論讓我們更加放心這個議題我們往下走的方向會是一致的"},{"start":542.958,"end":567.686,"text":"少角校的學員他有雙重身份 他當然是犯錯的人但他還是個學生 受年齡的學生所以基本上我們對待他也是參照我們教育部所頒的相關的通則來當作學生來處理相關的課綱我們也比照教育部所規範來處理所以我們在整個修法過程當中我們都希望參照教育部所規範跟我們一般的學生做等同的處理"},{"start":568.206,"end":587.603,"text":"但是校長教授畢竟他有另外身份學生他有另外身份他是一個有經過改化教育的一個學生所以怎麼樣中間取得平衡對我們來講其實管教跟教育本身我們要抓一個平衡來講我們希望透過我們剛剛送到行政院這兩個條例我們做一個平衡立法上做一個平衡"},{"start":588.303,"end":615.231,"text":"我可不可以問一下那目前我們遇到一個困境這個也是我們在實際的現場上聽到的聲音矯正學生的留在矯校的時間或長或短每一個人的狀態不一樣來來去去對不對那他們離校之後如果他們還是未成年他們必須要回到社區的學校系統當中目前這個部分的界階跟社區的界階跟國家組在內的界階我們在他離校前三個月我們當然會進行相關的轉嫌嘛轉嫌完之後我們也按照相關規定我們去追撫而且要追撫到一年"},{"start":615.871,"end":639.552,"text":"所以我們是完全符合相關的規定他離校了之後我們還繼續去追復他一年這個追蹤一年的很多成效我覺得我們一定還有很多實質內容可以討論那另外我也想問我們如何確保矯正學校裡面所教的內容其實是符合孩子們的需求因為我知道這幾年大家在討論角效的時候除了有所謂我們對於原本教育的想像我們更希望引進多元的資源給這些孩子"},{"start":639.872,"end":654.64,"text":"可是當我們引進這些資源跟原來的學校課程做搭配還要搭配他們原本很多行政的流程會不會其實也間接造成現場人員的負擔造成孩子的負擔還有就是當孩子的犯罪型態這麼多元孩子的原生家庭的生命經驗如此複雜的時候"},{"start":655.64,"end":672.846,"text":"我們要怎麼能夠確保我們能夠提供給這些孩子不管是您剛剛說的學術型的教育一般型的教育或者是感化型管教型的教育真的可以幫助到這個孩子因為我們在想像的是他走出少角校之後他回到學校他有一天會成年我們都希望他回到成人監獄的機會越來越低"},{"start":674.546,"end":695.821,"text":"而這個數字是往下降我覺得這才是最美好的願景甚至孩子們在離開腳校之後他會相信這個世界這個社會是願意接納他的那我也想要拜託次長我們在後續的很多議題上不管是學校的課程內容或者是我剛剛說的我們成人這個部分的工作行政的支持整個後援系統的支持還有在學校裡面的課程這些事情我認為我們都有很多"},{"start":696.321,"end":707.513,"text":"還需要密切的討論 好嗎好 謝謝 萬成贊成不好意思 剛剛這麼多同仁跑出來你們需要補充回答嗎還是我們其實今天就是做一個開始然後後續我們會有非常多細節需要討論好 謝謝委員好 謝謝市長 謝謝各位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1204,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時35分）謝謝主席。有請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長好。次長，創意私房事件和相關新聞，您應該有所追蹤，但是本席想提醒次長，我們發現在實務上有一些問題，可能是接下來我們要共同面對、溝通和解決的。在相關的報導當中，陳祥薇檢察官在接受訪問的時候說到，現行法院對於刑事訴訟法當中規定的管轄權，通常是以犯罪地點認定。","但實務上的困境是，雖然檢察官知道被害人位於臺中，可是當陳祥薇檢察官向臺中地院申請羈押的時候，臺中地方法院認為行為人持有影片的時候是在新北，臺中沒有管轄權，所以必須移請新北檢察官申請羈押，實務上有這個困境，本席相信不是只有這個案例。次長，你覺得這類案件是否有機會放寬見解？"],["黃次長謀信：我們現在管轄的規定是按照被告的犯罪地、住所地和居所地，住所及居所地相對明確，至於犯罪地，事實上包括行為地和結果地，不是單純的只有一個行為地。而且行為地的概念，因為行為不是單一的概念，行為也許是延續性的，在一些延續性的犯罪，它的行為地也許有數個，更何況刑法所謂的犯罪地還包括結果地。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯。也就是說有這麼多複雜的狀況，在實務上，我們怎麼讓相關基層人員在調查過程或是工作過程當中更有效率？因為他們在調查這次的案件時，就提出這個實務上的困境，本席相信這位檢察官絕對知道您剛才說的那些內容。"],["黃次長謀信：對。這涉及到另外的實務上見解，就是在各地上網瀏覽相關性影音的行為，他的所在地就是上網這個地方，是不是所謂的犯罪地？這在實務上有正反兩個見解。有些人認為是，在哪裡上網，它就是行為地，但是有些法院認為就管轄權來說，這部分並沒有規範，因為到處上網，到處都有管轄，全世界都可以管轄，所以有些法律見解是認為結果地會比較限縮，就是上網這件事情。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，次長，因為時間有限。本席可以明白您的見解，可是本席相信在實務上，檢察官在第一線辦案的辛苦，您一定也很清楚。"],["黃次長謀信：完全理解。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以本席認為後續一定得開啟更多討論，因此本席今天在這裡先提出問題，後續我們再想辦法關心，傾聽第一線的聲音，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：好，沒問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，本席是先提出這個建議。在相關報導當中，這個檢察官也再次提醒，本席覺得這件事情比較容易解決，就是刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一，如果懷疑被告有反覆實行犯行之虞而得羈押的要件，在相關法條當中，目前並沒有把兒少性剝削防制條例的犯罪納入範圍。但是本席個人認為，和兒少性影片相關的這些人，不管是製造者、散播者，或者是在民間、在網路上拐騙兒少的人，這些人絕對有高度反覆犯案的疑慮，不是嗎？","本席當然知道，刑事訴訟法第一百零一條之一沒有寫到這個部分，但是本席認為網路犯罪形態和過往的犯罪形態已經很不一樣，這個時候我們是不是應該啟動相關討論？"],["黃次長謀信：的確，羈押有兩種可能性，如果是委員剛剛提的預防性羈押，的確必須要有法條第一百零一條之一所列舉的犯罪條件才行。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯。"],["黃次長謀信：但是因為這個法條已經實施很久，也沒有修正，現在很多新興犯罪產生，這一條的確可以檢討，有些犯罪的確有反覆實施的可能性。"],["陳委員培瑜：本席知道你們也很忙，我們可不可以設定一個時間，共同促進這件事情？"],["黃次長謀信：我補充一下，我們的羈押除了預防性羈押，還有第一百條的普通羈押，就是他有串供或逃亡的事實，也有可能符合羈押要件，並不是一定要符合第一百零一條之一才能做預防性羈押，其實有不同的羈押啦！當然，委員提的沒有錯，預防性羈押這個犯罪罪名的確需要檢討，要不然它跟不上現在立法院訂定的很多新興法律嘛！因為它採用列舉式的立法，所以會有這個缺漏。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒問題。本席有聽到次長剛剛非常正向的回應，就是你也認為確實是這樣，第一，它很久沒有討論、修正，法律應該要與時俱進，在國家宣誓要積極保護兒少的情況下，我們共同面對這個難題，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：這部分的法律是司法院主管的法規，我們也會向司法院反映委員剛剛所提的實務上問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒有問題，我們可以積極的做更多事情。我們直接來看矯正學校的業務，相關的性影像犯罪部分，我們之後再積極討論。矯正學校其實也是歸法務部的矯正署主管，4年前監察院有提出相關報告，甚至在今年的1月份，監察院又提出相關糾正案。本席想要向次長說明，為什麼今天司法及法制委員會第一次開會，本席就要關心少年矯正學校的議題。","事實上之前在教育及文化委員會的時候，因為修特教法，我們發現有大量適應體育需求的學生，或者有許多特教特質的孩子，或者是我們在修學輔法的過程當中，發現兒少身心健康的需求不會只落在一般的國民中小學或高中，其實少矯學校也有大量的需求。而且這幾年孩子們原生家庭的狀態、社區環境的狀態、網路生活的狀態越趨複雜，導致孩子們最後進入矯校的時候，其實身上千瘡百孔，帶著非常多身心健康的議題，甚至是他的特教特質沒有被發現，所以他進入少矯學校之後，校長很頭痛，行政人員很頭痛，特教老師很頭痛，輔導老師很頭痛，行政人員很頭痛。也就是說，當這些孩子帶著複雜的樣態進到矯正署，大家看見、也有意識想要共同解決的時候，矯正署的相關資源和國教署的對接有沒有服務到位？有沒有讓這些幫助孩子的大人們感受到行政系統的支持？讓他們有能量、有意願、有能力去服務現場的孩子，本席認為這個部分的議題很大，今天先簡單點出一個要點。","之前莊瑞雄委員有提醒過這件事情，本席先向次長說明一下，目前4所矯正學校人員的流動率如何？其實我們並不清楚，可是流動率的穩定，其實取決於現場的行政資源系統是否健全？老師們、行政人員是否有能量繼續服務孩子？還有，新進人員其實也需要相關增能的訓練和後續的行政支持。另外，一旦到職之後，他們開始服務孩子後所遇到的困難，向上呈報的時候有沒有被支持？","為什麼本席會花這麼多時間說的這麼仔細？事實上去年一整年，本席花了很多力氣去參加相關的民間研討會，因為本席就是學員，也身在其中，所以聽到很多少矯校的心理師、老師、行政人員訴說他們的困境，甚至包括校長。今天的質詢本席想要告訴次長，後續本席會就這個議題多所關注，因為本席真的很希望我們能夠一起努力，推進、改革現場的很多狀態。老師、心理師、社工師、學校行政人員，他們能夠穩定的被支持，才能夠服務我們的孩子。這個部分可不可以請次長簡單回應一下？"],["黃次長謀信：這絕對是法務部矯正追求的目標。事實上矯正署的4所矯正學校都有編專任的特教人員、輔導人員、心社人力，而且是專屬的人力，這部分也是我們一直在意的，因為……"],["陳委員培瑜：本席知道這些都有，但本席相信現場還有很多困境需要共同面對，好不好？當然還要協同國教署。","最後要說的是關於少矯校和觀護所處遇實施條例，你們今天的業務報告有提出相關修法的可能，也研擬出處遇實施條例，本席想要問一下目前的進度。"],["黃次長謀信：目前這兩個條例都送到行政院審查了。"],["陳委員培瑜：都已經送到行政院了？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：可不可以先提供給我們辦公室？"],["黃次長謀信：條例的草案要經過行政院審查。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，我們就先等待你們的進度。本席談了這麼多少矯校的議題，或者是剛剛關於兒少性剝削影像的問題，其實都有跨部會的難題，需要跨部會討論，而且橫跨相關法規，所以本席相信在盤點時會花很大的力氣和時間。本席想要聽一下次長的意見，不管是本席剛才說的影像部分，或者是後續的討論，還有少矯校的部分，到底有哪些可以切入的重點，你可以在這邊宣示、討論？這樣才能讓我們更加放心，知道這個議題往下走的時候，我們的方向是一致的。"],["黃次長謀信：少矯校的學員有雙重身分。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["黃次長謀信：他當然是犯錯的人，但他還是個學生，是學齡的學生，所以基本上，我們對待他也是參照教育部所頒的相關通則，當作學生來處理，相關的課綱我們也比照教育部所定的課綱來處理。所以我們在整個修法過程當中，都希望參照教育部所規範的，跟一般學生做等同的處理。但是少矯校的學生畢竟還有另外的身分，他是一個經過感化教育的學生，所以怎麼樣在中間取得平衡，對我們來講，其實管教跟教育本身，我們要抓一個平衡，希望透過剛剛送到行政院的這兩個條例來平衡，在立法上平衡。"],["陳委員培瑜：我可不可以問一下，目前我們遇到一個困境，這個也是我們在實際現場上聽到的聲音，矯正學生留在矯校的時間或長或短，每一個人的狀態不一樣，來來去去，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：他們離校之後，如果他們還是未成年，他們必須要回到社區的學校系統當中，目前這個部分的介接，跟社區的介接，跟國教署的介接……"],["黃次長謀信：我們在他離校前三個月，當然會進行相關的轉銜，轉銜完之後，我們也按照相關規定去追輔，而且要追輔到一年，所以我們是完全符合相關規定，就是他離校了之後，我們還繼續去追輔他一年。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。這個追蹤一年的很多成效，我覺得我們一定還有很多實質內容可以討論。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：另外，我也想問我們如何確保矯正學校裡面所教的內容是符合孩子們的需求？因為我知道，這幾年大家在討論矯校的時候，除了有所謂我們對於原本教育的想像，我們更希望引進多元的資源給這些孩子，可是當我們引進這些資源跟原來的學校課程搭配，還要搭配他們原本很多行政的流程，會不會其實也間接造成現場人員的負擔？造成孩子的負擔？還有當孩子的犯罪型態這麼多元，孩子的原生家庭生命經驗如此複雜的時候，我們要怎麼能夠確保我們能夠提供給這些孩子，不管是您剛剛說的學術型的教育、一般型的教育，或者是感化型、管教型的教育，真的可以幫助到這個孩子？因為我們在想像的是，他走出少矯校之後，他回到學校，他有一天會成年，我們都希望他回到成人監獄的機會越來越低，而這個數字是往下降的，我覺得這才是最美好的願景。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：甚至孩子們在離開矯校之後，他會相信這個世界、這個社會是願意接納他的。我也想要拜託次長，我們在後續的很多議題上，不管是學校的課程內容，或者是我剛剛說的，成人這個部分的工作、行政的支持、整個後援系統的支持，還有在學校裡面的課程這些事情，我認為我們都有很多還需要密切討論，好嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：好，謝謝，完全贊成。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。不好意思，剛剛這麼多同仁跑出來，你們需要補充回答嗎？還是我們其實今天就是做一個開始，然後後續我們會有非常多細節需要討論？"],["黃次長謀信：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝次長，謝謝各位，謝謝。"],["周署長輝煌：謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","柯建銘","王義川","吳思瑤","黃國昌","王鴻薇","沈發惠","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00011"}}},{"id":"159125","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159125","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770ffc8388445bf03140e83d902c8d6dd6c2ff1cdb1affc83ff47676b3772217087c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:36:21 - 11:47:23","影片長度":"00:11:02","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:36:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:47:23+08:00","duration":662,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.23346875,"end":0.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.73971875,"end":2.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.257843750000001,"end":6.527843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.91159375,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.02971875,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.025343750000001,"end":9.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.04221875,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.93221875,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.24846875,"end":13.699718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.98659375,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.09971875,"end":22.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.43284375,"end":24.145343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.99346875,"end":24.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.989093750000002,"end":25.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.57971875,"end":27.047843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.23346875,"end":37.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.20659375,"end":37.830968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.67909375,"end":43.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.88096875,"end":42.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.21409375,"end":47.095343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.196593750000005,"end":66.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.828468750000006,"end":53.845343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.03096875,"end":54.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.10909375,"end":67.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.53096875,"end":82.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.08971875,"end":85.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.40159375,"end":85.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.41846875,"end":86.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.63346875,"end":90.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.05471875,"end":94.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.96971875000001,"end":94.98659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.08784375,"end":105.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.85409375,"end":107.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.94659375,"end":133.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.60909375,"end":134.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.96346875,"end":142.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.37596875,"end":142.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.37159375000002,"end":156.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.09534375,"end":155.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.76596875,"end":178.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.97034375,"end":172.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.49346875,"end":173.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.75909375,"end":180.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.93971875,"end":179.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.10409375,"end":186.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.60909375,"end":189.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.16596875000002,"end":189.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.97596875000002,"end":190.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.39784375000002,"end":190.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.53284375,"end":190.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.60034375,"end":190.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.61721875,"end":190.87034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.66784375,"end":193.28346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.62096875,"end":196.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.83596875,"end":197.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.99159375000002,"end":209.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.19346875000002,"end":202.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.14159375000003,"end":211.82909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.23409375,"end":217.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.73159375,"end":215.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.75221875000003,"end":239.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.59096875,"end":223.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.99971875000003,"end":227.01659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.13471875000002,"end":227.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.02721875,"end":241.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.63034375,"end":242.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.60909375000003,"end":242.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.16596875000002,"end":253.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.03784375,"end":253.15596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.15596875000003,"end":253.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.74221875,"end":266.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.34034375000005,"end":261.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.45346875,"end":277.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.01409375000003,"end":270.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.76409375000003,"end":277.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.19846875,"end":302.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.29034375000003,"end":284.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.70721875000004,"end":290.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.24221875,"end":295.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.32659375000003,"end":295.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.47846875000005,"end":295.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.35534375000003,"end":300.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.07221875000005,"end":304.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.91159375,"end":305.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.44721875000005,"end":306.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.24034375,"end":308.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.07971875000004,"end":323.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.09971875,"end":316.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.98034375000003,"end":330.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.22409375,"end":341.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.76784375,"end":333.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.08846875,"end":334.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.56409375000004,"end":341.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.05346875000004,"end":344.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.49596875000003,"end":364.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.24409375000005,"end":364.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.27784375000005,"end":364.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.51409375000003,"end":366.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.13409375000003,"end":366.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.15096875,"end":366.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.25221875,"end":372.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.33659375,"end":366.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.15909375,"end":370.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.09096875,"end":379.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.06971875000005,"end":373.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.14096875,"end":376.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.87034375,"end":406.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.89534375000005,"end":382.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.22409375,"end":384.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.34221875000003,"end":384.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.21784375000004,"end":397.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.03534375000004,"end":404.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.20409375,"end":404.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.70159375000003,"end":415.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.64534375000005,"end":416.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.67909375000005,"end":415.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.05034375,"end":421.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.09159375,"end":424.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.87596875,"end":437.54909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.68409375000005,"end":450.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.61909375000005,"end":449.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.30659375000005,"end":450.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.32346875,"end":450.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.34034375000005,"end":452.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.04034375000003,"end":457.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.22534375000004,"end":462.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.38471875000005,"end":463.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.02596875,"end":465.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.67971875,"end":475.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.04096875000005,"end":479.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.92221875,"end":498.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.45659375,"end":489.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.70096875,"end":492.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.69221875000005,"end":493.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.48471875,"end":498.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.83909375,"end":506.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.27346875,"end":501.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.62346875000003,"end":501.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.26409375000003,"end":506.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.43284375,"end":508.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.67721875,"end":509.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.28471875,"end":513.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.9253437500001,"end":516.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.2709687500001,"end":516.4734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.4734687499999,"end":516.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.5747187500001,"end":517.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.62096875,"end":521.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.35909375,"end":531.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.7890937500001,"end":521.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.42596875,"end":524.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.8603437500001,"end":525.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.42471875,"end":531.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.6103437500001,"end":570.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.7022187499999,"end":564.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.01409375,"end":580.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.4978437500001,"end":577.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.1515937500001,"end":579.1809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.82221875,"end":581.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.05409375,"end":585.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.5053437500001,"end":582.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.0747187500001,"end":586.1840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.1840937500001,"end":590.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.8247187500001,"end":600.5447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.2165937500001,"end":594.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.4053437499999,"end":608.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.76284375,"end":612.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.6147187500001,"end":613.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.7747187500001,"end":624.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.6047187500001,"end":621.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.0515937499999,"end":626.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.35534375,"end":624.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.8403437500001,"end":629.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.00034375,"end":631.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.72159375,"end":629.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.4428437500001,"end":634.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.1597187500001,"end":650.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.36221875,"end":639.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.03096875,"end":651.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.6128437500001,"end":654.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.36346875,"end":655.4897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.5403437500001,"end":657.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.0634687500001,"end":658.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.97034375,"end":661.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.13471875,"end":660.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.4128437500001,"end":661.6997187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.77,"end":1.211,"text":"謝謝主席那我們請楊總裁"},{"start":20.808,"end":40.999,"text":"總裁今天被尋一個早上其實也辛苦了謝謝你那個總裁去年的這個3月的時候其實我們在這邊也質詢過總裁那我覺得這個時間好像有倒流到這個去年這個時光去年的3月的這個李建勢央行的李建勢會議記者會上"},{"start":43.28,"end":65.717,"text":"然後這個總裁就說當時升息半碼主要是為了抑制就講去年4月電價上漲引發的國內通膨的預期的心理那當然這個升息半碼會讓市場覺得有點surprise但是這是合理的一個決定那我記得到時候大家在質詢的時候外界有給總裁一個封號叫做Mr."},{"start":65.717,"end":66.597,"text":"Surprise"},{"start":67.738,"end":90.575,"text":"那我覺得說這是去年三月的事情怎麼到了今年三月份我們在討論這個事情好像有這個既視感好像跟去年的這個時候也差不多第一個國內今年的一二月呢消費者物價指數CPI呢平均年增率超過百分之二的這個通貨警戒線第二個呢海鐵呢恐怕會調漲的部分的費用那加上呢"},{"start":91.756,"end":118.058,"text":"這個台電的兩千億的預算被債務局砍掉了所以電價也面臨調漲的壓力所以後續物價有可能有上漲的一些壓力第三個就是說美國川普總統上任那會加增關稅然後聯準會的貨幣政策有可能會造成CPI的指數無法回落到1.5%以下所以本席再請教總裁"},{"start":119.119,"end":132.955,"text":"那這個外界在預期說下個禮拜的這個央行的禮監事會之後呢是否會採取這個預防性的申請因為好像去年的這個情況跟現在的這個情況好像也差不多"},{"start":136.899,"end":156.059,"text":"總裁你不覺得好像我去年講的這些東西跟今年的遇到的狀況好像有點類似我覺得委員掌握我們整個的邏輯跟說法還有整個經濟金融的情況掌握得非常好"},{"start":156.92,"end":181.393,"text":"那我想第一個我們還是由委員我們的理事來決定當然了來決定那當然就是說委員在講就是說那個去年的情況跟今年的情況好像是有一點類似對啊你那時候就是怕說會有預期性的這個通膨的心理嘛所以就升息了半碼而且去年這個情況跟今天情況好像差不多啊不過我想我們3月20號就會揭曉"},{"start":188.866,"end":216.953,"text":"那我請教總裁現在這個情況跟去年的情況有沒有有點類似是有一點類似有點類似那這檔案好像呼之欲出不過也就是說我們要想就是說雖然就是說情況有一點類似不過第一個我們也會考慮到就是說我們的雖然就是說這個通膨會上修但是雖然是在2%左右那我們要不要很擔心這個是第一個"},{"start":217.873,"end":242.142,"text":"第二個,我們長期還是認為我們的通膨還是有下來的一個趨勢那這個我們是不是也要考量第二個,我們也會考量到現在的不確定性不管是對通膨的不確定性或是對經濟的不確定性我們必須要更關心它"},{"start":243.288,"end":253.563,"text":"那其實我聽總裁這樣講如果真的下禮拜開會有升息辦碼我覺得大概也沒有這麼驚喜啦是不是"},{"start":254.913,"end":277.04,"text":"不過就是說因為在這邊因為是理事共同來討論的我在這邊好像也不便得說那剛才總裁有提到很多次提到這個不確定性我剛才在答覆其他的立委的時候也提到這個有關川普總統上台之後那其實去年的11月我也問過"},{"start":278.68,"end":305.399,"text":"這個總裁那時候川普當選那我就問總裁我就說這個川普當選的心情會怎麼樣那總裁那時候的回答是說呢這個政策是不容易預測那就是有不確定性那所以呢這個市場金融市場如果有這個不確定性呢就是一個很大的問題那我看這個總裁今天的報告也很多次出現這個不確定性那經過了這一個半年再來看那這個不確定性還是很高嗎"},{"start":307.384,"end":323.356,"text":"事實上呢所以我們在這邊第六頁這邊有講到就是說那個時候呢都對川普的交易呢非常樂觀所以你看碰碰碰他美國的這些的數據包括股市啦美元啦還有那個公債的利率啊都是"},{"start":324.116,"end":341.418,"text":"表達非常對美國非常的樂觀不過最近我想委員知道他現在的這個樂觀的情緒是慢慢在correction但是他的correction我個人解讀只是說是恢復到9月以前的"},{"start":342.399,"end":351.569,"text":"所以也沒有特別的壞所以現在市場有一股認為美國好像現在要進入衰退期事實上這是一個對於樂觀的預期現在是一個correction也就是現在是cool down的時候"},{"start":364.583,"end":379.484,"text":"先是一個過渡過渡其實跟去年九月其實預期是差不多當時的預期會比較高所以這個就是說人類的心理投資人的一個心理就是這樣市場的心理就是這樣"},{"start":380.205,"end":406.177,"text":"那我請教一下台積電的問題我剛剛很多委員都提到那其實台積電加碼投資美國一千億美元那台積電的董事長魏哲嘉其實還有提到他說先進的研發中心都是在台灣不論是兩奈米1.6奈米1.4奈米甚至一奈米都是在台灣是真正的研發中心那台積電在美國的研發中心"},{"start":407.037,"end":420.718,"text":"規模大概是1000人那他主要是做什麼呢生產線的製程優化跟我們剛才提到的那個所謂的這個真正研發中心是不一樣的那美國台商的會長韓如柏呢他這兩天呢有一個"},{"start":422.24,"end":442.175,"text":"演講川普關稅台灣基金片那他有提到說呢川普總統一直在強調半導體產業對美國未來的重要性那中國大陸也知道這個弱點而且試圖利用它最近就指控中國指控台灣把台積電當作伴手禮送給他人"},{"start":443.536,"end":458.253,"text":"山洞本來就已經緊張了國內情勢這不是只有共產黨在講我看很多在野黨在講台積電會變成美積電那我再請教一下因為也有一些學者提到說這個台積電加碼投資一千億會造成衝擊到台灣的會市那請教一下會有這個衝擊嗎"},{"start":464.205,"end":473.112,"text":"所以我剛剛事實上我們外匯局也有去請教過台積電它的財務處基本上就我所了解的"},{"start":481.019,"end":508.454,"text":"對匯市呢因為他就是說要多增加一千億的投資一千億的投資剛剛我同仁也在講就是說事實上也不是一次到位嘛對因為他是四年嘛也就是說一年是兩百五十億啦一年如果說就用這樣評論但是台積電很會賺錢而且他賺的都是外幣都是美元所以呢我剛剛我同仁也有去請教他他們一年的營收是將近一千億美元"},{"start":509.495,"end":527.854,"text":"所以說你看看它的營收那麼的龐大所以對外市場我覺得應該是我認為是不會有影響我想央行總裁講話這個份量就夠因為外界有一些人說將台積電去投資會衝擊到台灣的會市"},{"start":532.278,"end":544.836,"text":"會是如果說以我們現在所掌握的數據還有包括他們告訴我們的基本上也就是說像他1000例而且你看他的1000例事實上他也可以在美國他也可以在美國籌資對"},{"start":546.658,"end":566.49,"text":"他也可以在那邊籌資還有包括他本身的營收又那麼龐大所以我總覺得對我們外市場的一個不過我也會跟委員報告啦事實上我們每天對於我們的廠商的一個會市這個結構結束我們都會密切的注意他"},{"start":567.13,"end":593.892,"text":"有啦 我也看到你們報告有寫我們每天每天都是注意這個去年的主會主要是這個賣匯主要是這個主匯啦就是這個主貶啦怕這個新台幣貶太多啦效果也還不錯啦相對其他的這個亞洲國家來講剩下一點時間我請教總裁就是說這個賴總統提到說這個五百元的紙鈔有可能會做改版"},{"start":594.733,"end":623.384,"text":"那甚至會做這一個紀念幣那我問一下這個目前有在做這個籌備的工作嗎我們對於就是說這個對於這個就是說我們的這個就是說我們我們的這一次那我先講那個紙擦好了對我們不是我們有在規劃就是說用紀念幣或紀念鈔的一個方式紀念幣特別是紀念幣這個部分我們要用這樣來"},{"start":624.324,"end":641.603,"text":"紀念碑大概時程是到哪時候?我們現在就還正在規劃紫超改版有想過嗎?紀念超現在是沒有所以目前就朝著紀念碑的方式你們要掌握一下時程"},{"start":644.046,"end":658.899,"text":"這個十二強是去年11月的事情那你們至少今年要把它做出來啊不然明年又變經典賽了啊我們盡量啦有沒有辦法今年做出來這十二強的經典賽我們也是希望啦我們也是希望朝這個目標來做好不好對對對好OK好謝謝謝謝總裁謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":971,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時36分）謝謝主席，我們請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝召委跟委員。"],["李委員坤城：總裁好，今天備詢一個早上，其實也辛苦了。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝你，謝謝你。"],["李委員坤城：總裁，去年3月，其實我們在這邊也質詢過總裁，我覺得時間好像有倒流到去年這個時光，去年3月央行理監事會議記者會上，總裁就說當時升息半碼主要是為了抑制去年4月電價上漲引發國內通膨的預期心理。那當然升級半碼會讓市場覺得有點surprise，但是這是合理的一個決定。我記得當時大家在質詢的時候，外界有給總裁一個封號，叫做Mr. Surprise，我覺得，這是去年3月的事情，怎麼到了今年3月份，我們在討論這個事情，好像有既視感，好像跟去年的這個時候也差不多。","第一個，國內今年1、2月消費者物價指數（CPI）平均年增率超過2%的通膨警戒線。第二個，臺鐵恐怕會調漲部分費用，加上台電的2,000億預算被在野黨砍掉了，電價也面臨了調漲的壓力，所以後續物價有可能有上漲的壓力。第三個，美國川普總統上任，會加徵關稅，然後聯準會的貨幣政策，有可能會造成CPI指數無法回落到1.5%以下。所以本席再請教總裁，外界預期下禮拜央行理監事會議之後是否會採取預防性升息，因為去年的情況跟現在的情況好像也差不多，總裁有沒有覺得好像我去年講的這些東西跟今年遇到的狀況好像有點類似？"],["楊總裁金龍：我覺得委員掌握我們的整個邏輯跟說法，還有整個經濟金融的情況，掌握得非常好。我想，第一個，我們還是由我們的理事來決定。"],["李委員坤城：當然啦。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員講去年的情況跟今年的情況好像是有一點類似……"],["李委員坤城：對啊。你那時候就是怕會有通膨的預期心理，所以就升息了半碼，我覺得去年的情況跟今年這個情況好像差不多。"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我想3月20日就會揭曉。"],["李委員坤城：好，那我請教總裁，現在這個情況跟去年的情況有沒有有點類似？"],["楊總裁金龍：是有一點類似。"],["李委員坤城：有點類似，那這個答案好像呼之欲出啊。"],["楊總裁金龍：雖然情況有一點類似，不過第一個，我們也會考慮到，雖然通膨會上修在2%左右，那我們要不要很擔心？這個是第一個。第二個，如果長期我們認為我們的通膨還是有下來的趨勢，那我們是不是也要考量？這個是第二個。第三個，我們也會考量到現在的不確定性，不管是對通膨的不確定性，或是對經濟的不確定性，我們必須要更關心它。"],["李委員坤城：好，我聽總裁這樣講，如果真的下禮拜開會有升息半碼，我覺得大概也沒有這麼surprise，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過，因為是理事共同來討論的，我在這邊好像也不便多說。"],["李委員坤城：好。剛剛總裁很多次提到不確定性，在答復其他立委的時候也提到，有關川普總統上台之後，其實去年11月我也問過總裁，那時候川普當選，我就問總裁，說川普當選，總裁的心情會怎麼樣，總裁那時候的回答是說，政策是不容預測，那就是有不確定性……"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員坤城：金融市場如果有不確定性，就是一個很大的問題……"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["李委員坤城：那我看總裁今天的報告也很多次出現「不確定性」，經過了半年再來看，這個不確定性還是很高嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們在報告第6頁有講到，那個時候都對川普的交易非常樂觀，所以你看美國的這些數據，包括股市、美元、公債的利率，都是表達對美國非常樂觀，不過最近我想委員也知道，現在這個樂觀的情緒是慢慢在correction，但是這個correction，我個人解讀，只是回復到9月以前，也沒有說是特別的壞，所以現在市場有一些人認為美國好像現在要進入衰退期，事實上這是對於樂觀的預期的，現在是一個correction，也就是現在是cool down的時候……"],["李委員坤城：cool down，其實跟去年9月預估是差不多啦，當時的預期會比較高。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，所以這個就是人類的心理，投資人的心理就是這樣子，市場的心理就是這樣子。"],["李委員坤城：好。那我請教一下台積電的問題，剛剛很多委員都提到。台積電加碼投資美國1,000億美元，台積電董事長魏哲家其實有提到，最先進的研發中心都是在臺灣，不論是2奈米、1.6奈米、1.4奈米，甚至1奈米，都是在臺灣，是真正的研發中心，那台積電在美國的研發中心，規模大概是1,000人，主要是做什麼呢？生產線的製程優化，跟我們剛剛提到的真正研發中心是不一樣的……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員坤城：美國臺商會長韓儒伯這兩天有一個演講，以「川普、關稅、臺灣及晶片」為題，他有提到，川普總統一直在強調半導體產業對美國未來的重要性，中國大陸也知道這個弱點，而且試圖利用它，最近中國就指控臺灣把台積電當作伴手禮送給他人，煽動本來就已經緊張的國內情勢，這不是只有共產黨在講，我看很多在野黨也在講，說台積電會變成美積電。那我再請教一下，有一些學者提到，台積電加碼投資1,000億，會衝擊到臺灣的匯市，請教一下，會有這個衝擊嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上我們外匯局也有去請教過台積電的財務處，基本上，就我所了解的，台積電說要多增加1,000億的投資，剛剛我的同仁也在講，事實上……"],["李委員坤城：也不是一次到位嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，因為是分四年投資，也就是一年是250億，如果最後用這樣平均，但是台積電很會賺錢，而且賺的都是外幣，都是美元，所以剛剛我的同仁也有去請教他們，他們一年的營收是將近1,000億美元，你看看，它的營收那麼的龐大，所以對外匯市場的衝擊，我認為是不會的。"],["李委員坤城：不會有影響嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會有影響。"],["李委員坤城：我想央行總裁講話這個份量就夠，因為外界有一些人說，台積電去投資會衝擊到臺灣的匯市……"],["楊總裁金龍：如果以我們現在所掌握的數據，還有包括他們告訴我們的，基本上，台積電在美國投資1,000億，它也可以在美國籌資，還有包括它本身的營收又那麼龐大，所以我總覺得對我們外匯市場的衝擊沒有那麼大。不過我也會跟委員報告，事實上，我們每天對於我們廠商的匯市結購、結售都會密切注意，……"],["李委員坤城：有啦，我也看到你們報告有寫。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們每天每天都是注意這個。"],["李委員坤城：去年主要是阻貶，怕新臺幣貶太多。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員坤城：效果也還不錯啦，相對其他的亞洲國家來講。","剩下一點時間，我請教總裁，賴總統有提到500元的紙鈔有可能會改版，甚至會做紀念幣，那我問一下，目前有在做籌備的工作嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們對於這個……"],["李委員坤城：我先講紙鈔好了。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們有在規劃用紀念幣或紀念鈔的方式，特別是紀念幣，這個部分我們要用這樣的來表達。"],["李委員坤城：那紀念幣的時程大概是到哪時候？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們現在還正在規劃，還要聽聽大家……"],["李委員坤城：紙鈔改版有想過嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：紀念鈔現在是沒有。"],["李委員坤城：已經沒有？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以目前就朝著紀念幣的方式？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員坤城：你們要掌握一下時程啊。12強是去年11月的事情，那你們至少今年要把它做出來啊……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們儘量……"],["李委員坤城：不然明年又變經典賽了啊。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們儘量啦，我們儘量。"],["李委員坤城：有沒有辦法今年把12強的紀念幣做出來？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們是希望啦。我們也是希望啦。"],["李委員坤城：你們也是希望，朝這個目標來做，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，對。"],["李委員坤城：好。OK。謝謝。謝謝總裁。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李委員的質詢。","下一位請王世堅委員質詢。","向委員會報告，我們現在開始發便當，各位要在這裡食用的話，是可以的。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-2","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","黃珊珊","林思銘","李坤城","王世堅","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","邱志偉","陳冠廷","李柏毅"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00004"}}},{"id":"159124","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159124","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f0d0bda0b582f74156b0a9b5bba3c53abff1cdb1affc83ff474881cda51d8a84a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:05:04 - 11:14:56","影片長度":"00:09:52","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國機國造交機進度及勇鷹高教機失事後檢修情況」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:05:04+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:14:56+08:00","duration":592,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-3-35-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":3.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.81909375,"end":7.101593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.51096875,"end":6.679718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.793468750000001,"end":10.054718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.969718750000002,"end":18.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.86346875,"end":20.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.65221875,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.407218750000002,"end":23.453468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.33096875,"end":26.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.980343750000003,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.59159375,"end":33.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.79346875,"end":38.337218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.89409375,"end":39.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.362218750000004,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.48846875,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.72409375,"end":49.407218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.11596875,"end":52.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.828468750000006,"end":54.992843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.617218750000006,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.01221875,"end":67.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.02034375000001,"end":69.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.87659375,"end":70.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.56409375,"end":73.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.74096875000001,"end":74.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.25971875,"end":76.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.77409375,"end":84.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.72659375,"end":85.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.21159375,"end":94.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.29471875,"end":95.83034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.42096875,"end":103.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.96409375,"end":104.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.44471875,"end":109.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.07284375,"end":113.51534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.85284375,"end":120.06284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.53534375000001,"end":123.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.46721875,"end":125.78346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.13784375,"end":127.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.43284375000002,"end":129.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.68159375000002,"end":132.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.02284375000002,"end":136.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.97159375,"end":146.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.29909375,"end":148.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.98659375,"end":157.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.99784375000002,"end":159.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.51221875000002,"end":161.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.86221875,"end":163.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.37659375,"end":167.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.34221875,"end":169.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.68784375,"end":172.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.37096875,"end":173.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.52284375000002,"end":173.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.69159375,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.21034375000002,"end":176.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.33221875,"end":184.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.23846875,"end":187.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.04409375,"end":187.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.68096875,"end":187.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.69784375,"end":187.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.84971875000002,"end":187.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.86659375000002,"end":187.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.88346875000002,"end":187.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.90034375000002,"end":189.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.98471875,"end":188.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.39346875,"end":193.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.89096875,"end":196.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.69221875000002,"end":198.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.02096875,"end":200.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.94034375,"end":202.98659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.77971875,"end":206.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.85096875000002,"end":224.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.03784375,"end":226.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.43846875000003,"end":231.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.50534375,"end":232.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.17596875,"end":234.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.21784375000001,"end":235.87596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.98971875,"end":243.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.22909375,"end":246.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.15721875000003,"end":250.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.81909375,"end":249.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.71346875,"end":251.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.70909375000002,"end":251.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.21534375000002,"end":251.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.23221875000002,"end":251.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.36721875,"end":251.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.97471875000002,"end":252.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.05909375000002,"end":252.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.09284375000001,"end":252.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.26159375,"end":252.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.17284375000003,"end":257.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.90221875000003,"end":269.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.32221875,"end":277.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.45596875,"end":278.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.70471875000004,"end":281.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.52284375,"end":285.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.51784375,"end":287.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.62721875,"end":289.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.48784375,"end":289.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.01096875,"end":291.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.08659375,"end":298.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.04784375,"end":297.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.14471875000004,"end":299.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.41034375000004,"end":300.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.05159375,"end":304.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.92846875000004,"end":306.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.05471875,"end":309.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.46784375000004,"end":310.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.77971875000003,"end":313.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.15909375,"end":315.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.06596875,"end":316.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.23034375000003,"end":319.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.55471875,"end":323.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.46971875,"end":325.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.58784375000005,"end":330.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.37596875,"end":331.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.84846875,"end":330.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.55284375,"end":334.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.64534375,"end":336.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.34471875,"end":345.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.02346875,"end":347.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.62221875,"end":347.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.70659375,"end":356.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.75159375000004,"end":358.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.63721875000005,"end":360.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.28221875,"end":365.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.94846875,"end":365.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.98221875,"end":367.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.19284375,"end":376.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.15346875,"end":381.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.00096875,"end":381.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.33846875,"end":384.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.38909375000003,"end":382.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.37596875,"end":384.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.47721875,"end":397.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.65659375,"end":400.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.96409375,"end":406.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.98409375,"end":408.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.00096875,"end":410.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.83596875,"end":413.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.45159375000003,"end":418.17659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.83471875000004,"end":419.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.91034375000004,"end":421.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.10846875000004,"end":425.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.48346875000004,"end":426.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.85034375000004,"end":428.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.68096875000003,"end":434.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.54096875000005,"end":438.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.86534375,"end":442.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.39221875000004,"end":443.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.29909375000005,"end":445.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.58159375,"end":446.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.77534375000005,"end":457.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.51221875000005,"end":470.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.19784375,"end":480.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.46346875,"end":472.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.23096875000005,"end":477.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.41159375,"end":482.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.40721875,"end":481.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.45346875,"end":483.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.29721875,"end":485.15346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.03096875000006,"end":486.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.95471875000004,"end":489.86159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.95034375000006,"end":489.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.38471875000005,"end":493.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.18159375000005,"end":495.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.24909375000004,"end":500.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.48846875000004,"end":502.48409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.71159375,"end":509.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.30971875000006,"end":516.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.8953437499999,"end":523.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.59534375,"end":521.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.7465937500001,"end":529.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.7878437500001,"end":530.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.0490937500001,"end":539.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.1784687500001,"end":543.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.8784687500001,"end":545.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.6672187500001,"end":549.9365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.81409375,"end":553.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.4422187499999,"end":555.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.5009687500001,"end":557.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.98596875,"end":561.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.81659375,"end":564.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.0359687499999,"end":562.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.32659375,"end":567.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.6003437500001,"end":571.1147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.90346875,"end":579.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.53534375,"end":580.8515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.6953437500001,"end":582.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.3828437500001,"end":589.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.39034375,"end":589.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.4072187500001,"end":590.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.92596875,"end":591.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.19596875,"end":591.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.2803437499999,"end":591.9722187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":25.666,"text":"那現在按照規定,國防部應該是由誰代表巡檔?是由...中副部長中副部長是不是?對OK,好來請黃委員好副部長好喔台灣民眾黨向來的立場我們絕對支持給我們的國軍弟兄最好的資源我們要給他們最好的設備"},{"start":27.045,"end":52.417,"text":"我們要給他們可以阻止敵人來犯的武器才可以捍衛台灣的國家安全我相信這不僅僅是台灣民眾黨的立場而且是全民的共識但是我對於吸納稅人的血拿國家的錢胡搞瞎搞置國軍弟兄的安危於不顧"},{"start":53.874,"end":76.757,"text":"的不肖廠商跟官商勾結我是深惡痛絕這種人一定要嚴查嚴辦到底副部長贊不贊成贊成所以我從去年開始我就一直在追一堆垃圾廠商從中國進口劣質的原料"},{"start":77.99,"end":103.095,"text":"搞那種抗彈布防彈纖維防彈背心根本沒有辦法維護本國我們所有基層士兵的安全這件事我為什麼一而再再而三的追啊因為這些廠商從我的觀點來講基本上就是垃圾就是遏制的廠商要辦到底啊副部長贊不贊成是贊成嗎贊成贊成嘛但有嗎有嗎"},{"start":106.736,"end":131.479,"text":"我在追查的時候我發現很奇怪這一些從中國進口劣質的原料 致國家安全於不顧致我們基層士兵的安危於不顧的垃圾廠商結果竟然連停權都沒有辦法做所以我就開始追啊 怎麼會有這麼離譜的事情結果有一個媒體叫靖州刊 他說"},{"start":133.289,"end":159.556,"text":"這個是因為依照工程會的調解,所以沒有看採政府採購公報依照工程會的調解,所以沒有辦庭權把責任推給我們政府機關,這個事情大條因為包括辦這個調解的工程會,包括參與調解的國防部竟然依照調解的內容,縱放這種垃圾廠商這天大地大的事情"},{"start":160.838,"end":189.679,"text":"結果呢 結果全部都是假訊息全部都是假訊息以後 來請問一下我們的國防部啊現在做了什麼事情這種假訊息可以不用追究來請副部長對不起我沒有請你代答有關委員剛剛講的就是我們在111年10月的12號我講過的東西不用複述啦現在我的問題很簡單嘛你們國防部回函給我嘛"},{"start":191.688,"end":200.374,"text":"國防部回函給我說什麼說這個陳述非屬事實嘛消息來源不是來本部嘛哇 那事情嚴重喔"},{"start":201.991,"end":223.502,"text":"一個媒體喔公開的散播假訊息啊污蔑國防部啊還捏造是國防部的回應啊這知識體大沒有得到國防部的授權說這是國防部的回應結果散播的還是假訊息啊嚴重的國安問題啊副部長這件事情可以不追究嗎來請教"},{"start":227.472,"end":252.296,"text":"不要迴避問題,要不要追究?該不該追究?有沒有追究?說清楚後續我們會...後續?你們什麼時候發現是假訊息?你們去年10月30號就發現是假訊息啊?到現在做了什麼處理?除了回函給我做了什麼處理?第一個部分是我們已經有發布新聞稿來正式的澄清然後散播假訊息的人法律責任要不要追究?"},{"start":253.22,"end":268.532,"text":"那第二個部分是已經通知廠商來解約,並且列入口號一個一個來啦,不要混淆問題啊剛我的問題清楚明瞭嘛這種散播假訊息的媒體捏造國防部的回應啊,責任要不要追究"},{"start":269.488,"end":290.76,"text":"要還是不要還是從國防部的立場沒關係啦被人家散播假訊息我國防部也是摸摸鼻子就算了因為被因為散播假訊息啊的那個媒體綠營後台很硬我國防部也得罪不起是這樣嗎來請副部長說清楚齁要不要追究責任"},{"start":292.148,"end":319.167,"text":"要不要因為對於假訊息的部分我們大部分都是發布新聞稿來做一個這樣就算了喔哇 那你們國防部對付捏造國防部訊息的軟趴趴這很嚴重耶這是國防部向來的立場嗎這個立場對嗎散播假訊息要不要追究還是看情況如果利盈後台很硬就不追究"},{"start":320.612,"end":335.992,"text":"否則的話才追究這是國防部的立場嗎來 說清楚目前對任何的爭議跟假訊息不會有任何政黨的立場好 所以要不要追究還是不追究 算了是這樣嗎 要不要追究"},{"start":341.36,"end":366.716,"text":"因為對於正義的訊息我們目前是以新聞稿的方式來對嘛 所以我說國防部軟趴趴嘛那你的立場今天很嚴重喔以後任何人代表我們的國防部散播假訊息結果國防部唯一的處置就是發布新聞稿副部長你覺得這個態度對嗎要不要重新檢討後續我們跟法律師做個研究之後啊 需要多久"},{"start":368.22,"end":376.031,"text":"要研究多久去年10月30號現在已經3月了啦軟趴趴昏睡沉睡到現在了啦還要再睡多久"},{"start":377.239,"end":406.508,"text":"需要跟法律師研究多久 這問題很困難嗎我們兩週之內跟委員做個說明兩週之內 不用跟我回覆啊 所有回覆我是跟所有外交國防委員會的委員回覆啊跟台灣社會說明啊我們的國防部啊 在面對啊這種垃圾假訊息的時候啊 的態度是什麼是軟趴趴嗎還是我們散播假訊息的要關三天要不要處理對假訊息我們一定會馬上的來做澄清跟說明來 第二個"},{"start":408.035,"end":434.229,"text":"我上次追聯合再生聯合再生在我們的國防要塞專會嚴重影響有國安疑慮的資通訊產品結果什麼結果我追了半天你們拖了半天終於解約了來問一下東西拆完了沒有東西拆完了沒有終止契約以後終止契約很簡單嘛"},{"start":435.598,"end":444.986,"text":"你佔用我們國防要塞的地的東西全部給我拆得乾乾淨淨土土地還過來現在拆的進度如何?現在都在法院"},{"start":447.81,"end":470.075,"text":"跟委員報告上次去年委員所指導的我們都已經依規定都已經解除他的企業目前拆除的部分該廠商都有在行政訴訟現在都在法院審理中我們一定會依照這個法律相關規定一定要嚴格來執行以上報告你報告錯了啦他不可能提行政訴訟"},{"start":471.275,"end":500.399,"text":"有 現在都是 他提的是行政訴訟嗎這是永陽公司跟那個企業關係的訴訟他們都提出企業關係的訴訟我老實跟你講 那個叫民事訴訟對 民事訴訟四個假處分法院都准了嗎只有准了一個 三個還在訴訟中沒有 只有准一個 其他三個你為什麼不猜只有一個定暫時狀態的處分我知道嘛其他三個都沒有定暫時狀態的處分可以不猜喔"},{"start":501.55,"end":530.66,"text":"可以不用猜喔你們國防部到底是在怎麼保護軍事要塞的啊軟趴趴成這個樣子啊一個拿到定戰時狀態的處分我知道所以我問你其他三個為什麼不用猜現在是在訴訟中公司有提出來在民事訴訟中不要講這種模擬兩可的東西啦他有申請定戰時狀態的處分法院還沒准嘛法院還沒准他該不該猜當然該猜嘛"},{"start":532.113,"end":555.271,"text":"如果法院還沒有准他都可以不用猜那他何必去申請定戰時狀態的處分那個定戰時狀態的處分有什麼意義國防部加油一點好不好硬起來好不好還是因為這個聯合再生有綠營的背景軟趴趴一模一樣國防部看到聯合再生就要跪下去硬起來好不好"},{"start":556.547,"end":581.897,"text":"可以嗎?副部長跟委員報告沒有任何政黨的一個背景的理智反對對啊但是你們做出來哩哩啦啦啦人民看不懂我也看不懂啊我們都要保護台灣的國家安全啊這種廠商做這麼惡質的事情結果國防部軟趴趴成這個樣子回去檢討需要多久?一樣兩個禮拜好不好?可以嗎?"},{"start":583.407,"end":591.529,"text":"我們兩個禮拜之後把辦理的情形跟委員做個說明後續我們還是要依法來辦理當然要依法來辦理嘛好 時間到"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時5分）謝謝主席，因為部長已經請假離開了，現在按照規定，國防部應該是由誰代表詢答？"],["主席：鍾副部長。"],["黃委員國昌：好，請副部長。"],["鍾副部長樹明：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：副部長好。我們台灣民眾黨向來的立場是絕對支持給我們國軍弟兄最好的資源，我們要給他們最好的設備，我們要給他們可以阻止敵人來犯的武器，才可以捍衛臺灣的國家安全，我相信這不僅僅是台灣民眾黨的立場，而且是全民的共識，但是我對於吸納稅人的血、拿國家的錢胡搞瞎搞，置國軍弟兄的安危於不顧的不肖廠商跟官商勾結，我是深惡痛絕！這種人一定要嚴查嚴辦到底，副部長贊不贊成？"],["鍾副部長樹明：贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：好，所以我從去年開始就一直在追，一堆垃圾廠商從中國進口劣質原料，搞那種抗彈布、防彈纖維、防彈背心，根本沒有辦法維護我們所有基層士兵的安全，這件事我為什麼一而再、再而三的追？因為這些廠商從我的觀點來講，基本上就是垃圾！就是惡質的廠商，要辦到底。副部長贊不贊成？"],["鍾副部長樹明：是。"],["黃委員國昌：贊成嗎？"],["鍾副部長樹明：贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：贊成嘛，但有嗎？有嗎？我在追查的時候發現很奇怪，這一些從中國進口劣質原料、置國家安全於不顧、置我們基層士兵安危於不顧的垃圾廠商，竟然連停權都沒有辦法做，所以我就開始追怎麼會有這麼離譜的事情啊，結果有一個媒體叫鏡週刊，說這是因為依照工程會的調解，所以沒有刊載政府採購公報，依照工程會的調解，所以沒有辦停權。哇！把責任推給我們政府機關，這個事情大條了，因為包括辦這個調解的工程會，包括參與調解的國防部，竟然依照調解的內容縱放這種垃圾廠商，這是天大地大的事情啊！結果全部都是假訊息。請問一下國防部，現在做了什麼事情？這種假訊息可以不用追究嗎？來！請副部長，對不起，我沒有請別人代答。"],["鍾副部長樹明：有關委員剛剛講的，就是我們在111年10月12號……"],["黃委員國昌：我講過的東西不用複述啦，現在我的問題很簡單，你們國防部回函給我說這個陳述非屬事實，消息來源不是本部，那事情嚴重了！一個媒體公開的散播假訊息，誣衊國防部，還捏造是國防部的回應，茲事體大，沒有得到國防部的授權，卻說這是國防部的回應，散播的還是假訊息，這是嚴重的國安問題啊！副部長，這件事情可以不追究嗎？來！請教，不要迴避問題，要不要追究？該不該追究？有沒有追究？說清楚！"],["鍾副部長樹明：後續我們會……"],["黃委員國昌：後續？你們什麼時候發現是假訊息？你們去年10月30號就發現是假訊息，到現在做了什麼處理？除了回函給我以外，做了什麼處理？"],["鍾副部長樹明：第一個部分是我們已經有發布新聞稿來正式澄清。"],["黃委員國昌：是，然後散播假訊息的人法律責任要不要追究？"],["鍾副部長樹明：第二個部分是已經通知廠商來解約，並且列入……"],["黃委員國昌：等一下！等一下！一個一個來啦，不要混淆問題。剛剛我的問題清楚明瞭，這種散播假訊息的媒體，捏造國防部的回應，責任要不要追究？要還是不要？還是從國防部的立場來說，沒關係啦！被人家散播假訊息，國防部也是摸摸鼻子就算了，因為散播假訊息的媒體綠營後臺很硬，國防部也得罪不起，是這樣嗎？來！請副部長說清楚要不要追究責任？要不要？"],["鍾副部長樹明：因為對於假訊息的部分，我們大部分都是發布新聞稿來做澄清，就是爭議訊息的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：這樣就算了喔？哇！那你們國防部對付捏造國防部訊息的軟趴趴！這很嚴重欸！這是國防部向來的立場嗎？這個立場對嗎？散播假訊息要不要追究，還是看情況？如果綠營後臺很硬就不追究，否則的話才追究，這是國防部的立場嗎？來！說清楚喔。"],["鍾副部長樹明：目前對於任何的爭議跟假訊息，不會有任何政黨的立場。"],["黃委員國昌：好，所以要不要追究？還是不追究，算了？是這樣嗎？要不要追究？"],["鍾副部長樹明：因為對於爭議的訊息，我們目前是以新聞稿的方式來……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，所以我說國防部軟趴趴嘛。今天很嚴重喔，以後任何人代表國防部散播假訊息，結果國防部唯一的處置就是發布新聞稿，副部長，你覺得這個態度對嗎？要不要重新檢討？"],["鍾副部長樹明：後續我們跟法律司做個研究之後……"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？要研究多久？去年10月30號，現在已經3月了啦，軟趴趴，昏睡、沉睡到現在，還要再睡多久？需要跟法律司研究多久？這問題很困難嗎？"],["鍾副部長樹明：我們兩週之內跟委員說明。"],["黃委員國昌：不用跟我回復，跟所有外交及國防委員會的委員回復，跟臺灣社會說明啊。我們的國防部在面對這種垃圾假訊息的時候，態度是什麼，是軟趴趴嗎？還是散播假訊息的要關三天？要不要處理？"],["鍾副部長樹明：對假訊息我們一定會馬上的來做澄清跟說明。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，我上次追聯合再生，聯合再生在我們的國防要塞裝了會嚴重影響、有國安疑慮的資通訊產品，結果我追了半天，你們拖了半天，終於解約了。來！問一下，東西拆完了沒有？終止契約以後，終止契約很簡單嘛，占用我們國防要塞土地的，東西全部給我拆得乾乾淨淨，土地還回來，現在拆的進度如何？"],["鍾副部長樹明：我請軍備局說明。"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，去年委員所指導的，我們都已經依規定解除他的契約，目前拆除的部分，該廠商都提起行政訴訟，現在都在法院審理中，我們一定會依照法律相關規定來嚴格執行，以上報告。"],["黃委員國昌：你報告錯了啦，他不可能提行政訴訟。"],["林局長文祥：有，現在都是……"],["黃委員國昌：他提的是行政訴訟嗎？"],["林局長文祥：就是永梁公司跟那個……"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以他提的是行政訴訟？"],["林局長文祥：報告委員，他們都提出契約關係的訴訟。"],["黃委員國昌：我老實跟你講，那個叫民事訴訟。"],["林局長文祥：對，民事訴訟。"],["黃委員國昌：四個假處分法院都准了嗎？"],["林局長文祥：只有准了一個，三個還在訴訟中。"],["黃委員國昌：只准一個，其他三個你為什麼不拆？"],["林局長文祥：還在訴訟中。"],["黃委員國昌：只有一個定暫時狀態的處分，我知道嘛，其他三個都沒有定暫時狀態的處分，可以不拆喔？可以不用拆喔？你們國防部到底是怎麼保護軍事要塞的？軟趴趴成這個樣子啊！一個拿到定暫時狀態的處分我知道，所以我問你其他三個為什麼不用拆？"],["林局長文祥：現在是在訴訟中，公司有提出民事訴訟中。"],["黃委員國昌：我老實跟你講，不要講這種模稜兩可的東西啦，他有聲請定暫時狀態的處分，法院還沒准嘛。"],["林局長文祥：對。"],["黃委員國昌：法院還沒有准，他該不該拆？當然該拆嘛，如果法院還沒有准，他都可以不用拆，那他何必去聲請定暫時狀態的處分？那個定暫時狀態的處分有什麼意義？國防部加油一點好不好？硬起來好不好？還是說因為這個聯合再生有綠營的背景？軟趴趴，一模一樣，國防部看到聯合再生就要跪下去。硬起來好不好，可以嗎？副部長。"],["鍾副部長樹明：跟委員報告，沒有任何政黨的背景跟立場。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！但是你們做出來「離離落落」，人民看不懂，我也看不懂啊。我們都要保護臺灣的國家安全，這種廠商做這麼惡質的事情，結果國防部軟趴趴成這個樣子！回去檢討，需要多久？一樣兩個禮拜好不好？可以嗎？"],["鍾副部長樹明：我們兩個禮拜之後把辦理的情形跟委員做個說明，後續我們還是要依法辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：當然要依法辦理嘛。"],["主席：好，時間到，謝謝黃國昌委員的發言。好，請回。","接下來黃捷委員、黃捷委員、黃捷委員不在。","賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員、賴惠員委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員不在。","羅明才委員、羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","羅智強委員、羅智強委員、羅智強委員不在。","李昆澤委員、李昆澤委員、李昆澤委員不在。","王定宇委員、王定宇委員、王定宇委員不在。","接下來由邱志偉委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-2","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳冠廷","林楚茵","陳永康","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","邱志偉","林憶君","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國機國造交機進度及勇鷹高教機失事後檢修情況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00002"}}},{"id":"159123","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159123","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f6c3a666a95752c88ba53b8a5773cfe3dff1cdb1affc83ff45b2e05361ecac97e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:30:57 - 11:42:16","影片長度":"00:11:19","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:30:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:42:16+08:00","duration":679,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.80034375,"end":21.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.64784375,"end":23.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.74909375,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.617218750000003,"end":82.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.34721875000001,"end":107.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.09346875,"end":86.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.43096875,"end":86.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.05534375,"end":87.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.05471875,"end":91.39221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.86784375,"end":99.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.86221875000001,"end":119.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.57346875,"end":154.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.13034375000001,"end":120.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.07034375,"end":194.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.35909375,"end":236.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.92221875,"end":236.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.97284375,"end":245.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.96721875000003,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.82721875000001,"end":250.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.43034375000002,"end":253.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.40909375,"end":267.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.63471875,"end":267.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.78659375,"end":267.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.97221875,"end":269.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.96346875,"end":272.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.41846875000005,"end":274.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.97534375000004,"end":288.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.00846875,"end":280.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.03659375,"end":288.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.27284375,"end":288.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.28971875,"end":311.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.50471875,"end":289.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.65534375000004,"end":297.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.23659375,"end":305.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.45909375,"end":318.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.95159375000003,"end":324.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.74409375000005,"end":325.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.38096875,"end":329.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.70096875,"end":332.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.94096875,"end":334.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.52721875000003,"end":335.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.01221875000005,"end":336.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.88971875000004,"end":337.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.06659375000004,"end":342.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.38659375000003,"end":345.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.95159375000003,"end":362.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.25284375,"end":362.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.99534375,"end":378.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.01221875000005,"end":363.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.15534375000004,"end":365.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.14909375,"end":404.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.98409375,"end":381.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.29534375000003,"end":387.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.14721875000004,"end":390.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.50471875000005,"end":397.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.53846875000005,"end":397.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.63971875000004,"end":397.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.89221875000004,"end":456.92159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.93346875000003,"end":410.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.61659375000005,"end":438.00471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.49409375000005,"end":438.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.93284375,"end":438.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.96659375,"end":439.23659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.74596875000003,"end":449.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.01534375000006,"end":451.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.96846875000006,"end":492.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.10284375000003,"end":458.64284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.87909375000004,"end":459.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.52659375,"end":474.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.91659375,"end":522.5990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.55284375,"end":497.38784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.19784375,"end":498.26534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.17596875000004,"end":505.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":523.42596875,"end":531.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.84659375,"end":535.1709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":533.68596875,"end":535.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.37346875,"end":538.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":539.69346875,"end":542.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.1740937500001,"end":545.6840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":544.75596875,"end":544.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":545.44784375,"end":552.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.4640937500001,"end":550.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.54409375,"end":550.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.82659375,"end":564.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":564.3647187500001,"end":568.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.7565937500001,"end":575.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":573.6459687500001,"end":583.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.6359687500001,"end":604.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.36221875,"end":608.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.5647187500001,"end":608.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.7122187500001,"end":608.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.9653437500001,"end":609.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.0834687500001,"end":611.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.94346875,"end":620.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.5247187500001,"end":657.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":657.95346875,"end":666.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.45471875,"end":664.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.2390937499999,"end":673.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":666.98159375,"end":667.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.9678437500002,"end":674.55846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":18.051,"end":19.838,"text":"主席好 麻煩請找教育部政務次長好 我們請葉次長"},{"start":30.733,"end":42.4,"text":"今天大家在討論青年搬染基本法我針對兩個問題跟你請教一下第一個是青年定義因為我自己也有提一個版本青年定義是18歲到45歲為什麼是從18歲開始起算是因為12到18歲有兒童及少年福利權益保護法"},{"start":51.846,"end":78.665,"text":"那剛好銜接18歲以上那為什麼要到45歲呢因為我們其他的法律包括像是農發條例施行細則他那邊就直接指青年是指18歲以上45歲以下然後我們的青創代管的申請資格也是到45歲以下所以參考其他的法律啦那我的我們的版本是訂18到45歲然後我不曉得說因為現在沒有教育部的版本嘛"},{"start":79.125,"end":108.708,"text":"教育部現在規劃你們青年定義是幾歲然後原因是什麼我們目前定義是18到35歲為什麼是到35歲因為我們看其他國家的一些像韓國19歲到34歲大概都是在這個範圍那我們也希望說如果說這個年紀拉得太大的話又會稀釋掉這些資源所以我們大概就是採在國內外大家收集起來大概就是18到35歲是我們現在定的朝你的一個範圍可是你看好像"},{"start":109.388,"end":115.374,"text":"清創的貸款還有農發條例他們對於青年定義也包括35歲到45歲嘛所以他們也認為說應該要把資源用在35歲到45歲跟委員報告我想這個有一些我想這個不同的領域啦"},{"start":126.185,"end":154.474,"text":"因為現在創業蠻多人確實也是到40歲才開始創業所以在一些不同的業務上面它有一些這樣的彈性我們是覺得這是很OK的未來我們在青年基本法訂了以後我們也會允許我也希望說讓這部位原本它的業務有在照顧的年齡段不會因為青年基本法訂在35歲它像這個地方它就卡到35歲不會我們就讓它原來你的計畫已經在照顧的年段不會受到青年基本法的定義的影響第二個是"},{"start":155.214,"end":180.52,"text":"因為我們的法案裡面草案裡面也有定義一個青年的一個組織機關那因為教育部現在有青年發展署嘛所以我想要問次長就是如果這個法通過之後青年發展署它的位階會不會提高或者是說會不會擴充那我這邊提一個比較具體的問題因為我們現在很多地方政府都有設立青年局其實這個都利益良善啦大家都是為了要"},{"start":181.54,"end":209.639,"text":"發展青年嘛希望青年可以得到更好的照顧但是它會衍生出一個問題因為青年局成立之後會從其他的局把業務撥過來但有的業務其實在原本的局會比較發展會比較好舉個例子來講像比如說縣市政府的青年局可能會負責青創青年創業但青年創業以前是在經發局那經發局負責青創有一個好處因為他們有很多廠商資源所以可以推廣大手拉小手可是如果把青創的業務移到了"},{"start":210.359,"end":235.821,"text":"青年局這個大手拉小手的就沒有辦法在同一個局裡面把它整合起來就變成青年局要跟津巴局協調那局跟局之間協調絕對不會比同一個局裡面業務整合來的有效率所以如果我們推動這個青年發展基本法的話應該要有一個更上位的單位組織去整合協調把青年工作做好那現在教育部未來你們提的版本"},{"start":238.123,"end":251.7,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們朝你的版本就是那個專責機關就會未接拉提高到教育部由教育部到專責機關但教育部如果要跟經濟部或者是要跟勞動部協調教育部有辦法"},{"start":252.541,"end":270.735,"text":"只會動其他的單位嗎就像委員剛才提到接下來會很多跨部會的橫向協調那這部分我們在基本反應會在訂說由行政院召開跨部會的青年事務協調匯報那這大概是每個大概每三個月開一次那行政院的專責匯報的這個召集人是誰你們現在設定的召集人是誰"},{"start":274.634,"end":281.223,"text":"召集的應該是院長尤其是由院長來召集青眼的業務的協調匯報然後把各單位叫來然後業務單位是教育部那你認為這樣子推動的話會不會遇到我剛剛所講的問題"},{"start":290.134,"end":315.828,"text":"其實回過頭來也跟委員報告就像委員提到有些事情比如像創業或這些事情其實他應該還是在經濟部來處理會比較好教育部其實或是說不管是任何專責把他拿過來這個業務其實都沒有辦法做得比經濟部還要好所以我們想現在這樣的模式可能是比較能夠符合照顧到青年在各個面下的需求所以我們就提醒一下就是這個法院有通過之後有專責機關他應該要能夠協調不要讓說好像"},{"start":319.37,"end":345.05,"text":"有一些業務啊因為移波或什麼反而造成推動比原來更不利啊然後再來針對一些我關心的一些教育問題來跟次長請教一下因為我知道次長是來自於高教是在前一陣子教授提出一個現象他提出一個現象他發現學生的微積分的程度普遍下滑然後他還提到說清大"},{"start":346.024,"end":361.121,"text":"有很多學生停修演算法這比例非常高到三成那演算法就是跟AI相關這是等於是發展AI的基礎的學科那為什麼教授發現學生的專業程度逐漸下滑是因為108課綱的關係各位報告我先把這個教授的講完"},{"start":365.526,"end":383.127,"text":"那因為108課剛是高中的時候因為有一些必修課它減少了嘛所以造成基礎學科休息的時數下滑到大學之後就出現這個狀況那不知道次長你有掌握嗎各位委員報告這個資訊是我認為是不對的因為同樣的一個演算法的課在台大資訊系"},{"start":384.128,"end":409.636,"text":"這個學期停修的比例反而比較低所以這是單一科系的課程的問題但是另外一個就是台大在今年停修的它讓學生可以很晚很晚停修這是台大最近才開放的所以這個規定改變之後的停修的比例這跟去年比跟往年比其實除了這個教授有這個主張之外其實我聽過非常多其他學校的我也跟委員報告等一下"},{"start":410.976,"end":428.341,"text":"我其實聽過很多大學教授都反映一樣的狀況所以以前我在跟一些大學老師在談說少子化問題的時候他們推說他們現在推一個東西叫接觸學生接觸學生是說怕學生因為跟不上所以導致於可能學習的意願低落 離開學校"},{"start":429.221,"end":446.327,"text":"所以他們有時候還推一些可能補救教學就是加強學生的一些基礎的學科的能力這個其實不是說只有這個台大教授講我只是把這個現象跟部長講跟次長講那絕大多數的老師反應都是指向108課綱說108課綱因為必修學科減少所以產生這個狀況"},{"start":451.069,"end":475.956,"text":"那次長你也是來自於高教也許你的意見是不是但是我這邊反映的是很多老師的意見跟委員報告這其實有幾個面向第一個我們現在少子化我們現在新生兒只有30年前的三分之一你從三分之一裡面能不能選到前1%跟以前有三倍人數前1%那當然能力程度會有差別沒有啦這個跟108科有關第二個我在去年跟伯克萊大學的校長"},{"start":476.856,"end":506.016,"text":"我們面對面見面在談的時候伯克萊大學也有同樣的狀況UC San Diego也有同樣的狀況美國的這些一流帶都有同樣的狀況他們認為這個有幾個原因有世代的差異還有COVID-19疫情市長因為我還有其他的問題要問我們是提醒你現在學校有這種聲音也許你有你的看法但是很多學校的看法不是這樣如果你覺得他們看法不對的話也可以去溝通一下然後再來"},{"start":506.996,"end":522.308,"text":"問一個這個之前我有關心過的議題就是因為代理教師的職前年資在去年的時候已經當法官已經說教育部的現行的做法違憲那我不知道現在教育部什麼時候要訂定統一的辦法出來我請國教署說明好"},{"start":523.802,"end":537.119,"text":"新聞報告 我們有找縣市政府討論也取得共識那目前在修代理代課教師篇的辦法那應該會從今年8月1號吧今年8月1號開始所有的職前年資都會因為修辦法 修辦法不是不是 那什麼時候開始續新職前年資開始續新"},{"start":540.544,"end":564.057,"text":"細項的部分可能我們會後再給委員沒有沒有現在就可以講嘛現在直播大家都在看嘛不好意思因為委員我們督導的副署長沒有來所以我不是督導所以你的意思是說八月份的時候辦法會修出來但其實大家現在關心的不是辦法什麼時候修出來大家關心的是說那到底什麼時候開始實現年資可以納入續薪因為桃園好像已經事先實施了嘛"},{"start":564.457,"end":583.454,"text":"就基本上在沒有修辦法之前如果縣市政府要做也是可以我知道 當然縣市政府要做可以我現在是說因為教育部的態度跟統一的做法我現在問的是這件事情全國一致性的部分我們就是修辦法修辦法過 辦法發布過後全國各縣市就必須依照辦法就不能再不敘心這件事情"},{"start":584.355,"end":604.461,"text":"最後再問個問題啦因為最近大家都在討論還假漁民嘛那有一個藍綠白立委都有共識的節日就是教師節然後在幾個禮拜前有一次教團來這邊辦記者會那時候藍綠白的立委都有參加那大家都很支持教師節放假不知道說教育部的立場是怎樣這個我請人事處來說明一下你們現在立場是怎樣"},{"start":614.002,"end":629.389,"text":"因為這個部分實際上主政是內政部教育部的立場是尊重我知道主政內政部現在是問教師界立場因為其實在去年的上個會期那時候還沒有換卓院長的時候部長是潘文忠"},{"start":630.129,"end":657.353,"text":"那潘元忠那時候有透露啦我那時候是問的是勞動節因為主要是要幫一些老師他們是保勞保但是不是適用勞基法就是說他們勞動節沒放假那當時那個部長是講說其實人事行政總署有問各單位的意見那教育部其實是支持像這類的老師他在勞動節可以放假所以雖然主責可能是內政部或者是人事行政總署這個都OK我現在問的是教育部的立場支不支持教師節放假"},{"start":657.998,"end":674.049,"text":"教育部目前實際上對於勞動節跟教師節的部分我們都是屬於支持的立場那這個部分可是要看那個內政部所以到時候如果行政院有問各單位意見的時候教育部有反應說支持這兩個節制是放假的好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":583,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時31分）主席好，麻煩請找教育部政務次長。"],["主席：我們請葉次長。"],["葉次長丙成：委員早。"],["葉委員元之：次長早。