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萬美玲等禮具貨物稅條例交財政委員會審查邊緣地區學校教育發展條例國民體育法交交易局文化委員會審查性別平等工作法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查"},{"start":2015.983,"end":2029.33,"text":"88至91委員 泛銀等 擬廢紙狀世代政策與產業發展促進法 交經濟委員會審查運動財政發展條例 交財政量委員會審查人工智慧基本法 交交通委員會審查民法 交司法及法治委員會審查"},{"start":2030.831,"end":2048.696,"text":"九十二至九十七文陳英登一句跟中招勞防止法交內政社會福利局衛生環境兩委員會審查農民健康保險條例交經濟社會福利局衛生環境兩委員會審查原住民組委員會組織法交司法及法制內政兩委員會審查勞工保險條例一是放射施法交社會福利局衛生環境委員會審查"},{"start":2049.176,"end":2065.773,"text":"老年農民福利津貼暫行條例交社會福利組織環境經濟內政三委員會審查98委員范雲你撤回工會法你請院會同意撤回99委員盧憲宜你撤回醫療法你請院會同意撤回100至102警政環境審議國家海洋科技營運中心設置條例交司法及法治內政兩委員會審查"},{"start":2067.054,"end":2091.535,"text":"保險法交財政委員會審查 公會法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查103-213 金管會財政部 交通部 考試院 勞動部 環境部 抒發部 經濟部 核安會 通傳會 法務部 考選部 衛福部等含重署名資料交相關委員會214-234 經濟部 交通部 環境部等含為預算決議事項交相關委員會處理235-236 社會福利及衛生環境委員會含為與行政命令審查期限 請查照案"},{"start":2092.296,"end":2102.658,"text":"國民大堂提議陣列一至二為盧縣醫等理局醫療法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查氣候變遷因應法交社會福利及衛生環境經濟財政內政交通階級文化六委員會審查"},{"start":2104.437,"end":2131.702,"text":"三委員王玉敏登一句中華民國國定紀念日與節日實施法交內政委員會審查四委員黃建斌登一句貨物稅條例交財政委員會審查五至六委員邱振軍登一句切後變遷因應法交社會福利及衛生環境經濟財政內政交通教育文化六委員會審查公會法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查七至八委員傅坤琦擬撤回對第11屆第二回席第16次會議三讀通過警察人員人事條例部分條文"},{"start":2132.362,"end":2145.793,"text":"發展觀光條例部分條文決議所提之附議案民進黨黨團體甄列9至10委員張雅玲德女居運動財政發行條例交交易及文化財政兩委員會審查運動產業發展條例交交易及文化委員會審查11至13委員吳麗華德女居運動財政發行條例交交易及文化財政兩委員會審查"},{"start":2151.517,"end":2167.883,"text":"今年基本法人權歷史場域保存條例交交易及文化委員會審查十四委員王美惠等一區公會法交社會福利及衛生環境委員會審查十五委員范雲等一區地方制度法交內政司法及法治兩委員會審查十六委員李博義等一區立法院議事規則交司法及法治委員會審查"},{"start":2169.964,"end":2184.272,"text":"17.29委員郭國文等委員沈博洋等委員黃潔等委員郭玉琴等委員張宏祿等委員張雅玲等委員林月琴等委員李柏毅等委員吳秉岳等委員陳培宇等委員蔡玉宇等委員林一金等分別擬具臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例交內政委員會審查"},{"start":2185.473,"end":2213.494,"text":"三十 委員林一錦你撤回人工智慧基本法你請原會同意撤回三十一至七十行政院經濟部農業部環境部等含充書面資料交相關委員會台灣民眾黨黨團體整列七十一台灣民眾黨黨團裡具犯罪被害人權益保障法交司法及法治委員會審查議事處整列七十二人事處含為第十一屆全國不分區級僑居國外國民地埔當選立法委員台灣民眾黨籍劉文淑冰於一百一十四年三月十四日到院宣誓就職請查詔案"},{"start":2214.655,"end":2228.713,"text":"質詢事項 對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢 宣讀完畢好 現在宣讀完畢 接下來就請登記的委員發言首先我們先請第一位王逸川委員發言"},{"start":2239.093,"end":2263.065,"text":"好 主席 各位委員 針對第十一屆第三會期第六次會議議程報告事項 執行事項及對行政院院長提出施政翻增及施政報告繼續執行 建請照議事之程草案及增列報告事項通過提案的民主進步黨立法院黨團好 那接下來再請第二位羅志強委員發言"},{"start":2270.834,"end":2299.223,"text":"本院國民黨黨團針對第十一屆第三會期第六會議議事日程以議程草案提報院會處理是否有當盡情公決提案人中國國民黨立法院黨團好那接下來再請第三位陳培宇委員發言好不發言好好那第四位沈伯陽委員發言"},{"start":2301.388,"end":2314.533,"text":"也不用好那接下來請第五位郭育晴委員發言好不發言好那還有第六位王洪瑋委員是否發言好好謝謝"},{"start":2322.002,"end":2331.967,"text":"現在登記委員都已發言完畢那我們來進行處理提案先提案先處理那請問針對王逸川委員的提議有無異議有異見好有異議的話我們就來進行表決請清點在場人數"},{"start":2355.896,"end":2362.381,"text":"好在場人數18位那麼在好接下來請贊成者請舉手好請反對者舉手"},{"start":2380.515,"end":2399.81,"text":"好請放下贊成者是九位反對者九位那麼這個報告委員會本案的表決結果可否同署那依本院的相關規定可否同署時再取決於主席那麼本席決定反對本案不通過接下來就是"},{"start":2409.741,"end":2426.634,"text":"接下來就處理羅志強委員的提案在場有無異議好 那麼有異議的話就進行表決現在清點在場人數在場人數18人 贊成者請舉手好 贊成人數9位 那反對者請舉手"},{"start":2442.93,"end":2458.023,"text":"好 反對者也是9位 反對者9位報告委員會 那麼本案表決結果可否同署 依本院相關的規定可否同署時取決於主席 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院長辛苦了本席今天要針對新住民的議題來跟院長做一個探討台灣的政府為了協助新住民適應台灣的生活其實擬定了很多友善新住民的政策例如像訂定新住民照顧服務"},{"start":1903.331,"end":1929.31,"text":"還有這個設置新住民發展基金還有辦理新住民生活適應輔導計畫那還有建置新住民賠利發展資訊網我前兩天才去參加了移民署所主辦的這個賠你銀向這個新生活的這個活動那甚至在小英總統的時代還把東南亞七國的語言列入了這個國中小的這個課綱這是世界的這個首例"},{"start":1930.01,"end":1952.012,"text":"去年我們也三讀通過新住民的專法所以我們也可以看得出來台灣政府其實對新住民都展現了很大的誠意希望新住民在台灣能夠好好的發展好好的生活賴清德總統在過去其實多次下鄉跟新住民面對面的座談"},{"start":1953.513,"end":1969.938,"text":"所以我們也看得出來賴總統對於新住民的支持跟關心甚至有一次在座談的時候新住民朋友有提到就是說因為我們新住民都是來自於世界各國"},{"start":1970.618,"end":1995.947,"text":"那來到台灣其實對語言也好或風俗習慣也好其實是非常的不適應那可是呢一來到台灣幾乎大部分的新住民都有面臨這個養育兒女的這個狀況尤其是孕育兒女的狀況那很需要自己的親親父母親呢到台灣來做這個陪伴我想這個都是基於這個親情的這個呼喚所以那時候呢總統聽了這個新住民的這個心聲之後呢"},{"start":2000.228,"end":2012.378,"text":"所以在這個大選2023年大選的時候呢就擬定了新住民的這個六大政策那其中有一項呢就是要鬆綁新住民直系尊親屬來台探親規定的這個停留的這個規定"},{"start":2016.221,"end":2039.713,"text":"那當然我們有跟這個相關的單位像這個內政部也好陸委會也好還有外交部我們都有提到說新住民其實需求並不是很多我們只希望能夠比照外專人才專法就是說外專人才延攬條例來台的新住民其實他們的父母親可以在台灣停留一年可是呢"},{"start":2040.273,"end":2056.943,"text":"我们来自于世界各国婚姻移民来到台湾的这些新住民呢其实我们的父母亲停留的时间也许只有三个月最长就是不超过六个月所以竟然透过专业人才演览条约莱特新住民"},{"start":2057.803,"end":2073.284,"text":"這樣子的這個這個條例為什麼我們沒有辦法來做比照所以我跟各個部會曾經做了很多的探討那當然這已經討論了一段時間我想了解就是說到底這個有沒有進展我們到底有沒有實施要實施的話是什麼時候會通過請問院長"},{"start":2076.055,"end":2099.304,"text":"謝謝委員我們都結成了歡迎要跟台灣當朋友要把鄧理當家鄉的任何新住民的朋友因為總統的原因來到這裡跟我們的生活融合在一起我們也會竭力的來照顧跟他們也融合在一起所以總統跟新住民朋友跟團體接觸的那個經驗也是我們普遍共同的經驗"},{"start":2100.524,"end":2117.461,"text":"那我們當然也希望從法制上能夠來做全面的檢討跟更新如果說剛剛您提到的這個來台灣遵清署來台灣的時間等等的問題我們在一個橫頻的比較底下內政部有沒有再進一步的來做規劃請部長來做說明"},{"start":2119.77,"end":2143.959,"text":"謝謝羅委員羅委員對於新住民的政策可以說是一個非常重要的推手我想羅美玲委員所關心的議題目前沒有錯新住民專遷署來台停留時間最長六個月羅委員多次跟我們的相關單位包括我們移民署都有做協調所以目前我們已經有跟相關單位的言商取得共識"},{"start":2144.759,"end":2173.635,"text":"就是希望說在台設有戶籍且懷孕或育有兩歲以下親生子女的新住民延長他父母在台停留期間的法令目前我們可能是朝著可以6個月再加6個月6加6對 以這個方向來處理現在相關的法制作業包括要修正入出國跟移民法的配合修法的程序已經陸陸續續完成可能最近公告出去的話就可以來執行"},{"start":2174.465,"end":2202.28,"text":"OK好謝謝部長我們聽到了一個非常開心的一個進展因為這個議題其實從總統提出來之後呢我們就一直在做討論所以那當然新住民朋友也是非常的關心一直在問說到底有沒有進展既然是總統的政見就一定要實現嘛我在想這是總統對新住民的這個承諾那再來還有就是說也有很多台灣的民眾有在想說如果是說我們讓這個新住民的尊卿署來台一年"},{"start":2202.7,"end":2223.753,"text":"那有沒有健保的這個問題這個部分是不是要說明一下呢目前為止我們並沒有討論這個進度了因為原來在六個月的停留期間他是屬於停留的身份所以沒有辦法適用健保那目前我們先以這個延長六個月到六個月的一個停留的期間所以還是停留的身份仍然是停留的身份"},{"start":2224.173,"end":2247.162,"text":"是我们只有拘留的部分才有健保的问题嘛对不对所以既然是停留就没有健保的问题所以说台湾民族所担心到时候会被造成健保的这个负担我想这个部分是没有的所以这没有健保劳健保的问题就对了这纯粹就是考量人道的考量让新住民的尊亲属可以有多一点的时间来陪伴自己的孙子自己的女儿或"},{"start":2247.962,"end":2268.469,"text":"这个自己的女儿所以我在想这个都是人道的这个考量那当然我知道说目前我们设定的就是家里育有两岁以下的新住民家庭就可以来申请纯粹就是说让这个尊亲属可以来做这个陪伴嘛对不对OK好谢谢以上谢谢OK那再来呢还有就是有关于这个劳动部"},{"start":2269.829,"end":2285.258,"text":"勞動部在2月的時候有預告婚姻移民新住民將納入救福法那我是不是要請一下勞動部長那也就是說在2月10號有公告就是為了落實保障新住民的就業權益"},{"start":2286.198,"end":2296.382,"text":"希望藉由提供各項的服務措施跟就業的獎勵補助計畫呢希望讓這個新住民呢也可以納入救福法的第24條就是資歷促進就業的這個對象其實勞動部呢"},{"start":2301.764,"end":2321.602,"text":"我們本來就有擬定促進新住民就業補助作業要點在新住民的這個身份上來講的話其實我們設定的是未涉及的新住民嘛對不對那現在我們要把這個新住民的納入救福法第24條那想請教一下就是新住民的這一個"},{"start":2322.342,"end":2338.458,"text":"定義經過這個新住民基本法通過之後其實它新住民的定義是有擴大來做解釋所以我想了解一下說我們把這個新住民納入救福法二十四條到底我們的身份定義有沒有改變好 跟倫報告"},{"start":2339.48,"end":2353.44,"text":"確實在民國97年的時候當時其實我們訂了一個對於新住民的就業補助的要點當時那主要是主要的範圍是設定是在他是這個未涉及他有居留但未涉及"},{"start":2354.221,"end":2382.649,"text":"那當然現在在新住民基本法通過之後那現在我們在今年的二月的時候我們把這個新住民在納入的救護法第一項的第十款裡面的這個特定的對象把它納進去以後現在的狀況是不管你有沒有涉及你都可以取得我們比方說雇用的獎助或者是我們職業訓練的這個生活的津貼你都可以有得到這相關我們的幫助所以它的範圍是擴大了"},{"start":2384.029,"end":2398.766,"text":"所以明確的來講我們還是設定是婚姻移民像利用其他比如說專業技術進來的新住民是不適用的嘛新住民配偶就是婚姻移民嘛因為婚姻移民基本上他們都選"},{"start":2399.866,"end":2414.097,"text":"因為剛我提到就是說新住民剛來到台灣其實他們因為語言的不通所以造成他這個就業其實他是屬於比較弱勢的所以我們有一些比較重要的一些補助比如說我有看到有臨時工作津貼職業訓練生活津貼僱用獎助還有"},{"start":2417.279,"end":2444.398,"text":"求職交通補助金就是在這個新住民的這個促進新住民就業補助作為要點本來就有的一些補助項目嘛那我們現在把這個救福法第二四條納入的新住民就像部長所提到的就是說不管你設不設局你有居留也好或者是入籍也好都可以納入可是只限婚姻移民嘛就是先住配偶的部分"},{"start":2445.198,"end":2464.495,"text":"那這部分什麼時候要實施?因為那時候2月10號公告的時候有說可能就是3月份的時候會來實施可是到目前為止好像還沒看到好,我們會來盡快我們實施的同時也會把原本那個要點就範圍比較限縮的那個要點會停止使用那我們會來盡快的趕快來把這部分實施所以這個時程大約是今年會通過嗎?"},{"start":2465.636,"end":2480.243,"text":"應該是會對因為對新住民來講就是一個很大的一個進展就像過去的話只有補助的是未涉及的新住民現在只要你是有新住民的身份其實當然我們還強調是婚姻移民的部分OK好"},{"start":2481.263,"end":2493.699,"text":"好謝謝部長那再來還有呢下一題的話可是也是跟勞動部或是我們內政部其實都有關係那下一題的話我想探討的是這個預期的這個"},{"start":2497.623,"end":2512.872,"text":"應該是說移工啦非法移工的這個部分這問題呢已經討論了非常久了像我們國內的話現在呢預期拘留的這個人口數呢去年其實是突破了14萬人那其中失聯的移工就超過了9萬人"},{"start":2514.687,"end":2535.365,"text":"好那剩下的是什麼呢可能就是因為來台灣利用觀光簽證或其他簽證進來然後就不離開留在台灣的所以我們這個預期居留的人口數是非常高的那相較十年前的話其實我們增加了將近的一倍就造成了一些這個邊境管理的一些困難"},{"start":2536.286,"end":2564.725,"text":"那当然雇主要重新寻觅这个移工其实也是不方便的那甚至还造成了一些治安的问题比如说像这个毒品炸漆甚至现在更是有充当黑道打手等等的这个治安问题那当然这个合法的这个移工如果说逃逸之后失联之后他就丧失了这个医疗的资源社会福利等等的这个保障那我常常见到很多一些医院的"},{"start":2565.385,"end":2582.41,"text":"像南投地方的一些醫院曾經也跟我澄清過他就說很多這個醫工到了這個醫院因為他並沒有這個合法的身份所以造成就是有一些醫療的一些費用醫院必須自己來承擔成了一些呆帳"},{"start":2583.73,"end":2600.086,"text":"可是基於一些人道的考量因為有時候他醫完病人也就跑掉了你也跟他要不到錢所以醫院也是有產生的一些呆帳等等那像這些當然為什麼會有這麼多的預期的這個拘留的人口我想我們應該可能要從源頭來"},{"start":2601.867,"end":2624.824,"text":"來重新來做思考那比如說我們現在引進的制度到底完不完善還有高昂的重借費還有薪資的待遇還有移工來源國的配合度等等像這些的話可能都會造成非法移工的產生因為只要逃獄了他就不用繳交高昂的重借費或者是說他覺得他的工作環境不好所以"},{"start":2625.424,"end":2648.269,"text":"他就去打黑工那當然所造成的這個問題是非常的這個複雜那這是台灣長年以來的問題可是我發現大家好像都是束手無策源頭無法管理那後面呢又產生這麼大的這麼大量的這個預期的居留人口那當然這個收容的也是一個很大的這個問題那我有看到就是說目前台灣呢"},{"start":2649.05,"end":2661.372,"text":"只有四個收容所台北、宜蘭、南投跟高雄這幾個收容所其實他們的收容量其實都不大像台北收容所"},{"start":2662.625,"end":2680.173,"text":"它只能容纳360人宜兰423南投480高雄450也就是说它最大的收容量四个收容所加起来也就1713人可是我刚才有提到我们的这个与其聚合人口有高达14万人你要如何去去化"},{"start":2681.033,"end":2703.066,"text":"如何去去化好源頭無法管理也無法去化那我們這個說到收容所我們最長的收容時間是只有28天就算遣送回國你也就是28天就把錢送回去甚至有些無法遣送因為拿不到他的旅行資料的也有理由真的拿不到可能就沒有辦法就是"},{"start":2704.744,"end":2717.914,"text":"回到他自己的母國可能繼續留在台灣時間到了你還得把他給放出去又造成另外一個社會的問題那我想請教想針對這個收容的這個這部分先請教我們部長"},{"start":2719.414,"end":2741.525,"text":"我們有沒有 你看我們的收容所只有四所那我們收容量也只有這麼多那針對這麼大的這個陶藝的這個預期的這居民人口我們要如何去去化這個部分要怎麼處理我知道像很多專情隊就是因為收容不足所以有時候明知道有這個陶藝移工他們也不去處理因為來了沒有辦法收容這個部分我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":2744.355,"end":2756.772,"text":"謝謝羅委員的指教委員所提到有關收容所不足的部分確實是行之有年再加上最近失聯移工確實比較多那因為台灣是有法制的國家所以我們不可能永久積留"},{"start":2758.313,"end":2784.821,"text":"再來遣送回去確實有一些困難因為他原來失聯移工的母國有的時候他不願意支付他遣送回國的費用所以說衍生我們的困擾目前內政部除了跟相關的勞政單位或者是觀光或者是交通單位有做比較好的源頭管理之外羅委員所關心的就是有關收容所的部分事實上在111年的時候第一階段我們已經有通過了所謂的請財政部的國有財產署"},{"start":2812.546,"end":2815.047,"text":"好 謝謝羅美玲委員質詢謝謝卓院長各部會首長的備詢接下來我們請登記第30號張家俊委員請質詢"},{"start":2832.952,"end":2836.594,"text":"院長我想請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢各位好"},{"start":2848.456,"end":2876.055,"text":"主委院長早安那我想喔大家的問題喔真的是非常的多那其實大家的這個初衷喔都是希望說我們台灣能夠更好我們的民生喔能夠更穩定那我想要請教院長啊就是近期喔在這個報紙上面喔傳的這個新聞媒體上面傳的沸沸揚揚的這個非綠賓購買綠電這一件事情啊不曉得部長有沒有跟您"},{"start":2877.82,"end":2879.471,"text":"這個報告過他的評估的結果"},{"start":2881.079,"end":2909.155,"text":"在歷次的會議當中有碰觸到這些個問題部長也有他的想法但一切都是在還要取得更多的這個雙方的合作或者意願那現在來看目前這個事情還不到一個最成熟的階段請部長說明所以可以請教院長報告委員我想這件事情等等等等我要請教院長我要請教院長院長請問這是您支持的嗎這個方向您是支持的嗎"},{"start":2909.815,"end":2926.569,"text":"如果我們可以從任何的地方方式取得成本足以我們負擔而且國內需求的所有的能源不管從什麼地方什麼方式都是我們在嘗試的方向之一"},{"start":2926.969,"end":2953.129,"text":"那我是不是來跟院長說一下第一就是去年十月在部長提出這個菲律賓重電的想法之後呢其實外界是多有批評但是近日看經濟部的這個台菲電力合作評估報告的結果顯示第一呢短期內是沒有辦法蓋海底電纜的那要用電池船運回來每度電要5.5元"},{"start":2954.93,"end":2979.681,"text":"那長期要建設這個呂宋海峽的電纜能源署自己都說現階段而言呢不管是成本、技術、法規面都有待克服那更存在著這個地緣政治的風險那這明明代表像菲律賓購買綠電是有風險的然而昨天經濟部自己發了一個新聞稿"},{"start":2981.155,"end":3002.99,"text":"結論就是在菲律賓蓋電廠是具有可行性的那目標價是4塊錢所以4塊錢是您所說的合理的電價嗎部長說明報告委員4塊錢是我說的我們大概高於4塊錢就向外部買這個綠電是沒有意義的"},{"start":3004.591,"end":3022.858,"text":"所以我們在評估這份報告是在做可行性評估也就是說要進行這件事情我們必須要先了解是否可行所以意思就是說現在估計每度電要5.5元就是不可行的意思囉不是喔"},{"start":3024.378,"end":3043.768,"text":"他們所引述的資料是日本現在的船載的這些儲能櫃所送的電的容量算出來一度電需要五塊五毛錢但是五塊五是你不能接受的當然不能接受那個是指日本"},{"start":3048.05,"end":3066.545,"text":"然後現行因為現在只有日本這樣的一個例可以來做評估但是實際上以我們所了解的程度以我們現在所評估的程度在兩年以後這個成本會大幅下降到四分之一"},{"start":3067.771,"end":3091.939,"text":"所以這個是符合我們在評估的部分我現在比較擔心的是說這個是不是先畫標靶然後再設建就是說你明明就已經決定一定要去菲律賓買綠墊了所以你才訂了這個目標價還是像卓院長講的說只要是合理的價錢不管來自哪裡你都會買"},{"start":3093.899,"end":3114.665,"text":"是這樣嗎?你是說是你目標一定要這樣做嗎?你說這個菲律賓...我是...沒有,我必須要講喔政府過去花了數千億投入這個綠能結果我們台灣現在還要向菲律賓買綠電然後這次是代表我們的能源政策失敗呢?"},{"start":3115.285,"end":3142.701,"text":"就台灣不是一直在強調能源轉型呢怎麼會轉到最後我們連自己的電都不夠還要去向菲律賓買電然後一直在想說能源要自主結果現在我們朝向進口電力這不是自相矛盾嗎不是現在的區域經濟學非常明確的告訴我們每一個國家它的要素餅富是不一樣的"},{"start":3144.168,"end":3155.995,"text":"這個經濟學只要懂的人都非常清楚這個是一個很明顯的自相矛盾之外難道台灣的企業未來還得靠等船運來才能用電"},{"start":3157.52,"end":3175.402,"text":"菲律賓本身它就是一個電網不穩定的國家常常發生停電台灣的能源安全卻要去依賴它部長你能夠保證這起交易不會成為下一個危機嗎你所談的這一個部分是目前的現象"},{"start":3176.343,"end":3191.933,"text":"我們經過可行性評估了解以後為什麼他電會那麼貴是他的電網費用非常的高但是至於他的這個深層的在放電的這個成本並沒有那麼高您是台灣的經濟部長不是菲律賓的經濟部長你不需要為菲律賓的這個電價現狀來做說明那我只想問不只是院長部長"},{"start":3199.398,"end":3213.443,"text":"其實全世界各國包括日本、韓國、歐洲都在重啟核電那來確保能源穩定的時候台灣卻寧可向菲律賓買綠電用船運來也不願意討論核能這樣子是為什麼呢?"},{"start":3220.045,"end":3243.992,"text":"這不是台灣寧可剛剛部長也說明了這是一個可行性的評估評估的內容包括很多種包括這個方式是否可行成本是否可行國內是否需要還有沒有其他的替代方式這個都在評估的過程所以這是一個過程當中我們認為很多的來源很多的方式都足以拿出來討論委員你如果認為有新的核能技術"},{"start":3244.972,"end":3268.598,"text":"可以讓台灣沒有核安的問題沒有核廢料的處理我們都可以來討論是 我覺得院長這樣子回答就相當理性但我必須要講就是說在部長發這麼多的時間金錢在評估菲律賓的綠電用船運來這件事的同時他是不是也要像院長講的一樣去同時可行性評估"},{"start":3272.739,"end":3273.399,"text":"報告委員 這些我們都有在評估"},{"start":3291.831,"end":3310.163,"text":"評估的進度為何為什麼到目前都沒有聽說我們只是一味的聽到說菲律賓買綠電我們怎麼都沒有看到經濟部有這個新聞稿對外說我們現在對於重啟核能的進度或者是研發這個新的核電技術的報告都沒有"},{"start":3310.983,"end":3333.901,"text":"這個都是我們平常的業務啦也就是說我們是多元的電力的這個必須要使用多元電力的國家所以您剛才所談的這個部分我們當然是都有在這個研討所以你可以看得出來我們雖然已經shut down了這個核電廠的人力但是我們人力都沒有變喔"},{"start":3336.563,"end":3357.41,"text":"我想這個電價的問題,可能院長跟部長都已經被問到滾瓜爛熟了,但我還是必須再問一次,就是請問我們台灣的核能發電一度電是多少?目前它因為大部分的折舊已經折完了,所以它的一度電大概是在接近兩塊錢,"},{"start":3359.499,"end":3368.504,"text":"1.4塊所以我就想要代表民眾問院長跟部長我們台灣放著一度電1.4塊的電不用我們要用4塊、5塊、6塊、7塊、8塊甚至一度買11.1塊的電"},{"start":3378.258,"end":3389.588,"text":"那這樣子台電當然要困險啊我接下來也想想問院長請問今年是不是要再漲電價是不是要再漲電價"},{"start":3396.667,"end":3407.439,"text":"店家當然是店家審議委員會啊那店家審議委員會開會的時候他也會收集各方的資料包括社會包括民生也包括台電的財務狀況那這個就是他們去討論的內容"},{"start":3410.888,"end":3428.026,"text":"這就是本席想要問院長的院長您知道台電現在的財務狀況嗎你知道他目前虧損多少錢嗎幾乎到達4300億左右了沒錯4229億就代表說就算我們今年再撥補那1000億"},{"start":3429.688,"end":3450.561,"text":"台電還是虧損啊所以為什麼會覺得說我們三年撥補了他三千億假設今年再撥補他一千億四千億也彌補不了他的虧損甚至還要漲電價所以我想強調兩點第一台電並沒有因為政府撥補就不漲電價第二台電並沒有因為政府撥補或漲電價就停止虧損院長"},{"start":3459.836,"end":3462.281,"text":"台電不虧損的原因大家都知道"},{"start":3464.017,"end":3492.656,"text":"戰爭的原因有料上漲補貼的政策這個我們不需要重複了那我們1000億的撥補不是要讓他的解決他的財務問題只是讓他的財務能夠健全一點他少支出一些資本的成本利息能夠減輕一些那麼讓他能夠減輕這方面的負擔那麼就不需要去考慮調整或是調整太大幅度的各項電費是做這樣的平衡而已那如果反過來想"},{"start":3496.62,"end":3508.331,"text":"你怎麼不支一千億撥補民眾來付漲的電價呢意思是一樣的嘛因為這筆錢都要到台電啊但是感覺不一樣啊"},{"start":3510.177,"end":3527.771,"text":"電表不一定每個人都背在身上有的有用到電有的就沒有用到電表雖然每個人都會用到電但電表不一定那我們怎麼去計算對這個人他如果沒有再付電費的時候他就沒有收到錢是我理解但是呢我必須要講現在有很多消息都傳出說這個電價審議委員會這一次喔"},{"start":3532.154,"end":3546.729,"text":"這一次這就是我在講的說雖然部長、院長都說這個店家審議委員會會決定可是其實呢政府還是有決策的這個角色那大家這個小道消息都傳出來說"},{"start":3548.33,"end":3573.559,"text":"可能連330度以下的民生用電跟小商家的用電都會調漲那用電大戶可能會漲更多那現在所有的百姓所有的這些民眾大家都在關注所以院長是否可以藉今天告訴大家說這次漲電價是否勢在必行那漲幅有可能在什麼樣的range之內"},{"start":3575.356,"end":3597.179,"text":"我們還是考慮到它的成本的反應市場的穩定還有民生的穩定還有能夠使用者付費還要提倡節約能源這幾項原則底下那目前你說的那個多少度數以上以下如何調整至少我這裡還沒有看到現在送來的任何報告所以我們也沒有任何的討論"},{"start":3599.655,"end":3612.884,"text":"目前其實全面漲電價央行就已經說了會造成今年的CPI會破2%的警戒線聽說院長也指示經濟部也要討論水費調漲的方案民眾要面臨的已經不是電價可能會漲可能水費也要漲這等於是水電雙漲"},{"start":3628.554,"end":3642.227,"text":"院長您有考慮過這對一般小家庭的衝擊嗎當然所以我們很慎重因為水價幾乎是30年沒有調30年沒有調過那現在這個水價是非常的低的"},{"start":3643.388,"end":3661.099,"text":"也一方面要鼓勵大家能夠節約珍惜這個水資源那也要反映現在每一度水處理的成本那合理的調整是在考慮當中但時機是還沒有決定我們當然希望能夠降低衝擊能夠平衡一點在整個年度當中不要"},{"start":3664.983,"end":3680.701,"text":"這就是本席想要提醒院長的真的水電雙長的話對於一般小家庭的衝擊太大了一定要去考量說這個苦民所苦啊他們的這個一般的生活已經很辛苦了水電雙長那是整個"},{"start":3682.483,"end":3706.218,"text":"打到腦門子上非常非常的嚴重那另外我也想提醒一下郭部長郭部長我當然知道你有很多雄心壯志但是你知道水電衝擊衝擊的可能不只是民眾還有可能是你個人因為通常有一些慣例就是年終有可能會換隔園有可能會異動那調整這些民生費用可能會變成"},{"start":3707.919,"end":3735.387,"text":"你要扛下來的責任也有可能是要替換這個格緣的原因所以呢我也希望說這件事情搞不好也會變成你畢業的理由那我當然提醒你啦這個人民最關心的倒不是誰來當官而是自己的生活開銷會不會因此而提高那我在這裡也希望說當然我們政府"},{"start":3736.047,"end":3763.279,"text":"能夠提供企業穩定用電然後民眾合理的電價讓我們國家在競爭力上面尤其你看我們的最大的這個可能競爭對手韓國他都宣布說在2038年之前他要再蓋四座核能發電廠那我們未來的競爭力在哪裡我們不是還要發展AI嗎我們不是還要發展更多的晶圓廠嗎那電力來源到底在哪裡"},{"start":3765.987,"end":3781.215,"text":"我跟委員報告我們會非常審慎的來觀察民生的穩定我個人認為郭部長我不期待他只是一位水電部長他是掌握國家經濟發展的經濟部長這個才是他的正職"},{"start":3782.677,"end":3807.392,"text":"我們共同期待但我必須要提醒說假設在重啟核能或者是研發新的這個核電技術上那政府如果消極的話立法院就要積極核管法的修正從上個會期就在討論那未來修正通過之後我們就可以跟國際接軌讓核電研議那我也希望說這個部分院長能夠大力的支持"},{"start":3809.687,"end":3826.446,"text":"院長能夠支持嗎如果立法院修正通過之後行政院是不是還要再提復議我再說說明只要是合乎憲法的規定而且經過充分的討論民主的程序我也來自立法院對立法院的尊重"},{"start":3827.247,"end":3849.935,"text":"我跟歷任的院長都一樣好 謝謝院長那我接下來想要問有關於這個農業部針對農保資格大規模清查的這件事情不曉得院長知不知道這個農業部最近在清查這個農保資格是 我聽這好像他們的一般的業務之一嘛請部長說明"},{"start":3850.655,"end":3876.531,"text":"我跟委員報告這次農保清查不是說第一次我們持續都有清查然後是根據監察院審計部要求來清查有關於天然災害領埔的跟農保地的差異所以你農業部並沒有主動想要清查的意思是嗎都是別人逼你的意思嗎我們的清查就是例行上都有清查因為農保就是一種從事農業工作的在職的社會保障"},{"start":3877.131,"end":3899.379,"text":"所以現在其實呢您開始清查之後讓基層的農民可以說是人心惶惶大家都非常的害怕部分農民可能面臨失去農保資格的風險那他一生耕耘那麼認真那麼辛苦風雨無阻地種植糧食然後養活這麼多的人民結果今天"},{"start":3900.419,"end":3912.604,"text":"可能他們年老體衰因為配合很多政府的政策被告知說你不再是農民了你的農保資格取消了請問部長你覺得這樣對得起為台灣農業奉獻一輩子的農民嗎我要跟委員報告就是我們這次的清查是在65歲以下的我們並沒有針對65歲以上的農民來做清查"},{"start":3926.69,"end":3946.233,"text":"另外一個方式就是65歲以上的農民他即使把地租出去他的農保地不需要到一分地這些你在講我都知道我不是不知道但是你要想假設是65歲以前那更可憐"},{"start":3948.066,"end":3964.462,"text":"那就代表說他以後可能領不到老農年金了他就不符合老農年金的資格了那影響不是比你清查65歲以下的還大嗎我要跟委員說明他如果沒有農地他就沒有從事農業當初他們配合政府政策說你把電租出給光電業者"},{"start":3971.929,"end":3995.567,"text":"或者您每天在講的一期二轉三加三裡面是不是鼓勵小地主把地都租給大電農這個部分怎麼辦我跟委員說明漁電共生一個非常重要的前提就是以農為本綠能是加值的所以他還是要從事農業我不是說我不是只有針對農漁電共生我是針對整體的綠能政策嘛那這個部分"},{"start":4001.531,"end":4010.046,"text":"很多農民也許住在台北或都市的百姓會覺得哇 你農民怎麼這麼貪心啊你又要租金 然後你又要這個保險"},{"start":4011.707,"end":4035.246,"text":"他們真的不是貪心他們是真的不知道他們的權益受損我希望部長能夠站在這些農民的角色其實呢我真的是對事不對人啊我也知道說部長是一個很認真的這個工作在這個很認真的官員可是呢我必須要講你不能整天"},{"start":4036.087,"end":4060.42,"text":"把你的精神都用在跟立法委員都用在跟立法委員爭辯我們提出的這個需求是真的來自地方基層他們需要我不是希望說我今天鬥嘴贏過你我也不是希望說今天政治鬥爭我能贏過你我是希望說你要站在"},{"start":4061.44,"end":4088.102,"text":"他們的立場來幫助他們啊 幫助這些農民啊否則這些農民 我告訴你 他接到公文他真的是跑到農會去問我跟你說 那是晴天霹靂 他欲哭無淚那這些真的無助的農民 院長你覺得他應該怎麼辦嗎我跟委員說明沒有 我問院長 院長這些無助的農民怎麼辦農委會沒有要back up他們農委會沒有要支持他們現行的政策是 你土地 農民的土地"},{"start":4088.792,"end":4106.321,"text":"出租給業者進行光電的合作只要他還有從事農業的生產是不會影響到任何農民的權益但你如果完全都把它放棄了跟我們現在的政策是有所不符那我必須在這裡跟這個院長還有部長講其實呢"},{"start":4110.29,"end":4131.426,"text":"我不知道是不是農業部裡面有一些官員說實在是相當的冷血有很多農會幫這些農民在陳情、在說明的時候你知道嗎?我只是不希望今天把它秀出來我覺得實在是太心酸了"},{"start":4133.434,"end":4150.789,"text":"那個計政就直接跟那個農會講啊他說他都已經可以領老農年金了他沒有領上上補助費反正他死了也領不到這種話說得出口你覺得這有把農民放在心上嗎說這種話的官員如果是有官員說這種話是不對的我想我們會針對"},{"start":4152.33,"end":4179.975,"text":"這些可能的這些有疑慮的我們會逐一的去了解而且能夠幫忙他確保農保的身份這是第一要件所以他未來是一定是一個個案的實際的去審查是所以部長我真心的在這裡呼籲你真的放下那些政治鬥爭的心放下那些只想要到罪過的心我們一起來為農民爭取他們的權益守護他們你做得到嗎"},{"start":4180.655,"end":4195.247,"text":"我想我覺得做得到 如果很多外界的那個批評是真實的 我們一定虛心接受如果它是一個錯假的話 我們一定會做一個澄清各位 我們在農漁的合作上面 我始終強調農漁優先 農漁優先"},{"start":4199.793,"end":4214.421,"text":"官員有沒有剛剛委員有講的那一段話我們要告訴官員講這段話是不對的是要告訴官員不可以講這種的話嚴厲的要求農業優先是政府永遠不變的定律"},{"start":4215.249,"end":4232.833,"text":"謝謝因為真的他們是非常弱勢的一名他們根本是沒有辦法去理解他們的權益在哪裡他們失去了他們權益他們也求助無門所以今天我必須代表農漁民在這裡轉達他們的心聲幫他們澄清那我也在這裡懇求院長漁店農店"},{"start":4236.874,"end":4263.979,"text":"一定要動漲假設今年再漲店家的話我們農業的用電漁業的用電一定要比照去年喔繼續動漲可不可以拜託院長因為很多大企業說實在你漲店家你只是傷他的皮膚你只是傷他的皮毛可是如果你漲我們農業的用電你漲我們漁業的用電我們有很多農家子弟很多農民的下一代他可能下個學期他就繳不起學費了今年呢"},{"start":4266.621,"end":4281.046,"text":"如何會不會漲還是電價生意委員會但是過去有漲農業部我們都有電價補貼可以讓他的負擔減輕很多我跟委員報告就是就算電價有槓農業部會針對這個差價的部分做補貼這樣以今年來講我們就補貼了25億"},{"start":4285.77,"end":4309.476,"text":"是謝謝那我再一次呼籲希望說這個農保的審查能夠放寬能夠真的搞不好可以重新再怎麼樣來調整讓這些可能受到傷害或者是有危險的就是有風險的有失去農保風險的這些農民可以有補健的機會有補救的機會這一點部長可以承諾嗎"},{"start":4310.216,"end":4331.871,"text":"我們一直在這樣做就是在農會在審查的時候我們會個案如果他有一些可以補件的部分可以修正的部分我們會盡量來協助但本席擔心的是可能部裡面只有部長這樣想不會你下面的人多嚴格你知道嗎我有多少的例子你知道嗎我會特別的要求我支持部長審查當然要據實"},{"start":4333.312,"end":4356.269,"text":"一定要展現我們對農民關懷的溫暖給他們一點寬容而且從人性的角度來關懷農民關懷漁民這個一定要統領下去所有的同仁一定要這樣做到拜託院長了 也拜託部長那接下來因為時間也剩不多我想要問一下部長有關於我們斗六這個鐵路高架化"},{"start":4363.479,"end":4387.047,"text":"我們這個斗六市雲林縣的行政中心那市區內的鐵路貫穿有九處的平交道每年發生多起的事故那不僅威脅了人民的生命安全那也嚴重影響了我們的城市發展那形成一個長久以來的一個瓶頸那攸關雲林縣的重要建設早在這個"},{"start":4389.509,"end":4411.17,"text":"11年3月17就通過了交通部的鐵道局的初審經歷了多次的審查上次本席也在這裡問過您終於在6月解決了1.