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我們有請主委有請主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":15.851,"end":29.132,"text":"張委員好主委好我想請問一下一下因為其實大家今天都在討論有關於半導體的這件事情嘛那其實之前呢總統總統出席外交春宴的時候也有提到說我們要打造一個非紅供應鏈來提升台灣的經濟韌性"},{"start":31.175,"end":45.972,"text":"所以我今天也是要來這邊請教一下主委就是主委在2月15號的時候呢其實在你的臉書上面也提到說半導體今天有這樣子的成就呢其實是半世紀以來我們自己努力辛苦取得的絕對不是輕易取自他國"},{"start":46.853,"end":71.594,"text":"所以呢願意以台灣為基地來協助友善的民主國家來發展晶片設計晶圓製造和封裝測試那剛剛其實主委在對前面的質詢也都有說明這您認為這對我們來說是一個機會對不對是那我想請問一下根據這個機會我們的下一步的發展我們現在有沒有針對這些友善民主國家有一個比較清楚的一個供應鏈的名單呢"},{"start":74.215,"end":96.365,"text":"你說供應鏈就是我們國內的廠商嗎對我跟委員報告我們其實台灣所有的晶片廠商如果將來要發展這個民主供應鏈只要他是台灣設計台灣製造的都是我們的國家隊的隊員那我拜訪了所有的這些台灣重要的這個晶片設計廠商一家一家我都"},{"start":97.529,"end":115.644,"text":"分別跟他們談過每一個廠商其實都非常的樂意跟政府來配合雖然我們的廠商他的這個業務是全世界在佈局的但是其實談到這個對於某些國家他必須要使用這個民主供應鏈的"},{"start":117.465,"end":140.595,"text":"這樣的這個條件的時候我們台灣隊很快的就可以組起來這一點是沒有問題的好我想問一下因為我想大家都比較清楚是台積電他們有說了先進製程還是技術還是留在台灣但是我想大家還是會擔心就是心中的這些您剛講的這些供應鏈他們都覺得非常有興趣但是相關的先進技術還是會以台灣為基地嗎因為我想這是大家最關心的一件事情"},{"start":142.013,"end":168.255,"text":"我們的這個先進製程的半導體晶圓製造的技術研發一定在台灣然後它的這個最先進的製程的量產也一定在台灣先完成以後才有辦法把它擴散到全球因為這個過程需要非常非常多條件這個條件現在全世界只有台灣是最成熟做的效率最高"},{"start":168.595,"end":184.712,"text":"那我了解就像聽起來就是說即便是我們會去有一些供應鏈他們是會跟著一起到以台灣為基地嘛擴散到全世界這些友善的民主國家但我想了解一下就是說那有沒有一個相關的規劃時程呢"},{"start":185.835,"end":200.381,"text":"時程現在還不是很明確這個要看看市場的需求因為如果市場在當地的市場沒有很高的需求我們當然就不會說很快的就要全部都去那邊投資所以這種投資的行為一定是產業界自己決定"},{"start":201.101,"end":220.034,"text":"好 了解 那我想我就再講進入下一個主題就是說聯合國在2025年其實他們每一年都會指定特定的主題跟國際年的一個核心目的主要是在聚焦全球的一些關鍵議題還有凝聚國際的共識並且通過教育 科學以及文化來推動一個跨國的一個永續發展"},{"start":221.155,"end":234.566,"text":"那其實每一年的題目都非常的有趣過去我自己有看到就像什麼植物健康年或是永續發展年用創意的經濟來促進這些文化產業的復甦等等的那您知道說今年的主題是什麼嗎"},{"start":235.984,"end":257.274,"text":"就委員有顯示了這個對已經洩體了那我想問一下我想這個其實是有特別的紀念意義就是2025年的時候其實就是這一位海森堡他其實在1925年的時候就發表了一個矩陣力學成為現在量子力學的第一個完整理論的描述那到現在已經100年了所以今年就決議來做為百年量子啟航的一個歷史傳承跟未來的展望那其實這個裡面有一個重點"},{"start":264.577,"end":289.615,"text":"有三个重点就是说希望可以提升大众对量子科学科技的一个重要性的认知那第二个呢就是加强跨国与跨领域的合作那第三个就是聚焦量子科学对永续发展的应用那其中呢在这个这里面呢他还有讲到这个发展的主题他们其实是希望说可以发展这个再生能源技术还有医疗与药物开发以及金融安全与通讯加密"},{"start":290.376,"end":314.486,"text":"我想就是說針對這三個項目博客會現在可能也有一些相關的研究跟主題的一些計畫但是我在今年的業務報告其實是看不太出來是不是有偏重這幾個項目所以我想請教主委就是針對這一個量子力學年我們有沒有相關的一些計畫可不可以簡單說明一下委員這個問題我可不可以請我們自然事務處處長"},{"start":317.177,"end":338.28,"text":"委員好 今年是量子年 那我們物理界跟物理學門 包括含有物推中心都有辦一系列的活動 總共有七項 包括這個4月12號在這個台北101有個量子點燈的儀式 大概是這樣 這個活動揭開序幕"},{"start":339.127,"end":352.445,"text":"好我想因為我還是蠻想要了解有沒有一些更詳細的一些計畫啦研究的部分但如果時間有限的話我想就到時候提供給我一些詳細的內容好不好好的那還有就是說其實在2022年呢博客會其實也針對了基礎科學促進發展"},{"start":354.507,"end":381.972,"text":"國際年IYBSSD其實辦過相關的活動那時候還特別邀請到了蔡英文總統來請您到現場祝福要來講這個紮根科學永續台灣讓更多的民眾了解科學跟永續發展的密不可分那我想針對這一系列的活動其實在包含今天的報告裡面其實也都有講到就是說我們其實投入了相當多的一些費用那我先等一下"},{"start":384.588,"end":410.836,"text":"我們其實投過了相當多的費用那在世界也取得了不錯的成績到現在其實已經投入了80億那下一步下一步呢就是當我們如何扎根基層就是我們如何把這些研究的實力一磅一磅的傳下去那其實我們有一些科普列車我們也有Kids Science我們也有台灣科技新創基地那我們今年會有相關的活動把這個量子力學放進去嗎"},{"start":411.561,"end":440.493,"text":"好 謝謝委員這樣的建議我們其實在量子國家隊裡面在台大我們有購置IBM的量子運算的設備他們也很努力想要開發一些有關量子運算的科普的基層教育的活動我想也許我們自然處可以來跟台大討論一下看看能不能把這一項加到我們的科普教育裡面"},{"start":440.993,"end":457.189,"text":"好科普教育部分那我想就是科普列車我想爭取一下科普列車啦Kids Science這些其實是對小孩去做這些更基礎的科普的部分是不是也可以一起納入呢有沒有這個機會好在教育的部分我們會努力讓小朋友聽得懂那樣子"},{"start":459.611,"end":475.383,"text":"對 那我想就是這個延續下來就是說作為一個負責任的委員我們剛爭取了活動項目那我也要想要了解這個預算上是不是可以來支持因為其實在今年我們是史上坎福第一的預算案"},{"start":476.124,"end":490.549,"text":"那我就會想要知道那錢到底在哪裡因為其實有很多委員都有爭取一些活動嘛那因為根據組織總署呢其實立法院決議要求636億元由行政院自行調行之那"},{"start":492.293,"end":507.267,"text":"這一切呢其實我不確定說我們現在主委清楚這些對於國會現在的業務國會的部分我們其實非常感謝我們交融會的委員對我們相當的支持我們受到刪減的部分大概"},{"start":509.448,"end":533.128,"text":"29億多啦就是統三 這其實是統三的部分然後我們的業務費受到的影響比較大就是凍結的部分比例比較高包含園區是希望說我們報告送到委員會來送到立法院希望能夠盡快解凍因為很多的這個規劃在年初就要開始"},{"start":533.809,"end":557.182,"text":"好 我了解喔是是對 那我想問一下 因為其實之前您國客會也有發布在11月27號有一個新聞是因應財化法的修法將會有200億元會受到影響認為這個是對於台灣的科技發展非常非常的不利好 那這個部分呢其實再加上我們的預算審查的一個結果我想先請教一個第一個問題是"},{"start":558.923,"end":586.121,"text":"之前我们在询问这个主委的时候其实你有提到说我们希望可以组成一个AI算力国家队我们要把我们的算力达到480 petafloss在2028年那时候会到亚洲前三全球前十AI的准备度也会到全球前十但AI是全球竞争最重要的一个重点项目大家都在冲那依据这个财划法还有如果以今年的立法院的预算删减会不会影响你的目标达成呢"},{"start":587.096,"end":612.279,"text":"我們今年在AI算力建設本來一開始在委員會審查之後其實是有受到一些刪減那我也是極力在辯護啦後來有測案所以也非常感謝我們的委員願意支持國科會的這個說法那目前我們今年的預算如果能夠按照"},{"start":616.121,"end":634.17,"text":"這個決議來執行的話今年我們的算力會受到影響會比較小但是我比較重點就是說因為政府的這一點投入會引起民間也願意再投更多的錢所以我相信今年民間的這個投入遠高於這個政府的投入我們台灣的這個排名應該會往前邁進"},{"start":635.811,"end":658.725,"text":"好像才化法的部分會影響嗎才化法是我比較憂心的因為當初立法院通過的時候是決議好像說馬上要執行我就非常擔心會影響到今年那現在才化法如果明年要執行的話我們現在已經在編明年的預算恐怕我們也沒有辦法按照我們現在預計的可以編列讓我們的科技預算"},{"start":660.286,"end":682.332,"text":"穩定的能夠成長所以我當然也是希望說立法院這邊能夠在財化法修正案能夠有再討論的空間能夠讓我們重要的發展因為科技預算是中央政府在主政很難讓地方分散來執行是非常困難希望能夠維持我們科技預算"},{"start":682.592,"end":706.245,"text":"所以簡單來說啦就是說財化法的部分把錢撥到地方之後可能會影響到我們相關的科技研究還有像是我們AI的這些算力的建設嘛對不對對於我們之前講的這些目標達成是的確存在困難的嘛所以我想這個因為財化法其實已經國民黨跟民眾黨已經否決要復議了啦所以基本上就只能靠大家民眾一起來把我們這些"},{"start":707.766,"end":716.533,"text":"主委把這些影響來告訴我們的民眾 讓大家知道這個對國家的一些影響這些再請主委多多跟大家來做說明 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝張雅玲委員的質詢 主委請回座那待會我們在林益謹委員質詢後 我們休息五分鐘那我們接著繼續質詢 請吳佩儀委員質詢"},{"start":735.387,"end":740.281,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請國科會吳承文主委好 請吳主委備諮詢 謝謝吳委員好"}]}},{"id":"16521","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16521","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd826f2beb725bce95445fc32f41448fc07a524d1b3d409a1ac97419bcd2ff74f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-17","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-17T08:30:16+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T12:50:00+08:00","duration":15584,"影片長度":"04:19:44","委員發言時間":"08:30:16 - 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協助檢視重大計畫加速審議確保目標一 穩健推動區域平衡促進跨部會協助以全面盤點並持續協助各機關合理檢視重大計畫推動期程"},{"start":2171.766,"end":2199.067,"text":"適時協調各機關可行性研究建設計畫相關法規及行政規定所需提送之審查資料所遭遇的跨部會協商課題此外也提醒機關可評估分期分階段巡視啟動計畫有效分擔風險與資源配置促進區域發展之平衡性及可持續性而加速各項審議"},{"start":2200.988,"end":2222.144,"text":"作業,確保目標與規劃契合,為加速計畫協審與基本設計審議,持續檢視各重大建設計畫送審事項,確保內容符合核心理念及定位建造標準,並與當地發展契合,幫助機關充分運用規劃設計團隊之專業等。"},{"start":2225.233,"end":2252.948,"text":"以加速相關審議並確保發展目標且提供應注意事項三 急報急審協助地方復建工程包括統籌各部會辦理審議及早展開地方復建工作行政院會協助地方政府加速辦理公共設施災後復建工程一 中央對地方中央對各級地方政府重大天然災害"},{"start":2254.384,"end":2276.002,"text":"救災經費處理辦法規定 交由本會統籌相關部會辦理縣市政府申請復建經費補助之審議作業 本會採取急報急審方式辦理 並請地方政府考量輕重緩急就具時效性工程先行提報各中央主管機關應急動員前往勘查縮短審議作業時程 第二主動"},{"start":2280.885,"end":2296.843,"text":"提前安排縣勘加速地方工程重建規劃為提供地方政府最大協助將視受災情形嚴重性與影響性本會主動規劃縣地勘察足加速地方政府災害"},{"start":2298.024,"end":2323.577,"text":"復建工程提報程序外並提供復建策略經費需求採購方式等建立與溝通平台確實協助地方政府及早完成復建工程第二配合2050淨零轉型促進公共建設淨零轉型包括推動公共工程節能減碳作為一以推動公共工程定性減碳工程會於111年8月31日發布"},{"start":2328.049,"end":2354.064,"text":"公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項提醒工程主管機關與工程全生命週期納入節能減碳觀念及做法並透過減核方式促使工程計畫落實各階段節能減碳作為降低工程碳排放量第二 建立減碳參考指引與工具有序推動公共工程節能減碳依工程主要列行"},{"start":2354.904,"end":2369.859,"text":"及特性持續推動中央部位訂定減碳座位參考指引持續收集各機關與取得之工程產品減碳排放係數建立碳排基準並完善共同"},{"start":2371.124,"end":2395.776,"text":"供應企業平台增加碳排碳足跡欄位短期由訂約機關與共同供應企業上架時請各品項產品之得標廠商自主性提供碳排數據預計114年上半年上限長期則以本會重建之碳排強度資料庫借鑑有助機關選擇低碳產品"},{"start":2398.081,"end":2419.935,"text":"三強化公共工程管理確保施工品質及安全包括工程查核精準選案精進精質獎規定一工程查核精準選案提升施工品質導入查核精準選案原則一工程施工查核小組追辦法第四條第三項規定以民眾檢舉媒體報導決標"},{"start":2424.21,"end":2443.888,"text":"標價偏低 進度明顯落後大幅變更契約等工程為優先查核對象並針對相關工程2億元以上加強查核另為確保偏遠地區公共工程品質 議會加強查核第二施工品質穩定提升113年1月至12月全國計查核4458件工程"},{"start":2448.732,"end":2469.946,"text":"查核比例為11.91%全國查核成績列甲等以上比例為81.13%較112年度甲等以上比例78.89%提升2.24%整體公共工程施工品質持續穩定提升第二 精進金職獎規定確保施工品質"},{"start":2470.986,"end":2495.317,"text":"為激勵全國公共工程施工團隊並確保施工品質可嚴厲提高金職獎案件查核頻率擴大獎勵得獎廠商採購評選加分之規模集聚範圍並要求量化數據資料以展現參選案件之檢探與立法具體成效第二加速公共建設推動主動協助困難問題"},{"start":2497.031,"end":2516.049,"text":"第一掌握公建計畫執行進度113年度列管公建計畫經費達成率達93%以上113年7月18日修正行政院公共工程委員會公共建設督導匯報設置及作業要點就年計畫經費達1億元以上且"},{"start":2519.969,"end":2532.018,"text":"且據工程內涵之公共建設計畫納入督導匯報列管列管之內容包含一般公共建設計畫以及前瞻基礎建設公共建設類計畫列管經費約6,325億元結設113年12月底經費達成率93.81%而加速工建推動持續督導管控本會盤點114年度列管計畫共計323項"},{"start":2548.59,"end":2564.904,"text":"立管經費約七千四百七十三億元其中包含一般公共建設計畫以及前三基礎建設公共建設列計畫將以督導匯報持續管控要求各部會確實以核定里程碑辦理第二加強主動"},{"start":2566.645,"end":2588.086,"text":"協助困難問題 每月召開督導會報依全生命週期部會計畫工程標案足及管控並每月召開公共建設督導會報協調解決跨部會問題並不定期由主委副主委率隊實地查訪即時發現問題解決問題第二 限地查訪提供建立113年度已辦理36次計畫查訪"},{"start":2591.519,"end":2618.353,"text":"例如淘機第三航站區淘機第三跑道淡江大橋及其聯絡道路離島地區供水改善計畫第二期第三座液化天然氣接收站投資計畫等採走動勢管理模式及時提供建立協助解決問題另114年以排列三頁查訪第三座液化天然氣接收站投資計畫及大潭電廠增建燃氣副循環機組發電計畫"},{"start":2621.354,"end":2636.162,"text":"了解整體計畫執行狀況及確保國內整體供氣穩定及安全事業查訪台中市福田水資源中心放流水回收再利用統包工程含營運維護掌握再生水供應工業區"},{"start":2637.743,"end":2657.198,"text":"補充產業用水缺口及穩定產業發展情形第三加速停工終解約工程復工或重新發包以強化公共工程標案停工解約之管理機制就進度落後停工解約案件每月通報主管機關加強管控並針對"},{"start":2658.96,"end":2669.941,"text":"為執行金額較大之案件定期召開會議協助排除困難113年截至10月底具有2168件工程復工或重新發包"},{"start":2671.292,"end":2695.62,"text":"使代執行金額668.5億元重新投入市場活絡經濟近期於114年2月18日召開協處32案是督促機關依約加速付款113年度截至12月底由廠商主動通報金本會列管案件32件其中以付款結案31件"},{"start":2697.361,"end":2721.654,"text":"金額1.93億元主動篩選案件已有151件完成付款付款金額12.66億元第三促使廠商重視公共工程職安作為一與勞動檢查機構建立橫向聯繫機制施工查核結果涉及工地職安有重大缺失者由工程施工查核小組通知當地所屬勞動檢查機構作為勞動檢查之重點對象"},{"start":2725.296,"end":2747.816,"text":"以避免職安缺失重複發生二加強查核有墜落風險案件運用本會公共工程雲端服務網之廠商履歷功能篩選具有墜落之餘或勞動檢查有墜落嚴重缺失之施工廠商或監照單位工程案件辦理查核第三職業安全納入金職獎推薦基準與評審標準"},{"start":2750.498,"end":2774.246,"text":"金職獎嚴審推薦參選案件之職業安全辦理情形如有發生死亡、職災或離災住院人數達3人以上不得推薦或因與扣分令你得獎工程完工前或設施維護完成前發生死亡、職災將取消該屆金職獎之優惠且次屆不得推薦參加金職獎"},{"start":2776.067,"end":2791.638,"text":"第四 持續辦理職安教育訓練提升工程相關從業人員對職安危害之預防觀念每年針對初任工職人員土木工程列科辦理教育訓練邀請勞動部講授職安相關法規"},{"start":2795.301,"end":2809.263,"text":"觀念案例等強化課題114年度亦持續辦理第四 嚴體政府採購法修正草案 精進政府採購制度一推動採購法修正草案及契約範本條款合理化"},{"start":2810.37,"end":2829.741,"text":"第一 嚴體採購法修正查案 徵求各界意見 為精進政府採購之執行 提升採購效力113年9月4日 含送精進政府採購法之意見徵詢表 致各機關廣泛收集意見以完成彙整各界意見 擬計採購法修正查案 預計114年4月辦理預告作業"},{"start":2834.764,"end":2840.348,"text":"第二修正各類採購企業範本帶動企業加薪113年12月26日修正各類採購企業範本將派駐勞工及全職從事採購人員資薪資調升為因高於最低工資1.1倍透過範本"},{"start":2855.437,"end":2871.87,"text":"調整帶動企業加薪促使廠商主動提高勞工薪資第二優化履歷制度挑選優良廠商建立施工廠商履歷強化管理與監督持續收集"},{"start":2872.691,"end":2899.397,"text":"分析各機關執行公共工程資料建置完整公共工程廠商履歷內容涵蓋承攬紀錄施工品質重大職災及受停權紀錄等目前已累積超過1.4萬家施工廠商履歷並開放機關查詢應用以促使廠商提升自主管理確保公共工程品質第二 擴大履歷制度納入工程"},{"start":2900.497,"end":2925.196,"text":"參與人員建立公共工程參與人員履歷將履歷制度進一步延伸到工程參與人員載有其參與紀錄施工品質重大職責及懲戒紀錄等目前已累計超過16萬筆資料並開放機關查詢希望藉此提升人員專業度與責任意識確保施工品質與安全三 應用履歷資料"},{"start":2926.237,"end":2954.025,"text":"以立機關選拔優良廠商與人員為提高履歷資料應用價值於111年8月18日發布公共工程施工廠商及人員履歷應用於政府採購作業參考手冊提供具體範例協助各機關在採購選商履歷管理及施工差額時更有效篩選優良廠商與工程人員確保公共工程品質與效能"},{"start":2954.625,"end":2963.911,"text":"第三加速推動電子化政府採購政府採購公告電子化落實採購公開及透明依採購法規定機關辦理採購招標之相關公告應公開於政府電子採購法113年度公告機關招標決標資訊45.4萬餘筆落實採購公開透明第二推動電子領標減省廠商領標成本"},{"start":2984.473,"end":2990.041,"text":"113年機關提供電子招標文件之案件計23.7萬餘件電子領標比例達99.68%減輕廠商往返機關領標之人力與時間成本將持續"},{"start":2999.614,"end":3017.948,"text":"朝全面電子化邁進三 加速推動電子投標增進採購效力為令廠商熟悉電子投標之作業先就資格及規格單純之未達公告金額財務採購持續推動簡易電子報價機制後續擴大試用工程採購並每年訂定目標達成力"},{"start":3027.108,"end":3036.112,"text":"113年度財務及工程採購諮詢率分別為57.4%及25.2%均達目標值50%及12%將持續強化電子投標之便利性及信賴度增進採購效力第五強化諮詢機制提升政府採購爭議處理效力一強化採購諮詢化解契約條款認知歧義"},{"start":3055.48,"end":3071.292,"text":"機關與廠商於採購執行過程堂有採購法執行疑義或對採購契約有認知其意案情單純或有前例者本會即使以書面方式提供意見案情交付長須召開會議協處者截至114年1月底以召開諮詢會議協處案件計126件約七成三採納本會之意見與雙方續行協議第二"},{"start":3083.421,"end":3110.663,"text":"調解案件處理效能再提升持續管控理業正義調解案件辦理情形落實採購契約修正或集合監督回饋機制且透過精進調解案件處理作業流程以加速案件之處理以提升處理效率充分發揮調解功能109年到113年本會調解成立率約八成"},{"start":3112.031,"end":3132.924,"text":"三 公共工程建設與民眾福祉密切相關並且是國家經濟發展的核心動力本會始終致力於協助各機關解決在公共工程推動過程中遇到的困難與障礙確保公共工程順利進行品質持續提升"},{"start":3133.784,"end":3160.026,"text":"並加速推進區域平衡發展這一目標一直是本會不懈追求的方向儘管面臨各種挑戰與考驗本會依然保持謹慎與堅定持續國家利益與民眾福祉為根本持續與相關部會密切合作推動公共建設的進行轉型並致力於維護人本優質永續的生活環境我們將全力以赴"},{"start":3160.746,"end":3183.299,"text":"加速公共建設的推動以國家經濟發展注入持續動能 以上報告敬請主席及各位委員指教 謝謝好 謝謝我們主委好 接下來我來補充介紹我們本會的委員我們陳雪生委員我們洪孟楷委員"},{"start":3185.575,"end":3205.732,"text":"好 現在我們進行議事錄的確定因為剛才那個議事人員已經朗讀完畢請問各位委員對議事錄有沒有意見沒有好 沒有意見我們的議事錄就確定好 現在我們進行詢問先告以上事項"},{"start":3208.827,"end":3234.255,"text":"1 巡打時間出席委員6加2分鐘內席委員4加1分鐘委員花園登記在10點30分截止各位委員如有臨時提案請於10點鐘以前提出以便我們議事人員會診"},{"start":3237.905,"end":3252.956,"text":"4暫停10點30分休息10分鐘5中午原則性不休息現在請登記第一號的洪孟凱委員現在進行審打主席謝謝麻煩請我們陳主委好來陳主委"},{"start":3267.274,"end":3291.398,"text":"委員長 主委好 主委本席剛剛您聽您的這個書面報告那本席也一直強調就是說我們一起努力為台灣的公共工程品質來把關更重要是我們要好好的督促我們的公共工程嘛 這你同意嗎那所以說公共工程重點在於是用專業數據來說話不要有任何模糊的數字 你也同意嗎"},{"start":3292.706,"end":3307.367,"text":"好來麥克風可以打開好不好沒錯好那本席有看到因為昨天有這個公共工程產業在媒體刊登半版的聯合聲明要求說儘速解凍工程會的預算那本席想要知道"},{"start":3308.268,"end":3334.025,"text":"主委事先知情嗎是一個廣告我們跟工程產業工會互動密切所以你事先知道我們事先知道有溝通過嗎有說明過嗎因為它裡面的重點是說儘速解凍工程會的預算不能沒有金質獎本席先強調我的核心立場我也認為金質獎很重要一定要辦非辦不可"},{"start":3334.705,"end":3349.361,"text":"COVID-19的時候我們都沒有延誤辦理金職獎了金職獎是國家重大建設發展當然要辦但儘速解凍工程會預算主委請教你解凍案送來立法院了嗎"},{"start":3350.359,"end":3365.072,"text":"解動換我們要執行預算30%以後那目前執行到什麼程度了目前還沒有到30%還沒有到30%所以你還沒有執行到30%你也沒有辦法送進來那沒有辦法送進來我們要怎麼解我們是"},{"start":3365.672,"end":3390.069,"text":"我們判斷這種解凍方式因為我們是凍結50%的業務費嘛然後必須院會解凍同意時的凍資這個是遙遙無期但是你要先送進來委員會其實沒有遙遙無期啊主委本席剛剛開宗明義就強調不要似是而非講清楚來我先請教去年度公共工程委員會總預算有多少錢"},{"start":3391.369,"end":3406.921,"text":"將近四億五千萬左右四億九千萬你少了四千萬今年我們核定的預算總共有多少錢它五億五左右五億五多增加了多少費用五千萬是包括人事費還有多增加了多少費用"},{"start":3407.401,"end":3434.677,"text":"五千萬這個包括公共工程委員會今年核定的預算比去年多增加了五千萬整體經濟增加嘛這是主委剛剛所說明多五千萬這是必然的必然的這也是經過委員會審議經過立法院我們同意所以說立法部門行政部門我們共同認為說台灣經濟發展所以我們有增加工程會五千萬的預算立法部門並未同意"},{"start":3435.177,"end":3460.062,"text":"有啊如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會最後通過我先解凍50%諸位你這樣子就似是而非了如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會到最後通過預算還沒有同意使用預算是不是立法部門到最後通過的通過裡面凍結1億啊凍結50%啊凍三減的1000多萬啊但你現在你現在執行的數目是怎麼樣你現在執行都還沒有到超過30%啊所以其實諸位"},{"start":3462.662,"end":3481.551,"text":"不用似是而非我們就事論事本席從過去到現在就一直強調其實公共工程非常重要而今年的預算比去年已經多成長了五千萬還有更重要的是到目前為止工程會還沒有送進解凍案我們怎麼樣來討論"},{"start":3482.771,"end":3507.473,"text":"我想交通委員會的委員一定會本職專業如果說你真的送進來說明清楚的話該解凍我們一定會解凍但重點是你什麼時候要送解凍案進來報告委員什麼時候可以送解凍案大院的主決議是院會同意時的動之並不是交通委員會來審理委員會審查完畢之後送院會院會也會尊重委員會的意見嗎這個從來未有過的"},{"start":3508.814,"end":3525.166,"text":"但是重點在於是你什麼時候要送進來這個立法院從來沒有做這樣的主委什麼時候要送進來我們你什麼時候認為送進來還是現在民進黨要搞下鄉要搞這些宣傳所以說就是明明應該是行政部門要送進來的你現在就不送"},{"start":3526.624,"end":3555.052,"text":"什麼時候能夠送進來我們會依大院的規定送進來什麼時候可以送進來我們依大院的規定如果說你沒有送我們怎麼解你沒有同意動資預算我們怎麼辦金職獎你現在要解凍然後你現在又跟我講說我們要同意但你又不送解凍案我們要怎麼同意金職獎現在是要接受報名的我們要怎麼同意很多工作都在進行實際上還在進行本來延續性的計畫預算法裡面就規定很清楚主委"},{"start":3555.984,"end":3568.963,"text":"不要是是而非啊預算法本來就規定的非常清楚延續性的計畫本來就可以來做一個使用但重點是你們什麼時候要把解凍案的方案送進來"},{"start":3570.305,"end":3597.967,"text":"主委告訴國人你們什麼時候要送我們才能夠討論如果委員給我們一個明確的答案什麼時候能夠同意我們使用我們就決定辦或不辦主委這個就是你似是而非你連送進來的說明都沒有然後你就跟我們講說要立法部門開空白支票同意根本荒謬啊我們為什麼相關的計畫預算有些會凍結我想之前很多委員不管藍綠啊我們現在召委"},{"start":3600.031,"end":3620.56,"text":"李昆哲委員他也有凍結過預算啊但是他會要求行政部門提出相關的說明之後可以解凍我們就解凍但重點是你現在連說明都沒有說明出來你就跟我們講是說一定要立法院先同意我才要送根本荒謬根本凌駕立法委員的質詢權凌駕立法委員的審查權主委"},{"start":3625.236,"end":3639.209,"text":"法定國家行政機關有可以那麼的傲慢嗎所以主委能不能說明清楚你們什麼時候要送相關的計畫有沒有辦法說明清楚有沒有辦法說明清楚"},{"start":3644.949,"end":3671.541,"text":"程序上的解凍主委你不能反指許但重點是委員會會有本來就有合理的解凍的程序你不用在那邊事事而非目無焦點現在就是國人大家看得清清楚楚工程委員會的主委沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你什麼時候要送解凍案你如果說沒有送解凍案的話我們何來可以審查這就是工程會主委的態度對吧"},{"start":3674.164,"end":3687.069,"text":"我們依法會受解凍本席非常的遺憾我覺得說到目前為止你還是沒有辦法針對問題回答問題沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你們到底要怎麼做能夠送入這個說明"},{"start":3688.675,"end":3710.231,"text":"行政官員每一位其實下面都在偷笑因為看到聽到主委那麼的沒有這個行政的一個邏輯跟觀念你連最基本的要送入立法院來申請解凍都沒有辦法都沒有辦法承諾的時候然後你現在一直在鬼打牆講說你們什麼時候要同意你們先同意我們再送荒謬荒謬"},{"start":3711.843,"end":3735.676,"text":"這就像是跟老師講說老師你先給我歐帕 歐帕了我才要考試你承諾歐帕我才要考試莫名其妙 主委我再請教 去年你有說要現實的政府採購法規定公開招標要三家以上的合格廠商才能夠開標但是現在想要修法刪除三家的廠商門檻"},{"start":3737.404,"end":3762.891,"text":"這個是我們收集各界的意見準備4月辦理預告預告所以4月會出爐4月會辦理預告那預告之後呢預告之後送行政院會審查審查通過報大院來整理那有沒有討論因為過去其實大家有在講說過猶不及有一些部分是說如果說有三家的這個門檻當然可能會造成說公開招標的一個進度上的拖延"},{"start":3763.171,"end":3783,"text":"但另外一個部分如果說解除了這樣的一個門檻未來只要一家就能夠開標會不會有產生其他的弊端有沒有想過如何來做相關的配搭這個各界意見反映很多所以我們中禮之後會來預告再聽取各界意見到時候大院審理的時候可以來所以有防弊機制"},{"start":3783.9,"end":3792.852,"text":"不是 這個我們會再聽取各界意見當中是 你聽取各界意見 但你們不是要先預告嗎4月要預告的部分 你們的房地機制有沒有預想在裡面"},{"start":3793.967,"end":3814.082,"text":"現在的採購方式跟過去不是電子化的時代差很多啦所以資訊完全公開透明所以我們聽取各界意見之後認為如果維持三家才能夠開標的話往往是造成流標的主要原因所以未來會只要一標一家投標就可以公開照標這是我們準備預告的草案內容"},{"start":3814.682,"end":3837.502,"text":"好 那防幣機制在裡面有沒有設計相關防幣機制在草案裡面會有好 草案裡面會有本席等著看我們四月的公告那本席也會討論因為這還是一樣重點在於是提升政府行政效能裡面我們要思考到防幣的機制所以說剛剛主委既然已經提到說有所謂防幣機制我們期待工程會提出來的版本最後"},{"start":3838.544,"end":3855.833,"text":"我再確認一下因為本席非常關心氣候變遷因應法所謂2050淨零碳排那其中工程會非常重要的一個部分就是有所謂的減碳作業指引那主委也講說減碳作業參考指引會預計在今年出爐請教什麼時候會出爐"},{"start":3857.254,"end":3879.414,"text":"114年年底今年年底到目前目前都已經有在做執行了持續在收集資料當中好 持續在收集資料當中所以這個指引本席也要提出因為過去工程會在2022年就已經有發布公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項要求我們各機關訂立節能減碳的減核機制跟目標"},{"start":3880.815,"end":3902.787,"text":"請教2022年到現在提出來哪些部門有達標哪些部門還有改進的空間這個不是標準我們持續在進進當中將來會改成我們收集相關的這個排蛋係數那麼建立一個完整的計算碳的一個這個系統然後提供給各機關在設計的時候參考"},{"start":3904.688,"end":3912.524,"text":"過去要機關來填寫這個碳排的接落部分這個政策我們在逐步在調整當中"},{"start":3914.16,"end":3942.025,"text":"那但是本席我們會改成收集係數你還是沒有回答本席的問題啊 主委本席問的是說2022年我們工程會議既然我是可以肯定的喔不管是那個時候你還不是主委那時候是吳主委嘛吳主委在的時候本席也跟他就教過因為淨零碳排本席非常重視尤其是零碳建築所以當時有提出來這個注意事項的時候我們也認為說不要一步馬上要求各部門到位但至少我們了解一下各部門在"},{"start":3943.565,"end":3968.416,"text":"從2022年開始到現在2025年過去兩年的時間裡面哪一些部門比較做得好哪些部門還有加強的空間我們有沒有去做了解不能用這個標準這工程會提出來的然後你跟我講說不能用這個標準檢核注意事項是一個定性提醒機關說你辦理公共工程設計的時候要注意到檢探的相關作為哪些部門有做到哪些部門沒做到"},{"start":3969.276,"end":3990.139,"text":"有沒有去了解因為不是強制性的因為不是強制性嘛是嘛所以主委你講出大白話了嘛第一2022年那時候提出來是工程會自己提出來的那沒有強制性也因此我們就不了解說到底哪個部門真的有比較符合這個標準哪些部門沒有因為工程會也沒有去做管考核"},{"start":3991.42,"end":4012.054,"text":"那現在你要再做一個檢探作業參考指引會不會有一個標準檢探的部分各機關他有自己會不會有一個標準會不會又變成沒有強制性你今年年底出來的會不會又是另外一個利益很良善但是沒有強制性的標準工程會的目的是要"},{"start":4012.774,"end":4036.219,"text":"建立一個比較完整的這個減碳的所有工程的排放係數那這個排放係數是包括工程單項它每個單項排碳多少給各機關去參考您把工程會看小了 做小了工程會絕對不是只是提出一個標準給各機關參考是國家重大工程的主管機關"},{"start":4038.464,"end":4059.014,"text":"主委 本席提出來是對於我們工程會有非常高的期待我們也希望減碳的主管機關重點在於是你是國家重大工程的主管機關能不能用國家重大工程來符合減碳的標準這才是重點主委"},{"start":4060.063,"end":4087.242,"text":"本席是在野黨的委員但我絕對不是說跟你站在對立面我們一起督促是要讓國家的重大工程更好請聽本席一句話本席過去就強調如果我們現在要2050淨零碳排往前回推現在只剩25年其中零碳建築是一個很重要的參考指標我之前就提過能不能說從現在開始要求至少公部門先行"},{"start":4088.503,"end":4115.063,"text":"國家的工部門的建設從現在開始就用零碳的建築標準來去做帶領私部門如果說我們連自己工部門編列預算的建築都沒有辦法達到零碳建築我們怎麼有辦法期待私部門私人的企業私人的建築來做零碳建築所以這一些部分才是我們希望工程會能夠跳出來當領頭羊的部分我可以說明嗎每一個工程有他的目標"},{"start":4116.044,"end":4144.092,"text":"包括結構安全包括方便性等等減碳是其中之一所以各部門的設計是一個最適設計達到一個最好的目標減碳跟安全跟什麼是不衝突的不會因為減碳所以說犧牲安全不會因為減碳而犧牲相關的一個目標如果主委你還停留在過去20年前這種思維的話那我真的很擔憂我真的非常非常的擔憂結果不同"},{"start":4145.692,"end":4168.152,"text":"所以你要選擇鋼構有選擇鋼構的理由那我跟委員報告選擇鋼構你也可以用零碳建築的方向任何事情都會有排碳沒有零碳建築可以用各種的政策目標手段2014年英國就已經宣布他們接下來2014年之後的國家重大公共工程都是用零碳建築"},{"start":4169.012,"end":4189.028,"text":"別的國家做得到你現在2025年 十多年之後你跟我們講說沒辦法要不要請教一下環境部我們現在在呼吸就在排碳了所以不會有零碳建築這件事情主委 這樣子你完全忽略跟羅國公不了解零碳建築的定義沒有零碳這件事情我們呼吸都在排碳"},{"start":4190.907,"end":4218.462,"text":"主委怎麼會有零碳建築這件事情沒關係這個是公共工程委員會的主委所定立的方向請各位媒體朋友記得主委這一句話如果說連我們國家重大公共工程的主管機關都跟世界趨勢背道而馳的話那這就是民進黨政府的態度這就是現在環境部要定出來如果說連公共工程委員會都講說這個是沒有這件事情的話那代表國家從頭到尾都在騙人"},{"start":4219.142,"end":4235.568,"text":"國家要這樣騙人嗎你要用這樣子的一個話術主委本席很務實的很專業的很理性的要來跟你做討論但是你用這樣的一個方向其實凸顯的就是你對於本身的公共工程掌握的真的不夠透徹"},{"start":4237.064,"end":4251.669,"text":"我非常遺憾 謝謝跟大會報告一下我是代理召委那我們也尊重這個相關的議事的程序每位委員是6加2分鐘"},{"start":4253.86,"end":4282.177,"text":"其實另外加時的時間其實已經超過6分鐘其實已經再加8分鐘了那我們都開飯店不怕人家吃飯但它終究是有營業時間超過營業時間我們很難再招待下去主委未來備詢官員好好針對問題回答問題我都雙方都尊重我雙方都尊重謝謝現在請林國成召委發言"},{"start":4289.475,"end":4310.121,"text":"主席請我們陳主委請陳主委委員長好主委其實這會期我當召委我說實在啦我們要往前走因為我們"},{"start":4311.89,"end":4334.271,"text":"執政是四年所以針對問題我還是真的給主委一個非常尊敬的建議就是針對問題我們來解決問題當然立法委員有他的見解我們習耳恭聽帶回去我們去做一個研究但是我說實在連我本席"},{"start":4334.791,"end":4358.228,"text":"以我對交通委員會所有委員的感覺不分黨派是針對問題解決問題我相信主委也審查預算過你也是老立法委員那大家都了解立法院其實是對事不是對人所以這點我給主委一個建議來"},{"start":4360.458,"end":4385.325,"text":"另外大家主委你很知道不管是吳主委或你我都非常重視員工的薪資問題這個我們已經有處理但是在這裡我還是要跟主委建議就是因為當然這是行政院裡面訂定的公共工程最低工資不能低於1.1倍這個問題"},{"start":4387.301,"end":4401.767,"text":"但是那個時代轉變不一樣這個薪資如果你一點一倍這個是最低標準最低要求啦但是我一向主張我也一向非常尊重我們公共工程委員會"},{"start":4403.069,"end":4422.005,"text":"不要我同意剛才孟愷所講公共工程委員會不能做小應該他有很多的技術面很多的政策面都是要我們公共工程委員會來制定所以這個一點一倍我建議主委"},{"start":4422.665,"end":4439.418,"text":"研擬一下跟兩位副主委兩位副主委都寫法例的研擬一下有沒有可能把他提升因為這個薪資如果照這樣去算起來是太低的這個我是給主委一個"},{"start":4440.986,"end":4463.285,"text":"這個良心的建議因為這個薪資低說實在也是非常困難去突破唯一只有我們公共工程委員會統一制定它的低標準把它拉高自然薪資就會拉高所以這個我要良心的建議我們主委在這個部分"},{"start":4464.586,"end":4481.403,"text":"認真去考慮一下還有一點就是你都用鼓勵加分的方式啦其實自動置花的這些雇主啊或公共工程的這些廠商啊他不會用加分他就可以得到是要用"},{"start":4482.384,"end":4510.091,"text":"公共工程委員會的硬性規定讓他把低薪把他拉高這個對公共工程所屬的勞工啊是有幫助的這一點我這點我特別跟主委啊建議啊這個部分要較為認真的去思考那當然也要顧慮到其他的法規啦那但是有很多法規在主委可以"},{"start":4510.931,"end":4526.939,"text":"研擬的當中資方也可以接受然後勞方這裡也覺得你照顧那另外政府也覺得這個部分是有必要去做因為我在想"},{"start":4527.839,"end":4550.694,"text":"民進黨執政已經九年他對於勞工的權益跟勞工的薪資非常在意的這我知道是非常在意這點對就對不對就不對他確實對於基本薪資的調整確實是蠻重視的這個問題所以我要拜託陳主委在這個部分我還是請你"},{"start":4552.055,"end":4575.983,"text":"責成你的兩位副主委我們來研究一下有沒有可能1.1把它拉到1.5以上這樣的話可能它的低薪的問題自然就會拉高因為你的最低標準是這樣嘛但是你把最低標準把它拉高以後自然而然調薪的機率就會大增這點我要拜託我們工程會這裡啊"},{"start":4576.983,"end":4582.47,"text":"要幫全國廣大的勞工去做這些事那吉利來下一張"},{"start":4584.025,"end":4612.919,"text":"像這些像這些什麼應安會的調查員啊 蘇發部的工程員啊氣象這些分析 我說實在你訂那個薪資是太低了太低了因為他的專業專業是不一樣的所以你一概而論去對這些人是不公平的這個我是就事論事啊 特別給主委做一個建議那另外"},{"start":4614.195,"end":4631.115,"text":"我也每一次我都跟你提公安的問題啊當然公安的主責組織單位是勞動部但是你是監督單位喔你發現問題你要去制定這整個規範要做到什麼應該是要跟勞動部"},{"start":4632.576,"end":4658.745,"text":"跟勞工部這個監督這個執行的單位要有聯繫所以在這個部分特別這幾年下來確實是有進步但是我還是要拜託我們主委在這個部分確確實實你還是要用一點心把這個勞工的生命財產安全去把它做得更嚴謹這對勞工才會有幫助"},{"start":4661.326,"end":4681.188,"text":"那最後啊我還是特別要拜託主委啦因為下一張我要拜託主委就剛才孟愷委員他所講的解凍的問題啊我也知道解凍有兩種一種是委員會解一種是宴會解"},{"start":4682.031,"end":4701.759,"text":"但是我私底下你來看我我還是給你一個建議啊我說先送委員會因為我們委員會只有15個人據我了解我來參加交通委員會我跟你講我們這個交通委員會不分黨派大家都一團合聚針對問題來解決那有什麼困難在委員會講"},{"start":4706.101,"end":4733.699,"text":"那有必要到宴會去結委員會先結送到大會備案來結這是對我們案子是有幫助的所以都不要去爭論事實有些確實是在宴會來做解凍有些是在我們委員會去做解凍所以主委我說實在啦我還是希望我還是希望我到任何一個地方我也知道"},{"start":4735.041,"end":4748.835,"text":"這個金職獎這個部分是大家都重視啊包括我們所有委員各黨各派我們都認為這有必要啊那你們做的最好的也是這個金職獎的部分啊當然不能停頓啊那如何去解決"},{"start":4750.485,"end":4773.718,"text":"當然就是主委你這裡特別特別要用一點技術性的東西我比較建議送到委員會委員會審了以後呈給大會我跟你講反對的機會不會很大所以主委這個我特別啊給你一個建議啦那當然因為我也知道說實在的最近啊這個這個"},{"start":4777.351,"end":4793.997,"text":"這個謠言滿天輝啦好 謠言下一張來謠言滿天輝啦但是真的 主委以我了解你的處事原則我不希望你跟這些你跟這些謠言去起舞不需要因為你要做事"},{"start":4795.834,"end":4823.714,"text":"你曾經的主委就是公共工程委員會的主委我就是把所有的問題解決這是最重要所以我今天說實在第一個重視薪資的問題第二個重視公安的問題另外這個我是給你一個良心的建議用這種方式很快就可以解決因為我們要解決問題不要跟這些啊那個那個捕風捉影啊 造謠一大堆我們解決問題最重要嘛"},{"start":4825.535,"end":4847.883,"text":"因為我們要繼續前進下去所以主委我還是良心建議啊也就是這個這個獎項當然一定要辦啊但是我是覺得沒有必要這些民間團體當然也不是你授意啦我在看是他們心裡面緊張啊但是我認為對執政黨負責"},{"start":4851.974,"end":4862.317,"text":"無可獲悔但是不能跟造謠這些啊來做對主委以上這三點我還是給你一個良心建議好不好好謝謝好謝謝主委來接下來我們請李坤澤委員執行"},{"start":4888.076,"end":4891.984,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 請一下陳金的主委好 主委請"},{"start":4898.362,"end":4926.485,"text":"委員長主委長那其實看到今天開會的過程那我們都是尊重各個委員的發言的權利及相關的內容不過還是有一些議事的程序我想曾經的主委也算是我在立法院的學長也是我國大代表時期的學長那對於相關的議事程序也應該都清楚那其實我們在過去很少會碰到說幾乎"},{"start":4928.306,"end":4950.314,"text":"是沒有碰過說預算可以先執行30%你不夠再來說或者是要院會來解凍這樣的一個流程其實在以前都是沒有碰過的這個當然立法院的生態以及議事程序的變化也真的有時候讓人家非常的錯愕那我先請教一下主委我們的橋樑是"},{"start":4954.124,"end":4974.825,"text":"很重要的一個交通的動脈跟基礎設施那因為我們台灣的天災地震極端氣候的衝擊我們對於這些相關橋仰的結構安全因為它攸關到民眾的生命財產安全的一個基本的保障所以橋仰的維護管理"},{"start":4975.746,"end":5001.123,"text":"是一個很重要的議題那在2月26日工程會有抽查全國的橋樑300座裡面有35座的橋樑是達到U4的等級U4的等級就是說它必須要進行立刻要進行養護而且它是預期未修的這個階段那其中中央部會圍管了有3座"},{"start":5001.883,"end":5006.828,"text":"那地方政府圍管的有32座我要請教主委我們針對這35座橋樑他達到優勢的等級我們工程會會去邀請他進行相關的如何的一個補強的計畫來主委說明一下"},{"start":5019.78,"end":5035.793,"text":"報告委員優勢就是最緊急啦要立即處理啦所以工程會會要求橋樑的主管機關或者是維護機關立即透過工程的方法或相關的方法去改善"},{"start":5036.934,"end":5059.386,"text":"那因為橋樑的維護有他的維護主管機關上級也能夠去抽查他嘛所以工程會大概就是抽查不是每一座去查那300座這個是透過系統去盤點出來的然後分門別列U1 U2 U3 U4那會要求主管機關就U4的部分立即要來改善有沒有補強計畫這些補強計畫什麼時候會完成簡單說明一下"},{"start":5063.344,"end":5083.755,"text":"我們就要求這個相關的主管機關那麼針對優勢等級的那必須立即提出計畫那必要的時候工程會會去做審議他這個計畫這個必須要立即要讓民眾看到我們對於這些有必須立即維護管理有潛在立即會發生危險的橋樑"},{"start":5085.276,"end":5093.741,"text":"那另外就是說有32座的地方政府所轄管的這些橋樑我們如何去督促他做維護管理"},{"start":5095.512,"end":5118.524,"text":"因為橋樑他有主管機關嘛不管是交通法規的或內政法規的他還是有上級中央主管機關我們要求內政部或交通部公路局等要求地方政府去改善那這個橋樑呢那當然我們也可以去督導了基本上我請他的主管機關去要求地方政府按照等級去做必要的改善"},{"start":5118.764,"end":5135.942,"text":"這個都必須要加強我們的一個都管的一個能力這個都必須橋樑關係到人民的這種生命財產的安全我對於高齡的這些橋樑主委我們更進一步來探討全國的橋樑總共有26432座"},{"start":5141.442,"end":5146.409,"text":"然後有22963座它是車型的這種橋樑30年以上的橋樑有8523座裡面還有6552座它年份不明就是"},{"start":5158.855,"end":5185.278,"text":"裡面的這些橋樑有超過一半他是地方委管的他的相關的這些資料也不夠齊全他的年份也不明那我們現在每年只能查核300座量能啊大概只有現在橋樑總數的1.1%而已那如果我們的這些26432座橋樑要全部盤查大概要花70年以上了"},{"start":5186.175,"end":5210.803,"text":"那如果只盤查30年以上的也要30年能量啊 量能是明顯的不足啊主委我們看到在抽查的這段期間其實這些橋仰它還是持續的老化那它的這些危害的風險啊災害的風險它也每天都在提高那工程會對這個橋仰安全有沒有更具體的政策"},{"start":5211.523,"end":5233.271,"text":"依法這個橋樑的維護主管機關他必須兩年就要去去查一次啦那我們會按照這樣的標準要求相關機關確實務必兩年要查核一次所以不會只有抽查300座而已300座我們是盤點出來所以因為他每座橋都主管機關工程會確實"},{"start":5234.591,"end":5257.028,"text":"那麼來要求相關的機關每兩年查核一次這件事情我相信這樣子兩萬多座就不會那麼久花那麼久他每個機關的兩年都去查一次那資料我們都會納管這個很重要就是相關的除了這些抽查或是兩年定期的這種檢查的這個制度必須要去加強落實"},{"start":5257.808,"end":5278.876,"text":"那我們現在來談一下強化橋樑的這些圍管的機制那我們目前全國的橋樑管理的這個系統每年3月跟9月都會通知各機關轄下的橋樑的管理狀態同步要通知工程會來含穩各圍管機關這個程序沒有錯吧"},{"start":5279.836,"end":5293.789,"text":"另外我的具體的建議我是認為工程會應該跟交通部運營所還有各縣市政府來協助就是說我們要依照橋樑的風險程度使用的連線"},{"start":5295.05,"end":5316.097,"text":"構造的形式地理的位置還有交通的流量以及既有結構的這些評估等等的項目必須要明列出來我們要建立跨機關共用分級及養護的追蹤機制來建立這些養護的履歷這個是一個很重要因為目前各委管單位"},{"start":5316.957,"end":5336.583,"text":"有養護履歷但是沒有互相的這種互通這是一個機制目前很明顯的一個缺陷那另外我們工程會也要領頭來建立分級查核小組以及查核的程序也要擴大這種新興的檢測的技術還有智慧的管理的應用"},{"start":5337.663,"end":5358.835,"text":"例如說引用空拍機及AI的影像辨識科技及大數據風險的這種預測的模型來篩選高風險的橋樑來做改善也要結合無人機檢測的新興科技手段來提高巡查的效率以及預警的一個準確度來讓主委簡單說明一下"},{"start":5359.875,"end":5376.707,"text":"謝謝委員這麼關心這個危險橋樑的維管我想我們會精進我們要求所有的橋樑危險這個機關如果兩年查核一次那麼他的data他的數據一定要報到工程會那工程會希望能夠建置一個全國這麼多橋樑來分級"},{"start":5379.329,"end":5391.719,"text":"那每兩年前才試的這個數據啊我們也請專家幫我們篩選或建立一個指標什麼樣的指標表示這個橋樑已經有風險了就像剛才U1 U2 U3 U4更"},{"start":5395.982,"end":5417.987,"text":"更比較說結構啦或者是相關的指標建立出來然後主動要求這個維護主管機關去做改善而不會被動由主管機關就檢測那資料都沒有彙整在一起我想我們可以做的是把這些檢測的資料整個彙整起來來分級來納管好 主委橋樑"},{"start":5419.767,"end":5447.912,"text":"本席一開始就提到它是最重要的一個交通的動脈以及基礎設施那關係到民眾的這樣的一個生命財產安全的基本保障的這樣一個嚴肅的議題那我們對於相關橋樑的巡查檢測以及相互的維護管理相關的提升安全的這種機制的推動也是主委跟工程會一個重要的工作我們必須來加強以上"},{"start":5452.145,"end":5469.111,"text":"好謝謝我們李坤哲委員好現在接下來何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員他走過來嗎沒有嗎好"},{"start":5491.754,"end":5507.738,"text":"現在我們請何新淳委員詢答沒有啦 現在前一問題 有人提前一問題所以必須要處理好 謝謝喔 謝謝超委那我們請我們陳靜的主委"},{"start":5510.438,"end":5510.718,"text":"恩主委謝謝委員長"},{"start":5520.171,"end":5528.459,"text":"不好意思剛剛有事情耽擱了那主委好其實剛剛有其他委員有談到這個我們公共工程委員會還有包括剛剛你的業務報告裡面簡報裡面有談到這個未來這個節能減碳還有淨零碳排也是一個我們工程會的一個主要的業務的內容之一"},{"start":5542.253,"end":5556.067,"text":"那賴總統也在這個國家氣候變遷的對策委員會裡面也有提到這個政府跟民間都要協力來落實低碳生活我剛剛有聽到你跟其他的委員在所謂的零碳跟低碳其實呢"},{"start":5562.173,"end":5589.526,"text":"目標就算是零碳 但是重點是要逐步的推動落實低碳我們要為了全國的氣候治理來貢獻心力我們要跟世界同步的話 我們要怎麼逐步的來推動尤其在公共工程委員會裡面可以做到的一件事 在地採購推動落實我們的原物料在地採購我舉一個例子"},{"start":5591.038,"end":5616.845,"text":"以這個木材來講我們很多的公共工程裡面可能會用到木材那木材我們現在的大部分是進口那其實我們在地的國產材現在農業部也正在推動那如果可以在地採購的話那降低這個運送過程的一個碳足跡那就是推動減量那就是推動低碳那我們"},{"start":5618.578,"end":5631.515,"text":"以距離來說我剛剛講的這個運送的距離如果以每公噸運送木材的碳排放量的亞洲運到台灣來大概每公噸增加18克的這個"},{"start":5633.658,"end":5649.886,"text":"我們的碳數如果是北美紐澳過來台灣的進口進來的每公噸大概增加約50公克如果是更遠的中南美洲來的進到台灣來的他增加的這個碳排大概有105公克"},{"start":5652.347,"end":5671.092,"text":"那有人會說 那我們要伐木嗎 國產材嘛 對不對可是我們現在有在造林 那造林呢 事實上我們要有效的如何管理那是最重要的 因為在護山造林之間如何取得一個橫頻這個聯合國的氣候變遷委員會也認為管理良好的人工林會比天然林更能有效的吸收二氧化碳"},{"start":5678.334,"end":5703.409,"text":"那意思是說 樹木在成長的過程當中長到一定的高度 長到一定的寬度那我們如果可以善用有效的管理的話那會讓我們的這個這個什麼 林木的這個二氧化碳的一個減碳的一個效果是越來越好的所以呢 以林務局曾經估算過每立方公尺的柳山的樹幹"},{"start":5704.77,"end":5715.695,"text":"可以固定640公斤的二氧化碳同樣重量的塑膠水泥或鋼鐵那碳排放比木材高出20到120倍那所以我從第一個這個是我從農業部領悟"},{"start":5722.017,"end":5743.675,"text":"署那邊所得到的一個統計資料我們現在國產材的一個生產量是逐步在提升沒錯但是呢如果沒有用政策的來推動的話我想它的速度是相當的慢那所以我也把這個運送的過程當中如果是以建材裡面的木材來看的話它的碳排量我覺得在地採購是可以減少的"},{"start":5748.419,"end":5752.16,"text":"那這個是跟公共工程委員會有什麼關係來下一頁卓榮泰院長也說我們工部門要率先進行建築轉型來帶動民間的合作嘛我們自己要先做啊剛才有其他委員也說是不是我們工部門可以開始來做起啊下一頁我們如何來帶動綠色服務綠色的這個建築產業所以呢譬如說譬如說"},{"start":5778.342,"end":5800.247,"text":"教育部呢也曾經跟我們農業部曾經合作要說我們的國中小的教室的課桌椅是不是鼓勵優先使用在地的國產材那台北市開始在做了那我曾經google一下的那個新聞過去呢陳俊濟部長跟教育部跟我們呢"},{"start":5802.491,"end":5826.699,"text":"這個在公開的場合也說我們也希望來逐步推動那這中間牽涉到一個有沒有可能在公共工程委員會的架構下有關公共工程的一個共同供應契約的採購委託書我們可以在採購地區就是原產地裡面有沒有可能是加注優先使用國產材的可能性主委"},{"start":5828.055,"end":5847.373,"text":"非常同意委員的見解就是說要減碳是啊就地取材至少運輸的排碳就減少了嘛當然那另外林木的部分有效管理人工植林也許七年八年這個木頭就可以用了而且新的"},{"start":5848.174,"end":5872.763,"text":"成長過程固碳更有效率我們完全同意那麼我們也會在公共工程裡面做相關的討論來做指引或如同剛才委員說的看有沒有辦法相關的指引裡面就直接談到優先使用就地取材這個觀點優先使用我們國內那麼人造林的林木我們來研究"},{"start":5873.283,"end":5884.934,"text":"因為這個會直接就制度性的去推動優先使用這個在地的一個採購而且在地的一個國產財第二個呢這會呢讓我們第一個產業它能夠越來越進步越來"},{"start":5889.819,"end":5917.191,"text":"越發展 第三個在公共工程的一個低碳的減核表裡面這樣子的一個碳係數跟碳排量是可以很很好的有效率的而且比較明確的來計算給予一個好的數字 那讓我們會推動這個整個低碳的一個公共工程的一個KPI其實是比較有有數字有效率的 對不對 主委"},{"start":5918.615,"end":5938.938,"text":"就是在採購契約也好或相關契約能夠比較明確的指引說優先使用就地取材這件事情那麼來共同協力整個公共工程減碳來達成這樣的目標甚至在低碳減核表裡面"},{"start":5939.498,"end":5961.614,"text":"也可以所以這有兩件事一個是採購契約委託書一個是低碳減核表如果可以推動的話優先使用在地採購在地的建材好不好這第二個接下來第二個議題就是剛剛李崑哲委員在關心我們這個公共工程委員會在去年有抽查這個橋樑那35座的橋樑需要"},{"start":5965.957,"end":5980.378,"text":"馬上派休就是所謂的U4嘛對不對那你剛剛有回答李委員是說你們會督促這個不管是中央政府管的還是地方政府管的有沒有提出這個馬上的一個改善計畫那請問你"},{"start":5982.861,"end":6004.715,"text":"給中央政府所管的部會也好或是各地方政府也好要求在什麼時間內提出來因為我為什麼要特別關心在你們的抽查裡面地方政府的32座裡面台中最多台中有13座那我們要去督促他們有沒有提出要立即修復的計畫"},{"start":6005.916,"end":6023.03,"text":"他要先提出我們才能來說是不是中央政府要幫忙給預算補助預算大家一起努力的來趕快的來該加強的加強 該重建的該重建嘛對不對金數是多少 多久"},{"start":6027.62,"end":6038.031,"text":"這個是去年的新聞喔去年已經有含送了啦那這個比較有收到他們回來的一個公文嗎回文是什麼"},{"start":6040.342,"end":6058.089,"text":"跟委員報告因為有主管機關我們去年是主動盤點然後寒松要求他們必須要針對優勢的部分要趕快去改善這個我們後續會去持續追蹤可是剛剛主委回答李委員說我們公共工程委員會有發函要求他們要主動提供"},{"start":6058.809,"end":6073.067,"text":"有沒有要立即檢修的一個計畫有沒有補強的計畫啊那如果按照你的說法就是從去年7月公布了這個新聞之後到現在都還沒有收到相關的回文囉"},{"start":6074.744,"end":6087.4,"text":"工程會不是他的我當然知道你不是主管單位但是你的督促既然有發文出去了那意思是說那中央部會這三座或者是地方政府這32座都"},{"start":6091.765,"end":6109.838,"text":"跟委員報告這個優勢的這立即要改善的部分我們除了要求這些機關競速題這個改善計畫之後我們會列為我們集合的主要目標工程會會主動去集合這35座是拜託因為既然你們抽查了剛剛立委員說其實這只是抽查你們"},{"start":6110.958,"end":6139.224,"text":"還有很多很多可能還沒有查到的或者是我們還沒有檢測到的我覺得雖然這個不是公共工程委員會的業務但是呢我們公共工程的所有的安全我覺得我們公共工程委員會也責無旁貸我們可以主動去針對危險的35座列為優先查核的目標是好不好那是不是近期內可以告訴我大概多久的時間內可以讓我們知道結果"},{"start":6140.678,"end":6142.279,"text":"現在我們請魯明哲委員執行現在好好現在請魯委員"},{"start":6182.967,"end":6206.053,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請工程會陳主委好 陳主委委員長 陳主委這個再跟你確認一下 理性確認一下 我們那個金子獎的問題你們是主計還是會計這個金子獎在公共工程的一個管理業務這個"},{"start":6211.341,"end":6228.661,"text":"這公共工程管理業務的項下裡面的一個內容裡面可能有十幾二十個五十個內容總共編排多少我來跟委員報告啦我目前被刪除的一個媒介費用220萬是只針對公共工程在查核的時候做記錄然後辦理金職獎"},{"start":6231.344,"end":6247.379,"text":"這項業務220萬可能被誤殺了啦就是說我們不是做其他媒體宣傳只是做金職獎這件事情而已220萬完全刪除所以這樣子我們沒辦法去去做宣傳做廣告或替得獎的人做一些記錄所以這個金職獎因為這220萬會失損你那3589萬刪除多少來另外不是"},{"start":6253.645,"end":6274.322,"text":"凍結的是凍結50%我知道嘛3589萬你們是在這個公共工程管理業務這個科目我們先講科目嘛會計的科目沒有一個科目叫做金子獎啦他的科目就是公共工程管理業務這一個科目裡面你們要做很多事其中有一些是金子獎請問一下3589萬刪除多少"},{"start":6281.067,"end":6307.433,"text":"山洞多少沒關係有山有洞我知道嘛3589萬山竹多少因為金職獎在金職獎在工程會的在工程公管處的預算裡面所以公管處的預算裡面1517萬凍結一半的話就只剩下758萬啦那這個不是金職獎業務而已整個工程管理處相關的業務都需要這個錢所以我們金職獎需要1060萬"},{"start":6310.094,"end":6318.803,"text":"1060萬如果說整個公管處凍結下來只剩下758萬可以用包括金職獎以及其他業務的話根本無法辦理金職獎好"},{"start":6321.122,"end":6345.217,"text":"現在你精緻講的一個部分因為本身你們的業務都包含在整個的一個科目裡面那本身科目的話當然有統三有三減有凍結這個部分我們都知道那我們覺得因為你本身的一個大的一個科目下面如果向下本身如果剩下的部分你可以先去做處理的我是先去做前期的處理那比較稍微不及的其他的業務"},{"start":6346.238,"end":6371.47,"text":"放在後面等解凍再來這是我給你的建議啦好不好看看能不能能夠達到這個讓這個事情也可以去做來我想這個我先要謝謝這個陳主委啊我看你這個到機場公司啊對於我們三航廈甚至我們三跑道未來一個發展你是做蠻多關注的我特別有注意到"},{"start":6372.35,"end":6385.215,"text":"那確實在今年過年的時候特別覺得恐怖你知道出國回國那個一航廈二航廈這個人潮擠爆了他吞吐量確實按照疫情之前當時覺得未來"},{"start":6388.624,"end":6410.439,"text":"出入境的人越來越多的時候我們現在兩個行下吞吐量是根本不夠的服務品質是絕對不夠的現在已經看到是非常非常嚴重那三行下當時預計的吞吐量就覺得非常非常重要我們看到下表2019年當年出入境跟過境的人數有4869萬你看到最後"},{"start":6415.787,"end":6426.28,"text":"2024就是去年快要差不多九成多了總共也這個使用到機場的也有4492萬那我這樣請問一下就第一個問題目前T3航廈"},{"start":6433.444,"end":6462.148,"text":"它的一個進度56.33因為我們希望是要完工的整個進度你是定在明年度的11月可是我們看到很多的一個配合的一個相關的一些工程當然有一些要硬體完成它可以進場的那當然最後一個包括PMS這個部分你對於整體能夠如期如質完工的目前就你深入的了解你來做一個說明好嗎"},{"start":6464.367,"end":6481.903,"text":"謝謝委員的關心他幾個部分有些停機坪已經可以完工先提供使用停機坪那接下來就是被登記廊廳一慢了一些所以我們要求今年9月15一定要完成9月15一定要馬上能夠"},{"start":6483.104,"end":6505.772,"text":"使用了那接下來就是那個主體跟藍燈機廊廳所以整個希望在116年能夠完工那目前呢陶磯公司也全力在推進啦北燈機廊廳大概在裝修了在裝修收尾所以希望今年9月15能夠完成啟用但目前的進度是這樣整個通通完成可能要等到116年"},{"start":6507.557,"end":6533.954,"text":"好那因為這幾天我也跟機場公司有了解北登基廊廳預計 剛剛我去年問你的時候原本的目標是在今年希望年中啊能夠弄好那你剛剛講慢了一點但是我是覺得要有把握一點好不好就是說因為旅客這麼多要進去相關的一些設施要請淘機公司淘機公司在工程真的要弄好不要弄一個"},{"start":6535.409,"end":6543.687,"text":"辦成品這樣 一進去給人家用罵得亂七八糟的這個部分我是希望以工程會立場要特別關注提醒淘汰公司好不好"},{"start":6545.851,"end":6570.942,"text":"那我接下來要講的最後一個就PMS那當然這個也要這個因為你的介入不是介入去關注跟淘擠公司最後的一個想法他是業主因為我們看到三航廈PMS這樣的一個航廈電巴的一個情況那我們之前談過我們就不說了就是在得標在112年12月25號得標之後"},{"start":6574.474,"end":6595.789,"text":"一路來的新歷路程到了去年解約那現在呢最新的3月11號又開始辦招標說明會了方式還是航廈電吧那個你指導他們啦因為工程類採購法這個部分啦過去一定有些問題所以我有兩個問題第一個"},{"start":6599.096,"end":6620.253,"text":"解約了我看誰向誰要錢還不知道那個部分多少錢我這邊不預判那現在再招標呢比原本的招標17億多變18億可能因為物價調整那你看看你覺得這一次有沒有發生這樣的一個事情有沒有人要人應該要負責"},{"start":6622.114,"end":6632.675,"text":"或說警告處分不是說下台啦都沒有人要負責就是說很虛幻的一件事就是哇這個大問題然後發覺沒有能力我們找到"},{"start":6633.683,"end":6653.542,"text":"沒有能力的人然後又要解約然後可能還要吵來吵去誰賠誰錢還不知道然後又重新加了一億再招標這中間到底你們在檢討的過程沒有人要負責嗎跟委員報告的確委員的見解相當正確是因為一個採購的"},{"start":6656.204,"end":6681.123,"text":"方式導致整個國家重大的工程延宕所以我們會請交通部就前期的這個採購那麼他的檢討報告送到工程會或者是我們相關會來瞭解 會請交通部來完成這個調查報告好 我也希望趕快做那再來是"},{"start":6684.082,"end":6696.049,"text":"我在去年9月30號特別有跟你討論這些事情也不光是我好幾位委員都在討論當時發生的這個問題航廈電吧發生的一些問題那我們討論到其中有一點你給我回答我說奇怪為什麼有這麼多能力可能不太夠的我們那時候講說要渣男廠商我不知道正不正確為什麼他可以一直在這邊"},{"start":6708.175,"end":6725.361,"text":"活得很厲害什麼都可以飆到讓後面都做不成那時候你也說我們希望能夠建置這些廠商的履歷讓優秀廠商跟不好的廠商大家一看就清楚畢竟發報單位從中央政府到地方政府到鄉鎮事工所"},{"start":6726.081,"end":6742.23,"text":"你知道嗎大家我哪知道哪家廠商是好還是壞所以這時候有相關的有沒有統一的一個系統建置你說這個履歷其實我蠻期待但是好像現在只能對工程類這些服務的又完全沒辦法是什麼情況要不要說明一下請處長來跟你說明另外我補充一點就是"},{"start":6748.376,"end":6774.649,"text":"我們將來這個有不管是承包商或者其他的分包商我們將來這個在101條款的時候啊他們也會重新修正就能夠希望一方面符合比例原則一方面也關注的到有些廠商這個得標A然後換個名字又去標B那這個我們會透過法制來防度這樣的現象那至於廠商的部位我想請處長來說明"},{"start":6776.57,"end":6799.825,"text":"目前我們的履歷是針對施工廠商那施工廠商假設有牽涉到他建造或設計的部分我們會在履歷裡面去呈現那不過單獨針對勞務類的設計的或是設計類的技術性的公司我們現在沒有去把他納進來這個部分假設要全面去管理我們系統我們可以去做擴充以上"},{"start":6800.305,"end":6815.636,"text":"不過我覺得還是要思考啦因為畢竟一個工程或者一個先進的一個設施能不能做成功你知道嗎每一顆螺絲如果是不行都是最後沒辦法成功啦所以我覺得像舉個例子像李立李立"},{"start":6816.917,"end":6836.75,"text":"因為這次我看到我問的淘汰公司你們又上網了又重新了那到底有什麼在標案中間有什麼精進的一個條件嗎它最主要裡面寫的必須要有相當經驗或實績者我覺得這很好還刮乎國外業績均可記錄可是我蠻害怕的我就想這個是處長嗎處長你來回答一下好不好"},{"start":6842.333,"end":6862.734,"text":"就是如果李立再來投標呢再來聯合投標可不可以啊基本上當然是不行啦就我觀點來看他應該是不行是不行 不行的原因是嗎我跟委員報我判斷李立之前所謂的時機只是一個測試階段他並沒有上路的時機所以這個時機的認定要請台積公司務必慎重"},{"start":6866.616,"end":6891.827,"text":"好啦 我直接說啦 我不要講說光是李立啦像類似這樣的公司甚至在國防領域 聽過很多很奇怪的但是就李立來講 他最早進入台灣能夠得標包括鐵道局或者幾個地方政府的自駕車最主要來源他都說他是美國佛羅里達州傑克遜威爾士自駕"},{"start":6893.377,"end":6920.919,"text":"這個系統因為哇那個弄得很大所以這個履歷到時候還在台灣還得獎經濟部還要頒他頒獎所以我在講說這個部分我覺得關卡還是蠻重要的誰來把關最後一個建議因為在上次的評審委員在挑選的過程中我們發覺其實每一個領域差一點還差蠻多的但是每一個領域可能都有都會的地方所以在這中間"},{"start":6923.041,"end":6946.912,"text":"這個這個航廈電吧的部分你找了很多領域當然機場公司一定要電力的有但是你主要以軌道工程捷運工程其實這個領域不太是有一些不太一樣我真的是希望你們建議啊你不能干預嘛你建議啊你們下次是不是再對於航廈還是電吧哦自駕電吧這種概念啊能不能要去找一下哦真正在這個領域"},{"start":6948.433,"end":6975.155,"text":"我覺得他比較專業的人一定有為什麼呢因為交通部跟我們這個車安中心啊在去年度啊就已經有研擬出自駕公車實驗運行安全的指引的草案啊我相信這個東西一定有專家在後面幫交通部跟車安中心把這個研究出來所以我是希望真的能夠在這麼多名單中間當然有軌道的"},{"start":6975.655,"end":7001.826,"text":"要自駕電巴這些的實務的系統的專家學者我們真的希望也你這邊能不能建議那個淘櫃公司也能夠一併納入讓能夠未來能夠真正的專業投入在審查過程中建立淘櫃公司就評審委員審查員的組成啊那務必能夠多元那包括剛才委員所關注問題我們會跟淘櫃公司來建議"},{"start":7003.554,"end":7023.306,"text":"還有什麼密集要講的委員報告就是說那個如果淘機公司他組成這個評審委員他要先公開廠商是可以建議當然我們也可以給他一些建議建議啦你這個自駕電巴已經出了一次問題了還是自駕電巴這一系列找幾個專家我覺得這樣比較好好謝謝好謝謝我們魯明哲委員"},{"start":7030.185,"end":7056.664,"text":"那以上啊 特別跟各位敬請各位官員上台備詢或協詢的時候請大家要尊重主席台因為主委上台備詢都是尊重主席台請問所有官員這是立法院 不是菜市場"},{"start":7058.424,"end":7067.893,"text":"拜託主委、領導之下所有只要學選或被選都一定要尊重主席台"},{"start":7069.537,"end":7088.458,"text":"那另外一個特別跟委員會報告也就是陳樹葉委員黃建豪委員兩位委員執行完畢之後我們就定定休息十分鐘特別來跟各位做宣告那現在請我們陳樹葉委員來執行"},{"start":7100.395,"end":7103.584,"text":"謝謝主席 請主席邀請主委好 陳主委"},{"start":7109.738,"end":7129.349,"text":"委員長主委早安我們知道公共工程委員會是這個政府採購法還有計事法跟工程技術顧問公司管理條例的主管機關那對整個國家的這個公共建設的是不是能夠順利的發包推行然後包括這個"},{"start":7130.45,"end":7145.877,"text":"品質確保施工的品質等等我們公共工程委員會是肩負著很重責大任當然這些業務要順利的推動預算很重要我們看到就是說我們工程會在今年度的一個預算"},{"start":7147.518,"end":7150.001,"text":"原本是編列了5億4163萬8千元那目前就是經過就是立法院大會的一個審議之後目前是確定已經被刪了1514萬3千元那凍結業務費1億300"},{"start":7165.239,"end":7180.429,"text":"03萬元嘛這是確定的嘛對不對那本席想請問一下就是說對這樣子的一個預算被煽動的一個結果對我們公共工程委員會今年度的業務的推行會有什麼樣的困難是不是可以請主委講一下"},{"start":7181.964,"end":7196.573,"text":"謝謝委員主要兩部分就是凍結50%的部分是業務費雖然工程會預算不多但是工程會去控管的國家公共建設以今年度來講1億以上的控管就有7000多億"},{"start":7197.694,"end":7223.107,"text":"所以我們這些業務費主要就是包括去去視察去看這個橋樑或審議基本設計等等很簡單的來講如果凍結一半的話那一半不知道什麼時候會解凍那相對的那7000多億將近8000例的公共建設我們就一半沒有辦法去督導啦那這是其一第二個比較嚴重的就是金職獎因為金職獎要報名金職獎的大概去年就在準備了那"},{"start":7223.587,"end":7237.603,"text":"我們現在要發包了然後要通知業者他7月就開始來報名那我們就持續要去查核所以我們如果的預算剛才有說明凍結一半的話那後面"},{"start":7238.424,"end":7260.906,"text":"我們包括出席審查出評 賦評的委員都要給車馬費 都要出席費不知道能不能付得出啦所以到底要不要辦我們現在還在等這個預算到底有沒有比較明確什麼時候可以解凍尤其凍結金的史無前例的是在院會來解凍那我們看了一些大院的議事規則"},{"start":7262.327,"end":7284.907,"text":"院會來解凍這件事情好像還沒有潛力可循到底怎麼解凍我們都很難去有個遵循所以我們才評估說對工程會雖然預算不多那凍結53看起來不多但影響卻很大是那剛剛有委員詢問說你們工程會有沒有送出解凍案了"},{"start":7287.062,"end":7307.464,"text":"那就是說我們大院要求我們執行預算30%以後才能夠提解凍可是今年的解凍跟過去不一樣以前我們在委員會就可以處理因為我們跟各位委員都比較熟平常業務也都說明所以基本上我們比較有"},{"start":7308.447,"end":7325.215,"text":"有信心說在委員會來報告會獲得委員的支持但是在大院的院會就不一定比方說我們今年中央政府總預算在各委員會都已經談了差不多了刪多少凍結多少那機關也都我們也都同意了可是到院會去又突然會變卦"},{"start":7326.055,"end":7327.557,"text":"對 其實我們看到這次工程會被凍結比例最高的就是業務費50%我們也看到這是國民黨黨團的一個提案他們的提案也綁了一個條件就是要執行30%之後 使得申請解凍"},{"start":7348.078,"end":7367.67,"text":"那要送院會所以這個其實也是史無前例的那何況說上個禮拜四我們行政院的一個復議案才被否決所以就是說在這麼短的時間怎麼有可能說你們優務單位有可能提出這個解凍案所以我覺得這個真的是在誤導這個民眾"},{"start":7369.491,"end":7387.609,"text":"那所以這個結果都是已經確定了當然就是造成了我們工程會沒有辦法的去對這個大型公共建設的這個發包的部分沒有辦法去協助順利發包因為我們知道最近幾年就是很多的公共建設的案子流標的次數"},{"start":7388.569,"end":7405.198,"text":"比例也比較高這個也是要透過我們工程會去協助檢討之後來協助順利發包這個也是關係到整個地方基礎建設是不是可以順利的一個推展的部分那包括這個爭議案件的一個審議就是有關採購的一個爭議也是要透過我們工程會來做一個審議跟協調這個也都是會影響到這個廠商跟整個業務單位相關的一個權益問題"},{"start":7417.944,"end":7441.459,"text":"那最重要的就是有關這個技師跟顧問公司證照業務的一個推動這個也是一個很重大的影響嘛這部分我替主委補充一下這部分你剛剛沒有提到嘛這個對整個全國約三萬名技師跟一千多家顧問公司的權益也是會造成很重大的一個影響嘛是不是那還有一項就是金職獎的部分你剛剛有提到了那這個也很多委員剛剛都有這個在關心的"},{"start":7444.921,"end":7460.974,"text":"那有關這個金職獎這個可以說號稱是工程界的奧斯卡獎嘛對不對那如果說這個預算業務費沒有辦法這個順利的解凍的話就是恐怕面臨停辦嘛是不是"},{"start":7461.901,"end":7477.813,"text":"對 因為這個金指獎的期程比較長牽涉到很多家廠商他到底要不要報名或不報名都影響很大他要投入去準備所以我們希望有一個比較明確的能夠讓我們知道這個預算能不能用"},{"start":7478.433,"end":7492.872,"text":"那可是呢他的困難度就是說這次是院會解凍那到底呢將來所有的這些院會解凍的案呢是各部會呢到院會裡去尋求解凍呢還是行政院一次去尋求解凍我們都還不知道那"},{"start":7494.033,"end":7521.653,"text":"各部會向行政院來提解凍案呢還是行政院統包一次來向立法院來提解凍也都不知道那怎麼審查也都不知道那如果又陷入院會到時候又要去說明又要去表決那個都未定之天所以對我們來講造成很大的困難那請教一下這個金職獎對於工程界重不重要"},{"start":7524.174,"end":7552.368,"text":"歷年金職獎已經辦了24屆了啦所以它有一定的品牌那也是工程品質的一個指標啦所以所有的公共工程的機關或成人廠商都很希望在他們努力之後他的品質獲得金職獎的肯定啦那這個金職獎肯定除了說將來他這個再去參與其他工程的評選的時候有加分或者是他的保固禮約等等可以"},{"start":7553.489,"end":7581.627,"text":"可以減半等等這些優惠之外各界太重視這個金職獎了所以我們那個整個期程是很長啦不是說我可以這個先付款或不付款的問題那的確是希望大院能夠儘早能夠來幫忙所以金職獎對於這是就是工程界非常重視這個金職獎非常重視對所以如果停辦的話我想對整個工程界可能也是會有造成很大的一個我們也會有很大的壓力啦"},{"start":7583.068,"end":7604.363,"text":"那工程界對我們也會有一定的不諒解所以我們一方面有這個壓力一方面有預算不知道在哪裡的困擾因為我們知道透過經濟獎我們可以透過廠商間的一個良性競爭然後也可以變成是大家一個經驗的分享那也是可以確保公共工程一個施工品質"},{"start":7605.123,"end":7608.366,"text":"所以我覺得說這樣子的一個金職獎舉辦是很有意義的那何況又說這個金職獎是評定優良廠商的一個依據透過這樣子的一個評定也是可以讓這些優良廠商享有一定的一個優惠所以我們也是就是說對於這樣子金職獎因為業務費被這樣子大幅的一個凍結恐怕面臨"},{"start":7628.961,"end":7647.416,"text":"停辦我們是覺得非常的一個遺憾那另外還有一個很重要的一個業務就是工程查核的一個部分那工程查核的這個經費雖然編列的數額也不是很大可是也是非常的重要那目前也是確定被刪減了七萬兩千元然後又被凍結了"},{"start":7651.901,"end":7672.367,"text":"這個89萬就是超過了一半那對這個部分對我們這個公共工程有什麼樣的影響是不是請那個主委跟委員報告114年度的公共建設來講列管的一以上的就包括了七千大概七千七百多億所以我們這個查核才178萬凍結的話恐怕會造成連出去"},{"start":7677.088,"end":7685.661,"text":"租車都沒有錢啦這個吃個便當可能這個業務費都沒辦法使用所以影響所及是那個7000多億的一半將近4000億受影響"},{"start":7687.802,"end":7709.814,"text":"所以我覺得說這個在野黨對於這個預算在審查的時候提這樣子的一個煽動案真的就是漠視這民眾的一個公共安全所以我們也是覺得非常的遺憾那我們也希望就是說工程會在當然就是在衡量我們預算的執行的情形的話也是盡量趕快來爭取這個解凍好 謝謝"},{"start":7717.332,"end":7732.678,"text":"好謝謝我們陳書業委員現在請黃建豪委員執行現在請好主席好主席我們請工程會陳主委好請陳主委"},{"start":7740.253,"end":7762.075,"text":"委員早主委早主委我想今天我是這個委員會質詢第七位那前面六位每一位都很關切我們這個預算的問題本席當然也要關切一下這個說我想主委對於預算的這個狀況我想掌握得非常清楚我剛剛六位的詢問本席在下面聽了很多個我想主委對這事情非常清楚但是我們要提的重點就是當然業務費兩億多左右被凍結了50%"},{"start":7763.416,"end":7772.233,"text":"那現在我們期待說工程會要提解凍嘛那我想很多委員都詢問說這個到底解凍案什麼時候能夠進行我想主委可不可以把程序稍微說一下"},{"start":7772.833,"end":7796.662,"text":"我們大院的要求是執行百分之三十以後就可以提嘛那我們就遵循大院的這個主決議執行百分之三十以後會提但是呢到底怎麼提現在我們還不太清楚是直接向大院提呢還是說由行政院整個所有部會中央政府整合預算向大院來提因為只有"},{"start":7798.183,"end":7825.043,"text":"就是院會只有審理行政院的案而已行政院的院會他很難說叫我們部會首長去那邊說明這個預算怎麼執行所以這個是立法院我印象所及從來沒發生過被要求在院會同意時的動之這件事情所以我想說是不是請大院先將這個解凍程序能夠對讓我們知道到底是程序是怎麼解凍的"},{"start":7826.044,"end":7851.781,"text":"那怎麼沒有違反那個組決議那否則的話坦白講啦如果說用復議來協商來解決這個問題是最好的方式可惜復議這條路已經沒有了這條路已經結束了啦 主委到底是要由工程會來提解動案還是由行政院來提解但我想這是行政部門的問題啦這是你們內部可能行政院自己各部會之間要怎麼協調我想這是行政院端的問題那我想對於立法院來講"},{"start":7853.162,"end":7878.369,"text":"前面當然刪除預算凍結預算行政立法院具有主動權但現在我想最大問題是提解凍案的主動權應該在貴院就是行政院的各行政部門提解凍案你要先進來我們才能夠去討論說怎麼樣進行後續程序要先經過委員會再送到院會還是你們可以直接提報告案到院會裡面去解凍這當然是後續的討論但現在最大問題什麼我要跟這個"},{"start":7879.489,"end":7896.917,"text":"我主委也提醒一下如果你們去開行政院會的時候也要跟你們院長提醒一下現在問題是因為這個所謂的一四年的總預算到目前為止還沒有公告啦啊你沒有公告你當然沒有辦法去進行後面的這個流程嘛所以我們今天期待說今天提出來大家都針對數字之類程序來討論"},{"start":7897.757,"end":7911.941,"text":"那本席在這邊要提的建議是說如果要快的話其實應該是你們要先公告公告完我們才能去針對這個案子還有後面的不管是提解東岸也還提什麼樣東西因為現在這個東西現在未定嘛"},{"start":7914.332,"end":7932.252,"text":"前面要提復議所以到了上週才復議才結束復議才結束那現在還沒有公告我公告後你們才有所謂的主動權就行政單位才有主動權提出來我們在解凍預算這三個我想立法院相對來講是被動的啦"},{"start":7933.453,"end":7947.107,"text":"那我也相信這個主委我想你做事情也非常的明快也非常的這個直接啦我想也不用對自己這麼沒信心像提到說比如說這個金質獎也好或是像各項的業務也好大家就為什麼要取其凍結案不是刪除凍結最"},{"start":7948.849,"end":7970.014,"text":"最務實的做法 大家都很清楚 當委員都很清楚知道說 凍結案是希望說好好的報告 好好的說明說我這筆錢要做什麼 比如說您現在講說這個金質獎 因為凍結案 我接下來共產會今年要做金質獎的預算所以我需要這些錢 然後我想基於零基預算精神立法院聽了 委員們都覺得沒問題 當然就會給你們通過"},{"start":7972.515,"end":7987.552,"text":"主委應該不用這麼沒有自信說他前面在哪裡我想你只要好好的解釋好好的說明這個凍結他既然是凍結而已他不是刪除就表示說大家只是對業務內容不熟悉不了解希望有報告然後就好處理了嘛主委怎麼看"},{"start":7988.666,"end":8011.582,"text":"報告委員關鍵就是說還要同意後始的動之同意不同意並不知道那這一部分如果如果是在委會處理因為既兩院互相制衡互相尊重那過去都行李如宜在委員會要刪要動都可以因為這次在院會比較特別所以讓我們想起說那立法院"},{"start":8012.85,"end":8035.839,"text":"去凍結行政院的預算而不是刪減這件事情到底有沒有違法之餘因為如果說我們這個預算是凍結比方這個預算防疫預算如果發生了疫情武漢肺炎COVID-19疫情發生了使得凍結那這是合法的如果說你要我同意要立法院同意你才能用那這是行政權"},{"start":8037.273,"end":8061.919,"text":"所以這部分是有疑慮的啦如果我們看過一些見解是有疑慮的主要是那個程序要請大院能夠明示到底我們要怎麼向院內來尋求解凍也許我們國會聯絡的人也會跟大院的議事組來講程序的部分當然要講這是兩院之間這個兩院院長也好或是各單位也好去協調啦那我們現在講的說是被動跟主動求院如果你們今天"},{"start":8063.219,"end":8084.133,"text":"遲遲的沒有公告 沒有提解凍案進來那我想不管是委員會也好 院會也好 我沒辦法處理啊今天就算 就像今天這樣子今天已經3月10幾號了嘛 那如果今天如果照正常程序 如果一切都按照正常程序不管預算的審查怎麼樣 或是後面有沒有提付議案我想按照往例 假設今天"},{"start":8085.574,"end":8109.028,"text":"這個整個立法院行政院的按照正常程序來講可能現在也執行30%就差不多要啟動相關程序了啦所以我們期待還是要期待說這個主委要把這意見帶回去啦說你們在行政端這邊主要是說你們如果沒有提那立法院也沒辦法被動的處理我想要把這個事情把它講清楚了好不好還有兩分鐘來我們針對一下內容這個我想這個"},{"start":8112.99,"end":8127.822,"text":"要提到工程會部分就針對這幾年很多營建通膨物價上漲部分我們看到說包含基隆捷運還有高雄的捷運從過去這些年它的經費都漲非常非常多那麼過去的這幾年營造工程物價指數也是連年上漲從105年的"},{"start":8129.904,"end":8154.699,"text":"最低82.15%到去年達到111.4%是歷史新高我們要問的是說對於這樣子的物價指數達到歷史新高對於我們想很多公共工程的影響性非常非常大可能流標也好或者是進度拖延也好不知道工程會對這樣的狀況有沒有具體掌握到那要怎麼樣解救我想很多地方建設陸陸續續在開展尤其是台中我想今年"},{"start":8155.299,"end":8178.248,"text":"大家都知道台中今天藍線要即將要動工要開始動那長達時期的工企會不會到最後又一天發生我們已經看到這麼多案子這麼多這個捷運工程要留標或者是在延後很多次那台中我想我們對於藍線台中非常期待這個造價上千億的工程會不會到最後一千億變兩千億那後面怎麼處理等等的我想工程會對這個問題有沒有掌握到要怎麼解決"},{"start":8179.97,"end":8202.212,"text":"因為台中南線大概我記得經費大概900多億這個中央政府的部分900多億那因為我們預算編列或規劃的階段在預算框的時候是舊的當年的指標等到這些基本設計已經審核定了細部設計也設計了施工完工那已經後面的事了"},{"start":8202.512,"end":8219.055,"text":"所以顯然是這個之前的這個指標也許會受通膨相關的影響那這一部分我們工程會也會希望各機關在辦理公共工程的時候他的預算要編列的時候要注意到這樣的情形"},{"start":8219.736,"end":8237.445,"text":"所以盡量而且要因地制宜甚至有的比較偏鄉造價比較高的該造價高的預算就變比較多啦那另外就是在執行中如果有碰到這個廠商跟機關之間因為物價的問題需要調整或需要執行的那工程會呢都會"},{"start":8238.886,"end":8262.307,"text":"站在比較協助解決的方向來加以諮詢或協調那另外就是說整個預算裡面機關有時候他也會準備物條的費用會編在裡面因為我們擔心說當然在編預算的確都有物條費的問題就是說現在是基本上每過五年每過十年又有一項這種大型工程當然第一個我們希望說"},{"start":8263.919,"end":8289.473,"text":"大的問題是說我們大的工程能不能加速進行還不要拖5年10年但物價都不一樣了那另外一個回到工程面回到這個政府的對於這些工程進度的掌管的問題來講的話這個工程會在審相關案件的時候是不是應該直接把物價可能調漲的這個問題放進去審核的報告裡面讓他們知道說未來幾年不管是你們因為我想工程會可能掌握的"},{"start":8290.653,"end":8298.385,"text":"資源或技術比地方政府或地方發包的或比地方工程的廠商來得多嗎你們比較知道說可能現行的物價值說未來"},{"start":8299.662,"end":8321.378,"text":"會上漲多少的比例可能要先放進去而不是說我今年按現在的物價編完了比如說現在台東捷運你中央出900多億地方也才會出1000左右2000總共2000億左右的捷運纜線會不會明年就超過這金額所以我就多編的部分是不是能夠讓工程會有一個方案能夠讓地方政府能比較放心的去做這個事情"},{"start":8321.598,"end":8345.538,"text":"好 謝謝委員因為台中的藍線捷運因為之前有修正過如果在執行中有發現這個問題那主辦機關是台中市政府他可以再提修正再提修正經過行政院來審議如果覺得預算要調整的時候就會再核定這個修正計畫那因為還沒有完工所以沒有理業爭議的問題所以當中台中市政府可以提修正好 主委謝謝"},{"start":8349.918,"end":8353.621,"text":"謝謝我們黃建豪委員好現在我們休息十分鐘"},{"start":8384.07,"end":8399.104,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8406.998,"end":8407.739,"text":"加速快"},{"start":8930.54,"end":8949.881,"text":"好 我們繼續開會好 現在請我們林淨炫委員執行現在請好 感謝主席 本席邀請我們工程會陳主委好 陳主委"},{"start":8958.032,"end":8975.89,"text":"委員長 委員長好 各位早上大概有有些委員也在問你那個預算被凍結的事情現在我查一下 我們工程會主要的預算都是被凍結的"},{"start":8978.206,"end":8994.699,"text":"然後他當時的凍結的條件是你要凍織30%業務費你要花掉30%你才能送解凍案對不對那剛有人說我們工程會為什麼不先送解凍"},{"start":8995.939,"end":9020.349,"text":"看起來好像你不能送 按照這個質疑上就是要按照大院的主決議審查預算的主決議是動資超過30%然後就要才可以來申請解凍但是解凍是在院會我知道 他這個當時的審議結果是要送院會才能解凍"},{"start":9021.889,"end":9041.36,"text":"我講不要說我們交委會有很多都是第一屆的立委就算資深的立委我在立法院十幾年了我從來沒有看過預算解凍要送院會送院會是要解凍程序上是怎樣第一個你要花掉30%你才能送解凍你什麼時候可以花掉30%"},{"start":9044.927,"end":9060.817,"text":"你可以拿捏嗎就是30%以後我們也會尊重大院的決議我們一定會提出提出就是說第一個程序上我們還不清楚大院要怎麼處理院會同意的這個解凍的程序第二個"},{"start":9061.737,"end":9085.11,"text":"會不會同意使用事實上是不知道因為如果院會不像貴委員會一樣那麼好溝通那我們在委員會裡面因為幾個會期都在一起比較了解我們的業務但大院那邊院會來二讀二讀處理解凍案是沒有這種經驗所以不知道程序上要花多久根本沒有沒有發生過這種事情"},{"start":9086.616,"end":9115.209,"text":"那你現在照理講預算案其實就是法律案啦程序上就算解凍第一個齁時間你不能現在就馬上送啦對不對所以工程會不能送因為你必須要業務費動資30%以後你才能送那程序上你是應該一樣要送到委員會來委員會要先審過嘛但是審過不算就解凍齁大概幾乎等於法案的一睹"},{"start":9117.794,"end":9124.326,"text":"就一讀以後送到委員會來一樣委員會審完然後再送院會那你這個解凍案是算二讀嗎"},{"start":9126.601,"end":9151.333,"text":"你這個解凍案應該就不是報告案對 按照大院的決議院會那應該是二讀照在野黨的那個看起來那個精神就是審議案對 就是審議案那你審議案院會要給你解凍院會必須要院長專門召開一個預算的解凍解凍院會因為你不能自己去"},{"start":9152.693,"end":9180.777,"text":"行政院長要 應該議長可以讓院長才能帶部會首長到院會去啦對這個部長是不能進去院會啦你要議長幫你找嘛應該是行政院長才有如果能夠排到讓你們各部會去解凍那個大概就是朝委協商啦讓你議長要擺嘛那你知道各部會有多少需要到院會去解凍的嗎不少"},{"start":9187.369,"end":9202.996,"text":"你要看院會的那個時程啦你有沒有時間排啦因為你現在是總諮詢嘛總諮詢大概到4月下旬才會結束啦結束以後我們還有一些法案"},{"start":9204.859,"end":9229.579,"text":"意思是說 除非啦 草野協商啦大家能夠同意啦 預算解凍案優先啦這個大概要看草野的氣氛啦他如果沒跟你排 你是不是要解凍你連解凍的機會也沒有 對不對而且看起來啊 那個是必須要以審議案的狀況進行那就是要排行政院長到會啦"},{"start":9231.406,"end":9247.573,"text":"行政省到院會來率領這些部會就解凍案來讓立法院的院會進行審議而且要審議通過喔對我們的理解是這樣子其實這種結論我覺得這是根本亂來反其道而行因為你都剝削了我們委員會審查的權利"},{"start":9258.444,"end":9284.827,"text":"你預算凍結刪除其實最重要是委員會我們整個會期每天要報告或諮詢為什麼委員會中心制要出來大家要強調這一點如果彭委員會的立委相較上一定比較熟悉了解業務是不是這樣所以你要刪要凍其實應該是委員會相對的你要解凍也一樣在委員會"},{"start":9286.28,"end":9290.702,"text":"所以能不能同意解凍案應該是委員會的權利嘛他有提議院會對不對我們的副院長也坐在下面嘛我從來沒碰過預算解凍案送院會去決定的那委員會要怎麼做如果你解凍案送到我們委員會來我們審查的結論假設我們都同意解凍也沒有用啦"},{"start":9315.046,"end":9324.176,"text":"因為委員會沒有權力決定嘛 還要送院會去做最後的一個裁決嘛這樣委員會我們就心寒肉燙了我們就沒有權力決定了啊你院會一百多個立委 大家會了解你工程會意義上幹什麼嗎一定是本委員會的委員會比較知道嘛"},{"start":9336.542,"end":9362.596,"text":"所以這個絕對啦 第一個我覺得時程上啦你要先花掉30%你才能送啦30%沒花 花不夠 你也不能上解凍案 對不對對你 就是你上解凍案 你也要拜託我們召委你我召委 這要給他善意 你就要拜託拜託召委 趕快給我們擺解凍案的委員會審查我們如果審查了 也不遵守啦 因為你要再送院會"},{"start":9363.556,"end":9391.861,"text":"那還要看院會 當然要朝野生生看那時候的氣氛啦拜託韓院長 看什麼時候可以把我們的解凍案排進去所以 這個會不會影響業務 我看這這要到五月 五月六月了那當然會影響業務嘛那約底就馬上又要修會啦然後又要修會了 那說 而且這當中之間要審查的法律案不知道有多少啦"},{"start":9393.134,"end":9411.226,"text":"對不對 你總不能把任何時間全部都浪費在解凍案這根本就浪費時間嘛 你應該是讓委員會來決定嘛那就你的報告啦 就我們主委的報告啦你現在預算這些被凍結大概有幾項事項會受到影響嘛"},{"start":9412.287,"end":9425.695,"text":"你自己說的 就是工程的一些裁定像你去年 我看你的報告裡面 我們來看一下爭議採購案件有786件你開會有開了1034個會議 調解會議47次就是標不出去的流標專案會議有8次 有8個案"},{"start":9437.122,"end":9449.253,"text":"另外還有採購諸行會六個案你這些大概都是必須要你業務你必須要做這是你的本業你的專業啦每個月大概受兩八十件禮業爭議調解啊你現在要怎麼開業務會嘛要怎麼開業務會啊"},{"start":9453.177,"end":9470.395,"text":"你說會不會影響 其實影響到的是一些廠商啦 民間廠商跟業主就是公部門有糾紛的啦這大部分都在這啦 生涯不是人民的權利嘛所以我們也希望啦 就這個部分啦 能夠"},{"start":9473.612,"end":9498.829,"text":"大家能夠有一個可以解決了那以目前的草原分委來看喔我看你要慢慢等啦我也不知道什麼時候可以才可以排到你們的所謂預算案可以送到院會去解凍喔沒有你要先花掉30%咧那你們要趕快開開啊為了救後面的70%那前面30%趕快亂花啊不然你怎麼知道你當時能花掉30%是不是這樣"},{"start":9502.796,"end":9508.525,"text":"那就你目前政見會影響的這種 這種你的業務啊就你所報告的啦 那你怎麼處理"},{"start":9511.98,"end":9536.152,"text":"金職講的部分我們希望能夠比較明確能夠盡速來解凍啦這個才能夠辦法著手進行啦那其他重大公件的查核啦管控啦 督導啦那我們就還是按照過去的計時政策 核發計時政策因為凍結一半嘛 只能用一半的錢嘛那如果說一半用完了大概就停擺了啦"},{"start":9536.772,"end":9551.833,"text":"但是金字獎比較特殊金字獎不能說做到哪裡付到哪裡它就是整個案而且牽涉到那麼多廠商要報名所以是要很明確說今年有這個錢要辦我們辦這個金字獎不能說要等到大院同意了之後"},{"start":9552.213,"end":9577.39,"text":"我們再來複習 廠商為什麼要爭取金職獎 爭取到對他們有什麼好處因為它是一個品質的指標嘛 保證那也是他們廠商的榮譽啦那對他們來講 得到金職獎呢那連續幾年之後 那麼他這個將來在承攬其他工程啦 評選的時候就會加分 保固金啊 理業等等都可以減免對廠商來講是一個無上的榮耀好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":9579.175,"end":9607.356,"text":"好謝謝我們林俊訓委員好現在我們請蔡奇章副院長執行謝謝主席請陳主委好陳主委蔡委員早主委早"},{"start":9609.082,"end":9634.57,"text":"這個主委預算齁刪除凍結這麼嚴重齁其實本席在質詢裡也有點辛苦啦因為涉及到預算的我都不問了啦你就沒錢我自己問一半是在問什麼所以如果我待會不小心還有問到跟預算有關係你就直接告訴本席說報告委員預算被凍或者被刪所以沒辦法執行好"},{"start":9639.286,"end":9644.195,"text":"這個預算啦這個送院會解凍這個本席也沒有"},{"start":9645.202,"end":9670.774,"text":"印象中也很少聽到這樣子解凍就在委員會現在這個可能要請議事處再研議看看送院會解凍的程序到底是要不要交付委員會先審再回送給院會來審這個可能大院要去研究一下因為至少在我印象裡面好像送院會解凍這個"},{"start":9673.086,"end":9691.68,"text":"不知道,不管先回到我們的主題這個工程會,我的辦公室有問了一下最近大家都在做這個發包,都在做這個減項就做這個減項招標這個減項招標,都是因應著物價上漲"},{"start":9699.38,"end":9724.765,"text":"那因為中央政府要地方政府要經費不足嘛那經費不足的情況底下事情很重要又要做所以呢我們就把它做減相的發包那這個減相發包本來本席就覺得這個問題很大因為等於是我們錢還不一定夠但菜都先點了"},{"start":9725.97,"end":9750.46,"text":"那我們是預期反正一邊吃錢還會有人送過來餐廳所以我們就繼續吃那現在問題更嚴重的原因是因為我們原先帶來的錢又被刪除本來已經帶夠了但因為這個其他因素又把我們帶來餐廳要吃飯的錢又凍結又刪除所以這個減項發包的問題會越來越嚴重那"},{"start":9756.343,"end":9780.416,"text":"工程會這邊有提出這個檢向發包這個主要還是因為大概有九成都是因為物價上漲這個沒有足夠的這個經費所以我們做這樣的一個調整那檢向發包最後就會發現幾個問題譬如說這個中孝橋 台北這個中孝橋"},{"start":9781.91,"end":9810.237,"text":"這個引橋拆除兩次流標那北市要檢向發包那這個檢向發包啊有沒有可能會出現這個有橋沒有路燈那像我們這個台中啊像大甲國中啊這個手球啊手球館他檢向發包的結果就是房子蓋好了裡面不可以打手球而且沒有門"},{"start":9811.377,"end":9838.95,"text":"沒有門 因為門當時檢像發包所以沒有門所以檢像發包它會產生我認為它會有一些問題譬如說報紙也看到醫院蓋但檢像發包所以醫院沒有防火門所以這個檢像發包的問題主委 這個的確是應該要認真工程會恐怕要認真來講否則以後這個案例會越來越多而且越來越荒謬"},{"start":9840.267,"end":9867.318,"text":"就不久之後我們就會看到這個本來檢向了那本來預期這個今年要補結果預算又被刪又被動所以不能補不能補就會發現就會出現很多很荒謬的建築物或者很荒謬的案例我剛剛已經舉了幾個啦譬如說我們手球場沒有門的啦譬如說可能蓋路橋沒路燈的啦譬如說醫院沒有防火門的啦"},{"start":9868.358,"end":9880.028,"text":"那我相信會越來越多所以這個要不要工程會要不要有一個統一性的指示對於檢像發包到底要怎麼來規範才不會出現這種亂象"},{"start":9884.978,"end":9899.771,"text":"剪相發包那當然也是目前政府採購法裡面這個有規範的一個發包方式那有時候是因為比方說這個原設計的費用跟他預期能夠獲得中央的補助"},{"start":9900.652,"end":9919.08,"text":"有所落差或者是他獲得議會同意的預算有所落差那在不影響主要的這個工程的核心核心需求之下那麼去檢向發包那未來他有機會再擴充可能中央也同意說"},{"start":9920.06,"end":9939.68,"text":"下年度或以後年度一定會給你那這種情形有時候是有在進行但是至於把主要的核心的價值不考慮那麼在預算還沒有確定的狀況之下做了一些比較不符合常規的減向花包那這部分的確工程會的確要來檢討"},{"start":9941.522,"end":9958.714,"text":"那把這些太陽列為一個相對的教材那麼韓班各機關那麼對於減限花包這件事情應該有一些負面表列要避開的這一類我們會同意蔡委員的這個主張我們會立即來改善"},{"start":9959.895,"end":9988.881,"text":"好 謝謝主委啦 應該要有一些規範啦沒有規範 譬如說你要什麼樣的前提底下你減相發包是可以的什麼樣的狀況底下是不可以的譬如說什麼美術館減相發包那完工後還需要20億結果可能完工後沒有辦法使用就是殼子蓋好在裡面可能沒錢嘛那我的意思是說這個本來就算預算沒有被動被刪也可能會發生"},{"start":9989.921,"end":10018.28,"text":"就大家地方政府可能搶著 要有政績嘛就轉到花包出去了結果呢 東西蓋好了 卡蓋好了 內容卻沒有辦法所以會有很多那種案子就是奇怪大家看殼都已經蓋好了 為什麼遲遲不能使用本席的意思就是說 今年因為又預算遇到這個把中央的預算動成這樣 砍成這個樣子那所以可能這個問題本來就算我承諾你的"},{"start":10019.124,"end":10035.631,"text":"沒問題我本來可以承諾你結果沒想到沒有發生過預算被人家砍成這個樣子所以可能就沒有辦法承諾了就沒辦法履行那個承諾所以我同意主委啦就是你把它檢討一下就是什麼樣的樣態底下不可以再"},{"start":10036.851,"end":10064.89,"text":"這樣子的方式去發包就檢像發包應該是要有條件的情況底下才可以進行這個檢像發包另外就是如果檢像發包預期要擴充那這個訊息要揭露不能只有單獨幾家知道其他的不知道會擴充而且擴充可能擴充很多所以這訊息是要揭露沒錯因為揭露在標的過程才會公平OK這個我覺得這個建議是很好的"},{"start":10066.631,"end":10095.116,"text":"第二個我想跟主委請教那個CSR納入評比這個事情看起來公共工程會做的這應該是主計單位吧 審計處做的中央機關大概有三層做CSR的評比就是最有力標啦最有力標有納入CSR的中央大概三層國營事業大概四層地方政府僅有一層"},{"start":10096.141,"end":10121.897,"text":"那我們都知道CSR你要最有利標我們要意思就是說我們評選 透過評選評選出最好的公司 最優質的公司能力最好的公司那這裡面有很多條件要去審核那這個CSR的納入評比的比例這麼低像地方政府只有一成納入那這個CSR裡面涉及到工資合不合理嘛薪資結構合不合理"},{"start":10122.717,"end":10138.166,"text":"那像這樣的一個照顧勞工考量這個勞工的權益的部分這種薪資合理化的這個部分主委有沒有什麼方法或者是未來有什麼計畫讓這個CSR納入評比的比例可以拉升好 謝謝蔡委員那麼我們目前正在整理相關的法規會朝向ESG"},{"start":10150.054,"end":10177.946,"text":"方向來進行那過去我們都講CSR那目前因為環境重視所以用ESG那當然我們會在評選的部分希望各機關在辦理有利標然後評選的時候那麼有做到一定標準的他應該給他一定的分數來鼓勵企業那包括我們主席很重視的勞工的薪資的部分也都會納入加分的項目不過這個ESG或CSR"},{"start":10179.847,"end":10204.975,"text":"有做沒做或是做好做壞有時候會差很多啦就有的公司可能那個永續報告寫得很漂亮那事實上沒在做啦所以這裡我們在還在思考用什麼樣的標準比較明確說這個公司他很努力在做ESG或者他已經做了10年了做20年了不是去年才做的那他有沒有像像這個"},{"start":10207.517,"end":10227.71,"text":"這個金管會或證交所他上市公司有沒有提永續報告這我們正規劃一個比較嚴謹的方式來鼓勵企業重視企業社會責任或者是環境這樣的或者相關的公司治理我們都會來考量這個會遵照蔡委員的交代來重新訂購一個比較嚴謹的標準"},{"start":10228.911,"end":10251.882,"text":"好 這個主委你也知道問題啦 第一個目標要清楚啦ESG也好 CSI也好 其實都是企業社會責任的指標那這個事情要推 政府再不動就很困難嘛 特別是在有利標但如同主委剛剛講的 也有可能會有公不公平 或者真的有落實嗎 這種疑慮 所以可能"},{"start":10252.983,"end":10268.423,"text":"評比的百分比或者我們有訂定另外一套去合格查實的這個方法這個本席都支持那態度先有了後面就會慢慢推動嘛好不好最後一個這個"},{"start":10269.645,"end":10282.968,"text":"本席跟交通部這麼多年來一直在爭取這個我們台中大甲溪橋跟大安溪橋的改建那交通部跟本席講說已經送到工程會來審議那主委你知道這個案子嗎我是請我們這個處長來說明好不好這是屬於基本設計審查"},{"start":10292.691,"end":10302.498,"text":"就我們台中大甲西橋跟大安西橋年久了嘛現在公路局希望把它本席爭取要改建嘛來可不可以說明一下處長報告委員齁這個案子的改建案交通部已經送到我們工程會來審議齁那目前已經送送往國發會那國發會的現在已經在會診中"},{"start":10322.577,"end":10326.176,"text":"好 所以我們預期他的進度大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":10326.482,"end":10354.933,"text":"那國安會如果審閉行政院就會核定所以基本上等國安會應該很快如果基本設計就是工程會審閉國安會這部分只是一個改建沒有相關的環評或相關的問題國安會審這個會很快所以工程會審了我們審了才會送國安會已經出去了簡單講是這樣子那已經不在你們追案子已經不在工程會了是在國安會了這樣就好了謝謝"},{"start":10357.58,"end":10383.857,"text":"好 謝謝我們蔡其昌副院長接下來請廖先祥委員執行好 謝謝主席你要麻煩邀請我們陳主委好 陳主委問金子獎 相關的也可以一起上來"},{"start":10386.597,"end":10408.596,"text":"委員長好謝謝主委怎麼沒有人要救援你好金子獎那個業務單位好這個金子獎嘛這前幾天有新聞嘛那當然今天有很多委員在詢問主委嘛當然大家認為可能金子獎很重要才會被社會來討論我想請教一下我們金子獎去年跟今年去年的這個發包的決算跟今年的預算大概分別是多少我是請處理說明"},{"start":10419.139,"end":10438.864,"text":"謝謝委員那去年的決算大概是我們在他有兩部分一個是那個委員的審查費大概將近400萬然後再發包發包的費用大概也是將近500萬左右500萬所以加起來900那我們今年大概應該也是差不多的規模啦頂多都到"},{"start":10440.429,"end":10464.608,"text":"報告委員我們每年大概成長20%所以我們今年編的大概審查費跟發報費大概是各530萬那大概1000億以內嘛對不對好那今年的我們的業務費那大概就2億嘛那當然動50%那所以說我們實際上目前我們工程會實際能夠用的大概就是1億元嘛那也就是說在我們工程會的認知裡面我們在2億的預算裡面有1億的預算是"},{"start":10468.568,"end":10495.182,"text":"優先於這個金子獎的審查可以這樣理解嗎如果說我們不辦金子獎的話不是因為業務分在各處技術處、公管處、企劃處是同那個兩位你動了一半那各處都有各處的業務你如果把它挪用來辦金子獎相對排擠其他應辦業務包括重大公共建設的考核等等都會影響到優先順序的問題嘛你怕排擠到別人的所以金子獎"},{"start":10496.022,"end":10510.302,"text":"可能就是可能順序比較後面也就是說我們今年有一億的預算你認為這一億的優先的順序就在排序的時候金字獎可能沒有在這一億裡面可能是在後面的一億所以你才會說金字獎可能不辦不是這個意思"},{"start":10513.286,"end":10526.621,"text":"那你就辦啊所有的業務費都在業務我們預算說明欄都有說明公管數多少錢多少那個企劃數多少錢這個金職獎的說明是一千零六十萬說明在這裡"},{"start":10527.762,"end":10550.156,"text":"去流用其他部會其他業務的預算就排擠其他嘛而且大院同意不同意解凍我們不知道我們就今天當作不解凍嘛對不對你們現在是預期不解凍嘛委員認為已經確定不解凍我們要這樣講你們目前就是當作不解凍來說沒辦法辦嘛如果會解凍就會辦嘛對不對我們希望大院能夠盡速解凍"},{"start":10550.816,"end":10578.451,"text":"因為解凍就會辦嘛這沒有問題嘛對不對因為就按照你們的預算在編嘛就不知道什麼時候解凍對好那就是說我們在給你的一億裡面你不打算用這一億的經費來辦金子獎可以這樣子理解嗎不可以因為這一億裡面有其他業務要用對啊所以這一億裡面沒有要辦金子獎啊金子獎受影響是50%啊是啊受影響50%啊所以你一億裡面沒有要辦嘛你也不可能金子獎只辦一半吧"},{"start":10579.588,"end":10603.844,"text":"金職獎的確 你要買就要辦 要買就不辦吧沒有辦法說辦一辦 要等著要報名啊所以就是辦跟不辦的差別嘛就是這一千萬你到底要不要花的差別嘛一千萬要花就是一千萬花 一千萬不花就是一千萬不花嘛目前我們有一億的預算 你不打算花這一千萬嗎是不是這樣理解 大院何時解動大院凍結了不只金職獎的預算 所有的業務會凍結一半啦"},{"start":10606.926,"end":10608.087,"text":"所以50%你會去與你的優先順序嘛你會去動你的優先順序"},{"start":10619.678,"end":10636.504,"text":"這個是大院到底要不要同意我們使用的問題不是我們能不能留用的問題所以好像每個東西都做一半那你議員你告訴我你現在的議員你要幹什麼我們其他的公共建設的審查或其他的議員還可以優先你講不講得出來議員你要拿來做什麼"},{"start":10637.404,"end":10662.862,"text":"一個部會都有他的預算實際的實際的我們公共建設的審查包括多少錢什麼項目多少錢這有辦法現在提供嗎我們會提供給你好啊那你就告訴在預算裡面我想你們經過仔細的審查我們都是對那個是兩億的狀況嘛對不對那現在你只有一億你會一億優先用在哪些項目我想知道嘛因為目前金子獎可能不辦嘛對不對那你其他東西就會把這一億花光嘛"},{"start":10663.868,"end":10683.29,"text":"不是一億發光這個一億就是其他業務都各使用一半的情況之下其他的業務也許可以這樣辦一半同意再來辦這個金職獎就一件事情而已現在要嘛辦接受報名然後做一些準備那如果說大院等到今年10月才同意解凍那我們還辦什麼金職獎"},{"start":10684.471,"end":10698.085,"text":"好沒關係那主委如果說你現在現場提不出來我們這一億目前的規劃要做什麼的話規劃很清楚在預算書裡面大院在審查的時候那是兩億的狀況嘛現在已經是一億嘛對不對那你就會後給我給個書面資料我們優先一億會用在哪些項目那你要說每個項目都50%我也可以接受啊"},{"start":10707.054,"end":10735.499,"text":"對不對這總是我要知道你50%你要怎麼花嘛我才會看後續的結凍案要怎麼結凍我們的預算使用每一個科目都很清楚而且委員應該有這個預算書啦有啊當然有啊但我不確定你我們沒有辦法跟委員報告說哪些要優先使用就是同商50%嘛對不對那我想知道在不結凍的情況下你50%會用在哪嗎就這麼簡單而已現在我可以跟委員報告其他的科目呢可以用一半但是靜止獎沒辦法用一半再來考量說大院要不要同意"},{"start":10735.759,"end":10751.642,"text":"好 沒關係 那就會後再給我明確的資料每一個細項好 那另外我想確認一下就是解凍三層你們的因為當初是說三層嘛 對不對剛剛主委也有一直強調這個院會的決議嘛 你們要遵守那三層的部分其實現在也三月了啦你們大概用多少了我們我們業務費 對 業務費"},{"start":10764.016,"end":10778.086,"text":"所有的業務費你們用到多少了因為我們想知道就30%嘛對不對你現在用多少我們會遵照大院的決定使用30%我們就會嚴厲來提解凍案那我剛才說得很清楚"},{"start":10779.787,"end":10798.685,"text":"所以現在你們不確定現在動之幾趴了怎麼樣解凍我們還不知道大營料我們沒關係這會後也可以給資料會後給資料你目前動之幾趴這對我們來說應該很重要啊因為你們30趴才能送嘛你們應該要很清楚現在動到幾趴結果現在花了多少錢好像也沒有辦法很明確的講因為如何解凍程序我們還沒辦法掌握啦"},{"start":10798.905,"end":10823.152,"text":"但你們都可以先準備嘛就包括你們的報告我們當然會準備都可以先準備包括委員的溝通也私底下都可以溝通嘛程序當然是到了哪時候都可以先走但是很多事情可以溝通的時候就先溝通嘛目前至少委還沒有接收到櫃會來跟我辦公室說要溝通後續的結婚的狀況嘛預算審查的時候在交通委內已經每個委員都有溝通而且交通委內已經審閉了如果說"},{"start":10825.529,"end":10853.428,"text":"即使講要不要辦我們還要再到大院兩百多個人所以你解通案就是直接送來你也不打算跟院會溝通嘛是不是你們也不打算再溝通嘛是不是溝通就是復議成功那個才是溝通因為你都已經決定是復議了所以到時候你們就直接行政院就送來然後就看你們立法院要不要過嘛就這樣子沒關係啦這個是那個這本來就是你們的權利嘛要不要溝通本來就是你們的權利嘛不是溝通不是要不要溝通你這個復議如果同意復議才有溝通的空間嘛"},{"start":10854.309,"end":10873.608,"text":"啊你都已經溝通不接受復議嘛不接受復議那個案就會報我指的是解凍案啊解凍案啊我指的是解凍案解凍案就是在預算案的主決議裡面就在預算的主決議裡面所以你不接受復議那就是那個那個案也是在那個主決議但是你後續還是要來解凍嘛對不對你還是會申請嘛"},{"start":10874.741,"end":10892.186,"text":"我們當然會遵照大院的指示到目前為止還沒有打算想溝通我想確認一下你們會不會有意見你不可以你認為你們不需要那沒關係這就是你們的態度我們還不理解怎麼行使這個解凍程序很多公共工程其實在"},{"start":10893.146,"end":10920.447,"text":"例行性的很多公共工程其實譬如說地方政府的地方道路的養護等等的他們不會等到預算過了才發包他們也不會等到譬如說今年114年度到了才發包他們可能都會在去年發包那並且在這個招標文件裡面可能說明這個預算就是有條件的嘛是預算通過後或者是我們是不是說付諸是預算解凍後來先行做這個相關的發包程序你們有這是"},{"start":10921.788,"end":10930.767,"text":"可不可以這樣做跟你們程序上可不可以這樣跟你們會不會這樣這兩個部分可以說明嗎有條件的決標是可以做的有條件決標可以做嗎所以說我們有打算要做嗎"},{"start":10932.996,"end":10957.954,"text":"這個是有錢的狀況之下我知道有預算已經有啦然後什麼時候解凍就可以花嘛對不對可是不知道會不會解凍啊所以你可以有條件大院沒有給我們一個能不能用啊所以我們如果掛那個條件結標掛有條件的結標你說可以嘛對不對可以但是錢在哪裡對所以你可以先招嘛但是就是錢在哪裡我沒有錢的情況之下沒有辦法辦理這個有條件的結標如果"},{"start":10958.856,"end":10960.12,"text":"如果給你錢了你還有條件幹嘛啦就是你還不確定你有沒有錢的情況下才是有條件啊"},{"start":10965.267,"end":10992.406,"text":"我們不是私人機關我們每一筆支出都要有預算都要大院同意所以所有的地方政府在預算還沒有過的情況下你剛剛說可以那現在好像又不行那個是預算通過了沒有通過預算沒有通過沒有人敢做這種決標啦他們都會預算沒有通過沒有一個政府敢做這種決標啦所以不能夠付諸嘛我想你如果待過議會你會知道對所以不能夠付諸我第一點就是跟主委確認這件事有預算"},{"start":10993.326,"end":11006.944,"text":"才能夠這種有條件的決標比方說我環評通過才來執行沒有說等預算通過再給所以有條件的範圍不包含預算我們預算不知道就是條件是可能其他條件不包含預算確定要有預算才能上網報告標這個沒有人敢來標啦確定齁"},{"start":11009.006,"end":11025.455,"text":"確定所以是其他單位如果說以後看到相關的相關的這個有關預算的有條件我都報到工程會來那個條件是其他的條件我都來對對對這不是這個預算對對對我知道我清楚主委的意思就是其他的條件您剛剛講的可能環評之類的但是預算這一點公家機關絕對不行應該是這樣子嘛"},{"start":11027.372,"end":11047.678,"text":"因為他沒有預算沒有通過我印象中應該有一些所以我請教主委如果說我記錯了那可能是我記錯了如果說未來我再發現的話我再提供給主委那不好意思再用一點時間最後一個這個基隆捷運這個現在在交通部那主委不知道有沒有注意到相關的新聞原本的預算大概700億當初行政院核定那最後"},{"start":11049.639,"end":11057.331,"text":"對 地方政府評估到1200億嘛那最後如果說現在提到交通部的意思就是說你先按照700億當初核定的預算規模來報"},{"start":11059.217,"end":11079.913,"text":"來報交通部那交通部合了之後會送到工程會但實際上他可能會到用到一千二兩百億那我們工程會後續的意見會認為這個差距過大嗎希望他先提這個修正報告我指的修正報告就是那個整體的這個基隆捷運的修正報告再來工程會嗎還是說我們也可以先走那最後再來提修正報告"},{"start":11080.613,"end":11097.472,"text":"我們是審查他的基本設計啦這個基本設計當然牽涉到他這個費用吧也許是這個案是修正計畫是不是是修正計畫鐵道局建議整個工程經費核定了之後再提修正而且 對他們希望今天按700億來提"},{"start":11098.72,"end":11122.891,"text":"那提我們就審他的基本設計啊你就審他700億嘛你不會針對整個計畫我們就針對工程項目有沒有合理來去審的現在中央政府大概錢的使用是受到很大的限制啦沒有我們是專業審查嘛對不對對OK好那我就確定一下我們不會因為700億跟1200億的差別造成審查上面這些我們就看交通部送什麼樣的基本設計我們就這個基本設計來審我們就審工程對好以上了解謝謝主委好謝謝主席"},{"start":11124.107,"end":11143.795,"text":"好 謝謝廖先祥委員現在請喜護魁委員執行謝謝主席 有請我們陳主委好 陳主委"},{"start":11150.895,"end":11170.561,"text":"委員長 主委早 主委辛苦我認識的主委 這個過去不管從中央到地方的歷練 擔任過很多的職務那甚至在這個政治的歷練上面 是我很敬重的一個前輩今天看到你 在想起 很不甘的 很認的 不會生氣啦"},{"start":11172.834,"end":11196.212,"text":"主委我想從剛剛我們看到前面幾位委員在質詢過程裡面我想又要馬而飛又要馬而不吃草那是不可能的事情尤其我們公共工程委員會兼顧的這個全國包含公共建設許多方面的包含採購預算的一些監督很多的一些重大工程的一個督促我們扮演很重要的一個角色"},{"start":11196.952,"end":11221.471,"text":"現在我看這預算連連5億多包含目前凍結跟刪除大概有高達21%的部分主委前幾天我們看到我們在野黨的召委在運會的時候有點名了我們好幾個部會主委有用點到沒有那一天你是說副總召那天沒有因為我們工程會是預算是很少"},{"start":11223.908,"end":11230.952,"text":"零頭而已但是我認為工程會的預算很重要21%如果凍結又不解凍之後這個澳幣會慷慨主委你認為澳幣會慷慨?因為這五億齁其中業務費是兩億嘛凍結一半"},{"start":11243.76,"end":11262.635,"text":"那業務會是雖然我們並沒有資本支出啦我們沒有我們自己不發包工程但是這個業務會是再來督導或者是查核或者是管控所有的公共建設他的發包他的品質他的進度或協調爭議禮約等等要做這些事情"},{"start":11263.636,"end":11287.685,"text":"相對來講2億3億一半剩下一億嘛就是我們有一半的工作沒辦法做假設我今天我們的相關處要去看100座橋樑那我的業務已經凍結一半我只能去看50座橋樑啦就是一半那這樣影響所及我們今年我們今年納管的公共建設7700億嘛就1億以上的才納管其他各機關至於納管"},{"start":11289.386,"end":11315.883,"text":"7700億的公共建設如果凍結我們一半的業務費意思就是說我們只能先管控3300億的公共建設其他3300億的預算是沒有經費去管控的啦主委這就是本席擔心的問題啦剛剛你在業務簡報裡面有特別提到除了我們過去我們關切這個公共建設的進度之外那我想很重要就是我們賴總統提出均衡台灣這個政策"},{"start":11316.744,"end":11334.738,"text":"我想這個工程會也扮演很重要的一個角色還有我們現在兩名七月份颱風季節來臨的時候我們萬一有一些復健工程我們現在要去勘栽要去做一個審查的時候我看連年出差會就突然迷迷茫茫的這後面要怎麼出差要怎麼看這個問題"},{"start":11338.045,"end":11364.619,"text":"凱米颱風各縣市都受到影響零四零三花蓮地震零一二一台南地震那這些跟這個災後重建復建有關的工程都必須要工程會來統合所以一定要到縣地去看然後其他機關主計或相關主管機關去看然後再來協助地方政府說這個大概可以補助多少地方政府把這些案送到工程會我們還去審"},{"start":11365.76,"end":11386.462,"text":"這個地方補助多少這個地方補助多少假設呢這個預算確實已經凍結沒辦法解凍那我們迅起來了今年的重大風災或其他的這個要重建的時候會影響到我們出勤的人數跟這個能力啦所以這裡面的確會受影響"},{"start":11388.517,"end":11415.223,"text":"陳友主委剛剛講的金職獎 大家都在問金職獎不能做一半 不能辦一半那你勘栽能夠只有勘上半年 下半年不勘嗎如果說是2億的預算凍結一半 剩下一億那其他的 其他剛才有尾算能不能調當然是可以調 就其他的經常性的我這邊稍微調一下 這邊挪一下盡量使用到一半但是金職獎這部分沒辦法調"},{"start":11416.883,"end":11445.487,"text":"金職獎沒辦法說我只使用多少以後同意再來辦如果我把其他的業務調到金職獎來那看起來是可以問題是在預算還沒有能不能解凍不知道的情況之下會互相排擠嘛排擠到其他的業務所以這個也是金職獎我們這個考慮在沒有獲得答應支持預算解凍的情況之下有可能今年會評估停辦的原因"},{"start":11446.207,"end":11469.58,"text":"是這樣子所以我認為公共工程委員會我們的業務也都非常非常的重要那除了公共工程委員會之外相關的各部會也會面臨這樣子預算如果不解凍我們很多業務真的受到影響這真的是要講清楚說明白了那我們這邊也呼籲我們幫我們交通委員我們的林朝偉跟我們的徐朝偉我們都會來希望來倒三天讓我們的案子今天可以來做處理"},{"start":11471.201,"end":11486.213,"text":"那主委我想我們屏東縣這個去年我們來做的一個橋樑的一個檢測那其中全國一年裡面要檢測U3的橋樑有1461座那屏東縣是排名第二我們有"},{"start":11488.375,"end":11511.577,"text":"197座的橋樑必須要做一個一年要做處理那另外U4等級的部分就是嚴重損害的部分我們也是排名第二有兩件那剛剛主委說這個未來這個預算面臨這樣的一個困境怎麼樣協助屏東縣政府來做這樣的一個財政的一個處理然後甚至針對維修的橋樑的一個安全的部分來做一個檢測"},{"start":11514.097,"end":11530.925,"text":"我們會要求這個相關的橋樑的主管機關包括縣政府也好或專案機關也好U4的部分要立即處理啦立即改善U3的部分我們希望在迅速報未來一年內要改善的計畫到工程會來列管"},{"start":11531.946,"end":11551.206,"text":"主委那剛剛已經講過了就是我們現在運營所一年只有抽查300座我想這數量真的是不足啦怎麼樣去強化這樣的一個檢測它的維修機關或上級機關會去看然後每兩年至少要去查核一次啦是啊這本身我們又來幫忙看部會來督促一下對"},{"start":11552.711,"end":11569.598,"text":"我們會要求相關的主管機關或維修機關一定要依法依相關規定每兩年要去檢測一次好 不然我們還是維護我們的車輛安全那我想根據主計總出這個物價的一個指數那2021年我們漲了10.94%2022年漲了7.36%"},{"start":11576.781,"end":11591.587,"text":"去年1.74%然後我想這樣的一個工程物價指數的不斷上漲我想對於我們的營建業者造成很大的一個壓力尤其我們很多公共工程的發包這注意最清楚的這都面臨很多這個預算的一個問題"},{"start":11593.087,"end":11611.755,"text":"這個我在去年的時候在這邊有請教過主委要怎麼樣來協助我們這個屏東縣政府來做這樣的一個合理性的一個招標然後能夠讓我們很多的供應工程能夠順利那主委面對我們這個物價上漲的速度我們物條的部分這部分要怎麼樣的協助"},{"start":11614.036,"end":11640.259,"text":"是如果已經執行完畢了那造成禮約爭議啊那麼工程會會協助來調解啦來執行後來調解如果在執行中的因為誤調的這個主張那麼縣市政府或主辦機關他可以提改就修正計畫修正計畫看主管機關來核定是不是能來再來修正相關的預算"},{"start":11641.625,"end":11664.234,"text":"因為主委也很清楚屏東縣的狀況我們有原鄉有橫空半島偏鄉然後還有離島地區所以我們針對所謂的很多相關的這個物價成本都比其他地方要更高所以我們提出來的部分也希望我們主委這邊能夠全力來協助不過因為現在有些已經本來已經核定"},{"start":11665.442,"end":11690.21,"text":"或者是已經準備核定的重大的工件那麼因為預算不知道還有財劃法的執行都有的會有暫停所以也許這一未來這一兩年整個重大工工程發包可能會順延沒有像以前那麼多主委謝謝你辛苦了謝謝好謝謝習副委員現在我們請喜智傑召委"},{"start":11707.456,"end":11718.539,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請主委好 陳主委委員長主委好"},{"start":11720.317,"end":11733.091,"text":"剛聽了很多 也有很多人問了金職獎所以主委你現在的狀況就是金職獎是以目前的預算煽動的狀況是確定沒辦法辦嗎"},{"start":11736.653,"end":11762.833,"text":"金職獎受影響有主要有兩筆預算一個是每一宣費用兩百二十萬歷年來工程會的預算每一宣就是這兩百二十萬這個幾乎沒有改變而且只做一件事情而已就是金職獎辦理的時候去考核整個公共工程會做所以這兩百二十萬完全是針對金職獎對 沒有做其他的那包括包括我們會上架嘛一些媒體辦這個"},{"start":11766.085,"end":11780.324,"text":"表揚的時候會做一些宣傳那這220萬全刪了就表示說我們沒有辦法再去比方說拖播委託什麼媒體去播放這個金職獎內容這一部分是確定的"},{"start":11780.945,"end":11803.688,"text":"那其他就是業務會凍結一半我們不知道什麼時候能夠解凍因為我們預計3月底之前要發包然後呢7月1號要接受報名那這個7月1號接受報名接下來就長達半年啦所有的公共工程會有很多委員去出評去看然後呢要負評所以很多茶盒很多業務會要使用時間很長"},{"start":11805.169,"end":11821.175,"text":"所以如果這個預算不確定的話那就造成要報名的這些廠商他不知道要不要報名所以我們才是很困擾的原因之一因為如果不辦那些廠商有的已經準備很久了所以我們會有壓力但是辦這個錢在哪裡是沒辦法簡單講"},{"start":11826.234,"end":11846.991,"text":"這個辦不辦不能用說大院解凍不解凍來作為依據啦一定是有預算我們才能夠去辦這個金職獎否則的話風險很高實在有困難唉 其實我看剛剛主委有曾經生氣過坦白講我也很不爽啦"},{"start":11849.881,"end":11868.068,"text":"其實金字獎我大概了解一下你們總共大概要1060萬嘛那剛剛主委提到220萬是媒體宣傳費嘛所以藍白統三的全部的議會各個部會都刪掉30%到70%那你們的刪掉50%算是中間啦那這個其實跟無目標殺人一樣的意思啦我們要針對哪個"},{"start":11878.257,"end":11894.543,"text":"部會 我就所有的部會全部都刪掉30到70然後藍白的講法就是說我沒有刪掉你這一筆金職費用金職獎530萬你們的預算那其他的相關的人會碰到的他就全部都亂刪 刪到的也不知道那還講說什麼金職獎他們沒刪那講什麼租屋補推他們沒刪講什麼那個幼教幼兒福利什麼他們沒刪"},{"start":11908.991,"end":11917.077,"text":"嘴巴都講梅山 把業務費全部所有的各部位都刪掉30%到70%這叫做梅山 讓你沒做事啊就等於說一個人說我都沒有跟你砍斷手腳啊但是我把你手腳全部都綁著啊讓你沒做事啊坦白講 其實我本來諮詢 要好好的諮詢你金指甲怎麼辦"},{"start":11938.166,"end":11943.59,"text":"結果聽到你們這樣回答其實我就一肚子氣辦了25年的金職獎今天如果因為藍白亂三你們的業務費造成這個沒有辦法辦所有全國的工程界情何以堪我呼籲全國的工程界特別的注意這個金職獎的辦理"},{"start":11967.299,"end":11980.049,"text":"這個是要鼓勵做得好的你們還有兩筆 另外一筆也被動了另外一筆其實就是那個剛剛富奎委員問到的你們公共工程的監督控管這個部分你們也是只能做一半"},{"start":11988.094,"end":12011.161,"text":"這個所謂的納管將近七千七百億嘛所以是分配到各縣市離島都有那加上有時候風災訊起來了要去勘災等等包括進度啊等等所以如果說動一半的話勢必另外一半呢就要等大院解凍之後才能去勘但是有時候比方說風災地震"},{"start":12013.457,"end":12041.844,"text":"這個沒有辦法等到解凍才能去啊所以這部分就也會造成困擾其實我真的也不知道怎麼問你啦因為這個都是攬擺亂山的問你你也很難回答啦但是我今天去講的時候我會表達很大的氣氛啦所有的手腳用繩子通通綁起來說你們可以把繩子解開啊什麼時候解開不知道啊"},{"start":12044.335,"end":12067.228,"text":"我可能會希望說跟我們黨團再跟國民黨黨團甚至民眾黨團你們乾脆一次院會動的全部都解凍掉啦不然我哪個單位一個單位一個單位要去拜託你一個單位一個單位要去問你一個單位一個單位要去通過再通過院會的程序這沒完沒了而且所有的單位手腳全部都被綁住了怎麼做事啊"},{"start":12071.772,"end":12085.638,"text":"我們南部那個行政服務中心行政院南府中心他們樓下電梯貼了一個什麼你知道嗎請大家走樓梯啦因為那個水電費那些都被刪掉了嘛請大家背樓梯啦這個東西表面上就是說每一個單位攬擺亂刪的預算表面上說我沒有刪你租屋補貼"},{"start":12100.74,"end":12111.331,"text":"現在我們的很多租屋補貼年輕人現在都領不到啊為什麼領不到就是因為業務費啊那你全面刪掉30到70就是混蛋對不起啦 我不是跟你生氣啦我是真的很生氣但是我是針對這個業務費你們被刪了50%吧"},{"start":12124.312,"end":12145.186,"text":"被動了對被動了50%嘛你們是1774.7萬然後200你看喔這個220萬你們的名稱叫什麼媒體你們的名稱叫媒體宣傳會用一年來都這樣變對南白很聰明看到媒體宣傳會用你們都是1450嘛就全三嘛白癡看到媒體的就全三"},{"start":12151.63,"end":12155.012,"text":"我不知道這一個你們後面有括號說這是做金石獎的宣傳嘛我希望說我們會這個是立法院的亂象我們盡快來解決啦那也希望說你們比較辛苦的就現有的資源齁那還是要做準備啦那這個"},{"start":12172.352,"end":12195.565,"text":"凍結的部分我們我會拜託看有沒有機會就提早趕快解凍讓你們把你們的綁住的手腳的繩子有沒有辦法趕快解開啦那不是只有你們單位不能做全國很多很多的單位都不能做事啦就是因為手腳都被綁住啦都是因為業會三十到七十八全部把所有的全國各部位的手腳都綁住"},{"start":12197.423,"end":12220.431,"text":"所以我是建議就是說那個主委您還是金職長我認為還是要辦啦您先做準備啦那我們會看看有沒有辦法盡快來處理掉這一些業務費的問題看有沒有辦法讓金職長能夠繼續辦我們希望大院如果說能夠協助工程會能夠在4月底之前"},{"start":12221.491,"end":12238.873,"text":"4月底之前如果能夠完成解凍那我們的競速我們本來3月底就要發包了嘛那5月來發包然後很明確的7月接受報名那這樣我們就還有時間啦那如果說4月底之前沒有辦法完成解凍那我想我們金職獎就很難辦下去"},{"start":12241.598,"end":12264.926,"text":"謝謝 所以拜託主委還是先預作準備啦那這裡也有民眾黨 我們招委是民眾黨也有國民黨的立委我們希望說這個所有的綁住全國行政的手腳的業務費有沒有機會一次我們來把它做一個大的解決不然這個各單位根本都是手腳被綁住沒辦法做事一起努力啦 辛苦主委 謝謝"},{"start":12267.264,"end":12293.993,"text":"好 謝謝許智傑 張偉來 現在請邱洛華委員執行好 謝謝主席主席有請工程會陳主委好 陳主委委員長主委好"},{"start":12295.188,"end":12310.877,"text":"主委本席看到工程會有主要任務其中有加速公共建設的執行還有提升國家競爭力所以國家的發展關鍵是往往取決於公共工程建設的規劃還有執行那我們快速的回顧到1974年到1979年顧總統"},{"start":12314.987,"end":12341.858,"text":"金國先生他當時推動了十大建設那同時也奠定了台灣經濟奇蹟的基石那從交通能源到重工業然後全方位的提升產業的競爭力那在1979年的時候成立新竹的科學園區也是台灣半導體產業崛起的關鍵是台灣站上全球科技供應鏈的重要位置"},{"start":12342.378,"end":12364.564,"text":"那由此可見公共工程它不僅影響當下的經濟發展長遠來看更決定了國家未來的競爭力還有人民的生活品質那主委關於這一點您認同嗎完全認同委員的高見就是公共建設它除了經濟發展的基礎之外也是火車頭因為公共建設來帶動相關的發展繁榮"},{"start":12367.645,"end":12393.618,"text":"或者是就業等等這是非常重要的我們過去幾年前瞻計畫或者是重大計畫過去幾年是公共建設投入很多包括剛才您所提的金國先生早期的十大建設如果沒有那些十大建設帶動整個基礎的話一步一步奠基起來台灣不會有今天所以公共建設是非常重要的是 主委您提到過去幾年我們來看頭影片"},{"start":12394.819,"end":12422.106,"text":"那從投影片這三個表格的數據我們可以看到過去六年來公共工程的流費標比例都維持在70%以上甚至有個別的工程它的流費標高達14次那此外呢 那它的流費標金額越高那它的 不好意思 採購金額越高它的流費標比例也越高主委您能說明為什麼這個流費標的比例過高"},{"start":12423.246,"end":12451.143,"text":"我想大概有幾個原因第一個就是當然就缺工缺料或者是物價然後如果同時間公共建設很多那當然這個能夠做的工人也好或是營造公司也好他就會去選擇所以就會預算成本就會增加不好意思我這邊先中斷您的那個"},{"start":12451.983,"end":12474.195,"text":"好那您也有提到說因為缺工缺料那其中缺料的問題特別嚴重這也是全球經濟變化跟全球經濟他的環境變化有密切的關係那我們看到目前全球運輸成本持續上升那加上美國川普政府他的關稅政策那未來的物價恐上漲20%那主委您有掌握到嗎"},{"start":12475.696,"end":12501.792,"text":"跟委員報告因為物價的這個小組我並不是召集行政院層級的在召集這個相關的物價沒關係本席要進就是我們最近有幾個公共工程成本大幅提升的案例都顯示他是缺工然後還有缺料然後以及行政流程的拖延對公共建設經費的影響甚至那我們先來看到桃園鐵路地下化"},{"start":12502.992,"end":12514.656,"text":"2020年9月的時候行政院核定經費是1048億那受到營建市長缺工缺料的因素影響他必須來修正計畫那國發會他審議後經費增加了769.08億那總經費高達1817億那原本他2030年完工那現在確定了會延至2033年他的進度也落後了他原本"},{"start":12528.48,"end":12557.452,"text":"預定的進度是42%那現在實際的進度他只有32%那我們再看到另外一個案例捷運三一線延伸到巴德2019年11月的時候行政院他核定可行性評估當時的計劃經費是116.41元到了2024年6月11日的時候國發會核定增加43.59億總經費增加160億那目前已送院核定還在核定中"},{"start":12558.132,"end":12575.098,"text":"那我們再來看到花東花東快速道路2016年當時的可行性評估他估計興建的費用是819.6億那2025年最新可行性評他的可行性報告他總經費上升了3610"},{"start":12577.999,"end":12601.612,"text":"市議員暴增了兩千億那有這些案例我們可以發現漫長的行政流程還有工刑拖延造成進度落後那成本也不斷的上升主委那我們要怎麼因應跟委員報告以台灣鐵路地下化而言事實上他是有經過幾次的修正包括原來是高架"},{"start":12602.372,"end":12617.824,"text":"然後後來改成地下化地下化過程呢有些佔還有調整就是有修正這個修正計畫有一點時間所以呢自然而然供期延長那物價就上漲所以一直飆升"},{"start":12619.145,"end":12640.056,"text":"那這一部分呢我們希望在中央機關能夠做的情況之下就整個縮短審議的流程尤其是原來就已經有計畫了主委您身為工程會主委很清楚嗎在公共建設在中規過後那還有需要還有經過設計的階段然後再來才能進入正式發包動工"},{"start":12641.397,"end":12665.717,"text":"那如果這些程序他一直延宕的話一定會影響供給 也會造成成本上升那本期要跟您討論的是捷運的三陰線我們可以看到2015年捷運三陰線他2015年6月2號中規核定在2016年7月21日正式開工他的行政流程的歷史是415天那如今的三陰線"},{"start":12666.818,"end":12695.666,"text":"今年年底會完工那明明營運然而山陰縣延伸至八德他從2024年9月20日已經報請行政院核定本席也多次向行政院卓榮泰院長還有我們的陳士凱部長反映希望行政院能夠來進促核定已經178天了卻沒有任何進展也毫無音訊本席要請問主委您認為這樣的行政效率合理嗎"},{"start":12700.153,"end":12711.699,"text":"這個三陰縣是不是在國安會還是已經國安會審定了如果三陰縣的話我們工程會會寫審啦,我們沒有審過"},{"start":12714.773,"end":12742.4,"text":"我們還沒有審到了不過現在我們的確有一些困難這個困難我舉一個例子比方說我們去年對有些建設或地方的已經補助已經核定了困難是需要需要大家一起共同來去克服的是什麼樣的困難就是比方說已經核定了核定地方那地方有可能就編列預算準備要但是臨時現在整個現在是卡在行政院"},{"start":12743.28,"end":12751.899,"text":"就是沒錢啦就是沒錢就是未來的錢到底能夠動之多少已經那麼多的主要像您可能沒有掌握到目前不是因為經費的問題"},{"start":12754.676,"end":12773.439,"text":"有核定的也會受影響,不只這個山陰縣還沒核定目前的進度是還沒核定您是工程會的主委,同時也是行政院的政務委員本身希望您也可以以政務委員的身份來向院長"},{"start":12774.68,"end":12792.849,"text":"來反映加速三陰線的核定進度那巴德我們當地的居民也巴德的居民桃園的市民也非常期待捷運同時趕上當地的交通問題那這也是賴清德總統桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的一環那主委您願意"},{"start":12794.049,"end":12821.403,"text":"來向行政院院長反映嗎我們會主動來瞭解相關審議單位包括交通部包括國安會我們願意能夠全力來協助讓他進度快一點讓他進度快一點OK好謝謝主委主委最後剛剛有很多委員提到金指甲有提到刪除媒體費的部分那本席這邊也要再提是因為我們不希望經費都只是集中在特定的媒體希望主委您能夠瞭解"},{"start":12823.066,"end":12849.225,"text":"我們那個220萬只辦一件事情就是金子獎的紀錄跟頒獎沒有其他媒體宣傳因為剛剛委員提到的是因為媒體宣傳費的關係就是我們因為編在媒體宣傳隊事實上我們那筆錢220萬只做一件事情就是金子獎去查核嘛會紀錄那他得獎之後這個紀錄這個工程怎麼樣或者是一些職人就是做這個那些表揚"},{"start":12851.947,"end":12863.72,"text":"坐在這些揭露並沒有做其他OK好謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝邱若驊委員現在請鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":12878.058,"end":12898.727,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列出政府相關官員會長工作夥伴媒體記錄女士先生有請陳主任委員好 陳主委委員長 主委好來我就盡快的開始進行標題你看了來我們先請教一下主委誰是台灣國家安全的最大威脅"},{"start":12901.789,"end":12919.418,"text":"最近總統是不是又講了我們看下一頁國家安全我們如果說國家安全我們只有一個威脅最大就是來自對岸對台灣的不友善很好總統說定義中國是境外敵對勢力提出了五大威脅要因應的十七項的策略工程會怎麼因應"},{"start":12921.954,"end":12941.335,"text":"還在想 來先告訴你速發部早就因應了限制使用危害國家資通安全的產品它在109年的12月就已經對於採購大陸品牌的資通安全設備服務軟體硬體都包含在內好 可是這裡面還包括了什麼不是只是單純的通訊設備施工機具裡面也有"},{"start":12942.256,"end":12956.335,"text":"工程營造的國運社裡面也有啊關鍵基礎設施 航港 航空港口都有工程會要怎麼落實這些沉險在包括了機敏的關鍵基礎設施裡面的工程服務啦 設備採購 你怎麼做"},{"start":12958.393,"end":12979.949,"text":"我想跟委員報告關於這個中資或中國在台灣成立的公司等等這個原本的採購法或相關的規定都已經有很明確的準則跟辦法好 告訴你不夠這個在去年5月有就說港口陳柏安破口關鍵就是設施要檢核治安那時候有一個叫做建華重工"},{"start":12980.689,"end":13007.127,"text":"起重機港口的起重機它是中國製的最重要是裡面的晶片所以後來港務公司他說根據相關的工業控制系統依照這個相關的基準去進行資安集合資安署也說了以後他們為了勞工的職業安全他們對於這些重機具的補助也排除了中國製造很好那麼您知道國土辦認為除了這兩個部門之外還有哪個部門要做嗎"},{"start":13010.769,"end":13036.808,"text":"他說請工程會研修工程採購契約範本這裡面提到說國營工單位 公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製機具進場施作不是採購 連施作都不可以喔以保障資通安全那麼這裡面他認為說要做到這一點的話工程會要適時的研修工程採購這契約範本我講的是維修工程跟營造工程什麼時候做了 研修了沒有"},{"start":13039.831,"end":13042.243,"text":"趕快回答時間我請祖密來回答"},{"start":13044.261,"end":13070.2,"text":"跟委員報告 有關這個部分我們草案已經草擬了 我們兩週以內發布兩週以內 好 很好 主委有進度了 我們看一看所以涉及國家安全的採購標準如何認定這是台電的兩個電廠一個他們寫說本採購是否涉及國家安全他自己填什麼 沒有另外一個台電新拿發電廠他說是否涉及國家安全 他說是是或不是都是台電自己說的算數嗎主委 可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":13071.921,"end":13089.851,"text":"有沒有認定標準這就是你們的問題啦你們基本上工程會沒辦法管到那麼多雖然你們等於要求各單位自行竊竊 自行檢核但是這個檢核禁不起其他第三方的集合這是工程會要去把關趕快把這個機制建立起來 可以嗎 主委"},{"start":13090.471,"end":13104.307,"text":"跟委員報告是否涉及國家安全是一個概念是那我們工程會的採購的規定應該有比較具體的比方說是中資或者是公司這樣子的話採購機關才能夠有能夠培訓"},{"start":13107.23,"end":13135.193,"text":"那如果說有沒有涉及國家安全不然它的上級機關它的主管機關您回去請台電查一查說明這兩件為什麼一件事一件火查清楚再回答可以嗎好好往下看所以呢工程會要這邊怎麼樣你們什麼時候完成據敏感性含治安疑慮的業務範疇及涉及公安權的判定標準它的稽查程序資訊介入範圍公共工程及基礎關鍵設施的施工採購包括它的採購跟服務維修如何防護中國的滲透竊資跟破壞"},{"start":13136.454,"end":13161.025,"text":"可以去研擬嗎我們也跟各機關都有互相在討論包括國安單位包括其他單位那麼他碰到問題的時候我們也會來補強相關的規定希望主委積極一點我私下也請過不同單位包括我們工程會來都是說說而已沒有具體進度剛剛很開心聽到兩週內可以看得到我希望後續的具體進度讓本席知道可以嗎"},{"start":13162.878,"end":13188.297,"text":"但是這個跟委員報告如果說一個概念性的東西應該要比較明確的給我們多一點時間去跟其他機關來討論啦所以是六月您的工作重點之一囉有沒有涉及國安這件事情工程會沒辦法單獨認定當然我們只可以認定他採購的對象或採購的這個希望你們配合把這個標準明定出來可以嗎"},{"start":13198.404,"end":13214.551,"text":"跟委員報告就是說目前當然譬如說是基礎關鍵的設施啊那麼有相關的機關去認定嘛但是在某一些設備裡面到底它屬不屬於涉及到國安呢坦白講並不是工程會我靠你一提啦維修廠的廠商的他的設備進場去維修要不要檢查"},{"start":13216.803,"end":13244.855,"text":"港口的洗重機已經禁止中資的了或者他中資裡面他說裡面沒有設晶片我進去維修我把晶片放上去你查得到嗎這包括服務採購都包括在內不是只有工程採購啊這部門會在工程採購企業裡面去規範但是我的意思是說到底哪一些設備哪一些機具會夾在這些東西的話因為並不是工程會的專業是的那我們當然可以會同其他單位來稍微做一個理解但是最後回歸到工程會給各機關一個準據好嗎"},{"start":13246.556,"end":13266.271,"text":"是好謝謝主委來我們趕快後面一題趕快進行我之前上週才在問建築內設充電樁的爭議租屋大樓有電動車的擔心設充電樁會有公安權危險但是電動車主認為說沒有充電樁我幹嘛買你的租屋大樓這是一個題目但是其實主委要看一下電動車它其實會移動的儲能設施"},{"start":13268.473,"end":13292.027,"text":"其實呢電動車行駛的時間遠少於靜止時間靜止時間它停在大樓裡面就是一個儲能設施可以供應什麼請看下一頁它可以供應一個虛擬電廠的需求所以現在呢公有建築物的停車設施應該超前部署去思考不是只處理一個住戶大樓的充電狀的設置而已因為公有建築配合上屋頂型的光電停下的電動車加上EMS系統"},{"start":13294.608,"end":13311.366,"text":"它才會有儲能設施就會成為台電它在分散尖峰離峰設施的一個規範那這個規範呢有很多單位包括台電包括經濟部請問這麼多單位包括內政部包括國土署包括建築研究所包括交通部主委您身兼政委這幾個部會是不是您在協調"},{"start":13312.754,"end":13328.722,"text":"能源的部分不是我督導不過我可以對委員的高見非常佩服啦電動車當然是一個微型的儲能的機制但是呢台電必須配合有智慧型的微電網是的你如果全國性的電網這個電動車作為儲能是沒辦法"},{"start":13332.532,"end":13347.766,"text":"上不去了所以他要有一個區域的微型的智慧型電腦那如果大家都使用電動車的時候那我們電廠的需求自然會降低是的所以這個部分要超前部署來研擬我已經請教過能源署請教過台電請教建築研究所"},{"start":13348.487,"end":13372.316,"text":"他們說呢 這些涉及到跨部會可能不是工程會 必須是曾經的政務委員出面來協調主委可以評估一下嗎 我最後結論兩件事情 請延熙 延毅公共工程及關鍵基礎設施的施工的工程採購落實防渡中國滲透竊資破壞的方案我不要寫一個月啦 請提一個書面報告你們要跟國安單位好好來研究第二個 請政委呢 出面來協調"},{"start":13373.396,"end":13391.894,"text":"公有建築構築停車設施納維虛擬電廠相關規範以及率先施行的方案這個部分也請你們來演繹我不定時間可以嗎好謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝我們宗教兵委員接下來請游浩委員執行"},{"start":13414.563,"end":13440.696,"text":"謝謝趙偉 主席有請陳金正 陳主委好 陳主委委員長主委長那剛才延續著有提到這個國家安全那在政府採購契約是否會認為有無違反那這個當然是回到自由行政嘛我相信任何的民生基礎設施都是屬於國家安全中央一環這樣沒錯吧"},{"start":13443.247,"end":13458.885,"text":"我們希望工程會能做希望比較具體那具體化的話必須要有規範或者是指引或者是對象等等比較具體那國家安全部門必須配合相關單位那我直接想要請教一下主委那像現在目前來講"},{"start":13460.146,"end":13487.837,"text":"在賴清德總統發表談話之後在這30天國際情勢也有非常多的變化包括福建這邊也開始要進行軍演然後中國大陸那邊台灣這邊也是人心惶惶日本九州那邊也要部署長程的導彈我想問一下在賴總統談話之後的這30天有沒有感受到台灣兩岸之間的緊張程度明顯升溫"},{"start":13490.151,"end":13506.296,"text":"鮑賀委員的確不好意思這樣回答啦對岸對台灣的這個不友善跟那個侵略的野心從來沒改變過那我想問一下所以說你是認為有持續升溫了嗎不是我們這個段時間來他的戰機也好軍艦也好隨時要來就來嘛"},{"start":13509.017,"end":13531.997,"text":"這不會是一個友善的因為我們這邊也不是外交國防所以說我是認為你剛才的回答其實也認為持續升溫那我還是再次強調過去馬英九總統執政時期這八年其實是都沒有這些狀況那賴清德總統在發表談話之後其實國家安全我相信不分藍綠大家都重視那包括全民也都重視那在這段期間來講"},{"start":13533.018,"end":13560.507,"text":"我是覺得確實明顯升溫啦所以回到剛才國家安全的這一環那如果說要的話那工程會相關的準則讓大家如果再填寫的話那是要有相關的指引那延續的後面要提問的那剛才你有提到了當然說在這過程中我還是也肯定工程會的同仁啦大家公家機關的公務員大家其實包括主委也是非常的盡力的在把工作做好"},{"start":13561.127,"end":13570.028,"text":"那一直在提到金職獎我在想延續不分藍綠的委員其實都希望金職獎能夠在今年25年到現在能夠持續舉辦這沒錯吧"},{"start":13572.413,"end":13595.868,"text":"當然是因為這個金子獎各界很重視也都長期在準備我們是希望他不要間斷能夠繼續辦好那就希望說主委能夠讓他持續舉辦因為我必須坦白說那在目前來講雖然是動50但是在這個部分他並不是針對金子獎的部分來去動那如果再提到媒體宣傳費我坦白說"},{"start":13597.129,"end":13616.899,"text":"剛才有人有提到說這個部分動的話是不是1450啊或是特定媒體那我旁邊講不要說委員有這麼提到那許多的民眾其實也都會有這樣的疑慮那在任何的一個解凍的一個過程中啊那我就該把這個過去的在第一會期的資料調出來"},{"start":13618.226,"end":13636.884,"text":"那在這裡那時候在解凍案的部分如果說在113年在去年的時候中央政府總預算關於就是工程委員會解凍案等幾案均同意動之提報院會所以在經費的解凍的話它還是有它的文字跟有它的法規"},{"start":13637.865,"end":13662.123,"text":"所以我是覺得到時候你要提解動案我相信不分藍綠啦那其實也絕對都支持著這個金質獎的相關的經費能夠持續來去做一個辦理啊那所以我是覺得在這個金質獎我相信主委跟大家不分藍綠跟許多工程界他們總是特別重視我覺得還是希望是往這個辦理的方向來去進行"},{"start":13663.024,"end":13685.631,"text":"那其實在 我相信媒體朋友不管在現場的或是在辦公室的他們其實也都知道啦 我坦白講在現在的這個預算的這個過程中啊不管是看到行政團隊去下箱旋轉 先圈降許多的機關在民眾的認知上 那他其實感覺起來都有KPI啦"},{"start":13686.351,"end":13715.374,"text":"那其實像總統府的KPI就是他的點心被取消了還或者是總統府不分時間要熄燈了或是不讓民眾來去做這個參觀但是許多單位各式各樣的一個做法來去講這個預算那回頭來講民眾的各自有解讀但是我是覺得在工程委員會其實大家也是在做也是為人民做事啊包括主委"},{"start":13716.095,"end":13734.672,"text":"那所以金職獎的部分在辦理上我覺得如果到最後會變成這個工程會的KPI的話那這個會甚為可惜所以我還是希望說主委能夠往辦理的方向來去進行那至於剛才有委員有提到說這個預算綁住人民的手腳我坦白講"},{"start":13735.453,"end":13758.387,"text":"大家要去思考在過去的這一年那其實我們看到我相信工程會的預算大家在使用上也是盡心盡力所以那時候在交通委員會的甚至好像交通委員會的委員不分藍綠其他都是支持但是我們看到包括救安基金他的這個經費預算拿去辦演唱會包括拿去做室內的高級裝潢"},{"start":13759.528,"end":13786.415,"text":"那包括其實其他單位都有傳出這些預算使用不當的這個問題那我覺得在我們民意代表的角色上本來就是務實來監督來去審查預算所以凍結的部分我坦白講如果今天任何一個民意代表在監督預算的時候那都不去做任何合理監督、理性監督、嚴格監督的情況我相信這也不是全民所樂見那所以說今天綁住的不是機關的預算"},{"start":13787.515,"end":13807.967,"text":"反而是綁住像過去的這些例子那我覺得將來如果合理的部分我們大家一定會支持但是還是要請不管是工程會或是各單位在預算的解凍報告上那還是要盡力的來去讓社會各界寫的東西能夠讓大家能夠接受檢驗那我相信大家也會"},{"start":13808.928,"end":13831.858,"text":"那過去的話其實在解冬區專案的許多報告上其他的單位有些解決就草草一張紙那並不一定把認真的把這個解冬的過程解冬的內容執行的情況有詳細的跟社會社會各界交代那也同樣來這個機會也跟大家就是就是請大家在解冬案未來再提的時候相關的報告我相信這個執行率還包括這個內容來講其實"},{"start":13834.179,"end":13856.855,"text":"預算案大家全民都在看現在都攤在陽光底下我們提了什麼的案子都可以可供檢驗那同樣的未來解凍案的這些書面資料書面報告跟質詢力跟相關的理由事由我相信也是會被社會各界所檢驗啦所以我還是在這裡還是勉勵大家還能夠盡力的來去努力那最後的話我再針對這個35座橋樑被評為U4整齊那南投的綠美橋有沒有在名單之內"},{"start":13861.898,"end":13891.058,"text":"南投的橋沒有U3 U4的好那目前來講全國的這個部分那相關的近期的橋樑檢測計畫那預計這U4的部分什麼時候可以把它完全修復U4就是要立即處理所以我們會通知那個主管機關或者是維修的機關要最迅速的來處理那其他的一年內要處理的我們會請這些機關提他的維修或者是改善的計畫"},{"start":13892.039,"end":13900.313,"text":"好那最後的話就是本席針對剛才有提到推動淨零建築的部分那請問一下工程會目前的立場跟進度為何"},{"start":13901.917,"end":13924.625,"text":"淨零是我們政府的總目標2050那我剛才的說法是這樣就是說有排碳有固碳希望能夠綜合以公共工程來講他的目標不會是只有淨零排碳這件事情他有安全有結構安全有方便有設計所以這是一個總目標的最適設計所以不能說以"},{"start":13925.725,"end":13942.035,"text":"排碳為唯一的目標讓其他的設計要配合這個排碳那其他的結構安全怎麼辦呢比方說鋼構一定比磚排碳更多那難道我們都以排碳為目標所以所有的房子都要磚造嗎不是嘛"},{"start":13942.395,"end":13969.029,"text":"所以它是一個綜合的設計那淨零當然我們要重視所以我們全生命週期的包括這個建材它在生產過程這個在開採過程或者是我們就地取材減少運輸那綜合的來把這個碳能夠減下來這是我們目標我們也會全力以赴也會督導其他的所有的主辦機關來注意到關於排碳這件事情要自我檢核"},{"start":13970.37,"end":13998.165,"text":"好那因為這是剛才延續洪孟愷委員所提問的那讓你能夠補充說明那本席也希望在江灣的建築工程的話公共總委會絕對是專業中的專業但是也由於你也就是身兼政委員以及過去對地方上面機關上面也都非常熟悉業務那這個兩者之間的平衡那還是有待組委會來來講來推動還也可以跟後續跟委員會大家再做個報告好謝謝"},{"start":14001.701,"end":14027.812,"text":"好謝謝尤浩委員現在請陳俊宇委員執行好謝謝主席我們有請主委好請陳主委"},{"start":14034.122,"end":14060.855,"text":"主委吳安委員長主委高鐵延伸宜蘭這是對於整個環台高快速路網一個很重要的一個區塊那對於這個近期內我們對於這個高鐵要延伸宜蘭也有許多討論的一個過程那總經費也從一開始的近千億到現在已經上看可能要到四千億了"},{"start":14061.815,"end":14090.907,"text":"那現在在坊間常常都會聽到一句話就是說現在不做以後就會後悔那我相信這個對於這個我們這個國家的一個重大建設的一個推動我覺得應該是永續的一個進步的一個程序那礙於這個財化法的這個修正我們現在擔心這個高鐵延伸到宜蘭的部分相關的期程會不會延誤到"},{"start":14092.761,"end":14116.841,"text":"給委員報告因為北北基於成為一個台北市首都生活圈的一個這樣的計畫所以關於交通高鐵延伸宜蘭市是有其必要所以也是行政院的重大政策那我是工程委員會的主任委員我當然有權利來督導或來建立或來指示"},{"start":14118.633,"end":14139.734,"text":"這一這個國家的重大建設那因為我擔任政務委員同時也督導交通部內政部環境部所以我當然也希望這個國家的重大建設如期如止的來完成那目前的進度就是環境影響評估報告書二階的部分交通部鐵道局已經完成了那麼送環境部來審查"},{"start":14141.235,"end":14162.704,"text":"那因為這個高鐵是當初直線鐵路可行研究的替代方案所以後來鐵道局也補了一個修正計畫就是說這個可行的修正計畫他繞過翡翠水庫的這個集水區目前都在進行中那所以呢我因為這樣的角色"},{"start":14163.444,"end":14187.295,"text":"我督導這樣的一個工程我們希望這個工程如期就是希望他這個今年啦年底之前行政院能夠核定那核定之前呢必須要通過環評所以我對於環評呢也希望如果沒有其他問題希望他能夠獨立來環評委員會是獨立審查嘛合一審查所以如果沒有相關的問題希望他能夠"},{"start":14189.657,"end":14194.481,"text":"來競速來審查審議這個環評案所以目前進度不會受影響"},{"start":14195.353,"end":14218.917,"text":"好謝謝主委我希望說這個高鐵延伸宜蘭的部分一定無論如何要拜託主委督導的部分一定要落實為什麼因為不能再等了已經等那麼久了那好不容易我們已經走到這個階段了這我相信是所有宜蘭人引頸期盼對外的一條高快速的聯絡"},{"start":14219.918,"end":14236.02,"text":"連絡道路啦那也可以讓未來我們要還台六小時的一個交通路網趕快做一個銜接的一個這個東部的一個一個山鐵公共站的一個起點那我希望說這個部分要無論如何拜託"},{"start":14236.6,"end":14262.557,"text":"主委在這個督導方面一定要確實的掌握那個期程沒錯就是說過去東西部建設不平均賴總統他均衡台灣的理念交通建設是中二一環如果今天高鐵能夠延伸到宜蘭他將來有一天就會延伸到花蓮就會到台東就會連接到屏東那麼台灣呢"},{"start":14264.374,"end":14285.167,"text":"這個整個台灣由高鐵來串聯我覺得這個是對台灣是一個好事他不只是東部人的高鐵任何人也會到東部是全國在使用的全國人民重大的一個交通建設所以到宜蘭或者是南邊到屏東只是一個起點將來就會到台東將來就會到花蓮是好"},{"start":14288.171,"end":14311.367,"text":"另外要拜託政委就是我們的環山步道那因為宜蘭縣的這個山邊這個山上的步道非常的這個完善只是欠缺串聯那當然在政委您提出要建置這個環山步道之後已經陸續都有成效出來那五年內完工的部分會不會對於這個財務法會帶來什麼影響嗎"},{"start":14315.813,"end":14338.866,"text":"這個環山步道就是納入國家綠道就是整個希望過去有歷史文化的步道或有觀光價值有健行價值的把它串聯起來那宜蘭的這個環山步道指的就是淡蘭古道就是當初到宜蘭開墾的先民是走淡蘭古道一直到蘇花古道"},{"start":14339.446,"end":14364.021,"text":"那麼沿著山邊能夠形成五環那麼由中央相關單位跟宜蘭縣政府來協助這部分的經費是不多那大概是有的都是一千萬以內所以我們盡量克服來希望這個六年之內來完成在宜蘭的這個環山步道的五環提供給北部民眾甚至所有的民眾到宜蘭"},{"start":14364.861,"end":14387.628,"text":"可以有一個輕旅行或者是到這個整個步道串聯不管露營等等都好這提供給服務所有的民眾是北起龍嶺步道到南至這個蘇花谷道310公里那這個構想提出之後我要跟主委您報告就是很多登山客都在期待"},{"start":14388.308,"end":14411.577,"text":"期待這一條步道可以真的盡早來打通讓他們在登山休閒的過程裡面有一個新的選擇那從這個環山步道要觀看整個太平洋是非常漂亮的尤其我們宜蘭這個山景跟平原的這個景色是在全國來看是獨一無二那我也在此也是在懇切拜託我們主委對這個部分"},{"start":14413.378,"end":14438.244,"text":"來督導我們相關部會包括東北角風景區管理處還有林保署以及縣政府能夠對於這個工程的配合儘早來完工這個環山步道是20年前就已經規劃完畢了所以一直延到現在我們重新啟動希望能夠儘速來完成好 謝謝主委好 謝謝我們陳俊宇委員現在請李博義委員"},{"start":14440.029,"end":14446.833,"text":"李博義委員李博義委員好現在請張祺凱委員執行請陳主委"},{"start":14471.51,"end":14490.121,"text":"我看你可以一直人在問你這個公共工程金職獎這個事情其實你做過在法院你才知道凍結要解凍是很容易的事情而且長久以來你印象中有凍結的案子到後來沒有解凍的嗎"},{"start":14491.791,"end":14496.295,"text":"主要是兩件事第一個從來沒有說要求院會同意使得動資這件事情立法院"},{"start":14508.846,"end":14524.175,"text":"也許從南京成立立法院到現在查一下看看有沒有說要求立法院解凍到議員會去解凍的很多其實有啦你有誤解了有有立法院送到議員會解凍的很多其實很多很多"},{"start":14525.155,"end":14540.752,"text":"那第二個就是說平常我們在委員會因為大家都很熟識業務很了解那委員們也認真審查這個業務所以在委員會解凍溝通很容易啦所以才不會去真正去嚴肅去"},{"start":14542.233,"end":14563.356,"text":"想說解凍這件事情合憲或合法在委員會是OK啦講一下所以如果那麼嚴肅提高到院會來決定我們看立法院之前新司法院會能夠審理的只有幾項宣戰、構合、預算法案及其他國家重要事項所以難道我們要求工程會"},{"start":14564.457,"end":14590.445,"text":"一億或幾千萬的解凍案算要報到院會去解凍屬國家重大事項嗎這份倒是其實每一年都有一些案子是送到院會去要求解凍老蔣也非常簡單沒有困難我就看了你這個案子最重要是你被凍結的理由是什麼如果是合理的又很簡單的你就不能夠好像是情的讓我們那些民間團體"},{"start":14592.233,"end":14615.824,"text":"覺得說好像是立法院去砍了他的預算啊你應該把它交代清楚啊你知道你這邊為什麼你的業務費被凍結了50%你沒看那個案例喔注意 你知道你為什麼被凍了50%嗎你應該去看提案啊這個提案很容易解開啊我點給你聽啦 來 看這個"},{"start":14618.675,"end":14628.597,"text":"現在上一張來上一張給主委看一下來來來解凍的條件你看清楚了嗎來為什麼會凍了公共工程業務費為什麼會凍了50%因為根據112年審計會的審計報告上面說的他說什麼他說你們公共工程這個資料庫沒有提供結標的價格對應的標的資訊跟底價的金額"},{"start":14648.834,"end":14652.719,"text":"他要你這個提出來啊 因為這通過 因為這很困難對不對這個難做嗎 甘不難做第一 審計部的決算報告 標示合理"},{"start":14664.571,"end":14680.983,"text":"合情有需要嘛 對不對所以他要求用這個理由要你做這件事情合理嘛他要你解凍的理由很簡單啊你就照這樣做把這個資料庫建立起來送到立法院來報告這個很簡單的對你來說可能一天就做好事了是不是"},{"start":14692.476,"end":14711.976,"text":"所以 指揮 我知道你很努力 你也為了動50%在耕耗 我知道啦問題你如果把這個提案內容弄清楚好不好 你可以這樣說啊 你說你很努力要解凍對不對你趕快把這個案子 這幾天就做好了嘛有兩個管道嘛 你看我們的"},{"start":14712.918,"end":14721.382,"text":"你交通委員會這麼幸運 你有這麼英明 理性的召委林國聰在這裡你拜託他幫你擺啊 但是你也要拜託韓院長幫你擺啊是不是 這個有困難嗎 會不會 不會嘛報告委員就是說 我剛剛講過 院會來處理委員會審查過的預算"},{"start":14735.026,"end":14764.121,"text":"是還要同意使得動之這件事情的確是很少見啦也很難執行我坦白講到現在為止貴院大院都還沒有明確說這個關於預算院會同意使得動之這件事情來教導行政院教我們應該怎麼提案 教導不敢啦 不過你人言那好 你現在去找韓院長或者是提出來 我跟你講立法院這個事情也不會拖啦我給大家看一個資料"},{"start":14768.627,"end":14779.043,"text":"這個資料你們一定有印象113年啊被凍結的預算交通部傻傻一餅他在什麼時候解凍大家知道嗎4月18號"},{"start":14782.228,"end":14806.746,"text":"4月18號交通這個決議叫什麼113年度中央政府總計算管理交通部主管凍結案有多少股泥113年度31項一天在交通委員會開完會就解凍啦解凍因為是宴會交下來了嘛親同意動資提報宴會交通部有31項就過啦你公共工程委員會股泥應該也有凍結啊你是幾個案過來審完就過啦"},{"start":14809.295,"end":14836.843,"text":"那更不要講院會啦院會到時候一定是把你你凍結最主要就是這個業務費嘛對不對我剛講過啊審計部要求的第一對他來說很簡單的啊那我看你的工作同仁工作人員應該很強啊你交代一下這個案子明天就擬好了啊應該是4月18號以前應該可能就解凍了吧所以不用第一個不用擔心你們有好的召委立法院也一定會盡速去通過嘛其實重點要強調喔"},{"start":14839.663,"end":14863.012,"text":"內容要看因為審計部為什麼這樣要求立法院為什麼要這樣要求啊我剛剛講的嘛 你也點頭嘛 對不對他的要求是合情合理合法嘛 對不對啊對人家講很容易做嘛那就趕快做啊你來這邊不是一直在解決是在你是在解決問題了啊不是一直在解釋問題或者製造問題啊好不好先弄到民間連那個金詞獎金詞獎已經辦了幾屆了二十四屆第一屆五屆這樣你如果照預算法的規定"},{"start":14868.516,"end":14890.772,"text":"我們的總預算到現在還沒完全過總統還沒公告預算法裡面有明定啊 法定的預算啊延續性的預算本來就可以延續啊你已經說24屆辦25為什麼不行我今年是算第25屆所以預算指的是今年的預算他就是要延續性的嘛 尤其這不能反對啦僅此講這麼好的一個獎項 對不對"},{"start":14894.773,"end":14905.541,"text":"他如果是特優我看那個特優他以後去外面那個比價的時候他那個底標省二分之一耶對不對而且都很有榮耀啊總統還頒獎啊"},{"start":14907.347,"end":14909.928,"text":"我剛才已經有說明了就是如果4月底之前"},{"start":14930.193,"end":14951.546,"text":"預算能夠獲得解凍那金職獎繼續辦如果10月底之前預算沒有解凍那金職獎今年恐怕沒辦法辦另外我跟委員報告就是說以這個黨團提案然後說主決議是院會同意使得動之這件事情完全百分之百侵犯了委員會的權責"},{"start":14953.107,"end":14967.551,"text":"委員會所有的預算在委員會已經審閉了包括凍結凍結這是第一個我們最好不要經常有這樣的東西主委這沒有侵犯這歷年來的立法院就是這樣運作有些送到委員會凍結解凍有些送到立法院主決議通常是委員會通常主"},{"start":14970.012,"end":14999.172,"text":"主結通常是同意院委員會所提的說委員會解凍啦那第二個就是院很重視你們工程會嘛所以才會送到院會嘛不過最重要其實我剛才講的內容合情合理合法而且很快啦那來我再來講一個觀念我們再溝通一個觀念啦事實上每一年凍結案都很多我剛才講大概113年度高中報的31例啊對不對我剛還特別請請那個指揮你回想一下你當過立法委員有凍結案後來沒有解凍的嗎"},{"start":15001.175,"end":15026.082,"text":"非常少耶 我印象中只有一次啦賴清德因為國民黨去動了那個公共電視的那個預算啦因為賴清德 那時候賴總統是那個幹事長他不願意簽那個解凍後來公視跟一些人民團體就在報紙上登了一個廣告要賴清德 賴幹事長要解凍只有那一筆其他一定如期嘛 所以你不要擔心你的什麼金字獎沒辦法辦啦另外我給大家看一下"},{"start":15030.669,"end":15058.374,"text":"今年啊 凍結的凍結的這個比例啊佔總預算的4.6%我說我從90年開始算那時候你已經在內閣啦90年開始算有8次都比今年的凍結比例都還高了你就算金額有4年比今年都還高啊我剛剛講了都解凍啦所以我拜託一下一方面我是會說這幾天包括行政院長帶著部會首長下去就會講說什麼凍結沒辦法做"},{"start":15060.629,"end":15076.606,"text":"以前就沒有這個問題啊這是第一個我今天要特別強調的第二個你一直在擔心你的金職獎因為我昨天看了報紙還登了大大一個版你趕快跟我們優秀的優良的那些建商講金職獎沒有問題好不好OK好謝謝好主委謝謝"},{"start":15078.66,"end":15107.106,"text":"好謝謝張祺凱委員好接下來張宏祿委員張宏祿委員張宏祿委員不在現在請陳冠廷委員執行我們請主委好陳主委"},{"start":15113.3,"end":15132.316,"text":"委員長主委好 主委其實今天很多委員都不斷強調一個部分就是剛才提到的金職獎那我想確認一下金職獎剛才聽到如果說4月底前解凍那是有機會辦如果4月底前沒有解凍的話有可能會停辦這樣的理解是真的嗎"},{"start":15134.997,"end":15163.524,"text":"所以如果是這樣的話那金職獎對於工程品質他過去是有很多提升的貢獻其實剛才我也不斷的在強調他是國內工程界被視為最高榮譽的獎項所以很多施工單位為了要拼出這個金職獎他們不斷的在對自己的這個做法提供優質永續的公共工程所以他們不斷的在努力就是希望有得到這個獎這個肯定對這些公司企業都是很大的幫助"},{"start":15164.324,"end":15189.206,"text":"所以我擔心的是說如果金紙箱這種激勵的金字如果不見的話加上監理的資源減少那可能會導致一些工程品質甚至會下滑特別是在高風險的嘉義山區的地區的這些建設有什麼措施這個主委你可以想一下有什麼措施可以維持我們的品質的標準有沒有什麼其他的方式或者是在現行的狀況之下我們能做什麼"},{"start":15190.568,"end":15207.481,"text":"這個公共建設工程會可以去考核去督導那全國各縣市都有這樣的工程那如果是中央的工程或是中央補助的工程都可以去所以我們有查核小組等等但是這些業務會也動了一半"},{"start":15208.469,"end":15234.997,"text":"這些業務費也動了所以比方說我們查核的對象全國7700億這些業務費動了一半之後很簡單的計算就是有3400億左右我們沒辦法不知道沒有那些業務費包括包括查集包括什麼都沒有辦法沒辦法去做所以會當然去激活的次數可能會順延那也許就是會慢一點我想這個是也無可奈何"},{"start":15235.777,"end":15256.585,"text":"所以我想要確認一下被凍結的影響因為前一陣子我們嘉義大埔地震其實不是嘉義大埔台南也是地震那對我們這些嘉義山區的重要的一些公共工程可能會造成衝擊現在有沒有知道是哪一些可能急需但是被延宕的防災工程有沒有這方面的了解從台南到嘉義一帶"},{"start":15258.579,"end":15272.459,"text":"這次的地震因為嘉義跟台南的部分屬於地方管的公共工程那麼地方都已經篩準已經夠都已經在執行公共工程的部分中央0121這個地震"},{"start":15274.562,"end":15290.825,"text":"中央的補助還沒有那只有有的是學校有的高中或國中教育部會來協助那這一次比較嚴重的那些平常都是土葛柱有一些磚瓦房的秦島或者是那些你要有正年紀嘛"},{"start":15292.026,"end":15319.536,"text":"烘焙那個年間瓜那些窯有受到一些影響這部分我們正透過政災基金會的錢看能不能來協助那島市呢之前的地震嘉義的確是受損嚴重甘米颱風也好那麼很多山區的遺傳我們也去看過所以我的意思是說我們遺傳不多啦凍結了一半但是影響所及是放大了很多倍的影響"},{"start":15320.782,"end":15340.716,"text":"所以我這個地方還是要請主委能夠更重視我們這個嘉義特別是大埔地區就是受到地震的影響剛才提到的震災基金會的部分那也希望能夠加速就是加寬那當然還是能夠來協助我們的這一個受震災的影響的範圍其實"},{"start":15342.617,"end":15369.292,"text":"近期從台南到嘉義從大埔鄉其實在更之前中埔鄉也有地震中大型的地震那導致很多國中國小那這些校舍都有受到影響所以我們為什麼會這麼重視中央的預算凍結的部分能夠盡速能夠超越之間想一個方法來把它解凍或者是說把預算的部分找出一個方法我們能夠把這些東西解套"},{"start":15369.892,"end":15396.129,"text":"因為是對我們這個防災也好或者是一些工程也好都是非常重要的所以還是希望主委能夠在這個地方來承諾這個對嘉義山區還有台南特別是我們這個真溫水庫周遭的區域這幾個地方這些重要的防災工程的監理絕對不可以打折扣這個不可以跟我們嘉義鄉親台南鄉親都做一個具體的這個承諾"},{"start":15398.264,"end":15418.998,"text":"我們會全力來支援或協助針對這個去年1月21號大埔跟台南尤其水庫旁邊的這些比較弱勢的房子我們也持續在跟兩個縣市政府在談當中會全力來協助好 謝謝"},{"start":15422.298,"end":15450.277,"text":"好 謝謝陳冠廷委員接下來 習新穎委員習新穎委員 習新穎委員 習新穎委員不在賴世保委員 賴世保委員 賴世保委員 賴世保委員不在陳寫生委員 陳寫生委員 陳寫生委員不在好 登記執行委員 經已發言完畢 做以下決定"},{"start":15451.479,"end":15471.469,"text":"一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員以執行之中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請公共工程委員會競速以書面答行以上今天謝謝各位委員各位官員我們會議結束 上會"},{"start":15513.649,"end":15514.012,"text":"感谢观看"}]}},{"id":"16523","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16523","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d826f2beb725bce952042dc10dca826777a524d1b3d409a1a5abe3b21390cac0c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-17","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-17T08:31:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T11:27:00+08:00","duration":10558,"影片長度":"02:55:58","委員發言時間":"08:31:02 - 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出席委員9人 已足法定人數好 我們現在開始開會 請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1893.359,"end":1917.839,"text":"立法院第十一屆第三會期外交及國防委員會第二次全體委員會議議事錄時間中華民國一百一十四年三月十三日星期四上午九時至十一時二十五分地點黃樓山林會議室出席委員盧美玲等十一人內席委員賴慧媛等十八人內席人員國防部部長顧立雄及所屬人員主席黃昭吉委員人報告事項已宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定"},{"start":1918.84,"end":1946.123,"text":"二 邀請國防部部長報告國機國造交機進度及永營高校機失事後檢修情況並被質詢國防部部長顧立雄 空軍司令部參謀長王德陽報告委員羅美林等11人質詢軍有國防部部長顧立雄國防部副部長鍾樹民軍備局局長林文祥主計局局長謝啟賢空軍司令部參謀長王德陽及國家中山科學研究院副院長陳奕辰等即席答覆"},{"start":1946.923,"end":1967.93,"text":"決定一登記質詢在場委員均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束二委員所提口頭及書面質詢為其答覆或要求提供資資訊請國防部於二周內以書面答覆本會全體委員並複製本會委員另指定期限者從期鎖定三委員林毅君王定宇及羅志強所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報宣讀完畢"},{"start":1971.1,"end":1987.375,"text":"好 請問在場委員對於上次會議的議事錄有無遺漏錯誤或需要更正之處好 那議事錄確定齁那請議事委員宣讀報告事項報告事項 邀請僑務委員會委員長許家青報告業務概況便被質詢 宣讀完畢好 謝謝那我們來介紹一下在場的委員齁 這個許巧欣委員黃仁委員"},{"start":2000.083,"end":2017.535,"text":"好 那我們介紹與會的官員好 今天是僑委會 僑委會第一次的夜報那委員長許家青副委員長張良明主任秘書榮佑娥綜合規劃處處長郭淑珍僑民處處長賴立穎僑教處處長林紀榮僑商處處長游凱權"},{"start":2031.896,"end":2057.484,"text":"喬森處處長王怡如秘書室主任邱惠燕人事室主任楊志傑主系室主任林秀燕資訊室主任白忠光政風室主任楊尊仁法規會專門委員徐佑林"},{"start":2060.461,"end":2072.416,"text":"喬烏通訊社社長吳小竹財團法人海外信用保證基金的董事長林保錫財團法人海華文教基金會的副執行長張宇庭"},{"start":2075.796,"end":2100.522,"text":"好 那另外補充一下在本次會議的開會通知單有註明就是有關退府會非營業基金的預算提案因為這個還沒有審那收案的時間是3月25號星期二下午5點以前所以請各位委員在留意一下時間3月25號下午5點以前好 那本日會議邀請僑務委員會徐家青委員長報告業務概況並備質詢那現在請徐委員長上台報告"},{"start":2112.76,"end":2138.486,"text":"召委 各位委員 大家早安今天景榮僑務委員會非常榮幸能夠對近半年來的業務提出報告本會分成今天的報告有前言惠據僑力因應國際局勢的變化第三 聚焦在施政的核心推動僑務工作第四 給予四個段落 敬請指教"},{"start":2139.466,"end":2168.706,"text":"那麼當前全球的政治經濟的情勢變化非常劇烈美國總統川普當選及提出就任之後呢提出貿易關稅等議題對各國的企業半導體AI產業的供應鏈均產生了非常深遠的影響在這樣的挑戰之下海內外的緊密合作就更加重要那我們將與更多的海外僑民第二代第三代國際友人共同來創造區域的繁榮"},{"start":2170.127,"end":2188.866,"text":"同時也要特別感謝全球的僑民無論身在何處都不忘關心台灣的發展尤其最近228紀念活動遺族返鄉團等等都是希望能夠在轉型正義歷史記憶上幫助更多的台灣民主發展這正是僑務工作其中的重要功能之一"},{"start":2190.168,"end":2201.159,"text":"在匯聚僑力因應國際的局勢變化方面僅就下面四個面向向委員說明第一貿易戰頻傳衝擊橋台商海外經營佈局隨著國際環境快速的變化關稅政策對橋台商企業帶來嚴峻的挑戰"},{"start":2208.846,"end":2226.32,"text":"台灣政府正以非紅供應鏈的方式來深化與歐美日等國家合作本會也會積極掌握局勢的變動結合台灣產官學研量能及橋台商在地深耕的優勢來促進橋台商持續的穩健向前發展第二"},{"start":2231.419,"end":2238.345,"text":"中共運用春節活動展開各項文化統戰活動春節期間相關的活動"},{"start":2239.628,"end":2254.255,"text":"承載著豐沛的傳統文化但同時也充滿統戰意涵近期中共透過新春暖新包春節禮金的方式在傳達對僑胞的關懷印象本會則積極透過協府僑團來舉辦各項的親子行春"},{"start":2262.219,"end":2270.743,"text":"帶領家庭的孩子向長輩拜年說明元宵節的文化活動意義等提供春聯小提燈等等讓年輕一輩透過認識與體驗節慶文化增進與台灣的連結第三"},{"start":2277.225,"end":2303.16,"text":"青年世代的崛起重視青年投資未來已經成為國際的趨勢培育青年已成為提升國家競爭力與促進國際合作非常重要的關鍵僑務工作也積極推動往下扎根move to next generation的政策以僑界青年培育計畫交流為策略的核心多面向來拓展青年視野累積人脈來為日後發展提供厚實的基礎"},{"start":2303.84,"end":2326.033,"text":"第四 總和外交形塑國際社會有我的合作氣氛總和外交的策略以打造與理念相近國際夥伴更具韌性合作的網絡全球有我的氛圍正日漸增進中全球的僑界也同時積極的協助台灣爭取各國的支持例如剛剛在3月"},{"start":2328.072,"end":2352.45,"text":"中旬北美洲台灣商會聯合總會舉辦了Capital Hill叩門之旅向美國的70位參眾議員進行拜會由我的政界人士尋求支持台灣參與國際組織或亞洲台灣商會聯合總會也籌組相關的投資考察團拜訪友邦讓台灣成為全球可信賴的合作夥伴"},{"start":2353.803,"end":2379.329,"text":"接下來我們在聚焦施政推動的核心工作上面分以下幾點向委員做說明有七大重點第一首先在提供青年豐富的公眾參與機會方面有青年百億圓夢基金這個計劃本會也參與了相關的提供各種的方案與海外的僑團來合作讓青年能夠在國際翱翔"},{"start":2380.569,"end":2402.743,"text":"第二 我們持續從106年起推動搭橋計畫今年度的搭橋計畫現在正在進行第二階段的面試今年打算以七條路線在五個國家分別有84名搭橋計畫的大學生研究生學員會赴七個不同的城市第三 長期從1100年開始2011年至今我們舉辦了FASCA"},{"start":2408.867,"end":2434.226,"text":"近期又增加了Senior FASCA的計畫在北美洲啟動了相關的青少年的活動養成計畫近年來已經拓展到全球包括中南美洲、非洲、歐洲都有逐漸在擴大當中第四,持續的辦理第四屆的全球青商潛力之星的選拔來提升青年企業家的發展實力第五,海外文教志工"},{"start":2435.006,"end":2464.266,"text":"本會每年都在協輔大專樂校以及民間的團體志工團能夠赴海外尤其在東南亞各地的橋校來進行服務第六持續辦理海外青年英語服務營英語服務營是自2006年即開始辦理至今今年即將邁入第20個年頭每一年的這個近三年來我們的海外英語營報名人數都非常踴躍"},{"start":2465.727,"end":2488.004,"text":"其次我針對在海外僑民與台灣的合作上面分別來跟各位委員報告近期來我們透過出訪海外僑界來強化及擬近僑心後持政府的實力其次以語言與文化的方面與海外的僑團、僑校充分合作來運用台灣的文化優勢"},{"start":2490.025,"end":2510.032,"text":"產業特性促進雙向的交流第三聯繫服務橋台商的組織包括結合世界台商總會世界華人工商婦女企管協會等等的年會平台以台灣為核心來攜手創造海內外的商機第四鏈接所有17萬的留台校友網絡強化他們的各國的會務運作以及增進畢業僑生協助推動相關的政策"},{"start":2518.815,"end":2527.524,"text":"第五促進海內外的媒體對台灣的政經發展的報導辦理海外華文媒體人事歸國訪問團將僑務工作的成果與各國來分享第三"},{"start":2533.824,"end":2541.128,"text":"攜手與僑界拓展台灣的國際參與空間海外僑團及僑財商的組織運用人脈以及資源協助台灣爭取國際組織的參與包括有世界衛生組織、UN聯合國、CPTPP等重要的國際組織根據近年來的統計去年至今113年的海外僑界在46個地區有發起了"},{"start":2560.339,"end":2565.001,"text":"我國參與WHO相關系列活動有111場 觸及人數超過10萬人在北美地區的僑團有發起52場加入聯合國的系列活動有200個僑團 觸及人數有60萬共襄盛舉今年持續擴大 結合各種大型的活動包括美國的職棒大聯盟或是職籃等重要賽事透過舉辦台灣日"},{"start":2585.151,"end":2601,"text":"美食巡迴展講座等等透過軟實力來深化與當地的主流人士交流第四結合語言與文化推廣台灣的華語文產業為提升台灣的國際能見度同時結合文化與語言"},{"start":2602.099,"end":2623.836,"text":"推動華語文產業利用智能科技的方式舉辦口說華語以及歌唱比賽的活動來激發華語學習者的興趣這已經在今年要邁入第四年的舉辦以及今年也即將舉辦台灣華語教學國際高峰會來拓展全球的華語市場"},{"start":2625.757,"end":2642.171,"text":"同時我們自111年開始2022年起開始深耕計劃以來已經在全球設置華語文學習中心到目前為止有88所華語文學習中心在美國等13個歐美國家為華語的"},{"start":2645.174,"end":2658.771,"text":"無華語基礎的國際人士提供一個優質的華語文學習的環境以意味未來即將擴大做準備包括加拿大、澳洲、紐西蘭等等歐洲、亞洲都有機會繼續擴大TCML這個台灣華語文學習中心的一個設置"},{"start":2664.537,"end":2681.146,"text":"第五,持續地打造海內外的平台來拓展商機,配合政府的各項經貿政策,本會攜伏橋台商扮演橋樑的角色,促進與世界經濟的交流。今年將持續地攜伏海內外交流合作,因應產業的趨勢脈動,辦理綠色競爭力。"},{"start":2688.39,"end":2698.701,"text":"領域的邀訪活動協助橋台商掌握產業的趨勢同時在氣候變遷等重大議題上本年也將示範性的輔導橋團企業的經驗分享辦理溫室氣體盤查種子培訓以及2025年的經貿專題巡迴講座"},{"start":2710.553,"end":2731.826,"text":"最後是橋台商的企業淨零碳排的強化計畫都將在今年是作為主軸的議題第六結合橋深來台質雅發展提供妥善的協助與服務落實國家人才的政策因此本會積極推動培育生源擴大招生在學輔導與就業輔導四大"},{"start":2734.588,"end":2760.697,"text":"核心的工作並從今年1月開始就優化團隊的分工提供從招生入學就學到就業各個階段細緻的服務在吸引僑生來台就學方面開設符合產業升級需求的專班包含有產息合作專班這是三加四以及兩年制的學士副學士班四年制的產學合作學士班"},{"start":2762.059,"end":2771.426,"text":"第二在輔導方面我們今年也會繼續透過橋台橋深專班學生華語文的加強計劃這是培育培育我們在"},{"start":2775.595,"end":2801.984,"text":"商職、高職以及技專端的華語教師希望他們能夠提升學生的華語能力完成相關的學習以及相關的實習工作第三,在喬生畢業之後我們也加強留台就業的輔導措施除了打造喬生愛就業平台之外同時辦理今年會有北、中、南三場的就業博覽會"},{"start":2804.045,"end":2828.585,"text":"以及僑生就業巡迴說明會和企業說明會在北中南三場就業博覽會方面呢今年的推動可以說受到企業非常大熱烈的參與我們從前年第一次舉辦50個企業參與去年有130個今年已經破了300家企業而且六成以上都是上市櫃相當具有規模的企業"},{"start":2831.581,"end":2857.907,"text":"接下來針對第七點布建綿密的網絡來傳遞海外的傳遞海外僑民以及台灣的訊息為使最新的海外僑務工作以及台灣的政經訊息可以透過適當的網路廣告來提供僑民本會以僑務電子報為核心建構了六大官網這六大官網包含有YouTube Facebook Link"},{"start":2858.467,"end":2878.459,"text":"Align, X, Instagram 等根據不同讀者的使用習慣我們提供不同的語言跟內容來精準及時的資訊補充或澄清相關的錯假訊息以便協助所有的僑民掌握快速精準的資訊同時為強化與全球的華文媒體聯繫合作今年將舉辦華文"},{"start":2885.799,"end":2903.567,"text":"媒體報導大獎並且新增了一項短影音的獎項叫做YES!台灣同時透過海外華文媒體報導大獎的入圍者邀訪團以及海外華文媒體人士的訪問團等交流活動來正向的報導台灣的力量最後"},{"start":2908.854,"end":2932.85,"text":"在今天的報告結束以前我要特別感謝委員多日來長期的對我們僑委會的協助與關注面對這麼充滿挑戰的局勢本會仍然會持續的優化各項的服務來爭取全球僑民對政府的向心力並且深化僑界與台灣的連結合作促成海內外的共贏同時也為使本會的"},{"start":2933.49,"end":2953.109,"text":"相關應處能力持續增加本會正嘗試以全社會韌性的概念來加強各項的施政內涵期盼透過各種假想的突發狀況的特殊情境去盤點可以運用的資源以及標準的作業程序展望未來本會會持續的以喬為良為喬"},{"start":2956.332,"end":2969.945,"text":"Bridge來匯聚全球的僑力連結台灣的優勢共組堅強有韌性的挺台灣的團隊落實各項的重大國家政策的發展以上報告請各位委員不吝指教感謝"},{"start":2979.668,"end":2999.05,"text":"我們現在開始詢答今天本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點半的時候大概發言登記截止10點半我們如果有臨時提案請於10點半以前提出11點左右處理那我們現在請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":3010.012,"end":3011.777,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請徐嘉欣委員長有請徐委員長 謝謝"},{"start":3020.017,"end":3043.066,"text":"薛琳早安早安我看到這次的業務這個報告裡面跟過去好幾次我們看到業務報告比較不一樣可能也跟賴總統的這一次的談話相關裡面比較多都寫到了就是說如何在僑團的部分增加一些台灣的意識或者是什麼反中共統戰認知作戰之類這樣子的一個內容"},{"start":3046.647,"end":3064.46,"text":"那先前您接受訪問的時候也提到了呢這個中共滲透海外僑社將手伸向親台派親民進黨的僑團打著綠旗反綠旗那我想要問一下這個徐家青委員長您在所謂的"},{"start":3065.2,"end":3072.424,"text":"中共滲透海外僑社這個部分可不可以說明一下細節是怎麼樣在哪個地區的海外僑社讓你感覺到他們是打著綠旗反綠旗跟委員報告近期確實有包括在亞太區像是越南澳洲馬來西亞美國"},{"start":3091.115,"end":3113.604,"text":"美国都有这个相关的侨团来跟我们报告那您刚刚讲到东南亚的话那泰国越南菲律宾这些您感受上确实也有也都有是吧所以算是跟台湾主要的一些贸易还有往来的国家以侨团来说你都感觉到了是有中共渗透的这个"},{"start":3114.564,"end":3136.394,"text":"近期因為有很多農曆年節的活動所以他們就透過辦這些農曆年節的活動呢邀請僑團的幹部希望去參加他們的這個相關的這個活動舉辦所以除了這個之外呢那還有沒有其他的您所感受到的對於僑團的這個中共滲透的方式"},{"start":3137.514,"end":3144.536,"text":"還有包括就是會想要提供包括像我們台商會舉辦一些定期聚會的時候以年會大會他們就會想要提供一些贊助品這樣子的一個做法企圖要融入不過因為我們橋台商的各自經濟實力一般來講都還算不錯"},{"start":3159.799,"end":3166.823,"text":"所以我想他們應該也不會被這種小東西所影響所以呢您講的這個中共滲透海外的僑社那就您來評估的話你覺得並不是那麼的成功可以這麼說嗎以台藝的這個僑團來說並不成功但是傳統僑社我們還是密切關注因為我相信我們在台灣的僑胞啊對中華民國的向心力是非常強的"},{"start":3187.895,"end":3198.44,"text":"每一次我們在辦這個雙十國慶的酒會的時候像我自己在美國的朋友他們都一定要來參加那就是表達對中華民國的這個認同是那所以呢我想這個還想是問一下就是說你們認為說在海外僑社真的有被滲透的部分它的樣態是什麼樣的樣態它的僑社屬於什麼樣的僑社類別上面來說事實上近期我們"},{"start":3214.608,"end":3222.552,"text":"有沒有一些具體的案例可以跟我們分享有些案例我可能簡單的大致把輪廓跟委員報告就是我們確實有關注到部分的專業團體那因為在海外各種專業人士都會有那麼早期台灣所創立的一些新的專業團體比方說會計師協會以這個來說在這個平台上是說在"},{"start":3243.422,"end":3246.083,"text":"僑團的會計師協會這個要講清楚不是台灣的會計師協會在海外的僑團的會計師協會比方說這樣子的一個專業團體隨著近年來因為中國的僑民越來越增加"},{"start":3261.289,"end":3280.602,"text":"那他們也有相當比例的這個專業人士形成那麼有部分的專業人士也由於我們的這個專業團體已經設立了他們就來加入那加入的人數高到一個比例的時候他們甚至已經有能力變成是理監事了"},{"start":3281.642,"end":3309.229,"text":"這個就是我們也有一定擔憂的地方看到的太陽這樣子那您在這次的這個業務報告裡面的第四頁剛剛您有提到不過不是那麼的詳細提到中國運用春節活動開始文化統戰那您提到就是說在113年12月的時候聯合國教科文組織將春節列入人類非物質文化遺產那英文的關於叫做Spring Festival"},{"start":3310.149,"end":3325.825,"text":"那您這邊提到的是翻譯上卻出現了Chinese New Year跟Lunar New Year的爭論那你也認為在這裡提到說這樣子的說法的翻譯呢是碎形統戰的場域那是這樣子來講的嗎?"},{"start":3328.027,"end":3354.526,"text":"應該這樣講本來我們在翻譯上就要精準精確那過去這十多年來中國運用各種的在文字上的技巧企圖把這個有全球化的所謂春節的活動變成是屬於中國的所以在英文翻譯上都說Chinese New Year但是近年來我們包括看到聯合國或者各國政府他們都用Lunar New Year的方式來更正Lunar New Year"},{"start":3355.486,"end":3374.174,"text":"農曆年才是正確的翻譯但是你在報告上面卻寫的是Chinese New Year跟Lunar New Year的這個爭論是那因為有部分的僑團至今仍然還是繼續使用Chinese New Year這樣子的字眼那這個就部分的會讓其他族裔的"},{"start":3375.194,"end":3395.002,"text":"這些民眾會抗議因為包括有越南、韓國、馬來西亞、新加坡各個國家都也是過這個農曆年節的活動那如果把這個Lunar New Year稱為Chinese New Year好像這些國家的主體性也都不見了因此他們在邀請一些不同族裔的人參加的時候就難免會被人家批評OK 好"},{"start":3399.344,"end":3408.794,"text":"我想請問一下,2025年,也就是今年度,僑委會主辦跟協辦相關春節活動,分別有幾個場次?"},{"start":3411.095,"end":3438.095,"text":"這個場次非常的多我們還在統計當中因為他們的辦理事實上是從1月下旬然後就一直持續到3月底都陸續還有所以我們原則上都會等3月底會統一計算所有的數量但是今年舉辦的這個狀況非常熱烈而且還有非常多創新的做法我現在只能就粗略的部分來提供那我們統整好以後會送一份完整資料給委員"},{"start":3439.176,"end":3448.762,"text":"那我再問一下接下來的題目就是說呢如果我們談到的是這個Lunar New Year的話這個農曆新年是不是就認為是沒有問題的我們只是不是說有沒有問題是說希望大家能夠精準正確的去傳譯因為春節的農曆年概念就是Lunar嘛絕對不是如果是叫做Chinese就變中國節中國新年就會變成是這個概念了"},{"start":3467.893,"end":3493.769,"text":"那所以這個其實這是為什麼前年開始聯合國就做出了這樣子的一個宣示希望說這是一個世界的節日但是聯合國講的是Spring Festival跟Chinese New Year還有Lunar New Year都是不一樣的這個在其他包括美國包括法國他們在白宮或香榭宮也都是證明用Lunar New Year的做法一改過去用Chinese New Year的"},{"start":3494.91,"end":3521.892,"text":"那近日來呢 這個陸委會跟移民署那他們轟轟烈烈的審查了這些陸配的言論也引發了這個相關的效應那我最後想要問的事情是僑胞他們也有華僑身份的證明那如果有僑名的話那他們可以方便在國內辦理投資 工商登記不動產買賣 遺產繼承也可以開立賬戶稅務考試入境居留 還有最常遇到的這個兵役"},{"start":3522.452,"end":3532.83,"text":"那委員長如果這個華僑他有談論到支持統戰或是支持台灣獨立也就是非支持中華民國的言論那我們僑委會這邊會做什麼樣的一個具體的動作"},{"start":3537.82,"end":3562.352,"text":"針對僑民的部分是是是 我想我們會努力的來跟這些僑民溝通只要溝通而已 沒有其他的因為他們都是他國 他已經是他國公民了是啊 但是他們可以所以我們還是要尊重他他國公民但是我相信我們絕大多數的僑民都不會做出這樣傷害台灣地位的地方那我們會有跟委會一樣的審查機制甚至去撤照他的我想我們執行的方式是不一樣的"},{"start":3562.952,"end":3571.714,"text":"因為陸委會管轄的範圍是指在台灣已經要加入公民的人了解那會有面談機制嗎因為我們就拿了幾個陸委會你說申請華僑證明嗎不是就是說如果你發現說這些僑報他有統戰或是台獨相關的這個非中華民國的言論那我們會像陸委會這樣比較會有訪談面談的機制"},{"start":3584.958,"end":3593.804,"text":"我想我們不會 我剛剛已經講了因為這些是他國公民我們不可能做這些他國公民的權利侵犯好 謝謝了解了謝謝委員長 謝謝好 謝謝徐委員 謝謝委員長那接下來我們請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3613.937,"end":3615.083,"text":"謝謝主席 有請徐委員長"},{"start":3622.316,"end":3625.578,"text":"委員長早安委員長早安委員長今天針對這個僑委會的這個會務的工作呢做了非常詳細的這個報告那其中呢也提到了為了抑制台灣產業所需呢我們開設了符合產業升級需求的這個僑生專班那這些專班呢受到其實受到媒體跟大家關注的"},{"start":3644.387,"end":3651.574,"text":"其實就是我們過去一直討論的三加四的產學專班那上個會期我也跟委員長討論過就是說其實目前能夠成功畢業三加四的學生並不多那委員長有提到就是說針對我們之前討論的問題我們交友會會一一的來處理跟解決"},{"start":3667.21,"end":3675.353,"text":"那上個會期我們所提到的就是語言的問題當然我有今天看到這個報告就是說委員長有提到就是我們今年呢將要推動僑生專班學生華語文加強的這個計畫因為上個會期我也跟委員長提到就是說其實有很多的這一個僑外生來到台灣之後呢因為對這個這個華語文的這個不熟悉所以呢產生了這個學習的這個障礙所以我們現在看到就是說僑友會呢有要來改進就是說"},{"start":3694.759,"end":3713.896,"text":"想透過這華語文的輔導跟這個教室的培訓的提升學生的這個華語能力那之前我也有看到一個報導就是說委員長有提到就是說從今年的九月份新生我們可能就會來一個完整的一個在校學習的這個課程因為我知道像過去的話"},{"start":3715.117,"end":3739.388,"text":"讓大家抨擊的就是說有很多學生一下飛機其實馬上就送到工廠去做實習他們連語言都不通連課都還沒有上就已經送到工廠裡面去做實習這部分的一直都是受到抨擊的那當然這部分我有看到是全國會有提到就是說今年九月開始新生必須要完整上一個學期的這個課程那這部分我跟你講這個部分有沒有比較詳細的一個說法"},{"start":3742.526,"end":3748.228,"text":"我們其實是有一個系列的改善措施包括我們從去年的12月開始我們就要求28個跟我們有簽約合作的高職必須每個學校都要派他們的華語教師來參加我們的進修課程那因為僑生的這個華語學習的需求跟我們本地生從小學習華語的這個樣態是不同的"},{"start":3768.895,"end":3779.042,"text":"因此在使用教材方面我們也提供他們用我們新的雙語教材的模式來協助老師讓他在教學現場比較能夠掌握學生的學習跟互動的量能這是第一個部分其次我們也跟教育部做了非常多的細節的討論所以從今年度新的九月份第一批新的新生進來的時候我們就要落實開始前三個月到四個月"},{"start":3798.695,"end":3816.581,"text":"在學校做這個第一階段的所謂語言篩選分流分成初級、中級、高級如果他的華語已經進到高級階段的他可以選修第二外國語其他的語言來強化他的這個競爭力但是中級跟初級的部分呢就是一樣要繼續參加我們的華語班"},{"start":3819.122,"end":3821.603,"text":"那這個華語班在結束之後我們會有一個簡單的叫做快篩用快篩的方式來判斷他是不是已經到達可以出去做實習一般生活的這個需求所以快篩有通過了之後才會讓他進入這個實習的場域這個是我們今年也跟教育部開會"},{"start":3841.528,"end":3859.808,"text":"做成的一些決議所以馬上9月就要來落實執行那教育部也支持我們這樣的一個計畫的執行那我們可以預期就是說今年的12月底以後那麼很可能學生在做完這個快篩如果成績每一班的這個"},{"start":3861.529,"end":3888.647,"text":"數字都有高度的成長我們也會給這些華語教師一定的這個bonus來獎勵他讓他覺得說他這樣的教學改善是對學生有幫助的所以我們會有多管齊下的方式那學生呢到畢業以前我們一定要求他通通要到B2以上的應該說A2以上的華語程度他才可以去對接這個技專的科技大學"},{"start":3890.609,"end":3918.67,"text":"三年結束一定要達到A2那我們第一階段是要達到A1以上所以A1到A2之間這兩年當中就是讓他繼續持續的加強語言的學習如果他在第一階段就能夠有所提升會有很大的程度幫助他的適應力還有學習力以及他去實習的溝通所以這個部分我們從去年到今年就持續的在改善當中"},{"start":3919.631,"end":3946.032,"text":"好 謝謝委員長的這個說明因為我一直覺得語言是進入他這個學習很重要的門檻我也看到小委會的這個努力那我就要說三家市成立了將近20年其實它有很多的這個乘客真的很需要小委會來做這個解決跟處理因為我發現說三家市不單單一直一再的受到媒體的這個關注甚至我之前還看到這個媒體有報導就是說連美國"},{"start":3948.494,"end":3974.408,"text":"連美國的這個人口販運都提到說我們這個僑生專班都是被關注的這一點所以這部分有影響到台灣的這個國際形象那但除了語言之外我在想教學品質的不佳還有仲介的這個問題都是要委員長這邊來搭搭到霍府來做這個處理的我想三家式產學專班原先的它的這個建立的其實是一個美意可是"},{"start":3975.834,"end":3981.496,"text":"沒有想到20年來是越走越糟糕啦委員其實沒有20年我們是103年開始實驗性計畫103年就2014年所以到今年是滿10年10年而已那前幾年因為他的招生規模都很小而且當時也沒有配套措施所以我們在經過檢討以後也確實發現說當時的學生可能念一年兩年三年他們就陸續流失了"},{"start":4002.964,"end":4022.121,"text":"所以真正唸到七年畢業的人數都只有三到四成而已但是這三到四成如果唸到畢業的他真的留在台灣的就業率就高達八成五以上了所以可見得說他如果真的能夠受到台灣好的教育栽培那他留台的機率也變很很大委員長我再打下一下是"},{"start":4022.441,"end":4038.746,"text":"OK那之前我們也就這個所謂的這個流台率我們也做了這個檢討那之前我也看到一個您的訪談就是有提到就是說我們你也承認了其實承接的很多的這個學校其實已經面幾乎是要面臨這個倒閉體質不佳的這個學校來承接這個這個3加4"},{"start":4044.068,"end":4058.701,"text":"真的要倒閉了我們就不會跟他簽約了像之前一直都有這些學生來承接我們三家市的這個班那現在的話我們要如何去淘汰跟篩檢就讓這些學校退場嘛現在我們怎麼處理的這部分"},{"start":4061.864,"end":4086.901,"text":"跟委員說明一下就是我們台灣的技職教育其實在過去幾十年其實是相當成功的它也培養了我們台灣無數的這些這個勞動力以及優質的人力那很多的老闆企業都是從這樣子的一個苦學出身那所以技職教育在台灣並不是像今天說的這樣都是不好的"},{"start":4087.421,"end":4117.081,"text":"但是有一些後段班的由於他的這個可能教師人數不足或者是學校經營不善那麼逐漸有一些狀況所以我們的態度就是我們要服優太弱那太弱的我們事實上是不會跟他做任何合作的可是他現在有些正在承接當中也就是說這個結束之後他比方說有兩個學校確實是這樣他們後面他們就不能再承接了他們現在只剩下高三的那一班辦完他們就結束了"},{"start":4117.281,"end":4121.824,"text":"我們有在增加新的學校但是我們也有淘汰不好的學校所以我們蘿蔔棍子當然都是要同步那作為政府當然是不能不教而殺我們一定是先給予輔導先給予相關的協助那麼如果他還在不改善的狀況影響學生的教學這個就學權益或者說是沒有辦法達到我們的標準那我們只好讓他退場"},{"start":4145.177,"end":4153.365,"text":"一方面是先減人數跟減班再者就是重則我們就把這個約就取消所以這個我們都每年每年重新再檢視"},{"start":4154.841,"end":4181.108,"text":"OK 好 謝謝 謝謝委員長當然最近這兩個會期跟委員長都討論這個三家市當然我也很開心看到說我們有逐步在做改善因為說實在的三家市連美國都在注意到就是說我們這些學生到底是來做打工還是來上學不會讓人口發育的事情發生在我們的政策裡面是 所以這個部分這是我們要特別留意的地方OK 好 以上謝謝謝謝羅委員"},{"start":4185.69,"end":4190.431,"text":"好 謝謝羅委員那我們現在請陳俊宇委員上台持續好 謝謝主席 我們有請委員長有請委員長 謝謝"},{"start":4212.336,"end":4223.89,"text":"委員長早陳委員長安 歡迎加入外委會新生 新生報導謝謝委員長那我們就去年去年我們對喬森的這個就業博覽會"},{"start":4224.955,"end":4254.031,"text":"所舉辦的這個成效算不錯那今年也接續要繼續辦理這個就業博覽會而且參加的這個廠家也比去年多一倍以上那我想像這種我們未來要辦的這北中南分別三場的這個就業博覽會對於我們這個僑委會這邊能否預估今年會參加的這個僑生大概人數會是多少"},{"start":4254.511,"end":4262.69,"text":"那僑委會未來會如何來規劃,來提高媒合的成功機率,讓僑生能夠更加有意願留在台灣"},{"start":4263.402,"end":4267.804,"text":"是謝謝委員的這個問題那就業博覽會的部分呢我們從第一屆只有51家企業參與當時有4000多位僑生其實不是單純都是僑生也有外籍生還有本地生後來都用了我們這個平台那因為我們這個就業博覽會是一天實體然後半年是用這個網路平台的模式來幫他們做媒合然後提供一些"},{"start":4292.393,"end":4306.758,"text":"在求職的訓練或者是如何撰寫履歷表等等去年我們又再一次提高北部有80間企業高雄有50間企業參與的人數也在繼續提升當中今年預估我們在北部、中部、南部都各有超過100多所的企業"},{"start":4320.663,"end":4326.708,"text":"而且跨級包括有金融服務業包括有旅宿餐飲業還有製造業、科技業營造業、電商類別類型都非常的多今年預估人數我想應該會比去年前年同步繼續上升"},{"start":4342.842,"end":4364.366,"text":"但由於是我們三月底才即將要開始所以我們是抱著一個努力誠惶誠恐的心情那另外跟委員報告就是說我們除了博覽會以外我們還有北中南東的就業巡迴說明會那這個說明會呢基本上是針對著學校以及企業界來辦理所以我們也有一場在東部這個會有針對企業以及針對學校的說明好那這部分再請委員長"},{"start":4371.59,"end":4386.619,"text":"提供資料謝謝那對於我們台灣的部分最近這幾年缺工蠻嚴重的那對於我們這些優秀的僑生我們各個企業都希望他們有機會的話能夠留在台灣來服務"},{"start":4388.547,"end":4403.85,"text":"我想就這個問題請教我們委員長,那我們在台灣的有哪些企業,他對於這個聘用僑生的意願會比較高一點?是相對的對於這個僑生,他對於什麼樣的企業他會比較有那個意願留在台灣?"},{"start":4406.035,"end":4423.107,"text":"事實上現在分佈的都還蠻多元的沒有特別集中以批發零售業來說應該說累積到今年1月為止在批發零售業的部分申請的學生佔15%"},{"start":4425.589,"end":4427.63,"text":"15.6%是在批發零售業有4132人那麼在旅宿餐飲業有15.32%也是破4000人那再來就是在專業的科學技術服務業這也4000"},{"start":4441.317,"end":4460.925,"text":"零三十一人也是十五點二六趴這三個蛋的比例第四個是製造業製造業是三千接近四千三千九百八十七人那也佔十五點零九趴所以以上四個大類別呢就佔了這個六成以上的這個比例那這個總計已經有超過一萬五千人來這個投入這個相關的流台"},{"start":4469.108,"end":4488.273,"text":"那其次還有包括出版影音傳播資訊通訊服務業這一方面也不遑多讓去年到現在為止有2500多人佔了將近10%的投入那台灣在這方面事實上是相對有基礎而且多元文化的"},{"start":4489.893,"end":4502.046,"text":"即便是在所謂的社工技醫療健保方面也有1300多人投入這個也佔了5%以上所以各種業別教育業這個藝術、休閒、文化、娛樂通通有"},{"start":4503.816,"end":4525.975,"text":"那我還是請我們僑委會這邊盡量來媒合因為適材適用讓適合的人才可以留在適合的部門是 我們會希望說讓來台灣念書的無論是在一般的學術大學或者是參加我們的這些產系合作專班的這些年輕學子學有所成的時候只要他想留下來我們會盡力幫他留下來"},{"start":4529.025,"end":4550.721,"text":"那另外就是針對去年我們喬森就業博覽會的網站上所列的企業當中有幾家企業在半年內曾有違反勞動法令而被開罰的紀錄那我想對這個部分喬委會在參展的廠商篩選上有沒有注意到這一個區塊?"},{"start":4551.862,"end":4578.601,"text":"有 我們除了重視他們的資本額跟營業額的規模之外我們也會針對勞動部有或者是各地的檢察署所做出來的結果也都會把它列入如果過去一年他們有這些相關的記錄我們可能就會在這個篩選上把它排到比較後面去不讓它做實體展那這部分再請我們僑委會一樣留意一下好"},{"start":4579.822,"end":4598.353,"text":"另外對於我們僑委會將在今年8月第二度要舉辦僑務探索營當然這個目的是要讓更多的我們在地的高中子學生可以盡早來瞭解我們僑務的相關業務還有一些可以參與討論的機會"},{"start":4601.135,"end":4610.886,"text":"那在活動的規劃上還有內容,跟去年看起來大致都相同去年是66人參加,今年大概預定60個人我們喬委會預期這一場的營隊活動能夠達到怎樣的成效"},{"start":4619.009,"end":4624.454,"text":"去年我們第一次辦這個橋霧探索營是針對高中學生這也是我們的嘗試過去我們都是大學以上用搭橋計畫讓他們去海外那我們發現說近期我們年輕人對於國際事務對公共事務的熱情跟參與度越來越高所以我們就向下扎根也是培養人才"},{"start":4641.408,"end":4646.85,"text":"那去年辦的這個第一次的探索營反應非常熱烈全台灣有17個高中的66個學生入選那麼他們也都完成三天的培訓都非常積極投入而且他們的語言程度都蠻好的因為有不少人他們在"},{"start":4661.155,"end":4664.657,"text":"做這些活動的時候我們要求他們是某些地方要用外語溝通所以我們有看到我們的學生其實是有很大的成長進步的這個成果出來那今年我們也預期說60個學生的這個參與報到應當也會在去年的基礎上持續的加深那我們是希望說讓學生能夠充分了解自己有什麼優勢在台灣那麼未來如果他要在海外發展的話"},{"start":4691.088,"end":4692.33,"text":"他可以掌握怎麼樣的一個契機不管是個人或者是對他的企業或者對於我們這個國家那目前報名的情況怎麼樣"},{"start":4701.991,"end":4731.011,"text":"剛剛開始才剛剛登出去而已原則上我們去年的經驗是報名很踴躍那去年的口碑也很不錯所以今年應當也是會很踴躍如果很踴躍的話我們有沒有可能再放寬一些名額我們很希望能夠把名額增加但是報告委員我們其實預算是變少的在這一部分我們是不足因為我們業務費今年已經這個三減了所以我就算今年想要再擴增也沒有辦法"},{"start":4731.991,"end":4749.295,"text":"那這部分也是請我們僑委會盡量來幫忙啦因為既然這個我們的學子對這個活動有興趣的話我們想辦法看有沒有什麼這個經費可以來運資讓這個活動越辦越熱鬧也能夠讓更多的青年敢來參與我們這個僑務的這個推動的過程好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員"},{"start":4758.988,"end":4779.553,"text":"那我們現在請王定宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 麻煩委員長何秀文委員長 謝謝王委員長安"},{"start":4780.897,"end":4799.746,"text":"委員長 我在開始詢問之前 我追蹤一下一個事情的進度我跟沈博洋委員 我們曾經去馬來西亞的台灣學校回來之後我在這邊也質詢過我們同樣在海外 我們台灣人的子弟在那邊讀台灣學校 用台灣的課綱 用台灣的教材"},{"start":4800.706,"end":4828.739,"text":"結果到中國的學校他們每個學期好像補助到三萬多每學年補助三萬多塊的樣子結果我們在東南亞其他的地方的類似這樣的台灣學校每個學年才一萬塊錢這個其實是非常不公平我們要強調這些是我們在海外的台灣子弟他們讀完中學之後會回台灣讀大學像馬來西亞的台灣學校辦得不錯甚至於讓馬來西亞國同意有八個國家的橋外生"},{"start":4830.039,"end":4850.665,"text":"馬來西亞的僑外生可以去讀我們在馬來西亞的台灣學校有點像在台灣的美國學校他們已經變國際學校的規模就很多人想要去讀那一間可是我們的台灣也許是台商的子女或者是我們當地台僑的子弟那他的學費補助是一萬塊嘛是教育部補助的那我上次質詢說我說這個"},{"start":4852.546,"end":4871.875,"text":"不對 何況在東南亞好像有七家台灣學校目前四家台灣學校他們用的是完全我們台灣的課堂完全用台灣的進度他的課本也不會被審查在中華人民共和國的台灣學校課本會用那個黑筆把中華民國塗掉 把東西塗掉 總統塗掉把一些有關國家代表性的東西都塗掉"},{"start":4876.197,"end":4903.832,"text":"他還會審查你的課本課綱也沒有完全的執行這兩個差異就那一邊一學年三萬多塊錢的補助這邊一學年一萬塊錢的補助這個不僅是不公平而且有點像在懲罰照規矩來的而且這些人回到台灣讀書他們的相關的人會來這邊消費等等所以這個事情我從上次去馬來西亞看了我們的喬教中心我們的台灣學校回來質詢之後有沒有新的進度"},{"start":4904.839,"end":4916.902,"text":"跟委員報告我們當然有把這個事情跟教育部說明那因為預算的這個編列上是在教育部的這個全署範圍內那事實上我們持續的對包括越南胡志明市那個對泰國的泰國沒有馬來西亞的吉隆坡"},{"start":4926.924,"end":4947.147,"text":"還有在雅加達 印尼雅加達跟釋水總共這四個這個台灣學校呢確實是當時設立的時候是一半教育部一半僑委會來出資協助他們設立那我們也提供各種的我目前教育部的態度是怎麼樣我沒有要求把中國那塊降下來嘛"},{"start":4947.808,"end":4964.61,"text":"我們也無法要求中國的不是 那一塊是我們補助的喔是我們補助我們的台籍學生的學雜費補助嘛我現在只是說我們應該是一視同仁在東南亞的台灣孩子跟在中國的台灣孩子我們應該要公平嘛現在差了三倍啊"},{"start":4966.613,"end":4983.012,"text":"我的了解是這一塊可能還是要看教育部自己的執行預算但是我們有跟他們表達過可能要強烈表達啦好那這就是所謂的跨部會的情形那我也會尋管到看透過鄭麗君副院長或者相關情形我就真的要解決"},{"start":4983.653,"end":5001.005,"text":"這不解決我認為對在海外努力幫台灣辦學的人我覺得不公允好第二個我要請教最近有個題目說台灣會變學工之島這個題目很嚇人因為學工之島其實我們就違反聯合國很多東西喔是那我們這邊也關注過"},{"start":5002.264,"end":5019.855,"text":"我們鼓勵外國的人來台灣讀書僑生來台灣讀書當然不能變成打黑工甚至於更慘變奴工護照被扣著之前發生過嘛那樣的奴工化其實是違反國際的所有的普世法則聯合國的公約所以"},{"start":5020.575,"end":5033.355,"text":"我們看我們現在3加4的方案3年就高中嘛4年就大學嘛我們對於就讀高中這個3有沒有年齡的限制還是說他只有國中學歷他就讀3還是說我要限18歲以下"},{"start":5035.377,"end":5052.065,"text":"委員我們現在是這樣子我們三家四主要的聲援國來自於東協國家主要七個那這七個國家呢各自的法規有一些不一樣像越南泰國馬來西亞柬埔寨"},{"start":5053.006,"end":5067.243,"text":"他們就沒有規範到那麼嚴格說未成年者不得出國可是在菲律賓跟印尼他們對於未成年者要出國就設定不是說不能出國就設定比較嚴的門檻你很誤會我的意思我們這一塊我知道他在讀我們的高中"},{"start":5071.668,"end":5086.746,"text":"會不會有成年人基本上我們現在是這樣子年齡喔就是三加四的部分是從16歲到22歲都可以都可以所以他可以讀高中對可以讀大學對所以我們可能會發現一個21歲的在台灣讀高中"},{"start":5088.268,"end":5108.198,"text":"是的沒有錯沒有錯確實你不覺得這怪怪的嗎我們有算過這個lifestyle就是說因為他們的這個學制跟他們學習的內容可能跟我們台灣相對有一些落後的部分我們這個預算是花我們國家的是所以你要站在說我們鼓勵海外的這些僑生來台灣讀書我當然樂見而且有補助"},{"start":5111.24,"end":5113.984,"text":"委員我們其實已經限縮了之前的門檻更寬所以我們現在把它縮到說16歲到22歲縮小就代表問題不用檢討所以我剛才講的像你們提供的資料3加4畢業率不到4成"},{"start":5127.723,"end":5132.365,"text":"各位有人報告那時候前幾年我們確實在103年、104年、105年那幾年當中開始試辦這個計畫的時候沒有任何配套措施然後當時是試辦計畫所以人數也很少那所以流失率也就很高那那段時間從他們不讀了就回他們母國對沒錯他只要一不讀書"},{"start":5151.391,"end":5179.344,"text":"他馬上就會取消他的簽證他就馬上離開畢業率不到四成畢業率不到四成不是馬上聯想到他就不讀了有可能我高中三年當作六年來讀啊不可能不可能延畢不行嗎不行不行在我們的計畫不行不行不行在我們的計畫裡面在我們這個三家市不行我們這個跟一般的一般生的狀況是不一樣所以他必須按照這個進度來他是學衛生嘛"},{"start":5179.684,"end":5194.973,"text":"他是他有學位但是他必須按照我們三加四的時間他甚至連休學都不可以喔他一休學就馬上休學就回國了請假也不行我說三年制他必須三年念完他必須三年不能延避一年不可以"},{"start":5195.473,"end":5200.414,"text":"大學的時候可以,但是他延畢的時候他不能實習了延畢的話你們補助也沒有了嗎?沒有了,而且跟委員報告,其實我們3加4的補助只有補助在前三年後面都沒有補助了,所以大學端的部分,那個是他自己自付學費的所以他如果要拖得久給他拖,我也沒意見那現在畢業率不到四成其實很低"},{"start":5219.821,"end":5226.657,"text":"我就是跟委員講其實雖然那時候不到四成可是真的有讀完七年的人他留台率很高"},{"start":5229.098,"end":5250.365,"text":"這有十個來 畢業的有三個但是這三個都留下來了兩個半或三個都留下來了你再研究這塊 再研究那六個嘛那六個就是因為我研究了前面為什麼它要流失所以我現在是改善畢業率不到四成 這個很低確實很低我們台灣在我們的教育裡面不是這樣的數據"},{"start":5252.216,"end":5267.635,"text":"你們找到原因了沒有然後你們期待今年明年的畢業率到多少有 早期就是因為整個配套措施都沒有也沒有在考察這個學生的學習力實習的狀況那語言的狀況也都沒有跟進所以我們這三年來"},{"start":5268.696,"end":5295.019,"text":"開始持續的強化包括學校的住宿、教學、語言、實習的狀況我們都一項一項開始把它鎖緊那希望說他們可以一年級讀到三年級所以未來的畢業率會是我們審核學校他能不能繼續增加學生人數的一個評鑑今年的畢業季五月嘛對我們的畢業率會拉起來嗎我相信會會到多少你們的目標值是多少"},{"start":5296,"end":5324,"text":"過去因為只有三到四成因為以前很低啊 基期很低基期很低 基期很低你很容易進步啦所以現在說以往畢業率不到四成你們估計今年的畢業率今年要畢業的學生也只有幾百個而已大概是六七百個因為算比例所以應該入學如果七百個 畢業六百多個 那很高現在應該會有五成左右你認為會到五成嗎其實還是偏低 這還是要精進但是我相信未來三年以後都會往上繼續走提醒這個事情就是說"},{"start":5324.7,"end":5342.187,"text":"如果從東南亞來的所謂的僑生來我們這邊讀三加四畢業率不到四成第一個會形成我們的投資浪費我每花十塊錢有六塊呢根本就沒有了每花十塊錢人民的納稅人的錢有六塊就浪費了這個我們不容許"},{"start":5343.928,"end":5363.999,"text":"這個投報率太低第二個會有變相移工的風險你們管理上會形成很大的困難當然我們一直在要說委員當時大概不太會有是因為當時的規模很小都是數百人而已都還不到上千數字的敏感性高一個他占比較高嘛你現在量大了嘛花了40來億嘛但是我們還是要monitor我們還是要監控這個數據現在我們就很重視這個就是說"},{"start":5367.082,"end":5392.655,"text":"有移工的風險有投資的浪費我們就不能長期容忍我們的公共投資我們當然鼓勵台灣是一個開放國家海外僑生來台灣讀書百分之一百歡迎在略略率在四成以下五成左右那這樣子形成我們投資的浪費可能在做法上要更更嚴謹去思考那這個數據我會持續觀察好謝謝委員我們一定會讓稅金做最好的運用謝謝"},{"start":5396.031,"end":5415.396,"text":"好 謝謝王委員現在請黃媛委員上台質詢有請委員長請委員長 謝謝黃教委早安"},{"start":5422.372,"end":5440.19,"text":"有關於喬教的政策推動推廣我想這是你們喬委會最重要的工作之一尤其是近兩年來兩岸爭奪華人世界的代表性"},{"start":5442.623,"end":5453.494,"text":"喬教如何做得好可以強化對中華民國的認同感同時也有利於世界對我們的認同本席首先請教一下委員長"},{"start":5455.249,"end":5472.08,"text":"橋委會有自編華語學習的教材以提供各地橋校的運用教材的種類有寫華語向前走、新橋教雙周攤、全球華文網、華語文教應學"},{"start":5477.645,"end":5492.07,"text":"教學應用手冊和文化的教材那以上這些系列的教材提供橋校標準化的內容但各地學習的環境差異各地的學習差異"},{"start":5493.03,"end":5520.808,"text":"要如何因應各國不同的華語語文教語文教育需求以提供客製化的教材讓教這個喬教學生更好融入華語文學的學習的環境那本是建議喬委會的資源有限要完善的教材客製化有相當的難度那但可以加強以喬校教師的雙向的互動"},{"start":5522.728,"end":5543.109,"text":"以提供橋校教師依標準化的教材客製化符合各地環境的補充教材的方向同時也鼓勵橋校教師向橋委會提供教協的反饋以立自編教材內容以"},{"start":5545.731,"end":5567.696,"text":"當地的併進若喬校教師自行編出列出優良的客製化教材喬委會是否能提供更好的獎勵以鼓勵更多教師投入的編寫的教材因為這是本席的建議但是我不知道妳的看法是什麼樣妳提供一下好不好"},{"start":5567.816,"end":5590.131,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員的這個問題我們事實上雖然有僑委會自編的教材但是我們基本上是尊重全球各地的教學現場所以他們在每一年都會先預先為下一年的教材呢做出一個問卷調查讓他們自己填寫他們想要什麼樣的教材所以有一些他們想要買國內台灣的這些商業出版的教材我們也可以補助"},{"start":5598.416,"end":5618.001,"text":"那如果要用我們僑委會的自編教材我們也免費贈送那如果是要自編教材的我們當然予以鼓勵但是自編教材的那個成本因為很高所以確實過去曾經有人來跟我們提過但是我們沒有辦法僅為特定的一個區做那個教材的這個編審的預算"},{"start":5620.182,"end":5635.984,"text":"因為那個佔我們整體的預算會變得非常龐大所以這一塊我們都鼓勵他們自己做但是要我們再support這個基本上我們是比較難我們基本上補助的都是已經編輯好的這些印刷好的這些資料然後才補助他們"},{"start":5637.326,"end":5651.985,"text":"這個是我們可以做得到了那因為僑委會的預算規模是真的很小所以過去曾經有我們就鼓勵他說那這樣子的話是不是也可以跟我們的全球華文網做一個連結事實上我們是走在"},{"start":5652.606,"end":5672.406,"text":"各個橋區的前面所以如果真的有編的比我們好的我們一定會去向他們取經那甚至把他們的東西來納入那這樣子的話就是說那個成本我們大概就是可以來幫忙吸收然後再給其他的地方也可以來分享使用有些地方硬地質疑環境的因素"},{"start":5673.387,"end":5696.888,"text":"我們針對各國你們編的客製化裡面當然也因應地方的一些如果教材更好的話是不是也納入作為你們的客製化的一些教材跟委員報告像我們以泰國來說我們就有特別針對小學的部分有泰文泰國版的然後初中的華文也特別有為泰國編初中版的那所以這些都是有因地制宜因為像因為"},{"start":5698.089,"end":5718.054,"text":"泰國它有潑水節啦它有這個特別這個孤軍泰北孤軍的這些歷史嘛所以在這些教材裡面我們都會把當地的文化跟它的歷史特性加入這個教材的素元素當中所以事實上我們都有顧慮到各地在發展的時候那因為我們泰北地區的橋校數量算不少將近快100間所以我們願意為他們統編一套這樣子的教材來運作"},{"start":5725.276,"end":5748.179,"text":"那如果是在歐美國家 美國 北美洲 我們也可以同頭的在做可是他們可以自己選不同版本他想要選康宣版 我們就讓他選康宣版他想要選那個南伊版 我們就讓他選南伊版他要選喬維惠版 我就讓他選喬維惠版本席去年特別是有到太平去聊一下他們各校各校的這些需求我想你們從這個方面去努力 好不好"},{"start":5748.439,"end":5771.87,"text":"好的那有關於橋商輔導與產業連結那沈昭偉在這個這個座山安排國防報告四年期國防總體驗本席發現這一次的四年期國防總體驗有一個明顯的特色就是特色強調全民民主供應鏈的連結所以在"},{"start":5772.492,"end":5785.453,"text":"民主供應鏈的內涵是什麼在強化台灣與海外僑商的產業鏈的連結促進雙方互惠合作上有辦法配合國防總體驗的方向嗎你來提一下"},{"start":5786.225,"end":5800.97,"text":"跟委員報告事實上我們真的都在與時俱進中所以都有關注重大的政策發展方向那所以本會除了我們自己的同仁都要定期做一些專業的培訓以外我們也擴大針對橋團橋校也都有提供類似的這些課程如果他們有興趣來參與我們都會讓他們參與這些培訓那除此之外我們也會在第一時間把最新的一些資訊透過我們的官網"},{"start":5815.914,"end":5835.976,"text":"我們現在講的是第一個有辦法配合國防總體驗的方向嗎現在這個是有一點空洞的感覺委員這個當然我們是最下游的單位就是說今天如果國防部的全民動員署他要我們配合做什麼我們就會去事先先預防"},{"start":5836.957,"end":5855.131,"text":"的準備就是說盤點我們到底有什麼量能比方說我們在國內我們大概有4萬的僑生對不對那4萬名僑生他們在這個特殊的緊急狀況比方說地震發生或者是大淹水的時候我們都是怎麼樣第一時間就去盤點包括在當地學校的一些情形"},{"start":5855.691,"end":5858.953,"text":"所以這個資料我們平常就在準備那抑或是在海外的僑團我們現在也是一樣的就是都平時有做這些訓練課程強化他們的這個防災意識然後韌性增加那必要時候怎麼樣做整體動員的部分這個我們現在也開始在做模擬訓練中"},{"start":5875.646,"end":5880.328,"text":"我們會透過各種會議當中來安排比方說一年一度我們就有僑務委員會議那僑務委員會議來自全球180個僑務委員他們返國的時候我們也會安排這些相關的課程那他每一個人就是一個總指教官他回到他的這個僑區他就要帶他當地的僑團去進行相關的這些串聯的"},{"start":5898.578,"end":5924.953,"text":"所以其中最能夠與國防總體院掛鉤的大概是無人機產業的邀訪團既然四年期國防總體院是賴總統未來四年國防政策的核心概念僑委會應該鼓勵僑台商在國防產業全球的供應鏈上投注更多的資源這方面僑委會有什麼樣的想法跟作為"},{"start":5925.413,"end":5932.198,"text":"謝謝委員的這個提問我確實在這兩年呢從去年到今年每到每一個僑區我們都會做僑務座談那僑務座談的報告當中呢我都會特別提醒這一點就是說在全球這個趨勢的變化下安全已經是一個非常重要的議題所以鼓勵大家可以投資在除了說AI啦半導體啦資通訊以外那麼軍工產業這一塊"},{"start":5952.773,"end":5973.185,"text":"其實我們是做很多的產業鏈的搭配那所以這個產業鏈搭配的過程當中的這個投資也是鼓勵橋台商可以踴躍來投資都關注橋台商因為現在的動盪不安所以以橋台商來講也動盪不安所以我們也給他們一個更具的信心 好不好好的 謝謝 謝謝委員謝謝黃委員現在請林曙英委員上台質詢"},{"start":5994.401,"end":5998.184,"text":"謝謝主席有請徐嘉欣委員長有請委員長林委員早安"},{"start":6003.846,"end":6022.183,"text":"委員長好我想接下來會期的開始不容易因為從總預算被刪減的狀況來看我們面對的是中國在全球的橋界可以說過去他們其實就是資本很雄厚那麼所謂拉攏"},{"start":6025.866,"end":6041.892,"text":"當然我們的所有僑界朋友其實是一個他們的主力尤其是從您的報告當中就看得非常的明白跟清楚從這個總預算的狀況來看的話我想其實刪減總預算到最後都不是教訓到"},{"start":6042.992,"end":6059.479,"text":"行政單位其實都是我們這些民眾或僑民其實受到損害比如說像這個媒體政策宣傳費被刪了400萬那麼還有國外的旅費也被刪了大概400多萬我想對比其他的單位都是幾百萬幾百萬聽起來不多但是其實因為僑委會本身的預算也就不高"},{"start":6065.761,"end":6072.325,"text":"3月24號21號到24號我們知道在這個美國休士頓世界台商會的台商總會要交接了請問委員長會出席嗎這一場是第二次禮監事會我也會去特別參與那我知道我們外委會也有組團是沒錯可是現在從這個國外旅費就刪了400多萬所以您出國的費用是從這裡"},{"start":6092.677,"end":6115.504,"text":"跟委員報告我去年知道這個預算審查的狀況也本來在委員會很好可是到了這個二讀會以後我就發現這個趨勢不是很理想以後我從今年1月開始我們都有跟同仁說如果可以做經濟艙就不做商務艙那在5小時以下不用過夜的狀況我們盡量這樣安排甚至連廉價航空我也做"},{"start":6117.252,"end":6137.021,"text":"這個委員長以身作則希望在提升所謂的僑務的同時能夠不要面對我盡量不要犧牲到我們的僑務的各項活動所以我們在這樣子有限的資源之下但是我跟委員報告我們真的包括像旅費這件事情"},{"start":6137.621,"end":6163.686,"text":"我們就已經頭很痛了國內旅費本來就不多然後現在統三二十趴事實上這對我們已經造成非常嚴重的影響就是我們全國都到處有僑生我們要去視察那單單是這一些我們要到中南部東部去的時候我們現在每一個畜生家都頭都在燒就是說這個費用又不能留用那到時候這些"},{"start":6164.786,"end":6188.14,"text":"國內旅費我們到底怎麼辦所以我們現在都開始說如果只能去一個就不要去兩個就是盡量大家把業務甚至跨處式的要整併在一起變成僑生處的人要同時執行僑民處的或者僑商處的業務或僑商處的要同時執行僑民處的業務那這個就會造成我們在分工上確實很大的困擾因為為了我們降低我們的這個旅費"},{"start":6189.201,"end":6214.204,"text":"好 所以說我相信各部會其實像喬委會現在講得非常清楚這個就是整體的所謂預算該刪就刪但是刪成這樣的時候所引發的困難但是我們該做的事情或者是就像報告所想的中國運用各種方式在做滲透你這邊有特別提到的比如說像連英文名字到底是這個所謂的Spring Festival到底是Luna"},{"start":6214.824,"end":6234.934,"text":"New Year還是Chinese New Year這種他們都可以來做文章另外甚至於還發送暖心包其實我想問暖心包裡面有什麼喬委會有沒有去看到過我們是有去問啦但是大概他們就是講不外都是一些春節的應景的東西而已那所以"},{"start":6236.275,"end":6249.666,"text":"小東西我們就是觀察也沒有特別去跟他們做太多的文章但是這些小東西積少成多其實這個都是預算在裡面對不對所以中國大撒幣他們喜歡大撒幣那對我們來說我們預算是量入為出所以今年對我們來說會是一個真的很有感的一年我在最近這兩個月當中只要遇到僑團我都已經跟他們預告說要先跟你們抱歉了"},{"start":6263.678,"end":6275.218,"text":"今年我們的補助可能不但不能像去年一樣可能還要略減所以拜託大家辦活動的時候盡量大家可以整合合作在一起提高這個效率"},{"start":6276.138,"end":6280.321,"text":"好 所以妳就看到嘛 妳在報告也寫到嘛中國領事館人員是春節的時候密集拜會傳統橋設並致贈春節禮金紅包啊 一方面中國在給紅包結果剛剛徐委員長說不好意思藍白聯手把我們的總預算刪減了 尤其是像這種"},{"start":6297.876,"end":6301.957,"text":"業務費要用統三的出差旅費連人都到不了人家是到傳統橋社裡面親自拜訪還給紅包我覺得你們的考驗跟壓力非常大是 我們過去到傳統橋社去或者是中青會去我們也都會添一些香油錢固然是不多但是隨著我們整體的這個預算包括業務費被統三這確實會對我們產生一些影響本來包500可能現在只能包"},{"start":6328.74,"end":6346.3,"text":"這個450類似像這樣子那個量入為出所以我覺得這個部分恐怕也只能請委員長跟喬文惠碩的同仁真的這個他們在打金錢牌啊我們的人情牌網絡牌可能就要更發揮當然也需要靠我們在第一線在國外的這些所謂的喬商"},{"start":6347.782,"end":6373.23,"text":"朋友或者是橋梢同胞們一起來協助因為中國的打壓其實是非常的多包括去年其實像我們出席這個亞洲台商總會的時候就有發生這個一些狀況包括名牌不見了然後不能唱國歌等等其實現在的滲透非常的多但是這些滲透它其實傳達的都是一種"},{"start":6374.45,"end":6389.903,"text":"對於國家認同主權認同之爭本席其實有聽到一個訊息當然陸委會最新的報告也出來了就是中國目前他會打著抗爭所謂抗戰勝利光復80週年"},{"start":6391.804,"end":6412.236,"text":"為他們今年所訴求的主題要形塑所謂兩岸同屬一中而本席在這幾次出國跟僑界他們在溝通跟交流的時候我不知道僑委會有沒有聽到這樣的一個訊息就是現在我們已經來到三月即將四月也就是半年之後的國慶其實現在慢慢也要開始舉辦了傳統的僑界跟現在我們的所謂的"},{"start":6418.259,"end":6430.607,"text":"台橋朋友之間開始要準備國慶的同時不知道委員長有沒有聽到一個聲音是居然要把抗戰勝利80年這樣的一個主題跟我們的國慶綁在一起"},{"start":6436.29,"end":6459.88,"text":"確實是有的其實這個做法在過去幾年中共的統戰過程當中他們一直企圖要把這個過去的歷史重新解釋那今年當然是二戰中戰的八十週年紀念沒有錯所以他們企圖在國際輿論上要製造一個說這個中戰他是戰勝國可是事實上當時連中共都中華人民"},{"start":6463.562,"end":6490.336,"text":"共和國都還沒成立他們只有成立70年所以單單這個建國才70年怎麼可能去打80年的戰爭就打到他們自己的耳光了所以我們只要把清楚的歷史的史實資料做清楚的呈現當然我們也一樣要預防就像他們過去一直在搶國父孫中山先生的這個陣統一樣所以我們對於這種統戰的伎倆跟守法一直都保持高度的警戒"},{"start":6491.716,"end":6494.978,"text":"因為時間有限本期只是提醒因為現在要錢我們沒有辦活動的錢比不贏中國要宣傳整體的宣傳費也被藍白聯手現在砍掉了所以剛剛您的清楚論述如何正確的傳達給僑界如何讓僑界在辦活動或者尤其是像國慶這種慶祝活動的時候在整體的"},{"start":6515.566,"end":6527.538,"text":"所謂主權國家意識當中可以清楚的傳達可能就要考驗徐委員長跟所有我們僑委會同仁的智慧了謝謝委員提供的這個建議跟資訊好我們會加油謝謝謝謝林委員那現在有請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":6554.164,"end":6565.728,"text":"你好我們請委員長謝謝委員長謝謝陳委員你好委員長好委員長我們先看一下我們的這個簡報好這一個"},{"start":6571.124,"end":6581.254,"text":"今天的質詢重點其實是針對台灣我們這個名稱還有這個海外台灣人的很多正名運動來帶來的影響跟委員長討論特別是憲法第141條跟第151條中針對僑民跟僑居國外的國民的官方翻譯的問題這個"},{"start":6592.526,"end":6619.319,"text":"委員長現在僑委會的英文名稱全稱是什麼我們叫做Overseas Community Affairs Council對那其實它經過兩次的一個變更嘛對2006年的時候先把這個Overseas Chinese Affairs先改掉那2012年的時候配合行政院的組織再造那我們就改成是用Community就是小型的這樣子的名稱嘛那這個名稱"},{"start":6620.62,"end":6642.768,"text":"中信而且也是完全符合就是百分之百吻合這個音譯直譯意義都是直接是吻合的對可是現在在我們總統府跟全國法規資料庫的網站上面那將現場中的僑民跟僑居國外的國民那還是一律翻成是用"},{"start":6643.188,"end":6671.033,"text":"Chinese citizens那這樣子的翻譯方式我是覺得沒有辦法忠實的反映原文的意涵那這個跟憲法我們憲法上面是寫僑名嘛它沒有寫中華民國國民或者是中國國民或者是任何一個國民把這個國民的名稱把它寫上去而是用中憲的這個說法是用僑名嘛那所以除了憲法之外我們還有法務部內政部"},{"start":6672.313,"end":6683.535,"text":"陸委會外交部 經濟部 國防部 勞動部 交通部經管會 國科會 央行全部都還是將僑民翻譯成這個Overseas Chinese這個部分是"},{"start":6684.147,"end":6696.552,"text":"那我想請問一下這個委員長你怎麼看這個部分你覺得委員你實在非常掌握最新的脈動這個問題我很願意詳細的來跟您說明詳細跟全國民眾來說明一下這個我確實有注意到其他"},{"start":6705.855,"end":6729.906,"text":"僑委會以外的部會包括總統府的一些這個英文的資料文件所呈現出來的用詞那也剛好在兩個月前我們在海外有一個僑民投書也提到說僑委會都已經把各種的這種Chinese的這種用詞正名為就是Overseas compatriots"},{"start":6730.626,"end":6733.929,"text":"或者Overseas Community這樣的中性的名詞那為什麼還是國內有部分的這個部會沒有辦法跟進那這個投書當然我第一時間看到以後我有立即的把它傳給總統府的這個秘書室請他們去研議那也跟委員報告總統府也很快的就交辦了我們行政院的這個"},{"start":6755.506,"end":6760.21,"text":"民心政委所以我們在兩個禮拜前確實就召集跨部會的包括有法務部、國防部、外交部、教育部等等相關部會有開一個會議就是針對因應的這些名詞怎麼樣做一個整體性的改善那我們也有提供我們僑委會的一些範例供大家做討論"},{"start":6781.289,"end":6802.776,"text":"那一次的討論當中有還不錯的這個正向結果就是大家也都認同說我們只要中性的翻譯陳述就好並不需要加諸任何的這一種意識形態在裡面就像我們剛剛在提這個Spring Festival是叫春節但是農曆年叫做Lunar New Year"},{"start":6803.936,"end":6824.663,"text":"這個跟Chinese New Year是根本兩回事所以我是忠實於做translate翻譯的概念而已我並不帶著意識形態所以我這兩年一直鼓勵我們僑界說大家都用英文一定要講求精確不要帶有被中國洗腦的意識形態在裡面所以逐漸的我們這幾年確實僑界有把這種狀況改變"},{"start":6829.204,"end":6846.523,"text":"百變過來那本會呢各種出版品我們也逐漸在檢視就是還有沒有這樣子的情況存在我們就一一的把它修正就是Overseas Community可以講解了我們就寫Overseas Compatriots我們就不會再寫什麼Chinese這樣子的字眼了"},{"start":6847.223,"end":6868.754,"text":"非常樂見其成 我覺得這是我們諮詢的目的 也就是希望說能夠在因應上面能夠更忠實的把我們的這些法律上的條文也好或者是說網站上面的這一些注釋也好 都是很清楚清晰的讓國外來閱覽我們網站 閱覽我們的這些文件的時候不會有產生誤解的狀況"},{"start":6869.815,"end":6891.537,"text":"很高興兩個禮拜前就已經有開始有這樣的做法是希望說能夠但是也謝謝陳委員幫我們這個提醒讓我們有機會做這個說明謝謝那另外就是日本的日本政府其實上個月他月中也是允許台灣人在戶籍登記的時候用台灣而非中國那就是延續我們剛才的話題是那其實像是一些"},{"start":6892.498,"end":6915.613,"text":"歐洲國家不見得全面性的了解我們的狀況所以有些時候我們在跟丹麥爭取國際這個標記證明的運動的時候還是會受阻受阻的原因有時候說你們自己你們僑民的因應就用這樣子的說法為什麼一定要求我們戶籍要改另外一個名稱所以這也是為了我們所有的不管是一般民眾或者是這一個民團"},{"start":6916.654,"end":6932.992,"text":"或者是我們的國際的NGO在替我們在爭取的時候能夠有這樣子的做法是 我們在涉外的文件的時候一定尤其要注意翻譯成外文的時候不管它是英文 法文或德文我們都會謹記這種概念盡量地用中性的表述"},{"start":6933.982,"end":6955.111,"text":"另外一個部分我還是我就直接先有看到有這樣子的做法我們當然就覺得這是一個很正面的回饋但是我們很謝謝像日本我們很多僑民一直協助所以今年的5月23號開始就全面只要是來自台灣出生的或者來自台灣的民眾他都可以改變那個國籍及地區欄從中國改為台灣"},{"start":6957.372,"end":6982.623,"text":"好非常好那我希望說更加主動那跟其他的歐洲國家還有繼續來協助我們當地要證明的這些朋友們另外一個部分是跟我們的選區我們嘉義就有一點關係就是增加橋商跟國內供應鏈的連結這個委員長你知道我們嘉義即將有設立這個民雄的無人機無人機的航太園區"},{"start":6983.863,"end":6995.546,"text":"那作為我們台灣它是未來就是台灣發展國防民用無人機的這個重要的基地請問會有沒有一些機制來協助海外的橋商跟這個產業對接去年由這個嘉義縣的縣長也曾經帶了一團無人機的這個業者"},{"start":7006.048,"end":7010.731,"text":"去美國做這個巡迴的交流也相當的成功然後就去年的九月那這個航太無人機的邀訪團呢今年我們也會持續的辦理讓海外有興趣的這些橋台商可以回來台灣然後我們會讓他在台灣的這些無人機的產業鏈裡面"},{"start":7028.823,"end":7047.075,"text":"去進行交流 參訪跟會議然後也會持續希望大家能夠投資或者變成是一個橋樑可以引薦到海外去讓這個市場可以擴大那這部分呢我們從去年開始就有陸續在做相關的配套工作好 繼續努力謝謝 謝謝陳委員好 謝謝陳委員"},{"start":7066.861,"end":7076.032,"text":"我們請沈博洋委員好 謝謝主席 有請委員長有請委員長"},{"start":7083.434,"end":7105.988,"text":"陳委員你好委員長早因為一開始我先想說畢竟這一整年要推動很多的業務還是跟預算有關我知道僑委會有一些是大部分是統山的部分所影響但是也有一些個別的凍結目前來講統山的這些部分對僑委會未來的運作的影響大概是什麼"},{"start":7106.71,"end":7127.158,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們在一二月的時候我們就已經面臨一個很尷尬的處境因為我們六大官網從一月一號就要開始重新營運的這個相關作為那事實上我們都在去年都已經開標了那開完標以後結果我們的預算被這個刪減了四百多萬那我們已經開標到超過這個額數了所以當時我就有點"},{"start":7131.179,"end":7145.65,"text":"嚇到說不知道這樣子我今年要怎麼執行這個預算會有可能有差一兩百萬的這個缺口那所以這個確實是我們現在很大的一個困難那除此之外包括這個出國旅費還有業務費"},{"start":7147.171,"end":7171.389,"text":"也是有同樣的影響委員們都很關心我們在僑生的業務上如何去落實跟精進幫助學生在學習或者實習以及畢業之後的就業可是又把我們的國內旅費砍成這樣讓我們就沒有連要去查看這些學校的機率都要大幅下降人數也要縮減那這某個程度說起來是"},{"start":7172.53,"end":7186.316,"text":"變成讓我們的這個督察機制會減弱所以我們又不得留用的狀況之下我們現在是確實頭很痛這個都是很現實的狀況然後一般業務費是我們有些已經本來預計要給"},{"start":7188.217,"end":7202.067,"text":"海外的這個喬教中心或者是僱員做一定的這個設備的改善的結果因為這樣子不但沒有增加還又砍了10%所以這些也被迫今年可能都又要暫停了對 因為我覺得對喬委會來講這個國內外的旅費應該都很重要不然剛剛講的其實國內你要去看這些學校等等之類的"},{"start":7208.812,"end":7232.611,"text":"那我現在比較擔心的當然就是剛剛前面講的其實本來有一些約已經簽了嘛或者說你已經要做採購的動作那這個其實照理說本來在委員會大家互相討論一定是可以提出來的那太多的這個統山還有一些凍結它是在委員會之後才提出來所以就會造成這樣的問題但我看到凍結的部分也有跟這一個這個海外的僑生是有關係的那我們也只能趕快盡快來安排這個解凍啦不然的話我看僑委會這樣很難運作"},{"start":7236.434,"end":7265.974,"text":"我們如果這個解凍案沒有在今年五六月就完成的話那勢必會造成我們下一半年在執行上面對很大的挑戰那學生如果真的進來了那你該補助的沒有補助到位我們也會變成學校都會一直去跟委員陳情然後我們就會很困擾所以不是我們不想付這個錢而是因為解凍案還沒有通過現在這真的是麻煩的地方就是說剛剛聽到前面很多委員其實關心很多事項但這些事項都需要預算執行我覺得這是最困擾的地方"},{"start":7266.594,"end":7293.934,"text":"那我想問一下因為剛剛這一個我記得是儲殷委員也有問所以我這個稍微快一點就是說因為賴總統在前陣子有這一個記者會他的談話裡面有這個17項措施他裡面有幾個措施看起來跟僑委會是有關的比如說這一個你跟有盟國家合作那有盟國家合作其實跟我們的僑民能不能夠生根能不能夠跟他們做一些遊說這是有關係的然後全球的佈局這跟他們的投資也有關係那最重要的我覺得是最後一個"},{"start":7294.694,"end":7307.48,"text":"就是我們對中國的這個嗜讀教育我看到這個的時候其實我就記得我們去年在質詢僑委會的時候就已經講過就是說怎麼對海外去宣導他們現在對中國的認識那這個其實回過頭來到國內其實僑委會這個部分是不是應該可以複製讓國內的學校也可以能夠針對我們的青年學子做這樣的一些這個宣導"},{"start":7317.327,"end":7342.128,"text":"是 事實上強化學生年輕朋友的嗜讀能力我覺得這件事情很重要不單單只有在對國家認同或者是中國統戰的部分事實上因為全球的假訊息fake news等等的威脅也非常的嚴峻所以如何提高判斷能力嗜讀能力這件事情我覺得是我們公民教育裡面真的是刻不容緩的"},{"start":7342.928,"end":7345.85,"text":"那所以我們在平時除了對我們僑團做這些這個相關的課程研究以外我們也逐步會想辦法把它在教材的補充裡面也把某些例子融入進去希望能夠引起他們的討論那尤其是在比較民主自由的國家裡面這樣子的威脅挑戰是需要大家全部的年輕朋友都一起提升才有辦法"},{"start":7368.462,"end":7374.707,"text":"那我們也願意分享我們的經驗來國內所以國內的部分我們包括僑生進來我們現在的新生手冊當然都是跟他們權益比較相關的但未來如果有需求我們也會強化在這一部分來提供一些遇到假訊息 錯假訊息要怎麼來處理跟面對的SOP作業事實上我們現在已經開辦了一個專線電話的專線是七語的"},{"start":7395.683,"end":7406.825,"text":"然後也有這個email的這個帳號是他們可以投書來呈現一些問題那一旦有我們就會馬上去把這個案例擴大去做宣導"},{"start":7407.714,"end":7434.135,"text":"因為我記得我們在去年的時候就有講過就是說我們在海外尤其像認知作戰等等之類的其實我還沒有進來之前就有跟僑委會討論過這一個課程那當然說第一個課程的設計是重要的那第二個就是網站我們那時候有提到說其實網站應該更多即時的更新讓這一個海外他們也可以去認知到說比如說中國在海外做什麼操作但是剛剛這樣聽起來光是海外網站的建置現在預算可能都會出現一些問題"},{"start":7434.855,"end":7458.204,"text":"是確實很有影響然後再來就是外交部因為畢竟外交部現在海外的這些宣導的費用現在是被砍成副的所以基本上是沒有辦法運作那就只能靠僑委會看能不能在這個總預算現在還沒有恢復之前能不能做一些補足因為畢竟跟外交部就像兩隻腳一樣如果僑委會這麼能夠雖然我知道僑委會現在也是很困難但是如果能夠協助的話對外交部應該會是一個很大的幫助"},{"start":7458.444,"end":7478.924,"text":"比較外交部的國傳司全部砍除變複數我們算相對的幸運但即便是這樣也是困難我們會在這個困難當中因為預算也積極很低所以我們六大官網我們還是會努力來經營想盡辦法用最精準的方式快速的方式來達到這個目標"},{"start":7480.965,"end":7494.011,"text":"對 算是幸運啦不過我看他們當時可能也只是忘記砍而已所以我真的不知道為什麼會這個樣子但是很亂七八糟那再來就是這個統戰的部分因為之前我問過比較多我想問這一個台商這個我先跳過就是這個天下雜誌的報導剛剛其實有蠻多委員問到的"},{"start":7496.852,"end":7516.645,"text":"那我這個可能想請這個委員長再說一下就是說呢這個仲介目前來講它的確是個嚴重的問題嘛那目前我們能夠譬如說逮到它的這個機制是什麼是有人回報嗎還是我們主動查核呢等等之類是用什麼樣的機制還是說跟其他的部會合作因為對我們來講我們知道這是問題嘛但是要怎麼去揪到這個問題現在執行的狀況是什麼"},{"start":7520.894,"end":7526.039,"text":"跟委員說明在學生還沒有正式辦簽證進來以前事實上我們在海外的派駐點都有我們的僑秘書他們是會進行第一波的interview的所以他們會去抽查那抽查在問這些學生的基本問題的時候就可以找到一些症狀"},{"start":7539.793,"end":7567.888,"text":"就是說這一批整個是從哪一個系統進來的那從這裡面去跟他問多問幾個學生以後就會發現說他們學生有些他沒有特別的心防他會知道他會忠實交代他交了多少錢什麼什麼什麼那我們就會開始掌握那如果這一批全部是這樣的話我們就高度懷疑他就是仲介的出力那整批我們就不給他進來了事實上從去年開始我們就已經開始落實這樣的做法那因此當然這個凡有利可圖仲介必達"},{"start":7568.888,"end":7589.08,"text":"所以我們當然也得罪了一些仲介所以有些仲介已經想辦法說我的壞話說造謠的狀況非常非常的嚴峻投訴到總統府行政院外交部各種管道的都有不過還好我們國家有我們調查的機制這些最後都被歸檔而已因為都不是事實甚至有跑到我們的代表處去鬧事的"},{"start":7591.321,"end":7611.61,"text":"那進來以後事實上學生他們還是有一些人可能當時沒有抓到的因為我剛剛講的說我們有一個專線那這專線學生他可以隨時打電話來跟我們做通報或者是我們也會不定期去跟學校做抽查的時候會找學生來座談跟詢問所以一旦我們問到說你為什麼要特別轉校"},{"start":7612.37,"end":7616.033,"text":"我們就會掌握某些脈絡我們就開始會循線去調查所以過去兩年我們確實是已經把某些東西鎖死了但是不排除有很多新型態會持續的發生所以我們AWS必須要保持一個很謹慎的態度來觀察這些這個"},{"start":7632.145,"end":7653.379,"text":"可能的違法情勢不過現在護照跟拘留證這件事情已經在去年11月12月被我們全部矯正了所以現在大概沒有人敢把學生的個人文件扣留了因為時間的關係我現在想說剛剛前面我重整一下第一個是前面有一個面談的機制就是說他就算來到台灣之後也會有專線所以也會有訪查"},{"start":7655.82,"end":7668.851,"text":"那但我相信這種事情可能會越來越嚴重因為我們的移工啊等等之類講到說這方面的問題嘛一些仲介的問題所以如果在這個之後呢他在執法上或者在查緝上的量能不足的話有可能僑委會還是要提早說"},{"start":7669.608,"end":7692.657,"text":"有 而且我們也定期跟勞動部保持密切的聯繫有些相關的情勢我們也會通報給勞動部然後也會通報給教育部 也會通報給外交部畢竟這個裡面還有包括他們簽證的問題還有他們一旦喪失這些學生的資格的時候我們發現立即通報移民署就會馬上遞解出境謝謝委員長 謝謝"},{"start":7706.667,"end":7720.602,"text":"好 我們現在請林益君委員上台質詢有請委員長林委員你好"},{"start":7728.897,"end":7734.202,"text":"委員長好我們也知道0403花蓮地震其實本市一直都是想要振興花東的災後的觀光的產業其實對這個東西我覺得是我其實是相當的憂心所以也是一直在努力的協助所以我有一些問題想要請教一下委員長請問委員長橋委會目前是不是有針對橋包回台觀光旅遊這是不是有一個哀橋卡"},{"start":7754.199,"end":7756.68,"text":"我們愛僑卡並不是說單純為僑胞的返國旅遊這愛僑卡是比較早以前從2017年那時候叫做認同卡那僑胞認同卡當時的功能性比較不是只有在精神層面的比較不是實務層面但是到2021年我們開始把它變成是從實體卡轉為數位卡"},{"start":7777.324,"end":7793.695,"text":"之後我們開始大量的增加各種功能性的提升包括增加這個所謂的優惠措施就是有特約商店那現在國內跟海外的特約商店有超過4000家好那我再請教一下就是說那目前愛喬卡在花蓮和台東的特約的商店各有多少家請問委員長知道嗎花蓮台東"},{"start":7803.702,"end":7805.223,"text":"宜蘭應該這樣講就是整個東台灣的這個家宿目前的這個大概有將近100家應該這樣講花蓮64家台東31家然後如果加上宜蘭的話大概有150家"},{"start":7820.171,"end":7842.456,"text":"但是我這邊的資料看起來是花蓮只有27家台東只有20家那我再請問一下就是說這些店家如何申請才可以取得愛喬卡的特約商店的情況呢我們可以在網站上我們有加入特約商店的一些SOP作業那如果他有興趣我們就會給他發一個這個標章"},{"start":7845.677,"end":7848.498,"text":"它這個貼紙可以貼在它自己的店的門口我們會把它納入我們的網站那同時我們也會去巡查就是說那你要提供什麼樣的優惠措施有些這個等於說我們再多幫它增加一條管道來去做行銷嘛"},{"start":7864.062,"end":7867.885,"text":"那有一些僑胞回來的時候總是想要買一些小禮品或者是飲食食品想要帶出去的那這個部分有愛僑卡的運用會多少增加一些幫助打個九五折九折等等的或者送什麼產品這個都會有一定的幫助所以我們是歡迎花東地區能夠增加因為我現在看我們以花蓮市大部分是以觀光為主"},{"start":7891.062,"end":7899.871,"text":"但是愛喬卡如果照這樣如果是像我剛才所說的27家太少我們就要找出這樣的問題這樣的問題是不是主動申請的人太少有的那個27家可能是舊的資料我們最新的是64家了但是64家還是少嘛所以我們今天就是說是主動的申請的少呢還是因為審核我們都沒有辦法過呢基本上他們是可以主動來跟我們說要申請的"},{"start":7914.625,"end":7936.698,"text":"我們基本上我們審核的標準也都不會太高所以幾乎沒有拒絕的除非他不能提供任何優惠他如果不提供任何優惠當然就沒辦法參加我們的愛喬卡特約商店那你可以像累積到現在花蓮和台東提出來的申請愛喬卡特約數量有多少到時候可以目前是95家就是花蓮64然後通過的話是60家這樣就對了不是不是"},{"start":7941.061,"end":7957.758,"text":"已經通過的就已經是95家了在花蓮是64在台東是31那如果再加上宜蘭的話那就更多那100多那我們是歡迎所有的花蓮可能我想東部地區可能比較少店家知道我們有這個愛橋卡啦"},{"start":7959.279,"end":7962.721,"text":"那可能你就要宣傳嘛對不對因為我們通常是對外宣傳比較少對國內宣傳不過國內的知名企業他們都知道來加入我們這個系統所以像義美啦或者是這個阿壽皮茄啦新東洋啦這些知名企業其實我們也有主動去跟他們這個洽那他們也都很願意加入我們這個他們有勸的都很願意加入我們的系統"},{"start":7983.112,"end":7987.354,"text":"好我現在還有看到一個就是僑委會113年也你們也跟34家旅行業者合作然後規劃全台各地的人文的特色和觀光的亮點總共有162條的旅遊路線但是我仔細看了一下去年的僑委會雖然有補助了162條路線但是實際上我們花東地區有關這樣的路線只有10條而已而且占不到兩成那委員長你覺得這樣是不是很偏心呢是不是太少呢"},{"start":8009.182,"end":8018.552,"text":"我們沒有偏心啦因為這些路線都是業者自己自行規劃提出的而且去年我們還特別針對花東區因為在403的大地震以後鼓勵僑胞可以繼續來花東地區旅遊我們把補助金額從3000提高到3600其他區都維持3000只有花東我們再多增加600"},{"start":8031.745,"end":8040.389,"text":"可是因為去年的狀況還不是很好所以即便增加了多600塊的補助誘因不是那麼強那委員長你有沒有想過為什麼會成效不佳像剛才我們講到最後就是說成效不佳嘛是不是我們是應該是讓僑胞有比較多選擇的項目呢去加強呢就是像讓他們申請就是店家都來申請嘛然後還是說我們這個規劃的路線太少了呢所以有10條啊所以這個誘因不高所以大家就不會想要去我想跟"},{"start":8060.299,"end":8073.834,"text":"跟這個路線的多少不是重點主要是去年的結構是花東地區的那個地震還是很頻繁那還有就是說交通的需求"},{"start":8075.196,"end":8080.738,"text":"會影響到僑胞他們回來的這個旅遊意願那畢竟僑胞回來時間有限嘛所以他一定要妥善的去安排如果花東如果臨時有什麼取消班次啦或者是取消車班的情況他們就會擔心因此這個也會降低一些意願我想我們會持續照委員的建議來強化多提高我們在花東區的特約商店那今年我們照道理因為"},{"start":8105.009,"end":8110.877,"text":"403的這個地震告一段落我們是不是要持續要補助但是我也同意委員說要鼓勵花東的旅遊所以今年的慶典當中10月份我們對於僑胞的這個旅行我們仍然願意給花東區比較高的補助"},{"start":8121.411,"end":8137.879,"text":"因為現在已經三月份了嘛再過半年雙十國慶就要來了嘛然後到時候會有大量的僑胞回台嘛所以僑委會你家如何的改善還有推廣增加僑胞到花東觀光的旅遊的誘因是不是可以積極的都透過一些管道宣傳回國旅遊的時候藉由僑團還是僑委會的不過我跟委員再補充一點就是說僑界也跟我們反映啦這個不單只針對花蓮台東而已就是說"},{"start":8148.504,"end":8167.389,"text":"他們也到全世界各地去對台灣的旅遊他們都有興趣但他們覺得台灣的住房費用偏高這件事情也是他們會覺得不想多去的一個原因所以我們怎麼樣提高品質跟價格可以達到一個合理的狀態"},{"start":8168.829,"end":8174.772,"text":"我知道因為小學會的本業本來就是不主管觀光的業務但是畢竟政府團隊是一起的我們都會配合政府的政策當然為了全台灣的人好那當然是要怎麼樣促進大家經濟的發展嘛對不對我們也會在我們網站多幫忙行銷花東地區的這個觀光"},{"start":8188.26,"end":8191.201,"text":"謝謝那委員長我再問一下就是面對中國對台灣甚至對全球採取軟性的文化統戰這個是越來越明顯了甚至打壓台灣在國際的生存的空間然後現在我本席我剛剛今天看了你們的業務報告的第四頁第二點中國運用春節活動展開文化統戰"},{"start":8208.929,"end":8215.174,"text":"近年來中國國僑辦贈送新春暖心包還有一些 贈送一些特別的小物給海外的僑胞還有中國使領館的人員也會在春節的時候拜會了傳統的僑社還有並致贈春節的禮金那我想要請教委員長一下就是像你們剛剛自己列的這些目標應該是不是要更積極地掌握各種同戰的情資呢還有我們都會怎麼樣去提醒"},{"start":8237.772,"end":8243.256,"text":"可能會被中共操作成為統戰宣傳的樣本還有怎麼樣面對中共在海外無所不用其極的金錢還有人情的攻勢有沒有更積極還有更有效的因應措施因為我剛才看了這整篇之後我覺得這些做法都是偏於一般的傳統的交流還有應對似乎都是沒有那麼積極"},{"start":8260.331,"end":8279.765,"text":"我們在外都有做第一線的佈局所以我們第一線的同仁跟我們外交單位的人也都會密切去關注跟收集這些情資一旦有一些動作出現我們後面都會跟進來做相關的處理那當然近年因為中共對於全球的統戰跟滲透"},{"start":8282.126,"end":8294.899,"text":"持續的嚴峻加強所以有些像加拿大或美國歐洲國家已經都祭出一些法律就是外國代理人法在進行調查所以如果有再更進一步的情勢狀況我們也會請我們僑民去做跟當地的執法單位提醒通報"},{"start":8302.526,"end":8320.622,"text":"那如果是有涉我的部分我們也會努力的來跟僑團去做溝通因為這兩年確實有一些中共代理人被抓跟起訴那這也形成某種這個親中的僑團有稍微比較這個"},{"start":8324.585,"end":8341.739,"text":"應該說變低調轉趨低調那傳統橋社大家也都是在地資訊都有收集到所以大家對於跟中共方面中領館、使領館的這些互動往來都會刻意的想要保持一些距離不過他們確實是有強化要"},{"start":8344.321,"end":8353.348,"text":"提更多的好處給這些傳統僑社不過我們也在後面都有密切的在溝通跟觀察避免這種往來的金錢遊戲持續的加碼我們不跟他玩這種遊戲的我現在只是想說提醒僑委會就是我們不要跟外交部一樣現在我們台灣的邦交國已經被中共拉攏剩下12個國家了現在還無人為力所以我希望說僑委會這邊我們可以凝聚台灣人的愛國心和向心力讓台灣在國際有生存的空間不要再受到中共的打擾"},{"start":8373.883,"end":8397.042,"text":"好的謝謝林委員謝謝林委員現在請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在那現在有請張啟凱委員上台質詢"},{"start":8408.493,"end":8411.294,"text":"請委員長 來 何秦委員長張委員早安早安 委員長 應該要恭喜你 你今年總議席增加多少總有 只有增加一億多"},{"start":8430.802,"end":8454.489,"text":"兩億五千七百五十四億兩億五千七百五十四萬一千塊錢這個要恭喜啦 表示你第一個可能做得不錯第二個就是我們對我以為那個都是一個蘿蔔一個坑因為是學生的那個補助費反正你做得不錯 業務量也在增加這對我們的僑胞是好的啦那你剛剛在擔心一個事情你在說凍結事情"},{"start":8455.66,"end":8467.375,"text":"我請問一下 僑委會從成立到現在有因為立法院凍結預算導致你們痴愛燃省真的沒辦法做嗎?有史以來喔 不是只有你這個不正喔有史以來僑委會曾經因為"},{"start":8470.029,"end":8486.16,"text":"立法院凍結了你們的預算導致你們業務推動上有困難嗎跟委員報告這一次的凍結及刪除是我們近十年來最高的一次結果第一個你的親兒還是那麼多嘛我現在跟你講一個但是委員跟你報告我的業務增加了兩倍"},{"start":8487.08,"end":8499.333,"text":"所以我預算才增加不到才兩億可是我的工作是增加兩倍所以如果按照這個邏輯應該給我增加二十億才對可是我預算沒辦法一下增加這麼多所以我們這個基期是慢慢在加的可是才加一點點兩億我就被砍掉五千了對"},{"start":8507.955,"end":8521.221,"text":"大家重視這個僑務這個是非常好的啦不過錢也不可能一下跳兩倍啦你業務量當然要一直在增加我現在再強調一個點今年的僑委會的預算是比去年增加了兩億多的第二個如果凍結從歷年來為什麼有凍結凍結不是刪減啊"},{"start":8526.443,"end":8541.022,"text":"山簡回不來 凍結馬上就可以處理我從民國76年來跑地方委員這次的凍結之所以奇怪是因為他本來都在委員會可以處理我們就這樣子處理提書報沒有問題但今年有一些預算的凍結是要到院會"},{"start":8542.795,"end":8564.703,"text":"而且是報告後要經同意使得動資這個的話代表說我們在排案的時候時間會拖很久那我們該發包的東西我們會來不及去執行重點在這裡比方說我六七月要做英語營計畫了那我英語營計畫被凍結的這個額數如果不能在六月以前解凍那我這個要支付廠商我怎麼支付"},{"start":8565.363,"end":8591.091,"text":"馬上我七月底就辦完了所以這是我擔心的問題事實上送到院會去解凍這個在以前也有過啦你現在就趕快去要求你們的重點應該是每次的提案裡面都有他的暗流嘛對不對他到底做什麼事情你現在說應該準備好家青你現在我已經準備好了準備好了我已經準備好了我現在要等立法院的排案所以我就要問啦第一個你跟沈博洋關係好不好如果在委員會趕快排如果院會趕快去要求委員會的部分我不擔心我現在提一個點非常重要"},{"start":8593.092,"end":8605.394,"text":"歷年來被凍結預算後來沒有解凍的非常非常少我給大家看一個資料但是委員歷年來去到院會做解凍的也非常非常少"},{"start":8606.405,"end":8627.344,"text":"今年是非常特殊的一年不但額度很高而且是送院會去報告然後要經同意才使得動作其實來得及啊現在院會都已經開議了啊院會會耽誤你們的解凍嗎不是因為我們而已還有其他各部會啊大家一起排案的啊其他部會比我們多很多我們就會被犧牲排到最後面去啊"},{"start":8628.024,"end":8651.711,"text":"你為什麼一定會排到後面去我希望我人可以支持我們讓我們排在最前面可以定型啦不見得誰先誰後也不是說一個案子一個案子要花很多時間每個案子都要經同意所以要表決的你說同時上去嘛我現在提一個點非常重要歷年來光是民國94年凍結的這個比例今年凍結全部4.6%"},{"start":8654.412,"end":8660.575,"text":"2005年凍結多少12.71%欸凍結了2078億民國95年凍結了13.24%金額是2130億啊那時候每一年都可以如期的解凍啊今年為什麼不行所以不要再叫"},{"start":8673.53,"end":8680.432,"text":"委員那時候一樣是草小野大的狀態沒有錯但是當時的凍結有些東西是凍結在這個新興計劃裡面但是這一次我們很大的部分是一部車子性能很好可是呢沒有給我們足夠的油錢所以我們就只能開到之後就停止了我會盡力克服你應該是解決問題的人不是要一直在解釋問題沒有我是在克服啊你趕快把相關的提案送到議員會如果是委員會你送個損保養趕快排就解凍了"},{"start":8703.779,"end":8727.537,"text":"好的 謝謝委員不要一直在解釋問題現在裡面這個是不好的而且從以前的例子不管凍結的這個比例比你們多了三倍四倍都是解凍的趕快去解決問題我來談我看你今天這個報告裡面的第三頁是特別強調海外的這個橋台商企業長期在提升台灣全球競爭力上面扮演非常關鍵的角色接下來我們幫我們的橋台商來講講話"},{"start":8732.128,"end":8755.099,"text":"那總統沒有跟大家溝通 也沒有討論突然就宣布說把中國大陸定義為境外敵對勢力那你這邊衝擊應該就會很大了因為你這個僑胞裡面很多也是台商嘛 對不對很多台商 很多僑商的這個代表 領袖他可能同時在中國大陸那邊他也是一個台商組織的這個領袖嘛 對不對"},{"start":8757.557,"end":8760.4,"text":"那這個對你衝擊 你要怎麼去保障這些僑商跟委員報告這個僑委會主管的權限範圍是不包含海峽兩岸三地這個是屬於陸委會的權責範圍我是在海峽兩岸三地之外的台商才是我們努力的這個目標所以這個權限範圍不一樣"},{"start":8779.198,"end":8793.97,"text":"好 所以委員長來我具體要求三個因為重疊性太高嘛所以要求第一個你對僑商團體還有僑民團體跟中國大陸台商團體身份有重疊的你要趕快去做一個統計所以我們過去五六年來已經這樣在做你目前手上有這個統計嗎"},{"start":8797.213,"end":8814.105,"text":"我們在應該講我們跟海基會有在尋求了解一些資料事實上這五年六年來從中國移出的台商到東南亞佈局的比例相當高這是一個事實那個委員長這要非常具體啦好不好你的這個僑民處僑商處跟僑商處今天有疊嗎要趕快動起來這個要很明確的因應跟統計好不好你多久可以給我這個資料一個禮拜"},{"start":8825.051,"end":8828.993,"text":"你們的手上應該要有啊 重疊的部分有些我們要跟海基會跟陸委會去對一下要對一下 要對一下比如說進出中國大陸 老實講風險就增高了其實不單單是在中國投資的台商風險高現在連我們在海外其他的那些美國公民的台商或者是日本公民的台商他們進到中國一樣有風險"},{"start":8849.205,"end":8860.174,"text":"那個風險就是因為中國的國安法通過以後他們可以不定期的沒有理由的把他拘留你把重疊人數統計出來給我第二個你要對他們造成什麼樣的一個衝擊跟風險評估做個評估給我好不好這個應該是陸委會的職責吧沒有啦你重疊部分啦對你的僑胞第三部分對僑民僑商跟僑生以後進出中國大陸"},{"start":8871.823,"end":8875.747,"text":"我相信這三個書應該都要動起來了吧對我們都有都有在宣導都請大家盡量減少去對你做什麼樣的因應啦這是BOSE你講的他們供僑胞跟僑民對我們貢獻這麼大對不對那這是國家有新的這個措施了對於他們的風險跟這個怎麼樣去讓他們避險怎麼保護他們我們一起努力好不好好的謝謝一個禮拜內把這個資料給我好不好好謝謝張委員好謝謝"},{"start":8894.019,"end":8916.353,"text":"好 謝謝張委員 那就再一個禮拜把資料給張委員那這個接下來請賴世寶委員上台質詢賴世寶 賴世寶 賴世寶委員不在接下來請徐欣盈委員上台質詢徐欣盈 徐欣盈 徐欣盈委員不在現在請黃國昌委員上台質詢"},{"start":8927.589,"end":8928.631,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請委員長委員長"},{"start":8936.659,"end":8959.948,"text":"黃委員你好委員長好,我前一陣子發了一個函請你們提供給我僑務委員的名單是到目前為止都沒有正式的回文給我跟委員報告,我們有跟因為你們,我先一樣一樣來我到目前為止聽到了只有電話回覆那我想先確立一個基本的原則"},{"start":8961.652,"end":8970.189,"text":"僑委會對於委員發函的所知都是用電話回覆嗎?不是那為什麼到現在沒有公文回我呢?這樣對嗎?"},{"start":8973.204,"end":8997.493,"text":"委員我們有跟辦公室做說明我知道是電話回覆我們已經準備好一個一個機密檔案是要我親自送到辦公室給你看所以要跟你約時間什麼時候會送來就看委員辦公室給我時間是因為委員辦公室一直沒有給我時間所以我那個資料一直準備好我是要親自帶過去沒有我到目前為止我跟委員長說明一下就是說"},{"start":8998.934,"end":9014.564,"text":"因為我辦公室同仁在跟對外聯繫的時候如果是公務電話打來他們都會做電話記錄我目前為止所看到的改革委員報告我們不只是打電話我們有請我們國會組的同仁到辦公室去溝通然後你們回來就說僑務委員是"},{"start":9019.427,"end":9043.839,"text":"機密資訊嘛然後所以我要看過往都是由委員長親自向委員說明這個是你們目前的同仁給我的口頭回覆確實是這樣我們不分哪個黨派都一樣的做法所以所有的標準都一樣嗎是甚至之前柯總召跟我要我也沒有給他沒有關係啦剛剛你所謂用密件回覆的打算什麼時候回給我"},{"start":9045.191,"end":9069.66,"text":"就看委員什麼時間有空我就隨時把那個資料帶去只有能現場給你看完我就要收回我們先來就國家的制度面上來討論這個問題因為僑務委員是依照僑務委員會組織法的規定由總統任命的我的理解應該沒錯吧有法源依據我目前的法規"},{"start":9071.241,"end":9084.047,"text":"到底在什麼地方把喬武委員的身份是列為機密因為我在法規找了半天完全找不到我們到底是依照什麼法規把喬武委員的身份列為機密"},{"start":9085.848,"end":9114.958,"text":"好 各位委員報告 這個都在我們的細則裡面是主要過去這20年 中共的哪一個細則我們有我們內部的行政細則沒有關係啊 你把那個行政細則 等一下直接提供給我好不好該不會連這個細則也是密件吧不會 細則可以提供來 你們喲 僑務委員其實每年都開會嘛這個都是公開的場合啊"},{"start":9116.508,"end":9141.316,"text":"開僑務委員會議的時候也不是機密會議嗎沒有公開沒有開會的時候只有總統逆鄰致死的時候有媒體之後都全部清場的OK來我們再來看一下2025年3月12號你們在僑委會的網站公告續任僑務委員吳怡銘嗎是新任僑務委員有哪些人嗎那這不是機密嗎"},{"start":9142.592,"end":9168.235,"text":"跟委員報告 這個都是真的當事人同意他們想要登 我們才會讓他們登出來分兩類嘛一個是當事人同意 一個是當事人不同意嘛那現在當事人同意的有幾個人因為你要聘喬烏委員嘛那你剛講的那些理由 我大概以前都聽過啦所以應該分兩類嘛一個是當事人同意 一個是當事人不同意嘛現在當事人同意的有幾個人"},{"start":9169.145,"end":9191.011,"text":"我們現在全球不到180個是171個僑務委員那同意的有幾個人同意的我們這個大概站數量有相當多但是仍然有將近二三十個不同意沒有關係啊那所以就分兩個而已嘛是同意的名單就不是機密了嘛是吧"},{"start":9192.765,"end":9200.155,"text":"應該這樣子講就是說我們可以提供某些名單讓委員看過那不同意的我們就不提供"},{"start":9201.3,"end":9228.555,"text":"這個當然沒有問題所以我才說分兩類但是我們基於不想幫對岸整理好完整的資料揭露請你聽完我的問題再回答因為分兩類一個是同意的一個是不同意的不同意的在法規上面他們有沒有不同意的理由我們可以再討論同意的部分就沒有列為機密的必要這樣沒有錯吧"},{"start":9230.982,"end":9252.633,"text":"基本上他們如果同意我們是可以公開其實這個事情從很早以前就開始吵了2002年那個時候的僑委會他的立場是什麼他說選出來本來就是要服務僑胞如果不公開的確不適當這個時候那個時候的僑委會的主委應該是張復美張主委"},{"start":9255.721,"end":9275.386,"text":"張委員長他那個時候在面對立法院詢問的時候他的立場就是這個樣子所以這個立場是什麼時候改變的我們這個立場都一致沒有改變來看一下2002年11月12號僑委會公開全部僑委名單如果都一致的話2002年11月12號怎麼會有這個媒體報導"},{"start":9279.946,"end":9301.419,"text":"而且我們沒有公開啊沒有沒有2002年11月12號你說從以前到現在都一致嘛對啊所以我們一直沒有公佈啊沒有沒有先停一下所以這個是假新聞嗎這是真的啊所以他有公他沒有公佈啊等一下等一下僑委會公開全部僑委名單你有看到嗎沒有啊看右手邊"},{"start":9307.567,"end":9315.07,"text":"僑委會公開全部僑委名單 白紙黑字寫在上面沒有 那也沒有真的全部公開 也沒有欸 那奇怪囉 來來來來來2003年3月 從來沒有過2003年3月 這個是在立法院的委員會紀錄喔來看一下張委員長赴美"},{"start":9329.533,"end":9357.11,"text":"僑務委員由總統聘請他們的名單都會公佈目前我們計畫印製簡單的手冊如果大院委員有需要我們都會提供這個是立法院公報的資訊所以你說這是假訊息嗎我不能說是假訊息但是當時的回應之後也是沒有提供奇怪了對他們都已經那個時候都已經公佈名單啊在立法院裡面都這樣講"},{"start":9358.649,"end":9371.867,"text":"然後你還在否認這個客觀的指示我的認知是當時張委員長雖然有做這個回應但之後也是沒有公開所以你的意思是說他在立法院講一套後來做另外一套是這樣嗎"},{"start":9373.137,"end":9388.851,"text":"我不知道 我沒有辦法為以前的事情負責跟委員說明 當時是一樣的做法就是沒有做一份名單對外公開但是有親自拿去給委員看過就像我現在要送去給你看的是一樣的做法所以張委員長是那樣子做的他在委員會裡面就已經講了"},{"start":9395.182,"end":9416.656,"text":"他說大院委員有需要會提供,但是沒有講什麼提供方式,所以確實後來是以去拜會委員親自拿給委員看過,然後就收回,確實是這樣的做法再來看一下,你說從以前到現在,剛剛我已經跟你講了從以前是怎麼處理到現在這個是民進黨的蘇巧惠委員的資訊,連蘇巧惠委員都在質疑"},{"start":9420.711,"end":9434.646,"text":"他說這個是大家覺得身負重任非常光榮的代表台灣然後他跟你們所知然後你們也給他了那你們給他的名字上面是用黃圈名羅圈結"},{"start":9436.246,"end":9464.682,"text":"有提供給他他對於你們這種公開的方式也表達不滿但我現在的問題是啊我連蘇巧惠委員這種遮蔽中間名字的名單都拿不到這到底是怎麼回事啊你們是面對不同黨派的沒有委員我們當時也是給他看就收回了也沒有真的給他這個做法我們都是一致的就是說我們會請委員長或副委員長親自帶去委員辦公室給委員看過看完以後一樣收回"},{"start":9465.852,"end":9491.923,"text":"那奇怪了那他為什麼手上會有僑務委員名單他沒有啊那他上面寫說給我的名單需要用黃圈名羅圈結陳圈錦就是現場拿給他看的東西啊所以這是他背下來的就對了這是啊他可能憑印象背的啊我老實這樣講啦齁這件事情啊目前在法規上面其實是沒有編密件的法律依據剛剛你說有細則嘛"},{"start":9493.826,"end":9520.734,"text":"任何對於這種資訊的遮蔽任何對這種資訊的遮蔽在沒有法規的授權之下我們還是要尊重當事人的意願啊是啊 所以就分兩類嘛一個是當事人願意 一個是當事人不願意嘛現在我先不跟你扯法規嘛最起碼當事人願意的那個部分剛剛你說過沒有問題嘛 是吧當事人有意願的部分的名單什麼時候可以提供"},{"start":9521.827,"end":9541.393,"text":"委員我是已經準備好一份要拿去你辦公室給你看了就是當事人有意願的部分但是我們仍然不希望這一份資料流出去還是為了國家安全跟個人隱私如果是這樣啦我基本上的建議是這個如果要編密件必須要有法律授權的基礎"},{"start":9542.604,"end":9559.56,"text":"密件不一定要法律授權不一樣等一下等一下先停一下你說密件不需要法律授權我們的公文處理不見得是要依據我們的行政命令就可以處理密件了如果啦按照你這樣講是成立的啊國家機密保護法根本沒有立法的必要嘛"},{"start":9561.594,"end":9576.585,"text":"當初國家機密保護法為什麼要立法台灣是民主法治的國家欸我是機密我有 我跟您報告一下我們在海外的委員在各個不同的國家大家有不同的處境有些國家是單一國籍的"},{"start":9577.125,"end":9599.414,"text":"如果他已經成為當地的公民他還仍然保有台灣的國籍然後或者他是擔任我們的僑務委員同時這個身份的時候他可能會被當地的政府追究所以我這事情我們不是可以這麼單純的去思考剛剛你講的啦是理由的部分啦我現在在跟你講的是你在編密件的時候有沒有法律授權基礎的部分"},{"start":9600.475,"end":9627.503,"text":"我要這樣講今天即使你講的理由可以有討論的空間但是一樣要有法律的授權才可以編密件這個是我在法律上面的理解如果一個公務機關沒有法律授權的依據他愛編密件就編密件台灣還是法治國家嗎我們還有需要制定國家機密保護法嗎就不用啦我想我們討論的層級是不一樣的"},{"start":9629.564,"end":9654.196,"text":"剛剛你說的嘛黃委員注意一下時間 你現在問的比本委還要久不需要法律授權 行政機關自己就可以定委員這個扯遠了剛剛這就是你說的啊有些行政程序是我們可以做密件處理的從過去到現在我們都是按照標準我沒有自己獨立創作 沒有我沒有這個就是我跟你認知不一樣的地方嘛"},{"start":9655.892,"end":9677.421,"text":"委員你沒有擔任過行政職你不了解這個作業對所以呢當過行政職的人就沒有法律授權的依據自己要編密件就可以編密件不是沒有法律授權我們還是有一些行政職對嘛所以我就問你嘛不公開我們的密件就是不公開就叫做密件跟委員定義的密件邏輯是不一樣的好不好所以需不需要法律授權的依據不用嘛"},{"start":9678.001,"end":9689.463,"text":"不是 我們兩位偶然你討論的意見跟我講的意見是不同的定義邏輯委員長請之後再跟黃委員說明 超過太多時間了你給我一個時間 我親自私下去跟你說明 好不好 謝謝好 接下來請這個葉元之委員上台質詢葉元之 葉元之 葉元之委員不在接下來請馬文君委員上台質詢"},{"start":9714.146,"end":9717.628,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請委員長馬偉你好委員長好 委員長因為剛剛有聽到我們在詢答的過程那委員長有特別提到說在某一些國家他可能是單一國籍的部分那像剛剛面臨的那樣的困難有哪一些國家請僑友會再提供給本席 好不好好"},{"start":9744.062,"end":9751.77,"text":"另外我們先討論今天我們在報告裡面看到的就是我們有特別提到中國大陸在運用春節活動去展開一些文化統戰的這樣的一個作為"},{"start":9758.578,"end":9764.524,"text":"那他會送一些小物啊或者運用人情牌去拜會我們的僑社這個也影響到了我們海外僑民對我們的向心力那既然僑委會已經發現到對岸是利用捷慶對華僑實施這樣的文化滲透的統戰"},{"start":9776.235,"end":9779.917,"text":"那來籠絡我們的僑民的心那這個部分請問僑委會在傳統節慶比如說像今年我們在春節的時候我們在不同的區域有做了哪些活動辦了什麼樣的或做什麼來增進僑界跟僑社團體對台灣的鏈結可不可以舉幾個例子"},{"start":9799.45,"end":9804.956,"text":"跟委員報告通常在農曆年節的時候他們也都會有一些叫做新春的餐敘或者是新春團拜的活動那一般來講只要他有跟我們申請要辦這些活動我們多少都會給你所以我們沒有主動辦任何的活動或做什麼事"},{"start":9819.952,"end":9823.915,"text":"有一些是僑團我們都是因應僑團才來做這些動作那因為每一個僑團如果我們主動辦的時候不見得僑團大家會一起來參加所以我們都是尊重個別僑團在舉辦但是如果非農曆春節而是元旦這種我們就會統一辦升旗活動所以春節我們辦了什麼?春節我們沒有主動辦春節都是配合因為大家時間會不一致"},{"start":9847.051,"end":9848.833,"text":"委員長我剛剛已經提到就是我們自己僑委會其實也發現到了就是說他對岸的做法我們是提供他似乎是有達到那個效果"},{"start":9861.988,"end":9865.61,"text":"我們也知道他送東西然後可能去拜會然後發個紅包那可能我們是做不到嗎或者像這樣他們就有效那為什麼我們不做因為有很多華僑也反映說我們在辦這些活動的時候有時候那種儀式性"},{"start":9879.617,"end":9885.16,"text":"還有它的重複性太高就大家都一樣所以一點興趣都沒有所以也引不起大家參與的這樣的一個興趣所以如果說他們的做法是有效的而我們卻沒有其他的個別或者我們一個突破性的做法那只會讓我們的人一直流失所以這個部分我想僑委會可以主動去做一些事情"},{"start":9902.81,"end":9913.356,"text":"因為既然你都已經發現對岸的做法是有效的那我們怎麼可以讓我們的人一直流失或者一直被拉攏就這個部分我覺得沒有什麼被動或主動或是配合或者只是補助主要是傳統僑社剛剛講那個拉攏都是傳統僑社為主那部分的是說他們辦的春節活動想要邀我們台僑社團但基本上我們台僑社團都沒有去參加"},{"start":9929.705,"end":9935.612,"text":"那他們也都會回報給我們所以這是兩個不同的僑團性質我剛剛已經講很清楚過去例行性的我們那個無所謂可是當你已經發現委員我們沒有辦法有那麼多預算去跟他做某種的加碼我當然是用其他的方式來繼續的"},{"start":9948.327,"end":9951.751,"text":"我們以前您大概也是有選舉過我們當然在看資源或各方面的條件的時候我們不見得都是資源最充裕的一方可是要怎麼樣讓大家認同或者怎麼樣去拉攏這是我們要去做的今天不是錢多少的問題那裡永遠都輸他"},{"start":9969.727,"end":9974.47,"text":"所以不要拿這個理由來說我們這個不能做那個不能做我剛剛已經提到了如果因為他送那個小物看起來你也大概7萬份而已那你去拜會也不需要花什麼錢那如果這個有效為什麼我們不能做這跟錢有我們也有去拜會所以我們會送一個禮物過去那如果這樣我們還輸人家那你必須要檢討說為什麼他容易被拉攏或者他是什麼樣的因素"},{"start":9998.105,"end":10002.507,"text":"這個我們自己去檢討再去改善嘛 是 是那另外喬委會在接受媒體採訪的時候有提到中方是採取打著綠席反綠這個部分好像是我們委員長對媒體也說到中國過去對於這是近期的發展 對"},{"start":10015.452,"end":10018.454,"text":"中國過去對於親中偏藍的這些僑社僑團其實他們會刻意拉攏那現在好像是這個比較失去寵愛了可是我想要關心的是僑委會如何去區分他到底是親中可能比較明顯那個很容易就可以看得出來那你偏藍偏綠因為偏藍偏綠對於我們補助因為有我程度"},{"start":10043.172,"end":10045.475,"text":"對於我們球委會的補助是有差別的那你偏藍偏綠是怎麼去分補助沒有差別但是呢有我程度嘛應該這樣子在補助的時候我們有列一個有我的那種程度是有的"},{"start":10058.81,"end":10069.715,"text":"我們有一個公式在計算所以我們是怎麼區分的怎麼區分他是偏藍偏綠不是我們是以他舉辦活動的內容我現在不講補助委員長我不講補助我說我們因為有講到偏藍偏綠比方說我來講一個概念就是國民黨貴黨都還有很多海外的黨部"},{"start":10083.261,"end":10098.285,"text":"那這些黨部也都有成立一些社團所以這些就非常清楚它叫做偏藍嘛那有沒有什麼比較偏綠的偏綠的當然也有就比方說FAPA大家知道的公共人事務協會這叫台派嘛所以是由民進黨去組成的不是它不是不不不FAPA比民進黨更早他們是在美國登記的僑團跟民進黨也沒有關係那像同鄉會已經50年了比我們民進黨更早我們民進黨來講是幾歲"},{"start":10112.708,"end":10114.849,"text":"因為過去僑胞在對於我們尤其像抗日期間其實他不管捐錢捐住設立學校捐飛機捐很多很多的資源所以我現在要講的是如果你今天僑委會都已經先分了藍分了綠那你在內部已經做出這樣的一個差別的一個判定"},{"start":10142.415,"end":10149.502,"text":"那你認為其他的他們應該要怎麼做因為社團就社團比如說獅子會裡面會有藍有綠啊那你久了以後其實你還可以去拉他們然後你可以讓他們有一個共同的宗旨目標是什麼所以我現在要特別提醒的是你在內部已經做了藍綠的分別"},{"start":10166.357,"end":10169.339,"text":"我是做事實陳述我沒有做分別陳述是你說的那你既然是已經做這樣的陳述就是說你已經把它分別出來了那以前它既然是偏藍或偏綠有很多為什麼它要拉攏甚至你說對岸已經在拉攏比較輕綠的了"},{"start":10186.309,"end":10188.99,"text":"所以其實如果在內部我剛剛聽說講完我們現在擔心的部分如果你在內部先分了敵我或者先分了藍綠或者先做一個區隔有時候我們要讓他們團結會更困難尤其僑委會更不應該這樣做"},{"start":10206.178,"end":10214.401,"text":"他從過去因為過去的年代他是什麼樣的一個政治背景比如說那時候就是只有國民黨在執政所以那時候的成立或者更早的時候他們為台灣在付出的時候他們也沒有分哪一個政黨就是說他回到台灣的時候他還是希望我們的教育資源不足我們就提供教育資源各方面我們會提供那你應該如果僑委會的一個重要的一個存在的價值"},{"start":10234.99,"end":10239.032,"text":"他就是讓我們所有的可能跟我們有鏈結的這樣子的一個僑胞、僑民、僑社他都可以對我們認同這在國際上是很重要的所以就這個部分我們還是希望邱委會其實自己把分寸可以拿捏得更好"},{"start":10256.821,"end":10276.501,"text":"我簡單回應一下事實上這兩三年我在海外辦各種僑務座談的時候藍的也有綠的也有我所謂藍的也有綠的也有是代表說台灣是一個多元政黨民主社會所以我常常跟所有的僑民說你支持哪一個政黨都沒有關係我們只有一個共同的信念就是我們是"},{"start":10277.282,"end":10298.055,"text":"支持中華民國台灣這個概念所以同樣的這樣子我對僑團也是持同樣的態度我不會因為他的政治立場是什麼而去給他差別待遇但是我必須說中共是會區分的做法是這個我們觀察到的現象所以觀察到現象我們要自己去想我們策略上要怎麼因應而已"},{"start":10299.056,"end":10302.501,"text":"但是在立場上我並沒有說今天他是政黨立場不一樣我就差別待遇那第二個就是說我要跟委員報告他們都是在海外的僑團那麼這些僑團我們都是輔助他而已我們沒有主導他們的委員長您說的我知道"},{"start":10314.778,"end":10316.96,"text":"對我們台灣來說 我們要團結最多的力量我要講的是 當你要補助社團的時候你把補助的公式的內容再提供給民企"},{"start":10334.976,"end":10338.198,"text":"另外因為今天時間的關係我們沒有辦法問到因為天下雜誌有做了一個專章在討論我們的學生不管是教育部還是我們僑委會主辦的這樣子的部分它的標題其實讓人家看了非常難過"},{"start":10355.126,"end":10361.516,"text":"他說想做工就去台灣念書產學專班讓台灣淪為偽留學天堂這個基本上是個偽專天仲介剝削僑生的產業鏈"},{"start":10365.868,"end":10370.269,"text":"委員長你不用先否認他是讓裡面資料錯誤擺出也不用去因為其實你的計算方式也是錯的就像我們在說那個國防部好了他們在委員他們把我們沒有講的話寫出來這些事情是塞在我們的嘴巴裡面我一定會抗議的聽我講完而且我已經去寒跟他們講委員長聽我講完"},{"start":10389.918,"end":10392.461,"text":"因為這個雜誌已經出現了已經讓大家看到了如果要說明我們未來會有時間我現在要特別先提出來我們自己去理解的也有這樣的狀況你去了解看看我們對這些學生是不是夠好因為過去我們有很多的透過"},{"start":10408.036,"end":10412.497,"text":"教育部或者我們僑委會不管海青班也好或者過去的僑生也好我們訓練了非常多的優秀的人才而且在台灣創立了非常成功的企業因為那個就叫培養人才剛剛你們計算的公式你說七成然後天下雜誌說三成我們姑且不論他的那個分母分子的計算資料就像國防部我剛剛提到的如果你救你的木兵他達到百分之一百以上"},{"start":10437.822,"end":10443.987,"text":"可是他的就是他後來離開的更高所以我們的邊線比一直嚴重不足或者其他的人員不足是因為這樣你不能說他來註冊了可是他流失了你沒有去計算今天時間的關係這個問題是我們僑委會花了很多的錢編了更多的預算尤其這兩年我們希望他做到的是讓國際認同不要讓人家覺得我們是剝削"},{"start":10465.823,"end":10483.529,"text":"如果來了都是幫我們台灣的廠商解決他們的缺工問題或者幫學校快要倒了讓他有學生數這都是不對的我們希望有時間如果再安排我們會深入討論我認同委員的理念基本上我也是這樣的看法好謝謝好謝謝馬委員"},{"start":10489.177,"end":10507.747,"text":"好謝謝委員長那已登記質詢委員處不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日委員會口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者就請相關單位以書面提供那就看各委員的這一個約定那本日會議到此結束散會"}]}},{"id":"159298","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159298","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb1389dd3af1335bad100c4df18311f68d585e58b3f30dad4240d0ad8028109d995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:15:18 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出席委員人數是人 已組法定人數 請主席宣布開會好 現在開會 請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄"},{"start":1767.631,"end":1790.874,"text":"立法院第11屆第三會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第二次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年3月13日星期四9時至14時17分地點群賢樓801會議室出席委員陳委員昭姿等15人列席委員張委員齊凱等16人列席官員衛生福利部部長邱太元等相關人員主席蘇兆吉委員清泉"},{"start":1791.614,"end":1813.848,"text":"報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請衛生福利部部長就有關全國集中症醫療量能進行專題報告並備質詢本次會議由衛生福利部部長報告後委員陳昭芝等20人提出質詢均經衛生福利部部長及各相關主管等即席答覆委員王一川所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":1814.728,"end":1827.235,"text":"決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二周內已書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定通過臨時提案一項 宣讀完畢好 請問委員會上次議事錄有無錯誤或疑惑之處請問委員上次議事錄有無錯誤或疑惑之處"},{"start":1844.602,"end":1871.61,"text":"沒有謝謝那我們意思就確定好本會議成為邀請環境部部長衛生福利部教育部經濟部臺灣電力公司臺灣中油公司就氣箱變異自國內空瓶惡化經濟預報與跨部會應變作為進行專題報告那便被質詢現在來在呃現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員我們第一位到的是王靖迅王委員"},{"start":1875.62,"end":1895.207,"text":"我們第二位是林月琦 林委員第三位是陳昭之 陳委員好 謝謝介紹今天列席的官員還有第四位是陳穎 陳委員好 接下來介紹我們今天列席的官員環境部"},{"start":1895.806,"end":1902.57,"text":"部長彭啟明謝謝監測資訊師師長黃偉明對不起大氣環境師師長黃偉明監測資訊師師長張順清環境保護師師長許淑質謝謝還有水質保護師師長王玉斌謝謝氣候變遷署副署長張根木"},{"start":1928.596,"end":1954.131,"text":"資源循環署副署長林建山環境管理署副署長劉瑞祥仲規司副市長溫修慧化學物質管理署副署長陳淑玲國家環境研究院檢任研究員陳明妮衛福部醫事師檢任計政卓麗萍"},{"start":1958.164,"end":1969.709,"text":"謝謝國建署科長歐良龍謝謝教育部資訊及科技教育師專門委員廖雙慶好 謝謝經濟部國營事業管理師副市長劉啟孝謝謝廠方署組長吳振華謝謝還有人員署代理組長夏鼓權謝謝"},{"start":1988.035,"end":2007.627,"text":"好 水利署組長蘇秉源謝謝台灣電力股份有限公司副總經理郭天和好 謝謝台灣總股份有限公司處長謝茂傑好 謝謝那我們接下來來請環境部彭部長來做報告請"},{"start":2015.816,"end":2036.456,"text":"主席各位委員大家好那由環境部來報告氣象變異導致空品惡化我們如何精進預報與跨部位的應變作為那這個簡報大綱如上所示喔那第一個呢是我們國家的這個空氣品質呢其實上在這麼多年努力之下八年來呈現顯著的改善的趨勢例如說PM2.5現在去年的平均是12.8"},{"start":2037.737,"end":2054.922,"text":"當然各位可以看到那個數字這幾年似乎是有一點沒有像過去幾年降得這麼的多因為其實未來要改善其實也蠻艱鉅的那另外一個是臭氧濃度也顯著的一個降低因為臭氧其實會導致敏感族群例如說流眼淚這種刺激是更大的"},{"start":2055.282,"end":2067.668,"text":"那另外一個呢就今年一到二月我們的空氣品質呢是比前兩年稍微略微的一個改善所以這是過去一到二月的一個比例那我們如何應變這個機制呢我們中央主管機關就是環境部我們會根據預報跟監測的一個結果來啟動這個條件"},{"start":2071.73,"end":2090.815,"text":"如果到這個條件的話第一個是中央單位採應變的作為我們會協調各種的檢排地方也會採取應變的一個措施那另外一個最重要的就是稽查的應變所以我們到達啟變的標準的時候就會讓跟中央跟地方一起來合作推動這些事情那當然這個訊息全部是公開讓大家可以知道"},{"start":2091.235,"end":2107.81,"text":"那現在呢我們這個應變中心的成立時機呢第一個地方要先要一起成立喔大概地方呢如果一個縣市是一半的車站達到中級的預警就AQI大於150的話就必須要成立或是說隔天連續兩天會達這個AQI150或是任一個車站到達超過200那就要到達這個應變的地方那中央呢分為兩級"},{"start":2115.376,"end":2138.224,"text":"除了離島之外只要有九個縣市以上有到達這個標準成立的話那我們就跟著成立二級還有一種是一級最嚴重就是九個以上縣市而且二化而且未來48小時沒有改善的一個機箱的話也同步會成立那目前呢這個二級的指揮官是由我們大氣司的司長來擔任那主要是以我們大氣司為一個主核心"},{"start":2138.604,"end":2157.215,"text":"那另外一個呢是一級的應變就是由我來擔任指揮官那參與的就是各個部會一起共同來參與那因為我們在三月初的時候也有一個事件發生其實二月底的時候那時候二月二十八的時候其實也啟動了大概三四年也啟動了這個二級的指揮中心也有運作過"},{"start":2158.015,"end":2173.298,"text":"那我們如何應變精進作為呢第一個是說我們現在呢我們提供預警的這個通知條件AQI的防護呢已經從過去用一個AQI等級可能是經過一個小時平均現在呢用小時平均值到達紅色就會主動的推波"},{"start":2173.678,"end":2192.529,"text":"所以跟過去相比提早了大概兩到四個小時來對外說而且我們會透過各種的平台針對這種敏感弱勢的一個族群大概有一萬個會提供大概就15分鐘內就可以得到相關的一個訊息所以這個是環保局或是教育部或是衛福部都會通知那另外一個是應變"},{"start":2193.55,"end":2213.665,"text":"那應變就包含了說我們要不一樣的內容例如說不一樣的污染就不一樣的應變例如說是立磚污染物就要針對公共工程或是說我們七大的這個商港商港很多漁船也會冒出各種立磚污染物或是露天燃燒的熱區這是三個就是立磚污染物就是PM的影響那另外一個就是臭氧"},{"start":2214.105,"end":2240.561,"text":"臭氧呢就是有一些製程高OFT的製程那減少用VOC那這個VOC大概有兩千家另外一個呢是連鎖大型的餐飲業大概有一千家還有加油站那這個呢也就是讓他們減少這個能夠降低這個負債降低可以來做這個事情那當然啦區域的聯防也很重要因為有時候風只要有大氣風向一增強或是改變有好也有不好"},{"start":2241.161,"end":2266.334,"text":"例如說東北濟崩來的時候他就要從竹苗相關的就要一起做聯防高壓出海的就不一定所以我們把那個幾個區域一起聯防從上游開始去做一些改善效果反而是很好這個是我們過去會依照空品區或是上下游的關係一起來共同來做應變那另外一個就是我們國人常常發現的緊急的事件這個緊急的事件例如說我們家附近可能要是有一個工廠"},{"start":2266.914,"end":2286.555,"text":"或是有一個住家發生了嚴重的大火那個煙都很大那個跟一般的空氣污染物不大一樣但是我們環境部也跟各縣市環保局有積極合作也就是說如果有一些即時的大火的話也會讓大家可以知道這個預警的一個功能那另外一個最重要的就是敏感族群的加強特別是校園的這個鄰近的空屋"},{"start":2286.915,"end":2303.572,"text":"所以這個裡面我們可以從強化溯源管控風險然後第二個是加嚴排放加重罰則來處理那另外一個是針對多元的防護措施保護敏感的一個族群那這個部分我們過去有空氣旗那另外一個是空品維護我們會鼓勵學校現在全臺灣有83個空品維護區我們希望建議各縣市一起來配合"},{"start":2308.357,"end":2327.751,"text":"學校很多學校可以多納入空瓶維護區因為這個就可以減少中污染的這個車輛在附近通過另外一個的是希望再推動持續推動的車輛代數與起火的一個方式其實最重要的是第4個就是我們鼓勵社區跟學校參與我們最近的其實也主動處理了屏東獅子國中其實因為他"},{"start":2328.391,"end":2356.682,"text":"附近有一個瀝青廠那這個瀝青廠呢我們發現它如果製程的改善就可以顯著的改變所以但是這個一定要有學校還有家長會共同一些意識報告主席再給我三分鐘可以嗎好那這個部分呢如果我們把這個建立起來我們希望今年我們可以多一點示範案例然後到時候全國一起推廣就會比較快這個是針對我們敏感族群可以來加強那我們近期呢空品事件呢大概就是以東北風為主還有一個就是"},{"start":2357.782,"end":2372.727,"text":"吹東風那為什麼冬天的時候空品會不涼呢最主要就是混合層高度比較低因為溫度比較低所以混合層就是說我們任何的污染排放他到大氣裡面如果夏天的時候那個混合層高度很高可以混合的空間就會比較多所以我們夏天的時候"},{"start":2373.167,"end":2399.94,"text":"空品不會那麼的糟糕可是如果冬天的時候一樣的排放的話它大概就會少了一半所以相對之下空品不良的機會就會擴散條件就會比較糟這個就是冬天主要的影響那目前我們都是提早一週會提供各種的預警在環境部的各種的平台都會讓大家可以看得到那當然啦今年的年月底2月25到28的確發生了一個嚴重空污的事件其實這個裡面呢屬於就是所謂的這種被封測"},{"start":2400.6,"end":2421.702,"text":"污染物的這個累積所造成的我們也發現它的混合層高度只有300到400公尺通常夏天可以到1公里左右所以這個差別是很大就造成我們本地的污染無法排放到是空污的事件那當然3月10號到12號也有一個事件發生同樣的也是混合層高度比較低當然這個其實氣象的原因是扮演一個很重要的一個角色"},{"start":2422.102,"end":2438.436,"text":"那我們其實在226到3月12號其實也成立了防制指揮中心我們二級指揮中心的一個開設227的時候228的時候也持續的一個開設那也通知了非常的多所以如這個卡所示那當然未來要走其實我們也發現了一些"},{"start":2439.276,"end":2460.12,"text":"挑戰這個是我自己提過的8個挑戰例如說我們希望民間的期待希望可以更嚴格例如說我們平均2.5什麼時候可以到10以下這個也是我努力的目標希望有更多的生活協力但是我們發現大眾對於空污的認知可能其實有一點不大一樣例如說很多人覺得煙囪就是排放很多但是事實上現在汽機車也很多等等"},{"start":2460.64,"end":2479.186,"text":"那另外一個呢是治理的工具我們現在其實也面臨到一些挑戰希望未來可以更好我們希望未來可以跨領域把新的世代來做空品的能夠把它提升起來這個就是我們努力的目標那另外一個呢我們因為去年今年年初的時候我們發布了調整空氣品質指標的各污染的門檻值"},{"start":2480.146,"end":2505.735,"text":"所以等於是我們AQI是把它加嚴了所以加嚴的情況呢我們良好的比例會減少13%普通的比例會增加5%敏感族群的比例會增加8%所以這個基本上呢我們空瓶是變好是加嚴了所以有時候大家會覺得AQI的警告的頻率會多一點點這個也請大家可以了解那我們未來呢希望採取因為未來要減量其實最好的方式就是淨零我們原來在這個我們國家的2030年的減碳目標是28加減"},{"start":2508.936,"end":2536.236,"text":"那這個如果我們能夠達到這樣的一個目標努力的話我們有算過大概PM2.5有機會在2030年達到10當然這是一個共利的一個改善我們希望可以努力來做這個事情那另外一個很重要的事情我們環境部也統計了我國空污的來源的現況希望可以更精準的管制目前來看的話PM2.5為例大概境內大概在53%現在的情況是交通源已經大於工業源了"},{"start":2536.796,"end":2557.536,"text":"當然工業園要持續的減但是交通園呢其實過去是我們國內比較少推動的我們希望未來的這個部分呢能夠從各種的方式精準的治理來改善讓大家可以更清楚了解可以更知道那我們現在呢也在推動空瓶的政策新的白皮書我們希望透過各種的方式首先讓大家來許願然後包含了一起"},{"start":2558.257,"end":2575.459,"text":"公民咖啡館然後最後呢我們現在正在進行白皮書的一個編撰希望呢在三月底到四月中上旬的時候可以把這個我們的空品政策白皮書能夠擬定出來變成我們未來五年下一期努力的一個方向那最後呢我跟各位報告因為我們過去呢"},{"start":2576.019,"end":2589.396,"text":"環境部有一個監製師他現在過去是監測跟預報是放在監製師大氣師是負責應變那我們現在今年度我們已經報院正在等待院的最後的核定我們希望把這個移到大氣師所以未來我們就監測與預報跟應變三位一體"},{"start":2593.041,"end":2609.126,"text":"全方位一條龍來推動希望效率可以更加的提升我們也會提供更多的一個資源會成立空品監測跟預報中心加強人力來推動做這個事情所以我們希望讓空品的改善推動監測可以更好這個就是我們目標以上是我報告 謝謝"},{"start":2614.38,"end":2633.548,"text":"好 謝謝部長很詳細的報告那我們現在來開始懸答做一下宣告第一本會委員諮詢時間為6加2分鐘列席委員為4加1分鐘11點半截止發言登記委員如果書面諮詢請於散會前提出預期不受理"},{"start":2639.871,"end":2663.647,"text":"4點半截止發言登記那委員如果順便諮詢請余三位前提出預期不受理我們暫定4點半休息10分鐘那有關於本次會議各項書面資料列入紀錄刊登公報好那原則上我們在11點30的時候來處理臨時提案10點半截止收案現在請登記第二位委員是陳昭志成委來做發言"},{"start":2669.508,"end":2671.431,"text":"謝謝主席 有請彭部長有請部長"},{"start":2675.178,"end":2701.836,"text":"陳委員早部長早部長在貴部這個陳生這個環境署的時候在土屋基金管理會有編寫一份這個污染土地再利用制度說明手冊您看過這本手冊嗎我知道這個法令他第八頁非常清楚的寫著污染的土地再利用有兩種方式一個就是說你先去整治一直到解除劣管再使用另外一個方式就是說整治跟這個"},{"start":2704.118,"end":2732.6,"text":"再利用它是並行的就是並行的但原則上根據土屋法就是說前面的例子就先做完整治再來利用但是極有很少的例子是並行來做那土屋法第51條第二項受污染的這個整治場址在進行開發利用之前必須提出同時提出整治計畫那目的當然是保障這個環境安全跟民眾健康所以部長您熟悉這樣子的陳述嗎"},{"start":2736.061,"end":2754.89,"text":"那我接著要請部長看一下土屋法第17條第二項的規定被公告污染土地受污染整治場址的土地原則上禁止的土地利用行為包含 下面一條我把它框起來了環境影響評估法所規定的開發行為"},{"start":2757.99,"end":2764.265,"text":"除非除非他經過中央主管機關的認同那這條法當初定的目的是什麼部長"},{"start":2765.442,"end":2793.379,"text":"其實報告委員以這個案例如果說你關心的協和電廠它其實106年曾經這種被列為污染的場址那其實經過一年大概是一年多的時間107到108也整治過所以它就我們現在認定它並不是所謂的土壤污染的你講的時間點我有更後面的時間點的資料給你這個立法的目的就很清楚嘛"},{"start":2794.5,"end":2798.185,"text":"這個目前基本上是不是要在這個利用行為一定要這個要"},{"start":2800.783,"end":2811.167,"text":"環境評估法規定的開發行為這個部分它是要符合否則會被限制除非主管機關同意那我們再看下一張 部長上個月底2月26號環評會不顧台電協和電廠世界開發案的土壤受嚴重污染的事實質疑在當天要通過環評你們自己打點這第17條第二項"},{"start":2824.873,"end":2849.762,"text":"我當然知道你們會說協和電廠這個土地不是被公告為不是被公告為已經處理過了土壤污染這個整治場址但這就是台電規避的原因因為一旦被公告為這個土地這個污染整治場址依法就不能再進行在這之前不能進行這個再咖啡利用所以台電明知道有污染"},{"start":2850.422,"end":2855.445,"text":"就是刻意對環境部環評會隱瞞資訊好根據我手上這幾份調查報告你先看投影片2019比你講的時間還晚2021、2022同樣的監測點多次重複出現土壤重金屬嚴重超標那"},{"start":2870.956,"end":2883.869,"text":"其中有一份我在2月25號部長那天總質詢你說你沒看到我新聞是2月25號後面有給 正文是給你們然後副本是給台電跟基隆市市政府我給這個報告給你們這個報告裡面"},{"start":2888.223,"end":2892.205,"text":"就是剛剛我提到的這些檢查2019、2012、2012都有發現很多有污染情況但是環平火車就是硬要開下去硬開我必須說"},{"start":2902.168,"end":2909.774,"text":"非常離譜的台電委託的單位太新工程在內部會議在2024年11月6號剛剛我提到的這個資訊是2019、2021、2022有一些污染的內部的證據他們所謂的自主性調查但是到去年11月6號"},{"start":2924.264,"end":2932.41,"text":"台電跟泰晶他所委託的公司泰晶工程做內部的會議的時候建議這太離譜了你看這個圖 下一張那個圖等一下我交給你"},{"start":2937.134,"end":2955.054,"text":"這個是封面 內部會議的封面你看看它裡面的建議跟討論怎麼寫因為這個洪匡因為已經知道污染位置因為他們提前做了這個自主性調查他已經知道哪些點是污染的他說已經知道污染位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測"},{"start":2960.033,"end":2988.86,"text":"實在是太離譜了好我請問你2025年我們再來做一次如何你真的要請考驗嗎台電這麼多年來引領土地這個污染的事實讓整個環評機制受到質疑導致主管機關環評會他們也看不到這個資料那我在環評會之前把資料寄給你們當天開會的時候環境部也說收到啊收到我們資料哦但是環評會跟火車失速的火車一樣一直往前撞"},{"start":2991.966,"end":3007.777,"text":"開綠燈讓他規避規避台建被列為這塊土地被列為土壤污染的整治場場址的這種不良企圖請問部長我們在物理市很多人問環境部是經濟部的小弟嗎不是只有委員你會叫我是小弟"},{"start":3010.008,"end":3029.675,"text":"那我剛剛講的這個資料呢第一個是環評基本上如果它是土壤這個整治區它要完成之後才能進行開發環評是環評的一個程序那至於說委員提到這個東西我歡迎委員我們就來兼具來處理這個事情你跟我講的重點讓我繼續你跟我講的重點你一直在強調跟那些市長講的話一樣"},{"start":3031.295,"end":3059.126,"text":"就是什麼整治跟這個環評是平行式是兩件事情這個你們利用那個法律的模糊來解釋為什麼不是先整治再環評到最後來看給大家看公平啊你們竟然組決議裡面通過原則就是通過17比0我形容那個是習近平跟金正恩開的會才會有17比0然後附帶學藝寫的一些重要的事情你們要去持續要去追隨就是遵守那個整治法"},{"start":3060.186,"end":3079.988,"text":"所以基本上來我們來看看總之其實我給這個等一下我把這份給你然後你要看那個字規避這些地點已經遭到污染了所以我們這種自檢查是我們要避開這一點公然的要這樣子寫我要這份資料要得多辛苦我們早就有了其實接避者早就有了台電"},{"start":3080.609,"end":3093.472,"text":"怎麼隱瞞放多久才肯給我們報告委員那個接避者是不是送給我我們就成立接避者調查委員會然後來處理這個事情左院長已經同意了所以也非做不可那委員是不是也請台電來報告可以等一下我就交給你所以好我們來看這是當年這個台電的環評書內容明顯的造假說謊台電跟受託的這個泰興公司這個他前面有講說移動點嘛因為你們知道這些點是污染的所以你就避開了那個點"},{"start":3109.315,"end":3120.6,"text":"那最重要的是他隱瞞了真相他告訴你不要去碰那些點第二個泰興公司他不但是台電的自行檢測單位他竟然也是台電委託交出環評書的這個單位這樣有沒有利益衝突啊那這就是為什麼環評會議當天你們只交到一個點一個採樣點說不出事這個怎麼總是有探親話物沒有 真猜不到"},{"start":3135.846,"end":3138.569,"text":"事實上自主調查是採了59個點位像話嗎?事先跑了59個點位然後知道哪邊有汙染然後再找一個乾淨的是嗎?是這樣嗎?結果交出一個點位太離譜了明顯違反環評法第11條提出的文書明知為不實事項而記載這情勢所以環境部你要不要追究台電的造假問題還是要當共犯?還是要當共犯?"