今天大家討論的是青年發展基本法，我針對2個問題向你請教一下。第一個是青年的定義，因為我自己也提了一個版本，對於青年的定義是18歲到45歲，為什麼是從18歲開始起算呢？因為12歲到18歲有兒童及少年福利權益保護法，剛好可以銜接到18歲以上。為什麼要到45歲呢？根據其他的法律，像是農發條例施行細則直接就指青年是18歲以上、45歲以下，而青創貸款的申請資格也是到45歲以下，在參考其他的法律之後，我們的版本就是訂為18歲至45歲。因為現在沒有教育部的版本，請問教育部現在規劃的青年定義是幾歲？原因是什麼？"],["葉次長丙成：我們目前的定義是18歲到35歲。"],["葉委員元之：為什麼是到35歲？"],["葉次長丙成：其他國家像韓國是19歲到34歲，大概都是在這個range，而且我們認為如果將年紀拉得太大，恐怕會稀釋掉這些資源，根據我們蒐集到的國內外資料，18歲到35歲大概就是我們現在草擬的範圍。"],["葉委員元之：像是青創貸款及農發條例，對於青年的定義也包括35歲到45歲，所以他們也認為應該要把資源用在35歲到45歲。"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，我想這是不同的領域啦！以創業而言，現在滿多人確實是到40歲才開始創業，所以在不同的業務上保持這樣的彈性，我們覺得是OK的。未來在青年基本法訂定之後，我們也希望這個部會的業務原本照顧的年齡段不會因為青年基本法訂在35歲就因此切到35歲，不會！原本的計畫已經在照顧的年齡段不會受到青年基本法定義的影響。"],["葉委員元之：OK，了解。第二個，在我們的草案中也有定義一個青年的主責機關，因為教育部現在有青年發展署，所以我想要請問次長，如果這個法通過之後，青年發展署的位階會不會提高，或是會不會擴充？我這邊提一個比較具體的問題，現在很多地方政府都有設立青年局，其實這個都是立意良善，大家都希望青年能夠有發展、能夠得到更好的照顧，但是它會衍生出一個問題，因為青年局成立之後會從其他的局將業務撥過來，但有的業務其實是在原本的局發展會比較好，舉個例子來講，譬如縣市政府的青年局可能會負責青年創業，但是青年創業以前是由經發局負責，其實經發局負責青創有一個好處，因為他們有很多廠商資源，可以推廣大手拉小手，如果將青創業務移到青年局，這個大手拉小手就無法在同一個局裡整合起來，變成青年局要與經發局協調，局與局之間協調絕對不會比同一個局裡的業務整合來得有效率。如果我們推動青年發展基本法就應該要有一個更上位的單位、組織去整合協調，把青年工作做好，教育部未來提的版本是如何規劃？"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，目前我們草擬版本的專責機關是將位階提高至教育部，由教育部擔任專責機關。"],["葉委員元之：如果必須與經濟部、勞動部等相關部會協調時，教育部有辦法指揮得動其他單位嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：誠如剛剛委員所提，接下來會有很多跨部會的橫向協調，針對這個部分，我們會在基本法中訂定由行政院召開跨部會的青年事務協調會報，大概是每三個月會召開一次。"],["葉委員元之：行政院專責會報的召集人是誰？你們現在設定的召集人是誰？"],["葉次長丙成：召集人應該是院長。"],["葉委員元之：由院長召集青年業務協調會報，把各單位召集過來，業務單位則是教育部。"],["葉次長丙成：對。"],["葉委員元之：你認為這樣推動是否會遇到我剛才所講的問題？"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，就像委員提到的，有些事情，譬如創業還是由經濟部處理會比較好，無論是任何專責單位，把這個業務拿過來其實都沒辦法做得比經濟部還要好，所以我們認為現在這樣的模式比較能夠照顧到青年在各個面向的需求。"],["葉委員元之：我們是再提醒一下啦！"],["葉次長丙成：是。"],["葉委員元之：在這部法通過之後會有專責機關，它應該是要能夠負責協調，不要讓有些業務因為移撥或其他因素導致推動得比原本更不力。"],["葉次長丙成：是。"],["葉委員元之：再來是針對我關心的一些教育問題向次長請教一下，我知道次長是來自於高教，前陣子有臺大教授提出一個現象，他發現學生的微積分程度普遍下滑，也提到清大有很多學生停修演算法，這個比例非常高，達到了三成之多。演算法其實是與AI相關，等於是發展AI的基礎學科，為什麼教授發現學生的專業程度逐漸下滑？其實是因為108課綱的關係……"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員……"],["葉委員元之：我先把這個教授的看法講完。"],["葉次長丙成：好。"],["葉委員元之：因為108課綱將高中的一些必修課減少，造成基礎學科修習的時數下滑，到了大學之後就會出現這個狀況，不知道次長是否有掌握嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，我認為這個資訊是不對的。"],["葉委員元之：不對的？"],["葉次長丙成：同樣一個演算法的課在臺大資訊系這學期停修的比例反而比較低，所以這是單一科系的課程問題。另外一個是臺大今年讓學生可以很晚很晚才停修，這是臺大今年才開放的做法，在規定改變之後的停修比例與去年相比並沒有這麼……"],["葉委員元之：除了這位教授有這個主張之外，其實我也聽過非常多其他學校的……"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員……"],["葉委員元之：其實我聽過很多大學教授都反映一樣的狀況，因此，以前我與一些大學老師談到少子化問題的時候，他們說現在推出了所謂的接觸學生，怕學生會因為跟不上導致學習意願低落而離開學校，所以他們有時候還推一些補救教學，加強學生的基礎學科能力。其實並不是只有臺大教授提出這樣的看法，我只是把這個現象告訴次長，絕大多數老師的反映都是指向108課綱。"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，不是……"],["葉委員元之：因為108課綱的必修學科減少才會產生這個狀況，次長，你也是來自於高教，也許你認為並不是如此，但我這邊反映的是很多老師的意見。"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，這個部分其實有幾個面向，第一個是少子化，我們現在的新生兒只有30年前的三分之一，從三分之一裡面選到前1%，與以前有3倍的前1%，當然在能力上、程度上會有差別，與108課綱完全沒有關係。第二個，去年我與柏克萊大學的校長見面時談到，柏克萊大學也有同樣的狀況、UC聖地牙哥也有同樣的狀況、美國的一流大學都有同樣的狀況，他們認為有幾個原因，包括世代的差異、COVID的疫情……"],["葉委員元之：我還有其他的問題要問，剛才只是提醒你，在學校有這樣的聲音，也許你有你的看法，但是很多學校的看法不是如此，如果你覺得他們的看法不對，也可以去溝通一下。"],["葉次長丙成：是，我們會再溝通。"],["葉委員元之：再來要問一個之前我關心過的議題，關於代理教師的職前年資，去年大法官已經表示教育部現行的作法違憲，不知道教育部什麼時候會訂定出統一的辦法？"],["葉次長丙成：我請國教署來說明。"],["葉委員元之：好。"],["許副署長麗娟：報告委員，我們已經找縣市政府討論、也已經取得了共識，目前正在修代理代課教師評量辦法，應該會從今年8月1日開始。"],["葉委員元之：今年8月1日開始，所有的職前年資都會……"],["許副署長麗娟：修辦法。"],["葉委員元之：什麼時候開始敘薪？職前年資開始敘薪？"],["許副署長麗娟：細項的部分可能會後再提供給委員。"],["葉委員元之：現在就可以講嘛！現在正在直播，大家都在看嘛！"],["許副署長麗娟：不好意思！因為我們督導的副署長不一樣。"],["葉委員元之：沒有來？"],["許副署長麗娟：我不是督導這項業務。"],["葉委員元之：你是說這項辦法會在8月修出來，但是大家現在關心的不是辦法什麼時候修出來，而是職前年資到底什麼時候可以開始納入敘薪，因為桃園好像已經事先實施了。"],["許副署長麗娟：基本上，在還沒有修訂辦法之前，如果縣市政府要做也是可以，但是就全國一致性……"],["葉委員元之：我知道當然是可以，但是現在我問的是教育部的態度及統一的做法。"],["許副署長麗娟：針對全國一致性的部分，我們就是要修訂辦法，如果辦法發布之後，全國各縣市就必須依照辦法，不能再有不敘薪的這件事情。"],["葉委員元之：最後再問一個問題，因為最近大家都在討論還假於民，有一個藍、綠、白立委都有共識的節日，也就是教師節，在幾個禮拜前，有一次教團來這邊辦記者會，那時候藍、綠、白的立委都有參加，大家都很支持教師節放假，不知道教育部的立場是怎樣？"],["葉次長丙成：這個問題我請人事處來說明一下。"],["葉委員元之：你們現在的立場是怎樣？"],["黃副處長弘君：報告委員會，這個部分實際上主政是內政部，教育部的立場是尊重。"],["葉委員元之：我知道主政是內政部，現在是問教育部的立場。其實在去年的上個會期，那時候還沒有換卓院長的時候，部長是潘文忠，潘文忠那時候有透露，我那時候問的是勞動節，因為主要是要幫一些老師，他們是保勞保，但是不是適用勞基法，就是說他們勞動節沒放假。當時部長是說，其實人事行政總處有問各單位的意見，那教育部其實是支持，像這類的老師在勞動節可以放假。雖然主責可能是內政部或是人事行政總處，這個都OK，我現在問的是教育部的立場，支不支持教師節放假？"],["黃副處長弘君：教育部目前實際上對於勞動節跟教師節的部分，我們都是屬於支持的立場。"],["葉委員元之：支持教師節放假。"],["黃副處長弘君：這個部分要看內政部……"],["葉委員元之：我知道，所以到時候如果行政院有問各單位意見的時候，教育部也會反映說支持這兩個節是放假的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。次長請回，我們接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-2","speakers":["林宜瑾","黃捷","林楚茵","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","林德福","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","范雲","吳思瑤","邱志偉","陳培瑜","李坤城"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基\n本法草案」案；三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；四、審查委員吳思瑤等\n47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；六、\n審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法\n草案」案；八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；九、審查委員王美惠等17人\n擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十一、審\n查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十二、審查委員葛如鈞等19人擬具「青年基本\n法草案」案；十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十四、審查委員魯明哲\n等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；\n十六、審查委員葉元之等 20 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十七、審查委員林德福等 20 人擬具\n「青年發展基本法草案」案；十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案 (僅進行\n詢答)","agenda_id":"1142601_00009"}}},{"id":"159122","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159122","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fcab5d6fc28cb8b336de99780e8e59786ff1cdb1affc83ff4c1ddeb1cac72fbc55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"11:31:34 - 11:40:35","影片長度":"00:09:01","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:31:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:40:35+08:00","duration":541,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.00471875,"end":8.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.548468750000001,"end":10.847843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.927218750000002,"end":16.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.17596875,"end":18.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.20971875,"end":17.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.69471875,"end":25.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.86659375,"end":34.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.612843750000003,"end":29.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.236593750000004,"end":34.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.28721875,"end":34.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.32096875,"end":34.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.37159375,"end":34.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.67534375,"end":34.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.877843750000004,"end":34.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.962218750000005,"end":35.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.06346875,"end":35.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.97471875,"end":39.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.501593750000005,"end":47.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.922218750000006,"end":50.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.369093750000005,"end":59.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.00471875,"end":60.35909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.27034375,"end":67.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.23971875000001,"end":71.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.39534375000001,"end":72.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.12096875,"end":72.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.18846875,"end":75.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.73221875,"end":78.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.34346875,"end":85.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.50284375000001,"end":101.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.50971875,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.13409375,"end":96.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.53409375000001,"end":104.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.74034375000001,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.97159375000001,"end":118.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.68034375,"end":111.22034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.30346875000001,"end":143.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.32909375,"end":145.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.03784375,"end":153.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.25659375,"end":149.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.10409375,"end":153.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.23909375000002,"end":153.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.25596875000002,"end":153.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.40784375,"end":153.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.44159375,"end":153.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.52596875,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.96471875,"end":154.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.09971875000002,"end":154.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.11659375000002,"end":154.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.20096875000002,"end":154.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.97721875000002,"end":171.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.12471875,"end":156.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.09909375,"end":158.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.21659375000002,"end":162.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.84471875,"end":166.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.21534375000002,"end":171.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.61596875,"end":190.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.02221875,"end":193.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.11034375,"end":203.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.52221875,"end":206.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.08721875,"end":208.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.57221875000002,"end":208.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.33159375000002,"end":217.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.55909375000002,"end":212.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.97159375,"end":259.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.53471875,"end":265.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.47471875,"end":269.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.96346875,"end":270.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.03096875,"end":270.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.95909375,"end":276.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.27034375,"end":285.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.65721875,"end":285.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.79221875,"end":286.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.02846875,"end":292.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.52534375,"end":299.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.53284375000004,"end":300.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.93346875000003,"end":306.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.66659375,"end":331.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.37159375000005,"end":332.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.13096875,"end":348.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.19159375000004,"end":351.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.22909375,"end":352.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.26284375,"end":359.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.12659375000004,"end":368.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.57659375000003,"end":385.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.69784375,"end":377.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.92971875,"end":378.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.96221875000003,"end":386.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.02971875000003,"end":387.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.97034375000004,"end":392.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.88534375,"end":392.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.56034375,"end":398.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.57721875000004,"end":393.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.43721875,"end":398.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.80409375000005,"end":400.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.03596875000005,"end":400.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.08221875000004,"end":401.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.14971875000003,"end":417.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.06284375,"end":424.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.95284375,"end":419.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.63159375000004,"end":422.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.99846875000003,"end":424.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.08284375000005,"end":424.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.20096875,"end":436.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.89096875,"end":450.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.12721875000005,"end":437.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.68221875,"end":450.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.28971875,"end":450.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.42471875,"end":452.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.76221875000005,"end":452.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.80409375000005,"end":452.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.90534375000004,"end":452.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.92221875,"end":453.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.07409375000003,"end":453.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.17534375,"end":453.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.20909375,"end":458.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.36096875000004,"end":453.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.49159375000005,"end":455.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.52909375,"end":459.52034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.08159375,"end":462.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.84471875,"end":467.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.65409375,"end":467.95784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.97471875,"end":467.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.99159375000005,"end":468.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.02534375000005,"end":468.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.05909375000005,"end":468.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.97034375000004,"end":480.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.27659375,"end":480.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.86721875,"end":480.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.88409375000003,"end":480.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.91784375000003,"end":481.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.67721875,"end":481.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.93034375,"end":481.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.94721875000005,"end":481.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.98096875000005,"end":485.99721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.11534375,"end":489.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.16596875000005,"end":486.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.11471875,"end":497.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.67909375000005,"end":540.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.12596875,"end":499.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.29846875000004,"end":503.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.78284375000004,"end":508.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.45346875,"end":509.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.0459687499999,"end":525.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.42784375,"end":539.60909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.021,"end":9.905,"text":"我首先請教一下公民會成立30年來有出現過主委嫌缺的狀況嗎"},{"start":26.479,"end":49.324,"text":"過去曾經有過主委提前離職提前離職所以我曾經副主委短暫代理過短暫代理但沒有像這樣子整個懸缺的就是那個不是從一開始就懸缺這是第一次這是第一次啦齁那當時沒有通過的原因其實當時看起來是包括幾位藍白的批評的是因為當時受原來被提名的主委被提名李美"},{"start":49.704,"end":70.945,"text":"他沒有制止洪才龍的一個發言然後沒有制止此事所以導致他也被那個不是他自己出問題是他當主席或什麼沒有制止那這個陳代主委那你現在當主席了如果有委員這是合議制的委員如果要發言的話你要不要制止未來類似像這樣狀況你要不要制止"},{"start":71.594,"end":97.118,"text":"我想我也知道在委員會裡面每個委員獨立行職職權那當然也包含主委副主委所以我們當然有自己的看法所以假設我就如同在之前這個案子如果我覺得這個是不對的或是不妥當的我會發言但是最後的決議還是要委員多數的多數決來決定那我也會尊重委員多數的一個意見所以你不會去制止其他委員的發言嗎他有發言的權利我會提醒"},{"start":97.498,"end":118.685,"text":"就如同在這個案子裡面我會提醒說這個可能有一些跟法律有一點出入的地方那當然最後委員因為不同的委員有不同的評估也許他們不認為有那這個我都尊重每個委員一樣大啦當然主委副主委也是那個但每個委員會就是合一致嘛那當然尊重委員的發言的權益當然會提醒他注意但是"},{"start":119.365,"end":143.369,"text":"沒有權力 竹委就一定制止誰一定不能發言嘛對不對不行對 那因為這樣的理由就把一個竹委給封殺掉我認為這個太過分啦就是說竹委沒有這樣的權力完全制止一個委員完全不能發言如果不能發言的話那還叫委員會制嗎就失去委員會制所以將來竹委你也會遇到這樣的問題所以我認為其實用這樣的理由來封殺李美竹委我認為其實是不公平的"},{"start":144.44,"end":171.144,"text":"因為這是立委的權限啦所以我不太適合發表任何的看法但我只是認為在委員會裡面每一個委員都獨立行使職權所以將來因為你現在代理主委嘛你會主持會議的其他委員如果有意見表達的時候我一定讓他們暢所欲言你會讓暢所欲言每個委員的權利是一樣的但是你會提醒他們嘛對不對那最後的結果是合議制嘛合議來做決定的嘛我覺得這樣子國家制度要這樣建立才會走得長久啦那我可以提醒所有的"},{"start":171.804,"end":190.102,"text":"提醒所有的立委同事們在處理人事案不應該用這樣的方式來做否決你可以用任何原因去否決他但是用這樣的理由否決他這是亂了國家的制度也亂了一個委員會公平委員會的該有的一個制度我認為這個是不對的我認為這是不對任何人都可能遭遇這個狀況都不應該用這樣的理由去否決他"},{"start":191.104,"end":200.014,"text":"好我第一要講這個第二個是我想要問一下這一次的公民會很多的業務費包括他被刪了526萬被凍結了30%1276萬我問一下主委代理主委這個凍結會不會影響到業務的進行"},{"start":209.824,"end":231.073,"text":"我想應該就是已經影響了就是在調查上比如說同仁出去不管是交通費還是時數這些其實我們都必須要配合因為你的預算凍結你永遠不知道什麼時候解凍嘛對不對你不知道這個位置能不能解凍還是下個月才解凍那如果等到了下個月才解凍的話那你這個位置的錢當然要很省著用了嘛所以你當然不敢操之的用你應該"},{"start":232.894,"end":258,"text":"大家都已經是做最壞的打算可能這個凍結最後是不解凍的一定是做最壞的打算思考因為你沒有把握立法院一定聽你們的立法院怎麼可能聽你們的說一定解凍你沒有把握所以你必然尊潔使用所以這必然會影響到就像前面大家所講到的又要公平會全力來做事又要把你的預算整個凍結成這樣子那如果我問一下現在已經實質影響到了對不對"},{"start":259.56,"end":276.212,"text":"就是在業務單位在派同仁出去調查案子這個過程當中我們就必須要重新再調整因為不管是時速交通等等所以這就是影響了嘛對不對對就是會產生影響那如果這個會期沒辦法解凍的話拖到下個月9月之後才做解凍的話會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":277.318,"end":306.876,"text":"我們當然就是在既有人力盡可能去調配啦但是就是那會不會影響到你們的相關的業務的進行跟調查的各方面的會不會影響到我是比較擔心那個調查還有案件決策的品質就是說如果說調查的人員少然後沒有充分的就是一方面調查的人員能夠派出去的少嘛二方面你要邀請來的可能也會被受到影響那你這樣你的品質就會受到影響甚至很多案件你可能只能就你既有人力去做一些調查就是就"},{"start":307.436,"end":330.92,"text":"瑕疵就會變多啦有可能有這樣的可能啦對所以我認為這個都這個都是應該要盡速的我覺得動這麼多30%動的其實我坦白講我覺得動的太多啦而且恐怕這接下來能解到的方式就是一方面行政院有行政處理方式一方面我可能也要請立法院要盡速來做討論如果不解凍的話形同讓公聘會的功能會失去了一部分的這個功能的運作"},{"start":331.8,"end":351.235,"text":"謝謝委員好 謝謝再來我想請教一下現在今天大家也都談到台積電跟Intel這樣的一個關係我先問一下台積電怎麼樣的狀況下因為它如果假如要併購或者是Intel的金融代工部門的話那什麼樣的狀況下會進到公平會來做審查"},{"start":352.296,"end":367.997,"text":"第一個就是我們要觀察他的合作模式如果台積電跟這些美國企業合作模式屬於我們的結合我們公平法的結合定義那以目前台積電的市佔利益那個都很高所以他可能就必須要來跟公平會來申請結合審查再講得更清楚結合是怎麼樣的"},{"start":369.962,"end":397.505,"text":"結合是什麼樣的狀況第十條總共列了五種情形就是譬如說當然收購股權這是一個類型合資也算合資在某些情況下收購主要的資產這個都可能構成結合所以這個都會結合那如果進到結合的話那進到結合就一定要進到公平會來做審查進到結合接下來看的是市佔率跟營業額那因為台積電它的市佔率跟營業額應該都超過都超過所以如果它有剛剛講到的併購或者是合資的話那就要進到公平會來做審查嘛"},{"start":398.806,"end":413.792,"text":"好 那公平會會怎麼來審查這件事情一旦進到公平會審查我們當然就會依照這個他們合作的類型是屬於水平競爭者的合作還是有涉及到垂直還是多角化我們有不同的審查的結構會有一些不同的因素跟證據會去收集跟分析啦"},{"start":414.301,"end":436.036,"text":"那些架構都已經在了所以我們有準備了所以公平會員已經做了準備了一旦如果有這樣的狀況發生公平會會善盡你們的職責來做這樣的一個審查那接下來我想講一下時間有限現在很多的傳銷它是用虛擬的貨幣來進行的公平會對這個部分會去加重查很多甚至於涉及到詐騙傳銷這個部分公平會能夠加強來做審查"},{"start":436.957,"end":462.985,"text":"因為我們投影片上所提的這個Pi 這個我們有去了解這個是手機上的一個虛擬貨幣挖礦的一個軟體那因為虛擬貨幣本身現在不是法定的貨幣所以它是違法的 這個部分不會在我們的傳銷所以不會到你們的傳銷 直接違法就對了對對 刑法 直接刑法直接處理但如果你沒有掌握到直接就送去給法務部說刑法處理如果有這樣的情況我們可能如果有查到 你們相關查緝有查到就直接該送就送好嗎"},{"start":463.305,"end":485.632,"text":"如果是屬於這種刑事違法就是依重檢調這份刑事的條例好那再來今天剛剛大家也提到一番賞的部分現在也有很多啦這種的一番賞的這個實體的來抽的這個很多店家詐騙啊甚至作弊平傳的部分這個部分公平會不會做處理嗎太涉及到廣告不實的問題啊對事實上我們處理過之前的唐奇科的那個案子"},{"start":486.252,"end":511.061,"text":"那雖然最後是沒有罰款 但是基本上我們是認定他是違法的所以這種一番賞的行為 如果他本身是用廣告的方式來呈現那誤導消費者 他是有可能在我們這邊使用我還是希望公平化還是要持續的去做查查唯有你不斷的查查之後 他們才有壓力去防止這樣的行為的發生好不好這個其實也涉及到廣告不實的啊你明明說裡面有 但是事實上最後是沒有的嘛事實上就是廣告不實嘛所以我希望這一塊公平化還是要長"},{"start":511.701,"end":540.249,"text":"最後一個啦 現在很多的網紅業配包括團購都是宣傳不實這個部分我看到公平會議已經有開罰了一件了未來會不會持續的加強來查處跟開罰我們當然既然已經有一個前例在那邊我們持續會觀察這類型的手段現在網路的時代越多這種網紅業配包括團購廣告不實會越來越多啦唯有公平會善盡你們的職責的時候才能夠減少受騙 減少消費者的受害好不好 請諸位要持續加強查查是 謝謝委員好 謝謝 辛苦了 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":671,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時31分）謝謝主席，請陳代理主委。"],["主席：請陳代理主委。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委辛苦了，我首先請教一下，公平會成立30年來有出現過主委懸缺的狀況嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：過去曾經有過主委提前離職，所以曾經有副主委短暫代理過。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有提前離職短暫代理，但沒有像這樣子整個懸缺的，那是因為不同？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：不是，那個不是從一開始就懸缺，這是第一次。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這是第一次？當時沒有通過的原因其實看起來是包括幾位藍白的……批評的是因為原來主委被提名人李鎂沒有制止洪財隆的發言，沒有制止此事，所以導致他也被那個了，並不是他自己出問題，而是他當主席沒有制止。陳代主委你現在當主席了，這是合議制的，委員如果要發言，你要不要制止？未來類似像這樣的狀況，你要不要制止？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想委員也知道在委員會議裡面每個委員獨立行使職權，當然也包含主委、副主委，所以我們當然有自己的看法，假設我就如同之前這個案子，如果我覺得這個是不對的或是不妥當的，我會發言，但是最後的決議還是要委員多數決來決定，我也會尊重委員多數的意見。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以你不會去制止其他委員的發言，他有發言的權利嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我會提醒，就如同在這個案子裡面，我會提醒這個可能有一些跟法律有一點出入的地方，當然最後因為不同委員有不同的評估，也許他們不認為有，這個我都尊重。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，就是每個委員一樣大啦！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：當然主委、副主委也是，但委員會就是合議制，當然尊重委員發言的權利，會提醒他注意，但是主委沒有權利制止誰一定不能發言，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：嗯，不行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，因為這樣的理由就把一個主委給封殺掉，我認為這個太過分了，就是說主委沒有這樣的權利制止一個委員完全不能發言，如果不能發言的話還叫委員會制嗎？那就失去了委員會制。所以將來主委你也會遇到這樣問題，我認為其實用這樣的理由來封殺李鎂主委是不公平的，你認同這樣的看法嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為這是立委的權限，所以我不太適合發表任何的看法，但我只是認為在委員會裡面每一個委員都獨立行使職權。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，因為你現在代理主委，將來你也會主持會議，其他委員如果有意見表達的時候……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我一定讓他們暢所欲言。"],["賴委員瑞隆：你會讓他們暢所欲言，每個委員的權利是一樣的，但是你會提醒他們，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：最後的結果是合議制，是合議來作決定的，我覺得國家制度要這樣建立才會走得長久啦！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，這是我一直的看法。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們也提醒所有的立委同事們在處理人事案不應該用這樣的方式來做否決，你可以用任何原因去否決他，但是用這樣的理由否決他是亂了國家的制度，也亂了公平委員會該有的制度，我認為這是不對的，任何人都可能遭遇這個狀況，都不應該用這樣的理由去否決他。這是我第一個要講的。","第二個我想要問一下，這一次公平會很多的業務費包括被刪了526萬、被凍結了30%計1,276萬，我問一下代理主委，這個凍結會不會影響到業務的進行？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想應該就是已經影響了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：已經影響了嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：就是在調查上譬如同仁出去，不管是交通費還是食宿，這些其實我們都必須要配合的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為你的預算被凍結，你永遠不知道什麼時候解凍，對不對？你不知道這個會期能不能解凍，還是下個會期才解凍，如果等到了下個會期才解凍的話，那你這個會期的錢要很省著用了，所以你當然不敢超支的用，應該大家都一定做最壞的打算，可能這個凍結最後是不解凍的，一定是做最壞的打算思考，因為你沒有把握立法院一定聽你們的，立法院怎麼可能聽你們的一定解凍？你沒有把握嘛！所以你必然撙節使用。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這必然會影響到，那就像前面大家所講到的，又要公平會全力來做事、又要把你的預算整個凍結成這樣子。我問一下，現在已經實質影響到了對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：就是業務單位在派同仁出去調查案子的這個過程當中，我們就必須要重新再調整，因為不管是食宿、交通等等……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這就是影響了嘛，對不對？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，就是會產生影響。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果這個會期沒辦法解凍，拖到下個會期9月之後才做解凍的話，會有什麼樣的影響？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們當然就是在既有人力盡可能去調配，但是就是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：那會不會影響到你們相關業務的進行跟調查各方面？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我是比較擔心那個調查還有案件決策的品質，就是如果調查的人員少，然後沒有充分的時間……"],["賴委員瑞隆：就是一方面調查人員能夠派出去的少，二方面你邀請來的可能費用會受到影響。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，辦理各種宣導。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那這樣你的品質就會受到影響，甚至很多案件你可能只能就你既有的人力去做一些調查，就是瑕疵會變多啦！有可能……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，有這樣的可能。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我認為這個都是應該要儘速的，我覺得凍這麼多，30%其實坦白講我覺得凍得太多了，而且恐怕接下來能解套的方式就是一方面行政院有行政院處理方式，一方面我可能也要請立法院儘速來做討論，如果不解凍的話，形同會讓公平會失去一部分的功能運作。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。再來我想請教一下，今天大家也都談到台積電跟Intel這樣的一個關係，我先問一下，台積電在怎麼樣的狀況下……因為它如果要併購Intel的晶圓代工部門的話，在什麼樣的狀況下會進到公平會來做審查？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：第一個就是我們要觀察它的合作模式，如果台積電跟這些美國企業合作模式屬於我們公平法的結合定義，以目前台積電的市占率、營業額都很高，所以它可能就必須要來跟公平會申請結合審查。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請再講得更清楚，結合是什麼樣的狀況？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：第十條總共列了五種情形，譬如收購股權當然是一個類型、合資在某一種情況下也算、收購主要的資產，這個都可能構成結合。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這個都算結合，如果進到結合的話就一定要進到公平會來做審查嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：進到結合接下來看的是市占率跟營業額，那因為台積電的規模……"],["賴委員瑞隆：它的市占率跟營業額應該都超過吧？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：都超過了，所以它……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以如果它有剛剛講到的併購或者是合資的話，就要進到公平會來做審查嘛。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：那公平會會怎麼來審查這件事情？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：一旦進到公平會審查，我們當然就會依照他們合作的類型是屬於水平競爭者的合作、還是有涉及到垂直、還是多角化，我們有不同的審查結構，會有一些不同的因素跟證據會去蒐集跟分析，那些架構都已經在了，所以我們有準備了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，所以公平會已經做了準備了？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們有在瞭解跟準備。"],["賴委員瑞隆：一旦如果有這樣的狀況發生，公平會要善盡你們的職責來做這樣的一個審查。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。因為時間有限，接下來我想請教，現在很多的傳銷是用虛擬貨幣來進行的，公平會對這個部分會去加重查嗎？很多甚至於涉及到詐騙、傳銷，這個部分公平會能夠加強來做審查嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員投影片上所提的Pi，這個我們有去了解，這個是手機上的一個虛擬貨幣挖礦的一個軟體，因為虛擬貨幣本身現在不是法定的貨幣，所以他是違法，這個部分不會在我們的傳銷……"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以不會到你們的傳銷？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：不會。"],["賴委員瑞隆：直接就違法就對了？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，那就是刑法……"],["賴委員瑞隆：刑法直接就處理？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但如果你們有掌握到，直接就送去給法務部做刑法處理……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，如果有這樣的情況我們可能會……"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果你們相關的查緝有查到，就直接該送就送好嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：如果是屬於這種刑事違法，就是移送檢調刑事調查。"],["賴委員瑞隆：再來，剛剛大家提到一番賞的部分現在也很多，這種一番賞實體來抽的有很多店家詐騙甚至作弊頻傳的部分，這個部分公平會不會做處理嗎？他也涉及到廣告不實的問題。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，事實上我們處理過之前唐吉訶德那個案子，雖然最後沒有罰鍰，但是基本上我們認定它是違法的，所以這種一番賞的行為如果它本身是用廣告的方式來呈現，誤導消費者，它是有可能在我們……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我還是希望公平會要持續去做查察，唯有你不斷的查察，他們才有壓力，能去防止這樣的行為發生，好不好？因為這個其實也涉及到廣告不實，你明明說裡面有，但是事實上最後是沒有，事實上就是廣告不實嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我希望這塊公平會還是要查。","最後一個，現在很多的網紅業配、包括團購都是宣傳不實，這個部分我看到公平會已經有開罰1件，未來會不會持續的加強裁處跟開罰？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：當然既然已經有一個前例在那邊，我們會持續觀察這些類型的手段。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在網路的時代越多，這種網紅業配、包括團購廣告不實會越來越多，唯有公平會善盡你們職責的時候才能夠減少受騙、減少消費者的受害，好不好？請主委要持續加強查察。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝，辛苦了！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","下一位請蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員、蘇巧慧委員不在場。","麻煩張嘉郡委員代理主席。"],["主席（張委員嘉郡代）：我們請蔡易餘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-2","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","陳培瑜"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00003"}}},{"id":"159121","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159121","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f69e49b1c87b4d37ee83d902c8d6dd6c2ff1cdb1affc83ff4420fad759d9e24575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:25:19 - 11:36:13","影片長度":"00:10:54","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:25:19+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:36:13+08:00","duration":654,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.4778437500000003,"end":5.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.72971875,"end":42.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.754718750000002,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.42846875,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.95909375,"end":28.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.950343750000002,"end":30.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.28159375,"end":55.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.853468750000005,"end":64.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.40471875,"end":68.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.79221875,"end":70.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.34034375,"end":77.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.68971875000001,"end":77.72346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.72346875000001,"end":89.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.44346875000001,"end":88.48971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.35034375000001,"end":90.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.07596875,"end":95.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.38721875,"end":100.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.84221875,"end":107.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.21659375,"end":110.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.87471875000001,"end":118.18971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.32471875,"end":118.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.74659375,"end":124.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.16346875,"end":124.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.68659375000001,"end":157.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.92159375,"end":133.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.07596875000002,"end":144.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.55471875,"end":164.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.28784375,"end":166.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.38471875000002,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.80221875,"end":168.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.57846875,"end":173.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.61221875,"end":168.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.69659375,"end":168.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.04596875000001,"end":174.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.02471875,"end":176.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.45909375000002,"end":179.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.76659375,"end":180.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.71159375000002,"end":181.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.21784375000001,"end":198.48096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.48096875000002,"end":198.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.83096875,"end":200.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.89409375000002,"end":203.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.93159375000002,"end":216.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.84534375,"end":227.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.64221875,"end":220.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.92471875,"end":247.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.60284375,"end":229.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.94346875000002,"end":237.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.19221875000002,"end":237.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.89096875,"end":251.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.95784375000002,"end":255.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.83909375000002,"end":264.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.45784375,"end":265.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.47471875,"end":287.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.53034375000004,"end":292.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.84221875000003,"end":300.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.30096875000004,"end":297.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.94596875,"end":308.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.40034375000005,"end":324.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.39096875,"end":315.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.31784375,"end":330.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.33784375000005,"end":332.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.70471875000004,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.97471875,"end":333.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.68346875000003,"end":333.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.20659375,"end":334.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.22346875,"end":339.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.84284375000004,"end":347.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.43659375000004,"end":350.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.38971875000004,"end":359.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.94096875,"end":378.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.34596875,"end":361.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.67471875,"end":365.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.71971875,"end":372.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.24659375000005,"end":376.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.69784375,"end":382.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.99659375000005,"end":386.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.08034375,"end":393.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.35784375000003,"end":395.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.48846875000004,"end":393.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.14221875000004,"end":396.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.22221875,"end":399.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.76221875000005,"end":396.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.11221875,"end":398.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.43284375,"end":398.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.48346875000004,"end":398.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.60159375,"end":398.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.81659375000004,"end":410.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.46034375000005,"end":411.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.20284375,"end":419.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.31971875000005,"end":425.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.50034375,"end":428.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.23846875000004,"end":427.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.48721875,"end":432.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.20846875,"end":430.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.89159375,"end":452.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.30846875000003,"end":438.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.53409375,"end":453.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.04034375000003,"end":453.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.27659375,"end":453.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.44534375,"end":453.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.96846875000006,"end":464.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.77346875,"end":461.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.30034375,"end":466.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.75159375000004,"end":465.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.38846875,"end":470.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.04659375000006,"end":467.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.60721875,"end":474.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.40409375,"end":474.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.60659375000006,"end":474.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.02846875000006,"end":481.77846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.05284375,"end":493.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.91346875000005,"end":482.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.12409375000004,"end":486.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.76471875000004,"end":489.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.70909375,"end":507.12471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.34409375,"end":521.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.4640937500001,"end":558.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.85659375,"end":549.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.2234687499999,"end":550.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.86346875,"end":559.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.15034375,"end":576.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.1672187500001,"end":559.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.7847187500001,"end":581.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.5772187499999,"end":589.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.1497187500001,"end":599.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.9709687500001,"end":639.6103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.46034375,"end":600.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.98596875,"end":612.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.9509687500001,"end":620.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.4697187500001,"end":623.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.90596875,"end":653.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.54534375,"end":650.7140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.77721875,"end":652.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.9709687500001,"end":654.4097187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.54,"end":5.583,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請楊總裁林委員早好 總裁早 總裁我想本席今天就將全國民眾最關心的幾項國內外的議題 包含川普上台政府如何因應還有烏俄戰爭仍然持續這樣的國際情勢我們台灣應該如何面對來向總裁就教"},{"start":32.665,"end":45.831,"text":"根據央行在去年12月19號發布的經濟預測去年的經濟成長率上修到4.25%今年則預測大概是3.13%同時中研院經濟所也預測今年的成長率大概是3.1%"},{"start":55.916,"end":68.485,"text":"而關於貨幣的調整央行也已經連續三次維持基準率大概是在2%不變我想請問說我們今年下修的原因是什麼"},{"start":74.09,"end":94.626,"text":"經濟成長率今年會下修的原因是什麼事實上我覺得我有看過那個因為我們現在我們在3月20號我們會有另外一個focus但是我覺得主計總署他下修的一個"},{"start":96.708,"end":124.521,"text":"讓我知道的就是說他下修的一個很重要的一個因素是在於他的那個什麼存貨的調整存貨的調整對存貨調整也就是說他的民間的投資的這個部分呢不像他上一次所預期的那麼的高是因為存貨調整他本身呢本身是屬於民間投資的部分"},{"start":125.021,"end":145.478,"text":"總裁我想這個當然是或許他下修的原因之一但是我告訴你依據這個主計總署他在2月26號他發布國內經濟預測表示是因為立法院三減預算會削弱成長的動能因此下修今年經濟成長率到3.14%"},{"start":149.921,"end":163.168,"text":"跟他原先預測的數減少了大概0.15%所以我想請教總裁是說這個主計總署他說調降GDP的理由是因為立法院刪減預算"},{"start":165.342,"end":177.974,"text":"您同意嗎?你覺得這個因素要去考量下去,他這樣的講法成立嗎?是啦,你們不是也有一張表嗎?"},{"start":181.377,"end":193.69,"text":"就是說我看他的那個表他的表裡面除了剛剛我所講的就是說他的存貨的調整以外民間的消費政府的支出的這個部分"},{"start":199.861,"end":216.159,"text":"主宰 主宰我這樣好了啦 主宰其實我比較關心的是說他講的其中一個因素就是因為我們立法院刪減了這次的一個預算所以也是造成說我們成長動能的削弱的原因"},{"start":217.881,"end":226.227,"text":"根據我們的資料,我所掌握的,跟...總裁,我想請教總裁的,是,總裁我的意思就是說,他這樣的說法,他這樣的一個說法說經過刪減後,會影響整個我們政府未來的投資以及消費,而導致GDP的下降剛才你也提到,本月20號,央行要召開理事會"},{"start":245.76,"end":264.558,"text":"所以央行會有新的2025年就今年的GDP的預測所以這個如果在20號的理事會到時候會不會將三讀後的政府總預算的金額的結果也列為我們預測的因素之一是"},{"start":265.955,"end":286.53,"text":"我想剛剛我們如果看主席總署的這個表是沒有錯他也講到政府的支出的這個部分他是下修了0.08那存後這邊民間的投資也有下修那公營的也有下修0.01那這個是主要還有政府的消費也下修了0.01"},{"start":287.871,"end":292.155,"text":"所以未來你們在20號的央行的理事會你認為會考量這個因素嗎?因為我覺得他這個組織總書的說法是非常不正確的"},{"start":309.472,"end":330.057,"text":"因為今年總預算通過的數額是歷史新高兩兆九千兩百四十八億比去年增加了一千三百六十八億創歷史的新高你竟然講說會影響政府的投資及消費而導致GDP的下降"},{"start":331.937,"end":340.16,"text":"這個說法正確嗎?不過根據他的這個數據來看的話0.08加上0.01的0.09再加上0.01就將近是0.1啦他上一次是3.29嘛"},{"start":350.604,"end":377.727,"text":"所以他把他下修到0.15%他本身的政府的這個部分他就下修0.1%所以0.5%我猜我的重點不在這裡他一直講說是因為立法院刪減總預算造成他GDP要下修我說這樣的說法其實是不正確的我也希望說央行在20號的理事會你對於這個重新評估我們今年的GDP的下修我們會"},{"start":379.748,"end":397.467,"text":"第一個我們會再重新評估我們的但是你要把這個因素你要列入嗎這個根本是不成立的嘛因為這個數據呢這個數據呢他雖然就是說是就是說是在這裡沒關係啦這個我是表達我的意見是是是我想另外因為時間的關係我再請問你一下"},{"start":400.371,"end":418.012,"text":"因為在昨天的復議案的質詢中卓院長表示說台電千億撥補如果落空台電將被迫調電價所以我想請問如果說台電因為錯誤的能源政策而在不給補助的情況之下來調漲電價"},{"start":420.359,"end":435.884,"text":"那麼是否會造成萬物齊漲就通膨的一個壓力應該是不會就是說萬物齊漲也不會你是認為不會所以央行後續會有升息的壓力嗎因為就是說我們上一年我們的我們的預測是1.89"},{"start":438.685,"end":444.933,"text":"如果說我們考量到電價的調整還有其他的工用事業的匯率的調整我們大概也會接近2%"},{"start":453.402,"end":465.307,"text":"所以就是因為台電調漲電價會造成我們整個CPI的年增率會增加所以大概就會上漲到大概就會破2%左右你預期就2%左右不會再繼續往上嗎"},{"start":471.45,"end":492.805,"text":"應該如果說直接的直接的影響是這樣子那如果說他有說什麼通膨疫情的心理我再想這一次應該不會了我想我希望你的預測只是準的我們再看一下國外的情勢就是川普上任之後關於美國在新的經貿政策所帶來的影響"},{"start":493.826,"end":515.09,"text":"川普的經貿政策被我們公認為影響我國經濟的成長的重要變數包含台積電我們剛剛一直提到也已經確定要去赴美投資一千億美元所以央行目前有沒有制定哪些具體的因應策略以降低因應國際情勢的外部不確定性對我國經濟與匯率的一個影響"},{"start":522.532,"end":547.671,"text":"以及在全球經濟存在下行風險的情況之下未來是否有需要調整貨幣政策以確保我國經濟的穩定性還有台積電如果赴美的新投資是否會影響我國未來我們的GDP的成長對台灣經濟發展的前景會有何影響我想你現在不用用口頭回答我這幾個問題請你用書面來答覆我"},{"start":550.333,"end":576.023,"text":"因為我們針對這個央行房市管制的措施啊央行決定連續三次維持基準利率在2%不變嘛那也會推出新的房市的管制措施到今年2月底央行已經進行專案精檢總共170次嘛所以請問央行在進行7次的調整選擇信用管制的措施後"},{"start":577.223,"end":588.187,"text":"現在暫時沒有新的管制措施這是否意味說央行已經認為國內的房價以及房市的交易已經達到央行可以接受的平穩狀況"},{"start":591.603,"end":619.922,"text":"我們在報告裡面我們有談到就是說基本上呢我們第一個就是說疫情心理是有下來了第二個呢它的那個集中度是集中度就是說我們金融機構放款給這個不弄產的這個集中度呢慢慢的再下來了37點多現在下降下來另外呢就是說給無自用自宅的資源呢慢慢再上升了"},{"start":620.562,"end":639.734,"text":"這個有達到我們初步的一個效果但是我們現在目前我們有兩個方向第一個因為我們在去年八月的時候我們希望在他們在一年之內做這個資源的一個調整那這個我們每季每次都會我這樣問你最後的結論就是說未來因為現在你說已經達到平穩的效果"},{"start":644.838,"end":648.365,"text":"所以未來有沒有可能會有第八次的新聞管制措施我們滾動式檢討"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":924,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（11時25分）謝謝主席，我們請楊總裁。"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：林委員早。"],["林委員思銘：總裁早。本席今天就將全國民眾最關心的幾項國內外的議題，包含川普上台政府如何因應，還有烏俄戰爭仍然持續，這樣的國際情勢，我們臺灣應該如何面對，來向總裁就教。","根據央行在去年12月19日發布的經濟預測，去年的經濟成長率上修到4.25%，今年則預測大概是3.13%，同時，中研院經濟所也預測，今年的成長率大概是3.1%，而關於貨幣的調整，央行也已經連續三次維持基準率大概是在2%不變，我想請問：我們今年下修的原因是什麼？經濟成長率今年會下修的原因是什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們在3月20日會有另外一個forcast，但是我覺得主計總處下修的一個很重要的因素，是在於存貨的調整。"],["林委員思銘：存貨的調整？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，也就是說，民間的投資這個部分不像上一次所預期的那麼高，因為存貨調整本身就是屬於民間投資的部分。"],["林委員思銘：OK。我想這個或許是下修的原因之一，但是我告訴你，依據主計總處在2月26日發布國內經濟預測，表示是因為立法院刪減預算會削弱成長的動能，因此下修今年經濟成長率到3.14%，跟原先預測的數字相比，減少了大概0.15%，所以我想請教總裁，主計總處說調降GDP的理由是因為立法院刪減預算。您同意嗎？你覺得這個因素要考量下去，他這樣的講法成立嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我看他那個表裡面，除了剛剛我所講的，就是存貨的調整以外，政府支出的部分……"],["林委員思銘：總裁，這樣好了，其實我比較關心的是，他講的其中一個因素就是因為我們立法院這次刪減了預算，所以造成我們的成長動能削弱的原因……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，根據我們的資料，我所掌握的，也跟委員講的一樣，沒有錯……"],["林委員思銘：好，我想就教總裁的，我的意思是說，他這樣的一個說法，說經過刪減預算後，會影響我們政府未來的投資及消費，而導致GDP的下降。剛才你也提到，本月20日央行將要召開理事會，到時候央行會有新的2025年，也就是今年GDP的預測，所以在本月20日的理事會會不會將三讀後的政府總預算的結果也列為預測的因素之一？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。我們如果看主計總處的這個表，是沒有錯，他也講到政府支出這個部分是下修了0.08%，存貨這部分民間的投資也有下修，公營的也有下修0.01%，這個是主要的因素，還有政府的消費也下修了0.01%，這個是導致了經濟成長……"],["林委員思銘：是，總裁，這個我了解。我現在的意思是說，因為他一直強調是因為立法院刪減總預算的一個結果，所以未來你們在3月20日的央行理事會，您認為會考量這個因素嗎？因為我覺得主計總處的這個說法是非常不正確的，因為今年總預算通過的數額是歷史新高，2兆9,248億，比去年增加了1,368億，創歷史的新高，他竟然講說會影響政府的投資及消費而導致GDP的下降，這個說法正確嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過，根據他的這個數據來看的話，0.08加上0.01等於0.09，再加上0.01，就將近0.1，上一次是3.29，所以他下修了0.15，本身政府的這個部分，他就下修0.1，所以……"],["林委員思銘：是，總裁，但是我的重點不在這裡，我的意思是他一直講說是因為立法院刪減總預算造成GDP要下修，我說這樣的說法其實是不正確的。我也希望央行在20日的理事會重新評估今年GDP的下修。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們會。第一個，我們會再重新評估我們的……"],["林委員思銘：是啊，但是這個因素你要列入嗎？這個根本是不成立的嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：不，因為這個數據雖然就是說是在這裡……"],["林委員思銘：總裁，沒關係啦，我是表達我的意見……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，不過……"],["林委員思銘：另外，因為時間的關係，我再請問你一下，在昨天覆議案的質詢中，卓院長表示，台電千億撥補如果落空，台電將被迫調電價，所以我想請問，如果台電因為錯誤的能源政策，而在不給補助的情況之下來調漲電價，勢必會造成萬物齊漲，就有通膨的壓力嘛。"],["楊總裁金龍：應該是不會，就是萬物齊漲也不會啦。"],["林委員思銘：好，你是認為不會？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。我是認為不會。"],["林委員思銘：所以央行後續會有升息的壓力嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為我們上一年的預測是1.89，如果我們考量到電價的調整，還有其他的公用事業費率的調整，我們大概也會預測是接近2%。"],["林委員思銘：所以就是因為台電調漲電價會造成我們整個CPI的年增率會增加，所以大概就會上漲到破2%嘛？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，就會在2%左右。"],["林委員思銘：你預期就會在2%左右，不會再繼續往上嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：直接的影響是這樣子，如果說有什麼通膨預期的心理，我在想這一次應該不會，我想是不會……"],["林委員思銘：對，總裁，我希望你的預測值是準的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，當然啦，當然啦，我們希望不會啦。"],["林委員思銘：我們再來看一下國外的情勢，就是川普上任之後，關於美國新的經貿政策所帶來的影響，川普的經貿政策被我們公認為影響我國經濟成長的重要變數，包含台積電，我們剛才一直提到，也已經確定要赴美投資1,000億美元了，所以央行目前有沒有制定哪些具體的因應策略，以降低因應國際情勢的外部不確定性對我國經濟與匯率的影響？以及在全球經濟存在下行風險的情況之下，未來是否有需要調整貨幣政策，以確保我國經濟的穩定性？還有台積電如果赴美進行新投資，是否會影響我國未來GDP的成長？對臺灣經濟發展的前景會有何影響？你現在不用口頭回答我，這幾個問題請你用書面來答復。"],["楊總裁金龍：好。謝謝。"],["林委員思銘：另外，我們針對央行房市管制的措施，央行決定連續三次維持基準利率在2%不變，也會推出新的房市管制措施，到今年2月底，央行也已經進行專案金檢，總共170次。所以請問央行，在進行七次的調整選擇性信用管制的措施後，現在暫時沒有新的管制措施，這是否意味說央行已經認為國內的房價及房市的交易已經達到央行可以接受的平穩狀況？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們在報告裡面有談到，基本上，第一個就是預期心裡是有下來了，第二個，我們金融機構放款給不動產的集中度慢慢地在下來了，從三十七點多降下來了。另外，給無自用住宅的資源慢慢在上升了，這個有達到我們初步的……"],["林委員思銘：有平穩的效果。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。但是目前我們有兩個方向，第一個，因為在去年8月的時候，我們希望他們在一年之內做資源的調整，這個我們每季都會去……"],["林委員思銘：是，總裁，我問你最後的結論，因為現在你說已經達到平穩的效果，所以未來有沒有可能會有第八次的信用管制措施？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們滾動式檢討。"],["林委員思銘：滾動式檢討？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們滾動式檢討 。"],["林委員思銘：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林思銘委員的質詢。","下一位請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-2","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","黃珊珊","林思銘","李坤城","王世堅","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","邱志偉","陳冠廷","李柏毅"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00004"}}},{"id":"159120","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159120","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fc0e16084ad3be94e0aae3c1a04a00b1bff1cdb1affc83ff44ecdb07f450427e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"11:23:18 - 11:35:15","影片長度":"00:11:57","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【如遇加開院會本次會議取消，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:23:18+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:35:15+08:00","duration":717,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.98784375,"end":10.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.695968750000002,"end":13.007843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.167843750000003,"end":15.724718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.825968750000001,"end":16.129718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.08721875,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.11659375,"end":19.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.77471875,"end":23.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.090343750000002,"end":35.282843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.31221875,"end":38.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.674718750000004,"end":40.345343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.914718750000006,"end":44.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.399718750000005,"end":44.462843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.83409375,"end":52.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.86659375,"end":59.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.67534375,"end":63.329093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.98721875000001,"end":66.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.04159375,"end":68.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.85971875,"end":69.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.97784375,"end":70.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.39971875,"end":70.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.36159375,"end":80.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.96346875,"end":104.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.28034375,"end":108.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.36409375000001,"end":113.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.52784375,"end":116.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.34596875000001,"end":117.54846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.08846875,"end":125.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.54284375,"end":129.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.51284375,"end":132.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.12846875,"end":132.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.58409375000002,"end":138.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.26659375,"end":142.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.25346875,"end":147.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.78846875000002,"end":151.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.20971875,"end":153.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.91409375,"end":154.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.52159375000002,"end":155.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.50034375,"end":156.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.68159375000002,"end":157.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.01471875000001,"end":158.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.36471875,"end":166.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.68409375000002,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.73846875,"end":189.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.85784375,"end":203.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.45471875,"end":211.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.09909375,"end":212.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.21284375000002,"end":213.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.78659375,"end":214.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.79909375000003,"end":216.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.41909375,"end":220.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.39721875,"end":222.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.94971875000002,"end":224.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.09284375000001,"end":283.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.08846875,"end":281.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.81784375,"end":287.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.80034375,"end":289.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.02784375000005,"end":296.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.06471875,"end":299.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.22034375000004,"end":300.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.63784375,"end":305.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.04221875,"end":310.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.52659375,"end":314.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.63159375000004,"end":315.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.08284375,"end":317.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.51284375,"end":320.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.19596875,"end":322.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.68096875000003,"end":323.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.55409375,"end":333.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.78034375000004,"end":335.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.99534375,"end":337.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.51409375000003,"end":339.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.96096875,"end":348.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.36471875,"end":348.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.48284375000003,"end":358.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.11409375,"end":369.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.54284375000003,"end":372.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.57596875,"end":374.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.97659375,"end":376.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.64284375,"end":378.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.63846875,"end":387.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.62846875,"end":390.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.41284375000004,"end":392.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.59409375,"end":398.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.22596875000005,"end":408.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.19534375,"end":406.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.65909375,"end":414.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.20659375,"end":417.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.97409375,"end":431.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.28409375,"end":437.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.29596875000004,"end":437.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.34659375,"end":437.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.02159375,"end":439.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.01721875000004,"end":445.95284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.32409375000003,"end":453.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.17596875000004,"end":450.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.59721875,"end":454.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.38596875,"end":464.54909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.70096875,"end":474.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.10034375000004,"end":475.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.05784375,"end":480.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.76596875,"end":481.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.32284375,"end":485.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.30096875000004,"end":493.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.83159375,"end":494.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.62034375,"end":496.15596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.45971875000004,"end":499.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.39159375,"end":504.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.57659375000003,"end":510.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.10721875,"end":513.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.0434687500001,"end":514.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.54534375,"end":520.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.9622187500001,"end":525.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.54409375,"end":524.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.1809687500001,"end":525.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.3328437499999,"end":526.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.19346875,"end":528.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.22721875,"end":526.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.31534375,"end":529.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.90596875,"end":534.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.91784375,"end":540.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.1784687500001,"end":541.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.4778437500001,"end":543.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.7390937499999,"end":547.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.62471875,"end":550.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.97846875,"end":556.2478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.73721875,"end":559.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.97284375,"end":565.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.6303437500001,"end":571.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.4184687500001,"end":573.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.3715937500001,"end":581.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.7122187500001,"end":583.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.14221875,"end":587.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.5803437500001,"end":590.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.2803437499999,"end":591.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.14096875,"end":595.3303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.25846875,"end":599.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.35909375,"end":611.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.12096875,"end":612.8803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.7578437500001,"end":615.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.47909375,"end":616.8290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.5209687500001,"end":618.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.9553437500001,"end":619.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.54159375,"end":622.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.56221875,"end":636.2522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.4040937500001,"end":637.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.0578437500001,"end":639.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.96471875,"end":641.0615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.07846875,"end":641.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.93909375,"end":642.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.23846875,"end":643.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.47034375,"end":649.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.4440937500001,"end":656.5022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.6328437500001,"end":658.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.53971875,"end":660.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.8897187500002,"end":660.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.1428437500001,"end":661.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.37471875,"end":673.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.30534375,"end":675.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.22909375,"end":676.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.54534375,"end":683.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.02534375,"end":687.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.63659375,"end":690.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.60659375,"end":693.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.01534375,"end":703.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.95471875,"end":706.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.7053437500001,"end":712.4934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.1684687500001,"end":715.4128437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.95,"end":22.756,"text":"謝謝主席我請部長還有石署長好 請問邱部長跟石署長卓偉好好柏廉是我們一年看接近的人次到底多少"},{"start":25.157,"end":39.143,"text":"我看到很多data有的是說總人口數的20%有的講40%到底是我都不曉得確實的一年急診的人次是多少這個有統計嗎"},{"start":42.017,"end":66.186,"text":"我們查一下好了那第二個這個急診的問題因為你我們署長是長很接近的嘛那市長也很接近的所以這個急診的問題事實上是從我們第八對立委的時候就一直突顯出來所以不是現在才發生那為什麼今年會特別嚴重為什麼 署長"},{"start":72.966,"end":76.392,"text":"當然有很多的原因我們過去認為當然是不是"},{"start":81.178,"end":108.352,"text":"免疫負載以後的感染病比較多這當然是一部分那天氣的一個變化所以集中症的就是說中風心臟病或者慢性病的一個惡化這個也是其中之一那當然我們也了解到如果上上面的床數沒有足沒有夠的話當然上就上不去那這個部分也會變成在急診後床方面的一個"},{"start":109.829,"end":114.656,"text":"一個問題會呈現出來我想都是原因我們都慢慢在預防、在檢討"},{"start":118.194,"end":146.887,"text":"那急診要做分級醫療要做什麼我覺得一直推都推不成功的原因最主要是我們來看急診的病人我們分1、2、3、4、5級嘛1級、2級是最嚴重3級是普通4級、5級是可以等待那現在的問題是我們人口老化那小孩子又都在多位區那老人家都在鄉下比較多"},{"start":147.847,"end":174.974,"text":"那所以這些老人到急診他可能三幾個來但是他會好轉的稍微半但是會惡化的也一半所以連醫生也沒辦法掌握這個病人是會好轉還是惡化尤其像現在呼吸道感染如果又病加細菌感染又是病毒一個晚上就白掉了整個肺部我們在急診看到就是這樣"},{"start":175.934,"end":187.756,"text":"所以,你也不敢強制說哇,你剛才,你剛才急診,你剛才,你剛才問診看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,看,"},{"start":204.502,"end":212.174,"text":"台灣會做這個分級醫療做不成功很難成功這個就是最大的問題普頓你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":214.864,"end":242.674,"text":"我感覺稍微講一下就有得益了但是我們這個可以改善啦譬如說我們如果能夠不要生小病小病能夠馬上得到診斷就不會每次都已經到很嚴重才到急診嘛所以我們現在的努力整個說實在的健康台灣現在很重視從營養、運動、生活型態的一個改變大家看比較健康的"},{"start":243.474,"end":250.801,"text":"第二你第一算要有一個全民的健康健全各種服務那這些基層醫療大家來做要讓百合民眾來信任我們的基層的診所我想這個我們早期過去是說醫師公會、理事長也是對基層醫療非常的重視"},{"start":261.71,"end":286.275,"text":"跟加強這是一直大家在努力的民眾可以有信心我也不能強迫說民眾要有信心而是我們要提出我們可以做哪些事情讓民眾有信心他自然就不會跑去我比較心想也不要用硬性的讓民眾能夠有信心這不會是最重要的我們的家屬跟病人自己會選擇"},{"start":287.995,"end":300.714,"text":"自己會虛擬的分類他會怎麼樣他不敢去哪裡他會趕快跑大醫院跑大醫院是最他最大的安心嘛所以去那邊擠去那邊塞你也安心"},{"start":301.827,"end":317.478,"text":"所以現在這撒不走,這也是公派處,也是好處啊你看日本做分子醫療,做得很好,做得下癮好,那就是出事了一個救護車撒的,在那邊撞,在那邊撞,沒人要收日本就是這樣,真的這樣啊,所以像日本這樣好,我也不知道"},{"start":322.865,"end":333.74,"text":"所以藝人在那裡出事我講那裡就藝人那種case在民東就不會出事了不要說對去到我那裡我一口沒了就整起來了"},{"start":334.827,"end":358.349,"text":"真的生氣了急診室就在生啊所以跟大家報告我們台灣這個醫療的可敬性跟高水平又廣覆蓋當然問題一大堆大家從早上罵到現在但是我覺得我們就是那麼棒嘛我們就這麼好啊保健你這麼好啊署長你也這麼好啊大家拚到死啊有限的資源做那麼多事我是覺得我要跟你們肯定啦"},{"start":359.891,"end":376.245,"text":"事實上真的大家都盡心盡力講一些情緒話有什麼了不起呢大家也有情緒所以我覺得這個都可以理解大家要同理心這個問題也從馬英九時代到蔡英文時代到現在"},{"start":377.646,"end":395.023,"text":"都一樣啊但是現在如果可以越改善當然是越好啦所以我們大家不要講意識形態啦這個醫療跟意識形態一點關係都沒有啦所以普通 你會看到什麼啊再來就是 那個福利的大家現在站一腳就三十幾萬人在線上的才十幾萬人"},{"start":399.298,"end":416.8,"text":"有一大堆是回家帶小孩照顧公婆他是可以出來做part-time的那這一塊剛剛你有講到說可以把他recall回來這在美國就很多啦美國就很多就是他你叫他做全職他沒辦法"},{"start":418.041,"end":438.49,"text":"但是這些人他們就組一個公司也好啦一個是合作社也好啊你就Apply啊他就來給你part-time來做三點鐘四點鐘這在美國很平常的啊我們這裡這塊這一塊真的要好好的來應用啦不然這些人都是人力浪費啊是寶丁你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":440.13,"end":454.535,"text":"我們在12項的護理人力裡面第10項就是多元化彈性護理自治職業那國防會也對這一點也要做一點幫助這真的像我們太太過去都照顧小孩現在小孩比較不要理他他就開始恢復去樂團拉琴並不理我這樣就對了"},{"start":465.199,"end":485.06,"text":"所以但是他能夠這些回流到護理在化為他過去的護理的專業我覺得是一個很珍貴我跟部長報告我們屏東縣的個衛生所的護理人員退休我們都趁回來做什麼做長照、做照覆"},{"start":486.661,"end":513.308,"text":"他65歲,我60歲,拿下來身強體壯,你讓他去拉琴他也沒有婦女,他也沒有婦女這就沒意義了所以,這些人就回來了衛生所的主任65歲退休,我就把他請回來當公衛做什麼幾乎只要來,我就拼所以我要拼我們的衛生所主任退休下來我現在已經解決了,很好啊"},{"start":515.609,"end":541.635,"text":"有的到七八十歲還很強啊所以現在的人沒有退休年齡嘛所以這個都是人力的運用啦這個我們會努力的這個你們都沒有看到好那最後一分鐘給我我要講一下我們自己的事情這個要感謝因為我們從去年我們安排法人會休除"},{"start":542.675,"end":558.852,"text":"還在往後胎頭頭頭傷亡慘重那我們從去年10月3號到現在我今天是第二次發生我從來不講話的那都默默的在做該怎麼樣"},{"start":561.004,"end":583.151,"text":"民事的補償、賠償都在完善那所有的轉出去的病人回來只要跟我們要求我全部都給他給我我沒說過話從來沒有在媒體上講過任何一句負面的話我們都一直在做我們10月3號輝學署訪台10月4號我們就在做緊急診療館這樣"},{"start":588.633,"end":599.17,"text":"我們是醫護人員這麼拼然後我們的護理人員從六個多月來離職的不到十個"},{"start":600.407,"end":622.069,"text":"不到10個我沒有給他輔導到法人 其他的長照什麼 朝朝安泰等等我們是盡心盡 現在有好戶價的那這些偏鄉的醫護人員 當然是我們要保護啊我們是袋子袋心 請他休假等等或者是平常沒有休假的就給他補休"},{"start":623.65,"end":640.705,"text":"做到非常非常完善那我們也很認真在做很感謝我們衛福部我們醫事師我們健保署還有我們屏東縣政府都給我們一直的幫忙輔導所以我在這邊要跟大家致謝那我們希望"},{"start":642.026,"end":656.262,"text":"我們的員工能夠呵護他們鼓勵他們讓他們那邊繼續來替我們的屏南地區重度責任醫院我們的角色我們是努力在扮演那昨天"},{"start":657.663,"end":683.184,"text":"我們在這邊投票醫事師 醫策會還是做重症的考核我也很感謝所以在這裡補充再次的致謝希望大家一起來跟我們的員工跟我們的醫護人員大家一起呵護 一起鼓勵不要不要沒有意義啦我從來不講過一句負面的話所以我在這裡要跟"},{"start":684.105,"end":712.011,"text":"部長在一次的報告那我們你看我們這個這個上一張這個排碼排案榜我不曉得要怎麼排的啦這個是newsweek他們排的我們屏東縣還是我們安泰的員工的努力我們是台灣排32名的耶這不是我白說的耶 屏東只有這間而已所以不要亂說啦也不要亂說啦我是覺得大家一起來啦感謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":713.24,"end":713.944,"text":"好 謝謝委員 謝謝政務委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":716,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（11時23分）謝謝主席，我請部長還有石署長。"],["主席：請邱部長跟石署長。"],["邱部長泰源：召委好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，我們一年看急診的人次到底有多少？我看到很多data，有的說是總人口數的20%，有的講40%，到底是多少？我都不曉得確實一年急診的人次是多少？"],["邱部長泰源：這個有統計嗎？"],["石署長崇良：有，稍等一下，我們查一下。"],["邱部長泰源：我們查一下。"],["蘇委員清泉：第二個，關於急診的問題，因為署長是作急診的，司長也是作急診的，急診的問題事實上從第八屆立委的時候就一直突顯出來，不是現在才發生，為什麼今年會特別嚴重？為什麼？"],["邱部長泰源：有很多原因，我們過去認為是不是免疫負債以後的感染病比較多，這當然是一部分。天氣的變化，導致急重症包括中風、心臟病或者慢性病的惡化，也是其中之一。我們也了解到如果上面的床數沒有足夠，當然就上不去嘛，這也會變成在急診候床的問題呈現出來。這些原因，我們方方面面都在預防、檢討。"],["蘇委員清泉：急診要作分級醫療，我覺得一直推都不成功的原因，最主要是來看急診的病人分為一、二、三、四、五級。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：一級、二級是最嚴重，三級的普通，四級、五級的可以等待。現在的問題是我們人口老化，小孩子又都在都會區，老人家在鄉下比較多。這些老人到急診，有可能三級就來，但是會好轉的差不多一半，會惡化的也占一半，連醫生也沒辦法掌握病人會好轉還是惡化。尤其現在呼吸道感染，如果又併發細菌感染或感染病毒，整個肺部一個晚上就白掉了，我們在急診看到的就是這樣。所以你也不敢強制讓他們先到門診或診所，看完如果情況嚴重再來醫院或急診，沒有人敢說這種話啦，連我也不敢跟人家這樣講。所以大家都塞在急診，把病人送到急診來，家屬才安心，外勞也安心，因為送到醫院來就是醫院的事了。把人送到安泰醫院、臺大的急診室，就是你家的事了，換成是你的事了。所以臺灣的分級醫療做不成功，很難成功，這就是最大的問題。部長，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["邱部長泰源：我覺得召委說得很有道理，但是我們可以改善這些情況，比如說我們如果能夠不要生小病或生小病能夠馬上得到診斷，就不會每次都已經很嚴重才到急診。所以我們現在努力，說實在的，現在很重視健康臺灣，從營養、運動、生活型態的改變，大家活得比較健康。","第二，第一線有全民健檢等各種服務，基層醫療大家一起來做，拜託民眾信任基層的診所。我想召委過去擔任醫師公會理事長的時候，也對基層醫療非常的重視跟加強，這是大家一直在努力的。如果可以給民眾信心，我們也不能強迫民眾要有信心，而是要提出我們可以做哪些事情，讓民眾有信心，他自然就不會跑去急診，我比較傾向不要用硬性的啦！讓民眾能夠有信心最重要。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們的家屬跟病人自己會選擇，自己會虛擬的分類，他會怎麼樣，他不敢去哪裡，他會趕快跑大醫院，跑大醫院是他最大的安心嘛，去那邊擠、去那邊塞，他也安心，所以現在這個推不動，這是壞處也是好處。你看日本做分級醫療做得那麼好，做到那樣好，還是出事。病患送進救護車就到處跑，沒人要收，日本就是這樣，現在就是這樣，像日本這樣好嗎？我也不知道，所以藝人在那裡出事，如果那種case在屏東就不會出事了，不要說哪裡，到我們那裡，葉克膜就裝上去了，真的裝上去，急診室就會裝了。所以跟大家報告，我們臺灣醫療的可近性跟高水平又廣覆蓋，雖然問題一大堆，大家從早上罵到現在，但是我覺得我們就是那麼棒嘛！我們就是這麼好啊！部長這麼好，署長也這麼好啊！大家都很拚命，有限的資源做那麼多事，我是覺得我要給你們肯定啦！事實上真的大家都盡心盡力，說一些情緒話有什麼了不起呢？大家也有情緒，所以我覺得這個都可以理解，大家要有同理心。這個問題從馬英九時代到蔡英文時代，到現在都一樣啊！但是現在如果可以改善當然是越好，所以我們大家不要講意識形態，這個醫療跟意識形態一點關係都沒有。部長，你的看法是什麼？","再來就是護理的部分，現在拿執照的有三十多萬人，在線上的才十幾萬人，有一大堆是回家帶小孩、照顧公婆，他是可以出來做part time的，這一塊剛剛你有講到說可以把他recall回來，這在美國就有很多，美國很多就是你叫他做全職沒辦法，但是這些人就組一個公司也好、一個合作社也好，你給他apply，他就來做part time3小時、4小時，這在美國是很平常的，這一塊我們真的要好好的來運用，不然這些人就是人力浪費。