曲率半徑2.效益評估3.臨時平交道的三大關卡已經送進去交通部審查了然而過去了9個月"},{"start":4413.772,"end":4435.653,"text":"原地踏步毫無進展那去年十月呢我也向卓院長詢問過此案的進度那我想要知道說就是這樣的拖延究竟是有什麼有行政帶拓呢還是有其他的考量是否有具體的時程因為等六人已經等了三十年了還要再等多久院長"},{"start":4438.588,"end":4460.559,"text":"目前的程序上面其實您剛剛所說的都是正確那現在因為他這個路線不佳跟重波不佳的原因我們還在做研究當中因為重波不佳會影響到未來的整體的安全性還有就是他整個爬坡的那個耗損性那這個部分其實會是長期的影響我們希望把這個問題先解決完之後我們再進入下一個步驟當然我知道委員"},{"start":4461.439,"end":4471.443,"text":"一直在爭取啦地方上的委員大家都在爭取斗六的這個鐵道的高價化那我們會積極來推動不過現在工程上面的問題我覺得你剛剛就講到重點了就是這個是安全的問題喔就是"},{"start":4476.384,"end":4503.396,"text":"根據了解本案內環橋路段設計的坡度是千分之十四點八七然後完全符合你這個交通部鐵道局軌道工程設計的注意事項規定的最大坡度不得超過千分之二十五那這個整個本案的線型調整跟設計早就跟台鐵公司充分協商並取得同意符合這個專業標準"},{"start":4505.157,"end":4516.524,"text":"那為什麼交通部在這個月又推翻了這個設計導致這個計畫遲遲無法推動呢我們的審議委員如果有提出不一樣的意見的時候我們都必須要審慎去面對"},{"start":4518.069,"end":4542.048,"text":"我必須要說的是鐵道高加化這個是很長遠的一個建設如果要做就要把它做好所以我們現在也正在研議說該用什麼樣的方法我現在比較擔心的是是不是有選舉考量難道是因為本席上任不到半年就解決了這個卡關30年的問題導致有人刻意從中作梗然後阻礙斗六的發展"},{"start":4542.828,"end":4562.026,"text":"把自己的利益放在民眾跟國家的利益之上包委員 這個是專業的工程上面的問題跟選舉其實不會有任何關係我願意放心 不會有選舉的考量不會有政黨的考量不會有個人的考量真的 我也不希望是我個人的原因也不希望是選舉的原因不希望是政治的原因"},{"start":4562.426,"end":4582.773,"text":"希望真的站在這個百姓的立場所以這一點我得到這個院長跟部長的承諾那假設部長說要講專業我就提幾個案子因為部長也是來自台中嘛那台中的鐵路高降化的計畫它的全線波度是介於一點千分之一點八跟"},{"start":4584.013,"end":4612.734,"text":"時期那所以其實台中包括這個大慶車站立體交會處的波度是達到千分之十七是高於斗六的那為什麼至今已經營運多年也沒有任何問題那斗六其實設計的波度更小更安全卻能被卡關呢因為斗六這邊這個問題應該是可以解決的我們目前也在研議當中所以這個解決的方案應該很快就出來"},{"start":4613.587,"end":4629.714,"text":"是 拜託部長了因為競速我想相同的專業問題不可能也不應該有不同的結果怎麼會相同的這個波度甚至更小當初台中可以結果我們斗六不可以"},{"start":4631.174,"end":4650.633,"text":"這個就是會讓人家有不好的一個聯想所以這一點我一定要特別拜託院長拜託部長30年的等待有多少家庭因為交通事故然後被毀了有多少地方發展因為受限只能無奈限縮我們看到其他的城市"},{"start":4659.045,"end":4685.671,"text":"好 謝謝張家軍委員質詢 謝謝卓院長跟部會首長的備詢接下來我們請登記第31號林楚英委員請質詢謝謝主席 主席有請卓院長好 麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":4695.257,"end":4715.786,"text":"院長早 院長辛苦了本席今天要針對國家安全的議題來跟您請問我們知道昨天有一個非常重要的國際論壇那就是玉山論壇那麼玉山論壇當中我們看到許多民主友邦都提出了針對現在全球受到威權國家逼近那麼其實民主陣線是應該要站在一起的"},{"start":4716.266,"end":4726.675,"text":"那我們來看到就是昨天AIT的這個處長古麗妍也特別提到賴總統就打擊中國長期以來的間諜和影響力的行動所提出之倡議"},{"start":4728.342,"end":4752.648,"text":"那麼接下來其實我們就可以有機會美國跟台灣有進一步的合作其實這樣的說法剛好切合了日前我們賴清德總統特別去定調那麼中國就是所謂的敵對勢力而且呢中國對於台灣的威脅不論是統戰或是國安的方方面面其實他也具體地點出了包括主權的威脅間諜行動還有就是透過這個交流以及認知作戰等等"},{"start":4758.149,"end":4781.92,"text":"但是滿可惜的是昨天在野黨最主要的在野黨就是國民黨竟然說這個賴總統所說的這個幫中國定位為所謂的敵對勢力讓人民陷於危險之中因此他們要發動所謂的反戒嚴公投請問院長你怎麼看自助人助也會得到天助"},{"start":4788.379,"end":4794.411,"text":"這個就完全展示我們對於防衛我們自己的決心負責跟我們的信心"},{"start":4795.424,"end":4823.743,"text":"很多友邦或友門國家當他考慮到要維持印太地區是台海的和平穩定的時候台灣當然是最關鍵的一個角色跟地位這種戰略地位我們自己要認清楚也因為這個樣子我們更要珍惜我們在這裡所做的各種努力至於外交的工作我想部長做得非常的好做得非常辛苦但是成就就一直展現出來那請部長來說明一下現在外交對我們的協助"},{"start":4825.864,"end":4848.207,"text":"部長回答之前我想先問院長啦所以你認為台灣現在戒嚴了嗎?需要反戒嚴公投嗎?剛剛說過在國內的政黨只有中國國民黨有戒嚴的經驗或許只有他不知道戒嚴的痛苦目前的台灣沒有戒嚴的時空任何條件所以我說他是在一個黑暗的房間裡面找一隻不存在的黑貓"},{"start":4849.087,"end":4872.855,"text":"好 所以說其實台灣如果有戒嚴那還有哪裡來的公投其實我認為這個完全是邏輯錯亂本末倒置我們來看下一張喔那麼其實這個昨天這個假日啊這個民眾看到我們的卓院長揮出光劍希望帶台灣持續向前我先來問一個輕鬆的話題其實蠻多網友都問說光劍哪裡來的"},{"start":4876.636,"end":4895.923,"text":"也有在野黨說預算都刪工了居然還有光劍可以買院長還是有社會正義人士可以把這個他專屬的光劍借給我們用謝謝這位馬可多大師好所以說是有大師出借專業人士出借希望我們拿的光劍是"},{"start":4897.082,"end":4917.312,"text":"自由與我們同在 民主與我們同在好 正義的原理會與台灣同在但是我知道這個口號國家要安全 台灣要向前我真的覺得非常的重要本席特別整理了就是現在中國滲透的樣態包括在退降裡面吸引退降主親中的政黨"},{"start":4918.713,"end":4938.951,"text":"國軍裡面有透過地下權裝來吸引國軍來做訊息的交換甚至於洩密在媒體裡面現在有所謂的在地協力者協助中國的榮媒體來做唱和在產業裡面現在媒體也報導了甚至於在華碩工會裡面有中配在裡頭宣揚統戰"},{"start":4941.733,"end":4970.319,"text":"甚至於連武統都在所不惜那至於僑界有最新的訊息媒體也報導了就是統戰的勢力已經滲透了海外僑社跟中國的組織在做聯動昨天我質詢習家青委員長的時候也特別提到了在海外雙十國慶現在變成是中國也要滲透結合抗戰勝利八十週年這種荒謬的言論另外當然金融界"},{"start":4970.839,"end":4989.379,"text":"也有所謂的科技的滲透所以我想問一下就是面對這種全方位的滲透總統也宣示了就是要來做正面的因應的時候那麼行政院有跨部會的因應嗎除了國安會議之外"},{"start":4990.31,"end":5015.729,"text":"我在當時開會的時候我就說我們會要求所有相關的所有的部會一定要列專案來執行而且我會要求要定期的考核 限期的完成所以我們這個禮拜就會開始相關的作業我希望在一定的時間內把17項內容有關的各部會都要訂定出一個未來執行的計畫而且能夠看到它執行的時間"},{"start":5016.55,"end":5041.527,"text":"好 謝謝這個院長非常明確的答覆就是其實我們這個整個內閣是這個光劍一出要對這個所謂中國的滲透必須要有所作為那下一張我們來看的就是其實我剛剛最後一個提到有關於金融面的問題我不知道院長是不是知道在前一陣子媒體特別報導了有一個"},{"start":5043.427,"end":5069.91,"text":"從中國的財政部底下進入先持股進入國家的中小企業發展基金這個國家是中國的財政部中國的國家然後再往下到了深圳國中小企業發展私募基金然後這一間公司呢它雖然號稱是新加坡的公司然後來台灣開此公司"},{"start":5070.951,"end":5100.359,"text":"那麼現在會不會是另外一個就是我們知道資安及國安金融的安全更為重要那麼就是台灣的業者如果跟這間新加坡的公司來他的所謂信用卡的核心關鍵技術那麼會不會變成是一個中國滲透進入台灣的一個方法甚至於成為一個樣板我不知道院長知不知道這樣的一個個案跟案例"},{"start":5107.351,"end":5124.375,"text":"其實我們在金融監理上面對任何比如說我們金融機構委外我們是不限國家地區我們是全面的有要求他們必須針對這些自動安全的系統有一些規範特別是高風險的地區我們更是要求他們要做"},{"start":5124.975,"end":5153.463,"text":"像這件事情發生以後我們也全面的去了解國內的金融機構相關的這些的他們執行我們也加強了金融機構的一些安全的這些的控管希望他們能夠持續的把這些強化好所以說目前現在來自新加坡號稱是新加坡但是背後是有中資的影子帶的這樣的一個公司本來要進入台灣的信用卡系統目前"},{"start":5154.983,"end":5183.324,"text":"還會持續進入嗎?還是其實金管會已經做了一些必要的措施?其實跟委員說明一下其實這件事情呢我們立刻就請他一定要務必要這個清查背後的這些的問題而且他們這個系統根本沒有上線就是而且我們要求說這有沒有資安的風險不是你自己說了算你必須找第三方的公正他們也做出了這樣的一個查核發於這個系統並沒有相關的後門安全但是呢"},{"start":5183.744,"end":5197.168,"text":"這件事情他沒有上線所以這個部分應該是被阻缺這家公司的背後的關係系統經濟部已經相當有了解我們請郭部長我想新加坡"},{"start":5199.734,"end":5219.515,"text":"類似任何科技這些是不是入資公司經濟部經過調查以後確定新加坡商任何科技公司是具有入資控制力的確實為入資公司所以我們將依兩岸條例第93條之一的規定處以新台幣217萬元的發援"},{"start":5222.844,"end":5233.549,"text":"好 所以言下之意確實背後是有中資的影子在裡面我們都知道其實台灣的金融是高度尖利這樣的一間公司我們來看下一張"},{"start":5235.094,"end":5261.325,"text":"他本身他的合作夥伴就通通都是來自於中國那麼當他來自於中國的時候很可能台灣就是他的下一塊想要前進的部分所以在金融如何來避免所謂非紅供應鏈我們知道我們現在在基礎建設我們在國防安全的部分其實都已經開始強調要去除紅色供應鏈"},{"start":5262.205,"end":5280.232,"text":"但是在金融系統裡面呢因為其實本席特別去找到2019年其實也發生過受險系統受險的核心系統採用到了中國的相關的技術跟系統所以這個部分"},{"start":5281.567,"end":5302.059,"text":"它並不是一個偶發事件它其實是一個整體的親融國安的部分所以本席就要請問不論是郭部長或者是彭主委我們在親融系統上面我們的IT防範上面如何來避免紅色供應鏈的入侵現在有個方法嗎比如說這一次這個案子恐怕"},{"start":5302.879,"end":5317.473,"text":"如果他在申請的時候他是以設立公司那麼設立公司我們可能就不一定會經過投審會的相關的審查而且當時業者也說勘查這一間所謂任何科技它並沒有在我們所謂的"},{"start":5318.735,"end":5334.797,"text":"紅色供應商裡面所以他就認為他是安全的那麼接下來我們既然發現了這個問題之後想請問部長或是主委有沒有一個方式能夠保障台灣金融系統的安全是跟委員說明"},{"start":5335.327,"end":5363.759,"text":"其實我們在過去我們是不限國家地區我們本來就定有金融機構支通系統服務供應鏈風險管理的規範這部分而且我們也會收集相關的案例特別對這些高風險我們已經開始會採取這些動作像這次為例其實我覺得他們警覺性剛開始確實是需要被強化但是我覺得這件事情從表面上來看可能就是我們未來金融業我們要特別透過這個案例呢告訴他們要特別的強化在我剛才"},{"start":5364.259,"end":5372.365,"text":"要跟委員特別強調我們在經管這個這部分有兩個重點一個是資安一個是只要任何碰觸到客戶資料的部分我們都會"},{"start":5372.952,"end":5396.688,"text":"做更嚴格的管理謝謝好最後本席要建議這個院長那就是喔當我來跟業者詢問的時候他會提到的是他們其實是找不到合適的廠商來做合作那我們都知道台灣是IT大國科技大國如果一個信用卡的系統又或者是受險的系統當我們找不到國內MIT的廠商的時候當然國外的"},{"start":5400.09,"end":5419.557,"text":"其他非中國的國家非紅色供應鏈如果有價格的問題的時候是不是也可以請數位部應該來做一個整合我相信台灣應該做得出來信用卡等所謂資訊相關需要的系統或者是受險所謂保障客戶的這種系統是不是"},{"start":5420.057,"end":5441.322,"text":"是應該的 我們會請跨部會來互相的協助當金融單位有這樣的需求的時候我也請主委來協調 跨部會來協助提供必要的資源廠商這樣才能確保我們的資通案的安全好 那因為時間有限我想要跳到我的最後一張PTT那就是我們知道現在有許多的這些公民團體在發起"},{"start":5443.442,"end":5450.045,"text":"他們屬於自己的罷免權但是從二階的罷免開始其實從一階開始之後不斷地陸續有出現騷擾的行為"},{"start":5456.524,"end":5476.756,"text":"從3月17號我開始整理這樣一系列一直到去年其實要不就是支持者打人說我是中國人我來鬧場甚至於有志工在路上發禪單就被揮拳然後被當頭K頭然後甚至於是有抄著中國口音的人來鬧場"},{"start":5479.198,"end":5507.997,"text":"我覺得這是蠻諷刺的啦就是中國連自己的總統都選不出來但是呢卻在台灣滋事那到底他是真的中國人還是台灣人假扮中國人這個恐怕是要由相關的執法單位來做說明但是我要請院長回應的就是台灣是一個自由民主而且受到法律保障的國家雖然國民黨昨天他們在所謂發起"},{"start":5509.558,"end":5529.169,"text":"公投罷免提案的時候他說要反廢死要還命於民啊但是我們剛剛羅烈看到的這些都是國民黨的支持者我是蠻想呼籲國民黨還命於民之前要不要先還安全於人民難道說台灣民眾自發性的發起他們要"},{"start":5530.049,"end":5554.721,"text":"展現他們的罷免權卻要被國民黨的支持者來痛打又或者是自稱中國人在台灣這片土地來毆打我們的台灣民眾嗎我覺得這個部分講到這裡我非常的憤怒我也認為院長應該要做一些說明好 政府的責任在保障每一位國民合法行使他國民的參政權利"},{"start":5556.055,"end":5570.371,"text":"政府的責任也在保障每一場合法的活動所有到場的人人身安全如果有這種滋擾的事件那麼要求我們的警政單位檢調單位一定要負起責任部長在這裡請部長來說明"},{"start":5571.032,"end":5598.287,"text":"是非常謝謝委員的關心我們已經三令五申包括警政署對於有關安全的部分一定要馬上處理那我們也鼓勵各種罷免的活動合法罷免活動的志工如果有碰到這樣狀況的話能夠拍照或是錄音錄影然後到現地的派出所馬上報案那我們依照相關的規定馬上來辦理確保在所有的公民活動上面的安全好謝謝辛苦了"},{"start":5599.857,"end":5624.967,"text":"好 謝謝林楚瑩委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢接下來我們請登記第32號黃建豪委員請質詢好 院長好 我們請行政院卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":5636.219,"end":5655.85,"text":"本席其實一直長期的關心我們行政院對於性別平等政策的一些政策那從過去頒布的行政院性別平等政策綱領到去年行政院公布的性平數的考核有11個部會連續兩年列以等或不列等我想說我們其實對這個性別議題是非常的重視"},{"start":5656.61,"end":5674.082,"text":"那我想昨天有一個新聞有一個時事啊因為沒有放PPT上我跟院長直接報告院長你也有注意到昨天一個新聞就是這個執政黨的總召啊他是認為說媽媽就應該回去當家庭主婦那我不知道說院長你對於這樣子的言論或這樣子的看法你有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":5675.182,"end":5702.552,"text":"對不起媽媽應該回媽媽就應該回歸家庭當家庭主婦昨天有一位這個執政黨的立法院黨團總召在開記者會的時候針對了台中市長盧秀燕嘛因為盧秀燕市長的這個綽號大家都叫盧媽媽媽媽市長那所以柯建民總召就說這個媽媽就應該回歸家庭回去當家庭主婦我不知道院長有沒有掌握到這個新聞那他講這樣的話院長你對於這樣的性別議題這樣的性別議事有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":5704.779,"end":5723.025,"text":"這或許是柯總召對他母親的愛的回憶吧我的確這麼說啦我說每個人媽媽的定義不一樣有的媽媽對他母親就是這樣的感覺他說他不一定是在這個這個女性表現這麼優異的時候所有的時代但是我們不能剝奪一個人他對他媽媽的"},{"start":5724.389,"end":5740.028,"text":"沒錯 那你覺得他可以指涉別人別人的媽媽去做別的什麼事情嗎他有權去定義別人的母親別人的媽媽應該扮演什麼樣的角色嗎那我在問柯總統他有在指涉哪一位他有講他指名道姓啊他指名道姓是魯秀妍啊"},{"start":5740.626,"end":5754.451,"text":"那我要講說今天我想問針對性別議題我想這邊也有資料啦因為行政院過去提供給本席的包含各部會3D機關所屬的委員會政府捐助或出資超過50%的財團法人及國民事業董事與監視性別比例的相關資料"},{"start":5758.832,"end":5786.986,"text":"我今天特別提出來我也是要提醒院長以行政院本院的這個達成所謂的三分之一的單一性別的比例來講的話行政院本院的達成率只有43.24%所以我想在這個數據上面我想還是差強人意所以我也希望藉由這個事件來提醒說我們行政院作為這個國家一級行政機關應該要以身作則把這樣的性別議題要重視我想"},{"start":5787.546,"end":5811.013,"text":"如果院長願意帶頭重視的話那我想我們的民意代表們就比較不容易去做這樣的發言好不好 院長謝謝委員的提醒我也常常自己在提醒自己我們有所不足的地方那麼一定要按照我們過去所說以及我們應該做的要來盡快的逐步達到好 謝謝院長 我們一起為性別一點的努力啦好 那接下來我們進入今天的主題我想"},{"start":5811.673,"end":5822.098,"text":"院長看到最近的新聞提到說不只電價我想水價好像也在討論說要來調漲那台水公司的意思是目前看到新聞稿說現在每賣一度電會虧2.45元2024年的稅後虧損39.49億那2025年"},{"start":5827.521,"end":5844.193,"text":"預估今年會再虧損59.3億那合計起來將近會虧損100億所以可能有在討論說水價要調漲那我要請教說其實我們從這個台水公司2024年公布的永續報告書裡面來看到其實在這個2019年到2023年的損益表裡面"},{"start":5846.394,"end":5875.273,"text":"在2019到2022年這段時間我想台水公司的這個損益這個虧損並沒有明顯的上升是直到2022年到2023年之後才產生嚴重的虧損那甚至2023年2024年跟近年預計的2025年都會有虧損的問題我想問一下我們院長也可以請教一下部長到底為什麼水公司在這幾年的這兩三年的虧損突然的增加那增加之後是不是真的要調漲水價"},{"start":5879.259,"end":5891.337,"text":"這幾年我們因為有一些新的作為包括再生水的製造 包括一些海水氮化廠海水氮化廠以目前為止 譬如以澎湖為例"},{"start":5892.08,"end":5921.534,"text":"我們要照顧這個澎湖的這個居民所以我們賣給他的水價是全國統一的但是我們的製造的這個成本是差不多將近10倍所以因為這個需求這個極端氣候的改變讓我們現在的這個氣候變化非常的大但是我們我想院長體恤所有的國人的這個水跟電的價格所以水價我們到目前為止31年都沒有漲過這我知道"},{"start":5922.054,"end":5950.066,"text":"那我們的這個成本現在的成本因為改變很多海水淡化或者這個水資源的投入這個成本就升高了那麼導致於我們台水公司在這幾年成本確實因為這個氣候改變然後我們要維持這個當大家喝到好的水沒關係 我請教一下我也請教一下院長安部長像比如說海水淡化廠那還有包含說我們各地的這些水利工程"},{"start":5950.987,"end":5973.429,"text":"這個預算到底是用水公司的錢在做還是用政府的公務預算在執行我們的這個水公司當然有配合工程但我說錢從哪裡出比如你剛提到像海水淡化廠或者是我們各地的淨水廠或者是我們這些輸水的這些管線"},{"start":5974.736,"end":5989.031,"text":"各地的水利工程相關的這個費用這一部分很大的部分當然是公共建設但是接管回來以後變成是我們台水要配合他"},{"start":5990.152,"end":6014.909,"text":"一樣要付出很高的成本我們現在的水基本上那個海水進來的可能是公共建設但是進到我台水的水處理廠以後的成本是屬於我台水的我大概處理一噸的水要七八十塊錢但是我只能賣十塊錢這個是我們非常大的負擔"},{"start":6016.63,"end":6039.218,"text":"那現在因為我還是跟委員報告因為極端氣候嘛所以那個水什麼時候會下大雨什麼時候我們現在又不能夠去抽取地下水所以這個造成我們這個成本非常的高我要打斷你一下不好意思喔就是說其實你提到極端氣候但是我們看到這兩年的水情啊就我剛剛提到的過去從2019到2022年中年還發生過乾旱喔但是2019到2022年這段時間台水公司的這個財報裡面看起來的虧損是不嚴重的"},{"start":6045.7,"end":6072.551,"text":"或是幾乎沒有虧損但是反而到2022年之後我想降雨都非常穩定嘛每年都我看經濟部臉書也常講說今年的這個水庫沒問題中部沒問題南部沒問題水水沒問題那但是在這種情況下面水需要調漲我想民眾沒辦法理解啦所以我是不是可以請你們再說明一下到底哪個部分的成本增加了所以你們必須調漲增加我們一開始譬如說這個水管老舊送水的部分所以我們要更新嘛"},{"start":6073.211,"end":6088.626,"text":"不更新的話突然間這個水管爆了啦年久失修的部分其實還蠻多的啦所以我們水價沒有辦法調整我們的成本不斷的在增加我們要維護讓我們的所有的國人用水方便水龍頭整個就有水這樣這是興奮很大的事情"},{"start":6091.329,"end":6113.156,"text":"所以麻煩這個大院能夠同意我們當我們如果能夠提出來這個水能夠調整價格那讓大家能夠隨時就能夠喝到好的水隨時要用水方便的話其實我們現在這個水價確實是偏低的好沒關係我們就等你們的報告啦因為我想台水這樣進去的這個大家說明人事也會增加"},{"start":6114.416,"end":6136.761,"text":"設備的更新 設備的維護 設備的採購都會增加那我們現在一度水 平均下來一度水是十塊錢一度水是一公噸一公噸是一千CC的一千瓶再十塊錢 確實是便宜了如果合理的調整對員工的試劑以及鼓勵大家節約用水應該有正面的拜託院長謝謝 院長我想在調整水價之前我想"},{"start":6137.461,"end":6166.337,"text":"因為目前還沒有看到詳細的報告我想也還在擬定當中我想希望你們要跟國人交代清楚為什麼這兩年就我剛提到的2022年之後反而虧損增加到底哪個環節出問題我想這是希望我們會做詳細的說明明確說明那當然水價談完之後當然大家最關注的還是即將來的電價上漲的原因電價上漲我想這個原因在講說是國際燃料價格大漲但是我們看到這個全球的這些這個能源價格的費用我想這兩年"},{"start":6166.997,"end":6193.177,"text":"烏俄戰爭之後2024年2025年結束之後還沒結束啦但是這兩年2024跟2025的部分我想這個能源價格其實還是下降很多很多的比起正在戰爭的當下2021、2022、2023的時候我想下降非常多所以每次說橋長價格就是說是因為國際燃料價格上漲我想一般民眾多數人看到這個數字跟這個趨勢一般來講是比較難接受的那如果我們從這個台電的發電結構的成本來看我想這個表"},{"start":6197.26,"end":6218.762,"text":"你們也看了非常多次了的確在那幾年我們的燃氣不管是台電自發或者是購物電力的確都有稍微上漲但是我想最影響最大的可能還是我們的光電成本或是風電成本我特別把它mark出來用黃色的底子把它放出來"},{"start":6219.583,"end":6237.7,"text":"風力發電,我們外購的,購入電力的風力發電成本到這個1130的這個自編預算裡面是6.5,平均成本是6.59那太陽光電,過去低就是5.74,那現在降到4.87還是高,有下降,但還是很高那另外一個有趣的,而且無法"},{"start":6238.32,"end":6255.866,"text":"大家會覺得奇怪說但像自發的太陽光電你的成本3.94你購物的卻是4.87中間有將近一塊錢的價差這個部分是不是可以請經濟部說明一下為什麼會有這樣子的成本的變動不一樣的問題那如果這個成本能夠下降的話是不是就有機會電價不用調漲"},{"start":6260.069,"end":6279.821,"text":"電價的調漲當然是反映成本這是第一個目的但是我們會不會調整電價不是我們經濟部的計算就能夠調整電價而是由電價審議委員參佐所有的產業跟所有民生的需求以後他來定出來一個價格"},{"start":6280.842,"end":6300.908,"text":"但是台電為什麼現在的虧損,確實是累積過去這幾年來,因為烏鱷戰爭,因為這個整個燃料的價格上來。那麼政府為了體恤這個國人,所以我們在民生的部分有動漲,那產業的部分其實我們也調控了。"},{"start":6301.508,"end":6325.077,"text":"所以在這個累積下來的都是在補貼讓電價不漲的在那幾年但是這幾年我們雖然得到大院的同意補助了三千億但是我們實際在那幾年是六千億的這個成本的付出所以這個我們現在持續的在請大院能夠同意來撥補一千億是在於撥補我們的財務面"},{"start":6326.698,"end":6351.646,"text":"那我們當然台電 我們要反省我們的創電成本您剛才所說的這個創電的成本確實是我們在考量的我們如何來調適讓它的一個價格能夠穩定這個高成本的部分我們呢 這個滿足需要的這個客人部長 你剛剛提到過去累積的虧損啊那我們看到目前的這個數字你剛剛講6000多億我看那個4429啦"},{"start":6355.347,"end":6369.817,"text":"我們看到的資料是先429億累積虧損是429億那去年不管是在追加預算還是今年在省所謂的114年總預算裡面在院長跟部長的任內你們提到了去年提出來的數字是2000嘛"},{"start":6370.738,"end":6393.163,"text":"你們本來說如果給你2000那可能這個兩年內店家不會上漲但是我們如果就數字來看數字如果累積虧損4429億那假設一切都順利兩黨三黨大家都非常和諧的通過了最佳預算也通過了總預算撥補了2100進去台電那你還是有2429億的虧損那2429億的虧損之外呢我們也看到今年1月的這個財報台電的財報我們再次看一樣我們就數字論數字嘛"},{"start":6399.665,"end":6411.536,"text":"光是今年一月的財報的部分,我想一月還不算用電的高峰一般來講我們認知商量不是用電高峰但是光一月如果含發電成本,你的虧損一月份而已又增加了112億的虧損112億的虧損裡面,其中太陽光電虧損了5.8億風力發電虧損58億"},{"start":6421.064,"end":6436.375,"text":"外購的燃氣虧損17億燃煤虧損7.9億等等的唯一沒有虧損的是什麼呢大概是核能發電發電不多但它是唯一有盈餘的盈餘大概7億多然後水力發電當然非常非常少啦但是這兩個都是有盈餘的"},{"start":6436.855,"end":6457.042,"text":"所以如果按照現在這種人員成本結構我們常常講嘛因為這個你已經虧損了那想辦法是開源和節流那開源當然就透過可能預算的波幅是開源漲電價是開源但是節流就我們提到啦如果今天我今天2000就像部長你提過的嘛如果2000給你然後你兩年不漲價可是問題是你的虧損是持續在累積耶"},{"start":6459.702,"end":6480.207,"text":"我想我們這個整體的能源的政策我們除了多元的發展以外我們還有一個節能的部分節能的部分我們希望能夠讓大家能夠正確的來使用好的電所以我們希望靠節能這樣然後來協助我們台電能夠在經營上面"},{"start":6485.228,"end":6498.463,"text":"能夠面對他的客戶的轉型然後協助他們這個用的這個電是具有可以這個那個節能當然是要做啦但是我後面有一張圖會跟大家講跟你講說因為我們的綠電我們的綠電是這樣我們的綠電是要賣給這個所謂的RE100的這些這個需求的"},{"start":6506.832,"end":6518.505,"text":"所以我雖然這個發電的成本高了一點但是那個是客人需要的就是說我們台灣因為是出口的國家所以你到歐盟的國家幾乎都是一定要用這個綠電你剛剛在說的這個核電的部分"},{"start":6522.289,"end":6543.514,"text":"它在歐盟是不被接受的它只是一個乾淨是一個潔淨的能源但是到歐盟是不行的歐盟它就是要綠電所以我們還是要發展這個綠電給我們國內的廠商有助於它做出口這個部分請委員能夠了解虧損的部分不是只有綠電虧損當然你說你要賣R100然後賣給這些綠電廠他們需要這個樣的電"},{"start":6550.615,"end":6573.617,"text":"所以回到你的財報上我是看不出來說這對台電公司的財務有明顯改善財報的表現跟委員報告財報的表現是根據會計法他做這樣的一個表現當然如果委員對這方面有興趣我們當然可以這個據實的跟委員做一個詳細的報告也許委員可以執政哪一些地方我們可以去improve"},{"start":6573.917,"end":6592.506,"text":"我相信我今天要讓台電能夠好好變成一個恢復到過去好的公司我有很多的管理構面從產銷人發 到Logistics我通通能夠來幫助他降低成本這一部分就是不是只有能源政策才能夠解決這個問題"},{"start":6594.167,"end":6611.3,"text":"如果委員支持 我們都歡迎討論我要支持什麼 我要支持希望你們要比照全球的趨勢我們等一下要下降嘛 我們看一下部長不好意思齁 這個因為時間真的不多 我們有去慢慢討論我們可以看到一下全球的這個趨勢啦我們從這個"},{"start":6613.982,"end":6640.422,"text":"再次能跟總署看到的數字從2010年到2023年的數字全球的光電它的成本是理論上下降90%的那離岸風電的理論上成本平均下來下降63%但反觀台灣其實我們下降的幅度幾乎沒有這樣的幅度坦白說我們現在是用很高昂的價格在採購或是在購買外購這些綠電的成本報告委員我想每一個人對資料取樣的方式不太一樣"},{"start":6641.443,"end":6658.912,"text":"那如果說委員您上面有寫這個IRENA的資料我們會來參考一下然後來檢視我們目前到底為什麼跟這個我們目前實際運作的成本不如那委員您所指教的這個部分不是 不是指教啦 我希望說提供"},{"start":6659.512,"end":6685.268,"text":"公開資訊嘛因為這個是對於全球人比其他先進國家的成本為什麼會比較低呢因為台灣的這個區域啊我們台灣的區域我們的地理地理區域事實上建制的成本都是比其他這個所謂大的這個這個大的島譬如說你到澳洲澳洲這麼大的一個島然後他發展太陽能光電有沙漠的地方發展太陽光電那個成本也非常非常的低"},{"start":6686.309,"end":6708.903,"text":"那我們譬如說在做這個陸域風電或者做這個離岸風電也是一樣因為我們的這個水底的資源不太一樣所以我的發電的成本一定高於歐洲的平均成本我們是不是就要來部長你這樣講我也同意所以我們是不是就要很坦誠的跟民眾告知說我們因為現在就是因為要發展再生能源所以我的電價你就要上漲"},{"start":6709.543,"end":6724.756,"text":"不要每次都講一些什麼為了照顧民生啊因為藍白卡預算啊因為什麼奇怪的原因所以店家上漲確實如果是如同部長所說的因為我們的地理環境限制所以我不管發展光電或發展風電我的成本就是這麼高那這個成本最終還是要回饋到店家上面"},{"start":6725.396,"end":6740.574,"text":"你要坦白說你要發展這個事情報告委員所以我們為什麼在2030年定下來我再生能源從現在的20%提到30%主要還是因應國內出國廠商出國到歐盟相關的廠商他們的需求"},{"start":6741.468,"end":6770.604,"text":"我們現在20%努力在建置到明年我要讓這個這個再生能源到20%但是2030年我們要滿足到30%也就是說2050年我要把現在的這個你剛剛提到說是為了廠你剛剛提到說是為了我們廠商出口的這個這個需求啦那如果是這樣的話那你漲民生電價不就沒道理了嗎因為對一般民眾來講這是你出口廠商的利益啊那你對一般民生來講你卻漲我一般人使用的民生電價那我想這是有點本末倒置啦好不好"},{"start":6772.785,"end":6794.703,"text":"對民生的部分 民生他既然不需要用到完全純綠電所以我們當然在這個售價上面我們會有一些不同的價格好 再來 部長你提到這個電力不足 院長也清楚我們剛剛上一個 詹樂圈我也提到我們最近看到新聞說菲律賓買電 你的目標價格是每度4塊錢"},{"start":6796.284,"end":6799.387,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會在這裡再次澄清我們那一份報告基本上是在做可行性分析的報告"},{"start":6822.113,"end":6847.125,"text":"那麼我們在做可行性分析以後確定技術面可行然後我們接著會探討風險會探討風險那我想這個所以你現在探討而已嘛還沒有要做是不是我們現在還在評估啊然後接著我們會實地的去這個survey然後看看成本是不是如這個評估報告裡面可以做得到"},{"start":6847.805,"end":6864.818,"text":"那麼以上都做到以後我們會鼓勵國內的廠商我們把它整合變成國家隊讓他去做大面積的這個重點部長我先確定一下你的目標你的風險或是你各方面的評估你的四塊錢是目標嗎我再跟你講"},{"start":6866.398,"end":6890.245,"text":"5塊5的這個所謂傳送回來這個店的資料是指日本他們目前從北海道送到這個九州的這個店前我要問最終成本我要問對我國對台電或對經濟部你去菲律賓採所謂做這個事情你的最終目標價是多少錢我最終目標價再一次在這裡跟你報告就是4塊錢到岸下超過4塊錢4塊錢到家我想這樣子啦"},{"start":6895.76,"end":6908.47,"text":"就一樣看如果回到剛剛醫院的財報來看的話以現階段來講4塊錢大概是我們外購的燃氣4.05元還有灌腸水利3.97元按照這個價錢來講還是虧損的啊不是啊對台電來講還是虧損的啊報告委員我是綠電喔回來是綠電喔所以綠電的價格是比較高的"},{"start":6917.184,"end":6922.928,"text":"綠電價格是可以賣比較高的賣給企業還是賣給一般 賣給台電公司賣企業 賣企業你那個綠電回來是直接是一樣透過台電的機制去賣綠電給企業還是有其他的方式直接給企業"},{"start":6933.339,"end":6959.849,"text":"我這是解決企業的問題嘛企業才有需要綠電一般的民眾他不需要綠電所以人力標價格是說他這個電回來之後是四塊錢的綠電也將四塊錢的價格賣給相關企業是不是你的計畫是這樣子不是不是我們四塊錢以後還要加上我們台電的電網成本輸電的成本所以我的賣的價格一定是高於四塊錢"},{"start":6961.894,"end":6987.489,"text":"成本呢?成本你說4塊,包含訂房成本4塊嗎?