},{"start":3162.093,"end":3167.836,"text":"委員你送來的東西我們就成立一個吹哨者調查調查這段過程非錯不可那這個是不是請台電來回應沒有他能回應嗎我剛剛講了有一句他是不實的嗎我現在問題是那天通過環評會議部長我要先跟你說你的環評會議你的環評會議17比0通過"},{"start":3181.677,"end":3199.269,"text":"17比0是一個一個問有共識委員你不能用那樣的說法我們是民主國家你們大概很少見識到一個17比0沒有委員你不能這樣說那天的很多的媒體都在現場17比0是什麼我沒有造假17比0是問說委員要不要共識決還是什麼決一個一個問過大家委員都沒有任何的意見這個是一個共識決"},{"start":3200.009,"end":3221.072,"text":"如果是事實下面下面寫附帶決議說以後再補充說明補充說明也希望後續應該積極依照土屋法去辦理天啊有這個我就是通過了然後附帶決議說你們再去補充這些資料說明有這樣的水準的這個會議嗎我們發生什麼事情部長"},{"start":3222.626,"end":3239.713,"text":"但是上週四我不在場那天環評會我們三個立委在場上週四環團去環境部抗議在提出這些施政的時候媒體是報導我是想請教你有這回事嗎環境部有回應說已經要求基隆市進場查證如果查證處時完成整治後才能進行世界開發這是事實嗎"},{"start":3242.634,"end":3255.72,"text":"這個其實本來就是規定報告委員其實有一些要開發一定要整治環境才能再開發這個是過去已經有一個事實在這邊過去很多的案例都是這個樣子並不是說這個案子特別不一樣"},{"start":3257.04,"end":3274.295,"text":"土地搜燃那你要在基隆市市長當天也在場2月26號你要他再做一次檢查那你還名我們都告訴你這麼多資料開會前給你而且還有很多程序問題等一下我再繼續告訴你我們要求給了這個資料以後竟然還名會繼續開繼續開完全不停派你們那個市長徐市長對這個支持方那麼友善對反方一直罵"},{"start":3284.384,"end":3292.785,"text":"沒有委員 那天你們已經炸我們提出程序問題 因為我事前給你資料可是已經被大戰的主席台了當然那個聲音很吵雜他說我們立委沒有資格提程序問題報告委員那個環評會是以委員為主環評委員為主裡面有三分之二都是學者專家我跟你講程序問題在什麼地方就是第一個本來七天前開會要公告所有資料他讀了核心資料第六章第六章核心是缺的 消失的好把那一章給他們看"},{"start":3315.523,"end":3325.734,"text":"毒藥啊 消失的毒藥 那是核心資料啊就是我們最重視的那一點那一點資料沒有公開啊那你開什麼懷評大會 搶戲交易你是破搶戲啊好 沒關係 那天我今天沒有辦法 這個徐司長當天也是對這個反方非常的不客氣對這個支持方 講話很不客氣"},{"start":3341.32,"end":3356.61,"text":"因為那天卓部長已經指示要進行行政調查他答應我 你在旁邊對不對歡迎委員把這個送過來我就來調查來處理這個資料你們沒有嗎我把資料寄給你們因為那個是吹哨者"},{"start":3357.321,"end":3380.292,"text":"NO 這部分是台電的台電有這個資料包委員是不是請台電回覆一下反正行政調查第一個我要做行政調查否則你們就是共犯我們去調查真相然後第二個我要知道進度多久可以完成第三個在這行政調查之前二月二十六環民會是不是要先撤銷他的結論通過的結論關心所有人民的這個土地健康跟國民的安全"},{"start":3387.931,"end":3408.699,"text":"請他回答一下因為周院長在總質詢有說可以進行行政調查謝謝主席委員好台電公司在這邊做兩點聲明簡單的先回覆第一件事情土屋法跟環評法這兩個的法源是互不干涉的"},{"start":3410.409,"end":3425.479,"text":"剛剛部長有特別提示土定整理完成之後我強調的是我已經找出很多資料你們在規避土屋因為你們說你們沒有被公告是污染的場址不是 土屋法委員我們先這樣講你先把土屋法的法源跟環評法的法源兩個似乎不干擾沒有先後秩序你們先不要再處理你自己的程序你硬先通過然後我們再去調查沒有 委員你這樣講就"},{"start":3440.509,"end":3458.638,"text":"比較不合乎邏輯了麻煩你回座我沒辦法跟他溝通就是說我部長因為卓院長當時有說就行政調查重啟嘛基隆市政府也叫他再調查一下2025年看通不通得過嘛我已經告訴你2019、2021、2022年裡面還有多錄聯本欸很毒欸 七倍欸"},{"start":3460.523,"end":3473.021,"text":"好 那我就請任調查 好嗎好 實際上還是可以再跟委員說明清楚好不好給你說明你也是沒辦法來接下來請林蔚琴委員來做詢問"},{"start":3484.599,"end":3513.097,"text":"好 麻煩我們的部長還有我們的監測資訊師的師長請滕部長還有教育部資訊及科技教育師的專門委員和我們的國民健康署科長好 委員早監測師的師長還有教育科技還有國健好 謝謝"},{"start":3515.812,"end":3532.61,"text":"部長早我覺得我肯定環境部在空屋防治上的努力可是在報告中部長你也提到當供給品質惡化時主管機關應該要採取更應變的防治跟"},{"start":3533.123,"end":3562.545,"text":"健康防護措施來依據我們的氣象固定的污染源跟移動污染源等特性公告並執行防治措施那包括工廠汽車輛的排放跟營建工地的管理跟提醒敏感族群的防護那也強調要加強保護我們的敏感族群針對不同污染物能夠採取不同的應變措施像工廠的排放管控"},{"start":3562.967,"end":3574.299,"text":"跟加油在我們的油氣的回收可是我也想問部長你所謂的敏感族群是不是有區分大人跟小孩所以我想針對這一點"},{"start":3575.942,"end":3604.397,"text":"來跟部長做討論部長我一直都認為我覺得一個問題為什麼學校跟固定的產生空屋工廠的距離至今是沒有明確的規範那根據報導者調查全台有141所國小31所國中距離500公尺都有違規的工廠其中28間學校周遭甚至有2間以上的違規工廠"},{"start":3605.638,"end":3610.705,"text":"那校園跟這樣子的污染源的距離規範我們看到的是什麼"},{"start":3611.149,"end":3635.687,"text":"去年我針對學校周邊的潛在危險設施提出規範要求加油站設置距離應納入幼兒園保護範圍可是去年11月教育部回函支持表示會跟經濟部研議修正法規可是至今也是沒有下文那兒少全法第47條也規定只要有害兒童身心健康的營業場所都"},{"start":3636.487,"end":3657.64,"text":"必須距離學校有200公尺以上2020年環境部也預告修正我們的移動污染源違反空氣污染防治法裁罰準則的時候如果柴油車跟機車排放的污染物影響學校罰款加重1.5倍所以部長工廠"},{"start":3658.427,"end":3678.719,"text":"排放的污染不會遇到學校就轉彎喔我們固定場所已經事實上都還有200公尺那可是他會他所以這樣污染源他會隨著空氣風向轉向學校我們對於交通跟營業場所都有一些距離的管制可是卻對這些污染的工廠沒有辦法管這樣對嗎"},{"start":3681.052,"end":3706.73,"text":"這個是我們希望也可以改善的因為委員說的都是現在事實因為報導者這邊我有特別看他特別舉出了一些學校那當然啦有些的這個違規的工廠他是一直過去我們對這個認知沒有那麼的多那我們現在我會去面對這個問題那這個面對這個問題呢有幾種一個是如果新設的話一定要盡量有一些更好的一個規範那至於舊有既有的話我們就要加強監測"},{"start":3707.671,"end":3716.441,"text":"所以想問部長現行的法規規範空氣污染的防治法管住就已經是不是有不足的地方你什麼時候要跟教育部討論"},{"start":3718.509,"end":3739.905,"text":"這個委員我們會來處理來進行好不好因為我把所有的相關的法規找出來也就看起來我們的空屋治理的法規非常的多可是沒有人負責而且政策很零碎執行也很破碎所以兒童的健康事實上是被忽略的各部門各管各的那涉及到兒童"},{"start":3740.886,"end":3761.76,"text":"跟空污的法規關係大概有12項其中前面環境部的前4項跟教育部的前3項總共7項事實上是有一些關聯性的可是環境部只針對我們的空氣品質惡化時規範學校應變措施簡單來講就是說發生事情的時候再來管理"},{"start":3762.793,"end":3781.181,"text":"那教育部呢在選校的時候的確會考量空屋可是沒有明確的標準這真的讓我們覺得很可笑因為孩子健康就掌握在尤其事實上選校子之後呢工廠怎麼設好像都沒有特別去規範所以僅依環保署的法規去調整體育課"},{"start":3782.748,"end":3797.822,"text":"就叫孩子體育課不要出來就好了那衛福部的兒童機構的那個環境規劃更偏向於環境清潔跟事故預防未設標準所以我想問國監署你2023年我們的兒圈公約的15號意見書就已經出來了針對健康權"},{"start":3803.687,"end":3825.9,"text":"到2023年2013年出來15號一間2023年到26號一間書在提到氣候權的時候都也提到了所謂這樣的空汙對他的所以我不知道我們的國健署在主管健康你對衛福部在訂兒少權法甚至修正的時候都沒有提嗎好 國健署委員我是不是請國健署來回答謝謝委員這部分我們後續可以再來做"},{"start":3833.493,"end":3859.086,"text":"因為兒權公約我們從2014年國內法化之後都到現在為什麼國健署在監管我們兒童健康的反而事實上是沒有回應好 國健署請回教育部要不要回應一下我還有教育部要回的所以以兒少權法為例我們的第七條就明確規定中央政府主管機關包括教育跟勞工跟經濟14個機關"},{"start":3861.874,"end":3871.632,"text":"可是環境部沒有列入那這也代表環境部對兒童的權益事實上是被忽略的所以想問部長你認為在兒少權益環境部的責任是什麼"},{"start":3874.615,"end":3895.902,"text":"呃我我贊同委員這個對於一些例如敏感族群兒少的教育場所呃特別常出沒的那我們是現在有針對一些例如說幼教的場所有在進行但是委員你提到的這個的確是對可是我就覺得很納悶的哈為什麼因為室內空氣品質管理法裡邊呃他第六條有針對於好各個"},{"start":3897.507,"end":3918.627,"text":"場域裡邊要逐步的去公布說哪些場域要被歸管那環境部先後公告了前面11項應該講第二項到11項可獨獨第一項目前針對於我們的所謂教學場所竟然只公告了大學醫院政府辦公室大眾運輸跟娛樂場所"},{"start":3920.669,"end":3936.484,"text":"那我們最重要最重要是越幼小的孩子更需要被保護反而事實上是獨立高級中等以下學校跟兒少教育跟活動場域這讓我覺得蠻特別2018年我們本黨的立委許智傑委員也有提"},{"start":3937.245,"end":3956.535,"text":"出來跟教育部要求可是當時事實上到現在都還沒有去做這樣的一個考量可是老人的福祉機構都早一批被公布了為什麼我們的兒少機構那我覺得我們的教育部跟環境部有互踢皮球嗎所以何時納管所以環境部跟教育部給我一個時間"},{"start":3958.613,"end":3963.617,"text":"委員這個目前是幼兒園或托嬰中心是有啦委員說的高中跟國小這個我們會再來討論對可不可以給個時間教育部要不要"},{"start":3969.212,"end":3996.133,"text":"跟委員報告一下 因為之前在幼教階段的部分 因為幼教的場所啦 因為蠻多 大概六千多所學校 那每一所學校他如果要符合那個環境部的那空瓶的規標我講的是給我一個時間好不好我們盡快啦 就是跟環境部來一起推動因為那部分的標準是真的還蠻 蠻嚴格的 那需要需要一段的時間來推動好 那環境部呢"},{"start":4000.158,"end":4026.458,"text":"這個我們會來研議因為委員你說的就是說高中國中國小其實這個部分的確是缺的我們是針對幼兒園那些托嬰中心大學都管了可是反而事實上是高中子以下的都沒在管可是世界衛生組織跟我們的聯合國兒童基金會都特別提醒說兒少是環境跟空氣污染影響最嚴重的族群那"},{"start":4027.076,"end":4052.094,"text":"目前很多時候工廠設在學校旁邊我們到底對學生的健康保護到底在哪裡尤其他也提出來說今天孩子因為呼吸速度比較快活動量高所以他的呼吸系統的發育還沒有成熟的時候他對於空氣污染對他的影響比成人還更嚴重反而你去保護我們已經滿18歲以上18歲以下的完全不去做歸管"},{"start":4053.315,"end":4067.354,"text":"所以我想問部長說現行的我們的檢測標準真的能夠保護健康嗎那我想也要問你們說那你們認定到底這樣的標準事實上應該要比大人更嚴格呢還是跟大人一樣"},{"start":4068.701,"end":4084.51,"text":"從學理上應該是要更嚴格啦例如說大人的標準他小朋友應該更嚴格一點那他是更要被保護的族群你們至今第一個沒有沒有去歸管另外一個事實上是也沒有一些標準在那沒有標準的結果就是做什麼呢就是叫孩子呢"},{"start":4084.912,"end":4103.376,"text":"反正你關窗嘛 忍耐嘛 戴口罩那難道就成為唯一的選擇嗎因為現在檢測方式根本沒有辦法去真實反映學校周遭的周邊的污染現況所以以試問先站在場上的各位能接受每天上班的時候聞到瀝青或工廠"},{"start":4103.897,"end":4131.154,"text":"排放的廢棄的臭味嗎可是現在就是都是現實我們學童遇到的一些狀況很多學生呢學校的師生因為吸入異味出現我們的頭暈耳心甚至身體不適的狀況可是為什麼不知道你們檢測空氣品質卻顯示空氣品質正常這個有沒有檢舉的時間跟稽查的時間根本兜不上甚至有沒有人通風報信"},{"start":4133.385,"end":4142.92,"text":"我們怎麼會是品質這樣 如果孩子都已經聞到所以部長請說明一下目前學校周邊發生異味的時候 聞到不舒服"},{"start":4144.076,"end":4166.449,"text":"檢測卻又正常這種跟事實脫節的狀況原因你覺得是什麼第一個是檢測占不夠因為學校他其實都是屬於這種微氣候所造成的影響第一個是要可能要增加一些檢測的設備所以我們目前這個會加強那委員提到的針對這個弱勢的這個族群我們會第一個是到底弱勢的族群他的這個AQI的標準要設到多少"},{"start":4167.029,"end":4186.966,"text":"這個我們現在會來研議做這個事情那委員關心的部分呢再容許再給我們一點時間我們跟教育部一起來討論對那就要問教育部除了叫孩子忍耐關窗戴口罩那到底為什麼孩子要忍我們自己大人都聞不下去了所以你有沒有其他的應對的方式"},{"start":4188.266,"end":4207.162,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是我們剛委員有列出我們相關的一些針對空瓶的一些因應規範其實我們有針對弱勢族群就是呃呃呃而且比較身體比較脆弱敏感的族群有做一些相關的一些應變還有演練而這份我們也是我們我們尊重我們我們尊重CRC的一個一個規範啊來做相關的一些關懷和呃緊急的應變處理好"},{"start":4211.425,"end":4239.945,"text":"我請環境部在三個月內召開跨部會的會議針對學校跟兒童出沒的一個區域空屋標準應該召開專家學者會議而且要以孩子的標準不是用大人的標準能不能辦到好可以委員謝謝委員的建議再給我一點時間稍微我照樣站起來那最後我還是要問教育部因為空屋不是環境問題更是影響到學生受教權"},{"start":4241.533,"end":4262.277,"text":"那平不平等的狀況那我的選區 我應該講說我的認養區域是觀音區那他的樹林國小報道率僅剩下三成全校僅剩下112人其中三分之一是單親跟低收入戶的學生內這些弱勢家庭 你覺得他遇到空污的時候他們有選擇權嗎教育部"},{"start":4266.298,"end":4289.978,"text":"這個部分不理會來重申我原提的這幾個學校我們也會你剛才講敏感族群你要保護我覺得連弱勢為什麼因為當學校周遭長期受汙染家長呢當然不得不要讓孩子轉學或跨學區就讀那是有能力的有能力的家庭可是如果事實上是沒有能力的家庭因為他是弱勢那你對弱勢支持是什麼就是繼續讓他們在更遏制的環境當中"},{"start":4293.052,"end":4322.052,"text":"那他的健康我常常說若是家庭經不起健康的問題他們沒有財力去處理他健康所以教育部是不是能夠去檢討有什麼機制協助這些孩子這些家庭在目前沒辦法處理的時候能不能符合最佳利益孩子最佳利益事實上是補貼交通費用讓他們離開這個環境嗎去其他學校就讀嗎還是事實上因為他根本事實上是沒有辦法"},{"start":4322.692,"end":4351.387,"text":"搬離這個地方所以請教育部先做一些評估一樣的跟我們的環境部在三個月內給我一個報告最後當然就是期待我們建立學校周邊的污染工廠的距離還有依據不同工廠樣態進行我們的盤點整頓的一些規範然後第二個教育部應該針對空污的風險高的學校裡面有具體的協助機制"},{"start":4351.857,"end":4370.103,"text":"第三個 三個月內將高中值以下納入到我們的室內空氣品質管理法的那個監測範圍第四 針對兒少專屬空屋的標準呢三個月內召集專家學者召開專家學者會議謝謝 趙偉謝謝委員很好的建議謝謝 我們會納入參考 謝謝好 謝謝林委員 謝謝部長還有各單位就照這個委員的建議來做這樣的後續處理那接下來請陳情惠委員來做選擇"},{"start":4387.309,"end":4391.376,"text":"主席謝謝各位委員還有各位官員我也想請彭部長謝謝請部長陳委員好"},{"start":4396.263,"end":4416.176,"text":"部長早部長記得上次我們有質詢過掛在您的署下一個計畫建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計畫這個計畫呢總經費要花96億元今年2025年正式上路那我也記得之前有曾經質詢過您今年我們預計用3000萬"},{"start":4418.278,"end":4439.758,"text":"採購第一台核生化災害處理車還有另外再花九千萬買三台化學災害處理車共計一億兩千萬元所以我想請問目前這個招標跟採購的計畫進度是如何好 報告委員 這個是不是請我們化學署副署長來回應因為這個是我可能都看不到這個招標案來 副署長謝謝委員"},{"start":4443.246,"end":4455.127,"text":"我們的建構國際安全化學計畫及能量性永續計畫是跨部會合作的部分那剛剛委員關心的部分他是跨部會的採購那是採購的一個權責都是在相關的部會裡面"},{"start":4456.573,"end":4476.949,"text":"所以你被掛名了 現在不知道自己進度在哪裡的事情不是 不是掛名 因為每個部會有他的採購程序那現在是三月嘛 那正在進行這個標案的一個審查跟採購作業這樣子所以上次有請教過部長 最後這些核生化處理車您要放在哪一個縣市政府 請問您現在溝通好了嗎"},{"start":4477.89,"end":4501.823,"text":"核生化處理的部分是國防部因為有儲屋的一個需求我們大概在15年前跟國防部合作買了就訂製了兩部的一個儲屋處理車但是年代已經很久遠了有些都已經老舊所以他必須要再重新去做採購的部分那至於說配在哪些縣市因為那是國防部他在主政做分配不會放在縣市應該是放在軍團的部分"},{"start":4503.204,"end":4530.003,"text":"所以其實你們這邊化學署是不清楚的只是你們跟人家一起掛了一個計畫報告委員不是不清楚我們都有定期的召開會議我們三個月才跟部會開過會議這樣子會瞭解他們的計畫所以還在採購中我們對整個計畫是有做控管的他整個進度都要報告到我們GPS的整個的流程上去做控管因為現在才三月份他是每一季要做一次報告的那就請部長回來"},{"start":4532.544,"end":4550.115,"text":"謝謝部長這個你應該也看過非常多的報導因為現在新興污染物這件事情很獲得重視而且超過六成的民眾缺乏對它的認識那當然其中包括塑料啊或是環境荷爾蒙啊以及除草劑農藥等等的殘留但這些東西一旦在空氣中經過降雨"},{"start":4551.696,"end":4564.059,"text":"到水裡面它同樣也會污染我們的水質今天您的報告大部分都在講到空氣品質但請問為什麼隻字未提空氣污染對水污染造成的防治跟因應呢"},{"start":4564.847,"end":4586.824,"text":"包委員因為目前我們台灣的水質例如說我們關心的PFAS等等它其實來源是我們實際上的污染直接排放到水體裡面去例如說PFAS的這個影響那我們國內的對重金屬對於水質的影響並不是很嚴重所以這個部分其實因為我們談的是PM2.5空瓶的危害那個倒到水裡面其實目前來看的話影響不是很高"},{"start":4587.484,"end":4610.181,"text":"對 我就是要跟您聊這個PFAS剛剛有講到說PFAS它會從空氣排到水你的水溫如果升高的時候其實PFAS就會揮發到空氣中水溫如果降低的時候PFAS就會流在水裡面所以您不覺得PFAS這樣子的新興污染物其實你也要列入你的空瓶空瓶的評鑑項目之一嗎"},{"start":4611.198,"end":4630.157,"text":"報告委員因為那個PFAS現在都是例如說我們國人過去用的例如說消防器或是食品的包裝那個為主那跟空氣裡面的量因為我們其實在去年跟NASA合作有去量那個空氣中裡面PFAS它的濃度跟亞洲的世界各國相比並不是特別的高"},{"start":4631.089,"end":4647.916,"text":"可是您看這是您之前2023年自己環境部做的報告耶你說2023年的時候全台灣你盤查起來有37座的淨水廠PFAS是超標的沒有其實沒有那麼的多我是不是請我們的水保司司長簡單的回答一下"},{"start":4649.622,"end":4679.023,"text":"跟委員報告剛才那個37座當時這個是美國的標準美國標準是在去前年的時候訂了一個全世界最嚴格的標準那事實上這個標準基本上非常的嚴格幾乎是不能減出那各國都在做這個PFAS相關的一個研究那我們是在去年的時候訂了這個相關的我們國內的標準這個國內的標準基本上參考了這個世界的衛生組織還有鄰近國家那我們訂了這個標準之後目前的一個"},{"start":4679.423,"end":4706.134,"text":"所以你的意思是說美國的標準太嚴格我們自己台灣稍微下修一下不能這麼說基本上因為美國他有生產跟製造PFAS然後他的軍工廠這個飛機廠這個相關的這個使用比較多而且歷史比較久那PFAS他是我們講的所謂的一個難分解的一個有機物他在環境中可能會比較久一點那美國因為他長期使用而且製造所以他的問題是相較比較嚴重好"},{"start":4707.595,"end":4733.395,"text":"好那今年呢其實1月的時候我發給您公文說請問這個會期你有沒有想要修法的一些環境部相關的法案結果您回答我是沒有現在問一下齁請問這個飲用水管理條例既然你都已經知道說有37座淨水廠致癌物超標好也許小於37座那你認為這個20年沒有修的飲用水管理條例到現在都不用再去管它嗎"},{"start":4734.605,"end":4762.117,"text":"報告委員這個其實我們在去年的11月25號就發布飲用水的水質標準的條例這個是我們用我們自己環境部就可以發布這個有發布了所以你不需要調整目前已調整了PFAS我們例如說PFOA跟PFOS要小於50那個NGL那你知道罰環關於你的罰環有多久沒有修改了嗎這個可能很久了這個對 化學度基本上是回到飲用水管理條例母法的規定"},{"start":4763.997,"end":4783.326,"text":"我跟你說28年28年沒有修改了等一下我們來看一下你的法環大概是多少這個就是您剛剛講到的2023年發現PFAS超標但是你到2024年8月中旬才開始預告說要制定相關的規範所以您現在其實是把相關的規範調整到比美國稍微再寬鬆一點"},{"start":4786.211,"end":4804.304,"text":"我們是跟日本相同的跟日本是一樣的標準所以從預告到上路最後呢2027年7月才會開始有處罰機制所以2027年7月往前這樣子回推是不是就算是一個免罰的空窗期"},{"start":4804.964,"end":4834.179,"text":"包委員其實不是這個是讓他們有機會去改善跟緩衝因為現在我們這個有幾個淨水廠是的確他的標準是比較高一點點那事實上他們一直逐漸在降低當中所以他們為什麼需要這麼長的時間可以跟我們大家解釋一下嗎包委員那個其實要改善PFAS水質表現他的這個製程淨水的這個設備是要大幅度的改善所以自來水公司希望他們自己要努力一點所以要到2027年我們才能比較安心一點"},{"start":4836.252,"end":4849.91,"text":"跟委員報告基本上我們曾經有普查過也參考了美國污染的一個案例的做法我們會針對機場附近的進水場優先那這個部分調查的結果基本上我們的瞭解復驗的結果基本上都符合規定這個部分沒有太大的問題"},{"start":4850.931,"end":4873.985,"text":"那進一步的話就是前面的一個調查的部分我們已經排定了一個稽查的一個計畫那會逐步來做那這個部分我們也了解了這個其他國家的一個污染的一個案例的了解基本上地面水鐵的部分不用太大關心不用太大擔心那只要是附近有污染的類似這個機場的話我們要特別注意那我們已經有做過相關的一個"},{"start":4874.085,"end":4896.857,"text":"部長我給你看一下這個就是28年從來沒有調整的假使有污染飲用水最高是罰6萬假使有新興污染物污染的飲用水最高是處罰60萬這是民國86年訂的我不知道您有沒有機會可以到我們中南部我週末才到高雄跑行程你應該知道到處都是加水站吧"},{"start":4897.867,"end":4923.078,"text":"那你知道民眾會去加水的原因是什麼嗎包委員其實目前我們環境部調查PFAS等等的污染只有地面水體只有一點點它就在機場的這個附近那至於說這個南部當然南部有些水質不好但是一部分是口感的問題啦但是其實水質的改善還是我們需要的目標因為它真的要改善花的錢多不只六萬啦它其實要花可能要六百萬或六千萬以上所以要給它一點點時間"},{"start":4923.678,"end":4941.328,"text":"因為可能一般民眾很重視的比如說清道垃圾或是糞便 尿液化學物品 動物的殘骸等等污染水質28年前訂立的罰金額度最高不超過6萬來處分你覺得合理嗎你覺得你這個需要研議來修正調整嗎"},{"start":4942.841,"end":4955.482,"text":"包括委員 這個其實是一個樣但是有時候我們處理都是會按日來的研發所以委員不用擔心所以你覺得不用修改當然啦 其實只要公布的話其實對這些飲用水的提供者的單位壓力會更大"},{"start":4957.116,"end":4974.73,"text":"你覺得六萬壓力很大不是只要我們跟大家講說這邊水油不能喝那邊有問題好那我等一下我等一下給你看一下哪邊水有問題你應該記得之前其實有一個牽管造成這個水質的汙染所以當時呢我們全台北市就找了相關的人免費喔到"},{"start":4975.53,"end":5002.603,"text":"市立醫院去辦理抽血的檢查 檢查這些圈有沒有過量那這是我們辦公室從你們環境部拿到的資料你們最近呢有發現一間大學有一個神經毒性的本超標64倍然後被開罰但你們並沒有告訴國人這件事情那根據國家環境毒物研究中心裡列為本就是一個致癌物但是你們卻沒有發布這個消息請問為什麼"},{"start":5006.188,"end":5020.659,"text":"這個是一個簡易自來水那簡易自來水的意思就是由自己因為他這個自來水管線沒有到達他自己設置的那是以設置的一個處理基本上這個處理的設備附近我們有發現說他有堆置其他的一些物品"},{"start":5021.42,"end":5040.522,"text":"所以他的本是來自於他堆置其他的物品對 還有其他的這一個相關的設施在那邊我們是覺得這個是一個問題所以我們後面去復驗的結果基本上已經都符合規定了那包含環保局的復驗還有這個檢疫自然水質管理單位那你們有關心這些師生的健康嗎 主席我就要好了"},{"start":5042.008,"end":5066.995,"text":"你們有關心這些失聲的健康嗎因為他們已經不知道暴露在這些神經毒性的本多久了這個部分因為對我們是覺得他是一個單一的一個事件因為這個可能還有這個相關的一個檢驗的問題都要重新再做一次確認所以我們復驗的結果基本上是符合規定所以你們復驗沒有那你們就覺得以前的這個本超標可能沒有對這群人造成危害"},{"start":5070.51,"end":5089.696,"text":"應該這麼說就是說這個本的這個項目基本上常常跟他的採樣也有很大的密切的關係所以我們也辦了復驗之後確定他沒有太大的問題那他們不用去接受一些檢查嗎這些已經暴露在這些本裡面的學校的工作人員"},{"start":5092.497,"end":5111.829,"text":"我們會再來跟這個科技大學做一個追蹤跟了解因為它基本上它是一個供水的這個簡易自然水的供水單位好我覺得這樣跟跟你們以前處理這個鉛重堵的事件有點落差太大了之後我會再跟你們追好嗎謝謝我再來了解喔謝謝謝謝好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長請回那接下來請盧縣立委員來做詢問"},{"start":5130.099,"end":5144.951,"text":"我們今天就談PM2.5的事情那我想先知道說這近年來的進步你覺得最主要的原因是什麼"},{"start":5145.977,"end":5168.924,"text":"報告委員其實很多人的努力啦例如說之前的這個大型的這個柴油車然後把空屏移動員管制那當然啦這個電力業其實他的減煤也是一種新的一個做法然後其實另外一個呢就是說如果未來我們要推動淨零其實整個整個生活型態的轉變那個其實也可以造成PM2.5的下降目前我們的PM2.5是多少大概"},{"start":5169.464,"end":5193.301,"text":"全國大概12.8有那麼好嗎有有有但是南部比較高一點點那目前OECD的標準是在10希望我們還是朝10的方向來努力好不好好可以那我先問你一下每10個也就是我所謂的PM2.5的濃度他的癌症的那個相對風險是多少大概是多少"},{"start":5193.781,"end":5219.606,"text":"對 包委員這個因為不一樣的學者他算的不一樣那我們現在其實環境部也想要啟動這個新一波的調查那我們現在在研議當中所以這個未來呢如果我們有好的數據再跟委員報告對 我還是告訴你現在的研究是2022年就是1.12倍每10個我們所謂的PM2.5的那個單位那PM2.5目前正佔我們肺癌的那個比例大概是16%左右所以這個還是要告訴國人"},{"start":5220.786,"end":5227.852,"text":"那我想要知道是說你知道我們現在引起肺癌而且是空污所造成大概是多少人死亡嗎"},{"start":5230.634,"end":5257.384,"text":"這個數字沒關係那我告訴你在2000年的時候全球市大概是100萬那預估在2050年的時候是350萬那這是我今天查的資料給你做報告雖然我們目前看到是有顯著的進步可是我相信因為我們生活在每天不一樣的大氣環境而且我知道空氣的變化是瞬息萬變所以我覺得每一個環節都必須要注意那我們來盤點一下我們目前的那個"},{"start":5258.564,"end":5269.745,"text":"我們的境外或者是說國內的污染來源狀況你看我們下一張我們現場這個就是說對我們現在很進步可是3月11號有拉警報你知道警報的原因是什麼嗎"},{"start":5271.042,"end":5291.968,"text":"那天有一些境外加上吹東風吹東風的影響然後西半部是一個很穩定的下沉氣流然後這個溫度又很低混合層比較低那你有告訴國人這件事情嗎有沒有通知各個縣市政府有有有這個也有應變的體制大概是多少的時間請問我們大氣司司長來"},{"start":5293.735,"end":5313.636,"text":"我最主要要講的原因就是說希望有即時性報委員其實這個空瓶在前兩天發覺這空瓶不好的時候我們其實檢測預報就已經通知各縣市那各縣市就其實接到通知以後他其實已經轉資所有的包含長照醫療等相關機構還有學校有確切的時間嗎有嗎"},{"start":5315.197,"end":5325.059,"text":"我們可以再提供給你們我們比較倒楣就在南部你看永遠都是在下風挫也就是說它比較不容易揮發的地方那有沒有針對這個部分來做努力"},{"start":5325.973,"end":5352.23,"text":"因為這個是整個台灣地形造成這個氣候的一個原因所以南部要馬上能夠很立即的改善要降到很快這個氣象的因素這個環境的因素我知道是環境的因素很重要可是我說我們有沒有在做努力有的確有在做努力例如說像未來的這個例如說我們能源結構的改變或是說我們汽機車能夠減少其實各種的負載其實都是有用的可是目前看到我們的檢測站目前全國是只有87站"},{"start":5353.611,"end":5375.591,"text":"那就針對我說比如說我住山地門比如說我等一下要去內埔就沒有這種鄉鎮市區的一個所謂的一個index那我今天要去旅遊我要去台東旅遊比如說我要去卑南鄉旅遊那我必須知道那邊的P2.5或者說那邊P2.5的來源它的污染源是什麼如果能夠更精確的話是不是可以導引我做一些生活上的改變"},{"start":5376.632,"end":5399.312,"text":"包括因為現在還是有一些這種微型的感測器的佔那個比較便宜那個就可以普測我們現在台灣大概還有1萬多個這種所謂的這個IoT的微型的這個空氣感測器那可以做但是那個其實他的變動性不確定性很高準確性所以那我們現在是兩個會去因為我們環境部標準的會跟他去做搭配所以未來我們可以嘗試的來試看看我們會來規劃一下"},{"start":5400.253,"end":5421.972,"text":"那我希望說那個點多設一點不然有些人會覺得說他永遠都在參考屏東市的我永遠都是參考潮州的可是我明明就不是住在那裡可以嗎好 委員我們會來研究一下OK 那針對我們目前的我們台灣的地形跟一些季節的影響我相信這些都是很複雜的所以我希望我們有我們自己的大氣的一個模式"},{"start":5422.512,"end":5441.463,"text":"所以是不是應該更跨部會比如說國科會中研院來針對我們自己的空汙氣象學來做研究所以應該是要針對我們的科技專案計畫來針對我們台灣各個地區各個不同一個所謂的地形做全方位的一個模型的研究或是建制可以嗎"},{"start":5441.903,"end":5467.011,"text":"包括委員因為我們去年那個NASA的飛機有兩趟次飛來台灣其實剛剛委員畫的那個圖就是那個計畫出來的結果那現在的確委員提到的國科會中央院我們正在準備想要進行這種跨部會的大型的甚至跟流行病學例如說我們的這個健康的資料庫相互的搭配那委員再給我們一點點時間規劃好之後再來貴院報告OK如果可以的話可以通知我嗎"},{"start":5467.611,"end":5488.709,"text":"好可以就是有成果的話那因為我們有一個空瓶的白皮書大概在3月底4月初的時候會出來我們都認為說空瓶是致癌物大家也確信齁那你知道它不僅是致癌物它也可以縮短因為你已經離癌了還是暴露在這樣的污染物當中你會縮短它的生命"},{"start":5491.799,"end":5503.885,"text":"對對會那現在我們奇怪我們的小朋友也是生活在這樣的一個環境當中你知道對他的哪方面有些影響嗎對他各種的發育啦甚至說呼吸器官都會有潛在的影響"},{"start":5504.588,"end":5529.32,"text":"我們研究了一下我看了2024年所謂的environmental health的一個文獻他說在整體表現如果每一個單位他可以減少0.27那所謂的performance IQ的話可以減少0.39很多那如果是語言上的一個表現的話會減少0.20這是每一個單位也就是說如果我們現在是10個單位的話你就乘以10"},{"start":5530.1,"end":5556.709,"text":"所以就知道這24小時鋪了在那個環境當中小朋友的對他的智力對他的行為或者是語言的發展都有很大的影響所以我們一直在講說我們一直有在努力可是上次有看到有2000個固定污染源其實都一直在重複在發生而且是在距離不到學校500公尺的一個地方一直在重複的在採訪可是這些有在進步嗎"},{"start":5558.37,"end":5582.045,"text":"這個其實是有的啦但是我必須也坦承跟委員報告有些其實做得還不夠因為我是覺得有些在學校附近的工廠他也缺乏跟鄰里之間的防護的意識這個我們是希望說未來跟學校家長會還有各方面我們今年會希望說建立幾個案例例如說屏東的獅子國中他旁邊就有一個立青廠他的這個下風書就是學校其實這個未來我們希望"},{"start":5582.645,"end":5597.121,"text":"我想說還是衛福部經濟部跟教育部跟地方政府都應該我們審慎考慮我們學校桌尾或者是說我們養護機構啊或是醫院啊或者是這些我們需要特別照顧的這些亞健康的族群的所在地好不好好 可以"},{"start":5597.602,"end":5612.714,"text":"然後我看到了新竹市政府有一個不錯的就是空氣品質維護區也就是針對麻街兒童院附近的這個籌劃那就是說我們能不能有一個就是相對應的就是說你們去學習好的然後把這個匯集到全國這樣子"},{"start":5613.595,"end":5638.458,"text":"好 委員提的這個建議就是我們想做的因為我們全國現在有八十幾個空氣品質維護區未來如果可以把它擴大的話 現在有八十五個啦那未來如果擴大 像委員提到那些地方的話我覺得這個是對我們保護弱勢族群是有很大的幫助的OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝陸委員 謝謝部長 那請回那接下來請王玉敏委員來做詢問"},{"start":5645.924,"end":5671.095,"text":"謝謝主席 我們是不是有請彭部長好 請部長王委員好部長好 部長你們在今天的報告裡面提到說我們PM2.5這個不良比例其實是有改善的全國的平均值你們比較起來是有在下降但是如果你看到我們的中南部"},{"start":5671.935,"end":5699.823,"text":"事實上你這個報告你提出來是一個平均值你如果看到中南部它距離我們的目標PM2.5維持在這個每立方公尺12維克其實差距很大你可以看到去年台灣嚴重的空污排名本島的前三名第一名是台南市第二名是高雄市第三名就是嘉義縣"},{"start":5701.443,"end":5721.854,"text":"那這個一個台灣兩個世界你的報告呈現出來說哇大幅改善但是事實上在中南部的朋友沒有感覺啊空氣還是很糟啊特別是我們看到從2月25號一直到3月12號真的是全台的空氣拉警報"},{"start":5723.206,"end":5744.172,"text":"就是我自己出去我都覺得 天啊我這個呼吸 我每多呼吸一口氣我都覺得這個到底我的肺還可不可以承受得住幾乎是從北到南 因為我現在每個禮拜都到嘉義去然後我以為到嘉義之後會改善 台北這樣子嘉義會好一點沒有啊 也是灰濛濛的一片"},{"start":5745.712,"end":5772.578,"text":"那我問一下部長 請問中南部這樣子的一個空污沒有改善 到底應該怎麼辦第一個我要問你的是 它的污染源到底來自於哪裡以嘉義縣來看的話 它本身的工廠沒有那麼多啊但為什麼嘉義縣的空氣這麼糟它的污染源 你們有比較細部的去分析說中南部這些污染源到底來自哪裡嗎它的上峰處是哪裡是從台中火力發電廠一路飄到嘉義縣嗎"},{"start":5775.069,"end":5801.917,"text":"報告委員其實我們環境部有針對各個縣市它的來源境內跟境外或是它的境內可能是自己縣境外可能是別的縣市好那我就問你嘉義縣它的空污的主要來源嘉義縣因為它本身並沒有大型的排放源它還是來自於例如說在秋冬的時候來自於上游例如說來自雲林或是彰化台中一起北部的這樣會一起下來都有可能都會累積都會經過嘉義也會跑到那個屏東去"},{"start":5802.884,"end":5825.941,"text":"所以大概就是從中部往下帶那如果是這樣子那就是中部這邊要改善嗎?污染源要改善嗎?但是也報告委員現在污染源的比例其實有很多種例如說固定污染源或是移動源就汽機車其實現在我們的汽機車的在以全台灣來講汽機車的污染源已經超過了這種固定的污染源了"},{"start":5826.401,"end":5841.16,"text":"這個就是我接下來要問你的我有聽到你剛剛在報告裡面說交通源已經大於這個工業源了那這樣針對移動污染源已經高於工業污染源那這個部分你們有對策嗎像今天也沒有交通部出席啊"},{"start":5843.095,"end":5858.801,"text":"你這是要跨部會的啊那你們有沒有跟交通部去商議說我們針對這個移動污染源我們到底再進一步我們可以怎麼樣有效的去降低我們具體的措施跟計畫是什麼坦白講現在我看不到這個部分你今天報告其實也沒有提"},{"start":5859.361,"end":5879.45,"text":"對 包委員這個是以台灣來說這是最困難一個案例那也跟委員報告我之前到韓國去他們遇到空污很嚴重的時候會發一個細胞簡訊那個簡訊裡面要大家不要開車到城裡面去那這個如果在台灣其實我相信大家反而是空污很嚴重我要開自己的車進去不要呼吸到空污這個是有很大的不一樣"},{"start":5879.79,"end":5903.129,"text":"所以我們會再想一下來協調一下如何在空污劑嚴重的時候這種所謂的移動的污染源如何讓它減少但是這個其實是跟民眾的生活是要改變是難度很高的也希望委員會來給我們支持好如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們應該好好去研議比較可行性的123的步驟是什麼而且必須進行社會溝通然後尋求大家的共識"},{"start":5903.649,"end":5926.768,"text":"比如說這個時候已經變成是移動污染源高於固定污染源所以不得不採取部分的措施那可能考量到大家交通的便利性或者是說以這個台北他捷運這麼的發達他或許他可以優先實施你說中南部他可能沒有車就不能出門了那你就要搭配就是你有公共運輸啊你有大型的可以讓大家接駁他才有可能自己不開車啊"},{"start":5927.709,"end":5945.119,"text":"要不然你那樣子的一個做法可能也達不到所以我希望這個部分針對移動污染源你們也是要去處理好不好那另外一個你們的那個空氣品質監測跟預報中心你什麼時候要上路你說你們要多增加這樣的一個中心它對於解決空污真的會有幫忙嗎"},{"start":5946.079,"end":5963.078,"text":"包委員其實他其實原來的人力還是在那邊只不過移到這個大氣師但是呢因為我們過去監測跟預報到最後應變這兩個不一樣的事在作業我們希望統合在一起你現在是整合成一個整合成一個預報中心在我們大氣師的下面所以他可能這個有效性會比較快"},{"start":5964.399,"end":5987.599,"text":"決策的方式會更快然後因為我們大氣司未來也要做各種的因為我們有一些空品的預報還有很多外圍的團隊我們希望把它統合在一起更有效率那你什麼時候要上路因為我們現在這個是調整整個環境部的組織法所以我們也報到院裡面的那再等一段時間那現在我們已經開始在初步的在整合了所以希望幾個月內會趕快成立"},{"start":5989.44,"end":5999.548,"text":"好我希望這個空瓶的改善必須持續因為對中南部的民眾真的覺得快受不了了另外一個我要問的是這個環境污染的問題我們發展風電我們當然贊成但是這個竟然出現風機葉片在高美濕地躺了10年沒有人發現也不需要處理那這樣的一個狀況在你們的環瓶裡面"},{"start":6017.601,"end":6041.069,"text":"環評計畫書其實也沒有要求開發單位針對這一個風機他壽命到了他應該要怎麼樣的回收跟處理必須寫在他的計畫裡面也是不知缺乳所以這個案例一報導出來之後大家都覺得這個也太誇張了就是風機葉片廢棄在那邊躺了10年不聞不問然後也都沒有處理好像是無政府狀態那針對這個部分要怎麼改善這個部長"},{"start":6045.171,"end":6066.142,"text":"好 包委員這個部分台中市環保局已經進行的這個集合了他至於如何處罰這個我還沒有清楚但是他們已經去查核了我們未來會監督那第二個呢是其實這個東西是可以再回收的當然我必須坦承委員因為這個是很早期的這個張建有快20年了那個是第一代那時候環評各方面針對這個的處理都沒有很清楚"},{"start":6066.542,"end":6094.348,"text":"那現在新的部分我們都會要求目的事業及主管機關一定要去做處理那台電呢其實現在他們也允諾他們會去做這個方面的重新的在去化的過程中去做準備那你這個什麼一個是這個什麼時候要清理完畢現在清理到什麼程度這個是我們會責成台電公司來進行這個清理完畢那他們有答應他們會來處理的多久要完成要限期完成啊這什麼時候要完成這個報告委員我們是不是請台電來回應好"},{"start":6097.864,"end":6122.818,"text":"報告委員我是台電專業總工程師溫環正那目前台中所發現的那個風機散落的葉片我們已經整理我們已經清理完畢了現在目前是放在我們的倉庫裡面暫置所以你們都已經移除了現場已經清理乾淨了清理完畢了那現場的土地有沒有受到污染沒有都沒有是環保單位應該要再去確定一下吧是有嗎"},{"start":6124.837,"end":6150.616,"text":"這個是台中市環保局相關的事項我們現場已經把它清理完畢了已經完全清理完畢了好 那另外一個我要追問那個就是未來在環評的部分因為我們現在風力發電其實有非常多場然後現在也面臨到有一些已經這個要到期了那所以這個部分到底現在在整個環境部的環評裡面你們的這一些有關於這一些風機它事後的這個回收"},{"start":6152.637,"end":6167.533,"text":"你們有沒有在環評計畫裡面去要求他們要提出他們的計畫報告委員是有的現在已經有了嗎已經有了已經有名文你們是寫在哪裡的他如果要除役或是說要延役這個其實要主動去提對要主動提這些事情"},{"start":6167.813,"end":6189.642,"text":"那你們是在你們哪一個相關規定裡面已經有納進去你們有要求他在這一個後續的回收裡面要納進來報告委我們在環評審查的時候審查結論裡頭就有一條會要求他就是說在除疫前一年要提出他的除疫計畫而且規定他這個葉片啊機具都要朝回收方面去處理這個部分我們已經都有"},{"start":6190.302,"end":6215.847,"text":"都有明文要求嘛 現在每一場其實你們都提出要求只要是風力發電有經過環評 環評都有這樣子的要求研議的部分也會要求研議目前並不是我們環評的要求我們環評其實依照現在認定標準是新設機組才必須要那研議的部分呢研議的部分就要回歸到目的事業主管機關依他的那個管理電業法去管理他"},{"start":6216.647,"end":6232.741,"text":"那為什麼這部分環境部不能研議都不需要經過你們只要經濟部就好我這邊跟委員報告一下我們環評的目的是等於是要減輕或預防他新設基礎造成的環境的影響所以在"},{"start":6233.762,"end":6257.898,"text":"它新設基礎的時候我們去考量它對環境的衝擊影響甚至它有沒有一些減輕的措施那至於它正式上路營運以後它是依照電業法是跟目的事業主管機關去申請所以後續的它的管理甚至是它的研議它是依照電業法去跟目的事業主管機關申請研議所以這個部分我們還是回歸到目的事業主管機關的法規去管理所以我們"},{"start":6258.618,"end":6262.324,"text":"所以你們這邊沒有有漏掉的我的意思是說他前期他可能並沒有提出這個計畫然後他又跟經濟部提出研議了然後之前他也沒有提出任何這個他的風機回收計畫有沒有這樣的一個案例我要求你們回去再清查一遍好不好"},{"start":6274.763,"end":6299.599,"text":"應該是說有一些沒有經過環評的案子的話也許有可能因為它是很早期的時候它是跟直接就跟那個目的事業主管我知道但這個就會遇到像這一場台電同樣的問題嘛早期的沒有嘛等到他要除役的時候他可能就是會不會又是直接放著然後就不處理嘛那這一個部分我希望經由這一次的事件就是整個的漏洞我們都把它補起來"},{"start":6300.6,"end":6326.665,"text":"不能因為我們要發展風力發電但是他事後的善後這些回收都沒有做到位又造成另外一次的環境的污染這個我們就不允許好不好而且部長部長應該也會跟那個經濟部會協調就是後面一定會做好這相關的問題部長我希望你們跟經濟部要求這個不要漏洞產生好不好沒問題好謝謝謝謝王也謝謝部長那接下來請廖偉祥委員來做詢問"},{"start":6342.5,"end":6343.361,"text":"謝謝主席,有請彭部長"},{"start":6356.909,"end":6378.091,"text":"部長好 那想要請教目前全台的這個規劃已經規劃七座天然氣接收站那包含台中港的這五街台塑的六街等新增的站體那暫時然而我們的政府好像從未針對全台接收站的總量進行一個上位的政策的環評"},{"start":6379.552,"end":6403.487,"text":"僅是以個案的方式審查所以導致各接收站的累積性的環境衝擊完全沒有納入評估那請問部長在沒有進行全台的這個全台性的政策環境的這個狀況下要如何確保這個七座的接收站不會對於我們西部的沿海生態系譬如說白海豚、珊瑚郊區造成不可逆的破壞"},{"start":6404.568,"end":6419.709,"text":"因為部長我們台灣的西部海岸大約有460公里就有7座天然氣的接收站平均每65公里平均每65公里就有一座天然氣接收站那依照"},{"start":6421.191,"end":6448.068,"text":"2024年這個GGIT的資料全球興建中及規劃興建天然氣的接收站大概目前是只有中國大陸印度和越南比我們多那換算下來我們現在應該算是全球的天然氣接收站密度最高的國家所以想要請教部長或者是我們經濟部的代表全球數據在這裡難道我們還是要繼續不用依照目前環評法第26條進行政策環評嗎"},{"start":6451.329,"end":6474.502,"text":"因為政策環評需要目的事業主管機關跟我們提出那我環境部無法對這個直接提對那你認為是不是應該要如果說因為這個以美轉氣是我們過去這個政府的這個政策這個是既定的政策沒關係部長你覺得是不是目前進行到這個階段雖然目的事業主管機關沒有提出那以你環境部的角度你是否認為應該要進行這個所謂的政策環評"},{"start":6477.623,"end":6506.193,"text":"包委員其實如果各種的例如說太陽能的發展能源的發展如果有一個政策環評讓社會可以有充分的共識我們當然歡迎但是也非您支持嘛對不對其實您支持應該要但是我們也支持這種以煤轉氣因為其實我們過去燃煤其實造成通貨比較嚴重但是部長這是兩件事嘛我剛剛問的是兩件事嘛你不能問A答B嘛我就問說你支不支持你認不認為這個事情已經讓我們台灣算是西部海岸我們的密度最高啊接收器的密度最高啊"},{"start":6506.613,"end":6533.551,"text":"天然氣接收站的密度最高是不是應該要你是不是支持應該要做所謂的政策環評啊報告委員因為還有一個也跟我們報告像新加坡大概95%也都是燒天然氣啊沒關係部長我想要問的就是依照我國的狀況啊我跟你說政策政府政策環境影響評估作業辦法的第三條規定下列有這個政策有影響環境之餘者應實施環境影響評估嘛那其中第五款的內容可否請我們部長唸出來啊這個"},{"start":6540.715,"end":6566.508,"text":"這個目前齁如果是政策環評推動這些東西其實當然能源政策是一項啦但是政策環評是一個事前的溝通他並對於這個案是沒有強制力的所以部長但是問題就是這上面其實寫的還是贏不是得喔所以我意思就是說如果我們經濟部鴕鳥型態環境部也不管兩個部會都是鴕鳥型態的話那這樣算不算行政怠惰因為你剛剛也說你覺得應該要去溝通這件事情而且應該做這樣的政策環評嘛對不對"},{"start":6568.314,"end":6583.005,"text":"如果說有更多的溝通當然是好事但是這個不會影響到個別的影響因為政策環比我覺得會耶為什麼以五街為例喔台電規劃在台中港外面就是現在有這個台灣媽祖與寶玉聯盟已經提出白海豚誤闖"},{"start":6584.466,"end":6603.827,"text":"港區致死案例顯示既有四街還有台中港擴建與五街的疊加效應可能超出生態的承載力所以我剛剛講的就是因為目前為止我們現行都是逐岸審查模式可能沒有辦法去評估區域性的生態衝擊尤其是多個戰體發生的時候"},{"start":6605.709,"end":6632.62,"text":"所以另外經濟部宣稱七階接收站完工後天然氣進口量將從2000萬噸提升至3900萬噸以滿足非核家園政策下燃氣發電佔比50%的目標但是這也不是我講的中興大學也研究指出若再生能源進度延宕可能過度依賴天然氣將使接收站的負載率長期超標也反正所謂供氣風險"},{"start":6634.284,"end":6658.144,"text":"所以我想要請教就是我剛說的就是你是逐案逐案的審可是你並沒有針對整件事情對環境的衝擊有一個更上位的所謂的政策環評所以我也想要請教一下那如果七街我們經濟部的代表七街接收站的數量設定是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提請經濟部"},{"start":6662.489,"end":6682.156,"text":"報告委員那有關這個天然氣接收站的這個興建那確實是依照我們這個能源轉型的這個政策的這個目標去去做這個相關的接收站的一個興建那所以這個那我想要請問那如果如果再生能源沒有達到36%的目標的話是否需要再增建接收站那請問要達標如果請問要達標的話要擴建多少才夠"},{"start":6688.155,"end":6701.98,"text":"目前我們天然氣發電的這個佔比是以50%的這個目標為是啦所以我剛剛就問說你們是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提然後去設定這七個七座"},{"start":6704.369,"end":6731.778,"text":"欸再生能源部分是另外再生能源大概20%的這個目標沒有反過來講就是說如果再生能源沒有達標那你不夠你會不會要再增加所謂的天然氣的部分各有各的一個目標要去努力去實施對嘛那你還是沒回答我問題嘛所以我要講的事情就是部長啊就是如果沒有經過政策環評那只是為了達到數字而盲目開發又沒辦法說出到底可不可以達標然後說兩邊都要努力達標那最後你沒有達標的話"},{"start":6732.618,"end":6759.317,"text":"那對於我們環境的衝擊會是什麼對於這個政策的環評有沒有去做一個全方位的檢視我覺得這就是我很想表達的所以我是想要說如果我們還是不面對不去做這件事情的話民進黨現在執政你們現在執政的做法就是是不是就各個突破我就單一個點單一個點點來看那這樣子可能真的會忽視掉整個政策對於我們環境的衝擊如果整體來看的因為它可能有疊加的效應嘛"},{"start":6760.077,"end":6775.917,"text":"所以因為如果不做的話那是不是這個評估作業辦法也可以就廢掉不要用了所以我要講的事情是要請部長認真考慮不只是五接而是全台的這個接收站跟儲氣廠的累積性的環評報告跟總量管制的方案"},{"start":6777.025,"end":6796.452,"text":"不要讓我們台灣的海岸淪為天然氣接收站的這個競逐場或讓整個西部海岸成為能源的犧牲帶我們希望可以有一個讓社會更安心知道說你們在做整個所謂這個能源轉型政策的時候它到底整體對於我們的社會對於我們的環境會有多大的衝擊部長我要表達這個"},{"start":6798.223,"end":6827.431,"text":"可以嗎好謝謝委員的意見喔那我們會納入參考因為這個其實目前的整個天然氣以氣轉煤是我們這個目前的基地的一個政策啦那至於說五接因為我們沒有收到這個他們的經濟部提出來所以經濟部應該要提出來或是你應該去溝通他們提出來吧是吧因為不然你環境部這不就是對於環境部很重要的主要業務嗎你整個能源政策或是整個政策的這個環境評估這應該是對於我們臺灣國人也很重要的一件事情"},{"start":6828.351,"end":6849.526,"text":"對 鮑委員其實以這個使用把這個煤淘汰掉我相信這個對我們整個環境我完全是贊同的嘛但是我的意思就是說因為你這個接收站你的規劃到底對我們衝擊有多少然後以及你現在再生能源沒有達標的話那你的天然氣接收站是不是要再增加這一切都可能對於我們環境評估有不同的"},{"start":6850.547,"end":6876.244,"text":"結果這個部分我就是要提醒部長我覺得你們真的要認真考慮去做這個所謂的政策環評比較上位的政策環評好嗎好謝謝委員的建議謝謝部長另外一件事情第二件事就是環境部日前有公布我們去年的空氣品質的監測結果截至去年11月底全台平均2.5的平均濃度為12.5微克立方公尺所以較前年的13.7有所改善"},{"start":6877.245,"end":6884.453,"text":"但是目前為止我有看到環團在質疑目前全台的法定手動PM2.5策戰僅有31處而自動策戰有78處"},{"start":6889.488,"end":6917.552,"text":"那環境部卻排除了自動測站的數據只接受手動站的數據而根據環團的分析這個檢視全台的自動測站PM2.5的資料台澎金馬所有的空品區PM2.5的年均值實際是14.2微克地方公尺高於環境部公布的數字也特別在高雄全台十大空品最糟的自動監測站中有八站都在高雄"},{"start":6918.444,"end":6933.013,"text":"那官方手動測站顯示17.4微克而自動測站顯示是18.23微克所以這個問題就是這樣部長為何不使用所有可用的監測數據來呈現完整的空氣品質的圖像"},{"start":6935.504,"end":6952.761,"text":"這不就是會讓人家質疑說是不是為了要讓我們PM2.5的數值被低估讓環境部可以選擇性的使用這些數據有意想要美化空氣污染的嚴重度誤導公眾的認知好 包委員我是學這個的我可以跟委員說明第一個"},{"start":6953.602,"end":6979.173,"text":"如果我已經在家裡面洗澡的時候你放一個PM2.5你洗澡的時候馬上就超標因為水氣會讓這個小粒子變大所以其實我們這個為什麼要變手動它會把這個水氣濾掉才是真實PM2.5的危害謝謝部長 謝謝你講到 我知道你們環境部曾經表示過自動測站容易受水氣空氣中的鹽分影響所以手動測站能夠修正污染物素值的偏差"},{"start":6980.353,"end":7003.299,"text":"但這也讓人家質疑一件事是不是也是一種校正回歸的手段但是退一步說你如果覺得自動策戰這麼沒有用這麼有可能有很多誤差的話那為什麼環境部還要持續投入大量的資金升級PM2.5的自動監測設備這不就自相矛盾嗎如果你剛剛講的這些東西都不可靠那為什麼要投資這不是很好笑嗎"},{"start":7004.139,"end":7021.935,"text":"既然不可靠如果他又可靠的話不可靠你為什麼要投資那可靠的話你為什麼又要拒絕使用他的這個數據嗎包委員手動跟自動在國際上有它一個標準現在大概都是以手動為主那自動的話為什麼還要增設因為其實它有一個趨勢型的有意義"},{"start":7022.495,"end":7034.191,"text":"而且我們透過這個手動跟自動的這個所謂的這個修正之後其實會更真實到結果但是手動跟自動這兩個數值其實我們在應變裡面我們會同步來看但是它代表是不一樣的意義的"},{"start":7035.724,"end":7055.019,"text":"那你公布的數據你還是只選擇用手動測試沒錯那這樣子是真的會讓國人比較安心嗎但是那個是國際上認可標準的數字就很像說有一家國外公司他公布說我們台灣的PM2.5的數值跟他就不一樣他那個是屬於自動型的而且很便宜的那這個反而會造成很大的誤解"},{"start":7055.515,"end":7083.46,"text":"所以你投入自動的這個監測工具是有其他的使用目的就對了對 兩個都可以同時看但是我相信未來的話自動的設備如果可以把環境或水氣的因素濾除的話其實它會更準確的這個還要等可能要再等一段時間所以你們現在投資的就是希望說這個新的東西是可以更加準確所以未來你們才可以採納對 兩個到時候我相信兩個應該都有一個交叉點那個時候我們就不用了好 謝謝喔那簡單來講"},{"start":7085.28,"end":7105.635,"text":"謝謝部長那我們還是要最後提醒一下我希望部長這邊可以真實的呈現數據我認為應該要誠實呈現數據然後誠實面對我們問題還要務實解決我們的問題因為包含你剛剛也有提到所謂能源結構的問題到底可不可以達成這些也都有關於我們今天討論的題目謝謝部長好 謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝廖委員 謝謝部長接下來請邱正軍委員來做選打"},{"start":7112.881,"end":7115.184,"text":"那教育委員宣導完之後 我們就休息十分鐘謝謝好 我們有請我們部長 黃部長請部長"},{"start":7130.174,"end":7151.811,"text":"邱委員好部長好我看了我們環境部的書面報告注意到2月27號西半部品質我們的空品持續惡化那環境部曾經成立中央第二級空氣污染防治指揮中心並召集我們地方環保局等單位召開應變會議而且協調經濟部台電公司進行協和邁遼台中"},{"start":7159.937,"end":7184.848,"text":"興達電廠降載減排那降載總共降載了11億3199萬度的這個電量對嗎對那我想請問部長去年一年曾經成立第二級或者是第一級防制指揮中心有幾次沒有因為大概三年已經沒有三年多沒有成立這個也就是說去今年才發生"},{"start":7185.948,"end":7213.762,"text":"比較嚴重的狀況這麼汙染這麼大以前是怎麼樣以前是我們的機器不好還是怎麼樣沒有就是剛好這次的事件比較嚴重那另外一個是我們AQI有沒有查一下什麼原因會造成這個主要是那天還是一個氣象因素因為吹東風然後整個西半部的整個我們最主要是為AQI加嚴所以加嚴讓我們其實AQI很容易達到這個不良等級那第二個是那天是氣象因素吹東風"},{"start":7214.702,"end":7236.923,"text":"所以這三年來就沒有成立過辦公室?沒有沒有 大概三年多所以我們也很慎重的來成立這個應變中心那我們台灣企業用電需求越來越高如果是成立空氣污染防治指揮中心的時候降載用電的需求產生衝突的時候是聽你的還是要聽經濟部的?"},{"start":7238.354,"end":7250.497,"text":"我們是一起協同作業啦協同作業當然我們不能讓所有的全台灣都不要用電所以我們還是會要協同作業互相協調來完成這個事情我請經濟部的代表來一下好不好國營署副市長還有產化署營運署你好"},{"start":7266.807,"end":7287.468,"text":"前年我國那個火電發電佔比是82%那核能發電佔佔6.3%嘛對吧那現在我們準備核能要歸零那我想請問一下這部分的電力未來要用哪一種電來補"},{"start":7289.704,"end":7313.136,"text":"核能因為我們的那個能源轉型就是大概是減煤增氣,斬綠跟非核就是核能電廠接觸之後我們就是用這個我們的這個增加我們天然氣的發電然後增加再生能源的發電然後減少這個燃煤的發電目標是這樣子然後占比大概是燃氣是50%燃煤30%還有再生能源20%"},{"start":7314.156,"end":7333.47,"text":"你說燃氣是50 50 58然後呢然後藍莓30藍莓30對那什麼時候你藍莓還要一直用啊還有你準備火力發電還是要繼續要使用火力發電其實包括那個藍莓跟燃氣都是火力發電對我的意思說你這兩個加起來就幾%了80對將近80%你認為這個不需要改嗎"},{"start":7337.792,"end":7360.122,"text":"這個部分就是說增加了天然氣是因為可以減少CO2的排放大概是以這個 但是造成的那個汙染呢天然氣的汙染是比較沒有這麼嚴重那所以 我看天然氣的那個CO2的那個那個IPC 比藍莓減少很多對啊 它是差得這樣一個820然後一個是490對吧 這兩個還是算是高的啊"},{"start":7368.03,"end":7391.299,"text":"你認為這些一直長期在使用這個狀態的時候我們對我們的國人的健康不會受到影響嗎我們當然是希望能夠盡量減少這個污染的排放包括CO2排放因為它轉成碳排放也是荼毒人民的肺我覺得是這樣那我請問那個電力公司台電你們一度電買一度電就賠一度"},{"start":7393.049,"end":7397.452,"text":"合適賠了兩千多億也還掛在帳上嘛對不對不敢銷帳目前你們都沒有專業堅持我們讓我們執政黨隨便這樣宰割那我想請問一下現在是要漲電價是嗎目前還沒有現在電價審議委員會還沒有召開還沒有召開我是聽到那這個部分要推給立法院來扛這個責任"},{"start":7421.711,"end":7449.073,"text":"報告委員沒有我們是尊重3月份的電價審議委員會來決定所以我覺得啦你們該有的這個專業的這個判斷我覺得你們還是要提出來該講話的時候還是要講話這個才對你的專業來負責嘛對不對是好那我們請回那我請教部長我看到你們要成立空氣品質監測與預報中心"},{"start":7451.232,"end":7467.264,"text":"是這樣嗎對對對那我想說我想請問一下那剛剛講的我們剛剛我們剛剛有講到我們有成立第二級的這個空氣污染防治指揮中心那跟這個東西真的現在你要成立的這個中心有沒有有沒有不一樣的地方"},{"start":7468.004,"end":7490.195,"text":"因為我們過去的空氣品質的監測跟預報都在我們監製師來做那因為我們要強化AI的運用所以我們把監製師改名叫做環境科技與資訊師他強化AI數位治理的應用所以這個不是再增加一個部門不是不是我們把它移過來移到大氣師裡面因為大氣師要負責應變那應變呢從監測預報到應變把它整合起來就是單位換名稱"},{"start":7494.097,"end":7516.894,"text":"當位換名稱 然後整合人力所以並沒有說額外增加新的預算或人力所以 這個是要成立這個是因為我們自己在專業務上的考量對 業務的考量不是什麼氣候變遷委員會開會的時候決定的嗎不是不是不是啦 對對對好 那我想請問一下那做了這個之後 檢測中心之後如果現在空氣品質超標"},{"start":7518.38,"end":7524.647,"text":"然後呢然後這個中心他現在從上游的監測到預報到最後他們大氣勢的應變都會再統合一個單位來處理"},{"start":7528.598,"end":7553.851,"text":"等於它就有它有跨部會的一個功能現在已經有了但是我們希望它的這個功能性還有人員的這個培訓可以更好讓它大一點點一起協同作業超標之後我們要怎麼辦超標之後例如說好假設有二級就由我們司長來召集我們環境部還有各個縣市環保局一起來做那如果一級很嚴重的就是有環境部跟邀集各個部會一起來做這個"},{"start":7554.932,"end":7570.647,"text":"那有沒有計算過這個成本我們這個經費要花多少錢這個都在我們原有的預算並沒有增加然後我想重點空氣污染最大的來源當然就是發電不然你也不會叫台電來降載對不對"},{"start":7572.338,"end":7599.061,"text":"那我想目前看到的我們看到民進黨執政快要十年了能源政策是民進黨政府始終不敢面對的問題拿著廢核的神主牌搖擺不定這個到後來我覺得對台灣來講是非常傷害非常的大你長期的使用火力發電或者這個火力發電造成了我們老百姓的健康影響是非常大的我覺得部長你應該要"},{"start":7601.933,"end":7617.504,"text":"盡早來解決這樣的一個問題我不敢講說你一定要把這個核能恢復那但是至少要找到一個更好的變通方法當然也不是無條件的一直用這個綠能來替代這個電您認同嗎"},{"start":7621.4,"end":7647.738,"text":"包委員其實我也坦承說我們剛剛有一個圖表說我們的污染源來源裡面這種固定污染源譬如說電力排放失業其實我們移動源已經超過固定源了所以其實這個也是交通也是我們一個努力的目標那剛剛委員提到的能源政策其實包含燃氣跟燃煤它的燃氣的雖然有排放二氧化碳但是比燃煤少很多所以其實二氧化碳其實它並不會對人體造成直接的影響而且它的空污量會減化"},{"start":7649.119,"end":7672.097,"text":"那我們現在如果要發展綠能或是新的能源在這個之前氣還是一個必要的一個轉圜那當然這個部分要多久目前如果以我們在規劃這個淨零的路徑來看的話當然是希望說在2030年例如說燃氣50之後慢慢慢慢的往下降那這個降的話2050年它會更好可能只剩下20%左右當然會是更好的"},{"start":7673.15,"end":7693.85,"text":"還要那麼久啊 你們這個還要二三十年欸對 這個氣 因為氣開始蓋它用它就要二十多年的一個時間所以當然 但是報告委員其實氣大多數是國家它在面對轉型的時候是一個過渡型的一個能源因為我們現在的再生能源並沒有那麼快那麼順利的能夠可以起來所以你們覺得還是覺得說現在廢核是對的啊"},{"start":7697.208,"end":7716.671,"text":"我沒有說是對但是委員我在當時算淨零入境的時候其實也發現到核能如果要真的啟動的話面臨到法令要修然後還要幫安全檢查核廢料的處理還有研議也要一些費用所以其實這個都是我無法無法去預期預知的所以你有考慮過同步來做這件事情"},{"start":7718.129,"end":7734.66,"text":"目前以我的專業來看,我當然要經濟部或是河安會來處理,但是以我的專業來看的話,的確是非常的困難在台灣,有一點挑戰。但是我覺得你那個時間點拉太長,我們國人健康非常重要,絕對不能拖吧?"},{"start":7737.036,"end":7763.981,"text":"對但是委員這個如果說將核能如果非核家園這個如果要研議的話核二加核三就是300億度的電跟我們目前未來國家需要的電力恐怕好啦我還是覺得部長您發揮你的專業該爭取的時候就要爭取好不好好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝邱委員謝謝部長我們現在要休息10分鐘休息10分鐘之前提醒部長這個CO2的監測是自動而手動"},{"start":7768.963,"end":7795.281,"text":"自動自動比較不準樓下教育委員會應該是700我們是教育委員會的double再多一點點一般超過1000就開始昏睡其他的委員都8分鐘就離開了你跟我在這邊要待到結束所以是不是請部長趕快應變一下好不好好,休息10分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":7806.527,"end":7814.48,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8425.506,"end":8430.328,"text":"好 休息時間到 我們現在正式開會繼續開會 接下來請圖權級委員來做詢問好 謝謝 請我們彭部長還有請一下我們衛福部的副署長衛福部哪位副署長"},{"start":8458.377,"end":8479.466,"text":"那我先請問一下我們衛福部請問一下我們目前我們十大癌症我們衛福部我問一下那個有關癌症的問題好那有關我們目前十大癌症我們殘年冠軍的是哪一個癌症"},{"start":8481.096,"end":8485.019,"text":"委員你好 我們正式請國民健康署這邊來做相關的回答對 我們十大癌症 目前我們全國十大癌症然後蟬聯冠軍的是哪一個癌症"},{"start":8504.164,"end":8527.884,"text":"那個肺 肺癌對啊喔 肺癌好 對啦因為這個之前大腸癌嘛那現在這幾年都是肺癌已經纏連我們十大癌症的冠軍那其實我們根據我們目前一些科學數據的驗證喔肺癌也跟我們空氣品質有絕對的關係嘛有直接的關係 對吧"},{"start":8531.138,"end":8550.07,"text":"那所以我們可以知道像我們有一個基因專家基因醫師張嘉明他也做過一個科學的報告也就是說他針對他們研究PM2.5跟肺腺癌的增加有密不可分的關係這部分我們衛福部這邊應該有掌握這個訊息吧有有嗎那"},{"start":8557.908,"end":8573.269,"text":"據我們這個報告有看到那我們針對肺癌的部分可是肺癌雖然跟我們抽菸也有直接的關係可是我們發現到有一個數據這裡面有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸時的這部分"},{"start":8575.011,"end":8592.526,"text":"有沒有掌握這個訊息委員針對肺癌的部分目前其實發生的原因就是抽菸嘛然後跟空氣汙染還有這個子夜的暴露另外就是家族史對啊所以空氣品質嘛就是抽菸還有我們空氣品質有絕對的關係所以"},{"start":8595.769,"end":8618.084,"text":"我們經過我們發現這肺癌裡面居然有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸三分之一有抽菸死所以我們也可以從這個證明我們空氣品質對於我們肺癌有絕對直接的關係這一部分應該沒有問題吧它是其中的原因之一對嘛好那接下來我再問一下我們彭部長"},{"start":8619.993,"end":8643.129,"text":"因為這部分只是請我們衛福部來證明因為現在這癌症就是我們十大癌症已經纏連冠軍而且絕對跟我們空氣品質有絕對關係已經經過專家學者有科學數據的顯示那空氣品質當然抽菸還有我們PM2.5等等都是影響的因素那肺癌"},{"start":8643.709,"end":8668.608,"text":"肺癌患者裡面有三分之二是完全沒有抽菸所以我們也可以合理的推斷這三分之二就是因為我們空氣品質所造成的這部分部長應該同意吧同意不過委員這個空氣品質有室內跟室外例如說我們家裡面的很多的生活習慣大概佔了我們八成的時間都在室內所以室內跟室外不一樣但是我們有"},{"start":8670.109,"end":8683.456,"text":"數據顯示嘛就是PM2.5跟肺腺癌有密不可分的關係所以這部分也讓我們希望我們環境部是我們環境最高的主管機關我們衛福部可以先請下去了"},{"start":8685.285,"end":8699.033,"text":"那所以我們今天也是討論減碳的部分所以也凸顯了我們減碳是勢在必行因為這跟我們國人健康有絕對直接的關係那我們在今年初一月23號我們賴總統有召開第三次氣候變遷委員會的會議我記得我在去年的時候"},{"start":8706.317,"end":8729.984,"text":"那時候我們彭部長在8月23號也曾經講過在2032年我們檢探目標要往40%邁進這部分我記得彭部長你有說過吧就是我個人希望說未來2032年的時候我可以到那樣的目標但是我們後來召集各個部會得到這樣新的數字所以本來彭部長是希望能夠達到40%那後來"},{"start":8732.725,"end":8755.77,"text":"跟我們部會氣候變遷委員會討論之後後來新的目標是降低的嗎對就是說這個其實是因為當時我的理想我希望2032可以到40那我記得那時候李遠哲李院長他也希望說50所以我們後來但是我必須跟委員報告那個其實是我們會籍的環境部會籍的各個部會提出的減碳計畫最後得出這樣的數字"},{"start":8757.511,"end":8770.166,"text":"所以我記得我上次會期也有跟彭部長討論過因為我們現在的能源政策再加上我們彭部長的減碳目標我們覺得這個是背道而馳的因為我們現在"},{"start":8772.649,"end":8790.23,"text":"所發電的幾乎它的碳排量都是非常高那我們的能源政策碳排量都非常高那我們現在能源政策碳排量一直在增加結果我們環境部減碳的目標又一直定的那麼高所以我們說這好像是背道而馳嘛"},{"start":8791.355,"end":8807.388,"text":"包委員因為其實燃氣跟燃煤它的排炭係數不一樣所以我們未來這幾年減碳其實很大一部分就是燃氣燃煤換成燃氣所以這個其實是有效果的那另外一個就是說燃氣它的污染也比燃煤少很多所以目前這個階段是對的"},{"start":8808.669,"end":8832.981,"text":"那當然我知道委員一定說希望關於核能的部分不過核能也跟委員報告其實真的要做的話其實我自己在算的時候也有問過台電或等等他包含要修正法規還有核安檢查核廢料的處理其實那個都不是我環境部可以來主管來推動的事情它的變數是非常多的在這個地方也跟委員報告所以我相信部長對這些也了解我們現在發電我們現在發電"},{"start":8836.762,"end":8860.688,"text":"結構最大的就是第一個就是燃氣嘛第二個就是燃煤再來就是再生能源然後再來核電跟燃油這個也是台電的數據那可是如果說以我們現在發電的方式你看那個燃煤發電最多燃氣發電最多可是你看它的碳排的係數它的碳排係數都是最高的"},{"start":8861.588,"end":8890.909,"text":"所以針對這部分剛剛彭部長也有講所以我一直認為說以我們環境部這部分來講是不是核能發電其實應該還是要以環境部的立場應該是要考慮核電來納入對於我們減碳是不是比較有幫助包委員其實環境部唯一的主管就是說如果核電它的要除液還有或是說它的幹式儲存槽它需要環評這個是我們可以主管的"},{"start":8891.209,"end":8919.25,"text":"那當然如果以減碳的話這個核能它的確是一個相對於低碳排的一個能源但是它也會有它的這個壓力存在所以這個部分呢還是要讓經濟部或是能源主管單位他們來送這個相關的規劃給我們但是以目前我那時候算我們淨零入境的情況下的確它是一個選項但是它後面的包含的未來未知的費用還有核廢料還有安全性等等其實有很多的變數在那個地方"},{"start":8920.523,"end":8923.725,"text":"好那我請問一下我們經濟部今天有代表來喔好再麻煩一下那現在"},{"start":8936.263,"end":8964.678,"text":"我們大家全球都在發展AI那麼也知道AI它的用電量劇增那針對這部分用電量劇增我們要因應我們AI的時代那可是如果我們要達到減碳要環境保育又要讓我們這用電劇增我們來應付這個用電的問題那我們經濟部這部分有沒有什麼方法來處理好 跟委員報告一下"},{"start":8967.278,"end":8989.444,"text":"我先回答待會再請我們能源署的代表再做一個說明我想基本上我們對於這個AI的用電會增加部分我們已經有先事先規劃有一些發電量的這個部分是有配合除了這個以外供給面的部分是有在規劃那在那個減"},{"start":8991.184,"end":9009.59,"text":"這個節電的部分我們也在推這個深度節能讓這個我們的用電量是不是可以相對的可以減少我們的這個用電那能源署這邊是在做一個補充那以我們現在這樣子的方式我們現在這樣子的能源政策我們有辦法應付AI這麼大的用電量嗎"},{"start":9010.663,"end":9036.204,"text":"跟委員報告我們能源署每一年都會做電力供需的一個評估那AI的部分我們的產發署會跟業者做一個深切的瞭解半導體的產業我們也會把它估計去每一年大概在六月之前我們就會做一個供需報告所以AI的估計我們其實是有規劃進去的那整體的用電其實跟委員報告應該是沒有問題的 您放心"},{"start":9038.186,"end":9063.656,"text":"所以基本上我們現在要應付AI的用電巨增然後我們又要達到我們環境部我們要減碳又要環境保育等等問題你看連AIT美國在台協會鼓勵人處長他都有講我們台灣是高度仰賴外國進口能源那美國是最大的能源出口國那他也提供天然氣提供再生能源當然"},{"start":9065.177,"end":9084.472,"text":"他現在好像也說他能夠提供最新的核能技術來支援我們那我們以這幾個前提之下我請問一下彭部長那如果這樣你的看法如何我們要兼顧要減碳要環境保育然後又要達到我們用電量"},{"start":9085.132,"end":9109.912,"text":"達到AI這些的用電量矩陣那環境部的立場是怎麼樣報告委員環境部的立場就是更多這種低碳對環境好的能源我們都歡迎不過也跟委員報告我也關注美國新的核能的發展的動態例如說他們的新的SMR那個New Scale的核電廠他們已經追加預算到105億美金所以其實他只有發大概只有400多MW"},{"start":9110.572,"end":9124.205,"text":"所以其實這個的費用是很難估計的如果未來國際上像美國他們有更好更新的已經有商業化運轉的我們當然會歡迎但是目前台灣我們還是只能靠自己去做一個轉型的工作"},{"start":9126.001,"end":9153.333,"text":"那所以其實之前我們也做過以核氧綠的公投那有六成的民眾是支持那我們也現在看到其實我們整體燃煤燃氣再生能源其實他的發電量整體進度上我們看起來也是落後的所以其實這個新的核能技術如果能夠提供又達到我們之前公投以核氧綠的結果然後也可以讓我們減碳也可以"},{"start":9153.933,"end":9172.398,"text":"讓我們的環境保育工作可以做得更好那這一部分我倒覺得是不是我們可以來考量一下這一部分而且新的核能政策整體來講人家現在來講目前核能也是最好的綠能那這一部分彭部長你也贊同嗎"},{"start":9173.238,"end":9202.498,"text":"核能不是綠能核能是乾淨的能源可是目前來講它整體來講它碳排量應該是非常非常低但是其實也報告委員我對核能並沒有什麼任何立場我很務實在看但是現實就在眼前因為它在國際上新的核能發展的技術費用非常的高而且還不確定那另外一個是研議的成本也可能在這個裡面所以委員如果你們可以解決我當然這個是樂觀其成但是這個壓力會非常的大"},{"start":9203.278,"end":9224.97,"text":"所以其實以目前來講我們姑且不談我們目前的能源政策不講政治上的問題目前看起來如果這整體新的能源政策目前看起來如果說要應付這AI的時代用電矩增要達到減碳要達到環保整體來講目前這新的核能技術核能來講其實是一個蠻好的選項"},{"start":9226.551,"end":9242.966,"text":"包委員我們目前規劃2035的減碳目標是沒有把核能放進去的那當然未來如果有任何的改變或新技術當然是可以幫助但是我也特別提醒委員因為後面的成本還有引發性的這個社會上的這個不同的意見應該蠻大的也請委員都可以多考量"},{"start":9243.735,"end":9266.343,"text":"好那我也希望我們大家可以來務實推動這個能源的轉型我們要應付我們的用電量要兼顧這減碳要兼顧環保我覺得這部分我們大家像我們經濟部環境部應該針對這部分我們可以好好的思維一下怎麼應付我們後面所要面臨用電量巨增要兼顧減碳環保的問題好謝謝謝謝圍恩謝謝好謝謝圖緯謝謝部長"},{"start":9274.773,"end":9290.332,"text":"好 接下來請王正旭委員來做選擇好 謝謝主席還是邀請彭部長還有衛福部的市長 卓市長"},{"start":9300.359,"end":9315.053,"text":"謝謝部長今天早上告訴我們有關於每一年發揮100億以上的這個空屋的這些治理得到一些好的成果那當然我們還持續希望能夠有機會更改善我們也了解這個每一天每"},{"start":9316.354,"end":9343.391,"text":"時間都需要再呼吸這個空氣的品質對我們來講真的非常非常的重要不過今天的重點會把它放在相對是在室內的這些品質空氣的品質的部分我們也知道在民國100年的時候我們就通過室內空氣品質管理法這部法律那在101年就頒布了室內空氣品質標準那剛剛趙偉很關心那到底我們這個室內品質"},{"start":9344.992,"end":9360.258,"text":"在9項指標裡面有沒有符合標準我們發現的確我在9點28分的時候注意到我們的CO2濃度是1495那現在是1544那在一個小時之前更高到1700"},{"start":9361.658,"end":9385.825,"text":"那這個到底我們怎麼去感受這種品質的問題那我們也知道事實上目前有列管的場所包括有1186個地方是透過這個室內品質在做管控包括政府機構大學院校還有運動健身場所當然還包括醫療機構跟很多的社福機構那我們所看到的部分就是會擔心"},{"start":9387.586,"end":9402.306,"text":"尤其在COVID那段時間裡面大家對於這個室內的空調的部分呢是有非常高的要求希望能夠避免到室內的時候會因為這個空氣品質的關係而造成的影響"},{"start":9404.068,"end":9421.76,"text":"我們看到就是其實在台北市他們曾經在106年的時候就針對醫院室內的空氣品質超標的時候有一些處罰的案例那到了去年113年他們也針對不管是百貨公司或者是醫療機構去做了稽查"},{"start":9424.122,"end":9444.867,"text":"那也發現有一些醫院呢是有檢測超標的部分那這一部分當然我們也了解這個包括像我們剛剛所處理的措施就是讓這個空氣流通會更好不管是把這個窗戶打開啦或者是加強這個空調換氣的部分那這一部分將來有沒有機會"},{"start":9446.067,"end":9466.463,"text":"尤其是醫院的部分能夠透過兩個部會來看如何有一些專案的改善或者是必須要做哪一些措施才能夠讓醫院的這個空氣品質也能夠達到一些我們所期待的標準那這部分不知道部長或者是基深這邊有沒有什麼意見想要來做報告"},{"start":9466.863,"end":9493.143,"text":"好 報告委我先報告一下其實我們前一陣子去年跟委員報告我們主力徵集預算幫醫院做節能的部分當然我知道長庚醫院做的是最好的那有些醫院也在跟進當中那我們也媒合了受險業者能夠來進行這個投資就結合ASCO在做那這個現在在進行當中希望很快的就有幾件案例可以成真那因為這個是公營的他需要加額外的資金很多私營的他都願意來做"},{"start":9494.364,"end":9503.156,"text":"當他做這個ASCO節能的時候其實這個空瓶就會跟著去改善因為這個其實是很好的一個理由那另外一個是醫療的部分我們是不是請衛福部來做報告"},{"start":9506.892,"end":9534.14,"text":"確實我們在醫院的部分我們有配合這個環境部這邊推動一些計畫所以我們也針對醫院近鄰的這個部分我們陸續有做一些相關的宣導跟推動相關的計畫所以這個都會牽扯到經費所以很期待兩個部會可以有更緊密的結合讓這個經費除了去做監測以外也能夠讓這些經費能夠落實到在不同的這個場域來進行改善"},{"start":9535.3,"end":9551.865,"text":"我們目前經驗是民間的醫院、私立的醫院做的反而比公立的醫院來得積極因為公立的醫院要編列經費然後他有預算上的編定的限制還要公開招標所以對於ASCO的限制相對的就會多一點點所以我們現在在突破這一點"},{"start":9552.765,"end":9570.034,"text":"好 那就麻煩部長還有衛福這邊繼續努力謝謝那再下一個問題就是兒童醫院設立空品維護區的部分早上委員也有也有委員提過這個問題那目前我們了解在新竹"},{"start":9570.794,"end":9587.649,"text":"有成立的最新的一家兒童醫院那目前已經全台有將近六到即將成立甚至會到七家的兒童醫院那我們也了解這個兒童醫院大部分來就醫的當然都是以兒童為主那空氣品質維護區變成是一個很需要去"},{"start":9588.389,"end":9616.617,"text":"發生出來一個特定的區域那新竹市政府他們宣稱說新竹馬街的兒童醫院的發射呢是首次有這樣的這個要求讓這個品質可以更為穩定將來有沒有機會所有的兒童醫院都有這樣的這個維護區的這個設立不知道目前環境部或者是我們的衛福部有沒有這樣的計畫"},{"start":9618.317,"end":9646.205,"text":"報告委員能夠讓這種所謂的弱勢族群或是很敏感的族群能夠保護這是我們的目標那目前全台灣大概21個縣市大概有85個公民維護區這個都是地方環保局來做制定的那其實有的效果還不錯所以我們現在其實或許委員我們今年度可能我們跟衛福部一起合作來針對一些這種兒童醫院我們先來試行討論看看那再跟委員做報告這個的確是一個很好的方法"},{"start":9646.545,"end":9671.277,"text":"是因為的確依照空污法第40條這是地方政府的要擬定區劃分出這個空氣品質維護區不過環境部是要核定才能夠公告所以我們希望是不是兩個部會協同這個地方政府在三個月裡面給我們一個書面報告那我們看這個進度如何可以可以謝謝委員那我們就麻煩繼續努力"},{"start":9672.378,"end":9699.223,"text":"那再過來就是有關你這個國中小附近的空屋的部分那這部分也麻煩那個教育部是不是也有我們的官員在現場當然早上委員也有人請教過這個國中小附近的這個空屋的部分是跟這個學校附近它的一些經濟發展或者是一些相關的這個工業或者是其他場區的"},{"start":9700.743,"end":9712.914,"text":"影響是有關係這個部分我們也看到有一些媒體發現說全台172家的國中或國小他的附近的工廠在近五年裡面有違規"},{"start":9714.731,"end":9739.283,"text":"違反公務法被這個裁法的規定那另外也注意到說這個工廠都相距不到500公尺那這部分將來如何針對這個可能影響的這些兒童們做長期健康的追蹤或者是在教育部目前有沒有哪一些方案在協助讓這樣的這個違規可以減少同時對兒童的保護是有再加強的"},{"start":9740.454,"end":9754.368,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們部裡有那個健康促進方案那這部分我會請我們部裡的國教署來把這部分就是這172學校看是不是可以把它做一個長期的追蹤這部分我回去會請國教署來做一個處理謝謝委員關心這議題"},{"start":9758.452,"end":9785.488,"text":"報告委員其實這個東西因為台灣很地小人稠所以不是只有學校很多的民眾也住在工廠的旁邊所以這個問題應該是社區學校跟工廠之間要有一個更好的互動機制讓大家一起來改才有辦法那我們今年會努力找幾個案例來推看看因為其實有些地方我們看到有些地方經過大家的努力不是抗議啦是努力啦協調之後終於成功了"},{"start":9785.868,"end":9807.075,"text":"是我們其實是期待社區的各方面的能力可以加進來而不是說純粹用抗疫的方式去改善而已那最後一個問題就是有關於教室室內的品質空品的改善因為我們也知道這個教室裡面現在很多兒童包括是幼兒園或者是小學都會"},{"start":9808.715,"end":9834.364,"text":"大概很長的時間在教室裡面那台大醫院蘇教授他們也做了相關的研究發現說這個室內換氣不足的話呢在過去那個COVID那段時間其實真的是會影響這個新冠病毒這個傳染的風險而且高達三倍之多所以他們也建議說在這個室內的換氣的地方需要再加強除了說這個室內的一些"},{"start":9836.305,"end":9858.795,"text":"相關的消毒措施以外包括這種加裝抽風扇或者是其他的防疫措施可是這個就是需要費用未來未來在不管是幼兒園或者是小學這部分如果要加強這種空調或者是風扇的這些處理的話不曉得有沒有哪一些的措施正在設法改善中"},{"start":9859.426,"end":9884.651,"text":"跟委員也報告一下因為現在室內空氣品質的部分全國大概就是高中以下的學校大概有將近快1萬所那目前不理就是跟地方政府還有學校就是以推動那個示範學校就是自主標章這部分來做管理那像大專的話他是全面都要納管那高中以下的部分目前大概有像幼兒園的部分大概有150個學校達到優良和"},{"start":9888.793,"end":9891.919,"text":"就是它達到符合的這樣空氣品質標準的規定我們會再把這部分再持續的擴大讓幼兒園的學生能夠有一個乾淨呼吸的空氣品質"},{"start":9901.535,"end":9927.005,"text":"跟委員報告一下這部分部理會持續來追蹤這部分我還是需要跟地方政府和學校來做一個溝通因為其實如果學校學校要符合這空氣品比較髒他的規範還蠻嚴格他需要專責人員那像幼兒園他人數少他如果要設置專責人員他需要額外另外一筆經費這部分我們跟環保環境部一起來討論一下怎麼樣適合推動到幼兒園的部分來做相關的一些規劃和計劃謝謝委員關心這議題"},{"start":9930.947,"end":9951.714,"text":"好謝謝葉報委員這其實我看到那個其實我也很有感啦也建議貴院立法院也能夠以身作則能夠改善一下啊其實包含節電空氣品質改善這個要大家一起做啦對其實我最後想要請教部長就是我們的這個CO2到底室內它的這個最低標準是多少"},{"start":9952.334,"end":9977.739,"text":"八小時要一千嘛八小時平均一千我們是超標啦會覺得昏昏欲睡所以為了昭緯的健康為了我們144同仁的健康還有為了大家在這個室內的健康我們很期待至少我們這個801相關的這部分是不是能夠做一些有效措施來改善好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝王委員 謝謝部長部長剛剛特別提到"},{"start":9982.922,"end":9991.82,"text":"請貴院就請藝術組組長反映一下本院已經出問題了再這樣下去很多委員跟我們的"},{"start":9993.413,"end":10019.864,"text":"相關的工部門的人員都會因為這種空氣品質導致昏昏欲睡意識效率會不彰官員打詢也會混沌不清國家就會沒有未來了好那接下來我們請林淑雯委員來做宣導那也在此做以下宣告目前收到臨時提案共有5萬那待會請待會林淑雯委員質詢結束之後我們就要進行處理好請"},{"start":10029.755,"end":10032.465,"text":"好 謝謝主席是不是請我們彭部長來 請部長"},{"start":10037.438,"end":10062.831,"text":"林委員好部長好其實大家今天談很多但我想要談一個制度面的就想要跟你討論一下這個消費性產品的VOCS排放你的管制工具不足那其實這樣的空瓶跟國人健康是更是息息相關的這個制度面那大家都知道非花信那個"},{"start":10063.991,"end":10092.591,"text":"挥发性有机化合物就VOCS是形成臭氧和PM2.5的重要的前驱物质它会导致空气品质恶化也会严重的危害国人的健康但是呢如果我们不要讲固定污染源和移动污染源我们扣除了固定污染源和移动污染源那根据你们自己的说法和统计"},{"start":10093.351,"end":10109.642,"text":"消費性的商品含有VOCS的排放量一年大概有18.7萬噸但是很驚人的這樣的排放量你看它是佔我國VOCS排放總量的41%這是你們最新的數據41%"},{"start":10112.123,"end":10122.701,"text":"那換句話說它已經是成為就你們這一張圖來看它是成為我國VOCS排放量的最大來源之一超過許多的工業"},{"start":10124.181,"end":10129.684,"text":"污染源的排放也超過了這個移動污染源你看這張表它就是獨樹一格那消費性的商品包括我們大家 隔節都跟個人消費行為有關法膠 清潔產品 噴漆 黏著劑 發香劑 建物的塗料等等"},{"start":10143.872,"end":10160.389,"text":"所以它是跟人民的生活息息相關的緊密的聯合在一起的而且它對個人的健康的風險影響也非常大的而且大多數都是在室內使用的所以呢每年使用這麼大量的上億個的這樣的消費性的商品累計造成的這個不良的影響非常的驚人"},{"start":10165.814,"end":10184.3,"text":"那如果講環境的話這個人健康影響非常大那講環境我剛剛講了它就是臭氧還有PM2.5的重要的前驅物質所以它也是我國空氣品質不良的主要污染物之一可是你們管制了什麼保電有靈觀這下"},{"start":10185.956,"end":10204.429,"text":"包委員其實這個問題我去年年底的時候剛好去東京看一個展看到日本的東京都他就針對這個VOC有一個非常大的攤位就是剛剛委員對啦看這個展以後對你的影響是什麼對你們在政策上的回饋是什麼我隨即就有跟我們大氣師在討論那目前來看的話我們是針對這個塗料的"},{"start":10208.852,"end":10229.929,"text":"非灰性的這個VOC的進行一個管制但是我們發現還有生活還有很多例如說我們噴髮膠等等的都有在裡面你這樣講當然講得很好聽就是說你們現在目前納管的就是建物還有工業維護塗料中的三類別和五種塗料你們訂出了VOC成分的限職規定"},{"start":10231.75,"end":10257.303,"text":"那包括室內的牆壁啦天花板用的塗料啦和室外的牆壁用的塗料就是你們分類裡面的C1 C2還有C3這種類別但是這樣子有限的管制措施你們的預期可以達到多少的排放量的目標管制你知道嗎包委員就是你上面說的他大概佔了大概十幾二十幾左右沒有啦"},{"start":10258.618,"end":10269.105,"text":"沒有到那麼高因為我說消費性的這一個總排放量是18.7萬噸消費性商品可是你的管制起來你們預期達到的是18.7萬你這樣預期的管制目標只有2000噸"},{"start":10276.67,"end":10299.496,"text":"佔建物塗料VOCS排放量的6%然後離有效控制消費性商品VOCS排放量的目標相去甚遠更令人擔心的是我們知道這裡面佔最多比的是一般和其他消費性商品而不只是你這裡管制的工業和建物使用的塗料"},{"start":10300.316,"end":10313.901,"text":"更多的是跟人民洗洗相關的消費性商品像液體清潔劑法用的化妝品空氣清新劑這種管制的速度非常的慢而且沒有具體的管制標準保證"},{"start":10317.105,"end":10329.891,"text":"這樣要怎麼辦?因為這個問題我有去跟我們同仁討論過第一個是他的項目非常非常的多元而且是整個體系要去做一個很大的改變所以我們也在真的在蒐集資料說例如說日本是怎麼管制的"},{"start":10333.473,"end":10350.504,"text":"我先就建物塗料的管制來就教育你因為你已經選擇了也要優先從建物塗料開始優先去管啊但是你的管理的制度根本是市場導向而不是基於健康環境和科學的數據"},{"start":10351.843,"end":10366.959,"text":"你人家問你說你是不是經濟部的小弟啊你說你不是小弟可是我們來看你到底是不是小弟從制度面來檢驗嘛你們在108年上8月你還沒上任就公告了建物及工業維護塗料"},{"start":10369.261,"end":10385.208,"text":"揮發性有機物的充分標準你們第一階段就是優先要針對CNS15080CNS都有標準啦不過它是一個參考而不是一個強制性的嘛那在這個裡面CNS裡面CNS158012類的塗料種類你只要納 你現在只納管ABC"},{"start":10391.61,"end":10399.436,"text":"然後現在這個DEF這種你通通都沒有有沒有CNS的12類塗料的種類 玉琴有沒有OK 沒關係你只納管了室內牆壁 室內天花板還有室外牆壁用塗料其他的DEFG就是這些通通沒有都沒有納管然後造成大量的VOCS排放到大氣當中那你們委外有研究報告喔"},{"start":10417.89,"end":10424.136,"text":"除了D,D類就是室內外的木器、金屬、塑膠用的修飾和保護塗料還有F,F就是你們室內外最小模後木材著色料I單一型塗料K多彩塗料L裝飾效果塗料"},{"start":10437.748,"end":10448.148,"text":"Anyway這些都是建物的這個12大類的塗料建物和工業使用的這個塗料你們的管制是這樣子管制的來看一下"},{"start":10449.773,"end":10474.161,"text":"你們的水溶性塗料含量你們是去做市場調查喔這些數據歷年來檢測數據統計是去做後市場調查就現有的市場去收集資料收集資料看得出來你們要研擬一個限值的管制你們最右欄VOC的含量限值建議指你們未來想要的管制方法"},{"start":10474.941,"end":10480.624,"text":"你去市場收集 比如說第一它第75個 百分之75都是69的單位了那你就會建議說 那我就定為70市場目前69 大多數都69 我就定70市場大部分都是514第二欄 我就建議500那你看一下 如果市場大部分都是692"},{"start":10503.496,"end":10521.397,"text":"那你就想說 你就趨近於CNS標準變500就是一類的 溶劑型的然後你再看 你定的標準就是G類的溶劑型的市場75%都是668你就定了一個450 跟CNS標準一樣"},{"start":10522.472,"end":10543.626,"text":"我們的意思是什麼意思是說 你其實是就市場 牽制於市場然後頂多是訂到CNS標準那你看歐盟的標準 這些歐盟的標準你們其實遠遠的落後於歐盟的標準看得出來啦 其實都是牽制於這個市場標準"},{"start":10545.714,"end":10572.032,"text":"那你們在研擬未來D到L的這些VOS限值的時候都是用市場的產品現況來決定你的限值要怎麼定如果這樣的規劃裡面其實你是在反映市場趨勢而不是實際健康的風險你是就市場的這個數據而不是基於健康需求也不是基於環境需求而不是實際的風險上的需求"},{"start":10574.266,"end":10591.467,"text":"所以你到底是不是經濟部的小弟這樣的做法來讓產業決定標準而不是透過健康數據和科學的數據和環境的需求來決定標準這難道不是對公共健康的妥協嗎"},{"start":10593.249,"end":10611.284,"text":"這難道不是落入人家對你質疑的是不是經濟部的小弟的這個問號嗎所以你對D類到L類這些塗料的產品VOCS的含量標準你雖然是建議人家委外他是建議你這樣訂你會不會這樣訂還是一個問號喔搞不好你訂的會比委外的建議值還要更寬鬆"},{"start":10620.032,"end":10634.962,"text":"第一個 你到底要不要訂 你要期程會是怎麼訂那什麼時候可以完成全面的這個建物和工業塗料的這個維護的這些管制限職的公告你們大概會是怎麼期程去規劃"},{"start":10636.601,"end":10656.115,"text":"報告委員 這個是一個計畫啦我還沒有看到這個數字對啊 遙遙無期啦你們建議要訂的這個數字我們已經很不滿意了這個是配合產業需求去建議的喔我們已經很不滿意喔但是還是遙遙無期不一定會訂啊現在D到L是零沒有規定 沒有規定 零規定所以現在問你 你到底要不要規定你的起承會是什麼"},{"start":10666.258,"end":10671.856,"text":"包委因為我還沒有看到這個報告那這個未來是一定會定的未來是未來多久啊未來"},{"start":10676.511,"end":10701.044,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們初步規劃是會先針對DEF的部分在今年來DEF那你們的標準會照建議的還是還會更寬鬆跟委員報告因為現在資料在收集我們還在討論當中這個都已經幫你們收集市場上的產品都是這樣子的了你們是配合市場產品的數據去定限值的啊"},{"start":10702.311,"end":10714.361,"text":"那個是委外計畫 我知道啊 人家委外研究就去做後市場查驗了 去看了啊那你DEF以外的GHIJKL呢 所以你們是沒有看法保證你今天在這裡回答都沒有及格 沒有擔當 沒有破例 沒有承諾"},{"start":10724.284,"end":10744.736,"text":"但以前都沒工喔沒有沒有 這個是委外的研究計畫我還沒有看到這個數字然後VOC的管制是我未來一定會做的但是我們真的報告委員好 這個只是建物和工業塗料那我要再問你一般性消費產品喔完全沒有管制喔 連排放量都沒有掌握喔消費性商品喔這個消費性商品"},{"start":10751.158,"end":10776.092,"text":"我剛剛還有一個更重要的數據但是因為我的表格在講的話會拖更多時間我就算我先講一般消費性商品好了這個液體清潔劑 乏用化妝品 空氣清新劑它具有化學活性這種VOCS都具有化學活性在強烈的日照和氮氧化物存在下會進行一連串的光化反應而產生臭氧還有過氧硝酸 乙烯脂"},{"start":10776.432,"end":10797.354,"text":"就是PAN等二次污染物不但使得空氣品質惡化以外還會刺激呼吸系統導致各種不利健康的影響而且還可能降低這個能見度其實對個人的健康風險其實影響很大那還有這種揮發性的化學物質的揮發有機物的排放量資料為管制重要的工作基礎"},{"start":10798.095,"end":10821.447,"text":"那你只有唯有掌握了這一些排放量你才有辦法討論到如何進行管制那了解了這一些排放量的主要貢獻產品類別和品項很重要還可以作為減量效益的這個估算的基礎可是沒有母法授權現在也沒有辦法沒有強制申報和登錄那你們知道一年的大概多少排放量你們調查的出來嗎"},{"start":10822.831,"end":10842.666,"text":"委員這個是我們現在正在處理的啦所以再給我一點時間你們的委外的資料也沒有啊你現在有委外嗎沒有啊有委外的也沒有啊有母法授權嗎沒有啊報告委員目前有委託工業技術研究院在進行相關的調查跟蒐集什麼時候開始委託的什麼時候結案報告委員去年開始去年預計什麼時候結案多少經費"},{"start":10854.173,"end":10861.477,"text":"你提供給我 你現在講不出來我告訴你 隨便在這裡虛以為疑 立違青菜公我有在做啊這樣講一句話很簡單的啦但是問你比較詳細的 你就說不出來了啦其實有做沒做不知道啦報告在哪裡不知道啦沒關係 我幫你看一句話你同不同意建立含有VOCS化學製品排放量的申報制度"},{"start":10877.725,"end":10892.335,"text":"我同意你同意好那你自己就好好的進行規劃你說去年去看了然後看起來好像很有感然後好像你要進行管制了你也同意要申報制度了可是我就等著看你什麼時候做因為國際都已經在要加嚴管理台灣卻連開始都還沒有開始現在連盤點連估算到底有多少申報多少量都不知道製造多少量輸入多少量不知道什麼都不知道"},{"start":10904.904,"end":10914.209,"text":"那現在加州的這個一般的VOCS的消費性商品包括這些東西它對現行標準對空氣清淨劑的VOCS含量限制為20到30%而且PY在2023年它在2023年就下降到10%2031年預計要進一步的降到5%然後髮妝用的定型噴霧劑"},{"start":10929.218,"end":10958.157,"text":"之前是55那未來要降到2023年就降到了502031年要降到45%那美國的EPA他1996年也就開始管制然後到2013年制定很多他們都很積極的在管制管制的方式就是透過製造商輸入商經銷商要遵守特定的VOCS的含量限值在這種狀況裡面其實美國都已經在用而且他們訂出很具體說我一年要減少幾萬噸"},{"start":10959.658,"end":10976.209,"text":"很具體所以在這種狀況裡面你要委外的研究裡面其實你們的VOCS的成分我們看那個髮妝用品的部分還有這個空氣清新劑全部都超標全部都超過國外的標準因為台灣沒有標準嘛"},{"start":10976.909,"end":10995.574,"text":"那你們在研擬這個標準的時候也沒有積極的對接到國際標準你們還是以廠商現有的技術能力市場既有的產品然後為基準去訂出遠低於國際標準的鬆散法規那像這個"},{"start":10997.168,"end":11007.993,"text":"清潔劑的使用你去看環境部把它分成加壓式和一般式而你看你們去市場檢測就是這個紫色的實際檢測最大值然後最大值最上面你們就定出你們你預計可能想要的他委託的單位建議你們的就是四正方形的紅色的格子格子狀的然後你們定的標準你定的標準都遠比於"},{"start":11025.902,"end":11044.875,"text":"加州的、美國的、香港的都還要更寬鬆許多看起來環境部沒有因應健康需求沒有因應環境需求的或是國際標準而是以業者技術做不到現有的市場產品就是這種標準略低於現有的市場的產品直接評估將標準定在這種30WT的percent所以更無視於國際更嚴格的規定"},{"start":11055.642,"end":11061.89,"text":"這個是清潔劑你看下一個是空氣清新劑你同樣的沒有以國際標準為依據都還是就市場現有的產品然後產品的現況訂出一個建議的標準"},{"start":11072.103,"end":11076.947,"text":"然後去折衷就以實際檢測的75%的數據將標準定成80WT而不是參照國際趨勢去加嚴我最後要說你這樣子委外的單位跟你建議的"},{"start":11092.148,"end":11112.835,"text":"你這樣的標準制定方式都不是基於健康和環境需求就是單純的配合業者的能力讓現有的產品都不必大幅的修改就能通過檢驗結果導致了台灣的VOCS的管制遠遠落後國際連基本的門檻都沒有辦法提升"},{"start":11113.575,"end":11138.514,"text":"它影響了我們剛剛講清潔的空氣清新劑的不是只有危害到這個是戶外空氣品質它這個都在室內而且不太容易易散國人平均有80%到90%的時間都是在室內而建築工業塗料它這個是在戶外居多但是建築塗料也一大部分都是在室內屋頂的牆面的"},{"start":11141.744,"end":11165.189,"text":"所以這個大家國際的經驗告訴你說這種消費線產品都在室內不容易易散第二個 這一種管制必須是全面且系統性的管制才能有效所以我們在這種狀況不管制 不納管對個人健康影響很大我在最後問你就是說你擴大管制 加強管制 跟國際標準對接你有沒有這樣的計畫 部長"},{"start":11166.906,"end":11183.618,"text":"包委員這個是我們我去年去完了之後就跟同仁討論去東京剛好看到東京都在做這個事啦然後我有特別交代然後他們其實這個委員提供的資料是我們委外的一個計畫從你們委外的計畫來看就知道已經夠糟"},{"start":11184.298,"end":11199.894,"text":"沒有那個是委外計畫做不是我們做啊所以你的意思是說你訂的標準會比委外計畫訂的更嚴格囉這個我們會來研議好不好但我不是要問你嚴格的問題我問你期程啊你不要告訴我說你未來會做結果你下台了還沒做"},{"start":11202.608,"end":11225.92,"text":"我們擔心的是這個啊你是不是要針對消費性產品VLCS管制你有沒有短中長期的計畫五年內你有沒有要多少消費性產品類別要納管你預期有沒有設定一個減量的目標和效益委員再給我們一點時間內部討論可以嗎好那我下次問你顯然就應該要有答案了"},{"start":11226.94,"end":11229.442,"text":"我第一次拋出這個議題,你說你還沒有看過,那我就讓你有點時間去準備可以,沒問題,謝謝委員現在來處理臨時提案,既有五案請一併宣讀"},{"start":11244.448,"end":11272.713,"text":"第一案有鑒於環境部官方報告最新於一一三年度顯示出我國有三十七座淨水廠驗出致癌及增加萃死機率的PFAS物質考量於罰還上路期乃預告三年後的一一六年七月才開始期間實為免罰空窗期原此特要求環境部因演繹加速管理事後並於二個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告"},{"start":11273.433,"end":11288.849,"text":"提案人委員陳金輝如現已呈招資第二案有鑑於我國某科技大學最新受檢驗出飲用水供水中乃含有劇毒且致癌本物質並超標64倍是以為求公眾健康之完整維護"},{"start":11289.81,"end":11305.175,"text":"特決議因最速辦理採儲對象與所在位置周知作業並限期於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交應儲與改善進度報告提案人委員陳金輝 盧憲一 陳昭芝第三案"},{"start":11305.675,"end":11332.284,"text":"有鑒於當前環境部對於中央空氣污染防治業務多以PM2.5及O3為關注之指標污染物是以考量當前空氣作為新興污染物質之介質在即時監測並公開與防治上應在與加強原要求應限期於二個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交改善書面報告提案人委員陳金輝 盧憲一 陳昭姿第四案"},{"start":11332.924,"end":11349.411,"text":"考量飲用水管理條例自91年以來未有修訂當中諸多處罰之內容乃沿用86年所修訂之規範應積極改善原此特要求應限期於一個月內啟動修法研議作業事後並於二個月內"},{"start":11350.291,"end":11364.813,"text":"後向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝如現已呈招資第五案有鑒於環境部隊我國飲用水的簡易自來水包含社區自設公共集水設備在內"},{"start":11365.874,"end":11391.594,"text":"整整於一一三年期間的抽驗結果照官方統計數據顯示竟只有204件原此特要求限期於一個月內完成加強查驗機制之啟動並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝盧憲一陳焦姿宣讀完畢好我們現在出原始提案那應該這五萬都有"},{"start":11393.05,"end":11421.213,"text":"都有跟提案委員溝通過好那我們是不是一個案說明一下第一案沒問題第一案沒問題照委員的意見辦理第二案也沒有問題遵照委員辦理那第三案也沒有問題遵照委員的意見辦理那第四案也沒有問題第四案要說明對不對沒有沒有也沒有問題遵照委員辦理那第五案有一點我們第五案說明一下跟委員報告"},{"start":11422.654,"end":11448.876,"text":"我們每年都會依照飲用水管理條例跟這個飲用水會訂立一個飲用水的一個重點稽查起地計畫我們以113年為例我們自來水就查驗了1.2萬件然後另外飲用水設備也查驗了7000件那至於簡易自來水呢我們查驗了204件最主要原因是因為我們有公告列管所謂的簡易自來水他是要達到一定的規模包含就是100戶500人以上的設有這個廢水處理設施的設備"},{"start":11451.198,"end":11478.04,"text":"那所以基本上這樣子的簡易自來水目前列管有43處那我們查了204件基本上幾乎一年就查驗了五次平均一個簡易自來水設施就查驗了五次所以基本上不是沒有查驗那這個部分我們是不是建議文字做這樣子的一個修正那是不是在那個第三行照官方統計數據顯示然後加這些字 加什麼字呢就是達公告列管簡易自來水秋驗禁止有204件"},{"start":11480.361,"end":11491.407,"text":"當中更有九個縣市我們建議加幾個文字就是因吳達公告列管檢疫自來水設施檢驗宿掛零掛零之後這個逗號開始到第五行的句號我們建議刪除"},{"start":11498.67,"end":11513.26,"text":"為什麼這樣說就是因為基本上我們是定有相關的這個重點稽查協定計畫而且有獨島縣市環保局辦理稽查所以我們是不是把這些文字刪掉但是呢我們是不是這樣子延遲呢特提案要求限期一個月內提供"},{"start":11514.22,"end":11538.554,"text":"極加強完成兩個字把它刪除我們會再來檢討這個簡易自來水的一個管理那進一步的呢再來做相關的這個跟簡易自來水法的主管機關包括水利署因為水利署那邊也有一個無自來水就是使用簡易自來水的相關的一個改善計畫我們會跟他一起來做協調是不是我們建議以上文字的修正就是特提案要求一個頁內"},{"start":11539.514,"end":11552.949,"text":"提供及加強查驗機制那這啟動了我們是不是建議那三個字也刪除那並向衛環委員會提交書面報告我們一個月內我們來找水利署再來針對簡易自來水的管理做一些相關的一些檢討以上報告"},{"start":11555.182,"end":11574.618,"text":"同意 可以啦 好那提案委員也同意 那各位有沒有其他意見那如果沒有 那我們第一關就照這樣修正後來通過那一到四案 應該大家都沒有意見嘛那我們就照提案委員的這樣的提案來通過好 那臨時提案全部處理完畢 接下來我們繼續來進行詢問我們請麥議員來做詢問"},{"start":11590.849,"end":11607.983,"text":"謝謝主席 有請環境部部長環境部目前運行的空瓶監測系統已經有很多年了"},{"start":11609.502,"end":11636.789,"text":"但是臺灣的PM2.5濃度還是一樣偏高委員不會喔我們從8年前大概平均20降到12.8去年12.8是嗎對但是我們根據環環境部的統計就是臺灣的部分地區年度啦經營PM2.5濃度能超過世界衛生組織在7歐的最新標準"},{"start":11637.409,"end":11652.385,"text":"所以請問部長你覺得說環境部你覺得是這樣子的你覺得是比較減少的話今天就不會排來去質詢所以說我們的定期檢討還有現行的監測點的數據是準確的嗎"},{"start":11656.509,"end":11677.32,"text":"如果準確的話為什麼會有這樣不準確是準確性的嗎不好委員手動跟自動本來就不一樣的東西例如說委員你在對我說那個數據有準確嗎當然準確我們是按照一個法規自動跟手動的定義就不一樣我舉例例如說我們在浴室裡面我們要洗熱水澡一打開有水蒸氣那個水蒸氣呢就PM2.5就會超標因為水分子"},{"start":11681.162,"end":11701.842,"text":"濕度會讓小微粒變大變成PM2.5可是事實上有沒有計畫增加就是各個點比較偵測密度比較高的地方有沒有增加我們有比較好一點的很嚴格的堅定例如說自動跟手動的這個其實它的費用是很高的那很多那種所謂的IoT"},{"start":11702.542,"end":11715.768,"text":"這種自動型的那個便宜比較便宜可能就幾千塊一萬塊的那個可以再多因為一個是看趨勢一個看實質上的量那我們還我們國家目前還是以手動的監測因為他比有比較好的科學方法的論證會比較好"},{"start":11717.86,"end":11746.674,"text":"但是我們看到的是不是你講的那麼完美所以我們除了就是監測數據問題之外還有過去我們看到的有企業有很多企業違反就是空屋房子的法規但是罰款就是比較偏低就導致就是違反成本比較低所以環境成本也比較沒辦法達成就是大家都遵守"},{"start":11747.675,"end":11760.524,"text":"所以我們環境部對於這樣子的企業是否有強力的監管的措施或者是提高他們的罰款才能就是減少空污"},{"start":11762.591,"end":11778.741,"text":"有嗎包委員這個我上任之後對於這種所謂的偷牌或是不實數據都是重罰的所以我也不知道有沒有注意到我們幾個月前我們曾經罰了一個漁船一個港啊大概一千多萬所以其實委員那個那個其實費用是很高的"},{"start":11779.684,"end":11805.564,"text":"費用很高為什麼還是一樣很多的空屋還有很多的企業就當然是說那個如石化鋼鐵還有就是燃燒發電等還有一些空屋的重要的來源還是一樣是沒辦法去改善才會造成現在的空屋所以我們台中空屋最嚴重了"},{"start":11807.205,"end":11829.324,"text":"委員其實我找到報告裡面有一張是我們所有的污染物的來源其實你說的是固定污染源也有移動污染源還有各種的污染源都在裡面那其實要大家改善一起改善才有辦法做得到所以剛才我們委員就是質詢了快要半個小時但是你要說去參加別人的"},{"start":11830.765,"end":11856.301,"text":"參加日本的所以我看到日本的VOC的管制很特別很特別但是我們要去考察就是看到別人要回來自己要改進或者是有一個措施來去製作要去規定嘛還有就是說一些企業我們就是要去罰款還有是要去溝通還有如何就是減少這樣子的空氣汙染"},{"start":11857.842,"end":11879.753,"text":"所以我們不是說我們去人家餓了自己放來沒辦法我們很積極的在處理規劃這個事情但是其實一個很例如說剛剛講的VOC其實它涉及到民生所有的產品委員你每天在用的噴髮膠等等全部都有要管制其實這個要方法的不然的話你的方法是什麼"},{"start":11880.393,"end":11903.82,"text":"我們正在規劃當中都是每次執行都是規劃中執行中討論中我們是正在進行當中都沒有真正的是這個一個明確的措施沒有沒有委員我們其實很多事情都積極的在推動當中但是有些事情涉及到很多的部會這真的要需要一些時間來做溝通要準備好才能夠推出來"},{"start":11904.704,"end":11926.379,"text":"好所以準備好也不知道準備到什麼時候所以我們希望說在我們的未來是不是有計劃加速燃煤電廠的檢排設備還有可不可以是升級還有說可不可以就是淘汰就是高污染的發電廠這樣子的話是不是可以重啟核電呢"},{"start":11933.959,"end":11950.01,"text":"有沒有這樣子的可能報告委員其實燃煤電廠當然舊的燃煤電廠它基本上是污染很嚴重但是如果它把CCS或是各種的空污減排做下去其實它也可以乾淨的但是我們還是希望由煤轉氣而是我們看到現在澳洲各國都是重新就是核電但是我們政府的錯誤政策讓我們的全民買單"},{"start":11962.44,"end":11964.383,"text":"現在下個月又說可能會漲電價所以看起來是非常不可我們的部長是不是承諾跟我們的人民說我們不會去漲價"},{"start":11974.175,"end":11978.858,"text":"這個電價不是我主管的我不能夠承諾這個事情啊對啊你沒有辦法承諾但是你們也要是真的是有跨部會來去來去協助來去討論才有說現在我們這邊的空氣汙染啊所有影響到大家就是頭腦鈍鈍啊問問不好回答也會不會回答這樣子啊是不是所以我們希望說我們是沒辦法漲價但是我們要去把關還有政策要"},{"start":12003.596,"end":12014.125,"text":"準確性不管是室內室外還有我們的汽車交通全部我們要希望大家要來去買電動車但是我們又沒有設備集權所以我們的空氣又在污染"},{"start":12021.631,"end":12037.587,"text":"這個部分我們也是要去跨部會來去討論不是說我們再問到我們的環境部交通部經濟部大家都說我們要去問其他部還是怎麼樣我們各部會都請大家民間要"},{"start":12040.429,"end":12050.657,"text":"聯合要是共同就是橫向來去討論但是我們各部會自己做自己的所以到最後說我們再來去問我們再來去討論所以不知道到民國幾年"},{"start":12055.66,"end":12069.586,"text":"所以我們希望我們台灣的空氣品質不關於是民眾的健康每天我們都是用就是空清氣的費來去吸這樣子的空氣所以我們希望說我們的空氣要好別人才會進來我們台灣來去投資還有移民還有居住這邊這安全所以我們交通的污染也是沒有去"},{"start":12084.11,"end":12090.536,"text":"去跨部會經濟部很多中小企業跟我們的環境部也沒有辦法去連結所以我們希望跨部會來去連結有一個具體的計畫讓我們知道說我們今年我們預算已經在補助了但是呢都沒有去有計畫怎麼去執行"},{"start":12108.594,"end":12117.858,"text":"現在都在去炒說什麼上預算但是有的預算為什麼沒有去規劃來去做呢還有我們是沒有我們的立法院沒有去說去上預算我們在今年我們年初的時候我們去審預算在"},{"start":12131.544,"end":12152.803,"text":"4年的预算我们还没有省大家也是花光了对不对所以现在我们希望各部会真正的回到自己的岗位把自己该做的要来去规划跨部会来去讨论如何才会让我们的人民住的安心住的健康"},{"start":12153.843,"end":12159.245,"text":"所以這個部分希望我們的部長在空屋治理行動計畫要三個月內可不可以提出來讓我們來做參考說你真正的來去做"},{"start":12168.728,"end":12173.332,"text":"我們不想聽到各部會都說我們再來討論我們回去再檢討我們再來去做我希望說我們要提出具體的真正的去改善空氣的品質讓我們國民享受更健康生活的環境可以嗎"},{"start":12188.784,"end":12215.842,"text":"包委我們現在正在做的就是空品的白皮書為了未來五年整個我們空品改善策略第三期管制策略如何做得更好所以我們到時候下個月如果完成之後我們會再給委員請委員指教所以說下個月你就會你可以提出具體的計畫給我們不用三個月一個白皮書你現在就可以提出了我們正在努力在做就是等你提出具體的計畫真正的去執行"},{"start":12218.744,"end":12220.165,"text":"謝謝主席 一起各位先進有請環境部的彭部長請部長"},{"start":12246.967,"end":12251.573,"text":"賴委員好部長你好部長知道我們台灣的癌網是哪一個癌知道嗎肺癌肺癌對跟你有關係喔環境影響很大女生比男生多女生你不抽菸"},{"start":12267.042,"end":12276.739,"text":"啊怎麼會這樣子你剛才一提到有個事情我突然先一個小問題先請教你喔就是說熱水一開的時候那時候PM2.5很高對"},{"start":12278.16,"end":12305.291,"text":"所以是不是有必要在我們的這個什麼頭啊就是那個敞篷頭裡面要過水加一個過濾的有沒有用啊 加一個過濾有沒有用報告委員那個是濕度讓我們空氣中更小的微粒長大變成PM2.5所以基本上那種我們家裡面多數家裡的空氣品質是好的但是因為濕度的關係讓PM2.5增多但是那個其實對我們身體是沒有危害的"},{"start":12307.64,"end":12332.087,"text":"所以我們家不家那個什麼field沒有關係沒有用因為我們家裡面本來沒有比較少所以委員剛剛你提到的說為什麼婦女因為我們家裡面台灣的習慣蒸煮炒炸例如說那樣的生活習慣在家裡面廚房的PM2.5其實也很高的所以其實我們家裡面很多的生活也會造成女性相對的比例會高一點所以你會鼓勵我們的這個婦女同胞少自己煮多點外賣"},{"start":12333.728,"end":12343.303,"text":"不是我們的作息的方式例如說煮菜的方式可以轉變因為我們的如果是雜煎的回來看一下世界最大的排碳國是哪幾個國家"},{"start":12344.987,"end":12372.863,"text":"呃中國第一名中國第二名美國第三名呃應該是印度印度這三個國而且這兩年印度跟中國大陸啊增加的很多那現在川普退出巴黎協定啊請問什麼時候生效呃大概還要一年多的時間一年因為過去這時候要一講要退出是三年了喔那大概這一次大概一年所以我們可以大概大家expect大概差不多"},{"start":12373.803,"end":12392.74,"text":"今年底或是到明年初他會退出是不是對但是他的退出因為這個UFCCC他本來就是一個自我的承諾自己的要求那他們過去呢這個拜登總統也提出了美國的新的NDC他要減60%等於是跟2005年相比所以目前未來美國到底怎麼走我們也還在觀察"},{"start":12393.1,"end":12404.575,"text":"可是現在一來的話大家都看得到啊這個巴黎協定本來說二兩千兩千一百年現在是二零二五兩千一百年全球plus1.5度以內"},{"start":12408.246,"end":12430.253,"text":"這個大概普攻了吧氣候融資中斷了對貧窮國家拜登政府啊對貧窮國家提供一百一十億美金的融資也會中斷這些數據都對吧第一個是1.5度應該是失守了1.5是失守了但可能會到兩度到三度兩度到三度暗熱死"},{"start":12432.354,"end":12451.932,"text":"當然對目前依照各個國家的減碳的路徑還是沒有辦法到鎖到一點呼吸那川普的退出協定會不會使這個雪上加霜更plus上去會不會應該會讓這個速度喔等於是說減碳的速度慢下來然後第二個是說我們的極端事件會持續的在增加"},{"start":12452.992,"end":12480.999,"text":"這個會不會讓某種程度讓電動汽車的市場會稍微差一點以美國現在就是這個樣子現在那個不一樣了Tesla那個是因為很多人現在歐盟其實是恨美國的關稅的問題啊而且恨那個那個Elon Musk那個是另外一件事所以連帶影響他的銷售量這個影響是可能更大而不是這個原因我認為跟這個原因的影響度沒那麼大"},{"start":12481.659,"end":12488.791,"text":"報告委員因為這個其實川普也改變了任何的對於這種環保車輛各種的補助這個也是原因之一啦"},{"start":12489.46,"end":12513.14,"text":"所以就更加沒有希望了1.5度已經破功了確定破功因為這是全球加起來例如說以中國來說的話它是2060年才要宣布淨零那個印度是2070年那我們什麼時候可以淨零我們現在是20我們當然是原的目標當然是2050年可以要希望達到淨零嘛那我們現在未來定到2035年希望可以減最多38加減2"},{"start":12517.093,"end":12541.676,"text":"李遠哲前院長李遠哲院長說2050年絕對不可能淨零啦他這樣講欸你要不要挑戰一下包委員其實這個就是一個理想啦如果我們沒有一個淨零的目標我們現在就不用做了嘛所以就這樣我們一個理想一個目標所以你也同意李遠哲講到2050年達不到淨零啦對台灣來講非常辛苦因為這要別的工具請問美國2050年能不能達到淨零"},{"start":12543.237,"end":12561.881,"text":"美國有機會喔有機會台灣沒有機會台灣因為我們的這個地小人稠我們沒有那麼多負擔的這個量所以的確算是給你你又不是這樣回答你就說只要我彭某人當部長就有機會不會不會我包圍我2050我就退休了我不會做那麼久"},{"start":12562.281,"end":12571.704,"text":"不一定走到那一年啦你前面規劃好後面就照著你路徑走啊不一定一定坐在那個時候就是我這幾年認真規劃盤摸摸在規劃這個2050就有機會所以報告委所以我規劃了203538加減2嗎38"},{"start":12583.107,"end":12585.689,"text":"那我是2035喔2035等於是如果努力的話可以將近4成的減碳量未來10年可以減4成那我們的碳費300塊什麼時候開始課"},{"start":12598.935,"end":12620.186,"text":"今年1月1號就開始課 明年開始收要不要因為川普這樣改變了 不要不會確定喔確定確定不會改變喔對 確定你知不知道探權教育現在目前情況怎麼樣探權教育目前只有自願性的減量多少你知道嗎非常的 我們目前台灣的非常的還因為它只能自願性的什麼叫可能啦"},{"start":12621.687,"end":12634.259,"text":"碳權交易他不是真正說我要買賣不是的是說國外有些的碳權拿來這裡類似股票籌碼一樣在炒作你知道嗎給你看碳權交易多少10萬台幣新台幣啊上一次6000過來4000"},{"start":12642.11,"end":12660.23,"text":"那個交易所的時候 董事長來找我 我特別關心這一塊啊我特別關心這一塊 貪錢交易 貪錢交易因為這個又跟我們那個出口到歐盟去的西邊又有關係這個非常重要的一個 全世界都有這個貪錢交易所 結果台灣我說 貪錢交易啊 這怎麼是貪錢交易四千六千"},{"start":12664.534,"end":12668.416,"text":"只有4千 你看2025年的1月7號1比4千 1比6千2024年12月1比10萬那等於沒有啊 騙人的啊我們有探險教育喔 喔喔喔 了不起喔這年排放喔 都是欺騙社會"},{"start":12682.23,"end":12704.368,"text":"包委員不能這樣說因為它是自願性的市場因為它是自願性撿到的市場我例如說我自己要宣告碳中和我可以跟他買所以這個的誘因不夠所以我們現在正在規劃總量管制的排放交易我記得啊你的前面好幾屆前面的長官啊那時候叫環保署有個署長叫小毛你知道嗎知道知道嗎沈世宏叫小毛我跟他談了幾次啊他念之再之就是怎麼樣建立我們的碳權交易所"},{"start":12712.912,"end":12721.166,"text":"了不起啊 這裡面啊而且是法人才能夠交易喔 對不對對 這個是要重大的開放其中有好幾筆就是省市總區交易的"},{"start":12722.748,"end":12744.036,"text":"沈世宏啊你知道他念茲在茲當過環保署長老實說很了不起啊他一直覺得我們的為什麼貪權交易建立不起來呢因為公法人可以去他就成立個什麼協會聯盟然後就去買賣我們的貪權交易在市場裡面不要讓這個太難看要等於是ZERO啊"},{"start":12745.096,"end":12762.268,"text":"攔幹的要誰沒有人要推他是自願性的市場這樣少應該是理所當然的我問你 你能不能推一推嗎我們現在正在規劃總量管制的排放交易希望從慢慢的從碳費過渡到總量管制的排放交易我不是澎湖委員會啦但是我能不能夠拜託你給我們一份簡單的報告說怎麼來讓碳權交易這個市場火落可以嗎"},{"start":12772.074,"end":12783.657,"text":"可以 我們現在正在規劃希望明年下半年可以推出來明年下半年可以做這個事當然這涉及到很多法令的問題法令我們來修好法令 探險教育何等重要然後你看從沈世宏2008年馬英九執政的時候那時候他當環保署長到現在我每次找他 他就跟我講這個事情每次找他就跟我講這個事情"},{"start":12797.941,"end":12806.965,"text":"舉全世界各國的例子我覺得很棒啊我全力支持啊我那時候也是在讀這個探權教育的書啊對我在讀書大時候的讀書會跟省署長就在讀這個東西十幾年前就在讀這個書探權教育探權教育探權教育我在財務會老是盯這個事情看了東西心很酸啊因為這個教育幾萬塊是不是要一件"},{"start":12821.75,"end":12823.871,"text":"謝謝委員支持 謝謝謝謝賴委員 謝謝部長我們接下來請張祺凱委員來做詢問請部長張委員好"},{"start":12849.249,"end":12877.482,"text":"今天齊凱要問齊銘啊世界這個環評啊是不是一個假環評真作弊博丁你知道一位吹哨者來提供的這個資料啊多立聯本這個致癌的嘛你知道這個很毒超標的7.3倍而且這個檢測過程啊竟然造假土壤這個污染值在調查裡面竟然只有查了一處你知道這件事情嗎我知道我知道你知道那這個環評還有效嗎"},{"start":12879.193,"end":12899.654,"text":"當然有效啊 這是兩個 包括委員其實土屋跟這個環評這是兩個不一樣的法規程序如果沒有問題 那為什麼要避開呢沒有避開 我們先看一下法令先看一下法令規定土壤污染評估調查報告跟檢測作業的管理辦法第五條"},{"start":12901.873,"end":12928.526,"text":"鎖定了這個土壤污染評估值跟測驗這個資料如果照這個資料不得低於以下這個規定你至少一個污染的土地你要檢測如果是原來協和電廠這個面積要245處如果包括那個填奶的地方要303結果你自己去做了一個59點的這個自行的這個檢測保定你要回答那個問題我要提醒你一個很重要的不管是不是台電給你假的這個資料還是錯誤的信息如果沒有問題"},{"start":12930.069,"end":12941.072,"text":"你們為什麼要避開那你之前為什麼要做你都還知道台積電去高雄那個河地的整治就是污染土地現在還在整治啊"},{"start":12942.233,"end":12966.586,"text":"你污染的土地沒有整治完怎麼可以上面就開始蓋呢怎麼環評就夠了呢是不是這樣你現在是環境部長你現在是環境部長喔這個不要變成你從民間來的留下來一個污點很重要第一個我先跟你講我先講一個重要概念你污染一個土地河地整治都沒有完成環評就可以夠嗎這是第一個點第二個我最直接問的台電你們如果認為沒問題或者"},{"start":12971.019,"end":12977.041,"text":"環境部這邊沒問題你們當初為什麼要做更嚴重的你們為什麼要避開那59個有污染的地方就是需要做嘛對不對是不是這樣現在更讓我生氣了那天2月26號環評我跟陳昭志跟黃珊珊我們三個立法委員因為我們接到吹哨者的資料啊我們是送進去環境部我知道你那天迴避嘛對不對"},{"start":12998.444,"end":13004.39,"text":"可是你環境部跟所有的環評委員事先應該已經接到這個資料囉我給你看這個資料 來你看看我們看上一張圖這個土壤要怎麼調查它一共有分A B C D你看看 有幾個區A區是污染很嚴重的廢水處理場的部分"},{"start":13021.618,"end":13030.162,"text":"V區 V區後來調查了 污染比較沒那麼嚴重可是D區就是發電機組這個區域啊非常嚴重 下一張我給你看一下這是台電WTOG自己做出來的喔結果你們把這個東西蓋牌了A區就是剛剛講的廢水處理廠都立原本啊管制的標準只有0.09欸"},{"start":13050.22,"end":13064.209,"text":"這是致癌的這麼嚴重的一個污染污染物超標多少0.659欸超標7.3倍下面這是低區很多都超標了部長當崔少哲把這東西給了立法委員立法委員叫環評委員要先看結果那天"},{"start":13080.509,"end":13095.672,"text":"你至少要做一個動作嘛把這個資料消化完之後是不是好好去清查一下當天基隆市的市長也在場我的要求完全要合法要合乎規定你至少讓基隆市謝國隆那天也講啊他說儘快他會同你環境部去做這個檢測"},{"start":13108.772,"end":13114.896,"text":"你做完檢測以後那天環評才有效啊結果你罷完硬上工這樣的環評大會怎麼會是有效的部長我明確做三個要求我今天早上來問了會議紀錄到現在沒有公佈嘛對不對三天內第一個三天內完整公佈歷次的環評的這個審議還有2月26號會議的這個紀錄"},{"start":13137.83,"end":13156.713,"text":"特別是土壤污染的評估報告可以嗎 法定法務委員這個是基隆要宣告所謂的土壤污染管制區是基隆市政府他要去查的地方政府那我們已經交代我們的環管署到那個地方要配合基隆市環保局去查到底有沒有那委員你提出的這個所謂的"},{"start":13157.193,"end":13173.385,"text":"介紹者 催哨者 歡迎到接避者保護我一定馬上查 馬上處理這段的過程我們會馬上處理從環評的程序裡面說得很清楚環評的程序跟土屋管制兩個是不一樣的法規程序像南部的你說的例如說很多的這個要新蓋的"},{"start":13174.346,"end":13196.338,"text":"污染了要開發他的規劃環評還是可以照走但是他如果要開發一定要整治完了之後才會開發現在他不過現在根本就是不是土壤的管制的區域那他過去106年曾經發現過107到08年鞋餓電廠已經改善了現在不是那現在未來如果公告是的話那他未來就進入到那個程序嚴重誤會囉"},{"start":13197.779,"end":13219.455,"text":"吹哨者保護拿來的不是舊的東西喔是最近台電委託自行去調查的喔你如果沒有需要你為什麼要調查你為什麼要移開要避開而且是新的資料你絕對不要被誤導的不是舊的資料是新的這是第一個點第一個點來第二個更重要來來來當場環評大會要開對不對你有新的市政出現嘛"},{"start":13221.26,"end":13247.477,"text":"你是不是應該停下來那天謝國亮已經講了他盡快會同你環境部去調查完你說調查完真的沒有問題是誤會你對不對那你環評就過了啊你現在顛倒病啊你現在先過了環評然後你現在去調查調查出來有問題怎麼辦所以這個根本就是一個無效的啊霸王硬上弓又違反程序違法的一個環評啊是不是這樣報告委員這是兩個不一樣的法規程序"},{"start":13248.294,"end":13273.795,"text":"不一樣的法規可是一定要做啊要不然的話他如果要開發他如果要開發要把土壤整治完成才可以開發啊你今天有誤對我知道你的意思啦可是第一個如果有污染你就要先要求他做這個事嘛對不對你當場沒有做你還要通過環評第二個是部長您在講的啊你要先確認啊要不然你怎麼後來有整治的問題等一下等一下啦來來來所以做三件事情第一個法定三天內"},{"start":13276.618,"end":13287.129,"text":"公布歷次環評的會議特別是土地污染的評估報告你有問題嗎土地污染的報告不是環評會議的資料是他們做土屋調查的"},{"start":13288.662,"end":13311.152,"text":"這邊要跟委員說明一下土壤污染評估調查的報告是他們依土屋法去做的調查並不是依我們環評法去調查所以我們環評裡頭只有規定它範疇界定要去調查一個點位所以我們環評的資料當然會議紀錄相關是OK可是土屋調查是另外所以59個地方有污染你特別去挑了一個你為什麼要避開"},{"start":13313.015,"end":13328.826,"text":"這個什麼 台語什麼 禮貌也要注意喔偷天換日是吧你怎麼跟人民可以交代現在我非常明確的要求嘛第一個就是因為有問題所以你才要調查這是一個 所以我要求第一個你把這個調查報告給全民看"},{"start":13330.199,"end":13343.917,"text":"你有二氧化碳數嗎現在吹哨所來講就是59個地方明明確確都是有汙染啊你後來坐著再去去啊對不對這邊先跟委員報告你看看A跟D都有汙染結果你再去"},{"start":13345.359,"end":13361.185,"text":"把這個公佈給全民來做公平更重要的無染無染的調查報告是他們自行調查報告並不是送到我們審查的報告所以這個可能要請台電自己說明而且那個報告也不是我們你要保護安全的保護環境的"},{"start":13364.892,"end":13383.062,"text":"包委員我們叫依法行政圖跟環評這是本來兩件事情而且他們一定要整治完之後才能做開發這是本來的規定過去以往就是這個樣子所以你發現有污染你是不是應該停下來把它整治好或者是確認完之後才能夠開下一步請台縣來報告所以我做了兩個很重要的要求你看一下"},{"start":13386.84,"end":13411.413,"text":"第一個你把資料把它公佈第二個 柏定你看這個要求這個很明確嘛依法跟依程序嘛土壤評估報告裡面如果你現在調查出來的他如果沒有含之前的那個59處他跳開了 對不對他避開了 柏定你說你已經要跟市政府要去調查嘛對不對是不是"},{"start":13412.369,"end":13438.638,"text":"我們是配合市政府去做調查配合嘛對啊所以環境部立即會同這個基隆市政府針對這59個地方你趕快去調查沒有調查完成之前你這個會議本來就是無效的嘛這個會議環評大會這個結論要先報告不是無效喔不是無效他都有經歷了法令的過程來完成這件事情兩個法令本來就是不一樣委員你不能強人所難我們是依法行政啊"},{"start":13439.52,"end":13443.982,"text":"所以我們就配合市政府他必須要去完成這個土壤污染區的公告啊OK所以我提了第三點嘛如果後來你們去檢測的結果確實有污染這樣環民大會的結論還可以用嗎"},{"start":13462.026,"end":13491.646,"text":"柏定回答等一下我要叫他留下記錄柏定摸著良心你從明天來我原本不能這樣說這個是我們要按照這個程序在進行這個程序我的程序就是他如果汙染汙染汙染如果就進到我們的汙染整治的關鍵他在106年曾經發現過107 08年在我們部內的列管已經整治完成了那現在他現在正在如果有新的事項我們去查了之後他也是照這個程序在開在在進行啊"},{"start":13492.747,"end":13512.644,"text":"你這個是頭跟腳不是顛倒了嗎你發現它有汙染你就盡可能不要再這個環境就不應該過你處理完你才能夠走下一步啊結果不是你現在是怎麼樣一定要護航要先過霸王硬上弓說一定要一定要過嗎教練在跟我講一定要過這是兩個不一樣的程序我也說得很清楚喔"},{"start":13513.485,"end":13524.52,"text":"那我剛剛一直有一個疑問嘛台電為什麼要做這個為什麼環評團體跟民團要來抗議這個我剛才還給你看土壤法的這個整個整個檢測的過程那個報告委員好我是台電啦我這邊先說明一下"},{"start":13531.878,"end":13554.63,"text":"協和電廠並不是市政府宣布的土地污染場址所以在環評法裡面它是兩個不同法源如果今天是環評法裡面它特別有說明如果你是宣布為土地污染場址的時候就不能辦環評"},{"start":13556.109,"end":13568.607,"text":"他並沒有先後秩序台電是自主負責那你為什麼要自行負責要去做這個調查你有沒有沒問題你為什麼要調查沒有規定你為什麼要做這個調查委員你先聽我把事情說完"},{"start":13573.097,"end":13598.892,"text":"台電就是我們每一個開發廠子都必須做這個都必須把土地整治完成合格之後才會進行開發市街發現污染了不用是吧 跳過去就好了是吧那個報告委員剛剛我剛剛有澄清基隆市政府如果有宣布協和電廠當時在環評之前是土屋"},{"start":13600.12,"end":13615.175,"text":"有宣布的話那這個環評可能就有問題可是這個並不是宣布可是這個要市政府全責是你們台電拿出台電的這個叫報告人這個是我們自主性做的這個跟市政府"},{"start":13615.956,"end":13645.576,"text":"市政府 你的調查裡面有沒有汙染有沒有這59個汙染有沒有報告委員 有沒有 有沒有自主性檢查裡面有這一個汙染但是這個並不是市政府自己去調查是我們為了開花案場而去做的自主性調查所以市政府如果照你們的調查報告就是會有嘛是不是你們自己調查的東西到底有沒有這才重要啊"},{"start":13645.916,"end":13653.037,"text":"委員這個要進到環評的時候在範疇界定裡面他要求我們測試是1點這委員應該很清楚啊太子你為什麼不測那50你們還建議說要跳開這59點這個是抽樣欸抽樣不是說我們固定的沒有說跳過去啦那個59點並不是在範疇界定裡面所以你那個"},{"start":13675.768,"end":13683.335,"text":"沒有59點裡面的話你怎麼抽得出來說是有你自己找到59點跳過去你們的報告裡面還建議說你到時候要檢測的時候要跳過那59點啊欸對不起委員並不是像你想像中不是像你想像中59點不是在好好委員委員來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來大家看一下"},{"start":13703.113,"end":13710.301,"text":"初步判斷非擴散污染因已知污染位置正式調查可以疑點這不是你們來電嗎我是覺得我們應該是去看環評裡面的規定說我們"},{"start":13719.872,"end":13728.998,"text":"換籌界定的那一點區域在哪裡可是這個59點是另外一個問題可是到底有沒有汙染第二個你有沒有檢測到59個汙染點第三個你為什麼故意跳進去我已經讓你們兩道解說清楚了齁好不好來來抱歉抱歉輸血不用不用不用你們這樣不行啦齁你們兩個一個解釋也不是很清楚一個認定上也有模糊的空間啦齁是不是休息五分鐘那你們就說清楚不用不用不用"},{"start":13745.67,"end":13754.417,"text":"後面有委員在等啊我當主席我最起碼已經給你們有充分的時間了這個委員會我剛才當主席你們要把事情討論清楚我絕對會支持但是你們兩兆在平行啊"},{"start":13768.487,"end":13791.878,"text":"完全沒有教會嘛我讓你們休息完等一下你要講再講嘛好不好來休息三分鐘等一下我們私下溝通一下休息一方面溝通一下一方面我就要求照這三點來做啦趕快環境部會同那個基隆市政府基本要弄清楚你如果真的檢測出來你沒有的問題現在問題就是清清楚楚你自己白紙黑字都有問題嘛你這環評怎麼會有效呢"},{"start":13808.623,"end":13818.966,"text":"我當然珍惜啊可是你要依法行政啊你不能這樣給我污衊啊這個我們有一定的程序啊污染完就要整治完成啊"},{"start":13824.061,"end":13848.558,"text":"你們避開了五十九點再去找一個沒有的換籌界定的一點委員的認知是什麼對啦 你要不用你我的報價 這些都一定還你規定的對 換籌界定的那個不是我們界定的沒事啦 沒事啦就是 反正把那你們現在一定是不要這樣做嘛反正院長也知道你們做什麼對啊 對啊"},{"start":13854.156,"end":13866.308,"text":"你留在這裏, 靜一靜就好, 看你, 看你, 看你,要不要乾杯呢, 謝謝,"},{"start":13873.965,"end":13886.636,"text":"河沙沙沙"},{"start":13899.104,"end":13913.131,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":14022.506,"end":14040.131,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接下來請張志倫委員來做詢問好 主席 各位委員 各位官員 大家午安有請彭部長來 請部長"},{"start":14046.774,"end":14067.067,"text":"今天要討論的是有關於台灣空污的相關的問題最近的新聞也明確的表示出來肺癌成為國人十大癌症死因之首每年新增的人數1.7萬人"},{"start":14069.469,"end":14082.605,"text":"新增人數1.7萬人死亡超過1萬人那尤其現在最重要的就是大家認為這個肺腺癌肺癌的原因跟這個居住地方的PM2.5濃度有相當重要的一個關係那就這個"},{"start":14086.99,"end":14106.469,"text":"本部環境部提出來的資料就是說現在來講去年的PM2.5的數字有下降到12點12點多的一個部分是相較去年來講是前年來講是比較好可是本席這邊有提供有提到一個資料就是說就"},{"start":14107.67,"end":14135.908,"text":"這個瑞士空氣品質檢測公司IQ Air的部分他寫說而且公視也有報導這樣的資料台灣在全球空污的排名結果是第54名將於2023年退後9名所以這邊要請教部長的部分是說為何我們環境部內部的資料跟我們國際瑞士空氣品質檢測公司兩方的資料"},{"start":14136.849,"end":14164.45,"text":"感覺起來台灣的空汙的品質是退後八名而且在這邊這個環境部的資料是寫說他的這個PA2.5的指標是12點多可是這裡的數字是17.5我想要請教一下這個部長這跟我們現在訂的12規定的12的PA2.5的這個標準相差很大是不是可以請部長說明這兩個資料的差別"},{"start":14165.59,"end":14179.575,"text":"好 謝謝張委員提出這個意見因為這個IQ Air我跟委員報告它是一個瑞士的一家做空氣品質監測的公司它的產品是屬於這種小型的比較便宜的比較容易偵測的所以大家都會可以採用"},{"start":14180.535,"end":14208.405,"text":"那它在台灣也有一些策站然後它的使用的資料會整合我們環境部的資料那通常這種自動的數字它一定會比較高它缺乏的QAQC或上游在某一種條件之下例如說濕度很高PM2.5就容易變得高所以它的統計的量它會相對的就會偏高那我們也跟委員報告因為它本身是一個賣空氣淨淨機還有微星感測器的私人公司我們尊重它在國際上發這種"},{"start":14210.005,"end":14225.951,"text":"新聞但是以台灣我們是採用國際標準的用這個手動來監測然後校正自動的兩個都一起看所以我們是12.8我們才是比較符合國際統一的標準的方法好謝謝部長的解釋所以部長的意思是說這家公司他就是為了要"},{"start":14227.311,"end":14245.535,"text":"這個開創市場所以他故意把這個檢測的標準把它提高可是我還是要跟部長報告就是說我個人認為監測的品質的這個數字可以受公平我也不認為說一個國際型的這個公司他會故意就針對一些監測的數字來去做調整"},{"start":14249.376,"end":14264.902,"text":"針對他認定的那臺灣那所以你也不認為說臺灣的空氣品質在國際世界排名是第54名有退後8名這你手上的資料是進步嗎所以意思就是說我認為評斷的指標可以嚴格或是是比如說他認為的是比如說超過30"},{"start":14266.002,"end":14281.677,"text":"或超過20是比如說嚴重或不嚴重可是我個人是認為他在檢測的過程中他不會因為說好像要開發市場就故意做更嚴格的或是更錯誤的數據所以我是請部長可以解釋一下說"},{"start":14283.018,"end":14310.768,"text":"是不是你覺得台灣是進步沒有退後我們其實過去從8年前大概20維克PM2.5到了現在12.8那也跟委員報告這進步是很大的但是說真的也到了一個瓶頸我們往下降其實需要很多的努力所以目前我們認為是說我們台灣的空瓶並沒有像這個他評估的這麼超而且我們其實標準都是依照跟著國際趨勢一樣在走的我們的方法學要把它先定義清楚那他把"},{"start":14311.548,"end":14335.647,"text":"他是把很多的策戰的數據做一個平均那我們認為如果討論上以台灣的數字來看的話17.5是沒有辦法代表台灣實際上的空氣品質的好 謝謝部長那這部分我還是當然部長有解釋我們還是屬於尊重好 那接下來我們其實時間的關係我們來看一個表好就針對我們跳下一個表"},{"start":14338.578,"end":14366.997,"text":"好來上一個表上一個表其實那我上次也看到部長有參加一個會議他說民眾的期待希望空污的品質更積極解決資訊盲點那也特別提到汽機車環境的空污比煙囪多以及生活室內空污影響比戶外多結果後來我看到這個環境部有做這樣的一個表談點我國空污的來源的現況規劃精準管制的一個方向那這個表大概的意思就是說境外輸入"},{"start":14368.358,"end":14383.91,"text":"傳輸的這個空氣品質才是造成台灣空氣品質的一個最主要的原因請問那個部長是嗎對這個是把台灣的所有的境外跟境內各種來源做出一個統計調查出來的結果對所以這個部長那個是沒有問題的沒有問題"},{"start":14385.302,"end":14404.912,"text":"可是部長我看到我這邊有圈一個紅色的框框所以為什麼現在民眾跟環境部跟政府認定為空汙的來源標準造成空汙標準會嚴重的有落差我這邊圈了一個台灣過去大家認為就是因為錯誤的能源政策火力發電火力全開"},{"start":14405.832,"end":14428.407,"text":"可是在這個報告這個資料裡面只有寫說電力業造成的空污只佔全台灣空污的影響的比例只有2.3%請問部長你不會覺得這跟一般人民的認知落差太大啦尤其在你的這個今天的報告裡面還寫出因為空氣的污染你還要要求我們台灣的很多的發電廠比如說協和電廠"},{"start":14429.668,"end":14443.651,"text":"等等這些發電廠要他控制發電造成的空汙可是你比如說協和賣寮等這些電廠結果在你自己環境部的個人認為這部門的認為他影響的部分直接2.3%那我請教部長因為一個2.3的影響而去勞斯動眾來去請台灣的發電量要降低這樣不是跟人民的落差很大嗎"},{"start":14456.056,"end":14483.189,"text":"包委員其實我們的這個降載喔是很多年來都是這樣在做那以前這個電力業的比例是更高那也其實台電也整個就降下來了所以意思是台電現在已經降下來所以台電的占比只有100%只有2.3%你的意思是說人民這個騎車開車占的交通人員12%所以人民要來改善還有一些生物啊生物人員占3.9所以台灣的動物也是造成空污的指標"},{"start":14484.65,"end":14492.77,"text":"是這樣子嗎對這個是經過科學驗證這是有經過我們的專家學者討論出來用各種的大型的模式算出來的結果"},{"start":14493.581,"end":14517.544,"text":"我只能跟部長講這個跟一般人民的想法差太多也跟現在環境部在跟各個部會協調如果是這樣的話那你為什麼要去請台電有一些火力發電少發電他才占100%的2.3啊還要這麼老實當中應該是解決其他的問題相關的問題啊因為他們是固定污染源比較好控制那其他的移動污染源相對的是比較辛苦的所以我但是未來我們會全部一起來推動"},{"start":14518.184,"end":14544.429,"text":"所以我還是要拜託台中火力發電造成台中的空汙非常嚴重這是全民的共識啊可是我相信不過委員那個共識跟實際上的知識所以人民的共識不對環境部說的環境部要幫人民改一個觀念就是說其實電力火力發電對人民的健康沒有影響只有在全台灣的空汙只有2.3%報委員那個每個地方不一定所以委員你不要套我話"},{"start":14545.109,"end":14563.022,"text":"就是說不要把我挖坑給我跳其實是基本上不一樣的天氣形態不一樣的條件是會不一樣的但是我也必須說現在我們的這種移動污染源遠超過固定污染源了所以這個是我們下一個階段要努力的目標那部長有沒有對你講的這些移動污染源有任何的一些未來的經濟方式"},{"start":14563.762,"end":14581.632,"text":"這個是我們現在在研究但是報告委員這個很難推動因為例如說像我在韓國曾經介紹他們的細胞簡訊今天空氣不好請大家不要開車到市區去這個在台灣反而空氣不好我要開自己的車進去不要吸到空氣所以這個觀念的轉換的確要有一些方法的那這個部分我們會來討論"},{"start":14583.203,"end":14606.874,"text":"好那我要最後要跟部長講今天外面的霧茫茫那今天的空氣品質AQY指標在新北跟台北市其實都超過100都代表空氣品質差不好不好的一個狀況所以我希望環境部還是要努力所以今天部長我今天有帶一個禮物給你這個這個是橘色橘色的口罩這個是我找到的橘色口罩第二個是"},{"start":14607.881,"end":14620.894,"text":"粉紅色的口罩那我希望說部長可以拿到這個資訊就希望我們的空氣秉持不要到橘色跟紅色那這邊可以給你讓你繼續來關心我們台灣的這個空污的問題好嗎好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝張偉謝謝部長接下來請楊耀偉委員來做詢答恭請"},{"start":14632.523,"end":14634.184,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請一下彭部長來 請部長楊委員好 部長好"},{"start":14663.117,"end":14674.985,"text":"台電就不用上來齁 不過我先講一下就是說假如說我們的火力發電造成的空汙止戰"},{"start":14676.838,"end":14692.084,"text":"來源的2.3%那我覺得台電必須要有責任為自己的商譽做一定的澄清跟捍衛假如說這個數據是沒有問題的當然不是說2.3%"},{"start":14698.888,"end":14718.105,"text":"很少因為它是固定污染源所以它影響的區域是比較固定我們當然要盡量的減少可是假如佔總比例的2.3%我認為不應該被放大成這個樣子"},{"start":14725.464,"end":14751.391,"text":"台電來的人坐在那邊要認真聽真的我真的覺得不用上台因為我只是跟你們講我剛剛聽到這個數據還蠻還蠻訝異的為什麼你們占了2.3%可以被講成好像台灣所有的污染都是火力發電造成的"},{"start":14753.407,"end":14764.539,"text":"部長 環境部在2月底的時候有舉辦了一個加強空污防治的論壇也邀集了很多國際的學者來討論我們是預計3月底會發布"},{"start":14775.106,"end":14782.741,"text":"新公平政策白皮書對不對對 我們現在正在努力做啦齁可能4月多才會對外公佈好沒有關係就是那我"},{"start":14784.475,"end":14805.545,"text":"我請問一下這個白皮書大概會著重在空污防治的哪些面向因為第一個是剛剛講到的就是認知的問題就是說我們發現民眾對於這種污染來源都一直覺得是外面的可是事實上我們自己汽機車各種的污染也蠻多的所以我們要把這個資訊可以掌握"},{"start":14805.985,"end":14823.497,"text":"所以我們大概呢第一個是我們希望民眾可以走向健康的方式去走所以我們要提出一些污染改善的這個重點例如說汽機車怎麼做工廠怎麼做還有鄰近的生活污染源怎麼做其實裡面最重要的就是說因為我們未來這個總統也特別規劃了2035年要達到淨零2035要減38加減22030要減28加減2其實這個會減的蠻多的那這個減呢其實也會讓"},{"start":14834.705,"end":14853.235,"text":"空氣品質也會變好所以我們也預期說淨零跟這個空品會兩個共利那怎麼去達成所以這個也會討論那另外一個呢是我是覺得空氣品質需要全民一起做而且要一些新的科技那我也坦承說環境部現在掌握的工具我們經由國際上的專家學者包含日本的專家"},{"start":14854.035,"end":14882.057,"text":"他們環境省的一些專家來其實我們發現我們還是有一些不夠的地方我們希望未來這幾年可以逐步的來加強改善所以我們大概會提出一個白皮書我們的願景往那邊走好 那既然是願景我就問一下就是我們在空氣污染防治法裡面本來就有相關空氣污染防治方案定期"},{"start":14882.978,"end":14890.419,"text":"定期修正檢討的機制那跟你們現在講的白皮書會不會有跌床駕屋的"},{"start":14891.567,"end":14920.493,"text":"不會我們就是因為我們要走到下一個階段第三期那這個呢就是增強讓我們第三期經由專家學者還有民眾的參與許願能夠得到一個比較好的共識因為我們也發現說我們環境部提的一些政策民眾根本不知道不懂所以就會造成一些缺格那我其實我覺得未來推動公屋是需要民眾一起來支持的所以我們希望讓大家能夠知道所以所以政策白皮書"},{"start":14922.903,"end":14942.941,"text":"欸是是願景對然後也希望我們會落實到這個行動的方案然後法律規定的是行動方案對對對我們希望會落地到行動方案當然這裡面呃我們的都是同一個團隊在在做的所以這個這個是匯集大家的意見有這個完成的意見之後才會真的去執行那執行會更有力道好好那欸"},{"start":14945.646,"end":14963.843,"text":"部長就是在2月底的論壇裡面呢就是大概有部長有盤點了8項空無減量遭遇的難題啦那我可能今天也沒有辦法一一跟部長做探討我問其中幾點齁就是"},{"start":14967.117,"end":14993.347,"text":"氣機車排放的問題也就是移動污染源的問題這個的佔比火力發電大得多對不對我也發現就是台灣推動電動機車推動那麼多年補助那麼多錢可是並沒有得到很好的效果那既然你們把這八點列為"},{"start":14996.766,"end":15017.032,"text":"難題部長你有沒有什麼想法就我現在提出來的汽機車排放的問題汽機車排放當然從源頭例如說汽機車把它變成電動化改善空污這是最快的做法不過因為現在的這個補助其實相對的除了我們這個空污抵換方式可以補助之外現在的確回歸到市場機制"},{"start":15017.892,"end":15046.412,"text":"可是不然我插一下話就是說我也不覺得長期補助是一件好事因為我印象沒有記錯的話補助應該也超過10年10年了 非常多錢那補助那麼多錢可是只要補助減少或者是補助停止就沒有人買電動車這個就事實嘛那有沒有什麼方法可以做改善的"},{"start":15048.234,"end":15074.911,"text":"這個部分其實是如果是汽機車的話因為電動車的話現在其實相對它的造價已經相對的比較電動機汽車啦比較親民那電動機車有些已經慢慢開始降下來了所以我們希望說從市場面例如說國內幾個電動車的業者能夠加速的來進行不管是機車或是汽車都可以來進行那目前的確是慢慢到一個平衡點相對的價位不會差別太大了"},{"start":15075.6,"end":15098.081,"text":"汽車看起來是世界的趨勢就是而且他可能好像市場的接受度也慢慢提高那汽車的部分我還是要在這邊講就是假如電池交換的機制沒有辦法很完善再怎麼推再怎麼補助都沒有辦法"},{"start":15100.753,"end":15122.526,"text":"對 部長汽車因為它比較難交換啦 機車的部分那機車的部分沒有 汽車因為它就是國際的趨勢而且大家比較有信賴感所以可能還好現在是機車的部分因為早期確實是電池的品質然後造成很多人心理有障礙像我本身就是要怎麼推動電池的統一交換"},{"start":15129.59,"end":15155.468,"text":"這個可能要想一下因為目前這兩家他的方式不大一樣而且也沒辦法整合這個就還蠻可惜的因為電動化確實是減少污染最壞的方式那我其他的問題就下一次再問啦"},{"start":15159.929,"end":15178.225,"text":"好 謝謝恩偉 謝謝部長 接下來請翁曉琳委員來做詢問不要干擾會議進行市長委好 有請部長來 有請部長"},{"start":15189.496,"end":15198.2,"text":"部長我想今天本席其實看到這個會議的主題我的直覺就是這個議題氣象變異導致國內空氣污染品質惡化"},{"start":15203.642,"end":15224.416,"text":"似乎就是想要護航現在民進黨政府的無能在整個能源的這個政策上面有很大的錯誤然後所以導致整個國內的空氣品質嚴重的惡化而竟然把這樣的因素推就給歸咎於是因為氣候變遷氣候變遷會造成空污品質的惡化嗎"},{"start":15230.95,"end":15242.195,"text":"二包委員那個是氣象氣象是短的例如說這幾天的天氣這造成混合層的變低那是氣象所以我們今天談的是一個短的問題還是談一個長的問題因為某一個圖盤這幾天空氣品質例如說改吹東風我們這個擴散條件不佳這是氣象的問題這天氣的問題氣候變天指的是長的10年20年所以這兩個是不一樣的詞"},{"start":15253.619,"end":15272.114,"text":"所以氣象變異您認為說這也是扮演重要的一個關鍵因素為什麼台灣的這個城市的空氣品質會如此糟糕我們來看一下今天的空氣品質剛剛前面的委員有問過其實今天的空氣品質嚴格來說其實是不好"},{"start":15274.395,"end":15277.296,"text":"這邊寫84普通可是我們看他那個系懸浮為例就是PM2.5 24.4這個已經是超標很嚴重了吧沒有沒有沒有我們如果說是跟這個WHO的標準來看的話WHO的標準是多少"},{"start":15291.306,"end":15303.173,"text":"他建議是5但是其實是5我們24欸那個5很難做得到啊委員我們如果在花蓮也只不過就有7到8左右欸是是5很難做到對台灣來講很難做到對其他國家來說對不對有到7的8的很接近的這個其實別的國家都做得到為什麼台灣做不到"},{"start":15313.414,"end":15336.994,"text":"其實我們在臺灣在鄰近的亞洲的國家我們比韓國好比日本差一點點但是我們算是已經在前面的我們來看看全球最污染最嚴重的國家這以2024年來講我們是排名54名排名54名意思是說其實我們空氣污染是很糟糕的排名第一名是最嚴重排名54名然後呢南韓是多少59"},{"start":15338.735,"end":15342.958,"text":"新加坡94日本108我們如果要效法這個德國他們已經進入了無核家園人家也是103空氣品質比我們好得多吧你看日本他平均的8.69跟WHO的數字是非常接近的所以我們不要在那邊自欺欺人說我們現在的17.5或是平均20我們的空氣品質很好"},{"start":15363.683,"end":15371.369,"text":"包委員這個是IQ Air這個是瑞士的一家做空氣淨淨機還有賣儀器的公司做的所以它其實跟我們量測的方法不一樣所以這個數據僅供參考僅供參考所以我們量測的數據也是僅供參考因為我們跟其他的國家相比我們也是不好啊它基本上它是拿著這個自動全世界最權威的數據我們來看"},{"start":15385.841,"end":15388.883,"text":"對 你可以講說 這個不是最權威的數據我知道 我說請您可以提供一個最權威的數據全世界 有哪個國際組織提供最權威的數據來看看我們台灣的國際排名在最嚴重污染的國際排名裡面 我們是排第幾位麻煩請您會後"},{"start":15406.696,"end":15425.794,"text":"要提供給我好不好一個禮拜之內可以還是三天其實就給我了委員再給我們多一點時間因為要蒐集各國最新的要花一點時間好不好一個月好不好應該是有些國際組織或是學術研究機構就有做啊報委員那個方法學不一樣我們是採用國際上最嚴格的所以你們都是找最有利於台灣的方法學嘛委員你不能這樣說我們是看數據來做事"},{"start":15427.936,"end":15448.57,"text":"看數據嘛 所以嘛這是很清楚的數據嘛你在怎麼批評人家說這個是屬於民間的組織這個是賣什麼空氣清淨機但他做出來的數據跟我們的有差別嗎你看看我們今天來我們看我們今天24.4人家還對我們客氣了這是每天一天一天的如果我們看的是整年的不一樣所以一整年我們也沒有比較好來我們往下面看"},{"start":15458.338,"end":15479.628,"text":"本席現在這邊很關心的問題就是其實我們知道空氣污染與肺腺癌的關係是息息相關那台灣的肺腺癌的人數已經是超過這個前十年要多得多那麼我們這邊就不說了這個事已經是正相關這是大家眾所皆知的事情那接下來我想要講的就是說其實"},{"start":15481.589,"end":15509.323,"text":"在其他國家也有在談是不是可以放空污假您覺得台灣有沒有必要放空污假這個目前我們台灣的嚴重空污的事件並沒有像這個印度這麼的嚴重印度那麼嚴重其實我們現在跟教育部合作有空污期他就可以適當的有一些及時的反應所以我們要到空污假的確目前還有一段的還有一段路要走目前來看的話因為他們是的確是非常嚴重"},{"start":15510.043,"end":15513.867,"text":"是 所以部長您認為我們到目前為止還不需要放空屋價那我們的情況還沒有那麼嚴重我們要去跟那個第一名前幾名的印度比嗎我們可以跟其他的國家比嗎好委員北京上海PM2.5都超過平均年平均值是35那這個印度的這個大概都兩三百以上我們台灣最嚴重的頂多五六十就很嚴重了"},{"start":15533.467,"end":15539.611,"text":"我們要跟好的學習見弦思起煙我們為什麼不去跟日本不去跟德國不去跟法國其他一些國家學對不對我們事實上我們的空氣污染就很嚴重啊就從中南部每次我開這個開車經過台中地區整個天氣就是霧濛濛的啊他就是他不管是天氣好天氣不好他都是這樣啊沒有這個你看到是藍天啊"},{"start":15561.994,"end":15590.215,"text":"那個是非常非常少數的這是人家記者拍的所以我只是舉例剛剛還沒有講到就是台電的問題對不對你台電現在因為馬上因應核能在核三廠二號機五月叫停止運轉剩下的那個3.5% 4%的電會要用什麼方式來因應是不是台中火力發電廠還要全要火力全開了"},{"start":15593.207,"end":15608.979,"text":"這個到時候我們的空污會不會更嚴重報告委員燃氣基本上那個空污比燃煤少很多而且它相對的很乾淨所以火力發電是燃煤跟燃氣是不一樣的所以部長我發現您的有些訊息也是錯誤的報告委員我沒有錯誤所產生出來的污染物質它還是比核電要多得多所以委員你的意思是這個電廠可以蓋核電嗎"},{"start":15620.441,"end":15645.848,"text":"我不是說這個電廠蓋核電我有說台中火力發電廠改成核電嗎我的意思講說核三廠和其他的廠現在我們在談核電研議的問題請問部長您同不同意您支不支持核電廠研議報告委員研議需要法規還有後面的廢廢料的處理研議的法規是我們立法委員負責從您當環境部長的角度來看您支持核電研議嗎我們要打造一個更乾淨的家園"},{"start":15647.267,"end":15662.717,"text":"核電研議與否是經濟部核安會的工作我現在要問你從環境部的角度來看怎麼樣能夠提升改善環境的空氣品質我們支持低碳的能源 污染少的能源只是低碳您的目標就這麼小 低碳我們有可能淨零排碳嗎要努力 非常努力要努力 非常努力我看如果在你們民進黨執政底下大概不可能完成好 OK 今天質詢到這邊 謝謝"},{"start":15675.66,"end":15685.447,"text":"好,謝謝,讓他們努力一下,齁欸,阿老,趕快嘿我...給你賺錢"},{"start":15704.958,"end":15732.945,"text":"好,請劉建國委員發言好,謝謝主席,有請部長欸,莊委好部長好,部長辛苦了啦不過我是剛剛在主持會議的時候我要提醒,有人都委員是針對金融市那個案件我覺得您這邊的答案跟台電的答案是有點"},{"start":15734.608,"end":15751.271,"text":"有點落差 不太好因為兩個的範疇原本就是不太一樣硬放在一塊在講程序的過程裡面我覺得這事情應該是最早就要先釐清應該是台電要趕快先跳出來講清楚"},{"start":15751.952,"end":15767.503,"text":"而且是你們自主檢驗的部分確實已經有問題嘛對不對然後他現在又要另外另外一個範圍裡面那邊又有問題然後說你們去抽又出了問題等等等等好諸如此類我是覺得這個事情應該是可以講得很清楚我不曉得為什麼會"},{"start":15768.924,"end":15793.117,"text":"用了這麼多時間而且在那邊爭執不斷嘛那當然我就沒辦法我就想說時間也拖太久後面有這麼多委員要質詢所以我就必須把它切斷那我還是建議說像這種事情可能要慎重而且要簡單而要明確的答覆清楚啦不要造成沒有必要這樣的一個一個一個一個分老但如果講程序來講我還是我還是會著重在如果"},{"start":15793.857,"end":15819.369,"text":"如果確實不管你台電自主檢驗的部分有出問題他另外講的換酬又有問題那顯然這個環境在進行中雖然是兩個是不一樣的程序但環境部還是要小心台電也是要小心才是一個正確的處理方式那我現在回到主題請教部長"},{"start":15822.104,"end":15844.932,"text":"如果各單位在辦這種相關的課程的這個研習那我們也有自己的這個公部門派出的這個講師然後講的內容如果跟這一個我們要講習的實質內容是完全脫鉤完全是不一樣的內容的情況之下你知道這事情你會怎麼處理"},{"start":15847.539,"end":15874.673,"text":"我會去了解他為什麼會這樣講因為我還沒有遇過所以也請委員指正那你已經快遇到了我先提醒一下我們台灣是在2019年成為亞洲第一個通過同婚的國家那也成為這個亞洲人權最進步的一個燈塔部長應該認同吧認同那如果有人在課堂上一直在講這個同婚是有問題的然後還在支持要反對"},{"start":15876.889,"end":15905.7,"text":"那這應該不是個人自由的意志嘛因為他是在一個公部門辦的課程裡面然後來講這些東西然後跟課程完全不搭嘎那如果部長了解事實上又發生在你的部會你會怎麼處理我會先來了解然後會先去了解他為什麼會這樣講然後如果是有一些概念上的不一樣的話我會請他去上性品的教育好只有這樣而已嗎"},{"start":15908.473,"end":15926.466,"text":"這個我們會如果查證屬實啦他今天我直接坦白講就這樣嘛他是在講什麼他是在講一個環境教育人員的認證研習班啦環境教育研習的認證這個這個範疇裡面跟同性婚姻有什麼關係如果都完全沒有關係的情況之下部長你會怎麼處理他說去你要叫他去上性評的課程還有勒"},{"start":15938.342,"end":15964.344,"text":"我先再給我了解一下好不好我是先假設說你了解起來事實上就是這個樣子你會怎麼處理嗎我會第一個是說了解說他的影響的程度那我們事實上如果有一些要處罰的事情的話我們都有一個機制例如說我要找專家來看他怎麼樣怎樣處置會比較好那如果說他是太超過的話我們會嚴格禁止他外出不能講這些事情"},{"start":15966.294,"end":15980.879,"text":"外出不能講這事情就是不能夠再上這個課我們會再了解一下因為我不知道這內容是什麼東西他就是要他就是是我們的一個授課講師啊然後是在處理環境階段人員認證的研習班上的課程講出這樣的內容啊"},{"start":15985.339,"end":16008.092,"text":"我已經明確的表達了啦剛剛部長有答覆我第一個就是說會要求他去上姓名課程嘛對不對第二個我是問實質的他這一個環境教育人員的一個認證怎麼會跟這個同性婚姻有任何的關係那你如果知道這是一個屬實那你會怎麼做出相關的處置"},{"start":16009.778,"end":16029.889,"text":"未來不應該他來做這樣的工作所以委員我們再來調查了解一下你知道他不只是這樣還有很多離譜的他包含放的影片你看這個影片部長你看一下我特別標出出來那個右上角這是簡體字他用中國相關的影片"},{"start":16038.844,"end":16065.03,"text":"來做課堂上的一個資料在播放那不只如此還有下一段你要看一下帶酸噎語指名道姓罵民間單位然後上面那一段還好沒有罵到你罵前院長只用自己人台灣人民民族性太民族沒有成果要依據民族性的做法哒哒哒"},{"start":16066.818,"end":16093.271,"text":"這個到底跟環境交易人員的認證有什麼關係沒有關係這個我們會來處理這個如果是屬實這一個環境部的這個講師而且又具備公務人員的身份部長要怎麼處置我們會組成專案小組來調查如果要處分的話我們會有一定的程序來去做懲處不只如此我今天是個學員"},{"start":16094.468,"end":16122.097,"text":"我來參加這個課程我要繳錢嘛 對不對那我繳了八千塊我得到課程的內容是這樣這八千塊怎麼處理好 委員我們再來了解一下好不好這個是不是它是每一堂課都這樣還是怎麼樣我們會再來了解不不不 不用到每一堂課只要一堂課是這個樣子這八千塊這八千塊我們去跟人家收了 意義何在"},{"start":16125.205,"end":16129.935,"text":"我覺得這是一個非常嚴重的事情請部長要慎重的來面對跟處理到現在還有這樣的"},{"start":16137.141,"end":16155.335,"text":"的官員的思維還有兼具這種行為然後又是在我們環境部辦的這種環境教育的人員的認證的一個研習班裡面我覺得是華天下是大雞就跟這件事情在講什麼言論自由的有的沒有的其實其實很"},{"start":16158.173,"end":16172.287,"text":"我覺得很不可思議啊我也不曉得怎麼再把這個事情描述因為我聽到這樣的訊息過程裡面我覺得真的對我而言啦台灣已經民主化到這樣程度然後現在還有我們官員在辦這樣的課程裡面"},{"start":16173.267,"end":16193.945,"text":"可以公然的在講堂上講出這樣的話然後用中國相關的影片來做他教學的相關的一些資料他到底要傳達什麼要做什麼動作政卿部長一定要非常慎重來面對這個事情好好把他處理好了好不好沒有問題 謝謝委員今天最主要還是針對空氣汙染的事情"},{"start":16195.706,"end":16219.29,"text":"環境部今天的報告說是全國的PM2.5從105年維克利方米到113年降到12.8維克利方米改善率是36%我要肯定環境部的同仁在107年空華的大修之後在這幾年的努力空污的數值確實是有下降沒有錯但是好還是更好環黨在去年就喊出應該設定在9維克利方米部長怎麼看"},{"start":16223.198,"end":16236.107,"text":"當然這個我當然是希望越低越好啦但是一個是可以達到的目標所以我們是希望說因為如果要往下走的話其實是真的需要很努力因為我們委員可以看這個數字一點點這個減量的幅度開始趨緩了"},{"start":16238.909,"end":16255.77,"text":"所以當然我現在目前我們提出來應該是淨零可以讓我們這個空瓶可以持續的改善所以也跟委員報告我們那時候算出來如果我們達到淨零的目標的話2031年如果-28加-2的話其實有機會PM2.5可以到接近10年平均值"},{"start":16257.307,"end":16282.714,"text":"2030年 我們是四年要檢討一次嘛 對不對那我們第一期109到112嘛 第二期是113到116嘛116當然還沒有到達嘛那當時我們這個聯軍的標準是從15降到12而且我們環境部還是號稱是這個亞洲最嚴格的標準喔 對不對但是今年報告書就已經說 已經快達標了但如果事實上喔 不等你再看一下"},{"start":16283.754,"end":16294.82,"text":"11到12的年均值分別是13.1還有14.7其實距離年均的所有微客立法院的目標真的是差不了多少快達標了這是這個我覺得"},{"start":16298.683,"end":16324.755,"text":"我剛剛特別提到好還是要更好所以我在這邊是不是可以建立部長你剛剛講的是2030年嘛那是不是我們是不是可以提早一點提早一點對嘛OK保委我們現在等於是說那個白皮書我們未來也希望引進更好的政策工具可以算出來我們到底什麼時候可以到因為我來的時候也跟同仁討論我們什麼時候可以到的確那個數字還出不來"},{"start":16325.715,"end":16346.708,"text":"我建議還是要提前啦好不好就是部長的魄力嘛那你講的白皮書剛剛有很多委員是要問你的規劃跟計畫嘛那白皮書也不是規劃跟計畫啊當然你的規劃跟計畫會配合你的白皮書嘛對 七成嘛所以七成我希望說2030年是不是可以再提早四年啊"},{"start":16347.387,"end":16376.967,"text":"有沒有可能非常辛苦要非常努力我們朝這個目標來打拚了好不好部長好那最後要請部長看這張圖齁就是今天的這個全國供氣品質的狀況黃澄澄的一片啦齁我今天特別安排這個主題是因為台灣的冰藥電平均雖然有明顯下降但到秋冬的這個季節齁因為季風的關係嘛對不對齁污染物污染物無法擴散所以就產生明顯的這個霧霾齁尤其這幾天民眾特別感受到"},{"start":16377.807,"end":16388.995,"text":"在環境部的報告中也明顯的發現其實這幾年的B2.5的均值雖然已經降下來但是每每到這個秋冬的時候它又往上在提高你看11年46、11249、113是20、1148.5了"},{"start":16396.96,"end":16422.093,"text":"上個禮拜的時候是排衛福部啦我特別跟部長提醒啦這個過年期間什麼地方的人數是會最多的地方觀光嘛 宗教嘛另外一個叫醫院嘛怎麼會在醫院發生這種急診有史以來的最嚴重的缺床的狀況然後這是急診議事會特別提出來的那我們每年都知道秋冬確實有氣候的問題"},{"start":16423.824,"end":16450.381,"text":"我們為什麼到現在沒有任何的相關的因應的作為不會讓這樣的一個空氣的汙染在秋冬的時候它所有的數值是往上在飆升的怎麼會沒有就不應該啊因為每年的秋冬它的特性有時候風向不一樣我不要求說它已經就是到那個我們要達到那個目標均值嘛但是它已經增加到百分之二十、三十、四十在這樣跳"},{"start":16452.626,"end":16470.401,"text":"這每天都要生活每天都要吸空氣啊但是你讓一季一個秋冬的季節反而更加的嚴重沒有辦法達到我們原有要求的這個目標跟這個標準情況之下這顯然有很大的一個改善跟檢討的空間嘛我不曉得在你的白皮書裡面針對秋冬有沒有特別因應的作為啊"},{"start":16471.301,"end":16498.603,"text":"我們這邊會提出一些例如說工業的啊或是交通改善的一些策略方式因為其實現在其實要很努力要到支柱必較啦啊其實這個真的要後面往往下做也跟委員報告就是進入一個深水區的不好做例如說汽機車的管制等等的這個其實是很辛苦的我們會來努力啦嘗試再把它報告白皮書裡面把它納入討論公眾的討論部長我用正面的方式來做鼓勵啦好不好也肯定嘛齁紅皮說"},{"start":16500.564,"end":16509.618,"text":"如果最近我們不算在台灣,大家說四八檔嘛,那怎麼知道處理,那不可能處理嘛,那要去處理的人,那是剛才說的嘛,那可以玩弄錢嘛,當時很多人這麼講啊,"},{"start":16511.465,"end":16538.564,"text":"都很進步 水利署做到了啦對 謝謝委員那時候的這個指示然後有完成了但是其實去年颱風多都有一些摧毀了那個海米颱風來之後後面又有兩個颱風那當然造成原有的不管是這種常規性的還是短暫性的這樣的一個相關的抑制措施顯然被破壞掉嘛那很快速的去做相關的一些運營它還是會降低這樣的一個風險跟傷害嘛"},{"start":16541.686,"end":16566.781,"text":"我是用本來說當時要整治這個紅白沙大家也都是有質疑嘛但是還是還是照這樣做到的對啊謝謝委員所以如果秋季秋冬季我們就會遇到特別的這種氣候問題應該有有相關依照部長的智慧跟各單位的這些同仁的智慧應該是可以來解決吧好不好好我用不來努力啦好不好會啊幾個月內提出相關的一些因應作為啦可以不可以好可以好謝謝謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":16574.716,"end":16575.457,"text":"請陳瑜委員發言麻煩請環境部部長來請部長"},{"start":16595.285,"end":16600.813,"text":"陳委員好部長好首先先感謝你我特別代表這個關山鎮長還有關山鎮民來謝謝您合訂了這個我們台東縣關山鎮的這個畜牧糞尿資源化處理的計畫"},{"start":16610.185,"end":16625.44,"text":"那因為關山鎮其實也是它的米也是很有名不輸池上那它的環境呢其實也是很漂亮那但是就跟池上比較起來可能關山鎮最近的觀光有一些尾數就是"},{"start":16626.161,"end":16647.593,"text":"在這個量化上有輸了池上一些我想有很多的居民可能到關山會有聞到這個一些這個豬糞的惡臭那我想這個計畫這個經費下去對關山鎮整個的這個這個空氣的這個改善是很重要的所以在這邊謝謝特別謝謝部長的支持"},{"start":16650.675,"end":16665.323,"text":"那今天因為今天安排的題目是這個引述氣象惡化對這個空氣品質影響嚴重那本席過去也特別提出就是東港有這個鮪魚季那台灣到這個美"},{"start":16667.344,"end":16687,"text":"每次到進入這個十月之後我特別給它取名就叫做空屋祭來提醒這個環境部要有對策那再來特別東部的這個特別是東部的這個衝擊影響很大尤其是我們這個台東的北南西在這個整個東北季風強風的吹襲之下揚起了這個紅白山我們吃飯要配紅白山那連這個市區都灰濛濛的影響這個民眾的生活"},{"start":16696.348,"end":16723.106,"text":"那你們今天的這個內容相較於過去有顯示說好像真的有開始在重視這個問題我想在這裡也先表達肯定之意那但是我也同時提醒就是說最近因為可能之前那個風災的關係包括到太馬里地區甚至快到南環那邊整個這個陽城的問題又起來所以這個我們可能未來再同步再來討論看怎麼解決"},{"start":16724.787,"end":16751.09,"text":"那事实上全球暖化跟这个产业经济的发展甚至在中国大陆的沙尘暴都是会影响整个空气品质的那这些都不是你们环境部的这个政策可以改变的这个我们可以理解那本席也认为就是说为了要改善这个空气品质在气象恶化的前提之下去这个精进AQI的监测那从而提出这个预警可能是"},{"start":16751.79,"end":16772.523,"text":"治標不治本那根本之計還是要控制控制空污的本土性污染源特別是在這個垃圾燃燒還有火災的問題我們從這方面來思考可能比較務實那部長你知道在各縣市的這個垃圾山常常會發生火災嗎"},{"start":16773.484,"end":16797.625,"text":"那這些燃燒的這個煙塵跟黛奧辛對於空污的影響是非常嚴重的好像這個好像就是人啊這個急性中毒一樣這個一次性的這個高濃度的這個高危害的毒性物質的曝露那你們現在處理的這個氣象惡化影響空氣品質的部分喔這是屬於我打個比方比較像是這個慢性中毒的問題齁那"},{"start":16799.686,"end":16817.726,"text":"我相信說部長應該可以接受這個急性中毒可能大家會好像跟民眾比較有這個切身關係也比較感受得到大家應該可以認同這樣的一個論述那部長我要請教說那你到底有沒有辦法讓這個垃圾山不要再發生火災"},{"start":16818.447,"end":16846.589,"text":"好 包委員 垃圾山第一個是要監控所以我們都現在在一些敏感危險的地方都有裝這個例如說紅外線的偵測儀然後還有自動灑水的設備但是其實就是幾個大的會發生火災那當然啦像苗栗前一陣子之前的幾個月前發生很大的這個火災所以現在這個的量可以說是大幅度的減少那我們事實上也是希望說明年年底因為我有對它承諾明年年底露天裸露垃圾山可以不要有"},{"start":16846.969,"end":16875.89,"text":"所以這個就可以徹底的解決這個問題因為按照部長的面相看來其實算是很有福報的我想在您這個併應之下您剛剛許諾的這個願景應該可以實現那再來談到這個垃圾管理廢棄物的非法棄置的事件是不斷的在發生那根本的問題其實就是出在最源頭的資源循環還有最末端的這個妥善掩埋的這兩個部分"},{"start":16876.741,"end":16890.039,"text":"那現在看起來這個環境部好像這個有這個頭尾兩頭燒的這個現象啦那更遑論說這個掩埋空間掩埋場空間不足"},{"start":16892.557,"end":16908.593,"text":"所以我們現在就是說既然沒有辦法去開發新的掩埋場那也退不動說活化舊的掩埋場然後非法棄置的事件不斷然後又不敢說嚴格執行就擔心這個垃圾沒有地方可以去就堆積如山"},{"start":16909.534,"end":16934.907,"text":"那這個源頭的這個我想要請教一下這個進度就是有關於源頭的這個資源循環促進法的進度目前是怎麼樣那在整個法規的架構上你有提出說要打掉重練那到底這個重點在哪裡要請這個部長說明一下目前這個草案就是何時可以預告"},{"start":16935.247,"end":16961.378,"text":"好 包委員這個我們經歷了很多的努力這個你說的6月8月10月都是我去年承諾的那現在的進度也跟各位委員說明其實第一個是我們其實進到院裡面跨部會的在討論當中那有些部會呢對於這個裡面條文有些意見但是現在快要收尾了我們希望在未來幾個月內可以先預公告所以目前按照這個時間的進度來看的話應該是要到下半年我希望可以趕快送到立法院來做"},{"start":16961.698,"end":16987.139,"text":"所以大概今年其實就是意思就是今年其實就是可以讓這個草案公告目前的進度因為其實我們已經在行政院內部是走到最後一里路了因為之前那個我們送的時候也不一樣部會提出不一樣的意見我們必須尊重各個部會在協談當中結論就是今年下半年下半年一定一定會送出來因為這個會期可能來不及"},{"start":16987.799,"end":17010.071,"text":"好 那我們很期待那還有這個尾端的這個掩埋空間不足然後根據環境部的資料截至2024年8月全國公有掩埋場景只有剩下354萬立方公尺可以用的空間我們的有害事業廢棄物的掩埋空間目前還足夠嗎"},{"start":17011.856,"end":17040.511,"text":"目前的確委員說的都是重點這種有害事業廢棄物現在已經有一些民營的但是其實各地的去化的量剛好都還在一個平衡之間那我們是希望說今年到明年有幾個新的焚化爐可以起來之後可以解決這個問題解決這個問題之後去化的管道或是掩埋場火化再利用管道通了之後其實未來的量這個問題就可以再處理"},{"start":17040.811,"end":17068.951,"text":"是我想你們有重視到這個問題是很好一關一關的在卡在那邊好那現在我們要進入的比較實質那也關心一下我們台東最後就是這個野埋場活化緩慢的問題我想要請教部長台東總共有幾個野埋場委員上面是13個好我都幫你寫好答案你怎麼那麼好心好那個目前活化這個野埋場總共做了幾個"},{"start":17071.676,"end":17086.081,"text":"這個我沒有掌握目前最新的 原來做了兩個哪兩個東河跟鹿野我看你是在民防你們這幾年來2016年一直到2022年"},{"start":17091.161,"end":17106.186,"text":"就是我看這幾年你們全部全台大概多少300個300多個也蠻多你們才總共做了做了12個啊12個不多對啊台東佔了兩個嗎"},{"start":17108.354,"end":17127.033,"text":"是我們總共做了22個因為全台現在在營運中的掩埋場大概有107個那我們活化有做了22個那台中我的印象裡是兩個但是你為什麼講不出來那兩個是什麼因為沒有到現場去直接的勘察它的進度"},{"start":17129.549,"end":17158.185,"text":"我其實也是聽不太懂你們做了哪幾個就哪幾個啊台東13個哪兩個你不會問一下你們單位都沒有人可以支援嗎因為我這裡資料是沒有喔你說有兩個我們現在資料是兜不起來的喔你是不是平常人緣不太好為什麼沒有人來救你都沒有人要支援嗎還是你記錯了根本不在台東"},{"start":17160.955,"end":17187.275,"text":"我想這樣子來這幾張是我們Google這個台東野脈場呈現出來的狀況這個大家說台東好山好水啦但是部長你覺得這幾張照片這樣能看嗎完全不能看沒錯而且你要看喔來第一張是不是離海邊很近台東最漂亮的是什麼"},{"start":17188.206,"end":17209.459,"text":"海灘不是海灘對就是海岸線整個都很漂亮嘛所以大家想只要颱風一來每次最嚴重都是台東嘛那颱風這樣一刮一吹這所有垃圾還有一些這些污染都跑到那個就跑到海水裡面去啦所以"},{"start":17212.247,"end":17238.873,"text":"部長我覺得是這樣啦或許在未來我們焚化爐啟動那這樣可能會改善這個掩埋場的狀況啦但是這麼多掩埋了這麼多的垃圾而且早年沒有落實這個垃圾分類的問題所以他一定要先先去處理過這個挖出來的垃圾才能拿去燃燒嘛不然我們焚化爐很快就壞掉啦"},{"start":17239.893,"end":17261.303,"text":"所以我想在這個同時我也不想說等你活化做完我覺得在目前已經啟動這個焚化爐啟動那同步做活化的這個同時我們是不是可以因應台東它是一個我們很我們大部分人就仰賴這個觀光在生活"},{"start":17262.243,"end":17272.271,"text":"還有這個農業那你是不是可以同步來做這個美化這件事情美化我們台東的這些掩埋場我這樣的要求應該合理吧"},{"start":17273.55,"end":17296.965,"text":"委員這個其實因為每個地方能夠處理的機制不一樣那也歡迎委員我們是不是下次有機會去考察一下我們可以一起去看那你們要下去之前當然你要做個排序我們一天看不完13個哪幾個最有問題我們最需要去看的那因為我要舉例比如說過去都立有個天空之境"},{"start":17297.785,"end":17325.343,"text":"天空很美我們每次帶朋友去的時候想要欣賞那個美麗的天空可是呢我們覺得很丟臉因為我們必須先經過那個很醜的掩埋場然後還要聞到那個惡臭所以我想基於這個台東算是觀光重鎮所以我在這裡要求你們是不是在我們初步可以你們利用兩個月的時間請你們那個環管署啊盤點這個研議那如何這個來"},{"start":17327.965,"end":17353.233,"text":"演繹這個如何美化台東所有的掩埋場這件事情沒問題但是我覺得要一步一步的去看等一下你不是環管署的吧他是環管署副署長新的嗎沒有沒有副署長原來的我以為換人了沒有所以署長是沒來對是因為我要質詢嗎沒有是因為今天是空屋所以跟他們環管署比較沒有關"},{"start":17354.056,"end":17369.923,"text":"好 那總之環關署這個重要的任務就交給你們希望你們可以如期完成好 那中間我們有時間再去安排這樣好 沒問題 沒問題好 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長好 接下來請洪文凱委員來做詢答主席 謝謝"},{"start":17381.55,"end":17382.313,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請彭部長請部長"},{"start":17387.769,"end":17411.252,"text":"部長好部長先請教一下在氣候變遷因應法裡面很明文規定說2050需要進行碳排的一個方向那我們各部會都要動起來對不對那其中環境部這邊應該也針對是說我們現在行政院有個大的政策方向就是認為是說新的這個建案或者是重大的公共工程要"},{"start":17412.082,"end":17437.134,"text":"零碳建築或是淨零碳建築嗎對不對對零碳建築是什麼基本上建築還是會排碳的但是他基本上能夠盡量的減少例如說要用用資源循環的水泥或是建材等等的所以基本上我們叫做淨零碳的建築沒有辦法做到完全的這個零碳沒有辦法做零碳建築但是可以用其他的政策方向手段或者是說用"},{"start":17437.734,"end":17454.646,"text":"不管是發電方式還是說那個減少碳排的部分來去做箱底對就是說我說的如果建築物就是建築物的材料的本身來先做處理那會不會因為要追求零碳建築而造成說建築物的安全打折"},{"start":17455.406,"end":17481.829,"text":"不會 其實這個都建築物都有一個規範的例如說什麼樣的像有些 例如說水泥或是建築物的材料它都要有一些參比的有些可以用自願循環有些是用原生的材料不一樣好來我們看一下所以即便是鋼筋水泥大樓等等的也不會因為說要追求零碳或淨零碳建築而造成安全性有打折當然建築物安全性是一件最重要考慮的事情"},{"start":17482.409,"end":17500.736,"text":"沒有錯嘛所以其實本席過去到現在也認為是說就是要這樣的一個方向但很遺憾啊今天本席在交通委員會質詢工程委員會的主委的時候他居然講是說沒有零碳建築啊而且他居然講說如果要追求零碳建築的話就會有安全上的一個打折"},{"start":17501.616,"end":17523.588,"text":"我覺得期期為不可而且覺得說不可思議啊所以部長是不是在這邊本席也提醒因為公共工程委員會是我們全國重大工程的主管機關嘛淨零碳排氣候變遷是環境部主管沒有錯但是我們重大工程如果說能夠來做一個往"},{"start":17524.298,"end":17553.605,"text":"零碳建築或淨零碳建築這邊來追求的話它是可以趨於這方向而不應該是雙頭馬車嘛對 包委員其實這個建築物的更新是我們在我們這個淨零的分類是內政部在主管的所以其實內政部有提出例如說新型的建築或是老舊的建築怎麼去改變沒錯 因為本席也有看到我們行政部門也有這樣的方向嘛但是絕對不存在是說新型的建築裡面我們完全放棄零碳建築或是淨零碳建築嘛"},{"start":17554.125,"end":17582.227,"text":"是吧沒錯所以我們國家重大工程的方向其實就是希望現在所提出來的就是以零碳建築或淨零碳建築來去做一個規劃是吧沒錯好 謝謝部長部長 那拉回來今天本席看到就是所謂的這個空氣品質監測的部分那你在這邊結論裡面有強調是說要成立空氣品質監測跟預報中心我想應該會是更精確的能夠掌握我們全台灣的一個空氣品質"},{"start":17583.448,"end":17611.525,"text":"它其實是因為我們過去這個監測跟預測是在兼職師另外一個師然後應變又是大氣師是兩個師那在這當中呢有一些模糊的地帶我們希望把它整併經過我們部務規則的處務規則的調整額外到大氣師然後成立一個中心能夠變成說監測預測應變合為一體來考慮這個事情是本席認同這樣的方向因為重點在於是監測完之後要怎麼樣運用以及讓"},{"start":17612.446,"end":17628.602,"text":"地方政府也好 中央政府也好來去做一個這個因應嘛 對不對那本席有先看了一下我們現在有所謂的空氣品質監測網未來是不是你這所謂的一個監測預報中心就會結合現行有的這個監測網"},{"start":17629.983,"end":17655.355,"text":"能夠讓我們國人有更充足或是準確的一個資訊對 其實就原來這組人移到大氣室去但是他必須加上應變的任務使命在裡面是 那我想請教一下現在的這個監測網裡面我們總共有多少個一個監測站我們環境部的大概是六十六個嘛七十八個然後還有很多的這種所謂的微型感測器大概一萬多個"},{"start":17656.596,"end":17659.019,"text":"地方咧中央其實是87個87個87站那地方"},{"start":17664.581,"end":17688.352,"text":"28個 34在這都是你們自己的官網數字啦不是要考你這個部分啦但是我現在講的是說中央87地方34那但是淨零碳排的一個部分或是空氣品質的部分剛剛其實很多人一直提到中火本席過去到現在一直強調其實北台灣影響更大的其實是林口火力發電廠因為林口火力發電廠燃煤"},{"start":17691.094,"end":17710.705,"text":"從2015年10年前增加了第三號機組開始到現在已經也經過10年了到目前為止林口火力發電廠的一個偵測部分它是由地方政府來偵測而我們今天所討論很多的包括說PM2.5的部分因為這個算是新的一個很客觀的指標"},{"start":17712.267,"end":17729.056,"text":"部長您知道現在林口火力發電廠此時此刻PM2.5的指數多少嗎要現場查一下要現場查一下你要不要查一下我手邊沒有我直接告訴你沒有因為這一個監測數字在你們的官網上面它是寫未監測"},{"start":17731.465,"end":17744.44,"text":"林坤火力發電廠居然這個我也很訝異我說實在的話我剛剛特別查了一下我也很訝異我要求我要拜託的是這應該是要把它納入一個數字它只有監測PM10但是PM2.5居然沒有"},{"start":17748.246,"end":17764.973,"text":"就是說我剛剛查了在中央的87個站裡面有包括PM10 PM2.5等相關的數字但是在地方的部分我不知道是只有林口火力發電廠這邊獨特還是其他地方的監測站都一樣他居然沒有把PM2.5的資料給變成是一個監測的資料"},{"start":17768.394,"end":17784.599,"text":"我覺得是不是如果未來我們變成說空氣品質監測跟預報中心整合在一起能夠再檢討一下中央地方的一些監測站能夠讓數字能夠更準確尤其是我相信我們很多優秀公務同仁有可能坐在林口"},{"start":17785.666,"end":17805.436,"text":"有可能住在我們新北林口火力發電廠三部燃煤機組火力全開的時候真的對於我們整體北台灣的空氣品質有一定程度的影響部長能夠做到嗎因為那個站是台電提供的嘛台電要不要請副總回應一下來報告委員謝謝委員剛剛的詢問"},{"start":17810.714,"end":17835.282,"text":"那個我們各個電廠含林口電廠我們本身都有跟當地的環保局有SIMS上的連線所有的資訊都有連在上面所有資訊都有的話就不會說網站上面沒秀出來這不是我自己這個是你可以現在去看你可以現在去看因為部長來拉回來部長"},{"start":17837.493,"end":17859.326,"text":"這個是很實際的數字我更期待的是未來你整合你今天的報告嘛第四點嘛成立空氣品質監測與預報中心我剛才已經先肯定你喔就是說要整合幾個部會預測以及之後的應用大氣的部分一起納進來那本席也期待是說你的官網上要更精進應該是說有一站式的網頁"},{"start":17861.688,"end":17879.886,"text":"讓國人都可以很清楚明白今天我想了解我地方附近的空氣品質的時候我去點馬上就看得出來那其實這個部分我想技術絕對不難但為什麼說過去沒有把PA2.5的這個數據給放進去而你在上面網站上面秀出來是未監測"},{"start":17883.164,"end":17892.433,"text":"這一點我想我這樣提出來已經算是很公允我們再來瞭解一下也希望讓大家都能夠理解你有PM10但PM2.5居然沒有這樣可以嗎"},{"start":17895.891,"end":17914.973,"text":"可以做一個檢討改進好不好我大概簡單講一下我那時候我們網頁上是把環保署的環境部的78個站放進來這是第一個再來就是地方的那再來就是四個單位包括台電、中鋼等等那些建設站的方案還有特殊性工業區全部放進來"},{"start":17915.794,"end":17926.069,"text":"那每一個站應該要測什麼項目呢那就各個站原先設站的時候就已經決定了並不是連線的問題所以那邊回頭要去看一下這些站哪一些項目在增減那個我們再"},{"start":17927.895,"end":17952.561,"text":"不好意思 朝偉站起來 你們還是沒有抓到問題啊PN2.5是不是現在的顯學 是嘛你今天通盤的書面報告裡面都認為說PN2.5是影響空汙甚至造成說肺腺癌 我還沒有請衛福部上來2015年開始林口火力發電廠增加三部機組之後過去這十年有沒有針對我們這附近肺腺癌的人口比例有沒有成長"},{"start":17953.681,"end":17973.39,"text":"要不要去檢討要不要去監測要不要去了解要不要去做一個調查那我現在已經講了如果說過去我們沒有這樣的一個數據我也覺得很離譜是火力發電廠旁邊居然沒有監測PN2.5的數值那如果說真的沒有的話是不是應該要增加相關的設備台電應該吧"},{"start":17978.274,"end":17996.867,"text":"那既然這樣的話是不是做一個通盤檢討因應我們現在的中心可能未來官網上線會做一個更先進的一個數據的一個呈現也讓國人更清楚明白了解環境部是玩真的是要真真正正監測我們的空汙改善環境好嗎好沒問題謝謝好謝謝紅衛謝謝部長接下來請陳培宇委員來做選擇"},{"start":18007.596,"end":18035.669,"text":"對 好 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝主席有請部長請部長陳委員好好 部長好部長我今天關於空評的部分我們就直接切入我關於談兒少的部分那我其實有看到部長在您上任之後在非常多政策的推廣跟宣示上我看到部長想要對兒少關注的決心確實我在你們很多資料裡面都看到那我們現在就來討論一些比較細緻的做法"},{"start":18036.869,"end":18052.144,"text":"因為我相信對於環境部來說其實兒少的議題絕對相對於過去是陌生的因為他關注的是人他關注的是更多原本你們所不理解的我們來看一下報導者之前有說兒童呼吸穴受到空汙的影響我相信相關報導你們應該都看過我就不再贅述我們來往下看"},{"start":18056.488,"end":18071.43,"text":"那因為我報告是因為一直長期關心兒少所以如果來看空污空瓶的議題放在兒少身上其實已經很多學術研究都告訴我們小孩是相對脆弱的族群因為他們的呼吸陽量還有毒物代謝的狀態還有他可能會造成哪些影響好 往下"},{"start":18073.012,"end":18083.777,"text":"那如果部長您也認同在空污跟空瓶議題把兒少的權利放進環境部未來施政的重點那我想要問部長往下一樣部長你有沒有看過這個兒童權利公約CRC國內法化之後台灣在111年受到國際專家審查當時的國際審查結論性意見裡面給環境部的建議是說請針對整體環境的變遷對兒少健康所帶來的衝擊"},{"start":18101.004,"end":18130.684,"text":"在2022年的時候提醒環境部要有所回應當然這個回應不是只是書面回應更希望環境部是有積極的作為但是我們看到在2024年的時候環境部給的回應只有說整體空評標準會加嚴但是到底對於整體兒少的協助還有整體兒少環境的改善如何真的可以促進我剛剛說實質的改變說實話我們到現在在環境部的報告並沒有看見我個人覺得很可惜我們來往下看"},{"start":18132.286,"end":18135.472,"text":"那在整理了很多资料之后下一张"},{"start":18136.977,"end":18163.953,"text":"我們其實跟很多專家學者也討論過我們也看了非常多的資料我想我有七個訴求非常非常的具體但他可能在很多政策上包含還有跟縣市政府的對接跟討論他都需要環境部衛福部教育部未來一起努力合作這邊第一個是空瓶的法規還有兒少法規的對接怎麼說呢目前跟部長說環境部空瓶的法規沒有落實到校園"},{"start":18164.953,"end":18182.264,"text":"甚至在未服務的兒少法裡面的法規也沒有環境部的角色也就是他確實有跨部會工作的困難部長我們時間有限了你不用急著看資料因為我發現如果要把我們今天講這七個做完絕對不是一天兩天也絕對不是一年兩年"},{"start":18183.184,"end":18206.15,"text":"他需要日积月累所以我觉得今天我只是想要借由这个议题日后开启跟环境部在儿少空品上的讨论跟实际的推动第二个我们希望可以加强校园空品的法规跟执法目前呢室内空品法要求校园要做空品检测可是在相关执法公布的场所里面却不含校园"},{"start":18207.21,"end":18215.117,"text":"好再來第三我們希望可以加強有害空氣污染物的檢測跟稽查原本預計要納管72種可是公告的時候只剩22種我們認為應該要滾動檢討相關的加強監測還有稽查第四個我們希望可以加強HFPS資訊公開跟易讀性我知道環境部目前有所謂的空品監測年報可是所謂的有害空氣污染物卻沒有相關的報告"},{"start":18232.771,"end":18257.461,"text":"另外我們雖然有特殊性工業區有監測相關數值但有公開上網可是不易讀也不及時我目前都談到的是跟校園而上有關都還沒有牽扯到其他產業的問題第五個校園跟工業區周遭化射空氣品質維護區這個其實是我們應該有能力比較快可以做到第六個我們希望可以針對敏感跟弱勢族群提出有害空污之健康風險評估報告"},{"start":18258.982,"end":18277.988,"text":"那關於這件事情要如何針對兒少老人慢性病這些脆弱敏感族群目前只有NGO跟很多學者在做我相信環境部應該可以有角色那當然也包含衛福部接下來最後一個環境正義地圖我們希望可以了解多重污染的交織性目前環境部的相關資料是把水"},{"start":18279.068,"end":18299,"text":"還有空氣還有土的污染資料全部都分開那我們認為在多重污染困境的環境的不正義社區的可能性也許在回應到我剛剛說的國際兒童人權專家審查的時候環境部到底對於兒少的這個部分做了哪些事情我認為最後一個可能也會幫我們環境部加分"},{"start":18299.48,"end":18322.75,"text":"好 我的這些訴求我剛開始已經說了一點都不容易達到但是我很希望環境部在後續可以有相關的動作跟相關政策推進可不可以請部長回應一下好 謝謝委員提出這麼寶貴的意見這個兒少的問題包含了這個我們過去的確是例如說在室內空瓶污染的監測或是中小學有一些規範但是事實上委員前面提到的這種所謂的對兒少的國際的公約的部分"},{"start":18325.331,"end":18350.477,"text":"我會回去再瞭解我們是不是可以有一個更好的一個回應那委員這個七點呢是不是容許我納入我們的空品的白皮書因為我們正在擬定那我們絕對會我承諾會加強這個兒少的保育因為這個是我們的未來我們要投資他們所以這個部分我們會把它納入進來那部長我是不是最後可以拜託由我們辦公室先來主動找你們召開一次會議我們把相關細節來討論之後我們各自努力好嗎好沒問題謝謝委員那我們再找你們開會謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":18353.669,"end":18380.736,"text":"好 謝謝省委 謝謝部長接下來請徐欣穎委員 徐欣穎委員 徐欣穎委員不在請徐滬軌委員 徐滬軌委員 徐滬軌委員不在請葉仁芝委員 葉仁芝委員 葉仁芝委員不在請鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員不在好 本會議選打全部結束委員黃秀芳 蘇清泉所提順便質詢列入紀錄刊登公報那現在做一下決定"},{"start":18381.556,"end":18395.007,"text":"第一報告及詢問完畢二委員執行為其答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內已順便答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定那本次會議到此結束現在休息"},{"start":18410.243,"end":18413.207,"text":"在這裡面那個...對,小心一點我去幹嘛,你再小心一點謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16522","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16522","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea826f2beb725bce9569e13353c436ea857a524d1b3d409a1a14f76783615688625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-17","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-17T08:31:17+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T14:33:00+08:00","duration":21703,"影片長度":"06:01:43","委員發言時間":"08:31:17 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杨茜茜"},{"start":1872.99,"end":1900.516,"text":"好大家早安請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員14人已足法定人數好各位同仁我們開會現在進行報告事項請宣讀上次議事錄立法院第11屆第三會期內政委員會第二次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年3月13日星期四上午9時4分至下午1時12分地點紅樓202會議室出席委員蘇巧慧委員等14人練習委員林倩琪委員等22人"},{"start":1901.576,"end":1919.634,"text":"列席官員 內政部政務次長董建宏暨相關人員經濟部能源署副署長吳志偉暨相關人員台灣電力股份有限公司專業總工程師郭芳楠交通部陸政及道安司司長黃韻貴暨相關人員金融監督管理委員會保險局副局長陳清源主席牛召集委員許庭"},{"start":1920.314,"end":1931.146,"text":"報告事項一 宣讀上次會議錄決定確定二 邀請內政部部長劉思芳經濟部交通部金融監督管理委員會台灣電力股份有限公司舊公寓大廈裝設電動車輛充電裝置之相關法令國家標準建築設計管理維護火災預防措施及相關保險類別與要保人之認定進行專題報告並備諮詢"},{"start":1941.778,"end":1959.449,"text":"内政部政务次长董建宏经济部能源署副署长吴志伟报告委员苏巧慧等24人咨询分别由内政部政务次长董建宏及相关人员交通部路政及道安司司长黄运贵及相关人员台湾电力股份有限公司专业总工程师郭芳兰经济部能源署副署长吴志伟金融监督管理委员会"},{"start":1960.49,"end":1987.258,"text":"保險局副局長陳清源答覆說明決定一登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束二委員高金素梅丁雪莊翁小林王逸川所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報三書面質詢即位及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另一書面答覆並複製本會宣讀完畢好請問各位委員上次會議意思錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有好沒有那我們就確定了意思錄確定"},{"start":1989.261,"end":1991.683,"text":"好 現在繼續進行討論事項 請宣讀審查委員賴世寶等22人擬據紀念日及節日實施法草案案審查委員高金素美等18人擬據紀念日及節日實施條例草案案審查委員陳瑩等16人擬據國家紀文化節日實施條例草案案審查委員吳麗華等17人擬據國家紀念日及節日實施法草案案"},{"start":2012.865,"end":2039.708,"text":"审查委员刘许婷等22人拟据纪念日及节日实施条例草案审查委员陈玉珍等16人拟据中华民国国定纪念日与节日实施法草案审查台湾民众党党团拟据纪念日及节日实施条例草案审查委员郑天才等18人委员王洪威等19人分别拟据国家纪念日及节日实施法草案审查委员徐玉珍等19人拟据纪念日及节日实施法草案审查委员杨琼英等31人"},{"start":2041.129,"end":2062.73,"text":"委員林思明等20人委員翁少林等18人委員葉元志等21人分別擬據紀念日及節日實施條例草案審查委員林倩琦等20人擬據國家紀念日及節日實施法草案審查委員許志杰等30人擬據國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案審查委員魯明哲等16人委員羅廷偉等23人分別擬據"},{"start":2064.091,"end":2091.75,"text":"紀念日及節日實施條例草案案審查委員洪孟凱等16人擬拒國定假日罰草案案審查委員張志倫等18人擬拒紀念日及節日實施條例草案案宣讀完畢好 跟委員會報告本日議程所列討論事項第21至第26案不予審查 其餘合併詢答現在介紹在場官員及列席委員首先介紹委員的部分我們有張志倫委員"},{"start":2095.782,"end":2121.694,"text":"我們高金素美委員王美惠委員蘇巧惠委員黃婕委員我們非本委的朋友我們洪孟愷委員賴思寶委員陳玉珍委員主席官員部分請要介紹我們內政部部長劉思芳部長"},{"start":2125.134,"end":2151.071,"text":"原住民族曾志勇主任委員勞動部政務次長李建宏次長我們為了節省會議時間,剩下就請大家參閱相關的一些資料因為今天我們進行法案的審查,所以我們先進行提案說明的部分首先請洪孟楷委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2157.372,"end":2183.735,"text":"主席今天在場歷史的官員以及我們所有的立法委員感謝我們的召委能夠安排這一次紀念日及節目實施法案的草案修法的討論國定假日屬於文化憲法的範疇具有我國重要文化歷史社會政治等意涵關乎國民的休息權跟自我發展權的實現應該享有法律上制度性保障的地位"},{"start":2184.375,"end":2206.757,"text":"我國現行的國定假日法規定是由行政命令未接的紀念日及節日實施辦法長久以來專由行政機關自行篡定而導致於補班補課之亂實為不妥有立法明定的必要也是讓我們中華民國法治化能夠可長可久台灣整體的勞動工時居高不下根據世界衛生組織與國際勞工組織"},{"start":2210.06,"end":2228.719,"text":"針對長工時的全球研究顯示工時過長容易使人們的生活支離破碎而導致身體跟心靈健康出現問題同時工時的增加人們花在運動休息照顧陪伴家庭等勞動力再生產的時間將大幅下降出現壓力惡性循環"},{"start":2229.6,"end":2245.252,"text":"基於全面降低我國工時的精神本席提案國定假日法草案除現有12天因返還過去為了配合雙週84小時改為單週40小時的工時政策而砍掉的7天國定假日以外"},{"start":2246.311,"end":2268.797,"text":"本期更強調降低法定工時跟砍價是兩件事情因此工時降低單週四十小時之後其實並不需要拿七天假去補週休二日增訂國定假日帶來的效益除了是跟進國際的趨勢還能提升國民投入家庭照護的時間進而帶動家庭分工促進社"},{"start":2269.637,"end":2287.087,"text":"性別平等跟改善少子化的狀況同時更能夠帶動整體經濟的正向發展因此紀念民主發展尊重多元文化以及傳統民俗價值落實國民對休息權的保障本席樂見此次的排審"},{"start":2287.907,"end":2310.537,"text":"即便各委員目前各自版本對於天數、放假名稱有不同的意見跟想法我們都希望草野的委員能夠針對提案來好好的實質進行討論認真地看待本次的修法讓過去排審多次但是卻無疾而終的國定假日法能夠真真正正在本會期有實際的進展"},{"start":2312.358,"end":2336.394,"text":"對國人 對台灣 對中華民國都是可長可久的修法方向以上 謝謝好 謝謝侯孟愷委員接下來我們請張志倫委員進行提案說明主席 各位委員 各位官員 大家早"},{"start":2338.127,"end":2363.842,"text":"非常感謝我們招委今天安排這樣的主題有關於紀念日及節日實施條例草案台灣人一年工時破2000小時根據民調顯示有過半數的民眾支持還勞工7天假也希望在辛勤工作之餘多一些喘息的時間正如本席的紀念日及節日實施條例草案"},{"start":2364.562,"end":2393.048,"text":"包括原住民日、國家防災日、行縣紀念日等應放假一天並針對警消朋友推動警察節、消防節亦可依主管機關規定放假紀念日代表國家的歷史與價值觀如228紀念日、國慶日、解嚴紀念日等這些日子提醒我們過去的重大事件也讓社會能銘記歷史並從中學習原住民日、警察節"},{"start":2394.992,"end":2409.274,"text":"消防節也能體現出我們對每一位國民的重視如果沒有法律保障未來節日可能會因為政府更迭或不同政黨的立場造成更動刪減甚至影響到放假的制度"},{"start":2409.815,"end":2431.747,"text":"立法可以讓這些紀念日更具法律的基礎而確保他們不會被隨意的修改例如勞工放假的安排如果沒有明確規範可能會發生公司與員工認知不一致的情形影響工作與休假的平衡因此透過法律來明定哪些假日應該放假"},{"start":2432.347,"end":2457.069,"text":"如何调整放假能让劳工更安心也让企业有更明确的依据来安排工作此外台湾是个多元包容的社会不同的族群都有自己的传统节日例如各原住民族的岁时忌遗各家传统节日等但这些日子如果没有法律的保障可能不容易被重视透过立法"},{"start":2457.509,"end":2477.331,"text":"能確保這些文化傳統被尊重及傳承讓不同的族群都能在重要日子好好慶祝自己的文化也能促進社會的團結與和諧謝謝好 謝謝張志倫委員提案說明接下來我們請陳玉珍委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2483.275,"end":2509.806,"text":"謝謝主席 各位委員本期提出中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法主要是因為目前我國各項紀念日及節日之名稱日期與放假方法應涉及人民的權利義務關係依照中央法規標準法第五條之規定關於人民之權利義務者應以法律定制但長年以來我們卻一直用實施辦法來規範是有未接過的之餘其次在本期所提出版本之中"},{"start":2510.606,"end":2532.303,"text":"特別增訂823紀念日在當前大家看到現在在戰爭與和平的抉擇關口民心動盪不安之際更顯重要我們可以拿俄烏戰爭當作借鏡這一場戰爭已經打了三年多至今仍未結束但是烏克蘭人民曾經美麗的家園現在已經都變成了斷緣殘壁這段痛苦的歷史記憶"},{"start":2538.948,"end":2553.844,"text":"當年也是有同樣深刻的體驗1958年就是民國47年的8月23日一共有超過47萬發的炮彈落在金門的島上造成金門的軍民死傷無數防射損毀家人"},{"start":2556.787,"end":2582.138,"text":"家園殘破 流離失所最後即便最後是在金門的全國居民一心上下一心共同守衛國家獲得了最後的勝利但這個和平的代價是相當相當可怕而且是可貴的這個歷史不應該被遺忘我們常說只有在經歷過戰爭的可怕才能夠深刻了解到和平的彌足珍貴尤其在這個時候"},{"start":2583.719,"end":2603.098,"text":"臺灣面臨準戰爭的這個邊緣臺澎金馬的這個和平與安全是當年金門全縣居民用生命用家園拼死所務所換來的因此和平紀念日的訂定不僅可以讓全國人民記得當年慘痛的戰爭記憶更重要的是要喚醒大家對於和平的這個珍惜"},{"start":2605.063,"end":2631.833,"text":"我們也了解到這個假日的多寡牽涉到勞資雙方與國家的整體競爭力因此今天感謝召委排審此案一方面將國定假日的方價依據提升至法律位階二方面則期盼是朝野各黨團能夠正視823這段血淚歷史教訓用這場居民同心拼死捍衛家園的歷史團結民心共同捍衛中華民國以上 謝謝各位支持"},{"start":2633.394,"end":2636.467,"text":"好 謝謝陳玉珍委員接下來我們請賴世保委員提案說明"},{"start":2646.623,"end":2656.529,"text":"謝謝主席及格行進那麼謝謝主席派今天這個案子今天這個案子非常重要在過去我們政府的規定有關於國定假日都是行政部門在訂每次我去問人事總處的人事長的時候他一定提給內政部他都說這個內政部決定的內政部長決定的所以今天內政部長來這裡"},{"start":2671.517,"end":2674.04,"text":"這是第一點我要強調的就是今天這麼多的提案這麼多的委員就希望把國定假日法治化可見得這是代表多數的民意我們希望行政部門能夠傾聽這樣的民意那麼第二點我看了一下這個內政部啊回應我的提案啊這裡面講得不清不楚啊"},{"start":2696.181,"end":2698.142,"text":"他這裡面也不敢說絕對的反對我當然就不會贊成我主要還是說要更多的社會的共識整個社會的共識是什麼各位我分兩點來說明第一點"},{"start":2710.148,"end":2732.117,"text":"我們的台灣人的這個每年的工時去年為主2020小時2020個小時在整個來講全世界排第五名在新加坡在亞洲排第二名僅次於新加坡所以台灣是一個過老的地方"},{"start":2733.24,"end":2748.386,"text":"我們的過勞而且看得到過去有過勞死的案子比比皆是都常常看得到有過勞死的現象所以適度的一個增加的放假日其實是有必要當然這個放假日一定是有根據的比如說勞工的訴求勞工一直講還我七天假七天假怎麼來的砍了七天假怎麼砍的因為我們週休二日就砍了七天假"},{"start":2761.487,"end":2774.111,"text":"這個帳很好算這個帳很好算所以恢復勞工的七天假是有必要的另外我第二點要說明的特別要說明的我的草案裡面提了幾個假日但是我特別提一個12月25日的行限紀念日現在的政府只要立法院通過案子一不喜歡呼籲實現暫時處分"},{"start":2787.902,"end":2795.006,"text":"然後賴總統也好卓院長也好開口閉口都是合乎憲法合乎憲法合乎憲法各位我們的大長官最大的兩號人物都在強調這部憲法要合乎這部憲法因此行憲紀念日是何等的重要因為它是國家的大法我們的總統我們的行政院長現在幾乎每天都在處理而且"},{"start":2816.383,"end":2818.124,"text":"行政院長卓榮泰這幾天下相還講了自己講了他是復議的一個院長他根據什麼復議根據中華民國的憲法給他的憲政上的權力所以這個行憲是多麼重要因此本席在我的體驗裡面對這個"},{"start":2837.301,"end":2842.865,"text":"我這個就是請了我們的行政長官特別是內政部長其他的假日可能你有些不同看法但是我希望我們大家一致來支持12月25日的行縣紀念日要定成國家的一個假日這是非常非常的重要另外"},{"start":2862.386,"end":2878.055,"text":"那最後一點我們希望五月一號從今年開始就全國放假吧現在五月一號一國兩制只有勞工放假他的家屬如果公務員不放假如果其他的行業服務業也不放假"},{"start":2879.469,"end":2882.692,"text":"這個東西啊這個造成這個其實社會是滿困擾的啦我們所以在此啦我特別是這個拜託內政部長等一下在審查的時候真的體恤民意體恤民意第一台灣人的工時太長第二個"},{"start":2897.424,"end":2904.491,"text":"行縣紀念日絕對有必要恢復第三個這個勞動節五月一號絕對有必要全國放假不分職業不分這個所有的地方謝謝也請各位指教請各位支持謝謝好謝謝賴世寶委員的說明下一位我們請高金素美委員提案說明"},{"start":2928.989,"end":2957.085,"text":"今天是紀念日和節日實施條例草案的提案說明首先增訂國定假日保障勞工的基本權益這是從2000年開始勞工就一直在爭取更好的工時跟休息日但是我們的政府拖延了15年才將工時縮短到每週40個小時卻在同時也取消了7天的國定假日"},{"start":2957.805,"end":2981.039,"text":"劳工成为唯一的牺牲者现在我们大家都在为劳工的基本休息权在发声所以我强烈的要求要恢复七天的假期让劳工得到应该要有的尊重和他们的权利第二个我要谈的是原住民族的岁时计议"},{"start":2982.06,"end":3000.465,"text":"原住民的睡食既以促进全国人民对原住民的文化的尊重还有学习原住民族各族都有各自独特的文化的伴俗还有方式像是阿美族的一粒性大概是五到七天"},{"start":3001.565,"end":3021.101,"text":"還有賽夏族的巴斯達艾艾琳紀大概要30天所以我們從這幾個例子來看它呈現出的是各族不同的文化還有族群關係而這些文化不僅僅要受到保護當然更重要的是要予以傳承"},{"start":3022.242,"end":3035.436,"text":"所以我們在提案當中我們希望各族的歲時祭儀能夠有三天的假期讓我們的族人可以回去來接受文化的傳承"},{"start":3037.498,"end":3056.848,"text":"第三个透过纪念日还有节日我们希望能够让国人了解原住民族的历史还有尊严我大概提两个节日第一个就是在1895年的10月31号我们认为他是原住民族的历史上通日"},{"start":3058.088,"end":3076.681,"text":"當時日本政府發布了日令26號強行的沒收了原住民族的土地這讓非常多的族人流離失所雖然戰後這個命令被廢止了可是土地到現在都還沒有歸還"},{"start":3078.642,"end":3090.617,"text":"這也是原住民族的還我土地運動的根源因此我們認為透過立法將這一天定定為原住民族的轉型正義紀念日讓大家來正視這段歷史"},{"start":3096.064,"end":3112.444,"text":"同时在1914年的6月26号泰鲁格族成功的击退了日军这也是抗争精神的象征所以我们希望也透过这一次的立法定为"},{"start":3113.626,"end":3127.408,"text":"6月26号为原住民族的抵抗日让原住民族继续来为我们自己的土地的正义继续的奋斗最后我提的转型正义"},{"start":3128.632,"end":3132.634,"text":"紀念日還有傷痛日因為還沒有過復育期所以在逐條審查的時候我希望請在場的各委員們還有機關能夠支持我的提案尤其園民會"},{"start":3145.66,"end":3159.885,"text":"能夠讓法案順利的出委員會並且在三讀通過後來實質的保障憲法賦予每一名勞工還有原住民族的權益以及尊嚴謝謝謝謝高金素美委員現在我們請翁曉琳委員進行提案說明"},{"start":3177.356,"end":3203.751,"text":"主席在座的各位官員各位委員各位媒體先進大家好到底哪些節日該紀念哪些節日該放假是影響人民生活的重要議題然而呢在過去紀念日跟假日都沒有經過代表民意的立法院來討論而是由執政的政府呢來"},{"start":3204.992,"end":3229.098,"text":"进行自行决定导致与人民的期待产生落差目前纪念日及节日的实施办法是早在民国43年就已经制定了那么期间虽然经过多次的修正但是每逢要增修或是删减假日和纪念日常常会引起社会的讨论以及纷扰"},{"start":3229.838,"end":3248.606,"text":"因此多年来国定假日法制化的呼声向来没有停过而是积极的诉求必须要将这个实施办法法制化那么这个就是攸关所以这次我们诸多的委员"},{"start":3250.023,"end":3264.166,"text":"希望能够将这个攸关国家重要历史文化纪念族群职业尊严和大众权益的重要事项予以法治化来确保国定假日能够有效的稳定的实施"},{"start":3265.543,"end":3294.002,"text":"那么将本来是属于行政命令未接的纪念日及节日的实施办法提升它的法律未接来制定条例那么让制定纪念日及节日的相关标准可以更加一致因此本席在这里就提出了纪念日及节日的实施条例草案除了维持既有的纪念日及放假日的规定之外本席又提出台湾光复纪念日和行限纪念日"},{"start":3295.123,"end":3297.948,"text":"必須要回復為國定的放假日"},{"start":3299.986,"end":3328.619,"text":"我們知道其實光復節是台灣結束被日本殖民時期被日本的殖民來重回中華民國的懷抱而行限紀念日更是慶祝中華民國進入一個自由民主法治的重要時刻所以光復節與行限紀念日可以說是台灣人民所自豪的民主憲政價值那麼同時也是與台灣緊密連結的一個重要的時刻"},{"start":3329.119,"end":3339.901,"text":"那么民调也显示有超过六成四六成五以上的民众是支持台湾光复节和行县纪念日定定为国定假日的"},{"start":3341.294,"end":3365.943,"text":"那麼在此呢我們也期待所有的委員都能夠支持我們一起來制定紀念日及假日的實施條例一同支持讓光復節與行限紀念日回歸到國定的放假日的行列來讓我們一同紀念進入民主與法治的時代謝謝好謝謝翁曉琳委員下一位我們請林建啟委員提案說明"},{"start":3375.118,"end":3402.475,"text":"主席 各位部會同仁 立院同仁還有在座的媒體朋友們 大家好本席在這邊針對國家紀念日及節日實施法草案來做這樣一個提案說明長期以來我國紀念日跟節日的制度僅依照行政命令在執行缺乏法律的慰藉與制度的穩定導致假期的安排非常的混亂這個調整的一個頻繁讓政策也很容易受到干擾"},{"start":3403.215,"end":3430.223,"text":"那引發社會的不滿跟制度正義的一個質疑因此我們在這邊希望能夠將紀念日及節日實施辦法提升為法律正式的法律已經是一個客戶融款應該要改革的這個方向那這不僅是一個立法技術的問題更關乎我們整個國家公共治理的態度那也就是我們現在要從一個行政便利的狀況邁向法治的保障"},{"start":3431.363,"end":3448.814,"text":"我們必須正視當前假期制度的諸多不公平及不便彈性放假造成了補班的困擾勞動節僅限於特定的職業在放假教師節以及原住民相關的節日沒有受到正式的保障"},{"start":3449.914,"end":3473.394,"text":"顯示制度設計缺乏全面性與公平性國民對於假期的預期應該要建立在比較穩定的法制制度上而不是綿綿依賴行政上的調整內政部應該明確地表態來支持這個法案的立法並說明是不是已經有初步法案規劃以及基本制度設計的原則讓民眾對假期制度討論這麼久"},{"start":3478.516,"end":3499.236,"text":"政府如果還一直停留在這個嚴密的階段很難以回應社會的期待本席主張應該重構一套比較公平也具有文化包容性的假日制度各黨團的版本已經增列出原住民日、823紀念日、教師節、國防日等假期"},{"start":3500.517,"end":3521.393,"text":"顯示社會對於多元價值的一個重視那我們如果只是一味增加假日而沒有整體的評估也會陷於民粹化所以本席在這邊建議內政部應該考慮建立跨部會的一個審議的機制然後比較明確的來評估以平衡文化意義跟社會經濟的影響"},{"start":3523.55,"end":3536.808,"text":"作為原住民族籍的立法委員本席特別強調原住民族日應該納入制度保障這不僅是休假問題而已也是對原住民族的文化與歷史地位的肯定與認同"},{"start":3538.51,"end":3556.777,"text":"根據憲法增修條文國家肯定多元文化假日的制度因為長期被忽略所以原住民族的傳統節令政府應該藉這個機會來正面回應制度化原民遂時忌遺的假期來落實憲政的精神"},{"start":3557.717,"end":3579.915,"text":"此外本席建議增設民族平等紀念日為國定假日象徵族群和平與歷史的反思讓全民共同理解台灣多元族群與歷史文化深化轉型正義的內涵假期不應該淪為只是放假也是我們整體國家的記憶跟社會教育的具體"},{"start":3582.502,"end":3598.249,"text":"體現應承認歷史脈絡與價值傳遞的功能最後彈性放假制度常年引發民怨與勞動困境以及也不是單純行政調整可以解決的所以補班制度的效能低落造成學民的困擾也造成企業的困擾"},{"start":3598.889,"end":3619.595,"text":"所以我們應該把它納入法律架構中來統整設計明確的規範彈性放假與補班的機制使假期的制度比較能夠符合預期與公平內政部不知道是不是可以支持這樣一個法制的方向然後提出比較具體的配套模型才是我們制度改革的一個關鍵"},{"start":3622.096,"end":3650.864,"text":"周上而論紀念日及假日的實施法應該不僅是只有技術立法更應該體現公平文化包容與歷史記憶的整個制度工程期盼內政部能夠正面回應我們一起共同來推動一部真正符合多元社會期待的法案以上 謝謝好 謝謝林倩琦委員下一位我們請台灣民眾黨黨團代表麥玉珍委員進行提案說明"},{"start":3660.049,"end":3681.545,"text":"主席 各位委員及各位嘉賓們 大家早安各國近年來持續調整法定假日制度以符合社會需求與勞工權益保障我國目前的假期規範僅依行政命令"},{"start":3683.305,"end":3706.033,"text":"纪念日及节日实施办法缺杂法律保障保持放假标准不一致例如劳动节为全国统一放假公务人员与劳工适用不同的标准补班制度增加劳工负担削弱"},{"start":3707.293,"end":3724.752,"text":"休假的意義 全球七四朝向增加休假天數 提升休假的彈性各國政府與企業開始關注勞工身心健康與工作的效力"},{"start":3726.368,"end":3739.685,"text":"推動更友善休假的制度良好的休假安排不僅能減少壓力提升工作效率與安全性更能讓勞工"},{"start":3741.607,"end":3762.816,"text":"有更多时间陪伴我们的家人参与社会活动提高生活品质此外休假也能促进观光及消费带动经济发展正地企业离职率吸引人才形成双赢的局面因此"},{"start":3764.497,"end":3770.1,"text":"我們提出紀念日及節日實施條例提升假期制度及法律層級統一國定假日的標準取消補班機制建立彈性休假的制度讓假期更符合社會的需求請各位委員共同支持紀念日及"},{"start":3794.49,"end":3808.458,"text":"節日實施條例草案確保國人享有更公平合理放假的制度提升勞工副職與社會和諧以上 謝謝好 謝謝麥玉珍委員的提案說明繼續我們請牛喜廷召委做提案說明謝謝主席"},{"start":3822.61,"end":3846.391,"text":"這個現行有關於紀念日跟節日的名稱日期紀念或者是慶祝的方式以及放假的規定辦理等等事宜主要是按照內政部訂定的紀念日及節日實施辦法的規定來做辦理但是考量紀念日節日跟實施放假對於國家的發展歷史對於傳統民俗對於社會文化的紀念傳承肯定"},{"start":3847.572,"end":3865.743,"text":"還有放假也關乎全國工商經濟發展以及人民的日常生活其實影響是非常大的也涉及了人民的權利跟義務當然就應該要依照中央法規標準法第五條二款規定以法律的位階來定制也應該經過立法院嚴謹而且充分的審查"},{"start":3866.824,"end":3867.064,"text":"因此本席提案"},{"start":3886.847,"end":3914.546,"text":"透過紀念日及節日實施條例的修法將這個七天假還給勞工新增的七天假國定假日分別為7月15號簡言紀念日8月1號原住民族日9月21號國家防災日9月28號孔子誕辰紀念日也就是教師節農曆的9月9號是我們敬老的崇洋節以及12月25號的行縣紀念日最後是農曆12月28號的小年夜"},{"start":3915.627,"end":3942.663,"text":"這些放假大部分集中在下半年當然就是考量我們的勞工朋友上半年假比較多下半年假比較少的一個狀況當然在這個價別的選擇過程中我們也考量了這個社會的接受度以及政治的爭議不要太高主要我們的初衷很單純讓勞工的朋友有更多時間休息或者是服務業的朋友如果真的要加班你至少要有兩倍工資的這樣子相對好的待遇"},{"start":3943.303,"end":3957.512,"text":"這樣子其實也可以促進服務業的消費經濟發展我們希望整個大院用開放的心態來面對還給勞工七天假的議題這個議案最早被拋出來的時候很多人馬上就扣上了政治意識形態的大帽子"},{"start":3958.493,"end":3985.685,"text":"宣稱什麼威權復辟但我想聽了剛剛的提案說明我想這樣子的指控是多慮的我們不應該用政治的立場跟語言影響勞工休息的機會希望大家可以理性而且秉於事實來做討論我剛剛聽到林倩琪委員的提案說明非常非常她提到一點是非常好的她說要注重公平以及文化包容性今天有非常多的委員提出版本我們會在接下來的討論過程中"},{"start":3987.126,"end":3994.709,"text":"讓大家充分提出意見並且進行討論審核期待這部法案可以順利修正還給勞工朋友應有公道謝謝"},{"start":4011.107,"end":4030.538,"text":"好那麼有關提案說明的部分大概在場的委員都說明完畢那麼我們現在請這個政府相關的部會來做簡單的說明因為兼顧議事的審查我們時間大概抓五分鐘好不好首先先請內政部劉部長事方進行報告"},{"start":4037.659,"end":4056.453,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生大家早今天內政委員會召開會議就大院委員所提案的紀念日及節日實施條例草案進行審議那代表內政部向貴委員會提出報告那請各位能夠多多指教也謝謝各位關心我們夜館的相關議題"},{"start":4057.774,"end":4085.206,"text":"现行有关于纪念日及节日的实施办法系规范纪念日及节日的名称日期纪念或庆祝方式及放假规定整事宜对于相关法律完成立法之前为全国所应遵守的方向那目前各位委员所研提的提案呢共有26个版本那内政部的意见如下第一法案名称有七种立法的主轴有两个"},{"start":4085.546,"end":4100.881,"text":"一個是以國定假日為主軸另外一個是以紀念日及節日為主軸後者將能凸顯紀念日及節日的重要意涵那關於紀念日的節日這名稱定定或刪減、減減都有不同經過我們針對上述的26個版本的一個統計紀念日一共有33種節日則多達8種"},{"start":4111.291,"end":4136.207,"text":"那委員所提的應增加的放假日從一天到九天都有第二在放假日的日數部分現行全國紀念性的放假全國性的紀念日及節日的放假日有11日並繼週休二日全年總放假日數已經達到115天到116天符合立法院在"},{"start":4136.787,"end":4159.384,"text":"民國89年公務員服務法修正的附帶決議且為歷年來本部會同相關行政單位及各界的共識各個委員對於紀念日及節日放假日數的提案少者12日多者達20日考量紀念日及節日的放假為全國一體適用調整與否應該總體來評估另外對於部分委員提案"},{"start":4163.607,"end":4190.334,"text":"将上班日配合放假日调整纳入草案中规范但是考量上班日涉及各行各业的运作要求公司部门分别由行政院人事行政总处及劳动部依各该主管规定来办理目前除了劳动节、军人节及援助民族岁时祭仪之外全国纪念日及节日放假日已经趋于一致"},{"start":4190.934,"end":4217.386,"text":"纪念日及节日的实施所涉层面甚广如果各位委员提案可以充分讨论的话才会解决现在意见分层要拟据共识会有规划上面的困难在结语方面现行的纪念日及节日实施办法系规范纪念日及节日的名称日期纪念或庆祝方式及放假规定等六种事宜对于相关法律完成立法前"},{"start":4218.306,"end":4245.186,"text":"為了全國人民應該遵守的狀況之下除了勞動節、軍人節及援助民族碎食祭儀全國紀念日跟節日放假趨於一致紀念日及節日實施辦法所定之放假日為全國一體適用有關公務員與勞工權益所涉工時休息等勞動條件公務員繫衣公務員服務法以及相關人事法令的規定辦理"},{"start":4246.267,"end":4262.658,"text":"勞工則依勞動基準法即其施行細則及相關規定來辦理其中與紀念日及節日全國一致的性質並不相同但是放假日多寡影響甚巨那在上個會期的時候呢大院的委員會也曾經舉行公聽會"},{"start":4264.599,"end":4285.407,"text":"當時的學者還有各個不同層面的代表也是一樣沒有共識所以我們應該從國家的整體利益綜合評估做最適當的規範以上的說明有關紀念日及節日的實施因為所設層面甚廣各個委員的提案意見分層希望能夠凝聚共識之後再討回規劃簡單報告 謝謝好 謝謝劉部長接下來我們請"},{"start":4293.396,"end":4300.652,"text":"原住民委員會曾祖偉志勇進行報告針對遂時記憶的部分可以說明一下謝謝"},{"start":4303.402,"end":4323.652,"text":"主席各位委員那嚴明會就針對碎石記憶的部分跟各位委員報告那本次有20個委員提案將原住民族日提升為國定紀念日那我們本會是樂觀齊成那還有一個是修正原住民的碎石記憶放假三天那我們"},{"start":4327.899,"end":4348.829,"text":"這陣子都有提到那麼有三點很重要就是說我們很多的原住民他的另外一半他沒有原住民的身份所以這個難以就是說這個同行來參加我們原住民日還有就是說後假的日數太少就只有一天那我們大部分的這個歲時計"},{"start":4350.51,"end":4370.918,"text":"都大概是要超過三天所以主委回去很難以參與部落的這個完整的這個祭典程序不利這個文化傳承的發展最後如果能夠全民統一放假更有助於整體社會落實文化平衡還有促進多元的共融"},{"start":4371.818,"end":4396.152,"text":"那還有一點就是順時計由各部落決定之後報請主管機關來公告這點因為我們現在整個原住民的部落超過700多個我們是建議應該要橫走實際部落的情形我們是不是可以考慮以族情為提報的單位那以上是我簡單的報告 謝謝"},{"start":4399.226,"end":4406.243,"text":"好 謝謝我們曾志勇主委再來我們請勞動部李政事見諷報告"},{"start":4415.481,"end":4441.614,"text":"是 主席 各位委員 大家早老闆部在這邊應邀來委員會來提供本部的一些法制意見第一點 這個紀念日跟節日的就國定假日訂定是考量整個國家文化跟歷史傳承這是一個全國一致性的事務所以那現在已經是統籌由內政部所管的紀念日和節日的這個辦法來管理那"},{"start":4443.055,"end":4459.653,"text":"有关劳工的部分劳基法37条有规定内政部要锁定应该放假的纪念日节日劳动节还有其他中央住宅机关指定放假的国定假都应该放假这是第一点第二点劳动部认为"},{"start":4460.774,"end":4478.484,"text":"台灣的各行各業營運模式都很不一樣有的行業沒有辦法中斷它的營運特別是在假日時間人來要服務譬如說運輸業或者有一些醫療院所甚至一些公用事業還有部分輪班制的製造業他們都是要"},{"start":4479.204,"end":4505.417,"text":"通常要長時間輪班來工作那要全年的保持運作來符合公眾大眾的需求可是相對有一些行業呢他在一般民眾在例假日或假日休息的時候有一些行業他卻必須要持續工作比如說觀光旅宿業或百貨業所以呢在不同各行各業不同的營運模式的情況下呢如果要訂"},{"start":4506.317,"end":4526.3,"text":"全國一致性的國定價要更多的國定價的話呢這時候就會出現某些行業的特別是輪班勞工他在試用上的問題那照現在勞基法39條規定呢如果雇主在休假日還要求勞工來出勤工作勞工也同意的話那麼這時候勞工"},{"start":4527.661,"end":4553.646,"text":"可以獲得雇主支付的雙倍工資那麼另外勞基法細則23條之一也規定勞基法37條所定的國定假日還有勞動節等休假日如果遇到勞工原本排班就是例假或休息日的話就應該補假但是呢細則裡面特別規定這個補假日應該由勞資雙方協商決定所以呢如果"},{"start":4554.306,"end":4573.719,"text":"如果未來這個我們訂了這個國定假日還有紀念日的一個法制化的條例那規定了一致性的全國一致性的這個補假日或補班日恐怕會導致有部分行業在適用上勞工部分行業適用上的困難這第二點意見第三點呢我們很多"},{"start":4575.04,"end":4602.063,"text":"各委員所提的各種版本都希望把內政部現在所管的紀念日節日時辦法法制化雖然這一個主管機關是內政部勞工部原則上是尊重內政部的職權但是勞工部基於勞工的需求和期待所以勞工部近期也都持續和內政部還有相關部會甚至行政院來交換意見反映勞工的一些團體的意見"},{"start":4603.604,"end":4625.539,"text":"那有關要不要調整國定假日呢我們勞動部建議應該通盤考量各種行業各種職類的一個各種領域工作的需求特別是勞工的一些團體的期待那麼兼顧一致性跟公平性的原則下來通盤檢討討論我們最後還是尊重主管機關內政部意見謝謝好謝謝次長"},{"start":4630.646,"end":4660.046,"text":"那其他單位的報告我們就請委員自行參閱然後我們刊登公報做記錄來現在進行詢答委員在詢答諮詢前遠離做幾點宣告第一個本會委員發言時間6分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員發言時間5分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記第二今天因為法案處理本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位有沒有意見"},{"start":4661.667,"end":4667.571,"text":"沒有沒有好謝謝那我們現在進行詢問請登記第一位的蘇巧慧委員發言好謝謝主席我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請"},{"start":4688.361,"end":4704.639,"text":"蘇媛早部長好那我們今天是要來審查紀念日及節日的這個實施條例那希望能夠看是不是大家都有共識要把它從辦法調升為法治化那其實在這個排案審查之前社會上已經討論很久部長這個案子大概討論"},{"start":4706.055,"end":4721.471,"text":"多早年多久非常久民國90年之前那時候內政部曾經提過有總共三次那也沒有共識然後在立法委員已經經歷過五屆所以您當時也參與過討論也有參與過討論但是也都是沒有共識所以那個時候的困難點是什麼"},{"start":4725.695,"end":4744.344,"text":"我想困難點是這樣子大家都知道說假日或是國定假日或是節日它是綜合在一起的它裡面討論說有比較嚴肅性的假日譬如說228但是也有百公百業但是也有性別譬如說三八婦女節那有人跟我提到在網路上面有提到說那1111光棍節要不要放假"},{"start":4744.704,"end":4753.451,"text":"所以大家的版本都不一樣大家的提案的理由都不一樣都不一樣現在也是這樣嗎也是這個樣子因為我們剛剛其實上個會期也開過公聽會嘛所以從90年開始我們就討論這件事情但是一直到現在包括上個會期我們才剛剛開完公聽會也還是這樣沒有辦法有共識說哇我們就是有幾天已經得到全社會的支持大家都同意放假了是這樣的狀況嗎還是目前其實我非常想要說"},{"start":4773.908,"end":4798.758,"text":"我想委員非常的清楚假日節日這個部分要怎麼放假其實我們都會尊重不管是族群性別或是其他的百工百業但是要不要放假這個事情就事涉多元如果是屬於公務員放假的話是我們行政院的人事行政總處在每一年的年底的時候公佈下一年度的放假日但是事涉到私人的比如說公司行號的放假的部分的話"},{"start":4799.258,"end":4814.59,"text":"它就必須要符合勞動部的這些勞基法或是放假日所以其實是兩個層次現在是所有的把它都放在一起的時候就會變成有點混亂也就是造成學者所說的沒有辦法凝聚共識也就是說其實這個議題來講雖然我們講的是紀念日和節日但是其實回過頭來我們要處理的是當我們能夠確認紀念日和節日的意義能夠得到共識就這個意義價值得到共識之後"},{"start":4827.74,"end":4841.657,"text":"那我們再去處理要怎麼來紀念或放假放假只是形式之一而已可以這麼說嗎對 它是一種放假是一種形式之一所以應該是寓意的重要性要先能夠凝聚共識這是第一個層次大家先討論好是不是"},{"start":4843.479,"end":4866.887,"text":"都同意有這一些紀念日成為國家制定的然後再來決定它的形式到底是要放假還是不放假或有其他的紀念方式我看現在的辦法也有我們就是要升旗啊或者是什麼啊有些紀念日是單純這樣所以紀念日的紀念形式有多種不同的狀況然後才是有這個放假只是其中之一兩種不同的層次好那我們就來所以這件事情"},{"start":4871.789,"end":4897.806,"text":"被處理的狀況其實最重要就是剛剛說的第一層次共識的部分那我們來看其實我們以亞洲好了我們就先侷限在我們的歷史脈絡比較相近的文化風俗比較相近的亞洲來看好了其實不管是日本、韓國、新加坡都會有不同的假日我發現他們其實都是依照自己的歷史背景或文化去制定那我以我們比較接近的新加坡好了"},{"start":4898.126,"end":4900.907,"text":"為什麼新加坡我會說它比較接近呢因為新加坡也是華人馬來人印度人及其他歐亞裔的血統這樣組成的一個國家所以它的文化非常多元以至於它的假日就非常多元它的假日裡面你看看它有這個以宗教為放假日的狀況"},{"start":4917.375,"end":4935.888,"text":"也有因為是種族族群的不同而產生不同的狀況但綜合起來它其實是平均分布這樣的狀況部長這個新加坡的您應該在處理這個案件的時候法案的時候也有看過吧有但是宗教為主的部分也有人做報告是"},{"start":4936.368,"end":4945.716,"text":"但是他宗教其實等於是配合了族群的不同嘛因為他的不同族群產生的不同的宗教這樣的狀況好那如果回到我們的狀態來講的話呢其實剛剛也聽到非常多偉文的說明你就可以看出有些人是從宗教出發有些人是從族群出發有些人是從歷史來出發部長你有統計過這一次大家所有的提案狀況上面我們總共"},{"start":4962.27,"end":4989.675,"text":"如果全部都採納的話我們要增加多少的假日紀念日嗎有26個提案你有沒有剛剛提到了最少是增加一天那最多是增加9天這個是紀念日的部分沒有所有的提案所有的提案就是紀念日跟節日就是剛剛所說的有族群的方面的也有百公百業的也有宗教方面的也有因為是歲時祭儀譬如說這個農曆新年等等這些所以加在一起就是最多有達到9天好"},{"start":4991.295,"end":4998.397,"text":"所以部長其實這個數字是遠超過現在的狀況那如果把這個九天的假期全部都開始放進去了的話對我們的社會現在的狀況你覺得影響是不是也應該一併提出來讓大家能夠了解之後我們才決定說是不是這一些假期都有辦法去處理"},{"start":5012.06,"end":5032.134,"text":"是 謝謝委員的垂詢有關於那個各個委員所提出放假日的部分因為很難就說做他們如果多放假九天的話會造成什麼的影響但是就我所了解應該就是說在勞動方面像我剛剛說的如果放假日的話全國的軍公教大概都會是一樣譬如說多放九天"},{"start":5032.654,"end":5053.243,"text":"但是對於在私部門裡面尤其是在勞工勞動或者是公司行號企業文化裡面他們能不能承受說多放9天的時候有一些什麼樣子的影響那這個部分因為委員的提案因為26個委員提案裡面他們也沒有提到這方面的評估所以我們就很難去評估到後續的影響在哪裡"},{"start":5053.843,"end":5069.676,"text":"我想這樣今天各個委員從剛剛提案說明就已經這麼多人等一下每個人也都會問我想問的核心價值不外乎是剛剛提到兩個第一個就是我們對這些節日紀念日的價值意義是不是有共識才不會出現像這一次我們雖然在放228紀念日但是你看坊間這個出現在電視媒體上面的或者是我們的社群網路上面是什麼是歡慶228228是用來這樣歡慶的嗎"},{"start":5083.728,"end":5106.166,"text":"228可以放假228可以去做休閒的活動這沒有問題但是在這之前社會是不是對228的這個意義放假紀念日的意義能夠有理解這就等同於是剛剛我聽到比如說823紀念日我也覺得這個紀念日很好啊但我想823紀念日真正的精神應該是在反共是在守護民主這個有沒有能夠提到"},{"start":5108.408,"end":5117.032,"text":"行限紀念日 對啊 行限很重要啊但你是不是能夠在國會裡面作為一個堅守憲法的立法委員能夠堅守我們目前的中華民國憲法五權憲法體制這樣子的一個政黨那我就覺得這是不是也才是行限的真諦是不是應該搞清楚這個我們這些假日"},{"start":5131.838,"end":5142.304,"text":"它的意義再來提出我們要怎麼樣去實行這個假日這個節日紀念日這樣的方式所以我認為其實今天我們會花非常多的時間在處理這些意義的部分我相信我期待我們能夠有共識不過我認為在這個部分來講"},{"start":5151.65,"end":5171.542,"text":"可能從90年到現在大家都必須要把所有的台灣的歷史脈絡做深刻的檢視之後才有辦法決定哪一些是真正的共識否則那只是造成各行各業更大的困擾而已我認為部長今天在這裡麻煩你在後面的委員追尋的時候能夠一一的說明這樣子的部分是謝謝委員謝謝主席好謝謝蘇巧惠委員的質詢下一位我們請"},{"start":5181.771,"end":5198.047,"text":"張志倫委員質詢好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員各位媒體先進大家早是有請劉世芳劉部長劉部長有請"},{"start":5203.875,"end":5214.1,"text":"委員早部長早部長新的會期第一次質詢希望未來大家一起加油首先我還是要請教部長有關於時事題根據賴總統3月12號的記者會"},{"start":5220.424,"end":5243.425,"text":"跟部長請教其實兩岸宗教團體交流應該要建立揭露的制度這樣子的一個做法是否多此一舉會變成變相鎖國的一個問題要跟部長請教其實宗教交流原本是很單純的活動那宗教也是憲法賦予人民的基本權利可是賴總統的記者會有提到"},{"start":5243.965,"end":5269.742,"text":"他說中國藉由兩岸交流對社會統戰威脅的 滲透的威脅只是內政部 就就是方部長您要建立宗教團體等公益組織赴中國交流之揭露制度以防渡中國的干預及統戰那其實宗教團體在賴總統的這個新聞記者會之後其實就已經提出嚴重的這個反彈他認為說其實這樣子"},{"start":5272.404,"end":5300.151,"text":"是變相的鎖國那教育界也是還是鼓勵這個學子要多多交流那我想請教就是說部長你在1月17號在宗教私務諮詢委員會的會議中也表示兩岸宗教交流要秉持對等尊嚴的原則那請問現在您的對等原則的定義是什麼有沒有現在的交流真的有像賴總統講的有需要有受到中國的甘雨局統戰嗎"},{"start":5302.792,"end":5322.183,"text":"謝謝謝謝委員的垂詢我想我的立場都沒有改變對等尊嚴還要加上健康有序那目前內政部在處理兩岸的宗教團體的交流的時候呢如果他是團體性的交流那當然他是要登記要申請為原則我想張委員非常清楚我們上個月我們中國佛教會的這個理事長才剛剛原籍"},{"start":5328.607,"end":5352.387,"text":"那個時候呢他們有邀請這個中國的大山裡面的很多長老到台灣來參加這樣子的原籍的法會的時候所申請的每一位我們都讓他通過到台灣來沒有問題所以健康有序的部分只要他是屬於宗教團體而且是正信不是正信不是邪教的話我們都會完全的尊重而且都沒有問題"},{"start":5353.107,"end":5357.753,"text":"但是重要您聽我再給我幾秒鐘的時間但是重要的部分是我們台灣有一些團體也是宗教團體到中國大陸去的時候到目前為止在安全上面仍然出了狀況譬如說台灣有一貫道還有統一教的幾個教友"},{"start":5371.249,"end":5394.698,"text":"到目前為止呢仍然是屬於這個沒有自由跟關押的狀態所以我們所說的對等尊嚴跟健康有序我們很希望說兩邊的宗教團體基於宗教交流的原則我們都是開放的而且沒有任何的限制好那部長那我請教一下初步您這邊內政部有提出相關的揭露制度大概會什麼時候公佈嗎"},{"start":5395.518,"end":5424.02,"text":"那現在宗教團體我想他們最緊張的因為其實就像部長講的現在的交流往來是很順暢的那當然會有一些個案我也希望政府單位要積極的去處理讓保證我們國人的安全那其實宗教團體現在出國其實大家國人出國大概都會經過大概都政府都知道出國的人那到底要怎樣的揭露制度那揭露之後是不是人民現在最擔心的台灣是自由民主國家未來是不是要核准"},{"start":5425.101,"end":5439.258,"text":"才能與大陸交流還是未來以後未來是不是還是只有報備才可以完全沒有所謂的你說說這樣的部分我剛說過了要兩岸要有對等跟尊嚴我們對他們要來的宗教團體其實都是採取開放的態度"},{"start":5440.799,"end":5458.886,"text":"但是我們過去的團體的時候呢到那個地方就完全轉了向就是基於安全的理由所以我們初步呢我們要先清查一下其實以目前我們現在的這個不管是輔導啦或者是其他的服務辦法都是按照現行的這個制度在走"},{"start":5459.633,"end":5481.779,"text":"好所以你的意思是說其實還是按照現行的辦法那如果就是說未來的街鬥制度你剛剛沒有提說現在還在演繹當中有沒有預計公佈的時間我們現在是鼓勵他們是登錄鼓勵登錄用鼓勵的方式登錄的方式鼓勵登錄的方式那街鬥跟鼓勵登錄的方式讓人家知道說你到中國大陸去紅磅正向的法律的時候那有沒有未來要修"},{"start":5485.34,"end":5508.854,"text":"什麼任何的法律跟條例嗎目前沒有任何的法律需要修正好謝謝好那下一個問題今天討論的是有關於政府還給勞動七天假及國定假日的修改的部分然後跟部長說明台灣勞工工時這個一年工時破2000根據民調顯示過半的民宿過半的民眾需要回復七天假那請教部長"},{"start":5509.494,"end":5530.539,"text":"台灣的國定假日相對較亞洲的鄰國較少公使也是在世界排名前段班現在世界第五那根據各委員提案的版本將國定假日提高請問內政部現在有規劃要提高哪一些的假日嗎比如說像之前五一勞動節要統一放假嗎請問內政部的看法是什麼"},{"start":5531.039,"end":5551.569,"text":"報告委員我剛提過了我們在內政部所主導的是紀念日跟假日的實施辦法那是否放假的部分的話還是一樣對於勞工他們自己勞工的權益的問題我認為說勞工的權益的問題應該是由勞動部來主責會比較好好所以現在內政部沒有考慮要增加任何一天的放假日報告"},{"start":5551.957,"end":5563.244,"text":"報告委員那個勞動節5月1號本來就是勞工團體都放假勞工都放假好所以目前沒有好那下一個問題我要請教勞動部的黃師長李師長李師長好謝謝勞動部次長好謝謝次長有請好謝謝部長請休息"},{"start":5583.148,"end":5605.341,"text":"好 請教勞動部次長 就今天討論了很多的這個國定假日的修改主要還是因為台灣的這個勞工的工時增加的太多了而且是亞洲第五名 亞洲前兩名 國際第五名那請教一下勞動部針對降低勞工的工時有沒有規劃的任何的進度跟規劃的任何的報告"},{"start":5606.735,"end":5619.492,"text":"跟委員說明第一那個媒體引用的那個都是所謂台灣勞工的工時全球第五我覺得這個是有點跟事實不一樣跟事實不一樣OECD跟OECD39個國家來比"},{"start":5623.217,"end":5639.903,"text":"那全世界有200個所以你認為台灣勞工的工時沒有太長2030個小時沒有太長全國第六亞洲第二我認為我們當然我們台灣勞工的工時確實還有讓他讓勞工有更多休息時間的那個努力空間那你們有沒有相對應的辦法跟政策嗎"},{"start":5640.816,"end":5665.805,"text":"我們現在就是第一我們勞動部的福祉是多年來都有推動讓企業來申請員工與工作與生活平衡的一些補助計劃那每年都有大概500多件的企業來申請第二就是說在工時政策方面我們也希望能夠透過這個最低工資每年的調整因為很多勞工他是希望能夠多加班然後來多賺錢如果我們把"},{"start":5666.345,"end":5691.953,"text":"所以我們過去這幾年最低工資每年都調整讓勞工的底薪能夠持續提高事實上這個我們認為我們的調查也是有效的事實上在過去在2021年台灣勞工我們的調查大概有46%的勞工還要加班但到去年已經降到36%事實上這一個狀況就我們認為是有它一定的效果是好 謝謝"},{"start":5693.573,"end":5721.181,"text":"看來這個次長跟一般的勞工的想法不太一樣其實勞工不是不願意加班時數過少就是因為工作我覺得壓力太大所以勞工現在普遍年輕人他們可能會有自己的一個想法可是我還是要跟這個次長報告還是要想辦法把台灣勞工的工時給下降那第二個我想請教其實台灣現在目前還有另外一個問題就是台灣的這個勞工40%他的特休假沒有放完"},{"start":5721.681,"end":5739.053,"text":"那很多人說其實現在特休假沒有放完其實基本上來應該要補償這個勞工他的一些的薪資嘛現在法規規定是這樣子可是現在卻沒有相關的一個罰則說如果這個雇主如果未休假的獎金沒有補足的話其實沒有相關的罰則請問次長覺得這樣子對勞工公平嗎"},{"start":5742.398,"end":5759.57,"text":"跟我的說明照計畫規定如果那個特休沒有放那雇主也不給付的話是要罰的要罰兩萬到一百萬要罰那現在有在落實嗎當然有我們勞檢都把這個列為重點項目好所以現在那為什麼還是有40%的勞工特休假沒有放完"},{"start":5760.31,"end":5784.132,"text":"這個我們勞工部的立場是希望勞工能夠善用他的特休假的權利但是勞工他在不同的行業工作型態不同他會基於他自己的需要去決定要不要來特休或者來跟雇主要求要來換取現金收入所以我們的立場是希望勞工能夠善用他的特休假好那接下來我要想要交通部有來嗎"},{"start":5787.557,"end":5803.232,"text":"交通部我可以方便請教交通部嗎來等一下啊時間暫停來沒時間好好好來交通部總交委不好意思我們把握一下時間好差不多收尾囉"},{"start":5808.137,"end":5833.357,"text":"好不好意思今天要請教交通部那我再請教一下其實也有很多委員還會質疑就是說如果放假日增加是不是有可能導致交通永賽或是旅遊業承載過高是否有相關的配套措施那請教您的部分就是會不會有新增的國定假日導致出遊的旅客人潮變多現行的運能是否充足會不會因為人潮過高導致工作量大增"},{"start":5834.297,"end":5855.875,"text":"因為我們交通運輸業的話他那個輪班輪休的部分會自己挪移他的那個假日所以應該是不會導致那個人力的那個擁塞的部分那我們本部呢所屬的這個機構呢輪班輪休人員現在都是按照公務員服務法跟服務規範的相關規定來辦理"},{"start":5858.197,"end":5870.271,"text":"那在假日跟紀念日跟節日的時候也透過放假日的那個條椅跟加班補償的方式然後排定輪班人員出勤以確保民眾生意返鄉跟出遊旅遊的權益"},{"start":5873.134,"end":5895.075,"text":"應該是不會有影響最後還是要拜託這個內政部部長就是說有這麼多的委員提出相關的修法版本就代表這是立法院很多的委員大家的共識那也拜託部長可以讓台灣的勞工來做一些相關的修正謝謝 以上好 謝謝張志倫委員下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢"},{"start":5907.506,"end":5933.395,"text":"主席好 有請我們內部部長劉思邦部長有請麥委員好部長好請教部長一下我們台灣目前我們的國定假日是有可以放多少天國定假日可以放多少天對啊 目前我們台灣是放多少天目前的台灣的國定假日可以放多少天"},{"start":5938.709,"end":5943.657,"text":"如果週末不算就6日不算的話是11天國定假日就11天覺得這樣子"},{"start":5949.406,"end":5965.838,"text":"會不會太少因為國定假日有很多我們的紀念日還有就是其他的節日所以我們只有11天但是我看是12天但是不知道是不是說錯了勞動節5月1號是針對全國的勞工"},{"start":5970.261,"end":5989.149,"text":"所以如果算上去的话是12天但是我们看到的是说我们邻居的国家就像日本 韩国 泰国他们的放假日我们部长知道是比我们更多吗有多少你知道吗"},{"start":5990.212,"end":6007.017,"text":"因為麥委員所放在你的PowerPoint上面的很多國家我想就是按照上面所寫的部分對 因為日本 韓國 泰國這個都是放假日是鄰近的國家比我們多對 答案就是說日本是16天我們韓國15天 泰國是20天所以 但是我們台灣的工時又長"},{"start":6016.3,"end":6029.728,"text":"假日又少 國定假日數量 鄰居的國家又比較低所以我們內政部這邊是否這樣的政策方向你覺得符合我們勞工的需求嗎"},{"start":6031.435,"end":6050.557,"text":"報告委員內政部所主管的方向就是紀念日跟節日那但是紀念日跟節日要不要放假的問題跟某一些特殊的假日是不是符合勞動的標準那可能還是勞動部來做這個法律上的解釋會比較好"},{"start":6052.619,"end":6065.027,"text":"我剛有跟委員報告過他有兩種不同的層次紀念日跟假日是一個層次放假是一個層次所以我們才要提出嘛所以問你有沒有認同或者你有沒有參考別的國家我們再來提出說"},{"start":6068.649,"end":6075.977,"text":"但是你講的國家就是日本跟韓國但是你所爐裂的部分也是比我們更少的所以我事實上還是一樣我們國家有我們國家的整體的規則所以我們是有少也有多所以我們是要往上不是要看少的所以我們希望說你要做一個比例要來去看來去做一個修法"},{"start":6091.673,"end":6098.454,"text":"是的不是只有說我們看好沒看壞的對不對看壞的怎麼進定啊我們還沒有訂完法律案所以不是修法而是要不要立法的問題對所以我們現在我們要問你這些問題就是說我們台灣民眾黨要提出來的就是主張我們教師節勞動節應列為國定假日希望我們全國統一放假這不僅尊重我們的"},{"start":6120.518,"end":6133.353,"text":"专业与劳动的价值也是提升劳工与教育工作者的保障所以我们希望说刚才问你这些就是希望说我们要来去参考"},{"start":6135.495,"end":6143.72,"text":"也是各國的我們要來去做修法所以希望我們內政部這邊要支持所以此外我們勞動部目前就是非全國統一放假剛才你有講導致我們的公務人員還有勞工適用的標準又不同"},{"start":6156.167,"end":6161.208,"text":"所以甚至同一家人可能就出現一人放假一人上班這樣的狀況就影響我們整個社會的公平性與勞動權利所以我希望我們內政部這邊同意說用我們的版本統一放假的標準讓我們勞動節還有真正成為全國的放假日也確保勞動是我們享受同樣的休假權"},{"start":6184.372,"end":6188.373,"text":"這個就是我們提出的主張所以也部長你覺得要修這樣子是不是符合我們的勞動的權利謝謝麥委員的關心我剛有提到有關於紀念日跟節日的實施辦法是內政部的行政命令那現在我們要討論的是說我們有26個委員的版本希望把這個執法"},{"start":6212.397,"end":6237.017,"text":"行政命令變成是一個法律案是那變成這個法律案在去年的10月下旬的時候內政部委員會邀請的學者專家還有很多工商團體在那邊呢我們非常仔細的拜讀之後仍然是沒有共識那今天呢如果委員有26個委員的提案想把這個實施辦法變成是一個實施法律的法律案的時候"},{"start":6237.677,"end":6246.642,"text":"就必須要在內政委員會的所有的委員或者是大院的其他委員有共識那我們有共識的話呢 我們將會引以共識的方向來執行我知道說達成共識才拿出來討論嘛 沒有達成共識你決定就好啦所以我們今天就是要達成共識 所以先生說你有沒有同意 我們各個委員去討論才提出來"},{"start":6261.149,"end":6273.284,"text":"但是你要同意內政部這邊有這樣子的打算有這樣子的機制我們勞動部也共同來去推但是不管任何委員去問你就說你要問勞動部"},{"start":6276.127,"end":6301.36,"text":"但是我們內政部也是有相關啊不能說我們就是問老東部還有我們的國定假日又在週二或週四這樣子的請教我們的部長一向現行的制度如何處理我們你覺得如何處理因為現在國定假日如果一到二或四的時候是"},{"start":6303.36,"end":6328.71,"text":"按照現在的行政命令如果你碰到是週二對不起 週休二日的部分的話通常都會補班對 所以我們才主張所以說我們才主張就是取消就是我們的補班機制讓勞工真正的享受有假期不必要為了一天的放假再來補班這樣的模式的話"},{"start":6329.83,"end":6331.853,"text":"要對我們的企業還有勞動的雙方都是不友善的做法我們希望說我們的內政部這邊就是對這樣子的補班我們希望是放假就是不要再去"},{"start":6345.793,"end":6365.089,"text":"這樣子放假就放假不要再去補班所以委員的意思就是說如果有任何我們國定假日是放假然後它是連假的方式然後下個禮拜或是擇期就不要再補班那這個如果你把它訂到我們的一個法律的母法的時候會不會剛好失掉它的彈性我跟委員報告目前我們所彈性是我們是"},{"start":6371.554,"end":6386.718,"text":"所以我們的勞工他們有權利去選擇但是我們現在勞工有權利選擇那軍公教有權利選擇嗎對啊我們就是要現在我們要定的就是節日跟我們的勞工要同一時間如果是部長覺得是這樣子的話你是覺得是企業跟勞工"},{"start":6398.501,"end":6417.687,"text":"你有數據有評估過嗎還是照你說你覺得這樣不合理或者這樣子不需要你有評估過有造成我們勞工跟企業的影響嗎我們的主張我們的要求我們希望說大家支持但是呢我們是有"},{"start":6418.487,"end":6422.149,"text":"依據有依據大家的需求來去修法但是你說有沒有影響你說這個是造成誰誰誰我們希望我們今天要講的我們希望說企業跟勞工你覺得是補班補假"},{"start":6437.316,"end":6439.917,"text":"這樣子的話我們提出來你覺得說有影響但是你有沒有依據有沒有評估有沒有數據影響企業還是說我們有提升我們的生產力有沒有明確的數據呢還是說我們提出來你覺得這個不行或者推給勞動部或者推給別人"},{"start":6458.146,"end":6468.193,"text":"報告委員我剛講過了五一勞動日本來是所有全國的勞工都放假這個跟勞動者原先的勞動權益並沒有影響是但是你把它變成全國放一致所以我剛講過了你不能放"},{"start":6473.337,"end":6476.4,"text":"但是勞工可以放所以變成我們放假的時間希望多一點時間讓家庭日也家庭共同因為現在我們的工時就很長了但是我們放假就是夫妻放假一個放假一個不放假"},{"start":6492.777,"end":6502.781,"text":"小孩子又沒有人照顧 又放在家裡所以我們希望我們的國定假日還有就是我們教師節 勞動節我們是可以全國放假這樣子的話才是符合我們家裡誰去指揮交通 誰去維持治安 誰去保護國家安全"},{"start":6515.598,"end":6538.035,"text":"全國放假但是你覺得這樣子的話我們公司放假我們整個政府所以我剛剛講過五一勞動日本來就全國的勞工都放假我問你這樣子說我們政府沒有放假我們勞工放假你們政府放假的時候我們勞工要去辦事情誰來辦我們政府不要講你們政府不是啊所以說我們的公務人員如果公務人員全部放假"},{"start":6538.835,"end":6544.877,"text":"我們勞工要來去辦事情 所以你們公務人員全部放假的話勞工找誰來辦 對不對 我們教師姐我們勞工放假 教師姐不放假所以她的小孩誰來照顧 所以我們希望說我們要對勞工我們是有分公職跟勞工 我們是要有公務人員"},{"start":6564.204,"end":6571.968,"text":"但是大家都是在為上班的時間是一樣的我們就是早上晚上這樣但是我們要去定這樣子的話我們變成我們影響整個家庭現在大家生育率都很少了如果整個家庭都沒有家庭日所以這樣子的話我覺得部長我們要求這樣子我覺得是很人性很符合我們的家庭"},{"start":6592.499,"end":6605.444,"text":"希望我們的家庭更好因為每一個人在外打拼都是為了我們的家庭為了我們的小孩但是公放假婆不放假婆放假公不放假小孩就是沒人照顧所以變成我們要一致性讓大家有這個家庭日所以希望說我們部長要回應不好意思"},{"start":6618.956,"end":6621.637,"text":"我們的休假是勞動基準的權利也因為我們的工時太長所以我們希望視為說同樣的教師節還有勞動節是各放一天還有我們希望也不要再去補班所以保障我們的權利還有交易"},{"start":6640.281,"end":6643.304,"text":"的工作權利以上希望我們的部長就是要謹慎去考慮我們的權利讓我們家庭更幸福更美滿還有經濟更好以上謝謝好謝謝麥立正委員下一位我們請張宏祿召回資訊"},{"start":6673.801,"end":6698.283,"text":"來 我請內政部長跟勞動部次長柳部長 李次長有請稍微好來 不敢齁 來那個部長 其實關於這個放假其實每個會期 每一屆幾乎都有討論過吧 對不對對那為什麼沒有辦法做成決定因為牽扯的太多了 是不是"},{"start":6699.624,"end":6724.121,"text":"對 因為加入太多不同的因素不是只有純粹訂定這個節日跟紀念日而已如果純粹訂定節日跟紀念日的話站在內政部的權責方向的話會比較單純但是因為牽涉到哪一個部門或是哪一個企業或是哪一個職業哪一種身份要放假那放假的問題就是一個很大需要大家有不同的爭點 需要有泥鋸共識"},{"start":6725.522,"end":6748.437,"text":"對嘛 所以部長其實剛剛那個遊委員在問的時候有說什麼這個放假日要不要增加其實我覺得部長整個內政部目前應該也是持開放的態度但是大家要討論嘛 是的沒錯是不是開放的討論 是開放的大家要討論嘛因為這牽扯到"},{"start":6750.31,"end":6773.726,"text":"其他部會啊對不對我剛剛也有委員在問啊好啊要家庭日要什麼我想請問一下春節連假是不是都很多天是今年剛過去的蠻多天的每年都有好幾天啦對不對那關於交通運輸業的勞工要不要上班"},{"start":6774.366,"end":6792.516,"text":"他們當然都要上班而且要上非常常識的班不管交通運輸業或是其他的服務業或者是警察或者是消防等等這些都是要24小時待班的我們先不用管到警消我們先講一般的對不對你一般的我們就做簡單的出國搭飛機"},{"start":6796.26,"end":6812.908,"text":"要不要有空服人員要不要有人服務你飛機才能飛啊對不對那你就要反加你的公車你的這個高鐵要不要有人開這些的勞工是不是有上班啊這個可以請勞動部次長回答"},{"start":6815.063,"end":6834.064,"text":"那個先前我報告的時候已經提到我們很多行業他是一般的民眾在放假休息的時候他反而是他的工作的高峰期他必須要輪班來提供服務符合大眾需要對嘛再來這個是大型的如果是小型企業"},{"start":6835.805,"end":6849.411,"text":"兩三個人的這種小型企業他們沒有辦法就我必須要講他有辦法說如果沒逢放假日他就放假嗎"},{"start":6852.185,"end":6870.701,"text":"這個就像剛剛我講如果是像觀光業、旅宿業甚至運輸業、航空業他們就是一般民眾在休息的時候他就是他服務的高峰他可能就沒有辦法我們先不管啦一個小管制他可能請的服務人員只有兩三個啊對不對那放假日他要不要上班"},{"start":6872.352,"end":6890.214,"text":"你也不能說他要不要上班吧對不對但有可能老闆請他來上班啊對不對那他如果來上班當然就要加倍的薪資啊不然他就是這個老闆娘可能就把店關掉了沒有人啊對不對那再來大型的企業"},{"start":6891.667,"end":6901.924,"text":"我們舉台積電或什麼大型的是不是都三班輪流制是基本上都是輪班制的日月輪班日月輪班嘛他們受的衝擊"},{"start":6903.837,"end":6926.215,"text":"可能就比較小一點對不對是不是啊還是一樣衝擊很大你說衝擊還是蠻大的這種日夜輪班制如果他剛好碰到那個要放假的話國定假他一樣因為他排班就要出席那你還是要給他那個工資要加倍的我必須說啦工資加倍像大型企業"},{"start":6927.455,"end":6938.834,"text":"他還可以承擔啦還不至於把他逼出走啦但我剛舉的那種小型企業老闆老闆娘可能就我覺得我不要做了啊"},{"start":6939.893,"end":6966.225,"text":"對不對你有沒有看到很多那種小管子或什麼的他因為沒有請不到人所以他歇業市長報紙你有沒有常看到有有去年開始就陸續有這種報導有嘛對不對所以你說要不要放假我覺得這是可以討論但如果說我現在看到這20幾個版本哇"},{"start":6967.543,"end":6993.17,"text":"又要有紀念日又要放假我覺得這樣子沒有好好的討論我真的覺得不行這個會造成混亂所以劉部長我個人是覺得你現在有很多的這一種紀念日其實我們現在就是有紀念沒有放假是不是是的有相當多是屬於有紀念沒放假的"},{"start":6994.3,"end":7019.953,"text":"所以我們在討論這一個我們要不要修法的這個問題上我覺得我們應該要先確定一個紀念日可能很多有兩種一種是全國或是因為風俗民情的那種紀念日那種是全國全台灣一致的那一種可能是對特定的可能軍人節警察節什麼的這部分人的是不是應該要先把它分成這兩種"},{"start":7021.101,"end":7044.839,"text":"是 在我們的實施辦法 我們自己的實施法則裡面就是提到是這一方面的沒有錯所以相當多您所提到的什麼軍人節 警察節 消防節或是甚至兵役節等等這些它其實就是有紀念 但是沒有放假對嘛 我們要先分成這樣嘛 這一個那再來"},{"start":7047.152,"end":7060.689,"text":"以現行的法律條文的制度有沒有需要修法沒有修法要不要去增加放假或什麼的其實你們本來就有紀念日的放假辦法了吧"},{"start":7061.864,"end":7084.862,"text":"本来就有但是我们现在我跟委员报告一下委员非常的清楚其实我们在处理有关于放假与否都是以行政院人事总处在前一年度的年底的时候对外公布让很多公部门或是很多其他的大型企业部门可以跟着这样子的放假的脚步所以我们认为这样比较有弹性包括补班"},{"start":7085.402,"end":7103.189,"text":"不不不部長你說的那個是私刑的現行的制度現行他只是說規定放假幾天什麼我的意思是說如果我們剛剛講的紀念日分兩種那種其實要不要其實這個在內政部裡面的辦法裡面就可以處理這個問題了對不對"},{"start":7105.31,"end":7121.623,"text":"不用修法你們就可以處理了吧對嘛這是一個嘛所以我們應該要聚焦到說你的辦法目前就可以處理這一個問題對不對部長是所以才會衍生第二個要不要放假要怎麼樣的問題吧對不對是"},{"start":7126.049,"end":7138.722,"text":"那個放假什麼的那是第二個問題所以我在說我們今天在討論這個法律我必須要說大家要及時廣義啦不是不能討論但急不得因為牽扯的太廣了"},{"start":7140.283,"end":7142.727,"text":"我們應該把它分成幾個區塊來討論然後牽扯那麼多部會一個一個來處理我覺得這樣子才是一個負責任的做法我不知道部長跟次長你們的看法"},{"start":7156.744,"end":7179.051,"text":"我先來回答啦剛剛那個委員召委所提到的部分在我們現行的紀念日跟節日實施辦法裡面的第五條之二他就有特別提到說規定紀念日跟節日以外具特殊意義有慶祝或舉辦活動必要之日由目的事業主管機關會商有關機關訂定實施之"},{"start":7179.671,"end":7198.457,"text":"也就是說現行的這個實施辦法呢其實就已經可以解決現在大家所關心的這個不同的議題那如果把它變成是一個法律案的話我們有可能每一年不同的放假那每一年都要回到立法院再修一次法律那這個會增加這個法律上適用的一個彈性程度對對好 那次長你解答"},{"start":7201.478,"end":7226.423,"text":"勞動部主張就是說必須要通盤檢討各行各業的營運模式還有工作狀況那還有我們特別關心勞工的期待跟需求讓勞工能夠更好的休息對啦所以啦其實以現有的辦法也可以解決然後各部會其實也都持開放的態度要來解決這個問題只是我們應該要多討論那其實啦有一個重點啦"},{"start":7227.714,"end":7253.688,"text":"今年的放假人事行政總局他都已經公布了啦你要也很難去修改去增加啦所以我們還有半年的時間可以好好來討論這個問題明年把它解決啦我覺得這才是我們應該要去解決的方案那我們也不一定說要拖到半年但是就是時間充裕我認為應該要多多的討論這因為畢竟影響各行各業太多了啦好 謝謝"},{"start":7256.499,"end":7257.48,"text":"好 謝謝張宏祿委員 休息三分鐘"},{"start":7289.485,"end":7289.766,"text":"謝謝大家"},{"start":7303.334,"end":7316.558,"text":"沒有 我覺得是在罵說什麼跟職員的關係其實會有性感的而且到底在哪邊的安排是不是應該保留他的沒有 他在職員的關係因為他這個遊戲是最有 最光榮的我估計就是要 要 要 要"},{"start":7331.532,"end":7350.819,"text":"三倍四倍五倍四倍三倍五倍四倍三倍四倍五倍四倍三倍四倍五倍四倍"},{"start":7354.883,"end":7364.152,"text":"不是美的,它不該是長的它是長的它是長的它是長的它是長的它是長的"},{"start":7374.2,"end":7375.541,"text":"這裏有個大廈,有個大廈"},{"start":7392.928,"end":7398.49,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳有很多不同的餐廳,例如餐廳餐廳,餐廳餐廳,餐廳餐廳,餐廳餐廳餐廳"},{"start":7422.237,"end":7427.861,"text":"這裏有很多不同的雕像。這裏有很多不同的雕像。"},{"start":7443.394,"end":7450.338,"text":"這間餐廳的餐廳是一間餐廳的中間餐廳"},{"start":7466.008,"end":7466.368,"text":"鮮奶油"},{"start":7495.12,"end":7495.922,"text":"這不知道是按照哪一方"},{"start":7529.48,"end":7537.005,"text":"謝謝觀賞"},{"start":7597.066,"end":7600.267,"text":"報告各位同仁我們繼續開會下一位我們請高金素美委員資訊"},{"start":7607.233,"end":7609.416,"text":"謝謝召委 我們有請部長還有這個勞動部的政務次長好 劉部長 李次長有請"},{"start":7618.763,"end":7642.984,"text":"今天我們在內政委員會要討論的是增訂國定假日的議題其實是工會還有包括三十萬原住民勞工在內的所有勞工八年來他們一直說還我七天假運動的延續我們回憶一下他們是從兩千年開始就訴求了希望縮短工時也就是週休二日"},{"start":7644.024,"end":7670.716,"text":"15年之後政府才把法定的工時縮短到每週40個小時勞動部次長你應該很清楚但是這一次以來為了要怕得罪大老闆們我們的政府又把週休二日定成了一例一休勞工是這當中的唯一輸家而這八年來我們看一下工會還有勞工他們透過了集會抗議你看一下照片讓你回憶一下"},{"start":7671.596,"end":7699.382,"text":"工會集會抗議遊行寫寫書絕食非常多的活動就是要希望政府能夠還給勞工七天的假期然而這當中我們的政府每一次的說法工會和勞工他們也都非常理直氣壯的反駁廣大的勞工朋友都非常支持恢復這些被刪除的國家這才是"},{"start":7700.421,"end":7718.257,"text":"沒有打折的明確的落實人權兩公約裡面的勞動人權條款所以我認為有為的政府負責任的政府應該要把三除七天的國定假日要全數恢復放假請問部長跟次長的意見簡短好嗎"},{"start":7721.834,"end":7748.112,"text":"謝謝高靜雯的吹詢我想我們尊重高靜雯對於所謂的勞工所要放假的議題但是我所了解蔡總統她所謂的還勞工十天假的前言跟後語應該要一起來看因為當時並沒有修所謂的週休二日的部分那目前為止我們累計的週休二日加在一起全國的放假日是有115天到116天跟當時只有不到90天或100天的時間差非常的多"},{"start":7749.464,"end":7760.287,"text":"所以我現在要求的就是因為今天召委有牌嘛所以大家好好的來討論嘛唯一的重點剛剛那個次長您說了希望還給勞工的權益嘛對不對那既然是還給勞工的權益的話我就希望我們能夠來討論可以嗎然後真正的把權益還給勞工真正的要恢復人權兩公約裡面的勞動人權可以嗎我不要花太多的時間您說好不好我們來討論"},{"start":7778.952,"end":7794.497,"text":"我們認為這個案子本來就有討論的空間好 可以討論 好 謝謝那請兩位先回然後請園民會主委曾主委有請主委你對於我們幾個原住民所提的碎石記憶要放假這件事情你有什麼看法"},{"start":7795.93,"end":7813.883,"text":"碎石祭儀放假我覺得我們是很樂觀希望因為原住民的這個碎石祭儀他們尤其是還要回到自己的部落大家都希望能夠三天這是有原因的因為這個部落整個的祭儀不會是只有一天有時候三天有時候一個禮拜甚至有的一個月"},{"start":7815.264,"end":7841.313,"text":"這個是我們認為是應該是要這樣子來體諒我們自己的族人好所以曾主委您是跟族人站在一起的所以希望您把這個聲音好好的跟我們的內政部我們的部長來討論一下讓他清楚到部落的狀況第二個我在這個也有提到援助民族歷史轉型正義日還有援助民族抵抗日您的看法"},{"start":7842.635,"end":7860.372,"text":"這個我想因為這個是一個值得紀念的一個時間那我們也可以建議就是說是不是我們就是尊重委員的這個建議那我們是不是跟內政部跟相關部會 你知道我提這兩個有什麼意義嗎一個是10月31號一個是6月26號"},{"start":7864.229,"end":7880.066,"text":"一個是強制就是沒說我們原住民土地的那個很好我完整的講一下10月31號這一天對於我們原住民是非常重要的因為在1895年的10月31號殖民的日本總督府他片面"},{"start":7880.746,"end":7901.383,"text":"發布了翻地等於無阻地等於關有地的日令第26號這項命令呢它強制沒收了台灣原住民族數千年來賴以生存的土地跟領域這使我們原住民流離失所淪為邊緣的群體而這個殖民命令一直到1945年台灣光復之後才被廢止"},{"start":7902.023,"end":7923.519,"text":"但是儘管這樣你很清楚原住民當初被沒收的土地還有領域沒有全副輝煌給我們1947年國民政府直接沿襲了日本殖民者的番人所要地歸地改名為三地保留地所以我講的原住民的這兩個日子是跟"},{"start":7924.46,"end":7945.418,"text":"政權沒有關係跟誰執政沒有關係跟政黨沒有關係它是原住民的轉型正義好我們看1994年又改名為現在的原住民保留地所以呢當時這個翻人索要地的24萬多公頃它是按照當時殖民普查原住民人口多少8萬人"},{"start":7946.899,"end":7963.306,"text":"這八萬人一個人是三萬公頃的基準算出來的可是呢現在原住民人口有多少主委你很清楚將近六十萬人但是我們的保留地可以讓我們維生的還停留在二十四萬多公頃"},{"start":7964.346,"end":7992.776,"text":"所以這就是1980年代原住民族發動還我土地運動最重要的原因這是殖民和威權體制為了經濟掠奪還有節省統治的成本對原住民的土地還有領域不正義的剝奪所以我認為10月31號應該要定為台灣原住民族的歷史轉型正義日以上我提的這段歷史正不正確"},{"start":7993.656,"end":8007.243,"text":"是我們尊重委員的所以你也同意不管他放不放假但是這一天一定要作為歷史轉型這一日另外為什麼要有援助民主抵抗日您知道嗎我還提6月26號沒關係因為今天時間有限"},{"start":8016.567,"end":8036.543,"text":"主委您看您都不知道更何況我們全國人民更何況我們的族人為什麼現在我們的民進黨政府一直在講反威權一直在講轉型正義就是要切割原住民的正義所以這一天非常的重要這一天6月26號我們看一下1910年"},{"start":8041.627,"end":8059.538,"text":"日本殖民總督佐久堅佐馬太他對台灣原住民發動了五年的里番戰爭他企圖由北到南全面要殲滅原住民族的抵抗者為了什麼 山林之源1914年佐久堅佐馬太他動員了軍警民 總共兩萬人"},{"start":8065.262,"end":8083.779,"text":"他攻打不到三千人的太魯閣戰士所以在6月26號這天佐佐兼佐瑪泰他在利烏西叛的希拉歐卡他被我們太魯閣族人伏擊了他重傷落馬因而死亡"},{"start":8084.64,"end":8104.587,"text":"所以這是台灣原住民族抗日戰役中非常重要的歷史性的勝利所以我認為6月26號這一天我們應該要定為原住民族的抵抗日這對於現在我們政府一直在談的全民原教有積極的意義"},{"start":8105.407,"end":8123.737,"text":"所以我們原住民要秉持這樣的對抗的精神實現原住民土地的轉型正義你同意嗎好 花一點時間再給大家看一下這不是只有台灣原住民高精素沒在這邊喊喔我就簡單提兩個例子第一個"},{"start":8124.818,"end":8144.738,"text":"他是世界的潮流我們看其他的國家2002年的委內瑞拉總統查維茲他把10月12號也就是以前所稱的哥倫布登陸美洲的這一天把他改為成什麼原住民族的抵抗日因為 對"},{"start":8146.5,"end":8163.614,"text":"委內拉的原住民來說這一天也是我們的抵抗日再來看一下2011年波利維亞政府他把這一天也就是10月12號定為去殖民化日所以"},{"start":8165.905,"end":8186.664,"text":"這是世界潮流不是只有原住民族不是只有台灣更何況民進黨政府不斷的口口聲聲說台灣原住民族是台灣的主人既然是主人的話我們就應該讓我們的全民讓原住民的孩子清楚知道原住民族的歷史日子這才符合全民"},{"start":8187.685,"end":8211.367,"text":"全民原教這才符合所謂的轉型正義好嗎所以主委你都同意所以我們到時候在討論的時候希望您跟行政院希望您跟我們的部長能夠把這段歷史再說明一段給他們聽好不好我也希望我們的專委能夠儘早的來排逐條審查然後也讓原住民的轉型正義及早實現謝謝"},{"start":8214.549,"end":8215.93,"text":"謝謝有請劉部長跟勞動部次長劉部長、李次長有請"},{"start":8247.71,"end":8272.415,"text":"今天是審查紀念日跟節日的實施草案剛剛很多委員也講得非常清楚那部長論述更清楚多數委員的版本都提出要把這些放假的日期改成法律位階那其實事實上剛剛也講得很清楚這其實是用行政方法就可以處理那我把它歸類成幾個第一個就是"},{"start":8273.355,"end":8284.444,"text":"紀念日的放假紀念日的放假就是包含這個1月1號啦然後我們的和平紀念日要講清楚這和平紀念日是要紀念是要記得這一天"},{"start":8285.014,"end":8302.375,"text":"而不是去慶祝這一天 這是紀念日好 國慶日的放假 還有行縣紀念日行縣紀念日要不要放假你記得憲法的五權分立嗎你記得憲法對於立法院的規定等等嗎要不要放假 這個其實可以來討論"},{"start":8303.496,"end":8323.859,"text":"那第二個就是民俗節日的放假包含過年農曆春節包含端午節中秋節包含快要即將來臨的掃墓節清明節然後還有一個就是節日的放假包含兒童節跟清明節連在一起那軍人節要不要放假"},{"start":8325.01,"end":8339.97,"text":"那勞動節要不要放假這個是大家接下來要討論的東西好更多的版本現在提到對於族群文化的重視包含原住民文化到底要不要放假包含客家文化到底要不要放假"},{"start":8340.47,"end":8366.193,"text":"多元族群到底要不要放假多元族群包含有委員也提出來國民體育日國家防災日要不要放假這個都是在這個族群方面的好 特殊的節日包含警察節要不要紀念要不要放假消防節要不要紀念要不要放假教師節要不要紀念要不要放假一共所有這些版本加起來"},{"start":8367.55,"end":8377.416,"text":"目前我們的這個節日放假的節日一共有11天那我們把剛剛我這樣細數過來的所有的版本加起來會增加到32天"},{"start":8379.616,"end":8397.385,"text":"那會增加到32天跟這個部長我們想要討論的是釐清的就是說節日跟國定假日要不要放在一起紀念日跟假日紀念日要不要一定放假可不可以請部長說明一下紀念日跟放假的概念我們到底要"},{"start":8398.325,"end":8418.482,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢 我也非常關心這個議題我想我們剛剛有提到說這要分兩個層次來看待一個就是如果它是假日或是節日的話呢 它會有訂定的辦法但是假日跟節日到底要不要放假那就是由目的事業主管機關跟相關的機關會同來實施現在是現行的辦法是這樣子"},{"start":8419.302,"end":8442.674,"text":"那目前我們在執行的過程當中呢當然會碰到一些困擾就是剛剛大家所說的如果你的連假很長那補班的時候要不要補班那我們就是擔心補班會造成困擾所以會在前一年度人事行政總局就會對外公佈像譬如說今年的整個的放假天數跟包括要補班或者是要連假的部分在去年的11月左右就會對外來公佈那這個呢只能規範到就是公務系統的軍公教"},{"start":8447.777,"end":8469.469,"text":"但是因為我們台灣的很多企業界他是跟著公務部門一起放假的所以就變成行政院的人事行政總署發出去那個針對全國的軍公教放假補班留班日等等這些他們就跟著一起來執行那當然這有方便跟不方便的地方那所以現在呢把它立法以後呢會變成會比較共識會比較難會變成"},{"start":8472.35,"end":8496.83,"text":"今年有今年的法律明年有明年的法律那我們變得年年都要修法才能夠定定那一年什麼時候放假什麼時候不放假這是我們認為說倉促入法會比較沒有共識的原因之一對所以沒有人說這個應該放這個不應該放但是其實現在的法律就可以讓大家的上班日跟放假日會比較有彈性一點的去讓我講最簡單的"},{"start":8498.471,"end":8523.711,"text":"接下來是勞動部來部長你先請回座接下來是勞動部的執行一對夫妻啊那現在一個先生可能是公務員那太太可能是勞工那遇到強制要放假的時候勞工還是要輪班嘛那輪班對企業主來講剛剛講的企業主來講他可能就是付兩倍的薪水"},{"start":8524.295,"end":8540.602,"text":"但是對更多的這些庶民經濟來講我講的是比如說咖啡店比如說這些很小的餐飲我在高雄有一家很有名的牛肉麵店他曾經就貼出來了那一天讓我非常扼腕那一天就是一個連假嘛"},{"start":8542.313,"end":8566.608,"text":"連假休息很正常通常他都外面都會貼說4月3號到5號這個清明連假放假沒有他是貼說我請不到人休假但是不知道什麼時候可以請到人那什麼什麼時候遇到這種狀況當這個我們強制他要這個國定假日休假到你如果說到現在的版本32天的話那會產生什麼什麼什麼狀況"},{"start":8571.485,"end":8598.467,"text":"先生可能公務員他就放假了嘛那太太他可能必須也跟著先生放假他有他的選擇他不要領兩倍的薪水他有他的選擇他也放假他也放假的話這一個可能咖啡店或可能這一個小餐廳他就出現剛剛我講的這個狀況貼了貼紙出來說我沒有辦法營業因為我們假日沒有人營業另外一種狀況就是這個僱主"},{"start":8602.592,"end":8631.483,"text":"當這個僱主每次遇到這些連假的時候都找不到人的時候都沒有人可以輪班的時候這家店其實他不只面臨這些這些固定假日他要休息這家店很有可能他會走向關門他會因為找不到找不到這個員工關門那我們也不是反對我們是覺得這32天的提出來的這些不管是紀念日或者是假日跟台灣現在目前"},{"start":8632.139,"end":8660.451,"text":"所這樣運行的這些狀況加上一例一休執行以來的這些狀況必須要切合現在台灣社會的狀況那次長我想請教你從一例一休以來目前台灣所有勞工的這些一例一休的比例有做多大的提升是謝謝委員跟委員報告那個我們勞動部有調查2015年就一例一休修法之前"},{"start":8661.434,"end":8689.562,"text":"有事業單位規定勞工每週工作五天的那個事業單位的比例大概是76%可是到接下來一例修法之後就逐年的增加到2021年事業單位規定勞工每週工作只要五天的事業單位比例已經提升到87%87%等於少了增加了12%那同樣的勞工的部分也一樣就是說"},{"start":8691.282,"end":8703.914,"text":"2016年是勞工在世界單位規定下勞工每週工作5天的那個比例其實是86%可是到2021年已經增加到94%其實依你這個數字來講"},{"start":8708.058,"end":8733.727,"text":"增加到90幾%的話其實現在所有我剛剛講的很多的這些實體的小店面其實他已經是事情這個最容易發生問題的就是在10人以下的你做這個改變的時候他必須要做快速的因應所以我覺得還是需要社會廣泛的多討論接下來我們這個討論到底要讓台灣社會放多少價那社會這些小店家是可以承受的是謝謝同意委員謝謝"},{"start":8735.97,"end":8738.831,"text":"好 謝謝李柏毅委員 接下來我們請王美惠委員質詢主席我們要報到劉部長有請"},{"start":8754.976,"end":8760.059,"text":"有的好,有的沒有部長,在剛才我們討論當中,就是說到要如何休眠可以補完工,我們現在就工了是在剛才你所工作報告裡面也說,我們的國庭假日已經十一工了如果實際,週休二日,我們也已經一天當中休十八十五工,到十八十六工了"},{"start":8784.375,"end":8785.256,"text":"在365天的一天,在你做3天多,還可以休息一天啊但是現在就是說,面臨我們六天的問題啦因為六天說實在的啦,如果說那麼實在的"},{"start":8802.532,"end":8805.975,"text":"老公就是說 你的假日 你的國庭假日要休息跟公司叫我不能休息 跟我要上班的時候是不是有那個加班實績 捏到兩倍的錢啦這才是重要啦"},{"start":8821.03,"end":8826.151,"text":"因為我覺得這是最危險的因為我們今天要想辦法如何能夠包括我們的勞工也好包括我們的公務人員也好都是拿出來探討因為我覺得你未來大家會更加協商會更看如何比較我們可以更好"},{"start":8846.255,"end":8850.84,"text":"在這個過程當中,說實在,陸軍也有非常辛苦像有的,有提起說,他的族群像台灣,我們的人民會,我們提出,他覺得陸軍一天不夠要再三天,再過天假日,這是一對英官主義"},{"start":8871.585,"end":8881.179,"text":"會關心要怎麼去控制,讓他們的關注民,會完全知道,他們的封面製,他們的活動,讓他們聽聽順順,都知道這個規定"},{"start":8886.707,"end":8887.928,"text":"在這個當中 像有警察 我也覺得警察罪很辛苦消防罪 消防罪也很辛苦每一個說出來的單位都非常辛苦"},{"start":8902.58,"end":8910.523,"text":"他們說要如何依你的轉抑,要如何讓大家知道這個局面的情況,這個局面要多久我們不是說有時要求和平日,日日末,日日末對我們來說"},{"start":8922.168,"end":8934.071,"text":"是非常心疼的日子不是發音不末像保安公司說我們要請求打幾次這是要讓我們中華民國的台灣不可以忘記這間所發生的事所以在這個過程我剛才也聽到我們的董事會說823反共的日子"},{"start":8950.253,"end":8954.315,"text":"沒有要反抗喔,他不說要紀念要休息喔這樣說實在,我們這個紀念跟休息的定義是什麼?像北京剛才本席從北海講到現在跟你們有什麼好好的意見嗎?包括剛才我們的延命會也說出"},{"start":8975.764,"end":8980.007,"text":"我相信我們內政部所講的紀念日的部分我是認為說有很多人不關心紀念日是在紀念什麼東西"},{"start":8992.654,"end":8998.659,"text":"這就是我剛才說的,好評人有很多紀念的時候,我們還知道,我們今天的效盤是紀念什麼事情,這是最要求的所以我們可能對一些歷史或是文化或是一些教育有斷層所以很多人覺得了解日日白天可以放假"},{"start":9015.512,"end":9021.256,"text":"不是在紀念 至於公家機關顧問這個二禮拜和平紀念日會有很多不同意外其他人覺得那天就是放假那天就是要看報會公司有沒有派接那天就是要去釋放事實上這就是違反了我們原來希望說紀念日讓大家了解比如說我以二禮拜來說二禮拜到底是發生什麼事情是不是違反對抗民主所發生的一些歷史的一些意義沒有人講得清楚"},{"start":9045.712,"end":9049.994,"text":"所以我剛才有跟各位說過包括有勞動節我認為很多勞工在5月初一那天勞動節本來就是放假但是現在有人就是用勞動節要轉個放假我剛才有說到勞動節轉個放假是什麼人要放假呢就是軍公告放假然後勞動節那天放假的時候本來公司企業就是要讓"},{"start":9069.522,"end":9076.948,"text":"那天出來露洞 露洞的兄弟姊妹本來就是要加班費所以我們要用兩個戰俱來看那天如果是全國放假的時候 要加班費是不是按照露洞基準法裡面所通過 要有兩倍的薪水對 不然的話 這是說 這個是最要緊的就是那天的國務委員會他休息嘛 是跟北省大家都休息的時候"},{"start":9093.502,"end":9098.488,"text":"他們一定會 他們今天這天休息沒什麼意義 因為你還要一天加班給他不讓他報告 要是特休還是加班所以變成是六黨部門的問題 跟另外今天要想說紀念日的實施辦法比較不完全的關係"},{"start":9114.325,"end":9123.177,"text":"在這裡我剛才有說,因為我認為高進數美委員他為了我們的官署名,我相信他如果好,有你也好,都為了他們的族群的發表的紀念,剛才他們說的,我也覺得說"},{"start":9132.108,"end":9138.052,"text":"這既然讓他知道,他們的過程會過去,日出不能買一件,也不能重演啦所以說,普通人在這裡,我也覺得說,大家像這樣好好討論別說沒討論,真的沒討論,也不好,我們互相的討論,提出我們的大名是什麼,歡樂的是什麼尤其,我們要去更改,就是剛才我說的"},{"start":9162.148,"end":9165.332,"text":"每年因為今年已經暑假了,沒辦法再過一兩個月就夠了,跟我們的年薪也已經發佈了,是未來每年的時候,要怎麼下去處理,那個多一天"},{"start":9177.885,"end":9188.114,"text":"會加班費嗎?所以在這裏面,我也願望部長和所有的單位都要去邀請,因為說實在的,我們的勞工也非常辛苦。剛才本席說的,做不做,加班也加班。他也願望,他可以在大家都休息,他出來加班的時候,是可以捏到加班。"},{"start":9205.849,"end":9217.616,"text":"要一人來探一人,最主要的就是這樣嘛不然他怎麼跟人家去上班,上班的時候像現在我們做修二日,是怎麼他要出來做所以我們運馬,我們的勞動部次長,等於也要演藝,可以補充我們的感覺"},{"start":9227.982,"end":9233.145,"text":"因為說實在的,小英也好,我相信大家坐在這裡的民運代表,我們都是勞工界最好的後盾,但是我們也是企業界最好的後盾"},{"start":9243.951,"end":9251.76,"text":"因為企業界,你一定要讓他想準確的,不說一句話不說一句話,要努力多天,大家都要去努力要去,但是兩方的平衡的時候,我們要怎樣去找到最好的"},{"start":9260.949,"end":9265.591,"text":"好,感謝我們王美惠委員下一位我們請黃婕委員質詢"},{"start":9298.834,"end":9319.687,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請內政部長劉部長有請黃委員好好部長好今天這個題目其實像剛剛部長已經有提到說要不要紀念跟要不要放假其實是兩個層次那我希望部長可以在這邊跟大家再說明一次就是為什麼有的紀念日"},{"start":9320.467,"end":9343.486,"text":"跟要不要放假是兩件事呢是根據我們現在的一個實施辦法我們認為說有12個紀念日6個民俗節日跟9個特定節日其中是規定全國放假日那就是中華民國的開國紀念日還有和平紀念日國慶日春節民主掃墓節端午節中秋節農曆除夕跟兒童節一共有11天是"},{"start":9344.947,"end":9372.847,"text":"這是我們認為說第一個符合國際的潮流譬如說裡面的這個我們的那個民俗節日裡面還有另外一個我們自己台灣在過去的歷史裡面包括和平紀念日或者是國慶日等等這些都是我們值得紀念的所以既然它是紀念節日的話我們認為全國放假剛好是全國居民同胞都應該把這個重要的節日當成是我們歷史傳承裡面非常重要的一環"},{"start":9373.53,"end":9397.044,"text":"好謝謝部長的說明所以其實啊因為今天總共有26個委員的版本那我看了一下其實大家的提的方向也非常的分歧包括說名目很分歧要不要放假也很分歧變成說有的是認為這個要設紀念日但有的認為說這個要設紀念日而且要放假那有的是說有些設紀念日但是不用放假那導致說這26個版本下去討論"},{"start":9399.205,"end":9407.212,"text":"沒完沒了因為太分歧了包括剛剛其實有一些提案委員有說到說他認為說行限紀念日要來放假那我聽了也覺得蠻諷刺的一個被大法官判違憲的一個立法委員然後來說要倡議這個行限紀念日那我當然會覺得是不是有討論空間"},{"start":9420.302,"end":9443.788,"text":"那包括說有一個委員也提到說他希望823應該要來紀念那我認為說823的精神就是反共那這個委員本身也不反共那他來提823是不是也很諷刺呢那所以包括說這一些名目到底哪一些節日應該要被紀念是不是一項一項該來討論那也包括說如果是我個人的立場我也認為說4月7號的言論自由日是不是應該要來放假"},{"start":9446.789,"end":9476.088,"text":"那5月24號是不是應該作為婚姻平權紀念日是不是也應該來放假如此這樣子名目分歧討論下去可能會沒完沒了所以我也認為這件事情必須要有更多的共識包括哪一些節日值得被全國的人民來紀念包括哪一些的名目是應該要真的全國來放假的都有非常多的討論空間因為其實剛剛也有提到說有一些委員是希望說特定的"},{"start":9476.848,"end":9502.608,"text":"職業別來放假包括警察節消防節那可能也有的委員覺得說那是不是醫師節護理師節所有的職業別當天都要來爭取放假呢那我覺得都沒有不好但是如果要討論變成是非常需要所有全民的共識才能最後凝聚出一個共識那最後呢我還是要請教一下部長"},{"start":9503.388,"end":9511.858,"text":"那到底是這些剛剛所說的這一大堆的國定假日要放在辦法比較好還是應該要立法來處理比較好呢"},{"start":9512.698,"end":9539.372,"text":"其實如果以委員的高度來看待這件事情的話我認為說立法也我們不敢排斥因為已經有26個委員立法不能夠一竿子就打翻一條船但是我剛提到了立法下去以後會變成沒有彈性所謂的沒有彈性譬如說剛剛委員提到我們認為台灣的言論自由日4月7號應該現在有紀念但是沒有放假"},{"start":9539.912,"end":9554.107,"text":"但是也許過兩年以後人家會覺得要紀念又要放假那你要不要修法或者是說這個行限紀念日我們認為它是行限紀念日12月25號可是對於很多年輕族群它這個叫做聖誕節"},{"start":9556.049,"end":9581.099,"text":"那既然你是聖誕節的話呢假設台灣是尊重很多不同的這個宗教那道教節要不要放假那佛誕升天節要不要放假那就變成會沒完沒了那這樣子呢會變成是說會以大眾的一個想法為想法的話那幾乎每一天都放假日那如果幾乎每一天都放假日的話呢或者是有三分之一以上都在放假的話那"},{"start":9582.259,"end":9593.212,"text":"所影響到的我想軍公教還是按照法令應該怎麼執行就怎麼走但是很多企業界很多人會認為說你多放假那個少放假是為了大財團不是我們在討論的過程當中其實最大沒有辦法達到共識的就是"},{"start":9599.179,"end":9623.252,"text":"中小企業界或者像我們現在所了解像小吃攤咖啡廳等等它一個餐廳裡面呢可能是老闆老闆娘然後只有請一個跟兩個那你因為要放假它要合乎我們的法令的規範的話它要給兩倍甚至說如果是過年期間又碰到所謂的放假日的話說不定比兩倍還要更多否則你沒辦法留住這些勞動人口反而是造成"},{"start":9623.932,"end":9633.016,"text":"好者越好然後越壞者他越糟糕所以才會造成剛剛有五人提到明明是放假日應該很多人潮可以去賺錢賺一點小的生意錢的部分他要關門因為沒有人手或者會變成這個"},{"start":9639.119,"end":9642.3,"text":"譬如說我們現在在長期照顧長期照顧是一年365天每天24小時的哪有放假日你把放假日增加的結果是造成很多需要有人長期照顧的家庭"},{"start":9659.946,"end":9665.091,"text":"支付更多的長期照護的工作者的負擔那這些呢其實我們在勞動部門或者是衛福部門或者是軍公教部門都沒有一個很好的共識可是我們還是保持一個開放的態度認為說是不是在"},{"start":9675.68,"end":9697.986,"text":"放假天數上面大家來考量一下可不可以大家都會有覺得是否有討論的空間但是你現在硬把它放在這個框架裡面的話呢就像我剛剛所講的每一年我們要到立法院來報告一次這個假日的辦法明年要怎麼放假要不然就沒辦法修法那如果沒辦法修法的話呢那這個法律案呢其實它就沒有彈性"},{"start":9698.936,"end":9720.77,"text":"好謝謝部長非常完整而且詳細的說明那我認為接下來當然要不要放假放哪一些假其實都是大家可以持開放態度來討論但是如果要把它變成是放在立法裡面的話可能變成每一年都要重新修法反而失去了這個彈性大概是這樣的意思是的好非常謝謝部長那最後一點時間我們是不是請勞動部次長"},{"start":9729.005,"end":9754.338,"text":"好最後的一分鐘我還是要請次長來說明一下因為其實最後啊這個還是要回歸到說一年到底要不要要多放幾天假那這個其實還是可以討論的因為我也還是必須要老實的說台灣的這個工時的政策還是不盡滿意啦還是有非常多的進步空間那我希望勞動部還是要在這邊承諾可以做勞工的後盾"},{"start":9754.858,"end":9781.619,"text":"那如何更照顧到勞工的權益包括如何降低工時提高工資這件事情還是非常重要的那是不是最後請次長來說明一下是謝委當然勞動部一貫的立場長期來就是要維護勞工的權益那特別在工時方面確實我們還有努力空間那工資方面我們也都有一些新的工資政策在陸續推動例如說包括過去這八年來每一年都調高稅率工資那"},{"start":9782.179,"end":9794.735,"text":"最近這個行政院的經濟發展委員會也有做出了這個決議就希望未來在這個薪資透明化的措施方面要更進一步來推動我們農部在跟經管會一起來討論中"},{"start":9796.601,"end":9817.719,"text":"好 謝謝次長的說明那我覺得照顧勞工還是最重要的雖然我認為過去八年每年都調高最低工資了而且其實我們的工時每年也都在降低當中這也都是過去八年民進黨政府的努力那我認為接下來還是有很多進步的空間那這個真的要拜託勞動部繼續努力好嗎應該的好 謝謝好 謝謝黃建斌委員下一位我們請黃建斌委員質詢"},{"start":9834.211,"end":9835.873,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請劉部長部長有請來 文委也好部長早安 部長"},{"start":9845.543,"end":9863.743,"text":"部長應該很多人會拿起以前擔任立法委員期間面對勞基法二修時的作為來做這一次還給勞工七天假的修法評斷本席認為觀察一個政治任務需要長時間本席發現您在擔任內政部長期間"},{"start":9864.984,"end":9889.292,"text":"內政部從2025年開始要率先落實提升內政部所屬機關以勞務承攬進駐員工的薪資標準包括約僱約聘漁農人員及勞務承攬進駐員工像是國家公園以及所屬所屬轄區的清潔人員維護人員等等他的月薪要提高最低工資的1.1倍也就是3.1萬元起對吧"},{"start":9892.571,"end":9902.625,"text":"部長這個是您響應的政府作為加薪引擎的政策這可以代表部長您是相當重視勞工的權益所以請部長您回想一下您當初針對這個加薪的行為你說過什麼樣的話"},{"start":9905.716,"end":9932.928,"text":"我 我有一點忘記 但是知道這件事情柏定 你當時說的是說保障基層員工的權益是政府義不容辭的責任當然 適用中國的標準薪資的提升是一項基本的尊重這個精神非常重要我們可以把勞基法修二的那一塊翻頁既然內政部你很重視我們勞工的權益我們來談談為什麼要放這七天假我想這個絕對不是勞動部或經濟部的事情內政部也可以有自己的態度"},{"start":9934.943,"end":9954.462,"text":"我們從去年2024年12月開始我們勞動部揭露這個國際工時比較中台灣2023年的人均工時達到了2020個小時是全球第五高亞洲第二高我們亞洲僅次於新加坡我們從法定的工時來看台灣跟日韓一樣都是單週40個小時新加坡是單週44個小時"},{"start":9957.745,"end":9978.778,"text":"看起來我們台灣的法定工時沒有比別人差但差別出在哪裡就是在有薪假的規定上面群部長我們國家的國定假日是幾天然後另外我們最喜歡比較的日本跟韓國他們又是幾天國定假日我們的國定假日的放假日是幾天"},{"start":9980.857,"end":9999.197,"text":"不想提醒 台灣是12天如果是勞工的話是12天 抱歉台灣是12天 韓國日本是16跟15天我先提醒我想這個就是在起點相當不同因為除了跨國間的國定價值不同以外還有特休的差異像在年資滿15年之前台灣的特休價基本都少於日韓"},{"start":10000.67,"end":10026.627,"text":"年資只有在滿三年或滿四年大概是贏日本兩天有些人會認為說只要年資夠高我們台灣的特休就高到三十天就明顯勝於日韓了對不對但關鍵因素是什麼我想我們的勞工可不可以在一個工作從一個中這是第一個第二個 不然你擔任過立委嘛不然你的幕僚也就是國會的助理請問他們換了新老闆之後他特休的年假可以累積嗎"},{"start":10027.711,"end":10035.48,"text":"另外 台灣又是中小企業為主台灣中小企業 你知道中小企業的平均壽命是多長嗎國會助理的部分"},{"start":10040.435,"end":10065.232,"text":"我是不是可以請勞動部來回應一下因為有關於勞工放假的部分我們都按照這個規矩不過黃委員所提到說我們內政部在去年年底的時候為了提高我們有一些基層的工作人員的一個費用很抱歉我已經跟他們道歉過了因為我們的114年的預算是把它編在業務費裡面已經被刪跟凍掉了我們今天就我們的學姐來討論"},{"start":10071.256,"end":10093.352,"text":"國會助理的特休假累積並沒有這個規定就是說要看立委本人他要不要讓他休同樣依據我們經濟部中小企業處來統計台灣中小企業的平均壽命是13年你怎麼做滿15年所以這不可能所以我們將法定工時國定假日特別休假轉換成年總工時的時候而且並依照我們年資來計算的話"},{"start":10097.346,"end":10121.938,"text":"韓國他入職的第一年他的總工時是1840個小時為什麼他會低於平均因為他第一年就給15天的特休假然後而後是逐步下降那日本入職第一年是平均是1872個小時因為他第一年的年休假只有10天但是隨即快速下降所以在年資滿了7年之後他的年總工時就低於1800個小時"},{"start":10124.145,"end":10147.977,"text":"因為國定假日少然後我們初入職的特休低於日韓所以台灣勞工入職前兩年的年總工時是在1900小時以上所以年資三到九年之間甚至停滯在1860個小時以上所以你要等到年資滿了九年之後才會逐步下降所以台灣的次度工時在入職前十年"},{"start":10148.817,"end":10172.382,"text":"每年的平均是比日本多出52個小時比韓國多出51.2個小時那這50多個小時代表什麼概念就是說如果我們把七天假加進來台灣的低年資工者的這個制度工時才能夠真正的跟日韓並駕齊驅所以部長你之前也提過說你要保障基層員工的權益是政府"},{"start":10172.862,"end":10196.779,"text":"義不容辭的責任所以我想要請教部長就回答您是否支持讓勞工朋友們多做七天假那改善我們台灣勞工過勞跟這些剝削的情況我剛跟委員報告過了有關於我支持的那個勞動的條件的部分在這次114年預算的業務費已經被煽動掉了我已經跟他們道歉過部長我覺得請問你是否支持就好其實就是要回歸現在的五一勞動節的勞動的勞動門口已經有放假"},{"start":10203.064,"end":10217.616,"text":"是否支持老公朋友能夠有多的假來休息是否支持這樣子就好好另外因為時間的關係主席我再用一點點的時間我想要請教一下我們的那個人事總署今天剛好拉立法院嘛人事總署人事總署有請"},{"start":10223.53,"end":10241.807,"text":"我也好李署長你好署長抱歉因為美式人事總署來到立法院本席就把握機會來跟你們反映有關我們東台佳績的這個問題因為這真的是很多東部公教人員的共同心聲本席絕對會一直爭取把握美式的機會希望中央能夠把基層的聲音能夠聽進去"},{"start":10243.849,"end":10271.507,"text":"我想在年金改革之後 年輕人報考公職的意願越來越低花東地區的公教機構跟學校承受越來越大的壓力那在資源匱乏 還有家鄉補貨的情況之下偏鄉公務人員 教職人員的工作都負擔沉重造成什麼 人員流動頻率越來越高行政效率變低 學生受教的品質也受到影響那現在我們針對公教人員 東台家籍的部分每個月是多少錢"},{"start":10275.289,"end":10293.445,"text":"630塊跟委員抱歉因為那個是另外一個處沒有關係本席要反映給你聽我們都在加息一個月只有630塊這個630塊連台北台東的自強號都買不起都買不起這個誘因政策不足造成公務人員的流動性高我們偏鄉的教師也不願意留下來"},{"start":10294.386,"end":10306.48,"text":"那本席擔任過鄉長我非常了解這樣的工人員的高流動率會讓地方特別是在偏鄉會淪為基層工人員的訓練班等到他訓練完了 年資滿了他可能就回西部 回北部"},{"start":10308.186,"end":10334.611,"text":"所以我們現在建行我們必須要呼籲說你要討論現在現行的制度我們怎麼樣提高花東地區以及偏鄉離島的家籍減少這些因為地區造成不公平的現象增加我們公務員留下來的誘因有效能夠提升我們地方智能的量能我這邊要請處長將相關的信息帶回去人總這邊來討論來改善這個情況很抱歉今天的情況其實我們討論的這個事情是額外"},{"start":10337.131,"end":10347.696,"text":"但是本席很少有機會可以遇到人種所以這要請人種來幫幫忙可以嗎是謝謝組長 這個太麻煩了 組長是 我們會帶回去研究謝謝組長 謝謝部長 謝謝組長 謝謝好 謝謝黃金兵委員下一位我們請徐益臻委員質詢謝謝主席 我們請劉部長 謝謝劉部長有請"},{"start":10371.653,"end":10377.876,"text":"我想請教部長民進黨執政後取消國定的七天假也象徵勞工工時過長政府在制定政策時漠視勞工權益勞工休假削減並不會減少"},{"start":10397.612,"end":10418.761,"text":"並不會真正的促進經濟的發展而是代表的反而會減少這些國人出門消費的一個時間那我們根據勞動部的統計在112年的台灣受僱勞工的總工時是2019.6個小時跟OECD的39個主要國家相比的話我們是大概排名第五"},{"start":10419.341,"end":10438.209,"text":"那鄰近國家不管是日本的1637個小時韓國的1874個小時還有OECD國家的平均的1742個小時我們台灣的勞工特休假大概跟國定假日加起來大概有20天也遠低於日本的26天韓國的30天"},{"start":10441.172,"end":10454.65,"text":"還有歐美的28至60天以及伊朗的53天所以我想部長這些數據都告訴我們勞工的工時明顯過長而休假的權益也明顯不足您是否認同"},{"start":10455.765,"end":10472.943,"text":"報告委員有關工時過長的部分不是由我業務主管單位的部分我們是在關紀念日跟節日的部分要不要放假的問題那我剛剛有特別提到五一勞動節現在就是我們的放假日只是針對全國勞工好我們是不是要不然請李政次來回答這個部分謝謝委員 委好你好"},{"start":10480.322,"end":10508.796,"text":"正式對 您認不認同我們現在我剛剛所講的現在的勞工的工時明顯的過長因為跟其他的OECD的主要國家比我們其實39個國家我們排名第五那這個部分的話請問你認不認同我們的這個勞工的工時過長而且為什麼勞工要爭取這個收國定假日是 謝謝委員吹噓那個如果跟OECD39個國家來比的話確實台灣勞工的年總工時是比較長的我們還是有很大的努力空間 對"},{"start":10510.426,"end":10537.802,"text":"對 那所以您也贊成我們應該要增加勞工的恢復他們七天假的國定假日嗎我認為國定假日的調整它涉及各行各業的營運模式工作型態都不一樣所以要通盤的討論事實上我們認為根據我們保安部的調查國定假日的調整可能是一種途徑可是最重要是加班工時我們必須要有一些行業它的加班工時是比較長的"},{"start":10539.744,"end":10566.223,"text":"這個應該已經討論很久了那如果再這樣無止境的討論下去這個議題當然不會有共識我是覺得勞動部是不是應該有更積極的作為去看哪些行業他們的這個部分可以用什麼方式來解決重點是要解決勞工工時過場的問題那增加他們休假我想這個應該是只是恢復我們過去的國家的七天假對於勞動部來說應該是極力贊成才對我們認為那個通盤考量之後是確實有討論的空間確實"},{"start":10567.984,"end":10592.455,"text":"可是討論多久了還要討論多久這個因為是我們大院的這個討論我們一定會那我覺得勞動部應該要有積極的態度提出相關的數據來去證明說我們的勞工的工時確實過長否則的話說實在您站在這邊我有點搞不清楚你到底是勞動部的政策還是經濟部的政策我們勞動部不是應該站在勞工的立場為他們爭取相關的權益嗎"},{"start":10594.076,"end":10614.735,"text":"我們勞動部一定是站在勞工的權利之下所以我覺得不要再用這種說我們還要再討論沒有共識相關的這個說法應該是要積極的去處理積極的提出相關的政治那為什麼你知道為什麼這個勞工希望能夠再恢復起點價嗎雖然我們有特休假可是像我們的特休假依據我們勞動部的113年勞工生活跟就業狀況的調查報告"},{"start":10619.119,"end":10647.293,"text":"企業對於未休完的特休假有40.5%採取折發工資也就是說他們根本沒辦法休息然後台灣平均勞工的這個有14.7天的特休可是實際平均休假才8.3天尤其是25到34歲的青年勞工特休假只有10.4天但真正休的只有5.4天所以特休假對於很多勞工來說其實是看得到 休不到"},{"start":10647.913,"end":10676.787,"text":"所以只有國定假日呢才有辦法讓他們真正的休假這也是為什麼我們今天在這邊要探討要恢復這七天甚至我想到底幾天大家都還可以來探討啦但重點是恢復國定假日我覺得這個是對現在勞工的權益很有必要來增加的各位說明勞基法它的修正之後特休假排駕權是在勞工手上所以呢勞工可以自己來決定要不要特休或特休幾天那我們勞務部一場"},{"start":10677.327,"end":10699.778,"text":"甚至你應該不會沒有聽過說很多勞工來投訴說事實上他們這些特休假有時候想休的時候是僱主不同意甚至有時候是用情熱的方式告訴你說因為你們部門人數少如果你休可能會造成其他員工的這樣子的一個工作的負擔增加所以用這種情熱的方式也不讓他們休假你應該有聽過吧有聽過那就是說"},{"start":10702.279,"end":10725.225,"text":"這個就是勞基法的但書就如果雇主認為有營運困難那就要徵求勞工的協商跟同意但是基本上排價權還是在勞工手上當然還是在勞工手上可是我剛剛跟你講的那個數據是你們統計的為什麼實際上14.7天只有8.3天的休假絕對我想不是勞工大家都我一定要來加班絕對不是這樣一定是被要求的"},{"start":10725.805,"end":10741.782,"text":"所以我覺得唯有增加國定假日才會讓他們能夠真正能夠休假這是今天我想我們排案主要來審核這個法案的主要原因還是希望勞動部能夠站在我們這個所有廣大勞工的立場那接下來我是不是再請一下劉部長 謝謝劉部長有請"},{"start":10751.48,"end":10771.412,"text":"剛剛我們有提到我們針對特休的部分事實上勞工真的很多是看得到休不到所以卓院長已經特別有講過說假日的調整去符合國家意義符合全國的自信請問一下內政部有沒有研究如果要增加國定假日可以增加在哪幾天"},{"start":10772.941,"end":10794.075,"text":"很抱歉,那個院長他在行政院的質詢的時候是有特別提到第一個我們保持開放的態度那要增加放假的天數是怎麼樣的增加法那我剛在很多委員的垂詢的時候就有特別提到因為我們26個委員所提到的部分我們累計出來有31種不同的假日"},{"start":10794.855,"end":10808.325,"text":"那所以很難做一個統合性不可能每一天都放假不可能提高到說我們放假31天那到底哪一個才是最好其實我們也必須要凝聚有朝野的共識還有我認為公司部門也必須要有共識上個會期我們已經開過公聽會了"},{"start":10813.188,"end":10827.899,"text":"那請問一下內政部針對剛剛你講我們的委員大概目前有31個希望放假的天數那基本上內政部有沒有研究說大概有哪幾天是一定可放或者是大家基本上的共識有沒有哪幾天"},{"start":10828.859,"end":10855.499,"text":"我們要尊重相關部門現在我們兩個諮詢的對象或是研議的對象一個當然就是行政院的人事總署一個當然就是勞動部目前看起來這兩個部會裡面跟內政部要達到一個共識但是裡面還有差一步就是各個委員之間也必須要有一個共識的版本出來我們才能夠講否則後面的版本我想今天做完這個諮詢之後大家一定"},{"start":10855.959,"end":10859.063,"text":"所以我想請教一下這個部長就是為了肯定教師節為教育事業所做的貢獻跟努力請問您贊不贊成教師節要恢復為國定假日"},{"start":10876.061,"end":10892.789,"text":"包括委員教師節要恢復成國定假日是放假日那包括那個委員也提到說可能叫孔子誕辰紀念日那另外一個是民進黨的黨慶那我是覺得說這樣子放下去的話人家會好像是我們為了自己在做放假可是我沒有考慮到"},{"start":10895.151,"end":10904.041,"text":"9月28日我們各種不同的聲音請問你知道國民黨黨慶是幾號嗎不知道一般人不知道對啊 所以我們也不知道不是 我是說我們從不會覺得你們自卑啦但是這裡面會影響到偏鄉教師跟學校的授教權"},{"start":10910.167,"end":10931.464,"text":"如果沒有好好去解決這塊問題的話你要全國放假也是有個困難我想每一個法案或是每一個政策提出一定有很多需要去溝通去努力執行的地方那我相信以劉部長您是來自於這個民意代表的這樣的身份應該有很多的相關的這個"},{"start":10933.005,"end":10948.53,"text":"這個陳情也都讓您知道有很多解決的方法這方面我是對你有信心的你一定有辦法能夠解決另外就是根據今年的就是2025的民生議題的調查我們有個民調顯示就是支持還給勞工7天假有56.7%不支持的只有19.3%"},{"start":10952.832,"end":10969.549,"text":"24%是沒有意見其中支持勞工節全民放假有66.3支持教師節成為國定假日的有64.3支持光復節的有64.1支持行限紀念日的恢復國定假日有65.4所以部長您可以看到"},{"start":10970.049,"end":10984.352,"text":"都有近三分之二的國人支持要放假那我是覺得針對這個部分是不是我們可以大家一起來討論不一定一次就放棄天價我們要到底放幾天價我覺得這個可以討論而且當然現在有講到說對經濟的層面影響很大影響勝據剛剛在您的報告裡可是事實上所謂的影響勝據是多少就四個字而已並沒有真正的數據也是希望說我們大家如果真的會影響的話影響的數據是多少大家再提出來討論"},{"start":10999.775,"end":11013.847,"text":"那因為今天的時間的關係可能要麻煩劉部長針對這個部分尤其是我不好意思我看一下最後一個表格您看一下因為這是我們針對歐洲國家跟亞洲國家各位您可以看到的不管是歐洲國家"},{"start":11015.029,"end":11033.356,"text":"他的這個年假有30天以上可是他的這個GDP來說也比我們高很多然後另外呢這個我們看到日本的法定假日比台灣多8天那他GDP是台灣的5.23倍那韓國也比台灣多12天的假期他的GDP也是台灣的2.13倍"},{"start":11034.916,"end":11050.982,"text":"所以由此可見假期的多寡並不是影響經濟表現的關鍵因素所以這個部分可能要請我們的內政部我們大家再來想好好的想辦法怎麼來增加國定假日讓我們的勞工不會產生過勞這樣子一個狀況那請問一下部長您認同這個"},{"start":11055.506,"end":11074.891,"text":"這個收價並不會真正影響經濟成長的這個說法嗎我們剛剛已經有提過了你所謂的總體經濟還是部分的我剛剛講過就是說小規模的尤其是中小企業界以下他們對於放假日增加出來會增加出的勞動成本是一個比較難估算的部分那這些人數也不少"},{"start":11075.151,"end":11095.259,"text":"因為我們知道說中小企業在台灣大概也是有好幾十萬以上那這些人的聲音反而我們不容易聽到所以我們從上一次10月23在內政委員會裡面所提到的這些中小企業界的聲音我們也要把它考量在內當然支持勞動部但是我們全國勞工有845萬人所以我覺得但是我剛有提到5月1號本來全國勞工都放假只是軍公教沒有放假"},{"start":11103.522,"end":11116.012,"text":"所以我們要解決的是基金公教跟勞工要一起放假的問題不只討論勞工節我們現在是討論七天假所以還是要麻煩部長我們大家共同用智慧來去解決這個問題謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝徐宇貞委員謝謝我們請牛許廷召委"},{"start":11138.217,"end":11161.366,"text":"好 謝謝主席內政部部長有請請劉淑芳部長好 莊委好劉部長辛苦了這個今年2月25號我們這個吳世耀委員在大院提出總質詢的時候其實曾經有詢問過您也有詢問過我們卓榮泰院長是否要針對國定假日的這個法案提出修法的對岸的一個版本還是說請向透過行政命令的方式來處理"},{"start":11162.566,"end":11176.864,"text":"部長那時候的回答是說希望可以維持現狀因為各委員會的版本這剛剛其實都說過了有不同的意見有待整合勞基法修法後的公實已經齊平等等法案的推動要有共識說法也不一樣如果變成法律案會有爭議那當然嘛經過這個雖然喔"},{"start":11181.209,"end":11202.573,"text":"已經也沒有多久但也經過了一段時間到現在快一個月了請問部長態度有改變嗎你今天還是用一樣的說法來回應大家的期待我今天的報告就講得非常的清楚我覺得爭議仍然很大但是裡面有一塊我剛剛提到了第一個目的失業主管機關也就是說大家比較在乎的所謂的要不要勞動節那一天全國放假這個議題分成兩個層次第一個在我們的節日的實施辦法裡面勞動節那一天勞動者就是放假"},{"start":11210.834,"end":11238.972,"text":"那不是勞動者也就是說廣泛來講沒有領到沒有用勞保的這些軍公教的人要不要跟著一起放假但是我提到了如果要一起放假的話要有共識這個共識就是要跟人事行政總處大家來交換意見所以院長在聽到我們報告的時候特別提到我們保持開放的態度看用什麼方式來解決但是因為剛剛可能有幾位委員有提到過今年的放假日在去年年底的時候已經公布了"},{"start":11239.332,"end":11259.991,"text":"包括補班日大家也都執行了像今年的春節就是這樣子那明年的話我們還有一段時間我希望說可以讓它可以和緩大家會有共識出來然後不要變成是朝野對立或是政黨對立的議題所以目前我在回答委員的問題的時候幾乎都是站在這樣的立場做回應好 可以了我覺得時間有限"},{"start":11261.372,"end":11279.603,"text":"這個你說不希望這樣子的題目變成朝野的對立也不希望變成政治性的題目這一點本席敬表尊重其實也表達同意但其實在行訴共識的過程之中總要有各個不同的版本來做討論嘛不瞞不長講啦這個在野黨提案的委員數量雖然多但在野黨當然也會做所謂的法案整合嘛"},{"start":11280.043,"end":11298.94,"text":"所以到進入大體討論甚至到主條討論之前它的版本當然就會再做精簡但是我要問既然我們今天要追尋的是盡量求這件事情的圓滿那麼請問執政黨這一端它會不會有版本這個其實是大家很關心的問題之前曾經有媒體有報導說可能行政院會有所謂的院版"},{"start":11299.981,"end":11317.022,"text":"請問到底有沒有這樣的規劃因為就我本席了解這個勞團前一陣子也到行政院去陳情嘛所以希望看到有願板的這樣一個機會那如果願板的內容當然就由內政部來做主責嘛你會不會增加放假的天數還是說從頭到尾現在就是沒有願板我們總是要把這個事情釐清一下如果有願板我們早就提供出來給委員參考了"},{"start":11318.604,"end":11334.813,"text":"也就是說行政院在內部考量的時候他變成是所有的部會都要提供他們的意見那院長還是保持開放的態度因為我們都知道說這裡面除了特定的特殊身份的族群以外還有一些是屬於世代的差距"},{"start":11335.934,"end":11352.612,"text":"所謂的世代差距的話譬如說年紀比較大的覺得說何必放假那年紀比較輕的就是趕快放假包括228我們是紀念日也把他當成是慶祝228所以事實上就會有點沒有辦法有一個共識之來所以你的意思就是不會有認版也不會提"},{"start":11352.912,"end":11380.651,"text":"目前為止沒有院版但是我們也就是我們希望維持現狀啦維持現在的實施辦法也就是維持現在的實施辦法剛剛部長喔在講實施辦法的時候當然就是說速度比較快比較有彈性對不對不過我也要提醒部長一個比較殘酷的事實啦我們今天站在這邊當然是要幫勞工朋友講話嘛就是說節日與紀念日的這個實施辦法在以行政命令的層級由行政機關來主管的情況下就本席的了解從來沒有幫勞工增加假日啦砍掉倒是速度挺快的但是都沒有增加嘛"},{"start":11380.882,"end":11406.858,"text":"抱歉這個不是在節日實施辦法裡面這樣做的我們節日實施辦法勞動節本來就是一個我不是講勞動節我講就是國定假日的天數嘛你現在是不是行政命令可以處理如果今天我們的政府非常有誠意而且很快願意還給勞工七天假你今天行政命令一下去其實七天假就還來了嘛我還是要再跟各位委員報告沒有所謂的還我勞工七天假這樣的議題至少在行政部門裡面從來不會出現還我勞工七天假因為這是一個政治議題"},{"start":11408.36,"end":11427.416,"text":"我們不希望說用這個朝野對峙的方式來處理有關勞工放假的議題這不是朝野的問題啦還勞工七天假其實是勞工團體跟很多勞工朋友期待的那個我尊重但是不是行政院的主張我們回到法理上面來講是不是現在透過行政命令的方式你其實就可以增加國定假日的天數其實是對不對"},{"start":11428.177,"end":11446.036,"text":"但是過去這段時間有增加不一定 你要有理由 要有意義啊你要紀念什麼 你要講清楚 你不能隨便一個...你講的是理由 對不對隨便一個拜拜 隨便一個初一十五就要放假啊我只是要釐清一個事實就是你在有這樣的權限的情況之下基於你的各種理由 反正就是沒有增加"},{"start":11446.836,"end":11461.836,"text":"我們的權限沒有委員所提到的那麼大我們的權限送到行政院去的時候要有很多不同的部會包括人事行政總部甚至包括權序部都要提供給我們意見我們才能把它放下去所以其實政府部門的彈性其實也沒有想像中那麼大"},{"start":11462.176,"end":11490.755,"text":"所以如果民間尤其是民意調查的數字已經顯示有超過六成的人非常希望增加國定價值的天數真正不贊成增加天數的人大概只有不到百分之二十那在這樣子的一個主流民意的驅動下行政機關還是寸步難行那我只好透過立法院修法的方式來處理報告委員民意調查的部分如果民意調查認為說七成以上的人希望我們的租金補助不要刪除但是我們在立法院裡面還是被刪跟動啦那我覺得也非常遺憾"},{"start":11491.155,"end":11518.013,"text":"部長第一個你的預算附議案沒有辦法過關的時候我是沒有辦法處理解凍案的第二個凍結跟刪除好像不太一樣你做過立法委員之後我們就不多講不要岔開話題齁部長你一直講說要凝聚共識對不對針對國定價值的天數也好或者是一些內容跟意涵也好請問從去年啦這個我們的公聽會到了現在內政部有沒有針對各個部會也好或行政院這個平台收集了哪些意見開過幾次會什麼層級參加有沒有初步的共識或方向聽起來是沒有有嗎"},{"start":11519.515,"end":11530.866,"text":"報告委員應該是這樣子就是院長在很多大小的會議裡面如果有人是行政總署或者是勞動部的時候都會提到這個問題但是我們在滾動式的調整當中會認為說現在這樣的時間還沒有成熟或是說現在這個時間還沒有共識你居然對外講的話並不是一個好的現象反而會置私欲焚所以我們寧可讓它再有段"},{"start":11542.757,"end":11568.849,"text":"在長一點的時間來做討論讓他有共識但是我剛有提到我們不希望變成是在野黨或者是執政黨之間的一個政黨的紛爭然後讓他可以好好的落幕部長不希望這個事情再變成政治吵架的一個題目但是我也要如實反映勞工的心聲勞工的心聲都不希望這件事情再只是不管是藍也好綠也好白也好政治人物在選舉時候的承諾但選後沒有任何作為"},{"start":11569.429,"end":11587.829,"text":"本期今天會去排審這樣的一個法案因為下一次會執行適用的期間是明年不是今年啦所以我們剛剛有提到適用的期間在法條上是可以規定的啊今年的人事行政總署在去年年底的時候已經對外宣告多少放假日還有補班日等等所以現在如果這個法律案通過的話"},{"start":11589.691,"end":11606.722,"text":"你看你行政命令的時候你想執行的事情你就執行的很愉快但是我們想要增加價值的時候你就裹住不下沒有 按照行政程序我們是按照行政程序法來執行所有的相關規定你要回答我的問題就是剛剛很多委員都講說我們要有社會共識請問你覺得到底什麼樣的程度叫做社會有共識"},{"start":11610.096,"end":11633.644,"text":"這個放假的這件事情不曉得委員所提的是哪一項沒有就放假比如說天數也好或是哪幾天要放假到底什麼樣的程度叫社會有共識全台灣所有2300萬人一次同意叫有共識還是說其實只要大部分人可以接受他就叫有共識大部分人能夠接受但是我要提一下但是大部分人能夠接受不是完全用這個民粹的想法所謂的民粹的想法我放假越多天越好"},{"start":11634.204,"end":11651.962,"text":"我今天講你講說怕變成流於民粹這個本席不反對但問題就是因為這樣所以我今天要問你一個標準我們也不希望為了特定團體也不希望為了特定團體然後講還我勞工七天假然後綁架勞工說五月一號要全國放假我們已經講過了五月一號本來全國勞工就放假"},{"start":11652.583,"end":11664.65,"text":"部長這對這一段時間一直每一次在街頭上大聲疾呼希望可以減少工時讓勞工休息的團體而言你這樣講話實在對他們實在非常傷心老師我剛剛有提到了不要為了特定團體來處理全國放假的事情所以你認為這個事情"},{"start":11669.793,"end":11673.595,"text":"我們願意跟他們溝通但是不是用這樣的方式放假多少天不要說勞動團體都這樣想應該是說全國的人認為放假的天數這樣可能不夠我們希望多放假幾天那放什麼節日或放什麼假日我們再來講所以我剛剛有特別提到這是一個層次的問題不要用假日、節日、紀念日然後說一定要放假因為這個差太遠"},{"start":11698.411,"end":11723.721,"text":"反正委員的版本的話 我們現在就要多放31天假部長 你不希望用 只是用勞工團體的聲音所以剛剛旭貞委員其實就已經提出了全國的民意調查嘛都還是有六成多人支持啦所以我不是說我們保持開放的態度啊我沒有說現在不可以放假啊但是今年已經來不及了今天大家用開放的態度討論其實慢慢慢慢有共識法條還會有後續的審議啦好 大家也會做版本的整合請你做好準備好 部長休息一下我請勞動部次長"},{"start":11730.017,"end":11759.157,"text":"請勞動部次長這個有人曾經說過七天假不應該跟週休二日這個議題掛鉤這兩者掛鉤在一起是政黨政治下的權力操作你認同這句話嗎我覺得我們的那個週休二日的問題實際上我剛剛前面已經講在修法2017年修法之後事實上週休二日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升了"},{"start":11760.186,"end":11786.98,"text":"所以你覺得這兩件事要不要掛鉤?週休二日跟七天假,這兩件事要不要掛鉤在一起?這話誰講的你知道嗎?誰說?這話是你的長官講的,今天沒有來所以派你代理啊這是我們洪山安部長講的他以前做立法委員的時候,幫勞工講話的時候他說七天假的議題不應該跟週休二日掛鉤啊你不應該因為為了推動週休二日就砍掉七天假嘛這其實就是勞工朋友,也是現在工時很長的勞工朋友們心中的痛嘛對不對?