部長，你覺得怎樣？"],["邱部長泰源：我們在12項的護理人力裡面，第10項就是多元化彈性，護理自主執業，國發會對這一點也要做一點幫助，像我太太過去都照顧小孩，現在小孩比較不愛理她，她就開始恢復去樂團拉琴也沒有理我，所以這些人力能夠回流到護理，再發揮他過去的護理專業，我覺得這是很珍貴的。"],["蘇委員清泉：我跟部長報告，我們屏東縣各衛生所的護理人員退休，我都請他們回來做長照、做照護。她65歲、60歲退下來，還身強體壯，你卻讓她去拉琴，這就沒意義了，對不對？"],["邱部長泰源：她不會護理啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：所以讓這些人都回來，衛生所的主任65歲退休，我都把他請回來做公衛，幾乎只要來我就聘。所以屏東縣衛生所主任退休下來的，現在已經有很多位了，很好啊！有的到七、八十歲還很強，所以現在的人沒有退休年齡嘛！這個都是人力的運用。"],["邱部長泰源：是，這個我們會努力。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個你們都沒有看到。好，最後一分鐘給我，我要講一下我們自己的事情，這個要感謝。去年我們安泰法人發生火災又遭逢颱風，一塌糊塗，傷亡慘重。我們從去年10月3號到現在，我今天是第二次發聲，我從來不講話的，都默默的在做，民事的補償、賠償都完善，所有轉出去的病人回來，只要跟我們要求，我全部都讓他們圓滿。我沒說過半句話，從來沒有在媒體上講過任何一句負面的話，我們都一直在做。我們10月3號發生火災、颱風，10月4號我們就在做緊急心導管，我們的醫護人員這麼拼，然後我們的護理人員這6個多月來，離職的不到10個，我們又把他輔導到法人或其他的長照等等。我們是盡心盡力在呵護這些人，這些偏鄉的醫護人員當然是我們要保護的，我們是帶職帶薪請他休假等等，或者是平常沒有休假，全部給他補休，做到非常非常完善。我們很認真在做，很感謝衛福部、醫事司、健保署，還有屏東縣政府，都一直給我們幫忙輔導，所以我在這邊要跟大家致謝。我們希望能夠呵護我們的員工，鼓勵他們，讓他們能繼續替屏南地區的重度責任醫院扮演好我們的角色，我們是努力在扮演。","昨天我們在這邊投票，醫事司、醫策會還去做重症的考核，我也很感謝，所以在這裡向部長再次的致謝，希望大家一起來給我們的員工給我們的醫護人員呵護，大家一起鼓勵，不要胡亂罵，那沒有意義。我也從來不講一句負面的話，所以我在這裡要跟部長再一次報告，你看這個排行榜，我不曉得怎麼排的，這個是Newsweek他們排的，屏東縣還是我們安泰員工的努力，我們是臺灣排第32名的，這不是亂講的，屏東縣只有這間而已，所以沒那麼差，也不要亂罵。我是覺得大家一起來，感謝各位，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員，謝謝召委。"],["主席：好，謝謝蘇清泉委員。","我們請下一位王正旭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","羅智強","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","劉建國","陳培瑜","楊曜","王義川"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00005"}}},{"id":"159119","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159119","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f8be299c087a77ef10aae3c1a04a00b1bff1cdb1affc83ff4c7ca98e9358032305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:08:57 - 11:23:05","影片長度":"00:14:08","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【如遇加開院會本次會議取消，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:08:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:23:05+08:00","duration":848,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":4.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.2115937500000005,"end":7.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.759093750000002,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.383468750000002,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.800968750000003,"end":15.235343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.52221875,"end":17.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.184093750000002,"end":19.605968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.84221875,"end":52.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.15346875,"end":81.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.48659375000001,"end":105.09471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.30971875,"end":109.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.97159375000001,"end":110.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.73096875,"end":114.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.22846875,"end":115.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.77659375,"end":116.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.06346875000001,"end":118.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.36284375000001,"end":118.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.35409375,"end":121.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.00784375,"end":123.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.02471875,"end":123.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.65659375000001,"end":129.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.16659375,"end":152.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.01721875,"end":142.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.90159375000002,"end":152.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.93534375000002,"end":152.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.98596875,"end":154.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.15034375000002,"end":156.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.82096875000002,"end":157.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.03159375,"end":186.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.59034375000002,"end":173.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.41096875000002,"end":187.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.96784375000001,"end":199.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.46471875,"end":194.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.06721875000002,"end":200.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.63659375,"end":203.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.96534375000002,"end":208.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.16284375,"end":212.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.38221875000002,"end":209.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.00221875000003,"end":224.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.57159375,"end":212.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.56971875000002,"end":230.40846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.50971875000002,"end":231.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.53909375,"end":233.36159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.51346875000002,"end":237.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.09909375,"end":256.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.93596875000003,"end":258.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.16346875,"end":264.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.71534375000005,"end":266.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.55471875,"end":269.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.85846875000004,"end":267.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.84096875,"end":290.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.73346875000004,"end":284.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.59721875,"end":299.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.06846875,"end":320.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.68534375,"end":322.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.80346875000004,"end":322.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.84971875,"end":324.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.16159375,"end":347.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.77159375,"end":336.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.83721875000003,"end":351.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.79034375000003,"end":357.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.42659375,"end":357.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.79784375,"end":374.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.10346875000005,"end":381.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.06846875,"end":385.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.47346875000005,"end":383.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.65846875,"end":393.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.84409375,"end":387.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.87659375000004,"end":400.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.58846875,"end":418.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.41034375000004,"end":407.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.22846875000005,"end":411.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.97409375,"end":418.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.78409375,"end":427.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.58846875,"end":432.13221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.82034375,"end":430.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.13221875000005,"end":432.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.57096875,"end":434.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.44846875,"end":437.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.41034375000004,"end":434.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.30846875000003,"end":443.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.39284375000005,"end":441.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.13471875000005,"end":445.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.53096875000006,"end":446.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.20596875,"end":447.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.92721875,"end":451.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.36534375,"end":453.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.49596875000003,"end":482.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.54659375000006,"end":453.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.94284375,"end":485.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.47409375,"end":489.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.96284375000005,"end":525.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.04159375,"end":564.9890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.73159375,"end":596.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.73409375,"end":577.4428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.92784375,"end":579.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.5265937500001,"end":581.9990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.7478437500001,"end":603.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.10534375,"end":608.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.5265937500001,"end":610.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.31534375,"end":710.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.74971875,"end":615.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.7490937499999,"end":616.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.1909687500001,"end":623.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.82784375,"end":625.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.4834687499999,"end":642.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.9809687500001,"end":644.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.48721875,"end":644.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":710.1984687500001,"end":710.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.2322187500001,"end":731.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.9509687500001,"end":728.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.24596875,"end":730.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.07284375,"end":745.7878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.2778437500001,"end":742.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.99034375,"end":746.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.40784375,"end":760.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.65471875,"end":766.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":765.2278437500001,"end":765.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.4597187500001,"end":810.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":773.12534375,"end":773.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":774.00284375,"end":774.0703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":778.1540937500001,"end":778.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":786.5747187500001,"end":787.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":788.22846875,"end":788.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":797.9822187500001,"end":798.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":801.5090937500001,"end":801.8803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":808.02284375,"end":808.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":810.8915937500001,"end":819.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":814.4015937500001,"end":814.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":819.8015937500002,"end":833.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":833.48721875,"end":846.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":834.2465937500001,"end":834.9890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":836.96346875,"end":837.4697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":841.63784375,"end":841.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":843.74721875,"end":845.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":845.7722187500001,"end":845.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":845.83971875,"end":845.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.4890937500002,"end":848.97846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.434,"end":7.239,"text":"謝謝主席已經開始了好 謝謝 請部長好 請我們邱部長"},{"start":21.788,"end":39.797,"text":"在前一陣子可能在二月那時候其實我也接到很多基層醫療就是民眾到醫院然後在急診那邊等非常的久或者是這個在急診然後要進到病房那也等非常久等了很多天"},{"start":41.678,"end":64.543,"text":"這個時候我們就會覺得說其實我們台灣就是一直會覺得說台灣的這個醫療做得很好那為什麼在這一兩年當中大家會覺得好像整個有一些狀況那我們也看到就是說在去年的時候我們去年7月我們也有一個就是護理人力的政策準備中長程的計畫"},{"start":65.763,"end":79.569,"text":"那這個計畫下來之後其實有一些護理人員覺得蠻開心那有的人會有一些抱怨也有一些反彈那我們也看到就是說原本你們今年又編列了這個47億"},{"start":81.89,"end":108.908,"text":"就不分醫院層級然後病房類別擴大給負啦那這個部分我原本一直認為就是說應該是從1月份應該是從1月份就會開始可是好像到現在這些護理人員好像也也還沒有收到這樣的一個給付那我想請教部長這個到底是怎麼回事報告委員我想預算程序如果完成"},{"start":110.782,"end":114.205,"text":"我們就要趕快立即發來現在已經是三月份了因為現在整個預算程序要立好那你們什麼時候提出解凍整個會計程"},{"start":131.375,"end":146.349,"text":"現在呼籲嘛可能要看整個settle down 看預算 預算有多少當然要解凍的就盡量來解凍 請大家幫忙那有些可能被刪的各方面"},{"start":147.029,"end":170.198,"text":"我們做整體一旦確定以後我們追溯到1月馬上來發是所以大家放心啦當然啊當然你從從1月份原本這個從1月份到現在3月了這個會讓很多護理人員會覺得說那我們衛福部就嘴巴說說而已啊實際上也沒有拿到啊"},{"start":171.498,"end":186.473,"text":"我是認為就是說部長針對這一部分如果說需要委員會這邊來協助或者是你們還需要提出這個譬如說可以有一部分可以解凍的話那是不是趕快來進行這樣的一個程序"},{"start":188.081,"end":200.299,"text":"是 解凍是一回事 感謝委員會幫忙那這是整個會計程序 我剛剛有報告過嘛你整個國家總預算的確定以後才會動啊"},{"start":202.528,"end":230.99,"text":"所以我們也希望能夠趕快有確定那昨天也才做一個預算呼籲的處理而已所以部長就是說我們現在為什麼基層醫療院所會有這樣的一個問題其實有很多會覺得說可能護理人力的不足然後有的是關床就是說關床那這個是最大的原因嗎就是說護理人力不足然後關床"},{"start":231.61,"end":255.775,"text":"然後造成可能急診要進到病房就是大塞車這個是最主要的原因嗎當然整個醫療環境都有影響譬如說我們在分級分流有沒有落實那才不會增加急診不必要的壓力人力所以這個的確是未來長期要去要去努力的那個"},{"start":260.097,"end":268.621,"text":"那護理人力的一個職場的環境跟護理人力的不足就是我們大家都知道的事情而且一直在努力"},{"start":270.959,"end":297.365,"text":"需要的人更多但是我們在12項的一個策略努力之下的確在去年的12頁到去年的1頁其實我們也增加了3000多位的婦女同仁雖然最近看起來聽說好像有比較多離子因為最近過年後一般都是離子的一個巔峰等開學以後就是說畢業以後又是一個進來的一個這樣"},{"start":300.259,"end":324.434,"text":"加減起來總是去年也多了3800個但是真的還不夠不但人數我們要加強人數加強我們在互併比的達標會更快我們的工作同仁的壓力也會工作的負荷也會比較輕所以怎麼樣去加強護理人類的留任或者引進是非常重要的課題"},{"start":325.216,"end":347.444,"text":"沒錯那部長我想請教就是說我們一直在提到除了讓所有的這個護理人員可能有這個津貼之外那怎麼樣讓這個分級醫療的這個部分那我想請教部長就目前你認為我們的這個分級醫療做得如何"},{"start":349.752,"end":366.389,"text":"分級醫療其實從民國76年開始我們在做醫療網的時候就是分級醫療那後來當然因為醫院一直蓋所以醫院的立場會覺得分級醫療他們比較不那麼努力在推行是"},{"start":366.809,"end":387.195,"text":"那加上我們的民眾還是比較於傾向使用大醫院好像比較安心部長你們要怎麼去讓民眾更了解就是說要有分級醫療的這樣的一個觀念重病或者是有時候也不能用強迫因為一定要讓民眾說我去看基層醫療點頭比較安心點頭得到很好的照顧"},{"start":394.557,"end":417.525,"text":"我去醫學中心等很久很難掛號等很久看一看就說你這個可能不是我的科要掛另外一科你又要等兩個禮拜這樣真的會比較對病人是情何以堪可是如果你在你的社區就有舌悉的診所或最好是有建立關係的一個家庭醫師製作"},{"start":418.925,"end":437.057,"text":"那你隨時任何問題包括打電話都可以我們現在有社區醫療群社區醫療群就是有一群家庭醫師24小時你有什麼事情只要打個電話一定幫你做處理大家要善用所以你覺得目前分級醫療做得如何"},{"start":440.646,"end":450.602,"text":"一定要大大的加強所以是不滿意從我的角度我是不滿意那如果不滿意的話要怎麼如何加強"},{"start":452.621,"end":480.4,"text":"你一方面宣導嘛另外一方面我也知道就是說我們這個衛福部期望就是醫學中心下轉可能就是說病情穩定的這個慢性病人到基層診所可是我們也看到就是說今年的這個基層的這個總額就是已經確定這個總額這個總預算了嘛那如果說要診所收治更多的這個病人那勢必應該會稀釋掉這個點子"},{"start":483.002,"end":496.656,"text":"好這個點子如果更多病人進來嗎基層診所更多病人進來那可能這個點子就會被稀釋掉那這樣子的話你又要如何去確保就是說這個基層診所是能夠接住病人的所以我"},{"start":497.957,"end":524.387,"text":"覺得就是說部長可能針對這一部分我們又要希望就是說醫學中心這個可能就是做急重難函症的這些病患那希望這個比較輕症可能就到基層醫療院所去那怎麼樣去讓這個分級做得更徹底分級醫療做得更徹底我覺得這個應該也是我們目前要去做的一個課題"},{"start":526.069,"end":541.534,"text":"感謝委員這個非常宏觀的來分析我們整個未來應該要走的走向那我們所有的政策都盡量讓民眾很自然的就變成分級的醫療第一個我們讓民眾有他信心的家庭醫師"},{"start":542.714,"end":564.492,"text":"第二個我們也提高在集中症大醫院裡面集中症的給護我想這個部分在那個實施廠的努力之下也都有很好的成果那今年是一個非常好的機會來實行分級醫療因為今年在政府的幫忙之下以及大家努力之下我們今年的總額是"},{"start":566.254,"end":589.081,"text":"提升很多 單單健保的總額就提升500多億當然這裡面也有蠻多部分會在基層所以基層的醫療密集度這個部分的經費會比較多也就是說不怕接病人其實今年是一個很好的機會所以今年如果能夠利用這個錢比較就是說經費比較多的情況之下總共用在健保的700多億包括我們"},{"start":590.641,"end":600.507,"text":"讓基層醫療能夠多做一些預防保健的工作病人下來給他前人的一個照顧然後應該幾戶的譬如說我們的政府也讓成縣"},{"start":604.158,"end":624.298,"text":"可能二十年來沒有增加大家都陪在立場做的這次要加倍幾乎所以你所講的如果說今年預算比往年還多的話我覺得有一些政策我覺得應該要趕快去做而且是要積極的去推動"},{"start":624.938,"end":643.459,"text":"比如說分級醫療的這個部分如果往年做的不是那麼好的話那是不是你覺得說預算有增加那如何鼓勵基層醫療院所或者是這個醫學中心下轉這個可能慢性病的這個患者或是比較輕症的患者下轉我覺得應該也要有一些誘因"},{"start":644.881,"end":670.304,"text":"一方面也要讓所有的這個民眾知道就是我大病可能我這個急症或這個大病可能就到這個醫學中心那其他感冒一般的這個不是那麼嚴重的話可能就到診所或者到地區醫院區醫院就可以了我覺得這個應該也要再再去落實啦要不然我覺得每一年尤其是在過年前後每一次看到可能就"},{"start":671.746,"end":689.247,"text":"就是醫院可能擠爆一方面可能也當時可能這個時候就是流感或者是像今年的話也許是流感或者是諾蘿病毒那也會造成整個這個醫院可能人力不足那怎樣好讓這個大醫院的部分醫學中心這個"},{"start":691.169,"end":708.858,"text":"能夠專心在他們的這個急重難喊症那其他比較輕症或者是比較慢性病的話可能就下轉到其他醫院我覺得這個應該也是我們衛福部如果說今年你覺得預算有比較餘裕的話我覺得應該要有一些誘因然後趕快把這個分級醫療趕快落實"},{"start":710.279,"end":724.367,"text":"好,非常感謝,真的很敬佩我們的委員,對這整個醫療體系的了解跟左右的見解這就是我們今年會努力去做的方向那我們也一定努力讓我們明年不要再發生"},{"start":725.387,"end":745.349,"text":"那個急診太辛苦的一個情況分級醫療今天是一個大好的時機部長最後一個問題就是說之前卓院長有在這個這個巡打的時候有特別提到就是說三班互併比目前還是以獎勵為主那我想請教一下部長你的意見是怎樣"},{"start":747.839,"end":772.551,"text":"我想這個十二項政策是一直聯繫的政策那目前我如果站在醫療的立場那個當然就是希望說我護理人力能夠充足充足我當然就希望讓他達到哪一個醫院長不希望達到護病比但是不能因為人力不足然後又要求到某些制度而讓床沒辦法開"},{"start":774.052,"end":793.211,"text":"我想這個部分的中間永遠一個政策是要他利弊得失共同坐下來談我們衛福部一定跟醫院來針對這個部分當然要跟護理界一直來溝通那我相信至少我們在三班負面筆的努力之下我們在醫學中心已經從36%的"},{"start":794.973,"end":819.347,"text":"三班都達到的已經變成59%區議院從26%已經變成49%在地區議院已經從83%達標 三個都達到94%所以我們獎勵其實也是一個讓大家可以做得到的一個方向那將來當更成熟 我們人力更多的時候我想就自然水到其層"},{"start":820.187,"end":846.146,"text":"好 謝謝我們希望就是說不要再看到就是說這個醫療機構可能整個那個病患可能就全部都塞在急診室我覺得這個是我們不希望看到的啦對 我們一定從整個醫療體系的改變區域的防守或者是分級分流這個部分也要來努力好 謝謝委員的指教 謝謝好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":669,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時9分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。前一陣子可能在2月那時候，我接到很多基層民眾反映，到醫院急診等非常久，或者在急診要進到病房也等非常久，等了很多天。其實臺灣的醫療一直做得很好，這個時候我們就會覺得為什麼在這一、兩年當中好像有一些狀況。","我們看到去年7月有推出護理人力政策整備中長程計畫，這個計畫下來之後，有一些護理人員覺得蠻開心，有人會有一些抱怨，也有一些反彈。我們也看到原本你們今年編列了47億元，不分醫院層級、病房類別擴大給付。關於這個部分，我原本一直認為應該是從1月份就會開始，可是到現在護理人員好像還沒有收到這個給付。我想請教部長，這到底是怎麼回事？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，我想預算程序如果完成，我們就會趕快立即發出，也會追溯到1月。"],["黃委員秀芳：現在已經是3月份了，已經3月中了。"],["邱部長泰源：因為現在整個預算程序在……"],["黃委員秀芳：好，那你們什麼時候提出解凍？"],["邱部長泰源：整個會計程序，現在在覆議中，可能要看整個settle down之後預算有多少，當然要解凍的就盡量解凍，請大家幫忙。有些可能被刪，我們做整理。一旦確定以後，我們追溯到1月，馬上來發，請大家放心。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然啊，從原本1月份要發，到現在3月了，這會讓很多護理人員覺得衛福部就嘴巴說說而已，實際上也沒有拿到啊。我是認為，針對這一部分，部長如果需要委員會這邊來協助，或者是你們還需要提出有一部分可以解凍的話，是不是趕快來進行這樣的程序？"],["邱部長泰源：是，解凍是一回事，感謝委員會幫忙。這是整個會計程序，我剛剛有報告過，整個國家總預算確定以後才可以動，所以我們也希望能夠趕快確定，昨天也才作預算覆議的處理而已。"],["黃委員秀芳：是、是。所以部長，現在為什麼基層醫療院所會有這樣的問題，其實很可能是護理人力的不足，有的是關床，這是最大的原因嗎？就是護理人力不足然後關床，造成急診要進到病房大塞車，這是最主要的原因嗎？"],["邱部長泰源：當然整個醫療環境都有影響，比如說我們在分級分流有沒有落實，才不會增加急診不必要的壓力、人力，這的確是未來長期要去努力的。護理人力的職場環境跟護理人力不足是我們大家都知道的事情，而且一直在努力。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["邱部長泰源：其實需要的人更多，但是我們在12項策略努力之下，的確在去年1月到12月也增加了三千多位的護理同仁。雖然最近聽說好像有比較多人離職，因為過年後一般都是離職的巔峰，等開學以後，學生畢業後又會錄取進來，這樣加減起來，去年總數多了三千八百多人，但是真的還不夠。不但人數要加強，在人數加強後，護病比的達標會更快，我們工作同仁的壓力、工作負荷也會比較輕。所以怎麼樣加強護理人力的留任或引進，是非常重要的課題。"],["黃委員秀芳：沒錯！部長，我們一直提到除了讓所有護理人員有津貼之外，我想請教部長，目前你認為我們的分級醫療做得如何？"],["邱部長泰源：其實從民國76年開始，我們在做醫療網的時候就是分級醫療，後來當然因為醫院一直蓋，以醫院的立場，會覺得他們比較不是那麼努力在推行分級醫療；加上民眾還是比較傾向使用大醫院，好像比較安心。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，部長你們要怎麼讓民眾更了解，要有分級醫療的觀念？"],["邱部長泰源：這個有時候也不能用強迫的。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然不是強迫的。"],["邱部長泰源：一定要讓民眾覺得我去看基層醫療院所，反而可以比較安心，得到很好的照顧，而不是去醫學中心等很久，很難掛號，醫生看一看，結果說你這個可能不是我的科，要掛另外一科，你又要等二個禮拜，這樣對病人來說真的情何以堪。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["邱部長泰源：可是如果你在你的社區就有熟悉的診所，最好是有建立關係的家庭醫師制度，你隨時有任何問題，包括打電話都可以。我們現在有社區醫療群，就是有一群家庭醫師24小時待命，如果你有什麼事情，只要打個電話，一定幫你處理，大家要善用啊！"],["黃委員秀芳：是，好。所以你覺得目前分級醫療做得如何？我是想要知道你認為目前……"],["邱部長泰源：一定要大大的加強、大大的加強！"],["黃委員秀芳：要大大的加強，所以是不滿意？"],["邱部長泰源：從我的角度，我是不滿意。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果不滿意的話，要怎麼加強？你一方面宣導嘛，另外一方面，我也知道衛福部期望醫學中心下轉可能病情穩定的慢性病人到基層診所，可是我們也看到今年的基層總額預算已經確定，如果要診所收治更多病人，勢必會稀釋點值。如果更多病人進基層診所，可能這個點值就會被稀釋掉，這樣子的話，你要如何確保基層診所能夠接住病人？所以我覺得部長可能針對這一部分，希望醫學中心收治急重難罕症的病患，比較輕症的病患可能就到基層醫療院所，怎麼樣讓分級醫療做得更徹底，我覺得這應該也是我們目前要去做的一個課題。"],["邱部長泰源：感謝委員非常宏觀的分析我們未來應該要走的走向，我們所有的政策都盡量讓民眾很自然的接受分級醫療。第一個，我們讓民眾有他信任的家庭醫師；第二個，我們也提高大醫院急重症的給付，我想這個部分在石署長的努力之下，也都有很好的成果。","今年是一個非常好的機會來實行分級醫療，因為今年在政府的幫忙以及大家的努力之下，我們今年的總額提升很多，單單健保的總額就提升五百多億元，當然這裡面有蠻多部分會在基層，所以基層醫療密集度部分的經費會比較多，也就是說不怕接病人。其實今年是一個很好的機會，所以如果能夠利用今年經費比較多的情況之下，總共用在健保的有七百多億元，包括我們讓基層醫療能夠多做一些預防保健的工作；病人下來，給他全能的照顧，然後應該給付的，比如成健，可能二十年來沒有增加經費，大家都賠錢去作，政府這次可以用double的給付，今年是很好的機會。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，部長，照你所講的，如果今年的預算比往年還多，我覺得有一些政策應該要趕快去做，而且要積極地推動。"],["邱部長泰源：是的。"],["黃委員秀芳：譬如說分級醫療，如果往年做得不是那麼好，你說今年預算有增加，如何鼓勵基層醫療院所或醫學中心下轉慢性病患者，或是比較輕症的患者下轉，我覺得應該也要有一些誘因啊。"],["邱部長泰源：有、有、有。"],["黃委員秀芳：一方面也要讓所有民眾知道，大病或急重症才到醫學中心，其他感冒或一般不是那麼嚴重的疾病，可能就到診所或地區醫院、區域醫院就可以了，我覺得這個應該也要再去落實啦！要不然每一年，尤其每次過年前後看到醫院擠爆，一方面也可能當時有流感，或者像今年也許是流感或諾羅病毒，也會造成醫院人力不足。怎樣讓大醫院、部分醫學中心能夠專心在急重難罕症，其他比較輕症或慢性病可能就下轉到其他醫院。如果衛福部今年預算比較有餘裕，我覺得應該要有一些誘因，趕快落實分級醫療。"],["邱部長泰源：好，非常感謝，真的很敬佩我們的委員，對整個醫療體系的了解，提供非常卓越的見解，這就是我們今年會努力做的方向，我們也一定努力讓明年不要再發生急診太辛苦的情況。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["邱部長泰源：分級醫療，今年是一個大好的時機。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。部長，最後一個問題，之前卓院長在詢答的時候特別提到三班護病比目前還是以獎勵為主，我想請教部長的意見是怎樣？"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個12項政策是連續的政策，目前如果站在醫療的立場，當然希望護理人力能夠充足，哪一個醫院院長不希望達到護病比，但是不能因為人力不足，又要求某些制度，而讓床沒辦法開。我想一個政策的利弊得失，大家共同坐下來談，針對這個部分，我們衛福部一定跟醫院，當然也要跟護理界一直溝通。我相信至少在大家努力之下，三班護病比在醫學中心已經從36%，三班都達到的變成59%，區域醫院從26%變成49%，地區醫院三班比已經從83%達標到94%。所以我們提供獎勵，其實也是讓大家可以做得到的一個方向。將來當然更成熟、人力更多的時候，我想自然就水到渠成。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。我們希望不要在醫療機構再看到病患全部都塞在急診室，這是我們不希望看到的。"],["邱部長泰源：對！我們從整個醫療體系的改變、區域的防守，或者是分級、分流的部分，也要來努力。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：謝謝委員的指教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員。","目前我們收到臨時提案共2案，待會王正旭委員質詢之後，我們來進行處理。接下來請蘇清泉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","羅智強","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","劉建國","陳培瑜","楊曜","王義川"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00005"}}},{"id":"159118","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159118","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f5da3c4544e4f83f16de99780e8e59786ff1cdb1affc83ff41a6072d9306be1cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳超明","委員發言時間":"11:22:49 - 11:31:26","影片長度":"00:08:37","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:22:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:31:26+08:00","duration":517,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.53221875,"end":6.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.06784375,"end":10.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.544093750000002,"end":12.923468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.06221875,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.80471875,"end":19.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.77471875,"end":23.723468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.145343750000002,"end":28.414718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.97159375,"end":31.637843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.27909375,"end":35.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.53596875,"end":39.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.03721875,"end":43.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.05784375,"end":44.884718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.884718750000005,"end":45.812843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.812843750000006,"end":47.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.344093750000006,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.13659375,"end":56.275343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.882843750000006,"end":69.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.74159375,"end":74.55096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.52971875,"end":83.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.37659375000001,"end":84.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.84034375,"end":93.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.99096875000001,"end":96.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.43346875,"end":99.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.79596875,"end":100.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.78721875000001,"end":102.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.18784375000001,"end":107.82846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.85784375,"end":111.65909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.77721875,"end":118.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.99159375,"end":121.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.73346875000001,"end":124.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.97346875000001,"end":129.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.12034375000002,"end":133.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.46159375000002,"end":135.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.19534375,"end":138.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.90784375,"end":142.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.33346875,"end":147.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.35034375,"end":145.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.84346875,"end":147.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.80534375000002,"end":166.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.67159375,"end":166.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.97534375,"end":174.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.22784375,"end":172.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.78846875000002,"end":174.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.80534375000002,"end":174.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.82221875000002,"end":181.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.07846875,"end":182.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.12471875,"end":185.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.49534375000002,"end":190.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.49909375000001,"end":207.62721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.55534375000002,"end":212.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.55034375000002,"end":216.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.33034375000003,"end":222.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.79784375000003,"end":234.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.06596875000002,"end":239.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.63471875000002,"end":247.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.32971875,"end":249.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.77659375000002,"end":253.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.97846875000002,"end":255.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.05846875000003,"end":256.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.17221875,"end":258.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.78784375000004,"end":265.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.20034375,"end":267.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.69784375,"end":270.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.49909375000004,"end":272.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.84909375,"end":273.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.26659375,"end":276.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.86534375,"end":277.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.23221875,"end":279.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.88596875,"end":287.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.68221875,"end":293.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.70221875000004,"end":298.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.15284375000005,"end":301.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.63784375,"end":305.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.73409375,"end":310.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.59846875,"end":311.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.10034375000004,"end":314.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.65659375,"end":318.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.52971875000003,"end":320.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.01034375,"end":323.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.21659375,"end":333.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.26159375000003,"end":344.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.51284375,"end":350.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.64284375,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.03471875,"end":375.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.44034375,"end":383.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.90346875,"end":385.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.45159375000003,"end":396.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.16721875,"end":400.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.31846875,"end":402.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.17471875,"end":405.09846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.63846875,"end":413.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.51909375,"end":413.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.63721875000005,"end":416.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.89409375,"end":418.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.88534375,"end":420.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.85971875,"end":423.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.72846875000005,"end":428.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.06096875000003,"end":430.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.18721875,"end":438.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.62471875000006,"end":448.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.97346875000005,"end":456.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.96784375000004,"end":461.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.96284375000005,"end":463.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.53221875,"end":466.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.24909375000004,"end":472.53096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.88096875,"end":481.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.36909375000005,"end":482.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.01034375,"end":485.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.81159375000004,"end":488.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.42284375,"end":514.4484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.72659375,"end":490.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.4484687500001,"end":514.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.68471875,"end":516.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.71846875,"end":515.7647187499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.064,"end":11.713,"text":"主席好首先有請我們公平會我們的陳志偉好 請陳志偉委員長主委長"},{"start":20.507,"end":45.719,"text":"這個問題我希望你好好慎重地回答我今天一大早看到我們執政黨的委員說把它刪了預算刪了預算讓你們之外來行那我首先請教指委你們今年的預算多少總共的編列大概3億多3億多少對包含人事費3億6千萬"},{"start":48.373,"end":56.056,"text":"那比往年增加了1588萬那你們統算是526萬在我們經濟委員隊裡面很好才3-100萬如果這個加起來才626萬所以你們還增加了926萬那以增加的比例是5%以3-的比例是2.6%"},{"start":75.718,"end":102.152,"text":"我本來大美難來了一直在炒這個預算我相信我們所有委員都一清二楚整個立法院的運作到底算了多少他一直在這樣說一直在這樣我不曉得18年來已經順風順水 紅紅紅紅的習慣了在預算增加說有很多事情困難做啊 主委啊主委啊"},{"start":103.403,"end":124.189,"text":"會不會是外來選 好好回答喔你答對你就送主委 答不對就很難送主委還是我替你回答 比較安全我跟委員報告一下啦 就是其實我想恭喜委 恭喜委 誠實充分的答案這個預算的部分 我想凍結的部分對我們業務影響會比較大因為凍結430萬 要用凍結來講理由幾乎都給你們過 幾乎都沒有凍過"},{"start":130.148,"end":143.981,"text":"都跟你們解凍 幾十年是這樣 你也要再去表達他的立場不可以拿黑白為案 拿來亂施打我相信大家做立法局都一拳二斥那我講 你剛剛的回答 剛剛的報告很好"},{"start":147.878,"end":165.709,"text":"我想推薦你來當執委你如果講之外來選的時候這樣變成一個詐騙集團如果你講雖然有增加但是通貨膨脹我要艱苦辛苦的去做我全力以赴完成給你當執委要感謝我"},{"start":166.73,"end":185.666,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下那個增加的部分其實大部分是人事費我了解那業務費的部分的確動錢的部分如果沒辦法及時減少資金可以調整嘛主要是在文獻啦大家不要說那麼多了大家都知道是怎樣去做好另外說你們之外來一層在南部服務中心"},{"start":187.557,"end":206.926,"text":"有兩個公平委員會派在那一邊的黃池惠你還要做人你剝奪我們南部委員那麼強有力的服務精神像賴瑞榮委員像我們蔡依委員你去帝國用錢給他做一個那天的錢來你贏你要給這些委員有服務的機會啊"},{"start":209.062,"end":221.876,"text":"我也了解公民教育委會去到那裡也是要來動用改觀動用是在跑腿那些都是政治囚擁我夢了三十幾年從行政院的服務中心出來我們看了一圈二尺"},{"start":222.87,"end":247.085,"text":"所以這個該刪的就刪嘛不要去得罪了南部那個執政黨的立委每一個人服務的效率那麼高你剝奪他們去為你好好思考我講的問題真正的內涵那些真正的酬勇我們南部的立委都很強給他們服務一下一個人一個地方都會來找我們的立委服務等於說南部服務中心在公平委員會服務"},{"start":248.386,"end":258.356,"text":"我實在不敢相信聽我的話你很難回答你不敢得罪他們好不好所以啊你也不要講三點預算"},{"start":259.864,"end":286.779,"text":"那這次公平委員會你又講了現在只剩下五位兩位被刷掉我先講兩位即使你美職委很好他很務實很樸實公務人員但是比較難溝通那剛剛聽你在講為了前年案你有講話不已這個很好我希望你永遠保持痴心人為公平委員是獨立的單位"},{"start":288.259,"end":314.711,"text":"這個要做起來在美國是很大的單位是反脫勒斯的單位大家碰到你們就怕了但是裡面有一個深層政府拍在這邊的一個委員高通案也是他高通案從應該要賠償他改為和解碰到美國我們都沒有膝蓋了我們是跪著講什麼都好包括現在的台積電過去那邊也好"},{"start":316.824,"end":341.933,"text":"還有前年的和平案只為不講話大家以為你講話所以你能撐到現在那公平委員會一定要保持你很公之之心很公平之心來替台灣的民眾來做服務我看你長相應該能做得到講該講的話做你該做的事情你有沒有信心還是到時候為了官位都要搖來搖去擺來擺去了"},{"start":346.02,"end":359.553,"text":"謝謝委員的鼓勵跟提醒我向來的初衷就是公平會就是獨立機關公平會執法的標準就是公平交易法還有相關的政策但是怎麼有一些奇怪別人講話還好你有講話留下來我就欣賞這一點"},{"start":360.874,"end":375.557,"text":"不要說把台灣的利益全部犧牲掉沒有人說一個賠償案轉歇蓋不去改為投資案對台灣有多幫忙你看美國他要的就是你全部的我們是講好聽的話對台灣你曉得他們的金幣賣的多高什麼樣台灣有沒有比較便宜沒有現在逼著"},{"start":386.516,"end":400.003,"text":"那個台積電這樣免稅台灣的電子業在台灣做的有沒有免關稅你把本都整個移到外面核心的技術都移到外面我看這個富國神山也沒有什麼將來學會了"},{"start":403.22,"end":428.142,"text":"人家說台海一戰中美國擁有世界中片最偉大的力量澳門算得好幾,辛辛苦苦台灣人幾十人的心血,這樣研發出來的東西讓人意氣有求啊去買你也給我洗一洗我再給你丟一丟,講一些調教沒有,有條件,乖乖的"},{"start":429.37,"end":455.771,"text":"奉送給人家那這裡面當然剛剛有很多委員談到英帖的事情這國際的結合要不要經過你們這一關如果符合結合定義也超過民間結合定義做這個案你會不會像高通這樣的案件一樣啊美國人是我的阿公啊我什麼都好我們還是以個案的事實我們說將來個案的事實來做審查我看你沒有那種氣魄擔當啊"},{"start":458.636,"end":470.932,"text":"我講真的 不會為了台灣的利益啦此外你準備不要做啦這種喔 你看到所有世界上 美國講一句話"},{"start":474.096,"end":488.516,"text":"唉唷 好啦 我執行到這個地方本來只是要給我多一點時間因為我講了一些對執政黨比較有所檢討的事情我不多講 好好做 保持初心"},{"start":489.717,"end":514.191,"text":"還有壟斷物價,你曉得物價是隨時在跳動的現在通膨在這個國際貿易戰中美的各種戰爭邊緣政治是我們要特別注意的問題不是把臺灣的農民壓得死死的就掉下去萬一下颱風發大雨,缺貨是自然的給他漲一下賺一點又有什麼關係為什麼要叫農民收穫,這個觀念要改好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":641,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（11時23分）主席好，首先有請公平會陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員早。"],["陳委員超明：主委早。這個問題我希望你好好、慎重的回答，我今天一大早看到我們執政黨的委員說刪了預算讓你們窒礙難行。首先請教主委，你們今年的預算多少？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：總共大概編列三億多元。"],["陳委員超明：是三億多少？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：包含人事費。"],["陳委員超明：3億6,000萬元，比往年增加了1,588萬元，你們通刪是526萬元，我們經濟委員對你們很好，才刪減100萬元，加起來才626萬元，所以你們還增加了926萬元，增加的比率是5%，刪減的比率是2.6%。罷免案來了，一直在吵預算，我相信所有委員都一清二楚整個立法院的運作，到底刪了多少？他們邊說就邊唉，我不曉得是8年來已經順風順水、紅紅火火習慣了，預算增加說有很多事情困難做。主委啊！會不會窒礙難行？好好回答喔！你答對就升主委，答不對就很難升主委，還是我替你回答比較安全？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我跟委員報告一下，其實……"],["陳委員超明：說實話，誠實充分地答復。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想預算凍結的部分對我們業務影響會比較大。"],["陳委員超明：凍結430萬元，不要用凍結來講理由，幾乎都給你們過，幾乎都沒有凍過，都讓你們解凍，幾十年來都這樣，你也要讓在野的表達立場，不能胡說八道，我相信大家當立委那麼久，應該都一清二楚，你剛剛的回答、剛剛的報告很好，我想推薦你來當主委，你如果講窒礙難行，變成一個詐騙集團。如果你講雖然有增加，但是通貨膨脹，我要辛苦的去做，我全力以赴完成，給你當主委，要感謝我。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想跟委員報告一下，增加的部分其實大部分是人事費。"],["陳委員超明：我了解。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：業務費的部分，凍結的部分如果沒辦法及時解凍……"],["陳委員超明：可以自行調整嘛！主要是在文宣啦，大家都知道怎麼回事就別講得太……另外，說你們窒礙難行在南部服務中心有2個公平委員會派在那邊的，主委你要會做人，你剝奪我們南部委員那麼強有力的服務精神，像賴瑞隆委員、蔡易餘委員，你去高雄市駐點只是服務到市區，你要給這些委員有服務的機會，我也了解公平交易委員會去到那邊也是需要中央解決，地方只是跑腿，那些都是政治酬庸，我摸了三十幾年，從行政院的服務中心出來，我們看得一清二楚，所以該刪的就刪，不要去得罪南部執政黨的立委，每個人服務的效率那麼高，你剝奪他們去服務，你好好思考我講的問題，甚至裡面的內涵，那些真正酬庸，我們南部的立委都很強，給他們服務一下，一個人一個地方，都會來找我們的立委服務，說什麼南部服務中心叫公平委員服務，我實在不敢相信，聽我的話，你很難回答，你不敢得罪他們，好不好！所以你也不要講刪減預算，這次公平委員會委員只剩下5位，2位被刷掉。其實李鎂主委很好，他是很務實、很樸實的公務人員，但是比較難溝通。剛剛你在講為了全聯案，你有講話，說不宜，這也很好，我希望你永遠保持初心，公平會是獨立的單位，這個要做起來在美國是很大的單位，是反拖拉斯的單位，大家碰到你們就怕了，但是裡面有一個深層政府派在這邊的委員，高通案也是他，高通案從應該要賠償，他改為和解，碰到美國，我們都沒有膝蓋了，我們是跪著，講什麼都好，包括現在的台積電過去那邊也好，還有全聯的合併案，主委不講話，大家以為默許，你講話，所以你能撐到現在。公平委員會一定要保持公正之心、公平之心來替臺灣的民眾服務，我看你的長相應該能做得到，講該講的話、做你該做的事情，你有沒有信心？還是到時候為了官位搖來搖去、擺來擺去？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：謝謝委員的鼓勵和提醒，我向來的初衷就是公平會是獨立機關，公平會執法的標準就是公平交易法和相關的政策。"],["陳委員超明：是啊！但是怎麼有些奇怪，別人講話，還好你有講話留下來，我就欣賞這一點，不要把臺灣的利益全部犧牲掉，全世界沒有人把一個賠償案改成投資案，對臺灣有多幫忙？你看美國，它要的就是你全部，我們是講好聽的話，你曉得他們的軍備賣給臺灣有沒有比較便宜？沒有。例如台積電在美國，臺灣的電子業在臺灣做的有沒有免關稅？你把整個本都移到外面，核心技術都移到外面，我怕這個護國神山也沒有什麼將來。學會了人家說臺海一戰，美國擁有世界晶片最偉大的力量，那我們算老幾？辛辛苦苦、臺灣人幾十年的心血研發出來的東西，讓人予取予求，起碼你也撒嬌一下，要求一些條件，沒有！無條件乖乖的奉送給人家。這裡面當然就如剛剛有很多委員談到Intel的事情，這種國際的結合要不要經過你們這一關？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：如果符合結合的定義、也超過門檻，他就要……"],["陳委員超明：喔，結合利益，就是這句話！那你會不會像高通這樣的案件一樣，美國人是我的阿公、我什麼都好？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：沒有，我們將來還是以個案的事實來做審查的依據。"],["陳委員超明：我看你沒有那種氣魄擔當，我講真的你不會為了臺灣的利益啦，除非你準備不要做了！這種你看到世界上所有的，當美國說一句話哦……哎喲！好啦！我質詢到這個地方，本來主席要給我多一點時間，因為我講了一些對執政黨比較有所檢討的事情，我不多講，好好做，保持初心。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：還有壟斷物價，你曉得物價是隨時在跳動的，現在通膨在國際貿易戰、中美的各種戰爭、邊緣政治是我們要特別注意的問題。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是、是。"],["陳委員超明：不是把臺灣的農民壓得死死的……萬一下大雨、颳颱風，缺貨是自然的，給他漲一下、賺一點又有什麼關係？為什麼要叫農民受苦？這個觀念要改，好不好？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳超明委員。","下一位請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-2","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","陳培瑜"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00003"}}},{"id":"159117","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159117","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f8f4bc922a9e9bfa6ba53b8a5773cfe3dff1cdb1affc83ff4a478bf4b7292ce505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:23:41 - 11:30:50","影片長度":"00:07:09","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:23:41+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:30:50+08:00","duration":429,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.0553437500000005,"end":7.624718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.316593750000003,"end":9.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.919093750000002,"end":28.887218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.887218750000002,"end":29.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.16971875,"end":31.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.43534375,"end":55.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.414718750000006,"end":61.945343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.126593750000005,"end":80.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.38971875,"end":89.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.77221875000001,"end":89.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.19409375000001,"end":98.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.20534375000001,"end":153.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.72409375,"end":163.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.22471875000002,"end":191.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.74159375000002,"end":178.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.73096875000002,"end":220.67159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.97534375,"end":222.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.91596875000002,"end":223.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.42221875,"end":241.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.57534375,"end":244.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.02221875,"end":246.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.69284375,"end":302.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.07221875000005,"end":334.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.81846875,"end":425.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.50159375000004,"end":337.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.37284375,"end":350.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.27221875000004,"end":427.84596875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":6.405,"text":"好,謝謝主席,有請次長好,有請葉次長"},{"start":14.376,"end":27.726,"text":"市長早安我想剛剛一直不斷的有提到就是我們的這個青年的朋友是介於18歲到35歲那您知道這個目前這一群族群大概占台灣的人口數大概是幾分之幾嗎20"},{"start":30.809,"end":51.387,"text":"21.多%左右差不多是五分之一喔那如果這樣像剛剛我們的吳委員他所說的喔可能要到40歲的話那可能這個族群的人數人口數可能就更多了喔但是剛剛其實各個部會都被點名過一次了我就不點名喔但是我們要提到就是在六都當中喔除了這個台北新北"},{"start":52.148,"end":61.563,"text":"桃園跟高雄他們是有所謂的青年局但是還有兩個地方的六都是沒有所謂的青年局處的您知道是哪兩個地方嗎"},{"start":63.643,"end":88.424,"text":"台中跟台南所以為什麼其實我們昨天早上也特別召開了就是我們幾位委員其實從上一個會期一直到現在其實我們也特別注重就是希望這個青年朋友的聲音能夠被聽見他們不要成為在面對這個世代比較困難比較多元的當中的這樣子的一個年輕族群被忽略的這樣子的一環它是我們國家非常重要的一個資產"},{"start":90.305,"end":97.851,"text":"好 那我想昨天應該大家也都特別有關注到除了早上的記者會以外下午可能就是我們的復議案了"},{"start":99.864,"end":106.306,"text":"為什麼要特別在這邊講呢我想在我們負責推動青年政策的青年發展署這個在114年度我們的預算有編列到19億但是在昨天的我們整體的總預算複議案是沒有辦法被通過的那我想這個部分可能更添加了所謂的財政上的一個壓力那第二個就是財政收支劃分法一樣這個財劃法的部分複議案也同樣的"},{"start":128.234,"end":153.203,"text":"我們被這個在野黨給封殺了那我想這個部分在中央政府也因此需要被釋出3753億給地方政府那也使得我們的中央在這個部分可以運用的資源已經被大大的減縮了那我想現在我所知道的是115年度的青年相關的一個預算現在目前是正在籌編"},{"start":154.775,"end":162.747,"text":"那以昨天這兩個這樣子的復議案我們是完全沒有辦法通過的部分的話這將來重大的影響會是什麼"},{"start":164.244,"end":190.981,"text":"我想我們現在還在等主總給我們更明確的數字就是說因為目前114包括之前講到那個統三還有這個636億這個636億要怎麼分配到各個部會我們現在在等我們不知道然後那因為114還沒確定之前那現在115就也沒有辦法確定但是如果以這個目前看到的這個如果是主總昨天提到的28%或37%我想這都會對我們造成相當大的影響"},{"start":191.781,"end":220.115,"text":"好 所以從剛剛早上其實我有聽到幾位這個國民黨的委員就是他們有特別提到所謂的發展基金的部分那我覺得是相當的諷刺那因為根據這個國民黨他們所推動的財政紀律法他們最引以為傲的財政紀律法這第八條的第一項這個中央政府非營業特種基金必須要按照預算法當中的第四條要宰明這個資金的來源是什麼"},{"start":221.095,"end":243.98,"text":"我們才能夠設立這個基金嘛是那前面我剛剛講的其實包含這個才昨天發生的事情我們知道他們是選擇忘記還是選擇失憶還是故意不看昨天其實我們這兩個婦醫案都已經被他們封殺了齁所以這個他們還在講基金的部分我個人就覺得非常的這個完全不知道他們在想什麼齁好那"},{"start":246.801,"end":261.388,"text":"我們回歸正題還是聚焦在我們全國的青年他們的福利身上我想113年的這個全國青資交流會他是有所謂的這個全國上下大概有上百位的青年的委員"},{"start":262.328,"end":278.937,"text":"還有各地14個青年事務的專責單位的一個交流那麼他們在整個所有的交流會當中其實也討論到了四大的一個重點那麼也是我們必須要努力的一個目標包含第一個就是教育跟資源的一個落差"},{"start":279.597,"end":302.028,"text":"我們要怎麼樣能夠縮小這些城鄉的差距強化國際的一個競爭力那我想這個相關的部會可能也包含教育部國科會文化部跟經濟部在這個部分可能我們還要再來做更多的一些整合那市長對於這個第一項城鄉差距的縮小跟國際的競爭力你有沒有什麼見解"},{"start":304.109,"end":308.471,"text":"城鄉差距是教育部重視的,過去大家會擔心偏鄉缺老師的問題,所以我們投入資金在發展數位學習平台"},{"start":318.354,"end":333.242,"text":"那包括我們去年我們推出了這個AI的這個人工智慧家教就是他在不同的國運數字這個學科可以幫助學生可以讓他學會這些東西所以其實我們投入非常多的資源在想要擬平這個成像的差距"},{"start":334.623,"end":353.557,"text":"因為時間的問題我等一下就快速的把這四項另外第二個其實他們不是只有在學校面臨到一些困難可能真的出了社會之後不管是職場或者是就業上的壓力包含所謂的高房價以及托育的政策的部分其實也影響到我們的青年的發展另外在第三點在職場的適應跟勞動的環境上其實就像剛剛成儒次長所說的"},{"start":359.261,"end":367.885,"text":"AI的時代的工作的模組或者是工具或者是Business或者是他的這個Model已經開始轉變了那他在轉變的時候其實讓職場的適應讓這些青年朋友他們在就職場的時候其實也可能會面臨到一些轉弦的相關的問題"},{"start":376.568,"end":400.041,"text":"那第四個我們當然希望就是這些青年能夠更多參與公共政策的影響力能夠讓更多的青年他們發聲的管道能夠被聽見那我想這個可能要靠很多的不同的一些部會來共同的努力那其實我們最期待的就是青年基本法能夠在這個會期當中是我們首要真的希望能夠在我們"},{"start":402.382,"end":425.094,"text":"這個院會當中可以三讀通過的一個基本法草案那也讓我們的這個青年的朋友的聲音可以被聽見那當然以上呢是我們歸納出在這個113年全國青資交流會當中的一些議題然後跟一些方向那我想這個也就是給次長給交易部跟各個不同的部會來做一個參考好 以上 謝謝謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":563,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時23分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：有請葉次長。"],["郭委員昱晴：次長，早安。"],["葉次長丙成：早。"],["郭委員昱晴：剛剛一直不斷提到，青年朋友的年紀是訂於18歲到35歲，你知道目前這個族群的人口數大概是占臺灣人口數的幾分之幾嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：21%左右。"],["郭委員昱晴：差不多是五分之一，如果是像剛剛伍委員所言，將上限訂為40歲，這個族群的人口數可能就更多了。因為剛剛各個部會都被點過一次，我就不再點名了，但是在六都之中除了臺北市、新北市、桃園市及高雄市有所謂的青年局，還有二個地方並沒有所謂的青年局處，你知道是哪二個地方嗎？臺中市及臺南市。昨天早上我們也特別召開了記者會，其實我們幾位委員從上個會期一直到現在都特別注重，希望青年朋友的聲音能夠被聽見、也希望青年族群不要成為這個比較困難、比較多元的世代中被忽略的一環，因為他們是我們國家非常重要的資產。","昨天大家應該也都關注到，除了早上的記者會之外，下午就是我們的覆議案了，為什麼我要特別在這邊講呢？因為負責推動青年政策的青年發展署在114年度編列了19億元的預算，但是昨天整體總預算的覆議案沒有辦法被通過，這個部分可能更添加了財政上的壓力。第二個就是財政收支劃分法的覆議案也同樣被在野黨封殺了，中央政府也因此需要被釋出3,753億元給地方政府，使得中央在這個部分能夠運用的資源已經被大大的減縮了。據我所知，115年度與青年相關的預算目前正在籌編，但是以昨天2個覆議案完全沒辦法通過而言，將來重大的影響會是什麼？"],["葉次長丙成：現在我們還在等主總給我們更明確的數字，因為目前114包括之前講到的統刪與636億元要如何分配到各個部會，我們現在也在等、我們也不知道。在114的部分還沒確定之前，115的部分同樣也沒辦法確定，但是以主總昨天提到的28%或37%而言，我想這個都會對我們造成相當大的影響。"],["郭委員昱晴：早上我也聽到幾位國民黨委員特別提到發展基金的部分，我覺得是相當的諷刺，根據國民黨推動的財政紀律法、他們最引以為傲的財政紀律法，第八條第一項規定，中央政府非營業特種基金必須要按照預算法第四條，載明資金的來源是什麼，我們才能夠設立這個基金嘛！"],["葉次長丙成：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：前面我剛剛講的其實是昨天才發生的事情，我不知道他們是選擇忘記、選擇失憶或是故意不看，昨天的兩個覆議案其實都已經被他們封殺了，對於他們還在講基金的部分，我個人是完全不知道他們在想什麼。","我們回歸正題，還是聚焦在全國青年的福利身上，113年的全國青諮交流會是全國大約上百位的青年委員以及各地14個青年事務專責單位的交流，他們在交流會中討論到四大重點、也是我們必須要努力的目標。第一個是教育與資源的落差，我們要如何縮小這些城鄉的差距，強化國際的競爭力。我想相關的部會可能也包含教育部、國發會、國科會、文化部及經濟部，在這個部分可能我們還要再做更多的整合。次長，對於第一項的縮小城鄉差距及強化國際競爭力是否有什麼見解？"],["葉次長丙成：城鄉差距一直是我們教育部非常重視的問題，這些年來我們一直投入非常多的資源，舉個例子，過去大家都擔心偏鄉欠缺老師的問題，所以我們投入很大的資金去發展數位學習平台，包括去年也推出了AI人工智慧家教，針對不同的學科可以幫助學生學會這些東西，其實我們投入非常多的資源要弭平城鄉的差距。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為時間的關係，等一下我就快速講過這四項。"],["葉次長丙成：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：第二個，其實他們並不是只在學校會遇到一些困難，真的出了社會之後，無論是職場或是就業上的壓力，包含所謂的高房價以及托育政策的部分，其實也會影響到青年的發展。第三個是在職場適應及勞動環境，誠如剛剛次長所說的，AI時代的工作模組、工具或model已經開始轉變，在它轉變的時候，其實職場的適應讓這些青年朋友在進入職場時也可能會面臨到一些轉銜的相關問題。第四個，我們當然希望這些青年能夠有更多參與公共政策的影響力，讓更多青年發聲的管道能夠被聽見，我想這個可能要靠更多的部會共同努力。其實我們最期待的是青年基本法草案能夠在這個會期中三讀通過，讓青年朋友的聲音可以被聽見。","以上是我們歸納出113年全國青諮交流會中的一些議題及方向，提供給次長、教育部及各個不同部會做為參考，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員、謝謝次長。","接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-2","speakers":["林宜瑾","黃捷","林楚茵","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","林德福","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","范雲","吳思瑤","邱志偉","陳培瑜","李坤城"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基\n本法草案」案；三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；四、審查委員吳思瑤等\n47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；六、\n審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法\n草案」案；八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；九、審查委員王美惠等17人\n擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十一、審\n查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十二、審查委員葛如鈞等19人擬具「青年基本\n法草案」案；十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十四、審查委員魯明哲\n等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；\n十六、審查委員葉元之等 20 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十七、審查委員林德福等 20 人擬具\n「青年發展基本法草案」案；十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案 (僅進行\n詢答)","agenda_id":"1142601_00009"}}},{"id":"159116","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159116","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f0b576e906546782efc7dc3b86466824cff1cdb1affc83ff41445c6f97c71b35d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:11:14 - 11:30:26","影片長度":"00:19:12","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:11:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:30:26+08:00","duration":1152,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.88596875,"end":12.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.214718750000003,"end":13.176593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.340968750000002,"end":17.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.83034375,"end":15.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.54721875,"end":18.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.06909375,"end":26.828468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.11096875,"end":28.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.08534375,"end":31.367843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.637843750000002,"end":33.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.05971875,"end":34.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.89909375,"end":37.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.51909375,"end":36.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.134718750000005,"end":38.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.28159375,"end":43.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.462843750000005,"end":59.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.66284375,"end":63.41346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.10534375,"end":65.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.00784375,"end":67.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.15534375,"end":68.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.98221875,"end":69.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.85971875,"end":70.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.84221875,"end":75.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.55909375,"end":78.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.14471875000001,"end":84.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.63784375,"end":86.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.83596875,"end":88.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.45596875000001,"end":92.47221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.26534375,"end":95.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.48846875000001,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.12096875,"end":105.78659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.09034375,"end":112.50284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.84034375,"end":115.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.88221875,"end":120.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.03721875000001,"end":126.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.71159375,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.18596875,"end":155.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.23471875,"end":164.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.24159375000002,"end":168.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.74721875,"end":171.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.14346875,"end":173.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.33721875,"end":177.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.89346875,"end":183.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.40721875,"end":185.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.77409375000002,"end":192.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.87409375000001,"end":195.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.32534375,"end":197.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.43034375000002,"end":199.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.88159375,"end":200.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.04596875000001,"end":205.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.99034375000002,"end":208.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.19221875000002,"end":215.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.68096875,"end":219.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.86221875,"end":216.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.19534375,"end":219.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.55784375000002,"end":221.51534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.87409375000001,"end":237.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.02096875,"end":226.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.25159375,"end":255.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.24409375,"end":269.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.14909375,"end":271.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.52846875,"end":275.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.54909375,"end":277.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.51471875000004,"end":281.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.89409375,"end":287.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.79659375,"end":308.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.60471875,"end":298.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.14721875000004,"end":313.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.34471875,"end":315.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.47096875,"end":322.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.41909375,"end":326.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.37659375000004,"end":327.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.59159375,"end":337.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.80096875000004,"end":352.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.22534375000004,"end":369.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.18409375000005,"end":373.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.08221875000004,"end":378.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.56659375000004,"end":381.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.63409375000003,"end":380.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.64659375,"end":381.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.54096875000005,"end":384.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.76409375000003,"end":387.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.98346875000004,"end":385.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.92409375,"end":401.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.74909375000004,"end":400.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.48721875,"end":411.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.76409375000003,"end":443.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.00909375000003,"end":437.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.33659375,"end":448.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.14221875000004,"end":453.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.03596875000005,"end":460.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.27159375,"end":461.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.06846875,"end":464.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.16534375000003,"end":467.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.65409375,"end":468.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.00409375000004,"end":475.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.59784375000004,"end":477.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.13346875,"end":482.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.60534375000003,"end":487.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.48221875,"end":488.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.43096875000003,"end":498.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.00471875000005,"end":493.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.97471875,"end":495.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.95721875000004,"end":501.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.19721875000005,"end":503.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.66971875,"end":502.87221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.80034375,"end":505.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.69034375,"end":506.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.44971875000005,"end":506.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.97284375000004,"end":513.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.6047187500001,"end":523.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.02534375,"end":522.9028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.5947187500001,"end":525.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.4465937500001,"end":530.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.1797187500001,"end":534.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.96846875,"end":536.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.4365937499999,"end":537.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.3940937500001,"end":541.0772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.27971875,"end":542.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.0009687500001,"end":545.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.3928437500001,"end":549.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.6072187500001,"end":552.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.1128437500001,"end":557.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.6865937499999,"end":559.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.2009687500001,"end":560.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.1965937500001,"end":560.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.55096875,"end":569.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.24596875,"end":579.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.78159375,"end":570.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.9272187500001,"end":584.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.7622187500001,"end":586.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.97721875,"end":587.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.8884687500001,"end":588.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.34409375,"end":588.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.6940937500001,"end":592.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.54159375,"end":595.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.74409375,"end":595.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.3259687500001,"end":597.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.4397187500001,"end":597.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.92909375,"end":600.5447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.84409375,"end":603.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.8015937499999,"end":606.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.1765937499999,"end":608.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.6740937500001,"end":611.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.5303437499999,"end":614.7534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.64346875,"end":622.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.14909375,"end":626.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.2747187500001,"end":633.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.95284375,"end":639.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.3315937500001,"end":642.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.1753437500001,"end":642.5803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.76159375,"end":645.5672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.9553437500001,"end":653.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.1784687500001,"end":650.7647187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.89096875,"end":652.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.2622187500001,"end":655.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.7553437500001,"end":658.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.4553437500001,"end":659.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.36221875,"end":663.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.61534375,"end":663.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.87221875,"end":666.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.3022187500001,"end":668.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.20909375,"end":670.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.7109687500001,"end":671.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.63471875,"end":674.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.6340937500001,"end":681.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.60409375,"end":681.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.5109687500001,"end":686.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.7253437500001,"end":690.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.6740937500001,"end":692.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.6272187500001,"end":694.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.3147187500001,"end":696.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.62659375,"end":698.9428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.9553437500001,"end":709.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.2122187500001,"end":703.6003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":709.6584687500001,"end":712.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.98284375,"end":720.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.6103437500001,"end":748.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.4834687500002,"end":753.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":754.9340937500001,"end":761.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":761.07659375,"end":762.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.4897187500001,"end":764.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.5990937500001,"end":767.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.51409375,"end":771.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.85971875,"end":783.2334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.0222187500001,"end":800.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":801.4922187500001,"end":803.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":804.9853437500001,"end":808.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":808.71471875,"end":815.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":817.55721875,"end":822.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":822.5859687500001,"end":824.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":824.8640937500002,"end":829.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":829.82534375,"end":831.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":832.2722187500001,"end":840.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":840.5578437500001,"end":846.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":847.27409375,"end":848.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.7590937500001,"end":850.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":850.75034375,"end":851.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":850.78409375,"end":851.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":851.77971875,"end":854.5303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":854.58096875,"end":875.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":876.3159687500001,"end":884.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":882.4753437500001,"end":892.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":895.5872187500001,"end":902.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":903.94034375,"end":907.1297187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":908.0747187500001,"end":913.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":914.4197187500001,"end":920.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":920.91659375,"end":929.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":930.7209687500001,"end":931.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":933.47159375,"end":934.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":935.6315937500001,"end":944.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":941.48721875,"end":941.7234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":945.1997187500001,"end":953.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":952.9790937500002,"end":957.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":954.41346875,"end":955.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":956.6240937500002,"end":960.1509687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":959.3072187500002,"end":962.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":963.7790937500001,"end":965.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":964.09971875,"end":968.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":966.5972187500001,"end":966.8503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":968.8078437500001,"end":968.9934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":969.3647187500001,"end":979.7765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":972.7565937500001,"end":972.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":978.73034375,"end":982.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":982.3584687500002,"end":986.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":986.8303437500001,"end":990.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":990.3740937500002,"end":990.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":990.54284375,"end":992.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":991.55534375,"end":991.9265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":992.50034375,"end":1004.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":996.76971875,"end":1000.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1005.17346875,"end":1011.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1011.5859687500001,"end":1013.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1013.62784375,"end":1026.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1027.14471875,"end":1029.1865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1029.1865937500002,"end":1031.3297187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1031.5828437500002,"end":1032.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1033.2534687500001,"end":1036.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1037.4722187500001,"end":1041.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1042.5347187500001,"end":1046.9222187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1048.42409375,"end":1052.0184687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1053.01409375,"end":1059.1397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1061.0128437500002,"end":1073.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1074.42846875,"end":1077.9890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1078.5797187500002,"end":1080.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1081.27971875,"end":1085.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1085.95409375,"end":1087.8778437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1088.8397187500002,"end":1092.7715937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1092.9403437500002,"end":1098.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1098.0872187500001,"end":1106.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1099.2009687500001,"end":1099.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1101.3609687500002,"end":1102.