我的進口,我的進口到案價格是4塊錢嘛然後送到你的家裡面這個書配店的成本我要再加上去嘛我台電不可能虧錢我說4塊錢才賣出來,不可能的事情好部長謝謝喔那我們再看,你剛剛提到節能啦因為基本上我們從你們這個能源署或是說經濟部能源署提供的全國電力工序報告裡面來講台灣的用電量是持續在成長"},{"start":6988.089,"end":7002.684,"text":"那按照目前的這個能源結構來說按照目前的發電量來講可能是不夠我們都擔心說會不會缺電那不然是這個過去美國商會、歐洲商會甚至現在連AIT自己都出來講了嘛就是說對於台灣不發展核能他覺得"},{"start":7004.085,"end":7024.44,"text":"有很大的疑慮或對他們覺得為什麼不發展他們美國願意提供相關的技術所以我想問一下院長院長自己也提過說如果在各界的技術面中能達成的情況下面台灣可能可以重新考慮所謂新核能那我不知道院長現在對這個所謂新核能的定義或說對於這個發展核電的可行性現在的態度是什麼新核能的技術"},{"start":7025.37,"end":7033.688,"text":"很多國家或是一些大型的廠商他們有的研發大家通常講的是小型的核電廠或者是那個"},{"start":7035.319,"end":7056.343,"text":"融合各種的技術但是目前都還沒有到非常很熟的商轉的階段但是我們一直在關注這個方向的發展那我們也保持跟他們開放態度共同來研究的這種可能性我想就目前的狀況啦2025就現在啦就所謂的即將要達到非核家園了嘛"},{"start":7057.603,"end":7085.157,"text":"台灣要即將做到非核家園那非核家園的那一刻開始我想主要的主力發電就剩下可能就是火力跟所謂的再生能源但目前來講我們很明顯看到我們再生能源的這個供電量就是不足以應付大多數民生所以很多時候必須用依靠火力發電所以在這種小型所謂的新型核能還沒有成熟之前我們是不是就真的要把所有的核電廠來把它關掉"},{"start":7086.778,"end":7105.675,"text":"只剩下火力發電跟再生能源這兩種的主要的用途我們依照核管法規定5月17號核三廠二號機必須除役這是現在的規定但我們依照規定在執行但同時呢我們也對於現在新開發的多元的發展綠能以及我們在"},{"start":7106.135,"end":7127.389,"text":"逐步在推進的以氣換煤的電廠的更新還有一些包括民間的電廠能夠如續來進到我們發電的這個總數裡面來那這樣算起來我們到2032年的供電量還是足夠的這個民間電廠我想就現階段多數民間電廠是不是也都是以火力發電為主"},{"start":7128.78,"end":7154.503,"text":"也有氣發點 燃氣發點還有我們現在最新的跟委員報告我們現在的地熱也是都是透過明謙跟這個中油還有台電所有機構來努力在發展這個小水利也好啊或者是地熱也好這個屬於本土的這個能源我們現在擔心的是啦這個今年2025非核家園"},{"start":7154.983,"end":7179.854,"text":"真的說核電廠停機之後本來所謂屬於核能電廠穩定供應電的這一塊未來是用什麼來取代未來這幾年在你所謂的新型小型核能新核能發展完成之前的這段空窗期我們我國的這個電力到底是用什麼來取代是不是就真的都是用多數都是用所謂的燃氣或燃煤發電來取代的我們很多燃氣的電廠會逐步的在上上升"},{"start":7180.523,"end":7200.969,"text":"好 這個我覺得這個一般我想這個還是要希望這個行政院要去好好調整一下能源政策啦因為這個我想 不管是一般民眾安全無虞的供電意思是我們對人民的承諾 我也說也是台灣對全世界的承諾好 最後我想這個時間不夠了 三四分鐘這個我跟院長討論一下 這個政治問題 口水問題"},{"start":7202.249,"end":7216.254,"text":"這個院長上禮拜有來到台中來做相關的演說那提到說對台中有很多的建設非常照顧但是我們如果按照以拿出台中跟高雄這兩個這個人口差不多的直轄市來比較的話院長一看到就是"},{"start":7217.438,"end":7246.223,"text":"提到了台中三大建設比如說會展中心、巨蛋、綠美圖我想這個金額很明顯的多數都是地方來負擔那對比到高雄的幾個像類似的場館不管會展中心他們的展覽館、主場館流行音樂中心或衛文化中心等等的幾乎看起來全部都是由中央來負擔那從台中港這部分來講台中港的擴建計畫中央負擔90.9億那再來是高雄的港規建設我想這個數字加起來五六百億至少"},{"start":7246.883,"end":7264.788,"text":"那從這個機場也是高雄小港機場的新國際航廈計畫,金額高達880億,那我這個台中機場呢,我還一直擔心我是不是查錯資料,看錯資料,我還特別去調閱,華興道工程6.8,整體的台中機場目前的改善工程9.99,合計起來的16、17億左右,對比881億,我想這個落差,"},{"start":7270.009,"end":7284.439,"text":"很大還有幾個國道建設我想那天部長在台中也提到非常多對於國道建設的努力但是一個國道7號就615億台中捷運正在蓋的準備要蓋的藍線還有還沒有蓋完的綠線"},{"start":7285.419,"end":7305.032,"text":"對比到我們高雄的捷運紅線橘線跟已經準備要蓋的捷運黃線跟正在規劃的環庄輕軌我想中央政府的出資比例跟地方負擔的比例等等的我想都列在上面我想今天為什麼市長也好或是我們這些民營代表也好會常常會去講這個事情我並不是說中央完全沒有給台中建設有"},{"start":7306.033,"end":7324.287,"text":"也感謝包含說我剛提到的國道包含說捷運建設等等的但是這個數字就擺在眼前啦這個比例就擺在眼前啦我們台中市作為全台灣人口第二大的城市拿這樣子的中央的資源相對比較少的情況下我難免會發布不平之名我難免會覺得相對不多感嘛"},{"start":7324.747,"end":7347.613,"text":"所以我想問一下這個院長因為未來即將這個新的這個會期開始了嘛那這樣台中到底接下來有什麼樣的重大建設中央願意全力支持讓我們台中能夠符合相關的這個作為全台灣第二大城市我們的規模人這麼多交通就一條捷運目前為止一條而已那這個怎麼解決我們都要共同努力啊"},{"start":7348.123,"end":7369.304,"text":"在均衡台灣的理念之下不會像過去縱北青南也不會像過去縱北青南不注重中央縱北青南也要注重中央所以中間這個部分我們已經在我們六大區域產業的生活計劃區裡面把它列為精密"},{"start":7370.084,"end":7397.23,"text":"精密智慧的新核心台中維中心的精密智慧的新核心跟科技都把它連結在一起當然要串起很多的交通建設這樣才能夠讓基礎建設襯托整個六大產業生活區OK 院長跟部長也是給個方向啦對我們台中市民而言部長最了解台中我知道啊 我跟他以前同事啊"},{"start":7398.257,"end":7406.085,"text":"報告委員其實中央對台中絕對不會不注重我在台中的時候我也有說像東風快速道路"},{"start":7407.099,"end":7429.118,"text":"中央出了差不多70%的預算這個是台中市的建設但是內政部跟交通部大家一起努力出了70%的預算這個部分其實中央很努力在做還有就是台74縣74縣其實都在台中裡面包含建制包含現在的維養全部都是中央在努力台74縣在台中很多的民眾大家每天都在使用"},{"start":7429.557,"end":7438.083,"text":"其實中央能做的只要台中有需求一定都會努力好 最後幾秒鐘啦我提醒一下就是捷運的紅線跟捷運橘線你盡快核定"},{"start":7443.544,"end":7445.285,"text":"現在休息15分鐘休息之後繼續進行質詢現在休息"},{"start":8436.372,"end":8458.314,"text":"現在我們繼續開會首先我們來歡迎來自美國芝加哥亞洲國際關係學院所有的同學們Welcome to Taiwan另外我們歡迎來自台北市成功高中所有的同學好 歡迎接下來我們請邱正軍委員質詢"},{"start":8469.424,"end":8473.707,"text":"主席好我們有請我們的卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選邱委員好院長好院長今天一開始我想跟你討論的是我們苗栗孩子的授教權的問題我們看一下影片好不好"},{"start":8494.176,"end":8521.485,"text":"這個是上個月開學的時候我到苗栗的後莊國小去看孩子們上課的一個狀況那1.8公頃的這個學校最合適的班級數大概是40班後莊國小現在是51班院長你能想像超出11班又是滿班的一個學校孩子們在上課的教室跟下課的活動空間是有多擁擠嗎 剛剛有看到吧"},{"start":8522.793,"end":8549.6,"text":"我們再放一次好了這裡有五十一班喔對 五十一班那我們後川國小的這個位置就在科學園區的旁邊你們看一下這是一個小型的一個室內的一個運動場一個運動的一個區域那後川國小的位置就在科學園區旁邊"},{"start":8550.977,"end":8571.047,"text":"竹科的員工上個月已經有17萬8633人比起五年前增加了兩萬五千人左右竹科飽和帶來的外溢效益讓很多新竹上班的人選擇搬到苗栗的竹南跟投奉當然我們非常歡迎他們到苗栗來"},{"start":8574.937,"end":8599.694,"text":"我們在2022年的時候成為少數人口一路正成長的一個縣市更值得一提的是到去年2月到今年2月一年之間涉及在頭份竹南的人口增加了2117人近三年大概增加了6000人每一年以1%的這個速度成長在整個台灣來講是非常少見的"},{"start":8601.141,"end":8608.368,"text":"那現在竹南頭份市區的國中國小幾乎都是額滿的我們面臨的是學校小孩子根本都沒有教室上課"},{"start":8609.369,"end":8631.741,"text":"那接下來桃竹苗大溪谷計畫的推動我想我們預估未來會增加14萬個工作機會那可預期的就是孩子的這個售價的一個問題其實桃竹苗大溪谷計畫當初在核定的時候配套就包含要確保水電無虞、交通的順暢、醫療充足、員工居住跟子女教育的部分"},{"start":8632.659,"end":8657.66,"text":"沒錯吧,我們當初也涵蓋在這裡面那我們以南科來說增加台南、高雄、嘉義、屏東園區園區裡面每一個園區都有一所實驗的學校我們不是說別人有,我們苗栗也要有但是苗栗確實有這個需要那我們再看一下剛剛下一張照片這個好"},{"start":8662.196,"end":8688.823,"text":"這是二月中我們開的一個座談會來參與的都是家長這個人數是爆滿的我們希望因應園區的發展小孩子的就業需求在竹南科學園區裡面設立實驗中學那目前我們中縣長也已經找好了地是縣府的地大概有九公頃左右那地由地方出中央出錢一起合作我們那天的座談會教育部有派人來參加"},{"start":8690.715,"end":8707.234,"text":"教育部目前應該是沒有什麼問題現在就等院長跟國科會我們這邊點頭我不知道院長的意思非常感謝邱委員如此關心教育的問題能夠關心下一代是我們必須該做的重要的事情"},{"start":8708.035,"end":8723.114,"text":"那隨著科學園區的增加產業的發展我們需要更多的這種教育的設施空間所以我想無論從硬體軟體 絲織各方面來十足的增加都必須要的而且"},{"start":8724.482,"end":8748.85,"text":"委員所說的已經不是光是教育部的問題了我們的實驗中學與其在科學園區的實驗中學都是國科會要全面來規劃來執行的所以國科會吳主委也一直在討論這個事情那我也相當的了解目前進度過程吳主委來答覆我們請吳主委講一下我們科學園區實驗中學需要在園區籌設計畫抱怨"},{"start":8751.428,"end":8775.124,"text":"核電技取得學校用地產權後才能夠進行評估規劃目前我們整個產業的需求現在還沒有很明確因為原來竹南科學園區的這個土地上次院長也去看過現在縣政府所規劃的三塊地"},{"start":8776.007,"end":8799.429,"text":"其實都不符合現在產業的需求我想問主委我們大溪谷計畫是不是確定會推動已經核定了但是地方政府要配合當然我們絕對會配合那既然要推動是不是小孩子就這個教育的問題 受教的問題是不是要優先考量而且要提早來進行因為"},{"start":8800.239,"end":8818.432,"text":"孩子的成長只有一次他沒有辦法重來也不能等他錯過這一次機會如果我們慢了一年他的未來就影響到了比較快速的方法是趕快在既有的學校趕快擴充問題他剛剛我講了他那個土地只有1.8公尺因為需要要成立科學園區的實驗中學"},{"start":8820.013,"end":8836.946,"text":"是有他的一些既定的這個辦法我想委員非常清楚我們要做很完善的調查這位委員報告這個部長也跟鍾縣長有過接觸有討論過那目前這個部長在教育部裡面的作業我請部長來說明"},{"start":8839.151,"end":8855.875,"text":"我想謝謝委員關心竹南竹苗地區的一些從小學國中到高中的一些教育的一個機會的提供跟教育品質上的一個確保確實我們也看到竹苗這三個縣是因為科學園區的一個進駐"},{"start":8861.608,"end":8869.363,"text":"這個人口是在增加的所以我們在今年的一月對目前的竹苗八所的高中我們已經撥了3,507萬先"},{"start":8873.444,"end":8890.442,"text":"用來增班這是一個馬上立即可以改善我跟你報告齁那跟委員報告那另外我們也核定就是說從今年開始我們這一個苗栗縣頭份國中的西測校測二十間的校測教師的工程經會"},{"start":8891.643,"end":8907.155,"text":"有1億7千將近8千萬這個用來希望能夠趕快增設這個學校我想另外還有一個苗栗的這個大同高中跟新華高中我們也給予這個經費的補助都希望"},{"start":8908.215,"end":8936.584,"text":"從快速的校舍的徵件學校的成立跟部長你講的沒錯這是一般的校舍啦一般的校舍其實當初我們中央補助了非常多的一個實驗教室實驗室那現在這些實驗室根本就是已經拿來當作教室在用了所以學生這連實驗室都沒有這個部分本來就是要解決那我們提的實驗中學他其實的目的是在於說因為我們很多這個園區的員工的子女受教的問題"},{"start":8937.364,"end":8956.818,"text":"一般來說,如果我們現在不成立,未來我們苗栗縣的這些,搬到苗栗縣的來這些園區的員工的子女,他未來要到新竹去念實驗中學是不可能的,他進不去的。所以我們是希望把人才留在苗栗,才會跟我們中間來提這件事情,你懂我意思嗎?"},{"start":8959.005,"end":8976.212,"text":"不過我們是已經跟縣政府有討論過這個事我們竹科管理局也是很積極在協助那我們希望苗栗縣政府趕快先進行擴建用地規劃這個規劃還是要符合我們產業需求這個規劃完成以後我們竹科管理局會"},{"start":8977.192,"end":9005.183,"text":"取得產權之後土地規劃完,用地取得你不能先核地嗎?先准他嗎?他就可以先前作業嘛,不是嗎?要先前作業,現在可能性評估在做可是現在三塊用地其實是並不符合我們現在講的重要產業他的這個需求那當然啦,這個縣府我這是另外一個層面我們當然會加緊腳步跟中央好好的配合啦那我現在講的就是說這個部分我們不能拿出來先來做一個事前的一個準備嘛"},{"start":9006.403,"end":9032.519,"text":"讓我們在後續才能夠知道我們下一步要做什麼委員剛剛吳主委講說現在的土地評估起來不是很適合也請委員拜託我們到一定對地方了解有沒有更好的地點我們可以再繼續做評估那原則上我這樣問好了我們院長 主委 部長你們支不支持我們大溪谷計畫的園區裡面我們住在園區裡面增設一所實驗中學你支持什麼我們評估"},{"start":9034.543,"end":9057.464,"text":"確定有這個需求 我們當然一定會盡力來協助現在我就覺得 你就答應我就好了嘛不是 我們還是評估因為用地取得對啦 我知道啦 我的意思是說你既然大溪谷計畫 既然要確定要實施那為什麼 學校我認為趨勢上我們應該要提早因應做準備但是如果沒有找到合適的地點 大小"},{"start":9058.445,"end":9076.574,"text":"他的位置的土地那也是沒有辦法執行所以趕快來找找看適合的地點是何在我們就進行來評估如何來設置怎麼樣規模內容的一個怎麼樣學校但地點要先有著落好的土地的問題我們來解決啦那我們會支持孩子受教的問題嗎對不對"},{"start":9079.045,"end":9096.367,"text":"是,我們當然桃中原大氣股的發展已經在行政院通過了我們科學園區管理局會積極來協助因為你看嘉義、嘉科、平科、時中111年核定,113年八月就開始招生了,它現在還沒蓋好"},{"start":9097.668,"end":9121.143,"text":"當然土地的問題這個我知道那我們回去加緊腳步那請我們主委跟我們部長還院長大家一起來努力來推動這件事情好嗎好謝謝部長請回那接下來我再請問我們的院長我們賴清德總統上週在宣布這個17項策略之後"},{"start":9122.955,"end":9150.989,"text":"人民還有各行各業普遍都感覺到台灣的民主變了調雖然總統沒有宣布戰爭也沒有宣布戒嚴但是對外就是進入了準戰爭的時期對內就是實施類戒嚴賴總統說中國大陸危險嚴重我們有召開或者是參加緊急的因應會議嗎有就開了幾次這一次兩次都有參加"},{"start":9152.473,"end":9177.876,"text":"院長你認為台灣是一個民主國家嗎當然是我也認同你剛剛講的但是我覺得讓我們覺得賴清德總統賴政府正在複製一段歷史一樣的反共一樣的反民族主義的口號一樣的製造內部跟外部的敵人一樣的利用抹黑的手段媒體抹黑的手段"},{"start":9178.922,"end":9196.108,"text":"一樣的藉體發揮面對不同的聲音一樣的貼標籤然後要做司法的變革一樣的政治目的目的就是要消滅我們在野黨你有沒有覺得這個似曾相識絕對非如此我們只是在面對境外敵對勢力對我們不斷的"},{"start":9198.557,"end":9221.456,"text":"併吞跟滲透的意圖我們築起一道更高更堅固自我防衛的高牆這絕對不是準戰爭的行為自我防衛的決心自我防衛的責任我們現在內政府所做的事情跟希特勒非常相似完全不一樣我們總統講一句話我們就要恢復軍事審判這個不是獨裁嗎"},{"start":9224.053,"end":9252.168,"text":"當然不是 軍事審判我再說明他只有針對現役軍人的五種軍事犯罪叛亂 利敵 泄密 廢止職務以及抗命軍人不能有這五種行為有這五種行為就是軍事審判我們總統公開發言公開宣布了30分鐘那台灣人民可能有一半以上就開始擔心以後的生活那按照民主法制的精神恢復軍事審判制度要不要修法"},{"start":9253.103,"end":9281.876,"text":"我們會啟動所有相關的修法包括軍法官人士的條例我們也要有更有經驗跟民主素養的軍法官來處理這些案子草案你有沒有正在處理啊什麼時候要提呢我希望我們這一個月內提了之後會跟社會溝通嗎當然我們現在所有的立法過程都必須跟社會也要跟大院溝通對啦 不要總統一宣布你們就配合著修法我認為爭取社會"},{"start":9282.876,"end":9297.31,"text":"的認同更重要我們會啟動相關必要的程序這才是民主國家啦跟委員報告我想我們在研擬的過程當中都要跟社會各界保持溝通也要跟這個相關的這些專業人士來進行諮商這樣子"},{"start":9300.032,"end":9318.543,"text":"那根據中華民國憲法總統是可以宣戰也可以宣布戒嚴公布法令發布命令但是我沒有聽過總統一句話就可以把這個現有的法律直接改掉的那要不要恢復軍事審判這是一個嚴肅的問題我們可以認真對待這件事情嗎 院長這個"},{"start":9320.578,"end":9346.495,"text":"朝野的委員在過去也都有這樣相關的提案所以不是總統的一句話總統宣示一個政策出來之後民主國家按照民主的程序來完成所有相關立法跟配套這是現在我們必須馬上開始要做所以立法的也都要經過立法院的同意這個不是說我們相關這樣一下宣布就可以進行因為我們研擬完之後"},{"start":9347.135,"end":9376.018,"text":"跟專業人士諮商跟社會溝通還是要送大院來審議我希望你們講的要照做就是說你們常常在喊的是沒有討論就沒有民主我希望你們不要一邊講一種話回來講又另外一種話我們當然是不允許我們的國軍裡面有人做出危害國家安危的事情但是你們現在對外一致的回答讓民眾覺得你在告訴大家"},{"start":9377.336,"end":9396.982,"text":"馬英九任內我們兩岸溝通非常良好非常和平蔡英文任內也還算穩定所以沒有軍法重啟軍法的這個必要那現在我們賴總統一上任之後就任務軍機就變換扇了就準備開戰了現在是這個原因嗎"},{"start":9398.562,"end":9422.571,"text":"我們外面的解讀是這樣我想院長已經一切的說明了這個我想我們就已經限縮為現役軍人犯軍人職務上是犯罪這跟這個戒嚴沒有任何的關聯不然我再問你你過去是支持廢除軍事法庭的嘛那你要為你過去的審判制度道歉嗎"},{"start":9423.77,"end":9451.331,"text":"我想我們現在要來的是一個重新打造一個新的符合公平審判原則跟正當法律原則的一個新的您的意思是說你2013年當時你還是顧立雄律師的時候你的私律不周、倉促行事、鋁蟒而廢除的軍事審判是錯的嗎?我想當時的軍事審判制度有違憲的地方有這個不符合公平法律的設計的地方那時候為什麼不改要廢呢?"},{"start":9452.472,"end":9469.711,"text":"當時我並不是國防部長所以你現在你現在擔任的你就要飛了但是我現在擔任我當然有這個職責來讓這個軍事審判是合於憲法的意志因為現在的司法跟檢調普遍都不太讓人民信任更何況是完全在威權的這個"},{"start":9471.668,"end":9492.862,"text":"軍隊禮軍事審判要不要恢復這是一個嚴肅的問題民主國家很多國家都有軍事審判的這樣的一個制度其實我們的立場一直沒有認為說要把它廢除我們只是說這個東西當然是可以更透明這是我們當初國民黨的一貫的立場那當初說要廢的是你啊是你們民進黨"},{"start":9493.903,"end":9509.195,"text":"那現在說要恢復的也是民進黨神也是你們鬼也是你們這個立場反覆啊讓人民沒有辦法苟同嘛你要怎麼樣去去跟像那些當初為了洪仲秋的案子的號召的上街頭的24萬人"},{"start":9511.135,"end":9530.108,"text":"他們要請何以堪?我們回憶一下當時是因為內在的因素因為裡面的事件軍中人權被忽略了所以內在的因素經過種種社會的反應是馬前總統的宣布廢除了軍事研判今天我們面對是外在的威脅"},{"start":9530.828,"end":9560.008,"text":"所以時空背景內部的因素我們已經完整的保存了人權跟包裝金鐘人權未來我們也會有更有經驗更有民主更有法律素養的軍法官來審理所以沒有內在因素的問題我們面對的是外在的威脅所以你現在解釋就是說跟現在時空背景是不一樣嘛對不對是不一樣以前追求的是安居樂業那以兩岸和平為主軸那現在你說追求兩岸和平是溫柔的投降"},{"start":9561.088,"end":9572.894,"text":"在我看來,私私有兩種,和平也有兩種一種是國家要夠強,一種是束手投降在我看來,這是掌權者無視人命的倔強你還記得賴清德總統要上任的時候他有一個影片廣告宣傳他是上了一部轎車"},{"start":9587.961,"end":9601.2,"text":"可是我現在看起來他當選之後他是不是上錯車了他開到火車了不會轉彎直走我們開一部往和平的車往和平中站的車但是我們每天受到"},{"start":9603.137,"end":9617.717,"text":"軍機軍艦的威脅在台灣環繞不是從今天開始也不是從520開始好啦院長最後來我跟你講我們內閣裡面有很多人失言、造謠甚至當側翼的這些官員你們可以用很多的政治語言去粉飾太平"},{"start":9618.237,"end":9645.555,"text":"但是總統對外講的話會牽動國家的生死存亡也會帶著2300萬人民的生命財產安全受到影響那我希望以後這種事情我希望你們能夠更審慎的來討論我們兩岸的關係跟國際上的一個關係這樣可以嗎一直非常審慎的討論事前做很多的研商那麼每一個文字自貞自卓的都相當的謹慎"},{"start":9646.576,"end":9657.346,"text":"就是要讓國人有信心讓國際也認為我們有保衛自己的決心那部長說國軍不管有沒有打仗隨時都要備戰嘛 對不對"},{"start":9658.75,"end":9680.999,"text":"對 因為我們備戰才能避戰對 我也覺得非常有道理本來我們這個國防本來就是要做那現在兩岸關係現在被你們搞到這麼緊張要增加國防實力我認為沒有人會反對今年國防預算是6470億我們賴總統說要提高到GDP的3%大概會增加1200億左右"},{"start":9683.539,"end":9699.528,"text":"當然我們在黨的立場是這樣合理的可以被監督的當然我們會支持但是你們打算怎麼分配你是多少要買武器多少要增加國軍薪資的待遇"},{"start":9700.568,"end":9726.771,"text":"跟委員報告我想大概國防的預算支出大概是就三大塊一塊是人員的維持費一塊是作業維持費還有一塊是這個軍事投資軍事的投資又有不同也有除了我們國防自主的產能之外也有軍購也有商購所以這些部分我們都是依照我們作戰的實際需要來進行這個相關的這些軍事投資"},{"start":9727.632,"end":9751.294,"text":"那作業維持的部分,因為中國的清早,我想這個作業維持也日益增加,我想我們也需要這些零附件、油料的這些籌貨。那人員維持的部分,我想我們也在進行一些待遇調整的方案,這些方案也順化行政院,行政院正在審議當中。好,那你們有提版本了嗎?國民黨提了一個,對吧?國民黨提了一個,"},{"start":9753.872,"end":9780.125,"text":"軍人待遇改革法案從薪資加給福利津貼方面直接入法保障因為要提升國防最重要的是人你買再多的武器沒有人是沒有用的沒有人使用是沒用的那志願役呢國民黨提的版本是二等兵直接加薪兩萬那你們研議的會比這個多還是比這個少我想行政院在審議之後我們會對外公布但是我們不認為這樣子的一個"},{"start":9781.383,"end":9805.308,"text":"我一直在講這種因為現在據這個立委有提出來的這些喊價式的這種待遇調整的方法我想並沒有考慮到整個這一個我覺得是這樣子你們既然有版本要趕快提出來是在還沒有進入三讀之前我們政黨裡面我們大家好好的來協商好好討論這件事情我覺得這是有必要的不要倉促到時候你們不談等到我們提出來你們要提復議"},{"start":9807.394,"end":9822.708,"text":"院長應該會盡快來核定這一個國防部已經把完整詳細的整個方案這個案子都送到行政院行政院基本上會尊重國防部我也會同意國防部送來的案子那什麼時候大概什麼時候會停我們完成內部很快"},{"start":9824.26,"end":9850.987,"text":"這個之外我們對軍人的一些包括他的保險我們也會做增加這是另案的我們是希望提升軍人的待遇目的是要有人那當然我們也有精兵的一個政策然後我們大概也算了一下大概改善軍人待遇初估大概多了大概是440多億我覺得這非常重要而且我們部裡面還有行政院這邊能夠納入考量"},{"start":9852.418,"end":9880.009,"text":"我們衡量國家的需求對軍人的待遇、國家的需求對於整體的戰力因為我們要從整體的不只財政預渡好啦,那我期待你們的版本出來還考量謝謝,謝謝部長那再來就是賴總統的17項策略裡面部長請回,請回主委也請回就台灣與中國的經貿關係進行策略性的結構調整那目前我們要怎麼調整"},{"start":9881.311,"end":9909.322,"text":"他的原則就是以強本固台風險管理作為原則性那對雙方的人流物流是現說兩岸的活動嗎是現說對兩岸兩邊雙邊的人流物流金流跟技術必須要做到必要跟有序的調整就是一切要以強化我們自己的經濟安全為出發怎麼調整嗎你要終止ECFA還是要做進出國管制還是要廢除兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":9911.055,"end":9937.248,"text":"大體的講是內控跟外控我們對出去到國外的你知道我們台灣一年出口中國跟香港的這個金額是多少嗎一定相當龐大 對所以我們更要小心不如過度的依賴性出去的各種關於高科技的產品更應該再符合我們現在國家安全的需求底下做強烈要求對 我現在要講的一個現實的問題就是說"},{"start":9938.772,"end":9967.455,"text":"台灣進出口到中國香港每年是四兆八千一百九十八億左右那我講的是去年的數據那今年呢出口美國的金額是三兆五千六百億左右那到日本的金額是八千兩百億台灣出口東協十國的金額大概是兩兆八千億左右那如果我們現在限縮了我們跟中國的一個交流的時候我們每年進出口到"},{"start":9968.459,"end":9991.545,"text":"大陸香港的這些業者他們未來怎麼辦所以台灣也要分散我們的市場我們出去到中國的很多的產品他都是加工之後又到世界各地去那也許世界各地也有更適合的生產基地你這些配套搶好了沒有因為我看你們的動作就是要跟對岸來終止你要叫這些人"},{"start":9992.285,"end":10009.397,"text":"我們只是要做必要跟有序的調整你要給人家一個方向你知道嗎你不是說現在講然後讓大家覺得沒有明天我到底要不要繼續投資我到底要怎麼樣我要移到哪邊去我這個行業到底要不要繼續做那我的未來怎麼辦我的貸款怎麼辦我的小孩怎麼辦"},{"start":10010.217,"end":10033.139,"text":"不僅我們的廠商會到世界布局,我們也會另外有相當完整的條件希望國外的廠商也到台灣來設廠投資那國內的廠商在國內的投資也會持續的加碼,這個都是現在已經看到的現象部長,你們如果最終的目的是要兩岸停止交流,我請你們直接告訴人民,讓我們的人民有所準備"},{"start":10034.179,"end":10058.042,"text":"這樣不確定性會讓人民不知所措兩岸必須做健康有序的交流我們只是做一些必要的交流你們的健康標準是什麼健康就是要保障台灣人主體的安全國防的安全跟經濟的安全跟人民的安全這個怎麼認定這個怎麼認定我覺得很模糊你知道嗎你不能選擇一把大刀在人家頭上什麼時候要往下砍不知道我高興我就不砍我不高興你就砍下來"},{"start":10059.383,"end":10085.406,"text":"那你叫人民未來何去何從他要怎麼樣無所適從你懂我意思嗎我們就是要避免這種大刀架在我們脖子上不是你現在是別人的大刀架在我們頭上沒錯那我們自己又拿了一把大刀又壓在我們人民身上不是嗎沒有我們沒有把大刀壓在自己身上所以我覺得你們的政策既然要做講清楚跟人民講清楚你未來要怎麼樣這樣可以嗎"},{"start":10086.594,"end":10111.401,"text":"總統在3月13號的財事當中這17項是非常清楚的只是我們一一要把它落實到部會裡面去當這個完善的周延的計畫出來之後會不會就拒之行那時候再請委員執照跟支持那我再來問台積電赴美投資我們這邊說是1000億美金川普說是2000億這個你們掌握的到底是多少"},{"start":10113.13,"end":10137.355,"text":"我們所知道是原來就已經有650億再加上1000億是這個1650億院長跟我們的總統也都說過要跟留台灣要把台積電最先進的製程留在台灣但是投審會說那個N1的規定只有針對中國其他地方是沒設限的對吧"},{"start":10139.58,"end":10150.089,"text":"報告委員台積電我們當然是尊重他的投資規劃魏哲嘉董事長也表明台積電對台灣的投資是不變的"},{"start":10151.212,"end":10173.488,"text":"像是高雄的兩奈米廠、嘉義先進的封裝廠這些投資都不會改變未來也會持續擴大的投資對台灣的半導體業來講,仍然是全球最完善的半導體供應體系我知道你未來是怎麼管控高階技術、高階人才不會過去"},{"start":10174.639,"end":10201.57,"text":"過幾天不是他們州長要過來嗎他們到美國去投資必須要經過經濟部的投審會的許可所以我們會堅持把最新的技術留在台留在這個國內那這個裡面當然你怎麼堅持是最新你們剛剛講了我記得部長前幾天有講過就是說最新的技術明年是1.6奈米是不會過去嘛對不對"},{"start":10203.611,"end":10220.782,"text":"台積電他們現在會開始開發1.6奈米的技術但是這個技術還沒有到生產線還沒有辦法到生產線所以我相信他在美國他要生產線上面要去佈局1.6奈米這個是"},{"start":10223.024,"end":10235.098,"text":"不夠內行的說法也不夠專業的說法所以就是不會去嘛所以他會去的一定是在國內已經有成績的部分才會過去我們每年到台積電的他的"},{"start":10242.046,"end":10262.278,"text":"基本支出是大概381到420億美元如果美國的這個設置工廠它要到這個1000億美元的話我們算過大概一年要250億美元那會影響我們台灣的這個整個的進度嗎?這個不會你保證不會?你說一年會有一個廠嗎?對吧?"},{"start":10263.82,"end":10289.289,"text":"他不會影響 這個是台積電他到美國也是他全球佈局的一個部分他主要是要接近他美國的客戶那麼這個美國的客戶比較先進的製程都在美國所以台積電去那裡主要是服務他的客戶好 時間也到了 謝謝院長 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝邱正軍委員質詢也謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢"},{"start":10292.753,"end":10316.874,"text":"現在在議場二樓旁聽的遠從屏東電器裝修職業工會的好朋友麗玲立法院我們熱情歡迎現在在我們議場右邊來自中華民國全級協會的武林高手熱情歡迎接下來我們請登記第35位謝一鳳委員質詢"},{"start":10331.267,"end":10337.213,"text":"謝謝院長我想要請卓院長農業部長還有環境部長麻煩請卓院長農業部環境部備選"},{"start":10349.929,"end":10361.934,"text":"主委長好我想要了解一下其實我知道說我們減碳一直是我們政府的目標但是"},{"start":10363.188,"end":10380.787,"text":"我們看到了對於農民有幫助的在減碳部分因為現在有非常多的企業投入了這樣子SDG以及我們ESG相關的這樣子的一個發展"},{"start":10382.329,"end":10397.577,"text":"這都跟農業有絕對的相關性我也去看了我們彰化縣農業非常多有志於發展農業科技以及結合綠電以及永續發展的農資農財這樣子相關的發展"},{"start":10402.219,"end":10426.175,"text":"但是我發現了一個非常奇怪的就是當我們的農業要來減碳的時候他一定要有減碳的方法學那我想要請問的是我們彭部長我們目前環境部對於減碳的方法學審理到底需要多久的時間"},{"start":10427.308,"end":10442.18,"text":"保護委員過去的確是比較久但是我們現在過去多久過去可能都要一兩年因為過去比較久但是現在大概我們通過了五個過去多久你說過去我不知清楚但是我們過去這幾個月大概通過了四個方法學"},{"start":10443.401,"end":10457.266,"text":"例如說森林的管理還有這種竹林還有各種的育苗的處理其實已經有五個方法學那未來呢未來目前例如說海洋的海藻或是紅樹林也正在申請當中"},{"start":10458.407,"end":10474.138,"text":"因為我覺得這個減碳的方法學對於農民是非常重要的尤其是小農過去我在質詢農委會的時候我們就怎麼樣子把這些方法學因為小農他沒有辦法"},{"start":10475.118,"end":10498.468,"text":"去自己去提出申請那一定是農委會等相關的協助我們整個小農對於整個企業的方法學一定要讓他們有一個可以共同遵循的方向但是在方法學的審理上面即便這個方法學是在農業部這邊是不是"},{"start":10501.05,"end":10518.604,"text":"我跟委員報告我們農業部本身所擬定的現在目前有五個方法學院送到環境部那環境部本身過往是比較慢但是這一年多來這將近一年來其實他們審理的速度大概平均大概是六個月到八個月就可以出來"},{"start":10519.204,"end":10539.591,"text":"那最近的比較重要委員所關切的特別是跟跟作有關的土壤的方法學那現在也已經進到環境部的第二次審查那我們預計審查過的過程裡面有些需修正的那如果過了以後對於我們農業經營上面的的這些減碳的作為就會很有幫助"},{"start":10540.984,"end":10568.9,"text":"對 如果沒有減碳的這個方法學的時候農民怎麼利用減碳去得到就是說除了種植農作物以外的這樣子就是說國際在追求減碳的這個過程當中他們額外的收入那我們知道說目前農民的數量減少但是有青農的加入我們希望青農在加入以後"},{"start":10569.52,"end":10594.258,"text":"可以藉由這種對於農業新興的獲利的方式來協助他們除了在耕種以外能夠藉由碳費能夠得到一筆收入這是我們希望能夠帶來未來農業可以永續發展以及結合現在企業要投入永續農業以及ESG相關的作為的時候如果環境部"},{"start":10594.778,"end":10622.766,"text":"你們的方法學沒有提出的話你們沒有加速審理的話你們都還在這裡局部不前的話那這樣子未來我們農業怎麼發展是不是保委員這個是我們非常重視的但是因為我們台灣過去對於農業的方法學是比較陌生的但是現在有在加快但是我也跟委員報告因為我們目前的碳費的價格是只有300塊那其實在這個市場上如果農民來做這個東西其實"},{"start":10623.986,"end":10650.909,"text":"現在的價值性不高那我們未來呢其實更重要的一環是要推動總量管制的排放交易如果明年下半年我們可以上路的話農民的誘因因為我們台灣的土地相對的農民的土地都比較小所以他要做這個整個碳的這個匯的價值額外的收入的話其實是成本跟收入不成比例的所以未來呢我們也會擴大跟農民的再溝通希望能夠來幫助農民在減碳的部分能夠獲得不一樣的收益"},{"start":10651.46,"end":10664.836,"text":"我在這邊跟委員補充就是個別農戶因為他土地面積小就算他得到的碳費本身的減碳的價值是非常低的所以我們已經同步針對這個個體小農去做集結變成集團栽培的經營組去做處理的話"},{"start":10668.28,"end":10694.802,"text":"那樣子他比較得到比較大的量可以跟ESG做結合在第一個部分第二個部分就是委員所關切的其實在彰化有很多葡萄農這些枝條的部分那現在我們農業部也推動了剩餘資源的循環在利用特別是將這些枝條剪下來以後經過粉碎以後變成生殖燃料的生殖燃料棒那這個生殖燃料棒的部分也可以當作一個能源的一個替代"},{"start":10695.66,"end":10703.394,"text":"好,那我還想要請,謝謝彭部長,我想要請衛福部的邱部長。麻煩請衛福部備選。"},{"start":10707.192,"end":10734.531,"text":"農業部我們陳部長請等一下我想請問一下就是對於紐西蘭的牛乳進口這個部分其實糯農還是很希望說我們可以維持就是說就是在鮮乳的部分我們希望紐西蘭進口的鮮乳能夠不要加上長效鮮乳這個部分以長效乳來鑄成那"},{"start":10735.431,"end":10763.529,"text":"為什麼衛福部都沒有辦法我是不是可以說明一下現在我們跟衛福部其實針對這個議題討論的非常多那最新的一個共識而且也經過諾能的座談裡面討論的就是未來只要是有鮮乳標章產銷履歷跟CAS的國產乳才能夠標鮮乳國產的鮮乳然後其他的部分包括進口的我們"},{"start":10764.369,"end":10782.208,"text":"修正了相關的經濟部的一個標準局的相關的規範未來的牛乳的話只能分為牛乳、羊乳不能再加先制因為先制本身是一個形容詞它很難去界定說它是幾天以下才叫做先所以未來只有國內生產的牛乳"},{"start":10783.699,"end":10802.439,"text":"國內生產的牛乳而且是要取得我們的證明標章先乳證明標章產銷履歷或是CS的那這三個標章是為了讓我們的國內的牛乳本身具有產品的差異化那透過這樣的產品差異化才能夠讓我們的國產牛乳在市面上比較有大的競爭力"},{"start":10803.41,"end":10818.187,"text":"那所以未來紐西蘭或其他國家進口的就不能夠加上鮮嗎?對,根據相關的規定就只能叫做牛奶所以就不會加上鮮乳,就是會排解我們目前就是國內弱農的疑慮是不是?"