所以他當初有這樣子的一個初衷,我都很肯定他"},{"start":11787.64,"end":11816.014,"text":"所以過去我在勞動部在未完委員會質詢他的時候我也跟他討論過這個問題他說他願意有開放心態來面對至少今天次長你今天的心態也是用開放心態來面對我認為這都是往前走的一個方法所以我蠻贊成這個概念這不應該掛鉤但我要再問也有人講說從來就沒有所謂七天假要不要還的問題因為七天假是沒有落實週休二日的時候馬總統那個時候提出的所以落實的時候就要取消請問這是不是掛鉤這是不是把週休二日跟七天假兩件事掛在一起"},{"start":11817.054,"end":11831.465,"text":"這要看怎麼看啊我剛剛已經講了我們在修法以後其實週休日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升了所以到底這句話是不是代表要掛在一起看對不對他說沒有砍七天價的問題因為這個本來就是週休日的配套這是不是就是掛鉤"},{"start":11833.203,"end":11848.351,"text":"那這句話誰講的你知道嗎請說是你長官的長官叫卓榮泰院長講的好現在問題來我就請你所以我就委屈你一點啦但是現在我們的勞動部部長曾經主張這件事情不要掛鉤行政院長又把這件事情要掛鉤那請問到底是要掛鉤還是不要掛鉤"},{"start":11849.363,"end":11871.813,"text":"我們覺得還是要站在勞工的實際的工時狀況來考慮而且各行各業的營運模式還有工作狀況都不一樣要通盤檢討所以要站在實際的工時的狀況來考慮回到全民到底台灣的勞工有沒有過勞的狀況我們的上班族需不需要多一點喘息的時間是不是回到這個問題的核心來做處理很好這個其實就是我們排審的原因"},{"start":11872.093,"end":11892.365,"text":"我們認為就是要因為剛剛不管這個數字是OECD的也好或者是怎麼樣或者是來自人民的感受也好或者是來自民意調查的數據支持也好其實我要透過這場質詢強調的就是大部分台灣的民意是希望增加國定假日的天數的對不對國定假日的強度一定高過於特休啦我本來想要問你你支持週休三日"},{"start":11893.499,"end":11921.962,"text":"有些歐洲國家在實驗中其實每次有這個話題的時候台灣的勞工有些都蠻高興的為什麼因為累嘛希望多一點時間休息所以週休三日出來的時候大家說我們會不會試用政府說沒有辦法試用對不對因為畢竟是一個很大膽的嘗試對不對很多人就講說那你真的要特休啊可是就很多人跳出來講我特休年資的問題我有看得到吃不到的這樣一個問題所以說為什麼我們如果要讓勞工立刻的可以享受到工時減少多一點喘息的時間我們要從國定價值下手嘛"},{"start":11923.023,"end":11950.163,"text":"市長你應該不會反對這樣的看法我剛剛已經有回答過就是讓勞工的工時適度的縮減讓勞工休息增加國定假日之外其實還有就是他的加班工時如何適度的減少那這個就我們的調查有一些特定行業像製造業 運輸倉儲業他的加班工時是在各行業裡面比較長的那這跟他的營運模式有很大關係那這個部分我們也透過各種方式希望能夠把它削減一點"},{"start":11950.914,"end":11971.759,"text":"這本席在這邊表達一下我們的立場就是說各種方式只要能夠讓台灣的勞工不要再過勞我們都會支持然後你也可以互相搭配沒有問題但我們希望政府有態度如果政府沒有態度那只好立法院先走其實不外乎就是如此而已好不好希望次長也好部長也好好好準備謝謝好謝謝謝謝牛徐廷召委謝謝李政次接下來我們請吳啟明委員"},{"start":11983.547,"end":11986.657,"text":"好 主席我們與會同仁請我們內政部部長請內政部的部長"},{"start":11995.582,"end":12021.795,"text":"部長針對我們紀念日與節日的實施條例的草案那本期早上有看到26位的委員提出都是大家都不同的版本那總共的紀念日就有31種那有大家都有不同的放假的理由實際上在這31種我們要實施的話還是要很全面性的考量"},{"start":12022.515,"end":12046.452,"text":"那本席也知道在去年也辦了公聽會但是公聽會的結果也沒有共識那未來我們要怎樣實施因為已經制定的國定假日這是關係到未來整個產業鏈以及我們所有的經公教人員大家的休息的時間那本席也知道"},{"start":12047.293,"end":12066.096,"text":"最重要就是5月1號的勞動節勞動節全國的勞工都有休息但是本席在這邊每年我都會去參加那個勞工節的表揚活動那勞工他們雖然休息了但是有的家庭他是他不管是"},{"start":12067.157,"end":12089.554,"text":"先生是公教人員還是都是不同調那要討論是因為那個勞動節是不是我們是一致性來做討論我認為這應該會比較確實一點那其實現在勞工他們面臨到的問題不是多少的家因為我們現在台灣是週休二日嘛"},{"start":12090.094,"end":12112.014,"text":"那週休二日你還要一些國定假日那算起來勞工在意的是他們的薪水如何提高他的薪水提高他的家庭他才有活動去顧啊因為大家都有經濟壓力我們是要怎樣來讓他的薪水提高這樣才對他們更有保障這個保溫是不是說保證"},{"start":12113.815,"end":12116.9,"text":"我們的勞動節這個部分要如何實施讓他們能夠符合因為畢竟他們會造成勞工休息但是他們的配額"},{"start":12130.104,"end":12137.067,"text":"會不會休息因為小朋友會在託租又不同調你說你既然要實施就先對這個我們的勞工這個保溫勞動者我們來做研究是不是請保證你會看法"},{"start":12146.192,"end":12150.154,"text":"謝謝吳委員對這裡的照顧吳委員回想照顧六港在內政部的實施辦法裡面的第五條有說到現在有節日按照規定放假的兒童節然後勞動節跟軍人節"},{"start":12165.384,"end":12181.947,"text":"那兒童節當然兒童放假但是當天或者是第二天剛好也都是掃墓的部分所以兩個放在一起可能大家會覺得剛好有一個放假日不管是民俗節日或者是兒童放假因為兒童都是全世界都知道這是未來國家的主人"},{"start":12182.407,"end":12205.624,"text":"那一天如果沒有放假大概也會犯重怒但是勞動節的話在我們規範是因為由勞動部會希望是勞動部的規定是勞工放假軍人節的話是按照國防部的規定來放假但是大家都知道軍人節放假那一天全國軍人要放假台灣的國家安全就出狀況變得有留守的軍人"},{"start":12206.465,"end":12234.539,"text":"不能夠在軍人節放假那既然有留守的軍人不能夠在軍人放假的話他們可能就要補休或是有休假或是其他的方式來做修訂那但是在勞動節的部分呢我們討論的是勞工放假之後勞工有沒有其他的一個補救措施但是現在呢外面所講的所謂的勞動團體在講所謂還我七天假把勞動節拿出來是說勞動節那一天勞工放假但是非勞工沒有放假"},{"start":12235.499,"end":12259.342,"text":"這個是一個很奇怪的論點所以我們才說我們應該跳脫第一個我們已經講過應該跳脫紀念日跟節日的實施辦法大家一起來討論就是全國的人總共放假日是115天或126天這樣子到底適不適合那如果不適合的狀況之下我們怎麼樣增加這個放假的部分而不要只"},{"start":12260.763,"end":12277.711,"text":"把這個所謂的勞動節或者是教師節拿出來因為本來勞工在勞動節那天就放假了那我們怎麼對人家講說勞動節那一天非勞工也要跟著一起放假那這是另外一個議題的思考"},{"start":12278.271,"end":12304.13,"text":"而不是拿這個議題來說因為環國七天假所以勞動節那天要放假勞動節本來勞工就放假所以這個不是我們在特別針對外面的想法那當然在行政部門內部我們看到就是說如果勞動節那邊全國放假的話是全國的軍公教跟著一起放假那天全國都放假的狀況之下有人會拿"},{"start":12304.83,"end":12323.301,"text":"要領加班費有人要過來上班但是我們知道公務人員大概多少天的假就跟著多少天放假那個大概沒有意義但是會影響到比較多的就是我們所說的我們放假的天數那麼多我們用過年農曆春節期間過年的時候誰最辛苦"},{"start":12326.443,"end":12351.006,"text":"交通運輸業的人或者是觀光旅宿業的人這種都是小型的的這些人呢或者是我們看到統一超商裡面第一線在做服務的同仁這麼這些第一個他們有沒有按照勞基法裡面領到應該有的加班費或是應該有的特休的部分這一塊才是真正照顧到勞工權益的部分也就是說不要把"},{"start":12352.587,"end":12361.116,"text":"所謂的假日或是節日放假這個事情把要還給什麼勞工有七天假或者是有些特殊身份的人要放假全部把它"},{"start":12363.726,"end":12385.095,"text":"這樣子反而無法處理事情那行政部門本來就是按照我們的行政程序一步一步非常清楚的框架下來以後我們就可以去按照這樣子的辦法也好或是法律案來一起討論那在這次的修法當中我們特別提到以目前來講第一個明年我們才會碰到明年的要不要放假的狀況所以還有時間我們可以拟據共識那院長在"},{"start":12388.897,"end":12411.223,"text":"立法院回答很多立委的時候也提到我們是保持開放的態度但是要能夠凝聚目標或是凝聚方向有區域一致的目標跟方向的話那行政立法部門或是我們跟很多的勞動團體或是跟很多其他的相關的職業團體呢就有比較好的溝通空間希望能夠很平和的來解決這個問題好的"},{"start":12413.578,"end":12417.379,"text":"謝謝部長因為說可以收貼出來26個有31種版本其實這都大家我們都尊重我們都很尊重我們各委員提出的但是你對勞工我們要怎麼來照顧勞工這個部分因為大家勞工他們受到的經濟壓力都大嘛"},{"start":12435.006,"end":12436.488,"text":"要如何提高他的薪資,他該有的享有的休假,我們都要朝這方向來努力,讓勞工,因為勞工是最辛苦的,勞工的經濟壓力也最重的"},{"start":12452.464,"end":12458.407,"text":"所以在這個部分我們都是站在勞工上最新我們這陣子也是站在勞工的這個部分來看待這個事情未來我希望說可以來開公聽會找相關的單位包含我們的勞工代表還是說我們的僱主大家都共同來檢討不要說這樣一個飛機一次就要再來修改一遍那這也不是好事啦在這裡再次感謝謝謝"},{"start":12482.773,"end":12495.011,"text":"好謝謝好謝謝吳清明委員下一位我們請丁薛忠委員質詢感謝主席請讓我們留副長部長有請"},{"start":12500.68,"end":12504.942,"text":"我們今天都討論到今天條例的草案就是要讓我們國定假日可以統一規定不要有一國多制的問題我們內政局是主要要求的主觀單位你的意見是什麼呢是 感謝丁議員的關心對於丁議員所講的部分包括很多26個委員提出31件"},{"start":12528.596,"end":12533.737,"text":"跟不一樣的風格之下我們認為是不是要有共識再來推測這第一項第二項就是說是不是我們在推測共識的時候可以跟很多不一樣的團體包括勞動團體、教書團體甚至中小企業的代表跟學者專家把他們的想法想出來之後因為看起來世界上最沒有最完美的版本百分之百的人都同意"},{"start":12556.241,"end":12567.786,"text":"但是呢 能夠代表他們這裡的人的聲音 我們能夠把他們找來 把他們問一問你能夠接受的上限是什麼 下限是什麼這樣才能夠選舉共識不然每一個人都覺得自己的最重要這樣就是變成 如果我們大家都重要 都加進去之後未來啊 我們的婚嫁日會變成超過31天啦超過31天喔 我相信各行各業 百家百業 絕對會受到很大的衝擊和影響"},{"start":12584.394,"end":12588.236,"text":"我們的勞工金融是比較辛苦,我們當全世界的管理員,勞工的洗手超過兩成,在世界的管理員超過一成"},{"start":12601.021,"end":12602.603,"text":"很多我們的社會都可以說已經過勞了我們說到更新世界世界主要的經濟國家更加落後了還有一項就是我們希望說"},{"start":12618.084,"end":12619.925,"text":"大人的時間,未來一定可以做到,不要說教師節,我們剛才說教師節,教師節,他如果尷尬,大人沒有尷尬,剛才孩子要拜託人家,那如果下班,勞動節,"},{"start":12635.616,"end":12637.759,"text":"四大人關閘,孩子要繼續討債,四大人也是在家的,他們沒辦法跟孩子一起處理妥協,還是有什麼互動的關係。這個過分可能要請內政部有一個理定方式。"},{"start":12651.235,"end":12655,"text":"我相信很多朋友也站在告示節是不是要放假的日程提出跟委員要求但是告示節有告示節的時刻我剛才有說過 如果告示節放假之後其實現在最大的影響是影響在偏鄉地區的孩子的收購款"},{"start":12668.117,"end":12686.681,"text":"偏鄉地區的學童的受教權會受到影響然後再加上目前以台灣的教育學制來講我們本來就有寒暑假所以委員所提到的問題就是說寒假期間小孩子放假的時候家長怎麼樣處理小孩子放假時候他們的教養教育的問題那跟"},{"start":12689.182,"end":12706.903,"text":"只有單一提出9月28那一天因為老師放假所以小孩子在家沒有人看顧其實會有不同的看法因為人數或天數真的很多譬如說我們的暑假可能有一兩個月那我們總不能一兩個月教師都放假然後全國就跟著一起放假我想這樣子太極端的想法"},{"start":12709.005,"end":12736.969,"text":"所以我剛剛有提到這裡面要解決就是教師的權益的問題或是勞工權益的問題的話目的失業主管機關的教育部或者是這個勞動部他們要提出一個有效的辦法來抑止譬如說工時過長然後勞動條件過苛或者是教師時數過長的問題而不是全部把它放到要不要放假變成國定假日然後全國一起放假然後就一次解決所有的問題這樣子也未免太草率"},{"start":12737.469,"end":12745.374,"text":"對 感謝我們國中的用心剛才你說 都總共有三十一種冠軍三十一個冠軍 三十一的冠軍二十六個委員提案 每天都要報告 都總共三十一天三十一天 這樣要整合也很辛苦整合 如果林法醫可以整合 才能完全配合我們是希望說"},{"start":12765.247,"end":12769.511,"text":"當然我們隔天不能有無限的日數但是我們政府在一日一宵的修法的時候它那七天到晚有提掉的這是事實但是委員 我覺得這樣剛好一半對一半不對"},{"start":12783.102,"end":12799.596,"text":"雖然在一例一休只能所謂七天假拿掉但是未來我們週休二日的部分現在全台灣各地的放假全台灣加上週休二日已經是一百一十五天或者是一百一十六天跟原來不到一百天是差很多的是所以現在剛才說的還他七天假還他七天假這個理由是什麼"},{"start":12811.772,"end":12817.859,"text":"不好意思 還他七天假是不是可以請盧董博來跟議員解說因為這不是來敬博主觀的 我還有一些問題"},{"start":12835.234,"end":12839.201,"text":"市長感謝你 現在我們旁邊的旅行朋友都有在說希望可以還他7點價 這個原因是什麼"},{"start":12846.172,"end":12867.228,"text":"那就是一百五千二十二個月前那些人修改希望可以比這個週休二日週休二日那些人之前那些委員就討論說那週休日要放假天數的增加所以就希望說可以來修改這個勞動勞基法裡面的事業細則跟本甲勞工有19天兼7天比這個12天"},{"start":12875.394,"end":12903.089,"text":"但是當時在修改的時候也同時把一些特效價來增加譬如說本價下跌是一年年資以下半年年資的本價是沒有特效的但是修改以後配合半年年資的有三天的特效一年以上到兩年特效價也增加兩年以上也能增加所以特效價也有適度增加"},{"start":12903.974,"end":12909.401,"text":"聽說勞工節,我們這裡勞工平均都是較高階級才有辦法關卡,較低階級也有辦法關卡全台灣勞工,有益勞動者都太棒架有益勞動者勞工都有棒希望說"},{"start":12921.995,"end":12949.152,"text":"我們這邊跟我們來賓國家可以將對我們這個勞工朋友觀感的這個過分可以好好去討論讓我們勞工朋友有一個好的一個管理是感謝 感謝我們市長 感謝主席謝謝好 謝謝丁薛忠委員我們今天開會中午就不休息我們把質詢把它走完但我們待會在這個徐信委員質詢完之後我們休息五分鐘讓大家上上廁所好 先來請徐信委員質詢"},{"start":12960.577,"end":12963.82,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席有請劉部長劉部長有請徐委員好那個勞動部的次長李次長有請一起 謝謝"},{"start":12984.771,"end":13007.167,"text":"請教部長還有次長去年也就上個會期我們有辦紀念日及假日的公聽會我不知道那天都是次長來還是部長您有在嗎?我沒有在您沒有在?我們內政部是一位次長來代表是吳長次嗎?不是那勞動部那一天是誰?"},{"start":13010.001,"end":13036.261,"text":"那是我們勞工部長賜是長賜 好 OK那沒關係這個但是機關代表都有到嘛這個我們今天討論這個紀念日跟假日當然前面很多委員很多相關議題都討論了那本席想要請教部長還有次長的就是說我們都看到台灣的總工時當然剛剛針對什麼勞工還我七天假這個假設我們先撇開不講"},{"start":13037.389,"end":13062.515,"text":"整個台灣的總工時跟OECD國家的總工時差距了多少這個就去年2023已經變前年了去年還沒有出來這是勞動部還有OECD官網的數字你們知道差距多少嗎 部長你知道嗎部長不知道 那次長你知道嗎"},{"start":13064.69,"end":13083.706,"text":"我也是說那個就是我們平均一年的總工時台灣在2023年供OECD國家的總工時差距多少是你直接回答我時間不多你知道嗎不知道OECD各國的連總工時也不一樣平均總工時"},{"start":13086.414,"end":13092.522,"text":"好 沒關係那我來講OECD國家它一年就是1742個小時這是平均對那台灣是202020202020所以這樣差起來是278個小時"},{"start":13101.574,"end":13110.961,"text":"所以站在這樣的一個立場但是呢OECD平均它人均所得在2023年是46724美元那我們台灣是32442美元所以我想請教劉部長跟我們這個"},{"start":13122.047,"end":13146.464,"text":"李次長那你們是不是認同就是說其實即便勞工應該說我們勞動人口我們如果台灣價多其實對整個的GDP或是影響是不是一個有直接性的就是說不會放假多我們的GDP就弱吧這點你們認同吧"},{"start":13148.921,"end":13172.546,"text":"我們認為各行業的狀況確實不一樣對對對我沒有再跟你進入細節因為各行業有差別嘛那OECD國家他難道沒有各行業嗎也有嘛那我剛剛也聽到就是說部長也回那個劉部長也回答很多委員就是說好那有一些大企業歸大企業但中小企業要照顧我們都認同那但是"},{"start":13173.931,"end":13193.202,"text":"世界各國還有很多先進國家他也都有很多中小企業啊所以我想這個應該不是主要的原因應該是在於剛剛部長你也有講現在要整合嘛對不對我們要整合現在大家有這樣的一個共識包含民調也"},{"start":13194.382,"end":13220.812,"text":"這個有60幾%將近七成的民眾都希望我們應該可以當然剛剛部長講說這個有很多版本加起來有二三十天的假其實我相信大家一定不是希望這樣而是說在現有的基礎上我們是不是可以增加嘛我們可以增加一天兩天三天所以這個部分部長你認同吧雖然你們還在凝聚共識吧"},{"start":13222.571,"end":13238.713,"text":"那個委員你提的版本是五天不是啦不是啦我是說那五天都是大家期望我們民意代表嘛我不是說要放五天我們可以漸進式嘛你看先放一天兩天也可以啊"},{"start":13239.233,"end":13263.604,"text":"我想委員的想法非常的好你都還記得每個委員提幾天你們有做表格因為這樣子所以如果說我們的立法院的各個提案的版本能夠針對剛剛委員所提到的不堅持自己要提案的多少天數為主慢慢就會有共識出來但是目前我所聽到的很多人都很堅持自己的部分我想說"},{"start":13266.365,"end":13292.085,"text":"也就是我刚所说的如果说立法院跟行政系统这边有一定共识的话那我们就很快可以去拟定出来未来的方向那我们会按照这样子的方向来去对很好所以我们其实应该就说大家朝向说我们现在的工时比OECD国家这个平均真的多太多了所以我们其实可以"},{"start":13292.845,"end":13322.025,"text":"朝向譬如說多放一天兩天我們先這樣逐步來推進所以本席馬上看到的就是說民調最高的就是勞動節那勞動節現在勞工已經放假只剩下軍公教那剛剛劉部長也說這個目的事業主管機關其實現在就這個執政黨就是我們民進黨所以從行政院到人事行政總署到內政部到勞動部其實你們可以盡快有共識"},{"start":13323.205,"end":13351.132,"text":"五一而且现在就是只剩军工架你要不要给他放那这个应该可以尽快的来拟定共识那再来就是我们现在针对这个我不知道我拿到的数据也许有很多人做但都差不多至少前四名好像大家都差不多那我这边第二名是行限纪念日第三名是教师节再来第四名台湾光复节所以在这样的情况下"},{"start":13352.012,"end":13380.309,"text":"是不是我们也可以朝向这个比如像教师节我们对老师的这个理解跟尊重还有尊师重道那当然很多人会讲其实每个节日大家都有一个理由嘛那但是呢其实现在的社会其实老师真的是很辛苦这个时代的变化再加上我们也发现其实教育对台湾来说真的非常非常重要那教育工作者"},{"start":13380.769,"end":13402.217,"text":"我們怎麼樣來對他的尊重所以是不是可以考慮教師節至於行獻紀念日跟光復節這就是對我們歷史的意義還有歷史的尊重這個部分所以本席希望我們勞動部還有內政部這邊是不是像剛剛部長也有講"},{"start":13403.157,"end":13430.986,"text":"我們不要說哦對啊這個大家都堅持但是我們可以就最有共識的還有民調這個其實勞動部跟內政部都可以這個去做一下民調你們自己做的也許你更相信然後你看看民眾的這個需求那再來就是其實我們剛剛一開始提出來的那我們要跟世界先進國家我們要一起努力嘛所以民眾台灣"},{"start":13432.787,"end":13459.208,"text":"這個經濟奇蹟就是我們所有民眾還有甚至我們勞工朋友大家共同努力的但是更好的生活品質更多的休閒我相信會讓他們在工作上願意付出更多所以從這個角度出發所以我們希望內政部勞動部這裡跟我們行政院這裡可以朝向這個方向來給我們這個紀念日跟假日呢我們逐步的來推進一天兩天三天"},{"start":13460.73,"end":13484.972,"text":"希望我們今年可以有一個共識那明年呢大家可以歡喜的放假那我們更希望我們因為有了很好的假期休閒那我們的整個的產值我們整個的GDP可以更高好不好可以嗎部長今年可以努力吧現在已經在努力了報告委員我們現在努力可是您剛講的一天兩天三天可以討論可是你剛講就四天了啊"},{"start":13485.572,"end":13510.874,"text":"不是啦 那我四天我沒有堅持我一定四天我都很努力在聽你講的部分對 我說四天是說民調有這四天嘛那但是你看一天兩天 你們就開始有一些作為出來民眾就會感受到 對 你有重視到我們台灣的工時過長我們開始逐步的減少推進 增加大家的放假休閒嘛部長可以嗎 可以吧"},{"start":13512.505,"end":13540.121,"text":"剛剛有提到我們盡量趕快有共識出來那不好意思最後我再佔用一分鐘的時間請次長回座部長我們現在有一個問題在102年的時候那時候第八屆本席當第八屆立委的時候那時候陳其邁委員他提案刪除了當時中央行政單位從行政院到各部會首長副首長的特別費"},{"start":13541.041,"end":13563.623,"text":"三減 他提案三一半 最後立法院決議是三二十五趴這樣一三就是十幾年那在隔年一百零三年的時候那個主計總署他就發了一個公文就要求地方行政單位行政機關的首長副首長要比照那這個"},{"start":13564.964,"end":13586.191,"text":"我們會覺得不合理因為中央行政單位的經費是立法院在監督制衡但實際上縣市政府或者是鄉鎮市公所他們是有代表會跟縣市議會在監督所以用一個什麼共同性費用編列基準"},{"start":13587.011,"end":13605.88,"text":"好像不是那麼恰當所以這樣一山就十一年現在地方鄉鎮市長有這個聲音是不是就是可以恢復鄉鎮市長的可以恢復但我知道這個足跡總署還有內政部所以這一塊是不是可以請部長"},{"start":13607.24,"end":13629.067,"text":"因為我們已經有問過主席總書 主席總書希望內政部可以主動提出來所以本席不好意思 用一點點時間 部長您認為呢就是說我們鄉鎮市長他的特別費 你給代表會他去決議就好你沒有必要說我現在立法院三中央部會的你就拉地方首長來 你一起跟我一樣"},{"start":13630.527,"end":13639.374,"text":"這一塊您的看法我對當時的提案不是那麼了解但是行政院大概人事行政總署跟主計總署那時候國民黨執政嘛國民黨官方執政陳其邁委員就刪嘛一般共同性的這個包括這個預算的處理原則那地方製度法裡面當然是內政部由負責來督導"},{"start":13650.362,"end":13657.325,"text":"那是不是讓我們有一點時間來瞭解一下這個狀況因為目前一個月內可以回覆我先來瞭解一下那個狀況因為目前我們114年很多特資費也都被刪掉了我現在講的是公則嘛我在為地方講話啦我知道"},{"start":13669.19,"end":13694.536,"text":"所以我現在先按照行政院的主計總處跟我們人總裡面的共通性的刪減原則特別針對地方不要把地方拉上來現在中央歸中央是不是有漢格的地方我來瞭解一下然後我會盡快跟委員來做回覆好 謝謝好 謝謝徐欽委員我們休息五分鐘大家上個廁所對 我剛剛有宣告"},{"start":13922.076,"end":13922.548,"text":"i know"},{"start":14072.449,"end":14088.5,"text":"報告委員會我們繼續開會接下來我們請洪孟楷委員質詢主席謝謝好主席謝謝麻煩請劉世芳部長跟我們勞動部次長劉部長理事長有請"},{"start":14093.077,"end":14113.516,"text":"本席今天早上提案說明其實也開宗明義講得非常清楚我相信您一定都有聽到我想在針對今天召委所排定的這個不管是國定假日相關的一個修法其實我們要的是兩個部分第一法制化我們的一個修法第二我們也希望是能夠來符合國情以及符合照顧"},{"start":14114.256,"end":14133.395,"text":"全體同仁的一個權益來努力那您剛也提到很多的委員的這個答詢裡面就行政部門跟立法部門這邊要取得共識嘛 對不對是的好 共識非常重要所以我相信共識絕對不是說是鐵板一塊或是說絕對不是說著是而今非這一點你認同吧"},{"start":14135.929,"end":14158.362,"text":"當然啊認同嗎好來我先請教剛剛有提到是說勞動部這邊有揭露的這個全國際工時比較裡面OECD的這個比較勞動部次長您有提到你們這邊有列出來是說全國主要國家裡面我們台灣的人均工時是第五高亞洲主要國家第二高僅次於新加坡對吧是"},{"start":14159.13,"end":14188.164,"text":"所以說對於我們這邊來講的話給予勞工正向的一個支持並且來減輕勞工的一個工時條件這是不是應該是我們勞動部努力的方向是 我們勞動部一貫是希望這樣好 那請教一下勞動部今天我們針對我們的這個提案裡面勞動部你們的立場是什麼針對個別委員的一個版本裡面你們針對於不管是恢復勞工七天假或者是說現在勞工一年國定假日幾天"},{"start":14189.941,"end":14200.209,"text":"國定假日剛那個劉部長上午有講你不會勞動部如果是勞工的話12天是12天勞工的話11天對勞動部不要說還有勞工的國定假日還要問內政部好不好"},{"start":14201.837,"end":14227.972,"text":"要加一天好來那請教一下你們今天的一個報告裡面針對勞工剛剛已經開宗明義講了OECD裡面的國家裡面我們全台灣是平均人均工時第二高亞洲國家第二高那我們勞動部對於委員提案要幫勞工多爭取一些國定假日的立場你們今天的報告是什麼你們立場是什麼我們認為要通盤檢討各行業的工時狀況營運模式好"},{"start":14231.55,"end":14249.772,"text":"那減少加班工時我們認為是更重要的途徑那至於國定價的調整這個要通盤檢討通盤檢討這個今天部長沒有來但是在這個報告出來之前有沒有跟部長討論過當然有當然有嘛那你知道部長之前的態度跟立場是什麼嗎"},{"start":14251.018,"end":14266.98,"text":"部長在委員的時代可能因為那時候我是去年底才到廣東部服務的去年這不重要啊但是你說你今天報告來的時候你有跟部長討論過啊那部長的立場跟態度是什麼"},{"start":14268.062,"end":14285.639,"text":"總是他不會著是驚飛吧不會不會以前他當紅委員的時候他覺得是說要增加價結果現在當紅部長的時候他就覺得說不應該鐵板一塊早上我在一開始部會報告的時候我就有提我們中央部的立場就各行業的不是啊我在問的是部長的立場是什麼知不知道"},{"start":14286.34,"end":14311.894,"text":"你已經 你剛先講 你有討論過早上我們報告的內 我報告的內容就代表勞工部也代表那個洪部長他都已經看過了是 對那但是部長之前的立場 來我們看一下來 下一張來洪森漢委員在第十屆委員的時候他共同提案希望能夠增加勞工三天的國定假日啊他要增加哪三天 知道嗎"},{"start":14312.947,"end":14337.18,"text":"不知道嘛因為你剛剛講的是說勞動部的立場是跟紅部長討論過結果紅部長給出的這個勞動部的報告裡面是鐵板一塊不增加沒有增加任何一天其實本席本席早上開宗明義我早上就已經報告過了我們剛剛不認為這個是有討論空間的是嘛有討論空間嘛但是重點是為什麼之前的紅委員他提出來是說要增加三天假嘛"},{"start":14338.907,"end":14358.803,"text":"這沒有矛盾啊這哪裡沒有矛盾因為我們早上已經講我們不認為有討論空間市長說實在話有討論空間跟說要不要增加本席也支持啊本席也支持是說我們要減輕加班時數我們要增加勞工權益我們要增加不管是這個相關的薪資這不衝突嗎是這不衝突吧當然"},{"start":14361.085,"end":14384.227,"text":"對啊 好 當然你既然回答當然本席就事論事我很心平氣和 理直氣順跟你討論的是說我們不需要看到雙重標準本席今天早上提案說明也講了很多委員有版本但是到最後我們可以互相溝通討論但是如果說你不本於科學立場以及數據的話那我覺得說這樣子就變成是說行政部門只是在硬拗來 看一下"},{"start":14385.795,"end":14403.597,"text":"紅委員當時有提案一個版本連署三個版本其中他自己的提案裡面從原本勞工的國定假日12天要增加三天變成15天而其中增加的就是全國客家日、原住民族日跟國際移民日三天"},{"start":14404.96,"end":14425.752,"text":"他也有連署連署最多的版本是要增加6天到從12天變成18天增加的有包括全國客家日、原住民族日、國際移民日消防節、警察節跟軍人節等6天所以換言之過去洪森翰委員部長在擔任委員的時候他認為說應該調整那個時候民進黨獨大"},{"start":14431.408,"end":14447.12,"text":"國會過半了民進黨如果說想推的話早就推過了 碾壓沒有推但至少這是歷史的紀錄留下來代表說他那個時候說認為可以幫勞工爭取一些應有的權益"},{"start":14448.411,"end":14471.298,"text":"結果到現在當了部長之後今天拿出來的報告勞動部的報告請大家齊文共賞一下去看一下勞動部的報告是先開中名義講各行各業不同那如果說各行各業不同業務沒有辦法多段的話那請到現在放假怎麼辦那結果鐵板一塊到最後沒有要增加任何一天"},{"start":14473.576,"end":14487.084,"text":"黃委員早上我已經多次口頭報告市長你多次口頭報告但是又沒有回答到本席現在的問題嘛所以你早上的報告不管你講一百遍你的答案沒有辦法跟本席的問題連結在一起你就是一個無效的溝通啊來 部長是學姊啦學姊所以"},{"start":14491.087,"end":14513.652,"text":"不苛責但是部長我覺得說剛剛因為你跟劉雪婷召委也有針對說五一勞動節的部分其實我覺得我們最有共識各委員版本以及過去民進黨委員也提出的版本裡面針對五一勞動節是希望是全國一致性的放假那也會讓整個社會比較平穩的能夠推動運行順暢"},{"start":14516.325,"end":14544.221,"text":"那部長現在我們有很多委員提出的版本是說是不是五一勞動節能夠一致全國一致適用放假您怎麼看我剛已經回答過了就是說第一個他要分不同的層次五一勞動節本來勞動者就放假那你變成是全國的軍公教要不要一起放假的話呢這個必須要讓行政院跟行政人士總署還有勞動部因為討論滿久了全國一致性你怎麼看但是如果今天就定案的話就表示我們都沒有共識"},{"start":14544.821,"end":14555.605,"text":"因為沒有人會認為只有五一勞動節是全國放假很多人就是剛剛所說的大家都舉出OECD大家都舉出工時過長所以勞動部他現在解決是相當多是勞動工時的問題但是五一勞動節對於勞動部來講他已經解決了勞動節有沒有放假的問題所以我說如果今天就定案的話是表示沒有共識不是"},{"start":14574.738,"end":14595.417,"text":"部長您沒有聽清楚本席的問題我再問一次我講的是說勞工現在已經12天有包含五一勞動節放假但是軍公教以及其他的人員沒有放五一勞動節但是很多人會覺得說五一勞動節其實因為全國沒有一致放假而造成說可能各行各業有不同的一些困擾"},{"start":14596.198,"end":14624.362,"text":"那很多從第九屆第十屆到現在第十一屆都有討論是說是不是要全國一致性我想過去有一些民進黨的委員或者是官員也都對於這件事情其實是正向看待那我們現在只是討論說就全國一致性您認為有沒有這個空間我們也是正向看待但是過去五屆的立法委員都沒有做成共識是表示有很多議題還沒有討論到定案您自己的想法呢我們保持開放的態度可以來討論您自己的想法呢"},{"start":14624.662,"end":14635.637,"text":"各位委員所提出來的從一天到九天都有我們沒有提出我們自己我們沒有提出行政院的版本我只是講五一勞動節全國一致您自己的想法怎麼看"},{"start":14636.38,"end":14662.762,"text":"我們支持現在的五一勞動節是勞工放假因為這個是勞動部他們自己根據他們自己在我們的假日實施辦法裡面所提出來的那全國一致的部分全國一致就是全國軍公教要不要放假不是內政部來做決定我剛提到了要有人事行政總書跟勞動部跟相關的部會讓行政院來做決定部長這樣講完來看一下部長在第九屆的時候他連署的提案"},{"start":14664.188,"end":14688.479,"text":"劉士芳委員當時還在立法院的時候認為要全國國定假日一致因為這是蔡英文總統的決策協調會議裡面的才是而劉士芳委員就有連署她認為應該要全體一體適用包括五一勞動節但現在剛剛部長的回答很顯然跟第九屆劉士芳委員的想法不一致謝謝"},{"start":14689.039,"end":14700.052,"text":"那時候的提案是可討論,但是因為沒有過,所以藉其不續審可討論,但是你的立場是這樣嗎?藉其不續審你的立場是這樣嗎?是的好,謝謝好,謝謝洪孟楷委員下一位我們請黃國昌委員質詢"},{"start":14717.673,"end":14745.262,"text":"謝謝主席,事事麻煩有請我們原民會的主委曾主委有請也請內政部的部長,劉部長有請主委好,部長好,先請教主委之前原民會辦一個原住民族人口基礎資料庫規劃還有建制研究這個研究執行到什麼時候?"},{"start":14748.558,"end":14751.899,"text":"112年你們在112年的時候執行到112年那113年的預算為什麼還有這個建制研究因為這個還要做一些收尾的工作所以有收尾嗎?有執行嗎?"},{"start":14777.662,"end":14791.945,"text":"後來就是有弄到我們的智慧治理的這個部分來做什麼來你先針對問題回答我們在編預算的原則你有計畫所以要有經費我現在的問題是這個計畫早就終止了為什麼這個計畫終止後面還有編預算剛剛你說到112年來我們來看一下"},{"start":14806.087,"end":14823.871,"text":"112年就沒有再執行這是白紙黑字審計部的調查報告出來現在我非常的困惑我們的園民會預算到底是怎麼編的從112年就沒這個計畫這個計畫到111年就結束了我們再回去看一下"},{"start":14831.226,"end":14843.749,"text":"你們園民會的預算書啊112年113年每一年都還有這個計畫執行每一年都在編經費那現在出現的問題是什麼現在出現的問題是你們在虛編預算執行幽靈計畫嗎"},{"start":14851.425,"end":14853.249,"text":"這個計畫111年就終止了為什麼112年113年的預算數還出現這個計畫主委可不可以說明一下"},{"start":14864.765,"end":14880.274,"text":"這怎麼回事啊我們還有一些維運的計畫 仔細再做不是嘛 我已經白紙黑字亮出來了你還要在這邊強辯還要在這邊撒謊這審計不下去 審計的結果啊111年計畫就結束了112年開始 沒有再辦理該計畫"},{"start":14889.939,"end":14905.651,"text":"結果112年的預算書113年的預算書繼續編根本就不存在的計畫聯名會預算書可以這樣編嗎用幽靈的計畫來騙預算這樣對嗎來請教主委我們還有一些違印的計畫所以才有這樣子編違印的計畫主委我已經白紙黑字亮出來給你看了"},{"start":14921.414,"end":14943.228,"text":"你還繼續在台上鬼扯啊這是審計部交來的審計報告啊我現在的問題很簡單啊這兩年邊在這個計畫向下的錢花到什麼地方去邊在這個計畫向下的錢花到什麼地方去這是我的問題"},{"start":14945.478,"end":14966.023,"text":"趴到哪裡去因為確實啦確實過去的編列不太妥當但是就是說我們有一些這個先兩個部分嘛第一個你剛剛承認一件事情我肯定你啊過去的編列不太妥當啊這個不是用不太妥當四個字就可以形容啊這根本在胡搞瞎搞啊計畫已經終結了結果用幽營計畫來騙預算"},{"start":14971.047,"end":14991.114,"text":"這個審計部的報告寫得很清楚啊現在我的第二個問題是錢花到哪裡去啊錢花到哪裡去牽涉到兩個年度你編在這個計畫向下面 原民會把錢花到什麼地方去嗎針對這件事情一個禮拜之內給我書面回覆好嗎好可以嗎可以"},{"start":14992.25,"end":15017.105,"text":"那第三個事情跟這個有關係的事情是,審計部的報告上面也說,園民會這樣亂搞不對那我現在的問題來了,那接下來園民會這件事情打算要怎麼辦?就算了,反正錢都花了,錢要追回來嗎?不是,我們現在跟審計部,我們也在做一個檢討,也有跟...需要檢討多久?"},{"start":15018.496,"end":15036.229,"text":"這沒有什麼好檢討的啦,我老實跟你講啦這個就是一個幽靈計畫嘛那錢花到哪裡去了?一個禮拜回覆我我現在接下來的問題是要花掉這些錢,接下來現在要怎麼辦?要追回來嗎?還是錢花了就花了,這是我的問題"},{"start":15038.649,"end":15064.377,"text":"因為我們現在跟審計部也有在跟他們做說明假設就是審計部怎麼樣來指示或者是怎麼樣來要我們檢討我們會依照他的意思來做檢討你們回文審計部了嗎回了回的內容會後可不可以提供給我好如果審計部要把錢追回來你們就會把錢追回來對不對對這件事情很重要下一個問題崔榮浩上任以後提了幾次覆議你知道嗎"},{"start":15066.894,"end":15094.701,"text":"應該是五次吧我們上次修了原住民族委員會組織法三讀後你們原民會發聲明說要提復議提了沒有這個跟委員報告我們就是這個部分我們要研議後來我們研議的結果我們沒有提奇怪了聲明不是嗆得很大聲說要提復議到最後也沒有提怎麼樣是昨天他不支持嗎"},{"start":15095.976,"end":15124.054,"text":"是院長不支持嗎不是後來我們就沒有對嘛我當然知道你客觀上沒有提嘛那我現在的問題就很清楚啊奇怪我們的園民會是把復義當兒戲嗎在臉書上貼還發了新聞稿嗆聲嗆得很大聲結果搞到後來虎頭蛇尾什麼都沒有做是你要提復義卓榮泰不支持嗎說清楚啊"},{"start":15128.404,"end":15129.345,"text":"所以當初發這個聲明然後寫臉書嗆聲是什麼?私慮不周嗎?你內部還沒有研議完就提著發臉書嗆聲"},{"start":15152.727,"end":15179.154,"text":"不是啊!這個臉書是假的嗎?這個新聞稿是假的嗎?我有說錯了嗎?哇!我跟主委講啦三思而後行啦想清楚啦想清楚啦不要以後讓大家不把圓明會的聲明當一回事"},{"start":15180.595,"end":15191.192,"text":"你講了以後又沒有執行到底讓人家看破手腳覺得很遺憾來接下來再請一下部長請部長部長有請"},{"start":15194.966,"end":15212.282,"text":"不好意思部長我們那個進度我要繼續追一下我上一次的時候我有請教你針對極有法修正的進程目前進度如何目前我們警政署已經討論完畢但是跟其他單位之間還需要多久"},{"start":15213.885,"end":15237.033,"text":"可能會有困擾因為行政院會要求我們所謂的復建裡面的禁制區域禁制區域包括像醫院或者是像司法機關前面這些每個人的看法都不一樣所以現在行政院的立場是要繼續維持禁制區嗎現在還是需要考量禁制區但是呢來我們先一個一個具體的來看剛剛你講到禁制區"},{"start":15239.069,"end":15254.778,"text":"這個是內政部在1996年所公告的禁制區國外破區化得非常的大我的在地圖上全部把它框出來這個是1996年內政部公告的禁制區從1996年到現在2025年這個禁制區的範圍有檢討過嗎"},{"start":15259.922,"end":15285.39,"text":"現在在檢討那但是呢現在在檢討所以從1996最起碼到今天為止沒有任何變更嗎目前為止是沒有但是我想委員非常知道在相關的一些集會遊行活動其實我們採取比較有關係的措施非常嚴謹啊當初馬政府時期的時候民進黨發的新聞稿是什麼說的是黑心版本"},{"start":15286.687,"end":15309.914,"text":"為什麼說那個時候提出來這黑心版本因為他要保留禁制區賴清德主張集合法禁制區要刪除這是賴清德在2008年的時候集會遊行法公聘會代表民主進步黨黨團發表的立場這個立場到今天是不是改變了"},{"start":15312.603,"end":15326.789,"text":"這個立場到現在為止所謂的禁制區的規定予以廢除這個事情其實我們有所保留所以賴清德總統的立場改變了是嗎沒有我想賴清德總統所以賴總統的立場沒有改變但是內政部有保留是這樣嗎"},{"start":15327.569,"end":15351.936,"text":"我們的保留是在於執行面會碰到困擾所以當初賴清德在當立委的時候他主張要廢除進治區那個時候醫院的騷擾沒有那麼大對於醫院等安全進治區的騷擾沒有那麼大那時宜進遷啦我們覺得必須要所以時空環境背景不太一樣了賴清德立委那個時候的主張到賴清德總統現在有改變是嗎"},{"start":15353.506,"end":15363.916,"text":"如果說我們的主張 譬如說本來是申請制然後變成一部分的報備制那其實是朝著這個方向在處理我們希望是審慎的處理而不是斷崖式的處理所以那時候賴清德的主張是斷崖式的處理嗎"},{"start":15370.942,"end":15387.1,"text":"沒有 它是它的主張主張跟處理的方式是牽涉到在行政部門的執行的方式那行政部門的執行方式就是剛剛我跟委員報告的部分因為你在司法區域或是相關的司法單位的話不是行政部門 而是司法部門"},{"start":15388.081,"end":15408.392,"text":"然後行政部門包括醫院等等這些一受到騷擾會干擾到病患或是干擾到去司法院處理一些他們的司法的業務的部分的話那這個必須要比較多的時間跟他們溝通所以你剛剛講的那些考慮賴清德當初在主張廢除禁制區的時候都沒有想到就對了"},{"start":15409.116,"end":15425.477,"text":"他是一個原則我們根據這個原則在處理他當初提的原則不就是要廢除經濟區嗎來來來紅色的字啊你要念一下嗎白紙黑字啊寫得這麼清楚的東西啊立場有改變就改變嘛有轉彎就轉彎嘛來"},{"start":15429.368,"end":15454.143,"text":"這個是當初2008年一路到現在2016年那個時候結果到現在就沒有然後了部長說要研議某個程度上我並不反對但是一個法案從2016年都是民進黨政府主政行政部門全部都是民進黨政府研議到現在2025年"},{"start":15456.664,"end":15461.115,"text":"請問部長還要再研議多久?還是一樣沒有時間表,有可能一路研議到2028年"},{"start":15464.349,"end":15484.916,"text":"我無法在這個地方跟委員會明確的回答所以當初在提證件的時候,怎麼提都可以嗎?真的要實現證件的時候,開始問題一堆啊、藉口一堆啊,說要延續大家也都同意嘛重點是什麼?從2016年延續到2025年啊,接下來還要再延續多久?"},{"start":15488.337,"end":15516.997,"text":"仍然會在研議當中我知道 我了解持續的研議嘛一段的研議嘛現在你所講的問題當初在2008年好像都不存在嘛你現在講的問題在2008年都不存在嘛所以2008年的時候那新北總統才會提出這樣的主張嘛結果搞到現在2025年的時候還是一模一樣嘛彷彿你今天講的考慮2008年都不存在一樣"},{"start":15518.544,"end":15546.687,"text":"一個政府開了支票就要兌現不是拿來跳票的但是開了支票要兌現就要審慎所以當初2008年賴清德提這個主張就是不嚴謹就是不嚴謹就是賴清德當初提那樣的主張就是要造成人民的困擾主張跟正式的執政還是需要有時間所以主張就說得是一套真的可以做的時候就沒有要做"},{"start":15547.327,"end":15568.687,"text":"沒有 現在有在做 只是在考量要更審慎是 你們說現在有在做 從2016年做到現在已經2025年了嗎那大家就看你們持續研議下去要研議多久嘛好 謝謝好 謝謝洪國昌委員的諮詢下一位我們請伍麗華委員諮詢"},{"start":15580.02,"end":15581.442,"text":"謝謝主席 有請劉部長劉部長有請"},{"start":15592.46,"end":15609.692,"text":"部長好現行的紀念日及節日實施辦法裡面在第四條這麼寫著就是這些民俗節日除了春節放假三日之外其餘均放假一日那我們可以看到像春節"},{"start":15610.792,"end":15627.986,"text":"民族扫墓节端午节中秋节农历除夕这些对原住民来讲都是属于汉人的碎石记忆但是呢在第六条有一个原住民族的碎石记忆特别提到就是圆明会"},{"start":15629.366,"end":15645.876,"text":"關於到底要放假哪一天可以參酌各個原住民族的習俗然後公告刊登在政府公報那我今天我特別就是要提到我的訴求那這訴求不是源自於我而是多年來"},{"start":15646.917,"end":15674.537,"text":"各地族人不同的一個呼求就是希望說政府呢這個美意為德不足啊希望可以把碎石計一架可以從一天可以增加到三天那為什麼我這樣說因為當時園民會也做了懶人包那發給大家告訴大家說架要怎麼放那他說具備原住民身份的可以從自己或他的配偶"},{"start":15675.037,"end":15699.217,"text":"父母呢来择一日来放假那可是我们遇到的困境就是说请假很难为什么呢因为我们这个叫做行政命令的规定嘛那么这个原住民族碎石记忆呢可以放一天可是很多人他们会提到说雇主不给假甚至"},{"start":15699.978,"end":15716.607,"text":"我們會不敢請因為雇主會說請假之後就不要再回來所以這個部分勞動部當時也有提就是說不行啊這個雇主如果不給假的話依法可以採取新台幣兩萬至一百元"},{"start":15718.368,"end":15737.437,"text":"所以100萬元所以這個部分勞工不知道其實也很多的老闆不知道所以整個感覺上就是整個社會還有部會的一個溝通是很不足的那我就想要請教一下就是部長如果我們的春節只放一天假您會不會返鄉"},{"start":15742.423,"end":15758.033,"text":"春節只放一天假我會不會返鄉事實上就不存在啊因為農曆除夕也放假所以事實上不存在我不回答如果的問題那如果說清明掃墓節放一天你會不會回去"},{"start":15760.18,"end":15775.442,"text":"請問要回去哪裡我就住在這裡老家呢老家對我來講移動都不是困難那如果是要清明掃墓的話我們會擇期只要家人同意就可以了所以比較不會是因為那如果是中秋節呢"},{"start":15778.886,"end":15800.563,"text":"報告委員我想我們以前擔任民意代表都知道放假日越多只是讓民意代表越累而已跟哪一天放假其實沒有太大的差別現在我要講的就是政府一直以來這些年特別我們從陳水扁政府以來我們制定了很多關於原住民族的權益"},{"start":15801.664,"end":15821.442,"text":"不論是在語言的復振、文化的復振我們打的口號就是說過去政府剝奪拿走的尤其是民進黨政府我們非常的鼓勵要重新做語言文化的復振但是我剛剛有講您剛剛講的應該是說民進黨政府並沒有剝奪也沒有拿走那是過去國民黨政府"},{"start":15825.525,"end":15842.471,"text":"党政时期的时候对但是在民进党政府时期我们可以看到包括很多我们的原住民身份法等等原基法等等都得到很多权益跟转型正义的回复现在我就是要讲"},{"start":15843.371,"end":15870.605,"text":"以我們原住民族散落在山巔水崖像蘭嶼我們現在都知道原住民族尤其是內政部的人口統計超過50%都已經移居到渡惠地區所以呢當要去做這種所謂的文化復政的時候很辛苦像蘭嶼的達物族人他有祭典政府告訴他可以放一天假"},{"start":15871.405,"end":15885.429,"text":"但是他要花很多的時間跟交通工具要回到他的家鄉去放這個假我們可以講他根本沒有辦法我剛剛談的是雇主有很多的刁難現在我講的是時間上有很多的困難"},{"start":15890.45,"end":15893.173,"text":"那像這樣的一個狀況就會造成說他還需要返鄉嗎他還要去過他的碎死記憶嗎所以我常常說觀念決定一切也許我們的全民原教我們的社會溝通還不足像很多人放假碎死記憶以排灣族的五年紀來講Malva"},{"start":15911.371,"end":15927.759,"text":"他其實前前後後需要15天那以阿賴族一律信他也是要從前一個月就要集合訓練學習技能才有辦法參加他們所謂的一個豐年祭一律信"},{"start":15928.479,"end":15951.198,"text":"那這個部分其實我們也不過只放一天所以呢對很多人來講他的交通時間成本他很難放假第二個他的雇主也很難給假因為不理解有那麼重要嗎你有需要嗎所以我很高興的是說我們有看到全民原教的一環就是有一個叫做多元文化假"},{"start":15952.138,"end":15955.382,"text":"現在有一些大學 像是台大、政大 每學期可以請兩天像政大是每學年可以請兩天 但是這是大學自治 不是每個大學都會有這樣的規定"},{"start":15971.46,"end":15994.913,"text":"所以呢我們總希望說政府總是要有個規念像我們現在的這個紀念日及節日的實施辦法它就是一個規念那我想要請教部長的就是說我不是問同意你是否認同像這種原住民的碎石記憶架可以增加到三天這是大多數原住民族人的呼求"},{"start":15996.074,"end":16022.225,"text":"報告委員我想你講的放假的部分齁如果用這樣的方式是治標不治本在內政部所主導的裡面原住民族的遂時寄宜他本來就可以放假但是你告訴我說因為他交通的關係因為他沒有辦法回去的關係所以增加變成三天那增加三天的勞動成本有沒有社會共識就是跟我們今天所討論的一樣有沒有社會共識所以我所以"},{"start":16023.706,"end":16044.305,"text":"同時的問題的話就要回歸到原來的每個部會裡面在討論我們這樣的做法對不對部長我現在要談的就是這樣我希望說不要治標不治本我們用標的方式要治本這件事情的話呢包括增加一天那剛剛我聽原民會的主委在提有些部落他們可能做這個"},{"start":16047.761,"end":16072.366,"text":"長達一個月的這個時間那我們怎麼樣去回覆這個原民的同胞對於遂時祭儀的認同對於我們來講它是一個紀念它是一個尊重原住民族但是原住民族太多不同的族群有不同的遂時祭儀的狀況之下我們也只能夠說放假一天那包括委員所提案的部分的話你提到的你還幫客家人提案"},{"start":16073.186,"end":16094.14,"text":"有客家人談我的提案我只講說是記憶因為這是我最低微的最低的訴求但是你提到的都只有一天你今天突然提到變成三天那這樣子是不是可以獲得所有的全國的人的認同然後把它放到這個假日裡面我覺得還是要回復到原來內政部所制定的全國的版本那部長我跟您說剛才你提到治標 治本的問題現在我們也要提當我們在放這些假的時候"},{"start":16103.566,"end":16126.217,"text":"我們到底有沒有放到實質上的意義現在顯然是沒有的這個就是我講的政府的美意為德不足當我們在放這些所謂漢人的碎石記憶架的時候但是我們回頭看我們要放原住民的碎石記憶架它既因為社會觀念的溝通不足"},{"start":16127.037,"end":16133.984,"text":"他有障礙他又因為大家沒有辦法理解原住民今日的處境散落在都會地區返鄉的時間跟交通成本的困難這些種種我都是希望說我們是不是要加強社會溝通"},{"start":16144.674,"end":16167.291,"text":"第二個就是說要全面盤點國定假日的社會共識而且要特別特別提醒要注意元旱節日權益的不平等這個就是我最後的訴求也就是剛才部長您所提到的那些這也正是我覺得在社會溝通部分我們其實還有很大的一段路要走那我希望"},{"start":16167.851,"end":16187.188,"text":"內政部在這個部分能夠跟我們的其他的部會 相關的部會包括原民會 包括行政院人事總署包括我們的勞動部等等等然後能夠盡力的來去做好全面的社會溝通那我們很希望全民原教的這一天能夠快快的到來這樣可以嗎 部長"},{"start":16191.636,"end":16202.914,"text":"尊重委員那我們就要盡力的來往這個方向走好 謝謝部長好 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳立華委員的質詢下一位我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":16220.146,"end":16248.006,"text":"主席有請內政部長還有曾主委劉部長曾主委有請部長辛苦了是委員你好我們看這個中央法規標準法第五條特別規定這個法例有名規定的應以法例規定之"},{"start":16249.222,"end":16272.734,"text":"關於人民的權利義務要以法例行政程序法第150條規定法規命令要有法例的授權要有法例的依據這個很明確所以我們現在的這些這個行政程序法88年2月3號"},{"start":16275.051,"end":16302.771,"text":"公佈施行公佈然後90年1月1號施行為什麼這跟紀念日節日有沒有關係呢這個就涉及到我們的紀念日及節日實施辦法目前到現在這個還是叫辦法按照中央法規標準法應該要用法例來明定因"},{"start":16303.447,"end":16330.181,"text":"依據行政程序法也應該要有法律的說前這個是中央法規標準法這是行政程序法所明定中華民國的法規命令唯一還存在不合行政程序法的就是這個紀念日及節日實施辦法"},{"start":16332.2,"end":16359.434,"text":"從民國90年1月1號已經違法25年了部長這個已經違法25年了部長報告委員可能我再跟委員再做一下補充紀念日跟節日實施辦法其實上一次的修正日期是在民國103年不是你所說的90年"},{"start":16364.703,"end":16385.116,"text":"我要從頭講來部長這個民國40幾年這個辦法民國40幾年就有了我的重點是說依照中央法規標準法尤其是民國90年1月1號施行的行政程序法規定"},{"start":16387.128,"end":16410.657,"text":"早期就比較混了 早期沒有完全法治化從民國90年1月1號開始行政程序法規定所有的法規命令要有法律的授權沒有法律的授權就要失效就是違法的 我是在講這個"},{"start":16412.695,"end":16439.529,"text":"所以紀念日及節日實施辦法依照行政程序法的規定要法律的授權但是他沒有法律的授權然後他也沒有法律的依據所以他是違法25年的法規命令我的意思是這樣好當初啊為了一律一修"},{"start":16442.191,"end":16469.48,"text":"105年修正勞動基準法原來的勞動基準法對於勞工的放假本來不是這樣規定的為了一律一修把它改成第三次七條內政部鎖定應放假日今年的節日勞動節及其他中央主管機關指定應放假日均應休假這個就是你看法律竟然依據這個"},{"start":16471.308,"end":16494.715,"text":"違法的紀念日及節日實施辦法我要講的是這個中華民國民主憲政的一個國家所以內政部作為一個紀念日及節日實施辦法的主管機關怎麼樣去釋法"},{"start":16495.64,"end":16524.627,"text":"合法要想辦法去說服當然不完全是你的責任了過去的8年的尤其是過去的內政部不管是哪一年開始至少從90年1月1號以後的內政部部長都應該有這個責任去溝通協調要趕快把這個成為一個法律的位階本席的重點在這邊"},{"start":16525.762,"end":16553.614,"text":"好原住民族遂時計一假應該回復放假三日這個曾主委特別看一下內政部部長也看一下民國八十四年前夕部八十四年二月二十八號前夕部發行給所有的機關根據誰的依據呢根據台灣省政府"},{"start":16555.792,"end":16582.833,"text":"請求前序部援助民族碎石記憶希望能夠從一天改為放三天假前序部在84年2月28號同意放三天假因為這張公文公教人員軍公教人員放三天假相關的勞工也配合這個規定"},{"start":16585.202,"end":16613.846,"text":"也配合這個規定去放三天假我們現在就是希望能夠回復應該要回復應該要回復以前都做得到啊以前都虧三天假為什麼變一天假應該要回復所以本席所提的這個我的名稱叫國家紀念日及節日實施法"},{"start":16615.456,"end":16642.987,"text":"這個特別明定原住民族的誓死期應該跟春節一樣要放三天假這個人民會你們的報告獨落了鄭天才三個字這個請檢討好不好你們的報告沒有我的名字有關接下來那個部長就請回座"},{"start":16644.454,"end":16672.192,"text":"現在接下來跟園民會主要是園民會園民會我們很多事情就要去跟相關的部會溝通協調包括剛才講的前戲部當時就可以有三天假當然我曾經當過副主委我也沒有盡到後面的責任被剝奪了改為一天之後的一個責任我們要繼續努力"},{"start":16673.271,"end":16702.692,"text":"好我現在接下來談的就是這個蔡總統特別提到這個原住民族的相關的這些好我因為時間的關係原住民族重大歷史事件這個很明確都已經調查完畢了所以民族平等紀念日也應該要明定為什麼有228對不對和平紀念日為什麼就不能有原住民族"},{"start":16703.393,"end":16732.692,"text":"平等紀念日來紀念我們13個重大的歷史事件所以這個部分這個是我們必須要請這個園民會多多多的跟內政部以及相關的部會包括人事行政總署包括行政院來多溝通協調希望能夠促成我們應該應該要有的放假日或者是"},{"start":16733.491,"end":16742.579,"text":"紀念日 以上 謝謝好 謝謝我們曾天才委員的質詢下一位請張祺凱委員張祺凱委員張祺凱委員不在下一位我們請李燕秀委員質詢好 謝謝 我請部長部長有請"},{"start":16769.131,"end":16788.172,"text":"謝謝部長你辛苦了因為今天這個議題其實我最近在地方上溝通其實好多人都很關心所以今天我要就兩個層面來去討論這個議題一個是立法的必要性跟放假的必要性我們現在規範節日的放假是透過紀念日跟節日的實施法來去做規範"},{"start":16789.533,"end":16810.995,"text":"規範的範圍其實非常的廣也影響了民眾的權益那我們現在用職權命令決定放假對不對我講這句話對不對你們現在內政部是用職權命令來決定放假我們只是提供實施辦法但是決定放假是有行政院人士行政總署在沒念力的你後面有沒有法源依據我知道你後面有沒有法源依據"},{"start":16813.917,"end":16829.885,"text":"過去曾經我們希望透過職權命令相關規範來去做討論但是很多學者其實有質疑後來我們希望修法但事實上是沒有通過的就是說我們並不適合擴張職權命令的範圍跟效力所以我過去我們應該再次來檢討加速檢討職權命令的妥適性我今天部長我還沒有要跟你討論說我們哪天放假哪天不要放假"},{"start":16840.771,"end":16867.359,"text":"我現在是從法源的依據來跟部長您做討論就是說我們來決定這件事情內政部是不是有足夠的權力我們的職權命令到底背後有沒有法源依據不論接下來我們決定都不放假維持現狀還是說我們要放一天兩天三天這是另外一個議題但是我們自己的職權命令背後我們法源的基礎我們站的到底夠不夠穩"},{"start":16869.259,"end":16887.511,"text":"這個是我今天主要要跟部長討論就是說你同不同意就是說在機關在如果具有專業性具有時效性在機關的功能的理論當中其實行政機關的權限相對是重要的"},{"start":16888.191,"end":16917.094,"text":"但是屬於放假我講像像放假這些譬如說教師姐要不要放假啦譬如說行縣要不要放假啦我們中秋節現在有放這個是屬於比較多元性的那也有一點價值的一些想法在裡頭所以這些事情應該在我看來應該屬於比較多是立法機關的權限就是說我們到底教師姐要不要放假我們中秋節現在有放我們端午節要不要放假"},{"start":16918.054,"end":16934.608,"text":"這幾件事情它是屬於比較多元的在我看來我覺得應該有更多民意的討論應該有更多民意的背景來去支撐我們所以我才會覺得說這件事情應該要有更多廣泛的民意基礎"},{"start":16935.609,"end":16960.417,"text":"所以內政部在決定這件事情的時候過去在決定這件事情的時候我覺得我們的職權命令變成是擴權或者我應該是說我們法院的背景其實我們的利潤點是不足的這個是我今天我要跟部長您探討第一個問題就即便我們後面要怎麼做都不放放一天放兩天放三天放七天我覺得"},{"start":16961.477,"end":16978.049,"text":"只有行政機關來做這件事情我們法院依據是不足的這是第一點我要跟您溝通的第二點就是說台灣向來是過勞之島我們在OECD國家今天很多委員都提過了我們的總工時雖然近幾年我們看起來好像有想辦法降工時啦等等"},{"start":16978.689,"end":16992.991,"text":"但是我們在2023年的時候我們的工時其實還比2022年多了15個小時在OECD國家當中其實我們的過勞也排名第五"},{"start":16993.852,"end":17022.078,"text":"那我們跟鄰近的亞洲國家相比我們的工時僅次於新加坡日本跟韓國我今天早上看到很多委員已經把大表都拉出來各個狀況那台灣勞工我們雖然你對勞動部也很清楚你過去跟勞工接觸也很多我知道我們的特休假實習使用率是偏低的那我們的特休假用完特休假的比例只有51%那我們去探究為什麼其他49%沒有用掉有一些可能"},{"start":17022.538,"end":17035.937,"text":"百分之二十他可能想換成抵薪資可以抵扣工資可以拿回一些錢另外百分之三十給放假你為什麼不放他用不到不是他用不到他根本用不完"},{"start":17036.877,"end":17057.284,"text":"所以我們希望台灣的勞工有足夠的休息我覺得全國統一的節日放假可以減少衍生很多人想休息也不敢休息無論是老闆的壓力也好但是當全國統一放假的時候比如中秋節大家都放假所以他自然他就休"},{"start":17058.064,"end":17085.016,"text":"你給他特休有些百分之三十的人他不敢休工作做不完不敢休你一直休你一直休老闆下次可能就早就叫你不要來了這是現在職場的問題我想部長你跟勞工界也這麼熟你跟民間都這麼熟你非常清楚你又待公務機關這麼長一段時間工作沒做完誰敢特休敢休完光是你內政部底下有一些人可能特休也沒休完為什麼沒有休不敢休因為事情還沒有完全做完"},{"start":17085.598,"end":17099.088,"text":"這是有另外一份責任在所以我覺得我今天就兩個問題立法的必要性跟放假的必要性來去凸顯我的問題我也希望內政部要去思考法院的依據還有我們放假必要性應該回歸到立法機關以上 謝謝"},{"start":17100.356,"end":17115.845,"text":"好 謝謝李彥秀委員的諮詢下一位我們請鍾嘉斌委員諮詢鍾嘉斌委員 鍾嘉斌委員好 不在下一位我們請何新淳委員諮詢何新淳委員 何新淳委員好 不在下一位我們請李坤澄委員諮詢"},{"start":17124.868,"end":17130.38,"text":"謝謝主席請部長部長也辛苦了現在都還沒有用餐嗎"},{"start":17131.786,"end":17157.904,"text":"因為我們沒有準備便當因為業務費被刪掉沒有預算了辛苦了那請教一下部長我看今天這個當然今天的主題就在講說是不是要把這個我們紀念日跟節日實施辦法把它這個法制化那我看各個委員他們所提出來的版本這個也差異性也相當的大紀念日就有33種那節日有多達38種"},{"start":17159.545,"end":17172.236,"text":"然後我們現在我們現在就是說這個包含這個紀念日還有這個節日、放假日總共有11天然後包含這個租休日那全年的總放假日大概是115到116日這是目前的這個情況"},{"start":17176.039,"end":17192.339,"text":"我早上也聽了這個部長這個的回答就是認為說目前的這個紀念日還有節日實施辦法這個比較具有彈性那因為也各個委員的版本差異性也很大所以是不是維持現狀會比較好一點點"},{"start":17194.321,"end":17202.004,"text":"是謝謝委員的指教我們內政部大概跟相關的單位討論過會認為說維持現在的實施辦法會比較好就它比較有彈性所謂的比較有彈性譬如說我們上一次啊103年修法的時候是把原住民的碎石記憶放到這個碎石記憶日裡面變成是可以放假等等這些"},{"start":17216.59,"end":17229.745,"text":"那如果未來我們把它法律化法制化的話你每一年都要再重新修正說我今年要放什麼假除非說我們就是以前的原例辦理那這樣子的話呢在彈性上面就法律上來講彈性會比較少"},{"start":17232.168,"end":17245.903,"text":"維持現在的實施辦法當然我也提到說你們違反行政命令上面的部分其實我們在91年的時候也問過法務部法務部是所有的法律的解釋機關他有提到說我們這樣子的一個節日的管理辦法"},{"start":17246.664,"end":17269.161,"text":"其實並沒有限縮到人民的自由跟限縮他們的權利所以維持現在的辦法是可以接受的那如果你要變成立法的時候呢就是變成是由立法院三讀通過了法律案的話就會碰到我們剛剛在行政部門裡面所碰觸到的問題那如果沒有辦法解決這種彈性的部分的話呢這個立法會變成是一個空白的授權"},{"start":17269.921,"end":17295.323,"text":"譬如說國定紀念日放假然後國際上的譬如說國際勞動節或是國際婦女節放假等等這些你全部把它爐裂下來那一年到底放假幾天沒有人可以講得清楚那部長就是說你剛才講的就是說比較有彈性然後我看每個委員他版本差異性也很大那我講一個可能會比較具有共識的一個提案你來聽看看就是說春節"},{"start":17297.318,"end":17321.93,"text":"我們現在除限是放假一天然後春節是放假三天如果遇到例假日就還補假所以至少有六天是屬於連續假期我們通常為了方便大家提早回家所以有可能在小年夜的時候我們就會彈性的補假可是小年夜彈性補假的時候就有可能要在"},{"start":17322.71,"end":17350.306,"text":"下一個工作的這個禮拜六就要補班我舉這個我們今年的我們今年休了九天休了九天其中那個1月27號它就是屬於小年夜彈性放假然後呢那我們就在這個2月8號的時候呢我們就補班那但是就是有九天就是有九天那我在想說那我就舉這個明年2026年的例子那明年2026年呢這個在2月20號那一天呢"},{"start":17350.906,"end":17372.739,"text":"就是說理論上有可能也會讓他變成一個彈性放假然後接下來再找一天來補班那這樣子一樣會有九天的一個連續的假期那我想說因為春節畢竟是我們台灣人就是回家比較長的一個節日那如果說現在我們大概已經固定是放四天加上遇到這個"},{"start":17374.019,"end":17389.908,"text":"如果假日的話就補假大概有六天的時間那有沒有辦法譬如說像這個彈性補假那一天不論是小年夜或是說像卡在中間的這一天可不可以就是把它當成是連續假期的一天然後不要再來補班有沒有辦法就是把我們這個春節的這個"},{"start":17392.25,"end":17405.818,"text":"這個假期把它固定不論是七天或是九天把它固定然後讓大家也能夠提早去安排這個有關這個春節的這個行程然後接下來那一天這個補班的那一天能不能就是不要補班了"},{"start":17406.807,"end":17430.403,"text":"那個委員非常有創意而且我覺得可能符合大眾上的想法就是我能不能休長一點然後不要只有中間譬如星期三放假然後一二要來上班然後四五又要上班那如果像農曆春節這個是亞洲人常常有的這個長時間的放假那一次放假十天到底好與不好或是一次放假八天或九天到底好與不好這是可以討論的空間"},{"start":17431.644,"end":17444.649,"text":"也就是說很多人不管你是因為親子活動要安排長時間到國外旅遊等等我們是有一個期待值這個期待值要放在哪裡就會變成說到底我們那一年要多放假幾天補班日不要來"},{"start":17447.83,"end":17470.432,"text":"然後預備放假日可以先放假那總共到底是幾天現在不管是春節也好或者是清明節或者是端午節或者是中秋節或者是大家在在乎的五一勞動節它是不是可以變成是大家可以期待的一個放假那這樣子可能很多人會覺得我可以趕快來安排我要去哪裡旅遊或是有什麼親子活動這是一個"},{"start":17471.573,"end":17489.799,"text":"那第二個我們就要來解決不是法律上的問題在解決說勞動關係上面這樣好與不好現在因為長假的關係然後也有一部分人是因為長假反而增加他的工時跟增加勞僱者自己本身的一個工作量"},{"start":17490.379,"end":17497.082,"text":"我們有沒有其他的方案來幫他解決因為我們講究平衡跟平等那這個就是屬於目的事業主管機關包括交通部包括勞動部包括經濟部他們要去處理的這個狀況如果他們也認為說這個是一個好的對於大家來講是一個好的方向那這樣的方向呢覺得可行那我覺得站在行政部門的立場上面我們沒有什麼好說去從頭到尾都反對要維持什麼什麼"},{"start":17519.492,"end":17545.643,"text":"沒有那麼死沒有那麼死硬所以我們是保持開放的因為現在春節至少會放到六天以上那我剛才講的只是說本來要補班的那一天你把它變成就是說把它變成是春假的一整個部分一天它就不要補班對 因為其實其實大家會要放在星期一還是放在星期五大家就會很爭論對啦其實你們到現在到這個明年的春節還有很多很長的時間你們可以去討論一下那我認為說"},{"start":17546.463,"end":17575.663,"text":"把這個春假的這個時間把它固定化大家比較好容易去安排你春節的一個時間啊春節沒辦法固定春節是農曆沒有沒有就是時間啊時間當然因為農曆嘛對要跟著農曆的利益我說放假的時間不是說它固定的時間這放假的時間比如說是七天或是九天那因為我們現在常常是用那個彈性彈性放假然後再補班那其實大家比較有抱怨應該就是補班那一天那我是覺得說如果能夠讓它這個固定的這個放假天數能夠確定"},{"start":17576.443,"end":17602.713,"text":"那其實對於大家的安排春節這個假期比較容易去安排你們這個可以去考慮一下我們保持開放然後聽聽各界的想法主席我佔有一點時間就是說現在一些網紅因為違反到相關的規定我們就要把他遣返回去不過我有看到有一篇報導我要確認一下說移民署到底有沒有說過類似的話"},{"start":17604.153,"end":17623.09,"text":"他說這個雅雅在3月15號他說原本移民署說出於人道主義要她收到廢紙拘留證的公文之後可以去申請團聚就不必立即離境能夠在台灣停留6個月陪孩子後來是因為有人說如果移民署這樣做的話沒有在10天之內把她驅逐出境的話是違反相關規定的要告她獨職"},{"start":17628.294,"end":17634.89,"text":"然後呢3月16號我們的這個移民署的副署長才說要執行強制的促進那我想請問一下我們移民署有這樣子跟瑤瑤這樣子講嗎"},{"start":17637.426,"end":17656.182,"text":"我想有兩個層次跟委員回覆一下第一個這位忠沛他其實沒有拿到台灣的身份證所以他只是依親居留我們是依法取消他的依親居留我想他在網路上面已經講到要武力捅武捅台灣等等這樣的言論不遜容於台灣然後再來檢舉不會是只有一個人的檢舉"},{"start":17661.867,"end":17685.852,"text":"所以網紅上面所講的部分我們就是可以說當成參考但是不是定案然後再來有關於依親拘留有包括說申請團聚等等這些本來在我們移民署的依親拘留規定就有提到但是我們真正給他的處分書裡面並不是3月16日而是3月15日也就是要求他要限期離境那所以他限制離境的地位是在哪個時候"},{"start":17686.531,"end":17705.471,"text":"我想容許我們有一點空間第一個就是說他收到這個處分書的時候要按照我們的行政程序要非常嚴謹那他收到處分書之後呢理論上他是要十天內離境那我們會讓他有這個空間但是哪一天我想我們還是保持讓他可以有安全離境的空間所以呢"},{"start":17707.64,"end":17727.955,"text":"這個執行強制出境然後按照規定是10天這個是我們的規定嗎移民署在處理有關於這個限期離境時候的相關規定那算了一下應該是24號之前我想我還是不對外講我的意思就是說有點像是譬如說郵局給你雙掛號那放在你家的樓下你沒有接到你第二天才接到那我們就要從"},{"start":17729.015,"end":17743.968,"text":"第三天開始算起這會有一點上下的時間點那部長要請移民署要去注意一下那個時間那也不要讓這個還有其他的這些網紅就想說我是不是還有什麼其他的一些法律上的漏洞可以繼續留在台灣"},{"start":17744.528,"end":17767.374,"text":"我們目前法律上並沒有漏洞第一個我們所依據的是我們的兩岸人民關係條例然後還有入出境管理跟移民法所以我們依據這兩個法律所制定下來的這個行政的規範到目前為止也沒有改變過那事實上在過去好長一段時間裡面外國國籍如果觸犯到台灣法律者我們這是按照相關的規定辦理"},{"start":17768.234,"end":17795.74,"text":"那除了這個劉鎮雅之外還有你們也約談了其他的這些網紅他們的言論也涉及到有武統的那請問一下那後續的處理的情況是怎麼樣也是一樣現在所這個就是說有其他的管道不管是我們自己從網路上看到或是有人檢舉過來的話我們就按照規定來約談那有沒有像他這樣子還要這個後續會執行這個強制出境的有但是時間上容許我們有點保留因為這是行政程序處理的範圍"},{"start":17796.36,"end":17823.714,"text":"OK 好 那我先問到這邊好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長好 謝謝李昆城委員 下一位我們請黃建豪委員質詢黃建豪委員 黃建豪委員不在下一位我們請賴世保委員質詢賴世保委員 賴世保委員好 不在下一位我們請林俊憲委員質詢林俊憲委員 林俊憲委員不在下一位我們請林倩琦委員質詢林倩琦委員 林倩琦委員不在好 下一位我們請葉元之委員質詢"},{"start":17834.144,"end":17834.624,"text":"我們今天要討論"},{"start":17847.403,"end":17863.736,"text":"有關於放假的問題因為這個放假問題有幾個層次第一個層次是到底要不要不應該要放第二個是如果要的話放幾天第三個是要放如果可以放的話放什麼假我想問一下部長你現在態度是什麼"},{"start":17864.316,"end":17883.447,"text":"是說都不能放我想我在上次在立法院院會跟院長陪同的時候有特別提到我們是希望維持現狀也就是按照現在我們的一個實施辦法來處理那因為我們有詢問過法務部法務部認為說我們並沒有侵犯到人民限制他的權利"},{"start":17884.568,"end":17897.963,"text":"沒有侵犯到限制他的權利事項所以按照現在的辦法按照行政命令來講是可以的那但是公佈每一年的放假日的話是由行政院的人事行政總處他們是依照公務員服務法的相關規定來公佈的"},{"start":17899.805,"end":17916.198,"text":"是 謝謝部長那因為那個我覺得不管是不是人事行政總署的問題啦但是內政部應該也是要有個態度啦因為我在教育文化委員會的時候前幾天我有質詢教育部那時候我問他們說知不支持教師節放假"},{"start":17916.874,"end":17944.338,"text":"那教師節放假這個議題在前幾個禮拜有一個教團來立法院開記者會當時藍綠白很多位立委都有出席都一致支持啦那當然支持的原因一方面是大家覺得說台灣應該也是可以多放幾天假第二個可以選定為教師節為目標為什麼因為尊師重道嘛然後讓這個老師們在這一天也可以放假全國都可以因為這樣子放假那我問教育部啊"},{"start":17944.999,"end":17948.412,"text":"這部一開始的時候也是推給內政部他說這個是內政部決定的"},{"start":17950.031,"end":17977.882,"text":"那後來我問那個教育部說那不管是不是內政部決定你教育部的態度是什麼如果說人事警政總署詢問大家教師節該不該放假的時候那教育部你支持嗎後來教育部說他支持啦所以我現在也是問內政部您的態度啦就是說如果是人事警政總署來問跟你們這邊問詢問說假設我們現在要增加幾天假或者是把這個假打字化的話我不知道部長你的態度是什麼"},{"start":17978.524,"end":17993.074,"text":"有關法制化的問題我剛剛已經回答過葉委員我希望維持現狀是一個實施辦法因為我們認為比較有彈性那第二個有關增加放假哪一個教師節先講還是有關教師節的部分就是我今天在跟很多委員的時候特別提到我們會認為說根據身份別的部分的話"},{"start":18000.78,"end":18017.157,"text":"來做紀念活動本來就有譬如說有的是婦女有的是青年有的是兒童有的是勞動的但是你如果單單提出來說教師節要讓他慶祝以外還要放假那就會牽涉到每個委員有不同的版本有的委員沒有放進去有的委員放進去"},{"start":18018.038,"end":18018.638,"text":"我們已經跟各位回答過就是說我們的"},{"start":18037.987,"end":18061.393,"text":"放假日再加上週休二日目前為止大概就是一般人是一百一十五天如果是勞動勞工的話是一百一十六天那你如果要增加一天增加兩天增加三天甚至有人要增加到七天或九天請問你要增加在哪裡那我們的立場是不要用身分別所以我可以這樣解讀嗎就是說其實你是贊成增加假日啊"},{"start":18061.613,"end":18087.025,"text":"只是說你覺得要放哪一天假可以再需要凝聚共事嗎是這個意思嗎你剛剛是這個意思嗎我可不可以用這樣的方式再跟委員解釋一下譬如說外面很多人會覺得說勞動日勞動節要放假但是我們的立場五一勞動節的勞動者本來就放假是沒有勞動者的軍公教要放假也是全國要一起放假所以"},{"start":18087.685,"end":18102.117,"text":"重點是在於說我們全國要一致放假的話就是全國要有共識我們所謂的共識不是百分之百喔全國要有共識要增加假日那既然全國要有共識要增加假日要增加在哪一天我們就有26個版本的33種不同的假日"},{"start":18105.62,"end":18132.515,"text":"對 所以我剛剛在問嘛因為你一定要慢慢收斂問題嘛不然這兩個問題全部都揪在一起了對 因為我剛剛在問說某一個節該不該放的時候你只是提到說沒有共識你好像講到說你也願意增加假日但是呢問到說你知不支持增加假日你又說呢可是要放哪一天呢我們不知道所以我現在就是要我們要收斂問題嘛就是說是不是說其實你也認為說多放幾天假是符合世界潮流"},{"start":18133.155,"end":18146.255,"text":"只是說現在到底要放哪一天需要社會共識是這個意思嗎還是說你覺得其實以現在的勞工的條件或者是台灣人工時其實沒有增加假期也沒有關係因為沒有影響到他們權益"},{"start":18147.546,"end":18170.214,"text":"沒有 勞動的部分我不幫勞動部回應我想勞動部他們本來就應該增加勞工的權益但是我現在講的是全國放假的因為一直都閃來閃去這樣子大家很難知道說內政因為我跟你講我們去別的部會問大家都說這個要問是內政部管然後我們來內政委員會問內政部內政部又說是人事行政層主要是負責社會問題所以我們只有接下去"},{"start":18171.588,"end":18195.011,"text":"對啊 可是問題是你的回答我剛剛講過這個是講全國放假日的問題那既然是全國放假日的問題你特別選擇某一種職業身份的話就不適合嗎比較奇怪所以意思是說現在如果說我們立法院的委員大家都可以有共識說挑到一個節日大家都沒問題那內政部也願意支持嗎是這個意思嗎"},{"start":18195.692,"end":18201.844,"text":"立法院都已經做成決議內政部怎麼敢反對很多立法院決議內政部都反對啦"},{"start":18203.369,"end":18228.236,"text":"而且很多立法委員提的版本那時候大家都要等願版啦其實大家都是希望說什麼政策是行政機關跟立法院都一致討論過通過啦我現在只問你的意見嘛所以我今天對很多委員都提到說第一個不希望它是政黨之間的爭議而是大家可以坐下來談我們要不要增加這個全國放假日那如果大家都有這樣子的控制"},{"start":18230.117,"end":18246.782,"text":"不是 不要一直講我沒意見我們本來就要尊重如果大家都有這樣共識的話我相信行政院的很多其他的部會因為你不能只有講一個部會負責所有的事情都會按照這樣的方向因為我的瞭解是人事行政總書在每一次做相關決定的時候他都會發回去詢問各部會嗎"},{"start":18248.502,"end":18266.402,"text":"那有的部會就會表達支持或不支持嘛舉例來講好了像去年上個會期我質詢那時候還沒有還不是新政府的時候潘文忠部長前教育部長潘文忠我問他支不支持勞動節放假因為那時候我們是討論到有的代理老師他雖然是保勞保但是他不是用勞基法所以勞動節"},{"start":18267.743,"end":18290.293,"text":"他們就變成不放假學校公益有可能是用勞基法放假我就問他說怎麼去解決這個問題他就說人事行政總署已經在調查說支不支持勞動節全國都放假教育部就是支持的所以其實有擔當的首長本來就可以表達你對於這個假支不支持因為你們內部你也是其中一個內閣的閣員嘛你本來就可以有你的態度再來你內政部的立場"},{"start":18291.013,"end":18308.718,"text":"所以不是說好像我們問你的立場你就是說這個就立法院決定我們就OK或者是我怎樣怎樣怎樣其實這個並沒有回答到問題我不是這個意思我的意思是說站在行政跟立法互相尊重的狀況之下我們沒有個人的立場我們會表達機關的立場機關的立場就是全國放假日要能夠出來一個版本"},{"start":18314.441,"end":18339.312,"text":"而不是針對某一些特定的族群跟身份您剛所提到教師節要不要放假我也提到了我聽到的部分就是說如果教師節要全國一致放假的話首先衝擊到的就是偏鄉教師的這個我剛剛我了解你的意思我只是問說你支持不支持多放假我現在沒講什麼節日嘛我現在說是不是只要大家能夠討論出一個節日出來你也是支持的我現在問題其實是這個"},{"start":18341.91,"end":18352.133,"text":"聽得懂我意思嗎還是你不能回答尊重委員好謝謝好謝謝岳元之委員的諮詢最後我們請陳茵委員諮詢謝謝主席麻煩請原民會主委跟內政部長曾志偉 劉部長有請"},{"start":18375.465,"end":18394.031,"text":"我想這次國定假日跟節日修法的討論我想本席有幾個主張第一個主張就是除了希望可以為警察與消防在消防節還有警察節可以放假一日外"},{"start":18395.971,"end":18421.469,"text":"另外的一個主張就是希望再把這個8月1日的原住民族日定為國定假日那8月1號原住民族日的由來呢是1993年台灣原住民族權力促進會也就是原權會當時有發起了這個原住民族正名運動那原權會呢在這個體制外倡議了10年"},{"start":18423.63,"end":18443.631,"text":"終於在1994年的8月1號的國民大會通過將山包改為原住民那原住民族是最早成為這塊土地的主人所以原住民的正名是原住民族轉型爭議的起源那8月1號這一天呢它代表著尊重原住民族的文化歷史"},{"start":18444.312,"end":18461.308,"text":"那更是在台湾多元族群融合的象征所以本席认为呢8月1号这一天不是局限在台湾的原住民族而已他更凸显了我们整个台湾落实两公约的这个深远的意涵所以"},{"start":18463.154,"end":18488.314,"text":"本席特別主張也贊成希望在8月1日可以全國放假一天那另外呢我第三個主張就是希望在這個歲時計一假可以改為三日那因為像我舉例我們卑南族除了就是說在這個跨年的年紀之外呢我們還有收穫季那還有這個阿美族當然他"},{"start":18489.415,"end":18509.975,"text":"除了这个一粒性之外呢还有这个海济等等那因为我们因益各族他不同的这个文化不同的技艺其实在者就是我们原住民大概有一半的人口都在都会区工作那这个往返"},{"start":18510.615,"end":18525.643,"text":"如果只是那個飛機直接或者火車直接到達市區或原鄉市區但是很多人還要再可能開個一兩個小時的車子才能回到部落"},{"start":18526.463,"end":18551.337,"text":"那除了就是说一年的这个岁数计有好几个以外呢另外就是说其实我想在很多好几个族群我们其实都有分年龄阶层啦我们一个简单的大家可能以为这个阿美族的一粒性就是你们俗称的我们不喜欢用丰年纪来讲的讲丰年纪会被纠正说你要讲一粒性这样好那"},{"start":18553.598,"end":18579.699,"text":"這個各個階層都有不同的工作要上山打獵要去砍竹子然後還要蓋一些傳統的一些小型的建築很多的工作要做的男女有別大家都有不同的工作所以這個不是你們想像中一天的記憶而已扣掉交通那我們其他真的做文化傳承的工作是真的不夠的"},{"start":18580.8,"end":18598.82,"text":"所以這個部分我不曉得就是就是說我想這個原民會主委一定支持這個我們絕對不會懷疑但我不曉得就是說內政部這邊的態度是怎麼樣是不是主委跟部長可以"},{"start":18599.821,"end":18619.52,"text":"都發表一下意見好 謝謝陳議委員的關心陳議委員在原鄉地區可以說是衛冕喉舌非常的努力那有關你所提到的碎石記憶的部分在我們的一個實施辦法裡面是放在第四條原住民族的碎石記憶的話各該原住民族放假日期"},{"start":18620.06,"end":18642.233,"text":"由行政院原住民族委員會參酌各該原住民族習俗公告並且刊登政府公報也就是我們內政部呢都是尊重原民會的一個公告那目前我所了解就是說原住民的睡食計是以一天的放假為主那如果要解決相關的其他問題的話可能要請原民會來跟陳委員報告是 那原民會"},{"start":18646.271,"end":18663.99,"text":"這個隨時計改為三天當然我們是支持但是這個涉及到整個國家的總體經濟還有企業的經營層面很廣那我們是建議我們會再跟主管機關我們再來通盤考量但我們還是尊重委員的這個意見謝謝"},{"start":18665.795,"end":18691.186,"text":"因為通常尊重就會有蠻多的變數當你不知道要做什麼反應的時候我們就尊重那我想我還是希望說園民會可以在這個部分我很清楚主委是絕對理解我們這樣的需求那個主委我想我們單純就我們以這個碎石記憶文化傳承的這個角度去看這樣要求三天假合不合理"},{"start":18692.767,"end":18714.323,"text":"單純看這樣子是合理 單純看是合理因為這個很多的原因啦對 那但因為涉及到要請假的時候就會可能很多的公司老闆就會開始計算這個公司營運有沒有受影響啦 點點點那所以這個部分我還是在這邊要求主委要據以利爭是"},{"start":18715.904,"end":18743.649,"text":"然後達成我們其實我們走到哪裡大家都做這樣子的訴求謝謝 那個部長可以先請回座那我快速時間到我快速講一下這個事情主委我想請教一下因為過年之後我發現一個很奇特的現象就是說我們有很多重要的會刊包括像那個改善部落環境部落道路還有聚會所的修繕那為什麼你們都沒有派同仁來呢"},{"start":18745.131,"end":18772.49,"text":"我跟委員報告我們是用適性的方式但最主要是因為我們的這個拆禮會有被刪除了百分之二十兩百多萬那我們希望則最重要的是一定要去看的我們在有時候你沒有到現場看你也不知道什麼是重要不重要但這也不怪你啦因為現在就是工程的會刊你們幾乎都沒有辦法派人因為你們的旅費被"},{"start":18774.611,"end":18794.707,"text":"刪掉很多啊所以這個部分齁我覺得這個隔空抓藥啦視訊什麼有時候很難因為有時候是因為現場風大造成的一些影響或者什麼樣原因到現場看還是最實際的嘛所以我是不贊同啦就是說"},{"start":18797.362,"end":18818.293,"text":"你用這樣的方式是很難去落實實際到現場會刊的那種意義確實我們在去年預算審查的時候我們某位立委同事說絕對會把預算刪減得很有感我告訴各位我們原住民真的很有感而且我們是很反感"},{"start":18819.053,"end":18838.493,"text":"因為山道這樣 我們真的急需修繕的這些不管是聚會所 或者是一些道路的修繕或者一些建設 原鄉部落的建設我想這些你們都沒有到部落去生活過 去看過 就不知道在立法院有這個職權 隨便大筆一揮"},{"start":18841.98,"end":18862.873,"text":"我們寫幾個數字 三幾個零是很容易的但是要看看人家在部落會造成什麼樣的影響我想我今天特別在這裡提出來也希望在未來真的我們有這個職權是選民賦予我們的我今天在這裡也是部落我們的族人一票一票投給我可以站在這邊"},{"start":18864.534,"end":18883.459,"text":"但是我們其他同仁不了解這個狀況那這樣子亂刪我很不認同啦所以我想那個主委我也希望你把這個狀況跟行政院做反應然後看看能夠怎麼樣來補救改善我們這樣的一個困境好 謝謝好 謝謝陳英委員的質詢"},{"start":18891.091,"end":18908.905,"text":"登記發言的委員除不在場者之外其餘據已發言完畢我們詢答到此結束翁曉林委員所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢以及剛剛未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週之內以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":18911.567,"end":18934.925,"text":"報告委員會本次會議僅進行法案條文宣讀現在請宣讀討論事項第一案至第二十案所列法條之條文同時請議事委員發放便當我們利用這個時間一併用餐那接下來是念法條的環節我們就請各部會主官不要耽誤大家辦公的時間可以先行離席"},{"start":18938.311,"end":18955.236,"text":"法名称委员赖世宝等提案委员徐宇珍等提案纪念日记节日实施法委员高金素美等提案委员牛许婷等提案台湾民众党党团提案委员杨琼英等提案委员林思敏等提案委员翁晓琳等提案委员叶远之等提案委员鲁明哲等提案委员张志伦等提案委员罗廷伟等提案"},{"start":18955.976,"end":18959.099,"text":"请不吝点赞 订阅 转发 打赏支持明镜与点点栏目"},{"start":18978.658,"end":19006.17,"text":"第一条委员赖世宝等提案委员吴立华等提案纪念日及节日之时是依本法之规定委员高金素美等提案委员林思敏等提案纪念日及节日之时是依本条例规定委员陈寅等提案为深化民主尊重与传承多元文化价值并确保国民放假恢复身心及自我发展之必要权利自民地一致之国家及文化节日国家及文化节日之时是依本条例之规定"},{"start":19006.65,"end":19022.671,"text":"委員劉許廷等提案委員魯明哲等提案委員張志倫等提案委員羅廷偉等提案為彰顯紀念日及節日之特殊意義並規定放假日期及舉行慶祝或紀念活動以紀念國家發展歷史傳承中華傳統民俗及促進多元文化發展特制定本條例"},{"start":19023.852,"end":19043.358,"text":"纪念日及节日之时是依本条例之规定委员陈玉珍等提案中华民国国定纪念日及节日之时是依本法之规定台湾民众党党团提案委员杨琼英等提案中华民国国定纪念日及节日之时是依本条例之规定委员许志杰等提案国定纪念日及节日之时是依本条例规定"},{"start":19043.918,"end":19064.816,"text":"委员郑天才等提案国家纪念日及节日之时是依本法之规定但其他法律另有规定者从其规定委员王洪威等提案国家纪念日及节日之时是依本法之规定委员徐玉珍等提案纪念日及节日之时是依本法之规定但每周正常工时逾40小时之失业单位其纪念日及节日之放假"},{"start":19065.296,"end":19090.887,"text":"劳动基准法另有规定者从其规定委员翁晓琳等提案为纪念民主发展尊重多元文化及传统民俗价值并保障国民休息及自我发展之权利明定全国一致之纪念日及节日委员叶元之等提案国定纪念日及民俗节日之时是依本条例规定委员林倩起等提案国家纪念日及节日之时是依本法之规定但其他法律另有规定者从其规定"},{"start":19091.627,"end":19104.66,"text":"委員洪孟楷等提案同委員翁小林等提案並著作文字修正第二條委員賴世寶等提案本法所稱主管機關在中央為內政部在池霞市為池霞市政府在縣市為縣市政府"},{"start":19105.95,"end":19123.552,"text":"委員高金素美等提案委員牛許廷等提案台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員楊瓊英等提案委員林思明等提案委員翁曉林等提案委員葉元志等提案委員許志傑等提案委員魯明哲等提案委員張志倫等提案委員羅廷偉等提案本條例之主管機關為內政部"},{"start":19125.074,"end":19140.487,"text":"委员陈寅等提案本条例所称主管机关为内政部委员武力华等提案委员陈玉珍等提案委员郑天才等提案委员王洪威等提案委员徐玉珍等提案委员林倩起等提案委员洪梦凯等提案本法制主管机关为内政部"},{"start":19141.67,"end":19163.873,"text":"第三条为赖世宝等提案纪念日如下一中华民国开国纪念日一月一日二国和平纪念日二月二十八日三国赋世纪念日三月十二日四反侵略日三月十四日五革命先烈纪念日三月二十九日六佛陀诞辰纪念日农历四月八日七解银纪念日七月十五日八孔子诞辰纪念日九月二十八日"},{"start":19164.734,"end":19188.656,"text":"9.国庆日10月10日10.中华民国台湾联合国日10月24日11.国父诞辰纪念日11月12日12.十二行宪纪念日12月25日委员高金素美等提案第三条纪念日之名成几日起如下1.元旦1月1日2.全国客家日农历1月20日3.和平纪念日2月28日4.孙文诗式纪念日3月12日5.言论自由日4月7日"},{"start":19190.417,"end":19207.413,"text":"6.环境日6月5日7.检验纪念日7月15日8.原住民族日8月1日9.中战纪念日8月15日10.国庆日10月10日11.国际移民日12月18日委员武力华等提案国家纪念日证明称几日起如下1.元旦1月1日2.全国客家日农历1月20日"},{"start":19208.334,"end":19229.714,"text":"三 世界母女日 2月21日四 和平纪念日 2月28日五 言论自由日 4月7日六 劳动权益日 5月1日七 环境日 6月5日八 解严纪念日 7月15日九 原住民族日 8月1日十 国庆日 10月10日十一 台湾女权日 11月30日十二 世界人权日 12月10日十三 国际移民日 12月18日"},{"start":19231.736,"end":19249.758,"text":"委员刘许婷等提案委员张志伦等提案委员罗廷伟等提案第三条纪念日之名成几日起如下一中华民国开国纪念日一月一日二和平纪念日二月二十八日三国赋试纪念日三月十二日四革命先烈纪念日三月二十九日五言论自由日四月七日六解业纪念日七月十五日"},{"start":19250.599,"end":19265.938,"text":"7.原住民族日8月1日8.中战纪念日8月15日9.国家防灾日9月21日10.孔子诞辰纪念日9月28日11.国庆日10月10日12.联合国日10月24日13.台湾光复纪念日10月25日14.国父诞辰纪念日11月12日"},{"start":19267.159,"end":19294.607,"text":"十五行宪纪念日十二月二十五日委员陈玉珍等提案第三条本法制纪念日如下一中华民国开国纪念日一月一日二和平纪念日二月二十八日三国父逝世纪念日三月十二日四革命先烈纪念日三月二十九日五佛陀诞辰纪念日农历四月八日六解严纪念日七月十五日七八二三纪念日八月二十三日八孔子诞辰纪念日九月二十八日九国庆日十月十日十国父诞辰纪念日十一月十二日"},{"start":19295.727,"end":19321.959,"text":"11.行宪纪念日12月25日台湾民众党党团提案第三条纪念日如下1.中华民国开国纪念日1月1日2.全国客家日农历1月20日3.和平纪念日2月28日4.国父事实纪念日3月12日5.反侵略日3月14日6.革命先烈纪念日3月29日7.言论自由日4月7日8.佛陀诞辰纪念日农历4月8日9.节言纪念日7月15日8.原住民族日8月1日"},{"start":19323.678,"end":19352.125,"text":"十一孔子诞辰纪念日九月二十八日十二国庆日十月十日十三台湾联合国日十月二十四日十四国父诞辰纪念日十一月十二日十五国际移民日十二月十八日十六行性纪念日十二月二十五日委员郑天才等提案第三条国家纪念日证明称及日期如下一中华民国开国纪念日一月一日二和平纪念日二月二十八日三反侵略日三月十四日四革命先烈纪念日三月二十九日五佛陀诞辰纪念日农历四月八日"},{"start":19353.005,"end":19379.828,"text":"6.解延纪念日7月15日7.援助民族纪念日8月1日8.孔子诞辰纪念日9月28日9.国庆日10月10日10.台湾联合国日10月24日11.国父诞辰纪念日11月12日12.行宪纪念日12月25日13.民族平等纪念日由政府征许援助民族明定日期委员王洪威等提案第一项第一款至第六款第八款至第十二款同委员郑天才等提案并着作文字修整"},{"start":19380.768,"end":19398.264,"text":"第七款为七八二三纪念日八月二十三日第二项为国父逝世纪念日在三月十二日植树节举行委员徐玉珍等提案第三条纪念日之名称及日期如下一中华民国开国纪念日一月一日二和平纪念日二月二十八日三国父逝世纪念日三月十二日"},{"start":19398.724,"end":19416.393,"text":"四反侵略日3月14日五革命先烈纪念日3月29日六佛陀诞辰纪念日农历4月8日七抗战纪念日7月7日八解严纪念日7月15日九孔子诞辰纪念日9月28日十国庆日10月10日十一台湾联合国日10月24日十二台湾光复纪念日10月25日"},{"start":19417.794,"end":19438.1,"text":"十三国赋诞产纪念日十一月十二日十四行限纪念日十二月二十五日委员杨琼云等提案第三条纪念日如下一中华民国开国纪念日一月一日二全国客家日农历一月二十日三和平纪念日二月二十八日四国赋试纪念日三月十二日五言论自由日四月七日六解研纪念日七月十五日七元驻民族日八月一日"},{"start":19438.94,"end":19456.53,"text":"8.中战纪念日8月15日9.国家防灾日9月21日10.孔子弹厂纪念日9月28日11.国庆日10月10日12.台湾联合国日10月24日13.台湾关户纪念日10月25日14.国库弹厂纪念日11月12日15.国际移民日12月18日16.行进纪念日12月25日"},{"start":19458.271,"end":19476.423,"text":"委員林思明等提案第一項第十三款為十三台灣光復紀念日十月二十五日第十六款為十六全國客家日十二月二十八日其餘同委員鄭天才等提案第二項同委員王宏威等提案第二項委員翁曉林等提案第三條紀念日之名稱及日期如下"},{"start":19476.863,"end":19492.98,"text":"一中华民国开国纪念日1月1日二全国客家日农历1月20日三和平纪念日2月28日四革命先烈纪念日3月29日五国父逝世纪念日3月12日六佛陀诞辰纪念日农历4月8日七解延纪念日7月15日八元祝民族日8月1日"},{"start":19493.641,"end":19517.457,"text":"九八二三纪念日八月二十三日十孔子诞辰纪念日九月二十八日十一国庆日十月十日十二台湾光复纪念日十月二十五日十三国赋诞辰纪念日十一月十二日十四行宪纪念日十二月二十五日委员叶炎之等提案第一项删除第三款第七款及第十二款其余同委员徐玉珍等提案第二项同委员王洪威等提案第二项"},{"start":19518.297,"end":19537.532,"text":"委员林庆起等提案第十三款修正为十三民族平等纪念日三月二十一日其余同委员郑天才等提案委员许志杰等提案第三条国定纪念日之名称计日期如下一元诞一月一日二和平纪念日二月二十八日三革命先烈纪念日三月二十九日四佛陀诞辰纪念日农历四月八日"},{"start":19538.232,"end":19559.173,"text":"5.解研纪念日7月15日6.言论自由日4月7日7.原住民族日8月1日8.国庆日10月10日9.国父诞辰纪念日11月12日10.国家棒球日11月24日11.国际移民日12月18日12.全国客家日12月28日13.行宪纪念日12月25日国父试试纪念日在3月12日指数节举行"},{"start":19560.374,"end":19584.044,"text":"委員魯明哲等提案第二款為全國客家日農曆一月二十日增加第五款五革命先烈紀念日三月二十九日刪除第十五款其餘同委員楊瓊英等提案並調整款次委員洪孟凱等提案第三條國定假日之名稱及日期如下一中華民國開國紀念日一月一日二除夕農曆十二月之末日"},{"start":19584.464,"end":19613.626,"text":"三春节农历一月一日至一月三日四和平纪念日二月二十八日五儿童节四月四日六清明节四月五日或前后一日七言论自由日四月七日八劳动节五月一日九端午节农历五月五日十解研纪念日七月十五日十一原住民族日八月一日十二中秋节农历八月十五日十三国民体育日九月九日十四国家房债日九月二十一日十五孔子诞辰纪念日九月二十八日十六国庆日十月十日"},{"start":19614.306,"end":19637.029,"text":"十七行限紀念日十二月二十五日前項鎖定國定假日為放假日但兒童節與親民節為同一日時由主管機關依第五條規定公告調整兒童節放假之日除第一項規定外為尊重原住民族碎石記憶舉行之必要各原住民族部落得責定碎石記憶三日為放假日於前一年十月三四一日前報請主管機關公告之"},{"start":19640.816,"end":19659.466,"text":"委員高金素梅等提案第四條前條所列紀念日放假以下列規定辦理一元旦放假一日二全國客家日放假一日三和平紀念日放假一日四元住民族日放假一日五國慶日放假一日六國紀念日放假一日前項以外至紀念日均不放假"},{"start":19661.345,"end":19679.925,"text":"委员吴丽华等提案第四条前条所列之国定假日纪念日放假以下列规定办理一元旦放假一日二全国客家日放假一日和平纪念日三和平纪念日放假一日四劳动权一日放假一日五原住民族日放假一日六国亲日放假一日七国亲移民日放假一日"},{"start":19680.706,"end":19708.727,"text":"委员刘许婷等提案第四条委员张志伦等提案第四条下列纪念日均放假一日其余均不放假一中华民国开国纪念日二和平纪念日三解严纪念日四原住民族日五国家防灾日六孔子诞辰纪念日七国庆日八行宪纪念日委员徐玉珍等提案第四条下列纪念日均放假一日其余均不放假一中华民国开国纪念日二和平纪念日三国庆日四台湾光复纪念日五行宪纪念日"},{"start":19709.648,"end":19738.206,"text":"委員楊瓊英等提案第四條前條所列紀念日放假以下列規定辦理一中華民國開國紀念日二全國客家日三和平紀念日四原住民族日五國慶日前下以外之紀念日均不放假委員林思敏等提案第四條前條以下紀念日均放假一日一中華民國開國紀念日二和平紀念日三國慶日四臺灣光復紀念日五行縣紀念日其他紀念日之紀念活動與方式由中央及地方政府分別明定"},{"start":19739.207,"end":19752.76,"text":"委员翁晓琳等提案第四条下列纪念日时是放假一中华民国开国纪念日放假一日二和平纪念日放假一日三国庆日放假一日四台湾光复纪念日放假一日五行宪纪念日放假一日"},{"start":19753.888,"end":19769.298,"text":"委員賴世保等提案第四條前條各紀念日期紀念方式如下依中華民國開國紀念日國慶日行限紀念日全國應懸掛國旗中央及地方政府分別舉行紀念活動各機關團體學校亦得分別舉行紀念活動放假一日"},{"start":19770.218,"end":19775.723,"text":"2.和平纪念日全国的巡挂国旗有有关机关团体举行纪念活动放假一日3."},{"start":19775.723,"end":19780.908,"text":"国父逝世纪念日全国的巡挂国旗在植树节植树纪念4."},{"start":19780.908,"end":19788.815,"text":"反侵略日且解研纪念日中华民国台湾联合国日全国的巡挂国旗有关机关团体得分别举行纪念活动5."},{"start":19788.815,"end":19789.816,"text":"革命先烈纪念日"},{"start":19790.416,"end":19808.587,"text":"全国得选挂国旗中央及地方政府分别春季国殇六佛陀诞辰纪念日有有关机关团体举行纪念活动七夏列个纪念日中央及地方政府分别举行纪念活动各机关团体学校亦得分别举行纪念活动一孔子诞辰纪念日二国父纪念日诞辰纪念日"},{"start":19809.548,"end":19836.358,"text":"委員明旭廷等提案第七條委員徐宇貞等提案第七條委員魯明哲等提案第七條委員張志倫等提案第七條紀念日中央及地方政府應懸掛國旗並依下列規定辦理一中華民國開國紀念日孔子誕辰紀念日及國慶日舉行紀念活動二革命先烈紀念日舉行春季國殤三其他紀念日得依其性質舉行紀念活動各機關團體及學校得依紀念日及節日之性質舉行"},{"start":19837.418,"end":19865.608,"text":"纪念庆祝或民俗等相关活动委员陈玉珍等提案第四条前条各纪念日全国悬挂国旗其纪念方式如下一中华民国开国纪念日国庆日行宪纪念日中央及地方政府分别举行纪念活动各机关团体学校亦得分别举行纪念活动放假一日二和平纪念日八二三纪念日有有关机关团体举行纪念活动放假一日三国赋试纪念日在三月十二日植树节植树纪念"},{"start":19866.688,"end":19886.364,"text":"4.解研纪念日,有有关机关团体举行纪念活动5.革命先烈纪念日,中央及地方政府分别春季国殇6.佛陀诞辰纪念日,有有关机关团体举行纪念活动7.夏列哥纪念日,中央及地方政府分别举行纪念活动,各机关团体学校议的分别举行纪念活动1.孔子诞辰纪念日,2.国父诞辰纪念日"},{"start":19887.225,"end":19907.097,"text":"台湾民众党党团提案第四条,续文修正为前条各纪念日放假以下列规定办理,第一至第四款前段删除全国悬挂国旗等文字,第七款增加第三幕三行线纪念日,其余同委员赖世保等提案第四条,委员郑天才等提案第四条,委员林倩琪等提案第四条。"},{"start":19908.158,"end":19936.757,"text":"请调各纪念日全国悬挂国旗其纪念方式如下一中华民国开国纪念日国庆日中央及地方政府分别举行纪念活动各机关团体学校亦得分别举行纪念活动放假一日二和平纪念日由有关机关团体举行纪念活动放假一日三国父师事纪念日在植树节植树纪念四反侵略日佛头诞辰纪念日解研纪念日援助民族纪念日台湾联合国日由有关机关团体举行纪念活动五革命先烈纪念日中央及地方政府分别春季国殇"},{"start":19937.857,"end":19947.328,"text":"6 夏孽各纪念日中央及地方政府分别举行纪念活动各机关团体学校亦得分别举行纪念活动1 孔子诞辰纪念日2 古夫诞辰纪念日3 行县纪念日"},{"start":19954.04,"end":19981.821,"text":"7.民族平等纪念日由有关机关团体举行纪念活动放假一日委员王洪威等提案第四条第一款至第三款及第五款同委员郑天才等提案第四条之第一款至第三款及第五款第四款为4.反侵略日节约纪念日台湾联合国日由有关机关团体举行纪念活动第六款为6.佛陀诞辰纪念日由有关机关团体举行纪念活动第七款同委员郑天才等提案第四条之第七款"},{"start":19982.762,"end":20011.843,"text":"委員葉延之等提案第四條第一項同源王宏偉等提案第四條第二項為下列紀念日均放假一日其餘均不放假一中華民國開國紀念日二和平紀念日三國慶日委員許志傑等提案第四條前條各紀念日除本條第一款規定全國懸掛國旗其他紀念方式如下一元旦和平紀念日國慶日中央及地方政府分別舉行紀念活動各機關團體學校藝德分別舉行紀念活動放假一日"},{"start":20012.663,"end":20035.791,"text":"2.国父逝世纪念日,在植树节植树纪念。3.佛陀诞辰纪念日,解缘纪念日,国父诞辰纪念日,由有关机关团体举行纪念活动。4.革命先烈纪念日,中央及地方政府分别春季国殇。5.言论自由日,原住民族日,国家棒球日,国际移民日,全国客家日,行先纪念日,由中央及地方政府分别举行纪念活动。各机关团体学校亦得分别举行纪念活动。"},{"start":20036.451,"end":20061.348,"text":"委员罗廷伟等提案第四条前条各纪念日全国悬挂国旗其纪念方式如下一中华民国开国纪念日国庆日孔子诞辰纪念日台湾光复纪念日行宪纪念日中央及地方政府分别举行纪念活动各机关团体学校亦得分别举行纪念活动放假一日二和平纪念日有有关机关团体举行纪念活动放假一日三国父师是纪念日在植树节植树纪念四反七六月日节言纪念日"},{"start":20062.438,"end":20084.746,"text":"金门823炮战纪念日,台湾联合国日,有有关机关团体举行纪念活动。五,革命先烈纪念日,中央及地方政府分别春季国殇。六,佛陀诞辰纪念日,有有关机关团体举行纪念活动。七,国父诞辰纪念日,原住民族日,国家放球日,全国客家日,国家防灾日,由中央及地方政府分别举行纪念活动。各机关团体、学校、义德分别举行纪念活动。"},{"start":20085.606,"end":20101.808,"text":"五元高金素美等提案第五条节日之名称及日期如下一民俗节日一春节农历一月一日二元宵节农历一月十五日三清明节定于清明日四端午节农历五月五日五中秋节农历八月十五日六重阳敬老节农历九月九日"},{"start":20102.629,"end":20129.612,"text":"7.除夕农历12月至末日8.援助民族税时计议由各援助民族部落自行责定报请主管机关公告之9.其他民族及宗教税时计议由各民族及宗教群体自行责定报请各该主管机关公告之2.消防节1月19日3.农民节历春日4.妇女节3月8日5.国际医师节3月30日6.儿童节4月4日7.世界地球日4月22日8.劳动节5月1日9.国际护士节"},{"start":20130.593,"end":20140.286,"text":"5月12日是母亲节5月第二个周日是一警察节6月15日是父亲节8月8日是三祖父母节8月第四个周日14军人节9月3日15教师节9月28日"},{"start":20143.717,"end":20171.853,"text":"委员陈寅等提案第三条国家纪文化节日之名称与日期如下一元旦一月一日二出兴农历十二月之末日三春节农历正月初一至初三四和平纪念日二月十八日五儿童节四月四日五六清明节四月五日或前后一日七端午节农历五月五日八元祝民族日八月一日九中秋节农历八月十五日十国庆日十月十日前向锁定国家纪文化节日为全国放假日"},{"start":20174.5,"end":20197.972,"text":"委员吴丽华等提案第五条第一款第三幕为清明节四月五日或前后一日第三款为农民节农民历至历春日第八款至第十七款分别为八国际护理师节五月十二日九母亲节五月第二个周日是国家海洋日六月八日十一警察节六月十五日十二旷工日七一月十日"},{"start":20198.832,"end":20228.24,"text":"十三父亲节八月八日十四国际青年日八月十二日十五祖父母节八月第四个周日十六军人节九月三日十七教师节九月二十八日其余同委员高金素美等提案第五条委员刘许婷等提案第五条委员鲁明哲等提案第五条委员张志伦等提案第五条节日之名称其日期如下一明暑节日一春节农历一月一日二元宵节农历一月十五日三清明节定于清明日四端午节农历五月五日五中元节农历七月十五日六"},{"start":20228.801,"end":20234.301,"text":"中秋節農曆八月十五日七床牙節農曆九月九日八除夕農曆十二月之末日"},{"start":20235.906,"end":20264.73,"text":"9.原住民族遂时祭仪各该原住民族放假日期有原住民族委员会参着各该原住民族习俗及征询各该原住民族部落意见后公告并刊登政府公报2.消防节1月19日3.农民节定于立春日4.妇女节3月8日5.植树节3月12日6.青年节3月29日7.儿童节4月4日8.劳动节5月1日9.母亲节5月2个星期日10.环境日6月5日11.国家海洋日6月8日"},{"start":20265.83,"end":20291.89,"text":"12.警察节6月15日13.父亲节8月8日14.祖父母节8月第4个星期日15.军人节9月3日16.教师节9月28日17.台湾光复节10月25日18.中华文化复兴节11月12日19.身心障碍者日12月3日20.人权日12月10日21.移民日12月18日22.全国客家日由客家委员会订定后公告并刊登政府公报"},{"start":20292.97,"end":20316.592,"text":"委员需预争等提案第五条节日之名称及日期如下一民俗节日一春节农历一月一日二清明节定于清明日三端午节农历五月五日四中秋节农历八月十五日五除夕农历十二月至末日六原住民族岁时记忆各该原住民族放假日期有原住民族委员会参佐各该原住民族习俗及征询各该原住民族部落意见后公告并刊登政府公报"},{"start":20317.711,"end":20333.509,"text":"二 道教节 农历一月一日三 妇女节 三月八日四 青年节 三月二十九日五 儿童节 四月四日六 劳动节 五月一日七 军人节 九月三日八 教师节 九月二十八日九 中华文化复兴节 十一月十二日委员业员之等提案第五条"},{"start":20334.17,"end":20338.395,"text":"6端午节农历5月5日7劳动节5月1日8军人节9月3日9中秋节农历8月15日10教师节"},{"start":20353.012,"end":20381.558,"text":"九月二十八日十一台湾光复节十月二十五日十二中华文化复兴节十一月十二日十三农历除夕农历十二月之末日十四援助民族岁时计以各该援助民族放假日期由援助民族委员会参着各该援助民族习俗公告并刊登政府公报委员赖世宝等提案第五条委员林思敏等提案第五条下令民俗节日除春节放假四日外其余均放假一日"},{"start":20382.659,"end":20396.312,"text":"一春节二民族扫墓节三端午节四中秋节五农历除夕六原住民族岁时基于各干原住民族放假日起有行政院原住民族委员会参着各干原住民族习俗公告并刊登政府公报"},{"start":20397.318,"end":20419.67,"text":"委员高金素美等提案第六条前条所列节日放假一下列规定办理一春节自农历一月一日至一月三日放假三日二儿童节放假一日三七明节放假一日四端午节放假一日五中秋节放假一日六除夕放假一日七元住民族碎石记忆其他民族及宗教碎石记忆凡居中华民国国籍或居留资格者每年得一"},{"start":20420.43,"end":20447.544,"text":"按前条第一项第八款第九款公告之原住民族税时即以其他民族及宗教税时即以则定三日放假之八劳动节适用劳动基准法之劳工放假一日九消防节一主管机关规定十警察节一主管机关规定十一军人节一主管机关规定前上儿童节与清明节同一日时于前一日放假但逢星期四时于后一日放假本条第一项以外之节日均不放假"},{"start":20448.504,"end":20468.792,"text":"委员陈寅等提案第四条,除前条规定外,其他节日之放假,依下列规定办理,依消防节1月19日,2.劳动节5月1日,3.警察节6月15日,4.军人节9月3日,除前项规定放假节日以外,基于尊重与传承多元文化价值,原住民每年应有3日之碎时计一放假日。"},{"start":20469.392,"end":20489.965,"text":"第一项第一款及第三款依内政部规定放假第一项第二款适用劳动基准法治劳工放假一日第一项第四款依国防部规定放假委员陈寅等提案第五条为尊重原住民族碎石记忆举行之必要由各原住民族部落自主责定碎石记忆节日三日为放假日并报请主管机关公告之"},{"start":20490.805,"end":20508.041,"text":"委员武力华等提案第六条第一项第一款至第七款同委员高精素美等提案第六条第一项至第一款至第七款第八款第九款为八消防结一主管机关规定九军人结一主管机关规定第二项同委员高精素美等提案第六条第二项"},{"start":20509.002,"end":20525.838,"text":"五人有许停等提案第六条文章制轮等提案第六条第一项为前条所列节日之放假以下列规定办理一除夕季春节自农历十二月末日之前日至一年一月三日放假五日二儿童节清明节端午节中秋节重阳节均放假一日"},{"start":20526.278,"end":20546.975,"text":"三原住民族税时计以由原住民依其族别税时计以责定三日放假四劳动节适用劳动基准法治劳工放假一日五消防节及警察节一主管规定机关规定放假六军援解一国防部规定放假第二项第三项同委员高金素美等提案第六条第二项第三项并着作文字修正"},{"start":20547.876,"end":20577.117,"text":"委员陈韵珍等提案第五条序文之春节放假日期修正为三日其余同委员赖世宝等提案第五条并调整款次台湾民众党党团提案第五条第一款之第五款修正为一春节农历一月一日二民族扫墓节四月五日三端午节农历五月五日四中秋节农历八月十五日五农历除夕农历十二月三十一日其余同委员赖世宝等提案第五条委员郑天才等提案第五条委员林倩琦等提案第五条"},{"start":20577.777,"end":20595.835,"text":"夏令民俗节日除春节及原住民族岁时计以至少放假三日外其余均放假一日一七明节二端午节三中秋节四农历除夕五原住民族岁时计以各该原住民族放假日期及日数由原住民族委员会参着各该原住民族习俗公告并刊登政府公报"},{"start":20596.696,"end":20613.451,"text":"委員王宏威等提案第五條委員羅廷偉等提案第五條序文之春節放假日期修正為三日其餘同委員賴世寶等提案第五條委員徐玉珍等提案第六條節日之放假亦下列規定辦理依春節自農曆一月一日至一月三日放假三日"},{"start":20614.171,"end":20632.88,"text":"儿童节清明节端午节中秋节除夕均放假一日三元住民族岁时及以各该元住民族放假一日四劳动节放假一日五军人节以国防部规定放假前向以外之节日均不放假儿童节与清明节同一日时与前一日放假但逢星期四时与后一日放假"},{"start":20633.76,"end":20648.147,"text":"委員楊秋英等提案第五條下列民俗節日除春節放假四日外其餘均放假一日一春節農曆一月一日至一月四日二清明節定於清明日三端午節農曆五月五日四中秋節農曆八月十五日五農曆除夕"},{"start":20649.528,"end":20677.966,"text":"农历十二月之末日六原住民族岁时计以各该原住民族放假日期由行政院原住民族委员会参着各该原住民族习俗公告并刊登政府公报委员翁晓琳等提案第五条下列为民俗节日除春节放假三日外其余均放假一日依农历除夕二春节三清明节四端午节五中秋节六原住民族岁时计以其日期由原住民族委员会参着各该原住民族习俗公告并刊登政府公报"},{"start":20678.826,"end":20704.242,"text":"委员许致节等提案第五条下例民俗节日除春节放假三日外其余均放假一日一春节稻窖节农历一月一日二元宵节农历一月十五日三民族扫墓节定于清明日四端午节农历五月五日五中秋节农历八月十五日六除夕农历十二月之末日七原住民族岁时基于放假日期由各原住民族部落自行责定报请主管机关公告之"},{"start":20705.143,"end":20710.293,"text":"委員魯明哲等提案第6條同委員劉旭廷等提案第6條第一項第二項"},{"start":20712.349,"end":20735.331,"text":"委员赖世宝等提案第六条下列节日由有关机关团体学校举行庆祝活动一道教节农历一月一日二妇女节三月八日三青年节三月二十九日四儿童节四月四日五劳动节五月一日六军人节九月三日七教师节九月二十八日八台湾光复节十月二十五日九中华文化复兴节十一月十二日十一夜蛋节十二月二十五日"},{"start":20736.112,"end":20755.841,"text":"前项节日按下列规定放假一儿童节放假一日儿童节与民族扫墓节同一日时于前一日放假但逢星期四时于后一日放假二劳动节劳工放假三军人节依国防部规定放假委员陈一针等提案第六条第一项删除第十款其余同委员赖世保等提案第六条"},{"start":20756.621,"end":20782.522,"text":"台湾民众党党团提案第六条第一项同委员赖世保等提案第六条第一项第二项为前项节日按下列规定放假一儿童节放假一日二劳动节放假一日三军人节一国防部规定放假四教师节放假一日委员郑天才等提案第六条第一项第一款第二款同委员赖世保等提案第六条第一项第一款第二款第三款为三植树节三月十二日"},{"start":20783.243,"end":20805.836,"text":"第四款至第九款同委员赖世宝等提案第六条第一项第三款至第八款第十款为十圣诞节十二月二十五日第二项同委员赖世宝等提案第六条第二项委员王洪威等提案第六条委员杨琼英等提案第六条第一项删除第十款第二项增加第四款四教师节放假一日其余同委员赖世宝等提案第六条"},{"start":20806.696,"end":20832.896,"text":"五元零私民等提案第六条下列节日相关机关团体学校举行庆祝活动一道教节农历一月一日二妇女节三月八日三青年节三月二十九日四儿童节四月四日五劳动节五月一日六军人节九月三日七中华文化复兴节十一月十二日前向节日按下列规定放假一儿童节放假一日二劳动节适用劳动基准法治劳工放假一日三军人节一国防部规定放假"},{"start":20833.576,"end":20852.652,"text":"委员翁晓琳等提案第六条下列节日有有关机关团体学校举行举行庆祝活动一道教节农历一月一日二妇女节三月八日三青年节三月二十九日四儿童节四月四日五劳动节五月一日六母亲节五月第二个周日七父亲节八月八日八祖父母节八月第四个周日九军人节"},{"start":20854.182,"end":20877.202,"text":"9月3日十教师节9月28日十一中华文化复兴节11月12日前假儿童节劳动节教师节及军人节按下列规定放假一儿童节放假一日儿童节与民族扫墓节同一日时与前一日放假但逢星期四时与后一日放假二劳动节劳工放假一日三教师节放假一日依教育部规定办理四军人节放假一日依国防部规定办理"},{"start":20877.762,"end":20893.974,"text":"委員業員制等提案第六條下列節日由有關機關團體學校舉行慶祝活動一道教節二婦女節三青年節四兒童節五勞動節六居然節七教師節八台灣光復節九中華文化復興節前條節日按下列規定放假"},{"start":20894.454,"end":20921.497,"text":"一春节放假三日二儿童节放假一日儿童节与民族扫墓节同一日时与前一日放假但逢星期四时与后一日放假三民族扫墓节四端午节放假一日五劳动节放假一日六军人节一国防部规定放假七中秋节放假一日八台湾光复节放假一日九农历除夕放假一日十原住民族碎石基以各该原住民族放假日期由原住民族委员会参佐各该原住民族习俗公告并刊登政府公报"},{"start":20923.274,"end":20949.843,"text":"委員林倩琦等提案第六條同委員鄭天才等提案第六條並著作文字修正委員許志傑等提案第六條下列節任由有關機關團體及學校舉行慶祝活動一校放節一月十九日二農民節逆春日三婦女節三月八日四兒童節四月四日五勞動節五月一日六母親節五月第二個週日七警察節六月十五日八父親節八月八日九居認節九月三日十教師節九月二十八日"},{"start":20950.563,"end":20973.47,"text":"前三节节日按下列规定放假一儿童节放假一日儿童节与民主扫墓节同一日始于前一日放假但逢星期四始于后一日放假二劳动节放假一日三军人节一国防部规定放假委员罗厅委等提案第六条下列节日由有关机关团体学校举行庆祝活动一道教节农历一月一日二消防节一月十九日"},{"start":20974.19,"end":20989.842,"text":"三 妇女节3月8日四 青年节3月29日五 儿童节4月4日六 劳动节5月1日七 警察节6月15日八 军人节9月3日九 教师节9月28日十 中华文化复兴节11月12日前将节日"},{"start":20990.936,"end":21007.573,"text":"按下列规定放假一儿童节放假一日儿童节与民族扫墓节同一日是于前日放假但逢星期四是于后一日放假二劳动节劳工放假三军人节一国防部规定放假四消防节一主管机关规定放假五警察节一主管机关规定放假"},{"start":21008.971,"end":21023.724,"text":"委员赖世保等提案第七条台湾民众党党团提案第七条委员郑天才等提案第七条委员杨琼英等提案第七条委员林思敏等提案第七条委员叶元之等提案第七条委员林倩琦等提案第七条委员罗廷伟等提案第七条"},{"start":21024.685,"end":21038.857,"text":"今年日即节日之放假日逢历假日应于补假历假日为星期六者于前一个上班日补假为星期日者于次一个上班日补假但农历除夕及春节放假日逢历假日均于次一个上班日补假"},{"start":21039.838,"end":21060.487,"text":"委員高經宿美等提案第七條紀念日即節日之放假逢例假日應補為連假上班日為星期一或星期五其後一日或前一日逢星期二或星期四之除夕及春節連假清明節端午節中秋節之放假調整該上班日為放假日前向上班日調整為放假日依下列規定補行上班"},{"start":21061.127,"end":21081.27,"text":"一除夕及春节廉价不需补行上班二清明节端午节中秋节一逢星期二者于节日当周之星期六补行上班二逢星期四者于节日前一周之星期六补行上班但清明节于节日后一周之星期六补行上班前向调整放假及补行上班日期由主管机关于前一年六月底前"},{"start":21082.031,"end":21106.502,"text":"调疑并公告之委员陈寅等提案第六条国家纪文化节日逢周休二日者应于补假补假之时是日期及其他应遵循事项之办法由主管机关定之委员武力华等提案第七条同委员高金素美等提案并着作文字修正委员牛许婷等提案第八条委员鲁明哲等提案第八条委员张志伦等提案第八条"},{"start":21107.282,"end":21130.259,"text":"纪念日即节日之放假日逢历假日者应日补假历假日为星期六者于前一个上班日补假为星期日者于次一个上班日补假但除夕即春节放假日逢历假日均于次一个上班日补假上班日为星期一或星期五其后一日或前一日逢星期二或星期四之除夕即春节连假清明节端午节中秋节重阳节之放假"},{"start":21130.939,"end":21158.85,"text":"调整该上班日为放假日除戏集春节假期清明节端午节中秋节重阳节如逢星期二或星期四其前后一日上班日调整放假请向调整放假除戏集春节假期外应依下列规定补习上班一逢星期二者于节日当周至星期六补行上班二逢星期四者于节日前一周至星期六补行上班但清明节于节日后一周至星期六补行上班"},{"start":21160.01,"end":21187.52,"text":"前二项调整放假及补行上班日期由主管机关于前一年六月底前调移并公告之委员陈玉珍等提案第七条纪念日及节日至放假日适逢星期六星期日应与工作日补假例假日为星期六者于前一个上班日补假为星期日者于次一个上班日补假农历除夕及春节放假日得由主管机关会同行政院人士行政总处谈性调整并致辞于三个月前公告之"},{"start":21188.24,"end":21207.578,"text":"台湾民众党党团提案第八条上班日为星期一或星期五其后一日或前一日为星期二或星期四之第四条至第六条所称休假日调整该上班日为休假日前向弹性放假中央主管机关得定一日补行上班其日期于前一年六月底公告之"},{"start":21208.399,"end":21224.237,"text":"委員王宏威等提案第七條第一項同委員賴氏寶等提案第七條增加第二項為因應連續假期所為之上班日調整以國家紀念日之假期不補刑上班民宿節日節日之假期均於前一個星期六補刑上班"},{"start":21224.918,"end":21244.554,"text":"委員徐玉珍等提案第八條同委員陳玉珍等提案第七條並著作文字修正委員楊瓊英等提案第八條第一項同台灣民眾黨黨團提議議案第八條第一項第二項為前項談刑放假及補刑上班日期由主管機關於前一年六月底公告之委員林思敏等提案第八條委員羅廷偉等提案第八條"},{"start":21245.495,"end":21264.611,"text":"农历除夕、春节、民族扫面节、端午节、中秋节若为星期二或星期四其前后一日至上班日调整为放假日除农历除夕及春节无需补行上班外前向调整后至放假日及补行上班日期中央主管机关应于前一年6月底公告之委员翁晓琳等听案第七条"},{"start":21265.131,"end":21292.846,"text":"纪念日及节日之放假日逢历假日休息日应予补假主管机关得调整假日前一日或后一日之工作日为放假日并另补行上班农历除夕前一日为上班者调整该上班日为放假日因应春节连续假期所为之上班日调整除特殊情形者外以提前于前一周之星期六补行上班为原则前二项调整放假与补行上班日由主管机关于六个月前公告之"},{"start":21293.706,"end":21308.761,"text":"委员许志杰等提案第七条第一项同委员赖世保等提案第七条第二项为因应连续假期所为之上半日调整一国家纪念日之假期不补行上班民俗节日节日之假期拘于前一个星期六补行上班"},{"start":21310.27,"end":21324.486,"text":"委员侯梦凯等提案第四条第一项续文之纪念日及节日文字修正为国定假日第五项后段修正为由主管机关于前一年10月31日前调疑并公告之其余同委刘续廷等提案第八条"},{"start":21325.327,"end":21352.629,"text":"委員高經宿美等提案第8條本條例第4條第6條及前條放假日之掉以情形特殊者得以下列規定辦理依交通運輸警察消防海岸巡防醫療官務矯正等全年無休實施輪班輪休制度之政府機關或機構由目的事業主管機關掉以之二簽款以外為民服務之政府機關或機構學校在不影響為民服務之原則下由目的事業主管機關是實際需要"},{"start":21353.65,"end":21373.76,"text":"是实际业务需要调一支三军事机关基于国防安全考量及应战备之需要有目的事业主管器官是实际需要调一支四事业单位应经营需要由劳资双方协调调一支委员武力华等提案第八条第一款前段删除警察文字其余同委员高精素美等提案第八条"},{"start":21374.44,"end":21397.057,"text":"委員牛許廷等提案第9條委員洪孟楷等提案第5條委員張志倫等提案第9條同委員高金素美等提案第8條並著作文字修正委員高金素美等提案第9條駐外使領館代表處辦事處外交部授權機構及其他政府機關駐外機構紀念日及節日之放假依外交部或行政院大陸委員會之規定辦理"},{"start":21397.737,"end":21415.304,"text":"委员刘许婷等提案第十条委员洪梦凯等提案第六条委员张志伦等提案第四条同委员高金素梅等提案第九条并着作文字修正委员陈英等提案第七条凡落实原住民族碎石记忆价值公民营事业单位应申领奖励补助"},{"start":21416.184,"end":21431.625,"text":"委员赖世宝等提案第八条台湾民众党党团提案第九条委员郑天才等提案第八条委员王宏威等提案第八条委员杨琼英等提案第九条委员林思敏等提案第九条委员林倩琦等提案第八条委员罗廷伟等提案第九条"},{"start":21432.796,"end":21456.43,"text":"第三条第五条及第六条规定纪念日及节日以外具特殊意义有庆祝或举办活动必要之日得由目的事业主管机关会商有关机关定定实施之委员高金素美等听案第十条除本条例第三条及第五条规定外具特殊意义有庆祝或纪念必要之日得由目的事业主管机关会商有关机关定定实施之"},{"start":21457.29,"end":21477.592,"text":"委员武力华等提案第九条同委员高金素美等提案第十条并着作文字修整委员牛许婷等提案第十一条委员张志伦等提案第十一条第三条及第五条规定以外具特殊意义有庆祝或举办活动必要之日得由目的事业主管机关会商有关机关以办法定之"},{"start":21478.453,"end":21507.561,"text":"委员陈玉珍等提案第8条委员徐玉珍等提案第9条同委员赖世保等提案第8条并着作文字修正委员翁晓琳等提案第8条同委员牛许婷等提案第11条并着作文字修正委员叶元之等提案第8条前段修正为第4条及第6条规定其余同委员赖世保等提案第8条委员许志杰等提案第8条前段修正为除本条例第4条至第6条规定外其余同委员赖世保等提案第8条"},{"start":21510.834,"end":21532.679,"text":"委員牛旭廷等提案第十二條委員葉元智等提案第九條委員魯明哲等提案第九條委員張志倫等提案第十二條本條例施行細則由主管機關定之委員賴思寶等提案第九條委員陳玉珍等提案第九條委員王洪威等提案第九條委員許智傑等提案第九條本法自發布日施行"},{"start":21533.419,"end":21556.881,"text":"委員高金素梅等提案第11條委員牛許廷等提案第13條委員楊瓊英等提案第10條委員張志倫等提案第13條本條例子中華民國確念1月1日施行委員陳瑩等提案第8條委員羅廷偉等提案第10條本條例子公佈日施行委員吳立華等提案第10條本法施行日期由行政院以命令定之"},{"start":21558.362,"end":21580.196,"text":"台湾民众党党团提案第10条委员林思敏等提案第10条委员鲁明哲等提案第10条本条例自发布日施行委员郑天才等提案第9条委员林倩琪等提案第9条委员洪梦凯等提案第7条本法自公布日施行委员徐玉珍等提案第10条同委员高金素美等提案第11条并着作文字修正"},{"start":21580.996,"end":21601.113,"text":"委員翁曉林等提案第九條本條例自公佈日施行修正時已通委員葉元之等提案第十條本條例自發佈日施行宣讀完畢好我們做以下的決議討論四項所列第一案至第二十案議案令定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束現在來散會"}]}},{"id":"16520","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16520","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d826f2beb725bce959e2506b9d78cd73c7a524d1b3d409a1a2956358fb647b5715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n(3月17日及20日二天一次會)）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-17","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-17T08:30:31+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T12:54:00+08:00","duration":15809,"影片長度":"04:23:29","委員發言時間":"08:30:31 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國科會副主任委員蘇政剛副主委謝謝國科會主任秘書林廣宏國家科學及技術委員會科技辦公室執行秘書張正豪執密謝謝國科會綜合規劃處的處長彭麗春處長謝謝"},{"start":1956.589,"end":1978.737,"text":"國科會自然科學及永續研究發展處處長賴明智處長國家科學及技術委員會工程技術研究發展處處長洪樂文處長國科會生命科學研究發展處處長楊台鴻國科會人文及社會科學研究發展處處長黃俊儒謝謝"},{"start":1982.219,"end":1989.084,"text":"國科會科教發展及國際合作處處長李旺榮處長國科會前瞻級應用科技處處長蔡妙慈處長謝謝國科會產學及園區業務處處長林德森處長謝謝國科會秘書處處長黃玉清處長謝謝國科會人事處處長林妍珍處長"},{"start":2011.42,"end":2017.142,"text":"國科會政風處處長簡振坤處長謝謝國科會主計處處長廖玉燕處長謝謝國科會資訊處處長周子源處長謝謝國科會法規會執行秘書張益榮執行秘書"},{"start":2030.427,"end":2056.073,"text":"國科會研究誠信辦公室主任葉志誠主任謝謝新竹科學園區管理局局長陳忠權局長謝謝中部科學園區管理局局長許茂興局長謝謝南部科學園區管理局局長鄭秀榮局長謝謝行政法人國家災害防救科技中心主任陳鴻宇主任謝謝"},{"start":2058.143,"end":2080.298,"text":"行政法人國家太空中心主任吳宗信主任謝謝財團法人國家研究國家實驗研究院院長蔡鴻營院長謝謝財團法人國家同步輻射研究中心主任徐嘉鴻主任謝謝那現在請國科會吳主任委員進行報告報告時間8分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2091.621,"end":2114.506,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 大家好感謝各位委員關切國家科技發展並支持國科會的科技政策很榮幸列席大院教育及文化委員會進行業務報告國際局勢瞬息萬變 科技創新一日千里全球面臨供應鏈重組 淨零減碳等多重挑戰"},{"start":2115.726,"end":2133.755,"text":"國科會要做台灣科技的後盾,破壞前瞻科技藍圖,協助產官學員齊力維護我國科技領先優勢,促成科技研發落地應用,並推動各產業的創新發展,緊究未來施政重點,說明如後。"},{"start":2135.563,"end":2149.232,"text":"首先破壞大南方新矽谷AI助力百業升級第12次全國科技會議在去年12月圓滿落幕產官學院近1500人次參與會議討論未來4年將藉由半導體優勢與跨國跨業跨域合作並強化無人機衛星機器人等關鍵技術我們將協助"},{"start":2167.203,"end":2189.415,"text":"並強我們將協助各產業導入AI協助中小企業創新轉型也將均衡區域發展推動近鄰生活轉型後續將跨部會合作落實國家科學技術發展計畫以科技力帶動國家社會的全面進步"},{"start":2191.741,"end":2208.879,"text":"為導照台灣成為人工智慧之島,國科會提出的大南方新矽谷推動方案,涵蓋技術研發、系統整合與應用文化培育等任務,協助各類產業實現智慧創新轉型以提升競爭力。"},{"start":2210.717,"end":2239.713,"text":"未來將串聯南部半導體南帶構建以AI為核心的產業生態系落實AI產業化產業AI化同時佈局AI智慧應用綠能及資安等前瞻技術通過平衡南北支援提升台灣的創新能量與國際影響力同時以國家整體角度組成晶片台灣隊"},{"start":2241.997,"end":2256.155,"text":"連結台灣半導體優勢與本土產業創新需求進一步對接國際市場行銷全球以AI加晶片的雙驅動力帶動百工百業成長"},{"start":2257.307,"end":2278.907,"text":"此外人工智慧基本法草案行政院審查已告一段落預計本會期送大院審議另基於AI應用及管理需要本法案由數位發展部接續辦理第二"},{"start":2280.305,"end":2298.728,"text":"力挺基礎研究深化国际科研互惠交流基础研究是科技突破及产业创新的泉源国科会积极支持学研基础研究鼓励研究的原创性并推动前瞻学术研究"},{"start":2301.137,"end":2315.162,"text":"鏈結國際頂尖社群展現推動臺灣科技發展的堅定決心此外為厚植我國前瞻科技科研能量持續孕育高階跨域多元人才庫"},{"start":2316.55,"end":2339.353,"text":"我们推出优秀博士生奖学金,提升研究主持费,吸引外籍高阶人才来台等多项人才措施,同时推广科普教育透过创新多元科普平台及活动,鼓励年轻世代参与科学,并以分龄分种方式推广优质科普。"},{"start":2340.894,"end":2360.82,"text":"邁入第十年的科普環島列車透過車廂中的實驗活動認識科學新知去年的活動共培育超過二萬名未來小小科學家國科會製播的科普影片實習生的筆記本更榮獲金鐘獎最佳自然科學計時節目獎"},{"start":2363.188,"end":2392.32,"text":"在国际合作方面持续与民主国际伙伴进行科技交流合作于世界舞台发挥台湾科技的实质影响力迄今已累计与43国及3个国际组织签署135项合作协定等文件例如去年秋季我分别造访了德国及美国进行实质交流建立科研合作机制"},{"start":2393.414,"end":2418.199,"text":"並且與矽谷科技界討論AI等產業議題成果豐碩11月台化科技合作協議交過下兩國密切交流互動熱絡分別於台北與巴黎舉辦國際研討會並頒發台化科技獎表彰兩國頂尖學者科研合作的成果第三"},{"start":2419.603,"end":2448.153,"text":"過足新創雨林推動生態園區落實均衡台灣為發掘具潛力的研發成果並協助其商業化將集結各季專校院具特色專長的團隊針對產業共通需求跨域應用開發解決方案協助企業導入AI技術實現智慧雨林產業創生的理念在拓展園區方面"},{"start":2449.5,"end":2473.935,"text":"配合發展政府規劃的六大區域產業及生活圈未來新設園區將以永續生態環境、在地共好共榮、韌性經濟基盤等三大主軸推動下下世代生態科學園區並透過中央地方產業與學界共同搭建實驗區域的治理平台"},{"start":2475.035,"end":2502.89,"text":"與交通教育醫療文化生態等面向攜手合作完善園區周邊生活機能實現均衡台灣的目標國科會前瞻規劃科技佈局支持學研界深化基礎研究並培育科技產業所需的高階跨域人才致力推動科研長期發展落實均衡韌性"},{"start":2504.301,"end":2527.514,"text":"健康的願景以上報告懇請委員鼎力支持並敬祝各位身體健康順心如意謝謝謝謝吳主委的口頭報告那我們現在介紹在場的委員柯志恩委員羅廷偉羅廷偉委員"},{"start":2531.843,"end":2555.05,"text":"那我們今天呢這個每位出席委員的質詢8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘那列席委員的質詢時間就是5分鐘那發言登記截止的時間是上午的10點半那我們今天的這個委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10點30分以前提出並於本會委員范雲委員質詢結束後"},{"start":2556.71,"end":2567.374,"text":"及進行處理處理提案的時候若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理那我們首先請發言登記第一位羅廷偉委員質詢謝謝趙偉有請主委有請主委"},{"start":2586.335,"end":2612.915,"text":"羅委員好好謝謝主委想先在質詢之前先跟您請問一下之前你還記得你有辦一個活動叫小小科學家嗎有覺得怎麼樣還不錯吧很成功是您辦在哪邊您之前有會診這些相關的活動嗎我們在國科的科技大樓有沒有機會來到台中科博館台中科博館我們可以研議一下請"},{"start":2614.995,"end":2638.18,"text":"科博館是教育部的才藝我知道但是畢竟跟科學有關係我們願意跟教育部合作可以跟教育部合作嗎那來到台中一起移師讓我們來看看小小科學家相關的一些辦理的一個過程我想帶領一些孩子走向科學家的一個先勤的教育我想這個國科會是不是可以來到我們台中是 我們樂意辦理"},{"start":2639.901,"end":2650.773,"text":"那接下來的這個質詢我可能要比較小心一點我怕這個部分上不要讓你說感覺到我在太過激烈不然你就不來台中辦活動了"},{"start":2652.008,"end":2673.14,"text":"那主委我想說但是時事我們還是要再討論一下啦就是台灣吳諾貝爾講這個部分主委上次有看到一個新聞你有說丟臉對不對這個言語上是用的蠻武斷的啦當然我要先講我感受到的是愛之深則知切這樣子幫你詮釋可以嗎"},{"start":2674.601,"end":2697.809,"text":"謝謝委員可以吧是我們並沒有要去做任何的批評那但都是為了台灣更好那但是我要講的是說在這一次的專校院長的那個會議呢我想你有提到台灣經濟實力已非小國但本土的努力幾十年任位有諾貝爾獎所以你提到了這句話但是我們看到鄰近幾國"},{"start":2699.485,"end":2713.473,"text":"包括韓國其實也沒有諾貝爾獎那在這樣子一個說法當中其實引起了一個學界的嘩然那當然網友也是非常熱絡的在探討你有看留言嗎你個人會去看網路留言嗎"},{"start":2714.554,"end":2738.905,"text":"我沒有時間去看網路的資料我想在這樣子的一個說法當中我是覺得我們還是要探討具體的到底該怎麼辦學界發展的一些本質其實也有很多人想要去探討主委您講完這句話以後我相信主委您是學界出身的您最了解學界的一些狀況您個人覺得問題在哪裡"},{"start":2741.363,"end":2767.696,"text":"我其實講完那句話以後得到很多大學校長的支持我跟委員報告台灣其實是有實力現在已經有實力是可以去探討一些人類面臨的共同的一些問題然後做出對人類社會有重大貢獻的研究但是現在我們的機制其實還需要再改善我其實當初講這句話是提醒我們所有的大學校長"},{"start":2768.596,"end":2787.212,"text":"要來檢討我們目前的這個機制因為現在國科會還有教育部已經逐漸在放鬆對於大學的傳統那種叫管理的這個思維因為一個國家的這個科技發展包含科學的研究學術研究以及技術的開發"},{"start":2788.433,"end":2812.98,"text":"都是仰賴我們最高等的這個教育機構教育體制大學作為一個最高級的教育體制一定要能夠放鬆對自己的限制我們現在很多大學內部的這個內規多如牛毛都是在限制自己我們已經放鬆了一些法令規章其實大學還有很多是自我束縛沒有鬆綁的這個都是校長的責任我期待是他們要做這個事情"},{"start":2813.24,"end":2829.432,"text":"那我舉幾個我們面臨到的一個挑戰我們大家探討一下其實學術的評鑑制度的一個僵化以及教授為了升等被迫拼論文的一個數量那沒有辦法投入長期的一個突破性研究那我想國際學術交流的機制不足"},{"start":2829.992,"end":2845.787,"text":"以及台灣學者在頂尖國際研究組織中的比例偏低影響力有限再來是科技資源的分散難以集中支持有突破性的研究導致真正有潛力的學者並且無法獲得足夠的資源您覺得呢"},{"start":2846.347,"end":2875.177,"text":"這個我是同意的我就是為了要各大學要檢討這個事情所以期待他們趕快進行這些所以我剛剛開宗明義就講您是愛之深責之切不為過都是為了這一個能夠未來我們在科學再拿到諾貝爾來做一個努力那做研究是長期的馬拉松我想你最應該了解先知我們未來庸才找先知謀未來庸才找理由"},{"start":2875.737,"end":2901.076,"text":"那研究從來不是單打獨夠來做才能夠成功而是需要國家的策略政策的規劃與國際的合作跟積累所以我想政府無法提供對策跟解放的話恐怕再過20年還是一樣會在這裡談一樣的問題所以我希望我們知道問題了我們也講出問題了那現階段能不能靠主委在透過制度上來幫忙協助來幫忙改善來做一個改革您覺得有信心嗎"},{"start":2901.926,"end":2929.747,"text":"我有信心報告委員剛剛您講這些從學界來反過來對我的批評其實是在批評他們自己我跟大家報告就是說沒有長期研究現在對國會來講這個完全不是理由國會支持多年期的研究已經存在蠻長的這個時間了但是在大學裡面設定自己設定對學生修讀辦法以論文發表的數量"},{"start":2931.341,"end":2949.359,"text":"對老師的獎勵也用論文發表的數量對於這個升等也是用論文發表數量等等這種自我限制的這個做法是不對的論文發表是一個傳遞研究成果知識的一個管道它不能叫做研究的成果"},{"start":2950.4,"end":2970.235,"text":"論文的發表只是其中一個管道你可以公開演講你可以參加討論會你可以到處去宣揚你的理念這個都是傳遞知識的管道書信往來都是但是論文發表的數量當作是一個指標是不對的我期待能夠破除這樣的迷思以對人類社會貢獻"},{"start":2973.127,"end":3001.626,"text":"為主的這種研究長期的研究我們本來就會都會支持是學校自己要改善自己的制度在這個部分上我覺得還是要多溝通啦但因為你已經有做一個相關的補助或者是相關的支持這我都知道但是看到制度的僵化我剛剛提到的以及論文拼數量那到底還有沒有什麼方法可以去想辦法去做這樣子的一個改革我想跟教育部當然責無旁貸我們大家一起來努力那這個部分還是有勞你我們希望能夠看到改革"},{"start":3003.167,"end":3020.034,"text":"您的說法是希望這裡更好那我們也願意支持所以今天來做一個探討是好不好我們一起來加油謝謝羅遠好那主委那我想另外再探討去年12月18日第12屆的全國科技會上您在記者會上宣布要組一個晶片台灣隊還記得嗎"},{"start":3021.454,"end":3043.82,"text":"記者好那您表示台灣目前半導體的產業鏈包含IC設計晶圓製造以及封裝測試對接的對象大部分為國外市場也就是說我們半導體產業的鏈的一個製造出來的產品大多是給國外的一個客戶而非供應國內產業的一個需求政治上因與調整具體的調整方向可以和大家說一下嗎"},{"start":3045.27,"end":3071.492,"text":"我們過去以代工為主的這種產業模式我希望能夠也同時連結到可以支持台灣自己國內的需求而不是說我們買的這些系統的產品都從國外買回來但是供應鏈都是對接到台灣所以就是強化內需嘛強化內需是否意味著政府應該要透過政策的引導使台灣的半導體產品能夠更多的應用在國內的產業"},{"start":3073.353,"end":3094.642,"text":"如果是具體這樣子的話 那你覺得我們具體的政策該怎麼去用一個引導的方式來實施有沒有一個臨時性的計畫或者是草案是 我們現在在行政院也有一個機制 政府院長在領導的一些討論目前還在討論就對了我們希望從今年開始 我們各部會編列的這些預算在於這個需求端編列的預算"},{"start":3096.403,"end":3115.308,"text":"我們希望能夠對接到我們科技產品供應端也能夠把它串聯起來也就是說跨部會的合作以後會變得非常的重要在政策制定跟執行的時候希望能夠也直接鏈接到我們自己的產業鏈我想能夠形成一個常態性的國家戰略這是我們樂觀期程但是這個計畫的規劃期程短中長期"},{"start":3119.369,"end":3148.488,"text":"我覺得勢必要做出來太久遠的目標我們怕做不到那太短期的又怕短時間力那能不能短中長期能夠做出來這是我們希望能夠看到的我想台積電作為全球最大的一個晶圓代工廠其主要的客戶我們都知道來自美國日本歐洲等科技巨頭顯示台灣的半導體產業已在全球供應鏈中佔有關鍵的地位請問是否認為主委您覺得目前的出口市場不夠穩定才會推動強化內需"},{"start":3151.03,"end":3163.496,"text":"我們的出口市場當然基於地緣政治的影響,各種新的科技的發生,產業鏈的重組等等,不見得每一個項目都很穩定。當然我們的產業也會隨著市場的遷移,也會調整他們自己。"},{"start":3169.819,"end":3195.026,"text":"當然我們也希望內需的需求增加能夠讓我們的定位能夠再提升所以我說我們要建立這個晶片台灣隊就是希望我們自己的晶片產業也能夠對待我們自己內需的市場所以我希望喔 主委你有沒有進行詳細的市場研究評估未來台灣半導體可能面臨到的一個挑戰例如美國的晶片法案歐盟的半導體法案日本相關的計畫是否將影響台灣的一個外銷需求"},{"start":3195.566,"end":3216.422,"text":"我想還是因為台積電要去美國的關係主委也急了那如果我們面臨外銷市場仍然穩定為何政府要在這個時候要選擇強化內需您覺得呢我們現在外銷的這個市場不見得會像以前一樣穩定因為現在我們都知道"},{"start":3217.813,"end":3241.656,"text":"在各國即使是民主國家都會有選舉這種選舉之後的政府決策都會隨著科技的增長國外可能突飛猛進然後也有一些政治因素所以我們也應該要先看到未來所以你也覺得外國外銷市場有可能會趨健於不穩定那我們也防範於未來強化內需我這樣子的評斷可以嗎"},{"start":3242.116,"end":3271.225,"text":"是 是 這個是其中一個很重要的因素沒有錯想法內需同時我們要因應市場的這個轉變協助我們的廠商全球布局這樣好 我希望能夠再多做一些評估啦台灣到底能不能具備這樣子的成長潛力能夠支持這樣子的政策轉向我們希望你能夠多加研究最後我想講台灣市場規模有限半導體的需求主要來自全球市場而非本地消費端我們並不像美國 中國有那樣子巨大的中端的一個消費市場"},{"start":3272.465,"end":3294.013,"text":"內需市場的擴張幅度有限如果我們推動的內需市場發展卻無法創造足夠的產值跟需求是否可能會導致企業的資源錯配甚至影響台灣整個在全球供應鏈的一個角色這都是我要提到未來的一個方針這個部分我希望能夠再好好的評估我們大家一起努力短中長期的一個企劃能夠趕快出來謝謝"},{"start":3299.354,"end":3318.743,"text":"謝謝羅廷偉委員這個主委請回座那我們現在呢請問各位委員上次會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處沒有好謝謝謝謝柯之恩委員沒有的話我們議事錄就確定那我們接著繼續進行質詢請柯之恩委員質詢謝謝莊委我們是不是請主委"},{"start":3327.706,"end":3328.309,"text":"有請主委備諮詢 謝謝"},{"start":3332.021,"end":3347.648,"text":"各位好 您該不只一次說台積電會跟流台灣而且事實上只有台灣的政府才會真心照顧我們這個保護我們台灣的廠商這點我完全同意因為這是大家共同的一個期望但是我們現在必須要知道的就是台積電移過去之後呢大家就會開始發現說其實全球的產業鏈其實正是經歷一所前所未有的大遷徙台積電過去了我們後面的後端的"},{"start":3360.274,"end":3364.939,"text":"我們後端的這個封測廠應該也都會過去吧這點應該是毋庸置疑的吧不對 那個柯委員 我跟你講台積電並沒有移過去台積電會擴充它的這個實力我說它會有一大堆移過去一些的部分然後封測廠是不是接連也要過去 是不是"},{"start":3382.057,"end":3409.026,"text":"风土产当然也要扩充他们的实力所以说这就是为什么大家会认为整个的供应链里面会面临一场大的迁徙我们先把这个前提先确定一下然后接下来就是我真的是要跟国客会有关的就是因为因应这样子你特别提到了我们要结合AI提早布局台湾未来的科技产业没有错所以你们就提出了一个精创台湾方案"},{"start":3410.086,"end":3411.369,"text":"三千億 這點沒有錯吧這個是在"},{"start":3415.83,"end":3420.594,"text":"上一届的當然不是你認的三千億我們來看看這個三千億當中怎麼樣來花這個主委我第一個要先特別問到的話這個是113到112然後呢八隻指計畫當中呢只有一支計畫是今年今年1月1號才開始執行其他的七個部分呢都是在去年1月1號就開始執行沒有錯吧這個時間軸沒有錯是"},{"start":3443.331,"end":3469.105,"text":"好 那重点就是了 你们去年1月1号开始执行你们却在去年的5月成立了一个精创台湾推动的办公室你告诉我是要策略规划 计划管考 指引方向这很奇怪啊 你1月1号就已经开始先行了你5月才给我成立这个办公室 到底是为什么都已经先成立了 其实都已经先成立了为什么5月还成立这个办公室"},{"start":3470.455,"end":3491.278,"text":"而且这个办公室到底花了多少钱这个办公室你找的十位学者当然有一些是跟绿营关系非常好的我就不再一一追究但是呢这个部分里面呢一年当中呢我问了老半天到底这十位学者啊专家到底是做了哪些事情薪水到底多少这个我问不到哎哎"},{"start":3492.259,"end":3508.015,"text":"主委我問不到欸你告訴我說這個部分裡面呢我要交代到底要做些哪些的事情你們裡面的具體的細項到底是什麼我問不到你們是給我回應了一個完全是根據外聘人員然後根據專題研究經費的方法來處理還有根據軍公教人員兼職的這個知己要領我做的國科會拿了十"},{"start":3515.562,"end":3534.617,"text":"四年的计划补助我当然知道这个钱多少你却是在这个过程当中研究人力的费用竟然花了八千万我问不到这里面的细想八千万一年的经费是八千万更何况你是五月在已经先成立完之后五月才成立这个办公室请问可不可以交代一下这个办公室到底在做什么"},{"start":3535.546,"end":3554.069,"text":"一年經費八千萬難道你告訴我十個人一個人領八百萬嗎應該不是吧報告委員我們很多重大的政策項目都有成立推動辦公室不是只有金創辦公室我現在只問說你一月就已經七支計畫先行你五月才成立這個辦公室所以你讓我們大家覺得是你是先設計再畫吧"},{"start":3555.677,"end":3571.304,"text":"就我所知 去年1月才開始精算計畫的推動那開始以後才確定立法院審查完這個預算以後才確定有這一筆預算 他們才去組專家團成立這個推動辦公室"},{"start":3572.945,"end":3599.991,"text":"主委你如果是这样的话你要请你们的法务专家来看一下你七只子计划一月就已经开始先行了五月再成立这个办公室这个逻辑上面的措置是有一些的问题的我现在只要求在这个时间点我要看到你的研究经费的八千万当中一年成立八千万当中里面有多少人到底每个月你的薪资是多少助理费到底是多少里面的细项可不可以交给本席一份"},{"start":3600.851,"end":3613.083,"text":"我在一般來說我要不到,我只能跟你在這個執行上要到因為這牽涉到很多的是跟...有些什麼機密嗎?又是秘密文件嗎?有些商業機密我只是要人到底領多少錢,這也是商業機密他們做的事情是要密切跟執行計畫的單位不是各部會,是執行計畫的單位他們要互動的,這個包含產業的推動的項目"},{"start":3624.994,"end":3644.855,"text":"好 你信箱可以不用給 但是每一個人領多少錢 這應該可以給嘛你告訴我是依照一般的轉 我要不到 所以給我一份這些人到底領多少錢 好不好你們現在每次什麼 每次都要跟一些產業機密我們大概立法院就可以閉嘴了否則每次都說你在牽扯這機密 這個真的實在是我沒有辦法接受牽涉到我們很重要的半導體的廠商啦"},{"start":3645.976,"end":3660.563,"text":"好 我廠商我不要我也不care你們跟他之間到底有什麼樣的deal我只告訴你我們國家付錢這些人到底每一個月領多少錢這個是符合規定給我所以沒有什麼道理我要不到的你們給我這一份真的是讓我現在非常的生氣 好不好"},{"start":3661.499,"end":3681.611,"text":"主委然后接下来呢我们还是要回应到你刚刚所说一个比较重要的问题就是有关诺贝尔问题当然你那一句话叫说没有出不了这个诺贝尔得主叫做丢脸观这句话讲的够重但是过重的过程当中也引起非常多的一个讨论啊你认为用诺贝尔的这个量化的指标来当做科研的成就这句话成不成立"},{"start":3682.864,"end":3700.32,"text":"我這個不叫量化啦我是說因為諾貝爾獎評審的條件是要對人類社會有正面的重大貢獻嘛所以我的意思就是說我們的這個研究也不見得所有領域都是有諾貝爾獎啦還有很多其他領域是啦但是好啦主委我就要跟你討論嘛以這個精神就是要對我們的社會"},{"start":3702.222,"end":3707.69,"text":"我們的文化文明的提升等等要有我同意啊我今天坐在台下裡面講我在大學教書二十幾年我也認為每次都是用那個所謂的這個paper的一個產量來當作是升等或是任何的一個指標我也覺得這個東西是不盡公平因為畢竟來說"},{"start":3717.725,"end":3732.379,"text":"如果說你要當PAPER當指標我告訴你現在目前太多學者為了拿到獎勵特別是國科會的獎勵有很多的PAPER你們國科會要的連續型計畫大家都給你連續型你們要跨領域就可以跨領域你們要綜合就可以跨很多人為了要符合這個標準然後就開始"},{"start":3733.2,"end":3740.746,"text":"不是好好的去鑽研深化他的研究完全是配合淺層的指標我們都同意這一點所以我贊成你剛剛的說法但是我還是要回應過來因為諾貝爾的關係你要看看我們過去28年開始我們其實已經花了多少錢大概投資了超過3000億以上來對我們這個研究包括我們每個人都經歷過的卓越計畫、頂尖計畫、深耕計畫投入非常多的錢但是很顯然"},{"start":3762.242,"end":3791.329,"text":"为了南北平衡还有为了非常多的这样子的一个很多齐头市所以齐头市的分配我觉得这个才是造成我们现在没有办法好好的深化的所以呢台大的陈文章这个校长忍不住说了你若要产生一个诺贝尔我们说实在你要让世界知道嘛你美国国家科学院的这个院士美国国家工程学院的院士或者欧加的院士你可能要有一些的作为到时候诺贝尔投票的时候才会有这样的一个基础嘛"},{"start":3791.869,"end":3807.461,"text":"但是我们却没有办法往这边来走更不要说我们接下来去看了我们在过去十年来说的话要产生不管是诺贝尔或是更有贡献的我们的基础研究主管你同意吧基础研究应该是要投入更多的心力嘛"},{"start":3808.325,"end":3821.09,"text":"我們科技預算的編列在基礎研究是逐年在增加逐年在增加但是跟過去的比重來去看還是沒有算是逐年增加我給你看一下比重你說像目前為止五年成長45%你希望能夠讓大學無後顧之憂但是我們來看一下科研的比率來說基礎研究2023年大概是佔26但是你跟2014年過去10年比起來過去的科研的比率還是佔31%"},{"start":3836.516,"end":3859.09,"text":"你現在只在26其實是逐年下降了這邊都有數據來告訴你然後呢你真的是投資比較多的是屬於技術的發展大概在45.5所以我們的基礎研究跟我們的技術發展來說比重幾乎是已經完全是下降到很低了更不要說呢我們如果看到整個的研究方法來我們往下去看你像2014是9.5到目前為止大概是只有只有你看2022比CPS8"},{"start":3864.833,"end":3879.722,"text":"你跟去年比起來大致成長0.4%報告委員我們的原因是因為應用研究的人口增加比重蠻高的但是基礎研究的人力它的數量為此大概變化不大"},{"start":3880.342,"end":3899.802,"text":"所以他們每個人的人均研究的經驗都一直快速在提升但是數據在這個地方我還是請我們要看人均每個人但是我還是提醒主委你所認為的基礎研究沒有你想像中那麼多相對而言我只是說我們要對於基礎研究這整張重點就告訴你基礎研究的重要性過去我們長期被技術上面來說的話我們這個部分裡面"},{"start":3904.326,"end":3925.329,"text":"的确在这个经费的比重上因为这个部分里面任何的科研人才还是直居于基础研究这是非常重要的当然是我们科学人才里面我们是高度的流失你再给你看一个数据我们往下来去看我们用这个2024 IMD的这个所谓的竞争力来去看整体来看我们是稍微是退步的"},{"start":3925.689,"end":3940.085,"text":"然後再來看氣象來說你看我們各個的這個特別是在有關於環境吸引國外高階人才來說我們真的是退步蠻多特別是科技人才的充足度不好意思我們足足退步的10名左右"},{"start":3940.606,"end":3958.681,"text":"我们真的是这个部分在于有关要留住人才不管是在本国人才还是吸引外国的人才到我们台湾来其实我们在这一块逐年都是在衰退当中这是我们的警讯这是我们警讯当然是来自于不管是我们的薪资还有包括我们所有大概不可否认嘛助理教授"},{"start":3959.281,"end":3982.212,"text":"很勉强都要到一百万年薪一百万都有点辛苦那你随便一个半导体造一个非常年轻的研究所毕业的工程师大概就可以马上开出两百多万所以你很难吸引很多的我们这样的一个人愿意留在我们基础的地方来去做这是我们很大的一个隐忧嘛因为用户的条件利用条件还有所谓的team基本上面目前为止是面临一个非常大的困难点啊"},{"start":3983.506,"end":4003.962,"text":"國會在我們主政的範圍我們會盡量就是說我們在學者的研究計畫的經費的額度主持費我們都提升了但是委員提到的在我們整個教育體系的薪資的問題我們當然希望教育部我們也一起來努力在我們整個政府的這個機制"},{"start":4006.824,"end":4032.573,"text":"公教分離啊之類的那些我覺得國科會在這一點的話勢必有些時候是要跟教育部好好來溝通討論教育部所放的一個重點其實在在真的是牽連到我們未來人才的一個培養高教人才逐漸的一個流失這些逐漸的流失裡面其實就是我們人才庫未來是不是可以更豐厚然後這些人才庫是否留得住當這個環境學術環境如果不夠精彩的話其實外國的學者也很"},{"start":4032.793,"end":4053.798,"text":"不願意到我們這個地方這是我們整體的部分當這個人才不夠的時候我們未來的產業發展也勢必受到非常大的一個影響我們台灣最重要的就是我們人才庫如果我們這點沒有辦法做到的話其實這對台灣來說未來競爭力來說那才是最大的一個損失導演 我們會努力好 謝謝好 謝謝柯志恩委員質詢主委請回座 謝謝"},{"start":4057.5,"end":4074.912,"text":"好那我們接著繼續進行質詢請林沛翔委員質詢謝謝主席有請主委有請主委被質詢謝謝"},{"start":4078.871,"end":4099.466,"text":"林委員好書偉在你第四頁的報告裡面提到所謂的大南方新矽谷推動方案可是以本席目前查到的資料來看的時候在我們台灣南部的科技園區目前所謂這個真正進駐率是48%比較起說已經成功的新竹科技園區已經高達92%進駐率"},{"start":4101.247,"end":4114.634,"text":"我想請問一下主委說到目前為止針對這個不管是大南方新矽谷的推動方案也好還是目前這個南科的整個進駐率也好請問目前有沒有什麼激勵方案或是激勵的政策"},{"start":4116.034,"end":4139.054,"text":"我們所有的科學園區從北到南其實政策都一樣就是搭配我們進駐園區的這些廠商我們所有的機制都一樣但是南部如果委員講的是科技園區科技園區是屬於經濟部所管轄的但是如果是科學園區我們的進駐率現在幾乎都飽和了"},{"start":4140.415,"end":4156.123,"text":"幾乎都滿了因為本席在這邊知道一個狀況就是說現在全世界在搶這些所謂的明星產業到科學園區去進駐那比較尷尬的就是說我知道的狀況是新加坡目前有一個"},{"start":4157.023,"end":4180.726,"text":"一個算是稅富優惠他們那個明星企業到新加坡他們可以享受高達25%的稅富優惠那請問主委您會認為說如果我們就要跟他們競爭的話我們是不是應該提高我們的那個稅富優惠到30%才能比較容易的去把這些明星企業像是AMD也好NVIDIA也好把它拉過來呢"},{"start":4182.509,"end":4197.429,"text":"我對於國外企業到台灣來投資這個事情我想各種的優惠措施各個國家其實都在競爭當中那台灣其實我們最重要的競爭力其實是我們有非常好的供應鏈"},{"start":4198.71,"end":4227.281,"text":"基礎的這個包含傳統產業基礎的這些產業我們對於協助科技產業其實幫助非常大所以我們在科學園區裡面其實也有非常多的這個國際級的公司進來包含像美光那委員提到了這個AMD跟這個NVIDIA他們倒不見得會進到科學園區因為他們進到台灣來其實從事的這個業務呢主要還是在於"},{"start":4228.101,"end":4244.199,"text":"做這個他們自己公司本身的這個供應鏈的連結以及應用上面所以不見得會進到我們的科學園區好 朱瑞我現在接下來要提到你剛剛講到工研院也剛剛柯志恩委員在上"},{"start":4244.779,"end":4259.264,"text":"上一場質詢的時候提到人才的問題那嚴格講起來就是說我看到第46頁你就這邊有研究獎勵嘛獎勵特殊優秀人才跟獎勵科研人才這些都對我以前在大學任教現在在大學任教來講其實都是好事"},{"start":4259.844,"end":4276.725,"text":"但是我們最近也常常聽到一個觀念叫做算力及競爭力及國力也就是說我們如果在未來的這個AI的21世界裡面我們的算力要是沒有比其他我們一個城市的算力沒有比其他的強的話我們在競爭力上面就比較精彩就比較辛苦"},{"start":4277.125,"end":4303.647,"text":"所以說如何把我們現在已經訓練出來的這些AI博士這些AI的這些專業人才讓他留在台灣那會變成是很重要的一塊那我想請問主委有沒有考慮過因為目前我得到的資料裡面只有台積電跟聯發科有所謂去正式去聘用這些所謂的Quantum Physics PhD也就是所謂的量子物理學的博士目前他們就這兩家公司有去請到"},{"start":4304.648,"end":4326.654,"text":"有沒有想過說在這邊透過國科會跟業界直接合作去製造一個所謂的量子的工程師不管是量子物理學工程師還是其他的量子方面的工程師因為量子物理學的整個研究領域是很廣的有沒有考慮說由國科會跟這個企業直接去合作去開這樣的job listing"},{"start":4328.299,"end":4347.585,"text":"國會現在在量子我們現在講量子科技是從傳統的量子力學它是理論演變過來那現在進到這個科技領域我們現在有兩個方向在發展一個方向就是希望也能夠跟世界比較先進的國家一樣"},{"start":4348.385,"end":4373.666,"text":"能夠發展將來量子運算的一些設備那現在正在努力當中所以我們的量子國家隊裡面包含這個國科會的資助的這個學界以及中央研究院大概分成這兩部分中央研究院現在正在努力在建置量子運算的這個設備已經達到目前的成果已經達到五個我們叫量子位元的這樣的這個運算的這個基礎"},{"start":4376.389,"end":4377.093,"text":"那在國會這邊我們有這個"},{"start":4380.615,"end":4408.2,"text":"量子國家隊的這個成員包含學界的所有的各學校的這個教授他們研究的是比較基礎的包含量子的委員提到的量子物理理論的這個研究還有材料的研究不好意思其實我了解說我們官方目前獨立有在做這方面的事情為什麼我會特地說能不能開始想說跟這個業界做一定程度的collaboration做一定程度的合作因為據我所知道"},{"start":4408.88,"end":4422.026,"text":"我們每培養出來不知道現在這個是只有100個我們去年只有培養出來100個AI博士還是我們培養出來每100個AI博士留在台灣的只有35個也就是35%的人留在台灣其他65%的人都被外國或外國企業給吸引走那這個其實對我們台灣的人才來講是很傷的"},{"start":4430.289,"end":4445.836,"text":"剛剛不只是柯智恩委員講到說人才是我們台灣最寶貴的資產而如果我們真的要發展所謂的算力那我們的AI博士好不容易辛苦訓練出來的人才就這樣被外國拉走的時候我會認為說這是很可惜的"},{"start":4446.576,"end":4461.296,"text":"我們老實講我聽過一個企業家講過一句話出理不出的道理他說這個人才留不下來一錢給的不夠二心受委屈了那對於韓國來講他們當然有如果我就以韓國來講因為我們畢竟來講我們最大的科技競爭對手應該是韓國"},{"start":4463.438,"end":4487.714,"text":"韓國他們對於他們的AI工程師或他們的AI博士他們第一時間提出就是免服兵役的優惠第二時間他們就提出很高的高額獎金不管是業界也好還是工理業也好他們提出很高額的獎金把他們留下來那我想請問說我們主委有沒有考慮跟各部會來去做這樣的合作來把我們的AI博士把我們的AI的人才留在台灣優先呢"},{"start":4488.733,"end":4516.209,"text":"非常謝謝委員的這個建議我覺得這個建議很好就是說我們的這個AI的人才特別是能夠念到博士學位其實現在是很少啦很多人念了這個碩士學位以後他選擇是到國外去發展因為創新的這個地方才有這個AI人才發揮的這個餘地嘛我們當然很幸運的我們主席也是也是AI博士啦非常寶貴的人才但是我們需要更多的這個AI的人才"},{"start":4518.17,"end":4533.479,"text":"他能夠把台灣當作是一個創新的一個基地能夠做各種各樣的新的包含模型的這個發展 應用特別是在應用的領域協助各行各業能夠做很多創新應用系統的這個開發把這個台灣變成AI之島我很期待是這個樣子"},{"start":4540.103,"end":4567.138,"text":"分享一下 我覺得因為我在國外也很長一段時間那基本上每個在台灣外地上班外地留學的學生學生都會想回來台灣工作當然還是那句話錢給的不夠心受委屈了可是這一點來講的話我就會建請說我們國科委真的好好考慮跟業界來合作是不是能夠撞到說我們剛開始這段質詢剛才講的量子工程師或各方面的東西讓我們流外的人才願意早點回來幫我們國家服務"},{"start":4569.159,"end":4585.767,"text":"不好意思那還有另外一個議題要討論就是說因為我是基隆來的委員所以對於海洋科研方面我會比較注重那其實海洋科研來講我們台灣四面四海我們秩序是個海洋國家雖然我有我們的"},{"start":4586.147,"end":4598.304,"text":"法規上面還是所謂的大陸法規這八路法則就是比較以內陸為主的但是既然我們是海洋國家的話我就想請教主委說在我們的海洋科學研究裡面我們的總經費大概多少"},{"start":4608.229,"end":4618.894,"text":"總經費為什麼這樣講的原因是說因為海洋科學研究其實很重要尤其是各方面的AI在進步當中的時候那我也是同樣的不是像"},{"start":4619.494,"end":4639.142,"text":"自詡為海洋國家在海洋科技研究上面會再種資本的不是只有台灣日本 韓國 新加坡也都是我們的合作夥伴也是競爭對手那等於我們是不是我們跟他們經費不要說錢一樣多就是比例上面是不是跟他們相似還是比他們高還是比他們低呢"},{"start":4641.107,"end":4662.57,"text":"報告委員這一點的確是我們現在努力的方向有關這個海洋科技的研究我們現在其實已經啟動一個規劃的工作就是希望能夠把我們的海洋中心能夠擴大剛剛委員提到就是說在我們的東北角海岸在東岸"},{"start":4663.47,"end":4690.672,"text":"我們要投入這個研究的這個能量的確是現在我們規劃當中是未來要擴充的那期待就是我們現在開始要編列明年115年的這個預算的時候我們能夠在現在已經在規劃當中能夠把這一項納進來擴充我們的海洋中心也能夠延伸到不是只有照顧我們的西南海岸而已能夠延伸到東岸東北"},{"start":4691.853,"end":4717.259,"text":"蠻重要的是就是說我個人認為美國氣象跟大氣總署的NOAA美國海洋跟大氣總署他們其實現在已經在用AI來去做所謂漁群在漁業上面的監控跟漁群上面的偵測同樣的技術老實講AI這個技術既然有了應該不管包括大數據還是包括深度學習應該都不困難"},{"start":4718.079,"end":4735.872,"text":"我是從基隆來的 我們基隆的漁業算是蠻重要的一環有沒有特地去用這種AI跟大數據跟深度學習的AI這種組合型的工具或模組來去追蹤或者是去預測未來漁群的移動呢"},{"start":4739.135,"end":4763.369,"text":"這一種研究就是有關這個漁業漁群的這種利用AI的研究我們的確是鼓勵很多的這個教授現在有沒有這個計畫應該有 現在應該有如果沒有的話我想請國科會老實講基隆是海洋重鎮那對於這個海洋科技研究上面來講我們不敢講說經費一定要比別人多但是應該要有一個合理的配置我們現在自然處有一個指揮海洋經濟"},{"start":4764.149,"end":4778.916,"text":"如果可以的話 建請主委在這邊多關注一點尤其是有關漁群這方面如果美國已經在做對於他們的漁業的監控是用AI的話那我覺得我們中華民國也是有同樣的能力去做到同樣程度的探索沒問題 謝謝委員謝謝林沛翔委員質詢主委以及官員請回座 謝謝"},{"start":4796.752,"end":4816.415,"text":"好 再來有請葛如君委員質詢好 謝謝代理召委 有請國科會吳承文主委有請吳主委各位好 主委好 主委早安"},{"start":4821.353,"end":4846.429,"text":"比AI還聰明主委早安今天是本會期第一次的輪值召委第一個議程立刻就來安排國科會來做業務報告也相信您可以看到本席對於科技發展真的非常重視但是不曉得主委對我國的科技發展是不是也能夠持續的發出同等的重視剛剛我看了你們的業務報告非常精彩"},{"start":4846.849,"end":4853.798,"text":"有提到很多的國際合作這一點我覺得非常非常的好也看到了非常多的副主委都在這樣的國際交流當中出現那剛剛林委員有提到的這個兵役的問題我確實真的覺得我們要趕快參考南韓在重點科技發展產業要把這些人才可以留下來"},{"start":4864.272,"end":4880.027,"text":"像我們有一個非常好的計畫叫Taiwan LLM裡面有一個非常好的研究員叫林彥廷他現在就去服兵役了那當然你說四個月說短不短但接下來有可能都會變成一年這個對AI來講四個月可能是四個世紀"},{"start":4880.708,"end":4899.411,"text":"一年很可能是一個好幾個世代的迭代希望主委可以評估一下盡快看我們能怎麼樣來照顧這些人才那我們今天檢視我們國更會的業務報告我覺得還是想要來確認一下主委認為我們台灣的這個AI科研算完成了嗎"},{"start":4901.575,"end":4918.694,"text":"永遠不會完成沒錯嘛很好您的答案非常好包含我們的台德的計畫也一直都還在持續強化當中這個目前我們引頸期盼13B好像也還在做最後的確認當然很可能有很多原因啦包含資料啊等等"},{"start":4920.134,"end":4943.195,"text":"但是我想我們看到您的報告裡面其實我們今天的業務報告的內容可以看到通篇著重在AI產業化凡提及AI必說產業想請教一下主委你到底是忘了AI現在正處在您剛剛所提到的科研根本就還沒有完成的階段還是害怕想起來在科研領域當中AI是最重要的項目"},{"start":4943.795,"end":4962.424,"text":"一下子講AI產業化一下講產業AI化您是有一個非常重要的重點是AI科技的研發這是您的主責真的不要再來這個題說要甩鍋給速發部我想根據本席所知也跟您交流過上個禮拜五速發部跟國科會之間發生了一件大事"},{"start":4963.084,"end":4985.944,"text":"也許有很多國人或者也許在座的行政官員我都不確定你們清不清楚在行政院的強勢主導之下人工智慧基本法你們辛辛苦苦提出來這個草案跟規劃可以說是我們人工智慧發展的基本憲法關乎了人工智慧未來的整體走向包含科技的研發結果行政院一聲令下粗暴的做成這樣的決定"},{"start":4987.205,"end":5016.05,"text":"把AI人工智慧的這樣的一個觀點發展的主導權以及不管是方方面面的這個破壞的這個部分呢從國科會主委您的手中奪走轉交給速發部想請教一下主委您對於行政院院長直接下達指令將AI基本法的主管機關由國科會你們擬定草案現在整件事情要移交給速發部國科會是不是有在黨政會議上表達"},{"start":5017.17,"end":5031.508,"text":"您的意見或者抗議報告委員這個在行政院討論的時候我是有參與那還有速發部的黃部長以及林政委 劉政委是我們是共同認為接下來"},{"start":5032.93,"end":5061.943,"text":"AI基本法進到我們要實施的階段以後一定會碰到很多應用上的這個層面那應用的部分是速發部在主政所以包含這個爭議性的問題產業發展的問題都是速發部的主政範圍謝謝所以我剛剛問你嘛AI科研完成了沒你根本台灣還沒有發展科研人才也不夠你現在要說來做應用那我問主委剛剛我都理解請問要移交到速發部誰提出來的"},{"start":5063.772,"end":5084.381,"text":"是共同討論的我想這個文字上您既然在微笑我就不逼問了事實上您這個甩鍋的動作我不管這個鍋子是誰叫你甩的但實際上我是替在場的所有的國歌會的這些同仁報不平同時也對台灣的這個AI科研報不平"},{"start":5085.521,"end":5102.867,"text":"我們研議了一年結果呢我們整個AI的科研整個AI的基本法的這個所謂的根本大法呢包含了非常多的元素就這樣丟給速發部這是你們交給全民的答案嗎今天呢我們算了一下恰巧是主委您上任第三百天"},{"start":5103.627,"end":5126.682,"text":"不曉得主委是不是因為業務繁忙忘記了國科會的業務職長本席幫您複習一下根據國科會技術委員會組織法第二條第四以及第五款重大科技研發計畫及資源學術研究之推動這是第四款第五款產業前瞻技術研發與學研創新政策之綜合規劃協調及推動"},{"start":5128.903,"end":5157.159,"text":"這都是你們的職長業務啊這難道不屬於AI嗎這跟AI科技研發沒有關係嗎結果呢為什麼國科院主委就任由我們的行政院您剛剛這麼尷尬的微笑說共同討論還不願意講誰先提出來的這個科學嗎自我閹割把行政院呢將人工智慧切割給整塊切給書發部的主管一語不發本席其實曾經期待主委您兼任科技政委"},{"start":5159.64,"end":5174.685,"text":"1965億的科技預算我們剛剛看到了還有包含3000億的這個所謂的AI晶片的計劃然後我們今年事實上當時我們是希望您可以做美國有AI沙皇我們也希望有AI沙皇早一點來推動這些東西結果我們發現該不會有人想把您變成拿錢不辦事的AI太上皇其實我們的資料也已經表示了"},{"start":5184.528,"end":5204.191,"text":"其實國科會投入AI科研的預算52億今年您在這個總質詢也提到了整個部會今年度增加的預算高達120幾到130億相較之下速發部的本部和資安署都跟我們表示今年度沒有編列AI研發預算是沒有"},{"start":5205.111,"end":5232.937,"text":"只有產業署呢勉強編列5.9億跟數位產業研發相關的以預算規模來看國科會您就是他們的10倍啊老實說很可能還要100倍才夠那接下來我們AI科研的責任卻完全甩鍋給速發部我剛剛已經提過了沒有人才沒有研發你怎麼去提應用你是要應用美國人的東西要應用哪些其他外部的人的東西嗎事實上我們希望可以提醒您"},{"start":5234.079,"end":5254.471,"text":"我們現在要做的真的是科研你們不要把這種畫紅線的這種機制說這是AI最重要的點是不是可以請主委回覆一下你是否同意既然你說那AI基本法都交給他們做啦那52億的AI科研預算要不要就交給速發部來主導"},{"start":5257.076,"end":5274.105,"text":"報告委員剛剛委員提到說國會要負責AI的科研這個才是重點我非常同意這一點就是因為這個樣子接下來AI基本法我們請數學部來做主政的單位我要全心來發展我們AI的研究"},{"start":5274.725,"end":5295.852,"text":"那這個AI的研究除了我們編列在各個學術處都有這個相關的預算之外我們也會委請中研研究院也要來加強這一塊所以就是不同意嘛是不是AI科研還是要在國科會嘛在國科會AI科研在國科會但是AI基本法的主政將來牽涉到應用所以一定是很多的這個產業的問題報告主委我們認為這樣子有錢無責在研發的部分"},{"start":5302.874,"end":5317.751,"text":"老實說這真的會變成AI太上華不是您願意的也許啦但是希望要跟行政院去溝通本席要在此宣告AI的科研需要人才需要產業才有辦法應用最後我們當然同步要來討論安全"},{"start":5318.832,"end":5340.479,"text":"但是現在台灣的AI研發完全就還在要加速的時候結果您來我們的辦公室做討論您提到這樣子的一個規劃的做法是要讓速發部來畫紅線要對人權保障我們不反對這件事情但是我們真正要發展的根本都還沒做我們現在已經被人家批評我們的軟硬不平衡"},{"start":5342.58,"end":5357.48,"text":"都是硬體產業我們的AI為什麼沒有產業就是沒有足夠的人才沒有足夠的科研結果我們現在來做這樣的一個轉換老實說我真的認為對台灣的AI的發展是非常非常危險我就在此提出"},{"start":5358.881,"end":5378.517,"text":"這個我們之後還有很長的時間討論啦今天時間有限我想我還要再來談沒有電力就沒有AI所以我想今天還有一個議題要請教您2025年1月8號舉辦行政院2025科技顧問會議當中有強調減碳政策要考量總能源的需求及預期2050年少5000億度的電力需求"},{"start":5382.28,"end":5405.175,"text":"務實探討提前佈局建議碳費收益用於支持加速減碳的低碳能源研究發展請問主委會議結論提及的碳費收益用於支持低碳能源的研究發展其中低碳能源包不包含核能核能的相關研究能否適用於碳費收益的應用"},{"start":5407.373,"end":5425.392,"text":"第一就是這個碳費收益的應用我們在這個行政科技顧問會議的結論其實我們的環境部也有參與所以他們也有接到相關的訊息會議第二就是說我們所有的捷徑能源將來都會列為我們在發展的過程當中最適用"},{"start":5426.613,"end":5453.522,"text":"都是可以討論的選項都可以但是他的條件就是要安全我們得到社會人民的共識這樣子報告主委事實上核能就是低碳能源接下來核能預計拿多少比例的經費跟風電光電拿到的資源希望不要大小眼全世界都在研究核電根據氣候變遷因應法有規定碳費的收入要納入溫室氣體管理機間的應用"},{"start":5456.263,"end":5476.296,"text":"我們也幫您看過了這個基金對用途的相關規定不外乎執行各種碳排減量的工作而碳排減量有很多種AI有可能可以來幫助這件事情包含資料數位化包含能源管理的優化包含幫助產業優化能源的使用效率幫助再生能源的發電效率提升等等"},{"start":5477.176,"end":5504.296,"text":"由於AI對電力真的有非常大量的需求所以我們一邊可能要節省我們可能還是一邊要做新的能源的探索不管是既有核能的演繹重啟或者新核能的導入我們希望主委長自學AI創新內閣主委您在科技整體來講扮演的部會這個角色非常非常的重要也應該要非常非常的科學所以我最後希望對您有兩點期許第一點"},{"start":5506.943,"end":5532.457,"text":"我希望能夠這個國科會身為低碳能源的核能相關研究應用的一個非常重要的主管機關千萬不要受到非核家園神主牌的干擾我們有看到美國上個月也有新技術的突破2月26號有技術突破可以用核廢料來發電這樣子的一些新的做法包含更安全的核能我相信國科會應該要讓更多的研究人員來投入第二點"},{"start":5533.217,"end":5540.782,"text":"AI的耗能呢加上碳排的這個能源結構也有可能會造成一些影響所以希望國科會去思考AI對減碳這件事情能做到什麼樣的幫助我們能不能用更低耗能的方式來研發能源希望我們從這個角度去看呢我們今年度開增的碳費就也許是一個非常適合的財源希望主委能夠代替我們全國的科研的同仁好好的溝通如果有需要本席也可以從旁協助可以嗎謝謝委員"},{"start":5567.599,"end":5583.588,"text":"好謝謝葛如君委員好謝謝那我們這個接著繼續進行質詢我們有請陳秀寶委員質詢"},{"start":5595.53,"end":5622.627,"text":"謝謝主席 請國科委吳主委請主委備質詢 謝謝專委人好主委早安 首先還是要跟主委您討論您在出席大專院校校長會議的時候說到我們台灣沒有自己的諾貝爾獎得主覺得是丟臉的日韓都有他們本土培育的諾貝爾獎得主台灣一個都沒有 一定有問題那出了什麼問題呢 大學自己要檢討"},{"start":5624.709,"end":5643.166,"text":"國會近期也表示說會鼓勵本土研究落地相信會更有機會拿諾貝爾獎主任您覺得國會未來會用什麼方法來協助我國學者或者說您覺得以後我們學術的指標就是要以永多諾貝爾獎為主"},{"start":5645.546,"end":5661.435,"text":"謝謝陳委員我其實是覺得我們國科會每年編列這些科技算是非常寶貴的我們要好好的運用我希望能夠更有效率的來協助我們學界但是我們的學術界自己也要努力的來檢討我們自己的這個在"},{"start":5663.516,"end":5679.266,"text":"高等教育上面的一些制度這些制度其實不是只有政府的法令規章而是很多制度我們現在是學術自由嘛很多制度是學校自己要訂的那我是在鼓勵我們各大學特別是研究型的大學"},{"start":5680.526,"end":5703.335,"text":"能夠好好檢討我們自己是不是把很多的這個指標項目做了錯誤的這個解讀能夠來鼓勵我們的學界寶貴的人力做非常前瞻對人類社會有重大貢獻這種研究那創造人類的福祉如果能夠這樣做的話將來我們在全世界被認可的這個機會就大為提升得到各種"},{"start":5706.536,"end":5714.67,"text":"我想請教主委您覺得在諾貝爾獎的得獎類別之中我們哪一個領域會有比較高的得獎率"},{"start":5715.441,"end":5744.553,"text":"我們在各種科學領域其實我們都有非常好的人力很好的這個素質那但是在研究上面不要太短視精力也就是說只是為了要得到短期內得到很多論文的發表算這個paper的數量而是能夠長期做更重大的貢獻特別是在創新上面不要去追隨別人別人的研究只是想要因為那個領域很容易發表論文就追隨別人就"},{"start":5745.313,"end":5755.607,"text":"一直在同一個領域在那邊累積論文世界而是能夠創新創新這個才是最重要我相信說您是好意的啦那其實本席這邊要強調就是說諾貝爾獎的確是說在學術界在國際間是最重要也是最高的榮譽那台灣雖然目前沒有諾貝爾獎的得主"},{"start":5763.717,"end":5784.937,"text":"但是其實我國在國際間半導體是有很舉足輕重的地位那在民主國家中也是很優秀的很堅韌的民主自由在培養學者跟期待中我們可以調整腳步我們也可以轉變方向但其實我們還是要自我肯定我們國家我們國內這個優秀的科研技術溫暖的人文實力以及建立這個民主制度"},{"start":5785.666,"end":5803.088,"text":"我非常同意陳委員講的所以並不只是得到諾貝爾獎才能夠得到肯定是 我們的人力非常優秀台灣人是很聰明然後很勤奮的可是我們好好地鼓勵我們這些人員做創新的東西我們在全世界會被肯定的會更有機會"},{"start":5803.609,"end":5828.94,"text":"好 謝謝主委接下來再跟您請教關於台積電到美國設廠的這個問題台積電到美國投資一千億美元那相當多的這些供應商也紛紛表示說隨著台積電的東進那所以說台積電它到美國投資加上這些供應商它帶去的效益是一定超過一千億的那本席這邊要討論的是說如果台積電過去了供應商也過去了那台灣的戲盾會不會被削弱"},{"start":5830.084,"end":5848.383,"text":"報告委員我們的台積電它在台灣的投資其實是高於在國外的投資而且這個還在進行當中所以我們國科會在各個園區來協助台積電的發展這個腳步從來沒有停下來現在也沒有現在它的需求還在增加當中"},{"start":5849.304,"end":5868.898,"text":"主委我這邊想請教當從業者跟廠商都指出都明確的感覺到說台灣細鈍可能會被削弱的時候我們國科會這邊的想法跟做法是什麼我們有什麼方法可以作為說我們確保台灣的細鈍或是說當我們台灣在科技界被提及不再是因為台積電的時候那我們"},{"start":5869.739,"end":5876.706,"text":"剩下的優勢是什麼其實本席的憂慮也是我們一般的民眾看到這些報導他的憂慮其實我也知道說國科會這邊你們不僅是台灣基礎科研的推動者也應該是我們台灣科技這個關鍵的這些科技跟技術的領頭羊那如果我們台灣的西頓不在台灣的下一個護國神山是什麼是我們現在對在國際間也很"},{"start":5893.962,"end":5906.849,"text":"受重視的這些太空科技的產業或者說是我們還有其他的優勢那我希望說我們國科會這邊可以帶領因為國人看到這些報導一定會有憂慮那我也希望國科會可以為國人消除這些憂慮"},{"start":5908.91,"end":5936.789,"text":"對 謝謝委員我們的確在各個前瞻科技的這個領域我們都有投入所以不是只有半導體但是特別因為半導體現在對我們非常重要所以我們在半導體就有這個金創台灣計畫這個金創台灣計畫我們第一個重點就是要協助我們的這個半導體前瞻製程製造這個產業能夠持續保持優勢所以在學界投入我們在產業也投入所以這是一個第一個重點"},{"start":5938.129,"end":5944.314,"text":"在剛剛我們早幾天也提到這個AI的產業這個AI的產業的這個發展我們會從過去我們在製造為主的就是雲端伺服器以及當然半導體也是製造為主的這個產業我們會逐步發展到支持我們的百工百業"},{"start":5959.904,"end":5966.188,"text":"希望在各個行業您的意思是說我們不用焦慮說因為台積電到美國去投資了其實我們的優勢還是在的反而是因為我們台積電到美國去接觸到國際這些科技發達的國家我們更有實力在台灣能夠實現我們從半導體跟硬體製造來協助我們發展其他領域反而我們的優勢更為強大"},{"start":5985.86,"end":6007.19,"text":"謝謝主委您的說明接下來我想請教主委關於我們布拉格前進基地的狀況在去年你們有說會做調整但我想請教說你們現在目前調整如何我們要期待說這個設置目前這個設置可以提供未來我們在科研上有什麼其他的效益還有要請教說我們會不會在其他的國家再設置類似的這些基地或地點"},{"start":6008.53,"end":6030.438,"text":"我們原來在布拉格設立的那個基地是要派台灣派人到那邊去訓練他們的學生但是我們其實人力不足我們在台灣連自己的老師都不夠那其實根本沒有能力去做這個事情那其實捷克人也不會覺得台灣人去那邊用英語教他們學生會教得比較好老實講是不會啦"},{"start":6031.138,"end":6045.112,"text":"所以我改變政策就是我們加強跟捷克理工大學的雙邊真正進到前瞻半導體研究這個領域對雙方都好目前這個基地轉型為一個怎樣的設置它變成一個怎樣的性質是一個合作共同合作研究的一個基地"},{"start":6054.172,"end":6073.526,"text":"其實我這邊也理解就是說我們因為相關政策的規劃那我們在施行的時候也要符合就是不管是國際趨勢或整個的局勢的變化但是我們要將台灣的科技實力跟優勢如何進一步的協助到我們其他的盟友或是其他的國家優秀人才來吸引到台灣"},{"start":6074.266,"end":6079.331,"text":"我也希望說你們有一些更有亮點的規劃能夠更有一些實質的效益這個部分你們後續對這個轉型的這個基地的一些相關的規劃是不是也可以一份報告給我辦公室好沒問題謝謝陳委員接下來我想請教諸位"},{"start":6090.382,"end":6094.803,"text":"台鐵在今年1月的時候宣布跟災防中心我們要結合這個科技跟鐵路資源並且因應氣候的這個變遷來提升鐵路在極端氣候下的這個防災的韌性那我想請教主委目前進度怎麼樣我們這個研發的成果預計什麼時候可以投入使用那災防中心目前還有推動哪些跨部會的這些災防計畫的這個科研的相關的規劃"},{"start":6116.309,"end":6140.461,"text":"謝謝陳主任 這個計畫就是去年因為台鐵在花蓮山區因為土石流出了這個事故那個時候我就請我們災防中心要啟動一個計畫來協助台鐵因為整個全台灣所有的鐵公路這種巡檢現在都沒有人力沒有人力可以去做巡檢那現在你們進度怎麼樣那我們的進度我請陳主任來報告一下"},{"start":6141.77,"end":6161.935,"text":"委員好 我們大概跟台鐵簽下了合同以後 就MOU完了以後我們是定期每天都會提供即時的資訊給他們一些參考那我們跟各部會大概目前總共有17個單位已經跟我們有簽MOU了 謝謝那你們提供給台鐵的訊息大概有哪些"},{"start":6162.675,"end":6190.713,"text":"包括天氣的變化還有下雨的即時資訊下雨就是每個小時它的衝擊大致上在周遭的環境裡頭所有的訊息都會提供給它我們其實今年會啟動一個就是把它沿線所裝的監視攝影機AI化將來自動去做這個景色做分析就對了對 做分析景色因為現在沒有人力看那些攝影機了已經連看都沒有人力看了"},{"start":6191.373,"end":6215.445,"text":"更不用談這個巡檢本席在你們災防中心建設的這個3D災害詮釋地圖裡面有發現其實上面有一些資料災害的資料包括像土石流斷層淹水等等但是其中的這個淹水的這個詮釋模擬全台只有四個縣市有淹水模擬資料其中有三個縣市的資料是水利署提供台北市的資料是由市政府提供災防中心在建設淹水模擬圖"},{"start":6216.966,"end":6245.158,"text":"的時候有收集資料上的困難嗎為什麼我們其他縣市沒有辦法建置那如果是沒有困難的我希望說災防中心這邊可以盡速的將這個全台淹水模擬圖建置完成請問你們什麼時候可以完成報告委員其實我們都有建置因為主責單位有水役署啊他來建置這些淹水模擬那我們把這些圖層把它視覺化然後提供給各地你們都有建置但是現在資料上顯示只有四個縣市啊沒有顯示出來啊"},{"start":6246.884,"end":6266.531,"text":"我們會把它補齊 沒有問題會補齊 什麼時候補齊報告委員 這個也需要地方政府配合他們如果願意的話 其實我們資料都有我們都可以做這個分析 然後做這個預警那如果地方政府你們資料都有 但這不是你們建制的網站嗎你們要把資料放上去就可以了"},{"start":6269.641,"end":6273.545,"text":"主席請再給我一點時間我也要為我自己選區的鄉親來發聲其實我們受極端氣候的影響今年颱風來襲的時候災害發生也跟過往有些不同以前都是短時間強降雨造成的這些淹水的災情"},{"start":6288.763,"end":6294.345,"text":"但是在本席的選區沿海、彰化沿海、福清、深港地區頻頻出現了所謂的沿海的災情那在台灣的離島跟山區也曾出現過17起的超級的陣風這也是民眾很難以事先去預料的災害的情形"},{"start":6305.209,"end":6327.744,"text":"所以本席這邊會希望說災防中心也要跟氣象署跟農業部這邊要密切的合作將近年颱風所帶來的相關的災害情形數據呢能夠結合這個前世地圖讓民眾可以清楚的知道颱風來襲的時候需要做什麼防台的準備這個部分你們可以去研議嗎好 我覺得這部分我們可以把它加進來需要多久的時間"},{"start":6329.718,"end":6339.242,"text":"應該今年就可以其實我這邊我要特別提一下沿海造成的障礙其實它不同於下雨你可以去預估甚至可以實際測量那我提一下2023年10月小犬颱風沿海的地區有風大沒有下雨就是風很大然後這個鹽粒子都附著在這個配電線路上的礙子造成了雲加還有我們彰化超過13萬戶的停電我的選區甚至停電超過三天以上"},{"start":6357.21,"end":6370.234,"text":"那這個在之前其實有一些民間的氣象研究者他們又提出警示但是沒有受到你們的重視所以我會希望說既然他們提出的這個警示也造成真的有這樣的災損這是很有參考價值的我希望說你們來研議跟相關的部會像氣象署我們農業部合作之外也希望可以納入對"},{"start":6378.577,"end":6398.476,"text":"地方氣象比較熟知這個變化的這些民間的學者來配合把他們意見納入讓我們的民眾可以親切的比較明確的知道說當這個颱風來襲可能造成了災損的範圍或者情況是怎麼樣讓他們可以預先來做這個預防好 最後我們會納入 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":6402.097,"end":6411.759,"text":"好謝謝陳秀寶委員質詢感謝主委請回座還有部會官員那接著繼續進行質詢請張雅玲委員質詢謝昭偉我們有請主委有請主委備質詢謝謝"},{"start":6428.271,"end":6452.353,"text":"主委好,我想請問一下,因為大家今天都在討論有關於半導體的這件事情嘛那其實之前呢,總統出席外交春宴的時候也有提到說我們要打造一個非紅供應鏈來提升台灣的經濟韌性所以我今天也是要來這邊請教一下主委就是主委在2月15號的時候呢,其實在你的臉書上面也提到說半導體今天有這樣子的成就呢,其實是半世紀以來"},{"start":6453.334,"end":6480.463,"text":"我們自己努力辛苦取得的絕對不是輕易取自他國所以呢願意以台灣為基地來協助友善的民主國家來發展晶片設計晶圓製造和封裝測試那剛剛其實主委在對前面的質詢也都有說明這您認為這對我們來說是一個機會對不對是那我想請問一下根據這個機會我們的下一步的發展我們現在有沒有針對這些友善民主國家有一個比較"},{"start":6481.563,"end":6507.763,"text":"清楚的一個供應鏈的名單呢你說供應鏈就是我們國內的廠商嗎對我跟委員報告我們其實台灣所有的晶片廠商如果將來要發展這個民主供應鏈只要他是台灣設計台灣製造的都是我們的國家隊的隊員那我拜訪了所有的這些台灣重要的這個晶片設計廠商一家一家我都"},{"start":6508.911,"end":6527.049,"text":"分別跟他們談過每一個廠商其實都非常的樂意跟政府來配合雖然我們的廠商他的這個業務是全世界在佈局的但是其實談到這個對於某些國家他必須要使用這個民主供應鏈的"},{"start":6528.87,"end":6551.978,"text":"這樣的這個條件的時候我們台灣隊很快的就可以組起來這一點是沒有問題的我想問一下因為我想大家都比較清楚是台積電他們有說了先進製程還是技術還是留在台灣但是我想大家還是會擔心就是心中的這些您剛講的這些供應鏈他們都覺得非常有興趣但是相關的先進技術還是會以台灣為基地嗎因為我想這是大家最關心的一件事情"},{"start":6553.395,"end":6579.637,"text":"我們的這個先進製程的半導體晶圓製造的技術研發一定在台灣然後它的這個最先進的製程的量產也一定在台灣先完成以後才有辦法把它擴散到全球因為這個過程需要非常非常多條件這個條件現在全世界只有台灣是最成熟做的效率最高"},{"start":6579.977,"end":6595.233,"text":"那我了解就像聽起來就是說即便是我們會去有一些供應鏈他們是會跟著一起到以台灣為基地嘛擴散到全世界這些友善的民主國家但我想來了解一下就是說那有沒有一個相關的規劃時程呢"},{"start":6597.217,"end":6611.78,"text":"時程現在還不是很明確這個要看看市場的需求因為如果市場在當地的市場沒有很高的需求我們當然就不會說很快的就要全部都去那邊投資所以這種投資的行為一定是產業界自己決定"},{"start":6612.481,"end":6629.3,"text":"好 了解 那我想我就再講進入下一個主題就是說聯合國在2025年其實他們每一年都會指定特定的主題跟國際年的一個核心目的主要是在聚焦全球的一些關鍵議題還有凝聚國際的共識並且通過教育 科學以及文化"},{"start":6630.12,"end":6645.946,"text":"來推動一個跨國的一個永續發展那其實每一年的題目都非常的有趣過去我自己有看到就像什麼植物健康年啦或者是永續發展年啦用創意的經濟來促進這些文化產業的復甦啊等等的那您知道說今年的主題是什麼嗎"},{"start":6647.386,"end":6675.676,"text":"就委员有显示了这个对已经谢提了那我想问一下我想这个其实是有特别的纪念意义就是2025年的时候其实就是这一位海森堡他其实在1925年的时候就发表了一个矩阵力学成为现在量子力学的第一个完整理论的描述那到现在已经100年了所以今年就决议来作为百年量子启航的一个历史传承跟未来的展望那其实呢这个里面有一个重点"},{"start":6675.976,"end":6701.004,"text":"有三個重點就是說希望可以提升大眾對量子科學科技的一個重要性的認知那第二個呢就是加強跨國與跨領域的合作那第三個就是聚焦量子科學對永續發展的應用那其中呢在這個這裡面呢他還有講到這個發展的主題他們其實是希望說可以發展這個再生能源技術還有醫療與藥物開發以及金融安全與通訊加密"},{"start":6701.764,"end":6722.348,"text":"我想就是說針對這三個項目博客會現在可能也有一些相關的研究跟主題的一些計畫但是我在今年的業務報告其實是看不太出來是不是有偏重這幾個項目所以我想請教主委就是針對這一個量子力學年我們有沒有相關的一些計畫可不可以簡單說明一下委員這個問題我可不可以請我們資源處處長"},{"start":6729.72,"end":6749.66,"text":"今天是量子年 那我們物理界跟物理學門 包括含有物推中心都有辦一系列的活動 總共有七項包括這個4月12號在這個台北101有個量子點燈的儀式 大概是這樣 這個活動揭開序幕"},{"start":6750.509,"end":6763.867,"text":"好我想因為我還是蠻想要了解有沒有一些更詳細的一些計畫啦研究的部分但如果時間有限的話我想就到時候提供給我一些詳細的內容好不好好的那還有就是說其實在2022年呢博客會其實也針對了基礎科學促進發展"},{"start":6765.889,"end":6793.375,"text":"國際年IYBSSD其實辦過相關的活動那時候還特別邀請到了蔡英文總統來親臨到現場祝福要來講這個紮根科學永續台灣讓更多的民眾了解科學跟永續發展的密不可分我想針對這一系列的活動其實在包含今天的報告裡面其實也都有講到就是說我們其實投入了相當多的一些費用我先等一下"},{"start":6795.97,"end":6822.218,"text":"我們其實投過了相當多的費用那在世界也取得了不錯的成績到現在其實已經投入了80億那下一步下一步呢就是當我們如何扎根基層就是我們如何把這些研究的實力一磅一磅的傳下去那其實我們有一些科普列車我們也有Kids Science我們也有台灣科技新創基地那我們今年會有相關的活動把這個量子力學放進去嗎"},{"start":6822.961,"end":6851.898,"text":"好 謝謝委員這樣的建議我們其實在量子國家隊裡面在台大我們有購置IBM的量子運算的設備他們也很努力想要開發一些有關量子運算的科普的基層教育的活動我想也許我們自然處可以來跟台大討論一下看看能不能把這一項加到我們的科普教育裡面"},{"start":6852.378,"end":6868.571,"text":"好 科普教育部分 那我想就是科普列車我想爭取一下 科普列車啦Kids Science這些其實是對小孩去做這些更基礎的科普的部分是不是也可以一起納入呢有沒有這個機會好 在教育的部分我們會努力讓小朋友聽得懂那樣子"},{"start":6870.993,"end":6886.765,"text":"對 那我想就是這個延續下來就是說作為一個負責任的委員我們剛爭取了活動項目那我也要想要了解這個預算上是不是可以來支持因為其實在今年我們是史上坎福第一的預算案"},{"start":6887.506,"end":6901.935,"text":"那我就會想要知道 那錢到底在哪裡因為其實有很多委員都有爭取一些活動嘛那因為根據土地總署呢 其實立法院決議要求636億元由行政院自行調行之那"},{"start":6903.676,"end":6911.338,"text":"這一切呢其實我不確定說我們現在主委清楚這些對於國會現在的業務國會的部分我們其實非常感謝我們交融會的委員對我們相當的支持我們受到刪減的部分大概"},{"start":6920.841,"end":6944.508,"text":"29億多啦就是統三 這其實是統三的部分然後我們的業務費受到的影響比較大就是凍結的部分比例比較高包含園區是希望說我們報告送到委員會來送到立法院希望能夠盡快解凍因為很多的這個規劃在年初就要開始"},{"start":6945.188,"end":6968.584,"text":"好 我了解是是對 那我想問一下因為其實之前您國客會也有發布在11月27號有一個新聞是因應財化法的修法將會有200億元會受到影響認為這個是對於台灣的科技發展非常非常的不利好 那這個部分呢其實再加上我們的預算審查的一個結果我想先請教一個第一個問題是"},{"start":6970.305,"end":6995.7,"text":"之前我們在詢問這個主委的時候其實你有提到說我們希望可以組成一個AI算力國家隊我們要把我們的算力達到480 petafloss在2028年那時候會到亞洲前三全球前十AI的準備度也會到全球前十那AI是全球競爭最重要的一個重點項目大家都在衝那依據這個才化法還有如果以今年的立法院的預算刪減會不會影響你的目標達成呢"},{"start":6998.479,"end":7022.525,"text":"我們今年在AI算力建制本來一開始在委員會審查之後其實是有受到一些刪減那我也是極力在辯護啦後來有測案所以也非常感謝我們的委員願意支持國科會的這個說法那目前我們今年的預算如果能夠按照"},{"start":7027.507,"end":7045.555,"text":"這個決議來執行的話今年我們的算力會受到影響會比較小但是我比較重點就是說因為政府的這一點投入會引起民間也願意再投更多的錢所以我相信今年民間的這個投入遠高於這個政府的投入我們台灣的這個排名應該會往前邁進"},{"start":7047.196,"end":7070.105,"text":"好像才化法的部分會影響嗎?才化法是我比較憂心的因為當初立法院通過的時候是決議好像說馬上要執行我就非常擔心會影響到今年那現在才化法如果明年要執行的話我們現在已經在編明年的預算恐怕我們也沒有辦法按照我們現在預計的可以編列讓我們的科技預算"},{"start":7071.665,"end":7093.711,"text":"穩定的能夠成長所以我當然也是希望說立法院這邊能夠在財化法修正案能夠有在討論的空間能夠讓我們重要的發展因為科技預算是中央政府在主政很難讓地方分散來執行是非常困難希望能夠維持我們科技預算"},{"start":7093.971,"end":7117.629,"text":"所以簡單來說啦就是說財化法的部分把錢撥到地方之後可能會影響到我們相關的科技研究還有像是我們AI的這些算力的建制嘛對不對對於我們之前講的這些目標達成是的確存在困難的嘛所以我想這個因為財化法其實已經國民黨跟民眾黨已經否決要復議了啦所以基本上就只能靠大家民眾一起來把我們這些"},{"start":7119.151,"end":7127.917,"text":"主委把這些影響來告訴我們的民眾讓大家知道這個對國家的一些影響這些再請主委多多跟大家來做說明謝謝謝謝委員謝謝張雅玲委員的質詢主委請回座那待會我們在林益錦委員質詢後我們休息五分鐘那我們接著繼續質詢請吳佩奕委員質詢"},{"start":7146.769,"end":7151.656,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我請國科會吳承文主委好 請吳主委備諮詢 謝謝吳委員好"},{"start":7157.469,"end":7179.546,"text":"好 主委好主委 國會會是負責我們台灣的科技發展那現在全球也都在競爭AI 量子 太空等各項領域晶片更是台灣科技與產業的重中之重所以事實上呢你們國會會的業務影響到的是台灣在全球的競爭力也是台灣在全球民主供應鏈中的戰略地位"},{"start":7181.347,"end":7205.617,"text":"這是非常重要也關乎到國家的安全所以剛剛在前面各黨派的委員對國科會其實都相當的重視尤其包括你們的科研人才等等的大家都很重視也代表大家都很支持那我們要保持台灣的科技優勢同時要追趕先進國家當然也就需要預算的支持"},{"start":7207.048,"end":7228.435,"text":"所以我們知道在全球的競爭當中其實台灣有很大的追趕空間我看了幾個數字第一在太空領域今年太空中心的預算是47億這其實已經是這幾年來因為政府的重視已經有增加了因為三年前太空中心一年只有34億"},{"start":7229.955,"end":7253.91,"text":"根據之前我們獲得的資訊韓國每一年給太空的發展的預算是190億這是台灣的三到四倍第二在AI領域我們要提升算力這之前主委也講過算力就是我們國力要有國家對所以國科會現在是分三期投入170億要提升我們台灣的AI算力我看了一個英國有一個評比各國的AI指數"},{"start":7255.931,"end":7258.493,"text":"台灣是26名算是中斷班那在亞洲國家目前新加坡是第三韓國第六日本是12所以呢我們也有很大的進步的空間電腦工會就呼籲說台灣的政府在AI資源的挹注應該要繼續的增加繼續的支持"},{"start":7277.805,"end":7297.975,"text":"但是呢剛剛主委前面質詢其實也提到對於才化法通過對於未來我們國科會業務所會造成衝擊的憂心我們行政院主計長在立法院答詢的時候他提到新法的才化法通過之後中央會減少3753億"},{"start":7301.684,"end":7315.285,"text":"平均來換算的話每一個部會會通刪減28%但是我們如果考量國安國防部的預算不動的話每一個部會會刪減的比例可能會高達到37%"},{"start":7317.768,"end":7342.682,"text":"這是近四成衝擊一定是非常之大所以我現在想要請問主委才化法因為通過它是在明年嘛但是你們已經在準備明年度的預算了未來如果國科會的預算要去減少到將近四成37%對我們的科技領域創新發展像是晶片AI太空等各領域目前的初步的評估大概會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":7346.485,"end":7364.537,"text":"那我其實有報告過說我對這個非常憂心因為我們很多非常重要的科技研發的項目其實都是我們審慎規劃要全力執行的那如果說有哪些項目因為這個樣子需要是 請問能不能列舉幾項項目"},{"start":7367.386,"end":7383.081,"text":"我們所有的重大項目就是AI半導體這是重中之重我們的量子科技沒錯其實我看過你們提出的資料因為每一項都非常的重要都是台灣在追趕先進國家我們都在努力當中"},{"start":7384.369,"end":7391.75,"text":"如果說按照我們這個今年度的預算比例先來試算的話我們的四大重點領域基礎科研408億未來會影響衝擊的會減少到122億精創與人工智慧107億受影響的會有近32億太空科研43億會影響減少13億淨零科技研究10.8億會影響到要減少3.2億"},{"start":7411.374,"end":7414.795,"text":"這個比例都非常之大影響到我們整個國家的科研科研都是長期的發展不是只有明年後年下一個五年十年的台灣科研會受到多麼大的衝擊所以剛剛我前面聽到我覺得非常好我們各黨派的立委都很支持你們國科會科資院委員關心基礎科研人才的流失我們要給予支持林沛翔委員關心我們的這個AI相關等等的研究"},{"start":7440.365,"end":7457.821,"text":"都要給予支持但是支持是什麼預算的支持啊有預算才有計劃尤其是為什麼國科會要新增計劃新增預算因為有新增業務我們都在努力發展嘛主委我想請問除了國科會以外對於大學的研究經費因為你們國科會才化法若通過預算受到衝擊會不會影響到我們大學裡面的研究呢"},{"start":7466.898,"end":7484.28,"text":"如果真的是按照這樣執行的話的確會影響在你們的基礎科研裡面122億嘛這裡面是不是很多是在大學裡面很多教授學者的研究計畫大部分都是學研單位就是大學教授沒有錯"},{"start":7485.141,"end":7503.38,"text":"對 那一般呢各個領域都會影響都會影響到嘛不是只有我們國科本會的業務而已是那一般我們明年度的研究計畫是不是今年就要提出申請今年年底嘛今年年底要申請對 我們現在有沒有預估大概影響衝擊會有多少因為研究計畫包含了什麼裡面有研究計畫人員"},{"start":7504.801,"end":7515.949,"text":"很多是這個助理我也當過計畫的助理研究人員中研院也做出一個預估因為他們今年的業務被凍結了11億他們去評估說凍結11億會影響到中研院將近3000名的研究助理這當中很多都是碩士班等等的在學生都是我們未來潛在的博士人才所以說這個部分我希望國科會也可以來進行一個評估"},{"start":7530.459,"end":7557.039,"text":"市長跟委員報告大家可能會覺得說就是影響可能三成那如果是通商的話即使是通商三成影響也不是只有三成為什麼因為我們現在國科院的計畫主持人主持會已經調升了然後我們加薪的部分不是只有我們的公務人員教師而已我們連助理也都是一起加薪所以這些人事費用你不能給他砍三成"},{"start":7557.879,"end":7569.751,"text":"所以你真正可用的研究經費是遠比減三成還要嚴重所以這部分我是希望大家能夠理解對 我們都希望說立法院能夠在"},{"start":7571.004,"end":7577.666,"text":"有沒有補救的機會但是現在附議案已經被否決但我現在能夠做的我能夠做的是我必須提醒署委我希望你們可以先來評估這個人會衝擊到的在大學裡面研究助理的人數因為其實我好多我們在學校裡面的朋友都在擔心說他們明年到底還有沒有這個工作因為假設明年沒工作他現在也要開始去找他的出路當然我們希望不要那算是請你們先開始評估並且預先告知好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":7600.652,"end":7609.261,"text":"好那我剛剛講了這些我們真的非常的重視尤其是太空三期計畫主任你知道我很重視每一次我都質詢因為好不容易過去本來我們的太空計畫預算是291億主任沒關係因為我今天不會問到細節就請回座"},{"start":7618.211,"end":7627.695,"text":"那後來好不容易加碼 加碼到了是400億可是因為如果財化法通過 明年又要減少38%等於我們的這個加碼 又被砍掉重練 大會原形我們要怎麼樣去繼續的來進步然後衛星其實牽涉到通訊韌性 這都是台灣的國家安全"},{"start":7641.241,"end":7644.503,"text":"所以呢我真的是相當的憂心我也要拜託本會教文會所有的委員大家我聽到大家的質詢內容其實都相當的理性也都非常支持國科會的各項業務但是我們必須要務實的去考量有計劃有業務就必須要有相等的"},{"start":7661.09,"end":7664.751,"text":"預算來去進行支持也希望國科會要讓國人知道我目前我們的發展受到什麼樣可能的影響接下來因為今年國科會有一個計畫相當關注是台灣運動文化研究專案"},{"start":7676.576,"end":7692.885,"text":"因為主委你過去也是少棒國手也參加過威廉博特所以呢你其實本身也就是我們台灣運動史的一部分那因為去年也感謝立法院跨黨派的立委大家共同支持修法通過今年八月預計我們希望運動部可以掛牌成立那我跟這個陳培宇委員也開了立法院開一個公聽會就是在關注我們台灣運動文化記憶的保存我們邀請到了"},{"start":7705.112,"end":7728.985,"text":"資深的職棒選手周董周思齊來與會他就提到一個呼籲希望呢台灣在運動部成立之後能夠有一個運動博物館所以我想現在國科會這個運動文化研究專案非常重要能不能跟我們說明一下這個專案要預期達成什麼樣的目標目前政見情形如何謝謝委員我很感謝我們的人文處提出這個專案因為運動"},{"start":7732.487,"end":7760.856,"text":"變成是我們文化的一部分這個對國家的這個將來文明的提升是非常重要的因為過去我們都把這個運動都只講體育而已那體育的話就限縮在是在教育的這個層面但是運動是跟人的這個身心的健康是息息相關的從小到到中老希望能夠運動是變成我們整個生活工作各個層面文化的一部分這樣才會"},{"start":7761.776,"end":7785.893,"text":"讓我們的國力更為強大所以這是我們最終極的目標那這樣子的話我希望我們的學界好好研究一下怎麼樣把運動從原來的只是一個體育競技運動的項目體育教育把它變成是我們真正文化的一部分就是我們成立運動部也是很重要的任務那這個研究會變成將來我們在政府施政上很重要的參考的依據這樣"},{"start":7786.493,"end":7799.009,"text":"好 我想我們都很期待國會這個研究也希望這個研究未來也可以協助我們國家運動部成立之後對於台灣運動文化保存的發展是好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":7800.922,"end":7823.793,"text":"謝謝吳佩玉委員的質詢 主委請回座 謝謝那還是有必要這個說明一下這個國科會的預算今年度是比去年度增加132億同時才化法呢也還沒有做部會的劃分那我們要相信行政院這個發展科研的決心那我們下一位接著請林一錦委員質詢"},{"start":7829.191,"end":7832.396,"text":"謝主席 有請吳主委吳主委 被質詢 謝謝林委員好主委好"},{"start":7840.601,"end":7867.427,"text":"賴總統在上個禮拜的公開談話中他有強調說為了強化國安與因應統戰威脅尤其是面對中國日益最嚴重的網路攻擊那相關的主管機關應採取積極的有效作為防止中國透過網路應用程式AI等工具對台灣進行認知作戰及危害的治安那"},{"start":7868.167,"end":7891.697,"text":"國科會作為我國推動這個科技發展的主管機關我想針對我國諸多的關鍵的基礎設施以及這個國家核心關鍵的技術我們應該要進行相對應的防務作業並且跟速發部來合作推動資安的學術研究 落實資安的跨域聯防"},{"start":7892.617,"end":7920.877,"text":"那除了可以防止中國竊取我國關鍵技術的機密當然也要防禦任何形式的資安威脅那再來我們來看這則新聞法新社報導俄國的假訊息陣大量的混入西方的AI系統那藉由各個大型的語言模型灌注大量支持克里姆尼宮的假資訊來扭曲這個聊天機器人產生的內容從而在全國散播這種"},{"start":7922.219,"end":7942.979,"text":"輕惡的言論那本席認為我們如果來看兩岸的資訊戰的狀況散佈假訊息影響AI這種狀況不可能不會發生而且極有可能已經相關的網路攻擊在進行所謂的污染台灣人民使用AI這種情形所以綜合以上的這個資訊 諸位"},{"start":7944.821,"end":7965.157,"text":"上個禮拜總統的談話是否已經收到要進行關鍵基礎設施加強防護還是說國家資安防禦總檢討的指示還是說又或者國科會已經在從事什麼樣的防禦工作另外有關我國要開發AI的"},{"start":7968.88,"end":7976.277,"text":"對話模型Tide那是否有機制來防堵假訊息去影響這個Tide產出 主委"},{"start":7976.943,"end":8003.089,"text":"我們現在其實有在鼓勵我們的學界在研發相關的這個技術希望能夠用AI來提升我們的這個治安的能力那對於這個防堵假訊息去辨識跟防堵這部分其實國科會跟數碼部也會密切的合作相關的這個預算編列我們也會協助未來這個AI的研究我們希望從目前台德是以國科會為主"},{"start":8005.65,"end":8026.847,"text":"我們今年的台德計畫放到國網中心我們的重點就是要建立平台讓各式各樣的應用能夠基於我們台德所建立的基礎能夠發展出來接下來我們希望把模型的研究的主力能夠擴散到學界到產業界"},{"start":8028.869,"end":8047.198,"text":"以及到這個中央研究院能夠擴散開來讓它能夠加速那剛剛委員提到的這個包含國家安全相關的我們在機器人在低軌衛星在無人機我們也都投入相對的這個資源也在加速的發展好"},{"start":8048.719,"end":8053.063,"text":"再來我想跟你談一談我們的科技預算因為上個會期總預算的審查之亂許多部會關鍵預算遭到藍白兩黨無差別的動感"},{"start":8064.073,"end":8088.942,"text":"那我想國科會有回覆本辦公室說通案刪減的預算將影響以投入佈局的一些基礎科研跟精創人工智慧等等那至於二十案的凍結案那也將會推遲我國科研在世界版圖的搶先佈局那可能導致我國科技會落後一些競爭國家"},{"start":8090.683,"end":8120.303,"text":"那產業及科技的人才斷層還有不利產業轉型並造成經濟衰退的風險那本席針對這個預算的影響主要進行幾點的關心首先我國現在的半導體跟晶片的產業如何受到預算通商的影響那是不是會使主委你宣示的AI產業化產業AI化會受到推遲主委"},{"start":8121.224,"end":8142.919,"text":"今年我們的預算剛剛其實召委有補充說到我們這個決算數就立法院審完這個決算數跟去年相比大約增加了100億但是這個100億就是在我們新體的還有像太空科技等等很多地方是非常重要大家也都知道是必須要提升"},{"start":8143.739,"end":8156.003,"text":"我們也非常感謝教文委員會所有的委員的支持,沒有砍更多但是剛剛委員提到說,財化法是我比較憂心的"},{"start":8158.884,"end":8182.706,"text":"財務法如果執行的話,那將來其實我也覺得行政院可能會非常的為難如果要保障國防預算,那是不是要保障科技預算可是我們的衛福預算,我們的長照也是迫切需要錢那我們的這個資安的部分,速發部經費也是被大砍"},{"start":8184.428,"end":8204.538,"text":"那將來在財務法的修正的狀況之下幾乎沒有一個部會它可以說不受影響這是其實對行政來講是非常為難那國科會也很難在這種狀況之下說希望政府其他的東西就盡量砍不要砍我的科技預算我也很難這樣去"},{"start":8205.618,"end":8225.499,"text":"去幫我們整個學界來捍衛這樣的預算所以我還是期待我們的財務法修正案能夠有機會能夠調整調整回我們原來規劃的這個狀況因為主委還蠻重要的是因為科技的研發跟應用其實是需要大量跟外國交流的領域"},{"start":8226.3,"end":8250.944,"text":"那我們也可以看到國科會其實我們幾乎每個月都有派團去跟外國的單位進行交流那藉由交流來提升我們彼此的科學研發技術可是在業務費遭到這個所謂的統三之後那是否這個會降低我們跟外國交流的頻率那導致我們台灣的科研在國際上沒有辦法佔有一席之地這部分你不擔憂嗎還是有什麼因應之道"},{"start":8254.795,"end":8275.103,"text":"我們當然是擔憂啦但是相對來講在國科會被刪減的幅度沒有那麼大狀況之下我們會盡量用邀請國外的合作對象到台灣來的方式來支應這一部分的需求"},{"start":8276.24,"end":8280.583,"text":"好 那談到國外的交流 剛剛您回答秀寶委員的部分捷克我們本來要佈局一個精創核基地現在改成研究導向"},{"start":8291.431,"end":8307.143,"text":"那我請教主委這個政策的調整的利益在哪裡那我們希望達到什麼樣的成效那同時自從這個研究辦公室啟用開始之後那目前到底執行上有展現什麼樣的成果這部分是不是請主委說明一下"},{"start":8307.663,"end":8321.639,"text":"我剛剛有說明說我們原來那個辦公室成立是以台灣的這個教學的人力去支援友好國家在半導體的這個教育但是台灣的人力資源已經非常不足所以其實是沒有能力"},{"start":8322.54,"end":8340.635,"text":"去支援很多的國家協助他們在這方面的教育而且呢其實半大體的領域的這個教育也不是說這些國家他們不能做他們的目標其實只是想要鏈接台灣的製造的能力所以以這一點來講我就修正了我們的這個政策的做法"},{"start":8342.016,"end":8366.677,"text":"我們的半導體的製造不僅在美國在歐洲歐洲現在是德國在日本其實是在協助當地能夠把他們的製造能力再提升上來但是這個過程當中我們也希望能夠對我們有利對我們有利的方法就是說一方面協助我們的廠商在當地能夠有更多的人力的資源可以使用第二個就是說希望"},{"start":8368.158,"end":8389.99,"text":"技術水準的提升不是只有在台灣閉門造區透過因為台積電的關係我們可以跟這些國家來合作做先進製程相關技術的研究前瞻的研究也可以提升我們自己的技術當我們未來在台灣在建立我們的先進製程的發展的時候會更為有利所以我就調整了這樣的策略"},{"start":8392.07,"end":8411.342,"text":"可是如果我們看捷克理工大學副校長在中央社的專訪中有特別提到說雙邊的合作能面臨一些挑戰包括資金模式的建立研究項目的選擇跟如何平衡學術跟產業的需求等等那請問他為什麼會提出這些問題"},{"start":8413.079,"end":8425.249,"text":"他們當然是希望說台灣能夠付出多一點那我們的確有編列相關的預算這個問題現在其實已經解決了也就是說他現在其實很滿意如果現在去問他他應該很滿意了"},{"start":8427.811,"end":8457.157,"text":"另外最後請教主委本席有看到我們國科會對於台灣原住民的研究有投入相當的程度也補助很多的研究涵蓋人文 自然跟生科的領域但是有關於原住民知識體系保存的運作其實我們可以多加利用數位保存的工法所以請教主委能夠加強台灣原住民各種知識體系的數位保存嗎有沒有辦法說我們善用AI的技術"},{"start":8458.598,"end":8478.511,"text":"好,謝謝林委員,我覺得這個想法很好,那我願意支持,如果說我們原住民的學界或者是我們一般學界的學者願意來研究,來支持這個原住民的文物的保存利用這個數位化,用AI來做這個整理,來做資料的保存跟應用,我們都會非常支持"},{"start":8478.871,"end":8496.831,"text":"好 那也要拜託主委 我自己的選區有新化 那有西拉雅的聚落所以西拉雅族群也想請您替我發聲 替西拉雅發聲就是說做這個研究的時候 是不是也投入平埔族原住民的研究"},{"start":8497.695,"end":8507.358,"text":"好,謝謝林委員,這一點我們會把他納進來,應該沒問題好,謝謝主委,謝謝林委員謝謝林警召委,謝謝吳主委請回座,我想接下來我們就休息五分鐘,謝謝"},{"start":8851.547,"end":8854.73,"text":"好 接著繼續進行質詢 請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席 有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":8874.127,"end":8901.209,"text":"吳委員好主委好我在2021年也就是三年多前曾經質詢過當時的科技部國發會的前身那我那時候呢其實是有鑒於我們國科會或者是過去的科技部他是負責我們知識的管理學門的分類所以當時呢我有特別要求說"},{"start":8902.33,"end":8918.695,"text":"做一個原住民研究學門的評估那當時呢我很感謝因為有提到這個學門要增設原住民族研究作為次領域那我當時非常高興而且呢也有經過110年度複審會議討論的決議說要把法律學經濟學以及社會學三個學門呢要增設"},{"start":8927.737,"end":8942.744,"text":"原住民族研究的次領域我當時非常的高興我也有發臉書不過我不知道主委您知不知道時至今日我們原住民族研究有沒有真正被放入次領域"},{"start":8945.567,"end":8967.89,"text":"報告委員這一點我還不是很清楚跟委員報告就是說依照目前我們在人文處裡頭的各個學門裡頭事實上都有原名相關的研究主題以去年的研究為例分佈在各個學門的原名相關研究大概就有46件那這樣我知道了"},{"start":8968.47,"end":8992.21,"text":"我要講的就是這件事當時我會這樣子做質詢就是因為看到原住民的研究領域只有被放在主題市那就我所知就是這三年多來其實還是沒有雖然當時有做出決議也給我回覆但是還是沒有我知道的是你們仍舊"},{"start":8993.251,"end":9018.27,"text":"用五千多萬的專案來替代所以我一開始我希望主委您還是要重視這個問題因為這個跟我接下來要問的問題是有關係的我希望這個部分我還是重新的要來要求那既然國科會是負責知識的管理 學門的分類那我不曉得說 主委在您的認知什麼叫做知識體系"},{"start":9024.424,"end":9046.5,"text":"就是我想這個很難定義啦好那主委我跟您說我的看法是這樣因為這幾年有一個110到114的補助原住民知識體系你知道編列多少錢嗎五年編列18.6億您認為多還是不多"},{"start":9051.232,"end":9078.334,"text":"這個要看有多少研究的人因為我自己也不敢講多還是不多我們當然希望越多越好但是我不知道我們的成果到底有沒有等量奇觀但是我現在知道的是說我們的原住民族的研究啊既沒有學門作為次領域然後呢你們給予的這一些所謂的專案補助計畫國科會也沒有上位的一個概念"},{"start":9079.335,"end":9106.093,"text":"我就不懂 那原住民的知識體系到底要怎麼建構起來那現在我們的法源在原基法的第五條寫著中央原住民主管機關要會商 教育 科技 文化等主管機關來建構原住民族知識體系現在我們原住民的知識體系建構的情形主委 你有人跟你報告過嗎"},{"start":9108.508,"end":9110.192,"text":"還沒有 你看沒有嘛 我跟您說今天你們業務報告喔"},{"start":9116.83,"end":9136.9,"text":"02頁只有占第87頁占三分之一頁的篇幅就這樣而已整個計畫18.6億就這樣而已所以呢我要講的是說這個是有法源的也就去編列了這樣的一個法定預算經費好那現在我要問喔這邊有一個圖啊"},{"start":9140.243,"end":9167.225,"text":"有一個建構的圖說是排灣族的知識體系請問一下主委你看到這樣的一個圖你認為它是屬於什麼他說叫分類架構他把排灣族的知識體系分類成這樣下一頁你看這個喇喇族他也把他的知識你看建構成這樣那到底知識體系的建構要怎麼建構沒有人知道說不清楚"},{"start":9169.24,"end":9176.68,"text":"這麼重要的東西都說不清楚所以恐怕我要問進度跟成效諸位你應該也講不出來對不對因為沒有人跟你報告過"},{"start":9178.032,"end":9204.698,"text":"沒有嘛好那我跟您說其實你們是這樣子講的齁當時你們說要配合建構原住民知識體系說這個中長期計畫要分三個面向第一個叫知識建構第二個呢叫知識實踐第三個叫做雲端服務然後五年110到114今年是第五年18.6億要來做我知道的是"},{"start":9206.356,"end":9217.358,"text":"我們的原民會分配給國科會你們是要做雲端的服務那我真的不曉得說我該怎麼問下去你們到底執行了多少當時你們的經費佔比我來看好了這個是我們的那個概算表國科會的經費佔比是4.2億到底有沒有做我請我們處長好 謝謝處長是 報"},{"start":9234.227,"end":9255.72,"text":"報告委員就是剛剛最主要的那18億主要的預算可能是我們園民會那邊執行你們分配到4.2是在我們國科會這邊我們除了剛剛的這一個有一個專案每年是5800萬的這一個就是我們族群跟園民的特殊專案之外就是我們當年希望變次領域結果你們把它變成是專案補助5000多萬"},{"start":9256.4,"end":9268.886,"text":"喔不就是說他除了這個是專案補助之外剛剛跟委員報告每年有46件的那個執行案他不是在這個專案他是分布在各個那處長我懂了因為我下一頁就是要講這個我們看到這個知識體系中長城計畫當中"},{"start":9274.649,"end":9294.091,"text":"國科會這邊是說補助學生做一個原住民知識研究五年預計要補助八十件另外一個是補助學者推動原住民族的知識研究五年預計要補助兩百四十五件那再請教處長目前總共補助幾件"},{"start":9295.942,"end":9320.541,"text":"假如是以我們每年大概在各個學門有46件來看的話所以五年確實就是會有200多件那另外有關於學生的部分是我們補助大專生的研究計畫那這個部分的資料我們可能要再盤點一下應該是沒有問題的因為我看起來可能要到辦公室我們要來溝通討論一下因為我真的是不曉得說該要怎麼講"},{"start":9321.522,"end":9336.91,"text":"你看這個文化知識體系的中長城計畫建制援助民族知識數位資料庫主辦是科技部那我想說目前的進度如何有跟園民會合作嗎跟委員報告這是另外一個計畫就是說我們有請鄭大官大為老師協助的這個資料庫大概每年是2600萬左右那目前這個計畫也正在執行中"},{"start":9350.962,"end":9374.935,"text":"所以這個是政大有來主辦是我們請關老師協助的一個那請教您知不知道這一些跟現在園民會主辦的各個族群的原住民知識體系建構那個計畫它有一個連通性嗎我知道他們彼此都有互相的一個非常綿密的一個協調"},{"start":9376.167,"end":9403.849,"text":"所以是互相撈計畫嗎照理說應該是你們撈到那邊的計畫要做雲端處理對不對有做雲端處理嗎還是說政大做的那個計畫其實就跟現在東華大學他們分配給各個大學做的知識體系差不多應該以國科的角度在研究的部分後設分析的部分會比較多一點那中間應該會有綿密的一個交流"},{"start":9404.844,"end":9433.446,"text":"那有成果報告出來嗎?每一年?是是每一年都有成果的報告那長什麼樣子你知道嗎?裡面寫什麼東西你知道嗎?我曾經看過一個成果他要做一個泰雅族的課綱喔他四年用兩千多萬喔一年五百多萬喔成果報告繳出來那個課綱長的樣子就是幾頁而已喔"},{"start":9437.202,"end":9450.815,"text":"到底知識體系是什麼做出來到底長什麼現在AI的時代來臨了我也看到國科會你們有一個版本人工智慧基本法那現在我要講的是說現在這個基本功其實"},{"start":9456.143,"end":9468.007,"text":"連我們國科會都說不出來知識體系是什麼更何況怎麼做知識的分類那這個基本功都已經亂七八糟我可以這樣講嗎那如果導入AI怎麼辦呢看綠啊看綠啊"},{"start":9471.143,"end":9491.552,"text":"無論如何我覺得國科會責無旁貸就是要來負責這些所謂知識的一個盤點儲存跟管理那現在如果要導入雲端要結合AI那我就覺得更恐怖啦為什麼呢因為科技始終來自於人性更何況我們已經看到很多報告"},{"start":9492.532,"end":9521.53,"text":"AI也會複製再製歧視喔因為它收集到的各種全世界各地原住民的資料收集很少喔所以當我們只是這樣子去撈資料我們的知識體系只是搜尋這些文獻文獻裡面已經很多歧視的不正確錯誤的資料我們再拿來做索引做關鍵字做雲端資料我覺得這個是很可怕的一件事"},{"start":9522.935,"end":9543.78,"text":"所以在這個部分我真的是希望說我們國科會我們既然來主責我們知識的分類我希望這個分類建構國科會還是要拿出態度那因為今年已經是第五年那過去我們也沒有在預算上面多做刁難苛責"},{"start":9545.76,"end":9562.074,"text":"但是今年是第五年而且會影響到要不要有第二期因為這個叫中長期計劃我們覺得非常的堪憂所以這個部分我在這邊特別提醒也希望說我們國科會協同園民會針對"},{"start":9564.135,"end":9579.948,"text":"這幾年的一個原住民族知識體系的建構提供書面資料就是這五年的執行狀況希望能夠來到辦公室做一個說明我也不想看紙本資料我們親自來溝通說明好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":9581.409,"end":9602.215,"text":"謝謝吳立豪委員剛剛質詢的太精彩了我不小心太早站起來不好意思謝謝主委請回座我們接著繼續進行質詢我們有請我們的立院新寫也非常歡迎劉書斌委員的加入我們有請劉書斌委員質詢謝謝主席有請吳主委"},{"start":9609.656,"end":9611.216,"text":"請吳主委備質詢 謝謝主委我們都是過去在學校裡面服務的人員這是第一次的質詢那就請大家互相保持一個良好的關係 謝謝今天大家可以看到在有關於"},{"start":9633.041,"end":9641.313,"text":"台積電的到對美投資有超過1000億的這樣新增的投資這部分還是在繼續燃燒這樣的新聞那本席這邊想要關注的就是說國科會作為主管"},{"start":9648.163,"end":9667.227,"text":"高科技發展跟研發的跟管理的這樣的一個機關的時候呢特別想要問到是關於說在國家的核心關鍵技術跟國家安全的問題上面尤其是我們看到的是這個裡面涉及到的是有一千三座晶圓廠是先進的還有封裝測試的這個設施還有研發的這個中心也在那邊設立的那下一頁"},{"start":9674.628,"end":9681.21,"text":"吳淑蔚妳在3月13號的時候也特別講到說台積電我們沒有辦法去管它在台積電的機密但是它赴美的管制是政府是有依法去管理的那就想詢問的是國科會它依照什麼樣的法令來去管理台積電赴美的投資"},{"start":9701.419,"end":9707.664,"text":"國會並沒有管投資就是投資的部分是廠商要提出申請跟經濟部提出申請那由投審會來審議"},{"start":9710.653,"end":9733.184,"text":"但是我們可以看到是說在國安法這邊我們可以看到下一部分您是說沒有錯它本身是一個投資行為但是所以在經濟部這邊但是在高科技的這樣子的出去的這個情況之下有根據國安法的第三條第三項大家可以看到這裡面第三條第三項是說有關的國家核心關鍵技術的這個部分"},{"start":9735.785,"end":9740.328,"text":"那這邊說如果涉及到外國不只是說包括大陸地區廣告地區等等的話呢它會有涉及到的是不只是說可能涉及到損害到國家的安全利益或是說產業的競爭力跟經濟發展的時候我們看到台積電在我們國家的GDP是非常大的這個情況之下絕對的而且形成到其他各國去的話競爭力的確會受到影響那這個部分"},{"start":9760.158,"end":9777.224,"text":"特別看到第三條的第四項的時候說關於這個科技認定技術等等的還有認定的程序跟相關的遵行辦法呢是由國家科學委員會裡面會同其他單位去做商定的嘛那在這個地方我們現在想要看的是下一頁的地方"},{"start":9780.066,"end":9788.853,"text":"這個網頁是從國科會的網站下來的下載的地方可以看到的是在第17、18項的時候可以看到的是關於18、19項的奈米技術這邊"},{"start":9797.375,"end":9798.756,"text":"那一部分應該是經濟部啦 可能是物質"},{"start":9818.015,"end":9837.5,"text":"好OK 那我們繼續往下看那這個部分下一頁我們就可以看到因為這個部分從網站裡面刷下來的地方在1、2年的時候呢可以呈現出來的是說是技術主管機關是經濟部就像您剛才所說的那我就想說的是說在政府裡面是認為說"},{"start":9839.266,"end":9851.045,"text":"在主管的奈米技術跟封裝技術這部分的時候經濟部是比國科會還更適合的擔任技術主管機關的嗎我想請教"},{"start":9853.752,"end":9864.576,"text":"經濟部是目標事業的主管機關國科會是負責科研科技研發但是我們的確在國安法裡面國科會負責關鍵科技基礎"},{"start":9870.58,"end":9895.546,"text":"那個叫什麼國家核心關鍵技術我們負責會診我們負責這個審議所以我們有一個審議委員會那審議委員會是各部會的代表以及我們還有民間產業界的這個專家來擔任這個審議委員各部會會提報我們每年會檢討一次各部會會提報提報他所主政的範圍之內有哪些敏感國家關鍵技術核心關鍵技術"},{"start":9898.007,"end":9921.133,"text":"提報上來我們會經由我們的審議委員會來審定審定完以後我們只是列技術項目審定完以後在施政的範圍各部位依照他自己的管制項目他會解釋在他施政範圍裡面的一些運作的細節所以包含在投資的項目裡面我們只列出這個項目名稱但是他的內容很多的這個條件"},{"start":9922.473,"end":9931.821,"text":"將來在經濟部他會去解釋這個管制的項目有哪些所以廠商如果在申請的時候他會依照經濟部的細節來申請所以有關半導體的項目的確是經濟部來主管"},{"start":9940.529,"end":9955.314,"text":"好 不過我可以理解是事業主管的這部分是經濟部可是因為他是寫的技術主管機關特別強調技術所以我想說我等一下到最後的時候就提到說這部分可能還是要依據名目上面可能是比較適合的大家往下寫"},{"start":9957.345,"end":9966.616,"text":"我們現在更重要的是在這裡就是說您剛才也把說要去投資半導體的投資這一部分的時候就會有經過相關的跨部會尤其在跟經濟部的這邊可能是投審會這邊的相關的部分那我們看到是剛才已經有提到是美國的投資是這部分那我們再繼續往下看"},{"start":9975.626,"end":9980.029,"text":"在這地方 台積電過去的投資項目有好幾種包括去美國 去日本 去德國因為剛才 依照剛才技術的關鍵核心技術清單當中是講14米以下的14米以下 大家可以看到是在美國的部分就有432米 還有更先進的部分要呈現出來日本是12 包括有部分在14之下"},{"start":10003.462,"end":10020.178,"text":"那德國是特別專用在車用的晶片當中,是12米,也有包括到12米的那我想請問一下,過去的這一部分,審理的期間大概是多少?那個程序你剛才也有說過了那這樣審理會因為各個國家有這個審理的標準會一樣的嗎?這三個國家都不在我們管制的範圍啊這三個國家的科技都比台灣還要進步耶"},{"start":10029.093,"end":10039.461,"text":"但是我們的高科技是台積電到那邊去,所以你的意思是說是設廠而已?那是投資的審議,跟核心觀念技術其實是無關的好,可是剛才我們在往下面看的時候,就覺得說你看說在半導體的技術上面,其實這些國家都比我們強大是嗎?是啊"},{"start":10050.168,"end":10056.133,"text":"在科技的部分美國絕對是比台灣強大但是在半導體的晶片這邊嗎在半導體全占製程的量產台積電現在是全世界第一"},{"start":10062.469,"end":10089.982,"text":"台積電現在是製程上面是台灣製程製造的技術製造的技術裡面有非常多是我們叫商業機密融合的部分台積電累積過去這個40年它30幾年將近40幾年了對不起還不到40年1987到現在累積的這些製造相關的一些商業機密"},{"start":10091.383,"end":10107.761,"text":"它是很難被了解的政府也不會完全了解所以這部分是要保護的喔台積電自己要保護的很好我們政府也要求他要保護的很好這部分是不能夠外移的啦也沒有辦法啦"},{"start":10109.851,"end":10127.978,"text":"可是我們再往下面看就是在這邊看到在上一頁的地方可是你剛才說的你說要求是把台積電自己要保護的很好因為這邊是屬於商業的部分那可是剛才有看到是美國的那邊也要設晶圓的也要研發中心對不對晶片的研發中心"},{"start":10128.878,"end":10146.525,"text":"那這邊的情況之下我們就剛才看到是如果台積電在3月4號跟美國總統在開會的就在記者會的時候都已經說到了他就是要去投資了那這種情況你就把它變成說你台積電我們國科會這邊的話在審理上面是可以當作說不嗎還是說你真的就是變成怎麼應對這個情況呢我可以跟委員解釋一下嗎"},{"start":10150.367,"end":10173.095,"text":"因為這個台積電也公開這樣的產出台積電所謂在美國投資的這個研發中心是基於它已經量產的技術到當地製造以後那個製造還要不斷的精進要不斷的精進所以它同一個製程的這個精進版也需要有研發中心來協助它的精進"},{"start":10174.295,"end":10191.819,"text":"所以在不同的這個場區,它經濟的模式都會不一樣,會依照當地的這個供應鏈、設備,還有它的市場產品,會做這個那個製成節點的經濟。所以它其實每一個場,每一個場區,投資的每一個場區,都會有這樣的這個研發中心,都會有。"},{"start":10194.807,"end":10222.579,"text":"好 所以是因為他這邊因為您是這邊的慢導體專家所以這邊已經提到說他是在針對當地的產品上面跟當地的銷販合作就這樣子提升這個技術的可能性好 那這邊因為時間的關係這邊我只要再繼續的再說下去的時候就是我把它放到最後面來看的時候因為這個地方我們可以看到說原來是商業機密的部分還是跟技術還是有跟各國在合作的部分這個情況"},{"start":10224.66,"end":10250.91,"text":"但是這邊我想要衝到最後一頁好嗎這個主席跟你講說這部分還有一些這個剛才說有群聚要過去啦是群聚我剛才也聽到一些部分但是我是想到說避免到這個半導體的避免說我們台灣有這個荷蘭病的這種出現因為資源的過度集中會把它扭曲包括其他的部分有排擠效應那我們現在先看到下一頁的情況之下看到的是說您在這個科技的"},{"start":10253.471,"end":10279.749,"text":"國科會的報告當中下一頁當中其實有談到在下一頁這裡在這邊看到的是說有這個太空科技進行的科技產業這部分不過這邊我們包括你說說所有的百工百業都能夠找到數位這部分的我看到是說太空科技這邊好像沒有把這個國防的部分再把他納到太空科技包括錢的這部分事實上可能可以再把這個講的把它含掛在裡面包括所謂這樣"},{"start":10282.451,"end":10300.988,"text":"這個無人機這部分那靜寧科技這邊事實上是2025年2050年之後就是一直要進行的部分那這邊它可以使用到所謂傳統的各種的產業這個部分我想說這邊可能應該在更多的一個科技技術的部分研發經費等等要加入就是提供這樣的建議那最後這部分呢這樣您覺得"},{"start":10303.01,"end":10329.505,"text":"好 就是這樣子 我覺得這邊我提供這個建議啦當然我是希望說 你也把它作為一個分工廠但是我還是希望說 因為剛才想到的是技術部分的主管機關 我覺得我可謂是當之無疑啦所以這個地方如果把它放在這個清單當中說是技術部分的主管機關的時候我真的覺得還是應該抓回到這個國家關鍵核心管制技術裡面的職責然後這產業的管理的問題 希望能夠繼續的就是再注意到好 就這樣子 謝謝"},{"start":10331.426,"end":10342.488,"text":"好 謝謝委員好 謝謝劉淑冰委員的質詢好 主委請回座好 部會官員回座 謝謝好 那我們接著我們接著繼續進行質詢請葉元之委員質詢麻煩請國會主委 謝謝"},{"start":10360.342,"end":10361.324,"text":"請國會主委備質詢謝謝葉委員好主委好"},{"start":10371.943,"end":10397.529,"text":"好 主委那個我也是持續想問一下台積電的問題因為主委之前有提到就是因為台積電的前瞻製程通通都在製造研發都在跟流台灣所以不用擔心會掏空台灣也不會變成美積電這樣講吧是多慮的當然我們希望是這樣希望是這樣但因為市場上包括很多專家學者都有提出相關疑慮譬如說"},{"start":10398.809,"end":10425.708,"text":"台積電的前研發處長他就提到他的分析他說美國台積電的先進製程落地在美國那他擔心說美國會逼台積電把技術移轉或者是把它分割成兩家公司那為什麼呢因為很可能就是到時候美國會把台積電的一些製程用在比如說國防工業上面所以美國可能會希望說直接可以"},{"start":10426.648,"end":10451.82,"text":"變成美國公司那我不知道主委你對於這個看法是怎樣我想台積電到美國投資主要是因應當地市場的需求這我知道主委我想有些東西我們都有共識他會怎麼去一定有他的考量因應客戶在那邊或者是他可能因應未來可能關稅會提高他做出最理性的選擇但我們現在其實擔心的不是"},{"start":10452.76,"end":10478.675,"text":"他美國怎麼樣我們現在思考的是那台積電他到了美國之後對於台灣產業跟國安的影響我是說從這個角度那因為主委之前的言論都比較樂觀然後就覺得說台積電到美國好像不會怎麼樣跟對台灣不會有太大的影響那我現在只是說這樣的評估是過於樂觀嗎還是說您是真的有經過相關的分析才得到這樣的結論"},{"start":10480.227,"end":10506.364,"text":"委員剛剛提到有一點我們倒是沒有明確的去談這個議題就是說台積電在美國設的廠會不會有些產品他在台灣是不會做的那可能會有因為包含美國自己國防機密的一些晶片他可能不希望是台積電在台灣的廠做要在美國的廠做類似這種東西是合理的是有可能的那這一點當然我們也不會在這種"},{"start":10508.345,"end":10531.624,"text":"可能發展的狀況之下台灣也不會去擔心這個事為什麼因為他不是我們的敵對國家那在台灣我們也可能會有自己我們國防需求的經驗也是在我們台灣的產作我們也不希望他在我現在只是說因為你看台積電前研發處長就說他其實擔心美國會把台積電要求技術轉移或分割兩個公司就變美積電這個是那個處長講的"},{"start":10534.907,"end":10563.324,"text":"技術轉移的部分,我剛剛其實跟其他委員有提到技術分兩部分,一部分就是公開的,像專利那些東西那大家都可以去學,可以去做但是那個是需要授權嘛,因為是商業的行為他如果願意授權給別人我們要講,主任,因為這個越講越細了其實我只是說,好像感覺上您非常樂觀但是在業界或市場上面,大家其實有很多不同的看法啦"},{"start":10563.544,"end":10582.629,"text":"我樂觀的原因是因為我們台灣不能夠自詡說台灣的這個科技研發是全世界領先的,絕對不是我們在半導體領域其實還有很多希望跟全世界各國先進國家來學習的合作那好,那這樣我再問再具體一點,那你覺得台積電到美國去投資對台灣的產業會有什麼影響嗎?"},{"start":10584.93,"end":10601.715,"text":"對台灣產業是好的啊是好的是好的就是說因為半導體的市場是在增加這增加當中所以光靠台灣作為製造基地是不夠的那主委請問一下因為那個亞利桑那州州長馬上就要來台灣了嘛這你知道嘛"},{"start":10603.115,"end":10618.394,"text":"那也有傳出說他是不是也會來拜訪一些台積電的供應商啊然後會希望他們到美國投資然後在亞利桑那州可能成立一個半導體的聚落啊那這個部分國科會有掌握嗎"},{"start":10619.955,"end":10641.064,"text":"這部分我們還沒有接到相關的訊息但是台灣的這個台積電它本身台灣這個供應鏈會不會到美國去當然也取決於說他們去到底是會賺錢還是會虧本那當地的政府能夠提供什麼樣的誘因那在包含關稅的這個影響還有那個當地的這個市場的這個拉力等等這個都影響到"},{"start":10647.287,"end":10672.432,"text":"所以我們其實大家會單線點在這邊嘛所以說剛剛台積電去之後供應鏈的整個移過去在那邊成立一個科技聚落之後那台灣這邊的投資會不會因為這樣子受到排擠嘛然後第二個就影響到就業的機會啊都不會 主委覺得都不會謝謝委員因為台積電在台灣還在擴敞當中那在台灣的而且他也幫台灣的這個供應鏈"},{"start":10674.632,"end":10701.747,"text":"國科也在協助我們的科學園區也在幫台積電在台灣供應鏈的整合我們也在協助所以它供應鏈的投資在台灣也會增加至於我們的廠商是不是有機會變成國際級的公司也可以利用台積電在國外的投資它也可以擴大在當地招募人才在當地建立它的製造基地也會變成國際的公司我們期待是這樣的發展"},{"start":10702.788,"end":10729.644,"text":"那這樣子的話我們也希望美國政府也要協助他不管是聯邦政府還是州政府當地的這個政府如果他們有足夠誘因廠商我們是政府不會去逼他嘛那一定是有誘因他才會去你的意思是說因為台積電在台灣還有持續在擴廠所以不會有產業外移的狀況那請問一下因為上一次魏哲嘉在總統府開記者會的時候他有提到希望政府幫他解決用地跟用電的問題"},{"start":10731.465,"end":10743.755,"text":"那之前更有提到就是說台積電未來希望在台灣一年設一個新的廠然後在各縣市那國會的掌握是怎麼樣現在用電跟用地都沒問題嗎針對協助台積電設廠的部分"},{"start":10746.604,"end":10774.53,"text":"我當然不能講沒問題因為還有很多困難要克服有哪些困難要克服當然土地的取得現在台灣土地很寶貴土地我們規劃要取得都要經過我們正常的程序要做環境影響評估你現在是要協助他在哪裡取得用地遇到困難那個我還不能透露不能透露不能透露因為這個規劃的過程當中那會不會有可能因為那個用地取得不了影響到他的社長"},{"start":10775.63,"end":10800.258,"text":"有可能所以之前承諾說以後會在台灣增加生產線一年設一場可能沒有辦法做到有可能他的前提就是說我們政府可以協助他解決所有的用地水電這些問題的確所以政府要很努力所以現在最主要是土地的問題那電的問題土地電水都需要解決都有問題還有我們生態的保育不能夠被破壞生態保育的問題"},{"start":10802.199,"end":10826.699,"text":"對這個生態保育就牽涉到環境影響評估這些事情那主委按照你這樣講嘛就是說因為現在我們也不確定說能不能解決土地水電的問題有可能他沒有辦法設廠那沒有辦法設廠那這個聚落外移到美國的可能性就很高因為你的前提你說不會掏空台灣的前提是建立在台積電未來可以很順利的設廠所以就有很多的不確定性"},{"start":10827.814,"end":10833.544,"text":"對啊那他到國外市場也有很多不確定但是因為像亞利桑那州他們那邊用電沒問題嘛"},{"start":10836.957,"end":10854.845,"text":"他那邊也需要當地政府要協助他所以他的問題可能比我們還大當地政府就有協助他而且還施加 還有壓力嘛所以他有去嘛那我們現在台灣是希望他留在這邊所以要幫他解決問題但是限於環境嘛土地啊 電啊 這些是 但是台灣的政府"},{"start":10858.386,"end":10870.978,"text":"過去的這個時機我們協助台積電台灣政府效率是遠比國外的政府效率還要高但是因為有時候就是土地台灣土地的問題嘛 電的問題我絕對是肯定國科會積極協助台積電我是說是物理環境的限制"},{"start":10876.883,"end":10892.753,"text":"好 那接下來我想跟那個主委請教一下因為這個是3月13號美國外交事務的一個期刊它是一個喬治城大學的教授跟一個美國戰略暨國際研究中心共同發表的裡面提到就是說"},{"start":10894.076,"end":10914.814,"text":"怎麼樣強化台灣跟美國 就是說他是說美國必須要協助台灣因應中國的灰色地帶戰術啦其中提到台灣應該要發展自己的低軌衛星通訊環境那當然他是寫給可能美國政府的建議啦就是說希望美國來協助那我其實我們台灣自己也有發展嘛就在國客會底下"},{"start":10915.495,"end":10943.289,"text":"就是太空中心可是這個太空中心這個國家發射場址現在進度就有落後我們先看舊的計畫因為新的計畫還沒揭露我們先看舊的計畫舊的計畫是113年是去年應該要完成應該要選定國家發射場址的位置但就我了解好像還沒選定現在兩個地方在挑我們這個月底會確定這個月底會確定現在是說屏東跟台東挑一個是不是是那有沒有確定要挑哪個 還沒"},{"start":10943.909,"end":10969.194,"text":"還沒有 這要經過審議會經過審議會那現在國會會有比較傾向哪裡嗎我們審議會會才能公佈我勉強主委揭露啦但是因為現在看起來就是會延後嘛那好像我今年一月的時候是不是有提一個修正案出去有訂定一個新的新的完成國家發射長子建制計畫是不是反而是訂119年啊"},{"start":10970.953,"end":10988.818,"text":"那新的計畫,新的大概是還是一樣我們時程一樣還是一樣119年完成目前時程一樣還是一樣那你1月份遞出的修正案的內容如果沒有改時程的話只有本來是去年年底可是因為經過當地的這個溝通"},{"start":10992.539,"end":11018.761,"text":"因為要跟兩個村 就是南田村跟屏東的九盆村要跟居民溝通等等 那個花了一些時間還有很多意見 他們提出來的意見收集完以後我們的委員還要到現場去訪視 所以拖了一點時間但是我們已經確定這個月底 省議會會開會會通過然後119年就會完成國家發射場建制"},{"start":11019.562,"end":11037.242,"text":"而且會執行兩次陸軌火箭發射活動確定?如果預算確定的話預算確定的話就會確定最後很簡單問一個問題因為川普他有砍了一些研究機構的預算所以這你知道嗎?你有在關注這件事嗎?我知道"},{"start":11041.639,"end":11060.091,"text":"那譬如說像他有篩檢的美國國家衛生院給一些美國大學研究經費那有一些學校已經開始凍結教職員的人士招聘了那剛好我覺得這個機會啦這個國科會因為也都有計畫嘛在招攬外國籍的科技人才我不知道國科會有沒有針對"},{"start":11062.24,"end":11084.095,"text":"針對就是美國的這些變化你沒有看準的這個機會要把一些美國優秀人才把他招募到台灣來委員 這個建議很好我會鼓勵我們所有的學研機構利用這個機會好好去邀請好的人才 國際人才到台灣來這是很好的建議OK 好 謝謝謝謝葉元之委員質詢主委請回座 謝謝"},{"start":11092.97,"end":11096.894,"text":"接著我們繼續進行質詢請郭玉琴委員質詢好 謝謝主席有請主委請主委備質詢 謝謝郭委員好"},{"start":11114.193,"end":11131.332,"text":"主委辛苦了因為很多人在問台積電我也不例外的也是要講一下這個台積電的部分我們聽到這個魏董事長他其實之前在總統府有開的記者會那之所以會到美國就是投資這樣子的一個金額主要就是因為以台積電來講產能不夠"},{"start":11134.495,"end":11152.842,"text":"所以他必須要拓展產能這個相對來講我用一個更白話的就是說我要因應我自己的客戶當我的客戶太多我需要做給他們的東西太多我沒有人做光是在台灣其實是不夠的所以我必須要到外地請別人來幫我做這個概念對嗎是的確是"},{"start":11154.022,"end":11172.237,"text":"好所以其實就是慘了但很多人又開始要擔心了因為剛剛我有聽到其他的委員在講說是不是連封裝測試也會去但是以客戶的角度這個是我從財經的報導上面看到的以封裝測試的一個客戶高規格的客戶的他的表示"},{"start":11173.318,"end":11196.912,"text":"目前半導體的這個高層他分析儘管超維他是在這個台積電他們先進封裝的首要客戶之一但是這個封裝的測試總共有三種不同的技術是其中之一但他預估啦其實這個技術並不會在美國擴產也就是說如果要在美國連封裝測試的部分一起算進去光是建廠至少要四年對嗎"},{"start":11198.783,"end":11221.415,"text":"是因為他那個先進封裝的廠他用的技術跟經營製造不太一樣他還要再找不同的這個供應鏈能夠支撐他這個廠的運作這個不是很容易的事情所以準備工作就要好幾年所以光是先進的封裝測試廠的高層他也表示以他對台積電的瞭解他們是非常非常嚴謹"},{"start":11222.475,"end":11237.895,"text":"而且態度是非常的保守跟謹慎設廠絕對有他的道理那不是只有在美國將來其實可能在日本在德國他都一樣也會設廠就是因為四個字他的產能不足"},{"start":11240.037,"end":11262.046,"text":"所以這個魏董事長也不斷的在強調在台灣他預計還要再開11條的生產線也就是說這11條的生產線目前跟國客會這邊也有合作剛剛葉元之委員他也特別提到了我們也正在幫他找適合的地點但是這個必須要很長期的計劃因為他包含了有所謂的內政部"},{"start":11262.786,"end":11282.805,"text":"經濟部甚至還要跟農業部還有環境部等等是不是也要跨部會才能夠找到適合的場子對不對是是好那台積電的問題我就問到這裡好那另外一個部分呢我想就是我們非常的鼓勵各個領域的研究人員以國科會的一個角度來說"},{"start":11284.773,"end":11311.922,"text":"那麼以基礎的科學研究來回應這個社會上的一個需求來創造所謂的這個科研的價值我想這是國科會非常重要的一個宗旨對不對是好那剛剛其實有很多的委員正在關心就是說我們的科研人才的資源或者是我們在學術研究要補助所謂的大專學生的研究的計劃等等這也都是在我們的國科會的這個主要的服務的項目應該講齁之一對不對"},{"start":11313.903,"end":11332.53,"text":"那同時呢我們也積極的在推動這個台灣的科技人才跟國際科技學術單位來做這樣交流的一個跨國的一個事務沒有錯對不對沒有錯好但是呢我們從翠上面我最近看到了一篇當然我不知道他是在美國密蘇里"},{"start":11333.27,"end":11358.456,"text":"州的一所大學他應該也是在攻讀博士吧他說他們系上好不容易錄取了一位這個來自台灣的博士生本來是希望他可以來到這個地方來深造但是呢前幾天他來信告知可能沒辦法成行因為他向國家申請的獎學金呢在今年因為預算刪減而暫停發放雖然他們為他保留了這樣的一個名額直到明年但是還是"},{"start":11359.736,"end":11381.216,"text":"沒有任何可能性或者是肯定的一個答案那他也特別說到這一位唯一來自台灣的博士生要入取有多麼的嚴格在眾多的競爭者當中光是他們系上收到了33份的申請只有這一位台灣的博士生他入取了"},{"start":11382.657,"end":11403.732,"text":"逐漸他凌駕他的才華以及他的整個所有的能力優秀是凌駕在其他國的博士生申請的一個名單上面但因為我們的預算被砍了因為我們的才化法的部分也嚴重的影響到了這樣子的一個狀況接下來我就想要問一下我們的主委了"},{"start":11404.772,"end":11431.634,"text":"在我們的這個財政收支劃分法修法之後我們的中央的部分有3753億那這個部分呢除了在114年度的中央總預算裡頭我們扣掉了所謂的法律義務的支出還有補助一些限制以外3.1兆的這樣子的一個預算之後呢也因為財劃法這樣子的劃分我們可能要面臨28"},{"start":11435.177,"end":11453.135,"text":"28%的嚴重影響那28%是好的我還說是好的為什麼因為如果國防預算其實是不容被刪減的可能會高達影響層面37%以上那在國科會四大領域可能就會被嚴重影響有四個部分"},{"start":11453.755,"end":11473.647,"text":"基礎的研究 精創跟人工智慧 太空科技 淨零的科技等等這些全部都會被影響 我不曉得目前為止我們國科會怎麼因應這個狀況目前我們接收到行政院主計總署來的這樣的訊息現在只是預先來決定怎麼處理的這個階段"},{"start":11482.591,"end":11509.617,"text":"那如果是28%我想如果要通商就影響到所有的計畫那這個影響的範圍實在是太大了但是如果說你要把某些計畫就刪掉就不做的話那同樣的也會影響到非常多的我們重大的那個科技政策項目就無法執行所以都是非常的困難所以我當時才會說這個會是一個災難性的這個結果"},{"start":11512.498,"end":11535.104,"text":"所以其實這個是我一直從早上聽到現在不管是各個部會也好那尤其在我們的國科會就是一方面又希望國科會能夠多多的培養多多的投資在我們的科研的人才上面那二方面其實因為我們的預算因為我們的所有的經費可能會嚴重受到災難性的影響"},{"start":11536.104,"end":11549.796,"text":"所以我真的不知道要馬而好又要馬而不吃草的概念是從何而來好那接下來我來問一下就是我們台灣的算力AI算力我想這個AI算力其實也是我們非常重要的就是一門課題那在我們"},{"start":11553.038,"end":11578.926,"text":"目前台灣的AI算力在排名全球的排名是第11那這個部分是怎麼樣應該要來因應跟縮小跟國際AI強權的一個算力的一個差距我們是不是有一個進程的計畫那因為我們知道其實包含中國不管是Deep-seek也好他們用低成本高效能的一個優勢那我們在這個部分是怎麼樣來強化我們自己本身的競爭力呢這個部分"},{"start":11580.034,"end":11595.086,"text":"國會現在我們也初步決定了就是除了我們自己在發展的這個台德之外我們現在正在鼓勵我們的學界中央研究院甚至我們的產業界也大力來投資因為現在我們可能無法像"},{"start":11595.666,"end":11610.506,"text":"像美國那樣子去做非常龐大的開創性的這種大型語言模型因為那個要投入的確是超過我們的能力所及但是呢 基於現有的這個開源的這個模型我們做一些前瞻的這個應用"},{"start":11612.268,"end":11633.837,"text":"特別是優化這些模型讓這個能源的使用效率提升讓它適合台灣的環境使用我們的資料建構主權AI這部分前瞻的研究我們會大力來支持我們的學界跟這個業界要做我們也支持如果有持續的一個比較更積極的一點進程再提供給我們辦公室"},{"start":11635.017,"end":11644.039,"text":"那再來我想要問一下就是包含我們的這個低軌衛星的部分那我想大家都應該還記得2023年就是台馬的這個電纜斷纜就是斷纜的這個事件其實造成了馬祖地區的民生跟經濟形同像是孤島一樣那等於對外的連結都沒有了"},{"start":11655.322,"end":11672.097,"text":"那當然在這個俄烏戰爭當中其實所謂的地軌衛星它佔有非常重要的一個國防的一個地位那2019年到2023年台海的這個海嵐受損的部分總共是36件那平均大概每一年大概都有故障大概將近7件"},{"start":11673.678,"end":11697.913,"text":"2023年甚至高達了12件創歷史的新高那近三年來其實我們周邊的一些斷纜的一個事件平均每年發生至少是七到八次但是在今年前兩個月其實我們就很擔心了因為連續發生了大概有四起那想問一下就是我們的主委目前我們的低軌衛星推動的進度應該是如何那就是"},{"start":11698.533,"end":11703.296,"text":"是不是在我們的這個福惠9號還有這個B5G的一個地軌衛星都已經預計在2027年發射這個是不是會如期進行"},{"start":11709.949,"end":11737.868,"text":"我們目前規劃如果預算沒有影響的話會如期就是2016年,2027年我們會發射第一顆通訊先啟就是我們家B5G的這個通訊衛星但是我們現在還是因為在我們還是依賴歐洲的這個OneWeb的低軌衛星那我們是要怎麼樣去強化我們自己本身的就是去降低這個依賴性這個目前有沒有一些進程的計畫"},{"start":11738.854,"end":11753.539,"text":"我們除了目前在使用的這個OneWeb的服務它的頻寬受到限制所以沒有辦法擴大我們現在正在跟其他的這個美國的公司也在洽談當中很有可能明年我們會由這個美國"},{"start":11757.02,"end":11781.207,"text":"Amazon Kuiper來提供額外的服務至於國安的需求我們的國安會也在尋找可能的美國公司在中高軌相關的衛星服務也在強化當中所以政府其實是對於我們的通訊韌性現在花了很大力氣能夠建立相關的能力確保我們的通訊韌性因為現在這個"},{"start":11783.848,"end":11804.285,"text":"海底光纜被刻意破壞這個情況越來越嚴重也造成人民非常大的反感在這種狀況之下我們必須要加速我們的衛星的能力好那我們希望就是在跟美國有進一步的確定的一個合作的時候其實也把這樣子的資訊提供給大家好 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝郭議員的資訊主委請回座 謝謝"},{"start":11811.459,"end":11814.822,"text":"好 接著繼續進行質詢我們請范雲委員質詢謝謝召委 有請主委請主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":11827.765,"end":11845.664,"text":"主委早 今天有兩題想跟您請教跟討論第一個是關於我的預算提案就是大型學術會議的無障礙配套第二個是關於AI在學術應用上的角色跟規範"},{"start":11848.627,"end":11855.335,"text":"第一個部分就是我已經跟你們問了就是我的預算提案那你們有正在準備那你們已經會修正那個國科會的補助國內舉辦國際學術研討會的作業要點的第八點未來的申請機構可以編列無障礙措施經費需求我覺得這個非常好那這點我表示肯定"},{"start":11869.711,"end":11877.334,"text":"但是我的預算案其實是要講到是說要落實因為我知道對機構來講這還是有點麻煩的事你有經費補助他能夠提出不代表他會做我覺得一開始這個階段這樣是蠻好的所以我想請國科會是不是可以參考衛福部2024年去年10月修正的身心障礙者融合式會議及活動參考指引訂一個時間表"},{"start":11897.981,"end":11922.131,"text":"譬如說你們認為多久內我們國內所有的大型學術會議都能夠有無障礙的設施好嗎好謝謝委員這個建議是很好所以我們現在正在努力因為學界是蠻自由的那我們希望首先先透過這個引導我們邊預算他們可以來申請引導他們做然後慢慢讓大家習慣以後"},{"start":11923.351,"end":11934.863,"text":"接下來下階段看看能不能變成這個規定這個可能是需要一年兩年或者是更久可以給我一個時間表然後不同階段做法那能不能夠那個兩個月內給我辦公室一個報告呢好謝謝主委的支持那我想這是對大家來講就是我們國際化的重要指標"},{"start":11944.693,"end":11964.458,"text":"那第二個就是AI,我知道主委也非常熟悉這個主題那也很關心,那國歌會我想你們應該對這個題目也非常的有興趣,正在發展因為我自己辦公室做了一些研究那2023年的Nature的一篇文章就有指出研究者其實早已開始用Chat GPT譬如說改英文、改句子"},{"start":11970.32,"end":11998.08,"text":"包含總結文獻去為文獻做總結然後那未來這篇文章講到其實它甚至可以幫你做研究設計以後甚至還可以幫忙就是審查論文所以它的角色其實是越來越重要那我想問主委你認為AI運用於學術研究哪些行為是可以接受的哪些是不行主委可不可以解答一下因為我後面還有很多要問您請教您的"},{"start":11999.301,"end":12025.788,"text":"有關像CHECKGP這種AI的工具應用在各種各樣的領域是一個趨勢我們當然也希望它能夠變成是一個好的工具但是要怎麼樣去防止它變成是一個規避所謂的創作人的創作然後還有智慧財產權的議題等等我們可能還需要一些配套措施還需要再研議"},{"start":12027.889,"end":12049.526,"text":"我們傳統的所謂的學術倫理定義的範圍現在都還依然存在將來我們可能的做法就是將來AI創作的部分要留下軌跡讓我們可以辨識這種規定將來可能會慢慢會實施就是留下軌跡可以辨識或者是所謂的自我揭露那這可能會是基本的"},{"start":12050.247,"end":12070.52,"text":"那我的辦公室的那個做了一些小的research我們發現那個Nature 2023年跟Science 2024年就指出因為AI的快速發展它的技術其實是可以被運用在偽造學術研究上那甚至有一些跡象就是指出它的可以處理假資料"},{"start":12071.621,"end":12100.26,"text":"沒有驗證的學術假設他可以幫你跑出怎麼樣資料是適合的那甚至已經有期刊他出現大量的評論文章因為在譬如說Medical research就是這邊那你這個commentary事實上是不用peer review的不用同儕的他比較容易刊登某些就是南亞的一些機構大學可能會鼓勵他們的員工做這樣的部分那所以這部分就已經有產生了"},{"start":12101.741,"end":12123.404,"text":"所以AI時代下學術評論投稿跟被撤回的論文爆真已經有一些研究覺得這個有相關比如說我這邊引用的Nature的一篇文章2023年的文章中法國的一位電腦科學家就說有個期刊出版社叫Hindawi他撤回了"},{"start":12124.045,"end":12146.511,"text":"一年內就撤回了八千錄因為它旗下有好幾個期刊那裡面呢包含文具會故意用一些字句避免被就是抄襲軟體發現而且有跡象顯示其中的一些論文沒有揭露使用AI那但是這些已經被撤回的論文其實已經有引用過超過三萬五千字就整體"},{"start":12147.691,"end":12172.959,"text":"那另外就是Science的2024年的文章也指出有一個期刊叫做Neurosurgical Review那它的編輯說他們暫時停止接受評論性的學術文章就Commentary因為他們發現這裡面大量增加的評論文章的是由Chat、GPD等AI工具撰寫的仔細去看的話可能就是品質低落或者是完全沒有相關性"},{"start":12174.299,"end":12186.093,"text":"所以我想這些就是重量級的期刊裡面提到的現象所以主委剛剛聽起來您是同意學術研究中的AI使用是要揭露嗎"},{"start":12187.04,"end":12210.219,"text":"是 我認為這樣 那這也是趨勢 但是這個AI創作創作不管是影像 影片 還有文字 藝術品等等這些東西要留下軌跡 有一個叫浮水印的技術 這個還在發展當中您認為學術的圖片可不可以用AI 就是只要自我揭露留下軌跡就可以使用AI的製作嗎"},{"start":12213.855,"end":12235.294,"text":"人的研究他的成果創造新的知識這是我們要省電學術文章的重點他要能夠讓人家相信這不是用工具自動做出來而是他自己的那這種機制是非常困難還在發展當中我們希望國科會將來也是慢慢要去注意這個事"},{"start":12236.415,"end":12244.142,"text":"我想您說慢慢我是覺得好像不能慢慢了要更快一點因為需要工具還在發展當中這個真的是需要專業來討論了解學術倫理的跟了解AIGPT的那我這邊"},{"start":12251.149,"end":12274.449,"text":"就是你們目前的學術倫理裡面還並沒有包含AI這個部分嘛我想主委很知道那根據我們陽明交大的那個周嵌副校長他的網路上的那個公開的研究目前國際上多家學術期刊跟出版社我就不念了他有一些基本的規定第一個深層是AI不能成為作者"},{"start":12274.949,"end":12299.208,"text":"第二個要進行揭露AI寫作應該要在因為我想AI寫作國內我們也知道有蠻多會幫忙尤其是英文的寫作在研究方法或聲明等處要進行揭露那當然作者還是應該對原創性正確性完整性負完全的責任當然這只是一個學者國內學者的研究那我們辦公室也去查了您剛講到的圖像"},{"start":12300.569,"end":12326.678,"text":"非常有趣我們指標性的Nature已經明確指出他們不允許全部或部分使用生成式AI創作的影像、影片或插圖在它的網站上都可以看到理由是因為研究成性出於同意保護智慧財產權、隱私等這些原因當然我們未必完全需要跟Nature一樣但是我想今天其實就是藉這個機會"},{"start":12328.325,"end":12354.48,"text":"跟主委討論我們是不是應該要參考國際標準那國科會找相關的學者專家開始來評估那關於國內的期刊的標準就是我們的就是研究計畫等等是不是應該要有跟AI的相關的規範哪些是可以的行為那需不需要揭露那哪些是不行的那主委覺得呢可以這樣做嗎"},{"start":12355.541,"end":12367.243,"text":"好 謝謝委員的建議我覺得這個方向我非常肯定那我們誠信辦公室接下來會努力把委員這個建議我們會把它納進來召集相關的學者"},{"start":12368.824,"end":12385.444,"text":"抱歉我們電電相關的規範感謝主委承諾那是不是也可以在您認為兩個月可以給我們一個初步的報告跟方向嗎可以謝謝主委對那個無障礙的支持還有對AI方向的進一步的釐清跟規範謝謝"},{"start":12389.877,"end":12402.785,"text":"謝謝范委員質詢主委請回座謝謝好那我們接著繼續進行質詢請陳培宇委員質詢時間因為是第一位外委會的這個時間五分鐘好被主席提醒是外委很難過好來五分鐘那個有請主委謝謝主委請被質詢謝謝"},{"start":12420.719,"end":12437.804,"text":"好主委我過去一整年不對是一年多都一直在跟國科會討論關於兒少自殺的死因回溯很開心國科會當時就承諾了會進行後續的研究確實我們辦公室也收到了好幾次的會議通知我們確實開會了很多的實質內容這個部分真的要感謝國科會"},{"start":12438.944,"end":12449.129,"text":"願意以國家的力量來研究來協助支持我們台灣的大人去理解兒少身心狀況的改變但是我想問一下目前的進度時間有限我們直接跳到這一張目前給我們的書面回覆說因為有人事調動新來的黃處長2月17才到任"},{"start":12456.693,"end":12475.441,"text":"我們知道在業務交接上應該還有一些理解的困難跟落差那可不可以請主委這邊快速讓我們知道一下這個案子會不會持續然後後續的進度規劃因為你們在研究計畫當中提到會有AI的部分那我想AI的部分到底適不適合你們的專家學者應該有一些討論但我想我還是要提醒"},{"start":12476.382,"end":12486.402,"text":"而上死因回溯這件事情他必須要處理的倫理議題也好專業議題也好或者是研究方法也好其實我相信有更多專家學者可以參與這邊是不是可以請國科會這邊簡單回應一下"},{"start":12487.867,"end":12515.017,"text":"好謝謝陳委員我們絕對支持我請新來的黃處長好那處長我時間有限可不可以請您簡單快速回覆我想我們之後會可以繼續開會討論是跟委員報告就這個計劃案就是我們目前從113年啟動之後事實上關於這個結合AI的這個實務研究還有特別針對這兒少在心理危機還有自殺風險的分析這目前都就正在"},{"start":12516.277,"end":12541.898,"text":"進行當中相信不久應該就會有一個比較清楚的輪廓好那我想不管是輪廓或是後續研究推進的進度或者是我們多久要產出一些報告不管是長期的短期的我們都非常期待看到透過研究來讓我們台灣的大人理解兒少身心健康的議題那可能也讓教育部或衛福部在做成相關政策的時候有非常重要的參考依據這部分謝謝國科會我們一起繼續努力"},{"start":12542.498,"end":12571.582,"text":"好 接下來我也一直在談科普這件事情我知道我們有新的相關的主任然後也有相關新的想像但是我還是要強調關於科普不會只有活動這件事情那我想我們就負責任的來提出一些建議來看下一張其實我們之前一直談過除了活動之外其實還有所謂的科學傳播跟知識轉譯那所謂科學傳播跟知識轉譯有哪些呢我們就舉一些例子來 這個是新的例子"},{"start":12572.182,"end":12583.909,"text":"就是從科技部轉到國科會被放生的SMC台灣科技媒體中心的計畫我想那個時候主委您還不在可能對於這個事情沒有記憶但我跟您簡單說一下2027到2021當時是在科技部的計畫支持下成立後來到了2022年科技部只有一個一年計畫"},{"start":12592.594,"end":12612.457,"text":"後來到2023年主改為國科會之後就停止支持這個項目的工作到目前為止台灣科技媒體中心居然是由新穎寺民主基金會在支持台灣的這個台灣科技媒體中心做的相關的研究跟報導不知道這個部分主委您怎麼看"},{"start":12614.812,"end":12636.59,"text":"這個項目其實我並不清楚對對對我剛一開始就有說那我這邊提出來還是我先幫我回到上一張頭影片我這邊之所以提出來就是我屢次都強調活動當然很棒而且越來越好之前有非常多委員提醒的不要過度的宣傳的費用造成了好像只有宣傳的沒有實質活動所以我們非常謝謝李老師在您到任之後您確實實質"},{"start":12637.571,"end":12657.118,"text":"改善了很多事情那我们现在就是进一步想要拜托国科会传播的部分知识转移的部分我相信我们可以一起来努力往下一张所以我才会提出台湾SMC这件事情那我相信主委您是不清楚的没关系我们之后再进一步讨论好谢谢委员这个部分我们会追踪那下一个其实科普政策"},{"start":12658.238,"end":12664.286,"text":"還有另外一個事情就是獎項規劃的部分目前國客會我跟你們說過的獎項的部分我覺得好像現在還是處於一個搭便車的狀態沒有實質的推進這個部分主委可不可以回應一下"},{"start":12677.526,"end":12687.776,"text":"抱歉委員我沒有聽懂這個好就是在你們自己的諮詢委員會當中我們談到所謂科普工作者設定一個獎項來鼓勵很多科普對然後你們的諮詢委員會真的很棒開啟了討論那在會議當中委員們也都很支持委員說"},{"start":12695.703,"end":12721.214,"text":"一可以考慮跟其他縣有獎項合作例如說個人獎的部分可以結合國科會的傑出研究獎或者是在跟文化部討論有沒有相關的合作或者是跟走鐘獎甚至有這個走鐘獎的合作的可能性那一個是國科會為主體去支持所謂這些科普工作者或者是跟別的單位合作我都認為應該更有國科會的主體性好 他們已經有言議我請他報告一下清楚好 謝謝"},{"start":12723.611,"end":12729.052,"text":"跟委員報告就是如螢幕上所示就是我們是有這三種規劃就是"},{"start":12730.747,"end":12753.373,"text":"如果可以以國科會的傑出獎來搭配的話其實是更有學術的價值好那如果是這樣我們期待後續的規劃好不好那最後一張最後一張好就是我的建議在這邊因為他們還沒有跟我報告我知道我知道那我們期待後續更有國科會的主體性讓這些傑出的科普工作者受到鼓勵然後更多國人看見好科普的事情我們可以一起更努力謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":12756.033,"end":12760.296,"text":"好 謝謝陳培宇委員 歡迎多回來我們教文委員質詢謝謝主委 請回座 謝謝接著我們繼續進行質詢 請萬美玲委員質詢好 謝謝教委 我們有請主委請主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":12778.595,"end":12792.437,"text":"王委員好好 主委好主委還記不記得去年本席有根據人工智慧科技基金會一份2023台灣產業AI化大調查的數據有跟您討論過關於企業還有政府AI化的程度你還記得嗎講完就忘了好 來 我提醒您一下在當時其實您也有認為台灣距離賴總統口中所說的AI指導還有相當的距離在那像過了一年你認為這個距離有縮短嗎"},{"start":12808.316,"end":12810.722,"text":"還沒有一年但你還沒有想起來"},{"start":12813.507,"end":12835.744,"text":"好來我就問您啦現在我們看起來過去的你忘記了我希望你能夠去回想一下其實每一次我們的諮詢其實可能主要都要把它記在心裡面因為每一次都是很重要不能諮詢完以後就把它丟掉了好嗎要複習一下那今天在這裡不苛責您但是我們看到根據人工智慧科技基金會最新的今年度的我們來看看2024台灣企業AI準備度準備這個調查這個報告裡面我國企業在數據力創造力技術力"},{"start":12843.49,"end":12844.69,"text":"那剛才看到這些數據我們來看更細緻的"},{"start":12863.038,"end":12879.038,"text":"那在台灣的企業當中我們看到7.9%的企業具備資料蒐集的能力但是不知道要如何應用38.6%的企業各部門自行的去蒐集資料來使用可是缺乏了統一的策略管理"},{"start":12879.759,"end":12896.862,"text":"那么35.6%AI仍然处于初步的探索阶段甚至有将近9%完全没有使用AI接下来我们看到42.6%的企业只有很少数的员工具备AI的知识但是26.7%的员工是完全不懂AI的"},{"start":12897.542,"end":12904.764,"text":"這個數據很可怕大概七成多那32.7%的企業是完全沒有設置AI專責的部門的那最後再看到高達一半以上52.5%的企業沒有機制可以確保AI模型符合國際規範這些數據我希望會後你要看不要又忘記了"},{"start":12918.807,"end":12938.85,"text":"這個都顯示我們AI策略與風險管理上有很多的嚴重的不足那麼面對AI技術的一個快速發展那政府有沒有或者您這裡有沒有措施可以協助企業來提升風險管理跟相關的治理能力有沒有報告委員我先講剛剛委員提到我先問一下這些數據你都知道嗎"},{"start":12940.647,"end":12955.341,"text":"不是很清楚要了解特別這些數字但是整體的狀況就像委員講的台灣在AI的運用上面其實還有待我想這幾個數字我希望會後主委能夠去了解"},{"start":12955.962,"end":12971.176,"text":"那了解完以後你最好能夠簡單的一個報告來告訴我們這些數據你大概覺得這有什麼樣的警示或提醒那準備怎麼做我覺得這個很重要因為我沒有要求你要給我們這樣的一個報告恐怕你下次又忘記了我覺得這個提醒很重要那再來我們看"},{"start":12971.897,"end":12989.044,"text":"这些数据其实凸显的是我国企业的AI应用普及率还是低的我相信这一点我们都同意但是这也来自于我想政府相关的AI法规到目前为止是没有完备的所以这也会影响到我们整个台湾AI的研发跟企业对于AI的应用进程这您同意吗同意"},{"start":12989.884,"end":13014.423,"text":"好您同意那所以沒有完備的AI相關法規跟配套會影響AI的發展我們都同意那主委其實您在上任之後也承諾會盡速提出來相關的這個AI草案去年的7月我們草案正式的預告10月22號草案也送到行政院在這過程當中我看到您跟同仁也都非常的努力不過五個月過去了為什麼還沒有看到送到本院來"},{"start":13017.022,"end":13031.298,"text":"在行政院已經在上上禮拜審完了啦行政院那最後的文字修正應該很快行政院會會報告主委我想喔"},{"start":13031.738,"end":13049.603,"text":"你這樣置之無物的你很難詳細交代我幫你講好了啦據本席了解行政院在2月26號院長會議當中以及2月27號主委的會議來決議說要把這個AI基本法的主政機關由國科會改為速發部請問這個決策你接受你支持嗎我們在行政院一起討論我當然是支持啦你支持為什麼"},{"start":13056.17,"end":13082.495,"text":"在行政院的會議啊我懂了 因為在行政院做成這樣的決議那你也沒有不支持的空間啦好 我要講的是主委 這整部AIF的基本法的架構條文我剛剛說過了 您跟同仁都很努力嘛是由國科會主導制定的法規的公告 蒐集各方的意見也是國科會在做現在突然間換手速發布這要什麼銜接啊那國科會你要扮演什麼角色 主委提一下"},{"start":13084.295,"end":13107.151,"text":"國科會協助制定這部AI基本法後續我們還是會持續來協助事發部你會協助什麼?你現在孕育要生出來小孩要拱手送人家然後看他長大的過程當中就遠遠的望著是這樣嗎?我們還是會投入AI的研發然後來支持未來事發部主政的時候他的需求"},{"start":13108.434,"end":13136.861,"text":"主委 我想其實你聽起來就是有很多的無奈啦因為你這個人也藏不太住表情啦有非常多無奈 對嗎是嗎不會啦 不會 沒有我看得出來啦 但也很難說啦因為這是大家努力的成果嘛所以我想啊 這個目前國科會你公布這個AI基本法的草案條文方向是鼓勵AI創新研究的一個方向可是呢 我們知道現在所謂的要改成這個速發部"},{"start":13137.341,"end":13153.977,"text":"是在說不管是這個風險啦資安啦等等所以去改的我聽起來我們是要考慮沒有錯但是完全把這個國科會的角色通通弱化掉我覺得也不太對因為我們知道這個草案的方向鼓勵採取創新研究可是如果我們把它"},{"start":13154.717,"end":13168.814,"text":"它變成了是這個國家安全或者涉及高風險為一個這個理由改成這個速發部那將來可能就會變成走這個管制AI的角度來研修這是完全不同的方向這當然我們可以討論可是過去我們其實在做的過程當中就不是這樣嘛所以我想我們現在AI其實發展是非常的快速"},{"start":13174.36,"end":13196.852,"text":"可能很短的时间之内就会出现很多重大的变化或者一些突破那如果说我们没有去加速赶快去把这个迎头赶上而且我们又没有法律的规范那我们的草案到现在呢还是这个delays我觉得我们要什么什么超美赶中啦等等啦我觉得这个看起来有一点点好像遥不可及所以我希望啊国科会啊"},{"start":13197.532,"end":13212.708,"text":"這個尤其是主委啊您帶領大家努力了這麼久是不是可以再努力一下應該跟行政院反映一下趕快院辦第一個送來本院來審查然後希望還是國會來做還是說現在主委覺得杯酒釋兵權了你完全沒有智慧的空間你不要哽咽了嘛"},{"start":13220.852,"end":13241.613,"text":"我們會確定這個AI基本法還是會保留創新研究的空間不會受到限制那行政這個會期絕對會受到限制我知道啦就是自己孕育的小孩我們還是希望他健康快樂長大但是我可能沒辦法撫養他就這個意思嘛但是主委我這樣講啦我對您跟團隊深具信心啦我們希望"},{"start":13242.093,"end":13256.676,"text":"不管是本席還是我們昭偉所提的AI基本法草案希望能夠還是以國科會為主管機關我們延續的下去來做其實政策會比較好的所以我還是希望你勇敢把它說出來接下來我想還有一題要跟主委在討論"},{"start":13257.677,"end":13267.963,"text":"主委你日前出席大專院校校長會議的時候有指出說近年來國科會穩定的挹注了科研投資全國科研經費已經達到1595億2020年起更獨立編練基礎這個科研的預算五年來從220"},{"start":13277.408,"end":13304.274,"text":"282億元增加到408億增幅達到45%所以你認為讓大學沒有後顧之憂但更舉出來日本出現了很多諾貝爾獎的得主所以你認為台灣的教育有問題到現在沒有培養出諾貝爾獎的得主真是丟臉我想這個話其實說得蠻重的所以我想請問一下主委我回去以後其實雖然是研究了很久我今天我想直接問主委"},{"start":13304.614,"end":13329.027,"text":"到底這個丟臉是政府丟臉還是國科會丟臉還是我們高等教育丟臉還是大學丟臉應該是我們整體的高等教育體系負責前瞻的學術研究讓學術研究的成果可以造福人類社會這整個體系所以是高等教育體系"},{"start":13330.029,"end":13334.616,"text":"丟臉就是整個高等教育體系丟臉你要試下這個註解你確定嗎應該講有有權責來改變這個體系的人主委會不會覺得這個話說得過重"},{"start":13347.915,"end":13363.495,"text":"我不是認為過重我是要提醒大家所以你還是覺得高等教育很丟臉如果按照你這樣講的話高等教育很寬喔除了大學以外教育部以外我們的學者都是高等教育的一環喔我當天演講我講了兩部分一部分就是我們在學術研究"},{"start":13364.798,"end":13379.836,"text":"負責學術研究就是所謂的研究型大學一定要積極的去思考這個事情另外一部分是我們廣泛的教學型大學包含技術體系教學型大學我有提到主委我理解我會怎麼協助他就是委員的建議"},{"start":13382.078,"end":13400.396,"text":"主委我有了解您那天所說的啦我相信你這個是有點恨鐵不成鋼的心情在裡面但您過去其實自己也是清華大學的副校長也是成功大學副校長也擔任過南台科大的校長其實你也在高校裡面啊所以這個丟臉是不是您也變成負責任嘛我也丟臉啦"},{"start":13403.899,"end":13423.008,"text":"對 所以你可能從這個自己也是從教育體系出來的好 我們除了點出問題覺得這麼丟臉之外請問一下你有沒有跟我們的教育部的部長討論一下到底為什麼這麼丟臉你有提出過問題然後也提出一些解決方式給他談過了嗎當天鄭部長也在場我們共同都會努力那所以你的說法他都贊成我不知道他內心怎麼想但是他"},{"start":13431.148,"end":13451.625,"text":"你覺得你在現場這一番話他內心要怎麼想沒有啦我想這樣子啦我想這樣子啦那個隨時再給我一點時間喔這番話出來之後台大校長陳文章其實有提出他的看法對於民進黨的批評指教他說產生諾貝爾獎得主的因素非常複雜除了一要長期耕耘二"},{"start":13452.065,"end":13457.151,"text":"我們也要跟這個國際學術組織這個要能夠跟上他們的腳步要能夠常常有一個互動第三個國家支持也很重要所以他說我們其實應該要來支持彭土學者能夠在國際型的研討會上得獎啦或者增加這個歐美的一些相關院士的人數啦提升一些這個台灣國際的影響力啦所以我想你看看喔"},{"start":13474.429,"end":13481.792,"text":"站在這個第一線這個校長的立場其實我不能說把球又丟回去給你因為這不是要丟來丟去問你是怎麼共同的解決所以我看起來你看你說你給了很多科研經費不是給了錢就好了如果給了錢我們就可以得到諾貝爾獎得主哪有那麼容易做的事情對不對所以我們給了這個預算補助經費我們有沒有去看看怎麼樣去設定他的KPI那怎麼樣去看他的績效那怎麼樣去輔導沒有做好的地方"},{"start":13502.139,"end":13511.929,"text":"我覺得這也是國科會要負的一點責任那最後我想再來提一下也就是說國科會把預算提高經費撒下去以後的努力我們來看國科會最新的統計2022年各國執行國家研發的經費的佔比我們來看台灣只佔了6.5%那您剛剛說的這個有很多諾貝爾獎得主的日本11.5%"},{"start":13525.242,"end":13529.905,"text":"美國9.9%南韓9.1%中國大陸7.8%瑞士28.2%荷蘭27.3%所以主委知道嗎荷蘭跟瑞士瑞士有25位的諾貝爾獎得主荷蘭有22位所以我今天要提說我們覺得我們好像就是給了很多的教育經費但是我們很多的科研經費也下去了但是主委我想希望您會後不要說那一天發表完以後就像那天我們質詢完以後忘記了"},{"start":13554.282,"end":13563.666,"text":"這就這麼重要點出問題然後提出建議然後跟這個部長溝通那想出辦法來到底怎麼去解決好不好你下次會不會再忘記應該不會不能應該不會喔一定要絕對不會好嗎絕對不會謝謝謝謝萬美林委員質詢主委請回座 謝謝"},{"start":13581.544,"end":13593.876,"text":"接下来我们继续进行质询请何新淳委员质询何新淳委员何新淳委员不在那我们接着继续质询请汪晓琳委员质询谢谢召委有请主委请主委备质询谢谢"},{"start":13607.663,"end":13613.984,"text":"黃委員好是主委好我想今天大概已經先前都有些委員有問您有關於台積電赴美社廠的問題那麼3月3號美國總統宣布台積電會在美國加碼投資1000億那麼這個新聞當然也引起了國內多人的許多民眾的關注尤其台積電是我們的護國神山又享有最關鍵最核心的一些晶圓的技術"},{"start":13636.149,"end":13648.68,"text":"所以呢對於就是這一次台積電到美國去設廠不知道主委知不知道說他們預計會在那裡興建多少奈米的晶圓廠或是說他們可能會在那裡設置什麼樣的廠"},{"start":13649.69,"end":13673.538,"text":"目前台積電在亞利桑那州設的第一個廠已經在運作了那它是4奈米的製程那接下來還有兩個廠陸續會蓋好開始運作可能就是會進到3奈米甚至到2奈米但是這個時程其實還要幾年以後也就是說"},{"start":13674.898,"end":13690.907,"text":"台積電的這個最先進的製程一定是在台灣研發到量產量產以後他才會把成熟的這個量產的技術會擴散到我們所投資的這個海外的這個基地好那所以呢按照主委的意思就是說其實現在台積電到美國這個副廠然後"},{"start":13695.749,"end":13708.423,"text":"接下來計劃可能會設置2奈米或是4奈米的晶圓廠基本上不是屬於我們國家國安法裡面所要管制的關鍵技術是嗎"},{"start":13709.922,"end":13731.73,"text":"美國本來就科技比我們進步我們不可能管制我們的科技到美國科技項目我們有所謂的管制國家請問一下我們在國安法的第三條裡面有講到什麼叫國家核心的關鍵技術請問主委那您認為台積電的技術不算是核心的關鍵"},{"start":13733.03,"end":13758.215,"text":"核心關鍵技術是嗎?核心關鍵技術大概很難用製程的節點來概括譬如說兩奈米的技術,現在包含三星電子也說它有兩奈米技術包含美國的Intel也說它有,甚至它是1.8,還講18A這個技術能不能進到量產"},{"start":13759.555,"end":13766.54,"text":"那有很多的製造的know-how存在這種製造的know-how台積電是不會洩漏給別人的所以簡單來說您認為說只有在研發階段在量產之前的這個才是屬於我們國家要管制的核心技術然後量產之後就不算"},{"start":13780.57,"end":13797.052,"text":"包括让你去设厂,接下来可能会有很多的相关的设备厂商一起去那这些因为他们都属于量产了,而且可能都标准化设备化了所以这些不是属于我们国家的关键技术大家都可以到那去设厂"},{"start":13798.217,"end":13817.039,"text":"報告委員我再解釋一下我說譬如說2奈米的技術我們到美國去投資也是要經過我們經濟部投審會它是在我們自己量產技術成熟的已經在台灣製造以後我們才會討論這個事至於說它能不能到其他國家這個又是另外一回事因為我們有所謂的這個"},{"start":13819.329,"end":13839.402,"text":"所謂在這個國際上被制裁的一些國家是管制的是更嚴格還有更傳統製程的這個技術也都純熟的技術也都不能過去的所以這個是兩回事那這一部分是經濟部在負責好您剛講的經濟部投手會所以現在經濟部投手會已經有接受到台積電有來申請投資的相關的計劃嗎"},{"start":13841.035,"end":13844.482,"text":"他們應該在準備當中可能還沒有見到如果說經濟部投審會在審查相關案子的時候會諮詢國科會的意見嗎"},{"start":13852.691,"end":13865.606,"text":"國科會應該會有代表會有代表我們知道其實國科會本身依照國安法授權法的規定要設置國家核心關鍵技術審議會這個審議會其實在去年年底的時候"},{"start":13871.877,"end":13897.612,"text":"有重新修正過最新的國家核心關鍵技術清單那現在我只是在PPT上面爐裂的這些技術項目當中有沒有涵蓋到這次台積電可能會到美國去設廠可能會帶去的技術美國並不是我們這些技術管制的國家是嗎 來我們回到前面第三條來請念一下"},{"start":13902.734,"end":13912.827,"text":"國家核心關係技術是指如流入外國大陸地區香港澳門或境外敵對勢力將重大損害國家安全產業競爭力請問美國是不是外國"},{"start":13915.06,"end":13919.221,"text":"我們剛講的那個是投資設廠我剛講關鍵技術我們是不會外流的關鍵技術的部分我們所管制的一些關鍵技術你怎麼這麼確認就不會外流廠都到了美國了"},{"start":13937.16,"end":13943.128,"text":"如果他有外流就違法嘛 違法就需要處罰所以現在台積電可能會帶過去的技術不在你們所管制的技術項目裡面"},{"start":13953.542,"end":13975.456,"text":"是嗎?不法外流要被加重刑罰處罰不法外流的話,如果是那個技術當然不法外流才會處罰我,現在是問您很簡單的問題就是台積電現在要過去的這個設廠會帶過去的這些技術算不算是列在你們這個核心關鍵技術項目清單裡嗎?"},{"start":13979.09,"end":13985.964,"text":"當然我這方面是外行啦像什麼晶片安全技術啊量子位元製程技術啊這不是都是你們自己國科會自己寫的嗎"},{"start":13989.5,"end":13997.082,"text":"我們這個就是要在投審會裡面審查那看看有沒有這是兩回事我要釐清在法規上面來講這個國家核心關鍵技術項目清單這是基於國安法裡面然後授權國科會要設置技術審議委員會要掳列這些清單所以如果違反這個清單的話它是會觸犯國安法的而且罰則很重"},{"start":14015.822,"end":14044.283,"text":"是但是國科會只是負責我們各部會提報的這些項目我們在這個審議會裡面審查所以你們確認了嗎你們已經公告了這份清單我們確認這些清單但是這些清單在執行的時候還是要回到主管的部會來認定但是從國科會的角度你們認為要在那裡要設置2奈米3奈米或4奈米的這個廠這些技術難道不算是台灣的我跟委員報告"},{"start":14046.163,"end":14067.569,"text":"半導體的技術美國比台灣還要先進那既然如此他幹嘛硬是要逼著台積電去設廠那我剛剛提的就是說先進製程製造台灣比他們強所以knowhow很重要就像我們在講其實在一般的學校裡面做研究教授果然理論很強"},{"start":14068.789,"end":14080.863,"text":"但是Technician很重要啊沒有錯啊所以Technician他的know-how很重要啊這個應該也是屬於我們的關鍵技術是不是但是這一部分連政府都不清楚的我跟委員報告"},{"start":14081.388,"end":14099.034,"text":"是你說我們政府不清楚還是政府無權去介入他們的機密啊我們無權啊除非他有違法你才有執法的能力去進去啊他沒有違法你沒有辦法其實主委我很贊同您的看法但是我們現在國安法就定得這麼的清楚"},{"start":14100.245,"end":14124.814,"text":"對不對他因為可能會違反一些關鍵技術所以呢這個之後我是覺得您現在說法有點像是限台積電於不義或是限經濟部其他的主管機關那未來到底要不要去了解他的關鍵技術還是說你們只是列了一個大框架然後之後呢想要處罰任何一個廠商就依照說我就是屬於違反這個項目的清單裡面我就可以罰那我不想罰的時候就不罰譬如說台積電"},{"start":14127.515,"end":14129.817,"text":"他即便是帶走了這麼重要的觀念技術我們都還是可以認為我們還有營業秘密法就是我們對保護廠商啊"},{"start":14134.993,"end":14162.935,"text":"國安法跟營業秘密法哪個是特別法這個我不清楚所以這個部分因為我今天時間是有限我希望就是主委回去可以跟你的團隊好好的去study一下國科會在這件事情上面的角色還有跟其他法規的一些相關競合的問題我們謝謝汪小林委員的質詢我想今天的這個內容我想是不是因為汪小林委員還沒問完那時間到了請主委是不是書面答覆"},{"start":14164.156,"end":14181.68,"text":"那我也提醒一下主委剛剛有一些細節是很明確的也要希望您可以尊重立院來明確的回覆剛剛關鍵技術有提到14奈米現在出去的是3奈米2奈米您其實是可以回覆的再麻煩您可以再根據您的專業跟經驗再與相關的回覆那我們接著進行質詢有請鍾嘉賓委員質詢"},{"start":14200.117,"end":14214.075,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 列車中央總統官員 會場工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請我們吳主任委員跟太空中心吳主任好 請主委及吳主任備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":14217.489,"end":14246.204,"text":"總委員好主委好吳主任好今天又來關心火箭的問題各國在增建運載火箭那麼發射機率非常搶手太空港的選址呢應該將聯外的海陸運輸思考在內好 請教一下那個請吳主任來協助一下吳主委請問亞馬遜他在大概七年前就已經有一個鼓勃計畫打算要在太空中佈置多少的地軌道太空衛星三千多顆是嗎 是有這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":14247.909,"end":14260.9,"text":"阿瑪隆是3000多顆對3000多顆嘛那目前他也發布了因為他本來要發展自己的燃油火箭來運載但是遇到一些狀況他改為委託人家發射委託83次的次數大概耗資要多少錢"},{"start":14262.628,"end":14283.597,"text":"總共接近100次,不止83次接近100次,那大概發射市場有多大的商機?我沒有去特別注意大概看到的是100億美金吳主委知道了,現在火箭發射非常的搶手請吳主委告訴我們目前各國的發射廠大概的運用狀況"},{"start":14288.918,"end":14307.768,"text":"說台灣的還是外國的 國際上的 到底哪些發射廠的大家都到哪裡去發射低軌道的通訊衛星我想這個美國的用的非常非常多用的多用特別來舉例大概他去年就發射100算我們整個商用衛星發射市場的比例大概有沒有超過一半一半以上那第二名在哪裡"},{"start":14309.508,"end":14325.925,"text":"第二名好像是中國,中國的不是商業,商業的還有歐盟的在法國,雅利安在甘肅那裡,日本也有,那麼印度也有很多,印度的發射中心會在哪裡?"},{"start":14327.106,"end":14346.093,"text":"他在南方有不少 德里以南 對對是的 好 那麼現在呢 主委我們現在關切的是我們自從太空發展法通過之後目前成立了太空中心也積極的評估在台灣建制火箭發射廠的廠址那目前進度怎麼樣目前我們已經進到最後選址的這個 好 是不是這兩個地方"},{"start":14353.083,"end":14377.541,"text":"台東跟屏東對 台東的南田村是屏東的九旁村好 那請問選址的時候有沒有對未來火箭發射廠址它的發射量營運量做個定位譬如說你一年發射12次跟一年發射兩次這個時候你的對外連外的運輸的需求就不太一樣是不是這樣是那目前有對這個發射廠址未來5年到10年內的營運的狀況有個定位嗎"},{"start":14382.255,"end":14404.209,"text":"我們當然希望說這個廠子建好以後不是只有我們自己的需求因為我們需求量可能沒有那麼大是希望能夠也協助其他的國家能夠變成是一個產業主委說得很好其實台灣在思考的是我們不見得能夠造波音客機 造Airbus但是我們能夠造機場"},{"start":14405.51,"end":14424.055,"text":"所以任何的民航機沒有機場它就不能用但很特別的這個世界上機場很多能造民航機的不多可是火箭發射剛好相反能造火箭的不少但是適合發射火箭的像南北迴圈之間像台灣這種得天獨合的地理位置的不多"},{"start":14424.915,"end":14453.634,"text":"所以其實這些當火箭發射的需量很大的時候不只是火箭建造業蓬勃發展到處這些火箭要尋找什麼尋找可以運載火箭把衛星送到軌道的這些地方那台灣是不是一個非常南台灣是不是一個非常好的場子就它發射的角度越靠近赤道可以佈設的角度越多吳主任是不是這樣子是同意是這樣沒錯嘛所以呢台灣有沒有把自己定位在未來我們可以協助讓這些商用火箭來台灣發射"},{"start":14455.195,"end":14479.013,"text":"我們期待是往這個方向走好 那當這些商用火箭要來台灣發射的時候它一定是從國外運進來有些在國內裝配有些在國內做檢查那麼國外進來的港口可能是從高雄港但是它從高雄港入運要到這兩個基地中的其中一個可能遇到入運上的需求也有考慮過有沒有從海運上走那吳主任請幫忙協助主委"},{"start":14483.3,"end":14506.291,"text":"基本上在我們這個評估的過程這個都是有考慮在內的對 考慮未來來台灣發射的火箭有可能進入這個南台灣的火箭發射基地是透過海運的港口直接到他附近所以未來的宣紙也有可能靠近海邊嘛應該是靠近海邊嘛好 最後的結論我不要再用太多時間所以主委這邊要請你敦促我們這個"},{"start":14508.112,"end":14517.379,"text":"太空中心這邊要給它一個目標台灣的火箭發射場子不是只是用來發射科研火箭我們要對這個火箭的未來十年"},{"start":14518.937,"end":14536.343,"text":"內有沒有可能成為一個國際的熱門的供應給商用火箭發射的場子可以去做這個評估嗎是我們的確是往這個方向走好那如果有這樣的評估未來的發射量會牽涉到你整個地面地面上聯外交通設施的運載需求這個"},{"start":14538.064,"end":14548.633,"text":"也要趕快的去做規劃跟相關的主管部會去做配合協調包括了交通部等等可以嗎可以好那就謝謝主委也謝謝吳主任謝謝謝謝委員謝謝鍾嘉斌委員質詢主委跟官員請回座接著我們繼續進行質詢請賴世保委員質詢"},{"start":14567.295,"end":14586.361,"text":"謝謝主席 一起各位先進有請國科會的吳主委請主委備質詢 謝謝賴委員好主委你好我有提AI的基本法對於你早上的回應老實講我是不滿意的"},{"start":14587.779,"end":14594.525,"text":"我覺得你國科會的主委 這些事情都在做結果主導權拿去司法部 你都點點就點點我們的主席這麼挺你 你把他搶來搶去都被搶走了這部會所長彼此之間競爭的愛這麼重要 總統這麼重視"},{"start":14613.721,"end":14623.947,"text":"你想把他搶過來 這是你地盤被地盤被人家搶走了 點點 裝傻這樣子我沒有在搶啊 我們是合作啦合作啊 主導就贏啊主導就贏啊沒關係啦沒關係喔 有要緊啦我還是你 我就睡不著了啊事情都你在做的 對不對這個東西很奇怪是不是 新郎不是你啊 是不是很奇怪"},{"start":14641.101,"end":14647.425,"text":"蛤?你是不是覺得我心裡有點欲足?要不要拿去?沒有啦沒有啦Morning Happy喔?Morning Happy也不是這樣說蛤?就是...就是...一位長官交代主委,你這樣子人家瞧不起啊沒有,我們討論的結果的確是覺得事發部因為他這樣要解釋法律事發部只要點明線而已,他要什麼?"},{"start":14666.77,"end":14679.718,"text":"不然就出國 國會我們比較欺負親人你看我們底下的國會的長官 心裡都跟我一樣都覺得替你委屈 替你憤怒你這樣很奇怪你要不要小聲一點 講一些話代表你心裡的不滿 可以嗎"},{"start":14687.841,"end":14699.904,"text":"蘇發部因為才剛成立沒有多久他一定會慢慢的會賣所以你都不敢講而且這個重要的工作全力以赴我本來要很看得起你也沒辦法我們來看你國科會做什麼這最新的資料AI發展指數全球台灣百基賽一名"},{"start":14715.54,"end":14723.003,"text":"亞洲四小龍輸給香港 輸給韓國 輸給新加坡我們亞洲四小龍最後一名你覺得第一名美國 第二名中國大陸 第三名新加坡 第四名英國 第五名法國"},{"start":14735.362,"end":14754.659,"text":"South Korea 韓國是第六名我們 第二十一名你會覺得很害羞嗎AI 發展指數你AI 你現在只要講到AI要多少錢立法院都給你的你結果是二十一名你講一些來 講一些感受"},{"start":14756.607,"end":14782.7,"text":"我們因為過去的重點都是在包含AI的晶片還有雲端伺服器的設備等等這個製造一直在投資那當然我們現在新的這個做法也把我們AI的應用也放進來所以為了要做應用我們就要當然要加緊我們的那個算力的建置算力也不夠啊也不夠所以我們加緊嘛來來來看你的資料量你國科"},{"start":14785.862,"end":14804.568,"text":"各位做一個叫Tight對不對一點都不Tight資料量不夠 算力不足你只有一個Tight LX7V只有模型沒有介面你看今天排名牌都這麼後面我問你喔CHAT的GPD你用過沒有CHAT的GPD委員我問你 CHAT的GPD有沒有用過"},{"start":14810.726,"end":14826.91,"text":"有沒有用過有用過嘛就很簡單的把它下載App一按就可以了嘛我知道所以我跟委員報告我們很快就會發布這個介面的部分國安中心很努力啦我問你你給我一個時間表什麼時候你的Tide可以像ChatGPT一樣可以讓人家按了App把它Download然後放在一個Icon什麼時候你告訴我時間表"},{"start":14841.283,"end":14861.779,"text":"來來來 很重要 這個題目很重要給我們時間表 什麼時候我們公安中心主任來來來 主任呢 說跟委員報告 目前運用現有的預算在開發之前 部件算力 然後落實主權同時我們會訓練自己的你告訴我時間 因為我時間快到時間表 時間表 什麼時候可以APP APP APPAPP APP APP 什麼時候"},{"start":14867.745,"end":14875.971,"text":"我們其實目前的部件的方式我們有API手機可以用 只是說要對全民開放對全民開放 什麼時候對 我們算是要實施部件什麼時候 什麼時候 講時間啊很難訂出一個時間表要訂時間表 來來來 你不給我時間表我就不下去了來 我問你 我問你問這個這個東西國公 官員不負責任"},{"start":14889.742,"end":14904.827,"text":"有限度的開放不是全部民眾化我想應該在一兩年內就會一兩年喔 會就發料料了來 我們來看喔派的總共下載16.7萬次兩位長官特別無助的啊"},{"start":14905.928,"end":14925.749,"text":"比如說你棒球打很好啊 你看好啊16.7萬喔 Tide Tide Tide16.7萬 Deep Seek Deep SeekApp 下載超過一億啊ChatGPT 兩億啊因為他現在使用必須要比較專業的你看喔 ChatGPT 下載App 1.6億次 Deep Seek 一億"},{"start":14928.231,"end":14929.853,"text":"我去年接任以後就希望我們的國防中心要建立這個你不能希望啊 要做給我們看啊現在正在做結果就是這樣"},{"start":14944.873,"end":14965.021,"text":"但是真正要讓全民應用一定要產業界進來不是靠政府產業界進來我們期望今年今年就會有跟產業界的合作會有一些應用可以讓全民使用我們今年年底之前所以你修正剛才主任的話主任說兩年你是今年年底可以我會督促就是今年年底各位聽好喔各位看官聽好喔聽好我們這個話是公開諮詢的喔"},{"start":14973.113,"end":14978.273,"text":"吳主委承諾年底就有Tide FF"},{"start":14979.546,"end":14996.933,"text":"給大家去用使用Tide的模型來發展出來相關應用是不是我們就可以下載是不是這樣又可以怎麼樣下載loading年底前啊年底就可以來使用是你的Pi用啊你看16.7萬次啊Chat的GBT1.6萬次1.6億次啊Deep-seq是超過1億這要花多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":15012.065,"end":15038.035,"text":"你那個騙面的啦 人家背後花多少錢你都不知道背後花多少錢 你講一下你講一下啊 你要開火車 我也給你支持啊支持A51謝謝你後來撤掉啦 沒有刪那個五億我沒有提案 這個案子不要亂栽贓亂栽贓喔有你有提案 但是後來有撤掉 謝謝你 謝謝你不然那個五億我們今年就沒有辦法啟動我們再加一個零給你咧"},{"start":15039.417,"end":15042.535,"text":"五十億啊?真的喔?可不可以縮短半年?"},{"start":15044.949,"end":15071.814,"text":"沒有啦 錢從哪裡來 沒有錢我的做法這樣啦主計處告訴我 主計長告訴我要追加錢預算你可以在這裡面給他加一個零啦好 謝謝委員我跟委員報告我們講真的啦這個一定要民間進來所以我今年會努力讓民間也進來來開發這些應用軟體那我們會把這個介面 剛剛提到介面把它建設好會跟民間好啦 你主席站起來囉"},{"start":15072.754,"end":15087.8,"text":"我再次的提醒你啦喔你來這裡不能這樣子一點企圖心也沒有 因為有這樣這樣要單退稍微看 那不可以這樣你啦 你是主委耶 這麼大的官啊因為我把自己小看 地盤窮 手窮 店窮那社區的主委我們沒理由 主委好啦好啦好啦"},{"start":15095.162,"end":15118.645,"text":"好 謝謝賴慈寶委員質詢這個主委請回座我想我們這個質詢是很正式也很認真的那我們剛剛的這個數據我們委員整理得很辛苦我們也是鼓勵希望我們的這個部會可以一起努力那我們接續進行質詢請林倩琦委員質詢"},{"start":15132.435,"end":15144.721,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們所有的立院同仁還有我們部會首長大家早安 大家好我們是不是請一下吳主委請吳主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":15148.581,"end":15166.016,"text":"林委員好吳主委您好今天是本席在這個會期的第一次對國科會的一個質詢本席在這邊想要先跟您追蹤一下上個會期的質詢也順便藉這個機會有一些提醒那我這邊先就一兩個重點來跟您"},{"start":15166.897,"end":15191.978,"text":"探討一下其中一個應該主委還記得本席是原住民的身份所以我都會特別關心原住民在整個科研當中還有在國科會的相關的問題所以我一直還是很感謝您在去年一來到就職之後到本席的辦公室探討的時候我們就有講到在原住民的議題的研究上"},{"start":15192.518,"end":15207.711,"text":"那過去都只有整合型的計畫那是不是可以開放給個別型那主委在當場就因為我們行話講話所以你們也很清楚所以當場就答應給原住民的議題有個別型的研究"},{"start":15208.491,"end":15232.396,"text":"非常感謝這一點後來在執行的時候就有一個狀況發生了其實當時我這樣一個想法是希望我們在原住民議題的研究上有更大的空間但是會裡面在執行的時候我不知道是變異形式還是沒有想到所以你們在開了個別型研究的同時還是希望"},{"start":15232.876,"end":15252.382,"text":"在個別型還有整合型通通都在族群研究的架構下去做處理這個部分是不是可以請主委在今年或未來的研究上當您開放是個別型請不要再用一個主題或研究的方向把這樣一個研究的題材給限縮住那我覺得這樣對原住民"},{"start":15253.582,"end":15269.561,"text":"身份的或原住民议题的研究上可以有更宽广的空间是不是可以请主席引领一下谢谢委员的建议我了解一下但是我认为我们原住民的学者他不一定要研究原住民的主题的"},{"start":15270.261,"end":15291.162,"text":"這就是我的意思啊所以你們因為這個什麼族群關係的這個主題下那變成原住民的學者也好非原住民的學者也好在原住民的議題上都必須要研究族群關係那其實也很難再跳脫原住民這個框架的議題這是我的意思那請主委了解一下那是不是就我提的這個部分再做一些研討"},{"start":15292.863,"end":15312.602,"text":"好 謝謝另外第二個部分是我們在談到國科會的資金分配公立大學跟私立大學的一個差異我想主委那時候也很有同感因為您的背景上對私立大學也略有所知這個部分我可能再提醒一下希望在這個會期我們能夠有更往前的一些進度我們已經規劃"},{"start":15314.063,"end":15340.311,"text":"應該已經公佈了就是今年開始我們計劃申請我們會增加這個第一就是私立大學就是不會資源全部都是在國立然後我們技職體系當然原住民剛剛講的那個是沒有問題我們都按照委員的這個意思我們都擴大了所以資源就不會集中在少數的學校"},{"start":15340.751,"end":15354.639,"text":"好 謝謝 那也很高興至少這樣一個開啟那是不是請會內把相關的資訊也給我讓我再檢視一下是不是跟我們所講的這個方向是一致的好 謝謝主委那接下來呢我就接下來議題就最近的幾個議題來做討論"},{"start":15356.54,"end":15368.968,"text":"第二個部分就是中科二期擴建求證補償協商的這個爭議那當然這中間可能已經有一些過程那這個最主要就是這個新隆球場1750張的這個求證補償爭議也可能有點過久那大家集體的這個不滿"},{"start":15373.971,"end":15390.464,"text":"那在先前3月7號的時候呢又到中科院這邊去抗議那所以在這個中科院還有這個國科會的這個處理上感覺好像反映的這個整個制度的漏洞還有社會公平性的這個問題那我這邊先說明一下我關注的這個重點"},{"start":15392.225,"end":15417.846,"text":"當然在中科院管理局一直強調求證的補償是會員之間與公司之間的私權關係不屬於政府補償的範圍但是我這邊可能提醒一下當我們有國家推動比較重大的科技建設需要架構土地等等土地的取得不僅法律程序要完備"},{"start":15418.547,"end":15432.643,"text":"那對周遭民眾跟原權益人的信賴保護還有社會和諧的這個維繫我想是這件事情的一個重點那目前看起來經過好多次的協商這邊的資料是九次那協商會議中"},{"start":15433.584,"end":15447.083,"text":"好像也有所謂的口頭承諾但是這中間好像進展上很慢那興隆公司現在想要退還每一張求證14萬的保證金但是有求證的民眾對於這個"},{"start":15450.607,"end":15459.532,"text":"新農所開出來的條件跟他們的期待有很大的差異那我想要了解一下主委對這件事情在補償爭議上跟科技開發產生的社會對立的這樣一個狀況您怎麼看法"},{"start":15466.618,"end":15492.82,"text":"我們覺得這個並不能太廣泛講就是社會對立因為這個是少數的人跟那個興隆集團這邊他們在這個算是一種買賣嘛那對於這個這個他們不同意的這個金額如果想要變成是要全民來負擔這個我們並沒有依法無據啦這個對我們來講那我請我們那個中科局長也來解釋一下"},{"start":15494.207,"end":15514.554,"text":"不好意思喔 那是不是因為時間的關係我提一個重點啦主委您講的也是但是我提一個以前經常有的狀況像有一些博物館在建置的時候那常常都沒有注意到附近的民眾縱使您說是少數人可是這件事情就在於我們為了國家政策的這個開發是 我們絕對照顧民眾權益"},{"start":15518.276,"end":15545.215,"text":"對 產生的這個影響然後也一定因為有一點時間所以這個部分是不是可以再更積極的作為然後當然您說沒有這個社會正義公義或社會對立的這個問題但是少部分人有這樣子的狀況然後期待跟能夠做的有一些落差那是不是會裡面也可以再更積極的做一些處理我們不敢說介入啦但是積極的處理讓大家的共識能夠稍微再更近一點是不是有這個"},{"start":15545.996,"end":15559.153,"text":"可能性跟機會那對於那個背景我們大概都有一些了解啦那感謝那個中科這邊可能要做一個解釋只是時間的關係是不是請惠里再多加一些言議呢然後能夠減少這樣一個問題好"},{"start":15561.613,"end":15573.076,"text":"好 謝謝委員謝謝主委那我相信接下來最後一個就是大家也都非常關心那整個台積電赴美以後的狀況各方論述都有那這邊我們當然背景我這邊簡單介紹一下台積電雖然在台灣目前還有11條生產線的這個選址那當然也都還在推動"},{"start":15581.118,"end":15601.991,"text":"那第二個部分是他們也談到雖然您剛才有一些論述那AI產業鏈擴張的產業佈局所以也有部分需要在海外投資但是海外投資的動向跟國內產業鏈的一個穩定性也是我們整個國家經濟命脈跟產業安全的重要議題所以這邊我其實要討論的是"},{"start":15604.492,"end":15615.734,"text":"對於政府是不是有足夠的產業前瞻視野然後跟我們現在直接已經有碰到的土地資源調度的能力來承接這一波關鍵投資的這個機會您的看法呢"},{"start":15616.314,"end":15639.875,"text":"我們的確是有信心也很努力在做這個事情所以我覺得台積電不管是在台灣持續發展將來碰到這個寶盒的時候舊廠一定會翻新變成未來的新廠所以這個循環使用因為我們人力資源都有限將來它如果持續成長一定會往海外擴展這個也是必然的事實政府都會來協助"},{"start":15641.601,"end":15661.206,"text":"那我再提醒一點就是說你們經常在講說那這樣子的議題像科學園區的擴建跟產業用地的這個問題其實還是有某一種程度的被動跟分散所以當南科屏東園區跟農壇在規劃的時候那這個部分呢你們常常都等待地方政府提案"},{"start":15661.966,"end":15689.21,"text":"有沒有可能再更積極一點來處理呢也不是等待地方政府地方政府也可以主動來規劃來選合適的地方對他們施政容易的但是我們重點就是我們的科技產業的發展也要適合所以我們的這個科學園區的這個選址一定會基於產業的需求這是第一個要件產業需求他覺得這塊地符合的話"},{"start":15689.75,"end":15712.785,"text":"那中央政府各部會搭配的地方政府就共同來推動這樣好的 那您談到這個核心問題所以我這邊做一個提醒我們希望這個建制產業園區的時候雖然您說也會考慮到很多個面向但是我希望不要因為政黨的色彩來決定選址的一個允諾好嗎不會 所以我們現在台中這個園區還有農產我們同步在進行當中謝謝"},{"start":15719.509,"end":15726.432,"text":"謝謝林建錡委員的質詢時間的關係我想請主委可以在書面予以回覆謝謝主委 謝謝大家"},{"start":15731.55,"end":15759.19,"text":"主委請回座謝謝接下來我們繼續質詢的話是請羅明財委員質詢羅明財委員羅明財委員不在好那我想我們今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢關於今天會議所做的如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入記錄並刊登公報"},{"start":15760.272,"end":15772.594,"text":"對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆的部分也請相關機關盡速與書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在休息謝謝各位"},{"start":15787.627,"end":15788.188,"text":"薄荷花"}]}},{"id":"159297","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159297","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbd1b1e51b05b315a7100c4df18311f68d585e58b3f30dad423c75c7788f2af55f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:12:36 - 09:15:11","影片長度":"00:02:35","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T09:12:36+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T09:15:11+08:00","duration":155,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.097843750000001,"end":31.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.570343750000003,"end":34.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.48971875,"end":57.659093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.91221875,"end":62.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.77221875,"end":77.08221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.79096875,"end":80.25471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.49096875000001,"end":85.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.02596875,"end":103.86284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.45346875000001,"end":124.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.05346875000001,"end":151.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.73721875,"end":153.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.04909375,"end":155.07846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.333,"end":30.861,"text":"謝謝主席 各位委員本期提出中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法主要是因為目前我國各項紀念日及節日之名稱日期與放假方法應涉及人民的權利義務關係依照中央法規標準法第五條之規定關於人民之權利義務者應以法律定制但長年以來我們卻一直用實施辦法來規範是有未接過的之餘其次在本期所提出版本之中"},{"start":31.681,"end":53.38,"text":"特別增訂823紀念日在當前大家看到現在在戰爭與和平的抉擇關口民心動盪不安之際更顯重要我們可以拿俄烏戰爭當作借鏡這一場戰爭已經打了三年多至今仍未結束但是烏克蘭人民曾經違列家園現在已經都變成了斷緣殘壁這段痛苦的歷史記憶"},{"start":60.006,"end":74.902,"text":"當年也是有同樣深刻的體驗1958年就是民國47年的8月23日一共有超過47萬發的炮彈落在金門的島上造成金門的軍民死傷無數防射損毀家人"},{"start":77.865,"end":103.216,"text":"家園殘破 流離失所最後即便最後是在全國居民一心上下一心共同守衛國家獲得了最後的勝利但這個和平的代價是相當相當可怕而且是可貴的這個歷史不應該被遺忘我們常說只有在經歷過戰爭的可怕才能夠深刻了解到和平的彌足珍貴尤其在這個時候"},{"start":104.797,"end":124.173,"text":"臺灣面臨總戰爭的這個邊緣臺澎金馬的這個和平與安全是當年金門全縣居民用生命用家園拼死所務所換來的因此和平紀念日的訂定不僅可以讓全國人民記得當年慘痛的戰爭記憶更重要的是要喚醒大家對於和平的這個珍惜"},{"start":126.141,"end":152.921,"text":"我們也了解到這個假日的多寡牽涉到勞資雙方與國家的整體競爭力因此今天感謝召委排審此案一方面將國定假日的方價依據提升至法律位階二方面則期盼是朝野各黨團能夠正視823這段血淚歷史教訓用這場居民同心拼死捍衛家園的歷史團結民心共同捍衛中華民國以上 謝謝各位支持好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159246","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159246","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb3a280c59b0053c78100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e9191a35537b01a31fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:32:13 - 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各位委員及各位嘉賓們 大家早安各國近年來持續調整法定假日制度以符合社會需求與勞工權益保障我國目前的假期規範僅依行政命令"},{"start":29.69,"end":52.416,"text":"纪念日及节日实施办法缺杂法律保障保持放假标准不一致例如劳动节为全国统一放假公务人员与劳工适用不同的标准补班制度增加劳工负担削弱"},{"start":53.676,"end":71.117,"text":"休假的意義 全球七四朝向增加休假天數 提升休假的彈性各國政府與企業開始關注勞工身心健康與工作的效力"},{"start":72.751,"end":86.068,"text":"推動更友善休假的制度良好的休假安排不僅能減少壓力提升工作效率與安全性更能讓勞工"},{"start":87.97,"end":109.201,"text":"有更多时间陪伴我们的家人参与社会活动提高生活品质此外休假也能促进观光及消费带动经济发展正地企业离职率吸引人才形成双赢的局面因此"},{"start":110.882,"end":134.228,"text":"我们提出纪念日及节日实施条例提升假期制度及法律层级统一国定假日的标准取消补班机制建立弹性休假的制度让假期更符合社会的需求"},{"start":135.679,"end":152.836,"text":"請各位委員共同支持紀念日及節日實施條例草案確保國人享有更公平合理放假的制度提升勞工副職與社會和諧以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159245","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159245","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb3883769c9c84177e100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e91cd96134d60f48eef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:27:27 - 09:32:08","影片長度":"00:04:41","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T09:27:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T09:32:08+08:00","duration":281,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.494093750000001,"end":56.