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1103.7065937500001,"end":1104.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1106.9465937500001,"end":1115.4009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1116.16034375,"end":1130.0147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1127.6184687500001,"end":1128.9009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1130.0653437500002,"end":1132.5965937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1133.05221875,"end":1134.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1134.6553437500002,"end":1140.5615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1141.20284375,"end":1141.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1142.0972187500001,"end":1150.04534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.172,"end":37.459,"text":"主席好 有請次長麻煩次長也請那個中署長再請洪司長還有劉司長法律事務司的劉司長還有法治司的洪司長"},{"start":43.362,"end":70.435,"text":"委員好是 次長好 還有司長署長們好我在這邊呢 首先我想要請教各位大家知道陸委會最近有下令要求所有的公教人員要簽名拒絕有沒有這個大陸的身份證跟居住證請問次長您簽了嗎各位報告我簽了您簽了 對好 然後署長呢"},{"start":73.911,"end":90.511,"text":"署長有沒有簽名拒絕?有沒有簽了那個拒絕書?哦,看起來署長可能還沒有簽。來,市長。簽了。簽了。好,人家都簽了。那麼我想請問一下,如果不簽的話,會被處罰嗎?"},{"start":93.579,"end":120.334,"text":"沒有沒有這樣子說明沒有說因為不簽會被處罰是不是請次長可以再重複再大聲一點告訴我們如果不簽的話會被處罰嗎他那個當事人委會先我們但我們他沒有說不簽會被處罰處罰他必須要有法源的依據啊處罰要有法源的依據那剛剛因為次長有特別有講到法律保留原則"},{"start":122.101,"end":140.489,"text":"可以跟我們民眾解釋一下跟我們大家解釋一下什麼叫法律保留原則法律保留就是涉及到這一個人民的權益的部分要透過國家立法機關的立法繼續保留那法律保留分為絕對保留跟相對保留如果絕對保留涉及到人身自由的部分他就絕對一定要立法院授權的法律才能規範"},{"start":142.35,"end":167.731,"text":"那相對的法律保留它就是說它不是涉及到人身自由但是有可能會涉及到人民的權益的那基本上它原則上是需要有一個法律或者法律授權的命令來做相關的規範是的好 非常謝謝次長的說明那簡單來說如果說今天行政機關要處罰人民的話是不是應該要在法律裡面明確規定構成要件要清楚違反了構成要件才可以處罰嘛"},{"start":168.832,"end":196.821,"text":"在我們行政法法裡面有這樣的規定對不對對行政法法就這個有特別的規範是好那麼現在呢在兩岸人民關係條例裡面的第九條第九之一條第九之一條裡面只有禁止台灣地區的人民不可以有大陸地區的戶籍涉戶籍還有領友護照那麼所以今天如果說是"},{"start":198.642,"end":225.939,"text":"陸委會因為說某個台灣人民他在大陸地區有居住證所以就予以處罰這樣合理嗎各位報告這涉及到兩岸關係條例它並不是本部主管的法規啦所以我們在法律解釋上面嘛我剛剛跟你講了這個法律規定嘛所以必須要明確化嘛對不對行政法法上的確是規範要處罰但必須要法律免定嘛"},{"start":226.719,"end":254.755,"text":"至於這個兩岸關係條例它特別的規範我們必須要尊重主管機關因為我們畢竟北澳不必定不是主管機關啦市長你客氣了啦就法律解釋的部分我相信您絕對會解釋的比那個陸委會要好要更專業更權威我現在要談的就是其實在這裡就要清楚的告訴軍公教還有現在也擴大到財團法人等等的相關的職員工其實不簽"},{"start":257.295,"end":276.311,"text":"這個陸委會所要求的有沒有具有大陸的身份證居住證等等的這些表單其實是不違法而且也不能被處罰與法無拒更何況陸委會是搞不清楚嗎教師是公務員嗎請問市長您知道教師是不是公務員"},{"start":282.346,"end":306.284,"text":"公務員他有廣義跟狹義的定義嘛那我不曉得他的主管是所以他不屬於公務員法裡面所講的公務員我們現在很清楚知道除了兼任行政主管的教授才可以被視為是公務員否則的話基本上一般的教師他不是屬於公務員所以我要談就是陸委會我都不知道我真的下次我認為說陸委會的這個法規會他的"},{"start":310.547,"end":336.495,"text":"應該可能要考慮是不是要刪他們的預算因為沒有專業然後呢又這個要求人事總處要求這個教育部發這種違法濫權然後要求人民要自行表態我對國家效忠的這種簽名拒絕單我認為真是荒謬至極"},{"start":340.266,"end":351.154,"text":"這條的規範它的規範主體是什麼可不可以裁罰怎麼裁罰大委員可能要問陸委會我想說這邊可能要請法務部來寫一個專案報告啦針對就是到底陸委會有沒有這個權利可以處罰有沒有他的這樣子如果說處罰的話有沒有違反行政法法這應該也是屬於法務部可以提供的諮詢意見我想這個問題我就先問到這邊"},{"start":366.545,"end":378.255,"text":"那接下來呢我想要請教這個次長的就是法務部的今年的預算基本上剛剛其實副總長已經有問過了今年預算是有增加的"},{"start":379.645,"end":401.214,"text":"增加了多少億3減後的比較大概多了12億所以還是有多12億但是12億基本上都是用在人事費用因為我們今年增加了150、60位的員額所以它基本上就是用在人事費用還有相關既有的員額的執行的調整所以都是人事費的增加"},{"start":402.314,"end":426.853,"text":"但是其實整個公務機關本來就是要遵截經費要在合理的經費範圍運用裡面去好好的去執行業務基本上其實這次的總預算每個部會機關幾乎都有增加而且增加幅度還挺高的我想就這個部分來說的話"},{"start":427.654,"end":443.827,"text":"如果未來真的有自然難行的地方需要最佳預算還是要提早解凍我想法務部這邊呢可以再向我們司法委員會來報告好那接下來我想請教這個次長來我們看一下這個照片您看從這個照片裡面你看到了什麼委員是指拿方面對啊您看到了什麼嗎看到幾位名人政治人物在裡面"},{"start":454.233,"end":475.437,"text":"委員是要講這個就是說戒護就醫的問題嗎?保外就醫還有呢?還是就是他的戒護?我們現在來看一下這個看看吧其實我們作為法律人看到這張照片第一個直覺就是看到了犯罪嫌疑人柯文哲"},{"start":478.226,"end":488.051,"text":"然後另外一個就是保外就醫的貪污犯陳水扁請問這次矯正署派了多少的警力去戒護就醫"},{"start":492.181,"end":512.824,"text":"去戒護 戒護奔商嗎對 戒護奔商北索有八名警力 但是也有政風人員所以總共有多少位總共十位總共十位去戒護柯文哲怕他在上禮當中跑掉"},{"start":513.629,"end":530.019,"text":"八位是介護 兩位是事先到告別式的會場先做一些相關流程為了慎重起見 總共十位那請問陳水扁他到現在還是保外就醫你們都不擔心他跑掉嗎他這次參加柯文哲父親的告別式有事先提出核准嗎"},{"start":542.978,"end":552.021,"text":"他有事先跟中間報告每一次都只是報告來我們看一下我們法條怎麼規定法條怎麼規定"},{"start":556.358,"end":578.444,"text":"因為中間 要監獄核准對不對是 中間也有跟他就是說是不是可以請阿扁提早去做年香致意你們都是對陳水扁非常的禮遇客氣他去詢問你可不可以提前告訴我你要參加什麼活動請問您知道他有去參加賀龍夜夜秀嗎他應該是有"},{"start":586.162,"end":614.294,"text":"賀瓏找他賀瓏找他所以角色署也同意了 台中監獄也同意了賀瓏是到他家拜訪的到他家拜訪所以錄了這個節目沒有關係我想請問的就是說陳水扁他參加告別式是與他的醫療有助於他的醫療嗎是他日常生活所需嗎"},{"start":616.69,"end":633.466,"text":"我們原則上都是尊重醫主啊 那中間還有報告我跟您說 只要我當立法委員的一天我只要看到陳水扁出現在公開媒體 我一定會問這個問題請問如果醫主造假醫生會違反 會觸犯什麼樣的刑事責任 會有什麼樣的刑事責任造假是"},{"start":643.783,"end":653.934,"text":"如果是造假應該是偽造文書之類的這因為但是我們尊重醫師有專業的判斷尊重醫師啦所以您就認為說所有的醫生都不可能會有造假是嗎有沒有可能台中監獄基本上也是包庇"},{"start":667.375,"end":673.8,"text":"如果今天一個連獄長他包庇署長您包庇可能會觸犯什麼樣的刑責"},{"start":676.67,"end":698.325,"text":"我想我們心中有一把尺 我們不會去做這些事情是 我想告訴您相關的刑法的法律追溯權的時效是很長的除非你們有信心 民進黨政府一直執政超過20年你們不會有責任否則我告訴您 你們現在的所作所為 大家都在記錄"},{"start":699.997,"end":711.475,"text":"跟委員報告台中監獄一定是依據保外遇制的審核基準去按照規定來辦理的好來接下來我再來講另外一個議題"},{"start":713.055,"end":719.356,"text":"其實從這次看其實這個有關於在偵查期間當中的這個羈押期間是不是有過長的問題不僅是學界也在討論其實實務界很多都在討論這個議題那當然這次柯文哲的事件又讓大家重新的去檢視到底我們現在刑事訴訟法裡面的規定偵查當中的羈押期間讓檢察官有 司法檢察有"},{"start":744.601,"end":766.731,"text":"簡單來說可以最長有四個月的羈押期間有沒有過長請問法務部有去曾經有做過相關的檢討嗎各位報告那歷次有關羈押的修法羈押期間這一定會有做相關的法治上的研究這是絕對會有的是我們看看韓國看看日本人家的一次的羈押時間"},{"start":769.591,"end":782.541,"text":"初次的大概就10天被藥的時候延長也是10天最長最長也是25天韓國也是就是這個初次是10天然後延長的話是不可以超過10天"},{"start":785.086,"end":803.421,"text":"相對起來我們台灣的偵查當中的羈押可以這個押犯人的押犯罪嫌疑人的時間是非常長的這已經是侵害了犯罪嫌疑人的人權我們如果從人權保障的角度來講的話我們其實台灣在這方面是落伍的"},{"start":805.049,"end":830.783,"text":"我相信大家都應該很清楚知道其實羈押制度常常會成為偵查機關取得自白而惡用的手段理論上就是在案件未確定之前應該要尊重要有這個要無罪推定而且要更重視犯罪嫌疑人的人身自由保障"},{"start":832.318,"end":845.233,"text":"那我希望保護部應該要好好的去檢討我們現在的相關偵查當中的羈押規定是不是合理跟世界的潮流跟其他國家相比較來講"},{"start":847.315,"end":875.433,"text":"我們是不是規範的過度有違反不當比例有違背這個比例原則各位報告那羈押期間的長短那涉及到不同的偵查制度不可一概而論那事實上我們相關的羈押我們歷次很多個司法官司事致都有做一些解釋其實這個重點不應該羈押長短也是個原因另外一個應該是著重於羈押要件的嚴格審查還有羈押的整個審核當中你要給他月卷相關的"},{"start":877.135,"end":891.287,"text":"這個程序上的保障事實上後來大法官解釋之後我們相關修法也都朝這個方向去保障申請羈押的流程好我想這個部分的話就是整體一併檢討那最後我很快的來講有關於這個律師職前訓練的事情我們直接跳到相關的法律我要談的是有關於律師職前訓練到底誰才是應該要主要負責"},{"start":903.971,"end":928.985,"text":"依照我們這個現行的律師法裡面的規定律師值錢訓練是由全國律師聯合會辦理當時在2019年修法的時候李友講得非常清楚為了落實律師的自律自治的精神民地律師值錢訓練是由全國律師聯合會自行辦理什麼叫自行辦理錢該誰出"},{"start":933.496,"end":960.117,"text":"法務部出嗎各位報告這一條109條109年修法的時候因為這個歷史法做了非常大幅度的變動所以當時這一條本身在我們歷史法裡面特別規範它的施行日期另外由行政院來定之所以這條本身到目前為止它只要另外要行政第一個時間它才會生效所以你們到目前為止都沒有定施行期間沒有 我們已經報行政院請行政院核定它的時間是 你們什麼時候報的這是109年"},{"start":964.257,"end":986.646,"text":"修正的 到現在為止這個條文都還沒有正式施行就是說這一條要由全聯會來辦理這件事情立法當時就有意的要交由行政院來另行公告他的施行期間所以請問次長現在是行政院還沒有公告嗎我們現在已經請行政院 希望行政院能夠趕快來公告"},{"start":987.226,"end":1012.801,"text":"所以從109年到現在你們都沒有提要請行政院進速公告跟我們報告109年歷史法做了非常非常大幅度的修正我們必須要給歷史界我先講這一條就講這一條我們當時是要讓歷史界有一些時間去新法的適用要不然它的整個變革太大了所以當時是有意的把這個事情往後延好所以六年了"},{"start":1013.681,"end":1030.377,"text":"都還沒有辦法這個全律會都還沒有辦法自行辦理所以呢現在律師職權訓練的這筆費用一直都是由法務部出由我們全民的納稅錢來付是嗎目前在公告之前是的是的所以每年300多萬6年了"},{"start":1034.026,"end":1058.863,"text":"1800多萬我們一直幫全綠會難怪全綠會的那些理事長啦 理監事這麼支持民進黨都是賴清德後援會的律師成員我要講這真的是非常非常不負責任的一個做法謝謝今天次長告訴我原來這個條文到現在都還沒有施行還沒有正式施行"},{"start":1061.092,"end":1086.846,"text":"所以我們這次三預算坦白說我當時我就覺得很奇怪為什麼是由法務部去編列這筆預算如果說職前訓練律師職前訓練是由法務部主辦的話他的委辦他不見得要委託給權律會啊他也可以委託給大專院校也可以委託給法官學院司法官訓練所為什麼一定要委託給權律會"},{"start":1088.908,"end":1114.77,"text":"原來你們現在到目前為止一直都還在幫他們付這筆錢這個當時在109人立法的時候他就是這個立法目的就是這樣子定這一條對 立法目的不就是要全立法會自己辦理嗎然後自己負責經費嘛 對不對只是說你們現在讓他六年都沒有正式的啟用這個條文所以在六年期間的所有經費都還是法務部要編列公務預算來支應"},{"start":1116.873,"end":1140.191,"text":"這個是法條的設計另外他律師他本身其實有公益涉財在野法朝的地位法務部是律師的主管機關從一個主管機關的角度去看這個當時立法有意這麼定那我們就尊重立法者的決定是非常謝謝今天次長告訴我這些我終於知道為什麼這麼多的律師是這麼支持民進黨政府這麼支持"},{"start":1142.461,"end":1146.602,"text":"賴清德都是賴清德後援會的成員也難怪人家說律師的這個綠應該改成綠色的綠以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1101,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時11分）主席好。有請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：也請周署長、法制司洪司長和法律事務司劉司長。"],["主席：麻煩洪司長和劉司長。"],["翁委員曉玲：次長好，還有司長、署長們好。首先本席想要請教各位，大家知道陸委會最近下令要求所有公教人員，簽名具結有沒有大陸的身分證和居住證。請問次長，您簽了嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我簽了。"],["翁委員曉玲：您簽了？"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。署長呢？署長有沒有簽名具結？有沒有簽那個具結書？看起來署長可能還沒有簽。司長？"],["劉司長英秀：簽了。"],["洪司長家原：簽了。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，兩個司長都簽了。本席想請問一下，如果不簽會被處罰嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有。並沒有因為不簽會被處罰。"],["翁委員曉玲：是不是可以請次長再重複一次，大聲的告訴我們，如果不簽的話會被處罰嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：陸委會當然是希望我們簽，但沒有說不簽會被處罰，因為處罰必須要有法源依據，法律要有規範。"],["翁委員曉玲：很好，處罰要有法源依據。因為剛才次長有特別說到法律保留原則，可以向民眾和大家解釋一下什麼叫法律保留原則嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：法律保留就是涉及到人民權益的部分，透過國家立法機關的立法進行保留，法律保留分為絕對保留和相對保留，如果是絕對保留，因為涉及人身自由的部分，一定要有立法院授權的法律才能規範。相對的，法律保留就是不涉及人身自由，但是有可能會涉及人民的權益，基本上、原則上需要有一個法律，或者法律授權的命令來做相關規範，這叫做法律保留原則。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，非常謝謝次長的說明。簡單來說，如果今天行政機關要處罰人民的話，是不是應該要在法律當中明確規定？就是構成要件要清楚，違反構成要件才可以處罰嘛！行政罰法有這樣的規定，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對，行政罰法針對這個部分有特別規範。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。現在在兩岸人民關係條例第九條之一，只有禁止臺灣地區人民不可以在大陸地區設戶籍以及領有護照，所以今天陸委會如果因為某個臺灣人民在大陸地區有居住證就予以處罰，這樣合理嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：這涉及到兩岸關係條例，它並不是本部主管的法規，所以我們這邊……"],["翁委員曉玲：因為這關係到法律解釋，本席剛剛就和你說過，法律的規定必須明確化嘛！對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：對，行政罰法的確規範，如果要處罰必須要法律明定。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["黃次長謀信：至於兩岸關係條例的特別規範，我們必須尊重主管機關，因為法務部畢竟不是主管機關，我們沒有辦法代他們回答。"],["翁委員曉玲：次長，您客氣了啦！就法律解釋的部分，本席相信您絕對會解釋的比陸委會好，會更專業、更權威。本席現在要談的，就是在這裡清楚的告訴軍公教人員，還有現在也被要求具結的財團法人等相關職員工，不簽陸委會所要求的，是否具有大陸身分證、居住證等表單，其實是不違法的，而且也不能被處罰，因為於法無據。更何況，陸委會是搞不清楚嗎？教師是公務員嗎？請問次長，教師是不是公務員？"],["黃次長謀信：公務員有廣義和狹義的定義，我不曉得他的主管機……"],["翁委員曉玲：但是他們不屬於公務人員法所說的公務員。我們現在很清楚，兼任行政主管的教授才可以被視為公務員，基本上一般教師不是公務員。本席認為下次可能要考慮是否刪陸委會法規單位的預算，因為不專業，而且還要求人事總處、教育部發這種違法濫權的文件，要求人民自行表態對國家效忠，簽署這樣的具結單，本席認為真的荒謬至極。"],["黃次長謀信：這一條的規範主體是什麼？可不可以裁罰？怎麼裁罰？可不可以簽？委員可能要問陸委會，畢竟他們才是主管機關，我們可能沒辦法回答。"],["翁委員曉玲：可能要請法務部提出專案報告，陸委會有沒有這個權力處罰？如果處罰的話，有沒有違反行政罰法？這應該也是法務部可以提供的意見，這個問題本席就先問到這邊。","接下來本席想要請教次長，關於法務部今年的預算，其實剛才傅總召已經問過，今年預算是有增加的。增加多少億元？"],["黃次長謀信：以刪減後比較，大概是多了12億元。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以還是有多12億元嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：但是這12億元基本上都是用在人事費用啦！因為我們今年增加一百五、六十位員額，基本上就是用在人事費用，還有既有員額薪資的調整，增加的都是人事費。"],["翁委員曉玲：公務機關本來就要撙節經費，要在合理的範圍好好執行業務。其實就這次的總預算來看，每一個部會機關幾乎都有增加，而且增加的幅度還挺高的，就這個部分來說，如果未來真的有窒礙難行的地方，需要追加預算或是要提早解凍，法務部可以再向司法委員會報告。"],["黃次長謀信：好，非常謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來本席想請教次長，我們看一下這個照片，從這張照片，你看到了什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：委員是指哪方面？"],["翁委員曉玲：您看到什麼嘛？有幾位名人、政治人物在裡面。"],["黃次長謀信：委員是要說保外就醫的問題嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：還有呢？"],["黃次長謀信：還是他的戒護……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我們現在來看一下。作為法律人，我們看到這張照片的第一個直覺，就是看到犯罪嫌疑人柯文哲，另外就是保外就醫的貪污犯陳水扁。請問這次矯正署派了多少警力戒護？"],["周署長輝煌：柯P的戒護奔喪嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：對，戒護奔喪。"],["周署長輝煌：北監有8名警力，還有政風人員。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以總共多少位？"],["周署長輝煌：總共10位。"],["翁委員曉玲：總共10位戒護柯文哲，怕他在喪禮當中跑掉。"],["周署長輝煌：8位是戒護，2位是事先到告別式會場了解相關流程，這是為了慎重起見，總共10位。"],["翁委員曉玲：這是為了慎重起見。請問陳水扁到現在還是保外就醫，你們都不擔心他跑掉嗎？他這次參加柯文哲父親的告別式有事先提出申請嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：他有事先向中監報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：每一次都只是報告？來，我們看一下法條怎麼規定。"],["周署長輝煌：因為中監……"],["翁委員曉玲：要監獄核准，對不對？"],["周署長輝煌：是。中監也有表示是不是可以請阿扁提早去捻香致意。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們對陳水扁非常禮遇、客氣，還要去詢問他你可不可以提前告訴我們要參加什麼活動。請問您知道他有去參加賀瓏夜夜秀嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：應該是賀瓏去找他。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以矯正署同意了？臺中監獄也同意了？事後同意還是事前同意？"],["周署長輝煌：賀瓏是到他家拜訪。"],["翁委員曉玲：到他家拜訪，還順便錄了這個節目，所以沒有關係？本席想請問的是，陳水扁參加告別式有助於他的醫療嗎？是他日常生活所需嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：原則上我們都是尊重醫囑啦！他也有向中監報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：署長，這個問題已經問了很多次，本席告訴你，只要本席擔任立法委員一天，看到陳水扁出現在公開媒體，本席一定會問這個問題。請問，如果醫囑造假，醫生會有什麼樣的刑事責任？"],["周署長輝煌：如果造假，應該是偽造文書之類的，但我們尊重醫師的專業判斷啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：你們有沒有去查核過他的醫囑？您認為所有的醫生都不可能造假，是嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：我們尊重醫師的判斷。"],["翁委員曉玲：有沒有可能臺中監獄也在包庇他？如果今天典獄長包庇，或是署長包庇，可能會觸犯什麼樣的刑責？"],["周署長輝煌：我想我們心中都有一把尺，不會去做這些事情。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。但本席要告訴您，相關刑法的法律追溯時效是很長的，除非你們有信心民進黨政府會一直執政，時間會超過20年，到時你們就不會有責任，否則你們現在的所作所為，大家都在記錄。"],["周署長輝煌：臺中監獄一定是依據保外醫治的審核基準，按照規定辦理。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來本席要再說另外一個議題。有關偵查期間的羈押時間是否過長的問題，不僅學界在討論，其實實務界也在討論這個議題。當然，這次柯文哲的事件又讓大家重新檢視，現在就刑事訴訟法的規定，偵查當中的羈押期間，簡單來說就是司法檢察有權力提出的，最長4個月的羈押期是否過長？請問法務部曾經做過相關檢討嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：歷次有關羈押的修法，羈押期間一定會做相關法制上的研究，這是絕對會有的。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們看看韓國、日本的羈押時間，初次大概就是10天，必要時得延長10天，最長就是25天。韓國也是，初次是10天，延長的話不可以超過10天。相較起來，臺灣偵查期間羈押犯罪嫌疑人的時間非常長，這已經侵害犯罪嫌疑人的人權，如果從人權保障角度來說的話，其實臺灣在這方面是落伍的。","本席相信大家應該都很清楚，其實羈押制度常常會成為偵查機關取得自白而惡用的手段，理論上在案件未確定之前應該要做無罪推定，而且要更重視犯罪嫌疑人的人身自由保障。本席希望法務部好好檢討，現在偵查當中的相關羈押規定是不是合理，和世界潮流及其他國家相比較，我們是不是規範過度，違背比例原則。"],["黃次長謀信：羈押期間的長短涉及不同的偵查制度，不可一概而論。事實上我們相關的羈押規定，歷次很多大法官釋字都有做出一些解釋，羈押時間的長短是一個原因，另外就是應該著重羈押要件的嚴格審查，還有進行羈押審核時，要給予閱卷等相關程序上的保障，事實上後來司法院大法官解釋之後，我們相關的修法也都朝這個方向保障，檢討申請羈押的一些流程。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，這個部分要一併檢討。最後，本席很快說一下有關律師職前訓練的事情。本席要談的是，有關律師職前訓練，到底誰才是主要負責者？依照現行的律師法規定，律師職前訓練是由全國律師聯合會辦理。2019年修法的時候，理由寫的非常清楚，為了落實律師的自律、自治精神，明定律師職前訓練是由全國律師聯合會自行辦理。什麼叫自行辦理？錢該由誰出？由法務部出嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：這一條是109年修法的時候修正，因為律師法做了非常大幅度的變動，當時這一條在律師法裡面有特別規範，施行日期另外由行政院定之，所以這一條到目前為止，要由行政院訂定時間才會生效。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們到目前為止都沒有定施行期間？"],["黃次長謀信：我們已經報行政院，請行政院核定它的施行日期。"],["翁委員曉玲：你們什麼時候報的？這是109年修正的，到現在為止這個條文還沒有正式施行。"],["黃次長謀信：這一條是指要由全聯會辦理這件事情，立法當時就有意的，交由行政院另行公告施行期間，因為……"],["翁委員曉玲：請問次長，是因為行政院還沒有公告嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我們已經報行政院，希望行政院能夠趕快公告。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以從109年到現在，你們都沒有提請行政院儘速公告？"],["黃次長謀信：109年律師法做了非常大幅度的修正，我們必須要給律師界……"],["翁委員曉玲：本席現在只說這一條。所以當時法務部……"],["黃次長謀信：對，沒有錯。我們當時是要讓律師界有一些時間去適應新法的適用，因為整個變革太大了，所以當時是有意的把施行時間往後延。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以6年了，全律會還沒有辦法自行辦理。現在律師職前訓練這筆費用一直都還是由法務部支出，由全民的納稅錢支付，是嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：在公告之前是的。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以每年三百多萬元，6年總共支出一千八百多萬元，我們一直在幫全律會支付，難怪全律會那些理事長、理監事這麼支持民進黨，都是賴清德後援會的律師成員。本席認為這真的是非常、非常不負責任的做法，謝謝今天次長告訴本席，原來這個條文到現在還沒有正式施行。","這次審查預算時，坦白說當時本席就覺得很奇怪，為什麼是由法務部編列這筆預算。如果律師職前訓練是由法務部主辦的話，不見得要委託全律會辦理，可以委託大專院校，也可以委託法官學院、司法官訓練所，為什麼一定要委託全律會？原來你們到目前為止一直還在幫他們付這筆錢。"],["黃次長謀信：109年立法的時候，這一條的立法目的就是這樣定的，因為……"],["翁委員曉玲：立法目的不就是要全律會自己辦理嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：對，我是說施行日期。"],["翁委員曉玲：要自己負責經費嘛！對不對？只是這6年都沒有正式啟用這個條文，這6年期間所有的經費都是法務部編列公務預算支應。"],["黃次長謀信：這個是法條的設計。另外律師本身其實也有公益色彩、在野法曹的地位，法務部是律師的主管機關，從一個主管機關的角度去看，當時立法有意這麼定，我們就尊重立法者的決定。"],["翁委員曉玲：非常謝謝今天次長告訴我這些，本席終於知道為什麼那麼多律師這麼支持民進黨政府，這麼支持賴清德，都是賴清德後援會的成員，也難怪人家說律師的「律」應該改成綠色的「綠」，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。不好意思，因為我們剛剛有宣告，翁委員質詢結束之後休息5分鐘。謝謝，休息5分鐘。","休息（11時30分）","繼續開會（11時35分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請陳培瑜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","柯建銘","王義川","吳思瑤","黃國昌","王鴻薇","沈發惠","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00011"}}},{"id":"159115","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159115","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f2c23c282c4e55ab4e83d902c8d6dd6c2ff1cdb1affc83ff4a515b23fefa1fd695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:14:08 - 11:25:08","影片長度":"00:11:00","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:14:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:25:08+08:00","duration":660,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.0853437500000003,"end":5.076593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.13971875,"end":6.4772187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.523468750000001,"end":7.7428437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.164718750000002,"end":8.181593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.230968750000002,"end":16.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.31534375,"end":16.973468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.973468750000002,"end":17.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.15909375,"end":29.207843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.609718750000003,"end":23.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.06534375,"end":23.082218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.410343750000003,"end":34.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.67534375,"end":38.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.68721875,"end":42.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.21846875,"end":42.235343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.555968750000005,"end":44.260343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.69909375,"end":50.672843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.16221875,"end":53.845343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.99721875,"end":65.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.97846875,"end":67.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.30721875,"end":75.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.01596875,"end":69.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.57221875,"end":73.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.46221875,"end":117.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.25784375,"end":88.23659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.41784375,"end":89.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.48534375,"end":91.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.31596875000001,"end":94.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.36534375000001,"end":102.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.75284375000001,"end":106.36034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.42221875000001,"end":126.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.88471875,"end":127.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.06596875000001,"end":139.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.08284375000001,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.56784375,"end":129.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.14159375,"end":129.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.19971875000002,"end":135.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.82409375,"end":135.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.27909375000002,"end":140.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.29596875000001,"end":148.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.45159375,"end":143.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.92346875,"end":148.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.34534375,"end":149.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.02034375000002,"end":171.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.03721875000002,"end":149.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.36596875,"end":152.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.79159375,"end":155.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.09846875000002,"end":164.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.50721875000002,"end":165.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.13909375,"end":174.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.46346875,"end":194.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.17596875,"end":179.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.39034375,"end":184.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.27909375000002,"end":194.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.93721875,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.03409375,"end":196.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.10159375,"end":196.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.20284375,"end":199.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.67096875000001,"end":198.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.35846875000001,"end":218.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.33721875,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.24784375000002,"end":205.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.16221875000002,"end":213.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.57909375000003,"end":219.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.03471875000002,"end":238.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.61221875,"end":224.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.32346875000002,"end":237.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.62659375,"end":271.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.97471875000002,"end":252.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.20659375000002,"end":253.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.27659375,"end":264.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.42721875,"end":275.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.93721875,"end":276.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.50659375000004,"end":280.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.15596875,"end":282.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.46784375000004,"end":291.78284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.39971875000003,"end":286.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.39034375,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.03096875,"end":297.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.04784375,"end":297.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.46971875,"end":297.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.48659375,"end":297.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.67221875,"end":304.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.96221875000003,"end":320.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.03346875,"end":308.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.33534375,"end":320.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.48721875,"end":326.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.03909375,"end":334.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.61159375,"end":337.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.68721875,"end":383.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.20534375,"end":342.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.58346875,"end":352.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.61721875,"end":352.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.81971875000005,"end":352.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.76034375,"end":354.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.02534375000005,"end":360.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.66534375000003,"end":369.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.49846875000003,"end":383.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.90346875,"end":400.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.83096875,"end":388.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.15159375,"end":389.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.18534375,"end":389.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.06971875000005,"end":400.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.08659375,"end":400.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.55909375000005,"end":400.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.67721875,"end":406.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.95471875000004,"end":422.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.66534375000003,"end":423.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.57659375000003,"end":425.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.66909375,"end":432.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.53721875,"end":437.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.56159375000004,"end":439.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.50659375000004,"end":444.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.80971875,"end":444.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.50159375000004,"end":452.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.70409375,"end":447.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.04534375000003,"end":448.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.35721875,"end":466.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.09471875,"end":456.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.39846875,"end":456.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.44909375000003,"end":456.49971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.49971875000006,"end":456.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.63034375,"end":457.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.98471875,"end":458.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.43909375000004,"end":466.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.69221875000005,"end":474.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.70909375,"end":466.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.26471875000004,"end":477.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.17159375000006,"end":477.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.63971875000004,"end":485.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.65159375,"end":484.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.81159375000004,"end":485.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.96346875,"end":489.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.08534375000005,"end":489.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.11909375000005,"end":498.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.75471875000005,"end":499.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.97409375,"end":502.02846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.02846875000006,"end":509.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.28909375,"end":509.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.82471875000005,"end":510.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.55034375,"end":526.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.0847187500001,"end":520.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.8515937500001,"end":529.0959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.8215937500001,"end":531.6272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.6272187500001,"end":532.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.25159375,"end":534.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.76596875,"end":543.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.4565937500001,"end":544.6884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.8784687500001,"end":554.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.03284375,"end":555.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.5053437500001,"end":567.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.8415937500001,"end":566.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.97596875,"end":575.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.7265937500001,"end":570.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.1315937500001,"end":571.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.05534375,"end":576.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.5990937500001,"end":579.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.75034375,"end":580.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.27721875,"end":584.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":585.00284375,"end":586.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.65659375,"end":589.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.5547187500001,"end":595.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.0053437500001,"end":600.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.20284375,"end":604.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.9197187500001,"end":618.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.22284375,"end":608.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.76971875,"end":619.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.5122187500001,"end":619.5459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.57971875,"end":620.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.3897187499999,"end":623.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.1865937499999,"end":624.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.23284375,"end":633.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.25284375,"end":641.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.76284375,"end":636.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.78721875,"end":650.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":641.9897187500001,"end":642.8503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.67221875,"end":656.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.87346875,"end":656.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.9072187500001,"end":658.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.99159375,"end":657.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.2022187500002,"end":660.9740937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.146,"end":4.791,"text":"現在主席有請總裁楊總裁請"},{"start":16.52,"end":37.999,"text":"黃委員長總幹長我想今天大家都很關心就看到央行的報告非常的完整但是接下來台灣面對的可能很多新的挑戰那主要是昨天總預算案覆議沒有完成所以電價包括撥補的錢可能沒有辦法到位台電"},{"start":39.887,"end":67.303,"text":"3月28號要開電價審議委員會總裁去年此時因為當時3月21號央行禮監事會預計電價可能會調漲所以形成高通膨的預期所以提高了半碼那這一次下個禮拜央行又要開禮監事會了那你認為電價會在你的禮監事會有可能有做所謂升息的打算嗎"},{"start":70.166,"end":89.319,"text":"升息是由我們的理事來決定的那基本上我們去年12月的時候我們是估測說我們的通膨就是說是CPI是1.89還不到2所以有沒有可能在電價調漲之後會超過2"},{"start":97.585,"end":102.289,"text":"所以通膨可能會比我們預期的高不過我總覺得就那個來講的話我們的通膨是慢慢再下來的"},{"start":115.78,"end":138.235,"text":"因為前一陣子因為疫情的關係因為有物料的關係因為其他的相關戰爭的關係所以看起來你有很大篇幅在說川普新政我想請問總裁因為全世界都不知道川普下一步會怎麼做所以其實是一個高度不確定他的新政你認為說他會舒緩通膨還是加劇通膨"},{"start":141.76,"end":168.641,"text":"就一般市場來看的話市場大部分都會認為是它會加劇通膨因為加了關稅嘛加了關稅不太可能不漲價然後美國人民的生活可能更辛苦但是它又要課高關稅讓美國人民不用繳稅這個政策實在是有點特別但是一樣如果說會加劇通膨加劇通膨的情況下台灣也會受到影響"},{"start":169.341,"end":195.495,"text":"因為我們的關稅也會被他加然後我們也可能要加他的關稅啊是嗎對我們的通膨的影響美國如果說他加關稅那事實上呢我們先我們報告也有講到就是說他現在我們比較在我們的那個第幾頁這邊我們也談到他加徵特別是對對我們的那個什麼我們的所以對我們的通膨有沒有影響"},{"start":196.956,"end":217.757,"text":"基本上我們在這邊影響不大你認為影響不大接下來就是我們的預期的經濟成長是3點多那美國看起來有很多的人說他美國川普也說他可能會經過正痛期不排除下修那請問一下我們的經濟成長率有可能受到影響而下修嗎"},{"start":219.419,"end":223.722,"text":"我們的經濟成長率以目前是3.14%國內外的機構是差不多3.04%如果說美國的經濟下修的時候,台灣的經濟也會受到影響"},{"start":238.712,"end":256.702,"text":"第二個部分就是最近最熱門的話題也是大概我將全世界的經濟市場都受到很大的影響是3月6號川普簽署了行政命令把美國政府要求他成立比特幣的成為戰略儲備這是前所未有的所以我想問一下總裁"},{"start":257.682,"end":274.289,"text":"對台灣來說對央行來說我們一直把虛擬貨幣當成一個高投資高風險的相關的所謂的商品交易現在美國這樣子的做法你認為我們要怎麼樣去看待未來對於比特幣對於虛擬貨幣央行的立場"},{"start":278.554,"end":305.58,"text":"我覺得我跟委員報告還是你還是認為它是高風險我到目前為止然後沒有辦法成為正常的運作但是對一個全世界最大的美國它把它變成戰略儲備這是一個很大很大的變革所以我們要怎麼去看待如果說就這個戰略儲備的這個定義來看的話戰略儲備就是因為它要有信心它才會儲備在那邊跟黃金一樣"},{"start":307.82,"end":325.525,"text":"對啦這個東西是虛的他幹嘛儲備表示美國已經把它定性成為一個可以讓人民或者是在戰爭的時候他可以拿來安定人心的東西我們是不是這樣想的還是我們還是把它當成你們只是投機的商品"},{"start":325.905,"end":342.517,"text":"到目前為止呢我也不是說比特幣這是投機的我們只是說它是一個價格波動非常大的當它進入了所謂美國戰略儲備之後它其實現在的價格是回跌第二個"},{"start":343.157,"end":364.574,"text":"因為放在那裡大家反而對於虛擬貨幣要有新的認識我說立場很簡單我們不可能自外於世界所以總裁這是一個未來的世界它必須要被正視接下來中金管會也會成立虛擬資產的專法在台灣的虛擬資產管理會往前走一步所以我必須要現在這個時間點請央行的總裁"},{"start":368.897,"end":371.399,"text":"在虛擬貨幣已經成為美國戰略儲備的同時我們怎麼樣去面對這個我們從來未知的世界尤其是戰略儲備將來是不是在台灣我們開放了虛擬資產交易平台以後"},{"start":384.088,"end":405.562,"text":"所有的業者他必須要做法幣的儲備一樣要做虛幣的儲備但是虛幣如果我們沒有相關的存款保不像我們有存保公司它可能將來會產生所謂的市場的混亂甚至倒閉所以虛擬的儲備可能也是我們將來必須要走的路同樣的央行這邊"},{"start":407.031,"end":413.813,"text":"可以協助或幫忙金管會要求這些未來的虛幣業者他們除了儲蓄實體的貨幣之外也必須儲備所謂的他們的虛幣而儲備虛幣就成為一個很重要"},{"start":423.897,"end":437.698,"text":"維持市場秩序的重要的工作就像當年很多銀行倒閉 擠兌所以成立了存保公司總裁 你認為將來台灣有沒有必要有可能要成立虛幣的存保公司"},{"start":439.879,"end":466.929,"text":"委員事實上我覺得委員的分析是沒有錯這是一定會來的只是什麼時候到我們要面對這個議題我們要面對這個議題所以我希望總裁從今天開始研議這個議題第二個虛幣要開始開放在台灣管理了他們業者已經要正式合法登記了接下去一定會發生有人倒閉了虛幣沒辦法付的時候我們怎麼辦如果"},{"start":467.529,"end":476.6,"text":"美國政府已經做了所謂的貨幣儲存戰略儲備它一定有它的市場意義跟價值台灣面對開放的市場"},{"start":478.723,"end":502.58,"text":"世界的競爭我們不可能置外於這個世界好嗎這也是可能總裁必須面對這些我們從來沒有碰過的問題是是沒有錯沒有錯而且呢我也想我希望你在一兩個月之內告訴我一下你們跟金管會有沒有針對這邊相關未來開放市場以後這些問題可能我們現在都要做好準備好好"},{"start":503.881,"end":525.715,"text":"我們目前我們是來協助他把這個專法通過了以後一定會發生倒閉的狀況下沒有辦法兌現的時候那時候的消費者權益的保護現在就必須要開始準備加上川普已經把它列為世界上面重要的儲備貨幣我覺得我們不能"},{"start":529.918,"end":554.057,"text":"小看這件事 好不好因為它比一般的貨幣更好貨幣呢 美金可以一直不斷的印美鈔不斷的印但是虛幣有它的穩定性因為它的總量是管制的 好嗎第二個 現在全世界國際清算銀行都要求各國希望大家都能夠用AI掌握經濟資訊請問這是央行現在正在做的事嗎"},{"start":555.086,"end":575.455,"text":"人工智慧人工智慧事實上就人工智慧來講我們各個產業對AI的應用事實上如火如荼的在所以我們也算是登上了我們也是中央銀行也是不會有任何的落後人工智慧你大概也跑不掉了你沒有應用的話將來就是輸給人家第三個部分時間暫停我們請財經公司"},{"start":585.056,"end":589.704,"text":"最近LiPay已經要申請電子支付了"},{"start":590.934,"end":618.272,"text":"所以接下去我們財經公司有建制共同支付的TWQR是不是LiPay這麼大的支付系統也應該趕快加入跟委員報告我們希望他加入希望他加入因為他現在正在申請走程序還有一段時間但是財經公司可以先去完成這件事情我們希望LiPay成為你們的系統之一才不會變成你們有一個又獨立的在外面好嗎"},{"start":619.032,"end":641.129,"text":"是的第二個你們現在推廣到日本跟韓國有沒有考慮去南向跟委員報告有的但是就是我們的推廣的方式就根據國人跟在出國的新南向是我們政府的重要政策新加坡都已經跟泰國印度馬來西亞印尼都已經做好簽約我們目前只有日本跟韓國"},{"start":641.809,"end":659.321,"text":"你跟南向什麼時候要推啊跟委員報告我們現在也正跟新加坡在磋商當中我們希望今年會有一個結果把你的工作跟時程告訴我們因為國人喜歡去東北亞但是也很喜歡去東南亞是的好嗎好 謝謝總裁好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":844,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時14分）謝謝主席，有請總裁。"],["主席：楊總裁請。"],["楊總裁金龍：黃委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：總裁早。我想今天大家都很關心的就是看到央行的報告非常完整……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是接下來臺灣面對的可能是很多新的挑戰，主要是昨天總預算案覆議沒有完成，所以電價撥補的錢可能沒有辦法到位，台電3月28日要開電價審議會，總裁，去年此時，當時3月21日央行理監事會因為預計電價可能會調漲，形成高通膨的預期，所以提高了半碼，這一次下個禮拜央行又要開理監事會了，你認為在你的理監事會有可能因為電價有升息的打算嗎？不知道？"],["楊總裁金龍：升息是由我們的理事來共同決定的，基本上去年12月的時候，我們是估測我們的通膨就是CPI是1.89……"],["黃委員珊珊：還不到2。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。然後核心是1.79……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以有沒有可能在電價調漲之後會超過2？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，會接近2，可能會升高1%。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以通膨可能會比我們預期的高？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過我總覺得我們的通膨是慢慢在下來的。"],["黃委員珊珊：前一陣子因為疫情的關係，因為原物料的關係，因為其他相關戰爭的關係。現在看起來你有很大的篇幅在說川普新政，我想請問總裁，因為全世界都不知道川普下一步會怎麼做，所以其實是一個高度不確定的……"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：他的新政，你認為他會舒緩通膨，還是加劇通膨？"],["楊總裁金龍：就一般市場來看的話，市場大部分都會認為他會加劇通膨。"],["黃委員珊珊：加劇通膨，因為加了關稅嘛……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：加了關稅，不太可能不漲價，然後美國人民的生活可能會更辛苦……"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是他又要課高關稅，讓美國人民不用繳稅，這個政策實在是有點特別。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。委員講的沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是如果說會加劇通膨，在通膨加劇的情況下，臺灣也會受到影響，因為我們的關稅也會被他加，我們也可能要加他的關稅，是嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：對我們的通膨的影響，美國如果加關稅，事實上在我們的報告裡面也有談到，他加徵關稅，特別是對我們的……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以對我們的通膨有沒有影響？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上，影響不大。"],["黃委員珊珊：你認為影響不大？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，影響不大。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來就是我們預期經濟成長率是百分之三點多，那美國的經濟成長率，有很多的人說，川普也說，可能會經過陣痛期，不排除下修。那請問央行，我們的經濟成長率有可能受到影響而下修嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們的經濟成長率目前預估是3.14%，國內外的機構預估是差不多3.04%，如果美國的經濟下修，也許臺灣的經濟也會受到影響。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。第二個部分就是最近最熱門的話題，全世界的經濟市場都受到很大的影響，3月6日川普簽署了行政命令，要求美國政府將比特幣列為戰略儲備，這是前所未有的，所以我想問一下總裁，對臺灣來說，對央行來說，我們一直把虛擬貨幣當成一個高投資、高風險的商品交易，現在美國這樣子的做法，你認為我們要怎麼樣去看待未來比特幣等虛擬貨幣？央行的立場如何？還是你認為它還是高風險的，沒有辦法正常運作，但是全世界最大的國家美國把它變成戰略儲備，這是一個很大很大的變革，所以我們要怎麼去看待？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，如果就戰略儲備的這個定義來看的話……"],["黃委員珊珊：戰略儲備就是因為他對它要有信心，才會儲備在那邊，跟黃金一樣，如果這個東西是虛的，他幹嘛儲備？表示美國已經把它定性成為一個可以讓人民儲備，或者是在戰爭的時候可以拿來安定人心的東西，我們是不是這樣想呢？還是我們還是把它當成只是投機的商品？"],["楊總裁金龍：到目前為止，我也不是說比特幣是投機的，我們只是說它是一個價格波動非常大的商品……"],["黃委員珊珊：價格波動非常大，當它列入了美國的戰略儲備之後，其實現在的價格是回跌。","第二個，因為放在那裡，大家反而對於虛擬貨幣要有新的認識，我覺得立場很簡單，我們不可能自外於世界……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以總裁，這是一個未來的世界，它必須要被正視……"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來金管會也會成立虛擬資產的專法，在臺灣的虛擬資產管理會往前走一步，所以我必須要在現在這個時間點，請問央行的總裁，在虛擬貨幣已經成為美國戰略儲備的同時，我們怎麼樣去面對這個我們從來未知的世界，尤其是戰略儲備，將來是不是在臺灣，我們開放了虛擬資產交易平台以後，所有的業者必須要做法幣的儲備，一樣要做虛幣的儲備，但是對於虛幣，如果我們沒有相關的存保公司，可能將來會產生市場的混亂，甚至倒閉，所以虛擬的儲備可能也是我們將來必須要走的路。同樣的，央行這邊可以協助或幫忙金管會，要求這些未來的虛幣業者，他們除了儲蓄實體的貨幣之外，也必須儲備虛幣，而儲備虛幣就成為一個維持市場秩序的重要工作，就像當年，很多銀行倒閉、擠兌，所以成立了存保公司。總裁，你認為將來臺灣有沒有必要、有可能要成立虛幣的存保公司？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員，事實上，我覺得委員的分析沒有錯……"],["黃委員珊珊：這是一定會來的，只是什麼時候到。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，我們要面對這個議題……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒錯，所以我希望總裁從今天開始研議這個議題。","第二，虛幣要開放在臺灣管理了，業者已經要正式合法登記了，接下去一定會發生，有人倒閉了，虛幣沒辦法付的時候，我們怎麼辦？如果美國政府已經做了虛幣儲存戰略儲備，它一定有它的市場意義跟價值，臺灣面對開放的市場、世界的競爭，我們不可能自外於這個世界，好嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，我想……"],["黃委員珊珊：這也是總裁可能必須面對這些我們從來沒有碰過的問題。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯，沒有錯，而且我也想……"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望你在一、兩個月之內告訴我，你們跟金管會有沒有針對未來開放市場以後這些相關問題，可能我們現在都要做好準備。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，好。目前我們是來協助他把這個專法……"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，專法通過了以後，一定會發生倒閉的狀況下沒有辦法兌現的問題，那時候消費者權益的保護，現在就必須要開始準備，加上川普已經把它列為世界上重要的一個儲備的貨幣，我覺得我們不能小看這件事，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為它比一般的貨幣更好，一般貨幣，像美金，美鈔可以一直不斷地印，但是虛幣的穩定性好，因為它的總量是管制的，好嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。好。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，現在全世界國際清算銀行都要求各國能夠用AI掌握經濟資訊，請問，這是央行現在正在做的事嗎？人工智慧。"],["楊總裁金龍：事實上，就人工智慧來講，我們各個產業對AI的應用正如火如荼地在展開……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們也算是跟上了。"],["楊總裁金龍：我們也是，中央銀行也是。"],["黃委員珊珊：不會有任何的落後？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，對，這一點沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。因為人工智慧你大概也跑不掉啦，你沒有運用的話，將來就是輸給人家。"],["楊總裁金龍：委員講的沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。第三個部分，時間暫停，我們請財金公司。"],["主席：請林董事長。"],["黃委員珊珊：最後一個小問題，最近LINE Pay已經要申請電子支付了，所以接下去我們財金公司有建置共同支付的TWQR，LINE Pay這麼大的支付系統，是不是也應該趕快加入？"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告，我們希望它加入。"],["黃委員珊珊：希望它加入？"],["林董事長國良：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：因為它現在在申請，走程序還有一段時間，但是財金公司可以先去完成這件事情，我們希望LINE Pay成為你們的系統之一，才不會變成有一個獨立的在外面，好嗎？"],["林董事長國良：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，你們現在推廣到日本跟韓國，有沒有考慮去南向？"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告，有的。但是就是我們的推廣方式是根據國人……"],["黃委員珊珊：新南向是我們政府的重要政策，新加坡都已經跟泰國、印度、馬來西亞、印尼簽約，我們目前只有跟日本、韓國簽約，你們南向什麼時候要推啊？"],["林董事長國良：跟委員報告，我們現在也正跟新加坡在磋商當中，我們希望今年會有一個結果。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，把你的工作跟時程告訴我們，因為國人喜歡去東北亞，但是也很喜歡去東南亞，好嗎？"],["林董事長國良：好，是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員的質詢。","下一位請林思銘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-2","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","黃珊珊","林思銘","李坤城","王世堅","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","邱志偉","陳冠廷","李柏毅"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00004"}}},{"id":"159114","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159114","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f882b6c4a49c743416b0a9b5bba3c53abff1cdb1affc83ff4a6b46b472f9b5d055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:16:29 - 11:23:50","影片長度":"00:07:21","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國機國造交機進度及勇鷹高教機失事後檢修情況」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:16:29+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:23:50+08:00","duration":441,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-3-35-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.54971875,"end":2.2078437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.68034375,"end":4.6715937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.29596875,"end":6.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.759718750000001,"end":8.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.78909375,"end":10.341593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.662218750000001,"end":11.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.012218750000002,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.74159375,"end":17.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.981593750000002,"end":20.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.61846875,"end":21.563468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.934718750000002,"end":23.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.63471875,"end":25.562843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.00159375,"end":27.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.63409375,"end":30.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.38471875,"end":33.494093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.99596875,"end":36.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.46409375,"end":37.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.830968750000004,"end":40.345343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.353468750000005,"end":43.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.602218750000006,"end":45.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.28096875,"end":49.204718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.525343750000005,"end":50.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.938468750000006,"end":53.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.77784375,"end":55.313468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.02221875,"end":56.798468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.82784375000001,"end":60.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.72596875000001,"end":63.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.99971875,"end":68.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.74159375,"end":71.83409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.40346875,"end":75.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.22159375000001,"end":78.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.41096875000001,"end":80.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.21659375,"end":82.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.79846875000001,"end":84.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.08096875000001,"end":87.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.91596875,"end":89.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.64971875,"end":91.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.72971875,"end":92.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.40846875000001,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.45909375000001,"end":95.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.16784375,"end":101.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.28096875,"end":103.66034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.16659375,"end":105.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.84971875000001,"end":110.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.01784375000001,"end":112.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.40159375,"end":113.38034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.71784375,"end":114.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.37596875000001,"end":114.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.49409375,"end":114.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.51096875,"end":114.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.93284375,"end":114.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.38409375,"end":116.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.40096875,"end":116.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.41784375,"end":116.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.43471875,"end":117.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.64534375000001,"end":120.68721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.90659375000001,"end":121.32846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.80096875000001,"end":125.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.61034375000001,"end":130.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.38596875000002,"end":135.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.35159375,"end":136.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.07284375,"end":139.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.00909375,"end":141.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.08471875,"end":143.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.19409375,"end":144.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.49346875,"end":147.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.85596875000002,"end":149.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.74596875,"end":150.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.67409375,"end":153.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.69096875,"end":151.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.15034375000002,"end":154.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.24284375000002,"end":157.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.76159375,"end":158.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.13284375,"end":158.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.14971875,"end":158.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.14534375000002,"end":159.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.19596875000002,"end":159.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.60096875000002,"end":161.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.68534375000002,"end":160.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.79034375,"end":168.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.05534375000002,"end":170.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.94096875000002,"end":171.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.24471875,"end":172.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.83534375000002,"end":172.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.08409375000002,"end":177.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.63596875000002,"end":190.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.24596875,"end":192.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.54096875000002,"end":195.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.47721875000002,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.03409375,"end":201.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.60284375,"end":208.04909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.58471875,"end":221.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.76846875,"end":225.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.63284375,"end":255.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.74221875,"end":257.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.57721875000004,"end":259.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.11721875,"end":261.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.59346875,"end":263.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.52971875000003,"end":275.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.27159375,"end":270.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.76846875,"end":276.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.78534375000004,"end":277.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.33346875,"end":283.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.37909375000004,"end":283.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.52659375,"end":285.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.61096875000004,"end":285.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.74159375,"end":288.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.06159375000004,"end":291.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.05284375,"end":293.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.39846875,"end":296.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.80721875,"end":303.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.49409375000005,"end":304.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.97909375,"end":307.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.71284375000005,"end":307.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.70846875,"end":309.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.14284375,"end":312.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.02846875,"end":313.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.39534375,"end":315.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.69471875,"end":316.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.31909375000004,"end":324.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.75659375000004,"end":328.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.00909375000003,"end":331.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.12721875,"end":329.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.75971875000005,"end":332.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.19409375000004,"end":336.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.32846875,"end":338.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.26909375,"end":341.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.85909375,"end":345.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.00221875,"end":346.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.28471875,"end":367.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.68659375000004,"end":370.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.65659375,"end":376.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.67659375000005,"end":379.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.89596875,"end":383.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.27909375,"end":384.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.92034375000003,"end":386.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.55284375,"end":390.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.08409375,"end":390.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.05846875000003,"end":394.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.41659375,"end":395.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.99034375,"end":395.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.42909375000005,"end":401.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.05659375000005,"end":405.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.40221875000003,"end":413.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.29971875,"end":413.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.31659375000004,"end":413.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.21096875,"end":416.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.41721875,"end":425.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.08659375,"end":428.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.68534375,"end":431.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.28846875000005,"end":431.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.41471875,"end":434.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.11471875,"end":439.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.48534375,"end":441.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.60346875000005,"end":440.97471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.357,"end":17.371,"text":"謝謝主席的請問一下我先回一詢問請問列席發言室幾分鐘列席啊列席委員發言室也是幾分鐘那我看好像是5加10好像5加10我能不能比照辦理"},{"start":19.005,"end":45.499,"text":"我當稍委的時候我當主席的時候一定要維持會議的公平性會議的流暢性不能有些人講到這個昏天暗地講到天荒地老都沒有任何動作我覺得對其他委員不公平我在立法院質詢啊雖然是行政跟立法是監督跟被監督的關係但基本上互動是以理相待"},{"start":47.415,"end":71.648,"text":"論證是在以理論證道理的理不是說時間長不是說大小聲就行要講道理我要拜託這個主席是不是以後時間控管我在南部我還要搭高鐵高鐵因為它是五加十我的高鐵跑掉了我要對我的鄉親我的選民如何交代"},{"start":73.424,"end":92.533,"text":"你要考慮我們苦衷啊你們都在台北我是在高雄還有一個半小時的車程我早上來很早就來我要搭六點半的高鐵來這邊我這苦苦等待一個五分鐘的質詢就前面還有個五加十那我請問一下主席我能不能比照辦理"},{"start":95.507,"end":117.188,"text":"我不會為難你啦,我不會這樣子時間到就時間到那我們就針對你現在要持續的議題一個原則,以理相待,用理論證今天部長已經先離開嘛那代表是楊長赤嗎不是,中部部中部部長"},{"start":118.68,"end":144.657,"text":"大概是幾個問題請教 好吧我們這個 弄了兩個問題就是這次詠英高教基到底是設計的問題還是維修的問題這個很專業以我的常識 以我的專業我沒有辦法去做判斷一定要有個小組小組到現在組成這個調查專案小組大概才經過今天是"},{"start":145.546,"end":172.086,"text":"今天是3月13還不到一個月調查報告就出來了初步的調查報告初步調查報告結論就是是因為什麼是因為機械因素沒有都還沒有可能的機械因素因為目前飛機的前端殘殼剛打牢起來所以是初步的報告初步的報告結論是什麼初步的報告都還沒有"},{"start":173.137,"end":201.164,"text":"那今天還沒有報告那我們報告的意義在哪裡好像委員報告今天是因為大院開的題目是失事後的檢修情況所以我們今天是針對這個失事後的檢修情況來做報告那檢修的狀況如何呢目前交機是47架嘛47架扣掉一架46架其他46架都檢修的過程檢修的結果怎麼樣"},{"start":201.69,"end":221.007,"text":"就像在報告的內容裡面我們現在目前檢修的是36架然後情況都正常我們針對了4類12項那個是把它爐裂出來特別檢查項目檢查的結果是正常的"},{"start":221.837,"end":240.379,"text":"那最終的調查報告什麼時候會出來呢?剛剛副部長有跟您報告的昨天下午我們把機身前段撈起來了然後黑盒子找到了相信現在打撈的工作還在持續進行如果把關鍵的"},{"start":242.581,"end":263.047,"text":"這個零組件都打撈上來之後我們會送到運安會然後實施專案小組會共同來做逐項的做分析所以沒有辦法排除是機械的因素沒有在人因環境也沒有辦法排除是設計的因素現在目前還沒辦法是"},{"start":264.625,"end":285.092,"text":"那我希望說這個報告出來能夠有一個很客觀的原因是 絕對那後面這個相關的這個當然沒有人會希望說類似的情況再發生是特別是交際沒有多久那你後續還有47加66 還有9加1交 對不對那我第二個問題請教一下副部長就是說AE3要太儲"},{"start":292.096,"end":311.958,"text":"A3在飛就是在空軍官校我每天都看空軍官校的A3在飛那初教基那未來就是接著高教基航太產業不管是賴總統或者是蔡總統或者賴總統都是國家重點的產業對不對所以航太產業它的最重要的依靠就是"},{"start":313.666,"end":341.799,"text":"國機國造 這個副長您同意嗎 同意 國機國造我們從這個高校機從永營號開始過去當然有一些辯論 你到時候外購還是要要這個製造所以到最後還是有國造所以我覺得這個方向 這個決策是正確的我們才能累積這個設計或者研發或者人才這個各方面的人量把這個延續到初教級 初教級的目前建案規劃是什麼時候呢"},{"start":343.905,"end":369.173,"text":"出教機建案的規劃時程像委員報告稍早之前部長有在這邊講了T3式出教機的部分我們會規劃在122到124年才會陸續接受那現在我們已經有向國防部提出了整個建案的這個程序那後續剛剛委員所這個查詢的不管是國內外"},{"start":370.734,"end":385.789,"text":"的傷情或者這個成熟的技術等等我們會做做這個相關的評估您的評估一定是從122年開始才有這個建案的需求不是才是有汰換的需求"},{"start":386.621,"end":400.34,"text":"就是T3是才122年開始陸續接受所以這種狀況之下你既然是在接受前幾年嘛對不對對 是的然後你規劃你預計是這個接受前三年好了你119"},{"start":403.343,"end":431.77,"text":"現在是114五年之後才會建案建案之後還有相關的程序你要決定決策上是要外購還是要自製是的所以我覺得這個時程有沒有可能提早呢因為這牽涉到國內航太產業的發展我想請提供書面資料給我因為時間到了我必須遵守會議的規則這是一個好的模範如果每一個人都無價值啊立法院就亂了"},{"start":433.462,"end":437.926,"text":"我也可以五加十啊這不是一個夠格的國會議員該有的作為"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時16分）謝謝主席。我先會議詢問，請問列席委員發言時間是幾分鐘？列席啊！列席委員發言時間是幾分鐘？"],["主席：5分鐘。"],["邱委員志偉：那我看好像是5+10，好像是5+10，我能不能比照辦理？我當召委的時候，我當主席的時候，一定要維持會議的公平性、會議的流暢性，不能有些人講到昏天暗地、天荒地老，主席都沒有任何動作，我覺得對其他委員不公平。我在立法院質詢，雖然行政跟立法是監督跟被監督的關係，但基本上互動是以理相待，論證是在以理論證，道理的理，不是說時間長、不是說大小聲就贏，要講道理。","我要拜託主席，是不是以後時間控管，我在南部耶！我還要搭高鐵，因為他這個5+10，我的高鐵跑掉了，我要對我的鄉親、我的選民如何交代？你要考慮到我們的苦衷，你們都在臺北，我是在高雄，還要一個半小時的車程，我早上很早就來，我要搭6點半的高鐵，來這邊苦苦等待一個5分鐘的質詢，結果前面還有一個5+10。那我請問一下主席，我能不能比照辦理？"],["主席：我想……"],["邱委員志偉：我不會為難你啦，時間到就時間到。"],["主席：好，這個我們會了解，那我們就針對你現在要質詢的議題。"],["邱委員志偉：一個原則，以理相待，用理論證。","今天部長已經先離開了，那代表是楊常次嗎？"],["鍾副部長樹明：是鍾副部長。邱委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：鍾副部長，大概是幾個問題請教，我們就濃縮成兩個問題。這次勇鷹高教機失事到底是設計的問題，還是維修的問題？這個很專業，以我的常識、以我的專業，我沒有辦法做出判斷，一定要有個小組。組成的這個調查專案小組，今天是3月13日，還不到一個月，調查報告就出來了。"],["鍾副部長樹明：初步的調查報告。"],["邱委員志偉：初步調查報告的結論是因為什麼？是因為機械因素嗎？"],["鍾副部長樹明：沒有，都還沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：蛤？可能的機械因素？"],["鍾副部長樹明：因為目前飛機的前端殘骸剛打撈起來，所以要判斷。"],["邱委員志偉：那是初步報告的結論是什麼？"],["鍾副部長樹明：初步的報告都還沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：你們還沒有報告，那我們今天報告的意義在哪裡？"],["王參謀長德揚：向委員報告，今天大院開會的題目是失事後的檢修情況，所以我們今天是針對失事後的檢修情況來做報告。"],["邱委員志偉：好，那檢修的狀況如何呢？目前交機是47架嘛。"],["王參謀長德揚：是。"],["邱委員志偉：47架扣掉1架是46架，其他46架檢修的過程、檢修的結果怎麼樣？"],["王參謀長德揚：就像報告的內容提到的，我們目前檢修的是36架，情況都正常。我們針對4類12項特別臚列出來的檢查項目，檢查的結果是正常的。"],["邱委員志偉：那最終的調查報告什麼時候會出來呢？"],["王參謀長德揚：剛剛副部長有跟您報告了，昨天下午我們把機身前段撈起來了，黑盒子也找到了，現在打撈的工作還在持續進行，如果把關鍵的零組件都打撈上來之後，我們會送到運安會，然後這個專案小組會共同逐項的來做分析。"],["邱委員志偉：所以沒有辦法排除是機械的因素？"],["王參謀長德揚：沒有。在人因環境……"],["邱委員志偉：也沒有辦法排除是設計的因素？"],["王參謀長德揚：目前還沒辦法，是。"],["邱委員志偉：好，我希望這個報告出來能夠有一個很客觀的原因。"],["王參謀長德揚：是，絕對。"],["邱委員志偉：然後供後面相關的這個……，當然沒有人會希望類似情況再發生。"],["王參謀長德揚：是。"],["邱委員志偉：特別是交機沒有多久。"],["王參謀長德揚：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好，那你後續還有9架要交，對不對？"],["王參謀長德揚：嗯，不只。"],["邱委員志偉：還有9架要交。第二個問題請教副部長，AT-3要汰除，AT-3要飛都是在空軍官校，我每天都看空軍官校的AT-3在飛。初教機未來就是接著高教機，航太產業不管是在蔡總統或是賴總統，都是國家重點的產業，對不對？所以航太產業最重要的依靠就是「國機國造」，這個副部長您同意嗎？"],["鍾副部長樹明：同意。"],["邱委員志偉：好，國機國造我們從高教機從勇鷹號開始，過去當然有一些辯論，到底是外購還是要國造？到最後還是國造，我覺得這個方向、這個決策是正確的，我們才能累積設計、研發，或者人才各方面的能量，把這個延續到初教機，初教機目前建案規劃是什麼時候呢？初教機建案的規劃時程？"],["王參謀長德揚：向委員報告，稍早之前部長也有在這邊講，T-34初教機的部分，我們會規劃在122到124年才會陸續屆壽。現在我們已經有向國防部提出了整個建案的程序，後續剛剛委員所查詢的，不管是國內外的商情，或者是成熟的技術等等，我們會做相關的評估。"],["邱委員志偉：您的意思是從122年開始才有建案的需求……"],["王參謀長德揚：不是，我們……"],["邱委員志偉：還是一個汰換的需求？"],["王參謀長德揚：就是T-34是122年才開始陸續屆壽。"],["邱委員志偉：所以這種狀況之下，你建案是在屆壽前幾年嘛，對不對？"],["王參謀長德揚：對，是的。"],["邱委員志偉：好，你規劃、預劃是屆壽前三年好了，現在是114年，5年之後才會建案，建案之後還有相關的程序，你要決定決策上是要外購還是要自製？"],["王參謀長德揚：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：這個時程有沒有可能提早呢？因為這牽涉到國內航太產業的發展，我想請提供書面資料給我。"],["鍾副部長樹明：好。"],["邱委員志偉：因為時間到了，我必須遵守會議的規則，這是一個好的模範，如果每一個人都5+10，立法院就亂了，我也可以5+10啊！但這不是一個夠格的國會議員該有的作為。"],["主席：謝謝邱志偉委員的提示。請回座。","接下來請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","已登記質詢委員除不在場外，均已經發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有林憶君委員、王定宇委員、羅智強委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。委員口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-2","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳冠廷","林楚茵","陳永康","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","邱志偉","林憶君","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國機國造交機進度及勇鷹高教機失事後檢修情況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00002"}}},{"id":"159113","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159113","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fb976c045d1aa8c6cba53b8a5773cfe3dff1cdb1affc83ff4fb433ea9b5ad6db25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:12:20 - 11:23:35","影片長度":"00:11:15","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:12:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:23:35+08:00","duration":675,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.35471875,"end":10.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.79221875,"end":16.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.38284375,"end":17.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.98596875,"end":21.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.30596875,"end":26.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.676593750000002,"end":43.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.95659375,"end":47.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.955968750000004,"end":51.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.97221875,"end":55.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.88721875,"end":58.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.87409375,"end":72.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.34034375,"end":77.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.99346875,"end":80.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.11534375000001,"end":109.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.48221875,"end":117.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.17909375000002,"end":133.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.28221875,"end":147.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.15971875,"end":158.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.04721875,"end":167.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.67971875,"end":169.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.75096875,"end":172.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.20596875,"end":178.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.45846875,"end":181.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.80409375000002,"end":183.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.81659375,"end":184.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.05659375000002,"end":188.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.83659375000002,"end":192.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.50284375,"end":195.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.88659375,"end":197.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.61596875,"end":200.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.39159375000003,"end":208.47096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.31096875,"end":206.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.74096875,"end":209.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.20909375000002,"end":215.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.60909375,"end":225.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.73409375000003,"end":228.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.66596875000002,"end":230.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.72909375,"end":244.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.21221875,"end":254.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.70409375000003,"end":256.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.62784375,"end":260.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.55971875,"end":265.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.71096875,"end":267.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.02721875000003,"end":267.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.04409375,"end":267.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.17909375,"end":267.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.31409375000004,"end":267.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.02284375,"end":269.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.60471875,"end":271.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.90409375,"end":274.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.42221875,"end":277.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.88534375,"end":285.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.65659375,"end":325.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.12346875000003,"end":330.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.94971875000005,"end":332.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.90284375000005,"end":337.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.22284375000004,"end":352.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.98846875000004,"end":357.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.57409375000003,"end":362.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.18534375,"end":441.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.19784375,"end":363.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.41284375000004,"end":364.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.03784375000004,"end":444.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.19346875,"end":456.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.03971875,"end":481.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.47471875,"end":482.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.74034375,"end":486.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.51159375000003,"end":490.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.92909375000005,"end":490.21596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.86971875,"end":493.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.62909375000004,"end":494.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.82721875000004,"end":494.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.77221875000004,"end":522.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.85221875,"end":542.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.68034375,"end":572.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.4265937499999,"end":574.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.9284687500001,"end":583.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.31096875,"end":598.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.62096875,"end":609.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.8603437500001,"end":639.3234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.9309687500001,"end":640.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.99409375,"end":641.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.47909375,"end":643.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.4197187500001,"end":646.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.9340937500001,"end":653.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.7178437499999,"end":662.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.9990937500002,"end":673.71471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.426,"end":7.606,"text":"蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":26.772,"end":50.808,"text":"那青年這一個世代呢對國家有多麼的重要我想這個不是我們在這邊要討論的話題而是說我們真的要來立一部基本法讓我們的青年他們的整個權益能夠有所保障那我想我們昨天的記者會有看到立法院已經有18個版本出來"},{"start":52.049,"end":79.711,"text":"那次長您在剛才的詢答中也不斷的提到這個會期會有院版出來那特別加上2023年當時我們的賴慶德總統以總統候選人的身份參加青年論壇他也特別提到未來會積極推動青年基本法那時至今日走到現在呢我們看到行政院人總他的一個書面報告是這麼說的"},{"start":81.192,"end":108.848,"text":"他說他不建議這部法要有一個專責機關他認為只要朝向強化既有部會辦理青年事務的方向辦理就可以了好那我在這邊有看到今天好多好多的部會在這個當中我希望等一下我點到的部會能夠在座位上大聲一點回答就是有沒有"},{"start":109.648,"end":132.602,"text":"你們的青年政策相關的科目經費編列在你們的部會當中來請教一下外交部有沒有相關經費"},{"start":148.246,"end":157.15,"text":"好 謝謝希望其他部會就是比照這樣就好了我只想知道有沒有青年相關政策或科目或經費財政部"},{"start":166.069,"end":184.613,"text":"好有嗎謝謝經濟部有抒發部有內政部好有嗎住宅的部分衛福部好謝謝文化部有好勞動部好有金管會好有謝謝財政部"},{"start":194.569,"end":197.075,"text":"王國念過了嗎 那就是內政部都有了齁 好 清發署"},{"start":204.619,"end":227.841,"text":"對 我們很多經費全部都是支持好 謝謝好 社長你有看到了我們的青年政策散落在各個部會都有但是呢人總他又認為說不應該設一個專責機關可是我們又有這種跨部會的政策那我是直接幫你挑啦我這樣講喔"},{"start":229.724,"end":253.98,"text":"一部法要催生主管機關很重要他可以決定一部法能不能很快的催生出來那沒有辦法的時候就是要找一個奶爸奶媽那我認為現在教育部就是奶爸奶媽那現在你很辛苦這個奶爸奶媽要來負責催生這部法但是你總也要在法裡面告訴我們你會希望放在哪裡權責機關"},{"start":257.679,"end":274.833,"text":"要幫他找到未來的生父生母要養他的目前我們的長安規劃是教育部目前是教育部那國發會有沒有來來 國發會你們有沒有意願要來當生父生母好好"},{"start":289.687,"end":304.025,"text":"好 謝謝那我了解所以現在看起來教育部就是要扛起來對不對好 謝謝市長那我之所以這樣子講我也是希望幫忙釐清所以呢我希望兩週內各個部會剛才提到的"},{"start":306.007,"end":332.49,"text":"能夠給我一份報告讓我們整合一下我們的青年政策有哪些那我在這邊也要特別就是跟市長提因為我們都提到青年基本法裡面會有一個青年事務會報或青年國事會議會有青年代表我知道賴總統他過去在擔任台南市長的時候他推動一個族群主流化後來他當行政院長也有推"},{"start":333.956,"end":356.713,"text":"那我要講的是我們過去只有聽到性別主流化那現在有一個族群主流化現在推青年積分法又要來一個青年主流化也就是在我們的所有政策當中我們要去考慮性別的比例 族群的比例 青年的比例那請問一下這些青年代表我看到我們通常都會想到性別比例會有族群比例嗎"},{"start":358.881,"end":386.746,"text":"我想這個代表應該要涵蓋各個應該要涵蓋嘛我現在是提醒您因為您剛剛說教育部自己要來催生所以我特別提醒那為什麼我要在別人提醒您看一下這幅圖這是我們過去我在做課程的時候針對太陽之子排灣族所做的一個他的整個教育的階段他的教育的哲學我相信您應該有興趣所以我稍微念一下"},{"start":387.566,"end":400.035,"text":"排灣族自認為是太陽之子從嬰孩蓄日東升一直到他的老年太陽西沉他有一個過程那0到5歲呢我們叫做從夢的年紀要多聽神話故事培養他的創造力5到15歲呢是從腳的年紀也就是要透過做中學讓他熟悉整個社會制度事物那15到40"},{"start":412.905,"end":424.85,"text":"我們稱為從守的年紀也就是在這個階段他要學習怎麼樣成家立業他要工作然後到了40到60歲呢叫做從老的階段就是要來指導別人60到80歲呢是從新的一個年紀要來說故事給小朋友聽然後80歲以後呢就是安享天年我現在要講的是請問我們的青年基本法你認為青年是幾歲到幾歲"},{"start":442.059,"end":455.871,"text":"我們目前草擬的是18歲到35歲那我們排灣族是認為是15到40歲蠻接近的好那這樣的一個如日中天就是我們講的血氣方剛來我們來看一下次長"},{"start":457.616,"end":485.743,"text":"這個是112學年度的資料國小階段 國中 高中 大學的出債學率你可以看到原住民國小 國中 高中都還好國民義務教育可是到了大學他是56%的出債學率跟一般的全國平均是91.6%你覺得差距大不大相當大相差很大那您知不知道可能的原因是什麼"},{"start":489.175,"end":490.02,"text":"目前我覺得"},{"start":491.906,"end":513.055,"text":"好 我直接跟您說是 我跟您說很多的原住民學生到了大學階段他會因為要去打工家裡沒有辦法支撐他 他要打工要嘛他就要去做就學貸款所以這樣的時候他很辛苦可是我要講的就是教育部去年上路的減免私校的學雜費他有一個叫做已獲政府其他相關的學雜費減免不予減免可是您看一下"},{"start":521.378,"end":540.895,"text":"這個表格很好 我們看到我們的低收入學生可以3.5萬再加2萬我們的中低收入學生可以3.5萬再加1.5萬可是原住民學生有學雜費減免 沒有辦法享受去年教育部上路的這個美德 沒辦法"},{"start":543.057,"end":567.405,"text":"這麼好的一個政策原住民學生沒辦法所以我要請您再看一個表格這個一樣這個是112全年度原住民的國小學生跟全體國民學生你看他的低收入戶我們的一般國民是2.14%中低收入戶是2.56%你看看原住民學生國小階段的低收入戶11.65%跟中低收入戶7.82%你覺得差距大不大"},{"start":573.834,"end":597.997,"text":"非常大我跟您說這個還不是最高因為原住民有原保地所以中低收入戶他的資格會被剔除所以如果這個沒有價值的原保地沒有辦法到銀行貸款的原保地你再把這些人數加上來這個比例相當的高所以我最後只想要跟部長說我們政府的美意啊為德不足啊"},{"start":598.738,"end":612.771,"text":"跟委員報告我們補助原住民的同學公校的原住民學生我們每年兼免4萬4到6萬8所以其實都是比3萬5更高很多我希望你到辦公室我再算一次給你聽因為今天時間不夠我只是要提到當我們的初在學歷"},{"start":617.455,"end":645.295,"text":"跟我們的一般國民差30%的時候30幾%的時候有30幾%的學生是低於要去中輟輟學要去打工要去離開學校因為經濟壓力負擔沒有辦法認真讀書也讀不下去離開有30幾%的孩子我們要講當這樣的政府的政策下去不換寡換不均急劇加大不會改善這個現象"},{"start":647.017,"end":673.433,"text":"所以我希望次長您回去再好好思考那我是希望說我要給一個報告我希望再重新檢討針對能夠獲得其他補助的不得再領這個部分連低收入戶都可以可是為什麼原住民學生不可以我想這個部分兩週內再給我報告或到辦公室報告好不好好 謝謝次長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":507,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時12分）謝謝主席，有請葉次長。"],["主席：有請葉次長。