},{"start":10819.088,"end":10835.015,"text":"我希望說我們相關的作業能夠加速可以嗎因為今年度是因為就是紐西蘭的牛乳他生產並不多那進口的數量也不多那未來如果進口的數量多的話那恐怕會影響國內酪農的相關的生產"},{"start":10837.176,"end":10852.623,"text":"我跟你們提供一個數據,其實紐西蘭進口本身以去年來講是一萬三千多噸那一萬三千多噸裡面有將近一萬噸是薄酒爐的系統其實它紐西蘭本身它鮮乳的進口量只佔它整個進口量的百分之三十"},{"start":10853.951,"end":10869.42,"text":"好那那個邱部長再麻煩你把這個部分就是相關的法律能夠協助好不好好是的好謝謝那我再想要請問一下就是我們經濟部的郭部長農業部衛生部請回"},{"start":10881.481,"end":10905.248,"text":"我剛才那個陳部長他提到了就是農業的減肥其實我昨天排了一個到設計研究院也就是你經濟部所屬的這樣子一個財團法人那我們去看了就是裡面他已經有就是設計好的機台已經把果皮或者是果渣等等"},{"start":10905.828,"end":10919.894,"text":"它可以藉由這樣子一個轉變變成第一個可穿的布料或者是目前作為我們電動車車上的皮料"},{"start":10922.975,"end":10942.586,"text":"那以這樣子的一個研究以及讓我們的循環經濟能夠成為可實現的這樣子的一個方法那我想要請問一下我們經濟部以及我們行政院是不是應該要大力的支持"},{"start":10943.604,"end":10969.885,"text":"是的 我們經濟部是有支持我們有提供研發投資抵減 抵減率大概15%各個產業都可以來申請試用我想請問的是因為其實設計本身是一個產業目前設計產品的設計以及相關的這是不是也請我們財政部的"},{"start":10971.866,"end":10985.275,"text":"財政部貝雪設計業者從事具一定創新程度的創作這些相關研發的支出也可以申請那麼在修訂設備投資抵檢的子辦法時亦會將設計業所需的AI軟硬體設備或者技術這個抵檢率有5%納入評估"},{"start":10996.745,"end":11012.581,"text":"我是說對於品牌的設計以及對於我們產品製程的相關設計尤其是對於像這樣子農廢的再循環利用變成工業的產品等"},{"start":11013.161,"end":11032.674,"text":"相關製程的這樣子的一個研發設計那是不是我們不用透過修法以執法的修訂那就可以把他們納入就是企業的這個投資底檢的這個項目裡面那這樣子郭部長他是大力的支持那莊部長咧"},{"start":11034.262,"end":11047.46,"text":"我想在目前來說相關的法律裡面對原發的支出都已經有投資抵減那在執法規裡面只要在法律的這個法律的上位之下都可以訂定相關的一些細節項目"},{"start":11049.222,"end":11066.038,"text":"因為我們看到了目前台灣他希望能走出自己的品牌我們希望利用自己的產品在世界打出我們自己的品牌我們當然除了半導體以外我們還有非常重要的傳產"},{"start":11067.139,"end":11081.745,"text":"那重要的傳產裡面他們沒有透過這樣子的產品的設計的話他們沒有辦法能夠在國際有自由品牌我想要請問郭部長你知道吧你的過去你的次長"},{"start":11083.045,"end":11108.531,"text":"連錦章市長他現在就在設計研究院裡面當董事長他對於產業界非常熟悉所以他可以把產業界的意見以及我們設計團隊的意見共同結合起來對於台灣的這樣子設計產業的相關的這個共同研發的動力是非常大的"},{"start":11108.931,"end":11118.004,"text":"所以我們經濟部絕對不能夠放棄這樣子的一個項目我們一定要繼續的來培植我們的設計產業我們過去我們有金馬獎"},{"start":11125.214,"end":11145.209,"text":"然後呢現在我們過去我們的戲劇在國際都獲得非常好的成績現在我們的設計也有經典獎我們的設計跟世界上的設計的大獎共同都有互相的合作那未來"},{"start":11146.01,"end":11169.171,"text":"如果可以把台灣產品的設計力能夠展現出來的時候那是不是對於未來台灣不管是在高科技產業或者是在傳產裡面都有相關的協助那現在我們是不是能獲得我們郭部長以及莊部長共同的支持"},{"start":11170.468,"end":11191.739,"text":"報告委員,我們支持設計發展,所以我們編列的還不錯的預算。跟委員報告,我們藉由台灣設計研究院,整合國內的設計相關產業協會,共同來推動。每年我們投入的經費大概有六億元。"},{"start":11192.979,"end":11201.009,"text":"今年大概114年是6.03億元,主要協助產業設計創新,提高產品的附加價值。藉由補助、輔導措施,協助產業的商品或服務設計價值,以提高產品的附加價值。"},{"start":11212.063,"end":11234.461,"text":"所以委員所垂詢的我們更推動公共服務的設計改善也推動台灣設計國際的推廣因為主要我們希望把台灣能夠重新的定位重新設計台灣是一個團隊的產業我們把它整合成團隊往外服務世界的公民"},{"start":11235.353,"end":11253.449,"text":"六億的預算佔其實我們三兆的總預算裡面非常小的一部分但是其實它發揮了非常大的一個影響力因為它涉及的層面不只我們的公共建設還有公共的政策還有我們的產業面那當然了"},{"start":11253.849,"end":11280.066,"text":"今年度的台灣設計展即將在10月10號到26號在彰化縣舉辦我們也希望行政院跟我們經濟部可以大力的協助好不好是的好 謝謝莊部長那我再請教一下我們的郭部長跟我們國發會的我們的劉主委劉主委麻煩請國發會備選"},{"start":11293.354,"end":11316.528,"text":"劉主委國務長覺得那個台積電都不是他的指控師不過你國發會對於台積電有投資你也是他的董事你對他的了解應該很大吧應該還可以啦還可以啊那個我想請問現在台積電即將赴美"},{"start":11320.1,"end":11346.019,"text":"再投資三座,還是五座?六座總共呢?總共六座,再加三座嘛還有兩個Covas廠那請問,如果未來有六加二座,就是八座在美國那相關的零組件會不會都過去?"},{"start":11347.1,"end":11369.567,"text":"基本上以我個人的立場我希望過去的原因是他有需求如果這個需求被別的國家的人拿走對我們國內的產業是不利的那我們希望讓台灣的產業立足台灣放眼全球我們希望攻城掠地讓他們在美國也可以發展進而奪取美國的半導體市場"},{"start":11371.185,"end":11385.796,"text":"所以你希望其他的供應商都過去嗎我也跟委員報告一下我們在半導體的化學材料已經做到純度世界第一所以現在其實美國的大廠也發現台灣的產品的優良也開始跟台灣買"},{"start":11387.185,"end":11411.374,"text":"在沒有台積電的情況下已經有兩家廠商已經到了美國去設廠賣給Intel所以我們希望幫助台灣的產業鏈能夠再放遠全球尤其在兩個部分第一個是材料的部分第二個是設備的部分這是我們目前的短板我們希望讓它進入全球然後放大整個產業的發展這是我們供應鏈任性的一環但是國內非常多的業者"},{"start":11414.184,"end":11429.683,"text":"會擔心的是如果我們全部都移到美國去了那台灣剩下什麼我們剩下關鍵技術跟最新的製程以及我們的研發能力因為我們會把它留下來"},{"start":11430.986,"end":11445.997,"text":"報告委員 不是台灣的產業移到美國去我們是工程列定我們是護國神山的周遭我們護國神山都移到美國去了護國神山的周遭也有一些是我們最先進的技術如果只有護國神山去"},{"start":11446.497,"end":11467.234,"text":"我們的技術沒有去他在那邊重新開發會造成回頭跟我們這裡的相關產業變成競爭所以主要的意思是護國神山去我們相關配合的供應鏈產商也要去保持我們永遠在護國神山以及旁邊隨時供應鏈各種供應鏈上的領先地位到底去多少"},{"start":11468.514,"end":11496.173,"text":"這個我要通過何人的評估這個去多少是民間自己的意志我們現在沒辦法評估等他到經濟部申請的時候我們就會很清楚那去了一部分好了那留在台灣的是最關鍵的技術你能確保他會持續的壯大嗎我們要要求所有的廠商保持台灣關鍵領先的地位保持台灣關鍵技術的地位劉主委"},{"start":11498.218,"end":11519.869,"text":"廠商要壯大一定要有市場我說台積電在台灣會繼續壯大嗎這個位置的董事長在總統吳德記者會講得很清楚在台灣的投資沒有改變11個廠沒有改變這他有講得很清楚報告委員這個是這樣子就是說到美國去他生產的不是最先進的"},{"start":11520.799,"end":11536.665,"text":"他希望是最先進的但是台積電他這個公司來講他不可能沒有把握的東西就在那邊生產所以他需要台灣的供應鏈這個也就是說我們總統最近在呼籲的希望把半導體這個供應鏈能夠大家"},{"start":11541.387,"end":11566.779,"text":"有一個聯盟的倡議所以我們現在經濟部就是在幫助台灣的廠商然後再結合國內外的所有半導體供應鏈的廠商能夠在台灣做最先進的研發當研發都落在台灣的時候我相信不管在不一定是在美國全球各地要發展半導體的他一定要來找我們"},{"start":11567.059,"end":11593.834,"text":"那是不是因為在美國的廠那到底有沒有辦法就是說那麼快的生產還是他建廠的過程就會有問題跟委員報告就我個人專業的這個經驗來講蓋一座廠這麼先進的一座廠如果沒有經驗去蓋那麼他肯定要花三年的時間"},{"start":11595.455,"end":11621.062,"text":"那美國也沒有台灣建廠的這樣的一個過去的經驗所以他剛開始蓋第一個廠就像這個魏董事長講的他吃盡苦頭我相信他蓋第二個廠可能會有一些進步不過還是沒有辦法借重台灣的經驗的話所以他才講說那我可能要一千個人過去來協助他順利所以我們可以看得出來"},{"start":11622.182,"end":11636.993,"text":"也就是說它可能四年內它怎麼樣加快速度但是受限於當地的建築開發廠商或者是這些建築廠商是不是有辦法在四年內蓋出來這些廠"},{"start":11640.336,"end":11664.888,"text":"這個是不是那麼容易可以做得到的一件事情那如果我們現在就是連台積電他這樣子的就是一個已經在那裡有廠的公司他都沒有辦法有就是說能夠按照他預期的去蓋廠那未來我們如果有更多的供應鏈過去的時候那我們的廠商是不是"},{"start":11665.848,"end":11686.721,"text":"所以供應鏈它會有選擇以現在就是說我不一定要在美國生產我在台灣製造完了以後然後送到美國去然後做最後一個製程最後一個製程很重要就是說半導體它在捷徑的環境裡面去製造所以我相信很多的廠商會把Last Mile放在那裡做Cleaning"},{"start":11687.361,"end":11703.139,"text":"所有的Cleaning都是包括Components包括所有的Special Parts包括他穿上Operator所穿的這個無塵衣無塵帽無塵鞋子這一些東西都是需要Cleaning我相信Cleaning的廠商一定會過去"},{"start":11704.11,"end":11717.681,"text":"但是其他的因為任何一個供應鏈的廠商他大概一條生產線是半導體晶圓生產線的十倍大所以對他來講這個量台積電將來在那邊蓋六個廠"},{"start":11722.085,"end":11747.37,"text":"跟六個廠的量大概只可以滿足供應鏈一個小廠的生產量所以廠商今天到美國去他沒有義務去他要能夠賺錢他才會去所以我們認為可能會有一些最後的製程最後的需求可能會過去但是那個必須要市場夠大"},{"start":11748.65,"end":11769.893,"text":"但是美國確實太大了這個在亞利桑那下一個市場一定是在德州德州那邊有很多半導體的公司但是相距大概有兩千公里所以我在想一般台灣的供應鏈廠商都非常的小型小型的廠商對海外的經驗第一不足"},{"start":11770.393,"end":11796.658,"text":"第二個他的財務也會有困難第三個人才也有限所以你要現在把他帶過去其實沒有那麼簡單即使美國這樣的要求但是我想台灣的供應鏈廠商沒有那麼容易去移動這個是可以跟委員分享的部分所以我們認為台灣的廠商他一定會在重視他有市場的地方才會製造"},{"start":11798.018,"end":11816.258,"text":"但是供應的方法不一定只有在當地製造供應的方法也可能在台灣製造然後透過Logistics運送快速的運送送到滿足客戶的需求這個部分在我們過去的經驗上面都看到這樣的一個結果所以跟委員報告就是說比較專業的報告的話"},{"start":11817.739,"end":11843.181,"text":"我們尊重國內的供應商那麼他們如果有意願去發展這個美國的市場包括我剛才講的可能是生產完了以後可以賣給德州的廠商或者賣給這個華盛頓州的廠商等等但是他要有意願第一個意願他的意願一定建立在他是有獲利的這個情境下才會去那經濟部的立場就是幫助他"},{"start":11843.982,"end":11858.906,"text":"能夠快速的出海快速的落地然後能夠賺錢我要他的目的是他能夠賺到錢所以我們現在經濟部跟美國在談的也就是說不重複課稅也就是說這個不重複課稅不重複課稅雙重課稅談到哪裡了"},{"start":11864.708,"end":11884.241,"text":"現在眾議院已經過了現在參議院在備對經濟部來講的話就是幫助廠商能夠很穩健的在美國建立其他生產的態勢所以我想委員關心的這個命題是非常的重要"},{"start":11884.801,"end":11900.303,"text":"但是我們的供應商因為都太小型了小型的供應商非常的多所以他們會衡量自己的能力這裡面包括雖然有市場但是所以沒有能力過去的未來就要瞌睡是不是"},{"start":11902.661,"end":11925.439,"text":"我們現在跟美國在談,另外一方面保護,我們也跟美國在談,是不是在半導體能夠跟台灣一樣,台灣現在在科學園區裡面所有進口的材料、設備、零件等等是免稅的,所以我們也希望美國那邊就這一方面來講,"},{"start":11927.421,"end":11946.607,"text":"他也能夠免稅這個是我想作為我們將來談判的一個非常重要的一個關鍵好那我們知道經濟部也在推動了就是自駕車的相關的計畫在張濱工業區裡面有張濱鹿港觀光的接駁案那我想要請問現在自駕車他除了"},{"start":11950.868,"end":11975.911,"text":"可以在因為張濱工業區裡面他是一個比較人比較稀少的但是有沒有辦法在像彰化市啊像彰化市在八卦山旁邊他交通比較繁忙的區域有沒有可能在這樣子相關的區域一般來講我們希望不影響這個所有的城市的動作動態所以這個測試呢可以在晚上"},{"start":11976.651,"end":11989.976,"text":"夜間在某一個區塊固定的區塊我們經過公告這個當然要地方政府能夠配合因為畢竟現在已經從電動車要發展成自駕車了這也是未來整個AI的"},{"start":11997.959,"end":12020.028,"text":"就是相關的發展的一個趨勢如果永遠都只有在觀光區在工業區裡面那這樣子就沒有辦法發展成一個他這個需要跟委員報告就是說他在工業區或者在實驗區裡面他有安全的考量所以當你這個智慧城市"},{"start":12021.148,"end":12048.03,"text":"這個周邊配套的都已經完備了以後那麼我們自駕車就放到這個智慧城市的這個區域裡面去進行這個事情我想我們現在有很多的這個配合也就是說每個地方他要做智慧城市的這個開發跟研發那麼我們自駕車當然就是其中的一部分那麼在還沒有得到這個地方政府的配合情況之下自駕車只能在自己的有安全"},{"start":12048.891,"end":12049.573,"text":"無綠的場域裡面來做實驗"},{"start":12053.987,"end":12079.724,"text":"你認為什麼時候我們的自駕車可以發展成在馬路上因為畢竟還有我們的產業什麼時候可以切入自駕車因為現在其實我們知道的我們電動車在發展的過程當中因為零組件的減少導致於我們現在電動車相關的產業大家也面臨到一個生產的瓶頸"},{"start":12080.484,"end":12095.714,"text":"那未來又是自駕車的這樣子一個時代那台灣怎麼切進去那怎麼樣子能夠讓我們就是台灣相關的零組件的廠商能夠及早佈局能夠切入這個相關的這個產業鏈裡面"},{"start":12098.429,"end":12112.825,"text":"報告委員因為台灣的市場其實還不夠大所以我們建議台灣在做自駕車的廠商他要做成EMS也就是說幫人家做代工不是自己的品牌"},{"start":12113.425,"end":12141.253,"text":"但是是共同的它可以生產因為有生產的經濟的量出來以後那麼我們台灣做這些零組件的廠商就會有很大的量它可以降低成本那台灣因為這樣子的話替別人替有品牌的公司來代工製造的話這裡面呢我們可以得到比較高的這個利益因為為什麼因為我們幾乎啊自駕車裡面所用的電子零組件這個都是我們台灣擁有非常高的優勢"},{"start":12142.293,"end":12165.044,"text":"那第二個做EMS代工的這個產業在台灣來講已經非常的成熟台灣的EMS會得到世界啊任何的這個有品牌公司的讚許主要是我們具有速度又好 謝謝謝一鳳委員的資訊謝謝卓院長 相關部會首長的備詢"},{"start":12170.37,"end":12188.161,"text":"歡迎各位現在在議場二樓旁聽的來自屏東潮州長津協會的好朋友熱情歡迎歡迎各位我們上午的質詢到此為止本次會議沒有委員提出臨時提案我們不進行臨時提案的處理下午兩點三十分繼續開會進行質詢先來休息"},{"start":12286.749,"end":12287.363,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":14030.1,"end":14031.067,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":14686.056,"end":14686.766,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MANGA"},{"start":14965.889,"end":14966.315,"text":"由 Amara.org 社群提供的字幕"},{"start":21603.837,"end":21606.098,"text":"報言會我們現在繼續開會進行質詢我們接著請陳廷飛委員請質詢謝謝院長我們請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":21633.086,"end":21652.467,"text":"林委員好我們零一二一的地震在第一時間其實我們就已經要求要比照零四零三花蓮地震災害的重建的標準來處理那現在也已經都開始"},{"start":21653.027,"end":21671.419,"text":"已經進入到在核發所有的一些補助款的部分紅單黃單但是確實速度有一點緩慢因為我們必須要經由土木技師結構技師建築師工會然後去做一些負評的動作那當然"},{"start":21672.941,"end":21685.316,"text":"現在還有一個問題其實從過去到現在都存在的我想今天剛好要拿出來跟我們院長還有我們內政部來討論一下就是說我們紅單跟黃單"},{"start":21688.36,"end":21714.226,"text":"我們一般的建物現在的這個復平之後都沒有問題金融土木技師結構技師跟建築師他們復平之後那麼依照他們給予的建議來做一些補助或是指引我們這間房子的一個重建方向那現在問題來了我讓我們的院長看一下其實"},{"start":21715.905,"end":21741.205,"text":"在這些圖片當中這是紅單你看在外面貼了一個紅單這個是牆面嚴重裂開這是紅單再來我們看黃單地基結構下陷然後還有屋頂磚瓦破裂漏水還有我們的樑柱受損甚至是輕鋼架受損這些都是黃單那麼院長"},{"start":21745.041,"end":21769.159,"text":"這是我們的廟宇我們的廟宇可是我們的廟宇如同一般的建物被貼了紅單跟黃單但是他們拿不到補助因為他們被認為是民宅所以沒有辦法拿到補助可是這是不公平的因為他們基本上也是建物"},{"start":21770.831,"end":21789.103,"text":"可是又因為他們當成廟宇所以他們沒有辦法得到補助連一點點都拿不到從過去其實都存在這個問題我覺得對這些廟宇其實是不公平的因為現在是"},{"start":21791.238,"end":21817.753,"text":"心情堅強 她也是用她的頭部這樣一撥一撥這樣伸起來就因為她她是護世的心靈所以她不能拿到寶座所以院長 我覺得這是極度不公平而且這一次 你知道在台南我們說真的就是眾神之都而且在我們這一次南西獄警"},{"start":21818.988,"end":21825.935,"text":"大內在這麼多東山這些地方在山區其實廟宇非常的多所以現在大家挨挨叫明明他們已經被貼了紅單跟黃單"},{"start":21835.728,"end":21862.62,"text":"沒有貼的我們不說就憑著已經被我們相關土木機師結構機師貼了紅單跟黃單就憑這樣他們也拿不到主院長我們是不是應該要思考一下他也是建物啦他只是生命的大但是他家裡人有可能比我們平常人還多"},{"start":21865.171,"end":21885.658,"text":"所以這個部分該怎麼辦謝謝陳委員當初地震之後0121之後委員跟著很多委員跟著我我們跑了好多地方大家很清楚的了解地方的狀況那為什麼這個整個核定的時間會比較慢因為紅單照我手上的資料現在500多件"},{"start":21887.539,"end":21902.369,"text":"黃丹也1600多件其實院長關鍵在哪裡你知道因為在0121之後餘陣又特別多所以我們是做了第二次第一次完我們又做第二次我們為了慎重起見慎重起見也進行了很詳細的負評也謝謝三大工會"},{"start":21906.312,"end":21925.231,"text":"香港大公會一而再的那工程會我也一直要求他一定要核實那至於說我們這個是針對受災住宅的一個補貼啦所以剛剛委員所說的才會有那種狀況那現在整個執行開始執行以及過程當中怎麼樣去面對剛剛委員所說的這樣的狀況是不是請劉部長來說明一下"},{"start":21928.903,"end":21957.012,"text":"謝謝陳委員對於廟宇的關心原來我們在0121的這個地震的時候呢所做的不管是重建啊修繕都是針對有住人的住宅的補貼或者是修繕等等這些我想委員非常清楚那如果是跟公共建築有關包括學校農會的話他各有原來的目的事業主管機關來幫忙那有關廟宇的部分第一個他有沒有登記有案或者是說他原來在建的時候呢那裡面沒有住人那我想我是不是請我們自己的總理司啊"},{"start":21958.153,"end":21983.929,"text":"來跟委員這邊聯繫一下如果有廟宇的需要有修建的補助的話我們來看看用什麼樣的檢討方式可以來協助他們但是我們首要的部分是在於地震之後對於有住人的部分不要有危險產生那現在委員所提示出來不管他是紅單還是黃單還是急需要協助的話我們來看看有什麼樣的方案可以比照基本上這裡面都會有住人"},{"start":21984.95,"end":22006.125,"text":"他並不是其實在山區的廟宇他們都會有住持或是會有在地方負責的人因為他在山區他如果是有合格的建物的話我們會按照合格建物或是住宅的修繕補貼的方向來處理那是不是我們再盤點一下看看用什麼樣的方式可以解決災民的困擾"},{"start":22008.507,"end":22030.762,"text":"陳書偉說明報告委員那麼1月21號的地震台南市政府在2月6號就已經有公告那公告的部分就是說紅單黃單裡面如果涉及到要重建要拆除的那麼他就補助呢按照台南市的相關的自治條例類似徵收自治條例"},{"start":22032.103,"end":22048.718,"text":"技師去評了多少百分之百就補助那修善跟補強的也是百分之百就是完全有技師那麼去去負評是因為我們有0206的這個善款所以這個部分沒有問題那其中只有一副呢結構比較問題"},{"start":22050.399,"end":22077.504,"text":"要做補強而且不用拆除這部分內政部也答應這一戶的部分內政部會來協助至於剛才委員所講的廟宇我想因為我們是善款給非公共設施道路學校這個主管機關廟宇的部分我想如果是主管機關是內政的話我想內政部會針對廟宇的部分比照"},{"start":22078.464,"end":22087.077,"text":"台南市政府的公告內容給予協助因為廟宇比較不一樣因為出入的人其實非常多"},{"start":22088.188,"end":22115.37,"text":"他可能危險性會比一般如果你沒有給他一些協助他只是期待就是說為什麼一般我們的所謂房屋的紅單黃單有所謂的補助可是為什麼在廟宇當中就沒有那我覺得說剛剛部長所說的很清楚了那我們會請民政局因為現在民政局他有報了一個計畫上來可是我覺得那個計畫可能對你們來講很難"},{"start":22118.032,"end":22143.505,"text":"能夠容納所以我覺得要重新盤點之後把一些實質能夠去協助幫助的否則當時候其實我們從過去很多地震所造成廟宇的損害只要不是古蹟他就沒有辦法得到補助那現在這一次會比較嚴重是因為剛好在山區山區我們在很多的廟宇都在山區"},{"start":22144.969,"end":22154.169,"text":"所以這一次在整個地震之後廟宇的受害非常嚴重所以你才會看到有這麼多的紅單黃單而且實質他們有去看"},{"start":22155.718,"end":22181.822,"text":"這些紅灘黃灘表示這些結構技師、土木技師、建築師都去看了確實有立即危險可是沒有辦法處理我覺得我們應該站在協助的立場看怎麼在這個部分用專案來幫忙可能這個對於未來我們的這些公共安全會更有幫助所以這個部分再拜託院長、拜託部長還有拜託我們的主委大家共同努力"},{"start":22182.162,"end":22207.542,"text":"好 再一次謝謝那這個部分我會請民政局再重新做一個盤點出來謝謝你請劉部長進一步去了解謝謝那院長我想這是非常嚴肅的問題這個馬上會遇到是因為今年今年的冷氣團特別不一樣到現在三月份還有冷氣團聽說還有一波冷氣團是"},{"start":22210.635,"end":22228.532,"text":"是因為這個樣子 所以大家感受不到可是我們很擔心 這種天氣變化它的一個極速性 極冷極熱所以當如果到五月六月極熱的時候現在大家開始在吵 電價怎麼辦"},{"start":22230.799,"end":22249.925,"text":"我們當時候其實在112年我們也因為要穩定電價因為現在燃料國際燃料的價格是非常恐怖的在整個國際間其實是居高不下的所以在這個狀態之下我們一直在112年我們又增資1500億以後特別預算撥補500億用這樣的方式然後在113年我們原本"},{"start":22260.949,"end":22276.779,"text":"預估我們要追加預算一千億但是已經出委員會了因為我在經濟委員會我非常清楚出委員會囉現在代協商再來今年的根本不用說啦就直接被砍掉"},{"start":22278.407,"end":22304.305,"text":"院長我很擔心原來我們希望藉著這個撥補因為這不應該是轉嫁在人民的身上我們用撥補來抑制這個店家這樣的一個所謂難以控制的一個方向但是我們現在從去年到今年我們的撥補都已經包括追加預算撥補都被刪掉甚至還在協商這怎麼辦"},{"start":22306.559,"end":22335.098,"text":"這個電價怎麼辦大家開始擔心了謝謝委員一直支持中央政府總預算的內容也一直關心台電我在這裡也代表台電28000名同仁向委員表示感謝我們對於電價的考慮一直是從反應成本照顧民生穩定物價節能減碳以及使用者付費這樣的原則來看那其中會看到照顧民生穩定物價是其中兩個相當重要"},{"start":22336.039,"end":22357.134,"text":"我們當然不是我們來決定電價是電價審議委員會但是我想院也好部也好跟台電都會用這樣的原則來做內部充分的討論我們絕對不希望造成民生物價的大幅的波動或是內心的一種驚慌所以我也請郭部長好好的把這個"},{"start":22358.675,"end":22369.393,"text":"狀況收集條件收集分析好之後有期有時間到了需要提供給電力駕駛委員會的時候國保黨自然會用這樣的原則去做溝通我希望能夠平穩大家的心情"},{"start":22369.773,"end":22391.423,"text":"院長這個很重要因為我們現在開始在下鄉我們在討論這個總預算的問題跟大家知道我們未來我們國家的方向可能我會被總預算去卡到可是我想這就是最現實的從去年的追加"},{"start":22392.233,"end":22399.32,"text":"沒有出我們的大院然後到我們的撥補又被刪掉這個東西"},{"start":22403.091,"end":22423.198,"text":"這兩千億的問題怎麼辦 怎麼辦所以現在大家都在問 啊 委員啊 啊我們五月份六月份 啊我們的電價要怎麼樣大家很擔心 就像剛剛院長所說的 我們不能讓大家恐慌因為我們的電價會影響到物價"},{"start":22424.538,"end":22450.773,"text":"這個一上去就回不來了所以為什麼我們一直希望說我們台電的撥補很重要因為在國際的燃料整個的價格不是我們控制的我們不能因為這樣影響到我們的電價甚至在影響到我們的物價所以我們在每一次經濟委員會在審議的時候甚至在質詢的時候我都支持一定要撥補"},{"start":22452.125,"end":22476.057,"text":"可是郭部長他也要考慮到台電的財政健全跟結構我們會從這個先從財務面來協助台電能夠穩定然後再從其他的應該要努力的從創電然後到這個售電來分離我想我們希望在這個撥補的部分能夠"},{"start":22478.319,"end":22501.879,"text":"彌補過去因為照顧民生而產生的這些債務所以我們希望這個撥補還是要請求大院能夠給我們這些輔助因為院長其實在過去我想在經濟委員會很清楚我們1000億你們也只刪了30億但是現在送到大院來"},{"start":22502.62,"end":22524.861,"text":"可能這個地方被整個刪除我們覺得是希望能夠再繼續溝通然後希望這個大院能夠同意再給我們補支部長我們在審這個預算的時候你也在現場我們光為了這個我們論述了多久啊結果我們那麼認真在經濟委員會審然後在大院大筆一揮就把我們刪掉那請問我們經濟委員審幹嘛"},{"start":22527.388,"end":22551.931,"text":"這個是民生問題耶不是政治問題所以我們真的拜託要好好審視這個部分因為沒有撥補我們很怕好謝謝陳廷輝委員質詢 謝謝卓院長各部會長 謝謝接下來我們請廖先祥委員請質詢"},{"start":22568.305,"end":22571.626,"text":"好謝謝主席麻煩請卓院長麻煩請卓院長再次備詢院長午安那我今天的質詢大概幾個方向這個幕僚可以先準備一下沒關係首先會先跟您討論這個地方的軌道建設接下來可能是台六十二延伸的問題然後再來台大金山分院的這個"},{"start":22596.869,"end":22622.867,"text":"這個擴建那最後白袍乎 汐止白袍乎的問題那接下來可能還會再跟你討論這個台積電問題啦我今天的順序大概是這樣子喔那也先讓幕僚知道可以先做一些我們希望有一些實質的討論啦那第一個就是我們的軌道建設啦我想先請教院長我們通案性的問題通案性的問題就是財化法通過之後原則上我們行政院補助地方的軌道建設的補助比例應該也會有所調整嘛 對不對"},{"start":22624.287,"end":22644.267,"text":"財化法通過之後現在依照新修正的財化法從中央要少掉3753億那3753億從哪裡來總不能憑空掉下來所以一定會重新核定跟一些地方的補助的案件甚至順序 時間 內容都要重新再看過所以我跟院長確認一下"},{"start":22645.288,"end":22659.894,"text":"新的案子用新的補助辦法這個我可以理解地方拿到更多錢負擔更多我都贊成所以剛剛院長的意思是已經核定的案件可能也會重新的拿出來審視一下補助的比例跟起承的問題是嗎"},{"start":22660.854,"end":22686.1,"text":"我會要求重新再來看看有需要調整可以調整而且必須調整的方法所以所有的案子你們都會調整那我了解OK那沒問題那我今天開始先第一個討論我們汐止汐止的軌道建設第一個我們汐止的軌道建設大概分成兩條線兩條線就是過去的汐止民生線跟基隆捷運那分三個部分因為汐止民生線差離一半就是從汐止到東湖先做東湖到大稻埕"},{"start":22688.2,"end":22714.045,"text":"目前還沒有準備要動工那汐止到東湖這一段預計要在後天3月20號新北市政府就要辦實質的這個主體工程的動工典禮了啦那這個一條線原本有十多站那當初可能因為種種的原因所以切開一半汐止這一邊 汐止到東湖先做那現在台北市也有意願要接續後續的一個工程就是從 也不是工程 就是規劃從東湖大到老城 他們現在也開始規劃了"},{"start":22715.345,"end":22733.039,"text":"那一條線當初被切了一半效益一定是比較差的那我請教院長您會不會也是認同這樣的觀念一條線應該要整條的來規劃才會是比較有效益的未來也是會建議地方政府積極的來把他們應該做的工作來完成來給地方 來給中央政府進行審議"},{"start":22734.22,"end":22760.158,"text":"細節我請部長講 但我現在表示由此更看得出來很多的相關工程 軌道 跨年度的 跨縣市的由各縣市去做不見得是非常順暢的一件事情中央統一來規劃 計劃性的來規劃才是國家整體建設的發展有過相關的論述我覺得也是有部分是正確的是報告委員 過去會有這樣子的狀況是因為"},{"start":22760.778,"end":22786.514,"text":"新北市政府跟台北市政府大家所持的立場對這背景我知道我只是想問一下我們的方向是不是支持地方政府來繼續來推動那當然地方政府該做的功課當然要做好嗎其實民生繫紙線這一段也相當的有需要啦所以這個部分我們當然希望可以整段一起來規劃那過去的台北市政府或許他沒有這樣子的意願不過現在的台北市政府他們有這樣子的意願我覺得新北市政府跟台北市政府要好好去談"},{"start":22787.034,"end":22811.077,"text":"好,所以我想大家的方向都一樣,那各自要努力,大家就各自努力,好謝謝那另外一個是我們的基隆捷運,因為過去這個基隆捷運的一開始我們行政院核定的方案是700億嘛那前兩天有新聞出來,就大概新北市政府目前原本要送給中央的是1200億嘛,對不對那當然我們現在交通部建議他先依照700億來先送省嘛,這是700億,核定的部分先做加快來啟程"},{"start":22811.818,"end":22838.035,"text":"但是後續還是有這500億的差距啦我們先不討論這個補助集聚的問題這個是整個行政院的方針的問題那我有去跟新北市政府了解那大概500億的差距大概有以下幾項分別是我們這個暫停的一個設計啦過去可能是簡易的後車停那他們就提升標準為中運量的標準設置包括我們的廁所這個收費閘門等等的那包括我們無障礙電梯啊我們手扶梯等等他可能會新增這些項目"},{"start":22838.735,"end":22860.328,"text":"那以及有部分的基隆的路段可能因為跟台鐵路線競合的關係他必須要從平面改成高架還有當然第三點就是大家都會遇到的問題原物料波動的問題那這個就這三項那新北市政府就是可能他們在預估未來在招標的時候可能會實際上要到1200億才能夠把整體的工程來完成那我想確認一下我們這個"},{"start":22861.869,"end":22870.676,"text":"行政院跟交通部的態度只要我們的地方政府核實了編列沒有服報那我們是不是會繼續願意支持他後續的修正計畫"},{"start":22875.704,"end":22892.944,"text":"這段的捷運其實中央相當的支持我們也希望能夠做好不過當時核定的金額是六百多億快七百億那現在新北市政府拿出一個一千兩百多億的預算而且他沒有經過修正計畫的過程直接就拿出來了那這個對交通部來講會"},{"start":22894.906,"end":22912.973,"text":"他們會依照修正我認為他應該依照正軌就是走修正的這個方案修正的計畫提出來之後交通部自然會來審有沒有哪個部分是不合理的如果是合理的話這個方向是大家都希望能夠推動的基隆的捷運是大家都希望推動的所以我們也會來幫忙"},{"start":22914.053,"end":22932.661,"text":"基隆捷運會繼續的來推動不會因為這可能增加的這可能要給更好的一個搭乘體驗而增加出來的金額而可能去把它中止方向應該是一樣的那當然必須要做的這個地方政府要做的計畫跟中央的審核那就是照程序來走我們中央會繼續支持這個案子嘛"},{"start":22933.241,"end":22952.283,"text":"要看他提出來的修正合不合理目前我完全沒有看到修正的計畫只有看到一個一千兩百多億的預算合定的過程當中包含之前在審這個可行性評估的時候其實新北市政府也都參與在內啊為什麼現在會突然提出一個一千兩百五到目前為止還不知道答案"},{"start":22952.674,"end":22980.322,"text":"好沒關係這個報告裡面後續應該都在提修正報告的時候都會呈現那就是我們不會因為這一天兩晚一看到就嚇到了至少我們會務實的來審查它的必要性我只要確認這一點那當然院長你也放心我說我不知道我們跟您討論過我當然對基隆捷運的規劃是有一點維持我希望有一個更好的一個部分就是部分的路線是有板南線的延伸那當然既然已經沒有辦法了我們已經定案了我也會跟行政院一樣立場跟地方政府一樣的立場"},{"start":22981.262,"end":23008.753,"text":"讓這個案子能夠進出來推動好不好那剛剛部長三個方向第一個現在沒有送到交通部任何的修正計畫所以沒有所謂打回票這件事因為沒有計畫第二個就算要送修正計畫也要合理要合理的對內容做合理的精算再來新北也好基隆市也好甚至台北市也好也要有相同都要有同樣的共識才能把這個計畫完成好沒問題地方政府現在就是先把這七百億做好"},{"start":23009.213,"end":23036.626,"text":"然後之後的修正再請行政院再協助審議那剛剛部長講的部分原則上院長大概都認同嗎交通部在程序裡面要按照執行但是一定要合理好沒問題好謝謝那軌道的建設先到這邊那接下來是我們這個台六十二線分別有延伸萬里跟萬里金山還有延伸萬里兩個方向都有延伸嘛那在去年的時候謝謝行政院在3月19號的時候合訂了那合訂了過後"},{"start":23038.878,"end":23054.834,"text":"原本計劃是今生萬里一次送交通部的方案是這樣子但是我們行政院後續合訂了到萬里的部分這是可行性評估的部分交通部也很幫忙地方的期待能夠說我們只要一條路一定是先到萬里"},{"start":23055.294,"end":23082.862,"text":"才會到金山嘛 大家都可以理解但是大家希望說未來的這個可行性的評估也都能夠納到延伸萬里的綜合規劃報告裡面在一併的討論因為這次可行就只有延伸到萬里嘛金山沒有核定那藉由到萬里的重規一併把金山的可行再重新納進來討論那這樣子的一個方向交通部有幫忙了 有這樣子在做了那我不曉得院方面是不是也支持這樣子的方向繼續來做一些相關的討論跟審核"},{"start":23085.233,"end":23112.98,"text":"好 報告委員 這個部分其實我們針對萬里的部分我們會盡量來努力在114年的2月已經提出了綜合規劃的初期報告那您在講金山的這一段我們後續會繼續來努力好啦 我也希望請院長幫忙可不可以交通部已經知道這個案子的後續的狀況那地方的需求他們當然會很審慎的去回答當然他們已經幫忙了 已經呈現在報告內了啦還是要拜託院長多多幫忙好的 謝謝可以嗎就謝謝 幫忙啦 好不好"},{"start":23115.169,"end":23127.987,"text":"我們盡全力地方的需求依照我們的專業的審核盡量的來幫忙謝謝院長那接下來台六十二線延伸到宜蘭這個比較單純因為已經交通部送到國發會了嘛那國發會也已經"},{"start":23129.847,"end":23154.071,"text":"通過了,也不是通過了,就是他們建議繼續往後續的綜合公開報告來推進目前案子已經送到行政院了你也不要請部長回答了因為案子已經在行政院了你們會簽合嗎?讓這個交通部來進行後續的綜合公開報告嗎?我們看看案的內容,同時要看未來整個中央財政跟地方如何來做分擔所以你知道要送過去了嗎?"