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.359718750000006,"end":62.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.94096875,"end":67.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.07096875,"end":75.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.31034375,"end":85.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.50284375000001,"end":93.70409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.15971875000001,"end":109.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.10659375,"end":114.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.35471875,"end":121.53096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.71659375,"end":125.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.12096875,"end":127.42034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.11221875,"end":128.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.39471875,"end":130.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.35659375,"end":131.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.94284375,"end":134.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.86221875,"end":138.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.96284375000002,"end":140.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.88659375,"end":141.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.76409375,"end":153.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.12909375,"end":169.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.87784375,"end":171.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.88596875000002,"end":188.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.25034375,"end":202.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.90221875,"end":204.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.51784375000003,"end":206.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.47971875000002,"end":208.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.50471875000002,"end":211.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.63909375,"end":213.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.95534375000003,"end":216.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.16159375,"end":217.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.92096875000001,"end":221.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.65034375000002,"end":224.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.94096875000002,"end":226.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.51034375,"end":239.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.58846875,"end":242.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.45284375000003,"end":244.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.19534375,"end":251.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.69596875000002,"end":256.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.93596875000003,"end":276.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.00034375,"end":280.40909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.756,"end":34.315,"text":"主席 各位部会同仁 立院同仁还有在座的媒体朋友们 大家好本席在这边针对国家纪念日及节日实施法草案来做这样一个提案说明长期以来 我国纪念日跟节日的制度仅依照行政命令在执行缺乏法律的慰藉与制度的稳定导致假期的安排非常的混乱这个调整的一个频繁让政策也很容易受到干扰"},{"start":34.855,"end":61.861,"text":"那引發社會的不滿跟制度正義的一個質疑因此我們在這邊希望能夠將紀念日及節日實施辦法提升為法律正式的法律已經是一個課不容緩應該要改革的這個方向那這不僅是一個立法技術的問題更關乎我們整個國家公共治理的態度那也就是我們現在要從一個行政便利的狀況邁向法治的保障"},{"start":63.001,"end":80.452,"text":"我們必須正視當前假期制度的諸多不公平及不便彈性放假造成了補班的困擾勞動節僅限於特定的職業在放假教師節以及原住民相關的節日沒有受到正式的保障"},{"start":81.552,"end":105.016,"text":"顯示制度設計缺乏全面性與公平性國民對於假期的預期應該要建立在比較穩定的法制制度上而不是年年依賴行政上的調整內政部應該明確地表態來支持這個法案的立法並說明是不是已經有初步法案規劃以及基本制度設計的原則讓民眾對假期制度討論這麼久"},{"start":110.154,"end":130.871,"text":"政府如果還一直停留在這個嚴密的階段很難以回應社會的期待本席主張應該重構一套比較公平也具有文化包容性的假日制度各黨團的版本已經增列出原住民日823紀念日教師節國防日等假期"},{"start":132.152,"end":153.034,"text":"顯示社會對於多元價值的一個重視那我們如果只是一味增加假日而沒有整體的評估也會陷於民粹化所以本席在這邊建議內政部應該考慮建立跨部會的一個審議的機制然後比較明確的來評估以平衡文化意義跟社會經濟的影響"},{"start":155.185,"end":171.312,"text":"作為原住民族籍的立法委員本席特別強調原住民族日應該納入制度保障這不僅是休假問題而已也是對原住民族的文化與歷史地位的肯定與認同根據憲法增修條文"},{"start":172.152,"end":188.425,"text":"國家肯定多元文化假日的制度因為長期被忽略所以原住民族的傳統節令政府應該藉這個機會來正面回應制度化原民遂時忌遺的假期來落實憲政的精神"},{"start":189.366,"end":211.554,"text":"此外本席建議增設民族平等紀念日為國定假日象徵族群和平與歷史的反思讓全民共同理解台灣多元族群與歷史文化深化轉型正義的內涵假期不應該淪為只是放假也是我們整體國家的記憶跟社會教育的具體"},{"start":214.159,"end":229.884,"text":"體現應承認歷史脈絡與價值傳遞的功能最後彈性放假制度長年引發民怨與勞動困境已經也不是單純行政調整可以解決的所以補班制度的效能低落造成學民的困擾也造成企業的困擾"},{"start":230.524,"end":251.241,"text":"所以我們應該把它納入法律架構中來統整設計明確的規範彈性放假與補班的機制使假期的制度比較能夠符合預期與公平內政部不知道是不是可以支持這樣一個法制的方向然後提出比較具體的配套模型才是我們制度改革的一個關鍵"},{"start":253.735,"end":279.736,"text":"周上而論紀念日及假日的實施法應該不僅是只有技術立法更應該體現公平文化包容與歷史記憶的整個制度工程期盼內政部能夠正面回應我們一起共同來推動一部真正符合多元社會期待的法案以上 謝謝好 謝謝林建祺委員下一位我們請台灣民眾黨"}]}},{"id":"159244","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159244","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb4794890b80935007100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e91a736555d495dface5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:24:07 - 09:27:23","影片長度":"00:03:16","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T09:24:07+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T09:27:23+08:00","duration":196,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.04221875,"end":15.775343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.20971875,"end":61.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.62471875000001,"end":72.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.35284375,"end":80.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.79034375,"end":96.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.34909375000001,"end":130.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.20034375,"end":172.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.08409375000002,"end":193.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.17784375000002,"end":195.74721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.236,"end":35.628,"text":"主席在座的各位官員各位委員各位媒體先進大家好到底哪些節日該紀念哪些節日該放假是影響人民生活的重要議題然而呢在過去紀念日跟假日都沒有經過代表民意的立法院來討論而是由執政的政府呢來"},{"start":36.869,"end":57.855,"text":"進行自行決定那麼導致與人民的期待產生落差那目前紀念日及節日的實施辦法是早在民國43年就已經制定了那麼期間雖然經過多次的修正但是呢每逢要增修或是刪減假日和紀念日常常會引起社會的這個討論以及紛擾"},{"start":61.716,"end":80.476,"text":"因此多年来国定假日法制化的呼声向来没有停过而是积极的诉求必须要将这个实施办法法制化那么这个就是攸关所以这次我们诸多的委员"},{"start":81.88,"end":96.04,"text":"希望能够将这个攸关国家重要历史文化纪念族群职业尊严和大众权益的重要事项予以法治化来确保国定假日能够有效的稳定的实施"},{"start":97.421,"end":125.879,"text":"那么将本来是属于行政命令未接的纪念日及节日的实施办法提升它的法律未接来制定条例那么让制定纪念日及节日的相关标准可以更加一致因此本席在这里就提出了纪念日及节日的实施条例草案除了维持既有的纪念日及放假日的规定之外本席又提出台湾光复纪念日和行限纪念日"},{"start":127.001,"end":129.84,"text":"必須要回復為國定的放假日"},{"start":131.863,"end":156.291,"text":"我們知道其實光復節是台灣結束被日本殖民時期被日本的殖民來重回中華民國的懷抱而行獻紀念日更是慶祝中華民國進入一個自由民主法治的重要時刻所以光復節與行獻紀念日可以說是台灣人民所自豪的民主憲政價值那麼同時也是與台灣緊密連結的一個重要的時刻"},{"start":160.993,"end":171.759,"text":"那麼民調也顯示有超過六成五億以上的民眾是支持台灣光復節和行限紀念日訂定為國定假日的"},{"start":173.171,"end":192.251,"text":"那麼在此我們也期待所有的委員都能夠支持我們一起來制定紀念日及假日的實施條例,一同支持讓光復節與行限紀念日回歸到國定的放假日的行列,來讓我們一同紀念進入民主與法治的時代。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"159247","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159247","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb70a619188a1c8a9e100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e9191295010ed49b34a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:34:57 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09:37:58","影片長度":"00:03:01","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T09:34:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T09:37:58+08:00","duration":181,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.4778437500000003,"end":3.2372187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.8953437500000003,"end":28.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.59596875,"end":38.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.01221875,"end":48.344093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.93471875,"end":66.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.88971875,"end":68.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.98221875,"end":97.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.53471875000001,"end":177.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.61471875,"end":181.55534375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.729,"end":18.903,"text":"謝謝主席這個現行有關於紀念日跟節日的名稱日期紀念或者是慶祝的方式以及放假的規定辦理等等事宜主要是按照內政部訂定的紀念日及節日實施辦法的規定來做辦理"},{"start":19.443,"end":48.119,"text":"但是考量今天是節日跟時事放假對於國家的發展歷史對於傳統民俗對於社會文化的紀念傳承肯定還有放假也關乎全國工商經濟發展以及人民的日常生活其實影響是非常大的也涉及了人民的權利跟義務當然就應該要依照中央法規標準法第五條二款規定以法律的位階來定之也應該經過立法院嚴謹而且充分的審查"},{"start":49.019,"end":49.319,"text":"因此本席提案"},{"start":69.028,"end":92.044,"text":"透過紀念日及節日實施條例的修法將這個七天假還給勞工新增的七天假國定假日分別為7月15號簡言紀念日8月1號原住民族日9月21號國家防災日9月28號孔子誕辰紀念日也就是教師節農曆的9月9號是我們敬老的崇洋節以及12月25號的行縣紀念日最後是農曆12月28號的小年夜"},{"start":97.828,"end":124.856,"text":"這些放假大部分集中在下半年當然就是考量我們的勞工朋友上半年假比較多下半年假比較少的一個狀況當然在這個價別的選擇過程中我們也考量了這個社會的接受度以及政治的爭議不要太高主要我們的初衷很單純讓勞工的朋友有更多時間休息或者是服務業的朋友如果真的要加班你至少要有兩倍工資的這樣子相對好的待遇"},{"start":125.476,"end":140.274,"text":"這樣子其實也可以促進服務業的消費經濟發展我們希望整個大院用開放的心態來面對還給勞工七天假的議題這個議案最早被拋出來的時候很多人馬上就扣上了政治意識形態的大帽子"},{"start":140.694,"end":168.347,"text":"宣稱什麼威權復辟但我想聽了剛剛的提案說明我想這樣子的指控是多慮的我們不應該用政治的立場跟語言影響勞工休息的機會希望大家可以理性而且秉於事實來做討論我剛剛聽到林倩琪委員的提案說明非常非常她提到一點是非常好的她說要注重公平以及文化包容性今天有非常多的委員提出版本我們會在接下來的討論過程中"},{"start":169.307,"end":176.901,"text":"讓大家充分提出意見並且進行討論審核期待這部法案可以順利修正還給勞工朋友應有公道謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159243","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159243","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb6b4344fbc7c8a326100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e91ad7dde790f3a16825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"09:20:03 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09:24:01","影片長度":"00:03:58","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T09:20:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T09:24:01+08:00","duration":238,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.84471875,"end":12.957218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.328468750000003,"end":20.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.43284375,"end":51.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.516593750000006,"end":52.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.83284375,"end":56.477843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.102218750000006,"end":64.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.86471875000001,"end":111.40596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.57471875,"end":112.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.48596875000001,"end":132.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.70221875000001,"end":144.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.58221875,"end":170.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.10971875,"end":176.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.49284375000002,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.42346875,"end":195.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.81471875000003,"end":200.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.52284375000002,"end":202.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.69534375,"end":235.09971875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.108,"end":32.204,"text":"今天是紀念日和節日實施條例草案的提案說明首先呢 增訂國定假日保障勞工的基本權益這是從2000年開始勞工就一直在爭取更好的工時跟休息日但是呢 我們的政府拖延了15年才將工時縮短到每週40個小時卻在同時也取消了7天的國定假日"},{"start":33.124,"end":55.298,"text":"勞工成為唯一的犧牲者現在我們大家都在為勞工的基本休息權在發聲所以我強烈的要求要恢復七天的假期讓勞工得到應該要有的尊重和他們的權利第二個我要談的是原住民族的遂時祭儀"},{"start":57.179,"end":75.585,"text":"原住民的睡食既以促进全国人民对原住民的文化的尊重还有学习原住民族各族都有各自独特的文化的伴俗还有方式像是阿美族的一粒信大概是五到七天"},{"start":76.505,"end":96.546,"text":"还有塞夏族的巴斯达艾艾林纪大概要30天所以我们从这几个例子来看它呈现出的是各族不同的文化还有族群关系而这些文化不仅仅要受到保护当然更重要的是要予以传承"},{"start":97.367,"end":110.556,"text":"所以我們在提案當中我們希望各族的歲時祭儀能夠有三天的假期讓我們的族人可以回去來接受文化的傳承"},{"start":112.617,"end":131.968,"text":"第三个透过纪念日还有节日我们希望能够让国人了解原住民族的历史还有尊严我大概提两个节日第一个就是在1895年的10月31号我们认为他是原住民族的历史上通日"},{"start":133.208,"end":151.801,"text":"當時日本政府發布了日令26號強行的沒收了原住民族的土地這讓非常多的族人流離失所雖然戰後這個命令被廢止了可是土地到現在都還沒有歸還"},{"start":153.762,"end":165.737,"text":"這也是原住民族的還我土地運動的根源因此我們認為透過立法將這一天定定為原住民族的轉型正義紀念日讓大家來正視這段歷史"},{"start":171.184,"end":187.563,"text":"同时在1914年的6月26号泰鲁格族成功的击退了日军这也是抗争精神的象征所以我们希望也透过这一次的立法定为"},{"start":188.745,"end":202.527,"text":"6月26号为原住民族的抵抗日让原住民族继续来为我们自己的土地的正义继续的奋斗最后我提的转型正义"},{"start":203.752,"end":207.755,"text":"紀念日還有傷痛日因為還沒有過復育期所以在逐條審查的時候我希望請在場的各委員們還有機關能夠支持我的提案尤其園民會"},{"start":220.783,"end":233.89,"text":"能夠讓法案順利的出委員會並且在三讀通過後來實質的保障憲法賦予每一名勞工還有原住民族的權益以及尊嚴謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159242","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159242","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb7a9736c65ed80e01100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e9111a9d0916dc8a51f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:10:08 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對台灣 對中華民國都是可長可久的修法方向以上 謝謝好 謝謝侯孟楷委員"}]}},{"id":"159296","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159296","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbbd05beeb76b76e18100c4df18311f68d585e58b3f30dad427cf64100f1aa8a575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"13:37:15 - 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劉部長有請"},{"start":18.451,"end":37.737,"text":"兩位好我想這次國定假日跟節日修法的討論我想本席有幾個主張第一個主張就是除了希望可以為警察與消防在消防節還有警察節可以放假一日外"},{"start":39.677,"end":65.932,"text":"另外的一個主張就是希望再把這個8月1日的援助民族日定為國定假日那8月1號援助民族日的由來呢是1993年台灣援助民族權力促進會也就是援權會當時有發起了這個援助民族正名運動那援權會呢在這個體制外倡議了10年"},{"start":67.333,"end":94.252,"text":"終於在1994年的8月1號的國民大會通過將山胞改為原住民那原住民族是最早成為這塊土地的主人所以原住民的正名是原住民族轉型正義的起源那8月1號這一天呢它代表著尊重原住民族的文化歷史那更是在台灣多元族群融合的象徵所以本席認為呢8月1號這一天"},{"start":95.493,"end":105,"text":"不是局限在台灣的原住民族而已他更凸顯了我們整個台灣落實兩公約的這個深遠的意涵所以"},{"start":106.86,"end":131.994,"text":"本席特別主張也贊成希望在8月1日可以全國放假一天那另外呢我第三個主張就是希望在這個歲時計一假可以改為三日那因為像我舉例我們卑南族除了就是說在這個跨年的年紀之外呢我們還有收穫季那還有這個阿美族當然他"},{"start":133.114,"end":154.899,"text":"除了這個一粒性之外呢還有這個海濟等等那因為我們因應各族他不同的這個文化不同的技藝其實在者就是我們原住民大概有一半的人口都在都會區工作那這個往返如果只是"},{"start":155.659,"end":169.325,"text":"那个飞机直接或者火车直接到达市区或原乡市区但是很多人还要再可能开个一两个小时的车子才能回到部落"},{"start":170.946,"end":185.319,"text":"除了就是说一年的这个岁数计有好几好几好几个以外呢另外就是说其实我想在很多好几个族群我们其实都有分年龄阶层我们一个简单的大家可能以为"},{"start":187.06,"end":192.963,"text":"這個阿美族的一粒性就是你們俗稱的我們不喜歡用豐年紀來講的我講豐年紀會被糾正所以你要講一粒性這樣好那這個各個階層都有不同的工作要上山打獵要去砍竹子"},{"start":202.688,"end":228.771,"text":"然後還要蓋一些傳統的一些小型的建築很多的工作要做的男女有別大家都有不同的工作所以這個不是你們想像中一天的記憶而已扣掉交通那我們其他真的做文化傳承的工作是真的不夠的所以這個部分我不曉得就是"},{"start":230.593,"end":244.669,"text":"我想這個原民會主委一定支持啦這個我們絕對不會懷疑但我不曉得就是說內政部這邊的態度是怎麼樣是不是主委跟部長可以都發表一下意見"},{"start":245.69,"end":263.183,"text":"好謝謝陳議委員的關心陳議委員在原鄉地區可以說是為民喉舌非常努力那有關你所提到的碎石記憶的部分在我們的一個實施辦法裡面是放在第四條原住民族的碎石記憶的話各該原住民族放假日期"},{"start":263.743,"end":285.933,"text":"由行政院原住民族委員會參酌各該原住民族習俗公告並且刊登政府公報也就是我們內政部呢都是尊重原民會的一個公告那目前我所了解就是說原住民的睡食計是以一天的放假為主那如果要解決相關的其他問題的話可能要請原民會來跟陳委員報告是那原民會"},{"start":289.977,"end":307.676,"text":"這個隨時計改為三天當然我們是支持但是這個涉及到整個國家的總體經濟還有企業的經營層面很廣那我們是建議我們會再跟主管機關我們再來通盤考量但我們還是尊重委員的這個意見謝謝"},{"start":309.498,"end":334.892,"text":"因為通常尊重就會有蠻多的變數當你不知道要做什麼反應的時候我們就尊重那我想我還是希望說園民會可以在這個部分我很清楚主委是絕對理解我們這樣的需求那個主委我想我們單純就我們以這個碎石記憶文化傳承的這個角度去看這樣要求三天假合不合理"},{"start":336.453,"end":356.614,"text":"單純看這樣子是合理單純看是合理因為這個很多的原因對那但因為涉及到要請假的時候就會可能很多的公司老闆就會開始計算這個公司營運有沒有受影響啦好點點點那所以這個部分我還是在這邊要求主委"},{"start":357.054,"end":359.375,"text":"因為過年之後我發現一個很奇特的現象"},{"start":376.562,"end":404.338,"text":"就是說我們有很多重要的會刊包括像那個改善部落環境部落道路還有聚會所的修繕那為什麼你們都沒有派同仁來呢我跟委員報告我們是用適性的方式但最主要是因為我們的這個猜理會有被刪除了百分之二十兩百多萬那我們希望則最重要的是一定要去看的我們在"},{"start":405.459,"end":420.649,"text":"因為有時候你沒有到現場看你也不知道什麼是重要不重要但這也不怪你啦因為現在就是工程的會刊你們幾乎都沒有辦法派人因為你們的旅費被刪掉很多啊所以這個部分我覺得"},{"start":424.311,"end":438.378,"text":"這個隔空抓藥啦視訊什麼有時候很難因為有時候是因為現場風大造成了一些影響或者什麼樣原因到現場看還是最實際的嘛所以我是不贊同啦就是說"},{"start":441.048,"end":461.977,"text":"你用這樣的方式是很難去落實實際到現場會刊的那種意義確實我們在去年預算審查的時候我們某位立委同事說絕對會把預算刪減得很有感我告訴各位我們原住民真的很有感而且我們是很反感"},{"start":462.737,"end":482.19,"text":"因為山道這樣 我們真的急需修繕的這些不管是聚會所 或者是一些道路的修繕或者一些建設 園鄉部落的建設我想這些你們都沒有到部落去生活過 去看過 就不知道在立法院有這個職權 隨便大筆一揮"},{"start":485.672,"end":506.57,"text":"我們寫幾個數字三幾個零是很容易的但是要看看人家在部落會造成什麼樣的影響我想我今天特別在這裡提出來也希望在未來真的我們有這個職權是選民賦予我們的我今天在這裡也是部落我們的族人一票一票投給我可以站在這邊"},{"start":507.671,"end":527.187,"text":"好但是但是我們其他其他同仁沒不了解這是狀況那這樣子亂山我很不認同啦所以我想那個主委我也希望你把這個狀況跟行政院做反應然後看看能夠怎麼樣來補救改善我們這樣的一個困境好好謝謝好謝謝陳英文"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1333,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時37分）謝謝主席，麻煩請原民會主委跟內政部部長。"],["主席：曾主委、劉部長，有請。"],["陳委員瑩：兩位好。關於這次國定假日跟節日修法的討論，本席有幾個主張。除了第一個主張是希望警察與消防在消防節還有警察節可以放假1日外，另一個主張就是希望把8月1日的原住民族日訂為國定假日。8月1號原住民族日的由來是1993年臺灣原住民族權利促進會，也就是原權會當時發起了原住民族正名運動，而原權會在體制外倡議了10年，終於在1994年8月1號的國民大會通過將「山胞」改為「原住民」。原住民族最早成為這塊土地的主人，所以原住民的正名是原住民族轉型正義的起源。8月1號這一天代表著尊重原住民族的文化歷史，更是在臺灣多元族群融合的象徵，本席認為8月1號這一天不是侷限在臺灣原住民族而已，更凸顯了我們整個臺灣落實兩公約這個深遠的意涵。所以本席特別主張、也贊成，希望在8月1日可以全國放假1天。","另外，我第三個主張就是希望歲時祭儀假可以改為3日。我以我們卑南族舉例，除了跨年的年祭之外，還有收穫祭。當然還有阿美族，除了Ilisin之外，還有海祭等等。因應各族不同文化有不同祭儀。再者，我們原住民大概有一半人口都在都會區工作，往返時如果飛機或火車只是直接到達外縣市或原鄉市區，很多人可能還要再開個一、兩小時的車才能回到部落。除了一年的歲時祭儀有好幾個以外，好幾個族群其實都有分年齡階層啦！大家可能以為一個簡單的……以阿美族的Ilisin來講，就是你們俗稱的「豐年祭」，我們不喜歡用「豐年祭」來講，講「豐年祭」還會被糾正，要求你講Ilisin。各階層都有不同工作，要上山打獵、要砍竹子、還要蓋一些傳統小型建築，有很多工作要做的啦！且男女有別，大家都有不同工作，所以不是你們想像中1天的祭儀而已，扣掉交通，還有其他，要做文化傳承的工作是真的不夠。所以這部分我想原民會主委一定支持啦！這個我們絕對不會懷疑，但不曉得內政部這邊的態度怎麼樣，主委跟部長是不是可以都發表一下意見？"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝陳瑩委員的關心，陳瑩委員在原鄉地區可以說為民喉舌、非常地努力。有關你所提到歲時祭儀的部分，在實施辦法裡面是放在第四條，關於原住民族的歲時祭儀，各該原住民族放假日期由行政院原住民族委員會參酌各該原住民族習俗公告，並且刊登政府公報，也就是我們內政部都是尊重原民會的公告。以目前我所了解的，原住民的歲時祭儀是以1天放假為主，如果要解決其他相關問題，可能要請原民會跟陳委員報告。"],["陳委員瑩：是，原民會？"],["曾主任委員智勇：歲時祭儀改為3天，當然我們支持，但是這涉及整個國家的總體經濟還有企業經營，層面很廣。我們的建議是我們再跟主管機關通盤考量，但還是尊重委員的意見。"],["陳委員瑩：通常「尊重」就會有滿多變數，當你不知道要做什麼反應的時候，就會說「我們就尊重」。我想，還是希望原民會可以在這個部分……我很清楚主委絕對理解我們這樣的需求，那麼主委，我們就單純以歲時祭儀文化傳承這個角度去看這樣要求3天假合不合理，單純看。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是合理，單純看是合理。"],["陳委員瑩：好。"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為很多原因啦！"],["陳委員瑩：但因為涉及請假的時候，可能就會有很多公司老闆開始計算公司營運有沒有受影響等等。我還是在這邊要求主委據理力爭，達成我們……其實不論我走到哪裡，大家都會做這樣的訴求。謝謝，部長可以先請回座。","時間到了，我快速講一下這件事情。主委，我想請教一下，因為過年之後，我發現一個很奇特的現象，就是我們有很多重要的會勘，包括改善部落環境、部落道路，還有聚會所的修繕，為什麼你們都沒有派同仁來呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，我們是透過視訊方式，但最主要是因為我們的差旅費被刪除了20%，兩百多萬元，我們希望擇最重要的、一定要去看的再……"],["陳委員瑩：有時候，沒到現場看也不知道什麼重要，什麼不重要。"],["曾主任委員智勇：了解。"],["陳委員瑩：當然這也不怪你啦！現在工程會勘你們幾乎都沒有辦法派人，是因為你們的旅費被刪掉很多啊！但在這個部分，我覺得隔空抓藥視訊什麼的很難判斷，因為有時候是現場風大造成一些影響，或者有什麼樣的原因，到現場看還是最實際的嘛！"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["陳委員瑩：所以我是不贊同啦！你用這樣的方式很難落實實際到現場會勘那種意義啦！確實，在去年預算審查的時候，某位立委同事說啦：「絕對會把預算刪減得很有感」。我告訴各位，我們原住民真的很有感，而且我們是很反感！因為刪到這樣，影響了我們真的急需修繕的這些，不管是聚會所、一些道路修繕，或者一些原鄉部落的建設。我想對於這些，你們都沒有到部落生活過、看過，就不知道在立法院有這個職權隨便大筆一揮，我們寫幾個數字、刪幾個零是很容易的，但是要看看人家在部落會造成什麼樣的影響。我今天特別在這裡提出來，也希望未來……真的，我們有這個職權，是選民賦予我們的，我今天在這裡，也是我們的部落、族人一票一票投給我，我才可以站在這邊。但是其他同仁不了解這個狀況，這樣亂刪，我很不認同啦！主委，我也希望你把這個狀況跟行政院反映，看看能夠怎麼樣補救、改善這樣的困境。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的質詢。","登記發言的委員除不在場者之外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答到此結束。","翁曉玲委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159295","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159295","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbeadd2d57fba07e66100c4df18311f68d585e58b3f30dad4294a7d0e73f209c415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"13:28:24 - 13:37:08","影片長度":"00:08:44","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T13:28:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T13:37:08+08:00","duration":524,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.34596875,"end":10.493468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.645343750000002,"end":11.235968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.04534375,"end":16.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.28534375,"end":20.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.79159375,"end":34.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.860968750000005,"end":41.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.56909375,"end":40.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.22284375,"end":48.057218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.471593750000004,"end":42.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.158468750000004,"end":59.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.751593750000005,"end":74.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.93721875000001,"end":61.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.63534375,"end":111.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.35534375,"end":113.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.78534375000001,"end":119.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.92784375000001,"end":122.59409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.03284375000001,"end":124.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.22659375,"end":143.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.18159375000002,"end":153.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.72846875000002,"end":161.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.77471875,"end":155.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.03596875000002,"end":157.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.63034375,"end":163.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.70159375,"end":166.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.74346875,"end":166.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.80659375000002,"end":166.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.87409375000001,"end":189.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.89096875,"end":166.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.72284375,"end":190.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.16159375,"end":232.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.57034375,"end":194.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.40534375000001,"end":196.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.99159375000002,"end":198.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.16346875000002,"end":242.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.66971875000002,"end":234.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.98471875,"end":243.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.13221875000002,"end":244.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.12784375,"end":262.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.84471875000003,"end":247.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.75971875000002,"end":251.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.51909375000002,"end":251.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.36284375000002,"end":252.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.84221875000003,"end":279.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.07221875,"end":276.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.12284375,"end":276.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.27846875,"end":312.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.41659375,"end":322.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.54596875000004,"end":331.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.52409375,"end":343.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.12659375000004,"end":333.46409375},{"spea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謝謝部長那因為那個我覺得不管是不是人事行政總署的問題啦但是內政部應該也是要有個態度啦因為我在教育文化委員會的時候前幾天我有質詢教育部那時候我問他們說知不支持教師節放假"},{"start":92.105,"end":119.563,"text":"那教師節放假這個議題在前幾個禮拜有一個教團來立法院開記者會當時藍綠白很多位立委都有出席都一致支持啦那當然支持的原因一方面是大家覺得說台灣應該也是可以多放幾天假第二個可以選定為教師節為目標為什麼因為尊師重道嘛然後讓這個老師們在這一天也可以放假全國都可以因為這樣子放假那我問教育部啊"},{"start":120.063,"end":123.632,"text":"這一部一開始的時候也是推給內政部他說這個是內政部決定的"},{"start":125.27,"end":153.101,"text":"那後來我問那個教育部說那不管是不是內政部決定你教育部的態度是什麼如果說人事警政總署詢問大家教師節該不該放假的時候那教育部你支持嗎後來教育部說他支持所以我現在也是問內政部您的態度就是說如果是人事警政總署來問跟你們這邊問詢問說假設我們現在要增加幾天假或者是把這個假打字化的話我不知道部長你的態度是什麼"},{"start":153.78,"end":168.587,"text":"有關法制化的問題我剛已經回答過葉委員我希望維持現狀是一個實施辦法因為我們認為比較有彈性那第二個有關增加放假哪一個教師節先講還是有關教師節的部分就是我今天在跟很多委員的時候特別提到我們會認為說根據身份別的部分的話來做紀念活動本來就有"},{"start":178.092,"end":192.393,"text":"譬如說有的是婦女 有的是青年有的是兒童 有的是勞動的但是你如果單單提出來說教師節要讓他慶祝以外還要放假那就會牽涉到每個委員有不同的版本有的委員沒有放進去有的委員放進去"},{"start":193.274,"end":212.225,"text":"就是委員26個版本有33天需要放假這個就變成說社會上的共識是不太足的那我們希望說社會上的共識比較足會比較好這是第二個那第三個有關放假日要不要增加那我們已經跟各位回答過就是說我們的"},{"start":213.226,"end":236.612,"text":"放假日再加上週休二日目前為止大概就是一般人是一百一十五天如果是勞動勞工的話是一百一十六天那你如果要增加一天增加兩天增加三天甚至有人要增加到七天或九天請問你要增加在哪裡那我們的立場是不要用身分別所以不然那我可以這樣解讀嗎就是說其實你是贊成增加假日啊"},{"start":236.852,"end":262.267,"text":"只是說你覺得要放哪一天假可以再需要凝聚共事嗎是這個意思嗎我可不可以用這樣的方式再跟委員解釋一下譬如說外面很多人會覺得說勞動日勞動節要放假但是我們的立場五一勞動節的勞動者本來就放假是沒有勞動者的軍公教要放假也是全國要一起放假所以"},{"start":262.927,"end":279.722,"text":"重點是在於說我們全國要一致放假的話就是全國要有共識我們所謂的共識不是百分之百喔全國要有共識要增加假日那既然全國要有共識要增加假日要增加在哪一天我們就有26個版本的33種不同的假日"},{"start":280.862,"end":302.33,"text":"對 所以我剛剛在問嘛因為你一定要慢慢收斂問題嘛不然這兩個問題全部都揪在一起了對 因為我剛剛在問說某一個節該不該放的時候你只是提到說沒有共識你好像講到說你也願意增加假日但是呢問到說你知不支持增加假日你又說呢可是要放哪一天呢我們不知道所以我現在就是要我們要收斂問題嘛就是說"},{"start":303.61,"end":321.408,"text":"是不是說其實你也認為說多放幾天假是符合世界潮流只是說現在到底要放哪一天需要社會共識是這個意思嗎還是說你覺得其實以現在的勞工的條件或者是台灣人工時其實沒有增加假期也沒有關係因為沒有影響到他們權益"},{"start":322.785,"end":335.469,"text":"沒有 勞動的部分我不幫勞動部回應我想勞動部他們本來就應該增加勞工的權益 但是我們現在講的是全國放假日我沒有閃因為我跟你講我們去別的部會問 大家都說這個要問是內政部管然後我們來內政委員會問內政部 內政部又說是人事行政層主要是負責社會問題 所以我們只有接下去"},{"start":346.807,"end":370.236,"text":"對啊 可是問題是你的回答我剛剛講過這個是講全國放假日的問題那既然是全國放假日的問題你特別選擇某一種職業身份的話就不適合嗎比較奇怪所以意思是說現在如果說我們立法院的委員大家都可以有共識說挑到一個節日大家都沒問題那內政部也願意支持嘛是這個意思嗎"},{"start":370.936,"end":377.056,"text":"立法院都已經做成決議內政部怎麼敢反對很多立法院決議內政部都反對啊"},{"start":378.608,"end":403.836,"text":"而且很多立法委員提的版本那時候大家都要等院版啦其實大家都是希望說什麼政策是行政機關跟立法院都一致討論過通過啦我現在只問你的意見嘛所以我今天對很多委員都提到說第一個不希望它是政黨之間的爭議而是大家可以坐下來談我們要不要增加這個全國放假日那如果大家都有這樣子的共識"},{"start":405.336,"end":433.963,"text":"不是不要一直講我沒意見我們本來就要尊重如果大家都有這樣共識的話我相信行政院的很多其他的部會因為你不能只有講一個部會負責所有的事情都會按照這樣的方向因為我的瞭解是人事行政總書在每一次做相關決定的時候他都會發回去詢問各部會嘛那有的部會就會表達支持或不支持嘛舉例來講好了像去年上個會期我質詢那時候還沒有還不是新政府的時候潘文忠部長前教育部長潘文忠"},{"start":434.463,"end":453.954,"text":"我問他支不支持勞動節放假因為那時候我們是討論到有的代理老師他雖然是保勞保但是他不適用勞基法所以勞動節他們就變成不放假學校公益有可能適用勞基法放假我就問他說怎麼去解決這個問題他就說人事行政總署已經在調查說支不支持勞動節全國都放假教育部就是支持的"},{"start":454.534,"end":471.495,"text":"所以其實有擔當的首長本來就可以表達你對於這個價值不支持因為你們內部你也是其中一個內閣的閣員嘛你本來就可以有你的態度再來你內政部的立場所以不是說好像我們問你的立場你就是說啊這個就立法院決定我們就OK或者是"},{"start":471.955,"end":484.079,"text":"我怎樣怎樣怎樣其實這個並沒有回答到問題我不是這個意思我的意思是說站在行政跟立法互相尊重的狀況之下我們沒有個人的立場我們會表達機關的立場機關的立場就是全國放假日要能夠出來一個版本"},{"start":489.68,"end":514.548,"text":"而不是針對某一些特定的族群跟身份您剛所提到教師節要不要放假我也提到了我聽到的部分就是說如果教師節要全國一致放假的話首先衝擊到的就是偏鄉教師的這個我剛剛我了解你的意思我只是問說你支持不支持多放假我現在沒講什麼節日嘛我現在說是不是只要大家能夠討論出一個節日出來你也是支持的我現在問題其實是這個"},{"start":516.986,"end":521.897,"text":"你聽得懂我意思嗎還是你不能回答尊重委員好謝謝好謝謝葉元之委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1272,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（13時28分）麻煩請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：部長，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長好。我們今天要討論關於放假的問題嘛！放假的問題有幾個層次啦！第一個層次是到底要不要、應不應該放？第二個是如果要的話，放幾天？第三個是如果可以放的話，放什麼假？我想問一下部長，你現在的態度是什麼？是都不能放，還是……"],["劉部長世芳：我想我上次在立法院院會陪同院長的時候特別提到，我們是希望維持現狀，也就是按照現在的實施辦法處理，因為我們詢問過法務部，法務部認為我們並沒有侵犯到人民、限制他的權利。"],["葉委員元之：當然……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有侵犯、限制到他的權利事項……"],["葉委員元之：對啦……"],["劉部長世芳：所以按照現在的辦法、按照行政命令來講是可以的。但是公部門一年的放假日是由行政院的人事行政總處辦理，他們是依照公務員服務法的相關規定公布的。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝部長。我覺得不管是不是人事行政總處的問題，內政部也應該有個態度啦！我前幾天在教育及文化委員會有質詢教育部，那時候我問他們支不支持教師節放假。針對教師節放假這個議題，前幾個禮拜有一個教團來立法院開記者會，當時藍、綠、白很多位立委都出席，一致支持啦！支持的原因，一方面當然是大家覺得臺灣應該也是可以多放幾天假，第二個是可以選定教師節為目標，為什麼？因為尊師重道嘛！讓老師們在這一天放假，全國也都可以因為這樣放假。而我問了教育部，教育部一開始也是推給內政部，他說這是內政部決定的。後來我問教育部，不管是不是內政部決定，教育部的態度是什麼？如果人事行政總處詢問大家教師節該不該放假，那教育部支持嗎？後來教育部說他支持啦！所以我現在也是問內政部、您的態度啦！如果是人事行政總處向您這邊詢問，假設現在要增加幾天假或是把假給法制化的話，不知道部長您的態度是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：有關法制化的問題，我剛剛已經回答過葉委員，希望維持現狀、是個實施辦法，因為我們認為比較有彈性。"],["葉委員元之：增加放假？"],["劉部長世芳：哪一個？教師節先講還是增加放假？"],["葉委員元之：先講教師節。"],["劉部長世芳：好。有關教師節的部分，我今天跟很多委員特別提到，我們認為根據身分別來做紀念活動本來就有，譬如說有的是婦女、有的是青年、有的是兒童、有的是勞動者，但如果單單提出教師節除了慶祝以外還要放假，那就會牽涉到每個委員有不同版本。"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["劉部長世芳：有的委員沒有放進去，有的委員放進去。"],["葉委員元之：所以要討論嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：委員提出26個版本，有33天需要放假，這就變成社會上的共識是不太足的，而我們希望社會上共識足會比較好，這是第二個。","第三個，有關放假日要不要增加，我們已經跟各位回答過，就是我們的放假日再加上周休二日，到目前為止，大概一般人是115天，勞工的話是116天，如果要增加1天、增加2天、增加3天，甚至有人要求增加到7天或9天，請問要增加在哪裡？我們的立場是不要用身分別，譬如……"],["葉委員元之：好，部長，那我可以這樣解讀嗎？就是你其實贊成增加假日啊！只是你覺得要放哪一天假可以需要凝聚共識，是這個意思嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：我想……"],["葉委員元之：你剛剛是這個意思嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：我可不可以用這樣的方式再跟委員解釋一下？譬如說外面很多人覺得勞動日……"],["葉委員元之：勞動節。"],["劉部長世芳：五一勞動節要放假，但是以我們的立場，五一勞動節勞動者本來就放假，是非勞動者的軍公教要放假，也是全國要一起放假，所以重點在於若全國要一致放假的話，就是全國要有共識。我所謂的共識不是百分之百喔！而是全國有共識要增加假日。既然全國有共識要增加假日，但要增加在哪一天就有26個版本、33種不同假日。"],["葉委員元之：對，所以我剛剛在問嘛！因為一定要慢慢收斂問題，不然這兩個問題就全部都糾在一起了。我剛剛問某一個節該不該放的時候，您提到沒有共識，好像還講到您也願意增加假日。但是問到你支不支持增加假日，你又說可是要放哪一天呢？我們不知道。所以我們要收斂問題嘛！是不是其實你也認為多放幾天假符合世界潮流，現在只是到底要放哪一天需要社會共識，是這個意思嗎？還是你覺得以現在勞工的條件或是臺灣人的工時，其實沒有增加假期也沒有關係，因為沒有影響到他們的權益？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，勞動的部分，我不幫勞動部回應，我想勞動部本來就應該增加勞工權益。我現在講的是全國放假日……"],["葉委員元之：部長一直閃來閃去，這樣大家很難知道內政部……"],["劉部長世芳：我沒有閃。"],["葉委員元之：我跟你講，我們去別的部會問，大家都說這個是內政部管，然後我們來內政委員會問內政部，內政部又說是人事行政總處……"],["劉部長世芳：因為內政部比較「巴結」，需要回答所有問題，所以我們只好接下來。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！問題是你的回答通常只是在閃而已啊！"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛講過，這是講全國放假日的問題，既然是全國放假日的問題，特別選擇某一種職業、身分的話……"],["葉委員元之：你覺得不適合嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：比較奇怪，也不是說不適合。"],["葉委員元之：所以意思是如果我們立法院的委員大家都可以有共識，挑到一個節日大家都沒問題，那內政部也願意支持，是這個意思嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：立法院都已經做成決議，內政部怎麼敢反對？"],["葉委員元之：沒有、沒有，很多立法院的決議內政部都反對啦！"],["劉部長世芳：不能這樣講喔！"],["葉委員元之：而且很多立法委員提了版本，但那時候大家還是都要等院版嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：應該是說立法院要三讀通過。"],["葉委員元之：其實大家都希望政策是行政機關跟立法院一致討論過、通過啦！我現在只是問你的意見嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是，所以我今天對很多委員都提到，第一個，不希望它是政黨之間的爭議，而是大家可以坐下來談我們要不要增加全國放假日。如果大家都有這樣的共識……"],["葉委員元之：所以你都沒意見就對了？"],["劉部長世芳：不是，不要一直講我沒意見，我們本來就要尊重，如果大家都有共識的話，我相信行政院很多其他部會……因為你不能講只有一個部會負責所有事情，但都會按照這樣的方向……"],["葉委員元之：我的了解是人事行政總處在每一次做相關決定的時候，都會發文詢問各部會，有的部會就會表達支持或不支持嘛！舉例來講，去年、上個會期我質詢時、還不是新政府的時候，面對前教育部長潘文忠，我問他支不支持勞動節放假，因為那時候我們討論到有的代理老師雖然保勞保，但不適用勞基法，所以他們變成勞動節不放假，學校工友則可能適用勞基法放假。我問他怎麼解決這個問題，他就說人事行政總處已經在調查支不支持勞動節全國都放假，教育部就是支持的。所以其實有擔當的首長本來就可以表達你對於這個假支不支持，因為在你們內部，你也是其中一個內閣閣員嘛！本來就可以有你的態度、站在你內政部的立場。所以不是像在我們問你的立場時，你就說「立法院決定，我們就OK」，或者怎樣怎樣，其實這樣並沒有回答到問題啦！"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我不是這個意思，我的意思是在行政跟立法互相尊重的狀況之下，我們沒有個人的立場……"],["葉委員元之：內政部的立場啦！"],["劉部長世芳：我們會表達機關的立場。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！機關的立場，我現在問你的就是機關的立場啊！"],["劉部長世芳：機關的立場就是全國放假日要能出來一個版本，而不是針對某一些特定族群跟身分。對於您剛剛所提到的教師節要不要放假，我也提到了，以我聽到的部分，就是如果教師節要全國一致放假的話，首先衝擊到的就是偏鄉教師的授課……"],["葉委員元之：這個我剛剛……我已經了解你的意思，我只是問你支不支持多放假。我現在沒講什麼節日嘛！而是說是不是只要大家能夠討論一個節日出來，你也是支持的？我現在的問題其實是這個，你聽得懂我的意思？還是你不能回答？"],["劉部長世芳：尊重委員。"],["葉委員元之：尊重委員？好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢。","最後請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159294","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159294","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb7819cd10561691c1100c4df18311f68d585e58b3f30dad42da277b577d0128215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"13:16:37 - 13:27:59","影片長度":"00:11:22","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T13:16:37+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T13:27:59+08:00","duration":682,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.684093750000001,"end":12.636593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.20221875,"end":11.691593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.665968750000001,"end":17.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.10846875,"end":19.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.63971875,"end":74.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.15409375,"end":151.63596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.68659375000001,"end":164.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.59596875,"end":177.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.50096875,"end":257.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.65659375,"end":182.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.89721875,"end":208.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.38409375,"end":224.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.81346875,"end":265.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.47471875,"end":266.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.22971875,"end":277.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.54034375000003,"end":287.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.44159375000004,"end":328.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.79096875,"end":294.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.21596875,"end":400.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.54221875,"end":404.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.80346875000004,"end":404.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.89596875,"end":415.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.31221875,"end":416.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.88159375000004,"end":418.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.68721875,"end":422.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.07909375,"end":434.59596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.22596875000005,"end":426.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.39034375,"end":427.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.62971875000005,"end":436.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.58721875000003,"end":446.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.03846875000005,"end":439.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.14784375000005,"end":442.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.18534375,"end":443.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.64471875000004,"end":451.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.94346875,"end":458.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.22096875000005,"end":461.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.17409375000005,"end":466.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.39284375000005,"end":468.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.22784375000003,"end":518.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.8190937500001,"end":538.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.1047187500001,"end":528.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.1922187499999,"end":534.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.7065937500001,"end":540.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.54159375,"end":550.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.27409375,"end":565.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.59659375,"end":568.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.1953437500001,"end":586.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.14784375,"end":575.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.43471875,"end":575.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.42034375,"end":594.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.5078437500001,"end":599.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.8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我們現在啦我們現在就是說這一個包含這個紀念日還有這個節日 放假日總共有11天然後包含這個朱修日那全年的總放假日大概是115到116日啦這是目前的這個情況"},{"start":57.965,"end":74.268,"text":"我早上也聽了這個部長這個的回答就是認為說目前的這個紀念日還有節日實施辦法這個比較具有彈性那因為也各個委員的版本差異性也很大所以是不是維持現狀會比較好一點點"},{"start":76.249,"end":104.197,"text":"是謝謝委員的指教我們內政部大概跟相關的單位討論過會認為說維持現在的實施辦法呢會比較好就它比較有彈性所謂的比較有彈性譬如說我們上一次啊103年修法的時候呢是把原住民的稅時記憶放到這個稅時記憶日裡面變成是可以放假等等這一些那如果未來我們把它法律化法制化的話你每一年都要再重新修正說我今年要放什麼假"},{"start":104.897,"end":127.87,"text":"除非說我們就是以前的原例辦理那這樣子的話呢在彈性上面就法律上來講彈性會比較少那維持現在的實施辦法當然我也提到說那你們違反行政命令上面的部分其實我們在91年的時候也問過法務部法務部是所有的法律的這個解釋機關他有提到說我們這樣子的一個節日的管理辦法"},{"start":128.59,"end":151.088,"text":"其實並沒有限縮到人民的自由跟限縮他們的權利所以維持現在的辦法是可以接受的那如果你要變成立法的時候呢就是變成是由立法院三讀通過了法律案的話就會碰到我們剛剛在行政部門裡面所碰觸到的問題那如果沒有辦法解決這種彈性的部分的話呢這個立法會變成是一個空白的授權"},{"start":151.849,"end":177.411,"text":"譬如說國定紀念日放假然後國際上的譬如說國際勞動節或是國際婦女節放假等等這些你全部把它爐裂下來那一年到底放假幾天沒有人可以講得清楚那部長就是說你剛才講的就是說比較有彈性然後我看每個委員他版本差異性也很大那我講一個可能會比較具有共識的一個提案你來聽看看就是說春節"},{"start":179.247,"end":203.861,"text":"我們現在除限是放假一天然後春節是放假三天如果遇到例假日就還補假所以至少有六天是屬於連續假期我們通常為了方便大家提早回家所以有可能在小年夜的時候我們就會彈性的補假可是小年夜彈性補假的時候就有可能要在"},{"start":204.641,"end":226.011,"text":"下一個工作的這個禮拜六吧就要補班了我舉這個我們今年的我們今年休了九天休了九天其中那個1月27號它就是屬於小年夜彈性放假然後呢那我們就在這個2月8號的時候呢我們就補班那但是就是有九天就是有九天那我在想說那我就舉這個明年2026年的例子那明年2026年呢這個在2月20號那一天呢"},{"start":232.834,"end":254.67,"text":"就是說理論上有可能也會讓他變成一個彈性放假然後接下來再找一天來補班那這樣子一樣會有九天的一個連續的假期那我就想說因為春節畢竟是我們台灣人就是回家比較長的一個節日那如果說現在我們大概已經固定是放四天加上遇到這個"},{"start":255.95,"end":284.199,"text":"如果假日的話就補假大概有六天的時間那有沒有辦法譬如說像這個彈性補假那一天不論是小年夜或是說像卡在中間的這一天可不可以就是把它當成是連續假期的一天然後不要再來補班有沒有辦法就是把我們這個春節的這個這個假期把它固定不論是七天或是九天把它固定然後讓大家也能夠提早去安排這個有關這個春節的這個行程然後接下來那一天"},{"start":285.72,"end":312.513,"text":"這個補班的那一天能不能就是不要補班了那個委員非常有創意而且我覺得可能符合大眾上的想法就是我能不能休長一點然後不要只有中間譬如星期三放假然後一二要來上班然後四五又要上班那如果像農曆春節這個是亞洲人常常有的這個長時間的放假那一次放假十天到底好與不好或是一次放假八天或九天到底好與不好這是可以討論的空間"},{"start":313.573,"end":326.577,"text":"也就是說很多人不管你是因為親子活動要安排長時間到國外旅遊等等我們是有一個期待值這個期待值要放在哪裡就會變成說到底我們那一年要多放假幾天補班日不要來"},{"start":329.758,"end":346.799,"text":"然後預備放假日可以先放假那總共到底是幾天現在不管是春節也好或者是清明節或者是端午節或者是中秋節或者是大家在在乎的五一勞動節它是不是可以變成是大家可以期待的一個放假"},{"start":347.279,"end":366.884,"text":"那這樣子可能很多人會覺得我可以趕快來安排我要去哪裡旅遊或是有什麼親子活動這是一個那第二個我們就要來解決不是法律上的問題在解決說勞動關係上面這樣好與不好現在因為長假的關係然後也有一部分人是因為長假反而增加他的工時"},{"start":367.964,"end":381.794,"text":"跟增加勞僱者自己本身的一個工作量我們有沒有其他的方案來幫他解決因為我們講究平衡跟平等那這個就是屬於目的事業主管機關包括交通部包括勞動部包括經濟部他們要去處理的這個狀況如果他們也認為說這個是一個好的對於大家來講是一個好的方向"},{"start":390.62,"end":413.213,"text":"那這樣的方向覺得可行那我覺得站在行政部門的立場上面我們沒有什麼好說去從頭到尾都反對要維持什麼什麼沒有那麼死沒有那麼死硬所以我們是保持開放的因為現在春節至少會放到六天以上那我剛才講的只是說本來要補班的那一天你把它變成就是說把它變成是春假的"},{"start":413.733,"end":422.543,"text":"但是你要放在星期一還是放在星期五大家就會很爭論到明年的春節還有很長的時間可以去討論一下把春假的時間固定化大家比較好容易去安排春節的一個時間"},{"start":434.676,"end":460.675,"text":"春節沒辦法固定 春節是農曆沒有沒有 就是時間啦時間 當然因為農曆嘛那我意思是說 放假的時間啦不是說它固定的時間 這放假的時間 比如說是七天或是九天那因為我們現在 常常是用那個彈性彈性放假 然後再補班 那其實大家比較有抱怨 應該就是補班那一天啦那我是覺得說 如果能夠讓它這個固定的這個放假天數能夠確定那其實對於大家的安排 春假這一個"},{"start":461.455,"end":484.641,"text":"春節這個假期比較容易去安排啦好不好你們這個可以去考慮一下我們保持開放然後聽聽各界的想法主席我暫有一點時間就是說現在這個一些網紅因為違反到相關的規定我們就要把他這個遣返回去不過我有看到有一篇報導我要確認一下說移民署到底有沒有說過類似的話"},{"start":486.081,"end":506.561,"text":"他說這個雅雅她在3月15號她說原本移民署說出於人道主義要她收到這個廢紙拘留證的公文之後呢可以去申請團聚就不必呢立即離境能夠在台灣呢停留6個月陪孩子那後來是因為有人說如果移民署這樣子做的話沒有在10天之內把她這個驅逐出境的話那是違反這個相關規定的要告她獨子"},{"start":510.225,"end":516.879,"text":"然後呢3月16號我們的這個移民署的副署長才說要執行強制的促進那我想請問一下我們移民署有這樣子跟瑤瑤這樣子講嗎"},{"start":519.354,"end":538.841,"text":"我想有兩個層次跟委員回覆一下第一個這位中配他其實沒有拿到台灣的身份證所以他只是依親居留我們是依法取消他的依親居留我想他在網路上面已經講到要武力捅武捅台灣等等這些事情出犯然後再來檢舉呢不會是只有一個人的檢舉"},{"start":543.783,"end":567.78,"text":"所以網紅上面所講的部分我們就是可以說當成參考但是不是定案然後再來有關於依親拘留有包括說申請團聚等等這些本來在我們移民署的依親拘留規定就有提到但是我們真正給他的處分書裡面並不是3月16日而是3月15日也就是要求他要限期離境那所以他限制離境的地位是在哪個時候"},{"start":568.463,"end":585.84,"text":"我想容許我們有一點空間第一個就是說他收到這個處分書的時候要按照我們的行政程序非常嚴謹那他收到處分書之後呢理論上他是要十天內離境那我們會讓他有這個空間但是哪一天我想我們還是保持讓他可以有安全離境的空間"},{"start":587.101,"end":610.694,"text":"所以呢這個執行強制出境然後按照規定是10天這個是我們的規定嗎移民署在處理有關於這個限期離境時候的相關規定那算了一下應該是24號之前我想我還是不對外講我的意思就是說有點像是譬如說郵局給你雙掛號那放在你家的樓下你沒有接到你第二天才接到那我們就要從第二天"},{"start":610.954,"end":625.896,"text":"第三天開始算起這會有一點上下的時間點那部長要請移民署要去注意一下那個時間那也不要讓這個還有其他的這些網紅就想說我是不是還有什麼其他的一些法律上的漏洞可以繼續留在台灣"},{"start":626.457,"end":649.302,"text":"我們目前法律上並沒有漏洞第一個我們所依據的是我們的兩岸人民關係條例然後還有入出境管理跟移民法所以我們依據這兩個法律所制定下來的這個行政的規範到目前為止也沒有改變過那事實上在過去好長一段時間裡面外國國籍如果觸犯到台灣法律者我們就是按照相關的規定辦理"},{"start":650.162,"end":677.668,"text":"那除了這個劉鎮雅之外還有你們也約談了其他的這些網紅他們的言論也涉及到有武統的那請問一下那後續的處理的情況是怎麼樣也是一樣現在所這個就是說有其他的管道不管是我們自己從網路上看到或是有人檢舉過來的話我們就按照規定來約談那有沒有像他這樣子還要這個後續會執行這個強制出境的有但是時間上容許我們有點保留因為這是行政程序處理的範圍"},{"start":678.288,"end":679.995,"text":"OK好那我先問到這邊好謝謝主席謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1213,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（13時16分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：部長，有請。"],["李委員坤城：部長也辛苦了，到現在都還沒有用餐嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們沒有準備便當，因為業務費被刪掉。"],["李委員坤城：喔！因為你沒有預算了喔！辛苦了。","那我請教一下部長。今天的主題就是在講是不是要把紀念日及節日實施辦法法制化，我看各個委員所提出來的版本，哇！差異性也相當地大，紀念日就有33種，節日也有多達38種。我們現在包含紀念日還有節日的放假日總共有11天，然後包含週休二日，全年總放假日大概是115到116日，這是目前的情況。我早上也聽了部長的回答，就是認為目前的紀念日及節日實施辦法比較具有彈性，也因為各個委員版本的差異性很大，所以是不是維持現狀會比較好一點點？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的指教。我們內政部大概跟相關單位討論過，認為維持現在的實施辦法會比較好，就是比較有彈性。所謂比較有彈性，譬如說我們上一次103年修法的時候，是把原住民的歲時祭儀放到歲時祭儀日裡面，變成可以放假，包含這些等等。如果未來法律化、法制化的話，每一年都要重新修正今年要放什麼假，除非就是援以前的例辦理，但這樣的話就法律上來講，彈性會比較少。","對於維持現在的實施辦法，當然有委員提到違反行政命令的部分，其實我們在91年的時候也問過法務部。法務部是所有法律的解釋機關，而它提到這樣的節日管理辦法其實並沒有限縮到人民的自由跟權利，所以維持現在的辦法是可以接受的。如果要立法，也就是變成由立法院三讀通過的法律案，就會碰到我們剛剛在行政部門裡面所碰觸到的問題，如果沒有辦法解決這種彈性的問題，這個立法會變成空白的授權。譬如說國定紀念日放假，然後譬如說國際勞動節或國際婦女節放假等等，全部臚列下來，那一年到底放假幾天？沒有人可以講得清楚。"],["李委員坤城：OK，好，部長，你剛剛講的就是比較有彈性啦！","然後，我看每個委員的版本差異性也很大，那我講一個可能會比較具有共識的提案，你來聽看看，就是春節。春節現在是除夕放假1天嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["李委員坤城：然後春節是放假3天，如果遇到例假日還會補假，所以至少有6天屬於連續假期。而通常為了方便大家提早回家，有可能在小年夜的時候就會彈性補假。可是小年夜彈性補假的時候，就可能要在下一個工作的禮拜六吧……"],["劉部長世芳：補班。"],["李委員坤城：就要補班啦！"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["李委員坤城：我舉今年為例啦！我們今年休了9天，其中1月27號就屬於小年夜彈性放假，那我們就在2月8號的時候補班，但假就是有9天。我再舉明（2026）年的例子啦！明（2026）年，在2月20號那一天，理論上有可能也會讓它變成彈性放假，然後接下來再找一天補班，這樣一樣會有9天連續假期。我想春節畢竟是我們臺灣人回家、比較長的節日啦！現在已經固定放4天，加上如果遇到假日就補假，大概有6天時間。那有沒有辦法針對彈性補假那天，不論是小年夜或像是卡在中間的這一天，可不可以當成連續假期的一天，然後不要再補班？有沒有辦法把春節假期固定？不論是7天或9天，把它固定，然後讓大家也能提早安排春節的有關行程？接下來，補班的那一天能不能就不要補班？"],["劉部長世芳：委員非常有創意，而且我覺得可能符合大眾的想法，就是能不能休長一點，然後不要只有中間──譬如說星期三放假，星期一、二要來上班，星期四、五又要上班。如果像農曆春節，這是亞洲人常常有的長時間放假，一次放假10天到底好與不好，或是一次放假8天或9天到底好與不好，這是可以討論的空間。也就是說有很多人不管是因為親子活動要安排長時間到國外旅遊等等，是有一個期待值，這個期待值要放在哪裡，問題就會變成到底那一年要多放假幾天、補班日不要來、預備放假日可以先放假，那總共到底是幾天？不管是春節也好，或者是清明節、端午節、中秋節，或者是大家在乎的五一勞動節，是不是會變成大家可以期待的放假？這樣可能很多人會覺得可以趕快安排，包括要去哪裡旅遊，或是有什麼親子活動，這是一個。","第二個，我們要來解決的，不是法律上的問題，而是在勞動關係上面這樣好與不好。現在因為長假的關係，也有一部分人反而因為長假增加他的工時跟增加勞雇者本身的工作量，我們有沒有其他方案幫他解決？因為我們講究平衡跟平等，這就屬於目的事業主管機關──包括交通部、勞動部、經濟部他們要處理的狀況。如果他們也認為這是好的，對於大家來講是好的方向，也覺得這樣的方向可行，那我覺得站在行政部門的立場上，我們沒有什麼好從頭到尾都反對、要維持什麼什麼的，沒有那麼死嘛！沒有那麼死硬，所以我們是保持開放的。"],["李委員坤城：因為現在春節至少會放到6天以上，而我剛才講的只是本來要補班的那一天就把它變成整個春假的一部分……"],["劉部長世芳：一天？那就不要補班？"],["李委員坤城：對，因為其實大家會……"],["劉部長世芳：但是要放在星期一還是星期五，大家就會很爭論。"],["李委員坤城：對啦！對啦！其實現在到明年春節還有很長的時間，你們可以討論一下。我認為把春節的時間固定化，大家比較好安排春節的時間啦！"],["劉部長世芳：春節沒辦法固定，春節是農曆。"],["李委員坤城：沒有，就是說時間啦！"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["李委員坤城：當然，因為是農曆嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：對，要跟著農曆的一年計算。"],["李委員坤城：對，我是說放假的時間啦！不是說固定的時間，而是放假的時間，比如說7天或9天。因為我們現在常常是用彈性放假再補班，其實大家比較有抱怨的應該就是補班那一天啦！我覺得如果能夠固定，放假天數能夠確定，其實對於大家安排春節這個假期來說比較容易啦！好不好？你們可以考慮一下。"],["劉部長世芳：我們保持開放，然後聽聽各界的想法。"],["李委員坤城：好。","主席，我占用一點時間。現在有一些網紅因為違反相關規定，我們就要把他遣返回去，不過我有看到一篇報導，要確認一下移民署到底有沒有說過類似的話。這位亞亞在3月15號說，原本移民署說出於人道主義，讓他在收到廢止居留證公文之後可以申請團聚，就不必立即離境，能夠在臺灣停留6個月陪孩子。後來是因為有人說如果移民署這樣做，沒有在時間之內把他驅逐出境的話，是違反相關規定的，要告他瀆職，3月16號移民署副署長才說要執行強制出境。那我想請問一下，移民署有跟亞亞這樣講嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我想有兩個層次跟委員回復一下。第一個，這一位中配其實沒有拿到臺灣的身分證……"],["李委員坤城：他是拿居留證。"],["劉部長世芳：所以他只是依親居留。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["劉部長世芳：我們是依法取消他的依親居留。他在網路上已經講到要武統臺灣這些言論，已經觸犯……"],["李委員坤城：對，我支持的就是這樣的言論不見容於臺灣。"],["劉部長世芳：再來，檢舉不會是只有一個人的檢舉，對於網紅在網上所講的，我們可以當成參考，但不是定案。","再來，依親居留包括申請團聚等等，這些在我們移民署的依親居留規定本來就有提到，但是我們真正給他的處分書裡面並不是3月16日，而是3月15日，也就是要求他限期離境。"],["李委員坤城：所以他限期離境的deadline是在哪個時候？"],["劉部長世芳：我想容許我們有一點空間。第一，他收到處分書的時候要按照我們的行政程序，非常嚴謹。他收到處分書之後，理論上是要在10天內離境，我們會讓他有這個空間，但是哪一天，我想我們還是保持讓他可以安全離境的空間。"],["李委員坤城：執行強制出境按照規定是10天，這是我們的規定嘛！對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：移民署在處理限期離境時的相關規定。"],["李委員坤城：算了一下，應該是24號之前啦！"],["劉部長世芳：我想我還是不對外講，我的意思就是說，有點像郵局給你雙掛號，放在你家樓下，你沒有接到，而是第二天才接到，那我們就要從第三天開始算起，這裡會有一些上下的時間點。"],["李委員坤城：好，那部長要請移民署注意一下那個時間，也不要讓其他網紅去想是不是還有什麼其他法律漏洞，可以繼續留在臺灣。"],["劉部長世芳：我們目前的法律上並沒有漏洞。第一，我們所依據的是兩岸人民關係條例，然後還有入出境管理跟移民法，我們依據這兩個法律所制訂下來的行政規範，到目前為止也沒有改變過。事實上，在過去好長一段時間裡面，外國籍人士如果觸犯到臺灣法律者，我們都是按照相關規定辦理。"],["李委員坤城：好。除了這個劉振亞之外，你們還約談了其他網紅，他們的言論也涉及武統，請問一下，後續的處理情況怎麼樣？"],["劉部長世芳：也是一樣，現在對於其他管道，不管是我們自己從網路上看到或是有人檢舉，我們就按照規定約談。"],["李委員坤城：那還有沒有像他這樣，後續會執行強制出境的？"],["劉部長世芳：有。"],["李委員坤城：有？那……"],["劉部長世芳：但是時間上容許我們有點保留，因為這是行政程序處理的範圍。"],["李委員坤城：OK，那我先問到這邊。謝謝主席、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。","下一位請黃健豪委員質詢。黃健豪委員、黃健豪委員不在。","下一位請賴士葆委員質詢。賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員不在。","下一位請林俊憲委員質詢。林俊憲委員、林俊憲委員不在。","下一位請林倩綺委員質詢。林倩綺委員、林倩綺委員不在。","下一位請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159293","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159293","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbdccab50f0a3db32c100c4df18311f68d585e58b3f30dad42e8ce97be1a103f415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"13:10:30 - 13:16:23","影片長度":"00:05:53","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T13:10:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T13:16:23+08:00","duration":353,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.0553437500000005,"end":7.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.69221875,"end":8.282843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.180343750000002,"end":59.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.72284375,"end":55.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.51159375,"end":57.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.979093750000004,"end":116.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.24471875,"end":152.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.73284375,"end":183.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.81659375,"end":191.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.93346875,"end":208.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.53846875000002,"end":209.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.71971875000003,"end":277.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.87784375,"end":280.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.50596875,"end":284.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.08346875,"end":328.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.54971875,"end":299.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.40159375,"end":331.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.47284375000004,"end":333.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.71721875000003,"end":348.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.62846875,"end":335.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.60096875000005,"end":351.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.30096875000004,"end":352.43159375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.072,"end":6.758,"text":"好 謝謝 我請部長部長有請"},{"start":17.44,"end":36.466,"text":"謝謝部長你辛苦了因為今天這個議題其實我最近在地方上溝通其實好多人都很關心所以今天我要就兩個層面來去討論這個議題一個是立法的必要性跟放假的必要性我們現在規範節日的放假是透過紀念日跟節日的實施法來去做規範"},{"start":37.826,"end":59.303,"text":"規範的範圍其實非常的廣也影響了民眾的權益那我們現在用職權命令決定放假對不對我講這句話對不對就你們現在內政部是用職權命令來決定放假我們只是提供實施辦法但是決定放假是有行政院人士行政總署在沒念力的你後面有沒有法源依據我知道你後面有沒有法源依據"},{"start":62.228,"end":75.681,"text":"過去曾經我們希望透過職權命令相關規範來去做討論但是很多學者其實有質疑後來我們希望修法但事實上是沒有通過的就是說我們並不適合擴張職權命令的範圍跟效力"},{"start":78.644,"end":103.45,"text":"所以我過去我們應該我們應該再次來檢討加速檢討職權命令的妥適性我今天部長我還沒有要跟你討論說我們哪天放假哪天不要放假我現在是從法源的依據來跟部長您做討論就是說我們來決定這件事情內政部是不是有足夠的權力我們的職權命令到底背後有沒有有沒有法源依據不論接下來我們決定"},{"start":104.13,"end":118.86,"text":"都不放假維持現狀還是說我們要放一天兩天三天這是另外一個議題但是我們自己的職權命令背後我們法院的基礎我們站的到底夠不夠穩這個是我今天主要要跟"},{"start":119.58,"end":135.825,"text":"部長討論就是說你同不同意就是說在機關在如果具有專業性具有時效性在這個功能在機關的功能的理論當中其實行政機關的權限相對是重要的"},{"start":136.485,"end":165.407,"text":"但是屬於放假我講像像放假這些譬如說教師姐要不要放假啦譬如說行縣要不要放假啦我們中秋節現在有放這個是屬於比較多元性的那也有一點價值的一些想法在裡頭所以這些事情應該在我看來應該屬於比較多是立法機關的權限就是說我們到底教師姐要不要放假我們中秋節現在有放我們端午節要不要放假"},{"start":166.347,"end":175.797,"text":"這幾件事情它是屬於比較多元的在我看來我覺得應該有更多民意的討論應該有更多民意的背景來去支撐我們所以我才會覺得說這件事情應該要有更多廣泛的民意基礎所以"},{"start":184.905,"end":208.766,"text":"內政部在決定這件事情的時候過去在決定這件事情的時候我覺得我們的職權命令變成是擴權或者我應該是說我們法院的背景其實我們的利潤點是不足的這個是我今天我要跟部長您探討第一個問題就即便我們後面要怎麼做都不放放一天放兩天放三天放七天我覺得"},{"start":209.787,"end":228.756,"text":"只有行政機關來做這件事情我們法院依據是不足的這是第一點我要跟您溝通的第二點就是說台灣向來是過勞之島我們在OECD國家今天很多委員都提過了我們的總工時雖然近幾年我們看起來好像有想辦法降工時啦等等但是我們在2020"},{"start":230.918,"end":250.173,"text":"我們在2023年的時候我們的工時其實還比2022年多了15個小時在OECD國家當中其實我們的過勞也排名第五那我們跟鄰近的亞洲國家相比我們的工時僅次於新加坡、日本跟韓國今天早上看到很多委員已經把大表都拉出來各個狀況"},{"start":251.494,"end":276.525,"text":"那臺灣勞工我們雖然你對勞動部也很清楚你過去跟勞工接觸也很多我知道我們的特休假實施使用率是偏低的那我們的特休假用完特休假的比例只有51%那我們去探究為什麼其他49%沒有用掉有一些可能20%他可能想換成抵薪資可以抵扣工資可以拿回一些錢"},{"start":277.915,"end":305.594,"text":"另外30%給放假你為什麼不放他用不到不是他用不到 他根本用不完所以我們希望台灣的勞工有足夠的休息我覺得全國統一的節日放假可以減少衍生很多人想休息也不敢休息無論是老闆的壓力也好但是當全國統一放假的時候比如中秋節大家都放假所以他自然他就休"},{"start":306.374,"end":333.32,"text":"你給他特休有些百分之三十的人他不敢休工作做不完不敢休你一直休你一直休老闆下次可能最早就叫你不要來了這是現在職場的問題我想部長你跟勞工界也這麼熟你跟民間都這麼熟你非常輕你又待公務機關這麼長一段時間工作沒做完誰敢特休敢休完光是你內政部底下有一些人可能特休也沒休完為什麼沒有休不敢休因為事情還沒有完全做完"},{"start":333.9,"end":347.395,"text":"這是有另外一份責任在所以我覺得我今天就兩個問題立法的必要性跟放假的必要性來去凸顯我的問題我也希望內政部要去思考法院的依據還有我們放假必要性應該回歸到立法機關以上 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人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159292","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159292","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbbb343f69cf51d2a1ad7e46c29134393c19c9681c5de83954bbbba23be64eeb1d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"13:30:56 - 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謝謝主席有請部長陳委員好部長好部長我今天關於空評的部分我們就直接切入我關於談兒少的部分那我其實有看到部長在您上任之後在非常多政策的推廣跟宣示上我看到部長想要對兒少關注的決心確實我在你們很多資料裡面都看到那我們現在就來討論一些比較細緻的做法"},{"start":28.903,"end":44.178,"text":"因為我相信對於環境部來說其實兒少的議題絕對相對於過去是陌生的因為他關注的是人他關注的是更多原本你們所不理解的我們來看一下報導者之前有說兒童呼吸權受到空汙的影響我相信相關報導你們應該都看過我就不再贅述我們來往下看"},{"start":48.522,"end":63.441,"text":"那因為我剛剛是因為一直長期關心兒少所以如果來看空污空瓶的議題放在兒少身上其實已經很多學術研究都告訴我們小孩是相對脆弱的族群因為他們的呼吸陽量還有毒物代謝的狀態還有他可能會造成哪些影響好 往下"},{"start":65.043,"end":74.908,"text":"那如果部長您也認同在空污跟空瓶議題把兒少的權利放進環境部未來施政的重點那我想要問部長往下一樣部長你有沒有看過這個兒童權利公約CRC國內法化之後台灣在111年受到國際專家審查當時的國際審查結論性意見裡面給環境部的建議是說請針對整體環境的變遷對兒少健康所帶來的衝擊"},{"start":93.038,"end":122.718,"text":"在2022年的時候提醒環境部要有所回應當然這個回應不是只是書面回應更希望環境部是有積極的作為但是我們看到在2024年的時候環境部給的回應只有說整體空瓶標準會加嚴但是到底對於整體兒少的協助還有整體兒少環境的改善如何真的可以促進我剛剛說實質的改變說實話我們到現在在環境部的報告並沒有看見我個人覺得很可惜我們來往下看"},{"start":124.3,"end":127.423,"text":"那在整理了很多資料之後下一張"},{"start":129.011,"end":155.943,"text":"我們其實跟很多專家學者也討論過我們也看了非常多的資料我想我有七個訴求非常非常的具體但他可能在很多政策上包含還有跟縣市政府的對接跟討論他都需要環境部衛福部教育部未來一起努力合作這邊第一個是空瓶的法規還有兒少法規的對接怎麼說呢目前跟部長說環境部空瓶的法規沒有落實到校園"},{"start":156.983,"end":174.302,"text":"甚至在未服務的兒少法裡面的法規也沒有環境部的角色也就是它確實有跨部會工作的困難部長我們時間有限啦你不用急著看資料因為我發現喔如果要把我們今天講這七個做完絕對不是一天兩天也絕對不是一年兩年"},{"start":175.203,"end":198.172,"text":"他需要日积月累所以我觉得今天我只是想要借由这个议题日后开启跟环境部在儿少空品上的讨论跟实际的推动第二个我们希望可以加强校园空品的法规跟执法目前呢室内空品法要求校园要做空品检测可是在相关执法公布的场所里面却不含校园"},{"start":199.241,"end":207.146,"text":"好再來第三我們希望可以加強有害空氣污染物的檢測跟稽查原本預計要納管72種可是公告的時候只剩22種我們認為應該要滾動檢討相關的加強監測還有稽查第四個我們希望可以加強HPS資訊公開跟易讀性我知道環境部目前有所謂的空品監測年報可是所謂的有害空氣污染物卻沒有相關的報告"},{"start":224.797,"end":249.495,"text":"另外我們雖然有特殊性工業區有監測相關數值但有公開上網可是不易讀也不及時我目前都談到的是跟校園而上有關都還沒有牽扯到其他產業的問題第五個校園跟工業區周遭化射空氣品質維護區這個其實我們應該有能力比較快可以做到第六個我們希望可以針對敏感跟弱勢族群提出有害空污之健康風險評估報告"},{"start":251.016,"end":270.022,"text":"那關於這件事情要如何針對兒少老人慢性病這些脆弱敏感族群目前只有NGO跟很多學者在做我相信環境部應該可以有角色那當然也包含衛福部接下來最後一個環境正義地圖我們希望可以了解多重污染的交織性目前環境部的相關資料是把水"},{"start":271.102,"end":291.031,"text":"還有空氣還有土的污染資料全部都分開那我們認為在多重污染困境的環境的不正義社區的可能性也許在回應到我剛剛說的國際兒童人權專家審查的時候環境部到底對於耳哨的這個部分做了哪些事情我認為最後一個可能也會幫我們環境部加分"},{"start":291.511,"end":314.781,"text":"好 我的這些訴求我剛開始已經說了一點都不容易達到但是我很希望環境部在後續可以有相關的動作跟相關政策推進可不可以請部長回應一下好 謝謝委員提出這麼寶貴的意見這個兒少的問題包含了這個我們過去的確是譬如說在室內空瓶污染的監測或是中小學有一些規範但是事實上委員前面提到的這種所謂的對兒少的國際的公約的部分"},{"start":317.342,"end":342.448,"text":"我會回去再瞭解我們是不是可以有一個更好的一個回應那委員這個七點呢是不是容許我納入我們的空品的白皮書因為我們正在擬定那我們絕對會我承諾會加強這個兒少的保育因為這個是我們的未來我們要投資他們所以這個部分我們會把它納入進來那部長我是不是最後可以拜託由我們辦公室先來主動找你們召開一次會議我們把相關細節來討論之後我們各自努力好嗎好沒問題那我們再找你們開會謝謝主席謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":345.7,"end":346.003,"text":"好 謝謝陳委 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1436,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（13時31分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長好。部長，針對今天的空品議題，我們就直接切入來談兒少的部分。在部長上任之後，在非常多的政策推廣及宣示上，我看到部長想要關注兒少的決心，確實在你們的許多資料也都能看到，現在我們就來討論一些比較細緻的做法。","我相信對環境部而言，兒少議題相對於過去絕對是陌生的，因為它關注的是人、它關注的是更多原本你們不理解的。我們來看一下，之前報導者表示兒童呼吸權受到空污的影響，相信你們應該都看過這個報導，所以我就不再贅述。因為本席辦公室長期關心兒少，如果來看空污、空品放在兒少身上的議題，其實已經有很多學術研究都告訴我們，小孩是相對脆弱的族群，包括他們的呼吸氧量、毒物代謝狀況以及可能會造成哪些影響。","如果部長也認同空污與空品議題把兒少的權利放進環境部未來施政的重點，那麼我想要問部長，是否看過兒童權利公約CRC國內法化之後，臺灣在111年受到國際專家審查，當時的國際審查結論性意見給環境部的建議，請針對整體環境的變遷對於兒少健康所帶來的衝擊，在2022年的時候提醒環境部要有所回應，當然這個回應不只是書面回應，更希望環境部能有積極的作為，但是我們看到在2024年時環境部所給的回應，只表示整體空品標準會加嚴。到底對於整體兒少的協助及整體兒少環境的改善，如何真的可以促進我剛剛所說的實質改變？說實話，直到現在我們在環境部的報告中仍然沒有看見，我個人覺得很可惜。","在整理了很多資料之後，我們其實也與許多專家學者討論過、也看了非常多的資料，我有7個訴求，非常的具體，但它可能在非常多的政策上，包含與縣市政府的對接及討論，其實都需要環境部、衛福部及教育部在未來一起努力合作。","第一個，空品的法規及兒少法規的對接，怎麼說呢？目前環境部空品的法規沒有落實到校園，甚至在衛福部兒少法裡的法規也沒有環境部的角色，也就是它確實有跨部會工作的困難。部長，我們的時間有限，你不用急著看資料，因為我發現如果要把今天說的這七點做完，絕對不是一天、二天，也絕對不是一年、二年，它需要的是日積月累，因此，今天我只是想藉由這個議題，開啟日後與環境部在兒少空品上的討論及實際的推動。","第二個，希望加強校園的空品法規及執法，目前市內空品法要求校園要做空品檢測，但是在相關子法公布的場所中卻不包含校園。","第三個，我們希望可以加強有害空氣污染物的檢測與稽查，原本預計要納管72種，但是公告的時候只剩下22種，我們認為應該要滾動檢討相關的加強監測與稽查。","第四個，我們希望可以加強HAPS的資訊公開及易讀性，我知道環境部目前有所謂的空品監測年報，但是所謂的有害空氣污染物卻沒有相關的報告。另外，我們雖然在特殊性工業區有監測相關數值、也有公開上網，但是不易讀、也不即時。目前談到的都是與校園兒少有關，尚未牽扯到其他產業的問題。","第五個，校園與工業區周遭劃設空氣品質維護區，這個應該是我們具有能力可以比較快做到的。","第六個，我們希望可以針對敏感及弱勢族群，提出有害空污之健康風險評估報告。關於這件事情，如何針對兒少、老人、慢性病等脆弱敏感族群，目前只有NGO與許多學者在做，我相信環境部應該可以有角色，當然也包含衛福部。","最後一個是環境正義地圖，我們希望可以了解多重污染的交織性，目前環境部的相關資料是把水、空氣及土壤的污染資料全部分開，我們認為在多重污染困境的環境不正義社區的可能性，也許再回應到我剛剛說的，國際兒童人權專家審查的時候，環境部到底對兒少的部分做了哪些事情，我認為最後一個可能也會幫環境部加分。","剛剛一開始我已經說了，我的這些訴求一點都不容易達到，但是我很希望環境部在後續可以有相關的動作與相關政策推進，可不可以請部長回應一下？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員提出這麼寶貴的意見。關於兒少的問題，過去我們在室內空品污染的監測或是在中小學有一些規範，但是事實上，委員前面提到關於兒少國際公約的部分，我回去後會再作了解，看看是否能有更好的回應。至於委員提出的七點，是否容許我納入我們正在擬定的空品白皮書？我承諾會加強兒少的保育，因為這是我們的未來，我們必須要投資他們，所以我們會將這個部分納入。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。最後是否可以拜託部長，由我們辦公室主動找你們召開一次會議，討論過相關的細節之後，我們就各自努力，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們再找你們來開會，謝謝主席、謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。","請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請徐富癸委員、徐富癸委員、徐富癸委員不在。","請葉元之委員、葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員黃秀芳及蘇清泉所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員黃秀芳書面質詢：","邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。","（環境部）","台灣近一個月有兩次空品不良事件引發關注。日前，彰化地區因受高壓迴流，環境風場轉為偏東風，且伴隨殘留於海上境外污染物移入，因此成為全台空品最差地區，員林市的AQI更飆升到162，彰化市為156，地方政府因此特別提醒民眾減少戶外劇烈活動，外出可戴口罩做好自身健康防護。","針對空氣品質惡化這個議題，環境部於委員會報告中特別提到除精進現行作為外，將成立「空氣品質監測與預報中心」，以監測數據及強化預報精進空污環境治理。","台灣2、3月北方系統影響逐漸減小，大陸冷高壓南下不若冬季頻繁，使高壓出海至高壓迴流影響時間拉長，致使西半部地區弱風時數增加，導致空氣污染物持續累積造成高濃度；近一個月台灣有兩次空氣品質不良事件，包含2月25日至2月28日、3月10日至3月12日，即是因高壓出海至高壓迴流致污染物累積。","問題一：過去的空氣品質監測地方政府已能做到提醒及預警民眾留意的效果，新成立的空氣品質監測與預報中心所要強化的部分為何？與過去的不同有哪些？對於民眾來說最主要的差別與感受會是那些部分？","環境部指出改善空品要多管齊下，因此環境部曾舉辦公民咖啡館會議徵集建言，並舉辦論壇邀集外國代表、學者分享經驗，除了將成果研擬為「新空品政策白皮書」，也在今年初調整空氣品質（AQI）污染物門檻數值，採取更嚴格標準，提前啟動預警通報。","問題二：對於空氣品質惡化，我們從強化公私協力來著手，是相當好的一個方式，但相關的方式有沒有制式化？怎麼樣讓這些建言與管道作為往後能夠滾動調整相關標準的方式？需要修訂相關辦法來因應嗎？","以日前的空氣品質惡化情況為例，地方政府當下已啟動緊急應變機制，也通知縣內前74大公私場所執行空污自主管理，以及通知廟宇配合環保祭祀作為、營建工地加強空污防制，派稽查員抽查公私場所防制設備，鎖定露燃熱區，加強取締露天燃燒及高污染車輛烏賊車，於重要路口進行車輛怠速稽查，以減緩空氣品質進一步惡化。並透過中台灣區域治理平台與鄰近縣市共同管制主要空氣污染來源，要求台中火力發電廠及麥寮電廠啟動相關空品不良應變作為，已降載4000MW，以減緩中部空氣品質惡化。","問題三：但空氣品質不佳的原因為彰化地區受高壓迴流，環境風場轉為偏東風，且伴隨殘留於海上境外污染物移入，因此成為全台空品最差地區，而我們的實際作為只能做地方的固定汙染源加強管控，最多只能做到不要讓情況更糟，看起來不是對付空氣品質不佳的有效作為，在對付境外汙染物移入的情況，環境部有哪些具體建議及作法？對於境外污染物移入的監控，我們是否有機會有更好的預警或因應機制，如去年環境部曾宣示的環境部與國家太空中心（TASA）及中央大學簽署空品衛星與國際監測合作協議，預計4年內發射第一顆大氣污染監測衛星的做法，是否是一個更好的預警機制？相關協議及計畫的進度為何？","過去的環境監測都是從地面由下而上，未來的空品衛星可以透過更高的光譜觀測到境內外的空污和源頭，並且本土空污長期都被質疑與境外污染物移入有關，空品衛星的監測可提供更多的佐證。另外衛星觀測也能成為監督工具，可以檢視各國提出的碳排放數據與實際情況是否吻合，觀測結果也能提供世界銀行等多邊開發銀行，作為投資調適項目，當然更可以協助我國制定氣候政策。","問題四：空品衛星透過即時掌握境內外空污和溫室氣體變化，可提早預警空污發生及科學數據，衛星及國際監測資料可分享給其他國家來擴大應用，根據國家太空中心的說法，我們預計衛星發射的顆數約3到4顆。現行的衛星監控資料不在台灣手上，即時掌控資料上並不是那麼順利，在有了衛星監控資料之後，可預期的最大差別會是那些？空品衛星運行環境部有無需要做調整適配的地方？"],["委員蘇清泉書面質詢：","邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。","今天環境部報告提到，為減輕空氣品質惡化及對敏弱族群產生之影響，分別推動「強化受體防護」、「落實精準應變」及「區域聯防」措施，以維護敏弱族群健康，並有效減少污染物排放與累積。屏東有一個符合上述敏弱族群的例子，距離屏東縣枋山鄉獅子國中不到500公尺的豐惇瀝青廠，而且剛好位於學校的上風處。過去幾年學校有獲得經費安裝新風系統，但新風系統運作會有噪音，而且只是加強換氣，並沒有過濾異味的功能。","豐惇瀝青廠每年產量約13萬噸，根據屏東縣環保局核可的固定污染源設置及操作許可，瀝青廠作為石化工業，在生產過程會產生的空氣污染物又多又雜，包含粒狀污染物、硫氧化物、氮氧化物、一氧化碳（CO）、揮發性有機物，還有鉛、鎘、汞、砷、六價鉻等重金屬，以及戴奧辛、苯、甲苯等化學物質。根據國家環境毒物研究中心彙整的研究資料，長期暴露在這些污染物質中，不僅會影響呼吸道及肺部，也會增加罹癌風險，影響孩童心智發展、心血管疾病、貧血、增加罹患不孕症及流產的機率，對眼睛、腎臟、骨質、腦部、中樞神經系統、內分泌系統以及免疫系統等都有影響，可能會降低學習力、記憶力和注意力。","雖然獅子國中師生長期受到瀝青廠惡臭異味污染，但污染情形卻無法反映在空氣品質監測上，因為鄰近獅子國中的屏東縣微型感測器僅能監測空氣中PM2.5的變化，無法監測異味及揮發性有機物。本席不禁要問，難道環境部對此視而不見？毫無解決方案？而環境部國家監測站雖然能偵測到臭氧（O3）、二氧化硫（SO2）與二氧化氮（NO2），但距離最近的測站位在10公里遠的加祿國小枋山分校，而且國家測站主要是監測大範圍空氣品質變化，難以透過固定測站看見小範圍異味污染，只能透過任務性監測或環保局人員以手持儀器進行空污稽查。本席要求環境部應審慎研議，在可能產生空氣污染設施附近設置空污監測儀器，避免獅子國中師生及居民長期受到空污對人體危害。","由於目前瀝青廠設置無須考量周圍是否有學校、民宅，也不必進行環境影響評估審查，導致各地居民只能自力救濟，檢舉或要求業者改善污染防制。考量到瀝青廠對周遭民眾身體健康影響，環境部應研議瀝青廠設置須進行環評的可能性。爰要求環境部提出可行改善辦法，並回復本席辦公室。"],["主席：現在作如下決議：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於2周內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者從其所定。","本次會議到此結束，現在休息。","休息（13時37分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","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包委員其實這個建築物的更新是我們在我們的這個淨零的分類是內政部在主管的所以其實內政部有提出例如說新型的建築或是老舊的建築怎麼去改變沒錯 因為本席也有看到我們行政部門也有這樣的方向嘛但是絕對不存在是說新型的建築裡面我們完全放棄零碳建築或是淨零碳建築嘛"},{"start":174.801,"end":203.031,"text":"是吧沒錯所以我們國家重大工程的方向其實就是希望現在所提出來的就是以零碳建築或淨零碳建築來去做一個規劃是吧沒錯好謝謝部長部長那拉回來今天本席看到就是所謂的這個空氣品質監測的部分那你在這邊結論裡面有強調是說要成立空氣品質監測跟預報中心我想應該會是更精確的能夠掌握我們全台灣的一個空氣品質"},{"start":204.131,"end":232.191,"text":"它其實是因為我們過去這個監測跟預測是在監知師另外一個師然後應變又是大氣師是兩個師那在這當中呢有一些模糊的地帶我們希望把它整併經過我們部務規則的處務規則的調整額外到大氣師然後成立一個中心能夠變成說監測預測應變合為一體來考慮這個事情是本席認同這樣的方向因為重點在於是監測完之後要怎麼樣運用以及讓"},{"start":233.132,"end":249.285,"text":"地方政府也好 中央政府也好來去做一個這個因應嘛 對不對那本席有先看了一下我們現在有所謂的空氣品質監測網未來是不是你這所謂的一個監測預報中心就會結合現行有的這個監測網"},{"start":251.306,"end":276.041,"text":"能夠讓我們國人有更充足或是準確的一個資訊對 其實就原來這組人移到大氣室去但是他必須加上應變的任務使命在裡面是 那我想請教一下現在的這個監測網裡面我們總共有多少個一個監測站我們環境部的大概是六十六個嘛七十八個了然後還有很多的這種所謂的微型感測器大概一萬多個"},{"start":277.263,"end":279.694,"text":"地方咧中央其實是87個87個87站地方那地方"},{"start":284.702,"end":308.995,"text":"三十四站這都是你們自己的官網數字啦不是要考你這個部分啦但是我現在講的是說中央87地方34那但是淨零碳排的一個部分或是空氣品質的部分剛剛其實很多人一直提到中火本席過去到現在一直強調其實北台灣影響更大的其實是林口火力發電廠因為林口火力發電廠燃煤"},{"start":311.777,"end":331.376,"text":"從2015年10年前增加了第三號機組開始到現在已經也經過10年了到目前為止林口火力發電廠的一個偵測部分它是由地方政府來偵測而我們今天所討論很多的包括說PM2.5的部分因為這個算是新的一個很客觀的指標"},{"start":332.95,"end":349.738,"text":"部長您知道現在林口火力發電廠此時此刻PM2.5的指數多少嗎要現場查一下要現場查一下你要不要查一下我手邊沒有我直接告訴你沒有因為這一個監測數字在你們的官網上面他是寫未監測"},{"start":352.148,"end":366.072,"text":"林坤火力發電廠居然這個我也很訝異我說實在話我剛剛特別查了一下我也很訝異我要求我要拜託的是這應該是要把它納入一個數字它只有監測PM10但是PM2.5居然沒有"},{"start":368.928,"end":385.657,"text":"就是說我剛剛查了在中央的87個站裡面有包括PM10 PM2.5等相關的數字但是在地方的部分我不知道是只有林口火力發電廠這邊獨特還是其他地方的監測站都一樣他居然沒有把PM2.5的資料給變成是一個監測的資料"},{"start":389.079,"end":405.274,"text":"我覺得是不是如果未來我們變成說空氣品質監測跟預報中心整合在一起能夠再檢討一下中央地方的一些監測站能夠讓數字能夠更準確尤其是我相信我們很多優秀公務同仁有可能坐在林口"},{"start":406.328,"end":426.127,"text":"有可能住在我們新北林口火力發電廠三部燃煤機組火力全開的時候真的對於我們整體北台灣的空氣品質有一定程度的影響部長能夠做到嗎因為那個站是台電提供的嘛台電要不要請副總回應一下來報告委員謝謝委員剛剛的詢問"},{"start":431.38,"end":455.025,"text":"那個我們各個電廠含林口電廠我們本身都有跟當地的環保局有SIMS上的連線所有的資訊都有連在上面所有資訊都有的話就不會說網站上面沒秀出來這不是我自己這個是你可以現在去看是地方環保局你可以現在去看因為部長來拉回來部長"},{"start":458.175,"end":480.012,"text":"這個是很實際的數字我更期待的是未來你整合你今天的報告嘛第四點嘛成立空氣品質監測與預報中心我剛才已經先肯定你喔就是說要整合幾個部會預測以及之後的應用大氣的部分一起納進來那本席也期待是說你的官網上要更精進應該是說有一站式的網頁"},{"start":482.354,"end":500.569,"text":"讓國人都可以很清楚明白今天我想了解我地方附近的空氣品質的時候我去點馬上就看得出來那其實這個部分我想技術絕對不難但為什麼說過去沒有把PM2.5的這個數據給放進去而你在上面網站上面秀出來是未監測"},{"start":503.849,"end":513.106,"text":"這一點我想我這樣提出來已經算是很公允我們再來瞭解一下也希望讓大家都能夠理解你有PM10但PM2.5居然沒有這樣可以嗎"},{"start":516.569,"end":535.634,"text":"可以做一個檢討改進好不好大概簡單講一下我那時候我們網頁上是把環保署的環境部的78個站放進來這是第一個再來就是地方的那再來就是四個單位包括台電 中鋼等等那些建設站的方位還有特殊性工業區全部放進來"},{"start":536.474,"end":547.262,"text":"那每一個站應該要測什麼項目呢那就各個站原先設站的時候就已經決定了並不是連線的問題所以那邊回頭要去看一下這些站哪一些項目在增減那個我們再"},{"start":548.578,"end":573.244,"text":"抱歉 朝偉站起來 你們還是沒有抓到問題啊PN2.5是不是現在的顯學 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包委員 垃圾山第一個是要監控所以我們都現在在一些敏感危險的地方都有裝這個例如說紅外線的偵測儀然後還有自動灑水的設備但是其實就是幾個大的會發生火災那當然啦像苗栗前一陣子之前的幾個月前發生很大的這個火災所以現在這個的量可以說是大幅度的減少那我們事實上也是希望說明年年底因為我有對它承諾明年年底露天裸露垃圾山可以不要有"},{"start":267.429,"end":296.337,"text":"所以這個就可以徹底的解決這個問題因為按照部長的面相看來其實算是很有福報的我想在您這個辟印之下您剛剛許諾的這個願景應該可以實現那再來談到這個垃圾管理廢棄物的非法棄置的事件是不斷的在發生那根本的問題其實就是出在最源頭的資源循環還有最末端的這個妥善掩埋的這兩個部分"},{"start":297.199,"end":310.497,"text":"那現在看起來這個環境部好像這個有這個頭尾兩頭燒的這個現象啦那更遑論說這個掩埋空間掩埋場空間不足"},{"start":313.038,"end":329.051,"text":"所以我們現在就是說既然沒有辦法去開發新的掩埋場那也退不動說活化舊的掩埋場然後非法棄置的事件不斷然後又不敢說嚴格執行就擔心這個垃圾沒有地方可以去就堆積如山"},{"start":329.992,"end":355.108,"text":"那這個源頭的這個我想要請教一下這個進度就是有關於源頭的這個資源循環促進法的進度目前是怎麼樣那在整個法規的架構上你有提出說要打掉重練那到底這個重點在哪裡要請這個部長說明一下目前這個草案就是何時可以預告"},{"start":355.708,"end":381.842,"text":"好 包委員這個我們經歷了很多的努力這個你說的6月8月10月都是我去年承諾的那現在的進度也跟各位委員說明其實第一個是我們其實進到院裡面跨部會的在討論當中那有些部會呢對於這個裡面條文有些意見但是現在快要收尾了我們希望在未來幾個月內可以先預公告所以目前按照這個時間的進度來看的話應該是要到下半年我希望可以趕快送到立法院來做"},{"start":382.142,"end":407.597,"text":"所以大概今年其實就是意思就是今年其實就是可以讓這個草案公告目前的進度因為其實我們已經在行政院內部是走到最後一里路了因為之前那個我們送的時候也不一樣部會提出不一樣的意見我們必須尊重各個部會在協談當中結論就是今年下半年下半年一定一定會送出來因為這個會期可能來不及"},{"start":408.257,"end":430.529,"text":"好 那我們很期待那還有這個尾端的這個掩埋空間不足然後根據環境部的資料截至2024年8月全國公有掩埋場景只有剩下354萬立方公尺可以用的空間我們的有害事業廢棄物的掩埋空間目前還足夠嗎"},{"start":432.316,"end":460.971,"text":"目前的確委員說到的都是重點這種有害事業廢棄物現在已經有一些民營的但是其實各地的去化的量剛好都還在一個平衡之間那我們是希望說今年到明年有幾個新的焚化爐可以起來之後可以解決這個問題解決這個問題之後去化的管道或是掩埋場火化再利用管道通了之後其實未來的量這個問題就可以再處理"},{"start":461.411,"end":489.398,"text":"我想你們有重視到這個問題是很好一關一關的在卡在那邊好那現在我們要進入了比較實質那也關心一下我們台東最後就是這個掩埋場活化緩慢的問題我想要請教部長台東總共有幾個掩埋場委員上面是13個我都幫你寫好答案你怎麼那麼好心目前活化這個掩埋場總共做了幾個"},{"start":492.137,"end":506.55,"text":"這個我沒有掌握目前最先進 原來做了兩個哪兩個東河跟鹿野我看你是在民防你們這幾年來2016年一直到2022年"},{"start":511.621,"end":526.662,"text":"就是我看這幾年你們全部全台大概多少300個300多個也蠻多你們才總共做了做了12個啊12個不多對啊台東佔了兩個嗎"},{"start":528.815,"end":547.492,"text":"是 是 我們總共做了22個因為全台現在在營運中的掩埋廠大概有107個那我們活化有做了22個那台中我的印象裡是2個但是詳細數據但是你為什麼講不出來那2個是什麼因為沒有到現場去直接的勘察它的進度"},{"start":550.01,"end":578.646,"text":"我其實也是聽不太懂你們做了哪幾個就哪幾個啊台東13個哪兩個你不會問一下你們單位都沒有人可以支援嗎因為我這裡資料是沒有喔你說有兩個我們現在資料是兜不起來的喔你是不是平常人緣不太好為什麼沒有人來救你都沒有人要支援嗎還是你記錯了根本不在台東"},{"start":581.416,"end":607.736,"text":"我想這樣子來這幾張是我們Google這個台東野脈場呈現出來的狀況這個大家說台東好山好水啦但是部長你覺得這幾張照片這樣能看嗎完全不能看沒錯而且你要看喔來第一張是不是離海邊很近台東最漂亮的是什麼"},{"start":608.666,"end":629.947,"text":"海灘不是海灘對就是海岸線整個都很漂亮嘛所以大家想只要颱風一來每次最嚴重都是台東嘛那颱風這樣一刮一吹這所有垃圾還有一些這些污染都跑到那個就跑到海水裡面去啦所以"},{"start":632.708,"end":659.369,"text":"部長我覺得是這樣啦或許在未來我們焚化爐啟動那這樣可能會改善這個掩埋場的狀況啦但是這麼多掩埋了這麼多的垃圾而且早年沒有落實這個垃圾分類的問題所以他一定要先先去處理過這個挖出來的垃圾才能拿去燃燒嘛不然我們焚化爐很快就壞掉啦"},{"start":660.35,"end":688.623,"text":"所以我想在這個同時我也不想說等你活化做完我覺得在目前已經啟動這個焚化爐啟動那同步做活化的這個同時我們是不是可以因應台東它是一個我們很我們大部分人就仰賴這個觀光在生活還有這個農業那你是不是可以同步來做這個美化這件事情美化我們台東的"},{"start":690.024,"end":717.445,"text":"這些掩埋場我這樣的要求應該合理吧委員這個其實因為每個地方能夠處理的機制不一樣那也歡迎委員我們是不是下次有機會去考察一下我們可以一起去看那你們要下去之前當然你要做個排序我們一天看不完13個哪幾個最有問題我們最需要去看的那因為我要舉例比如說過去都立有個天空之境"},{"start":718.246,"end":745.804,"text":"天空很美我們每次帶朋友去的時候想要欣賞那個美麗的天空可是呢我們覺得很丟臉因為我們必須先經過那個很醜的掩埋場然後還要聞到那個惡臭所以我想基於這個台東算是觀光重鎮所以我在這裡要求你們是不是在我們初步可以你們利用兩個月的時間請你們那個環管署啊盤點這個研議那如何這個來"},{"start":748.426,"end":773.707,"text":"演繹這個如何美化台東所有的掩埋場這件事情沒問題但是我覺得要一步一步的去看等一下你不是環管署的吧他是環管署副署長新的嗎沒有沒有副署長原來的我以為換人了沒有所以署長是沒來是因為我要質詢嗎沒有是因為今天是空屋所以跟他們環管署比較沒有關"},{"start":774.508,"end":786.943,"text":"好那總之環關署這個重要的任務就交給你們希望你們可以如期完成好那中間我們有時間再去安排這樣好沒問題沒問題謝謝謝謝好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1301,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時7分）謝謝召委，麻煩請環境部部長。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。首先要感謝你，我特別代表關山鎮長及關山鎮民來謝謝你，核定臺東縣關山鎮畜牧糞尿資源化處理計畫。其實關山鎮的米也是很有名，並不輸給池上，而且它的環境也很漂亮，但是與池上比較起來，最近關山鎮的觀光在量化上輸了池上一些。有很多居民在關山可能會聞到一些豬糞的惡臭，因此，我認為這個計畫的經費下去之後，對關山鎮整個空氣品質的改善是很重要的，所以在此要特別謝謝部長的支持。","今天安排的題目是引述氣象惡化對空氣品質影響嚴重，本席過去也特別提出，就像東港有鮪魚季，臺灣每次進入10月之後，我特別幫它取名為空污季，提醒環境部要有對策。特別是對東部的衝擊影響很大，尤其是我們臺東的卑南溪，在整個東北季風的強風吹襲之下，揚起了風飛沙，我們吃飯時都要配風飛沙，甚至市區也都是灰濛濛的，嚴重影響到民眾的生活。你們今天的內容相較於過去，顯示好像真的有開始在重視這個問題，所以我在此也要先表示肯定之意。但我同時也要提醒，因為之前風災的關係，包括到太麻里地區，甚至是快接近南迴那邊，整個揚塵的問題又起來，所以未來我們可能要同步再討論該如何解決。","事實上，全球暖化與產業經濟的發展，甚至是中國大陸的沙塵暴，這些都會影響到整個空氣品質，然而這些都不是你們環境部的政策可以改變的，我們也都可以理解。本席認為，為了要改善空氣品質，在氣象惡化的前提之下，精進AQI的監測從而提出預警，可能是治標不治本，根本之計還是要控制空污的本土性污染源，特別是垃圾燃燒與火災的問題，我們從這方面思考可能會比較務實。","部長，你知道在各縣市的垃圾山常常會發生火災嗎？這些燃燒產生的煙塵與戴奧辛對空氣品質的影響非常嚴重，一次性高濃度、高危害的毒性物質曝露，就像是人急性中毒一樣，至於你們現在處理的氣象惡化影響空氣品質，打個比方，比較像是慢性中毒的問題。我相信部長應該可以接受急性中毒好像與民眾比較有切身關係、也比較感受得到，大家應該可以認同這樣的論述。我要請教部長，到底有沒有辦法讓垃圾山不要再發生火災？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，關於垃圾山的部分，第一個是要監控，目前我們在一些比較敏感、危險的地方都裝設了紅外線偵測儀及自動灑水設備，其實就是幾個大型的會發生火災，像是幾個月前在苗栗就發生了很大的火災，不過現在這個量可說是已經大幅度減少了。事實上，我也對外做過承諾，希望明年年底能夠不要再有露天裸露的垃圾山，這樣就可以澈底解決這個問題。"],["陳委員瑩：按照部長的面相看來，其實算是很有福報的，相信在你的庇蔭之下，剛剛你許諾的願景應該可以實現。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：再來要談的是垃圾管理，廢棄物非法棄置事件不斷的發生，根本問題其實就是出在最源頭的資源循環以及最末端的妥善掩埋。現在看起來，環境部好像有頭尾兩頭燒的現象，更遑論掩埋場空間不足，既然現在無法開發新的掩埋場，也推不動活化舊的掩埋場，面對非法棄置事件不斷，卻又不敢嚴格執行，因為擔心垃圾沒有地方可以去，最後會堆積如山。關於源頭的部分，我想請教一下，目前源頭的資源循環促進法進度是怎麼樣？在整個法規的架構上，你提出要打掉重練，到底這個重點在哪裡？請部長說明一下，目前這個草案何時可以預告？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們經過了很多的努力，你說的6月、8月、10月都是我去年承諾的，關於現在的進度，也在此向各位委員說明。第一個，我們已經送進院裡進行跨部會討論當中，有些部會對於其中的條文有些意見，但是現在已經快要收尾了，我們希望在未來幾個月內可以先預公告。因此，目前按照時間的進度來看，應該是在下半年，我希望能趕快送到立法院進行審議。"],["陳委員瑩：就是今年可以公告這個草案嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，其實我們已經在行政院內部走到最後一哩路了，因為之前送出去後，不一樣的部會有提出不一樣的意見，我們也必須尊重各個部會，目前的進度是正在協談當中。"],["陳委員瑩：結論就是今年啦！"],["彭部長啓明：下半年一定會送出來，因為這個會期可能來不及。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我們很期待。","關於尾端的掩埋空間不足，根據環境部的資料，截至2024年8月，全國公有掩埋場僅剩354萬立方公尺的空間可以使用，目前我們的有害事業廢棄物掩埋空間還足夠嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員說的確實都是重點，現在已經有一些民營的有害事業廢棄物掩埋場，但是各地去化的量剛好都還在一個平衡之間，我們是希望今年到明年有幾個新的焚化爐啟用後可以解決這個問題，在解決這個問題之後，去化的管道或是掩埋場活化再利用的管道通了之後，未來這個量就可以再處理。"],["陳委員瑩：你們有重視到這個問題是很好啦！"],["彭部長啓明：就是一關一關的卡在那邊。"],["陳委員瑩：現在我們要進入比較實質的問題，也關心一下我們的臺東，關於掩埋場活化緩慢的問題，我想要請問部長，臺東總共有幾個掩埋場？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，上面是寫13個，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：我都幫你寫好答案了。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：目前活化掩埋場總共做了幾個？"],["劉副署長瑞祥：我沒有掌握到目前最新的狀況，但原本是做了2個。"],["彭部長啓明：本來做了2個。"],["陳委員瑩：哪兩個？"],["彭部長啓明：東河與鹿野嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：我看你是在作夢喔！從2016年一直到2022年，這幾年來全臺大概有300個……"],["彭部長啓明：三百多個掩埋場。"],["陳委員瑩：對，你們總共才做了12個啊！"],["彭部長啓明：12個，不多、不多。"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！臺東占了2個嗎？"],["劉副署長瑞祥：是。"],["陳委員瑩：哪兩個？"],["劉副署長瑞祥：我們總共做了22個，全臺現在營運中的掩埋場大概有107個，活化的已經做了22個，在我的印象中臺東是有2個，但詳細的數字……"],["陳委員瑩：為什麼你講不出那兩個是什麼？"],["劉副署長瑞祥：因為沒有到現場實地勘查進度。"],["陳委員瑩：其實我也是聽不太懂，你們在臺東的13個之中做的是哪兩個？你不會問一下嗎？你們的單位都沒有人可以支援嗎？根據我這裡的資料是沒有喔！"],["劉副署長瑞祥：我們會後去查證。"],["陳委員瑩：你說有2個，與我現在的資料是兜不起來的喔！"],["劉副署長瑞祥：我們會後去查證，再提供資料給委員。"],["陳委員瑩：你是不是平常人緣不太好，為什麼沒有人來救你？都沒有人要支援嗎？還是你記錯了，根本不在臺東？好啦！"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們再補資料，好不好？"],["陳委員瑩：這幾張是我們google臺東掩埋場呈現出來的狀況，大家都說臺東好山好水，但是部長覺得這幾張照片這樣能看嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：完全不能看。"],["陳委員瑩：沒錯！先看第一張，是不是離海邊很近？臺東最漂亮的是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：海灘、山、還有海水。"],["陳委員瑩：整個海岸線都很漂亮嘛！但是每次颱風一來，受創最嚴重的都是臺東，颱風這樣一颳一吹，所有的垃圾污染都到了海裡。部長，或許未來焚化爐啓動可能會改善掩埋場的狀況，但是掩埋場掩埋了這麼多的垃圾，況且早年沒有落實垃圾分類的做法，一定要先將挖出來的垃圾處理過才能送去燃燒，不然焚化爐很快就會壞掉了。在此同時，我也不想等你的活化做完，目前在焚化爐啓動與同步做活化的同時，因為臺東大部分的人都是仰賴觀光及農業在生活，你們是不是可以同步做美化這件事情？美化我們臺東的這些掩埋場，我這樣的要求應該合理吧？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，因為每個地方能夠處理的機制不一樣，也歡迎委員下次有機會是不是能與我們去考察，一個一個去看一下。"],["陳委員瑩：可以一起去看，在你們要下去之前要先做好排序，我們一天看不完13個嘛！哪幾個最有問題、最需要去看？譬如都歷有個天空之鏡，天空很美，我們每次想帶朋友去欣賞美麗的天空，卻又覺得很丟臉，因為我們必須先經過那個很醜的掩埋場，而且還要聞到那個惡臭。因為臺東算是觀光重鎮，所以我在這裡要求，請你們環管署利用2個月的時間盤點，並且研議如何美化臺東所有的掩埋場。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，沒問題，但是我覺得要一步一步去看，因為……"],["陳委員瑩：等一下，這位不是環管署的吧？"],["彭部長啓明：他是環管署副署長。"],["陳委員瑩：新任的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，他是原本的副署長。"],["陳委員瑩：我以為換人了。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有。"],["陳委員瑩：所以是署長沒來？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員瑩：是因為我要質詢嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，因為今天的議題是空污，與他們環管署比較無關。"],["陳委員瑩：總之，環管署，這個重要的任務就交給你們，希望你們可以如期完成。如果我們中間有時間，再安排去考察。"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請洪孟楷委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}},{"id":"159289","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159289","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb0e3617f9bf8c8183100c4df18311f68d19c9681c5de839540410b60c5f7a9dc05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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軍公教人員放三天假相關的勞工也配合這個規定"},{"start":374.042,"end":402.683,"text":"也配合這個規定去放三天假我們現在就是希望能夠回復應該要回復應該要回復以前都做得到啊以前都虧三天假為什麼變一天假應該要回復所以本席所提的這個我的名稱叫國家紀念日及節日實施法"},{"start":404.296,"end":431.847,"text":"這個特別明定原住民族的誓死祭應該跟春節一樣要放三天假這個人民會你們的報告啊獨落了鄭天才三個字這個請檢討好不好你們的報告沒有我的名字有關接下來那個部長就請回座"},{"start":433.411,"end":461.046,"text":"現在接下來跟園民會主要是園民會園民會我們很多事情就要去跟相關的部會溝通協調包括剛才講的前戲部當時就可以有三天假當然我曾經當過副主委我也沒有盡到後面的責任被剝奪了改為一天之後的一個責任我們要繼續努力"},{"start":462.11,"end":491.552,"text":"好我現在接下來談的就是這個蔡總統特別提到這個原住民族的相關的這些好我因為時間的關係原住民族重大歷史事件這個很明確都已經調查完畢了所以民族平等紀念日也應該要明定為什麼有228對不對和平紀念日為什麼就不能有原住民族"},{"start":492.25,"end":521.532,"text":"平等紀念日來紀念我們13個重大的歷史事件所以這個部分這個是我們必須要請這個人民會多多的跟內政部以及相關的部會包括人事行政總署包括行政院來多溝通協調希望能夠促成我們應該應該要有的放假日或者是"},{"start":522.349,"end":523.172,"text":"紀念日 以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1183,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（13時1分）主席，有請內政部長還有曾主委。"],["主席：劉部長、曾主委，有請。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長辛苦了。"],["劉部長世芳：是，委員您好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們看中央法規標準法，第五條特別規定法律有明文規定的，應以法律規定之，關於人民的權利、義務，要以法律定之。行政程序法第一百五十條規定法規命令要有法律的授權、要有法律的依據，這很明確喔！所以我們現在這些……行政程序法88年2月3號公布，然後90年1月1號施行，這跟紀念日、節日有沒有關係呢？這就涉及到我們的紀念日及節日實施辦法。目前這個規定還是叫辦法，但按照中央法規標準法，應該用法律來明定；依據行政程序法，也應該要有法律的授權，這是中央法規標準法、這是行政程序法所明定。中華民國的法規命令中，唯一還存在不合行政程序法的就是這個紀念日及節日實施辦法，從民國90年1月1號以來，已經違法25年了。部長，這個已經違法25年了！部長！"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我再跟委員做一下補充喔！紀念日及節日實施辦法上一次修正日期其實是在民國103年，不是你所說的90年。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，我要從頭講啊？"],["劉部長世芳：我在聽啊！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，這個辦法民國四十幾年就有了！我的重點是說，依照中央法規標準法，尤其是民國90年1月1號施行的行政程序法規定！早期就比較混、沒有完全法制化啦！而從民國90年1月1號開始，行政程序法規定所有法規命令要有法律授權，沒有法律的授權就要失效、就是違法的！我是在講這個。紀念日及節日實施辦法若依照行政程序法的規定，要有法律的授權，但是它沒有法律的授權，然後也沒有法律的依據，所以它是違法25年的法規命令，我的意思是這樣啦！","當初為了一例一休，105年修正勞動基準法。原來的勞動基準法對於勞工的放假不是這樣規定的，為了一例一休，把它改成第三十七條：「內政部所定應放假之紀念日、節日、勞動節及其他中央主管機關指定應放假日，均應休假。」你看，這就是了，法律居然依據違法的紀念日及節日實施辦法，我要講的是這個。中華民國是民主憲政的國家，內政部作為紀念日及節日實施辦法的主管機關，怎麼樣適法、合法，要想辦法說服。當然不完全是你的責任啦！過去8年的、尤其是過去的內政部，不管是哪一年開始，至少從90年1月1號以後的內政部部長都應該有這個責任去溝通、協調，趕快讓這個成為法律的位階，本席的重點在這邊啦！","「原住民族歲時祭儀假應該回復放假3日」，這個曾主委要特別看一下，內政部部長也看一下。民國84年2月28號，銓敘部發函給所有機關，是依據什麼呢？根據臺灣省政府請求銓敘部，希望原住民族歲時祭儀能夠從放1天假改為放3天假，銓敘部在84年2月28號同意放3天假。因為這張公文，軍公教人員放3天假，相關勞工也配合這個規定放3天假，我們現在就是希望能夠回復，應該要回復！以前都做得到啊！以前都可以放3天假，為什麼變1天假？應該要回復。所以，本席所提的名稱叫做國家紀念日及節日實施法啦！這裡特別明定原住民族的歲時祭儀應該跟春節一樣要放3天假。原民會，你們的報告獨漏了鄭天財3個字，請檢討啊！好不好？你們的報告沒有我的名字啊！"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長請回座，接下來比較跟原民會有關。原民會有很多事情要跟相關部會溝通、協調啦！包括剛才講的銓敘部當時就可以有3天假。當然，我曾經當過副主委，也沒有盡到後面的責任啦！就是被剝奪了、改為1天之後的責任，我們要繼續努力。","我接下來談的就是蔡總統特別提到原住民族相關的言論。因為時間關係，我談「原住民族重大歷史事件」，這個很明確，都已經調查完畢了，所以民族平等紀念日也應該明定。為什麼有二二八和平紀念日，但為什麼就不能有原住民族平等紀念日，來紀念13件重大歷史事件？所以這個部分我們必須請原民會多、多、多地跟內政部以及相關部會，包括人事行政總處、包括行政院多溝通協調，希望能夠促成我們應該要有的放假日或者是紀念日。以上，謝謝。"],["曾主任委員智勇：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。","下一位請張啓楷委員。張啓楷委員、張啓楷委員不在。","下一位請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159288","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159288","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb76e737296f2a0667100c4df18311f68d19c9681c5de839541053e709b707af575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:50:49 - 13:01:21","影片長度":"00:10:32","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T12:50:49+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T13:01:21+08:00","duration":632,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.109718750000003,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.505968750000001,"end":12.130343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.27659375,"end":57.743468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.064093750000005,"end":106.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.93409375,"end":165.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.97971875000002,"end":167.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.88596875000002,"end":178.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.70346875,"end":185.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.83721875,"end":187.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.43596875,"end":194.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.25846875000002,"end":192.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.31721875000002,"end":193.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.02159375000002,"end":195.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.79784375,"end":202.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.64909375000002,"end":205.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.95284375,"end":203.39159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.69534375,"end":205.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.25159375,"end":217.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.87034375000002,"end":239.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.77409375000002,"end":272.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.35534375,"end":249.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.81846875000002,"end":254.01659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.19784375,"end":260.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.78159375,"end":277.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.59096875,"end":278.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.36284375,"end":296.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.59221875000003,"end":297.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.73971875,"end":300.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.81096875000003,"end":413.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.60346875000005,"end":424.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.39909375,"end":431.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.59221875000003,"end":437.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.63346875,"end":474.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.72409375,"end":452.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.35159375,"end":461.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.61909375000005,"end":529.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.58096875,"end":476.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.79221875,"end":506.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.79971875,"end":508.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.9328437500001,"end":520.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.54846875,"end":523.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.00721875,"end":532.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.97721875,"end":536.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.21284375,"end":538.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.57534375,"end":542.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.91659375,"end":547.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.6753437500001,"end":551.8603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.26534375,"end":556.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.45034375,"end":617.0147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.0647187500001,"end":621.7565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.3303437500001,"end":627.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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有請劉部長劉部長有請"},{"start":21.951,"end":39.177,"text":"部長好現行的紀念日及節日實施辦法裡面在第4條這麼寫著就是這些民俗節日除了春節放假三日之外其餘均放假一日那我們可以看到像春節"},{"start":40.297,"end":57.493,"text":"民族扫墓节端午节中秋节农历除夕这些对原住民来讲都是属于汉人的碎石记忆但是呢在第六条有一个原住民族的碎石记忆特别提到就是圆明会"},{"start":58.855,"end":75.37,"text":"關於到底要放假哪一天可以參酌各個原住民族的習俗然後公告刊登在政府公報那我今天我特別就是要提到我的訴求那這訴求不是源自於我而是多年來"},{"start":76.411,"end":94.442,"text":"各地族人不同的一個呼求就是希望說政府呢這個美意為德不足啊希望可以把碎石計一架可以從一天可以增加到三天那為什麼我這樣說因為當時園民會也做了懶人包那發給大家告訴大家說架要怎麼放那他說具備原住民身份的可以從自己或他的配偶"},{"start":104.528,"end":128.706,"text":"父母呢來擇一日來放假那可是我們遇到的困境就是說請假很難為什麼呢因為我們這個叫做行政命令的規定嘛那麼這個原住民族碎石記憶呢可以放一天可是很多人他們會提到說雇主不給假甚至"},{"start":129.466,"end":146.115,"text":"我們會不敢請因為雇主會說請假之後就不要再回來所以這個部分勞動部當時也有提就是說不行啊這個雇主如果不給假的話依法可以採取新台幣兩萬至一百元"},{"start":147.856,"end":166.925,"text":"所以100萬元所以這個部分勞工不知道其實也很多的老闆不知道所以整個感覺上就是整個社會還有部會的一個溝通是很不足的那我就想要請教一下就是部長如果我們的春節只放一天假您會不會返鄉"},{"start":171.912,"end":187.521,"text":"春節只放一天假我會不會返鄉事實上就不存在啊因為農曆除夕也放假所以事實上不存在我不回答如果的問題那如果說清明掃墓節放一天你會不會回去"},{"start":189.668,"end":204.85,"text":"請問要回去哪裡我就住在這裡老家呢老家對我來講移動都不是困難那如果是要清明掃墓的話我們會擇期只要家人同意就可以了所以比較不會是因為那如果是中秋節呢"},{"start":208.371,"end":230.391,"text":"報告委員我想我們以前擔任民意代表都知道放假日越多只是讓民意代表越累而已跟哪一天放假其實沒有太大的差別現在我要講的就是政府一直以來這些年特別我們從陳水扁政府以來我們制定了很多關於原住民族的權益"},{"start":231.152,"end":250.93,"text":"不論是在語言的復振、文化的復振我們打的口號就是說過去政府剝奪拿走的尤其是民進黨政府我們非常的鼓勵要重新做語言文化的復振但是我剛剛有講您剛剛講的應該是說民進黨政府並沒有剝奪也沒有拿走那是過去國民黨政府"},{"start":255.013,"end":271.959,"text":"党政时期的时候对但是在民进党政府时期我们可以看到包括很多我们的原住民身份法等等原籍法等等都得到很多权益跟转型正义的回复现在我就是要讲"},{"start":272.859,"end":300.094,"text":"以我們原住民族散落在山巔水崖像蘭嶼我們現在都知道原住民族尤其是內政部的人口統計超過50%都已經移居到渡惠地區所以呢當要去做這種所謂的文化復政的時候很辛苦像蘭嶼的達物族人他有祭典政府告訴他可以放一天假"},{"start":300.894,"end":315.13,"text":"但是他要花很多的時間跟交通工具要回到他的家鄉去放這個假我們可以講他根本沒有辦法我剛剛談的是雇主有很多的刁難現在我講的是時間上有很多的困難"},{"start":319.935,"end":339.217,"text":"那像這樣的一個狀況就會造成說他還需要返鄉嗎他還要去過他的碎死記憶嗎所以我常常說觀念決定一切也許我們的全民原教我們的社會溝通還不足像很多人放假碎死記憶以排灣族的五年紀來講Malva"},{"start":340.859,"end":357.247,"text":"他其實前前後後需要15天那以阿賴族一律信他也是要從前一個月就要集合訓練學習技能才有辦法參加他們所謂的一個豐年祭一律信"},{"start":357.967,"end":380.686,"text":"那這個部分其實我們也不過只放一天所以呢對很多人來講他的交通時間成本他很難放假第二個他的雇主也很難給假因為不理解有那麼重要嗎你有需要嗎所以我很高興的是說我們有看到全民原教的一環就是有一個叫做多元文化假"},{"start":381.626,"end":384.87,"text":"現在有一些大學 像是台大 政大 他們呢 像台大每學期可以請兩天那像這個政大的話 它是每學年可以請兩天 但是這是大學自治不是每個大學都會有這樣的一個規定"},{"start":400.945,"end":424.401,"text":"所以呢我們總希望說政府總是要有個規念像我們現在的這個紀念日及節日的實施辦法它就是一個規念那我想要請教部長的就是說我不是問同意你是否認同像這種原住民的碎石記憶架可以增加到三天這是大多數原住民族人的呼求"},{"start":425.562,"end":451.693,"text":"報告委員我想你講的放假的部分齁如果用這樣的方式是治標不治本在內政部所主導的裡面原住民族的遂時寄宜他本來就可以放假但是你告訴我說因為他交通的關係因為他沒有辦法回去的關係所以增加變成三天那增加三天的勞動成本有沒有社會共識就是跟我們今天所討論的一樣有沒有社會共識所以我所以"},{"start":453.194,"end":473.79,"text":"同時的問題的話就要回歸到原來的每個部會裡面在討論我們這樣的做法對不對部長我現在希望說不要治標不治本我們用標的方式要治本這件事情的話呢包括增加一天那剛剛我聽原民會的主委在提有些部落他們可能做這個"},{"start":477.233,"end":501.853,"text":"長達一個月的這個時間那我們怎麼樣去回覆這個原民的同胞對於遂時祭儀的認同對於我們來講它是一個紀念它是一個尊重原住民族但是原住民族太多不同的族群有不同的遂時祭儀的狀況之下我們也只能夠說放假一天那包括委員所提案的部分的話你提到的你還幫客家人提案"},{"start":502.674,"end":523.388,"text":"有客家人談我的提案我只講說是記憶因為這是我最低微的最低的訴求但是你提到的都只有一天你今天突然提到變成三天那這樣子是不是可以獲得所有的全國的人的認同然後把它放到是個假日裡面我覺得還是要回復到原來內政部所制定的全國的版本那部長我跟您說剛才你提到治標治本的問題現在我們也要提當我們在放這些假的時候"},{"start":533.054,"end":555.705,"text":"我們到底有沒有放到實質上的意義現在顯然是沒有的這個就是我講的政府的美意為德不足當我們在放這些所謂漢人的碎石記憶架的時候但是我們回頭看我們要放原住民的碎石記憶架它既因為社會觀念的溝通不足"},{"start":556.525,"end":563.471,"text":"它有障礙它又因為大家沒有辦法理解原住民今日的處境散落在都會地區返鄉的時間跟交通成本的困難這些種種我都是希望說我們是不是要加強社會溝通"},{"start":574.159,"end":596.779,"text":"第二個就是說要全面盤點國定假日的社會共識而且要特別特別提醒要注意元旱節日權益的不平等這個就是我最後的訴求也就是剛才部長您所提到的那些這也正是我覺得在社會溝通部分我們其實還有很大的一段路要走那我希望"},{"start":597.339,"end":616.956,"text":"內政部在這個部分能夠跟我們的其他的部會 相關的部會包括原民會 包括行政院人事總署包括我們的勞動部等等等然後能夠盡力的來去做好全面的社會溝通那我們很希望全民原教的這一天能夠快快的到來這樣可以嗎 部長尊重委員"},{"start":622.787,"end":626.232,"text":"那我們就要盡力的來往這個方向走好 謝謝部長好 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳立華委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1153,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時51分）謝謝主席。有請劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。現行的紀念日及節日實施辦法第四條這麼寫著：「下列民俗節日，除春節放假三日外，其餘均放假一日」，我們可以看到像：春節、民族掃墓節、端午節、中秋節、農曆除夕，這些對原住民來講都是屬於漢人的歲時祭儀。但是第六條有一個原住民族的歲時祭儀，它特別提到原民會，就是有關到底要放假哪一天？可以參酌各個原住民族的習俗，然後公告刊登在政府公報。","我今天要特別提到我的訴求，我的訴求不是源自於我，而是多年來各地族人不同的呼求，就是希望政府這個美意不要為德不卒，我們希望可以把歲時祭儀假從1天增加到3天，為什麼我要這樣說？因為當時原民會也做了懶人包，也發給大家，告訴大家說假要怎麼放，它說具備原住民身分可以從自己或他的配偶、父母，擇一日來放假，可是我們遇到的困境是請假很難，為什麼呢？因為這是行政命令的規定，原住民族的歲時祭儀可以放1天，可是很多人都提到雇主不給假，甚至我們也不敢請，因為雇主會說請假後就不要再回來，所以這個部分，當時勞動部也有提，它說不行，如果雇主不給假的話，依法可以裁處新臺幣2萬元至100萬元，這個部分勞工不知道，其實也有很多的老闆不知道，所以感覺上，整個社會和部會的溝通是不足的。所以我想要請教一下，部長，如果我們的春節只放1天假，您會不會返鄉？"],["劉部長世芳：春節只放1天假我會不會返鄉？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，你會不會返鄉？"],["劉部長世芳：事實上，這不存在啊！因為農曆除夕也放假啊！所以事實上不存在，我不回答如果的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：但是在民進黨政府時期，我們可以看到包括很多我們的原住民身分法、原基法等等，都得到很多權益跟轉型正義的回復。現在我就是要講，以我們原住民族散落在山巔、水涯，像蘭嶼，我們都知道現在原住民族，尤其是內政部的人口統計，超過50%都已經移居到都會地區，所以當要去做這種所謂文化復振的時候很辛苦，像蘭嶼的達悟族人，他有祭典，政府告訴他可以放一天假，但是他要花很多的時間跟交通工具，要回到他的家鄉去放這個假，我們可以講，他根本沒有辦法，我剛剛談的是雇主有很多的刁難，現在我講的是時間上有很多的困難，像這樣的一個狀況就會造成他還需要返鄉嗎？他還要去過他的歲時祭儀嗎？所以我常常說觀念決定一切，也許我們的全民原教、我們的社會溝通還不足，像很多人放假，歲時祭儀，以排灣族的五年祭（Maljeveq）來講，他其實前前後後需要15天。以阿美族的Ilisin為例，他也是要從前一個月就要集合、訓練、學習技能，才有辦法參加他們所謂的一個豐年祭（Ilisin），這個部分其實我們也不過只放一天，所以對很多人來講，他的交通時間成本，他很難放假。第二個，他的雇主也很難給假，因為不理解有那麼重要嗎？你有需要嗎？所以我很高興的是說我們有看到，全民原教的一環就是有一個叫做多元文化假，現在有一些大學，像是臺大、政大，他們呢，像臺大每學期可以請兩天，政大的話，他是每學年可以請兩天，但是這是大學自治，不是每個大學都會有這樣的一個規定，所以我們總希望說，政府總是要有個圭臬，像我們現在的紀念日及節日實施辦法，它就是一個圭臬，那我想要請教部長就是，我不是問同意，你是否認同像這種原住民的歲時祭儀假可以增加到三天？這是大多數原住民族人的呼求。"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我想你講了放假的部分，如果用這樣的方式是治標不治本，在內政部所主導的裡面，原住民族的歲時祭儀，他本來就可以放假，但是你告訴我說，因為他交通的關係，因為他沒有辦法回去的關係，所以要增加變成三天，那增加三天的勞動成本，有沒有社會共識？就是跟我們今天所討論的一樣，有沒有社會共識，所以裡面如果有提到工時問題的話，就要回歸到原來的每個部會裡面在討論我們這樣的作法對不對，現在我不希望說……"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：那就要盡力往這個方向走喔！謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢。","下一位請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159287","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159287","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fba37930166384dc3c100c4df18311f68d19c9681c5de8395411aaf748057b52845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:36:28 - 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仔細再做不是嘛 我已經白紙黑色亮出來了你還要在這邊強辯還要在這邊撒謊這審計不下去 審計的結果啊111年計畫就結束了112年開始 沒有再辦理該計畫"},{"start":180.26,"end":195.972,"text":"結果112年的預算書113年的預算書繼續編根本就不存在的計畫聯名會預算書可以這樣編嗎用幽靈的計畫來騙預算這樣對嗎來請教主委我們還有一些違印的計畫所以才有這樣子編違印的計畫主委我已經白紙黑字亮出來給你看了"},{"start":211.755,"end":233.551,"text":"你還繼續在台上鬼扯啊這是審計部交來的審計報告啊我現在的問題很簡單啊這兩年邊在這個企劃向下的錢花到什麼地方去邊在這個企劃向下的錢花到什麼地方去這是我的問題"},{"start":235.799,"end":258.447,"text":"趴到哪裡去因為確實啦確實過去的編列不太妥當但是就是說我們有一些這個先兩個部分嘛第一個你剛剛承認一件事情我肯定你啊過去的編列不太妥當啊這個不是用不太妥當四個字就可以形容啊這根本在胡搞瞎搞啊計畫已經終結了結果用幽營計畫來騙預算"},{"start":261.392,"end":281.546,"text":"這個審計部的報告寫得很清楚啦現在我的第二個問題是錢花到哪裡去啊錢花到哪裡去牽涉到兩個年度你編在這個計畫項下面原民會把錢花到什麼地方去嗎針對這件事情一個禮拜之內給我書面回覆好嗎好可以嗎可以好"},{"start":282.574,"end":305.148,"text":"那第三個事情跟這個有關係的事情是審計部的報告上面也說原民會這樣亂搞不對那我現在的問題來啦那接下來原民會這件事情打算要怎麼辦就算了反正錢都花了錢要追回來嗎不是我們現在跟審計部我們也在做一個檢討需要檢討多久"},{"start":308.837,"end":326.552,"text":"這沒有什麼好檢討的啦,我老實跟你講啦這個就是一個幽靈計畫嘛錢花到哪裡去了一個禮拜回復我我現在接下來的問題是要花掉這些錢接下來現在要怎麼辦要追回來嗎還是錢花了就花了,這是我的問題"},{"start":328.971,"end":354.722,"text":"因為我們現在跟審計部也有在跟他們做說明假設就是審計部怎麼樣來指示或者是怎麼樣來要我們檢討我們會依照他的意思來做檢討你們回文審計部了嗎回了回的內容會後可不可以提供給我好如果審計部要把錢追回來你們就會把錢追回來對不對對這件事情很重要下一個問題崔榮浩上任以後提了幾次覆議你知道嗎"},{"start":357.235,"end":385.045,"text":"應該是五次吧應該是五次嘛我們上次修了原住民族委員會組織法三讀後你們原民會發聲明說要提復議提了沒有這個跟委員報告我們就是這個部分我們要研議後來我們研議的結果我們沒有提奇怪了聲明不是嗆得很大聲說要提復議到最後也沒有提怎麼樣是昨天他不支持嗎"},{"start":386.297,"end":414.375,"text":"是院長不支持嗎不是後來我們就沒有對嘛我當然知道你客觀上沒有提嘛那我現在的問題就很清楚啊奇怪我們的園民會是把婦役當兒戲嗎在臉書上貼還發了新聞稿嗆聲嗆得很大聲結果搞到後來虎頭蛇尾什麼都沒有做是你要提婦役卓榮泰不支持嗎說清楚啊"},{"start":418.769,"end":438.215,"text":"有人會可以這樣幹喔?蛤?我們後來就是我們自己內部就是研議就是我們研議之後我們就沒有提所以當初發這個聲明然後寫臉書嗆聲是什麼?私律不周嗎?你內部還沒有研議完就急著發臉書嗆聲啊?"},{"start":442.591,"end":469.713,"text":"不是啊!這個臉書是假的嗎?這個新聞稿是假的嗎?我有說錯嗎?哇!我跟主委講啊三思而後行啊想清楚啦想清楚啦不要以後讓大家不把圓明會的聲明當一回事啊"},{"start":470.919,"end":481.528,"text":"你講了以後又沒有執行到底讓人家看破手腳覺得很遺憾來接下來再請一下部長請部長部長有請"},{"start":485.29,"end":502.623,"text":"不好意思部長我們那個進度我要繼續追一下我上一次的時候我要請教你針對極有法修正的進程目前進度如何目前我們警政署已經討論完畢但是跟其他單位之間還需要多久"},{"start":504.209,"end":526.569,"text":"可能會有困擾 因為行政院會要求我們所謂的復建裡面的禁制區域禁制區域包括像醫院 或者是像司法機關前面這些每個人的看法都不一樣所以現在行政院的立場是要繼續維持禁制區嗎現在還是需要考量禁制區但是呢來 我們先一個一個具體的來看剛剛你講到禁制區嘛"},{"start":529.393,"end":545.12,"text":"這個是內政部在1996年所公告的禁制區國外破區化得非常的大,我的在地圖上全部把它框出來這個是1996年內政部公告的禁制區從1996年到現在2025年,這個禁制區的範圍有檢討過嗎?"},{"start":550.247,"end":575.714,"text":"現在在檢討那但是呢現在在檢討所以從1996最起碼到今天為止沒有任何變更嗎目前為止是沒有但是我想委員非常知道在相關的一些集會遊行活動其實我們採取比較有聯繫的措施非常嚴謹啊當初馬政府時期的時候民進黨發的新聞稿是什麼說的是黑心版本"},{"start":577.032,"end":600.258,"text":"為什麼說那個時候提出來這黑心版本因為他要保留禁制區嘛賴清德主張集遊法禁制區要刪除這個是賴清德在2008年的時候集會遊行法公聽會代表民主進步黨黨團發表的立場這個立場到今天是不是改變了"},{"start":602.928,"end":610.891,"text":"這個立場到現在為止所謂的禁制區的規定予以廢除這個事情其實我們有所保留所以賴清德總統的立場改變了是嗎所以賴總統的立場沒有改變但是內政部有保留是這樣嗎"},{"start":617.893,"end":642.28,"text":"我們的保留是在於執行面會碰到困擾所以當初賴清德在當立委的時候他主張要廢除進治區那個時候醫院的騷擾沒有那麼大對於醫院等安全進治區的騷擾沒有那麼大那時宜進遷我們覺得必須要所以時空環境背景不太一樣了賴清德立委那個時候的主張到賴清德總統現在有改變是嗎"},{"start":643.83,"end":654.258,"text":"如果說我們的主張 譬如說本來是申請制然後變成一部分的報備制那其實是朝著這個方向在處理我們希望是審慎的處理而不是斷崖式的處理所以那時候賴清德的主張是斷崖式的處理嗎"},{"start":661.263,"end":677.408,"text":"沒有 它是它的主張主張跟處理的方式是牽涉到在行政部門的執行的方式那行政部門的執行方式就是剛剛我跟委員報告的部分因為你在司法區域或是相關的司法單位的話不是行政部門而是司法部門"},{"start":678.408,"end":698.513,"text":"然後行政部門包括醫院等這些一受到騷擾會干擾到病患或是干擾到去司法院處理一些他們的司法的業務的部分的話那這個必須要比較多的時間跟他們溝通所以你剛剛講的那些考慮賴清德當初在主張廢除禁制區的時候都沒有想到就對了"},{"start":699.461,"end":715.994,"text":"他是一個原則我們根據這個原則在處理他當初提的原則不就是要廢除經濟區嗎來來來紅色的字啊你要念一下嗎白紙黑字啊寫得這麼清楚的東西啊立場有改變就改變嘛有轉彎就轉彎嘛來"},{"start":719.692,"end":744.459,"text":"這個是當初2008年一路到現在2016年那個時候結果到現在就沒有然後了部長說要演繹某個程度上我並不反對但是一個法案從2016年都是民進黨政府主政行政部門全部都是民進黨政府演繹到現在2025年"},{"start":746.988,"end":751.401,"text":"請問部長還要再研議多久還是一樣沒有時間表,有可能一路研議到2028年"},{"start":754.674,"end":778.178,"text":"我無法在這個地方跟委員會講一件事所以當初在提證件的時候,怎麼提都可以嗎?真的要實現證件的時候,開始問題一堆啊、藉口一堆啊,說要延避大家也都同意重點是什麼?從2016年延避到2025年,接下來還要再延避多久?"},{"start":778.658,"end":807.458,"text":"仍然會在研議當中我知道 我了解持續的研議嘛不斷的研議嘛對啊現在你所講的問題啊當初在2008年好像都不存在嘛你現在講的問題在2008年都不存在嘛所以2008年的時候那新北總統才會提出這樣的主張嘛結果搞到現在2025年的時候還是一模一樣嘛彷彿你今天講的考慮2008年都不存在一樣啊"},{"start":808.888,"end":827.843,"text":"一個政府開了支票就要兌現不是拿來跳票的所以當初2008年賴清德提這個主張就是不審慎就是不嚴謹就是賴清德當初提那樣的主張就是要造成人民的困擾不是嗎所以主張就說得是一套真的可以做的時候就沒有要做"},{"start":837.651,"end":851.026,"text":"沒有 現在有在做只是在考量要更審慎是 你們說現在有在做從2016年做到現在已經2025年了嘛那大家就看你們持續研議下去要研議多久嘛好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1069,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時36分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請原民會的主委，也請內政部的部長。"],["主席：請曾主委和劉部長。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好、部長好。先請教主委，之前原民會辦一個原住民族人口基礎資料庫規劃還有建置研究，這個研究執行到什麼時候？"],["曾主任委員智勇：112年。"],["黃委員國昌：你們在112年的時候執行到112年，那113年的預算為什麼還有這個建置研究？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為這個還要做一些收尾的工作。"],["黃委員國昌：所以有收尾嗎？有執行嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：後來就是有弄到智慧治理的部分來……"],["黃委員國昌：來，你先針對問題回答。我們編預算的原則，你有計畫所以要有經費，我現在的問題是這個計畫早就終止了，為什麼這個計畫終止，後面還有編預算？剛剛你說到112年，來，我們來看一下，112年就沒有在執行了，這是白紙黑字，審計部的調查報告出來，現在我非常地困惑，原民會的預算到底是怎麼編的？從112年就沒這個計畫，這個計畫到111年就結束了，我們再回去看一下，你們原民會的預算書112年、113年每一年都還有這個計畫執行，每一年都在編經費，那現在出現的問題是什麼？是你們在虛編預算，執行幽靈計畫嗎？這個計畫111年就終止了，為什麼112年、113年的預算還出現這個計畫？主委可不可以說明一下？這怎麼回事？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們還有一些維運的計畫持續在做。"],["黃委員國昌：不是嘛！我已經白紙黑字亮出來了，你還要在這邊強辯，還要在這邊撒謊。這審計部下去審計的結果，111年計畫就結束了，112年開始沒有在辦理該計畫，結果112年的預算書、113年的預算書繼續編根本就不存在的計畫，原民會預算書可以這樣編嗎？用幽靈的計畫來騙預算，這樣對嗎？請教主委。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們還有一些維運的計畫，所以才會這樣子編。"],["黃委員國昌：主委，我已經白紙黑字亮出來給你看了，你還繼續在臺上鬼扯，這是審計部交來的審計報告，我現在的問題很簡單，這兩年編在這一個計畫項下的錢花到什麼地方去？這是我的問題，花到哪裡去？"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為確實過去的編列不太妥當，但是就是我們有一些……"],["黃委員國昌：兩個部分，第一、你剛剛承認一件事情，我肯定你，過去的編列不太妥當，這個不是用「不太妥當」四個字就可以形容，這根本在胡搞瞎搞！計畫已經終結了，結果用幽靈計畫來騙預算，審計部的報告寫得很清楚。現在我的第二個問題是錢花到哪裡去？錢花到哪裡去牽涉到兩個年度，你編在這個計畫項下，原民會把錢花到什麼地方去？針對這件事情，一個禮拜之內給我書面回復，好嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員國昌：第三個事情跟這個有關係的是，審計部的報告上面也說原民會這樣亂搞不對，那我現在的問題來了，那接下來原民會這件事情打算要怎麼辦？就算了，反正錢都花了？錢要追回來嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是，我們現在跟審計部也在做一個檢討，也有跟……"],["黃委員國昌：需要檢討多久？這沒有什麼好檢討的啦，我老實跟你講，這個就是一個幽靈計畫，錢花到哪裡去了？一個禮拜回復我。","接下來我有一個問題是花掉的這些錢，現在要怎麼辦？要追回來嗎？還是錢花了就花了？這是我的問題。"],["曾主任委員智勇：因為我們現在也有在跟審計部說明，審計部怎麼樣來指示，或者是要我們怎麼樣檢討，我們會依照它的意思來檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：你們回文審計部了嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：回了。"],["黃委員國昌：回的內容會後可不可以提供給我？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["黃委員國昌：如果審計部要把錢追回來，你們就會把錢追回來，對不對？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對。"],["黃委員國昌：這件事情很重要。","下一個問題，卓榮泰上任以後提了幾次覆議，你知道嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：應該是5次。"],["黃委員國昌：我們上次修了原住民族委員會組織法，三讀後你們原民會發聲明說要提覆議，提了沒有？"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，這個部分我們要研議，後來我們研議的結果沒有提。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪了，聲明不是嗆得很大聲，說要提覆議？到最後也沒有提，怎麼樣？是卓榮泰不支持嗎？是院長不支持嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是，後來我們就沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛，我當然知道你客觀上沒有提嘛，我現在的問題就很清楚，奇怪！原民會是把覆議當兒戲嗎？在臉書上貼，還發了新聞稿，嗆聲嗆得很大聲，結果搞到後來虎頭蛇尾，什麼都沒有做，是你要提覆議，卓榮泰不支持嗎？說清楚啊！原民會可以這樣幹喔？"],["曾主任委員智勇：後來就是我們自己內部研議，我們研議之後就沒有提。"],["黃委員國昌：所以當初發這個聲明，然後寫臉書嗆聲，是思慮不周嗎？你內部還沒有研議完，就急著發臉書嗆聲？"],["曾主任委員智勇：不是啦，就是我們……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啊！這個臉書是假的嗎？這個新聞稿是假的嗎？我有說錯嗎？唉！我跟主委講，三思而後行，想清楚啦！不要以後讓大家不把原民會的聲明當一回事，你講了以後又沒有執行到底，讓人家看破手腳，覺得很遺憾。","接下來再請部長。"],["主席：部長有請。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，不好意思，我們那個進度我要繼續追一下，我上一次有請教你，針對集遊法修正的進程，目前進度如何？"],["劉部長世芳：目前警政署已經討論完畢，但是跟其他單位之間……"],["黃委員國昌：還需要多久？"],["劉部長世芳：可能會有困擾，因為行政院會要求我們所謂的附件裡面的禁制區域，禁制區域包括像：醫院或者是像司法機關前面這些，每個人的看法都不相同，所以其實是沒有完全……"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在行政院的立場是要繼續維持禁制區嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：現在還是需要考量禁制區，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們先一個個具體地來看，剛才你講到禁制區嘛！這個是內政部在1996年所公告的禁制區，博愛特區劃得非常大，我在地圖上全部把它框出來，這是1996年內政部公告的禁制區。從1996年到現在2025年，這個禁制區的範圍有檢討過嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：現在在檢討，但是呢……"],["黃委員國昌：現在在檢討，所以從1996年，最起碼到今天為止沒有任何變更嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：目前為止是沒有，但是我想委員非常知道，在一些相關的集會遊行活動的時候，其實我們是採取比較彈性的措施。"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是，非常嚴謹，當初馬政府時期的時候，民進黨發的新聞稿是什麼？說那是黑心版本，為什麼說那個時候提出來的是黑心版本？因為它保留禁制區嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好，再來，賴清德主張集遊法的禁制區要刪除，這是賴清德在2008年集會遊行法公聽會上代表民主進步黨黨團發表的立場，這個立場到今天是不是改變了？"],["劉部長世芳：這個立場到現在為止，所謂的「禁制區的規定予以廢除」這個事情，其實我們是有所保留，為什麼會有所保留？因為那是……"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以賴清德總統的立場改變了是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我想，賴清德總統……"],["黃委員國昌：所以賴清德總統的立場沒有改變，但是內政部有保留，是這樣嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們的保留是在於執行面會碰到困擾，我想……"],["黃委員國昌：所以當初賴清德在當立委的時候，他主張要廢除禁制區的執行面就沒有問題？"],["劉部長世芳：那個時候醫院的騷擾沒有這麼大，對於醫院等安全禁制區的騷擾沒有這麼大，時移境遷，我們覺得必須要滾動式地調整。"],["黃委員國昌：所以時空環境背景不太一樣了，賴清德立委那個時候的主張，到現在賴清德總統有改變是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：如果說我們的主張，譬如說本來是申請制，然後變成一部分的報備制，其實這就是朝著這個方向在處理。"],["黃委員國昌：對，但是我現在問的是禁制區的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：我們希望審慎的處理，而不是斷崖式的處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以那時候賴清德的主張是斷崖式的處理嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，那是他的主張，主張和處理的方式牽涉到行政部門的執行方式。行政部門的執行方式就是剛剛我跟委員報告的部分，因為你在司法區域或是相關的司法單位，因為那個不是行政部門，而是司法部門。然後行政部門包括醫院等等這些易受到騷擾或干擾到病患或是干擾到司法院處理業務的部分，這就需要比較多的時間跟他們溝通。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以你剛剛講的那些考慮，賴清德當初在主張廢除禁制區的時候都沒有想到就對了？"],["劉部長世芳：它是一個原則，我們是根據這個原則在處理。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！他當初提的原則不就是要廢除禁制區嗎？來、來、來，紅色的字，你要唸一下嗎？白紙黑字，寫得這麼清楚的東西，立場有改變就改變嘛！有轉彎就轉彎嘛！來，這個是當初2008年一路到現在，2016年那個時候，結果到現在就沒有然後了，部長說要研議，某個程度上我並不反對，但是一個法案從2016年，都是民進黨政府主政嘛！行政部門全部都是民進黨政府嘛！研議到現在2025年了，請問部長還要再研議多久？還是一樣沒有時間表，有可能一路研議到2028年？"],["劉部長世芳：我無法在這個地方跟委員做比較明確的回答，但是……"],["黃委員國昌：所以當初在提政見的時候，怎麼提都可以，真的要實現政見的時候，開始問題一堆，藉口一堆。說要研議，大家也都同意，但重點是什麼？從2016年一路研議到2025年，接下來還要再研議多久？"],["劉部長世芳：仍然會在研議當中，因為這裡面有關報備制的實務座談，或是有關它的安全距離，它確實要做實務的考量。"],["黃委員國昌：是，我知道，我瞭解，持續地研議嘛！不斷地研議嘛！現在你所講的問題，當初在2008年好像都不存在。"],["劉部長世芳：因為當時全部都是禁制區，現在我們把禁制區縮小後就要考慮安全距離。"],["黃委員國昌：你現在講的問題在2008年的時候都不存在，所以2008年的時候賴清德總統才會提出這樣的主張嘛！結果搞到現在2025年還是一模一樣嘛！彷佛你現在講的考慮2028年就都不存在一樣。一個政府開了支票就要兌現，不是拿來跳票的，一而再、再而三地研議。"],["劉部長世芳：但是開了支票要兌票是需要審慎的，因為我們是在執政，我們不希望造成人民的困擾。"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是，所以當初2008年賴清德提出這個主張就是不審慎嘛！就是不嚴謹嘛！賴清德當初提出那樣的主張就是會造成人民的困擾嘛！不是嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：主張跟正式的執政還是需要有一段的期間……"],["黃委員國昌：所以嘛！主張說的是一套嘛！真的可以做的時候就沒有要做嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，現在有在做，只是在考量要更審慎，我剛才有提到安全距離跟尺度很重要。"],["黃委員國昌：是，你們說現在有在做，從2016年做到現在已經2025年了，那大家就看你們還要持續研議多久嘛！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢。","下一位請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159286","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159286","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb870c547c1d2030da100c4df18311f68d19c9681c5de8395412974bf4722aa1b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:25:57 - 12:36:19","影片長度":"00:10:22","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T12:25:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T12:36:19+08:00","duration":622,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.342218750000001,"end":9.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.40909375,"end":11.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.547843750000002,"end":40.024718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.500343750000003,"end":20.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.65221875,"end":20.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.73659375,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.10909375,"end":45.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.74096875,"end":46.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.92659375,"end":47.415968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.415968750000005,"end":55.515968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.38909375,"end":58.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.165343750000005,"end":70.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.36159375,"end":79.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.30534375,"end":80.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.01409375,"end":82.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.04784375,"end":81.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.17846875000001,"end":90.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.42596875000001,"end":93.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.97409375000001,"end":95.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.91471875,"end":101.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.15846875000001,"end":108.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.00971875,"end":110.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.76034375,"end":114.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.24096875000001,"end":115.64159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.74721875,"end":116.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.46846875000001,"end":117.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.48534375000001,"end":117.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.81846875000001,"end":118.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.85221875,"end":122.37471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.77534375,"end":124.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.63596875,"end":126.18846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.44159375000001,"end":135.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.68909375,"end":141.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.44346875000002,"end":144.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.22346875,"end":145.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.84784375,"end":146.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.38346875000002,"end":148.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.61534375000002,"end":152.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.49221875,"end":154.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.03221875,"end":157.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.99784375000002,"end":160.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.56284375,"end":161.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.43596875,"end":167.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.20721875,"end":168.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.73034375,"end":172.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.93221875,"end":173.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.50159375,"end":176.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.10034375,"end":180.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.45846875,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.71159375000002,"end":181.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.97721875000002,"end":199.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start"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主席謝謝 麻煩請劉世芳部長跟我們勞動部次長劉部長 理事長有請"},{"start":15.059,"end":37.529,"text":"本席今天早上提案說明其實也開宗明義講得非常清楚我相信您一定都有聽到我想在針對今天召委所排定的這個不管是國定假日相關的一個修法其實我們要的是兩個部分第一法制化我們的一個修法第二我們也希望是能夠來符合國情以及符合照顧全體同仁的一個"},{"start":38.549,"end":55.354,"text":"誠意來努力那您剛也提到很多的委員的這個答詢裡面就行政部門跟立法部門這邊要取得共識嘛 對不對是的好 共識非常重要所以我相信共識絕對不是說是鐵板一塊或是說絕對不是說著是而今非這一點你認同吧"},{"start":57.912,"end":79.535,"text":"當然啊認同嗎好來我先請教剛剛有提到是說勞動部這邊有揭露的這個全國際工時比較裡面OECD的這個比較勞動部次長您有提到你們這邊有列出來是說全國主要國家裡面我們台灣的人均工時是第五高亞洲主要國家第二高僅次於新加坡對吧"},{"start":81.097,"end":101.273,"text":"所以說對於我們這邊來講的話給予勞工正向的一個支持並且來減輕勞工的一個工時條件這是不是應該是我們勞動部努力的方向是 我們勞動部一貫是希望這樣好 那請教一下勞動部今天我們針對我們的這個提案裡面勞動部你們的立場是什麼"},{"start":102.839,"end":122.171,"text":"針對個別委員的一個版本裡面你們針對於不管是恢復勞工七天假或者是說現在勞工一年國定假日幾天國定假日剛那個劉部長上午有講你不會勞動部如果是勞工的話12天是12天勞工的話11天對勞動部不要說還有勞工的國定假日還要問內政部好不好"},{"start":123.797,"end":149.935,"text":"要加一天好來那請教一下你們今天的一個報告裡面針對勞工剛剛已經開中名義講啦OECD裡面的國家裡面我們全台台灣是平均人均工時第二高亞洲國家第二高那我們勞動部對於委員提案要幫勞工多爭取一些國定假日的立場你們今天的報告是什麼你們立場是什麼我們認為要通盤檢討各行業的工時狀況營運模式好"},{"start":153.51,"end":171.715,"text":"那減少加班工時我們認為是更重要的途徑那至於國定價的調整這個要通盤檢討通盤檢討這一個今天部長沒有來但是在這個報告出來之前有沒有跟部長討論過當然有當然有嘛那你知道部長之前的態度跟立場是什麼嗎"},{"start":172.981,"end":188.96,"text":"部長在委員的時代可能因為那時候我是去年底才到勞動部服務的去年這不重要啊但是你說你今天報告來的時候你有跟部長討論過啊那部長的立場跟態度是什麼"},{"start":190.041,"end":207.602,"text":"總是他不會濁世驚飛吧不會因為以前他當紅委員的時候他覺得是說要增加價結果現在當紅部長的時候他就覺得說不應該鐵板一塊早上我在一開始部會報告的時候我就有提我們農業部的立場就各行業的營運模式不曉得我現在問的是部長的立場是什麼知不知道"},{"start":208.303,"end":233.886,"text":"你已經 你剛先講了 你有討論過早上我們報告的內 我報告的內容就代表勞工部也代表那個洪部長他都已經看過了是 對那但是部長之前的立場 來我們看一下來 下一張來洪森漢委員在第十屆委員的時候他共同提案希望能夠增加勞工三天的國定假日啊他要增加哪三天 知道嗎"},{"start":234.929,"end":259.14,"text":"不知道嘛 因為你剛剛講的是說勞動部的立場是跟紅部長討論過結果紅部長給出的這個勞動部的報告裡面是鐵板一塊不增加 沒有增加任何一天其實本席早上開宗明義我早上就已經報告過 勞動部認為這個是有討論空間的是嘛 有討論空間嘛 但重點是為什麼之前的紅委員他提出來是說要增加三天假嘛"},{"start":260.465,"end":280.785,"text":"這沒有矛盾這哪裡沒有矛盾因為我們早上已經講我們早上部委會有討論空間市長說實在話有討論空間跟說要不要增加本席也支持啊本席也支持是說我們要減輕加班時數我們要增加勞工權益我們要增加不管是這個相關的薪資這不衝突嗎是這不衝突吧當然"},{"start":283.047,"end":306.204,"text":"對啊 好 當然你既然回答當然本席就事論事我很心平氣和 理直氣順跟你討論的是說我們不需要看到雙重標準本席今天早上提案說明也講了很多委員有版本但是到最後我們可以互相溝通討論但是如果說你不本於科學立場以及數據的話那我覺得說這樣子就變成是說行政部門只是在硬拗來 看一下"},{"start":307.737,"end":325.577,"text":"紅委員當時有提案一個版本連署三個版本其中他自己的提案裡面從原本勞工的國定假日12天要增加三天變成15天而其中增加的就是全國客家日、原住民族日跟國際移民日三天"},{"start":326.923,"end":347.752,"text":"他也有連署連署最多的版本是要增加六天到從十二天變成十八天增加的有包括全國客家日、原住民族日、國際移民日消防節、警察節跟軍人節等六天所以換言之過去洪森翰委員部長在擔任委員的時候他認為說應該調整那個時候民進黨獨大"},{"start":353.37,"end":369.082,"text":"國會過半了民進黨如果說想推的話早就推過了 碾壓沒有推但至少這是歷史的紀錄留下來代表說他那個時候說認為可以幫勞工爭取一些應有的權益"},{"start":370.37,"end":393.28,"text":"結果到現在當了部長之後今天拿出來的報告勞動部的報告請大家齊文共賞一下去看一下勞動部的報告是先開中秘議講各行各業不同那如果說各行各業不同業務沒有辦法做得到的話那請到現在放假怎麼辦那結果鐵板一塊到最後沒有要增加任何一天"},{"start":395.538,"end":409.049,"text":"黃委員早上我已經多次口頭報告市長你多次口頭報告但是又沒有回答到本席現在的問題嘛所以你早上的報告不管你講一百遍你的答案沒有辦法跟本席的問題連結在一起你就是一個無效的溝通啊來 部長是學姐啦學姐所以"},{"start":413.069,"end":435.625,"text":"不苛責但是部長我覺得說剛剛因為你跟劉雪婷召委也有針對說五一勞動節的部分其實我覺得我們最有共識各委員版本以及過去民進黨委員也提出的版本裡面針對五一勞動節是希望是全國一致性的放假那也會讓整個社會比較平穩的能夠推動運行順暢"},{"start":438.288,"end":466.18,"text":"那部長現在我們有很多委員提出的版本是說是不是五一勞動節能夠一致全國一致適用放假您怎麼看我剛已經回答過了就是說第一個他要分不同的層次五一勞動節本來勞動者就放假那你變成是全國的軍公教要不要一起放假的話呢這個必須要讓行政院跟行政人士總署還有勞動部還有內部一起討論因為討論滿久了全國一致性你怎麼看但是如果今天就定案的話就表示我們都沒有共識"},{"start":466.8,"end":485.029,"text":"因為沒有人會認為只有五一勞動節是全國放假很多人就是剛剛所說的大家都舉出OECD大家都舉出工時過長所以勞動部他現在解決是相當多是勞動工時的問題我可是在五一勞動節全國一致這個意思但是五一勞動節對於勞動部來講他已經解決了勞動節有沒有放假的問題是那本身跟你討論的是全國一致的問題啊是所以我說如果今天就定案的話是表示沒有共識不是"},{"start":496.701,"end":517.379,"text":"部長您沒有聽清楚本席的問題我再問一次我講的是說勞工現在已經12天有包含五一勞動節放假但是軍公教以及其他的人員沒有放五一勞動節但是很多人會覺得說五一勞動節其實因為全國沒有一致放假而造成說可能各行各業有不同的一些困擾"},{"start":518.16,"end":546.321,"text":"那很多從第九屆第十屆到現在第十一屆都有討論是說是不是要全國一致性我想過去有一些民進黨的委員或者是官員也都對於這件事情其實是正向看待那我們現在只是討論說就全國一致性您認為有沒有這個空間我們也是正向看待但是過去五屆的立法委員都沒有做成共識是表示有很多議題還沒有討論到定案您自己的想法呢我們保持開放的態度可以來討論您自己的想法呢"},{"start":546.621,"end":557.6,"text":"各位委員所提出來的從一天到九天都有我們沒有提出我們自己我們沒有提出行政院的版本我只是講五一勞動節全國一致您自己的想法怎麼看"},{"start":558.362,"end":584.722,"text":"我們支持現在的五一勞動節是勞工放假因為這個是勞動部他們自己根據他們自己在我們的假日實施辦法裡面所提出來的那全國一致的部分全國一致就是全國軍公教要不要放假不是內政部來做決定我剛提到了要有人事行政總署跟勞動部跟相關的部會讓行政院來做決定部長這樣講完來看一下部長在第九屆的時候他連署的提案"},{"start":586.168,"end":610.461,"text":"劉士芳委員當時還在立法院的時候認為要全國國定假日一致因為這是蔡英文總統的決策協調會議裡面的才是而劉士芳委員就我連署她認為應該要全體一體適用包括五一勞動節但現在剛剛部長的回答很顯然跟第九屆劉士芳委員的想法不一致謝謝"},{"start":611.001,"end":621.535,"text":"那時候的提案是可討論但是因為沒有過所以藉其不續審可討論但是你的立場是這樣嗎藉其不續審你的立場是這樣嗎是的好 謝謝好 謝謝洪峰凱委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":987,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時26分）主席謝謝，麻煩請劉世芳部長跟勞動部次長。"],["主席：劉部長、李次長有請。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長。"],["劉部長世芳：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席今天早上提案說明，其實也開宗明義講得非常清楚，我相信你一定都有聽到，在針對今天召委所排定的，不管是國定假日相關的一個修法，我們要的是兩個部分：第一，法制化我們的一個修法；第二，我們也希望能夠符合國情，以及符合照顧全體同仁的權益來努力，您剛剛也提到很多委員答詢裡面就行政部門跟立法部門要取得共識，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：共識，非常重要，所以我相信共識絕對不是鐵板一塊，或者絕對不是昨是而今非，這一點你認同吧？"],["劉部長世芳：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：認同嘛，我先請教剛剛有提到勞動部這邊有揭露國際工時比較裡面，OECD的比較，勞動部次長提到全國主要國家裡面，臺灣的人均工時是第5高，亞洲主要國家第2高，僅次於新加坡，對吧？"],["李次長健鴻：是，跟OECD比的話。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以對於我們這邊來講，給予勞工正向的一個支持，並且減輕勞工的工時條件，這是不是勞動部應該努力的方向？"],["李次長健鴻：是，我們勞動部一貫是希望這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，請教一下勞動部，今天我們針對這個提案，勞動部，你們的立場是什麼？針對個別委員版本，不管是恢復勞工7天假，或者是說……現在勞工一年國定假日幾天？"],["李次長健鴻：國定假日，剛劉部長上午有講，如果是勞工的話12天。"],["劉部長世芳：12天。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，12天。"],["李次長健鴻：非勞工的話11天。"],["洪委員孟楷：勞動部不要勞工的國定假日還要問內政部，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：要加1天。"],["李次長健鴻：要加1天。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，請教一下，你們今天的報告，針對勞工，剛剛已經開宗明義講了，OECD的國家，臺灣是平均人均工時第2高，亞洲國家第2高，勞動部對於委員提案要幫勞工多爭取一些國定假日的立場，你們今天的報告立場是什麼？"],["李次長健鴻：我們認為要通盤檢討各行業的工時狀況、營運模式。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以？"],["李次長健鴻：減少加班工時我們認為是更重要的途徑，至於國定假的調整，這個要通盤檢討。"],["洪委員孟楷：通盤檢討。"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：今天部長沒有來，但是在這個報告出來之前，有沒有跟部長討論過？"],["李次長健鴻：當然有。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然有，你知道部長之前的態度跟立場是什麼嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：部長在委員的時代，因為那時候……我是去年底才到勞動部服務。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，去年這不重要，但是你說你今天報告來的時候，你有跟部長討論過。"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長的立場跟態度是什麼？"],["李次長健鴻：部長的立場……"],["洪委員孟楷：他不會昨是今非吧。"],["李次長健鴻：不會。"],["洪委員孟楷：不會以前他當洪委員的時候，他覺得要增加假，結果現在當洪部長的時候，他就覺得不應該，鐵板一塊。"],["李次長健鴻：跟委員報告，早上我在一開始部會報告的時候，我就有提了勞動部的立場，就各行業的營運模式、工作狀況……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，我在問的是部長的立場是什麼？知不知道？剛剛你已經先講了，你有討論過。"],["李次長健鴻：早上我報告的內容就代表勞動部，也代表洪部長，他都已經看過。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，但是部長之前的立場，我們看一下，下一張，洪申翰委員在第10屆委員的時候共同提案，希望能夠增加勞工3天的國定假日，他要增加哪3天知道嗎？不知道，因為你剛剛講的是說勞動部的立場是跟洪部長討論過，結果洪部長給出的勞動部報告裡面是鐵板一塊，不增加，沒有增加任何一天。"],["李次長健鴻：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實本席早上開宗明義……"],["李次長健鴻：我早上就已經報告過，勞動部認為這個是有討論空間。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，有討論空間，但重點是為什麼之前的洪委員提出要增加3天假，這個你沒有辦法自圓其說。"],["李次長健鴻：這沒有矛盾。"],["洪委員孟楷：這哪裡沒有矛盾？"],["李次長健鴻：因為我們早上已經講勞動部認為有討論空間。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，說實在話，有討論空間，跟要不要增加，本席也支持我們要減輕加班時數，要增加勞工權益、相關的薪資，這不衝突，這不衝突吧？"],["李次長健鴻：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：你既然回答當然，本席就事論事，我很心平氣和、理直氣順跟你討論我們不需要看到雙重標準。本席今天早上提案說明也講了，很多委員有版本，但是到最後我們可以互相溝通討論，但是如果你不本於科學立場以及數據的話，我覺得變成是說行政部只是在硬拗。","看一下，洪委員當時有提案一個版本、連署三個版本，其中他自己的提案裡面，從原本勞工的國定假日12天要增加3天變成15天，而其中增加的就是全國客家日、原住民族日跟國際移民日3天；他也有連署，連署最多的版本是要增加6天，到從12天變成18天，增加的有包括全國客家日、原住民族日、國際移民日、消防節、警察節跟軍人節等6天。所以換言之，過去洪申翰委員，部長在擔任委員的時候，他認為說應該調整，那時候民進黨獨大，國會過半，民進黨如果說想推的話，早就推過了，輾壓，沒有推，但至少這是歷史的紀錄，留下來代表他那個時候認為可以幫勞工爭取一些應有的權益，結果到現在當了部長之後，今天拿出來勞動部的報告，請大家奇文共賞，去看一下勞動部的報告是先開宗明義講各行各業不同，如果各行各業不同業務沒有辦法中斷的話，請教現在放假怎麼辦？結果鐵板一塊，到最後沒有要增加任何一天。"],["李次長健鴻：洪委員，早上我已經多次口頭報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，你多次口頭報告，但都沒有回答到本席現在的問題，所以你早上的報告，不管你講100遍，你的答案沒有辦法跟本席的問題連結在一起，你就是一個無效的溝通。","部長是學姐，學姐所以不苛責，但是部長，我覺得說剛剛因為你跟牛煦庭召委也有針對五一勞動節的部分，其實我覺得我們最有共識，各委員版本以及過去民進黨委員也提出的版本裡面，針對五一勞動節是希望是全國一致性的放假，也會讓整個社會比較平穩地能夠推動、運行順暢，部長，現在我們有很多委員提出的版本是不是五一勞動節能夠全國一致適用放假？您怎麼看？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛已經回答過了，第一個，有分不同的層次，五一勞動節本來勞動者就放假。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["劉部長世芳：變成是全國的軍公教要不要一起放假的話，這個必須要讓行政院跟人事行政總處還有勞動部……"],["洪委員孟楷：因為討論滿久了，全國一致性，你怎麼看？"],["劉部長世芳：但是如果今天就定案的話，就表示我們都沒有共識，因為沒有人會認為只有五一勞動節是全國放假，很多人就是剛剛所說的，大家都舉出OECD、大家都舉出工時過長，所以勞動部它現在解決相當多是勞動工時的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，我們現在是focus在五一勞動節全國一致這一個議題。"],["劉部長世芳：但是五一勞動節對於勞動部來講……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是比較簡單，也比較單純……"],["劉部長世芳：它已經解決了勞動節有沒有放假的問題，這個提出來的層次不太一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，本席跟你討論的是全國一致的問題。"],["劉部長世芳：所以我說如果今天就定案的話，是表示沒有共識。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，部長，您沒有聽清楚本席的問題，我再問一次，我講的是說，勞工現在已經12天，有包含五一勞動節放假，但是軍公教以及其他的人員沒有放五一勞動節，但是很多人會覺得五一勞動節因為全國沒有一致放假，而造成可能各行各業有不同的一些困擾，從第9、10屆到現在第11屆都有討論是不是要全國一致性，我想過去有一些民進黨的委員或者是官員也都對於這件事情是正向看待，我們只是在討論就全國一致性，有沒有這個空間？"],["劉部長世芳：我們也是正向看待，但是過去5屆的立法委員都沒有做成共識，表示有很多議題還沒有討論定案。"],["洪委員孟楷：那您自己的想法咧？"],["劉部長世芳：我們保持開放的態度來討論，但是各位委員所提出來的，從1天到9天都有，我們沒有提出我們自己……我們沒有提出行政院的版本……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你看你又要扯其他，我只是講五一勞動節全國一致，您自己的想法怎麼看？"],["劉部長世芳：我們支持現在的五一勞動節是勞工放假，因為這個是勞動部根據假日實施辦法所提出來的。"],["洪委員孟楷：那全國一致的部分？"],["劉部長世芳：全國一致就是全國軍公教要不要放假，不是內政部來做決定，我剛剛提到了，要有人事行政總處、勞動部跟相關部會，讓行政院來做決定。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長這樣講完，來看一下部長在第9屆的時候連署的提案，劉世芳委員當時還在立法院的時候，認為全國國定假日要一致，因為這是蔡英文總統在決策協調會議裡面的裁示，而劉世芳委員就有連署，他認為應該要全體一體適用，包括五一勞動節，但剛剛部長的回答，很顯然跟第9屆劉世芳委員的想法不一致，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：那時候的提案是可討論，但是因為沒有過，所以屆期不續審。"],["洪委員孟楷：可討論，但是你的立場是這樣嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：屆期不續審。"],["洪委員孟楷：你的立場是這樣嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","下一位請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159285","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159285","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb8e83641d1651721c100c4df18311f68d19c9681c5de83954f7e81291b4dfc0de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:07:09 - 12:19:30","影片長度":"00:12:21","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T12:07:09+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T12:19:30+08:00","duration":741,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.020968750000002,"end":13.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.46346875,"end":14.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.711593750000002,"end":22.086593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.082843750000002,"end":20.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.57596875,"end":28.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.140968750000003,"end":25.984718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.094093750000003,"end":28.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.718468750000003,"end":28.887218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.44346875,"end":46.369718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.33159375,"end":48.057218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.221593750000004,"end":57.659093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.862218750000004,"end":53.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.92034375,"end":61.236593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.98784375,"end":60.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.236593750000004,"end":63.008468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.37159375,"end":61.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.31221875000001,"end":67.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.85159375,"end":86.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.39284375000001,"end":91.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.88159375000001,"end":92.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.45096875,"end":94.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.75034375,"end":96.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.84284375,"end":109.73534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.56221875000001,"end":112.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.73034375,"end":125.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.56409375000001,"end":125.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.50909375,"end":126.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.52596875,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.55971875,"end":129.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.30596875,"end":131.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.45784375,"end":133.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.97221875,"end":135.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.35596875000002,"end":134.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.43159375000002,"end":143.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.06346875,"end":144.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.92409375,"end":151.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.50596875000002,"end":147.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.48409375,"end":159.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.95534375,"end":170.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.72159375,"end":171.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.71721875,"end":173.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.01221875000002,"end":188.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.40659375,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.84096875,"end":191.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.76471875000001,"end":196.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.61596875,"end":202.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.24846875,"end":221.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.15909375,"end":206.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.13971875000001,"end":222.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.89471875,"end":266.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.28471875,"end":266.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.94284375,"end":271.06034375},{"speaker":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謝謝主席 本席有請劉部長劉部長有請徐委員好勞動部的次長李次長有請一起 謝謝"},{"start":34.858,"end":57.232,"text":"請教部長還有次長去年也就上個會期我們有辦紀念日及假日的公聽會我不知道那天都是次長來還是部長您有在嗎?我們內政部是一位次長來代表是吳長次嗎?不是那勞動部那一天是誰?"},{"start":60.069,"end":86.322,"text":"那也是我們勞工部常識的是常識 好 OK那沒關係這個但是機關代表都有到嘛這個我們今天討論這個紀念日跟假日當然前面很多委員很多相關議題都討論了那本席想要請教部長還有次長的就是說我們都看到台灣的總工時當然剛剛針對什麼勞工還我七天假這個假設我們先撇開不講"},{"start":87.458,"end":112.583,"text":"整個台灣的總工時跟OECD國家這個的總工時差距了多少這個就去年2023已經變前年了去年還沒有出來這是勞動部還有OECD官網的數字你們知道差距多少嗎部長你知道嗎部長不知道那次長你知道嗎"},{"start":116.139,"end":131.471,"text":"就是我們平均一年的總工時台灣在2023年供OECD國家的總工時差距多少你直接回答我時間不多你知道嗎OECD各國的連總工時也不一樣平均總工時"},{"start":136.479,"end":142.586,"text":"好 沒關係 那我來講OECD國家它一年就是1742個小時這是平均啊對對對對那台灣是2020嘛 2020所以這樣差起來是278個小時"},{"start":151.656,"end":161.247,"text":"所以站在這樣的一個立場但是呢OECD平均它人均所得在2023年是46724美元那我們台灣是32442美元所以我想請教劉部長跟我們這個"},{"start":172.115,"end":196.532,"text":"李次長那你們是不是認同就是說其實即便勞工應該說我們勞動人口我們如果台灣價多其實對整個的GDP或是影響是不是一個有直接性的就是說不會放假多我們的GDP就弱吧這點你們認同吧"},{"start":199.009,"end":222.631,"text":"我們認為各行業的狀況確實不一樣對對對我沒有再跟你進入細節因為各行業有差別嘛那OECD國家他難道沒有各行業嗎也有嘛那我剛剛也聽到就是說部長也回那個劉部長也回答很多委員就是說好那有一些大企業歸大企業但中小企業要照顧我們都認同那但是"},{"start":224.019,"end":243.268,"text":"世界各國還有很多先進國家他也都有很多中小企業啊所以我想這個應該不是主要的原因應該是在於剛剛部長你也有講現在要整合嘛對不對我們要整合現在大家有這樣的一個共識包含民調也"},{"start":244.448,"end":270.897,"text":"這個有60幾%將近七成的民眾都希望我們應該可以當然剛剛部長講說這個有很多版本加起來有二三十天的假其實我相信大家一定不是希望這樣而是說在現有的基礎上我們是不是可以增加嘛我們可以增加一天兩天三天所以這個部分部長你認同吧雖然你們還在凝聚共識吧"},{"start":272.639,"end":288.821,"text":"那個委員你提的版本是五天不是啦不是啦我是說那五天都是大家期望我們民意代表嘛我不是說要放五天啦我們可以漸進式嘛你看先放一天兩天也可以啊"},{"start":289.321,"end":314.121,"text":"我想委員的想法非常的好你都還記得每個委員提幾天你們有做表格因為這樣子所以如果說我們的立法院的各個提案的版本能夠針對剛剛委員所提到的不堅持自己要提案的多少天數為主慢慢就會有共識出來但是目前我所聽到的很多人都很堅持自己的部分我想說"},{"start":316.443,"end":342.153,"text":"也就是我刚所说的如果说立法院跟行政系统这边有一定共识的话那我们就很快可以去拟定出来未来的方向那我们会按照这样子的方向来去对很好所以我们其实应该就说大家朝向说我们现在的工时比OECD国家这个平均真的多太多了所以我们其实可以"},{"start":342.913,"end":372.093,"text":"朝向譬如說增多放一天兩天我們先這樣逐步來推進所以本席馬上看到的就是說民調最高的就是勞動節那勞動節現在勞工已經放假只剩下軍公教那剛剛劉部長也說這個目的事業主管機關那些其實現在就這個執政黨就是我們民進黨所以從行政院到人事行政總署到內政部到勞動部其實你們可以盡快有共識"},{"start":373.273,"end":401.2,"text":"五一而且现在就是只剩军工架你要不要给他放那这个应该可以尽快的来拟定共识那再来就是我们现在针对这个我不知道我拿到的数据也许有很多人做但都差不多至少前四名好像大家都差不多那我这边第二名是行宪纪念日第三名是教师节再来第四名台湾光复节所以在这样的情况下"},{"start":402.08,"end":430.378,"text":"是不是我们也可以朝向这个比如像教师节我们对老师的这个理解跟尊重还有尊师重道那当然很多人会讲其实每个节日大家都有一个理由嘛那但是呢其实现在的社会其实老师真的是很辛苦这个时代的变化再加上我们也发现其实教育对台湾来说真的非常非常重要那教育工作者"},{"start":430.838,"end":447.808,"text":"我們怎麼樣來對他的尊重所以是不是可以考慮這個教師節那至於行獻紀念日跟光復節那這就是對我們的這種歷史的意義還有歷史的尊重這個部分所以本席希望我們勞動部還有內政部這邊"},{"start":450.209,"end":474.591,"text":"是不是像刚刚部长也有讲我们不要说对啊这个大家都坚持但是我们可以就最有共识的还有民调其实劳动部跟内政部都可以去做一下民调你们自己做的也许你更相信然后你看看民众的需求那再来就是其实我们刚刚一开始提出来的"},{"start":475.111,"end":502.295,"text":"那我們要跟世界先進國家我們要一起努力嘛所以民眾台灣這個經濟奇蹟就是我們所有民眾還有甚至我們勞工朋友大家共同努力的但是更好的生活品質更多的休閒我相信會讓他們在工作上願意付出更多所以從這個角度出發所以我們希望內政部勞動部這裡跟我們行政院這裡可以"},{"start":502.715,"end":526.773,"text":"朝向这个方向来给我们这个纪念日跟假日呢我们逐步的来推进一天两天三天这个希望我们今年可以有一个共识那明年呢大家可以欢喜的放假那我们更希望我们因为有了很好的假期休闲那我们的整个的产值我们整个的GDP可以更高好不好可以吗部长今年可以努力吧"},{"start":528.875,"end":547.353,"text":"現在已經在努力了報告委員我們現在努力可是您剛講的一天兩天三天可以討論可是你剛講就四天了啊不是啦那我四天我沒有堅持我已經四天我都很努力在聽你講這部分對對對我說四天是說民調有這四天嘛那但是你看一天兩天你們就開始"},{"start":548.194,"end":560.922,"text":"有一些作為出來民眾就會感受到對你有重視到我們台灣的工時過長我們開始逐步的減少推進增加大家的放假休閒嘛部長可以嗎可以吧"},{"start":562.573,"end":568.877,"text":"剛剛有提到我們盡量趕快有共識出來那不好意思最後我再佔用一分鐘的時間請次長回座部長我們現在有一個問題在102年的時候那時候第八屆本席當第八屆立委的時候那時候陳其邁委員他提案刪除了當時中央行政單位從行政院到各部會首長副首長的特別費"},{"start":591.129,"end":613.708,"text":"三減他提案三一半最後立法院決議是三二十五趴這樣一三就是十幾年那在隔年一百零三年的時候那個主計總處他就發了一個公文就要求地方行政單位行政機關的首長副首長要比照那這個"},{"start":615.049,"end":630.993,"text":"我們會覺得不合理因為立法院因為中央行政單位的經費是立法院在監督制衡但實際上縣市政府或者是鄉鎮市公所他們是有代表會跟縣市議會在監督所以"},{"start":633.414,"end":655.966,"text":"用一個什麼共同性費用編列基準好像不是那麼恰當所以這樣一山就十一年現在地方鄉鎮市長有這個聲音是不是就是可以恢復鄉鎮市長的可以恢復當然我知道這個足跡總署還有內政部所以這一塊是不是可以請部長"},{"start":657.326,"end":679.137,"text":"因為我們已經有問過主席總書希望內政部可以主動提出來所以本席不好意思用一點點時間部長您認為呢就是說我們鄉鎮市長他的特別費你給代表會他去決議就好你沒有必要說我現在立法院三中央部會的你就拉地方首長來你一起跟我一樣"},{"start":681.259,"end":690.527,"text":"我對當時的提案不是那麼了解但是行政院大概人事行政總署跟主計總署那時候國民黨執政嘛國民黨官方執政陳其邁委員就刪嘛一般共同性的這個包括這個預算的處理原則啦那地方自住法裡面當然是內政部由負責來督導"},{"start":700.436,"end":708.381,"text":"那是不是讓我們有一點時間來瞭解一下這個狀況因為目前一個月內可以回覆我先來瞭解一下那個狀況因為目前我們114年很多特資費也都被刪掉了如果按照我現在講的是公則嘛所以有鄉鎮公所可能也會在保養所以我現在先按照就是行政院的主計總處跟我們人總裡面的共通性的刪減原則那個特別針對地方不要拿地方來"},{"start":730.275,"end":737.123,"text":"現在中央歸中央是不是有漢格的地方我來了解一下然後我會盡快跟委員來做回覆好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":921,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時7分）謝謝主席，本席有請劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：勞動部次長是不是也一起？"],["主席：李次長有請。"],["徐委員欣瑩：一起，謝謝。請教部長還有次長，我們在去年、上個會期有辦紀念日及假日的公聽會，我不知道那天是次長來還是……部長，您有在嗎？您沒有在。"],["劉部長世芳：我們內政部是一位次長來代表。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是吳常次嗎？不是，好，OK，那勞動部那一天是誰？"],["李次長健鴻：那時候也是我們勞動部常次。"],["徐委員欣瑩：常次，好，OK。沒關係，但是機關代表都有到，我們今天討論紀念日跟假日，當然前面有很多委員針對很多相關議題都討論了，本席想要請教部長還有次長的是，我們都看到臺灣的總工時，針對剛剛勞工「還我7天假」的假設先撇開不講，整個臺灣的總工時跟OECD國家的總工時差距多少？去年的資料還沒有出來，針對2023（前）年勞動部還有OECD官網的數字，你們知道差距多少嗎？部長你知道嗎？部長不知道，那次長你知道嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：委員是說那個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：就是我們平均一年的總工時，2023年臺灣跟OECD國家的總工時差距多少？"],["李次長健鴻：是，我們……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你直接回答，我時間不多，你知道嗎？不知道喔？"],["李次長健鴻：OECD各國的年總工時也不一樣。"],["徐委員欣瑩：平均啦，平均總工時。好，沒關係，我來講，OECD國家一年是1,742個小時。"],["李次長健鴻：這是平均啦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，臺灣是2,020嘛……"],["李次長健鴻：2,020。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以這樣相差是278個小時，站在這樣的立場……但是OECD人均所得在2023年是4萬6,724美元，那我們臺灣是3萬2,442美元，所以我想請教劉部長跟李次長，你們是不是認同以勞動人口來說，如果臺灣假多，其實對整個GDP不會有直接性的影響？就是說不會因為放假多，我們的GDP就弱，這點你們認同嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：我們認為各行業的狀況確實不一樣……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對，我沒有要進入細節，確實各行業有差別，難道OECD國家沒有各行業嗎？也有。剛剛聽到劉部長回答很多委員時說，大企業歸大企業，但中小企業也要照顧，這點我們認同，不過世界各國及很多先進國家也都有很多中小企業，所以我想這應該不是主要原因。剛剛部長也有講，現在要整合，對不對？我們要整合，現在大家有這樣的共識，民調也有六十幾趴，將近七成的民眾都希望，所以應該可以。剛剛部長說有很多版本，加起來有二、三十天的假，其實我相信大家一定不是希望這樣，而是在現有基礎上，是不是可以增加一天、兩天或三天？這個部分部長你認同吧？雖然你們還在凝聚共識。"],["劉部長世芳：委員提的版本是五天……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，我是說那五天都是……"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，所以你現在講到……"],["徐委員欣瑩：都是大家期望，我們是民意代表，但我不是說要放五天。我們可以採漸進式，先放一天、兩天也可以。"],["劉部長世芳：委員的想法非常好……"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長不錯，都還記得每個委員提幾天。"],["劉部長世芳：我們有做功課。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們有做？你們有做表格？OK。"],["劉部長世芳：如果立法院各個提案版本能夠像剛剛委員所提到的，不堅持自己提案的多少天數為主，那麼慢慢就會有共識出來……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["劉部長世芳：但目前我所聽到的，很多人都很堅持自己所提的部分……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係、沒關係……"],["劉部長世芳：如同我剛剛所說的，如果立法院跟行政系統有一定共識的話，我們很快就可以擬定出未來的方向……"],["徐委員欣瑩：很好。"],["劉部長世芳：我們會依照這樣的方向來趨於一致……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們當然希望能形成共識，很好。我們現在的工時比OECD國家的平均多太多了，所以我們其實可以朝向多放一天、兩天，先這樣逐步來推進。本席看到民調最高的就是勞動節，勞動節現在勞工已經放假，只剩下軍公教。剛剛劉部長也說目的事業主管機關……現在的執政黨就是民進黨，從行政院、人事行政總處、內政部到勞動部，其實你們可以儘快取得共識，現在五一只剩軍公教沒放，你們要不要放？這個應該可以儘快擬定共識。","再來，現在針對……這也許有很多人做，但其實都差不多，至少前四名好像都差不多。我拿到的數據顯示，第二名是行憲紀念日，第三名是教師節，第四名臺灣光復節。在這樣的情況下，是不是我們也可以朝向……譬如教師節，基於對老師的理解、尊重及尊師重道？很多人會講，每個節日都有一個理由，不過在現在的社會中，老師真的很辛苦，要隨著時代變化，我們也發現教育對臺灣來說真的非常、非常重要，所以我們該如何對教育工作者表示尊重？是不是可以考慮教師節？至於行憲紀念日跟光復節，這對我們來說就是歷史的意義及歷史的尊重。本席希望勞動部、內政部是不是如同剛剛部長所講，雖然大家都有堅持，但可以就最有共識的及民調，其實勞動部跟內政部可以去做一下民調，你們自己做的也許你會更相信，然後再看看民眾的需求。","我們剛剛一開始就提出，我們要跟上世界先進國家，所以我們要一起努力。臺灣的經濟奇蹟就是我們所有民眾及我們勞工朋友大家共同努力的，所以給予更好的生活品質、更多的休閒，相信會讓他們在工作上願意付出更多。從這個角度出發，我們希望內政部、勞動部能跟行政院朝這個方向逐步推動恢復紀念日跟假日，從一天、兩天、三天開始，希望今年可以有共識，明年大家可以歡喜地放假！更希望因為有了很好的休閒假期，我們整個產值、GDP可以更高，好不好？可以嗎，部長？今年可以努力吧？"],["劉部長世芳：我們現在就……"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在已經在努力了？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我們現在在努力，您剛講的一天、兩天、三天是可以討論，可是你剛講四天了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是！四天那個我沒有堅持……"],["劉部長世芳：我很努力在聽你講。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對、對，我說的四天是指民調有這四天，但先從一天、兩天開始，若你們也有一些作為出來，民眾就會感受到：對！你有重視臺灣工時過長的問題，開始逐步減少，推進、增加大家的放假休閒，部長，可以嗎？可以吧？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛有提到，我們會儘量、趕快有共識出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：儘量、趕快。不好意思，最後我再占用一分鐘的時間，請次長回座。","部長，現在有一個問題。在102年本席當第8屆立委時，陳其邁委員提案刪除了當時中央行政單位，從行政院到各部會首長、副首長的特別費。他提案刪一半，最後立法院決議刪25%，這一刪就是十幾年！隔年（103年），主計總處發了一個公文，要求地方行政單位、行政機關首長、副首長要比照。我們覺得這個不合理，因為中央行政單位的經費由立法院監督制衡，但縣市政府或鄉鎮市公所則由代表會與縣市議會監督，用共同性費用編列基準好像不是那麼恰當，但這樣一刪就是十一年！現在地方鄉鎮市長有這個聲音，是不是可以讓鄉鎮市長的恢復？當然，我知道這與主計總處、內政部有關，這一塊是不是可以請部長……我們已經問過主計總處，主計總處希望內政部可以主動提出，所以本席不好意思用一點點時間請教部長，部長您認為呢？鄉鎮市長的特別費由代表會決議就好，沒有必要因為立法院刪中央部會的，就拉地方首長一起來跟我一樣！這一塊你的……"],["劉部長世芳：我對當時的提案不是那麼了解，但行政院人事行政總處跟主計總處……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那時候是國民黨執政，陳其邁委員就刪……"],["劉部長世芳：一般共同性的預算處理原則，以地方制度法來說，當然是由內政部負責督導，所以是不是讓我們有一點時間來了解狀況？因為目前……"],["徐委員欣瑩：1個月內可以回復本席嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我先來了解一下狀況，因為114年很多特支費也都被刪掉了，如果按照……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，我現在講的是通則……"],["劉部長世芳：其他的鄉鎮公所可能也會……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我是在為地方講話……"],["劉部長世芳：我知道，所以現在先按照行政院主計總處及人總的共通性刪減原則……"],["徐委員欣瑩：特別針對地方，我們要把地方拉上來……"],["劉部長世芳：跟地方制度法，現在中央歸中央，至於兩者是不是有扞格的地方，我來了解一下，然後儘快跟委員回復。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。我剛剛有宣告，我們休息5分鐘，大家上個廁所。","休息（12時19分）","繼續開會（12時25分）"],["主席：報告委員會，我們繼續開會。接下來請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159284","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159284","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbeca8969ac4cd2203100c4df18311f68d19c9681c5de83954cd6849d3fc6a78aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"11:59:30 - 12:07:00","影片長度":"00:07:30","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T11:59:30+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T12:07:00+08:00","duration":450,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.3472187500000001,"end":2.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.41034375,"end":3.8109687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.03034375,"end":4.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.26659375,"end":4.840343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.18971875,"end":12.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.25721875,"end":12.282218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.282218750000002,"end":28.785968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.785968750000002,"end":28.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.95471875,"end":37.932218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.033468750000004,"end":48.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.158468750000004,"end":53.524718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.67659375,"end":57.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.642218750000005,"end":93.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.80534375,"end":93.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.97409375000001,"end":110.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.46096875,"end":125.17596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.59784375000001,"end":125.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.61034375000001,"end":129.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.03596875,"end":144.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.95346875,"end":160.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.30971875,"end":167.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.75159375,"end":246.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.35971875,"end":218.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.03034375000001,"end":251.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.16034375,"end":255.23159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.65346875000003,"end":256.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.11721875,"end":259.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.92721875,"end":263.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.07409375000003,"end":265.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.23409375,"end":274.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.35596875000005,"end":271.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.72221875,"end":288.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.23909375,"end":309.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.30221875,"end":289.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.00221875,"end":292.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.99096875000004,"end":310.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.40846875,"end":315.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.15034375000005,"end":318.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.29721875,"end":331.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.57534375,"end":323.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.85346875000005,"end":328.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.94159375000004,"end":329.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.74159375000005,"end":340.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.49221875,"end":342.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.50909375000003,"end":342.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.88034375,"end":355.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.93471875,"end":346.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.12034375,"end":346.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.68846875,"end":373.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.29846875000004,"end":367.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.48346875000004,"end":371.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.67721875,"end":375.6853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感謝丁議員的關心啦對於丁議員所講的部分包括很多26個委員有提出"},{"start":38.16,"end":44.424,"text":"跟不一樣的風格的日子我們認為是不是要有共識來推測在第一項第二項就是說是不是我們在推測共識的時候可以跟很多不一樣的團體包括勞動團體、教育團體甚至中小企業的代表跟學者專家把他們的想法想出來之後因為看起來世界上沒有一個最完美的版本百分之百的人都同意"},{"start":65.797,"end":74.902,"text":"但是呢 可以代表他們這裡的人的聲音 我們可以帶他們來 讓他們看看 你可以接受的上限是什麼下限是什麼 這樣才可以選舉共識不然每一個人都覺得自己的最重要這樣就是變成 如果我們大家都重要 都加進去之後未來啊 我們的訪教日會變成超過31天啦超過31天 我相信各行各業 百家百業 絕對會受到很大的衝擊和影響"},{"start":93.933,"end":97.776,"text":"我們的勞工金融是比較辛苦,當我們全世界的管理員,勞工的洗手超過兩成,在世界的管理員超過一倍。"},{"start":110.566,"end":112.308,"text":"很多我們的社會都可以說已經過勞了我們說到更新世界比世界主要的經濟國家更加落後了還有一項就是我們希望說孩子"},{"start":127.503,"end":129.624,"text":"和四大人共過的時間未來你一定可以做到,不要說教師節,我們剛才說教師節,教師節他如果共過,四大人沒有共過,剛才小孩要再拜託人,那如果下課,那個勞動節"},{"start":145.155,"end":146.657,"text":"年輕人要繼續做事,年輕人也是在家的,他們沒辦法跟年輕人做事處理妥當,還是說有什麼互動的關係,這個過分可能要請內政部有一定的方式"},{"start":160.794,"end":164.558,"text":"我相信很多朋友也站在告示節是不是要放假的日程提出跟委員要求但是告示節有告示節的時刻我剛才有說過如果告示節放假之後其實現在最大的影響是影響在偏鄉地區的孩子的收購款"},{"start":177.673,"end":195.663,"text":"偏鄉地區的學童的受教權會受到影響然後再加上目前以台灣的教育學制來講我們本來就有寒暑假所以委員所提到的問題就是說寒假期間小孩子放假的時候家長怎麼樣處理小孩子放假時候他們的教養教育的問題那跟"},{"start":198.724,"end":217.883,"text":"只有單一提出9月28那一天因為老師放假所以小孩子在家沒有人看顧其實會有不同的看法因為人數或天數真的很多譬如說我們的暑假可能有一兩個月那我們總不能一兩個月教師都放假然後全國就跟著一起放假我想這樣子太極端的想法"},{"start":218.564,"end":246.528,"text":"所以我剛剛有提到這裡面要解決就是教師的權益的問題或是勞工權益的問題的話目的失業主管機關的教育部或者是這個勞動部他們要提出一個有效的辦法來抑止譬如說工時過長然後勞動條件過苛或者是教師時數過長的問題而不是全部把它放到要不要放假變成國定假日然後全國一起放假然後就一次解決所有的問題這樣子也未免太草率"},{"start":247.008,"end":254.933,"text":"對 感謝我們國中的用心剛才你說 都總共有三十一種冠軍三十一個冠軍 三十一的冠軍二十六個委員提案 每天都要報告 都總共三十一天三十一天 這樣要整合 實在辛苦整合 我們如果能整合 才能完全配合我們是希望說"},{"start":274.884,"end":279.068,"text":"當然我們隔天不可以無限的日數但是我們政府在一日一宵的修法的時候它那七天到晚有提掉的這是事實但是委員 我覺得這樣剛好一半對一半不對"},{"start":292.641,"end":309.155,"text":"雖然在一例一休只能所謂七天假拿掉但是未來我們週休二日的部分現在全台灣各地的放假全台灣加上週休二日已經是一百一十五天或者是一百一十六天跟原來不到一百天是差很多的是所以現在剛才你說的還他七天假還他七天假這個理由是什麼"},{"start":322.529,"end":327.415,"text":"還他七天假是不是可以請盧董博來跟議員解說因為這不是來敬博主觀的我還有一些問題"},{"start":342.529,"end":354.252,"text":"市長感謝你現在我們旁邊的旅行朋友都有在說希望可以還他7點價這個原因是什麼那就是100.5年12月份那些人修改希望可以變成週休2日週休2日那些人之前那些委員就討論說那週休2日要"},{"start":369.955,"end":376.363,"text":"放假天數的增加,所以就希望說,可以來修改這個勞動,勞基法裡面的私人細則,跟本價,勞工有19日,減7天,變成12天"},{"start":384.953,"end":412.626,"text":"但是那時候在修改的時候也同時把一些特殊價來增加譬如說本價下跌是一年年資以下半年年資的本價是沒有特殊的但是修改以後配合就是說半年年資的有三天的特殊一年以上到兩年特殊價也增加兩年以上也都增加所以特殊價也有適度增加"},{"start":413.53,"end":418.377,"text":"聽說勞工錢,我們這裡勞工平均都是比較高階級才有辦法關卡,比較低階級也有辦法關卡全台灣勞工有益勞動者都是有辦法勞工都有辦法希望說"},{"start":430.293,"end":436.198,"text":"我們這邊跟我們來賓國家可以將對我們這個勞工朋友觀感的這個過分可以好好的去討論讓我們勞工朋友有一個好的一個管理感謝 感謝市長 感謝主席謝謝好 謝謝丁學尊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":884,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（11時59分）感謝主席。請劉部長。"],["主席：部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：丁委員，您好。"],["丁委員學忠：部長，辛苦了。"],["劉部長世芳：不會，您好。"],["丁委員學忠：我們今天討論紀念日條例草案，就是要讓我們的國定假日可以統一規定，不要有一國多制的問題，內政部是主要業務的主管單位，你們的意見是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：是，感謝丁委員的關心，針對丁委員所說的部分，包括有26位委員提出，有31天不一樣的放假日，我們認為是不是要有共識再來推廣，這是第一項；第二項，是不是我們在推廣共識時可以跟很多不一樣的團體，包括勞動團體、教師團體，甚至中小企業界的代表以及學者專家討論，把他們的想法彙整出來之後……因為看起來世界上沒有最完美的版本，能讓百分之百的人都同意，但是有代表他們這些人的聲音，我們可以找他們來問問看，看他們可以接受的上限是什麼？下限是什麼？這樣才可以尋求共識，不然每個人都覺得自己的最重要，這樣就變成大家都很重要，如果我們都把它加進去之後，未來我們的放假日會變多，如果多到31天，我相信各行各業、百工百業絕對會受到很大的衝擊跟影響。"],["丁委員學忠：事實上我們的勞工朋友是比較辛苦，我們臺灣勞工在全世界排名，勞動時數差不多超過2,000小時，在世界排名差不多是第六，我們社會上很多勞工都已經可以說是過勞了；說到放假，我們變得比世界主要經濟國家更加落後。還有一項，我們希望未來可以將小孩跟大人的放假時間擬定在一起，如同我們剛才說的教師節，不要教師節他們放假，大人沒放假，小孩還要拜託別人顧；如果勞動節大人放假，小孩還要繼續讀書，大人們在家也沒辦法跟小孩一起出去玩或是有什麼互動，這部分可能要請內政部擬定一個方式。"],["劉部長世芳：是，我相信很多朋友也站在教師節是不是要放假的立場來跟委員提出要求，但是教師節有教師節的思考，我剛才有說過，如果教師節放假，其實現在影響最大的是偏鄉地區小孩的受教權，偏鄉地區學童的受教權會受到影響，再加上目前以臺灣的教育學制來講，我們本來就有寒暑假，所以委員所提到的問題是，寒假期間小孩子放假的時候，家長怎麼處理小孩子放假時的教養、教育問題，跟只有單一提出9月28日那一天，因為老師放假，所以小孩子在家沒有人看顧，其實會有不同的看法，因為人數、天數真的很多，譬如說暑假可能有一、兩個月，我們總不能教師放假一、兩個月，全國就跟著一起放假，我想這樣子的想法太極端；所以我剛剛有提到，這裡面要解決的是教師權益或是勞工權益問題的話，目的事業主管機關的教育部或者是勞動部要提出一個有效的辦法來抑止譬如工時過長、勞動條件過苛，或者是教師時數過長的問題，而不是全部把它放到要不要放假、變成國定假日，然後全國一起放假，一次解決所有的問題，這樣子也未免太草率。"],["丁委員學忠：對，感謝部長的用心，剛才說總共有31個版本……"],["劉部長世芳：26個委員提案，如果每天都要放假，總共是31天。"],["丁委員學忠：總共31天，這樣要整合也實在很辛苦。"],["劉部長世芳：立法院如果可以整合出來，我們願意配合。"],["丁委員學忠：我們也同意假日不能是無限的日數，但我們政府在一例一休修法時把7天假拿掉，這是事實啦，但是……"],["劉部長世芳：委員，我覺得這樣剛好一半對、一半不對，雖然在一例一休的時候把所謂的7天假拿掉，但是在週休二日的部分，現在全臺灣各地的放假加上週休二日已經是115天或者是116天，跟原來不到100天是差很多的。"],["丁委員學忠：是，所以現在勞工說的「還他7天假」，這個理由是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：不好意思，關於「還他7天假」，是不是可以請勞動部來跟委員解釋？因為這不是內政部主管的，我有一些問題……"],["丁委員學忠：好。"],["李次長健鴻：委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：次長，感謝你。"],["李次長健鴻：不會。"],["丁委員學忠：現在勞工朋友都在說，希望可以還他7天假，這個原因是什麼？"],["李次長健鴻：就是立法院在105年12月修法，將勞基法修改，希望可以變成週休二日。"],["丁委員學忠：是。"],["李次長健鴻：當時立法院的委員在討論週休二日，週休二日之後放假天數會增加，所以希望可以修改勞基法裡面的施行細則，把本來勞工休假19天減掉7天，變成12天。"],["丁委員學忠：對。"],["李次長健鴻：但當時立法院修改的時候也同時增加一些特休假，譬如本來勞基法針對一年年資以下的，只有半年年資者本來是沒有特休的，但是修改以後變成半年年資者有3天特休，一年以上到兩年的特休假也增加，兩年以上也都增加，所以特休假也適度增加。"],["丁委員學忠：聽說針對勞動節放假，勞工朋友是比較高階級的才有辦法放假，比較低階級的沒辦法放假。"],["李次長健鴻：沒有，全臺灣的勞工在五一勞動節都有放假。"],["丁委員學忠：嗯，五一勞動節都有放假。"],["李次長健鴻：對，勞工都有放假。"],["丁委員學忠：好，希望你們跟內政部可以針對勞工朋友放假的部分再好好討論，讓我們勞工朋友能有一個好的權益。"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["丁委員學忠：感謝次長、感謝主席。"],["李次長健鴻：感謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝丁學忠委員。今天開會，中午就不休息了，我們把質詢走完，但待會在徐欣瑩委員質詢完之後休息5分鐘，讓大家上廁所。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159283","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159283","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb7524912eea58a9b9100c4df18311f68d19c9681c5de83954a44ad80bc68501425ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:50:57 - 11:59:24","影片長度":"00:08:27","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T11:50:57+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T11:59:24+08:00","duration":507,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.578468750000001,"end":10.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.30784375,"end":11.910968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.26034375,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.39096875,"end":89.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.05909375,"end":96.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.37034375,"end":120.68721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.29471875,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.16534375,"end":152.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.83409375000002,"end":157.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.71096875,"end":161.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.92971875,"end":168.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.20284375,"end":175.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.37909375,"end":175.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.39596875,"end":181.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.08284375000002,"end":257.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.31284375,"end":194.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.99846875,"end":208.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.33596875,"end":208.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.26909375,"end":291.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.74909375000004,"end":292.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.95159375000003,"end":292.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.37346875000003,"end":292.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.87971875,"end":327.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.79409375,"end":331.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.67534375,"end":338.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.69534375,"end":384.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.08471875000004,"end":386.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.50221875,"end":435.86159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.86159375000005,"end":435.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.58721875000003,"end":471.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.19346875,"end":490.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.78971875,"end":502.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.88909375000003,"end":504.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.75784375,"end":506.34846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.80409375000005,"end":508.96409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.584,"end":9.693,"text":"好 主席我們與會同仁請我們內政部部長請內政部的部長"},{"start":18.64,"end":44.832,"text":"部長針對我們紀念日與節日的實施條例的草案那本期早上也有看到26位的委員提出都是大家都不同的版本那總共的紀念日就有31種那有大家都有不同的放假的理由實際上在這31種我們要實施的話還是要很全面性的考量"},{"start":45.572,"end":69.509,"text":"那本席也知道在去年也辦了公聽會但是公聽會的結果也沒有共識那未來我們要怎樣實施因為已經制定的國定假日這是關係到未來整個產業鏈以及我們所有的經公教人員大家的休息的時間那本席也知道"},{"start":70.33,"end":89.133,"text":"最重要就是5月1號的勞動節勞動節全國的勞工都有休息但是本席在這邊每年我都會去參加那個勞工節的表揚活動那勞工他們雖然休息了但是有的家庭他是他不管是"},{"start":90.194,"end":112.612,"text":"先生是公教人員還是都是不同調那要討論是因為那個勞動節是不是我們也是一致性來做討論我認為這應該會比較確實一點那其實現在勞工他們面臨到的問題不是多少的家因為我們現在台灣是週休二日嘛"},{"start":113.132,"end":120.3,"text":"那週休二日你還要一些國定假日那算起來勞工在意的是他們的薪水如何提高"},{"start":121.383,"end":139.514,"text":"他的薪水提高他的家庭他才有活動去顧啊因為大家都有經濟壓力我們是要怎樣來讓他的薪水提高這樣才對他們更有保障這個部分是不是說不定我們說他這個方面我們的勞動節這個部分要怎樣來實施可以符合說因為畢竟他們會造成勞工休息但是"},{"start":150.98,"end":160.131,"text":"他的配偶為他沒休息,他的小朋友為他託租,又不同調你說你既然要實施,就先對我們的勞工、保溫、勞動者我們來做研究,是不是這樣保證你會看法"},{"start":169.366,"end":173.209,"text":"謝謝吳委員對這裡的教育吳委員為上教育的勞工在內政部的實施辦法裡面在5條有說到現在有節日按照規定放假的兒童節然後勞動節跟軍人節"},{"start":188.439,"end":205.139,"text":"那兒童節當然兒童放假但是當天或者是第二天剛好也都是掃墓的部分所以兩個放在一起可能大家會覺得剛好有一個放假日不管是民俗節日或者是兒童放假因為兒童都是全世界都知道這是未來國家的主人翁"},{"start":205.439,"end":228.681,"text":"那一天如果沒有放假大概也會犯重怒但是勞動節的話在我們規範是因為由勞動部會希望是勞動部的規定是勞工放假軍人節的話是按照國防部的規定來放假但是大家都知道軍人節放假那一天全國軍人要放假台灣的國家安全就出狀況變得有留守的軍人"},{"start":229.522,"end":257.597,"text":"不能夠在軍人節放假那既然有留守的軍人不能夠在軍人放假的話他們可能就要補休或是有休假或是其他的方式來做修訂那但是在勞動節的部分呢我們討論的是勞工放假之後勞工有沒有其他的一個補救措施但是現在呢外面所講的所謂的勞動團體在講所謂還我七天假把勞動節拿出來是說勞動節那一天勞工放假但是非勞工沒有放假"},{"start":258.537,"end":282.414,"text":"這個是一個很奇怪的論點所以我們才說我們應該跳脫第一個我們已經講過應該跳脫紀念日跟節日的實施辦法大家一起來討論就是全國的人總共放假日是115天或126天這樣子到底適不適合那如果不適合的狀況之下我們怎麼樣增加這個放假的部分而不要只"},{"start":283.815,"end":300.766,"text":"把這個所謂的勞動節或者是教師節拿出來因為本來勞工在勞動節那天就放假了那我們怎麼對人家講說勞動節那一天非勞工也要跟著一起放假那這是另外一個議題的思考"},{"start":301.326,"end":327.164,"text":"而不是拿這個議題來說因為環國七天假所以勞動節那天要放假勞動節本來勞工就放假所以這個不是我們在特別針對外面的想法那當然在行政部門內部我們看到就是說如果勞動節那邊全國放假的話是全國的軍公教跟著一起放假那天全國都放假的狀況之下有人會拿"},{"start":327.884,"end":346.358,"text":"要領加班費那有人要過來上班但是我們知道公務人員大概多少天的假就跟著多少天放假那個大概沒有意義但是會影響到比較多的就是我們所說的我們放假天數那麼多我們用那個過年農曆春節期間過年的時候誰最辛苦"},{"start":349.5,"end":374.842,"text":"交通運輸業的人或者是觀光旅宿業的人這種都是小型的這些人呢或者是我們看到統一超商裡面第一線在做服務的同仁這麼這些第一個他們有沒有按照勞基法裡面領到應該有的加班費或是應該有的特休的部分這一塊才是真正照顧到勞工權益的部分也就是說不要把"},{"start":375.622,"end":384.174,"text":"所謂的假日或是節日放假這個事情把要還給什麼勞工有七天假或者是有一些特殊身份的人要放假全部把它"},{"start":386.764,"end":411.366,"text":"這樣子反而無法處理事情那行政部門本來就是按照我們的行政程序一步一步非常清楚的框架下來以後我們就可以去按照這樣子的辦法也好或是法律案來一起討論那在這次的修法當中我們特別提到以目前來講第一個明年我們才會碰到明年的要不要放假的狀況所以還有時間我們可以凝聚共識那院長在"},{"start":411.946,"end":434.279,"text":"立法院回答很多立委的時候也提到我們是保持開放的態度但是要能夠凝聚目標或者凝聚方向有區域一致的目標跟方向的話那行政立法部門或是我們跟很多的勞動團體或是跟很多其他的相關的職業團體呢就有比較好的溝通空間希望能夠很平和的來解決這個問題好的"},{"start":436.616,"end":440.44,"text":"謝謝部長 因為你說他們所提出的二十六個有三十一種版本其實這都大家我們都尊重我們都很尊重我們各委員提出的但是你對勞工我們要怎麼照顧勞工這個部分因為大家勞工他們受到的經濟壓力都大嘛"},{"start":458.058,"end":460.221,"text":"要如何去提高新租,該有的享有的收價,我們都要朝這方向來努力,讓勞工,勞工是最辛苦的,勞工的經濟壓力也最重的"},{"start":475.519,"end":481.461,"text":"所以在這個部分我們都是站在勞工上最新我們這陣頭也是站在勞工的這個部分來看待這個事情未來我希望說可以來開公聽會找相關的單位包含我們的勞工代表還是說我們的僱主大家都共同來檢討不要說這樣一個飛機一次就要再來修改一遍那這也不是好事啦在這裡再次感謝謝謝"},{"start":507.132,"end":508.118,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝吳京明委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":871,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時51分）主席、與會同仁。請內政部部長。"],["主席：請內政部劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：吳委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：部長好。部長，針對紀念日及節日實施條例草案，本席早上有看到26位委員提案，大家的版本都不同，紀念日總共就有31種，大家都有不同的放假理由，實際上，這31種我們要實施的話，還是要很全面性地考量。","本席知道去年辦了公聽會，但是公聽會的結果也沒有共識，未來我們要怎樣實施？因為已經制定的國定假日是關係到未來整個產業鏈及所有軍公教人員大家的休息時間。本席也知道最重要的就是5月1號勞動節，勞動節全國的勞工都有休息，本席每年都會去參加勞工節的表揚活動，勞工他們雖然休息了，但是有的家庭可能先生是公教人員，都是不同調，因此要就勞動節是不是一致性來做討論，我認為這樣應該會比較切實一點。","其實現在勞工他們面臨到的問題不是有多少假，因為現在臺灣是週休二日，除了週休二日，還有一些國定假日，算起來勞工在意的是他們的薪水如何提高，他們的薪水提高才有辦法照顧自己的家庭，因為大家都有經濟壓力，我們是要討論怎樣讓他的薪水提高，這樣對他們才更有保障，這個部分是不是請部長針對勞動節要怎麼實施，讓它可以符合因為畢竟會造成勞工休息，但是配偶有的沒休息，小朋友有的在讀書，又不同調，既然要實施，就是我們針對勞動節勞工的這個部分來做研究，請問部長你的看法？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝吳委員，吳委員非常照顧勞工。在內政部實施辦法裡面第五條規定，現有節日按照規定放假的有兒童節、勞動節跟軍人節。那兒童節當然兒童放假，但是當天或者是第二天剛好也是掃墓節的話，兩個放在一起可能大家會覺得剛好有一個放假日，不管是民俗節日或者是兒童放假，因為全世界都知道兒童是未來國家的主人翁，那天如果沒有放假，大概也會犯眾怒。但是勞動節的話，在我們規範是因為由勞動部主管，依勞動部的規定是勞工放假，軍人節的話是按照國防部的規定來放假，但是大家都知道軍人節放假那一天，全國軍人要放假，那臺灣的國家安全就會出狀況，所以變成有留守的軍人不能夠在軍人節放假，既然有留守的軍人不能夠在軍人節放假的話，他們可能就要補休或是有休假或是其他的方式來做修訂。","而在勞動節的部分，我們討論的是勞工放假之後，勞工有沒有其他的補救措施，但是現在外面所講的，就是勞動團體在講所謂還我7天假，把勞動節拿出來是說勞動節那一天勞工放假，但是非勞工沒有放假，這是一個很奇怪的論點，所以我們才說我們應該跳脫，第一個，我們已經講過，應該跳脫紀念日跟節日的實施辦法，大家一起來討論全國的人總共放假日是115天或116天，這樣子到底適不適合？如果不適合的狀況之下，我們怎麼樣增加放假的部分，而不要只把勞動節或者是教師節拿出來，因為本來勞工在勞動節那天就放假了，那我們怎麼對人家說勞動節那一天非勞工也要跟著一起放假，這是另外一個議題的思考，而不是拿這個議題來說因為還我7天假，所以勞動節那天要放假，勞動節本來勞工就放假，所以這個不是我們特別針對外面的想法。","當然在行政部門內部我們看到，如果勞動節那天全國放假的話，就是全國的軍公教跟著一起放假，那天變成全國都放假的狀況之下，有人會要領加班費，那有人要過來上班，但是我們知道公務人員大概多少天的假就跟著多少天放假，那個大家沒有異議。但是會影響到比較多的就是我們所說的，我們放假天數那麼多，比如農曆春節期間過年的時候，誰最辛苦？交通運輸業的人或者是觀光旅宿業的人，這種都是小型的這些人，或者是我們看到統一超商裡面第一線在做服務的同仁，第一個，他們有沒有按照勞基法領到應該有的加班費，或是應該有的特休的部分，這一塊才是真正照顧到勞工權益的部分，也就是不要把所謂的假日或是節日放假這個事情，把要還給勞工有7天假，或者是有一些特殊身分的人要放假，全部把它混合成一堆，這樣子反而無法處理事情，行政部門本來就是按照行政程序一步一步非常清楚的框架下來以後，我們就可以按照這樣子的辦法或者法律案來一起討論。","在這次的修法當中，我們特別提到，以目前來講，第一個，明年我們才會碰到明年要不要放假的狀況，所以還有時間，我們可以凝聚共識。院長在立法院回答很多立委的時候也提到，我們是保持開放的態度，但是要能夠凝聚目標或是凝聚方向，有趨於一致的目標跟方向的話，那行政、立法部門或是我們跟很多的勞動團體，或是跟很多其他相關的職業團體就有比較好的溝通空間，希望能夠很平和地來解決這個問題。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的，謝謝部長。因為你說早上他們所提出的26個，有31種版本，我們都很尊重各委員提出的，但是對勞工要怎麼照顧，勞工這個部分因為勞工所受的經濟壓力都大嘛，就是要怎麼來提高他的薪資及該享有的休假，我們都要朝這個方向來努力，可以說勞工是最辛苦的。再來，勞工可以說他的經濟壓力也是最重的，所以這個部分，我們都是站在勞工這邊，相信我們執政黨也是站在勞工這邊來看待這個事情。未來我希望可以開公聽會，找相關單位包含勞工代表還是雇主，大家都共同來檢討，不要說一個會期，一屆就要再來修改一次，這也不是好事，在這裡再次感謝，謝謝。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭）：謝謝吳琪銘委員。","下一位我們請丁學忠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159282","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159282","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb18ea4932f2d22c69ad7e46c29134393c19c9681c5de83954465aa8e1d032cc685ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:52:34 - 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有請部長部長好部長好部長辛苦了啦不過我是剛剛在主持會議的時候我要提醒有人都聞是針對金融市那個案件我覺得您這邊的答案跟台電的答案是有點"},{"start":29.386,"end":45.608,"text":"有點落差不太好啦因為兩個的範疇原本就是不太一樣硬放在一塊在講程序的過程裡面我覺得這事情應該是最早就要先釐清應該是台電要趕快先跳出來講清楚"},{"start":46.269,"end":61.819,"text":"而且是你們自主檢驗的部分確實已經有問題嘛對不對然後他現在又要另外另外一個範圍裡面那邊又有問題然後說你們去抽又出了問題我是覺得這個事情應該是可以講得很清楚我不曉得為什麼會"},{"start":63.229,"end":87.431,"text":"用了這麼多時間而且在那邊爭執不斷嘛那當然我就沒辦法我就想說時間也拖太久後面有這麼多委員要質詢所以我就必須把它切斷那我還是建議說像這種事情可能要慎重而且要簡單而要明確的答覆清楚啦不要造成沒有必要這樣的一個一個一個一個分擾但如果講程序來講我還是我還是會著重在如果"},{"start":88.172,"end":113.681,"text":"如果確實不管你台電自主檢驗的部分有出問題他另外講的換酬又有問題那顯然這個環評在進行中雖然是兩個是不一樣的程序但環境部還是要小心台電也是要小心才是一個正確的處理方式那我現在回到主題請教部長"},{"start":116.041,"end":139.25,"text":"如果各單位在辦這種相關的課程的這個研習那我們也有自己的這個公部門派出的這個講師然後講的內容如果跟這一個我們要講習的實質內容是完全脫鉤完全是不一樣的內容的情況之下你知道這事情你會怎麼處理"},{"start":141.854,"end":169.011,"text":"我會去了解他為什麼會這樣講因為還沒有遇過所以也請委員指正那你已經快遇到了我先提醒一下我們台灣是在2019年成為亞洲第一個通過同婚的國家那也成為這個亞洲人權最進步的一個燈塔部長應該認同嗎認同那如果有人在課堂上一直在講這個同婚是有問題的然後還在支持要反對"},{"start":171.206,"end":200.018,"text":"那這應該不是個人自由的意志嘛因為他是在一個公部門辦的課程裡面然後來講這些東西然後跟課程完全不搭嘎那如果部長了解事實上又發生在你的部會你會怎麼處理我會先來了解然後會先去了解他為什麼會這樣講然後如果是有一些概念上的不一樣的話我會請他去上性品的教育好只有這樣而已嗎"},{"start":202.79,"end":220.775,"text":"這個我們會如果查證屬實啦他今天我直接坦白講就這樣嘛他是在講什麼他是在講一個環境教育人員的認證研習班啦環境教育研習的認證這個這個範疇裡面跟同性婚姻有什麼關係如果都完全沒有關係的情況之下部長你會怎麼處理他說去你要叫他去上性評的課程還有勒"},{"start":232.657,"end":258.642,"text":"委員再給我了解一下好不好我是先假設說你了解起來事實上就是這個樣子你會怎麼處理嗎我會第一個是說了解說他的影響的程度那我們事實上如果有一些要處罰的事情的話我們都有一個機制例如說我要找專家來看他怎麼樣怎樣處置會比較好那如果說他是太超過的話我們會嚴格禁止他外出不能講這些事情"},{"start":260.629,"end":274.993,"text":"外出不能講這個事情就是不能夠再上這個課我們會再瞭解一下因為我不知道這內容是什麼東西他就是是我們的一個授課講師然後是在處理環境階段人員認證的研習班上的課程講出這樣的內容"},{"start":279.876,"end":302.146,"text":"我已經明確的表達了啦剛剛部長有答覆我第一個就是說會要求他去上姓名課程嘛對不對第二個我是問實質的他這一個環境教育人員的一個認證怎麼會跟這個同性婚姻有任何的關係那你如果知道這是一個屬實那你會怎麼做出相關的處置"},{"start":304.094,"end":324.218,"text":"未來不應該他來做這樣的工作所以委員我們再來調查了解一下你知道他不只是這樣還有很多離譜的他包含放的影片你看這個影片部長你看一下我特別標出出來那個右上角這是簡體字他用中國的相關的影片"},{"start":333.181,"end":359.347,"text":"來做課堂上的一個資料在播放那不只如此還有下一段你要看一下戴酸噎語指名道姓罵民間單位然後上面那一段還好沒有罵到你罵前院長只用自己人台灣人民民族性太民族沒有成果要依據民族性的做法哒哒哒"},{"start":361.133,"end":387.771,"text":"這個到底跟環境交易人員的認證有什麼關係沒有關係這個我們會來處理這個如果是屬實這一個環境部的這個講師而且又具備公務人員的身份部長要怎麼處置我們會組成專案小組來調查如果要處分的話我們會有一定的程序來去做懲處不只如此我今天是個學員"},{"start":388.786,"end":416.414,"text":"我來參加這個課程我要繳錢嘛 對不對那我繳了八千塊我得到課程的內容是這樣這八千塊怎麼處理好 委員我們再來瞭解一下好不好這個是不是它是每一堂課都這樣還是怎麼樣我們會再來瞭解不用到每一堂課只要一堂課是這個樣子這八千塊這八千塊我們去跟人家收了 意義何在"},{"start":419.522,"end":424.265,"text":"我覺得這是一個非常嚴重的事情請部長要慎重的來面對跟處理到現在還有這樣的"},{"start":431.816,"end":449.647,"text":"的官員的思維還有兼具這種行為然後又是在我們環境部辦的這種環境教育的人員的認證的一個研習班裡面我覺得是華天下是大忌就跟這件事情在講什麼言論自由的有的沒有的其實其實很"},{"start":452.49,"end":466.604,"text":"我覺得很不可思議我也不曉得怎麼再把這個事情描述因為我聽到這樣的訊息過程裡面我覺得真的對我而言台灣已經民主化到這樣程度然後現在還有我們官員在辦這樣的課程裡面"},{"start":467.585,"end":488.24,"text":"可以公然的在講堂上講出這樣的話然後用中國相關的影片來做他教學的相關的一些資料他到底要傳達什麼要做什麼動作政卿部長一定要非常慎重來面對這個事情好好把他處理好了好不好沒有問題 謝謝委員那今天最主要還是針對空氣汙染的事情"},{"start":490.041,"end":513.638,"text":"環境部今天的報告說是全國的PM2.5從105年維克立方米到113年降到12.8維克立方米改善率是36%我要肯定環境部的同仁在107年空華的大修之後在這幾年的努力空溫的數值確實是有下降沒有錯但是好還是更好環黨在去年就喊出應該設定在9維克立方米部長怎麼看"},{"start":517.516,"end":532.208,"text":"當然這個我當然是希望越低越好啦但是一個是可以達到的目標所以我們是希望說因為如果要往下走的話其實是真的需要很努力因為我們委員可以看這個數字一點點這個減量的幅度開始趨緩了"},{"start":533.229,"end":550.062,"text":"所以當然我現在目前我們提出來應該是淨零可以讓我們這個空瓶可以持續的改善所以也跟委員報告我們那時候算出來如果我們達到淨零的目標的話2031年如果-28加-2的話其實有機會PM2.5可以到接近10年平均值"},{"start":551.624,"end":577.032,"text":"2030年 我們是四年要檢討一次嘛 對不對那我們第一期109到112嘛 第二期是113到116嘛116當然還沒有到達嘛那當時我們這個聯軍的標準是從15降到12而且我們環境部還是號稱是這個亞洲最嚴格的標準喔 對不對但是今年報告書就已經說 已經快達標了但如果事實上喔 不等你再看一下"},{"start":578.073,"end":589.363,"text":"11到12的年均值分別是13.1還有14.7其實距離年均的所有微客立法院的目標真的是差不多多少了快達標了這是這個我覺得"},{"start":593.001,"end":619.07,"text":"我剛剛特別提到好還是要更好所以我在這邊是不是可以建立部長你剛剛講的是2030年嘛那是不是我們是不是可以提早一點提早一點對嘛OK保委我們現在等於是說那個白皮書我們未來也希望引進更好的政策工具可以算出來我們到底什麼時候可以到因為我來的時候也跟同仁討論我們什麼時候可以到的確那個數字還出不來"},{"start":620.03,"end":641.04,"text":"我建議還是要提前啦好不好就是部長的破例嘛那你講的白皮書剛剛有很多委員是要問你的規劃跟計畫嘛那白皮書白皮書也不是規劃跟計畫啊當然你的規劃跟計畫會配合你的白皮書嘛對 齊成嘛所以齊成我希望說2030年是不是可以再提早四年啊"},{"start":641.704,"end":671.284,"text":"有沒有可能非常辛苦要非常努力我們朝這個目標來打拚的好不好部長好那最後要請部長看這張圖齁就是今天的這個全國供氣品質的狀況黃澄澄的一片啦齁我今天特別安排這個主題是因為台灣的冰藥電平均雖然有明顯下降但到秋冬這個季節齁因為季風的關係嘛對不對齁污染物污染物無法擴散所以就產生明顯的這個霧霾齁尤其這幾天民眾特別感受到"},{"start":672.144,"end":683.312,"text":"在環境部的報告中也明顯的發現其實這幾年的B2.5的均值雖然已經降下來但是每年到這個秋冬的時候它又往上在提高你看11年46、11249、113是20、148.5了"},{"start":690.757,"end":716.41,"text":"上個禮拜的時候是排衛福部啦我特別跟部長提醒啦這個過年期間什麼地方的人數是會最多的地方觀光嘛 宗教嘛另外一個叫醫院嘛怎麼會在醫院發生這種急診有史以來的最嚴重的缺床的狀況然後這是急診議事會特別提出來的那我們每年都知道秋冬確實有氣候的問題"},{"start":718.141,"end":744.698,"text":"我們為什麼到現在沒有任何的相關的因應的作為不會讓這樣的一個空氣的汙染在秋冬的時候它所有的數值是往上在飆升的怎麼會沒有這不應該啊因為每年的秋冬它的特性我知道我知道我不要求說它已經就是到那個我們要達到那個目標均值嘛但是它已經增加到百分之二十、三十、四十在這樣跳"},{"start":746.94,"end":764.839,"text":"這每天都要生活每天都要吸空氣啊但是你讓一季一個秋冬的季節反而更加的嚴重沒有辦法達到我們原有要求的這個目標跟這個標準情況之下這顯然有很大的一個改善跟檢討的空間嘛我不曉得在你的白皮書裡面針對秋冬有沒有特別因應的作為啊"},{"start":765.619,"end":792.917,"text":"我們這邊會提出一些例如說工業的啊或是交通改善的一些策略方式因為其實現在其實要很努力要到支柱必較啦啊其實這個真的要後面往往下做也跟委員報告就是進入一個深水區的不好做例如說汽機車的管制等等的這個其實是很辛苦的我們會來努力啦嘗試再把它報告白皮書裡面把它納入討論公眾的討論部長我用正面的方式來做鼓勵啦好不好也肯定嘛齁紅皮說"},{"start":794.878,"end":803.963,"text":"老實講我們不會說在台灣大家說四八檔嘛那怎麼知道處理,那不可能處理嘛那要去處理的人,那是逃到高中嘛那要玩王子嘛當時很多人這麼講啊"},{"start":805.799,"end":817.322,"text":"都很進步水利署做到了啦謝謝委員那時候的指示然後完成了但是其實去年颱風多都有一些摧毀了那個海米颱風來之後後面就有兩個颱風那當然造成原有的不管是這種常規性的還是短暫性的這樣的一個相關的抑制措施顯然被破壞掉嘛那很快速的"},{"start":828.784,"end":842.738,"text":"去做相關的一些應應他還是會降低這樣的一個風險跟傷害嘛我是用本來說他只要整治這個紅皮刷大家也都是有質疑嘛但是還是還是照這樣對啊謝謝委員"},{"start":844.58,"end":860.287,"text":"所以如果秋季 秋冬季我們就會遇到特別的這種氣候問題應該有相關依照部長的智慧跟各單位的同等的智慧應該是可以來解決吧好不好 我也會來努力啦好不好 一個月來可以提出相關的一些因應作為啦 可以不可以好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1231,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時52分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：召委好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好，部長辛苦了。不過我剛剛在主持會議的時候，我要提醒，有很多委員是針對基隆市那個案件，我覺得您這邊的答復跟台電的答復是有點「落漆」，不太好啦。因為兩個範疇原本就是不太一樣，硬放在一塊，在講那個程序的過程裡面，我覺得這個事情應該是最早就要先釐清，應該是台電要趕快先跳出來講清楚，而且是你們自主檢驗的部分，確實已經有問題嘛，對不對？然後現在另外一個範圍裡面也有問題，然後你們去抽又出了問題等等，諸如此類，我是覺得這個事情應該是可以講得很清楚，我不曉得為什麼會用這麼多時間，而且在這邊爭執不斷，當然我就沒辦法，我就想說時間也拖太久，後面有這麼多委員要質詢，所以我就必須把它切斷了。我還是建議，像這種事情可能要慎重，而且要簡單扼要明確地答復清楚，不要造成沒有必要的紛擾，但如果以程序來講，我還是會著重在……如果台電自主檢驗的部分有問題，另外講的範疇又有問題，顯然這個環評在進行中，雖然是兩個不一樣的程序，但環境部還是要小心，台電也是要小心，才是一個正確的處理方式。","現在回到主題，請教部長，如果各單位在辦相關課程的研習，也有公部門自己派出的講師，然後講的內容如果跟講習的實質內容完全脫鉤，完全是不一樣的內容，在這種情況之下，你知道這個事情，你會怎麼處理？"],["彭部長啓明：我會去瞭解他為什麼會這樣講，因為還沒有遇過，所以也請委員指正。"],["劉委員建國：你已經快遇到了，我先提醒一下。我們臺灣是在2019年成為亞洲第一個通過同婚的國家，也成為亞洲人權最進步的一個燈塔，部長應該認同吧？"],["彭部長啓明：認同。"],["劉委員建國：OK、好。如果有人在課堂上一直在講同婚是有問題的，然後還在支持要反對，那這個應該不是個人自由的意志，因為他是在一個公部門辦的課程裡面講這些東西，然後跟課程完全不搭，如果部長瞭解，事實上又發生在你的部會，你會怎麼處理？"],["彭部長啓明：我會先來瞭解，然後會先去瞭解他為什麼會這樣講。如果是有一些概念上的不一樣的話，我會請他去上性平的教育。"],["劉委員建國：只有這樣而已嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們會……"],["劉委員建國：如果查證屬實，我直接坦白講，他是在環境教育人員的認證研習班上講，環境教育研習的認證範疇跟同性婚姻有什麼關係？如果完全沒有關係，在這種情況之下，部長你會怎麼處理？除了你要叫他去上性平的課程，還有呢？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，再給我瞭解一下，好不好？"],["劉委員建國：我是先假設你瞭解起來事實上就是這個樣子，你會怎麼處理？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個，我會瞭解影響的程度，事實上如果有一些要處罰的事情的話，我們都有一個機制，例如我要找專家來看他怎麼樣，要怎麼處置會比較好，如果他太超過的話，我們會嚴格禁止他外出不能講這些事情。"],["劉委員建國：外出不能講這些事情？"],["彭部長啓明：就是不能夠再上這個課，我們會再瞭解一下，因為我不知道內容是什麼東西。"],["劉委員建國：就是一個授課講師在處理環境教育人員認證研習班的課程，講出這樣的內容，我已經明確表達了。"],["彭部長啓明：OK。"],["劉委員建國：剛剛部長有答復我，第一個就是會要求他去上性平課程嘛，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：第二個，我是問實質的，這個環境教育人員的認證怎麼會跟同性婚姻有任何關係？你如果知道這件事情屬實，你會怎麼做出相關的處置？"],["彭部長啓明：未來不應該讓他來做這樣的工作，所以我們再來調查瞭解一下。"],["劉委員建國：你知道嗎？他不只是這樣，還有很多離譜的，包含他放的影片，你看這個影片，部長你看一下，我特別標示出來，那個右上角，這是簡體字，他用中國相關影片來做課堂上的資料在播放。不只如此，還有下一段，你再看一下，「帶酸、帶揶揄指名道姓罵民間單位」，而上面那一段，還好沒有罵到你，「前院長只用自己人、臺灣人民族性太民主沒成果，要依據民族性做法……」，他說的這些到底跟環境教育人員的認證有什麼關係？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有關係。"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["彭部長啓明：這個我們會來處理。"],["劉委員建國：這個如果屬實，這一個環境部的講師，而且又具備公務人員的身分，部長要怎麼處置？"],["彭部長啓明：我們會組成專案小組來調查，如果要處分的話，我們會照一定的程序做懲處。"],["劉委員建國：不只如此，我今天是個學員，我來參加這個課程，我要繳錢嘛，對不對？那我繳了8,000塊，我得到的課程內容是這樣，這8,000塊怎麼處理？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們再來瞭解一下，好不好？他是不是每一堂課都這樣還是怎麼樣，我們會再來瞭解。"],["劉委員建國：不用到每一堂課，只要有一堂課是這個樣子，這8,000塊我們去跟人家收了，意義何在？我覺得這是一個非常嚴重的事情，請部長要慎重地來面對和處理。"],["彭部長啓明：沒問題。"],["劉委員建國：到現在還有官員有這樣的思維及這種行為，又是在環境部舉辦的環境教育人員認證研習班，我覺得是滑天下之大稽耶！與這陣子講的言論自由、什麼有的沒有的，其實很……我覺得很不可思議啦！我也不知道該如何再描述這件事情！對我而言，聽到這個訊息後，我覺得臺灣已經民主化到這樣的程度，竟然還有官員在這樣的課程中公然在講堂上講出這樣的話，採用中國相關的影片做為相關教學的資料，他到底要傳達什麼、要做什麼動作？請部長一定要非常慎重的面對這件事情，好好地將它處理好，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["劉委員建國：今天最主要還是針對空氣汙染的議題，根據環境部今天的報告，全國的PM2.5從105年的20μg/m3到113年降至12.8μg/m3，改善率是36%。我要肯定環境部同仁自107年空污法大修之後在這幾年的努力，空污的數值確實是下降了，沒有錯！但是好還要更好，環團去年就喊出應該設定在9μg/m3，部長，你怎麼看？"],["彭部長啓明：我當然是希望越低越好，這個雖然是可以達到的目標，但是，如果要往下走的話，其實是真的需要很努力，委員可以看到這個數字，減量的幅度開始趨緩了。當然目前我們提出的淨零是可以讓空品持續的改善，也向委員報告，根據我們的計算，如果能達到淨零的目標，2030年減28再加上減2的話，其實有機會讓PM2.5的年平均值達到接近10。"],["劉委員建國：2030年？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：我們是4年要檢討1次，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：第一期是109年到112年、第二期是113年到116年，期限還沒到嘛！"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["劉委員建國：年均的標準從15降到12，而且環境部還號稱是亞洲最嚴格的標準，對不對？根據今年報告書的數據，顯然已經快達標了，事實上，請部長再看一下，111年與112年的年均值分別是13.1及14.7，距離年均值12μg/m3的目標真的是差不了多少，快達標了嘛！但是，剛剛我也特別提到，好還是要更好，因此我在這裡建議部長，剛剛你講的是2030年，不知道是否可以提早一點？"],["彭部長啓明：提早一點？"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們也希望未來白皮書能引進更好的政策工具，計算出我們到底什麼時候可以達標。在我上任後就與同仁討論過何時可以達標，的確那個數字還出不來。"],["劉委員建國：我建議還是要提前啦！好不好？這個就看部長的魄力嘛！至於你講的白皮書，剛剛很多委員問的是你的規劃及計畫，但白皮書也不是規劃及計畫啊！當然你的規劃及計畫會配合你的白皮書，期程嘛！其實我希望是不是可以比2030年再提早4年，有沒有可能？"],["彭部長啓明：非常辛苦，要非常努力。"],["劉委員建國：部長，我們朝這個目標打拼，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好。"],["劉委員建國：最後再請部長看這張圖，這是今天全國空氣品質的狀況，黃澄澄的一片！今天我特別安排這個主題，是因為雖然臺灣的PM2.5平均值有明顯下降，但是每到秋冬季節，因為季風的關係，汙染物無法擴散，所以就產生了明顯的霧霾，尤其這幾天民眾特別能感受到。在環境部的報告中也明顯發現，雖然這幾年PM2.5的均值已經下降，但是每每到了秋冬就會往上再提高。你看，111年是16、112年是19、113年是20、114年是18.5。上個禮拜的會議是排衛福部，我特別提醒部長，過年期間什麼地方的人數最多？觀光、宗教，另外一個就是醫院，怎麼會在醫院的急診發生有史以來最缺床的狀況，這是急診醫學會特別提出來的。我們也知道每年到秋冬就會有氣候的問題，為什麼到現在都沒有任何相關的因應作為，讓秋冬的空氣污染數值不會往上飆升，怎麼會沒有？不應該啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為每年秋冬的特性，有時候風向不一樣。"],["劉委員建國：是啊！我知道、我知道。我不要求要達到目標均值，但它的數值已經是增加20%、30%、40%這樣跳，每天都要生活、每天都要吸空氣，卻因為一季、一個秋冬季節讓空氣污染反而更加嚴重，沒辦法達到我們原有的要求及目標的情況之下，顯然有很大的改善及檢討空間，我不知道在你的白皮書裡有沒有針對秋冬提出特別的因應作為？"],["彭部長啓明：我們這邊會提出一些譬如工業或交通改善的策略方式，現在其實要很努力、要到錙銖必較啦！報告委員，這個如果真的要往下做，可說是進入一個深水區了，不好做！譬如汽機車的管制等等，這個其實是很辛苦的，我們會努力，也嘗試將它納入白皮書裡的公眾討論。"],["劉委員建國：部長，我用正面的方式來鼓勵，好不好？也給予肯定嘛！大家說濁水溪的風飛沙在臺灣400年了，怎麼有辦法處理，不可能處理，要處理的人是頭去撞到了，花冤枉錢嘛！當時有很多人都這麼講，但是環境部、水利署做到了啊！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員當時的指示，也完成了，但是去年的颱風多，又有一些被吹壞了。"],["劉委員建國：對，凱米颱風來了之後，後面又有2個颱風，造成常規性及短暫性的相關抑制措施顯然遭到破壞，很快速地去做相關的因應，還是可以降低這樣的風險及傷害。當時要整治風飛沙，大家也都是有質疑，但還是……"],["彭部長啓明：還是做到了。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["劉委員建國：每到秋冬季，我們就會遇到這樣特別的氣候問題，憑著部長的智慧及各單位同仁的智慧，應該是可以解決吧！好不好？一個月？"],["彭部長啓明：好，我們來努力，好不好？"],["劉委員建國：好啦！一個月內提出相關的因應作為，可不可以？"],["彭部長啓明：可以。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}},{"id":"1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24.4這個已經是超標很嚴重了吧沒有沒有沒有我們如果說是跟這個WHO的標準來看的話WHO的標準是多少"},{"start":125.18,"end":136.485,"text":"他建議是5但是其實是5我們24欸那個5很難做得到啊委員我們如果在花蓮也只不過只有7到8左右欸是是5很難做到對台灣來講很難做到對其他國家來說對不對有到7的8的很接近的這個其實別的國家都做得到為什麼台灣做不到"},{"start":147.288,"end":168.806,"text":"其實我們在臺灣在鄰近的亞洲的國家我們比韓國好比日本差一點點但是我們算是已經在前面的我們來看看全球最污染最嚴重的國家這以2024年來講我們是排名54名排名54名意思是說其實我們空氣污染是很糟糕的排名第一名是最嚴重排名54名然後呢南韓是多少59"},{"start":172.629,"end":176.85,"text":"新加坡94日本108我們如果要效法這個德國他們已經進入了無核家園人家也是103空氣品質比我們好得多吧你看日本他平均的8.69跟WHO的數字是非常接近的所以我們不要在那邊自欺欺人說我們現在的17.5或是平均20我們的空氣品質很好"},{"start":197.557,"end":204.603,"text":"包委員這個是IQ Air這個是瑞士的一家做空氣淨淨機還有賣儀器的公司做的所以它其實跟我們量測的方法不一樣所以這個數據僅供參考僅供參考所以我們量測的數據也是僅供參考因為我們跟其他的國家相比我們也是不好啊它基本上它是拿著這個自動全世界最權威的數據我們來看"},{"start":219.735,"end":221.356,"text":"對 你可以講說 這個不是最權威的數據我知道 我說請您可以提供一個最權威的數據全世界 有哪個國際組織提供最權威的數據來看看我們台灣的國際排名在最嚴重污染的國際排名裡面 我們是排第幾位麻煩請您會後"},{"start":240.57,"end":259.585,"text":"要提供給我 好不好 一個禮拜之內可以還是在一天其實就給我 委員再給我們多一點時間因為要蒐集各國最新的要花一點時間好不好 一個月好不好應該是有些國際組織或是學術研究機構就有做啊報委員那個方法學不一樣我們是採用國際上最嚴格的所以你們都是找最有利於台灣的方法學嘛委員你不能這樣說我們是看數據來做事"},{"start":261.827,"end":285.245,"text":"看數據嘛 所以嘛這是很清楚的數據嘛你在怎麼批評人家說這個是屬於民間的組織這個是賣什麼空氣清淨機但他做出來的數據跟我們的有差別嗎你看看我們今天來我們看我們今天24.4欸人家還對我們客氣了勒這是每天 這一天一天的如果我們看的是整年的不一樣所以我現在是今天呢所以一整年我們也沒有比較好來我們往下面看"},{"start":291.569,"end":314.43,"text":"那麼本席現在這邊很關心的問題就是其實我們知道空氣污染與肺腺癌的關係是息息相關那台灣的肺腺癌的人數已經是超過這個前10年要多得多那麼我們這邊就不說了這個事已經是正相關這是大家眾所皆知的事情那接下來我想要講的就是說其實"},{"start":315.471,"end":343.197,"text":"在其他國家也有在談是不是可以放空污假您覺得台灣有沒有必要放空污假這個目前我們台灣的嚴重空污的事件並沒有像這個印度這麼的嚴重印度那麼嚴重其實我們現在跟教育部合作有空污期他就可以適當的有一些及時的反應所以我們要到空污假的確目前還有一段的還有一段路要走目前來看的話因為他們是的確是非常嚴重"},{"start":343.937,"end":347.741,"text":"是 所以部長您認為我們到目前為止還不需要放空屋價那我們的情況還沒有那麼嚴重我們要跟那個第一名前幾名的印度比嗎我們可以跟其他的國家比嗎好 委員北京 上海 PM2.5都超過平均年平均值是35那這個印度的這個大概都兩三百以上我們台灣最嚴重的頂多五六十就很嚴重了"},{"start":367.358,"end":372.562,"text":"我們要跟好的學習見賢思其焉我們為什麼不去跟日本不去跟德國不去跟法國其他一些國家學對不對我們事實上我們的空氣污染就很嚴重啊就從中南部每次我開這個開車經過台中地區整個天氣就是霧濛濛的他就是他不管是天氣好天氣不好他都是這樣啊沒有這個你看到是藍天啊"},{"start":395.868,"end":424.087,"text":"那個是非常非常少數的這是人家記者拍的所以我只是舉例剛剛還沒有講到就是台電的問題對不對你台電現在因為馬上因應核能核三廠二號機五月就要停止運轉剩下的那個3.5% 4%的電會要用什麼方式來因應是不是台中火力發電廠還要全要火力全開了"},{"start":427.1,"end":442.632,"text":"這個到時候我們的空污會不會更嚴重報告委員燃氣基本上的空污比燃煤少很多而且它相對的很乾淨所以火力發電是燃煤跟燃氣是不一樣的所以部長我發現您的有些訊息也是錯誤的報告委員我沒有錯誤產生出來的污染物質它還是比核電要多得多所以委員你的意思是這個電廠可以蓋核電嗎"},{"start":454.335,"end":480.198,"text":"我不是說這個電廠蓋核電我有說台中火力發電廠改成核電嗎我的意思講說核三廠和其他的廠現在我們在談核電研議的問題請問部長您同不同意您支不支持核電廠研議報告委員研議需要法規還有後面的核廢料的處理研議的法規是我們立法委員負責從您當環境部長的角度來看您支持核電研議嗎我們要打造一個更乾淨的家園"},{"start":483.92,"end":507.396,"text":"我現在要問您從環境部的角度來看怎麼樣能夠提升改善環境的空氣品質我們支持低碳的能源 污染少的能源只是低碳您的目標就這麼小 低碳我們有可能淨零排碳嗎要努力 非常努力要努力 非常努力我看如果在你們民進黨執政底下大概不可能完成好 OK 今天質詢到這邊 謝謝好 謝謝讓他們努力一下"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1174,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時43分）召委好，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長，今天本席看到會議的主題，我直覺這個議題「氣象變異導致國內空品惡化」似乎就是想要護航現在民進黨政府的無能，在整個能源政策上面有很大的錯誤，所以導致國內的空氣品質嚴重惡化，而竟然把這樣的因素歸咎於氣候變遷，氣候變遷會造成空污品質的惡化嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個是氣象，氣象是短的，例如這幾天的天氣造成混合層的變低，那是氣象，跟氣候談的不一樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以我們今天談的是一個短的問題，還是談一個長的問題？"],["彭部長啓明：因為某一個突發因素，譬如這幾天的空氣品質是因為改吹東風，擴散條件不佳，這是氣象的問題，這是天氣的問題。氣候變遷指的是長的問題，10年、20年，所以這兩個是不一樣的。"],["翁委員曉玲：好。所以氣象變異您認為這也是扮演重要的關鍵因素，為什麼臺灣城市的空氣品質會如此糟糕？我們來看一下今天的空氣品質，剛剛前面的委員有問過，其實今天的空氣品質嚴格來說是不好，這邊寫84，普通，可是我們看細懸浮微粒，就是PM2.5，是24.4，這已經是超標很嚴重了吧？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有？