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長好。我們小時候都會提到未來的主人翁，這個未來的主人翁就是我們所謂的青年。青年這個世代對國家有多麼的重要，我想並不是我們在這邊要討論的話題，而是真的要立一部基本法，讓青年的整個權益能夠有所保障。我們從昨天的記者會可以看到立法院已經有18個版本出來，次長在剛才的詢答中也不斷提到這個會期會有院版出來，再加上2023年當時賴總統以總統候選人的身分參加青年論壇也特別提到未來會積極推動青年基本法。時至今日、走到現在，我們看到行政院人總的書面報告表示，不建議這部法要有一個專責機關，它認為只要朝向強化既有部會辦理青年事務的方向辦理即可。今天看到好多好多的部會都有出席，我希望等下被我點到的部會能夠在座位上大聲的回答，有沒有青年政策相關科目經費編列在你們的部會當中。","請教外交部？"],["宋副參事永福：外交部報告，外交部雖然是職司外交政策的制定，促進國與國之間的關係，以及我們參與國際組織的目的是為國家制度發展創造有利環境……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有沒有相關經費？"],["宋副參事永福：至於外交部協助青年的國際接軌，歷來均有相關的計畫，所以我們在國際會議交流有編列相關預算……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。希望其他部會比照這樣的方式即可，我只想知道有沒有青年相關政策、科目或經費。","財政部？"],["楊簡任稽核博淳：財政部國庫署報告，我們是有新青安的部分。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有嘛！謝謝。","經濟部？"],["李署長冠志：經濟部有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有。","數發部？"],["邱簡任技正繼賢：報告，數發部有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有。","內政部？"],["唐專門委員根深：內政部有住宅補貼。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有嘛！住宅的部分。","衛福部？"],["魏副署長璽倫：有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。","文化部？"],["魏司長秋宜：有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。","勞動部？"],["施主任秘書淑惠：我們有青年就業基金。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。","金管會？"],["梁專門委員欽洲：金管會有相關的措施。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，有，謝謝。","財政部？念過了嗎？內政部呢？都有了，好。青發署？"],["陳署長雪玉：我們很多經費都是支持青年的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。","次長，你看到了，我們的青年政策散落在各個部會，但是人總卻認為不應該設一個專責機關，然而我們又有這種跨部會的政策，我就直接幫你挑啦！一部法要催生，主管機關很重要，它可以決定一部法能不能很快的催生出來，沒有辦法的時候就是要找一個奶爸奶媽，我認為現在教育部就是奶爸奶媽，現在你們很辛苦，身為奶爸奶媽要負責催生這部法，但你也得在法裡告訴我們究竟希望將權責機關放在哪裡，未來要找到養它的生父生母。"],["葉次長丙成：目前我們的草案規劃是教育部、目前是教育部。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：教育部？"],["葉次長丙成：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：國發會有沒有來？國發會，你們有沒有意願要當生父生母？"],["蘇專門委員愛娟：我們的職責是有關國家政策……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝，我了解。現在看起來教育部就是要扛起來，對不對？好，謝謝次長。我之所以這樣講也是希望幫忙釐清，因此，我希望剛剛各個部會所提的能在2周內給我一份報告，讓我們整合一下到底有哪些青年政策。","此外，我也要特別向次長提出，因為我們都提到青年基本法有一個青年事務會報或青年國是會議，當然也就會有青年代表，我知道賴總統過去擔任臺南市長時推動過族群主流化，後來在他擔任行政院長時也有推動，而我要講的是，過去我們只聽過性別主流化，現在有一個族群主流化，如今要推動青年基本法又來一個青年主流化，因此在所有政策中就必須考慮到性別的比例、族群的比例及青年的比例。請問一下，我們看到這些青年代表通常都會想到性別比例，是否也會有族群比例呢？"],["葉次長丙成：我想這個代表應該要涵蓋各個族群。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：應該要涵蓋嘛！我現在是提醒你，因為你剛剛說教育部自己要來催生，所以我才會特別提醒。為什麼我要在這邊提醒？你看一下這幅圖，這是過去我設計課程時針對太陽之子排灣族所做的整個教育階段、教育哲學，我相信你應該有興趣，所以我稍微念一下。排灣族自認為是太陽之子，從嬰孩旭日東昇一直到老年太陽西沉有一個過程，0到5歲我們稱為從夢的年紀，要多聽神話故事，培養他的創造力；5到15歲是從腳的年紀，也就是要透過做中學，讓他熟悉整個社會制度事務；15到40歲稱為從手的年紀，在這個階段他要學習如何成家立業、要工作；40到60歲稱為從老的階段，也就是要來指導別人；60到80歲是從心的年紀，要說故事給小朋友聽；80歲之後就是安享天年。請問，你認為我們青年基本法的青年是幾歲到幾歲？"],["葉次長丙成：我們目前草擬的是18歲至35歲。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們排灣族認為是15歲到40歲，滿接近的，正是一個如日中天、血氣方剛的年紀。","次長，我們來看一下，這是112學年度的資料，國小、國中、高中及大學的粗在學率，你可以看到原住民學生在國小、國中及高中的階段都還好，因為是國民義務教育，但是到了大學卻只有56%的粗在學率，與一般全國平均的91.6%相比，你認為差距大不大？"],["葉次長丙成：相當大。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：相差很大，你知不知道可能的原因是什麼？"],["葉次長丙成：可能經濟因素是其中之一。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，我告訴你，很多的原住民學生到了大學階段，因為家裡無法支撐他而必須要去打工，不然就是要申請就學貸款，在這個時候可以說是相當的辛苦。我要講的是去年教育部上路的減免私校學雜費政策，其中有一個已獲政府其他相關學雜費減免者不予減免的規定，請你看一下這個表格，低收入戶學生可以領到3.5萬元再加2萬元、中低收入戶學生可以領到3.5萬元再加1.5萬元，但是原住民學生因為有學雜費減免，沒辦法享受去年教育部上路的美意，沒辦法！這麼好的一個政策，原住民學生沒辦法使用。因此我要請你再看一個表格，一樣，這是112學年度原住民國小學生與全體學生的比較，在低收入戶方面，我們的一般國民是2.14%，中低收入戶是2.56%，你再看看原住民學生，國小階段的低收入戶是11.65%、中低收入戶是7.82%，你覺得差距大不大？非常大！我告訴你，這個還不是最高的，因為原住民有原保地，所以中低收入戶的資格會被剔除，如果再把擁有沒價值的原保地、沒辦法去銀行貸款的原保地的人數加上來，這個比例會相當的高。最後我只想要告訴部長，我們政府的美意可說是為德不卒啊！"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，我們補助公校的原住民學生，每年減免4萬元到6萬8,000元，比3萬5,000元高很多。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個我知道，因為今天的時間不夠，我希望你能來我的辦公室，讓我再算一次給你聽。我只是要提出來，當我們的粗在學率與一般國民差距百分之三十幾的時候，表示有百分之三十幾的學生是要輟學、要打工、要離開學校，因為經濟壓力的負擔，沒有辦法認真讀書，也可能讀不下去而離開，有百分之三十幾的孩子面臨這樣的狀況。當政府這樣的政策下去，不患寡而患不均，級距加大不會改善這個現象，因此，我希望次長回去後再好好的思考，並給我一份報告，針對已獲得其他補助者不得再領的部分重新檢討，連低收入戶都可以，為什麼原住民學生不可以？針對這個部分，請在2周內給我一份報告或是到辦公室報告，好不好？謝謝次長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員，次長，請回。","接下來請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-2","speakers":["林宜瑾","黃捷","林楚茵","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","林德福","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","范雲","吳思瑤","邱志偉","陳培瑜","李坤城"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基\n本法草案」案；三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；四、審查委員吳思瑤等\n47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；六、\n審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法\n草案」案；八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；九、審查委員王美惠等17人\n擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十一、審\n查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十二、審查委員葛如鈞等19人擬具「青年基本\n法草案」案；十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十四、審查委員魯明哲\n等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；\n十六、審查委員葉元之等 20 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十七、審查委員林德福等 20 人擬具\n「青年發展基本法草案」案；十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案 (僅進行\n詢答)","agenda_id":"1142601_00009"}}},{"id":"159112","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159112","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fe412b01c87d07ab36de99780e8e59786ff1cdb1affc83ff42ea2eef765d06ad55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:13:36 - 11:22:41","影片長度":"00:09:05","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:13:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:22:41+08:00","duration":545,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.704093750000002,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.969718750000002,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.657218750000002,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.41534375,"end":25.090343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.292843750000003,"end":27.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.16159375,"end":31.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.85721875,"end":33.173468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.941593750000003,"end":32.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.814718750000004,"end":34.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.40534375,"end":34.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.89471875,"end":35.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.67096875,"end":36.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.649718750000005,"end":40.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.729093750000004,"end":43.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.500968750000006,"end":44.361593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.09971875,"end":47.297843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.60159375,"end":48.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.002218750000004,"end":51.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.71471875,"end":56.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.047218750000006,"end":58.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.16096875,"end":59.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.20284375000001,"end":63.430343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.97034375000001,"end":64.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.86471875000001,"end":67.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.34096875,"end":71.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.85096875,"end":72.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.50909375,"end":73.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.06159375,"end":74.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.97284375000001,"end":75.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.59284375,"end":77.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.65159375,"end":79.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.01409375,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.54096875,"end":87.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.56159375,"end":87.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.33784375,"end":90.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.35846875,"end":93.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.14284375000001,"end":95.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.91471875,"end":97.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.15909375000001,"end":102.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.69846875,"end":104.09909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.77409375,"end":106.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.27159375000001,"end":108.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.87471875000001,"end":109.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.71409375,"end":111.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.59159375,"end":112.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.36346875000001,"end":115.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.21534375,"end":119.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.21034375,"end":124.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.80034375000001,"end":126.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.38221875000002,"end":131.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.41534375,"end":135.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.92096875000001,"end":137.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.99659375000002,"end":140.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.47721875000002,"end":142.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.82721875000001,"end":143.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.49784375000002,"end":155.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.18409375000002,"end":155.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.88846875000002,"end":157.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.08659375000002,"end":159.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.63034375,"end":161.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.57096875000002,"end":164.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.18659375000001,"end":167.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.72159375,"end":170.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.72971875000002,"end":180.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.77909375000002,"end":184.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.50409375,"end":185.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.94284375,"end":185.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.66846875000002,"end":186.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.97221875000002,"end":194.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.36346875,"end":196.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.86096875,"end":202.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.12159375000002,"end":203.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.13846875000002,"end":210.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.15534375000001,"end":203.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.28471875000002,"end":213.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.93846875000003,"end":213.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.95534375000003,"end":216.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.55846875,"end":217.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.78596875000002,"end":221.51534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.31721875000002,"end":220.67159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.00471875000002,"end":223.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.96221875,"end":224.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.39659375000002,"end":228.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.99096875,"end":232.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.64846875,"end":235.04909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.58034375000003,"end":241.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.25471875000002,"end":242.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.30534375000002,"end":249.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.87784375,"end":254.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.34971875000002,"end":264.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.43784375,"end":258.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.79534375000003,"end":268.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.60909375,"end":270.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.50346875,"end":272.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.89971875000003,"end":273.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.65909375,"end":276.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.88221875,"end":279.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.27846875,"end":279.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.34596875,"end":279.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.34159375,"end":281.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.89409375,"end":282.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.97409375,"end":287.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.00784375,"end":283.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.42909375,"end":289.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.40784375000004,"end":290.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.82096875,"end":293.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.83784375,"end":291.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.06096875000003,"end":296.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.04784375,"end":298.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.81971875,"end":299.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.37659375000004,"end":300.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.09784375000004,"end":302.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.15659375,"end":304.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.18596875000003,"end":305.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.82284375,"end":309.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.92346875000004,"end":311.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.19346875,"end":310.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.72909375,"end":314.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.71159375,"end":315.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.57221875000005,"end":318.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.61409375,"end":319.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.26784375,"end":320.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.48284375000003,"end":322.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.22096875,"end":324.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.42721875,"end":333.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.93221875,"end":335.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.28221875,"end":337.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.34096875,"end":339.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.50096875,"end":341.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.62721875,"end":346.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.99784375,"end":349.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.42346875000004,"end":351.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.43159375000005,"end":353.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.08971875000003,"end":353.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.55346875000004,"end":358.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.79346875000005,"end":359.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.80596875000003,"end":360.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.74659375000005,"end":363.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.05409375000005,"end":365.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.01596875,"end":367.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.27721875000003,"end":370.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.56784375,"end":373.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.31846875,"end":376.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.25471875000005,"end":378.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.79034375000003,"end":380.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.13596875,"end":383.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.30846875000003,"end":386.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.94096875,"end":388.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.06721875000005,"end":392.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.30284375,"end":393.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.73721875,"end":395.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.01971875000004,"end":396.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.11659375000005,"end":399.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.33534375000005,"end":402.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.36034375,"end":404.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.25409375000004,"end":409.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.39284375000005,"end":413.11409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.93659375000004,"end":416.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.49721875,"end":421.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.80034375,"end":423.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.42034375000003,"end":425.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.85471875,"end":426.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.28909375,"end":430.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.74409375000005,"end":433.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.27534375000005,"end":434.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.29221875,"end":436.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.33409375,"end":437.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.53221875,"end":437.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.75159375000004,"end":438.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.66284375000004,"end":439.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.03409375,"end":439.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.01284375,"end":441.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.76784375000005,"end":453.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.96846875000006,"end":457.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.31409375000004,"end":460.78596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.96721875000003,"end":462.47346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.28346875000005,"end":465.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.16909375,"end":467.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.60346875000005,"end":469.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.99971875000006,"end":470.38784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.82659375000003,"end":471.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.07096875,"end":476.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.76659375,"end":478.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.30221875,"end":478.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.26409375000003,"end":482.23409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.38159375000004,"end":486.03096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.17846875000004,"end":489.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.70971875000004,"end":490.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.24971875000006,"end":490.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.65034375000005,"end":492.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.73034375000003,"end":494.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.32909375,"end":497.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.21034375000005,"end":500.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.40846875000005,"end":501.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.78784375000004,"end":504.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.50909375000003,"end":505.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.11221875,"end":507.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.57596875,"end":510.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.73596875000004,"end":513.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.97596875,"end":515.3428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.54096875,"end":517.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.9753437500001,"end":519.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.2197187500001,"end":523.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.92784375,"end":526.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.4128437500001,"end":527.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.50971875,"end":532.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.65659375,"end":534.4453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.82096875,"end":541.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.54971875,"end":542.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.25846875,"end":542.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.1528437500001,"end":543.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.5747187500001,"end":543.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.62534375,"end":544.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.33409375,"end":544.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.4353437500001,"end":544.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.9584687500001,"end":545.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.05971875,"end":545.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.1103437500001,"end":545.17784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.925,"end":40.13,"text":"主席有請主委來 有請主委好 陳主委好你在公平會也很多年了今年第五年第五年了 對所以這個非常了解所以應該怎麼樣去積極的"},{"start":42.029,"end":62.082,"text":"上次在這個宴會這個被提名人來做這個詢問的時候我也特別提到台灣為以開發國家備詐金額最高的國家這個議題啊這張是2023年11月天下雜誌的一個報導2023 現在已經2025了"},{"start":74.113,"end":86.375,"text":"這張照片 我在這邊也引用了很多次那最新的 詐騙國家危機 全國遭詐500億事實上是502億了 這個是2025年2月17號聯合報的一個新聞從這個報導上就可以發現"},{"start":98.206,"end":126.416,"text":"如果我們從這個近五年詐欺案件案件數跟財損來做這樣的一個看的話從2020年一直往上到2024年去年502.5億詐騙詐欺的案件財損逐年增加那以去年去年三大詐騙的手法這個假投資"},{"start":128.87,"end":133.874,"text":"4萬3千零15件遭詐騙的金額372.2億假投資算不算你們公平會的主管的業務"},{"start":144.537,"end":166.937,"text":"目前假投資如果是純粹是要涉及騙錢、詐騙財務的話因為它本身是一個刑事的詐騙行為所以我們會以給減掉單位來進行候選我是說就它是不是屬於公平教育法裡面的詐欺、詐訴或者說公平教育法這裡面有這個好"},{"start":172.876,"end":183.531,"text":"事業亦不得為其他族裔影響教育制度及期望或顯示公平之行為是不是屬於這個假投資是不是屬於這個"},{"start":185.56,"end":213.303,"text":"不一定因為25條他必須要足以影響教育秩序那這一條的實行基本上主要還是會從他對市場競爭的影響的角度那我想我知道委員關切的是消費者被詐騙這個消保的關切部分那這個部分所以有可能是其他消保會的或者是其他的部會的業務是也有可能是你們的業務"},{"start":213.991,"end":241.15,"text":"要看案件的形態事實所以這個部分其實要去做分析這樣的話才可以去針對現行的法律法規有沒有需要去檢討修正的之處假網路拍賣呢這是有沒有屬於你們的業務還是大部分屬於你們的業務"},{"start":242.358,"end":267.13,"text":"假的網路拍賣一樣如果沒有涉及到商品或財貨的交換單純就是一個吸金或是基本上大部分都有那如果涉及到網路拍賣拍賣啊那當然商品啊有些就是拍賣但是其實錢拿了以後東西都沒有給所以如果這種情況的話純粹就是詐騙的行為那會比較是屬於形式上的一個案件的問題任何案件"},{"start":269.673,"end":297.568,"text":"都會都有可能涉及到刑事既然是假的當然都會涉及到刑事我現在那是最後端的就所謂的試詐嘛怎麼樣去試詐讓人民試詐到底是誰的業務你們也有嘛我們有參與這個行政院的那個分割這個試詐最重要你試詐的話才能夠避免被詐騙"},{"start":299.472,"end":324.254,"text":"所以這個部分是一個非常非常嚴重的非常非常嚴重對台灣人民而言真的是非常這個金額之大然後量之多你看這個假網路拍賣各時百千萬 上萬一百件26.2億所以這金額都很大"},{"start":326.485,"end":353.272,"text":"所以日常教育已成詐騙的溫傳這個我也在這邊引用了很多次尤其是網路的部分所以這個剛才提到了這個公平教育法公平教育法已經從上一次修正到現在已經七年多了沒有修正從上一次修正到現在七年多了都沒有修正所以以"},{"start":355.575,"end":377.777,"text":"以這六年多來講將近已經七年了七年那個時空改變那個完全不一樣了完全不一樣所以這個修法是確實有它的必要性我在這邊也提了好幾次上次在"},{"start":379.7,"end":391.263,"text":"立法院院會詢問的時候我也特別建議你要做修法這個公平教育法106到6月14號到現在7年多這個裡面議告了2023年6月6號議告這個建議我以前也是老公務員"},{"start":408.291,"end":433.639,"text":"我當過常務副主委我都會親自去拜訪跟這個政務委員說明說明這個他的急迫性需要性要去說明然後早一點安排何況2023到現在政務委員都換了你們負責的政務委員是哪一位"},{"start":435.179,"end":460.475,"text":"呃 劉委員 劉靜卿蛤?劉靜卿委員所以新的嗎?對那對嘛變藥劑說明的跟委員報告 我們有跟劉委員開過會了就是根據這個修法的草案在去年我們開過會那這個有關修法的整個草案目前是在行政院啦我們後續會持續地 積極地跟行政院這邊來來聯絡 協商 還有溝通儘快能夠把這個法要積極的是是是我以前當副主委的時候"},{"start":463.308,"end":490.535,"text":"這個林王毅我都溝通說明過後來都以行政院會就這樣說出去了是包括之前的吳哲成政務委員工程會的主任委員是為了原住民族土地及海域法我也去說明說明之後他開了三天三夜去審查所以要做積極的去說明而且"},{"start":491.704,"end":518.857,"text":"而且因為從2023到6月6號預告到現在2024一年多了可能還有新的不是可能一定嘛應該有新的因為經過去年一整年的一個這麼大的一個差距那個詐騙的金額所以還可以新增"},{"start":520.31,"end":540.925,"text":"新增新的要修正 既然還在行政院所以這個部分請主委尤其是我們公民會的同仁要積極的謝謝委員的提點我們會積極跟行政院這邊來持續溝通就我們的版本看有什麼問題我們後續 委員建議我們會納入參考謝謝加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":608,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時13分）主席，有請主委。"],["主席：有請主委。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：鄭委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委好，你在公平會也很多年了。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：今年第5年。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以非常瞭解，對於應該怎麼積極地……上一次在院會的被提名人進行詢問的時候，我也特別提到，臺灣為已開發國家中被詐金額最高的國家，這張是2023年11月天下雜誌的報導，現在已經是2025年了，這張照片我在這邊也引用了很多次，詐騙國家危機，全國遭詐500億元，事實上是502億元，這是2025年2月17日聯合報的新聞，從這個報導可以發現，如果我們從近五年詐欺案件數和財損來看的話，從2020年一直往上，到去年2024年502.5億元，詐騙詐欺的案件財損逐年增加。去年三大詐騙手法中，假投資4萬3,015件，遭詐騙金額372.2億元。假投資算不算你們公平會主管的業務？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：目前假投資如果是純粹涉及騙錢、詐騙、詐取財物的話，本身是一個刑事的詐騙行為，我們會移給檢調單位來進行後續處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我是說它是不是屬於公平交易法裡面的詐欺、詐術，「事業亦不得為其他足以影響交易秩序之欺罔或顯失公平之行為」，假投資是不是屬於這個？不一定？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：因為第二十五條必須要足以影響交易秩序，這一條的實行基本上主要還是會從它對市場競爭影響的角度，我知道委員關切的是消費者被詐騙，這個消保關切的部分。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以有可能是其他消保會或其他部會的業務？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：也有可能是你們的業務嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：要看案件的型態。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：其實這個部分要去作分析，才可以針對現行的法律、法規有沒有需要去檢討修正之處？假網路拍賣呢？有沒有屬於你們的業務？還是大部分都屬於你們的業務？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：假的網路拍賣一樣，如果沒有涉及到商品或財貨的交換，單純就是吸金……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：基本上大部分都有，網路拍賣啊！當然有商品啊！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：有些是拍賣，但是錢拿了以後，東西都沒有給，如果是這種情況的話，純粹就是詐騙的行為，比較是刑事案件的問題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：任何案件都有可能涉及到刑事，既然是假的，當然都會涉及到刑事，那是最後端，就是識詐，讓人民識詐到底是誰的業務，你們也有嘛！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們也有參與行政院的分工。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：識詐最重要，識詐才能夠避免被詐騙，所以這個對臺灣人民而言是一個非常非常嚴重的，這個金額之大、量之多，你看這個假網路拍賣3萬100件，26.2億元，金額都很大。所以日常交易已成詐騙的溫床，我也在這邊引用了很多次，尤其是網路的部分。","剛才提到了公平交易法，公平交易法從上一次修正到現在已經七年多沒有修正，這七年時空改變得完全不一樣了，修法確實有其必要性，我在這邊也提了好幾次，上次在立法院院會詢問的時候，我也特別建議你要修法，公平交易法從106年6月14日到現在七年多了，你們2023年6月6日預告草案，我以前是老公務員，我當過常務副主委，我都會親自去拜訪政務委員說明急迫性、需要性，早一點安排，何況2023到現在政務委員都換了，負責的政務委員是哪位？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：劉鏡清政務委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：是新的嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：更要去說明啊！"],["陳代理主任委員志民：跟委員報告，我們有跟劉委員開過會了，針對這個修法的草案我們在去年開過會，目前草案在行政院，後續會持續積極的跟行政院來聯絡、協商和溝通，儘快把方案……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要積極。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我以前當副主委的時候，林萬億我都溝通說明過，後來行政院會也都這樣送出去了，包括之前的吳澤成政務委員，工程會的主任委員，為了原住民族土地及海域法，我也去說明，說明之後，他開了三天三夜去審查，所以要積極的去說明，而且從2023年6月6日預告到現在2024年已一年多了，可能還有新的，不是可能，一定、應該要有新的，因為經過去年一整年詐騙金額這麼大的差距，所以還可以新增，既然還在行政院，這個部分請主委和公平會的同仁要積極。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：謝謝委員的提點，我們會積極跟行政院來持續溝通，就我們的版本，看看有什麼問題，委員的建議我們會納入參考，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝，加油。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","下一位請陳超明委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-2","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","陳培瑜"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00003"}}},{"id":"159111","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159111","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f7a2eb7c884c3e8ebba53b8a5773cfe3dff1cdb1affc83ff4294d796a60933aae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:02:12 - 11:12:15","影片長度":"00:10:03","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n四、審查委員吳思瑤等47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n六、審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n九、審查委員王美惠等 17 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十、審查委員郭昱晴等 18 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十一、審查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十二、審查委員葛如鈞等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十三、審查委員李坤城等 19 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十四、審查委員魯明哲等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十六、審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n十七、審查委員林德福等20人擬具「青年發展基本法草案」案。\n十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案。\n(第十八案如未獲議事處來函，則不予審查；僅進行詢答)\n(本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知)）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:02:12+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:12:15+08:00","duration":603,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.9797187500000004,"end":4.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.464718750000001,"end":6.156593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.35034375,"end":9.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.763468750000001,"end":12.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.547843750000002,"end":17.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.36534375,"end":21.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.00659375,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.89346875000001,"end":108.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.63846875,"end":113.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.80659375,"end":126.59346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.84659375000001,"end":148.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.51409375,"end":152.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.46284375000002,"end":158.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.84159375000002,"end":165.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.23721875,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.94096875000002,"end":171.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.76346875000002,"end":185.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.14721875,"end":174.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.62221875,"end":189.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.84159375000002,"end":186.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.14909375000002,"end":205.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.36596875,"end":205.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.88909375,"end":211.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.45346875,"end":214.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.35159375,"end":217.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.29221875000002,"end":227.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.27096875,"end":220.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.63284375,"end":234.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.66096875000002,"end":235.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.36534375000002,"end":236.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.80409375000002,"end":239.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.23409375000003,"end":240.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.25096875000003,"end":243.04784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.14096875,"end":274.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.11034375,"end":288.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.40346875,"end":335.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.56346875,"end":318.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.94096875,"end":383.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.59534375000004,"end":397.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.60596875000005,"end":405.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.94221875000005,"end":423.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.31909375000004,"end":436.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.58721875000003,"end":444.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.28596875000005,"end":447.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.97784375000003,"end":448.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.26471875000004,"end":449.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.66534375000003,"end":515.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.52784375000005,"end":466.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.54034375000003,"end":466.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.03221875,"end":478.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.55096875000004,"end":479.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.27971875,"end":531.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.77721875,"end":517.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.8234687500001,"end":519.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.0590937500001,"end":522.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.08409375,"end":524.4890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.8172187499999,"end":541.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.77846875,"end":536.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.6259687500001,"end":552.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.7522187500001,"end":542.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.36346875,"end":549.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.93159375,"end":555.2859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.29846875,"end":566.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.42784375,"end":569.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.03096875,"end":568.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.07284375,"end":575.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.18159375,"end":590.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.94784375,"end":586.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.93034375,"end":590.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.16659375,"end":592.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.9722187500001,"end":592.2590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.2590937500001,"end":593.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.59221875,"end":598.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.2334687499999,"end":594.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.51596875,"end":597.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.7178437499999,"end":601.97909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.005,"end":17.406,"text":"好 葉刺好 等我一下喔好 就是說 請問一下葉刺有聽過這句話嗎imagine yourself in our world"},{"start":23.086,"end":47.28,"text":"這是在2012年溫哥華水族館講的一句話這句話後來被政部長引用在中山大學校長任內對所有的學生勉勵的一句話這句話其實是一個非常重要的概念我們必須要去試想我們在這樣子的環境之下我們可能未來需要什麼樣的科技輔助或是教育所以我想這整個重點回應到說如果我們今天要去回應青年的需求"},{"start":47.76,"end":66.407,"text":"我們應該要非常了解青年的需要以及傾聽青年的聲音所以我想今天我們就針對青年的基本法來做一些更細緻的討論主要就是說在這個草案上面我發現三個問題所以我今天會從這三個面向來跟次長討論第一個就是青年的定義問題第二個是專責機關第三個就是經費的部分"},{"start":69.966,"end":87.14,"text":"首先在青年的定義問題上面我想因為其實現在世界各國對於青年的定義上面大概就是19到34歲但是我們今年在這個青年政策白皮書裡面我們去邀請的對象是15到40歲"},{"start":89.362,"end":105.897,"text":"所以我想要了解因為如果我們從35歲以下來看以台灣來說我們大概是21%的人口規模所以我們今年在這個收集意見的時候卻框到40歲所以我想要了解就是說到底未來我們在講青年基本法我們的上限是要框到40歲還是35歲想要請教次長的意見"},{"start":108.983,"end":126.262,"text":"報告委員 目前我們的草案是18歲到35歲18歲到35歲 OK 好了解那我想問一下就是說再來第二個部分就是專責機關的部分就是說雖然說我們現在其實是有這個親資會但是它其實並沒有一個相關的法源"},{"start":127.203,"end":149.82,"text":"那目前青年署是在教育部的職長以下嘛可是以三級機關來說他的這些職責啦還有業務啦以及青年問題涉及非常非常的廣嘛就業啦還有這個那個求學啊還有居住的問題其實都在這個層面所以顯然這個是不是現在這個清罰署"},{"start":152.782,"end":173.583,"text":"很難去解決對應到這些經濟安全心理健康跟社會正義的問題所以想要了解就是說是否有機會來去爭取提到二級機關呢市長您的想法是跟委員報告目前的規劃就是整個專責單位就是教育部在教育部然後但是我們就是剛講了嘛"},{"start":174.104,"end":188.632,"text":"大家最在乎的如果以這個最在乎的問題經濟安全嘛這是也是不屬於在經濟部的心理健康社會正義這都不屬於在教育部的那一個清法署三級機關要如何的去協調各個部會我想這還是一個非常貞節的一個問題"},{"start":189.172,"end":211.576,"text":"那跟委員報告 因為這個很多委員的條文裡面都有提到建議說行政院應該定期來召開青年事務的這個協調匯報那所以我們大概就是跟跨部會有關的事情就會在行政院的那個跨部會的匯報裡面來處理 來追蹤所以變成是說還是維持在清發署但是會有行政院主責的一個匯報來去協調各部會嗎"},{"start":216.94,"end":228.31,"text":"應該還是教育部然後跟其他部會有關的事情我們就會透過這個匯報來進行那現在不曉得說次長你們現在是不是有規劃說大概多久會舉辦一個這樣類似的匯報呢現在是有相關的規劃嗎"},{"start":237.178,"end":250.129,"text":"目前的規劃大概是兩三個月兩三個月再辦一次一季會辦一次就對了好了解那在接下來還是會牽涉到就是經費編列的問題就是說教育部的預算大概佔全體的預算是10到11%"},{"start":251.77,"end":274.049,"text":"那這個在114年的預算裡面有0.53是來自於這個清發數那其中還是因為有這個圓夢基金所以我們現在投注在青年發展的預算其實是只有1%不到當然我知道其他部會也有相關的資源像是我們的勞動部就有投入30億在青年就業所以"},{"start":275.151,"end":288.099,"text":"我想請問未來這個根據基本法我們是不是要訂定根據各個相關的業務來幫忙清法署爭取預算或者是要求其他二級機關來增加青年發展的預算呢"},{"start":289.574,"end":317.83,"text":"我想這個關於這個因為當基本法訂了以後裡面有些哪些事情各個單位各個部會他應該要來負責要怎麼樣照顧青年的一旦訂到法律裡面他有這個法律的位階大家就一定要做我想基本法他目的就是要能夠確保說這些預算是一定會被花的那至於剛才提到說因為有很多的預算其實隱藏在很多像比如舉個例子我們拉近這個公私立大學的這個學雜費的這個差距"},{"start":319.371,"end":332.501,"text":"這個我們花了兩百億這其實都是花在青年的身上所以未來怎麼樣有一個更具體的把這些我們花在青年身上的這些經費能夠有一個更完整的一個數字化這個是一個比較能夠清楚的看到說我們國家"},{"start":334.102,"end":357.006,"text":"我想我希望就是說在未來行政院相關的版本我們可以看到相關的條文去清楚的列上各個部會各個機關需要如何的來支持這些相關的經費跟預算都應該要更具體我們才能夠知道到底有多少錢可以真正的來去支持我們青年的發展所以我希望這是次長未來在這個院版上面要來協助溝通跟努力"},{"start":357.546,"end":383.215,"text":"好謝謝那再來第二個問題其實是從青年教育就業的徒續賬戶方案那簡單來說我們是從106年開始推動每年有五千個名額那薪資外會補助一萬元至存款賬戶最多等於是參加這個方案的年輕人高中畢業生他最多三年可以多存36萬聽起來利益非常非常良好但是呢我們也可以看到說"},{"start":385.679,"end":404.325,"text":"這個計劃在歷次其實一直不停的在修正然後也因為第一年106年的時候只有774人媒合所以107年的預算就因此而做到部分的減劣那我想要從這張表最主要是想要強調就是說我們原本是預估5000人可是後來我們就一直在減少變成是800人"},{"start":405.985,"end":422.791,"text":"不確定說這是不是我們對這個計畫的信心不足不確定因為我自己也去調了這些相關的數字就發現說其實申請的人數是年年這是一個滾動三年的從106年開始因為它是一個最多可以到三年的計畫所以是用rolling三年的方式去累計"},{"start":424.392,"end":444.846,"text":"那從108年到111年我可以看到申請人數跟實際人數其實都是往上增加的喔可是我退出的人數的比例也是往上增加的所以我想要請次長了解一下可以說明一下嗎你們有沒有去做相關的研究跟了解因為我知道我們有青年職涯輔導團嘛為什麼退出的人數持續的在增加呢疫情"},{"start":450.044,"end":474.669,"text":"跟委員報告這個退出在111年那個退出比較多的時候其實是跟疫情這邊是有關係的那我想也跟委員報告說青年廚藝這個計畫我們其實非常非常重視事實上像我自己我本來我的大兒子我知道想要去做這個事情那我們現在就想要做因為我們也看到他的一些瓶頸啦他的瓶頸比如說舉個例子他的工作是有受限的"},{"start":475.089,"end":491.221,"text":"他是必須要勞動部然後說合可的這些工作在這個舖裡面所以我們現在再炒你一個新的版本在115學年度就會上路在這個版本裡面就是青年他可以自己找他的工作那找他工作再跟我們說所以他工作不會受限"},{"start":491.801,"end":513.529,"text":"那二方面是說過去的這個計畫比較是以儲蓄儲蓄幫弱勢的青年存錢這種概念但是我們現在比較想要把他引導到說幫青年找到真正的人生的方向跟熱情所以我們會比較像說你18歲以後所以這個我們會拉更多大學進來讓更多大學我們給他外加的特殊選材的名額所以你有機會從這裡面"},{"start":515.43,"end":530.662,"text":"剛好銜接到我這個問題那我再用一分鐘的時間把這個問題問完就是說到底剛剛有提到會不會跟大學銜接嘛可能他之前工作完之後他想要去念大學那現在確定我們大概有多少學校會加入這一個就是接下來他可以入學的這個方案"},{"start":532.884,"end":550.202,"text":"因為這個計畫正在新版剛差不多所以我們接下來會跟所有的大學只要你願意提供名額給這些學生聽起來就是還不確定嘛可是115年的方案就在今年八九月就要上路了嘛對不對不不115是明年明年就要上路了嘛那大概今年什麼時候會有比較明確的計畫內容呢"},{"start":556.364,"end":574.933,"text":"我們草案已經差不多了我想這個我們可能會在一年前就是前一年之前跟大家宣布這件事情所以我想大概就是差不多是五六月的時候差不多五月就要開始申請讓他們升高三的學生知道有這件事情明年他可以申請那他可以作為他接下來高三這一年之後"},{"start":575.493,"end":594.72,"text":"好沒關係因為時間有限我想最後一件事情要拜託次長就是說根據我們現在我們的一些缺點跟我們的一些檢討報告是不是可以提供到我辦公室第二個部分就是這個相關草案要上路的時程是不是也可以提供到我辦公室是那大家多久可以提供給我好沒問題多久謝謝委員兩個禮拜兩個禮拜好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":455,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時2分）謝謝主席，有請葉次。"],["主席：有請葉次長。"],["張委員雅琳：葉次好。請問葉次有聽過「Imagine yourself in our world」這句話嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：第一次聽到。"],["張委員雅琳：第一次聽到，沒關係！這是在2012年溫哥華水族館講的一句話，後來被鄭部長引用作為在中山大學校長任內勉勵所有學生的一句話。這句話其實有一個非常重要的概念，即我們必須要去試想，當我們在這樣的環境之下，未來可能需要什麼樣的科技輔助或教育。因此，我認為整個重點是如果我們要回應青年的需求，就應該要非常了解青年的需要以及傾聽青年的聲音。今天我們就針對青年基本法進行一些更細緻的討論，主要是我在這個草案中發現三個問題，所以今天我會從這三個面向與次長討論。第一個是青年的定義問題、第二個是專責機關、第三個是經費的部分。","首先是青年的定義問題，其實現在世界各國對於青年的定義大概就是19歲到34歲，但是今年我們的青年政策白皮書邀請的對象是15歲到40歲，因此我想要了解，如果我們從35歲以下來看，在臺灣大概有21%的人口規模，然而我們在蒐集意見時卻是匡列到40歲，所以我想了解到底未來我們的青年基本法上限是要匡到40歲或是35歲，請教次長的意見？"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，目前我們的草案是18歲到35歲。"],["張委員雅琳：18歲到35歲，好，了解。","再來是第二個部分，也就是專責機關的部分，雖然我們現在是有青諮會，但是它其實並沒有一個相關的法源。目前青年署是在教育部的職掌之下，以三級機關而言，它的職責、業務以及青年問題涉及非常非常的廣，包括求學、就業及居住等等的問題，其實都是屬於這個層面，顯然這個青發署很難解決這些經濟安全、心理健康及社會正義的問題，所以我想了解是否有機會爭取提升至二級機關，次長的想法是如何？"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，目前規劃整個專責單位就是教育部。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是誠如剛剛所言，大家最在乎的問題就是經濟安全、心理健康及社會正義，這些都不屬於教育部，更何況是身為三級機關的青發署要如何協調各個部會，我認為這是一個非常癥結的問題。"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，很多委員的條文都建議行政院應該定期召開青年事務協調會報，因此，與跨部會有關的協調事項就會在跨部會的會報中處理、追蹤。"],["張委員雅琳：也就是仍然維持在青發署，但是由行政院主責的會報來協調各部會嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：應該還是教育部。"],["張委員雅琳：教育部？"],["葉次長丙成：對，至於與其他部會有關的事情，我們就會透過會報來……"],["張委員雅琳：透過會報進行嗎？次長，你們現在是否有規劃大概多久會舉辦類似的會報？現在有什麼相關的規劃嗎？"],["葉次長丙成：目前的規劃大概是二、三個月辦一次。"],["張委員雅琳：一季會辦一次？"],["葉次長丙成：對。"],["張委員雅琳：了解。再來是牽涉到經費編列的問題，教育部的預算大概占總預算的10%至11%，在114年的預算中有0.53%是來自於青發署，其中還是因為有圓夢基金，所以我們現在投注在青年發展的預算其實是不到1%。我當然知道其他部會也有相關的資源，像是勞動部在青年就業就投入了30億元。請問，未來我們是不是也要在基本法訂定各相關業務來幫忙青發署爭取預算，或是要求其他二級機關增加青年發展的預算？"],["葉次長丙成：當基本法訂定之後，裡面有哪些事情應該要由各個單位、各個部會負責，以及要如何照顧青年，一旦訂入法律之後，因為具有法律的位階就一定要做，我想基本法的目的就是要確保這些預算是一定要花的。至於剛剛提到有很多預算其實是隱藏在很多地方，舉個例子，我們拉近公私立大學的學雜費差距花了200億元，這些其實都是花在青年的身上，因此，未來如何更具體的讓我們花在青年身上的經費能夠有一個更完整的數字呈現，這樣比較能清楚的看到國家……"],["張委員雅琳：對，我希望未來在行政院的版本中可以看到相關的條文，清楚的列上各個部會、各個機關要如何支持，這些相關的經費及預算都應該要更具體，我們才能知道到底有多少錢可以真正支持青年的發展，所以我希望次長未來要協助院版進行溝通與努力，謝謝。","再來，第二個問題是青年教育與就業的儲蓄帳戶方案，簡單來說，我們是從106年開始推動，每年有5,000個名額，在薪資之外會補助1萬元至專款帳戶，參加這個方案的高中畢業生三年最多可以多存36萬元，聽起來立意非常非常良好，但是我們也可以看到這個計畫歷次不停的進行修正，也因為在第一年（106年）的時候只有744人媒合，所以107年的預算就因此遭到部分的減列。","這張表最主要是想強調，原本是預估5,000人，但是後來就一直減少，變成了800人，不確定是不是我們對這個計畫的信心不足。我其實也調閱了相關的數字，這是一個滾動3年的計畫，從106年開始，因為它是一個最多可以到3年的計畫，所以我是用滾動3年的方式去累計。從108年到111年，我們可以看到申請人數與實際人數其實都是往上增加，但是退出人數的比例也是往上增加，所以我想請次長說明一下，你們有沒有做相關的研究及了解？我知道我們有青年職涯輔導團，為什麼退出的人數還是持續增加？"],["葉次長丙成：報告委員，111年退出的人數比較多，其實是因為疫情的關係。但是也要向委員報告，其實我們非常非常重視青年儲蓄計畫，像我的大兒子本來也要去做這件事情……"],["張委員雅琳：我知道。"],["葉次長丙成：其實我們也看到它的一些瓶頸，舉個例子，它的工作是受限的，必須要是勞動部核可的工作，在這個pool裡面。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["葉部長丙成：現在我們正在草擬一個新的版本，在115學年度就會上路。根據這個版本的規劃，青年可以自己找到工作後再來向我們申請，而且這個工作並不會受限。另一方面，過去這個計畫比較是屬於儲蓄、幫弱勢青年存錢的概念，但是我們現在比較想要將它引導成幫助青年找到真正的人生方向及熱情，所以我們會傾向到18歲之後，而且也會拉更多的大學進來，給更多大學外加的特殊選才名額，所以你有機會從這裡面……"],["張委員雅琳：抱歉！因為次長講的剛好銜接到我的問題，所以我再利用1分鐘的時間把這個問題問完。剛剛有提到會與大學銜接，可能在他工作一段時間後會想去念大學，現在確定有多少學校會加入這個方案？"],["葉次長丙成：因為這個計畫的新版本正在規劃中，接下來我們會告訴所有的大學，只要願意提供名額給這些學生……"],["張委員雅琳：聽起來是還不確定，但是115年的方案在今年的8、9月就要上路了，對不對？"],["葉次長丙成：不，115是在明年。"],["張委員雅琳：明年就要上路了嘛！"],["葉次長丙成：對。"],["張委員雅琳：今年大概什麼時候會有比較明確的計畫內容呢？"],["葉次長丙成：我們的草案已經差不多了，可能會在前一年向大家宣布這件事情。"],["張委員雅琳：差不多是5、6月的時候，因為5月就差不多要開始申請了。"],["葉次長丙成：讓升高三的學生知道有這件事情，明年他們可以提出申請，這樣他們可以利用高三這一年的時間進行規劃。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係，因為時間有限，最後一件事情要拜託次長，針對現在的一些缺點以及一些檢討報告是不是可以提供到我的辦公室？"],["葉次長丙成：好，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：第二個部分，這些相關草案要上路的時程是不是也可以提供到我的辦公室？"],["葉次長丙成：是。"],["張委員雅琳：大概多久可以提供給我？"],["葉次長丙成：好，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：多久？"],["葉次長丙成：2個禮拜。"],["張委員雅琳：2個禮拜，好，謝謝。"],["葉次長丙成：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員，次長，請回。","接下來請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-2","speakers":["林宜瑾","黃捷","林楚茵","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","林德福","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","郭昱晴","葉元之","范雲","吳思瑤","邱志偉","陳培瑜","李坤城"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00009"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員黃捷等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；二、審查委員林楚茵等21人擬具「青年基\n本法草案」案；三、審查委員林宜瑾等22人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；四、審查委員吳思瑤等\n47人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；五、審查委員陳培瑜等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；六、\n審查委員范雲等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；七、審查委員陳秀寳等21人擬具「青年基本法\n草案」案；八、審查委員吳沛憶等24人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；九、審查委員王美惠等17人\n擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十、審查委員郭昱晴等18人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十一、審\n查委員林月琴等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十二、審查委員葛如鈞等19人擬具「青年基本\n法草案」案；十三、審查委員李坤城等19人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十四、審查委員魯明哲\n等17人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十五、審查委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；\n十六、審查委員葉元之等 20 人擬具「青年基本法草案」案；十七、審查委員林德福等 20 人擬具\n「青年發展基本法草案」案；十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等16人擬具「青年基本法草案」案 (僅進行\n詢答)","agenda_id":"1142601_00009"}}},{"id":"159110","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159110","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770faecb552030f9c501fc7dc3b86466824cff1cdb1affc83ff4c1dff94e1de332545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"11:00:20 - 11:11:07","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T11:00:20+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:11:07+08:00","duration":647,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.079718750000001,"end":14.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.661593750000002,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.88034375,"end":33.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.00034375,"end":37.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.32034375,"end":39.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.024718750000005,"end":52.883468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.462843750000005,"end":46.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.38971875,"end":61.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.299718750000004,"end":67.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.56909375000001,"end":76.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.84596875000001,"end":80.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.60909375,"end":80.65971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.65971875000001,"end":82.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.97159375000001,"end":86.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.73471875,"end":88.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.78534375000001,"end":87.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.21971875,"end":92.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.58596875,"end":96.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.34909375000001,"end":98.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.88471875,"end":110.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.12346875,"end":111.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.26659375000001,"end":127.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.77471875,"end":130.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.91346875000002,"end":134.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.30096875,"end":137.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.16971875000002,"end":141.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.64596875,"end":143.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.73409375,"end":158.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.30159375000002,"end":161.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.64284375,"end":162.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.35159375,"end":174.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.36284375000002,"end":172.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.23159375,"end":177.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.12534375,"end":186.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.43721875,"end":181.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.85846875000001,"end":187.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.13659375,"end":188.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.15346875,"end":188.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.18721875,"end":188.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.96346875,"end":192.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.40159375000002,"end":201.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.20221875000001,"end":203.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.15534375000001,"end":205.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.62346875,"end":206.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.61471875,"end":206.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.90159375000002,"end":209.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.53409375,"end":225.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.98721875,"end":227.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.75909375,"end":228.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.17659375000002,"end":235.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.79159375,"end":237.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.93471875,"end":238.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.89221875,"end":240.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.05221875,"end":244.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.51159375,"end":247.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.09346875000003,"end":248.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.83159375000002,"end":282.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.01221875000005,"end":286.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.95659375,"end":287.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.88034375,"end":288.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.89721875000004,"end":288.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.93096875000003,"end":300.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.25409375000004,"end":302.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.19034375,"end":308.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.01221875000005,"end":312.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.74596875000003,"end":326.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.06221875,"end":314.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.95471875000004,"end":332.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.12659375000004,"end":354.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.70159375000003,"end":359.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.75534375,"end":367.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.68284375,"end":370.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.79159375,"end":375.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.70221875000004,"end":388.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.79721875,"end":390.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.31159375000004,"end":393.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.21409375,"end":396.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.93096875000003,"end":399.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.13721875000005,"end":401.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.09471875,"end":409.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.54971875,"end":406.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.34284375000004,"end":410.58284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.84034375000005,"end":410.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.58284375000005,"end":410.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.80221875,"end":410.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.83596875,"end":410.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.86971875,"end":415.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.48909375000005,"end":417.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.64909375,"end":419.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.26909375,"end":420.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.00721875000005,"end":422.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.96909375,"end":423.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.70721875000004,"end":424.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.72409375,"end":437.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.81596875,"end":432.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.16096875000005,"end":441.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.94096875,"end":442.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.17284375,"end":447.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.89346875,"end":450.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.90596875000006,"end":458.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.84596875000005,"end":455.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.16159375,"end":477.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.43909375000004,"end":466.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.29909375000005,"end":471.68721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.81721875000005,"end":479.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.38659375000003,"end":480.51284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.95596875,"end":486.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.22909375,"end":488.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.27534375000005,"end":490.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.97534375000004,"end":498.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.11346875000004,"end":498.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.19784375,"end":498.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.14284375000005,"end":509.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.57159375000003,"end":510.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.78659375,"end":513.6553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.72284375,"end":521.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.46846875,"end":532.8759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.84346875,"end":525.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.36971875,"end":532.7578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.4665937500001,"end":537.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.05659375,"end":539.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.54159375,"end":539.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.86221875,"end":549.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.5147187499999,"end":552.0459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.1303437500001,"end":563.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.1115937500001,"end":576.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.44346875,"end":574.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.9240937500001,"end":579.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.8772187500001,"end":598.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.9753437500001,"end":599.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.5322187500001,"end":601.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.6672187500001,"end":599.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.2490937499999,"end":603.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.1940937500001,"end":604.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.54409375,"end":613.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.74596875,"end":609.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.31534375,"end":612.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.3403437500001,"end":612.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.3740937499999,"end":612.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.0322187500001,"end":614.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.36534375,"end":624.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.4622187500001,"end":615.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.22034375,"end":625.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.18221875,"end":625.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.23284375,"end":626.5659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.2665937500001,"end":627.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.3928437500001,"end":637.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.78096875,"end":628.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.33784375,"end":629.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.1684687500001,"end":632.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.77159375,"end":634.3959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.6697187500001,"end":637.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.85534375,"end":637.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.9228437500001,"end":639.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.9734687499999,"end":638.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.6440937500001,"end":639.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.72846875,"end":640.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.01534375,"end":645.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.0322187500001,"end":640.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.7234687499999,"end":646.19159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.994,"end":39.077,"text":"主席請次長麻煩次長委員好黃次長好幾件這個問題民眾想要了解一下先看你的見解第一個民意代表立法委員率眾包圍法院率眾包圍檢察署這個有沒有違法"},{"start":40.489,"end":61.322,"text":"因為這個是個案嘛,法律上當然會有相關的防礙公務我們要講個案,我是講...對,我就說在個案上他要事實認定啦從抽象來講,我們相關的法律規定當然有相關的防礙公務的一些規範啦防礙公務罪的一些規範啦,如果用強暴脅迫,支持我們公務的行使的話當然是有可能,但個案是不是符合當然要個案去認定"},{"start":62.478,"end":80.249,"text":"可是我們的法院周邊不是不能有這樣的活動那是不能夠集會遊行那是有沒有違反集會遊行法的問題我現在為你問的是有沒有構成犯罪對有沒有構成犯罪他要回到我們刑法有沒有可能構成我們妨礙公務的執行這裡有沒有妨礙公務對那前提是他要有妨礙公務的執行"},{"start":80.697,"end":96.235,"text":"就是說圍起來,沒有妨礙公務沒關係對,他有沒有犯罪跟有沒有違反極右法有時候不太一樣極右法可能是行政庁所以我要說,立法委員帶群眾去把地方法院包起來包起來喔,大花跟大小聲,這樣可以嗎"},{"start":99.125,"end":111.034,"text":"委員我剛才已經回答委員問題他要回到我們的妨礙公務上面的構成要件要強暴協會或相關的妨礙公務的執行的構成要件去看而不是說他能不能集會這件事情OK好第二個"},{"start":112.915,"end":140.464,"text":"請問這一個我們不管是受刑人或者是被羈押的人要這一個外出不管去醫院或者去家人病危或者是去奔喪你們有一張申請表就可以填那填了之後就核准不核准如果核准了核准以後的時間核准以後的時間按照規定"},{"start":141.724,"end":159.685,"text":"要不要通知家屬各位我們這個羈押法還有我們的監獄刑警法還有我們受刑人相關的反加探知辦法裡面就這個通知家屬這件事情倒是他有一定的規範啦核准前當然不可能這個通知啊那核准後會不會跟他講幾點幾分會到"},{"start":163.765,"end":176.991,"text":"這個其實有一些安全上的考慮啦那基本上原則上是不會通知啦幾點幾分到我們不會通知啦通知家屬這件事情原則上不會通知家屬那請問誰會知道"},{"start":179.335,"end":180.797,"text":"那警方知道警方可以公告周知嗎?"},{"start":194.723,"end":208.894,"text":"這個當然是警察執行職務他一個內控的問題那你覺得按站在你們介護的角度我們當然不希望他不希望警察局對外有透露任何的訊息"},{"start":209.554,"end":236.027,"text":"那如果透露的話就違反了我們這個規範的目的我們規範的目的不讓他這個相關的在外面的話希望安全上的考量嘛或者他本身受監督的考量我們當然不希望這個消息讓太多人知道他會影響我們相關的戒護第三啊最近有這一個這個中國人士啊在台灣拍影片主張這一個武統"},{"start":239.946,"end":248.611,"text":"武力統一台灣在台灣做這樣的主張在台灣做這樣的主張有沒有違法"},{"start":250.038,"end":278.352,"text":"各位報告這涉及到就是說他言論自由跟相關犯罪的界限的問題他言論自由我們要保障那如果說他的言論自由超過了憲法規定的界限的話那其實有可能過程犯罪所以我們國防部他就提了一個宣誓效忠的一個相關的草案他把這個如果說你對這個敵對團體宣誓效忠的話他也是一個言論他有可能會過程犯罪所以他基本上透過一個法律上的一個保留把他規定的犯罪如果沒有的話他只是單純言論的話"},{"start":279.713,"end":307.975,"text":"言論本身自由我們也應該要以保障你的意思是說一台灣有人可以一台灣大聲話武統台灣非和平手段統一台灣跟委員報告這個個案其實認定喔這個我不說我是說他基本上言論自由言論本身是自由但言論自由本身他還是有界限的嘛一定要有界限嘛不是你這個要給大家講清楚今天有一個人不管你是中國人還是台灣人不管你來一台灣喔"},{"start":309.697,"end":331.455,"text":"這臺灣注定喔 注定有你統一臺灣這個我要辦不來我們心法上它有可能有其他商貨犯罪有可能你商貨他人犯罪或商貨他人推翻一個他有可能會構成商貨罪所以我就說個案上他要去認定而不是說單純的言論本身是不是構成犯罪那我們反滲透法的主張採取非和平手段危害我國儲家主權這在講什麼"},{"start":333.831,"end":358.928,"text":"這個是我們境外敵對勢力的定義反滲透法就是敵對勢力什麼叫做敵對勢力它在我們第二條有規定你要主張戰爭或你要主張用非和平的方式來影響國家安全那現在全世界有誰主張要用非和平的手段來危害中華民國主權"},{"start":359.93,"end":374.649,"text":"各位這個就要個案去認定,這個不是個案我沒有辦法判斷,因為我們的反省鬥法沒有規範是哪一個國家全世界啊,全世界啊,全世界有對一個國家啦主張說要用非和平手段危害我國主權"},{"start":375.902,"end":395.89,"text":"我剛已經跟各位報告所以我們反制鬥法它沒有規範是哪一個國家喔它是用敵對勢力這個名詞去定義非合併的方法去影響國家安全它不講哪一個國家,是要個案去認定好,那最近陸委會啊這個針對一位中國人在台灣主張武統已經說這個人要掛回去"},{"start":400.765,"end":422.457,"text":"這個會跟法務部有關嗎?這沒有 這個是移民的問題 入境移民法 或者是兩岸關係條例所以這叫你們都沒有關係 陸委會叫移民署好 那如果這個人他主張武統 然後他接收到敵對勢力的資助 就叫你們有關係嗎?"},{"start":424.961,"end":441.798,"text":"這個我們反滲透法他如果受到這個這個這個傷害來源的的資助指示委託資助他當然有可能會構成相關反滲透法的相關規範阿就叫法務部相關的單位有關的喔如果他涉及犯罪如果啦對對對就是說這一"},{"start":443.92,"end":447.203,"text":"這中國人是台灣主流的事情委託指示 資助他如果去插頭說指示 委託 資助就進化敵對勢力了指示 委託 資助那就委婉反省都完嘛"},{"start":460.574,"end":480.125,"text":"法律法律規範是這樣 受到境外敵對勢力的委託 資助 接下來做一個行為那行為也許是選罷法 也許是自由法 也許是相關的法律規範後面的規範 它再結合起來構成犯罪不是單純的受到指揮資助 本身會構成犯罪後面有另外一個行為這事情是法務部相關的單位 機關"},{"start":487.301,"end":496.033,"text":"就是你們查的嗎?如果他構成犯罪的話,當然檢察官他要依法偵辦OK,好,這個是關於這個接下來啊,剛才吳思耀委員有講這個審委技術嘛"},{"start":499.478,"end":520.698,"text":"請問你現在對防堵認知作戰,你的報告裡面有寫防堵認知作戰跟偽假訊息,不管透過影音圖文,你們現在是被動處理,還是主動處理?各位報告,我們調查局就這個深圍本身,它有成立一個小組,就這個它有積極在處理,它不是被動,它有積極在處理"},{"start":521.579,"end":530.201,"text":"譬如說我們去找省委,我們去找省委,像我叫柯總召,我們就去找地檢署,像我們有去找嘛有些人可能去警察叫說,這要我用,這樣不行嘛這些案子查,現在查到這個案子,現在辦的這個情形是什麼,很難查"},{"start":544.875,"end":571.716,"text":"或是查出來後,真的有人因為做這些的東西現在去用處罰,或是去用抓去關押嗎?相關的審委,相關法令近期來幾個修法,其實我們都把審委加進去,譬如說審委的這個姓名啊,譬如說審委的詐欺啊甚至我們審委的選罷法,都有一些犯罪規定,現在都加加進來了所以說,實務上一定有人因為審委被入罪的啦,判罪的一定有"},{"start":572.276,"end":596.718,"text":"但是我手上沒有資料你把我唸幾行而已你以為我去跟省委說我沒民進黨那剛剛我們看有沒有構成妨礙民意就省委這部分來妨礙民意的話我們修法未來也會加重它獨立於另外一個比較重的刑責但如果現行法省委沒有特別規範的話它如果構成妨礙民意或毀謗我們現行法上刑法310條309都可以處理啊那也是妨礙民意而已嘛對"},{"start":599.7,"end":620.59,"text":"就叫寫一些文字不太一樣,沒有特別就對了,所以你叫人家念這個叫跟姓有關的,就是跟你念三四行嘛,其他就沒有了,其他就說政治的啦我們選罷法就有,選罷法在去年修法之後就把身為相關的處罰行為它都有規範"},{"start":624.051,"end":636.855,"text":"那規範是就是加重就獨立一個犯罪就獨立一個犯罪好我希望這個你來加強因為這越來越嚴重因為現在來如果選舉或是啟動什麼罷免如果有這些東西出來可能會影響整個台灣的政體好阿在法務部加油好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1014,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（11時）主席，請次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["王委員義川：黃次長好。民眾想要了解一下幾個問題，我們先看看你的見解。第一個，民意代表立法委員率眾包圍法院，率眾包圍檢察署，有沒有違法？"],["黃次長謀信：因為這是個案，法律上當然會有相關的妨礙公務……"],["王委員義川：本席不是說個案，本席是說……"],["黃次長謀信：對。我是說個案要就事實認定啦！從抽象來說，相關的法律規定當中，當然有妨礙公務罪的相關規範，如果用強暴、脅迫影響公務行使的話，當然是有可能。但個案是不是符合？當然要個案認定。"],["王委員義川：可是法院周邊不是不能有這樣的活動嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：對，不能夠集會遊行。但那是有沒有違反集會遊行法的問題，現在委員問的是有沒有構成犯罪。"],["王委員義川：對。"],["黃次長謀信：有沒有構成犯罪就要回到刑法，有沒有可能構成妨礙公務的執行。"],["王委員義川：就是有沒有妨礙公務。"],["黃次長謀信：對，前提是要有妨礙公務的執行。"],["王委員義川：圍起來時，如果沒有妨礙公務就沒有關係？"],["黃次長謀信：對。他有沒有犯罪和有沒有違反集會遊行法，有時候不太一樣。"],["王委員義川：本席知道。"],["黃次長謀信：因為集會遊行法比較屬於行政程序法。"],["王委員義川：立法委員帶民眾去包圍地方法院，還在那裡喊得大小聲，這樣可以嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：我剛才已經回答委員的問題，這要回到妨礙公務的構成要件，用強暴、脅迫或相關妨礙公務執行的構成要件去看，而不是針對他能不能集會這件事情。"],["王委員義川：好。第二個，請問受刑人或者被羈押的人要外出，不管是去醫院，或者是家人病危，或者是奔喪，你們有一張申請表可以填嘛！填了之後你們會審核，如果核准了，按照規定，核准的時間要不要通知家屬？"],["黃次長謀信：根據羈押法和監獄行刑法，還有受刑人相關的返家探視辦法，就通知家屬這件事情是有一定的規範啦！核准前當然不可能通知啊！"],["王委員義川：核准後會不會告訴他們幾點幾分到？"],["黃次長謀信：這其實有一些安全上的考慮，原則上不會通知啦！我們不會通知家屬幾點幾分到。"],["王委員義川：原則上不會通知家屬。請問誰會知道？"],["黃次長謀信：有些是要戒護嘛！因為監所可能要戒護，按照監獄行刑法的規定……"],["王委員義川：警方可能會知道，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：如果需要戒護的話。"],["王委員義川：警方知道之後可以公告周知嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：這是警察執行職務內控的問題，警察執行職務應該要有這方面的認知。"],["王委員義川：站在戒護的角度呢？"],["黃次長謀信：我們當然不希望。"],["王委員義川：不希望警察局對外透露任何訊息。"],["黃次長謀信：如果透露的話，就違反這個規範的目的。我們規範的目的是當他在外面時，因為會有安全上的考量嘛！或者是受刑人本身的考量，所以我們當然不希望這個消息被太多人知道，怕會影響相關的戒護。"],["王委員義川：OK，好，這是第二個問題。第三，最近有中國人士在臺灣拍影片，主張武力統一臺灣。在臺灣做這樣的主張有沒有違法？"],["黃次長謀信：這涉及到言論自由和相關犯罪的界線問題。當然，我們要保障言論自由，如果他的言論自由超過憲法規定的界線，其實有可能會構成犯罪，所以國防部就提了一個宣誓效忠的相關草案，把這個部分納入。如果你對敵對團體宣誓效忠的話，雖然它是一個言論，但也有可能會構成犯罪。所以基本上是透過法律上的保留，把它規定成犯罪，如果沒有觸犯規定，只是單純言論的話，言論本身的自由，我們也應該要保障。"],["王委員義川：你的意思是說，在臺灣，可以大聲喊武統臺灣，非和平手段統一臺灣？"],["黃次長謀信：這要就個案認定。我是說基本上言論本身是自由的，但言論自由還是有界線的嘛！一定要有界線嘛！"],["王委員義川：這個部分你要和大家說清楚。今天這個人，不管他是中國人還是臺灣人，不管他怎麼來臺灣的，在臺灣主張武力統一臺灣，這樣要不要偵辦？"],["黃次長謀信：委員，就刑法而言，他可能會有煽惑犯罪之嫌，你煽惑他人犯罪，或煽惑他人推翻一個政府，就有可能構成煽惑罪，所以我說要就個案認定，而不是單純以言論本身認定是不是構成犯罪。"],["王委員義川：反滲透法的主張是採取非和平手段危害我國國家主權，這是說明什麼？"],["黃次長謀信：這是我們對境外敵對勢力的定義啦！是反滲透法對敵對勢力的定義。什麼叫做敵對勢力？它在第二條有規定，如果你主張戰爭，或主張用非和平的方式影響國家安全，這就是所謂的敵對勢力。"],["王委員義川：現在全世界有誰主張用非和平的手段危害中華民國主權？"],["黃次長謀信：這個要就個案認定。因為這個不是個案，我沒有辦法判斷，而且反滲透法並沒有規範是哪一個國家。"],["王委員義川：本席是問你，現在全世界有哪一個國家，主張用非和平手段危害我國主權？"],["黃次長謀信：我剛才已經向委員報告，反滲透法沒有規範是哪一個國家喔！它是用敵對勢力這個名詞去定義，以非和平的方法影響國家安全，並沒有指明是哪一個國家，這部分要個案認定。"],["王委員義川：最近陸委會針對一位中國人祭出處分，因為她在臺灣主張武統，陸委會已經說要把這個人趕回去，這和法務部有關嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：沒有，這是關係到移民的問題，是依據入出境移民法或者是兩岸關係條例，因為她沒有……"],["王委員義川：所以這和你們沒有關係？是陸委會和移民署的業務。"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["王委員義川：如果這個人主張武統，然後他接收到敵對勢力的資助，這樣就和你們有關係了嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：依據反滲透法，他如果受到煽惑來源的資助……"],["王委員義川：指示、委託、資助。"],["黃次長謀信：指示、委託、資助，當然有可能會違反反滲透法的相關規範。"],["王委員義川：這樣就和法務部等相關單位有關了。"],["黃次長謀信：如果他涉及犯罪的話。"],["王委員義川：如果啦！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["王委員義川：就是這個中國人在臺灣主張這些事情……"],["黃次長謀信：對，委託、指示、資助。"],["王委員義川：如果被查到境外敵對勢力有指示、委託、資助，就會違反反滲透法嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：反滲透法的規範是這樣，收到境外敵對勢力的委託、資助，接下來做一個行為，那個行為也許關係到選罷法，也許關係到集會遊行法，也許是相關的法律規範，依據後面的規範，兩者結合起來就構成犯罪，不是單純受到指揮、資助就會構成犯罪。"],["王委員義川：對，沒錯，關係到他之後做的事情。"],["黃次長謀信：對，後面有另外一個行為。"],["王委員義川：如果有這些事情，法務部等相關單位、機關要負責查察嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：如果他構成犯罪，檢察官當然要依法偵辦。"],["王委員義川：OK，好。