},{"start":23155.475,"end":23176.668,"text":"我是還沒有看到可能幕僚單位還在看這沒關係院長可不可以給我一個時間你們多久以內我們回去以後趕快把這個現在流程跑到哪裡去盡快把它就在你們這邊院裡面還有院的流程給個時間好不好多久以內我沒有叫你答應而是多久時間可以可能有一個明確的回應有沒有辦法"},{"start":23178.2,"end":23189.138,"text":"我會回去馬上跟委員報告說我們現在流程到哪裡了那我們一般正常流程我們把它跑完一個月內有一個初步的方向 報告委員好不好報告委員 院長我補充一下"},{"start":23189.918,"end":23211.543,"text":"其實現在不只是總預算的問題還有才化法的問題所以整個中央包含交通部在內到底未來有多少預算可以用在交通上面的建設我們到現在還沒有很具體的把握坦白講所以對於未來的大型的建設尤其是這個比較長線的建設它的經費非常的龐大所以這個的思考我覺得或許會需要一些時間這一點跟您報告好沒關係"},{"start":23214.152,"end":23233.332,"text":"這個應該是部長講不然應該是院長講好啦 謝謝拜託院長再來看是不是在一個月之內的時間給一個初步的回應好不好 我沒有要求你一定要在一個月內核定但是我希望先了解一下我們現在院已經這個審核到什麼樣的程度這樣子剛剛的意思是說我跟委員講現在流程到哪裡那我們可能還需要什麼樣的過程其實部長講的那個是重點"},{"start":23234.614,"end":23253.369,"text":"好 謝謝交通部的案子大概就到這邊接下來討論台大金山分院的案子這個案子比較小啦台大金山分院雖然小但是對地方很重要啦先謝謝台大金山分院長期以來對北海岸鄉親的健康的照顧那也因為他們付出很多大家都評價也非常高"},{"start":23254.73,"end":23274.176,"text":"那所以台大金山分院有一個擴建計畫他們要新蓋一棟的長照機醫療綜合大樓那也經過行政院的核定了只是說你也知道院長也知道物價波動嘛有時候發包沒有那麼容易所以說照標不出去那目前台大醫院非常的幫忙教育部也幫忙就是他們可能先留用一下這個建設經費跟這個"},{"start":23276.216,"end":23294.685,"text":"設備的經費設備經費先流用到建設經費上面來但是後面還是有一些資金的缺口未來可能還是要修正的計畫原本大概十億出頭的一個經費大概只會多一億多啦那這部分是不是院長也能夠在這邊能夠幫忙一下照顧一下我們北海岸的鄉親能夠讓這個建設早日的讓他完成這樣子"},{"start":23295.665,"end":23320.454,"text":"謝德委員台大青山分院我的了解一直是一所相當有特色專業經營的一所醫院也深受地方人士所依賴健康上的維持那目前它的長照以及醫療綜合大樓興建工程原編預算總經費是13.12億但是經過兩次的流標都沒有辦法順利的來達成那至於現在預計是"},{"start":23323.128,"end":23330.449,"text":"3月已經又繼續上網公告了預計在4月還要進行以後就會進行5月進行開標"},{"start":23331.372,"end":23357.461,"text":"4月截止5月進行開標我們當然希望這個開標能夠順利他們會很幫忙先上網公報招標但是經費的缺口還是在後續還是會送修正的計畫因為現在是編13.1而已再拜託我們的院長以後如果說教育部送修正計畫上來的時候再拜訪我們的院長能夠多多支持讓工程能夠不希望他順利開標順利開標完之後我們只要有缺口我們行政院都會支持我可以這樣理解嗎"},{"start":23358.456,"end":23364.242,"text":"我今天跟你很理性的討論院長我們就不要扯那些我今天跟你還蠻愉快的那接下來我要討論這個白袍湖的事情"},{"start":23378.666,"end":23397.185,"text":"好 這個白袍戶的案子啦 這個年初總預算的時候我有刪除預算嘛 這個院長多少可能也有注意到一個民意代表刪了地方的預算 你老實講我有沒有壓力 我當然有壓力啊但是為了地方好 我相信我一定比院長 我一定比寧正部比規劃的人都還了解細節我為了說這樣子的計畫有調整的空間"},{"start":23401.417,"end":23416.536,"text":"社宅在國外經驗非常多年所以他們也會有一些指引社宅挑選的地點非常重要所以說包括聯合國以及OECD都有一些指引希望說它與既有的社區或者是透過都市開發的手段"},{"start":23418.438,"end":23438.087,"text":"與鄰近的住宅去做結合但是我們白袍湖的社宅它是用這個造政的方式那當然造政裡面可能你們還加了一些運動設施或者是社福設施等等的但是你們畢竟還是讀書一格的社會住宅那它可能就會產生了國外長期以來過去發生的這個因為孤立性導致標籤化的問題那這一點我們的規劃單位其實一直都沒有詳盡的說明"},{"start":23443.649,"end":23470.359,"text":"那包括還有其他的問題可能交通的問題啊當初原本的規劃我記得不是一千戶現在原本的後來修正到一千戶原本是兩千戶也是因為交通的問題所以說規劃單位自己有去說的他們也知道這個問題但是實際的交通影響評估也還沒有出來那包括其實預算去年就編了嘛那今年一月內政部自己內部的會議其實還在進行當中很多的老師都有提出許多的意見就是"},{"start":23471.739,"end":23482.444,"text":"我認為整個過程還沒有經過完善的一個討論那就可能非常匆忙的一個上路那所以說我就是有提案把這個預算刪除那在這邊先跟院長跟部長做一個討論我希望說這個案子"},{"start":23487.298,"end":23511.744,"text":"後續的規劃你們目前還是要依照原定的規劃再編一次預算嗎還是說你們願意跟我或是地方再多一點的討論來討論我們白袍屋這塊地到底要怎麼使用才是最恰當的我個人的意見當然是希望說之前部長應該比較清楚我希望說能夠引入一些作為產業的園區因為產業園區它的交通的方向性不一樣它比較不會造成地方交通的問題"},{"start":23513.584,"end":23541.841,"text":"那包括可能輝達在找地點啊可能台積電也在拜託總統嘛都是需要大面積的一個土地我覺得都可以去評估看看不一定說一定能成或者是這是最好的方案但是我就希望說能夠有一些多一些的討論那不曉得我們現在院或者部的立場現在目前是怎麼樣首先很遺憾這個社宅的這個預算被刪除掉之後現在而且刪除的結果產生了不合理的狀況那至於我們當然還是希望努力"},{"start":23542.902,"end":23562.869,"text":"努力能夠讓社宅的這個興建有它的時機的能夠興建的完成但是如果沒有辦法的話那內政部是要改變過去的計畫或是要怎麼做我們請部長來說明其實我先回答院長啦社宅我當然個人非常知我一上任就找了很多的地點在幫忙找地點我相信國家住住中心也非常清楚這個問題"},{"start":23563.829,"end":23581.462,"text":"我推薦的多少地點給國家住住中心去設置只是我對於地點的選擇跟內政部可能有一些不一樣的意見好不好我在這邊再補充說明一下我們在評估的時候其實新北市政府已經同意我們的想法希望在白袍湖的地方設置社宅而且做一個生態園區他們要生態園區啦"},{"start":23585.936,"end":23607.794,"text":"很遺憾的就是說總共被刪除了一億六千萬所以包括設宅的興建簡列一千戶或者是生態園區的工程現在完全停擺那這個預算到底未來能不能通過我們都不知道然後再來就是委員所提到的說要變成運動員或運動產業中心到目前為止我們還沒有看到新北市政府是不是同意這樣的方向"},{"start":23608.374,"end":23630.415,"text":"那再來委員有提到說未來要讓台積電來設廠等等這些如果只有一個18.95公頃的地方台積電要設廠這個土地的面積未免太小所以我是覺得根本就是退回原來重新再考量我覺得很可惜原來新北市政府跟我們的國土署已經講好做設宅而且是做個小造鎮那在上一次委員在質詢的時候其實我們也把這個計畫"},{"start":23632.336,"end":23654.303,"text":"那委員雖然說有不同的見解,但是基本上我們原先會覺得是繼續往前走但是沒有想到這次在預算的時候全部被刪除,再加上一六千萬之外還有一個三百萬是被倒扣回來的,也就是說全部都刪除之外還有個三百萬,我們還要再付三百萬的支出所以我覺得這個計畫到目前為止大概是完全停擺當中"},{"start":23655.103,"end":23680.171,"text":"沒關係,那未來的土地利用你們還有沒有要做相關的討論會不會把地方的民意,包括我本人的意見大家一起集思廣益,一起來把這塊土地做最完善的利用包括社宅,我當初有表明立場除了社宅,你的社福設施就是長照的或者是運動等等的,這些我都支持嘛但我就是對於社宅的責點我認為它應該要在大眾運輸旁邊,包括在氣質的"},{"start":23681.391,"end":23691.06,"text":"火車站旁邊我都建議你們應該要去做一些規劃我想這個目標方向都是一樣的那未來的規劃我想確認一下你們還會不會去做後續的討論那會不會有機會來做一個重新的規劃"},{"start":23696.76,"end":23718.476,"text":"報告委員,如果我們所有的預算都被刪減掉的話,我覺得我們現在先不要輕舉妄動就是說如果沒有預算,我們怎麼再重新規劃或者重新評估你今天沒預算嘛,你當初規劃是幾年前就開始規劃的,那時候有預算嗎?幾年前開始規劃是幾百萬,剛剛我跟委員報告的部分所以說現在開始規劃,重新討論,討一個大家都支持的方向"},{"start":23719.741,"end":23746.768,"text":"然後之後再依序來規劃所有的公共工程建設都本來就是這樣子哪一個案子一開始規劃就有錢那可能會拖比較長一點的時間也請委員多多支持所以你們還是要堅持白袍湖就是按照原定的計畫在推動嗎我相信中間的新北市政府他們在評估規劃的時候跟我們國土署有專業的考量跟參考台北新北市政府就是要那個生態園區而已啦好 沒關係我在這邊跟你做理性的討論今天我們能夠這樣很理性的討論公共政策很好"},{"start":23747.248,"end":23772.69,"text":"是不是我們原編的計畫能夠請內政部跟委員在座溝通說明是要加強什麼樣的功能在裡面或是做什麼樣的調整最好是能夠讓這個設宅的計畫能夠在這裡能夠落實下去那周遭的一些如果可以微調的話我們來跟委員商量對地方有利的對未來發展好的委員長承諾了我就相信您那後續就拜託內政部多多的我們這邊再做接洽"},{"start":23774.711,"end":23786.82,"text":"接下來大家互相溝通一下我不想在這邊做任何吵架地方的事情一吵架了就沒有共識了這也不是我願意的先謝謝院長,謝謝部長接下來我想討論一下台積電的問題這個問題可能會比較刺激一點"},{"start":23795.902,"end":23808.405,"text":"我先跟院長確認一下美國總統川普就任之後對美國貿易逆差大的國家提出了很多課徵關稅提高關稅的做法這樣子的做法您認同嗎"},{"start":23810.258,"end":23826.091,"text":"任何一個國家平衡自己的貿易都應該是他對外經貿政策其中很重要的一部分這也是雙方平等互惠互相幫忙互相成長互相發展平等互惠我支持啦你汽車課我多少我課你多少對大家一樣嘛但不能夠因為貿易逆差"},{"start":23827.452,"end":23841.718,"text":"關稅是一回事貿易逆差是一回事貿易順差還是逆差這是大家的本事怎麼可以用關稅的這個手段來要求別人一定要什麼我賺你錢就要還你錢這樣的道理我個人是非常不支持院長你要幫美國講話"},{"start":23843.478,"end":23865.005,"text":"我說每個國家都會把這件問題當作重要那麼要去如何平衡貿易有很多的路徑跟手段方法很多大家選擇各種不同的方式那因為美國先前也對墨西哥跟加拿大有一些新聞你都有看到嘛提高關稅你來我往什麼的那我們有沒有內部我們討論過假設美國也對我們中華民國對我們台灣"},{"start":23866.465,"end":23884.804,"text":"提出了一些不合理的關稅的加成我們要怎麼因應有沒有討論過模擬過沙盤推演所以美國對外的一些關係也引起不同國家不同的反應有的比較激烈但是至少現在對我們來講我們還在很合理平穩的狀態下雙方進行必要的溝通所以你們會不會"},{"start":23885.845,"end":23906.93,"text":"我們當然有一些想法但是現在我們沒有遇到困難外交的問題不需要大家在這裡好像先下手為強或先大聲所以林哥哥保證如果說美國對我們中華民國對我們台灣有不合理的關稅措施的話我們一定會有反擊措施我可以這樣理解我們會極力爭取不公平的這個關稅對待我國第一個"},{"start":23908.212,"end":23922.097,"text":"極力爭取避免不公平的關稅第二在對等關稅當中一定要雙方基於平等的爭取是一種我可以講你聽不聽是一回事但是我可以做什麼是我可以自己決定現在還沒有發甄請部長來說沒關係你們有沙盤推演你們有復案你們能夠保護國內的產業不要美國說抬高關稅然後我們什麼事情都沒辦法做"},{"start":23929.997,"end":23951.31,"text":"那就可以了當然我們維持我們的領先而且我們避免我們絕對要阻止我們的產業空洞化被懷疑另外就是不公平的關稅我們會極力的避免好沒關係你們有覆案你不一定要在這邊講我講了出來就好像在對美國嗆聲我也不知道這樣的意思好不好但是你們至少有覆案那接下來回到晶片關稅本身川普之前說對台灣晶片課這100%的關稅那院長了解這100%的關稅是怎麼課的嗎"},{"start":23957.873,"end":23977.081,"text":"報告這個委員我想這個100%的關稅只是他們放出來的一種說法但是對我們到目前為止我們並沒有說到這樣的一個我們有去了解嗎我們當然有去了解那他的100%關稅是怎麼克法100%的關稅怎麼克法我問的是晶片它不是一個終端銷售的產品嗎"},{"start":23980.09,"end":23995.964,"text":"所以我們到目前為止都一直在收集市場上面然後跟他們對方我們跟他們在溝通到底你這個100%是要怎麼課稅是中端產品還是在PayPal上面的產品還是在用每一個element去計算"},{"start":24000.488,"end":24022.76,"text":"這個大家都還在溝通部長講的就是我要問的所以我們的政府到目前為止還沒有理解川普政府所說100%的關稅到底是課晶片本身還是後續加工產品或是終端的手機產品到目前為止我們還沒有任何的訊息他要怎麼課我們不是沒有任何的訊息我們只是我們各種的這個simulation都有"},{"start":24023.786,"end":24046.625,"text":"我們都有各種評估不會說只有單一像委員你所說的這樣子我們都沒有我們做很多的評估A案 B案 C案 D案 每一種你都評估過了都評估過好 謝謝那我想因為台灣的台積電的產品單就晶片本身出口到美國的比例我看新聞報導上面寫大概是不到5%啦"},{"start":24047.646,"end":24068.522,"text":"所以說單就晶片來課稅的話老實說對於台積電根本是沒有任何的影響影響微乎其微那如果說是對終端的產品來課稅的話那就會有影響但是好像國際上從來沒有針對終端產品中的某一項的原件去課稅都是對終端產品的物件去課稅嘛所以說我才會去疑惑"},{"start":24069.362,"end":24089.544,"text":"美國政府到底是要對晶片怎麼去克法是 報告委員我想你這個質詢是非常正確啦但是美國到目前為止他也沒有講說他要怎麼克只是講說他要克100%所以對我們來講我們必須要去模擬各種不同的情境然後提出我們因應的方法"},{"start":24090.465,"end":24114.471,"text":"所以台積電他可能也不知道但是他就決定了去美國投資其實說真的我對於其實大家都很不理解台積電為什麼要去美國投資如果說單對晶片來課稅的話就成如剛剛講的不到5%影響微乎其微那我不曉得台積電有沒有被美國威脅過台積電不是一個整合上下中油產業的一家企業半導體制程是非常複雜的每一個人都專心在他每一個的項目"},{"start":24115.58,"end":24143.651,"text":"台積電如果說上游的原料被斷掉的話台積電沒有辦法運作就像現在美國要用EUV去這個牽制大陸的一個半導體產業的發展有沒有聽說過美國曾經想要用這個控制原物料原件的方法例如說一些我看一下 比如說晶圓矽晶圓或是光阻劑等等的這些可能在日本獨佔市場的一些原料來牽制台積電"},{"start":24145.195,"end":24164.962,"text":"聽委員講委員的質詢應該是對這個產業有相當的了解不過我們也應該有信心台積電是一個世界性的大公司他到世界全球做佈局他不僅要了解經濟的發展趨勢甚至整個國際政經情勢軍事發展國防他都要了解我們任何一個人"},{"start":24165.642,"end":24191.745,"text":"都不可能的想自己的想法超越整個台積電的評估但是因為台積電在一月法說會過後就很明確的講不會去美國這個去美國門都沒有那兩個月的時間不知道我的世界發生了什麼變化讓他突然改變了心意所以說我才會懷疑是不是台積電有沒有被世界的變化是蠻快的台積電有沒有受到一些不公平的一些對待"},{"start":24192.245,"end":24219.062,"text":"我想報告委員我想這個半導體您這麼熟悉這個是相當不簡單但是我要跟您報告的就是說在整個台積電的這個他們這麼優秀的一個公司我想他對海外的這個進出一定有他們所有的考慮那他們這個考慮不會這麼倉促也不會說這麼高的一個投資金額可以就是一個人去做決定所以以我們"},{"start":24220.602,"end":24247.474,"text":"對國際企業了解的程度來講的話他只有兩個目的會到這個海外去做第一個就是思考的是當地的市場有沒有這個市場的需求第二個考慮的是有沒有當地的資源他的說法我大概知道啦那那個台積電的部分我們就反正沒有人證實我們也沒辦法揣測啦我只能亂猜一通嘛那回到我們國內台積電到美國投資一千億這件事情"},{"start":24248.467,"end":24272.605,"text":"有沒有影響到輝達在台灣設立研發中心這件事情這件事情有沒有受到相關的一些擱置還是繼續的推動報告委員這個你也是內行我可以跟你報告台積電的這個RD工程師大概分成三種第一種叫Research第二種叫Develop第三個叫做這個Manufacture也就是improve他良率的工程師"},{"start":24274.624,"end":24280.085,"text":"這個台積電這三種的工程師三種的研發工程師加起來有一萬四千位"},{"start":24281.369,"end":24310.347,"text":"這個就是凝聚我快沒時間了我想問一下輝達在台灣設立研發中心這件事情有沒有因此擱置這兩個沒有正相關這兩個沒有正相關所以輝達還是繼續的在找地嗎輝達一定會在台灣可是再繼續輔導嘛跟委員報告台積電在台灣既有的投資計畫不會改變其他的主要的大廠在台灣既有的現代投資計畫也持續會進行我最後一個問題我們有沒有評估過假設台積電的這一千億的美金"},{"start":24311.687,"end":24338.491,"text":"改投資在台灣那這一千億的美金的投資可以為我們國內包括建廠土建工程的從建廠開始的就業機會報我們的他生產晶片所產生的就業機會所創造的GDP或者是我們每年的稅收包括我們上中下游產業的一些就業人員或者是GDP的影響跟稅收的影響我們有沒有進行評估過了"},{"start":24339.927,"end":24355.134,"text":"報告委員台積電在台灣有11個廠現在要開始做有11個廠他去美國只是對沒關係我就單純討論這1000億如果留在台灣他可以創造多少的就業機會我們的經濟價值我們的GDP我們的稅收我們這點有沒有評估過了"},{"start":24359.095,"end":24382.858,"text":"報告委員 我覺得這個不是取代性的問題所以在美國投資的一千億 台灣的投資會改變這對台積電來講 我當然不能替他發言但是我在觀察 對台積電來講希望我們的政府能夠做詳細的評估這個一千億是如虎添翼的一千億就像當初的福茂 大家會希望了解對國內經濟的衝擊嘛一樣的 這一千億如果說我們的政府能留在台灣這些就是我們台灣的啊並不是取代性希望我們能夠做詳細的評估"},{"start":24386.36,"end":24395.434,"text":"好 謝謝廖先祥委員的諮詢也謝謝主委長 各部會首長的備詢接下來我們請登記38號張雅琳委員請諮詢"},{"start":24451.074,"end":24452.857,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請院長麻煩再請周院長備選"},{"start":24465.627,"end":24489.157,"text":"國民黨昨天開了一個記者會高喊反戒嚴聽起來好像在捍衛民主但問題是當年執行長達38年的戒嚴的政黨就是國民黨而且國民黨為了護航過去壓迫台灣人的歷史不僅在我們的立法院無所不用其極的拖延我們的一些轉型正義的工作模糊轉型正義的定義"},{"start":24490.017,"end":24506.057,"text":"然後甚至在預算上面大砍了黨產會內政部教育部還有文化部的一些相關預算那我要跟院長說您知道嗎在這個凍結的預算如果7月前無法解凍我們的228國家紀念館就要因為付不出營運費用而休館了"},{"start":24506.698,"end":24535.256,"text":"所以我今天看到這兩個這個新聞的時候我只有這兩個字荒謬因為今天台灣的民主是有多少的前輩犧牲了生命犧牲了青春才得到的這是不止息的一個抗爭絕對不是國民黨的恩賜可是國民黨為什麼還可以正義凜然的臉不紅氣不寒的喊出來要反戒嚴我覺得有一個非常大的問題就是大多數的民眾對於戒嚴這兩個字其實是非常不清楚的"},{"start":24536.206,"end":24555.511,"text":"所以就很容易被這樣子操弄所以我想跟院長分享一段東吳大學政治系教授陳俊宏老師在俄巴的共聲音音樂會上面的一個演講這個片段他講的是說從匈牙利和波蘭的例子來看儘管經歷了共產政權的垮台"},{"start":24556.371,"end":24573.307,"text":"但是公民如果持續保有威權懷舊的政治態度就容易使新興民主體制下的領導人進行民粹動員讓公民接受那些違背民主原則的決定進而破壞法治精神導致民主倒退"},{"start":24574.048,"end":24590.942,"text":"匈牙利曾經是東歐民主化的成功典範但是如果公民社會對於威權沒有免疫力那民主就可能一步一步的被蠶食這些國家30年的處境跟台灣非常的相似但他們一步一步走回頭路我們台灣真的要從道復策嗎"},{"start":24591.903,"end":24618.533,"text":"那所以呢在今年一月的時候呢歐洲理事會去強調歷史教育對培養民主公民意識至關重要因為歷史不是過去而是我們如何面對未來如果我們不讓社會正視過去的不義讓下一代知道威權的可怕那麼民主的危機就會隨時發生所以呢今天我想要就深化轉型正義才有民主任性這個主題來跟院長做仔細的討論"},{"start":24620.478,"end":24636.143,"text":"在228當天中樞儀式的時候賴總統其實發表演說指出要請文化部啟動審議程序例如藝光教會等具有轉型正義意義的場所與保存維護讓大家都能夠走進歷史的現場反思思考"},{"start":24636.983,"end":24650.869,"text":"威權統治對人權自由的破壞進而鬆化台灣的民族我認為這是一個很好的開始但是從促轉會解散到現在已經三年了過去促轉會審定相關博弈遺址的時候是根據審定博弈遺址作業要點"},{"start":24652.23,"end":24679.781,"text":"解散之後整個工作移轉到文化部但是目前為止文化部並沒有任何的審定要點詢問相關程序都說要等到立法院三讀立法這個不易移植保存條例才能夠進行後續的活化所以我想要請教院長就是說既然總統都已經清楚的講出來要由文化部來啟動一個審議的程序那麼我們相關的時間表是什麼而且如果以藝光教會這個來作為案例我們什麼時候會啟動"},{"start":24681.522,"end":24695.155,"text":"我們的程序又是什麼首先台灣因為有過去長期的戒嚴這個戒嚴的教訓以及現在世界各國各種民主發展改革的過程"},{"start":24695.7,"end":24712.787,"text":"才造成今天台灣有這樣一個勇敢面對極權還能夠堅守民主的自我的一個心理上最強大的武器所以我們在這個基礎上我們應該是相信台灣是一個永遠民主自由的地方那天在二二八當天總統所說的"},{"start":24713.147,"end":24733.822,"text":"它最大的意義是希望台灣永遠永遠不要再發生像228這樣的事件所以它把藝光教會把它先把它指定為是具有轉型正義的一個意義的一個場所那未來文化部就會啟動它整個審議的程序那審議的過程請文化部請李部長來做說明"},{"start":24734.824,"end":24748.085,"text":"好跟委員報告有關一貫教會的事情我們其實人權管已經啟動了一個我們就擬定一個未來由民間主動申請的時候我們給他一個"},{"start":24749.264,"end":24767.444,"text":"不算是不義於此但是是關於轉型正義有意義的場域這樣的名稱作為一個暫時的一個取代另外有關不義於此的條例去年7月18送進立法院審議的過程中我們在等待結果但是目前"},{"start":24769.679,"end":24794.35,"text":"助長會給我們的42處不義遺址還有64處潛在不義部長其實我想要知道就是說未來啦因為我們還是要更積極的去審定嘛因為不義遺址其實就是一直不停的在被破壞所以我們是不是可以有更積極的一個審定要點或是暫行方案這個部分是不是可以來是是可以其實我們2026年以前就會把所有潛在不義遺址審定完畢其實我們有在進行"},{"start":24795.236,"end":24809.852,"text":"但是對於現在還有很多還沒有被認定的不義遺址呢我們現在是沒有任何相關的審定要點所以我們是不是可以來擬定呢院長是不是可以責成文化部我們一個月以內來提出一個相關的解決方案可以嗎"},{"start":24810.475,"end":24828.535,"text":"所以當天總統所宣示的那就是一個這個階段的起點對我們用這個起點從不移植或者是具有轉型正義的意義的這個場域我們就開始有一個新的方式跟階段性的作為文化部就會啟動好那我想我希望可以在一個月內看到一些相關的一個規劃好嗎好"},{"start":24830.957,"end":24857.443,"text":"謝謝 謝謝文化部那接下來就是要來講就是說針對於不義職的保存其實威權象徵的去除也是轉型正義中相當重要的工作最近其實中原大學配合了一個自己主動決議他們要來配合轉型正義來去做修改中正樓的這個大樓的名稱我認為這對轉型正義是一個非常大的一個進展而這件事情智慧可以成功的是我們的政策引導"},{"start":24858.843,"end":24869.828,"text":"這是我們的政策引導做出來所以我也想要請教因為其實我們現在還是有非常多的路民出轉會的報告其實也有提到路民的要更名所以我是否可以請教交通部部長我們可以時間暫停一下嗎時間暫停"},{"start":24882.554,"end":24906.534,"text":"資訊請繼續謝謝好就是說我們是不是可以依循我們這個內政部的一些相關的補助方式呢讓地方政府在進行交通建設的時候在路民或是站民的命名之上也能夠透過加分項目或是增加補助金額引導縣市政府可以像中原大學這樣子自動自發的啟動跟民作業不要像去年桃園市政府當時引發了非常大的爭議就是民眾的投票民意"},{"start":24907.074,"end":24929.811,"text":"完全背道而馳,把捷運站民用了很多用中正命名的,這真的是大開轉型正義的倒側,不曉得交通部長的想法是什麼?好,報告委員,未來這個部分我們可以納入討論,那我回到部裡面,再跟部裡面的同仁來討論,未來的審核的過程當中,把這些也納入。對,那這個部分的話,我們是大概什麼時候可以有一些進一步的了解呢?"},{"start":24930.547,"end":24938.03,"text":"我跟內部先討論,那一個月之內向委員報告好,謝謝部長那再來就是要請國發會主委上臺,謝謝時間暫停,謝謝時間暫停,那文化部長跟交通部長一起回"},{"start":24952.034,"end":24972.246,"text":"借這個時間暫停順便宣告一下,我們的硬體建築就是三位所以說所有隔園的備詢不要超過三位一個是硬體建築,硬體設備就是三位另外部長這些畫面太多我特別也跟院長各部會隔園溝通一下請盡量不要超過三位,畫面也不好看好不好,好請繼續"},{"start":24975.563,"end":24989.71,"text":"好謝謝那去年總諮詢的時候其實我特別提到就是促轉基金應該開放給民間來直接申請使用那當時也非常感謝就是院長馬上責成了國發會主委來進行相關的研討但是在去年在最近我在追這個檔案局就是我們有"},{"start":24990.63,"end":25007.879,"text":"更細部的一些計畫的時候呢我發現就是說現在給我的這個方案比較像是說我把大家的相關的各部會的相關計畫彙整成為一個平台讓大家可以知道說我可以從哪邊得到這些相關的補助這個跟這比較像一個資訊的彙整平台跟我當時"},{"start":25009.099,"end":25035.396,"text":"期待的方向不一樣因為我的期待其實是希望可以讓民間團體直接申請我們引進民間的活力來推動各式各樣的轉型計畫我覺得這個也可以讓公司一起協力但是現在比較像是一個會診平台所以我想要請教一下就是說我們有沒有可能再去做一些在這個方向上面更打開一點呢"},{"start":25035.856,"end":25046.649,"text":"不像只是一個資訊平台還是你們其實是有這個方向在規劃謝謝委員我們今年會規劃一個您所說的就是您提的這個讓民間可以有機會申請的平台"},{"start":25048.412,"end":25070.072,"text":"事實上我也補充說明一下我們從去年開始就修訂了條例民間就即可申請只是我們的申請是到主要的六個部會然後去個別申請原因是我們不希望資源重複的浪費舉例而言如果是政治受難者家屬的心情貧富"},{"start":25070.832,"end":25098.731,"text":"可能衛福部已經有案子在走的時候如果民間再申請就會重複所以我們希望他到衛福部來申請那這樣的話衛福部可以統一支援如果已經政府已經在做的那就不一定民間就要不要做再由部會來做所以我們將來這個平台的整合我們還是會整合進來但是會回到由這個六個部會原來我們法定的六個部會來各自審議但我想請教一下就是說那我直接從後面的例子來討論好了抱歉就是說抱歉我按錯了"},{"start":25101.141,"end":25127.114,"text":"就是說我不太確定如果用這樣子的方式我們的促轉基金的用途會不會非常的重複跟狹隘就是說因為其實我覺得促轉基金的想像可以非常非常的多元以我們現在促轉基金裡面的一些規範來說其實它並沒有非常非常的狹隘可是我們過去的一些補助其實都還是在限縮一個原本的一些既有的想像那其實在國外我想舉個"},{"start":25127.754,"end":25152.049,"text":"一個簡單的例子啦就是柏林博物館其實它也是一個紀念猶太人受難的一個過程的一個博物館那它當時其實建了一個兒童長館那這個兒童長館它是找兒童們一起來做一個審議會然後一起來討論這個遊戲場要變成什麼樣子然後希望通過這個過程來培立兒童可以參與公共事務來培立這個民主討論的一個機制那這樣子的事情其實在沖繩"},{"start":25153.75,"end":25176.73,"text":"在美國都有類似的案例那我認為這個其實就是公司協力一個最好的方式所以我想要了解就是說我們如果促轉基金要做到像這樣子的一個東西的話如果有人來提出這樣子的創意那他到底要到哪一個部會去做申請呢在既有的六個部會嗎還是他可以有一個更開放的平台或組織可以來協助他申請"},{"start":25177.989,"end":25206.459,"text":"非常謝謝委員您的提議非常好可以幫助我們做得更好我們其實有內部做個討論做過這個討論我們希望是說如果是單一部會的話我們就到部會去申請但是跨部會的我們有些做法可能會跨了兩個部會或三個部會的我們希望是這個平台透過這個平台進到國發會來做統合所以國發會會是由檔案局還是檔案局嗎檔案局它就會進行跨部會的協商"},{"start":25207.328,"end":25227.358,"text":"這個部分我也想請教一下,如果還是回到檔案局的部分,我有一個問題想要跟主委再做一些討論,就是說以政治檔案的研究,檔管局絕對是他的專業,但是要去評估這麼多開放性的一些想像的時候,檔管局的專業上面是否足夠呢?"},{"start":25229.222,"end":25238.257,"text":"其實這是一個很專業的問題所以我們是有一個促轉委員會會由這個委員會來評估協助評估不是我們來評估我們請了很多專家學者"},{"start":25239.113,"end":25263.711,"text":"所以會有另外到時候促轉經濟之後會有促轉委員會來評估那黨管局只是來協助執行是嗎其實各部會的資料也會送到這裡來做統籌的評估那我們請專家來做評估好因為我時間有限那我想我們這一個平台的細節我們就之後來持續跟國發會這邊來研究跟討論謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝最後想要請教院長有關於中正紀念堂的問題"},{"start":25266.96,"end":25287.748,"text":"就是在2023年行政院推動了轉型正義業務中長程規劃計監測指標建立方案在去年的時候我們就應該要完成相關的修法法制作業但目前還是沒有完成那我在去年的11月促轉匯報上面的測競方案又再度看到了說要去做一個相關法制的修正"},{"start":25289.168,"end":25317.142,"text":"那我想我們其實過去對中正紀念堂其實已經開過了非常多次的會包含在促轉期間促轉會期間就開了六個方案在鄭麗君副院長在文化部的期間其實也召開了十二場民間的論壇我想其實我們已經開了很多的會應該是時候來做一個決定了那我不曉得說中正紀念堂的轉型其實應該是一個非常非常重要的事情那我其實有看到中正紀念堂轉型小組的呂健興委員"},{"start":25318.142,"end":25342.203,"text":"其實行政院曾經有意把中正紀念堂轉到人權館那我想要請教說對於這樣子的一個想法請院長簡單回覆一下您的看法是什麼是的 我們在會議當中是想說這個中正紀念堂如果讓它有新的民主人權的意義那麼它的未來的發展就不會是過去大家對威權的記憶就像"},{"start":25343.186,"end":25359.647,"text":"我小時候看總統府它就是威權可是我現在看總統府它就是民主的象徵因為我們用人民的力量改變了它的結構改變了它的背景也改變了它存在的意義如果我們同樣的力量用更多的人權文化民主"},{"start":25360.308,"end":25386.565,"text":"甚至轉型正義的意義也在裡面讓大家認為應該是對威權的記憶的這些建築物轉化成這個功能的話那又是給我們跟給我們的下一代新的一個精神上的期望我想 抱歉啊就是說 院長就是說中間紀念堂的轉型是一個非常非常重要的工作我想我們還是必須直面歷史過去中間紀念堂裡面的這一位我們大家現在住在裡面的這一位"},{"start":25387.986,"end":25406.277,"text":"蔣介石先生對台灣的一些傷害我想這是一件非常困難的工作但是我們也必須堅持啦因為還是回到我剛剛講的那一句話只有深化轉型正義直面歷史才能夠打造社會民主社會的韌性完全支持謝謝張雅林委員的質詢也謝謝卓院長各部會所長的備詢謝謝"},{"start":25419.192,"end":25441.331,"text":"好 接下來我們請登記第39號鄭天才委員請諮詢韓院長 卓院長及各部會首長有請韓院長"},{"start":25446.69,"end":25475.827,"text":"麻煩再請卓院長 韓院長在這裡 麻煩再請卓院長正委員好 卓院長好 來後來後辛苦了 不會 謝謝今天這個總質詢在2月25號院長的施政報告裡面特別提到要落實原住民族基本法"},{"start":25477.133,"end":25504.982,"text":"推動原住民的希望工程這裡面先談這個加強提升加速提升原住民族的教育程度是在76年2月12號這次引用這個現在我還可以找得到的公文事實上在國民政府時代我們念書的時候"},{"start":25506.472,"end":25532.238,"text":"這個升協保障升協優待就開始了這個降低入企標準這個延時總分的25%民國95年9月3號這個杜正勝當任交易部長的時候把這個升協的保障規定做了修正改為外加2%外加2%之前的是"},{"start":25535.714,"end":25563.099,"text":"你只要加分之後就錄起來那個95年修正也就是96年1月開始實施那102年也做了修正是經過我的諮詢協調之後修正了就是希望授權就授權給教育部會同研明會跟大專院校能夠專案調高部分的科系"},{"start":25564.458,"end":25592.88,"text":"專案調高外加百分之五經過多年的實施之後因為很多學校他都不願意提供外加百分之五的科系所以這個我們看這個近五年的大專校宴學生出債協力107年度原住民跟全國的大專學生的出債協力是"},{"start":25597.516,"end":25622.367,"text":"31.9%逐年的上升喔到112閒零度上升到這個落差啊沿漢的落差高達34%所以不降反升所以這個必須要積極的來去檢討這個本席啊這個一再的協調教育部啊能夠"},{"start":25623.84,"end":25648.882,"text":"前面外加5%為什麼 現在少此理化了嘛很多學校也招不到學生所以我們100個名額再加五個位置 五個椅子也無妨嘛所以這個部分這個教育部是不是請這些能夠支持教育部能夠修正這個將外加名額前面提升為5%"},{"start":25651.035,"end":25664.682,"text":"好 報告委員其實原住民的夥伴們在文化 表演 藝術 以及在體育在各行各業 百工百業當中非常傑出的優秀的表現已經非常非常多了但即使如此"},{"start":25665.694,"end":25692.196,"text":"我認為這種保障就學的機制維持也是必要的因為我們還是有城鄉的差距我們還是有數位的落差但是如果把城鄉差距數位落差把它補足起來這才是長遠之道但是您說的這個現在原住民學生升學保障跟公費留學辦法他其中目前應該有的保障的這些規定到底執行起來是"},{"start":25692.936,"end":25716.306,"text":"保障的不夠還是人數的不足還是有什麼其他資金上的困難我講請教育部 請部長來說明謝謝委員關心原住民的一個受教權那我想在這個部分我們是非常佩服的但是就大學現場事實上我們大概很多的學校大概都把這個名額開出來那而且"},{"start":25717.188,"end":25732.477,"text":"用特別的一些管道來招生但是我們也看到現場許多原住民的名額是沒有被用滿的也就是說特定的這些原住民教育裡邊我們怎麼樣讓"},{"start":25733.718,"end":25752.469,"text":"原來的這個原住民地區的這些青年朋友他們能夠勇於去接受挑戰我想這一個部分我們會來努力那另外也跟委員報告今年的公會留考事實上我們也特別針對原住民地區的這些生物的學生"},{"start":25755.663,"end":25781.655,"text":"沒有談到公費流考啦針對外加百分之二改為外加百分之五所以並沒有很具體剛才的數字我希望院長希望部長要有感要有感這是真實的數字這個數據還是你們所跟委員報告我們願意來再重新來檢討從31.9"},{"start":25786.854,"end":25810.754,"text":"不降反升差距越來越大差距到34%你講那些我都知道所以這個部分從國民政府都可以那時候就不限名額不限名額只要加分25%就上去了就去念了那現在我們"},{"start":25812.031,"end":25837.323,"text":"支持改為外加不要佔別一般學生的名額我們支持但是希望說從百分之二可以外加到百分之五而這個百分之五從一百零二學年度修正了之後可以專案的部分的科系從葉俊龍部長開始實施一百零五年"},{"start":25839.074,"end":25856.155,"text":"105年開始實施 專案外加5%但是你們的協調不足協調不足所以很多科系就沒有增外加5%所以是不是就直接就修正全部改為外加5%"},{"start":25858.364,"end":25884.202,"text":"這個沒有困難 如果有什麼困難你書面資料提問給我原民會應該會掌握到為何會有這樣的現狀發生因為時間的關係應該有的說是原住民的學生沒有進來我找你們開過會了我也找過教育部開過會了我們有什麼方法鼓勵更多的原住民的青年朋友們加入"},{"start":25885.263,"end":25908.271,"text":"這樣的一個保障的名額裡面現在這個制度應該是否足夠院長 他去考啦 都去考啦高中畢業 高職畢業都去考啦 沒考上啦就是這麼一回事啊說明一下最主要數字都在教育部來報考的研究院的學生我們要鼓勵他們多來考啊多考啦 