我們如果是跟WHO的標準來看的話，WHO的標準是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：它建議是5，但是……"],["翁委員曉玲：是5？我們24耶！"],["彭部長啓明：那個5很難做得到。"],["翁委員曉玲：是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：如果在花蓮，也只不過只有7到8左右。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，5很難做到，對臺灣來講很難做到，對其他國家來說，有到7的、有到8的，也有很接近的，這個其實別的國家都做得到，為什麼臺灣做不到？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實在鄰近的亞洲國家，我們比韓國好，比日本差一點點，但是我們算是已經在前面了。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們來看看全球污染最嚴重的國家，以2024年來講，我們是排名第54名，排名第54名的意思是說，其實我們空氣污染是很糟糕的，排名第1名是最嚴重的，我們排名第54名，然後南韓是多少？59。新加坡是第94名，日本是第108名，我們如果要效法德國，他們已經進入了無核家園，人家也是排第103，空氣品質比我們好得多吧！你看日本，平均數值是8.69，跟WHO的數值是非常接近的，所以我們不要在那邊自欺欺人，說我們現在的17.5或是平均20，我們的空氣品質很好。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是IQAir做的，這是瑞士一家做空氣清淨機和賣儀器的公司做的，它其實跟我們量測的方法不一樣，所以這個數據僅供參考。"],["翁委員曉玲：僅供參考，所以我們量測的數據……"],["彭部長啓明：12.8。"],["翁委員曉玲：也僅供參考嗎？因為我們跟其他的國家相比，我們也是不好啊！"],["彭部長啓明：它基本上是拿著自動……"],["翁委員曉玲：還是你可以提供一個全世界最權威的數據讓我們來看，你可以講說沒有錯……"],["彭部長啓明：這不是最權威的數據、這不是最權威的數據。"],["翁委員曉玲：我知道，我說請您可以提供一個最權威的數據，就是世界有哪個國際組織提供最權威的數據，來看看臺灣在最嚴重污染的國際排名裡面是排第幾位，麻煩請您會後要提供給我，好不好？一個禮拜之內可以，還是3天可以給我們？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，再給我們多一點時間，因為我們蒐集各國最新的數據要花一點時間，好不好？一個月好不好？"],["翁委員曉玲：應該是有一些國際組織或學術研究機構就有做。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個方法學不一樣，我們是採用國際上最嚴格的……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們就是找最有利於臺灣的方法學嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你不能這樣說，我們是看數據來做事。"],["翁委員曉玲：看數據，所以這是很清楚的數據嘛，你再怎麼批評人家說這個是屬於民間的組織、這個是賣空氣清淨機的公司，但它做出來的數據跟我們的有差別嗎？你看看我們今天的空氣品質，24.4耶！人家還對我們客氣了。"],["彭部長啓明：這是每天的，是一天一天的，而我們看的是整年的，不一樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：這是今天啊！一整年我們也沒有比較好。","本席現在很關心的問題是，其實我們知道空氣污染與肺腺癌的關係是息息相關，臺灣得肺腺癌的人數已經比前10年要多得多，我們這邊就不說了，這個已經是正相關，是大家眾所皆知的事情。接下來我想要講的是，其實在其他國家也有在談是不是可以放空污假，你覺得臺灣有沒有必要放空污假？"],["彭部長啓明：目前臺灣的嚴重空污事件並沒有像印度那麼嚴重，其實我們現在跟教育部合作有空污旗，他們就可以適當地有一些即時的反映，所以我們要到可以放空污假的確目前還有一段路要走，目前來看的話，他們的確是非常嚴重。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以部長，您認為我們到目前為止還不需要放空污假，因為我們的情況沒有那麼嚴重，我們要跟前幾名的印度比嗎？要跟其他的國家比嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，北京、上海的PM2.5的年平均值是35，印度大概都兩、三百以上，臺灣最嚴重的頂多五、六十就很嚴重了。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們要跟好的學習，見賢思齊焉，我們為什麼不去跟日本、不去跟德國、不去跟法國及其他一些國家學？對不對？事實上我們的空氣污染就很嚴重啊，就是從中南部，每一次我開車經過臺中地區，整個天氣就是霧茫茫的，不管天氣好、天氣不好都是這樣啊。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，你看這個是藍天。"],["翁委員曉玲：那個是非常非常少數的，這是記者拍的，我只是舉例。剛剛還沒有講到台電的問題，台電現在因為馬上要因應核三廠二號機5月停止運轉，剩下3.5%的電，要用什麼方式來因應？是不是臺中火力發電廠還要火力全開？到時候我們的空污會不會更嚴重？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，基本上燃氣空污比燃煤少很多，而且它相對很乾淨，所以火力發電燃煤跟燃氣是不一樣的。"],["翁委員曉玲：部長，我發現您的有些訊息也是錯誤的。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我沒有錯誤；報告委員，我沒有錯誤。"],["翁委員曉玲：燃氣所產生的污染物質還是比核電要多得多，它可以算是燃氣……"],["彭部長啓明：不一樣，所以委員的意思是這個電廠可以蓋核電嗎？"],["翁委員曉玲：我不是說這個電廠蓋核電，我有說臺中火力發電廠要改成核電嗎？我第一次講說核三廠、其他的廠，現在我們在談核電延役的問題，請問部長，您同不同意？您支不支持核電廠延役？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，延役需要法規還有後面的核廢料的處理……"],["翁委員曉玲：您不要講那麼多，延役的法規是我們立法委員負責，從您當環境部長的角度來看，您支持核電延役嗎？我們要打造一個更乾淨的家園。"],["彭部長啓明：核電延役與否，是經濟部核安會的工作，不是環境部的工作。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在要問你，從環境部的角度來看，怎麼樣能夠提升改善環境的空氣品質。"],["彭部長啓明：我們支持低碳的能源、污染少的能源。"],["翁委員曉玲：只是低碳？您的目標就這麼小，低碳，我們有可能淨零排碳嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：要努力，非常努力。"],["翁委員曉玲：要努力，非常努力。我看如果在你們民進黨執政底下，大概不可能完成。OK，今天質詢到這邊，謝謝。"],["主席（楊委員曜代）：好，讓他們努力一下。","請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}},{"id":"159280","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159280","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbc106f816ece5e408a4d8ee7d728f055319c9681c5de839549c42b40381f6ac9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:17:23 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我們有請主委有請主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":15.165,"end":29.699,"text":"范委員好主委好我想請問一下一下因為其實大家今天都在討論有關於半導體的這件事情嘛那其實之前呢總統總統出席外交春宴的時候也有提到說我們要打造一個非紅供應鏈來提升台灣的經濟韌性"},{"start":30.62,"end":52.153,"text":"所以我今天也是要來這邊請教一下主委就是主委在2月15號的時候其實在你的臉書上面也提到說半導體今天有這樣子的成就其實是半世紀以來我們自己努力辛苦取得的絕對不是輕易取自他國所以願意以台灣為基地來協助友善的民主國家來發展晶片設計晶圓製造和封裝測試"},{"start":54.814,"end":71.025,"text":"那剛剛其實主委在對前面的質詢也都有說明這您認為這對我們來說是一個機會對不對是那我想請問一下根據這個機會我們的下一步的發展我們現在有沒有針對這些友善民主國家有一個比較清楚的一個供應鏈的名單呢"},{"start":73.649,"end":95.801,"text":"你說供應鏈就是我們國內的廠商嗎對我跟委員報告我們其實台灣所有的晶片廠商如果將來要發展這個民主供應鏈只要他是台灣設計台灣製造的都是我們的國家隊的隊員那我拜訪了所有的這些台灣重要的這個晶片設計廠商一家一家我都"},{"start":96.963,"end":115.097,"text":"分別跟他們談過每一個廠商其實都非常的樂意跟政府來配合雖然我們的廠商他的這個業務是全世界在佈局的但是其實談到這個對於某些國家他必須要使用這個民主供應鏈的"},{"start":116.918,"end":140.032,"text":"這樣的這個條件的時候我們台灣隊很快的就可以組起來這一點是沒有問題的好我想問一下因為我想大家都比較清楚是台積電他們有說了先進製程還是技術還是留在台灣但是我想大家還是會擔心就是心中的這些您剛講的這些供應鏈他們都覺得非常有興趣但是相關的先進技術還是會以台灣為基地嗎因為我想這是大家最關心的一件事情"},{"start":140.987,"end":167.692,"text":"我們的這個先進製程的半導體晶圓製造的技術研發一定在台灣然後它的這個最先進的這個製程的這個量產也一定在台灣先完成以後才有辦法把它擴散到全球因為這個過程需要非常非常多條件這個條件現在全世界只有台灣是最成熟做的效率最高"},{"start":168.032,"end":184.152,"text":"那我了解就像聽起來就是說即便是我們會去有一些供應鏈他們是會跟著一起到以台灣為基地嘛擴散到全世界這些友善的民主國家但我想來了解一下就是說那有沒有一個相關的規劃時程呢"},{"start":185.289,"end":199.531,"text":"時程現在還不是很明確這個要看看市場的需求因為如果市場在當地的市場沒有很高的需求我們當然就不會說很快的就要全部都去那邊投資所以這種投資的行為一定是產業界自己決定"},{"start":201.633,"end":217.528,"text":"我想我就再講進入下一個主題就是說聯合國在2025年其實他們每一年都會指定特定的主題跟國際年的一個核心目的主要是在聚焦全球的一些關鍵議題還有凝聚國際的共識並且通過教育科學以及文化"},{"start":218.168,"end":234,"text":"來推動一個跨國的一個永續發展那其實每一年的題目都非常的有趣過去我自己有看到就像什麼植物健康年或是永續發展年用創意的經濟來促進這些文化產業的復甦等等的那您知道說今年的主題是什麼嗎"},{"start":235.441,"end":263.939,"text":"就委员有显示了这个对已经谢提了那我想问一下我想这个其实是有特别的纪念意义就是2025年的时候其实就是这一位海森堡他其实在1925年的时候就发表了一个矩阵力学成为现在量子力学的第一个完整理论的描述那到现在已经100年了所以今年就决议来作为百年量子启航的一个历史传承跟未来的展望那其实呢这个里面有一个重点哦"},{"start":264.019,"end":289.057,"text":"有三个重点就是说希望可以提升大众对量子科学科技的一个重要性的认知那第二个呢就是加强跨国与跨领域的合作那第三个就是聚焦量子科学对永续发展的应用那其中呢在这里面呢他还有讲到这个发展的主题他们其实是希望说可以发展这个再生能源技术还有医疗与药物开发以及金融安全与通讯加密"},{"start":289.817,"end":313.819,"text":"我想就是說針對這三個項目博客會現在可能也有一些相關的研究跟主題的一些計畫但是我在今年的業務報告其實是看不太出來是不是有偏重這幾個項目所以我想請教主委就是針對這一個量子力學年我們有沒有相關的一些計畫可不可以簡單說明一下委員這個問題我可不可以請我們資產署處長"},{"start":317.794,"end":335.832,"text":"今天是量子年 那我們物理界跟物理學門 包括物推中心都有辦一系列的活動 總共有七項包括4月12號在台北101有個量子點燈的儀式 大概是這樣 這個活動揭開序幕"},{"start":338.564,"end":351.942,"text":"好我想因為我還是蠻想要了解有沒有一些更詳細的一些計畫啦研究的部分但如果時間有限的話我想就到時候提供給我一些詳細的內容好不好好的那還有就是說其實在2022年呢博客會其實也針對了基礎科學促進發展"},{"start":353.944,"end":381.606,"text":"國際年IYBSSD其實辦過相關的活動那時候還特別邀請到了蔡英文總統來親臨到現場祝福要來講這個紮根科學永續台灣讓更多的民眾了解科學跟永續發展的密不可分那我想針對這一系列的活動呢其實就包含今天的報告裡面其實也都有講到就是說我們其實投入了相當多的一些費用那我先等一下喔"},{"start":384.025,"end":410.29,"text":"我們其實投過了相當多的費用那在世界也取得了不錯的成績到現在其實已經投入了80億那下一步下一步呢就是當我們如何扎根基層就是我們如何把這些研究的實力一磅一磅的傳下去那其實我們有一些科普列車我們也有Kids Science我們也有台灣科技新創基地那我們今年會有相關的活動把這個量子力學放進去嗎"},{"start":411.015,"end":439.95,"text":"好 謝謝委員這樣的建議我們其實在量子國家隊裡面在台大我們有購置IBM的量子運算的設備他們也很努力想要開發一些有關量子運算的科普的基層教育的活動我想也許我們自然處可以來跟台大討論一下看看能不能把這一項加到我們的科普教育裡面"},{"start":440.43,"end":456.615,"text":"好科普教育部分那我想就是科普列車我想爭取一下科普列車啦Kids Science這些其實是對小孩去做這些更基礎的科普的部分是不是也可以一起納入呢有沒有這個機會好在教育的部分我們會努力讓小朋友聽得懂那樣子"},{"start":459.036,"end":476.508,"text":"對那我想就是這個延續下來就是說作為一個負責任的委員然後我們剛爭取了活動項目那我也要想要了解這個預算上是不是可以來支持因為其實在今年我們是史上坎福第一的預算案那我就會想要知道"},{"start":477.048,"end":489.998,"text":"那錢到底在哪裡 因為其實有很多委員都有爭取一些活動嘛那因為根據組織總署呢 其實立法院決議要求636億元由行政院自行調行之那"},{"start":491.747,"end":508.575,"text":"這一切其實我不確定說我們現在主委清楚這些對於國會現在的業務國會的部分我們其實非常感謝我們交融會的委員對我們相當的支持我們受到刪減的部分大概29億多就是統三這其實是統三的部分"},{"start":512.637,"end":532.579,"text":"然後我們的業務費受到的影響比較大就是凍結的部分比例比較高包含園區是希望說我們報告送到委員會來送到立法院希望能夠盡快解凍因為很多的這個規劃在年初就要開始"},{"start":533.26,"end":556.639,"text":"好 我了解是是對 那我想問一下因為其實之前您國客會也有發布在11月27號有一個新聞是因應財化法的修法將會有200億元會受到影響認為這個是對於台灣的科技發展非常非常的不利那這個部分呢其實再加上我們的預算審查的一個結果我想先請教一個第一個問題是"},{"start":558.36,"end":584.974,"text":"之前我們在詢問這個主委的時候其實你有提到說我們希望可以組成一個AI算力國家隊我們要把我們的算力達到480 petafloss在2028年那時候會到亞洲前三全球前十AI的準備度也會到全球前十但AI是全球競爭最重要的一個重點項目大家都在衝那依據這個才化法還有如果以今年的立法院的預算刪減會不會影響你的目標達成呢"},{"start":586.533,"end":611.713,"text":"我們今年在AI算力建設本來一開始在委員會審查之後其實是有受到一些刪減那我也是極力在辯護啦後來有測案所以也非常感謝我們的委員願意支持國科會的這個說法那目前我們今年的預算如果能夠按照"},{"start":615.555,"end":632.906,"text":"這個決議來執行的話今年我們的算力會受到影響會比較小但是我比較重點就是說因為政府的這一點投入會引起民間也願意再投更多的錢所以我相信今年民間的這個投入遠高於這個政府的投入我們台灣的這個排名應該會往前邁進"},{"start":635.267,"end":658.159,"text":"好像才化法的部分會影響嗎才化法是我比較憂心的因為當初立法院通過的時候是決議好像說馬上要執行我就非常擔心會影響到今年那現在才化法如果明年要執行的話我們現在已經在編明年的預算恐怕我們也沒有辦法按照我們現在預計的可以編列讓我們的科技預算"},{"start":659.72,"end":681.769,"text":"穩定的能夠成長所以我當然也是希望說立法院這邊能夠在財化法修正案能夠有在討論的空間能夠讓我們重要的發展因為科技預算是中央政府在主政很難讓地方分散來執行是非常困難希望能夠維持我們科技預算"},{"start":681.869,"end":705.699,"text":"所以簡單來說啦就是說財化法的部分把錢撥到地方之後可能會影響到我們相關的科技研究還有像是我們AI的這些算力的建制嘛對不對對於我們之前講的這些目標達成是的確存在困難的嘛所以我想這個因為財化法其實已經國民黨跟民眾黨已經否決要復議了啦所以基本上就只能靠大家民眾一起來把我們這些"},{"start":707.2,"end":714.826,"text":"主委把這些影響來告訴我們的民眾讓大家知道這個對國家的一些影響這些再請主委多多跟大家來做說明謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":299,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時17分）謝謝召委。有請主委。"],["主席：有請主委備詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：主委好。我想請問一下，因為大家今天都在討論半導體的事情，其實之前總統出席外交部春宴的時候，也有提到我們要打造一個「非紅供應鏈」來提升臺灣的經濟韌性，所以我今天也是要來請教主委，主委在2月15日也在你的臉書上面提到，半導體今天有這樣的成就，其實是半世紀以來我們自己努力辛苦取得的，絕對不是輕易取自他國，所以願意以臺灣為基地，協助友善民主國家發展晶片設計、晶圓製造和封裝測試。剛剛主委對前面質詢的委員也都有說明，您認為這對我們來說是一個機會，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["張委員雅琳：我想請問一下，根據這個機會，我們下一步的發展，現在針對這些友善民主國家，我們有沒有一個比較清楚的供應鏈名單呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：你說供應鏈，是指我們國內的廠商嗎？"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我跟委員報告，其實臺灣所有的晶片廠商，如果將來要發展民主供應鏈，只要他是臺灣設計、臺灣製造的，都是我們國家隊的隊員。我拜訪了所有臺灣重要的晶片設計廠商，我都一家一家分別跟他們談過，每一個廠商其實都非常樂意跟政府配合，雖然我們廠商的業務是全世界在布局的，但是談到對於某些國家必須要使用民主供應鏈這樣的條件的時候，我們臺灣隊很快地就可以組起來，這一點是沒有問題的。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我想問一下，我想大家都比較清楚的是台積電，他們有說了，先進製程、技術還是會留在臺灣。但是我想大家還是會擔心，雖然您剛剛講的那些供應鏈，他們都覺得非常有興趣，但是相關的先進技術還是會以臺灣為基地嗎？因為我想這是大家最關心的一件事情。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的先進製程、半導體晶圓製造的技術，研發一定在臺灣，然後它最先進製程的量產也一定在臺灣先完成以後，才有辦法把它擴散到全球，因為這個過程需要非常非常多條件，這個條件現在全世界只有臺灣最成熟，做的效率最高。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我了解。這樣聽起來就是，我們的一些供應鏈會以臺灣為基地，擴散到全世界這些友善的民主國家，但我想要了解一下，有沒有相關的規劃時程呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：時程現在還不是很明確，這個要看看市場的需求，因為如果當地的市場沒有很高的需求，我們當然就不會很快地全部都去那邊投資，所以這種投資行為一定是產業界自己決定。"],["張委員雅琳：了解。再進入下一個主題，聯合國在2025年，其實它們每一年都會指定特定的主題跟國際年的核心目的，主要是聚焦全球的一些關鍵議題，還有凝聚國際共識，並且透過教育、科學以及文化來推動跨國的永續發展，其實每一年的題目都非常有趣，過去我自己有看到，就像植物健康年或者是永續發展年，用創意的經濟來促進這些文化產業的復甦等等。您知道今年的主題是什麼嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是委員簡報顯示的這個。"],["張委員雅琳：對，已經洩題了。我想問一下，這個其實是有特別的紀念意義，2025年就是這一位海森堡在1925年發表了矩陣力學，成為現在量子力學的第一個完整理論的描述，到現在已經100年了，所以今年就決議作為百年量子啟航的歷史傳承跟未來展望。","這裡面有3個重點：第一個，希望可以提升大眾對量子科技重要性的認知；第二個，加強跨國與跨領域的合作；第三個，聚焦量子科學對永續發展的應用。其中，在這裡面還有講到發展主題，他們其實希望可以發展再生能源技術，還有醫療與藥物開發，以及金融安全與通訊加密。針對這三個項目，國科會現在可能也有一些相關的研究跟主題計畫，但是我在今年的業務報告其實看不太出來是不是有偏重這幾個項目，所以請教主委，針對量子力學年，有沒有一些相關的計畫，可不可以簡單說明一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員，這個問題我可不可以請我們自然處處長？"],["張委員雅琳：可以。"],["賴處長明治：委員好。今年是量子年，我們物理界跟物理學門，包括物推中心，都有辦一系列的活動，總共有7項，包括4月12號在台北101有一個量子點燈的儀式，大概是這樣，這個是為活動揭開序幕。"],["張委員雅琳：因為我還是蠻想要了解有沒有一些更詳細的計畫，就是研究的部分，但如果時間有限的話，到時候提供給我一些詳細的內容，好不好？"],["賴處長明治：好的。"],["張委員雅琳：還有在2022年國科會也針對基礎科學促進發展國際年（IYBSSD）辦過相關的活動，那時候還特別邀請蔡英文總統親臨現場祝福，講到扎根科學、永續臺灣，讓更多民眾了解科學跟永續發展的密不可分。針對這一系列的活動，包含今天的報告裡面也都有講到，就是我們投入了相當多的費用，在世界也取得了不錯的成績，到現在其實已經投入了80億，下一步就是我們如何扎根基層，如何把這些研究實力一棒、一棒的傳下去，我們有一些科普列車、KiSS SCiENCE，也有臺灣科技新創基地，我們今年會有相關的活動把量子力學放進去嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員這樣的建議。我們其實在量子國家隊裡面，在臺大我們有購置IBM的量子運算設備，他們也很努力想要開發一些有關量子運算的科普基層教育活動，我想也許我們自然處可以來跟臺大討論一下，看看能不能把這一項加到我們的科普教育裡面。"],["張委員雅琳：好，對科普教育的部分我想爭取一下，科普列車、KiSS SCiENCE等這些其實是對小孩去做這些更基礎的科普部分，是不是也可以一起納入呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["張委員雅琳：有沒有這個機會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，在教育的部分，我們會努力讓小朋友聽得懂量子。"],["張委員雅琳：對，延續下來，作為一個負責任的委員，我們剛剛爭取了活動項目嘛！我也要想要了解預算上是不是可以支持，因為其實今年是我們史上砍幅第一的預算案，我就會想要知道錢到底在哪裡，因為有很多委員都有爭取一些活動嘛！根據主計總處，立法院決議要求636億元由行政院自行調整之，我不確定主委是否清楚這些對於國科會現在的業務……"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會的部分，我們其實非常感謝教文會的委員對我們相當的支持，我們受到刪減的部分大概二十九億多，這其實是統刪的部分，然後我們的業務費受到的影響比較大，就是凍結部分的比例比較高，包含園區，就是希望我們將報告送到委員會、送到立法院後就能夠儘快解凍，因為很多規劃在年初就要開始。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我了解。我想問一下，因為之前國科會也有在11月27號發布一個新聞是因應財劃法的修法，將會有200億元受到影響，認為這對於臺灣的科技發展非常、非常的不利，這個部分再加上預算審查的結果，我想先請教第一個問題，就是之前我們在詢問主委的時候，你有提到希望可以組成一個AI算力國家隊，要把我們的算力達到480 Petaflops，在2028年那時候會到亞洲前三、全球前十，AI的準備度也會到全球前十。AI是全球競爭最重要的一個重點項目，大家都在衝，依據這個財劃法，還有如果以今年立法院的預算刪減，會不會影響你的目標達成呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們今年在AI算力建置本來一開始在委員會審查之後其實只有受到一些刪減嘛！"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我也是極力在辯護，後來有撤案，所以也非常感謝我們的委員願意支持國科會的說法。目前我們今年的預算如果能夠按照這個決議來執行的話，今年我們的算力受到的影響會比較小，但是比較重要的就是，因為政府的這一點投入會引起民間也願意再投更多的錢，所以我相信今年民間的投入遠高於政府的投入，臺灣的排名應該會往前邁進。"],["張委員雅琳：財劃法的部分會影響嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：財劃法是我比較憂心的，因為當初立法院通過的時候是決議好像馬上要執行，我就非常擔心會影響到今年，現在財劃法如果明年要執行的話，我們現在已經在編明年的預算，恐怕我們也沒有辦法按照我們現在預計的編列，讓科技預算能夠穩定的成長，所以我當然也是希望立法院這邊在財劃法修正案能夠有再討論的空間，能夠讓我們重要的發展……因為科技預算是中央政府在主政，很難分散讓地方來執行，是非常困難，所以希望能夠維持我們科技預算。"],["張委員雅琳：所以簡單來說，財劃法的部分把錢撥到地方之後，可能會影響到我們相關的科技研究，還有像是AI這些算力的建置嘛！對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["張委員雅琳：對於我們之前講的這些目標達成是的確存在困難的嘛！因為財劃法其實國民黨跟民眾黨已經否決覆議了，所以基本上就只能靠民眾大家一起來……透過主委把這些影響告訴我們的民眾，讓大家知道這個對國家的一些影響，這些要請主委多多跟大家說明，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢，主委請回座。","待會在林宜瑾委員質詢後，休息5分鐘。","我們接著繼續質詢，請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}},{"id":"159279","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159279","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbe9aa0707d2b7738ca4d8ee7d728f0553b6aeebfddff728ef303c495862b7e09b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"12:42:34 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謝謝主席我們所有的立院同仁還有我們部會首長大家早安 大家好我們是不是請一下吳主委請吳主委備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":27.503,"end":44.961,"text":"林委員好吳主委您好今天是本席在這個會期的第一次對國科會的一個質詢本席在這邊想要先跟您追蹤一下上個會期的質詢順便藉這個機會有一些提醒我這邊先一兩個重點來跟您"},{"start":45.822,"end":70.92,"text":"探討一下其中一個應該主委還記得本席是原住民的身份所以我都會特別關心原住民在整個科研當中還有在國科會的相關的問題所以我一直還是很感謝您在去年一來到就職之後到本席的辦公室探討的時候我們就有講到在原住民的議題的研究上"},{"start":71.46,"end":86.653,"text":"那過去都只有整合型的計畫那是不是可以開放給個別型那主委在當場就因為我們行話講話所以您也很清楚所以當場就答應給原住民的議題有個別型的研究"},{"start":87.433,"end":111.335,"text":"非常感謝這一點後來在執行的時候就有一個狀況發生了其實當時我這樣一個想法是希望我們在原住民議題的研究上有更大的空間但是會裡面在執行的時候我不知道是變異形式還是沒有想到所以你們在開了個別型研究的同時還是希望"},{"start":111.815,"end":131.321,"text":"在個別型還有整合型通通都在族群研究的架構下去做處理這個部分是不是可以請主委在今年或未來的研究上當您開放是個別型請不要再用一個主題或研究的方向把這樣一個研究的題材給限縮住那我覺得這樣對原住民"},{"start":132.521,"end":148.282,"text":"身份的或原住民議題的研究上可以有更寬廣的空間是不是可以請主席研擬一下謝謝委員 今天我了解一下但是我認為我們原住民的學者他不一定要研究原住民的主題的"},{"start":149.203,"end":170.188,"text":"這就是我的意思啊所以你們因為這個什麼族群關係的這個主題下那變成原住民的學者也好非原住民的學者也好在原住民的議題上都必須要研究族群關係那其實也很難再跳脫原住民這個框架的議題這是我的意思那請主委了解一下那是不是就我提的這個部分再做一些研討"},{"start":171.808,"end":191.524,"text":"好 謝謝另外第二個部分是我們在談到國科會的資金分配公立大學跟私立大學的一個差異我想主委那時候也很有同感因為您的背景上對私立大學也略有所知這個部分我可能再提醒一下希望在這個會期我們能夠有更往前的一些進度我們已經規劃"},{"start":193.005,"end":219.256,"text":"應該已經公布了就是今年開始我們計劃申請我們會增加這個第一就是私立大學就是不會資源全部都是在國立然後我們技職體系當然原住民剛剛講的那個是沒有問題我們都按照委員的這個意思我們都擴大了所以資源就不會集中在少數的學校"},{"start":219.676,"end":229.7,"text":"好 謝謝也很高興至少這樣一個開啟那是不是請會內把相關的資訊也給我讓我再檢視一下是不是跟我們所講的這個方向是一致的好 謝謝主委接下來議題就最近的幾個議題來做討論"},{"start":235.402,"end":242.385,"text":"那第二個部分就是中科二期擴建求證補償協商的這個爭議那當然這中間可能已經有一些過程那這個最主要就是這個新榮球場1750張的這個求證補償爭議也可能有點過久那大家集體的這個不滿那在先前3月7號的時候呢又到中科院這邊去抗議那所以在這個中科院"},{"start":260.574,"end":274.066,"text":"還有這個國科會的這個處理上感覺好像反映的這個整個制度的漏洞還有社會公平性的這個問題那我這邊先說明一下我關注的這個重點那當然在這個中科院管理局一直強調求員這個這個 對不起求證的補償"},{"start":278.189,"end":296.771,"text":"是會員之間與公司之間的私權關係不屬於政府補償的範圍但是我這邊談可能提醒一下當我們有國家推動比較重大的科技建設需要架構土地等等那土地的取得不僅法律程序要完備"},{"start":297.472,"end":319.369,"text":"那對周遭民眾跟原權益人的信賴保護還有社會和諧的這個維繫我想是這件事情的一個重點那目前看起來經過好多次的協商這邊的資料是九次那協商會議中好像也有所謂的口頭承諾但是這中間好像進展上很慢那興隆公司現在僅"},{"start":320.45,"end":338.468,"text":"想要退還每一張求證14萬的保證金但是有求證的民眾對於新農所開出來的條件跟他們的期待有很大的差異我想要了解一下主委對這件事情在補償爭議上跟科技開發產生的社會對立的這樣一個狀況您怎麼看法"},{"start":345.563,"end":371.762,"text":"我們覺得這個並不能太廣泛講就是社會對立因為這個是少數的人跟那個興隆集團這邊他們在這個算是一種買賣嘛那對於這個這個他們不同意的這個金額如果想要變成是要全民來負擔這個我們並沒有依法無據啦這個對我們來講那我請我們那個中科局長也來解釋一下"},{"start":373.149,"end":393.479,"text":"不好意思喔 那是不是因為時間的關係我提一個重點啦主委您講的也是但是我提一個以前經常有的狀況像有一些博物館在建置的時候那常常都沒有注意到附近的民眾縱使您說是少數人可是這件事情就在於我們為了國家政策的這個開發是 我們絕對照顧民眾權益"},{"start":397.201,"end":424.158,"text":"對 對 對產生的這個影響然後也一定因為有一點時間所以這個部分是不是可以再更積極的作為然後當然您說沒有這個社會正義公義或社會對立的這個問題但是少部分人有這樣子的狀況然後期待跟能夠做的有一些落差那是不是會裡面也可以再更積極的做一些處理我們不敢說介入啦但是積極的處理讓大家的共識能夠稍微再更近一點是不是有這個"},{"start":424.918,"end":438.573,"text":"可能性跟機會那對於那個背景我們大概都有一些了解啦那感謝那個中科這邊可能要做一個解釋只是時間的關係是不是請惠里再多加一些研議呢然後能夠減少這樣一個問題"},{"start":441.339,"end":461.576,"text":"好 謝謝委員謝謝主委那我相信接下來最後一個就是大家也都非常關心那整個台積電赴美以後的狀況各方論述都有那這邊我們當然背景我這邊簡單介紹一下台積電雖然在台灣目前還有11條生產線的這個選址那當然也都還在推動那第二個部分是他們也談到"},{"start":462.857,"end":480.932,"text":"雖然您剛才有一些論述那AI產業鏈擴張的產業佈局所以也有部分需要在海外投資但是海外投資的動向跟國內產業鏈的一個穩定性也是我們整個國家經濟命脈跟產業安全的重要議題所以這邊我其實要討論的是"},{"start":483.434,"end":494.656,"text":"對於政府是不是有足夠的產業前瞻視野然後跟我們現在直接已經有碰到的土地資源調度的能力來承接這一波關鍵投資的這個機會您的看法呢"},{"start":495.256,"end":518.801,"text":"我們的確是有信心也很努力在做這個事情所以我覺得台積電不管是在台灣持續發展將來碰到這個寶盒的時候舊廠一定會翻新變成未來的新廠所以這個循環使用因為我們人力資源都有限將來它如果持續成長一定會往海外擴展這個也是必然的事實政府都會來協助"},{"start":520.543,"end":540.131,"text":"那我再提醒一點就是說你們經常在講說那這樣子的議題像科學園區的擴建跟產業用地的這個問題其實還是有某一種程度的被動跟分散所以當南科屏東園區跟農壇在規劃的時候那這個部分呢你們常常都等待地方政府提案"},{"start":540.911,"end":566.27,"text":"有沒有可能再更積極一點來處理呢也不是等待地方政府地方政府也可以主動來規劃來選合適的地方對他們施政容易的但是我們重點就是我們的科技產業的發展也要適合所以我們的這個科學園區的這個選址一定會基於產業的需求這是第一個要件產業需求他覺得這塊地符合的話"},{"start":568.672,"end":591.836,"text":"那中央政府各部會搭配的地方政府就共同來推動這樣好的那您談到這個核心問題所以我這邊做一個提醒我們希望這個建制產業園區的時候雖然您說也會考慮到很多個面向但是我希望不要因為政黨的色彩來決定選址的一個隕落好嗎不會所以我們現在台中這個園區還有農產我們同步在進行當中謝謝這個謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":926,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（12時42分）謝謝主席。所有的立院同仁，還有部會首長，大家早安，大家好。是不是請一下吳主委？"],["主席：請吳主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：吳主委您好。今天是本席在這個會期第一次對國科會的質詢，本席在這邊想要先跟您追蹤一下上個會期的質詢，也順便藉這個機會有一些提醒，我這邊先就一兩個重點來跟您探討一下。","其中一個，主委應該還記得本席是原住民的身分，所以我都會特別關心原住民在整個科研當中，還有在國科會的相關問題。我很感謝您在去年一就職之後，到本席辦公室探討的時候，我們就有講到在原住民的議題研究上，過去都只有整合型計畫，是不是可以開放給個別型？因為我們行話講話，您也很清楚，所以當場就答應給原住民的議題有個別型的研究，非常感謝這一點。","不過後來在執行的時候就有一個狀況發生了，其實當時我這樣的想法是希望我們在原住民議題的研究上有更大的空間，但是會裡面在執行的時候，我不知道是便宜行事還是沒有想到，所以你們在開了個別型研究的同時，還是希望個別型還有整合型統統都在族群研究的架構下處理，這個部分是不是可以請主委在今年或未來的研究上，當您開放是個別型，請不要再用一個主題或研究方向把這個研究的題材給限縮住，我覺得這樣原住民身分的或原住民議題的研究上可以有更寬廣的空間，是不是可以請主委這邊研擬一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員的建議，我瞭解一下，但是我認為原住民的學者他不一定要研究原住民的主題……"],["林委員倩綺：這就是我的意思啊！你們因為聚焦在族群關係的這個主題下，變成原住民的學者也好，非原住民的學者也好，在原住民的議題上都必須要研究族群關係，其實也很難再跳脫原住民這個框架的議題，這就是我的意思。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：請主委瞭解一下，是不是就我提的這個部分再做一些研討？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。","另外，我們再談到國科會的資金分配，公立大學與私立大學的差異，我想主委那時候也很有同感，因為您的背景上對私立大學也略有所知，這個部分我可能再提醒一下，希望在這個會期我們能夠有更往前的一些進度。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們已經規劃，應該已經公布了。"],["林委員倩綺：有一些規劃了嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們已經公布了，今年開始我們計畫申請，我們會增加第一就是私立大學，不會資源全部都是在國立。"],["林委員倩綺：好的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：然後是技職體系，當然原住民剛剛講的那個沒有問題，我們都按照委員的意思，我們都擴大了，所以資源就不會集中在少數的學校。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。很高興至少有這樣子開啟，是不是請會內把相關的資訊也給我？我再檢視一下是不是跟我們所講的方向是一致的，好，謝謝主委。","接下來我就最近的幾個議題來討論，第二個部分就是中科二期擴建球證補償協商的爭議，當然這中間可能你們已經有一些過程，最主要就是興農球場1,750張球證補償爭議可能有點過久，引發大家集體的不滿，先前在3月7日的時候又到中科管理局去抗議，所以在中科管理局還有國科會的處理上，感覺好像反映了整個制度的漏洞與社會公平性的問題。","我這邊先說明一下我關注的重點，當然中科管理局一直強調球證的補償是會員與公司之間的私權關係，不屬於政府補償的範圍，但是我這邊可能提醒一下，當我們國家在推動比較重大的科技建設需要價購土地等等，在土地的取得不僅法律程序要完備，對周遭民眾及原權益人的信賴保護，還有社會和諧的維繫，我想是這件事情的一個重點。","目前看起來經過好多次的協商，我這邊的資料是9次，協商會議中好像也有所謂的口頭承諾，但是這中間好像進展很慢，興農公司現在想要退還每一張球證14萬的保證金，但是有球證的民眾認為興農開出來的條件跟他們的期待有很大的差異。我想要瞭解一下，主委對這件事情在補償爭議上跟科技開發產生社會對立的一個狀況，您有什麼看法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們覺得這個並不能太廣泛講就是社會對立，因為這是少數的人跟興農集團這邊，他們算是一種買賣嘛！對於他們不同意的這個金額，如果又變成要全民來負擔，對我們來講是於法無據啦！我請中科局長來解釋一下。"],["林委員倩綺：不好意思，因為時間的關係，我提一個重點啦！主委，你講的也是，但是我提一個以前經常有的狀況，像有一些博物館在建置的時候，常常都沒有注意到附近的民眾，縱使您說是少數人，可是這件事情就在於我們為了國家政策的這個開發……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們絕對照顧民眾權益。"],["林委員倩綺：對、對、對，產生的這個影響，然後因為有一點時間，所以這個部分是不是可以再更積極地作為？當然您說沒有社會公益或社會對立的問題，但是少部分人有這樣子的狀況，然後期待跟能夠做的有一些落差，是不是會裡面可以再更積極地做一些處理？我們不敢說介入啦！但是積極地處理，讓大家的共識能夠稍微再更近一點，是不是有這個可能性跟機會？對於那個背景我們大概都有一些瞭解，感謝中科這邊可能也要做一個解釋，只是時間的關係，是不是請會裡再多加研議，然後能夠減少這樣一個問題？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝主委。","接下來最後一個議題，我相信大家都非常關心台積電赴美以後的狀況，各方論述都有，背景我這邊簡單介紹一下，台積電在臺灣目前還有11條生產線的選址，當然也都還在推動。第二個部分是他們也談到，您剛才也有一些論述，就是AI產業鏈擴張的產業布局也有部分需要在海外投資，但是海外投資的動向及國內產業鏈的穩定性，也是我們整個國家經濟命脈跟產業安全的重要議題。所以這邊我其實要討論的是，政府是不是有足夠的產業前瞻視野，以及我們現在直接已經有碰到的土地資源調度能力，來承接這一波關鍵投資的機會？您的看法呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們的確是有信心，也很努力在做這件事情，我覺得台積電不管是在臺灣持續發展，將來碰到飽和的時候，舊廠一定會翻新變成未來的新廠，所以這個是循環使用。因為我們人力、資源都有限，將來它如果持續成長，一定會往海外擴展，這個也是必然的事實，政府都會來協助。"],["林委員倩綺：好，我再提醒一點，你們經常在說這樣子的議題，科學園區的擴建及產業用地的問題其實還是有某一種程度的被動和分散，所以當南科、屏東園區跟龍潭在規劃的時候，這個部分你們常常都等待地方政府提案，有沒有可能更積極一點來處理呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是，也不是等待地方政府提案，地方政府也可以主動規劃來選合適的地方，對他們施政容易的，但是我們的重點就是科技產業的發展也要適合，所以科學園區的選址一定會基於產業的需求，這是第一個要件，產業需求它覺得這塊地符合的話，中央政府各部會就搭配地方政府共同來推動。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，您談到這個核心問題，所以我這邊做一個提醒，我們希望建置產業園區的時候，雖然您說也會考慮到很多個面向，但是我希望不要因為政黨的色彩來決定選址的允諾，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會，現在臺中這個園區還有龍潭，我們同步在進行當中。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員的質詢。"],["林委員倩綺：好，那就請……"],["主席：因為時間的關係，是不是請主委再書面予以回復？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：主委請回座。","接下來我們繼續質詢，請羅明才委員質詢，羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，關於今天會議作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄，並刊登公報；對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。","報告委員會，今天議程處理完畢，現在休息，謝謝各位。","休息（12時53分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}},{"id":"159278","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159278","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb1b607d8ae0f65b29fc70f51a359b58cfb6aeebfddff728efd02345ff075ccb485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:41:58 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陳主委委員長主委好 主委其實今天很多委員都不斷強調一個部分就是剛才提到的金職獎那我想確認一下金職獎剛才聽到如果說4月底前解凍那是有機會辦如果4月底前沒有解凍的話有可能會停辦這樣的理解是真的嗎"},{"start":34.928,"end":63.458,"text":"所以如果是這樣的話那金子獎對於工程品質他過去是有很多提升的貢獻其實剛才我也不斷的在強調他是國內工程界被視為最高榮譽的獎項所以很多施工單位為了要拼出這個金子獎他們不斷的在對自己的這個做法提供優質永續的公共工程所以他們不斷的在努力就是希望有得到這個獎這個肯定對這些公司企業都是很大的幫助"},{"start":64.258,"end":89.138,"text":"所以我擔心的是說如果金紙箱這種激勵的金刺如果不見的話加上監理的資源減少那可能會導致一些工程品質甚至會下滑特別是在高風險的嘉義山區的地區的這些建設有什麼措施這個主委你可以想一下有什麼措施可以維持我們的品質的標準有沒有什麼其他的方式或者是在現行的狀況之下我們能做什麼"},{"start":90.499,"end":107.412,"text":"這個公共建設工程會可以去考核去督導那全國各縣市都有這樣的工程那如果是中央的工程或是中央補助的工程都可以去所以我們有查核小組等等但是這些業務會也動了一半"},{"start":108.401,"end":134.909,"text":"這些業務費也動了所以比方說我們查核的對象全國7700億這些業務費動了一半之後很簡單的計算就是有3400億左右我們沒辦法不知道沒有那些業務費包括包括查集包括什麼都沒有辦法沒辦法去做所以會當然去激活的次數可能會順延那也許就是會慢一點我想這個是也無可奈何"},{"start":135.709,"end":156.516,"text":"所以我想還要確認一下被凍結的影響因為前一陣子我們嘉義大埔地震其實不是嘉義大埔台南也是地震那對我們這些嘉義山區的重要的一些公共工程可能會造成衝擊現在有沒有知道是哪一些可能急需但是被延宕的防災工程有沒有這方面的了解從台南到嘉義一帶"},{"start":158.511,"end":172.391,"text":"這次的地震因為嘉義跟台南的部分屬於地方管的公共工程那麼地方都已經篩準已經夠都已經在執行公共工程的部分中央0121這個地震"},{"start":174.494,"end":190.977,"text":"中央的補助還沒有那只有有的是學校有的高中或國中教育部會來協助那這一次比較嚴重的那些平常都是土葛柱有一些磚瓦房的秦島或者是那些你要有正年紀嘛"},{"start":191.778,"end":219.471,"text":"你烘焙那個年間瓜那些窯啊有受到一些影響這部分我們正透過政災基金會的錢看能不能來協助啦那島市呢之前的地震嘉義的確是受損嚴重啦凱米颱風也好那麼很多山區的預算我們也去看過所以我的意思是說我們預算不多啦凍結了一半但是影響所及是放大了很多倍的影響"},{"start":220.717,"end":240.648,"text":"所以我這個地方還是要請主委能夠更重視我們這個嘉義特別是大埔地區就是受到地震的影響剛才提到的震災基金會的部分那也希望能夠加速就是加寬那當然還是能夠來協助我們的這一個受震災的影響的範圍其實"},{"start":242.549,"end":269.233,"text":"近期從台南到嘉義從大埔鄉其實在更之前中埔鄉也有地震中大型的地震那導致很多國中國小那這些校舍都有受到影響所以我們為什麼會這麼重視中央的預算凍結的部分能夠盡速能夠超越之間想一個方法來把它解凍或者是說把預算的部分找出一個方法我們能夠把這些東西解套"},{"start":269.733,"end":296.062,"text":"那因為是對我們這個防災也好或者是這些工程也好都是非常重要的所以還是希望主委能夠在這個地方來承諾這個對嘉義山區還有台南特別是我們這個真溫水庫周遭的區域這幾個地方這些重要的防災工程的監理絕對不可以打折扣這個不可以跟我們嘉義鄉親台南鄉親都做一個具體的這個承諾"},{"start":298.195,"end":319.127,"text":"我們會全力來支援或協助針對這個去年1月21號大埔跟台南尤其水庫旁邊的這些比較弱勢的房子我們也持續在跟兩個縣市政府在談當中會全力來協助好謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":876,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時42分）我們請主委。"],["主席：陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委好。主委，其實今天有很多委員都不斷強調一個部分，就是剛才提到的金質獎啦！我想確認一下，剛才聽到如果說4月底前解凍，金質獎是有機會辦，如果4月底前沒有解凍的話，有可能會停辦，這樣的理解是真的嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：是的。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，如果是這樣的話，因為金質獎對於工程品質在過去是有很多提升的貢獻，其實剛才有委員不斷地在強調，它是國內工程界被視為最高榮譽的獎項，所以很多施工單位為了要拚出這個金質獎，他們不斷地在對自己的作法提供優質永續的公共工程，他們不斷地在努力就是希望得到這個獎的肯定，對這些公司企業也都是很大的幫助，所以我擔心的是說，金質獎這一種激勵的機制如果不見的話，加上監理的資源減少，可能會導致一些工程品質下滑，特別是在高風險的嘉義山區的這些建設，主委，你可以想一下，有什麼措施可以維持我們品質的標準？有沒有什麼其他的方式，或者是在現行的狀況之下我們能做什麼？"],["陳主任委員金德：對於公共建設，工程會可以去考核去督導，在全國各縣市都有這樣的工程，如果是中央的工程或是中央補助的工程都可以去，所以我們有查核小組等等，但是這些業務費也凍了一半。"],["陳委員冠廷：這些業務費也凍了。"],["陳主任委員金德：也有一半，所以比方說我們查核的對象全國有7,700億，這些業務費凍了一半之後，很簡單的計算就是說有3,800億左右我們沒辦法，沒有那些業務費，包括車資包括什麼都沒辦法去做，當然去稽核的次數可能會順延，也許就是會慢一點，我想這個也是無可奈何。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我還想要確認一下被凍結的影響，因為前一陣子我們嘉義大埔地震，其實不只嘉義大埔，臺南也是地震哦！對於我們嘉義山區重要的一些公共工程可能會造成衝擊，現在有沒有知道哪一些可能急需但是被延宕的防災工程？有沒有這方面的瞭解？從臺南到嘉義一帶。"],["陳主任委員金德：這一次的地震因為嘉義跟臺南的部分屬於地方管的公共工程，地方的災準金夠，都已經在執行。公共工程的部分，0121這個地震中央的補助還沒有，有的只有學校，有高中或國中，教育部會來協助。","這一次比較嚴重的這些，平常就是土角厝，有一些磚瓦房的傾倒，或者是你那裡有種龍眼，在烘焙龍眼乾的那些窯有受到一些影響，這部分我們正透過賑災基金會的錢看能不能來協助。倒是之前的地震，嘉義的確是受損嚴重啦！凱米颱風也好，很多山區的預算我們也去看過，我的意思是說，我們的預算不多啦！凍結了一半，但是影響所及是放大了很多倍的影響。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我在這個地方還是要請主委能夠更重視我們嘉義，特別是大埔地區受到地震的影響，剛才提到了賑災基金會的部分，希望能夠加速、加寬來協助我們受震災影響的範圍。","近期從臺南到嘉義大埔鄉，其實在更之前中埔鄉也有地震，中大型的地震導致很多國中、國小的校舍都受到影響，為什麼我們會這麼重視中央預算凍結的部分，希望朝野之間能夠儘速想一個方法來把它解凍，或者是在預算的部分找出一個方法把這些東西解套？因為這對我們的防災也好，或者是一些工程也好，都是非常重要的，所以還是希望主委能夠在這個地方承諾，對嘉義山區還有臺南，特別是曾文水庫周遭的區域，這幾個地方重要的防災工程的監理絕對不可以打折扣，可不可以跟我們嘉義鄉親、臺南鄉親做一個具體的承諾？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會全力來支援或協助，針對去年1月21日……"],["陳委員冠廷：嘉義大埔、臺南，對。"],["陳主任委員金德：大埔跟臺南，尤其水庫旁邊這些比較弱勢的房子，我們也持續與兩個縣市政府在談當中，會全力來協助。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員。","接下來徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員不在。","陳雪生委員、陳雪生委員、陳雪生委員不在。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請公共工程委員會儘速以書面答復。","今天謝謝各位委員、各位官員，我們會議結束，散會。","散會（12時48分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},{"id":"159277","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159277","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb8bed81aff5acef37fc70f51a359b58cfb6aeebfddff728ef92aeab3b46f231cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:31:11 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請陳主委李博弈 李博弈 廖三輩 廖豐國在委員長 主委早我看你會不會一直人在問你這個公共工程金職獎這個事情其實你做過地方委員你才知道凍結要解凍是很容易的事情啊而且長久以來你印象中有凍結的案子到後來沒有解凍的嗎"},{"start":38.908,"end":42.065,"text":"你到底會做到過這高雄市的副市長做宜蘭縣的"},{"start":43.513,"end":69.549,"text":"你印象中有凍結的案子後來沒有解凍的嗎主要是兩件事第一個從來沒有說要求議員會同意使得凍資這件事情立法院也許從南京成立立法院到現在查一下看看有沒有說要求到議員會去解凍的很多其實有啦你有誤解了有有立法院送到議員會解凍的很多"},{"start":72.372,"end":88.309,"text":"那第二個就是說平常我們在委員會內大家都很熟識業務很瞭解那委員們也認真審查這個業務所以在委員會解凍溝通很容易啦所以才不會去真正去嚴肅去"},{"start":89.79,"end":110.897,"text":"想說解凍這件事情合憲或合法在委員會是OK啦講一下所以如果那麼嚴肅提高到院會來決定我們看611之前新司法院會能夠審理的只有幾項宣戰、構合、預算法案及其他國家重要事項所以難道我們要求工程會"},{"start":112.037,"end":138.002,"text":"一億或幾千萬的解凍案算要報到院會去解凍屬國家重大事項嗎這份倒是其實每一年啊都有一些案子是送到院會去要求解凍老蔣也非常簡單沒有困難我就看了你這個案子最重要是你你被凍結的理由是什麼如果是合理的又很簡單的你就不能夠好像是情的讓我們那些民間團體"},{"start":139.793,"end":149.538,"text":"覺得說好像是立法院去砍了他的預算啊你應該把它交代清楚啊你知道你這邊為什麼你的業務費被凍結了50%你沒看那個按鈕注意 你知道你為什麼被凍了50%嗎你應該去看提案啊這個提案很容易解開啊我點給你聽啦 來 看這個"},{"start":166.435,"end":176.363,"text":"上一張來上一張給主委看一下來來來解凍的條件你看清楚了嗎來為什麼會凍了公共工程業務費為什麼會凍了50%因為根據112年審計部的審計報告上面說的他說什麼他說你們公共工程這個資料庫沒有提供結標的價格對應的標的資訊跟底價的金額"},{"start":196.411,"end":202.874,"text":"他要你這個提出來啊因為這通過 因為這很困難對不對這個難做嗎 甘不難受第一 審計部的決算報告標是合理"},{"start":212.128,"end":228.533,"text":"合情有需要嘛 對不對所以他要求用這個理由要你做這件事情合理嘛他要你解凍的理由很簡單啊你就照這樣做把這個資料庫建立起來送到立法院來報告這個很簡單啊對你來說可能一天就做好事了是不是"},{"start":240.055,"end":259.552,"text":"齁 所以 四位我們知道你很努力 你也為了動50%在堅固 我知道啦問題你如果把這個提案內容弄清楚好不好你會怎麼說啊 你說你很努力要解凍對不對你趕快把這個案子這幾天就做好了嘛啊有兩個管道嘛 你看我們的"},{"start":260.475,"end":274.144,"text":"你交通委員會這麼幸運 你有這麼英明 理性的召委林國成在這裡你拜託他稍微去拜啊 但是你也拜託韓院長稍微去拜啊是不是 這個有困難嗎 會不會 不會嘛報告委員就是說 我剛剛講過 院會來處理委員會審查過的預算"},{"start":282.583,"end":311.698,"text":"是還要同意使得動之這件事情的確是很少見啦也很難執行我坦白講到現在為止貴院大院都還沒有明確說這個關於預算院會同意使得動之這件事情來教導行政院教我們應該怎麼提案 教導不敢啦 不過你人言那好 你現在去找韓院長或者是提出來 我跟你講立法院這個事情也不會拖啦我給大家看一個資料"},{"start":315.161,"end":326.608,"text":"這個我列這個資料你們一定有印象113年啊被凍結的預算交通部傻傻一餅他在什麼時候解凍大家知道嗎4月18號"},{"start":329.628,"end":354.317,"text":"4月18號交通這個決議叫什麼113年度中央政府總計算管理交通部主管凍結案有多少股尼113年度31項一天在交通委員會開完會就解凍啦解凍因為是宴會交下來了嘛親同意動資提報宴會交通部有31項就過啦你公共工程委員會股尼應該也有凍結啊你是幾個案過來審完就過啦"},{"start":356.874,"end":384.565,"text":"那更不要講院會啦 院會到時候一定是把你你凍結最主要就是這個業務費嘛 對不對我都要講過啦 審計部要求的事情對他來說很簡單的啊那我看你的工作同仁應該很強啊你交代一下這個案子 明天就你好啦應該是4月18號以前 應該可能就解凍了吧所以第一個不用擔心你們有好的招委立法院也一定會盡速去通過嘛其實重點 我今天要強調喔"},{"start":387.22,"end":410.617,"text":"內容要看因為審計部為什麼這樣要求立法院為什麼要這樣要求啊我剛剛講的嘛 你也點頭嘛 對不對他的要求是合情合理合法嘛 對不對啊對人家講很容易做嘛那就趕快做啊你來這邊不是一直在解決你是在解決問題了啊不是一直在解釋問題或者製造問題啊好不好先弄到民間連那個金詞獎金詞獎已經辦了幾屆了二十四屆第一屆五屆這樣你如果照預算法的規定"},{"start":416.093,"end":438.331,"text":"我們的總預算到現在還沒完全過總統還沒公告預算法裡面有明定啊 法定的預算啊延續性的預算本來就可以延續啊你已經說24屆判25為什麼不行我今年是算第25屆所以預算指的是今年的預算他就是要延續性的嘛尤其這不能反對啦僅此講這麼好的一個獎項 對不對"},{"start":442.349,"end":453.105,"text":"他如果是特優我看那個特優他以後去外面那個比價的時候他那個底標省二分之一耶對不對而且都很有榮耀啊總統還頒獎啊"},{"start":454.844,"end":476.373,"text":"好不好所以 聽他講 聽他講第一個 你趕快把案子提出來因為很容易嘛 我都已經提案內容了嘛然後趕快送上去 我認為院會很快就會通過所以對外不要再講什麼金職獎沒辦法辦了你今天就清清楚楚跟他們講金職獎不只會辦 會辦得比以前更好我剛才已經有說明了 就是說如果4月底之前"},{"start":477.753,"end":499.108,"text":"預算能夠獲得解凍 那金職獎繼續辦如果10月底之前預算沒有解凍 那金職獎今年恐怕沒辦法辦另外我跟委員報告就是說以這個黨團提案然後說主決議是院會同意時的動之這件事情完全百分之百侵犯了委員會的權責"},{"start":500.686,"end":515.126,"text":"委員會所有的預算在委員會已經審閉了包括凍結凍結這是第一個我們最好不要經常有這樣的東西主委這沒有切換啊這歷年來的立法院就是這樣運作啊有些送到委員會凍結解凍啊有些送到立法院主決議通常是委員會通常主"},{"start":517.569,"end":546.731,"text":"主席通常是同意委員會所提的說委員會解凍那第二個就是很重視你們工程會所以才會送到院會嘛不過最重要其實我剛才說的內容合情合理合法而且很快啦我再跟你講一個觀念我們再溝通一個觀念事實上每一年凍結案都很多我剛才說大概113年度高中報的31例對不對我剛才還特別請那個指揮你回想一下你當過立法委員有凍結案後來沒有解凍的嗎"},{"start":548.752,"end":573.659,"text":"非常少耶我印象中只有一次啦賴清德因為國民黨去動了那個公共電視的那個那個預算啦因為賴清德那時候賴總統是那個幹事長他不願意簽那個解凍後來公視跟一些人民團體就在報紙上登了一個廣告要賴清德賴幹事長要解凍只有賴比其他一定如期嘛所以你不要擔心你的什麼金字獎沒辦法辦啦另外我給大家看一下"},{"start":578.228,"end":605.95,"text":"今年啊 凍結的凍結的這個比例啊佔總預算的4.6%我說我從90年開始算那時候你已經在內閣啦90年開始算有8次都比今年的凍結比例都還高了你就算金額有4年比今年都還高啊我剛才講了都解凍啦所以我拜託一下一方面我是會說這幾天包括行政院長帶著部會首長下去就會講說什麼凍結沒辦法做"},{"start":608.189,"end":624.186,"text":"以前就沒有這個問題啊這是第一個我今天要特別強調的第二個你一直在擔心你的金職獎因為我昨天看了報紙還登了大大一個版你趕快給我們優秀的優良的那些建商獎金職獎沒有問題好不好OK好謝謝好主委謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":833,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時31分）請主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：主委早。我看早上一直有人在問你公共工程金質獎這件事情，其實你當過立法委員，你應該知道凍結要解凍是很容易的事情啊！而且長久以來，你印象中有凍結的案子到後來沒有解凍的嗎？你當立委這麼久，當高雄市副市長，當宜蘭縣代理縣長，有嗎？你印象中有凍結的案子後來沒有解凍的嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，主要是兩件事，第一個，從來沒有說要求院會同意始得動支這件事情，也許從南京成立立法院到現在，查一下，看看有沒有說要求立法院解凍……"],["張委員啓楷：有、有、有，主委，到院會去解凍的很多，其實有啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：然後那個困難度是很高。"],["張委員啓楷：你有誤解，有、有、有，立法院送到院會解凍的很多，其實很多，你查一下，你叫你的同仁回去查一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：第二個就是說，平常我們在委員會內大家都很熟識，業務很瞭解，委員們也認真審查這個業務，所以在委員會解凍溝通很容易啦！所以才不會真正嚴肅去想解凍這件事情合憲或合法，在委員會是OK，講一下，如果那麼嚴肅提高到院會來決定，我們看立法院職權行使法，院會能夠審議的只有幾項，包括宣戰、媾和、預算、法案及其他國家重要事項，難道我們要求工程會1億或幾千萬的解凍案報到院會去解凍是屬國家重大事項嗎？這部分倒是要好好……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你可以回去看，其實每一年都有一些案子是送到院會去要求解凍，老實講也非常簡單沒有困難，我去看了你這個案子，最重要是你被凍結的理由是什麼，如果是合理的又很簡單的，你就不能夠好像是情勒，讓那些民間團體覺得好像是立法院去砍了它的預算，你應該把它交代清楚啊！你知道這一次為什麼你的業務費被凍結了50%嗎？你有沒有看那個案由？"],["陳主任委員金德：就是組織定位嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你知道你為什麼被凍了50%嗎？你可以去看提案，這個提案很容易解開啊！我唸給你聽，主委看一下簡報，解凍的條件你看清楚了嗎？來！公共工程業務費為什麼會凍了50%？因為根據112年審計部的審計報告上面說的，它說什麼？它說你們公共工程這個資料庫沒有提供決標價格對應的標比資訊跟底價金額，它要你提出來，院會就通過，主委，這個會很困難嗎？這個很難做嗎？會很難做嗎？第一個，審計部的決算報告欸！表示合理合情，有需要嘛！對不對？主委，沒錯嘛！審計部的要求，對不對？所以它要求凍，用這個理由要你做這件事情，合理嘛！審計部要求的嘛！第二個，它要你……"],["陳主任委員金德：這個決標……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你聽我講，它要你解凍的理由很簡單，你就照這樣做，把資料庫建立起來，送到立法院來報告，這個很簡單啊！對你來說可能一天就做好了，是不是？所以主委，我當然知道你很努力，你也為了凍50%在難過，我知道啦！問題是你如果把這個提案內容弄清楚，你可以這樣說啊！你說你很努力要解凍，對不對？你趕快把這個案子，這個一兩天就做好了嘛！有兩個管道嘛！你看我們的交通委員會這麼幸運，你有這麼英明理性的召委林國成在這裡，你拜託他接下來快排啊！第二，你可以拜託韓院長接下來快排啊！是不是？這個有困難嗎？會不會？不會嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，我剛剛講過，院會來處理委員會審查過的預算還要同意始得動支這件事情，的確是很少見，也很難執行，我坦白講，到現在為止，貴院、大院都還沒有明確就預算經院會同意始得動支這件事情來教導行政院，教我們應該怎麼提案。"],["張委員啓楷：教導不敢啦！不過主委你人緣這麼好，你現在去找韓院長或者是提出來，我跟你講，立法院對這件事情也不會拖啦！","我給大家看一個資料，我唸這個資料你們一定有印象，113年被凍結的預算在交通部有31筆，它在什麼時候解凍大家知道嗎？4月18日，4月18日哦！這個決議叫什麼？113年度中央政府總預算案關於交通部主管，凍結案有多少？去年113年度有31項，一天在交通委員會開完會就解凍啦！解凍，因為是院會交下來了嘛！經同意動支，提報院會，交通部的31項就過啦！你公共工程委員會去年應該也有凍結，你也是幾個案過來，審完就過啦！更不要講院會，院會到時候一定是把你解凍，你凍結最主要就是這個業務費，對不對？我剛才說過了，審計部要求的；第二個，對你來說很簡單啊！我看你的同仁工作能力應該很強，你交代一下，這個案子明天就擬好啦！應該是4月18日以前可能就解凍了嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：這個就是過……"],["張委員啓楷：所以第一個，不用擔心，你們有好的召委，立法院也一定會儘速去通過，其實最重要的，我今天要強調哦！內容要看，因為審計部為什麼這樣要求？立法院為什麼要這樣要求？我剛剛講了，你也點頭嘛！對不對？它的要求是合情合理合法，對不對？對你來講很容易做，那就趕快做啊！你是來這邊解決問題的，不是一直在解釋問題或者製造問題啊！現在弄到民間連那個金質獎，金質獎已經辦了幾屆了？"],["陳主任委員金德：24屆。"],["張委員啓楷：第25屆了欸！你如果照預算法的規定，我們的總預算到現在還沒有完全過，總統還沒公告欸！預算法裡面有明定啊！法定的預算，延續性的預算本來就可以延續，你已經都25屆，24屆要辦25屆為什麼不行？對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們今年是算第25屆。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：所以預算指的是今年的預算。"],["張委員啓楷：它是一個比較延續性的，尤其這個不會有人反對，金質獎是這麼好的一個獎項，對不對？它如果是特優，我看那個特優它以後去外面比價的時候，那個底標省二分之一欸！"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["張委員啓楷：而且都很有榮耀，總統還頒獎啊！所以主委……"],["陳主任委員金德：不過我跟委員報告一件事情……"],["張委員啓楷：聽我講，第一個，你趕快把案子提出來，因為很容易嘛！我剛剛已經講過提案內容了，你趕快送上去，我認為院會很快就會通過，所以對外不要再講什麼金質獎沒辦法辦了，你今天就清清楚楚跟他們講，金質獎不只會辦，會辦得比以前更好。"],["陳主任委員金德：我剛才已經有說明了，如果4月底之前預算能夠獲得解凍，那金質獎繼續辦；如果4月底之前預算沒有解凍，那金質獎今年恐怕沒辦法辦。","另外，我跟委員報告，以這個黨團提案說主決議是院會同意始得動支這件事情，完全百分之百侵犯了委員會的權責，所有的預算在委員會已經審畢的，包括凍結、解凍，這是第一個，我覺得最好不要經常有這樣的東西啦！"],["張委員啓楷：主委，這個沒有侵犯啊！歷年來的立法院就是這樣運作啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：沒有、沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：有些送到委員會凍結、解凍，有些送到院會凍結跟解凍啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：主決議通常是同一委員會所提的，說委員會解凍。第二個就是預算……"],["張委員啓楷：因為很重視你們工程會，所以才會送到院會嘛！不過最重要其實就是我剛才講的，內容合情合理合法，而且很快啦！","來，我再跟你講一個觀念，我們來溝通一個觀念，事實上每一年凍結案都很多，我剛才光是唸113年度，交通部就有31個了，對不對？我剛剛還特別請主委你回想一下，你當過立法委員，有凍結案後來沒有解凍的嗎？非常少耶！我印象中只有一次，賴清德因為國民黨去凍了公共電視的預算，那時候賴總統是幹事長，他不願意簽解凍，後來公視跟一些人民團體就在報紙上登了廣告，要賴清德幹事長解凍，只有那一筆，其他一定如期嘛！所以你不要擔心你的金質獎沒辦法辦。","另外，我給大家看一下，今年凍結的比例占總預算4.6%，如果從90年開始算，那時候你已經在內閣啦！90年開始算，有8次都比今年的凍結比例還高，你如果算金額，有4年比今年都還高，我剛才講了，都解凍啦！所以我拜託一下，一方面我是認為這幾天包括行政院長帶著部會首長下去就在講說什麼凍結沒辦法做，以前就沒有這個問題啊！這是第一個我今天要特別強調的。第二個，你一直在擔心你的金質獎，因為我昨天看了報紙，還登了大大一個版，你趕快跟我們優秀、優良的那些建商講，金質獎沒有問題，好不好？OK？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：好，主委謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","接下來張宏陸委員、張宏陸委員、張宏陸委員不在。","現在請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},{"id":"159276","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159276","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb1df17b18be514717ad7e46c29134393cb6aeebfddff728efb2b7e68c96004cff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"12:34:48 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環境部在2月底的時候有舉辦了一個加強空污防治的論壇也邀集了很多國際的學者來討論我們是預計3月底會發布"},{"start":134.528,"end":142.154,"text":"新公平政策白皮書對不對對我們現在正在努力做啦齁阿可能4月多才會對外公平好沒有關係就是那我我"},{"start":143.878,"end":164.945,"text":"我請問一下這個白皮書大概會著重在空污防治的哪些面向因為第一個是剛剛講到的就是認知的問題就是說我們發現民眾對於這種污染來源都一直覺得是外面的可是事實上我們自己汽機車各種的污染也蠻多的所以我們要把這個資訊可以掌握"},{"start":165.385,"end":182.888,"text":"所以我們大概呢第一個是我們希望民眾可以走向健康的方式去走所以我們要提出一些污染改善的這個重點例如說汽機車怎麼做工廠怎麼做還有鄰近的生活污染源怎麼做其實裡面最重要的就是說因為我們未來這個總統也特別規劃了2035年要達到淨零2035要減38加減22030要減28加減2其實這個會減的蠻多的那這個減呢其實也會讓"},{"start":194.13,"end":215.833,"text":"空氣品質也會變好所以我們也預期說淨零跟這個空品會兩個共立那怎麼去達成所以這個也會討論那另外一個呢是我是覺得空氣品質需要全民一起做而且要一些新的科技那我也坦承說環境部現在掌握的工具我們經由國際上的專家學者包含日本的專家他們這個環境省的這個一些專家來"},{"start":216.994,"end":241.464,"text":"其實我們發現我們還是有一些不夠的地方我們希望未來這幾年可以逐步的來加強改善所以我們大概會提出一個白皮書我們的願景往那邊走好 那既然是願景我就問一下就是我們在空氣污染防治法裡面本來就有相關空氣污染防治方案定期"},{"start":242.384,"end":249.821,"text":"定期修正檢討的機制那跟你們現在講的白皮書會不會有跌床駕屋的"},{"start":251.767,"end":279.904,"text":"因為我們要走到下一個階段第三期那這個就是增強讓我們第三期經由專家學者還有民眾的參與許願能夠得到一個比較好的共識因為我們也發現說我們環境部提的一些政策民眾根本不知道不懂所以就會造成一些缺格那其實我覺得未來推動空屋是需要民眾一起來支持的所以我們希望讓大家能夠知道所以政策白皮書"},{"start":282.322,"end":302.363,"text":"欸是是願景對然後也希望我們會落實到這個行動的方案然後法律規定的是行動方案對對對我們希望會落地到行動方案當然這裡面呃我們的都是同一個團隊在在做的所以這個這個是匯集大家的意見有這個完成的意見之後才會真的去執行那執行會更有力道好好那欸"},{"start":305.049,"end":323.269,"text":"部長就是在2月底的論壇裡面呢就是大概有部長有盤點了8項空無減量遭遇的難題啦那我可能今天也沒有辦法一一跟部長做探討我問其中幾點齁就是"},{"start":326.52,"end":352.756,"text":"氣機車排放的問題也就是移動污染源的問題這個的佔比火力發電大得多對不對我也發現就是台灣推動電動機車推動那麼多年補助那麼多錢可是並沒有得到很好的效果那既然你們把這八點列為"},{"start":356.167,"end":376.435,"text":"難題部長你有沒有什麼想法就我現在提出來的汽機車排放的問題汽機車排放當然從源頭例如說汽機車把它變成電動化改善空污這是最快的做法不過因為現在的這個補助其實相對的除了我們這個空污抵換方式可以補助之外現在的確回歸到市場機制"},{"start":377.295,"end":405.815,"text":"可是不讓我插一下話就是說我也不覺得長期補助是一件好事因為我印象沒有記錯的話補助應該也超過10年10年了 非常多錢那補助那麼多錢可是只要補助減少或者是補助停止就沒有人買電動車這個就事實嘛那有沒有什麼方法可以做改善的"},{"start":407.653,"end":434.311,"text":"這個部分其實是如果是汽機車的話因為電動車的話現在其實相對它的造價已經相對的比較電動機汽車啦比較親民那電動機車有些已經慢慢開始降下來了所以我們希望說從市場面例如說國內幾個電動車的業者能夠加速的來進行不管是機車或是汽車都可以來進行那目前的確是慢慢到一個平衡點相對的價位不會差別太大了"},{"start":435,"end":457.427,"text":"汽車看起來是世界的趨勢,而且它可能好像市場的接受度也慢慢提高汽車的部分我還是要在這邊講,假如電池交換的機制沒有辦法很完善再怎麼推再怎麼補助都沒有辦法"},{"start":460.155,"end":481.932,"text":"對 不能汽車因為它比較難交換啦 機車的部分那機車的部分沒有 汽車因為它就是國際的趨勢而且大家比較有信賴感所以可能還好現在是機車的部分因為早期確實是電池的品質然後造成很多人心理障礙像我本身就是要怎麼推動電池的統一交換"},{"start":488.997,"end":515.049,"text":"這個可能要想一下因為目前這兩家他的方式不大一樣而且也沒辦法整合這個就還蠻可惜的因為電動化確實是減少污染最壞的方式那我其他的問題就下一次再問啦好 謝謝委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":519.338,"end":519.634,"text":"好 谢谢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1140,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時35分）謝謝主席。主席，請一下彭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。台電人員就不用上來，不過我先講一下，假如我們的火力發電造成的空污只占來源的2.3%，那我覺得台電必須要有責任為自己的商譽做一定的澄清跟捍衛，假如這個數據是沒有問題的，當然不是說2.3%很少，而是說，因為它是固定污染源，所以它影響的區域是比較固定的，我們當然要儘量減少，可是假如占總比例的2.3%，我認為不應該被放大成這個樣子。台電來的人坐在那邊，要認真聽，不用上台，因為我只是跟你們講，我剛剛聽到這個數據還滿訝異的，為什麼你們占了2.3%，可以被講成好像臺灣所有的污染都是火力發電造成的？","部長，環境部在2月底的時候有舉辦了一個加強空污防制的論壇，也邀集了很多國際的學者來討論，你們是預計3月底會發布新空品政策白皮書，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。我們現在正在努力做，可能4月多才會對外公布。"],["楊委員曜：沒有關係。那我我請問一下，這個白皮書大概會著重在在空污防制的哪些面向？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，第一個是剛剛講到的認知問題，我們發現民眾對於這種污染來源都一直覺得是外面的，可是事實上我們自己汽機車各種的污染也滿多的，所以我們要把這個資訊可以掌握，因此第一個是我們希望民眾可以朝向健康的方式去走，所以我們要提出的一些污染改善的重點，例如汽機車怎麼做，工廠怎麼做，還有鄰近的生活污染源怎麼做。其實裡面最重要的就是，因為總統也特別規劃了未來2035年要達到淨零，2035要減38%加減2%，2030要減28%加減2%，其實這個會減得滿多的，這個減其實也會讓空氣品質變好，因為淨零跟空品會兩個共利，那怎麼去達成，所以這個也會討論。另外一個，我是覺得空氣品質需要全民一起做，而且要有一些新的科技，我也坦承環境部現在掌握的工具，我們經由國際上的專家學者，包含日本環境省的一些專家來，我們發現我們還是有一些不夠的地方，我們希望未來這幾年可以逐步地來加強改善，所以我們大概會提出一個白皮書，我們的願景往那邊走。"],["楊委員曜：好，既然是願景，那我就問一下，就是我們在空氣污染防制法裡面，本來就有相關空氣污染防制方案定期修正檢討的一個機制，那跟你們現在講的白皮書會不會有疊床架屋的問題？"],["彭部長啓明：不會。因為我們要走到下一個階段，就是第三期，這個就是增強，讓我們在第三期經由專家、學者和民眾的參與許願，能夠得到一個比較好的共識。因為我們也發現，環境部提的一些政策，民眾根本不知道、不懂，所以就會造成一些缺口，其實我覺得未來推動空污是需要民眾一起來支持的。"],["楊委員曜：對。"],["彭部長啓明：所以我們希望讓大家能夠知道。"],["楊委員曜：所以政策白皮書是願景？"],["彭部長啓明：對。也希望落實到這個行動的方案。"],["楊委員曜：然後規定的是行動方案？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對，我們希望落地到行動方案，當然這裡面我們都是同一個團隊在做，所以這個是彙集大家的意見，有完成的意見之後，才會真的去執行，執行會更有力道。"],["楊委員曜：部長，在2月底的論壇裡面，部長有盤點了八項空污減量遭遇的難題，我可能今天也沒有辦法一一跟部長探討，我問其中幾點，就是汽機車排放的問題，也就是移動污染源的問題，這個的占比比火力發電大得多，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員曜：我也發現臺灣推動電動機車推動了那麼多年，補助那麼多錢，可是並沒有得到很好的效果，既然你們把這八點列為難題，部長，你有沒有什麼想法？就我現在提出來的汽機車排放的問題。"],["彭部長啓明：關於汽機車排放問題，得從源頭來做，例如把汽機車變成電動化，改善空污，這是最快的作法，不過因為現在的補助，其實相對地，除了空污抵換方式可以補助之外，現在的確回歸到市場機制。"],["楊委員曜：可是我插一下話，我也不覺得長期補助是一件好事，因為在我印象裡，我沒有記錯的話，補助應該也超過10年了。"],["彭部長啓明：10年了，非常多錢。"],["楊委員曜：補助了那麼多錢，可是只要補助減少或補助停止，就沒有人買電動車，這個就是事實嘛！那有沒有什麼方法可以改善？"],["彭部長啓明：如果是汽機車的話，關於電動車，現在其實相對地來說，在造價方面，電動汽車已經相對地比較親民，電動機車有些已經慢慢開始降下來了，所以我們希望從市場面，例如國內幾個電動車的業者能夠加速來進行，不管機車或是汽車都可以來進行。目前的確是慢慢到一個平衡點，相對地價位不會差別太大了。"],["楊委員曜：電動汽車看起來是世界的趨勢，而且好像市場的接受度也慢慢提高了。關於汽車的部分，我還是要在這邊講，假如電池交換的機制沒有辦法很完善，再怎麼推、再怎麼補助都沒有辦法。"],["彭部長啓明：汽車因為比較難交換，那機車的部分……"],["楊委員曜：汽車因為就是國際的趨勢，而且大家比較有信賴感，所以可能還好。現在是機車的部分，因為早期確實是因為電池的品質而造成很多人心裡有障礙，像我本身就是，要怎麼推動電池的統一交換制度，這個可能要想一下。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我再研究，因為目前這兩家的方式不大一樣，而且也沒辦法整合。"],["楊委員曜：對。這個就還滿可惜的，因為電動化確實是減少污染最快的方式。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["楊委員曜：其他的問題就下一次再問。好，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。謝謝部長。","接下來請翁曉玲委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}},{"id":"159275","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159275","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb5bc567654520eaebad7e46c29134393cb6aeebfddff728efe588b5cd50b116635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"12:24:35 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分喔是相較去年來講我是前年來講是比較好可是本席有這邊喔有提供有提到一個資料就是說就"},{"start":80.653,"end":106.793,"text":"這個瑞士空氣品質檢測公司IQ Air的部分他寫說而且公司也有報導這樣的資料台灣在全球空污的排名結果是第54名將於2023年退後9名所以這邊要請教部長的部分是說為何我們環境部內部的資料跟我們國際瑞士空氣品質檢測公司兩方的資料"},{"start":109.855,"end":137.456,"text":"感覺起來台灣的空汙的品質是退後八名而且在這邊這個環境部的資料是寫說他的這個PA2.5的指標是12點多可是這裡的數字是17.5我想要請教一下這個部長這跟我們現在訂的12規定的12的PA2.5的這個標準相差很大是不是可以請部長說明這兩個資料的差別"},{"start":138.597,"end":152.312,"text":"好 謝謝張委員提出這個意見因為這個IQ Air我跟委員報告它是一個瑞士的一家做空氣品質監測的公司它的產品是屬於這種小型的比較便宜的 比較容易偵測的所以大家都會可以採用"},{"start":153.533,"end":170.341,"text":"那它在台灣也有一些策站然後它的使用的資料會整合我們環境部的資料那通常這種自動的數字它一定會比較高它缺乏的QA QC或上游在某一種條件之下例如說濕度很高PM2.5就容易變得高"},{"start":171.061,"end":198.952,"text":"所以他的統計的量他會相對的就會偏高那我們也跟委員報告因為他本身是一個賣空氣淨淨機還有微星感測器的私人公司我們尊重他在國際上發這種新聞但是以台灣我們是採用國際標準的用這個手動來監測然後校正自動的兩個都一起看所以我們是12.8我們才是比較符合國際統一的標準的方法好謝謝部長的解釋所以部長的意思是說這家公司他就是為了要"},{"start":200.292,"end":219.059,"text":"這個開創市場所以他故意把這個檢測的標準把它提高可是我還是要跟部長報告就是說我個人認為監測的品質的這個數字可以受公平我也不認為說一個國際型的這個公司他會故意就針對一些監測的數字來去做調整"},{"start":222.38,"end":237.91,"text":"針對他認定的那臺灣所以你也不認為說臺灣的空氣品質在國際世界排名是第54名有退後8名所以你手上的資料是進步嗎所以意思就是說我認為評斷的指標可以嚴格或是是比如說他認為的是比如說超過30"},{"start":238.991,"end":254.684,"text":"或超過20是比如說嚴重或不嚴重可是我個人是認為他在檢測的過程中他不會因為說好像要開發市場就故意做更嚴格的或是更錯誤的數據所以我是請部長可以解釋一下說"},{"start":256.025,"end":283.774,"text":"是不是你覺得台灣是進步沒有退後我們其實過去從8年前大概20維克PM2.5到了現在12.8那也跟委員報告這進步是很大的但是說真的也到了一個瓶頸我們往下降其實需要很多的努力所以目前我們認為是說我們台灣的空瓶並沒有像這個他評估的這麼超而且我們其實標準都是依照跟著國際趨勢一樣在走的我們的方法學要把它先定義清楚那他把"},{"start":284.534,"end":308.651,"text":"他是把很多的策戰的數據做一個平均那我們認為如果討論上以台灣的數字來看的話17.5是沒有辦法代表台灣實際上的空氣品質的好謝謝部長那這部分我還是當然部長有解釋我們還是屬於尊重好那接下來我們其實時間的關係我們來看一個表好就針對我們跳下一個表"},{"start":311.564,"end":339.983,"text":"好來上一個表上一個表其實那我上次也看到部長有參加一個會議他說民眾的期待希望空污的品質更積極解決資訊盲點那也特別提到汽機車環境的空污比煙囪多以及生活室內空污影響比戶外多結果後來我看到這個環境部有做這樣的一個表盤點我國空污的來源的現況規劃精準管制的一個方向那這個表大概的意思就是說境外輸入"},{"start":341.363,"end":356.848,"text":"傳輸的這個空氣品質才是造成台灣空氣品質的一個最主要的原因請問那個部長是嗎對這個是把台灣的所有的境外跟境內各種來源做出一個統計調查出來的結果對所以這個部長這個是沒有問題的沒有問題"},{"start":358.308,"end":385.271,"text":"可是部長我看到我這邊有圈一個紅色的框框所以為什麼現在民眾跟環境部跟政府認定為空汙的來源標準造成空汙標準會嚴重的有落差我這邊圈了一個台灣過去大家認為就是因為錯誤的能源政策火力發電火力全開可是在這個報告這個資料裡面只有寫說電力業造成的空汙只佔全台灣空汙"},{"start":386.472,"end":401.41,"text":"的影響的比例只有2.3%請問部長你不會覺得這跟一般人民的認知落差太大啦尤其在你的這個今天的報告裡面還寫出因為空氣的污染你還要要求我們台灣的很多的發電廠比如說協和電廠"},{"start":402.651,"end":416.663,"text":"等等這些發電廠要他控制發電造成的空污可是你比如說協和、麥寮等這些電廠結果在你自己環境部的個人認為這部門的認為它影響的部分只有2.3%那我請教部長因為一個2.3%的影響而去勞斯動眾來去請台灣的發電量要降低這樣不是跟人民的落差很大嗎"},{"start":429.059,"end":456.196,"text":"包委員其實我們的這個降載喔是很多年來都是這樣在做那以前這個電力業的比例是更高那也其實台電也整個就降下來了所以意思是說台電現在已經降下來了所以台電的占比只有100%只有2.3%你的意思是說人民這個騎車開車占的交通人員12%所以人民要來改善還有一些生物啊生物人員占3.9所以台灣的動物也是造成空污的指標"},{"start":457.653,"end":465.771,"text":"是這樣子嗎對這個是經過科學驗證這是有經過我們的專家學者討論出來用各種的大型的模式算出來的結果"},{"start":466.584,"end":490.544,"text":"我只能跟部長講這個跟一般人民的想法差太多也跟現在環境部在跟各個部會協調如果是這樣的話那你為什麼要去請台電有一些火力發電少發電他才占100%的2.3啊還要這麼老實當中應該是解決其他的問題相關的問題啊因為他們是固定污染源比較好控制那其他的移動污染源相對的是比較辛苦的所以我但是未來我們會全部一起來推動"},{"start":491.184,"end":517.432,"text":"所以我還是要拜託台中火力發電造成台中的空汙非常嚴重這是全民的共識啊可是我相信不過委員那個共識跟實際上的知識所以人民的共識不對環境部說的環境部要幫人民改一個觀念就是說其實電力火力發電對人民的健康沒有影響只有在全台灣的空汙只有2.3%報告委員那個每個地方不一定所以委員你不要套我話"},{"start":518.092,"end":536.028,"text":"就是說不要把我挖坑給我跳其實是基本上不一樣的天氣形態不一樣的條件是會不一樣的但是我也必須說現在我們的這種移動污染源遠超過固定污染源了所以這個是我們下一個階段要努力的目標那部長有沒有對你講的這些移動污染源有任何的一些未來的進進方式"},{"start":536.748,"end":554.638,"text":"這個是我們現在在研究啦但是報告委員這個很難推動因為例如說像我在韓國曾經介紹他們的細胞簡訊今天空氣不好請大家不要開車到市區去這個在台灣反而空氣不好我要開自己的車進去不要吸到空氣所以這個觀念的轉換呢的確要有一些方法的那這個部分呢我們會來討論"},{"start":556.189,"end":579.874,"text":"好那我要最後要跟部長講今天外面的霧茫茫那今天的空氣品質AQY指標在新北跟台北市其實都超過100都代表空氣品質差不好不好的一個狀況所以希望環境部還是要努力所以今天部長我今天有帶一個禮物給你這個這個是橘色橘色的口罩這個是我找到的橘色口罩第二個是"},{"start":580.885,"end":592.581,"text":"粉紅色的口罩那我希望說部長可以拿到這個資訊就希望我們的空氣秉持不要到橘色跟紅色那這邊可以給你讓你繼續來關心我們台灣的這個空污的問題好嗎好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝張偉謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1110,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（12時24分）主席、各位委員、各位官員。大家午安，有請彭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝部長。部長，今天要討論的是有關於臺灣空污的問題，最近的新聞也明確表示肺癌成為國人十大癌症死因之首，每年新增的人數有1.7萬人，死亡超過1萬人，尤其現在最重要的就是，大家都認為肺腺癌、肺癌的原因跟居住地方的PM2.5濃度有相當重要的關係。就環境部提出來的資料，現在來講，去年的PM2.5的數字有下降到十二點多，相較前年來講是會比較好，可是本席有提到一個資料，瑞士空氣品質檢測公司IQAir有寫，而且公視也有報導這樣的資料，臺灣在全球空污的排名是第54名，較2023年退後9名，所以要請教部長，為何環境部內部的資料跟國際瑞士空氣品質監測公司的資料，感覺起來，臺灣的空污品質退後8名，而且環境部的資料是寫說，PM2.5的指標是十二點多，可是這裡的數字是17.5，那我想要請教一下部長，這跟我們現在規定的PM2.5的標準相差很大，是不是可以請部長說明這兩個資料的差別？"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝張委員提出這個意見，關於IQAir，我跟委員報告，它是瑞士的一家做空氣品質監測的公司，它的產品是屬於小型的、比較便宜的、比較容易偵測的，所以大家都可以採用，它在臺灣也有一些測站，然後它使用的資料會整合我們環境部的資料，通常這種自動的數字一定會比較高，它缺乏QA、QC或是上游在某一種條件之下，例如濕度很高，PM2.5就容易變得很高，所以它統計的量相對地就會偏高。我們也跟委員報告，因為它本身是一個賣空氣清淨機和微型感測器的私人公司，我們尊重它在國際上發這種新聞，但是在臺灣，我們是採用國際標準，用手動來監測，然後校正自動，兩個都一起看，所以我們的數字是12.8，我們才是比較符合國際統一標準的方法。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長的解釋。所以部長的意思是說，這家公司就是為了要開創市場，所以故意把檢測的標準提高，可是我還是要跟部長報告，我個人認為監測品質的數字可以受公評，我也不認為一個國際型的公司會故意針對一些監測的數字去做調整，所以你也不認為臺灣的空氣品質在世界的排名是第54名，退後8名，所以你手上的資料是進步嗎？所以意思就是說，我認為評斷的指標可以嚴格，比如它認為超過30或超過20是嚴重或是不嚴重，可是我個人是認為，在檢測的過程中，它不會因為要開發市場就故意做更嚴格或者更錯誤的數據，所以我請部長解釋一下，你是不是覺得臺灣是進步的，沒有退後？"],["彭部長啓明：其實從8年前，PM2.5從大概20微克到了現在12.8，這個進步是很大的，但是說真的，也到達一個瓶頸，往下降其實需要很多的努力，所以目前我們認為臺灣的空品並沒有像它評估的這麼差，而且我們標準其實都是跟著國際趨勢一樣在走的，我們的方法學要先定義清楚，它是把很多測站的數據做一個平均，我們認為如果討論上以臺灣的數字來看的話，17.5是沒有辦法代表臺灣實際的空氣品質的。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長，這個部分部長有解釋，我們還是尊重。","接下來，因為時間的關係，我們來看一個表，我上次也看到部長有參加一個會議，裡面提到，對於空污的品質，民眾期待並希望更積極，解決資訊盲點，然後也特別提到汽機車環境的空污比煙囪多，以及室內生活的空污影響比戶外多。結果後來我看到環境部有做這樣的一個表，盤點我國空污來源的現況，規劃精準管制的一個方向，這個表大概的意思就是說，境外傳輸的空氣品質才是造成臺灣空氣品質的最主要原因，請問部長，是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。這個是把臺灣所有境外跟境內各種來源去做出一個統計調查的結果。"],["張委員智倫：對，所以這個表部長認為是沒有問題的？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有問題。"],["張委員智倫：可是部長，我這邊有圈一個紅色的框框，所以為什麼現在民眾跟環境部認定為空污的來源標準會有嚴重的落差，我這邊圈了一個，過去大家認為就是因為錯誤的能源政策造成空污，是因為火力發電火力全開，可是在這一個報告的資料裡面，只有寫到電力業造成的空污比例只占全臺灣空污影響的2.3%，請問部長，你不會覺得這跟一般人民的認知落差太大了？尤其在你今天的報告裡面還寫出，因為空氣的污染，你還要要求臺灣很多的發電廠，比如協和、麥寮等等這些發電廠，要它們控制發電造成的空污，可是你們自己環境部認為它們影響的部分只有2.3%，我請教部長，因為一個2.3%的影響而去勞師動眾，去請臺灣這些電廠發電量降低，這樣不是跟人民的認知落差很大嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們要求降載是很多年來都是這樣在做，以前電力業的比例更高，其實台電也整個就降下來了。"],["張委員智倫：意思是說台電現在已經降下來了，所以台電的占比在100%中只有2.3%，你的意思是說，人民騎車、開車造成的交通源空污占12%，所以人民要來改善？還有一些生物源占3.9%，所以臺灣的動物也是造成空污的指標，因為是這樣子嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。這個是經過科學驗證，這是經過我們的專家學者討論出來的，用各種大型模式算出來的結果。"],["張委員智倫：我只能跟部長講，這個跟一般人民的想法差太多，現在環境部在跟各個部會協調，如果是這樣的話，那你為什麼要去請台電、一些火力發電廠少發電？它才占100%的2.3%啊！還要這麼勞師動眾，應該去解決其他相關的問題啊。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為它們是固定污染源，比較好控制，而其他移動污染源要控制相對是比較辛苦的，但是未來我們會全部一起來推動。"],["張委員智倫：所以我還是要再拜託部長，臺中的火力發電造成臺中的空污非常嚴重，這是全民的共識啊，可是我相信……"],["彭部長啓明：不過委員，那個共識跟實際上的知識都是……"],["張委員智倫：所以人民的共識不對，環境部要幫人民改一個觀念，就是其實火力發電對人民的健康沒有影響，其空污只有占全臺灣的2.3%？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，每個地方不一定，所以委員不要套我話、不要挖坑給我跳，其實基本上不一樣的天氣型態、不一樣的條件是會不一樣的，但是我也必須說，現在移動污染源遠超過固定污染源，所以這個是我們下一個階段要努力的目標。"],["張委員智倫：好，那部長，針對你講的這些移動污染源，有沒有任何未來的精進方式？"],["彭部長啓明：這個是我們現在在研究的，但是報告委員，這個很難推動，例如像我在韓國曾接到他們的細胞簡訊，指出今天空氣不好，請大家不要開車到市區去，這個在臺灣，反而變成民眾覺得空氣不好，就要開自己的車進去市區，不要吸到空氣，所以這個觀念的轉換，的確要有一些方法，這個部分我們會來討論。"],["張委員智倫：好。我最後要跟部長講，今天外面霧茫茫，今天的空氣品質AQI指標在新北跟臺北市其實都超過100，都代表空氣品質差，是不好的狀況，所以我希望環境部還是要努力，因此部長，我今天有帶一個禮物給你，這個是我找到的橘色口罩，第二個是粉紅色的口罩，我希望部長可以拿著這個資訊，就是希望我們的空氣品質不要到橘色跟紅色，這些可以給你，讓你繼續來關心臺灣的空污問題，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請楊曜委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}},{"id":"159274","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159274","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb6f266de1ed5174d1a4d8ee7d728f0553b6aeebfddff728ef0a3ad233f9b498fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:33:14 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講一些感受"},{"start":196.092,"end":222.049,"text":"我們因為過去的重點都是在包含AI的晶片還有雲端伺服器的設備等等這個製造一直在投資那當然我們現在新的這個做法也把我們AI的應用也放進來所以為了要做應用我們就要當然要加緊我們的那個算力的建置算力也不夠啊也不夠所以我們加緊嘛來來來看你的資料量"},{"start":225.171,"end":243.776,"text":"柏科會做一個叫Tide對不對一點都不Tide資料量不夠 算力不足你只有一個Tide LSTB只有模型沒有介面你看今天排名牌都這麼後面我問你喔CHAT的GPD你用過沒有CHAT的GPD委員我問你 CHAT的GPD有沒有用過"},{"start":250.214,"end":266.408,"text":"有沒有用過有用過嘛就很簡單的把它下載App一按就可以了嘛我知道所以我跟委員報告我們很快就會發布這個介面的部分國安中心很努力啦我問你你給我個時間表什麼時候你的Tide可以像ChatGPT一樣可以讓人家按了App把它Download然後放在一個Icon什麼時候你告訴我時間表"},{"start":280.79,"end":301.258,"text":"很重要 這個題目很重要給我們時間表什麼時候我們公安中心主任主任跟委員報告目前運用現有的預算在開發之前部件算力然後落實主權同時我們會訓練自己的你告訴我時間因為我時間快到時間表什麼時候可以APPAPPAPPAPP什麼時候"},{"start":307.23,"end":320.082,"text":"我們其實目前的部件的方式我們有API手機可以用 只是說要對全民開放對全民開放 什麼時候對 我們算是要實行部件什麼時候 什麼時候 什麼時候 講時間啊很難訂出一個時間表要訂時間表 來來來 你不給我時間表我就不下去了來 我問你 我問你問這個這個東西國國的官員不負責任"},{"start":329.23,"end":343.73,"text":"有限度的開放不是全部民眾化我想應該在一兩年內就會一兩年喔 會就發料料了來 我們來看喔派的總共下載16.7萬次兩位長官特別無助的"},{"start":345.436,"end":358.81,"text":"不是說你棒球打得很好啊 你看好了16.7萬喔 Tide Tide Tide16.7萬Deep SeekDeep SeekApp下載超過1億啊ChatGPT2億啊因為他現在使用必須要比較專業的你看喔 ChatGPT下載App1.6億次Deep Seek1億"},{"start":367.719,"end":369.36,"text":"我去年接任以後就希望我們的國防中心要建立這個你不能希望啊 要做給我們看啊現在正在做結果就是這樣"},{"start":384.366,"end":404.523,"text":"但是真正要讓全民應用一定要產業界進來不是靠政府產業界進來我們期望今年今年就會有跟產業界的合作會有一些應用可以讓全民使用我們今年年底之前所以你修正剛才主任的話主任說兩年你是今年年底可以我會督促就是今年年底各位聽好喔各位看官聽好喔聽好我們這個話是公開諮詢的喔"},{"start":412.622,"end":417.337,"text":"吳主委承諾年底就有泰的MF"},{"start":419.032,"end":437.319,"text":"給大家去用使用Tide的模型來發展出來相關應用是不是我們就可以下載是不是這樣又可以怎麼樣下載loading年底前啊年底就可以來使用是你的Pi用啊你看16.7萬次啊GPT 1.6萬次1.6億次啊Deep-seq是超過1億這要花多少錢你知道嗎"},{"start":451.551,"end":477.98,"text":"你那個騙面的啦 人家背後發多少錢你都不知道背後發多少錢 你講一下你講一下啊 你要開罰罪 我就給你支持啊支持A51謝謝你後來撤掉啦 沒有刪那個五億我沒有提案 這個案子不要亂栽贓亂栽贓喔有你有提案 但是後來有撤掉 謝謝你 謝謝你不然那個五億我們今天就沒有辦法提到我們再加一個零給你咧"},{"start":479.288,"end":482.026,"text":"50億啊?真的喔?可不可以縮短半年?"},{"start":484.434,"end":511.385,"text":"沒有啦 錢從哪裡來 沒有錢我的做法這樣啦主計師告訴我 主計長告訴我要追加錢預算你可以在這裡面給他加一個零啦好 謝謝委員我跟委員報告我們講真的啦這個一定要民間進來所以我今年會努力讓民間也進來來開發這些應用軟體那我們會把這個介面剛剛提到介面把它建置好會跟民間好啦 你主席站起來啦"},{"start":512.245,"end":527.974,"text":"我再次的提醒你啦喔你來這裡不能這樣子一點企圖心也沒有他有這樣 要單退休的款 不可以這樣你啦 你是主委耶 這麼大的官啊他有把自己小看 地盤窮 手窮 電梯窮那社區的主委我們沒理由 主委好啦好啦好啦好 謝謝賴慈寶委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":850,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時33分）謝謝主席及各位先進。有請國科會的吳主委。"],["主席：請主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：主委你好。我有提出AI基本法，對於你早上的回應，老實講，我是不滿意的，我覺得你身為國科會的主委，這件事情是你在做的，結果主導權卻被拿去數發部，但你都不講話，對不對？主席這麼挺你，結果你只有笑笑而已，這個主導權都被搶走了，欸！部會首長彼此之間是競爭的，AI這麼重要，總統這麼重視，你要想辦法把它搶過來，這是你的地盤，怎麼地盤都被人家搶走了，結果你卻不講話，一副裝傻的樣子，可以這樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們沒有在搶，我們是合作。"],["賴委員士葆：合作？但主導的是他們。"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒關係。"],["賴委員士葆：沒關係？有關係，如果我是你，我會睡不著覺的，事情都是你在做，對不對？這個很奇怪，是不是？新郎不是你，這不是很奇怪，難道你心裡不會有點鬱卒？主導權都被人家拿走了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會。"],["賴委員士葆：More than happy？More than happy？"],["吳主任委員誠文：也不是這樣講，就是……"],["賴委員士葆：因為長官交代？主委，你這樣會讓人家瞧不起。"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有，我們討論的結果的確是覺得數發部、因為它將來還要解釋法令。"],["賴委員士葆：數發部只會「點麵線」而已，它還會什麼？要不然就是出國。國科會，我們是比較瞧得起你，對不對？你看底下國科會長官的心裡都跟我一樣，我們都替你覺得委屈和憤怒，只有你不講話，真的很奇怪。你要不要say 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app給大家去用。"],["吳主任委員誠文：使用TAIDE的模型來發展出相關應用。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，我們就可以下載，是不是這樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就可以怎麼樣？"],["賴委員士葆：下載，loading啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：年底前啊！"],["賴委員士葆：年底就可以來使用？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["賴委員士葆：你這個就不好用啊！你有看到嗎？16.7萬次，ChatGPT是1.6億次，DeepSeek是超過1億次。"],["吳主任委員誠文：這要花多少錢你知道嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：人家DeepSeek是便宜的，DeepSeek很便宜的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：那個是片面的啦！人家背後花多少錢你又不知道。"],["賴委員士葆：背後花多少錢你講一下！你講一下！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啦！你要花多少錢我也支持你啊！對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：你支持那5億，謝謝你後來撤掉，沒有刪那5億。"],["賴委員士葆：我沒有提案這個案子，不要亂栽贓哦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：有，你有提案，但是後來有撤掉，謝謝你、謝謝你，不然刪那5億我們今年就沒有辦法行動。"],["賴委員士葆：要不然我們再加一個零給你。"],["吳主任委員誠文：50億哦？真的嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：可不可以縮短半年？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有啦！錢從哪裡來？沒有錢。我的作法是這樣啦……"],["賴委員士葆：主計總處主計長告訴我，要追加減預算，你可以在這裡面給它加一個零啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員，我跟委員報告，我們講真的啦！這個一定要民間進來，所以我今年會努力讓民間也進來，來開發這些應用軟體，我們會把剛剛提到的介面建置好，會跟民間合作。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！主席站起來了，我再次地提醒你，你來這裡不能這樣子，一點企圖心也沒有，一副要等退休的樣子，不能這樣，你是主委欸！這麼大的官，一副把自己小看，地盤被搶走也不講話！"],["吳主任委員誠文：社區的主委都沒用了，還主委。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢，主委請回座。","我想我們這個質詢是很正式也很認真的啦！剛剛的數據委員也整理得很辛苦，我們也是鼓勵，希望部會可以一起努力。","我們接續進行質詢，請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}},{"id":"159273","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159273","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb1849be2dc1e6b69aa4d8ee7d728f0553b6aeebfddff728effbd5a51b102a7b385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:27:03 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在場的委員先進 列車中央總統官員 會場工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生有請我們吳主任委員跟太空中心吳主任好 請主委及吳主任備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":27.316,"end":56.05,"text":"總委員好主委好吳主任好今天又來關心火箭的問題各國在增建運載火箭那麼發射機率非常搶手太空港的選址呢應該將聯外的海陸運輸思考在內好 請教一下那個請吳主任來協助一下吳主委請問亞馬遜他在大概七年前就已經有一個鼓勃計畫打算要在太空中佈置多少的地軌道太空衛星三千多顆是嗎 是有這樣的事情嗎"},{"start":57.742,"end":70.738,"text":"阿瑪隆是3000多顆對3000多顆嘛那目前他也發布了因為他本來要發展自己的燃油火箭來運載但是遇到一些狀況他改為委託人家發射委託83次的次數大概耗資要多少錢"},{"start":72.477,"end":96.666,"text":"總共接近100次,不止83次接近100次,那大概發射的市場有多大的商機?我沒有去特別注意大概看到的是100億美金吳主委知道了,現在火箭發射非常的搶手請問能不能請吳主委告訴我們吳主委目前各國的發射廠大概的運用狀況"},{"start":98.524,"end":117.592,"text":"你說台灣的還是外國的 國際上的到底哪些發射廠的大家都到哪裡去發射低軌道的通訊衛星我想這個美國的用的非常非常多用的多用SPACES來舉例大概他去年就發射100算我們整個商用衛星發射市場的比例大概有沒有超過一半一半以上那第二名在哪裡"},{"start":119.355,"end":135.749,"text":"第二名好像是中國,中國的不是商業的。商業的還有歐盟的,在法國,雅利安在加以納那裡,日本也有。那麼印度也有很多,印度的發射中心會在哪裡?"},{"start":136.935,"end":155.94,"text":"他在南方有不少德里以南是的好那麼現在呢主委我們現在關切的是我們自從太空發展法通過之後目前成立了太空中心也積極的評估在台灣建制火箭發射廠的廠址那目前進度怎麼樣目前我們已經進到最後選址的這個是不是這兩個地方"},{"start":162.93,"end":187.428,"text":"台東跟屏東對 台東的南田村是屏東的九龐村好 那請問選址的時候有沒有對未來火箭發射廠址它的發射量營運量做個定位譬如說你一年發射12次跟一年發射兩次這個時候你的對外連外的運輸的需求就不太一樣是不是這樣是那目前有對這個發射廠址未來5年到10年內的營運的狀況有個定位嗎"},{"start":192.101,"end":214.055,"text":"我們當然希望說這個廠子建好以後不是只有我們自己的需求因為我們需求量可能沒有那麼大是希望能夠也協助其他的國家能夠變成是一個產業主委說得很好其實台灣在思考的是我們不見得能夠造波音客機 造Airbus但是我們能夠造機場"},{"start":215.356,"end":233.885,"text":"所以任何的民航機沒有機場它就不能用但很特別的這個世界上機場很多能造民航機的不多可是火箭發射剛好相反能造火箭的不少但是適合發射火箭的像南北迴旋之間像台灣這種得天獨合的地理位置的不多"},{"start":234.745,"end":263.464,"text":"所以其實這些當火箭發射的需量很大的時候不只是火箭建造業蓬勃發展到處這些火箭要尋找什麼尋找可以運載火箭把衛星送到軌道的這些地方那台灣是不是一個非常南台灣是不是一個非常好的場子就它發射的角度越靠近赤道可以佈設的角度越多吳主任是不是這樣子是同意是這樣沒錯嘛所以呢台灣有沒有把自己定位在未來我們可以協助讓這些商用火箭來台灣發射"},{"start":265.045,"end":288.862,"text":"我們期待是往這個方向走好那當這些商用火箭要來台灣發射的時候它一定是從國外運進來有些在國內裝配有些在國內做檢查那麼國外進來的港口可能是從高雄港但是它從高雄港入運要到這兩個基地中的其中一個可能遇到入運上的需求也有考慮過有沒有從海運上走那吳主任請幫忙協助主委"},{"start":293.149,"end":293.389,"text":"主委主席"},{"start":317.959,"end":346.198,"text":"太空中心這邊要給它一個目標台灣的火箭發射場子不是只是用以用來發射科研火箭我們要對這個火箭的未來十年內有沒有可能成為一個國際的熱門的供應給商用火箭發射的場子可以去做這個評估嗎是 我們的確是往這個方向走好 那如果有這樣的評估未來的發射量會牽涉到你整個地面地面上連外交通設施的運載需求"},{"start":347.899,"end":357.672,"text":"也要趕快的去做規劃跟相關的主管部會去做配合協調包括了交通部等等可以嗎可以好那就謝謝主委也謝謝吳主任謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":799,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時27分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士及先生。有請吳主任委員及太空中心吳主任。"],["主席：請主委及吳主任備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好、吳主任好。今天又來關心火箭的問題，各國在爭建運載火箭發射基地非常搶手，太空港的選址應該將聯外的海陸運輸思考在內。請吳主任協助吳主委，請問亞馬遜大概7年前就已經有一個古柏計畫，打算在太空中布置多少低軌道的太空衛星？三千多顆，是嗎？有這樣的事情嗎？"],["吳主任宗信：Amazon是三千多顆，對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：三千多顆。目前它也發布了，因為它本來要發展自己的藍源火箭來運載，但是遇到了一些狀況，它改為委託人家發射，委託了83次，大概耗資要多少錢？"],["吳主任宗信：總共接近100次，不只83次。"],["鍾委員佳濱：接近100次。大概發射的市場有多大的商機？"],["吳主任宗信：我沒有特別注意，不過……"],["鍾委員佳濱：大概看到的是100億美金。謝謝。","吳主委知道了嘛！現在火箭發射非常搶手。","能不能請吳主任告訴吳主委目前各國發射場大概的運用狀況？"],["吳主任宗信：你說臺灣的還是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：外國的、國際上的，到底哪些發射場，大家都到那裡去發射低軌道的通訊衛星？"],["吳主任宗信：我想這個美國用得非常、非常多，用SpaceX來舉例，大概它去年就發射一百……"],["鍾委員佳濱：占我們整個商用衛星發射市場的比例，大概有沒有超過一半？"],["吳主任宗信：一半以上。"],["鍾委員佳濱：一半以上，那第二名在哪裡？"],["吳主任宗信：第二名好像是中國。"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是中國嘛！中國……"],["吳主任宗信：不過中國的不是商業。"],["鍾委員佳濱：中國的不是商業，對。那麼商業的還有歐盟的，在法國……"],["吳主任宗信：亞利安。"],["鍾委員佳濱：亞利安，在蓋亞那那裡。日本也有；印度也有很多，印度的發射中心會在哪裡？"],["吳主任宗信：它在南方有不少……"],["鍾委員佳濱：德里以南。"],["吳主任宗信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。主委，我們現在關切的是，我們自從太空發展法通過之後，目前成立了太空中心，也積極評估在臺灣建置火箭發射場的場址，那目前進度怎麼樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前我們已經進到最後選址的這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是這兩個地方，臺東和屏東？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，臺東的南田村，和屏東的九棚村。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問選址的時候有沒有對未來火箭發射場址的發射量、營運量做個定位？譬如說，你一年發射12次跟一年發射2次，這個時候你的對外聯外運輸需求就不太一樣了，是不是這樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那目前你們有對這個場址未來5年到10年內的營運狀況有個定位嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們當然是希望場址建好以後，不是只有我們自己的需求，因為我們的需求量可能沒有那麼大，我們也希望能夠協助其他的國家，希望它能夠變成一個產業。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委，你說得很好，其實臺灣在思考的是，我們不見得能夠造波音客機、Airbus，但是我們能夠造機場，任何的民航機，如果沒有機場，它就不能用，但很特別的是，這個世界上機場很多，但是能夠造民航機的不多，可是火箭發射剛好相反，能造火箭的不少，但是適合發射火箭的，像南北迴歸線之間，像臺灣這種擁有得天獨厚地理位置的不多，所以當火箭發射的需求量很大的時候，不只是火箭建造業蓬勃發展，到時這些火箭要尋找什麼？他們要尋找可以運載火箭，把火箭送到軌道的這些地方，那南臺灣是不是一個非常好的場址？就它所發射的角度，越靠近赤道可以布設的角度越多，是不是這樣子？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是這樣子沒錯嘛！所以臺灣有沒有把自己定位在未來我們可以協助這些商用火箭來臺灣發射？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們期待往這個方向走。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，當這些商業火箭要來臺灣發射的時候，它一定是從國外運進來，有些是在國內裝配，有些是在國內做檢查，那麼從國外進來的港口可能是高雄港，但是它從高雄港要陸運到這2個基地的其中一個，可能就會遇到陸運上的需求，你們有沒有考慮過從海運上走？吳主任請幫忙協助主委。"],["吳主任宗信：基本上，在我們的評估過程裡，這個都是有考慮在內的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以考慮到未來來臺灣發射的火箭有可能進入南臺灣的火箭發射基地，它是透過海運的港口直接到附近，所以未來的選址也有可能靠近海邊嘛！應該是靠近海邊嘛！"],["吳主任宗信：對，沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，最後的結論，我不要占用太多的時間。所以主委，這邊要請你敦促太空中心，要給他們一個目標，臺灣的火箭發射場址不是只用來發射科研火箭，我們要對這個火箭的未來、10年內有沒有可能成為一個國際熱門的、供應給商業火箭發射的場址？可以去做這個評估嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們的確是往這個方向走。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，如果有這樣的評估，未來的發射量會牽涉到地面上整個聯外交通設施的運載需求，這個也要趕快去做規劃，要跟相關主管部會做配合和協調，包括交通部等等，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝主委，也謝謝吳主任，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢，主委和官員請回座。","接著我們繼續進行質詢，請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}},{"id":"159272","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159272","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb4e2a72e0c0bdd9d5fc70f51a359b58cfb6aeebfddff728efb92ba5236964c1d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"12:23:55 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謝謝主委好 謝謝我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":815,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（12時24分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳委員俊宇：主委午安。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：主委，高鐵延伸宜蘭，這是整個環臺高快速路網一個很重要的區塊，近期內我們對於高鐵要延伸宜蘭也有許多討論的過程，總經費從一開始的近千億，到現在可能已經要上看到4,000億了，那現在在坊間常常都會聽到一句話，就是「現在不做，以後就會後悔」，我相信對於我們國家一個重大建設的推動，我覺得應該是永續、進步的一個程序啦！不過礙於財劃法的修正，我們現在擔心高鐵延伸到宜蘭的部分，會不會延誤到相關的期程？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，因為北北基宜成為臺北市首都生活圈這樣的一個計畫，所以關於交通，高鐵延伸宜蘭市是有其必要，也是行政院的重大政策，我是工程委員會的主任委員，我當然有權力來督導或來建議或來指示這個國家的重大建設，因為我擔任政務委員，同時也督導交通部、內政部、環境部，所以我當然希望這個國家的重大建設如期如質地來完成。","目前的進度就是環境影響評估報告書二階的部分，交通部鐵道局已經完成了，那麼送環境部來審查，因為這個高鐵是當初直線鐵路可行研究的替代方案，所以後來鐵道局也補了一個修正計畫，這個可行的修正計畫是繞過翡翠水庫的集水區，目前都在進行中。我因為這樣的角色，我督導這樣的一個工程，我們希望這個工程如期，在今年年底之前行政院能夠核定，不過核定之前必須要通過環評，所以環評如果沒有其他問題，希望它能夠獨立來審查，因為環評委員會是獨立審查嘛！合議審查，所以如果沒有相關的問題，希望它能夠儘速來審查、審議這個環評案，我們目前進度不會受影響。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝主委。我希望高鐵延伸宜蘭的部分，無論如何要拜託主委，在督導的部分一定要落實，為什麼？因為不能再等了，已經等那麼久了，好不容易我們已經走到這個階段，我相信這個是所有宜蘭人引頸期盼，對外的一條高快速聯絡道路啦！也可以讓未來我們要環臺6小時的一個交通路網趕快做銜接，作為東部三鐵共構站的一個起點，這個部分無論如何要拜託主委，在督導方面一定要確實地掌握期程。"],["陳主任委員金德：沒錯，過去因為東西部建設不平均嘛！以賴總統他均衡臺灣的理念，交通建設是重要的一環，如果今天高鐵能夠延伸到宜蘭，它將來有一天就會延伸到花蓮，就會到臺東，就會連結到屏東，那麼整個臺灣由高鐵來串連，我覺得這對臺灣是一件好事，它不只是東部人的高鐵，任何人也會到東部。"],["陳委員俊宇：是全國在使用。"],["陳主任委員金德：是全國人民重大的一個交通建設，所以到宜蘭或者是南邊到屏東，只是一個起點，將來就會到臺東，將來就會到花蓮。"],["陳委員俊宇：是，好。另外要拜託政委的就是我們的環山步道，因為宜蘭縣的山邊，山上的步道非常完善，只是欠缺串連，當然在政委您提出要建置環山步道之後，已經陸續都有成效出來，那5年內完工的部分會不會因為財劃法而帶來什麼影響？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個環山步道就是納入國家綠道，希望過去有歷史文化的步道或有觀光價值、健行價值的把它串連起來。宜蘭的環山步道指的就是淡蘭古道，當初到宜蘭開墾的先民就是走淡蘭古道，一直到蘇花古道，那麼沿著山邊能夠形成五環，由中央相關單位及宜蘭縣政府來協助，這部分的經費是不多，有的都是1,000萬以內，所以我們儘量克服，希望6年之內來完成宜蘭環山步道的五環，提供給北部民眾，甚至所有的民眾到宜蘭可以有一個輕旅行，或者是把整個步道串連，不管露營等等都好，這個是服務所有的民眾。"],["陳委員俊宇：是。北起嶐嶺步道，南至蘇花古道310公里，這個構想提出之後，我要跟主委您報告，有很多登山客都在期待，期待這一條步道可以真的儘早來打通，讓他們在登山休閒的過程裡面有一個新的選擇，因為從這個環山步道觀看整個太平洋是非常漂亮的，尤其我們宜蘭的山景跟平原的景色，在全國來看是獨一無二啦！所以我在此懇切拜託主委，對於這個部分來督導相關部會，包括東北角風景區管理處、林保署以及縣政府，能夠配合這個工程儘早來完工。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個環山步道是20年前就已經規劃完畢，一直延到現在我們重新啟動，希望能夠儘速來完成。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝陳俊宇委員。","現在請李柏毅委員、李柏毅委員、李柏毅委員。","現在請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},{"id":"159271","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159271","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb453d7eaa28d84954fc70f51a359b58cfb6aeebfddff728ef0c1acf7fe19f66a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"12:13:33 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我相信媒體朋友不管在現場的或是在辦公室的他們其實也都知道啦 我坦白講在現在的這個預算的這個過程中啊不管是看到行政團隊去下降旋轉 旋降許多的機關在民眾的認知上 那他其實感覺起來都有KPI啦"},{"start":290.996,"end":319.999,"text":"那其實像總統府的KPI就是大家的點心被取消了還或者是總統府不分時間要熄燈了或是不讓民眾來去做這個參觀但是許多單位各式各樣的一個做法來去講這個預算那回頭來講民眾的各自有解讀但是我是覺得在工程委員會其實大家也是在做也是為人民做事包括主委"},{"start":320.74,"end":339.294,"text":"那所以金職獎的部分在辦理上我覺得如果到最後會變成這個工程會的KPI的話那這個會甚為可惜所以我還是希望說主委能夠往辦理的方向來去進行那至於剛才有委有提到說這個預算綁住人民的手腳我坦白講"},{"start":340.094,"end":363.032,"text":"大家要去思考在過去的這一年那其實我們看到我相信工程會的預算大家在使用上也是盡心盡力所以那時候在交通委員會的甚至好像交通委員會的委員不分藍綠其他都是支持但是我們看到包括救安基金他的這個經費預算拿去辦演唱會包括拿去做室內的高級裝潢"},{"start":364.173,"end":379.218,"text":"那包括其實其他單位都有傳出這些預算使用不當的這個問題那我覺得在我們民意代表的角色上本來就是務實來監督來去審查預算所以凍結的部分我坦白講如果今天任何一個民意代表"},{"start":379.858,"end":404.736,"text":"在監督預算的時候那都不去做任何合理監督、理性監督、嚴格監督的情況我相信這也不是全民所樂見那所以說今天綁住的不是機關的預算反而是綁住像過去的這些例子那我覺得將來如果合理的部分我們大家一定會支持但是還是要請不管是工程會或是各單位在預算的解凍報告上"},{"start":405.396,"end":430.135,"text":"那還是要盡力的來去讓社會各界寫的東西能夠讓大家能夠接受檢驗那我相信大家也會那過去的話其實在解冬季專案的許多報告上其他的單位有些解讀就草草一張紙那並不一定把認真的把這個解冬的過程解冬的內容執行的情況有詳細的跟社會各界交代那也同樣來這個機會也跟大家就是"},{"start":430.856,"end":458.379,"text":"就是請大家在解凍案未來再提的時候相關的報告我相信這個執行率還要包括這個內容來講其實預算案大家全民都在看現在都攤在陽光底下我們提了什麼樣的案子都可以可供檢驗那同樣的未來解凍案的這些書面資料書面報告跟執行率跟相關的理由事由我相信也是會被社會各界所檢驗所以我還是在這裡還是勉勵大家還能夠盡力的來去努力"},{"start":458.979,"end":475.715,"text":"那最後的話我再針對這個35座橋樑被評為U4整齊那南投的綠美橋有沒有在名單之內南投的橋沒有U3 U4的好那目前來講全國的這個部分那相關的近期的橋樑檢測計畫"},{"start":477.296,"end":504.936,"text":"那預計這U4的部分什麼時候可以把它完全修復U4就是要立即處理所以我們會通知那個主管機關或者是維修的機關要最迅速的來處理那其他的一年內要處理的我們會請這些機關提他的維修或者是改善的計畫好那最後的話就是本席針對剛才有提到推動淨林建築的部分那請問一下工程會目前的立場跟進度為何"},{"start":506.558,"end":529.266,"text":"淨零是我們政府的總目標2050那我剛才的說法是這樣就是說有排碳有固碳希望能夠綜合以公共工程來講他的目標不會是只有淨零排碳這件事情他有安全有結構安全有方便有設計所以這是一個總目標的最適設計所以不能說以"},{"start":530.346,"end":546.68,"text":"排碳為唯一的目標讓其他的設計要配合這個排碳那其他的結構安全怎麼辦呢比方說鋼構一定比磚排碳更多那難道我們都以排碳為目標所以所有的房子都要磚造嗎不是嘛"},{"start":547.04,"end":573.654,"text":"所以它是一個綜合的設計那淨零當然我們要重視所以我們全生命週期的包括這個建材它在生產過程這個在開採過程或者是我們就地取材減少運輸那綜合的來把這個碳啊能夠減下來這是我們的目標我們也會全力以赴也會督導其他的所有的主辦機關來注意到關於排碳這件事情要自我檢核"},{"start":574.994,"end":602.793,"text":"好 那因為這是剛才延續洪孟愷委員所提問的那讓你能夠補充說明那本席也同樣希望在相關的建築工程的話公共總委會絕對是專業中的專業但是也由於你也就是身兼政委員以及過去對地方上面機關上面也都非常熟悉業務那這個兩者之間的平衡那還是由來主委會來來講來推動還也可以跟後續跟委員會大家再做個報告好 謝謝"},{"start":606.325,"end":608.505,"text":"好謝謝尤浩偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":790,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（12時13分）謝謝召委。主席，有請陳金德陳主委。"],["主席：好，陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["游委員顥：主委早。剛才有提到在政府採購契約當中有關國家安全的部分，是否會認為屬於涉及國家安全採購？這個當然是回到自由心證，我相信任何的民生基礎設施都是屬於國家安全重要的一環，這樣沒錯吧！"],["陳主任委員金德：工程會能做的希望比較具體。"],["游委員顥：具體化的話必須要有規範或者是指引。"],["陳主任委員金德：具體就是說他的公司或者是對象等等比較具體，國家安全的部分必須配合相關單位認定。"],["游委員顥：我想直接請教一下主委，以目前來講，在賴清德總統發表談話之後，這三、四天國際情勢也有非常多變化，包括福建這邊也開始要進行軍演，還有中國大陸那邊，臺灣這邊也是人心惶惶，日本九州那邊也要部署長程的導彈。我想問一下，在賴總統談話之後，這三、四天有沒有感受到兩岸之間的緊張程度明顯升溫？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，我的確不好意思這樣回答啦，對岸對臺灣的不友善跟侵略的野心從來沒改變過。"],["游委員顥：那我想問一下，所以說你是認為有持續升溫了？"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，這段時間以來，他的戰機也好，軍艦也好，隨時要來就來，這不會是一個友善的……"],["游委員顥：沒關係，因為我們這邊也不是外交及國防委員會，我是認為你剛才的回答其實也是認為持續升溫。我在這裡還是要再次強調，過去馬英九總統執政時期這8年，其實都沒有這些狀況，賴清德總統在發表談話之後，其實國家安全，我相信不分藍綠大家都重視，包括全民也都重視，在這段期間來講，我覺得確實是明顯升溫，所以回到剛才國家安全的這一環，如果說要的話，工程會相關的準則可以讓大家在填寫時有相關的指引。延續後面要提問的，剛才你有提到了，當然在這個過程中，我還是肯定工程會的同仁，公家機關的公務員包括主委，也是非常盡力在把工作做好。我想一直有提到金質獎，到現在已經辦了二十幾年，我想不分藍綠的委員，其實都希望金質獎能夠在今年持續舉辦，這沒錯嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：當然，因為這個金質獎各界很重視，也都長期在準備，我們是希望它不要間斷，能夠繼續辦。"],["游委員顥：好，希望主委能夠讓它持續舉辦，因為我必須坦白說，目前雖然是凍50，但是這個部分並不是針對金質獎去做凍結，如果再提到媒體宣傳費，我坦白說，剛才有人提到這個部分凍的話，是不是1450或是特定媒體？我坦白講，不要說委員有這麼提到，許多民眾其實也都會有這樣的疑慮，在任何一個解凍的過程中，我把過去在第一會期的資料調出來，那時候在解凍案的部分，如果在去（113）年的時候，中央政府總預算關於公共工程委員會解凍案等幾案，均同意動支，提報院會，所以經費的解凍還是有它的文字跟有它的法規，所以我是覺得到時候你要提解凍案，我相信不分藍綠，其實也絕對都支持金質獎的相關經費，能夠持續來去做一個辦理，所以我是覺得在金質獎方面，我相信不分藍綠，主委跟大家、跟許多工程界都特別重視，我還是希望往辦理的方向進行。","我相信媒體朋友不管在現場的或是在辦公室，他們其實也都知道啦！坦白講，在現在這個預算的過程中，不管是看到行政團隊下鄉宣講，許多機關在民眾的認知上，感覺起來都有KPI，像總統府的KPI就是大家的點心被取消了，或者是總統府部分時間要熄燈了，或是不讓民眾去參觀，但是許多單位有各式各樣的作法來去講這個預算，回頭來講，民眾各自有解讀，但是我覺得在工程委員會，其實大家也是在為人民做事，包括主委，所以關於辦理金質獎的部分，我覺得如果到最後會變成工程會的KPI的話會甚為可惜，所以我還是希望主委能夠往辦理的方向來去進行。","至於剛才有委員提到這個預算綁住人民的手腳，我坦白講，大家要去思考在過去的這一年，我相信工程會的預算大家在使用上也是盡心盡力，所以那時候在交通委員會的審查，我相信交通委員會的委員不分藍綠，其實大家都是支持的，但是我們看到包括就安基金的經費、預算拿去辦演唱會，包括拿去做室內的高級裝潢，其實許多單位都有傳出預算使用不當的問題，我覺得在我們民意代表的角色上，本來就是務實來監督、來去審查預算，所以凍結的部分坦白講，如果今天任何一個民意代表在監督預算的時候，都不去做任何合理監督、理性監督、嚴格監督的情況，我相信這也不是全民所樂見，所以今天綁住的不是機關的預算，反而是綁住像過去的這些例子。我覺得將來如果合理的部分，我們大家一定會支持，但是還是要請工程會或是各單位在預算解凍的報告上，還是要盡力去讓社會各界瞭解，寫的東西能夠接受大家的檢驗，我相信大家也會啦！","過去的話，其實在解凍預算案的許多報告上，其他的單位有些解凍案就草草一張紙，並不一定認真地把解凍的過程、解凍的內容及執行的情況詳細地向社會各界交代，所以同樣也藉這個機會，請大家未來在提解凍案相關報告的時候，包括執行率還有內容來講，其實預算案大家全民都在看，現在都攤在陽光底下，我們提了什麼樣的案子都可供檢驗，同樣的，未來解凍案的這些書面資料、書面報告、執行率及相關的理由事由，我相信也是會被社會各界所檢驗，所以我在這裡還是勉勵大家能夠盡力去努力。","最後，針對35座橋梁被評為U4等級，南投的綠美橋有沒有在名單之內？"],["陳主任委員金德：南投的橋沒有U3、U4的。"],["游委員顥：好。目前來講，全國的這個部分，近期相關的橋梁檢測計畫，預計U4的部分什麼時候可以完全修復？"],["陳主任委員金德：U4就是要立即處理，所以我們會函或通知主管機關或者是維修的機關要最迅速來處理，至於其他一年內要處理的，我們會請這些機關提它的維修或者是改善的計畫。"],["游委員顥：好。最後，針對剛才提到推動淨零建築的部分，請問工程會目前的立場與進度為何？"],["陳主任委員金德：淨零是我們政府的總目標，2050啦！我剛才的說法是這樣，就是說有排碳有固碳，我們希望能夠綜合。以公共工程來講，它的目標不會是只有淨零排碳這件事情，它有安全，有結構安全，有方便，有設計，所以這是一個總目標的最適設計，不能說以排碳為唯一的目標，讓其他的設計要配合排碳，那其他的結構安全怎麼辦呢？比方說鋼構一定比磚排碳更多，難道我們都要以排碳為目標，所有的房子都要磚造嗎？不是嘛！所以它是一個綜合的設計，淨零當然我們要重視，所以我們全生命週期的，包括建材它在生產過程、開採過程，或者是我們就地取材減少運輸，綜合地來把碳能夠減下來，這是我們的目標，我們也會全力以赴，也會督導其他所有主辦機關來注意到關於排碳這件事情要自我檢核。"],["游委員顥：好，因為這是延續剛才洪孟楷委員所提問的，讓你能夠補充說明，本席也同樣希望在相關的建築工程的話，公共工程委員會絕對是專業中的專業，但是也由於你身兼政務委員，以及過去對於地方上面、機關上面也都非常熟悉業務，兩者之間的平衡還是有賴主委未來來推動，後續也可以跟委員會大家再做個報告，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員。","現在請陳俊宇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},{"id":"159270","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159270","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbe599dd2f1a48f879fc70f51a359b58cfb6aeebfddff728efb530526dddbaabce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:04:52 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來先告訴你速發部早就因應了限制使用危害國家資通安全的產品它在109年的12月就已經對於採購大陸品牌的資通安全設備服務軟體硬體都包含在內好 可是這裡面還包括了什麼不是只是單純的通訊設備喔施工機具裡面也有啊"},{"start":68.419,"end":82.474,"text":"工程營造的國營社裡面也有啊關鍵基礎設施 航港 航空港口都有工程會要怎麼落實這些 呈現在包括了基民的關鍵基礎設施裡面的工程服務啦 設備採購 你怎麼做"},{"start":84.554,"end":106.091,"text":"我想跟委員報告 關於這個中資或中國在台灣成立的公司等等這個原本的採購法或相關的規定都已經有很明確的準則跟辦法好 告訴你 不夠這個在去年5月有就說港口陳柏安破口關鍵就是設施要檢核治安 那時候有一個叫做建華重工"},{"start":106.832,"end":133.27,"text":"起重機港口的起重機它是中國製的最重要是裡面的晶片所以後來港務公司他說根據相關的工業控制系統依照這個相關的基準去進行資安集合資安署也說了以後他們為了勞工的職業安全他們對於這些重機具的補助也排除了中國製造很好那麼您知道國土辦認為除了這兩個部門之外還有哪個部門要做嗎"},{"start":136.912,"end":162.948,"text":"他說請工程會研修工程採購契約範本這裡面提到說國營工單位公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製機具進廠施作不是採購連施作都不可以喔以保障自通安全那麼這裡面他認為說要做到這一點的話工程會要適時的研修工程採購的契約範本我講的是維修工程跟營造工程什麼時候做了研修了沒有"},{"start":165.975,"end":168.41,"text":"趕快回答 時間把握我請祖密來回答"},{"start":170.404,"end":196.331,"text":"跟委員報告 有關這個部分我們草案已經草擬了 我們兩週以內發布兩週以內 好 很好 主委有進度了 我們看一看所以涉及國家安全的採購標準如何認定這是台電的兩個電廠一個他們寫說本採購是涉及國家安全他自己填什麼 沒有另外一個台電新拿發電廠他說是否涉及國家安全 他說是是或不是都是台電自己說的算數嗎主委 可以這樣子嗎"},{"start":198.075,"end":220.408,"text":"有沒有認定標準這就是你們的問題啦你們基本上工程會沒辦法管到那麼多雖然你們等於要求各單位自行竊竊自行檢核但是這個檢核禁不起其他第三方的集合這是工程會要去把關趕快把這個機制建立起來可以嗎 主委跟我們報告是否涉及國家安全是一個概念"},{"start":220.768,"end":248.155,"text":"是 那我們工程會的採購的規定應該有比較具體的比方說是中資或者是公司這樣子的話採購機關才能夠有能夠培訓那如果說有沒有涉及國家安全不然他的上級機關他的主管機關您回去請台電查一查說明這兩件為什麼一件事一件火查清楚再回答可以嗎好好往下看所以呢工程會要這邊怎麼樣你們什麼時候完成"},{"start":248.855,"end":263.006,"text":"據敏感性含資安疑慮的業務範疇及涉及公安權的判定標準它的稽查程序資訊進入範圍公共工程及基礎關鍵設施的施工採購包括它的採購跟服務維修如何防篤中國的滲透竊資跟破壞可以去研擬嗎"},{"start":264.551,"end":287.159,"text":"我們也跟各機關都有互相在討論包括國安單位包括其他單位那麼他碰到問題的時候我們也會再補強相關的規定希望主委積極一點我私下也請過不同單位包括我們工程會來都是說說而已沒有具體進度剛剛很開心聽到兩週內可以看得到我希望後續的具體進度讓本席知道可以嗎"},{"start":289.039,"end":314.458,"text":"但是這個跟委員報告如果說一個概念性的東西應該要比較明確的給我多一點時間去跟其他機關來討論啦所以是立委您的工作重點之一囉有沒有涉及國安這件事情工程會沒辦法單獨認定當然我們只可以認定他採購的對象或採購的這個希望你們配合把這個標準明定出來可以嗎"},{"start":324.564,"end":340.711,"text":"跟委員報告就是說目前當然譬如說是基礎關鍵的設施啊那麼有相關的機關去認定嘛但是在某一些設備裡面到底他屬不屬於涉及到國安呢坦白講並不是工程會好我靠你一提啦維修廠的廠商的他的設備進場去維修要不要檢查"},{"start":342.947,"end":370.998,"text":"港口的洗重機已經禁止中資的了或者他中資裡面他說裡面沒有設晶片我進去維修我把晶片放上去你查得到嗎這包括服務採購都包括在內不是只有工程採購啊這部門會在工程採購企業裡面去規範但是我的意思是說到底哪一些設備哪一些機具會夾在這些東西的話因為並不是工程會的專業是的那我們當然可以會同其他單位來稍微做一個理解但是最後回歸到工程會給各機關一個準據好嗎"},{"start":372.699,"end":392.418,"text":"是好謝謝主委來我們趕快後面一題趕快進行我之前上週才在問建築內設充電樁的爭議租屋大樓啊有電動車的擔心這充電樁會有公安權危險但是呢電動車主認為說沒有充電樁我幹嘛買你的租屋大樓這是一個題目但是其實主委要看一下電動車它其實會移動的儲能設施啊"},{"start":394.62,"end":418.67,"text":"其實呢電動車行駛的時間遠少於靜止時間靜止時間它停在大樓裡面就是一個儲能設施可以供應什麼請看下一頁它可以供應一個虛擬電廠的需求所以現在呢公有建築物的停車設施應該超前部署去思考不是只處理一個住戶大樓的充電狀的設置而已因為公有建築配合上固定型的光電停下的電動車加上EMS系統"},{"start":420.751,"end":437.496,"text":"它才會有儲能設施就會成為台電它在分散尖峰離峰設施的一個規範那這個規範呢有很多單位包括台電包括經濟部請問這麼多單位包括內政部包括國土署包括建築研究所包括交通部主委您身兼政委這幾個部會是不是您在協調"},{"start":438.897,"end":454.885,"text":"能源的部分不是我督導不過我可以對委員的高見非常佩服啦電動車當然是一個微型的儲能的機制但是呢台電必須配合有智慧型的微電網是的你如果全國性的電網這個電動車作為儲能是沒辦法"},{"start":458.695,"end":473.91,"text":"上不去了所以它要有一個區域的微型的智慧型電腦那如果大家都會使用電動車的時候那我們電廠的需求自然會降低是的所以這個部分要超前部署來研擬我已經請教過能源署請教過台電請教過建築研究所"},{"start":474.631,"end":498.457,"text":"他們說呢 這些涉及到跨部會可能不是工程會 必須是曾經的政務委員出面來協調主委可以評估一下嗎 我最後結論兩件事情 請延熙 延逸公共工程及關鍵基礎設施的施工的工程採購落實防篤中國滲透 切之破壞的方案我不要寫一個月啦 請提一個書面報告你們要跟國安單位好好來研究第二個 請政委呢 出面來協調"},{"start":499.557,"end":508.571,"text":"公有建築構築停車設施納維虛擬電廠相關規範以及率先施行的方案這個部分也請你們來研議我不定時間可以嗎好謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":742,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時4分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請陳主任委員。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好。我就儘快的開始進行，標題就請你看一下，我先請教主委，誰是臺灣國家安全的最大威脅？最近總統是不是有講了？"],["陳主任委員金德：如果說國家安全，我們只有一個威脅最大的就是來自對岸對臺灣不友善的政策。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！總統定義中國是境外敵對勢力，針對當前的五大威脅提出17項因應策略，請問工程會怎麼因應？還在想？來，我先告訴你，數發部早就因應了，限制使用危害國家資通安全的產品，他們在109年12月就已經禁止使用及採購大陸品牌的資通安全設備，服務、軟體、硬體都包含在內，這裡面還包括了什麼？不只是單純的通訊設備，施工機具裡面也有，工程營造的國營事業裡面也有，關鍵基礎設施、航空港口都有，請問工程會要怎麼落實這些沉潛在包括了機敏關鍵基礎設施裡面的工程服務、設備採購？你怎麼做？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，關於中資或中國在臺灣成立的公司等等，原本的採購法或相關規定都已經有很明確的準則跟辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我告訴你，不夠！去年5月我就說過，港口成國安破口，關基礎設施應該要檢核資安，那時候有一個叫做振華重工，港口的起重機是中國製的，最重要是裡面的晶片，所以後來港務公司說，實際稽核標準是相關工業控制系統，並依照相關的基準去進行資安稽核。職安署也說，以後他們為了勞工的職業安全，對於這些重機具的補助將排除中國製造。很好！您知道國土辦認為除了這兩個部門之外，還有哪個部門要做嗎？他說請工程會研修工程採購契約範本，這裡面提到國營單位、公共工程及軍事單位，全面禁止中國製機具進場施作，不只是採購，連施作都不可以，以保障資通安全。他認為要做到這點的話，工程會要適時的研修工程採購契約範本。我講的是維修工程跟營造工程，什麼時候做？研修了沒有？趕快回答，時間……"],["陳主任委員金德：我請主秘來回答。"],["羅主任秘書天健：跟委員報告，有關這個部分，我們草案已經草擬了，我們兩週以內發布。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩週以內？很好！主委，有進度了。","主委，我們來看一下涉及國家安全的採購標準如何認定？螢幕上的是台電兩個電廠的採購相關資料，在採購資料中有關「本採購是否屬『涉及國家安全』採購」的部分，台電協和發電廠自己填「否」，台電興達發電廠則填「是」，是或不是都是台電自己說了算數嗎？主委，可以這樣子嗎？有沒有認定標準？"],["陳主任委員金德：呃……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這就是你們的問題啦！基本上工程會沒辦法管到那麼多，所以你們等於是要求各單位自行切結、自行檢核，但是這個檢核禁不起其他第三方的稽核，這是工程會要去把關的，請趕快把這個機制建立起來，可以嗎？主委？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，是否涉及國家安全是一個概念，我們工程會的採購規定應該有比較具體的，比方說是中資或者是公司，這樣的話採購機關才能夠遵循……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的！"],["陳主任委員金德：如果說有沒有涉及國家安全，不然它的上級機關、它的主管機關要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：您回去請台電查一查，說明這兩件為什麼一件「是」、一件「否」，查清楚再回答，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我們再往下看，所以工程會這邊要怎麼樣？主委，你們什麼時候完成「具敏感性或國安（含資安）疑慮之業務範疇」及「涉及國家安全」判定標準？其稽查程序、資訊揭露範圍？公共工程及關鍵基礎設施工程採購（含採購、服務、維修），如何落實防杜中國滲透、竊資及破壞？這個可以去研擬嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個我們跟各機關都有互相在討論，包括國安單位，包括其他單位，他們碰到問題的時候，我們也會來補強相關的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：希望主委積極一點，我私下也請過不同單位過來，包括我們工程會，都是說說而已，沒有具體的進度，剛剛很開心聽到兩週內可以看得到，我希望後續的具體進度讓本席知道，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：但是這個跟委員報告，如果說一個概念性的東西，應該要比較明確的，給我們多一點時間去跟其他機關來討論啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以是列為您的工作重點之一囉？"],["陳主任委員金德：有沒有涉及國安這件事情，工程會沒辦法單獨認定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們只可以認定他採購的對象或採購的這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：希望你們配合把這個標準明定出來，可以嗎？不然採購機關怎麼知道要怎麼配合？"],["陳主任委員金德：我請副主委來說明。"],["鍾委員佳濱：時間有限。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：跟委員報告，目前譬如說關鍵基礎設施有相關的機關去認定，但是在某一些設備裡面，到底它屬不屬於涉及到國安，坦白講，並不是工程會……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我考你一題啦，維修廠廠商的設備進廠去維修要不要檢查？港口的起重機已經禁止中資的了，或者說中資裡面，他說裡面沒有設晶片，我進去維修，我把晶片放上去，你查得到嗎？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：這種……"],["鍾委員佳濱：連服務採購都包括在內。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是、是、是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是只有工程採購。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：這部分我們會在工程採購契約裡面去規範，但是我的意思是說，到底哪一些設備、哪一些機具會夾帶這些東西？因為這並不是工程會的專業。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["陳副主任委員為祥：我們當然可以會同其他單位來稍微做一個釐清。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是最後要回歸到工程會給各機關一個準據，好嗎？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝副主委，我們趕快進行後面一題。我上週才在問關於建築內設充電樁的爭議，住戶大樓有電動車的話，擔心設充電樁會有公共安全危險，但是電動車主認為沒有充電樁的話，我幹嘛買你的住戶大樓？這是一個題目，但是主委要看一下，電動車是會移動的儲能設施，其實電動車行駛的時間遠少於靜止時間，而靜止時間它停在大樓裡面就是一個儲能設施，可以供應什麼？它可以供應一個虛擬電廠的需求，所以現在公有建築物的停車設施應該超前部署去思考，不是只處理一個住戶大樓的充電樁設施而已，因為公有建築配合屋頂型光電，停下來的電動車加上EMS系統，它成為儲能設施就會成為台電在分散尖峰、離峰設施的一個規範，這個規範有很多單位，包括台電、包括經濟部、包括內政部、包括國土署、包括建築研究所、包括交通部這麼多單位，主委，您身兼政委，這幾個部會是不是您在協調？"],["陳主任委員金德：能源的部分不是我督導，不過對委員的高見非常佩服。電動車當然是一個微型的儲能機制，但是台電必須配合智慧型的微電網，如果全國性的電網，電動車作為儲能是送不上去的，所以要有一個區域的、微型的智慧型電網，如果大家都使用電動車的時候，那我們電廠的需求自然會降低。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，所以這個部分要超前部署來研擬，我已經請教過能源署、請教過台電、請教過建築研究所，他們說這些涉及到跨部會，可能不是工程會，必須是陳金德政務委員出面來協調，主委可以評估一下嗎？我最後的結論有兩件事情：請研議「公共工程及關鍵基礎設施工程採購，落實防杜中國滲透、竊資、破壞」之方案，我不要寫一個月啦，請提出一個書面報告，你們要跟國安單位好好來研究。第二個，請政委出面來協調「公有建築構築停車設施納為虛擬電廠之相關規範及率先施行方案」，這個部分也請你們來研議，我不訂時間，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝我們鍾佳濱委員。接下來請游顥委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},{"id":"159269","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159269","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb69f18cf697007c70a4d8ee7d728f0553b6aeebfddff728efb9131942535bd7ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"12:17:08 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有請主委請主委被質詢 謝謝"},{"start":12.097,"end":21.54,"text":"黃委員好主委好我想今天大概已經先前都有些委員有問您有關於台積電赴美社廠的問題那麼3月3號美國總統宣布台積電會在美國加碼投資1000億那麼這個新聞當然也引起了國內多人的許多民眾的關注尤其台積電是我們的護國神山又享有最關鍵最核心的一些晶圓的技術"},{"start":40.606,"end":53.115,"text":"所以呢對於就是這一次台積電到美國去設廠不知道主委知不知道說他們預計會在那裡興建多少奈米的晶圓廠或是說他們可能會在那裡設置什麼樣的廠"},{"start":54.124,"end":75.173,"text":"目前台積電在亞利桑那州設的第一個廠已經在運作了它是4奈米的製程接下來還有兩個廠陸續會蓋好開始運作可能就是會進到3奈米甚至到2奈米但是這個時程其實還要幾年以後也就是說"},{"start":79.355,"end":95.344,"text":"台積電的這個最先進的製程一定是在台灣研發到量產量產以後他才會把成熟的這個量產的技術會擴散到我們所投資的這個海外的這個基地好那所以呢按照主委的意思就是說其實現在台積電到美國這個副廠然後"},{"start":100.186,"end":112.859,"text":"接下來計劃可能會設置2奈米或是4奈米的晶圓廠基本上不是屬於我們國家國安法裡面所要管制的關鍵技術是嗎"},{"start":114.359,"end":136.184,"text":"美國本來就科技比我們進步我們不可能管制我們的科技到美國科技項目我們有所謂管制國家請問一下我們在國安法的第三條裡面有講到什麼叫國家核心的關鍵技術請問主委那您認為台積電的技術不算是核心的關鍵"},{"start":137.804,"end":162.652,"text":"核心關鍵技術是嗎?核心關鍵技術大概很難用製程的節點來概括譬如說兩奈米的技術,現在包含三星電子也說它有兩奈米技術包含美國的Intel也說它有,甚至它是1.8A,還講18A這個技術能不能進到量產"},{"start":163.992,"end":170.977,"text":"那有很多的製造的know-how存在這種製造的know-how台積電是不會洩漏給別人的所以簡單來說您認為說只有在研發階段在量產之前的這個才是屬於我們國家要管制的核心技術然後量產之後就不算"},{"start":185.027,"end":201.125,"text":"包括讓你去設廠然後接下來可能會有這個很多的相關的設備廠商一起去那這些因為他們都屬於量產了而且可能是都標準化設備化了所以這些不是屬於我們國家的關鍵技術大家都可以到那去設廠"},{"start":202.671,"end":221.47,"text":"報告委員我再解釋一下我說譬如說量奈米的技術我們到美國去投資也是要經過我們經濟部投審會它是在我們自己量產技術成熟的已經在台灣製造以後我們才會討論這個事至於說它能不能到其他國家這個又是另外一回事因為我們有所謂的這個"},{"start":223.786,"end":238.596,"text":"所謂在這個國際上被制裁的一些國家是管制的是更更嚴格還有更傳統製程的這個技術也都成熟的技術也都不能過去的所以這是兩回事那這一部分是經濟部在負責好您剛講的經濟部頭審會所以現在經濟部頭審會已經有接受到台積電有來申請投資的相關的計劃嗎"},{"start":245.469,"end":248.936,"text":"他們應該在準備當中可能還沒有見到如果說經濟部投審會在審查相關案子的時候會諮詢國科會的意見嗎"},{"start":257.121,"end":269.545,"text":"國科會應該有代表會有代表會有代表我們知道其實國科會本身依照國安法授權法的規定要設置國家核心關鍵技術審議會這個審議會其實在去年年底的時候"},{"start":276.334,"end":302.047,"text":"有重新修正過最新的這個國家核心關鍵技術清單那現在我只是在PPT上面爐裂的這些技術項目當中有沒有涵蓋到這次台積電可能會到美國去設廠可能會帶去的技術美國並不是我們這些技術管制的國家是嗎 來我們回到前面第三條來請念一下"},{"start":307.168,"end":315.94,"text":"國家核心關係技術是指如流入外國大陸地區香港澳門或境外敵對勢力將重大損害國家安全產業競爭力請問美國是不是外國"},{"start":319.497,"end":323.758,"text":"我們剛講的那個是投資設廠我剛講關鍵技術我們是不會外流的關鍵技術的部分我們所管制的一些關鍵技術你怎麼這麼確認就不會外流廠都到了美國了"},{"start":341.617,"end":354.514,"text":"如果他有外流就違法嘛 違法就需要處罰所以現在台積電可能會帶過去的技術不在你們所管制的技術項目裡面"},{"start":357.982,"end":379.333,"text":"是嗎?不法外流要被加重刑罰處罰不法外流的話,如果是那個技術當然不法外流才會處罰我,現在是問您很簡單的問題就是台積電現在要過去的這個設廠會帶過去的這些技術算不算是列在你們這個核心關鍵技術項目清單裡嗎?"},{"start":383.527,"end":390.41,"text":"當然我這方面是外行像什麼晶片安全技術量子位元製程技術這不是都是你們自己國科會自己寫的嗎"},{"start":393.494,"end":400.657,"text":"我們這個就是要在投審會裡面審查那看看有沒有這是兩回事我要釐清在法規上面來講這個國家核心關鍵技術項目清單這是基於國安法裡面然後授權國科會要設置技術審議委員會要掳列這些清單所以如果違反這個清單的話它是會觸犯國安法的而且罰則很重"},{"start":420.276,"end":448.483,"text":"是,但是國科會只是負責我們各部會提報的這些項目我們在這個審議會裡面審查所以你們確認了嗎?你們已經公告了這份清單嘛我們確認這些清單但是這些清單在執行的時候還是要回到主管的部會來認定它但是從國科會的角度認為要在那裡要設置2奈米、3奈米或4奈米的這個廠這些技術難道不算是台灣的我跟委員報告"},{"start":450.604,"end":461.149,"text":"半導體的技術美國比台灣還要先進那既然如此他幹嘛硬是要逼著台積電去設廠那我剛剛提的就是說先進製程的製造台灣比他們強其實在一般的學校裡面做研究教授果然理論很強"},{"start":473.243,"end":485.32,"text":"但是Technician很重要啊所以Technician他的know-how很重要啊這個應該也是屬於我們的關鍵技術但是這一部分連政府都不清楚的我跟委員報告"},{"start":485.822,"end":503.468,"text":"是你說我們政府不清楚還是政府無權去介入他們的機密啊我們無權啊除非他有違法你才有執法的能力去進去啊他沒有違法你沒有辦法其實主委我很贊同您的看法但是我們現在國安法就定得這麼的清楚"},{"start":504.682,"end":521.348,"text":"對不對他因為可能會違反一些關鍵技術所以呢這個之後我是覺得您現在說法有點像是限台積電於不義或是限經濟部其他的主管機關那未來到底要不要去了解他的關鍵技術還是說你們只是列了一個大框架然後之後呢想要處罰任何一個廠商就依照說我就是屬於違反這個項目的清單裡面我就可以罰那我不想罰的時候就不罰譬如說台積電"},{"start":531.952,"end":534.255,"text":"他即便是帶走了這麼重要的觀念技術我們都還是可以認為我們還有營業秘密法就是我們對保護廠商啊"},{"start":539.45,"end":562.262,"text":"國安法跟營業秘密法哪個是特別法這個我不清楚所以這個部分因為我今天時間是有限我希望就是主委回去可以跟你的團隊好好的去study一下博客會在這件事情上面的角色還有跟其他法規的一些相關競合的問題我們謝謝汪小林委員的質詢我想今天的這個內容我想是不是"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（12時17分）謝謝召委，有請主委。"],["主席：請主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：主委好。今天先前大概都已經有委員有問您有關於台積電赴美設廠的問題，3月3號美國總統宣布台積電會在美國加碼投資1,000億，這個新聞當然也引起了國內許多民眾的關注，尤其台積電是我們的護國神山，又享有最關鍵、最核心的晶圓製造技術，所以，對於這一次台積電到美國去設廠，不知道主委知不知道，他們預計會在那裡興建多少奈米的晶圓廠，或是說他們可能會在那裡設置什麼樣的廠？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前台積電在亞利桑那州設的第一個廠已經在運作了，它是4奈米的製程，接下來還有兩個廠陸續會蓋好開始運作，可能就會進到3奈米甚至到2奈米，但是這個時程其實還要幾年以後，也就是說台積電最先進的製程一定是在臺灣研發到量產，量產以後，他才會把成熟量產的技術擴散到我們所投資的海外基地。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以按照主委的意思就是說，現在台積電到美國投資設廠，接下來計畫可能會設置2奈米或者是您剛剛講的4奈米製程的晶圓廠，基本上它不是屬於我們國安法裡面所要管制的關鍵技術。是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：美國本來科技就比我們進步，我們不可能管制我們的科技到美國，科技項目……"],["翁委員曉玲：是喔。來，麻煩下一頁……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們有所謂的管制國家。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。好，那請問一下，我們在國安法的第三條裡面有講到什麼叫國家的核心關鍵技術。請問主委，您認為台積電的技術不算是核心關鍵技術？是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：核心關鍵技術大概很難用製程的節點來概括，譬如說2奈米的技術，現在包含三星電子也說它有2奈米技術，包含美國的Intel也說它有，甚至它是1.8，它講18A，這個技術能不能進到量產，有很多製造的know-how存在。這種製造的know-how，台積電是不會洩漏給別人的。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以簡單來說，您認為只有在研發階段、在量產之前的，這個才是屬於我們國家要管制的核心技術？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：量產之後就不算？包含讓你去設廠，接下來可能會有很多相關的設備廠商一起去，這些因為它們都屬於量產了，而且可能都標準化、設備化了，所以這些不是屬於我們國家的關鍵技術，大家都可以到那兒去設廠？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我再解釋一下，譬如2奈米的技術，我們到美國去投資，也是要經過我們經濟部投審會，它是在我們自己量產、技術成熟了，已經在臺灣製造以後我們才會討論這個事。至於它能不能到其他國家，這個又是另外一回事，因為所謂在國際上被制裁的一些國家，管制得更嚴格，還有更傳統製程的技術、成熟的技術也都不能過去，所以這是兩回事，這一部分是經濟部負責。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，您剛剛講到經濟部投審會，現在經濟部投審會已經接收到台積電申請投資的相關計畫嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：他們應該在準備當中，可能還沒有進到……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，如果經濟部投審會在審查相關案子的時候，會諮詢國科會的意見嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會應該有代表。"],["翁委員曉玲：會有代表嘛！我們知道，其實國科會本身依照現在國安法授權的規定，要設置國家核心關鍵技術審議會，這個審議會其實在去年年底有重新修正過最新的國家核心關鍵技術清單，主委，在我PPT上面臚列的這些技術項目當中，有沒有涵蓋到這次台積電到美國設廠可能會帶去的技術？"],["吳主任委員誠文：美國並不是我們這些技術管制的國家……"],["翁委員曉玲：是嗎？我們回到前面第三條，請唸一下：「國家核心關鍵技術，指如流入外國、大陸地區、香港、澳門或境外敵對勢力……"],["吳主任委員誠文：對不起，我更正……"],["翁委員曉玲：「將重大損害國家安全、產業競爭力……」請問美國是不是外國？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對不起，我更正一下。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["吳主任委員誠文：對不起，我們剛剛講的那個是投資設廠。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["吳主任委員誠文：那我剛剛講，回過頭來講關鍵技術，我們是不會外流的。關鍵技術的部分，我們所管制的一些關鍵技術，那……"],["翁委員曉玲：您怎麼那麼確認就不會外流？廠都到了美國了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果他有外流就違法，違法我們就需要處罰，那……"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以現在就是台積電會可能會帶過去的技術，不在你們所管制的技術項目裡面，是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不法外流的話，如果是那個技術……"],["翁委員曉玲：當然不法外流才會處罰，我現在是問您很簡單的問題，就是台積電現在要過去設廠會帶過去的這些技術，算不算是列在你們這個核心關鍵技術項目清單裡？當然我在這方面是外行，像什麼晶片安全技術、量子位元製程技術，這不是都是你們國科會自己寫的嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們這個就是要在投審會裡面審查，看看有沒有……"],["翁委員曉玲：這是兩回事，我要釐清。在法規上面來講，國家核心關鍵技術項目清單，這是基於國安法裡面的規定，然後授權國科會設置技術審議委員會，要臚列這些清單，如果違反這個清單的話，他是會觸犯國安法的，而且罰則很重。看到沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，但是國科會只是負責我們各部會提報的這些項目，我們在這個審議會裡面審查，審查完以後……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這是你們確認了嘛，你們已經公告了這份清單嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，我們確認這些清單，但這些清單在執行的時候還是要回到主管部會來認定它……"],["翁委員曉玲：但是從國科會的角度，你認不認為在那裡要設置2奈米、3奈米或4奈米的廠，這些技術難道不算是臺灣的國家核心關鍵技術？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我跟委員報告，半導體的技術美國比臺灣還要先進，半導體的技術。"],["翁委員曉玲：既然如此，他幹嘛硬是要逼著臺灣台積電去設廠？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我剛剛提的就是，先進製程的製造臺灣比他們強。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以know-how很重要。"],["吳主任委員誠文：製造有很多know-how。"],["翁委員曉玲：就像我們在講，其實在一般學校裡面做研究，教授固然理論很強，但是technician很重要……"],["吳主任委員誠文：他不見得做得出來。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，沒有錯。所以technician的know-how很重要，這應該也是屬於我們的關鍵技術，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，但這一部分連政府都不清楚的，我跟委員報告。"],["翁委員曉玲：你說我們政府不清楚，還是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：政府無權去介入他們的機密，我們無權，除非他有違法，你才有執法的能力而進入；他沒有違法，你沒有辦法，政府不能……"],["翁委員曉玲：其實主委，我很贊同您的看法，但是我們現在國安法就定得這麼清楚，對不對？他因為可能會違反一些關鍵技術，所以這個之後……"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，但……"],["翁委員曉玲：我覺得您現在的說法有點像是陷台積電於不義，或者是陷經濟部其他的主管機關……那未來到底要不要去了解它的關鍵技術，還是你們只是列了一個大框架，之後想要處罰任何一個廠商就說那是屬於違反這個項目的清單裡面，我就可以罰，那我不想罰的時候就不罰？譬如台積電，他即便是帶走了這麼重要的關鍵技術，我們都還是可以認為不構成。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們還有營業秘密法，就是我們得保護廠商，這……"],["翁委員曉玲：國安法跟營業秘密法哪個是特別法？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個我不清楚。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，所以這個部分，因為我今天時間有限，我希望主委回去可以跟你的團隊好好地study一下國科會在這件事情上面的角色，還有跟其他法規的一些相關競合的問題，以上。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們謝謝翁曉玲委員的質詢，今天的這個內容，我想因為翁曉玲委員還沒問完，但時間到了，是不是請主委書面答復？我也提醒一下主委，剛剛有一些細節是很明確的，也希望您可以尊重立院來明確回復。剛剛關鍵技術有提到14奈米，現在出去的是3奈米、2奈米，您其實是可以回復的，再麻煩您可以根據您的專業和經驗再予以相關的回復。","接著進行質詢，有請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華S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這是兩個 包括委員其實土屋跟這個環評這是兩個不一樣的法規程序如果沒有問題 那為什麼要避開呢沒有避開 我們先看一下法令先看一下法令規定土壤污染評估調查報告跟檢測作業的管理辦法第五條"},{"start":67.06,"end":93.719,"text":"鎖定了這個土壤污染評估值跟測驗這個資料如果照這個資料不得低於以下這個規定你至少一個污染的土地你要檢測如果是原來協和電廠這個面積要245處如果包括那個填奶的地方要303結果你自己去做了一個59點的這個自行的這個檢測保定你要回答那個問題我要提醒你一個很重要的不管是不是台電給你假的這個資料還是錯誤的信息如果沒有問題"},{"start":95.253,"end":106.256,"text":"你們為什麼要避開那你之前為什麼要做你都還知道台積電去高雄那個河地的整治就是污染土地現在還在整治啊"},{"start":107.421,"end":131.774,"text":"你污染的土地沒有整治完怎麼可以上面就開始蓋呢怎麼環評就夠了呢是不是這樣你現在是環境部長你現在是環境部長喔這個不要變成你從民間來的留下來一個污點很重要第一個我先跟你講我先講一個重要概念你污染一個土地河地整治都沒有完成環評就可以夠嗎這是第一個點第二個我最直接問的台電你們如果認為沒問題或者"},{"start":136.207,"end":160.884,"text":"環境部這邊沒問題你們當初為什麼要做更嚴重的你們為什麼要避開那59個有污染的地方就是需要做嘛 對不對是不是這樣現在更讓我生氣了那天2226環評我跟陳昭志跟黃珊珊我們三個立法委員因為我們接到吹哨者的資料啊我們是送進去環境部我知道你那天迴避嘛對不對"},{"start":163.632,"end":169.579,"text":"可是你環境部跟所有的環評委員事先應該已經接到這個資料囉我給你看這個資料來你看看我們看上一張圖這個土壤要怎麼調查他一共有分ABCD你看看有幾個區A區是污染很嚴重的廢水處理廠的部分"},{"start":186.806,"end":195.35,"text":"B區後來調查了 污染比較沒那麼嚴重可是D區就是發電機組這個區域啊非常嚴重 下一張我給你看一下這是台電WTOG自己做出來的喔結果你們把這個東西蓋牌了A區就是剛剛講的廢水處理廠都立原本管制的標準只有0.09"},{"start":215.407,"end":229.389,"text":"這是致癌的這麼嚴重的一個污染污染物超標多少0.659欸超標7.3倍下面就是低區很多都超標了部長當崔少哲把這東西給了立法委員立法委員叫環評委員要先看結果那天"},{"start":245.697,"end":260.862,"text":"你至少要做一個動作嘛把這個資料消化完之後是不是好好去清查一下當天基隆市的市長也在場我的要求完全要合法要合乎規定你至少讓基隆市謝國隆那天也講啊他說儘快他會同你環境部去做這個檢測"},{"start":273.956,"end":280.081,"text":"你做完檢測以後那天環評才有效啊結果你罷完硬上工這樣的環評大會怎麼會是有效的部長我明確做三個要求我今天早上來問了會議紀錄到現在沒有公佈嘛對不對三天內第一個三天內完整公佈歷次的環評的這個審議還有2月26號會議的這個紀錄"},{"start":303.018,"end":321.899,"text":"特別是土壤污染的評估報告可以嗎 法定法務委員這個是基隆要宣告所謂的土壤污染管制區是基隆市政府他要去查的地方政府那我們已經交代我們的環管署到那個地方要配合基隆市環保局去查到底有沒有那委員你提出的這個所謂的"},{"start":322.379,"end":338.593,"text":"介紹者 催哨者 歡迎到接避者保護我一定馬上查 馬上處理這段的過程我們會馬上處理從環評的程序裡面說得很清楚環評的程序跟土屋管制兩個是不一樣的法規程序像南部的你說的例如說很多的這個要新蓋的"},{"start":339.534,"end":368.145,"text":"污染了要開發他的規劃環評還是可以照走但是他如果要開發一定要整治完了之後才會開發現在他不過現在根本就是不是土壤的管制的區域那他過去106年曾經發現過107到08年邪惡電廠已經改善了現在不是那現在未來如果公告是的話那他未來就進入到那個程序嚴重誤會了吹哨者把護拿來的不是舊的東西喔是最近台電委託自行去調查的"},{"start":368.965,"end":383.712,"text":"你如果沒有需要你為什麼要調查你為什麼要移開要避開而且是新的資料你絕對不要被誤導的不是舊的資料是新的這是第一個點第一個點來第二個更重要來來來當場環評大會要開對不對你有新的市政出現嘛你是不是應該停下來那天謝國亮已經講了他盡快會同你環境部去調查完"},{"start":393.704,"end":412.664,"text":"你說調查完真的沒有問題 是誣衛你 對不對那你環評就過了啊你現在顛倒病啊 你現在先過了環評然後你現在去調查 調查出來有問題怎麼辦所以這個根本就是一個無效的啊霸王硬上弓又違反程序違法的一個環評啊 是不是這樣報告委員這是兩個不一樣的法規程序"},{"start":413.482,"end":438.983,"text":"不一樣的法規可是一定要做啊要不然的話他如果要開發他如果要開發要把土壤整治完成才可以開發啊你今天有誤對我知道你的意思啦可是第一個如果有污染你就要先要去要求他做這個事嘛對不對你當場沒有做你來通過環評第二個是部長您在講的啊你要先確認啊要不然你怎麼後來有整治的問題等一下等一下啦來來來所以做三件事情第一個法定三天內"},{"start":441.826,"end":452.322,"text":"公布歷次環評的會議特別是土地污染的評估報告你有問題嗎土地污染的報告不是環評會議的資料是他們做土屋調查的"},{"start":453.85,"end":476.34,"text":"這邊要跟委員說明一下土壤污染評估調查的報告是他們依土屋法去做的調查並不是依我們環評法去調查所以我們環評裡頭只有規定它範疇界定要去調查一個點位所以我們環評的資料當然會議紀錄相關的OK可是土屋調查是另外所以59個地方有污染你特別去挑了一個你為什麼要避開"},{"start":478.303,"end":494.014,"text":"這個什麼台語什麼 你也要注意喔偷天換日是吧你怎麼跟人民可以交代現在我非常明確的要求嘛第一個就是因為有問題所以你才要調查這是一個 所以我要求第一個你把這個調查報告給全民看"},{"start":495.387,"end":509.286,"text":"你有二氧化碳數嗎現在吹哨所來講就是59個地方明明確確都是有汙染啊你後來坐著再去去啊對不對這邊先跟委員報告你看看A跟D都有汙染結果你再去"},{"start":510.547,"end":528.414,"text":"把這個公佈給全民來做公平更重要的他們無染無染的調查報告是他們自行調查報告並不是送到我們審查的報告所以這個可能要請台電自己說明那個而且那個報告也不是我們你搞個環境部耶你要保護安全的保護環境的"},{"start":530.26,"end":549.255,"text":"我們叫依法行政圖跟環評這是本來兩件事情而且他們一定要整治完之後才能做開發這是本來的規定過去以往就是這個樣子所以你發現有污染你是不是應該停下來把它整治好或者是確認完之後才能夠開下一步所以我做了兩個很重要的要求你看一下第一個你把資料把它公佈第二個"},{"start":554.847,"end":576.604,"text":"柏定你看這個要求這個很明確嘛依法跟依程序嘛土壤評估報告裡面如果你現在調查出來的他如果沒有含之前的那個59處他跳開了對不對他避開了柏定你說你已經要跟市政府要去調查嘛對不對信不信"},{"start":577.557,"end":603.823,"text":"我們是配合市政府去做調查配合嘛對啊所以環境部立即會同這個基隆市政府針對這59個地方你趕快去調查沒有調查完成之前你這個會議本來就是無效的嘛這個會議環評大會這個結論要先報告不是無效喔不是無效大家都有經歷了法令的過程來完成這件事情兩個法令本來就是不一樣委員你不能強人所難我們是依法行政啊"},{"start":604.707,"end":609.249,"text":"所以我們就配合市政府他必須要去完成這個土壤污染區的公告啊OK所以我提了第三點嘛如果後來你們去檢測的結果確實有污染這樣環民大會的結論還可以用嗎"},{"start":627.233,"end":656.833,"text":"柏定回答等一下我要叫他留下記錄柏定摸著良心你從明天來我原不能不能這樣說這個是我們要按照這個程序在進行這個程序我的程序就是他如果汙染汙染汙染如果就進進到我們的汙染整治的關鍵他在106年曾經發現過107 08年在我們部內的列管已經整治完成了那現在他現在正在如果有新的事項我們去查了之後他也是照這個程序在開在在進行啊"},{"start":657.934,"end":677.829,"text":"你這個是頭跟腳不是顛倒了嗎你發現它有汙染你就盡可能不要在那個環境這不應該過你處理完你才能夠走下一步啊結果不是你現在是怎麼樣一定要護航要先過霸王硬上弓說一定要過嗎教練在跟我講一定要過這是兩個不一樣的程序我也說得很清楚喔"},{"start":678.67,"end":687.442,"text":"那我剛剛一直有個疑問嘛台電為什麼要做這個為什麼環評團體跟評團要來抗議這個我剛才還給你看土壤法的這個整個整個檢測的過程那個報告委員好我是台電啦我這邊先說明一下"},{"start":697.066,"end":719.835,"text":"協和電廠並不是市政府宣布的土地污染場址所以在環評法裡面它是兩個不同法源如果今天是環評法裡面它特別有說明如果你是宣布為土地污染場址的時候就不能辦環評"},{"start":721.294,"end":733.779,"text":"他並沒有先後秩序台電是自主負責那你為什麼要自行負責要去做這個調查你有沒有沒問題你為什麼要調查沒有規定你為什麼要做這個調查委員你先聽我把事情說完"},{"start":738.285,"end":752.919,"text":"台電就是我們每一個開花場子都必須做這個都必須把土地整治完成合格之後才會進行開花現在世界發現污染了不用是吧跳過去就好了是吧"},{"start":753.459,"end":774.316,"text":"那個包委員剛剛我剛剛有澄清基隆市政府如果有宣布協和電廠當時在環評之前是土屋有宣布的話那這個環評可能就有問題可是這個並不是宣布可是這個要市政府全責對不起這個是我們自主性做的這個跟市政府"},{"start":781.141,"end":810.761,"text":"市政府 你的調查裡面有沒有汙染有沒有這59個汙染有沒有報告委員 有沒有自主性檢查裡面有這一個汙染但是這個並不是市政府自己去調查是我們為了開花案場而去做的自主性調查所以市政府如果照你們的調查報告就是會有嘛是不是你們自己調查調查東西到底有沒有這才重要啊"},{"start":811.121,"end":815.705,"text":"委員這個要進到環評的時候在範疇界定裡面他要求我們測試是1點這委員應該很清楚啊你為什麼不測那50你們還建議說跳開這59點這個是抽樣欸抽樣不是說我們固定欸沒有說跳過去啦那個59點並不是在範疇界定裡面所以你那個"},{"start":840.956,"end":848.523,"text":"沒有59點裡面的話你怎麼抽得出來說是有你自己找到了59點跳過去你們的報告裡面還建議說你到時候要檢測的時候要跳過那59點啊欸對不起委員並不是像你想像中不是像你想像中59點不是在好好委員委員來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來大家看一下"},{"start":868.3,"end":875.488,"text":"初步判斷非擴散污染因已知污染位置 正式調查可以疑點這不是你們來電嗎我是覺得我們應該是去看環評裡面的規定說我們"},{"start":885.059,"end":894.184,"text":"換籌界定的那一點區域在哪裡可是這個59點是另外一個問題可是到底有沒有汙染第二個你有沒有檢測到59個汙染點第三個你為什麼故意跳進去我已經讓你們兩道解說清楚了好不好來來 抱歉抱歉 輸血不輸血不輸血 你們這樣不行啦你們兩個一個解釋也不是很清楚一個認定上也有模糊的空間是不是休息五分鐘那你們就說清楚 不用不用"},{"start":910.875,"end":916.54,"text":"後面有委員在等啊我當主席我最起碼已經給你們有充分的時間了這個委員會我剛才當主席你們要把事情討論清楚我絕對會支持但是你們兩兆在平行啊"},{"start":933.675,"end":957.069,"text":"完全沒有教會嘛我讓你們休息完等一下你要講再講嘛好不好來休息三分鐘等一下我們私下溝通一下休息一方面溝通一下一方面我就要求照這三點來做啦趕快環境部會同那個基隆市政府基本要弄清楚你如果真的檢測出來你沒有的問題我現在問題就是清清楚楚你自己白紙黑字都有問題嘛你這環評怎麼會有效呢"},{"start":973.812,"end":984.338,"text":"我當然珍惜啊可是你要依法行政啊你不能這樣給我污衊啊這個我們有一定的程序啊污染完就要整治完成啊"},{"start":989.251,"end":991.633,"text":"你們避開了五十九點再去找一個沒有的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1006,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時4分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：來，請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：今天啓楷要問啓明，四接環評是不是一個假環評、真作弊？部長，你知道後來吹哨者提供資料，多氯聯苯是致癌的，你知道這個很毒，超標了7.3倍，而且檢測過程竟然造假，土壤污染值在調查裡面竟然只有查了一處，你知道這件事情嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道、我知道。"],["張委員啓楷：你知道？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["張委員啓楷：這個環評還有效嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：當然有效啊！這是兩個。報告委員，其實土污跟環評是兩個不一樣的法規程序。"],["張委員啓楷：如果沒有問題，那為什麼要避開呢？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有避開，委員……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有避開？來，我們先看一下法令，先看一下法令規定，土壤污染評估調查及檢測作業管理辦法第五條規定的第三條所定土壤污染評估值及檢測資料，如果照這個資料不得低於以下這個規定，至少一個污染的土地要檢測，如果是原來協和電廠這個面積，要245處，如果包括那個填海的地方要303處，結果你自己去做了一個59點的自行檢測。部長，你要回答那個問題，我要提醒你一個很重要的，不管是不是台電給你假的資料，還是錯誤的訊息，如果沒有問題，你們為什麼要避開？那你之前為什麼要做？你都還知道台積電去高雄，那個河地的整治就是污染土地，現在還在整治啊！污染的土地沒有整治完，怎麼可以上面就開始蓋呢？怎麼環評就過了呢？是不是這樣？"],["彭部長啓明：整治完才能開發。"],["張委員啓楷：你現在是環境部長，彭部長，你現在是環境部長，這個不要變成你從民間來留下來的一個污點。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，不是的……"],["張委員啓楷：很重要！第一個，我先跟你講，我先講一個重要概念，污染一個土地，河地整治沒有完成，環評就可以過嗎？這是第一個點。第二個，我就直接問了，台電如果認為沒問題，或者環境部這邊沒問題，你們當初為什麼要做？更嚴重的，你們為什麼要避開那59個有污染的地方？就是需要做嘛，對不對？是不是這樣？","現在更讓我生氣了！那天2月26號環評，我跟陳昭姿、黃珊珊，我們三個立法委員，因為我們接到吹哨者的資料啊，我們是送進去環境部，我知道你那天迴避嘛，對不對？可是環境部跟所有的環評委員事先應該已經接到這個資料囉，我給你看這個資料，來，你看看！我們看上一張圖，這個土壤要怎麼調查？它一共有分A、B、C、D，你看看有幾個區？A區是污染很嚴重的廢水處理廠的部分，B區後來調查的污染比較沒那麼嚴重，可是D區就是發電機組這個區域，非常嚴重！下一張我給你看一下，這是台電委託，自己做出來的喔！結果你把這個東西蓋牌了。A區就是剛剛講的廢水處理廠，多氯聯苯管制的標準只有0.09，這是致癌的，這麼嚴重的一個污染物超標多少？0.659！超標了7.3倍。下面這個是D區，很多都超標了。","部長，當吹哨者把這個東西給了立法委員，立法委員叫環評委員要先看，結果那一天你至少要做一個動作嘛，把這個資料消化完之後，是不是好好去清查一下？當天基隆市的市長也在場，我的要求完全要合法、要合乎規定。謝國樑那天也講要儘快會同環境部去做這個檢測，做完檢測以後那天環評才有效啊！結果你霸王硬上弓，這樣的環評大會怎麼會是有效的？","部長，我明確做三個要求，我今天早上還問了，會議紀錄到現在還沒有公布嘛，對不對？第一個，三天內完整公布歷次的環評審議，還有2月26號的會議紀錄，特別是土壤污染的評估報告，可以嗎？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：這個是基隆市要宣告所謂的土壤污染管制區，是基隆市政府要去查的，那我們已經交代環管署到那個地方要配合基隆市環保局去查到底有沒有。委員你提出所有的吹哨者，歡迎到揭弊者保護，我一定馬上查、馬上處理，這段的過程我們會馬上處理。從環評的程序裡面說得很清楚，環評的程序跟土壤污染管制是兩個不一樣的法規程序。像南部你說的，例如很多要新蓋的，它污染了要開發，它的規劃環評還是可以照走，但是它如果要開發，一定要整治完了之後才會開發。現在根本就不是土壤管制的區域，它過去106年曾經發現過、107到108年協和電廠已經改善了，現在不是，未來如果公告是的話，那它未來就進入到那個程序。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你嚴重誤會了。吹哨者保護拿來的不是舊的東西，是最近台電自行委託去調查的，如果沒有需要為什麼要調查、為什麼要移開、要避開？而且是新的資料，你絕對不要被誤導了，不是舊的資料，是新的，這是第一個點。第二個更重要，當場環評大會要開，有新的事證出現，你是不是應該停下來？那天謝國樑已經講了，他儘快會同環境部去調查完。你說調查完真的沒有問題、是誤會你，那環評就過了啊！現在是顛倒，先過了環評，然後再去調查，調查出來有問題怎麼辦？所以這個根本就是無效的，霸王硬上弓又違反程序，是違法的一個環評，是不是這樣？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這是兩個不一樣的法規程序，無法……"],["張委員啓楷：不一樣的法規，可是一定要做啊！要不然的話……"],["彭部長啓明：它如果要開發，要把土壤整治完成才可以開發。"],["張委員啓楷：對，我知道你的意思。可是第一個，如果有污染，你就要先要求它去做這個事，對不對？你當場沒有做，你還通過環評；第二個，部長，你在講的，你要先確認啊！要不然怎麼後來有整治的問題。所以做三件事情，第一個，部長，3天內公布歷次環評的會議，特別是土地污染的評估報告，你有問題嗎？"],["徐司長淑芷：土地污染的報告不是環評會議的資料，是他們做土污調查的……"],["張委員啓楷：大聲一點，麥克風給他。"],["徐司長淑芷：這邊要跟委員說明一下，土壤污染評估調查的報告，是他們依土污法去做的調查，並不是依我們環評法去調查，所以我們環評只有規定範疇界定要去調查一個點位。所以我們環評的資料，當然會議紀錄相關的OK，可是土污調查是另外……"],["張委員啓楷：所以59個地方有污染，你特別去挑了一個，你為什麼要避開？這個台語叫什麼，狸貓換太子嗎？偷天換日，是不是？你怎麼跟人民可以交代，現在我非常明確的要求，第一個，就是因為有問題，所以你才要調查啊！部長，這是一個。所以我要求你把這個調查報告給全民看，你有狸貓換太子嗎？現在吹哨者來講的就是59個地方明明確確都是有污染，你後來做的在G區啊，對不對？"],["徐司長淑芷：這邊先跟委員報告，他們的……"],["張委員啓楷：你看看A跟D都有污染，結果你在G區，把這個公布給全民來做公評，更重要的……"],["徐司長淑芷：他們土壤污染的調查報告是他們自行調查報告，並不是送到我們審查的報告，所以這個可能要請台電自己說明，而且那個報告也不是我們……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你們是環境部耶！你要保護安全的、保護環境的。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們是依法行政，土污跟環評這是本來兩件事情，而且他們一定要整治完之後才能做開發，這是本來的規定，過去以往就是這個樣子。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你發現有污染是不是應該停下來，把它整治好或確認完之後才能夠開下一步，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：那我們請台電來報告。"],["張委員啓楷：等一下。所以我做了兩個很重要的要求，第一個，你把資料公布；第二個，部長，這個要求很明確，依法跟依程序，土壤評估報告裡面，如果現在調查出來了，它如果沒有含之前的59處，它跳開了、它避開了，對不對？部長，你說你已經要跟市政府去調查，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是配合市政府去做調查。"],["張委員啓楷：配合，對啊！所以環境部立即會同基隆市政府針對這59個地方，你趕快去調查，沒有調查完成之前，你這個會議本來就是無效的嘛！環評大會這個結論要先……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，不是無效喔！不是無效。它都有經歷法令的過程來完成這件事情，兩個法令本來就是不一樣，委員，你不能強人所難，我們是依法行政。"],["張委員啓楷：依法行政，你是環境部部長，有發現環境跟土壤嚴重污染，你不用管喔！"],["彭部長啓明：當然要管。"],["張委員啓楷：要管？"],["彭部長啓明：所以我們就配合市政府，它必須要去完成土壤污染區的公告啊！"],["張委員啓楷：OK，所以我提了第三點，如果後來你們去檢測的結果確實有污染，這個環評大會的結論還可以用嗎？請部長回答，我要讓他留下紀錄，部長，摸著良心，你從民間來……"],["彭部長啓明：委員不能這樣說，這個是我們要按照這個程序在進行。"],["張委員啓楷：這個程序就是……"],["彭部長啓明：它如果污染就進到我們污染整治的規定，它在106年曾經發現過、107到108年在我們部內列管已經整治完成了，如果現在有新的事證，我們去查了之後，它也是照這個程序在進行。"],["張委員啓楷：這個頭跟腳不是顛倒了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你……"],["張委員啓楷：發現它有污染，你就盡可能不要……"],["彭部長啓明：這個不是……這是兩件事情。"],["張委員啓楷：環評不應該過，你處理完才能夠走下一步。結果不是，你現在是怎麼樣，一定要護航、要先過，霸王硬上弓一定要過嗎？照你這麼說，你一定要過。"],["彭部長啓明：這是兩個不一樣的程序，委員，我說得很清楚喔！"],["張委員啓楷：我剛剛一直有個疑問，台電為什麼要做這個？為什麼環評團體跟民團要來抗議這個？我剛剛還給你看土壤法的整個檢測過程。"],["郭副總經理天合：報告委員，我是台電，我這邊先說明一下，協和電廠並不是市政府宣布的土地污染場址，所以在環評法裡面，它是兩個不同法源，今天是環評法裡面特別有說明，如果是宣布為土地污染場址的時候就不能辦環評，它並沒有先後次序，台電是自主負責自行……"],["張委員啓楷：那你為什麼要自行負責去做這個調查？如果沒問題，你為什麼要去調查？沒有規定，你為什麼要做這個調查？"],["郭副總經理天合：委員，你讓我把話……"],["張委員啓楷：你吃飽撐著……"],["郭副總經理天合：委員，你先聽我把事情說完。台電就是……我們每一個開發場址都必須做這個，都必須把土地整治完成，合格之後才會進行開發……"],["張委員啓楷：那現在發現污染，就不用了是嗎？跳過去就好了嗎？"],["郭副總經理天合：報告委員，我剛剛有澄清，基隆市政府如果有宣布協和電廠當時在環評之前是土污，有宣布的話，那這個環評可能就有問題，可是這個並不是啊！"],["張委員啓楷：宣布，可是……"],["郭副總經理天合：這個是市政府權責……"],["張委員啓楷：這是你們台電拿出的報告……"],["郭副總經理天合：對不起，這個是我們自主性做的，這個跟市政府……"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！你的調查裡面有沒有污染？有沒有這59個污染，有沒有？"],["郭副總經理天合：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：有沒有？有沒有？"],["郭副總經理天合：自主性檢查裡面有這一個污染，但是這個並不是市政府自己去調查，是我們為了開發案場而去做的自主性調查，現在委員你卻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"start":48.945,"end":76.076,"text":"所以是不是有必要在我們的這個什麼頭就是那個敞篷頭裡面要過水加一個過濾的有沒有用啊報告委員那個是濕度讓我們空氣中更小的微粒長大變成PM2.5所以基本上那種我們家裡面多數家裡的空氣品質是好的但是因為濕度的關係讓PM2.5增多但是那個其實對我們身體是沒有危害的"},{"start":76.704,"end":81.866,"text":"所以我們家不家那個什麼沒有關係沒有用因為我們家裡面本來就比較少所以委員剛剛你提到的說為什麼婦女因為我們家裡面台灣的習慣蒸煮炒炸例如說那樣的生活習慣在家裡面廚房的PM2.5其實也很高的所以其實我們家裡面很多的生活也會造成女性相對的比例會高一點所以你會鼓勵我們的這個婦女同胞少自己煮多點外賣"},{"start":104.516,"end":114.117,"text":"不是我們的作息的方式例如說煮菜的方式可以轉變因為我們的如果是雜煎的回來看一下世界最大的排碳國是哪幾個國家"},{"start":115.789,"end":143.662,"text":"呃中國第一名中國第二名美國第三名呃應該是印度印度這三個國而且這兩年印度跟中國大陸啊增加的很多那現在川普退出巴黎協定了請問什麼時候生效呃大概還要一年多的時間一年因為過去就是說一講要退出是三年了哦那大概這一次大概一年所以我們可以大概大家大概差不多"},{"start":144.602,"end":163.542,"text":"今年底或是到明年初他會退出是不是對但是他的退出因為這個UFCCC他本來就是一個自我的承諾自己的要求那他們過去呢這個拜登總統也提出了美國的新的NDC他要減60%等於是跟2005年相比所以目前未來美國到底怎麼走我們也還在觀察"},{"start":163.902,"end":175.347,"text":"可是現在一來的話大家都看得到啊這個巴黎協定本來說二兩千兩千一百年現在是二零二五兩千一百年全球plus1.5度以內"},{"start":179.031,"end":201.256,"text":"這個大概普攻了吧氣候融資中斷了對貧窮國家拜登政府啊對貧窮國家提供一百一十億美金的融資也會中斷這些數據都對吧第一個是1.5度應該是失守了1.5是失守了但可能會到兩度到三度兩度到三度暗熱死 說暗熱"},{"start":203.136,"end":222.734,"text":"當然對目前依照各個國家的減碳的路徑還是沒有辦法到鎖到一點呼吸那川普的退出協定會不會使這個雪上加霜更plus上去會不會呃應該會讓這個速度哦等於是說減碳的速度慢下來然後第二個是說我們的極端事件會持續的在增加"},{"start":223.795,"end":252.038,"text":"這個會不會讓某種程度讓電動汽車的市場會稍微差一點以美國現在就是這個樣子現在那個不一樣了Tesla那個是因為很多人現在歐盟其實是恨美國的關稅的問題啊而且恨那個Elon Musk那個是另外一件事所以連帶影響他的銷售量這個影響是可能更大而不是這個原因我認為跟這個原因的影響度沒那麼大"},{"start":252.458,"end":259.593,"text":"報告委員因為這個其實川普也改變了任何的對於這種環保車輛各種的補助這個也是原因之一啦"},{"start":260.262,"end":283.929,"text":"所以就更加沒有希望1.5度已經破功了確定破功因為這是全球加起來例如說以中國來說的話他是2060年才要宣布淨零那個印度是2070年那我們什麼時候可以淨零我們現在是20我們當然是原的目標當然是2050年可以要希望達到淨零嘛那我們現在未來定到2035年希望可以減最多38加減2"},{"start":287.878,"end":312.152,"text":"李遠哲前院長李遠哲院長說2050年絕對不可能淨零啦他這樣講欸你要不要挑戰一下包委員其實這個就是一個理想啦如果我們沒有一個淨零的目標我們現在就不用做了嘛所以就這樣我們一個理想一個目標所以你也同意李遠哲講到2050年達不到淨零啦對台灣來講非常辛苦因為這要別的工具請問美國2050年不能達到淨零"},{"start":314.033,"end":332.669,"text":"美國有機會喔有機會台灣沒有機會台灣因為我們的這個地小人稠我們沒有那麼多負擔的這個量所以的確算是給你你又不是這樣回答你就說只要我彭某人當部長就有機會不會不會我包圍我2050我都退休了我不會做那麼久"},{"start":333.069,"end":342.297,"text":"不一定做到那一年啦你前面規劃好後面就照著你路徑走啊不一定一定做在那個時候就是我這幾年認真規劃盤摸摸在規劃這個2050就有機會所以報告委員所以我規劃了203538加減2嘛38"},{"start":353.906,"end":356.488,"text":"那我是2035喔2035等於是如果努力的話可以將近4成的減碳量未來10年可以減4成那我們的碳費300塊什麼時候開始課"},{"start":369.718,"end":390.851,"text":"今年1月1號就開始課要不要因為川普這樣改變了不要不會確定喔確定確定不會改變喔對確定你知不知道探權教育現在目前情況怎麼樣探權教育目前只有自願性的減量多少你知道嗎非常的我們目前台灣的非常的還因為他只能自願性的什麼叫可能啦"},{"start":392.492,"end":405.064,"text":"碳權交易他不是真正說我要買賣不是的是說國外有些的碳權拿來這裡類似股票籌碼一樣的炒作你知道嗎給你看碳權交易多少10萬台幣新台幣啊上一次6000過來4000"},{"start":412.912,"end":430.931,"text":"那個交易所的時候 董事長來找我 我特別關心這一塊啊我特別關心這一塊 貪錢交易 貪錢交易因為這個又跟我們那個出口到歐盟去的西邊又有關係這個非常重要的一個 全世界都有這個貪錢交易所 結果台灣我說 貪錢交易啊 這怎麼是貪錢交易四千六千"},{"start":435.356,"end":439.218,"text":"只有四千 你看2025年的1月7號一筆四千 一筆六千2024年12月一筆十萬那等於沒有了騙人的啊我們有探險教育喔喔喔喔 了不起喔這年排放喔都是欺騙社會"},{"start":453.032,"end":482.376,"text":"包委員不能這樣說因為它是自願性的市場因為它是自願性撿到的市場我例如說我自己要宣告碳中和我可以跟他買所以這個的誘因不夠所以我們現在正在規劃總量管制的排放交易我記得啊你的前面好幾屆前面前面的長官啊那時候叫環保署有個署長叫小毛你知道嗎知道知道嗎沈世宏叫小毛我跟他談了幾次啊他念之再之就是怎麼樣建立我們的碳權交易所"},{"start":483.715,"end":491.966,"text":"了不起啊 這裡面啊而且是法人才能夠交易喔 對不對對 這個是要重大的排放 其中有好幾筆就是省市總區交易的"},{"start":493.55,"end":521.356,"text":"沈世宏啊你知道他念茲在茲當過環保署長老實說很了不起啊他一直覺得我們的為什麼貪權交易建立不起來呢因為公法人可以去他就成立個什麼協會聯盟然後就去買賣我們的貪權交易在市場裡面不要讓這個太難看要等於是ZERO啊難看得要死沒有人要推他是志願性的市場他這樣少應該是理所當然的"},{"start":522.837,"end":532.968,"text":"我問你 你能不能推一推嗎我們現在正在規劃總量管制的排放交易希望從慢慢的從碳費過渡到總量管制的排放交易我不是朋友演會啦 但是我能不能夠拜託你給我們一份簡單的報告說怎麼來讓碳權交易這個市場火落 可以嗎"},{"start":542.879,"end":554.082,"text":"可以 我們現在正在規劃希望明年下半年可以推出來明年下半年可以做這個事當然這涉及到很多法令的問題法令我們來修啊法令 探險教育何等重要然後你看從沈世宏2008年馬英九執政的時候那時候他當環保署長到現在我每次找他 他就跟我講這個事情每次找他就跟我講這個事情"},{"start":568.745,"end":589.999,"text":"舉全世界各國的例子我覺得很棒啊我全力支持啊我那時候也是在讀這個探權教育的書啊那時候的讀書會跟省署長就在讀這個東西十幾年前就在讀這個書探權教育探權教育探權教育我在財務會老是盯這個事情看的東西心很酸啊因為這個教育規範誇是要這麼快拍拚一下謝謝委員支持 謝謝謝謝 謝謝賴委員 謝謝部長"},{"start":598.285,"end":598.353,"text":"谢谢大家"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":911,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時54分）謝謝主席以及各位先進，有請環境部彭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長好。部長知道我們臺灣的癌王是哪一個癌嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：肺癌。"],["賴委員士葆：肺癌跟你有關係喔！環境影響很大，而且女生比男生多，女生不抽菸怎麼會這樣子？你剛才提到一個事情，我突然有一個小問題先請教你，熱水一煮開的時候PM2.5很高……"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["賴委員士葆：所以是不是有必要在我們的蓮蓬頭過水時加一個過濾的，加個過濾有沒有用？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個是溼度讓我們空氣中更小的微粒長大變成PM2.5，基本上，多數家裡的空氣品質是好的，但是因為溼度的關係讓PM2.5增多，可是那個其實對我們身體是沒有危害的。"],["賴委員士葆：OK，所以跟我們加不加filter沒有關係？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有用，因為家裡面本來就比較少，所以委員剛剛你提到為什麼是婦女，因為臺灣的習慣是蒸、煮、炒、炸，例如說那樣的生活習慣，在家裡面廚房的PM2.5其實也是很高的，所以家裡很多的活動也會造成女性相對的比例會高一點。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你會鼓勵我們的婦女同胞少自己煮，多點外賣？"],["彭部長啓明：不是，是作息的方式，例如煮菜的方式可以轉變，因為如果是炸或煎的就很容易……"],["賴委員士葆：好，回來看一下，世界最大的排碳國是哪幾個國家？"],["彭部長啓明：中國。"],["賴委員士葆：第1名中國，第2名？"],["彭部長啓明：美國。"],["賴委員士葆：第3名？"],["彭部長啓明：應該是印度。"],["賴委員士葆：對，這三個國家，而且這一、兩年印度跟中國大陸增加的很多。現在川普退出巴黎協定，請問什麼時候生效？"],["彭部長啓明：大概還要一年多的時間。"],["賴委員士葆：因為過去他講退出時，是3年生效，而這一次大概1年生效，所以大家expect差不多今年底或是明年初它會退出，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對，但是它的退出，因為這個UNFCCC本來就是一個自我的承諾、自己的要求，而他們過去拜登總統也提出了美國新的NDC要減60%，跟2005年相比，所以目前未來美國到底怎麼走，我們也還在觀察。"],["賴委員士葆：可是現在大家都看得到，巴黎協定本來說2100年，現在是2025年……在2100年，全球plus在1.5℃以內，這個大概破功了吧？氣候融資中斷了，拜登政府對貧窮國家提供111億美金的融資也會中斷，這些數據都對吧？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個，1.5℃應該是失守了，可能會到2℃到3℃。"],["賴委員士葆：2℃到3℃？那不就熱死？更熱了！"],["彭部長啓明：當然，對，目前依照各個國家減碳的路徑還是沒有辦法到鎖到1.5℃。"],["賴委員士葆：川普退出協定會不會使這個雪上加霜，更plus上去？"],["彭部長啓明：應該會讓減碳的速度慢下來。第二個，極端事件會持續的再增加。"],["賴委員士葆：這個在某種程度上會不會讓電動汽車的市場稍微差一點？"],["彭部長啓明：美國現在就是這個樣子。"],["賴委員士葆：現在那個不一樣了，Tesla是因為很多人……現在歐盟其實是恨美國的喔！因為關稅的問題，恨Elon Musk，那個是另外一件事，所以連帶影響它的銷售量，這個影響可能更大，而不是這個原因，我認為跟這個原因的影響度沒那麼大。"],["彭部長啓明：不過，報告委員，其實川普也改變了任何對於環保車輛各種的補助，這個也是原因之一啦！"],["賴委員士葆：所以就更加沒有希望了，1.5℃已經破功了，確定破功？"],["彭部長啓明：因為這是全球加起來，例如以中國來說，它是2060年才要宣布淨零；印度是2070年。"],["賴委員士葆：那我們什麼時候可以淨零？"],["彭部長啓明：當然我們遠的目標是2050年希望達到淨零嘛，我們現在訂到2035年，希望可以減碳38%加減2%。"],["賴委員士葆：李遠哲前院長說2050年絕對不可能淨零啦，他這樣講耶，你要不要挑戰一下？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個就是一個理想，如果沒有一個淨零的目標，我們現在就不用做了嘛，所以有一個理想、一個目標……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你也同意李遠哲講的，對臺灣來講，2050年達不到淨零？"],["彭部長啓明：非常辛苦，因為這要別的工具，譬如說……"],["賴委員士葆：請問美國2050年能不能達到淨零？"],["彭部長啓明：美國有機會喔！"],["賴委員士葆：有機會？"],["彭部長啓明：對，有機會。"],["賴委員士葆：臺灣沒有機會？"],["彭部長啓明：臺灣因為地小人稠，我們沒有那麼多負碳的量，所以的確做起來非常辛苦。"],["賴委員士葆：我作球給你，你就不要這樣回答，你就是要說，只要我彭某人當部長，就有機會！"],["彭部長啓明：不會、不會，報告委員，我2050早就退休了，我不會做那麼久，但是……"],["賴委員士葆：不一定做到那一年，你前面規劃好，後面就照著你的路徑走啊！不一定要做到那個時候，就是這幾年認真規劃，彭某某在規劃，2050就有機會！"],["彭部長啓明：所以，報告委員，我規劃了2035，38%加減2%嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：38？差很多欸！"],["彭部長啓明：我是2035喔，等於是如果努力的話，可以將近四成的減碳量，未來10年可以減四成。"],["賴委員士葆：那我們的碳費300塊什麼時候開始課？"],["彭部長啓明：今年1月1號就開始課了，明年開始收。"],["賴委員士葆：要不要因為川普這樣改變了？不要？"],["彭部長啓明：不會！"],["賴委員士葆：不會？"],["彭部長啓明：不會。"],["賴委員士葆：確定喔？"],["彭部長啓明：確定。"],["賴委員士葆：確定喔？確定不會改變喔？"],["彭部長啓明：對，確定。"],["賴委員士葆：你知不知道碳權交易現在目前情況怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：碳權交易目前只有自願性的減量。"],["賴委員士葆：多少，你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：非常的……我們目前臺灣非常……因為它只能自願性的，所以它沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：很可憐啦！碳權交易不是真正說要買賣，不是的！是國外有些碳權拿來這裡類似股票籌碼一樣在炒作，你知道嗎？給你看，碳權交易多少？10萬新臺幣啊！上一次6,000，過來4,000，交易所董事長來找我，我特別關心這一塊，我特別關心碳權交易，因為這個又跟出口到歐盟區的CBAM有關係，這個非常重要的，全世界都有碳權交易所，結果臺灣是欺騙社會啊！這怎麼是碳權交易？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員……"],["賴委員士葆：4,000、6,000！欸，只有4,000，你看，2025年的1月7號一筆4,000、一筆6,000，2024年12月一筆10萬，那等於沒有啊！騙人的啊！我們有碳權交易喔！了不起喔！淨零排放喔！都是欺騙社會！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，不能這樣說。"],["賴委員士葆：就是這樣說。"],["彭部長啓明：因為它是自願性的市場，因為它是自願性減量的市場，例如說我自己要宣告碳中和，我可以跟它買，所以這個的誘因不夠……"],["賴委員士葆：怎麼樣可以增加誘因？"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在正在規劃總量管制的排放交易。"],["賴委員士葆：我記得你前面好幾屆的長官，那時候叫環保署，有個署長叫小毛，你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道。"],["賴委員士葆：知道嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：沈世宏署長。"],["賴委員士葆：沈世宏叫小毛。我跟他談了幾次，他念茲在茲，就是怎麼樣建立我們的碳權交易所，了不起啊！而且是法人才能夠交易喔！對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：對，這個是要重大的排放。"],["賴委員士葆：其中有好幾筆就是沈世宏去交易的，沈世宏啊，你知道他念茲在茲，他當過環保署長，老實說很了不起啊！他一直覺得為什麼我們的碳權交易建立不起來呢？因為公法人可以去，他就成立一個什麼協會、聯盟，然後就在市場裡面去買賣我們的碳權交易，不要讓這個太難看，這等於是zero啊！難看得要死！沒有人要推！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，它是自願性的市場，它這樣少應該是理所當然的！未來……"],["賴委員士葆：你能不能推？我問你嘛，你能不能推一推嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：我們現在正在規劃總量管制的排放交易，希望慢慢地從碳費過渡到總量管制的交易。"],["賴委員士葆：我不是本委員會的，但是我能不能夠拜託你給我們一份簡單的報告，怎麼讓碳權交易這個市場活絡，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：可以，我們現在正在規劃，希望明年下半年可以推出來。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候可以出來？"],["彭部長啓明：明年下半年可以做這個事，當然這涉及到很多法令的問題，我們現在正在……"],["賴委員士葆：法令我們來修啊！法令？碳權交易何等重要，你看沈世宏在10年前，2008年馬英九執政的時候，那時候他當環保署長，到現在，我每次找他，他就跟我講這個事情，每次找他，他就跟我講這個事情，舉全世界各國的例子，我覺得很棒啊！我全力支持啊！結果……"],["彭部長啓明：我那時候也是在讀碳權交易的書，那時候的讀書會跟沈署長就在讀這個東西，十幾年前就在讀這個。"],["賴委員士葆：你比較懂！碳權交易、碳權交易、碳權交易，我在財委會老是盯這個事情，看了心很酸啊！因為這個交易幾萬塊是要做什麼？努力一下！"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員支持，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝賴委員，謝謝部長。","我們接下來請張啓楷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}},{"id":"159266","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159266","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb168e39414d3eddb7a4d8ee7d728f0553b6aeebfddff728efe63f43b907692b255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"12:03:26 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我要講的是主委 這整部AIF的進本法的架構條文我剛剛說過了 您跟同仁都很努力嘛是由國科會主導制定的法規的公告 蒐集各方的意見也是國科會在做現在突然間換手速發布這要什麼銜接啊那國科會你要扮演什麼角色 主委提一下"},{"start":311.564,"end":334.42,"text":"國科會協助制定這部AI基本法後續我們還是會持續來協助事務發布你會協助什麼?你現在孕育要生出來小孩要拱手送人家然後看他長大的過程當中就遠遠的望著是這樣嗎?我們還是會投入AI的研發然後來支持未來事務發布主政的時候他的需求"},{"start":335.704,"end":364.134,"text":"主委 我想其實你聽起來就是有很多的無奈啦因為你這個人也藏不太住表情啦有非常多無奈 對嗎是嗎不會啦 不會 沒有我看得出來啦 但也很難說啦因為這是大家努力的成果嘛所以我想啊 這個目前國科會你公布這個AI基本法的草案條文方向是鼓勵AI創新研究的一個方向可是呢 我們知道現在所謂的要改成這個速發部"},{"start":364.614,"end":387.755,"text":"是在说不管是这个风险啦 治安啦等等所以去改的我听起来我们是要考虑没有错但是完全把这个国科会的角色通通弱化掉我觉得也不太对因为我们知道这个草案的方向鼓励采取创新研究可是如果我们把它变成了是这个国家安全或者涉及高风险为一个这个理由改成这个速发部"},{"start":388.195,"end":405.865,"text":"那将来可能就会变成走这个管制AI的角度来研修这是完全不同的方向这当然我们可以讨论可是过去我们其实在做的过程当中就不是这样所以我想我们现在AI其实发展是非常的快速可能很短的时间之内就会出现很多重大的变化或者一些突破"},{"start":406.545,"end":431.486,"text":"那如果說我們沒有去加速趕快去把這個銀頭趕上而且我們又沒有法律的規範那我們的草案到現在呢還是這個delays我覺得我們要什麼超美趕中啦等等啦我覺得這個看起來有一點點好像遙不可及所以我希望啊國科會啊這個尤其是主委啊您帶領大家努力了這麼久是不是可以再努力一下應該跟行政院反映一下趕快把第一個送來本院來審查然後希望還是國科會來做"},{"start":435.189,"end":439.976,"text":"還是說現在主委覺得杯酒是冰泉了你完全沒有智慧的空間你不要哽咽了嘛"},{"start":448.125,"end":468.073,"text":"我們會確定這個AI基本法還是會保留創新研究的空間不會受到限制那行任這個會期絕對會受到限制我知道啦就是自己孕育的小孩我們還是希望他健康快樂長大但是我可能沒辦法撫養他就這個意思嘛但是主委我這樣講啦我對您跟團隊深具信心啦"},{"start":468.433,"end":486.731,"text":"我們希望不管是本席還是我們召委所提的AI基本法草案希望能夠還是以國科會為主管機關我們延續的下去來做其實這是會比較好的所以我還是希望你勇敢把它說出來接下來我想還有一題要跟主委在討論主委你日前出席大專院校校長會議的時候有指出說近年來"},{"start":489.594,"end":502.286,"text":"国科会稳定的挹注了科研投资全国科研经费已经达到1595亿2020年起更独立编练基础这个科研的预算五年来从282亿元增加到408亿"},{"start":506.67,"end":523.441,"text":"增幅达到45%所以你认为让大学没有后顾之忧但更举出来日本出现了很多诺贝尔奖的得主所以你认为台湾的教育有问题到现在没有培养出诺贝尔奖的得主真是丢脸"},{"start":536.51,"end":561.645,"text":"大學丟臉應該是我們整體的這個高等教育體系負責前瞻的這個學術研究讓這個學術研究的成果可以造福人類社會這整個體系所以是高等教育體系丟臉同樣是就是整個高等教育體系丟臉你要試下這個註解你確定嗎"},{"start":568.022,"end":590.78,"text":"應該講有權責來改變這個體系的人主委會不會覺得這個話說得過重我不是認為過重我是要提醒大家所以你還是覺得高等教育很丟臉如果按照你這樣講的話高等教育很寬除了大學以外教育部以外我們的學者都是高等教育的一環當天演講我講了兩部分一部分就是我們在學術研究"},{"start":592.068,"end":607.126,"text":"負責學術研究就是所謂的研究型大學一定要積極的去思考這個事情另外一部分是我們廣泛的教學型大學包含技術體系教學型大學我有提到我會怎麼協助他就是委員的建議"},{"start":609.348,"end":628.148,"text":"主委我有了解您那天所說的我相信你這個是有點恨鐵不成鋼的心情在裡面但您過去其實自己也是清華大學的副校長也是成功大學副校長也擔任過南台科大的校長其實你也在高校裡面所以這個丟臉是不是您也變成負責任嗎我也丟臉了"},{"start":631.171,"end":650.502,"text":"對 所以你可能自己也是從教育體系出來的好 我們除了點出問題覺得這麼丟臉之外請問一下你有沒有跟我們的教育部的部長討論一下到底為什麼這麼丟臉你有提出過問題然後也提出一些解決方式給他談過了嗎當天鄭部長也在場我們共同都會努力那所以你的說法他都贊成我不知道他內心怎麼想啊但是他"},{"start":658.418,"end":678.895,"text":"你覺得你在現場這一番話他內心要怎麼想沒有啦我想這樣子啦我想這樣子啦那個隨時再給我一點時間喔這番話出來之後台大校長陳文章其實有提出他的看法對於民進黨的批評指教他說產生諾貝爾獎得主的因素非常複雜除了一要長期耕耘二"},{"start":679.335,"end":684.419,"text":"我們也要跟這個國際學術組織這個要能夠跟上他們的腳步要能夠常常有一個互動第三個國家支持也很重要所以他說我們其實應該要來支持本土學者能夠在國際型的研討會上得獎啦或者增加這個歐美的一些相關院士的人數啦那提升一些這個台灣國際的影響力啦所以我想你看看喔"},{"start":701.713,"end":708.398,"text":"站在這個第一線這個校長的立場其實我不能說把球又丟回去給你因為這不是要丟來丟去問你是怎麼共同的解決所以我看起來你看你說你給了很多科研經費不是給了錢就好了如果給了錢我們就可以得到諾貝爾獎得主哪有那麼容易做的事情對不對所以我們給了這個預算補助經費我們有沒有去看看怎麼樣去設定他的KPI那怎麼樣去看他的績效又怎麼樣去輔導"},{"start":728.274,"end":739.203,"text":"沒有做好的地方我覺得這也是國科會要負的一點責任那最後我想再來提一下也就是說國科會把預算提高經費撒下去以後的努力我們來看國會最新的統計2022年各國執行國家研發經費的佔比我們來看台灣只佔了6.5%那您剛剛說的這個有很多諾貝爾獎得主的日本11.5%美國9.9%南韓9.1%中國大陸"},{"start":756.676,"end":762.017,"text":"這個7.8%瑞士28.2%荷蘭27.3%所以主委知道嗎荷蘭跟瑞士瑞士有25位的諾貝爾獎得主荷蘭有22位所以我今天要提說我們覺得我們好像就是給了很多的教育經費但是呢我們很多的科研經費也下去了但是呢 主委"},{"start":776.161,"end":791.25,"text":"我想希望您會後不要說那一天發表完以後就像那天我們質詢完以後因為忘記了這就這麼重要點出問題然後提出建議然後跟這個部長溝通那想出辦法來到底怎麼去解決好不好你下次會不會再忘記應該不會不能應該不會一定要絕對不會好嗎絕對不會謝謝謝謝萬美林委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":672,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（12時3分）謝謝召委，我們有請主委。"],["主席：請主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：萬委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：主委好。主委，還記不記得去年本席有根據人工智慧科技基金會一份2023台灣產業AI化大調查的數據，有跟您討論過關於企業，還有政府AI化的程度，你還記得嗎？講完就忘了！來，我提醒您一下，當時其實你也認為臺灣距離賴總統口中所說的AI之島還有相當的距離在，現在過了一年，你認為這個距離有縮短嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：還沒有一年，但是……"],["萬委員美玲：你還沒有想起來？我就問您啦，現在我們看起來，過去的你忘記了，我希望你能夠去回想一下，其實每一次我們的質詢，主委可能都要把它記在心裡面，因為每一次都很重要，不能質詢完以後就把它丟掉了，好嗎？要複習一下。今天在這裡我不苛責您，但是我們看到根據人工智慧科技基金會最新的、今年度的調查報告顯示，在2024台灣企業AI準備度的指數，我國企業在數據力、創造力、技術力、治理力跟運算力五大面向的平均分數僅僅有54.08分，其中技術力51.06分，這是低於平均的；治理力更只有41.61分。","我們來看更細緻的數據，在臺灣的企業當中，我們看到有7.9%的企業具備資料蒐集的能力，但是不知道要如何應用，38.6%的企業是各部門自行去蒐集資料來使用，可是缺乏統一的策略管理，有35.6%的公司是AI仍然處於初步的探索階段，甚至有將近9%完全沒有使用AI。接下來，我們看到42.6%的企業只有很少數的員工具備AI的知識，但是26.7%的員工是完全不懂AI的，這個數據很可怕，大概是七成多。有32.7%的企業完全沒有設置AI專責的部門。最後，我們看到高達一半以上，52.5%的企業沒有機制可以確保AI模型符合國際規範。這些數據，主委，我希望會後您要看，不要又忘記了。這個都顯示我們AI策略與風險管理上有很多嚴重的不足，面對AI技術的快速發展，政府有沒有，或者您這裡有沒有措施可以協助企業提升風險管理跟相關的治理能力？有沒有？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，我先講剛剛委員提到的……"],["萬委員美玲：我先問一下，這些數據你都知道嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不是很清楚，但是……"],["萬委員美玲：不是很清楚？要了解喔！"],["吳主任委員誠文：特別針對這些數字啦，但是整體的狀況，就像委員講的，臺灣在AI的應用上面，其實還有待……"],["萬委員美玲：好，我想這幾個數字，我希望會後主委能夠去了解，在了解完以後，你最好能夠提一個簡單的報告來告訴我們，這些數據你大概覺得這有什麼樣的警示或提醒，以及準備怎麼做。我覺得這個很重要，因為我如果沒有要求你要給我們這樣一個報告，恐怕你下次又忘記了，我覺得這個提醒很重要。","再來，這些數據其實凸顯的是我國企業的AI應用普及率還是低的，我相信這一點我們都同意，但是這也來自於政府相關的AI法規到目前為止是沒有完備的，所以這也會影響到整個臺灣AI的研發跟企業對於AI的應用進程，這您同意嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：同意。"],["萬委員美玲：好，您同意。所以沒有完備的AI相關法規跟配套，會影響AI的發展，我們都同意。主委，其實您在上任之後也承諾會儘速提出相關的AI草案，去年的7月，草案正式的預告，10月22號草案也送到行政院，在這過程當中，我看到您跟同仁也都非常的努力，不過5個月過去了，為什麼還沒有看到草案送到本院來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：行政院已經在上上個禮拜審完了，現在在做最後的文字修正，應該很快會在行政院院會上報告，之後就會送到大院來。"],["萬委員美玲：主委，我想你這樣支支吾吾的，你很難詳細交代，我幫你講好了啦！據本席了解，行政院在2月26號院長會議以及2月27號主委的會議已經決議要把這個AI基本法的主政機關，由國科會改為數發部，請問這個決策你接受、你支持嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們在行政院會一起討論，我當然是支持啊。"],["萬委員美玲：你支持？為什麼？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這是在行政院的會議啊。"],["萬委員美玲：我懂了，因為在行政院做成這樣的決議，那你也沒有不支持的空間啦。好，我要講的是，主委，這整部AI基本法的架構條文，我剛剛說過了，您跟同仁都很努力，是由國科會主導、制定的，法規的公告、蒐集各方的意見，也是國科會在做，現在突然間要換手數發部，這要怎麼銜接啊？國科會又要扮演什麼角色？主委，提一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會協助制定這一部AI基本法，後續我們還是會持續來協助數發部……"],["萬委員美玲：你會協助什麼？自己現在孕育要生出來的小孩要拱手送人家，然後在他長大的過程當中，就遠遠的望著，是這樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們還是會投入AI的研發，然後來支持未來數發部主政的時候它的需求。"],["萬委員美玲：主委，其實聽起來你就是有很多的無奈，因為你這個人也藏不太住表情啦。"],["吳主任委員誠文：有奈、有奈。"],["萬委員美玲：你有非常多無奈，對嗎？是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不會啦、不會啦，沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：我看得出來，但也很難說啦，因為這是大家努力的成果嘛！目前國科會所公布的AI基本法草案條文，在方向上是鼓勵AI創新研究的一個方向，可是呢，我們知道現在要改成數發部來主政，是出於風險、資安等等考量所以去改的。我們是要考慮沒有錯，但是完全把國科會的角色通通弱化掉，我覺得也不太對，因為我們知道這個草案的方向，鼓勵採取創新研究，可是如果我們是將國家安全或者涉及高風險作為一個理由而改成數發部，將來可能就會變成走管制AI的這個角度來研修，這是完全不同的方向。這個當然我們可以討論，可是過去我們在做的過程當中其實就不是這樣嘛。我想現在AI的發展非常快速，可能在很短的時間內就會出現很多重大的變化或者一些突破，如果我們沒有趕快加速去迎頭趕上，而且我們又沒有法律的規範，我們的草案到現在還是在delay，我們要什麼超美趕中等等啦，我覺得這個看起來有一點點好像遙不可及喔！所以我希望國科會，尤其是主委，您帶領大家努力了這麼久，是不是可以再努力一下，應該跟行政院反映一下，第一個，趕快將院版送來本院審查，然後希望還是由國科會來做喔！還是現在主委覺得杯酒釋兵權了，你完全沒有置喙的空間？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有，我們會，對不起，我們會確定……"],["萬委員美玲：你不要哽咽了嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們會確定這個AI基本法還是會保留創新研究的空間不會受到限制，那行政院這個會期絕對會送。"],["萬委員美玲：我知道啦，就是自己孕育的小孩，我們還是希望他健康快樂地長大，但我可能沒辦法撫養他，就這個意思嘛。但是主委，我對您跟團隊深具信心，不管是本席還是我們召委所提的AI基本法草案，我們希望還是能夠以國科會為主管機關，延續地做下去其實是會比較好的，所以我還是希望你勇敢地把它說出來。","接下來我還有一題要再跟主委討論。主委，你日前出席大專院校校長會議的時候有指出，近年來國科會穩定的挹注了科研投資，全國科研經費已經達到1,595億，2020年起更獨立編列基礎科研的預算，五年來從282億元增加到408億，增幅達到45%，所以你認為讓大學沒有後顧之憂。你更舉出，日本出現了很多諾貝爾獎得主，所以你認為臺灣的教育有問題，到現在沒有培養出諾貝爾獎得主真是丟臉。我想這個話其實說得蠻重的，我回去以後其實這段時間研究了很久，今天我想直接問主委，到底這個丟臉是政府丟臉，還是國科會丟臉，還是我們高等教育丟臉，還是大學丟臉？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該是我們整體高等教育體系負責前瞻的學術研究，讓這個學術研究的成果可以造福人類社會，這整個體系需要檢討……"],["萬委員美玲：所以是高等教育體系丟臉？"],["吳主任委員誠文：同樣，是，但是……"],["萬委員美玲：就是整個高等教育體系丟臉，你是要下這個註解，你確定嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該講有權責來改變這個體系的人要負責任。"],["萬委員美玲：主委會不會覺得這個話說得過重？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不認為過重，我是要提醒大家……"],["萬委員美玲：所以你還是覺得高等教育很丟臉，如果按照你這樣講的話，高等教育很寬喔，除了大學以外，教育部以外，我們的學者都是高等教育的一環喔。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我當天的演講講了兩部分，一部分就是我們的學術研究，負責學術研究的就是所謂研究型大學，一定要積極的去思考這個事情；另外一部分是我們廣泛的教學型大學，包含技職體系。而教學型大學，我也有提到國科會……"],["萬委員美玲：好，主委我理解，其實……"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會怎麼協助他，就是委員的建議，我增加……"],["萬委員美玲：來，主委，我有了解你那天所說的，我相信你是有點恨鐵不成鋼的心情在裡面，但您自己過去其實也是清華大學的副校長，也是成功大學的副校長，也擔任過南臺科大的校長，其實你也在高校裡面，所以這個丟臉是不是您也變成要負一部分的責任，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我也丟臉啊，我也丟臉啊！"],["萬委員美玲：對，所以你可能是從自己也是教育體系出來的立場發言。好，我們除了點出問題，覺得這麼丟臉之外，請問一下，您有沒有跟我們教育部的部長討論一下，到底為什麼這麼丟臉？你有提出過問題，然後也提出一些解決的方式給他，談過了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當天鄭部長也在場，我們都會共同努力。"],["萬委員美玲：所以您的說法他都贊成？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我不知道他內心怎麼想，但是我們在……"],["萬委員美玲：你覺得你在現場說出這一番話，他內心要怎麼想？沒有啦！我想這樣子啦……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我相信他會贊成。"],["萬委員美玲：主席，再給我一點時間。這一番話出來之後，臺大校長陳文章其實有提出看法，對於您的批評指教，他說產生諾貝爾獎得主的因素非常複雜，除了一、要長期耕耘；二、我們也要能夠跟上國際學術組織的腳步，要能夠常常互動；第三個，國家支持也很重要，所以他說我們應該要支持本土學者能夠在國際型的研討會上得獎，或者增加歐美一些相關院士的人數，提升一些臺灣在國際的影響力。你看看，這是站在第一線的校長的立場，我不能說把球又丟回去給你，因為這不是要丟來丟去的問題，是要怎麼共同來解決。所以我看起來，你說你給了很多科研經費，但不是給了錢就好了，如果給了錢，我們就可以得到諾貝爾獎得主，哪有那麼容易做的事情，對不對？所以我們給了預算、補助經費，我們有沒有去思考怎麼樣去設定它的KPI，怎麼樣去看它的績效，要怎麼樣去輔導沒有做好的地方，我覺得這也是國科會要負的一點責任。","最後，我想再來提一下國科會把預算提高，經費撒下去以後的努力，我們來看國科會最新的統計，2022年各國執行國家研發經費的占比，臺灣只占了6.5%；您剛剛說的有很多諾貝爾獎得主的日本11.5%；美國9.9%；南韓9.1%；中國大陸7.8%；瑞士28.2%；荷蘭27.3%，主委知道嗎？荷蘭跟瑞士，瑞士有25位諾貝爾獎得主，荷蘭有22位。所以我今天要提說，我們覺得我們好像給了很多教育經費，很多科研經費也下去了，但是主委，我希望您會後，不要說那一天發表完以後，就像那天我們質詢完你就忘記了，這個這麼重要，你點出問題，然後要提出建議跟部長溝通，要想出辦法來看到底怎麼去解決，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：你下次會不會再忘記？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該不會。"],["萬委員美玲：不能說「應該不會」喔，一定要說「絕對不會」，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，絕對不會。"],["萬委員美玲：好。謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢。主委請回座，謝謝。","接下來我們繼續進行質詢，請何欣純委員質詢，何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","我們接著繼續質詢，請翁曉玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}},{"id":"159265","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159265","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fba829f38d305be2aafc70f51a359b58cfb6aeebfddff728efb8c40d3938d270f35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:54:57 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主席有請工程會陳主委好 陳主委委員長主委好"},{"start":15.939,"end":31.629,"text":"主委本席看到工程會有主要任務其中有加速公共建設的執行還有提升國家競爭力所以國家的發展關鍵是往往取決於公共工程建設的規劃還有執行那我們快速的回顧到1974年到1979年顧總統"},{"start":35.735,"end":54.652,"text":"金國先生他當時推動了十大建設那同時也奠定了台灣經濟奇蹟的基石那從交通能源到重工業然後全方位的提升產業的競爭力那在1979年的時候成立新竹的科學園區也是台灣半導體"},{"start":56.874,"end":74.489,"text":"產業崛起的關鍵是台灣站上全球科技供應鏈的重要位置那由此可見公共工程它不僅影響當下的經濟發展長遠來看更決定了國家未來的競爭力還有人民的生活品質那主委關於這一點您認同嗎"},{"start":76.23,"end":95.699,"text":"完全認同委員的高見就是公共建設它除了經濟發展的基礎之外也是火車頭因為公共建設來帶動相關的發展繁榮或者是就業等等這是非常重要的我們過去幾年前瞻計畫或者是重大計畫"},{"start":97.02,"end":114.372,"text":"過去幾年是公共建設投入很多包括剛才你所提的金國先生早期的十大建設如果沒有那些十大建設帶動整個基礎的話一步一步奠基起來台灣不會有今天所以公共建設是非常重要的主委您提到過去幾年我們來看頭影片"},{"start":115.563,"end":142.859,"text":"那從投影片這三個表格的數據我們可以看到過去六年來公共工程的流費標比例都維持在70%以上甚至有個別的工程它的流費標高達14次那此外呢 那它的流費標金額越高那它的 不好意思 採購金額越高它的流費標比例也越高主委您能說明為什麼這個流費標的比例過高"},{"start":143.999,"end":171.894,"text":"我想大概有幾個原因第一個就是當然就缺工缺料或者是物價然後如果同時間公共建設很多那當然這個能夠做的工人也好或是營造公司也好他就會去選擇所以就會預算成本就會增加您不好意思我這邊先中斷您的那個"},{"start":172.734,"end":194.949,"text":"好那您也有提到說因為缺工缺料那其中缺料的問題特別嚴重這也是全球經濟變化跟全球經濟它的環境變化有密切的關係那我們看到目前全球運輸成本持續上升那加上美國川普政府他的關稅政策那未來的物價恐上漲20%那主委您有掌握到嗎"},{"start":196.455,"end":222.543,"text":"跟委員報告因為物價的這個小組我並不是召集行政院層級的在召集這個相關的物價好那沒關係那本席要進就是我們最近有幾個公共工程成本大幅提升的案例都顯示他是缺工然後還有缺料然後以及行政流程的拖延對公共建設經費的影響甚至那我們先來看到桃園鐵路地下化"},{"start":223.743,"end":235.412,"text":"2020年9月的時候行政院核定經費是1048億那受到營建市長缺工缺料的因素影響他必須來修正計畫那國發會他審議後經費增加了769.08億那總經費高達1817億那原本他2030年完工那現在確定了會延至2033年他的進度也落後了他原本"},{"start":249.222,"end":278.2,"text":"預定的進度是42%那現在實際的進度它只有32%那我們再看到另外一個案例捷運三陰線延伸到八德2019年11月的時候行政院它核定可行性評估當時的計劃經費是116.41億元到了2024年6月11日的時候國發會核定增加43.59億總經費增加160億那目前已送院核定還在核定中"},{"start":278.88,"end":295.849,"text":"那我們再來看到花東花東快速道路2016年當時的可行性評估他估計興建的費用是819.6億那2025年最新可行性評他的可行性報告他總經費上升了3610"},{"start":298.75,"end":322.363,"text":"市議員暴增了兩千億那有這些案例我們可以發現漫長的行政流程還有工刑拖延造成進度落後那成本也不斷的上升主委那我們要怎麼因應跟委員報告以台灣鐵路地下化而言事實上他是有經過幾次的修正包括原來是高架"},{"start":323.123,"end":338.569,"text":"然後後來改成地下化地下化過程呢有些佔還有調整就是有修正這個修正計畫有一點時間所以呢自然而然供期延長那物價就上漲所以一直飆升"},{"start":339.91,"end":360.801,"text":"那這一部分呢我們希望在中央機關能夠做的情況之下就整個縮短審議的流程尤其是原來就已經有計畫了主委您身為工程會主委很清楚嗎在公共建設在中規過後那還有需要還有經過設計的階段然後再來才能進入正式發包動工"},{"start":362.162,"end":386.462,"text":"那如果這些程序他一直延宕的話一定會影響工期 也會造成成本上升那本期要跟您討論的是捷運的三陰線我們可以看到2015年捷運三陰線他2015年6月2號中規核定在2016年7月21日正式開工他的行政流程的歷史是415天那如今的三陰線"},{"start":387.583,"end":416.417,"text":"今年年底會完工那明明營運然而山陰縣延伸至八德他從2024年9月20日已經報請行政院核定本席也多次向行政院卓榮泰院長還有我們的陳士凱部長反映希望行政院能夠來進促核定已經178天了卻沒有任何進展也毫無音訊本席要請問主委您認為這樣的行政效率合理嗎"},{"start":420.904,"end":432.447,"text":"這個三陰縣是不是在國安會還是已經國安會審定了如果三陰縣的話我們工程會會寫審啦,我們沒有審過"},{"start":435.523,"end":463.159,"text":"我們還沒有審到了不過現在我們的確有一些困難這個困難我舉一個例子比方說我們去年對有些建設或地方的已經補助已經核定了困難是需要大家一起共同來去克服的是什麼樣的困難就是比方說已經核定了核定地方那地方有可能就編列預算準備要花但是臨時現在整個現在是卡在行政院"},{"start":464.019,"end":472.634,"text":"就是沒錢啦就是沒錢就是未來的錢到底能夠動之多少已經那麼多的 主要像您可能沒有掌握到目前不是因為經費的問題"},{"start":475.427,"end":494.21,"text":"有核定的也會受影響 不只這個山陰縣有很多重大建設 還沒核定目前的進度是還沒核定好 我們會同意來 如果送到公司來您是工程會的主委 同時也是行政院的政務委員本身希望您也可以以政務委員的身份來向院長"},{"start":495.431,"end":513.622,"text":"來反映加速三陰線的核定進度那巴德我們當地的居民也巴德居民桃園的市民也非常期待捷運同時趕上當地的交通問題那這也是賴清德總統桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的一環那主委您願意"},{"start":514.802,"end":542.154,"text":"來向行政院院長反映嗎我們會主動來瞭解相關審議單位包括交通部包括國安會我們願意能夠全力來協助讓他進度快一點讓他進度快一點OK好謝謝主委主委最後剛剛有很多委員提到金指甲有提到刪除媒體費的部分那本席這邊也要再提是因為我們不希望經費都只是集中在特定的媒體希望主委您能夠瞭解"},{"start":543.817,"end":569.978,"text":"我們那個220萬只辦一件事情就是金子獎的紀錄跟頒獎沒有其他媒體宣傳因為剛剛委員提到的是因為媒體宣傳費的關係就是我們因為編在媒體宣傳隊事實上我們那筆錢220萬只做一件事情就是金子獎去查核嘛會紀錄那他得獎之後這個紀錄這個工程怎麼樣或者是一些職人就是做這個那些表揚"},{"start":572.701,"end":580.427,"text":"坐在這些揭露並沒有做其他OK好謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝邱若驊委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":707,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時55分）謝謝主席，有請工程會陳主委。"],["主席：好，陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["邱委員若華：主委好。主委，本席看到工程會的主要任務，其中有加速公共建設執行還有提升國家競爭力，所以國家的發展關鍵往往取決於公共工程建設的規劃及執行。我們快速的回顧，1974年到1979年，故總統經國先生當時推動了十大建設，同時也奠定了臺灣經濟奇蹟的基石，從交通、能源到重工業，全方位提升產業的競爭力，在1979年成立新竹科學園區，也是臺灣半導體產業崛起的關鍵，使臺灣站上全球科技供應鏈的重要位置。由此可見，公共工程不僅影響當下的經濟發展，長遠來看，更決定了國家未來的競爭力及人民的生活品質。主委，關於這點，您認同嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：完全認同委員的高見，公共建設除了是經濟發展的基礎之外，也是火車頭，因為公共建設能帶動相關的發展、繁榮或者是就業等等，這是非常重要的，像前瞻計畫或者一些重大計畫，在過去幾年公共建設投入很多，包括剛才你所提的經國先生早期的十大建設，如果沒有那些十大建設帶動整個基礎一步一步奠基起來，臺灣不會有今天，所以公共建設是非常重要的。"],["邱委員若華：是，主委，您提到過去幾年，我們來看投影片，從投影片這3個表格的數據我們可以看到，過去6年來公共工程的流廢標比率都維持在70%以上，甚至有個別工程的流廢標高達14次；此外，採購金額越高，其流廢標比率也越高。主委，您能說明為什麼流廢標的比率過高嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我想大概有幾個原因，第一個當然就是缺工缺料或者是物價，如果同時間公共建設很多，當然能夠做的工人也好，或是營造公司也好，他就會去選擇，所以預算成本就會增加……"],["邱委員若華：主委，不好意思，我這邊先中斷您，您也有提到因為缺工缺料，其中缺料的問題特別嚴重，這也是全球經濟變化跟全球經濟環境變化有密切關係，我們看到目前全球運輸成本持續上升，加上美國川普政府的關稅政策，未來的物價恐上漲20%，主委，您有掌握到嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，因為物價小組並不是由我召集，已經由行政院層級的在召集相關的物價……"],["邱委員若華：好，沒關係，本席要說最近有幾個公共工程成本大幅提升的案例，都顯示它是缺工及缺料，以及行政流程的拖延對公共建設經費的影響甚巨。我們先來看桃園鐵路地下化，2020年9月的時候，行政院核定經費是1,048億，受到營建市場缺工缺料的因素影響，它必須修正計畫，在國發會審議後，經費增加了769.08億，總經費高達1,817億，原本在2030年完工，現在確定會延至2033年，而進度也落後了，原本預定的進度是42%，現在實際的進度只有32%。我們再看到另外一個案例，捷運三鶯線延伸到八德，2019年11月行政院核定可行性評估，當時的計畫經費是116.41億元，到了2024年6月11日的時候，國發會核定增加43.59億，總經費增加到160億，目前已送院核定，還在核定中。我們再來看到花東快速道路，2016年當時的可行性評估估計興建費用是819.6億，而2025年最新的可行性報告，總經費上升到3,614億元，暴增了2,000億。由這些案例我們可以發現，漫長的行政流程及工期拖延造成進度落後，成本也不斷的上升。主委，我們要怎麼因應？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，以桃園鐵路地下化而言，事實上它是有經過幾次的修正，包括原來是高架，後來改成地下化，在地下化的過程中，有些站還有調整，就是有修正，這個修正計畫有花了一點時間，所以自然而然工期延長，又因物價上漲，所以經費就一直飆升。這個部分，我們希望在中央機關能夠做的情況之下，整個來縮短審議的流程，尤其是原來就已經有計畫的。"],["邱委員若華：主委，您身為工程會的主委，很清楚嘛，公共建設在綜規過後，還要經過設計階段，然後才能進入正式發包動工，如果這些程序一直延宕的話，一定會影響工期，也會造成成本上升。本席要跟您討論的是捷運三鶯線，我們可以看到2015年6月2號行政院核定捷運三鶯線綜規報告，在2016年7月21號正式開工，它的行政流程歷時415天，如今三鶯線在今年年底會完工，明年營運。然而三鶯線延伸至八德的部分，在2024年9月20號已經報請行政院核定，本席也多次向行政院卓榮泰院長及陳世凱部長反映，希望行政院能夠儘速核定，已經178天了，卻沒有任何進展，也毫無音訊。本席要請問主委，您認為這樣的行政效率合理嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：三鶯線是在國發會還是國發會已經審定了？如果是三鶯線的話，我們工程委員會協審，剛剛同仁告知我，這個我們還沒有審到，不過現在我們的確有一些困難，我舉一個例子，比方說我們去年對有些建設或地方的補助已經核定了……"],["邱委員若華：困難是需要大家一起共同來克服的，是什麼樣的困難？"],["陳主任委員金德：比方說已經核定地方，地方有可能就編列預算準備要發包，但是臨時整個總體的錢……"],["邱委員若華：現在是卡在行政院喔？"],["陳主任委員金德：就是沒錢啊！"],["邱委員若華：就是沒錢？"],["陳主任委員金德：就是未來的錢到底能夠動支多少，已經那麼多的地方都要……"],["邱委員若華：主委，我想您可能沒有掌握到，目前不是因為經費的問題。"],["陳主任委員金德：有核定的也會受影響喔，不只這個三鶯線，有很多重大建設……"],["邱委員若華：還沒核定！"],["陳主任委員金德：還沒有核定？"],["邱委員若華：目前的進度是還沒核定。"],["陳主任委員金德：好，我們會同意來……如果送到工程會來……"],["邱委員若華：因為您是工程會的主委，同時也是行政院的政務委員，本席希望您也可以以政務委員的身分向院長反映，加速三鶯線延伸至八德的核定進度，我們八德當地的居民及桃園的市民也非常期待捷運通車，同時改善當地的交通問題，這也是賴清德總統桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的一環。主委，您願意來向行政院院長反映嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會主動來了解相關審議單位，包括交通部，包括國發會，我們願意全力來協助，讓它的進度快一點。"],["邱委員若華：讓它進度快一點？OK，謝謝主委。","主委，剛剛有很多委員提到金質獎，有提到刪除媒體費的部分，本席這邊也要再提，是因為我們不希望經費都只是集中在特定的媒體，希望主委您能夠了解。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們那個220萬只辦一件事情，就是金質獎紀錄跟頒獎，沒有其他媒體宣傳。"],["邱委員若華：OK，因為剛剛有委員提到是因為媒體宣傳費的關係。"],["陳主任委員金德：就是因為編在媒體宣傳費，但事實上我們那筆220萬只做一件事情，就是金質獎查核會紀錄，他得獎之後，這個紀錄、這個工程怎麼樣，或者是一些職人，例如做鋼筋綁鐵工作等等的那些表揚，就是在做這些的揭露，並沒有做其他的。"],["邱委員若華：OK，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員。","現在請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},{"id":"159264","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159264","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb7899b215d9316d9bfc70f51a359b58cfb6aeebfddff728ef33c073854302364d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"11:45:21 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我們請主委好 陳主委委員早主委好剛聽了很多 也有很多人問了金職獎所以 主委你現在的現在的狀況就是金職獎是以目前的預算煽動的狀況是確定沒辦法辦嗎"},{"start":34.008,"end":60.188,"text":"金職獎受影響有主要有兩筆預算一個是每一宣費用220萬歷年來工程會的預算每一宣就是這220萬這個幾乎沒有改變而且只做一件事情而已就是金職獎辦理的時候去考核整個公共工程會做記錄開設所以這220萬完全是針對金職獎對 沒有做其他的那包括包括我們會上架嘛一些媒體辦這個"},{"start":63.44,"end":77.679,"text":"表揚的時候會做一些宣傳那這220萬全刪了就表示說我們沒有辦法再去比方說拖播委託什麼媒體去播放這個金職獎內容這一部分是確定的"},{"start":78.3,"end":101.04,"text":"那其他就是業務會凍結一半我們不知道什麼時候能夠解凍因為我們預計3月底之前要發包然後呢7月1號要接受報名那這個7月1號接受報名接下來就長達半年啦所有的公共工程會有很多委員去出評去看然後呢要負評所以很多茶盒很多業務會要使用時間很長"},{"start":102.521,"end":118.529,"text":"所以如果這個預算不確定的話那就造成要報名的這些廠商他不知道要不要報名所以我們才是很困擾的原因之一因為如果不辦那些廠商有的已經準備很久了所以我們會有壓力但是辦這個錢在哪裡是沒辦法簡單講"},{"start":123.591,"end":144.326,"text":"這個辦不辦不能用說大院解凍不解凍來作為依據啦一定是有預算我們才能夠去辦這個金職獎否則的話風險很高實在有困難唉 其實我看剛剛主委有曾經生氣過坦白講我也很不爽啦"},{"start":147.239,"end":165.772,"text":"其實金字獎我大概了解一下你們總共大概要1060萬嘛那剛剛主委提到220萬是媒體宣傳費嘛所以藍白統三的全部的議會各個部會都刪掉30%到70%那你們的刪掉50%算是中間啦那這個其實跟無目標殺人一樣的意思啦我沒有針對哪個"},{"start":175.612,"end":191.9,"text":"部會 我就所有的部會全部都刪掉30到70然後藍白的講法就是說我沒有刪掉你這一筆金職費用金職獎530萬你們的預算那其他的相關的人會碰到的他就全部都亂刪 刪到的也不知道那還講說什麼金職獎他們沒刪那講什麼租屋補推他們沒刪講什麼那個幼教幼兒福利什麼他們沒刪"},{"start":206.345,"end":213.89,"text":"嘴巴都講梅山 把業務費全部所有的各部位都刪掉30%到70%這叫做梅山 都讓你沒做事就等於說一個人說我都沒有跟你砍斷手腳啊但是我把你手腳全部都綁著啊讓你沒做事坦白講 其實我本來諮詢 要好好的諮詢你金職強怎麼辦"},{"start":235.52,"end":240.945,"text":"結果聽到你們這樣回答其實我就一肚子氣辦了25年的金職獎今天如果因為藍白亂三你們的業務費造成這個沒有辦法辦所有全國的工程界情何以堪我呼籲全國的工程界特別的注意這個金職獎的辦理"},{"start":264.654,"end":277.206,"text":"這個是要鼓勵做得好的你們還有兩筆 另外一筆也被動了另外一筆其實就是那個剛剛富奎委員問到的你們公共工程的監督控管這個部分你們也是只能做一半"},{"start":285.431,"end":308.533,"text":"這個所謂的納管將近7700億嘛所以是分配到各縣市離島都有那加上有時候風災訊息來了要去勘災等等包括進度啊等等所以如果說動一半的話勢必另外一半呢就要等大院解凍之後才能去看但是有時候比方說風災地震"},{"start":310.812,"end":339.199,"text":"這個沒有辦法等到解凍才能去啊所以這部分就也會造成困擾其實我真的也不知道怎麼問你啦因為這個都是攬擺亂山的問你你也很難回答啦但是我今天去講實在我會表達很大的氣氛啦所有的手腳用繩子通通綁起來所以你們可以把繩子解開啊什麼時候解開不知道啊"},{"start":341.673,"end":364.583,"text":"我可能會希望說跟我們黨團再跟國民黨黨團甚至民眾黨團你們乾脆一次院會動的全部都解凍掉啦不然我哪個單位一個單位一個單位要去拜託你一個單位一個單位要去問你一個單位一個單位要去通過再通過院會的程序這沒完沒了而且所有的單位手腳全部都被綁住了怎麼做事啊"},{"start":369.127,"end":382.994,"text":"我們南部那個行政服務中心行政院南府中心他們樓下電梯貼了一個什麼你知道嗎請大家走樓梯啦因為那個水電費那些都被刪掉了嘛請大家背樓梯啦這個東西表面上就是說每一個單位人們擺亂三的預算表面上說我沒有刪你租屋補貼"},{"start":398.075,"end":408.685,"text":"現在我們的很多租屋補貼年輕人現在都領不到啊為什麼領不到就是因為業務費啊那你全面刪掉30到70就是混蛋對不起啦 我不是跟你生氣啦我是真的很生氣但是我是針對這個業務費你們被刪了50%吧"},{"start":421.667,"end":441.441,"text":"被動了對被動了50%嘛你們是1774.7萬然後200你看喔這個220萬你們的名稱叫什麼媒體你們的名稱叫媒體宣傳會用一年來都這樣變對南白很聰明看到媒體宣傳會用你們都是1450嘛就全三嘛白癡看到媒體的就全三"},{"start":449.028,"end":452.351,"text":"不知道這一個你們後面有括號說這是做金石獎的宣傳嗎我希望說我們會這個是立法院的亂象我們盡快來解決啦那也希望說你們比較辛苦的就現有的資源齁那還是要做準備啦那這個"},{"start":469.706,"end":492.92,"text":"凍結的部分我們我會拜託看有沒有機會就提早趕快解凍讓你們把你們的綁住的手腳的繩子有沒有辦法趕快解開啦那不是只有你們單位不能做全國很多很多的單位都不能做事啦就是因為手腳都被綁住啦都是因為業會30到78全部把所有的全國各部位的手腳都綁住"},{"start":494.761,"end":514.494,"text":"所以我是建議就是說那個主委您還是金職長我認為還是要辦啦您先做準備啦那我們會看看有沒有辦法盡快來處理掉這一些業務費的問題看有沒有辦法讓金職長能夠繼續辦我們希望大院如果說能夠協助工程會"},{"start":515.675,"end":537.45,"text":"能夠在4月底之前4月底之前如果能夠完成解凍那我們的競速我們本來3月底就要發包了嘛那5月來發包然後很明確的7月接受報名那這樣我們就還有時間那如果說4月底之前沒有辦法完成解凍那我想我們金職獎就很難辦下去"},{"start":538.936,"end":563.108,"text":"謝謝 所以拜託主委還是先預作準備啦那這裡也有民眾黨我們招委是民眾黨也有國民黨的立委我們希望說這個所有的綁住全國行政的手腳的業務費有沒有機會一次我們來把它做一個大的解決不然這個各單位根本都是手腳被綁住沒辦法做事一起努力啦 辛苦主委謝謝好 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有請我們陳主委好 陳主委"},{"start":12.806,"end":32.205,"text":"委員長 主委早 主委辛苦我認識的主委 這個過去不管從中央到地方的歷練 擔任過很多的職務那甚至在這個政治的歷練上面 是我很敬重的一個前輩今天看到你 在想起來 很不甘的 很認的 不會生氣"},{"start":34.745,"end":58.115,"text":"主委我想從剛剛我們看到前面幾位委員在質詢過程裡面我想又要馬而飛又要馬而不吃草那是不可能的事情尤其我們公共工程委員會兼顧的這個全國包含公共建設許多方面的包含採購預算的一些監督很多的一些重大工程的一個督促我們扮演很重要的一個角色"},{"start":58.875,"end":84.637,"text":"現在我看這預算連連5億多包含目前凍結跟刪除大概有高達21%的部分主委前幾天我們看到我們在野黨的召委在運會的時候有點名了我們好幾個部會主委有用點到沒有那一天你是說副總召那天沒有因為我們工程會是預算是很少大概就"},{"start":85.819,"end":97.387,"text":"零頭而已啦 五億但是我認為工程會的預算很重要就是這21%如果凍結又不解凍之後這個澳幣會慷慨主委你認為澳幣會慷慨 會不會受到很大的影響因為這五億 其中業務費是兩億 凍結一半"},{"start":105.692,"end":124.546,"text":"那業務會是雖然我們並沒有資本支出啦我們沒有我們自己不發包工程但是這個業務會是再來督導或者是查核或者是管控所有的公共建設他的發包他的品質他的進度或協調爭議禮約等等要做這些事情"},{"start":125.547,"end":149.613,"text":"相對來講2億3億一半剩下一億嘛就是我們有一半的工作沒辦法做假設我今天我們的相關處要去看100座橋樑那我的業務已經凍結一半我只能去看50座橋樑啦就是一半那這樣影響所及我們今年我們今年納管的公共建設7700億嘛就1億以上的才納管其他各機關至於納管"},{"start":151.294,"end":177.794,"text":"7700億的公共建設如果凍結我們一半的業務費意思就是說我們只能先管控3300億的公共建設其他3300億的預算是沒有經費去管控的啦主委這就是本席擔心的問題啦剛剛你在業務簡報裡面有特別提到除了我們過去我們關切這個公共建設的進度之外那我想很重要就是我們賴總統提出均衡台灣這個政策"},{"start":178.675,"end":196.59,"text":"我想這個工程會也扮演很重要的一個角色還有我們現在兩名七月份颱風季節來臨的時候我們萬一有一些復健工程我們現在要去勘栽要去做一個審查的時候我看連年出差會就突然迷迷茫茫的這後面是怎麼出差怎麼看這個問題"},{"start":199.976,"end":226.53,"text":"凱米颱風各縣市都受到影響零四零三花蓮地震零一二一台南地震那這些跟這個災後重建復建有關的工程都必須要工程會來統合所以一定要到縣地去看然後其他機關主計或相關主管機關去看然後再來協助地方政府說這個大概可以補助多少地方政府把這些案送到工程會我們還去審"},{"start":227.69,"end":248.363,"text":"這個地方補助多少這個地方補助多少假設呢這個預算確實已經凍結沒辦法解凍那我們迅起來了今年的重大風災或其他的這個要重建的時候會影響到我們出勤的人數跟這個能力啦所以這裡面的確會受影響"},{"start":250.448,"end":277.835,"text":"陳友主委剛剛講的金職獎 大家都在問金職獎不能做一半 不能辦一半那你勘栽能夠只有勘上半年 下半年不勘嗎如果說是兩億的預算凍結一半 剩下一億那其他的 其他剛才有尾算能不能調當然是可以調 就其他的經常性的我這邊稍微調一下 這邊挪一下盡量使用到一半但是金職獎這部分沒辦法調"},{"start":278.795,"end":307.415,"text":"金職獎沒辦法說我只使用多少以後同意再來辦如果我把其他的業務調到金職獎來那看起來是可以問題是在預算還沒有能不能解凍不知道的情況之下會互相排擠嘛排擠到其他的業務所以這個也是金職獎我們這個考慮在沒有獲得答應支持預算解凍的情況之下有可能今年會評估停辦的原因"},{"start":308.295,"end":331.511,"text":"是這樣子所以我認為公共工程委員會我們的業務也都非常非常的重要那除了公共工程委員會之外相關的各部會也會面臨這樣子預算如果不解凍我們很多業務真的受到影響這真的是要講清楚說明白了那我們這邊也呼籲我們幫我們交通委員我們的林朝偉跟我們的徐朝偉我們都會來希望來倒三天讓我們的案子可以做處理"},{"start":333.112,"end":348.131,"text":"那主委我想我們屏東縣這個去年我們來做的一個橋樑的一個檢測那其中全國一年裡面要檢測U3的橋樑有1461座那屏東縣是排名第二我們有"},{"start":350.273,"end":373.488,"text":"197座的橋樑必須要做一個一年要做處理那另外U4等級的部分就是嚴重損害的部分我們也是排名第二有兩件那剛剛主委說這個未來這個預算面臨這樣的一個困境怎麼樣協助屏東縣政府來做這樣的一個財政的一個處理然後甚至針對維修的橋樑的一個安全的部分來做一個檢測"},{"start":376.026,"end":392.846,"text":"我們會要求這個相關的橋樑的主管機關包括縣政府也好或專案機關也好U4的部分要立即處理啦立即改善U3的部分我們希望在迅速報未來一年內要改善的計畫到工程會來列管"},{"start":393.877,"end":413.137,"text":"主委那剛剛已經講過了就是我們現在運營所一年只有湊查300座我想這數量真的是不足啦怎麼樣去強化這樣的一個建設它的維修機關或上級機關會去看然後每兩年至少要去查核一次啦是啊這本身我們又來幫忙跨部會來督促一下"},{"start":414.622,"end":431.519,"text":"我們會要求相關的主管機關或維修機關一定要依法依相關規定每兩年要去檢測一次好 這部分我們還是維護我們的車輛安全那您我想根據主計總出這個物價的一個指數那2021年我們漲了10.94%2022年漲了7.36%"},{"start":438.706,"end":452.012,"text":"去年1.74%然後我想這樣的一個工程物價指數的不斷上漲我想對於我們的營建業者造成很大的一個壓力尤其我們很多公共工程的發包這注意最清楚的這都面臨很多這個預算的一個問題"},{"start":454.993,"end":473.669,"text":"這個我在去年的時候在這邊有請教過主委要怎麼樣來協助我們這個屏東縣政府來做這樣的一個合理性的一個招標然後能夠讓我們很多的公用工程能夠順利那主委面對我們這個物價上漲的速度我們物條的部分這部分要怎麼樣的協助"},{"start":475.945,"end":502.168,"text":"是如果已經執行完畢了那造成禮約爭議啊那麼工程會會協助來調解啦來執行後來調解如果在執行中的因為誤調的這個主張那麼縣市政府或主辦機關他可以提改就修正計劃修正計劃看主管機關來核定是不是能來再來修正相關的預算"},{"start":503.554,"end":526.165,"text":"因為主委也很清楚屏東縣的狀況我們有原鄉有橫峰半島偏鄉然後還有離島地區所以我們針對所謂的很多相關的物價成本都比其他地方要更高所以我們提出來的部分也希望我們主委這邊能夠全力來協助不過因為現在有些已經本來已經核定"},{"start":527.353,"end":546.959,"text":"或者是已經準備核定的重大的工件那麼因為預算不知道還有財劃法的執行都有的會有暫停所以也許這一未來這一兩年整個重大工工程發包可能會順延沒有像以前那麼多好主委謝謝你辛苦了謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":661,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時36分）謝謝主席，有請我們陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["徐委員富癸：主委早，主委辛苦了。我認識的主委，過去不管從中央到地方，都擔任過很多的職務，甚至在政治的歷練上面，也是我很敬重的一個前輩，今天看到你在生氣，真的很捨不得！"],["陳主任委員金德：不會生氣啦！"],["徐委員富癸：剛剛看到前面幾位委員的質詢裡面，我覺得又要馬兒肥，又要馬兒不吃草，那是不可能的事情，尤其我們公共工程委員會兼顧的範圍是全國，包含公共建設，包含採購預算的監督，包括很多重大工程的督促，工程會扮演很重要的角色。現在我看到你們的預算有5億多，包含凍結跟刪除的大概有高達21%，主委，前幾天看到我們在野黨的召委，在院會的時候有點名了好幾個部會，主委有被點到嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：那天沒有，因為我們工程會的預算很少啦！大概就零頭而已啦！5億！"],["徐委員富癸：但是我認為工程會的預算很重要，尤其這個21%如果不解凍，你認為後面的工作會不會受到很大的影響？"],["陳主任委員金德：對，因為這5億中，業務費是2億，凍結一半，雖然我們沒有資本支出，即我們自己不發包工程，但是這個業務費是用於督導或者是查核，或者是管控所有公共建設它的發包、它的品質、它的進度或協調爭議、履約等等，要做這些事情，相對來講，2億刪一半剩下1億，就是我們有一半的工作沒辦法做，假設我們相關的處要去看100座橋梁，因為業務費已經凍結一半，那就只能去看50座橋梁，就是一半，這樣影響所及；且我們今年納管的公共建設有7,700億，就是1億以上的才納管，其他則是各機關自己納管，7,700億的公共建設，如果凍結我們一半的業務費，意思就是說，我們只能先管控3,800億的公共建設，其他3,800億的預算是沒有經費去管控的。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，這就是本席擔心的問題，剛剛你在業務簡報裡面有特別提到，除了關切公共建設的進度之外，很重要的就是我們賴總統提出均衡臺灣的政策，我想工程會也扮演一個很重要的角色；還有7月份颱風季節來臨的時候，萬一有一些復建工程我們現在要去勘災，要去做一個審查的時候，我看連你們的出差費也被砍了很多，那之後是要怎麼出差、怎麼看勘察這些問題？"],["陳主任委員金德：像凱米颱風，各縣市都受到影響；0403花蓮地震、0121臺南地震等等，這些跟災後重建、復建有關的工程，都必須要工程會來統合，所以一定要到現地去看；然後其他機關包括主計或相關主管機關也會去看，然後再來協助地方政府，看看大概可以補助多少；然後地方政府把這些案送到工程會，我們還要去審查，包括這個地方補助多少，那個地方補助多少，假設這個預算確實已經凍結，沒辦法解凍，那汛期來了，今年的重大風災等等或是要重建的時候，會影響到我們的出勤人數跟能力，所以這裡面的確會受影響。"],["徐委員富癸：誠如主委剛剛講的，大家都在說金質獎不能做一半、不能辦一半，那你勘災能夠只有勘上半年，下半年不勘嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：就是如果說這兩億的預算凍結一半，剩下一億，那其他的部分，剛才有委員說能不能調，當然是可以調，其他經常性的，這邊稍微調一下、挪一下，儘量使用到一半；但是金質獎這部分沒辦法調，金質獎沒辦法說只使用多少，以後同意再來辦，而如果我把其他的業務費調到金質獎來，看起來是可以，問題是在預算能不能解凍還不知道的情況之下會互相排擠，會排擠到其他的業務，所以這也是金質獎我們所考慮的部分，也就是在沒有獲得大院支持預算解凍的情況之下，有可能今年會評估停辦的原因是這樣。"],["徐委員富癸：對，主委，所以我認為公共工程委員會的業務也都非常、非常地重要，除了公共工程委員會之外，相關的各部會也會面臨這樣的情況，預算如果不解凍，很多業務真的都會受到影響，這真的是要講清楚、說明白啦。我們這邊也呼籲，我們交通委員會林召委跟許召委，我們都會來幫忙，讓這些案子可以趕快來做處理。","主委，去年我們屏東縣有做橋梁的檢測，其中全國一年裡面檢測是U3的橋梁有1,461座，屏東縣是排名第二，我們有197座橋梁一年內必須要做處理；另外，U4等級也就是嚴重損害的部分，我們也是排名第二，有兩件。剛剛主委說，未來預算面臨這樣的困境，怎麼樣協助屏東縣政府來做這樣的財政處理，甚至針對橋梁維修的安全部分來做檢測？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員，我們會要求相關橋梁的主管機關，包括縣政府也好或中央機關也好，U4的部分要立即處理、立即改善，U3的部分，我們希望迅速報未來一年內要改善的計畫到工程會來列管。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，剛剛已經講過了，現在運研所一年只有抽查300座，我想這個數量真的是不足啦，怎麼樣去強化這樣的檢核量能？"],["陳主任委員金德：它的維修機關或上級機關會去看，每兩年至少要去查核一次。"],["徐委員富癸：是，這部分是不是我們再來幫忙跨部會督促一下？"],["陳主任委員金德：對，我們會要求相關的主管機關或維修機關一定要依法、依相關規定，每兩年要去檢測一次。"],["徐委員富癸：好，這部分還是要維護我們的橋梁安全。","另外，根據主計總處的工程物價指數，2021年漲了10.94%，2022年漲了7.36%，去年是1.74%，我想工程物價指數的不斷上漲，對於我們的營建業者造成很大的壓力，尤其是很多公共工程的發包，主委最清楚，都面臨很多的預算問題，這部分我在去年的時候在這邊有請教過主委，要怎麼樣來協助我們屏東縣政府來做合理性的招標，能夠讓我們很多的公共工程能夠順利。主委，面對物價上漲的速度，在物調的部分要怎麼樣來協助？"],["陳主任委員金德：如果已經執行完畢，造成履約爭議的部分，我們工程會會來協助諮詢或調解，如果是在執行中的，如果主張物調，縣市政府或主辦機關可以提修正計畫，經過主管機關核定，看是不是能夠再來修正相關的預算。"],["徐委員富癸：因為主委也很清楚屏東縣的狀況嘛，我們有原鄉、有恆春半島、偏鄉，還有離島地區，所以我們很多相關的物價成本都比其他地方還要高，所以我們提出來的部分，也希望主委這邊能夠全力來協助。"],["陳主任委員金德：不過現在有些本來已經核定或是已經準備核定的重大公建，因為不知道預算，以及財劃法的執行，有的會暫停，所以也許未來這一、兩年整個重大公共工程的發包可能會順延，沒有像以前那麼多。"],["徐委員富癸：好，主委謝謝，你辛苦了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員。","現在我們請許智傑召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},{"id":"159262","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159262","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbc417bbb98774f78aa4d8ee7d728f0553b6aeebfddff728efeedc1de391cb15195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:57:15 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被主席提醒是外圍 很難過 好 來五分鐘 那個有請主委 謝謝主委 請被質詢"},{"start":18.35,"end":42.028,"text":"好 主委 我過去一整年不對 是一年多都一直在跟國科會討論關於兒少自殺的死因回溯很開心國科會當時就承諾了會進行後續的研究確實我們辦公室也收到了好幾次的會議通知我們確實開會了很多的實質內容這個部分真的要感謝國科會願意以國家的力量來研究來協助支持我們台灣的大人去理解兒少身心狀況的改變"},{"start":43.109,"end":64.156,"text":"但是我想問一下目前的進度時間有限我們直接跳到這一張目前給我們的書面回覆說因為有人事調動新來的黃處長2月17才到任我們知道在業務交接上應該還有一些理解的困難跟落差那可不可以請主委這邊快速讓我們知道一下這個案子會不會持續然後後續的進度規劃因為你們在研究計畫當中提到會有AI的部分"},{"start":67.697,"end":84.793,"text":"那我想AI的部分到底适不适合你们的专家学者应该有一些讨论但我想我还是要提醒而上死因回溯这件事情他必须要处理的伦理议题也好专业议题也好或者是研究方法也好其实我相信有更多专家学者可以参与这边是不是可以请国科会这边简单回应一下"},{"start":85.478,"end":112.625,"text":"好謝謝陳委員我們絕對支持我請新來的黃處長好那處長我時間有限可不可以請您簡單快速回覆我想我們之後會可以繼續開會討論是跟委員報告就這個計劃案就是我們目前從113年啟動之後事實上關於這個結合AI的這個實務研究還有特別針對這兒少在心理危機還有自殺風險的分析這目前都就正在"},{"start":113.906,"end":140.149,"text":"進行當中相信不久應該就會有一個比較清楚的輪廓好那我想不管是輪廓或是後續研究推進的進度或者是我們多久要產出一些報告不管是長期的短期的我們都非常期待看到透過研究來讓我們台灣的大人理解兒少身心健康的議題那可能也讓教育部或衛福部在做成相關政策的時候有非常重要的參考依據這部分謝謝國科會我們一起繼續努力好"},{"start":140.589,"end":156.036,"text":"接下來我也一直在談科普這件事情我知道我們有新的相關的主任然後也有相關新的想像但是我還是要強調關於科普不會只有活動這件事情那我想我們就負責任的來提出一些建議來看下一張"},{"start":157.717,"end":181.643,"text":"其實我們之前一直談過除了活動之外其實還有所謂的科學傳播跟知識轉譯那所謂科學傳播跟知識轉譯有哪些呢我們就舉一些例子來這個是新的例子就是從科技部轉到國科會被放生的SMC台灣科技媒體中心的計畫我想那個時候主委您還不在可能對於這個事情沒有記憶但我跟您簡單說一下2027到2021當時是在科技部的計畫支持下成立"},{"start":186.264,"end":210.069,"text":"後來呢到了2022年科技部只有一個一年計畫後來到2023年主改為國科會之後就停止支持這個項目的工作到目前為止台灣科技媒體中心居然是由新穎寺民主基金會在支持台灣的這個台灣科技媒體中心做的相關的研究跟報導不知道這個部分主委您怎麼看"},{"start":212.422,"end":231.877,"text":"這個項目其實我並不清楚對我剛一開始就有說那我這邊提出來還是我先幫我回到上一張頭影片我這邊之所以提出來就是我屢次都強調活動當然很棒而且越來越好之前有非常多委員提醒了不要有過度的宣傳的費用造成了好像只有宣傳的沒有實質活動所以我們非常謝謝你"},{"start":232.677,"end":254.743,"text":"李老師在您到任之後您確實實質改善了很多事情那我們現在就是進一步想要拜託國科會傳播的部分知識轉移的部分我相信我們可以一起來努力往下一章所以我才會提出台灣SMC這件事情那我相信主委您是不清楚的沒關係我們之後再來進一步討論好 謝謝委員好 這個部分我們會追蹤那下一個其實科普政策"},{"start":255.843,"end":261.914,"text":"還有另外一個事情就是獎項規劃的部分目前國客會我跟你們說過的獎項的部分我覺得好像現在還是處於一個搭便車的狀態沒有實質的推進這個部分主委可不可以回應一下"},{"start":275.157,"end":285.083,"text":"抱歉委員我沒有聽懂這個問題就是在你們自己的諮詢委員會當中我們談到所謂科普工作者設定一個獎項來鼓勵對然後你們的諮詢委員會真的很棒開啟了討論那在會議當中委員們也都很支持委員說"},{"start":293.308,"end":318.845,"text":"一可以考慮跟其他縣有獎項合作例如說個人獎的部分可以結合國科會的傑出研究獎或者是再跟文化部討論有沒有相關的合作或者是跟走鐘獎甚至有這個走鐘獎的合作的可能性那一個是國科會為主體去支持所謂這些科普工作者或者是跟別的單位合作我都認為應該更有國科會的主體性好 他們已經有言議我請他報告一下清楚好 謝謝"},{"start":321.239,"end":326.68,"text":"跟委員報告就是如螢幕上所示就是我們是有這三種規劃就是"},{"start":328.358,"end":354.114,"text":"如果可以以國科會的傑出獎來搭配的話其實是更有學術的價值好那如果是這樣我們期待後續的規劃好不好那最後一張最後一張好就是我的建議在這邊因為他們還沒有跟我報告我知道我知道那我們期待後續更有國科會的主體性讓這些傑出的科普工作者受到鼓勵然後更多國人看見好科普的事情我們可以一起更努力謝謝主委謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝陳培育委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":643,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時57分）被主席提醒是外委很難過。好，5分鐘，有請主委，謝謝。"],["主席：主委請備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委，我過去一年多都一直在跟國科會討論關於兒少自殺的死因回溯，很開心國科會當時就承諾了會進行後續的研究，確實我們辦公室也收到了好幾次的會議通知，我們確實開會討論很多的實質內容。這個部分真的要感謝國科會願意以國家的力量來研究、協助、支持我們臺灣的大人去理解兒少身心狀況的改變。","但是我想問一下目前的進度，因為我時間有限，我們直接跳到這一張。目前給我們的書面回復說因為有人事調動，新來的黃處長2月17才到任。我們知道在業務交接上應該還有一些理解的困難跟落差，那可不可以請主委快速讓我們知道一下這個案子會不會持續及後續的進度規劃？因為你們在研究計畫當中提到會有AI的部分，我想AI的部分到底適不適合，你們的專家學者應該有一些討論，但我還是要提醒兒少死因回溯這件事情必須要處理的倫理議題也好，專業議題也好，或者是研究方法也好，其實我相信有更多專家學者可以參與，是不是可以請國科會簡單回應一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝陳委員，我們絕對支持，我請新來的黃處長說明。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，處長，我時間有限，可不可以請您簡單快速回復？我想我們之後可以繼續開會討論。"],["黃處長俊儒：跟委員報告，這個計畫案我們從113年啟動之後，事實上關於結合AI實務研究還有特別針對兒少在心理危機還有自殺風險的分析，目前都在進行當中，相信不久應該就會有一個比較清楚的輪廓。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，不管是輪廓或是後續研究推進的進度或者是我們多久要產出一些報告，不管是長期的、短期的，我們都非常期待看到透過研究來讓臺灣的大人理解兒少身心健康的議題，可能也讓教育部或衛福部在做成相關政策的時候，有非常重要的參考依據，這部分謝謝國科會，我們一起繼續努力。","接下來我也一直在談科普這件事情，我知道我們有新的主任，也有相關新的想像，但是我還是要強調關於科普不會只有活動這件事情，我想我們就負責任地來提出一些建議。其實我們之前一直談過，除了活動之外，其實還有所謂的科學傳播跟知識轉譯，所謂科學傳播跟知識轉譯有哪些呢？我們就舉一些例子來看，這個是新的例子，就是從科技部轉到國科會被放生的SMC（台灣科技媒體中心）的計畫，我想那個時候主委您還不在，可能對於這個事情沒有記憶，但我跟您簡單說一下，2017到2021年，當時是在科技部的計畫支持下成立，到了2022年，科技部只有一個一年計畫，後來到2023年組改為國科會之後，就停止支持這個項目的工作。到目前為止，台灣科技媒體中心居然是由西敏寺民主基金會在支持台灣科技媒體中心做的相關研究跟報導，不知道這個部分主委您怎麼看？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個項目其實我並不清楚。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，我剛剛一開始就有說，我這邊之所以提出來，就是我屢次都強調活動當然很棒，而且越來越好，之前有非常多委員提醒的不要有過度的宣傳費用，造成了好像只有宣傳沒有實質的活動，所以我們非常謝謝李老師，在您到任之後，您確實實質改善了很多事情，我們現在就是進一步想要拜託國科會，傳播的部分、知識轉譯的部分，我相信我們可以一起來努力，所以我才會提出SMC這件事情。我相信主委您是不清楚的，沒關係，我們之後再來進一步討論。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個部分我們會追蹤。","下一個，其實科普政策還有另外一個事情，就是獎項規劃的部分，我跟你們說過的獎項的部分，我覺得目前國科會好像還是處於搭便車的狀態，沒有實質的推進，這個部分主委可不可以回應一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：抱歉，委員，我沒有聽懂這個問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，就是在你們自己的諮詢委員會當中，我們談到所謂科普工作者設定一個獎項來鼓勵很多科普……"],["吳主任委員誠文：喔，特別為他們……"],["陳委員培瑜：對、對、對，然後你們的諮詢委員會真的很棒，開啟了討論，在會議當中，委員們也都很支持，委員說可以考慮跟其他現有獎項合作，例如個人獎的部分可以結合國科會的傑出研究獎，或者是再跟文化部討論有沒有相關的合作，甚至有提出跟走鐘獎合作的可能性。一個是國科會為主體去支持所謂這些科普工作者，或者是跟別的單位合作，我都認為應該更有國科會的主體性。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，他們已經有研議，我請他報告一下進度。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。"],["李處長旺龍：跟委員報告，就是如螢幕上所示，我們有這三種規劃，如果可以與國科會的傑出獎來搭配的話，其實是更有學術的價值。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，如果是這樣，我們期待後續的規劃，好不好？","最後一張是我的建議……"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個因為他們還沒有跟我報告……"],["陳委員培瑜：我知道、我知道、我知道，我們期待後續更有國科會的主體性，讓這些傑出的科普工作者受到鼓勵，然後讓更多國人看見。科普的事情，我們可以一起再努力，謝謝主委，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，歡迎多回來我們教文委員會質詢，謝謝主委，請回座，謝謝。","接著我們繼續進行質詢，請萬美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}},{"id":"159261","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159261","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbfb66da89bc434547a4d8ee7d728f0553eba1aea0cf818e91fbc405ee1c6225db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:47:27 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今天有兩題想跟您請教跟討論第一個是關於我的預算提案就是大型學術會議的無障礙配套第二個是關於AI在學術應用上的角色跟規範"},{"start":33.849,"end":40.537,"text":"第一個部分就是我已經跟你們問了就是我的預算提案那你們有正在準備那你們已經會修正那個國科會的補助國內舉辦國際學術研討會的作業要點的第八點未來的申請機構可以編列無障礙措施經費需求我覺得這個非常好那這點我表示肯定"},{"start":54.673,"end":79.707,"text":"那但是呢我的預算案其實是要講到是說要落實啊那因為我知道對機構來講這還是有點麻煩的事嘛你有經費補助他能夠提出不代表他會做那我覺得一開始這個階段這樣是蠻好的那所以我想請那個國科會是不是可以參考衛福部2024年去年10月修正的身心障礙者融合式會議及活動參考指引那訂一個時間表譬如說"},{"start":83.669,"end":107.356,"text":"你們認為多久內我們國內所有的大型學術會議都能夠有無障礙的設施好嗎好謝謝委員我這個建議是很好所以我們現在正在努力因為學界學界是蠻自由的那我們希望首先先透過這個引導我們邊預算他們可以來申請引導他們做然後慢慢讓大家習慣以後"},{"start":108.556,"end":120.066,"text":"接下來下階段看看能不能變成是一個規定這個可能是需要一年兩年或者是更久可以給我一個時間表然後不同階段做法那能不能夠那個兩個月內給我辦公室一個報告呢好謝謝主委的支持那我想這是對大家來講就是我們國際化的重要指標"},{"start":129.915,"end":149.691,"text":"那第二個就是AI,我知道主委也非常熟悉這個主題那也很關心,那國歌會我想你們應該對這個題目也非常的有興趣,正在發展因為我自己辦公室做了一些研究那2023年的Nature的一篇文章就有指出研究者其實早已開始用Chat GPT譬如說改英文、改句子"},{"start":155.535,"end":183.871,"text":"包含總結文獻去為文獻做總結然後那未來這篇文章講到其實它甚至可以幫你做研究設計以後甚至還可以幫忙就是審查論文所以它的角色其實是越來越重要那我想問主委你認為AI運用於學術研究哪些行為是可以接受的哪些是不行主委可不可以解答一下因為我後面還有很多要問您請教您的"},{"start":184.511,"end":211.032,"text":"有關像CHECKGP這種AI的工具應用在各種各樣的領域是一個趨勢我們當然也希望它能夠變成是一個好的工具但是要怎麼樣去防止它變成是一個規避所謂的創作人的創作然後還有智慧財產權的議題等等我們可能還需要一些配套措施還需要再研議"},{"start":212.313,"end":234.749,"text":"那那個我們傳統的所謂的學術倫理定義的範圍現在都還依然存在將來我們可能的做法就是將來AI創作的部分要留下軌跡讓我們可以辨識這種規定將來可能會慢慢會實施就是留下軌跡可以辨識或者是所謂的自我揭露那這可能會是基本的"},{"start":235.469,"end":256.197,"text":"那我的辦公室的那個做了一些小的research我們發現那個Nature2023年跟Science2024年就指出因為AI的快速發展它的技術其實是可以被運用在偽造學術研究上那甚至有一些跡象就是指出它的可以處理假資料"},{"start":256.837,"end":285.296,"text":"沒有驗證的學術假設他可以幫你跑出怎麼樣資料是適合的那甚至已經有期刊他出現大量的評論文章因為在譬如說Medical research就是這邊那你這個commentary事實上是不用peer review的不用同儕的他比較容易刊登某些就是南亞的一些機構大學可能會鼓勵他們的員工做這樣的部分那所以這部分就已經有產生了"},{"start":286.957,"end":308.612,"text":"所以AI時代下學術評論投稿跟被撤回的論文暴增那已經有一些研究覺得這個有相關比如說我這邊引用的Nature的一篇文章2023年的文章中法國的一位電腦科學家就說有個期刊出版社叫Hindawi他撤回了"},{"start":309.272,"end":331.723,"text":"一年內就撤回了8000論文因為它旗下有好幾個期刊裡面包含文具會故意用一些字句避免被抄襲軟體發現而且有跡象顯示其中的一些論文沒有揭露使用AI但是這些已經被撤回的論文其實已經有引用過超過三萬五千字就整體"},{"start":332.924,"end":358.195,"text":"那另外就是Science的2024年的文章也指出有一個期刊叫做Neurosurgical Review那它的編輯說他們暫時停止接受評論性的學術文章就Commentary因為他們發現這裡面大量增加的評論文章的是由Chat、GPD等AI工具撰寫的仔細去看的話可能就是品質低落或者是完全沒有相關性"},{"start":359.515,"end":371.315,"text":"所以我想這些就是重量級的期刊裡面提到的現象所以主委剛剛聽起來您是同意學術研究中的AI使用是要揭露嗎"},{"start":372.262,"end":395.431,"text":"是 我認為這樣 這也是趨勢 但是AI創作不管是影像 影片 還有文字 藝術品等等這些東西要留下軌跡 有一個叫浮水印的技術 這個還在發展當中您認為學術的圖片可不可以用AI 只要自我揭露留下軌跡就可以使用AI的製作嗎"},{"start":399.074,"end":420.255,"text":"人的研究他的成果創造新的知識這是我們要省電學術文章的重點他要能夠讓人家相信這不是用工具自動做出來而是他自己的那這種機制是非常困難還在發展當中我們希望國科會將來也是慢慢要去注意這個事"},{"start":421.636,"end":429.28,"text":"我想您說慢慢我是覺得好像不能慢慢了要更快一點因為需要這個工具還在發展當中這個真的是需要專業來討論了解學術倫理的跟了解AIGPT的那我這邊辦公室就是你們目前的學術倫理裡面還並沒有包含AI這個部分我想主委很知道"},{"start":442.185,"end":459.651,"text":"那根據我們陽明交大的那個周嵌副校長他的網路上的那個公開的研究目前國際上多家學術期刊跟出版社我就不念了他有一些基本的規定第一個深層是不能成為作者"},{"start":460.171,"end":484.437,"text":"第二個要進行揭露AI寫作應該要在因為我想AI寫作國內我們也知道有蠻多會幫忙尤其是英文的寫作在研究方法或聲明等處要進行揭露那當然作者還是應該對原創性正確性完整性負完全的責任當然這只是一個學者國內學者的研究那我們辦公室也去查了您剛講到的圖像"},{"start":485.797,"end":511.913,"text":"非常有趣我們指標性的Nature已經明確指出他們不允許全部或部分使用生成式AI創作的影像、影片或插圖在它的網站上都可以看到理由是因為研究成性出於同意保護智慧財產權、隱私等這些原因當然我們未必完全需要跟Nature一樣但是我想今天其實就是藉這個機會"},{"start":513.547,"end":539.699,"text":"跟主委討論我們是不是應該要參考國際標準那國科會找相關的學者專家開始來評估那關於國內的期刊的標準就是我們的就是研究計畫等等是不是應該要有跟AI的相關的規範哪些是可以的行為那需不需要揭露那哪些是不行的那主委覺得呢可以這樣做嗎"},{"start":540.759,"end":552.468,"text":"好 謝謝委員的建議我覺得這個方向我非常肯定那我們誠信辦公室接下來會努力把委員這個建議我們會把它納進來那召集相關的這個學者"},{"start":554.042,"end":570.672,"text":"抱歉我們定定相關的規範感謝主委承諾那是不是也可以在您認為兩個月可以給我們一個初步的報告跟方向嗎可以謝謝主委對無障礙的支持還有對AI方向的進一步的釐清跟規範謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時47分）謝謝召委，有請主委。"],["主席：請主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：范委員好。"],["范委員雲：主委早。今天有兩題想跟您請教跟討論，第一個是關於我的預算提案，就是大型學術會議的無障礙配套，第二個是關於AI在學術應用上的角色跟規範。第一個部分我已經跟你們問了，就是我的預算提案，你們有正在準備，你們已經修正國科會補助國內舉辦國際學術研討會作業要點的第八點，未來的申請機構可以編列無障礙措施經費需求，我覺得這個非常好，這點我表示肯定，但是我的預算案其實講到的是要落實，因為我知道對機構來講這還是有點麻煩的事，你有經費補助，它能夠提出不代表它會做，我覺得一開始這個階段這樣是滿好的，所以想請國科會是不是可以參考衛福部2024年、去年10月修正的身心障礙者融合式會議及活動參考指引，訂一個時間表，譬如說你們認為多久內我們國內所有的大型學術會議都能夠有無障礙設施，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員，這個建議是很好，所以我們現在正在努力，因為學界是滿自由的，我們希望首先先透過引導，我們編預算，他們可以來申請，引導他們做，然後慢慢讓大家習慣以後，接下來下階段看看能不能變成是一個規定。"],["范委員雲：這個可能是需要1年、2年或者是更久，可以給我一個時間表，然後不同階段作法，能不能夠2個月內給我辦公室一個報告呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝，謝謝主委的支持，我想這對大家來講就是我們國際化的重要指標。","第二個就是AI，我知道主委非常熟悉這個主題，也很關心，我想國科會應該對這個題目也非常有興趣，正在發展，因為我自己辦公室做了一些研究，2023年Nature的一篇文章就有指出，研究者其實早已開始用ChatGPT，譬如說改英文、改句子，包含總結文獻。這篇文章講到它甚至可以幫你做研究設計，以後甚至還可以幫忙審查論文，所以它的角色其實是越來越重要。我想問主委，你認為AI運用於學術研究哪些行為是可以接受的、哪些是不行，主委可不可以簡答一下？因為後面還有很多要問您，請教您的看法。"],["吳主任委員誠文：有關像ChatGPT這種工具、AI的工具應用在各種各樣的領域是一個趨勢，我們當然也希望它能夠變成一個好的工具，但是要怎麼樣去防止它變成一個規避人的創作，還有智慧財產權的議題等等，我們可能還需要一些配套措施，還需要再研議。我們傳統學術倫理定義的範圍，現在都依然存在，將來我們可能的作法是AI創作的部分要留下軌跡，讓我們可以辨識，這種規定將來可能會慢慢實施。"],["范委員雲：很好！就是留下軌跡可以辨識，或者是所謂的自我揭露，這可能會是基本的，我辦公室做了一些小的research，我們發現Nature 2023年跟Science 2024年就指出，因為AI的快速發展，它的技術其實可以被運用在偽造學術研究上，甚至有一些跡象指出它可以處理假資料，沒有驗證的學術假設，它可以幫你跑出怎麼樣資料是適合的，甚至已經有期刊出現大量的評論文章，譬如說Medical research這邊，commentary事實上是不用peer review，不用同儕審查，它比較容易刊登，某些南亞的機構大學可能會鼓勵他們的員工做這樣的部分，所以這部分已經有產生所謂的假評論。在AI時代下，學術評論投稿跟被撤回的論文暴增，已經有一些研究覺得這個有相關。譬如說我這邊引用Nature 2023年的一篇文章，文章中法國的一位電腦科學家就說有個期刊出版社叫Hindawi，它一年內就撤回了8,000篇，因為它旗下有好幾個期刊，裡面包含會故意用一些字句，避免被抄襲軟體發現，而且有跡象顯示其中的一些論文沒有揭露使用AI，但是這些已經被撤回的論文其實已經有引用過超過3萬5,000字，就整體而言。","另外是Science 2024年的文章也指出有個期刊叫做Neurosurgical Review，其編輯說他們暫時停止接受評論性的學術文章，就是commentary，因為他們發現這裡面大量增加的評論文章是由ChatGPT等AI工具撰寫的，仔細去看的話可能品質低落或者是完全沒有相關性，這些是重量級期刊裡面提到的現象。主委剛剛的回答聽起來是同意學術研究中的AI使用要揭露嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我認為是這樣，這也是趨勢，但是AI創作不管是影像、影片、文字、藝術品等等，這些東西要留下軌跡有一個叫做浮水印的技術，這個還在發展當中。"],["范委員雲：您認為學術的圖片可不可以用AI？只要有自我揭露留下軌跡，就可以使用AI製作嗎？像ChatGPT很會做圖。"],["吳主任委員誠文：人的研究，他的成果、創造新的知識，這是我們要審定學術文章的重點，他要能夠讓人家相信這不是用工具自動做出來，而是他自己的，這種機制非常困難，還在發展當中，我們希望國科會將來也要慢慢去注意這件事。"],["范委員雲：您說慢慢，但我覺得好像不能慢慢了，要更快一點。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為需要的工具還在發展當中。"],["范委員雲：對，這個真的是需要專業來討論，了解學術倫理跟了解AI，就是ChatGPT的，你們目前的學術倫理案件審議要點裡面並沒有包含AI這個部分，我想主委很知道，根據陽明交大周倩副校長網路上的公開研究，目前國際上多家學術期刊跟出版社，我就不唸了，它有一些基本的規定，第一個，生成式AI不能成為作者。第二個，有關AI寫作的部分，AI寫作國內我們也知道有蠻多會幫忙，尤其是英文的寫作，所以若使用AI寫作，應在研究方法或聲明等處進行揭露。第三個，作者還是應該對原創性、正確性、完整性負完全的責任。當然這只是一個國內學者的研究，我們辦公室也去查了您剛講到的圖像，非常有趣，我們指標性的Nature已經明確指出，他們不允許全部或部分使用生成式AI創作的影像、影片或插圖，在它的網站上都可以看到，理由是因為研究誠信、出於同意、保護智慧財產權、隱私等這些原因。當然我們未必完全需要跟Nature一樣，但是我想今天借這個機會跟主委討論，我們是不是應該要參考國際標準，國科會找相關的學者專家，開始來評估關於國內期刊的標準，就是我們研究計畫等等，是不是應該要有跟AI的相關規範？哪些是可以的行為，需不需要揭露，哪些是不行的，主委覺得呢？可以這樣做嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員的建議，這個方向我非常肯定，我們誠信辦公室接下來會努力，我們會把委員這個建議納進來，召集相關的學者，我們訂定相關的規範。"],["范委員雲：感謝主委承諾，您是不是可以在兩個月內給我們一個初步的報告跟方向？"],["吳主任委員誠文：兩個月可以。"],["范委員雲：可以？好，謝謝主委對無障礙的支持，還有對AI方向進一步的釐清跟規範，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員的質詢，主委請回座，謝謝。","我們接著繼續進行質詢，請陳培瑜委員質詢，因為是第1位外委會的，時間5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}},{"id":"159260","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159260","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb9c45192796cd510dad7e46c29134393ceba1aea0cf818e9135370ae7c0b599e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:43:47 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有請環境部部長環境部目前運行的空瓶監測系統已經有很多年了"},{"start":29.946,"end":57.233,"text":"但是台灣的PM2.5濃度還是一樣偏高委員不會喔我們從8年前大概平均20降到12.8去年12.8是嗎對但是我們根據環環境部的統計就是台灣的部分地區年度啦經營PM2.5濃度能超過世界衛生組織在7歐的最新標準"},{"start":57.853,"end":72.829,"text":"所以請問部長你覺得說環境部你覺得是這樣子的你覺得是比較減少的話今天就不會排來去質詢所以說我們的定期檢討還有現行的監測點的數據是準確的嗎"},{"start":76.953,"end":97.839,"text":"如果準確的話為什麼會有這樣不準確是準確性的嗎不好委員手動跟自動本來就不一樣的東西例如說委員你在洗澡的時候對我說那個數據有準確嗎當然準確啊我們是按照一個法規自動跟手動的定義就不一樣我舉例例如說我們在浴室裡面我們要洗熱水澡一打開有水蒸氣那個水蒸氣呢就PM2.5就會超標因為水分子"},{"start":101.6,"end":121.441,"text":"濕度會讓小微粒變大變成PM2.5可是事實上有沒有計畫增加就是各個點比較偵測密度比較高的地方有沒有增加點我們有比較好一點的很嚴格的堅定例如說自動跟手動的這個其實它的費用是很高的那很多這種所謂的IoT"},{"start":122.982,"end":136.171,"text":"這種自動型的那個便宜比較便宜可能就幾千塊一萬塊的那個可以再多因為一個是看趨勢一個看實質上的量那我們還我們國家目前還是以手動的監測因為他比有比較好的科學方法的論證會比較好"},{"start":138.304,"end":147.709,"text":"但是我們看到的是不是你講的那麼完美所以我們除了就是監測數據問題之外還有過去我們看到的有企業有很多企業違反就是空屋房子的法規但是罰款就是比較偏低就導致就是違反成本比較低所以環境成本也比較沒辦法達成就是大家都遵守"},{"start":168.119,"end":181.773,"text":"所以我們環境部對於這樣子的企業是否有強力的監管的措施或者是提高他們的罰款才能就是減少空污"},{"start":183.035,"end":199.188,"text":"有嗎包委員這個我上任之後對於這種所謂的偷牌或是不實數據都是重罰的所以我也不知道有沒有注意到我們幾個月前我們曾經罰了一個漁船一個港啊大概一千多萬所以其實委員那個那個其實費用是很高的"},{"start":200.127,"end":226.008,"text":"費用很高為什麼還是一樣很多的空屋還有很多的企業就當然是說那個如石化鋼鐵還有就是燃燒發電等還有一些空屋的重要的來源還是一樣是沒辦法去改善才會造成現在的空屋所以我們台中空屋最嚴重了"},{"start":227.649,"end":247.786,"text":"委員其實我找到報告裡面有一張是我們所有的污染物的來源其實你說的是固定污染源也有移動污染源還有各種的污染源都在裡面那其實要大家改善一起改善才有辦法做得到所以剛才我們委員就是質詢了快要半個小時但是你要說去參加別人的"},{"start":251.208,"end":276.504,"text":"參加日本的所以我看到日本的VOC的管制很特別很特別但是我們要去考察就是看到別人要回來自己要改進或者是有一個措施來去製作要去規定嘛還有就是說一些企業我們就是要去罰款還有是要去溝通還有如何就是減少這樣子的空氣汙染"},{"start":278.285,"end":299.496,"text":"所以我們不是說我們去人家餓了自己放來沒辦法我們很積極的在處理規劃這個事情但是其實一個很例如說剛剛講的VOC其實它涉及到民生所有的產品委員你每天在用的噴髮膠等等全部都有要管制其實這個要方法的不然的話其實會造成很大民眾"},{"start":300.837,"end":324.276,"text":"我們正在規劃當中都是每次執行都是規劃中執行中討論中我們是正在進行當中都沒有真正的是這個一個明確的措施沒有沒有委員我們其實很多事情都積極的在推動當中但是有些事情涉及到很多的部會這真的要需要一些時間來做溝通要準備好才能夠推出來"},{"start":325.148,"end":346.823,"text":"好 所以準備好也不知道準備到什麼時候所以我們希望說在我們的未來是不是有計畫加速燃煤電廠的檢排設備還有可不可以是升級還有說可不可以就是淘汰就是高污染的發電廠這樣子的話是不是可以重啟核電呢"},{"start":354.403,"end":379.315,"text":"有沒有這樣子的可能報告委員其實燃煤電廠當然舊的燃煤電廠它基本上是污染很嚴重但是如果它把CCS或是各種的空污減排做下去其實它也可以乾淨的但是我們還是希望由煤轉氣而是我們看到現在澳洲各國都是重新就是核電但是我們政府的錯誤政策讓我們的全民買單"},{"start":382.877,"end":384.839,"text":"現在下個月又說可能會漲電價所以看起來是非常不可我們的部長是不是承諾跟我們的人民說我們不會去漲價"},{"start":394.599,"end":399.302,"text":"這個電價不是我主管的我不能夠承諾這個事情啊對啊你沒有辦法承諾但是你們也要是真的是有跨部會來去來去協助來去討論才有說現在我們這邊的空氣汙染啊所有影響到大家就是頭腦鈍鈍啊問問不好回答也會不會回答這樣子啊是不是所以我們希望說我們是沒辦法漲價但是我們要去把關還有政策要"},{"start":424.04,"end":434.567,"text":"準確性不管是室內室外還有我們的汽車交通全部我們要希望大家要來去買電動車但是我們又沒有設備集權所以我們的空氣又在污染"},{"start":442.072,"end":458.349,"text":"這個部分我們也是要去跨部會來去討論不是說我們再問到我們的環境部交通部經濟部大家都說我們要去問其他部還是怎麼樣我們各部會都請大家民間要"},{"start":460.872,"end":471.098,"text":"聯合要是共同就是橫向來去討論但是我們各部會自己做自己的所以到最後說我們再來去問我們再來去討論所以不知道到民國幾年"},{"start":476.12,"end":495.13,"text":"所以我們希望我們台灣的空氣品質不關於是民眾的健康每天我們都是用就是空清氣的費來去吸這樣子的空氣所以我們希望說我們的空氣要好別人才會進來我們台灣來去投資還有移民還有居住這邊這安全所以我們交通的污染也是沒有去"},{"start":504.554,"end":526.995,"text":"去跨部會 經濟部很多中小企業跟我們的環境部也沒有辦法去連結 所以我們希望跨部會來去連結有一個具體的計畫讓我們知道說我們今年我們已經預算已經在補助了但是呢都沒有去有計畫怎麼去執行現在"},{"start":529.777,"end":536.641,"text":"都在去炒說什麼上預算但是有的預算為什麼沒有去規劃來去做呢還有我們是沒有我們的立法院沒有去說去上預算我們在今年我們年初的時候我們去審預算在2020年"},{"start":551.99,"end":573.221,"text":"4年的预算我们还没有省大家也是花光了对不对所以现在我们希望各部会真正的回到自己的岗位把自己该做的要来去规划跨部会来去讨论如何才会让我们的人民住的安心住的健康"},{"start":574.281,"end":578.043,"text":"所以這個部分希望我們的部長在空屋治理行動計畫要三個月內可不可以提出來讓我們來做參考說你真正的來去做我們不想聽到各部會都說我們再來討論我們回去再檢討我們再來去做我希望說我們要提出具體的"},{"start":600.476,"end":626.175,"text":"真正的去改善了空氣的品質讓我們國民享受更健康生活的環境可以嗎我們現在正在做的就是空品的白皮書為了未來五年整個我們空品改善策略第三期管制策略如何做得更好所以我們到時候下個月如果完成之後我們會再給委員請委員指標所以說下個月你就會有你可以提出具體的"},{"start":627.717,"end":636.289,"text":"計畫給我們不用三個月你現在就可以提出了我們正在努力在做就是等你提出具體的計畫真正的去執行謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":862,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（11時43分）謝謝主席，有請環境部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。環境部目前運行的空品監測系統已經有很多年了嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是臺灣的PM2.5濃度還是一樣偏高。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，不會喔！我們從8年前大概平均20，降到12.8，去年是12.8。"],["麥委員玉珍：是嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對，降低了很多。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是根據環境部的統計，就是臺灣的部分地區年均PM2.5濃度仍超過世界衛生組織（WHO）的最新標準。請問部長，你覺得這樣子是比較減少的話，今天就不會排這個質詢，你們的定期檢討，還有現行監測點的數據是準確的嗎？如果準確的話，為什麼會有這樣不準確的情況？是有準確性的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，手動跟自動本來就是不一樣的東西，例如委員你在洗澡的時候……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，我說那個數據有準確嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：當然準確啊，我們是按照法規，自動跟手動的定義不一樣。我舉例，例如我們在浴室裡面要洗熱水澡，一打開就有水蒸氣，那個水蒸氣會讓PM2.5超標，因為水分子的溼度會讓小微粒變大，變得PM2.5……可是事實上它……"],["麥委員玉珍：這樣有沒有計畫增加點呢？有沒有計畫增加點讓偵測密度提高？"],["彭部長啓明：我們有比較好一點的、很嚴格的監測，例如自動跟手動的，其實它的費用是很高的，很多那種所謂的IoT，這種自動型的比較便宜，可能只有幾千塊、1萬塊的，那個可以再多，因為一個是看趨勢，一個看實質上的量，我們國家目前還是以手動的監測為主，因為它有比較好的科學方法論證，會比較好。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，但是我們看到的不是你講得那麼完美，所以我們除了監測數據的問題之外，還有過去我們看到有很多企業違反空污防制的法規，但是罰款偏低，導致違法成本比較低，環境成本也比較沒辦法達成，就是讓大家都遵守，所以環境部對於這樣子的企業，是否有強力的監管措施，或者是提高他們的罰款，才能減少空污，有嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我上任之後，對於這種所謂的偷牌或是不實數據都是重罰的，所以委員不知道有沒有注意到，我們幾個月前曾經罰了一艘漁船，大概一千多萬。委員，其實那個費用是很高的。"],["麥委員玉珍：費用很高，為什麼還是一樣有很多的空污，還有很多的企業，包含如石化、鋼鐵、燃煤發電等，還有一些空污的重要來源，還是一樣沒辦法改善，才會造成現在的空污，像我們臺中空污最嚴重了，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，其實我早上的報告裡面有一張是我們所有污染物的來源，其實你說的是固定污染源，也有移動污染源。"],["麥委員玉珍：對。"],["彭部長啓明：還有各種的污染源都在裡面，其實要大家一起改善才有辦法做得到。"],["麥委員玉珍：是啊！所以剛才我們委員質詢了快要半個小時，但是你就說去參加別人的，去參加日本的，有要去……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，我看到日本VOC的管制很特別。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，很特別，但是我們去考察，看了別人的，回來後自己也要改進，或者是要訂定一個措施嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：還有一些企業，你們就是要去罰款和溝通，還有看如何減少空氣污染，所以不是說我們去了，然後誇獎別人，自己回來卻沒有作為，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，委員，我們很積極地在處理、規劃這個事情，但是例如剛剛講的VOC，其實它涉及到民生所有的產品，委員你每天在用的，像噴髮膠等等，全部都有，這個要管制其實要有方法，不然的話其實會造成很多民眾……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，你的方法是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：我們正在規劃當中，這要一點點時間。"],["麥委員玉珍：每次質詢都是規劃中、執行中、討論中。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們是正在進行當中。"],["麥委員玉珍：都沒有真正地有一個明確的措施。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，委員，我們其實很多事情都積極地在推動當中，但是有些事情涉及到很多的部會，這真的需要一些時間來做溝通，要準備好才能夠推出來。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，說要準備好，也不知道要準備到什麼時候，所以你們未來是不是有計畫加速燃煤電廠減排設備的升級？還有，可不可以淘汰高污染的發電廠？這樣子的話，是不是可以重啟核電呢？有沒有這樣子的可能？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，當然，舊的燃煤電廠基本上污染很嚴重，但是如果它把CCS或是各種的空污減排做下去，其實它也可以乾淨的，但是我們還是希望由煤轉氣、由氣轉煤……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們看到現在歐洲各國都重新啟用核電，但是我們政府的錯誤政策讓全民買單，下個月又說可能會漲電價，所以看起來是非漲不可，部長是不是跟我們的人民承諾不會去漲價？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，電價不是我主管的，我不能夠承諾這個事情啊！"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊，你沒有辦法承諾，但是你們也真的要跨部會去協助、去討論，才不會讓空氣污染影響到大家頭腦鈍鈍，問不好、回答也亂回答。我們沒辦法擋漲價，但是希望要去把關，還有政策要有準確性，不管是室內、室外還有汽車、交通……我們希望大家要買電動車，但是又沒有齊全的設備，因此空氣污染這個部分，也是要跨部會做討論，不是當我們問環境部、交通部、經濟部時，大家就說要去問其他部之類的。各部會請民間要聯合、共同橫向討論，但是各部會卻自己做自己的，到最後又說我們再來問、再來討論，這樣不知道拖到民國幾年。","臺灣的空氣品質關係民眾的健康，每天我們都把肺當成空氣清淨機去吸這樣子的空氣，所以希望我們的空氣要好，別人才會進來臺灣投資、移民，還有安全居住，並且交通的污染也是沒有跨部會，經濟部很多中小企業跟環境部也沒有辦法連結，所以我們希望跨部連結，有一個具體的計畫讓我們知道。我們今年已經有補助預算了，但是都沒有計畫怎麼去執行，現在都在吵刪預算，但是有預算為什麼沒有規劃去做呢？還有，立法院沒有說去刪預算……我們在今年年初的時候審預算，但2024年的預算，我們還沒有審，大家也是花光了，對不對？所以現在希望各部會真正的回到自己的崗位，把自己該做的做好，要規劃跨部會討論，如何才能讓我們的人民住的安心、住的健康，所以這個部分，關於空污治理行動計畫，部長可不可以三個月內提出來，讓我們作為參考？你真正的去做，我們不想聽到各部會都說我們再來討論、我們回去再檢討、我們再來做，我希望要提出具體的、真正的去改善空氣的品質，讓國民享受更健康的生活環境，可以嗎？三個月內。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們現在正在做的就是空品的白皮書，為了未來五年空品改善策略，在第三期管制策略如何做得更好，所以到時候、下個月如果完成之後，我們會再給委員，請委員指教。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，所以下個月你就可以提出具體的計畫給我們，不用三個月？"],["彭部長啓明：一個白皮書，對。"],["麥委員玉珍：你現在就可以提出了，是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對，對，對，我們正努力在做。"],["麥委員玉珍：OK，就等你提出具體的計畫，真正的去執行。