剛才吳思瑤委員有提到深偽技術嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["王委員義川：現在對於防堵認知作戰，在你們的報告裡面有寫到，防堵認知作戰和違假訊息，不管是透過影音、圖文，你們現在是被動處理還是主動處理？"],["黃次長謀信：調查局就深偽有成立一個小組，這個部分他們有積極在處理，他們不是被動的，有積極在處理。"],["王委員義川：不是的。例如我遇到深偽案件，所以和柯總召到地檢署提告，有的人可能是去警察局報案，因為這是不對的行為，但現在的狀況是這類案子很難追查，或是查出來之後，真的有人因為做這些東西被處分，還是被抓去關嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：針對相關的深偽法令，其實近期幾項修法我們都有把深偽加進去，比如深偽的性影音、深偽的詐欺，甚至是深偽的選罷法，這些都有一些犯罪規定，現在都有加進來了，所以實務上一定有人因為深偽被判罪，只是我手上沒有資料，因為這個……"],["王委員義川：你剛才只說了幾項而已，例如有人用深偽技術誣指本席罵民進黨，這種案件你們有在偵辦嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：要看有沒有構成妨礙名譽。深偽這部分的妨礙名譽，未來修法也會加重，另外獨立一個比較重的刑責。如果現行法對深偽沒有特別規範的話，例如構成妨礙名譽或毀謗，現行的刑法第三百一十條、第三百零九條都可以處理啊！"],["王委員義川：那只是妨礙名譽而已嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["王委員義川：就像寫一些文字罵本席，並沒有特別的處分。"],["黃次長謀信：對，就是妨礙名譽。"],["王委員義川：你剛才唸到和性有關的規範就包含了三、四項，其他的就沒有了。"],["黃次長謀信：對，那是新的規範。"],["王委員義川：其他的就沒有了。例如政治，像現在……"],["黃次長謀信：選罷法就有相關規範。去年選罷法修法的時候，針對深偽的相關觸法行為都有規範。"],["王委員義川：所謂的規範就是加重處分，就是用……"],["黃次長謀信：就是獨立一項犯罪。"],["王委員義川：好。本席希望你們要加強這個部分，因為這個問題越來越嚴重，例如遇到選舉或是現在啟動的罷免案，如果出現這些東西可能會影響整個臺灣的政治，請法務部加油，謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","下一位請翁曉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","柯建銘","王義川","吳思瑤","黃國昌","王鴻薇","沈發惠","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00011"}}},{"id":"159109","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159109","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fe5d1f516255f4a782f58198bcf8270c1ff1cdb1affc83ff4106c04e58201a3ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:55:52 - 11:01:23","影片長度":"00:05:31","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T10:55:52+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:01:23+08:00","duration":331,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.105968750000001,"end":8.552843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.57784375,"end":11.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.649093750000002,"end":14.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.84284375,"end":16.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.39971875,"end":23.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.41534375,"end":28.313468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.60034375,"end":35.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.667843750000003,"end":28.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.53596875,"end":39.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.42971875,"end":48.765968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.91784375,"end":60.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.06784375,"end":63.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.39659375,"end":66.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.68721875,"end":76.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.73659375000001,"end":75.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.81221875,"end":91.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.29596875,"end":86.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.39221875000001,"end":98.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.32784375,"end":111.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.01346875,"end":118.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.18534375,"end":125.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.98596875000001,"end":127.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.60159375,"end":194.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.24096875,"end":196.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.27471875,"end":196.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.20284375,"end":261.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.29971875,"end":197.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.86284375000002,"end":211.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.93159375,"end":258.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.09159375,"end":263.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.17971875,"end":265.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.60971875,"end":295.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.81971875,"end":272.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.80221875,"end":275.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.85284375000003,"end":278.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.13909375000003,"end":280.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.84784375000004,"end":280.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.45909375,"end":284.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.47596875,"end":284.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.62784375,"end":284.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.64471875000004,"end":284.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.74846875000003,"end":308.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.47659375,"end":323.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.73346875000004,"end":311.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.79659375,"end":312.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.22159375,"end":319.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.62221875,"end":321.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.72721875,"end":324.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.36846875000003,"end":327.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.47784375000003,"end":328.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.46909375,"end":329.54909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.009,"end":35.099,"text":"好請一下董政次董政次謝謝市長辛苦了好今天主要是還是要談就是我接受到很多的陳情就是一般的在這個社區或者是他們的住家飼養寵物的上面的一個問題那我想目前這個公寓大廈管理條例允許社區可以透過所有權人的一個會議去禁止"},{"start":35.68,"end":61.419,"text":"別人養寵物這些事情我想這個您知道嗎那個一般來講就是說區權會他具有那個對大樓最終的管理權所以是由區權會來做決定好但是因為也這樣子的一個現象其實也會導致很多的鄰里上面的鄰居上面的一些衝突那進而呢也導致一些所謂的租屋主他可能要搬進這個社區就因為這個大樓他有這樣的規定"},{"start":63.442,"end":71.314,"text":"可是他的毛小孩或者他的寵物就被迫要不就送人要不就棄養可能進而會變成一種比較惡性的循環"},{"start":72.059,"end":97.095,"text":"可能還會有流浪動物的這樣子棄養的一個問題所以我在想這個部分是不是我們能夠透過一些比較我想修法的一個版本來改善這樣子的一個問題那我有提到就是我自己本身的這個版本在第16條的部分我是特別在底下有特別加了除其他法令另有規定之外不得禁止"},{"start":97.655,"end":118.645,"text":"禁止飼養寵物我想這個是比較符合我們對於所謂的動物友善的這樣子的一個態度跟寬容的一個條件然後那也確保這個社區不能透過所謂的所謂的這個規約去禁止別人飼養寵物那也是必須要尊重一下這個飼主跟"},{"start":119.305,"end":145.691,"text":"住屋者的所有權人的一個權利我想這樣子的一個做法也有可能可以就是因為政策的改變我們減少一些動物被棄養這樣子的一個問題讓人跟動物可以比較和諧的一個共存那另外在第23條這個原版本其實我們可以看到第23條原版本的第三項它有特別提到禁止住戶飼養動物的特別約定"},{"start":147.831,"end":175.241,"text":"我把它改成就是禁止住戶飼養動物的我把它改成住戶飼養動物的管理規定我想用稍微比較溫柔的一個方式比方說我們可能可以透過所謂的所有全人他們在社區當中他們可以有一些相關的飼養寵物上的一些規範不管是對於環境也好或者是寵物的噪音也好"},{"start":175.661,"end":192.85,"text":"或者是在寵物的這個衛生環境的部分而不是明定直接就禁止別人飼養那我想這個部分是我在修法當中所提的部分那我不曉得這個因為其實很多人在問我們說這個部分的這個修法的這個進度到底在哪裡這個可以請"},{"start":195.771,"end":201.618,"text":"這邊說明一下好 感謝委員其實這一個條文在106年的時候當時的這個會期裡面大家其實也有這一類的共識因為寵物的部分這幾年這個領養的數量已經遠超過我們新生兒的這個數量"},{"start":212.312,"end":233.658,"text":"那每年都大概有20幾萬那甚至可能會超到30萬的這樣一個數量的成長那所以在公寓大廈裡面飼養這個寵物大概是不可避免的趨勢啦所以當時原來立法只有是針對說不希望它影響住戶的安寧或造成這個安全上的疑慮但是並沒有說一定是禁止"},{"start":234.398,"end":248.511,"text":"一定並沒有說一定但是只是變成說很多管委會他就誤解這樣的條文去誤解這樣原來的用意去訂定那所以當時大家委員的看法是說除非法有令定禁止以外不得禁揚"},{"start":249.532,"end":271.687,"text":"不得禁養所以本來的概念也是這樣所以當時的條文的概念就如同委員所提的這版本這樣的一個想法但是後來藉期都沒有再審查藉期不連續所以很可惜這個部分就沒有再繼續討論因為我們知道這個內政部營建署它雖然有一個規定是公於大家飼養寵物的管理辦法參考的一個範本"},{"start":272.768,"end":288.707,"text":"但是到後來其實到了各個不同的社區他們就可以透過所謂的所有全人的一個會議去禁止別人來飼養我想說房子也不是他的為什麼你們多數的人說的就算其實這個對很多的飼主來講其實我們也接受到很多很多的陳情"},{"start":289.332,"end":318.699,"text":"那這個部分在我們的修法的部分有沒有可能在這個會期當中我們再努力一下好這個部分我想我們在因為這必須我們要重再重不再重新再抱怨那這個部分我們會再跟院裡面這邊再來討論是不是要再來提出來我想我們是可以加強寵物飼養的管理的方法啦但並不是說就容許讓很多的社區他們自己因為這個所有全人的一些會議就可以去決定別人"},{"start":319.28,"end":327.056,"text":"要不要養寵物這件事情我覺得這個是有點比較阿拔的部分了那我們往這方面再努力好嗎好 這個我們來努力好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":666,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時56分）好，請一下董政次。"],["主席：董政次，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：次長辛苦了。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：今天主要要談的還是我接受到很多的陳情，一般在社區或者是他們住家飼養寵物的問題。目前公寓大廈管理條例允許社區可以透過所有權人會議去禁止別人養寵物，這件事情您知道嗎？"],["董次長建宏：一般來講，區權會具有對於大樓最終的管理權，所以是由區權會來做決定。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，但也是因為這樣，其實導致很多鄰居間的衝突，進而也可能導致一些租屋族要搬進這個社區，就因為這個大樓有這樣的規定，他的毛小孩或者是他的寵物就被迫送人，要不就棄養，可能會變成一種惡性循環，也可能還會有流浪動物棄養的問題。所以我在想，這部分是不是能夠透過修法來改善這樣子的問題？我有提到，也就是我自己提的版本在第十六條，我在底下有特別加了，「除其他法令另有規定之外，不得禁止飼養寵物」，我想這個比較符合我們對於動物友善的態度跟寬容的條件，也確保社區不能透過所謂的規約去禁止別人飼養寵物，也必須尊重飼主跟住屋者、所有權人的權利，我想這樣子的做法可以因為政策的改變，減少一些動物被棄養的問題，讓人跟動物可以比較和諧的共存。","另外，在第二十三條的原版本，其實我們可以看到原版本第二十三條的第三項有特別提到禁止住戶飼養動物的特別約定，我把它改成「住戶飼養動物的管理規定」，我想用比較溫柔的方式，比方說我們可能可以透過所謂的所有權人，他們在社區當中可以有一些飼養寵物的相關規範，不管是對於環境也好，或者是寵物的噪音也好，還是寵物的衛生環境部分，而不是直接明定禁止別人飼養，這是我在修法當中所提的部分，我不曉得這個……因為其實很多人在問我這個修法的進度到底到哪裡，這可不可以請您說明一下？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員。這個條文在106年的時候，當時的會期裡面，大家其實也有這類的共識，因為寵物這幾年領養的數量已經遠超過我們新生兒的數量……"],["郭委員昱晴：是。"],["吳署長欣修：每年都大概有二十幾萬，甚至可能會超到三十萬這樣的數量成長，所以在公寓大廈裡面飼養寵物大概是不可避免的趨勢。當時立法只是不希望影響住戶的安寧，或造成安全上的疑慮，並沒有一定禁止，只是變成很多管委會就誤解這樣的條文，誤解原來的用意去訂定，所以當時委員的看法是除非法有另定禁止以外，不得禁養，本來的概念也是這樣，所以當時條文的概念就如同委員所提版本這樣的想法。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為……"],["吳署長欣修：後來屆期都沒有再審查。"],["郭委員昱晴：是，屆期不連續，所以也很可惜這個部分沒有過。"],["吳署長欣修：對，就沒有再繼續討論。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們知道內政部營建署雖然有一個規定，是公寓大廈飼養寵物管理辦法的參考範本……"],["吳署長欣修：是、是。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是後來到各個不同的社區，他們就可以透過所謂的……"],["吳署長欣修：有不同的解讀，大家解讀不同。"],["郭委員昱晴：對，所有權人的會議去禁止別人來飼養。"],["吳署長欣修：對、對。"],["郭委員昱晴：我想這房子也不是他的，為什麼多數人說的就算，這個對很多飼主來講……其實我們也接收到很多、很多的陳情，在修法的部分有沒有可能在這個會期當中，我們再努力一下？"],["吳署長欣修：好，這個部份我們必須從部再重新報院。"],["郭委員昱晴：對。"],["吳署長欣修：我們會再跟院裡面討論是不是要再提出來，想辦法確認……"],["郭委員昱晴：我想我們是可以加強寵物飼養管理的方法。"],["吳署長欣修：了解，是。"],["郭委員昱晴：但並不是就容許讓很多社區，他們自己因為所有權人的一些會議，就可以去決定別人要不要養寵物這件事情。"],["吳署長欣修：了解，是、是。"],["郭委員昱晴：我覺得這個是有點比較「壓霸」的部分。"],["吳署長欣修：對、對。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，那我們往這個方面再努力，好嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：好，這個我們來努力。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝。"],["主席（徐委員欣瑩代）：好，接下來請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159108","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159108","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fcf318b67bf79e8132f58198bcf8270c1ff1cdb1affc83ff4b803803d6f493de85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"10:44:58 - 10:55:46","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T10:44:58+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T10:55:46+08:00","duration":648,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.00471875,"end":11.590343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.01971875,"end":18.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.05346875,"end":18.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.42471875,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.48784375,"end":23.774093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.95971875,"end":28.043468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.43159375,"end":31.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.38471875,"end":31.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.17784375,"end":37.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.354093750000004,"end":43.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.91034375,"end":44.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.49659375,"end":46.774718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.23034375,"end":51.398468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.65159375,"end":58.148468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.945968750000006,"end":58.047218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.148468750000006,"end":58.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.367843750000006,"end":69.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.60784375,"end":64.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.53909375,"end":73.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.79159375,"end":75.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.41596875,"end":74.56784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.71971875,"end":74.98971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.17096875,"end":78.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.80346875000001,"end":88.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.29971875000001,"end":99.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.74534375,"end":116.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.23034375,"end":101.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.02159375000001,"end":117.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.10534375,"end":119.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.30784375,"end":118.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.87721875000001,"end":124.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.93596875,"end":122.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.31971875,"end":142.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.97346875000001,"end":128.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.56346875,"end":129.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.69409375,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.85721875000002,"end":140.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.46034375000002,"end":144.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.42596875,"end":148.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.85596875000002,"end":151.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.84721875,"end":162.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.52034375000002,"end":164.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.96721875,"end":187.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.20409375,"end":202.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.47596875000002,"end":205.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.83846875,"end":208.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.16284375,"end":212.67284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.56721875000002,"end":221.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.65034375000002,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.92534375000002,"end":286.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.63596875,"end":297.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.05596875000003,"end":305.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.07596875,"end":309.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.17659375,"end":312.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.60659375,"end":314.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.08284375,"end":316.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.66909375,"end":323.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.44034375,"end":326.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.29221875,"end":331.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.21534375000005,"end":345.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.17096875000004,"end":351.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.80721875,"end":352.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.80284375,"end":360.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.37534375,"end":367.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.61909375000005,"end":372.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.63096875,"end":375.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.90471875000003,"end":375.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.98909375000005,"end":376.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.96784375000004,"end":378.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.67221875,"end":381.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.10221875,"end":381.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.18659375000004,"end":382.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.49721875,"end":399.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.64784375000005,"end":401.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.12846875,"end":404.64284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.44034375,"end":406.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.58346875,"end":411.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.88659375000003,"end":432.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.14471875000004,"end":440.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.66784375000003,"end":433.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.75534375,"end":443.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.40471875000003,"end":443.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.21471875000003,"end":444.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.95721875000004,"end":450.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":451.80846875000003,"end":454.81221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":455.25096875,"end":469.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.79784375,"end":467.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.58221875000004,"end":470.42159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":470.47221875,"end":474.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.09596875000005,"end":475.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":475.38284375,"end":486.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.43346875000003,"end":475.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":486.68909375000004,"end":490.73909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":490.97534375000004,"end":505.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":505.74096875000004,"end":506.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":507.07409375000003,"end":510.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.25096875,"end":509.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":510.90471875000003,"end":510.92159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.92159375000006,"end":512.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":511.20846875,"end":524.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.34221875,"end":522.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.19784375,"end":525.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.5984687499999,"end":527.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.9822187500001,"end":540.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.80721875,"end":541.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.6340937500001,"end":549.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.8272187499999,"end":552.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.70034375,"end":550.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.95721875,"end":558.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.8972187500001,"end":561.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.96846875,"end":565.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.15346875,"end":589.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":574.74284375,"end":574.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.9622187500001,"end":575.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.65596875,"end":600.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.6584687500001,"end":603.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.14784375,"end":602.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.1897187500001,"end":609.3872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.01159375,"end":611.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.26846875,"end":615.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":613.6228437500001,"end":617.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.08659375,"end":617.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.31846875,"end":628.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.5359687499999,"end":638.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.27721875,"end":640.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.38659375,"end":644.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.91784375,"end":644.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":646.30971875,"end":648.1997187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.376,"end":11.539,"text":"謝謝會議主席 本席有請次長董事長委員好"},{"start":19.837,"end":43.501,"text":"次長好 次長今天在你們的報告中有特別講到108年的5月就修訂然後7月開始呢只要是就開始實施嘛等於是108年7月之後新建的大樓就規定要有這個充電樁的相關的保留這個空間跟設備對不對那為什麼當初會這樣"},{"start":47.302,"end":75.17,"text":"有這個法令通過實施是不是看到未來有這個整個電動車在台灣可能會開始民眾開始大量的來買是不是當時我們是配合國家的整體淨零碳排政策以及整個國際的趨勢所以我們就在相關的建築法規上面做一定的修正好啊那108年到現在過了多久了6年多了"},{"start":76.229,"end":99.207,"text":"六年多了為什麼我們今天談到公寓大廈裝設電動車相關的法令啊國家的標準啊建築設計管理維護甚至火災預防措施很多法令都還不完備吧我聽到您跟這個前面很多委員在答詢的時候哇還要三到六個月等於你們過去都沒在做"},{"start":99.933,"end":118.904,"text":"不是要跟委員報告就是說我們過去的法令涉及到的是電動樁的設置那電動樁的設置當然我們基本上就是以未來的趨勢所以才會在108年的時候制定法案是新的建築就設計那麼當然你這個法案這樣子定就表示說"},{"start":119.924,"end":144.513,"text":"要開始超前部署了嘛可是這6年都沒有其實我們都有相關的檢討但是還是很不足嘛到現在還是沒辦法要跟委員做一個報告就是說隨著科技技術的進步那麼第一個電動窗的設置是否為必要性設施其實隨著科技技術的進步他們有很多討論快速充電或者電池的改善就算不是電動窗但是有很多"},{"start":145.753,"end":161.791,"text":"相关的法令还是不完备我们后来面对到比较大的困难要不要做当然这个在我们委员会还有在立法院还没有一个定案但是现在就是管委会他们可以多数决由他们来表决"},{"start":162.552,"end":187.032,"text":"但是现在民众很多的疑虑那全部丢给民众啊政府也都没有解决嘛所以本席在这边大概归纳一下相关法令很多还不完备嘛这没有错嘛再来民众的安全疑虑民众的安全疑虑也等于是等一下我剩一点时间我也要跟你们来救教那民众的安全疑虑你都没有办法"},{"start":188.477,"end":212.364,"text":"讓他沒有安全疑慮所以才會造成整個館館會他們一定大部分是否決不希望除了新的社區大樓那再來還有一點可能我不知道你們知不知道現在所有水電工會的理事長他們都在反映一件事其實台灣的供電不足"},{"start":213.646,"end":242.805,"text":"好,这当然不是你内政部的事啦,但是这个整个跟这整个都有关,然后最后本席要讲的是,针对这种我们国家近邻碳排,还有我们新能源,甚至电动车,可能会是未来的趋势,那所以很多的相关法令,包含你看我们内政部,可能相关的消防署,国土署相关的法令,还有经济部,能源署,台电等等都有关,"},{"start":243.966,"end":268.851,"text":"我們好像缺少一個統合的其實現在不管什麼事情國家大政或民眾的需求我們中央就是缺少一個統合的單位統合的單位他才能夠去不然每一個問題來我就說這個是台電我負責把你的電配到你家門口進去以後那是別人的事所以這個我本心要表達這個才是最大的問題"},{"start":270.99,"end":295.931,"text":"那因為內政部你至少消防署跟國土署還有相關的法令在你們這所以本席在這裡是要提的是是不是可以有一個統合的看哪一個統合的單位他可以去統合包含對這裡有跨部會的協調這個都有必要那接著本席要來說其實針對社區大樓他是否裝置這個"},{"start":299.11,"end":322.905,"text":"充電樁是否裝置充電樁其實民眾最大的疑慮是好今天就算舊社區大樓就是108年以前的舊社區大樓他通過了他可以裝了您知道民眾碰到的問題是什麼嗎知道嗎他裝了之後應該就是除了消防安全之外就是電容的不足啦最主要是電容不足"},{"start":324.036,"end":351.926,"text":"電容的不足他很重要就是他一開始他一定是會先委託嘛委託一個充電樁公司或是一個合法的電器承裝業者他來做評估嘛評估完以後他要跟台電申請嘛那他跟台電申請之後跟台電申請之後台電配電了然後這個相關的委託單位他也來做安裝了那"},{"start":352.878,"end":382.281,"text":"可是他們會覺得說那施工完成以後請問這個施工完成需不需要有人來確認這個施工是否按照他的圖或是施工是不是OK這個部分有沒有哪一個單位可以來幫他們做確認施工後的把關這個我是不是請台電來做說明在裡面的施工也是台電嗎這表後是台電那可以"},{"start":391.613,"end":404.68,"text":"委員報告這個用戶他這個委託電器陳莊業做好以後他會跟台電報竣工那台電會配合他去做檢查那檢查以後如果合格我們就會送電你們台電會做什麼檢查"},{"start":406.861,"end":432.381,"text":"你會看他有沒有照施工圖施工有沒有偷工減料沒有吧我們會按照他所畫的圖面去跟他核對例如說這個導線陷阱有沒有符合他的圖面那另外就是他的開關有沒有按照他的原來提出來的去設那最後就是他的東西是不是經過我們認證的就是我們標準級認證合格的設備如果都通過了我們才會正式的送電這樣子是"},{"start":434.027,"end":453.943,"text":"那剛剛次長您有回答就是說對民眾也很大的碰到的問題就是他要舊社區要裝這個充電樁他整個電路的空間不足對不對還有配電盤可能整個的不夠那這個該怎麼辦這個他就是要合法再申請"},{"start":455.296,"end":469.823,"text":"我說明一下這就是在做這個在做這個充電的這個設備的時候他也必須要跟台電來申請相關的契約容量增加那要設置新的他空間不足怎麼辦那這不是空間不足他線路的空間啊"},{"start":470.984,"end":486.005,"text":"他是這樣所以就是我們剛剛所講的你如果拉的是明線如果拉的是明線沒有涉及破壞牆面那基本上只要台電這邊審查通過有增加契約容量這樣按照台電的規範來設置那其實是沒有問題"},{"start":486.866,"end":504.382,"text":"那另外一種就是如果你涉及必須要破壞牆面必須要穿牆那這個有可能會影響他的防火區劃那如果影響防火區劃他就必須要重新在建造上面重新送繩所以該委員所接到民眾的反應大概是這一類的問題就是他如果有需要破壞牆面的話"},{"start":506.38,"end":522.477,"text":"就其實像新竹前空會它就是因為有破壞牆面對對對才會造成這類然後它又沒有做好相關的這個防火的填塞或那一類的問題所以充電樁如果要自己另外搭線也有可能是遇到這個問題好"},{"start":526.673,"end":539.966,"text":"那所以次長我們這個統合的單位像比如說像今天你有的請台電有的可能消防署有的國土署那我們有沒有可能內政部可以有一個統合的單位"},{"start":541.675,"end":551.221,"text":"跟委員報告基本上屬於因為我們這次討論的議題是公益大廈管理條例內的公益大廈內部的充電不是要針對今天討論而已而是說我們針對現在的這個現況針對這個現況就是說電動車的充電的設置設備其實我們內政部基本上就是說針對相關的空間包括室內空間戶外空間以及它的防火設備等等我們都會一併做討論而且會跟相關的交通部經濟部我們做橫向的聯繫"},{"start":569.654,"end":588.376,"text":"因為這個涉及到他們在設置的時候他們其實也是要依我們的規範比方說你在戶外設充電樁我們也希望說你的充電樁的設置必須要靠近水源那你必須要有防火區隔等等這些相關的規範我們都會跟台電我們會跟經濟部跟交通部一併來討論"},{"start":590.697,"end":609.115,"text":"好那所以有些是內政部主管的有些法令規範還不足那你應該知道有些是可能跟經濟部有關的或是環境部跟經濟部比如像那個對電纜線的密度兼具負載一定的技術規範這個是消防嗎這個是消防署對"},{"start":613.285,"end":615.867,"text":"這是經濟部如果線路之間的話是經濟部對所以這一塊你看我們真的需要有一個統合的單位然後盡快的來把這些相關法令盡快完備因為你看你"},{"start":629.628,"end":642.001,"text":"七年前你就已經頒布這個社區大樓要預留這個空間但我們現在真正要設置的時候哇 民眾自愛難行啊好不好 我們快馬加鞭啊我們儘速來召開相關的會議來討論謝謝委員的指教謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":603,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時45分）謝謝會議主席。本席有請董次長。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長好。次長，今天在你們的報告中有特別講到108年5月就修訂，7月就開始實施，等於是108年7月之後新建的大樓就規定要保留充電樁相關的空間跟設備，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：是，要留用空間。"],["徐委員欣瑩：為什麼當初會有這個法令通過、實施？是不是看到未來整個電動車在臺灣可能會有民眾開始大量地來買？是不是？"],["董次長建宏：當時我們是配合國家的整體淨零碳排政策，以及……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛，減碳、淨零碳排。"],["董次長建宏：對，以及整個國際的趨勢，所以我們就在相關的建築法規上面做一定的修正。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，108年到現在過了多久了？六年多了。"],["董次長建宏：嗯。"],["徐委員欣瑩：過了六年多了，但為什麼我們今天談到公寓大廈裝設電動車充電相關的法令、國家的標準、建築設計、管理維護、甚至火災預防措施，很多法令都還不完備？我聽到您跟前面很多委員在答詢的時候提到還要3到6個月，表示你們過去都沒在做？"],["董次長建宏：不是。跟委員報告，我們過去的法令涉及到的是充電樁的設置，充電樁的設置基本上就是以未來的趨勢為考量，所以才會在108年的時候制定法案，規定新的建築就要設置。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["董次長建宏：當然，隨著整個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，這個法案這樣子定，就表示要開始超前部署了嘛。"],["董次長建宏：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可是這6年都沒有……"],["董次長建宏：有，其實我們都做有相關的檢討，但是關鍵是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們都有做，但是還是很不足，到現在還是沒辦法。"],["董次長建宏：沒有，要跟委員做一個報告，就是隨著科技技術的進步，第一個，充電樁的設置是否為必要性設施？其實隨著科技技術的進步，他們有很多討論，包括快速充電槽或者是電池的改善……"],["徐委員欣瑩：就算不是充電樁，但是有很多相關的法令還是不完備嘛。"],["董次長建宏：對，我們後來面臨到比較大的困難其實是安全性的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：要不要做當然在我們委員會、還有立法院還沒有一個定案，現在管委會他們可以多數決，由他們來表決，但是現在民眾有很多的疑慮，全部丟給民眾，政府也都沒有解決。所以本席在這邊大概歸納一下，相關法令很多還不完備，這沒有錯。再來，有關民眾的安全疑慮，等一下剩一點時間，我也要跟你們就教。對於民眾的安全疑慮，你們都沒有辦法讓民眾沒有安全疑慮，所以才會造成整個管委會一定大部分是否決、不希望設置，除了新的社區大樓。再來，還有一點，我不知道你們知不知道，現在所有水電公會的理事長都在反映一件事，其實臺灣的供電不足，這當然不是你們內政部的事，但是跟這整個都有關。","最後本席要講的是，針對這種我們國家淨零碳排、新能源、甚至電動車可能會是未來的趨勢，所以很多的相關法令跟內政部消防署、國土署，還有經濟部能源署、台電等等都有關，但我們好像缺少一個統合的單位。其實現在不管什麼事情，包含國家大政或民眾的需求，中央就是缺少一個統合的單位。有了統合的單位才能夠去統合，不然每個問題來了，台電就負責把電配到你家門口，進去以後又是別人的事。本席要表達的是，這個才是最大的問題。因為內政部至少消防署跟國土署還有相關的法令在你們這裡，所以本席要提的是，是不是可以有一個統合的單位可以去統合？這裡有跨部會的協調，這個都有必要。","接著本席要說，針對社區大樓是否裝置充電樁，其實民眾最大的疑慮是，今天就算舊社區大樓，也就是108年以前的舊社區大樓通過了，他們可以裝了，您知道民眾碰到的問題是什麼？知道嗎？"],["董次長建宏：他們裝的時候應該除了消防安全之外，最主要的就是電容不足。"],["徐委員欣瑩：電容的不足。很重要的是，他們一開始一定會先委託充電樁公司，或是一個合法的電器承裝業者來評估；評估完以後要跟台電申請；他們跟台電申請之後，台電配電了，相關的委託單位也來做安裝，可是他們會覺得施工完成以後……請問施工完成以後需不需要有人來確認這個施工是否按照他的圖，或是施工是不是OK？這部分有沒有哪一個單位可以來幫他們做確認？關於施工後的把關。"],["董次長建宏：這我是不是請台電來說明？"],["徐委員欣瑩：在裡面的施工也是台電嗎？"],["董次長建宏：表後是台電……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那可以。"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：跟委員報告，用戶委託電器承裝業做好以後，他們會跟台電報竣工，台電會配合他們去檢查；檢查以後如果合格，我們就會送電。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們台電會做什麼檢查？你們會看他有沒有照施工圖施工，有沒有偷工減料？沒有吧……"],["郭專業總工程師芳楠：我們會按照他所畫的圖面去跟他核對，例如導線線徑合不合？有沒有符合他的圖面？他們的開關有沒有按照原來提出來的去設？最後就是他們的東西是不是經過我們認證的，也就是我們標檢局認證合格的設備？如果都通過了，我們才會正式送電。"],["徐委員欣瑩：剛剛次長有回答，民眾碰到很大的問題，也就是舊社區要裝充電樁，但他們整個電路的空間不足，對不對？還有配電盤可能不夠，那這個該怎麼辦？"],["吳署長欣修：這個就是要再合法申請。我說明一下，他們在做充電設備時也必須要跟台電申請相關的契約容量增加，要設置新的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那他們空間不足怎麼辦？"],["吳署長欣修：這不是空間不足……"],["徐委員欣瑩：線路的空間啊！"],["吳署長欣修：是這樣的，就如我們剛剛所講的，如果拉的是明線，沒有涉及破壞牆面，基本上只要台電審查通過，有增加契約容量，按照台電的規範來設置，那其實是沒有問題的。另外一種就是，如果涉及破壞牆面，必須要穿牆，這個有可能會影響它的防火區劃；如果影響防火區劃就必須在建造上面重新送審。所以剛才委員接到民眾反應的大概是這一類問題，也就是他如果有需要破壞牆面的話……其實像新竹晴空匯，它就是因為有破壞……"],["徐委員欣瑩：牆面。"],["吳署長欣修：對、對，才會造成這類……然後他們又沒有做好相關的防火填塞或那一類的問題，所以充電樁如果要自己另外拉線……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這種情況已經可以避免？"],["吳署長欣修：也有可能是遇到這個問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。次長，關於統合的單位，譬如說像今天有的請台電，有的可能是消防署、有的是國土署，那內政部有沒有可能可以有一個統合的單位？針對……"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，因為我們這次討論的議題是公寓大廈管理條例內的……公寓大廈內部的充電……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是要針對今天討論的議題，而是針對現在的現況。"],["董次長建宏：針對現況電動車的充電設置設備，其實內政部基本上就是針對相關的空間，包括室內空間、戶外空間以及防火設備等等，我們都會一併討論，而且也會跟相關的交通部、經濟部橫向聯繫，因為這個涉及到他們在設置的時候，他們其實也是要依我們的規範……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["董次長建宏：比方說，你在戶外設充電樁，我們也希望你的充電樁設置必須要靠近水源，你必須要有防火區隔等等的相關規範，我們都會跟經濟部及交通部一併來討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，所以有些是內政部主管的，有些法令規範還不足，那你應該知道，有些可能是跟經濟部有關的，或是環境部……"],["董次長建宏：跟經濟部……"],["徐委員欣瑩：比如像電纜線的密度兼具負載，一定的技術規範，這個是消防嗎……對，這個是經濟部。"],["吳署長欣修：這是經濟部，如果是線路之間的話，是經濟部。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是經濟部嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你看這一塊，我們真的需要有一個統合的單位，然後儘快把這些相關法令完備。因為你看你們7年前就已經頒布社區大樓要預留空間，但現在民眾真正要設置的時候才發現窒礙難行啊！我們快馬加鞭，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：我們儘速召開相關的會議來討論，謝謝委員的指教。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","下一位請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159107","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159107","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f5d05369be971883d2f58198bcf8270c1ff1cdb1affc83ff43c0b16c68b9325bf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:33:38 - 10:44:26","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T10:33:38+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T10:44:26+08:00","duration":648,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.84471875,"end":6.021593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.679718750000001,"end":7.3209687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.434718750000002,"end":10.071593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.375343750000003,"end":10.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.762843750000002,"end":14.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.77971875,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.72034375,"end":17.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.00721875,"end":17.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.96909375,"end":24.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.49971875,"end":25.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.47846875,"end":49.710968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.048468750000005,"end":62.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.687843750000006,"end":65.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.41721875,"end":73.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.85909375,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.44471875,"end":83.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.96721875,"end":84.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.55784375,"end":85.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.05971875,"end":96.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.30284375000001,"end":99.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.94784375,"end":100.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.85909375,"end":103.86284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.45346875000001,"end":106.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.20409375000001,"end":120.92346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.64909375,"end":125.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.01971875000001,"end":134.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.74409375000002,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.33346875,"end":146.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.82659375,"end":148.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.73346875000001,"end":159.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.83721875,"end":162.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.43596875,"end":163.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.42721875,"end":166.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.27909375000002,"end":178.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.46284375000002,"end":199.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.23596875,"end":214.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.10284375,"end":237.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.86721875,"end":239.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.89221875,"end":243.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.02659375000002,"end":244.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.93784375,"end":247.26659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.70534375000003,"end":255.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.02909375000002,"end":255.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.58596875,"end":255.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.61971875,"end":259.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.85534375000003,"end":281.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.70034375,"end":279.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.71721875000003,"end":280.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.77596875,"end":284.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.47596875,"end":292.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.49284375,"end":285.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.39034375,"end":328.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.43534375,"end":332.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.97471875,"end":334.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.47221875,"end":354.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.94596875,"end":358.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.99596875000003,"end":359.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.48096875000005,"end":361.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.76346875,"end":366.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.77534375000005,"end":374.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.67284375,"end":375.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.49971875,"end":376.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.71471875000003,"end":379.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.31346875,"end":380.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.88284375,"end":382.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.63784375,"end":384.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.35471875,"end":386.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.14346875,"end":387.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.29096875000005,"end":392.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.23534375,"end":402.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.61346875000004,"end":405.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.60471875,"end":418.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.27784375000005,"end":420.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":418.54784375,"end":419.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.89346875,"end":423.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.96471875000003,"end":427.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.14971875000003,"end":428.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.28034375000004,"end":436.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.58284375000005,"end":439.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.25346875,"end":443.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.40034375000005,"end":482.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.21284375000005,"end":502.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.82159375000003,"end":504.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.53846875000005,"end":508.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.42409375000005,"end":509.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":511.24221875,"end":550.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":550.7634687500001,"end":550.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":552.26534375,"end":552.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.68721875,"end":552.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":553.1765937499999,"end":553.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.19346875,"end":559.4878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.53846875,"end":573.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.9665937500001,"end":576.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.4640937500001,"end":594.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":593.9128437500001,"end":600.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.35096875,"end":598.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.17346875,"end":607.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":607.9697187500001,"end":609.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.5222187500001,"end":623.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.5390937500001,"end":610.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":622.4484687500001,"end":623.2078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.2078437499999,"end":623.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.96721875,"end":627.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.15221875,"end":632.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.40471875,"end":632.7422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.7422187500001,"end":633.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.5522187500001,"end":633.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.90659375,"end":633.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.9909687500001,"end":634.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.0247187500001,"end":642.7153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.38659375,"end":641.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.87096875,"end":648.3178437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.132,"end":31.532,"text":"謝謝,請次長、董事長董事長有請再請吳署長吳署長有請委員好謝謝首先感謝委員會我們這個禮拜一的時候有安排了一個考察那考察的內容其實跟這個公寓大廈也有關係但是方向是完全不一樣的"},{"start":32.052,"end":49.253,"text":"是老舊公寓大廈外牆脫落造成的安全問題還有甚至結構的問題感謝吳署長也到現場給左營的國貿社區做了很多這些相關的建議"},{"start":50.194,"end":78.759,"text":"那這些相關的建議接下來跟高雄市政府也會合作那把廣告社區所面臨的這一些外牆脫落以及可能結構必須要評估的這些安全問題一併的提出相關的方案可以解決那最重要的是國土署這邊跟市政府這邊可能也必須要評估在公寓大廈自治條例規範中所有的管委會的設置的形態的不同"},{"start":79.502,"end":98.659,"text":"那可能有造成他們所收收的管委會的這些費用以及或者是清潔費等等有沒有辦法支應相關那可能必須要自籌的這些款項的問題我想都必須要解決這是一個極老社區的安全問題當然"},{"start":100.922,"end":117.041,"text":"在左營跟南梓我的選區加起來超過1500棟的大樓加起來超過1500棟的大樓裡面在2019年新的建築法規通過之後拿到使用建築執照它會有新的充電電動車充電設施的這些預留孔"},{"start":121.864,"end":149.197,"text":"裡面可能是不到一層也就是還是有接近1500棟的大樓其實是我們今天要討論的主題可能是我們今天要討論的主題也就是電動車的這個充電設備要進入這一些2019年以前就拿到這些使用執照的大樓目前的狀況那大家也了解是這樣子可能如果有這些2019年"},{"start":150.834,"end":178.313,"text":"以前的大樓的住戶想要買電動車想要換電動車為了環保為了不要讓別人吸到他的廢氣那他買電動車之前會回去詢問管委會那管委會給的答案如果是OK某某樓的住戶他已經裝過了好那這棟大樓可能就沒有相關的問題這棟大樓我們要注意的就是後面的消防法消防的這些問題"},{"start":179.534,"end":199.325,"text":"那好如果這一棟大樓還需經過管委會討論的話那管委會每個人的意見其實大部分可能以第一個費用第二個安全的問題那大家必須聚焦來做一個討論最後經過區全人的所有區全人的這個同意那如果在區全人大會裡面有一些"},{"start":200.885,"end":225.881,"text":"分爭的話或者是最後用投票來決定目前很多公益大廈管理條例裡面的這些公益大廈還是有一些像剛剛黃婕委員就有說到有一些大樓因為其他的因素沒有同意可是投票之後那可能大部分的區權人覺得說我們這裡不需要那這些就是今天我們要解決的另外一個問題"},{"start":227.503,"end":243.255,"text":"所以我希望國土署跟地方政府跟六都以及可能新竹縣市甚至現在嘉義可以有一個比較具體的一個討論有沒有辦法去問到各六都目前我剛剛所講的"},{"start":245.371,"end":262.632,"text":"區權人或者是公益大廈裡面拒絕反對這些住戶來升莊充電莊的署長有沒有相關的這些數字的確現在沒有那我想這個部分我們來了解那可能除了縣市政府以外"},{"start":263.192,"end":288.028,"text":"我們也會跟這個全國公益大廈的管理協會這邊來了解看看是不是也有相關的他們在處理因為他們畢竟是全國性的協會他們可能會對這方面也大概會有一些認知所以我們都來蒐集看看這樣的一個狀態還有他們最重要他們不成的就是協調不成的理由對 這個是我們今天其實開會很重要的一個參考的數字"},{"start":289.5,"end":304.997,"text":"那如果說今天就要提出我們要解決完全一次來解決2019所有的這些沒有辦法裝設或者是消防署面對的這些安全的問題我覺得今天是有一點困難所以希望國土署這邊"},{"start":305.758,"end":329.313,"text":"也可以來協助一下來處理這個問題高雄包含全國過去包含高雄2021年的城中城大火後來處理這些消防的相關的法規的問題還有我在禮拜一的時候邀請署長一起到左營國貿社區去看的這些外牆脫落這些瓷磚的安全這些問題我想我們其實都需要專案來解決這些問題"},{"start":335.523,"end":357.83,"text":"那目前的這些專案現在目前的這些全國一致性的規範規範的是30年以上的這些老宅那包含不管是瓷磚脫落或者是這個結構安全的問題分別必須有自負額一半或者是分別需要如果結構安全的問題可能可以補助到85%等等那"},{"start":360.523,"end":386.616,"text":"我們還是希望遇到的這些問題可以國土署可以邀集地方政府那我們來想辦法讓行政單位來提出多一點預算來讓來解決這些問題包含現在講的如果未來的這些充電設施也跟這些磁磚脫落有一樣必須要用專案來協助很多從"},{"start":388.878,"end":402.757,"text":"包含我的選區接近1500棟的大樓那如果有沒有通過的或者是這些充電設施或者是最重要的已經裝設的充電設施它需要消防署"},{"start":403.998,"end":427.127,"text":"專案的一些補足可能電動車的這些如果萬一有發生火警的時候特斯拉是公開講他們的車不適合用泡沫滅火那現在如果現在所有的這些大樓裡面都是消防設施用泡沫滅火"},{"start":429.369,"end":443.639,"text":"未來消防署相關的這些不管是你要去執行這些安全檢查或者是甚至大家也說了嘛這個讓全體管委會來出這個錢不合理消防署要不要提出專案"},{"start":445.721,"end":462.814,"text":"來補強這些大樓、地下室或者是未來剛剛消防署剛剛國土署有講的大樓的開放空間可以增設這些公共的充電樁我覺得都是必須要由行政單位積極的來提出這些相關的專案讓我們來支持"},{"start":463.695,"end":483.695,"text":"所以今天其實排這一個,幫我放最後一頁排這一個討論我覺得非常的正面,我們很願意來做這些相關的討論也不像上個會期在我們內政委員會所提出來的公職人民選罷法、公投法、人民會組織法、人民會進發補償條例"},{"start":487.498,"end":508.818,"text":"警察人士條例等等這些引起社會紛爭的法案我覺得今天的法案是讓我們可以正面的來提出的但也不要忘記去年一整年我們都沒有機會來討論這些以上請次長署長兩位署長分別來做回應最後一個問題不用"},{"start":511.754,"end":526.702,"text":"我想那個也謝謝委員的質詢今天非常感謝召集人還有各位委員針對這個我們相關的法案充電樁的問題來進行討論因為工藝大廈內的充電樁就如同許多委員所指出的在"},{"start":527.803,"end":550.424,"text":"2019年之前的相關的一些老舊建築我們要怎麼樣子做法令上的修正而且最關鍵的其實是它的防火區化跟安全的問題我們會從這個角度去做積極的研議那確認整個安全的狀況讓所有的管委會區選會覺得說放置這些東西其實不會對大家有影響反而對大家有更多正面的結果"},{"start":552.464,"end":572.607,"text":"蘇董外牆安全專案我了解因為這個部分其實我們在震災在每次地震的時候也會面對這樣的問題所以我們想就針對結構安全的部分未來如何來提高這個相關的補助我想我們收集一些案例以後我們再來我們會來檢討我們的辦法"},{"start":573.968,"end":595.209,"text":"除了結構之外我覺得磁磚脫落那個安全因為磁磚脫落大概現在雖然都是用鼓勵性的所謂鼓勵性就是說不要再貼磁磚了這表示你的本身的那個水泥的構面可能也有本身有一些問題那不適合再用磁磚的話我們可以用這樣類型的專案來協助他我想這也是一個方向國貿社區就很"},{"start":595.689,"end":607.793,"text":"困擾的一點他收的不是管委會的費用他收的是情節費所以這個本身管委會的方式的管理方式可能也是一個問題我們希望來共同來研議看怎麼樣可以解決這個問題"},{"start":611.014,"end":626.803,"text":"我們建築物零零天車場目前已經有泡沫滅火設備所以泡沫滅火設備要做改裝成自動燒水設備我想這個技術不難這些都可以來克服那新設的場所技術不難重點是費用是管委會出或者是消防署要不要研議"},{"start":628.188,"end":641.676,"text":"未來這個電動車的數量到一定的比例的時候去盤點每一棟大樓的消防設施是,這個以前消防署是沒有這樣補助過啦所以我們再來看有沒有空間來處理,謝謝委員好,謝謝李博義委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":575,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時33分）謝謝，請董次長。"],["主席：董次長有請。"],["李委員柏毅：再請吳署長。"],["主席：吳署長有請。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：首先感謝委員會，這個禮拜一我們安排了一個考察，考察的內容其實跟公寓大廈也有關係，但是方向是完全不一樣的，主要是針對老舊公寓大廈外牆脫落造成的安全問題，甚至還有結構的問題。感謝吳署長也到現場，給左營的果貿社區做了很多相關的建議。關於這些相關的建議，接下來跟高雄市政府也會合作，把果貿社區所面臨的外牆脫落以及結構可能必須要評估的安全問題，一併提出相關的方案予以解決。最重要的是，國土署跟市政府可能也必須要評估在公寓大廈自治條例規範中，因為管委會設置的型態不同，可能造成他們所收的管委會費用或者是清潔費等等，有沒有辦法支應可能必須要自籌的相關款項，這些問題我想都必須要解決，這是一個極老社區的安全問題。","在左營跟楠梓我的選區加起來有超過一千五百棟的大樓，在2019年新的建築法規通過之後，拿到使用建築執照，它會有新的電動車充電設施的預留孔，在這超過一千五百棟的大樓裡面可能不到一成，也就是說，還是有接近一千五百棟的大樓可能是我們今天要討論的主題，亦即電動車的充電設備要進入2019年以前就拿到使用執照的大樓，目前的狀況大家也了解是這樣子。如果有2019年以前的大樓住戶想要換電動車，為了環保、為了不要讓別人吸到他的廢氣，他買電動車之前會回去詢問管委會，管委會給的答案如果是OK，說某某樓的住戶已經裝過了，那麼這棟大樓可能就沒有相關的問題，這棟大樓要注意的就是後面的消防問題；如果這棟大樓還必須經過管委會討論的話，關於管委會每個人的意見，其實大部分可能會以第一個費用，第二個安全的問題，大家必須聚焦來做一個討論，最後經過所有區權人的同意，如果在區權人大會裡面有一些紛爭，或者是最後用投票來決定，目前很多公寓大廈管理條例所規範的公寓大廈還是有一些……像剛剛黃捷委員就有說到有一些大樓因為其他的因素沒有同意，可能是投票之後，大部分的區權人覺得這裡不需要，這就是我們今天要解決的另外一個問題。我希望國土署跟地方政府，包括六都以及新竹縣市，甚至是嘉義，可以有一個比較具體的討論，有沒有辦法問到六都，就是我剛剛所講的區權人或者是公寓大廈裡面拒絕或反對住戶申裝充電樁的相關資料？署長，有沒有相關的數據？"],["吳署長欣修：報告委員，的確現在沒有，我想這個部分我們會來了解，可能除了縣市政府以外，我們也會跟全國公寓大廈管理協會來了解看看是不是也有相關的處理資料？因為他們畢竟是全國性的協會，他們可能對這方面也會有一些認知，所以我們都來蒐集看看相關的狀態，還有最重要的是他們協調不成的理由。"],["李委員柏毅：對，其實這是我們今天開會很重要的參考數字，如果今天就要提出方案，一次來解決2019年以前的大樓所有沒有辦法裝設的問題，或者是消防署面對的安全問題，我覺得今天是有一點困難。所以希望國土署也可以協助一下來處理問題。包含高雄2021年的城中城大火後來處理消防相關法規的問題，還有我在禮拜一的時候，邀請署長一起到左營果貿社區去看外牆磁磚脫落的狀況，我想這些問題其實都需要專案來解決。目前全國一致性的規範所規範的是30年以上的老宅，不管是磁磚脫落或者是結構安全的問題，分別必須有自付額一半或者是分別需要……如果是結構安全的問題，可能可以補助到85%等等。我們還是希望針對這些問題，國土署可以邀集地方政府討論，設法讓行政單位提出多一點預算來解決這些問題，包含現在講的，如果未來這些充電設施也跟磁磚脫落的問題一樣，必須要用專案來協助，包含我的選區接近1,500棟的大樓，如果是沒有通過的，或者是充電設施，或者是最重要的，已經裝置充電設施，需要消防署的專案補足電動車萬一發生火警的消防需求，特斯拉公開講，他們的車不適合用泡沫滅火。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["李委員柏毅：現在所有大樓裡面的消防設施是用泡沫滅火，未來消防署不管是去執行安全檢查……甚至大家也說了，讓管委會來出這個錢不合理，消防署要不要提出專案來補強這些大樓地下室？剛剛消防署、國土署有講未來大樓的開放空間可以增設公共的充電樁，我覺得都必須要由行政單位積極地提出相關的專案，讓我們來支持。所以今天其實排這個討論，我覺得非常地正面，我們很願意做相關的討論，不像上個會期在我們內政委員會所提出來的公職人員選罷法、公投法、原民會組織法、原民禁伐補償條例、警察人員人事條例等等引起社會紛爭的法案。我覺得今天的法案是讓我們可以正面提出的，但也不要忘記，去年一整年我們都沒有機會來討論這些。以上請次長、兩位署長分別做回應，最後一個問題不用。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員的質詢。今天非常感謝召集人、還有各位委員針對相關的法案、充電樁的問題進行討論。公寓大廈內的充電樁就如同許多委員所指出的，針對2019年之前的老舊建築，我們要怎麼樣做法令上的修正？而且最關鍵的其實是它的防火區劃跟安全的問題，我們會從這個角度去做積極的研議，確認整個安全的狀況，讓所有的管委會、區權會覺得放置這些東西其實不會對大家有影響，反而對大家有更多正面的結果。"],["李委員柏毅：署長……"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員。"],["李委員柏毅：外牆安全專案。"],["吳署長欣修：我瞭解，這個部分其實我們在震災、每次地震的時候也會面對這樣的問題，所以針對結構安全的部分我們未來如何提高相關的補助，我們會蒐集一些案例以後來檢討我們的辦法。"],["李委員柏毅：除了結構之外，我覺得磁磚脫落那個安全……"],["吳署長欣修：對，磁磚脫落的問題，現在雖然都是用鼓勵性的，所謂鼓勵性，就是鼓勵不要再貼磁磚了！因為磁磚脫落，表示水泥的構面本身可能也有一些問題，不適合再用磁磚，我們可以用這樣類型的專案協助他們，我想這也是一個方向。"],["李委員柏毅：果貿社區很困擾的一點，就是它收的不是管委會的費用，它收的是清潔費，所以……"],["吳署長欣修：對，管委會本身的管理方式可能也是一個問題。"],["李委員柏毅：我們希望共同研議看看怎麼樣可以解決這個問題，謝謝。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員。建築物裡面的停車場目前已經有泡沫滅火設備，所以泡沫滅火設備要改裝成自動撒水設備，我想這個技術不難，其實都可以克服。那新設的場所目前……"],["李委員柏毅：技術不難，重點是費用由管委會出，或者是消防署要不要研議未來電動車的數量到一定比例的時候，去盤點每一棟大樓的消防設施？"],["蕭署長煥章：以前消防署是沒有這樣補助過，我們再來看有沒有什麼空間來處理，謝謝委員。"],["李委員柏毅：研議一下，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員。雖然大家今天都對本席的排案有很多讚美，但我還是要說一下，即便前兩個會期，我們內政委員會也是有很和平的時候，對不對？我們有討論國土計畫法，對不對？我們有討論過消防法、討論過租賃專法。每一個會期難免有政治、難免有民生，但我們希望大家扣緊主題，好嗎？","我跟委員會報告一下，待會等到第15位黃建賓委員詢答完之後，我們休息5分鐘。","下一位請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159106","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159106","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f01dea86a52bc3d9d2f58198bcf8270c1ff1cdb1affc83ff47aa4682f413d97b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:20:40 - 10:33:30","影片長度":"00:12:50","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T10:20:40+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T10:33:30+08:00","duration":770,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4.8572187499999995,"end":11.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11.590343750000002,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":16.77096875,"end":17.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.36159375,"end":31.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17.69909375,"end":18.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.55346875,"end":36.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":36.43034375,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.61596875,"end":36.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.712218750000005,"end":46.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":44.95221875,"end":49.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.002218750000004,"end":53.220968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":53.220968750000004,"end":109.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.23784375,"end":53.305343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.57471875,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.65096875,"end":116.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.78909375,"end":123.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":123.35346875,"end":145.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":145.27409375000002,"end":150.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":150.52221875,"end":151.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.76659375,"end":176.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.52659375000002,"end":179.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.80034375000002,"end":188.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":187.76534375,"end":188.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.72721875000002,"end":188.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":188.74409375000002,"end":188.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.77784375000002,"end":188.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":188.81159375000001,"end":214.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":215.18721875,"end":233.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":233.15909375,"end":234.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.81284375,"end":242.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":242.37284375000002,"end":248.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.59971875000002,"end":251.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":250.43909375,"end":255.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":255.18096875,"end":255.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.43409375000002,"end":256.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":256.10909375,"end":256.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":256.75034375,"end":346.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.76721875000004,"end":256.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.71534375000005,"end":264.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.91346875000005,"end":373.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":374.04846875000004,"end":374.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.08221875000004,"end":375.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.57971875000004,"end":388.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.47659375,"end":391.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.00346875,"end":393.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.89346875,"end":395.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.96909375,"end":400.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":401.84159375,"end":409.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":409.68846875,"end":413.50221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":413.56971875000005,"end":418.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":419.17221875,"end":422.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":422.95221875000004,"end":446.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.33659375,"end":457.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.95096875,"end":467.85659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":466.00034375,"end":507.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.55159375000005,"end":476.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":508.62659375000004,"end":509.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":510.01034375000006,"end":512.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":512.5247187499999,"end":515.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":515.7309687500001,"end":529.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":515.7647187499999,"end":516.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.08534375,"end":516.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.47721875,"end":519.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":528.3872187500001,"end":532.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":530.46284375,"end":534.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":533.92221875,"end":536.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":535.18784375,"end":544.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":538.30971875,"end":540.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":541.68471875,"end":542.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":543.6084687499999,"end":578.0672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":546.9328437500001,"end":547.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":550.8984687500001,"end":551.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.0672187499999,"end":579.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":579.0290937500001,"end":580.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.3915937500001,"end":584.2265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":583.31534375,"end":593.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":590.45346875,"end":592.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":592.84971875,"end":610.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":608.77971875,"end":612.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":611.2265937500001,"end":616.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":616.18784375,"end":627.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":622.6003437500001,"end":623.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":627.15659375,"end":627.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":627.61221875,"end":627.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":627.6797187500001,"end":630.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":630.5147187499999,"end":639.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":638.27721875,"end":639.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":639.54284375,"end":639.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":639.98159375,"end":643.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":641.82096875,"end":642.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":643.08659375,"end":643.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":643.49159375,"end":652.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":650.8490937500001,"end":658.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":656.56971875,"end":689.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":689.93159375,"end":703.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":703.51596875,"end":705.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":703.81971875,"end":713.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":712.3078437500001,"end":726.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":714.65346875,"end":716.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":724.76159375,"end":729.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":727.8159687500001,"end":727.8328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":729.3684687500001,"end":730.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":730.0265937500001,"end":731.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":732.33846875,"end":739.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":739.4765937500001,"end":744.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":744.2859687499999,"end":748.3359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":747.44159375,"end":748.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":748.42034375,"end":748.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":748.97721875,"end":767.1515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":757.00971875,"end":763.5065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":765.68346875,"end":767.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":769.66596875,"end":770.5434687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.155,"end":12.699,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是不是請內政部董事長 能源署吳副署長 交通部黃市長這三位有請 謝謝市長好吳副署長好 還有黃市長好我想請教一下 剛剛交通部黃市長這邊有提到就是目前的電動車的數量請問一下我們目前電動車的數量有多少"},{"start":31.881,"end":51.241,"text":"跟委員報告 截至今年1月也是97,950輛我這邊的數字是106,366輛 大概就是差不多是 因為2月份是要等到這個月的10萬多輛那請問一下汽車數量大概有多少 全國的汽車數量基本上據我印象是差不多快700多萬輛"},{"start":53.417,"end":74.823,"text":"我這邊的數我得到這個統計是868.6萬輛那大概佔了1.15%那請部長看一下這個次長看一下我們的這個統計表格就是我們電動車的數量其實大概主要都分布在六都跟新竹縣市那總數量大概是86860大概佔全國總數的大概快將近87%"},{"start":78.644,"end":83.186,"text":"那依照國發會的淨零排放的路徑計畫會在2030年達到電動車30%的新車的一個佔比然後2035年要達到60%2040年要達到100%的電動車的銷售比例那所以以現在看來現在才1.15%在2030年要達到30%的機率請問一下次長還有這個司長 副署長"},{"start":107.373,"end":129.485,"text":"這個這樣子的達成率有一個辦法嗎我想我們就是努力在推動因為相關的像交通部經濟部其實都非常配合也積極配合國家進行政策所以我們電動車的增加其實是一個國家的也是國際的趨勢我們就努力在推動市長我相信大家都會很努力但是問題在哪裡我們可能要先釐清為什麼到目前只有1.15%"},{"start":130.646,"end":151.406,"text":"以我看來要到2030年要達到30%可以說是幾乎是不可能的任務Mission impossible那為什麼呢問題就在我們今天的主題就是充電樁的一個問題因為我們可以看到為什麼這個大鵬的這個社區大樓的充電樁覆蓋率都很低那請問一下次長知不知道原因是什麼"},{"start":152.81,"end":167.638,"text":"我想委員大概就是各位許多委員都認為說電動車的推動現在最大的困境是電動窗的問題那根據內政部我們建研所的研究其實我們也指出說其實現在國際的規格裡面電動車的在推動裡面他們也發現了電動車充電裝的困境因為全球都類似的狀態"},{"start":174.895,"end":199.037,"text":"所以快速充電跟新的電池的發展其實是日新月異所以在2030年我們要達成這樣相關的目標其實是配合國家跟國際的科技技術是有效可以達成這樣的目的技術沒有問題但現在我相信的是根本沒有充電樁你技術再好它也沒辦法充電那這個問題的話我想就是除了這最大問題大概就是剛剛有提到管委會"},{"start":199.818,"end":214.44,"text":"管委會不肯安裝嘛尤其是對於108年7月以前的大樓因為沒有相關的規範所以他們沒有安裝現在要他自己掏錢出來去安裝一般的管委會其實我想也沒有那樣的財力啦所以說大概就是"},{"start":215.281,"end":233.529,"text":"無非就是安全的問題跟經費的相關問題嘛那現在充電不便也是造成很多人想買電動車而沒有辦法真的去例行的一個原因所以說請教一下次長就官委會他依照我們的相關法規是可以拒絕安裝充電樁的對不對"},{"start":235.29,"end":254.4,"text":"我們要求管委會就是根據公益大廈條例他們就是合一制嘛由區權會來同意所以他是有權可以拒絕嗎只要他管委會不同意的話是可以不用安裝的對嗎我們就是尊重區權會他們的決議狀態市長您就直接回答他是不是可以不要安裝"},{"start":255.413,"end":282.95,"text":"他可以不要安裝 對那這就是問題所在所以要怎麼讓管委會願意去安裝應該才是我們可以討論的一個地方嘛包括說可能有各種方案比如說補助管委會一個相關的計畫或各方面的應該是往這個方向去討論也是一個重點我相信法規大家都可以規範得很完善法規都可以規範得很完全但是實際上能不能真的達到解決這個問題才是重點喔"},{"start":285.131,"end":305.619,"text":"那所以我想這個部分的話當然為什麼管委會拒絕其實我想還有很多的原因包括說他們也擔憂因為最近電動車爆炸的事情相當的多大家對於電池的這個還有整個電力的這個系統是不是負載不足大概都是管委會會討論一個重點那當然還有就是安裝的經費誰要來出因為現在有電動車相對少所以如果我這個停車場有100輛車結果可能只有"},{"start":313.022,"end":331.275,"text":"以剛剛的比例的話一輛電動車不可能為了這一輛去做這樣子的一個充電樁的一個設置所以我覺得這個部分應該是我們要去怎麼提高提高這個購買的使用意願可能要從這個地方來著手那另外請教一下就是"},{"start":332.716,"end":345.363,"text":"如果要達成剛剛講的國發會的淨零排放的這個路徑計劃要在2040年100%的這個電動車的銷售比例的目標請問一下內政部經濟部跟交通部要怎麼配合達成"},{"start":346.957,"end":374.873,"text":"我想就內政部的部分也跟委員跟大家報告就是說最關鍵的還是在於怎麼樣子達到相關的安全的規範所以我們在建築法規跟消防法規我們都會做積極的規劃跟包括剛才談到的消防區防火區劃的設置還有一些排煙系統那我們已經有的相關的消防設施消防規範其實已經公佈了那我們消防的一些救災的設備也都有了那其他部分我們請交通部好請交通部"},{"start":376.796,"end":397.081,"text":"交通部這邊在運營電動化的這部分的話剛剛委員有指教我們在2014年電動小客跟電動機車新車市售比100%的目標那這部分的話我們會跟經濟部一起來共同的有更多的進口的電動車或是國產電動車降低民眾購車的負擔那跟內政部持續的完善相關電動車充電的環境的建制以上"},{"start":402.372,"end":422.365,"text":"經濟部跟委員報告一下就是我們負責的部分大概就是因為電動車他技術一直在進步所以我們相關的那些供電的設備的部分我們會配合電動車技術的進步去改善另外還有一個部分就是因為以後普及設置以後還有一些供電的一些線路的部分這個我們也在督促台電去做好進一步的規劃 以上報告"},{"start":423.358,"end":445.668,"text":"剛剛大家講到都是技術性的問題法規的問題那我相信都可以做得到現在重點我們現在重點就是充電樁的一個設置尤其是在管委會那所以說想請教一下次長就是說如果要達到這個目標的話是不是可以設立社區電力升級的補助專案提供財務的支援跟技術的援助讓符合條件的社區可以來申請經費的補助"},{"start":447.886,"end":459.692,"text":"這個我想我們就帶回去研議我們謝謝委員的建議這個應該相當重要但是我們還是要強調事實上社區不願意設置的最關鍵的因素是安全那電動車他現在也不是電動裝的問題是電動車本身的問題他會突然之間自然"},{"start":465.635,"end":482.598,"text":"好那如果因為這個問題的話那其實我想你們要在2040年達到100%幾乎是不可能嘛因為如果到這樣講法他電動車本身的安全就有問題了所以這個部分我覺得應該是要回去提出相關的不管是在原來電動車的安全那當然我想"},{"start":483.478,"end":507.223,"text":"這個廠商他們會去提升他們自己的安全率那針對老舊社區的部分我們要怎麼去提升他這個充電的這個便利性他才會願意購買嗎那另外就是說如果在個人車位地下室設置充電樁管委會有安全疑慮是不是能夠有相關的法規能夠請這個大樓能夠變更公社的項目"},{"start":510.692,"end":527.888,"text":"報告委員其實現在個人在裝的時候其實官員會不會反對其實都是安全的顧慮其實它跟公設是比較無關那我們現在也有在鼓勵在今天有些縣市也在示範就是說先用開放空間去停"},{"start":528.448,"end":556.956,"text":"所以挪出一樓的開放空間來做是可行的?對 而不是直接下到 而不是直接先下到底下所以這樣子是可行的嗎?對 就慢慢來讓民眾可以接受電能源 也等待電池的技術提升因為電池的技術做商也還可以所以挪出一樓的開放區域設置公共充電樁 這個方案是可行那可能也要請就是我們國土署這邊能夠繼續來研議喔然後另外呢就是說我想請教一下次長喔 就是"},{"start":557.976,"end":567.042,"text":"我們現在有108年7月之後有新增停車空間因依法用電設備的這個裝置規則預留電動車充電相關設備跟裝置的裝設空間那當然108年7月以後的理論上都有裝充電這個裝對不對是都有預留可是實際上真的是這樣嗎"},{"start":581.788,"end":605.837,"text":"我們應該要求的規範是這樣子就我的瞭解啦我們收到的成績就有些建商可能為了省錢他只是預留裝設的空間他並沒有拉線那這個漏洞是不是應該要補起來因為當時就是在考量就是說108年修法就是留一個管線的預留空間也就是說讓這個未來工藝大廈的這個管委會跟區分所有權人可以來決定"},{"start":607.698,"end":629.692,"text":"當我決定要設的時候所以現在的法規只要預留空間不用拉線是這樣嗎這樣可以讓區權會他有權去做決定可是也有的建商為了省錢他並沒有擴充那個電力容量因為你現在只要他拉線嘛所以他電力容量是不足的到時候等到真正要裝的時候又因為電力容量不足報告因為他就是"},{"start":630.632,"end":659.33,"text":"其實到時候有需要他只要跟台電有簽訂相關的新的用電契約就可以重新裝設要不然否則這個那這個費用誰來出呢所以為什麼要獨立電費啊所以是管委會嘛對不對對對對那我的意思是說建商當時應該要我們理解的應該是建商當時就應該要做這個電力擴充的問題可是不同的用電契約它的基本電費是不一樣也就是說我幫你設了可是以後的電費還是要管委會主如果沒有設的時候我的意思是說設這件事情是"},{"start":659.75,"end":670.359,"text":"也是管委會要出是嗎因為我知道的狀況就是說因為很多建商為了省錢它的電力設備並沒有擴充到那麼多這個當然這個可以再討論一下因為時間的關係最後一個問題想請教一下就是國發會在這個剛講的就是希望在這個2040年"},{"start":677.705,"end":697.588,"text":"之後戒掉石油停售燃油的汽機車那請問一下吳副署長當全國開始大量的安裝充電樁之後經濟部有沒有評估我們的電力需求會成長多少有我們在大概每年的大概最近也會出就是說大概可能到五六月我們會出一個電力資源報告"},{"start":698.269,"end":727.601,"text":"我們基本上就會根據國安會的還有交通部的一些預測會去調整我們有關的這個需求因為我在看到你們112年的報告完全都沒有提到你們只有預估AI會造成的這個電力成長的需求但沒有預估到這個充電樁會成立我想有啦那個可能是 那是多少我們因為詳細的數字我再補充給委員就是說因為我們之前在大概在111年那時候之前的版本都有提到說充電樁會充電之後那是不是會後是麻煩提供給我們"},{"start":727.981,"end":751.657,"text":"那我的重點是會不會有電力缺口我想不會啦 因為其實我們現在正在也在研究當然這也要看車商願不願意啦就是因為電動車的電池其實可以當作我們電力掉入的一個環節所以它在整個系統上面不見得是完全是一個負擔那可能會後麻煩您把這個因為我的重點是到底我們現在已經"},{"start":752.177,"end":766.366,"text":"缺電整這樣子了到時候的再加上我們的這個充電裝在全部2040安裝全部的安裝完成之後我們電力需求一定會更大那到底會不會有對缺電的問題會不會有電力缺口不會我想是不會不會規劃好謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時20分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請內政部董次長、能源署吳副署長、交通部黃司長？"],["主席：三位有請，謝謝。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：次長好，吳副署長好，還有黃司長好。我想請教一下，剛剛交通部黃司長有提到目前電動車的數量，請問一下，我們目前電動車的數量有多少？"],["黃司長運貴：跟委員報告，截至今年1月是9萬7,950輛。"],["許委員宇甄：我這邊的數字是10萬0,636輛，大概就是……"],["黃司長運貴：差不多是這個數字。"],["許委員宇甄：對，差不多是……"],["黃司長運貴：因為2月份的資料要等到這個月15號才會出來。"],["許委員宇甄：OK。請問一下汽車數量大概有多少？全國的汽車數量？"],["黃司長運貴：據我的印象，好像是差不多快七百多萬。"],["許委員宇甄：我這邊得到的統計數字是868.6萬輛，大概占了1.15%。請次長看一下這個統計表格，我們電動車的數量大概主要都分布在六都跟新竹縣市，總數量大概是8萬6,860，占全國總數將近87%。依照國發會淨零排放路徑計畫，會在2030年達到電動車30%的新車占比，2035年要達到60%，2040年要達到100%電動車的銷售比例，以此看來現在才1.15%，在2030年要達到30%的機率，請問一下次長，還有司長、副署長，這樣的達成率有辦法嗎？"],["董次長建宏：我們就是努力在推動，因為相關的像交通部、經濟部其實都非常配合，也積極配合國家淨零政策，所以我們電動車的增加，其實是一個國家的方向，也是國際的趨勢，我們努力在推動。"],["許委員宇甄：次長，我相信大家都會很努力，但是問題在哪裡，我們可能要先釐清。為什麼到目前只有1.15%？依我看來到2030年要達到30%，可以說幾乎是不可能的任務（mission impossible），為什麼呢？問題就在我們今天的主題，就是充電樁的問題。我們可以看到為什麼大部分社區大樓的充電樁覆蓋率都很低，請問一下次長知不知道原因是什麼？"],["董次長建宏：許多委員都認為電動車的推動，現在最大的困境是充電樁的問題。根據內政部建研所的研究，我們也指出其實現在國際的規格裡面，在電動車的推動裡面，他們也發現電動車充電樁的困境，因為全球都有類似的狀態，所以快速充電跟新電池的發展，其實是日新月異，在2030年我們要達成這樣相關的目標，其實配合國家跟國際的科技技術是有效可以達成這樣的目的。"],["許委員宇甄：技術沒有問題，但現在根本沒有充電樁，你技術再好，它也沒辦法充電。我想這個問題，除了最大的問題大概就是剛剛有提到管委會不肯安裝，尤其是對於108年7月以前的大樓，因為沒有相關的規範，所以他們沒有安裝。現在要他自己掏錢出來去安裝，一般的管委會我想也沒有那樣的財力，所以大概無非就是安全的問題跟經費的相關問題。現在充電不便也是造成很多人想買電動車而沒有辦法真的去力行的原因。所以請教一下次長，管委會依照我們的相關法規是可以拒絕安裝充電樁的，對不對？"],["董次長建宏：我們要求管委會根據公寓大廈管理條例，他們就是合議制，由區權會來同意。"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以它有權可以拒絕嗎？只要管委會不同意的話，是可以不用安裝的，對嗎？"],["董次長建宏：我們尊重區權會他們的決議。"],["許委員宇甄：對嘛！次長，您就直接回答，它是不是可以不要安裝？"],["董次長建宏：它可以不要安裝。"],["許委員宇甄：對！這就是問題所在，所以要怎麼讓管委會願意去安裝，應該才是我們可以討論的地方。"],["董次長建宏：是。"],["許委員宇甄：包括可能有各種方案，比如說，補助管委會一個相關的計畫或各方面的，應該是往這個方向去討論，也是一個重點。我相信大家都可以將法規規範得很完善、很完全，但實際上能不能真的達到解決這個問題才是重點。這個部分的話，為什麼管委會會拒絕？我想還有很多的原因，包括他們也擔憂，因為最近電動車爆炸的事情相當多，大家對於電池還有整個電力系統是不是負載不足，大概都是管委會會討論的重點。當然還有安裝的經費誰要來出，因為現在有電動車的相對少，如果這個停車場有100輛車，以剛剛的比例來看，可能只有一輛電動車，管委會也不可能為了這一輛設置充電樁。所以我覺得這個部分我們應該要去想怎麼提高購買的使用意願，可能要從這個地方來著手。","另外請教一下，如果要達成剛剛講的國發會淨零排放路徑計畫，要在2040年達成電動車銷售比例100%的目標，請問一下內政部、經濟部跟交通部要怎麼配合達成？"],["董次長建宏：就內政部的部分，也跟委員、跟大家報告，最關鍵的還是在於怎麼樣達到相關安全的規範。所以我們在建築法規跟消防法規都會做積極地規劃跟設備，包括剛才談到防火區劃的設置，還有一些排煙系統，我們已經有相關的消防設施、消防規範其實已經公布了，消防的一些救災設備也都有了，其他部分我們請交通部。"],["許委員宇甄：好，請交通部。"],["趙專門委員晉緯：交通部在運具電動化的部分，剛剛委員已經有指教我們在2040年電動小客車跟電動機車的新車市售比百分百的目標，這部分我們會跟經濟部一起共同努力，有更多的進口電動車或是國產電動車，降低民眾購車的負擔，並跟內政部持續完善相關電動車充電環境的建置，以上。"],["吳副署長志偉：經濟部跟委員報告一下，我們負責的部分大概就是，因為電動車的技術一直在進步，相關供電設備部分，我們會配合電動車技術的進步去改善。另外還有一個部分，因為普及設施以後還有一些供電線路部分，我們也在督促台電去做好進一步的規劃，以上報告。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛大家講到都是技術性的問題、法規的問題，我相信都可以做得到，但我們今天的重點就是充電樁的設置，尤其是在管委會。所以想請教一下次長，如果要達到這個目標，是不是可以設立社區電力升級的補助專案，提供財務的支援跟技術的援助，讓符合條件的社區可以來申請經費的補助？"],["董次長建宏：這個我們就帶回去研議，謝謝委員的建議，這個應該相當重要。但是我們還是要強調，事實上社區不願意設置的最關鍵因素是安全，電動車現在也不是只有充電樁的問題，其實是電動車本身的問題，它會突然之間自燃，所以這個部分我們會去處理。"],["許委員宇甄：好，如果是因為這個問題，我想你們要在2040年達到100%幾乎是不可能。如果照這樣的講法，電動車本身的安全就是問題了，所以這個部分，我覺得應該是要回去提出相關的，不管是在原來電動車的安全上，當然我想廠商會去提升他們自己的安全率。針對老舊社區的部分，我們要怎麼去提升充電的便利性，他才會願意購買，好不好？"],["董次長建宏：當然、當然。我們會去處理。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，如果在個人車位、地下室設置充電樁，管委會有安全疑慮，是不是有相關的法規能夠請大樓變更公設項目？"],["吳署長欣修：報告委員，現在個人在裝的時候，管委會會反對，其實都是安全的顧慮，它跟公設比較無關。我們現在也有在鼓勵，有些縣市也在示範，就是先用開放空間去停，而不要直接下到……"],["許委員宇甄：所以挪出一樓的開放空間來做，是可行的是嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：而不是直接先下到地下室。"],["許委員宇甄：OK，所以這樣子是可行的嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：對！慢慢來讓民眾可以接受，第二個……"],["許委員宇甄：所以是會有相關的……"],["吳署長欣修：也等待電池的技術提升，因為電池的技術車商也還在研究。"],["許委員宇甄：OK，所以挪出一樓的開放區域設置公共充電樁，這個方案可行，可能也要請國土署繼續研議。"],["吳署長欣修：對，好。"],["許委員宇甄：另外我想請教一下次長，108年7月之後有新增停車空間應依用戶用電設備裝置規則預留供電動車充電相關設備及裝置的裝設空間，理論上當然108年7月以後的都有裝充電樁對不對？"],["董次長建宏：是，都有預留。"],["許委員宇甄：可是實際上真的是這樣嗎？"],["董次長建宏：我們應該要求的規範是這樣子……"],["許委員宇甄：就我的了解，我們收到的陳情是有些建商可能為了省錢，他只是預留裝設的空間，他並沒有拉線，這個漏洞是不是應該要補起來？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為當時考量108年的修法是留一個管線的預留空間，也就是說，讓未來公寓大廈的管委會跟區分所有權人可以來決定，當我決定要設的時候……"],["許委員宇甄：所以現在的法規只要預留空間、不用拉線，是這樣嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：對，不用，這樣可以讓區權會有權去做決定。"],["許委員宇甄：可是有的建商為了省錢，他並沒有擴充電力容量，由於你現在只要他拉線，所以他電力容量是不足的，等到真正要裝的時候，又因為電力容量不足……"],["吳署長欣修：報告委員，如果到時候有需要，他只要跟台電簽訂相關新的用電契約，就可以重新裝設，否則不同的用電……"],["許委員宇甄：這個費用誰來出呢？"],["吳署長欣修：所以為什麼要獨立電表……"],["許委員宇甄：所以是管委會對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：對。"],["許委員宇甄：我的意思是說，我們的理解應該是建商當時就應該要做電力擴充，可是有的建商……"],["吳署長欣修：可是不同的用電契約它的基本電費是不一樣的，也就是說，我幫你設了，以後的電費還是要管委會出，如果沒有設的時候……"],["許委員宇甄：我知道，我的意思是說設這件事情也是管委會要出是嗎？據我所知道的狀況，很多建商為了省錢，他的電力設備並沒有擴充到那麼多，當然這個可以再討論一下……"],["吳署長欣修：對，我……"],["許委員宇甄：因為時間的關係，最後一個問題想請教一下，國發會剛剛說希望在2040年之後停售燃油汽機車。請問吳副署長，當全國開始大量安裝充電樁之後，經濟部有沒有評估我們的電力需求會成長多少？"],["吳副署長志偉：有，可能到5、6月時我們會提出電力資源報告，基本上我們會根據國發會及交通部的一些預測去調整有關的需求。"],["許委員宇甄：因為我看到你們112年的報告完全都沒有提到，你們只有預估AI所造成的電力成長需求，但沒有預估到充電樁的部分。"],["吳副署長志偉：我想有啦，可能是因為……"],["許委員宇甄：那是多少？"],["吳副署長志偉：詳細數字我再補充給委員，大概在111年之前的版本都有提到充電樁的布建……"],["許委員宇甄：會後是不是麻煩提供給我？"],["吳副署長志偉：好。"],["許委員宇甄：我的重點是會不會有電力缺口？"],["吳副署長志偉：我想不會啦！其實我們現在也在研究，當然，這也要看車商願不願意，因為電動車的電池可以當作電力調度的一個環節，所以它在整個系統上面不見得完全是一個負擔。"],["許委員宇甄：會後麻煩您把資料提供給我，我的重點是我們現在已經缺電成這樣子了，再加上充電樁在2040年全部安裝完成之後的電力需求一定會更大，到底會不會有缺電的問題，會不會有電力缺口？"],["吳副署長志偉：不會，我想是不會，我們會規劃好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159105","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159105","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f7cc45f19d066e5412f58198bcf8270c1ff1cdb1affc83ff4da6c27b9980abdb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:07:50 - 10:20:35","影片長度":"00:12:45","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T10:07:50+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T10:20:35+08:00","duration":765,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.82721875,"end":8.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.008468750000002,"end":9.919718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.25721875,"end":10.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.69471875,"end":19.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.33596875,"end":36.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.80159375,"end":38.134718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.59034375,"end":42.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.38721875,"end":69.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.69096875000001,"end":73.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.28096875,"end":79.59659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.98346875,"end":96.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.70784375000001,"end":97.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.11284375000001,"end":97.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.90596875,"end":122.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.06659375000001,"end":142.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.03534375,"end":134.