不是沒有考"},{"start":25912.193,"end":25933.473,"text":"我們今年還特別通過了原住民的一個國際專班為原住民來培養國際人才我想只要有各大學在申請我們都會全力來支持那現在就是說委員所關心希望有更多原住民我們也會在前面來盤點來檢討看有沒有什麼因為不是增加5%的問題"},{"start":25934.634,"end":25959.108,"text":"因為增加5%它只是會讓那個缺額更多我想我們怎麼樣來真正落實讓原住民的一個學習品質能夠提升我想就像委員今天穿的衣服為什麼我今天裡面的衣服跟委員的也是來自於原住民是因為我真確認為台灣生物多樣性、文化多樣性、族群多樣性"},{"start":25959.688,"end":25987.564,"text":"我身為一個教育部長我應該對各個族群有一個更多的一些文化的一個認同跟欣賞任何人不分族群教育是最重要的我完全同意委員的一個也認同委員的一個努力方向我剛才講過國民政府時代就開始了當時不是外加只要加分25%"},{"start":25989.465,"end":26008.167,"text":"就這樣啦 當初今天才十二個早如果沒有外加25%不會去念台大法律系我絕對是沒有念大學所以這個部分現在既然是外加早期又不是外加喔"},{"start":26009.211,"end":26038.122,"text":"現在只不過是請你外交2%改為5%何況這個5%從102閒年度也實施到現在有一個階段性的一個實施顯然這個差距還是越來越大所以應該要調高到5%請教育部往這個方向去努力"},{"start":26039.704,"end":26066.683,"text":"好另外就是說原住民念大專校園除了剛才的一個原因之外到了大專校園之後涉及到教育經費經濟的壓力我念大學四年禮拜六禮拜天都去挑板模啦"},{"start":26068.442,"end":26096.828,"text":"在台大法學院二年級在台大法學院正好宿舍有這個餐廳我中午晚餐收盤子洗盤子邱泰山過去的主委部長陳明通過去的政務官跟我都是同屆的他們是政治系我收他們的盤子洗盤子"},{"start":26099.819,"end":26124.011,"text":"這個接下來跟教育的提升這也是因素之一所以這樣的一個教育減免學雜費也是從國民政府就開始的我當初有減免學雜費住宿費還免費但是還是沒有辦法因應相關的生活的包括很多的"},{"start":26125.41,"end":26153.545,"text":"所以原住民租交易法有這樣的一個規定減免協雜費但是112年6月29號行政院這個減免私立大專協雜費的3.5萬但是原住民的部分因為我們本來已經降低了所以沒辦法用到 用不到所以這個"},{"start":26154.659,"end":26180.276,"text":"整個219億多的經費我們用不到而這個這樣的一個抱歉從107年這個結雜費的減免107年到現在都沒有再增加沒有再增加這個減免的額度"},{"start":26181.178,"end":26198.639,"text":"所以我也開過協調會 到現在為止 事實上已經七年多沒有修正了這個部分也是讓我們的好不容易考上了 結果因為經濟的因素就輟學"},{"start":26201.212,"end":26218.616,"text":"所以這個部分也請教育部行政院希望能夠支持提高調高學雜費減免的數額請院長能夠支持謝謝委員提醒我想確實國家在對新世代年輕人的照顧怎麼樣能夠隨著私立學校的學會的"},{"start":26231.483,"end":26251.101,"text":"這個補貼能夠也反映適度的反映到原住民我們會整體來細算然後來看怎麼樣來協助原住民青年的一個教育希望你能夠在這個下年度的預算現在開始鎖邊明年度的預算希望你能夠把它列入進去"},{"start":26252.842,"end":26276.045,"text":"我們都會區的人口已經高達百分之五十一點多院長的施政報告裡面特別提到實踐居住正義營造安居的家園執行社會住宅新辦的計畫這跟內政部也有關係我們先看這個早期還沒有延期法的時候還沒有住宅法的時候"},{"start":26278.017,"end":26305.721,"text":"81年台灣省政府以一億五千多萬興建了基隆的原住民國宅而且土地還是爭辯為原住民保留地新店的中正原住民住宅83年這個是兩億一千三百多萬兩億一千三百多萬"},{"start":26309.653,"end":26339.174,"text":"然後新北市的三峽原住民文化部落整個是兩億八千零九十二萬也請內政部部長也上來麻煩請內政部長備詢三峽原住民文化部落剛剛講到一百五十戶民國八十八年中央人民會以四億九千兩百萬架構直接購買民間的集合式住宅"},{"start":26340.643,"end":26368.486,"text":"提供給原住民126戶的來住戶原基法94年2月5號公布施行現在正好20周年政府應該設定原住民族住宅政策住宅法第二條第四項規定為了原住民族的教育及文化"},{"start":26369.804,"end":26393.764,"text":"語言文化的提升大家住在一起都會期啊大家住在一起語言文化包括教育的提升比較能夠所以要精建專攻原住民成豬的社會住宅這是105年12月23號住宅法本席也曾經質詢內政部前任的部長林佑昌"},{"start":26394.81,"end":26419.637,"text":"他當時答覆說在台中沙鹿、新北樹林、桃園大溪總共541戶原住民社會住宅業要規劃興建結果呢這個後來素面答覆的結果台中沙鹿的部分沒有經費新北樹林的部分沒有經費新北樹林說經費要調 人民會說要調經費他也去調了"},{"start":26423.22,"end":26450.38,"text":"桃園大溪的說沒有經費沒有經費跟中央要 中央沒有錢好這裡面 園民會本來中和發展基金新北市的部分就是跟市 園民會說我跟你借錢借原住民族中和發展基金然後一部分你補助給我"},{"start":26451.693,"end":26475.811,"text":"希望能夠興建那原住民族綜合法案基金105年12月31號的結算數是117億7千多萬但是到了今年到了去年了到了去年 人民會的答覆給新北市政府說我們的存款原住民族綜合法案基金的存款只剩下9.1億"},{"start":26478.786,"end":26503.707,"text":"因為絕大部分的經費54億已經被挪用去做進法補償的費用了以無資金來支應這個社會住宅本席曾經執行過內政部的部長到了之前的部長希望能夠住宅的這個"},{"start":26507.495,"end":26533.782,"text":"106年3月27號 諮詢內政部部長他說可以用住宅基金 內政部的住宅基金自建自營新建原住民社會住宅但是已經這麼多年了住宅法修正公佈已經八年三個月專攻原住民的社會住宅一個都還沒有我剛剛為什麼會掀起之前的"},{"start":26535.633,"end":26562.444,"text":"基隆的新北市的三個總共四個就是說在那時候沒有法律的情況之下為了照顧為了提供給都會區的原住民的社會住宅都做了有了住宅法之後已經八年三個月了一個都沒有所以請行政院能夠支持"},{"start":26563.496,"end":26583.745,"text":"以內政部的住宅基金或者是編列公務預算來興建當然直接架構是最快過去我在演民會服務過直接架構是最快 細指的就是直接架構對民間來講也幫助院長是不是交給這個"},{"start":26588.166,"end":26616.4,"text":"這個是一個大議題今天也不必直接答覆了是不是請院長這個警內政部跟園民會當然如果要公務一算原住民委員會的住宅計畫剛合訂的住宅計畫根本就沒有列這個部分了所以國發會也希望能夠支持主計總署希望能夠支持可以嗎"},{"start":26617.588,"end":26645.656,"text":"好 謝謝委員 我們再來內部再來商議一下什麼樣的方式現在的制度如果繼續走或怎麼樣我們再來商議一下好 謝謝 謝謝院長好 深化自治這是總統府的這個新聞 新聞稿深化自治好 請那個部長 沒錯蔡政府推動原住民組織制立法的進度的創案包括特別提到"},{"start":26647.588,"end":26676.78,"text":"他說我國早期中央各級民意代表的原住民保障席次以及三地鄉的鄉長保障縣三地原住民來擔任甚至相關的這些學校的校長主任優先兼用原住民都認為這個實質上已在逐步落實民族自治"},{"start":26677.822,"end":26690.069,"text":"也就是說這個特別提到已經具有民族自治的精神我們看這個民國41年戒嚴時期民國41年戒嚴時期動員勘亂時期三地鄉鄉長現由三地原住民擔任這個是當時的法規"},{"start":26702.29,"end":26731.484,"text":"三地鄉的三地公民年滿25歲50人連署就可以去參選這個鄉長原住民的立法委員保障其次從民國61年動員抗亂時期開始從一個名額後來增加到兩個名額後來增加到四個名額現在增加到六個名額曾經最高高達八個名額原住民的立法委員"},{"start":26732.165,"end":26758.207,"text":"當然國大代表也有那我要談的是什麼呢事實上談的就是這個原住民族基本法院長也特別提到要落實原住民族基本法那原住民族自治就是原住民族基本法其中之一很重要的部分所以部落工法人在原住民族基本法也特別明定"},{"start":26759.409,"end":26782.319,"text":"相關的土海法也是在這個原住民族基本法第20條第三項特別規定蔡總統特別承諾105年的時候8月1號講的105年11月1號我們開始發射公告原住民傳統領域土地部落公法人的制度我們已經上路了"},{"start":26783.499,"end":26807.472,"text":"蔡總統還特別提到我們會加快將原住民族自治法原住民族土安法送請立法院審議但是經過8年多了都沒有都沒有送來而人民會的預算原住民族自治的預算總共從105年編列到114年總共已經編列了4,039萬8千元院長"},{"start":26812.864,"end":26841.82,"text":"我在延民會當企劃處處長後來當延民會的常務副主委是陳水扁總統任內當任常務副主委我們沒有編列經費我們完成了原住民主自治法的草案我們沒有編列經費完成了原住民主土地及海域法的草案花了這麼多錢原住民主自治法這八年多來應該是講九年了啦"},{"start":26842.914,"end":26868.044,"text":"這九年來沒有送到立法院這個擦一下這個因為預算已經編了很多剛講四千多萬了所以我就凍結了園民會的預算希望說就不要編預算改為積極的去怎麼樣去落實去推動我不敢刪我不忍心刪"},{"start":26870.1,"end":26898.042,"text":"我當立法委員從來不刪減預算然後這個也是經過我在內政委員會的一個提案張宏祿召委主持的 也沒有反對就同意凍結結果呢就被列為這個復議案的理由啊復議案的違反這個"},{"start":26900.359,"end":26927.695,"text":"司法院的一個391號的解釋所以這個部分這個是額外的他不都談了重點還在於已經編了這麼多預算希望第一個請行政院三個月內發布部落公法人設置辦法部落公法人設置辦法發布之後並不是所有的部落就編成公法人"},{"start":26928.444,"end":26951.537,"text":"他還要按照很多的行政程序從部落會議一直到要提包到縣到中央演民會所以並不是每個部落都要成立第二個公告原住民族傳統領域公告了新店新店區烏來區我講錯了烏來區已經公告將近7年多了"},{"start":26957.522,"end":26978.62,"text":"都不會 沒有怎麼樣啊沒有怎麼樣 所以不要怕不要怕 各部會不要怕第三 原住民族自治法草案 趕快送立法院來審議原住民族土地及海域法草案 趕快送立法院審議好 曾主委要講話我跟委員報告那這個有關部落供火人的設置辦法"},{"start":26980.049,"end":27003.195,"text":"曾經我們也是有公告過但是部落現在的意見還很多但是我們想乾脆我們先來試辦所以今年我們會試辦五個部落那這個五個部落為什麼要找他試辦因為我們自己覺得這個部落的核心幹部比較容易形成共識我們就先試辦今年就辦主委這句話我已經從宜將主委聽到現在我來說我來說"},{"start":27010.731,"end":27032.531,"text":"部落你這個部落設置辦法發布施行之後部落要不要當公法人部落自己決定部落的人民來決定你不要去說服他你不用說服他他自己去開會決定我們會設置這個會設置辦法但是就是說重點"},{"start":27035.539,"end":27057.837,"text":"重點是你要快把部落公辦的設置辦法要發布比較容易成功的而且今年就會做成功的這樣的話我們才會有跨出一步不然永遠都是在那邊你沒有這個設置辦法你怎麼去辦啊你怎麼去試辦啊可以試辦啊用什麼法規依據去試辦啊都不用依法行政了"},{"start":27058.357,"end":27067.628,"text":"就是先跟他說 而且我們已經找到五個部落今年會成功我想到時候我再跟委員報告好不好主委這是完全是違法的你也要訂那個"},{"start":27074.807,"end":27099.496,"text":"部落事辦的辦法部落公法人事辦的辦法你也要定啊在這個之前我們就先去找比較容易成功而且有您紀律的我們先跟他做說明 那才叫事辦啊好 你把那個事辦的計畫提供給我還有你講的這個民主自治草案"},{"start":27100.56,"end":27126.273,"text":"你也知道這個進入立法院已經五進五出嘛這個不容易嘛這個宜江主委已經講了八年了啊確實是五進五出啊啊你說這個土海法的話送到貴宴期齁連討論都沒有討論啊都連排審都沒有排審因為送來的時候這你不了解這我最清楚是我送的送來的時候正好就"},{"start":27129.309,"end":27156.262,"text":"立法委員的任期要結束了這期不聯繫又退回了是這樣的因素並不是沒有審所以這個部分不能因為這樣就不送來好 我們也會整理會再送院長不能因為立法院反而是立法院既然立法院沒有公示就趕快送來嘛不要自己承擔這個責任嘛"},{"start":27158.413,"end":27178.326,"text":"行政院為什麼要去承擔這個責任對不對反過來是這麼一回事確實如主委所說的各方的共識目前一時還沒有辦法達到可以往前再走一大步但是一步一步的往前走這個方向一定是存在的最後時間的關係我本來後面還有議題"},{"start":27182.554,"end":27204.802,"text":"但是重點就是說 我執行過很多次 精良的軍備 要專精的國軍這個預算一直調高提高 沒有問題 國防部長請好 副部長但是我們的志願役逐年下降 志願役"},{"start":27208.223,"end":27225.834,"text":"退伍人數比周末的多志願役士兵人力下降志願役士兵大幅下降這是每年的下降薪資是一個很重要的因素這個薪資每年按照軍公教的調薪3%或4%"},{"start":27229.67,"end":27250.906,"text":"但是紀理跟勞工的基本薪資4萬6千多的平均薪資差距很大我也質詢過這個邱國正部長他答詢說我們多希望提升軍人薪資但是從110年11月2號到現在"},{"start":27254.441,"end":27263.783,"text":"所以這個部分請行政院支持部長就提報部長沒有再好的武器"},{"start":27280.475,"end":27306.798,"text":"在接下來我們請登記第40號郭國文委員請質詢主席有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":27316.035,"end":27323.422,"text":"各位好院長好院長本期這次的總質詢呢首先呢要為這次零一二一的地震的災民來請願"},{"start":27325.615,"end":27347.746,"text":"在零一二一的當天主席院長第一個時間點就馬上到災區裡頭去而且在上禮拜五的時候也應本席的要求馬上同意了住宅的補貼方案本席在那邊表示感謝這一貸款跟租屋補貼都非常的重要"},{"start":27348.786,"end":27369.503,"text":"那你也提到不論行政院或立法院怎麼審查預算但是呢給災民的這個補貼樣樣不能少而且提到說要補助零四比照零四零三的這一種精神跟方式那我們當談到補助的部分我們先談災情的比較我想在數字上給院長參考一下"},{"start":27370.697,"end":27396.282,"text":"因為呢為什麼很多人說為什麼災水那個零一二一的這個部分看起來好像沒有什麼太多的傷亡但是為什麼污損這麼嚴重主要有75%的這個老屋的存在所以都是老屋比較居多再加上這一次地震的強度我給院長參考一下在花蓮的部分它雖然是7.2度然後"},{"start":27399.463,"end":27424.199,"text":"0121雖然是6.4度但是就觀測站的數字Gale這個數字來說的話也就是所謂的地動加速度的部分你去看看垂直向的最高的這個數字在南溪國小是569比起花蓮測站的209是兩倍多另外的部分呢以東西向最高的部分的Gale數據南溪的部分是861"},{"start":27426.021,"end":27436.308,"text":"然後花蓮的部分只有256也就是南溪是花蓮的3.5倍的這種地動加速度再加上呢 房子老"},{"start":27437.165,"end":27451.196,"text":"那老房子又多以至於污損特別的嚴重截至今天早上我統計的數字紅單的部分有500件黃單的部分是1556件未貼單的部分是2065件總共加起來是4121件的污損4121件面對4121件的污損的部分"},{"start":27467.213,"end":27481.06,"text":"要如何去處理當然陳金德政委也提到說要希望台南的善款先優先處理但是依照目前為止目前留下來的0206的善款12億其實是不夠的"},{"start":27485.442,"end":27504.385,"text":"那不夠的原因是這樣如果說你處理黃單跟紅單或許還OK但是如果把未貼單的部分算下去的話就很困難這是目前為止我聽到最多的聲音這是跟院長說明一下一個民間的污損第二個是公共設施的部分"},{"start":27505.236,"end":27529.256,"text":"公設室的部分呢一個是南西的這個陸陶洋的客家聚落的修繕這個中央部會都去過了第二個是學校的部分是南藝大的這個校舍的修繕大概1.6億南西國中也希望原地重建學校的部分第三個是南西市場的部分的原地重建第四個是四大農會的一個修復的工程"},{"start":27530.277,"end":27546.238,"text":"而這些公共設施的部分到目前為止就本席所理解也尚未核定那我在這邊說一下那個院長老實說就0403外界的關注度蠻高的他拿到的善款有16萬"},{"start":27547.728,"end":27565.903,"text":"在零一二一的部分拿到三款只有五千萬相差許多事實上從政災基金會的網站來看的話我覺得政災基金會到目前為止還是很重視零四零三網頁上還是貼了零四零三上面都沒有零一零二"},{"start":27566.86,"end":27588.471,"text":"即便0102到目前為止已經快兩個月了這種情況底下我們是不是應該給0121的這個災民更多的溫暖就有兩個部分再比較一下院長其實我統計過你去花蓮看災的部分第一個時間點就到南溪我想大家都有感受到你的溫暖"},{"start":27589.511,"end":27617.967,"text":"可是相對於你去花蓮市災的部分到本席目前統計已經有七次之多你坐火車非常有誠意但是相對來台南你現在只來一次我不是說次數多一定有誠意但是如果時間有的話可能更多會好一點如果可以的話院長這兩部分的請求能不能請院長有機會來南部的時候來做一個核定之後來做一個宣示第一個公共設施的部分我剛剛列舉了那四項"},{"start":27619.068,"end":27631.202,"text":"第二個的部分呢在台南市立有未待的情況底下在未貼單的部分中央的部分是不是院長可以指示政災基金會能夠多少予以補助讓災民能夠度過這次難關院長請說"},{"start":27634.606,"end":27654.074,"text":"謝謝委員時間我們一定繼續來安排那0121之後我到了現場但之後總統也到了現場他關懷的速度一定次數一定也比我多那至於說我們跟地方政府包括跟黃市長陳主委跟黃市長一直就善款如何使用紅單黃單如何負評"},{"start":27656.949,"end":27673.367,"text":"住宅的部分有一直做相當多的討論那至於剛剛其他的包括學校學校我們也有兩千萬還有另外五百多萬的補助下去另外有一些剛剛列的之外還有江家古厝的文化的一些毀損我們也會另案來做一些"},{"start":27674.008,"end":27698.281,"text":"你做一些必要的修補那另外你提到的那幾個部分客家的部分等等我想都會另案可以再做一個處分院長我在想你應該不會拒絕你應該會同意只是說既然我們要同意合不合定快一點你就下去做個詮釋譬如講以南溪國中的時候政委跟我下去現在就合定一部分是評估費用而已"},{"start":27698.681,"end":27726.257,"text":"那是不是就乾脆就說你就宣布說我就是要原地重建所有費用由中央來出就是這樣子阿沙里一句話就好你就下來宣布一下先把公部門的公共設施做個解決這是其一第二個部分未貼單的部分呢能夠做多少也對外宣布讓大家比較安心能夠趕快恢復生活秩序院長請回答因為這個數量多多到這個負評的時間也拉了長現在最接近的數字我剛剛就給你報告了最新的數字就這樣子"},{"start":27726.877,"end":27747.641,"text":"然後呢 未貼單的部分就2065然後呢 黃紅單就2056就是差在這邊而已政委請給委員報告因為台南市政府在2月6號就正式公告對這些的民宅受損的補貼的原則"},{"start":27750.402,"end":27756.772,"text":"所以已經很明確就是如果拆除的拆除的就是按照徵收條例的"},{"start":27759.488,"end":27784.595,"text":"這個內容我大概就知道了所以這部分就現在盡速把它評出來對 但是它現階段而言紅黃應該都不會有問題是有補助的內容現在argue最多就是未貼單的部分那我比較0403過0403未貼單的部分也是動用那16億的善款而有那我們政災經費目前就我知道大概還有20幾億之多是不是有可能有虞錯"},{"start":27785.655,"end":27805.441,"text":"可以給予那個台南市政府在未貼單部分給予幫助因為這個部分其實在政委的時候的主持的這個會議當中也沒有全然的拒絕啦那如果說有這個可能性的話是不是能夠趕快有所定案讓災民能夠有所移民各位應該是請台南市政府把整個賦品出來"},{"start":27806.301,"end":27827.114,"text":"然後加總數額是多少如果說現有的善款如果真的還不足我們再來共同討論其他的方法不足的部分中央能不能朝向協助的方向先不說金額多少"},{"start":27828.197,"end":27855.777,"text":"應該要先看那個他整個評出來就我知道部分是不足的政委因為他估計他是原來是用每戶多少而事實上是應該現場去看評的修繕有大有小有有那個都有去看那個都有去看其實總體估計起來是不足院長麻煩這部分公部門的部份見早宣布然後私部門的部份見早提出方案各方的數據了解狀況也都相當清楚了那到今天為止剛好經過了對快兩個月了對"},{"start":27858.038,"end":27883.8,"text":"我們會跟主委來商量 我們也跟地方政府來配合我希望我們在月底之前 我們到現場做了解月底之前 好 謝謝 就是聽你這句話月底之前 慎重提出另外一個部分 這個是屬於這個復原的部分 還有一個需要復興的部分復興的部分呢 0403的部分當初我們中央政府對花蓮多重視投入了純五億的政新方案 公關政新方案"},{"start":27884.981,"end":27889.071,"text":"但是呢目前我去中央一樣觀光署要到只有要到兩千萬"},{"start":27890.25,"end":27892.331,"text":"我們當然很重視各地的產業觀光但是您也知道東部就是一條路"},{"start":27920.56,"end":27931.967,"text":"一條公路一條鐵道但是中南部南部我們各種的交通的方式不一定說比照完全比照會重視完全重視那至於說觀光的產業如果受到這樣大的影響是不是交通部還要再繼續的去對"},{"start":27940.532,"end":27959.151,"text":"台南甚至嘉義觀光的產業來做我希望有一個類似於花蓮的一個振興專案出來啦for 0121啦會觀光的部份還有農業部的部長在0121的部份我們景區的應停並沒有受到太大的影響但是確實地震的影響造成一些遊客會減少"},{"start":27961.753,"end":27983.488,"text":"我們會從軟體的部分 也就是活動的部分我們增加活動的經費 多辦一些活動來引客 來吸引客人交通的運輸沒問題 但是活動如果增加讓客人多一些進來 這是我們應該要做的部長我只是提醒你一下 我相信零星的活動會有啦民間也會有 我是希望說我們院裡頭高度的話整合成一個類似的振興專案裡頭讓財民感受到中央政府"},{"start":27984.068,"end":27993.963,"text":"的誠意啦我只是希望這樣子不同於花蓮但是也有一個振興方案啦因為我們已經復原了嘛接下來復興嘛我們跟國防署特別來討論這個事情麻煩好不好然後因為這個振興專案之外山區有一些不一樣的地方"},{"start":28000.612,"end":28025.134,"text":"他有一個古老的問題 目前我們已經有做一些長照機構長照機構的部分能不能加速那現在就我知道的部分 預算也不足 也差了九千萬我就跟院長報告一下 請院長回去慎重評估一下是不是長照的這個機構 目前為止能不能增加一些預算的可能性否則真的搬不出去第三個部分呢 裕豐南河院長期以來的一個限制以至於呢 山區沒有辦法發展"},{"start":28025.794,"end":28048.817,"text":"它現在的用水的定位做一個調整之後呢它將來是有縮邊的可能可以帶動這一個山區的地方發展也就是說它的整個振興的部分有三支箭啊這三個方式一個呢因為震災來的振興方案二來呢長照機構來因應那些的高齡化的問題三來的部分呢這個整個保護區的一個縮邊也可以帶動山區的發展"},{"start":28049.718,"end":28077.182,"text":"我請院長回去好好評估一下因為我現在講你可能不能馬上理解請您慎重評估可不可以謝謝委員如果真的影響到長照那是萬萬不得我們一定馬上做處理 查久先我們馬上速度做處理那其他的官委員建議的部分我們也會同等重視好的那另外一個部分跟本席選區有所相關那兩位就先請另外一個部分在我們海邊的部分花了很多時間在做太陽能"},{"start":28077.915,"end":28094.006,"text":"那過去太陽能當中的這個綠能當中呢其實啊我在去年十月的時候就問過那個郭部長再生能源發展條例十二條之一的部分的執法有關於興建增建義務的這個裝修光電的方向就是要讓屋頂型的光電能夠增加"},{"start":28094.907,"end":28112.346,"text":"但是呢 國務部長在去年也有提到2025 20MW 8MW是屬於屋頂12是屬於地面型的部分的目標延後一年但目前為止地面型因為爭議非常的大只停留在5到6GW而已必須靠屋頂型 屋頂型已經達標了"},{"start":28113.607,"end":28140.751,"text":"可是我們看到為了減少這種地面型的負擔這是第一個爭議地面型的負擔通常都是在偏鄉通常都在農漁村也就是說非人口密集區的部分它承擔了很多政策的負擔七股就是這種例子但是在都會區裡頭用電是最多的大概有六成之多他們負擔反而比較少以至於屋頂型的部分是可以作為平衡發展的可能性但是喔"},{"start":28141.724,"end":28169.585,"text":"這一個最近國土署內政部國土署在2月公布了這個執法建築法設置太陽能光電的這一個標準草案目前還在一個公告期60天的公告期你去看喔它要300坪以上 院長300坪以上可以設置光電只有10%而已而這10%當中我還請人家換算起來這300坪的標準來說的話增加裝置的容量大概多少"},{"start":28170.285,"end":28191.722,"text":"只有0.15提高啊0.15提高啊這個代表沒有實質的效果嘛我們地面型既然已經沒有辦法成長屋頂型已經達標就計畫說屋頂型來補地面型的情況底下你這個又限縮到這種程度怎麼可能達到這個目標呢為了公共設施沒有到300坪你沒有可能達到這個目標啊"},{"start":28192.483,"end":28219.52,"text":"更何況將來你如果要透過金融機構要落實ESG的責任的可能性更加不可能嘛所以現在在法令公告期的情況底下我們如果說像郭部長所說的2025的目標要延到2026我跟你講你2026這個目標一樣會再延啦一樣沒有辦法達到啦會變成這種結果 院長這怎麼辦啊報告委員我們就是朝著這個不延期的這個目標努力"},{"start":28233.531,"end":28235.012,"text":"我們現在休息十分鐘休息之後繼續進行質詢"},{"start":28810.236,"end":28811.717,"text":"法務院會我們繼續質詢 接下來我們請謝龍介委員請質詢左院長 請到左院長"},{"start":28837.659,"end":28844.881,"text":"麻煩請卓院長我對債庫來了大家都在問債務,今天都是我們台南的辛苦,臨時來的我告訴你大家先感謝你,對台南的照顧"},{"start":28865.968,"end":28892.019,"text":"感謝這應該大家都應該這樣做但是因為他們沒有在重點受到災害 個人都應該這樣做災民 還沒安在這裡還沒過出來 你要怎麼多錢給他 你也沒辦法你剛才他們外地 我跟你說很危險我是去看啊喔 外地去看 要說好誰因為我外地一定會去看 改國我就給你勾勒啊你呢感謝你啊 感謝你給我勾勒那齁"},{"start":28897.796,"end":28919.155,"text":"你實在是表現很好 優良 演技十足不知道你有沒有一百港幣我看你的演講是很厲害的你以前出來 我看我就沒辦法了我認為那不是演講 我是在說老實話演講就是演講你說老實話 待會我就告訴你什麼叫老實話"},{"start":28927.045,"end":28938.031,"text":"我會在南西的在庫啦在裡面說很多人三不足啦只有你吃了就把錢拿來而已我為什麼要這樣說因為你們是公保門 人家修理的改革整理的都要你們負責嘛 對不對但是安提的過程中有很多說法不能開的"},{"start":28956.735,"end":28977.771,"text":"有一些不便的啦 吃虧的無所不知啦所以我們很懷疑我跟報告委員我又跟台南市國民黨的黨團議會 跟毛黨的黨團因為周一期的在地議員嘛我們跟四五百的在民 副市長五人的局長都在那邊跟他們亂動我才知道 我是很感謝你齁"},{"start":28986.94,"end":28994.683,"text":"我說中央你如果沒有算一個數字,你是中央什麼?你們就乖乖清清地看這一間八十八里八百,還不是數字?中央要怎麼幫你處理啊?還是好知道呢,當我熱情地做起床的時候,0206那四十三億的成款,冬季時要去做土壤移化,我就把它凍起來,大約存二十八億。"},{"start":29016.617,"end":29020.741,"text":"風太開開,還有十方月多,一百個可以贏的,不是真淒慘的結果我財民跟我說,哎唷,兩家夭壽咯,那兩間議長說你們倆有夠無損的,都沒有衛生紙還能贏啊叫我把這支衣服衛生紙趕快帶給你先贏啊"},{"start":29036.493,"end":29042.117,"text":"他說你比他們更慘 我說沒有啊 你們每天都這麼慘他說沒有啊 鄉親比我們更慘說記者要來採訪 要扁桑 要自己找衛生紙還要我掛一句話說什麼拜託 你拜託道義還有另外一車 送給監察員 說監察員沒有衛生紙就要跟委員講 要送給監察員對啊 對啊 對啊所以 財民都有看"},{"start":29063.803,"end":29081.291,"text":"所以我說你剛才的演講表現不錯你剛才打起來我是對於衝刺機台嘛搞不好我也是衝刺機台的早期東華運動就是說衝突 特約有一些進步但是你這次來衝突 衝突 再衝突"},{"start":29093.516,"end":29104.407,"text":"當然你若要說,哇這無所不知啦我是歎息跟你錄啦,因為我對你一向很尊敬啦一百四十年,咱國的武聖齁,是,你不用看那些了,那些小子跟你講"},{"start":29116.8,"end":29135.575,"text":"一百四十年就對了,我們國有算是一條七千七百六十幾億一百五年是一條八千兩百二十四億一百六十年是一條八千四百十億,這是臨轉做議長的時候到我們現在這樣做議長,是一條九千六百六十九億"},{"start":29144.056,"end":29148.558,"text":"到所預料來講是2條空776億所預料做到181年單件年預料來講2條6千891億到度預料在去年來是2條8千589億今年有算起來有差不多2條9千986億差不多中間3條"},{"start":29171.767,"end":29178.449,"text":"他在挨被叫,這樣也沒辦法,這樣也沒辦法,這樣也沒辦法,這樣也沒辦法你在這大中間,給我打電話給我蘇英中?沒有嘛你跟青島老總統在說,你是不是肥民的中間,跟我說,總統啊"},{"start":29194.312,"end":29203.981,"text":"啊你以前一條高清軌道是怎麼做的,你靠我做這樣,做得不錯餒你常常說你做行政移動做得不錯餒一條高清軌道餒現在搞了你兩條高清軌道,你說沒辦法做這點我是覺得說,你不是沒辦法做因為你總要靜地化了這個這樣可笑了我過去對你的淫脈,不是這樣"},{"start":29222.045,"end":29230.087,"text":"所以 很多人在跟我說 法令就被簽了 我說沒意義啦來到國會的電燈 大家又要喝水燒噴不是改革活動的方式啦我記一下的例子給你看當我們普京來做美國總統的時候 現在有二十個在我們統國五省的時候他這樣堆堆在國會 國會的中間"},{"start":29253.744,"end":29265.007,"text":"馬斯克這樣把他查了,他再拜託人家把自己政府裡面的巫生不懂的、浪費的、消謀的,隆重把他抓起來這樣刪差不多兩條的美金,送進來過去,老總統在做市長的時候,你問單叔叔,說得對我在俄羅斯公寓,災情的紀錄不錯"},{"start":29283.402,"end":29292.766,"text":"現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣"},{"start":29312.483,"end":29322.629,"text":"他說一戶戶要給他發五千塊美金五千塊美金五千塊美金五千塊美金多少台幣十六萬十六萬我最近認識這個美國朋友我感覺他越來越有魄力我在新加坡也有一個朋友姓吳叫做吳孫宅"},{"start":29342.358,"end":29346.719,"text":"嘿嘿 新加坡人一個人要發兩萬澳門稅金撤銷 17人來每一個澳門的國民發四萬的代表所以國民黨的提案 今年撤銷差不多五千三百億"},{"start":29367.638,"end":29394.969,"text":"2年2年2年2年3年呢 隆重啊 銷售的稅金出的來時要有1票 空600 60億所以在你的手裡呢 能應用到很多啦 應該找到好好的資料去探討一下我們台出 反水移民 台灣台出市到巴黎河 一人大小漢堡輪都而已一萬"},{"start":29399.011,"end":29410.454,"text":"這樣就要兩千三百四十億這是合情合理的但是我知道你們不可能讓我這麼好睡那你國民黨拿一萬你可能會加萬億萬五啦我落關幾成啊錢又貪得有了改欠就欠改開就開讓人民有一點幸福感有時候要扭轉利"},{"start":29425.342,"end":29430.685,"text":"會去死,我待會會再跟你說你現在的願意度到哪裡,到副成員頭到尾,整座庭,我們的臨環政策,很快都破亂你補台台,我聽不下去有什麼,說補一千億,他就不會把我們去掉,你胡說八道的"},{"start":29447.073,"end":29472.094,"text":"他給我們補三倍一千億 給我們企業企四倍他都說有風波啊 他在做風吹發電啊你給他補一千億也沒意義啦 一千億補他 沒補他 現在還要給他企業企各位 我們的民生喔 要結合差不多一百塊至一百二塊沒有關係啦 你就給人民一人給發一萬啦"},{"start":29475.678,"end":29500.618,"text":"他們的立定是過頭過臉啦報紙貸款,一筆賭最盡責心、公斷我最高潔這就是靈丸政策的不懂無心不作啦公主公有說嗎無約束、無減銷禮約束這不得減銷禮這代數不行吃雞都沒辦法嘛"},{"start":29505.626,"end":29532.587,"text":"但是這不是你的精神啊你人吃不來 你想要扭轉也再十個月來 沒看到啊沒看到你扭轉天坤的效力 因為什麼?你點門在中央屋道這最可笑在這裡啦用什麼精神 大家來講大家來想想 沒有那個做不高的"},{"start":29534.733,"end":29545.419,"text":"你如果做不到了 回去問蘇貞昌 問賴清德 問鄧建銀看是怎麼做 你家的過去可以做我倒行逮 現在沒辦法人家做我現在來跟你說這個打雜 你現在剛才在看齁跟人家看得這麼辛苦我可以講幾件就好嗎 跟你報告幾件事你剛才在說雨傘 今年雨傘差不多三條嘛有年假淡泊嘛 是啊是啊有時候我沒辦法做"},{"start":29564.069,"end":29591.883,"text":"你知不知道這三條裡面有兩千八百六十六項是幾年沒的這新增事項我告訴你喔新增也好啦 估計也好啦叫做協商啦你說這麼多拜你都沒聽到啊兩千八百零六頁新增事項這個新增事項如果把它補掉因為宗教在這裡也跟你們說啊有自愛難行 冠軍上來奔回"},{"start":29592.685,"end":29594.75,"text":"你現在總統 也不會說話我在復會之前就說了總統也不會說話沒關係來說一句啦"},{"start":29601.976,"end":29607.481,"text":"所以很牽連 我說新政事項2800年你不應該用這種國會心情去騙百姓我沒騙你下鄉我也下鄉啦你下鄉我也下鄉你下鄉我也下鄉"},{"start":29624.701,"end":29636.108,"text":"不會說會人 不會在說地方不是你講你的 我講我的不是這樣 聖誕節 國會我們得罪就是事實但是你不來講不來講 你為什麼要擁護水龍和水盆不行啦有要來講 不要來講 好啦好啦韓院長請入座我告訴你 你也是我的詐騙的電話嗎"},{"start":29656.581,"end":29667.972,"text":"你都沒在接電話,我打給你你也沒在接我打給你變詐騙電話我打給你變詐騙電話我叫是詐騙電話所以我沒在接啦我不顯示號碼就對了,好來你覺得NCC有來嗎?你來,這二、三個可能沒什麼了解,但是很需要"},{"start":29682.676,"end":29711.008,"text":"有MC就是說,當機時NCC是很好,要讓電話的公司業務開墾更好你聽到沒有?這是電信主義法的時候會宣佈的所以當機時有這個阿台電信跟台灣之星電信公司結果因為他們大哥大不釋放但是現在我們所有的"},{"start":29712.59,"end":29719.613,"text":"衍慶公司都有事化 有大割大你覺得你當時開放這個業務就對了 告訴我我們家有一個電話 事化我要打出來 我打給卓院長 我給你顯示賴清德的來電號嘛顯示賴清德的大割大 可以嗎 不可以可以 不可以"},{"start":29734.397,"end":29757.915,"text":"跟委員報告,那我們的號碼,就是互聯辦法裡頭有規定必須要有透通性,必須要撥的號碼跟售貨方的號碼必須要一致那如果他是選擇兩段式的撥接的方式的話那是有存在一些灰色地帶你看,認得嗎?炸片這麼多,可以做得到嗎?這樣太過量要死"},{"start":29760.953,"end":29767.136,"text":"我告訴你現在電話卡出就對了,不然我靠你的孫子,我顯示你太太的電話合併你知不知道?你對,我驚訝不?"},{"start":29782.093,"end":29793,"text":"我用集團,而且他為什麼?跟我一樣,我這支電話喔我今天卡,你知道的照片嗎?我明明知道可以改造韓國瑜的電話號碼顯示,來電顯示,但是我是用這支電話卡的他只要每天申請,每天申請報,檢查官,檢證書,書店有來嗎?內政部長"},{"start":29809.753,"end":29829.533,"text":"你要去查?要去查就怎樣?我電訊就叫你來公文啦!要現金啦!一筆來賺錢就賺錢啦!民間的還會賠還不民間的?我問你要查這筆?這筆半年金我就跟主要給你咧!