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請賴士葆委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}},{"id":"159259","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159259","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb54d128c93e280263ad7e46c29134393ceba1aea0cf818e91e4aeba2417dfd2865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:17:37 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41%"},{"start":103.169,"end":113.743,"text":"那換句話說它已經是成為就你們這一張圖來看它是成為我國VOCS排放量的最大來源之一超過許多的工業"},{"start":115.222,"end":120.726,"text":"污染源的排放也超過了這個移動污染源你看這張表它就是獨樹一格那消費性的商品包括我們大家 而且都跟個人消費行為有關法膠 清潔產品 噴漆 黏著劑 發香劑 建物的塗料等等"},{"start":134.915,"end":151.428,"text":"所以它是跟人民的生活息息相關的緊密的聯合在一起的而且它對個人的健康的風險影響也非常大的而且大多數都是在室內使用的所以呢每年使用這麼大量的上億個的這樣的消費性的商品累計造成的這個不良的影響非常的驚人"},{"start":156.872,"end":175.38,"text":"那如果講環境的話這個人健康影響非常大那講環境我剛剛講了它就是臭氧還有PM2.5的重要的前去物質所以它也是我國空氣品質不良的主要污染物之一可是你們管制了什麼保電有靈觀這下"},{"start":177.017,"end":188.561,"text":"報告委員其實這個問題我去年年底的時候剛好去東京看了一個展看到日本的東京都他就針對這個VOC有一個非常大的攤位就是剛剛委員對啦看了這個展以後對你的影響是什麼對你們在政策上的回饋是什麼"},{"start":193.904,"end":208.859,"text":"隨即就有跟我們大氣師在討論那目前來看的話我們是針對這個塗料的非灰性的這個VOC的進行一個管制但是我們發現還有生活還有很多例如說我們噴髮膠等等的都有在裡面啦"},{"start":209.079,"end":228.095,"text":"你這樣講當然講得很好聽啊就是說你們現在目前納管的就是建物還有工業維護塗料中的三類別和五種塗料你們訂出了VOCS成分的限職規定那包括室內的牆壁啦天花板用的塗料啦和室外的牆壁用的塗料"},{"start":230.077,"end":248.354,"text":"就是你們分類裡面的C1 C2還有C3這種類別但是這樣子有限的管制措施你們的預期可以達到多少的排放量的目標管制你知道嗎包委員就是你上面說的他大概佔了大概十幾二十幾左右沒有啦"},{"start":249.659,"end":260.146,"text":"沒有到那麼高因為我說消費性的這一個總排放量是18.7萬噸消費性商品可是你的管制起來你們預期達到的是18.7萬你這樣預期的管制目標只有2000噸"},{"start":267.711,"end":290.557,"text":"佔建物塗料VOCS排放量的6%然後離有效控制消費性商品VOCS排放量的目標相去甚遠更令人擔心的是我們知道這裡面佔最多比的是一般和其他消費性商品而不只是你這裡管制的工業和建物使用的塗料"},{"start":291.357,"end":304.971,"text":"更多的是跟人民洗洗相關的消費性商品像液體清潔劑法用的化妝品空氣清新劑這種管制的速度非常的慢而且沒有具體的管制標準保證"},{"start":307.262,"end":322.353,"text":"這樣要怎麼辦報告委員因為這個問題我有去跟我們同仁討論過第一個是他的項目非常非常的多元而且是整個體系要去做一個很大的改變所以我們也在真的在蒐集資料說例如說日本是怎麼管制的因為他那個生活環境"},{"start":324.534,"end":341.54,"text":"我先就建物塗料的管制來就教育你因為你已經選擇了也要優先從建物塗料開始先優先去管啊但是你的管理的制度根本是市場導向而不是基於健康環境和科學的數據"},{"start":342.881,"end":357.997,"text":"你人家問你說你是不是經濟部的小弟啊你說你不是小弟可是我們來看你到底是不是小弟從制度面來檢驗嘛你們在108年上8月你還沒上任就公告了建物及工業維護塗料"},{"start":360.299,"end":376.248,"text":"揮發性有機物的存分標準你們第一階段就是優先要針對CNS15080CNS都有標準啦不過它是一個參考而不是一個強制性的嘛那在這個裡面CNS裡面CNS158012類的塗料種類你只要納 你現在只納管ABC"},{"start":382.651,"end":386.241,"text":"然後現在這個DEF這種你通通都沒有有沒有CNS的所有塗料的種類 玉琴有沒有"},{"start":391.53,"end":414.677,"text":"OK 沒關係你只納管了室內牆壁 室內天花板還有室外牆壁用塗料其他的DEFG就是這些通通沒有都沒有納管然後造成大量的VOCS排放到大器當中那你們委外有研究報告喔除了D D類就是室內外的木器 金屬 塑膠用的修飾和保護塗料"},{"start":415.897,"end":438.209,"text":"還有F F就是你們室內外最小模後木材著色料I單一型塗料 K多彩塗料L裝飾效果塗料anyway這些都是建物的這個12大類的塗料建物和工業使用的這個塗料你們的管制是這樣子管制的來看一下"},{"start":440.814,"end":465.202,"text":"你們的水溶性塗料含量你們是去做市場調查喔這些數據歷年來檢測數據統計是去做後市場調查就現有的市場去蒐集資料蒐集資料看得出來你們要研擬一個限值的管制你們最右欄VOC的含量限值建議指你們未來想要的管制方法"},{"start":465.982,"end":482.79,"text":"你去市場收集 比如說第一它第75個 百分之75都是69的單位了那你就會建議說 那我就定為70市場目前69 大多數都69 我就定70市場大部分都是514第二欄 我就建議500那你看一下 如果市場大部分都是692"},{"start":494.557,"end":512.432,"text":"那你就想說 你就趨近於CNS標準變500就是一類的 溶劑型的然後你再看 你定的標準就是G類的溶劑型的市場75%都是668你就定了一個450 跟CNS標準一樣"},{"start":513.533,"end":534.667,"text":"我們的意思是什麼 意思是說 你其實是就市場 牽制於市場然後頂多是訂到CNS標準 那你看歐盟的標準這些歐盟的標準 你們其實遠遠的落後於歐盟的標準看得出來啦 其實都是牽制於這個市場標準"},{"start":536.755,"end":563.07,"text":"那你們在研擬未來D到L的這些VOS限值的時候都是用市場的產品現況來決定你的限值要怎麼定如果這樣的規劃裡面其實你是在反映市場趨勢而不是實際健康的風險你是就市場的這個數據而不是基於健康需求也不是基於環境需求而不是實際的風險上的需求"},{"start":565.325,"end":576.62,"text":"所以你到底是不是經濟部的小弟這樣的做法來讓產業決定標準而不是透過健康數據和科學的數據和環境的需求來決定標準這難道不是對公共健康的妥協嗎"},{"start":584.29,"end":589.433,"text":"這難道不是落入人家對你質疑的是不是經濟部的小弟的這個問號嗎所以你對D類到L類這些塗料的產品VOCS的含量標準你雖然是建議人家委外他是建議你這樣訂你會不會這樣訂還是一個問號喔搞不好你訂的會比委外的建議值還要更寬鬆"},{"start":611.09,"end":625.997,"text":"第一個你到底要不要訂你要期程會是怎麼訂那什麼時候可以完成全面的這個建物和工業塗料的這個維護的這些管制限職的公告你們大概會是什麼期程去規劃"},{"start":627.643,"end":635.629,"text":"報告委員 這個是一個計畫啦我還沒有看到這個計畫的數字對啊 遙遙無期啦你們建議要訂的這個數字我們已經很不滿意了這個是配合產業需求去建議的喔我們已經很不滿意喔但是還是遙遙無期不一定會訂啊現在D到L是0沒有規定 沒有規定 0規定所以現在問你 你到底要不要規定你的起承會是什麼"},{"start":657.299,"end":662.894,"text":"包委因為我還沒有看到這個報告那這個未來是一定會定的未來是未來多久啊未來"},{"start":667.549,"end":692.105,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們初步規劃是會先針對DEF的部分在今年來DEF那你們的標準會照建議的還是還會更寬鬆跟委員報告因為現在資料在收集我們還在討論當中這個都已經幫你們做好收集市場上的產品都是這樣子的了你們是配合市場產品的數據去定限值的啊"},{"start":693.349,"end":704.7,"text":"那個是委外計畫 我知道啊 人家委外研究就去做後市場查驗了 去看了啊那你DEF以外的GHIJKL呢 所以你們是沒有看法你們 保證你今天在這裡回答都不及格沒有擔當 沒有破例 沒有承諾"},{"start":715.325,"end":735.78,"text":"但以前都沒工喔沒有沒有 這個是委外的研究計畫我還沒有看到這個數字然後VOC的管制是我未來一定會做的但是我們真的報告委員因為我只有好 這個只是建物和工業塗料那我要再問你一般性消費產品喔完全沒有管制喔 連排放量都沒有掌握喔消費性商品喔這個消費性商品"},{"start":742.199,"end":767.13,"text":"我剛剛還有一個更重要的數據但是因為我的表格在講的話會拖更多時間我就算我先講一般消費性商品好了這個液體清潔劑 乏用化妝品 空氣清新劑它具有化學活性這種VOCS都具有化學活性在強烈的日照和氮氧化物存在下會進行一連串的光化反應而產生臭氧還有過氧硝酸 乙烯酯"},{"start":767.47,"end":788.399,"text":"就是PAN等二次污染物不但使得空氣品質惡化以外還會刺激呼吸系統導致各種不利健康的影響而且還可能降低這個能見度其實對個人的健康風險其實影響很大那還有這種揮發性的化學物質的揮發有機物的排放量資料為管制重要的工作基礎"},{"start":789.139,"end":812.485,"text":"那你只有唯有掌握了這一些排放量你才有辦法討論到如何進行管制那了解了這一些排放量的主要貢獻產品類別和品項很重要還可以作為減量效益的這個估算的基礎可是沒有母法授權現在也沒有辦法沒有強制申報和登錄那你們知道一年的大概多少排放量你們調查的出來嗎"},{"start":813.869,"end":833.694,"text":"委員這個是我們現在正在處理的啦所以再給我一點時間你們的委外的資料也沒有啊你現在有委外嗎沒有啊有委外的也沒有啊有母法授權嗎沒有啊報告委員目前有委託工業技術研究院在進行相關的調查跟搜集什麼時候開始委託的什麼時候結案報告委員去年開始去年預計什麼時候結案多少經費"},{"start":845.214,"end":850.358,"text":"你提供給我 你現在講不出來我告訴你 隨便在這裡虛以為疑 立違青菜公我有在做啊這講一句話很簡單的啦但是問你比較詳細的 你就說不出來了啦其實有做沒做不知道啦 報告在哪裡不知道啦沒關係 我問你看到一句話你同不同意建立含有VOCS化學製品排放量的申報制度我同意你同意 好"},{"start":870.543,"end":883.693,"text":"那你自己就好好的進行規劃你說去年去看了然後看起來好像很有感然後好像你要進行管制了你也同意要申報制度了可是我就等著看你什麼時候做因為國際都已經在要加嚴管理台灣卻連開始都還沒有開始現在連盤點連估算到底有多少申報多少量都不知道製造多少量輸入多少量不知道什麼都不知道"},{"start":895.962,"end":913.225,"text":"那現在加州的這個一般的VOCS的消費性商品包括這些東西它對現行標準對空氣清淨劑的VOCS含量限制為20到30%而且PY在2023年它在2023年就下降到10%2031年預計要進一步的降到5%然後髮妝用的定型噴霧劑之前是55%"},{"start":921.567,"end":949.176,"text":"那未來要降到2023年就降到了502031年要降到45%那美國的EPA他1996年也就開始管制然後到2013年制定了很多他們都很積極的在管制管制的方式就是透過製造商 輸入商 經銷商要遵守特定的VOCS的含量限值在這種狀況裡面其實美國都已經在用而且他們訂出很具體說我一年要減少幾萬噸"},{"start":950.717,"end":962.624,"text":"很具體所以在這種狀況裡面你要委外的研究裡面其實你們的VOCS的成分我們看那個髮妝用品的部分還有這個空氣清新劑全部都超標全部都超過國外的標準因為台灣沒有標準嘛"},{"start":967.947,"end":986.639,"text":"那你們在研擬這個標準的時候也沒有積極的對接到國際標準你們還是以廠商現有的技術能力市場既有的產品然後為基準去訂出遠低於國際標準的鬆散法規那像這個"},{"start":988.226,"end":999.028,"text":"清潔劑的使用你去看環境部把它分成加壓式和一般式而你看你們去市場檢測就是這個紫色的實際檢測最大值然後最大值最上面你們就定出你們你預計可能想要的他委託的單位建議你們的就是四正方形的紅色的格子格子狀的然後你們定的標準你定的標準都遠比於"},{"start":1016.952,"end":1028.79,"text":"加州的、美國的、香港的都還要更寬鬆許多看起來環境部沒有因應健康需求沒有因應環境需求的或是國際標準而是以業者技術做不到"},{"start":1032.735,"end":1041.945,"text":"現有的市場產品就是這種標準 略低於現有的市場的產品直接評估將標準定在這種30WTE的%所以更無視於國際更嚴格的規定 這個是清潔劑你看下一個是空氣清新劑 你同樣的沒有以國際標準為依據"},{"start":1053.797,"end":1056.639,"text":"都還是就市場現有的產品然後產品的現況定出一個建議的標準然後去折衷就以這個實際檢測的75%的數據將標準定成80WT而不是參照國際趨勢去加嚴我最後要說你這樣子委外的單位跟你建議的"},{"start":1083.208,"end":1098.952,"text":"你這樣的標準制定方式都不是基於健康和環境需求就是單純的配合業者的能力讓現有的產品都不必大幅的修改就能通過檢驗結果導致了台灣的VOCS的管制遠遠落後國際連基本的門檻都沒有辦法提升"},{"start":1104.633,"end":1129.552,"text":"它影響了我們剛剛講清潔的空氣清新劑的不是只有危害到這個是戶外空氣品質它這個都在室內而且不太容易易散國外人平均有80%到90%的時間都是在室內而建築工業塗料它這個是在戶外居多但是建築塗料也一大部分都是在室內屋頂的牆面的"},{"start":1132.785,"end":1156.23,"text":"所以這個大家國際的經驗告訴你說這種消費線產品都在室內不容易易散第二個 這一種管制必須是全面且系統性的管制才能有效所以我們在這種狀況不管制 不納管對個人健康影響很大我在最後問你就是說你擴大管制 加強管制 跟國際標準對接你有沒有這樣的計畫 部長"},{"start":1157.947,"end":1179.808,"text":"包委員這個是我們我去年去完了之後就跟同仁討論去東京剛好看到東京都在做這個事啦然後我有特別交代然後他們其實這個委員提供的資料是我們委外的一個計畫從你們委外計畫來看就知道已經夠糟了啊沒有那個是委外計畫做不是我們做啊所以你的意思是說你訂的標準會比委外計畫訂的更嚴格"},{"start":1183.331,"end":1190.916,"text":"這個我們會來研究好不好但我不是要問你嚴格的問題我要問你期程啊你不要告訴我說你未來會做結果你下台了還沒做"},{"start":1193.826,"end":1216.96,"text":"我們擔心的是這個啊你是不是要針對消費性產品VLCS管制你有沒有短中長期的計畫五年內你有沒有要多少類別消費性產品類別要納管你預期有沒有設定一個減量的目標和效益委員再給我們一點時間內部討論可以嗎好那我下次問你顯然就應該要有答案了"},{"start":1218.001,"end":1219.383,"text":"我第一次拋出這個議題,你說你還沒有看過,那我就讓你有點時間去準備可以,沒問題,謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":763,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時17分）謝謝主席，是不是請彭部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。其實大家今天談很多，但我想要談一個制度面的，想要跟你討論一下有關消費性產品的VOCs排放，你的管制工具不足，其實這樣的空品跟國人健康更是息息相關的。大家都知道，揮發性有機化合物（VOCs）是形成臭氧和PM2.5的重要前驅物質，它會導致空氣品質惡化，也會嚴重的危害國人的健康，但是如果我們不要講固定污染源和移動污染源，我們扣除了固定污染源和移動污染源，根據你們自己的說法和統計，消費性的商品含有VOCs的排放量一年大概有18.7萬噸，但是很驚人的，這樣的排放量是占我國VOCs排放總量的41%，這是你們最新的數據。換句話說，就你們這一張圖來看，它已經成為我國VOCs排放量的最大來源之一，超過許多工業污染源的排放，也超過了移動污染源，你看這張表，它就是獨樹一格。消費性的商品都跟個人消費行為有關，包括髮膠、清潔產品、噴漆、黏著劑、芳香劑、建物的塗料等等，所以它是跟人民的生活息息相關，緊密的聯合在一起，它對個人健康風險的影響也非常大，而且大多數都是在室內使用，因為每年使用這麼大量、上億個這樣的消費性商品，所以累計造成的不良影響非常的驚人。除了對個人健康的影響非常大，如果講到環境的話，我剛剛講了，它就是臭氧還有PM2.5重要的前驅物質，所以它也是我國空氣品質不良的主要污染物之一，可是你們管制了什麼？部長，你們管制了什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實關於這個問題，我在去年年底的時候剛好去東京看了一個展，看到日本的東京都針對這個VOC有一個非常大的攤位，就是剛剛委員所提的生活性……"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！在看了這個展以後，對你的影響是什麼？對你們在政策上的回饋是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：我隨即就跟我們大氣司在討論，那目前來看的話，我們是針對塗料有揮發性的VOC進行管制，但是我們發現生活上還有很多，例如說我們噴髮膠等等的其實都有在裡面。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！你這樣講，當然是講得很好聽，你們目前納管的就是建物還有工業維護塗料中的三類別和五種塗料，你們定出了VOCs成分的限值規定，包括室內牆壁、天花板用的塗料和室外牆壁用的塗料，就是你們分類裡面的C1、C2還有C3這種類別，但是這樣子有限的管制措施，你們預期可以達到多少排放量的管制目標，你知道嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，就是你這個資料上面寫的，它大概占了百分之十幾、二十幾左右，一般消費……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦！沒有到那麼高。"],["彭部長啓明：我說的是塗料。"],["林委員淑芬：我說消費性商品的總排放量是18.7萬噸。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["林委員淑芬：總排放量是18.7萬噸，可是你這樣預期的管制目標只有2,000噸，占建物塗料VOCs排放量的6%，然後離有效控制消費性商品VOCs排放量的目標相去甚遠。更令人擔心的是，我們知道這裡面占最多百分比的是一般和其它消費性商品，而不只是你這裡管制的工業和建物所使用塗料，更多的是跟人民息息相關的消費性商品，像液體清潔劑、髮用的化妝品、空氣清新劑，對這種商品管制的速度非常慢，而且沒有具體的管制標準，部長，這樣要怎麼辦？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，對於這個問題我有去跟我們同仁討論過，第一個，它的項目非常非常的多元，而且是整個體系要去做一個很大的改變，所以我們真的在蒐集資料，例如說日本是怎麼管制的，因為他們的生活比較……"],["林委員淑芬：部長，這樣「無彩」你去日本看了，我先就建物塗料的管制來就教於你，因為你們已經宣布了，要優先從建物塗料開始去管啊！但是你的管理制度根本是市場導向，而不是基於健康、環境和科學的數據，人家問你：你是不是經濟部的小弟啊？你說你不是小弟，可是我們來看你到底是不是小弟，就從制度面來檢驗嘛！在你還沒上任的時候，你們在108年8月就公告了建物及工業維護塗料揮發性有機物的成分標準，你們第一階段就是要優先針對CNS-15080，CNS都有標準，不過它是一個參考，而不是一個強制性的嘛！在CNS-15080裡面這12個塗料種類，你現在只納管A、B、C，然後現在對D、E、F這種通通都沒有。你只納管了室內牆壁、室內天花板還有室外牆壁用塗料，其它的D、E、F、G這一些通通都沒有納管，然後造成大量的VOCs排放到大氣當中，那你們有委外做了研究報告，除了D類，D類就是室內、外的木器、金屬、塑膠用的修飾和保護塗料；還有F類，F類就是室內、外最小膜厚木材著色料；I類是單液型塗料；K類是多彩塗料；L類是裝飾效果塗料。anyway，這些都是建物12大類的塗料，是建物和工業使用的塗料，你們的管制是這樣子管制的。","來，我們看一下，你們對於水溶性塗料含量是去做市場調查，歷年檢測數據的統計是去做後市場調查，就現有的市場去蒐集資料，從蒐集資料看得出來，你們要研擬一個限值的管制，最右欄是VOC含量限值的建議值，是你們未來想要採取的管制方法，你去市場蒐集，比如說D類，D類75%都是69單位了，那你就會建議定為70，市場上目前是69，大多數都是69，所以就定為70。像第二欄在市場上大部分都是514，所以就建議定為500。那你看一下，如果市場上大部分都是692，那你就趨近於CNS的標準變500，就是E類的溶劑型。然後你再看你所定的標準，像G類的溶劑型在市場75%都是668，你就定了450，跟CNS的標準一樣。我們的意思是什麼？意思就是說你其實是就市場、受市場牽制，然後頂多是定到CNS標準。那你看歐盟的標準，和這些歐盟的標準相比，你們其實遠遠落後於歐盟的標準，看得出來啦！其實都是被這個市場標準所牽制。那你們在研擬未來D類到L類的這些VOCs限值的時候，都是用市場的產品現況來決定你的限值要怎麼定，如果是這樣的規劃，其實你是在反映市場趨勢，而不是實際健康的風險，你是就市場的這個數據，而不是基於健康需求，也不是基於環境需求，並不是實際的風險上的需求。","所以你到底是不是經濟部的小弟？採這樣的作法來讓產業決定標準，而不是透過健康的數據、科學的數據和環境的需求來決定標準，這難道不是讓公共健康妥協了嗎？這難道不會讓人家質疑你是不是經濟部小弟而打上問號嗎？所以對於D類到L類這些塗料產品中VOCs含量的標準，雖然你委外研究的報告是建議你這樣定，但是你會不會這樣定，這還是一個問號喔！搞不好你定的會比委外研究報告的建議值還要更寬鬆。第一個，你到底要不要定？你訂定的期程會是怎麼樣？什麼時候可以全面完成建物和工業塗料管制限值的公告？你們大概會照什麼樣的期程去規劃？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是一個計畫，我還沒有看到最後的數字。"],["林委員淑芬：遙遙無期啦！對你們建議要定的這個數值，我們已經很不滿意了，這個是配合產業需求去建議的，我們已經很不滿意喔！但是這還是遙遙無期，不一定會定，現在D類到L類是零，是沒有規定、零規定，所以現在問題是你到底要不要規定？你的期程會是怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為我還沒有看到這個報告，那這個未來是一定會定的……"],["林委員淑芬：你說未來是還要多久？"],["黃司長偉鳴：跟委員報告，目前我們初步規劃是會先針對D、E、F的部分在今年來做……"],["林委員淑芬：你說D、E、F，那你們的標準會照建議的，還是更寬鬆？"],["黃司長偉鳴：跟委員報告，因為現在還在蒐集資料，我們還在討論當中。"],["林委員淑芬：這個都已經幫你們蒐集好，市場上的產品都是這樣子了，你們是配合市場產品的數據去定限值的啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個是委外計畫所做的建議。"],["林委員淑芬：我知道啊！你們委外的研究人員去做後市場查驗，有去看了啊！那你除了D、E、F以外的G、H、I、J、K、L呢？所以你們是沒有看法嗎？部長，你今天在這裡的回答都沒有及格喔！沒有擔當、沒有魄力、沒有承諾，跟以前都不一樣喔！"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，這個是委外的研究計畫，我還沒有看到這個數字，然後VOC的管制是我未來一定會做的，但是我們真的要報告委員，因為我只有兩、三個月的時間處理……"],["林委員淑芬：好，這個只是建物和工業塗料，那我還要再問你一般性消費產品，完全沒有管制，連排放量都沒有掌握喔！關於消費性商品……我剛剛還有一個更重要的數據，但是因為我再講表格的話會拖更多時間，算了，我先講一般消費性商品好了。液體清潔劑、髮用化妝品、空氣清新劑具有化學活性，這種VOCs都具有化學活性，在強烈日照和氮氧化物存在下會進行一連串的光化反應，而產生臭氧及過氧硝酸乙醯酯（PAN）等二次污染物，不但使得空氣品質惡化以外，還會刺激呼吸系統，導致各種不利健康的影響，而且還可能降低能見度，其實對個人的健康風險影響很大。含有這種揮發性化學物質的揮發有機物排放量資料為管制重要的工作基礎，唯有掌握這一些排放量，才有辦法討論如何進行管制，瞭解這些排放量的主要貢獻產品類別和品項很重要，還可以作為減量效益的估算基礎，可是沒有母法授權，現在也沒有強制申報和登錄，你們知道一年大概有多少排放量，你們調查的出來嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，這個是我們現在正在處理的，所以再給我一點時間。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啊！你們的委外資料也沒有，你現在有委外嗎？沒有啊！有委外的也沒有。有母法授權嗎？沒有啊！"],["黃司長偉鳴：報告委員，目前有委託工業技術研究院在進行相關的調查和蒐集。"],["林委員淑芬：什麼時候開始委託的？什麼時候結案？"],["黃司長偉鳴：報告委員，去年開始。"],["林委員淑芬：預計什麼時候結案？多少經費？你再提供給我，因為你現在也講不出來。我告訴你，不要隨便在這裡虛與委蛇立委，隨便說你有在做了，說一句話是很簡單的，但是如果我再問得詳細一點，你就答不出來了，其實有沒有做不知道，報告在哪裡也不知道。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為這個VOCs的量很多……"],["林委員淑芬：沒關係，我只問部長一句話，你同不同意建立含有VOCs化學製品排放量的申報制度？"],["彭部長啓明：我同意。"],["林委員淑芬：好，那你自己就好好的進行規劃，你說去年去看了，看起來好像很有感，你好像要進行管制了，你也同意要建立申報制度，可是我就等著看你什麼時候做，因為國際都已經要加嚴管理，臺灣卻連開始都還沒有開始，現在連盤點、估算到底有多少，申報多少量都不知道，製造多少量、輸入多少量不知道，什麼都不知道。現在加州的一般消費性商品VOCs包括這些東西，現行標準對空氣清淨劑的VOCs含量限制為20到30%，而且在2023年就下降到10%，2031年預計要進一步降到5%；髮妝用的定型噴霧劑之前是55%，2023年就降到了50%，2031年要降到45%。美國EPA於1996年就開始管制，到2013年制定了很多標準，他們都很積極地在管制，管制的方式就是透過製造商、輸入商、經銷商要遵守特定的VOCs含量限值。在這種狀況裡面其實美國已經在用，而且他們很具體訂出一年要減少幾萬噸，所以在這種狀況下，你委外的研究裡面，其實我看到你們在髮妝用品以及空氣清新劑部分的VOCs成分全部都超標，全部都超過國外的標準。","因為臺灣沒有標準，你們在研擬這個標準的時候也沒有積極地對接到國際標準，你們還是以廠商現有的技術、能力、市場既有的產品為基準，去訂出遠低於國際標準的鬆散法規，像清潔劑的使用，環境部把它分成加壓式和一般式，而你們去做市場檢測的時候，紫色的部分是實際檢測最大值，然後在最大值上面你們就訂出你們預計可能想要的，委託的單位建議你們的，也就是正方形的紅色格子狀，你們擬訂的標準都遠比於加州、美國、香港的還要更寬鬆許多。看起來環境部沒有因應健康需求、環境需求或是國際標準，而是以業者技術做不到，現有的市場產品就是這種標準，略低於現有的市場產品，直接評估將標準訂在30wt%，更無視於國際更嚴格的規定，這個是清潔劑。下一個是空氣清新劑，同樣沒有以國際標準為依據，都還是就市場現有的產品現況訂出一個建議的標準，然後再去折衷，以實際檢測75%的數據將標準訂成80wt%，而不是參照國際趨勢去加嚴。","最後，我要說的是委外單位給你的建議，這樣的標準制定方式都不是基於健康和環境需求，就是單純地配合業者的能力，讓現有的產品都不必大幅修改就能通過檢驗，結果導致臺灣的VOCs管制遠遠落後國際，連基本的門檻都沒有辦法提升。我們剛剛講的清潔劑、空氣清新劑不是只有危害到戶外空氣品質，它都在室內，而且不太容易逸散，國人平均有80%到90%的時間都是在室內，而建築工業塗料是在戶外居多，但是建築塗料也有一大部分都是在室內，屋頂的、牆面的，所以國際的經驗告訴你這種消費性產品都在室內不容易逸散。第二個，這種管制必須是全面且系統性的管制才能有效，所以我們在這種狀況不管制、不納管，對個人健康影響很大，我最後再問部長，擴大管制、加強管制與國際標準對接，有沒有這樣的計畫？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是我去年去完了之後就跟同仁討論……"],["林委員淑芬：去完……"],["彭部長啓明：去東京，剛好看到東京都在做這個事，我有特別交代，其實委員提供的資料是我們委外的計畫，是給我們的建議而已。"],["林委員淑芬：從你們委外計畫來看就知道已經夠糟了。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，那個是委外計畫做的，不是我們做的，所以我們會再來看……"],["林委員淑芬：你的意思是你訂的標準會比委外計畫訂得更嚴格囉？"],["彭部長啓明：我們會來研議，好不好？委員給我們一點時間來研議。"],["林委員淑芬：但我不是要問你嚴格的問題，我要問你的是期程，你不要告訴我說你未來會做，結果你下臺了還沒做，我們擔心的是這個。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我不會那麼快下臺。"],["林委員淑芬：針對消費性產品VOCs的管制，你有沒有短、中、長期的計畫，五年內有沒有多少消費性產品類別要納入納管，你預期有沒有設定一個減量的目標和效益？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，再給我們一點時間做內部討論，可以嗎？"],["林委員淑芬：好，我下一次問你顯然就應該要有答案了，我第一次拋出這個議題，你說你還沒有看過，我就讓你有點時間去準備。"],["彭部長啓明：可以，沒問題。"],["林委員淑芬：可以喔？好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一次一定要答復清楚，不然就完了。","現在處理臨時提案，計有5案，請一併宣讀。","一、","案由：","有鑑於環境部官方報告，最新於113年度顯示出我國有37座淨水場驗出致癌及增加猝死機率的PFAS物質，為此環境部雖於同年8月預告將透過罰鍰來管理，但考量於罰鍰上路期乃預告三年後的116年7月才開始，期間為免罰空窗期，徒增民眾暴露於高危害飲用水之風險。爰此，特提案要求環境部應研議加速管理，俟後並於二個月內向衛環委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　陳昭姿","二、","案由：","有鑑於我國某科技大學，最新受檢驗出飲用水供水中，乃含有劇毒且致癌苯物質並超標64倍，且被環境部裁處罰鍰。是以，為求公眾健康之完整維護，特決議應最速辦理裁處對象與所在位置周知作業，並限期於一個月內向本委員會提交應處與改善進度報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　陳昭姿","三、","案由：","有鑑於當前環境部對於中央空氣汙染防制業務，多以細懸浮微粒PM2.5及臭氧03為關注之指標汙染物，是以考量當前空氣作為新興汙染物之介質，在即時監測並公開與防制上應再予加強，爰提案要求應限期於二個月內向衛環委員會提交改善書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　陳昭姿","四、","案由：","有鑑於飲用水條例之施行，事涉國人飲用水水源水質，與公眾飲用水品質，其成效影響國民健康甚深。然而，考量該法自91年以來未有修訂，當中諸多處罰之內容乃沿用86年所修訂之規範，實凸顯環境部法制作業之怠慢，並應積極改善。爰此，特要求應限期於一個月內啟動修法研議作業，俟後並於二個月後向衛環委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　陳昭姿","五、","案由：","有鑑於環境部對我國飲用水的簡易自來水（包含社區自設公共給水設備在內），整整於113年期間的抽驗結果，照官方統計數據顯示竟只有204件，當中更有9個縣市檢驗數掛零，連抽檢都沒抽檢，且還包含六都臺南市，實凸顯環境部儼然躺平把關之不當。爰此，特提案要求限期於一個月內完成加強查驗機制之啟動，並向衛環委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　盧縣一　　陳昭姿"],["主席：我們現在處理臨時提案，應該這5案都有跟提案委員溝通過嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：我們是不是每一個案子說明一下？第1案沒問題。"],["主席：我知道。"],["彭部長啓明：照委員的意見辦理。"],["主席：好。"],["彭部長啓明：第2案也沒有問題，遵照委員的意見辦理。"],["主席：好。"],["彭部長啓明：第3案也沒有問題，遵照委員的意見辦理。"],["主席：好。"],["彭部長啓明：第4案也沒有問題，遵照委員的意見辦理。"],["主席：好。"],["彭部長啓明：第5案有一點意見……"],["王司長嶽斌：我們第5案說明一下。跟委員報告，我們每年都會依照飲用水管理條例跟飲用水……我們會訂定一個飲用水的重點稽查取締計畫。以113年為例，我們自來水就查驗了1.2萬件，另外飲用水設備也查驗了7,000件。至於簡易自來水，我們查驗了204件，最主要的原因是我們有公告列管所謂的簡易自來水，它是要達到一定的規模，包含100戶、500人以上要設有廢水處理設施的設備，所以基本上這樣子的簡易自來水目前列管43處，我們查了204件，基本上幾乎1年就查驗了5次，平均一個簡易自來水設施就查驗了5次，所以不是沒有查驗。","這個部分我們是不是建議文字做這樣子的一個修正？是不是在第三行「照官方統計數據顯示」加一些字，加什麼字呢？就是「達公告列管簡易自來水抽驗竟只有204件」，「當中更有9個縣市」後面我們建議再加幾個文字，就是「因無達公告列管簡易自來水設施檢驗數掛零」，掛零之後從逗號開始到第五行句號的文字我們建議刪除，為什麼這樣說？因為基本上我們是訂有相關的重點稽查取締計畫，而且又督導縣市環保局辦理稽查，所以我們是不是把這些文字刪掉，改成「爰此，特提案要求限期一個月內提供及加強」？也把「完成」兩個字刪除，我們會再來檢討簡易自來水的管理，進一步再來做相關的協調，跟簡易自來水的主管機關，包括水利署，因為水利署那邊也有一個無自來水，就是使用簡易自來水相關的改善計畫，我們會跟它一起來做協調，我們建議是不是做以上文字的修正？再來，我們建議是不是也把「之啟動」三個字刪除？就是「特提案要求限期一個月內提供及加強查驗機制，並向衛環委員會提交書面報告」，我們一個月內找水利署再來針對簡易自來水的管理做一些相關的檢討，以上報告。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，同意。"],["主席：可以啦？"],["陳委員菁徽：可以。"],["主席：好，提案委員也同意，各位有沒有其他意見？如果沒有，我們第5案就照這樣修正通過，1到4案應該大家也都沒有意見，我們就照提案委員的提案通過。好，臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來繼續進行詢答，請麥玉珍委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}},{"id":"159258","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159258","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbd270d818322be734100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e91e3b48d9307feac045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:36:53 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謝謝主席內政部部長有請請劉順寬部長好 莊委好劉部長辛苦了這個今年2月25號我們這個吳世耀委員在大院提出總質詢的時候其實曾經有詢問過您也有詢問過我們卓榮泰院長是否要針對國定假日的這個法案提出修法的對岸的一個版本還是說請向透過行政命令的方式來處理"},{"start":28.445,"end":42.735,"text":"部長那時候的回答是說希望可以維持現狀因為各委員會的版本這剛剛其實都說過了有不同的意見有待整合勞基法修法後的公實已經齊平等等法案的推動要有共識說法也不一樣如果變成法律案會有爭議那當然嘛經過這個雖然喔"},{"start":47.096,"end":76.162,"text":"已經也沒有多久但也經過了一段時間到現在快一個月了請問部長態度有改變嗎你今天還是用一樣的說法來回應大家的我今天的報告就講得非常的清楚我覺得爭議仍然很大但是裡面有一塊我剛剛提到了第一個目的失業主管機關也就是說大家比較在乎的所謂的要不要勞動節那一天全國放假這個議題分成兩個層次第一個在我們的節日的實施辦法裡面勞動節那一天勞動者就是放假"},{"start":77.142,"end":104.839,"text":"不是勞動者也就是說廣泛來講沒有領到沒有用勞保的這些軍公教的人要不要跟著一起放假但是我提到了如果要一起放假的話要有共識這個共識就是要跟人事行政總處大家來交換意見所以院長在聽到我們報告的時候特別提到我們保持開放的態度看用什麼方式來解決但是因為剛剛可能有幾位委員有提到過今年的放假日在去年年底的時候已經公布了"},{"start":105.219,"end":123.997,"text":"包括補班日大家也都執行了像今年的春節就是這樣子那明年的話我們還有一段時間我希望說可以讓它可以和緩大家會有共識出來然後不要變成是朝野對立或是政黨對立的議題所以目前我在回答委員的問題的時候幾乎都是站在這樣的立場做回應我覺得時間有限"},{"start":127.26,"end":145.474,"text":"這個你說不希望這樣子的題目變成朝野的對立也不希望變成政治性的題目這一點本席敬表尊重其實也表達同意但其實在行訴共識的過程之中總要有各個不同的版本來做討論嘛不瞞不長講啦這個在野黨提案的委員數量雖然多但在野黨當然也會做所謂的法案整合嘛"},{"start":145.914,"end":156.141,"text":"所以到進入大體討論甚至到主條討論之前它的版本當然就會再做精簡但是我要問既然我們今天要追尋的是盡量求這件事情的圓滿那麼請問執政黨這一端它會不會有版本這個其實是大家很關心的問題"},{"start":161.844,"end":179.12,"text":"之前曾經有媒體有報導說可能行政院會有所謂的院版請問到底有沒有這樣的規劃因為就我本席了解這個勞團前一陣子也到行政院去陳情嘛所以希望看到有院版的這樣一個機會那如果院版的內容當然就由內政部來做主責嘛你會不會增加放假的天數還是說從頭到尾現在就是沒有院版"},{"start":179.6,"end":200.7,"text":"我們總之要把這件事情釐清一下如果有院版我們早就提供出來給委員參考了也就是說行政院在內部考量的時候呢他變成是所有的部會都要提供他們的意見那院長呢還是保持開放的態度因為我們都知道說這裡面呢除了特定的特殊身份的族群以外還有一些是屬於世代的差距"},{"start":201.821,"end":218.494,"text":"所謂的世代差距的話譬如說年紀比較大的覺得說何必放假那年紀比較輕的就是趕快放假包括228我們是紀念日也把它當成是慶祝228所以事實上就會有點沒有辦法有一個共識出來所以你的意思就是不會有認版也不會提"},{"start":218.834,"end":246.538,"text":"目前為止沒有院版但是我們也就是我們希望維持現狀啦維持現在的實施辦法也就是維持現在的實施辦法剛剛部長喔在講實施辦法的時候當然就是說速度比較快比較有彈性對不對不過我也要提醒部長一個比較殘酷的事實啦我們今天站在這邊當然是要幫勞工朋友講話嘛就是說節日與紀念日的這個實施辦法在以行政命令的層級由行政機關來主管的情況下就本席的了解從來沒有幫勞工增加假日啦砍掉倒是速度挺快的但是都沒有增加嘛"},{"start":246.769,"end":272.748,"text":"抱歉這個不是在節日實施辦法裡面這樣做的我們節日實施辦法勞動節本來就是一個我不是講勞動節我講就是國定假日的天數嘛你現在是不是行政命令可以處理如果今天我們的政府非常有誠意而且很快願意還給勞工七天假你今天行政命令一下去七天假就還來了嘛我還是一再跟各位委員報告沒有所謂的還我勞工七天假這樣的議題至少在行政部門裡面從來不會出現還我勞工七天假因為這是一個政治議題"},{"start":274.249,"end":293.302,"text":"我們不希望說用這個朝野對峙的方式來處理有關勞工放假的議題這不是朝野的問題啦還勞工七天假其實是勞工團體跟很多勞工朋友期待的那個我尊重但是不是行政院的主張我們回到法理上面來講是不是現在透過行政命令的方式你其實就可以增加國定假日的天數其實是對不對"},{"start":294.062,"end":311.922,"text":"但是過去這段時間不一定你又有理由又有意義啊你要紀念什麼你什麼樣的紀念日什麼樣的節日你要講清楚你不能隨便一個你講的是理由對不對你不能隨便一個拜拜隨便一個初一十五就要放假啊我只是要釐清一個事實就是你在有這樣的權限的情況之下基於你的各種理由反正就是沒有增加"},{"start":312.703,"end":327.712,"text":"我們的權限沒有委員所提到的那麼大我們的權限送到行政院去的時候要有很多不同的部會包括人事行政總部甚至包括權序部都要提供給我們意見我們才能把它放下去所以其實政府部門的彈性其實也沒有想像中那麼大"},{"start":328.072,"end":344.575,"text":"所以如果民間尤其是民意調查的數字已經顯示有超過六成的人非常希望增加國定價值的天數真正不贊成增加天數的人大概只有不到百分之二十那在這樣子的一個主流民意的驅動下行政機關還是寸步難行那我只好透過立法院修法的方式來處理"},{"start":345.576,"end":373.317,"text":"報告委員民意調查的部分如果民意調查認為說七成以上的人希望我們的租金補助不要刪除但是我們在立法院裡面還是被刪跟凍啦那我覺得也非常遺憾部長第一個你的預算附議案沒有辦法過關的時候我是沒有辦法處理解凍案的第二個凍結跟刪除好像不太一樣你做過立法委員這我們就不多講不要岔開話題部長你一直講說要凝聚共識對不對針對國定價值的天數也好或者是一些內容跟意涵也好請問從去年啊"},{"start":374.037,"end":393.264,"text":"這個我們的公聽會到了現在內政部有沒有針對各部會也好或行政院這個平台收集了哪些意見開過幾次會什麼層級參加有沒有初步的共識或方向聽起來是沒有有嗎報告委員應該是這樣子就是院長在很多這個大小的會議裡面如果有人是行政總處或者是勞動部的時候都會提到這個問題"},{"start":394.344,"end":401.289,"text":"但是我們在滾動式的調整當中會認為說現在這樣的時間還沒有成熟或是說現在這個時間還沒有共識你居然對外講的話並不是一個好的現象反而會置私欲焚所以我們寧可讓他再長一點的時間來做討論讓他有共識但是我剛有提到我們不希望變成是在野黨或者是執政黨之間的一個政黨的紛爭然後讓他可以好好的落幕"},{"start":422.502,"end":443.563,"text":"部長不希望這個事情再變成政治吵架的一個題目但是我也要如實反映勞工的心聲勞工的心聲都不希望這件事情再只是不管是藍也好綠也好白也好政治人物在選舉時候的承諾但選後沒有任何作為本期今天會去排審這樣的一個法案因為現在之後執行適用的期間是明年不是今年啊所以我們剛剛有提到適用的期間在法條上是可以規定的啊"},{"start":443.683,"end":472.592,"text":"今年的人事行政總署在去年年底的時候已經對外宣告多少放假日還有補班日那是因為現在的所以現在如果這個法律案通過的話不能夠馬上適用你看你行政命令的時候你想執行的事情你就執行的很愉快但是我們想要增加假日的時候你就裹住沒有 按照行政程序我們是按照行政程序法來執行所有的相關規定你要回答我的問題就是剛剛很多委員都講說我們要有我們要有社會共識請問你覺得到什麼樣的程度叫做社會有共識"},{"start":475.963,"end":499.531,"text":"這個放假的這件事情不曉得委員所提的是哪一項沒有就放假比如說天數也好或是哪幾天要放假到底什麼樣的程度叫社會有共識全台灣所有2300萬人一次同意叫有共識還是說其實只要大部分人可以接受他就叫有共識大部分人能夠接受但是我要提一下但是大部分人能夠接受不是完全用這個民粹的想法所謂的民粹的想法我放假越多天越好"},{"start":500.091,"end":517.849,"text":"我今天講你講說怕變成流於民粹這個本席不反對但問題就是因為這樣所以我今天要問你一個標準我們也不希望為了特定團體也不希望為了特定團體然後講還我勞工七天假然後綁架勞工說五月一號要全國放假我們已經講過了五月一號本來全國勞工就放假"},{"start":518.45,"end":530.544,"text":"部長這對這一段時間一直每一次在街頭上大聲疾呼希望可以減少工時讓勞工休息的團體而言你這樣講話實在對他們實在非常傷心老師我剛剛有提到了不要為了特定團體來處理全國放假的事情所以你認為這個事情"},{"start":535.509,"end":539.49,"text":"因為它是需要一個很簡單的我們願意跟他們溝通但是不是用這樣的方式放假多少天不要說勞動團體都這樣想應該是說全國的人認為放假的天數這樣可能不夠我們希望多放假幾天那放什麼節日或放什麼假日我們再來講所以我剛剛有特別提到這是一個層次的問題不要用假日、節日、紀念日然後說一定要放假因為這個差太遠"},{"start":564.774,"end":589.61,"text":"我們現在就要多放31天假部長你不希望用 只是用勞工團體的聲音所以剛剛旭貞委員其實就已經提出了全國的民意調查嘛都還是有六成多人支持啦所以我們說我們保持開放的態度啊我沒有說現在不可以放假啊但是今年已經來不及了今天大家用開放的態度討論其實慢慢慢慢有共識法條還會有後續的審議啦好 大家也會做版本的整合請你做好準備好 部長休息一下我請勞動部次長"},{"start":595.367,"end":596.749,"text":"請勞動部次長這個有人曾經說過七天假不應該跟周秀恩這個議題掛鉤這兩者掛鉤在一起是政黨政治下的權力操作你認同這句話嗎"},{"start":612.031,"end":631.691,"text":"我覺得我們的那個週休二日的問題實際上我剛剛前面已經講在修法20162017年修法之後事實上週休二日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升了所以你覺得這兩件事要不要掛鉤週休二日跟七天假這兩件事要不要掛鉤在一起這話誰講你知道嗎"},{"start":634.156,"end":652.847,"text":"請說這話是你的長官講今天沒有來所以派你代理啊這是我們洪三安部長講的是他以前做立法委員的時候幫勞工講話的時候他說七天假的議題不應該跟週休二日掛鉤啊你不應該因為為了推動週休二日就砍掉七天假嘛這其實就是勞工朋友也是現在工時很長勞工朋友們心中的痛嘛對不對所以他當初有這樣子的一個初衷我都很肯定他"},{"start":653.527,"end":681.901,"text":"所以過去我在勞動部在未完委員會質詢他的時候我也跟他討論過這個問題他說他願意有開放心態來面對至少今天次長你今天的心態也是用開放心態來面對我認為這都是往前走的一個方法所以我蠻贊成這個概念這不應該掛鉤但我要再問也有人講說從來就沒有所謂七天假要不要還的問題因為七天假是沒有落實週休二日的時候馬總統那個時候提出的所以落實的時候就要取消請問這是不是掛鉤這是不是把週休二日跟七天假兩件事掛在一起"},{"start":682.941,"end":697.352,"text":"這要看怎麼看我剛剛已經講了我們在修法以後其實週休日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升了所以到底這句話是不是代表要掛在一起看對不對他說沒有砍七天價的問題因為這個本來就是週休日的配套這是不是就是掛鉤"},{"start":699.09,"end":714.241,"text":"那這句話誰講的你知道嗎請說是你長官的長官叫卓榮泰院長講的好現在問題來我就請你所以我就委屈你一點啦但是現在我們的勞動部部長曾經主張這件事情不要掛鉤行政院長又把這件事情要掛鉤那請問到底是要掛鉤還是不要掛鉤"},{"start":715.253,"end":737.704,"text":"我們覺得還是要站在勞工的實際的工時狀況來考慮而且各行各業的營運模式還有工作狀況都不一樣要通盤檢討所以要站在實際的工時的狀況來考慮回到全民到底台灣的勞工有沒有過勞的狀況我們的上班族需不需要多一點喘息的時間是不是回到這個問題的核心來做處理很好這個其實就是我們排審的原因"},{"start":737.964,"end":758.249,"text":"我們認為就是要因為剛剛不管這個數字是OECD的也好或者是怎麼樣或者是來自人民的感受也好或者是來自民意調查的數據支持也好其實我要透過這場質詢強調的就是大部分台灣的民意是希望增加國定假日的天數的對不對國定假日的強度一定高過於特休啦我本來想要問你你支持週休三日"},{"start":760.107,"end":787.849,"text":"有些歐洲國家在實驗中其實每次有這個話題的時候 台灣的勞工有些都蠻高興的為什麼 因為累嘛 希望多一點時間休息所以週休三日出來的時候 大家說我們會不會試用政府說沒有辦法試用 對不對因為畢竟是一個很大膽的嘗試對不對 很多人就講說那你真的要特休啊可是就很多人跳出來講我特休年資的問題我有看得到吃不到的這樣一個問題所以說為什麼我們如果要讓勞工立刻的可以享受到工時減少 多一點喘息的時間我們要從國定價值下手嘛"},{"start":788.913,"end":816.03,"text":"市長你應該不會反對這樣的看法我剛剛已經有回答過就是讓勞工的工時適度的縮減讓勞工休息增加國定假日之外其實還有就是他的加班工時如何適度的減少那這個就我們的調查有一些特定行業像製造業 運輸倉儲業他的加班工時是在各行業裡面比較長的那這跟他的營運模式有很大關係那這個部分我們也透過各種方式希望能夠把它削減一點"},{"start":816.801,"end":837.121,"text":"這本席在這邊表達一下我們的立場就是說各種方式只要能夠讓台灣的勞工不要再過勞我們都會支持然後你也可以互相搭配沒有問題但我們希望政府有態度如果政府沒有態度那只好立法院先走其實不外乎就是如此而已好不好希望次長也好部長也好好好準備謝謝好 謝謝謝謝牛徐廷召委也謝謝李政次接下來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":788,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時36分）謝謝主席。有請內政部部長。"],["主席：請劉世芳部長。"],["劉部長世芳：召委好。"],["牛委員煦庭：劉部長，辛苦了！今年2月25號吳思瑤委員在院會提出總質詢的時候，曾經詢問過您，也有詢問過卓榮泰院長，是否要針對國定假日法案提出修法的對案版本，還是傾向透過行政命令的方式來處理？部長那時候的回答是希望可以維持現狀，剛剛其實都說過了，因為各委員的版本有不同的意見、有待整合，勞基法修法後的工時已經齊平等等，法案的推動要有共識，說法也不一樣，如果變成法律案會有爭議。雖然沒有多久，但也經過了一段時間，到現在快一個月，請問部長態度有改變嗎？你今天還是會用一樣的說法來回應大家的期待嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我今天的報告就講得非常清楚，我覺得爭議仍然很大，但是裡面有一塊我剛剛提到了，第一個、目的事業主管機關，也就是大家比較在乎的，所謂的勞動節那一天要不要全國放假，這個議題分成兩個層次，第一、在節日實施辦法裡面，勞動節那一天勞動者就是放假，不是勞動者，也就是廣泛來講，沒有用勞保的這些軍公教要不要跟著一起放假？但是我提到了，如果要一起放假要有共識，這個共識就是要跟人事行政總處，大家來交換意見，所以院長在聽到我們報告的時候有特別提到，我們保持開放的態度，看用什麼方式來解決。但是剛剛有幾位委員提過，今年的放假日在去年年底已經公布了，包括補班日，大家也都執行了，像今年的春節就是這樣。明年的話，我們還有一段時間，我希望讓它可以和緩，大家有共識出來，不要變成是朝野對立或政黨對立的議題。目前我在回答委員的問題的時候，幾乎都是站在這樣的立場回應。"],["牛委員煦庭：可以了，因為時間有限。你說不希望這樣的題目變成朝野對立，也不希望變成政治性的題目，這點本席敬表尊重，也表達同意。其實在形塑共識的過程之中，總要有各個不同的版本來討論，不瞞部長講，在野黨提案的委員數量雖然多，但在野黨當然也會做所謂的法案整合，所以到進入大體討論，甚至到逐條討論之前，版本當然會再精簡。但是我要問，既然我們今天要追尋的是儘量求這件事情的圓滿，那麼請問執政黨這一端會不會有版本？這個其實是大家很關心的問題。之前曾經有媒體有報導，行政院可能會有所謂的院版，請問到底有沒有這樣的規劃？因為就本席了解，勞團前一陣子也到行政院去陳情，說希望看到有院版這樣的機會，院版的內容當然就由內政部來主責，你會不會增加放假的天數？還是從頭到尾就是沒有院版？我們總是要把這個事情釐清一下。"],["劉部長世芳：如果有院版，我們早就提供出來給委員參考了。"],["牛委員煦庭：OK。"],["劉部長世芳：也就是行政院在內部考量的時候，變成是所有部會都要提供他們的意見，院長還是保持開放的態度，因為我們都知道這裡面，除了特定的、特殊身分的族群以外，還有一些是屬於世代差距，所謂的世代差距，譬如說，年紀比較大的覺得何必放假，年紀比較輕的就是趕快放假，包括二二八我們是紀念日，也把它當成是慶祝二二八，所以事實上就會有點沒有辦法有一個共識出來。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你的意思就是不會有院版，也不會提嘛，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：目前為止沒有院版，也就是我們希望維持現狀啦！維持現在的實施辦法。"],["牛委員煦庭：也就是維持現在的實施辦法？"],["劉部長世芳：對、對。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛部長在講實施辦法的時候，當然就是說速度比較快、比較有彈性，對不對？不過，我也要提醒部長一個比較殘酷的事實，我們今天站在這邊，當然是要幫勞工朋友講話，紀念日與節日實施辦法以行政命令的層級，由行政機關主管的情況下，就本席的瞭解，從來沒有幫勞工增加假日，砍掉倒是速度挺快的，但是都沒有增加嘛。"],["劉部長世芳：抱歉，這個不是在節日實施辦法裡面這樣做的，我們節日實施辦法，勞動節本來就是一個……"],["牛委員煦庭：我不是講勞動節，我講的是國定假日的天數，你現在是不是行政命令可以處理？如果今天我們的政府非常有誠意，而且很快的願意還給勞工7天假，你今天行政命令一下去，其實7天假就回來了，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：我還是一再跟各位委員報告，沒有所謂的還我勞工7天假這樣的議題，至少在行政部門裡面，從來不會出現還我勞工7天假，因為這是一個政治議題，我剛提到了，我們不希望用朝野對峙的方式來處理有關勞工放假的議題。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，這不是朝野的問題啦！還勞工7天假其實是勞工團體跟很多勞工朋友期待的、民間的議題，好不好？"],["劉部長世芳：那個我尊重、那個我尊重。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，互相尊重。"],["劉部長世芳：但不是行政院的主張。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們回到法理上面來講，是不是現在透過行政命令的方式，你其實就可以增加國定假日的天數，其實是對不對？但是過去這一段時間有沒有增加？沒有嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：不一定，你要有理由、要有意義啊！你要紀念什麼？"],["牛委員煦庭：我們從法理的權力上，就是行政機關可以決定。"],["劉部長世芳：什麼樣的紀念日、什麼樣的節日，你要講清楚，你不能隨便一個拜拜、隨便一個初一十五就要放假啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：你講的是理由，對不對？我只是要釐清一個事實，就是你在有權限的情況之下，基於你的各種理由，反正就是沒有增加，對不對？這是一個事實。"],["劉部長世芳：我們的權限沒有委員所提到的那麼大，我們的權限送到行政院去的時候，要有很多不同的部會，包括人事行政總處，甚至包括銓敘部都要提供給我們意見，我們才能把它放下去。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以政府部門的彈性其實也沒有想像中那麼大，如果民間……"],["劉部長世芳：但是政府部門內部要整合。"],["牛委員煦庭：尤其是民意調查的數字已經顯示有超過六成的人非常希望增加國定假日天數，真正不贊成增加天數的人大概只有不到20%，在這樣主流民意的驅動下，行政機關還是寸步難行，我只好透過立法院修法的方式來處理，所以如果……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，如果民意調查認為七成以上的人希望我們的租金補助不要刪除，但是我們在立法院裡面還是被刪跟凍，我覺得也非常遺憾。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，第一個，你的預算覆議案沒有辦法過關的時候，我是沒有辦法處理解凍案的；第二個，凍結跟刪除好像不太一樣，你做過立法委員，這我們就不多講，不要岔開話題。部長，你一直講要凝聚共識，對不對？針對國定假日天數也好，或者是內容跟意涵也好，請問從去年我們的公聽會到現在，內政部有沒有針對各部會也好或行政院平臺蒐集哪些意見、開過幾次會、什麼層級參加，有沒有初步的共識或方向？聽起來是沒有，有嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，應該是這樣子，院長在很多大小會議裡面，如果有人事行政總處或者是勞動部的時候都會提到這個問題，但是我們在滾動式調整當中，會認為現在這樣的時間還沒有成熟，或是現在這個時間還沒有共識，你對外講的話並不是一個好的現象，反而會治絲益棼，所以我們寧可再長一點的時間來做討論，讓它有共識，但是我剛有提到，我們不希望變成是在野黨或者是執政黨之間的政黨紛爭，讓它可以好好地落幕。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，不希望這個事情再變成政治吵架的題目，但我也要如實反映勞工的心聲，不管是藍也好、綠也好、白也好，勞工的心聲都不希望這件事情只是政治人物在選舉時候的承諾，但選後沒有任何作為。本席今天會排審這樣的法案，就是希望有具體的……"],["劉部長世芳：因為下一次會執行、適用的期間是明年，不是今年啊！所以我們剛有提到還有5、6個月……"],["牛委員煦庭：適用的期間在法條上是可以規定的啊！"],["劉部長世芳：今年的人事行政總處在去年年底的時候，已經對外宣告多少放假日，還有補班日等等這些，所以現在如果這個法律案通過的話，不能夠馬上適用……"],["牛委員煦庭：那是因為現在不是法律位階，是行政命令，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：不可能因為5月1號到了，你就要去適用。"],["牛委員煦庭：你看是行政命令的時候，你想執行的事情，你就執行得很愉快，但是我們講到要增加假日的時候，你就裹足不前。我們不要再討論這個問題……"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，我們是按照行政程序法來執行所有的相關規定。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長、部長，你要回答我的問題，剛剛很多委員都講我們要有社會共識，對放假的這件事情，請問你覺得到什麼樣的程度叫作社會有共識？"],["劉部長世芳：不曉得委員所提的是哪一項？"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，就是放假，比如說天數也好，或是哪幾天要放假，到了什麼樣的程度叫社會有共識？全臺灣所有2,300萬人一致同意叫有共識？"],["劉部長世芳：全臺灣2,300萬人……"],["牛委員煦庭：還是說其實只要大部分人可以接受，它就叫有共識？"],["劉部長世芳：大部分人能夠接受，我要提一下，但是大部分能夠接受，不是完全用民粹的想法，所謂民粹的想法是我放假越多天越好。"],["牛委員煦庭：你講怕變成流於民粹，這個本席不反對，但問題就是因為這樣，所以我今天要問你一個標準，如果今天這個……"],["劉部長世芳：我們也不希望為了特定團體，然後講還我勞工7天放假，綁架勞工說5月1號要全國放假。我們已經講過了，5月1號本來全國勞工就放假，而且已經行之有年。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，這對這一段時間每一次在街頭上大聲疾呼，希望可以減少工時，讓勞工休息的團體而言，你這樣講話讓他們實在非常傷心，好啦！"],["劉部長世芳：不是，我剛剛有提到了，不要為了特定團體來處理全國放假的事宜，因為它是需要一個衡平……"],["牛委員煦庭：你認為這個事情是因為我們被特定團體綁架，所以要妥協全國，意思是這樣嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們願意跟他們溝通，但不是用這樣的方式，放假多少天，不要說勞動團體都這樣想，應該是說全國的人認為放假的天數這樣可能不夠，我們希望多放假幾天，那放什麼節日或放什麼假日，我們再來講，所以我剛剛有特別提到這是一個層次的問題，不要用假日、節日、紀念日，然後說一定要放假，因為這個差太遠，如果按照委員的版本，我們現在就要多放31天假。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，你不希望只是用勞工團體的聲音，剛剛許宇甄委員其實就已經提出全國的民意調查，都還是有六成多的人支持，我希望你認知到這個事實。"],["劉部長世芳：所以我們希望保持開放的態度，我沒有說現在不可以放假啊！但是今年已經來不及了。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，今天大家用開放的態度討論，其實慢慢會有共識，法條還會有後續的審議，大家也會做版本的整合，請你做好準備。部長休息一下，我請勞動部次長。"],["主席：請勞動部次長。"],["李次長健鴻：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：次長好。有人曾經說過7天假不應該跟週休二日這個議題掛鉤，這兩者掛鉤在一起是政黨政治下的權力操作，你認同這句話嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：我覺得週休二日的問題，事實上我剛剛前面已經講了，在2017年修法之後，事實上週休二日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有，所以你覺得這兩件事要不要掛鉤？週休二日跟7天假這兩件事要不要掛鉤在一起？這話誰講的，你知道嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：請說。"],["牛委員煦庭：這話是你的長官講的，今天沒有來，所以派你代理，是洪申翰部長講的，他以前做立法委員的時候、幫勞工講話的時候，他說7天假的議題不應該跟週休二日掛鉤，你不應該為了推動週休二日，就砍掉7天假，這其實就是勞工朋友，也是現在工時很長的勞工朋友們心中的痛，對不對？所以他當初有這樣的初衷，我都很肯定他，所以過去我在勞動部、在衛環委員會質詢他的時候，我也跟他討論過這個問題，他說他願意用開放的心態來面對，至少今天次長，你今天的心態也是用開放心態來面對。"],["李次長健鴻：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：我認為這都是往前走的方法，所以我滿贊成這個概念，這不應該掛鉤。但我要再問，也有人講從來就沒有所謂7天假要不要還的問題，因為7天假是沒有落實週休二日、馬總統那個時候提出的，所以落實的時候就要取消，請問這是不是掛鉤？這是不是把週休二日跟7天假兩件事掛在一起？"],["李次長健鴻：這要看怎麼看啊！我剛剛已經講了，我們在修法以後，其實週休二日的企業家數跟勞工人數都有提升。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以到底這句話是不是代表要掛在一起看，對不對？他說沒有砍7天假的問題，因為這個本來就是週休二日的配套，這是不是就是掛鉤？那這句話誰講的，你知道嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：請說。"],["牛委員煦庭：是你長官的長官，叫卓榮泰院長講的。好，現在問題來了，我就委屈你一點，但是現在我們的勞動部部長曾經主張這件事情不要掛鉤，行政院長又把這件事情要掛鉤，請問到底是要掛鉤，還是不要掛鉤？"],["李次長健鴻：我們覺得還是要站在勞工實際的工時狀況來考慮，而且各行各業的營運模式還有工作狀況都不一樣，要通盤檢討。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以要站在實際工時的狀況來考慮，對不對？回到全民，到底臺灣勞工有沒有過勞的狀況？我們的上班族需不需要多一點喘息時間？是不是回到這個問題的核心來做處理？"],["李次長健鴻：是，沒錯，對。"],["牛委員煦庭：很好，這個其實就是我們排審的原因。"],["李次長健鴻：我們認為就是要……"],["牛委員煦庭：不管這個數字是OECD的也好，或者是怎麼樣，或者是來自人民感受也好，或者是來自民意調查的數據支持也好，我要透過這場質詢強調的，就是大部分臺灣的民意是希望增加國定假日的天數，對不對？國定假日的強度一定高過於特休，我本來想要問你，你支不支持週休三日，支持嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：有一些歐洲國家在實驗中。"],["牛委員煦庭：已經在嘗試了，對不對？其實每次有這個話題的時候，臺灣的勞工有些都滿高興的，為什麼？因為累嘛，希望多一點時間休息，所以週休三日出來之後，大家說我們會不會適用？政府說沒有辦法適用，畢竟是一個很大膽的嘗試，對不對？很多人就講那你增加特休啊！可是就有很多人跳出來講他特休有年資的問題、有看得到吃不到這樣的問題，所以這是為什麼我們如果要讓勞工立刻可以享受到工時減少，多一點喘息的時間，我們要從國定假日下手嘛！次長，你應該不會反對這樣的看法吧？"],["李次長健鴻：委員，我剛剛已經有回答過，就是讓勞工的工時適度縮減，讓勞工休息增加，國定假日之外，其實還有他的加班工時如何適度減少，這個就我們的調查，有一些特定行業，像製造業、運輸倉儲業的加班工時是在各行業裡面比較長的，這跟它的營運模式有很大的關係，這個部分我們也透過各種方式希望能夠把它削減一點。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席在這邊表達一下我們的立場，就是各種方式只要能夠讓臺灣的勞工不要再過勞，我們都會支持。"],["李次長健鴻：是，當然。"],["牛委員煦庭：然後你也可以互相搭配，沒有問題，但我們希望政府有態度，如果政府沒有態度，只好立法院先走，其實不外乎就是如此而已，好不好？希望次長也好，部長也好，好好準備，謝謝。"],["李次長健鴻：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭召委，也謝謝李政次。","接下來我們請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159257","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159257","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb721b540363847691100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e9134d5112c71ed9d465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"11:23:56 - 11:36:38","影片長度":"00:12:42","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T11:23:56+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T11:36:38+08:00","duration":762,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.684093750000001,"end":8.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.72159375,"end":9.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.31971875,"end":16.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.29846875,"end":17.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.66534375,"end":40.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.12159375,"end":84.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.64221875000001,"end":98.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.96909375,"end":111.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.18784375000001,"end":105.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.97221875000001,"end":106.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.71034375,"end":108.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.96284375,"end":116.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.21471875,"end":120.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.56909375000001,"end":120.92346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.97409375000001,"end":122.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.52659375,"end":122.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.97784375,"end":135.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.48659375,"end":142.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.11409375,"end":153.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.71159375000002,"end":160.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.69784375,"end":161.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.41909375,"end":176.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.26909375000002,"end":182.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.55096875,"end":207.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.01971875,"end":213.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.34346875,"end":219.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.03471875000002,"end":219.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.25409375,"end":219.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.76034375,"end":237.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.23471875,"end":235.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.85471875000002,"end":237.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.59721875000002,"end":240.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.60534375,"end":309.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.14721875000004,"end":317.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.82096875,"end":322.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.02721875000003,"end":345.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.44534375,"end":345.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.86721875,"end":345.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.96846875,"end":355.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.99659375000005,"end":376.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.13784375,"end":369.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.29284375000003,"end":384.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.89909375,"end":386.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.43471875,"end":386.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.94096875,"end":386.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.97471875,"end":387.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.90596875,"end":395.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.39534375000005,"end":403.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.66409375,"end":415.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.94909375000003,"end":443.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.26409375000003,"end":425.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.45534375000005,"end":452.28096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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我們請劉部長 謝謝劉部長有請"},{"start":17.917,"end":27.38,"text":"我想請教部長民進黨執政後取消國定的七天假也象徵勞工工時過長政府在制定政策時漠視勞工權益勞工休假削減並不會減少"},{"start":41.295,"end":62.441,"text":"並不會真正的促進經濟的發展而是代表的反而會減少這些國人出門消費的一個時間那我們根據勞動部的統計在112年的台灣受僱勞工的總工時是2019.6個小時跟OECD的39個主要國家相比的話我們是大概排名第五"},{"start":63.041,"end":81.975,"text":"那鄰近國家不管是日本的1637個小時韓國的1874個小時還有OECD國家的平均的1742個小時我們台灣的勞工特休假大概跟國定假日加起來大概有20天也遠低於日本的26天韓國的30天"},{"start":84.877,"end":97.89,"text":"還有歐美的28至60天以及伊朗的53天所以我想部長這些數據都告訴我們勞工的工時明顯過長而收價的權益也明顯不足您是否認同"},{"start":99.448,"end":116.622,"text":"呃 報告委員有關工時過長的部分不是由我業務主管單位的部分那我們是不是請李正次好嗎我們是在有關紀念日跟節日的部分要不要放假的問題好那我剛剛有特別提到五一勞動節現在就是我們的放假日只是針對全國勞工好我們是不是要不然請李正次來回答這個部分謝謝委員 委好你好"},{"start":124.028,"end":152.476,"text":"曾氏對 您認不認同我們現在我剛剛所講的現在的勞工的工時明顯的過長因為跟其他的OECD的主要國家比我們其實39個國家我們排名第五那這個部分的話請問你認不認同我們的這個勞工的工時過長而且為什麼勞工要爭取這個收國定假日是 謝謝委員吹噓那個如果跟OECD39個國家來比的話確實台灣勞工的年總工時是比較長的我們還是有很大的努力空間 對"},{"start":154.292,"end":181.503,"text":"對 所以您也贊成我們應該要增加勞工的恢復他們七天假的國定假日嗎我認為國定假日的調整它涉及各行各業的營運模式工作型態都不一樣所以要通盤的討論事實上我們認為根據我們保安部的調查國定假日的調整可能是一種途徑可是最重要是加班工時我們必須要有一些行業它的加班工時是比較長的"},{"start":183.444,"end":209.325,"text":"這個應該已經討論很久那如果再這樣無止境的討論下去這個議題當然不會有共識我是覺得勞動部是不是應該有更積極的作為去看哪些行業他們的這個部分可以用什麼方式來解決重點是要解決勞工工時過場的問題那增加他們休假我想這個應該是只是恢復我們過去的國家的七天假對於勞動部來說應該是極力贊成才對我們認為那個通盤考量之後這確實有討論的空間確實"},{"start":211.687,"end":236.158,"text":"可是討論多久了還要討論多久這個因為是我們大院的這個討論我們一定會那我覺得勞動部應該有積極的態度提出相關的數據來去證明我們的勞工的工時確實過長否則的話說實在您站在這邊我有點搞不清楚你到底是勞動部的政策還是經濟部的政策我們勞動部不是應該站在勞工的立場為他們爭取相關的權益嗎"},{"start":237.779,"end":244.846,"text":"我們勞動部一定是站在勞工的權利之下所以我覺得不要再用這種說我們還要再討論沒有共識相關的這個說法應該是要積極的去處理積極的提出相關的政治那為什麼你知道為什麼這個勞工希望能夠再恢復起點價嗎雖然我們有特休假可事實上我們的特休假依據我們勞動部的113年勞工生活跟就業狀況的調查報告"},{"start":262.822,"end":291.002,"text":"企業對於未休完的特休假有40.5%採取折發工資也就是說他們根本沒辦法休息然後台灣平均勞工的這個有14.7天的特休可實際平均休假才8.3天那尤其是25到34歲的青年勞工特休假只有10.4天但真正休的只有5.4天所以特休假對於很多勞工來說其實是看得到 休不到"},{"start":291.622,"end":320.473,"text":"所以只有國定假日才有辦法讓他們真正的休假這也是為什麼我們今天在這邊要探討要恢復這七天甚至我想到底幾天大家都還可以來探討但重點是恢復國定假日我覺得這個是對現在勞工的權益很有必要來增加的各位說明勞基法它的修正之後特休假排駕權是在勞工手上所以勞工可以自己來決定要不要特休或特休幾天那我們勞務部一場"},{"start":321.213,"end":343.461,"text":"這次你應該不會沒有聽過說很多勞工來投訴說事實上他們這些特休假有時候想休的時候是僱主不同意甚至有時候是用情熱的方式告訴你說因為你們部門人數少如果你休可能會造成其他員工的這樣子的一個工作的負擔增加所以呢用這種情熱的方式也不讓他們休假你應該有聽過吧有聽過那這時候"},{"start":345.982,"end":368.928,"text":"這個就是老計法的單數就如果雇主認為有營運困難那就要徵求勞工的協商跟同意但是基本上排價權還是在勞工手上當然還是在勞工手上可是我剛剛跟你講的那個數據是你們統計的為什麼實際上14.7天只有8.3天的休假絕對我想不是勞工大家都我一定要來加班絕對不是這樣一定是被要求的"},{"start":369.508,"end":385.468,"text":"所以我覺得唯有增加國定假日菜讓他們能夠真正能夠休假這是今天我想我們排案主要來審核這個法案的主要原因還是希望勞動部能夠站在我們這個所有廣大勞工的立場那接下來我是不是再請一下劉部長 謝謝劉部長有請"},{"start":395.183,"end":415.115,"text":"剛剛我們有提到我們針對特休的部分事實上勞工真的很多是看得到休不到所以卓院長已經特別有講過說假日的調整去符合國家意義符合全國的自信請問一下內政部有沒有研究如果要增加國定假日可以增加在哪幾天"},{"start":416.628,"end":437.789,"text":"很抱歉那個院長他在行政院的質詢的時候是有特別提到第一個我們保持開放的態度那要增加放假的天數是怎麼樣的增加法那我剛在很多委員的垂詢的時候就有特別提到因為我們26個委員所提到的部分我們累計出來有31種不同的假日"},{"start":438.55,"end":452.026,"text":"那所以很難做一個統合性不可能每一天都放假不可能提高到說我們放假31天那到底哪一個才是最好其實我們也必須要凝聚有朝野的共識還有我認為公司部門也必須要有共識對 上個會期我們已經開過公聽會了是的"},{"start":456.892,"end":471.602,"text":"那請問一下內政部針對剛剛你講我們的委員大概目前有31個希望放假的天數那基本上內政部有沒有研究說大概有哪幾天是一定可放或是大家基本上的共識有沒有哪幾天"},{"start":472.562,"end":495.71,"text":"我們要尊重相關部門現在我們兩個諮詢的對象或是研議的對象一個當然就是行政院的人事總署一個當然就是勞動部目前看起來這兩個部會裡面跟內政部要達到一個共識但是裡面還有差一步就是各個委員之間也必須要有一個共識的版本出來那我們才能夠講否則會變成我想今天做完這個諮詢之後大家一定"},{"start":499.651,"end":516.922,"text":"又可以共同來去研究出來很多事情不會每一件都至愛難行我們一定可以想辦法來去做到所以我想請教一下部長為了肯定教師節為教育事業所做的貢獻跟努力請問您贊不贊成教師節要恢復為國定假日"},{"start":519.764,"end":545.721,"text":"包括委員教師節要恢復成國定假日是放假日啦齁那包括那個委員也提到說可能叫孔子誕辰紀念日喔那另外一個是民進黨的黨慶那我是覺得說這樣子放下去的話人家會好像是我們為了自己在做放假可是我們有考慮到不是喔我們不曉得民進黨的黨慶是9月28我們各種不同的聲音請問你知道國民黨的黨慶是幾號嗎不知道一般人不知道對啊所以我們也不知道不是我是說我們從不會得到的訊息"},{"start":548.283,"end":575.394,"text":"但是這裡面會影響到偏鄉教師跟學校的受教權偏鄉學生的受教權的問題如果沒有好好去解決這塊問題的話你要全國放假也是有個困難我想每一個法案或是每一個政策提出一定有很多需要去溝通去努力執行的地方那我相信以劉部長您是來自於民意代表的身份應該有很多的相關的"},{"start":576.695,"end":592.253,"text":"這個陳情也都讓您知道有很多解決的方法這方面我是對你有信心的你一定有辦法能夠解決另外就是根據今年的就是2025的民生議題的調查我們有個民調顯示就是支持還給勞工7天假有56.7%不支持的只有19.3%"},{"start":596.518,"end":613.241,"text":"24%是沒有意見其中支持勞工節全民放假有66.3支持教師節成為國定假日的有64.3支持光復節的有64.1支持行限紀念日的恢復國定假日有65.4所以部長您可以看到"},{"start":613.741,"end":639.817,"text":"都有近三分之二的國人支持要放假那我是覺得針對這個部分是不是我們可以大家一起來討論不一定一次就放7天假我們要到底放幾天假我覺得這個可以討論而且當然現在有講到說對經濟的層面影響很大影響勝據剛剛在您的報告裡可是事實上所謂的影響勝據是多少就四個字而已並沒有真正的數據也是希望說我們大家如果真的會影響的話影響的數據是多少大家再提出來討論"},{"start":643.479,"end":657.55,"text":"那因為今天的時間的關係可能要麻煩劉部長針對這個部分尤其是我不好意思我看一下最後一個表格您看一下因為這是我們針對歐洲國家跟亞洲國家各位您可以看到的不管是歐洲國家"},{"start":658.732,"end":677.043,"text":"他的這個年假有30天以上可是他的這個GDP來說也比我們高很多然後另外呢這個我們看到日本的法定假日比台灣多8天那他GDP是台灣的5.23倍那韓國也比台灣多12天的假期他的GDP也是台灣的2.13倍"},{"start":678.624,"end":694.682,"text":"所以由此可見假期的多寡並不是影響經濟表現的關鍵因素所以這個部分可能要請我們的內政部我們大家再來想好好的想辦法怎麼來增加國定假日讓我們的勞工不會產生過勞這樣子一個狀況那請問一下部長您認同這個"},{"start":699.189,"end":718.577,"text":"這個收價並不會真正影響經濟成長的這個說法嗎我剛已經有提過了你所謂的總體經濟還是部分的我剛講過就是說小規模的尤其是中小企業界以下他們對於放假日增加出來會增加出的勞動成本是一個比較難估算的部分那這些人數也不少"},{"start":718.837,"end":746.71,"text":"因為我們知道說中小企業在臺灣大概也是有好幾十萬以上那這些人的聲音反而我們不容易聽到所以我們從上一次10月23在內政委員會裡面所提到的這些中小企業界的聲音我們也要把它考量在內我相信要考量當然支持勞動部但是我們全國勞工有845萬人所以我覺得但是我剛有提到5月1號本來全國勞工都放假只是軍公教沒有放假"},{"start":747.21,"end":758.284,"text":"所以我們要解決的是跟勞工要一起放假的問題不只討論勞工節我們現在是討論七天假所以還是要麻煩部長我們大家共同用智慧來去解決這個問題謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":730,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（11時24分）謝謝主席，請劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員你好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長早。我想請教部長，民進黨執政之後取消了國定七天假，象徵著現在勞工的工時過長，同時我們也看到政府在制定政策的時候，其實漠視我們勞工的權益。其實勞工的休假縮減並不會真正促進經濟發展，反而會減少國人出門消費的時間。根據勞動部的統計，在112年臺灣受僱勞工的總工時是2,019.6個小時，跟OECD的39個主要國家相比的話，我們大概是排名第五，比鄰近國家，不管是日本的1,637個小時、韓國的1,874個小時，還有OECD國家平均的1,742個小時還高。而臺灣的勞工特休假跟國定假日加起來大概有20天，也遠低於日本的26天、韓國的30天、歐美的28至60天以及伊朗的53天。部長，這些數據都告訴我們，勞工的工時明顯過長，而休假的權益也明顯不足，您是否認同？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，有關工時過長的部分，不是我們的業務主管……"],["許委員宇甄：我們是不是請李政次？"],["劉部長世芳：我們是主管有關紀念日跟節日要不要放假的問題。我剛剛有特別提到，五一勞動節現在就是我們的放假日，只是是針對全國勞工。"],["許委員宇甄：要不要請李政次來回答這個部分？謝謝。"],["李次長健鴻：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：政次，您認不認同我剛剛所講的？現在勞工的工時明顯過長，因為跟其他OECD的主要國家相比，在39個國家當中，我們排名第五，關於這個部分，請問你認不認同我們勞工的工時過長？而且為什麼勞工要爭取休國定假日？"],["李次長健鴻：謝謝委員的垂詢。如果跟OECD的39個國家來比的話，確實臺灣勞工的年總工時是比較長的，我們還是有很大的努力空間。"],["許委員宇甄：對，所以您也贊成我們應該要恢復勞工七天國定假日嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：我認為國定假日的調整涉及各行各業的營運模式、工作型態都不一樣，所以要通盤討論，事實上根據勞動部的調查，國定假日的調整可能是一種途徑，可是最重要的是加班工時，有一些行業的加班工時是比較長的。"],["許委員宇甄：這個應該已經討論很久了，如果再這樣無止境地討論下去，這個議題當然不會有共識。我是覺得勞動部是不是應該要有更積極的作為，去看哪些行業可以用什麼方式來解決，重點是要解決勞工工時過長的問題，增加他們休假只是恢復我們過去國定假日七天假，對於勞動部來說，應該是極力贊成才對。"],["李次長健鴻：我們認為通盤考量之後，確實是有討論的空間。"],["許委員宇甄：可是討論多久了，還要討論多久？"],["李次長健鴻：因為涉及我們大院的討論，我們一定會……"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得勞動部應該要有積極的態度，提出相關的數據來證明我們勞工的工時確實過長，否則說實在的，你站在這邊，我有點搞不清楚你到底是勞動部的政次，還是經濟部的政次？勞動部不是應該站在勞工的立場為他們爭取相關的權益嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：當然，勞動部一定是站在勞工的權益上。"],["許委員宇甄：所以我覺得不要再用這種我們還要再討論、沒有共識等相關的說法，應該是要積極地去處理、積極地提出相關的政策。你知道為什麼勞工希望能夠再恢復七天假嗎？雖然我們有特休假，可是我們的特休假，依據勞動部113年勞工生活跟就業狀況的調查報告，企業對於未休完的特休假，有40.5%採取折發工資，也就是說，他們根本沒辦法休息。然後臺灣勞工平均有14.7天的特休，可是實際平均休假才8.3天，尤其是25到34歲的青年勞工，特休假只有10.4天，但真正休的只有5.4天，所以特休假對於很多勞工來說，其實是看得到休不到的。所以只有國定假日才有辦法讓他們真正地休假，這也是為什麼我們今天在這邊要探討恢復這七天假，甚至到底要幾天，我想大家都可以來探討，但重點是恢復國定假日，對現在勞工的權益來說，這個是很有必要增加的。"],["李次長健鴻：跟委員說明，勞基法修正之後，特休假的排假權是在勞工手上，所以勞工可以自己來決定要不要特休或特休幾天。站在勞動部的立場，這個設計是鼓勵勞工……"],["許委員宇甄：政次，你應該不會沒有聽過很多勞工來投訴說，事實上他們這些特休假，有時候想休的時候是雇主不同意，甚至有時候是用情勒的方式告訴你說，因為你們部門人數少，如果你休可能會造成其他員工工作的負擔增加，所以就用這種情勒的方式不讓他們休假。你應該有聽過吧？"],["李次長健鴻：有聽過，這時候就適用勞基法的但書，如果雇主認為有營運困難，就要徵求勞工的協商跟同意，但基本上排假權還是在勞工手上。"],["許委員宇甄：當然是在勞工手上，可是我剛剛跟你講的那個數據是你們統計的，為什麼實際上14.7天只有8.3天的休假？我想不是勞工都認為一定要來加班，絕對不是這樣，一定是被要求，所以我覺得唯有增加國定假日，才能讓他們真正能夠休假。這是今天我想我們排案審核這個法案的主要原因，還是希望勞動部能夠站在廣大勞工的立場。","接下來我再請一下劉部長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請劉部長。"],["劉部長世芳：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛我們有提到，針對特休的部分，事實上，勞工真的很多是看得到、休不到，所以卓院長已經特別講過，假日的調整要符合國家意義、符合全國的一致性。請問一下，內政部有沒有研究，如果要增加國定假日，可以增加在哪幾天？"],["劉部長世芳：很抱歉！院長在質詢的時候有特別提到，第一個、我們保持開放的態度，那要增加放假的天數是怎麼樣的增加法？我剛在很多委員垂詢的時候就有特別提到，因為26個委員所提到的部分，累計出來有31種不同的假日，所以很難統合，不可能每一天都放假，不可能提高到放假31天。到底哪一個才是最好？其實我們也必須要凝聚朝野共識，還有我認為公私部門也必須要有共識。"],["許委員宇甄：上個會期我們已經開過公聽會，請問一下針對剛剛你講的，目前委員提案希望放假的天數大概有31天，基本上內政部有沒有研究大概有哪幾天一定可放，或是大家基本上的共識？有沒有哪幾天？"],["劉部長世芳：我們要尊重相關部門，現在我們有兩個諮詢的對象或是研議的對象，一個當然就是行政院的人事總處，另一個當然就是勞動部。目前看起來，這兩個部會跟內政部要達到一個共識，但是裡面還差一步，就是各個委員之間也必須要有個共識的版本出來，我們才能夠講，否則會變成……"],["許委員宇甄：共識版本，我想今天質詢完之後，大家一定可以共同來……"],["劉部長世芳：不一定，我聽很多委員的看法都不相同。"],["許委員宇甄：我覺得很多事情不會每一件都窒礙難行，我們一定可以想辦法來做到。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：我想請教一下部長，為了肯定教師為教育事業所做的貢獻跟努力，請問您贊不贊成教師節要恢復為國定假日？"],["劉部長世芳：教師節要恢復成國定假日是放假日，包括委員也提到可能叫孔子誕辰紀念日；另外一個是民進黨的黨慶。我覺得這樣放下去的話，人家會覺得我們好像是為了自己在放假……"],["許委員宇甄：我們不曉得民進黨的黨慶是9月28日。"],["劉部長世芳：不是，我們有考慮到……沒有，我們各種不同的聲音……"],["許委員宇甄：請問你知道國民黨黨慶是幾號嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：不知道。"],["許委員宇甄：一般人不知道，對啊！所以我們也不知道民進黨的黨慶。"],["劉部長世芳：不，我是說我們從各方得到的訊息。"],["許委員宇甄：不會啦！不會覺得你們自肥。"],["劉部長世芳：但是這裡面會影響到偏鄉教師跟學校的受教權，如果沒有好好解決偏鄉學生受教權這塊問題的話，要全國放假也是有個困難，然後我們有綜合整理……"],["許委員宇甄：我想每一個法案或是每一個政策提出，一定有很多需要去溝通、努力執行的地方，我相信以劉部長來自於民意代表這樣的身分，應該有很多相關的陳情，也都讓您知道有很多解決的方法，這方面我是對你有信心的，你一定有辦法能夠解決。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝，我們來努力。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，根據今（2025）年的民生議題調查，即有個民調顯示，支持還給勞工7天假的有56.7%，不支持的只有19.3%，24%沒有意見。其中，支持勞動節全民放假有66.3%，支持教師節成為國定假日的有64.3%，支持光復節的有64.1%，支持行憲紀念日恢復國定假日的有65.4%，所以部長可以看到，都有近三分之二的國人支持要放假。針對這個部分，大家是不是可以一起來討論？不一定一次就放7天假，到底要放幾天假，我覺得都可以討論。當然現在有講到對經濟的層面影響很大、影響甚劇，剛剛在您的報告裡有提到。事實上，所謂的影響甚劇是多少？就四個字而已，並沒有真正的數據，如果真的會影響的話，影響的數據是多少，大家再提出來討論。今天因為時間的關係，可能要麻煩劉部長針對這個部分，尤其是……不好意思，您看一下最後一個表格，這是我們針對歐洲國家跟亞洲國家的統計，歐洲國家的年假有30天以上，可是GDP比我們高很多。另外，我們看到日本的法定假日比臺灣多8天，它的GDP是臺灣的5.23倍。韓國也比臺灣多12天的假期，它的GDP也是臺灣的2.13倍。由此可見，假期的多寡並不是影響經濟表現的關鍵因素，所以這個部分可能要請內政部跟大家再來好好想辦法，怎麼增加國定假日，讓勞工不會產生過勞的狀況。請問一下部長，您認同休假並不會真正影響經濟成長的這個說法嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我們剛剛已經有提過了，你所謂的總體經濟還是部分的，我剛講過就是小規模的，尤其是中小企業界以下，他們對於放假日增加會增加出的勞動成本，是一個比較難估算的部分，這些人數也不少。因為我們知道中小企業在臺灣大概有好幾十萬以上，這些人的聲音我們反而不容易聽到，所以從上一次、10月23日在內政委員會所提到這些中小企業界的聲音，我們也要考量在內。"],["許委員宇甄：我相信你要考量。"],["劉部長世芳：當然支持勞動部……"],["許委員宇甄：但是全國勞工有845萬人，所以我覺得大家要共同來……"],["劉部長世芳：但是我剛剛有提到5月1號，本來全國勞工就都放假，只是軍公教沒有放假，所以我們要解決的是軍公教跟勞工要一起放假的問題。"],["許委員宇甄：我們今天不只討論勞工節，現在是討論7天假，所以還是要麻煩部長，大家共同用智慧來解決這個問題，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員。"],["主席（許委員宇甄代）：請牛煦庭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159256","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159256","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb34e0352cdf71d4aa100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e9128bce2618ac0fdaa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"11:15:07 - 11:23:50","影片長度":"00:08:43","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T11:15:07+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T11:23:50+08:00","duration":523,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.156593750000001,"end":8.552843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.931593750000001,"end":16.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.74971875,"end":18.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.49221875,"end":21.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.96846875,"end":25.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.17034375,"end":29.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.034718750000003,"end":32.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.34221875,"end":34.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.50659375,"end":36.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.05471875,"end":43.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.28159375,"end":46.268468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.572218750000005,"end":48.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.69846875,"end":62.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.99159375000001,"end":63.649718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.74659375,"end":71.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.59784375000001,"end":76.42409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.52096875000001,"end":80.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.64721875000001,"end":79.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.68096875,"end":105.29721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.53221875,"end":88.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.10284375,"end":129.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.86721875,"end":140.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.48159375,"end":143.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.65409375000002,"end":144.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.98284375,"end":146.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.16846875000002,"end":146.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.60721875000002,"end":146.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.77596875,"end":146.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.97846875000002,"end":147.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.24409375000002,"end":152.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.82596875000002,"end":151.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.85096875000002,"end":154.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.98159375,"end":157.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.06971875000002,"end":171.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.54409375,"end":184.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.37346875,"end":185.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.01034375,"end":186.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.78659375,"end":189.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.21221875,"end":190.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.81971875000002,"end":192.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.91221875000002,"end":194.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.30846875,"end":199.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.84784375,"end":202.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.96971875000003,"end":206.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.54284375,"end":208.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.14596875,"end":210.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.68971875000003,"end":225.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.22784375,"end":235.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.58096875,"end":238.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.91346875000002,"end":240.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.15784375,"end":241.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.77784375000002,"end":246.490343750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謝謝主席 我們請劉部長部長有請來 文委也好部長早安 部長"},{"start":17.762,"end":35.948,"text":"部長應該很多人會拿你以前擔任立法委員期間面對勞基法二修時的作為來做這一次還給勞工七天假的修法評斷本席認為觀察一個政治任務需要長時間本席發現您在擔任內政部長期間"},{"start":37.188,"end":61.349,"text":"內政部從2025年開始要率先落實提升內政部所屬機關以勞務承攬進駐員工的薪資標準包括約僱約聘漁農人員及勞務承攬進駐員工像是國家公園以及所屬所屬轄區的清潔人員維護人員等等他的月薪要提高最低工資的1.1倍也就是3.1萬元起對吧"},{"start":64.793,"end":74.827,"text":"部長這個是您響應了政府作為加薪引擎的政策這可以代表部長您是相當重視勞工的權益所以請部長您回想一下您當初針對這個加薪的行為你說過什麼樣的話"},{"start":78.234,"end":105.14,"text":"我一點忘記但是知道這件事情保證基層員工的權益是政府義不容辭的責任薪資的提升是一項基本的尊重這個精神非常重要我們可以把勞基法修二的那一塊翻頁既然內政部你有點重視我們勞工的權益我們來談談為什麼要放這七天假我想這絕對不是勞動部或經濟部的事情內政部也可以有自己的態度"},{"start":107.145,"end":126.663,"text":"我們從去年2024年12月開始 我們勞動部揭露這個國際工時比較中台灣2023年的人均工時達到了2020個小時是全球第五高 亞洲第二高 我們亞洲僅次於新加坡我們從法定的工時來看 台灣跟日韓一樣都是單週40個小時新加坡是單週44個小時"},{"start":129.946,"end":150.974,"text":"看起來我們台灣的法定工時沒有比別人差但差別出在哪裡就是在有薪假的規定上面群部長我們國家的國定假日是幾天然後另外我們最喜歡比較的日本跟韓國他們又是幾天國定假日我們的國定假日的放假日是幾天"},{"start":153.939,"end":171.418,"text":"台灣是十二天 韓國日本是十六天跟十五天我先提醒這個就是在起點的相當不同因為除了跨國間的國定價值不同以外還有特休的差異像在年資滿十五年之前台灣的特休價基本都少於日韓"},{"start":172.871,"end":198.821,"text":"年資只有在滿三年或滿四年大概是贏日本兩天有些人會認為說只要年資夠高我們團的特休就高到三十天就明顯勝於日韓了對不對但關鍵因素是什麼我想我們的勞工可不可以在一個工作重疏這是第一個第二個不讓你擔任過立委不讓你的幕僚也就是國會的助理請問他們換了新老闆之後他特休的年假可以累積嗎"},{"start":199.932,"end":210.074,"text":"另外台灣又是中小企業為主台灣中小企業 你知道中小企業的平均壽命是多長嗎我跟你們講一下這兩個第一國會助理的部分"},{"start":212.654,"end":237.431,"text":"我是不是可以請勞動部來回應一下因為有關於勞工放假的部分我們都按照這個規矩不過黃委員所提到說我們內政部在去年年底的時候為了提高我們有一些基層的工作人員的一個費用很抱歉我已經跟他們道歉過了因為我們的114年的預算是把它編在業務費裡面已經被刪跟凍掉了我們今天就我們的學姐來討論"},{"start":243.474,"end":265.578,"text":"國會助理的特休假累積並沒有這個規定就是說要看立委本人他要不要讓他休同樣依據我們經濟部中小企業處來統計台灣中小企業的平均壽命是13年你怎麼做滿15年所以這不可能所以我們將法定工時國定假日特別休假轉換成年總工時的時候而且並依照我們年資來計算的話"},{"start":269.545,"end":294.132,"text":"韓國他入職的第一年他的總工時是1840個小時為什麼他會低於平均因為他第一年就給15天的特休假然後而後是逐步下降那日本入職第一年是平均是1872個小時因為他第一年的年休假只有10天但是隨即快速下降所以在年資滿了7年之後他的年總工時就低於1800個小時"},{"start":296.343,"end":318.675,"text":"因為國定假日少然後我們初入職的特休低於日韓所以台灣勞工入職前兩年的年總工時是在1900小時以上所以年資三到九年之間甚至停滯在1860個小時以上所以你要等到年資滿了九年之後才會逐步下降所以台灣的次度工時在入職前十年"},{"start":321.016,"end":338.526,"text":"每年的平均是比日本多出52個小時比韓國多出51.2個小時那這50多個小時代表什麼概念就是說如果我們把七天假加進來台灣的第一年之公者的這個制度公時才能夠真正的跟日韓並駕齊驅"},{"start":340.367,"end":353.291,"text":"所以部長你之前也提過說你要保障基層員工的權益是政府義不容辭的責任所以我想要請教部長就回答您是否支持讓勞工朋友們多做七天假改善我們台灣勞工過勞跟這些剝削的情況"},{"start":355.452,"end":365.848,"text":"我剛跟委員報告過了有關於我支持的那個勞動的條件的部分在這次114年預算的業務費已經被煽動掉了我已經跟他們道歉過那所謂的企業價格其實就是要回歸現在的五一勞動節的勞動的勞動門口已經有放假"},{"start":371.616,"end":374.119,"text":"主席我再用一點點的時間我想要請教一下我們的那個人事總署"},{"start":395.731,"end":414.005,"text":"我也好李署長你好署長很抱歉因為每次人事總署來到立法院本席就會把握機會來跟你們反映有關我們東台家級的這個問題因為這真的是很多東部公教人員的共同心聲本席絕對會一直爭取把握美式的機會希望最後能夠把集團的聲音能夠聽進去"},{"start":416.047,"end":443.78,"text":"我想在年金改革之後 年輕人報考公職的意願越來越低花東地區的公教機構跟學校承受越來越大的壓力那在資源匱乏 還有加上交通不足的情況之下偏鄉公務人員 教職人員的工作都負擔沉重造成什麼 人員流動頻率越來越高行政效率變低 學生受教的品質也受到影響那現在我們針對公教人員東台加給的部分每個月是多少錢"},{"start":447.51,"end":465.663,"text":"630塊跟委員抱歉因為那個是另外一個處沒有關係本席要反映給你聽我們都在加息一個月只有630塊這個630塊連台北台東的支強號都買不起都買不起這個誘因政策不足政人公務人員的流動性高我們偏鄉的教師也不願意留下來"},{"start":466.584,"end":478.699,"text":"那本席擔任過鄉長我非常了解這樣的工人員的高流動力會讓地方特別是在偏鄉會淪為基層工人員的訓練班等到他訓練完了 年資滿了他可能就回西部 回北部"},{"start":480.405,"end":506.827,"text":"所以我們現在建行我們必須要呼籲說你要討論現在現行的制度我們怎麼樣提高花東地區以及偏鄉離島的佳績減少這些因為地區造成不公平的現象增加我們公務員留下來的誘因有效能夠提升我們地方智能的量能我這邊要請處長將相關的信息帶回去人總這邊來討論來改善這個情況很抱歉今天的情況其實我們討論的這個事情是額外"},{"start":509.329,"end":518.521,"text":"但是本席很少有機會可以遇到人種所以至少請人種來幫幫忙可以嗎是謝謝組長 這個太麻煩了 組長是 我們會帶回去研究謝謝組長 謝謝部長 謝謝組長 謝謝好 謝謝黃金兵委員下一位我們請徐益臻委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":696,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（11時15分）謝謝主席，我們請劉部長。"],["主席：部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：部長早安。部長，應該很多人會拿你以前擔任立法委員期間，面對勞基法惡修時的作為來做這一次還給勞工7天假的修法評斷，本席認為觀察一個政治人物需要長時間，本席發現您在擔任內政部長期間，內政部從2025年開始要率先落實提升內政部所屬機關勞務承攬進駐員工的薪資標準，包括約僱、約聘、約用人員及勞務承攬進駐員工，像是國家公園以及所屬轄區的清潔人員、維護人員等等，他的月薪要提高最低工資的1.1倍，也就是3.1萬元起，對吧？部長，這個是你響應的政府作為加薪引擎的政策，這可以代表部長你是相當重視勞工的權益，所以請部長您回想一下，您當初針對這個加薪的行為，你說過什麼樣的話？"],["劉部長世芳：我有點忘記，但是知道這件事情。"],["黃委員建賓：我提醒你，部長，你當時說的是保障基層員工的權益是政府義不容辭的責任。"],["劉部長世芳：當然。"],["黃委員建賓：薪資的提升是一項基本的尊重，這個精神非常重要，我們可以把勞基法修惡的那一塊翻頁，既然內政部很重視我們勞工的權益，我們來談談為什麼要放這7天假，我想這個絕對不是勞動部或經濟部的事情，內政部也可以有自己的態度。","我們從去年2024年12月開始，勞動部揭露國際工時比較中，臺灣2023年的人均工時達到了2,020個小時，是全球第5高、亞洲第2高，我們亞洲僅次於新加坡，我們從法定的工時來看，臺灣跟日、韓一樣都是單週40個小時，新加坡是單週44個小時，看起來臺灣的法定工時沒有比別人差，但差別出在哪裡？就是在有薪假的規定上面，請問部長，我們國家的國定假日是幾天？另外，我們最喜歡比較的日本跟韓國，他們國定假日又是幾天？"],["劉部長世芳：是問我們的國定假日的放假日是幾天？"],["黃委員建賓：對，是幾天？"],["劉部長世芳：11天。"],["黃委員建賓：提醒部長，臺灣是12天。"],["劉部長世芳：如果是勞工的話是12天，抱歉。"],["黃委員建賓：我先提醒，臺灣是12天，韓國、日本是16跟15天。"],["劉部長世芳：好，抱歉。"],["黃委員建賓：我想，這個就是在起點的相當不同，因為除了跨國間的國定假日不同以外，還有特休的差異，像在年資滿15年之前，臺灣的特休假基本都少於日韓，年資只有滿3年、未滿4年，大概是贏日本2天。因為有些人會認為說，只要年資夠高，臺灣的特休就高達30天，明顯勝於日韓對不對？但關鍵因素是什麼？我想我們的勞工可不可以在一個工作從一而終，這是第一個。第二個，部長，你擔任過立委，你的幕僚也就是國會的助理，請問他們換了新老闆之後，他特休的年假可以累積嗎？另外，臺灣又是中小企業為主，你知道中小企業的平均壽命是多長嗎？部長，你知道這兩個問題的答案嗎？第一個國會助理的部分。"],["劉部長世芳：我是不是可以請勞動部來回應一下？因為有關於勞工放假的部分，我們都按照規矩。不過，黃委員所提到說，內政部在去年年底的時候，為了提高我們有一些基層的工作人員的費用，很抱歉，我已經跟他們道歉過了，因為我們的114年的預算是把它編在業務費裡面，已經被刪跟凍掉了。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，我們今天就我們的休假來討論。部長，讓本席跟你回答，國會助理的特休假累積並沒有這個規定，就是說，要看立委本人要不要讓他休了，同樣依據經濟部中小企業處來統計，臺灣中小企業的平均壽命是13年，怎麼做滿15年？所以這不可能，所以我們將法定工時、國定假日、特別休假轉換成年總工時的時候，並依照我們年資來計算的話，韓國入職的第1年的總工時是1,840個小時，為什麼它會低於平均？因為第1年就給15天的特休假，爾後是逐步下降；日本入職第1年平均是1,872個小時，因為第1年的年休假只有10天，但是隨即快速下降，所以在年資滿7年之後，他的年總工時就低於1,800個小時。因為國定假日少，然後我們初入職的特休又低於日韓，所以臺灣勞工入職前2年的年總工時是在1,900小時以上，年資3到9年之間甚至停滯在1,860個小時以上，要等到年資滿9年之後才會逐步下降。所以臺灣的制度工時在入職前10年，每年平均是比日本多出52個小時、比韓國多出51.2個小時，這五十多個小時代表是什麼概念？就是如果我們把七天假加進來，臺灣的低年資工者的制度工時才能夠真正地跟日韓並駕齊驅。部長之前也提過，保障基層員工的權益是政府義不容辭的責任，所以我想要請教部長，您是否支持讓勞工朋友們多這七天假，以改善臺灣勞工過勞跟剝削的情況？"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛跟委員報告過，有關於我支持的勞動條件的部分，在這次114年預算的業務費已經被刪凍掉了，我已經跟你們道歉過……"],["黃委員建賓：部長，我現在請問你是否支持就好。"],["劉部長世芳：所謂七天假的部分，其實就是要回歸現在的五一勞動節的勞動人口已經有放假。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，我是說你也很照顧勞工，你都有把薪水調高，請問你是否支持勞工朋友能夠有多的假來休息？你回答是否支持這樣子就好。","另外，因為時間的關係，主席，我再用一點點的時間，我想要請教人事總處，人事總處今天剛好有到立法院。"],["主席：有請人事總處。"],["李處長花書：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：李處長你好。處長，抱歉，每次人事總處來到立法院，本席就會把握機會來跟你們反映有關東台加給的問題，因為這真的是很多東部公教人員共同的心聲，本席絕對會一直爭取，把握每次的機會，希望中央能夠把基層的聲音聽進去。在年金改革之後，年輕人報考公職的意願越來越低，花東地區的公教機構跟學校承受越來越大的壓力，在資源匱乏加上交通不便的情況之下，偏鄉公務人員跟教職人員的工作都負擔沉重，造成人員流動頻率越來越高，行政效率變低，學生受教品質也受到影響。現在針對公教人員東台加給的部分，每個月是多少錢？630塊，對吧？"],["李處長花書：跟委員抱歉，因為那個是另外一個處──給與福利處……"],["黃委員建賓：沒關係，本席要反映給你聽，我們東台加給一個月只有630塊，這個630塊連臺北到臺東的自強號都買不起，這個誘因政策不足，造成公務人員的流動性高，偏鄉的教師也不願意留下來。本席擔任過鄉長，我非常了解公務人員的高流動率會讓地方，特別是偏鄉，淪為基層公務人員的訓練班，等到他訓練完了、年資滿了，他可能就回西部、回北部了。所以我們呼籲中央必須要討論現行的制度，我們怎麼樣提高花東地區以及偏鄉離島的加給，減少因為地區造成不公平的現象，增加公務人員留下來的誘因，以有效提升我們地方資源的量能？我要請處長將相關的訊息帶回去人總討論，來改善這個情況。很抱歉，今天的情況，其實我們討論的事情是額外的，但是本席很少有機會可以遇到人總，所以這要請人總來幫幫忙，可以嗎？"],["李處長花書：是。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝處長，這個再麻煩處長。"],["李處長花書：我們會帶回去研究。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝處長、謝謝部長、謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝黃建賓委員。","下一位請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159255","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159255","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb963200d25459f5aa100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e912d6590a054ec0c545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"11:06:10 - 11:14:59","影片長度":"00:08:49","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T11:06:10+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T11:14:59+08:00","duration":529,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.574093750000001,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.25721875,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.657843750000001,"end":12.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.51846875,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.754718750000002,"end":12.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.83909375,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.88971875,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.906593750000003,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.99096875,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.03846875,"end":60.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.018468750000004,"end":53.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.34221875,"end":81.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.21221875,"end":220.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.16096875000002,"end":302.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.90284375000002,"end":253.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.73659375,"end":264.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.59221875000003,"end":271.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.41034375000004,"end":272.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.59971875,"end":307.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.81409375000004,"end":311.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.11721875,"end":407.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.66346875000005,"end":430.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.70096875,"end":473.76284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.11721875,"end":478.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.31471875000005,"end":482.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.53784375000004,"end":487.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.70596875,"end":487.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.71846875000006,"end":490.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.70534375000005,"end":499.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.85159375,"end":504.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.30221875,"end":525.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.0165937500001,"end":524.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.7422187500001,"end":525.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.77159375,"end":526.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.5772187499999,"end":528.9778437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.574,"end":28.43,"text":"好謝謝主席我們先請內政部長劉部長有請黃委員好好部長好今天這個題目其實像剛剛部長已經有提到說要不要紀念跟要不要放假其實是兩個層次那我希望部長可以在這邊跟大家再說明一次就是為什麼有的紀念日"},{"start":29.21,"end":52.223,"text":"跟要不要放假是兩件事呢是根據我們現在的一個實施辦法我們認為說有12個紀念日6個民俗節日跟9個特定節日其中是規定全國放假日那就是中華民國的開國紀念日還有和平紀念日國慶日春節民主掃墓節端午節中秋節農曆除夕跟兒童節一共有11天是"},{"start":53.684,"end":81.585,"text":"這是我們認為說第一個符合國際的潮流譬如說裡面的我們的民俗節日裡面還有另外一個我們自己台灣在過去的歷史裡面包括和平紀念日或者是國慶日等等這些都是我們值得紀念的所以既然它是紀念節日的話我們認為全國放假剛好是全國居民同胞都應該把這個重要的節日當成是我們歷史傳承裡面非常重要的一環"},{"start":82.267,"end":105.981,"text":"好謝謝部長的說明所以其實啊因為今天總共有26個委員的版本那我看了一下其實大家的提的方向也非常的分歧包括說名目很分歧要不要放假也很分歧變成說有的是認為這個要設紀念日但有的認為說這個要設紀念日而且要放假那有的是說有些設紀念日但是不用放假那導致說這26個版本下去討論"},{"start":107.942,"end":115.95,"text":"沒完沒了因為太分歧了包括剛剛其實有一些提案委員有說到說他認為說行限紀念日要來放假那我聽了也覺得蠻諷刺的一個被大法官判違憲的一個立法委員然後來說要倡議這個行限紀念日那我當然會覺得是不是有討論空間"},{"start":129.042,"end":152.623,"text":"那包括說有一個委員也提到說他希望823應該要來紀念那我認為說823的精神就是反共那這個委員本身也不反共那他來提823是不是也很諷刺呢那所以包括說這一些名目到底哪一些節日應該要被紀念是不是一項一項該來討論那也包括說如果是我個人的立場我也認為說4月7號的言論自由日是不是應該要來放假"},{"start":155.526,"end":184.825,"text":"那5月24號是不是應該作為婚姻平權紀念日是不是也應該來放假如此這樣子名目分歧討論下去可能會沒完沒了所以我也認為這件事情必須要有更多的共識包括哪一些節日值得被全國的人民來紀念包括哪一些的名目是應該要真的全國來放假的都有非常多的討論空間因為其實剛剛也有提到說有一些委員是希望說特定的"},{"start":185.585,"end":211.345,"text":"職業別來放假包括警察節消防節那可能也有的委員覺得說那是不是醫師節護理師節所有的職業別當天都要來爭取放假呢那我覺得都沒有不好但是如果要討論變成是非常需要所有全民的共識才能最後凝聚出一個共識那最後呢我還是要請教一下部長"},{"start":212.145,"end":220.597,"text":"那到底是這些剛剛所說的這一大堆的國定假日要放在辦法比較好還是應該要立法來處理比較好呢"},{"start":221.435,"end":248.126,"text":"其實如果以委員的高度來看待這件事情的話我認為說立法也我們不敢排斥因為已經有26個委員立法不能夠一竿子就打翻一條船但是我剛提到了立法下去以後會變成沒有彈性所謂的沒有彈性譬如說剛剛委員提到我們認為台灣的言論自由日4月7號應該現在有紀念但是沒有放假"},{"start":248.646,"end":253.888,"text":"但是也許過兩年以後人家會覺得要紀念又要放假那你要不要修法或者是說這個行縣紀念日我們認為它是行縣紀念日12月25號可是對很多年輕族群它這個叫做聖誕節"},{"start":264.793,"end":268.136,"text":"那既然你是聖誕節的話呢假設台灣是尊重很多不同的這個宗教那道教節要不要放假是那佛誕升天節要不要放假那就變成會沒完沒了那這樣子呢會變成是說會以大眾的一個想法為想法的話那幾乎每一天都放假日"},{"start":285.071,"end":300.556,"text":"那如果幾乎每天都放假日的話呢或者是有三分之一以上都在放假的話那所影響到的我想軍公教還是按照法令應該怎麼執行就怎麼走但是很多企業界很多人會認為說你多放假那個少放假是為了大財團不是"},{"start":302.737,"end":331.986,"text":"我們在討論的過程當中其實最大沒有辦法達到共識的就是中小企業界或者像我們現在所了解像小吃攤咖啡廳等等它一個餐廳裡面可能是老闆老闆娘然後只有請一個跟兩個那你因為要放假它要合乎我們的法令的規範的話它要給兩倍甚至說如果是過年期間又碰到所謂的放假日的話說不定比兩倍還要更多或者你沒辦法留住這些勞動人口反而是造成"},{"start":332.666,"end":341.857,"text":"好者越好然後越壞者他越糟糕所以才會造成剛剛有五人提到明明是放假日應該很多人潮可以去賺錢賺一點小的生意錢的部分他要關門因為沒有人手或者會變成這個"},{"start":348.084,"end":368.226,"text":"彈性工時上面的本來是全時就會變成是彈性工時聘請更多的工讀生或者你要聘請更多的所謂的外勞那譬如說我們現在在長期照顧長期照顧是一年365天每天24小時的哪有放假日你把放假日增加的結果是造成很多需要有人長期照顧的家庭"},{"start":368.686,"end":390.503,"text":"支付更多的長期照護的工作者的負擔那這些呢其實我們在勞動部門或者是衛福部門或者是軍公教部門都沒有一個很好的共識可是我們還是保持一個開放的態度認為說是不是在放假天數上面大家來考量一下可不可以大家都會有覺得是否有討論的空間"},{"start":391.684,"end":406.733,"text":"但是你現在硬把它放在這個框架裡面的話呢就像我剛剛所講的每一年我們要到立法院來報告一次這個假日的辦法明年要怎麼放假要不然就沒辦法修法那如果沒辦法修法的話呢那這個法律案呢其實它就沒有彈性"},{"start":407.674,"end":429.507,"text":"好謝謝部長非常完整而且詳細的說明那我認為接下來當然要不要放假放哪一些假其實都是大家可以持開放態度來討論但是如果要把它變成是放在立法裡面的話可能變成每一年都要重新修法反而失去了這個彈性大概是這樣的意思是的好非常謝謝部長那最後一點時間我們是不是請勞動部次長"},{"start":437.742,"end":463.084,"text":"好最後的一分鐘我還是要請次長來說明一下因為其實最後啊這個還是要回歸到說一年到底要不要要多放幾天假那這個其實還是可以討論的因為我也還是必須要老實的說台灣的這個工時的政策還是不盡滿意啦還是有非常多的進步空間那我希望勞動部還是要在這邊承諾可以做勞工的後盾"},{"start":463.584,"end":473.567,"text":"那如何更照顧到勞工的權益包括如何降低工時提高工資這件事情還是非常重要的那是不是最後請次長來說明一下"},{"start":474.181,"end":499.534,"text":"是 謝謝委員當然勞動部一貫的立場長期來就是要維護勞工的權益那特別在工時方面確實我們還有努力空間那工資方面我們也都有一些新的工資政策在陸續推動例如說 包括過去這八年來每一年都調高水利工資那最近這個行政院的經濟法案委員會也有做出了這個決議就希望未來在這個薪資透明化的措施方面呢"},{"start":500.074,"end":526.144,"text":"要更進一步來推動我們勞動部正在跟金管會一起來討論中好 謝謝次長的說明那我覺得照顧勞工還是最重要的雖然我認為過去八年每年都調高最低工資了而且其實我們的工時每年也都在降低當中這也都是過去八年民進黨政府的努力那我認為接下來還是有很多進步的空間那這個真的要拜託勞動部繼續努力好嗎應該的好 謝謝好 謝謝黃介瑋"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":662,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（11時6分）謝謝主席。我們先請內政部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：好，部長好。今天這個題目，其實像剛剛部長已經有提到要不要紀念跟要不要放假，其實是兩個層次。那我希望部長可以在這邊跟大家再說明一次，就是為什麼有的紀念日跟要不要放假是兩件事呢？"],["劉部長世芳：是，根據我們現在的實施辦法有12個紀念日、6個民俗節日跟9個特定節日，其中有規定全國放假日的是中華民國的開國紀念日，還有和平紀念日、國慶日、春節、民族掃墓節、端午節、中秋節、農曆除夕跟兒童節，一共有11天。"],["黃委員捷：是。"],["劉部長世芳：這是我們認為，第一個符合國際潮流，譬如說我們的民俗節日裡面，還有另外臺灣在過去歷史裡面，包括和平紀念日或國慶日等等，這些都是我們值得紀念的，所以既然它是紀念節日的話，我們認為全國放假，剛好是全國軍民同胞都應該把這個重要的節日，當成是我們歷史傳承裡面非常重要的一環。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長的說明。因為今天總共有26個委員的版本，那我看了一下，其實大家提的方向也非常分歧，包括名目很分歧、要不要放假也很分歧，變成有的是認為這個要設紀念日；但有的認為這個要設紀念日，而且要放假；那有的是說有些設紀念日，但是不用放假，導致這26個版本討論下去沒完沒了，因為太分歧了。包括剛剛有一些提案委員有說到，他認為行憲紀念日要來放假，我聽了也覺得蠻諷刺的，一個被大法官判違憲的立法委員，然後來說要倡議行憲紀念日，我當然會覺得是不是有討論的空間；包括有一個委員也提到他希望八二三應該要來紀念，我認為八二三的精神就是反共，這個委員本身也不反共，他來提八二三是不是也很諷刺呢？所以包括這一些名目到底哪些節日應該要被紀念，是不是一項一項該來討論？也包括如果以我個人的立場，我也認為4月7號的言論自由日，是不是應該要來放假？那5月24號是不是也應該作為婚姻平權紀念日來放假？如此這樣名目分歧，討論下去可能會沒完沒了。","所以我也認為這件事情必須要有更多的共識，包括哪一些節日值得被全國人民來紀念的、哪一些名目應該要全國來放假的，都有非常多的討論空間。其實剛剛也有提到，有一些委員是希望特定職業別來放假，包括警察節、消防節，也有的委員覺得是不是醫師節、護理師節所有的職業別，當天都要來爭取放假呢？我覺得都沒有不好，但是如果要討論變成非常需要所有全民的共識，最後才能凝聚出一個共識。最後，我還是要請教部長，到底剛剛所說的這一大堆國定假日，是要放在辦法比較好？還是應該要立法來處理比較好呢？"],["劉部長世芳：其實如果以委員的高度來看待這件事情的話，我認為說立法我們不敢排斥，因為已經有26個委員立法，不能夠一竿子就打翻一條船，但是我剛提到立法下去以後會變成沒有彈性，所謂的沒有彈性，譬如說，剛剛委員提到我們認為臺灣的言論自由日4月7號現在有紀念，但是沒有放假……"],["黃委員捷：對。"],["劉部長世芳：但是也許過兩年以後，仍然會覺得要紀念又要放假，你要不要修法？"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["劉部長世芳：或者是說行憲紀念日，我們認為是行憲紀念日12月25號，可是對於很多年輕族群，這個叫做聖誕節。"],["黃委員捷：聖誕節，是。"],["劉部長世芳：既然你是聖誕節的話，假設臺灣是尊重很多不同的宗教……"],["黃委員捷：宗教多元。"],["劉部長世芳：那道教節要不要放假？"],["黃委員捷：是。"],["劉部長世芳：佛誕、升天節要不要放假？就變成會沒完沒了，這樣子會變成是會以大眾的一個想法為想法的話，幾乎每一天都放假日，如果幾乎每天都放假日的話，或者是有三分之一以上都在放假的話，所影響到的……我想軍公教還是按照法令應該怎麼執行就怎麼走，但是很多企業界，很多人會認為說，少放假是為了大財團，不是，我們在討論的過程當中，其實最大沒有辦法達到共識的就是中小企業界或者像我們現在所了解，像小吃攤、咖啡廳等等，一個餐廳裡面可能是老闆、老闆娘，然後只有請1個或2個員工，因為要放假他要合乎我們的法令的規範的話，他要給兩倍，甚至說，如果是過年期間，又碰到所謂的放假日的話，說不定比兩倍還要更多……"],["黃委員捷：是。"],["劉部長世芳：否則你沒辦法留住這些勞動人口，反而是造成好者越好、越壞者越糟糕，所以才會造成剛剛有委員提到，明明是放假日，應該很多人潮可以去賺一點小的生意錢的部分，他要關門，因為沒有人手，或者會變成彈性工時本來是全時就會變成是彈性工時，聘請更多的工讀生，或者要聘請更多的外勞；譬如說，我們現在在長期照顧，長期照顧是一年365天，每天24小時的，哪有放假日？你把放假日增加的結果，是造成很多需要有人長期照顧的家庭，要支付更多的長期照護的工作者的負擔，這些其實我們在勞動部門或是衛福部門或是軍公教部門都沒有一個很好的共識，可是我們還是保持一個開放的態度，認為說是不是在放假天數上面，大家來考量一下，可不可以大家覺得是否有討論的空間？但是你現在硬把它放在這個框架裡面的話，就像我剛剛所講的，每一年我們要到立法院來報告一次這個假日的辦法，明年要怎麼放假，要不然就沒辦法修法，如果沒辦法修法的話，這個法律案其實就沒有彈性。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長非常完整而且詳細的說明，我認為接下來當然要不要放假、放哪一些假，其實都是大家可以持開放態度來討論，但是如果要把它變成是放在立法裡面的話，可能變成每一年都要重新修法，反而失去了這個彈性，大概是這樣的意思。"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["黃委員捷：好，非常謝謝部長，最後一點時間，我們是不是請勞動部次長？","最後的1分鐘，我還是要請次長來說明一下，因為最後還是要回歸到說一年到底要多放幾天假，這個其實還是可以討論的，因為我還是必須要老實地說，臺灣的工時的政策還是不盡滿意，還是有非常多的進步空間，我希望勞動部還是要在這邊承諾可以做勞工的後盾，如何更照顧到勞工的權益，包括如何降低工時、提高工資，這件事情還是非常重要的，是不是最後請次長來說明一下？"],["李次長健鴻：是，謝謝委員。當然勞動部一貫的立場，長期以來就是要維護勞工的權益，特別在工時方面，確實我們還有努力空間，工資方面我們也都有一些新的工資政策在陸續推動。"],["黃委員捷：例如說？"],["李次長健鴻：包括過去這8年來，每1年都調高最低工資，最近行政院的經濟發展委員會也有做出了這個決議，希望未來在薪資透明化的措施方面要更進一步來推動，我們勞動部在跟金管會一起來討論中。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝次長的說明，我覺得照顧勞工還是最重要的，雖然我認為過去8年每年都調高最低工資，而且我們的工時每年也都在降低當中，這也都是過去8年民進黨政府的努力，我認為接下來還是有很多進步的空間，真的要拜託勞動部繼續努力，好嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：是，應該的。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員。下一位，我們請黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159254","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159254","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb97a157ab1fc7c27c100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e910d1fb675c659de675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:57:04 - 11:06:03","影片長度":"00:08:59","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T10:57:04+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T11:06:03+08:00","duration":539,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.6215937500000001,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.0434687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0434687500000002,"end":1.8872187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.56221875,"end":3.2034687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.919718750000001,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.99971875,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.231593750000002,"end":15.657218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.977843750000002,"end":19.605968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.01096875,"end":32.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.48159375,"end":34.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.48971875,"end":39.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.65346875,"end":43.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.66971875,"end":45.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.234718750000006,"end":48.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.49596875,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.38596875,"end":51.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.46596875,"end":53.524718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.98034375,"end":57.422843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.743468750000005,"end":62.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.77221875,"end":63.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.18971875,"end":68.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.52659375,"end":71.81721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.18846875,"end":73.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.53409375000001,"end":75.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.28909375,"end":77.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.57159375,"end":79.63034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.93409375,"end":82.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.76909375000001,"end":85.92471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.27909375,"end":88.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.08034375000001,"end":91.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.66221875000001,"end":92.89409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.46784375,"end":94.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.81784375000001,"end":96.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.91034375000001,"end":98.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.73284375,"end":101.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.48346875,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.45784375000001,"end":104.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.53784375000001,"end":106.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.00159375000001,"end":107.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.23346875,"end":109.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.63409375,"end":110.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.32159375,"end":113.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.12284375,"end":115.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.70909375000001,"end":117.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.32471875,"end":119.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.16409375,"end":121.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.57721875000001,"end":124.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.25596875000001,"end":130.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.58846875,"end":133.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.90034375000002,"end":134.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.92971875,"end":136.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.97159375,"end":138.94596875000002},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您按照案報導劉部長有請"},{"start":10.163,"end":15.346,"text":"部長,在剛才我們討論當中,就是講到要怎麼休息可以補完工,我們現在就工了,在剛才你所工作報告裡面也說,我們的國庭假日已經11天了,但是實際,週休二日,我們已經一天當中,休息185天,到186天了,"},{"start":39.679,"end":40.56,"text":"在365天的一天,在你做3天多,還可以休息一天啊但是現在就是說,面臨我們六天的問題啦因為六天說實在啦,如果說那麼實在啦"},{"start":57.842,"end":67.814,"text":"六天就是說 你的假日 你的國庭假日要休息跟公司叫我不能休息 跟我要上班的時候是不是有那個加班實績 捏到兩杯子啦"},{"start":74.562,"end":77.044,"text":"這才是重要啦因為我覺得這是最現實的因為我們今天要想辦法如何能夠包括我們的勞工也好包括我們的公務人員也好都是拿出來探討因為我覺得你未來大家會更貼心會再看如何比較我們能夠好好"},{"start":101.525,"end":105.786,"text":"在這個過程當中,說實在,六甘也有非常辛苦像有的,有提起說,他的族群像台灣,我們的人民會,我們提出,他覺得兩位一天不夠要再三天,再過天假日,這是一對因關主因"},{"start":126.892,"end":136.483,"text":"會關心要怎麼去請求給他們的關注民,會負責知道他們的封面紙,他們的活動,讓他們聽聽順順,都知道這個規定"},{"start":142.009,"end":144.992,"text":"在這個當中 像有警察 我也覺得警察罪很辛苦的消防罪 消防罪也很辛苦的每一個說出來的單位都非常辛苦 要怎麼依你的"},{"start":161.128,"end":168.012,"text":"轉押,要如何讓大家知道,這個族群的情況,這個族群要去臨,我們不是說有社群和平日,日日白,日日白對我們來說,"},{"start":177.458,"end":191.744,"text":"是非常心疼的日子不是發音不末像保安公司說我們要請求打幾次這是要讓我們中華民國的台灣不能忘記一天所有發生的事情所以在這個過程我剛才也聽到我們的董事會說823反共的日子"},{"start":205.543,"end":209.986,"text":"沒有要反抗喔!他不說要紀念要休息喔!這樣說實在,我們這個紀念跟休息的定義是什麼?像普通,剛才本席從北海講到現在,跟你們有什麼好好的意見嗎?包括剛才我們的延命會,也說出"},{"start":231.061,"end":234.985,"text":"我相信我們內政部所講的紀念日的部分我是認為說有很多人不關心紀念日是在紀念什麼東西"},{"start":247.841,"end":250.384,"text":"這就是我剛才說的好評率有很多紀念的時候,我們還知道我們今天的效盤是紀念什麼事情這是最要求的所以我們可能對一些歷史或是文化或是一些教育有斷層"},{"start":266.561,"end":269.582,"text":"所以很多人覺得那天可以放假不是在紀念在那天公家機關古板那天和平紀念日會有很多活動以後其他人覺得那天就是放假那天就是要看報會公司有沒有拍攝那天就是要去針對事實上這就是"},{"start":286.348,"end":291.452,"text":"有緩調我們原來希望說記者不是讓大家了解說譬如說我以2禮拜來說2禮拜到底是發生什麼事情是不是違反對抗民主所發生的一些歷史的一些意義沒有人說清楚所以我剛才有跟各位說過包括有勞動節我認為很多勞工在5月初以那天勞動節本來就是放假"},{"start":309.344,"end":316.766,"text":"但是現在有人就是用勞動節要全國放假我剛才有說到勞動節全國放假是什麼人要放假呢就是軍公告放假然後勞動節那一天放假的時候本來公司企業就是要讓那天出來勞動的這裡勞動的兄弟姊妹本來就是要加班費所以我們要用兩個戰促來看那天如果是全國放假的時候要加班費是不是按照勞動基準法裡面所通過要給兩倍薪水"},{"start":338.45,"end":341.853,"text":"這就是最要緊的,就是港的國會才會有效率,跟北省大家都有效率的時候,他們一定會覺得這港的效率沒什麼意義,因為你還要港的國會保護他們,要保護他們"},{"start":361.428,"end":366.072,"text":"所以變成是六黨部門的問題,跟另外今天要想說紀念日的實施辦法,是否完全的關係?在這裡,我剛才好說,因為我認為高清數美委員,他為了我們的官署名,我相信陳映若好,吳立華好,都為了他們的族群的發表、紀念,"},{"start":384.151,"end":385.973,"text":"剛才他們說的,我也覺得這幾年讓他們知道,他們的過程的過去,日出不能忘記,也不能重演,所以說,普通人在這裡我也覺得,大家像這樣好好討論,不要說沒討論,真的沒討論,"},{"start":406.149,"end":411.531,"text":"也不好,我們互相討論,提出我們的大名是誰,歡樂的是誰尤其我們就有感覺,就是剛才我說的說,每年因為今年已經暑假了嘛,沒辦法"},{"start":421.815,"end":425.636,"text":"還有一兩個月就夠了嘛那我們的臨時務也已經發佈了嘛是未來每年的時候要怎麼處理那天一天會加班費嗎所以在這裡面我也願意保證我們所有的單位都要去邀請這個因為說實在我們的勞工也非常辛苦剛才本席說的說做啊做加班啊加班"},{"start":450.643,"end":464.967,"text":"他也願意他可以在大家都休息他出來加班的時候是可以拿到加班的錢來賺錢最主要的就是這樣嘛不然他怎麼跟人家輪三班加班的時候像現在我們週休二日是怎樣他要出來做所以我們願意我們的勞動部次長等於也要願意"},{"start":479.891,"end":494.105,"text":"可以保障我們勞工台的問題因為說實在的小英也好我相信大家坐在這裡的民運代表我們都是勞工台最好的後盾但是我們也是"},{"start":496.227,"end":508.716,"text":"去厚改最好的後盾,因為去厚改,你一定要讓它熟,先準備,沒說一句什麼,要休憩多天,大家都去休息要緊,要不然兩天的平安的時候,我們要怎麼去找最好的,"},{"start":516.121,"end":535.637,"text":"的目標在這裡補充本席跟你剛才所說的希望我們合謀的時候大家互相公出我們的力量我們的煩惱的一隊要怎麼做才可以在今天我們的社會收拾的用心以上好 感謝我們歐美會委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":645,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時57分）主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：劉部長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員你好。"],["王委員美惠：你好。部長，在我們剛才的討論當中有講到要怎麼休息可以保護員工、我們這些勞工。剛才你的工作報告裡面也提及我們的國定假日已經11天，加上週休二日，我們在一年當中也已經休115天至116天了，一年365天，等於你工作三天多可以休息一天。不過現在就是面臨了我們勞工的問題，因為說實在的，說比較現實的，勞工就是在假日、國定假日要休息，但公司叫我不能休息，而我要上班的時候，加班是不是有實際領到2倍的錢，這才重要啦！我覺得這是最現實面的，因為我們今天要修法，包括我們的勞工也好，包括我們的公務人員也好，都要拿出來探討，因為我覺得未來大家會再協商，會再看怎麼樣比較好。","在這個過程當中，說實在的，勞工也非常辛苦，有人有提出他的族群，像剛剛我們的原民會，人家有提出，他認為一天不夠，要再三天國定假日，這是他對他們原住民的關心，要怎麼去慶祝，讓原住民的百姓知道他們的豐年祭等活動，讓他們的子子孫孫都知道這個過程。在這個當中，像警察節，我也覺得警察很辛苦，還有消防節，消防人員也很辛苦，其實每一個說出來的單位都非常辛苦，這個族群要來紀念，我們不是說有時候像和平日二二八，二二八對我們來說，是非常心痛的日子，不是歡喜陶陶，不像百貨公司來慶祝打幾折，這是要讓中華民國的臺灣不能忘記這天所發生的事情，所以在這個過程，我剛剛也聽到我的同事說，八二三反共的日期，不反共，不過要紀念、要休息，說實在這個紀念跟休息的定義是什麼？部長，本席從站出來說到現在，你有什麼更好的意見嗎？包括剛剛原民會也說出怎麼樣可以更好，請部長回答。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的關心，我相信以內政部所說紀念日的部分，我認為有很多人不關心紀念日是在紀念什麼東西，尤其我們……"],["王委員美惠：這就是我剛剛說的和平日，有很多紀念日的時候，我們要知道今天休息是在紀念什麼事情，這是最重要的。"],["劉部長世芳：是，所以我們可能對一些歷史、文化或教育有斷層，所以很多人只了解二二八那天可以放假，不是在紀念。除了公家機關舉辦二二八和平紀念日很多的活動以外，其他的人覺得那天就是放假、那天就是要看百貨公司有沒有打折、那天就是要去玩。事實上，這就是違反原來希望紀念日讓大家了解，譬如以二二八來說，二二八到底是發生什麼事情，是不是威權對抗民主所發生歷史的一些意義，沒有人說清楚。所以我剛剛有跟各位說，包括勞動節，我認為很多勞工在5月1日勞動節本來就是放假，但是現在有人就用勞動節要全國放假，我剛剛說到勞動節全國放假，是什麼人要放假，就是軍公教放假，然而勞動節那一天放假的時候，本來公司、企業就是要給那天出來勞動的兄弟姐妹加班費。所以我們用兩個層次來看，那天如果全國放假的時候，他的加班費是不是按照勞動基準法所通過要給兩倍的薪水，不然放假就沒有意義了。"],["王委員美惠：對，部長，我認為這就是最重要的，就是勞工5月1日休息"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["王委員美惠：到時候變成大家都休息的時候，等於勞工這天休息沒什麼意義，除非你還要再一天加班費給他。"],["劉部長世芳：要補給他，讓他補假、特休或加班費。"],["王委員美惠：對，還要補給他啊！"],["劉部長世芳：所以就變成是勞動部門的問題，跟今天要修定紀念日的這個實施辦法比較沒有完全的關係。"],["王委員美惠：在這裡我剛剛也有說，因為我覺得高金素梅委員，他為了我們的原住民，我相信陳瑩也好、伍麗華也好，都為了他們的族群在努力、在紀念，剛剛他們說的，我也覺得這個紀念讓他們知道發生的過程，過去的歷史不能忘記，但是不能重演，所以部長在這裡，我也覺得大家像這樣好好討論，不要說沒討論，真的沒討論也不好，互相討論提出我們擔憂的是什麼、煩惱的是什麼，尤其我們的勞工界，就是剛剛我說的，因為今年已經是事實了，5月1日還有一、兩個月就到了，人事也已經發布了，但是未來、明年要怎麼處理，多的一天要加班費嗎？所以在這裡，我也希望部長跟所有的單位都要去注意這個部分，因為說實在我們的勞工也非常辛苦。剛剛本席在說的，該做的做、加班也加班，他也希望在大家都休息，他卻出來加班的時候，是可以領到加倍的錢來賺錢，最主要就是這樣嘛，不然他何必跟人家輪三班，加班的時候，像現在週休二日，為什麼他要出來做，所以我們也希望勞動部次長，回去也要研議可以保障勞工界的問題，因為說實在的，小英也好，我相信大家坐在這裡的民意代表，我們都是勞工界最好的後盾，不過我們也是企業界最好的後盾，因為企業界，你一定要讓它生存下去，不然說一句比較難聽的，要休那麼多天，大家都去放假有什麼關係，不過兩邊要去平衡的時候，我們要怎麼去做到最好的目標，在這裡，部長，本席跟你剛剛所說的，希望我們如果協調的時候，大家互相說出我們的理念、我們的煩惱在哪裡，要怎麼做才可以值得今天召委所排的用心，以上。"],["主席：感謝王美惠委員。","下一位請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159253","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159253","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb83bc47fdddc8182a100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e916ae45aca37e5d7365ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:48:21 - 10:56:56","影片長度":"00:08:35","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T10:48:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T10:56:56+08:00","duration":515,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.31159375,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.48409375,"end":17.395343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.12034375,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.16659375,"end":23.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.398468750000003,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.22534375,"end":46.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.14596875,"end":50.470343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.892218750000005,"end":56.882843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.25409375,"end":69.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.02846875,"end":101.93909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.42846875000001,"end":108.26721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.82409375,"end":109.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.78596875000001,"end":138.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.52409375000002,"end":141.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.71346875,"end":144.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.98721875,"end":156.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.42409375,"end":157.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.60971875,"end":161.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.14909375000002,"end":175.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.85596875000002,"end":175.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.51409375,"end":187.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.81596875000002,"end":196.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.97909375,"end":225.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.19409375,"end":262.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.81346875,"end":257.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.83034375,"end":257.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.84721875,"end":258.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.11659375,"end":280.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.61284375,"end":273.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.21596875,"end":274.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.58659375,"end":279.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.59034375000005,"end":282.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.27784375000005,"end":289.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.01096875,"end":295.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.91721875,"end":296.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.18721875,"end":301.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.04284375000003,"end":304.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.82721875000004,"end":306.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.63284375,"end":309.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.63659375000003,"end":316.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.06159375000004,"end":318.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.86284375,"end":323.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.37284375,"end":324.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.06471875,"end":333.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.52721875000003,"end":336.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.24409375000005,"end":345.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.90096875,"end":348.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.22534375000004,"end":351.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.34721875,"end":353.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.06846875,"end":355.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.05971875,"end":358.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.31659375000004,"end":361.10534375000003},{"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有請劉部長跟勞動部次長劉部長 李次長有請李委員好部長好"},{"start":25.512,"end":53.982,"text":"今天是審查這個紀念日跟節日的實施草案剛剛很多委員也講得非常清楚那部長論述更清楚多數委員的版本都提出要把這些放假的日期改成法律未接那其實事實上剛剛也講得很清楚這其實是用行政方法就可以處理那我把它歸類成幾個第一個就是紀念日的放假紀念日的放假就是包含這個1月1號"},{"start":55.383,"end":62.262,"text":"然後我們的和平紀念日要講清楚這和平紀念日是要紀念是要記得這一天"},{"start":62.796,"end":89.346,"text":"而不是去慶祝這一天 這是紀念日好 國慶日的放假 還有行縣紀念日行縣紀念日要不要放假你記得憲法的五權分立嗎你記得憲法對於立法院的規定等等嗎要不要放假 這個其實可以來討論那第二個就是民俗節日的放假包含過年農曆春節然後包含端午節 中秋節 包含快要"},{"start":91.247,"end":101.657,"text":"即將來臨的掃墓節清明節然後還有一個就是節日的放假包含兒童節跟這個清明節連在一起那軍人節要不要放假"},{"start":103.109,"end":130.126,"text":"那勞動節要不要放假這個是大家要今天接下來要討論的東西好更多的版本現在提到對於族群文化的重視包含原住民文化到底要不要放假包含客家文化到底要不要放假多元族群到底要不要放假多元族群包含有委員也提出來國民體育日國家防災日要不要放假這個都是在這個族群方面的"},{"start":130.566,"end":155.255,"text":"好特殊的節日包含警察節要不要紀念要不要放假消防節要不要紀念要不要放假教師節要不要紀念要不要放假一共所有這些版本加起來目前我們的這個節日放假的節日一共有11天那我們把剛剛我這樣細數過來的所有的版本加起來會增加到32天"},{"start":157.415,"end":175.183,"text":"那會增加到32天跟這個部長我們想要討論的是釐清的就是說節日跟國定假日要不要放在一起紀念日跟假日紀念日要不要一定放假可不可以請部長說明一下紀念日跟放假的概念我們到底要"},{"start":176.104,"end":190.22,"text":"謝謝委員的垂詢 我也非常關心這個議題我想我們剛剛有提到說這要分兩個層次來看待一個就是如果他是假日或是節日的話呢他會有訂定的辦法但是假日跟節日到底要不要放假"},{"start":190.7,"end":198.202,"text":"那就是由目的事業主管機關跟相關的機關會同來實施現在是現行的辦法是這樣子那目前我們在執行的過程當中呢當然會碰到一些困擾就是剛剛大家所說的如果你的連假很長那補班的時候要不要補班那我們就是擔心補班會造成困擾所以會在前一年度人事行政總局就會對外公佈像譬如說今年的整個的放假天數跟包括要補班或者是要連假的部分在去年的11月左右"},{"start":219.628,"end":238.986,"text":"就會對外來公佈那這個呢只能規範到就是公務系統的軍公教那但是因為我們台灣的很多企業界他是跟著公務部門一起放假的所以就變成行政院的人事行政總署發出去那個針對全國的軍公教放假補班留班日等等這些他們就跟著一起"},{"start":240.687,"end":261.899,"text":"來執行那當然這有方便跟不方便的地方那所以現在呢把它立法以後呢會變成會比較共識會比較難會變成今年有今年的法律明年有明年的法律那我們變成年年都要修法才能夠訂定那一年什麼時候放假什麼時候不放假就是我們認為說倉促入法呢會比較沒有共識的原因之一"},{"start":262.399,"end":282.324,"text":"對所以沒有人說這個應該放這個不應該放但是其實現在的法律就可以讓大家的上班日跟放假日會比較有彈性一點的去讓我講最簡單的接下來是勞動部來部長你先請回座接下來是勞動部的執行一對夫妻啊"},{"start":283.322,"end":301.503,"text":"那現在一個先生可能是公務員那太太可能是勞工那遇到強制要放假的時候勞工還是要輪班嘛那輪班對企業主來講企業主來講他可能就是付兩倍的薪水"},{"start":302.093,"end":318.403,"text":"但是對更多的這些庶民經濟來講我講的是比如說咖啡店比如說這些很小的餐飲我在高雄有一家很有名的牛肉麵店他曾經就貼出來了那一天讓我非常扼腕那一天就是一個連假嘛"},{"start":320.112,"end":344.456,"text":"連假休息很正常通常他都外面都會貼說4月3號到5號這個清明連假放假沒有他是貼說我請不到人休假但是不知道什麼時候可以請到人那什麼什麼時候遇到這種狀況當這個我們強制他要這個國定假日休假到你如果說到現在的版本32天的話那會產生什麼什麼什麼狀況"},{"start":349.284,"end":376.026,"text":"先生可能公務員他就放假了嘛那太太他可能必須也跟著先生放假他有他的選擇他不要領兩倍的薪水他有他的選擇他也放假他也放假的話這一個可能咖啡店或可能這一個小餐廳他就出現剛剛我講的這個狀況貼了貼紙出來說我沒有辦法營業因為我們假日沒有人營業另外一種狀況就是這個僱主"},{"start":380.39,"end":409.282,"text":"當這個僱主每次遇到這些連假的時候都找不到人的時候都沒有人可以輪班的時候這家店其實他不只面臨這些這些固定假日他要休息這家店很有可能他會走向關門他會因為找不到找不到這個員工關門那我們也不是反對我們是覺得這32天的提出來的這些不管是紀念日或者是假日跟台灣現在目前"},{"start":409.921,"end":438.247,"text":"所這樣運行的這些狀況加上一例一休執行以來的這些狀況必須要切合現在台灣社會的狀況那次長我想請教你從一例一休以來目前台灣所有勞工的這些一例一休的比例有做多大的提升是謝謝委員跟委員報導那個我們勞動部有調查2015年就一例一休修法之前"},{"start":439.212,"end":459.989,"text":"有事業單位規定勞工每週工作五天的那個事業單位的比例大概是76%可是到接下來一例修法之後就逐年的增加到2021年事業單位規定勞工每週工作只要五天的事業單位比例已經提升到87%87%對87%等於"},{"start":464.013,"end":480.889,"text":"增加了12%同樣的勞工的部分也一樣就是說2016年是勞工在事業單位規定下勞工每週工作5天的比例其實是86%可是到2021年已經增加到94%"},{"start":482.43,"end":503.262,"text":"也就是說其實依你這個數字來講增加到90幾%的話其實現在所有我剛剛講的很多的這些實體的小店面其實它已經試行這個最容易發生問題的就是在10人以下的你做這個改變的時候它必須要做快速的因應所以我覺得還是需要社會廣泛的多討論接下來我們這個討論到底要讓台灣社會"},{"start":506.985,"end":511.914,"text":"放多少價 那這些小店家是可以承受的是 謝謝 同意委員好 謝謝李柏毅委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":623,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時48分）謝謝，有請劉部長跟勞動部次長。"],["主席：劉部長、李次長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：李委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：部長好。今天是審查紀念日及節日實施法草案，剛剛很多委員也講得非常清楚，部長論述更清楚，多數委員的版本都提出要把這些放假的日期改成法律位階，事實上，剛剛也講得很清楚，這其實用行政方法就可以處理。我把它歸類成幾個，第一個就是紀念日的放假，紀念日的放假就是包含1月1號還有我們的和平紀念日，要講清楚，是和平紀念日，是要紀念，是要記得這一天，而不是去慶祝這一天，這是紀念日，然後是國慶日的放假，還有行憲紀念日，行憲紀念日要不要放假？你記得憲法的五權分立嗎？你記得憲法對於立法院的規定等等嗎？要不要放假，其實這個可以來討論。第二個就是民俗節日的放假，包含過年、農曆春節、端午節、中秋節，包含即將來臨的掃墓節、清明節，然後還有一個就是節日的放假，包含兒童節跟清明節連在一起，那軍人節要不要放假？勞動節要不要放假？這個是大家今天接下來要討論的東西。","另外，更多的版本提到對於族群文化的重視，包含原住民文化到底要不要放假？包含客家文化到底要不要放假？多元族群到底要不要放假？多元族群包含有委員也提出國民體育日、國家防災日要不要放假？這個都是在族群方面的。","再來是特殊的節日，包含警察節要不要紀念？要不要放假？消防節要不要紀念？要不要放假？教師節要不要紀念？要不要放假？","所有這些版本加起來，目前臺灣放假的節日一共有11天，我們把剛剛我這樣細數過來的所有版本加起來會增加到32天，如果增加到32天的話，部長，我們想要討論、釐清的是，節日跟國定假日要不要放在一起？紀念日跟假日，紀念日要不要一定放假？可不可以請部長說明一下紀念日跟放假的概念？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的垂詢，委員非常關心這個議題，我想我們剛剛有提到這要分兩個層次來看待，一個就是如果它是假日或是節日的話，它會有訂定的辦法，但是假日跟節日到底要不要放假，那就是由目的事業主管機關跟相關的機關會同來實施，現行辦法是這樣子。","目前我們在執行的過程中當然會碰到一些困擾，就是剛剛大家所說的，如果連假很長，那補班的時候要不要補班？我們就是擔心補班會造成困擾，所以人事行政總處在前一年度就會對外公布，譬如說今年整個放假天數，包括要補班或者要連假的部分，在去年11月左右就會對外來公布，這個只能規範到公務系統的軍公教，但是因為我們臺灣很多企業界是跟著公務部門一起放假，所以就變成行政院人事行政總處發出去針對全國軍公教放假、補班、留班日等等這些，他們就跟著一起來執行。當然這有方便跟不方便的地方，所以現在把它立法以後變成共識會比較難，會變成今年有今年的法律，明年有明年的法律，我們變得年年都要修法，才能夠訂定那一年什麼時候放假、什麼時候不放假，這是我們認為倉促入法會比較沒有共識的原因之一。"],["李委員柏毅：對，所以沒有人說這個應該放、這個不應該放，但是其實現在的法律就可以讓大家的上班日跟放假日會比較有彈性一點，我講最簡單的，接下來是關於勞動部的質詢，部長你先請回座。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：接下來是關於勞動部的質詢。有一對夫妻，先生可能是公務員，太太可能是勞工，如果遇到強制要放假的時候，勞工還是要輪班嘛。"],["李次長健鴻：對。"],["李委員柏毅：關於輪班，對企業主來講，他可能就是付2倍的薪水，但是對更多的庶民經濟來講，我講的是比如說咖啡店，比如說這些很小的餐飲店。像高雄有一家很有名的牛肉麵店，那一天讓我非常扼腕，那一天就是一個連假，其實連假休息很正常，通常他都會在外面貼出公告說4月3號到5號清明連假放假，但是沒有欸，他是貼出公告說他請不到人，休假，但是不知道什麼時候可以請到人。什麼時候會遇到這種狀況？當我們強制他要國定假日休假，如果說到現在的版本32天的話，那會產生什麼狀況？先生可能是公務員，他就放假了，而太太可能必須跟著先生放假，他有他的選擇，他不要領2倍的薪水，他有他的選擇，他也放假，如果他也放假的話，可能這個咖啡店或小餐廳就會出現我剛剛講的這個狀況，就是貼出公告說沒有辦法營業，因為他們假日沒有人營業。","另外一種狀況就是當這個雇主每次遇到這些連假都找不到人、都沒有人可以輪班的時候，這家店其實不只面臨國定假日他要休息，這家店很有可能會走向關門，他會因為找不到員工而關門。","其實我們也不是反對，我們是覺得這32天，就是提出來的這些不管是紀念日或者是假日，跟臺灣目前運行的這些狀況，加上一例一休執行以來的這些狀況，必須要切合現在臺灣社會的狀況。次長，我想請教你，從一例一休以來，目前臺灣所有勞工這些一例一休的比例有做多大的提升？"],["李次長健鴻：謝謝委員。跟委員報告，我們勞動部有調查，2015年，就是一例一休修法之前，有事業單位規定勞工每每週工作5天的事業單位比例大概是76%；可是接下來一例一休修法之後就逐年地增加，到2021年，事業單位規定勞工每週工作只要5天的事業單位比例已經提升到87%，等於增加了12%。同樣地，勞工的部分也一樣，就是說2016年，在事業單位規定下，勞工每週工作5天的比例是86%，可是到2021年已經增加到94%。"],["李委員柏毅：也就是說，依你這個數字來講，增加到百分之九十幾的話，現在所有我剛剛講的很多這些實體的小店面，其實它已經試行這個了，最容易發生問題的就是在10人以下的，你做這個改變的時候，它必須要做快速的因應，所以我覺得還是需要社會多加廣泛討論，接下來我們要討論到底要讓臺灣社會放多少假，而這些小店家是可以承受的。"],["李次長健鴻：是，謝謝，同意委員。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員。","接下來我們請王美惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159252","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159252","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb8276e96cc98bb9f2100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e91274b52413cc438d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:38:02 - 10:48:16","影片長度":"00:10:14","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T10:38:02+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T10:48:16+08:00","duration":614,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.31721875,"end":10.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.10096875,"end":12.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.020343750000002,"end":27.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.094093750000003,"end":68.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.96534375,"end":80.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.14909375,"end":88.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.70471875000001,"end":97.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.82159375,"end":105.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.83721875,"end":116.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.69596875,"end":145.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.48784375000001,"end":130.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.76159375,"end":131.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.64096875,"end":147.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.02909375000002,"end":175.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.13846875000002,"end":176.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.47596875000002,"end":179.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.02409375000002,"end":183.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.52534375000002,"end":185.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.02721875,"end":192.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.79409375,"end":218.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.59409375,"end":203.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.87659375,"end":205.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.89284375000003,"end":209.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.68159375000002,"end":210.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.60971875,"end":211.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.68034375000002,"end":230.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.30284375000002,"end":238.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.74034375000002,"end":249.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.17346875,"end":254.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.83096875,"end":256.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.05409375,"end":260.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.74971875,"end":261.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.59346875,"end":265.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.90096875,"end":310.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.70659375,"end":267.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.51409375000003,"end":321.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.85409375,"end":390.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.03471875,"end":354.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.99096875000004,"end":393.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.72909375,"end":404.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.50096875,"end":394.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.56846875,"end":394.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.00534375,"end":407.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.83221875000004,"end":408.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.91221875,"end":412.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.95784375000005,"end":422.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.32346875,"end":438.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.03409375,"end":447.21846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.58971875000003,"end":521.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.15346875,"end":512.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.2109687500001,"end":553.7334687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","sta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我們有請部長還有這個勞動部的政務次長好 劉部長 李次長有請"},{"start":16.201,"end":40.418,"text":"今天我們在內政委員會要討論的是增訂國定假日的議題其實是工會還有包括三十萬原住民勞工在內的所有勞工八年來他們一直說還我七天假運動的延續我們回憶一下他們是從兩千年開始就訴求了希望縮短工時也就是週休二日"},{"start":41.458,"end":68.156,"text":"15年之後政府才把法定的工時縮短到每週40個小時勞動部次長應該很清楚但是這一次以來為了要怕得罪大老闆們我們的政府又把週休二日定成了一例一休勞工是這當中的唯一輸家而這8年來我們看一下工會還有勞工他們透過了集會抗議你看一下照片讓你回憶一下"},{"start":69.036,"end":96.838,"text":"工會集會抗議遊行寫寫書絕食非常多的活動就是要希望政府能夠還給勞工七天的假期然而這當中我們的政府每一次的說法工會和勞工他們也都非常理直氣壯的反駁廣大的勞工朋友都非常支持恢復這些被刪除的國家這才是"},{"start":97.881,"end":115.698,"text":"沒有打折的明確的落實人權兩公約裡面的勞動人權條款所以我認為有為的政府負責任的政府應該要把三除七天的國定假日要全數恢復放假請問部長跟次長的意見簡短好嗎"},{"start":119.275,"end":145.549,"text":"謝謝高靜雯的吹詢我想我們尊重高靜雯對於所謂的勞工所要放假的議題但是我所了解蔡總統她所謂的還勞工十天假的前言跟後語應該要一起來看因為當時並沒有修所謂的週休二日的部分那目前為止我們累計的週休二日加在一起全國的放假日是有115天到116天跟當時只有不到90天或100天的時間差非常的多"},{"start":146.904,"end":156.326,"text":"所以我現在要求的就是因為今天召委有排所以大家好好的來討論唯一的重點剛剛次長您說了希望還給勞工的權益對不對既然是還給勞工的權益的話我就希望我們能夠來討論可以嗎然後真正的把權益還給勞工真正的要恢復人權兩公約裡面的勞動人權可以嗎我不要花太多的時間您說好不好我們來討論"},{"start":176.709,"end":191.935,"text":"我們認為這個案子本來就有討論的空間好 可以討論 好 謝謝那請兩位先回然後請園民會主委曾主委有請主委你對於我們幾個原住民所提的碎石記憶要放假這件事情你有什麼看法"},{"start":193.37,"end":211.318,"text":"碎石祭儀放假我覺得我們是很樂觀希望因為原住民的這個碎石祭儀他們尤其是還要回到自己的部落大家都希望能夠三天這是有原因的因為這個部落整個的祭儀不會是只有一天有時候三天有時候一個禮拜甚至有的一個月"},{"start":212.718,"end":238.779,"text":"這個是我們認為是應該是要這樣子來體諒我們自己的族人好所以曾主委您是跟族人站在一起的所以希望您把這個聲音好好的跟我們的內政部我們的部長來討論一下讓他清楚到部落的狀況第二個我在這個也有提到援助民族歷史轉型正義日還有援助民族抵抗日您的看法"},{"start":240.075,"end":257.814,"text":"這個我想因為這個是一個值得紀念的一個時間那我們也可以建議就是說是不是我們就是尊重委員的這個建議那我們是不是跟內政部跟相關部會 你知道我提這兩個有什麼意義嗎一個是10月31號一個是6月26號"},{"start":261.687,"end":277.515,"text":"一個是強制就是沒說我們原住民土地的那個很好我完整的講一下10月31號這一天對於我們原住民是非常重要的因為在1895年的10月31號殖民的日本總督府他片面"},{"start":278.195,"end":298.8,"text":"發布了翻地等於無阻地等於關有地的日令第26號這項命令呢它強制沒收了台灣原住民族數千年來賴以生存的土地跟領域這使我們原住民流離失所淪為邊緣的群體而這個殖民命令一直到1945年台灣光復之後才被廢止"},{"start":299.46,"end":320.956,"text":"但是儘管這樣你很清楚原住民當初被沒收的土地還有領域沒有全副輝煌給我們1947年國民政府直接沿襲了日本殖民者的搬人所要地歸地改名為三地保留地所以我講的原住民的這兩個日子是跟"},{"start":321.917,"end":342.878,"text":"政權沒有關係跟誰執政沒有關係跟政黨沒有關係它是原住民的轉型正義好我們看1994年又改名為現在的原住民保留地所以呢當時這個翻人索要地的24萬多公頃它是按照當時殖民普查原住民人口多少8萬人"},{"start":344.719,"end":359.783,"text":"這8萬人一個人是3萬公頃的基準算出來的可是現在原住民人口有多少主委你很清楚將近60萬人但是我們的保留地可以讓我們維生的還停留在24萬多公頃"},{"start":361.784,"end":390.236,"text":"所以這就是1980年代原住民族發動還我土地運動最重要的原因這是殖民和威權體制為了經濟掠奪還有節省統治的成本對原住民的土地還有領域不正義的剝奪所以我認為10月31號應該要定為台灣原住民族的歷史轉型正義日以上我提的這段歷史正不正確"},{"start":391.096,"end":404.42,"text":"是我們尊重委員的所以你也同意不管他放不放假但是這一天一定要作為歷史轉型正義日另外為什麼要有援助民主抵抗日您知道嗎主委我還提6月26號沒關係因為今天時間有限"},{"start":414.008,"end":435.445,"text":"主委您看您都不知道更何況我們全國人民更何況我們的族人為什麼現在我們的民進黨政府一直在講反威權一直在講轉型正義就是要切割原住民的正義所以這一天非常的重要這一天6月26號我們看一下1910年"},{"start":439.068,"end":456.976,"text":"日本殖民總督佐久堅佐馬太他對台灣原住民發動了五年的里番戰爭他企圖由北到南全面要殲滅原住民族的抵抗者為了什麼 山林之源1914年佐久堅佐馬太他動員了軍警民 總共兩位人"},{"start":462.699,"end":481.236,"text":"他攻打不到三千人的太魯閣戰士所以在6月26號這天佐佐兼佐瑪泰他在利烏西叛的希拉歐卡他被我們太魯閣族人伏擊了他重傷落馬 因而死亡"},{"start":482.097,"end":502.03,"text":"所以這是台灣原住民族抗日戰役中非常重要的歷史性的勝利所以我認為6月26號這一天我們應該要定為原住民族的抵抗日這對於現在我們政府一直在談的全民原教有積極的意義"},{"start":502.85,"end":521.176,"text":"所以我們原住民要秉持這樣的對抗的精神實現原住民土地的轉型正義你同意嗎好 花一點時間再給大家看一下這不是只有台灣原住民高精素沒在這邊喊喔我就簡單提兩個例子第一個"},{"start":522.276,"end":527.978,"text":"他是世界的潮流我們看其他的國家2002年的委內瑞拉總統查維茲他把10月12號也就是以前所稱的哥倫布登陸美洲的這一天把他改為成什麼原住民族的抵抗日因為對"},{"start":543.943,"end":561.054,"text":"委內拉的原住民來說這一天也是我們的抵抗日再來看一下2011年波利維亞政府他把這一天也就是10月12號定為去殖民化日所以"},{"start":563.363,"end":584.105,"text":"這是世界潮流不是只有原住民族不是只有台灣更何況民進黨政府不斷的口口聲聲說台灣原住民族是台灣的主人既然是主人的話我們就應該讓我們的全民讓原住民的孩子清楚知道原住民族的歷史日子這才符合全民"},{"start":585.146,"end":609.746,"text":"全民原教這才符合所謂的轉型正義好嗎所以主委你都同意是所以我們到時候在討論的時候希望您跟行政院希望您跟我們的部長能夠把這段歷史再說明一段給他們聽好不好好我也希望我們的專委能夠儘早的來排逐條審查然後也讓原住民的轉型正義及早實現謝謝好謝謝高金素梅委員的質詢下一位"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":588,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時38分）謝謝召委，我們有請部長，還有勞動部的政務次長。"],["主席：劉部長、李次長有請。"],["劉部長世芳：高金委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：好，早安。今天我們在內政委員會要討論的是增訂國定假日的議題，其實這是工會還有包括30萬原住民勞工在內的所有勞工8年來一直說「還我7天假」運動的延續。我們回憶一下，他們是從2000年開始就提出訴求，希望縮短工時，也就是週休二日，在15年之後，政府才把法定的工時縮短到每週40個小時，勞動部次長，你應該很清楚，但是一直以來為了怕得罪大老闆們，我們的政府又把週休二日訂成了一例一休，勞工是這當中的唯一輸家。而這8年來我們看一下工會還有勞工，他們透過集會抗議，你看一下照片，讓你回憶一下，工會集會抗議、遊行、寫血書、絕食，進行非常多的活動，就是希望政府能夠還給勞工7天的假期，在這當中對於我們政府每一次的說法，工會和勞工們也非常理直氣壯地反駁，廣大的勞工朋友都非常支持恢復這些被刪除的國假，這才是沒有打折、明確地落實人權兩公約裡面的勞動人權條款。所以我認為有為的政府、負責任的政府應該要把被刪除的7天國定假日全數恢復放假，請問部長跟次長的意見，做簡短的說明，好嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝高金委員的垂詢，我想我們尊重高金委員對於勞工所提放假議題的意見，但是據我所了解的，蔡總統所謂的還勞工7天假的前言跟後語應該要一起來看……"],["高金委員素梅：他說勞工是他心中最軟的一塊。"],["劉部長世芳：因為當時並沒有所謂的週休二日的部分，到目前為止，我們累計的週休二日加在一起，全國的放假日有115天到116天，跟當時只有不到90天或100天，時間差非常多。"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以我現在要求的就是，因為今天召委有排了，所以大家好好地來討論，唯一的重點是剛剛次長所說的，希望還給勞工該有的權益，對不對？既然是還給勞工權益的話，我就希望我們能夠來討論，可以嗎？然後真正地把權益還給勞工，真正地要恢復人權兩公約裡面的勞動人權，可以嗎？我不要花太多的時間問你們這個，我們來討論，您說好不好？"],["李次長健鴻：我們認為這個案子本來就有討論的空間，沒有錯。"],["高金委員素梅：好，可以討論。請兩位先回，謝謝。","請原民會主委。"],["主席：曾主委有請。"],["高金委員素梅：主委，你對於我們幾個原住民委員所提的歲時祭儀要放假這件事情有什麼看法？"],["曾主任委員智勇：對於歲時祭儀放假，我們是很樂觀，尤其因為原住民在歲時祭儀時都要回到自己的部落，所以大家都希望能夠放3天假，這是有原因的，因為部落整個的祭儀不會只有1天，有時候是3天，有時候是1個禮拜，甚至有的是1個月，所以我們認為應該是要這樣子來體諒我們自己的族人。"],["高金委員素梅：好，曾主委，您是跟族人站在一起的，所以希望你把這個聲音好好地跟我們的內政部部長來討論一下，讓他清楚部落的狀況。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：第二個，我也有提到原住民族歷史轉型正義日還有原住民族抵抗日，您的看法呢？"],["曾主任委員智勇：我想因為這是值得紀念的時間，我們也建議是不是就尊重委員的這個建議，那我們是不是跟內政部、相關部會來……"],["高金委員素梅：好，您知道我提的10月31號、6月26號這兩個日子有什麼意義嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：一個是強制沒收我們原住民土地的那個……"],["高金委員素梅：很好，我完整地講一下，10月31號這一天對於我們原住民是非常重要的，因為在1895年10月31號殖民的日本總督府片面發布了蕃地等於無主地、等於官有地的日令第26號，這項命令強制沒收了臺灣原住民族數千年來賴以生存的土地跟領域，這使我們原住民流離失所，淪為邊緣的群體，而這個殖民命令一直到1945年臺灣光復之後才被廢止。但是儘管這樣，你也很清楚，原住民當初被沒收的土地還有領域沒有全部歸還給我們，在1947年國民政府直接沿襲了日本殖民者的蕃人所要地規定，改名為山地保留地，所以我講的原住民的這兩個日子跟政權沒有關係，跟誰執政沒有關係，跟政黨沒有關係，它是原住民的轉型正義。好，我們看到在1994年又改名為現在的原住民保留地，所以當時這二十四萬多公頃的蕃人所要地是按照當時殖民普查原住民的人口是8萬人，以8萬人每個人3萬公頃的基準所算出來的，可是現在原住民的人口有多少？主委，你很清楚，有將近60萬人。"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：但是我們的保留地、可以讓我們維生的還是停留在二十四萬多公頃，所以這就是1980年代原住民族發動「還我土地」運動最重要的原因，這是殖民和威權體制為了經濟掠奪還有節省統治的成本，對原住民的土地還有領域不正義的剝奪，所以我認為10月31號應該要定為臺灣原住民族的歷史轉型正義日，以上我提的這段歷史正不正確？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是，我們尊重委員的……"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以你也同意，對吧？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：不管放不放假，這一天一定要作為歷史轉型正義日。另外，為什麼要有原住民族抵抗日，您知道嗎？主委，我還提了6月26號這一天，沒關係，因為今天時間有限，主委，你看連你都不知道，更何況我們全國人民，更何況我們的族人！現在民進黨政府一直在講反威權，一直在講轉型正義，就是要切割原住民的正義，所以6月26號這一天非常地重要。我們看一下，在1910年日本殖民總督佐久間左馬太對臺灣原住民發動了5年的理蕃戰爭，他企圖由北到南要全面殲滅原住民族的抵抗者，是為了什麼？就是山林資源。在1914年佐久間左馬太動員了軍、警、民總共2萬人，他攻打不到3,000人的太魯閣戰士，最後在6月26號這一天佐久間左馬太在立霧溪畔的西拉歐卡夫尼被我們太魯閣族人伏擊，他重傷落馬、因而死亡，這是臺灣原住民族抗日戰役中非常重要的歷史性的勝利，所以我認為我們應該要把6月26號這一天定為原住民族的抵抗日，這對於現在我們政府一直在談的全民原教有積極的意義，所以我們原住民要秉持這樣的對抗精神，實現原住民土地的轉型正義，你同意嗎？"],["曾主任委員智勇：同意。"],["高金委員素梅：好，我花一點時間再給大家看一下，這不是只有臺灣原住民高金素梅在這邊喊喔！我就簡單提兩個例子，第一個，這是世界的潮流，我們看其他的國家，在2002年委內瑞拉總統查維茲他把10月12號（即以前所稱哥倫布登陸美洲的這一天）改成什麼？原住民族的抵抗日，因為對委內瑞拉的原住民來說，這一天也是我們的抵抗日；再來，2011年玻利維亞政府把這一天（即10月12號）訂為去殖民化日。所以這是世界潮流，不是只有原住民族，不是只有臺灣，更何況民進黨政府不斷口口聲聲說臺灣原住民族是臺灣的主人，既然是主人的話，我們就應該讓我們全民、讓原住民的孩子清楚知道原住民族的歷史日子，這才符合全民原教，這才符合所謂的轉型正義，好嗎？所以主委你都同意？"],["曾主任委員智勇：是。"],["高金委員素梅：所以到時候我們在討論的時候，希望您跟行政院、希望您跟我們的部長能夠把這段歷史再說明一段給他們聽，好不好？"],["曾主任委員智勇：好。"],["高金委員素梅：我也希望我們召委能夠儘早安排逐條審查，也讓原住民的轉型正義及早實現，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅委員的質詢。","下一位我們請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159251","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159251","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb2c3f5985528cb67c100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e91d9771c6b83d88dd95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:22:24 - 10:32:18","影片長度":"00:09:54","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T10:22:24+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T10:32:18+08:00","duration":594,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.45159375,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.04221875,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.15971875,"end":14.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.218468750000003,"end":15.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.25221875,"end":15.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.26909375,"end":15.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.52221875,"end":15.657218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.910343750000003,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.46721875,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.39096875,"end":26.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.86221875,"end":27.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.55409375,"end":33.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.48971875,"end":40.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.969718750000006,"end":47.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.28096875,"end":60.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.13971875,"end":60.156593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.73034375,"end":61.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.962218750000005,"end":62.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.21534375,"end":84.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.68971875000001,"end":78.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.00159375,"end":81.08159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.14471875000001,"end":82.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.74346875,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.60409375,"end":91.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.10596875,"end":87.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.98284375,"end":94.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.07096875,"end":97.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.60221875,"end":103.69409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.58846875,"end":109.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.70159375,"end":113.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.36346875000001,"end":120.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.26534375000001,"end":120.70409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.73784375000001,"end":120.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.77159375000001,"end":130.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.58846875,"end":145.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.13471875000002,"end":148.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.44221875000002,"end":163.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.56659375,"end":167.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.10221875000002,"end":165.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.88659375,"end":170.13096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.58659375000002,"end":175.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.66596875000002,"end":185.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.48284375,"end":186.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.51221875000002,"end":192.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.47346875000002,"end":198.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.23221875000002,"end":199.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.32471875000002,"end":200.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.80971875,"end":201.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.07971875,"end":201.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.11346875,"end":203.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.16784375,"end":206.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.67784375000002,"end":223.23659375000003},{"speake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我請內政部長跟勞動部次長劉部長 李次長有請稍微好來 不敢齁 來那個部長 其實關於這個放假其實每個會期 每一屆幾乎都有討論過吧 對不對對那為什麼沒有辦法做成決定因為牽扯的太多了 是不是"},{"start":35.02,"end":59.516,"text":"對 因為加入太多不同的因素不是只有純粹訂定這個節日跟紀念日而已如果純粹訂定節日跟紀念日的話站在內政部的權責方向的話會比較單純但是因為牽涉到哪一個部門或是哪一個企業或是哪一個職業哪一種身份要放假那放假的問題就是一個很大需要大家有不同的爭點 需要有泥鋸共識"},{"start":60.917,"end":83.819,"text":"對嘛 所以部長其實剛剛那個遊委員在問的時候有說什麼這個放假日要不要增加其實我覺得部長整個內政部目前應該也是持開放的態度但是大家要討論嘛 是的沒錯是不是開放的討論 是開放的大家要討論嘛 因為這牽扯到"},{"start":85.696,"end":109.119,"text":"其他部會啊對不對 我剛剛也有委員在問啊好啊 要家庭日要什麼 我想請問一下春節連假是不是都很多天是 今年剛過去的滿多天的每年都有好幾天啦 對不對那關於交通運輸業的勞工要不要上班"},{"start":109.758,"end":127.909,"text":"他們當然都要上班而且要上非常常識的班不管交通運輸業或是其他的服務業或者是警察或者是消防等等這些都是要24小時待班的我們先不用管到警消我們先講一般的對不對你一般的我們就做簡單的出國搭飛機"},{"start":131.653,"end":148.337,"text":"要不要有空服人員要不要有人服務你飛機才能飛啊對不對那你就要反加你的公車你的這個高鐵要不要有人開這些的勞工是不是有上班啊這個可以請勞動部次長回答"},{"start":150.458,"end":169.437,"text":"那個先前我報告的時候已經提到我們很多行業他是一般的民眾在放假休息的時候他反而是他的工作的高峰期他必須要輪班來提供服務符合大眾需要對嘛再來這個是大型的如果是小型企業"},{"start":171.178,"end":184.804,"text":"兩三個人的這種小型企業他們沒有辦法就我必須要講他有辦法說如果沒逢放假日他就放假嗎"},{"start":187.577,"end":206.076,"text":"這個就像剛剛我講如果是像觀光業、旅宿業甚至運輸業、航空業他們就是一般民眾在休息的時候他就是他服務的高峰他可能就沒有辦法我們先不管啦一個小管制他可能請的服務人員只有兩三個啊對不對那放假日他要不要上班"},{"start":207.748,"end":225.584,"text":"你也不能說他要不要上班吧對不對但有可能老闆請他來上班啊對不對那他如果來上班當然就要加倍的薪資啊啊不然他就不然他就是這個老闆娘可能就把店關掉了啊沒有人啊對不對那再來大型的企業"},{"start":227.06,"end":237.299,"text":"我們舉台積電或什麼大型的是不是都三班輪流制基本上都是輪班制的日月輪班他們受的衝擊"},{"start":239.229,"end":261.604,"text":"可能就比較小一點對不對是不是啊還是一樣衝擊很大你說衝擊還是蠻大的這種日夜輪班制如果他剛好碰到那個要放假的話國定假他一樣因為他排班就要出席那你還是要給他那個工資要加倍的我必須說啦工資加倍像大型企業"},{"start":262.847,"end":274.226,"text":"他還可以承擔啦還不至於把他逼出走啦但我剛舉的那種小型企業老闆老闆娘可能就我覺得我不要做了啊"},{"start":275.265,"end":301.617,"text":"對不對你有沒有看到很多那種小管子或什麼的他因為沒有請不到人所以他歇業社長報紙你有沒有常看到有有去年開始就陸續有這種報導有嘛對不對所以你說要不要放假我覺得這可以討論但如果說我現在看到這20幾個版本哇"},{"start":302.935,"end":328.579,"text":"又要有紀念日又要放假我覺得這樣子沒有好好的討論我真的覺得不行這個會造成混亂所以劉部長我個人是覺得你現在有很多的這一種紀念日其實我們現在就是有紀念沒有放假是不是是的有相當多是屬於有紀念沒放假的"},{"start":329.673,"end":355.343,"text":"所以我們在討論這一個我們要不要修法的這個問題上我覺得我們應該要先確定一個紀念日可能很多有兩種一種是全國或是因為風俗民情的那種紀念日那種是全國全台灣一致的那一種可能是對特定的可能軍人節警察節什麼的這部分人的是不是應該要先把它分成這兩種"},{"start":356.494,"end":380.212,"text":"是 在我們的實施辦法 我們自己的實施法則裡面就是提到是這一方面的沒有錯所以相當多您所提到的什麼軍人節 警察節 消防節或是甚至兵役節等等這些它其實就是有紀念 但是沒有放假對嘛 我們要先分成這樣嘛 這一個那再來"},{"start":382.544,"end":396.062,"text":"以現行的法律條文的制度有沒有需要修法沒有修法要不要去增加放假或什麼的其實你們本來就有紀念日的放假辦法了吧"},{"start":397.236,"end":420.254,"text":"本来就有但是我们现在我跟委员报告一下委员非常的清楚其实我们在处理有关于放假与否都是以行政院人事总处在前一年度的年底的时候对外公布让很多公部门或是很多其他的大型企业部门可以跟着这样子的放假的脚步所以我们认为这样比较有弹性包括补班"},{"start":420.774,"end":438.582,"text":"不不不部長你說的那個是私刑的現行的制度現行他只是說規定放假幾天什麼我的意思是說以如果我們剛剛講的紀念日分兩種那種其實要不要其實這個在內政部裡面的辦法裡面就可以處理這個問題是的對不對對"},{"start":440.683,"end":457.016,"text":"不用修法你們就可以處理了吧對嘛這是一個嘛所以我們應該要聚焦到說你的辦法目前就可以處理這一個問題對不對部長是所以才會衍生第二個要不要放假要怎麼樣的問題吧對不對是"},{"start":460.02,"end":474.105,"text":"是的對不對那個放假什麼的那是第二個問題所以我在說我們今天在討論這個法律我必須要說大家要及時廣義啦不是不能討論但急不得因為它牽扯得太廣了"},{"start":475.686,"end":478.648,"text":"我們應該把它分成幾個區塊來討論然後牽扯那麼多部會一個一個來處理我覺得這樣子才是一個負責任的做法我不知道部長跟次長你們的看法"},{"start":492.14,"end":513.121,"text":"我先來回答啦剛剛那個委員召委所提到的部分在我們現行的紀念日跟節日實施辦法裡面的第五條之二他就有特別提到說規定紀念日跟節日以外具特殊意義有慶祝或舉辦活動必要之日由目的事業主管機關會商有關機關訂定實施之"},{"start":515.063,"end":533.829,"text":"也就是說現行的這個實施辦法呢其實就已經可以解決現在大家所關心的這個不同的議題那如果把它變成是一個法律案的話我們有可能每一年不同的放假那每一年都要回到立法院再修一次法律那這個會增加這個法律上適用的一個彈性程度對對好 那次長你簡單說"},{"start":536.87,"end":561.818,"text":"勞動部主張就是說必須要通盤檢討各行各業的餘營模式還有工作狀況那還有我們特別關心勞工的期待跟需求讓勞工能夠更好的休息對啦所以啦其實以現有的辦法也可以解決然後各部會其實也都持開放的態度要來解決這個問題只是我們應該要多討論那其實啦有一個重點啦"},{"start":563.086,"end":589.06,"text":"今年的放假人事行政總局他都已經公布了啦你要也很難去修改去增加啦所以我們還有半年的時間可以好好來討論這個問題明年把它解決啦我覺得這才是我們應該要去解決的方案那我們也不一定說要拖到半年但是就是時間充裕我認為應該要多多的討論這因為畢竟影響各行各業太多了啦好 謝謝"},{"start":592.196,"end":594.027,"text":"好 謝謝張宏祿委員 休息三分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":535,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時22分）我請內政部長跟勞動部次長。"],["主席：有請劉部長、李次長。"],["劉部長世芳：召委好。"],["張委員宏陸：部長，關於這個放假，其實每一屆、每個會期幾乎都有討論過，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["張委員宏陸：為什麼沒有辦法做成決定？因為牽扯的部分太多了，是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：對，因為加入太多不同的因素，不是只有純粹訂定節日跟紀念日而已，如果是純粹訂定節日跟紀念日，站在內政部的權責方向，我覺得會比較單純，但是因為又牽涉到哪一個部門，或是哪一個企業，或是哪一個職業，或是哪一種身分要放假的問題，大家有不同的爭點，需要凝聚共識。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！剛剛有委員在問放假日要不要增加一事，其實我覺得整個內政部目前應該也是持開放的態度，但是大家要討論，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，沒錯，是開放的。"],["張委員宏陸：大家來討論嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：對。"],["張委員宏陸：因為這牽扯到其他部會，對不對？剛剛也有委員在問，要有所謂家庭日等等什麼的，我想請問一下，春節連假是不是都放很多天？"],["劉部長世芳：是，今年剛過去的春節連假是滿多天的。"],["張委員宏陸：每年都有好幾天，對不對？請問交通運輸業的勞工要不要上班？"],["劉部長世芳：他們當然都要上班，而且要上非常長時的班，不管交通運輸業或者是其他的服務業，或者是警察，或者是消防等等，這些都是24小時待班的。"],["張委員宏陸：先不用管到警消，我們先講一般的，簡單來說，出國搭飛機要不要有空服人員？要不要有人服務，飛機才能飛？返家時需要的公車或是高鐵，要不要有人開？這些勞工是不是有上班？請勞動部次長回答。"],["李次長健鴻：委員好。先前我報告的時候已經提到，很多行業是一般民眾在放假休息的時候，反而是他工作的高峰期，他必須輪班來提供服務，以符合大眾需要。"],["張委員宏陸：這個是大型的部分，如果是兩、三個人的小型企業，我必須要講，他們有辦法每逢放假日就放假嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：就像剛剛我講的，如果是觀光業、旅宿業，甚至是運輸業、航空業，一般民眾在休息的時候，就是他們服務的高峰，可能就沒有辦法放假。"],["張委員宏陸：我們先不管啦！像一個小館子，可能請的服務人員只有兩、三個，那放假日他要不要上班？有可能老闆請他要來上班，如果他來上班，當然就要發加倍的薪資，不然老闆娘可能就把店關掉了，因為沒有人來上班，對不對？再來，我們舉台積電或什麼大型企業為例，是不是都三班輪流制？"],["李次長健鴻：是，基本上都是日夜輪班制的。"],["張委員宏陸：就是日夜輪班，而他們受的衝擊可能就比較小一點，對不對？還是一樣衝擊很大呢？"],["李次長健鴻：衝擊還是滿大的，這種日夜輪班制，如果剛好碰到要放假、放國定假日，因為他排班了就要出勤，所以你還是要給他工資加倍。"],["張委員宏陸：我必須說，工資加倍，像大型企業還可以承擔，還不至於逼它出走，但我剛舉的那種小型企業，老闆、老闆娘可能就覺得乾脆不要做了，你有沒有看到很多小館子或是什麼的，因為請不到人，所以就歇業了，次長在報紙上有沒有常看到？"],["李次長健鴻：有，去年開始就陸續有這種報導。"],["張委員宏陸：有嘛！所以要不要放假，這是可以討論，而我現在看到這二十幾個版本，裡面又要有紀念日、又要放假，這樣子若沒有好好地討論，我真的覺得不行，這會造成混亂。劉部長，我個人覺得，現在有很多種紀念日，其實是有紀念、沒放假，是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，有相當多是屬於有紀念、沒放假的。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我們在討論這個要不要修法的問題上，應該要先確定一個部分，紀念日有兩種，一種是全國或是因為風俗民情的那種紀念日，那種是全國、全臺灣一致的；一種可能是對特定人士的，可能是軍人節、警察節什麼的，所以是不是應該要先把它分成這兩種？"],["劉部長世芳：在我們的實施辦法、實施法則裡面，是有提到這一方面，沒有錯，像您所提到的警察節、消防節，甚至兵役節等等，其實就是有紀念但是沒有放假。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！我們要先分成這樣。","再來，以現行法律條文的制度來看，有沒有需要修法？沒有修法，要不要去增加放假或什麼的，其實，你們本來就有紀念日的放假辦法了吧？"],["劉部長世芳：本來就有，但是我跟委員報告一下，委員非常清楚，其實我們在處理有關於放假與否，都是以行政院人事總處在前一年度年底的時候對外公布，讓很多公部門或是很多其他的大型企業部門可以跟著這樣放假的腳步，所以我們認為這樣比較有彈性，包括補班在內。"],["張委員宏陸：不！不！部長，你說的那個是施行的……"],["劉部長世芳：現行的制度。"],["張委員宏陸：現行只是規定放假幾天什麼的，我的意思是說，如果以我剛剛講的紀念日分兩種，那在內政部的辦法裡面就可以處理這個問題了，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["張委員宏陸：不用修法你們就可以處理了吧？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我們應該要聚焦的是你的辦法目前就可以處理這一個問題，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以才會衍生第二個要不要放假或是要怎麼樣的問題，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我們今天在討論這個法律，我必須要說，大家要集思廣益，不是不能討論，但急不得，因為它牽扯得太廣了，我們應該把它分成幾個區塊來討論；而且也牽扯那麼多部會，應一個一個來處理，我覺得這樣子才是一個負責任的作法，部長跟次長你們的看法呢？"],["劉部長世芳：我先來回答，剛剛召委所提到的部分，在我們現行的紀念日及節日實施辦法第五條之二就有特別提到，紀念日跟節日以外具特殊意義，有慶祝或舉辦活動必要之日，得由目的事業主管機關會商有關機關訂定實施之。也就是說，現行的實施辦法，其實已經可以解決現在大家所關心的不同議題，如果把它變成是一個法律案的話，有可能每一年不同的放假，變成每一年都要回到立法院再修一次法律，這會增加法律適用的彈性程度。"],["張委員宏陸：對。請次長簡單說一下。"],["李次長健鴻：勞動部主張，必須要通盤檢討各行各業的營運模式還有工作狀況，還有，我們特別關心勞工的期待跟需求，讓勞工能夠有更好的休息。"],["張委員宏陸：所以其實現有的辦法也可以解決，然後各部會也都持開放的態度要來解決這個問題，只是我們應該要多討論。其實有一個重點，今年的放假，人事行政總處都已經公布了，即使你要改也很難去修改、去增加，所以我們還有半年的時間可以好好來討論這個問題，明年把它解決啦！我覺得這才是我們應該要採取的解決方案，那我們也不一定說要拖到半年，但是既然時間充裕，我認為應該要多多地討論，因為畢竟影響各行各業太多了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員。","休息3分鐘。","休息（10時32分）","繼續開會（10時37分）"],["主席：報告各位同仁，我們繼續開會。","下一位我們請高金素梅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159250","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159250","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbeaba34b762b9fa59100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e918ec77dcdb8ffec4c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:09:39 - 10:22:17","影片長度":"00:12:38","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T10:09:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T10:22:17+08:00","duration":758,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.624718750000001,"end":9.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.25721875,"end":11.219093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.505968750000001,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.037218750000001,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.239718750000002,"end":14.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.10034375,"end":16.011593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.63596875,"end":21.614093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.85034375,"end":25.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.558468750000003,"end":30.945968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.262843750000002,"end":28.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.16534375,"end":33.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.85659375,"end":36.767843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.54409375,"end":38.657843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.759093750000005,"end":48.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.82596875,"end":44.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.33971875,"end":50.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.14534375,"end":87.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.59034375,"end":66.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.24409375,"end":67.61534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.29846875,"end":72.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.16909375,"end":89.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.02534375,"end":92.28659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.62409375,"end":130.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.30284375000001,"end":98.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.16659375,"end":151.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.35221875000002,"end":131.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.73721875,"end":375.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.53034375000001,"end":154.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.80409375000002,"end":156.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.38971875000001,"end":161.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.42659375000002,"end":169.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.50096875,"end":181.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.25034375,"end":189.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.00096875,"end":192.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.73846875,"end":198.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.90971875,"end":346.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.22534375000004,"end":388.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.91534375000003,"end":392.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.97784375000003,"end":394.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.42909375000005,"end":401.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.41971875,"end":401.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.58409375,"end":402.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.22534375000004,"end":429.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.45596875,"end":415.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.85409375,"end":479.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.04534375000003,"end":449.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.39221875000004,"end":469.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.34971875,"end":472.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.99034375,"end":476.78346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.00659375000004,"end":497.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.95096875,"end":487.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.50721875000005,"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有請我們內政部部長劉思邦部長有請麥委員好部長好請教部長一下我們台灣目前我們的國定假日是有可以放多少天國定假日可以放多少天對啊 目前我們台灣是放多少天目前的台灣的國定假日可以放多少天"},{"start":38.857,"end":43.781,"text":"如果週末不算就是六日不算的話是十一天國定假日就十一天覺得這樣子"},{"start":49.563,"end":65.994,"text":"會不會太少因為國定假日有很多我們的紀念日還有就是其他的節日所以我們只有11天但是我看是12天但是不知道是不是說錯了勞動節5月1號是針對全國的勞工"},{"start":70.397,"end":89.285,"text":"所以如果算上去的话是12天但是我们看到的是说我们邻居的国家就像日本韩国泰国他们的放假日我们部长知道是比我们更多吗有多少你知道吗"},{"start":90.346,"end":115.314,"text":"因為麥委員所放在你的Pollpoint上面的很多國家我想就是按照上面的文章所寫的這份對 因為日本 韓國 泰國這個都是放假日是鄰近的國家比我們多對 答案就是說日本是16天我們韓國15天 泰國是20天所以 但是我們台灣的工時又長"},{"start":116.454,"end":129.882,"text":"假日又少 國定假日數量 鄰居的國家又比較低所以我們內政部這邊是否這樣的政策方向你覺得符合我們勞工的需求嗎"},{"start":131.569,"end":150.708,"text":"報告委員內政部所主管的方向就是紀念日跟節日那但是紀念日跟節日要不要放假的問題跟某一些特殊的假日是不是符合勞動的標準那可能還是勞動部來做這個法律上的解釋會比較好"},{"start":152.77,"end":168.001,"text":"我剛有跟委員報告過 它有兩種不同的層次 紀念日跟假日是一個層次 放假是一個層次所以我們才要提出 問你有沒有認同 或者你有沒有參考別的國家 我們再來提出說"},{"start":168.781,"end":176.124,"text":"但是你講的國家就是日本跟韓國但是你所爐裂的部分也是比我們更少的所以我事實上還是一樣我們國家有我們國家的整體的規則所以我們是有少也有多所以我們是要往上不是要看少的所以我們希望說你要做一個比例要來去看來去做一個修法"},{"start":191.809,"end":198.593,"text":"是的不是只有說我們看好不看壞的對不對看壞的怎麼進步啊所以不是修法而是要不要立法的問題對所以我們現在我們要問你這些問題就是說我們台灣民眾黨要提出來的就是主張我們教師節勞動節應列為國定假日希望我們全國統一放假這不僅尊重我們的"},{"start":220.666,"end":233.48,"text":"专业与劳动的价值也是提升劳工与教育工作者的保障所以我们希望说刚才的问你这些就是希望说我们要来去参考"},{"start":236.263,"end":242.71,"text":"各國的我們要來去做修法所以希望我們內政部這邊要支持所以此外我們勞動部目前就是非全國統一放假剛才你有講導致我們的公務人員還有勞工適用的標準又不同"},{"start":256.304,"end":264.111,"text":"所以甚至同一家人可能就出現一人放假一人上班這樣的狀況就影響我們整個社會的公平性與勞動權利所以我希望我們內政部這邊同意說用我們的版本統一放假的標準讓我們勞動節還有真正成為全國的放假日也確保勞動是我們享受同樣的休假權"},{"start":284.508,"end":288.511,"text":"這個就是我們提出的主張所以也部長你覺得要修這樣子是不是符合我們的勞動的權利謝謝麥委員的關心我剛有提到有關於紀念日跟節日的實施辦法是內政部的行政命令那現在我們要討論的是說我們有26個委員的版本希望把這個執法"},{"start":312.55,"end":325.097,"text":"行政命令變成是一個法律案那變成這個法律案在去年的十月下旬的時候內政部委員會邀請的學者專家還有很多工商團體在那邊呢我們非常仔細的拜讀之後仍然是沒有共識"},{"start":329.159,"end":344.99,"text":"那今天呢如果委員有26個委員的提案想把這個實施辦法變成是一個實施法律的法律案的時候就必須要在內政委員會的所有的委員或者是大院的其他委員有共識那我們有共識的話呢我們將會引以共識的方向來執行"},{"start":349.032,"end":372.372,"text":"達成共識才拿出來討論嘛沒有達成共識你決定就好啦所以我們今天就是要達成共識所以先生說你有沒有同意我們各個委員去討論才提出來但是你要同意內政部這邊有這樣子的打算有這樣子的機制我們勞動部也共同來去推但是不管任何委員去問你就說你要問勞動部"},{"start":376.275,"end":401.5,"text":"但是我們內政部也是有相關啊不能說我們就是問老東部還有我們的國定假日又在週二或週四這樣子的請教我們的部長一向現行的制度如何處理我們你覺得如何處理因為現在國定假日如果一到二或四的時候是"},{"start":403.517,"end":428.849,"text":"按照現在的行政命令如果你碰到是週二對不起 週休二日的部分的話通常都會補班對 所以我們才主張嘛所以說我們才主張就是取消就是我們的補班機制讓勞工真正的享受有假期不必要為了一天的放假再來補班這樣的模式的話"},{"start":429.989,"end":444.748,"text":"要对我们的企业还有劳动的双方都是不友善的做法我们希望说我们的内政部这边就是对这样子的补班我们希望是放假就是不要再去"},{"start":445.929,"end":465.246,"text":"這樣子放假就放假不要再去補班所以委員的意思就是說如果有任何我們國定假日是放假然後它是連假的方式然後下個禮拜或是擇期就不要再補班那這個如果你把它訂到我們的一個法律的母法的時候會不會剛好失掉它的彈性我跟委員報告目前我們所彈性是我們是"},{"start":471.971,"end":496.918,"text":"我們的勞工他們有權利去選擇但是我們勞工有權利選擇那軍公教有權利選擇嗎對啊我們就是要我現在我們要定的就是節日跟我們講過我們變成是法律案的時候他的補班日期就不需要有一定的公式是這樣子的話反而失掉彈性是覺得是企業跟勞工"},{"start":498.659,"end":517.837,"text":"你有數據有評估過嗎還是照你說你覺得這樣不合理或者這樣子不需要你有評估過有造成我們勞工跟企業的影響嗎我們的主張我們的要求我們希望說大家支持但是呢我們是有"},{"start":518.658,"end":522.3,"text":"依據有依據大家的需求來去修法但是你說有沒有影響你說這個是造成誰誰誰我們希望我們今天要講的我們希望說企業跟勞工你覺得是補班補假"},{"start":537.466,"end":539.989,"text":"這樣子的話我們提出來你覺得說有影響但是你有沒有依據有沒有評估有沒有數據影響企業還是說我們有提升我們的生產力有沒有明確的數據呢還是說我們提出來你覺得這個不行或者推給勞動部或者推給別人"},{"start":558.306,"end":568.202,"text":"報告委員我剛講過了五一勞動日本來是所有全國的勞工都放假這個跟勞動者原先的勞動權益並沒有影響是但是你把它變成全國一致所以我剛講過了所以我算你是公務人員你不能放"},{"start":573.49,"end":576.551,"text":"但是勞工可以放所以變成我們放假的時間希望多一點時間讓家庭日也家庭共同因為現在我們的工時就很長了但是我們放假就是夫妻放假一個放假一個不放假"},{"start":592.896,"end":596.7,"text":"小孩子又沒有人照顧 又放在家裡所以我們希望我們的國定假日還有就是我們教師節 勞動節我們是可以全國放假報告委員 全國都放假誰去指揮交通 誰去維持治安 誰去保護國家安全"},{"start":615.734,"end":638.168,"text":"全國放假但是你覺得這樣子的話我們公司放假我們整個政府所以我剛剛講過五一勞動日本來就全國的勞工都放假我問你這樣子說我們政府沒有放假我們勞工放假你們政府放假的時候我們勞工要去辦事情誰來辦我們政府不要講你們政府不是啊所以說我們的公務人員如果公務人員全部放假"},{"start":638.988,"end":645.01,"text":"我們勞工要來去辦事情所以你們公務人員全部放假的話勞工找誰來辦對不對 我們教師姐我們勞工放假 教師姐不放假所以她的小孩誰來照顧所以我們希望說我們要對勞工我們是有分公職跟勞工我們是要有公務人員"},{"start":664.335,"end":672.1,"text":"但是大家都是在為上班的時間是一樣的我們就是早上晚上這樣但是我們要去定這樣子的話我們變成我們影響整個家庭現在大家生育率都很少了如果整個家庭都沒有家庭日所以這樣子的話我覺得部長我們要求這樣子我覺得是很人性很符合我們的家庭"},{"start":692.652,"end":699.795,"text":"希望我們的家庭更好因為每一個人在外打拼都是為了我們的家庭為了我們的小孩但是公放假婆不放假婆放假公不放假小孩就是沒人照顧所以變成我們要一致性讓大家有這個家庭日所以希望說我們部長要回應不好意思"},{"start":719.11,"end":721.792,"text":"我們的休假是勞動基準的權利也因為我們的工時太長所以我們希望視為說同樣的教師節還有勞動節是各放一天還有我們希望也不要再去補班所以保障我們的權利還有交易"},{"start":740.409,"end":743.611,"text":"的工作權利以上希望我們的部長就是要謹慎去考慮我們的權利讓我們家庭更幸福更美滿還有經濟更好以上謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":478,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（10時9分）主席好。有請我們內政部部長。"],["主席：劉世芳部長，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。請教部長，我們臺灣目前的國定假日是可以放多少天？"],["劉部長世芳：國定假日可以放多少天？"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！目前我們臺灣是放多少天？"],["劉部長世芳：目前臺灣的國定假日，如果週末不算，就是六、日不算的話，是11天。"],["麥委員玉珍：國定假日只有11天？你覺得這樣會不會太少？因為國定假日有很多紀念日，還有其他的節日，所以我們只有11天，可是我看是12天，但是不知道是不是說錯？"],["劉部長世芳：勞動節5月1日是針對全國的勞工。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，所以也是嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：所以這一天如果算上去的話，是12天。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，但是我們看到我們鄰近的國家，就像日本、韓國、泰國，他們的放假日，部長知道是比我們更多嗎？有多少，你知道嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：因為麥委員放在你的powerpoint上面的很多國家，我想就是按照上面國家所寫的部分……"],["麥委員玉珍：因為日本、韓國、泰國這些鄰近國家的放假日比我們多，答案就是日本是16天，韓國15天，泰國是20天，但是我們臺灣的工時又長，假日又少，國定假日數量比鄰近的國家又較低，所以內政部這樣的政策方向，你覺得符合我們勞工的需求嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，內政部所主管的方向就是紀念日跟節日，但是紀念日跟節日要不要放假的問題，跟某一些特殊的假日是不是符合勞動標準，可能還是勞動部來做這個法律上的解釋會比較好。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，所以……"],["劉部長世芳：因為我剛也跟委員報告過，它有兩種不同的層次……"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯……"],["劉部長世芳：紀念日跟假日是一個層次，放假是一個層次。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，所以我們才要提出嘛！就是要問你有沒有認同，或者有沒有參考別的國家案例，我們再來提出……"],["劉部長世芳：是，你講的國家就是日本跟韓國，但是你所臚列的部分也是比我們更少的，所以事實上我還是一樣，我們國家有我們國家的整體規劃，我們要考量很多綜合的部分。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，所以我們是少，沒有多嘛！我們是要往上，不是要看少的。我們希望你要做出一個比例來去看……"],["劉部長世芳：當然。"],["麥委員玉珍：來去做修法，不是只有說我們看好沒看壞，對不對？看壞的，我們要進步啊！"],["劉部長世芳：不過我們還沒有訂定成法律，所以不是修法，而是要不要立法的問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，所以現在我問你這些問題，就是台灣民眾黨提出來的，我們主張教師節、勞動節應列為國定假日，希望全國統一放假，這不僅尊重專業與勞動價值，也是提升勞工與教育工作者的保障，所以我剛才問你的這些問題，就是希望參考各國例子，再加以修法，也希望得到內政部這邊的支持。","此外，勞動節目前就是非全國統一放假，這個剛才你也講過，導致公務人員及勞工適用的標準不一樣，甚至同一家人可能出現一人放假、一人上班的狀況，影響到整個社會的公平性與勞動權利，所以我希望內政部可以同意用我們版本所提出的統一放假的標準，讓勞動節真正成為全國的放假日，也確保勞動者可以享受到同樣的休假權，這就是我們提出的主張。部長，你覺得這樣的修法，是不是符合我們的勞動權利？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝麥委員的關心，我剛剛有提到，紀念日及節日實施辦法是內政部的行政命令，現在我們要討論的是，現在有26個委員的版本，希望把這個子法、行政命令變成是法律案。針對是否變成法律案，去年10月下旬，內政委員會曾邀請學者專家，還有很多工商團體討論，當時我們非常仔細拜讀之後，仍然沒有共識，今天如果委員會有26個委員的提案，想把這個實施辦法變成是實施法律的法律案時，那就必須內政委員會所有委員或者是大院其他委員都有共識，如果有共識，我們當然會以凝聚共識的方向來執行。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個問題我們知道要達成共識，才能拿出來討論，沒有達成共識，你決定就好啦！所以我們今天……"],["劉部長世芳：我不敢。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以今天要達成共識，才問你有沒有同意我們各個委員討論提出來的，你要同意，而內政部這邊也有這樣的打算、這樣的機制，然後勞動部也共同來推動啊！但是不管任何委員問你，你都說要問勞動部，但這與內政部也有相關，不能說就是問勞動部啊！請教部長，如果我們的國定假日是在週二或週四，依現行制度，如何處理？你覺得要如何處理？就是國定假日如果是週一、週二或週四的時候？"],["劉部長世芳：按照現在的行政命令，如果碰到週二，對不起，週休二日的部分，通常都會補班……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，所以我們才主張嘛！"],["劉部長世芳：也就是說，有連續假日，以後再補班。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們才主張取消補班機制，讓勞工真正享受假期，不必為了一天的放假再來補班，這樣的模式，對企業和勞動雙方都是不友善的作法，我們希望放假就是放假，不要再補班。"],["劉部長世芳：委員的意思是，如果有任何國定假日是放假，然後是連假方式，那麼下個禮拜或擇期就不要再補班？"],["麥委員玉珍：對。"],["劉部長世芳：可是如果把它訂到法律的母法時，會不會剛好失掉它的彈性？跟委員報告，目前我們所……"],["麥委員玉珍：彈性是我們訂了……"],["劉部長世芳：什麼時候補班……"],["麥委員玉珍：勞工有權利選擇，但是我們現在……"],["劉部長世芳：勞工有權利選擇，那軍公教有權利選擇嗎？"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！現在我們要訂的就是勞動日要統一放假……"],["劉部長世芳：我剛剛講過，變成是法律案的時候，補班日期就必須要有一定公式才能夠入法，這樣反而失掉彈性。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長覺得對企業跟勞工有影響，這你有數據、有評估過嗎？還是照你說的，你覺得這樣不合理或者不需要？你有評估過對勞工和企業造成的影響嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我剛剛有提過……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們的主張、我們的要求希望大家能支持，而且我們是有依據的，依據大家的需求來修法，現在你說有影響，會造成誰、誰、誰的影響，針對企業跟勞工我們提出來的，你覺得補班、補假有影響，但是你有沒有依據、有沒有評估、有沒有數據？會影響企業，還是會提升生產力？你有沒有明確數據？還是你就覺得我們提出來的不行，又或者推給勞動部或推給別人？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我剛講過了，五一勞動日本來就是全國所有勞工都放假，這個跟勞動者原先的勞動權益並沒有影響，但是你把它變成全國一致……"],["麥委員玉珍：是，我們是說全國一致，譬如你是公務人員，不能放假，但勞工可以放，本來我們放假是希望多一點時間可以家庭共同放假，因為我們的工時很長，結果我們現在放假，變成夫妻一個放假、一個不放假，小孩子放在家裡又沒有人照顧，所以我們才希望國定假日，還有教師節、勞動節可以全國放假，這樣才符合我們家庭……"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，全國都放假，那誰去指揮交通、誰去維持治安、誰去保護國家安全？"],["麥委員玉珍：全國放假，但是你覺得這樣的話，公司放假，整個政府……"],["劉部長世芳：所以我剛講過，五一勞動日本來就是全國勞工都放假。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，那我問你，政府沒有放假，勞工放假，但有時候是你們政府放假，我們勞工要去辦事情時，由誰來辦？"],["劉部長世芳：是「我們政府」，不要講「你們政府」，你也是政府之一。"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！如果公務人員全部放假，勞工要去辦事情，要找誰來辦？對不對？教師節時，勞工不放假，那他的小孩要由誰來照顧？社會有分公職的公務人員跟勞工，大家上班的時間應該是一樣的，就是早上、晚上，但現在因為放假這樣規定，就會影響到整個家庭。現在生育率已經很低了，如果整個家庭都沒有家庭日，如何提升生育率？部長，我們的要求，我覺得很有人性，也很符合家庭需求，希望我們的家庭可以更好，因為每一個人在外打拼都是為了家庭、為了我們的小孩，但是公放假、婆不放假；或婆放假、公不放假，小孩就沒人照顧，所以我們希望有一致性，讓大家有家庭日，這點希望部長可以回應。休假是勞動基準的權利，也因為我們的工時太長，所以希望教師節還有勞動節各放一天，還有我們希望也不要再去補班，以保障我們的權益還有教育工作者的權利。以上建議，希望部長能謹慎去考慮我們的權利，讓我們的家庭更幸福、更美滿，還有經濟會更好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員。","下一位我們請張宏陸召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159249","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159249","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbcb7767cad65b1aef100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e91b48ae4d373597ae25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:57:43 - 10:09:33","影片長度":"00:11:50","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T09:57:43+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T10:09:33+08:00","duration":710,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.333468750000002,"end":14.239718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.47596875,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":19.555343750000002,"end":20.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.449718750000002,"end":29.410343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.832218750000003,"end":35.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.21096875,"end":48.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.85034375,"end":56.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.579093750000006,"end":63.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.98721875000001,"end":106.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.57971875000001,"end":108.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.53721875000001,"end":117.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.29534375,"end":117.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":117.39659375000001,"end":136.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":136.83659375000002,"end":144.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":144.19409375,"end":201.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.73034375,"end":169.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.82221875000002,"end":203.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":202.21034375000002,"end":203.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":203.15534375000001,"end":203.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.93159375000002,"end":240.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.98784375000002,"end":223.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.71909375,"end":245.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":245.71409375000002,"end":255.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":256.09221875000003,"end":274.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":271.16159375,"end":271.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.43096875000003,"end":283.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":283.21034375,"end":286.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":286.33221875000004,"end":300.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.08596875,"end":300.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.96284375000005,"end":303.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":303.32534375,"end":305.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.80596875000003,"end":332.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.94096875,"end":346.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":346.72784375000003,"end":361.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":362.15159375,"end":363.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.51409375000003,"end":367.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":367.65284375000005,"end":374.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.67284375,"end":379.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":381.67596875000004,"end":381.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.33409375,"end":383.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.77659375,"end":386.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.75534375,"end":387.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.05471875,"end":389.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":389.97846875000005,"end":390.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":392.00346875,"end":393.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.38221875000005,"end":398.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.73659375000005,"end":400.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":400.76159375000003,"end":421.55159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.51346875,"end":423.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.16721875,"end":424.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.14596875,"end":427.2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滲透的威脅只是內政部就劉氏方部長您要建立宗教團體等公益組織赴中國交流之揭露制度以防渡中國的干預及統戰那其實宗教團體在賴總統的新聞記者會之後其實就已經提出嚴重的反彈他認為說其實這樣子"},{"start":88.237,"end":104.562,"text":"是變相的鎖國那教育界也是還是鼓勵這個學子要多多交流那我想請教就是說部長你在1月17號在宗教私務諮詢委員會的會議中也表示兩岸宗教交流要秉持對等尊嚴的原則"},{"start":105.322,"end":116.15,"text":"那請問現在您的對準原則的定義是什麼有沒有現在的交流真的有像賴總統講的有需要有受到中國的干預局統戰嗎謝謝謝謝委員的垂詢"},{"start":120.793,"end":138.146,"text":"我想我的立場都沒有改變對等尊嚴還要加上健康有序那目前內政部在處理兩岸的宗教團體的交流的時候呢如果他是團體性的交流那當然他是要登記要申請為原則我想張委員非常清楚我們上個月我們中國佛教會的這個這個理事長才剛剛原籍那個時候呢他們有邀請這個中國的大山裡面的很多長老"},{"start":149.814,"end":168.203,"text":"到台灣來參加這樣子的原籍的法會的時候所申請的每一位我們都讓他通過到台灣來沒有問題所以健康有序的部分只要他是屬於宗教團體而且是正信不是邪教的話我們都會完全的尊重而且都沒有問題"},{"start":168.943,"end":173.589,"text":"但是重要的部分是我們台灣有一些團體也是宗教團體到中國大陸去的時候到目前為止在安全上面仍然出了狀況譬如說台灣有一貫道還有統一教的幾個教友"},{"start":187.085,"end":210.531,"text":"到目前為止呢仍然是屬於這個沒有自由跟關押的狀態所以我們所說的對等尊嚴跟健康有序我們很希望說兩邊的宗教團體基於宗教交流的原則我們都是開放的而且沒有任何的限制好那部長那我請教一下初步您這邊內政部有提出相關的揭露制度大概會什麼時候公佈嗎"},{"start":211.351,"end":239.837,"text":"那現在宗教團體我想他們最緊張的因為其實就像部長講的現在的交流往來是很順暢的那當然會有一些個案我也希望政府單位要積極的去處理讓保證我們國人的安全其實宗教團體現在出國其實大家國人出國大概都會經過大概都政府都知道出國的人那到底要怎樣的揭露制度那揭露之後是不是人民現在最擔心的台灣是自由民主國家未來是不是要核准"},{"start":240.937,"end":255.089,"text":"才能與大陸交流還是未來以後未來是不是還是只有報備才可以完全沒有所謂的你說說這樣的部分我剛說過了要兩岸要有對等跟尊嚴我們對他們要來的宗教團體其實都是採取開放的態度"},{"start":256.63,"end":274.719,"text":"但是我們過去的團體的時候呢到那個地方就完全轉了向就是基於安全的理由所以我們初步呢我們要先清查一下其實以目前我們現在的這個不管是輔導啦或者是其他的服務辦法都是按照現行的這個制度在走"},{"start":275.469,"end":298.895,"text":"好所以你的意思是說其實還是按照現行的辦法那如果就是說未來的街鬥制度你剛剛沒有提說現在還在演繹當中有沒有預計公佈的時間我們現在是鼓勵他們是登錄鼓勵登錄用鼓勵的方式登錄的方式鼓勵登錄的方式那街鬥跟鼓勵登錄的方式讓人家知道說你到中國大陸去紅磅陣仗的法律的時候那有沒有未來要修"},{"start":301.176,"end":324.69,"text":"什麼任何的法律跟條例嗎目前沒有任何的法律需要修正好謝謝好那下一個問題今天討論的是有關於政府還給勞動七天假及國定假日的修改的部分然後跟部長說明台灣勞工工時這個一年工時破2000根據民調顯示過半的民宿過半的民眾需要回復七天假那請教部長"},{"start":325.33,"end":346.375,"text":"台灣的國定假日相對較亞洲的鄰國較少公使也是在世界排名前段班現在世界第五那根據各委員提案的版本將國定假日提高請問內政部現在有規劃要提高哪一些的假日嗎比如說像之前五一勞動節有要統一放假嗎請問內政部的看法是什麼"},{"start":346.875,"end":356.545,"text":"報告委員我剛提過了我們在內政部所主導的是紀念日跟假日的實施辦法那是否放假的部分的話還是一樣對於勞工他們自己勞工的權益的問題我認為說勞工的權益的問題應該是由勞動部來主責會比較好"},{"start":362.196,"end":378.063,"text":"好所以現在內政部沒有考慮要增加任何一天的放假日報告委員那個勞動節5月1號本來就是勞工團體都放假勞工都放假好所以目前沒有好那下一個問題我要請教勞動部的黃師長理事長理事長好謝謝勞動部次長好謝謝次長有請"},{"start":392.022,"end":421.18,"text":"好 謝謝 部長請休息好 請教勞動部次長那就今天討論了很多的這個國定假日的修改主要還是因為台灣的這個勞工的工時增加的太多了而且是亞洲第五名亞洲前兩名 國際第五名那請教一下勞動部針對降低勞工的工時有沒有規劃的任何的進度跟規劃的任何的報告"},{"start":422.571,"end":435.308,"text":"跟委員說明第一那個媒體引用的那個都是所謂台灣勞工的工時全球第五我覺得這個是有點跟事實不一樣跟事實不一樣OECD跟OECD39個國家來比"},{"start":439.053,"end":455.735,"text":"那全世界有200個所以你認為台灣勞工的工時沒有太長2030個小時沒有太長全國第六亞洲第二我認為我們當然我們台灣勞工的工時確實還有讓他讓勞工有更多休息時間的那個努力空間那你們有沒有相對應的辦法跟政策嗎"},{"start":456.653,"end":480.54,"text":"我們現在就是第一我們勞動部的福祉是多年來都有推動讓企業來申請員工與工作與生活平衡的一些補助計畫那每年都有大概500多件的企業來申請第二就是說在工時政策方面我們也希望能夠透過這個最低工資每年的調整因為很多勞工他是希望能夠多加班然後來多賺錢"},{"start":481.48,"end":503.404,"text":"所以我們過去這幾年最低工資每年都調整讓勞工的底薪能夠持續提高事實上這個我們認為我們的調查也是有效的事實上在過去在2021年台灣勞工我們的調查大概有46%的勞工還要加班但到去年已經降到36%事實上這一個狀況我們認為是有它一定的效果"},{"start":508.405,"end":537.023,"text":"好 謝謝看來這個次長跟一般的勞工的想法不太一樣其實勞工不是不願意加班時數過少就是因為工作我覺得壓力太大所以勞工現在普遍年輕人他們可能會有自己的一個想法可是我還是要跟這個次長報告還是要想辦法把臺灣勞工的工時給下降那第二個我想請教其實臺灣現在目前還有另外一個問題就是臺灣的這個勞工40%他的特休假沒有放完"},{"start":537.503,"end":554.893,"text":"那很多人說其實現在特休假沒有放完其實基本上來應該要補償這個勞工他的一些的薪資嘛現在法規規定是這樣子可是現在卻沒有相關的一個罰則說如果這個雇主如果未休假的獎金沒有補足的話其實沒有相關的罰則請問次長覺得這樣子對勞工公平嗎"},{"start":558.237,"end":575.386,"text":"跟我的說明照計畫規定如果那個特休沒有放那僱主也不給付的話是要罰的要罰兩萬到一百萬的那現在有在落實嗎當然有我們勞檢都把這個列為重點項目好所以現在那為什麼還是有百分之四十的勞工特休假沒有放完"},{"start":576.126,"end":599.968,"text":"這個我們勞工部的立場是希望勞工能夠善用他的特休假的權利但是勞工他在不同的行業工作型態不同他會基於他自己的需要去決定要不要來特休或者來跟雇主要求要來換取現金收入所以我們的立場是希望勞工能夠善用他的特休假好那接下來我要想要交通部有來嗎"},{"start":603.393,"end":619.051,"text":"交通部我可以方便請教交通部嗎來等一下齁時間暫停來沒時間好好好來交通部總交委不好意思我們保衛一下時間好差不多收尾囉"},{"start":623.971,"end":649.19,"text":"好不好意思今天要請教交通部那我再請教一下其實也有很多委員還會質疑就是說如果放假日增加是不是有可能導致交通永賽或是旅遊業承載過高是否有相關的配套措施那請教您的部分就是會不會有新增的國定假日導致出遊的旅客人潮變多現行的運能是否充足會不會因為人潮過高導致工作量大增"},{"start":650.13,"end":671.695,"text":"因為我們交通運輸業的話他那個輪班輪休的部分會自己挪移他的那個假日所以應該是不會導致那個人力的那個擁塞的部分那我們本部所屬的這個機構輪班輪休人員現在都是按照公務員服務法跟服勤規範的相關規定來辦理"},{"start":674.036,"end":685.209,"text":"那在假日跟紀念日跟節日的時候也透過放假日的那個條椅跟加班補償的方式然後排定輪班人員出勤以確保民眾分離返鄉跟出遊旅遊的權益"},{"start":688.973,"end":706.1,"text":"應該是不會有影響最後還是要拜託內政部部長就是說有這麼多的委員提出相關的修法版本就代表這是立法院很多的委員大家的共識那也拜託部長可以讓台灣的勞工來做一些相關的修正謝謝 以上"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":429,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時57分）謝謝主席，各位委員、各位官員、各位媒體先進，大家早。是不是有請劉世芳部長？"],["主席：劉部長，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：委員早。"],["張委員智倫：部長早。部長，這是新會期第一次質詢，希望未來大家一起加油。首先，我還是要請教部長有關於時事題，針對賴總統3月12號的記者會要來跟部長請教，兩岸宗教團體交流應該要建立揭露制度，這樣的作法是否多此一舉？是否會有變相鎖國的問題？其實宗教交流原本是很單純的活動，宗教也是憲法賦予人民的基本權利，可是賴總統在記者會上提到，中國藉由兩岸交流對社會統戰滲透威脅，指示內政部、也就是劉世芳部長您要建立宗教團體等公益組織赴中國交流之揭露制度，以防杜中國的干預及統戰。其實宗教團體在賴總統這個新聞記者會之後就已經提出嚴重的反彈，他們認為這樣是變相地鎖國，教育界也還是鼓勵學子要多多交流。我想請教，部長，你在1月17號宗教事務諮詢委員會議中也有表示，兩岸宗教交流要秉持對等、尊嚴的原則。請問現在您的對等原則的定義是什麼？現在的交流真的有像賴總統所講的，有受到中國的干預及統戰嗎？請回答。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝委員的垂詢，我想我的立場都沒有改變，對等、尊嚴還要加上健康、有序。目前內政部在處理兩岸的宗教團體交流的時候，如果是團體性的交流，當然是要以登記、申請為原則。我想張委員非常清楚，上個月我們中國佛教會的理事長才剛剛圓寂，那個時候他們有邀請中國大山裡面很多長老到臺灣來參加圓寂法會的時候，所申請的每一位我們都予以通過，讓他們到臺灣來，沒有問題，所以健康、有序的部分，只要他是屬於宗教團體，而且是正信，不是邪教的話，我們都會完全地尊重，而且都沒有問題。但是重要……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。"],["劉部長世芳：您聽我……對不起，給我幾秒鐘的時間。但是重要的部分是，我們臺灣有一些宗教團體到中國大陸去的時候，到目前為止，在安全上面仍然出了狀況，譬如說臺灣的一貫道，還有統一教的幾個教友，到目前為止仍然是屬於沒有自由跟被關押的狀態，所以我們所說的對等、尊嚴跟健康、有序，我們很希望兩邊的宗教團體是基於宗教交流的原則，我們都是開放的，而且沒有任何的限制。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。部長，我請教一下，初步內政部有提出相關的揭露制度大概會在什麼時候公布？現在宗教團體他們最緊張的是，因為就像部長講的，現在的交流往來是很順暢的，當然會有一些個案，我也希望政府單位要積極地去處理，保障我們國人的安全……"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝，我們會加油。"],["張委員智倫：其實宗教團體現在出國，或是現在國人如果出國，政府大概都知道出國的人，到底是要怎樣的揭露制度？揭露之後，人民現在最擔心的是，臺灣是自由民主國家，未來是不是要核准才能與大陸交流？還是未來是不是只有報備才可以……"],["劉部長世芳：完全沒有所謂你所講的部分，我剛剛說過了，兩岸要有對等跟尊嚴，我們對他們要來的宗教團體，其實都是採取開放的態度，但是我們過去的團體到那個地方就完全轉了向，就是基於安全的理由，所以我們初步要先清查一下，其實以目前我們不管是輔導或者是其他的服務辦法，都是按照現行的這個制度在走。"],["張委員智倫：好。所以你的意思是，其實還是按照現行的辦法，如果未來的揭露制度，你剛剛沒有提，現在還在研議當中，有沒有預計公布的時間？"],["劉部長世芳：我們現在鼓勵他們是登錄，用鼓勵的方式、登錄的方式，鼓勵登錄的方式，揭露跟鼓勵登錄的方式，讓人家知道你到中國大陸去，從正向的法律方式，不要受到騷擾。"],["張委員智倫：那未來……我再更明確地請教部長，未來有沒有要修什麼任何的法律跟條例嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：目前沒有任何的法律需要修正。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。","下一個問題，今天討論的是有關於政府還給勞工7天假及國定假日修改的部分，也要跟部長說明，臺灣勞工一年工時破2,000小時，根據民調顯示，過半的民眾需要回復7天假。請教部長，臺灣的國定假日相對亞洲的鄰國較少，工時也是在世界排名前段班，現在是世界第五。根據各委員提案的版本，將國定假日提高，請問內政部現在有規劃要提高哪一些假日嗎？比如像之前五一勞動節有要統一放假嗎？請問內政部的看法是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，我剛提過了，我們內政部所主導的是紀念日跟假日的實施辦法，是否放假的部分，還是一樣，對於勞工，他們自己勞工的權益問題，我認為勞工權益的問題，應該是由勞動部來主責會比較好。"],["張委員智倫：好，所以現在內政部沒有考慮要增加任何一天的放假日？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，勞動節5月1日本來就是勞工團體都放假、勞工都放假。"],["張委員智倫：好，所以目前沒有？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["張委員智倫：下一個問題，我要請教勞動部的李次長。"],["主席：次長有請。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝，部長請休息。","請教勞動部次長，就今天討論的很多國定假日的修改，主要還是因為臺灣勞工的工時增加得太多了，而且是亞洲前兩名、國際第五名，請教一下，勞動部針對降低勞工的工時，有沒有規劃任何進度跟規劃任何報告？"],["李次長健鴻：跟委員說明，第一，媒體引用所謂臺灣勞工的工時是全球第五，我覺得這個是有點跟事實不一樣，因為這是跟OECD39個國家來比，而全世界有兩百多個國家……"],["張委員智倫：所以你認為臺灣勞工的工時沒有太長，2,030小時沒有太長？全國第五，亞洲第二？"],["李次長健鴻：我認為我們臺灣勞工的工時，確實還有讓勞工有更多休息時間的努力空間。"],["張委員智倫：你們有沒有相對應的辦法跟政策？"],["李次長健鴻：我們現在就是，第一，勞動部的宗旨是多年來都有推動讓企業來申請員工的工作與生活平衡的一些補助計畫，每一年大概都有五百多件的企業來申請；第二，在工時政策方面，我們也希望能夠透過最低工資每年的調整，因為很多勞工是希望能夠多加班，然後來多賺錢，所以我們過去這幾年最低工資每年都調整，讓勞工的底薪能夠持續提高，事實上，就我們的調查這也是有效的。過去在2021年，有關臺灣勞工，我們的調查大概有46%的勞工還要加班，但到去年已經降到36%，事實上，就我們認為，這個狀況是有它一定的效果。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。看來次長跟一般勞工的想法不太一樣，其實勞工不是加班時數過少，就是因為工作覺得壓力太大，所以勞工、現在普遍年輕人，他們可能會有自己的想法。可是我還是要跟次長報告，還是要想辦法把臺灣勞工的工時給下降。","第二個，我想請教的是，臺灣目前還有另外一個問題，就是臺灣的勞工有40%的特休假沒有放完，很多人說其實現在特休假沒有放完，基本上應該要補償勞工一些的薪資，現在法規規定是這樣子，可是現在卻沒有相關的罰則，針對雇主如果未休假的獎金沒有補足的情況，其實沒有相關的罰則。請問次長，你覺得這樣子對勞工公平嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：跟委員說明，照勞基法規定，如果特休沒有放，雇主也不給付的話，是要罰的，要罰2萬到100萬，要罰。"],["張委員智倫：現在有在落實嗎？"],["李次長健鴻：當然，我們勞檢都把這個列為重點項目。"],["張委員智倫：那麼為什麼還是有40%的勞工特休假沒有放完？"],["李次長健鴻：我們勞動部的立場是希望勞工能夠善用他特休假的權利，但是勞工在不同的行業、工作型態不同，他會基於自己的需要去決定要不要特休，或者跟雇主要求要換取現金收入，所以我們的立場是希望勞工能夠善用他的特休假。"],["張委員智倫：好。交通部有來嗎？我可以方便請教交通部嗎？"],["主席：等一下，時間暫停，沒時間？好。來，交通部馮專委。不好意思，我們把握一下時間，差不多要收尾了。"],["張委員智倫：不好意思，今天要請教交通部。"],["馮專門委員淑真：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：我再請教一下，其實也有很多委員會質疑如果放假日增加，是不是有可能導致交通壅塞，或是旅遊業承載過高，是否有相關的配套措施？想請教您的部分，就是會不會有新增的國定假日，導致出遊的旅客人潮變多，現行的運能是否充足，會不會因為人潮過高，導致工作量大增？"],["馮專門委員淑真：因為我們交通運輸業輪班輪休的部分，他們會自己挪移假日，所以應該是不會導致人力壅塞的部分。本部所屬機構輪班輪休人員，現在都是按照公務員服務法跟服勤規範的相關規定來辦理，在假日、紀念日跟節日的時候，也透過放假日的調移跟加班補償的方式，排定輪班人員出勤，以確保民眾順利返鄉跟出遊、旅遊的權益……"],["張委員智倫：所以不會嘛！不會有影響。"],["馮專門委員淑真：所以應該是不會有影響，謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：好，最後還是要拜託內政部部長，有這麼多委員提出相關的修法版本，代表這是立法院很多的委員大家的共識，也拜託部長可以體諒臺灣的勞工來做一些相關的修正，謝謝，以上。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員。","下一位我們請麥玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159248","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159248","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb3efb07af96dc069b100c4df18311f68deba1aea0cf818e9146622ad7871bd4675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:49:08 - 09:57:36","影片長度":"00:08:28","會議時間":"2025-03-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"(變更議程)立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。二、審查委員高金素梅等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條例草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai　Tahovecahe等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。六、審查委員陳玉珍等16人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案。七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra　Kacaw等18人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。九、審查委員王鴻薇等19人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十四、審查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案。十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十八、審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬具「國定假日法草案」案。二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十一、審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十二、審查委員黃健豪等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十三、審查委員李彥秀等16人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十四、審查委員廖偉翔等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十五、審查委員高金素梅等29人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。二十六、委員徐欣瑩等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案。\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文；第二十一及第二十二案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查；第二十三至第二十六案，如未經院會交付本會審查或未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書不予審查。】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-17","start_time":"2025-03-17T09:49:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-17T09:57:36+08:00","duration":508,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-3-15-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.919718750000001,"end":12.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.176593750000002,"end":13.800968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.35284375,"end":36.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.37534375,"end":56.595968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.400343750000005,"end":39.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.369718750000004,"end":46.892843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.955968750000004,"end":48.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.50409375,"end":51.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.74784375,"end":304.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.04596875,"end":66.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.98534375,"end":77.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.93846875,"end":79.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.18284375,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.81659375000001,"end":104.04846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.86971875,"end":113.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.46409375,"end":117.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.38409375,"end":143.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.79409375,"end":166.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.79784375,"end":169.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.85221875000002,"end":171.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.01659375,"end":173.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.83346875,"end":185.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.70471875,"end":198.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.25971875,"end":264.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.06096875000003,"end":267.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.62096875000003,"end":274.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.55721875,"end":413.95784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.98284375000003,"end":308.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.39659375,"end":503.26034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.62284375,"end":505.92659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.22596875000005,"end":508.96409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.106,"end":13.548,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請內政部劉部長劉部長有請蘇媛早部長好那我們今天是要來審查紀念日及節日的這個實施條例那希望能夠看是不是大家都有共識要把它從辦法調升為法治化那其實在這個排案審查之前 社會上已經討論很久部長這個案子大概討論"},{"start":37.438,"end":51.191,"text":"多早年多久非常久民國90年之前那時候內政部曾經提過有總共三次那也沒有共識然後在立法委員已經經歷過五屆所以您當時也參與過討論也有參與過討論但是也都是沒有共識所以那個時候的困難點是什麼"},{"start":57.077,"end":75.727,"text":"我想困難點是這樣子大家都知道說假日或是國定假日或是節日它是綜合在一起的它裡面討論說有比較嚴肅性的假日譬如說228但是也有百公百業但是也有性別譬如說三八婦女節那有人跟我提到在網路上面有提到說那1111光棍節要不要放假"},{"start":76.087,"end":84.892,"text":"所以大家的版本都不一樣大家的提案的理由都不一樣現在也是這樣嗎因為我們剛剛其實上個會期也開過公聽會嘛所以從90年開始我們就討論這件事情但是一直到現在包括上個會期我們才剛剛開完公聽會也還是這樣沒有辦法有共識說哇我們就是有幾天已經得到全社會的支持大家都同意放假了是這樣的狀況嗎還是目前其實我非常想描述"},{"start":104.324,"end":130.14,"text":"跟委員報告一下我想委員非常的清楚假日節日這個部分要怎麼放假其實我們都會尊重不管是族群性別或是其他的百工百業但是要不要放假這個事情就事涉多元如果是屬於公務員放假的話是我們行政院的人事行政總處在每一年的年底的時候公佈下一年度的放假日那但是事涉到私人的比如說公司行號的放假的部分的話"},{"start":130.64,"end":148.692,"text":"它就必須要符合勞動部的這些勞基法或是放假日所以其實是兩個層次現在是所有的把它都放在一起的時候就會變成有點混亂也就是造成學者所說的沒有辦法凝聚共識也就是說其實這個議題來講雖然我們講的是紀念日和節日但是其實回過頭來我們要處理的是當我們能夠確認紀念日和節日的意義能夠得到共識就這個意義價值得到共識之後"},{"start":159.119,"end":172.103,"text":"那我們再去處理要怎麼來紀念或放假放假只是形式之一而已可以這麼說嗎對 它是一種放假是一種形式之一所以應該是寓意的重要性要先能夠凝聚共識這是第一個層次大家先討論好是不是"},{"start":174.844,"end":189.258,"text":"都同意有這一些紀念日成為國家制定的然後再來決定它的形式到底是要放假還是不放假或有其他的紀念方式因為我看現在的辦法也有我們就是要升旗啊或者是什麼啊有些紀念日是單純這樣所以紀念日的紀念形式有"},{"start":192.881,"end":207.43,"text":"多種不同的狀況然後才是有這個放假只是其中之一應該要兩種不同的層次好 那我們就來心該正所以這件事情要被處理的狀況其實最重要的就是剛剛說的第一層次共識的部分那我們來看"},{"start":208.411,"end":236.69,"text":"其實我們以亞洲好了我們就先侷限在我們的歷史脈絡比較相近的文化風俗比較相近的亞洲來看好了其實不管是日本、韓國、新加坡都會有不同的假日我發現他們其實都是依照自己的歷史背景或文化去制定那我以我們比較接近的新加坡好了為什麼新加坡我會說它比較接近呢因為新加坡也是華人、馬來人、印度人及其他歐亞裔的血統這樣組成的一個國家"},{"start":238.451,"end":266.819,"text":"它的文化非常多元以至於它的假日就非常多元它的假日裡面你看看它有這個以宗教為放假日的狀況也有因為是種族族群的不同而產生不同的狀況但綜合起來它其實是平均分布這樣的狀況部長這個新加坡的您應該在處理這個案件的時候法案的時候也有看過吧有但是宗教為主的部分也有人做報告是"},{"start":267.739,"end":277.084,"text":"但是它的宗教其實等於是配合了族群的不同嘛因為它的不同族群產生的不同的宗教這樣的狀況好 那如果回到我們的狀態來講的話呢其實剛剛也聽到非常多偉文的說明你就可以看出有些人是從宗教出發有些人是從族群出發有些人是從歷史來出發部長你有統計過這一次大家所有的提案狀況上面我們總共"},{"start":293.652,"end":322.057,"text":"如果全部都採納的話我們要增加多少的假日紀念日嗎有26個提案你們剛剛提到了最少是增加一天那最多是增加9天這個是紀念日的部分沒有所有的提案所有的提案就是紀念日跟節日就是剛剛所說的有族群的方面的也有百公百業的也有宗教方面的也有因為是歲時祭儀譬如說這個農曆新年啊等等這些所以加在一起呢就是最多有達到9天好"},{"start":322.637,"end":328.664,"text":"其實這個數字是遠超過現在的狀況那如果把這個九天的假期全部都開始放進去了的話對我們的社會現在的狀況你覺得影響是不是也應該一併提出來讓大家能夠了解之後我們才決定說是不是這些假期都有辦法去處理"},{"start":343.439,"end":358.078,"text":"是謝謝委員的垂詢有關於那個各個委員所提出放假日的部分因為很難就是說做他們如果多放假9天的話會造成什麼的影響但是就我所了解應該就是說在勞動方面像我剛剛說的"},{"start":359.119,"end":384.254,"text":"如果放假日的話全國的軍公教大概都會是一樣譬如說多放九天但是對於在私部門裡面尤其是在勞工勞動或者是公司行號企業文化裡面他們能不能承受說多放九天的時候有一些什麼樣子的影響那這個部分因為委員的提案因為26個委員提案裡面他們也沒有提到這方面的評估所以我們就很難去評估到後續的影響在哪裡我想"},{"start":386.055,"end":410.202,"text":"今天各個委員從剛剛提案說明就已經這麼多人等一下每個人也都會問我想問的核心價值不外乎是剛剛提到兩個第一個就是我們對這些節日紀念日的價值意義是不是有共識才不會出現像這一次我們雖然在放228紀念日但是你看坊間這個出現在電視媒體上面的或者是我們的社群網路上面是什麼是歡慶228228是用來這樣歡慶的嗎"},{"start":415.104,"end":437.545,"text":"228可以放假228可以去做休閒的活動這沒有問題但是在這之前社會是不是對228的這個意義放假紀念日的意義能夠有理解這就等同於是剛剛我聽到比如說823紀念日我也覺得這個紀念日很好啊但我想823紀念日真正的精神應該是在反共是在守護民主這個有沒有能夠提到"},{"start":439.767,"end":446.932,"text":"行限紀念日 對啊 行限很重要啊但你是不是能夠在國會裡面作為一個堅守憲法的立法委員能夠堅守我們目前的中華民國憲法五權憲法體制這樣子的一個政黨那我就覺得這是不是也才是行限的真諦是不是應該搞清楚這個我們這些假日"},{"start":463.223,"end":473.687,"text":"它的意義再來提出我們要怎麼樣去實行這個假日這個節日紀念日這樣的方式所以我認為其實今天我們會花非常多的時間在處理這些意義的部分我相信我期待我們能夠有共識不過我認為在這個部分來講"},{"start":483.01,"end":502.904,"text":"可能從90年到現在大家都必須要把所有的台灣的歷史脈絡做深刻的檢視之後才有辦法決定哪一些是真正的共識否則那只是造成各行各業更大的困擾而已我認為部長今天在這裡麻煩你在後面的委員槌尋的時候能夠一一的說明這樣子的部分是謝謝委員謝謝主席好謝謝蘇巧惠委員長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":385,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時49分）謝謝主席，請內政部劉部長。"],["主席：劉部長，有請。"],["劉部長世芳：蘇委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長好。我們今天是要來審查紀念日及節日實施條例，看看是不是大家都有共識要把它從辦法提升為法律，也就是予以法制化。其實，在這個案子排審之前，社會上已經討論很久，部長，這個案子大概討論多少年、多久了？"],["劉部長世芳：非常久，民國90年之前，那時候內政部曾經提過總共3次，也沒有共識……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，90年就開始了。"],["劉部長世芳：然後在立法委員已經經歷過5屆，也沒有共識。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以您當時也參與過討論？"],["劉部長世芳：也有參與過討論，但是也都沒有共識。"],["蘇委員巧慧：請問那個時候的困難點是什麼？"],["劉部長世芳：我想困難點是這樣子，大家都知道假日或國定假日或節日是綜合在一起，裡面討論的有比較嚴肅性的假日，譬如說二二八，但是也有百工百業，也有性別，譬如三八婦女節，但也有人跟我提到在網路上有說那1111光棍節要不要放假，類似這樣的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以大家的版本都不一樣。"],["劉部長世芳：都莫衷一是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：大家提案的理由都不一樣。"],["劉部長世芳：都不一樣，每個人後面……"],["蘇委員巧慧：現在也是這樣嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：也是這個樣子。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為上個會期也開過公聽會了嘛，所以從90年開始我們就討論這件事情，但是一直到現在，包括上個會期我們才剛剛開完公聽會，也還是這樣，沒有辦法有共識說有哪幾天已經得到全社會的支持、大家都同意放假，是這樣的狀況嗎？您可否簡單描述？"],["劉部長世芳：我分成兩個層面跟委員報告一下，我想委員非常清楚，假日、節日這個部分要怎麼放假，其實我們都會尊重，不管是族群、性別或是其他的百工百業，但是要不要放假這個事情就事涉多元……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，沒錯！"],["劉部長世芳：如果是屬於公務員放假的話，行政院人事行政總處會在每一年年底的時候公布下一年度的放假日，但是事涉到私人的部分，譬如說公司行號放假部分的話，就必須要符合勞動部的勞基法或是放假日的相關規定，所以其實是兩個層次，現在把所有的都放在一起時就變成有點混亂，也就是造成學者所說的，沒有辦法凝聚共識。"],["蘇委員巧慧：也就是說，就這個議題來講，雖然我們講的是紀念日和節日，但是回過頭來，其實我們要處理的是，當我們能夠確認紀念日和節日的意義，能夠得到共識，就這個意義、價值得到共識之後，我們再去處理要怎麼來紀念或放假，放假只是形式之一而已，可以這麼說嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：對，放假是一種形式之一。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以應該是意義的重要性要先能夠凝聚共識，這是第一個層次，大家先討論好，是不是都同意這一些紀念日成為國定紀念日，然後再來決定它的形式到底是要放假還是不放假，或有其他的紀念方式。"],["劉部長世芳：對，兩個不同的層次。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為我看現在的辦法也有我們就是要升旗或者是什麼，有些紀念日是單純這樣，所以紀念日的紀念形式有多種不同的狀況，放假只是其中之一，應該可以這樣講嘛？"],["劉部長世芳：對，兩種不同的層次。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，所以這件事情要被處理的狀況，其實最重要的就是剛剛所說第一層次的共識部分。我們就先侷限在與我們歷史脈絡、文化風俗比較相近的亞洲來看好了，其實不管是日本、韓國、新加坡，都會有不同的假日，我發現他們都是依照自己的歷史、背景或文化去制定，我以與我們比較接近的新加坡來說好了，為什麼我會說新加坡比較接近呢？因為新加坡也是由華人、馬來人、印度人及其他歐亞裔血統所組成的一個國家，所以它的文化非常多元，以致於它的假日就非常多元，它的假日裡面有以宗教為放假日的狀況，也有因為是種族、族群的不同而產生不同的狀況，但綜合起來其實是平均分布的。部長，新加坡的放假情況，您在處理這個法案的時候應該也有看過吧？"],["劉部長世芳：有，宗教為主的部分也有人來做報告。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，但是它的宗教其實等於是配合了族群的不同嘛，因為他們不同族群採信不同的宗教，是這樣的狀況。"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：如果回到我們的狀態來講的話，其實剛剛也聽到非常多委員的說明，你就可以看出有些人是從宗教出發，有些人是從族群出發，有些人是從歷史出發。部長，你有沒有統計過這一次大家所有的提案，如果全部都採納的話，我們要增加多少假日、紀念日嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：有，在26個提案裡面，我剛剛提到了，最少是增加1天，最多是增加9天。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這個是紀念日的部分？"],["劉部長世芳：沒有，是所有的提案，就是紀念日跟節日，就是剛剛所說的，有族群方面的，有百工百業的，也有宗教方面的，也有因為歲時祭儀，譬如農曆新年等等這些，所以加在一起就是最多有達到9天。"],["蘇委員巧慧：部長，其實這個數字是遠超過現在的狀況，如果把這9天的假期全部都放進去的話，對於我們社會現況的影響，你覺得是不是也應該一併提出來，讓大家能夠了解之後，我們才決定是不是這些假期都有辦法去處理？"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員的垂詢。有關於各個委員所提出放假日的部分，因為很難做出如果多放假9天會造成什麼樣影響的評估，但是就我所了解，在勞動方面，像我剛剛所說的，如果放假日的話，全國的軍公教大概都會是一樣，譬如說多放9天，但是對於私部門的部分，尤其是在勞工勞動或者是公司行號、企業文化裡面，他們能不能承受多放9天、這樣又會有什麼樣的影響？這個部分，因為26個委員的提案也沒有提到這方面的評估，所以我們就很難去評估它後續的影響在哪裡。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！我想這樣啦，剛剛進行委員提案說明時就已經這麼多人了，等一下每個人也都會提問，而提問的核心價值不外乎是剛剛提到的兩個，第一個就是我們對這些節日、紀念日的價值意義是不是有共識，才不會出現像這一次我們雖然在放二二八紀念日，但是你看坊間出現在電視媒體上或是我們社群網路上的是什麼？是歡慶二二八，二二八是用來這樣歡慶的嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：當然不是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：二二八可以放假，二二八可以去做休閒的活動，這沒有問題，但是在這之前，社會是不是對二二八這個放假紀念日的意義能夠有理解，這就等同於剛剛我聽到的比如八二三紀念日，我也覺得這個紀念日很好啊，但我想八二三紀念日真正的精神應該是在反共，是在守護民主，這個有沒有能夠提到？還有行憲紀念日，對啊，行憲很重要啊，但你是不是能夠在國會裡面作為一個堅守憲法的立法委員，能夠堅守我們目前中華民國憲法、五權憲法體制的這樣一個政黨，我覺得這是不是才是行憲的真諦，是不是應該搞清楚這些假日的意義，再來提出我們要怎麼樣去實行這個假日、節日、紀念日的方式？","我認為今天我們會花非常多的時間在處理這些意義的部分，我相信也期待我們能夠有共識，不過我認為就這個部分來講，可能從90年到現在，大家都必須要把所有的臺灣歷史脈絡做深刻的檢視之後，才有辦法決定哪一些是真正的共識，否則那只是造成各行各業更大的困擾而已。部長，你今天在這裡，麻煩你在之後的委員進行垂詢的時候能夠一一地說明這個部分。"],["劉部長世芳：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝蘇巧慧委員的質詢。","下一位請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-3","speakers":["牛煦庭","洪孟楷","張智倫","陳玉珍","賴士葆","高金素梅","翁曉玲","林倩綺","麥玉珍","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","李坤城","葉元之","陳瑩"],"page_start":317,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142701_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴士葆等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；二、審查委員高金素梅等18人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；三、審查委員陳瑩等16人擬具「國假暨文化節日實施條\n例草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等17人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法\n草案」案；五、審查委員牛煦庭等22人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；六、審查委員陳\n玉珍等16 人擬具「中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法草案」案；七、審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具\n「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；八、審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「國家紀念日及\n節日實施法草案」案；九、審查委員王鴻薇等19 人擬具「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；\n十、審查委員許宇甄等19人擬具「紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十一、審查委員楊瓊瓔等31人\n擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十二、審查委員林思銘等20人擬具「紀念日及節日實施\n條例草案」案；十三、審查委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十四、審\n查委員葉元之等21人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十五、審查委員林倩綺等20人擬具\n「國家紀念日及節日實施法草案」案；十六、審查委員許智傑等30人擬具「國定紀念日及節日實\n施條例草案」案；十七、審查委員魯明哲等16人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十八、\n審查委員羅廷瑋等23人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案；十九、審查委員洪孟楷等16人擬\n具「國定假日法草案」案；二十、審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「紀念日及節日實施條例草案」案\n【僅詢答及宣讀條文】","agenda_id":"1142701_00007"}}},{"id":"159240","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159240","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbf72f5f82cff5a94aa4d8ee7d728f0553eba1aea0cf818e91729861a5771213c05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:35:30 - 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謝謝主席 有請主委請主委備質詢 謝謝郭委員好"},{"start":17.165,"end":34.271,"text":"主委辛苦了因為很多人在問台積電我也不例外的也是要講一下這個台積電的部分我們聽到這個魏董事長他其實之前在總統府有開的記者會那之所以會到美國就是投資這樣子的一個金額主要就是因為以台積電來講產能不夠"},{"start":37.452,"end":55.813,"text":"所以他必須要拓展產能這個相對來講我用一個更白話的就是說我要因應我自己的客戶當我的客戶太多我需要做給他們的東西太多我沒有人做光是在台灣其實是不夠的所以我必須要到外地請別人來幫我做這個概念對嗎是的確是"},{"start":56.974,"end":75.205,"text":"好所以其實就是慘了但很多人又開始要擔心了因為剛剛我有聽到其他的委員在講說是不是連封裝測試也會去但是以客戶的角度這個是我從財經的報導上面看到的以封裝測試的一個客戶高規格的客戶的他的表示"},{"start":76.285,"end":99.881,"text":"目前半導體的這個高層他分析儘管超維他是在這個台積電他們先進封裝的首要客戶之一但是這個封裝的測試總共有三種不同的技術是其中之一但他預估啦其實這個技術並不會在美國擴產也就是說如果要在美國連封裝測試的部分一起算進去光是建廠至少要四年對嗎"},{"start":101.733,"end":116.7,"text":"是因為他那個先進封裝的廠他用的技術跟經營製造不太一樣所以他還要再找不同的這個供應鏈能夠支撐他這個廠的運作這個不是很容易的事情所以這種準備工作就要好幾年"},{"start":116.96,"end":140.828,"text":"所以光是先進的封裝測試廠的高層他也表示以他對台積電的了解他們是非常非常嚴謹而且態度是非常的保守跟謹慎設廠絕對有他的道理那不是只有在美國將來其實可能在日本在德國他都一樣也會設廠就是因為四個字他的產能不足"},{"start":142.989,"end":164.996,"text":"所以魏董事長也不斷的在強調在台灣他預計還要再開11條的生產線也就是說這11條的生產線目前跟國客會這邊也有合作剛剛葉元之委員他也特別提到了我們也正在幫他找適合的地點但是這個必須要很長期的計劃因為它包含了有所謂的內政部"},{"start":165.736,"end":185.777,"text":"經濟部甚至還要跟農業部還有環境部等等是不是也要跨部會才能夠找到適合的場子對不對是是好那台積電的問題我就問到這裡好那另外一個部分呢我想就是我們非常的鼓勵各個領域的研究人員以國科會的一個角度來說"},{"start":187.745,"end":214.779,"text":"那麼以基礎的科學研究來回應這個社會上的一個需求來創造所謂的這個科研的價值我想這是國科會非常重要的一個宗旨對不對是好那剛剛其實有很多的委員正在關心就是說我們的科研人才的資源或者是我們在學術研究要補助所謂的大專學生的研究的計劃等等這也都是在我們的國科會的這個主要的服務的項目應該講之一對不對"},{"start":216.86,"end":235.185,"text":"那同時呢我們也積極的在推動這個台灣的科技人才跟國際科技學術單位來做這樣交流的一個跨國的一個事務沒有錯對不對沒有錯好但是呢我們從翠上面喔我最近看到了一篇喔當然我不知道他是在美國秘書裡"},{"start":236.225,"end":262.042,"text":"州的一所大學他應該也是在攻讀博士吧他說他們系上好不容易錄取了一位這個來自台灣的博士生本來是希望他可以來到這個地方來深造但是呢前幾天他來信告知可能沒辦法成行因為他向國家申請的獎學金呢在今年因為預算刪減而暫停發放雖然他們為他保留了這樣的一個名額直到明年但是還是"},{"start":262.702,"end":281.35,"text":"沒有任何可能性或者是肯定的一個答案那他也特別說到這一位唯一來自台灣的博士生要錄取有多麼的嚴格在眾多的競爭者當中光是他們系上收到了33份的申請只有這一位台灣的博士生他錄取了"},{"start":285.612,"end":306.701,"text":"逐漸他凌駕他的才華以及他的整個所有的能力優秀是凌駕在其他國的博士生申請的一個名單上面但因為我們的預算被砍了因為我們的才化法的部分也嚴重的影響到了這樣子的一個狀況接下來我就想要問一下我們的主委了"},{"start":307.721,"end":334.587,"text":"在我們的這個財政收支劃分法修法之後我們的中央的部分有3753億那這個部分呢除了在114年度的中央總預算裡頭我們扣掉了所謂的法律義務的支出還有補助一些限制以外3.1兆的這樣子的一個預算之後呢也因為財劃法這樣子的劃分我們可能要面臨28"},{"start":338.128,"end":356.093,"text":"28%的嚴重影響那28%是好的我還說是好的為什麼因為如果國防預算其實是不容被刪減的可能會高達影響層面37%以上那在國科會四大領域可能就會被嚴重影響有四個部分"},{"start":356.713,"end":376.599,"text":"基礎的研究 精創跟人工智慧太空科技 近鄰的科技等等這些全部都會被影響我不曉得目前為止我們國科會怎麼因應這個狀況目前我們接收到行政院主計總署來的這樣的訊息現在只是預先來決定怎麼處理的這個階段"},{"start":385.543,"end":412.569,"text":"那如果是28%我想如果要通商就影響到所有的計畫那這個影響的範圍實在是太大了但是如果說你要把某些計畫就刪掉就不做的話那同樣的也會影響到非常多的我們重大的那個科技政策項目就無法執行所以都是非常的困難所以我當時才會說這個會是一個災難性的這個結果"},{"start":415.47,"end":438.072,"text":"所以其實這個是我一直從早上聽到現在不管是各個部會也好那尤其在我們的國科會就是一方面又希望國科會能夠多多的培養多多的投資在我們的科研的人才上面那二方面其實因為我們的預算因為我們的所有的經費可能會嚴重受到災難性的影響"},{"start":439.073,"end":452.742,"text":"所以我真的不知道要馬而好又要馬而不吃草的概念是從何而來好那接下來我來問一下就是我們台灣的算力AI算力我想這個AI算力其實也是我們非常重要的就是一門課題那在我們"},{"start":456.004,"end":481.899,"text":"目前台灣的AI算力在排名全球的排名是第11那這個部分是怎麼樣應該要來因應跟縮小跟國際AI強權的一個算力的一個差距我們是不是有一個進程的計畫那因為我們知道其實包含中國不管是Deep-seek也好他們用低成本高效能的一個優勢那我們在這個部分是怎麼樣來強化我們自己本身的競爭力呢這個部分"},{"start":482.987,"end":498.049,"text":"國會現在我們也初步決定了就是除了我們自己在發展的這個台德之外我們現在正在鼓勵我們的學界中央研究院甚至我們的產業界也大力來投資因為現在我們可能無法像"},{"start":498.63,"end":514.053,"text":"像美國那樣子去做非常龐大的開創性的這種大型語言模型因為那個要投入的確是超過我們的能力所及但是呢 基於現有的這個開源的這個模型我們做一些前瞻的這個應用"},{"start":515.234,"end":537.29,"text":"特別是優化這些模型讓這個能源的使用效率提升讓它適合台灣的環境使用我們的資料建構主權AI這部分前瞻的研究我們會大力來支持我們的學界跟這個業界要做我們也支持如果有持續的一個比較更積極的一點進程再提供給我們辦公室好 謝謝委員"},{"start":537.99,"end":557.834,"text":"那再來我想要問一下就是包含我們的這個低軌衛星的部分那我想大家都應該還記得2023年就是台馬的這個電纜斷纜就是斷纜的這個事件其實造成了馬祖地區的民生跟經濟形同像是孤島一樣那等於對外的連結都沒有了"},{"start":558.294,"end":575.069,"text":"那當然在這個惡霧戰爭當中其實所謂的地軌衛星它占有非常重要的一個國防的一個地位啦那2019年到2023年台海的這個海嵐受損的部分總共是36件那平均大概每一年大概都有故障大概將近7件"},{"start":576.65,"end":600.86,"text":"2023年甚至高達了12件創歷史的新高那近三年來其實我們周邊的一些斷纜的一個事件平均每年發生至少是七到八次但是在今年前兩個月其實我們就很擔心了因為連續發生了大概有四起那想問一下就是我們的主委目前我們的低軌衛星推動的進度應該是如何那就是"},{"start":601.5,"end":606.386,"text":"是不是在我們的這個福惠9號還有這個B5G的一個地軌衛星都已經預計在2027年發射這個是不是會如期進行"},{"start":612.918,"end":640.82,"text":"我們目前規劃如果預算沒有影響的話會如期就是就是116年2027年我們會發射第一顆通訊先啟就是我們家B5G的這個通訊衛星但是我們現在還是因為在我們還是依賴歐洲的這個OneWeb的低軌衛星那我們是要怎麼樣去強化我們自己本身的就是去降低這個依賴性這個目前有沒有一些進程的計畫"},{"start":641.823,"end":656.508,"text":"我們除了目前在使用的這個OneWeb的服務它的頻寬受到限制所以沒有辦法擴大我們現在正在跟其他的這個美國的公司也在洽談當中很有可能明年我們會由這個美國"},{"start":659.989,"end":685.299,"text":"Amazon Kuiper來提供額外的這個服務那這個至於國安的需求我們的國安會也在尋找可能的這個美國公司在在這個中高軌相關的這個衛星服務也在強化當中所以政府其實是對於我們的通信韌性現在花了很大力氣能夠建立相關的這個能力確保我們的通信韌性因為現在這個"},{"start":686.82,"end":707.391,"text":"海底光纜被刻意破壞這個情況越來越嚴重也造成人民非常大的反感在這種狀況之下我們必須要加速我們的衛星的能力好那我們希望就是在跟美國有進一步的確定的一個合作的時候其實也把這樣子的資訊提供給大家好謝謝主委謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":582,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時35分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：郭委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：主委辛苦了！很多人在問台積電，我也不例外的要講一下台積電的部分，其實魏董事長之前在總統府有開記者會，之所以會到美國投資這樣子的金額，主要就是因為以台積電來講，產能不夠，所以它必須要拓展產能。