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.46846875,"end":154.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.79659375,"end":149.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.67346875,"end":172.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.54909375,"end":174.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.14721875,"end":200.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.95721875,"end":205.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.19284375,"end":208.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.92221875,"end":210.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.20471875,"end":211.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.60971875,"end":218.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.18659375000001,"end":233.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.07034375,"end":236.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.51721875,"end":256.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.08784375,"end":269.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.63471875,"end":268.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":268.74846875000003,"end":274.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":274.21596875,"end":300.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.04721875,"end":302.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":303.34221875000003,"end":310.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.59846875,"end":313.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.61909375000005,"end":318.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.37346875000003,"end":325.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.13596875,"end":328.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.87409375000004,"end":343.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":343.99409375000005,"end":347.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":347.35221875,"end":348.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.05659375000005,"end":349.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":350.08596875,"end":352.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":352.24596875000003,"end":353.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.81534375,"end":371.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.71534375000005,"end":373.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":373.82909375,"end":378.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.67221875,"end":383.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.32534375,"end":384.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.57846875,"end":390.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.90659375,"end":399.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.74534375,"end":402.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":403.03971875,"end":423.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":424.01534375,"end":437.12721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.56596875,"end":439.20284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":439.59096875,"end":441.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":441.19409375000004,"end":498.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":499.22721875,"end":512.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":512.54159375,"end":581.1553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":581.20596875,"end":584.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":584.83409375,"end":599.8359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":600.34221875,"end":611.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.73284375,"end":618.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.85409375,"end":622.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.24596875,"end":626.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.7178437499999,"end":627.1397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.47721875,"end":631.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.7297187500001,"end":651.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.3003437500001,"end":669.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.5009687500001,"end":668.7534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":669.07409375,"end":679.7222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.22596875,"end":696.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":690.9778437500001,"end":691.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":691.9734687499999,"end":702.6553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.13659375,"end":704.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":703.95471875,"end":715.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.6628437500001,"end":709.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":715.6997187500001,"end":716.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":716.9990937500002,"end":761.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":731.93346875,"end":732.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.96284375,"end":734.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":759.6928437500001,"end":760.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.4353437500001,"end":762.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":763.05096875,"end":764.97471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.207,"end":10.829,"text":"謝謝主席 有請次長董事長有請委員好好 次長好我們今天是討論電動充電行為的消防安全與用戶的權利需兼顧消防安全與充電設備補給電動車充電雖然是促進市長"},{"start":37.129,"end":44.255,"text":"發展但高功率電流可引發高引發高熱過熱還有短路甚至可可能會引發火災所以呢消防安全的問題不容忽視現行消防法規還要再加強我們民眾充電設施現在需求越來越多請問我們次長"},{"start":63.812,"end":78.174,"text":"你知道去年台灣的電動車總銷售量是多少嗎還有我們的每年的成長率是多少嗎這我是不是請交通部來做回應他們是相關主管機關好 謝謝"},{"start":88.864,"end":102.669,"text":"跟委員報告,截至今年1月子,整個全國的電動小客製是97,950輛所以說我們是一直在成長,是因為我們政府在推動"},{"start":103.609,"end":106.13,"text":"所以我們政府在推動我們人民也是因為有環保的觀念也提升了所以電動車補給其實每年都一直在成長但是我們政府沒有準備好讓我們人民安心的使用"},{"start":123.18,"end":126.864,"text":"那請問我們政策落實的時候呢 我們經濟部跟我們的內政部有沒有去共同去開會或者討論有沒有來往 有沒有覺得說我們電動車增加了這樣有沒有兼顧建築還有消防的安全呢"},{"start":143.762,"end":147.687,"text":"因為剛才我問就是市長不知道 要問交通部等下問到其他你要問其他所以你們都沒有就是橫向的溝通也沒有就是共同來去討論出更好的方法因為我剛才我看到從頭到尾"},{"start":165.465,"end":170.326,"text":"你都打太極拳啊我們在準備我們已經在怎麼樣怎麼樣怎麼樣我希望說我們是要聽我講完再教你回答好嗎所以說我們希望說要共同來去找出今天來的不是來報告我們是來解決問題要有方式方法"},{"start":188.131,"end":210.7,"text":"來解決問題我們才要來安排不要因為我們沒有看到你們來去解決問題今天等到拖到我們立法院來安排報告但是我看報告裡面還是沒有真正的完整的規劃措施所以我再請教你好你可以回答"},{"start":211.704,"end":217.709,"text":"那謝謝委員首先我們跟各部會其實都有相關的聯繫那因為我們電動車的設置跟電動車的進口電動車的裝那個它的規格其實分屬交通部跟經濟部去主管"},{"start":227.498,"end":254.916,"text":"我們根據他們這些規格跟規範那麼在公寓大廈以及在相關的停車空間這是屬於建築環境空間的部分就它的相關安全就是由我們內政部來制定所以剛才跟各位委員報告就是我們在整個建管的部分透過公寓大廈管理條例等等還有建築技術規則法則我們將相關的安全還有消防法我們都明確的去規定它的安全設置是什麼"},{"start":255.376,"end":274.464,"text":"那也依據這些安全設置經濟部跟交通部他們就去回推他們基本上他們要進口的車輛或者是相關的車輛的電池的相關的規格規範是什麼我們是這樣子互相支援跟搭配雖然是這樣子在2019年5月也修正就是建築基礎規則"},{"start":276.365,"end":300.215,"text":"還有要求一流電動車的充電空間但實際上非六都的地區充電人還是不足所以就社區大樓建設充電也困難受益就是住戶剛才你說的就是社區啊住戶啊還有社區的經費這樣子的話就是很多的申請也是"},{"start":301.115,"end":320.543,"text":"重重的困難還有更誇張的是連法院都不認可充電樁的必要性請問市長你知道台灣高等法院在111年的3至第621號的民事判決裡面說的是什麼嗎不好意思請委員指教"},{"start":329.262,"end":343.056,"text":"你不知道嘛所以說重不重視就知道了當前有他的答案是說當前公有充電裝甚至私人大賣場的充電裝設備建置已發布補給但並非為矽增停車位的"},{"start":353.826,"end":360.11,"text":"裝備裝飾還有細增充電樁的設備被高級無從使用電動車因此充電樁根本不是電動車使用者的必備的選項所以請問市長既然我們國家現在要推動電動車法院覺得有爭議你怎麼看待這個判決"},{"start":384.707,"end":398.736,"text":"我想我們尊重司法的判決那本部的職責就是依據相關的規範我們去將整個的建物安全跟公共空間的安全我們去增加所以我們修訂了相關的消防法律跟建築法律所以才說嘛我們是尊重但是我們國家要推動所以推動我們一定要橫向來去連結嘛你們推動但是呢又沒有說做好"},{"start":412.265,"end":440.865,"text":"什么叫做一条龙的作业你们去宣传我们人民依照推动来去执行但是我们政府没有准备好让我们人民安心来去做所以呢大家普遍有这个电动车了但是我们没有普遍让大家使用安全所以我看到的就是不管是报告还是我们次长各个部会回应都是针对后续处理"},{"start":441.385,"end":446.087,"text":"因為為什麼最近就是電視上常常新聞就是爆炸嘛所以你們就針對這件事情來污弄我們但是都是在擺太平沒有具體的規劃所以我們希望是你們要有一個具體的規劃讓我們覺得是說你們是有準備來報告來準備要怎麼做那我們就不會一直再去問你去找出問題來去問你嘛"},{"start":468.956,"end":473.419,"text":"所以我們是來的是要報告說我們針對這件事情我們要怎麼做會更好所以我覺得有幾項要針對這個來去建議因為時間的關係我們我有四個重點建議我們內政部這邊來跟各個部會來做討論要如何去改進如何去達成我們人民的需求第一個就是"},{"start":499.717,"end":518.189,"text":"優先修法針對工藝大廈管理條例與建設科技的規則進行修正明確規劃管理委員審查機制並要求新建案強制設置一定比例的充電"},{"start":519.15,"end":524.391,"text":"設備還有第二個政府應統計標準因為剛才說這個是地方的這個是中央的到最後推來推去中央的規定要全國充電措施範圍避免地方政府擱置為政所以影響公平性的補給率就會不一致會產生不一致"},{"start":545.657,"end":547.838,"text":"就會產生不同的不安全就會讓人民用的不安心第三要提供補助與技術支持針對老舊的社區要推動電力系統也要提升計劃並提供充電的測試的補助也降低租戶設備的成本這樣大家就是買電動車大家覺得說已經有管這個設備了我們針對這個環保"},{"start":575.269,"end":578.33,"text":"達成我們環島的規定所以我們要全方位的來去做規劃這樣子的話才能達到我們安心讓民眾安心第四個來建議爭議解決的機制對於無理阻擾就是設置的在社區也提供行政申請以調解的機制"},{"start":600.796,"end":623.19,"text":"並保障我們的租屋的權益才不會影響所以說以上四個建議次長你覺得行得通嗎?能做到嗎?我想首先謝謝委員的指教那也要跟委員做個報告就是說其實相關充電樁的設置其實各部會都有相關的補助跟協助但是目前現階段從我們從國際的經驗裡面看到的"},{"start":626.752,"end":648.566,"text":"案例真正造成火災或危險的事情是電動車本身所以我們現在目前所有的相關的研議跟研究是針對電動車本身發生爆炸之後他怎麼樣子能夠有效的被撲滅能夠有效會防火所以我們才會去化設防火區間我們才去討論說怎麼樣做排煙的消防設施等等這些相關的規劃的設計這也是新的"},{"start":652.388,"end":667.434,"text":"目前我們所面對的最新的挑戰因為國際上相關的充電的規範我們也都是follow這些充電的規範事實上並沒有什麼問題那我們剛才交通部也說了他們其實對於這個充電的補助也都非常的多所以但是剛剛看到你們報告裡面緊急插頭只要221個重點不是在充電樁重點是在整個防火的部分特別是全國只要94個你覺得這樣足夠嗎"},{"start":679.059,"end":683.263,"text":"現在重點是在車輛起火的部分所以我們會有持續的後續相關的設備的增進那這些設備的增進就如同我們剛剛蕭署長也提到的其實可能也要拜託大院長請出將我們的相關的經費所以我希望是說我們不要再以發生後來去處理是我們一定要去制定發生前的一些規則"},{"start":704.542,"end":710.144,"text":"要去發聲前的我們我講的是說發聲前的還有說我們社區因為我們要推動我們人民依照我們政府的推動環保對不對所以呢大家也就是熱絡的去買這樣子的車但是我們希望說當我們要推動我們後續的設備後續的措施預防"},{"start":730.09,"end":735.376,"text":"我们一定要去做好才不会产生后面不是说我们针对产生后面再来怎么样去做措施所以我们是要希望的是全方位的还有横向的去沟通横向的去"},{"start":745.58,"end":760.399,"text":"互相去協助才不會踢皮球才能達到我們人民的需求使用安全這個就是我希望我們次長就是後續要有達成這樣子的共識以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":471,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（10時8分）謝謝主席。有請次長。"],["主席：董次長有請。"],["董次長建宏：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：次長好。我們今天是討論電動車充電行為的消防安全與用戶權利需兼顧消防安全與充電設備普及，電動車充電雖然促進市場發展，但高功率電流可能引發過熱及短路，甚至可能會引發火災，所以消防安全的問題不容忽視，現行消防法規還要再加強。現在民眾對充電設施的需求越來越多，請問次長，你知道去年臺灣的電動車總銷售量是多少？還有每年的成長率是多少？"],["董次長建宏：這我是不是請交通部來做回應？他們是相關的主管機關，謝謝。"],["黃司長運貴：跟委員報告，截至今年1月止，全國電動小客車是9萬7,950輛。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以一直在成長是因為政府在推動，是不是？除了政府在推動，人民也因為環保觀念提升了，所以電動車其實每年都一直在成長，但是我們政府沒有準備好讓人民安心的使用。請問政策要落實的時候，經濟部和內政部有沒有共同開會討論？你們之間有沒有來往？當電動車增加時有沒有兼顧建築以及消防安全呢？我剛才問次長，次長不知道，你說這個要問交通部，等一下我再問到其他問題，你又說要問其他的單位。所以你們都沒有橫向溝通，也沒有共同討論出更好的方法。我剛才看到你從頭到尾都在打太極拳，說我們在準備或是我們已經在怎麼樣、怎麼樣、怎麼樣。"],["董次長建宏：跟委員報告，內政部所轄管的範圍是整個建物安全及安全設置……"],["麥委員玉珍：聽我講完再請你回答，好嗎？"],["董次長建宏：好。"],["麥委員玉珍：我希望你們要共同找出問題，今天不是來報告而已，而是要解決問題，所以要有方式、方法解決問題，因為我們都沒有看到你們在解決問題，才等到、拖到今天立法院安排報告。但是我看到報告裡面還是沒有真正完整的規劃、措施，所以我才會來請教你，你可以回答了。"],["董次長建宏：謝謝委員。首先，我們跟各部會其實都有相關的聯繫，因為電動車的進口以及規格是分屬交通部與經濟部主管，我們根據這些規格及規範，在公寓大廈以及相關的停車空間屬於建築環境空間的部分，就其相關安全是由我們內政部來制定。所以我剛才有跟各位委員報告，在整個建管的部分，透過公寓大廈管理條例等等，還有建築技術規則、法則，我們在相關安全還有消防法都有明確規定它的安全設置是什麼，也依據這些安全設置，經濟部和交通部會去回推要進口的車輛或者是相關車輛的電池規格、規範是什麼，我們是這樣子互相支援和搭配。"],["麥委員玉珍：雖然是這樣子，在2019年5月也修正建築技術規則，並要求預留電動車的充電空間，但實際上非六都地區的充電設備還是不足，且舊社區大樓建設充電設備也有困難，受限於剛才你說的社區、住戶以及社區經費，讓很多的申請也是重重困難。更誇張的是，連法院都不認可充電樁的必要性，請問次長，你知道臺灣高等法院111年度上字第621號民事判決裡面說的是什麼嗎？"],["董次長建宏：不好意思，請委員指教。"],["麥委員玉珍：你不知道嘛！所以你們重不重視就知道了。此判決指出「當前公有充電樁甚至私人大賣場之充電樁設備建置愈發普及，並非未於系爭停車位裝設系爭充電樁設備，被告即無從使用電動車」，因此，充電樁根本不是電動車使用者的必備選項。請問次長，既然我們國家現在要推動電動車，然而法院覺得有爭議，你怎麼看待這個判決？"],["董次長建宏：我們尊重司法的判決，本部的職責就是依據相關的規範，將整個建物安全及公共空間的安全增加，所以我們修訂相關的消防法令和建築法令。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你們只是尊重，國家要推動政策一定要橫向連結，但是你們要推動卻又沒有做好，什麼叫作一條龍作業？人民依照你們的宣傳、推動去執行，但是我們政府沒有準備好讓人民安心去做。所以雖然大家普遍有電動車了，但是卻沒有普遍地讓大家安心使用。我看到不管是報告，還是次長及各個部會回應都是針對後續的處理，為什麼？因為最近常常在電視上看到爆炸的新聞，所以你們針對這件事情來糊弄我們，都是在打太極，沒有具體規劃，所以我們希望你們要有一個具體規劃，讓我們覺得你們是有準備好來報告的，或是準備要怎麼做，我們才不會一直再找出問題去問你，所以你們應該針對這件事情報告要怎麼做會更好。","我針對這個部分有幾項建議，因為時間關係，我有四個重點建議內政部跟各個部會討論。要如何改進以達成我們人民的需求：第一個，優先修法，針對公寓大廈管理條例與建築技術規則進行修正，明確規範管理委員審查機制，並要求新建案強制設置一定比例的充電設備。第二個，政府應統一標準，因為剛才你們說這個是地方的、這個是中央的，到最後就是推來推去。中央要規定全國充電設置範圍，避免地方政府各自為政，影響公平性和普及率，導致不一致，產生不一致就會產生不同的不安全，讓人民用得不安心。第三個，提供補助與技術支持，針對老舊社區要推動電力系統提升計劃，並提供充電設置補助，也降低住戶的設備成本，這樣大家買電動車才會覺得已經有這個設備了，我們就針對環保達成環保的規定，所以我們要全方位去做規劃，這樣才能讓民眾安心。第四個，建立爭議解決機制，對於無理阻撓設置的社區提供行政申請與調解機制，並保障住戶的權益不會受到影響。以上四個建議，次長，你覺得行得通嗎？能做到嗎？"],["董次長建宏：首先，謝謝委員的指教，也要跟委員報告，相關充電樁的設置，其實各部會都有相關的補助跟協助，但是目前現階段，我們從國際的經驗裡面看到的案例，真正造成火災或危險情事的是電動車本身。所以我們目前所有相關的研議和研究都是針對電動車本身發生爆炸之後，怎麼樣能夠有效地被撲滅，能夠有效被防火，所以我們才會去劃設防火區間，我們才去討論怎麼樣做排煙的消防設施等等，這些相關的規劃設計。這也是目前我們所面對到最新的挑戰，因為我們也都是follow這些國際上相關的充電規範，事實上並沒有什麼問題，剛才交通部也說到他們對於充電補助都非常的多，但是重點不是在充電樁……"],["麥委員玉珍：我看到你們的報告裡面提到緊急插頭只有221個……"],["董次長建宏：對，重點不是在充電樁，重點是在整個防火的部分，特別是對於車輛防火……"],["麥委員玉珍：鋰電池專用滅火器全國只有94個，你覺得這樣足夠嗎？"],["董次長建宏：現在重點是在車輛起火的部分，所以我們會有持續的後續相關設備的增進，這些設備的增進就如同剛才蕭署長也提到的，可能也要拜託大院儘速將我們相關的經費解凍，這樣我們就可以趕快來作業。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝次長，我的時間有限，時間已經到了，我希望你們不要在事情發生後才去處理。"],["董次長建宏：是，我們是要制定發生前的一些規範。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，要在事情發生前，我講的是發生前的。社區、人民依照政府推動的環保政策，大家也熱絡的去買這樣子的車，但是我們希望當我們要推動後續的設備、後續的措施，依法我們一定要去做好，才不會產生後面……"],["董次長建宏：是！我們目前正在努力，謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：不是針對後面所產生的，再怎麼樣去做措施，所以我們希望是全方位的，還有橫向的去溝通、橫向的互相去協助，才不會踢皮球，才能達到人民的需求、使用安全，這就是我希望次長後續要達成這樣的共識，以上，謝謝。"],["董次長建宏：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：好，謝謝。下一位我們請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":82,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-2","speakers":["牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","張智倫","張宏陸","王美惠","黃捷","麥玉珍","許宇甄","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","郭昱晴","吳琪銘","洪孟楷","林楚茵","黃建賓","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","黃健豪","李坤城","王鴻薇","邱志偉","張啓楷","蔡易餘","葉元之","高金素梅","丁學忠","翁曉玲","王義川"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請內政部部長劉世芳、經濟部、交通部、金融監督管理委員會、台灣電力股份有限公司就「公\n寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令、國家標準、建築設計、管理維護、火災預防措施及相\n關保險類別與要保人之認定」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00001"}}},{"id":"159104","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159104","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f014694617fb736bb6de99780e8e59786ff1cdb1affc83ff4b8c40d3938d270f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"10:54:17 - 11:03:19","影片長度":"00:09:02","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n【本次會議若因當日加開院會而停開，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T10:54:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:03:19+08:00","duration":542,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-3-19-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.77221875,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.36659375,"end":13.446593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.344093750000003,"end":21.934718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.512843750000002,"end":21.563468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.39034375,"end":45.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.98159375,"end":55.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.00534375,"end":58.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.53659375,"end":58.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.04284375,"end":61.000343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.30409375000001,"end":81.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.99284375,"end":83.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.03471875000001,"end":98.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.61034375000001,"end":105.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.49534375,"end":109.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.75221875000001,"end":114.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.83659375,"end":109.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.90409375,"end":110.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.62096875,"end":112.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.40971875000001,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.94409375000001,"end":125.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.97346875000001,"end":126.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.12096875,"end":127.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.70721875000001,"end":132.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.51659375,"end":133.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.20846875,"end":134.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.74409375000002,"end":137.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.47784375,"end":152.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.31096875,"end":152.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.01971875,"end":153.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.67784375000002,"end":153.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.67346875,"end":154.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.69034375,"end":156.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.39471875,"end":169.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.87784375,"end":188.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.00971875000002,"end":191.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.03909375,"end":191.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.24159375000002,"end":191.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.27534375000002,"end":191.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.51159375,"end":191.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.76471875000001,"end":192.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.23284375,"end":193.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.14409375000002,"end":198.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.46409375000002,"end":240.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.81784375,"end":203.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.79971875,"end":210.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.95159375,"end":211.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.47284375,"end":223.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.78784375,"end":233.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.92159375000003,"end":251.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.24909375000001,"end":252.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.86909375000002,"end":254.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.78846875000002,"end":262.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.42034375000003,"end":267.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.44909375000003,"end":272.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.34721875,"end":276.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.30846875000003,"end":279.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.16471875,"end":279.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.54846875000004,"end":279.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.63284375,"end":279.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.76784375,"end":280.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.97034375000004,"end":282.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.21471875000003,"end":283.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.00784375,"end":283.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.10909375,"end":283.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.39596875,"end":285.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.31971875,"end":292.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.90096875,"end":298.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.03159375,"end":293.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.60034375000004,"end":307.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.42596875000004,"end":310.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.42534375,"end":325.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.85346875000005,"end":326.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.47784375000003,"end":336.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.94034375,"end":341.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.15909375,"end":357.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.52346875,"end":362.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.38784375,"end":362.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.60284375000003,"end":374.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.62221875,"end":385.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.06784375,"end":389.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.04596875000004,"end":390.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.53534375000004,"end":391.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.18909375000004,"end":393.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.23096875000005,"end":395.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.10409375,"end":403.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.83284375000005,"end":407.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.62971875000005,"end":416.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.18971875000005,"end":415.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.35846875000004,"end":415.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.47659375,"end":415.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.01221875000005,"end":438.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.01096875,"end":425.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.19034375,"end":441.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.61596875000004,"end":448.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.02409375,"end":489.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.38471875000005,"end":497.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.53971875,"end":509.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.50409375000004,"end":516.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.4228437500001,"end":523.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.00409375,"end":524.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.4428437500001,"end":524.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.23596875,"end":526.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.04159375,"end":526.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.8178437500001,"end":530.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.6653437500001,"end":535.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.20471875,"end":539.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.60096875,"end":538.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.86221875,"end":540.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.0984687499999,"end":540.5034687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.141,"end":13.291,"text":"謝謝主席我想請我們陳代理主委請陳代理主委"},{"start":22.415,"end":38.481,"text":"你看一下這是2013年到2023年台灣數位廣告跟電視廣告整體市場金額的比較你看到從過去以來就是說電視廣告比較高到數位廣告比較低到2023年數位廣告已經超過了電視廣告那這個數字"},{"start":46.585,"end":60.667,"text":"給主委了解 我相信你也非常清楚喔那對於數位平台上面有商家指定平台支付或者是物流的服務那這些部分"},{"start":61.408,"end":81.117,"text":"因為平台業者他有拒絕提供用戶數據給晉升者或第三方或者是利用演算法的或者是未揭露的順序排序這樣子的規則對於特定的商家降權或限制流量"},{"start":84.078,"end":104.327,"text":"這請問例如像是新興的就是跟演算法有規定或者是數位平台上面他們有特定次序的這個部分的時候那請問公平會你要怎麼樣子介入以及監管我想委員提到的這些數位平台上面濫用數據演算法來排除競爭這個在"},{"start":106.55,"end":129.016,"text":"我們的公平法架構底下我們事實上都是可以去監管的只是說在監管的時候我們有一些前提要這樣符合譬如說數位平台要有市場力量另外一個更重要的是說它本身是不是真的有這樣的行為如果它真的有自我偏好的行為而且這個自我偏好的行為是那對於演算法那個演算法也是一樣現在陪同你上來備詢的這位是服務競爭處的處長服務競爭處的處長對他是負責數位平台"},{"start":134.798,"end":153.141,"text":"那它對於數位平台的演算法它是不是比較清楚我先簡單跟委員報告數位平台演算法主要在國際間關切的問題就是利用演算法來達成聯合定價業者同樣都用一套演算法所以我也知道你的價格你也知道我價格你調價我也調價所以是主要關切那這個我們持續都有在關注啦對處長要不要"},{"start":154.721,"end":180.127,"text":"有沒有相關的補充因為對於演算法這個部分其實一般的就是說購買的業者或者是消費者他並不了解說演算法的這樣子的推波的這個他的次序或者是規則是如何的但是如果在於就是平台他怎麼樣子推波給這些消費者的"},{"start":180.447,"end":192.333,"text":"那會不會導致於引導消費者的偏好等等的那這樣子怎麼樣子我們公平會怎麼樣子介入委員是不是請處長跟委員稍微做一下報告"},{"start":194.192,"end":223.064,"text":"委員目前的演算法做一些推波主要是在目前看起來是比較是為了要增加消費者比較良好的一個體驗譬如說我們有時候有搜尋引擎譬如說我搜尋了運動用品列曾經有搜尋過那他可能會感受到說我對於運動用品比較有興趣那就推出一些相關的廣告那以前過往的媒體的廣告呢是一種平面媒體或是一般的廣告他是不知道特定的人"},{"start":223.664,"end":251.63,"text":"所以它是一個比較沒有辦法針對性那它現在這可以做分眾這是一種比較數位時代進步上的一個進步那至於說目前說有沒有競爭法的問題的話我們是有在關注但目前在利害分析上我們認為說這部分可能是比較有益於消費者的部分但如果有限制競爭的問題的話當然我們也會注意以上那你們怎麼監管"},{"start":253.114,"end":253.985,"text":"我的問題是你們怎麼監管"},{"start":255.831,"end":280.929,"text":"我們當然除了自己主動會去了解譬如說這典型例子就是說業界或是市場上有傳出或者說國外之間有一些具體的案例我們就會去注意說國內是不是本身有這樣的問題那請問你們要跟什麼機關一同會同去如果涉及到比較數位技術的部分當然就跟產業主管機關我們會有密切的合作那是什麼數位部還是經濟部都可能數發部數發部經濟部都有經濟部對我是說這樣涉及到會不會是跨部會的"},{"start":285.812,"end":310.53,"text":"很多案子我们必须要尤其是在技术面的部分我们其实很需要速发部的一些专业上的见解就是在技术上面你们需要的是速发部但是在整个产业方面是不是应该要汇同经济部有时候产业上的一些数据一些事业的分布状况我们也是需要有一些主管机关来提供一些相关的数据做我们判断的基础好那现在就是根据"},{"start":312.151,"end":340.32,"text":"我們媒體報導的台積電他可能就是要入股了英特爾的這樣子的情況那還結合了輝達、超微還有博通等那未來他們如果入股了而且經營英特爾的這個晶片製造的合資企業我想根據我們之前台灣金聯的董事長施俊傑他說"},{"start":341.32,"end":360.817,"text":"他說無論是合作方式是投資入股或者是技術入股或者是由英特爾承接台積電在美國的先進封裝訂單都符合公平交易法的事業結合"},{"start":364.026,"end":390.725,"text":"這也會超過台積電與英特爾的年度銷售額接超過了公平會所規定的400億新台幣的門檻那代表了他們就必須要跟公平會申報那未來這一起在美國的這個結合案那你"},{"start":392.37,"end":402.912,"text":"還有我們的公平會會不會能夠勇敢的進行審查並且獨立的做出相關的判決"},{"start":404.432,"end":424.15,"text":"這個案子我們持續都密切在觀察發展那跟委員報告一下就是說我們審查的前提是他們合作的模式屬於我們結合的定義在公民法裡面第四條它有定義什麼叫結合那假設符合了那門檻也達到了不管是營業額很高我想這個營業額都很高所以符合當然就屬於我們可以審查他們就必須要來申報審查"},{"start":425.351,"end":448.359,"text":"那審查的過程當中我們就會依照他們合作的模式到底是競爭者還是上下有業者的模式我們會依照公平法既有的審查的一些架構來進行實體的審查那因為我們是獨立機關我們絕對是獨立依法對那對於相關的資料那我們有沒有管到跟美國就是說能夠有相關的資料的這樣子的"},{"start":450.059,"end":476.306,"text":"像上一次我們在台灣審查Uber Eats的時候你們就因為資料的拖延其實就已經就是說在收集的方面都沒有辦法及時的就是按照時程內跟委員會報告以及給所有的大眾了解但現在如果這一起案件那的資料相關都在美國"},{"start":476.886,"end":489.122,"text":"那我們有沒有辦法能夠及時的取得及時的做出相關合理的這樣子的判決以及給予所有民眾一個公開的資訊呢"},{"start":490.764,"end":508.879,"text":"資料取得特別是涉及到跨國公司這個當然一直都是一個問題不過依法我們是可以要求提供資料的所以我們也會積極的要求業者必須要盡快配合我們的市場來提供相關的資料那同樣的邏輯跟規定我們也會適用在台積電的身上我們也會盡量的"},{"start":509.58,"end":538.578,"text":"要求他來符合我們審查的事項所以他必須要跟你申報是吧對 只要是審查我們要求他補件原則上他們都要配合所以他要跟你申報而且他要就是說要提供相關的這個資料給你是不是那你也會獨立的做出判決是不是那希望你們可以在就是說法定的期間內獨立的做出判決給予民眾了解好嗎所以我們依法來審查這個案子如果這案子進來的話"},{"start":539.319,"end":539.584,"text":"好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":562,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（10時54分）謝謝主席，我想要請陳代理主委。"],["主席：請陳代理主委。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：謝委員早。"],["謝委員衣鳯：主委，你看一下，這是2013年到2023年臺灣數位廣告跟電視廣告整體市場金額的比較，我們可以看到，從過去以來，原本是電視廣告比較高，數位廣告比較低，到2023年時，數位廣告已經超過了電視廣告，這個數字提供給主委了解，我相信你也非常清楚。對於數位平臺上面有商家指定平臺支付或者是物流的服務，這些部分因為平臺業者他有拒絕提供用戶數據給競爭者或第三方，或者是利用演算法的，或者是未揭露的順序排序，這樣子的規則，對於特定的商家降權或限制流量，請問，例如像是新興的，就是演算法有規定，或者是數位平臺上面他們有特定次序這個部分的時候，請問公平會，你要怎麼樣去介入以及監管？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我想委員提到的這些數位平臺上面濫用數據、演算法來排除競爭，這個在我們的公平法架構底下，我們事實上都是可以去監管的，只是說在監管的時候我們有一些前提要件要符合，譬如說數位平臺要有市場力量，另外一個更重要的是說，它本身是不是真的有這樣的行為，如果它真的有自我偏好的行為，而且這個自我偏好的行為是會排擠到像你所講的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對於演算法……"],["陳代理主任委員志民：演算法也是一樣。"],["謝委員衣鳯：現在陪同你上來備詢的這位是？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：服務競爭處的處長。"],["謝委員衣鳯：服務競爭處的處長？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，他是負責數位平臺。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那他對於數位平臺的演算法是不是比較清楚？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我先簡單跟委員報告，數位平臺演算法主要在國際間關切的問題，就是利用演算法來達成聯合定價，業者同樣都用一套演算法，所以我知道你的價格，你也知道我的價格，你調價我也調價，所以這是主要關切的部分，這個部分我們持續都有在關注，處長要不要做補充？"],["謝委員衣鳯：有沒有相關的補充？因為對於演算法這個部分，其實一般購買的業者或者是消費者，他並不了解演算法這樣的推播次序或者規則是如何的，就是平臺它怎麼樣推播給這些消費者的，會不會導致於引導消費者的偏好等等，針對這個部分，公平會樣怎麼樣子去介入？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：委員，我是不是請處長跟委員稍微做一下報告？"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。"],["陳代理處長俊廷：委員，透過演算法去做一些推播，在目前看起來是為了要增加消費者比較良好的體驗，譬如說我透過搜尋引擎搜尋了運動用品店，曾經有搜尋過，它可能會感受到我對於運動用品比較有興趣，那它就推出一些相關的廣告。以前、過往的媒體廣告是一種平面媒體或者是一般的廣告，它是不知道特定的人，所以它比較沒有辦法有針對性，但現在這個可以做分眾，這是一種比較屬於數位時代的一個進步。至於說目前有沒有競爭法的問題，我們是有在關注，但目前在利害分析上，我們認為這部分可能是比較有益於消費者的部分，當然如果有限制競爭問題的話，當然我們也會加以注意，以上。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那你們怎麼監管？我的問題是你們怎麼監管？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們除了自己主動會去了解，譬如說最典型的例子就是，業界或是市場上有傳出，或者說國外之間有一些具體的案例，我們就會去注意國內是不是本身也有這樣的問題。"],["謝委員衣鳯：請問你們要跟什麼機關一同會同去處理？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：如果涉及到比較數位技術的部分，當然就跟產業主管機關，我們會有密切的合作。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那是什麼？數位部還是經濟部？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：都有可能，數發部、經濟部都有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，我是說這樣的問題所涉及到的會不會是跨部會的？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：很多案子，尤其在技術面的部分，我們其實很需要數發部一些專業上的見解。"],["謝委員衣鳯：就是在技術上面，你們需要的是數發部？但是在整個產業方面，是不是應該要會同經濟部？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：有時候產業上的一些數據，一些事業的分布狀況，我們也是需要有一些主管機關來提供一些相關的數據，做為我們判斷的基準。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，現在根據媒體的報導，台積電可能就是要入股英特爾，還結合了輝達、超微，還有博通等，未來他們如果入股了，而且經營英特爾的晶片製造的合資企業，我想根據之前臺灣金聯的董事長施俊吉的說法，他說無論合作方式是投資入股，或者是技術入股，或者由英特爾承接台積電在美國的先進封裝訂單，都符合公平交易法的事業結合，這也會使台積電與英特爾的年度銷售額已經超過公平會所規定的400億新臺幣的門檻，代表了他們就必須要跟公平會申報，未來這一起在美國的結合案，你還有我們公平會會不會勇敢的進行審查，並且獨立的作出相關的判決？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：這個案子我們持續密切觀察它的發展，跟委員報告，我們審查的前提是他們合作的模式屬於我們結合的定義，在公平法第十條有定義什麼叫結合，假設符合了，門檻也達到了，不管是營業額很高，我想這營業額都很高，符合了就當然屬於我們可以審查，他們就必須來申報審查，審查的過程當中，我們就會依照他們合作的模式，到底是競爭者還是上下游業者的模式，我們會依照公平法既有的審查架構來進行實體的審查，因為我們是獨立機關，我們絕對獨立依法審查。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對於相關的資料，我們有沒有管道跟美國取得？像上一次我們在臺灣審查Uber Eats的時候，你們就因為資料的拖延，其實就已經在蒐集的方面都沒有辦法及時按照時程跟委員報告以及給所有的大眾了解。現在如果這起案件的相關資料都在美國，我們有沒有辦法能夠及時取得、及時作出相關合理的判決，以及給予所有民眾一個公開的資訊呢？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：資料取得特別是涉及跨國公司，當然一直都是個問題，不過依法我們是可以要求提供資料，所以我們也會積極要求業者必須儘快配合我們的時程來提供相關的資料。同樣的邏輯和規定，我們也會適用在台積電的審查，我們也會儘量的要求它來符合我們審查的時程。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以它必須跟你申報？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：對，只要是審查，我們要求它補件，原則上他們都要配合。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以它要跟你申報，而且它要提供相關的資料給你，是不是？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你也會獨立的作出判決，是不是？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：希望你們可以在法定的期間內獨立的作出判決，給予民眾了解，好嗎？"],["陳代理主任委員志民：我們會依法來審查這個案子，如果這個案子進來的話。"],["謝委員衣鳯：謝謝。"],["陳代理主任委員志民：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時3分）","繼續開會（11時13分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","下一位請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":168,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-2","speakers":["蔡易餘","邱議瑩","林岱樺","陳亭妃","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","邱志偉","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳超明","賴瑞隆","翁曉玲","陳培瑜"],"page_start":121,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請公平交易委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00003"}}},{"id":"159103","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159103","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fb7a6eea21e44788ae83d902c8d6dd6c2ff1cdb1affc83ff4d197f29790cd35605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"10:50:31 - 11:03:36","影片長度":"00:13:05","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T10:50:31+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:03:36+08:00","duration":785,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.68846875,"end":10.493468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.876593750000001,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.06221875,"end":16.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.05784375,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.10846875,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.027843750000002,"end":20.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.12909375,"end":20.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.33159375,"end":20.399093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.399093750000002,"end":20.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.41596875,"end":20.449718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.10784375,"end":21.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.934718750000002,"end":32.127218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.06471875,"end":27.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.83596875,"end":37.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.510343750000004,"end":39.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.923468750000005,"end":47.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.91346875,"end":49.930343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.930343750000006,"end":52.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.423468750000005,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.19909375,"end":58.604093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.604093750000004,"end":61.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.962218750000005,"end":64.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.32034375,"end":67.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.02034375000001,"end":74.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.15471875,"end":72.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.95596875000001,"end":82.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.56659375000001,"end":102.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.66784375,"end":83.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.02346875,"end":107.84534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.79909375000001,"end":107.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.84534375000001,"end":108.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.19971875,"end":130.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.43534375,"end":113.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.78846875,"end":120.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.80534375,"end":121.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.21034375,"end":121.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.20159375,"end":123.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.97784375,"end":123.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.47534375000001,"end":126.81284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.37346875,"end":131.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.87534375,"end":131.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.90909375,"end":132.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.04409375,"end":133.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.19596875000002,"end":132.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.10721875000002,"end":133.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.32659375,"end":138.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.17034375,"end":134.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.49471875,"end":139.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.57034375,"end":143.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.49409375000002,"end":143.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.75534375,"end":148.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.63221875000002,"end":148.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.96971875,"end":152.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.18846875,"end":156.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.55909375000002,"end":161.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.60471875000002,"end":167.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.26659375,"end":172.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.37534375,"end":177.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.35784375,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.16284375,"end":184.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.50409375,"end":187.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.12409375000001,"end":187.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.14096875,"end":187.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.15784375,"end":191.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.89159375,"end":191.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.49471875,"end":191.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.52846875,"end":191.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.57909375,"end":191.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.62971875000002,"end":191.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.64659375000002,"end":191.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.89971875,"end":191.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.95034375,"end":191.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.96721875,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.03471875000002,"end":192.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.96284375000002,"end":204.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.24534375000002,"end":195.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.55596875,"end":204.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.77534375000002,"end":212.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.57221875000002,"end":209.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.75721875000002,"end":223.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.29159375,"end":222.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.78096875000003,"end":225.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.10971875,"end":225.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.12659375,"end":225.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.14346875,"end":225.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.34596875000003,"end":230.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.49284375000002,"end":230.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.50971875000002,"end":231.23534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.23534375000003,"end":231.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.77534375000002,"end":238.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.00221875000003,"end":238.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.40721875000003,"end":238.42409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.42409375000003,"end":239.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.40284375000002,"end":239.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.60534375,"end":242.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.25034375,"end":250.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.60784375000003,"end":250.62471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.17721875,"end":264.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.56346875,"end":270.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.08159375,"end":271.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.39784375,"end":273.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.47784375000003,"end":274.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.83596875,"end":276.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.44346875,"end":279.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.22346875,"end":280.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.67471875,"end":282.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.85596875000005,"end":284.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.88096875,"end":285.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.21409375,"end":287.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.34034375000005,"end":311.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.26909375,"end":313.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.82159375000003,"end":315.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.41221875,"end":320.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.99346875000003,"end":322.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.83721875000003,"end":324.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.79034375000003,"end":325.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.80284375,"end":326.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.05596875000003,"end":327.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.20784375,"end":326.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.35971875,"end":327.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.42284375,"end":347.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.46909375,"end":334.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.37721875,"end":350.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.47409375,"end":351.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.84096875,"end":359.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.36721875,"end":371.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.42971875,"end":365.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.38721875000005,"end":368.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.64346875,"end":379.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.96784375000004,"end":378.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.34284375000004,"end":383.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.97096875,"end":385.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.19846875,"end":388.64534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.13471875000005,"end":389.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.07971875000004,"end":392.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.50971875000005,"end":398.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.66471875,"end":408.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.00534375,"end":407.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.23721875,"end":414.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.43034375,"end":416.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.36659375000005,"end":418.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.39159375,"end":421.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.23096875000005,"end":425.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.07409375000003,"end":439.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.13096875,"end":450.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.28971875,"end":451.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.29784375,"end":455.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.99346875000003,"end":457.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.69784375,"end":472.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.43034375,"end":468.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.36221875,"end":484.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.21284375000005,"end":487.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.35159375,"end":497.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.96721875000003,"end":489.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.42659375000005,"end":492.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.56159375000004,"end":492.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.69659375000003,"end":492.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.48909375000005,"end":499.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.88534375,"end":501.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.99471875000006,"end":514.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.3090937500001,"end":536.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.2934687500001,"end":535.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.45346875,"end":538.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.71471875,"end":538.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.7822187500001,"end":546.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.84971875,"end":538.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.03534375,"end":540.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.59534375,"end":549.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.68346875,"end":551.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.23159375,"end":553.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.9440937500001,"end":558.8803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.67346875,"end":560.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.78721875,"end":562.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.2890937500001,"end":571.4522187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.06096875,"end":565.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.0772187499999,"end":571.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.4522187499999,"end":574.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.7390937499999,"end":576.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.28284375,"end":575.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.44721875,"end":581.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":582.2690937500001,"end":584.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.5303437499999,"end":587.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.4540937500001,"end":590.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.4028437500001,"end":590.5378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.1284687500001,"end":592.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.11971875,"end":593.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.16596875,"end":595.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.9084687500001,"end":595.6003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.4990937499999,"end":599.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":599.88659375,"end":602.5022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.5278437500001,"end":601.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.2365937500001,"end":603.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.00846875,"end":603.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.02534375,"end":603.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.3290937500001,"end":607.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.4640937500001,"end":605.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.9865937500001,"end":608.1553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.1553437499999,"end":608.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.22284375,"end":613.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.38659375,"end":615.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.1709687499999,"end":617.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.06534375,"end":619.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":618.02721875,"end":618.3815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":618.48284375,"end":620.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.5078437500001,"end":622.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.5247187500001,"end":620.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.96721875,"end":624.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.3003437500001,"end":625.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.9753437500001,"end":627.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.9115937500001,"end":630.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":630.1772187500001,"end":633.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.11784375,"end":639.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":638.2434687500001,"end":641.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.71159375,"end":646.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.6428437500001,"end":648.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.00971875,"end":649.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.0222187500001,"end":653.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.5490937500001,"end":654.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.32534375,"end":654.4265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":654.4265937499999,"end":654.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.8315937500001,"end":656.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.56971875,"end":660.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.64909375,"end":662.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":662.03721875,"end":662.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":663.2690937500001,"end":663.5559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.5559687500001,"end":663.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.06221875,"end":664.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.0790937500001,"end":664.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.14659375,"end":669.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.87221875,"end":665.7834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.11659375,"end":667.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.5803437500001,"end":676.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":676.98846875,"end":691.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.5828437499999,"end":681.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.04534375,"end":695.7365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":696.5972187500001,"end":699.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.4409687500001,"end":704.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.11909375,"end":706.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.48159375,"end":713.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.3247187500001,"end":715.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.07971875,"end":723.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":723.66471875,"end":733.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.75596875,"end":745.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":734.04284375,"end":734.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":736.43909375,"end":737.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":739.52721875,"end":739.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":740.7422187500001,"end":741.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":741.06284375,"end":741.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":743.5265937500001,"end":743.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":745.19721875,"end":747.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.3784687500001,"end":746.7665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.12096875,"end":753.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":747.7453437500001,"end":748.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.5165937500001,"end":754.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.7609687500001,"end":756.2334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.1784687500001,"end":759.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":759.4228437500001,"end":760.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.33409375,"end":771.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":760.38471875,"end":760.4522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":762.49409375,"end":762.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":763.6753437500001,"end":764.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":766.4934687500001,"end":768.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":769.2778437500001,"end":769.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":770.30721875,"end":772.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":772.7709687500001,"end":773.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.25596875,"end":777.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":777.7153437500001,"end":782.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":778.66034375,"end":778.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":778.76159375,"end":778.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":778.93034375,"end":780.3815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.6303437500001,"end":784.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":783.57096875,"end":784.4990937500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.087,"end":31.857,"text":"主席 二位委員出列習慣了 主席請楊總裁我想現在全國的所有一些做貿易一些企業界大家都很關心就是新台幣兌美元匯率的走向那我想請教一下"},{"start":32.984,"end":47.325,"text":"現在美國總統川普上任了以後那台幣未來的走向究竟是要穩定的曲扁還是要穩定的要升值"},{"start":50.49,"end":73.752,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上我都一直在講就是說匯率還是由市場來決定的中央銀行在外匯市場他沒辦法就是說因為他供需所以他要貶的時候中央銀行不能就說強迫他要升中央銀行所能夠做的"},{"start":75.014,"end":90.64,"text":"他要升的時候你也要升只是中央銀行能夠做的就是說讓他的波動度呢不要太大就是這樣子而已所以才會就是說中央銀行主扁喔對有可能就是說我們主扁為什麼我們要讓他的波動度減緩我們是主升喔也可能我們主升為什麼我們要讓這個新台幣的升幅呢要能夠他的波動度不要太大就是這樣子而已"},{"start":103.345,"end":129.439,"text":"那既然從你剛剛所說的供需的需求來看的話美國總統川普他是美國優先嘛是不是那我們也可以看到台積電他現在準備要投資多少一千億的美元在美國是不是增加啦增加嘛那表示說他有一千億會匯到美國去所以他需要美元的需求就會比較強"},{"start":130.407,"end":156.12,"text":"那也不一定不然他要投資美國他就說四年嘛這個是四年他就說四年所以四年每年要投多少深造大概也是八九千億一千億如果說除以四就要一年兩百五十億那兩百五十億我跟委員報告事實上呢台積電他在賺美金他非常會賺"},{"start":157.728,"end":184.816,"text":"所以呢也就是說他事實上他不必要在外匯市場去買美金他自己賺的美金他就足夠他到那邊去總裁你的意思是說他以後台積電全世界賺的錢如果賺美金的部分他就不會回台灣不因為我跟委員報告請問他在美國的投資的資本支出他的金流是怎麼樣他的金流就是他的美金賺得啊"},{"start":185.543,"end":190.867,"text":"他賺的直接就投美國所以你這樣講就是錢不會進來台灣啊?錢不會進來台灣啊?不過我跟那個250億就台積電來講250億不算什麼"},{"start":204.912,"end":226.625,"text":"可是對台灣的一些企業講,不要說是美金啦你光是台幣一億兩億,對中小企業影響都很大對,但是台積電它是比較特殊啦因為台積電,台積電它所賺的美金,我比那個比那些的那個什麼,一些的那個那台積電每一年賺多少美金?據我了解呢,我據我了解"},{"start":230.543,"end":250.411,"text":"好,請說台積電在2024年,去年是900億美金左右今年預估會到1000億美金以上是,所以那我請教你他現在台積電,等一下局長你等一下因為你這個途徑可能比較知道他賺了錢,他錢不用匯回台灣嗎?就在當地直接投資掉是不是?"},{"start":252.716,"end":278.663,"text":"根據我們了解啦那他上次的投資他有在美國發債有部分的資金會從會在美國的子公司會發美元的債券那另外一個部分就是每年的營收的成長那當然每年的營收就是剛剛跟委員報告的一年像去年是900億今年預估會到1000億900億是台幣還是美金美金美金美金啦好謝謝總裁那這個數字你就可以知道他是相當龐大的齁台積電"},{"start":281.701,"end":286.974,"text":"跑掉了以後對台灣經濟的影響有多大"},{"start":289.013,"end":305.277,"text":"台積電對第一個我是覺得啦如果說就一個台積電不過講到這裡的時候我才跟委員報告基本上我們的主管機關也一直在強調基本上80%的業務還是集中在台灣"},{"start":312.318,"end":333.798,"text":"那個是比較低階的啊沒有沒有因為台積電慢慢的高階的通通會移到美國去啊你不信的話你聽那個美國總統川普講的話他是老實的啊甚至還講到地緣關係發生變化的時候我不是說沒有你怕啦"},{"start":334.418,"end":347.434,"text":"但是呢 我覺得就是說我們的主管機關一直在強調台積電的A5的重心還是在台灣這是第一個第二個呢 我們它的一個主要的研發中心還是在台灣"},{"start":350.641,"end":362.726,"text":"總裁請問他所有的技術跟人才過去美國以後以後美國的員工大概有多少人他要成立一個研發中心在那邊為什麼美國總統川普他會說這些都是被偷走的"},{"start":374.578,"end":377.76,"text":"不是 他只是說我個人覺得啦川普總統他這麼說呢是他的一個話術"},{"start":386.363,"end":413.474,"text":"它是一個話術它是一個策略那基本上我都總覺得事實上我們台灣的這個半導體我們的直通訊這個是美國它最需要的所以美國在這一方面所以它就半導體這個部分它就盯著台灣因為我們在這個強項從以上的數據其實只是冰山的一角你有沒有算過"},{"start":415.455,"end":438.876,"text":"台積電過去以後它周邊的相關的周邊的這些上下游大概有幾家會過去?不過我總覺得就是說當你在做國際化的時候你的選擇當然我在這方面我不是專家我只是說我個人的直覺"},{"start":441.358,"end":454.947,"text":"因為從國際貿易的一個觀點來看的話他那邊去接近市場接近他的客戶我總覺得這個也是很好第二個你要想想看事實上我們台灣第一個我們的土地"},{"start":456.018,"end":479.281,"text":"也不夠啊美國他的苦地大所以就是說他的資源台積電到美國去投資的時候他也可以利用到美國的資源當然美國的資源有些地方是成本會比較高總裁剛本席請教的是說台積電過去了以後周邊的上下游的企業"},{"start":480.482,"end":501.483,"text":"還有一些資本都已經過去慢慢過去這個也不一定請問這個也不一定為什麼呢已經就有一定的因為過去有一些做無成事的通通過去了還有上下游周邊的很多都會過去有沒有算過這些如果說一起過去的話它對台灣的影響會有多大"},{"start":503.044,"end":518.881,"text":"我想企業是很會算的啦而且我總覺得他們是很靈活的據我了解呢現在就是說要到美國去的那些呢大部分都是在墨西哥啦墨西哥呢他就說在美國他也有產生墨西哥他是比較龐大"},{"start":519.642,"end":531.146,"text":"那現在就是說因為他要對墨西哥扣稅所以他也就是說我們台商在墨西哥那邊他就想就是說那如果說在這樣情況之下在關稅的情況之下他可能把他的一個作業線要挪到美國去所以你的意思是說都沒關係就對了不是這樣子"},{"start":542.51,"end":553.783,"text":"企業它的一個國際化我總覺得這一條路還是要走的我們一看到台積電一去美國的時候就發現 你有沒有發現一個事情台積電股票漲還跌一千兩百多塊馬上跌破一千塊"},{"start":559.773,"end":574.125,"text":"市場告訴了總裁什麼總裁告訴你什麼大家的害怕完全就展現出來了這還有一個影響請問台積電是台灣的護國神山你知道它的市值有多少"},{"start":582.575,"end":584.739,"text":"他的柿子我現在有三條所以他沒長一點"},{"start":591.435,"end":614.791,"text":"對台股的影響有多大?他是八點嘛所以你看台灣現在股市已經連番下跌這幾天跌很多不過我們的股我跟委員報告我們的兩萬多到目前為止兩萬多還好啦那總裁台積電跑掉了以後你覺得台股兩萬點是不是常態?"},{"start":616.512,"end":626.479,"text":"這個我不敢預測因為我不是股市專家台積電跑掉了以後台股有沒有機會上看三萬點"},{"start":629.276,"end":648.078,"text":"這個我不曉得,我不是股市的專家這只是一個代表對他的經濟未來的期待跟一個感覺就好像黃金國際的首飾一樣本席在七年前"},{"start":650.066,"end":667.26,"text":"六年前 五年前 三年前 還有去年多次建議央行總裁要不要考慮買進黃金總裁的回答是我建議的時候是每盎司1270塊的時候現在黃金每盎司多少錢"},{"start":677.268,"end":698.538,"text":"我剛 我在去年的那個總裁三千塊我也有跟委員報告啦我也佩服委員啦但是呢 我也說但是中央銀行的考量是又跟一般的不大一樣這個不考量那個虛擬貨幣你現在態度支不支持虛擬貨幣比特幣 川普總統所講的五大虛擬貨幣他要作為什麼 戰略儲備"},{"start":705.271,"end":734.611,"text":"現在你是不是也要跟進到目前為止我們是不會啦不過我們會密切關注啦你現在支不支持台灣做虛擬貨幣因為那個什麼叫戰略儲備的這個名詞這個東西虛擬的比特幣還有其他的虛擬貨幣是不是能夠當作戰略儲備這個我到目前為止我還是稍微有一點Question"},{"start":735.231,"end":755.978,"text":"希望你多考量啊但是你不要違背川普啊你不要忤逆川普啊全世界的潮流在改變的時候我們還要顧不知風嗎我建議你虛擬貨幣比特幣的時候是一枚六千塊美金現在多少了多少"},{"start":757.256,"end":773.221,"text":"之前漲到10萬塊美金一枚我只是提醒央行世界在變的時候我們一定要顧不知風嗎世界在改變的時候我們沒有一點檢討或思考的空間嗎謝謝委員新台幣的數字貨幣什麼時候要推出我們還在往前我們這個會期還在等待謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":733,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（10時50分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，請楊總裁。"],["主席：楊總裁請。"],["楊總裁金龍：羅委員早。"],["羅委員明才：楊總裁，早安。我想現在全國所有做貿易的企業界大家都很關心新臺幣兌美元匯率的走向，我想請教一下，現在美國總統川普上任了以後，臺幣未來的走向究竟是要穩定的趨貶還是要穩定的升值？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，事實上我一直在講的就是匯率還是由市場來決定，中央銀行在外匯市場沒辦法……就是說，因為這牽涉到供需嘛，所以它要貶的時候，中央銀行也不能強迫它要升，中央銀行所能夠做的，它要升的時候也……只是讓它的波動度不要太大，就這樣子而已。"],["羅委員明才：是，既然……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以也才會有人說中央銀行阻貶，對，我們有可能阻貶，為什麼？我們要讓他的波動度減緩。但也可能我們會阻升，為什麼？我們要讓新臺幣升幅的波動度不要太大，就是這樣子而已。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。從你剛剛所說供需的需求來看，美國總統川普是美國優先，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒錯。"],["羅委員明才：我們也可以看到現在台積電準備要投資多少？一千億美元在美國，是不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：增加。"],["羅委員明才：表示有一千億會匯到美國去，所以美元的需求就會比較強？"],["楊總裁金龍：那也不一定。"],["羅委員明才：不然他投資美國要用什麼投？"],["楊總裁金龍：他是說四年，要用四年……"],["羅委員明才：四年的話每一年要投多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：那是由他來申請……"],["羅委員明才：三兆臺幣，每年大概是八、九千億……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，一千億美元除以四，一年就要兩百五十億。我跟委員報告，事實上台積電非常會賺美金，所以他不需要到外匯市場去買美金，他自己賺的美金就足夠讓他到那邊去……"],["羅委員明才：總裁，你的意思是以後台積電在全世界賺的錢，譬如賺的美金就不匯回臺灣了嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告……"],["羅委員明才：請問他在美國投資的資本支出與金流是怎麼樣？"],["楊總裁金龍：金流就是他賺的美金。"],["羅委員明才：他賺的直接就投美國？"],["楊總裁金龍：對，他賺的就投美國……"],["羅委員明才：照你講的，錢不會進來臺灣？"],["楊總裁金龍：不、不，就台積電來講，每年兩百五十億不算什麼！"],["羅委員明才：可是對臺灣的一些企業來講，不要說美金，光臺幣一億、兩億對中小企業影響都很大！"],["楊總裁金龍：對、對，但台積電就是比較特殊！因為台積電一家所賺的美金比那些……"],["羅委員明才：總裁，台積電每年賺多少美金？"],["楊總裁金龍：據我了解……好，請外匯局長說明。"],["羅委員明才：請說。"],["蔡局長烱民：台積電在去年（2024年）是賺九百億左右，今年預估會到一千億以上的營收。"],["羅委員明才：局長，等一下，我想你可能比較知道途徑。台積電賺的錢不用匯回臺灣嗎？就在直接在當地投資掉，是不是？"],["蔡局長烱民：根據我們了解，上次的投資台積電有在美國發債，即有部分的資金由在美國的子公司發美元債券，另外一部分就是每年的營收成長。當然，每年的營收就是剛剛跟委員報告的，像去年是九百億，今年預估會到一千……"],["羅委員明才：九百億是臺幣還是美金？"],["蔡局長烱民：美金。"],["羅委員明才：謝謝。總裁，從數字就可以知道是相當龐大的，台積電跑掉了以後，對臺灣經濟的影響會有多大？"],["楊總裁金龍：台積電對……我覺得就台積電……講到這裡，我要跟委員報告，我們的主管機關經濟部也一直在強調，基本上80%的業務還是集中在臺灣……"],["羅委員明才：那是比較低階的。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有、沒有，因為台積電……"],["羅委員明才：高階的會慢慢的、通通移到美國去，不信的話你去聽美國總統川普講的話，他老神在在！"],["楊總裁金龍：我對產業……"],["羅委員明才：甚至還講到地緣關係發生變化時……"],["楊總裁金龍：我不是說我很瞭解……"],["羅委員明才：他根本沒有在怕的！"],["楊總裁金龍：但是我們的主管機關一直在強調，台積電的業務重心還是在臺灣，這是第一個。第二個，其主要研發中心還是在臺灣，還是在臺灣。"],["羅委員明才：總裁我請問你，所有的技術跟人才過去美國，以後美國的員工大概有多少人？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我不曉得。"],["羅委員明才：他要在那邊成立一個研發中心……"],["楊總裁金龍：不，據我了解，他的研發中心是對產業線……"],["羅委員明才：為什麼美國總統川普會說這些都是被偷走的？"],["楊總裁金龍：不是，他只是說……"],["羅委員明才：是臺灣偷走的？"],["楊總裁金龍：我個人覺得川普總統這麼說是他的話術，是一個策略，事實上臺灣的半導體、我們的資通訊是美國最需要的，所以美國就半導體這部分盯著臺灣，因為這方面是我們的強項！"],["羅委員明才：以上的數據其實只是冰山一角！你有沒有算過台積電過去以後，周邊相關上下游大概有幾家會過去？"],["楊總裁金龍：我總覺得當你在做國際化的時候，你的選擇……當然，這方面我不是專家，我只是說我個人的直覺。因為從國際貿易的觀點來看，他去那邊接近市場、接近他的客戶，我總覺得這個很好。第二個，你要想想看，臺灣的土地不夠，而美國土地大……"],["羅委員明才：總裁……"],["楊總裁金龍：所以台積電到美國投資的時候，可以利用到美國的資源。當然，美國的資源有些地方成本會比較高。"],["羅委員明才：總裁，剛剛本席請教的是，台積電過去以後，周邊的上下游企業及一些資本都已經慢慢過去……"],["楊總裁金龍：這個也不一定，為什麼？因為……"],["羅委員明才：就已經有一定的，因為一些做無塵室的通通過去了，還有上下游周邊的很多都會過去。這些如果一起過去的話，有沒有算過對臺灣的影響會有多大？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想企業是很會算的，我總覺得他們是很靈活的。據我了解，現在說要到美國去的那些，大部分都是在墨西哥，他們在美國也有產線，只是墨西哥比較龐大。現在因為美國要對墨西哥扣稅，所以我們在墨西哥的臺商就想說，在這樣情況之下，尤其在關稅的情況之下，就可能把作業線挪到美國去。"],["羅委員明才：總裁，你的意思是沒關係就對了？"],["楊總裁金龍：也不是這樣子！"],["羅委員明才：也不是？"],["楊總裁金龍：不過企業國際化這條路還是要走的。"],["羅委員明才：我們看到台積電一去美國就發現……你有沒有發現一件事？台積電股票漲還是跌？從一千兩百多塊馬上跌破1,000元，市場告訴了總裁什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦……"],["羅委員明才：總裁，告訴你什麼？"],["楊總裁金龍：委員這樣子講……"],["羅委員明才：大家的害怕完全展現出來了。這還有一個影響。"],["楊總裁金龍：對，某種程度，不過我還是……"],["羅委員明才：請問，台積電是臺灣的護國神山，你知道它的市值有多少？"],["楊總裁金龍：它的市值，我現在……"],["羅委員明才：33兆，所以它每漲1點，對臺股的影響有多大？"],["楊總裁金龍：8點嘛。"],["羅委員明才：8點嘛，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["羅委員明才：所以你看，臺灣現在股市已經連番下跌，這幾天跌很多，大概從兩萬多。接著，要請教一個……"],["楊總裁金龍：不過，我跟委員報告，我們的兩萬多，到目前為止，兩萬多還好。"],["羅委員明才：好。總裁，那台積電跑掉了以後，你覺得臺股2萬點是不是常態？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我不敢預測，因為我不是股市專家。"],["羅委員明才：台積電跑掉了以後，臺股有沒有機會上看3萬點？"],["楊總裁金龍：這個我不曉得，我不是股市的專家，所以我沒有辦法來預測。"],["羅委員明才：沒有，這只是一個代表對經濟未來的期待跟感覺，就好像黃金國際的走勢一樣，本席在7年前、6年前、5年前、3年前，還有去年，多次建議央行總裁要不要考慮買進黃金，總裁的回答是……"],["楊總裁金龍：對，上一次……"],["羅委員明才：都沒買啊！我建議的時候是每盎斯1,270元的時候，現在黃金每盎斯多少錢？總裁，是3,000元。"],["楊總裁金龍：我去年在委員會的時候，也有跟委員報告，我也佩服委員，但是我也說，中央銀行的考量是跟一般的不太一樣。"],["羅委員明才：這個不考量。","虛擬貨幣，你現在態度支不支持？像比特幣。川普總統所講的，五大虛擬貨幣他要作為戰略儲備，現在你是不是也要跟進？"],["楊總裁金龍：到目前為止，我們是不會啦，不過我們會密切關注……"],["羅委員明才：你現在支不支持臺灣做虛擬貨幣？"],["楊總裁金龍：關於戰略儲備這個東西，比特幣和其他的虛擬貨幣，是不是能夠當作戰略儲備，到目前為止，我還是稍微有一點question。"],["羅委員明才：總裁，希望你多考量，但是你不要違背川普，你不要忤逆川普啊。全世界的潮流在改變的時候，我們還要故步自封嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦，是啦……"],["羅委員明才：我建議你，虛擬貨幣比特幣那時候是一枚6,000塊美金，現在多少了？多少？之前漲到10萬塊美金一枚。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，是，是。"],["羅委員明才：我只是提醒央行，世界在變的時候，我們一定要故步自封嗎？世界在改變的時候，我們沒有一點檢討或思考的空間嗎？對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：好。謝謝，謝謝委員。謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：新臺幣的數字貨幣什麼時候會推出？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們還在往前走。"],["羅委員明才：我們這個會期還在等待。謝謝。"],["楊總裁金龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員的質詢。","羅委員每次報明牌，央行總裁不聽，大家可以聽，大家可以聽就賺了。","我們休息10分鐘。","休息（11時3分）","繼續開會（11時13分）"],["主席：向委員會報告，我們繼續開會。下一位質詢請黃珊珊委員質詢，請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-2","speakers":["賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","顏寬恒","郭國文","賴惠員","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","羅明才","黃珊珊","林思銘","李坤城","王世堅","陳玉珍","王鴻薇","邱志偉","陳冠廷","李柏毅"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請中央銀行楊總裁金龍率所屬單位主管暨財金資訊股份有限公司董事長列席業務報告，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00004"}}},{"id":"159102","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159102","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770fce637db028a9dbebfc7dc3b86466824cff1cdb1affc83ff442d906fa9f5dffe95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:45:37 - 11:00:12","影片長度":"00:14:35","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T10:45:37+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T11:00:12+08:00","duration":875,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-3-36-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.42846875,"end":27.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.22909375,"end":29.832218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.81534375,"end":31.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.95846875,"end":32.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.20221875,"end":46.454093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.02784375,"end":58.77284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.890968750000006,"end":63.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.46409375,"end":67.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.17659375000001,"end":69.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.69096875000001,"end":70.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.10846875,"end":75.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.74909375,"end":79.17471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.49534375,"end":80.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.38534375,"end":82.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.54971875000001,"end":108.94221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.46534375,"end":116.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.40159375,"end":112.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.63784375,"end":112.68846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.78909375,"end":117.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.05471875,"end":119.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.75909375,"end":120.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.81784375000001,"end":124.90596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.37846875000001,"end":126.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.88034375000001,"end":128.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.63534375,"end":176.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.10034375,"end":182.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.70284375,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.37284375000002,"end":194.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.24596875,"end":190.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.59534375,"end":206.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.45846875,"end":211.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.31846875000002,"end":220.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.27909375000002,"end":232.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.99034375000002,"end":239.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.71471875,"end":247.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.11034375000003,"end":252.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.73409375000003,"end":253.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.61159375000003,"end":266.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.69409375000004,"end":269.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.09846875,"end":304.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.05159375,"end":273.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.56971875,"end":311.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.18034375,"end":335.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.60284375000003,"end":337.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.83471875000004,"end":341.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.70721875000004,"end":346.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.04846875000004,"end":348.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.98909375,"end":351.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.38096875,"end":353.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.91221875,"end":355.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.53659375,"end":356.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.64596875,"end":359.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.61596875000004,"end":362.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.40471875000003,"end":365.