社群網路電話部分我們現在正在處理,下個月大概就會有一些網組跟語音警示"},{"start":29834.986,"end":29848.233,"text":"主委你怎麼不說話我先喝 詐騙的手段詐騙的手段一直在講詞啦 我要跟著上訴肚子這麼嚴重 是是是我告訴你 這真是所有現時出來詐騙的靠你的電話都假的 你看到的訊息都假的一般我們家用電話 我們不吃肉啦你也不吃 我也不吃肉 你聽到嗎 除非我們家的電話啦"},{"start":29861.482,"end":29864.164,"text":"所以他現在說你敢顯示是大誇大的辯護大小人就叫我騙他你看我們的詐騙的看多少就好了所以我不是在跟你借錢,我是在說要怎麼面對,對症下藥啊吃到藥,吃草吃一條啦吃不到藥,你零三就吃一條啦,你聽到沒有所以"},{"start":29886.311,"end":29908.747,"text":"這個就是說 電信你怎麼給他整個叫電信自由法單純電話的這回合專修你這樣就不可以 整個這件事不都修修起來 不有意義啦這段 保釋到那個詐騙集團警察官跟警察查查查 查到這個電話的來頭查到了 後來是上車 他再給你換一支電話"},{"start":29913.732,"end":29927.338,"text":"又換一支電話 兩天可以換一半你不知道啦你你不知道啦 你不提供給我你不提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我"},{"start":29939.04,"end":29939.841,"text":"現在進行是了現在進行是了"},{"start":29968.567,"end":29981.003,"text":"你有沒有覺得是各位我要求我們所有的部委,有關的部委馬上提出一個,因為這個看起來這個行為,來看我們是既然了解他的行為,我們就要想出對策"},{"start":29982.95,"end":29999.204,"text":"我們已經提出對峙了我現在是跟你說這各位啦 我的意思是說 你們如果真的好玩等這各位今天全國的人民都聽到這種情報 他們都有每天收到這個詐騙的電話啦你看 他的內心是多痛 你知道嗎 本來政府是可以作動的啦我不敢說大街上沒有詐騙啦喔 但是一定有好的工作 我們要做啦好 再來喔"},{"start":30013.049,"end":30030.819,"text":"這點就是我要說的留學生的問題很可憐,我們自己賣,人還是法國的孩子才會不要這樣一百零二年內,我們境外的學生差不多三四萬人,你知道嗎?同期是2013年高中生的,來我們這裡讀高中的,九百三十六個"},{"start":30041.377,"end":30055.906,"text":"九百三十六個,一百零二年的時期,在鄉下北上,下面那些樸瀉的那些就是高中生啊,這上面這是大專生啊,所以大專生是正常的行動嘛,你看下面這樸瀉的高中生,一百零二年是九百三十六個,一百三十年耶,"},{"start":30063.906,"end":30072.269,"text":"變成境外的大學生,學生當中是九萬一千的但是高中生,對九百三十六個變一萬三千的高中生來我們台灣留學的這支,在天下十幾你不知道看的這批報告很清楚這叫做血汗跟血汗鑽石一樣"},{"start":30093.348,"end":30111.321,"text":"他就去做工 他不是來託車麻不吃麻不吃 吃吃不喝麻建交合作他去台北跟山東那些核心說這三十幾間行都佔了六島的 台灣一流的裡面有人來台灣託過車我們以前的託車是不是很多 矯正有人來台灣託過車說 這裡的核心我比較不會聽過不會聽過"},{"start":30121.26,"end":30126.582,"text":"打起來大開始都要退場的結果讓這核心裡面來的建教合作那一種教學合作就從工廠去好聽說去實施我跟妳說我三十幾年前在做工廠外銷我有一些工作在法務部的感覺在做"},{"start":30147.899,"end":30148.58,"text":"我不是要問他啦"},{"start":30163.131,"end":30181.398,"text":"因為這過程 因為你剛提到的這部分我讓你們注意一下因為那篇報導事實上是一個偽專題我敢在這邊解說 因為有三個大錯誤第一個數字引用錯誤來啦 你聽我說我們沒有講的話 三個字改差所以委員我沒有用你的陳證欸 主委 我沒有用你的話啦我不是在哭你哄你 你跟他們說什麼他們說什麼啦不是 這些學生是很認真來學習的啦"},{"start":30192.759,"end":30210.566,"text":"不要給他貼標籤啦你看 啊 如果是這樣 不然我們還不知道在工廠查什麼啊委員我們都有去看 我們都開始去 各個企業去看你們去看都漂亮啦 委員你也可以去企業看嘛你們去看都難免啦 因為我是媳婦出來的啦我是要跟你說 奉旨給美國這個領款 我們簽的領款都公約了"},{"start":30220.472,"end":30231.842,"text":"尤其這裏面有卡在二聖殿我們真正是靈魂的問題,所以集體不準,靈魂的問題你這樣責罪了真好,我這個處理我要讓他知道?當然我...甲親姐,我不在乎,我不跟你說你怎麼樣對不對"},{"start":30240.595,"end":30250.53,"text":"因為他們說這個問題最主要是社會的關注如果跟他有主觀、有關、尤其沒有,請你出來說明你去查清楚,我們再來對話嘛我們就查過了"},{"start":30253.928,"end":30271.938,"text":"是真假真假,但是真假不是壞事查國外申啦讓他好好,我可以修律,工場有工人請,好事啦,好事查國外申對我們的勞力很高,政績很好,我給你額熱一下這都是多贏啊,請問一下,請問一下,請問一下,請問一下,請問一下"},{"start":30281.687,"end":30287.349,"text":"協委員的鼓勵,我們會持續的團隊努力補充加油補充加油民進黨裡面最近這個網絡負聲量你是算筆數,你是第二名算筆論,你又抄襪寡見名"},{"start":30309.687,"end":30337.559,"text":"你說變第一名,所以這就是我對你不甘的所在你的過去不是這樣的人啊,政治人物以我齁你再選過第一名的曹新成齁你看,他才69.98%而已結果你73.87%我現在想你探討的就是說政策跟施政,到底你是有什麼正義的你落在你所安排到政策的推動"},{"start":30340.029,"end":30352.577,"text":"你有沒有感覺,你不是只挑戰在野動民,你還在挑戰人民挑戰人民的底線讓它失敗,一直在在地上,三二四,四二五我們台灣,坦白說,教育的普及,大家對民主的作用都很侵犯差不多我們每一個人身上都有民主的DNA"},{"start":30366.138,"end":30388.39,"text":"但是你卡不住就避暗無啊,你都替中國講話,你都同費啊,有的沒的這個主人,你是不要對我講啦,但是最好保我所謂的保肥手段啦,也能在我身上固定啦你去等他問多少天,看他對我這樣講的時候,我什麼反應?人齁,政敵利益,可以增,就像郡主愛宅出一幼的一樣"},{"start":30395.513,"end":30423.945,"text":"聖地里的靈科特長處 無法求中求堅強 規矩 無法等所以你並不是說有做什麼不對啊所以變成你贏這麼多人才 但事情沒兩點出來你給北省誤會說 啊他都沒人才所以出來跟人才那些都好處相憑我告訴你也不是 這些都人才啊像這個郭新聞 我帶來的啊"},{"start":30426.315,"end":30435.321,"text":"像中聯營的營長 像這主委這種做不熟的啊 我跟你說的事情這個電視都沒有了 這種全開了還有一個不認識的但是所有你這條線上的煙霧裡這個認識的所作的事情沒有辦法突顯出來就變成沒有辦法突顯到你倒下去的情節"},{"start":30454.569,"end":30473.124,"text":"出來的時候都變負評了整個都想的啊這樣不是對你來說不公平 又做不得我可以很虛心來接受所有的批評但是你看那個運動部長爭議後面現在鄭士忠 那就假的事情了鬧那個爭議鬧那個爭議鬧那個爭議運動部長爭議鄭士忠鬧那個爭議來"},{"start":30484.079,"end":30506.166,"text":"我告訴你 能源政策失能 我們現在能源政策穩定的找多元綠能欸 阿哥這段我給你解說 能源政策你解說了怎麼回事只要一點啦 就是說 如果只要 柏惟委員的意見就是說我如果把河山廠賣給園藝就不會失能不是這樣 我告訴你 我為什麼剛才跟你說吃緊都不會破碗 當然是"},{"start":30509.5,"end":30535.126,"text":"國民黨主席說 以和養力我們都需要綠能 但是我們知道綠能起來不夠快速啊所以 維新婦人繼續在全世界婦人店舖四十年後期都會延長二十年偏偏啊 整棟圍著二公二五年會婦人的家屬這個新珠牌啊 我當然不期待你去突破但是"},{"start":30536.926,"end":30542.317,"text":"李鴻麗已經回臨過去了我幾年就跟你說了嘛過去了 你們已經達成宿命了現在就可以叫經濟部 叫他們去研究"},{"start":30548.479,"end":30565.293,"text":"免費加費 請你就可以選擇我告訴你 婦嬰婦女婦嬰 你要知道的原因有多嚴重因為現在是暫停 要保存五年所以那都沒問題在Token 基礎安全的狀況下"},{"start":30566.974,"end":30573.963,"text":"我們希望可以快速恢復這12%的用電 這樣對你未來的市場 越好投資 那時候你就益虧重點了我現在新的想法 減碳先行 目標淨零"},{"start":30585.063,"end":30601.887,"text":"我告訴你 你的金銀碳牌做不夠 為什麼?因為北企北當 所有的整碳都空洞嘛所以我們現在看到澳銀所有的規定 我們都不停不急啦但是你開始在做啦包括這個彭啟民 開市 有一個好的開市 OK跟你講話 雖然現在沒有選擇"},{"start":30612.29,"end":30639.293,"text":"但是這次是好的開始面對世界的凋流那麼世界的凋流就是希望恢復福林美國 日本 澳洲 隆重開啟認真福林電廠的項手希望你們的年可以聽到你開啟福林永電的好聲音好消息就是能夠認真和平 你就贊成我 對不對"},{"start":30640.918,"end":30653.966,"text":"你開口沒人安傳我還要贊成呢安傳我是沒贊成的這個命題是有問題的嘛我虛心接受,繼續努力,謝謝委員好,謝謝謝榮介委員的質詢,謝謝主委院長各部會所長的對詢接下來接下來我們等謝榮介委員把這些帶來的班總,我們再繼續質詢"},{"start":30689.693,"end":30694.216,"text":"好 謝謝醫事處 辛苦接下來我們請登記第42位 沈伯陽委員請質詢"},{"start":30708.5,"end":30709.18,"text":"謝謝主席,有請院長,謝謝麻煩在請卓院長備詢"},{"start":30748.503,"end":30769.012,"text":"因為上個禮拜賴總統有記者會有一個關於我們現在民主受到很多的滲透中國的攻擊等等之類的國家安全現在要守衛所以我今天用這個民主保衛戰作為一個名稱但是因為裡面有很多的法案是過去一年我們已經推出的"},{"start":30769.472,"end":30787.532,"text":"所以我特別針對裡面的大概是第十五還第十六點關於這一個資訊安全關於認知作戰這一塊我認為還是有必要離與離境所以我今天大概是問這邊有列三個一個是跟經濟安全有關大概就是像日本2019年一直到現在一直在做那個經濟安全保障"},{"start":30788.132,"end":30812.697,"text":"那另外一塊是跟資通安全有關有可能會等一下要請到這個書法部的部長那公民的權利我看今天時間可能會來不及但是我剛剛有先跟這個市方部長先聊過所以我可能會著重在前面這兩塊那第一個呢我從這個經濟安全保障開始就是川普2.0以來就是台美關係其實在這邊呢有很多字但是重點就是那紅色的就是一直在講晶片"},{"start":30813.317,"end":30835.533,"text":"那我看今天還有到上個禮拜就是很多委員的質詢就一直也都是在針對晶片台積電現在去美國啊會不會被吃掉啊什麼等等之類的那我覺得有點搔不到癢處啦我們現在的整個半導體的聚落呢在台灣其實算是非常的重要我們本身就是一個半導體的熱點那我之前呢就在辦公室的時候我們就請"},{"start":30836.684,"end":30863.559,"text":"辦公室來做一個很簡單的這種商業很常識的這個SWAT的分析就是說我們現在半導體目前我們的機會跟我們的威脅到底是什麼那其實我們的機會一直以來都是因為美國對於先進這個晶片製造它有某種程度的不安那它也是想要把一些製程把它放在美國那這也是我們的機會因為我們有這個非紅供應鏈有民主供應鏈嘛但是國民黨很喜歡把這個放在T就是Threads"},{"start":30864.039,"end":30878.775,"text":"他認為說沒有這就是美國要吃掉我們的證據那用這樣來散播一些以美論不過我認為他們有一個點是我們真的必須要注意的就是其實美國在擔心晶片這件事情他最擔心的地方其實還是技術的外流"},{"start":30879.514,"end":30903.381,"text":"也就是說呢我們如果作為一個節點我們被中國滲透的那麼嚴重結果我們的技術竟然被中國拿去我認為這才是美國最擔心的地方所以整件事情我們本來好好的從日本到德國到美國這樣的一個佈局台積電遍佈全球它本來是一個好的產業佈局但裡面就會有一個漏洞就是如果今天台灣成為白手套要怎麼辦"},{"start":30904.4,"end":30928.291,"text":"所以在這邊呢 這都是這陣子的新聞 這個3月4號才一個禮拜前的新聞而已新加坡就破獲這個中國幫買輝達晶片的白手套我記得是逮捕了三個人左右然後呢 這個華爾街日報在3月2號的時候也有特別點名到台灣就說我們是不是成為一個購買輝達NVIDIA伺服器的白手套"},{"start":30928.971,"end":30954.15,"text":"所以這件事情呢我在這個不是我現在要問的問題但你可以看到這是我之前的PowerPoint這是2024年10月30的時候那時候我有問部長有問這個經濟部我那時候也有問教育部就是關於說這一些交流還有一些公司成為白手套之後我們到底有沒有把他們當作我們管制上的一個清單那時候有算人科技嘛比特大陸嘛他背後有華為嘛"},{"start":30955.131,"end":30984.297,"text":"那時候我們有跟這一個經濟部的專員其實已經討論過他很忌妒他要做更新等等之類的那這一個只是可是我認為這可能只是最低階的因為你今天把它列到這一個產品的名單上面或者你把它放在這個出口的管制上面這可能是遠遠不夠因為這個並沒有解決假設他們的人來這邊做滲透他們把技術偷走要怎麼辦所以我今年有提案就是說去年有提案國安法第三條跟這個兩岸條例第九條"},{"start":30985.077,"end":31012.907,"text":"都是針對這個技術竊取來特別做相關的規範所以在這邊想要問就是院長因為我們現在去年大概提了十部法律的修法很多都跟經濟安全有關但我們現在等待的是院版就是說有些法案一直被藍白卡住那個沒話講但有些我們是在等待院版的出現所以針對第一個就是技術外流這件事情相關法規範的盤點有沒有可能在這一個會期來進行"},{"start":31015.872,"end":31031.783,"text":"現在委員提到的重要的內容相關的法案行政院代表政府應該在必要的時候尤其是現在這個關鍵的時刻拿出政府的態度弄一個符合現在這個安全上所需要的版本"},{"start":31032.783,"end":31049.352,"text":"絕對是政府應該做的事情但是我們是希望說 朝野內部 朝野黨團之間的意見能夠再趨於一致那這 行政院員在這個時候跟大家討論以後形成一個共同的版本也可以這一點就要拜託院長 然後部長是不是要補充什麼我們已經要來徵定這個經濟間的罪來修正兩岸條例"},{"start":31053.694,"end":31070.359,"text":"那院長也有責成我們法務部調查局跟國安局入委會勞動部以及經濟部成立這個跨部會工作小組強化機關之間的橫向聯繫加強查緝相關不法活動因為我們認為如果不"},{"start":31071.215,"end":31086.487,"text":"很重乏的對經濟安全來講的話確實如委員所指正的很容易把這些訊息給流露出去那一定要透過法務部嚴懲那才會產生效益"},{"start":31089.738,"end":31105.073,"text":"因為部長我覺得這邊講到一個重點就是說假設我們今天要做管制但是我們一定要有查緝的量能其實如果沒有查緝的量能或者沒有回報的機制等於說你把它擺在那邊這個經濟安保也不容易建立所以這也是我認為法務部應該要扮演蠻重要的一個角色"},{"start":31105.794,"end":31129.605,"text":"那在這邊呢我剛好在這一個二月的時候有去聽美國一場聽證會他也在講這件事情他裡面就有做了幾個建議第一個加強出口管制跟投資的限制然後智慧的貿易限制但這一個呢其實對我們台灣來講還要再做一個轉換因為晶片本身是放在技術類它不是終端的產品嘛所以單純做這樣的一個貿易限制可能還不夠完整"},{"start":31130.245,"end":31153.118,"text":"第二個他提到國家級的技術要有一個風險評估的單位這個日本現在是有一個專責單位從19年做到現在就專門在做經濟安保了第三個就是要追蹤中國的技術發展我認為台灣不管是經濟部還是事務發部應該有這個能力做這一個美方那時候在聽證會的這三個建議那這個才是我們真的我們投資美國"},{"start":31153.758,"end":31172.613,"text":"我們又建立了非紅的產業鏈然後又符合相關的規範不是說最基本的什麼資安CMMC的規範那麼簡單而已而是這整體的大方向跟美國一起來做協作不過這邊我就有點擔心就是因為剛剛講的因為技術類的畢竟它是晶片是屬於技術類我們目前貿易法13條跟兩岸條例的35條"},{"start":31174.835,"end":31190.877,"text":"大部分都是可以看到這個文字高科技貨品的出口的實體管理名單比如說輸往俄羅斯白俄羅斯高科技的貨品的清單就是國家核心的關鍵技術很難直接扣在這個貿易法跟兩岸條例"},{"start":31191.417,"end":31209.492,"text":"所以這是這一個會期我覺得我們蠻重要的工作既然總統已經在談話裡面說到說我們今天針對中國的滲透跟威脅要越來越多的願板要出現嘛那我覺得除了剛剛因為剛剛講的是人我們剛剛提到的兩岸條例的那一個修正跟國安法的修正是針對人那個人留我們來做修正"},{"start":31210.112,"end":31220.488,"text":"這一個部分的是貿易法跟兩岸條例是針對這一些看起來是貨品物品但其實我們是要針對技術的方面把它涵蓋進去做修正我覺得這兩個可能都要並行"},{"start":31222.25,"end":31248.193,"text":"所以總統那些材質裡面就是人流物流 音流 技術要有序的調整我們也知道我們現在已經要求了內控外控都要做到什麼東西該進來不該進來尤其重要我們重要的零組件或是晶片要出去去到哪裡如果違法 違規違法的人我們現在的法令我感覺惡阻力不夠 情度不高所以效果不佳我們會從這個方向來著手"},{"start":31249.981,"end":31274.181,"text":"謝謝院長 那我就希望至少我們從人流物流的這兩個方向我們都來做立法看這一個會期至少能夠討論出一個大方向那另外一個是這個我不知道院長會怎麼想就是說就像我剛剛一直提到的以日本為例他就是有一個主責的一個單位他是直接就是在他們的那一個部長部長室不是部長室就他們的首長室他管的是全部橫跨每一個部門的經濟安全"},{"start":31274.821,"end":31287.562,"text":"因為我這一方面我就做了一些研究就是目前跟經濟安全有關的部門當然最重要的當然是經濟部這是沒問題又產發署但其實經濟部最近是有一部分擱到抒發部這是一個"},{"start":31288.277,"end":31313.282,"text":"再來國科會會管到我們的核心關鍵的技術陸委會 剛剛這個邱委員長已經馬上發現了所以就上來了就是兩岸條例的這個頭審嘛 對不對然後外交部的國際多邊出口管制的體制的寫作法務部就是剛剛部長提到的查緝的這個問題還有調查這個中資甲界那種外資去竊取的問題教育部會有造冊的問題"},{"start":31314.222,"end":31337.826,"text":"因為他要造冊我們才知道到底哪裡要管理所以就變成說他有點太過於跨部門了所有的現在經濟安全我們要保護我們的國家關鍵基礎技術幾乎每一個部門都有這就跟之前我們在跟國防部在詢問的時候說這個解放軍的學校如果念過解放軍學校的人來到台灣我們應該要怎麼辦後來就國防部處理完之後發現沒有教育部也要處理因為這些人呢"},{"start":31338.326,"end":31354.606,"text":"到底他們的學歷認證我們台灣應該怎麼看待所以會變成每一個層面都會牽涉到那一個部分的國家安全那經濟安全現在我覺得也面臨這樣的一個問題所以不知道有沒有可能就是我知道用政委直接來主責這件事情當然有可能"},{"start":31355.2,"end":31372.864,"text":"又是國家預算上的一個問題啦但是有沒有可能不管是用一個辦公室或者用政委或者直接是院長去主責這整個經濟安全的法制那我們就可以把整個法制建構起來裡面就可以處理到剛剛提到的人流還有金流還有剛剛資訊流還有這一個技術的問題"},{"start":31375.865,"end":31402.298,"text":"要看院長或部長有沒有想要補充這一塊報告委員我們在我們的這個智庫裡面有專責的智庫在研究這一個問題有之前像國科會的D-SAT什麼也做了很多但有時候我是怕說什麼就是比如說他們叫不動其他的部會因為他牽扯太廣了有時候這一個部會做了但是另外一個部會不知道這件事情的嚴重性那就會形成一個漏洞所以如果能夠有更高的一個協調機制的話其實對這整體的建構會比較好"},{"start":31405.279,"end":31420.016,"text":"那我知道這個其實是一個大規劃所以不一定現在就必須要給一個答案委員包括兩個現狀現狀就是在部會裡面他們都有內部的會議他們會就他們的目的世界主管去做嚴格的考核那麼"},{"start":31420.683,"end":31435.374,"text":"由政務委員組成的政務會議每個禮拜都會召開都會在裡面有重要的必須拿來大家互相協力完成的政務會議是一個很好的平台我會加強委員所說的這個部分加強"},{"start":31436.898,"end":31462.795,"text":"經濟、資通、安全上面的考量謝謝那因為時間的關係我剛剛講的都是關鍵基礎技術我現在想講一下關鍵基礎設施那最近因為治安案件頻傳就是常常被攻擊裡面當然就是最近發生的這個馬街醫院還有張機有沒有就是他們的資料外洩被駭客攻擊我想這個大家應該都很熟悉了我就不多說那因為畢竟醫院也算是關鍵基礎設施的一環所以至少我們的速發部是能夠去幫忙的"},{"start":31463.215,"end":31490.878,"text":"就是說他要怎麼去建置這個資安啊要怎麼去防止未來的攻擊啊但現在我有一點比較擔心的是這一個就是院長應該知道最近我們立法院通過一個叫做公益階幣者保護法應該知道這部法律吧那這部法律呢還沒有實行但這部法律裡面很特別他就說你今天要階幣的時候呢你可以跟民意代表階幣你可以去跟媒體業者階幣你可以跟法人登記的公益團體階幣"},{"start":31492.612,"end":31513.987,"text":"法人登記的公益團體說真的這邊指的當然就是公益階壁者這個保護協會嘛這個保護協會的理事過去曾經擔任過理事長的就是這個我照片放大這一位這個大家可以看他一下俊俏的臉龐所以呢在這件事情上面對我來講呢簡單來說你可以帶你的資料到他們的網站然後你可以去爆料你可以去吹哨"},{"start":31514.787,"end":31540.956,"text":"但我去看他的網站之後我就發現他的網頁的原始碼裡面埋了一個這一個那我覺得這個部長看可能就會很熟悉了他連到一個外面的一個網站那個就值得懷疑這是個Java script所以這個 script可以做很多事情所以應該要去再檢測一下是有點值得去我會擔心啦 看到這個如果你這個講那個 script"},{"start":31542.496,"end":31555.624,"text":"對 這個部長因為一看就知道嘛他一看就知道他外連到其他的一個網站但為什麼他外連到其他的網站他其實是被埋了惡意城市那我們就特別去查說就是去導到那一個網站之後那個惡意城市到底是什麼"},{"start":31556.528,"end":31580.161,"text":"結果他竟然是可以去辨識數位足跡去鎖定你的身份比如說今天是法務部長說要來吹哨有沒有然後他根據他的數位足跡發現這個是我平常鎖定的那一個人再跳出病毒讓他去下載去入侵他的電腦然後去取得他的權限然後用病毒感染的方式去竊取這些資料而這一個手法完全符合中國apt24的手法"},{"start":31580.984,"end":31594.782,"text":"那這個對我來說是個問題嘛你等於政府立法建了一個網站然後這個指定了一個網站這個網站可以中國在上面收集資訊那你不是通過一個法然後再幫助中國來收集全台灣人民的個資嗎"},{"start":31595.882,"end":31615.452,"text":"那這個不是只有在這個個案喔比如說好今天消機會它也是民間團體但是它也是我們政府認可的團體它也會有個資電商也會有個資所以法定指定的或者擁有大量個資的電商它完全就會是一個我們個資的漏洞但是我們速發部卻沒有辦法直接去管理"},{"start":31616.343,"end":31638.604,"text":"所以這一個部分不知道部長目前來講我們針對這一個方面我有跟其實蘇巴部討論過幾次但有沒有一個更全面的方法針對這種事情我們未來到底該怎麼辦這個就想講說第一個當然我們現在有個治安法我們希望能夠趕快通過通過治安法之後當然就是說我們納管 主要納管CI跟一些我們的政府還有地方政府"},{"start":31640.093,"end":31647.939,"text":"民間的這些東西 我想下一步可能就是我們在三法先通過這一版以後我們下一個修法可能還要對民間的這個"},{"start":31672.936,"end":31675.258,"text":"好,謝謝陳柏安委員質疑,謝謝主委院長、各部會首長的備詢,謝謝"},{"start":31677.58,"end":31702,"text":"接下來我們請登記第43位張志倫委員請質詢院長各位委員各位官員大家午安是有請卓院長麻煩再請卓院長備選"},{"start":31711.537,"end":31737.807,"text":"院長好院長再過兩個月賴總統跟您就即將就職滿週年那回顧去年113年度賴政府有三高這個院長跟您報告哪三高在113年的稅收新高是高達三兆7619億超增稅收新高稅收超增5283億"},{"start":31741.069,"end":31746.137,"text":"114年度給政府的預算也是新高原本稅出編列3兆1325億三讀過的預算是2兆9249億"},{"start":31753.587,"end":31771.502,"text":"所以跟院長報告你們是過去以來歷史上三高史上最高稅收超收稅高超徵最高也是預算最高的三高政府那政府收了這麼多人民的納稅錢人民也給了政府那麼多的預算"},{"start":31772.523,"end":31796.704,"text":"我們今年可以看到萬物皆長人民幣撥了好幾層的皮我們看到最近三年電價漲了40%台鐵的票價在今年的二月漲了26.8%客運業者國道客運漲了6%今年三月底水價也提出研議要調漲的報告"},{"start":31799.045,"end":31823.316,"text":"所以我不想講可是我是不是認為賴清德政府是不是現在變成了長假總統左院長所帶領的是三高預算新高的內閣我是不是可以請教我看到這樣的資料我非常的納悶因為今年的公務員員的加薪只有3%那我可以請教一下部長為何台鐵票價漲了26%國道客運也漲了6%"},{"start":31827.472,"end":31852.487,"text":"要跟部長說明的是這些人會搭這些的通常都是上班族或者是這個學生公務人員都是一些比較需要搭乘的這些的人這樣子的上漲請問第一個造成物價整個上漲現在很多的這個菜籃族都跟我講現在拿一千塊去菜市場買東西"},{"start":31854.448,"end":31874.958,"text":"過去有都可以買了很多 收穫滿滿現在可能買了一些青菜 買了一些肉就發現一千塊都不見了我想要先請教 這個部長有上來請問漲價漲那麼多對人民如何解釋謝謝 我覺得也不只山高啦我們經濟成長率也很高"},{"start":31876.035,"end":31887.219,"text":"我們的GDP國家生產總額26兆也很高我們的股票也很高你可以繼續講沒事我認為針對問題我覺得民眾想要了解預算新高漲價也新高我認為說我認定在進步可是我必須對辛苦的蔡蘭族辛苦的很多的人民針對"},{"start":31900.163,"end":31920.333,"text":"只有漲 薪水不漲 比如說公務員只漲3%台鐵為什麼漲了這麼多 客運為什麼漲了那麼多您知道台鐵已經30年沒有漲票價了嗎我了解 可是我還是要 政府應該要來補貼這些辛苦的人我們率先前幾年就提出TPAS"},{"start":31921.26,"end":31933.647,"text":"短程的固定的這些乘客用TBUS對這些漲價對他影響是最少的而且我們TBUS又有新的2.0版對常客又有一些新的規劃其實院長我都非常認同你說的"},{"start":31936.648,"end":31954.997,"text":"可是我的建議就是說可不可以一次我認為漲超過3%的就是要還漲我不是說政府不能漲價可是你一次漲26%或是漲得比人民的加薪的幅度漲得多人民的痛苦指數就會增高就像你講的GDP成長也沒有成長20幾%"},{"start":31956.858,"end":31985.145,"text":"所以我這一說 院長我希望的是說可以苦民所苦我沒有說您準確或錯只是反映人民的心聲如果台鐵反映成本的話絕對不死漲這些幅度我們只要請部長認為它就是應該緩緩的漲可是調整到合理的票價就可以所以我認為成長百分之二十幾沒有說明原因來 部長請說明你要說明原因其實說明了很多之後可以私下向您報告那你有沒有現在直接檢查好不好"},{"start":31986.025,"end":32010.271,"text":"第一您剛剛所說的GDP只漲3%或者是薪水只漲3%但過去30年薪水漲了幾%您有算過嗎部長你要針對問題回答問你的是台鐵為什麼要漲票價你沒有回答你說過去30年沒有漲它的成本已經成長非常多而且他們的薪資也調漲了意思就是說只要過去沒有漲的你可以是漲那麼多那剛剛院長講的還漲你有聽清楚嗎"},{"start":32012.464,"end":32040.374,"text":"呃 院長院長說全市開票反映成本的話你一直漲26%就造成人民的痛苦啊那已經不是在全額反映成本了報告委員您大概很少搭台鐵啦也很少在通勤您不曉得現在只要用T-pass基本上是漲不到不管台鐵漲幾%所以您的意思是說對通勤的民眾反映你意思是說人民在台鐵票價漲20幾%人民無感覺得政府漲26%是OK的通勤的民眾不會受到影響您沒有在通勤所以您大概不曉得"},{"start":32041.755,"end":32046.617,"text":"那個我跟等一下等一下主席稍等一下這樣子質詢的方式可以嗎"},{"start":32047.461,"end":32071.475,"text":"沒問題,呼籲一下官員不要反諮詢好不好,請委員諮詢之後再回答我是為了民眾來講,你講到我個人身上這就是非常不好的示範,好不好好,那如果您不願意回答漲價的原因只要用過去的歷史漲價的原因我剛剛講很多了他的成本不斷在成長,他的服務也必須要成長在他的員工的薪水變化成長你要講的原因是說你這樣子的漲價,人民就"},{"start":32074.577,"end":32094.693,"text":"不會有感覺 然後你的意思是說台鐵就不會虧損嗎我會減少通勤民眾的衝擊 他們幾乎不會有衝擊到尤其現在有過程 台鐵它的成本不一樣就是因為台鐵過去都沒有漲所以您當這個部長來 你看到這個問題就把這二三十年來的一起漲意思就是這樣 好 沒有 你有解釋我就可以了好 那我們看下一頁"},{"start":32097.856,"end":32121.358,"text":"所以我希望讓院長知道這個我不希望我們的總統變成漲價總統那卓榮泰院長是三高的內閣那現在這張圖片是民眾跟我檢舉傳給我的他說院長很辛苦現在台灣不管國際國內都遇到嚴重的這個一些影響他不希望說我們的院長在週末的時候是參加"},{"start":32122.6,"end":32135.876,"text":"類似政治尤其是有相關罷免的宣講活動企圖要罷免在野黨的立委所以我拿到這張照片請院長你是不是覺得這張照片不是很適當"},{"start":32137.495,"end":32165.237,"text":"這張照片加油很適當啊我的意思是說全民罷免這個舊章話這個章者這樣的照片適當嗎來聽的民眾他身上有什麼樣的標誌衣服他表達什麼意願我們尊重所有來參加活動的所以你的意思是說這個公務員員沒有這個遵守行政中立的這樣的做法我們絕對遵守行政中立那你請問你在場知不知道這是有關於相關罷免的活動我不是"},{"start":32166.308,"end":32194.06,"text":"我們是做政策的宣導好 那我會跟那個人民反映說你是做政策的宣導委員長在新北的那一場 歡迎委員來現場聽到現場聽有沒有罷免的活動其實沒有我們有沒有談到等一下 院長我們都尊重人民尋死任何的權利可是我認為行政官員不應該參與這樣的活動可是委員你來現場應該要了解說這是怎麼樣的活動比如說你前一場活動就知道了你下一場活動如果還去的話"},{"start":32195.06,"end":32220.688,"text":"我認為第一場活動你不知道那我們還可以這樣你的幕僚這麼多下一場如果還是這樣的活動我認為民主社會國家不應該行政首長來去參加這個去罷免在野黨立委意圖就是我們努力想要監督政府的活動我認為如果有這樣的活動的話沒有我這是人民檢舉提供的照片請院長深思第一場跟第二場聽的人都很清楚我在講總預算的問題"},{"start":32222.068,"end":32245.313,"text":"我就說因為我在這裡講委員有些聽不懂到那邊講民群眾人民都聽得懂好可是我要跟院長報告的是這樣的照片就是人民提供給我的他認為這樣是很不適當的請院長三思好下一頁委員可以來現場拿一張反罷免的那也許也可以被拍成照片我們不要造成社會的衝突跟對立啊好不好我們在這裡做政策的宣導我們接受任何公開的好那接下來我們必須要講"},{"start":32247.189,"end":32263.815,"text":"這個其實最近大家也討論很多尤其現在剛剛講的很多台鐵票價漲國道客運漲這些東西其實很重要的一個點是電力的問題那我們一直在跟其實我們一直在跟院長跟我們經濟部的郭部長也上來了"},{"start":32264.975,"end":32269.1,"text":"在講說其實台電113年的稅前虧損高達411億元已經營運連三年虧損那今年114年台電孔繼續虧損那我們必須要講的是台113年的決算已經顯示了"},{"start":32282.836,"end":32305.148,"text":"每度電的燃料成本已經大減20%為什麼台電還是繼續虧損呢根據清大的一個教授葉教授葉忠光的分析其實這我之前也跟院長報告過了其實問題就出在台電外購電力的價格遠高於台電自發電力的價格我們可以看到這一張在112年的時候"},{"start":32309.107,"end":32319.436,"text":"台電的發電燃煤的發電成本是3.4他基本上來講他都會加價跟我們的民營業者去買電他在112點的時候是加20%就是意思就是說他多給了民營電廠20%的獲利"},{"start":32326.642,"end":32347.502,"text":"結果想不到113年的時候大家可以看到我們台電的自發電力只剩2.5代表就是因為國際燃油價格下降讓我們的台電的燃煤的發電成本比較少可是沒有想到台電居然跟我們的民營電廠買燃煤的時候加價變成34%"},{"start":32350.137,"end":32359.618,"text":"這意思是什麼呢當時我就請教很多台電的好朋友問他說是不是這個我們所有台電的這個外購的自營廠商他沒有去"},{"start":32361.138,"end":32383.04,"text":"依照國際能源下降的部分去給台電相關應的節省這樣的成本所以顧名思義我要跟部長跟院長講的是難道台電就要用這樣的高價跟民營電廠買電嗎是不是可以請請報告委員我想這個應該你要去看他們當初所訂下來的這個合約內容"},{"start":32385.362,"end":32414.082,"text":"合約內容怎麼樣規範我想我們的國營機構他必須要按照訂約的內容去執行所以不一定是向委員所指證的是故意去加價去跟他買這合約上面所寫的我們必須要遵法所以我們會依照合約的內容去進行當然也許有委員所看到的這個現象不過這個我們回去以後會充分的檢討"},{"start":32415.403,"end":32443.243,"text":"所以謝謝部長上次已經跟你報告過了我們希望說台電基本上盡量用自發的電力我們委託民營電廠的時候應該給他合理的利潤而不是讓這個民營電廠可以賺那麼多的錢那第二個我們來看看我剛也跟大家報告在113年的時候因為國際能源下降所以所有的這個台電的自力發電它的價格都比112年度的來低"},{"start":32444.056,"end":32470.943,"text":"可是我們看到風力發電跟太陽能光電尤其是風力發電我們自發電力是4.4可是我們113年外購是6.59的成本我們這個加價了將近50%跟民營電廠來去收電費所以說就是我要跟這個部長講的是說可以讓民營電廠賺那麼多錢嗎那我們後續可以得知的是"},{"start":32472.165,"end":32496.899,"text":"我們了解這個台電的這個短購物價短購電費的這個整個的公式過去以來就是因為這些風力發電的民營業者他針對台電所提出的這些的電力的政策他不能接受所以就從103年以後就用了一個前10年跟後10年不同的電費收費的方式所以才早知台電去買一度的綠電"},{"start":32497.839,"end":32509.686,"text":"有時候6塊錢甚至7塊錢這樣的狀況可是這個問題到108年以後因為台電的這個電力的政策改變了以後沒有人要跟台電做生意以及"},{"start":32510.663,"end":32538.365,"text":"未來本席所擔心的是台電未來只能購買到昂貴的綠電等到這些綠電業者當他過去天的前十年跟後十年他要到後十年要賣便宜的電的時候比如說一對電3.5、4塊的時候他那時候會跟台電毀了就像剛剛郭部長講的他不會依照合約規定來走所以台電過去來講只能買到高額的綠電請問這個郭部長"},{"start":32541.311,"end":32570.456,"text":"最近的這個牽引的廠商是104年即將在114年10年就要到期了請問他會不會繼續跟賣電給台電綠電業者會繼續賣電給台電嗎我們基本上要去看他們當初所訂的合約到底是怎麼樣我想我們政府一定就是要依法來這個進行他的這個這個合約的內容那所以如果這個委員您認為他是不合理的"},{"start":32571.482,"end":32598.549,"text":"我們來考慮我們來還是要在法的框架下來尋求解決的辦法當然我現在在督導這個台電的時候我都跟他們講他要從各種的方式去考慮他的這個成本的競爭力如果我今天買的這個電價格比較高的話那我可以從其他的一樣的這個再生能源我可以從其他地方去買我不一定要跟他買"},{"start":32599.289,"end":32612.076,"text":"它如果太貴我就不可能因為這個影響到我整個的台北的經濟對 現在的意思是過去十年這些綠能業者就像之前跟您報告的這些綠能業者都賺飽飽一度店都賣到賣給台電六七塊"},{"start":32614.597,"end":32634.506,"text":"只有現在10年到他們之前賣貴的電的時候已經結束了他們要賣便宜的電去做balance的時候這些綠電業者通基本上都會跟台電選擇解約把這些電賣給外面的比如說大型的上市會公司來去賺取更多的電的這些收入那台電不是就變成"},{"start":32637.697,"end":32655.562,"text":"這個這個冤大頭了嗎而且現在就我所知啦現在你們還在計算這個台電所稱的叫做分手費在計算的時候還沒有一個正確的公式來去來去做未來的這個檢討報告委員這個部分的話就表示它是違約的如果我們訂的約是20年"},{"start":32657.222,"end":32676.224,"text":"那麼前面高後面低但是他後面不執行的話我想這個一定有可能要請教一下那這樣可能在法案之下他可以違約不可能所以原來是說這些違約業者無法違約嗎他有可能違約但是我們一定會處分他"},{"start":32677.79,"end":32699.66,"text":"他一定會處分他可是處分他是以利益為導向如果你處分他不夠重所以在這邊我也拜託部長是不是可以給他這個懲罰效的委員會主他的店是要透過我們台電的電網才有辦法賣給他想要賣的客人所以我就是不讓他執行的話他也沒辦法"},{"start":32700.14,"end":32722.799,"text":"好那我希望部長因為現在整個台電跟民營業者這些綠電公司過去賺那麼多錢現在其實還沒有討論出了一個如何未來解約的一個公式跟計算方式那我也希望說部長可以拿出Guts就像你講的應該用懲罰性的方式讓他們繼續跟台電合作來去賣便宜的綠電給台電讓台電不要虧損"},{"start":32724.761,"end":32731.798,"text":"不然的話我們前十年已經供養他們那麼久了後十年連現在沒有辦法拿出Gas的話我認為台電只會繼續虧損了"},{"start":32734.941,"end":32757.987,"text":"所以在這邊我要跟院長跟部長講的我認為立法院他在114年的時候刪減掉給台電的補助一千億不是沒有道理我們是希望說不是不補貼台電這一千億是我們希望說過去台灣人民已經拿了三千億的納稅錢補助了台電原因是很單純就是因為能源"},{"start":32759.467,"end":32787.412,"text":"在戰爭的能源價格上漲那如果你現在在補貼台電你沒有一個正確能源政策難道不是把人民的納稅險這一千億拿去補貼綠電業者以及民間業者嗎報告委員是這個樣子就是說我們當初為了要補助我們這個國內的國人用電所以我們一共花了六千億但是這個大院給我們只有三千億"},{"start":32788.874,"end":32794.943,"text":"所以我們實際上還是有3000億所以我們在討論的時候我們在經濟委員會專業的經濟委員會裡面討論過的時候這1000億他只刪了30億但是我們來到大院以後整個被拿掉"},{"start":32804.4,"end":32831.214,"text":"如果你們有提出更好譬如說可以解決我們立法院一些委員的問題的時候就像我講的我們不是不願意補助台電是因為不願意補助台電就像我講的用高價給民營業者或是高價買綠電而且未來只要台電這些綠電業者跟台電解約台電目前沒有辦法拿出一個對台電有利的解約方式報告委員我們的補助只是減少我們財務上面的負擔"},{"start":32832.435,"end":32861.773,"text":"只是減少我們財務的負擔並不是來補助我們台電在運作上面的虧損我們講過了我們會再努力從我們現在的運作的方式包括我們的商業模式包括我們的這個創電的方式包括我們所有的行政包括我們的運籌模式從各方面來精進所以我們會努力但是我們在請大佑的同意因為我們的一千億是在"},{"start":32862.433,"end":32890.803,"text":"消除我們過去補助同國人的這個財務的這個方面因為我們還是要去借錢我們要借錢來彌補所以那個利息的部分我們大概增加了好幾十億的這個利息所以如果大院給我們補助讓我們財務能夠更健全政府已經補貼台電利息也蠻多的好不好我們就接下來講那接下來希望說部長也還是要提出具體的政策跟立法院來報告那我們下一位"},{"start":32892.742,"end":32920.358,"text":"好 接下來我們要請教院長的部分這是我一直很重視的一個問題我們台灣發展那麼多的綠電 綠能有關於這個太陽能板以及這個風力發電的這個大型的風液板其實現在在大家在台灣的認定說這些東西未來是台灣積極要做的事其實我們有認同可是我要跟院長報告的是過去從108年到113年過去六年來我們有五家的回收處理那個"},{"start":32921.078,"end":32939.1,"text":"太陽能板的業者處理了將近一千噸公噸的太陽能板在未來的即將的七年即將會有一萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板再加七年十四年總共有十萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板"},{"start":32939.58,"end":32953.656,"text":"可是現在讓人民沒辦法接受的是在我們的理解就是太陽能板應該是要可以回收的可是現在這五家處理業者他們不是做回收他們是做處理將近或者是報廢的這樣的舉動所以而且尤其是"},{"start":32954.577,"end":32979.033,"text":"太陽能板過去有跟院長報告它過去就是因為這個玻璃跟這個EPA的這個膜它黏的很緊沒有辦法分離所以我知道說現在環境部也積極在努力來做整個的太陽能板的一個處理可是到現在目前來講是沒有辦法處理的也沒有辦法回收的只能做報廢的這樣的動作是不是請院長或者是我們部長或"},{"start":32980.194,"end":33006.989,"text":"可以來解釋一下 這樣子未來這麼多的廢棄物過去喔 尤其是過去除了這一千噸政府有補助的只有一百多噸沒有補助的 給這些回收業者的不曉得丟到哪裡去我收到消息啊 就是給一些民間業者拿去跟其他的玻璃業 全部混在一起拿去丟這樣子不會造成台灣未來的這個整個的環保的而且垃圾的危機嗎"},{"start":33008.49,"end":33026.315,"text":"報告委員我想我們update一下現在科技的狀況太陽能回收的話我們早就已經有看到這樣的一個問題所以工業技術研究院已經完全開發出來可以計轉處理太陽能廢棄物的技術"},{"start":33031.052,"end":33051.512,"text":"好,謝謝部長,部長為了了解這個中研院有去做這樣的事情,他也有不管是計轉或是做一些這個授權給相關的民間業者,可是就我了解,其實你會後是不是可以提供給我,現在是不是有在生產相關的產品,就我得知是完全沒有。"