相對來講，我用一個更白話的，就是我要因應我自己的客戶，當我的客戶太多，我需要做給他們的東西太多，我沒有人做，光是在臺灣其實是不夠的，所以必須要到外地請別人來幫我做，這個概念對嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，的確是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，所以其實就是產能的問題，但很多人又開始要擔心了，因為剛剛我有聽到其他委員在說是不是連封裝測試也會去，但是以客戶的角度而言，這是我從財經的報導上面看到的，以封裝測試高規格客戶的表示，目前半導體的高層分析，儘管超微是台積電先進封裝的首要客戶之一，但封裝測試總共有三種不同的技術，這是其中之一，但他預估這個技術並不會在美國擴產，也就是說，如果要在美國連封裝測試的部分一起算進去，光是建廠至少要四年對嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，因為先進封裝廠所用的技術跟晶圓製造不太一樣，所以它還要再找不同的供應鏈來支撐這個廠的運作，這個不是很容易的事情，所以這種準備工作就要好幾年。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以先進封裝測試廠的高層也表示，以他對台積電的了解，他們是非常非常嚴謹，而且態度是非常的保守跟謹慎，設廠絕對有它的道理，不是只有在美國，將來其實可能在日本、在德國，它都一樣也會設廠，就是因為四個字，它的產能不足對吧！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以魏董事長也不斷在強調，在臺灣他預計還要再開11條生產線，也就是說，這11條生產線目前跟國科會這邊也有合作，剛剛葉元之委員也特別提到了，我們也正在幫它找適合的地點，但是這個必須要很長期的計畫，因為它包含了內政部、經濟部，甚至還要跟農業部還有環境部等等，是不是也要跨部會才能夠找到適合的場址？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，台積電的問題我就問到這裡。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["郭委員昱晴：另外一個部分，我們非常鼓勵各個領域的研究人員，以國科會的角度來說，以基礎的科學研究來回應社會上的需求，來創造所謂的科研價值，我想這是國科會非常重要的一個宗旨，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：剛剛其實有很多委員在關心我們的科研人才資源，或者是我們的學術研究要補助大專學生的研究計畫等等，這也都是國科會主要的服務項目之一對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：同時我們也積極在推動臺灣的科技人才跟國際科技學術單位進行交流的跨國事務，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：沒有錯。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是我最近從Threads上面看到了一篇文章，他應該是在美國密蘇里州的一所大學攻讀博士，他說他們系上好不容易錄取了一位來自臺灣的博士生，本來是希望他可以來到這個地方深造，但是前幾天他來信告知可能沒辦法成行，因為他向國家申請的獎學金在今年因為預算刪減而暫停發放，雖然他們為他保留了這樣的一個名額直到明年，但是還是沒有任何可能性或者是肯定的一個答案。他也特別說到，這一位唯一來自臺灣的博士生要錄取有多麼地嚴格，在眾多的競爭者當中，光是他們系上收到了33份的申請，只有這一位臺灣的博士生錄取了，足見他的才華以及他整個的能力、優秀是凌駕在申請名單上其他國的博士生，但因為我們的預算被砍了，因為我們的財劃法的部分，也嚴重地影響到這樣子的一個狀況。","接著下來我就想要問一下我們的主委了，在我們的財政收支劃分法修法之後，我們光中央的部分有3,753億，這個部分除了在114年度的中央總預算裡頭，我們扣掉了所謂的法律義務的支出還有補助一些縣市以外，3.1兆的預算也因為財劃法這樣子的劃分，我們可能要面臨28%的嚴重影響，28%是好的，我還說是好的，為什麼？因為如果國防預算其實是不容被刪減的，可能會高達影響層面37%以上。在國科會四大領域可能會被嚴重影響有4個部分，基礎研究、晶創跟人工智慧、太空科技、淨零科技等等，這些全部都會被影響，我不曉得目前為止，我們國科會怎麼因應這個狀況？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前我們所接收到行政院主計總處來的訊息，現在只是預先來決定怎麼處理的階段，如果是28%，我想如果要通刪就影響到所有的計畫，影響的範圍太大了，但是如果說你要把某些計畫刪掉不做的話，同樣地也會影響到非常多我們重大的科技政策項目就無法執行，所以都是非常困難，所以我當時才會說這會是一個災難性的結果。"],["郭委員昱晴：我一直從早上聽到現在，不管是各個部會也好，尤其在我們的國科會，一方面又希望國科會能夠多多培養、多多投資在我們的科研人才上面，二方面又因為我們的預算、我們所有的經費可能會嚴重受到災難性的影響，所以我真的不知道要馬兒好，又要馬而不吃草的概念是從何而來啦！","接下來我來問一下就是我們臺灣的AI算力，我想AI算力其實也是我們非常重要的一門課題，目前臺灣的AI算力在全球的排名是第11，這個部分是應該要怎麼樣來因應跟縮小與國際AI強權的算力差距，我們是不是有一個近程的計畫？因為我們知道，其實包含中國不管是DeepSeek也好，他們用低成本、高效能的優勢，我們在這個部分是怎麼樣來強化我們自己本身的競爭力呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會現在也初步決定，除了我們自己在發展的TAIDE之外，我們現在正在鼓勵我們的學界、中央研究院，甚至我們的產業界也大力來投資，因為現在我們可能無法像美國那樣子去做非常龐大的開創性的這種大型語言模型，因為那個投入的確是超過我們的能力所及，但是基於現有的開源模型，我們做一些前瞻的應用，特別是優化這些模型，讓能源的使用效率提升，讓它適合臺灣的環境，使用我們的資料建構主權AI，這一部分前瞻的研究，我們會大力來支持我們的學界，業界要做我們也支持來做這個。"],["郭委員昱晴：如果有持續的比較更積極的一點進程，再提供給我們辦公室。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：再來我想要問一下包含我們低軌衛星的部分，我想大家都應該還記得2023年台馬的電纜斷纜事件，造成馬祖地區的民生跟經濟形同像是孤島一樣，等於對外的連結都沒有了。當然在俄烏戰爭當中，其實低軌衛星占有非常重要的一個國防地位。2019年到2023年，臺海海纜受損的部分總共是36件，平均每一年大概都有故障將近7件，2023年甚至高達了12件，創歷史新高，近3年來，其實我們周邊的一些斷纜事件平均每年發生至少7到8次，但是在今年前2個月其實我們就很擔心了，因為連續發生了大概有4起。想問一下我們的主委，目前我們的低軌衛星推動的進度應該是如何？是不是我們的福衛9號還有B5G的低軌衛星都已經預計在2027年發射，這個是不是會如期進行？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們目前規劃，如果預算沒有影響的話會如期，就是116年、2027年我們會發射第一顆通訊，先期就是我們叫B5G的通訊衛星。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是我們現在還是依賴歐洲OneWeb的低軌衛星，我們是要怎麼樣去強化我們自己本身的……就是去降低依賴性，目前有沒有一些近程的計畫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們目前在使用OneWeb的服務，它的頻寬受到限制，沒有辦法擴大，所以我們現在也正在跟其他美國的公司洽談當中，很有可能明年會由美國Amazon Kuiper來提供我們額外的服務。至於國安的需求，我們的國安會也在尋找可能的美國公司在中高軌相關的衛星服務，也在強化當中，所以政府現在其實是對我們的通訊韌性花了很大的力氣，能夠建立相關的能力，確保我們的通訊韌性。因為現在海底光纜被刻意破壞的情況愈來愈嚴重，也造成人民非常大的反感，在這種狀況之下，我們必須要加速我們衛星的能力，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我希望在跟美國有進一步確定合作的時候，也把這樣子的資訊提供給大家。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員的質詢，主委請回座，謝謝。","接著繼續進行質詢，我們請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}},{"id":"159239","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159239","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb46888b907f796d2cfc70f51a359b58cfeba1aea0cf818e91e618dc1a809a36915ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"11:23:11 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謝謝主席 你要麻煩邀請我們陳主委好 陳主委問金子獎 相關的也可以一起上來"},{"start":13.269,"end":35.261,"text":"委員長好 謝謝主委怎麼沒有人要救援你好 金子獎那個業務單位好 這個金子獎嘛這前幾天有新聞嘛那當然今天有很多委員在詢問主委嘛當然大家認為可能金子獎很重要才會被社會來討論我想請教一下金子獎去年跟今年去年的這個發包的決算跟今年的預算大概分別是多少我是請處理說明"},{"start":45.811,"end":65.543,"text":"謝謝委員那去年的決算大概是我們在他有兩部分一個是那個委員的審查費大概將近400萬然後再發包發包的費用大概也是將近500萬左右500萬所以加起來900那我們今年大概應該也是差不多的規模啦頂多都到"},{"start":67.101,"end":91.27,"text":"報告委員我們每年大概成長20%所以我們今年編的大概審查費跟發報費大概是各530萬那大概1000億以內嘛對不對好那今年的我們的業務費那大概就2億嘛那當然動50%那所以說我們實際上目前我們工程會實際能夠用的大概就是1億元嘛那也就是說在我們工程會的認知裡面我們在2億的預算裡面有1億的預算是"},{"start":95.24,"end":121.858,"text":"優先於這個金子獎的審查可以這樣理解嗎如果說我們不辦金子獎的話不是因為業務分在各處技術處、公管處、企劃處是同那個兩位你動了一半那各處都有各處的業務你如果把它挪用來辦金子獎相對排擠其他應辦業務包括重大公共建設的考核等等都會影響到優先順序的問題嘛你怕排擠到別人的所以金子獎"},{"start":122.698,"end":138.816,"text":"可能就是可能順序比較後面嘛也就是說我們今年有一億的預算你認為這一億的優先的順序就在排序的時候金子獎可能沒有在這一億裡面可能是在後面的一億所以你才會說金子獎可能不辦嘛不是這個意思"},{"start":139.497,"end":149.308,"text":"那你就那你就辦啊所有的業務會都在業務我們預算說明欄都有說明是公管數多少錢多少那個企劃數多少錢這個金職獎的說明是1060萬對說明在這裡了"},{"start":154.434,"end":176.821,"text":"去留用其他部會其他業務的預算就排擠其他嘛而且大院同意不同意解凍我們不知道我們就今天當作不解凍嘛對不對你們現在預期不解凍嘛委員認為已經確定不解凍我們要這樣講你們目前就是當作不解凍來說沒辦法辦嘛如果會解凍就會辦嘛對不對我們希望大院能夠盡速解凍"},{"start":177.401,"end":205.126,"text":"你會解凍就會辦嘛這沒有問題嘛對不對因為就按照你們的預算在編嘛就不知道什麼時候解凍對好那就是說我們在給你的一億裡面你不打算用這一億的經費來辦金子獎可以這樣子理解嗎不可以因為這一億裡面有其他業務要用對啊所以這一億裡面沒有要辦金子獎啊金子獎受影響是50%啊是啊受影響50%啊所以你一億裡面沒有要辦嘛你也不可能金子獎只辦一半吧"},{"start":206.26,"end":232.227,"text":"金職獎的確 你要買就要辦 要買就不辦吧沒有辦法說辦一辦 要等著要報名啊所以就是辦跟不辦的差別嘛就是這一千萬你到底要不要花的差別嘛一千萬要花就是一千萬花一千萬不花就是一千萬不花嘛目前我們有一億的預算你不打算花這一千萬嗎是不是這樣理解大院何時解動大院凍結的不只金職獎的預算是所有的業務會凍結一半啦"},{"start":234.248,"end":242.945,"text":"凍結50%嘛對啊就可以看這每一個都凍50嘛因為其他業務也會受影響其他業務受影響是因為它很多所以50%你會去與你的優先順序嘛你會去凍你的優先順序啊"},{"start":246.35,"end":260.915,"text":"這個是大院到底要不要同意我們使用的問題不是我們能不能留用的問題所以好像每個東西都做一半那你議員你告訴我你現在的議員你要幹什麼我們其他的公共建設的審查或其他的議員還可以優先你講不講得出來議員你要拿來做什麼"},{"start":264.076,"end":289.531,"text":"一個部會都有他的預算實際的實際的我們公共建設的審查包括多少錢什麼項目多少錢這有辦法現在提供嗎我們會提供給你好啊那你就告訴在預算裡面我想你們經過仔細的審查我們都是對那個是兩億的狀況嘛對不對那現在你只有一億你會一億優先用在哪些項目我想知道嘛因為目前金子獎可能不辦嘛對不對那你其他東西就會把這一億花光嘛"},{"start":290.54,"end":309.963,"text":"不是一億發光這個一億就是其他業務都各使用一半的情況之下其他的業務也許可以這樣辦一半同意再來辦這個金職獎就一件事情而已現在要嘛辦接受報名然後做一些準備那如果說大院等到今年10月才同意解凍那我們還辦什麼金職獎"},{"start":311.144,"end":321.714,"text":"好沒關係那主委如果說你現在現場提不出來我們這一億目前的規劃要做什麼的話規劃很清楚在預算書裡面大院在審查的時候那是兩億的狀況嘛現在已經是一億嘛對不對那你就會後給我給個書面資料我們優先一億會用在哪些項目那你要說每個項目都50%我也可以接受啊"},{"start":333.726,"end":362.175,"text":"對不對這總是我要知道你50%你要怎麼花嘛我才會看後續的結凍案要怎麼結凍我們的預算使用每一個科目都很清楚而且委員應該有這個預算書啦有啊當然有啊但我不確定你我們沒有辦法跟委員報告說哪些要優先使用就是同商50%嘛對不對那我想知道在不結凍的情況下你50%會用在哪嗎就這麼簡單而已現在我可以跟委員報告其他的科目呢可以用一半但是靜止獎沒辦法用一半再來考量說大院要不要同意"},{"start":362.415,"end":378.305,"text":"好 沒關係 那就會後再給我明確的資料 每一個細項好 那另外我想確認一下 就是解凍三層你們的因為當初是說三層嘛 對不對 剛剛主委也有一直強調這個院會的決議嘛 你們要遵守那三層的部分 其實現在也三月了啦 你們大概用多少了我們我們 業務費 對 業務費"},{"start":390.689,"end":404.741,"text":"所有的業務費你們用到多少了因為我們想知道就30%嘛對不對你現在用多少我們會遵照大院的決定使用30%我們就會嚴厲來提解凍案那我剛才說得很清楚"},{"start":406.462,"end":425.335,"text":"所以現在你們不確定現在動之幾趴了怎麼樣解凍我們還不知道大家原料我們沒關係這會後也可以給資料會後給資料你目前動之幾趴這對我們來說應該很重要啊因為你們30趴才能送嘛你們應該要很清楚現在動到幾趴結果現在花了多少錢好像也沒有辦法很明確的講因為如何解凍程序我們還沒辦法掌握啦"},{"start":425.595,"end":449.5,"text":"但我們都可以先準備嘛就包括你們的報告我們當然會準備都可以先準備包括委員的溝通也私底下都可以溝通嘛程序當然是到了哪時候都可以先走但是很多事情可以溝通的時候就先溝通嘛目前至少委還沒有接收到櫃會來跟我辦公室說要溝通後續的結婚的狀況嘛預算審查的時候在交通委內已經每個委員都有溝通而且交通委內已經審閉了如果說"},{"start":452.202,"end":480.099,"text":"就只講要不要辦我們還要再到大院兩百多個人所以你解通案就是直接送來你也不打算跟院會溝通嘛是不是你們也不打算再溝通嘛是不是溝通就是復議成功那個才是溝通因為你都已經決定是復議了所以到時候你們就直接行政院就送來然後就看你們立法院要不要過嘛就這樣子沒關係啦這個是那個這本來就是你們的權利嘛要不要溝通本來就是你們的權利嘛不是溝通不是要不要溝通你這個復議如果同意復議才有溝通的空間嘛"},{"start":480.979,"end":500.281,"text":"啊你都已經溝通不接受復議嘛不接受復議那個案就會報我指的是解凍案啊解凍案啊我指的是解凍案解凍案就是在預算案的主決議裡面就在預算的主決議裡面所以你不接受復議那就是那個那個案也是在那個主決議但是你後續還是要來解凍嘛對不對你還是會申請嘛"},{"start":501.414,"end":518.877,"text":"我們當然會遵照大院的指示到目前為止還沒有打算想溝通我想確認一下你們會不會有意見你不可以你認為你們不需要那沒關係這就是你們的態度我們還不理解怎麼行使這個解凍程序很多公共工程其實在"},{"start":519.818,"end":547.121,"text":"例行性的很多公共工程其實譬如說地方政府的地方道路的養護等等的他們不會等到預算過了才發包他們也不會等到譬如說今年一一四年度到了才發包他們可能都會在去年發包那並且在這個招標文件裡面可能說明這個預算就是有條件的嘛是預算通過後或者是我們是不是說付諸是預算解凍後來先行做這個相關的發包程序你們有這是"},{"start":548.463,"end":557.44,"text":"可不可以這樣做跟你們程序上可不可以這樣跟你們會不會這樣這兩個部分可以說明嗎有條件的決標是可以做的有條件決標可以做嗎所以說我們有打算要做嗎"},{"start":559.668,"end":584.629,"text":"這個是有錢的狀況之下我知道有預算已經有啦然後什麼時候解凍就可以花嘛對不對可是不知道會不會解凍所以你可以有條件大院沒有給我們一個能不能用啊所以我們如果掛那個條件結標掛有條件的結標你說可以嘛對不對可以但是錢在哪裡對所以你可以先招嘛但是就是錢在哪裡我沒有錢的情況之下沒有辦法辦理這個有條件的結標如果"},{"start":585.531,"end":586.735,"text":"如果給你錢了你還有條件幹嘛啦就是你還不確定你有沒有錢的情況下才是有條件啊"},{"start":591.96,"end":619.241,"text":"我們不是私人機關我們每一筆支出都要有預算都要大院同意所以所有的地方政府在預算還沒有過的情況下你剛剛說可以那現在好像又不行那個是預算通過了沒有通過預算沒有通過沒有人敢做這種決標啦他們都會預算沒有通過沒有一個政府敢做這種決標啦所以不能夠付諸嘛我想你如果待過議會你會知道對所以不能夠付諸我第一點就是跟主委確認這件事有預算"},{"start":619.981,"end":633.616,"text":"才能夠這種有條件的決標比方說我環評通過才來執行沒有說等預算通過再給所以有條件的範圍不包含預算我們預算不知道條件是可能其他條件不包含預算確定要有預算才能上網報告這個沒有人敢來標啦確定齁"},{"start":635.678,"end":652.127,"text":"確定所以是其他單位如果說以後看到相關的相關的這個有關預算的有條件我都報到工程會來那個條件是其他的條件我都來對對對這不是這個預算對對對我知道我清楚主委的意思就是其他的條件您剛剛講的可能環評之類的但是預算這一點公家機關絕對不行應該是這樣子嘛"},{"start":654.045,"end":674.353,"text":"因為他沒有預算沒有通過我印象中應該有一些所以我請教主委如果說我記錯了那可能是我記錯了如果說未來我再發現的話我再提供給主委那不好意思再用一點時間最後一個這個基隆捷運這個現在在交通部那主委不知道有沒有注意到相關的新聞原本的預算大概700億當初行政院核定那最後"},{"start":676.315,"end":684.006,"text":"地方政府評估到1200億嘛那最後如果說現在提到交通部的意思就是說你先按照700億當初核定的預算規模來報"},{"start":685.89,"end":706.585,"text":"來報交通部那交通部合了之後會送到工程會但實際上他可能會到用到一千二兩百億那我們工程會後續的意見會認為這個差距過大嗎希望他先提這個修正報告我指的修正報告就是那個整體的這個基隆捷運的修正報告再來工程會嗎還是說我們也可以先走那最後再來提修正報告"},{"start":707.305,"end":724.133,"text":"我們是審查他的基本設計啦這個基本設計當然牽涉到他這個費用吧也許是這個案是修正計畫是不是是修正計畫鐵道局建議整個工程經費核定了之後再提修正而且 對他們希望今天按700億來提"},{"start":725.376,"end":752.733,"text":"那提我們就審他的基本設計啊你就審他700億嘛你不會針對整個計畫我們就針對工程項目有沒有合理來去審的現在中央政府大概錢的使用是受到很大的限制啦沒有我們是專業審查嘛對不對對OK好那我就確定一下我們不會因為700億跟1200億的差別造成審查上面這些我們就看交通部送什麼樣的基本設計我們就這個基本設計來審對好以上了解謝謝主委好謝謝主席好謝謝廖先祥委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":521,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時23分）謝謝主席，麻煩邀請陳主委。"],["主席：好，陳主委。"],["廖委員先翔：我想問金質獎的問題，相關的官員也可以一起上來。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝主委，怎麼沒有人要救援你？"],["主席：金質獎的業務單位。"],["廖委員先翔：金質獎前幾天有新聞，今天也有很多委員在詢問主委，當然，大家認為可能金質獎很重要，才會被社會討論。我想請教一下，金質獎去年發包的決算跟今年的預算大概分別是多少？"],["陳主任委員金德：是不是請處長說明？"],["廖委員先翔：沒問題。"],["陳處長春錦：謝謝委員。去年的決算有兩部分，一個是委員的審查費，大概將近400萬，然後發包的費用大概也是將近500萬左右。"],["廖委員先翔：500萬，所以加起來900萬？"],["陳處長春錦：對，是。"],["廖委員先翔：今年大概應該也是差不多的規模，頂多多到……"],["陳處長春錦：報告委員，我們每年大概成長20%，所以我們今年的審查費跟發包費編了大概是各530萬。以上。"],["廖委員先翔：大概1,000萬以內，對不對？"],["陳處長春錦：對。"],["廖委員先翔：今年的業務費大概就2億，凍50%，所以實際上目前工程會實際能夠用的大概就是1億元，也就是說，在工程會的認知裡面，在2億的預算裡面，有1億的預算是優先於金質獎的審查，可以這樣理解嗎？如果我們不辦金質獎的話。"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，因為業務分在各處，技術處、工管處、企劃處是2億，被凍了一半，各處都有各處的業務，如果挪用來辦金質獎，相對排擠其他應辦業務，包括重大公共建設的考核等等都會影響到。"],["廖委員先翔：對，就是優先順序的問題，你怕排擠到別人的，所以金質獎可能順序比較後面。也就是說，今年有1億的預算，你認為這1億的優先順序在排序的時候，金質獎可能沒有在這1億裡面，可能是在後面的1億，所以你才會說金質獎可能不辦嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：不是這個意思，因為……"],["廖委員先翔：那你就辦啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：所有的業務費都在我們的預算說明欄有說明，包括工管處多少錢、企劃處多少錢，這個金質獎的說明是1,060萬，已經說明在這裡了，去流用其他部會、其他業務的預算，就排擠其他嘛。"],["廖委員先翔：對呀。"],["陳主任委員金德：而且大院同不同意解凍，我們不知道。"],["廖委員先翔：我們今天就當作不解凍，對不對？你們現在預期不解凍嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：如果委員認為已經確定不解凍……"],["廖委員先翔：我沒有這樣講。"],["陳主任委員金德：的確金質獎沒辦法辦。"],["廖委員先翔：你們目前就是當作不解凍來說沒辦法辦，如果解凍就會辦，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們希望大院能夠儘速解凍。"],["廖委員先翔：會解凍就會辦，這沒有問題，對不對？就按照你們編的預算，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：不知道什麼時候解凍。"],["廖委員先翔：好。那就是說，我們給你的1億裡面，你不打算用這1億的經費來辦金質獎，可以這樣子理解嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：不可以，因為這1億裡面有其他業務要用。"],["廖委員先翔：對，這1億裡面沒有要辦金質獎啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：金質獎……受影響的是50%，受影響的是50%啊。"],["廖委員先翔：所以你1億裡面沒有要辦嘛，你也不可能金質獎只辦一半吧。"],["陳主任委員金德：金質獎的確沒辦法……"],["廖委員先翔：你要嘛就辦，要嘛就不辦。"],["陳主任委員金德：沒有辦法說辦一半，因為大家等著要報名了。"],["廖委員先翔：對呀，所以就是辦跟不辦的差別，就是這1,000萬你到底要不要花的差別。1,000萬要花就是花1,000萬，1,000萬不花就是1,000萬不花。目前你們有1億的預算，你不打算花這1,000萬，是不是這樣理解？"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，大院何時解凍……大院凍結的不只金質獎的預算，是所有的業務費凍結一半。"],["廖委員先翔：就凍結50%嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["廖委員先翔：對呀，就可以看成每一個都凍50%嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，因為其他業務也會受影響。"],["廖委員先翔：對呀。"],["陳主任委員金德：其他業務受影響，是因為它很多……"],["廖委員先翔：所以這50%你們去勻你們的優先順序，對不對？你會去動你的優先順序。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個是大院到底要不要同意我們使用的問題，不是我們能不能流用的問題。"],["廖委員先翔：好，每個東西都凍一半，你告訴我，現在這1億你要幹什麼？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們其他公共建設的審查或其他的業務還可以優先次序……"],["廖委員先翔：另外給我細項，你講不講得出來？1億元你要拿來做什麼？"],["陳主任委員金德：各部會都有它的預算，各單位都有它的預算。"],["廖委員先翔：對呀，實際的。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們公共建設的審查，包括……"],["廖委員先翔：多少錢？什麼項目多少錢有辦法現在提供嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會提供給你。"],["廖委員先翔：好，你就告訴……"],["陳主任委員金德：而且在預算裡面，我想你們也經過仔細的審查，我們都是……"],["廖委員先翔：對，那個是2億的狀況，對不對？現在你只有1億，你會把這1億優先用在哪裡項目，我想知道，因為目前金質獎可能不辦，對不對？你其他的東西就會把這1億花光嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：不是1億花光，這個1億就是其他業務都各使用一半的情況之下，其他的業務也許可以辦一半，經過同意再來辦。這個金質獎只有一件事情而已，現在要嘛辦，接受報名，然後做一些準備；如果大院等到今年10月才同意解凍，那我們還辦什麼金質獎？"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，主委，如果你現在現場提不出來這1億目前的規劃要做什麼的話，會後……"],["陳主任委員金德：我們的規劃很清楚……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，我是說你……"],["陳主任委員金德：在預算書裡面，大院在審查的時候清清楚楚、清清楚楚！"],["廖委員先翔：那是2億的狀況，現在你就剩1億，對不對？你就會後給個書面資料，說明1億會優先用在哪些項目，你要是說每個項目都50%，我也可以接受，對不對？總是我要知道這50%你要怎麼花，我才會看後續的解凍案要怎麼解凍。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們的預算使用，每個科目都很清楚，而且委員應該有預算書。"],["廖委員先翔：當然有啊，但我不確定你……"],["陳主任委員金德：我們沒有辦法跟委員報告哪些要優先使用。"],["廖委員先翔：就是統刪50%，對不對？我想知道在不解凍的情況下，你這50%會用在哪裡，就這麼簡單而已，就這麼簡單。"],["陳主任委員金德：現在我可以跟委員報告，其他的科目可以用一半，但是金質獎沒辦法用一半再來考量大院要不要同意。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，那就會後再給我明確的資料，包括每個細項。","另外，我想確認一下，當初是說三成，剛剛主委也有一直強調，院會的決議你們要遵守。三成的部分，其實現在也3月了，你們大概用多少了？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們……"],["廖委員先翔：對，業務費。"],["陳主任委員金德：所有的業務費……"],["廖委員先翔：你們用掉多少了？我們想知道，就是30%，對不對？你們現在用多少了？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會遵照大院的決定，使用30%，我們就會研議來提凍結案。"],["廖委員先翔：所以你現在……"],["陳主任委員金德：我剛才說得很清楚……"],["廖委員先翔：所以你們不確定現在動支幾趴了？"],["陳主任委員金德：怎麼樣解凍我們還不知道，大院要我們怎麼……"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，會後也可以給資料，就是你目前動支幾%了，這對我們來說應該很重要啊！因為要30%你們才能送，所以你們應該要很清楚現在動了幾%，結果你們現在花了多少錢，好像也沒有辦法很明確的講出來。"],["陳主任委員金德：因為如何解凍的程序我們還沒辦法掌握。"],["廖委員先翔：但還是可以先準備，包括你們的報告。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們當然會準備。"],["廖委員先翔：這都可以先準備，包括跟委員的溝通，其實私底下都可以溝通，程序當然是到時候再走，但是很多事情可以溝通的時候就先溝通，目前至少我也還沒有接收到貴會有來跟我辦公室溝通後續解凍的狀況。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，預算審查的時候都已經跟交通委員會每個委員有溝通了，而且交通委員會都已經審畢了，如果金質獎要不要辦一事，我們還要再到大院向一百多個委員說明……"],["廖委員先翔：所以解凍案你就是打算直接送來，不打算跟院會溝通、不打算再溝通，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：溝通就是覆議成功，那個才是溝通，因為你都已經決定覆議……"],["廖委員先翔：到時候就是行政院送來，然後就看立法院要不要過，是不是這樣子？沒關係！要不要溝通本來就是你們的權利。"],["陳主任委員金德：不是要不要溝通，如果同意覆議才有溝通的空間，現在都已經溝通，不接受覆議嘛！不接受覆議後，那個案子就會到……"],["廖委員先翔：我指的是解凍案。"],["陳主任委員金德：解凍案就是在預算案的主決議裡面，所以你不接受覆議，那個案也是在那個主決議……"],["廖委員先翔：但是你後續還是要來解凍，對不對？你還是會申請嘛？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們當然會遵照大院的指示……"],["廖委員先翔：所以到目前為止還沒有打算來溝通嘛！我想確認一下你們會不會而已，你認為你們不需要那沒關係，這就是你們的態度嘛！"],["陳主任委員金德：我們還不理解怎麼行使這個解凍程序。"],["廖委員先翔：另外，其實在例行性的很多公共工程，譬如說地方政府地方道路的養護等等，他們不會等到預算過了才發包，譬如說他們不會等到今（114）年度到了才發包，可能會在去年發包，並且在招標文件裡面可能會說明這個預算的條件，就是俟預算通過後，或者是俟預算解凍後，然後先行做相關的發包程序，程序上可不可以這樣做，以及你們會不會這樣做，這兩個部分可以說明嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：有條件的決標是可以做的。"],["廖委員先翔：有條件的決標可以做，所以我們有打算要做嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：這是在有錢的狀況之下，我知道預算已經有了，然後什麼時候……"],["廖委員先翔：解凍就可以做了，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：可是不知道會不會解凍嘛！大院沒有給我們能不能用……"],["廖委員先翔：可以嘛！對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：可以，但是錢在哪裡？"],["廖委員先翔：所以你可以先招標，但是……"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，錢在哪裡不清楚，也就是我在沒有錢的情況之下，沒有辦法辦理有條件的決標。"],["廖委員先翔：如果給你錢了，你還有條件要幹嘛呢？就是你還不確定有沒有錢的情況下，才會有條件，是吧？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們不是私人機關，每一筆支出都有預算，都要大院同意。"],["廖委員先翔：所以針對所有地方政府在預算還沒有過的情況下，你剛剛說可以但現在好像又不行。"],["陳主任委員金德：那個是預算通過了。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有通過啊！"],["陳主任委員金德：預算沒有通過，沒有政府敢做這種決標啦！"],["廖委員先翔：所以不能夠附註嘛！是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：我想你如果待過議會，應該就會知道。"],["廖委員先翔：所以不能夠附註？第一點，就是跟主委確認這件事。"],["陳主任委員金德：有預算才能夠做這種有條件的決標，比方說環評通過才來執行，並沒有等預算通過再給。"],["廖委員先翔：所以有條件的範圍不包含預算，條件可能是其他條件，不包含預算？確定要有預算才能上網發包？"],["陳主任委員金德：這樣沒有人敢發包啦！"],["廖委員先翔：確定？確定，所以其他單位如果以後看到有關於預算有條件的，我都會報到工程會來。"],["陳主任委員金德：那個條件是其他的條件，並不是這個預算。"],["廖委員先翔：對！對！對！我知道，我清楚主委的意思，就是其他的條件，包括您剛剛講的環評之類的，但是預算這一點，公家機關絕對不行，應該是這樣子吧？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為預算沒有通過，沒有人敢發包的。"],["廖委員先翔：好，我了解，因為我印象中應該有一些，所以來請教主委，可能是我記錯了，如果未來有再發現的話，我再提供給主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：好。"],["廖委員先翔：不好意思，再占用一點時間，最後一個是基隆捷運，這部分現在在交通部，主委不知道有沒有注意到相關的新聞，原本的預算當初行政院核定的大概是700億，最後地方政府評估是到1,200億，現在交通部的意思是先按照當初核定的預算規模700億報到交通部，交通部核了之後會再送到工程會，但實際上它可能會用到1,200億，那工程會後續的意見會認為這個差距過大嗎？會希望它先提修正報告給工程會嗎？我指的修正報告就是整體的基隆捷運修正報告，還是我們也可以先走，最後再提修正報告？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們是審查它的基本設計，這個基本設計當然牽涉到它的費用，也許這個案子是修正計畫，是不是？"],["廖委員先翔：鐵道局建議整個工程經費核定了之後再提修正，他們希望先按700億來提。"],["陳主任委員金德：提出了我們就審它的基本設計。"],["廖委員先翔：你就會審那700億，不會針對整個計畫，即你會針對工程項目有沒有合理來進行審查。"],["陳主任委員金德：現在中央政府錢的使用大概是受到很大的限制。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有，我們是專業審查，對不對？"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["廖委員先翔：好，就確定一下，我們不會因為700億跟1,200億的差別造成審查上的差異。"],["陳主任委員金德：就看交通部送什麼樣的基本設計，我們會就整個基本設計來審查。"],["廖委員先翔：好，了解，以上，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。現在請徐富癸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},{"id":"159238","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159238","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb23c622125da3c988fc70f51a359b58cfeba1aea0cf818e9185ef96e8213ea40c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:10:08 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請陳主委好 陳主委主委早這個主委預算刪除凍結這麼嚴重"},{"start":24.048,"end":44,"text":"其實本席在質詢裡也有點辛苦啦因為涉及到預算的我都不問了啦你就沒錢我自己問一半是在問什麼所以如果我待會不小心還有問到跟預算有關係你就直接告訴本席說報告委員預算被動或者被刪所以沒辦法執行好"},{"start":48.703,"end":53.63,"text":"這個預算啦這個送院會解凍這個本席也沒有"},{"start":54.639,"end":80.214,"text":"印象中也很少聽到這樣子解凍就在委員會現在這個可能要請議事處再研議看看送院會解凍的程序到底是要不要交付委員會先審再回送給院會來審這個可能大院要去研究一下因為至少在我印象裡面好像送院會解凍這個"},{"start":82.523,"end":101.119,"text":"不知道,不管先回到我們的主題這個工程會,我的辦公室有問了一下最近大家都在做這個發包,都在做這個減項就做這個減項招標這個減項招標,都是因應著物價上漲"},{"start":108.817,"end":134.202,"text":"那因為中央政府要地方政府要經費不足嘛那經費不足的情況底下事情很重要又要做所以呢我們就把它做減相的發包那這個減相發包本來本席就覺得這個問題很大因為等於是我們錢還不一定夠但菜都先點了"},{"start":135.407,"end":159.902,"text":"那我們是預期反正一邊吃錢還會有人送過來餐廳所以我們就繼續吃那現在問題更嚴重的原因是因為我們原先帶來的錢又被刪除本來已經帶夠了但因為這個其他因素又把我們帶來餐廳要吃飯的錢又凍結又刪除所以這個減項發包的問題會越來越嚴重那"},{"start":165.779,"end":182.487,"text":"工程會這邊有提出這個減向發包這個主要還是因為大概有九成都是因為物價上漲這個沒有足夠的經費所以我們做這樣的一個調整那減向發包最後就會發現幾個問題譬如說這個台北中校橋"},{"start":191.349,"end":219.674,"text":"這個引橋拆除兩次流標那北市要檢向發包那這個檢向發包啊有沒有可能會出現這個有橋沒有路燈那像我們這個啊台中啊像大甲國中啊這個手球啊手球館它檢向發包的結果就是房子蓋好了裡面不可以打手球而且沒有門"},{"start":220.814,"end":248.387,"text":"沒有門 因為門當時檢像發包所以沒有門所以檢像發包它會產生我認為它會有一些問題譬如說報紙也看到醫院蓋但檢像發包所以醫院沒有防火門所以這個檢像發包的問題主委 這個的確是應該要認真工程會恐怕要認真來講否則以後這個案例會越來越多而且越來越荒謬"},{"start":249.704,"end":276.755,"text":"就不久之後我們就會看到這個本來檢向了那本來預期這個今年要補結果預算又被刪又被凍所以不能補不能補就會發現就會出現很多很荒謬的建築物或者很荒謬的案例我剛剛已經舉了幾個啦比如說我們手球場沒有門的啦譬如說可能蓋路橋沒路燈的啦譬如說醫院沒有防火門的啦"},{"start":277.795,"end":289.445,"text":"那我相信會越來越多所以這個要不要工程會要不要有一個統一性的指示對於檢像發包到底要怎麼來規範才不會出現這種亂象"},{"start":294.415,"end":309.473,"text":"剪相發包那當然也是目前政府採購法裡面這個有規範的一個發包方式那有時候是因為比方說這個原設計的費用跟他預期能夠獲得中央的補助"},{"start":310.174,"end":328.526,"text":"有所落差或者是他獲得議會同意的預算有所落差那在不影響主要的這個工程的核心核心需求之下那麼去檢向發包那未來他有機會再擴充可能中央也同意說"},{"start":329.506,"end":349.326,"text":"夏年度或以後年度一定會給你那這種情形有時候是有在進行但是至於把主要的核心的價值不考慮那麼在預算還沒有確定的狀況之下做了一些比較不符合常規的減向花包那這部分的確工程會的確要來檢討"},{"start":350.948,"end":368.169,"text":"那把這些太陽啊列為一個相對的教材那麼韓班各機關那麼對檢像花苞這件事情應該有一些負面表列要避開的這一類我們會同意蔡委員的這個主張我們會立即來改善"},{"start":369.332,"end":398.321,"text":"好 謝謝主委啦 應該要有一些規範啦沒有規範 譬如說你要什麼樣的前提底下你減相發包是可以的什麼樣的狀況底下是不可以的譬如說什麼美術館減相發包那完工後還需要20億結果可能完工後沒有辦法使用就是殼子蓋好在裡面可能沒錢嘛那我的意思是說這個本來就算預算沒有被動被刪也可能會發生"},{"start":399.361,"end":427.717,"text":"就大家地方政府可能搶著 要有政績嘛就轉到花包出去了結果呢 什麼東西卡好卡好內容就沒有辦法所以會有很多那種案子就是奇怪大家看殼都已經蓋好了 為什麼遲遲不能使用那本席的意思就是說今年啊因為又預算遇到這個把中央的預算動成這樣 砍成這個樣子那所以可能這個問題本來就算我承諾你的"},{"start":428.564,"end":445.084,"text":"沒問題我本來可以承諾你結果沒想到沒有發生過預算被人家砍成這個樣子所以可能就沒有辦法承諾了就沒辦法履行那個承諾所以我同意主委啦就是你把它檢討一下就是什麼樣的樣態底下不可以再"},{"start":446.285,"end":474.324,"text":"這樣子的方式去發包就檢像發包應該是要有條件的情況底下才可以進行這個檢像發包另外就是如果檢像發包預期要擴充那這個訊息要揭露不能只有單獨幾家知道其他的不知道會擴充而且擴充可能擴充很多所以這訊息是要揭露沒錯因為揭露在標的過程才會公平OK這個我覺得這個建議是很好的"},{"start":476.065,"end":504.553,"text":"第二個我想跟主委請教那個CSR納入評比這個事情看起來公共工程會做的這應該是主計單位吧 審計處做的中央機關大概有三層做CSR的評比就是最有力標啦最有力標有納入CSR的中央大概三層國營事業大概四層地方政府僅有一層"},{"start":505.578,"end":531.336,"text":"那我們都知道CSR你要最有利標我們要意思就是說我們評選 透過評選評選出最好的公司 最優質的公司能力最好的公司那這裡面有很多條件要去審核那這CSR的納入評比的比例這麼低像地方政府只有一成納入那這CSR裡面涉及到工資合不合理嘛薪資結構合不合理"},{"start":532.156,"end":547.434,"text":"那像這樣的一個照顧勞工考量這個勞工的權益的部分這種薪資合理化的這個部分所以有沒有什麼方法或者是未來有什麼計畫讓這個CSR納入評比的比例可以拉升"},{"start":549.363,"end":573.57,"text":"好 謝謝蔡委員那麼我們目前正在整理相關的法規會朝向ESG方向來進行過去我們都講CSR目前因為環境重視所以用ESG當然我們會在評選的部分希望各機關在辦理有利標然後評選的時候"},{"start":575.35,"end":590.925,"text":"有做到一定標準的他應該給他一定的分數來鼓勵企業那包括我們主席很重視的勞工的薪資的部分也都會納入加分的項目不過呢這個ESG或CSR有做沒做還是說做好做壞"},{"start":592.472,"end":614.408,"text":"有時候會差很多啦就有的公司可能那個永續報告寫得很漂亮那事實上沒在做啦所以這裡我們在還在思考用什麼樣的標準比較明確說這個公司他很努力在做ESG或者他已經做了10年了做20年了不是去年才做的那他有沒有像像這個"},{"start":617.131,"end":636.386,"text":"這個經管會或證交所他上市公司有沒有提永續報告這我們就規劃一個比較嚴謹的方式來鼓勵企業重視企業社會責任或者是環境這樣的或者相關的公司治理我們都會來考量這個會遵照蔡委員的交代來重新訂購一個比較嚴謹的標準"},{"start":638.348,"end":661.317,"text":"好 這個主委你也知道問題啦 第一個目標要清楚啦ESG也好 CSI也好 其實都是企業社會責任的指標那這個事情要推 政府再不動就很困難嘛 特別是在有利標但如同主委剛剛講的 也有可能會有公不公平 或者真的有落實嗎 這種疑慮 所以可能"},{"start":662.417,"end":677.842,"text":"評比的百分比或者我們有訂定另外一套去合格查實的這個方法 這個本席都支持那態度先有了後面就會慢慢推動嘛 好不好最後一個 這個"},{"start":679.082,"end":692.085,"text":"本席跟交通部這麼多年來一直在爭取這個我們台中大甲溪橋跟大安溪橋的改建那交通部跟本席講說已經送到工程會來審議那主委你知道這個案子嗎我是請我們這個處長來說明好不好這是屬於基本設計審查"},{"start":702.128,"end":711.934,"text":"就我們台中大甲西橋跟大安西橋年久了嘛現在公路局希望把它本席爭取要改建嘛來可不可以說明一下處長報告委員齁這個案子的改建案交通部已經送到我們工程會來審議齁那目前已經送送往國發會那國發會的現在已經在會診中"},{"start":732.434,"end":735.613,"text":"所以我們預期他的進度大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":735.919,"end":764.35,"text":"那國安會如果審閉行政院就會核定所以基本上等國安會應該很快如果基本設計就是工程會審閉國安會這部分只是一個改建沒有相關的環評或相關的問題國安會審這個會很快所以工程會審了我們審了才會送國安會已經出去了簡單講是這樣子那已經不在你們追案子已經不在工程會了是在國安會了這樣就好了謝謝"},{"start":767.026,"end":767.228,"text":"好 謝謝我們"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":482,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時10分）謝謝主席，請陳主委。"],["主席：陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：蔡委員早。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委早。主委，預算的刪除、凍結這麼嚴重，其實本席質詢你也有一點辛苦，因為涉及到預算的我都不問了，你就沒錢，我還在這邊問半天也不知道可以問什麼，所以待會如果不小心問到跟預算有關的，你就直接告訴本席，報告委員，預算被凍或者被刪所以沒辦法執行。","預算送院會解凍，本席印象中也很少聽到這樣的，解凍就是在委員會嘛！現在這個可能要請議事人員、請議事處再研議看看送院會解凍的程序到底要不要交付委員會先審，再回送給院會審，這個可能大院要去研究一下，至少在我印象裡面，好像送院會解凍……這個不知道。","不管了，先回到我們的主題，我的辦公室問了工程會一下，最近大家發包都在做減項，也就是減項招標，這個減項招標，都是因應著物價上漲，因為中央政府也好，地方政府也好都經費不足，在經費不足的情況底下，事情很重要，又要做，所以就把它做減項發包。對於這個減項發包，本來本席就覺得問題很大，因為等於是我們錢還不一定夠，但菜都先點了，我們是預期反正一邊吃，錢還會有人送過來餐廳，所以我們就繼續吃。現在問題更嚴重的原因是因為，我們原先帶來的錢又被刪除了，本來已經帶夠了，因為其他因素，又把我們帶來餐廳要吃飯的錢又凍結、又刪除，所以這個減項發包的問題會愈來愈嚴重。","工程會這邊有提出減項發包，主要大概有九成都是因為物價上漲，沒有足夠的經費所以做這樣的調整，減項發包最後就會發現幾個問題，譬如臺北的忠孝橋，引橋拆除兩次流標，北市要減項發包，這個減項發包有沒有可能會出現有橋沒有路燈的情形？像我們臺中的大甲國中手球館，它減項發包的結果就是房子蓋好了，裡面不可以打手球，而且沒有門，因為門當時被減項發包，所以沒門。","我認為減項發包會產生一些問題，譬如報紙也看到了，醫院要蓋但要減項發包，所以醫院沒有防火門，所以這個減項發包的問題，主委，這個的確應該要認真，工程會恐怕要認真一下，否則以後這樣的案例會愈來愈多，而且也愈來愈荒謬，不久之後我們就會看到本來減項了，本來預期今年要補，結果預算被刪又被凍，所以不能補，不能補就會出現很多很荒謬的建築物，或者是很荒謬的案例。我剛剛已經舉了幾個了，像是我們的手球場沒有門，譬如說蓋路橋可能沒路燈，譬如說醫院沒有防火門，我相信這會愈來愈多。主委，這個工程會要不要有個統一性的指示，對於減項發包到底要怎麼規範，才不會出現這種亂象？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員，減項發包當然也是目前政府採購法裡面有規範的發包方式，有時候原設計的費用跟它預期能夠獲得的中央補助有所落差，或者是與它能獲得議會同意的預算有所落差。在不影響主要工程的核心需求之下去減項發包，未來它有機會再擴充，可能中央也同意，下年度或以後年度一定會給你，這種情形有時候是有在進行，但是不考慮核心價值，在預算還沒有確定的狀況之下，做了一些比較不符合常規的減項發包，這部分工程會的確要來檢討，把這些態樣列為相對的教材，函頒各機關對減項發包這件事情，應該要有一些負面表列要避開的，這一類我們會同意蔡委員的主張，我們會立即改善。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝主委，應該要有一些規範，譬如你要在什麼樣的前提底下，你減項發包是可以的，什麼樣的狀況底下是不可以的。譬如美術館減項發包，完工後還需要20億，結果完工後可能沒有辦法使用，也就是殼子蓋好了，但裡面可能沒錢。我的意思是說，這個就算預算沒有被凍、被刪，也可能會發生，就是地方政府大家可能搶著要有政績，於是就全部發包出去，結果東西蓋好了、殼建好了，內容卻沒有辦法，所以會有很多那種案子，就是大家看殼都已經蓋好了，為什麼遲遲不能使用？本席的意思就是說，今年因為遇到把中央的預算凍成這樣、砍成這個樣子，所以可能這個問題，本來就算我承諾你了，沒問題，我本來可以承諾你的，結果沒想到，沒有發生過預算被人家砍成這個樣子，所以可能就沒有辦法履行那個承諾了。所以我同意主委，你把它檢討一下，就是對於什麼樣態底下，不可以再以這樣子的方式去發包，減項發包應該是要在有條件的情況底下才可以進行。"],["陳主任委員金德：另外就是，如果減項發包預期要擴充，這個訊息要揭露啦！不能只有單獨幾家知道，其他的不知道會擴充。"],["蔡委員其昌：對、對、對。"],["陳主任委員金德：而且也有可能會擴充很多，所以這個訊息是要揭露。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯，因為揭露後，在標的過程才會公平，OK，我覺得這個建議是很好的。","第二個我想跟主委請教，把CSR納入評比這個事情，看起來工程會做了……這個應該是主計單位、審計部做的，中央機關大概有三成做CSR的評比，也就是最有利標有納入CSR的，中央大概是三成，國營事業大概是四成，地方政府僅有一成，我們都知道CSR要做最有利標，意思就是，我們透過評選要評選出最好的公司、最優質的公司、能力最好的公司，這裡面有很多條件要去審核。這個CSR納入評比的比例這麼低，像地方政府只有一成納入，這個CSR裡面涉及到工資合不合理、薪資結構合不合理，像這樣的一個照顧勞工、考量勞工權益的部分，也就是薪資合理化的部分，主委有沒有什麼方法或者是未來有沒有什麼計畫讓這個CSR納入評比的比例可以拉升？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝蔡委員，我們目前正在整理相關的法規，會朝向ESG的方向進行，過去我們都講CSR，目前因為環境重視，所以用ESG。當然，我們會在評選的部分，希望各機關在辦理最有利標，進行評選的時候，對做到一定標準的，應該要給予一定的分數來鼓勵企業，包括我們主席很重視的勞工薪資部分，也都會納入加分的項目。不過ESG或CSR有做、沒有做或是做得好、做得不好，有時候會差很多，就是有的公司可能永續報告寫得很漂亮，事實上卻沒有在做。所以我們還在思考用什麼樣的標準比較明確，譬如這家公司很努力在做ESG，或者是它已經做了10年、20年了，而不是去年才做的，或是身為上市公司，它有沒有向金管會或證交所提永續報告？我們正在規劃一個比較嚴謹的方式，鼓勵企業重視企業社會責任、環境保護或相關的公司治理，我們都會來考量，並遵照蔡委員的交代重新訂定一個比較嚴謹的標準。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。主委也知道問題所在，第一個，目標清楚，ESG也好、CSR也好，其實都是企業社會責任的指標，這個事情要推，政府再不動就很困難，特別像最有利標。但如同主委剛剛講的，也有可能會有公不公平或者有沒有真的落實這種疑慮，所以不管是評比的百分比或者訂定另外一套去合格查實的方法，本席都支持，態度先有了，後面就會慢慢推動，好不好？","最後一個，本席跟交通部這麼多年來一直在爭取臺中大甲溪橋跟大安溪橋的改建，交通部跟本席講說已經送到工程會來審議，主委，你知道這個案子嘛？"],["陳主任委員金德：我是不是請我們處長來說明，好不好？這是屬於基本設計審查。"],["蔡委員其昌：就是我們臺中大甲溪橋跟大安溪橋年代久遠，現在本席爭取要改建，可不可以說明一下？"],["主席：處長。"],["曾處長鈞敏：報告委員，關於這個案子的改建案，交通部已經送到我們工程會來審議，目前已經送往國發會，國發會現在已經在彙整中。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，所以我們預期它的進度大概是怎麼樣？"],["陳主任委員金德：國發會如果審畢，行政院就會核定。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，所以基本上……"],["陳主任委員金德：國發會應該會很快……"],["蔡委員其昌：很快。"],["陳主任委員金德：如果基本設計……就是工程會審畢，國發會這部分只是一個改建……"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["陳主任委員金德：沒有環評或相關的問題，國發會審這個會很快。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以工程會審了？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們審了，才會送國發會協審……"],["蔡委員其昌：送國發會，已經出去了，簡單講是這樣子。"],["陳主任委員金德：它會問我們的意見。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，已經不在你們這裡了，所以案子已經不在工程會了？"],["陳主任委員金德：是，在國發會。"],["蔡委員其昌：OK，這樣就好了。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌副院長。","接下來請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},{"id":"159237","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159237","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb395b12177e409c8afc70f51a359b58cfeba1aea0cf818e91f08deeda106faf485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:59:21 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感謝主席 本席邀請我們工程會陳主委好 陳主委委員長主委好 各位 早上大概有有些委員也在問你那個預算被凍結的事情"},{"start":28.767,"end":50.803,"text":"現在我查一下我們工程會主要的預算都是被凍結案然後他當時的凍結的條件是你要凍資30%業務費你要花掉30%你才能送解凍案對不對那剛有人說我們工程會為什麼不先送解凍"},{"start":52.031,"end":76.438,"text":"看起來好像你不能送按照這個質疑上按照大院的主決議審查預算的主決議是動資超過30%然後就要才可以來申請解凍但是解凍是在院會我知道他這個當時的審議結果是要送院會才能解凍"},{"start":77.981,"end":97.452,"text":"我講不要說我們交委會有很多都是第一屆的立委就算資深的立委我在立法院十幾年了我從來沒有看過預算解凍要送院會送院會是要解凍程序上前第一個你要花掉30%你才能送解凍案你什麼時候可以花掉30%"},{"start":101.019,"end":116.103,"text":"你可以拿捏嗎就是30%以後我們也會尊重大院的決議我們一定會提出提出就是說第一個程序上我們還不清楚大院要怎麼處理院會同意的這個解凍的程序第二個"},{"start":117.823,"end":141.222,"text":"會不會同意使用事實上是不知道因為如果院會不像貴委員會一樣那麼好溝通那我們在委員會裡面因為幾個會期都在一起比較了解我們的業務但大院那邊院會來惡毒處理解凍案是沒有這種經驗所以不知道程序上要花多久根本沒有發生過這種事情"},{"start":142.708,"end":171.302,"text":"那你現在照理講預算案其實就是法律案啦程序上就算解凍第一個齁時間你不能現在就馬上送啦對不對所以工程會不能送因為你必須要業務費動資30%以後你才能送那程序上你是應該一樣要送到委員會來委員會要先審過嘛但是審過不算就解凍齁大概幾乎等於法案的一睹"},{"start":173.886,"end":180.438,"text":"就一讀以後送到委員會來一樣委員會審完然後再送院會那你這個解凍案是算二讀嗎"},{"start":182.694,"end":204.623,"text":"你這個解凍案應該就不是報告案對 按照大院的決議 院會那應該是二讀照在野黨的那個 看起來那個精神就是審議案對 就是審議案那你審議案 院會要給你解凍院會必須要院長專門召開一個預算的解凍 解凍院會"},{"start":206.741,"end":228.802,"text":"因為你不能自己去嘛因為行政院長要因為議長還可以讓院長才能帶部會首長到院會去啦對就是部長是不能在院會啦你要議長幫你找嘛應該是行政院長才有如果能夠排到讓你們各部會去解凍那個大概就是曹偉先生啦因為議長要擺嘛"},{"start":232.694,"end":259.091,"text":"那你知道各部會有多少需要到院會去解凍的嗎不少工程會是一但還有其他部會還有你要看院會的那個時程啦你有沒有時間排啦因為你現在是總諮詢嘛總諮詢大概到4月下旬才會結束啦結束以後我們還有一些法案"},{"start":260.951,"end":285.671,"text":"意思是說 除非啦 朝野協商啦大家能夠同意啦 預算解凍案優先啦這個大概要看朝野的氣氛啦他如果沒跟你排 你是不是要解凍你連解凍的機會也沒有 對不對而且看起來啊 那個是必須要以審議案的狀況進行那就是要排行政院長到會啦"},{"start":287.498,"end":303.663,"text":"行政省到院會來率領這些部會就解凍案來讓立法院的院會進行審議而且要審議通過喔對我們的理解是這樣子其實這種結論我覺得這是根本亂來反其道而行因為你都剝削了我們委員會審查的權利"},{"start":314.52,"end":340.889,"text":"你預算凍結刪除其實最重要是委員會我們整個會期每天要報告或諮詢為什麼委員會中心要出來大家要強調這一點如果彭委員會的立委相較上一定比較熟悉了解業務是不是這樣所以你要刪要凍其實應該是委員會相對的你要解凍也一樣在委員會"},{"start":342.372,"end":346.813,"text":"所以能不能同意解凍案應該是委員會的權利嘛他有提議院會對不對我們的副院長也坐在下面嘛我從來沒碰過預算解凍案送院會去決定的那委員會要怎麼做如果你解凍案送到我們委員會來我們審查的結論假設我們都同意解凍也沒有用啦"},{"start":371.138,"end":380.288,"text":"因為委員會沒有權力決定嘛 還要送院會去做最後的一個裁決嘛這樣委員會我們就心煩肚子餓了我們就沒有權力決定嘛你院會一百多個立委 大家會了解你工程會意義上幹什麼嗎一定是本委員會的委員會才知道嘛"},{"start":392.634,"end":418.688,"text":"所以這個絕對啊 第一個我覺得時程上你要先花掉30%你才能送30%沒花 花不夠 你也不能上解凍案 對不對就是你上解凍案 你也要拜託我們召委你我召委 這要給他善意 你就要拜託拜託召委 趕快給我們擺解凍案的委員會審查我們如果審查了 也不遵守 因為你要再送院會"},{"start":419.648,"end":447.97,"text":"那還要看院會 當然要朝野生生看那時候的氣氛啦拜託韓院長 看什麼時候可以把我們的解凍案排進去所以 這個會不會影響業務 我看這這要到五月五月六月了那當然會影響業務嘛五月底就馬上又要休會啦然後又要休會了 那時候 而且這當中之間要審查的法律案不知道有多少啦"},{"start":449.226,"end":467.295,"text":"對不對 你總不能把任何時間全部都浪費在解凍案這根本就浪費時間嘛 你應該是讓委員會來決定嘛那就你的報告啦 就我們主委的報告啦你現在預算這些被凍結大概有幾項事項會受到影響嘛"},{"start":468.379,"end":481.787,"text":"你自己說的 就是工程的一些裁定像你去年 我看你的報告裡面 我們來看一下爭議採購案件有786件你開會有開了1034個會議 調解會議47次就是標不出去的流標專案會議有8次 有8個案"},{"start":493.214,"end":505.345,"text":"另外還有採購諸行會六個案你這些大概都是必須要你業務你必須要做這是你的本業你的專業啦每個月大概受以八十件禮業爭議調解你現在要怎麼開業務會嘛要怎麼開業務會啊"},{"start":509.269,"end":526.467,"text":"你說會不會影響 其實影響到的是一些廠商啦 民間廠商跟業主就是公部門有糾紛的啦這大部分都在這啦 生涯不是人民的權利嘛所以我們也希望啦 就這個部分啦 能夠"},{"start":529.704,"end":554.921,"text":"大家能夠有一個可以解決了那以目前的草原分委來看喔我看你要慢慢等啦我也不知道什麼時候可以才可以排到你們的所謂預算案可以送到院會去解凍喔沒有你要先花掉30%咧那你們要趕快開開啊為了救後面的70%那前面30%趕快亂花啊不然你怎麼知道你當時可以花掉30%是不是這樣"},{"start":558.871,"end":564.607,"text":"那就你目前政協會影響的這種 這種你的業務啊就你所報告的啦 那你怎麼處理"},{"start":568.072,"end":592.247,"text":"金職講的部分我們希望能夠比較明確能夠盡速來解凍啦這個才能夠辦法著手進行啦那其他重大公件的查核啦管控啦 督導啦那我們就還是按照過去的技師證照 核發技師證照因為凍結一半嘛 只能用一半的錢嘛那如果說一半用完了大概就停擺了啦"},{"start":592.847,"end":607.925,"text":"但是金字獎比較特殊金字獎不能說做到哪裡付到哪裡它就是整個案而且牽涉到那麼多廠商要報名所以是要很明確說今年有這個錢要辦我們辦這個金字獎不能說要等到大院同意了之後"},{"start":608.305,"end":635.454,"text":"我們再來複習 廠商為什麼要爭取金職獎 爭取到對他們有什麼好處 因為它是一個品質的指標嘛 保證 那也是他們廠商的榮譽啦那對他們來講 得到金職獎呢 那連續幾年之後 那麼他這個將來在承攬其他工程啦 評選的時候就會加分 保固金啊 理業等等都可以減免 對廠商來講是一個無上的榮耀好 謝謝主委喔 謝謝主席喔好 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主委那個我也是持續想問一下台積電的問題因為主委之前有提到就是因為台積電的前瞻製程通通都在製造研發都在跟流台灣所以不用貪心會掏空台灣也不會變成美積電這樣講法是多慮的當然我們希望是這樣希望是這樣但因為市場上包括很多專家學者都有提出相關疑慮譬如說"},{"start":53.522,"end":80.418,"text":"台積電的前研發處長他就提到他的分析他說台積電的先進製程落地在美國那他擔心說美國會逼台積電把技術移轉或者是把它分割成兩家公司那為什麼呢因為很可能就是到時候美國會把台積電的一些製程用在比如說國防工業上面所以美國可能會希望說直接可以"},{"start":81.358,"end":106.53,"text":"變成美國公司那我不知道主委你對於這個看法是怎樣我想台積電到美國投資主要是因應當地市場的需求我知道主委我想有些東西我們都有共識他會怎麼去一定有他的考量因應客戶在那邊或者是他可能因應未來可能關稅會提高他做出最理性的選擇但我們現在其實擔心的不是"},{"start":107.47,"end":133.388,"text":"他美國怎麼樣我們現在思考的是那台積電他到了美國之後對於台灣產業跟國安的影響我是說從這個角度那因為主委之前的言論都比較樂觀然後就覺得說台積電到美國好像不會怎麼樣跟對台灣不會有太大的影響那我現在只是說這樣的評估是過於樂觀嗎還是說您是真的有經過相關的分析才得到這樣的結論"},{"start":134.937,"end":161.054,"text":"委員剛剛提到有一點我們倒是沒有明確的去談這個議題就是說台積電在美國設的廠會不會有些產品它在台灣是不會做的那可能會有因為包含美國自己國防機密的一些晶片它可能不希望是台積電在台灣的廠做要在美國的廠做類似這種東西是合理的是有可能的那這一點當然我們也不會在這種"},{"start":163.035,"end":186.319,"text":"可能發展的狀況之下台灣也不會去擔心這個事為什麼因為它不是我們的敵對國家那在台灣我們也可能會有自己我們國防需求的經驗也是在我們台灣的產作我們也不希望它在外國的產作你看台積電前研發處長就說他其實擔心美國會把台積電要求技術轉移或分割兩個公司就變美積電這個是那個處長講的"},{"start":189.62,"end":217.797,"text":"技術轉移的部分我剛剛其實跟其他委員也有提到技術分兩部分一部分就是公開的像專利那些東西那大家都可以去學可以去做但是那個是需要授權因為是商業的行為他如果願意授權給別人我跟你講主任因為這個越講越細其實我只是說好像感覺上您非常樂觀但是在業界或市場上面大家其實有很多不同的看法"},{"start":218.237,"end":234.793,"text":"我樂觀的原因是因為我們台灣不能夠自詡說台灣的這個科技研發是全世界領先的絕對不是我們在半導體領域其實還有很多希望跟全世界各國先進國家來學習的合作那好那這樣我再問再具體一點那你覺得台積電到美國去投資對台灣的產業會有什麼影響嗎"},{"start":239.637,"end":256.527,"text":"對台灣產業是好的啊是好的是好的就是說因為半導體的市場是在增加在增加當中所以光靠台灣作為製造基地是不夠的那主委請問一下因為那個亞利桑那州州長馬上就要來台灣了嘛這是你知道嘛"},{"start":257.808,"end":273.104,"text":"那也有傳出說他是不是也會來拜訪一些台積電的供應商然後會希望他們到美國投資然後在亞利桑那州可能成立一個半導體的聚落那這個部分國科會有掌握嗎"},{"start":274.665,"end":295.797,"text":"這部分我們還沒有接到相關的訊息但是台灣的這個台積電它本身台灣這個供應鏈會不會到美國去當然也取決於說他們去到底是會賺錢還是會虧本那當地的政府能夠提供什麼樣的誘因那在包含關稅的這個影響還有那個當地的這個市場的這個拉力等等這個都影響到"},{"start":302,"end":327.135,"text":"所以我們其實大家會單線點在這邊嘛所以說剛剛台積電去之後供應鏈的整個移過去在那邊成立一個科技聚落之後那台灣這邊的投資會不會因為這樣子受到排擠嘛然後第二個就影響到就業的機會啊都不會 主委絕對都不會謝謝委員因為台積電在台灣還在擴敞當中那在台灣的而且他也幫台灣的這個供應鏈"},{"start":329.336,"end":356.454,"text":"國科也在協助我們的科學園區也在幫台積電在台灣供應鏈的整合我們也在協助所以它供應鏈的投資在台灣也會增加至於我們的廠商是不是有機會變成國際級的公司也可以利用台積電在國外的投資它也可以擴大在當地招募人才在當地建立它的製造基地也會變成國際的公司我們期待是這樣的發展"},{"start":357.495,"end":384.334,"text":"那這樣子的話我們也希望美國政府也要協助他不管是聯邦政府還是州政府當地的這個政府如果他們有足夠誘因廠商我們是政府不會去逼他嘛那一定是有誘因他才會你的意思是說因為台積電在台灣還有持續在擴廠所以不會有產業外移的狀況那請問一下因為上一次魏哲嘉在總統府開記者會的時候他有提到希望政府幫他解決用地跟用電的問題"},{"start":386.175,"end":398.44,"text":"那之前更有提到就是說台積電未來希望在台灣一年設一個新的廠然後在各縣市那國會的掌握是怎麼樣現在用電跟用地都沒問題嗎針對協助台積電設廠的部分"},{"start":401.314,"end":429.22,"text":"我當然不能講沒問題因為還有很多困難要克服有哪些困難要克服當然土地的取得現在台灣土地很寶貴土地我們規劃要取得都要經過我們正常的程序要做環境影響評估你現在是要協助他在哪裡取得用地遇到困難那個我還不能透露不能透露不能透露因為這個規劃的過程當中那會不會有可能因為那個用地取得不了影響到他的社長"},{"start":430.34,"end":454.951,"text":"有可能所以之前承諾說以後會在台灣增加生產線一年設一場可能沒有辦法做到他的前提就是說我們政府可以協助他解決所有的用地、水電這些問題所以現在最主要是土地的問題那電的問題呢土地、電、水都需要解決還有我們生態的保育不能夠被破壞生態保育的問題"},{"start":456.912,"end":481.389,"text":"對 這個生態保育就牽涉到環境影響評估這些事情對 那主委 那按照你這樣講嘛就是說因為現在我們也不確定說能不能解決土地 水 電的問題有可能它沒有辦法設廠那沒有辦法設廠 那這個聚落外移到美國的可能性就很高因為你的前提 你說不會掏空台灣的前提是建立在台積電未來可以很順利的設廠嘛所以就有很多的不確定性"},{"start":482.503,"end":488.453,"text":"對啊那他到國外市場也有很多不確定的但是因為像亞利桑那州他們那邊用電沒問題嘛"},{"start":491.667,"end":511.033,"text":"他那邊也需要當地政府要協助他所以他的問題可能比我們還…當地政府就有協助他而且還施加…還有壓力嘛所以他有去嘛那我們現在台灣是希望他留在這邊所以要幫他解決問題但是限於環境嘛土地啊 電啊 這些是 但是…但是台灣的政府"},{"start":513.093,"end":534.078,"text":"過去的這個時機我們協助台積電台灣政府效率是遠比國外的政府效率還要高但是因為有時候就是土地 台灣土地的問題 電的問題我絕對是肯定國科會積極協助台積電我是說是物理環境的限制接下來我想跟主委請教一下"},{"start":534.978,"end":547.476,"text":"因為這個是3月13號美國一個外交事務的一個期刊它是一個喬治城大學的教授跟一個美國戰略暨國際研究中心共同發表的裡面提到就是說"},{"start":548.766,"end":569.524,"text":"怎麼樣強化台灣跟美國 就是說他是說美國必須要協助台灣因應中國的灰色地帶戰術啦其中提到台灣應該要發展自己的低軌衛星通訊環境那當然他是寫給可能美國政府的建議啦就是說希望美國來協助那我其實我們台灣自己也有發展嘛就在國客會底下"},{"start":570.205,"end":597.976,"text":"就是太空中心可是這個太空中心這個國家發射場址現在進度就有落後我們先看舊的計畫因為新的計畫還沒揭露我們先看舊的計畫舊的計畫是113年是去年應該要完成應該要選定國家發射場址的位置但就我了解好像還沒選定現在兩個地方在挑我們這個月底會確定這個月底會確定現在是說屏東跟台東挑一個是不是是那有沒有確定要挑哪個 還沒"},{"start":598.616,"end":623.785,"text":"還沒有 這要經過審議會經過審議會那現在國會會有比較傾向哪裡嗎我們審議會會才能公佈我勉強主委揭露啦但是因為現在看起來就是會延後嘛那好像我今年一月的時候是不是有提一個修正案出去有訂定一個新的新的完成國家發射長子建制計畫是不是本來是訂119年啦"},{"start":625.663,"end":643.528,"text":"那新的計畫,新的大概是還是一樣我們時程一樣還是一樣119年完成目前時程一樣還是一樣那你1月份遞出的修正案的內容如果沒有改時程的話只有本來是去年年底可是因為經過當地的這個溝通"},{"start":647.229,"end":670.229,"text":"因為要跟兩個村 就是南田村跟屏東的九盆村要跟居民溝通等等 那個花了一些時間還有很多意見 他們提出來的意見收集完以後我們的委員還要到現場去訪視 所以拖了一點時間但是我們已經確定這個月底 省議會會開會會通過然後119年就會完成國家發射場建制"},{"start":674.272,"end":693.152,"text":"而且會執行兩次陸軌火箭發射活動確定如果預算確定的話預算確定的話就會確定最後很簡單問一個問題因為那個川普啊他有砍了一些研究機構的預算嘛所以這你知道嗎你有在關注這件事嗎我知道那個"},{"start":696.331,"end":714.62,"text":"那譬如說像他有篩檢的美國國家衛生院給一些美國大學研究經費那有一些學校已經開始凍結教職員的人士招聘了那剛好我覺得這個機會啦這個國科會因為也都有計畫嘛在招攬外國籍的科技人才我不知道國科會有沒有針對"},{"start":716.95,"end":736.718,"text":"針對就是美國的這些變化你沒有看準的這個機會要把一些美國優秀人才把他招募到台灣來委員 這個建議很好我會鼓勵我們所有的學研機構利用這個機會好好去邀請好的人才 國際人才到台灣來這是很好的建議OK 好 謝謝謝謝葉元之委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":491,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時23分）麻煩請國科會主委，謝謝。"],["主席：請國科會主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。主委，我也是持續想問一下台積電的問題，主委之前有提到，因為台積電前瞻製程的製造、研發通通都根留臺灣，所以不用擔心會掏空臺灣，也不會變成美積電，這樣的講法是多慮了，當然我們希望是這樣，但市場上包括很多專家學者都有提出相關的疑慮。譬如說台積電的前研發處長就提到他的分析，他說台積電的先進製程落地在美國，他擔心美國會逼台積電把技術移轉或者是把它分割成兩家公司，為什麼呢？因為很可能到時候美國會把台積電的一些製程用在比如國防工業上面，所以美國可能會希望直接可以變成美國公司，我不知道主委對於這個看法是怎樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我想台積電到美國投資主要是因應當地市場的需求。"],["葉委員元之：這我知道。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為它大部分……"],["葉委員元之：主委，有些東西我們都有共識，它為什麼去一定有它的考量，因應客戶在那邊或者是因應未來可能關稅會提高，它做出最理性的選擇。我們現在其實擔心的不是美國怎麼樣，我們現在思考的是台積電到了美國之後，對於臺灣產業跟國安的影響，我是說從這個角度。主委之前的言論都比較樂觀，覺得台積電到美國好像不會怎麼樣，對臺灣不會有太大的影響，我現在只是說這樣的評估是過於樂觀嗎？還是說您是真的經過相關的分析才得到這樣的結論？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員剛剛提到，有一點我們倒是沒有明確去談這個議題，就是台積電在美國設的廠會不會有些產品在臺灣是不會做的，可能會有，因為包含美國自己一些國防機密的晶片，它可能不希望台積電在臺灣的廠做，要在美國的廠做。"],["葉委員元之：對啊！"],["吳主任委員誠文：類似這種東西是合理的、是有可能的，這一點當然我們在這種可能發展的狀況之下，臺灣也不會去擔心這個事，為什麼？因為它不是我們的敵對國家，在臺灣，我們也可能會有自己國防需求的晶片，也是在我們臺灣的廠做，我們也不希望它在國外的廠做。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，現在只是說，你看台積電前研發處長就說，他其實擔心美國會要求台積電技術轉移或分割兩個公司，就變成美積電，這是那個處長講的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：技術轉移的部分，我剛剛其實跟其他的委員也有提到，技術分兩部分，一部分就是公開的，像專利那些東西，大家都可以去學、可以去做，但是那個需要授權，因為是商業的行為，它如果願意授權給別人……"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，主委，這個越講越細啦，其實我只是說，好像感覺上您非常樂觀，但是在業界或市場上面，大家其實有很多不同的看法。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我樂觀的原因是因為我們臺灣不能夠自詡說臺灣的科技研發是全世界領先的，絕對不是，我們在半導體領域其實還有很多需要跟全世界各先進國家學習、合作。"],["葉委員元之：好，那這樣，我再問具體一點，你覺得台積電到美國去投資，對臺灣的產業會有什麼影響嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對臺灣產業是好的啊！"],["葉委員元之：是好的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是好的，因為半導體的市場是在增加當中，所以光靠臺灣作為製造基地是不夠的。"],["葉委員元之：主委，請問一下，因為亞利桑那州州長馬上就要來臺灣了，這個你知道嘛！甚至有傳出說他是不是也會來拜訪一些台積電的供應商，會希望他們到美國投資，在亞利桑那州可能成立一個半導體的聚落，這個部分國科會有掌握嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這部分我們還沒有接到相關的訊息，但是台積電本身的臺灣供應鏈會不會到美國去，當然也取決於他們去到底是會賺錢還是會虧本，當地的政府能夠提供什麼樣的誘因，包含關稅的影響，還有當地市場的拉力等等，這個都會影響到廠商的投資。"],["葉委員元之：對，所以其實大家會擔心的點在這邊嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，所以……"],["葉委員元之：當台積電去之後，供應鏈整個移過去，在那邊成立一個科技聚落之後，臺灣這邊的投資會不會因為這樣子受到排擠？"],["吳主任委員誠文：臺灣不會……"],["葉委員元之：第二個就是影響到就業的機會，都不會？主委覺得都不會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，因為台積電在臺灣還在擴廠當中，而且它也幫臺灣的供應鏈，國科會也在協助，我們的科學園區也幫台積電在臺灣供應鏈的整合，所以它對於供應鏈的投資在臺灣也會增加，至於我們的廠商是不是有機會變成國際級的公司，也可以利用台積電在國外的投資，擴大在當地招募人才，並建立它的製造基地，也會變成國際的公司，我們期待是這樣的發展，這樣子的話，我們希望美國政府也要協助它，不管是聯邦政府還是州政府，當地的政府如果有足夠誘因，我們政府不會去逼廠商，一定是有誘因它才會去。"],["葉委員元之：主委，你剛剛的意思是說，因為台積電在臺灣還有持續再擴廠，所以不會有產業外移的狀況？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葉委員元之：請問一下，上一次魏哲家在總統府開記者會的時候，他有提到希望政府幫他解決用地和用電的問題。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葉委員元之：之前更有提到台積電未來希望在臺灣一年設一個新的廠，然後在各縣市，國科會的掌握是怎麼樣？現在用電和用地都沒問題嗎？針對協助台積電設廠的部分。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我當然不能講沒問題，因為還有很多困難要克服。"],["葉委員元之：有哪些困難要克服？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然，土地的取得，現在臺灣土地很寶貴。"],["葉委員元之：對。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們規劃取得土地都要經過正常的程序，要做環境影響評估……"],["葉委員元之：你現在是要協助它在哪裡取得用地遇到困難？"],["吳主任委員誠文：那個我還不能透露。"],["葉委員元之：不能透露？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不能透露，因為這個規劃的過程當中……"],["葉委員元之：會不會有可能因為那個用地取得不了，影響到它的設廠？"],["吳主任委員誠文：當然有可能。"],["葉委員元之：所以之前承諾說以後會在臺灣增加生產線，一年設一廠，可能沒有辦法做到？"],["吳主任委員誠文：它的前提是我們政府可以協助它解決所有的用地、水、電這些問題，所以政府要很努力。"],["葉委員元之：所以現在最主要是土地的問題，那電的問題呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：土地、電、水都需要解決……"],["葉委員元之：都有問題是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，還有我們生態的保育不能夠被破壞，生態保育的問題……"],["葉委員元之：環評……"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，生態保育就牽涉到環境影響評估這件事情。"],["葉委員元之：主委，按照你這樣講，因為現在我們也不確定能不能解決土地、水、電的問題，有可能它沒有辦法設廠，如果沒有辦法設廠，這個聚落外移到美國的可能性就很高，因為你說不會掏空臺灣的前提是建立在台積電未來可以很順利的設廠，所以就有很多的不確定性，對嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對啊！但它到國外設廠也有很多不確定性。"],["葉委員元之：像亞利桑那州它們那邊用電沒問題嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：那邊也需要當地政府協助它，所以它的問題可能比我們還大。"],["葉委員元之：當地政府就有協助它，而且還有施加壓力，所以它有去嘛！現在臺灣是希望它留在這邊，所以要幫它解決問題，但是限於環境、土地、電這些條件嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，但是臺灣的政府在過去的時機協助台積電，臺灣的政府效率是遠比國外的政府效率還要高哦！"],["葉委員元之：OK，但是有時候就是因為臺灣土地的問題、電的問題，我絕對肯定國科會積極協助台積電，我是說物理環境的限制。","接下來我想跟主委請教一下，在3月13號的美國外交事務期刊當中，有一位喬治城大學的教授跟一位美國戰略暨國際研究中心的教授共同發表專文，裡面提到怎麼樣強化臺灣跟美國……它是說美國必須要協助臺灣因應中國的灰色地帶戰術，其中提到臺灣應該要發展自己的低軌衛星通訊環境，當然它可能是寫給美國政府的建議，就是希望美國來協助。其實臺灣自己也有發展，就在國科會底下設立太空中心，可是太空中心的國家發射場址現在進度就有落後，我們先看舊的計畫，因為新的計畫還沒揭露，我們先看舊的計畫。舊的計畫是去年（113年）應該要選定國家發射場址的位置，但就我了解好像還沒選定，現在兩個地方在挑嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們這個月底會確定。"],["葉委員元之：這個月底會確定？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葉委員元之：現在是屏東跟臺東挑一個是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葉委員元之：有沒有確定要挑哪一個？還沒？"],["吳主任委員誠文：還沒有，這要經過審議會。"],["葉委員元之：經過審議會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，要經過審議會。"],["葉委員元之：現在國科會有比較傾向哪裡嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們審議會會……"],["葉委員元之：才能公布？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我不能事先……"],["葉委員元之：我不勉強主委揭露，但是因為現在看起來就是會延後，今年1月的時候是不是好像有提一個修正案出去，有訂定一個新的完成國家發射場址建置計畫是不是？本來是訂119年，新的計畫大概是……"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們時程一樣。"],["葉委員元之：還是一樣119年會完成？"],["吳主任委員誠文：目前時程一樣。"],["葉委員元之：還是一樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對。"],["葉委員元之：那你1月分遞出修正案的內容如果沒有改時程的話……"],["吳主任委員誠文：本來是去年年底，可是因為經過與當地兩個村的溝通，就是南田村跟屏東九棚村，要跟居民溝通等等，那個花了一些時間，還有很多他們提出來的意見蒐集完以後，我們的委員還要到現場去訪視，所以拖了一點時間，但是我們已經確定這個月底審議會會開會決定。"],["葉委員元之：然後119年就會完成國家發射場建置，而且會執行兩次入軌火箭發射活動，確定嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果預算確定的話……"],["葉委員元之：預算確定的話就會確定是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["葉委員元之：最後很簡單問一個問題，川普他有砍了一些研究機構的預算，主委，你知道嗎？你有在關注這件事嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我知道。"],["葉委員元之：譬如他有削減美國國家衛生院給一些美國大學的研究經費，有一些學校已經開始凍結教職員的人事招聘了。剛好我覺得可以藉這個機會，因為國科會也都有計畫在招攬外國籍科技人才，我不知道國科會有沒有針對美國的這些變化，你們有沒有看準這個機會，要把一些美國的優秀人才招募到臺灣來？"],["吳主任委員誠文：委員這個建議很好，我會鼓勵我們所有的學研機構，利用這個機會好好去邀請好的國際人才到臺灣來，這是很好的建議。"],["葉委員元之：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員的質詢，主委請回座，謝謝。","接著我們繼續進行質詢，請郭昱晴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1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麻煩請委員長馬偉你好委員長好委員長因為剛剛有聽到我們在詢答的過程那委員長有特別提到說在某一些國家他可能是單一國籍的部分那像剛剛面臨的那樣的困難有哪一些國家請喬爾惠再提供給本席好不好好"},{"start":30.39,"end":32.892,"text":"另外我們先討論今天我們在報告裡面看到的就是我們有特別提到中國大陸在運用春節活動去展開一些文化統戰的這樣的一個作為"},{"start":44.926,"end":50.209,"text":"那他會送一些小物啊或者運用人情牌去拜會我們的僑社這個也影響到了我們海外僑民對我們的向心力那既然僑委會已經發現到對岸是利用節慶對華僑實施這樣的文化滲透的統戰"},{"start":62.577,"end":66.24,"text":"那來籠絡我們的僑民的心那這個部分請問僑委會在傳統節慶比如說像今年我們在春節的時候我們在不同的區域有做了哪些活動辦了什麼樣的或做什麼來增進僑界跟僑社團體對台灣的鏈結可不可以舉幾個例子"},{"start":85.798,"end":103.497,"text":"跟委員報告通常在農曆年節的時候他們都會有一些叫做新春的餐敘或者是新春團拜的活動那一般來講只要他有跟我們申請要辦這些活動我們多少都會給你所以我們沒有主動辦任何的活動或做什麼事"},{"start":106.3,"end":113.125,"text":"有一些是僑團我們都是因應僑團才來做這些動作那因為每一個僑團如果我們主動辦的時候不見得僑團大家會一起來參加所以我們都是尊重個別僑團在舉辦但是如果非農曆春節而是元旦這種我們就會統一辦升旗活動所以春節我們辦了什麼?春節我們沒有主動辦春節都是配合因為大家時間會不一致"},{"start":133.399,"end":135.542,"text":"委員長我剛剛已經提到就是我們自己僑委會其實也發現到了就是說它對岸的做法我們是提供聽我講完它似乎是有達到那個效果"},{"start":148.319,"end":151.961,"text":"我們也知道他送東西然後可能去拜會然後發個紅包那可能我們是做不到嗎或者像這樣他們就有效那為什麼我們不做因為有很多華僑也反映說我們在辦這些活動的時候有時候那種儀式性"},{"start":165.948,"end":171.433,"text":"還有它的重複性太高就大家都一樣所以一點興趣都沒有那所以也引不起大家參與的這樣的一個興趣所以如果說他們的做法是有效的而我們卻沒有其他的個別或者我們一個突破性的做法那只會讓我們的人一直流失所以這個部分我想僑委會可以主動去做一些事情"},{"start":189.147,"end":199.376,"text":"因為既然你都已經發現對岸的做法是有效的那我們怎麼可以讓我們的人一直流失或者一直被拉攏就這個部分我覺得沒有什麼被動或主動或是配合或者只是補助主要是傳統橋社剛剛講那個拉攏都是傳統橋社為主那部分的是說他們辦的春節活動想要邀我們台橋社團但基本上我們台橋社團都沒有去參加"},{"start":216.051,"end":221.958,"text":"那他們也都會回報給我們所以這是兩個不同的僑團性質我剛剛已經講很清楚過去例行性的我們那個無所謂可是當你已經發現委員我們沒有辦法有那麼多預算去跟他做某種的加碼我當然是用其他的方式來繼續的"},{"start":234.392,"end":237.515,"text":"我們以前您大概也是有選舉過我們當然在看資源或各方面的條件的時候我們不見得都是資源最充裕的一方可是要怎麼樣讓大家認同或者怎麼樣去拉攏這是我們要去做的今天不是錢多少的問題那裡永遠都輸他"},{"start":256.069,"end":260.793,"text":"所以不要拿這個理由來說我們這個不能做那個不能做我剛剛已經提到了如果因為他送那個小物看起來你也大概7萬份而已那你去拜會也不需要花什麼錢那如果這個有效為什麼我們不能做這根錢我們也有去拜會我們都會送一個禮物過去那如果這樣我們還輸人家那你必須要檢討說為什麼他容易被拉攏或者他是什麼樣的因素"},{"start":284.451,"end":288.897,"text":"這個我們自己去檢討再去改善嘛 好不好那另外 僑委會在接受媒體採訪的時候有提到中方是採取打著綠席反綠這個部分好像是我們委員長對媒體也說到中國過去對於就是近期的發展 對"},{"start":301.834,"end":304.795,"text":"中國過去對於親中偏藍的這些僑社僑團其實他們會刻意拉攏那現在好像是這個比較失去寵愛了可是我想要關心的是僑委會如何去區分他到底是親中可能比較明顯那個很容易就可以看得出來那你偏藍偏綠因為偏藍偏綠對於我們補助因為有我程度"},{"start":329.684,"end":332.067,"text":"對於我們的協會會的補助是有差別的那你偏藍偏綠是怎麼去分補助沒有差別但是呢有我程度嘛應該這樣講你在補助的時候我們有列一個有我有我的那種程度是有的"},{"start":345.138,"end":356.064,"text":"我們有一個公式在計算所以我們是怎麼區分的怎麼區分他是偏藍偏綠我們是以他舉辦活動的內容我現在不講補助委員長我不講補助我說我們因為有講到偏藍偏綠比方說我來講一個概念就是國民黨貴黨都還有很多海外的黨部"},{"start":369.592,"end":379.339,"text":"那這些黨部也都有成立一些社團所以這些就非常清楚它叫做偏藍嘛那有沒有什麼比較偏綠的偏綠的當然也有就比方說FAPA大家知道的公共人事務協會這叫台派嘛所以是由民進黨去組成的不是它不是不不不FAPA比民進黨更早他們是在美國登記的僑團跟民進黨也沒有關係那像同鄉會已經50年了比我們民進黨更早我們民進黨來講是幾歲"},{"start":399.053,"end":401.214,"text":"因為過去僑胞在對於我們尤其像抗日期間其實他不管捐錢捐住設立學校捐飛機捐很多很多的資源所以我現在要講的是如果你今天僑委會都已經先分了藍分了綠那你在內部已經做出這樣的一個差別的一個判定"},{"start":428.746,"end":434.231,"text":"那你認為其他的他們應該要怎麼做因為社團就社團 比如說獅子會裡面會有藍有綠啊那你久了以後其實你還可以去拉他們然後你可以讓他們有一個共同的終止目標是什麼所以我現在要特別提醒的是你在內部已經做了藍綠的分別"},{"start":452.828,"end":457.109,"text":"沒有我是做事實陳述我沒有做分別陳述是你說的那你既然是已經做這樣的陳述就是說這個都是傳統的分別出來了你已經把它分別出來了那以前它既然是偏藍或偏綠有很多為什麼它要拉攏甚至你說對岸已經在拉攏比較輕綠的了"},{"start":472.654,"end":475.157,"text":"所以其實如果在內部我剛剛聽說講完我們現在擔心的部分如果你在內部先分了敵我或者先分了藍綠或者先做一個區隔有時候我們要讓他們團結"},{"start":488.59,"end":493.874,"text":"會更困難尤其僑委會更不應該這樣做他從過去因為過去的年代他是什麼樣的一個政治背景比如說那時候就是只有國民黨在執政所以那時候的成立或者更早的時候他們為台灣在付出的時候他們也沒有分哪一個政黨就是說他回到台灣的時候他還是希望我們的教育資源不足我們就提供教育資源各方面我們會提供那你應該如果僑委會的一個"},{"start":518.391,"end":523.695,"text":"重要的一個存在的價值它就是讓我們所有的可能跟我們有鏈結的這樣子的一個僑胞、僑民、僑社它都可以對我們認同這在國際上是很重要的所以就這個部分我們還是希望邱委會其實自己把分寸可以拿捏得更好"},{"start":543.168,"end":562.766,"text":"我簡單回應一下事實上這兩三年我在海外辦各種僑務座談的時候藍的也有綠的也有我所謂藍的也有綠的也有是代表說台灣是一個多元政黨民主社會所以我常常跟所有的僑民說你支持哪一個政黨都沒有關係我們只有一個共同的信念就是我們是"},{"start":563.647,"end":569.653,"text":"支持中華民國台灣這個概念所以同樣的這樣子我對僑團也是持同樣的態度我不會因為他的政治立場是什麼而去給他差別待遇但是我必須說中共是會區分的做法是這個我們觀察到的現象所以觀察到現象我們要自己去想我們策略上要怎麼因應而已"},{"start":585.407,"end":589.513,"text":"但是在立場上我並沒有說今天他是政黨立場不一樣我就差別待遇那第二個就是說我要跟委員報告他們都是在海外的僑團那麼這些僑團我們都是輔助他而已我們沒有主導他們的委員長您說的我知道"},{"start":601.089,"end":603.15,"text":"這對我們台灣來說 我們要團結最多的力量嘛我要講的是 當你要補助社團的時候你把那個補助的公式的內容再提供給門市"},{"start":621.321,"end":624.524,"text":"另外因為今天時間的關係我們沒有辦法問到因為天下雜誌有做了一個專章在討論我們的學生不管是教育部還是我們僑委會主辦的這樣子的部分它的標題其實讓人家看了非常難過"},{"start":641.457,"end":644.298,"text":"他說想做工就去台灣念書產學專班讓台灣淪為偽留學天堂這個基本上是一個偽專天中介剝削僑生的產業鏈"},{"start":652.196,"end":656.578,"text":"委員長你不用先否認 也不用去 因為其實你的計算方式也是錯的就像我們在說那個國防部好了 他們在委員他們把我們沒有講的話寫出來 這些事情是塞在我們的嘴巴裡面我一定會抗議的 而且我已經去函跟他們講"},{"start":676.247,"end":678.85,"text":"因為這個雜誌已經出現了已經讓大家看到了如果要說明我們未來會有時間我現在要特別先提出來我們自己去理解的也有這樣的狀況你去了解看看我們對這些學生是不是夠好因為過去我們有很多的透過"},{"start":694.384,"end":701.205,"text":"教育部或者我們僑委會不管海青班也好或者過去的僑生也好我們訓練了非常多的優秀的人才而且在台灣創立了非常成功的企業因為那個就叫培養人才剛剛你們計算的公式你說七成然後天下雜誌說三成我們姑且不論他的那個分母分子的計算資料就像國防部我剛剛提到的如果你救你的木兵他達到百分之一百以上"},{"start":724.17,"end":730.331,"text":"可是他的就是他後來離開的更高所以我們的邊線比一直嚴重不足或者其他的人員不足是因為這樣你不能說他來註冊了可是他流失了你沒有去計算今天時間的關係這個問題是我們僑委會花了很多的錢編了更多的預算尤其這兩年我們希望他做到的是讓國際認同不要讓人家覺得我們是剝削"},{"start":752.156,"end":755.418,"text":"如果來了都是幫我們台灣的廠商解決他們的缺工問題或者幫學校快要倒了讓他有學生數這都是不對的我們希望有時間如果再安排我們會深入討論我認同委員的理念基本上我也是這樣的看法好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":714,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（11時12分）謝謝主席，麻煩請委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：馬委員你好。"],["馬委員文君：委員長好。剛剛聽到在詢答的過程，委員長特別提到，在某一些國家他可能是單一國籍的部分，像剛剛提到面臨那樣困難的有哪一些國家，請僑委會再提供給本席，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["馬委員文君：另外，我們先討論今天我們在報告裡面看到，你特別提到中國大陸有運用春節活動展開一些文化統戰的作為，他會送一些小物或者運用人情牌去拜會我們的僑社，這也影響到海外僑民對我們的向心力。既然僑委會已經發現對岸利用節慶對華僑實施文化滲透的統戰，攏絡我們僑民的心，那麼這個部分請問僑委會在傳統節慶，比如像今年春節我們在不同的區域做了哪些活動、辦了什麼樣的活動或做了什麼，以增進僑界和僑社團體對臺灣的鏈結？可不可以舉幾個例子？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，通常在農曆年節的時候，他們也都會有一些叫做新春餐敘或者是新春團拜的活動，一般來講，只要他有跟我們申請要辦這些活動，我們多少都會給予……"],["馬委員文君：所以我們沒有主動辦任何的活動或做什麼事？"],["徐委員長佳青：有一些是僑團，我們都是因應僑團才做這些動作，因為每一個僑團，如果我們主動辦的時候，不見得僑團大家會一起來參加，所以我們都是尊重個別僑團舉辦；但如果非農曆春節而是元旦，這種我們就會統一辦與升旗活動相關的。"],["馬委員文君：所以春節我們辦了什麼？因為他們春節都會辦。"],["徐委員長佳青：春節我們沒有主動辦，春節都是配合，因為大家時間會不一致。"],["馬委員文君：委員長，我剛剛已經提到，就是我們自己僑委會其實也發現到了，對岸的作法……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我們是提供……"],["馬委員文君：聽我講完。他似乎有達到那個效果，我們也知道他送東西、可能去拜會，然後發個紅包，那我們做不到嗎？或者他們這樣做就有效，那為什麼我們不做？因為有很多華僑也反映我們在辦這些活動的時候，有時候那種儀式性還有重複性太高，就是大家都一樣，所以一點興趣都沒有，也引不起大家參與的興趣。如果他們的作法是有效的，而我們卻沒有其他個別或者突破性的作法，只會讓我們的人一直流失。這個部分我想僑委會可以主動去做一些事情，既然你都已經發現對岸的作法是有效的，怎麼可以讓我們的人一直流失或者被拉攏？就這個部分，有沒有什麼被動或主動還是配合的作法？或者只是補助？"],["徐委員長佳青：是，主要是傳統僑社，剛剛講那個拉攏都是以傳統僑社為主，部分是他們辦的春節活動想要邀我們臺僑社團，但基本上我們臺僑社團都沒有去參加，他們也都會回報給我們，所以這是兩個不同的僑團性質。"],["馬委員文君：委員長，我剛剛已經講得很清楚……"],["徐委員長佳青：那我們有給……"],["馬委員文君：過去例行性的那個無所謂，可是當你已經發現……拉攏……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我們沒辦法有那麼多預算去跟他做某種加碼，我當然是用其他的方式繼續穩固。"],["馬委員文君：委員長，以前您大概也有選舉過嘛！當然在看資源或各方面條件的時候，我們不見得都是資源最充裕的一方。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["馬委員文君：可是要怎麼樣讓大家認同或者怎麼樣拉攏，這是我們要去做的，今天不是錢多少的問題，那你永遠都輸他。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["馬委員文君：所以不要拿這個理由來說我們這個不能做、那個不能做。我剛剛已經提到，因為他送的那個小物看起來也大概7萬份而已，你去拜會也不需要花什麼錢，如果這個有效，為什麼我們不能做？這跟錢沒有關係。"],["徐委員長佳青：有，我們也有去拜會，我們都會送一個禮物過去。"],["馬委員文君：如果這樣我們還輸人家，那你必須要檢討為什麼他容易被拉攏或者是什麼樣的因素，這個我們自己檢討再去改善，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["馬委員文君：另外，僑委會在接受媒體採訪時提到，中方是採取打著綠旗反綠旗的方法，這個部分好像委員長對媒體也說，中國過去對於……"],["徐委員長佳青：這是近期的發展。"],["馬委員文君：中國過去對於親中偏藍的這些僑社、僑團，其實他們會刻意拉攏，現在這個好像比較失去寵愛了。可是我想要關心的是，僑委會如何去區分它到底是……親中可能比較明顯，那個很容易就可以看得出來；而偏藍偏綠，因為偏藍偏綠對於我們補助上，友我程度對於僑委會的補助而言是有差別的，那你偏藍、偏綠是怎麼區分？"],["徐委員長佳青：補助沒有差別，但是……"],["馬委員文君：友我程度嘛！"],["徐委員長佳青：應該這樣講……"],["馬委員文君：你在補助的時候，我們有列一個友我的那種程度，是有的。"],["徐委員長佳青：我們有一個公式在計算，就是它的規模……"],["馬委員文君：對，所以你們是怎麼區分的？怎麼區分它是偏藍、偏綠，因為你提到……"],["徐委員長佳青：不是，我們是以它舉辦活動的內容……"],["馬委員文君：我現在不講補助，我說因為有講到偏藍、偏綠……"],["徐委員長佳青：比方我講一個概念，就是國民黨、貴黨都還有很多海外的黨部，這些黨部也都有成立一些社團，所以這些就非常清楚叫做偏藍。"],["馬委員文君：有沒有什麼比較偏綠的？"],["徐委員長佳青：偏綠的當然也有，比方FAPA，大家知道的這個公共事務協會，這叫臺派。"],["馬委員文君：所以是由民進黨組成的……"],["徐委員長佳青：不是，它不是，FAPA比民進黨更早，他們是在美國登記的僑團，跟民進黨也沒有關係；而像同鄉會已經五十年了，比我們民進黨更早，民進黨才三十幾歲。"],["馬委員文君：那僑委會因為過去……"],["徐委員長佳青：所以我們稱它為臺派社團。"],["馬委員文君：過去僑胞對於我們，尤其像抗日期間，其實它不管捐錢、捐助設立學校、捐飛機、捐很多很多的資源……"],["徐委員長佳青：是，這個都是很多華僑總會。"],["馬委員文君：所以我現在要講的是，如果今天僑委會都已經先分了藍、分了綠，你在內部已經做出這樣一個差別的判定……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我們補助並沒有在分……"],["馬委員文君：那你認為其他的他們應該要怎麼做？因為社團就是社團，比如獅子會裡面也會有藍有綠，久了以後其實你還可以去拉他們，然後你可以讓他們有一個共同的宗旨目標是什麼……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["馬委員文君：所以我現在要特別提醒，你在內部已經做了藍綠的分別，有的時候……"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有，委員，我是做事實陳述，我沒有做分別。"],["馬委員文君：沒有，陳述是你說的，你既然已經做這樣的陳述，就是說……"],["徐委員長佳青：這個都是傳統的分……"],["馬委員文君：把它分別出來了，你已經把它分別出來了。以前它既然是偏藍或偏綠，也有很多，為什麼它要拉攏？甚至你說對岸已經在拉攏比較親綠的了，所以其實如果在內部……"],["徐委員長佳青：其實與其說是對岸在幫我們……"],["馬委員文君：你聽我講完我們現在擔心的部分，如果你在內部先分了敵我或者先分了藍綠，或者先做一個區隔，有時候我們要讓他們團結會更困難，尤其僑委會更不應該這樣做。因為過去的年代是什麼樣的政治背景，比如那時候就是只有國民黨在執政，所以那時候成立或者更早的時候，他們為臺灣付出時也沒有分哪一個政黨，他回到臺灣的時候還是希望，教育資源不足我們就提供教育資源、各方面我們會提供，而僑委會重要的存在價值就是讓所有可能跟我們有鏈結的僑胞、僑民、僑社都可以對我們認同，這在國際上是很重要的。所以就這個部分，我們還是希望僑委會自己可以把分寸拿捏得更好。"],["徐委員長佳青：委員可以給我回應一下嗎？"],["馬委員文君：好。"],["徐委員長佳青：我簡單回應，事實上這兩、三年我在海外辦各種僑務座談的時候，藍的也有，綠的也有，我所謂藍的也有，綠的也有，代表臺灣是一個多元政黨的民主社會，所以我常常跟所有的僑民說，你支持哪一個政黨都沒有關係，我們只有一個共同的信念，就是我們支持中華民國臺灣這個概念，我對僑團也是持同樣的態度，我不會因他的政治立場是什麼而給他差別待遇。但我必須說，中共會區分的作法是我們觀察到的現象，所以觀察到現象，我們要自己去想策略上要怎麼因應而已，但在立場上，委員，我並沒有說今天他的政黨立場不一樣我就差別待遇。","第二個我要跟委員報告，他們都是在海外的僑團，這些僑團我們都是輔助他而已，我們沒有主導他們的……"],["馬委員文君：你說的我知道，我就說這對臺灣來說，我們都……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們要團結最多的力量。"],["馬委員文君：我要講的是，當你要補助社團的時候，你不會……"],["徐委員長佳青：不會，我們沒有……"],["馬委員文君：你的公式……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們不會用立場……"],["馬委員文君：你聽我講完，主席站起來了，你把那個補助公式的內容再提供給本席。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。"],["馬委員文君：另外因為今天時間的關係，我們沒有辦法問到，天下雜誌做了一個專章在討論我們的學生，不管是教育部還是僑委會主辦的部分，他的標題其實讓人家看了非常難過，他說想做工就去臺灣念書，產學專班讓臺灣淪為偽留學天堂……"],["徐委員長佳青：這個基本上是個偽專題。"],["馬委員文君：仲介剝削僑生的產業鏈。委員長不用先否認，也不用去……"],["徐委員長佳青：事實上裡面的資料錯誤百出。"],["馬委員文君：其實你的計算方式也是錯的，就像我們在說國防部好了，他們在……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，他們把我們沒有講的話寫出來，這些事情塞在我們的嘴巴裡面，我一定會抗議的。"],["馬委員文君：聽我講完。"],["徐委員長佳青：而且我已經去函跟他們講了。"],["馬委員文君：委員長聽我講完！因為這個雜誌已經出現了、已經讓大家看到了，如果要說明我們未來會有時間，我現在要特別先提出來，我們自己理解的也有這樣的狀況，你去了解看看我們對這些學生是不是夠好，因為過去我們有很多透過教育部或者僑委會，不管海青班也好，或者過去的僑生也好，我們訓練了非常多優秀的人才，而且在臺灣創立了非常成功的企業，那個就叫培養人才。剛剛你們計算的公式，你說七成，然後天下雜誌說三成，我們姑且不論它的分母、分子的計算資料，就像國防部，我剛剛提到，如果就募兵，達到百分之百以上耶！可是後來離開的更高，所以我們的編現比一直嚴重不足或者其他的人員不足是因為這樣，你不能說他來註冊了，可是後來流失的部分你沒有計算。這個問題僑委會花了很多錢、編了更多的預算，尤其這兩年，我們希望做到的是讓國際認同，不要讓人家覺得我們是剝削，如果來了都是幫我們臺灣廠商解決他們的缺工問題，或者幫快要倒的學校有學生數，這都是不對的。我們希望有時間，如果再安排我們可以深入討論。"],["徐委員長佳青：好。我認同委員的理念，基本上我也是這樣的看法。謝謝。"],["馬委員文君：希望我們把它做好。"],["徐委員長佳青：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員，謝謝委員長。","已登記質詢委員除不在場者外均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日委員會口頭質詢未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，請相關單位以書面提供，就看跟各委員的約定。","本日會議到此結束，散會。","散會（11時26分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-3","speakers":["沈伯洋","徐巧芯","羅美玲","陳俊宇","王定宇","黃仁","林楚茵","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林憶君","張啓楷","黃國昌","馬文君"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00013"}}},{"id":"159234","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159234","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb7dd2d6458f65e7a0a4d8ee7d728f0553eba1aea0cf818e9121b00f39ec1a9b485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"11:10:36 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謝謝主席有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢 謝謝李委員好好 主委我們都都是過去在學校裡面服務的人員那就是這是第一次的這個質詢那就請大家互相保持一個良好的關係謝謝好 那今天大家可以看到在有關於"},{"start":29.454,"end":32.779,"text":"台積電的對美投資有超過1000億的這樣新增的投資這部分還是在繼續燃燒這樣的新聞那本席這邊想要關注的就是說國科會作為主管"},{"start":44.597,"end":63.663,"text":"高科技發展跟研發的跟管理的這樣的一個機關的時候呢特別想要問到是關於說在國家的核心關鍵技術跟國家安全的問題上面尤其是我們看到的是這個裡面涉及到的是有1000有三座晶圓廠是先進還有封裝測試的這個設施還有研發的這個中心也在那邊設立的那下一頁"},{"start":70.965,"end":75.826,"text":"吳淑蔚妳在3月13號的時候也特別講到說台積電我們沒有辦法去管它在台積電的機密但是它赴美的管制是政府是有依法去管理的那就想詢問的是國科會它依照什麼樣的法令來去管理台積電赴美的投資"},{"start":97.832,"end":104.283,"text":"國會並沒有管投資就是投資的部分是廠商要提出申請跟經濟部提出申請那由投審會來審議"},{"start":107.069,"end":126.756,"text":"但是我們可以看到是說在國安法這邊我們可以看到下一部分您是說沒有錯它本身是一個投資行為所以在經濟部這邊但是在高科技的這樣子的出去的這個情況之下有根據國安法的第三條第三項大家可以看到這裡面第三條第三項是說有關國家核心關鍵技術的這個部分"},{"start":132.198,"end":136.661,"text":"那這邊說如果涉及到外國不只是說包括大陸地區廣告地區等等的話呢他會有涉及到的是不只是說可能涉及到損害到國家的安全利益或是說就是產業的競爭力跟經濟發展的時候我們看到台積電在我們國家的GDP是非常大的這個情況之下絕對的而且形成到其他貴國區的話競爭力的確會受到影響那這個部分"},{"start":156.594,"end":173.64,"text":"特別看到第三條的第四項的時候說關於這個科技認定技術等等的還有認定的程序跟相關的遵行辦法是由國家科學委員會裡面會同其他單位去做商定的那在這個地方我們現在想要看的是下一頁的地方"},{"start":176.482,"end":191.314,"text":"這個網頁是從國科會的網站下來的下載的地方可以看到的是在這邊往下拉的時候可以看到第17、18項的時候可以看到的是關於18、19項可以看到奈米技術這邊"},{"start":195.15,"end":208.521,"text":"包括是封裝技術等等的這部分大家看到他的所謂技術主管機關我看到很訝異是看到是農業部農業部那這個不曉得這部分是不是有比物的情形出現那個那部分應該是經濟部啦可能是物質"},{"start":214.431,"end":233.916,"text":"好 OK 那我們繼續往下看那這個部分 下一頁我們就會看到因為這個部分從網站裡面刷下來的地方在1、2年的時候呢可以呈現出來的是說是技術主管機關是經濟部就像您剛才所說的那我就想說的是說在政府裡面是認為說"},{"start":235.683,"end":247.481,"text":"在主管的奈米技術跟封裝技術這部分的時候經濟部是比國科會還更適合的擔任技術主管機關的嗎我想請教"},{"start":250.17,"end":261.223,"text":"經濟部是目標事業的主管機關國科會是負責科研科技研發但是我們的確在國安法裡面國科會負責關鍵敏感技術關鍵科技基礎"},{"start":266.989,"end":275.495,"text":"那個叫什麼國家核心關鍵技術我們負責會診我們負責這個審議所以我們有一個審議委員會那審議委員會是各部會的代表以及我們還有民間產業界的專家來擔任這個審議委員各部會會提報我們每年會檢討一次各部會會提報提報他所主政的範圍之內"},{"start":288.945,"end":306.395,"text":"有哪些民間國家關鍵技術核心關鍵技術提報上來我們會經由我們的審議委員會來審定審定完以後我們只是列技術項目審定完以後在施政的範圍各部位依照他自己的管制項目"},{"start":306.795,"end":317.765,"text":"他會解釋在他施政範圍裡面的一些運作的細節所以包含在投資的項目裡面我們只列出這個項目名稱但是他的內容很多的這個條件將來在經濟部他會去"},{"start":321.849,"end":328.695,"text":"解釋這個管制的項目有哪些所以廠商如果在申請的時候他會依照經濟部的細節來申請所以有關半導體的項目的確是經濟部來主管"},{"start":336.943,"end":351.731,"text":"好不過我可以理解是事業主管的這部分是經濟部可是因為他是寫的技術主管機關特別想到技術所以我想說我等一下到最後的時候就提到說這部分可能還是要依據名目上面可能是比較適合的那就往下寫"},{"start":353.779,"end":366.288,"text":"我們現在更重要的是在這裡就是說您剛才也把說要去投資半導體的投資這一部分的時候就會有經過相關的跨部會尤其在跟經濟部的這邊可能是投審會這邊的相關的部分那我們看到是剛才已經有提到是美國的投資是這部分那我們再繼續往下看在這個地方因為台積電它過去的投資項目有好幾種就包括去的美國然後又去了日本然後又去了德國這部分"},{"start":380.758,"end":388.323,"text":"那因為剛才依照剛才那個技術的這個關鍵核心技術的這個清單當中是講14米以下的嘛14米以下那大家可以看到是在美國的部分呢就已經看到有432米還更先進技術省的部分要呈現出來然後日本是12那韓國也有部分也在14之下那德國呢是特別專用在車用的這個晶片當中是12米這個也有包括到12米的那我想請問一下過去的這一部分"},{"start":411.019,"end":436.121,"text":"這個審理的期間大概是多少那個程序你剛才也有說過了那他們審理會因為各個國家有這個審理的標準會一樣的嗎這三個國家都不在我們管制的範圍啊這三個國家的科技都比台灣還要進步耶但是我們的高科技是台積電到那邊去啊所以你的意思是說是設廠而已是不是那是投資的審議跟那個核心觀念技術其實是無關的"},{"start":436.94,"end":457.914,"text":"好 那可是剛才我們在往下面一再看的時候就覺得說你看說在半導體的技術上面其實這些國家都比我們強大是嗎是啊 在科技的部分美國絕對是比台灣強大但是在半導體的晶片這邊嗎在半導體全占製程的量產台積電現在是全世界第一"},{"start":458.905,"end":486.398,"text":"台積電現在是製程上面是台灣製程製造的技術製造的技術裡面有非常多是我們叫商業機密融合的部分台積電累積過去這個40年它三十幾年將近四十幾年了對不起還不到40年1987到現在累積的這些製造相關的一些商業機密"},{"start":487.799,"end":503.974,"text":"它是很難被了解的,政府也不會完全了解所以這部分是要保護的,台積電自己要保護的很好,我們政府也要求他要保護的很好這部分是不能夠外移的,也沒有辦法"},{"start":506.266,"end":523.805,"text":"可是我們再往下面看就是在這邊看到在上一頁的地方可是你剛才說的你說要求是把台積電自己要保護得很好因為這邊是屬於商業的部分那可是剛才有看到是美國的那邊也要設晶圓的也要研發中心對不對晶片的研發中心"},{"start":525.446,"end":542.845,"text":"這邊的情況之下我們就剛才看到是如果台積電在3月4號跟美國總統在開會的就在記者會的時候都已經說到了他就是要去投資了那這種情況你就把它變成說你台積電我們國科會這邊的話整體上面是可以當作說不嗎還是說你真的就是變成怎麼應對這個情況呢我可以跟委員"},{"start":545.347,"end":569.528,"text":"解釋一下,因為台積電也公開這樣的產出台積電所謂在美國投資的研發中心是基於它已經量產的技術到當地製造以後那個製造還要不斷的精進要不斷的精進,所以它同一個製程的精進版也需要有研發中心來協助它的精進"},{"start":570.709,"end":590.456,"text":"所以在不同的這個場區,它經濟的模式都會不一樣,會依照當地的這個供應鏈、設備,還有它的市場產品,會做這個那個製成節點的經濟。所以它其實每一個場,每一個場區,投資的每一個場區,都會有這樣的這個研發中心,都會有。"},{"start":591.243,"end":619.09,"text":"好 所以是因為他這邊因為您是這邊的慢導體專家所以這邊已經提到說他是在針對當地的產品上面跟當地的硝煥合作就這樣子提升這個技術的可能性好 那這邊因為時間的關係這邊我只要再繼續的再說下去的時候就是我把它放到最後面來看的時候因為這個地方我們可以看到說原來是商業機密的部分還是跟技術還是有跟各國在合作的部分這個情況"},{"start":621.09,"end":647.346,"text":"我最後想要衝到最後一頁好嗎主席跟你講說這部分還有一些這個剛才說有群聚要過去是群聚我剛才也聽到這部分但是我是想到說避免到這個半導體的避免說我們台灣有這個荷蘭病的這種出現因為資源的過度集中會把它扭曲包括其他的部分有排擠效應那我們現在先看到下一頁的情況之下看到的是說零在這個科技的"},{"start":649.887,"end":657.933,"text":"國科會的報告當中下一頁當中其實有談到在下一頁這裡在這邊看到的是說有這個太空科技進行的科技產業這部分不過這邊我們包括你說說所有的百工百業都能夠找到數位這部分的我看到是說太空科技這邊好像沒有把這個國防的部分再把它納到太空科技包括錢的這部分事實上可能可以再把它含掛在裡面包括所謂這樣"},{"start":678.867,"end":697.404,"text":"這個無人機這部分那靜寧科技這邊事實上是二零二五年二零五零年之後都是一直要進行的部分那這邊他可以使用到所謂傳統的各種的產業這個部分我想說這邊可能應該在更多的一個科技技術的部分研發經費等等要加入就是提供這樣的建議那最後這部分呢這樣您覺得"},{"start":699.426,"end":725.921,"text":"好 就是這樣子 我覺得這邊我提供這個建議啦當然我是希望說 你也把它作為一個分工廠但是我還是希望說 因為剛才講到的是技術部分的主管機關 我覺得我可謂是當之無疑啦所以這個地方如果把它放在這個清單當中說是技術部分的主管機關的時候我真的覺得還是應該抓回到這個國家關鍵核心管制技術裡面的職責然後這產業的管理的問題 希望能夠繼續的就是再注意到好 就這樣子 謝謝"},{"start":727.642,"end":727.784,"text":"好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":457,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（11時10分）謝謝主席。有請吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委備質詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：劉委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：好。主委，我們都是過去在學校裡面服務的人員，這是第一次的質詢，那就請大家互相保持一個良好的關係，謝謝。","今天大家可以看到，有關於台積電對美投資有超過1,000億這樣一個新增投資這部分還是繼續延燒的新聞，本席這邊想要關注的就是，國科會作為主管高科技發展、研發跟管理的一個機關，特別想要問到關於國家核心關鍵技術跟國家安全的問題，尤其是我們看到這裡面涉及的是三座晶圓廠，還有先進封裝測試的設施，還有研發中心要在那邊設立。我們看到吳主委在3月13日的時候，也特別講到我們沒有辦法去管台積電的機密，但是它赴美的管制，國科會、政府是有依法去管理的。那就想詢問的是，國科會是依照什麼樣的法令來去管理台積電赴美的投資？"],["吳主任委員誠文：國科會並沒有管投資，投資的部分是廠商要跟經濟部提出申請，由投審會來審議。"],["劉委員書彬：好，但是我們可以看到在國安法這邊，沒有錯，它本身是一個投資行為，所以是經濟部這邊，但是在高科技這樣子出去的情況之下，根據國安法第三條第三項，第三條第三項是所謂國家核心關鍵技術這個部分，這邊提到如果涉及外國，不只是涉及大陸地區、港澳地區等等，它可能涉及損害國家安全利益或是產業競爭力跟經濟發展的時候，我們看到台積電占我們國家的GDP是非常大的，這個情況之下，它到其他各國去的話，競爭力的確會受到影響。這個部分特別看到第三條的第四項，關於國家核心關鍵技術之認定程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法，由國家科學委員會會商有關機關定之。接下來的這個網頁是從國科會的網站下來的，下載的地方往下拉，在第十八項、十九項可以看到的是奈米技術這邊，等於是晶片，包括封裝技術等等這部分，大家看到它所謂的技術主管機關，我看到很訝異，看到是農業部。不曉得這部分是不是有筆誤的情形出現？"],["吳主任委員誠文：那一部分應該是經濟部，可能是誤植。"],["劉委員書彬：好。我們繼續往下看，下一頁我們就可以看到，因為從網站裡面抓下來的部分，在112年的時候呈現出來技術主管機關是經濟部，就像您剛才所說的。那麼我就想，在政府裡面是認為在主管奈米技術跟封裝技術這一部分，經濟部是比國科會還更適合擔任技術主管機關的嗎？我想請教。"],["吳主任委員誠文：經濟部是目的事業主管機關，國科會是負責科技研發，但是的確在國安法裡面，國科會負責國家核心關鍵技術的彙整、審議，所以我們有個審議委員會，審議委員會是各部會的代表，以及民間產業界的專家來擔任審議委員，各部會會提報，我們每年會檢討一次，各部會提報它所主政的範圍之內有哪些國家核心關鍵技術，提報上來，我們會經由審議委員會來審定，我們只是列技術項目，審定完以後，在施政的範圍，各部會依照自己的管制項目，它會去解釋在它施政範圍裡面的一些運作細節，所以包含在投資的項目裡面，我們只列出這個項目名稱，但是它的內容、很多的條件，將來經濟部會去解釋管制的項目有哪些，所以廠商如果在申請的時候，他會依照經濟部的細節來申請，所以有關半導體的這個項目，的確是經濟部來主管。"],["劉委員書彬：好，我可以理解是事業主管的這部分是經濟部，可是因為它寫的是技術主管機關，特別強調技術，所以等一下到最後的時候，我就會提到，這部分還是要依據名目上面可能是比較適合的。","往下看，我們現在更重要的是在這裡，你剛才也說要做半導體的投資這一部分的時候就會經過跨部會，也就是跟經濟部，可能是投審會這邊相關的部分，剛才已經有提到是美國的投資是這個部分，我們就繼續往下看。因為台積電過去的投資項目有好幾種，包括去美國，然後又去了日本，然後又去了德國，因為依照剛才關鍵核心技術的清單當中，是講14奈米以下的，大家可以看到是在美國的部分就已經看到有4奈米、3奈米、2奈米，還有更先進製程的部分要呈現出來；日本是12奈米，有部分也是在14奈米之下；德國是特別用在車用的晶片當中，是12米，也有包括到12奈米。我想詢問一下，過去這一部分審理的期間大概是多少，那個程序你剛才也有說過了，審理會因為各國國家有……審理標準會一樣嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這三個國家都不在我們管制的範圍，這三個國家的科技都比臺灣還要進步。"],["劉委員書彬：但是我們的高科技是台積電到那邊去，所以你的意思是設廠而已，是不是？"],["吳主任委員誠文：那是投資，是投資的審議，跟核心關鍵技術其實是無關的。"],["劉委員書彬：好，但是我們再往下看，你剛才說在半導體的技術上面，其實這些國家都比我們強大是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是啊，在科技的部分，美國絕對比臺灣強大。"],["劉委員書彬：那是在半導體的晶片這邊嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：在半導體前瞻製程的量產，台積電現在是全世界第一。"],["劉委員書彬：台積電現在是製程上面……"],["吳主任委員誠文：製程，製造的技術裡面有非常多是我們叫商業機密know-how的部分，是台積電累積過去三十幾年、從1987年累積到現在，累積的這些製造相關的商業機密，它是很難被了解的，政府也不會完全了解，所以這部分是要保護的，台積電自己要保護得很好，我們政府也要求它要保護得很好，這部分是不能夠外移的，也沒有辦法。"],["劉委員書彬：好。可是你剛才說要求台積電自己要保護得很好，因為這邊是屬於商業的部分。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["劉委員書彬：可是剛才也看到美國那邊也要設晶圓的研發中心，在這樣情況之下，我們剛才看到的是，台積電在3月4日跟美國總統在開記者會的時候，都已經說到它就是要去投資了。這種情況，對於台積電，我們國科會在審理上面可以說不嗎？還是怎麼應對這個情況呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我可以跟委員解釋一下嗎？"],["劉委員書彬：好。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為台積電也公開這樣的闡述，台積電所謂在美國投資的研發中心，是基於它已經量產的技術到當地製造以後，那個製造還要不斷的精進，所以它同一個製程的精進版也需要有研發中心來協助它的精進。所以在不同的廠區，精進的模式都會不一樣，會依照當地的供應鏈、設備，還有它的市場、產品做製程節點的精進，所以其實投資的每一個廠區都會有這樣的研發中心。"],["劉委員書彬：好，因為您是半導體的專家，所以你就提到說，它是針對當地的產品跟當地的交換合作，這樣子來提升技術的可行性。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["劉委員書彬：好，因為時間的關係，我繼續再說下去，我把它放到最後面來看，這個地方我們可以看到原來是商業機密的部分跟技術面，還是有跟各國在合作的部分，是這個情況。這部分剛才說還有群聚要過去，我也聽到這部分，但是我是想到要避免我們臺灣出現荷蘭病，因為資源的過度集中會把它扭曲，包括其他的部分有排擠效應。您在國科會的報告當中，其實有談到太空科技，包括淨零科技產業，不過包括你說百工百業都能夠轉到數位這部分，我看到的是太空科技這邊好像沒有把國防的部分再納到所謂的太空科技，包括錢這部分，事實上可能可以再把它含括在裡面，包括無人機。淨零科技事實上到2050年都是一直要進行的，它可以適用到所謂傳統的各種產業，我想說這邊可能應該有更多的科技、技術及研發經費等等都要加入，提供這樣的建議。","最後，我提供這個建議，當然我是希望你也把它做個分工，因為剛開始強調技術部分的主管機關，我覺得國科會當之無疑，所以這個地方如果把它放入清單，作為技術部分的主管機關，我真的覺得還是應該抓回到國家關鍵核心管制技術裡面的職責，針對產業鏈轉移的問題，希望能夠繼續再注意到。好，就這樣子，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉書彬委員的質詢，主委請回座、部會官員回座，謝謝。","我們接著繼續進行質詢，請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}},{"id":"159233","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159233","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb5680d44307ee3dcfad7e46c29134393ceba1aea0cf818e91aa4188f185dccfdb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:05:26 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這個部分我們也看到有一些媒體發現說全台172家的國中或國小他的附近的工廠在近5年裡面有違規"},{"start":436.485,"end":461.064,"text":"違反公務法被這個裁法的規定那另外也注意到說這個工廠都相距不到500公尺那這部分將來如何針對這個可能影響的這些兒童們做長期健康的追蹤或者是在教育部目前有沒有哪一些方案在協助讓這樣的這個違規可以減少的同時對兒童的保護是有再加強的"},{"start":462.212,"end":476.707,"text":"跟委員報告一下我們部裡有那個健康處境方案那這部分我會請我們部裡的國教署來把這部分就是這172學校看是不是可以把它做一個長期的追蹤這部分我回去會請國教署來做一個處理謝謝委員關心這議題"},{"start":480.21,"end":507.249,"text":"報告委員其實這個東西因為台灣很地小人稠所以不是只有學校很多的民眾也住在工廠的旁邊所以這個問題應該是社區學校跟工廠之間要有一個更好的互動機制讓大家一起來改才有辦法那我們今年會努力找幾個案例來推看看因為其實有些地方我們看到有些地方經過大家的努力不是抗議啦是努力啦協調之後終於成功了"},{"start":507.629,"end":528.824,"text":"是我們其實是期待社區的各方面的能力可以加進來而不是說純粹用抗疫的方式去改善而已那最後一個問題就是有關於教室室內的品質空品的改善因為我們也知道這個教室裡面現在很多兒童包括是幼兒園或者是小學都會"},{"start":530.458,"end":556.136,"text":"大概很長的時間在教室裡面那台大醫院蘇教授他們也做了相關的研究發現說這個室內換氣不足的話呢在過去那個COVID那段時間其實真的是會影響這個新冠病毒這個傳染的風險而且高達三倍之多所以他們也建議說在這個室內的換氣的地方需要再加強除了說這個室內的一些"},{"start":558.057,"end":580.553,"text":"相關的消毒措施以外包括這種加裝抽風扇或者是其他的防疫措施可是這個就是需要費用未來未來在不管是幼兒園或者是小學這部分如果要加強這種空調或者是風扇的這些處理的話不曉得有沒有哪一些的措施正在設法改善中"},{"start":581.184,"end":606.412,"text":"跟委員也報告一下因為現在室內空氣品質的部分全國大概就是高中以下的學校大概有將近快1萬所那目前部理就是跟地方政府還有學校就是以推動那個示範學校就是自主標章這部分來做管理那像大專的話他是全面都要納管那高中以下的部分目前大概有像幼兒園的部分大概有150個學校達到優良和"},{"start":610.554,"end":617.065,"text":"就是它達到符合的這樣空氣品質標準的規定我們會再把這部分再持續的擴大讓幼兒園的學生能夠有一個乾淨呼吸的空氣品質"},{"start":623.292,"end":648.763,"text":"跟委員報告一下這部分部理會持續來追蹤這部分我還是需要跟地方政府和學校來做一個溝通因為其實如果學校學校要符合這空氣品比較髒他的規範還蠻嚴格他需要專責人員那像幼兒園他人數少他如果要設置專責人員他需要額外另外一筆經費這部分我們跟環保環境部一起來討論一下怎麼樣適合推動到幼兒園的部分來做相關的一些規劃和計劃謝謝委員關心這議題"},{"start":652.705,"end":673.452,"text":"好謝謝葉報委員這其實我看到那個其實我也很有感啦也建議貴院立法院也能夠以身作則能夠改善一下啊其實包含節電空氣品質改善這個要大家一起做啦不是只有幼兒園其實最後想要請教部長就是我們的這個CO2到底室內它的這個最低標準是多少"},{"start":674.092,"end":699.508,"text":"八小時要一千嘛八小時平均一千我們是超標啦會覺得昏昏欲睡所以為了昭緯的健康為了我們144同仁的健康還有為了大家在這個室內的健康我們很期待至少我們這個801相關的這部分是不是能夠做一些有效措施來改善好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝王委員 謝謝部長部長剛剛特別提到"},{"start":703.763,"end":704.07,"text":"請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":727,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時5分）謝謝主席，還是有請彭部長……"],["主席：請彭部長。"],["王委員正旭：還有衛福部的卓技正。"],["主席：請卓技正。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝部長今天早上告訴我們有關於每一年花費100億以上在空污的治理得到一些好的成果，當然我們還持續希望能夠有機會更改善。我們也了解，每一天每一個時間都需要呼吸，空氣的品質對我們來講真的非常非常的重要！不過我今天的重點會放在相對是在室內的空氣品質部分。","我們也知道，在民國100年的時候，我們就通過室內空氣品質管理法這一部法律，在101年就頒布了室內空氣品質標準。剛剛召委也很關心，到底我們這個室內品質在九項指標裡面有沒有符合標準？我們發現，的確，我在9點28分的時候注意到我們的CO2濃度是1495，現在是1544，在1個小時之前更高，到1700，到底我們怎麼去感受這種品質的問題？","我們也知道，事實上，目前有列管的場所包括有1,186個地方的室內品質要管控，包括政府機構、大學院校，還有運動健身場所，當然還包括醫療機構及很多的社福機構。我們所看到的部分就是會擔心，尤其在COVID-19那段時間裡面大家對於室內空調的部分是有非常高的要求，希望能夠避免到了室內的時候會因為空氣品質的關係而造成影響。","我們看到，其實臺北市曾經在106年的時候就針對醫院室內空氣品質超標有一些處罰的案例，到了去年（113年），他們也針對不管是百貨公司或者是醫療機構去做了稽查，也發現有一些醫院是有檢測超標的部分。當然我們也了解，像我們剛剛所處理的措施，就是讓空氣流通會更好，不管是把窗戶打開，或者是加強空調換氣的部分。這一部分，尤其是醫院的部分，透過兩個部會來看，將來有沒有機會有一些專案的改善，或者是必須要做哪一些措施，才能夠讓醫院的空氣品質也能夠達到我們所期待的標準，不知道部長或者是技正有沒有什麼意見想要來做報告？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我先報告一下，其實我們去年跟委員報告，我們努力爭取預算幫醫院做節能的部分，當然我知道長庚醫院做的是最好的，有些醫院也在跟進當中，我們也媒合了壽險業者能夠來進行這個投資，就結合ESCO在做，這個現在在進行當中，希望很快的就有幾件案例可以成真，因為這個是公營的，他需要這樣額外的資金，很多私營的都願意來做，當他做這個ESCO節能的時候，其實空品就會跟著去改善，因為這個其實是很好的一個理由。另外一個是醫療的部分，我們是不是請衛福部來做報告。"],["卓簡任技正琍萍：委員好！確實，我們在醫院的部分有配合環境部推動一些計畫，所以我們也針對醫院淨零的這個部分陸續有做一些相關的宣導及推動相關的計畫，以上。"],["王委員正旭：是，這個都會牽扯到經費……"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員正旭：很期待兩個部會可以有更緊密的結合，讓這些經費除了去做監測以外，也能夠落實到在不同的場域來進行改善。"],["彭部長啓明：對，報告委員，我們目前的經驗是民間的醫院、私立的醫院做得反而比公立的醫院來得積極，因為公立的醫院要編列經費，然後它有預算上編定的限制，還要公開招標，所以對於ESCO的限制相對就會多一點點，我們現在在突破這一點。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩部長，還有衛福部這邊也繼續努力，謝謝。","再下一個問題就是兒童醫院設立空品維護區的部分，早上也有委員提過這個問題，目前我們了解在新竹有成立了最新的一家兒童醫院，目前全臺已經有將近6家兒童醫院即將成立，甚至會到7家，我們也了解大部分來兒童醫院就醫的當然都是以兒童為主，空氣品質維護區變成是一個很需要去劃分出來的特定區域，新竹市政府宣稱，新竹馬偕的兒童醫院劃設是首度有這樣的要求，讓空氣品質可以更為穩定，將來有沒有機會所有的兒童醫院都有這樣空品維護區的設立，不知道目前環境部或者是衛福部有沒有這樣的計畫？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，能夠讓這種所謂的弱勢族群或是很敏感的族群受到保護，這是我們的目標，目前全臺灣21個縣市大概有85個空品維護區，這個都是地方環保局制定的，其實有的效果還不錯，或許今年度我們可以跟衛福部一起合作，針對一些兒童醫院我們先來試行、討論看看，再跟委員做報告，這個的確是一個很好的方法。"],["王委員正旭：是，因為的確依照空污法第四十條，這是地方政府要擬定，去劃分出空氣品質維護區，不過環境部要核定才能夠公告，所以我們希望是不是兩個部會協同地方政府在三個月裡面給我們一個書面報告，讓我們看這個進度如何？"],["彭部長啓明：可以，謝謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：那就麻煩繼續努力。","再過來就是有關於國中小附近空污的部分，這部分教育部是不是也有官員在現場？當然早上也有委員請教過，國中小附近空污的部分是跟學校附近的一些經濟發展，或者是一些相關的工業，或者是其他廠區的影響有關係，這個部分我們也看到有一些媒體發現，全臺有172家的國中或國小附近的工廠在近五年裡面有違反空污法的規定被裁罰，另外也注意到，這些工廠與學校都相距不到500公尺，這部分將來如何針對可能受影響的這些兒童們做長期健康的追蹤，或者是教育部目前有沒有哪一些方案在協助，讓這樣的違規可以減少的同時，對兒童的保護是有在加強的？"],["廖專門委員雙慶：跟委員報告，我們部裡有健康促進方案，這部分我會請我們部裡的國教署看是不是可以把這172間學校做長期的追蹤，這部分我回去會請國教署來做處理，謝謝委員關心這個議題。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實這個東西，因為臺灣地小人稠，所以不是只有學校，很多的民眾也住在工廠的旁邊，所以這個問題應該是社區、學校跟工廠之間要有一個更好的互動機制，讓大家一起來改才有辦法，我們今年會努力找幾個案例來推看看，因為其實我們看到有些地方經過大家的努力，不是抗議，是努力，協調之後終於成功了。"],["王委員正旭：是，我們其實是期待社區各方面的能力可以加進來，而不是純粹用抗議的方式去改善而已。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員正旭：最後一個問題就是有關於教室室內空品的改善，因為我們也知道，包括幼兒園或者是小學的教室，很多兒童都會很長的時間待在教室裡面，臺大醫院蘇教授他們也做了相關的研究，發現室內換氣不足的話，在過去COVID那段時間其實真的是會影響新冠病毒傳染的風險，而且高達3倍之多，所以他們也建議，室內換氣的地方需要再加強，除了室內一些相關的消毒措施以外，包括加裝抽風扇或者是其他的防疫措施，可是這個就是需要費用，未來不管在幼兒園或者是小學，如果要加強這種空調或者是風扇的處理的話，不曉得有沒有哪一些措施正在設法改善中？"],["廖專門委員雙慶：跟委員也報告一下，現在室內空氣品質的部分，全國高中以下的學校大概有將近快1萬所，目前部裡跟地方政府還有學校就是以推動示範學校自主標章這部分來做管理，像大專的話是全面都要納管，高中以下的部分，目前像幼兒園的部分大概有150個學校達到優良、達到符合空氣品質標章的規定，我們會把這部分再持續的擴大，讓幼兒園的學生能夠有呼吸乾淨空氣的品質。這部分部裡會持續來追蹤，這部分還是需要跟地方政府和學校來做溝通，因為如果學校要符合這個空氣品質標章，它的規範還蠻嚴格的，需要專責人員，像幼兒園的人數少，它如果要設置專責人員需要額外另外一筆經費，這部分我們會跟環境部一起來討論一下，怎麼樣適合推動到幼兒園的部分，來做相關的一些規劃和計畫，謝謝委員關心這個議題。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：也報告委員，我看到那個其實我也很有感，也建議貴院（立法院）也能夠以身作則，能夠改善一下，其實包含節電、空氣品質改善，這個要大家一起做，不是只有幼兒園而已。"],["王委員正旭：其實我最後想要請教部長，就是我們的CO2在室內的最低標準是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：8小時平均1,000，我們是超標，會覺得昏昏欲睡。"],["王委員正旭：所以為了召委的健康、為了我們議事同仁的健康，還有為了大家在室內的健康，我們很期待，至少我們這個801會議室在相關的這部分是不是能夠做一些有效措施來改善？好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。部長剛剛特別提到，請貴院，就請主秘反映一下，本院已經出問題了，再這樣下去，很多委員跟我們相關公部門的人員都會因為這種空氣品質導致昏昏欲睡，議事效率會不彰，官員答詢也會混沌不清，國家就會沒有未來了。","接下來我們請林淑芬委員來做詢答。","也在此作以下宣告：目前收到臨時提案共有5案，待會林淑芬委員質詢結束之後，我們就來進行處理。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}},{"id":"159232","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159232","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb931f494f8d92d737ad7e46c29134393ceba1aea0cf818e910c38360a1b553cc65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:51:18 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謝謝 請我們彭部長還有請一下我們衛福部的副署長衛福部哪位副署長圖爾元朝"},{"start":26.598,"end":54.227,"text":"好那我先請問一下我們衛福部請問一下我們目前我們十大癌症我們衛福部我問一下那個有關癌症的問題好那有關我們目前十大癌症我們蟬聯冠軍的是哪一個癌症委員你好我們這次是請國民健康署這邊來做相關的回答"},{"start":62.687,"end":70.312,"text":"委員是對我們十大癌症目前我們我們全國十大癌症然後纏連冠軍的是哪個癌症那個肺 肺癌對啊喔是肺癌好對啦因為這個之前之前大腸癌嘛那現在這幾年都是肺癌已經纏連我們十大癌症的冠軍那"},{"start":89.642,"end":97.458,"text":"其實我們根據我們目前一些科學數據的驗證肺癌也跟我們空氣品質有絕對的關係有直接的關係 對吧"},{"start":100.728,"end":119.663,"text":"那所以我們可以知道像我們有一個基因專家基因醫師張嘉明他也做過一個科學的報告也就是說他針對他們研究PM2.5跟肺腺癌的增加有密不可分的關係這部分我們衛福部這邊應該有掌握這個訊息吧有有嗎那"},{"start":127.498,"end":142.823,"text":"據我們這個報告有看到那我們針對肺癌的部分可是肺癌雖然跟我們抽菸也有直接的關係可是我們發現到有一個數據這裡面有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸時的這部分"},{"start":144.605,"end":162.094,"text":"有沒有掌握這個訊息委員針對肺癌的部分目前其實發生的原因就是抽菸然後跟空氣汙染還有這個紫葉的曝露另外就是家族史對啊所以空氣品質就是抽菸還有我們空氣品質有絕對的關係所以我們經過我們發現這肺癌裡面"},{"start":168.658,"end":187.651,"text":"居然有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸三分之一有抽菸死所以我們也可以從這個證明我們空氣品質對於我們肺癌有絕對直接的關係這一部分應該沒有問題吧它是其中的原因之一對嘛好那接下來我再問一下我們彭部長"},{"start":189.563,"end":212.703,"text":"因為這部分只是請我們衛福部來證明因為現在這癌症就是我們十大癌症已經纏連冠軍而且絕對跟我們空氣品質有絕對關係已經經過專家學者有科學數據的顯示那空氣品質當然抽菸還有我們PM2.5等等都是影響的因素那肺癌"},{"start":213.303,"end":238.181,"text":"肺癌患者裡面有三分之二是完全沒有抽菸所以我們也可以合理的推斷這三分之二就是因為我們空氣品質所造成的這部分部長應該同意吧同意不過委員這個空氣品質有室內跟室外例如說我們家裡面的很多的生活習慣大概佔了我們八成的時間都在室內所以室內跟室外不一樣但是我們有"},{"start":239.702,"end":253.027,"text":"數據顯示嘛就是PM2.5跟肺腺癌有密不可分的關係所以這部分也讓我們希望我們環境部是我們環境最高的主管機關我們衛福部可以先請下去了"},{"start":254.875,"end":275.231,"text":"那所以我們今天也是討論減碳的部分所以也凸顯了我們減碳是勢在必行因為這跟我們國人健康有絕對直接的關係那我們在今年初一月二十三號我們賴總統有召開第三次氣候變遷委員會的會議我記得我在去年的時候"},{"start":275.911,"end":299.558,"text":"那時候我們彭部長在8月23號也曾經講過在2032年我們檢探目標要往40%邁進這部分我記得彭部長你有說過吧就是我個人希望說未來2032年的時候我可以到那樣的目標但是我們後來召集各個部會得到這樣新的數字所以本來彭部長是希望能夠達到40%那後來"},{"start":302.299,"end":324.161,"text":"跟我們部會氣候變遷委員會討論之後後來新的目標是降低的嗎對就是說這個其實是因為當時我的理想我希望2032可以到40那我記得那時候李遠哲李院長他也希望說50所以我們後來但是我必須跟委員報告那個其實是我們會籍的環境部會籍的各個部會提出的減碳計畫最後得出這樣的數字"},{"start":327.103,"end":339.728,"text":"所以我記得我上次會期也有跟彭部長討論過因為我們現在的能源政策再加上我們彭部長的減碳目標我們覺得這個是背道而馳的因為我們現在"},{"start":342.229,"end":359.801,"text":"所發電的幾乎它的碳排量都是非常高那我們的能源政策碳排量都非常高那我們現在能源政策碳排量一直在增加結果我們環境部減碳的目標又一直定的那麼高所以我們說這好像是背道而馳嘛"},{"start":360.948,"end":376.942,"text":"包委員因為其實燃氣跟燃煤它的排蛋係數不一樣所以我們未來這幾年減碳其實很大一部分就是燃氣燃煤換成燃氣所以這個其實是有效果的那另外一個就是說燃氣它的污染也比燃煤少很多所以目前這個階段是對的"},{"start":378.263,"end":402.554,"text":"那當然我知道委員一定說希望關於核能的部分不過核能也跟委員報告其實真的要做的話其實我自己在算的時候也有問過台電或等等他包含要修正法規還有核安檢查核廢料的處理其實那個都不是我環境部可以來主管來推動的事情它的變數是非常多的在這個地方也跟委員報告所以我相信部長對這些也了解我們現在發電我們現在發電"},{"start":406.355,"end":430.261,"text":"結構最大的就是第一個就是燃氣嘛第二個就是燃煤再來就是再生能源然後再來核電跟燃油這個也是台電的數據那可是如果說以我們現在發電的方式你看那個燃煤發電最多燃氣發電最多可是你看它的碳排的係數它的碳排係數都是最高的"},{"start":431.164,"end":460.479,"text":"所以針對這部分剛剛彭部長也有講所以我一直認為說以我們環境部這部分來講是不是核能發電其實應該還是要以環境部的立場應該是要考慮核電來納入對於我們減碳是不是比較有幫助包委員其實環境部唯一的主管就是說如果核電它的要除液還有或是說它的幹式儲存槽它需要環評這個是我們可以主管的"},{"start":460.799,"end":488.824,"text":"那當然如果以減碳的話這個核能它的確是一個相對於低碳排的一個能源但是它也會有它的這個壓力存在所以這個部分呢還是要讓經濟部或是能源主管單位他們來送這個相關的規劃給我們但是以目前我那時候算我們淨零入境的情況下的確它是一個選項但是它後面的包含的未來未知的費用還有核廢料還有安全性等等其實有很多的變數在那個地方"},{"start":490.097,"end":493.299,"text":"好那我請問一下我們經濟部今天有代表來喔好再麻煩一下那現在"},{"start":505.854,"end":534.265,"text":"我們大家全球都在發展AI那麼也知道AI它的用電量劇增那針對這部分用電量劇增我們要因應我們AI的時代那可是如果我們要達到減碳要環境保育又要讓我們這用電劇增我們來應付這個用電的問題那我們經濟部這部分有沒有什麼方法來處理好 跟委員報告一下"},{"start":536.869,"end":559.05,"text":"我先回答待會再請我們能源署的代表再做一個說明我想基本上我們對於這個AI的用電會增加部分我們已經有先事先規劃有一些發電量的這個部分是有配合除了這個以外供給面的部分是有在規劃那在那個減"},{"start":560.772,"end":570.741,"text":"這個節電的部分我們也在推這個深度節能讓這個我們的用電量是不是可以相對的可以減少我們的這個用電那能源署這邊是在做一個補充"},{"start":571.485,"end":591.399,"text":"那以我們現在這樣子的方式我們現在這樣子的能源政策我們有辦法應付AI這麼大的用電量嗎跟委員報告我們能源署每一年都會做電力供需的一個評估那AI的部分我們的產發署會跟業者做一個深切的瞭解半導體的產業我們也會把它估計去"},{"start":593.141,"end":605.777,"text":"每一年大概在6月之前我們就會做一個供需報告所以AI的估計我們其實是有規劃進去的那整體的用電其實跟委員報告應該是沒有問題的 您放心"},{"start":607.779,"end":633.247,"text":"所以基本上我們現在要應付AI的用電矩陣然後我們要達到我們環境部我們要減碳又要環境保育等等問題你看連AIT美國在台協會古立言處長他都有講我們台灣是高度仰賴外國進口能源那美國是最大的能源出口國那他也提供天然氣提供再生能源當然"},{"start":634.767,"end":654.068,"text":"他現在好像也說他能夠提供最新的核能技術來支援我們那我們以這幾個前提之下我請問一下彭部長那如果這樣你的看法如何我們要兼顧要減碳要環境保育然後又要達到我們用電量"},{"start":654.728,"end":679.606,"text":"達到AI這些的用電量矩陣那環境部的立場是怎麼樣報告委員環境部的立場就是更多這種低碳對環境好的能源我們都歡迎不過也跟委員報告我也關注美國新的核能的發展的動態例如說他們的新的SMR那個New Scale的核電廠他們已經追加預算到105億美金所以其實他只有發大概只有400多MW"},{"start":680.146,"end":693.778,"text":"所以其實這個的費用是很難估計的如果未來國際上像美國他們有更好更新的已經有商業化運轉的我們當然會歡迎但是目前台灣我們還是只能靠自己去做一個轉型的工作"},{"start":695.595,"end":722.903,"text":"那所以其實之前我們也做過以核氧綠的公投那有六成的民眾是支持那我們也現在看到其實我們整體燃煤燃氣再生能源其實它的發電量整體進度上我們看起來也是落後的所以其實這個新的核能技術如果能夠提供又達到我們之前公投以核氧綠的結果然後也可以讓我們減碳也可以"},{"start":723.503,"end":741.988,"text":"讓我們的環境保育工作可以做得更好那這一部分我倒覺得是不是我們可以來考量一下這一部分而且新的核能政策整體來講人家現在來講目前核能也是最好的綠能那這一部分彭副長你也贊同嗎"},{"start":742.828,"end":772.088,"text":"核能不是綠能核能是乾淨的能源可是目前來講它整體來講它碳排量應該是非常非常低但是其實也報告委員我對核能並沒有什麼任何立場我很務實在看但是現實就在眼前因為它在國際上新的核能發展的技術費用非常的高而且還不確定那另外一個是研議的成本也可能在這個裡面所以委員如果你們可以解決我當然這個是樂觀其成但是這個壓力會非常的大"},{"start":772.868,"end":794.638,"text":"所以其實以目前來講我們姑且不談我們目前的能源政策不講政治上的問題目前看起來如果這整體新的能源政策目前看起來如果說要應付這AI的時代用電俱增要達到減碳要達到環保整體來講目前這新的核能技術核能來講其實是一個蠻好的選項"},{"start":796.139,"end":812.539,"text":"包委員我們目前規劃2035的減碳目標是沒有把核能放進去的那當然未來如果有任何的改變或新技術當然是可以幫助但是我也特別提醒委員因為後面的成本還有引發性的這個社會上的這個不同的意見應該蠻大的也請委員都可以多考量"},{"start":813.308,"end":835.767,"text":"好那我也希望我們大家可以來務實推動這個能源的轉型我們要應付我們的用電量要兼顧這減碳要兼顧環保我覺得這部分我們大家像我們經濟部環境部應該針對這部分我們可以好好的思維一下怎麼應付我們後面所要面臨用電量巨增要兼顧減碳環保的問題好謝謝謝謝圍恩謝謝好謝謝圖遠謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":682,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時51分）謝謝，請我們彭部長，還有請一下我們衛福部的副署長。"],["主席：來，請部長。衛福部哪一位副署長？簡任技正喔。"],["彭部長啓明：涂委員早。"],["涂委員權吉：好。我先請問一下衛福部有關癌症的問題，目前國人十大癌症當中，蟬聯冠軍的是哪一個癌症？"],["卓簡任技正琍萍：委員您好，這個問題是不是請國民健康署這邊來做相關的回答？"],["涂委員權吉：好。"],["歐科長良榮：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：目前全國十大癌症當中，蟬聯冠軍的是哪一個癌症？"],["歐科長良榮：肺癌。"],["涂委員權吉：對啦。因為之前的冠軍都是大腸癌，最近這幾年都是肺癌，已經蟬聯我們十大癌症的冠軍。其實根據目前一些科學數據的驗證，肺癌也跟我們的空氣品質有絕對的關係嘛，有直接的關係，對吧？所以我們可以知道，像我們有一個基因專家、基因醫師張家銘所做的科學研究報告指出，PM2.5跟肺腺癌的增加有密不可分的關係，這部分我們衛福部這邊應該也有掌握這個訊息吧？"],["歐科長良榮：有。"],["涂委員權吉：有嘛？"],["歐科長良榮：是。"],["涂委員權吉：根據我們看到的研究報告，針對肺癌的部分，肺癌雖然跟抽菸有直接的關係，可是我們也發現到一個數據，就是肺癌的確診個案中有三分之二是完全沒有抽菸史的，衛福部有沒有掌握這個訊息？"],["歐科長良榮：是，報告委員，針對肺癌的部分，目前肺癌發生的原因除了抽菸之外，還有空氣污染、職業的暴露，另外就是家族史。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊，所以除了抽菸，還有我們的空氣品質也有絕對的關係。我們發現，肺癌確診個案裡面居然有三分之二的是完全沒有抽菸，三分之一有抽菸史，所以也可由此證明，空氣品質跟肺癌有絕對直接的關係，這一部分應該沒有問題吧？"],["歐科長良榮：它是其中的原因之一。"],["涂委員權吉：對嘛！好，接下來我再問一下彭部長，我剛剛問的這個只是請衛福部來證明，因為現在肺癌已經蟬聯我們十大癌症之首，而且肺癌跟空氣品質有絕對的關係，已經過專家學者檢視過科學數據。當然抽菸，還有PM2.5等等，都是影響空氣品質的因素，肺癌患者裡面有三分之二完全沒有抽菸，所以我們也可以合理的推斷，這三分之二的肺癌患者，就是因為我們的空氣品質所造成的，這個推論部長應該同意吧？"],["彭部長啓明：同意，不過，委員，空氣品質有分為室內跟室外，例如說我們家裡面的很多生活習慣，大概占了我們八成的時間都在室內，所以室內跟室外不一樣。"],["涂委員權吉：對，但是我們也有數據顯示，PM2.5跟肺腺癌有密不可分的關係喔。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["涂委員權吉：衛福部官員可以先請回座。環境部是主管環境的最高主管機關，我們今天也是討論減碳的部分，所以這一部分也凸顯了減碳是勢在必行，因為這個跟我們國人的健康有絕對直接的關係。在今年初1月23號，我們賴總統有召開第三次氣候變遷委員會會議，我記得在去年的時候，那時候我們彭部長在8月23號也曾經講過，在2032年，我們的減碳目標要往40%邁進，這一部分我記得彭部長你有說過吧？"],["彭部長啓明：這是我個人希望，未來2032年的時候，我可以到那樣的目標，但是我們後來召集各個部會得到新的數字。"],["涂委員權吉：所以本來彭部長希望能夠達到40%，後來跟我們氣候變遷委員會討論之後，後來新的目標是降低的嘛？"],["彭部長啓明：對，因為其實這是當時我的理想，我希望2032年可以到40，我記得那時候李遠哲院長，他也希望能到50，所以我們後來，但是我必須跟委員報告，那個其實是我們環境部匯集了各個部會提出的減碳計畫，最後得出這樣我們可以做到的數字。"],["涂委員權吉：好。所以我記得我上個會期也有跟彭部長討論過，就我們現在的能源政策，再對比彭部長的減碳目標，我覺得兩者是背道而馳的嘛。因為我們現在用來發電的能源，幾乎它的碳排量都非常高，我們使用的能源碳排量都非常高，我們現在的能源政策導致碳排量一直在增加，結果我們環境部減碳的目標又一直訂得那麼高，所以我們說這好像是背道而馳嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實燃氣跟燃煤的排碳係數是不一樣的，所以我們未來幾年的減碳，很大一部分就是燃煤換成燃氣，這個轉換其實是有效果的。另外一個就是，燃氣的污染也比燃煤少很多，所以目前這個階段是對的。當然我知道委員一定說希望關於核能的部分，不過也跟委員報告，其實核能真的要做的話，我自己在算的時候也有問過台電，它包含要修正法規，還有核安檢查、核廢料的處理等等，那個都不是我環境部可以來主管、來推動的事情，它的變數是非常多的，在此也跟委員報告。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我相信部長對這些也了解，我們現在發電結構占比最大的，第一個就是燃氣，第二個就是燃煤，再來就是再生能源，然後再來是核電跟燃油，這是台電的數據。可是如果以我們現在發電的方式，你看燃煤、燃氣發電最多，可是你看它的碳排係數，它的碳排係數都是最高的。所以針對這一部分，剛剛彭部長也有講，我一直認為以我們環境部這一部分來講，以環境部的立場，應該是要考慮將核電納入，對於我們減碳是不是比較有幫助？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實環境部唯一主管的就是，如果核電要除役，還有或是它的乾式貯存槽需要環評，這是我們主管的。當然如果以減碳的角度，核能的確是一個碳排相對較低的能源，但是它也會有它的壓力存在，所以這個部分還是要讓經濟部，或是能源主管單位他們來送相關的規劃給我們。但是以我那時候算我們淨零路徑的情況下，的確它是一個選項，但是它後面的，包含未來未知的費用，還有核廢料，還有安全性等等，其實有很多的變數存在。"],["涂委員權吉：好，請問一下，經濟部今天有代表來嗎？好，再麻煩一下。現在全球都在發展AI，我們也知道，AI它的用電量遽增，針對用電量劇增這個部分，我們要因應我們的AI時代，可是我們要達到減碳，又要環境保育，為了讓我們應付這個用電劇增的問題，經濟部有沒有什麼方法來處理？"],["劉副司長起孝：跟委員報告一下，我先回答，待會再請我們能源署的代表做一個說明。基本上，對於AI用電會增加的部分，我們已經有事先規劃，發電量的這個部分是有配合，除了這個以外，供給面的部分是有在規劃，在節電的部分，我們也在推深度節能，讓我們的用電量相對的可以減少。能源署再做一個補充。"],["涂委員權吉：以我們現在這樣子的能源政策，我們有辦法應付AI這麼大的用電量嗎？"],["夏代理組長峪泉：跟委員報告，我們能源署每一年都會做電力供需的一個評估，AI的部分，我們的產發署會跟業者做一個深切的了解，半導體的產業，我們也會估進去，每一年大概在6月之前我們就會做一個供需報告，所以AI的估計我們其實是有規劃進去的，整體的用電，跟委員報告，應該是沒有問題的，您放心。"],["涂委員權吉：基本上，我們現在要應付AI的用電劇增，環境部又要達到減碳，又要環境保育等等，你看連AIT（美國在台協會）谷立言處長都有講，我們臺灣是高度仰賴外國進口能源，而美國是最大的能源出口國，他也提供天然氣、提供再生能源。當然他現在好像也說能夠提供最新的核能技術來支援我們。以這幾個前提之下，我請問一下彭部長，如果這樣，你的看法如何？我們要兼顧，又要達到減碳，又要環境保育，又要應付我們AI的用電量劇增，環境部的立場是怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，環境部的立場就是更多這種低碳、對環境好的能源，我們都歡迎，不過也跟委員報告，我也關注美國新核能的發展動態，例如他們新的NuScale的SMR核電廠已經追加預算到105億美金，但是它大概只有發四百多MW，所以其實這個的費用是很難估計的，如果未來國際上像美國有更好更新的、已經有商業化運轉的，我們當然會歡迎，但是目前臺灣還是只能靠自己去做轉型的工作。"],["涂委員權吉：其實之前我們也做過以核養綠的公投，有六成的民眾是支持的，我們現在也看到，我們燃煤、燃氣、再生能源的發電量整體進度上是落後的，所以這個新的核能技術如果能夠提供，又達到我們之前以核養綠公投的結果，也可以讓我們減碳，也可以讓我們的環境保育工作可以做得更好，我倒覺得是不是我們可以來考量一下這一部分，而且整體來講，人家也講，目前核能也是最好的綠能。這一部分，彭部長，你也贊同嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：核能不是綠能，核能是乾淨的能源。"],["涂委員權吉：乾淨的能源。可是整體來講，目前它的碳排量應該是非常非常的低……"],["彭部長啓明：相對的非常的低，但是也報告委員，我對核能並沒有任何立場，我很務實在看，現實就在眼前，因為目前在國際上新的核能發展技術費用非常的高，而且還不確定，另外一個是延役的成本也可能在這個裡面，委員，所以如果你們可以解決，我當然是樂觀其成，但是這個壓力會非常的大。"],["涂委員權吉：我們姑且不談我們目前的能源政策，不講政治上的問題，目前看起來，如果要應付這個AI時代的用電劇增，又要達到減碳，又要達到環保，整體來講，這個新的核能技術其實是一個蠻好的選項。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們目前規劃2035的減碳目標是沒有把核能放進去的，未來如果有任何的改變或新技術，當然是可以幫助，但是我也特別提醒委員，因為後面的成本還有引發社會上不同的意見應該蠻大的，也請委員多考量。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我也希望我們大家可以來務實推動能源的轉型，我們要應付我們的用電量，要兼顧減碳、要兼顧環保，我覺得經濟部、環境部應該針對這一部分好好的思維一下，怎麼應付後面所要面臨用電量劇增，又要兼顧減碳、環保的問題。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請王正旭委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}},{"id":"159231","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159231","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb20e43d21992b9d23871e4a585984f629eba1aea0cf818e9112974bf4722aa1b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:59:50 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麻煩有請委員長委員長"},{"start":9.762,"end":33.073,"text":"黃委員你好委員長好,我請一陣子發了一個函請你們提供給我僑務委員的名單是到目前為止都沒有正式的回文給我跟委員報告,我們有跟因為你們,我先一樣一樣來我到目前為止聽到了只有電話回覆那我想先確立一個基本的原則"},{"start":34.758,"end":43.294,"text":"僑委會對於委員發函的所知都是用電話回覆嗎?不是那為什麼到現在沒有公文回我呢?這樣對嗎?"},{"start":46.31,"end":70.617,"text":"委員我們有跟辦公室做說明我知道是電話回覆我們已經準備好一個一個機密檔案是要我親自送到辦公室給你看所以要跟你約時間什麼時候會送來就看委員辦公室給我時間是因為委員辦公室一直沒有給我時間所以我那個資料一直準備好我是要親自帶過去沒有我到目前為止我跟委員長說明一下就是說"},{"start":72.057,"end":87.667,"text":"因為我辦公室同仁在跟對外聯繫的時候,如果是公務電話打來,他們都會做電話記錄我目前為止所看到的電話...改革委員報告我們不只是打電話,我們有請我們國會組的同仁到辦公室去溝通然後你們回來就說,僑務委員是"},{"start":92.53,"end":116.942,"text":"機密資訊嘛然後所以我要看過往都是由委員長親自向委員說明這個是你們目前的同仁給我的口頭回覆確實是這樣我們不分哪個黨派都一樣的做法所以所有的標準都一樣嗎是甚至之前柯總召跟我要我也沒有給他沒有關係啦剛剛你所謂用密件回覆的打算什麼時候回給我"},{"start":118.317,"end":142.797,"text":"就看委員什麼時間有空我就隨時把那個資料帶去只有能現場給你看完我就要收回我們先來就國家的制度面上來討論這個問題因為僑務委員是依照僑務委員會組織法的規定由總統任命的嘛我的理解應該沒錯吧有法源依據我國目前的法規"},{"start":144.358,"end":157.149,"text":"到底在什麼地方把喬武委員的身份是列為機密因為我在法規找了半天完全找不到我們到底是依照什麼法規把喬武委員的身份列為機密"},{"start":158.951,"end":188.067,"text":"好 各位委員報告 這個就在我們的細則裡面是主要過去這20年 中共的哪一個細則我們有我們內部的行政細則沒有關係啊 你把那個行政細則 等一下直接提供給我好不好該不會連這個細則也是密件吧不會 細則可以提供來 你們喲 僑務委員其實每年都開會嘛這個都是公開的場合啊"},{"start":189.611,"end":214.436,"text":"開僑務委員會議的時候,也不是機密會議嗎?沒有公開,沒有開會的時候,只有總統歷臨致死的時候有媒體之後都全部清場的OK來,我們再來看一下,2025年3月12號你們在僑委會的網站公告,續任僑務委員吳怡銘嗎?是行任僑務委員有哪些人嗎?那這不是機密嗎?"},{"start":215.718,"end":241.338,"text":"跟委員報告 這個都是真的當事人同意他們想要登 我們才會讓他們登出來分兩類嘛一個是當事人同意 一個是當事人不同意嘛那現在當事人同意的有幾個人因為你要聘喬烏委員嘛那你剛講的那些理由 我大概以前都聽過啦所以應該分兩類嘛一個是當事人同意 一個是當事人不同意嘛現在當事人同意的有幾個人"},{"start":242.251,"end":264.151,"text":"我們現在全球不到180個是171個僑務委員那同意的有幾個人同意的我們這個大概佔數量有相當多但是仍然有將近二三十個不同意沒有關係啊那所以就分兩個而已嘛同意的名單就不是機密了嘛是吧"},{"start":265.871,"end":273.26,"text":"應該這樣子講就是說我們可以提供某些名單讓委員看過那不同意的我們就不提供"},{"start":274.426,"end":301.684,"text":"這個當然沒有問題嘛所以我才說分兩類嘛但是我們基於不想幫對岸整理好完整的資料就揭露請你聽完我的問題再回答因為分兩類嘛一個是同意的嘛一個是不同意的嘛那不同意的在法規上面他們有沒有不同意的理由我們可以再討論嘛同意的部分就沒有列為機密的必要這樣沒有錯吧"},{"start":304.085,"end":325.759,"text":"基本上他們如果同意我們是可以公開其實這個事情從很早以前就開始吵了2002年那個時候的僑委會他的立場是什麼他說選出來本來就是要服務僑胞如果不公開的確不適當這個時候那個時候的僑委會的主委應該是張復美張主委"},{"start":328.827,"end":348.506,"text":"當委員長他那個時候在面對立法院詢問的時候他的立場就是這個樣子所以這個立場是什麼時候改變的我們這個立場都一致沒有改變來看一下2002年11月12號僑委會公開全部僑委名單如果都一致的話2002年11月12號怎麼會有這個媒體報導"},{"start":353.052,"end":374.544,"text":"而且我們沒有公開啊沒有沒有2002年11月12號你說從以前到現在都一致嗎對啊所以我們一直沒有公佈啊沒有沒有先停一下所以這個是假新聞嗎這是真的啊所以他有公他沒有公佈啊等一下等一下僑委會公開全部僑委名單你有看到嗎沒有啊看右手邊"},{"start":380.69,"end":391.783,"text":"僑委會公開全部僑委名單 白紙黑字寫在上面沒有 那也沒有真的全部公開 也沒有那奇怪囉 來來來來來2003年3月 從來沒有過2003年3月 這個是在立法院的委員會紀錄喔來看一下張委員長赴美"},{"start":402.636,"end":430.219,"text":"僑務委員由總統聘請他們的名單都會公布目前我們計畫印製簡單的手冊如果大院委員有需要我們都會提供這個是立法院公報的資訊所以你說這是假訊息嗎我不能說是假訊息但是當時的回應之後也是沒有提供奇怪了對他們都已經那個時候都已經公布名單啊在立法院裡面都這樣講"},{"start":431.752,"end":444.981,"text":"然後你還在否認這個客觀的指示我的認知是當時張委員長雖然有做這個回應但之後也是沒有公開所以你的意思是說他在立法院講一套後來做另外一套是這樣嗎"},{"start":446.26,"end":461.396,"text":"我不知道 我沒有辦法為以前的事情負責跟委員說明 當時是一樣的做法就是沒有做一份名單對外公開但是有親自拿去給委員看過就像我現在要送去給你看的是一樣的做法所以張委員長是那樣子做的他在委員會裡面就已經講了"},{"start":468.285,"end":489.765,"text":"他說大院委員有需要會提供,但是沒有講什麼提供方式,所以確實後來是以去拜會委員親自拿給委員看過,然後就收回,確實是這樣的做法再來看一下,你說從以前到現在,剛剛我已經跟你講了從以前是怎麼處理到現在這個是民進黨的蘇巧惠委員的資訊,連蘇巧惠委員都在質疑"},{"start":493.837,"end":507.751,"text":"他說這個是大家覺得身負重任非常光榮的代表台灣然後他跟你們所知然後你們也給他了那你們給他的名字上面是用黃圈名羅圈結"},{"start":509.352,"end":537.79,"text":"有提供給他他對於你們這種公開的方式也表達不滿但我現在的問題是啊我連蘇巧惠委員這種遮蔽中間名字的名單都拿不到這到底是怎麼回事啊你們是面對不同黨派的沒有委員我們當時也是給他看就收回了也沒有真的給他這個做法我們都是一致的就是說我們會請委員長或副委員長親自帶去委員辦公室給委員看過看完以後一樣收回"},{"start":538.715,"end":564.846,"text":"你那奇怪了那他為什麼手上會有僑務委員名單他沒有啊那他上面寫說給我的名單需要用黃圈名羅圈結陳圈錦就是現場拿給他看的東西啊所以這是他背下來的就對了這是啊他可能憑印象背的啊我老實這樣講啦齁這件事情啊目前在法規上面其實是沒有編密件的法律依據剛剛你說有細則嗎"},{"start":566.929,"end":593.84,"text":"任何對於這種資訊的遮蔽任何對這種資訊的遮蔽在沒有法規的授權之下我們還是要尊重當事人的意願啊是啊 所以就分兩類嘛一個是當事人願意 一個是當事人不願意嘛現在我先不跟你扯法規嘛最起碼當事人願意的那個部分剛剛你說過沒有問題嘛 是吧當事人有意願的部分的名單什麼時候可以提供"},{"start":594.95,"end":614.505,"text":"委員我是已經準備好一份要拿去你辦公室給你看了就是當事人有意願的部分但是我們仍然不希望這一份資料流出去還是為了國家安全跟個人隱私如果是這樣啦我基本上的建議是這個如果要編密件必須要有法律授權的基礎"},{"start":615.727,"end":632.663,"text":"密件不一定要法律授權不一樣等一下等一下先停一下你說密件不需要法律授權我們的公文處理不見得是要依據我們的行政命令就可以處理密件了如果啦按照你這樣講是成立的啊是國家機密保護法根本沒有立法的必要嘛"},{"start":634.717,"end":649.691,"text":"當初國家機密保護法為什麼要立法台灣是民主法治的國家欸可是機密委員 我跟您報告一下我們在海外的委員在各個不同的國家大家有不同的處境有些國家是單一國籍的"},{"start":650.251,"end":672.54,"text":"如果他已經成為當地的公民他還仍然保有台灣的國籍然後或者他是擔任我們的僑務委員同時這個身份的時候他可能會被當地的政府追究所以這件事情我們不是可以這麼單純的去思考剛剛你講的啦是理由的部分啦我現在在跟你講的是你在編密件的時候有沒有法律授權基礎的部分"},{"start":673.598,"end":700.629,"text":"我要這樣講今天即使你講的理由可以有討論的空間但是一樣要有法律的授權才可以編密件這個是我在法律上面的理解如果一個公務機關沒有法律授權的依據他愛編密件就編密件台灣還是法治國家嗎我們還有需要制定國家機密保護法嗎就不用啦我想我們討論的層級是不一樣的"},{"start":702.67,"end":727.319,"text":"剛剛你說的嘛黃委員注意一下時間 你現在問的比本委還要久了不需要法律授權 行政機關自己就可以訂喔委員這個扯遠了剛剛這就是你說的啊有些行政程序是我們可以做密件處理的從過去到現在我們都是按照標準我沒有自己獨立創作 沒有我沒有這個就是我跟你認知不一樣的地方嘛"},{"start":728.998,"end":750.561,"text":"委員你沒有擔任過行政職你不了解這個作業對所以呢當過行政職的人就沒有法律授權的依據自己要編密件就可以編密件不是沒有法律授權我們還是有一些行政職對嘛所以我就問你嘛不公開我們的密件就是不公開就叫做密件跟委員定義的密件邏輯是不一樣的好不好所以需不需要法律授權的依據不用嘛"},{"start":751.121,"end":754.607,"text":"不是我們兩位委員你討論的意見跟我講的意見是不同的定義邏輯委員長請之後再跟黃委員說明好的你給我一個時間我親自私下去跟你說明好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":585,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時59分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請委員長。"],["主席：有請委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：黃委員，你好。"],["黃委員國昌：委員長好。我前一陣子發了一個函，請你們提供給我僑務委員的名單。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["黃委員國昌：到目前為止都沒有正式的回文給我。"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，我們有跟……"],["黃委員國昌：我一樣一樣來，到目前為止，我聽到的只有電話回復，那我想先確立一個基本原則，僑委會對於委員發函索資，都是用電話回復嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：不是。"],["黃委員國昌：那為什麼到現在沒有公文回我呢？這樣對嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我們有跟辦公室說明。"],["黃委員國昌：我知道，是電話回復。"],["徐委員長佳青：我們已經準備好一個機密檔案，是要我親自送到辦公室給你看，所以要跟你約時間。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候會送來？"],["徐委員長佳青：就看委員辦公室給我時間，是因為委員辦公室一直沒有給我時間，所以我那個資料一直準備著，我是要親自帶過去。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我跟委員長說明一下，就是我辦公室同仁在對外聯繫的時候，如果是公務電話打來，他們都會做電話紀錄，我到目前為止所看到的電話……"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，我們不只是打電話，我們還有請國會組的同仁到辦公室去溝通。"],["黃委員國昌：一樣，一樣，然後你們回說，僑務委員是機敏資訊，所以我要看，過往都是由委員長親自向委員說明，這是你們同仁目前給我的口頭回復。"],["徐委員長佳青：確實是這樣，我們不分哪個黨派都一樣的作法。"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以所有的標準都一樣？"],["徐委員長佳青：是，甚至之前柯總召跟我要，我也沒有給他。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，剛剛你所謂用密件回復，打算什麼時候回給我？"],["徐委員長佳青：就看委員什麼時間有空，我就隨時把那個資料帶去，現場給你看完，我就要收回。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們先就國家的制度面來討論這個問題，因為僑務委員是依照僑務委員會組織法的規定，由總統任命的，我的理解應該沒有錯吧？"],["徐委員長佳青：是，有法源依據。"],["黃委員國昌：那我國目前的法規到底在什麼地方把僑務委員的身分列為機密？因為法規我找了半天，完全找不到。我們到底是依照什麼法規，把僑務委員的身分列為機密？"],["徐委員長佳青：好，跟委員報告，這個都在我們的細則裡面，主要是過去這二十年中共的……"],["黃委員國昌：哪一個細則？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們有我們內部的行政細則。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你把那個行政細則等一下直接提供給我，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。"],["黃委員國昌：該不會連這個細則也是密件吧？"],["徐委員長佳青：不會，細則可以提供。"],["黃委員國昌：你們僑務委員其實每年都開會，都是公開的場合，而且開僑務委員會議的時候也不是機密會議。"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有公開，沒有，開會的時候只有總統蒞臨致詞的時候有媒體，之後都全部清場的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，來，我們再來看一下，2025年3月12號，你們在僑委會的網站公告續任僑務委員吳怡明、新任僑務委員有哪些人，那這不是機密嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，這個都是徵得當事人同意，他們想要登我們才會讓他們登出來。"],["黃委員國昌：所以分兩類嘛，一個是當事人同意，一個是當事人不同意。"],["徐委員長佳青：對，沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：現在當事人同意的有幾個人？因為你要聘僑務委員，那你剛剛講的那些理由，我大概以前都聽過啦，所以應該分兩類嘛，一個是當事人同意，一個是當事人不同意，現在當事人同意的有幾個人？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們現在全球不到180個，是171個僑務委員。"],["黃委員國昌：是，那有同意的有幾個人？"],["徐委員長佳青：同意的有相當多，但是仍然有將近二、三十個不同意。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啊，所以就分兩類。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["黃委員國昌：同意的名單就不是機密了嘛，是吧？"],["徐委員長佳青：應該這樣講，就是我們可以提供某些名單讓委員看過，那不同意的我們就不提供。"],["黃委員國昌：這個當然沒有問題嘛！所以我才說分兩類嘛，因為……"],["徐委員長佳青：但是我們基於不想幫對岸整理好完整的資料揭露……"],["黃委員國昌：請你聽完我的問題再回答。因為分兩類嘛，一個是同意的，一個是不同意的，那不同意的在法規上有沒有不同意的理由，我們可以再討論，同意的部分就沒有列為機密的必要，這樣沒有錯吧？"],["徐委員長佳青：基本上他們如果同意，我們是可以公開。"],["黃委員國昌：好，其實這個事情從很早以前就開始吵了，2002年那個時候的僑委會，它的立場是什麼？他說選出來本來就是要服務僑胞，如果不公開的確不適當，那個時候的僑委會主委應該是張富美主委。"],["徐委員長佳青：張委員長。"],["黃委員國昌：對，他那個時候在面對立法院詢問的時候，他的立場就是這個樣子，所以這個立場是什麼時候改變的？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們這個立場都一致，沒有改變。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，沒有，來看一下，2002年11月12號僑委會公開全部僑委名單，如果都一致的話，2002年11月12號怎麼會有這個媒體報導？而且……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們沒有公開啊！"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，沒有，2002年11月12號，你說從以前到現在都一致。"],["徐委員長佳青：對啊，所以我們一直沒有公布啊！"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，沒有，先停一下。所以這個是假新聞嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：這是真的啊！"],["黃委員國昌：所以他有公……"],["徐委員長佳青：他沒有公布啊！"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，等一下，僑委會公開全部僑委名單，你有看到嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有啊！"],["黃委員國昌：看右手邊，僑委會公開全部僑委名單，白紙黑字寫在上面。"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有，那也沒有真的全部公開。"],["黃委員國昌：那奇怪了，來！來！來！2003年3月……"],["徐委員長佳青：從來沒有過。"],["黃委員國昌：2003年3月，這是立法院的委員會紀錄，來看一下張委員長富美：「僑務委員由總統聘請，他們的名單都會公布。目前我們計畫印製簡單的手冊，如果大院委員有需要，我們都會提供。」這是立法院公報的資訊，所以你說這是假訊息嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：我不能說是假訊息，但是當時回應之後也是沒有提供。"],["黃委員國昌：奇怪了！"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["黃委員國昌：那個時候都已經公布名單啦，在立法院都這樣講耶，然後你還在否認這個客觀的事實。"],["徐委員長佳青：我的認知是當時張委員長雖然有做這個回應，但之後也是沒有公開提供。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的意思是他在立法院講一套，後來做另外一套，是這樣嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：我不知道，我沒有辦法為以前的事情負責，跟委員說明，當時是一樣的作法，就是沒有做一份名單對外公開，但是有親自拿去給委員看過，就像我現在要送去給你看，是一樣的作法，所以張委員長是那樣子做的。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，他在委員會裡面就已經講了……"],["徐委員長佳青：他說大院委員有需要會提供，但是沒有講提供方式，所以確實後來是去拜會委員，親自拿給委員看過，然後就收回，確實是這樣的作法。"],["黃委員國昌：再來看一下，你說從以前到現在，剛剛我已經跟你講了，以前是怎麼處理，到現在，這個是民進黨的蘇巧慧委員的質詢，連蘇巧慧委員都在質疑，他說：「大家應該是覺得身負重任，非常光榮的代表臺灣……。」他跟你們索資，然後你們也給他了，但你們給他的名字上面是用黃○民、羅○杰的方式，有提供給他，但他對於你們這種公開的方式也表達不滿。我現在的問題是，我連蘇巧慧委員這種遮蔽中間名字的名單都拿不到，這到底是怎麼回事啊？你們是面對不同黨派的委員有不同的標準嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有，委員，我們當時也是給他看就收回了，也沒有真的給他，這個作法我們都是一致的，就是我們會請委員長或副委員長親自帶去委員辦公室給委員看過，看完以後就一樣收回。"],["黃委員國昌：咦，那奇怪了，那他為什麼手上會有僑務委員名單？"],["徐委員長佳青：他沒有啊！"],["黃委員國昌：那他說給他的名單需要用黃○民、羅○杰、陳○錦……"],["徐委員長佳青：就是現場拿給他看的東西啊！"],["黃委員國昌：所以這是他背下來的就對了？"],["徐委員長佳青：是啊，他可能憑印象背的啊。"],["黃委員國昌：我老實這樣講，這件事情目前在法規上面其實沒有編密件的法律依據，剛剛你說有細則嘛，任何對於這種資訊的遮蔽，在沒有法規的授權之下……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們還是要尊重當事人的意願啊！"],["黃委員國昌：是啦，所以就分兩類嘛，一個是當事人願意，一個是當事人不願意，現在我先不跟你扯法規，最起碼當事人願意的那個部分，剛剛你說過沒有問題嘛，是吧？當事人有意願部分的名單什麼時候可以提供？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我是已經準備好一份，要拿去你辦公室給你看了。"],["黃委員國昌：就是當事人有意願的部分嘛？"],["徐委員長佳青：但是我們仍然不希望這一份資料流出去，還是為了國家安全和個人隱私。"],["黃委員國昌：如果是這樣，我基本上的建議是，這個如果要編密件必須要有法律授權的基礎，要不然……"],["徐委員長佳青：密件不一定要法律授權，不一樣。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，先停一下，你說密件不需要法律授權？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們的公文處理不見得是要依據，我們的行政命令就可以處理密件了。"],["黃委員國昌：如果按照你這樣講是成立的，國家機密保護法根本沒有立法的必要！當初國家機密保護法為什麼要立法？臺灣是民主法治的國家，什麼是機密……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我跟您報告一下，我們在海外的委員在各個不同的國家大家有不同的處境，有些國家是單一國籍的，如果他已經成為當地的公民，他還仍然保有臺灣的國籍，或者他是擔任我們的僑務委員同時具這個身分的時候，他可能會被當地的政府追究，所以有時候事情我們不是可以這麼單純地思考。"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你講的是理由的部分，我現在跟你講的是你在編密件時有沒有法律授權基礎的部分。我要這樣講，今天即使你講的理由可以有討論的空間，但一樣要有法律的授權才可以編密件，這個是我在法律上面的理解，如果一個公務機關沒有法律授權的依據，他愛編密件就編密件，臺灣還是法治國家嗎？我們還有需要制定國家機密保護法嗎？就不用啦！"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我想我們討論的層級是不一樣的。"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你說的嘛！"],["主席：黃委員，注意一下時間，你現在問得比本委員會的還要久，本席站起來一段時間了。"],["黃委員國昌：不需要法律授權，行政機關自己就可以定喔？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，這個扯遠了。"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛這就是你說的啊！"],["徐委員長佳青：有些行政程序是我們可以做密件處理的，從過去到現在我們都是按照標準。"],["黃委員國昌：這個就是我跟你在……"],["徐委員長佳青：我沒有自己獨立創作，沒有、我沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：這個就是我跟你認知不一樣的地方，這就是我的認知……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員沒有擔任過行政職，你不了解這個作業。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以當過行政職的人就沒有法律授權的依據，自己要編密件就可以編密件？"],["徐委員長佳青：不是沒有法律授權，我們還是有一些行……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我就問你。"],["徐委員長佳青：我們的密件是，不公開就叫做密件，跟委員定義的密件邏輯是不一樣的，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：是，所以需不需要法律授權的依據？不用嘛？"],["徐委員長佳青：不是，我們兩位……"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛這個是你在備詢臺上面說的。"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，你討論的密件跟我講的密件是不同的定義邏輯。"],["主席：委員長請之後再跟黃委員說明。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。"],["主席：不然超過太多時間了。"],["徐委員長佳青：好，委員，你給我一個時間，我親自私下去跟你說明，好不好？"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請葉元之委員上臺質詢。葉元之、葉元之，葉元之委員不在。","接下來請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-3","speakers":["沈伯洋","徐巧芯","羅美玲","陳俊宇","王定宇","黃仁","林楚茵","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林憶君","張啓楷","黃國昌","馬文君"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00013"}}},{"id":"159230","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159230","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbd8476443e6093f00a4d8ee7d728f0553eba1aea0cf818e9176aa520af6b9da4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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有請吳主委請吳主委備質詢 謝謝吳委員好"},{"start":19.683,"end":45.388,"text":"主委好我在2021年也就是三年多前曾經質詢過當時的科技部國發會的前身那我那時候呢其實是有鑒於我們國科會或者是過去的科技部他是負責我們知識的管理學門的分類所以當時呢我有特別要求說"},{"start":46.528,"end":62.894,"text":"做一個原住民研究學門的評估那當時呢我很感謝因為有提到這個學門要增設原住民族研究作為次領域那我當時非常高興而且呢也有經過110年度複審會議討論的決議說要把法律學經濟學以及社會學三個學門呢要增設"},{"start":71.937,"end":87.253,"text":"原住民族研究的次領域我當時非常的高興我也有發臉書不過我不知道主委您知不知道時至今日我們原住民族研究有沒有真正被放入次領域報告委員這一點我還不是很清楚"},{"start":95.719,"end":123.348,"text":"跟委員報告就是說依照目前我們在人文處裡頭的各個學門裡頭事實上都有原名相關的研究主題以去年的研究為例分佈在各個學門的原名相關研究大概就有16件那這樣我知道了我要講的就是這件事當時我會這樣子做質詢就是因為看到原住民的研究領域只有被放在主題市"},{"start":124.548,"end":144.575,"text":"那就我所知就是這三年多來其實還是沒有雖然當時有做出決議也給我回覆但是還是沒有我知道的是你們仍舊用五千多萬的專案來替代所以我一開始我希望主委您還是要重視這個問題"},{"start":146.335,"end":162.85,"text":"因為這個跟我接下來要問的問題是有關係的我希望這個部分我還是重新的要來要求既然國科會是負責知識的管理 學門的分類那我不曉得說 主委在您的認知 什麼叫做知識體系我想這個很難定義"},{"start":174.517,"end":187.032,"text":"好那主委我跟您說我的看法是這樣因為這幾年有一個110到114的補助原住民知識體系你知道編列多少錢嗎五年編列18.6億您認為多還是不多"},{"start":195.43,"end":222.519,"text":"這個要看有多少研究的人是 因為我自己也不敢講多還是不多我們當然希望越多越好但是我不知道我們的成果到底有沒有等量奇觀但是我現在知道的是說我們的原住民族的研究啊既沒有學門作為次領域然後呢你們給予的這一些所謂的專案補助計畫國科會也沒有上位的一個概念"},{"start":223.513,"end":250.294,"text":"我就不懂 那原住民的知識體系到底要怎麼建構起來那現在我們的法源在原基法的第五條寫著中央原住民主管機關要會商 教育 科技 文化等主管機關來建構原住民族知識體系現在我們原住民的知識體系建構的情形主委 你有人跟你報告過嗎"},{"start":252.706,"end":255.65,"text":"還沒有 你看沒有嘛 我跟您說今天你們業務報告喔"},{"start":261.028,"end":281.108,"text":"02頁只有占第87頁占三分之一頁的篇幅就這樣而已整個計畫18.6億就這樣而已所以呢我要講的是說這個是有法源的也就去編列了這樣的一個法定預算經費好那現在我要問喔這邊有一個圖啊"},{"start":284.444,"end":311.423,"text":"有一個建構的圖說是排灣族的知識體系請問一下主委你看到這樣的一個圖你認為它是屬於什麼他說叫分類架構他把排灣族的知識體系分類成這樣下一頁你看這個喇喇族他也把他的知識你看建構成這樣那到底知識體系的建構要怎麼建構沒有人知道說不清楚"},{"start":313.437,"end":320.865,"text":"這麼重要的東西都說不清楚所以恐怕我要問進度跟成效諸位你應該也講不出來對不對因為沒有人跟你報告過"},{"start":322.228,"end":348.898,"text":"沒有嘛好那我跟您說其實你們是這樣子講的齁當時你們說要配合建構原住民知識體系說這個中長期計畫要分三個面向第一個叫知識建構第二個呢叫知識實踐第三個叫做雲端服務然後五年110到114今年是第五年18.6億要來做我知道的是"},{"start":350.554,"end":361.562,"text":"我們的原民會分配給國科會你們是要做雲端的服務那我真的不曉得說我該怎麼問下去你們到底執行了多少當時你們的經費佔比我來看好了這個是我們的那個概算表國科會的經費佔比是4.2億到底有沒有做我請我們處長好 謝謝處長是 報"},{"start":378.425,"end":399.92,"text":"報告委員就是剛剛最主要的那18億主要的預算可能是我們園民會那邊執行你們分配到4.2是在我們國科會這邊我們除了剛剛的這一個有一個專案每年是5800萬的這一個就是我們族群跟園民的特殊專案之外就是我們當年希望變次領域結果你們把它變成是專案補助5000多萬"},{"start":400.6,"end":413.087,"text":"喔不就是說它除了這個是專案補助之外剛剛跟委員報告每年有46件的那個執行案它不是在這個專案它是分布在各個那處長我懂了因為我下一頁就是要講這個我們看到這個知識體系中長城計畫當中"},{"start":418.85,"end":438.286,"text":"國科會這邊是說補助學生做一個原住民知識研究五年預計要補助八十件另外一個是補助學者推動原住民族的知識研究五年預計要補助兩百四十五件那再請教處長目前總共補助幾件"},{"start":440.147,"end":455.856,"text":"假如是以我們每年大概在各個學門有46件來看的話所以五年確實就是會有200多件那另外有關於學生的部分是我們補助大專生的研究計畫那這個部分的資料我們可能要再盤點一下"},{"start":457.256,"end":480.723,"text":"因為我看起來可能要到辦公室我們要來溝通討論一下因為我真的是不曉得說該要怎麼講你看這個文化知識體系的中長城計畫建制原住民族知識數位資料庫主辦是科技部那我想說目前的進度如何有跟原民會合作嗎"},{"start":482.591,"end":498.534,"text":"跟委員報告這是另外一個計畫就是說我們有請政大關大偉老師協助的這個資料庫大概每年是兩千六百萬左右那目前這個計畫也正在執行中所以這個是政大有來主辦"},{"start":499.847,"end":523.2,"text":"是我們請關老師協助的一個那請教您知不知道這一些跟現在園民會主辦的各個族群的原住民知識體系建構那個計畫它有一個連通性嗎我知道他們彼此都有互相的一個非常綿密的一個協調所以是互相撈計畫嗎照理說應該是你們撈到那邊的計畫要做雲端處理對不對"},{"start":528.206,"end":550.445,"text":"有做雲端處理嗎還是說政大做的那個計畫其實就跟現在東華大學他們分配給各個大學做的知識體系差不多應該以國科的角度在研究的部分後設分析的部分會比較多一點那中間應該會有綿密的一個交流那有成果報告出來嗎"},{"start":551.482,"end":577.544,"text":"每一年每一年都有成果的報告那長什麼樣子你知道嗎裡面寫什麼東西你知道嗎我曾經看過一個成果他要做一個泰雅族的課綱他四年用兩千多萬一年五百多萬成果報告繳出來那個課綱長的樣子就是幾頁而已"},{"start":581.397,"end":597.752,"text":"到底知識體系是什麼做出來到底長什麼現在AI的時代來臨了我也看到國科會你們有一個版本人工智慧基本法那現在我要講的是說現在這個基本功其實"},{"start":600.342,"end":612.21,"text":"連我們國科會都說不出來知識體系是什麼更何況怎麼做知識的分類那這個基本功都已經亂七八糟我可以這樣講嗎那如果導入AI怎麼辦呢看綠啊看綠啊"},{"start":615.341,"end":635.753,"text":"無論如何我覺得國科會責無旁貸就是要來負責這些所謂知識的一個盤點儲存跟管理那現在如果要導入雲端要結合AI那我就覺得更恐怖啦為什麼呢因為科技始終來自於人性更何況我們已經看到很多報告"},{"start":636.733,"end":665.728,"text":"AI也會複製再製歧視喔因為它收集到的各種全世界各地原住民的資料收集很少喔所以當我們只是這樣子去撈資料我們的知識體系只是搜尋這些文獻文獻裡面已經很多歧視的不正確錯誤的資料我們再拿來做索引做關鍵字做雲端資料我覺得這個是很可怕的一件事"},{"start":667.153,"end":687.978,"text":"所以在這個部分我真的是希望說我們國科會我們既然來主責我們知識的分類我希望這個分類建構國科會還是要拿出態度那因為今年已經是第五年那過去我們也沒有在預算上面多做刁難苛責"},{"start":689.958,"end":706.273,"text":"但是今年是第五年而且會影響到要不要有第二期因為這個叫中長期計劃我們覺得非常的堪憂所以這個部分我在這邊特別提醒也希望說我們國科會協同園民會針對"},{"start":708.336,"end":732.286,"text":"這幾年的一個援助民族知識體系的建構提供書面資料就是這五年的執行狀況希望能夠來到辦公室做一個說明我也不想看紙本資料我們親自來溝通說明好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席謝謝吳立豪委員剛剛質詢得太精彩了我不小心太早站起來不好意思那這個謝謝主委"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":410,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（10時58分）謝謝主席，有請吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委備詢。"],["吳主任委員誠文：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好。我在2021年，也就是三年多前曾經質詢過當時的科技部──國發會的前身，我那時候其實是有鑑於國科會或者是過去的科技部是負責知識的管理、學門的分類，所以當時我有特別要求做一個原住民研究學門的評估，當時我很感謝，因為有提到這個學門要增設原住民族研究作為次領域，我當時非常高興，而且也有經過110年度複審會議討論的決議，說要把法律學、經濟學以及社會學三個學門增設原住民族研究的次領域，我當時非常的高興，我也有發臉書。不過我不知道主委您知不知道，時至今日，我們原住民族研究有沒有真正被放入次領域？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，這一點我還不是很清楚。"],["黃處長俊儒：跟委員報告，依照目前人文處的各個學門裡頭，事實上都有原民的相關研究主題，以去年的研究為例，分布在各個學門的原民相關研究大概就有46件。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，這樣我知道了。我要講的就是這件事，當時我會這樣做質詢，就是因為看到原住民族的研究領域只有被放在「主題式」，就我所知，這三年多來其實還是沒有，雖然當時有做出決議，也給我回復，但還是沒有！我知道的是，你們仍舊用五千多萬的專案來替代，所以我希望主委還是要重視這個問題，因為這跟我接下來要問的問題是有關係的，這個部分我還是要重新來要求。","既然國科會是負責知識的管理、學門的分類，主委，我不曉得在您的認知當中，什麼叫做知識體系？"],["吳主任委員誠文：就是……我想這個很難定義啦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委，我跟您說，我的看法是這樣，因為有一個110年到114年補助原住民族知識體系的計畫，你知道編列多少錢嗎？5年編列18.6億！您認為多還是不多？"],["吳主任委員誠文：這個要看有多少研究人力啦！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是！因為我自己也不敢講多還是不多。我們當然希望越多越好，但是我不知道我們的成果到底有沒有等量齊觀。不過我現在知道的是，我們原住民族的研究既沒有學門做為次領域，然後你們給予的所謂專案補助計畫，國科會也沒有上位的概念，所以我就不懂，原住民族的知識體系到底要怎麼建構起來？現在法源在原基法，其中第五條寫著，中央原住民族主管機關要會商教育、科技、文化等主管機關來建構原住民族知識體系，有關現在我們原住民族知識體系的建構情形，主委，有人跟你報告過嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：還沒有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你看，沒有嘛！","我跟您說，今天你們業務報告內文總共102頁，只有第87頁有三分之一的篇幅和原住民族有關，就這樣而已！整個計畫18.6億，就這樣而已。所以我要講的是，這個是有法源的，也編列了這樣的法定預算、經費。那麼現在我要問，我現在出示一張建構的圖，說是排灣族的知識體系，請問一下主委，看到這樣一張圖，你認為它是屬於什麼？它說叫分類架構，把排灣族的知識體系分類成這樣。下一頁是Hla'alua（拉阿魯哇）族，它也把它的知識體系建構成這樣。請問到底知識體系的建構要怎麼建構？沒有人知道！說不清楚！這麼重要的東西都說不清楚！所以恐怕我要問進度和成效，主委應該也講不出來對不對？因為沒有人跟你報告過。","沒有嘛！好，我跟您說。其實你們是這樣子講的，當時你們說要配合建構原住民族知識體系，中長期計畫要分三個面向，第一個叫知識建構，第二個叫知識實踐，第三個叫做雲端服務，然後5年（110年至114年）要用18.6億來做，今年是第5年了。我知道的是，原民會分配給國科會的是要做雲端服務，那我真的不曉得我該怎麼問下去！你們到底執行了多少？根據概算表，當時國科會的經費占約4.2億，請問到底有沒有做？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我請我們處長來說明。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝處長。"],["黃處長俊儒：報告委員，剛剛說的最主要的那18億預算主要是由原民會那邊執行……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你們分配到4.2億。"],["黃處長俊儒：是，在我們國科會這邊，除了剛剛說的有一個每年5,800萬的族群跟原民的特殊專案之外……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：就是我們當年希望變次領域，結果你們把它變成專案補助五千多萬？"],["黃處長俊儒：喔，不，就是說它除了這個是專案補助之外，剛剛跟委員報告，每年有46件的執行案，它不是在這個專案裡面，而是分布在各個領域裡頭。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：處長，我懂了。因為我下一頁簡報就是要講這個。我們看到這個知識體系中長程計畫當中，國科會這邊是說補助學生做一個原住民族知識研究，5年預計要補助80件，另外一個是補助學者推動原住民族的知識研究，5年預計要補助245件，那麼再請教處長，目前總共補助幾件？"],["黃處長俊儒：假如是以我們每年大概在各個學門有46件來看的話，5年確實就是會有兩百多件。另外，有關學生的部分是我們補助大專生的研究計畫，這個部分的資料我們可能要再盤點一下，應該也是沒有問題的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，要盤點，我看可能要到本席辦公室來溝通、討論一下。"],["黃處長俊儒：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為我真的不曉得該怎麼講。你看，這個文化知識體系的中長程計畫說要建置原住民族知識數位資料庫，負責主辦的是科技部（現在的國科會），請問目前的進度如何？有跟原民會合作嗎？"],["黃處長俊儒：跟委員報告，這是另外一個計畫，我們有請政大官大偉老師協助這個資料庫，每年大概是2,600萬左右，目前這個計畫也正在執行中。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以這個是由政大主辦？"],["黃處長俊儒：是我們請官老師協助的一個……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那請教您知不知道，這些跟現在原民會主辦的各族群的原住民族知識體系建構計畫有連通性嗎？"],["黃處長俊儒：我知道他們彼此都有非常綿密的協調。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以是互相撈計畫嗎？照理說應該是你們撈到那邊的計畫來做雲端處理，對不對？有做雲端處理嗎？還是說政大做的那個計畫其實就跟現在東華大學、他們分配給各個大學做的知識體系差不多？"],["黃處長俊儒：以國科會的角度，應該是在研究的部分、後設分析的部分會比較多一點，中間應該會有綿密的交流。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：每年都有成果報告出來嗎？"],["黃處長俊儒：是，每一年都有成果報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：長什麼樣子？你知道嗎？裡面寫什麼東西？你知道嗎？"],["黃處長俊儒：這部分我們再跟委員報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我曾經看過一份成果報告，說是要做一個泰雅族的課綱，4年用兩千多萬，一年五百多萬喔！成果報告繳交出來，那個課綱長的樣子就是幾頁而已喔！所以到底知識體系是什麼？做出來到底長成什麼樣子？","現在AI的時代來臨了，我也看到國科會有一個「人工智慧基本法草案」的版本，我要講的是，現在這個基本功，連國科會都說不出來知識體系是什麼，更何況怎麼做知識的分類！這個基本功都已經亂七八糟！我可以這樣講嘛！如果導入AI，怎麼辦呢？堪慮啊！堪慮啊！","無論如何，我覺得國科會責無旁貸，就是要來負責這些所謂的知識盤點、儲存跟管理，現在如果要導入雲端，要結合AI，我就覺得更恐怖了！為什麼呢？因為科技始終來自人性，更何況我們已經看到很多報告，AI也會複製、再製歧視喔！因為它搜集到的世界各地原住民族的資料很少，所以當我們只是這樣子去撈資料，我們的知識體系只是搜尋這些文獻，而文獻裡面已經有很多歧視的、不正確的、錯誤的資料，我們再拿來做索引、做關鍵字、做雲端資料，我覺得這個是很可怕的一件事！所以針對這個部分，國科會既然主責知識的分類，我真的希望這個分類建構你們還是要拿出態度。","因為今年已經是第5年，過去我們也沒有在預算上面多做刁難、苛責，但是今年是第5年，而且會影響到要不要有第2期，因為這個叫中長程計畫，我們覺得非常堪憂，所以這個部分我在這邊特別提醒，也希望國科會協同原民會，針對這幾年原住民族知識體系的建構提供書面資料，就是這5年的執行狀況，希望能夠來到辦公室說明，我也不想看紙本資料，我們親自來溝通說明，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。剛剛質詢得太精彩，我不小心太早站起來了，不好意思。謝謝主委，請回座。","我們接著繼續進行質詢，有請我們立院的新血，也非常歡迎劉書彬委員的加入，我們有請劉書彬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}},{"id":"159229","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159229","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbdb5e6a6245cdcaae871e4a585984f629eba1aea0cf818e91e3ceebef6e54c8ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"10:51:12 - 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來 何秀圍委員長張委員早安早安 委員長 先講一下 你今年總議席增加多少總議席只有增加一億多"},{"start":22.442,"end":46.144,"text":"兩億五千七百五十四億啦不是 那個都是真兩億五千七百五十四萬一千塊錢這個要恭喜啦表示你第一個可能做得不錯第二個就是我們對我以為那個都是一個蘿蔔一個坑因為是學生的那個補助費做得不錯 業務量也在增加這對我們的僑胞是好的啦那你剛剛在擔心一個事情你在說凍結事情"},{"start":47.298,"end":65.175,"text":"我請問一下 僑委會從成立到現在有因為立法院凍結預算 導致你們知愛難省真的沒辦法做嗎有史以來喔 不是只有你這個不見喔有史以來 僑委會曾經因為立法院凍結了你們的預算導致你們業務推動上有困難嗎"},{"start":66.207,"end":83.324,"text":"跟委員報告這一次的凍結及刪除是我們近十年來最高的一次結果第一個你的親兒還是那麼多嘛我現在跟你講一個但是委員跟你報告我的業務增加了兩倍所以我預算才增加不到才兩億可是我的工作是增加兩倍"},{"start":84.105,"end":111.173,"text":"所以如果按照這個邏輯應該給我增加二十億才對可是我預算沒辦法一下增加這麼多你連到行政院主計處都不給你這麼多錢了所以我們這個基期是慢慢在加的可是才加一點點兩億我就被砍掉五千了對所以大家重視這個僑務這個是非常好的不過錢也不可能一下跳兩倍啦你業務量當然要一直在增加我現在再強調一個點今年的僑委會的預算是比去年增加了兩億多的第二個如果凍結"},{"start":113.954,"end":116.818,"text":"從歷年來為什麼有凍結凍結不是刪減啊刪減回不來凍結馬上就可以處理我從民國76年來跑立法委員這次的凍結之所以奇怪是因為他本來都在委員會可以處理我們就這樣子處理提書報沒有問題但今年有一些預算的凍結是要到院會"},{"start":134.433,"end":156.338,"text":"而且是報告後要經同意使得動資這個的話代表說我們在排案的時候時間會拖很久那我們該發包的東西我們會來不及去執行重點在這裡比方說我六七月要做殷予銀計畫了那我殷予銀計畫被凍結的這個額數如果不能在六月以前解凍那我這個要支付廠商我怎麼支付"},{"start":156.998,"end":174.303,"text":"馬上我七月底就辦完了所以這是我擔心的問題事實上送到院會去解凍這個在以前也有過啦你現在就趕快去要求你們的重點應該是每次的提案裡面都有他的暗流嘛對不對他到底做什麼事情你現在就應該準備好我已經準備好了我已經準備好了我現在要等他們的排案所以我就要問啊第一個你跟沈博洋關係好不好如果在委員會趕快排如果院會趕快去要求委員會的部分我不擔心我現在提一個點非常重要"},{"start":184.726,"end":197.016,"text":"歷年來被凍結預算後來沒有解凍的非常非常少我給大家看一個資料但是歷年來去到用會做解凍的也非常非常少"},{"start":198.044,"end":218.779,"text":"今年是非常特殊的一年不但額度很高而且是送院會去報告然後要經同意才使得動作其實來得及現在院會都已經開議了院會會耽誤你們的解凍嗎不是因為我們而已還有其他各部會大家一起排案的行商部會比我們多很多我們就會被犧牲排到最後面去"},{"start":219.66,"end":243.349,"text":"你為什麼一定會排到後面去我希望委員可以支持我們讓我們排在最前面可以定型啦不見得誰先誰後也不是說一個案子一個案子要花很多時間每個案子都要經同意所以要表決的你說同時上去嘛我現在提一個點非常重要歷年來光是民國94年凍結的這個比例今年凍結全部4.6%"},{"start":246.21,"end":252.213,"text":"2005年凍結多少12.71%欸凍結了2078億民國95年凍結了13.24%金額是2130億啊那時候每一年都可以如期的解凍啊今年為什麼不行所以不要再叫"},{"start":265.165,"end":272.068,"text":"委員那時候一樣是草小野大的狀態沒有錯但是當時的凍結有些東西是凍結在這個新興計劃裡面但是這一次我們很大的部分是一部車子性能很好可是呢沒有給我們足夠的油錢所以我們就只能開到之後就停止了我會盡力克服你應該是解決問題的人不是要一直在解釋問題而且立法院你趕快把相關的提案送到議員會如果是委員會你送一個損保養趕快排就解凍了"},{"start":295.437,"end":319.075,"text":"好的 謝謝委員不要一直在解釋問題現在裡面這個是不好的而且從以前的例子不管凍結的這個比例比你們多了三倍四倍都是解凍的趕快去解決問題我來談我看你今天這個報告裡面的第三頁是特別強調海外的這個橋台商企業長期在提升台灣全球競爭力上面扮演非常關鍵的角色接下來我們幫我們的橋台商來講講話"},{"start":323.766,"end":346.734,"text":"那總統沒有跟大家溝通 也沒有討論突然就宣布說把中國大陸定義為境外敵對勢力那你這邊衝擊應該就會很大了因為你這個僑胞裡面很多也是台商嘛 對不對很多台商 很多僑商的這個代表 領袖他可能同時在中國大陸那邊他也是一個台商組織的這個領袖嘛 對不對"},{"start":349.192,"end":352.035,"text":"那這個對你衝擊 你要怎麼去保障這些僑商跟委員報告 僑委會主管的權限範圍是不包含海峽兩岸三地這個是屬於陸委會的權責範圍我是在海峽兩岸三地之外的台商才是我們努力的目標所以這個權限範圍不一樣"},{"start":370.854,"end":385.619,"text":"好 所以委員長來我具體要求三個因為重疊性太高嘛所以要求第一個你對僑商團體還有僑民團體跟中國大陸台商團體身份有重疊的你要趕快去做這個統計所以我們過去五六年來已經這樣在做你目前手上有這個統計嗎"},{"start":388.86,"end":414.969,"text":"我們在應該講我們跟海基會有在尋求了解一些資料事實上這五年六年來從中國移出的台商到東南亞佈局的比例相當高這是一個事實那個委員長這要非常具體啦好不好你的這個僑民處僑商處跟僑生處今天都有疊嘛要趕快動起來這個要很明確的因應跟統計好不好好你多久可以給我這個資料一個禮拜"},{"start":416.687,"end":426.875,"text":"你們的手上應該要有啊重疊的部分有些我們要跟海基會跟陸委會去對一下要對一下要對一下因為他們以後進出中國大陸老實講風險就增高了其實不單單是在中國投資的台商風險高現在連我們在海外其他的那些美國公民的台商或者是日本公民的台商他們進到中國一樣有風險"},{"start":440.846,"end":450.476,"text":"那個風險就是因為中國的國安法通過以後他們可以不定期的沒有理由的把他拘留你把重疊人數統計出來給我第二個你要對他們造成什麼樣的一個衝擊跟風險評估做個評估給我好不好這個應該是陸委會的職責吧沒有啦你重疊部分啦對你的僑胞第三部分對僑民僑商跟僑生以後進出中國大陸"},{"start":463.462,"end":470.645,"text":"我相信這三個村應該都要動起來了吧這個我們都有都有在宣導 都請大家盡量減少去對 你做什麼樣的因應啦就是夠時你講的他們供 僑胞跟僑民對我們貢獻這麼大對不對那這是國家有新的這個措施了對於他們的風險跟這個怎麼樣去讓他們避險怎麼保護他們我們一起努力好不好好的 謝謝一個禮拜內把這個資料給我好不好好 謝謝張委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":508,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時51分）請委員長。"],["主席：有請委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：張委員早安。"],["張委員啓楷：早安！委員長，應該要恭喜你，你今年的總預算增加多少？"],["徐委員長佳青：只有增加一億多……"],["張委員啓楷：2億5,754億啦……"],["徐委員長佳青：不是，那個都是……"],["張委員啓楷：2億5,754萬1,000塊錢，這應該要恭喜啦！表示第一個你可能做得不錯；第二個，我們對僑委會……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，那個都是一個蘿蔔一個坑，因為是學生的補助費。"],["張委員啓楷：表示你做得不錯，業務量也在增加，這對我們的僑胞是好的。你剛剛在擔心一個事情，你談到凍結的事情，我請問一下，僑委會從成立到現在有因為立法院凍結預算，導致你們窒礙難行、真的沒辦法做嗎？有史以來喔！不是只有目前這次，有史以來，僑委會曾經因為立法院凍結你們的預算，導致你們業務推動上有困難嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，這一次的凍結及刪除是我們近10年來最高的一次。"],["張委員啓楷：結果第一個，你的金額還是那麼多。我現在跟你講一個狀況……"],["徐委員長佳青：但是委員跟你報告，我的業務增加了兩倍，我的預算才增加不到2億，可是我的工作是增加兩倍，如果按照這個邏輯，應該給我增加20億才對，可是我的預算沒辦法一下增加這麼多。"],["張委員啓楷：連行政院主計總處都不給你這麼多錢了，你還……"],["徐委員長佳青：不是，我們這個基期是慢慢在加的。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！你可以努力……"],["徐委員長佳青：可是才加一點點2億，就被砍掉5,000萬了。"],["張委員啓楷：所以大家重視僑務，這個是非常好的，不過錢也不可能一下跳兩倍，你的業務量當然要一直在增加。我現在再強調一個點，今年僑委會的預算比去年增加兩億多；第二個，如果凍結，歷年來為什麼有凍結？凍結不是刪減啊！刪減回不來，凍結馬上就可以處理。我從民國76年來跑立法院……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，這次的凍結之所以奇怪，是因為它本來都可以在委員會處理，我們就這樣子處理，提書報沒有問題，但今年有一些預算的凍結是要到院會，而且是報告後要經同意，始得動支，這個代表我們在排案的時候，時間會拖很久，我們該發包的東西會來不及去執行，重點在這裡。比方說6、7月要做英語營計畫，英語營計畫被凍結的額數，如果不能在6月以前解凍，要支付廠商的我怎麼支付？馬上7月底就辦完了，所以這是我擔心的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：事實上送到院會去解凍，這個在以前也有過啦！你現在就趕快去要求，你們的重點應該是每次的提案裡面都有它的案由，對不對？它到底做什麼事情？你現在就應該準備好。佳青，你現在應該準備好……"],["徐委員長佳青：我已經準備好了……"],["張委員啓楷：對，準備好了，趕快……"],["徐委員長佳青：我已經準備好了，我現在是等立法院的排案而已。"],["張委員啓楷：所以我就要問，第一個，你跟沈伯洋關係好不好？如果在委員會趕快排；如果在院會趕快去……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員會的部分我不擔心。"],["張委員啓楷：我現在提一個點非常重要，歷年來被凍結預算後沒有解凍的非常非常少，我給大家看一個資料，民國……"],["徐委員長佳青：但是委員，歷年來送到院會解凍的也非常非常少，今年是非常特殊的一年，不但額度很高，而且是送去院會報告，然後要經同意始得動支。"],["張委員啓楷：其實也來得及啊！現在院會都已經開議了，院會會耽誤你們的解凍嗎？我現在說……"],["徐委員長佳青：不是只有我們而已，還有其他各部會啊！大家一起排案的啊！"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！所以是……"],["徐委員長佳青：其他部會比我們多很多，我們就會被犧牲，排到最後面去啊！"],["張委員啓楷：你為什麼一定會排到後面去？而且……"],["徐委員長佳青：我希望委員可以支持我們，讓我們可以排在最前面。"],["張委員啓楷：可以並行啦，不見得誰先誰後，也不是說一個案子、一個案子要花很多時間，你同時……"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有，每個案子都要經同意，所以要表決的。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊，你就同時上去嘛，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我現在提一個點非常重要，歷年來，光是民國94年凍結的比例，今年凍結的比例是4.6%，2005年凍結多少？12.71%，凍結了2,078億，民國95年凍結了13.24%，金額是2,130億，那時候每一年都可以如期解凍，今年為什麼不行？所以不要再叫……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，那時候一樣是朝小野大的狀態沒有錯，但是當時的凍結，有些東西是凍結在新興計畫裡面，但這一次很大的部分是，如同一部車子性能很好，可是沒有給我們足夠的油錢，所以我們就只能開到一半就停止了……"],["張委員啓楷：佳青，你作為委員長……"],["徐委員長佳青：我會盡力克服。"],["張委員啓楷：你應該是解決問題的人，不是一直在解釋問題……"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有，我是在克服啊！"],["張委員啓楷：而且你應該趕快把相關的提案送到院會，如果是委員會，你送給沈伯洋趕快排，就解凍了，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：解決問題，不要一直在解釋問題、陷在裡面，這是不好的，而且從以前的例子，凍結的比例比你們現在多了3倍、4倍，後來都是解凍的，趕快去解決問題。","另外我要談的是，我看你今天報告第3頁特別強調，海外的僑臺商企業長期在提升臺灣全球競爭力上面扮演非常關鍵的角色。接下來來幫我們的僑臺商講講話，賴總統沒有跟大家溝通，也沒有討論，突然就宣布把中國大陸定義為境外敵對勢力，那你這邊的衝擊應該就會很大，因為僑胞裡面很多也是臺商，對不對？很多臺商、僑商的代表、領袖可能同時在中國大陸那邊，他也是臺商組織的領袖，這個部分對你們的衝擊上，你要怎麼去保障這些僑胞、僑商？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，僑委會主管的權限範圍不包含海峽兩岸三地，這是屬於陸委會的權責範圍，在海峽兩岸三地之外的臺商才是我們努力的目標，這個權限範圍不一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：所以委員長，我具體要求三個，因為重疊性太高，所以第一個要求，對於僑商團體、僑民團體及中國大陸臺商團體身分有重疊的，你要趕快去統計。"],["徐委員長佳青：所以我們過去五、六年來已經這樣在做了，就是……"],["張委員啓楷：你目前手上有這個統計嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：應該講我們跟海基會有在尋求、了解一些資料，事實上這五、六年來，從中國移出的臺商到東南亞布局的比例相當高，這是一個事實。"],["張委員啓楷：委員長，這要非常具體，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：是，好。"],["張委員啓楷：你們僑民處、僑商處跟僑生處今天有在嘛。"],["徐委員長佳青：有。"],["張委員啓楷：要趕快動起來，這要有很明確的因應跟統計，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["張委員啓楷：你多久可以給我這個資料？一個禮拜，你手上應該要有啊，重疊的部分，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：不是，有些我們要跟海基會及陸委會去對一下。"],["張委員啓楷：你要對一下，因為他們以後進出中國大陸，老實講風險就增高了。"],["徐委員長佳青：其實不單單是在中國投資的臺商風險高，現在連我們在海外其他如美國公民的臺商，或是日本公民的臺商，他們進到中國一樣有風險，那個風險就是因為中國的國安法通過以後，他們可以不定期、沒有理由地把他拘留，這個都是我們……"],["張委員啓楷：好，你把重疊人數統計出來給我。"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，對於他們造成什麼樣的衝擊跟風險評估，也做個評估給我，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：這應該是陸委會的職責吧！"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，重疊的部分，對於我們的僑胞。","第三部分，對僑民、僑商及僑生以後進出中國大陸的部分，我相信這三個處應該都要動起來了吧！"],["徐委員長佳青：我們都有在宣導，都請大家儘量減少去那裡。"],["張委員啓楷：對，包括你做怎麼樣的因應。"],["徐委員長佳青：好的。"],["張委員啓楷：就是落實你講的，僑胞跟僑民對我們的貢獻這麼大，這是國家有新的措施，對於他們的風險跟怎麼樣讓他們避險、怎麼保護他們，我們一起努力，好不好？一個禮拜內把這個資料給我，好不好？"],["徐委員長佳青：好的，謝謝張委員。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員，那就一個禮拜內把資料給張委員。","接下來請賴士葆委員上臺質詢。賴士葆、賴士葆，賴士葆委員不在。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員上臺質詢。徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩，徐欣瑩委員不在。","現在請黃國昌委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-3","speakers":["沈伯洋","徐巧芯","羅美玲","陳俊宇","王定宇","黃仁","林楚茵","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林憶君","張啓楷","黃國昌","馬文君"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00013"}}},{"id":"159228","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159228","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbfcbfe017f275b2e7a4d8ee7d728f0553ce1d26ba49c773cd303c495862b7e09b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:40:58 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有請吳主委吳主委 被質詢 謝謝林委員好主委好"},{"start":14.817,"end":41.636,"text":"賴總統在上個禮拜的公開談話中他有強調說為了強化國安與因應統戰威脅尤其是面對中國日益最嚴重的網路攻擊那相關的主管機關應採取積極的有效作為防止中國透過網路應用程式AI等工具對台灣進行認知作戰及危害的治安那"},{"start":42.376,"end":47.663,"text":"國科會作為我國推動這個科技發展的主管機關我想針對我國諸多的關鍵的基礎設施以及這個國家核心關鍵的技術我們應該要進行相對應的防務作業"},{"start":58.656,"end":78.094,"text":"並且跟速發部來合作推動資安的學術研究落實資安的跨域聯防除了可以防止中國竊取我國關鍵技術的機密當然也要防禦任何形式的資安威脅再來我們來看這則新聞法新社報導"},{"start":79.675,"end":95.402,"text":"俄國的假訊息陣大量的混入西方的AI系統那藉由各個大型的語言模型灌注大量支持克里姆尼宮的假資訊來扭曲這個聊天機器人產生的內容從而在全國散播這種驚惡的言論"},{"start":97.543,"end":117.275,"text":"那本席認為我們如果來看兩岸的資訊戰的狀況三部甲訊息影響AI這種狀況不可能不會發生而且極有可能已經相關的網路攻擊在進行所謂的污染台灣人民使用AI這種情形所以綜合以上的這個資訊 諸位"},{"start":119.036,"end":139.372,"text":"上個禮拜總統的談話是否已經收到要進行關鍵基礎設施加強防護還是說國家資安防禦總檢討的指示還是說又或者國科會已經在從事什麼樣的防禦工作另外有關我國要開發AI的"},{"start":143.095,"end":149.229,"text":"對話模型 TIDE那是否有機制來防堵假訊息去影響這個 TIDE 的產出 主委"},{"start":151.158,"end":177.319,"text":"我們現在其實有在鼓勵我們的學界在研發相關的這個技術希望能夠用AI來提升我們的這個治安的能力那對於這個防堵假訊息去辨識跟防堵這部分其實國科會跟數碼部也會密切的合作相關的這個預算編列我們也會協助那未來這個AI的研究我們希望從目前台德是以國科會為主"},{"start":179.881,"end":201.054,"text":"我們今年的台德計畫放到國網中心我們的重點就是要建立平台讓各式各樣的應用能夠基於我們台德所建立的基礎能夠發展出來接下來我們希望把模型的研究的主力能夠擴散到學界到產業界"},{"start":203.075,"end":221.409,"text":"以及到這個中央研究院能夠擴散開來讓它能夠加速那剛剛委員提到的這個包含國家安全相關的我們在機器人在低軌衛星在無人機我們也都投入相對的這個資源也在加速的發展好"},{"start":222.931,"end":227.277,"text":"再來我想跟你談一談我們的科技預算因為上個會期總預算的審查之亂許多部會關鍵預算遭到藍白兩黨無差別的動感"},{"start":238.291,"end":263.156,"text":"那我想國科會有回覆本辦公室說通案刪減的預算將影響以投入佈局的一些基礎科研跟精創人工智慧等等那至於二十案的凍結案那也將會推遲我國科研在世界版圖的搶先佈局那可能導致我國科技會落後一些競爭國家"},{"start":264.896,"end":272.965,"text":"那產業及科技的人才斷層還有不利產業轉型並造成經濟衰退的風險那本席針對這個預算的影響主要進行幾點的關心首先我國現在的半導體跟"},{"start":282.054,"end":294.506,"text":"晶片的產業如何受到預算通商的影響那是不是會使主委你宣示的AI產業化產業AI化會受到推遲 主委"},{"start":295.441,"end":316.814,"text":"今年我們的預算剛剛其實召委有補充說到我們這個決算數就立法院審完這個決算數跟去年相比大約增加了100億但是這個100億就是在我們新體的還有像太空科技等等很多地方是非常重要大家也都知道是必須要提升"},{"start":317.774,"end":331.839,"text":"那我們也非常感謝教文委員會所有的委員的支持沒有砍更多啦但是剛剛委員提到說財化法是我比較憂心的因為"},{"start":333.099,"end":356.905,"text":"財務法如果執行的話,那將來其實我也覺得行政院可能會非常的為難如果要保障國防預算,那是不是要保障科技預算可是我們的衛福預算,我們的長照也是迫切需要錢那我們的這個資安的部分,速發部經費也是被大砍"},{"start":358.645,"end":378.715,"text":"那將來在財務法的修正的狀況之下幾乎沒有一個部會它可以說不受影響這是其實對行政來講是非常為難那國科會也很難在這種狀況之下說希望政府其他的東西就盡量砍不要砍我的科技預算我也很難這樣去"},{"start":379.815,"end":399.714,"text":"去幫我們整個這個學界來捍衛這樣的預算所以我還是期待我們的財務法修正案能夠有機會能夠調整調整回我們原來規劃的對 因為主委還蠻重要的是因為科技的研發跟應用其實是需要大量跟外國交流的領域"},{"start":400.515,"end":425.172,"text":"那我們也可以看到國科會其實我們幾乎每個月都有派團去跟外國的單位進行交流那藉由交流來提升我們彼此的科學研發技術可是在業務費遭到這個所謂的統三之後那是否這個會降低我們跟外國交流的頻率那導致我們台灣的科研在國際上沒有辦法佔有一席之地這部分你不擔憂嗎還是有什麼因應之道"},{"start":429.511,"end":449.321,"text":"我們當然是擔憂啦但是相對來講在國科會被刪減的幅度沒有那麼大狀況之下我們會盡量用邀請國外的合作對象到台灣來的方式來支應這一部分的需求"},{"start":451.016,"end":453.378,"text":"談到國外的交流 剛剛您回答秀寶委員的部分捷克我們本來要佈局一個精創核基地現在改成研究導向"},{"start":465.652,"end":481.358,"text":"那我請教主委這個政策的調整的利益在哪裡那我們希望達到什麼樣的成效那同時自從這個研究辦公室啟用開始之後那目前到底執行上有展現什麼樣的成果這部分是不是請主委說明一下"},{"start":481.878,"end":495.854,"text":"我剛剛有說明說我們原來那個辦公室成立是以台灣的這個教學的人力去支援友好國家在半導體的這個教育但是台灣的人力資源已經非常不足所以其實是沒有能力"},{"start":496.755,"end":514.853,"text":"去支援很多的國家協助他們在這方面的教育而且呢其實半導體的領域的這個教育也不是說這些國家他們不能做他們的目標其實只是想要鏈接台灣的製造的能力所以以這一點來講我就修正了我們的這個政策的做法"},{"start":515.833,"end":540.892,"text":"那我們的半導體的這個製造佈局在美國在歐洲歐洲就是現在是德國在日本其實是在協助當地能夠把他們的這個製造能力再提升上來但是這個過程當中我們也希望能夠對我們有利對我們有利的方法就是說一方面協助我們的廠商在當地能夠有更多的人力的資源可以使用第二個就是說希望"},{"start":542.374,"end":564.348,"text":"技術水準的提升不是只有在台灣閉門造區透過因為台積電的關係我們可以跟這些國家來合作做先進製程相關技術的研究前瞻的研究也可以提升我們自己的技術當我們未來在台灣在建立我們的先進製程的發展的時候會更為有利所以我就調整了這樣的策略"},{"start":565.729,"end":568.87,"text":"傑克理工大學副校長在中央社的專訪中特別提到雙邊合作面臨挑戰包括資金模式建立、研究項目選擇、如何平衡學術與產業需求等等請問他為什麼會提出這些問題?"},{"start":587.277,"end":591.861,"text":"他們當然是希望說台灣能夠付出多一點那我們的確有編列相關的預算這個問題現在其實已經解決了也就是說他現在其實很滿意如果現在去問他他應該很滿意了"},{"start":602.029,"end":628.427,"text":"另外最後請教主委本席有看到我們國科會對於台灣原住民的研究有投入相當的程度也補助很多的研究涵蓋人文 自然跟生科的領域但是有關於原住民知識體系保存的運作其實我們可以多加利用數位保存的工法所以請教主委能夠加強台灣原住民各種知識體系的數位保存嗎"},{"start":632.829,"end":652.72,"text":"好,謝謝林委員,我覺得這個想法很好,那我願意支持,如果說我們原住民的學界或者是我們一般學界的學者願意來研究,來支持這個原住民的文物的保存利用這個數位化,用AI來做這個整理,來做資料的保存跟應用,我們都會非常支持"},{"start":653.08,"end":671.05,"text":"好 那也要拜託主委我自己的選區有新化有西拉雅的聚落所以西拉雅族群也想請您替我發聲替西拉雅發聲就是說做這個研究的時候是不是也投入平埔族原住民的研究"},{"start":671.91,"end":681.577,"text":"好,謝謝林委員,這一點我們會把他納進來,應該沒問題好,謝謝主委謝謝林委員謝謝林警召委,謝謝吳主委請回座,我想接下來我們就休息五分鐘,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":374,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時41分）謝謝主席，有請吳主委。"],["主席：請主委備詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：林委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：主委好。賴總統在上個禮拜的公開談話中，他有強調，為了強化國安與因應統戰威脅，尤其是面對中國日益嚴重的網路攻擊，相關主管機關應採取積極的有效作為，防止中國透過網路應用程式、AI等工具對臺灣進行認知作戰及危害資安。國科會作為我國推動科技發展的主管機關，針對我國諸多關鍵基礎設施，以及國家核心關鍵技術，我們應該要進行相對應的防護作業，並且跟數發部合作推動資安的學術研究，落實資安的跨域聯防，除了可以防止中國竊取我國關鍵技術的機密，當然也要防禦任何形式的資安威脅。","再來我們來看這則新聞，法新社報導，俄國的假訊息正大量混入西方AI系統，藉由各個大型語言模型灌注大量支持克里姆林宮的假資訊，扭曲聊天機器人產生的內容，從而在全國散播親俄的言論。本席認為，我們如果來看兩岸資訊戰的狀況，散布假訊息影響AI這種狀況不可能不會發生，而且極有可能已經相關的網路攻擊在進行所謂的污染臺灣人民使用AI的這種情形，所以綜合以上這個資訊，主委，上個禮拜總統的談話，是否已經收到要進行關鍵基礎設施加強防護？還是說國家資安防禦總檢討指示？又或者國科會已經在從事什麼樣的防禦工作？另外，有關於我國要開發AI的對話模型TAIDE，是否有機制來防堵假訊息去影響TAIDE的產出？主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們現在其實有在鼓勵學界研發相關技術，希望能夠用AI提升我們資安的能力，對於假訊息的辨識跟防堵這部分，其實國科會跟數發部也會密切合作，相關的預算編列我們也會協助。未來AI的研究，目前TAIDE是以國科會為主……"],["林委員宜瑾：對。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們今年的TAIDE計畫放到國網中心，我們的重點就是要建立平臺，讓各式各樣的應用能夠基於TAIDE所建立起來的基礎發展出來。然後接下來，我們希望把這個模型研究的主力能夠擴散到學界、到產業界，以及到中央研究院，能夠擴散開來，讓它能夠加速。剛剛委員提到包含國家安全相關的，我們在機器人、在低軌衛星、在無人機，我們也都投入相對的資源，也在加速的發展。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。再來我想跟你談一談我們的科技預算，因為上個會期總預算的審查之亂，許多部會關鍵預算遭到藍白兩黨無差別的凍砍，我想國科會有回復本辦公室說，通案刪減的預算將影響已投入布局的一些基礎科研跟晶創、人工智慧等等。至於20案的凍結案也將會推遲我國科研在世界版圖的搶先布局，可能導致我國科技會落後一些競爭國家，產業及科技的人才斷層，還有不利產業轉型，並造成經濟衰退的風險。本席針對預算的影響，主要進行幾點的關心，首先，我國現在的半導體跟晶片產業如何受到預算通刪的影響？是不是會使主委你宣示的AI產業化、產業AI化受到推遲？主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：今年我們的預算，剛剛其實召委有補充說到，我們的決算數，就是立法院審完的決算數，跟去年相比大約增加了100億，但是這個100億在我們新提的，還有像太空科技等等，很多地方是非常重要，大家也都知道是必須要提升。"],["林委員宜瑾：是。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們也非常感謝教文委員會所有委員的支持，沒有砍更多，但是剛剛委員提到，財劃法是我比較憂心的，因為財劃法如果執行的話，其實我也覺得行政院可能會非常為難，如果要保障國防預算，是不是要保障科技預算？可是我們的衛福預算、我們的長照，也是迫切需要錢，那我們資安的部分，數發部的經費也是被大砍。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。"],["吳主任委員誠文：將來在財劃法修正的狀況之下，幾乎沒有一個部會可以說不受影響，這其實對行政院來講是非常為難，國科會也很難在這種狀況之下，希望政府其他東西就儘量砍，不要砍我的科技預算，我也很難這樣去幫我們整個學界來捍衛這樣的預算，所以我還是期待我們的財劃法修正案能夠有機會調整，調整回我們原來規劃的這個狀況。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。還滿重要的是，因為科技的研發跟應用其實是需要大量跟外國交流的領域，我們也可以看到國科會幾乎每個月都有派團去跟外國的單位進行交流，藉由交流來提升我們彼此的科學研發技術，可是在業務費遭到所謂的統刪之後，是否會降低我們跟外國交流的頻率，導致我們臺灣的科研在國際上沒有辦法占有一席之地？這部分你不擔憂嗎？還是有什麼因應之道？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們當然是擔憂啦！但是相對來講，在國科會被刪減的幅度沒有那麼大的狀況之下，我們會儘量用邀請國外合作對象到臺灣來的方式支應這部分的需求。"],["林委員宜瑾：談到國外的交流，剛剛您回答秀寳委員的部分，就是我們在捷克本來要布局一個晶創的基地，現在改成研究導向。"],["吳主任委員誠文：研究導向。"],["林委員宜瑾：我請教主委，這個政策調整的立意在哪裡？我們希望達到什麼樣的成效？自從這個研究辦公室啟用、開始之後，目前到底執行上有展現什麼樣的成果？這部分是不是請主委說明一下？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我剛剛有說明，我們原來那個辦公室成立是以臺灣的教學人力去支援友好國家在半導體的教育，但是臺灣的人力資源已經非常不足，所以其實是沒有能力去支援很多的國家，協助他們做他們的教育。其實半導體領域的教育也不是這些國家他們不能做，他們的目標其實只是想要鏈結臺灣的製造能力，所以，以這一點來講，我就修正了我們的政策作法。我們的半導體的製造布局在美國、在歐洲（現在是德國）、在日本，其實是在協助當地能夠把他們的製造能力再提升上來，但是這個過程當中我們也希望能夠對我們有利，對我們有利的方法就是一方面協助我們的廠商在當地能夠有更多人力資源可以使用，第二個就是希望技術水準的提升不是只有在臺灣閉門造車，透過因為台積電的關係，我們可以跟這些國家合作做先進製程相關技術的研究、前瞻的研究，也可以提升我們自己的技術，當我們未來在臺灣建立我們的先進製程發展的時候會更為有利，所以我就調整了這樣的策略。"],["林委員宜瑾：了解。可是如果我們看捷克理工大學副校長在中央社的專訪中有特別提到，他說雙邊的合作仍面臨一些挑戰，包括資金模式的建立、研究項目的選擇，跟如何平衡學術跟產業的需求等等，請問他為什麼會提出這些問題？"],["吳主任委員誠文：他們當然是希望臺灣能夠付出多一點，我們的確有編列相關的預算，這個問題現在其實已經解決了，也就是說，他現在很滿意，如果現在去問他，他應該很滿意了。"],["林委員宜瑾：了解。最後請教主委，本席有看到國科會對於臺灣原住民的研究投入相當程度，也補助很多的研究，涵蓋人文、自然跟生科的領域，但是有關於原住民知識體系保存的運作，其實我們可以多加利用數位保存的工法，所以請教主委，能夠加強臺灣原住民各種知識體系的數位保存嗎？有沒有辦法我們善用AI的技術去進行？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝林委員。我覺得這個想法很好，我願意支持，如果原住民學界或者一般學界的學者願意研究，來支持原住民的文物保存，利用數位化、用AI整理，做資料的保存跟應用，我們都會非常支持。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。也要拜託主委，我自己的選區新化有西拉雅的聚落，所以西拉雅族群也想請您替西拉雅發聲，就是做這個研究的時候，是不是也投入平埔族原住民的研究？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝林委員，這一點我們會把它納進來，人文處應該沒問題吧？"],["黃處長俊儒：是，我們都有相關的……"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝主委，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝林委員。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾召委，謝謝吳主委，請回座。","我想接下來我們就休息5分鐘，謝謝。","休息（10時52分）","繼續開會（10時58分）"],["主席：接著繼續進行質詢。","請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}},{"id":"159227","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159227","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb1f11713d7fe7ab1c871e4a585984f629ce1d26ba49c773cd42429a604935b5345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"10:39:43 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好"},{"start":468.49,"end":471.512,"text":"謝謝那委員長我再問一下就是面對中國對台灣甚至對全球採取軟性的文化統戰這個是越來越明顯了甚至打壓台灣在國際的生存的空間然後現在我本席我剛剛今天看了你們的業務報告的第四頁第二點中國運用春節活動展開文化統戰"},{"start":489.245,"end":495.507,"text":"近年來中國國僑辦贈送新春暖心包還有一些 贈送一些特別的小物給海外的僑胞還有中國使領館的人員也會在春節的時候拜會了傳統的僑社還有並致贈春節的禮金那我想要請教委員長一下就是像你們剛剛自己列的這些目標應該是不是要更積極地掌握各種同戰的情資呢還有我們都會怎麼樣去提醒"},{"start":518.116,"end":523.581,"text":"僑團可能會被中共操作成為統戰宣傳的樣本還有怎麼樣面對中共在海外無所不用其極的金錢還有人情的攻勢有沒有更積極還有更有效的因應措施因為我剛才看了這整篇之後我覺得這些做法都是偏於一般的傳統的交流還有應對似乎都是沒有那麼積極"},{"start":540.656,"end":560.276,"text":"我們在外都有做第一線的佈局所以我們第一線的同仁跟我們外交單位的人也都會密切去關注跟收集這些情資一旦有一些動作出現我們後面都會跟進來做相關的處理那當然近年因為中共對於全球的統戰跟滲透是"},{"start":562.458,"end":575.226,"text":"持續的嚴峻加強所以有些像加拿大或美國歐洲國家已經都祭出一些法律就是外國代理人法在進行調查所以如果有再更進一步的情勢狀況我們也會請我們僑民去做跟當地的執法單位提醒通報"},{"start":582.85,"end":600.944,"text":"那如果是有涉我的部分我們也會努力的來跟僑團去做溝通因為這兩年確實有一些中共代理人被抓跟起訴那這也形成某種這個親中的僑團有稍微比較這個"},{"start":604.907,"end":622.06,"text":"應該說變低調轉趨低調那傳統橋社大家也都是在地資訊都有收集到所以大家對於跟中共方面中領館、使領館的這些互動往來都會刻意的想要保持一些距離不過他們確實是有強化要"},{"start":624.662,"end":633.688,"text":"提更多的好處給這些傳統僑社不過我們也在後面都有密切的在溝通跟觀察避免這種往來的金錢遊戲持續的加碼我們不跟他玩這種遊戲的我現在只是想說提醒僑委會就是我們不要跟外交部一樣現在我們台灣的邦交國已經被中共拉攏剩下12個國家了現在還無人為力所以我希望說僑委會這邊我們可以凝聚台灣人的愛國心和向心力讓台灣在國際有生存的空間不要再受到中共的打壓"},{"start":654.222,"end":655.197,"text":"好的謝謝林委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":470,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（10時39分）有請委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：林委員，你好。"],["林委員憶君：委員長好。0403花蓮地震之後，其實本席一直都想要振興花東災後的觀光產業，對此我相當的憂心，所以也一直在努力協助。我有一些問題想要請教委員長。請問委員長，僑委會目前針對僑胞回臺觀光旅遊是不是有一個「i僑卡」？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們的「i僑卡」並不是單純為了僑胞的返國旅遊，比較早以前，從2017年開始，那時候「i僑卡」叫作認同卡，僑胞認同卡當時的功能性比較不是只有在精神層面，比較不是實務層面，但是到了2021年我們開始把它從實體卡轉為數位卡，之後我們就開始大量增加各種功能性的提升，包括增加所謂的優惠措施，也就是有特約商店，現在國內和海外的特約商店有超過4,000家。"],["林委員憶君：我再請教一下，目前「i僑卡」在花蓮和臺東的特約商店各有多少家，請問委員長知道嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：應該這樣講，整個東臺灣的家數目前大概有將近100家，花蓮64家、臺東31家，如果加上宜蘭的話大概有150家。"],["林委員憶君：但是我這邊的資料看起來花蓮只有27家，臺東只有20家。我再請問一下，這些店家要如何申請才可以成為「i僑卡」的特約商店呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：在我們的網站上就有加入特約商店的一些SOP作業，如果它有興趣加入，我們就會發給它一個標章貼紙，這個貼紙可以貼在它自己的店門口，我們也會把它納入我們的網站，同時我們也會去巡查，看看它要提供什麼樣的優惠措施，等於我們再多幫它增加一條管道去行銷，有些僑胞回來的時候總是想要買一些伴手禮、小禮品或者是食品帶出去，這個部分有「i僑卡」的運用會多少增加一些幫助，打九五折、九折等等或者送什麼產品，這個都會有一定的幫助，所以我們歡迎花東地區的店家能夠增加。"],["林委員憶君：我看到花蓮大部分是以觀光為主，「i僑卡」如果是像我剛才所說的27家太少，你們就要找出是什麼樣的問題，是不是主動申請的店家太少呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，27家可能是舊的資料，我們最新的是64家了。"],["林委員憶君：但是64家還是少，所以是主動申請的少，還是因為審核都沒有辦法通過呢？"],["徐委員長佳青：基本上，他們是可以主動來跟我們申請的，而且我們審核的標準也都不會太高，所以幾乎沒有拒絕的，除非它不能提供任何優惠，它如果不提供任何優惠當然就沒辦法參加我們「i僑卡」的特約商店。"],["林委員憶君：累計到現在花蓮和臺東提出申請「i僑卡」特約商店的數量有多少，到時候以書面……"],["徐委員長佳青：目前是95家，花蓮64家……"],["林委員憶君：通過的是60家就對了？"],["徐委員長佳青：不是，已經通過的就有95家，在花蓮是64家，在臺東是31家，如果再加上宜蘭的話就更多，有一百多家，我們歡迎所有花蓮的店家，我想東部地區可能比較少店家知道我們有「i僑卡」。"],["林委員憶君：可能你就要宣傳，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：因為我們通常是對外宣傳，比較少對國內宣傳，不過國內的知名企業都知道要來加入我們這個系統，像義美、阿瘦皮鞋、新東陽等這些知名企業，其實我們也有主動去跟他們洽談，他們的chain都很願意加入我們這個系統。"],["林委員憶君：我現在還有看到僑委會113年也跟34家旅行業者合作，規劃全臺各地的人文特色和觀光亮點，總共有162條旅遊路線，但是我仔細看了一下，去年僑委會雖然有補助162條路線，但是實際上花東地區有關這樣的路線只有10條而已，占不到兩成，委員長，你覺得這樣是不是很偏心呢？是不是太少了？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們沒有偏心，因為這些路線都是業者自行規劃提出的，而且去年我們還特別針對花東區，在0403大地震以後，為了鼓勵僑胞可以繼續到花東地區旅遊，我們把補助金額從3,000元提高到3,600元，其他區都維持3,000元，只有花東我們再多增加600元，可是因為去年的狀況還不是很好，即便多600塊的補助，誘因不是那麼強。"],["林委員憶君：委員長，你有沒有想過為什麼會成效不佳？像剛才我們講到最後就是成效不佳，是不是我們應該讓僑胞有比較多選擇的項目去加強呢？就像是讓店家都來申請。"],["徐委員長佳青：是、是！"],["林委員憶君：還是說我們規劃的路線太少了呢？只有10條啊！這個誘因不高，所以大家就不會想要去花蓮。"],["徐委員長佳青：我想路線的多少不是重點，主要去年的結構是花東地區的地震還是很頻繁，還有就是交通的需求，這個都會影響到僑胞他們回來的旅遊意願，畢竟僑胞回來時間有限，所以他一定要妥善地去安排，花東如果臨時有什麼取消班次或者是取消車班的情況，他們就會擔心，因此，這個也會降低一些意願。我們會持續照委員的建議來強化，多提高我們在花東區的特約商店。今年照道理，因為0403地震告一段落，我們是不是要持續補助？我也同意委員要鼓勵花東旅遊，所以今年10月份的慶典當中，我們對於僑胞的旅行，仍然願意給花東區比較高的補助額。"],["林委員憶君：因為現在已經3月份，再過半年雙十國慶就要來了，到時候會有大量的僑胞回臺，所以僑委會現在要如何改善還有推廣，增加僑胞到花東觀光旅遊的誘因，這個可以積極地透過一些管道，宣傳回國旅遊的時候，藉由僑團還是僑委會的官方網站……"],["徐委員長佳青：不過，我跟委員再補充一點，僑界也跟我們反映，這也不單只針對花蓮、臺東而已，他們也到全世界各地去，對臺灣的旅遊他們都有興趣，但他們覺得臺灣的住房費用偏高，這件事情也是他們會覺得不想多去的一個原因，所以我們怎麼樣提高品質跟價格可以達到合理的狀態。"],["林委員憶君：我知道，因為僑委會的本業本來就不主管觀光業務。"],["徐委員長佳青：是！"],["林委員憶君：但畢竟政府團隊是一起的嘛！"],["徐委員長佳青：我們都會配合政府的政策。"],["林委員憶君：對啊，為了全臺灣的人好，當然是要怎麼樣促進大家經濟的發展，對不對？我想僑委會也要用心一點。"],["徐委員長佳青：是、是，我們也會在我們的網站上多幫忙行銷花東地區的觀光。"],["林委員憶君：OK，謝謝。委員長，我再問一下，中國對臺灣甚至對全球採取軟性的文化統戰，這個越來越明顯，甚至打壓臺灣在國際生存的空間。本席今天看了你們的業務報告第4頁第二點，中國運用春節活動展開文化統戰，近年來，中國國僑辦贈送「新春暖心包」，還有贈送一些特別的小物給海外僑胞，還有中國使領館人員也會在春節的時候，拜會傳統僑社並致贈春節禮金。我想要請教委員長一下，像你們剛才自己列的這些目標，是不是應該要更積極地掌握各種統戰的情資呢？還有僑委會會怎麼樣去提醒僑團，可能會被中共操作，成為統戰宣傳的樣本，還有怎麼樣面對中共在海外無所不用其極的金錢及人情攻勢？有沒有更積極還有更有效的因應措施？因為我剛才看了這整篇之後，我覺得這些作法都是偏於一般、傳統的交流、應對，似乎都沒有那麼積極。"],["徐委員長佳青：我們在外都有做第一線的布局，所以我們第一線同仁跟外交單位的人也都會密切關注跟蒐集這些情資，一旦有一些動作出現，我們後面都會跟進並做相關的處理。當然近年來因為中共對於全球統戰跟滲透持續地嚴峻、加強，像加拿大或美國、歐洲國家已經都祭出一些法律，就是外國代理人法在進行調查，如果有更進一步的情勢、狀況，我們也會請僑民跟當地的執法單位提醒、通報；如果有涉我的部分，我們也會努力跟僑團做溝通。因為這兩年確實有一些中共代理人被抓跟起訴，這也形成某種親中的僑團轉趨低調，傳統僑社也對在地資訊都有蒐集到，所以大家對於跟中共方面、中領館、使領館的互動往來，都會刻意地想要保持一些距離。不過，他們確實是有強化，想要提更多的好處給這些傳統僑社，我們在後面也都有密切地溝通跟觀察，避免這種往來的金錢遊戲持續地加碼，我們不跟他玩這種遊戲的。"],["林委員憶君：我們現在只是想提醒僑委會，我們不要跟外交部一樣，現在臺灣的邦交國已經被中共拉攏，剩下12個國家了，現在還無能為力，所以我希望僑委會可以凝聚臺灣人的愛國心和向心力，讓臺灣在國際有生存空間，不要再受到中共打壓。"],["徐委員長佳青：好！好的，謝謝林委員。"],["林委員憶君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","現在請鍾佳濱委員上臺質詢。鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","現在有請張啓楷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-3","speakers":["沈伯洋","徐巧芯","羅美玲","陳俊宇","王定宇","黃仁","林楚茵","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林憶君","張啓楷","黃國昌","馬文君"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00013"}}},{"id":"159226","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159226","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503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主委到底是要由工程會來提解動案還是由行政院來提解但我想這是行政部門的問題啦這是你們內部可能行政院自己各部會之間要怎麼協調我想這是行政院端的問題那我想對立法院來講"},{"start":126.507,"end":151.704,"text":"前面當然刪除預算凍結預算行政立法院具有主動權但現在我想最大問題是提解凍案的主動權應該在貴院就是行政院的各行政部門提解凍案你要先進來我們才能夠去討論說怎麼樣進行後續程序要先經過委員會再送到院會還是你們可以直接提報告案到院會裡面去解凍這當然是後續的討論但現在最大問題什麼我要跟這個"},{"start":152.825,"end":173.518,"text":"我主委也提醒一下如果你們去開行政院會的時候也要跟你們院長提醒一下現在問題是因為這個所謂的一四年的總預算到目前為止還沒有公告啦啊你沒有公告你當然沒有辦法去進行後面的這個流程嘛所以我們今天期待說今天提出來大家都針對數字針對程序來討論那本席在這邊要提的一個建議是說如果"},{"start":174.218,"end":185.263,"text":"要快的話其實應該是你們要先公告公告完我們才能去針對這個案子還有後面的不管是提解東岸也還提什麼樣東西因為現在這個東西現在未定嘛"},{"start":187.659,"end":205.58,"text":"前面要提復議所以到了上週才復議才結束復議才結束那現在還沒有公告我公告後你們才有所謂的主動權就行政單位才有主動權提出來我們在解凍預算這三個我想立法院相對來講是被動的啦"},{"start":206.781,"end":220.434,"text":"那我也相信這個主委我想你做事情也非常的明快也非常的這個直接啦我想也不用對自己這麼沒信心像提到說比如說這個金質獎也好或是像各項的業務也好大家就為什麼要取其凍結案不是刪除凍結最"},{"start":222.176,"end":243.664,"text":"最務實的做法 大家都很清楚 當委員都很清楚知道說 凍結案是希望說好好的報告 好好的說明說我這筆錢要做什麼 比如說您現在講說這個金質獎 因為凍結案 我接下來共產會今年要做金質獎的預算所以我需要這些錢 然後我想基於零基預算精神立法院聽了 委員們都覺得沒問題 當然就會給你們通過"},{"start":245.845,"end":260.86,"text":"主委應該不用這麼沒有自信說他錢不知道在哪裡我想你只要好好的解釋好好的說明這個凍結他既然是凍結而已他不是刪除就表示說大家只是對業務內容不熟悉不了解希望有報告然後就好處理了嘛主委怎麼看"},{"start":261.991,"end":284.905,"text":"報告委員關鍵就是說還要同意後市的動之同意不同意並不知道那這一部分如果如果是在委會處理因為既兩院互相制衡互相尊重那過去都行李如宜在委員會要刪要動都可以因為這次在院會比較特別所以讓我們想起說那立法院"},{"start":286.178,"end":309.167,"text":"去凍結行政院的預算而不是刪減這件事情到底有沒有違法之餘因為如果說我們這個預算是凍結比方這個預算防疫預算如果發生了疫情武漢肺炎COVID-19疫情發生了使得凍結那這是合法的如果說你要我同意要立法院同意你才能用那這是行政權"},{"start":310.601,"end":335.247,"text":"所以這部分是有疑慮的啦如果我們看過一些見解是有疑慮的主要是那個程序要請大院能夠明示到底我們要怎麼向院內來尋求解凍也許我們國會聯絡的人也會跟大院的議事組來講程序的部分當然要講這是兩院之間這個兩院院長也好或是各單位也好去協調啦那我們現在講的說是被動跟主動求院如果你們今天"},{"start":336.547,"end":357.464,"text":"遲遲的沒有公告 沒有提解凍案進來那我想不管是委員會也好 院會也好 我沒辦法處理啊今天就算 就像今天這樣子今天已經3月10幾號了嘛 那如果今天如果照正常程序 如果一切都按照正常程序不管預算的審查怎麼樣 或是後面有沒有提付議案我想按照往例 假設今天"},{"start":358.885,"end":382.352,"text":"這個整個立法院行政院的按照正常程序來講可能現在也執行30%就差不多要啟動相關程序了啦好所以我們期待還是要期待說這個主委要把這意見帶回去啦說你們在行政端這邊主要是說你們如果沒有提那立法院也沒辦法被動的處理我想要把這個事情把它來講清楚了好不好還有兩分鐘來我們針對一下內容這個我想這個"},{"start":386.314,"end":401.146,"text":"要提到工程會的部分就是針對這幾年很多營建通膨物價上漲的部分我們看到說包含基隆捷運還有高雄的捷運從過去這些年它的經費都漲非常非常多那麼像過去的這幾年營造工程物價指數也是連年上漲從105年的"},{"start":403.228,"end":428.044,"text":"最低82.15%到去年達到111.4%是歷史新高我們要問的是說對於這樣子的物價指數達到歷史新高對於我們想很多公共工程的影響性非常非常大可能流標也好或者是進度拖延也好不知道工程會對這樣的狀況有沒有具體掌握到那要怎麼樣解救我想很多地方建設陸陸續續在開展尤其是台中我想今年"},{"start":428.624,"end":451.576,"text":"大家都知道台中今天藍線要即將要動工要開始動那長達時期的工企會不會到最後又一天發生我們已經看到這麼多案子這麼多這個捷運工程都流標或者是在延後很多次那台中我想我們對於藍線台中非常期待這個造價上千億的工程會不會到最後一千億變兩千億那後面怎麼處理等等的我想工程會對這問題有沒有掌握到要怎麼解決"},{"start":453.298,"end":475.536,"text":"因為台中南線大概我記得經費大概900多億這個中央政府的部分900多億那因為我們預算編列或規劃的階段在預算框的時候是舊的當年的指標等到這些基本設計已經審核定了細部設計也設計了施工完工那已經後面的事了"},{"start":475.836,"end":492.377,"text":"所以顯然是這個之前的這個指標也許會受通膨相關的影響那這一部分我們工程會也會希望各機關在辦理公共工程的時候他的預算要編列的時候要注意到這樣的情形"},{"start":493.078,"end":510.773,"text":"所以盡量而且要因地制宜甚至有的比較偏鄉造價比較高的 該造價高的預算就偏比較多啦那另外就是在執行中如果有碰到這個廠商跟機關之間因為物價的問題需要調整或需要執行的那工程會呢都會"},{"start":512.214,"end":535.629,"text":"站在比較協助解決的方向來加以諮詢或協調那另外就是說整個預算裡面機關有時候他也會準備物條的費用會編在裡面因為我們擔心說當然在編預算的確都有物條費的問題就是說現在是基本上每過五年每過十年又有一項這種大型工程當然第一個我們希望說"},{"start":537.25,"end":562.8,"text":"大的問題是說我們大的工程能不能加速進行還不要拖五年十年但物價都不一樣了那另外一個回到工程面回到這個政府的對於這些工程進度的掌管的問題來講的話這個工程會在審相關案件的時候是不是應該直接把物價可能調漲的這個問題放進去審核的報告裡面讓他們知道說未來幾年不管是你們因為我想工程會可能掌握的"},{"start":563.981,"end":571.717,"text":"資源或技術比地方政府或地方發包的或比地方工程的廠商來得多嗎你們比較知道說可能現行的物價值說未來"},{"start":572.987,"end":594.706,"text":"會上漲多少的比例可能要先放進去而不是說我今年按現在的物價編完了比如說現在台東捷運你中央出900多億地方也才會出1000左右2000總共2000億左右的捷運纜線會不會明年就超過這金額所以我就多編的部分是不是能夠讓工程會有一個方案能夠讓地方政府能比較放心的去做這個事情"},{"start":594.926,"end":618.866,"text":"好 謝謝委員因為台中的藍線捷運因為之前有修正過如果在執行中有發現這個問題那主辦機關是台中市政府他可以再提修正再提修正經過行政院來審議如果覺得預算要調整的時候就會再核定這個修正計畫那因為還沒有完工所以沒有里約爭議的問題所以當中台中市政府可以提修正好 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請主席邀請主委好 陳主委"},{"start":13.68,"end":33.291,"text":"委員長主委早安我們知道公共工程委員會是這個政府採購法還有計事法跟工程技術顧問公司管理條例的主管機關那對整個國家的這個公共建設的是不是能夠順利的發包推行然後包括這個"},{"start":34.392,"end":49.891,"text":"品質 確保施工的品質等等我們公共工程委員會是肩負著很重責大任當然這些業務要順利的推動所以預算很重要我們看到就是說我們工程會在今年度的一個預算"},{"start":51.452,"end":53.773,"text":"原本是編列了5億4163萬8千元那目前就是經過就是立法院大會的一個審議之後目前是確定已經被刪了1514萬3千元那凍結業務費1億3百"},{"start":69.182,"end":84.365,"text":"03萬元嘛這是確定的嘛對不對那本席想請問一下就是說對這樣子的一個預算被煽動的一個結果對我們公共工程委員會今年度的業務的推行會有什麼樣的困難是不是可以請主委講一下"},{"start":85.909,"end":100.532,"text":"謝謝委員主要兩部分就是凍結50%的部分是業務費雖然工程會預算不多但是工程會去控管的國家公共建設以今年度來講1億以上的控管就有7000多億"},{"start":101.633,"end":127.049,"text":"所以我們這些業務費主要就是包括去去視察去看這個橋樑或審議基本設計等等很簡單的來講如果凍結一半的話那一半不知道什麼時候會解凍那相對的那7000多億將近8000例的公共建設我們就一半沒有辦法去督導啦那這是其一第二個比較嚴重的就是金職獎因為金職獎要報名金職獎的大概去年就在準備了那"},{"start":127.529,"end":141.545,"text":"我們現在要發包了然後要通知業者他7月就開始來報名那我們就持續要去查核所以我們如果的預算剛才有說明凍結一半的話那後面"},{"start":142.366,"end":164.848,"text":"我們包括出席審查出評賦評的委員都要給車馬費都要出席費不知道能不能付得出啦所以到底要不要辦我們現在還在等這個預算到底有沒有比較明確什麼時候可以解凍尤其凍結金的史無前例的是在院會來解凍那我們看了一些大院的議事規則"},{"start":166.269,"end":188.849,"text":"院會來解凍這件事情好像還沒有潛力可循到底怎麼解凍我們都很難去有個遵循所以我們才評估說對工程會雖然預算不多那凍結53看起來不多但影響卻很大是那剛剛有委員詢問說你們工程會有沒有送出解凍案了"},{"start":191.004,"end":211.39,"text":"那就是說我們大院要求我們執行預算30%以後才能夠提解凍可是今年的解凍跟過去不一樣以前我們在委員會就可以處理因為我們跟各位委員都比較熟平常業務也都說明所以基本上我們比較有"},{"start":212.389,"end":229.157,"text":"有信心說在委員會來報告會獲得委員的支持但是在大院的院會就不一定比方說我們今年中央政府總預算在各委員會都已經談了差不多了刪多少凍結多少那機關也都我們也都同意了可是到院會去又突然會變卦"},{"start":229.997,"end":234.081,"text":"對 其實我們看到這次工程會被凍結比例最高的就是業務費50%我們也看到這是國民黨黨團的一個提案他們的提案也綁了一個條件就是要執行30%之後 使得申請解凍"},{"start":252.017,"end":271.614,"text":"那要送院會 所以這個其實也是史無前例的啦那何況說 上個禮拜四我們行政院的一個復議案才被否決嘛所以就是說 在這麼短的時間怎麼有可能說你們優務單位有可能提出這個解凍案所以我覺得這個真的是在誤導這個民眾"},{"start":273.416,"end":291.551,"text":"那所以這個結果都是已經確定了當然就是造成了我們工程會沒有辦法的去對這個大型公共建設的這個發包的部分沒有辦法去協助順利發包因為我們知道最近幾年就是很多的公共建設的案子流標的次數"},{"start":292.511,"end":306.28,"text":"比例也比較高這個也是要透過我們工程會去協助檢討之後來協助順利發包這個也是關係到整個地方基礎建設是不是可以順利的一個推展的部分那包括這個爭議案件的一個審議就是有關採購的一個爭議也是要透過我們工程會來做一個審議跟協調這個也都是會影響到這個廠商跟整個業務單位相關的一個權益問題"},{"start":321.889,"end":345.404,"text":"那最重要的就是有關這個技師跟顧問公司證照業務的一個推動這個也是一個很重大的影響嘛這部分我替主委補充一下這部分你剛剛沒有提到嘛這個對整個全國約三萬名技師跟一千多家顧問公司的權益也是會造成很重大的一個影響嘛是不是那還有一項就是金職獎的部分你剛剛有提到了那這個也很多委員剛剛都有這個在關心的"},{"start":348.866,"end":364.893,"text":"那有關這個金職獎這個可以說號稱是工程界的奧斯卡獎嘛對不對那如果說這個預算業務費沒有辦法這個順利的解凍的話就是恐怕面臨停辦嘛是不是"},{"start":365.843,"end":381.749,"text":"對 因為這個金指獎的期程比較長牽涉到很多家廠商他到底要不要報名或不報名都影響很大他要投入去準備所以我們希望有一個比較明確的能夠讓我們知道這個預算能不能用"},{"start":382.369,"end":396.795,"text":"那可是呢他的困難度就是說這次是院會解凍那到底呢將來所有的這些院會解凍的案呢是各部會呢到院會裡去尋求解凍呢還是行政院一次去尋求解凍我們都還不知道那"},{"start":397.975,"end":425.592,"text":"各部會向行政院來提解凍案呢還是行政院統包一次來向立法院來提解凍也都不知道那怎麼審查也都不知道那如果又陷入院會到時候又要去說明又要去表決那個都未定之天所以對我們來講造成很大的困難那請教一下這個金職獎對於工程界重不重要"},{"start":428.116,"end":456.307,"text":"歷年金職獎已經辦了24屆了啦所以它有一定的品牌那也是工程品質的一個指標啦所以所有的公共工程的機關或成人廠商都很希望在他們努力之後他的品質獲得金職獎的肯定啦那這個金職獎肯定除了說將來他這個再去參與其他工程的評選的時候有加分或者是他的保固禮約等等可以"},{"start":457.427,"end":486.278,"text":"可以減半等等這些優惠之外各界太重視這個金職獎了所以我們那個整個期程是很長啦不是說我可以這個先付款或不付款的問題那的確是需要大院能夠儘早能夠來幫忙所以金職獎對於這是就是工程界非常重視這個金職獎非常重視對所以如果停辦的話我想對整個工程界可能也是會造成很大的一個我們也會有很大的壓力啦就是如果停辦"},{"start":487.018,"end":508.305,"text":"那工程界對我們也會有一定的不諒解所以我們一方面有這個壓力一方面有預算不知道在哪裡的這個困擾因為我們知道就是說透過金職獎我們可以就是透過廠商間的一個良性競爭然後也可以變成是大家一個經驗的一個分享那也是可以確保這個公共工程一個施工品質"},{"start":509.065,"end":512.707,"text":"所以我覺得說這樣子的一個金職獎舉辦是很有意義的那何況又說這個金職獎是評定優良廠商的一個依據透過這樣子的一個評定也是可以讓這些優良廠商享有一定的一個優惠所以我們也是就是說對於這樣子金職獎因為業務費被這樣子大幅的一個凍結恐怕面臨"},{"start":532.899,"end":551.36,"text":"停辦我們是覺得非常的一個遺憾那另外還有一個很重要的一個業務就是工程查核的一個部分那工程查核的這個經費雖然編列的數額也不是很大可是也是非常的重要那目前也是確定被刪減了七萬兩千元然後又被凍結了"},{"start":555.843,"end":576.309,"text":"這個89萬就是超過了一半那對這個部分對我們這個公共工程有什麼樣的影響是不是請那個主委跟委員報告114年度的公共建設來講列管的一以上的就包括了七千大概七千七百多億所以我們這個查核才178萬凍結的話恐怕會造成連出去"},{"start":581.03,"end":590.164,"text":"租車都沒有錢啦這個吃個便當可能這個業務費都沒辦法使用所以影響所及是那個7000多億的一半將近4000億受影響"},{"start":591.124,"end":613.764,"text":"是所以我覺得說這個在野黨對於這個預算在審查的時候提這樣子的一個煽動案真的就是漠視這民眾的一個公共安全所以我們也是覺得非常的遺憾那我們也希望就是說工程會在當然就是在衡量我們預算的執行的情形的話也是盡量趕快來爭取這個解凍好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":377,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（10時28分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請主委。"],["主席：好，陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["陳委員素月：主委早。我們知道公共工程委員會是政府採購法還有技師法跟工程技術顧問公司管理條例的主管機關，對於整個國家的公共建設是不是能夠順利發包、推行，然後包括品質、確保施工的品質等等，我們公共工程委員會肩負著重責大任。當然這些業務要順利地推動，預算很重要。我們看到工程會在今年度的預算原本是編列了5億4,163萬8,000元，目前經過立法院大會的審議之後，確定已經被刪了1,514萬3,000元，凍結業務費1億303萬元，這是確定的，對不對？本席想請問一下，對於這樣子一個預算被刪凍的結果，對我們公共工程委員會今年度的業務推行會有什麼樣的困難？是不是可以請主委講一下？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員，主要有兩部分，就是凍結50%的部分是業務費，雖然工程會預算不多，但是工程會控管的國家公共建設，以今年度來講，1億以上的控管就有七千多億，所以我們這些業務費，主要就是包括去視察、去看這個橋梁或審議基本設計等等。很簡單來講，如果凍結一半的話，那一半不知道什麼時候會解凍，相對的那七千多億，將近8,000億的公共建設，我們就有一半沒有辦法去督導，這是其一。","第二個比較嚴重的就是金質獎，因為要報名金質獎的大概去年就在準備了，我們現在也要發包了，然後要通知業者7月就開始來報名，我們就持續要去查核，所以有關預算剛才有說明是凍結一半的話，後面包括出席、審查、初評、複評的委員都要給車馬費、都要出席費，不知道能不能付得出啦，所以到底要不要辦，我們現在還在等這個預算有沒有比較明確、什麼時候可以解凍。尤其今年凍結史無前例是在院會來解凍，我們看了一些大院的議事規則，院會解凍這件事情好像還沒有前例可循，到底怎麼解凍都很難有所遵循，所以我們才評估認為工程會雖然預算不多，凍結50%看起來不多，但影響卻很大。"],["陳委員素月：是，剛剛有委員詢問說你們工程會有沒有送出解凍案了？"],["陳主任委員金德：大院要求我們執行預算30%才能夠提解凍，可是今年的解凍跟過去不一樣，以前我們在委員會就可以處理，因為我們跟各位委員都比較熟，平常業務也都有說明，所以基本上我們比較有信心在委員會報告會獲得委員的支持，但是在大院的院會就不一定，比方說我們今年中央政府總預算在各委員會都已經談得差不多了，刪多少、凍結多少，我們機關也都同意了，可是到院會去又突然變卦。"],["陳委員素月：對，其實我們看到這一次工程會被凍結比例最高的就是業務費50%，我們也看到這是國民黨黨團的提案，他們的提案也綁了一個條件，就是要執行30%之後始得申請解凍、要送院會，所以這個其實也是史無前例的，何況上個禮拜四我們行政院的覆議案才被否決，所以在這麼短的時間，你們業務單位怎麼有可能提出這個解凍案？所以我覺得這個真的是在誤導民眾，所以結果都已經確定了，當然就是造成我們工程會沒有辦法對大型公共建設的部分去協助順利發包。因為我們知道，最近幾年很多的公共建設的案子流標的次數比例也比較高，這個也是要透過我們工程會去協助檢討之後並協助順利發包，這個也是關係到整個地方基礎建設是不是可以順利推展的部分，包括爭議案件的審議，就是有關採購的爭議也是要透過我們工程會來做審議跟協調，這個也都是會影響到廠商跟整個業務單位相關的權益問題。最重要的就是有關技師跟顧問公司、證照業務的推動，這個也是一個很重大的影響。這個部分我替主委補充一下啦，你剛剛沒有提到，這對於整個全國約3萬名技師跟一千多家顧問公司的權益也是會造成很重大的影響，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：對。"],["陳委員素月：還有一項就是金質獎的部分，你剛剛有提到了，這個也是很多委員剛剛都有在關心的。有關金質獎可以號稱是工程界的奧斯卡獎，對不對？如果這個預算、業務費沒有辦法順利解凍的話，恐怕面臨停辦，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：對，因為金質獎的期程比較長啦，牽涉到很多家廠商，它到底要不要報名或不報名都影響很大，它要投入去準備，所以我們希望有一個比較明確的資訊，能夠讓我們知道這個預算能不能用，可是它的困難度在於這次是在院會解凍，到底將來所有的院會解凍案是各部會到院會裡去尋求解凍？還是行政院一次去尋求解凍？我們都還不知道。是各部會向行政院來提解凍案，還是行政院統包，一次向立法院提解凍？這我們也不知道，怎麼審查也都不知道。如果送入院會，到時候又要去說明，又要去表決，那都是未定之天，所以對我們來講是造成很大的困難。"],["陳委員素月：對啊，那都是未知數啊！請教一下，金質獎對於工程界重不重要？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為金質獎已經辦了24屆了……"],["陳委員素月：對。"],["陳主任委員金德：所以它有一定的品牌，也是工程品質的指標，所有公共工程機關或承攬廠商都很希望在他們努力之後，他們的品質獲得金質獎的肯定，這個金質獎的肯定除了將來他們再去參與其他工程評選時有加分，或者是他們的保固、履約等等可以減半，除了這些優惠之外，各界太重視這個金質獎了，因此我們整個期程很長，不是可以先付款或不付款的問題，的確希望大院能夠儘早來幫忙。"],["陳委員素月：所以工程界非常重視這個金質獎嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：非常重視。"],["陳委員素月：如果停辦的話，我想對整個工程界可能也會造成很大的影響。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們也會有很大的壓力，如果停辦，工程界對我們也會有一定程度的不諒解。"],["陳委員素月：是。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們一方面有這個壓力，一方面有預算不知道在哪裡的困擾。"],["陳委員素月：是，因為我們知道金質獎可以透過廠商間的良性競爭，也可以變成大家經驗的分享，也能確保公共工程的施工品質，所以我覺得舉辦這樣的金質獎是很有意義的，何況金質獎是評定優良廠商的一個依據，透過這樣子的評定，也可以讓這些優良廠商享有一定的優惠。對於金質獎因為業務費被大幅凍結，恐怕面臨停辦，我們覺得非常遺憾。","另外還有一個很重要的業務就是工程查核的部分，工程查核的經費雖然編列數額不是很大，可是也是非常的重要，目前也確定被刪減了7萬2,000元，又被凍結了89萬，也就是超過了一半，這個部分對於我們公共工程有什麼樣的影響？是不是請主委再跟大家說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，以114年度的公共建設來講，列管在1億以上的就大概包括了七千七百多億，所以我們這個查核才178萬，凍結的話，恐怕會造成連出去租車都沒有錢，可能連吃個便當的業務費都沒辦法使用，所以影響所及是那個七千多億的一半，將近4,000億受影響。"],["陳委員素月：是，所以我覺得在野黨對於預算審查時提這樣的刪凍案，真的就是漠視民眾的公共安全，我們也覺得非常的遺憾。我們當然也希望工程會衡量預算執行的情形，儘量趕快來爭取解凍。"],["陳主任委員金德：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員。","現在請黃健豪委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},{"id":"159224","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159224","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MCli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太空等各項領域晶片更是台灣科技與產業的重中之重所以事實上你們國客會的業務影響到的是台灣在全球的競爭力也是台灣在全球民主供應鏈中的戰略地位"},{"start":19.202,"end":43.481,"text":"這是非常重要也關乎到國家的安全所以剛剛在前面各黨派的委員對國科會其實都相當的重視尤其包括你們的科研人才等等的大家都很重視也代表大家都很支持那我們要保持台灣的科技優勢同時要追趕先進國家當然也就需要預算的支持"},{"start":44.898,"end":66.285,"text":"所以我們知道在全球的競爭當中其實台灣有很大的追趕空間我看了幾個數字第一在太空領域今年太空中心的預算是47億這其實已經是這幾年來因為政府的重視已經有增加了因為三年前太空中心一年只有34億"},{"start":67.805,"end":91.762,"text":"根據之前我們獲得的資訊韓國每一年給太空的發展的預算是190億這是台灣的三到四倍第二在AI領域我們要提升算力這之前主委也講過算力就是我們國力要有國家對所以國科會現在是分三期投入170億要提升我們台灣的AI算力我看了一個英國有一個評比各國的AI指數"},{"start":93.783,"end":96.345,"text":"台灣是26名算是中斷班那在亞洲國家目前新加坡是第三韓國第六日本是12所以呢我們也有很大的進步的空間電腦工會就呼籲說台灣的政府在AI資源的挹注應該要繼續的增加繼續的支持"},{"start":115.663,"end":135.823,"text":"但是呢剛剛主委前面質詢其實也提到對於才化法通過對於未來我們國科會業務所會造成衝擊的憂心我們行政院主計長在立法院答詢的時候他提到新法的才化法通過之後中央會減少3753億"},{"start":139.534,"end":153.12,"text":"平均來換算的話每一個部會會通刪減28%但是我們如果考量國安國防部的預算不動的話每一個部會會刪減的比例可能會高達到37%"},{"start":155.621,"end":180.531,"text":"這是近四成衝擊一定是非常之大所以我現在想要請問主委才化法因為通過它是在明年嘛但是你們已經在準備明年度的預算了未來如果國科會的預算要去減少到將近四成37%對我們的科技領域創新發展像是晶片AI太空等各領域目前的初步的評估大概會有什麼樣的影響"},{"start":184.332,"end":202.383,"text":"那我其實有報告過說我對這個非常憂心因為我們很多非常重要的科技研發的項目其實都是我們審慎規劃要全力執行的那如果說有哪些項目因為這個樣子需要是 請問能不能列舉幾項項目"},{"start":205.236,"end":220.933,"text":"我們所有的重大項目就是AI半導體這是重中之重我們的量子科技沒錯其實我看過你們提出的資料因為每一項都非常的重要都是台灣在追趕先進國家我們都在努力當中"},{"start":222.219,"end":229.603,"text":"如果說按照我們這個今年度的預算比例先來試算的話我們的四大重點領域基礎科研408億未來會影響衝擊的會減少到122億精創與人工智慧107億受影響的會有近32億太空科研43億會影響減少13億淨零科技研究10.8億會影響到要減少3.2億"},{"start":249.555,"end":255.799,"text":"這個比例都非常之大影響到我們整個國家的科研科研都是長期的發展不是只有明年後年下一個五年十年的台灣科研會受到多麼大的衝擊所以剛剛我前面聽到我覺得非常好我們各黨派的立委都很支持你們國科會科資院委員關心基礎科研人才的流失我們要給予支持林沛翔委員關心我們的這個AI相關等等的研究"},{"start":278.214,"end":295.668,"text":"都要給予支持但是支持是什麼預算的支持啊有預算才有計劃尤其是為什麼國科會要新增計劃新增預算因為有新增業務我們都在努力發展嘛主委我想請問除了國科會以外對於大學的研究經費因為你們國科會才化法若通過預算受到衝擊會不會影響到我們大學裡面的研究呢"},{"start":304.748,"end":322.13,"text":"如果真的是按照這樣執行的話的確會影響在你們的基礎科研裡面122億這裡面是不是很多是在大學裡面很多教授學者的研究計畫大部分都是學研單位就是大學教授沒有錯"},{"start":322.991,"end":341.15,"text":"對 那一般呢各個領域都會影響都會影響到嘛不是只有我們國科會本會的業務而已是那一般我們明年度的研究計畫是不是今年就要提出申請今年年底嘛今年年底要申請對 我們現在有沒有預估大概影響衝擊會有多少因為研究計畫包含了什麼裡面有研究計畫人員"},{"start":342.651,"end":353.818,"text":"很多是這個助理我也當過計畫的助理研究人員中研院也做出一個預估因為他們今年的業務被凍結了11億他們去評估說凍結11億會影響到中研院將近3000名的研究助理這當中很多都是碩士班等等的在學生都是我們未來潛在的博士人才所以說這個部分我希望國科會也可以來進行一個評估"},{"start":368.306,"end":394.909,"text":"市長跟委員報告大家可能會覺得說就是影響可能三成那如果是通商的話即使是通商三成影響也不是只有三成為什麼因為我們現在國會的這個計畫主持人主持會已經調升了然後我們加薪的部分不是只有我們的公務人員教師而已我們連助理也都是一起加薪所以這些人事費用你不能給他砍三成"},{"start":395.729,"end":407.621,"text":"所以你真正可用的研究經費是遠比減三成還要嚴重所以這部分我是希望大家能夠理解對 我們都希望說立法院能夠在"},{"start":408.874,"end":412.538,"text":"有沒有補救的機會但是現在副議案已經被否決但我現在能夠做的我能夠做的是我必須提醒署委我希望你們可以先來評估這個人會衝擊到的在大學裡面研究助理的人數因為其實我好多我們在學校裡面的朋友都在擔心說他們明年到底還有沒有這個工作"},{"start":429.435,"end":450.162,"text":"因為假設明年沒工作他現在也要開始去找他的出路當然我們希望不要那算是請你們先開始評估並且預先告知好不好好謝謝好那我剛剛講了這些我們真的非常的重視尤其是太空三期計畫主任你知道我很重視每一次我都質詢因為好不容易過去本來我們的太空計畫預算是291億主任沒關係因為我今天不會問到細節就請回座"},{"start":456.064,"end":465.547,"text":"那後來好不容易加碼 加碼到了是400億可是因為如果財化法通過 明年又要減少38%等於我們的這個加碼 又被砍掉重練 大會原形我們要怎麼樣去繼續的來進步然後衛星其實牽涉到通訊韌性 這都是台灣的國家安全"},{"start":479.091,"end":482.352,"text":"所以呢我真的是相當的憂心我也要拜託本會教文會所有的委員大家我聽到大家的質詢內容其實都相當的理性也都非常支持國科會的各項業務但是我們必須要務實的去考量有計劃有業務就必須要有相等的"},{"start":498.937,"end":501.118,"text":"預算來去進行支持也希望國科會要讓國人知道我目前我們的發展受到什麼樣可能的影響接下來因為今年國科會有一個計畫相當關注是台灣運動文化研究專案"},{"start":514.426,"end":530.734,"text":"因為主委你過去也是少棒國手也參加過威廉博特所以呢你其實本身也就是我們台灣運動史的一部分那因為去年也感謝立法院跨黨派的立委大家共同支持修法通過今年8月預計我們希望運動部可以掛牌成立那我跟這個陳培宇委員也開了立法院開一個公聽會就是在關注我們台灣運動文化記憶的保存我們邀請到了"},{"start":542.979,"end":568.619,"text":"資深的職棒選手周董周思齊來與會他就提到一個呼籲希望呢台灣在運動部成立之後能夠有一個運動博物館所以我想現在國科會這個運動文化研究專案非常重要能不能跟我們說明一下這個專案要預期達成什麼樣的目標目前政見情形如何謝謝委員我很感謝我們的人文處提出這個專案因為運動"},{"start":570.345,"end":598.726,"text":"變成是我們文化的一部分這個對國家的這個將來文明的提升是非常重要的因為過去我們都把這個運動都只講體育而已那體育的話就限縮在是在教育的這個層面但是運動是跟人的這個身心的健康是息息相關的從小到到中老希望能夠運動是變成我們整個生活工作各個層面文化的一部分這樣才會"},{"start":599.626,"end":623.743,"text":"讓我們的國力更為強大所以這是我們最終極的目標那這樣子的話我希望我們的學界好好研究一下怎麼樣把運動從原來的只是一個體育競技運動的項目體育教育把它變成是我們真正文化的一部分就是我們成立運動部也是很重要的任務那這個研究會變成將來我們在政府施政上很重要的參考的依據"},{"start":624.343,"end":636.861,"text":"好 我想我們都很期待國會這個研究也希望這個研究未來也可以協助我們國家運動部成立之後對於台灣運動文化保存的發展好 謝謝主委 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":341,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（10時29分）謝謝主席，我請國科會吳誠文主委。"],["主席：請吳主委備詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：吳委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：主委好。主委，國科會是負責臺灣的科技發展，現在全球也都在競爭AI、量子、太空等各項領域，晶片更是我們科技與產業的重中之重，事實上，你們國科會的業務會影響臺灣在全球的競爭力與在全球民主供應鏈中的戰略地位，這是非常重要，也關乎到國家的安全。所以剛剛前面各黨派的委員對國科會其實都相當地重視，尤其包括你們的科研人才等等的，大家都很重視，也代表大家都很支持，我們要保持臺灣的科技優勢，同時要追趕先進國家，當然也就需要預算的支持。我們知道在全球的競爭當中，其實臺灣有很大的追趕空間，我看了幾個數字，第一，在太空領域，今年太空中心的預算是47億，這幾年因為政府的重視已經有增加了，因為3年前的太空中心1年只有34億，根據之前我們獲得的資訊，韓國每一年給太空發展的預算是190億，這是臺灣的3到4倍。第二，在AI領域，我們要提升算力。在之前主委也講過，算力就是我們的國力，要有國家隊，所以國科會現在是分三期投入170億要提升臺灣的AI算力。我看了英國一個評比各國的AI指數，臺灣是第26名，算是中段班，在亞洲國家，目前新加坡是第3，韓國第6，日本是12，所以我們也有很大進步的空間。電腦公會就呼籲說，臺灣政府在AI資源的挹注應該要繼續的增加，繼續的支持。","但是剛剛主委前面在接受質詢時也提到，財劃法通過後對未來國科會業務造成衝擊的憂心。我們行政院主計長在立法院答詢的時候提到，新版財劃法通過之後，中央會減少3,753億，平均換算每一個部會會通刪減28%，但是我們如果考量國安，國防部的預算不動的話，每一個部會刪減的比例可能高達37%、近四成，衝擊一定是非常之大。所以我現在想要請問主委，因為財劃法通過了，它是在明年嘛，但是你們已經在準備明年度的預算，未來如果國科會的預算要減少將近四成、37%，對我們科技領域的創新發展，像是晶片、AI、太空等各領域，目前初步的評估大概會有什麼樣的影響？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我其實也報告過我對這個非常憂心，因為因為我們很多非常重要科技研發的項目，都是我們審慎規劃要全力執行的，如果說有哪些項目因為這樣需要……"],["吳委員沛憶：是，主委能不能列舉幾項項目？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們所有的重大項目，AI、半導體這是重中之重，我們的量子科技……"],["吳委員沛憶：沒錯，其實我看過你們提出的資料，每一項都非常的重要，都是臺灣在追趕先進國家，而我們都在努力當中。如果按照我們今年度的預算比例先來試算的話，我們的四大重點領域，未來會受到影響、衝擊，基礎科研408億，會減少122億；晶創與人工智慧107億，受影響的會有近32億；太空科研43億，會影響減少13億；淨零科技研究10.8億，會受影響而減少3.2億，比例都非常之大，影響我們整個國家的科研，而科研都是長期的發展，不是只有明年、後年，下一個5年、10年的臺灣科研會受到多麼大的衝擊！所以剛剛我前面聽到的，我覺得非常好，我們各黨派的立委都很支持國科會，柯志恩委員關心基礎科研人才的流失，我們要給予支持；林沛祥委員關心AI相關等等的研究，都要給予支持，但是支持是什麼？就是預算的支持啊！有預算才有計畫，尤其是為什麼國科會要新增預算？因為有新增業務，我們都在努力發展嘛！","主委，我想請問除了國科會以外，對於大學的研究經費……因為財劃法如果通過，你們國科會預算受到衝擊，會不會影響到我們大學裡面的研究呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：如果真的是按照這樣執行的話，的確會影響啦！"],["吳委員沛憶：在你們的基礎科研裡面是122億嘛，這裡面是不是有很多是在大學裡面，很多是教授、學者的研究計畫？"],["吳主任委員誠文：大部分都是學研單位，就是大學教授，沒有錯。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，那一般呢？"],["吳主任委員誠文：各個領域都會影響。"],["吳委員沛憶：都會影響到嘛！不是只有我們國科會本會的業務而已。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：一般我們明年度的研究計畫，是不是今年就要提出申請？今年年底嘛？"],["吳主任委員誠文：今年年底要申請。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，我們現在有沒有預估大概影響、衝擊會有多少？因為研究計畫包含了什麼？裡面有研究計畫人員，很多是助理，我也當過計畫的助理研究人員啊！中研院有做出一個預估，因為他們今年的業務被凍結了11億，據他們評估，凍結11億會影響到中研院將近3,000名的研究助理，這當中很多都是碩士班等等的在學生，都是我們未來潛在的博士人才，所以對這個部分我希望國科會也可以來進行一個評估。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。我跟委員報告，大家可能會覺得影響三成，如果是通刪的話，但即使是通刪三成，影響也不是只有三成，為什麼？因為現在國科會計畫主持人的主持費已經調升了，然後我們加薪的部分並不是只有我們的公務人員、教師而已，我們連助理也都是一起加薪，對這些人事費用，你不能給他砍三成，所以你真正可用的研究經費是遠比減三成還要嚴重，這部分我希望大家能夠理解。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，我們都希望立法院能夠有補救的機會，但是現在覆議案已經被否決，我現在能夠做的，我必須提醒主委，我希望你們可以先來評估會衝擊到的、在大學裡面研究助理的人數，因為其實我們好多在學校裡面的朋友都在擔心明年到底還有沒有這個工作，假設明年沒工作，他現在也要開始去找出路，當然我們希望不要，請你們先開始評估並且預先告知，好不好？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，謝謝。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我剛剛講的這些，我們真的非常的重視，尤其是太空三期計畫，主委，你知道我很重視，每一次我都質詢，因為好不容易過去……本來我們的太空計畫預算是291億。主任，沒關係，因為我今天不會問到細節，請回座。後來好不容易加碼到了400億，可是如果因為財劃法通過，明年又要減少38%，等於我們的加碼又被砍掉重練、打回原形，我們要怎麼樣繼續的進步？然後衛星其實牽涉到通訊韌性，這都是臺灣的國家安全，所以我真的是相當的憂心，我也要拜託教文委員會所有的委員，我聽到大家的質詢內容其實都相當的理性，也都非常支持國科會的各項業務，但是我們必須要務實的去考量，有計畫、有業務就必須要有相等的預算去進行支持，也希望國科會要讓國人知道目前我們的發展可能受到什麼樣的影響。","接下來，今年國科會有一個計畫我相當關注，是臺灣運動文化研究專案。主委，你過去也是少棒國手，也參加過威廉波特，所以你本身其實也是我們臺灣運動史的一部分。去年也感謝立法院跨黨派的立委大家共同支持修法通過，預計在今年8月，我們希望運動部可以掛牌成立。我跟陳培瑜委員在立法院也開了一個公聽會，就是在關注我們臺灣運動文化記憶的保存，我們邀請到了資深的職棒選手周董──周思齊來與會，他就呼籲希望臺灣在運動部成立之後，能夠有一個運動博物館。所以我想現在國科會運動文化研究專案非常重要，能不能跟我們說明一下，這個專案預計要達成什麼樣的目標，目前徵件情形如何？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，我很感謝我們的人文處提出這個專案，因為運動變成是我們文化的一部分，這個對於將來國家文明的提升是非常重要的。過去我們對運動都只講體育而已，體育就限縮在教育的這個層面，但是運動跟人的身心健康是息息相關的，從小到終老，希望運動能夠變成我們整個生活、工作、各個層面文化的一部分，這樣才會讓我們的國力更為強大，所以這是我們最終極的目標，這樣子的話，我希望我們學界好好研究一下，怎麼樣把運動從原來只是一個競技運動的項目、體育教育變成是我們真正文化的一部分，這也是我們成立運動部很重要的任務，這個研究會變成將來我們在政府施政上很重要的參考依據。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我想我們都很期待國科會這個研究，也希望這個研究未來也可以協助我們國家運動部成立之後，對於臺灣運動文化保存的發展。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員的質詢，主委請回座，謝謝。","還是有必要說明一下，國科會的預算今年度是比去年度增加132億，同時，財劃法也還沒有做部會的劃分，我們要相信行政院發展科研的決心。","我們下一位接著請林宜瑾委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}},{"id":"159223","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159223","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb8003eeaca27f006fad7e46c29134393cce1d26ba49c773cd142f2a7614d0e9965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:29:23 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營運署你好"},{"start":150.749,"end":159.214,"text":"前年我國那個火電發電佔比是82%那核能發電佔佔6.3%嘛對吧那現在我們準備核能要歸零那我想請問一下這部分的電力未來要用哪一種電來補"},{"start":174.527,"end":197.078,"text":"因為我們的那個能源轉型就是大概是減煤增氣,斬綠跟非核就是核能電廠接觸之後我們就是用這個我們的這個增加我們天然氣的發電然後增加再生能源的發電然後減少這個燃煤的發電目標是這樣子然後占比大概是燃氣是50%燃煤30%再生能源20%"},{"start":198.098,"end":217.409,"text":"你說燃氣是50 50 58然後呢然後藍莓30藍莓30對那什麼時候你藍莓還要一直用啊還有你準備火力發電還是要繼續要火力發電其實包括那個藍莓跟燃氣都是火力發電對我的意思說你這兩個加起來就幾%了80對將近80%你認為這個不需要改嗎"},{"start":221.737,"end":244.064,"text":"這個部分就是說增加了天然氣是因為可以減少CO2的排放大概是以這個 但是造成的那個汙染呢天然氣的汙染是比較沒有這麼嚴重那所以 我看天然氣的那個CO2的那個那個IPC 比藍莓減少很多對啊 它是差得這樣一個820然後一個是490對吧 這兩個還是算是高的啊"},{"start":250.871,"end":275.239,"text":"我們認為這些一直長期在使用這個狀態的時候我們對我們的國人的健康不會受到影響嗎我們當然是希望能夠盡量減少這個污染的排放包括CO2排放因為它轉成碳排放也是荼毒人民的肺我覺得是這樣那我請問那個電力公司台電你們一度電買一度電就賠一度"},{"start":276.991,"end":291.504,"text":"合適賠了兩千多億也還掛在帳上嘛對不對不敢銷帳目前你們都沒有專業堅持我們讓我們執政黨隨便這樣宰割那我想請問一下現在是要漲電價是嗎目前還沒有現在電價審議委員會還沒有召開還沒有召開我是聽到那這個部分要推給立法院來扛這個責任"},{"start":305.636,"end":333.018,"text":"報告委員沒有我們是尊重3月份的電價審議委員會來決定所以我覺得啦你們該有的這個專業的這個判斷我覺得你們還是要提出來該講話的時候還是要講話這個才對你的專業來負責嘛對不對是好那我們請回那我請教部長我看到你們要成立空氣品質監測與預報中心"},{"start":335.154,"end":351.185,"text":"是這樣嗎對對對那我想說我想請問一下那剛剛講的我們剛剛我們剛剛有講到我們有成立第二級的這個空氣污染防治指揮中心那跟這個東西這個現在你要成立的這個中心有沒有有沒有不一樣的地方"},{"start":351.926,"end":374.402,"text":"因為我們過去的空氣品質的監測跟預報都在我們監製師來做那因為我們要強化AI的運用所以我們把監製師改名叫做環境科技與資訊師他強化AI數位治理的應用所以這個不是在增加一個部門不是不是我們把它移過來移到大氣師裡面因為大氣師要負責應變那應變呢從監測預報到應變把它整合起來就是單位換名稱就對了"},{"start":377.904,"end":400.814,"text":"我們單位換名稱然後整合人力所以並沒有說額外增加新的預算或人力所以要成立這個是因為我們自己在專業務上的考量對 業務的考量不是什麼氣候變遷委員會開會的時候決定不是不是不是啦對對對那我想請問一下那做了這個之後檢測中心之後如果現在空氣品質超標"},{"start":402.325,"end":406.208,"text":"然後呢然後這個中心他現在從上游的監測到預報到最後他們大氣勢的應變都會再統合一個單位來處理"},{"start":412.523,"end":437.292,"text":"等於他就有跨部會的一個功能現在已經有了但是我們希望他的這個功能性還有人員的這個培訓可以更好讓他大一點點一起協同注意超標之後我們要怎麼辦超標之後例如說好假設有二級就由我們司長來召集我們環境部還有各個縣市環保局一起來做那如果一級很嚴重的就是有環境部跟邀集各個部會一起來做這個"},{"start":438.872,"end":454.557,"text":"那有沒有計算過這個成本我們這個經費要花多少錢這個都在我們原有的預算並沒有增加然後我想重點空氣污染最大的來源當然就是發電不然你也不會叫台電來降載對不對"},{"start":456.263,"end":483.405,"text":"那我想目前看到的我們看到民進黨執政快要十年了能源政策是民進黨政府始終不敢面對的問題拿著廢核的神主牌搖擺不定這個到後來我覺得對台灣來講是非常傷害非常的大你長期的使用火力發電或者這個火力發電造成了我們老百姓的健康影響是非常大的我覺得部長你應該要"},{"start":485.855,"end":501.426,"text":"儘早來解決這樣的一個問題我不敢講說你一定要把這個核能恢復那但是至少要找到一個更好的變通方法當然也不是無條件的一直用這個綠能來替代這個電您認同嗎"},{"start":505.325,"end":531.54,"text":"包委員其實我也坦承說我們剛剛有一個圖表說我們的污染源來源裡面這種固定污染源譬如說電力排放失業其實我們的移動源已經超過固定源了所以其實這個也是交通也是我們一個努力的目標那剛剛委員提到的能源政策其實包含燃氣跟燃煤它的燃氣的雖然有排放二氧化碳但是比燃煤少很多所以其實二氧化碳其實它並不會對人體造成直接的影響而且它的空污量會減化"},{"start":533.061,"end":556.039,"text":"那我們現在如果要發展綠能或是新的能源在這個之前氣還是一個必要的一個轉圜那當然這個部分要多久目前如果以我們在規劃這個淨零的路徑來看的話當然是希望說在2030年例如說燃氣50之後慢慢慢慢的往下降那這個降的話2050年它會更好可能只剩下20%左右當然會是更好的"},{"start":557.075,"end":577.792,"text":"還要那麼久啊 你們這個還要二三十年欸對 這個氣因為氣開始蓋它用它就要二十多年的一個時間所以當然但是報告委員其實氣大多數是國家它在面對轉型的時候是一個過渡型的一個能源因為我們現在的再生能源並沒有那麼快那麼順利的能夠可以起來所以你們覺得還是覺得說現在廢核是對的啊"},{"start":581.133,"end":600.733,"text":"我沒有說是對但是委員我在當時算淨零入境的時候其實也發現到核能如果要真的啟動的話面臨到法令要修然後還要幫安全檢查核廢料的處理還有研議也要一些費用所以其實這個都是我無法無法去預期預知的所以你有考慮過同步來做這件事情"},{"start":602.053,"end":618.428,"text":"目前以我的專業來看我當然要經濟部或是河安會來處理但是以我的專業來看的話的確是非常的困難在台灣有一點挑戰但是我覺得你那個時間點拉太長我們國人健康非常重要絕對不能拖"},{"start":620.961,"end":633.51,"text":"對但是委員這個如果說將核能如果非核家園這個如果要研議的話核二加核三就是300億度的電跟我們目前未來國家需要的電力恐怕我還是覺得部長您發揮你的專業該爭取的時候就要爭取好不好好謝謝委員謝謝好謝謝邱委員謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":574,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時29分）有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。我看了環境部的書面報告，注意到2月27日西半部空品持續惡化，為此，環境部曾成立中央第二級空氣污染防制指揮中心，並召集地方環保局等單位召開應變會議，且協調經濟部、台電公司進行協和、麥寮、臺中興達電廠降載減排，總共降載了11億3,199萬度的電量，對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想請問部長，去年一年曾經幾次成立第二級或第一級防制指揮中心？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，大概有三年多沒有成立。"],["邱委員鎮軍：也就是說今年才發生比較嚴重的狀況？"],["彭部長啓明：污染這麼大的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：以前是怎麼樣？以前是我們的機器不好，還是怎麼樣？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有、沒有，剛好這次事件比較嚴重。另外，我們的AQI標準有修正。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有沒有查一下是什麼原因造成這個……"],["彭部長啓明：那天主要還是氣象因素，因為吹東風，以致整個西半部……最主要是我們的AQI加嚴了，讓AQI很容易達到不良等級。第二個，那天是氣象因素，吹東風……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這三年來沒有成立過半次？"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，大概三年多，所以我們也很慎重地成立應變中心。"],["邱委員鎮軍：臺灣企業用電需求越來越高，一旦成立空氣污染防制指揮中心，當降載與用電需求產生衝突時，是聽你的、還是聽經濟部的？"],["彭部長啓明：我們是一起協同作業。當然，我們不能讓全臺灣所有企業都不要用電，所以我們還是需要協同作業，互相協調來完成這件事。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我請經濟部代表來一下，好不好？"],["主席：國營司副司長及產發署、能源署。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你好。前年我國火力發電占比是82%，核能發電6.3%，對吧？"],["劉副司長起孝：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在我們準備讓核能歸零，我想請問一下，這部分的電力未來要用哪一種電來補？"],["劉副司長起孝：因為我們的能源轉型是減煤、增氣、展綠、非核，所以在核能電廠結束之後，我們就是增加天然氣發電、增加再生能源發電，並減少燃煤發電，目標是這樣子。至於占比，燃氣大概是50%，燃煤30%，再生能源20%。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你說燃氣是？"],["劉副司長起孝：50%。"],["邱委員鎮軍：50%？"],["劉副司長起孝：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：然後呢？"],["劉副司長起孝：燃煤30%。"],["邱委員鎮軍：燃煤30%？"],["劉副司長起孝：對，再生能源20%。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你燃煤還要一直用啊？還有你準備火力發電還是要繼續使用就對了？"],["劉副司長起孝：火力發電，其實包括燃煤跟燃氣都是火力發電。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我的意思是說你這兩個加起來就幾%了？"],["劉副司長起孝：80。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，將近80%了耶。"],["劉副司長起孝：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你認為這個不需要改嗎？"],["劉副司長起孝：這個部分就是說，增加天然氣是因為可以減少CO2的排放，大概是以這個為目標……"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是造成的污染呢？"],["劉副司長起孝：天然氣的污染是比較沒有這麼嚴重，所以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：怎麼會沒有那麼嚴重，我看天然氣的CO2的那個IPCC……"],["劉副司長起孝：是比燃煤減少很多。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，它是差了將近，一個是820，然後一個是490，對吧？"],["劉副司長起孝：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這兩個還算是高的啊。"],["劉副司長起孝：所以我們要努力發展再生能源。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你認為一直長期在使用的這個狀態，對我們國人的健康不會受到影響嗎？"],["劉副司長起孝：我們當然是希望能夠儘量減少污染的排放，還有包括CO2的排放……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為它轉成碳排放也是荼毒人民的肺，我覺得是這樣。","我請問電力公司台電，你們買一度電就賠一度，核四賠了兩千多億也還掛在帳上嘛，目前還不敢銷帳。對不對？"],["郭副總經理天合：報告委員……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們都沒有專業堅持，讓我們執政黨隨便這樣宰割。我想請問一下，現在是不是要漲電價，是嗎？"],["郭副總經理天合：目前還沒有，現在電價審議委員會還沒有召開。"],["邱委員鎮軍：還沒有召開？我是有聽到說，這個部分要推給立法院來扛這個責任？"],["郭副總經理天合：報告委員，沒有，我們是尊重3月的電價審議委員會的決定。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得你們該有的專業判斷，你們還是要提出來，該講話的時候還是要講話，這個才是對你的專業來負責嘛，對不對？"],["郭副總經理天合：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，那請回。我請教部長，我看到你們要成立空氣品質監測與預報中心，是這樣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想請問一下，那剛剛講的，我們剛剛有講到要成立第二級空氣污染防制指揮中心，那跟現在你要成立的這個中心有沒有不一樣的地方？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，過去空氣品質的監測跟預報都由我們的監資司來做，因為我們要強化AI的運用，所以我們把監資司改名叫做環境科技與資訊司，它強化AI數位治理的應用……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這個不是再增加一個部門就對了？"],["彭部長啓明：不是、不是，我們把它移過來，移到大氣司裡面，因為大氣司要負責應變，就從監測、預報到應變，把它整合起來……"],["邱委員鎮軍：只是單位換名稱就對了？"],["彭部長啓明：單位換名稱，然後整合人力，並沒有額外增加新的預算或人力。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以要成立這個是因為我們自己在業務上的考量？"],["彭部長啓明：對，業務的考量。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是什麼氣候變遷委員會開會的時候決定的？"],["彭部長啓明：不是、不是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是啦？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。我想請問一下，做了這個檢測中心之後，如果現在空氣品質超標，然後呢，我們要怎麼辦？"],["彭部長啓明：然後這個中心現在從上游的監測到預報，到最後他們大氣司的應變，都會再統合一個單位來處理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：等於它就有一個跨部會的功能？"],["彭部長啓明：現在已經有了，但是我們希望它的功能性，還有人員的培訓可以更好，讓它大一點點，一起協同作業。"],["邱委員鎮軍：超標之後我們要怎麼辦？"],["彭部長啓明：超標之後，例如說，好，假設有二級，就由我們司長來召集環境部還有各個縣市的環保局一起來做，那如果一級很嚴重的，就是由環境部邀集各個部會一起來做應變。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那有沒有計算過成本，這個要花多少經費？"],["彭部長啓明：這個都在我們原有的預算當中，並沒有增加預算。"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有增加啦？"],["彭部長啓明：對、對、對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：重點是空氣污染最大的來源當然就是發電，不然你也不會叫台電降載嘛。對不對？我們看到民進黨執政快要10年了，能源政策是民進黨政府始終不敢面對的問題，拿著廢核的神主牌搖擺不定，到後來我覺得對臺灣來講傷害非常的大，長期使用火力發電，對老百姓的健康造成的影響是非常大的。我覺得，部長，你應該要儘早來解決這一個問題，我不敢講說你一定要把核能恢復，但是至少要找到一個更好的變通方法，當然也不是無條件的一直用綠能來替代火力發電，您認同嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我也坦承剛剛有一個圖表說到我們的污染源來源裡面的這種固定污染源，例如說電力排放事業，其實我們移動污染源的量已經超過固定污染源了，所以交通也是我們努力的一個目標。剛剛委員提到的能源政策，其實火力發電包含燃氣跟燃煤，燃氣的部分雖然有排放二氧化碳，但是比燃煤少很多，其實二氧化碳它並不會對人體造成直接的影響，而且它的空污量會減少。我們現在如果要發展綠能或是新的能源，在這之前，燃氣還是一個必要的轉圜，當然……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個部分要多久？"],["彭部長啓明：目前如果以我們在規劃的淨零路徑來看的話，當然是希望在2030年，例如說燃氣占比50%之後能夠慢慢、慢慢地往下降，逐步下降直到2050年會更好，可能只剩下百分之二十左右，當然會是更好的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：還要那麼久啊？你們這個還要二、三十年欸。"],["彭部長啓明：對，因為氣開始蓋到用就要二十多年的時間，所以當然，但是報告委員，其實氣是大多數國家在面對轉型時的一個過渡型的能源，因為現在我們的再生能源並沒有那麼快，那麼順利的能夠建立起來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們還是覺得現在廢核是對的？"],["彭部長啓明：我沒有說是對的，但是委員，我在當時算淨零路徑的時候，其實也發現到，核能如果要真的啟動的話，面臨到法令要修，然後還要辦安全檢查、核廢料的處理，還有延役也要一些費用，其實這些都是我無法去預期、預知的，所以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你有沒有考慮過同步來做這件事情？"],["彭部長啓明：目前以我的專業來看，當然這個要經濟部或是核安會來處理，但是以我的專業來看的話，的確是非常的困難，在臺灣，有一點挑戰。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是我覺得你那個時間點拉太長，對不對？我們國人的健康非常重要，絕對不能拖吧！對吧？"],["彭部長啓明：對，但是委員，像核能如果要延役的話，核二加核三就是300億度的電，跟我們國家未來需要的電力，恐怕還需要更多……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我還是覺得，部長，請您發揮您的專業，該爭取的時候就要爭取，好不好？謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員，謝謝部長。","我們現在要休息10分鐘，休息10分鐘之前提醒部長，這個CO2的監測是自動還是手動？"],["彭部長啓明：自動。"],["主席：自動的，這個自動的比較不準……"],["彭部長啓明：超標了！"],["主席：對啊！樓下的教育委員會應該是700，我們是教育委員會的double，再多一點點。"],["彭部長啓明：這樣太超過。"],["主席：一般超過1,000就開始昏睡，其他的委員都8分鐘就離開了，你跟我在這邊要待到結束，所以是不是請部長趕快應變一下，好不好？好，休息10分鐘。謝謝。","休息（10時40分）","繼續開會（10時51分）"],["主席：休息時間到，我們現在繼續開會。接下來請涂權吉委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬",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分是統山的部分所影響但是也有一些個別的凍結目前來講統山的這些部分對僑委會未來的運作的影響大概是什麼"},{"start":32.666,"end":47.97,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們在1、2月的時候我們就已經面臨一個很尷尬的處境因為我們六大官網從1月1號就要開始重新營運的這個相關作為那事實上我們都在去年都已經開標了那開完標以後結果我們的預算被這個刪減了400多萬那我們已經開標到超過這個額數了所以當時我就有點"},{"start":57.152,"end":61.096,"text":"嚇到說不知道這樣子我今年要怎麼執行這個預算會有可能有差一兩百萬的這個缺口那所以這個確實是我們現在很大的一個困難那除此之外包括這個出國旅費還有業務費也是有同樣的影響"},{"start":75.209,"end":97.345,"text":"委員們都很關心我們在僑生的業務上如何去落實跟精進幫助學生在學習或者實習以及畢業之後的就業可是又把我們的國內旅費砍成這樣讓我們就沒有連要去查看這些學校的機率都要大幅下降人數也要縮減那這某個程度說起來是"},{"start":98.486,"end":126.558,"text":"變成讓我們的這個督察機制會減弱所以我們又不得留用的狀況之下我們現在是確實頭很痛這個都是很現實的狀況然後一般業務費是我們有些已經本來預計要給海外的這一個喬教中心或者是僱員做一定的這個設備的改善的結果因為這樣子不但沒有增加還又砍了10%所以這些也被迫今年可能都又要暫停了"},{"start":127.478,"end":146.041,"text":"對,因為我覺得對僑委會來講,這個國內外的旅費應該都很重要,包含剛剛講的其實國內你要去看這些學校啊等等之類的那我現在比較擔心的當然就是剛剛前面講的,其實本來有一些約已經簽了嘛,或者說你已經要做採購的動作那這個其實照理說本來在委員會大家互相討論一定是可以提出來的"},{"start":146.602,"end":161.237,"text":"但太多的這個統山還有一些凍結它是在委員會之後才提出來所以就會造成這樣的問題但我看到凍結的部分也有跟這一個這個海外的僑生是有關係的那我們也只能趕快盡快來安排這個解凍不然的話我看僑委會這樣很難運作"},{"start":162.389,"end":191.929,"text":"我們如果這個解凍案沒有在今年五六月就完成的話那勢必會造成我們下一半年在執行上面對很大的挑戰那學生如果真的進來了那你該補助的沒有補助到位我們也會變成學校都會一直去跟委員陳情然後我們就會很困擾所以不是我們不想付這個錢而是因為解凍案還沒有通過現在這真的是麻煩的地方就是說剛剛聽到前面很多委員其實關心很多事項但這些事項都需要預算執行我覺得這是最困擾的地方"},{"start":192.569,"end":219.887,"text":"那我想問一下因為剛剛這一個我記得是楚雲委員也有問所以我這個稍微快一點就是說因為賴總統在前陣子有這一個記者會他的談話裡面有這個17項措施他裡面有幾個措施看起來跟僑委會是有關的比如說這一個你跟有盟國家合作那有盟國家合作其實跟我們的僑民能不能夠生根能不能夠跟他們做一些遊說這是有關係的然後全球的佈局這跟他們的投資也有關係那最重要的我覺得是最後一個"},{"start":220.667,"end":241.554,"text":"就是我們對中國的這個世獨教育我看到這個的時候呢其實我就記得我們去年在質詢僑委會的時候就已經講過就是說怎麼對海外去宣導他們現在對中國的認識那這個呢其實呢回過頭來到國內其實僑委會這個部分是不是應該可以複製讓國內的學校也可以能夠再對我們的青年學子做這樣的一些這個宣導"},{"start":243.263,"end":268.08,"text":"是 事實上強化學生 年輕朋友的識讀能力我覺得這件事情很重要不單單只有在對國家認同或者是中國統戰的部分事實上因為全球的假訊息Fake News等等的威脅也非常的嚴峻所以如何提高判斷能力 識讀能力這件事情我覺得是我們公民教育裡面真的是刻不容緩的"},{"start":268.88,"end":271.802,"text":"那所以我們在平時除了對我們僑團做這些相關的課程研究以外我們也逐步會想辦法把它在教材的補充裡面也把某些例子融入進去希望能夠引起他們的討論那尤其是在比較民主自由的國家裡面這樣子的威脅挑戰是需要大家全部的年輕朋友都一起提升才有辦法"},{"start":294.415,"end":300.657,"text":"那我們也願意分享我們的經驗來國內所以國內的部分我們包括僑生進來我們現在的新生手冊當然都是跟他們權益比較相關的但未來如果有需求我們也會強化在這一部分來提供一些遇到假訊息 錯假訊息要怎麼來處理跟面對的SOP作業事實上我們現在已經開辦了一個專線電話的專線是七語的"},{"start":321.644,"end":339.546,"text":"然後也有這個email的這個帳號是他們可以投書來呈現一些問題那一旦有我們就會馬上去把這個案例擴大去做宣討對因為我記得我們在去年的時候就有講過就是說我們在海外尤其像認知作戰等等之類的其實我還"},{"start":340.166,"end":360.081,"text":"還沒有進來之前就有跟僑委會討論過這一個課程那當然說第一個課程的設計是重要的那第二個就是網站我們那時候有提到說其實網站應該更多即時的更新讓這一個海外他們也可以去認知到說比如說中國在海外做什麼操作但是剛剛這樣聽起來光是海外網站的建置現在預算可能都會出現一些問題"},{"start":360.822,"end":384.357,"text":"是確實很有影響然後再來就是外交部因為畢竟外交部現在海外的這些宣導的費用現在是被砍成負的所以基本上是沒有辦法運作那就只能靠僑委會看能不能在這個總預算現在還沒有恢復之前能不能做一些補足因為畢竟跟外交部就像兩隻腳一樣如果僑委會這麼能夠雖然我知道僑委會現在也是很困難但是如果能夠協助的話對外交部應該會是一個很大的幫助"},{"start":384.397,"end":392.5,"text":"比較外交部的國傳司全部砍除變複數我們算相對的幸運但即便是這樣也是困難我們會在這個困難當中因為預算也積極很低所以我們六大官網我們還是會努力來經營想盡辦法用最精準的方式快速的方式來達到這個目標"},{"start":406.925,"end":419.962,"text":"對 算是幸運啦不過我看他們當時可能也只是忘記砍而已所以我真的不知道為什麼會這個樣子但是很亂七八糟那再來就是這個統戰的部分因為之前我問過比較多我想問這一個台商這個我先跳過就是這個天下雜誌的報導剛剛其實有蠻多委員問到的"},{"start":422.805,"end":442.582,"text":"那我這個可能想請這個委員長再說一下就是說呢這個仲介目前來講它的確是個嚴重的問題嘛那目前我們能夠譬如說逮到它的這個機制是什麼是有人回報嗎還是我們主動查核呢等等之類是用什麼樣的機制還是說跟其他的部會合作因為對我們來講我們知道這是問題嘛但是要怎麼去揪到這個問題現在執行的狀況是什麼"},{"start":446.85,"end":451.994,"text":"跟委員說明在學生還沒有正式辦簽證進來以前事實上我們在海外的派駐點都有我們的僑秘書他們是會進行第一波的interview的所以他們會去抽查那抽查在問這些學生的基本問題的時候就可以找到一些症狀"},{"start":465.765,"end":493.84,"text":"就是說這一批整個是從哪一個系統進來的那從這裡面去跟他問多問幾個學生以後就會發現說他們學生有些他沒有特別的心防他會知道他會忠實交代他交了多少錢什麼什麼什麼那我們就會開始掌握那如果這一批全部是這樣的話我們就高度懷疑他就是仲介的處理那整批我們就不給他進來了事實上從去年開始我們就已經開始落實這樣的做法那因此呢當然這個凡有利可圖仲介必達"},{"start":494.841,"end":515.98,"text":"所以我們當然也得罪了一些仲介所以有些仲介已經想辦法說我的壞話說造謠的狀況非常非常的嚴峻投訴到總統府行政院外交部各種管道的都有不過還好我們國家有我們調查的機制這些最後都被歸檔而已因為都不是事實甚至有跑到我們的代表處去鬧事的"},{"start":517.281,"end":537.217,"text":"那進來以後事實上學生他們還是有一些人可能當時沒有抓到的因為我剛剛講的說我們有一個專線那這專線學生他可以隨時打電話來跟我們做通報或者是我們也會不定期去跟學校做抽查的時候會找學生來座談跟詢問所以一旦我們問到說你為什麼要特別轉校"},{"start":538.338,"end":542.001,"text":"我們就會掌握某些脈絡我們就開始會循線去調查所以過去兩年我們確實是已經把某些東西鎖死了但是不排除有很多新型態會持續的發生所以我們OS必須要保持一個很謹慎的態度來觀察這些這個"},{"start":558.113,"end":579.331,"text":"可能的違法情勢那不過現在護照跟居留證這件事情已經在去年11月12月被我們全部矯正了所以現在大概沒有沒有人敢把學生的這個個人文件扣留了因為時間的關係那我現在想說剛剛前面我就重整一下第一個是前面有一個面談的機制那就是說他就算來到台灣之後也會有專線所以呢也會有訪查"},{"start":581.773,"end":594.824,"text":"那但我相信這種事情可能有可能會越來越嚴重因為我們的移工啊等等之類講到說這方面的問題嗎一些仲介的問題所以如果在這個之後呢他在執法上或者在查緝上的量能不足的話有可能喬偉會還是要提早說"},{"start":595.56,"end":618.652,"text":"有 而且我們也定期跟那個勞動部保持密切的聯繫有些相關的情勢我們也會通報給這個勞動部然後也會通報給教育部也會通報給外交部畢竟這個裡面還有包括他們簽證的問題還有他們一旦喪失這些學生的資格的時候我們發現那就立即通報移民署就會馬上遞解出境謝謝委員長 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":430,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時28分）謝謝主席，有請委員長。"],["主席：請委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：沈委員，你好！"],["沈委員伯洋：委員長早！