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.26909375,"end":379.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.46096875,"end":386.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.66221875,"end":394.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.46284375000005,"end":399.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.93471875,"end":400.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.21721875000003,"end":403.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.95096875,"end":406.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.97159375,"end":415.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.40471875000003,"end":433.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.27534375000005,"end":441.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.32909375,"end":442.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.78034375000004,"end":443.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.16409375,"end":444.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.46346875,"end":448.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.46284375000005,"end":450.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.47534375000004,"end":456.07784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.65159375,"end":463.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.92471875,"end":477.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.08659375,"end":507.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.31846875,"end":510.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.34346875000006,"end":512.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.4865937500001,"end":516.5578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.92909375,"end":528.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.5134687500001,"end":531.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.40346875,"end":535.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.93034375,"end":537.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.00596875,"end":551.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.1640937500001,"end":555.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.1297187499999,"end":567.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.12784375,"end":580.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.9865937500001,"end":590.9428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.9428437500001,"end":590.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.9765937500001,"end":591.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.02721875,"end":591.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.04409375,"end":591.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.07784375,"end":591.1453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.1453437499999,"end":591.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.17909375,"end":591.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.5165937500001,"end":591.8034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.2084687500001,"end":592.4109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.4109687499999,"end":593.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.28846875,"end":594.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.0222187500001,"end":597.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.08096875,"end":605.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.4890937499999,"end":609.2522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.7078437499999,"end":609.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.72471875,"end":637.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.02846875,"end":649.7690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.56221875,"end":653.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.74721875,"end":655.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.57409375,"end":662.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.6615937500001,"end":667.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.57221875,"end":668.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.10784375,"end":669.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.93034375,"end":672.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":672.76971875,"end":673.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.2590937500001,"end":674.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":674.7609687500001,"end":675.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.14909375,"end":676.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.7690937500001,"end":677.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.95034375,"end":679.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.34659375,"end":682.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.1140937499999,"end":684.5990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.7509687500001,"end":685.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.11784375,"end":687.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.8728437500001,"end":688.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.03721875,"end":689.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.93159375,"end":698.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.8078437500001,"end":699.7022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.5459687500002,"end":701.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.6428437500001,"end":704.7647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.10221875,"end":705.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.19909375,"end":717.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":717.9778437500001,"end":718.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":718.46721875,"end":718.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":719.02409375,"end":734.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.0178437500001,"end":733.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":734.1609687499999,"end":738.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.2022187500002,"end":751.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.3859687500001,"end":755.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.0859687500001,"end":773.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.2222187500001,"end":778.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":779.8584687500002,"end":784.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":784.97159375,"end":787.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":788.3972187500001,"end":789.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":789.9497187500001,"end":795.8559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":796.4128437500001,"end":806.9428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":807.3815937500001,"end":808.6303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":809.1028437500001,"end":810.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":811.3640937500002,"end":812.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":813.49034375,"end":814.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":815.4140937500001,"end":816.9834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":818.29971875,"end":819.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.9365937500002,"end":823.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":823.64909375,"end":840.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":840.37221875,"end":861.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":859.5422187500001,"end":869.9540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":863.4909687500001,"end":863.7609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":871.5065937500001,"end":871.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":872.73846875,"end":874.83096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":22.193,"end":29.335,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們法務部任某村部長趙安樓次長市長市長甲正署署長麻煩甲正署署長"},{"start":32.245,"end":32.492,"text":"委員好"},{"start":38.246,"end":66.629,"text":"次長有幾個問題來就教啦我本期先開始一開始我先追問一下就是說有關於我們這個監所的深夜的危老家籍的一個問題在當時行政院提出說要警察還有消防 移民空勤輪班公務員深夜的一個危險津貼的時候那個時候我就提醒法務部就是我們在監所同樣性質的這些"},{"start":68.19,"end":92.652,"text":"矯正署的人員啊他們應該去比照辦理我也希望說你們可以向行政院來做一個爭取本期現在所知道的是說好像行政院跟你們講說性質不同我不曉得這個部分 次長你的看法那事實上本部也是完全贊成我們的矯正人員他要比照相關的警消有深夜的圍牢加急事實上本部的函文也向行政院爭取"},{"start":93.212,"end":120.789,"text":"當然行政院後來有一些意見那退回來之後本部也在今年的一月啊又再補充相關的補充理由希望行政院能夠再考量我們的矯正人員他的確他的危險跟警消他的深夜要比較相同的辦理這是本部一貫的立場所以這個部分我應該繼續向行政院來做一個爭取啦對這個才合理啦我就不曉得說你光講一個說性質不同不同在什麼地方我想署長你也很清楚吧"},{"start":122.152,"end":144.968,"text":"你們那些檢索人員 暗示啊 大家在那裡很大的危險性啊報告委員 我們去年的9月有報政院來爭取那我們人 行政院的意思是說所謂的深夜勤的100元的那個加班增加是"},{"start":145.748,"end":159.675,"text":"比如說警察的離開住在這派出所住在地的巡邏或是警消的救災或是像那個移民署他有查緝抓捕那我們監守"},{"start":160.836,"end":187.933,"text":"可能在性質上可能在爭他是請我們再斟酌一下然後再補充說明啦所以我們剛剛次長有提到我們一夜份也有在報行政院來爭取因為我們監所也有移監、借戶外衣這一些外面的勤務這也是離開為獎的那夜間深夜也是風險性比較大"},{"start":188.493,"end":211.379,"text":"所以市長這個繼續爭取啦好不好我是覺得這個應該值得支持啦另外喔 另外本席倒想針對在立法院裡面這一次針對法務部尤其是繳證書這個預算的凍結的部分來救教本席一直在講對於司法院或者對法務部這個預算的一個審查"},{"start":212.723,"end":238.954,"text":"監督當然要監督 國會本來就是要監督但問題是預算不管是刪減或者凍結要特別謹慎我想是不是請矯正署來具體做一個說明我們現在針對於我們譬如說少年矯正廚藝的方面哪一些措施會受到這一次的一個預算的一個刪除或者凍結受到影響"},{"start":242.289,"end":254.219,"text":"報告委員這個預算的刪減當然對於紹角校的所謂的新設的資源會受到很大的影響那包括我們矯正來講"},{"start":257.521,"end":267.025,"text":"所謂的性侵 家暴 或是毒品 酒飲這些都會有被受影響 整體來講我現在問你的是 你現在凍結一頁你對你的影響會有多大 我為什麼會提出這個問題"},{"start":275.149,"end":294.617,"text":"我們矯正機關對於我們的收容人含這一些矯正學校的學生你在實施不管是心理或者社工專業廚藝跟依法辦理的治療性的一些廚藝比如說你的毒品性侵犯家暴這一些你總體的經費裡面你現在矯正署你被凍結的是一億你除了去影響到你整個矯正教育還有整個輔導廚藝的資源以外你這一些各項的一個業務的執行"},{"start":305.663,"end":310.547,"text":"你說不會去影響我擔心的是什麼我擔心的是譬如說我們現在"},{"start":313.34,"end":341.562,"text":"訂了一個法院判決一個執行刑以後我們還有一些保安處分你涉及到保安處分的我說在野黨這一次的一個凍結這個預算我是覺得非常不合理的地方是應該要受到譴責的地方我也希望說我們召委吳宗憲因為是法律人出身的要特別去注意到這個問題我們最擔心的是什麼像譬如說我律師的職業生涯裡面我最擔心的是那種刑期"},{"start":344.533,"end":365.191,"text":"看不到他自己要被關幾年我一直在舉例我自己在屏東我的選區裡面 猥褻案件關於判案比較不適當執行下來多久 快20年我都覺得這個都違反整個刑期的一個明確性"},{"start":366.328,"end":374.054,"text":"然後呢 因為你繳制到最後 你應該沒有通過嘛 你說一個保安處分嘛 那沒辦法一年一屆 你現在五年 過三年 過一年 每年來做評鑑 評鑑都不會過這個一個強制猥褻案件 到最後你真正的執行期都比一個殺人犯還要長"},{"start":388.823,"end":415.002,"text":"這個有時候我會覺得都非常荒謬所以你把這個預算給砍掉 把它給凍結掉了我都很擔心啦台灣社會現在啊 大家都希望說 這一些罪犯抓去關關完以後 這個社會眼不見為淨全部都是你矯正所的事 都你矯正所的事人的犯罪之後 檢察官就起訴 法案就判刑判刑人送到監獄裡面去 喔這個社會都看不見了 喔好安全是這樣子喔"},{"start":417.386,"end":431.574,"text":"只要他不是被剝奪他的生命不是被判處死刑或者是終身監禁的總是你整個矯正教育送到監獄裡面就是要讓他再回歸社會嘛不然我們花這麼多錢我們給矯正署這麼多錢蓋這麼多監獄要幹什麼那這筆預算凍結了以後我最擔心的啦我最擔心的就是這些啦所以我怕到你們這個衝擊你像譬如說你"},{"start":444.172,"end":462.6,"text":"你判了七年 我不喜歡舉這種性侵案件啦因為性侵案件大家都討厭可是呢 如果說你判了七年你到了三年半他本身就可以服刑一半就可以假釋那你到了前兩年半的時候你就必須要去做評鑑"},{"start":464.031,"end":477.369,"text":"去做評鑑 那你把這一些錢 把它給凍結以後去影響到你們本來要作接保安處分的一些處遇的那你們說全部都 你們都不會叫 我都覺得很奇怪假設我看你們這次都沒有求救欸"},{"start":481.258,"end":492.341,"text":"報告委員 我們114年度首席整體所謂的相關處役是2.6億 被刪減1億的話除了剛剛我報告的這些輔導處役會受影響之外包括我們機關的設施機構的維護還有我們的人員訓練以及醫療各項業務都會受到執行上面的重大影響"},{"start":509.386,"end":527.839,"text":"你們講的是重大影響我看到的是法律層面我看到的是變成你一個保安處分出來以後本來你執行完以後還有一個保安處分那你這些保安處分你沒有辦法達到原來的一個效果會變成什麼"},{"start":530.558,"end":550.936,"text":"多增加了一個刑度欸你變成你保安處分跟你原來的刑法變成河流欸你本來要去做區隔欸你要讓他回歸到社會啊為什麼要保安處分你今天有債犯啊回到社會是一個風險啊可是你現在被凍結以後你衝擊到你整個矯正署你底下的這些矯正的處分這些資源你不覺得這個很荒謬嗎你不覺得這個問題很嚴重嗎"},{"start":556.515,"end":566.901,"text":"這會影響到我們整體社會治安那當然這個凍結部分我們本署會盡力盡全力來解凍做一些努力剛好相反"},{"start":568.171,"end":594.565,"text":"我認為不是影響到社會治安我是影響到 衝擊到整個人權的問題啦你就沒辦法出來 它會影響一直關 一直關 它會影響社會治安你的保安處分 你的預算 你就已經沒有了心理治療也好 各方面的治療也好你沒有辦法去讓它完成了怎麼會影響到社會治安 是繼續關下去啊它有可能期滿啦 社會出去期滿你還是要保安處分喔你還是要保安處分喔"},{"start":598.137,"end":606.671,"text":"你講的剛好相反啦我是怕的就變成說行旗變成無旗啦就是我們這個矯正你是署長的你跟我說答辯的這樣可以嗎 署長我請你回答"},{"start":609.933,"end":636.605,"text":"其實是這樣啦 監所內他要做相關的處遇嘛如果在監獄內的機構內的處遇做得好的話我們接下來的保安處分也許他期間就可以縮短如果機構內的處遇做得不好的話接下來他面對的是保安處分也許他的保安處分時間就長所以委員講的是有道理的就是說如果我們機構內監獄內的處遇做得好未來他機構外出去的保安處分接的時間就會短因為他在機構內已經做了相關的保安處遇了"},{"start":637.685,"end":653.42,"text":"光這一些保安處分喔 大法官至少你隨便去翻就兩號解釋啦就變成說這個保安處分 像我剛提那個案子啊 那個例子啊你就很明顯就違反比例原則嘛他有什麼例子 你給他判四宗的官 官要判二十宗"},{"start":654.89,"end":675.932,"text":"為什麼會這樣本來判四年就是執行四年啊可是我們就創設了因為要防止社會的風險啊我們就加一個保安處分啊然後你定期再給他去評鑑啊一評鑑不會過不會過不會過到二十年啊這也不對啊這也不對啊那個還不是性侵案件欸還是強制猥褻案件欸那是一種病啊"},{"start":676.843,"end":697.753,"text":"一個年輕人看到老太婆就給他亂摸亂摸當然檢察官就起訴啊 法官就判刑啊就抓去關啊 抓去關 關完啊我們這是一個地方上的一個廟的主委啊平常是整個社區整個鄉裡面的精神導師啊不是要來找我"},{"start":700.595,"end":717.564,"text":"在哭 你看 我走一下 說你不是大家都在找你告誡告誡 讓你 大家都知道你愛講精神安慰 玩你的雪花要給你精神安慰我一個人蒙內 他說我們今天判四宗 啊我就管二十宗我說天啊 如果有這個話就不可能 我聽下去我第一個想 一定是保安處分 被我猜對了"},{"start":719.105,"end":733.56,"text":"對 各位報告因為強制治療這種保安處分除了拘禁之外它還兼有一個社會防衛的功用所以我們在強制治療的時候它訂了一個它其實有個評估機制要到它再犯風險降低之後才停這個會變成什麼呢這個會衝擊到什麼呢 署長會衝擊到什麼假設制度你會形同虛設"},{"start":740.253,"end":754.572,"text":"本來你這個保安處分你去繳制他有可能提前出來 二分之一他就可以繳制可是因為你這個預算的去凍結了以後這一些繳正的一個儲遇會把你整個量能不夠"},{"start":755.813,"end":770.017,"text":"會衝擊到第一個 假釋之路也有可能第二個會變成什麼呢你這個保安處分變成遙遙無期啊遙遙無期我擔心的不是他的遙遙無期人權當然很重要這最主要你整個監獄裡面你對這些收容人來講的話人心也都會浮動啊第三個會怎麼樣你監所的管理我看你怎麼管理"},{"start":780.276,"end":788.688,"text":"所以我倒認為這個問題非常嚴重啦您這些解凍案啦我相信吳宗憲委員也會去幫忙啦在野黨"},{"start":790.277,"end":809.923,"text":"監督或者國會不分朝野這樣的一個監督都非常合理的可是難免啦這次凍結的時候啊都沒有想到這些後遺症啊你說司法院的精神的一個精神病患我們剛剛提到的35億快蓋好了 蓋了七成多了那個精神病院嘛齁你給他硬體有什麼用光硬體有什麼用你的心理師呢你的這些專業的廚藝呢"},{"start":818.322,"end":839.979,"text":"我們要的是這些啊 我們蓋這些硬體 國會給這筆錢的意義在讓這些受刑人他哪一天再趕快把他治好 把他重新讓他回到社會否則很簡單啊 犯人全部都關就好啦 全部都跟社會隔絕 這個社會就最安全了可是這是我們要的嗎 也不是吧"},{"start":840.459,"end":869.677,"text":"是 報告委員我們針對受刑人來講處役都是高度風險的那我們凍結或是刪減這些經費之後我們影響我們處役之後這些高度風險的處役成效降低之後他還是會回歸社會所以我講的是還是會影響理由寫一寫啦 趕快送解動案啦我幫你們忙啦 好不好這個對社會都高度衝擊的你們都不當一回事啊我最在意的反而是這一些啦 好不好"},{"start":873.056,"end":874.281,"text":"好 謝謝 那下一位我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":981,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時45分）謝謝主席，有請我們法務部，部長離開了，那就換次長，以及矯正署署長。"],["主席：請次長，麻煩請矯正署署長。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長，有幾個問題就教。本席一開始先追問一下，有關於我們監所的深夜危勞加給的問題，當時行政院提出說警察，還有消防、移民、空勤等輪班公務人員深夜的危險津貼的時候，那個時候我就提醒法務部，就是我們在監所同樣性質的這一些矯正署的人員，他們應該要比照辦理，我也希望你們可以向行政院來爭取。本席現在所知道的是，好像行政院跟你們講說性質不同，我不曉得這個部分，次長，你的看法呢？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，本部也完全贊成我們的矯正人員應比照相關的警消領取深夜的危勞加給，事實上本部也函文向行政院爭取，當然行政院後來有一些意見，退回來之後，本部也在今年的1月又再補充相關的理由，希望行政院能夠再考量，的確我們矯正人員深夜工作的危勞應該要相同的比照警消辦理，這是本部一貫的立場。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以這個部分應該繼續向行政院爭取……"],["黃次長謀信：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個才合理，我就不曉得光講一個說「性質不同」，不同在什麼地方？我想署長你也很清楚，對吧？你們一些監所人員晚上大家在……也有很大的危險性啊！"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們去年9月有報行政院爭取，行政院的意思是所謂深夜勤的加班增加100元，是比如說警察離開派出所駐在地的巡邏或是警消的救災，或是像移民署有查緝抓捕，我們監所可能在性質上，他是請我們再斟酌一下然後再補充說明。所以我們剛剛次長有提到，我們1月分也有再報行政院來爭取，因為我們監所也有移監、戒護外醫這一些外面的勤務，這也是離開圍牆的，夜間深夜的風險性也是比較大，所以……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以次長，這個繼續爭取啦！好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我是覺得這個應該值得支持啦！另外，本席倒想就立法院這一次針對法務部，尤其是矯正署預算凍結的部分來就教。本席一直在講，對於司法院或者法務部預算的審查監督，當然要監督，國會本來就是要監督，但問題是不管是刪減或者凍結預算要特別謹慎。我想是不是請矯正署具體做個說明，我們現在針對於比如說少年矯正處遇的方面，你哪一些措施會因為這一次預算的刪除或者凍結而受到影響？"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，預算的刪減當然對於少矯校的新設的資源會受到很大的影響，包括我們矯正來講，所謂的性侵、家暴或是毒品、酒癮，整體來講這些都會備受影響。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我現在問你的是，你現在被凍結1億，對你的影響會有多大？我為什麼會提出這個問題，我們的矯正機關對於收容人，包含這些矯正學校的學生，你在實施不管是心理或者社工專業處遇跟依法辦理的治療性的一些處遇，比如說你的毒品、性侵犯、家暴這一些，你總體的經費裡面，現在矯正署被凍結的是1億，除了影響到整個矯正教育，還有整個輔導處遇的資源以外，你們各項業務的執行，你說不會去影響，我擔心的是什麼？我擔心的是譬如說，我們現在法院判決一個執行刑以後，還有一些保安處分，涉及到保安處分的預算，我說在野黨這一次凍結這個預算，我覺得這是非常不合理的地方，是應該要受到譴責的地方。","我也希望我們的召委吳宗憲，你也是法律人出身的，要特別去注意到這個問題。我們最擔心的是什麼？像比如說我律師的執業生涯裡面，我最擔心的是那種刑期看不到他自己要被關幾年，我一直在舉例，我自己在屏東我的選區裡面，猥褻案件判的刑期還不到4年，執行下來多久？快20年。我覺得這個都違反整個刑期的明確性，然後矯治到最後因為你沒有通過嘛，你說一個保安處分嘛，沒有辦法一年一次，現在是5年再過來是3年然後再過來是1年，每年來做評鑑，評鑑都不過，導致一個強制猥褻案件到最後真正的執行期比一個殺人犯還要長，這種情形有時候我都覺得非常荒謬。所以把這個預算給砍掉、把它給凍結掉了，我都很擔心。臺灣社會現在大家都希望把這些罪犯抓去關，關完以後大家眼不見為淨，全部都是你們矯正署的事。全都矯正署的事情！有人犯罪以後，檢察官就起訴、法官就判刑，然後把他送到監獄裡面去，這個社會都看不見，以為好安全。是這樣子哦？其實只要他不是被剝奪生命、不是被判處死刑或者是終身監禁，送到監獄裡面以後，整個矯正教育就是要讓他再回歸社會嘛！不然我們花這麼多錢、給矯正署這麼多錢、蓋這麼多監獄要幹什麼？","這筆預算被凍結以後，我最擔心的就是這些，我怕你們會受到這個衝擊，比如說判了7年，我不喜歡舉性侵案件，因為性侵案件大家都討厭，可是如果判了7年，到了3年半，他本身服刑一半就可以申請假釋，到了2年半的時候就必須做評鑑，這些錢被凍結以後，去影響到你們本來要做這些保安處分的一些處遇，你說你們全部都不會叫，我就覺得很奇怪。矯正署，我看你們這次都沒有求救耶！"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，我們114年度整體相關處遇所需預算是2.6億，被刪減1億的話，除了剛剛我報告的這些輔導處遇會受影響之外，包括我們機關的設施、機構的維護，還有我們的人員訓練以及醫療各項業務的執行都會受到重大影響。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們講的是重大影響，我看到的是法律層面，我看到的是變成一個保安處分出來以後，本來你們執行完以後還要有一個保安處分，而這些保安處分沒有辦法達到原來的效果，會變成什麼？多增加一個刑度，變成保安處分和原來的刑罰合流耶！本來是要去做區隔的，因為要讓他回歸到社會啊！為什麼要保安處分？怕他會再犯，回到社會是一個風險。可是你們的預算現在被凍結以後，衝擊到整個矯正署底下這些矯正處分的資源，你不覺得這個很荒謬嗎？你不覺得這個問題很嚴重嗎？"],["周署長輝煌：這會影響到整體社會治安。當然，對於這個凍結的部分，本署會盡全力來為解凍做一些努力。"],["莊委員瑞雄：剛好相反！我認為不是影響到社會治安，而是影響到、衝擊到整個人權的問題。他們就沒辦法出來，怎麼會有影響？一直關、一直關，哪會影響到社會治安？保安處分的預算已經沒了，心理治療也好，各方面的治療也好，你們沒辦法讓它完成了，怎麼會影響到社會治安？是繼續關下去啊！"],["周署長輝煌：他有可能期滿還是會出去。"],["莊委員瑞雄：期滿還是要保安處分啊！你講的剛好相反。我怕的是刑期變成無期，就是這個矯正……","欸！你是署長耶，還跟我講相反的！這樣怎麼可以？","次長，我請你回答。"],["黃次長謀信：其實是這樣，監所內要做相關的處遇，如果在監獄內、機構內的處遇做得好的話，接下來的保安處分也許期間就可以縮短，如果機構內的處遇做得不好的話，接下來他面對的是保安處分，也許他保安處分的時間就長，所以委員講的是有道理的，就是說，如果機構內、監獄內的處遇做得好，未來他機構外、出去的保安處分銜接的時間就會短，因為他在機構內已經做了相關的處遇了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：光是這些保安處分，大法官解釋隨便去翻就有2號解釋，像我剛剛提的那個例子，就變成這個保安處分很明顯地違反比例原則嘛！哪有判4年，變成關了快要20年，為什麼會這樣？本來判4年就是執行4年啊，可是我們為了防止社會風險，就加了一個保安處分，定期進行評鑑，評鑑不會過、不會過、不會過，就這樣到了20年。這也不對啊！這還不是性侵案件，而是強制猥褻案件耶！那是一種病啊！一個年輕人看到老太婆，給人家亂摸，檢察官當然就起訴，法官就判刑，然後把他抓去關。那是地方上一個廟的主委，平常是整個社區、整個鄉裡面的精神導師，晚上來找我，在那邊哭，我嚇了一跳，對他說：不是大家都要找你告解嗎？應該是你提供大家精神安慰，怎麼換我要給你精神安慰？一問之下才知道他兒子被判4年，結果被關了快要20年。我說天底下怎麼會有這種法律，不可能，聽下去之後第一個想到的就是保安處分，結果就被我猜對了。"],["黃次長謀信：對，跟委員報告，因為強制治療的保安處分除了拘禁之外，還兼有社會防衛的功用，所以強制治療有一個評估機制，要到他再犯風險降低之後才停，這是一個制度設計上的問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個會衝擊到什麼呢？署長，會衝擊到什麼呢？假釋制度會形同虛設！本來這個保安處分的矯治有可能讓他提前出來，二分之一就可以申請假釋了，可是因為這個預算被凍結，整個矯正處遇的量能會不夠，會衝擊到的第一個可能是假釋制度；第二個是這個保安處分會變成遙遙無期，我擔心的不是它的遙遙無期，人權當然很重要，最主要是對這些收容人來講，整個監獄裡面人心也都會浮動；第三個是監所的管理，我看你怎麼管理！","所以我倒是認為這個問題非常嚴重。對於你們這個解凍案，我相信吳宗憲委員也會去幫忙，在野黨監督或者是國會不分朝野這樣的監督都非常合理，可是難免在這次凍結的時候都沒有想到這些後遺症。你說司法院的精神病院，我們剛剛提到35億，快蓋好了、蓋了七成多了，你給它硬體有什麼用？光是硬體有什麼用？你們的心理師呢？專業處遇呢？我們要的是這些啊！我們蓋這些硬體、國會給這筆錢的意義在於哪一天能趕快把這些受刑人治好，讓他們重新回到社會。不然很簡單啊，犯人全部關著就好了啊！全部都跟社會隔絕，這個社會就最安全了啊！可是這是我們要的嗎？也不是吧！"],["周署長輝煌：報告委員，針對受刑人來講，處遇都是高度風險的，凍結或是刪減這些經費，影響到我們的處遇，這些高度風險的處遇成效降低之後，他還是會回歸社會，所以我要說的是還是會影響到社會，是這個原因。"],["莊委員瑞雄：理由寫一寫啦！趕快送解凍案，本席會幫你們，好不好？這對社會高度衝擊，你們都不當一回事，本席最在意的反而是這些啦！"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請王義川委員發言。","同時做會議宣告，翁曉玲委員詢答完畢之後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":462,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-2","speakers":["吳宗憲","羅智強","柯建銘","王義川","吳思瑤","黃國昌","王鴻薇","沈發惠","傅崐萁","莊瑞雄","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","林倩綺","楊瓊瓔","蔡易餘"],"page_start":361,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00011"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請法務部部長率所屬單位主管列席報告業務概況及立法計畫，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142601_00011"}}},{"id":"159101","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159101","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770ffb698e6aeda873c46b0a9b5bba3c53abf83dc853112caf45bebb33ff5aa7d9f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:39:52 - 10:59:08","影片長度":"00:19:16","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長報告「國機國造交機進度及勇鷹高教機失事後檢修情況」，並備質詢。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T10:39:52+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T10:59:08+08:00","duration":1156,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-3-35-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":7.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.9790937500000005,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.19784375,"end":23.925968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.501593750000005,"end":56.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.24596875,"end":57.237218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.59159375,"end":60.257843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.257843750000006,"end":63.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.586593750000006,"end":65.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.18971875,"end":67.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.95284375,"end":86.38034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.78534375000001,"end":89.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.78909375,"end":113.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.64596875000001,"end":119.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.75909375,"end":123.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.74159375,"end":134.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.50784375,"end":136.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.52471875,"end":134.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.90846875,"end":145.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.86909375000002,"end":184.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.03721875000002,"end":149.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.86346875,"end":153.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":184.99784375000002,"end":202.98659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":203.32409375,"end":204.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":204.92721875,"end":212.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.38596875000002,"end":214.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.15346875,"end":217.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":217.58346875,"end":223.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.96221875,"end":228.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":228.45096875000002,"end":228.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.95721875,"end":229.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.91909375,"end":271.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":271.83659375,"end":296.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.85409375,"end":295.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.98471875,"end":324.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":324.45284375,"end":324.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.06034375,"end":326.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":327.33846875,"end":331.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.71346875,"end":332.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":333.54846875000004,"end":333.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":335.33721875000003,"end":335.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.84346875,"end":348.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.29284375000003,"end":377.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.42346875000004,"end":378.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.07721875000004,"end":401.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.43659375000004,"end":441.31221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":442.12221875,"end":448.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.23096875000005,"end":449.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":449.46284375000005,"end":452.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.07846875,"end":453.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":453.14159375,"end":453.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":453.20909375,"end":456.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.52534375000005,"end":465.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":464.39721875000004,"end":478.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.25159375000004,"end":485.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":483.80346875000004,"end":490.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.35534375000003,"end":490.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":490.94159375000004,"end":491.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.03846875000005,"end":538.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":539.42346875,"end":572.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.8234687500001,"end":572.1103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.5490937500001,"end":611.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":612.69471875,"end":614.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.57221875,"end":629.2490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":629.6203437500001,"end":651.7265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.72159375,"end":629.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.92909375,"end":658.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.54409375,"end":698.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.90909375,"end":743.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.8090937500001,"end":759.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":759.76034375,"end":763.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":763.16909375,"end":770.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":770.37471875,"end":784.1953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":784.6340937500001,"end":788.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":788.8359687500001,"end":788.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":788.93721875,"end":789.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":789.05534375,"end":793.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":793.8984687500001,"end":793.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":793.9153437500001,"end":813.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":813.7097187500001,"end":815.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":815.90346875,"end":817.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":818.58659375,"end":839.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":839.7478437500001,"end":843.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":842.6840937500001,"end":847.7803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":847.40909375,"end":850.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":850.53096875,"end":855.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":854.41221875,"end":857.3484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":856.4540937500001,"end":861.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":862.76534375,"end":870.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":871.32096875,"end":874.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":872.58659375,"end":874.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":874.3078437500001,"end":882.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":882.10409375,"end":893.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":893.35971875,"end":899.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":900.3290937500001,"end":903.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":903.1472187500001,"end":937.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":937.40346875,"end":943.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":942.71909375,"end":951.2747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":947.4609687500001,"end":948.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":949.77284375,"end":950.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":951.6797187500001,"end":952.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":952.28721875,"end":957.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":957.6197187500002,"end":960.7078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":960.9947187500002,"end":962.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":962.85096875,"end":965.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":965.7365937500001,"end":970.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":971.87909375,"end":978.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":980.28284375,"end":982.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":983.69159375,"end":988.5178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":989.2434687500001,"end":991.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":992.38221875,"end":1013.8134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1014.75846875,"end":1016.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1017.7622187500001,"end":1019.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1019.7197187500001,"end":1022.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1022.23409375,"end":1027.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1026.9253437500001,"end":1029.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1029.27096875,"end":1053.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1054.29659375,"end":1073.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1074.27659375,"end":1075.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1075.6434687500002,"end":1077.2972187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1077.80346875,"end":1080.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1080.9759687500002,"end":1081.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1082.7478437500001,"end":1084.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1085.3297187500002,"end":1085.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1086.5447187500001,"end":1087.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1088.2322187500001,"end":1089.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1089.6497187500001,"end":1091.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1091.28659375,"end":1094.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1097.19284375,"end":1101.3103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1101.3103437500001,"end":1102.3397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1102.3397187500002,"end":1102.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1102.42409375,"end":1102.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1102.7109687500001,"end":1104.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1104.51659375,"end":1104.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1104.95534375,"end":1110.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1104.9722187500001,"end":1105.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1111.4353437500001,"end":1113.1734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1114.0340937500002,"end":1120.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1120.64909375,"end":1128.6140937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1129.2047187500002,"end":1141.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1141.79346875,"end":1154.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1154.71971875,"end":1154.8040937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1154.82096875,"end":1156.2047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1156.2047187500002,"end":1156.4578437500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.229,"end":23.571,"text":"想請問一下那媒體報導的時候就最近有談到如果今天我們有台灣人他的身分證那他也同時有中國大陸的這個身分證中華人民共和國的身分證那義務役仍然是能夠可以當兵的是嗎"},{"start":39.96,"end":56.886,"text":"我是連議次長 按照那個兩岸關係條例九十一條裡面明定就是他具有中國身份的然後他有我們中華民國身份他在這個義務上面他還是要去盡到他應該盡的責任那有沒有打算要收政這一條"},{"start":57.779,"end":86.216,"text":"那是陸委會的兩岸關係條例對啊 有沒有打算跟陸委會來協調說要刪除這條你們覺得這樣子是正確的嗎因為義務役如果他有中華人民共和國的身份證能夠來當兵的話有沒有想過一種可能是我們中華民國國軍的組成裡面會有中國共產黨的黨員或者是被中共收買來發展組織的荒謬的現象發生有沒有可能"},{"start":86.823,"end":112.457,"text":"有可能 這個我們再跟陸委會那邊來做一個有可能嘛 前一陣子有一個網紅說台灣有20萬的人領有中共身分證雖然這個內政部查了之後也沒那麼多但假設他說的是真的好了 換算是1%也就是說呢 我們國軍裡面有潛藏1600萬的中共同路人那請問你們面對這樣子的一個說法你們覺得是正確的嗎"},{"start":115.475,"end":118.863,"text":"這個數據的部分我們沒有辦法去做一個說明說它是否正確"},{"start":119.83,"end":144.247,"text":"那你們有去檢查或核實嗎要如何查核目前我們現在已經按照陸委會的指導就是請全軍所有人不管志願役或者是義務役的都要去填寫他的他是否具有只要填寫就好了沒有辦法查然後只要是志願役的他如果沒有按照實際來去做填寫那後面如果查到他就會上司擔任公職"},{"start":144.987,"end":172.594,"text":"所以他要被查到嘛我們沒有辦法去做查核那他只有如果有人舉報被查到的話才有可能會去做後續的動作是那這樣子的話其實還是有很高的風險啊好那接下來呢為什麼我要討論這個就是大家今天最關心的就是腰塞管理的部分那這個阿兵哥的手機遺失流到中國大陸裡面呢這個訓練照看起來這個沒有什麼問題但是裡面有這個手機的長官的電話"},{"start":174.514,"end":201.416,"text":"那我想請問一下你們知不知道這個13拐的他不見的手機不見的時間是在什麼時候委員好我是陸軍事務部常務長我們從這個相關的訊息來了解這員無姓士兵他是在112年9月26號退伍那我們掌握到他的一些通聯的狀況大致"},{"start":205.258,"end":218.087,"text":"上面的訊息的時間大致是停留在112年的3月左右3月6號左右好那我們看一下下一張圖其實實際上面它上面有寫時間嗎這個是他手機在2021年7月28號上鎖管制的最後時間"},{"start":224.191,"end":245.294,"text":"對最後管制時間所以他是在更之後的時候手機才弄丟的嗎是的OK好那呢好再來我要問一下說現行的規定必須要登錄辦理這個管制標籤的註銷但沒有強制要求國軍人員一定要安裝能夠遠端刪除手機內容的軟體那反觀呢我們可以看一下美國"},{"start":246.195,"end":271.091,"text":"美國他們的做法呢 這邊就有寫嘛Consider installing security that offers remote location.We place this on the web等等的 就這句話他呢是有一個方式是如果你的手機遺失的話他有權去把你的這裡面的這些資料全部都清除那為什麼我們做了這個MDM但是我們卻沒有相關的做法"},{"start":273.753,"end":295.787,"text":"我們慣了MDN是禁止在營內裡面照相攝影然後熱點開放以及這個藍芽功能不能使用那如果要移除的話一定要專門的電腦裡面才能移除MDN這個裝置那剛剛在省委員在執行的時候也在講到這一點民用手機是不是可以安裝這個軟體我們這個下去我們會研究如果行的話我們會來"},{"start":296.087,"end":323.971,"text":"再來你們這個MDM已經被非常多的國軍所詬病就說你們怎麼會做出這種十年前的產物比方說你們在Android的手機跟在iPhone的手機裡面灌了這個MDM之後當它退伍的時候要把它的MDM取消的時候結果完全不一樣如果是Android的話它資料可以被留下來如果是iPhone的話它資料會全部被清除你們知道這件事嗎"},{"start":324.491,"end":348.675,"text":"知道那為什麼會要這樣子因為這個是我們也是偽中科院來執行這個設計MDM那中科院是不是沒做好我用iPhone的手機跟我用Android手機我都是帶手機進去的我們都換了MDM了那為什麼用Android手機它可以留下它的備份紀錄那iPhone卻要全部消除"},{"start":349.515,"end":377.149,"text":"跟委員報告我是中科院副院長那iOS的手機它基本上iOS是一個封閉的系統那Android的系統它是一個開放式架構所以開放式架構對我們在做設計包含了安裝移除或者是monitor這些對開放式架構它有一定的程序所以我們比較能夠可以掌握但是iOS的話它的所有的安裝的軟體要經過這個Apple手機Apple公司的一些認證所以可能在這個上面確實是有一些困難"},{"start":377.449,"end":400.658,"text":"好那我在講你會發現有很多的這個軍人朋友都告訴你有什麼樣方式可以逃脫比方說如果你在軍營之前你在入營之前就先灌好這個LINE或者是其他軟體的話然後你再繼續灌MDN的話它原本灌的東西就也不會被刪掉"},{"start":401.522,"end":423.729,"text":"所以這可能才是導致為什麼他的這個為什麼他有這麼多的LINE我們看一下那個圖片你可以看到他的LINE裡面呢如果是剛剛那兩張照片的話我並不是很在意喔可是他的LINE裡面包含是我們跟這個比如說度蜜月一三七啊早餐的稍微便當已經放在桌上啊"},{"start":424.809,"end":440.7,"text":"連長福當昭好啊我們到了衛訓中心報到啊然後呢這個兵器組的誰誰誰誰誰他基本上把我們很多的士兵的名字都放在上面以及我們的長官的聯絡電話全部都放在上面這有沒有很明顯的國安問題"},{"start":442.605,"end":461.216,"text":"向委員報告這些資料我們去做過審認它是你如何審認的我們就目前可以看得到的資料你從哪裡看的就是網路上公開網路上而已那網路上對啊手機不在你手上嘛那網路上它只公佈一小部分而已啊"},{"start":462.496,"end":490.567,"text":"這個大陸的這個網友他只貼了兩三張圖而已我跟委員報告一下我們清查了一下這位士兵他在四年的服役務役的期間他所擔任的職務都是所謂沒有揭秘的他就是比較基層的一般專長的士兵基層的一般專長士兵但他的聯絡的方式裡面卻填寫了我們非常多的長官的聯絡電話他就是一般在行政工作上的回報並沒有涉及到好我們看下一張好不好是"},{"start":492.133,"end":520.848,"text":"其實你可以看到呢這個是另外一張最新的這個機組是國軍他手機被偷了資料完全沒有清國軍一三旅這個的電話裡面有他的後勤跟上級的這個相關的對話然後呢裡面呢他也有很多他自己寫的備忘錄就包含他在當兵的時候一些心得然後呢他的這個整個過程然後呢後面呢他裡面也寫說這是班級群"},{"start":521.428,"end":538.288,"text":"所以我想要問一下如果說這些名單裡面都外露了那這個中共他這裡他可以掌握我們的國軍的這個名冊名單還有長官的聯絡電話之後那是不是他在發展組織或是刺探情報上面他有更簡單的方式能夠來做"},{"start":539.725,"end":566.675,"text":"跟委員報告基本上在這方面的確是有一個我們需要檢討精進的部分也就是說他的手機在報遺失或是更換的時候事實上他這個群組我們也律定了相關的管理規範單位是沒有去落實把他做這個退群的動作如果他退出這個群組這相關的資訊是不應該顯示的那其實我們也從這個案例上面去就我們的規定跟執行"},{"start":567.555,"end":581.926,"text":"是否有落實我們也要持續的去做要求向委員說明那再來呢我要再講一個齁這個也是我們的軍人說的他說呢如果你在入營之前你就要想好你要用什麼LINE帳號"},{"start":582.606,"end":610.655,"text":"想好之後呢在一開始或第一次售價的時候帶回營區灌MDM所以呢因為第一週你要帶什麼呢頂多只是被保管而已班長也沒空把你怎麼樣所以呢如果你在第一週的時候你就把你的LINE手機準備好的話那之後呢你就不需要再另外加群組也不需要另外一支手機那在灌MDM的時候其實它就有一個漏洞你們知道這件事情嗎"},{"start":613.663,"end":629.254,"text":"不知道不知道這個非常清楚在網路上面都可以查得到很多人在教學要怎麼樣同時讓你的Line跟你的這個MDM在一起他最簡單的方式就是他先灌了我們的軟體之後然後呢他再去加MDM"},{"start":629.656,"end":651.583,"text":"因為私人的LINE跟MDN是兩件事情它不會有任何的衝突也不會有影響我們剛剛講過灌MDN這件事情是禁止我們官兵在營內使用照相攝影熱點分享以及這個藍芽功能是限制他們這些功能不能使用它之前灌了LINE的群組它還是LINE那個是沒有不相衝突的"},{"start":652.623,"end":680.682,"text":"所以呢他裡面就講說呢你基本上呢你可以先把要就是因為他認為說呢你如果之後再加群組或放假回報沒有LINE的話會很麻煩那你灌MDN的時候Android帶傳輸線跟登出裡面的帳號基本上呢都可以重正常灌不用重設甚至Android版本的MDN還可以自己自動上鎖跟檢索所以呢比起要監管的Apple的這個安裝時間比較快"},{"start":682.083,"end":698.386,"text":"那我最後我要講的意思就是說你們在MDM的這個設計上面雖然剛剛講說可以隱藏一些資訊但是有幾個缺失第一個缺失就是其實在網路上已經有很多人他們嘗試去破解這個東西而且是成功的"},{"start":699.006,"end":723.764,"text":"第二件事情呢就是你們在同樣是手機裡面在Android的跟在Apple裡面他們最後處理掉的方法是完全不一樣這對很多人來說是並不公平的一件事情第三件事情呢是在這個手機它遺失之後我們卻沒有任何的能力去追蹤它的手機在哪裡然後並且把它清除簡單來說如果你用Apple或是用Android的話"},{"start":724.665,"end":741.204,"text":"實際上面呢你是可以在他報案之後第一時間就可以去追蹤他的手機的位置定位點的但是呢我們的國軍卻沒有這麼做所以才發生這次的這個所謂的二手機的事件所以我想問一下這四件事情到底是哪裡至愛難行導致於這樣子的情況發生"},{"start":744.841,"end":762.162,"text":"你們有沒有打算重新去檢討你們MDM是一個很過時然後被很多的基層軍人認為是很沒有用很沒有意義而且很容易破解然後呢這個也很不先進的一個東西你們有沒有考慮要重新去檢討整個機制"},{"start":763.463,"end":783.179,"text":"這個我們可以下去之後再考慮一下因為事實上中科院的MDN它的版本是一直都有在更新的那更新的還是很爛啊我剛剛講的就是2025年的時候的士兵他們所說的東西啊還不夠新嗎2025年的時候年初的時候大家還在討論這件事情啊在這個事件爆發之前大家就在討論這件事啦"},{"start":784.69,"end":807.81,"text":"那我們下去再研究看是不是有更好的方式可以功能性要設置限制他們不能使用然後但是有更好的軟體可以我講一個最簡單的如果我今天我的手機遺失的時候其實它上面都有那個追蹤碼那每一支手機它的型號上它都有追蹤碼坦白說透過我們的相關系統裡面是可以追蹤那個手機現在在哪裡的"},{"start":808.49,"end":817.475,"text":"那如果當下他報案之後我們立即去追的話他還會被賣到大陸去嗎他在台灣可能就被找到啦那為什麼沒有做這件事情呢"},{"start":818.775,"end":839.341,"text":"這是現行的這是現行的我們的制度就可以做到的東西啊我們現行的科技就可以完成的東西啊為什麼我們要等到這個手機被賣到流浪到大陸之後然後呢被打開了然後裡面有很多人的電話然後呢裡面有很多他個人的隱私資料之後我們才回頭來今天要討論這件事情"},{"start":839.821,"end":861.726,"text":"因為手機是屬於個人的產品個人的自己的私人的物品但他都報案啦他都報案的意思是說跟你們報案的意思是說報案應該是由內政部來調查不是由警政單位不屬於報案他報案之後這是一個國軍使用的手機嘛所以他的意義不同嘛他是個人的手機他不是國軍他是私人手機對他是私人的手機沒錯但他是以他是報案的時候他有沒有講他是國軍的身份沒有"},{"start":862.813,"end":869.592,"text":"就你們了解沒有講是國軍的身份嗎他沒有告訴你們是國軍的身份就直接只是報師而已那為什麼要報師"},{"start":871.414,"end":899.7,"text":"一般人的手機不見就算啦他是被偷竊他被偷竊那被偷竊之後你們沒有一個準則說國軍的手機被偷竊之後的SOP要怎麼處理沒有去做教育我們公用的公務手機的話我們有這樣的管制規定那但是私人的手機我們就沒有這樣的綠定說要怎麼來執行因為這是他私人的財產那他東西掉了是讓他報案可是你們裡面都灌了MDM啦代表說這個手機跟你們的國軍這裡是有一定的聯繫程度的啊"},{"start":900.57,"end":923.592,"text":"關於那個功能是限制他在營區不能做這個我知道但是問題是你這東西他裡面還有很多LINE跟他的群組裡面就已經有很多相關跟國軍相關的資料還有呢可能有各種的電話號碼跟他自己在國軍裡面你知道嗎他有一個記事本裡面就寫著他在國軍裡面各式各樣發生的事情其實東西全部都流到中國大陸去沒有國安的問題嗎"},{"start":924.793,"end":944.25,"text":"所以我的意思是說對這當然是他私人的財產但他當他跟國軍連在一起的時候他MDN沒有解除你們會不知道嗎我問一下這個MDN他沒有解除這件事情你們不知道嗎一定沒有辦法解除我剛剛有講過他MDN一定要在專用的這個電腦上面才能移除所以你們在國軍退役的時候那你一併幫他移除那他私人手機就不移除了"},{"start":951.736,"end":978.18,"text":"移除 會移除對啊 那你這樣講前後矛盾啊你不是說他的私人手機也會被移除嗎他被偷竊 他還沒有退伍前就已經移屍了他不是在退伍後移屍的那你們就是沒有注意這個漏洞啊他如果手機掉了呢就沒有辦法移除MDN然後呢 你們也沒有去追蹤那你不覺得這中間那我如果是一個中共的間諜我是專門去偷那些士兵的手機就好啦"},{"start":980.322,"end":1007.041,"text":"你們沒有發現這裡面有很嚴重的國安問題嗎我知道誰在當兵的我就趁他不注意的時候把他手機偷走這有很難嗎他平常時也要出來生活也會放假我只要掌握這些名單比方說剛才他的這些名單上面都是我們現在的國軍嘛還有長官的聯絡方式嘛那你可能說你的這個LINE群組裡面有一些人他可能是義務役可是長官的聯絡方式他是一定是志願役的啊"},{"start":1007.521,"end":1016.696,"text":"那我知道他的名字之後那我就去找一找我看到他那手機在桌上我順手牽羊摸走之後那你們也沒有任何辦法可以管啊"},{"start":1017.816,"end":1042.043,"text":"有沒有辦法追蹤啊有沒有辦法處理啊怎麼會這樣呢針對能夠移除後端移除的這個問題我們下期會研究看怎麼你們需要花多少時間研究啊這事情已經很久了因為我後來去查從你們MDM開始做起之後就有非常多的基層的士兵在抱怨相關的這個APP做得非常的爛然後呢也有很多的漏洞"},{"start":1042.543,"end":1063.436,"text":"但是你們都沒有去注意我們基層軍人的聲音然後今天引發了這樣子的國安問題所以我想要請問你們需要多久的時間能夠去把這樣子的一個系統做升級做重新的管理然後避免這種所謂只要被偷竊了那你的MDM然後你的所有的資訊就都外洩出去了"},{"start":1064.676,"end":1081.242,"text":"今天幸好他是一個EUE他是退伍的如果今天是志願役呢如果他是高層長官然後遺失了呢那會發生什麼事會發生什麼事如果是你們三位的手機突然不見了呢會發生什麼事你有沒有想過"},{"start":1082.796,"end":1109.765,"text":"如果郭部長的手機被偷了呢?那怎麼辦?你們有辦法追蹤嗎?你有辦法解除他手機裡面的內容嗎?那我們不是所有國軍的重要的資訊都流出去了嗎?我們一般不會在私人的手機上面聊公務事情你怎麼知道?你怎麼知道?你剛剛都已經講是私人手機所以他要用私人手機做什麼?那是他的財產"},{"start":1111.502,"end":1112.987,"text":"所以那只是你的假定而已"},{"start":1114.142,"end":1140.87,"text":"委員剛剛指導的四個重點我們後續研究完精進的措施我們會到這個一定要精進研究因為是今天剛好他是EWE如果是在場的你們幾位的手機被偷竊的話然後後續的對我們國安影響是非常非常非常大的因為你們沒有追蹤的機會你們沒有辦法清空他的資訊然後你們認為那是他的私人財產所以你沒有辦法去動他"},{"start":1141.912,"end":1154.068,"text":"所以今年幸好是一個小小的義務役如果今天是我們的志願役甚至是高層那不好意思我們的國安漏洞可大了所以請我們的國軍一定要重視這件事情儘速改善謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":365,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時39分）我想請問一下，媒體報導在最近有談到，如果今天有臺灣人除了有這裡的身分證，還同時有中華人民共和國的身分證，那可以服義務役、仍然能夠當兵，是嗎？"],["劉次長沛智：委員好，我是聯一次長。在兩岸人民關係條例第九條之一有明定，就是他具有中國身分，然後他有我們中華民國身分，他在這個義務上面還是要去盡到他應該盡的責任。"],["徐委員巧芯：那有沒有打算要修正這一條？"],["劉次長沛智：那是陸委會主管的兩岸人民關係條例。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！你們有沒有打算跟陸委會來協調要刪除這一條？"],["劉次長沛智：我們再跟陸委會溝通。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們覺得這樣子是正確的嗎？對於義務役，如果他有中華人民共和國的身分證卻還是能夠來當兵的話，你們有沒有想過會有一種可能，就是在我們中華民國國軍的組成裡面會有中國共產黨的黨員，或者是被中共收買來發展組織的這種荒謬的現象發生？有沒有可能？"],["劉次長沛智：有可能，這個我們再跟陸委會那邊來溝通。"],["徐委員巧芯：有可能嘛！"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：前一陣子有一個網紅說臺灣有20萬人領有中共身分證，雖然內政部查了之後說也沒那麼多，但假設他說的是真的，換算後是1%，也就是說，在我們的國軍裡面有潛藏1,600位中共同路人，請問你們面對這樣的說法，你們覺得是正確的嗎？"],["劉次長沛智：對這個數據的部分我們沒有辦法去做一個說明說它是否正確。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你們有去檢查或核實嗎？要如何查核？"],["劉次長沛智：目前我們已經按照陸委會的指導請全軍所有的人，不管是志願役或義務役，都要去填寫他是否具有……"],["徐委員巧芯：只要填寫就好了，沒有辦法查核？"],["劉次長沛智：是，然後只要是志願役，他如果沒有照實填寫，在之後如果查到，他就會喪失擔任公職、軍職的機會。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以他要被查到嘛！我們沒有辦法去做查核。"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以如果有人舉報而被查到的話，才有可能會去做後續的動作。"],["劉次長沛智：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果是這樣的話，其實還是有很高的風險啊！為什麼我要討論這個問題？因為這是大家今天最關心的，也就是137旅的部分，有阿兵哥的手機遺失流到中國大陸，裡面的這個訓練照看起來沒有什麼問題，但是裡面有長官的電話號碼。我想請問一下，你們知不知道這個137旅的阿兵哥手機不見的時間是在什麼時候？"],["陳參謀長建義：委員好，我是陸軍司令部參謀長，我們從相關的訊息了解到，這員吳姓士兵是在112年9月26號退伍，那我們有掌握到他的一些通聯狀況，上面訊息的時間大致是停留在112年的3月6號左右。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我們看下一張圖，其實這上面有寫時間嘛！"],["陳參謀長建義：這個是他手機在2021年7月28號上鎖管制的最後時間。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，最後管制時間，所以他的手機是在更之後的時候才弄丟的嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK。再來，我要問一下，依現行規定必須要登錄來辦理管制標籤的註銷，但沒有強制要求國軍人員一定要安裝能夠遠端刪除手機內容的軟體，反觀美國他們的作法，這邊就有寫：「Consider installing security that offers remote location wiping that can……」，就是這句話，他們有一個方式，如果你的手機遺失的話，你有權去把你手機裡面的這些資料全部都清除，那為什麼我們做了這個MDM，但是我們卻沒有相關的作法？"],["鄧次長恩憐：委員好，我是通次室次長，我們所灌的MDM是禁止在營內裡面照相、攝影、熱點開放，以及藍芽功能不能使用，那如果要移除的話，一定要在專門的電腦裡面才能移除MDM的這個裝置。剛剛沈委員在質詢的時候也有講到這一點，就是民用手機是不是可以安裝這個軟體，我們回去以後會研究，如果行的話，我們會來執行。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，再來，你們這個MDM已經被非常多的國軍所詬病，質疑你們怎麼會做出這種10年前的產物。比方在Android的手機跟在iPhone的手機裡面灌了這個MDM之後，當他退伍要把MDM取消的時候，結果完全不一樣，如果是Android的話，資料可以被留下來；如果是iPhone的話，資料會全部被清除，你們知道這件事嗎？"],["鄧次長恩憐：知道。"],["徐委員巧芯：那為什麼要這樣子？"],["鄧次長恩憐：因為這個也是我們委中科院來執行設計MDM的……"],["徐委員巧芯：中科院是不是沒做好？我用iPhone的手機跟我用Android的手機，我都是帶手機進去的，我們都換了MDM了，為什麼用Android手機可以留下他的備份紀錄，iPhone的手機卻要全部消除？"],["程副院長一誠：跟委員報告，我是中科院副院長。以iOS的手機來講，基本上iOS是一個封閉的系統，Android的系統是一個開放式架構，而開放式架構對我們在做設計、安裝、移除或者是monitor這些有一定的程序，所以我們比較能夠可以掌握；但是iOS的話，它所有安裝的軟體要經過Apple公司的認證，所以可能在這個上面確實是有一些困難。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。我再講，你會發現有很多的軍人朋友都告訴你有什麼樣的方式可以逃脫，比方如果你在入營之前就先灌好LINE或是其他軟體，然後再進去灌MDM的話，你原本灌的東西也不會被刪掉，所以這可能才是導致為什麼他有這麼多的LINE。我們看一下圖片，你可以看到，他的LINE裡面，如果是剛剛那兩張照片的話，我並不是很在意，可是他的LINE裡面包含跟比如「度蜜月137」的對話提到：早餐的上尉便當已經放到桌上，或是連長、輔導長好，我們到了衛訓中心報到，然後兵器組的誰、誰、誰。他基本上把我們很多士兵的名字都放在上面，以及長官的聯絡電話全部都放在上面，這有沒有很明顯的國安問題？"],["陳參謀長建義：向委員報告，這些資料我們做過審認，他是沒有……"],["徐委員巧芯：你如何審認的？"],["陳參謀長建義：我們就目前可以看得到的資料來審認。"],["徐委員巧芯：你從哪裡看的？"],["陳參謀長建義：就是網路上公開的，因為這個手機不在我們手上。"],["徐委員巧芯：網路上而已？網路上……對呀，手機不在你手上，網路上只公布一小部分而已呀。這個大陸的網友他只貼了兩、三張圖而已。"],["陳參謀長建義：我跟委員報告一下，我們清查了一下這位士兵，他在4年服義務役的期間所擔任的職務都是所謂沒有接密的，他就是比較基層的一般專長的士兵。"],["徐委員巧芯：雖然是基層的一般專長的士兵，但他的聯絡方式裡面卻填寫了非常多長官的聯絡電話，您知道這件事情嗎？"],["陳參謀長建義：他就是一般在行政工作上的回報，並沒有涉及到機密。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們看下一張，好不好？其實你可以看到，這個是另外一張最新的，這個機主是國軍，他的手機被偷了，資料完全沒有清，國軍13旅的電話裡面有他的後勤跟上級的相關對話，裡面也有很多他自己寫的備忘錄，就是包含他在當兵的時候一些心得、整個過程，後面他也寫到這是班級群。所以我想要問一下，如果這些名單都外漏了，中共可以掌握我們國軍的名冊、名單、還有長官的聯絡電話之後，是不是在發展組織或是刺探情報上面，它有更簡單的方式能夠來做？"],["陳參謀長建義：跟委員報告，基本上在這方面的確是有一個我們需要檢討、精進的部分，也就是說，他的手機在報遺失或者更換的時候，事實上針對他這個群組，我們也律定了相關的管理規範，單位是沒有去落實，把他做退群的動作，如果他退出這個群組，相關的資訊是不應該顯示的。其實我們也從這個案例上面就我們的規定跟執行是否有落實，我們也要持續地去做要求，向委員說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，再來，我要再講一個，這個也是我們的軍人說的。他說在入營之前就要想好要用什麼LINE帳號，想好之後在一開始或第一次收假的時候帶回營區灌MDM，因為是第一週，不管帶了什麼，頂多只是被保管而已，班長也沒空把你怎麼樣，所以如果在第一週的時候就把LINE手機準備好的話，之後就不需要再另外加群組，也不需要另外一支手機，在灌MDM的時候其實就有一個漏洞，你們知道這件事情嗎？"],["鄧次長恩憐：不知道。"],["徐委員巧芯：不知道？"],["鄧次長恩憐：嗯。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個非常清楚，在網路上面都可以查得到，很多人在教學，教國軍要怎麼樣同時讓LINE跟MDM在一起，最簡單的方式就是先灌了我們的軟體之後再去加MDM。"],["鄧次長恩憐：私人的LINE跟MDM是兩件事情，不會有任何的衝突，也不會有影響。我們剛剛講過，灌MDM這件事情是禁止我們的官兵在營內使用照相、攝影、熱點分享及藍芽功能，是限制他們這些功能不能使用，跟他之前灌的LINE群組是不相衝突的。"],["徐委員巧芯：他裡面就講說，基本上你可以先把要……因為他認為如果之後再加群組或放假回報沒有LINE的話會很麻煩，灌MDM的時候，Android手機的話，只要帶傳輸線跟登出裡面的帳號，基本上都可以正常灌，不用重設，甚至Android版本的MDM還可以自己自動上鎖跟解鎖，所以比起要監管的Apple手機，安裝的時間比較快。","最後我要講的意思是，你們在MDM的設計上面，雖然剛剛講可以隱藏一些資訊，但是有幾個缺失：第一個缺失就是其實在網路上已經有很多人嘗試去破解這個東西，而且是成功的；第二件事情就是同樣是手機，在Android跟在Apple裡面，他們最後處理掉的方法是完全不一樣的，這對很多人來說是並不公平的事情；第三件事情是，在手機遺失之後，我們卻沒有任何能力去追蹤他的手機在哪裡，並且把它清除。簡單來說，如果用Apple或是用Android的話，實際上你是可以在他報案之後第一時間就去追蹤他手機的位置、定位點的，但是我們的國軍卻沒有這麼做，所以才發生這次二手機的事件。我想問一下，這4件事情到底是哪裡窒礙難行，導致這樣的情況發生？你們有沒有打算重新去檢討你們的MDM是一個很過時，被很多的基層軍人認為是很沒有用、沒有意義，而且很容易破解，也很不先進的東西？你們有沒有考慮要重新去檢討整個機制？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們下去之後再考慮一下，事實上中科院的MDM版本是一直都有在更新的，我們……"],["徐委員巧芯：但更新了還是很爛，我剛剛講的就是2025年的時候士兵所說的東西，還不夠新嗎？2025年年初的時候大家還在討論這件事情，在這個事件爆發之前大家都就在討論這件事了。"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們下去再研究看看是不是有更好的方式可以……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我想……"],["鄧次長恩憐：功能性要限制他們不能使用，但是有更好的軟體可以……"],["徐委員巧芯：我講一個最簡單的，如果今天我的手機遺失的時候，其實它上面都有追蹤碼，每支手機的型號都有追蹤碼，坦白說，透過我們相關的系統是可以追蹤那個手機現在在哪裡的，如果當下他報案之後，我們立即去追的話，它還會被賣到大陸去嗎？它在臺灣可能就被找到了，為什麼我們沒有做這件事情呢？"],["鄧次長恩憐：因為……"],["徐委員巧芯：這是現行我們的制度就可以做到的東西、現行的科技就可以完成的東西，為什麼我們要等到手機被賣到、流浪到大陸之後被打開了，裡面有很多人的電話、很多個人的隱私資料洩漏之後，我們今天才回頭來討論這件事情？"],["鄧次長恩憐：因為手機是屬於個人的財產、個人自己私人的物品……"],["徐委員巧芯：但他都報案了，他都報案的意思是說，跟你們報案的意思是說……"],["鄧次長恩憐：報案應該是由內政部來調查，由警政單位，不屬於國防部……"],["徐委員巧芯：他報案之後，這是一個國軍使用的手機，所以它的意義不同嘛。"],["鄧次長恩憐：它是個人的手機，不是國軍……它是私人手機。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，它是私人的手機沒錯，但他報案的時候有沒有講他是國軍的身分？沒有？就你們瞭解，沒有講是國軍的身分嗎？他沒有告訴你們是國軍的身分，就直接只是報失而已，那為什麼要報失？一般人的手機不見就算了。"],["陳參謀長建義：他是被偷竊。"],["徐委員巧芯：他被偷竊？被偷竊之後，你們沒有一個準則規定國軍的手機被偷竊之後的SOP要怎麼處理？沒有去做教育？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們公用的公務手機的話，我們有這樣的管制規定，但是對私人的手機，我們就沒有律定要怎麼來執行，因為這是他私人的財產，他的東西掉了，事實上他報案……"],["徐委員巧芯：可是裡面都灌了MDM了，代表這個手機跟你們國軍是有一定的聯繫程度的。"],["鄧次長恩憐：灌MDM的功能是限制他在營區不能做這些事情……"],["徐委員巧芯：我知道，但問題是這個東西裡面，還有很多LINE跟他的群組裡面就已經有很多跟國軍相關的資料，還有可能有各種電話號碼跟他自己在國軍裡面……你知道嗎？他有一個記事本，裡面就寫著他在國軍裡面各式各樣發生的事情，這些東西全部都流到中國大陸去，沒有國安的問題嗎？所以我的意思是，對！這當然是他私人的財產，但當他跟國軍連在一起的時候，他MDM沒有解除，你們會不知道嗎？我問一下，MDM沒有解除這件事情，你們不知道嗎？"],["鄧次長恩憐：一定沒有辦法解除，我剛剛有講過，他MDM一定要在專用的電腦上面才能移除，就是我們退伍前……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們在國軍退役的時候……"],["鄧次長恩憐：會幫他移除。"],["徐委員巧芯：你一併幫他移除，那他私人的手機就不移除了？"],["鄧次長恩憐：會移除。"],["徐委員巧芯：對啊！那你這樣講不就前後矛盾，你不是說他的私人手機也會被移除嗎？"],["鄧次長恩憐：他是被偷竊，他還沒有退伍前就已經遺失了，他不是在退伍後遺失的。"],["徐委員巧芯：那你們就是沒有注意這個漏洞啊！他如果手機掉了就沒有辦法移除MDM，然後你們也沒有去追蹤，你不覺得這中間……我如果是一個中共的間諜，我就專門去偷那些士兵的手機就好了，你沒有發現這裡面有很嚴重的國安問題嗎？如果我知道誰在當兵，我就趁他不注意的時候把他手機偷走，這有很難嗎？他平常也要出來生活，也會放假，我只要掌握這些名單，比方說，剛才他的這些名單上面都是我們現在的國軍，還有長官的聯絡方式，你可能說他的LINE群組裡面有一些人可能是義務役，可是還有長官的聯絡方式，長官一定是志願役，我知道他的名字之後，我就去找一找，我看到他的手機在桌上，我順手牽羊摸走之後，你們也沒有任何辦法可以管，也沒有辦法追蹤，也沒有辦法處理，怎麼會這樣呢？"],["鄧次長恩憐：針對能夠後端移除的問題，我們下去會研究看要怎麼處理。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們需要花多少時間研究？這個事情已經很久了，因為我後來去查，從你們MDM開始做起之後，就有非常多基層士兵在抱怨相關的app做得非常爛，也有很多的漏洞，但是你們都沒有去注意基層軍人的聲音，然後今天引發了這樣的國安問題。所以我想要請問，你們需要多久的時間能夠去把這樣的系統做升級、做重新的管理，來避免這種所謂只要被偷竊了，你的MDM、你所有的資訊就都外洩出去了？今天幸好他是一個義務役、他是退伍的，如果今天是志願役呢？如果他是高層長官，然後遺失了呢？那會發生什麼事？如果是你們三位的手機突然不見了，那會發生什麼事？你有沒有想過？如果顧部長的手機被偷了，那怎麼辦？你們有辦法追蹤嗎？你有辦法解除他手機裡面的內容嗎？那不是我們所有國軍的重要資訊都流出去了嗎？"],["鄧次長恩憐：我們一般不會在私人的手機上面聊公務事情，這也是被限制……"],["徐委員巧芯：你怎麼知道？"],["鄧次長恩憐：因為我們有明文規定……"],["徐委員巧芯：你剛剛都已經講那是私人手機，所以他要用私人手機做什麼，那是他的財產，所以那只是你的假定而已。"],["鍾副部長樹明：委員剛剛指導的四個重點，我們後續研究完精進措施之後，會到委員辦公室做說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個一定要精進研究，是因為今天剛好他是義務役，如果是在場你們幾位的手機被偷竊的話，後續對我們國安的影響是非常、非常、非常大的，因為你們沒有追蹤的機會，你們沒有辦法清空他的資訊，然後你們認為那是他的私人財產，所以你沒有辦法去動他，所以今天幸好是一個小小的義務役，如果今天是我們的志願役，甚至是高層，不好意思，我們的國安漏洞可大了！所以請我們的國軍一定要重視這件事情，儘速改善，謝謝。"],["鍾副部長樹明：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：謝謝徐巧芯委員的發言。請國防部針對未及答復委員的部分以書面回復，好不好？"],["鍾副部長樹明：是。"],["主席：宣告現在休息5分鐘，5分鐘之後繼續詢答。","休息（10時59分）","繼續開會（11時4分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請黃國昌委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":120,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-2","speakers":["黃仁","羅美玲","陳冠廷","林楚茵","陳永康","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","馬文君","徐巧芯","黃國昌","邱志偉","林憶君","王定宇","羅智強"],"page_start":83,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長報告「國機國造交機進度及勇鷹高教機失事後檢修情況」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00002"}}},{"id":"159100","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159100","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b972b8f6f00770f38f0bcb40e4063700aae3c1a04a00b1bf83dc853112caf45a8baa82c9fec78875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:44:15 - 10:58:07","影片長度":"00:13:52","會議時間":"2025-03-13T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【如遇加開院會本次會議取消，不再另行通知】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-13","start_time":"2025-03-13T10:44:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-13T10:58:07+08:00","duration":832,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":2,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-2"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.21971875,"end":9.582218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.37034375,"end":16.011593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.43346875,"end":17.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.96909375,"end":18.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.15471875,"end":44.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.47971875,"end":45.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.25596875,"end":59.61659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.44346875,"end":67.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.90659375,"end":67.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.88534375,"end":72.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.66096875000001,"end":81.75659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.14471875000001,"end":97.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.41659375,"end":103.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.81221875,"end":127.92659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.29596875,"end":113.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.71346875,"end":115.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.92659375000001,"end":171.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.78096875,"end":142.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.14721875,"end":147.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.28284375,"end":174.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.77159375000002,"end":176.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.39159375,"end":191.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.57909375,"end":192.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.35534375,"end":203.39159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.84721875000002,"end":219.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.94596875000002,"end":238.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.23846875,"end":238.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.13284375,"end":242.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.08159375000002,"end":261.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.09971875,"end":263.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.83784375,"end":278.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.35034375000004,"end":303.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.08471875000004,"end":317.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.28096875,"end":320.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":320.79096875000005,"end":328.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.17784375,"end":334.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":334.45971875000004,"end":355.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.72659375,"end":354.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.01346875,"end":355.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.75596875,"end":366.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.01159375000003,"end":369.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.32346875,"end":372.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.71971875,"end":377.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.16596875000005,"end":389.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":383.66721875,"end":387.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.10534375000003,"end":395.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.97346875000005,"end":395.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.14221875000004,"end":395.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":395.81721875000005,"end":421.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":422.36159375000005,"end":426.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.42846875000004,"end":426.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.47909375,"end":432.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.45284375000006,"end":470.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":469.13909375000003,"end":501.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.35346875000005,"end":501.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.50534375,"end":501.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":501.77534375000005,"end":501.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.80909375000005,"end":501.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":501.85971875,"end":501.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.91034375000004,"end":503.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":502.02846875000006,"end":502.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.01971875000004,"end":506.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":506.53409375,"end":509.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.01471875000004,"end":509.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":509.31846875,"end":514.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":514.9040937500001,"end":544.8740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.15659375,"end":550.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.08846875,"end":576.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":574.18596875,"end":574.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.6328437500001,"end":576.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":576.66659375,"end":589.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.5690937500001,"end":579.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.22159375,"end":589.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.49159375,"end":589.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":589.64346875,"end":606.4172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":599.88659375,"end":599.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.93721875,"end":600.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.8603437500001,"end":606.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.4172187500001,"end":638.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":606.5859687500001,"end":606.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":637.19721875,"end":637.3659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":638.12534375,"end":672.8034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":673.2422187500001,"end":678.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":678.92909375,"end":702.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":700.98471875,"end":706.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.1615937500001,"end":703.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":704.4609687500001,"end":716.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":716.07096875,"end":758.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":759.50721875,"end":768.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":768.48471875,"end":778.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":778.77846875,"end":783.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":783.97596875,"end":791.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":792.24471875,"end":805.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":796.91909375,"end":797.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":797.0034687500001,"end":797.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":797.20596875,"end":797.2397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":804.8503437500001,"end":821.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":821.97846875,"end":832.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":827.02409375,"end":827.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":828.0365937500001,"end":830.95596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.281,"end":9.252,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那請問邱部長"},{"start":15.533,"end":44.862,"text":"好 部長辛苦那我相信最近因為我們針對急診室滿床還有護理師離職潮這部分問題我相信我們衛福部應該也是今天很多委員來提出質詢那我們現在面臨這個醫療困境針對急診室滿床還有護理師離職潮這部分我們認為這不外乎就是錢跟人跟政策大概就這三個面向是是是"},{"start":45.322,"end":59.351,"text":"那針對錢的部分我們去年立法院有三讀通過主決議就是承諾健保點值1點達0.95那期限是到今年的6月那時候"},{"start":60.492,"end":79.493,"text":"部長也有針對媒體的訪問說針對這部分部長說有信心能夠做到那目前這部分部長覺得現在的進度怎麼樣跟委員報告一下感謝大會的一個大院的幫忙讓我們在"},{"start":82.296,"end":102.528,"text":"我們還有就是大家的努力之下所以我們今年啦今年114年的健保總額的高推估到達5.5所以增加了500多億然後把一些原來塞在總額裡面的公衛的方面拿出來這個部分我們也補充了100多億特別針對"},{"start":103.949,"end":123.86,"text":"海邊各方面政府也給他額外的公務預算所以總共有700多億所以這個的確增加了700多億這是有史以來最高的所以應該是最有機會來達到0095而且以現在我們大家的努力在今年的第四季預估"},{"start":125.521,"end":134.75,"text":"有很多都已經快要達到0.95%了所以這部分其實我們也是都支持你看今年我們健保總額成長率5.5%就多了531億那實質我們是成長8.13%總共多了"},{"start":142.818,"end":169.049,"text":"712億那今年的健保總值總共達到9400多億所以我們認為說基本上應該難怪部長會說有信心應該我們也是樂觀其成因為這健保點值達到0.95就是希望醫院有更多的資源能夠運用也讓硬體能夠更新最主要就是讓這個人員加薪希望對這部分護理人員的離職潮希望有"},{"start":169.389,"end":173.92,"text":"最正面實質的我們用各種方法來把要給護理人員的就要"},{"start":174.981,"end":202.631,"text":"直接給護理人員對 因為我們希望這健保點子的提升最主要也是希望能夠解決這護理師的離職潮這個我們會公開透明來處理這一塊好 那這是經費的部分問題看起來經費的部分我們也都是支持的嘛是 感謝那針對護理方的部分還有一個就是我們了解到就是心血短缺還有既有人力流失那我們看我們教育部歷年的統計喔"},{"start":204.792,"end":210.317,"text":"從90年 我們護理相關領域 90年報考的有16799人可是到112年 就跌到8500多人 幾乎跌了一半"},{"start":220.346,"end":241.846,"text":"而且這五年我們專技高考護理師的報名人數也明顯降低那不知道這一部分我們衛福部有沒有跟教育部來研討過為什麼這個人數下降的這麼多那衛福部針對這部分有沒有提出一些方案來跟教育部來溝通首先這個數據我想師長來分析一下好了"},{"start":243.217,"end":245.679,"text":"這個數據可能要進一步釐清我們目前大概有40多個這個護理學校在培育護理學生那每年大概是14500到15000之間不過這個有重複真正的新的護理人員是大概是9000每年大概是9000因為有的他念了這個大學畢業 念了博士碩士"},{"start":268.098,"end":270.84,"text":"或是專科再去念二劑那這個是重複計算但是近的話是每年大概有9000個新的護理人力的這個培育這樣子那那個少子化之後其實是慢慢有在下降是"},{"start":284.851,"end":289.934,"text":"是真的是因為少子化的關係整個結構性的那現在對於護理人力的這個投資的這個培育世界衛生組織也一直在倡議就是說自己的國家自己培育自己的護理人力那所以他們是建議說應該要增加8到10%這樣的人力的增加的補充所以目前教育部呢他們給各個學校因為"},{"start":307.803,"end":328.301,"text":"各個學校的那個學生的員額是有核定的每個學校可以培育多少是依照學校的量能來做量的一個控制那現在他們有開放10%的這個員額所以您的意思是說其實他這個人數降低跟少子化有比較大的關係跟我們勞動環境有沒有影響"},{"start":329.381,"end":354.674,"text":"當然也會有影響啊如果說職場環境會影響他要不要投入這一個選擇所以我覺得衛福部應該要檢討一下是不是因為這個職場勞動環境影響到他們來報考從事這個行業的意願所以你看報考人數其實是下降很多當然少子化是一個因素但是我認為他報考的意願應該實質降低很多你看差了幾乎一倍"},{"start":355.794,"end":375.98,"text":"如何讓我們在高中畢業生或是甚至有專科的人更多的人願意來投入這個科系其實我個人覺得非常重要我們現在擔心護理人員大量離職潮要整個提升未來護理專業的尊重"},{"start":378.638,"end":387.569,"text":"對他的一個待遇的提升環境的保護這個都是要做的事情所以我說這部分衛福部要去加強你衛福部加強這個勞動環境才能讓教育部去招生會有更多人來報考當然當然"},{"start":395.959,"end":420.904,"text":"所以我們現在擔心護理人員大量離職潮是台灣醫療體系崩潰的前奏你看我們據我們了解去年11月到今年2月我相信今天也很多委員提出短短的4個月就有754個離職而且剛剛我有聽到也有很多人詢問說他們說護理師去連辦離職手續都要排隊一個多小時"},{"start":422.418,"end":444.392,"text":"那我相信剛剛部長好像針對這部分也有回覆那可能部長也說因為還有其他等等的因素但是我覺得這也是一個警訊每一個醫師或每一個護理師當他去工會辦離職的時候因為我也當過台北市醫師工會理事長只要有人去離職我一定請同仁去了解原因"},{"start":445.513,"end":459.661,"text":"是不是對這個職業不喜歡的或怎麼樣 我想護理師也是一樣 任何一個離職除了他有家庭的因素 真的沒辦法不然我們都會覺得很可惜所以你有提到怎麼樣去右繼黨把他"},{"start":460.501,"end":486.006,"text":"把離職的這一段時間以後又能夠再能夠讓他回來等等的所以我們現在護理師荒嘛你看薪水又短缺而且這個離職潮又這麼大你看短短四個月就700多人離職那而且剛剛我也聽我們委員講其實針對這部分我們次長真的也要檢討一下因為"},{"start":486.966,"end":502.738,"text":"我們第一線的醫療人員就已經很辛苦那在接受訪問在講的時候又用這種冷言冷語我覺得對這個從業人員真的是一個很大的傷害所以這部分部長真的還是要多關切一下我們順序檢討"},{"start":504.27,"end":525.029,"text":"要求所有的同仁請人順行對啊我覺得這還是要多加改進喔那我們針對衛福部喔我們自己部立醫院我們了解到好像部立醫院他本身這個本心啊你看台北台中苗栗算起來他這個本心一個小時像台北"},{"start":525.569,"end":544.503,"text":"大概只有250塊台中244塊苗栗大概238塊而且事實上據我們了解他的時數還是低估正常他這個時數應該每天是超過8個小時所以看起來他這個本薪真的是非常非常的低耶部長"},{"start":546.212,"end":570.309,"text":"這個因為是有關部立 我請執行長回答跟你回報一下那當然我們公立醫院他心思結構就是有本縫專業家子加上獎勵金那我們調查26家部立醫院當然有分成公職跟非公職那公職的部分我們用中位數調查所有的8000多名的護理人員我們的公職是中位數是72000那這個非公職的是52000"},{"start":574.572,"end":595.825,"text":"公職對就是含獎勵金因為我現在講的是本金本薪我講是本薪我當然知道你說其他的什麼家籍什麼等等的部分那我是認為說這個本薪的部分應該也是要檢討一下因為現在就大家就認為說護理師又累工作又雜那造成會缺就是因為"},{"start":597.106,"end":617.2,"text":"他所付出的得不到相當的代價啊那連我們自己部立醫院都帶頭這麼低薪你如果去帶動其他醫院診所的這些護理師的薪水你報告這個薪資的裡面的架構其實都是按照行政院裡面的它裡面的包含它的點包含它的級數都是按照這個部分那當然如果說有這個值得再檢討的我們會在這個部分再來評估檢討"},{"start":620.482,"end":641.841,"text":"最主要還是在於說我們的整個薪資結構是剛剛提到其實還有他的一個獎勵金跟所謂的專業佳績其實再加起來這個他的薪資佳績我剛剛已經報告過所以包含這個公職跟非公職的部分其實我們都努力能夠達到這個一定的這個所謂的合理待遇好 你現在看一下你看我們這有ABC 你看A"},{"start":642.642,"end":657.144,"text":"他每天固定上班8小時好 B他每天上班8個小時輪班C是白班小夜大夜三班輪子而且要輪班工時需要10到12個小時你看他整個"},{"start":657.805,"end":678.078,"text":"再加上他的休假方式A跟B都是固定週休二日C要排休而且沒有固定假日你再看他的薪資結構一個底薪三萬B是三萬二到四萬二C是三萬五到四萬五那請問部長你看看這三個薪資結構如果是你 你會挑哪一個工作"},{"start":678.956,"end":699.31,"text":"我首先當然要跟他談有沒有福利條件如果是第一個譬如說C的話這個是你每個月給我的還是未來有沒有包括年終獎金三節有沒有獎金所以這個要才知道說我雖然可以拿到四萬五其實也不高"},{"start":700.371,"end":715.266,"text":"對啊 這個就是我們現在醫院跟診所還有醫美它的薪資結構你就在苗栗新竹那個地方好了的診所你喊五萬塊也請不到人"},{"start":716.127,"end":739.381,"text":"所以這部分我希望部長我們今天真的是希望針對護理師他們待遇的部分要好好去檢討你看為什麼他不要在醫院都跑到診所都跑到醫美去為什麼這個上班的工作的內容還有工時還有所有的福利根本就不成比例如果我們不去深切針對這些問題檢討"},{"start":741.562,"end":745.447,"text":"這個問題只會繼續惡化下去你看我們從106年醫院職場人數從66.5%下降到63%就減少了3.5%它的降幅是5%而診所的"},{"start":759.986,"end":774.907,"text":"職場人數從13.7成長到16.8就明顯上升所以基本上醫院急診室這些護理師都跑到醫美都跑到診所去那你看他的整個福利的條件工時內容"},{"start":776.188,"end":791.54,"text":"這個我覺得就是很大的問題希望我們衛福部部長針對這部分好好的檢討不然這個問題只會更嚴重我們不只徹底檢討已經在落實我很感謝我們中央健保署的實施長最近非常努力在加重"},{"start":792.621,"end":806.619,"text":"這個是我們主席一直要求的集中症的一個給付幾乎把我們其他今年的其他總額其他以外的其他費用都挪在集中症的補充好希望衛福部的部長這加緊腳步趕快"},{"start":810.042,"end":830.234,"text":"訂定一些良善的制度讓我們基層從業人員有感不然這個問題有更加嚴重到時候這急診室這庸塞的情形我們怕會越來越嚴重到時候這部長真的難以收拾我們全力以赴我們也會跟各醫院團隊大家一起來努力部長跟我們同仁大家加油謝謝謝謝副委員謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":612,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時44分）謝謝主席，請我們邱部長。"],["邱部長泰源：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長辛苦！最近針對急診室滿床，還有護理師離職潮這部分的問題，相信衛福部今天應該也是有很多委員提出質詢。我們現在面臨醫療困境，針對急診室滿床，還有護理師離職潮這部分，我們認為不外乎就是錢跟人跟政策，大概就這三個面向嘛！"],["邱部長泰源：是、是、是。"],["涂委員權吉：針對錢的部分，去年立法院有三讀通過主決議，就是承諾健保點值1點達0.95，期限是到今年6月，那時候部長接受媒體訪問時曾表示，針對這部分，部長說有信心能夠做到，部長，目前這部分的進度如何？"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告一下，感謝大院的幫忙，就是在大家的努力之下，我們今（114）年健保總額的高推估到達5.5%，所以增加了五百多億，然後把一些原來塞在總額裡面的公衛方面拿出來，這個部分我們也補充了一百多億，特別針對罕病各方面，政府也給它額外的公務預算，所以總共有七百多億，這的確增加了七百多億，是有史以來最高的。"],["涂委員權吉：因為今年……"],["邱部長泰源：所以應該是最有機會達到0.95，而且以現在我們大家的努力，在今年的第四季，預估有很多都已經快要達到0.95了。"],["涂委員權吉：所以這部分其實我們也是都支持嘛，你看今年我們健保總額成長率5.5%，就多了531億，實質我們是成長8.13%，總共多了712億，今年的健保總值總共達到九千四百多億，所以我們認為基本上應該……難怪部長會說有信心，我們應該也是樂觀其成啦，因為健保點值達到0.95就是希望醫院有更多的資源能夠運用，也讓硬體能夠更新，最主要就是讓人員加薪，希望對解決護理人員離職潮有最正面、實質的幫助。"],["邱部長泰源：我們用各種方法來把要給護理人員的，就要直接給護理人員。"],["涂委員權吉：對，因為我們希望健保點值提升，最主要也是希望能夠解決護理師的離職潮。"],["邱部長泰源：對，我們會公開、透明來處理這一塊。"],["涂委員權吉：好，這是經費部分的問題，看起來經費的部分我們也都是支持的。"],["邱部長泰源：是，感謝。"],["涂委員權吉：針對護理荒的部分，還有一個就是我們也了解到新血短缺以及既有人力流失，我們看教育部歷年的統計，護理相關領域90年報考的有1萬6,799人，可是到112年就跌到八千五百多人，幾乎跌了一半，而且這5年我們專技高考護理師的報名人數也明顯降低，不知道我們衛福部有沒有跟教育部研討過為什麼這個人數下降這麼多？衛福部針對這部分有沒有提出一些方案來跟教育部溝通？"],["邱部長泰源：這個數據我想請司長來分析一下好了。"],["蔡司長淑鳳：這個數據可能要進一步釐清，我們目前大概有四十多個護理學校在培育護理學生，每年大概是1萬4,500到1萬5,000人之間，不過這個有重複，真正新的護理人員每年大概是9,000人，因為有的是大學畢業念了博士、碩士，或是專科再去念二技，這個是重複計算，但實際每年大概有9,000個新的護理人力的培育，而少子化之後，慢慢有在下降是真的，因為少子化的關係，是整個結構性的。現在對於護理人力的投資、培育，世界衛生組織也一直在倡議自己的國家自己培育自己的護理人力，所以他們是建議應該要有8%到10%這樣人力的增加、補充。因為各個學校學生的員額是教育部核定的，每個學校可以培育多少是依照學校的量能來做量的控制，現在他們有開放10%的員額。"],["涂委員權吉：所以您的意思是說，其實這個人數降低跟少子化有比較大的關係？我們的勞動環境有沒有影響？"],["蔡司長淑鳳：當然也會有影響，如果說職場環境會影響他要不要投入這一個選擇……"],["涂委員權吉：所以我覺得衛福部應該要檢討一下，是不是因為職場勞動環境而影響到他們來報考從事這個行業的意願？所以你看報考人數其實是下降很多，當然少子化是一個因素，但是我認為他報考的意願應該實質降低很多，你看差了幾乎一倍。"],["邱部長泰源：如何讓我們的高中畢業生或者甚至是專科有更多人願意來投入這個科系，其實我個人覺得非常重要。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！我們現在擔心護理人員大量離職潮。"],["邱部長泰源：但是這個要整個提升，當然要提升未來對於護理人員專業的尊重，對他的待遇的提升、環境的保護，這都是要做的事……"],["涂委員權吉：所以我說這部分衛福部要再加強啊！"],["邱部長泰源：讓他在填志願的時候會比較把它往前填。"],["涂委員權吉：衛福部要加強這個勞動環境，才能讓教育部去招生時會有更多人來報考。"],["邱部長泰源：當然、當然。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們現在擔心護理人員大量離職潮是臺灣醫療體系崩潰的前奏。據我們了解，去年11月到今年2月，我相信今天也有很多委員提出，短短4個月就有754個離職，而且剛剛我有聽到，也有很多人詢問，他們說護理師連辦離職手續都要排隊一個多小時，剛剛部長好像針對這部分也有回復。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["涂委員權吉：部長也說可能因為還有其他等等的因素，但是我覺得這也是一個警訊。"],["邱部長泰源：每一個醫師或每一個護理師，當他去公會辦離職的時候，因為我曾擔任過很多職務，我也當過臺北市醫師公會理事長，只要有人去辦離職，我一定會請同仁去了解原因，是不是對這個職業不喜歡或是怎麼樣？我想護理師也是一樣，任何一個人離職，除非他有家庭的因素真的沒辦法，不然我們都會覺得很可惜，所以你有提到怎麼樣在他離職一段時間以後能夠讓他再回來等等，這也都是非常……"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們現在有護理師荒，新血又短缺，而且離職潮又這麼大，你看短短4個月就有七百多人離職，而且剛剛我也聽我們委員講，針對這部分，我們次長真的也要檢討一下，因為我們第一線的醫療人員已經很辛苦了，而接受訪問在講的時候又用這種冷言冷語，我覺得對從業人員真的是一個很大的傷害，所以這部分部長真的還是要多關切一下。"],["邱部長泰源：我們深切檢討，要求所有的同仁謹言慎行。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！我覺得這還是要多加改進。"],["邱部長泰源：是。"],["涂委員權吉：針對衛福部自己的部立醫院，我們了解到部立醫院本身的本薪，你看臺北、臺中、苗栗，算起來本薪時薪的部分，臺北大概只有250塊，臺中244塊，苗栗大概238塊，而且事實上，據我們了解，他的時數還是低估，正常他的時數應該每天是超過八個小時，所以看起來他的本薪真的是非常非常低，部長。"],["邱部長泰源：因為是有關部立醫院，我請執行長回答一下。"],["林執行長慶豐：跟委員回報一下，我們公立醫院的薪資結構就是本俸、專業加給加上獎勵金，我們調查了26家部立醫院，當然有分成公職跟非公職，公職的部分，我們用中位數調查，所有八千多名護理人員，我們公職的中位數是7萬2,000元，非公職是5萬2,000元，就是含獎勵金。"],["涂委員權吉：因為我現在講的是本薪，我講的是本薪，我當然知道你說其他什麼加給、什麼等等的部分，我是認為本薪的部分應該也要檢討一下。"],["林執行長慶豐：是、是。"],["涂委員權吉：因為現在大家就認為護理師又累，工作又雜，之所以會造成缺人的情形，就是因為他所付出的得不到相當的代價，連我們自己部立醫院都帶頭這麼低薪，你如何去帶動其他醫院、診所這些護理師的薪水？"],["林執行長慶豐：委員，跟你報告，薪資裡面的架構其實都是按照行政院的規範，包含他的點、包含他的級數都是按照這個部分，當然如果有值得再檢討的，我們會在這個部分再來評估、檢討，最主要還是在於說我們整個薪資結構，就是剛剛提到的，其實還有他的一個獎勵金跟所謂的專業加給，其實他的薪資加起來，我剛剛已經報告過，所以包含公職跟非公職的部分，其實我們都努力能夠達到所謂一定的合理待遇。"],["涂委員權吉：你現在看一下，這裡有A、B、C，A是每天固定上班8小時，B是每天上班8個小時，輪班；C是白班、小夜、大夜三班輪值，而且要輪班，工時需要10到12個小時；再加上他的休假方式，A跟B都是固定週休二日，C是要排休，而且沒有固定假日；再來看他的薪資結構，一個是底薪3萬元，B是3萬2,000元到4萬2,000元，C是3萬5,000到4萬5,000元，請問部長，你看看這三個薪資結構，如果是你，你會挑哪一個工作？"],["邱部長泰源：首先我當然要跟他談有沒有福利條件，第一個，譬如說C，這個是你每個月給我的？未來有沒有包括年終獎金？三節有沒有獎金？這樣才會知道我雖然可以拿到4萬5,000元，但其實也不高啦！"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！這個就是我們現在醫院跟診所還有醫美的薪資結構。"],["邱部長泰源：跟委員報告，你說在苗栗、新竹那個地方的診所，你喊5萬塊也請不到人。"],["涂委員權吉：所以這部分，部長，我們今天真的希望能夠針對護理師他們待遇的部分好好去檢討。你看，為什麼他不要在醫院，都跑到診所、都跑到醫美去？為什麼？包括上班的工作內容、工時還有所有的福利，根本就不成比例！如果我們不去深切檢討，這個問題只會繼續惡化下去。","你看我們106年醫院的職場人數從66.5%下降到63%，就減少了3.5%，它的降幅是5%，而診所的職場人數是從13.7%成長到16.8%，是明顯上升，所以基本上醫院急診室這些護理師都跑到醫美、都跑到診所去。你看他的整個福利條件、工時、內容，我覺得這就是很大的問題，希望我們衛福部部長能夠針對這部分好好的檢討，不然這個問題只會更嚴重。"],["邱部長泰源：我們不只澈底檢討，也已經在落實，我很感謝我們中央健保署石署長最近非常努力在加重，這個也是我們主席一直要求的，就是急重症的給付，幾乎把我們今年的其他總額，其他以外的其他費用都挪在急重症的部分。"],["涂委員權吉：希望衛福部部長加緊腳步，趕快訂定一些良善的制度，讓我們基層從業人員有感，不然這個問題會更加嚴重，到時候急診室壅塞的情形我們怕會越來越嚴重，到時候部長真的會難以收拾。"],["邱部長泰源：我們全力以赴，也會跟各醫院團隊大家一起來努力。"],["涂委員權吉：部長跟我們同仁大家加油！謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：感謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員、謝謝部長，休息10分鐘。","休息（10時58分）","繼續開會（11時8分）"],["主席（涂委員權吉代）：現在繼續開會。","請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":314,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-2","speakers":["蘇清泉","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","王育敏","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","涂權吉","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","羅智強","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","洪孟楷","張啓楷","劉建國","陳培瑜","楊曜","王義川"],"page_start":227,"meetingDate":["2025-03-13"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第2次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長就「有關全國急重症醫療量能」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142701_00005"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}