一開始我先想說，畢竟這一整年要推動很多的業務，還是跟預算有關……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：我知道僑委會大部分是統刪的部分有影響……"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：但是也有一些個別的凍結……"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：目前來講，統刪的部分對僑委會未來運作的影響大概是什麼？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，其實我們在1、2月的時候就已經面臨一個很尷尬的處境，因為我們六大官網從1月1日就要開始有重新營運這個相關作為。事實上，我們去年都已經開標了，開完標以後，結果我們的預算被刪減了四百多萬，我們已經開標到超過這個額數了，當時我就有點嚇到，不知道這樣子我今年要怎麼執行這個預算，可能有差100、200萬的缺口，所以這個確實是我們現在很大的一個困難。","除此之外，包括出國旅費，還有業務費，也是有同樣的影響。委員們都很關心我們在僑生的業務上如何去落實及精進，幫助學生在學習或者實習以及畢業之後的就業，可是又把我們的國內旅費砍成這樣，讓我們連要去查看這些學校的機率都要大幅下降，人數也要縮減，這某個程度變成讓我們的督察機制減弱，而且又不得流用的狀況之下，我們現在確實是頭很痛，這個都是很現實的狀況。","然後一般業務費是有些我們本來已經預計要給海外的僑教中心或者是雇員做一定的設備改善，結果因為這樣子，不但沒有增加，還又砍了10%，所以這些今年可能也被迫又都要暫停了。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，我覺得對僑委會來講，國內外的旅費應該都很重要，包含剛剛講的，你要去看國內這些學校等等的……"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：我現在比較擔心的當然就是剛剛前面講的，本來有一些約已經簽了，或者你已經要做採購的動作，這個照理說本來在委員會大家互相討論一定是可以提出來的，但太多的統刪還有一些凍結是在委員會之後才提出來，所以就會造成這樣的問題。我看到凍結的部分也有跟海外僑生是有關係的，我們也只能儘快安排解凍，不然的話，我看僑委會這樣很難運作。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的，如果解凍案沒有在今年5、6月就完成的話，勢必造成我們下半年在執行上面有很大的挑戰，學生如果真的進來了，我們該補助的沒有補助到位，學校都會一直去跟委員陳情，然後我們就會很困擾，並不是我們不想付這個錢，而是因為解凍案還沒有通過。"],["沈委員伯洋：現在這真的是很麻煩的地方，剛剛聽到前面有很多委員其實都很關心很多事項，但這些事項都需要預算執行，我覺得這是最困擾的地方。"],["徐委員長佳青：是的。"],["沈委員伯洋：我想問一下，這個我記得剛剛楚茵委員也有問，所以我稍微快一點。賴總統在前陣子有一個記者會，他的談話裡面有提到17項措施，裡面有幾個措施看起來跟僑委會是有關的，比如與友盟國家合作，與友盟國家合作其實跟我們的僑民能不能夠深耕、能不能夠跟他們做一些遊說是有關係的；然後全球的布局，這跟他們的投資也有關係；最重要的是最後一個，就是我們對中國的識讀教育，看到這個的時候就想起我們去年在質詢僑委會的時候就已經講過，怎麼對海外去宣導他們現在對中國的認識……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：回過頭來到國內，其實僑委會這個部分是不是應該可以複製，讓國內的學校也能夠針對我們的青年學子做一些這樣的宣導？"],["徐委員長佳青：是，事實上，強化學生、年輕朋友的識讀能力，我覺得這件事情很重要，不單單只有在對國家認同或者是中國統戰的部分。事實上，因為全球的假訊息、fake news等等的威脅也非常的嚴峻，所以如何提高判斷能力、識讀能力這件事情，我覺得在我們公民教育裡面真的是刻不容緩的。我們在平時除了對僑團做這些相關的課程研究以外，也會想辦法逐步在教材的補充裡面把某些例子融入，希望能夠引起他們的討論。尤其是在比較民主自由的國家裡面，這樣子的威脅、挑戰需要全部的年輕朋友大家都一起提升才有辦法。我們也願意分享這個經驗來國內，所以國內的部分，包括僑生進來，我們現在的新生手冊當然都是跟他們權益比較相關的，未來如果有需求，我們也會強化這一部分，提供一些在遇到錯假訊息時要怎麼來處理及面對的SOP作業。事實上，我們現在已經開辦了一個電話的專線，是7語的，也有email帳號，他們可以投書來呈現一些問題，一旦有，我們就會馬上把這個案例擴大宣導。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，記得我們在去年的時候就有講過，我們在海外可以有一些宣導，尤其像認知作戰之類的，其實我在還沒有進來之前，就有跟僑委會討論過這一個課程……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：當然第一個課程的設計是重要的，第二個就是網站，我們那時候有提到，其實網站應該有更多即時的更新，讓海外他們也可以去認知到比如中國在海外做什麼操作……"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["沈委員伯洋：但是剛剛這樣聽起來，光是海外網站的建置，現在在預算上可能都會出現一些問題。"],["徐委員長佳青：確實是很有影響。"],["沈委員伯洋：再來就是外交部，畢竟外交部現在海外的宣導費用被砍成負的，所以基本上沒有辦法運作，就只能靠僑委會，看能不能在總預算還沒有恢復之前做一些補足，因為僑委會和外交部就像兩隻腳一樣。雖然我知道僑委會現在也是很困難，但是如果僑委會能夠協助的話，對外交部應該會是一個很大的幫助。"],["徐委員長佳青：外交部國傳司的預算全部被砍除變負數，我們算相對幸運，但即便是這樣也是困難，因為預算的基期也很低，所以在困難當中。我們六大官網還是會努力來經營，想盡辦法用最精準的方式、快速的方式來達到這個目標。"],["沈委員伯洋：你們算是幸運，我看他們當時可能也只是忘記砍而已，我真的不知道為什麼會這個樣子，真的是亂七八糟。","再來就是統戰的部分，之前我問過比較多，其中臺商的部分我也先跳過，關於天下雜誌的報導，剛剛其實有滿多委員問到，我想請委員長再說明一下，目前來講仲介的確是個嚴重的問題，目前我們能夠逮到它的機制是什麼？是有人回報嗎？還是我們主動查核等等之類，是用什麼樣的機制，還是跟其他的部會合作？因為對我們來講，我們知道這是問題，但是要怎麼去揪到這個問題，現在執行的狀況是什麼？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員說明，在學生還沒有正式辦簽證進來以前，事實上，我們在海外的派駐點都有僑務秘書，他們會進行第一波的interview，他們會去抽查，透過詢問這些學生基本問題的時候就可以找到一些症狀。這一批學生整個是從哪一個系統進來的，從這裡面去多問幾個學生以後就會發現，有些學生沒有特別的心防就會忠實交代他交了多少錢等等，所以我們就會開始掌握，如果這一批全部是這樣的話，我們就會高度懷疑這是仲介的處理，整批我們就不給他進來了。事實上，我們從去年就已經開始落實這樣的作法，但是「凡有利可圖，仲介必達」，當然我們也得罪了一些仲介，有些仲介已經想辦法在說我的壞話，所以造謠的狀況非常非常的嚴峻，投書到總統府、行政院、外交部各種管道的都有，不過還好我們國家有調查的機制，這些資料最後都被歸檔而已，因為都不是事實，甚至也有跑到我們的代表處去鬧事的。","在他們進來以後，事實上，可能還是有一些學生是當時沒有抓到的，剛剛講我們有一個專線，學生可以隨時打這個專線電話來跟我們通報，或者是我們不定期去學校抽查的時候也會找學生來座談和詢問。一旦我們問到你為什麼要特別轉校，我們就會掌握某些脈絡，進而開始循線調查。過去兩年我們確實是已經把某些東西鎖死了，但是不排除有很多新型態會持續的發生，所以我們always必須要保持一個很謹慎的態度來觀察這些可能的違法情事。不過現在護照跟居留證這件事情上，已經在去年11月、12月全部被我們矯正了，所以現在大概沒有人敢把學生的個人文件扣留了。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK。因為時間的關係，剛剛前面的我再綜整一下，第一個是前面有一個面談機制，他就算來到臺灣之後也會有專線，也會有訪查，但我相信這種事情有可能會越來越嚴重，因為我們的移工之類常常會有這方面的問題，也就是一些仲介的問題，所以如果在執法上或者在查緝上的量能不足的話，有可能僑委會還是要提早說。"],["徐委員長佳青：有，而且我們也定期跟勞動部保持密切的聯繫，有些相關的情事，我們也會通報給勞動部，也會通報給教育部，也會通報給外交部，畢竟這裡面還有包括他們簽證的問題，還有他們一旦喪失學生資格的時候，我們發現就會立即通報移民署，就會馬上遞解出境。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝委員長、謝謝主席。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝委員。"],["主席（沈委員伯洋）：現在請林憶君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-3","speakers":["沈伯洋","徐巧芯","羅美玲","陳俊宇","王定宇","黃仁","林楚茵","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林憶君","張啓楷","黃國昌","馬文君"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00013"}}},{"id":"159220","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159220","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb853af9d55b7e968cfc70f51a359b58cfce1d26ba49c773cda3401a63784263cc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:13:04 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這個大問題然後發覺沒有能力我們找到"},{"start":467.56,"end":487.218,"text":"沒有能力的人然後又要解約然後可能還要吵來吵去誰賠誰錢還不知道然後又重新加了一億再招標這中間到底你們在檢討的過程沒有人要負責嗎跟委員報告的確委員的見解相當正確是因為一個採購的"},{"start":490.06,"end":514.986,"text":"方式導致整個國家重大的工程延宕所以我們會請交通部就前期的這個採購啊那麼他的檢討報告送到工程會或者是我們相關會來瞭解會請交通部來完成這個調查報告好我希望趕快做那再來是"},{"start":517.938,"end":528.224,"text":"我在去年9月30號特別有跟你討論這些事情也不光是我好幾位委員都在討論當時發生的這個問題航廈電吧發生的一些問題那我們討論到其中有一點你給我回答我說奇怪為什麼有這麼多能力可能不太夠的我們那時候講說要渣男廠商我不知道正不正確為什麼他可以一直在這邊"},{"start":542.032,"end":559.254,"text":"活得很厲害什麼都可以飆到讓後面都做不成那時候你也說我們希望能夠建置這些廠商的履歷讓優秀廠商跟不好的廠商大家一看就清楚畢竟發報單位從中央政府到地方政府到鄉鎮事工所"},{"start":559.935,"end":576.242,"text":"你知道嗎大家我哪知道哪家廠商是好還是壞所以這時候有相關的有沒有統一的一個系統建置你說這個履歷其實我蠻期待的但是好像現在只能對工程類這些服務的又完全沒辦法是什麼情況要不要說明一下請處長來跟你說明另外我補充一點就是"},{"start":582.253,"end":608.506,"text":"我們將來這個有不管是承包商或者其他的分包商我們將來這個在101條款的時候啊那麼也會重新修正就能夠希望一方面符合比例原則一方面也關注的到有些廠商這個得標A然後換個名字又去標B那這個我們會透過法制來防度這樣的現象那至於廠商的部分我想請處長來說明"},{"start":610.427,"end":633.681,"text":"目前我們的履歷是針對施工廠商那施工廠商假設有牽涉到他建造或設計的部分我們會在履歷裡面去呈現那不過單獨針對勞務類的設計的或是設計類的技術性的公司我們現在沒有去把他納進來這個部分假設要全面去管理我們系統我們可以去做擴充以上"},{"start":634.161,"end":649.492,"text":"不過我覺得還是要思考啦因為畢竟一個工程或者說一個先進的一個設施能不能做成功你知道嗎每一顆螺絲如果是不行都是最後沒辦法成功啦所以我覺得像舉個例子像李立李立"},{"start":650.313,"end":680.016,"text":"他因為這次我看到我問的淘汰公司你們又上網了又重新了那到底有什麼在標案中間有什麼精進的一個條件嗎他最主要裡面寫的必須要有相當經驗或實績者我覺得這很好還刮乎國外業績均可記錄啦可是我蠻害怕的我就想這個是處長嗎處長你來回答一下好不好就是如果李莉再來投標再來聯合投標可不可以啊"},{"start":680.877,"end":686.562,"text":"我跟委員報我判斷履歷之前所謂的時機只是一個測試階段他並沒有上路的時機所以這個時機的認定要請台積公司務必慎重"},{"start":700.472,"end":725.691,"text":"好啦 我直接說啦 我不要講說光是李立啦像類似這樣的公司甚至在國防領域 聽過很多很奇怪的但是就李立來講 他最早進入台灣能夠得標包括鐵道局或者幾個地方政府的自駕車最主要來源他都說他是美國佛羅里達州傑克遜威爾士自駕"},{"start":727.234,"end":754.775,"text":"這個系統因為哇那個弄得很大所以這個履歷到時候還在台灣還得獎經濟部還要頒他頒獎所以我在講說這個部分我覺得關卡還是蠻重要的誰來把關最後一個建議因為在上次的評審委員在挑選的過程中我們發覺其實每一個領域差一點還差蠻多的但是每一個領域可能都有都會的地方所以在這中間"},{"start":756.917,"end":777.417,"text":"這個這個航廈電吧的部分你找了很多領域當然機場公司一定要電力的有但是你主要以軌道工程捷運工程其實這個領域不太是有一些不太一樣我真的是希望你們建議啊那你不能干預嘛你建議啊你們下次是不是再對於航廈還是電吧哦自駕電吧這種概念啊"},{"start":778.078,"end":804.164,"text":"能不能要去找一下真正在這個領域我覺得他比較專業的人一定有 為什麼呢因為交通部跟我們這個車安中心在去年度就已經有研擬出自駕公車實驗運行安全的指引的草案我相信這個東西一定有專家在後面幫交通部跟車安中心把這個研究出來"},{"start":804.864,"end":824.842,"text":"所以我是希望真的能夠在這麼多名單中間當然有軌道的要自駕電巴這些的實務的系統的專家學者我們真的希望也你這邊能不能建議那個淘汰公司也能夠一併納入讓能夠未來能夠真正的專業投入在審查過程中"},{"start":826.519,"end":848.698,"text":"建立淘擠公司就評審委員審查委員的組成啊那務必能夠多元那包括剛才委員所關注的問題我們會跟淘擠公司來建議還有什麼密集要講的啊委員報告就是說那個如果淘擠公司他組成這個評審委員他要先公開廠商是可以建議當然我們也可以給他一些建議啦"},{"start":849.878,"end":858.263,"text":"那建議啦你這個自駕電吧已經出了一次問題了還是自駕電吧這一系列找幾個專家我覺得這樣比較好好謝謝好謝謝我們魯明哲"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":347,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（10時13分）謝謝主席，有請工程會陳主委。"],["主席：好，陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["魯委員明哲：陳主委，再跟你確認一下那個金質獎的問題，你們是主計還是會計？金質獎屬於公共工程管理業務項下的一個內容，其中可能有十幾、二十個、五十個內容，請問總共編了多少？"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，目前被刪除的媒宣費用220萬是只針對公共工程在查核的時候做紀錄，然後辦理金質獎，這項業務220萬可能被誤殺了，就是我們不是做其他媒體宣傳，只是做金質獎這件事情而已，220萬完全刪除，這樣子我們沒辦法去做宣傳、廣告或替得獎的人做一些紀錄，所以金質獎因為這220萬被刪會失色很多。"],["魯委員明哲：你那3,589萬刪除多少？"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，凍結的是凍結50%。"],["魯委員明哲：我知道嘛，3,589萬是在公共工程管理業務項下的科目，我們先講科目，會計的科目沒有一個科目叫做金質獎，它的科目就是公共工程管理業務，在這一個科目裡面你們要做很多事，其中有一項是金質獎，請問一下3,589萬刪除多少？刪凍多少？沒關係，我知道有刪有凍，3,589萬刪除多少？凍結多少？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為金質獎在工程會工管處的預算裡面，所以工管處的預算1,517萬凍結一半的話，就只剩下758萬，這個不是金質獎的業務而已，整個工程管理處相關的業務都需要這個錢，而金質獎需要1,060萬，如果整個工管處凍結下來，只剩下758萬可以用，包括金質獎以及其他業務的話，根本無法辦理金質獎。"],["魯委員明哲：有關金質獎的部分，因為你們的業務都包含在整個科目裡面，科目本身當然有統刪、有刪減、有凍結，我們都知道，但我們覺得一個大的科目下面，如果項下本身剩下的部分，你可以先去處理的，我建議你先去做前期的處理，比較不急的其他業務放在後面，等解凍再來。這是我給你的建議，好不好？看看能不能達到讓這個事情可以去做？","我先要謝謝陳主委，我看你到機場公司，對於三航廈，甚至三跑道未來的發展，你滿多關注的，我有特別注意到。確實在今年過年的時候特別覺得恐怖，你知道一航廈、二航廈被出國、回國的人潮擠爆了，當未來出入境的人越來越多，兩個航廈的吞吐量根本不夠，服務品質也絕對不夠，現在已經看到是非常、非常嚴重。當時預計三航廈的吞吐量就覺得非常重要，我們看到下表，2019年當年出入境跟過境的人數有4,869萬，你看到最後，2024年就是去年，快要差不多九成多了，使用到機場的總共有4,492萬。請問第一個問題，目前T3航廈的進度56.33%，因為整個完工的進度你是訂在明年度11月，可是我們看到很多配合的相關工程，當然有一些要硬體完成才可以進場，最後一個包括PMS的部分。對於整體是否能夠如期如質完工，目前就你深入了解來說明，好嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員關心。這有幾個部分，有些停機坪已經可以完工，先提供使用，接下來就是北登機廊廳也慢了一些，所以我們要求今年9月15日一定要完成，即9月15日一定要馬上能夠使用。接下來就是主體跟南登機廊廳，整個希望在116年能夠完工，目前桃機公司也全力在推進。北登機廊廳大概在裝修收尾了，希望今年9月15日能夠完成啟用，目前的進度大概是這樣，整個通通完成可能要等到116年。"],["魯委員明哲：這幾天我也跟機場公司了解，我去年問你的時候，原本的目標是希望今年年中北登機廊廳能夠弄好，你剛才講慢了一點，但我覺得要有把握一點，好不好？因為旅客這麼多要進去，相關設施要請桃機公司真的要把工程弄好，不要弄一個半成品，給人家一進去用卻罵得亂七八糟。以工程會的立場，我希望要特別關注這個部分，提醒桃機公司，好不好？","我接下來要講最後一個，就是PMS，當然這個因為你的關注，跟桃機公司最後的一個想法，他是業主。因為我們看到三航廈PMS航廈電巴的情況，我們之前談過就不說了，就是在112年12月25號得標之後一路來的心路歷程，到了去年解約，現在、最新的是3月11號又開始辦招標說明會，方式還是航廈電巴。請你指導他們，因為工程類採購法的部分過去一定有一些問題，所以我有兩個問題，第一個、解約了，我看誰向誰要錢還不知道，那個部分多少錢，我不預判，現在再招標比原本的招標十七億多，變18億，可能是因為物價調整。你覺得這一次發生這樣的事情，有沒有人應該要負責或警告、處分？不是說下臺，但都沒有人要負責，是很虛幻的一件事。這個是大問題，然後發覺沒有能力，我們找到沒有能力的人又解約，可能還要吵來吵去，誰賠誰錢還不知道，又重新加了1億再招標。這中間你們在檢討的過程沒有人要負責嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：的確，委員的見解相當正確，因為採購的方式導致國家重大工程延宕，所以我們會請交通部把前期採購的檢討報告送到工程會，或者是我們來了解相關的部分，請交通部完成這個調查報告。"],["魯委員明哲：我希望趕快做。再來，我在去年9月30號有特別跟你討論這件事情，不光是我，好幾位委員都在討論當時航廈電巴發生的一些問題。我們討論到其中有一點，你有回答我，但我說奇怪，為什麼有這麼多能力可能不太夠的？我們那時候說叫渣男廠商，我不知道正不正確。為什麼它可以一直在這邊活得很厲害，什麼都可以標得到，然後後面都做不成？那時候你也說，我們希望能夠建置這些廠商的履歷，讓優秀廠商跟不好的廠商，大家一看就清楚，畢竟發包單位從中央政府到地方政府到鄉鎮市公所，你知道嗎？大家哪知道哪一家廠商是好還是壞，所以有沒有建置統一的系統？你說這個履歷，其實我蠻期待的，但是好像現在只能對工程類，這些服務的又完全沒辦法，是什麼情況？要不要說明一下？"],["陳主任委員金德：請處長來跟你說明。另外，我補充一點，不管是承包商或者其他的分包商，我們將來也會重新修正一零一條款，希望一方面符合比例原則，一方面也關注得到有些廠商得標A，然後換個名字又去標B，我們會透過法制來防杜這樣的現象。至於廠商的部分，我請處長來說明。"],["陳處長春錦：委員好。目前我們的履歷是針對施工廠商，假設施工廠商有牽涉到監造或設計的部分，我們會在履歷裡面呈現。不過單獨針對勞務類的、設計的或是設計類的技術性公司，我們現在沒有納進來，這個部分假設要全面去管理，我們的系統可以擴充。"],["魯委員明哲：不過我覺得還是要思考，畢竟一個工程或者先進設施能不能做成功，你知道嗎？每一顆螺絲如果有不行的，最後都沒辦法成功。舉個例子，像理立，因為這次我問了桃機公司，他們又重新上網了，到底在標案中間有什麼精進的條件嗎？他們說最主要裡面寫，必須要有相當經驗或實績者，我覺得這很好，還括弧註明國外業績均可計入。可是我蠻害怕的，處長來回答一下，好不好？如果理立再來聯合投標，可不可以？再來一次！"],["陳處長春錦：基本上，當然是不行，就我觀點來看，它應該是不行。"],["魯委員明哲：不行的原因是什麼？"],["陳主任委員金德：我判斷理立之前所謂的實績只是測試階段，並沒有上路的實績，所以實績的認定要請桃機公司務必慎重。"],["魯委員明哲：好啦！我直接說，我不要講光是理立，類似這樣的公司，甚至在國防領域很多，我聽過很多很奇怪的，但就理立來講，它最早進入臺灣能夠得標，包括鐵道局或者幾個地方政府的自駕車，最主要它都說它的來源是美國佛羅里達州傑克遜維爾市自駕系統，哇！那個弄得很大，所以這個理立當時在臺灣還得獎，經濟部還給它頒獎，所以我講到這個部分，我覺得關卡還是滿重要的，誰來把關？","最後一個建議，因為上次在挑選評審委員的過程中，我們發覺其實每一個領域差一點還是差滿多的，但是每一個領域可能都有會的地方，所以在這中間有關航廈電巴的部分，你找了很多領域，當然機場公司一定要，電力的有，但是你主要以軌道工程、捷運工程，其實這個領域是有一些不太一樣，我真的是希望你們……建議啦，但不能干預嘛！建議你們下次對於航廈自駕電巴這種概念，能不能去找一下真正在這個領域我覺得是比較專業的人？一定有！為什麼呢？因為交通部跟我們車安中心在去年度就已經有研擬出自駕公車實驗運行安全指引草案，我相信這個東西一定有專家在後面幫交通部跟車安中心把這個研究出來，所以我是希望真的能夠在這麼多名單中間，當然有軌道的以及自駕電巴這些實務系統的專家學者，我們真的希望，你這邊能不能建議桃機公司也能夠一併納入，讓未來能夠有真正的專業投入在審查過程中？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們會建議桃機公司就評審委員、審查委員的組成，務必能夠多元，包括剛才委員所關注的問題，我們會跟桃機公司來建議。"],["魯委員明哲：好，還有什麼秘笈要講的？"],["陳副主任委員為祥：跟委員報告，如果桃機公司要組成評審委員，它要先公開，廠商還是可以建議，當然我們也可以給它一些建議啦！"],["魯委員明哲：給它建議啦，這個自駕電巴已經出了一次問題了，還是針對自駕電巴這一系列找幾個專家，我覺得這樣比較好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝我們魯明哲委員，以上特別跟各位……敬請各位官員上臺備詢或協詢的時候，請大家要尊重主席臺，因為主委上臺備詢，都是尊重主席臺，請問所有官員，這是立法院，不是菜市場，拜託主委領導之下，所有只要協詢或備詢都一定要尊重主席臺。","另外一個特別跟委員會報告，也就是陳素月委員、黃健豪委員兩位委員質詢完畢之後，我們就訂定休息10分鐘，特別來跟各位作宣告。","現在請陳素月委員來質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},{"id":"159219","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159219","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb7b201321ef5e45ddfc70f51a359b58cfce1d26ba49c773cd06cf9b1052b938545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist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謝謝喔 謝謝抄偉那我們請我們陳經的主委陳主委謝謝委員長"},{"start":15.717,"end":23.865,"text":"不好意思剛剛有事情耽擱了那主委好其實剛剛有其他委員有談到這個我們公共工程委員會還有包括剛剛你的業務報告裡面簡報裡面有談到這個未來這個節能減碳還有淨零碳排也是一個我們工程會的一個主要的業務的內容之一"},{"start":38.919,"end":51.603,"text":"賴總統也在這個國家氣候變遷的對策委員會裡面也有提到這個政府跟民間都要協力來落實低碳生活我剛剛有聽到你跟其他的委員在所謂的零碳跟低碳其實呢"},{"start":57.706,"end":85.065,"text":"目標就算是零碳但是重點是要逐步的推動落實低碳那我們要為了全國的氣候治理來貢獻心力我們要跟世界同步的話我們要怎麼逐步的來推動尤其在公共工程委員會裡面可以做到的一件事在地採購推動落實我們的原物料在地採購我舉一個例子"},{"start":86.587,"end":112.38,"text":"以這個木材來講我們很多的公共工程裡面可能會用到木材那木材我們現在大部分是進口那其實我們在地的國產材現在農業部也正在推動那如果可以在地採購的話那降低這個運送過程的一個碳足跡那就是推動減量那就是推動低碳那我們"},{"start":114.124,"end":127.061,"text":"以距離來說我剛剛講的這個運送的距離如果以每公噸運送木材的碳排放量的亞洲運到台灣來大概每公噸增加18克的這個"},{"start":129.184,"end":145.432,"text":"我們的碳數如果是北美紐澳過來台灣的進口進來的每公噸大概增加約50公克如果是更遠的中南美洲來的進到台灣來的他增加的這個碳排大概有105公克"},{"start":147.893,"end":166.61,"text":"那有人會說 那我們要伐木嗎 國產材嘛 對不對可是我們現在有在造林 那造林呢 事實上我們要有效的如何管理那是最重要的 因為在護山造林之間如何取得一個橫頻這個聯合國的氣候變遷委員會也認為管理良好的人工林會比天然林更能有效的吸收二氧化碳"},{"start":173.857,"end":198.958,"text":"那意思是說 樹木在成長的過程當中長到一定的高度 長到一定的寬度那我們如果可以善用有效的管理的話那會讓我們的這個這個什麼 林木的這個二氧化碳的一個減碳的一個效果是越來越好的所以呢 以林務局曾經估算過每立方公尺的柳山的樹幹"},{"start":200.299,"end":215.821,"text":"可以固定640公斤的二氧化碳同樣重量的塑膠水泥或鋼鐵那碳排放比木材高出20到120倍那所以我從第一個這個是我從農業部領悟"},{"start":217.543,"end":237.367,"text":"署那邊所得到的一個統計資料我們現在國產材的一個生產量是逐步在提升沒錯但是呢如果沒有用政策的來推動的話我想它的速度是相當的慢那所以我也把這個運送的過程當中如果是以建材裡面的木材來看的話它的碳排量我覺得在地採購是可以減少的"},{"start":243.948,"end":247.689,"text":"那這個是跟公共工程委員會有什麼關係來下一頁卓榮泰院長也說我們工部門要率先進行建築轉型來帶動民間的合作嘛我們自己要先做啊剛才有其他委員也說啊是不是我們工部門可以開始來做起啊下一頁我們如何來帶動綠色服務綠色的這個建築產業所以呢譬如說"},{"start":273.888,"end":295.776,"text":"教育部呢也曾經跟我們農業部曾經合作要說我們的國中小的教室的課桌椅是不是鼓勵優先使用在地的國產材那台北市開始在做了那我曾經google一下的那個新聞過去呢陳俊濟部長跟教育部跟我們呢"},{"start":298.02,"end":322.245,"text":"這個在公開的場合也說我們也希望來逐步推動那這中間牽涉到一個有沒有可能在公共工程委員會的架構下有關公共工程的一個共同供應契約的採購委託書我們可以在採購地區就是原產地裡面有沒有可能是加注優先使用國產材的可能性主委"},{"start":323.581,"end":342.902,"text":"非常同意委員的見解就是說要減碳就地取材至少運輸的排碳就減少了嘛那另外林木的部分有效管理人工植林也許七年八年這個木頭就可以用了而且新的"},{"start":343.723,"end":368.289,"text":"成長過程固碳更有效率我們完全同意那麼我們也會在公共工程裡面做相關的討論來做指引或如同剛才委員說的看有沒有辦法相關的指引裡面就直接談到優先使用就地取材這個觀點優先使用我們國內那麼人造林的林木我們來研究"},{"start":368.82,"end":397.039,"text":"因為這個會直接就制度性的去推動優先使用這個在地的一個採購而且在地的一個國產材第二個呢這會呢讓我們第一個產業它能夠越來越進步越來越發展第三個在公共工程的一個低碳的減核表裡面這樣子的一個碳係數跟碳排量是可以很很好的有效率的而且比較明確的來計算"},{"start":399.681,"end":412.74,"text":"給予一個好的數字 那讓我們會推動這個整個低碳的一個公共工程的一個KPI其實是比較有數字有效率的 對不對 主委"},{"start":414.161,"end":434.461,"text":"就是在採購契約也好或相關契約能夠比較明確的指引說優先使用就地取材這件事情那麼來共同協力整個公共工程減碳來達成這樣的目標甚至在低碳減核表裡面"},{"start":435.021,"end":457.145,"text":"也可以所以這有兩件事一個是採購契約委託書一個是低碳減核表如果可以推動的話優先使用在地採購在地的建材好不好這第二個接下來第二個議題就是剛剛李昆哲委員在關心我們這個公共工程委員會在去年有抽查這個橋樑那35座的橋樑需要"},{"start":461.506,"end":475.907,"text":"馬上派休就是所謂的U4嘛對不對那你剛剛有回答李委員是說你們會督促這個不管是中央政府管的還是地方政府管的有沒有提出這個馬上的一個改善計畫那請問你"},{"start":478.41,"end":500.247,"text":"給中央政府所管的部會也好或是各地方政府也好要求在什麼時間內提出來因為我為什麼要特別關心在你們的抽查裡面地方政府的32座裡面台中最多台中有13座那我們要去督促他們有沒有提出要立即修復的計畫"},{"start":501.448,"end":518.556,"text":"他要先提出我們才能來說是不是中央政府要幫忙給預算補助預算大家一起努力的來趕快的來該加強的加強 該重建的該重建嘛對不對進數是多少 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謝謝召委 請一下陳金的主委好 主委請"},{"start":13.496,"end":41.602,"text":"委員長主委長那其實看到今天開會的過程那我們都是尊重各個委員的發言的權利及相關的內容不過還是有一些議事的程序我想曾經的主委也算是我在立法院的學長也是我國大代表時期的學長那對於相關的議事程序也應該都清楚那其實我們在過去很少會碰到說幾乎"},{"start":43.442,"end":65.448,"text":"是沒有碰過說預算可以先執行30%你不夠再來說或者是要院會來解凍這樣的一個流程其實在以前都是沒有碰過的這個當然立法院的生態以及議事程序的變化也真的有時候讓人家非常的錯愕那我先請教一下主委我們的橋樑是"},{"start":69.278,"end":89.961,"text":"很重要的一個交通的動脈跟基礎設施那因為我們台灣的天災地震極端氣候的衝擊我們對於這些相關橋仰的結構安全因為它攸關到民眾的生命財產安全的一個基本的保障所以橋仰的維護管理"},{"start":90.882,"end":116.257,"text":"是一個很重要的議題那在2月26日工程會有抽查全國的橋樑300座裡面有35座的橋樑是達到U4的等級U4的等級就是說它必須要進行立刻要進行養護而且它是預期未休的這個階段那其中中央部會圍管了有3座"},{"start":117.017,"end":123.745,"text":"那地方政府圍管的有32座我要請教主委我們針對這35座橋樑它達到優勢的等級我們工程會會去邀請它進行相關的如何的一個補強的計畫來主委說明一下"},{"start":134.917,"end":151.19,"text":"報告委員優勢就是最緊急要立即處理所以工程會會要求橋樑的主管機關或者是維護機關立即透過工程的方法或相關的方法去改善"},{"start":152.091,"end":174.462,"text":"那因為橋樑的維護有他的維護主管機關上級也能夠去抽查他嘛所以工程會大概就是抽查不是每一座去查那300座這個是透過系統去盤點出來的然後分門別列U1 U2 U3 U4那會要求主管機關就U4的部分立即要來改善有沒有補強計畫這些補強計畫什麼時候會完成簡單說明一下"},{"start":178.477,"end":199.092,"text":"我們就要求這個相關的主管機關那麼針對優勢等級的那必須立即提出計畫那必要的時候工程會會去做審議他這個計畫這個必須要立即要讓民眾看到我們對於這些有必須立即維護管理有潛在立即會發生危險的橋樑"},{"start":200.413,"end":208.893,"text":"那另外就是說有32座的地方政府所轄管的這些橋樑我們如何去督促他做維護管理"},{"start":210.67,"end":230.707,"text":"因為橋樑他有主管機關嘛不管是交通法規的或內政法規的他還是有上級中央主管機關我們會要求內政部或交通部公路局等要求地方政府去改善那這個橋樑呢那當然我們也可以去督導啦基本上我們請他的主管機關去要求地方"},{"start":231.408,"end":251.005,"text":"政府按照等級去做必要的改善這個都必須要加強我們的一個都管的一個能力這個都必須橋樑關係到人民的這種生命財產的安全我對於高齡的這些橋樑我主委我們更進一步來探討全國的橋樑總共有26432座"},{"start":256.578,"end":261.543,"text":"然後有22963座它是車型的這種橋樑30年以上的橋樑有8523座裡面還有6552座它年份不明就是"},{"start":274.011,"end":300.398,"text":"裡面的這些橋樑有超過一半他是地方委管的他的相關的這些資料也不夠齊全他的年份也不明那我們現在每年只能查核300座量能啊大概只有現在橋樑總數的1.1%而已那如果我們的這些26432座橋樑要全部盤查大概要花70年以上了"},{"start":301.331,"end":325.937,"text":"那如果只盤查30年以上的也要30年能量啊 量能是明顯的不足啊主委我們看到在抽查的這段期間其實這些橋仰它還是持續的老化那它的這些危害的風險啊災害的風險它也每天都在提高那工程會對這個橋仰安全有沒有更具體的政策"},{"start":326.657,"end":348.406,"text":"依法這個橋樑的維護主管機關他必須兩年就要去去查一次啦那我們會按照這樣的標準要求相關機關確實務必兩年要查核一次所以不會只有抽查300座而已300座我們是盤點出來所以因為他每座橋都主管機關工程會確實"},{"start":349.727,"end":371.84,"text":"那麼來要求相關的機關每兩年查核一次這件事情我相信這樣子兩萬多座就不會那麼久花那麼久他每個機關的兩年都去查一次那資料我們都會納管這個很重要就是相關的除了這些抽查或是兩年定期的這種檢查的這個制度必須要去加強落實"},{"start":372.941,"end":394.01,"text":"那我們現在來談一下強化橋樑的這些圍管的機制那我們目前全國的橋樑管理的這個系統每年3月跟9月都會通知各機關轄下的橋樑的管理狀態同步要通知工程會來含穩各圍管機關這個程序沒有錯吧"},{"start":394.99,"end":418.682,"text":"另外我的具體的建議我是認為工程會應該跟交通部運營所還有各縣市政府來協助就是說我們要依照橋樑的風險程度使用的連線構造的形式地理的位置還有交通的流量以及既有結構的這些評估等等的項目必須要明列出來"},{"start":419.522,"end":445.751,"text":"我們要建立跨機關共用分級及養護的追蹤機制來建立這些養護的履歷這個是一個很重要因為目前各委管單位有養護履歷但是沒有互相的這種互通這是一個機制目前很明顯的一個缺陷另外我們工程會也要領頭來建立分級查核小組以及查核的程序"},{"start":446.471,"end":472.707,"text":"也要擴大這種新興的檢測的技術還有智慧的管理的應用例如說引用空拍機及AI的影像辨識科技及大數據風險的這種預測的模型來篩選高風險的橋樑來做改善也要結合無人機檢測的新興科技手段來提高巡查的效率以及預警的一個準確度來讓主委簡單說明一下"},{"start":475.029,"end":492.084,"text":"謝謝委員這麼關心危險橋樑的維管我想我們會精進我們要求所有的橋樑危險機關如果兩年查核一次那麼它的數據一定要報到工程會工程會希望能夠建置一個全國這麼多橋樑來分級"},{"start":494.466,"end":506.875,"text":"那每兩年檢查一次的這個數據啊我們也請專家幫我們篩選或建立一個指標什麼樣的指標表示這個橋樑已經有風險了就像剛才U1 U2 U3 U4更"},{"start":511.118,"end":533.124,"text":"更比較說結構啦或者是相關的指標建立出來然後主動要求這個維護主管機關去做改善而不會被動由主管機關就檢測那資料都沒有彙整在一起我想我們可以做的是把這些檢測的資料整個彙整起來來分級來納管好 主委橋樑"},{"start":534.904,"end":563.049,"text":"本席一開始就提到它是最重要的一個交通的動脈以及基礎設施那關係到民眾的這樣的一個生命財產安全的基本保障的這樣一個嚴肅的議題那我們對於相關橋樑的巡查檢測以及相互的維護管理相關的提升安全的這種機制的推動也是主委跟工程會一個重要的工作我們必須來加強以上"},{"start":567.3,"end":567.321,"text":"好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":291,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時51分）謝謝召委，請一下陳金德主委。"],["主席：主委請。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["李委員昆澤：主委早。看到今天開會的過程，其實我們都是尊重各個委員發言的權利及相關的內容，不過還是有一些議事的程序，陳金德主委也算是我在立法院的學長，也是我國大代表時期的學長，對於相關的議事程序也應該都清楚。其實我們在過去很少、幾乎是沒有碰過預算可以先執行30%，你不夠再來說，或者是要院會來解凍這樣的一個流程，其實在以前都是沒有碰過的啦！當然，立法院的生態以及議事程序的變化，有時候也真的讓人家非常的錯愕。我先請教一下主委，橋梁是很重要的交通動脈跟基礎設施，因為我們臺灣受到天災、地震、極端氣候的衝擊，對於這些橋梁相關的結構安全，因為它攸關到民眾生命財產安全的基本保障，所以橋梁的維護管理是一個很重要的議題。在2月26日工程會有抽查全國橋梁300座，其中有35座橋梁是達到U4的等級，U4的等級就是它必須立刻要進行養護，而且是逾期未修的階段，其中中央部會維管的有3座；地方政府維管的有32座。我要請教主委，我們針對這35座達到U4等級的橋梁，工程會如何要求它進行相關的補強計畫？主委說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，U4就是最緊急啦……"],["李委員昆澤：對啦！"],["陳主任委員金德：要立即處理啦！"],["李委員昆澤：是。"],["陳主任委員金德：所以工程會會要求橋梁的主管機關或者是維護機關，立即透過工程的方法或相關的方法去改善。因為橋梁有它維護的主管機關，上級也能夠去抽查它，所以工程會大概就是抽查，不是每一座去查……"],["李委員昆澤：當然。"],["陳主任委員金德：300座這個是透過系統去盤點出來的，分門別類U1、U2、U3、U4，我會要求主管機關就U4的部分立即要來改善。"],["李委員昆澤：有沒有補強計畫，這些補強計畫什麼時候會完成？簡單說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們要求相關的主管機關，針對U4等級的必須立即提出計畫，必要的時候工程會會去審議它這個計畫。"],["李委員昆澤：這個必須要立即讓民眾看到，我們對於這些必須立即維護管理……"],["陳主任委員金德：有潛在立即會發生危險的橋梁……"],["李委員昆澤：對。另外有32座地方政府所轄管的這些橋梁，我們如何去督促它做維護管理？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為橋梁有主管機關，不管是交通法規的或內政法規的，它還是有上級中央主管機關，我們會要求內政部或交通部公路局等，要求地方政府去改善這個橋梁，當然我們也可以去督導，基本上，我們會請它的主管機關要求地方政府按照等級去做必要的改善。"],["李委員昆澤：這個都必須要加強我們督管的能力，橋梁關係到人民的生命財產安全，對於這些高齡的橋梁，主委，我們更進一步來探討，全國的橋梁總共有2萬6,432座，其中有2萬2,963座是車行橋梁，30年以上的橋梁有8,523座，裡面還有6,552座年份不明，就是裡面的這些橋梁有超過一半都是地方維管的，相關的這些資料也不夠齊全，它的年份也不明。我們現在每年只能查核300座，量能大概只有現在橋梁總數的1.1%而已，如果我們2萬6,432座橋梁要全部盤查，大概要花70年以上了，如果只盤查30年以上的也要30年，量能是明顯的不足，主委，我們看到在抽查的這段期間，其實這些橋梁還是持續的老化，它的這些危害的風險、災害的風險也每天都在提高，工程會對這個橋梁的安全有沒有更具體的政策？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個橋梁的維護主管機關依法必須2年就要去查1次，我們會按照這樣的標準要求相關機關確實務必2年要查核1次，所以不會只有抽查300座而已。"],["李委員昆澤：是。"],["陳主任委員金德：300座是我們盤點出來的，因為每座橋都有主管機關，工程會會確實要求相關的機關每2年查核1次，這件事情我相信兩萬多座就不會花那麼久的時間，每個機關都2年去查1次，資料我們都會納管。"],["李委員昆澤：很重要就是除了這些抽查、或是2年定期的這種檢查的制度必須要去加強落實。","我們現在來談一下強化橋梁的這些維管機制，目前全國的橋梁管理系統每年3月跟9月都會通知各機關轄下的橋梁管理狀態，同步要通知工程會函文各維管機關，這個程序沒有錯嘛？另外，我的具體建議，我認為工程會應該跟交通部運研所、還有各縣市政府來協作，我們要依照橋梁的風險程度、使用的年限、構造的型式、地理的位置、交通的流量以及既有結構的這些評估等等的項目，必須要明列出來，我們要建立跨機關共用分級及養護的追蹤機制，來建立這些養護的履歷，這個很重要。因為目前各維管單位有養護履歷，但是沒有互相的這種互通，這是機制目前很明顯的一個缺陷。另外，我們工程會要領頭來建立分級查核小組以及查核的程序，也要擴大這種新興的檢測技術，還有智慧的管理應用，例如說，引用空拍機及AI的影像辨識科技及大數據風險的預測模型，篩選高風險的橋梁來做改善，也要結合無人機檢測的新興科技手段，來提高巡查的效率以及預警的準確度，讓主委簡單說明一下。"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝委員這麼關心危險橋梁的維管，我想我們會精進，我們會要求所有的橋梁維管機關如果每2年查核1次，它的data、數據一定要報到工程會，工程會希望能夠建置一個全國這麼多橋梁的分級，每2年檢查1次的這個數據，我們也請專家幫我們篩選或建立一個指標，什麼樣的指標表示這個橋梁已經有風險，就像剛才U1、U2、U3、U4，例如結構或者是相關的指標建立出來，主動要求這個維護主管機關去做改善，而不會被動由主管機關做檢測，但是資料都沒有彙整在一起，我想我們可以做的是把這些檢測的資料整個彙整起來來分級、納管。"],["李委員昆澤：好，主委，本席一開始就提到橋梁是最重要的交通動脈以及基礎設施，關係到民眾生命財產安全基本保障的一個嚴肅議題，我們對於相關橋梁的巡查、檢測以及相互的維護管理、相關提升安全的機制推動，也是主委跟工程會一個重要的工作，我們必須來加強，以上。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤委員。現在我們請何欣純委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},{"id":"159217","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159217","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb68311076c627f96cfc70f51a359b58cfce1d26ba49c773cdf4276e10a0b5a9ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:41:52 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諸位其實這會期我當召委我說實在啦我們要往前走因為我們"},{"start":18.647,"end":41.014,"text":"執政是四年所以針對問題我還是真的給主委一個非常尊敬的建議就是針對問題我們來解決問題當然立法委員有他的見解我們習耳恭聽帶回去我們去做一個研究但是我說實在連我本席"},{"start":41.554,"end":64.982,"text":"以我對交通委員會所有委員的感覺不分黨派是針對問題解決問題我相信主委也審查預算過你也是老立法委員那大家都了解立法院其實是對事不是對人所以這點我給主委一個建議來"},{"start":67.216,"end":92.097,"text":"另外大家主委你很知道不管是吳主委或你我都非常重視員工的薪資問題這個我們已經有處理但是在這裡我還是要跟主委建議就是因為當然這是行政院裡面訂定的公共工程最低工資不能低於1.1倍這個問題"},{"start":94.059,"end":108.525,"text":"但是那個時代轉變不一樣這個薪資如果你一點一倍這個是最低標準最低要求啦但是我一向主張我也一向非常尊重我們公共工程委員會"},{"start":109.827,"end":128.763,"text":"不要我同意剛才孟愷所講公共工程委員會不能做小應該他有很多的技術面很多的政策面都是要我們公共工程委員會來制定所以這個一點一倍我建議主委"},{"start":129.423,"end":146.178,"text":"研擬一下跟兩位副主委兩位副主委都寫法例的研擬一下有沒有可能把他提升因為這個薪資如果照這樣去算起來是太低的這個我是給主委一個"},{"start":147.763,"end":170.043,"text":"這個良心的建議因為這個薪資低說實在也是非常困難去突破唯一只有我們公共工程委員會統一制定它的低標準把它拉高自然薪資就會拉高所以這個我要良心的建議我們主委在這個部分"},{"start":171.344,"end":188.164,"text":"認真去考慮一下還有一點就是你都用鼓勵加分的方式啦其實自動置花的這些雇主啊或公共工程的這些廠商啊他不會用加分他就可以得到是要用"},{"start":189.125,"end":216.847,"text":"公共工程委員會的硬性規定讓他把低薪把他拉高這個對公共工程所屬的勞工啊是有幫助的這一點我這點我特別跟主委啊建議啊這個部分要較為認真的去思考那當然也要顧慮到其他的法規啦那但是有很多法規在主委可以"},{"start":217.688,"end":233.697,"text":"研擬的當中資方也可以接受然後勞方這裡也覺得你照顧那另外政府也覺得這個部分是有必要去做因為我在想"},{"start":234.597,"end":257.452,"text":"民進黨執政已經九年他對於勞工的權益跟勞工的薪資非常在意的這我知道是非常在意這點對就對不對就不對他確實對於基本薪資的調整確實是蠻重視的這個問題所以我要拜託陳主委在這個部分我還是請你"},{"start":258.813,"end":279.511,"text":"責成你的兩位副主委我們來研究一下有沒有可能1.1把它拉到1.5以上這樣的話可能他的低薪的問題自然就會拉高因為你的最低標準是這樣嘛但是你把最低標準把它拉高以後自然而然調薪的機率就會大增這點"},{"start":280.572,"end":289.007,"text":"我要拜託我們工程會這裡啊要幫全國廣大的勞工啊去做這些事那吉利來下一張"},{"start":290.782,"end":319.677,"text":"像這些像這些什麼應安會的調查員啊 蘇發部的工程員啊氣象這些分析 我說實在你訂那個薪資是太低了太低了因為他的專業專業是不一樣的所以你一概而論去對這些人是不公平的這個我是就事論事啊 特別給主委做一個建議那另外"},{"start":320.953,"end":337.872,"text":"我也每一次我都跟你提公安的問題啊當然公安的主責組織單位是勞動部但是你是監督單位喔你發現問題你要去制定這整個規範要做到什麼應該是要跟勞動部"},{"start":339.333,"end":365.51,"text":"跟勞工部這個監督這個執行的單位要有聯繫所以在這個部分特別這幾年下來確實是有進步但是我還是要拜託我們主委在這個部分確確實實你還是要用一點心把這個勞工的生命財產安全去把它做得更嚴謹這對勞工才會有幫助"},{"start":368.092,"end":380.057,"text":"那最後啊我還是特別要拜託主委啦因為下一張我要拜託主委就剛才孟愷委員他所講的解凍的問題啊"},{"start":381.977,"end":408.197,"text":"我也知道解凍有兩種一種是委員會解一種是宴會解但是我私底下你來看我我還是給你一個建議啊我說先送委員會因為我們委員會只有15個人據我了解我來參加交通委員會我跟你講我們這個交通委員會不分黨派大家都一團合聚針對問題來解決"},{"start":409.958,"end":437.554,"text":"那有什麼困難在委員會講那有必要到宴會去解委員會先解送到大會備案來解這是對我們案子是有幫助的所以都不要去爭論事實有些確實是在宴會來做解凍有些是在我們委員會去做解凍所以主委我說實在啦我還是希望我還是希望"},{"start":438.234,"end":455.596,"text":"我到任何一個地方我也知道這個金職獎這個部分是大家都重視啊包括我們所有委員各黨各派我們都認為這有必要啊那你們做的最好的也是這個金職獎的部分啊當然不能停頓啊那如何去解決"},{"start":457.239,"end":480.481,"text":"當然就是主委你這裡特別特別要用一點技術性的東西我比較建議送到委員會委員會審了以後呈給大會我跟你講反對的機會不會很大所以主委這個我特別啊給你一個建議啦那當然因為我也知道說實在的最近啊這個這個"},{"start":484.109,"end":500.757,"text":"這個謠言滿天輝啦好 謠言下一張來謠言滿天輝啦但是真的 主委以我了解你的處事原則我不希望你跟這些你跟這些謠言去起舞不需要因為你要做事"},{"start":502.591,"end":530.469,"text":"你曾經的主委就是公共工程委員會的主委我就是把所有的問題解決這是最重要所以我今天說實在第一個重視薪資的問題第二個重視公安的問題另外這個我是給你一個良心的建議用這種方式很快就可以解決因為我們要解決問題不要跟這些啊那個那個捕風捉影啊 造謠一大堆我們解決問題最重要嘛"},{"start":532.31,"end":554.663,"text":"因為我們要繼續前進下去所以主委我還是良心建議啊也就是這個這個獎項當然一定要辦啊但是我是覺得沒有必要這些民間團體當然也不是你授意啦我在看是他們心裡面緊張啊但是我認為對執政黨負責"},{"start":558.752,"end":568.677,"text":"無可獲悔但是不能跟造謠這些來做主委以上這三點我還是給你一個良心建議好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":277,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（9時42分）主席，請陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["林委員國成：主委，其實這會期我當召委，我說實在的，我們要往前走，因為我們執政是4年，所以針對問題我還是要非常尊敬的給主委一個建議，就是針對問題我們來解決問題。當然，立法委員有他的見解，我們洗耳恭聽，帶回去做一個研究。但是我說實在的，以本席對交通委員會所有委員的感覺，是不分黨派針對問題解決問題。我相信主委也審查預算過，你也是老立法委員，大家都了解立法院其實是對事，不是對人，所以這點我給主委一個建議。"],["陳主任委員金德：好，謝謝。"],["林委員國成：另外，大概主委你也知道，不管是吳主委或你，我都非常重視員工的薪資問題。"],["陳主任委員金德：有，這個我們已經有處理了。"],["林委員國成：但是在這裡我還是要跟主委建議，當然這是行政院裡面訂定的，公共工程最低工資不能低於1.1倍這個問題，但是那個時代的轉變不一樣，這個薪資如果你採1.1倍，這個是最低標準、最低要求，但是我一向主張，也一向非常尊重公共工程委員會，我同意剛才孟楷所講的，公共工程委員會不能做小，應該有很多的技術面、很多的政策面，都是要公共工程委員會來制定，所以這個1.1倍，我建議主委跟兩位副主委研擬一下，兩位副主委都是學法律的嘛，研擬一下有沒有可能把它提升，因為這個薪資如果照這樣去算是太低的，我是給主委的一個良心建議。因為薪資低，說實在的，要突破也是非常困難，唯一只有拉高公共工程委員會統一制定的低標準，薪資自然就會拉高，所以我要良心的建議主委，在這個部分認真去考慮一下。","還有一點就是，你都用鼓勵加分的方式，其實自動自發的這些雇主或公共工程的廠商，它不會用加分就可以得到，是要用公共工程委員會的硬性規定，讓它把低薪拉高，這個對公共工程所屬的勞工是有幫助的，這一點我特別跟主委建議，要較為認真的去思考。當然也要顧慮到其他的法規，有很多法規在規劃時，主委可以研擬、資方也可以接受，然後勞方也覺得有被照顧，另外，政府也覺得這個部分是有必要去做，我在想民進黨執政已經9年，對於勞工的權益跟勞工的薪資非常在意，我知道是非常在意，這一點對就對，不對就不對，它對於基本薪資調整的問題確實是滿重視的。所以我要拜託陳主委，這個部分，我還是請你責成兩位副主委，我們來研究一下，有沒有可能1.1倍把它拉到1.5倍以上，這樣可能他低薪的問題自然就會拉高，因為最低標準是這樣嘛，你把最低標準拉高以後，自然而然調薪的機率就會大增。這一點我要拜託工程會，要幫全國廣大的勞工去做這些事，舉例說，像運安會的調查員、數發部的工程員、氣象監控分析員這些，說實在訂的薪資是太低了，太低了，因為他的專業是不一樣的，所以一概而論對這些人是不公平的，這個我是就事論事，特別給主委一個建議。","另外，每一次我都跟你提公安的問題，當然公安的主責單位是勞動部，但是你是監督單位喔！發現問題，你要去制定這整個規範要做到什麼，應該是跟勞動部執行的單位要有聯繫，這個部分，特別是這幾年下來，確實是有進步，但是我還是要拜託主委，確確實實還是要用一點心把勞工的生命財產安全做得更嚴謹，這對勞工才會有幫助。","最後，我還是要特別拜託主委，就剛才孟楷委員所講的解凍的問題。我也知道解凍有兩種，一種是委員會解，一種是院會解，但是私底下你來看我，我還是給你一個建議，我說先送委員會，因為我們委員會只有15個人，據我了解，我來參加交通委員會，我跟你講，我們交通委員會是不分黨派，大家都一團和氣。針對問題來解決，有什麼困難在委員會講，有必要到院會去解，委員會先解，送到大會備案來解，對我們案子是有幫助的，所以都不要去爭論，事實上有些確實要在院會來做解凍，有些是在我們委員會去做解凍。主委，說實在的，我還是希望我到任何一個地方……我也知道金質獎這個部分大家都重視，包括我們所有委員、各黨各派，我們都認為這有必要啊！你們做的最好的也是金質獎的部分啊！當然不能停頓啊！如何去解決？當然就是主委在這裡要特別用一點技術性的東西，我比較建議送到委員會，委員會審了以後呈給大會，反對的機會不大，所以主委，我特別給你一個建議啦！當然，我也知道，最近謠言滿天飛啦，但是主委說真的，以我了解你的處事原則，我不希望你跟這些謠言去起舞，這不需要，因為你要做事，你陳金德主委就是公共工程委員會的主委，我就是把所有的問題解決，這是最重要。所以今天我第一個重視薪資的問題；第二個重視公安的問題；另外我是給你一個良心的建議，用這種方式很快就可以解決，因為我們要解決問題，不要跟這些捕風捉影、造謠一大堆，我們解決問題最重要嘛，因為我們要繼續前進下去。所以主委我還是良心建議，這個獎項當然一定要頒啊，但是我是覺得沒有必要，這些民間團體……當然也不是你受益啦，我在看是他們心裡面緊張啊！我認為執政黨負責是無可厚非，但是不能跟著這些造謠來做，主委以上這三點我還是給你一個良心建議，好不好？"],["陳主任委員金德：好，謝謝。"],["林委員國成：好，謝謝。"],["主席（林委員國成）：謝謝主委，接下來我們請李昆澤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},{"id":"159216","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159216","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb6a8ee262de7c03fdfc70f51a359b58cfce1d26ba49c773cdb70c920121590e455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:24:35 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主委本席剛剛您聽您的這個書面報告那本席也一直強調就是說我們一起努力為台灣的公共工程品質來把關更重要是我們要好好的督促我們的公共工程嘛這你同意嗎"},{"start":27.495,"end":51.12,"text":"那所以說 公共工程重點在於是用專業數據來說話不要有任何模糊的數字你也同意嗎好 來 麥克風可以打開 沒錯那本席有看到因為昨天有這個公共工程產業在媒體刊登半版的聯合聲明要求說儘速解凍工程會的預算那本席想要知道"},{"start":52.04,"end":77.776,"text":"主委事先知情嗎是一個廣告我們跟工程產業工會互動密切所以你事先知道我們事先知道有溝通過嗎有說明過嗎因為它裡面的重點是說儘速解凍工程會的預算不能沒有金質獎本席先強調我的核心立場我也認為金質獎很重要一定要辦非辦不可"},{"start":78.476,"end":93.126,"text":"COVID-19的時候我們都沒有延誤辦理金職獎了金職獎是國家重大建設發展當然要辦但儘速解凍工程會預算主委請教你解凍案送來立法院了嗎"},{"start":94.13,"end":108.84,"text":"解動換我們要執行預算30%以後才能送那目前執行到什麼程度了目前還沒有到30%所以你還沒有執行到30%你也沒有辦法送進來那沒有辦法送進來我們要怎麼解我們是"},{"start":109.44,"end":133.84,"text":"我們判斷這種解凍方式因為我們是凍結50%的業務費嘛然後必須院會解凍同意時的凍資這個是遙遙無期但是你要先送進來委員會其實沒有遙遙無期啊 主委本席剛剛開宗明義就強調不要似是而非講清楚來 我先請教去年度公共工程委員會總預算有多少錢"},{"start":135.141,"end":150.698,"text":"將近四億五千萬左右四億九千萬你少了四千萬今年我們核定的預算總共有多少錢它五億五左右五億五多增加了多少費用五千萬是包括人事費還有多增加了多少費用"},{"start":151.158,"end":178.462,"text":"五千萬多增加了公共工程委員會今年核定的預算比去年多增加了五千萬整體經濟增加嘛這是主委剛剛所說明多五千萬這是必然的必然的這也是經過委員會審議經過立法院我們同意所以說立法部門行政部門我們共同認為說台灣經濟發展所以我們有增加工程會五千萬的預算立法部門並未同意"},{"start":178.962,"end":204.092,"text":"有啊如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會最後通過我現在解凍50%就凍了1億左右主委你這樣子就似是而非了如果說沒有同意的話怎麼會到最後通過預算還沒有同意使用預算是不是立法部門到最後通過的通過裡面凍結1億啊凍結50%啊凍三減了1000多萬啊但是你現在你現在執行的數目是怎麼樣你現在執行都還沒有到超過30%啊所以其實主委"},{"start":206.433,"end":225.322,"text":"不用似是而非我們就事論事本席從過去到現在就一直強調其實公共工程非常重要而今年的預算比去年已經多成長了五千萬還有更重要的是到目前為止工程會還沒有送進解凍案我們怎麼樣來討論"},{"start":226.542,"end":251.231,"text":"我想交通委員會的委員一定會本職專業如果說你真的送進來說明清楚的話該解凍我們一定會解凍但重點是你什麼時候要送解凍案進來報告委員是什麼時候可以送解凍案大院的主決議是院會同意時的動之並不是交通委員會來審理委員會審查完畢之後送院會院會也會尊重委員會的意見嗎這個從來未有過的"},{"start":252.571,"end":268.953,"text":"但是重點在於是你什麼時候要送進來這個立法院從來沒有做這樣的主委什麼時候要送進來我們你什麼時候認為送進來還是現在民進黨要搞下鄉要搞這些宣傳所以說就是明明應該是行政部門要送進來的你現在就不送"},{"start":270.396,"end":298.823,"text":"什麼時候能夠送進來我們會依大院的規定送進來什麼時候可以送進來我們依大院的規定如果說你沒有送我們怎麼解你沒有同意動資預算我們怎麼辦金職獎你現在要解凍然後你現在又跟我講說我們要同意但你又不送解凍案我們要怎麼同意金職獎現在是要接受報名的我們要怎麼同意很多工作都在進行實際上還在進行本來延續性的計畫預算法裡面就規定很清楚主委"},{"start":299.758,"end":312.708,"text":"不要是是而非啊預算法本來就規定的非常清楚延續性的計畫本來就可以來做一個使用但重點是你們什麼時候要把解凍案的方案送進來"},{"start":314.076,"end":341.739,"text":"主委告訴國人你們什麼時候要送我們才能夠討論如果委員給我們一個明確的答案什麼時候能夠同意我們使用我們就決定辦或不辦主委這個就是你似是而非你連送進來的說明都沒有然後你就跟我們講說要立法部門開空白支票同意根本荒謬啊我們為什麼相關的計畫預算有些會凍結我想之前很多委員不管藍綠啊我們現在召委"},{"start":343.803,"end":364.341,"text":"李昆哲委員他也有凍結過預算啊但是他會要求行政部門提出相關的說明之後可以解凍我們就解凍但重點是你現在連說明都沒有說明出來你就跟我們講是說一定要立法院先同意我才要送根本荒謬根本凌駕立法委員的質詢權凌駕立法委員的審查權主委"},{"start":369.008,"end":382.98,"text":"法定國家行政機關有可以那麼的傲慢嗎所以主委能不能說明清楚你們什麼時候要送相關的計畫有沒有辦法說明清楚有沒有辦法說明清楚"},{"start":388.72,"end":415.095,"text":"主委你不能反指許但重點是委員會會有本來就有合理的解凍的程序你不用在那邊事事而非無焦點現在就是國人大家看得清清楚楚工程委員會的主委沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你什麼時候要送解凍案你如果說沒有送解凍案的話我們何來可以審查這就是工程會主委的態度"},{"start":417.949,"end":430.834,"text":"我們依法會受解凍本席非常的遺憾我覺得說到目前為止你還是沒有辦法針對問題回答問題沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你們到底要怎麼做能夠送入這個說明"},{"start":432.446,"end":454.009,"text":"行政官員每一位其實下面都在偷笑因為看到聽到主委那麼的沒有這個行政的一個邏輯跟觀念你連最基本的要送入立法院來申請解凍都沒有辦法都沒有辦法承諾的時候然後你現在一直在鬼打牆講說你們什麼時候要同意你們先同意我們再送荒謬荒謬"},{"start":455.875,"end":479.444,"text":"這就像是跟老師講說老師你先給我歐帕歐帕了我才要考試你承諾歐帕我才要考試莫名其妙主委我再請教去年你有說要現實的政府採購法規定公開招標要三家以上的合格廠商才能夠開標但是現在想要修法刪除三家的廠商門檻"},{"start":481.175,"end":506.666,"text":"這個是我們收集各界的意見準備4月辦理預告預告所以4月會出爐4月會辦理預告那預告之後呢預告之後送行政院會審查審查通過報大院來整理那有沒有討論因為過去其實大家有在講說過猶不及有一些部分是說如果說有三家的這個門檻當然可能會造成說公開招標的一個進度上的拖延"},{"start":506.946,"end":526.771,"text":"但另外一個部分如果說解除了這樣的一個門檻未來只要一家就能夠開標會不會有產生其他的弊端有沒有想過如何來做相關的配搭這個各界意見反映很多所以我們中理之後會來預告再聽取各界意見到時候大院審理的時候可以來所以有防弊機制"},{"start":527.671,"end":536.621,"text":"不是 這個我們會再聽取各界意見當中是 你聽取各界意見 但你們不是要先預告嗎4月要預告的部分 你們的房地機制有沒有預想在裡面"},{"start":537.741,"end":557.856,"text":"現在的採購方式跟過去不是電子化的時代差很多啦所以資訊完全公開透明所以我們聽取各界意見之後認為如果維持三家才能夠開標的話往往是造成流標的主要原因所以未來會只要一標一家投標就可以公開招標這是我們準備預告的草案內容"},{"start":558.456,"end":581.269,"text":"好 那防備機制在裡面有沒有設計相關防備機制在草案裡面會有好 草案裡面會有本席等著看我們四月的公告那本席也會討論因為這還是一樣重點在於是提升政府行政效能裡面我們要思考到防備的機制所以說剛剛主委既然已經提到說有所謂防備機制我們期待工程會提出來的版本最後"},{"start":582.315,"end":599.618,"text":"我再確認一下因為本席非常關心氣候變遷因應法所謂2050淨零碳排那其中工程會非常重要的一個部分就是有所謂的減碳作業指引那主委也講說減碳作業參考指引會預計在今年出爐請教什麼時候會出爐"},{"start":601.019,"end":623.169,"text":"114年年底今年年底到目前目前都已經有在做執行了持續在收集資料當中好 持續在收集資料當中所以這個指引本席也要提出因為過去工程會在2022年就已經有發布公共工程節能減碳減核注意事項要求我們各機關訂定節能減碳的減核機制跟目標"},{"start":624.589,"end":646.567,"text":"請教2022年到現在提出來哪些部門有達標哪些部門還有改進的空間這個不是標準我們持續在進進當中將來會改成我們收集相關的這個排蛋係數那麼建立一個完整的計算碳的一個這個系統然後提供給各機關在設計的時候參考"},{"start":648.448,"end":656.293,"text":"過去要機關來填寫這個碳排的接落部分這個政策我們在逐步在調整當中"},{"start":657.534,"end":685.813,"text":"好 那但是本席我們會改成收集係數你還是沒有回答本席的問題啊 主委本席問的是說2022年我們工程會議既然我是可以肯定的喔不管是那個時候你還不是主委那時候是吳主委嘛吳主委在的時候本席也跟他就教過因為淨零碳排本席非常重視尤其是零碳建築所以當時有提出來這個注意事項的時候我們也認為說不要一步馬上要求各部門到位但至少我們了解一下各部門在"},{"start":687.333,"end":712.188,"text":"從2022年開始到現在2025年過去兩年的時間裡面哪一些部門比較做得好哪些部門還有加強空間我們有沒有去做了解不能用這個標準這工程會提出來的然後你跟我講說不能用這個標準減核注意事項是一個定性提醒機關說你辦理公共工程設計的時候要注意到減碳的相關作為哪些部門有做到哪些部門沒做到"},{"start":713.048,"end":740.128,"text":"有沒有去了解因為不是強制性的因為不是強制性嘛是嘛所以主委你講出大白話了嘛第一2022年那時候提出來是工程會自己提出來的那沒有強制性也因此我們就不了解說到底哪個部門真的有比較符合這個標準哪些部門沒有因為工程會也沒有去做管考考核那現在你要再做一個檢探作業參考指引會不會有一個標準"},{"start":741.228,"end":767.527,"text":"減碳的部分各機關他有自己會不會有一個標準會不會又變成沒有強制性你今年年底出來的會不會又是另外一個利益很良善但是沒有強制性的標準工程會的目的是要建立一個比較完整的這個減碳的所有工程的排放係數那這個排放係數是包括工程單項它每個單項排碳多少給各機關去參考"},{"start":769.008,"end":780.006,"text":"您把工程會看小了 做小了工程會絕對不是只是提出一個標準跟各機關參考是國家重大工程的主管機關"},{"start":782.235,"end":802.786,"text":"主委本席提出來是對於我們工程會有非常高的期待我們也希望減碳的主管機關重點在於是你是國家重大工程的主管機關能不能用國家重大工程來符合減碳的標準這才是重點主委"},{"start":803.834,"end":831.013,"text":"本席是在野黨的委員但我絕對不是說跟你站在對立面我們一起督促是要讓國家的重大工程更好請聽本席一句話本席過去就強調如果我們現在要2050淨零碳排往前回推現在只剩25年其中零碳建築是一個很重要的參考指標我之前就提過能不能說從現在開始要求至少公部門先行"},{"start":832.274,"end":858.834,"text":"國家的工部門的建設從現在開始就用零碳的建築標準來去做帶領私部門如果說我們連自己工部門編列預算的建築都沒有辦法達到零碳建築我們怎麼有辦法期待私部門私人的企業私人的建築來做零碳建築所以這一些部分才是我們希望工程會能夠跳出來當領頭羊的部分我可以說明嗎每一個工程有他的目標"},{"start":859.815,"end":887.863,"text":"包括結構安全包括方便性等等減碳是其中之一所以各部門的設計是一個最適設計達到一個最好的目標減碳跟安全跟什麼是不衝突的不會因為減碳所以說犧牲安全不會因為減碳而犧牲相關的一個目標如果主委你還停留在過去20年前這種思維的話那我真的很擔憂我真的非常非常的擔憂結構不同"},{"start":889.463,"end":911.917,"text":"所以你要選擇鋼構有選擇鋼構的理由那我跟委員報告選擇鋼構你也可以用零碳建築的方向任何事情都會有排碳沒有零碳建築可以用各種的政策目標手段2014年英國就已經宣布他們接下來2014年之後的國家重大公共工程都是用零碳建築"},{"start":912.777,"end":932.797,"text":"別的國家做得到你現在2025年10多年之後你跟我們講說沒辦法要不要請教一下環境部我們現在在呼吸就在排碳了所以不會有零碳建築這件事情主委這樣子你完全忽略跟羅浮根不了解零碳建築的定義沒有零碳這件事情我們呼吸都在排碳"},{"start":934.675,"end":960.175,"text":"主委怎麼會有零碳建築這件事情沒關係這個是公共工程委員會的主委所定立的方向請各位媒體朋友記得主委這一句話如果說連我們國家重大公共工程的主管機關都跟世界趨勢背道而馳的話那這就是民進黨政府的態度這就是現在環境部要定出來如果說連公共工程委員會都講說這個是沒有這件事情的話那代表國家從頭到尾都在騙人"},{"start":962.917,"end":979.336,"text":"國家要這樣騙人嗎你要用這樣子的一個話術主委本席很務實的很專業的很理性的要來跟你做討論但是你用這樣的一個方向其實凸顯的就是你對於本身的公共工程掌握的真的不夠透徹"},{"start":980.836,"end":995.456,"text":"我非常遺憾 謝謝跟大會報告一下我是代理召委那我們也尊重這個相關的議事的程序每位委員是6加2分鐘"},{"start":997.631,"end":1022.596,"text":"其實另外加時的時間其實已經超過6分鐘其實已經再加8分鐘了那我們都開飯店不怕人家吃飯了但他終究是有營業時間超過營業時間我們很難再招待下去主委未來備刑官員好好針對問題回答問題我都雙方都尊重我雙方都尊重謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":114,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時24分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請陳主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員金德：委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委好。主委，本席剛剛聆聽你的書面報告，本席也一直強調，我們一起努力為臺灣的公共工程品質來把關，更重要的是，我們要好好的督促我們的公共工程，這你同意嘛？"],["陳主任委員金德：同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以公共工程重點在於是用專業數據來說話，不要有任何模糊的數字，你也同意嘛？"],["陳主任委員金德：同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，來，麥克風可以打開。"],["陳主任委員金德：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席昨天有看到公共工程產業在媒體刊登半版的聯合聲明，要求儘速解凍工程會的預算，本席想要知道，主委事先知情這個廣告嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們跟各工程產業公會互動密切，我們事先知道他們有這樣建議。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你事先知道，有溝通過嗎？有說明過嗎？因為它的重點是儘速解凍工程會的預算，不能沒有金質獎，本席先強調我的核心立場，我也認為金質獎很重要，一定要辦、非辦不可，COVID-19的時候我們都沒有延誤辦理金質獎了，金質獎是國家重大建設發展，當然要辦，但儘速解凍工程會預算，主委，請教解凍案送來立法院了嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：解凍案要執行預算30%以後才能送。"],["洪委員孟楷：目前執行到什麼程度了？"],["陳主任委員金德：目前還沒有到30%。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你還沒有執行到30%，也沒有辦法送進來，那我們要怎麼解？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們判斷這種解凍方式因為是凍結50%的業務費，必須院會解凍、同意始得動支，這是遙遙無期啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：但是你要先送進來委員會，其實沒有遙遙無期啊！主委，本席剛剛開宗明義就強調不要似是而非，講清楚。我先請教，去年度公共工程委員會總預算有多少錢？"],["陳主任委員金德：將近4億5,000萬左右。"],["洪委員孟楷：是4億9,000萬，你少了4,000萬。今年我們核定的預算總共有多少錢？"],["陳主任委員金德：大概5億5左右。"],["洪委員孟楷：5億5，多增加了多少費用？"],["陳主任委員金德：5,000萬是包括人事費，還有……"],["洪委員孟楷：多增加了多少費用？"],["陳主任委員金德：5,000萬，包括增加了加薪……"],["洪委員孟楷：公共工程委員會今年核定的預算比去年多增加了5,000萬。"],["陳主任委員金德：整體經濟增加嘛！所以業務增加……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是主委剛剛所說的……"],["陳主任委員金德：多5,000萬這是必然的。"],["洪委員孟楷：必然的？這也是經過委員會審議、經過立法院我們同意，立法部門、行政部門共同認為臺灣經濟發展，所以我們有增加工程會5,000萬的預算。"],["陳主任委員金德：立法部門並未同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：有啊！如果說沒有同意的話，怎麼會最後通過。"],["陳主任委員金德：要先解凍50%，就凍了1億左右。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委你這樣子就是似是而非了。如果沒有同意的話，怎麼會到最後通過預算？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為還沒有同意使用。"],["洪委員孟楷：預算是不是立法部門最後通過的？"],["陳主任委員金德：通過裡面的凍結1億、凍結50%啊！刪減了一千多萬。"],["洪委員孟楷：但你現在執行的數目是怎麼樣？你現在執行都還沒有超過30%。所以主委不用似是而非，我們就事論事。"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席從過去到現在就一直強調公共工程非常重要，而今年的預算比去年已經多成長了5,000萬，還有更重要的是，到目前為止工程會還沒有送進解凍案，我們該怎麼樣討論？我想交通委員會的委員一定會秉持專業，如果你真的送進來說明清楚的話，該解凍一定會解凍，但重點是你什麼時候要送解凍案進來？什麼時候可以送解凍案？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，大院的主決議是院會同意始得動支，並不是交通委員會來審理……"],["洪委員孟楷：委員會審查完畢之後送院會，院會也會尊重委員會的意見。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個從來未有過的。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是重點在於是你什麼時候送進來？"],["陳主任委員金德：立法院從來沒有做這樣的處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委什麼時候要送進來？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們依照……"],["洪委員孟楷：你認為什麼時候要送進來？還是現在民進黨要搞下鄉、搞這些宣傳，所以明明應該是行政部門要送進來的，你現在就不送！什麼時候能夠送進來？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，我們會依大院的規定送進來。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候可以送進來？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們依大院規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果說你沒有送，我們怎麼解？"],["陳主任委員金德：你沒有同意動支預算，我們怎麼辦金質獎？"],["洪委員孟楷：你現在要解凍，然後你現在又跟我講我們要同意，但你又不送解凍案，我們要怎麼同意？"],["陳主任委員金德：金質獎現在就要接受報名了。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們要怎麼同意？"],["陳主任委員金德：很多工作都在進行。要辦不辦……"],["洪委員孟楷：時程都還在進行，本來延續性的計畫在預算法裡就規定的很清楚，主委不要似是而非。"],["陳主任委員金德：這是當年度的預算。"],["洪委員孟楷：預算法本來就規定的非常清楚，延續性的計畫，本來就可以使用。"],["陳主任委員金德：這是當年度的預算。"],["洪委員孟楷：但重點是你們什麼時候要把解凍案的方案送進來？主委，告訴國人，你們什麼時候要送，我們才能夠討論？"],["陳主任委員金德：如果委員給我們一個明確的答案什麼時候同意我們使用，我們就決定辦或不辦？"],["洪委員孟楷：主委這個就是你似是而非，你連送進來的說明都沒有，然後你就要我們立法部門開空白支票同意，根本荒謬啊！我們為什麼相關計畫的預算有些會凍結？不管藍綠之前很多委員，現在召委李昆澤委員也有凍結過預算啊！他會要求行政部門提出相關的說明之後，可以解凍我們就解凍，但重點是你現在連說明都沒有出來，你就跟我們說一定要立法院先同意我才要送，根本荒謬。"],["陳主任委員金德：那請問委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：根本凌駕立法委員的質詢權、凌駕立法委員的審查權。主委，法定國家行政機關可以那麼傲慢嗎？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，院會同意始得動支這件事，很難執行。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，能不能說明清楚你們什麼時候要送相關的計畫？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，院會怎麼解凍，到現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有辦法說明清楚？"],["陳主任委員金德：那請問委員，院會如何解凍？程序上怎麼解凍？"],["洪委員孟楷：主委你不能反質詢。"],["陳主任委員金德：我是請教……"],["洪委員孟楷：但重點是委員會本來就有合理的解凍程序，你不用在那邊似是而非、模糊焦點。"],["陳主任委員金德：我從來沒碰過院會同意始得動支這種解凍方式。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在國人大家看得清清楚楚，工程委員會的主委沒有辦法向國人說明清楚什麼時候要送解凍案？如果說沒有送解凍的話，我們何來可以審查？這就是工程會主委的態度，對吧？"],["陳主任委員金德：我們依法會送解凍案，請大院幫忙。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席非常的遺憾，我覺得到目前為止你還是沒有辦法針對問題回答問題，沒有辦法向國人說明清楚你們到底要怎麼做，能夠送入解凍說明。其實行政官員每一位都在下面偷笑，因為看到、聽到主委那麼沒有行政的邏輯跟觀念，你連最基本的要送入立法院來申請解凍都沒有辦法承諾的時候，還一直鬼打牆說我們什麼時候先同意你們再送，荒謬！這就像是跟老師講說「老師你先承諾給我all pass，我才要考試」，莫名其妙。","主委，我再請教，去年你說現行政府採購法的規定，公開招標要3家以上的合格廠商才能夠開標，但是現在想要修法刪除3家的廠商門檻，是不是？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個是我們蒐集各界的意見準備4月辦理修法內容的預告。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以4月會出爐？"],["陳主任委員金德：4月會辦理預告。"],["洪委員孟楷：那預告之後呢？"],["陳主任委員金德：預告後送行政院院會審查，通過後報大院審理。"],["洪委員孟楷：那有沒有討論？因為過去大家有在講過猶不及，有些部分如果有3家的門檻，可能會造成公開招標進度的拖延，但另外一個部分，如果解除了這樣的門檻，未來只要1家就能夠開標，會不會產生其他的弊端？有沒有想過如何來做相關的配套？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個各界意見反映很多，所以我們綜理之後會預告，再聽取各界意見，到時候大院審理的時候，可以完成實質審查。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以有防弊機制？"],["陳主任委員金德：不是，這個我們還在聽取各界意見當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：你聽取各界意見，但你們不是要先預告嗎？你們的防弊機制有沒有預想在4月的預告裡面？"],["陳主任委員金德：現在的採購方式跟過去不是電子化的時代差很多，資訊完全公開透明，所以我們聽取各界意見之後，認為如果維持3家才能夠開標，往往是造成流標的主要原因……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以未來會只要1家投標就可以公開招標。"],["陳主任委員金德：這是我們準備預告的草案內容。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，那在裡面有沒有設計防弊機制？"],["陳主任委員金德：在草案裡面會有相關防弊機制。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，草案裡面會有，本席等著看我們4月的公告。那本席也會討論，因為還是一樣，重點在於提升政府行政效能裡面，我們要思考到防弊機制，所以剛剛主委既然已經提到防弊機制，我們期待工程會提出來的版本。","最後我再確認一下，因為本席非常關心氣候變遷因應法所謂的2050淨零碳排，其中工程會非常重要的部分就是所謂的減碳作業指引，主委也說減碳作業參考指引預計在今年出爐，請教什麼時候會出爐？"],["陳主任委員金德：114年年底。"],["洪委員孟楷：今年年底，目前都已經有在執行了？"],["陳主任委員金德：持續在蒐集資料當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，持續在蒐集資料當中。所以這個指引本席也要提出，因為過去工程會在2022年就已經有發布「公共工程節能減碳檢核注意事項」，要求各機關訂定節能減碳的檢核機制跟目標。請教從2022年提出來到現在，哪些部門有達標，哪些部門還有改進的空間？"],["陳主任委員金德：這個不是標準，我們持續在精進當中，將來會改成我們蒐集相關的排碳係數，建立一個完整計算碳的系統，然後提供給各機關在設計的時候參考，過去要機關來填寫碳排的揭露部分，這個政策我們在逐步調整當中，我們會改成蒐集係數。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，你還是沒有回答本席的問題。"],["陳主任委員金德：這個也……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席問的是，2022年工程會既然……我是可以肯定的，雖然那個時候你還不是主委，那時候是吳主委，吳主委在的時候本席也跟他就教過，因為淨零碳排本席非常重視，尤其是零碳建築，所以當時提出這個注意事項的時候，我們也認為不要馬上要求各部門一步到位，但我們至少了解一下各部門從2022年開始到現在2025年，過去兩年的時間裡面，哪一些部門做得比較好，哪些部門還有加強的空間，你們有沒有去做了解？"],["陳主任委員金德：不能用這個標準，因為檢核……"],["洪委員孟楷：不能用這個標準？這是工程會提出來的，然後你跟我講說不能用這個標準？"],["陳主任委員金德：檢核注意事項是一個定性，提醒機關辦理公共工程設計的時候要注意到減碳的相關作為，我們並沒有……"],["洪委員孟楷：哪些部門有做到，哪些部門沒做到？有沒有去了解？"],["陳主任委員金德：因為不是強制性的。"],["洪委員孟楷：因為不是強制性嘛。"],["陳主任委員金德：不是強制性的。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛，主委，所以你講出大白話了。"],["陳主任委員金德：而且這個方向……"],["洪委員孟楷：第一，2022年那時候是工程會自己提出來的，沒有強制性，也因此我們不了解到底哪個部門真的有比較符合這個標準，哪些部門沒有，因為工程會也沒有去做管考、考核。現在你要再做一個減碳作業參考指引，會不會有一個標準？"],["陳主任委員金德：減碳的部分各機關自己有……"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會有一個標準？會不會又變成沒有強制性？你今年年底提出來的會不會又是另外一個立意很良善，但是沒有強制性的標準？"],["陳主任委員金德：我再跟委員說明，工程會的目的是要建立一個比較完整的、所有工程減碳的排放係數，這個排放係數是包括工程單項，每個單項排碳多少，給各機關去參考。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是啊！主委，您把工程會看小了、做小了，工程會絕對不是只是提出一個標準給各機關參考，是國家重大工程的主管機關。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，減碳有減碳的主管機關。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席提出來是對於工程會有非常高的期待，我們也希望……"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，減碳有減碳的主管機關。"],["洪委員孟楷：減碳有減碳的主管機關，重點在於你是國家重大工程的主管機關，能不能讓國家重大工程符合減碳的標準，這才是重點。"],["陳主任委員金德：我們針對工程的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席是在野黨的委員，但我絕對不是跟你站在對立面，我們一起督促是要讓國家的重大工程更好。請聽本席一句話，本席過去就強調，如果我們現在要達成2050淨零碳排，往前回推，現在只剩25年，其中零碳建築是一個很重要的參考指標。我之前就提過，能不能從現在開始要求，至少公部門先行，國家的、公部門的建設，從現在開始就用零碳的建築標準去做，帶領私部門？如果我們連自己公部門編列預算的建築，都沒有辦法達到零碳建築，我們怎麼有辦法期待私部門、私人的企業、私人的建築來做零碳建築？"],["陳主任委員金德：委員，我可以說明嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：所以這些部分才是我們希望工程會能夠跳出來當領頭羊的部分。"],["陳主任委員金德：我可以說明嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，來，請說。"],["陳主任委員金德：每一個工程有它的目標，包括結構安全、方便性等等，減碳是其中之一，所以各部門的設計是一個最適設計，達到一個最好的目標，所以所謂……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，減碳跟安全是不衝突的。"],["陳主任委員金德：怎麼會……"],["洪委員孟楷：不會因為減碳所以犧牲安全，不會因為減碳而犧牲相關的目標。如果主委還停留在過去20年前這種思維的話，我真的很擔憂，我真的非常非常擔憂。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，鋼構跟磚造完全不同，排碳不同，結構不同，所以要選擇鋼構，有選擇鋼構的理由。"],["洪委員孟楷：我跟你講，主委，選擇鋼構，你也可以用零碳建築的方向……"],["陳主任委員金德：我跟委員報告，沒有什麼零碳建築這件事情。"],["主席（李委員昆澤代）：大會報告一下，大會報告……"],["陳主任委員金德：任何事情都會有排碳，沒有零碳建築這件事情。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以用各種的政策目標手段，2014年英國就已經宣布他們接下來在2014年之後的國家重大公共工程都是用零碳建築。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：別的國家做得到，現在2025年，過了十多年之後你跟我們講說沒辦法，要不要請教一下環境部？"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，我們現在呼吸就在排碳了，所以不會有零碳建築這件事。"],["主席：好，大會報告一下……"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，這樣子你完全忽略跟模糊，也不了解零碳建築的定義。"],["陳主任委員金德：我是特別跟委員說明，沒有零碳這件事情。"],["主席：大會報告一下，大會報告一下……"],["洪委員孟楷：零碳建築……"],["陳主任委員金德：我們呼吸都在排碳，怎麼會有零碳建築這件事情？"],["洪委員孟楷：主委……"],["主席：先等一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，這個是公共工程委員會主委所訂立的方向，請各位媒體朋友記得主委這一句話，如果連我們國家重大公共工程的主管機關，都跟世界趨勢背道而馳的話，這就是民進黨政府的態度，這就是現在環境部要訂出來的，如果連公共工程委員會都講沒有這件事情的話……"],["陳主任委員金德：可以減碳，但是沒有零碳這件事。"],["洪委員孟楷：代表國家從頭到尾都在騙人，國家要這樣騙人嗎？你要用這樣子的一個話術……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委，本席很務實的、很專業的、很理性的要來跟你做討論，但是你用這樣的一個方向，其實凸顯的就是你對於本身公共工程的掌握真的不夠透澈，我非常遺憾，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員金德：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。跟大會報告一下，我是代理召委，我們也尊重相關的議事程序，每位委員是6加2分鐘，其實另外加時的時間已經超過6分鐘，已經再加8分鐘了。我們開飯店不怕人家吃飯，但它終究是有營業時間，超過營業時間我們很難再招待下去。"],["洪委員孟楷：請主委、未來備詢的官員好好針對問題回答問題，就不用講這麼久。"],["主席：我雙方都尊重，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。"],["主席：現在請林國成召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":222,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-23-3","speakers":["林國成","洪孟楷","李昆澤","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","廖先翔","徐富癸","許智傑","邱若華","鍾佳濱","游顥","陳俊宇","張啓楷","陳冠廷"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期交通委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院公共工程委員會主任委員陳金德列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00014"}}},{"id":"159215","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159215","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb5c60fd5049fc04f8ad7e46c29134393cce1d26ba49c773cd97110b78856a118c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:16:21 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有請彭部長好 請部長待會打呼了 抱歉在這邊做個宣告等一下請待會邱正興委員執行完畢之後我們休息十分鐘好 謝謝 請繼續"},{"start":23.595,"end":44.761,"text":"部長好 那想要請教目前全台的這個規劃已經規劃7座天然氣接收站那包含台中港的這5街台塑的6街等新增的站體那暫時然而我們的政府好像從未針對全台接收站的總量進行一個上位的政策的環評"},{"start":46.241,"end":70.197,"text":"僅是以個案的方式審查所以導致各接收站的累積性的環境衝擊完全沒有納入評估那請問部長在沒有進行全台的這個全台性的政策環評的這個狀況下要如何確保這個七座的接收站不會對於我們西部的沿海生態系比如說白海豚、珊瑚郊區造成不可逆的破壞"},{"start":71.258,"end":97.285,"text":"因為部長我們台灣的西部海岸大約有460公里就有7座天然氣的接收站平均每65公里平均每65公里就有一座天然氣接收站那依照2024年這個GGIT的資料全球興建中及規劃興建天然氣的接收站大概目前是只有中國大陸印度和越南比我們多"},{"start":97.845,"end":114.755,"text":"那換算下來我們現在應該算是全球的天然氣接收在密度最高的國家所以想要請教部長或者是我們經濟部的代表全球數據在這裡難道我們還是要繼續不用依照目前環評法第26條進行政策環評嗎"},{"start":118.018,"end":133.608,"text":"因為政策環評需要目的事業局管機關跟我們提出那我環境部無法對這個直接提那你認為是不是應該要如果說因為這個移煤轉氣是我們過去這個政府的這個政策這個是既定的政策"},{"start":133.868,"end":153.623,"text":"沒關係部長你覺得是不是目前進行到這個階段雖然目的世界主管機關沒有提出那以你環境部的角度你是否認為應該要進行這個所謂的政策環評包委員其實如果各種的例如說太陽能的發展能源的發展如果有一個政策環評讓社會可以有充分的共識我們當然歡迎但是也非您支持嘛"},{"start":154.063,"end":178.082,"text":"其實你支持應該要但是我們也支持這種以煤轉氣因為其實我們過去燃煤其實造成風物比較嚴重我剛剛問的是兩件事你不能問A答B我就問說你支不支持你認不認為這個事情已經讓我們台灣算是西部海岸我們的密度最高接收器的密度最高天然氣接收站的密度最高是不是應該要你是不是支持應該要做所謂的政策環評"},{"start":179.003,"end":200.24,"text":"報委員因為還有一個也跟我們報委像新加坡大概95%也都是燒天然氣啊沒關係部長我想要問的就是依照我國的狀況啊我跟你說政策政府政策環境影響評估作業辦法的第三條規定下列有這個政策有影響環境之餘者應實施環境影響評估嘛那其中第五款的內容可否請我們部長唸出來啊這個"},{"start":207.402,"end":233.192,"text":"這個目前如果是政策環評推動這些東西其實當然能源政策是一項啦但是政策環評是一個事前的溝通它並對於個案是沒有強制力的所以部長但是問題就是這上面其實寫的還是贏不是得喔所以我意思就是說如果我們經濟部鴕鳥型態環境部也不管兩個部會都是鴕鳥型態的話那這樣算不算行政怠惰因為你剛剛也說你覺得應該要去溝通這件事情而且應該做這樣的政策環評嘛對不對"},{"start":235.004,"end":258.109,"text":"如果說有更多的溝通當然是好事但是這個不會影響到個別的影響因為政策環比我覺得會耶 為什麼以五街為例喔台電規劃在台中港外面就是現在有這個台灣媽祖與寶玉聯盟已經提出白海豚誤闖港區致死案例顯示既有四街還有台中港擴建與五街的疊加效應可能超出生態的承載力"},{"start":260.009,"end":277.521,"text":"那所以我剛剛講的就是因為目前為止我們現行都是逐岸審查模式可能沒有辦法去評估區域性的生態衝擊尤其是多個戰體發生的時候所以另外經濟部宣稱七階接收站完工後天然氣進口量將從"},{"start":280.482,"end":299.307,"text":"2000萬噸提升至3900萬噸以滿足非核家園政策下燃氣發電佔比50%的目標但是這也不是我講的中興大學也研究指出若再生能源進度延宕可能過度依賴天然氣將使接收站的負載率長期超標也反正所謂供氣風險"},{"start":300.973,"end":324.771,"text":"所以我想要請教就是我剛剛說的就是他是你是主案主案的審可是你並沒有針對整件事情對環境的衝擊有一個更上位的所謂的政策環評喔所以我也想要請教一下那如果七接我們經濟部的代表七接接收站的數量設定是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提請經濟部"},{"start":329.193,"end":351.918,"text":"報告委員那有關這個天然氣接收站的這個興建那確實是依照我們這個能源轉型的這個政策的這個目標去去做這個相關的接收站的一個興建那所以這個那我想要請問那如果如果再生能源沒有達到36%的目標的話是否需要再增建接收站那請問要達標如果請問要達標的話要擴建多少才夠"},{"start":354.844,"end":368.701,"text":"目前我們天然氣發電的這個佔比是以50%的這個目標為是啦所以我剛剛就問說你們是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提然後去設定這七個七座"},{"start":371.058,"end":398.467,"text":"欸再生能源部分是另外再生能源大概20%的這個目標沒有反過來講就是說如果再生能源沒有達標那你不夠你會不會要再增加所謂的天然氣的部分就各有各的一個目標要去努力去實施所以嘛那你還是沒回答我問題嘛所以我要講的事情就是部長啊就是如果沒有經過政策環評那只是為了達到數字而盲目開發又沒辦法說出到底可不可以達標然後說兩邊都要努力達標那最後你沒有達標的話"},{"start":399.307,"end":426.007,"text":"那對於我們環境的衝擊會是什麼對於這個政策的環評有沒有去做一個全方位的檢視我覺得這就是我很想表達的所以我是想要說如果我們還是不面對不去做這件事情的話民進黨現在執政你們現在執政的做法就是是不是就各個突破我就單一個點單一個點點來看那這樣子可能真的會忽視掉整個政策對於我們環境的衝擊如果整體來看的因為它可能有疊加的效應嘛"},{"start":426.767,"end":442.613,"text":"所以因為如果不做的話那是不是這個評估作業辦法也可以就廢掉不要用了所以我要講的事情是要請部長認真考慮不只是五接而是全台的這個接收站跟除氣場的累積性的環評報告跟總量管制的方案"},{"start":443.717,"end":463.149,"text":"不要讓我們台灣的海岸淪為天然氣接收站的這個競逐場或讓整個西部海岸成為能源的犧牲帶我們希望可以有一個讓社會更安心知道說你們在做整個所謂這個能源轉型政策的時候它到底整體對於我們的社會對於我們的環境會有多大的衝擊部長我要表達這個"},{"start":464.912,"end":484.967,"text":"可以嗎好 謝謝委員的意見那我們會納入參考因為這個其實目前的整個天然氣以氣轉煤是我們這個目前的基地的一個政策啦那至於說五街因為我們沒有收到這個他們的經濟部提出來的所以經濟部應該要提出來或是你應該去溝通他們提出來吧是吧 因為不然你環境部這不就是對於"},{"start":486.108,"end":502.538,"text":"環境部很重要的主要業務嘛你整個能源政策或是整個政策的這個環境評估這應該是對於我們台灣國人也很重要的一件事情對 鮑委員其實以這個使用把這個煤淘汰掉我相信這個對我們整個環境有我完全是贊同的嘛"},{"start":502.898,"end":524.266,"text":"但是我的意思就是說因為你這個接收站你的規劃到底對我們衝擊有多少然後以及你現在再生能源沒有達標的話那你的天然氣接收站是不是要再增加這一切都可能對於我們環境評估有不同的結果這個部分我就是要提醒部長我覺得你們真的要認真考慮去做這個所謂的政策環評比較上位的政策環評好嗎"},{"start":525.046,"end":542.931,"text":"好 謝謝委員的建議 謝謝部長 另外一件事情 第二件事就是環境部日前有公布我們去年的空氣品質的檢測結果截至去年11月底全台平均2.5的平均濃度為12.5微克立方公尺所以較前年的13.7有所改善"},{"start":543.951,"end":551.145,"text":"但是目前為止我有看到環團在質疑目前全台的法定手動PM2.5策戰僅有31處而自動策戰有78處"},{"start":556.178,"end":584.241,"text":"那環境部卻排除了自動測站的數據只接受手動站的數據而根據環團的分析這個檢視全台的自動測站PM2.5的資料台澎金馬所有的空品區PM2.5的年均值實際是14.2微克地方公尺高於環境部公布的數字也特別在高雄全台十大空品最糟的自動監測站中有八站都在高雄"},{"start":585.134,"end":599.703,"text":"那官方手動測站顯示17.4微克而自動測站顯示是18.23微克所以這個問題就是這樣部長為何不使用所有可用的監測數據來呈現完整的空氣品質的圖像"},{"start":602.213,"end":619.45,"text":"這不就是會讓人家質疑說是不是為了要讓我們PM2.5的數值被低估讓環境部可以選擇性的使用這些數據有意想要美化空氣污染的嚴重度誤導公眾的認知好 包委員我是學這個的我可以跟委員說明第一個"},{"start":620.311,"end":645.883,"text":"如果我已經在家裡面洗澡的時候你放一個PM2.5你洗澡的時候馬上就超標因為水氣會讓這個小粒子變大所以其實我們這個為什麼要變手動它會把這個水氣濾掉才是真實的PM2.5的危害謝謝部長 謝謝你講到 我知道你們環境部曾經表示過自動測站容易受水氣空氣中的鹽分影響所以手動測站能夠修正污染物素值的偏差"},{"start":647.043,"end":669.988,"text":"但這也讓人家質疑一件事是不是也是一種校正回歸的手段但是退一步說你如果覺得自動策戰這麼沒有用這麼有可能有很多誤差的話那為什麼環境部還要持續投入大量的資金升級PM2.5的自動監測設備這不就自相矛盾嗎如果你剛剛講的這些東西都不可靠那為什麼要投資這不是很好笑嗎"},{"start":670.828,"end":688.624,"text":"既然不可靠如果他又可靠的話不可靠你為什麼要投資那可靠的話你為什麼要拒絕使用他的這個數據嗎報委員手動跟自動在國際上有它一個標準現在大概都是以手動為主那自動的話為什麼還要增設因為其實它有一個趨勢型的有意義"},{"start":689.184,"end":700.88,"text":"而且我們透過這個手動跟自動的這個所謂的這個修正之後其實會更真實到結果但是手動跟自動這兩個數值其實我們在應變裡面我們會同步來看但是它代表是不一樣的意義的"},{"start":702.411,"end":721.705,"text":"那你公布的數據你還是只選擇用手動測試沒錯那這樣子是真的會讓國人比較安心嗎但是那個是國際上認可標準的數字就很像說有一家國外公司他公布說我們台灣的PM2.5的數字跟他就不一樣他那個是屬於自動型的而且很便宜的那這個反而會造成很大的誤解"},{"start":722.202,"end":750.17,"text":"所以你投入自動的這個監測工具是有其他的使用目的就對了對 兩個都可以同時看但是我相信未來的話自動的設備如果可以把環境或水氣的因素濾除的話其實它會更準確的這個還要等可能要再等一段時間所以你們現在投資的就是希望說這個新的東西是可以更加準確所以未來你們才可以採納對 兩個到時候我相信兩個應該都有一個交叉點那個時候我們就不用了好 謝謝喔那簡單來講"},{"start":751.97,"end":770.977,"text":"謝謝部長那我們還是要最後提醒一下我希望部長這邊可以真實的呈現數據我認為應該要誠實呈現數據然後誠實面對我們問題還要務實解決我們的問題因為包含你剛剛也有提到所謂能源結構的問題到底可不可以達成這些也都有關於我們今天討論的題目謝謝部長好 謝謝委員謝謝好 謝謝廖委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時16分）謝謝主席，有請彭部長。"],["主席：抱歉，請部長待會答復。在這邊作個宣告：待會邱鎮軍委員質詢完畢之後，我們休息10分鐘，謝謝。請繼續。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。想要請教，目前全臺已經規劃了7座天然氣接收站，包含臺中港五接、台塑的六接等新增的站體，然後我們的政府好像從未針對全臺接收站的總量進行上位的政策環評，僅以個案的方式審查，導致各接收站累積性的環境衝擊完全沒有納入評估。請問部長，在沒有進行全臺性的政策環評狀況下，要如何確保這7座的接收站不會對於西部的沿海生態系比如白海豚、珊瑚礁區造成不可逆的破壞？","部長，我們臺灣的西部海岸大約460公里，就有7座天然氣的接收站，平均每65公里就有1座天然氣接收站。依照2024年GGIT的資料，全球興建中及規劃興建天然氣接收站目前只有中國大陸、印度和越南比我們多，換算下來，我們現在應該算是全球天然氣接收站密度最高的國家。所以我想要請教部長或經濟部的代表，全球數據在這裡，難道我們還要繼續不用依照目前環評法第二十六條進行政策環評嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為政策環評需要目的事業主管機關跟我們提出，我們環境部無法對這個直接提，要提……"],["廖委員偉翔：對，你認為是不是應該要？"],["彭部長啓明：因為以煤轉氣是過去我們政府的政策，這個是既定的政策。"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，部長，你覺得目前進行到這個階段，雖然目的事業主管機關沒有提出，以你環境部的角度，你認為是否應該要進行所謂的政策環評？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，各種例如太陽能的發展、能源的發展如果有一個政策環評，讓社會可以有充分的共識，我們當然歡迎，但是因為……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以您支持，對不對？您支持應該要……"],["彭部長啓明：對，但是我們也支持這種以煤轉氣，因為過去燃煤其實造成我們空污比較嚴重……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，部長，這是兩件事嘛。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：我剛剛問的是兩件事，你不能問A答B。"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：我就問你支不支持、認不認為……這個事情已經讓臺灣西部海岸的天然氣接收站密度最高，你是不是支持應該要做所謂的政策環評？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，還有一個，像新加坡大概95%也都是燒天然氣，其實……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒關係，部長，我想要問的是依照我國的狀況。我跟你說，政府政策環境影響評估作業辦法第三條規定：「下列政策有影響環境之虞者，應實施環境影響評估」，其中第五款的內容可否請部長念出來？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，目前如果是政策環評推動這些東西，當然能源政策是一項，但是政策環評是一個事前的溝通，它對於個案是沒有強制力的。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，但是問題就是這上面寫的還是「應」，不是「得」，所以我的意思是如果經濟部抱持鴕鳥心態，環境部也不管，兩個部會都是鴕鳥心態的話，這樣算不算行政怠惰？因為你剛剛也說你覺得應該要去溝通這件事情，而且應該做這樣的政策環評，對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：如果有更多的溝通，當然是好事，但是這個不會影響到個別，因為政策環評……"],["廖委員偉翔：我覺得會耶，為什麼？以五接為例，台電規劃在臺中港外面，現在台灣媽祖魚保育聯盟已經提出白海豚誤闖港區致死案例，顯示既有四接、臺中港擴建與五接的疊加效應可能超出生態的承載力。所以我剛剛講的是，目前為止現行都是逐案審查模式，可能沒有辦法去評估區域性的生態衝擊，尤其是多個站體發生的時候。","另外，經濟部宣稱七接接收站完工後，天然氣進口量將從2,000萬噸提升至3,900萬噸，以滿足非核家園政策下燃氣發電占比50%的目標，這也不是我講的。但是中興大學也研究指出，如果再生能源進度延宕，可能過度依賴天然氣，將使天然氣接收站的負載率長期超標，也反增供氣風險。所以我想要請教，就像我剛剛說的，這個是逐案、逐案地審，並沒有針對整件事情對於環境衝擊有一個更上位的政策環評。所以我也想要請教一下經濟部的代表，七接接收站的數量設定是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提？"],["彭部長啓明：請經濟部。"],["劉副司長起孝：報告委員，有關天然氣接收站的興建，確實是依照能源轉型的政策目標去做相關接收站的興建，所以這個部分……"],["廖委員偉翔：我想要請問，如果再生能源沒有達到36%的目標的話，是否需要再增建接收站？請問要達標的話，要擴建多少才夠？"],["劉副司長起孝：目前天然氣發電的占比是以50%的目標為我們的……"],["廖委員偉翔：是，所以我剛剛就問你們是不是基於再生能源的達標跟產業用電零成長的前提去設定這7座？"],["劉副司長起孝：再生能源的部分是另外大概20%的目標……"],["廖委員偉翔：反過來講，就是如果再生能源沒有達標、不夠，你們會不會要再增加天然氣的部分？"],["劉副司長起孝：這各有各的目標要去努力達成目標。"],["廖委員偉翔：你還是沒有回答我的問題。所以我要講的事情就是，部長，如果沒有經過政策環評，只是為了達到數字而盲目開發，又沒辦法說出到底可不可以達標，或者說兩邊都要努力達標，但最後你沒有達標的話，如此，對於環境的衝擊會是什麼？且對於該政策的環評有沒有做全方位的檢視？這就是我想要表達的。我想說的是，如果還是不面對、甚至不去做這件事情，民進黨現在執政的做法就是：是不是各個突破，就單一個點、單一個點來看，這樣子可能真的會忽視整個政策對於環境的衝擊，畢竟整體來看可能有疊加的效應。所以如果不做的話，是不是評估作業辦法也就可以廢掉，不要用了？我要講的是，請部長認真考慮，不只五接，而是全臺的接收站跟儲氣場的累積性環評報告跟總量管制方案，不要讓臺灣海岸淪為天然氣接收站的競逐場，甚或讓整個西部海岸成為能源的犧牲帶！我們希望可以有一個讓社會更安心的方案，讓我們知道你們在做能源轉型政策時，到底對於社會、對於環境會有多大的衝擊？部長，我要表達的是這個，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員的意見，我們會納入參考。就天然氣來說，即以氣換煤是我們目前的既定政策。至於五接，因為我們沒有收到經濟部提出來的……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以經濟部應該要提出來，或是你應該去溝通請他們提出來，是吧？這不就是環境部很重要的主要業務嗎？也就是關乎你整個能源政策的環境評估，這對我們臺灣國人來說也是一件很重要的事情。"],["彭部長啓明：對。報告委員，其實把煤淘汰掉，相信對我們整個環境也會更好的。"],["廖委員偉翔：我完全贊同。但我的意思是，這個接收站的規劃到底衝擊有多少？若再生能源沒有達標的話，那麼天然氣接收站是不是要再增加？這一切都可能讓環境評估有不同結果，這個部分我要提醒部長。我覺得你們真的要認真考慮去做政策環評、做比較上位的政策環評，好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員的建議。"],["廖委員偉翔：第二件事，日前環境部公布了去年的空氣品質監測結果，截至去年11月底，全臺PM2.5的平均濃度為12.5微克/立方公尺，較前年的13.7微克/立方公尺有所改善。但是我有看到環團質疑，目前全臺法定手動PM2.5測站僅有31處，而自動測站有78處，環境部排除了自動測站的數據，只接受手動測站的數據。根據環團分析，檢視全臺自動測站PM2.5的資料，臺澎金馬所有空品區的PM2.5實際年均值是14.2微克/立方公尺，高於環境部公布的數字！特別是高雄，全臺十大空品最糟的自動監測站中，有8站都在高雄。官方的手動測站顯示為17.4微克/立方公尺，自動測站顯示是18.23微克/立方公尺，所以問題在於，為何不使用所有可用的監測數據以呈現完整的空氣品質圖像？如此不免讓人質疑，是不是為了讓PM2.5的數值被低估，讓環境部可以選擇性的使用這些數據，有意美化空氣污染的嚴重度，誤導公眾認知？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我是學這個的，我可以跟委員做說明。第一，委員可以在家裡洗澡時放PM2.5監測，這樣洗澡時馬上就超標，因為水氣會讓小粒子變大。我們為什麼變手動？因為要把水氣濾掉，這樣才是真實的PM2.5……"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長，我知道。因為環境部曾經表示過，自動測站容易受水氣、空氣中的鹽分影響，而手動測站能夠修正污染物數值的偏差，但這同時也讓人家質疑，這是不是也是一種校正回歸的手段？退一步來講，如果覺得自動測站這麼沒有用，有很多誤差的話，為什麼環境部還要持續投入大量資金升級PM2.5的自動監測設備？這不就自相矛盾？如果你剛剛講的這些東西都不可靠的話，為什麼還要投資？這不是很好笑嗎？既然不可靠，為什麼要投資？若可靠的話，為什麼要拒絕使用其數據？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，手動跟自動在國際上有其標準，現在大概都是以手動為主。至於為什麼還要增設自動？因為其實它有趨勢型的意義，而且我們透過手動跟自動的修正會得到更真實的結果。至於手動跟自動兩個數值，其實我們會在應變裡同步來看，因為它代表的是不一樣的意義。"],["廖委員偉翔：代表不一樣，但你公布的數據還是只選擇手動測試？"],["彭部長啓明：沒錯。"],["廖委員偉翔：這樣子真的會讓國人比較安心嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：那是國際上認可的標準數字。這很像有一家國外公司公布說，臺灣PM2.5的數值跟他不一樣，他是屬於自動型的，而且很便宜，這反而會造成很大的誤解。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以投入自動監測工具有其他的使用目的？"],["彭部長啓明：對，兩個都可以同時看，但未來若自動設備可以把環境或水氣因素濾除的話就會更準確，只是這個還要等一段時間。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們現在投資，就是希望這個新東西可以更加準確，如此未來你們才可以採納？"],["彭部長啓明：對，到時候我相信兩個應該會有交叉點，屆時我們就不用了。"],["廖委員偉翔：謝謝部長。最後還是要提醒一下，我希望部長可以真實呈現數據！我認為應該要真實呈現數據，誠實面對問題，務實解決問題，你剛剛也有提到所謂能源結構的問題到底可不可以達成，這些也都和我們今天討論的題目有關，好，謝謝部長。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員來做詢答；邱委員詢答完，我們休息10分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}},{"id":"159214","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159214","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbd5006f406946ed3cad7e46c29134393cce1d26ba49c773cd277aaf2a4e3413f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/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我們是不是有請彭部長好 請部長王委員好部長好 部長你們在今天的報告裡面提到說我們PM2.5這個不良比例其實是有改善的全國的平均值你們比較起來是有在下降但是如果你看到我們的中南部"},{"start":27.308,"end":55.2,"text":"事實上你這個報告你提出來是一個平均值你如果看到中南部它距離我們的目標PM2.5維持在這個每立方公尺12維克其實差距很大你可以看到去年台灣嚴重的空污排名本島的前三名第一名是台南市第二名是高雄市第三名就是嘉義縣"},{"start":56.821,"end":77.243,"text":"那這個一個台灣兩個世界你的報告呈現出來說哇大幅改善但是事實上在中南部的朋友沒有感覺啊空氣還是很糟啊特別是我們看到從2月25號一直到3月12號真的是全台的空氣拉警報"},{"start":78.581,"end":99.527,"text":"就是我自己出去我都覺得 天啊我這個呼吸 我每多呼吸一口氣我都覺得這個到底我的肺還可不可以承受得住幾乎是從北到南 因為我現在每個禮拜都到嘉義去然後我以為到嘉義之後會改善 台北這樣子嘉義會好一點沒有啊 也是灰濛濛的一片"},{"start":101.087,"end":128.076,"text":"那我問一下部長 請問中南部這樣子的一個空污沒有改善 到底應該怎麼辦第一個我要問你的是 它的污染源到底來自於哪裡以嘉義縣來看的話 它本身的工廠沒有那麼多啊但為什麼嘉義縣的空氣這麼糟它的污染源 你們有比較細部的去分析說中南部這些污染源到底來自哪裡嗎它的上峰處是哪裡是從台中火力發電廠一路飄到嘉義縣嗎"},{"start":130.445,"end":157.295,"text":"報告委員其實我們環境部有針對各個縣市它的來源境內跟境外或是它的境內可能是自己縣境外可能是別的縣市好那我就問你嘉義縣它的空污的主要來源嘉義縣因為它本身並沒有大型的排放源它還是來自於例如說在秋冬的時候來自於上游例如說來自雲林或是彰化台中一起北部的這樣會一起下來都有可能都會累積都會經過嘉義也會跑到那個屏東去"},{"start":158.263,"end":181.316,"text":"所以大概就是從中部往下帶那如果是這樣子那就是中部這邊要改善嗎的污染源要改善嗎但是也報告委員現在的污染源的比例其實有很多種例如說固定污染源或是移動源就汽機車其實現在我們的汽機車的在以全台灣來講汽機車的污染源已經超過了這種固定的污染源了"},{"start":181.776,"end":196.539,"text":"這個就是我接下來要問你的我有聽到你剛剛在報告裡面說交通源已經大於這個工業源了那這樣針對移動污染源已經高於工業污染源那這個部分你們有對策嗎像今天也沒有交通部出席啊"},{"start":198.471,"end":213.439,"text":"你這是要跨部會的啊那你們有沒有跟交通部去商議說我們針對這個移動污染源我們到底再進一步我們可以怎麼樣有效的去降低我們具體的措施跟計畫是什麼坦白講現在我看不到這個部分你今天報告其實也沒有提"},{"start":214.74,"end":234.836,"text":"對 包委員 這個是以台灣來說這是最困難一個案例那也跟委員報告我之前到韓國去他們遇到空污很嚴重的時候會發一個細胞簡訊那個簡訊裡面要大家不要開車到城裡面去那這個如果在台灣其實我相信大家反而是空污很嚴重我要開自己的車進去不要呼吸到空污這個是有很大的不一樣"},{"start":235.196,"end":258.505,"text":"所以我們會再想一下來協調一下如何在空污劑嚴重的時候這種所謂的移動的污染源如何讓它減少但是這個其實是跟民眾的生活是要改變是難度很高的也希望委員會來給我們支持好如果是這樣子的話我覺得你們應該好好去研議比較可行性的123的步驟是什麼而且必須進行社會溝通然後尋求大家的共識"},{"start":259.025,"end":282.146,"text":"比如說這個時候已經變成是移動污染源高於固定污染源所以不得不採取部分的措施那可能考量到大家交通的便利性或者是說以這個台北他捷運這麼的發達他或許他可以優先實施你說中南部他可能沒有車就不能出門了那你就要搭配就是你有公共運輸啊你有大型的可以讓大家接駁他才有可能自己不開車啊"},{"start":283.067,"end":300.498,"text":"要不然你那樣子的一個做法可能也達不到所以我希望這個部分針對移動污染源你們也是要去處理 好不好那另外一個你們的那個空氣品質監測跟預報中心你什麼時候要上路 你說你們要多增加這樣的一個中心它對於解決空污真的會有幫忙嗎"},{"start":301.458,"end":318.454,"text":"報告委員其實他其實原來的人力還是在那邊只不過移到這個大氣師但是呢因為我們過去監測跟預報到最後應變這兩個不一樣的事在作業我們希望統合在一起你現在是整合成一個整合成一個預報中心在我們大氣師的下面所以他可能這個有效性會比較快"},{"start":320.356,"end":342.974,"text":"決策的方式會更快然後因為我們大氣司未來也要做各種的因為我們有一些空品的預報還有很多外圍的團隊我們希望把它統合在一起更有效率那你什麼時候要上路因為我們現在這個是調整整個環境部的組織法所以我們也報到院裡面的那再等一段時間那現在我們已經開始在初步的在整合了所以希望幾個月內會趕快成立"},{"start":344.815,"end":366.004,"text":"好我希望這個空瓶的改善必須持續因為對中南部的民眾真的覺得快受不了了另外一個我要問的是這個環境污染的問題我們發展風電我們當然贊成但是這個竟然出現風機葉片在高美濕地躺了10年沒有人發現也不需要處理"},{"start":367.504,"end":373.965,"text":"那這樣的一個狀況在你們的環評裡面環評計畫書其實也沒有要求開發單位針對這一個風機他壽命到了他應該要怎麼樣的回收跟處理必須寫在他的計畫裡面也是付之缺乳所以這個案例一報導出來之後大家都覺得這個也太誇張了就是風機葉片廢棄在那邊躺了10年不穩不穩然後也都沒有處理好像是無政府狀態"},{"start":397.21,"end":421.497,"text":"那針對這個部分要怎麼改善?這個部長報告委員這個部分台中市環保局已經進行的這個集合了他至於如何處罰這個我還沒有清楚但是他們已經去查核了我們未來會監督那第二個呢是其實這個東西是可以再回收的當然我必須坦承委員因為這個是很早期的這個章健有快20年了那個是第一代那時候環評各方面針對這個的處理都沒有很清楚"},{"start":421.917,"end":449.738,"text":"那現在新的部分我們都會要求目的事業及主管機關一定要去做處理那台電呢其實現在他們也允諾他們會去做這個方面的重新的在去化的過程中去做準備那你這個什麼一個是這個什麼時候要清理完畢現在清理到什麼程度這個是我們會責成台電公司來進行這個清理完畢那他們有答應他們會來處理的多久要完成要限期完成啊這什麼時候要完成這個報告委員我們是不是請台電來回應好"},{"start":453.24,"end":478.199,"text":"報告委員我是台電專業總工程師溫環正那目前台中所發現的那個風機散落的葉片我們已經整理我們已經清理完畢了現在目前是放在我們的倉庫裡面暫置所以你們都已經移除了對對對現場已經清理乾淨了清理完畢了那現場的土地有沒有受到污染沒有都沒有是環保單位應該要再去確定一下吧是有嗎"},{"start":480.213,"end":505.991,"text":"這個是台中市環保局相關的事項我們現場已經把它清理完畢了已經完全清理完畢了好那另外一個我要追問那個就是未來在環評的部分因為我們現在風力發電了其實有非常多場然後呢現在也面臨到有一些已經這個要到期了那所以這個部分到底現在在整個環境部的環評裡面你們的這一些有關於這一些風機它事後的這個回收"},{"start":508.012,"end":522.906,"text":"你們有沒有在環評計畫裡面去要求他們要提出他們的計畫報告委員是有的現在已經有了嗎已經有了已經有名文你們是寫在哪裡的他如果要除役或是說要延役這個其實要主動去提對要主動提這些事情"},{"start":523.186,"end":544.557,"text":"那你們是在你們哪一個相關規定裡面已經有納進去你們有要求他在這一個後續的回收裡面要納進去我們在環評審查的時候審查結論裡頭就有一條會要求他就是說在除疫前一年要提出他的除疫計畫而且規定他這個葉片啊機具都要朝回收方面去處理這個部分我們已經"},{"start":545.678,"end":571.223,"text":"都有明文要求嘛 現在每一場其實你們都提出要求只要是風力發電有經過環評 環評都有這樣子的要求研議的部分也會要求研議目前並不是我們環評的要求我們環評其實依照現在認定標準是新設機組才必須要那研議的部分呢研議的部分就要回歸到目的事業主管機關依他的那個管理電業法去管理他"},{"start":572.023,"end":588.119,"text":"那為什麼這部分環境部不能研議都不需要經過你們只要經濟部就好我這邊跟委員報告一下我們環評的目的是等於是要減輕或預防它新設基礎造成的環境的影響所以在"},{"start":589.14,"end":613.268,"text":"它新設基礎的時候我們去考量它對環境的衝擊影響甚至它有沒有一些減輕的措施那至於它正式上路營運以後它是依照電業法是跟目的事業主管機關去申請所以後續的它的管理甚至是它的研議它是依照電業法去跟目的事業主管機關申請研議所以這個部分我們還是回歸到目的事業主管機關的法規去管理所以我們"},{"start":614.168,"end":632.004,"text":"所以你們這邊沒有有漏掉的我的意思是說他前期他可能並沒有提出這個計畫然後他又跟經濟部提出研議了然後之前他也沒有提出任何這個他的風機回收計畫有沒有這樣的一個案例我要求你們回去再清查一遍好不好應該是說有一些沒有經過環評的案子的話也許有可能"},{"start":635.968,"end":655.007,"text":"很早期的時候他是跟直接就跟那個目的事業主管我知道但這個就會遇到像這一場台電同樣的問題嘛早期的沒有嘛等到他要除役的時候他可能就是會不會又是直接放著然後就不處理嘛那這一個部分我希望經由這一次的事件就是整個的漏洞我們都把它補起來"},{"start":655.968,"end":670.721,"text":"不能因為我們要發展風力發電但是他事後的善後這些回收都沒有做到位又造成另外一次的環境的污染這個我們就不允許好不好而且部長部長應該也會跟那個經濟部會協調就是後面一定會做好這相關的問題部長我希望你們跟經濟部要求這個不要漏洞產生好不好沒問題好謝謝謝謝王也謝謝部長那接下來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":443,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時4分）謝謝主席，是不是有請彭部長？"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，你們在今天的報告裡面提到我們PM2.5不良比例其實是有改善的，全國的平均值你們比較起來是有在下降，但是如果你看到我們的中南部，事實上，你這個報告所提出來的是平均值，你看中南部距離我們的目標PM2.5維持在每立方公尺12微克，其實差距很大。你可以看到去年臺灣嚴重空污排名本島的前三名，第一名是臺南市，第二名是高雄市，第三名是嘉義縣，一個臺灣兩個世界，你的報告呈現出來說大幅改善，但事實上在中南部的朋友沒有感覺啊！空氣還是很糟啊！特別是我們看到從2月25號一直到3月12號，真的是全臺的空氣拉警報，就是我自己出去我都覺得天啊！我每多呼吸一口氣我都覺得我的肺到底還可不可以承受得住？幾乎是從北到南，因為我現在每個禮拜都到嘉義去，我以為到嘉義之後會改善，臺北這樣子，嘉義會好一點，沒有啊！也是灰濛濛的一片。","我問一下部長，請問中南部這樣子的空污沒有改善到底應該怎麼辦？第一個我要問你的是，它的污染源到底來自於哪裡？以嘉義縣來看的話，它本身的工廠沒有麼多，但為什麼嘉義縣的空氣這麼糟？針對它的污染源，你們有比較細部的去分析中南部這些污染源到底來自哪裡嗎？它的上風處是哪裡？是從臺中火力發電廠一路飄到嘉義縣嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實環境部有針對各個縣市的來源，包括境內跟境外，境內可能是自己縣，境外可能是別的縣市，或者是外來……"],["王委員育敏：我就問你嘉義縣空污的主要來源來自哪裡？"],["彭部長啓明：嘉義縣本身並沒有大型的排放源，例如在秋冬的時候來自於上游，例如來自雲林或彰化、臺中、北部的會一起下來，都有可能會累積，都會經過嘉義，也會跑到屏東去。"],["王委員育敏：所以大概就是從中部往下帶是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["王委員育敏：如果是這樣子，那就是中部這邊的污染源要改善啊！"],["彭部長啓明：對，但是也要向委員報告，現在污染源的比例其實有很多種，例如固定污染源或是汽機車等移動污染源，其實以全臺灣來講，現在汽機車的污染源已經超過固定污染源了。"],["王委員育敏：這個就是我接下來要問你的，我有聽到你剛剛在報告裡面說交通源已經大於工業源，針對移動污染源已經高於工業污染源，這個部分你們有對策嗎？像今天也沒有交通部出席啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實……"],["王委員育敏：這是要跨部會的啊！你們有沒有跟交通部商議針對移動污染源，到底我們可以如何進一步有效地去降低？我們具體的措施跟計畫是什麼？坦白講，現在我看不到這個部分，你今天報告其實也沒有提。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，以臺灣來說，這是最困難的一個案例。也跟委員報告，我之前到韓國去，他們遇到空污很嚴重的時候會發一個細胞簡訊，那個簡訊裡面要大家不要開車到城裡面去。如果這種情形發生在臺灣，我相信大家反而是空污很嚴重的時候要開自己的車進去，不要呼吸到空污，這個是有很大的不一樣。所以我們會再想一下、協調一下，看看如何在空污季嚴重的時候，如何讓移動污染源減少，但這個牽涉到民眾的生活要改變，其實難度是很高的，也希望委員未來給我們支持。"],["王委員育敏：如果是這樣子的話，我覺得你們應該好好去研議比較可行的一二三的步驟是什麼，而且必須進行社會溝通，然後尋求大家的共識。比如說，這個時候已經變成移動污染源高於固定污染源，所以不得不採取部分的措施，可能考量到大家交通的便利性，或者是以臺北捷運這麼的發達，或許可以優先實施。像中南部可能沒有車他就不能出門，那你就要搭配公共運輸，要有大型的公共運輸可以讓大家接駁，他才有可能自己不開車，要不然你樣子的作法可能也達不到。我希望針對移動污染源你們也要去處理，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員。"],["王委員育敏：另外，你們的空氣品質監測跟預報中心什麼時候要上路？你說你們要多增加這樣的中心，它對於解決空污真的會有幫忙嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實它原來的人力還是在那邊，只不過移到大氣司，因為我們過去監測跟預報到最後應變是兩個不一樣的司在作業，我們希望統合在一起。"],["王委員育敏：你現在是整合成一個？"],["彭部長啓明：整合成一個預報中心在我們大氣司的下面。"],["王委員育敏：所以它可能有效性會比較快？即時性……"],["彭部長啓明：決策的方式會更快，然後因為我們大氣司未來也要做各種的……因為我們有一些空品的預報，還有很多外圍的團隊，我們希望把它統合在一起，這樣會更有效率。"],["王委員育敏：那你什麼時候要上路？你們的整合工作。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為這是調整整個環境部的組織法，所以我們也報到院裡面，要再等一段時間，現在我們已經開始初步在整合了，希望幾個月內會趕快成立。"],["王委員育敏：好，空品的改善必須持續，因為中南部的民眾真的快受不了了。","另外一個我要問的是環境污染的問題，發展風電我們當然贊成，但是竟然出現風機葉片在高美溼地躺了十年，沒有人發現，也不需要處理，這樣的狀況在你們的環評裡面，環評計畫書其實也沒有要求開發單位，照理說，針對風機的壽命到了，他應該要怎麼樣的回收跟處理，必須寫在他的計畫裡面，結果也是付之闕如。所以這個案例一報導出來之後，大家都覺得這也太誇張了，就是風機葉片廢棄在那邊躺了十年，不聞不問，然後也都沒有處理，好像是無政府狀態。部長。針對這個部分要怎麼改善？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個部分臺中市環保局已經進行稽核，至於如何處罰我還不清楚，但是他們已經去查核了，我們未來會監督。第二個，其實這個東西是可以再回收的，當然我必須坦承，因為這是很早期的，將近有快二十年了，這個是第一代，那時候環評各方面針對這個的處理都沒有很清楚，現在新的部分我們都會要求目的事業主管機關一定要去處理，現在台電也允諾他們會重新針對這方面的去化過程做準備。"],["王委員育敏：這個什麼時候要清理完畢？現在清理到什麼程度？"],["彭部長啓明：我們會責成台電公司清理完畢，他們有答應他們會來處理。"],["王委員育敏：多久要完成？要限期完成啊！這什麼時候要完成？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們是不是請台電來回應？"],["王委員育敏：好。"],["温專業總工程師桓正：報告委員，我是台電專業總工程師温桓正。目前臺中所發現的風機散落葉片我們已經清理完畢了，現在是放在我們的倉庫裡面暫置。"],["王委員育敏：所以你們都已經移除了？"],["温專業總工程師桓正：對，現場已經清理完畢。"],["王委員育敏：現場的土地有沒有受到污染？"],["温專業總工程師桓正：沒有。"],["王委員育敏：都沒有？"],["温專業總工程師桓正：是。"],["王委員育敏：環保單位應該要再去確定一下吧！"],["温專業總工程師桓正：是。"],["王委員育敏：有嗎？"],["温專業總工程師桓正：這個是臺中市環保局相關的事項，我們現場已經把它清理完畢了。"],["王委員育敏：已經完全清理完畢了？"],["温專業總工程師桓正：是。"],["王委員育敏：好。另外，我要追問未來在環評的部分，因為現在風力發電其實有非常多場，現在也面臨到有一些已經要到期了，所以到底現在整個環境部的環評裡面，有關於這些風機事後的回收，你們有沒有在環評計畫裡面要求他們要提出計畫？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，是有的。"],["王委員育敏：現在已經有了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：已經有了。"],["王委員育敏：你們是寫在哪裡的相關規則？"],["彭部長啓明：它如果要除役或是延役，要主動提這些事情。"],["王委員育敏：你們是在哪一個相關規定裡面已經納進去你們要求他們在後續的回收裡面要納進來？"],["徐司長淑芷：報告委員，我們在環評審查的時候，審查結論裡頭就有一條要求他們在除役前一年要提出除役計畫，而且規定葉片、機具都要朝回收方面去處理，這個部分我們已經……"],["王委員育敏：都有明文要求嘛？"],["徐司長淑芷：對。"],["王委員育敏：現在每一場其實你們都有提出要求……"],["徐司長淑芷：只要是風力發電有經過環評，環評都有這樣子的要求。"],["王委員育敏：延役的時候也會要求？"],["徐司長淑芷：延役的部分目前並不是我們環評的要求，我們的環評其實依照現在認定標準是新設機組才必須要進行環評。"],["王委員育敏：那延役的部分呢？"],["徐司長淑芷：延役的部分就要回歸到目的事業主管機關依電業法去管理。"],["王委員育敏：為什麼延役這部分都不需要經過你們環境部，只要經濟部同意就好？"],["徐司長淑芷：跟委員報告一下，我們環評的目的等於是要減輕或預防新設機組造成的環境影響，所以在新設機組的時候，我們去考量它對環境的衝擊、影響，甚至有沒有一些減輕的措施。至於它正式上路營運以後，是依照電業法跟目的事業主管機關去申請，所以後續的管理、甚至延役是依照電業法去跟目的事業主管機關申請延役，這個部分我們還是回歸到目的事業主管機關的法規去管理，所以環評的部分是尊重……"],["王委員育敏：所以你們這邊沒有漏掉的？我的意思是，它在前期可能並沒有提出這個計畫，然後它又跟經濟部提出延役了，之前它也沒有提出任何風機回收計畫，有沒有這樣的案例？我要求你們回去再清查一遍，好不好？"],["徐司長淑芷：應該是說有一些沒有經過環評的案子，也許有可能，因為它是早年……"],["王委員育敏：這個部分要怎麼辦？"],["徐司長淑芷：很早期的時候它直接就跟目的事業主管機關去申請。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，這個就會遇到像這一場台電同樣的問題，早期的沒有，等到它要除役的時候，可能會不會又直接放著，然後就不處理？我希望經由這次的事件，我們把整個漏洞都補起來，不能因為我們要發展風力發電，但是事後的善後、回收都沒有做到位，又造成另外一次的環境污染，這個我們就不允許，好不好？"],["徐司長淑芷：了解。部長應該也會跟經濟部協調，後面一定會做好相關的問題。"],["王委員育敏：好。部長，我希望你們跟經濟部要求這個不要有漏洞產生，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，沒問題。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請廖偉翔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}},{"id":"159213","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159213","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb245231266d47408e871e4a585984f629ce1d26ba49c773cd539f966d37fd65f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:20:19 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謝謝陳委員你好委員長好委員長我們先看一下我們的這個簡報好這一個"},{"start":15.612,"end":25.741,"text":"今天的質詢重點其實是針對台灣我們這個名稱還有這個海外台灣人的很多正名運動來帶來的影響跟委員長討論特別是憲法第141條跟第151條中針對僑民跟僑居國外的國民的官方翻譯的問題這個"},{"start":37.014,"end":63.808,"text":"委員長現在僑委會的英文名稱全稱是什麼我們叫做Overseas Community Affairs Council對那其實它經過兩次的一個變更嘛對2006年的時候先把這個Overseas Chinese Affairs先改掉那2012年的時候配合行政院的組織再造那我們就改成是用Community就是先行的這樣子的名稱嘛那這個名稱"},{"start":65.089,"end":87.257,"text":"中信而且也是完全符合就是百分之百吻合這個音譯直譯意義都是直接是吻合的對可是現在在我們總統府跟全國法規資料庫的網站上面那將現場中的僑民跟僑居國外的國民那還是一律翻成是用"},{"start":87.677,"end":115.54,"text":"Chinese citizens那這樣子的翻譯方式我是覺得沒有辦法忠實的反映原文的意涵那這個跟憲法我們憲法上面是寫僑名嘛它沒有寫中華民國國民或者是中國國民或者是任何一個國民把這個國民的名稱把它寫上去而是用中憲的這個說法是用僑名嘛那所以除了憲法之外我們還有法務部內政部"},{"start":116.801,"end":138.577,"text":"陸委會 外交部 經濟部 國防部 勞動部 交通部經管會 國客會 央行全部都還是將僑民翻譯成這個Overseas Chinese這個部分是那我想請問一下這個委員長你怎麼看這個部分你覺得委員你是在非常掌握最新的脈動這個問題我很願意詳細的來跟您說明那確實詳細跟全國民眾來說明一下"},{"start":146.523,"end":158.233,"text":"這個我確實有注意到其他僑委會以外的部會包括總統府的一些英文的資料文件所呈現出來的用詞"},{"start":160.295,"end":174.41,"text":"也剛好在兩個月前我們在海外有一個僑民投書也提到說僑委會都已經把各種的這種Chinese的這種用詞正名為就是Overseas compatriots"},{"start":175.071,"end":178.114,"text":"或者Overseas Community這樣的中性的名詞那為什麼還是國內有部分的這個部會沒有辦法跟進那這個投書當然我第一時間看到以後我有立即的把它傳給總統府的這個秘書室請他們去研議那也跟委員報告總統府也很快的就交辦了我們行政院的這個"},{"start":199.994,"end":204.698,"text":"民心政委所以我們在兩個禮拜前確實就召集跨部會的包括有法務部、國防部、外交部、教育部等等相關部會有開一個會議就是針對因應的這些名詞怎麼樣做一個整體性的改善那我們也有提供我們僑委會的一些範例供大家做討論"},{"start":225.774,"end":247.264,"text":"那一次的討論當中有還不錯的這個正向結果就是大家也都認同說我們只要中性的翻譯陳述就好並不需要加諸任何的這一種意識形態在裡面就像我們剛剛在提這個Spring Festival是叫春節但是農曆年叫做Lunar New Year"},{"start":248.424,"end":269.159,"text":"這個跟Chinese New Year是根本兩回事所以我是忠實於做translate翻譯的概念而已我並不帶著意識形態所以我這兩年一直鼓勵我們僑界說大家都用英文一定要講求精確不要帶有被中國洗腦的意識形態在裡面所以逐漸的我們這幾年確實僑界有把這種"},{"start":273.342,"end":290.991,"text":"狀況改變過來那本會呢各種出版品我們也逐漸在檢視就是還有沒有這樣子的情況存在我們就一一的把它修正就是Overseas Community可以講解的我們就寫Overseas Compatriots我們就不會再寫什麼Chinese這樣子的字眼了"},{"start":291.711,"end":316.793,"text":"非常樂見其成我覺得這是我們諮詢的目的也就是希望說能夠在因應上面能夠更忠實的把我們的這些法律上的條文也好或者是說網站上面的這一些注釋也好都是很清楚清晰的讓國外來閱覽我們網站閱覽我們的這些文件的時候不會有產生誤解的狀況那很高興兩個禮拜前就已經有開始有這樣的做法"},{"start":317.213,"end":336.005,"text":"那我們是希望說能夠但是也謝謝陳委員幫我們這個提醒讓我們有機會做這個說明謝謝那另外就是日本的日本政府其實上個月他月中也是允許台灣人在戶籍登記的時候用台灣而非中國那就是延續我們剛才的話題那其實像是一些"},{"start":336.986,"end":360.101,"text":"歐洲國家不見得全面性的了解我們的狀況所以有些時候我們在跟丹麥爭取國際這個標記證明的運動的時候還是會受阻受阻的原因有時候說你們自己你們僑民的因應就用這樣子的說法為什麼一定要求我們戶籍要改另外一個名稱所以這也是為了我們所有的不管是一般民眾或者是這一個民團"},{"start":361.142,"end":377.48,"text":"或者是我們的國際的NGO在替我們在爭取的時候能夠有這樣子的做法我們在涉外的文件的時候一定尤其要注意翻譯成外文的時候不管它是英文、法文或德文我們都會謹記這種概念盡量的用中性的表述"},{"start":378.47,"end":399.602,"text":"另外一個部分我還是我就直接先有看到有這樣子的做法我們當然就覺得這是一個很正面的回饋但是我們謝謝像日本我們很多僑民一直協助所以今年的5月23號開始就全面只要是來自台灣出生的或者來自台灣的民眾他都可以改變那個國籍及地區欄從中國改為台灣"},{"start":401.863,"end":427.111,"text":"好非常好那我希望說更加主動那跟其他的歐洲國家還要繼續來協助我們當地要證明的這些朋友們另外一部分是跟我們的選區我們嘉義就有一點關係就是增加橋商跟國內供應鏈的連結這個委員長你知道我們嘉義即將有設立這個民雄的無人機無人機的航太園區"},{"start":428.351,"end":439.432,"text":"那作為我們台灣它是未來就是台灣發展國防民用無人機的這個重要的基地香港會有沒有一些機制來協助海外的僑商跟這個產業對接"},{"start":441.337,"end":445.06,"text":"去年由嘉義縣的縣長也曾經帶了一團無人機的業者去美國做巡迴的交流也相當的成功然後就去年的九月"},{"start":458.433,"end":467.678,"text":"然後這個航太無人機的邀訪團呢今年我們也會持續的辦理讓海外有興趣的這些橋台商可以回來台灣然後我們會讓他在台灣的這些無人機的產業鏈裡面去進行交流、參訪跟會議然後也會持續希望大家能夠投資或者變成是一個橋樑可以引薦到海外去讓這個市場可以擴大"},{"start":484.727,"end":490.216,"text":"那這部分呢 我們從去年開始就有陸續在做相關的配套工作好 繼續努力謝謝 謝謝陳委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":384,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時20分）你好，我們請委員長。"],["主席：有請委員長，謝謝。"],["徐委員長佳青：陳委員，你好。"],["陳委員冠廷：委員長好。委員長，我們先看一下簡報。"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["陳委員冠廷：今天的質詢重點其實是針對臺灣的名稱，還有海外臺灣人很多正名運動所帶來的影響，要跟委員長討論，特別是憲法第一百四十一條跟第一百五十一條中，針對僑民跟僑居國外國民官方翻譯的問題。委員長，現在僑委會英文名稱的全稱是什麼？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們是叫做Overseas Community Affairs Council。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，其實它經過兩次的變更。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：2006年的時候是先把Overseas Chinese Affairs先改掉，到了2012年的時候，配合行政院的組織再造，我們就改成含有Community這個現行的名稱。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：這個名稱既中性，也完全符合、100%吻合英譯、直譯、意譯。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：可是現在在我們總統府跟全國法規資料庫的網站上，對憲法中的僑民跟僑居國外的國民還是一律翻成Chinese Citizens。這樣的翻譯方式，我是覺得沒有辦法忠實地反映原文的意涵，憲法上面是寫「僑民」，沒有寫「中華民國國民」或「中國國民」或者是任何一國的國民，也就是把國名寫上去，而是用中性「僑民」的說法。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：除了憲法之外，我們還有法務部、內政部、陸委會、外交部、經濟部、國防部、勞動部、交通部、金管會、國科會、央行全部都還是將僑民翻譯成Overseas Chinese。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：我想請問一下委員長，你怎麼看這個部分？覺得未來精進的方向……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員實在非常能掌握最新的脈動，這個問題我很願意詳細地跟您說明。"],["陳委員冠廷：請詳細地跟全國民眾說明一下。"],["徐委員長佳青：好。我確實有注意到其他，也就是僑委會以外的部會，包括總統府的一些英文資料文件所呈現出來的用詞。剛好在兩個月前，我們在海外有一個僑民投書，也提到僑委會都已經把各種Chinese的這種用詞正名為Overseas Compatriot，或者是Overseas Community這樣中性的名詞，為什麼國內還是有部分的部會沒有辦法跟進？","這個投書我第一時間看到以後，我也立即地傳給總統府的秘書室，請他們去研議，也跟委員報告，總統府也很快地交辦我們行政院的林明昕政委，所以我們在兩個禮拜前確實召集了跨部會的，包括法務部、國防部、外交部、教育部等等相關部會開了一個會議，就是針對英譯的這些名詞，怎麼做一個整體性的改善，我們也有提供僑委會的範例供大家討論。在那一次的討論當中，也有還不錯的正向結果，大家也都認同，我們只要中性的翻譯陳述就好，並不須要加諸任何意識形態在裡面。就像我們剛剛在提的，Spring Festival是叫春節，但是農曆年叫做Lunar New Year，這個跟Chinese New Year根本是兩回事，所以我是忠實做translate的概念而已，並不帶著意識形態。我這兩年一直鼓勵僑界，大家都用英文，一定要講求精確，不要帶有被中國洗腦的意識形態在裡面，所以逐漸地我們這幾年僑界確實有把這種狀況改變過來。本會的各種出版品，我們也逐一檢視還有沒有這樣子的情況存在，我們就一一的修正，想寫Overseas Community的，我們就寫，或是寫Overseas Compatriot也可以，我們就不會再寫Chinese這樣子的字眼了。"],["陳委員冠廷：我非常樂見其成，我們質詢的目的也是希望在因應上面能夠更忠實的讓我們這些法律條文也好，或者是網站上面的這些注釋也好，都很清楚、清晰，讓國外在閱覽我們的網站、閱覽我們這些文件的時候不會有產生誤解的狀況……"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：很高興兩個禮拜前就已經開始有這樣的作法，我們希望能夠加快步調……"],["徐委員長佳青：是，很謝謝陳委員的提醒，讓我們有機會做這個說明。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。另外，其實日本政府上個月中允許臺灣人在戶籍登記的時候用「臺灣」而非「中國」，那就是延續我們剛才的話題……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：其實一些歐洲國家不見得全面了解我們的狀況，所以有些時候像是我們在跟丹麥爭取國籍標記正名運動的時候還是會受阻，受阻的原因有些時候是說我們自己僑民的英譯就用這樣的說法，為什麼一定要要求他們戶籍要改另外一個名稱……"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以這也是為了我們所有的，不管是一般民眾，或者是民團，或者是我們的國際NGO，在替我們爭取的時候，能夠有這樣子的作法會比較……"],["徐委員長佳青：是，在涉外文件上，尤其要注意翻譯成外文的時候，不管是英文、法文或德文，我們都會謹記這種概念，儘量用中性的表述。"],["陳委員冠廷：看到有這樣子的作法，我們當然就覺得這是一個很正面的回饋，我只是希望……"],["徐委員長佳青：是，我們很謝謝日本有很多僑民一直在協助，所以今年5月23日開始就全面的，只要是臺灣出生或者來自臺灣的民眾，都可以改變國籍及地區欄，從「中國」改為「臺灣」。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，非常好！我希望更加主動跟其他的歐洲國家溝通，繼續協助當地要正名的我們這些朋友們。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：另外一個部分是跟我們的選區嘉義有一點關係，就是增加僑商與國內供應鏈的連結。委員長，你知道我們嘉義民雄即將設立無人機的航太園區……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：它是未來臺灣發展國防、民用無人機的重要基地，僑委會有沒有一些機制來協助海外的僑商與這個產業對接？"],["徐委員長佳青：去年嘉義縣縣長曾經帶了一團無人機的業者去美國巡迴交流，相當的成功，就是去年的9月，而這個航太無人機的邀訪團，今年我們也會持續的辦理，讓海外有興趣的僑臺商可以回來臺灣，我們會讓他在臺灣的無人機產業鏈裡面去進行交流、參訪及會議，也會持續希望大家能夠投資，或者變成一個橋梁，可以引薦到海外去，讓這個市場可以擴大，這個部分我們從去年開始就有陸續在做相關的配套工作。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，繼續努力。"],["徐委員長佳青：謝謝，謝謝陳委員。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席（陳委員冠廷代）：請沈伯洋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-3","speakers":["沈伯洋","徐巧芯","羅美玲","陳俊宇","王定宇","黃仁","林楚茵","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林憶君","張啓楷","黃國昌","馬文君"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00013"}}},{"id":"159212","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159212","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb5c1a34f806dc26d2871e4a585984f629ce1d26ba49c773cdf8442d53e673a3d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:10:57 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所以說我相信各部會議 像喬委會現在講得非常清楚這個就是整體的所謂預算 該刪就刪但是刪成這樣的時候所引發的困難但是我們該做的事情 或者是就像報告所想的中國運用各種方式在做滲透你這邊有特別提到的 比如說像連英文名字到底是這個所謂的Spring Festival 到底是Luna"},{"start":220.831,"end":240.961,"text":"New Year還是Chinese New Year這種他們都可以來做文章另外甚至於還發送暖心包其實我想問暖心包裡面有什麼喬委會有沒有去看到過我們是有去問啦但是大概他們就是講不外都是一些春節的應景的東西而已那所以"},{"start":242.282,"end":255.472,"text":"小東西我們就是觀察也沒有特別去跟他們做太多的文章但是這些小東西積少成多其實這個都是預算在裡面對不對是 這個當然是中國大撒幣他們喜歡大撒幣那對我們來說我們預算是量入為出所以今年對我們來說會是一個真的很有感的一年我在最近這兩個月當中只要遇到僑團我都已經跟他們預告說要先跟你們抱歉了"},{"start":269.682,"end":281.239,"text":"今年我們的補助可能不但不能像去年一樣可能還要略減所以拜託大家辦活動的時候盡量大家可以整合合作在一起提高這個效率"},{"start":282.162,"end":286.925,"text":"好 所以妳就看到嘛 妳在報告也寫到嘛中國領事館人員是春節的時候密集拜會傳統橋設並致贈春節禮金紅包啊 一方面中國在給紅包結果剛剛徐委員長說不好意思藍白聯手把我們的總預算刪減了尤其是像這種業務費要用桶刪的 出差旅費連人都到不了"},{"start":308.24,"end":313.602,"text":"人家是到傳統僑社裡面親自拜訪還給紅包我覺得你們的考驗跟壓力非常大是我們過去到傳統僑社去或者是中青會去我們也都會添一些香油錢固然是不多但是隨著我們整體的這個預算包括業務費被捅三這確實會對我們產生一些影響本來包500可能現在只能包"},{"start":334.763,"end":341.485,"text":"這個450類似像這樣子那個量入為出所以我覺得這個部分恐怕也只能請委員長跟喬文會所有的同仁真的這個他們在打金錢牌我們的人情牌網絡牌可能就要更發揮當然也需要靠我們在第一線在國外的這些所謂的"},{"start":353.21,"end":379.253,"text":"喬商朋友或者是喬商同胞們一起來協助因為中國的打壓其實是非常的多包括去年其實像我們出席這個亞洲台商總會的時候就有發生這個一些狀況包括名牌不見了然後不能唱國歌等等其實現在的滲透非常的多但是這些滲透它其實傳達的都是一種"},{"start":380.474,"end":397.088,"text":"對於國家認同主權認同之爭本席其實有聽到一個訊息當然陸委會最新的報告也出來了就是中國目前他會打著抗爭所謂抗戰勝利光復八十週年"},{"start":397.828,"end":418.26,"text":"為他們今年所訴求的主題要形塑所謂兩岸同屬一中而本席在這幾次出國跟僑界他們在溝通跟交流的時候我不知道僑委會有沒有聽到這樣的一個訊息就是現在我們已經來到三月即將四月也就是半年之後的國慶其實現在慢慢也要開始舉辦了傳統的僑界跟現在我們的所謂的"},{"start":424.283,"end":436.611,"text":"台橋朋友之間開始要準備國慶的同時不知道委員長有沒有聽到一個聲音是居然要把抗戰勝利80年這樣的一個主題跟我們的國慶綁在一起"},{"start":442.294,"end":455.88,"text":"確實是有的其實這個做法在過去幾年中共的統戰過程當中他們一直企圖要把這個過去的歷史重新解釋那今年當然是二戰中戰的八十週年紀念沒有錯所以他們企圖在國際輿論上要製造一個說這個中戰他是戰勝國可是事實上當時連中共都中華人民"},{"start":469.565,"end":496.36,"text":"共和國都還沒成立他們只有成立70年所以單單這個建國才70年怎麼可能去打80年的戰爭就打到他們自己的耳光了所以我們只要把清楚的歷史的史實資料做清楚的呈現當然我們也一樣要預防就像他們過去一直在搶國父孫中山先生的這個陣統一樣所以我們對於這種統戰的伎倆跟守法一直都保持高度的警戒"},{"start":497.74,"end":501.002,"text":"因為時間有限本期只是提醒因為現在要錢我們沒有辦活動的錢比不贏中國要宣傳整體的宣傳費也被藍白聯手現在砍掉了所以剛剛您的清楚論述如何正確的傳達給僑界如何讓僑界在辦活動或者尤其是像國慶這種慶祝活動的時候在整體的"},{"start":521.57,"end":532.75,"text":"所謂主權國家意識當中可以清楚的傳達可能就要考驗徐委員長跟所有我們僑委會同仁的智慧了謝謝委員提供的這個建議跟資訊好我們會加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":350,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（10時10分）謝謝主席，有請徐佳青委員長。"],["主席：有請委員長。"],["徐委員長佳青：林委員早安。"],["林委員楚茵：委員長好。我想接下來這個會期的開始也是不容易，因為從總預算被刪減的狀況來看，我們面對的是中國在全球的僑界，可以說過去他們其實就是資本很雄厚的在進行所謂的拉攏。當然我們所有僑界朋友其實是他們的主力，尤其從您的報告當中就看得非常的明白、清楚。從這個總預算的狀況來看的話，我想刪減總預算到最後都不是教訓到行政單位，其實都是我們這些民眾或僑民受到損害，比如說媒體政策宣傳費被刪了400萬，還有國外旅費也被刪了大概四百多萬。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["林委員楚茵：我想對比其他單位都是幾百萬、幾百萬，聽起來不多，但是僑委會本身的預算就不高了。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["林委員楚茵：我們知道3月21號到24號世界臺灣商會聯合總會在美國休士頓要交接了，請問委員長會出席嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：這一場是第2次理監事會，我也會特別去參與，我知道我們外委會也有組團。"],["林委員楚茵：是，沒錯，可是現在國外旅費被刪了四百多萬，所以您出國的費用是從這裡……"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，我去年知道這個預算審查的狀況，本來在委員會很好，可是到了二讀會以後就發現這個趨勢不是很理想，所以從今年1月開始，我們都有跟同仁說，如果可以坐經濟艙就不坐商務艙；在五小時以下不用過夜的狀況，我們儘量這樣安排；甚至連廉價航空我也坐。"],["林委員楚茵：好，委員長以身作則，希望在提升所謂的僑務的同時，能夠不要面對……"],["徐委員長佳青：我儘量不要犧牲到我們僑務的各項活動。在這樣有限的資源之下，我要跟委員報告，說真的，包括像旅費這件事情，我們就已經頭很痛了，國內旅費本來就不多，然後現在統刪20%，事實上，這對我們已經造成非常嚴重的影響，因為我們全國到處都有僑生，所以我們要去視察，單單是這些，像我們要到中南部、東部去的時候，其實我們現在每一個處大家頭都在抱著燒，畢竟這個費用又不能流用，到時候這些國內旅費的部分，我們到底要怎麼辦？所以我們現在都開始說，如果只能去一個就不要去兩個，大家儘量把業務甚至跨處室的要整併在一起，變成僑生處的人要同時執行僑民處或者僑商處的業務，或是僑商處的人要同時執行僑民處的業務，這個確實會造成我們在分工上很大的困擾。"],["林委員楚茵：沒錯。"],["徐委員長佳青：為了降低我們的旅費。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我相信各部會像僑委會，現在講得非常清楚，這個就是整體的，預算該刪就刪，但是刪成這樣的時候引發困難。還有，我們該做的事情，或者是就像報告所講的，中國運用各種方式滲透，你有特別提到，比如說英文名字到底是所謂的Spring 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請國科委吳主委請主委備質詢 謝謝陳委員好"},{"start":17.847,"end":35.084,"text":"首先還是要跟主委您討論您在出席大專院校校長會議的時候說到我們台灣沒有自己的諾貝爾獎得主覺得是丟臉的日韓都有他們本土培育的諾貝爾獎得主台灣一個都沒有一定有問題那出了什麼問題呢大學自己要檢討"},{"start":37.166,"end":55.644,"text":"國會近期也表示說會鼓勵本土研究落地相信會更有機會拿諾貝爾獎主任您覺得喔認為您覺得說國會未來會用什麼方法來協助我國學者或者說您覺得以後我們學術的指標就是要以永多諾貝爾獎為主"},{"start":58.02,"end":73.889,"text":"謝謝陳委員我其實是覺得我們國科會每年編列這些科技算是非常寶貴的我們要好好的運用我希望能夠更有效率的來協助我們學界但是我們的學術界自己也要努力的來檢討我們自己的這個在"},{"start":75.99,"end":91.72,"text":"高等教育上面的一些制度這些制度其實不是只有政府的法令規章而是很多制度我們現在是學術自由很多制度是學校自己要訂的我是在鼓勵我們各大學特別是研究型的大學"},{"start":92.72,"end":115.79,"text":"能夠好好檢討我們自己是不是把很多的這個指標項目做了錯誤的這個解讀能夠來鼓勵我們的學界寶貴的人力做非常前瞻對人類社會有重大貢獻這種研究那創造人類的福祉如果能夠這樣做的話將來我們在全世界被認可的這個機會就大為提升得到各種"},{"start":118.991,"end":127.147,"text":"我想請教主委您覺得在諾貝爾獎的得獎類別之中我們哪一個領域會有比較高的得獎率"},{"start":127.915,"end":156.848,"text":"我們在各種科學領域其實我們都有非常好的人力很好的這個素質但是在研究上面不要太短視精力也就是說只是為了要短期內得到很多論文的發表算這個paper的數量而是能夠長期做更重大的貢獻特別是在創新上面不要去追隨別人別人的研究只是想要因為那個領域很容易發表論文就追隨別人"},{"start":157.768,"end":167.953,"text":"一直在同一個領域在那邊累積論文世界而是能夠創新創新這個才是最重要我相信說您是好意的啦那其實本席這邊要強調就是說諾貝爾獎的確是說在學術界在國際間是最重要也是最高的榮譽那台灣雖然目前沒有諾貝爾獎的得主"},{"start":176.237,"end":197.395,"text":"但是其實我國在國際間半導體是有很舉足輕重的地位那在民主國家中也是很優秀的很堅韌的民主自由在培養學者跟期待中我們可以調整腳步我們也可以轉變方向但其實我們還是要自我肯定我們國家我們國內這個優秀的科研技術溫暖的人文實力以及建立這個民主制度"},{"start":198.135,"end":215.541,"text":"我非常同意陳委員講的所以並不只是得到諾貝爾獎才能夠得到肯定是 我們的人力非常優秀台灣人是很聰明然後很勤奮的可是我們好好地鼓勵我們這些人員做創新的東西我們在全世界會被肯定的會更有機會"},{"start":216.141,"end":241.397,"text":"好 謝謝主委 接下來再跟您請教關於台積電到美國設廠的這個問題台積電到美國投資一千億美元那相當多的這些供應商也紛紛表示說會隨著台積電的東進那所以說台積電他到美國投資加上這些供應商他帶去的效益是一定超過一千億的那本席這邊要討論的是說如果台積電過去了供應商也過去了那台灣的戲盾會不會被削弱"},{"start":242.538,"end":261.12,"text":"報告委員我們的台積電它在台灣的投資其實是高於在國外的投資而且這個還在進行當中所以我們國科會在各個園區來協助台積電的發展這個腳步從來沒有停下來現在也沒有現在它的需求還在增加當中"},{"start":261.761,"end":265.023,"text":"主委我這邊想請教當從業者跟廠商都指出都明確的感覺到說台灣矽頓可能會被削弱的時候我們國客會這邊的想法跟做法是什麼我們有什麼方法可以作為說我們確保台灣的矽頓或是說當我們台灣在科技界被提及不再是因為台積電的時候那我們剩下的優勢是什麼"},{"start":283.732,"end":302.576,"text":"其實本席的憂慮也是我們一般的民眾看到這些報導他的憂慮其實我也知道說國科會這邊你們不僅是台灣基礎科研的推動者也應該是我們台灣科技這個關鍵的這些科技跟技術的領頭羊那如果我們台灣的西頓不在台灣的下一個護國神山是什麼是我們現在對在國際間也很"},{"start":306.417,"end":319.337,"text":"受重視的這些太空科技的產業或者說是我們還有其他的優勢那我希望說我們國科會這邊可以帶領因為國人看到這些報導一定會有憂慮那我也希望國科會可以為國人消除這些憂慮"},{"start":321.366,"end":349.232,"text":"謝謝委員我們的確在各個前瞻科技的這個領域我們都有投入所以不是只有半導體但是特別因為半導體現在對我們非常重要所以我們在半導體就有這個金創台灣計畫這個金創台灣計畫我們第一個重點就是要協助我們的這個半導體前瞻製程製造這個產業能夠持續保持優勢所以在學界投入我們在產業也投入所以這是一個第一個重點"},{"start":349.992,"end":371.621,"text":"那在剛剛我們早幾年也提到這個這個早也提到這個AI的產業這個AI的產業的這個發展我們會從過去我們在製造為主的就是這個雲端伺服器以及當然半導體也是製造為主的這個產業我們會逐步發展到支持我們的百工百業"},{"start":372.361,"end":378.505,"text":"希望在各個行業您的意思是說我們不用焦慮說因為台積電到美國去投資了其實我們的優勢還是在的反而是因為我們台積電到美國去接觸到國際這些科技發達的國家我們更有實力在台灣能夠實現我們從這個半導體跟硬體製造來協助我們發展其他領域然後我們的優勢更為強大"},{"start":398.318,"end":419.645,"text":"謝謝主委您的說明接下來我想請教主委關於我們布拉格前進基地的狀況在去年你們有說會做調整那我想請教說你們現在目前調整如何我們要期待說這個設置目前這個設置可以提供未來我們在科研上有什麼其他的效益還有要請教說我們會不會在其他的國家再設置類似的這些基地或地點"},{"start":421.004,"end":442.922,"text":"我們原來在布拉格設立的那個基地是要台灣派人到那邊去訓練他們的學生但是我們其實人力不足我們在台灣連自己的老師都不夠那其實根本沒有能力去做這個事情那其實捷克人也不會覺得台灣人去那邊用英語教他們學生會教得比較好老實講是不會啦"},{"start":443.602,"end":457.591,"text":"所以我改變政策就是我們加強跟捷克理工大學的雙邊真正進到前瞻半導體研究這個領域所以我們這個基地目前這個基地轉型為一個怎樣的設置它變成一個怎樣的性質是一個合作共同合作研究的一個基地"},{"start":466.628,"end":489.174,"text":"其實我這邊也理解就是說我們因為相關政策的規劃那我們在施行的時候也要符合就是不管是國際趨勢或整個的局勢的變化但是我們要將台灣的科技實力跟優勢如何進一步的協助到我們其他的盟友或是其他的國家優秀人才來吸引到台灣我也希望說你們有一些更有亮點的"},{"start":489.594,"end":493.738,"text":"規劃能夠更有一些實質的效益這個部分你們後續對這個轉型的這個基地的一些相關的規劃是不是也可以一份報告給我辦公室好沒問題謝謝陳委員好接下來我想請教諸位台鐵在今年1月的時候宣布跟災防中心我們要結合這個科技跟鐵路資源並且因應氣候的這個變遷來提升"},{"start":513.037,"end":525.606,"text":"鐵路在極端氣候下的這個防災的韌性那我想請教主委目前進度怎麼樣我們這個研發的成果預計什麼時候可以投入使用那災防中心目前還有推動哪些跨部會的這些災防計畫的這個科研的相關的規劃謝謝陳委員這個計畫就是去年因為因為這個台鐵在發聯"},{"start":533.791,"end":552.916,"text":"山區因為土石流出了這個事故那個時候我就請我們災防中心要啟動一個計畫來協助台鐵因為整個全台灣所有的鐵公路這種巡檢現在都沒有人力沒有人力可以去做巡檢那現在你們進度怎麼樣那我們的進度我請陳主任來報告一下"},{"start":554.225,"end":570.284,"text":"委員好,我們大概跟台鐵簽下了合同以後,MOU完了以後我們是定期每天都會提供即時的資訊給他們一些參考我們跟各部會大概目前總共有17個單位已經跟我們有簽MOU了你們提供給台鐵的訊息大概有哪些?"},{"start":575.149,"end":603.19,"text":"包括天氣的變化還有下雨的即時資訊下雨就是每個小時它的衝擊大致上在周遭的環境裡頭所有的訊息都會提供給它我們其實今年會啟動一個就是把它沿線所裝的監視攝影機AI化將來自動去做分析因為現在沒有人力看那些攝影機了已經連看都沒有人力看了"},{"start":603.85,"end":628.043,"text":"更不用談這個巡檢本席在你們災防中心建設的這個3D災害詮釋地圖裡面有發現其實上面有一些資料災害的資料包括像土石流斷層淹水等等但是其中的這個淹水的這個詮釋模擬全台只有四個縣市有淹水模擬資料其中有三個縣市的資料是水利署提供台北市的資料是由市政府提供災防中心在建設淹水模擬圖"},{"start":629.424,"end":657.615,"text":"的時候有收集資料上的困難嗎為什麼我們其他縣市沒有辦法建置那如果是沒有困難的我希望說災防中心這邊可以盡速的將這個全台淹水模擬圖建置完成請問你們什麼時候可以完成報告委員其實我們都有建置因為主責單位有水役署啊他來建置這些淹水模擬那我們把這些圖層把它視覺化然後提供給各地你們都有建置但是現在資料上顯示只有四個縣市啊沒有顯示出來啊"},{"start":659.342,"end":678.988,"text":"我們會把它補齊 沒有問題會補齊 什麼時候補齊報告委員 這個也需要地方政府配合他們如果願意的話 其實我們資料都有我們都可以做這個分析 然後做這個預警那如果地方政府你們資料都有 但這不是你們建制的網站嗎你們要把資料放上去就可以了"},{"start":682.095,"end":686.019,"text":"主席請再給我一點時間我也要為我自己選區的鄉親來發聲其實我們受極端氣候的影響今年颱風來襲的時候災害發生也跟過往有些不同以前都是短時間強降雨造成的這些淹水的災情"},{"start":701.254,"end":706.82,"text":"但是在本席的選區沿海 彰化沿海 福星 深港地區頻頻出現了所謂的沿海的災情那在台灣的離島跟山區也曾出現過17起的超級的陣風這也是民眾很難以事先去預料的災害的情形"},{"start":717.671,"end":740.202,"text":"所以本席這邊會希望說災防中心也要跟氣象署跟農業部這邊要密切的合作將近年颱風所帶來的相關的災害情形數據呢能夠結合這個前世地圖那民眾可以清楚的知道颱風來襲的時候需要做什麼防台的準備這個部分你們可以去研議嗎好 我覺得這部分我們可以把它加進來需要多久的時間"},{"start":741.633,"end":746.336,"text":"其實我這邊我要特別提一下沿海造成的障礙其實它不同於下雨你可以去預估甚至可以實際測量那我提一下2023年10月小犬颱風沿海的地區有風大沒有下雨就是風很大然後這個鹽粒子都附著在這個配電線路上的礙子造成了雲加還有我們彰化超過13萬戶的停電我的選區甚至停電超過三天以上"},{"start":769.668,"end":782.775,"text":"那這個在之前其實有一些民間的氣象研究者他們有提出警示但是沒有受到你們的重視所以我會希望說既然他們提出的這個警示也造成真的有這樣的災損這是很有參考價值的我希望說你們來研議跟相關的部會像氣象署我們農業部合作之外也希望可以納入對地方氣象比較熟知這個變化的這些民間的學者來配合"},{"start":797.523,"end":811.933,"text":"把他們意見納入讓我們的民眾可以清晰的比較明確的知道說當這個颱風來襲可能造成了災損的範圍或者情況是怎麼樣讓他們可以預先來做這個預防好這部分我們會納入謝謝委員好謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":247,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時3分）謝謝主席，請國科會吳主委。"],["主席：請主委備詢，謝謝。"],["吳主任委員誠文：陳委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委早安。首先還是要跟主委您討論，您在出席大專院校校長會議的時候說到，我們臺灣沒有自己的諾貝爾獎得主，覺得是丟臉的，日韓都有他們本土培育的諾貝爾獎得主，臺灣一個都沒有，一定有問題，出了什麼問題大學自己要檢討。國科會近期也表示會鼓勵本土研究落地，相信會更有機會拿諾貝爾獎。主委，您覺得國科會未來會用什麼方法來協助我國學者，或者說您覺得以後我們學術的指標就是要以勇奪諾貝爾獎為主嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝陳委員，我其實是覺得我們國科會每年編列這些科技預算是非常寶貴的，我們要好好的運用，我希望能夠更有效率地來協助我們學界，但是我們的學術界自己也要努力地來檢討我們自己在高等教育上面的一些制度，這些制度其實不是只有政府的法令規章，而是我們現在是學術自由，很多制度是學校自己要訂的，我是在鼓勵我們各大學，特別是研究型的大學，能夠好好檢討我們自己是不是把很多的指標項目做了錯誤的解讀，能夠來鼓勵我們學界寶貴的人力做非常前瞻、對人類社會有重大貢獻的這種研究，創造人類的福祉。如果能夠這樣做的話，將來我們在全世界被認可的機會就大為提升，得到各種……"],["陳委員秀寳：我想請教主委，您覺得在諾貝爾獎的得獎類別之中，我們在哪一個領域會有比較高的得獎率？"],["吳主任委員誠文：其實我們在各種科學領域都有非常好的人力、很好的素質，但是在研究上面不要太短視近利，也就是說只是為了要在短期內得到很多論文的發表，算paper的數量，而是能夠長期做更重大的貢獻，特別是在創新上面，不要去追隨別人的研究，只是因為那個領域很容易發表論文，就追隨別人，一直在同一個領域累積論文數，而是能夠創新，這個才是最重要的。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，主委，我相信您是好意的，其實本席在這邊要強調，諾貝爾獎的確在學術界、在國際間是最重要也是最高的榮譽，臺灣雖然目前沒有諾貝爾獎的得主，但是其實我國的半導體在國際間是有很舉足輕重的地位，在民主國家中也是很優秀的、很堅韌的民主之友，在培養學者跟期待中，我們可以調整腳步，我們也可以轉變方向，但其實我們還是要自我肯定我們國內優秀的科研技術、溫暖的人文實力，以及堅毅的民主制度。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我非常同意陳委員講的，我們的……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以並不只是得到諾貝爾獎才能夠得到肯定。"],["吳主任委員誠文：是，我們的人力非常優秀，臺灣人是很聰明、很勤奮的，我們好好的鼓勵我們的人員做創新的東西，我們在全世界會被肯定的，會更有機會。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝主委。","接下來再跟您請教關於台積電到美國設廠的這個問題，台積電到美國投資1,000億美元，相當多的供應商也紛紛表示會隨著台積電東進，所以說台積電到美國投資，加上這些供應商，它帶去的效益是一定超過1,000億的。本席這邊要討論的是，如果台積電過去了，供應商也過去了，那臺灣的矽盾會不會被削弱？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，台積電在臺灣的投資其實是高於在國外的投資，而且這個還在進行當中，所以我們國科會在各個園區協助台積電的發展，這個腳步從來沒有停下來，現在也沒有，現在它的需求還在增加當中。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委，我這邊想請教，當業者跟廠商都指出，明確感覺到臺灣矽盾可能會被削弱的時候，國科會這邊的想法跟作法是什麼？我們有什麼方法可以確保臺灣的矽盾？或是當臺灣在科技界被提及不再是因為台積電的時候，那我們剩下的優勢是什麼？其實本席的憂慮也是我們一般的民眾看到這些報導後的憂慮，我也知道國科會不僅是臺灣基礎科研的推動者，也應該是臺灣關鍵科技跟技術的領頭羊。如果我們臺灣的矽盾不再，臺灣的下一個護國神山是什麼？是現在在國際間也很受重視的這些太空科技產業嗎？或者說我們還有其他的優勢？我希望國科會這邊可以帶領，因為國人看到這些報導一定會有憂慮，我也希望國科會可以為國人消除這些憂慮。"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員，我們的確在各個前瞻科技的領域都有投入，所以不是只有半導體，但是特別因為半導體現在對我們非常重要，所以我們在半導體就有晶創臺灣計畫，這個晶創臺灣計畫的第一個重點就是要協助我們的半導體前瞻製程製造產業能夠持續保持優勢，所以在學界投入，我們在產業也投入，這是第一個重點。剛剛召委也提到AI的產業，這個AI的產業發展，我們會從過去在製造為主的產業，如：雲端伺服器、半導體，逐步發展到支持我們的百工百業，希望在各個行業……"],["陳委員秀寳：主委，您的意思是，我們不用因為台積電到美國去投資就感到焦慮，其實我們的優勢還是在的。"],["吳主任委員誠文：不用焦慮，反而是因為台積電到美國去接觸到國際這些科技發達的國家後，我們更有實力在臺灣實現，從半導體跟硬體製造來協助我們發展其他領域，反而我們的優勢更為強大。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝主委您的說明。接下來我想請教主委關於布拉格前進基地的狀況，在去年你們有說會做調整，我想請教你們目前調整得如何？我們要期待這個設置未來可以提供我們在科研上什麼其他的效益？還有要請教，我們會不會在其他國家再設置類似的基地或地點？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們原來在布拉格設立的基地是要從臺灣派人到那邊去訓練他們的學生，但其實我們的人力不足，我們在臺灣連自己的老師都不夠，根本沒有能力去做這個事情，其實捷克人也不會覺得臺灣人去那邊用英語教他們學生會教得比較好，老實講是不會啦！所以我改變政策，就是我們加強跟捷克理工大學的雙邊合作，真正進到前瞻半導體研究這個領域，這樣對雙方都好。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以目前這個基地轉型為一個怎樣的……"],["吳主任委員誠文：已經轉過來了。"],["陳委員秀寳：轉型為一個怎樣的設置？它變成一個怎樣的性質？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是一個共同合作研究的基地。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，主委，其實我也理解因為相關政策的規劃，我們在施行的時候也要符合國際趨勢或整個局勢的變化，但是我們要如何將臺灣的科技實力跟優勢進一步地協助到我們其他的盟友，或是把其他國家的優秀人才吸引到臺灣來？我也希望你們有一些更有亮點的規劃，能夠更有一些實質的效益。關於你們後續對轉型基地相關規劃的部分，是不是也可以提供一份報告給我的辦公室？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，沒問題，謝謝陳委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：好。接下來我想請教主委，臺鐵在今年1月的時候宣布將與災防中心合作，要結合科技跟鐵路資源，並且因應氣候變遷，來提升鐵路在極端氣候下的防災韌性。我想請教主委，目前的進度怎麼樣？你們研發的成果預計什麼時候可以投入使用？災防中心目前還有推動哪些跨部會災防計畫的科研相關規劃？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝陳委員，這個計畫是起於去年臺鐵在花蓮山區因為土石流出了事故，那個時候我就請我們災防中心要啟動一個計畫來協助臺鐵，因為全臺灣所有鐵公路的巡檢都沒有人力可以去做。"],["陳委員秀寳：現在你們的進度怎麼樣？"],["吳主任委員誠文：關於我們的進度，我請陳主任來報告一下。"],["陳主任宏宇：委員好。我們跟臺鐵簽下合同、MOU以後，我們是定期、每天都會提供即時的資訊給他們參考。我們跟各部會，目前總共有17個單位已經跟我們簽MOU了，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：你們提供給臺鐵的訊息大概有哪些？"],["陳主任宏宇：包括天氣的變化以及下雨的即時資訊，就是每個小時的衝擊，大致上在周遭的環境裡頭，所有的訊息都會提供給他。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們其實今年會啟動一個計畫，就是把它沿線所裝的監視攝影機AI化，將來自動去做警示。"],["陳委員秀寳：做分析就對了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：對，做分析、警示，因為現在沒有人力看那些攝影機了，已經連看的人力都沒有了，更不用談巡檢。"],["陳委員秀寳：本席在你們災防中心建置的3D災害潛勢地圖裡面有發現，其實上面有一些災害的資料，包括土石流、斷層、淹水等等，但是其中淹水的潛勢模擬，全臺只有4個縣市有淹水模擬資料，其中有3個縣市的資料是由水利署提供，臺北市的資料是由市政府提供。災防中心在建置淹水模擬圖的時候，有蒐集資料上的困難嗎？為什麼其他縣市沒有辦法建置？如果沒有困難，我希望災防中心可以儘速地將全臺淹水模擬圖建置完成。請問你們什麼時候可以完成？"],["陳主任宏宇：報告委員，其實我們都有建置，因為是由主責單位──水利署來建置這些淹水模擬，我們是把這些圖層視覺化，然後提供給地方政府。"],["陳委員秀寳：你們都有建置，但是現在資料上顯示只有4個縣市，其他都沒有顯示出來。"],["陳主任宏宇：我們會把它補齊，沒有問題。"],["陳委員秀寳：會補齊？什麼時候補齊？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，這個也需要地方政府配合，他們如果願意的話，其實我們資料都有，我們都可以做分析然後預警，如果地方政府……"],["陳委員秀寳：你們資料都有，但這不是你們建置的網站嗎？你們不是把資料放上去就可以了？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，這部分我們會執行，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：這個部分我要提一下，主席，請再給我一點時間。我也要為我自己選區的鄉親來發聲，其實我們受極端氣候的影響，近年颱風來襲的時候，災害發生也跟過往有些不同，以前都是短時間強降雨造成的淹水災情，但是在本席的選區──彰化沿海，像福興、伸港地區頻頻出現鹽害的災情，在臺灣的離島跟山區也曾出現過17級的超級陣風，這也是民眾很難以事先預料的災害情形。所以本席希望災防中心也要跟氣象署及農業部密切地合作，將近年颱風所帶來的相關災害情形、數據，能夠結合潛勢地圖，讓民眾可以清楚地知道颱風來襲的時候需要做什麼防颱的準備。這個部分你們可以去研議嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，這部分我們可以把它加進來。"],["陳委員秀寳：需要多久時間？"],["吳主任委員誠文：應該今年就可以……"],["陳委員秀寳：其實我要特別提一下鹽害造成的災害，它不同於下雨可以去預估，甚至可以實際測量。我提一下，2023年10月小犬颱風來襲時，沿海地區風大但沒有下雨，鹽粒子都附著在配電線路上的礙子，造成了雲林、嘉義和彰化超過13萬戶的停電，我的選區甚至停電超過3天以上。在此之前，其實有一些民間的氣象研究者就曾提出警示，但是沒有受到你們的重視，既然他們提出這個警示，也真的有造成這樣的災損，這是很有參考價值的，我希望你們可以來研議，除了跟相關部會，像氣象署、農業部來合作之外，也希望可以與比較熟知地方氣象變化的民間學者來配合，把他們的意見納入，讓我們的民眾可以比較明確地知道當這個颱風來襲可能造成的災損範圍或者情況是怎麼樣，讓他們可以預先做預防。"],["吳主任委員誠文：好，這部分我們會納入，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員質詢，感謝主委及部會官員，請回座。","接著繼續進行質詢，請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}},{"id":"159210","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159210","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb3917d216ea04fd58871e4a585984f629ce1d26ba49c773cdf6c8e88a0e872c475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"10:01:16 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謝謝黃教委早安你好有關於這個喬教的這個政策推動推廣我想這是你們喬委會最重要的工作之一是那尤其是近兩年來兩岸爭奪華人世界的代表性"},{"start":30.234,"end":41.1,"text":"喬教如何做得好可以強化對中華民國的認同感同時也有利於世界對我們的認同本席首先請教一下委員長"},{"start":42.859,"end":59.688,"text":"僑委會有自編華語學習的教材以提供各地僑校的運用教材的種類有寫華語向前走、新僑教雙周攤、全球華文網、華語文教應學"},{"start":65.256,"end":95.036,"text":"教學應用手冊和文化的教材那以上這些系列的教材提供喬校標準化的內容但各地學習的環境差異各地的學習差異要如何因應各國不同的華語語文教育需求以提供客製化的教材讓喬教學生更好融入華語文學的學習的環境"},{"start":96.418,"end":107.136,"text":"本席建議,僑委會的資源有限,要完善教材客製化有相當難度,但可以加強與僑校教師的雙向互動。"},{"start":110.339,"end":130.717,"text":"以提供橋校教師依標準化的教材客製化符合各地環境的補充教材的方向同時也鼓勵橋校教師向橋委會提供教協的反饋以立自編教材內容以"},{"start":133.339,"end":155.327,"text":"當地的併進若喬校教師自行編出列出優良的客製化教材喬委會是否能提供更好的獎勵以鼓勵更多教師投入的編寫教材因為這是本席的建議但是我不知道你的看法是什麼樣你提供一下好不好"},{"start":155.427,"end":177.742,"text":"好 謝謝黃委員的這個問題我們事實上雖然有僑委會自編的教材但是我們基本上是尊重全球各地的教學現場所以他們在每一年都會先預先為下一年的教材呢做出一個問卷調查讓他們自己填寫他們想要什麼樣的教材所以有一些他們想要買國內台灣的這些商業出版的教材我們也可以補助"},{"start":186.027,"end":205.612,"text":"那如果要用我們僑委會的自編教材我們也免費贈送那如果是要自編教材的我們當然予以鼓勵但是自編教材的那個成本因為很高所以確實過去曾經有人來跟我們提過但是我們沒有辦法僅為特定的一個區做那個教材的這個編審的預算"},{"start":207.793,"end":223.595,"text":"因為那個佔我們整體的預算會變得非常龐大所以這一塊我們都鼓勵他們自己做但是要我們再support這個基本上我們是比較難我們基本上補助的都是已經編輯好的這些印刷好的這些資料然後才補助他們"},{"start":224.937,"end":239.599,"text":"這個是我們可以做得到了那因為僑委會的預算規模是真的很小所以過去曾經有我們就鼓勵他說那這樣子的話是不是也可以跟我們的全球華文網做一個連結事實上我們是走在"},{"start":240.22,"end":260.009,"text":"各個橋區的前面所以如果真的有編的比我們好的我們一定會去向他們取經那甚至把他們的東西來納入那這樣子的話就是說那個成本我們大概就是可以來幫忙吸收然後再給其他的地方也可以來分享使用有些地方硬地質疑環境的因素"},{"start":262.169,"end":284.9,"text":"你們編的客製化裡面當然也因應地方的一些如果教材更好的話是不是也納入作為你們的客製化跟委員報告像我們以泰國來說我們就有特別針對小學的部分有泰文泰國版的然後初中的華文也特別有為泰國編初中版的那所以這些都是有因地制宜因為像因為"},{"start":285.7,"end":305.678,"text":"泰國它有潑水節啦它有這個特別這個孤軍泰北孤軍的這些歷史嘛所以在這些教材裡面我們都會把當地的文化跟它的歷史特性加入這個教材的元素當中所以事實上我們都有顧慮到各地在發展的時候那因為我們泰北地區的橋校數量算不少將近快100間所以我們願意為他們統編一套這樣子的教材來運作"},{"start":312.884,"end":335.772,"text":"那如果是在歐美國家 美國 北美洲 我們也可以同頭的在做可是他們可以自己選不同版本他想要選康宣版 我們就讓他選康宣版他想要選那個南伊版 我們就讓他選南伊版他要選僑委會版 我就讓他選僑委會版本席去年特別是有到太平去瞭解他們各校各校的這些需求我想你們從這個方面去努力 好不好"},{"start":336.652,"end":356.942,"text":"有關於僑商輔導與產業連結那沈昭偉在這個桌山安排國防報告四年期國防總體驗本席發現這一次的四年期國防總體驗有一個明顯的特色就是特色強調全民民主供應鏈的連結"},{"start":359.447,"end":373.064,"text":"在民主供应链的内涵是什么在强化台湾与海外侨商的产业链的连结促进双方互惠合作上有办法配合国防总体验的方向吗你来提一下"},{"start":373.836,"end":374.096,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":403.516,"end":421.951,"text":"我們現在講的是第一個有辦法配合國防總體驗的方向嗎現在這個是有一點空洞的感覺委員這個當然我們是最下游的單位就是說今天如果國防部的全民動員署他要我們配合做什麼我們就會去"},{"start":423.212,"end":429.675,"text":"事先先預防的準備就是說盤點我們到底有什麼量能比方說我們在國內我們大概有4萬的僑生那4萬名僑生他們在這個特殊的緊急狀況比方說地震發生或者是大淹水的時候我們都是怎麼樣第一時間就去盤點包括在當地學校的一些情形"},{"start":443.422,"end":446.224,"text":"所以這個資料我們平常就在準備那抑或是在海外的僑團我們現在也是一樣的就是都平時有做這些訓練課程強化他們的這個防災意識然後韌性增加那必要時候怎麼樣做整體動員的部分這個我們現在也開始在做模擬訓練中我們會透過各種會議當中來安排比方說一年一度我們就有僑務委員會議"},{"start":469.062,"end":472.385,"text":"那僑務委員會議來自全球180個僑務委員他們返國的時候我們也會安排這些相關的課程那他每一個人就是一個總指教官他回到他的這個僑區他就要在他當地的僑團去進行相關的這些串聯的"},{"start":486.188,"end":512.564,"text":"所以其中最能夠與國防總體院掛鉤的大概是無人機產業的邀訪團既然四年期國防總體院是賴總統未來四年國防政策的核心概念僑委會應該鼓勵僑台商在國防產業全球的供應鏈上投注更多的資源這方面僑委會有什麼樣的想法跟作為"},{"start":513.024,"end":518.567,"text":"謝謝委員的這個提問我確實在這兩年呢從去年到今年每到每一個僑區我們都會做僑務座談那僑務座談的報告當中呢我都會特別提醒這一點就是說在全球這個趨勢的變化下安全已經是一個非常重要的議題所以鼓勵大家可以投資在除了說AI、半導體、資通訊以外那麼軍工產業這一塊"},{"start":540.401,"end":559.652,"text":"因為我們是做很多的產業鏈的搭配那所以這個產業鏈搭配的過程當中的這個投資也是鼓勵橋台商可以踴躍來投資都關注橋台商因為現在動盪不安所以以橋台商來講也動盪不安所以我們也給他們一個根據的信息 好不好好的 謝謝 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包委員這個因為不一樣的學者他算的不一樣那我們現在其實環境部也想要啟動這個新一波的調查那我們現在在研議當中所以這個未來呢如果我們有好的數據再跟委員報告你現在的研究是2022年就是1.12倍每10個我們所謂的PM2.5的那個單位那PM2.5目前正佔我們肺癌的那個比例大概是16%左右所以這個還是要告訴國人"},{"start":101.684,"end":108.756,"text":"那我想要知道是說你知道我們現在引起肺癌而且是空污所造成大概是多少人死亡嗎"},{"start":111.538,"end":138.291,"text":"這個數字沒關係那我告訴你在2000年的時候全球市大概是100萬那預估在2050年的時候是350萬那這是我今天查的資料給你做報告雖然我們目前看到是有顯著的進步可是我相信因為我們生活在每天不一樣的大氣環境而且我知道空氣的變化是瞬息萬變所以我覺得每一個環節都必須要注意那我們來盤點一下我們目前的那個"},{"start":139.472,"end":150.647,"text":"我們的境外或者是說國內的污染來源狀況你看我們下一張我們現場這個就是說對我們現在很進步可是3月11號有拉警報你知道警報的原因是什麼嗎"},{"start":151.926,"end":172.873,"text":"那天有一些境外加上吹東風吹東風的影響然後西半部是一個很穩定的下沉氣流然後這個溫度又很低混合層比較低那你有告訴國人這件事情嗎有沒有通知各個縣市政府有有有這個也有應變的體制大概是多少的時間請問我們大氣司司長來"},{"start":174.639,"end":194.524,"text":"我最主要來講的原因就是說希望有即時性報委員其實這個空瓶在前兩天發覺這空瓶不好的時候我們其實檢測預報就已經通知各縣市那各縣市就其實接到通知以後他其實已經轉職所有的包含長照醫療等相關機構還有學校有確切的時間嗎有嗎"},{"start":196.104,"end":205.958,"text":"我們可以再提供給你們我們比較倒楣就在南部你看永遠都是在下風措也就是說它比較不容易揮發的地方那有沒有針對這個部分來做努力"},{"start":206.877,"end":233.077,"text":"因為這個是整個台灣地形造成這個氣候的一個原因所以南部要馬上能夠很立即的改善要降到很快這個氣象的因素這個環境的因素我知道是環境的因素很重要可是我說我們有沒有在做努力有的確有在做努力例如說像未來的這個例如說我們能源結構的改變或是說我們汽機車能夠減少其實各種的負載其實都是有用的可是目前看到我們的檢測站目前全國是只有87站"},{"start":234.498,"end":256.496,"text":"那就針對我說 比如說我住三地門 比如說我等一下要去內埔就沒有這種鄉鎮市區的一個所謂的一個index那我今天要去旅遊 我要去台東旅遊 比如說我要去卑南鄉旅遊那我必須知道那邊的P2.5 或者說那邊P2.5的來源 它的污染源是什麼如果能夠更精確的話 是不是可以導引我做一些生活上的改變"},{"start":257.977,"end":280.157,"text":"因為現在還是有一些這種微型的感測器的佔那個比較便宜那個就可以普測我們現在台灣大概還有1萬多個這種所謂的這個IoT的微型的這個空氣感測器那可以做但是那個其實他的變動性不確定性很高準確性所以那我們現在是兩個會去以我們環境部標準的會跟他去做搭配所以未來我們可以嘗試的來試看看我們會來規劃一下"},{"start":281.138,"end":302.877,"text":"那我希望說那個點多設一點不然有些人會覺得說他永遠都在參考屏東市的我永遠都是參考潮州的可是我明明就不是住在那裡可以嗎好 委員我們會來研究一下OK 那針對我們目前的我們台灣的地形跟一些季節的影響我相信這些都是很複雜的所以我希望我們有我們自己的大氣的一個模式"},{"start":303.397,"end":322.345,"text":"所以是不是應該更跨部會比如說國科會中研院來針對我們自己的空汙氣象學來做研究所以應該是要針對我們的科技專案計畫來針對我們台灣各個地區各個不同一個所謂的地形做全方位的一個模型的研究或是建制可以嗎"},{"start":322.785,"end":347.916,"text":"報告委員因為我們去年那個NASA的飛機有兩趟次飛來台灣其實剛剛委員畫的那個圖就是那個計畫出來的結果那現在的確委員提到的國科會中央院我們正在準備想要進行這種跨部會的大型的甚至跟流行病學例如說我們的這個健康的資料庫相互的搭配那委員再給我們一點點時間規劃好之後再來貴院報告OK如果可以的話可以通知我嗎"},{"start":348.516,"end":369.613,"text":"好 可以就是有成果的話那因為我們有一個空瓶的白皮書大概在3月底4月初的時候會出來我們都認為說空瓶是致癌物大家也確信那你知道它不僅是致癌物它也可以縮短因為你已經離癌了還是暴露在這樣的污染物當中你會縮短它的生命"},{"start":371.367,"end":384.809,"text":"對對會你知道那現在我們奇怪我們的小朋友也是生活在這樣的一個環境當中你知道對他的哪方面有些影響嗎對他各種的發育甚至說呼吸器官都會有潛在的影響"},{"start":385.472,"end":410.235,"text":"我們研究了一下我看了2024年所謂的environmental health的一個文獻他說在整體表現如果每一個單位他可以減少0.27那所謂的performance IQ的話可以減少0.39很多那如果是語言上的一個表現的話會減少0.20這是每一個單位也就是說如果我們現在是10個單位的話你就乘以10"},{"start":411.016,"end":437.634,"text":"所以你就知道這24小時鋪了在那個環境當中小朋友的對他的智力對他的行為或者是語言的發展都有很大的影響所以我們一直在講說我們一直有在努力可是上次有看到有2000個固定污染源其實都一直在重複在發生而且是在距離不到學校500公尺的一個地方一直在重複的在採訪可是這些有在進步嗎"},{"start":439.274,"end":462.957,"text":"這個其實是有的啦但是我必須也坦誠跟委員報告有些其實做得還不夠因為我是覺得有些在學校附近的工廠他也缺乏跟鄰里之間的防護的意識這個我們是希望說未來跟學校家長會還有各方面我們今年會希望說建立幾個案例譬如說屏東的獅子國中他旁邊就有一個釐清廠他的這個下封處就是學校其實這個未來我們希望"},{"start":463.557,"end":478.016,"text":"我想說社會福部經濟部跟教育部跟地方政府都應該我們審慎考慮我們學校桌尾或者是說我們養護機構啊或是醫院啊或者是這些我們需要特別照顧的這些亞健康的族群的所在地好不好好 可以"},{"start":478.857,"end":493.619,"text":"我看到了新竹市政府有一個不錯的就是空氣品質維護區也就是針對麻街兒童院附近的這個籌劃那就是說我們能不能有一個就是相對應的就是說你們去學習好的然後把這個匯集到全國這樣子"},{"start":494.5,"end":512.769,"text":"好 委員提的這個建議就是我們想做的因為我們全國現在有八十幾個空氣品質維護區未來如果可以把它擴大的話 現在有八十五個啦那未來如果擴大 像委員提到那些地方的話我覺得這個是對我們保護弱勢族群是有很大的幫助的OK 好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝委員 謝謝部長 請回"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":389,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（9時56分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：盧委員早！"],["盧委員縣一：早！我們今天就談PM2.5的事情，我想先知道，你覺得近年來的進步最主要原因是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實是很多人的努力啦！例如之前管制大型柴油車的移動污染源，當然，電力業的減煤也是一種新的做法，另外一個就是如果未來我們要推動淨零，整個生活型態的轉變其實也可以造成PM2.5的減量。"],["盧委員縣一：目前我們的PM2.5大概是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：全國大概是12.8。"],["盧委員縣一：有那麼好嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：有、有、有！但是南部比較高一點點。"],["盧委員縣一：目前OECD的標準是10，所以我們還是要朝10的方向來努力，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以！"],["盧委員縣一：我先問你一下，每10個單位的PM2.5濃度對癌症的相對風險大概是多少？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，不同學者的計算不一樣，其實現在環境部也想啟動新一波的調查，我們正在研議當中，未來如果有好的數據，我們再跟委員報告。"],["盧委員縣一：根據2022年的研究，每10個單位的PM2.5對癌症的相對風險是1.12倍，PM2.5目前大約占肺癌成因的16%左右，所以這點還是要告訴國人。我想要瞭解的是，你知道現在引起肺癌，而且是空污所造成的大概有多少人死亡嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個數字我……"],["盧委員縣一：沒有關係，我告訴你，在2000年的時候，全球大概是100萬人，預估2025年是350萬人，這是我今天查的資料，給你做參考。雖然我們目前看到的是有顯著的進步，但是我相信因為我們生活在每天不一樣的大氣環境，而且也知道空氣的變化是瞬息萬變，所以我覺得每一個環節都必須要注意。","現在我們來盤點一下目前境外和國內污染來源的狀況，雖然你說我們現在很進步，可是3月11日空污有拉警報，你知道警報的原因是什麼嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：那天有一些境外污染源，加上吹東風的影響，西半部是一個很穩定的下沉氣流，溫度又很低，混合層比較低。"],["盧委員縣一：那你有告訴國人這件事情嗎？有沒有通知各縣市政府？"],["彭部長啓明：有、有、有，這個有啟動應變機制。"],["盧委員縣一：大概是多少時間？"],["彭部長啓明：我請我們的大氣司司長來……"],["盧委員縣一：我要講的最主要是希望有即時性。你們大概用了多少時間？"],["黃司長偉鳴：報告委員，其實在前兩天發覺空品不好的時候，我們的監測預報就已經通知各縣市了。各縣市接到通知以後，其實就已經轉知所有的包含長照、醫療等相關機構還有學校。"],["盧委員縣一：有確切的時間嗎？"],["黃司長偉鳴：有，我們可以再提供給委員。"],["盧委員縣一：我們比較倒楣的是因為南部永遠都在下風處，也就是比較不容易揮發的地方，你們要針對這個部分做努力。"],["彭部長啓明：因為這是整個臺灣地形造成這個氣候的原因，所以南部要馬上能夠很立即的改善、要降到很快，氣象的因素、環境的因素是我們沒有辦法……"],["盧委員縣一：我知道環境因素很重要，可是你們有沒有在做努力？"],["彭部長啓明：有，的確有在做努力，例如說像未來能源結構的改變，或者是說我們的汽機車能夠減少，其實各種負載都是有用的。"],["盧委員縣一：目前全國的檢測站只有87站，比如說我住三地門，等一下要去內埔，就沒有這種鄉鎮市區的index，再如我今天要去臺東卑南鄉旅遊，我必須知道那邊PM2.5的濃度或者是它的來源、它的污染源是什麼，如果能夠更精確的話，是不是能夠導引我做一些生活上的改變？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為現在還是有一些微型感測器的站，那個比較便宜，所以就可以普設，現在臺灣大概就有一萬多個這種所謂的IoT微型空氣感測器可以做，但是它的變動性、不確定性很高，所以我們現在是兩個，就是以環境部標準的去跟它做搭配，所以未來我們可以嘗試看看，我們會來規劃一下。"],["盧委員縣一：好，我希望那個點能多設一點，不然我永遠都在參考屏東市的、永遠都在參考潮州的，可是我明明就不是住在那裡。可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，我們會來研究一下。"],["盧委員縣一：因為臺灣地形和季節的影響，我相信這些都是很複雜的，我希望我們有自己的大氣模式，所以是不是應該跨部會，比如說跟國科會、中研院來針對我們自己的空污、氣象學來做研究？應該要有科技專案計畫來針對我們臺灣各個地區、各個不同的地形來做全方位的模型研究或建置，可以嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為去年NASA的飛機有兩趟次飛來臺灣，剛剛委員出示的那個圖其實就是那個計畫出來的結果，的確，委員提到的國科會、中研院，現在我們正在準備想要進行跨部會的、大型的，甚至跟流行病學，例如和我們的健康資料庫相互搭配，請委員再給我們一點時間，規劃好之後再來貴院報告。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，如果可以的話，可以通知我嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以，就是有成果的話。因為我們有一個空品的白皮書，大概在3月底、4月初的時候會出來，到時候也請委員給我們指教。"],["盧委員縣一：我們都認為空污是致癌物，大家也如此確信。你知道嗎？它不僅是致癌物，如果已經罹癌還暴露在這樣的污染物當中，生命也會因此而縮短。"],["彭部長啓明：對、會！"],["盧委員縣一：你知道喔？"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["盧委員縣一：現在我們的小朋友也是生活在這樣的環境當中，你知道這對他的哪方面有影響嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：對他的各種發育，甚至呼吸器官都會有潛在的影響。"],["盧委員縣一：我研究了一下，2024年Enviromental Health的一份文獻說，整體表現如果每一個單位可以減少0.27，所謂的Performance IQ可以減少0.39，這樣很多喔！如果是語言上的表現的話，會減少0.24，這是每一個單位，也就是說，如果現在是十個單位的話，你就乘以十，所以你就知道24小時暴露在那個環境當中，對於小朋友的智力、行為或是語言的發展都有很大的影響，雖然你們一直在講說你們一直有在努力，可是上次看到有兩千個固定污染源，其實都一直重複在發生，而且是在距離學校不到500公尺的地方，雖然一直在重複裁罰，可是這些有在進步嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：其實是有的，但我也必須坦承跟委員報告，有些做得還不夠，我覺得有些在學校附近的工廠也缺乏跟鄰里之間的防護意識，我們希望未來跟學校家長會還有各方面……我們今年希望建立幾個案例，例如屏東獅子國中旁邊就有一個瀝青廠，它的下風處就是學校，其實未來我們希望跟地方合作。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我想衛福部、經濟部、教育部跟地方政府都應該審慎考慮學校周圍、養護機構、醫院或是需要特別照顧的亞健康族群的所在地，好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。"],["盧委員縣一：我看到新竹市政府有一個不錯的政策就是空氣品質維護區，也就是針對馬偕兒童院附近的籌劃，我們能不能有一個相對應的做法，就是你們去學習好的政策，然後把這個擴及到全國？"],["彭部長啓明：委員提的這個建議就是我們想做的，因為全國現在有85個空氣品質維護區，未來如果可以把它擴大的話，像委員提到的那些地方，我覺得這個對於我們保護弱勢族群是有很大的幫助的。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請王育敏委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}},{"id":"159208","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159208","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbd19b345c03dc3e75ad7e46c29134393cce1d26ba49c773cddc5543f29fdbc7c55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:43:47 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報告委員 這個是不是請我們化學署副署長來回應因為這個是我可能都看不到這個招標案來 副署長謝謝委員"},{"start":63.892,"end":75.758,"text":"我們的建構國際安全化學計畫以及能量性永續計畫是跨部會合作的部分那剛剛委員關心的部分他是跨部會的採購那是採購的一個權責都是在相關的部會裡面"},{"start":77.239,"end":97.618,"text":"所以你被掛名了 現在不知道自己進度在哪裡的事情不是 不是掛名 因為每個部會有他的採購程序那現在是三月嘛 那正在進行這個標案的一個審查跟採購作業這樣子所以上次有請教過部長 最後這些核生化處理車您要放在哪一個縣市政府 請問您現在溝通好了嗎"},{"start":98.559,"end":123.11,"text":"核生化處理的部分是國防部因為有儲屋的一個需求我們大概在15年前跟國防部合作買了就訂製了兩部的一個儲屋處理車但是年代已經很久遠了有些都已經老舊所以他必須要再重新去做採購的部分那至於說配在哪些縣市因為那是國防部他在主政做分配不會放在縣市應該是放在軍團的部分"},{"start":123.85,"end":150.668,"text":"所以其實你們這邊化學署是不清楚的只是你們跟人家一起掛了一個計畫報告委員不是不清楚我們都有定期的召開會議我們三個月才跟部會開過會議這樣子會了解他們的計畫所以還在採購中對整個計畫是有做控管的他整個進度都要報告到我們GPS的整個的流程上去做控管因為現在才三月份他是每一季要做一次報告的那就請部長回來"},{"start":153.189,"end":170.615,"text":"謝謝部長這個你應該也看過非常多的報導因為現在新興污染物這件事情很獲得重視而且超過六成的民眾缺乏對它的認識那當然其中包括塑料啊或是環境荷爾蒙啊以及除草劑農藥等等的殘留但這些東西一旦在空氣中經過降雨"},{"start":172.356,"end":184.685,"text":"到水裡面它同樣也會污染我們的水質今天您的報告大部分都在講到空氣品質但請問為什麼隻字未提空氣污染對水污染造成的防治跟因應呢"},{"start":185.496,"end":207.472,"text":"包委員因為目前我們台灣的水質例如說我們關心的PFAS等等它其實來源是我們實際上的污染直接排放到水體裡面去例如說PFAS的這個影響那我們國內的對重金屬對於水質的影響並不是很嚴重所以這個部分其實因為我們談的是PM2.5空瓶的危害那個掉到水裡面其實目前來看的話影響不是很高"},{"start":208.132,"end":230.086,"text":"對 我就是要跟你聊這個PFAS好 剛剛有講到說PFAS它會從空氣排到水你的水溫如果升高的時候其實PFAS就會揮發到空氣中水溫如果降低的時候PFAS就會留在水裡面所以您不覺得PFAS這樣子的新興污染物其實你也要列入你的空瓶空瓶的評鑑項目之一嗎"},{"start":231.844,"end":250.817,"text":"報告委員因為PFAS現在都是例如說我們國人過去用的例如說消防器或是食品的包裝那個為主那跟空氣裡面的量因為我們其實在去年跟NASA合作有去量空氣中裡面PFAS它的濃度跟亞洲的世界各國相比並不是特別的高"},{"start":251.738,"end":268.581,"text":"可是您看這是您之前2023年自己環境部做的報告耶你說2023年的時候全台灣你盤查起來有37座的淨水廠PFAS是超標的沒有其實沒有那麼的多我是不是請我們水保司司長簡單的回答一下"},{"start":270.267,"end":299.689,"text":"跟委員報告剛才那個37座當時這個是美國的標準美國標準是在去前年的時候訂了一個全世界最嚴格的標準那事實上這個標準基本上非常的嚴格幾乎是不能減出那各國都在做這個PFAS相關的一個研究那我們是在去年的時候訂了這個相關的我們國內的標準這個國內的標準基本上參考了這個世界的衛生組織還有鄰近國家那我們訂了這個標準之後目前的一個"},{"start":300.069,"end":326.779,"text":"所以你的意思是說美國的標準太嚴格我們自己台灣稍微下修一下不能這麼說基本上因為美國它有生產跟製造PFAS然後它的軍工廠這個飛機廠這個相關的這個使用比較多而且歷史比較久那PFAS它是我們講的所謂的一個難分解的一個有機物它在環境中可能會比較久一點那美國因為它長期使用而且製造所以它的問題是相較比較嚴重好"},{"start":328.26,"end":354.038,"text":"好那今年呢其實1月的時候我發給您公文說請問這個會期你有沒有想要修法的一些環境部相關的法案結果您回答我是沒有現在問一下齁請問這個飲用水管理條例既然你都已經知道說有37座淨水廠致癌物超標好也許小於37座那你認為這個20年沒有修的飲用水管理條例到現在都不用再去管它嗎"},{"start":355.274,"end":382.836,"text":"報告委員這個其實我們在去年的11月25號就發布飲用水的水質標準的條例這個是我們用我們自己環境部就可以發布這個有發布了所以你不需要調整目前已調整了PFAS我們例如說PFOA跟PFOS要小於50那個NGL那你知道罰環關於你的罰環有多久沒有修改了嗎這個可能很久了這個對 化學度基本上是回到飲用水管理條例母法的規定"},{"start":384.662,"end":403.991,"text":"我跟你說28年28年沒有修改了等一下我們來看一下你的法環大概是多少這個就是您剛講到的2023年發現PFAS超標但是你到2024年8月中旬才開始預告說要制定相關的規範所以您現在其實是把相關的規範調整到比美國稍微再寬鬆一點"},{"start":406.859,"end":424.953,"text":"我們是跟日本相同的跟日本是一樣的標準所以從預告到上路最後呢2027年7月才會開始有處罰機制所以2027年7月往前這樣子回推是不是就算是一個免罰的空窗期"},{"start":425.633,"end":454.845,"text":"包委員其實不是這個是讓他們有機會去改善跟緩衝因為現在我們這個有幾個淨水廠是的確他的標準是比較高一點點那事實上他們一直逐漸在降低當中所以他們為什麼需要這麼長的時間可以跟我們大家解釋一下嗎包委員那個其實要改善PFAS水質表現他的這個製程淨水的這個設備是要大幅度的改善所以自來水公司希望他們自己要努力一點所以要到2027年我們才能比較安心一點"},{"start":456.9,"end":470.578,"text":"跟委員報告基本上我們曾經有普查過也參考了美國污染的一個案例的做法我們會針對機場附近的進水場優先那這個部分調查的結果基本上我們的瞭解復驗的結果基本上都符合規定這個部分沒有太大的問題"},{"start":471.579,"end":494.633,"text":"那進一步的話就是前面的一個調查的部分我們已經排定了一個稽查的一個計畫那會逐步來做那這個部分我們也了解了這個其他國家的一個污染的一個案例的了解基本上地面水鐵的部分不用太大關心不用太大擔心那只要是附近有污染的類似這個機場的話我們要特別注意那我們已經有做過相關的一個"},{"start":494.733,"end":517.528,"text":"部長我給你看一下這個就是28年從來沒有調整的假使有污染飲用水最高是罰6萬假使有新興污染物污染的飲用水最高是處罰60萬這是民國86年訂的我不知道您有沒有機會可以到我們中南部我週末才到高雄跑行程你應該知道到處都是加水站吧"},{"start":518.513,"end":543.746,"text":"那你知道民眾會去加水的原因是什麼嗎報告委員其實目前我們環境部調查PFAS等等的污染只有地面水體只有一點點它就在機場的這個附近那至於說這個南部當然南部有些水質不好但是一部分是口感的問題啦但是其實水質的改善還是我們需要的目標那因為它真的要改善花的錢多不只六萬啦它其實要花可能要六百萬或六千萬以上所以要給它一點點時間"},{"start":544.286,"end":561.976,"text":"因為可能一般民眾很重視的比如說清道垃圾或是糞便 尿液化學物品 動物的殘骸等等污染水質28年前訂立的罰金額度最高不超過6萬來處分你覺得合理嗎你覺得你這個需要研議來修正調整嗎"},{"start":563.506,"end":576.131,"text":"對 報告委員 這個其實是一個樣但是有時候我們處理都是會按日來連罰啦所以我也不用擔心所以你覺得不用修改當然啦 其實只要公布的話其實對這些飲用水的提供者的單位壓力會更大"},{"start":577.765,"end":595.378,"text":"你覺得六萬壓力很大不是只要我們跟大家講說這邊水油不能喝那邊有問題好那我等一下我等一下給你看一下哪邊水有問題你應該記得之前其實有一個牽管造成這個水質的汙染所以當時呢我們全台北市就找了相關的人免費喔到"},{"start":596.198,"end":623.332,"text":"市立醫院去辦理抽血的檢查 檢查這些圈有沒有過量那這是我們辦公室從你們環境部拿到的資料你們最近呢有發現一間大學有一個神經毒性的本超標64倍然後被開罰但你們並沒有告訴國人這件事情那根據國家環境毒物研究中心裡列為本就是一個致癌物但是你們卻沒有發布這個消息請問為什麼"},{"start":626.842,"end":641.308,"text":"這個是一個簡易自來水那簡易自來水的意思就是由自己因為他這個自來水管線沒有到達他自己設置的那是以設置的一個處理基本上這個處理的設備附近我們有發現說他有堆置其他的一些物品"},{"start":642.088,"end":660.168,"text":"所以他的本是來自於他堆置其他的物品對 還有其他的相關的設施在那邊我們是覺得這個是一個問題所以我們後面去復驗的結果基本上已經都符合規定了那包含環保局的復驗還有檢疫治療所設置的管理單位那你們有關心這些師生的健康嗎"},{"start":662.677,"end":687.661,"text":"你們有關心這些失聲的健康嗎因為他們已經不知道暴露在這些神經毒性的本多久了這個部分因為對我們是覺得他是一個單一的一個事件因為這個可能還有這個相關的一個檢驗的問題都要重新再做一次確認所以我們復驗的結果基本上是符合規定所以你們復驗沒有那你們就覺得以前的這個本超標可能沒有對這群人造成危害"},{"start":691.155,"end":710.368,"text":"應該這麼說就是說這個本的這個項目基本上常常跟他的採樣也有很大的密切的關係所以我們也辦了復驗之後確定他沒有太大的問題那他們不用去接受一些檢查嗎這些已經暴露在這些本裡面的學校的工作人員"},{"start":713.146,"end":731.173,"text":"我們會再來跟這個科技大學做一個追蹤跟了解因為它基本上它是一個供水的這個簡易自然水的供水單位好我覺得這樣跟跟你們以前處理這個鉛重堵的事件有點落差太大了之後我會再跟你們追好嗎謝謝我再來了解謝謝謝謝好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長請回那接下來請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":320,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時43分）主席、各位委員還有各位官員。我也想請彭部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長早。記得上次我們質詢過掛在您所屬的一個計畫──建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計畫，這個計畫總經費要花96億元，今（2025）年正式上路。我也記得之前曾經質詢過您，今年我們預計用3,000萬採購第一臺核生化災害處理車，另外再花9,000萬買3臺化學災害處理車，共計1億2,000萬元。我想請問，目前這個招標和採購的計畫進度是如何？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是不是請我們化學署副署長來回應？因為我可能都看不到這個招標案。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，請。"],["陳副署長淑玲：謝謝委員。我們的「建構國家安全化學與韌性永續計畫」是跨部會合作的部分，剛剛委員關心的部分是跨部會的採購，採購權責都是在相關的部會裡面。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你被掛名了，現在不知道自己進度到哪裡……"],["陳副署長淑玲：不是掛名，因為每個部會有他的採購程序，現在是3月，正在進行這個標案的審查和採購作業。"],["陳委員菁徽：上次請教過部長，最後這些核生化處理車您要放在哪一個縣市政府，請問您現在溝通好了嗎？"],["陳副署長淑玲：核生化處理的部分是國防部，因為有除污的需求，我們大概在15年前跟國防部合作買了、訂製2部核污處理車，但是年代已經很久遠了，有些都已經老舊，所以他必須要再重新去做採購的部分。至於配在哪些縣市，因為是國防部主政、分配，不會放在縣市，應該是放在軍團的部分。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以其實你們化學署這邊是不清楚的？"],["陳副署長淑玲：不是……"],["陳委員菁徽：只是你們跟人家一起掛了一個計畫？"],["陳副署長淑玲：不，報告委員，不是不清楚，我們都有定期召開會議，我們上個月才跟部會開過會議，會了解他們的計畫。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以還在採購中？"],["陳副署長淑玲：是，但是……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["陳副署長淑玲：我們對整個計畫是有做控管的，他整個進度都要報告到我們GPS的整個流程上去做控管，因為現在才3月份，它是每一季要做一次報告。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，那就請部長，謝謝。部長，你應該也看過非常多報導，因為現在新興污染物這件事情很獲得重視，而且超過六成民眾缺乏對它的認識。當然其中包括塑料或環境荷爾蒙，以及除草劑、農藥等等的殘留，但這些東西一旦在空氣中經過降雨到水裡面，它同樣也會污染我們的水質。今天您的報告大部分都講到空氣品質，但請問為什麼隻字未提空氣污染對水污染造成的防制及因應？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，因為目前臺灣的水質，例如我們關心的PFAS等等，其實來源是我們實際上的污染直接排放到水體裡面，例如PFAS的影響。我們國內就重金屬對於水質的影響並不是很嚴重，所以這個部分，因為我們談的是PM2.5空品的危害，那個掉到水裡面，其實目前來看的話影響不是很高。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，我就是要跟您聊PFAS。剛講到PFAS會從空氣排到水，水溫如果升高的時候，PFAS會揮發到空氣中；水溫如果降低的時候，PFAS就會留在水裡面。所以您不覺得PFAS這樣子的新興污染物，其實你也要列入你的空品評鑑項目之一嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：因為PFAS現在都是，我們國人過去用的例如消防器或食品的包裝，以那個為主，跟空氣裡面的量，我們其實在去年跟NASA合作有去量空氣中裡面的PFAS，它的濃度與跟亞洲的世界各國相比並不是特別高。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是你看，這是您之前、2023年環境部自己做的報告，你說2023年全臺灣你盤查起來有37座淨水場PFAS是超標的。"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，其實沒有那麼多，我是不是請我們的水保司司長簡單回答一下？"],["王司長嶽斌：跟委員報告，剛才那37座，當時這個是美國在前年訂了一個全世界最嚴格的標準。事實上，這個標準基本上非常嚴格，幾乎是不能檢出。各國都在做PFAS相關的研究，那我們是在去年訂了這個相關的我們國內的標準，國內的標準基本上參考了世界衛生組織，包括鄰近國家，我們訂了這個標準之後目前的一個……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是美國的標準太嚴格，我們臺灣自己稍微下修一下？"],["王司長嶽斌：不能這麼說，基本上，因為美國有生產和製造PFAS，然後他的軍工廠、飛機廠相關的使用比較多，而且歷史比較久。PFAS是我們講的所謂難分解的有機物，它在環境中可能會比較久一點，美國因為長期使用而且製造，所以他的問題是相較而言比較嚴重。"],["陳委員菁徽：今年1月我發給您公文，請問這個會期你有沒有想要修法、一些環境部相關的法案，結果您回答我是沒有。現在問一下，請問飲用水管理條例，既然你都已經知道有37座淨水場致癌物超標，也許少於37座，那你認為二十年沒有修的飲用水管理條例，到現在都不用再去管它嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實我們在去年11月25日就發布飲用水的水質標準條例，是我們環境部自己就可以發布，這個有發布了。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你不需要調整？"],["彭部長啓明：目前已經調整了，就PFAS，我們例如PFOA和PFOS要小於50ng/L。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你知道關於你的罰鍰有多久沒有修改了嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這個可能很久了。"],["王司長嶽斌：對，罰鍰額度基本上是回到飲用水管理條例母法的規定，基本上……"],["陳委員菁徽：我跟你說，28年沒有修改了，等一下我們來看一下你的罰鍰大概是多少。這個就是您剛剛講到的，2023年發現PFAS超標，但是你到2024年8月中旬才開始預告要制定相關的規範，所以您現在其實是把相關的規範調整到比美國稍微再寬鬆一點。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，我們是跟日本相同的，跟日本是一樣的標準。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，從預告到上路，最後2027年7月才會開始有處罰機制，所以2027年7月往前這樣子回推，是不是就算是一個免罰的空窗期？"],["彭部長啓明：其實不是，這是讓他們有機會去改善及緩衝，因為現在我們有幾個淨水場的確標準是比較高一點點，事實上它們一直逐漸在降低當中。"],["陳委員菁徽：它們為什麼需要這麼長的時間，可以跟大家解釋一下嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：其實要改善PFAS水質，它的製程、淨水設備是要大幅度改善，所以自來水公司希望他們自己要努力一點。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以要到2027年……"],["彭部長啓明：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們才能比較安心一點？"],["王司長嶽斌：跟委員報告，基本上我們曾經普查過，也參考了美國污染的一個案例的作法，我們會針對機場附近的淨水場為優先。調查結果我們的了解，複驗結果基本上都符合規定，這個部分沒有太大的問題。進一步的話就是前面的調查部分，我們已經排定了一個稽查計畫，會逐步做。這個部分我們也了解了其他國家的污染案例，基本上地面水體的部分不用太擔心，只要是附近有污染的類似機場的話，我們要特別注意，我們已經做過相關的調查。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我給你看一下，這個就是28年從來沒有調整的規定，假使有污染飲用水，最高是罰6萬，假使有新興污染物污染了飲用水，最高是處罰60萬，這是民國86年訂的。我不知道您有沒有機會可以到我們中南部，我週末才到高雄跑行程，你應該知道到處都是加水站吧？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你知道民眾會去加水的原因是什麼嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：其實目前環境部調查PFAS等等的污染，地面水體只有一點點，就在機場附近。至於南部，當然有些水質不好，一部分是口感的問題，但水質的改善還是我們期望的目標。因為真的要改善，花的錢多，不只6萬，可能要花600萬或6,000萬以上，所以要給他一點點時間。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為一般民眾很重視的比如說傾倒垃圾、糞便、尿液、化學物品、動物殘骸等等污染水質，28年前訂定的罰金額度最高不超過6萬，你覺得合理嗎？你覺得需要研議修正調整嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，雖然是這樣，但其實我們處理有時會按日連罰，所以委員不用擔心。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你覺得不用修改？"],["彭部長啓明：當然，其實只要公布的話，對於這些飲用水提供單位的壓力會更大。"],["陳委員菁徽：你覺得6萬壓力很大？"],["彭部長啓明：不是，只要我們跟大家講說這邊的水以後不能喝、這邊的水有問題，他們的壓力就會很大。"],["陳委員菁徽：我等一下給你看哪邊的水有問題。你應該記得之前曾有鉛管造成水質污染，當時臺北市政府就找相關人等免費到市立醫院去抽血檢查血鉛濃度是否過量。本席現在出示的是本辦公室從你們環境部拿到的資料，你們最近發現某所大學飲用水中的苯超標64倍並予開罰，苯是具神經毒性的物質，但是你們並沒有告訴國人這件事情。國家環境毒物研究中心將苯列為致癌物，但是你們卻沒有發布這個消息，請問為什麼？"],["王司長嶽斌：這是簡易自來水，簡易自來水就是自來水管線沒有到達該處而自己設置的，在這個自己設置的處理設備附近，我們有發現他有堆置其他的一些物品……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以這個苯是來自堆置的其他物品？"],["王司長嶽斌：對，還有其他的相關設施在那邊，我們也覺得這是一個問題，所以後面去複驗的結果基本上已經都符合規定了，包含環保局的複驗，還有簡易自來水的設置管理單位……"],["陳委員菁徽：你們有關心這些師生的健康嗎？因為他們已經不知道暴露在這些具神經毒性的苯當中多久了！"],["王司長嶽斌：這個部分我們覺得它是一個單一的事件，因為可能還有相關的檢驗問題都要重新再做一次確認，所以我們複驗的結果基本上是符合規定。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你們複驗沒有，你們就覺得以前的苯超標可能沒有對這群人造成危害？"],["王司長嶽斌：應該這麼說，就是說苯的這個項目基本上常常和採樣也有很密切的關係，所以我們也辦了複驗，確定它沒有太大的問題。"],["陳委員菁徽：這些已經暴露在苯裡面的學校人員不用去接受一些檢查嗎？"],["王司長嶽斌：我們會再和這個科技大學做個追蹤和瞭解，因為基本上它是一個簡易自來水的供水單位……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我覺得這跟你們以前處理鉛中毒事件的做法有點落差太大，之後我會再跟你們追，好嗎？謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：好，委員，我再來瞭解。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長，請回。","接下來請盧縣一委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏"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謝謝代理召委有請國科會吳承文主委有請吳主委各位好主委好 主委早安"},{"start":22.579,"end":47.672,"text":"比AI還聰明主委早安今天是本會期第一次的輪值召委第一個議程立刻就來安排國科會來做業務報告也相信您可以看到本席對於科技發展真的非常重視但是不曉得主委對我國的科技發展是不是也能夠持續的發出同等的重視剛剛我看了你們的業務報告非常精彩"},{"start":48.092,"end":55.335,"text":"有提到很多的國際合作這一點我覺得非常非常的好也看到了非常多的副主委都在這樣的國際交流當中出現那剛剛林委員有提到的這個兵役的問題我確實真的覺得我們要趕快參考南韓在重點科技發展產業要把這些人才可以留下來"},{"start":65.518,"end":81.276,"text":"像我們有一個非常好的計畫叫Taiwan LLM裡面有一個非常好的研究員叫林彥廷他現在就去服兵役了那當然你說四個月說短不短但接下來有可能都會變成一年這個對AI來講四個月可能是四個世紀"},{"start":81.957,"end":100.637,"text":"一年很可能是一個好幾個世代的迭代希望主委可以評估一下盡快看我們能怎麼樣來照顧這些人才那我們今天檢視我們國歌會的業務報告我覺得還是想要來確認一下主委認為我們台灣的這個AI科研算完成了嗎"},{"start":102.821,"end":120.098,"text":"永遠不會完成沒錯嘛很好您的答案非常好包含我們的台德的計畫也一直都還在持續強化當中這個目前我們引頸期盼13B好像也還在做最後的確認當然很可能有很多原因啦包含資料啦等等"},{"start":121.38,"end":144.437,"text":"但是我想我們看到您的報告裡面其實我們今天的業務報告的內容可以看到通篇著重在AI產業化凡提及AI必說產業想請教一下主委你到底是忘了AI現在正處在您剛剛所提到的科研根本就還沒有完成的階段還是害怕想起來在科研領域當中AI是最重要的項目"},{"start":145.037,"end":163.677,"text":"一下子講AI產業化一下講產業AI化您是有一個非常重要的重點是AI科技的研發這是您的主責真的不要再來這個題說要甩鍋給速發部我想根據本席所知也跟您交流過上個禮拜五呢速發部跟國科會之間發生了一件大事"},{"start":164.338,"end":179.306,"text":"也許有很多國人或者也許在座的行政官員我都不確定你們清不清楚在行政院的強勢主導之下人工智慧基本法你們辛辛苦苦提出來這個草案跟規劃可以說是我們人工智慧發展的基本憲法"},{"start":180.406,"end":195.857,"text":"關乎了人工智慧未來的整體走向包含科技的研發結果行政院一聲令下粗暴的做成這樣的決定把AI人工智慧的這樣的一個觀點發展的主導權以及不管是方方面面的這個破壞的這個部分"},{"start":197.878,"end":219.584,"text":"從國科會主委您的手中奪走轉交給速發部想請教一下主委您對於行政院院長直接下達指令將AI基本法的主管機關由國科會你們擬定草案現在整件事情要移交給速發部國科會是不是有在黨政會議上表達您的意見或者抗議"},{"start":220.564,"end":245.768,"text":"報告委員這個在行政院討論的時候我是有參與那還有速發部的黃部長以及林政委、劉政委我們是共同認為接下來AI基本法進到我們要實施的階段以後一定會碰到很多應用上的這個層面那應用的部分是速發部在主政所以包含這個爭議性的問題產業發展的問題都是速發部的主政範圍"},{"start":249.509,"end":263.415,"text":"所以我剛剛問你嘛AI科研完成了沒你根本台灣還沒有發展科研人才也不夠你現在要說來做應用那我問主委剛剛我都理解請問要移交到速發部誰提出來的是共同討論的"},{"start":267.692,"end":282.549,"text":"我想這個文字上您既然在微笑我就不逼問了事實上您這個甩鍋的動作我不管這個鍋子是誰叫你甩的但實際上我是替在場的所有的國歌會的這些同仁報不平同時也對台灣的這個AI科研報不平"},{"start":286.773,"end":304.112,"text":"我們研議了一年結果呢我們整個AI的科研整個AI的基本法的這個所謂的根本大法呢包含了非常多的元素就這樣丟給速發部這是你們交給全民的答案嗎今天呢我們算了一下恰巧是主委您上任第三百天"},{"start":304.873,"end":327.945,"text":"不曉得主委是不是因為業務繁忙忘記了國科會業務職長本席幫您複習一下根據國科會技術委員會組織法第二條第四以及第五款重大科技研發計畫及資源學術研究之推動這是第四款第五款產業前瞻技術研發與學員創新政策之綜合規劃協調及推動"},{"start":330.146,"end":358.405,"text":"這都是你們的職長業務啊這難道不屬於AI嗎這跟AI科技研發沒有關係嗎結果呢為什麼國科院主委就任由我們的行政院您剛剛這麼尷尬的微笑說共同討論還不願意講誰先提出來的這個科學嗎自我閹割把行政院呢將人工智慧切割給整塊切給書發部的主管一語不發本席其實曾經期待主委您兼任科技政委"},{"start":360.885,"end":375.949,"text":"1965億的科技預算我們剛剛看到了還有包含3000億的這個所謂的AI晶片的計畫然後我們今年事實上當時我們是希望您可以做美國有AI沙皇我們也希望有AI沙皇早一點來推動這些東西結果我們發現該不會有人想把您變成拿錢不辦事的AI太上皇其實我們的這個資料也已經表示了"},{"start":385.771,"end":405.416,"text":"其實國科會投入AI科研的預算52億今年您在這個總質詢也提到了整個部會今年度增加的預算高達120幾到130億相較之下速發部的本部和資安署都跟我們表示今年度沒有編列AI研發預算是沒有"},{"start":406.356,"end":434.199,"text":"只有產業署呢勉強編列5.9億跟數位產業研發相關的以預算規模來看國科會您就是他們的10倍啊老實說很可能還要100倍才夠那接下來我們AI科研的責任卻完全甩鍋給速發部我剛剛已經提過了沒有人才沒有研發你怎麼去提應用你是要應用美國人的東西要應用哪些其他外部的人的東西嗎事實上我們希望可以提醒您"},{"start":435.325,"end":455.7,"text":"我們現在要做的真的是科研你們不要把這種畫紅線的這種機制說這是AI最重要的點是不是可以請主委回覆一下你是否同意既然你說那AI基本法都交給他們做啦那52億的AI科研預算要不要就交給速發部來主導"},{"start":458.321,"end":475.348,"text":"報告委員剛剛委員提到說國會要負責AI的科研這個才是重點我非常同意這一點就是因為這個樣子接下來AI基本法我們請數學部來做主政的單位我要全心來發展我們AI的研究"},{"start":475.968,"end":497.099,"text":"那這個AI的研究除了我們編列在各個學術處都有這個相關的預算之外我們也會委請中研研究院也要來加強這一塊所以就是不同意嘛是不是AI科研還是要在國科會嘛在國科會AI科研在國科會但是AI基本法的主政將來牽涉到應用所以一定是很多的這個產業的問題報告主委我們認為這樣子有錢無責在研發的部分"},{"start":504.122,"end":516.173,"text":"老實說這真的會變成AI太上華不是您願意的也許啦但是希望要跟行政院去溝通本席要在此宣告AI的科研需要人才需要產業才有辦法應用最後我們當然同步要來討論安全"},{"start":520.077,"end":524.741,"text":"但是現在台灣的AI研發完全就還在要加速的時候結果您來我們的辦公室做討論您提到這樣子的一個規劃的做法是要讓速發部來畫紅線要對人權保障我們不反對這件事情但是我們真正要發展的根本都還沒做我們現在已經被人家批評我們的軟硬不平衡都是硬體產業"},{"start":545.22,"end":551.722,"text":"我們的AI為什麼沒有產業就是沒有足夠的人才沒有足夠的科研結果我們現在來做這樣的一個轉換老實說我真的認為對台灣的AI的發展是非常非常危險我就在此提出這個我們之後還有很長的時間討論今天時間有限我想我還要再來談沒有電力"},{"start":566.147,"end":579.762,"text":"就沒有AI所以我想今天還有一個議題要請教您2025年1月8號舉辦行政院2025科技顧問會議當中有強調減碳政策要考量總能源的需求及預期2050年少5000億度的電力需求"},{"start":583.506,"end":606.42,"text":"務實探討提前佈局建議碳費收益用於支持加速減碳的低碳能源研究發展請問主委會議結論提及的碳費收益用於支持低碳能源的研究發展其中低碳能源包不包含核能核能的相關研究能否適用於碳費收益的應用"},{"start":608.599,"end":626.621,"text":"第一就是這個碳費收益的應用我們在這個行政科技顧問會議的結論其實我們的環境部也有參與所以他們也有接到相關的訊息會議第二就是說我們所有的捷徑能源將來都會列為我們在發展的過程當中最適用"},{"start":627.862,"end":655.529,"text":"都是可以討論的選項都可以但是它的條件就是要安全我們得到社會人民的共識這樣子報告主委事實上核能就是低碳能源接下來核能預計拿多少比例的經費跟風電光電拿到的資源希望不要大小眼全世界都在研究核電根據氣候變遷因應法有規定碳費的收入要納入溫室氣體管理機間的應用"},{"start":657.509,"end":677.542,"text":"我們也幫您看過了這個基金對用途的相關規定不外乎執行各種碳排檢量的工作而碳排檢量有很多種AI有可能可以來幫助這件事情包含資料數位化包含能源管理的優化包含幫助產業優化能源的使用效率幫助再生能源的發電效率提升等等"},{"start":678.422,"end":705.527,"text":"由於AI對電力真的有非常大量的需求所以我們一邊可能要節省我們可能還是一邊要做新的能源的探索不管是既有核能的演繹重啟或者新核能的導入我們希望主委長自學AI創新內閣主委您在科技整體來講扮演的部會這個角色非常非常的重要也應該要非常非常的科學所以我最後希望對您有兩點期許第一點"},{"start":708.191,"end":733.703,"text":"我希望能夠這個國科會身為低碳能源的核能相關研究應用的一個非常重要的主管機關千萬不要受到非核家園神主牌的干擾我們有看到美國上個月也有新技術的突破2月26號有技術突破可以用核廢料來發電這樣子的一些新的做法包含更安全的核能我相信國科會應該要讓更多的研究人員來投入第二點"},{"start":734.463,"end":744.37,"text":"AI的耗能呢加上碳排的這個能源結構也有可能會造成一些影響所以希望國科會去思考AI對減碳這件事情能做到什麼樣的幫助我們能不能用更低耗能的方式來研發能源希望我們從這個角度去看呢我們今年度開增的碳費就也許是一個非常適合的財源希望主委能夠代替我們全國的科研的同仁好好的溝通如果有需要本席也可以從旁協助可以嗎"},{"start":763.765,"end":770.267,"text":"謝謝委員好好謝謝葛如君委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":218,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時50分）好，謝謝代理召委。有請國科會吳誠文主委。"],["主席：有請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員誠文：葛委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：主委好。主委早安，今天是本席本會期第一次的輪值召委，第一個議程立刻就安排國科會來做業務報告，也相信您可以看到本席對於科技發展真的非常重視，但是不曉得主委對我國的科技發展，是不是也能夠持續地發出同等的重視？剛剛我看了你們的業務報告非常精彩，有提到很多的國際合作，這一點我覺得非常、非常的好，也看到非常多的副主委也都在這樣的國際交流當中出現。剛剛林委員有提到這個兵役的問題，我確實真的覺得我們要趕快參考南韓，在重點科技發展產業要把這些人才可以留下來，像我們有一個非常好的計畫叫Taiwan-LLM，裡面有一個非常好的研究員叫林彥廷，他現在就去服兵役了，當然你說四個月說短不短，但接下來有可能都會變成一年，對AI來講四個月可能是四個世紀，一年很可能是好幾個世代的迭代，希望主委可以評估一下，儘快看我們能怎麼樣來照顧這些人才。我們今天檢視國科會的業務報告，我覺得還是想要來確認一下，主委認為我們臺灣的AI科研算完成了嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：永遠不會完成。"],["葛委員如鈞：沒錯嘛！很好，您的答案非常好，包含我們的TAIDE計畫，也一直都還在持續強化當中，目前我們引頸期盼的13B好像也還在做最後的確認，當然很可能有很多原因包含資料等等。但是我們看到您的報告裡面，其實我們今天業務報告的內容可以看到通篇著重在AI產業化，凡提及AI必說產業。想請教一下主委，你到底是忘了AI現在正處在您剛剛所提到的科研根本就還沒有完成的階段，還是害怕想起來在科研領域當中AI是最重要的項目？一下子講AI產業化、一下講產業AI化。您有一個非常重要的重點是AI科技的研發，這是您的主責，真的不要再說要甩鍋給數發部。根據本席所知，也跟您交流過，上個禮拜五數發部跟國科會之間發生了一件大事，也許有很多國人，或者也許在座的行政官員，我都不確定你們清不清楚。在行政院的強勢主導之下，人工智慧基本法，你們辛辛苦苦提出這個草案跟規劃，可以說是我們人工智慧發展的基本憲法，關乎了人工智慧未來的整體走向，包含科技的研發，結果行政院一聲令下，粗暴的作成這樣的決定，把AI人工智慧這樣的一個觀點、發展的主導權，以及不管是方方面面擘劃的這個部分，從國科會主委您的手中奪走轉交給數發部。想請教一下主委，您對於行政院院長直接下達指令，將AI基本法的主管機關由你們國科會擬定草案，現在整件事情要移交給數發部，國科會是不是有在黨政會議上表達您的意見或者抗議？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，這個在行政院討論的時候，我有參與，還有數發部的黃部長以及林政委、劉政委。"],["葛委員如鈞：是。"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們共同認為接下來AI基本法進到要實施的階段，以後一定會碰到很多應用上的層面，應用的部分是數發部在主政，所以包含這個爭議性的問題、產業發展的問題，都是數發部的主政範圍……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。所以我剛剛問你AI科研完成了沒？"],["吳主任委員誠文：還沒有……"],["葛委員如鈞：臺灣根本還沒有發展科研，人才也不夠，你現在說要來做應用，那我問主委，剛剛我都理解，請問要移交到數發部是誰提出來的？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是共同討論的。"],["葛委員如鈞：好啦，您既然在微笑，我就不逼問了啦！事實上您這個甩鍋的動作，我不管這個鍋子是誰叫你甩的，但實際上我是替在場所有國科會的同仁抱不平，同時也對臺灣的AI科研抱不平啦！我們研議了一年，結果我們整個AI的科研、整個AI基本法所謂的根本大法，包含了非常多的元素，就這樣丟給數發部，這是你們交給全民的答案嗎？今天我們算了一下，恰巧是主委您上任第300天，不曉得主委是不是因為業務繁忙，忘記了國科會的業務職掌，本席幫您複習一下。根據國家科學及技術委員會技術委員會組織法第二條第四款以及第五款，第四款是「重大科技研發計畫及支援學術研究之推動」；第五款是「產業前瞻技術研發與學研新創政策之綜合規劃、協調及推動」，這都是你們的職掌業務，這難道不屬於AI嗎？這跟AI科技研發沒有關係嗎？結果，為什麼國科會主委就任由我們的行政院，您剛剛這麼尷尬的微笑說「共同討論」，還不願意講是誰先提出來的，這個科學嗎？自我閹割，對行政院將人工智慧整塊切割給數發部主管，你一語不發。","其實本席曾經期待主委，您兼任科技政委，這筆1,965億的科技預算，我們剛剛看到了，還有包含3,000億這個所謂的AI晶片的計畫，然後呢？我們今年呢？事實上，當時我們是希望您可以做，美國有AI沙皇，我們也希望有AI沙皇，早一點來推動這些東西，結果我們發現，該不會有人想把您變成拿錢不辦事的AI太上皇？其實我們的這個資料也已經表示了，國科會投入AI科研的預算52億，今年您在總質詢也提到整個部會今年度增加的預算高達一百二十幾到130億，相較之下，數發部的本部和資安署都跟我們表示，今年度沒有編列AI研發預算，是「沒有」！只有產業署勉強編列5.9億，是跟數位產業研發相關的，以預算規模來看，國科會就是它們的10倍啊！老實說，很可能還要100倍才夠。接下來我們AI科研的責任卻完全甩鍋給數發部，我剛剛已經提過了，沒有人才、沒有研發，你怎麼去提應用？你是要應用美國人的東西、要應用哪些其他外部人的東西嗎？事實上我們希望可以提醒您，我們現在要做的真的是科研，你們不要把這種劃紅線的機制，說這是AI最重要的點。是不是可以請主委回復一下？您是否同意，既然你說AI基本法都交給他們做了，那52億的AI科研預算，要不要就交給數發部來主導？"],["吳主任委員誠文：報告委員，剛剛委員提到說國科會要負責AI的科研，這個才是重點，我非常同意這一點，就是因為這個樣子，接下來AI基本法我們請數發部來做主政的單位。我要全心來發展AI的研究，那這個AI的研究，除了我們編列在各個學術處都有這個相關的預算之外，我們也會委請中央研究院要來加強這一塊。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以你就是不同意嘛，是不是AI科研還是要在國科會？"],["吳主任委員誠文：在國科會，AI科研在國科會，但是AI基本法的主政將來牽涉到應用，所以一定是很多產業的問題，人民的這個……"],["葛委員如鈞：報告主委，我們認為這樣子有錢無責，在研發的部分，老實說這真的會變成AI太上皇，這也許不是您願意的啦！但是希望要跟行政院去溝通，本席要在此宣告AI的科研需要人才、需要產業才有辦法應用，最後我們當然同步要來討論安全，但是現在臺灣的AI研發完全就還在要加速的時候，結果您來我們的辦公室討論，您提到這樣子一個規劃的作法，是要讓數發部來劃紅線，要對人權保障。我們不反對這件事情，但是我們真正要發展的根本都還沒做，我們現在已經被人家批評這個軟硬不平衡，都只有硬體產業。我們的AI為什麼沒有產業？就是沒有足夠的人才、沒有足夠的科研，結果我們現在來做這樣的轉換。老實說，我真的認為對臺灣AI的發展是非常、非常危險，我就在此提出，這個我們之後還有很長的時間討論。","今天時間有限，我想我還要再來談沒有電力就沒有AI，所以今天還有一個議題要請教您，2025年1月8號舉辦行政院2025科技顧問會議，當中有強調減碳政策要考量總能源的需求，及預期2050年少5,000億度的電力需求，務實探討、提前布局，建議碳費收益用於支持加速減碳的低碳能源研究發展。請問主委，會議結論提及的碳費收益用於支持低碳能源的研究發展，其中低碳能源包不包含核能？核能的相關研究能否適用於碳費收益的應用？"],["吳主任委員誠文：第一，有關碳費收益的應用在行政院科技顧問會議的結論，其實我們的環境部也有參與，所以他們也有接到相關的訊息，會研議；第二，所有的潔淨能源將來都會列為我們在發展的過程當中……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以適用？適用核能？"],["吳主任委員誠文：都是可以討論的選項，但是它的條件就是要安全，以及得到社會、人民的共識。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，報告主委，事實上核能就是低碳能源，接下來核能預計拿多少比例的經費，跟風電、光電拿到的資源希望不要大小眼，全世界都在研究核電。根據氣候變遷因應法規定，碳費的收入要納入溫室氣體管理基金的應用，我們也幫您看過了，這個基金對於用途的相關規定不外乎執行各種碳排減量的工作，而碳排減量有很多種，AI有可能可以來幫助這件事情，包含資料數位化、能源管理優化、幫助產業優化能源的使用效率、幫助再生能源的發電效率提升等等。由於AI對電力真的有非常大量的需求，所以我們一邊可能要節省，一邊可能還是要做新的能源的探索，不管是既有核能的延役、重啟或者新核能的導入，我們希望卓院長自詡為AI創新內閣，主委，您的部會在科技整體來講扮演的角色非常非常的重要，也應該要非常非常的科學，所以我最後對您有兩點期許。","第一點，我希望國科會身為低碳能源──核能相關研究與應用的一個非常重要的主管機關，千萬不要受到非核家園神主牌的干擾，我們有看到，美國上個月也有新技術的突破，2月26號有技術突破，可以用核廢料來發電，這樣子的一些新的作法，包含更安全的核能，我相信國科會應該要讓更多的研究人員來投入。第二點，AI的耗能加上碳排的能源結構也有可能會造成一些影響，所以希望國科會去思考AI對減碳這件事情能做到什麼樣的幫助，我們能不能用更低耗能的方式來研發能源？我們從這個角度去看，今年度開徵的碳費也許就是一個非常適合的財源，希望主委能夠代替我們全國的科研同仁好好的溝通，如果有需要，本席也可以從旁協助，可以嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：謝謝委員。"],["葛委員如鈞：好。"],["主席：謝謝葛如鈞委員。"],["主席（葛委員如鈞）：我們接著繼續進行質詢，有請陳秀寳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":110,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","羅廷瑋","柯志恩","林沛祥","陳秀寳","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","劉書彬","葉元之","郭昱晴","范雲","陳培瑜","萬美玲","翁曉玲","鍾佳濱","賴士葆","林倩綺"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家科學及技術委員會主任委員吳誠文列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00002"}}},{"id":"159206","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159206","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbde1cf2ede5dd0a97871e4a585984f629ce1d26ba49c773cd7fa58c9f4dc8bf975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:50:35 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謝謝主席 麻煩委員長何秀文委員長 謝謝王委員長安委員長 我在開始詢答之前我追蹤一下一個事情的進度是我跟沈伯陽委員我們曾經去馬來西亞的台灣學校回來之後我在這邊也質詢過我們同樣在海外我們台灣人的子弟在那邊讀台灣學校用台灣的課綱 用台灣的教材"},{"start":29.987,"end":58.004,"text":"結果到中國的學校他們每個學期好像補助到三萬多每學年補助三萬多塊的樣子結果我們在東南亞其他的地方的類似這樣的台灣學校每個學年才一萬塊錢這個其實是非常不公平我們要強調這些是我們在海外的台灣子弟他們讀完中學之後會回台灣讀大學像馬來西亞的台灣學校辦得不錯甚至於讓馬來西亞國同意有八個國家的橋外生"},{"start":59.305,"end":85.877,"text":"馬來西亞的僑外生可以去讀我們在馬來西亞的台灣學校有點像在台灣的美國學校他們已經變國際學校的規模就很多人想要去讀那一間可是我們的台灣也許是台商的子女或者是我們當地台僑的子弟那他的學費補助是一萬塊目前好像是一學年五千是教育部補助的對教育部補助那我上次質詢說我說這個不對何況在東南亞好像有七家台灣學校"},{"start":86.557,"end":101.142,"text":"目前四家台灣學校他們用的是完全我們台灣的課堂完全用台灣的進度他的課本也不會被審查在中華人民共和國的台灣學校課本會用那個黑筆把中華民國塗掉把東西塗掉總統塗掉把一些有關國家代表性的東西都塗掉"},{"start":105.083,"end":133.138,"text":"他還會審查你的課本課綱也沒有完全的執行這兩個差異就那一邊一學年三萬多塊錢的補助這邊一學年一萬塊錢的補助這個不僅是不公平而且有點像在懲罰照規矩來的而且這些人回到台灣讀書他們的相關的人會來這邊消費等等所以這個事情我從上次去馬來西亞看了我們的喬教中心我們的台灣學校回來質詢之後有沒有新的進度"},{"start":134.105,"end":150.969,"text":"跟委員報告我們當然有把這個事情跟教育部說明那因為預算的這個編列上是在教育部的這個全署範圍內那事實上我們持續的對包括越南胡志明市那個對泰國的泰國沒有馬來西亞的吉隆坡"},{"start":156.21,"end":176.113,"text":"還有在雅加達 印尼雅加達跟釋水總共這四個這個台灣學校呢確實是當時設立的時候是一半教育部一半僑委會來出資協助他們設立那我們也提供各種的目前教育部的態度是怎麼樣我沒有要求把中國那塊降下來嘛"},{"start":177.094,"end":193.875,"text":"我們也無法要求中國的不是 那一塊是我們補助的喔是我們補助我們的台籍學生的學雜費補助嘛我現在只是說我們應該是一視同仁在東南亞的台灣孩子跟在中國的台灣孩子我們應該要公平嘛現在差了三倍啊"},{"start":195.877,"end":212.298,"text":"我的了解是這一塊可能還是要看教育部自己的執行預算但是我們有跟他們表達過可能要強烈表達啦那這就是所謂的跨部會的情形那我也會尋管到看透過鄭麗君副院長或相關情形我就真的要解決"},{"start":212.919,"end":230.269,"text":"這不解決我認為對在海外努力幫台灣辦學的人我覺得不公允好第二個我要請教最近有個題目說台灣會變學工之島這個題目很嚇人因為學工之島其實我們就違反聯合國很多東西那我們這邊也關注過"},{"start":231.55,"end":249.118,"text":"我們鼓勵外國的人來台灣讀書僑生來台灣讀書當然不能變成打黑工甚至於更慘變奴工護照被扣著之前發生過嘛那樣的奴工化其實是違反國際的所有的普世法則聯合國的公約所以"},{"start":249.838,"end":277.274,"text":"我們看我們現在3加4的方案3年就高中嘛4年就大學嘛我們對於就讀高中這個3有沒有年齡的限制還是說他只有國中學歷他就讀3還是說我要限18歲以下委員我們現在是這樣子我們3加4主要的生源國來自於東協國家主要7個那這7個國家呢各自的法規有些不一樣像越南"},{"start":278.715,"end":297.228,"text":"泰國馬來西亞柬埔寨他們就沒有規範到那麼嚴格說未成年者不得出國可是在菲律賓跟印尼他們對於未成年者要出國就設定不是說不能出國就設定比較嚴的門檻你很誤會我的意思我們這一塊我知道他在讀我們的高中"},{"start":300.951,"end":315.956,"text":"會不會有成年人基本上我們現在是這樣子年齡就是三加四的部分是從16歲到22歲都可以都可以所以他可以讀高中也可以讀大學對所以我們可能會發現一個21歲的在台灣讀高中"},{"start":317.537,"end":337.465,"text":"是的沒有錯沒有錯確實你不覺得這怪怪的嗎我們有算過這個lifestyle就是說因為他們的這個學制跟他們學習的內容可能跟我們台灣相對有一些落後的部分我們這個預算是花我們國家的是所以你要站在說我們鼓勵海外的這些僑生來台灣讀書我當然樂見而且有補助"},{"start":340.526,"end":347.088,"text":"委員我們其實已經限縮了之前的門檻更寬所以我們現在把它縮到說16歲到22歲縮小就代表問題不用檢討所以我剛才講的像你們提供的資料3加4畢業率不到4成"},{"start":357.012,"end":361.576,"text":"跟委員報告那時候前幾年我們確實在103年、104年、105年那幾年當中開始試辦這個計畫的時候沒有任何配套措施然後當時是試辦計畫所以人數也很少那所以流失率也就很高那那一段時間從他們不讀了就回他們母國對沒錯他只要一不讀書"},{"start":380.754,"end":408.453,"text":"他馬上就會取消他的簽證他就馬上離開畢業率不到四成畢業率不到四成不是馬上聯想到他就不讀了有可能我高中三年當作六年來讀啊不可能不可能原幣不行嗎不行不行在我們的計畫不行不行不行在我們的計畫裡面在我們這個三加四不行我們這個跟我們這個跟一般的這個一般生的狀況是不一樣所以他必須按照這個進度來他是學衛生嗎"},{"start":408.933,"end":424.259,"text":"他是他有學位但是他必須按照我們三加四的時間他甚至連休學都不可以喔他一休學就馬上休學就回國了請假也不行我說三年制他必須三年念完他必須三年不能延避一年不可以"},{"start":424.759,"end":429.944,"text":"大學的時候可以,但是他延畢的時候他不能實習了延畢的話你們補助也沒有了嗎?沒有了,而且跟委員報告,其實我們3加4的補助只有補助在前三年後面都沒有補助了,所以大學端的部分,那個是他自己自付學費的所以他如果要拖得久一點,我也沒意見那現在畢業率不到四成其實很低"},{"start":448.763,"end":455.937,"text":"然後我就是跟委員講其實雖然那時候不到四成可是真的有讀完七年的人他留台率很高"},{"start":456.883,"end":479.681,"text":"四成就是這有十個來畢業的有三個三個但是這三個都留下來了兩個半或三個會留下來對都留下來了在研究這塊在研究那六個嘛是是對不對那六個就是你不講三個通通留那是另外一件事有人就是因為我研究了前面為什麼他要留師所以我盡量去改善畢業率不到四成這個很低很低確實很低是我們台灣在我們的教育裡面不是這樣的數據嗯"},{"start":481.479,"end":500.678,"text":"你們找到原因了沒有然後你們期待今年明年的畢業率到多少有早期就是因為整個配套措施都沒有也沒有在考察這個學生的學習力實習的狀況那語言的狀況也都沒有跟進所以我們這三年來就開始持續的強化包括學校的住宿"},{"start":501.278,"end":524.302,"text":"教學 語言 實習的狀況我們都一項一項開始把它鎖緊那希望說他們可以一年級讀到三年級所以未來的畢業率會是我們審核學校他能不能繼續增加學生人數的一個評鑑今年的畢業季五月嘛對我們的畢業率會拉起來嗎我相信會會到多少 你們的目標值是多少"},{"start":525.262,"end":553.28,"text":"過去因為只有三到四成因為以前很低啊 基期很低基期很低 基期很低你很容易進步啦所以再說 以往畢業率不到四成你們估計今年的畢業率會多少今年要畢業的學生也只有幾百個而已大概是六七百個因為算比例所以應該入學如果七百個 畢業六百多個 那很高現在應該會有五成左右你認為會到五成嗎 是其實還是偏低 這還是要精進對 但是我相信未來三年以後都會往上繼續走我最後提醒這個事情就是說"},{"start":553.98,"end":571.473,"text":"如果從東南亞來的所謂的僑生來我們這邊讀三加四畢業率不到四成第一個會形成我們的投資浪費我每花十塊錢有六塊呢根本就沒有了每花十塊錢人民的納稅人的錢有六塊就浪費了這個我們不容許"},{"start":573.213,"end":594.701,"text":"這個投報率太低第二個會有變相移工的風險你們管理上會形成大困難當然我們一直在要說委員當時大概不太會有是因為當時的規模很小都是數百人而已都還不到上千數字的敏感性高一個他占比較高嘛你現在量大了嘛花了40來億嘛我們還是要monitor我們還是要監控這個數據現在我們就很重視這個就是說"},{"start":596.361,"end":621.92,"text":"有移工的風險 有投資的浪費我們就不能長期容忍我們的公共投資我們當然鼓勵 台灣是一個開放國家海外僑生來台灣讀書 百分之一百歡迎但歷業率在四成以下 五成左右那這樣子形成我們投資的浪費可能在做法上要更嚴謹去思考那這個數據我會持續觀察好 謝謝委員我們一定會讓稅金做最好的運用 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":211,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時50分）謝謝主席，麻煩委員長。"],["主席：有請委員長，謝謝。"],["徐委員長佳青：王委員早安。"],["王委員定宇：委員長，在開始詢答之前，我追蹤一下一件事情的進度。我跟沈伯洋委員曾經去過馬來西亞的臺灣學校，回來之後我在這邊也質詢過。同樣在海外，我們臺灣人的子弟在那邊讀臺灣學校，用臺灣的課綱、用臺灣的教材，結果到中國辦的臺灣學校，他們每個學年好像補助到三萬多塊的樣子，而在東南亞其他地方類似這樣的臺灣學校每學年才補助一萬塊錢，這其實是非常不公平。我們要強調，這些是我們在海外的臺灣子弟，他們讀完中學之後會回臺灣讀大學，像馬來西亞的臺灣學校辦得不錯，甚至於讓馬來西亞同意有8個國家的馬來西亞僑外生可以去讀在馬來西亞的臺灣學校，有點像在臺灣的美國學校……"],["徐委員長佳青：他們已經變國際學校的規模。"],["王委員定宇：很多人想要去讀那一間。可是我們臺灣的部分，也許是臺商的子女或是我們當地臺僑的子弟，他的學費補助是一萬塊嘛，目前好像是一學年5,000。"],["徐委員長佳青：是，是教育部補助的。"],["王委員定宇：對，教育部補助。我上次質詢時，我說這個不對，何況在東南亞好像有7家臺灣學校？"],["徐委員長佳青：目前有4家。"],["王委員定宇：4家臺灣學校，他們用的完全是我們臺灣的課綱。"],["徐委員長佳青：對，完全用臺灣的進度。"],["王委員定宇：他的課本也不會被審查。"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["王委員定宇：在中華人民共和國的臺灣學校，課本會用黑筆把「中華民國」塗掉、把一些東西塗掉、把「總統」塗掉，把一些有關國家代表性的東西都塗掉，他還會審查你的課本，課綱也沒有完全執行，這兩個是有所差異的，結果那邊一學年有三萬多塊錢的補助，這邊一學年是一萬塊錢的補助，這不僅是不公平，而且有點像在懲罰照規矩來的，並且這些人回到臺灣讀書時，他們相關的人會來這邊消費等等。這個事情從我上次去馬來西亞看了我們的僑教中心、我們的臺灣學校，進而回來質詢之後，有沒有新的進度？"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，我們當然有把這個事情跟教育部說明，因為預算編列是在教育部的權屬範圍內。事實上，我們持續對包括越南胡志明市、馬來西亞吉隆坡，還有在印尼雅加達跟泗水，總共這4個臺灣學校，當時設立的時候是一半教育部、一半僑委會來出資協助他們設立，我們也提供各種的……"],["王委員定宇：目前教育部的態度是怎麼樣？我沒有要求要把中國那一塊降下來嘛，我們……"],["徐委員長佳青：我們也無法要求中國。"],["王委員定宇：不是，那一塊是我們補助的，我們補助我們臺籍學生的學雜費，我現在指的是，我們應該是一視同仁，在東南亞的臺灣孩子跟在中國的臺灣孩子應該要公平，但現在差了3倍啊。"],["徐委員長佳青：就我的了解，這一塊可能還是要看教育部自己的執行預算，但是我們有跟他們表達過。"],["王委員定宇：第一個，可能要強烈表達啦。"],["徐委員長佳青：好。"],["王委員定宇：因為這就是所謂跨部會的情形。我也會循管道，透過鄭麗君副院長或是相關情形。這個要解決，這個不解決，我認為對於在海外努力幫臺灣辦學的人並不公允。","第二個，我要請教，最近有個題目說臺灣會變學工之島，這個題目很嚇人，因為學工之島，其實我們就違反了聯合國很多東西。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：我們也關注過，我們鼓勵外國的人來臺灣讀書、僑生來臺灣讀書，但他不能變打黑工，甚至更慘，變奴工，護照被扣著，之前發生過嘛，那樣的奴工化其實違反國際所有的普世法則、聯合國的公約。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：我們看到現在的「3+4」方案，3年就是高中，4年就是大學，對於就讀高中的這個「3」有沒有年齡限制？還是說他只有國中學歷就讀「3」？還是說限18歲以下？"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，現在是這樣，我們3+4的生源國主要來自於7個東協國家，這7個國家各自的法規有些不一樣，像越南、泰國、馬來西亞、柬埔寨，他們就沒有規範到那麼嚴格說未成年者不得出國，可是在菲律賓跟印尼，他們對於未成年者要出國，也不是不能出國，就是設定比較嚴的門檻……"],["王委員定宇：你可能誤會我的意思，我問的是我們這一塊……"],["徐委員長佳青：我知道。"],["王委員定宇：來讀我們高中的會不會有成年人？"],["徐委員長佳青：基本上，我們現在是這樣子，3+4的年齡部分是從16歲到22歲……"],["王委員定宇：都可以？"],["徐委員長佳青：都可以。"],["王委員定宇：所以他可以讀高中，也可以讀大學？"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["王委員定宇：所以我們可能會發現一個21歲的在臺灣讀高中？"],["徐委員長佳青：是的，沒有錯，確實……"],["王委員定宇：你不覺得這個怪怪的嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：我們有算過這個life style，因為他們的學制跟他們學習的內容，可能跟我們臺灣相對來說有一些落後的部分……"],["王委員定宇：這個預算是花我們國家的……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以你要站在我們是鼓勵海外僑生來臺灣讀書的角度，我當然樂見，而且也有補助……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，我們其實已經限縮了，之前的門檻更寬，所以……"],["王委員定宇：對，之前更嚴重，但現在……"],["徐委員長佳青：所以我們現在把年齡縮到16歲到22歲。"],["王委員定宇：縮小不代表問題不用檢討……"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：所以我剛才講的，像你們提供的資料，3+4的畢業率不到四成……"],["徐委員長佳青：跟委員報告，我們確實在103年、104年、105年那幾年當中，開始試辦這個計畫的時候沒有任何配套措施，當時是試辦計畫，人數也很少，所以流失率也很高。那一段時間從去……"],["王委員定宇：他們不讀了就回他們的母國這樣嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：對，沒錯，他只要一不讀書，馬上他的簽證就會被取消，他就馬上得離開……"],["王委員定宇：好。所以畢業率不到四成……"],["徐委員長佳青：畢業率不到四成，但是留……"],["王委員定宇：不是馬上聯想到他就不讀了，但有可能他高中3年當作6年來讀啊！"],["徐委員長佳青：不可能。"],["王委員定宇：延畢不行嗎？大學不能……"],["徐委員長佳青：不行，在我們的計畫不行……"],["王委員定宇：不行嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：不行、不行，在我們的計畫裡面，在我們這個3+4……"],["王委員定宇：你要不要說明一下，像學分沒有修滿，多……"],["徐委員長佳青：不行，我們這個制度跟一般生的狀況是不一樣的，所以他必須按照進度來。"],["王委員定宇：他是學位生嘛。"],["徐委員長佳青：他有學位，但是他必須按照我們3+4的時間，他甚至連休學都不可以喔，他一休學就馬上……"],["王委員定宇：所以我再問清楚，休學就沒有了……"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["王委員定宇：休學就回國了……"],["徐委員長佳青：請假也不行。"],["王委員定宇：我是說3年制的高中……"],["徐委員長佳青：他必須3年念完。"],["王委員定宇：他必須3年念完，不能延畢1年？"],["徐委員長佳青：對，不可以。大學的時候可以，但是他延畢的時候，他不能實習了。"],["王委員定宇：延畢的話，你們的補助也沒有了嘛？"],["徐委員長佳青：沒有了、沒有了，而且跟委員報告，其實我們3+4的補助只有補助前3年，後面都沒有補助了，所以大學端的部分，那是他自付學費的，他如果要讀比較久就讓他讀，我們也沒意見，因為他自己要出錢。"],["王委員定宇：現在畢業率不到四成，其實很低，現在你估計明年……"],["徐委員長佳青：我就是跟委員講，其實雖然那時候不到四成，可是真的有讀完7年的人，他留臺率很高，四成的……"],["王委員定宇：就是說有10個來，畢業的有3個……"],["徐委員長佳青：對，3個，但是這3個都留下來了。"],["王委員定宇：但是這3個有兩個半或3個會留下來……"],["徐委員長佳青：對，都留下來了。"],["王委員定宇：我現在不是研究這一塊，我在研究那6個嘛，對不對？"],["徐委員長佳青：是，那6個就是……"],["王委員定宇：你跟我講這3個通通留，那是另外一件事情。"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，就是因為我研究了前面為什麼他流失，所以我儘量去改善。"],["王委員定宇：好，我繼續問。畢業率不到四成，這個很低，確實很低……"],["徐委員長佳青：很低，是。"],["王委員定宇：在我們臺灣的教育裡面，不是這樣的數據，你們找到原因了沒有？你們期待今年、明年的畢業率到多少？"],["徐委員長佳青：有。早期就是因為整個配套措施都沒有，也沒有在考察學生的學習力、實習的狀況，語言的狀況也都沒有跟進，所以我們這三年來就開始持續的強化，包括學校的住宿、教學、語言、實習的狀況，我們都一項一項開始把它鎖緊，希望他們可以從一年級讀到三年級，所以未來的畢業率，會是我們審核學校能不能繼續增加學生人數的評鑑項目之一。"],["王委員定宇：你估計今年5月的畢業季，我們的畢業率會拉起來嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：我相信會。"],["王委員定宇：會到多少，你們的目標值是多少？"],["徐委員長佳青：過去因為只有三到四成……"],["王委員定宇：因為以前基期很低……"],["徐委員長佳青：基期很低、基期很低。"],["王委員定宇：你很容易進步啦！"],["徐委員長佳青：對。"],["王委員定宇：以往畢業率不到四成，你們估計今年的畢業率會到多少？"],["徐委員長佳青：今年要畢業的學生也只有幾百個而已，大概是六、七百個……"],["王委員定宇：算比例啦！"],["徐委員長佳青：因為也算比例，所以應當……"],["王委員定宇：入學如果有700個，畢業六百多個，那是很高喔。"],["徐委員長佳青：現在應該會有五成左右。"],["王委員定宇：你認為會到五成嗎？"],["徐委員長佳青：是。"],["王委員定宇：其實還是偏低，這個還是要精進。"],["徐委員長佳青：對，但是我相信未來三年以後都會往上繼續走。"],["王委員定宇：我最後要提醒的這件事情就是，如果從東南亞來的所謂僑生來我們這邊讀3+4，畢業率不到四成，第一個，會形成我們的投資浪費，每花10塊錢有6塊根本就沒有了。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。對。"],["王委員定宇：每花10塊納稅人的錢有6塊就浪費了，這個我們不容許，這個投報率太低。第二個，會有變相移工的風險，你們管理上會形成很大的困難，當然我們一直在要求……"],["徐委員長佳青：委員，當時大概不太會有是因為當時的規模很小，都是數百人而已，都還不到上千。"],["王委員定宇：規模小，數字的敏感性高，也就是它占比就高嘛，你現在量大了嘛，花了四十來億嘛，但我們還是要monitor，我們還是要監控這個數據……"],["徐委員長佳青：對，現在我們就很重視這個……"],["王委員定宇：就是說有移工的風險，有投資的浪費，我們就不能長期容忍我們的公共投資有此狀況。我們當然鼓勵，臺灣是一個開放國家，海外僑生來臺灣讀書百分之一百歡迎，但畢業率在四成以下、五成左右，這樣形成我們投資的浪費，可能在作法上要更嚴謹去思考，這個數據我會持續觀察。謝謝。"],["徐委員長佳青：是。好。謝謝委員，我們一定會讓稅金做最好的運用。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。現在請黃仁委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-3","speakers":["沈伯洋","徐巧芯","羅美玲","陳俊宇","王定宇","黃仁","林楚茵","陳冠廷","沈伯洋","林憶君","張啓楷","黃國昌","馬文君"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請僑務委員會委員長徐佳青報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00013"}}},{"id":"159205","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159205","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fb75ff5c2edb6486d6ad7e46c29134393c89159ed41e5531243b8468cd18c255a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:28:43 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像工廠的排放管控跟加油站我們的油氣的回收可是我也想問部長你所謂的敏感族群是不是"},{"start":96.266,"end":112.766,"text":"有區分大人跟小孩所以我想針對這一點來跟部長做討論部長我一直都認為我覺得一個問題為什麼學校跟固定的產生空屋工廠的距離"},{"start":113.486,"end":135.307,"text":"至今是沒有明確的規範那根據報導者調查全台有141所國小31所國中距離500公尺都有違規的工廠其中28間學校周遭甚至有2間以上的違規工廠那校園跟這樣子的污染源的距離規範我們看到的是什麼"},{"start":135.686,"end":161.636,"text":"去年我針對學校周邊的潛在危險設施提出規範要求加油站設置距離應納入幼兒園保護範圍可是去年11月教育部回函支持表示會跟經濟部研議修正法規可是至今也是沒有下文那兒少全法第47條也規定只要有害兒童身心健康的營業場所都必須距離"},{"start":162.496,"end":178.352,"text":"學校有200公尺以上那2024年呢環境部也預告修正我們的移動污染源違反空氣污染防治法裁罰準則的時候如果柴油車跟機車排放的污染物影響學校罰款加重1.5倍所以部長工廠"},{"start":182.964,"end":203.256,"text":"排放的污染不會遇到學校就轉彎喔我們固定場所已經事實上都還要200公尺那可是他會他所以這樣污染源他會隨著空氣風向轉向學校我們對於交通跟營業場所都有一些距離的管制可是卻對這些污染的工廠沒有辦法管這樣對嗎"},{"start":205.611,"end":231.266,"text":"這個是我們希望也可以改善的因為委員說的都是現在事實因為報導者這邊我有特別看他特別舉出了一些學校那當然啦有些的這個違規的工廠他是一直過去我們對這個認知沒有那麼的多那我們現在我會去面對這個問題那這個面對這個問題呢有幾種一個是如果新設的話一定要盡量有一些更好的一個規範那至於舊有既有的話我們就要加強監測"},{"start":232.227,"end":240.974,"text":"所以想問部長 現行的法規規範 空氣污染防治法的管住就已經是不是有不足的地方 你什麼時候要跟教育部討論"},{"start":243.064,"end":264.456,"text":"這個委員我們會來處理來進行好不好因為我把所有的相關的法規找出來也就看起來我們的空屋治理的法規非常的多可是沒有人負責而且政策很零碎執行也很破碎所以兒童的健康事實上是被忽略的各部門各管各的那涉及到兒童"},{"start":265.436,"end":286.319,"text":"跟空污的法規關係大概有12項其中前面環境部的前4項跟教育部的前3項總共7項事實上是有一些關聯性的可是環境部只針對我們的空氣品質惡化時規範學校應變措施簡單來講就是說發生事情的時候再來管理"},{"start":287.352,"end":302.825,"text":"那教育部呢在選校的時候的確會考量空窩可是沒有明確的標準這真的讓我們覺得很可笑因為孩子健康就掌握在尤其事實上選校子之後呢工廠怎麼設好像都沒有特別去規範"},{"start":303.666,"end":322.354,"text":"所以僅依環保署的法規去調整體育課就叫孩子你體育課不要出來就好了那衛福部的兒童機構的那個環境規劃更偏向於環境清潔跟事故預防未設標準所以我想問國監署你2023年我們的兒圈公約的15號意見書就已經出來了針對健康權"},{"start":328.237,"end":350.482,"text":"到2023年2013年出來15號一間2023年到26號一間書在提到氣候權的時候都也提到了所謂這樣的空污對他的所以我不知道我們的國健署在主管健康你對衛福部在訂兒少權法甚至修正的時候都沒有提嗎好 國健署委員我是不是請國健署來回答謝謝委員這部分我們後續可以再來做"},{"start":358.049,"end":383.639,"text":"因為兒權公約我們從2014年國內法化之後都到現在為什麼國健署在監管我們兒童健康的反而事實上是沒有回應好 國健署請回教育部要不要回應一下我還有教育部要回的所以以兒少權法為例我們的第七條就明確規定中央政府主管機關包括教育跟勞工跟經濟14個機關"},{"start":386.434,"end":395.325,"text":"可是環境部沒有列入那這也代表環境部對兒童的權益事實上是被忽略的所以想問部長你認為在兒少權益環境部的責任是什麼"},{"start":399.291,"end":420.471,"text":"我贊同委員這個對於一些例如敏感族群兒少的教育場所特別常出沒的那我們是現在有針對一些例如說幼教的場所有在進行但是委員你提到的這個的確是對可是我就覺得很納悶為什麼因為室內空氣品質管理法裡面它第六條有針對於各個"},{"start":422.045,"end":443.11,"text":"場域裡邊要逐步的去公布說哪些場域要被歸管那環境部先後公告了前面11項應該講第二項到11項可獨獨第一項目前針對於我們的所謂教學場所竟然只公告了大學醫院政府辦公室大眾運輸跟娛樂場所"},{"start":445.211,"end":461.026,"text":"那我們最重要最重要是越幼小的孩子更需要被保護反而事實上是獨立高級中等以下學校跟兒少教育跟活動場域這讓我覺得蠻特別2018年我們本黨的立委許智傑委員也有提"},{"start":461.807,"end":481.074,"text":"出來跟教育部要求可是當時事實上到現在都還沒有去做這樣的一個考量可是老人的福祉機構都早一批被公佈了為什麼我們的兒少機構那我覺得我們的教育部跟環境部有互踢皮球嗎所以何時納管所以環境部跟教育部給我一個時間"},{"start":483.172,"end":492.475,"text":"委員這個目前是幼兒園或托嬰中心是有啦委員說的高中跟國小這個我們會再來討論可不可以給個時間教育部要不要"},{"start":493.769,"end":520.379,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為之前在幼教階段的部分因為幼教的場所因為蠻多大概六千多所學校那每一所學校他如果要符合那個環境部的那個空評的規標我講的是給我一個時間好不好我們盡快啦就是跟環境部來一起推動因為那部分的標準是真的還蠻嚴格的那需要需要一段的時間來推動"},{"start":522.031,"end":549.953,"text":"好那環境部呢這個我們會來研議因為委員你說的就是說高中國中國小其實這個部分的確是缺的我們是針對幼兒園那些托嬰中心大學都管了可是反而事實上是高中以下的都沒在管可是世界衛生組織跟我們的聯合國兒童基金會都特別提醒說兒少是環境跟空氣污染影響最嚴重的族群"},{"start":551.636,"end":562.124,"text":"目前很多時候工廠設在學校旁邊我們到底對學生的健康保護到底在哪裡尤其他也提出來說今天孩子因為呼吸"},{"start":563.317,"end":591.895,"text":"速度比較快 活動量高所以他的呼吸系統的發育還沒有成熟的時候他對於空氣汙染對他的影響比成人還更嚴重反而你去保護我們已經滿18歲以上18歲以下的完全不去做歸管所以我想問部長說現行的我們的檢測標準真的能夠保護健康嗎那我想也要問你們說那你們認定到底這樣的標準事實上應該要比大人更嚴格呢還是跟大人一樣"},{"start":593.257,"end":609.066,"text":"從學理上應該是要更嚴格啦例如說大人的標準他小朋友應該更嚴格一點那他是更要被保護的族群你們至今第一個沒有沒有去歸管另外一個事實上是也沒有一些標準在那沒有標準的結果就是做什麼呢就是叫孩子呢"},{"start":609.451,"end":629.451,"text":"反正你關窗嘛 忍耐嘛 戴口罩那難道就成為唯一的選擇嗎因為現在檢測方式根本沒有辦法去真實反映學校周遭的周邊的污染現況所以也試問現在站在場上的各位能接受每天上班的時候聞到濾青或工廠排放的廢氣的臭味嗎"},{"start":631.012,"end":655.71,"text":"可是現在就是都是現實我們學童遇到的一些狀況很多學生呢學校的師生因為吸入異味出現我們的頭暈耳心甚至身體不適的狀況可是為什麼不知道你們檢測空氣品質卻顯示空氣品質正常這個有沒有檢舉的時間跟稽查的時間根本兜不上甚至有沒有人通風報信"},{"start":657.921,"end":684.205,"text":"我們怎麼會是品質這樣 如果孩子都已經聞到所以部長請說明一下目前學校周邊發生異味的時候 聞到不舒服檢測卻又正常 這種跟事實脫節的狀況原因你覺得是什麼第一個是檢測這樣不夠 因為學校它其實都是屬於這種微氣候所造成的影響第一個是要可能要增加一些檢測的設備 所以我們目前這個會加強 那委員提到的"},{"start":685.146,"end":711.526,"text":"針對這個弱勢的這個族群我們會第一個是到底弱勢的族群他的這個AQI的標準要設到多少這個我們現在會來研議做這個事情那委員關心的部分呢再容許再給我們一點時間我們跟教育部一起來討論對那就要問教育部你除了叫孩子忍耐關窗戴口罩那到底為什麼孩子要忍我們自己大人都聞不下去了那所以你有沒有其他的應對的方式"},{"start":712.802,"end":731.72,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是我們剛委員有列出我們相關的一些針對空瓶的一些因應規範其實我們有針對弱勢族群就是呃呃而且比較身體比較脆弱敏感的族群有做一些相關的一些應變還有演練而這份我們也是我們我們尊重我們我們尊重西亞系的一個一個規範來做相關的一些關懷和呃緊急的應變處理好"},{"start":736.264,"end":764.501,"text":"有請環境部在三個月內召開跨部會的會議針對學校跟兒童出沒的一個區域空屋標準應該召開專家學者會議而且要以孩子的標準不是用大人的標準能不能辦到好可以委員謝謝委員的建議再給我一點時間稍微我照樣站起來那最後我還是要問教育部因為空屋不是環境問題更是影響到學生受教權"},{"start":766.072,"end":786.83,"text":"那平不平等的狀況那我的選區 我應該講說我的認養區域是觀音區那他的樹林國小報道率僅剩下三成全校僅剩下112人其中三分之一是單親跟低收入戶的學生內這些弱勢家庭 你覺得他遇到空污的時候他們有選擇權嗎教育部"},{"start":790.838,"end":814.514,"text":"這個部分不理會來重申委員提的這幾個學校我們也會你剛才講敏感族群你要保護我覺得連弱勢為什麼因為當學校周遭長期受汙染家長呢當然不得不要讓孩子轉學或跨學區就讀那是有能力的有能力的家庭可是如果事實上是沒有能力的家庭因為他是弱勢那你對弱勢支持是什麼就是繼續讓他們在更遏制的環境當中"},{"start":817.591,"end":843.589,"text":"那他的健康 我常常說若是家庭經不起健康的問題他們沒有財力去處理他的健康所以教育部是不是能夠去檢討有什麼機制協助這些孩子這些家庭在目前沒辦法處理的時候能不能符合最佳利益 孩子最佳利益事實上是補貼交通費用讓他們離開這個環境嗎去其他學校就讀嗎"},{"start":844.677,"end":865.024,"text":"還是事實上因為他根本事實上是沒有辦法搬離這個地方所以請教一部先做一些評估一樣的跟我們的環境部在三個月內給我一個報告最後當然就是期待我們建立學校周邊的污染工廠的距離還有依據不同工廠樣態進行"},{"start":866.806,"end":883.923,"text":"我們的盤點整頓的一些規範然後第二個教育部應該針對空屋的風險高的學校裡面有具體的協助機制第三個三個月內將高中值以下納入到我們的室內空氣品質管理法的那個監測範圍第四針對兒少專屬"},{"start":886.598,"end":890.28,"text":"空污的標準呢 三個月內召集專家學者召開專家學者會議謝謝 趙偉謝謝委員很好的建議 謝謝我們會納入參考 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":271,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時28分）麻煩請部長還有監測資訊司的司長。"],["主席：好，請彭部長還有……"],["林委員月琴：還有教育部資訊及科技教育司的專門委員和國民健康署科長。"],["主席：好，都有聽到喔，監測司的司長，還有教育以及國健，謝謝。"],["彭部長啓明：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。"],["彭部長啓明：早。"],["林委員月琴：我肯定環境部在空污防制上的努力，可是部長在報告當中也提到，當空氣品質惡化時，主管機關應該要採取更應變的防制措施跟健康防護，依據我們的氣象、固定的污染源跟移動污染源等特性公告並執行防制措施，包括工廠、車輛的排放跟營建工地的管理，以及提醒敏感族群的防護，也強調要加強保護我們的敏感族群，針對不同污染物能夠採取不同的應變措施，像是工廠的排放管控跟加油站的油氣回收。可是我想問部長，你所謂的敏感族群是不是有區分大人跟小孩？我想針對這一點來跟部長討論。","部長，我一直都認為，也覺得有一個問題，為什麼學校跟固定產生空污的工廠距離至今沒有明確的規範？根據「報導者」的調查，全臺有141所國小、31所國中距離500公尺都有違規的工廠，其中28間學校周遭甚至有兩間以上的違規工廠，校園跟污染源的距離規範，我們看到的是什麼？去年我針對學校周邊的潛在危險設施提出了規範，要求加油站設置距離應納入幼兒園保護範圍，可是去年11月教育部回函表示支持，會跟經濟部研議修正法規，可是至今也是沒有下文。兒少權法第四十七條也規定，只要有害兒童身心健康的營業場所都必須距離學校200公尺以上。2024年，環境部也預告修正移動污染源違反空氣污染防制法裁罰準則時，如果柴油車跟機車排放的污染物影響學校，罰鍰加重1.5倍。所以部長，工廠排放的污染不會遇到學校就轉彎，事實上固定場所都還要200公尺，這樣的污染源會隨著空氣、風向轉向學校，對於交通跟營業場所都有一些距離的管制，可是卻對這些污染的工廠沒有辦法管，這樣對嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：這也是我們希望可以改善的，委員說的都是現在的事實，我看「報導者」這邊有特別舉出了一些學校，當然有些違規工廠是一直……過去我們對這個的認知沒有那麼多，我們現在會去面對這個問題，面對這個問題的方式有幾種，第一個，如果是新設的話，一定要儘量有一些更好的規範，至於舊有、既有的就要加強監測，還有它的減量。"],["林委員月琴：所以想問部長，關於現行的法規規範，空氣污染防制法管制是不是已經有不足的地方，你什麼時候要跟教育部討論？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我們會來進行處理，好不好？"],["林委員月琴：因為我把相關法規找出來後發現，有關空污治理的法規非常多，可是沒有人負責，而且政策很零碎，執行也很破碎，所以兒童的健康問題事實上是被忽略的，各部門各管各的。涉及到兒童跟空污有關的法規大概有十二項，其中環境部的前四項跟教育部的前三項總共七項有一些關聯性，可是環境部只在空氣品質惡化時規範學校的應變措施，簡單來講，就是發生事情時再來管理。至於教育部在選校時的確會考量空污，可是沒有明確標準，這真的讓我們覺得很可笑，畢竟孩子健康就掌握在此。事實上，校址選出之後，對於工廠怎麼設好像都沒有特別規範，學校僅能依環保署的法規調整體育課，叫孩子體育課不要出來就好了。衛福部對兒童機構的環境規劃，更偏向環境的清潔與事故預防，並未設置空污標準。我想請問國健署，2013年兒權公約針對健康權的十五號意見書就已經出來了，到2023年的二十六號意見書在提到氣候權時也提到空污對……國健署主管健康，但衛福部在訂兒少權法、甚至修正的時候都沒有提這些嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，我是不是請國健署來回答？"],["歐科長良榮：委員，這部分我們後續可以再來做討論……"],["林委員月琴：從2014年將兒權公約國內法化之後都到現在，為什麼國健署是監管兒童健康的，事實上反而沒有回應？好，國健署請回。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，要不要請教育部回應一下？"],["林委員月琴：等會我還有教育部要回的。以兒少權法為例，第七條明確規定中央政府主管機關，包括教育、勞工跟經濟等十四個機關在內，但環境部沒有列入，代表環境部對兒童權益的責任被忽略。所以我想請問部長，你認為環境部對兒少權益的責任是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：我贊同委員所提，對於一些敏感族群，特別是兒少常出沒的教育場所，我們現在有針對這些幼教場所在進行，委員你提到的的確滿值得我們考慮。"],["林委員月琴：對，我覺得很納悶，為什麼？室內空氣品質管理法第六條規定，環境部應逐步公布哪些場域要規管，所以環境部先後公告了第二項到第十一項的場域，唯獨第一項教學場所中，竟只公告大學、醫院、政府辦公室、大眾運輸跟娛樂場所，獨漏高級中等以下學校跟兒少教育及活動場域，其實幼小的孩子才更需要被保護，這是最重要、最重要的，讓我覺得滿特別的。2018年本黨許智傑委員也有提出來並向教育部要求，但到現在都沒有做這樣的考量。老人福利機構已經早一批公布，為什麼兒少機構還沒有？教育部跟環境部在踢皮球嗎？何時納管？請環境部跟教育部給我一個時間。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，目前幼兒園或托嬰中心有，至於委員說的高中跟國小這部分，我們會再討論。"],["林委員月琴：可不可以給個時間？"],["彭部長啓明：教育部要不要跟委員報告一下？"],["廖專門委員雙慶：跟委員報告一下，在幼教階段部分，因為幼教場所滿多的，大概有六千多所學校，若每一所學校都要符合環境部空品標章……"],["林委員月琴：我講的是給我一個時間，好不好？"],["廖專門委員雙慶：我們儘快啦……"],["林委員月琴：儘快大概是什麼時候？"],["廖專門委員雙慶：要跟環境部一起推動，因為那部分的標準真的還滿嚴格的，所以需要一段時間來推動。"],["林委員月琴：環境部呢？"],["彭部長啓明：我們會來研議，如委員所提，高中、國中和國小的部分的確是缺的，至於幼兒園、托嬰中心都有。"],["林委員月琴：大學都管了，反而高中職以下的都沒管。世界衛生組織與聯合國兒童基金會都特別提醒，兒少是受環境跟空氣污染影響最嚴重的族群。很多時候工廠就設在學校旁邊，所以我們對學生的健康保護到底在哪裡？尤其孩子的呼吸速度比較快，活動量高，但孩子的呼吸系統發育還沒有成熟，因此空氣污染對他的影響比成人更嚴重！結果你反而去保護已經滿18歲以上的，18歲以下的完全不做規管？所以我想請問部長，現行我們的檢測標準真的能夠保護健康嗎？我同時也想請問你們，你們認定的標準是不是應該比大人更嚴格，還是跟大人一樣？"],["彭部長啓明：從學理上來講應該是要更嚴格，例如小朋友的標準應該比大人的標準更嚴格一點。"],["林委員月琴：是，所以他是更要被保護的族群，但你們至今除了沒有規管以外，事實上也沒有標準存在！沒有標準的結果就是叫孩子關窗、忍耐、戴口罩，這難道就成為唯一的選擇嗎？畢竟現在的檢測方式，根本沒有辦法真實反映學校周遭的污染現況！所以我要試問站在場上的各位，能接受每天上班的時候聞到瀝青或工廠排放的廢氣臭味嗎？這就是我們學童每天遇到的狀況與現實，很多學校的師生因為吸入異味而出現頭暈、噁心，甚至身體不適的狀況，但你們所檢測的空氣品質卻顯示空氣品質正常？到底為什麼？不知道！而且檢舉的時間跟稽查的時間根本兜不上，是不是有人通風報信？品質怎麼會是這樣？如果孩子都已經聞到的話！所以請部長說明一下目前學校周邊發生異味，聞到不舒服，卻又檢測正常，這種跟事實脫節的狀況，你覺得原因是什麼？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個是檢測站不夠，因為學校其實是屬於微氣候所造成的影響……"],["林委員月琴：部長，你們要怎麼解決？"],["彭部長啓明：首先要增加一些檢測設備，所以這個會加強。至於委員提到針對弱勢族群部分，到底弱勢族群的AQI標準要設到多少？這點我們會來研議。其次，對委員所關心的部分，請容許再給我們一點時間，我們會跟教育部一起來討論。"],["林委員月琴：所以就要問教育部，要孩子忍耐、關窗、戴口罩，到底為什麼孩子要忍？連我們大人都聞不下去了！因此，你們有沒有其他的應對方式？"],["廖專門委員雙慶：跟委員報告，剛剛委員有列出我們針對空品的因應規範，其實我們有針對弱勢族群，即身體比較脆弱、敏感族群做相關的應變及演練，這部分我們遵從CRC的規範來做相關的關懷與緊急的應變處理。"],["林委員月琴：我請環境部在三個月內召開跨部會會議，針對學校跟兒少出沒區域之空污標準來召開專家學者會議，且要以孩子的標準為主，而不是用大人的標準，這點能不能辦到？"],["彭部長啓明：好，可以。謝謝委員的建議。"],["林委員月琴：請召委再給我一點時間，我知道你要站起來了。","最後，我還是要問教育部，空污不僅是環境問題，更會影響學生的受教權是否平等。我的選區或者說我認養區域觀音區的樹林國小報到率僅剩下三成，全校僅剩下112人，其中三分之一是單親跟低收入戶學生。這些弱勢家庭遇到空污，你覺得他們有選擇權嗎？教育部？"],["廖專門委員雙慶：這部分部裡會來重視，而委員提的這幾所學校，我們也會……"],["林委員月琴：你剛才講到要保護敏感族群，其實連弱勢……為什麼？當學校週遭長期受污染，家長就不得不讓孩子轉學或跨學區就讀。但那是有能力的家庭，如果是沒有能力的家庭呢？因為他是弱勢！請問你對弱勢的支持是什麼？就是讓他們繼續待在更惡質的環境當中？他的健康呢？我常常說，弱勢家庭禁不起健康風險，畢竟他們沒有財力去處理健康問題！所以教育部是不是能夠去檢討，看有什麼機制可以協助這些孩子與這些家庭？至少在目前沒辦法處理的情況下，能不能符合孩子的最佳利益？或補貼交通費用讓他們離開這個環境去其他學校就讀？事實上他們根本沒有辦法搬離這個地方，所以請教育部先做一些評估，一樣地跟環境部在三個月內給我一個報告。"],["廖專門委員雙慶：好。"],["林委員月琴：最後當然就是期待我們建立學校周邊的污染工廠的距離，還有依據不同工廠樣態進行盤點、整頓一些規範。第二個，教育部應該針對空污風險高的學校有具體協助機制。第三個，三個月內將高中職以下納入「室內空氣品質管理法」監測範圍。第四，針對兒少專屬空污監測標準，三個月內邀集專家學者召開專家學者會議。謝謝召委。"],["彭部長啓明：謝謝委員很好的建議，我們會納入參考。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝部長還有各單位，就照委員的建議做這樣的後續處理。","接下來請陳菁徽進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}},{"id":"159204","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159204","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/597499b2503050fbc601d82f3143cda5ad7e46c29134393c89159ed41e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有請彭部長有請部長"},{"start":12.513,"end":39.194,"text":"陳委員早部長早部長在貴部這個陳生這個環境署的時候在土屋基金管理會有編寫一份這個污染土地再利用制度說明手冊您看過這本手冊嗎我知道這個法令他第八頁非常清楚的寫著污染的土地再利用有兩種方式一個就是說你先去整治一直到解除劣管再使用另外一個方式就是說整治跟這個"},{"start":41.479,"end":69.938,"text":"再利用它是並行的就是並行的但原則上根據土屋法就是說前面的例子就先做完整治再來利用但是機有很少的例子是並行來做那土屋法第51條第二項受污染的這個整治場址在進行開發利用之前必須提出同時提出整治計畫那目的當然是保障這個環境安全跟民眾健康所以部長您熟悉這樣子的陳述嗎"},{"start":73.419,"end":91.288,"text":"那我接著要請部長看一下土屋法第17條第二項的規定被公告污染土地受污染整治長植的土地原則上禁止的土地利用行為包含 下面一條我把它框起來了環境影響評估法所規定的開發行為"},{"start":95.345,"end":101.602,"text":"除非除非他經過中央主管機關的認同那這條法當初定的目的是什麼部長"},{"start":102.797,"end":130.734,"text":"其實報告委員以這個案例如果說你關心的協和電廠它其實106年曾經這種被列為污染的場址那其實經過一年大概一年多的時間107到108也整治過所以它就我們現在認定它並不是所謂的土壤污染的你講的時間點我有更後面的時間點的資料給你這個立法的目的就很清楚嘛"},{"start":131.855,"end":135.522,"text":"這個目前基本上是不是要在這個利用行為一定要這個要"},{"start":138.118,"end":148.501,"text":"環境評估法規定的開發行為這個部分它是要符合否則會被限制除非主管機關同意那我們再看下一張 部長上個月底2月26號環評會不顧台電協和電廠世界開發案的土壤受嚴重污染的事實質疑在當天要通過環評你們自己打點這第17條第二項"},{"start":162.225,"end":187.111,"text":"我當然知道你們會說協和電廠這個土地不是被公告為不是被公告為已經處理過了土壤污染這個整治場址但這就是台電規避的原因因為一旦被公告為這個土地這個污染整治場址依法就不能再進行在這之前不能進行這個再咖啡利用所以台電明知道有污染"},{"start":187.771,"end":192.796,"text":"就是刻意對環境部環評會隱瞞資訊好根據我手上這幾份調查報告你先看投影片2019比你講的時間還晚2021、2022同樣的監測點多次重複出現土壤重金屬嚴重超標那"},{"start":208.314,"end":221.229,"text":"其中有一份我在2月25號部長那天總質詢你說你沒看到我新聞是2月25號後面有給政文是給你們然後副本是給台電跟基隆市市政府我給這個報告給你們這個報告裡面"},{"start":225.578,"end":229.56,"text":"就是剛剛我提到的這些檢查2019、2012、2012都有發現很多有污染情況但是環平火車就是硬要開下去硬開我必須說"},{"start":239.522,"end":248.61,"text":"非常離譜的台電委託的單位太新工程在內部會議在2024年11月6號剛剛我提到的這個資訊是2019、2021、2022有一些污染的內部的證據他們所謂的自主性調查但是到去年11月6號"},{"start":261.622,"end":269.788,"text":"台電跟他所委託的公司 太新工程做內部的會議成就建議這太離譜了 你看這個圖 下一張那個圖 等一下我交給你"},{"start":274.489,"end":292.397,"text":"這個是封面內部會的封面你看看他裡面的建議跟討論怎麼寫因為好這個洪匡因為已經知道污染位置因為他們提前做了這個自主性調查他已經知道哪些點是污染的他說已經知道污染位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測"},{"start":297.391,"end":326.217,"text":"實在是太離譜了好我請問你2025年我們再來做一次如何你真的請考驗嗎台電這麼多年來引領土地這個污染的事實讓整個環評機制受到質疑導致主管機關環評會他們也看不到這個資料那我在環評會之前把資料寄給你們當天開會的時候環境部也說收到啊收到我們資料但是環評會跟火車失速的火車一樣一直往前撞"},{"start":327.503,"end":345.115,"text":"開綠燈讓他規避規避台電被列為這塊土地被列為土壤污染的整治場場址的這種不良企圖請問部長我們在物理市很多人問環境部是經濟部的小弟嗎不是結果委員你會叫我是小弟"},{"start":347.363,"end":367.01,"text":"那我剛剛講的這個資料呢第一個是環評基本上如果它是土壤這個整治區它要完成之後才能進行開發環評是環評的一個程序那至於說委員提到這個東西我歡迎委員我們就來兼具你跟我講的重點等一下我繼續你跟我講的重點你一直在傳的跟那些市長講的話一樣"},{"start":368.65,"end":396.481,"text":"就是什麼整治跟這個環評是平行式是兩件事情這個你們利用那個法律的模糊來解釋為什麼不是先整治再環評到最後來看給大家看公平啊你們竟然組決議裡面通過原則就是通過17比0我形容那個是習近平跟金正恩開的會才會有17比0然後附在學藝寫的一些重要的事情你們要去持續要去追隨就是遵守那個整治法"},{"start":397.541,"end":417.335,"text":"所以基本上來我們來看看總之其實我給這個等一下我把這份給你然後你要看那個字規避這些地點已經遭到污染了所以我們這種自檢查是我們要避開這一點公然的要這樣子寫我要這份資料要得多辛苦我們早就有了其實接避者早就有了台電"},{"start":417.955,"end":430.144,"text":"怎麼隱瞞放多久才肯給我們包括委員那個接避者是不是送給我我們就成立接避者調查委員會然後來處理這個事情左院長已經同意了所以也非做不可那委員是不是也請台電來報告可以等一下我就交給你所以好我們來看這是當年這個台電的環評書內容明顯的造假說謊台電跟受託的這個泰興公司這個他前面有講說移動點嘛因為你們知道這些點是污染的所以你就避開了那個點"},{"start":446.676,"end":460.18,"text":"那最重要的是他隱瞞了真相他告訴你不要去碰那些點第二個泰興公司他不但是台電的自行檢測單位他竟然也是台電委託交出環評書的這個單位這樣有沒有利益衝突啊那這就是為什麼環評會議當天你們只交到一個點一個採樣點說不出事這個怎麼總是有探親話問沒有 真猜不到"},{"start":473.264,"end":482.03,"text":"事實上自主調查是採了59個點位像話嗎?四千圈跑了59個點位然後知道哪邊有污染然後再找一個乾淨的是嗎?是這樣嗎?結果交出一個點位太離譜了明顯違反環評法第11條提出的文書明知為不實事項而記載這情勢所以環境部你要不要追究台電的造假問題還是要當共犯還是要當共犯"},{"start":499.451,"end":505.174,"text":"委員你送來的東西我們就成立一個吹哨者調查調查這段過程非做不可那這個是不是請台電來回應沒有他能回應嗎我剛剛講了有一句他是不實的嗎我現在問題是那天通過環評會議部長我要先跟你說你的環評會議你的環評會議17比0通過"},{"start":519.015,"end":536.606,"text":"17比0是一個一個問有共識委員你不能用那樣的說法我們是民主國家沒有 委員你不能這樣說那天的很多的媒體都在現場17比0是什麼我沒有造假17比0是問說委員要不要共識決還是什麼決一個一個問過大家委員都沒有任何的意見這個是一個共識決"},{"start":538.047,"end":558.407,"text":"下面寫附帶決議說以後再補充說明也希望後續應該積極依照土屋法去辦理天啊有這個我就是通過了然後附帶決議說你們再去補充這些資料說明有這樣的水準的這個會議嗎我們發生什麼事情部長"},{"start":559.984,"end":577.084,"text":"但是上週四我不在場那天環評會我們三個立委在場上週四環團去環境部抗議在提出這些施政的時候媒體是報導我是想請教你有這回事嗎環境部有回應說已經要求基隆市進場查證如果查證處時完成整治後才能進行世界開發這是事實嗎"},{"start":579.987,"end":593.592,"text":"這個其實本來就是規定報告委員其實有一些要開發一定要整治環境才能再開發這個是過去已經有一個事實在這邊過去很多的案例都是這個樣子並不是說這個案子特別不一樣部長"},{"start":594.372,"end":611.64,"text":"土地搜燃那你要再宣證就是要基隆市市長當天也在場2月26號你要他再做一次檢查那你還名我們就告訴你這麼多資料開會前給你而且還有很多程序問題等一下我再繼續告訴你我們要求給了這個資料以後竟然還名會繼續開繼續開完全不停派你們那個市長徐市長對這個支持方那麼友善對反方一直罵"},{"start":621.741,"end":650.307,"text":"沒有委員那天你們已經我們提出程序問題因為我事前給你資料可是已經被霸佔的主席台了當然那個聲音很吵雜他說我們立委沒有資格提程序問題那委員那個環評會是以委員為主環評委員為主裡面有三分之二都是學者專家我跟你講程序問題在什麼地方就是第一個本來七天前開會要公告所有資料他讀了核心資料第六章第六章核心是缺的消失的好把那張給他們看"},{"start":652.881,"end":671.738,"text":"毒藥啊 消失的毒藥 那是核心資料啊就是我們最重視的那一點那一點資料沒有公開啊那你開什麼懷評大會包委員 那本書是厚厚的 裡面是有的你是破場戲啊好 沒關係 那天我今天沒有辦法 這個徐司長當天也是對這個反方非常的不客氣對這個支持方 講話很不客氣"},{"start":678.68,"end":693.956,"text":"因為那天卓部長已經指示要進行行政調查他答應我 你在旁邊對不對歡迎委員把這個送過來我就來調查來處理這個資料你們沒有嗎我把資料寄給你們因為那個是吹哨者"},{"start":694.659,"end":717.63,"text":"NO 這一部分是台電的台電有這個資料幫委員是不是請台電回覆一下反正行政調查第一個我要做行政調查否則你們就是共犯我們去調查真相然後第二個我要知道進度多久可以完成第三個在這行政調查之前二月二十六環民會是不是要先撤銷他的結論通過的結論這關係所有人民的這個土地健康跟國民的安全"},{"start":725.289,"end":746.034,"text":"請他回答一下因為卓院長在總質詢有說可以進行行政調查謝謝主席委員好台電公司在這邊做兩點聲明簡單的先回覆第一件事情土屋法跟環評法這兩個的法源是互不干涉的"},{"start":747.746,"end":762.156,"text":"剛剛部長有特別提示土定整理完成之後我強調的是我們已經找出很多資料你們在規避土屋因為你們說你們沒有被公告是污染的這個場址嗎不是 土屋法委員我們先這樣講嘛你先把土屋法的法源跟環評法的法源兩個似乎不干擾沒有先後秩序你們先不要再處理你自己的程序你先通過然後我們再去調查沒有沒有沒有 委員你這樣講就"},{"start":777.866,"end":795.998,"text":"比較不合乎邏輯了麻煩你回座我沒辦法跟他溝通就是說我部長因為卓院長當時有說就行政調查重啟嘛基隆市政府也叫他再調查一次2025年看通不通得過嘛我已經告訴你2019、2021、2022年你們還有多錄聯本欸很毒欸 七倍欸好 那我就行政調查好嗎好 好了 OK 好接下來是可以再跟委員說明清楚了好不好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":202,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時15分）謝謝主席。有請彭部長。"],["主席：來，請部長。"],["彭部長啓明：陳委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，貴部前身是環境署的時候，在土污基金管理會有編寫一份污染土地再利用制度說明手冊，您看過這本手冊嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：我知道這個法令。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，它第8頁非常清楚寫出污染的土地再利用有兩種方式，一個就是先去整治一直到解除列管再使用，另外一個方式就是整治跟再利用是並行的。但原則上根據土污法，前面的例子就是先做完整治再來利用，但是極有很少的例子是並行來做。土污法第五十一條第二項，受污染的整治場址在進行開發利用之前必須同時提出整治計畫，目的當然是保障環境安全跟民眾健康，所以部長，您熟悉這樣子的陳述嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：熟悉、知道，對。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我接著要請部長看一下土污法第十七條第二項的規定，被公告土地受污染，即整治場址的土地，原則上禁止的土地利用行為，包含下面一條，我把它框起來了：「環境影響評估法規定之開發行為」，除非它要經過中央主管機關的認同，這條法當初定的目的是什麼？部長。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，以這個案例，如果是你關心的協和電廠，它在106年曾經是被列為污染的場址，其實經過大概一年多的時間，107到108年也整治過，所以就我們現在認定，它並不是所謂土壤污染的管制區。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒關係，你講的時間點，我有更後面時間點的資料給你，就是這個立法的目的很清楚，基本上是不是利用行為一定要是環境評估法規定的開發行為？這個部分它要符合，否則會被限制，除非主管機關同意。","我們再看下一張簡報，部長，上個月底2月26號，環評會不顧台電協和電廠四接開發案的土地土壤受嚴重污染的事實，執意在當天要通過環評，你們自己打臉第十七條第二項。我當然知道你們會說協和電廠的土地，你剛剛有講不是被公告為已經處理過的土壤污染整治場址，但這就是台電規避的原因，因為一旦被公告為土地污染整治場址，依法在這之前就不能進行再開發利用，所以台電明知道有污染，就是刻意對環境部、環評會隱瞞資訊。","根據我手上這幾份調查報告，你先看投影片，2019，比你講的時間還晚，2021、2022，同樣的監測點多次重複出現土壤重金屬嚴重超標，其中有一份，我在2月25號，部長，那天總質詢，你說你沒看到，公文是2月25號，後面正本是給你們，副本是給台電跟基隆市政府，我把這個報告給你們，這個報告裡面就是剛剛我提到的這些檢查，2019、2021、2022都有發現很多有污染的情況，但是環評火車就是硬要開下去，硬開！我必須說非常離譜的，台電委託的單位泰興工程在2024年11月6號內部會議，剛剛我提到的這個資訊是2019、2021、2022有一些污染的內部證據，他們做所謂的自主性調查，但是到去年11月6號，台電跟泰興，即它所委託的公司泰興工程做內部會議時的建議，實在太離譜了。你看這個圖，就是下一張的圖，等一下我交給你，這個是內部會議的封面，你看看它裡面的建議跟討論怎麼寫，這個紅框「因已知污染位置」，因為他們提前做了自主性調查，它已經知道哪些點是污染的，它說「已知污染位置，正式調查時可移點（避開）再採樣檢測」，實在是太離譜了。","好，我請問你2025年我們再來做一次如何？你經得起考驗嗎？台電這麼多年來隱匿土地污染的事實，讓整個環評機制受到質疑，導致主管機關環評會他們也看不到這個資料，我在環評會之前把資料寄給你們，當天開會的時候，環境部也說收到我們資料，但是環評會跟失速的火車一樣，一直往前撞、開綠燈，台電規避這塊土地被列為土壤污染的整治場址的這種不良企圖，請問部長，我們再問一次，很多人問，環境部是經濟部的小弟嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：不是！只有委員你會叫我是小弟，報告委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我剛剛講的這個資料呢？"],["彭部長啓明：第一個是環評，基本上如果它是土壤整治區，它要完成之後才能進行開發，環評是環評的一個程序，至於委員提到這個東西，我歡迎委員，我們就來檢舉、來處理這個事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：我繼續，你跟我講的重點，你一直再強調，跟那些司長講的話一樣，就是整治和環評是平行式、是兩件事情，這個你們利用法律的模糊來解釋，為什麼不是先整治再環評？到最後來看、給大家看，公平啊！你們竟然主決議裡面原則上就是通過17比0，我形容那是習近平跟金正恩開的會才會有17比0，然後附帶決議寫了一些重要的事情，你們持續要去追隨、遵守整治法。","所以基本上我們來看看，總質詢時，等一下我把這份給你，然後你要看那個字「規避」，這些地點已經知道污染了，所以我們正式檢查時，我們要避開這一點，公然這樣子寫，我要這份資料要得多辛苦，我們早就有了，其實揭弊者早就有了，台電怎麼隱瞞、放多久才肯給我們……"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個揭弊者是不是送給我，我們就成立揭弊者調查委員會來處理這個事情？"],["陳委員昭姿：卓院長已經同意了，所以你也非做不可。"],["彭部長啓明：委員，是不是也請台電來報告？"],["陳委員昭姿：可以，等一下我就交給你。我們來看，這是當年台電的環評書內容，明顯的造假說謊，台電跟受託的泰興公司，它前面有講到移動點，因為你們知道這些點是污染的，所以你就避開了那個點，最重要是它隱瞞了真相，告訴你不要去碰那些點。第二個，泰興公司不但是台電的自行檢測單位，它竟然也是台電委託交出環評書的單位，這樣有沒有利益衝突啊？這就是為什麼環評會議當天你們只交了一個採樣點，你們說沒事，沒有總石油碳氫化合物，是零！偵測不到。事實上自主調查採了59個點位，像話嗎？事先跑了59個點位，知道哪邊有污染，然後再找一個乾淨的，是嗎？是這樣嗎？結果交出一個點位，太離譜了！明顯違反環評法第十一條，「提出的文書，明知為不實事項而記載之情形」。所以環境部你要不要追究台電的造假問題？還是要當共犯？"],["彭部長啓明：委員，針對你送來的東西，我們成立了一個吹哨者調查，調查這段過程……"],["陳委員昭姿：非做不可。"],["彭部長啓明：這是不是請台電來回應？"],["陳委員昭姿：他能回應嗎？我剛剛講的內容，有一句話是不實的嗎？"],["彭部長啓明：來，請副總。"],["陳委員昭姿：我現在的問題是，那天通過環評會議……部長，我要先跟你說你的環評會議，環評會議是17比0通過……"],["彭部長啓明：17比0是一個一個問，有共識，委員你不能用那樣的說法，我們是民主國家。"],["陳委員昭姿：你們大概很少見識到一個17比0……"],["彭部長啓明：委員，你不能這樣說，那天有很多媒體都在現場。"],["陳委員昭姿：17比0是事實嘛，我沒有造假。"],["彭部長啓明：17比0是問委員要不要共識決，還是什麼決，一個一個問過大家，委員都沒有任何的意見，這是一個共識決。"],["陳委員昭姿：但通過是事實，下面附帶決議寫：以後再補充說明，希望後續應該積極依照土污法去辦理。喔！天啊！有這個……就是通過了，然後附帶決議說，你們再去補充這些資料說明，有這樣水準的會議嗎？你們發生什麼事情？部長。","上週四我不在場，但那天環評會我們3個立委在場。上週四環團去環境部抗議，在提出這些事證的時候，媒體報導……我是想請教你，有這回事嗎？環境部回應說，已經要求基隆市進廠查證，如果查證屬實，完成整治後才能進行四接開發，這是事實嗎？我看到的媒體……"],["彭部長啓明：這個其實本來就是規定。報告委員，有一些開發，一定要整治完竣才能開發，這是過去已經有一個事實在那邊，過去很多案例都是這個樣子，並不是這個案子特別不一樣。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，基隆市長2月26號當天也在場，你要他再做一次檢查，我們都告訴你這麼多資料了，開會前給你，而且還有很多程序問題，等一下我再繼續告訴你，我們要求給了這個資料以後，竟然環評會繼續開，完全不停！派你們的徐司長，他對支持方那麼友善，對反方一直罵……"],["彭部長啓明：沒有，委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們的主持、主席……"],["彭部長啓明：那天你們已經……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們提出程序問題，因為我們事前給你資料……"],["彭部長啓明：可是已經被霸占主席臺了，當然那個聲音很吵雜。"],["陳委員昭姿：他說我們立委沒有資格提程序問題？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那個環評會是以環評委員為主，裡面有三分之二都是學者專家……"],["陳委員昭姿：我跟你講程序問題在什麼地方，本來開會7天前要公告所有資料，他獨漏核心資料第6章，第6章核心資料是缺的、消失的，把那一章給他們看，獨漏、消失的是核心資料啊！就是我們最重要、重視的那一點，那一點在資料中沒有公開，那你們開什麼環評大會？程序正義，你們是過場戲啊！"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，那本書厚厚的，裡面是有的。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，沒關係，我今天沒有辦法……徐司長當天對反方非常的不客氣，對支持方……他講話很不客氣。好，主席站起來了，我再把它說完，那天卓院長已經指示要進行行政調查，對不對？他答應我了。你在旁邊對不對？"],["彭部長啓明：嗯。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那就……"],["彭部長啓明：歡迎委員把那個送過來，我再來調查、處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個資料你們沒有嗎？我把資料寄給你們了。"],["彭部長啓明：因為那個是吹哨者。"],["陳委員昭姿：No，這一部分是台電的，台電有這個資料。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，是不是請台電回復一下？"],["陳委員昭姿：你真的需要，我也會給你。好，反正行政調查，第一個，我要看到你們做行政調查，否則你們就是共犯，要調查真相；第二個，我要知道進度，多久可以完成？第三個，在做行政調查之前，2月26號環評會是不是要先撤銷他們通過的結論？這關係到所有人民的土地健康跟國民安全。"],["主席：陳委員，要不要請他回答一下？"],["陳委員昭姿：好，因為卓院長在總質詢時說可以，要進行行政調查。"],["郭副總經理天合：謝謝主席。委員好，台電公司在這邊做兩點聲明，先做簡單的回復，第一件事情，土污法跟環評法這兩個法源是互不干涉的，剛剛部長有特別提示……"],["陳委員昭姿：請停！"],["郭副總經理天合：土地整理完成之後……"],["陳委員昭姿：我強調的是，我們已經找出很多資料，你們在規避土污，因為你們說你們沒有被公告污染的場址嘛……"],["郭副總經理天合：不是，土污法……委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：我告訴你，有！的確是偽造文書。"],["郭副總經理天合：委員，我們先這樣講，土污法的法源跟環評法的法源兩個互不扞格，沒有先後次序………"],["陳委員昭姿：你們不要再處理自己的程序問題，你們先通過，然後再去調查嗎？"],["郭副總經理天合：沒有，委員你這樣講就比較不合乎邏輯了。"],["陳委員昭姿：麻煩你回座。部長，我沒辦法跟他溝通。部長，因為卓院長當時有說行政調查重啟，基隆市政府也叫他們重新再調查一次，2025年看通不通得過嘛，我已經告訴你們2019、2021、2022的，裡面還有多氯聯苯，很毒耶！7倍耶！好，我就請你們行政調查好嗎？"],["主席：好，OK啦！私下還是可以再跟委員說明清楚，好不好？我給你們時間說明，你們也是沒辦法。","接下來請林月琴委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":284,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","盧縣一","王育敏","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","麥玉珍","賴士葆","張啓楷","張智倫","楊曜","翁曉玲","劉建國","陳瑩","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","黃秀芳","蘇清泉"],"page_start":199,"meetingDate":["2025-03-17"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、衛生福利部、教育部、經濟部、台灣電力公司、台灣中油公司就「氣象變異致\n國內空品惡化，精進預報與跨部會應變作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142901_00004"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}