},{"start":33052.273,"end":33062.681,"text":"而且現在整個政府單位其實也沒有辦法掌握有生產多少的狀況所以現在是沒有辦法生產的狀況所以就算中原也有在做如果沒有辦法生產"},{"start":33064.195,"end":33089.564,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是我們國內的太陽能板是從2000年開始用到2010年是因為當時推動百萬陽光屋頂所以那時候開始多了很多我們是2018年19年才訂定等於是太陽能板必須要付那個費用清除處理的費用所以現在我們現在處理的是以前很舊的那目前來看的話的確因為那時候成本不符所以大概只能做這樣的用途"},{"start":33089.924,"end":33112.739,"text":"但是因為現在有五家 未來還有幾家正在審核當中我們希望他們可以全循環的再利用因為那個裡面不是廢棄物是一個很好的資產 還可以再循環的所以目前現在還不是最高量的時候所以委員不用擔心預計是2039年是最高量的時候一年大概會有10萬噸的產出那我們預計現在的量可以到13萬噸所以委員這個問題不是很大"},{"start":33114.38,"end":33141.898,"text":"好謝謝彭部長那我們看下一張圖就這張圖這張圖是這個民間的業者給我的這張圖他說原本希望說現在環境部其實有在努力你們也知道也補貼這些的回收業者一頓是兩萬三千塊可是想不到在我了解有很多民間業者跟我反映說這些回收業者拿到了補助我們看上一頁回收業者在上一頁"},{"start":33144.411,"end":33158.3,"text":"太陽能這個光電廠設置了光電板了以後等它到了這個年限了以後會有請這個清除業者去清除然後環境部會收到這些繳費的太陽能光電業者的繳費資金以後來去做補貼清除業者"},{"start":33161.602,"end":33183.414,"text":"那補貼完了以後會到處理機構就是我剛剛講這五家處理機構這五家處理機構一頓現在都拿這個政府兩萬三的這個補貼費然後政府有去積合可是沒有想到這個環境部的積合我不知道是環境部被騙了還是怎麼樣他的積合只是做一般就是做一個制式化的積合所以我們來看一下下兩頁拜託"},{"start":33186.055,"end":33202.689,"text":"左邊這一頁是現代太陽能廢棄板只有環境部給我的資料從處理前原本在一個光電板可以處理完以後分成兩種的玻璃一種是處理後玻璃碎質較多的或者是處理很乾淨的可是當這些回收頁子我剛剛講的現在的狀況"},{"start":33205.231,"end":33216.781,"text":"就像我們所擔心的這些回收業者在處理完了以後他其實是交由一些民間業者比如說一些剝離廠叫他說因為量少拿去幫我順便回收丟掉"},{"start":33217.93,"end":33239.612,"text":"那這些是一些沒有拿到補助的業者有拿到補助的業者他拿到的資料跟給環境部的完全不一樣他跟環境部說做的事很好可以清理得很乾淨可是他當他打給下游的業者的時候他是拿給他的事這些下游業者這些要做真的去回收再利用的業者沒辦法接受的資料所以這就是我要跟"},{"start":33241.089,"end":33252.599,"text":"部長講的真實的情況是太陽能板的災血破碎料根本就沒有環境部所拿到的資料這麼樣的漂亮這些是在利用的業者"},{"start":33255.529,"end":33279.274,"text":"私下給我的照片他說要拿現場的食物給我看所以拜託部長跟院長這個東西如果不提早來做的話會是台灣的能源跟生態的耗節這些東西都混在一般的玻璃業者因為量少塞進去拿去丟掉一起拿去丟掉好不好所以好謝謝委員提供資料我們一定派人去查然後如果是違法的話我們一定會嚴懲"},{"start":33280.194,"end":33308.973,"text":"所以拜託一下我希望部長下次查討的時候也通知我我們一起去看一看謝謝好下頁第二個另外一個也是我們覺得綠人政策的問題我們的大型的風機葉片你們知道台電光是台電我們的太陽能板跟風機葉片光是台電它有辦法處理嗎多少的閒置的在我們的台電裡面"},{"start":33310.214,"end":33333.806,"text":"報告委員,據我的了解,因為這個大概現在只有幾十噸而已那目前來說的話,因為過去發生這個議題的時候環保局有去查,然後也有稽查那現在台電已經承諾放到他們的機房去了,不是裸露在外所以這個看到的景象已經不出現了那台電自己也承諾,因為這個東西一定要去做特別的處理的那這個都是早期"},{"start":33334.546,"end":33352.542,"text":"很早很早的大概都是多少k瓦的很小的所以未來我們預計大量是2040年那目前我們的量也都開始起來當然現在的處理技術還不好但是我所知道的其實風機的這個葉片是可以再回收再利用再循環的這個都是我們期待可以做的"},{"start":33352.962,"end":33382.331,"text":"好 謝謝院長所以我認為台灣要發展綠能政策我們都支持只是剛剛跟院長報告不要補助這些綠燃者可以補助可是加這麼多錢補助而且尤其是我們現在的這個太陽能板我們的大型的風月完全沒有辦法處理的狀況台灣還一直努力而且做那麼大的計畫來去做這樣子的東西其實對台灣的整個未來的環境有非常嚴重的影響是的 政府有補助的政策"},{"start":33382.799,"end":33398.519,"text":"接受政府的補貼就要遵照政府的規定否則我們一定嚴查嚴辦好 謝謝好 下一頁好 接下來我要請教有關於這個台積電的問題那台積電我相信很多委員有請教過這個院長跟部長"},{"start":33399.839,"end":33421.708,"text":"3月4號美國總統川普跟台積電董事魏董事長共同宣布台積電在美國設廠投資金額高達1000億美金因為時間的關係我簡單問一下院長跟部長川普在3月9號的時候說加碼投資到2000億美金請問是真的嗎他應該是把之前的650億加上1000億加起來1650億"},{"start":33426.567,"end":33440.715,"text":"所以你的意思是說他不是說他不是說這一千億要加碼到兩千億是過去的一千億加上之前已經提供已經投資六百五十億那差的三百五十億是他的加淨位法"},{"start":33442.358,"end":33465.186,"text":"我們沒有辦法去評論一個外國的領袖他們所說的內容到底是什麼但是我想這個外界的報導或者各方面在講說一千億或者兩千億一千億這個是事實嘛那之前的投資是六百五十億加上一千億那也許他我們沒有"},{"start":33466.26,"end":33469.722,"text":"沒有必要去評論兩千億這件事情我跟委員報告台積電要投資到美積電這個錢要出去一定要經過經濟部的投審會許可這裡面投審會一定會把關"},{"start":33491.115,"end":33518.376,"text":"一定會把關謝謝院長跟部長實現關係最後我還是要幫我們國人因為外資三大法人已經15年外操了那我們都很擔心台積電這樣子有點被美國半恐嚇式的投資美國投資台積電投資美國這樣的事情對於台灣整體的未來的就業我們產業的外流等等這些東西我們還希望說部長跟院長可以提供一個報告給我們所有的委員讓我們可以來放心也讓國人來放心好嗎"},{"start":33519.056,"end":33539.006,"text":"政府跟所有的產業都會保持最好好 謝謝張志倫委員的諮詢也謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢 謝謝接下來最後一位登記發言第44位陳雪生委員請諮詢"},{"start":33548.404,"end":33555.167,"text":"謝謝主席是不是秦院長?周院長?謝謝麻煩再請周院長備選院長辛苦了站了一天了,馬上下課了今天本席質詢四個感謝一個抱怨我想感謝先來好了感謝國防部"},{"start":33578.803,"end":33600.534,"text":"國防部從善如流這個接受本席的建議對馬祖地區的東營指揮部還有舉光指揮部那麼在113年6月27號核定修正國軍地域加級也就是由原來的第三級那麼調整為第二級東營跟舉光"},{"start":33606.516,"end":33626.424,"text":"我們韓院長也在舉光當過副院長沒水沒電非常的辛苦那麼顧部長這邊從善如流謝謝您把他調整那現在問題來了亮島跟高登亮島院長沒去過我不曉得顧部長去過沒有我去過一個亮島有沒有去過"},{"start":33635.191,"end":33662.908,"text":"亮島跟高登,高登在北竿旁邊距離大陸是最近的一個地區高登大概也只有幾十個人亮島也只有幾十個官兵大概兩個島不足一百個那麼在亮島尤其辛苦我當縣長的時候每次陪同我們地區的指揮官去做軍務視察的時候他去視察我去慰問"},{"start":33663.769,"end":33692.631,"text":"我一定到肉舖砍兩個豬腳豬腿豬腿送到那邊去他們沒有他們都是吃罐頭沒有肉吃魚的話也要靠運補上去釀島那邊大概一兩個禮拜才運補一次那裡沒有因為土質都是鹽盤沒有土質所以他們都是用那個寶特瓶空心菜放在裡面種植一層一層的"},{"start":33693.8,"end":33722.205,"text":"他們吃的青菜是這樣因為普及的問題所以我在這邊建議是不是能夠把高登亮島由二級改為一級那麼三級改為二級大概是差距是兩千兩百一十塊兩千兩百一十塊那麼亮島跟高登只有幾十個人幾十個人是不是可以把它調整從二級調整到一級這裡面差八千塊目前"},{"start":33722.898,"end":33745.546,"text":"亮島跟高登的這個冰原人家都不願意去了如果您的小孩在那邊當兵的話你會體諒到沒水沒電沒有水也沒有電非常的辛苦幾十個人過去在戰時的時候我一級48年823砲戰十週年老共要做報復"},{"start":33750.219,"end":33771.662,"text":"我們在民國58年的時候我們全島16歲以上的婦女年輕人不可以離境而且槍彈全部都到位所以非常非常的辛苦我們面對對面一整塊的山群非常的恐懼"},{"start":33772.694,"end":33791.568,"text":"我們平常都要躲炮彈,每天晚上都要躲這個炮彈所以那時候內心的恐懼,所以我們一直怕戰爭的爆發所以現在兵兇戰為,我想左院長這邊也跟賴總統報告我們不要戰爭,我們希望和平"},{"start":33793.495,"end":33817.129,"text":"剛剛聽委員談到您對外島的國軍官兵送了一些食物過去我覺得我們應該為國軍弟兄向委員表示致謝我們就是要防衛我們自己,我們走向和平之道才會表示說我們應該加強自己的防衛能力我也希望院長有機會去激勵我們官兵的士氣好不好"},{"start":33825.93,"end":33836.525,"text":"現在一級只有南沙,我們評估的結果認為高登跟亮島跟南沙地區的交通狀況還是有明顯的差異"},{"start":33837.136,"end":33864.773,"text":"只是交通差異,問題是阿兵哥到那邊去,不能回來啊高層跟亮島之間的交通的狀況跟南沙比起來,南沙還是艱困許多他們那邊已經比南沙少很多南沙還可以發電種菜,在亮島是沒有的請部長回去查一下好不好我想只有幾十個吧,只有幾十位的官兵啊這個是不是請部長回去"},{"start":33865.393,"end":33894.829,"text":"演繹好不好,我並沒有說一定要怎麼樣啦我是拜託部長第二件事情就是感謝,第二個感謝就是北竿長崎拔長它原來是350公尺長那麼希望它現在已經變更為75公尺那麼原來馬防部啊,馬總防衛部咧演繹啊演繹說要5億,第一個方案要5億第二個方案要9億其實不需要嘛"},{"start":33895.222,"end":33924.449,"text":"在北甘島上面不過五百多個兵員你不用回答我多少啦我大概心裡有數五百個兵員長訓的時間不多啊不需要那麼大的一個靶場其實一兩年之內啊他們現在是答應我們說五年之內完成簽件因為他這個在淡黃的地區啊而且聘您了國中國小縣立醫院安養中心我們運動場所以部長這一方面拜託您"},{"start":33926.173,"end":33942.374,"text":"兩千萬足夠了現在用步槍的機會很少我想在馬祖我在那邊住了幾十年應該用飛彈的機會比較大一點用不到步槍但是步槍必須我們是一個常備的項目"},{"start":33943.444,"end":33964.978,"text":"所以部長這一方面希望國防部回去五年之內簽件這個允諾你要實現而且拜託不要那麼大的靶場靶場就是打個靶嘛是不是75公尺而已我也會打我們也常常我們在那邊常常接受民防隊訓練每年也是一年打好幾次啊部長你說好嗎"},{"start":33966.554,"end":33991.759,"text":"跟委員報告,我想這件事情因為委員長期關心我們現在一方面是調整這個涉及的週期我想這點你也知道每週五天就是只有禮拜一到禮拜五那時段就是八點半到七點半,兩點半到四點半本來今年的元旦,元月一號我要躺在靶場上給靶兵打院長說我要保重身體謝謝委員的體諒另外我們現在也做隔音牆"},{"start":33996.468,"end":34021.038,"text":"已經合撥了這個需求的預算金額所以我們會開標以後我們管制在90個工作天點內把它竣工以後就有效可以來防止噪音好,那繼續我第三個感謝馬祖飛高雄的航線部長你知道馬祖有多少個南部的官兵嗎?有900多位"},{"start":34022.591,"end":34050.303,"text":"900多位他們回家的路非常辛苦不是坐船就是坐飛機到松山機場還要坐高鐵才能夠到達高雄現在我們已經把這航線已經打開了當然我要感謝中油油罐車幫我們也弄了加油的部分交通部還有華航還有華信還有民航局大家都用了很大的心去做院長你有沒有聽說過"},{"start":34051.786,"end":34079.25,"text":"哪一家航空公司,我們花蓮也好,台中也好,台中也好,高雄也好,要縣政府補貼的,你們聽過?沒有縣政府補貼?交通部是有補貼的?我們縣政府要補貼,因為他人數不夠的話我們要補貼所以報告院長這一點拜託,還有部長來了我們固定航班時間以後,拜託不要縣政府補貼好不好?馬祖已經沒什麼錢了"},{"start":34080.444,"end":34102.225,"text":"即使這一次你看看這個財化法通過我一句話都沒講其實我們一般的補助款計畫型的補助款如果中央把我們扣下來我們幾億還不夠用還不夠分配是不是可能我們還倒貼所以對我們來講也不是好事所以我幾乎都沒有聲音我也沒表示意見院長部長在這邊"},{"start":34104.11,"end":34129.538,"text":"拜託一下不只是我們發展觀光的需求這裡面也是對我們阿兵哥官兵一個生活上的照顧兩位部長也都在能不能協力來完成那麼這個錢不要縣政府出請你們盡量去努力好不好一個月兩個月我們出得起太久的話長年下去的話縣政府你曉得我們財政分級是列第五第五級第六級"},{"start":34131.238,"end":34142.844,"text":"產生狀況非常的刺激非常的不好拜託院長可以嗎報告委員其實其他的航線也都有補貼你也都很清楚因為你也常時在關心這個議題"},{"start":34144.025,"end":34173.36,"text":"那高雄的這個部分我們還是要看他的整體的運量就是說現在華夏航空其實很擔心就是承載量不足他會虧很多所以他會希望有補貼但補貼的金額其實如果是承載量很少的話那個補貼金額還真的是會蠻大的部長其實啊台灣到馬祖這個航線我們國家本來就是有責任有這個義務行的電力嘛行的安全嘛對不對本來就有這個責任啊"},{"start":34174.281,"end":34201.251,"text":"你為什麼說高雄飛金門都可以飛,飛馬祖不能飛啦沒有道理嘛,飛澎湖也飛啦而且都大的飛機在飛我們現在小小的一個要求,小小的要求嘛所以拜託部長回去研究一下,看看有什麼經費什麼樣的法令,如果法令有問題我們可以修改嘛可以修正嘛,好不好讓縣政府能夠喘口氣還有就是這個票價前幾天已經開過會了"},{"start":34203.477,"end":34231.506,"text":"要報到交通部去核定這一點拜託部長回去看他公文馬上把它批了為什麼因為他票價公布以後華信還要排班排班裡面還請部長幫忙一下我據我了解華信很像要排禮拜二但禮拜二的航班因為要配合官兵休假我們除了發展官方這裡面主要還是阿兵哥阿兵哥回家日路更近所以希望在禮拜五"},{"start":34232.356,"end":34243.227,"text":"禮拜五的話他們禮拜六跟禮拜天他有多了兩天因為要精打細算他才有這樣的一個需求請部長能不能夠幫忙一下"},{"start":34243.912,"end":34267.522,"text":"報告委員這件事您也協調了好多次我們會盡量朝向委員的期望不過華信航空它整體的飛機的量能這個我們也需要考慮到因為也有其他的離島有這樣子的需求華信的董事長原來是華航的總經理他現在已經身處了是華航的董事長那麼他已經辭掉華信董事長的職務了"},{"start":34269.042,"end":34285.897,"text":"那麼現在華信董事長派了沒有我還不知道,派誰我也不知道我最好能夠派陳雪生的話那我最高興了這個問題不要你解決我就可以處理了但是現在董事長換了我真搞不清楚有沒有人跟華信新的董事長給他切磋一下好不好"},{"start":34287.025,"end":34308.633,"text":"你不要再笑啊不是,立委不能兼董事長我兼董事長?立委不能兼我不能兼,我辭掉啊你一定是一個稱職的立委不行啦,聽說罷免又要成功了,要罷免我欸,院長我24小時,數月匪懈為民服務,我助理請了20幾個"},{"start":34310.66,"end":34338.692,"text":"你不要看我們台中、桃園、台北,到處都是我們的鄉親我24小時為他們做便民的服務,徵取經費也是第一名的所以拜託你不要去談罷免的事情我沒有談罷免的事情拜託一下,因為說真的我對馬祖的鄉親非常熱愛我也熱愛這塊土地,剩下三年讓我做完好不好?這一點跟你懇切的拜託好不好?"},{"start":34340.798,"end":34364.611,"text":"這個很少人在那邊談這個事情我是第一個第三個就是有關,顧部長請回部長你請回這是衛福部的事情第四個感謝衛福部長上任以後當然他原來當立法委員在我的隔壁我跟他什麼事情,我們兩個如兄如弟"},{"start":34365.984,"end":34387.35,"text":"我跟他報告什麼事呢電腦斷層我們馬阿祖的緊急醫療後送大概一年有160位那後送過來以後有什麼問題呢電腦斷層醫生看不清楚上傳以後磨磨糊糊重新再造一次所以我們我要求他拜託他給我一個800"},{"start":34388.806,"end":34415.321,"text":"八百劑量的斷層後來他說我們部立院全部都是一百多切的不能單獨給你麻煩那我也OK不過他也核定了部長謝謝您雖然你沒有做到八百你當立委的時候答應我八百切但你做部長換了位子以後腦袋又換了不過我也不怪你因為全部大家一視同仁要公平那現在也很多民眾提出來說"},{"start":34416.973,"end":34439.958,"text":"縣立醫院能不能改部立醫院部立醫院的話要有部立醫院的規模、土地、醫生還有儀器、醫療設備等等我看需要幾十億啦當然以馬祖的規格目前金門厚重大概是兩百四十一個我們一年厚重,我們大概最近這三年啦最近這三年金門是兩百四十一個,我們是一百六十"},{"start":34441.67,"end":34455.91,"text":"所以說那邊基本上的一些配備像電腦斷層你給我了嘛這個問題民眾的問題解決了你不然那邊照一次這邊再照一次因為看不清楚嘛所以非常感謝我們衛福部長希望"},{"start":34456.857,"end":34483.775,"text":"有關部立醫院如果你不成立部立醫院的話起碼一些基本的配備需求神經內科神經外科還有我們腦袋現在心梗心臟心臟的問題也蠻多的後送過來心梗所以請部長能不能對這一方面再加強再注重一下,可不可以報告委員我幾件事情"},{"start":34484.665,"end":34507.191,"text":"我回答一下第一個就是說有關電腦斷層其實同步那個時期澎湖醫院也是設立了128間的電腦斷層其實它是再加上現在的AI的一個處理可以把影片處理到非常的清楚所以請委員放心以後我們那邊的醫師朋友所照的"},{"start":34508.559,"end":34529.617,"text":"回到台灣絕對不需要再重複照如果重複照我再找你嘛好不好而且這可以電腦的傳遞資訊所以這個部分沒有問題至於說在強調連江縣馬祖這個部分尤其在連江縣我們從幾個角度第一個人才的培育醫療器材的一個加強"},{"start":34531.906,"end":34556.4,"text":"還有整體的醫療費用的提升,其實都是給予馬祖、給予連江縣最大的努力我想這個部分在幾戶方面也是給予家承家的30%不是啦,我們兩個人不談政治,我們是兄弟就跟周越南一樣,我們也是好朋友,也是跟兄弟如兄如弟一樣"},{"start":34557.381,"end":34583.935,"text":"我也敬佩對這個連江縣的縣民長期的關心我們一定不管我在過去或者是在現在因為那邊太多醫師的朋友了我們一樣希望他們有一個好的醫療環境來把我們的縣民照顧好謝謝部長好不好你請回謝謝院長那現在我要談到我的抱怨我要談到馬祖大俏"},{"start":34587.472,"end":34616.296,"text":"我還有應該算算不到三年的時間任期就要屆滿了我的年齡也應該差不多了這個馬祖大橋我每天都在關心這個事情從107年我們賴總統時任院長的時候我到行政院找他他馬上就把它批了中和規劃中和規劃他就批了批了以後交通部速度也很快"},{"start":34616.943,"end":34633.776,"text":"折騰公路總局馬上做計畫110年其中報告就出來了送到行政院110年送到行政院以後不停的行政院秘書處還有國發會交通部這個公文一直轉來轉去那個效率實在我非常驚人"},{"start":34644.249,"end":34657.859,"text":"抓了112年,一整年喔我不知道躺在誰的桌子上,我看不到也追蹤不到好112年不見了111年後來報到113年到國發會國發會說送到英商奧亞納工程顧問公司"},{"start":34673.697,"end":34702.773,"text":"做第三方的認證認證什麼呢認證技術有沒有問題認證技術有沒有問題那已經也回來了啊技術也沒問題啊我想賴總統時任院長的時候對我們馬祖大家有承諾他的攸關馬祖未來百年發展大街的橋是馬祖人應得的大橋案在自己的手中推動一定全力促成這是他第一次的承諾"},{"start":34703.717,"end":34716.864,"text":"然後賴總統也到縣地去會勘這個南北岸大橋大概3.1公里長他預計要8年完工賴總統也表示經費不是問題當然現在這個經費一直到288億我有一件事情我要拜託院長這個公文輾轉來輾轉去"},{"start":34733.919,"end":34762.621,"text":"那前幾天在院會的時候我也跟卓院長報告卓院長說一直沒看到這個案子我就非常震驚啊這麼重要的事情我在立法院每一年每一次都在總諮詢的時候向院長提出來爭取這個南北竿跨海大橋也就是馬祖大橋但是院長說不知道沒看到公文"},{"start":34763.493,"end":34790.698,"text":"我非常的驚訝我是說這個公文跑哪裡去了這麼重要的事情賴總統親口答應的事情而且院長我也口頭跟你報告好幾次但你就看不到這公文所以這公文一直在國發會交通部一直在秘書長行政院秘書處那邊一直在打轉我想我不曉得什麼時候才能看到院長讓您看到"},{"start":34791.55,"end":34812.607,"text":"我要親自拿去給你看嗎跟委員報告這個工程當然是複雜而且挑戰性很大經過國內國外的工程顧問做了很多的評估目前委員剛剛所說經費達到288億其實上他已經再度修正已經提高到392億金門機場評估的時候我們馬祖機場"},{"start":34819.989,"end":34836.187,"text":"剛剛評估的時候說要幾百億後來十幾億 十幾二十億我們馬祖南崗機場做起來啦所以你不要聽那個啦你要不想幫我做的話你說這個大橋啊 評估要兩千億因為他有南崗機場存廢的問題北崗機場要"},{"start":34840.034,"end":34859.125,"text":"修整建的問題,還有大橋的問題,整個合起來談我們還聽到有不同的聲音,主要是現在修正到392億所以我們必須要重新再修正392億誰修正的?是世西嗎?我不曉得是誰修正的?國發會有這樣的專家嗎?他沒有經過一個細部的設計,沒有經過建設計畫的啟動"},{"start":34866.001,"end":34887.627,"text":"他怎麼知道是那麼多億咧?所以我們現在看到的是這樣一個初步的一個概算所以我希望他重新院內還在重新再也不是用含的,也不是用吹的一定要詳細精算部長,您知道是300多億嗎?你聽過嗎?這個部分我們要回去再了解一下"},{"start":34888.192,"end":34911.299,"text":"不是現在了解,這是你公路總局在精算的公路總局委託4C設計公司在弄的4C是我們國內頂尖的這段時間確實整個工程的經費一直在漲委員長期一直關心這個做大橋所以我要跟你報告的是現在最新的發展跟進度不是我是說院長你聽誰講的,誰跟你報告的"},{"start":34913.72,"end":34931.694,"text":"哪一個單位跟你報告呢?你回答我好不好,哪一個單位跟你報告呢?這個是在院內的公文我們綜合起來算,它一個概算之後要有人算嘛,總是要有人算啦1加1等於2,總要有人算出來嘛不是我,我們還在內部要求重新核定這個數字為什麼會從288億,會漲到390億我想這是馬祖仁未來的夢他這個跟機場一定要結合"},{"start":34943.4,"end":34972.382,"text":"欄杆機場要把它停掉欄杆機場的跑道頭端太危險了我每次坐飛機回去我家裡面試試過我每次飛機降落我都怕尤其飛機重飛的時候多恐怖你知道嗎很恐怖你不要造成人命理由再來檢討問題就為時已晚太慢了我希望我身為立法委員我身為馬拉圖的立法委員我一定要在中央來發聲拜託懇求院長回去"},{"start":34973.642,"end":35002.968,"text":"馬上把它進入建設計畫讓它去做細部設計讓細部設計出來因為前面的綜合規劃已經花了一億五千萬了已經花了一億五千萬了所以我剛剛有報告北竿機場的改善這工程的規劃南竿機場的存廢問題南竿機場一定要廢掉這個馬祖大橋現在重新修正出來這麼392億的這個預算我們要把它做一個"},{"start":35003.871,"end":35031.127,"text":"你看前院長,蘇貞昌院長,他錢不是問題賴清德院長,錢不是問題390而已就390而已嘛你桃園一個地鐵,從空中變成地下600億元你都花了,是不是?難道跟一張離島你不重視嗎?而且我們不是一次到位八年的時程,一年花三五十億,我其他的錢可以不要你這個財化法怎麼錢,我一毛錢都不要"},{"start":35031.892,"end":35059.719,"text":"拜託這個事情嘛,一年啊法律不是您要不要我們也可以說大家都不要,但是不行這樣說不要我不用也可以嘛,是不是我可以不用嗎?是不是我們已經陷入到一個非常不穩定的中央與地方的財政的劃分的一個狀態裡面下那如果這個合訂了是300多億,那到底是中央還是地方我們不要爭一時啦,我們要爭千秋馬祖這個大橋啊,馬祖大橋"},{"start":35061.53,"end":35085.434,"text":"在朱院長手上批渴在賴總統手上核定我們會感謝你們的好不好我們馬祖真的你看我有介入政黨的問題嗎有跟你談政治的問題嗎我從來沒有我從來沒有有責難過行政院嗎也從來沒有好不好我想院長希望趕快進入建設計畫剛才我不停的質詢您就是說"},{"start":35086.383,"end":35115.872,"text":"你的消息從哪裡來的?你的數字是怎麼出來的?你講個五百億,講個一千億,你就把我砍臼了嘛,是不是?這樣是沒有道理,對我是不公平的啊你到底是誰算出來?如果世襲算出來,需要五百、一千億我給你下跪算啦我太口氣而已,是不是?但是不是這樣嘛你不聽國發會裡面的人,隨便算一下就出來了是不是?我不曉得他是哪裡算出來的?這個拜託院長好不好"},{"start":35116.577,"end":35131.034,"text":"讓他進入建設計畫讓他進入建設計畫我卸任的話我死也瞑目啊對不對,我陳宇人有努力過,我有衝刺過我不要讓人家講我陳宇人你在騙人人家說我在騙人啊,說我在騙人啊"},{"start":35131.69,"end":35144.783,"text":"是不是,我沒有騙我的民眾,我很努力在工作我覺得今天把現在最新的發展跟委員報告,委員也可以跟鄉親說明那目前我們再重新檢討這個問題那個數字是虛無縹緲了嘛"},{"start":35147.386,"end":35162.913,"text":"是空中樓格誰算出來的委員我説明一下因為這個深度達到60米是全球也少見我知道你不是整個技術專家所以我們送到英國去以後然後重新的檢討也同時重新檢討你花500萬給英國算你找英國誰算"},{"start":35164.514,"end":35187.293,"text":"你給他付薪水都不夠啦他有到馬祖來過嗎有看過水深是多深嗎有看過我們的兇案我上次有跟委員報告過我們是建立在世新的這個規劃書上面的基礎因為他已經規劃得很完整我們只是去驗證這樣的一個深度國內沒有經驗然後看看國外有沒有這樣的經驗你進入建設計畫花不了多少錢啊 院長"},{"start":35188.43,"end":35198.539,"text":"後面有多少錢?你把建設計畫裡面細色、詳細弄出來,那才是叫數字啊你國發會有這樣的人才嗎?你海洋大學畢業,你就可以講說300億、500億、800億所以我們送到英國去,請英國的專家來寫證"},{"start":35210.55,"end":35226.444,"text":"英國人有講要400多億嗎?英國的專家至少他們比較有經驗,看得到國外的經驗,因為我們國內沒有這樣的經驗世新也沒有這樣的經驗所以我們要再次的驗證,我們尊重世新的專業但是我們希望再經過第二次的驗證國內的技術專家你不去聽"},{"start":35234.082,"end":35250.413,"text":"外國約量比較遠,我們只花了五百萬五百萬是什麼?五百萬在英國眼中是什麼?是不是OB是什麼錢你知道嗎?所以拜託院長,這個幫我們進入建設計畫我想行政院秘書長今天也會來"},{"start":35252.162,"end":35279.453,"text":"拜託一下好不好你送上去給院長看嘛送上去給總統批嘛好不好你不能在那邊跟我這樣子講包括我本人主委部長我們都有掌握這個狀況新的發展院長你也可以講說五百億啊一千億啊沒有沒有這絕對不是空口亂講你進國發會有沒有在那胡扯八道國發會有這樣的專家你把專家拿出來給我看誰啊這是透過專業的一個評估但是我就是從頭再來看這樣的評估到底準確如何"},{"start":35281.714,"end":35303.337,"text":"還有離島建設基金剩下8.86億我歷史跟陳玉珍委員還有楊耀維的資訊你們說隨時撥補問題你剩下8.86億你一年要花掉3億起碼吧你到現在怎麼辦很多案子到你們那邊可能就停擺了那離島基金就沒了嘛"},{"start":35304.909,"end":35329.129,"text":"委員我們現在是一年編列9頁的預算但是我們今年被砍掉了6%在大院你回去檢討一下,現在時間還剩下55秒小山通啊,拜託一下他們說團過來,我們又再阻止他團現在不來了馬祖街道冷冷清清啊真的所有旅館全部空蕩蕩的"},{"start":35330.356,"end":35357.908,"text":"民意部聊生所以請院長交通部有機會過去看一看陸委會這邊也謝謝我們邱主委很關心我們真的都給我們跟大陸盡量不要吵架了這樣弄下去我的心情被你們搞亂了我立委都不想幹了不要說罷免我最好今天就辭職算了我都幹不下去啦你知道嗎我都幹不下去啦院長你覺得陳遠勝這個兄弟"},{"start":35359.266,"end":35387.717,"text":"你要我留在立法院還是要我離開請你多支持我好不好請你今天結束以後多休息你多支持啊今天謝謝謝謝我們多愛的陳雪生委員謝謝你的質詢謝謝也謝謝左院長各部會首長列席謝謝報告院會本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢我們非常感謝左院長、鄭副院長各位閣員"},{"start":35389.544,"end":35416.466,"text":"一起來列席答詢也要謝謝現場的王振旭委員林月琴委員一起參與今天總質詢我們現在做以下的決定下次會議繼續進行施政方針及施政報告之質詢我們現在繼續處理復議案本院民進黨黨團針對第四次會議包括事項第六案第39案至第42案之決定提出復議請公決案"},{"start":35418.154,"end":35425.107,"text":"我們現在做以下決定令定期處理報告院會本次會議進行到此為止現在散會"}]}},{"id":"159316","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159316","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1468b0c2f72abc7f0eb1c6d063f9a225192e6bfb57ea0be4286dba9178fa551c849987ba386f8b6b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"17:48:54 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謝謝麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":29.895,"end":58.597,"text":"陳委員好站了一天了,馬上下課了今天本席質詢四個感謝一個抱怨我想感謝先來好了感謝國防部國防部從善如流接受本席的建議對馬祖地區的東營指揮部還有舉光指揮部那麼在113年6月27號核定修正"},{"start":60.212,"end":84.353,"text":"國軍地域家級也是由原來的第三級調整為第二級東穎跟菊光我們韓院長也在菊光當過副院長沒水沒電非常的辛苦那麼顧部長這邊從善如流謝謝您把他調整那現在問題來了"},{"start":86.192,"end":114.512,"text":"亮島跟高登亮島院長沒去過我不曉得顧部長去過沒有我去過一個亮島有沒有去過亮島跟高登高登在北竿的旁邊距離大陸是最近的一個地區高登大概也只有幾十個人亮島也只有幾十個官兵大概兩個島不足一百個"},{"start":115.765,"end":139.303,"text":"那麼在釀島尤其辛苦我當縣長的時候每次陪同我們地區的指揮官去做軍務視察的時候他去視察我去慰問我一定到肉舖砍兩個豬腳豬腿豬腿送到那邊去他們都是吃罐頭沒有肉吃魚的話也要靠運補上去"},{"start":143.274,"end":167.746,"text":"亮島那邊大概一兩個禮拜才運補一次那裡沒有因為土質都是研盤沒有土質所以他們都是用那個寶特瓶空青菜放在裡面種植一層一層的他們吃的青菜是這樣因為普及的問題所以我在這邊建議是不是能夠把高登亮島由二級改為一級"},{"start":168.803,"end":198.084,"text":"那麼三級改為二級大概差距是兩千兩百一十塊那麼亮島跟高登只有幾十個人幾十個人是不是可以把他調整從二級調整到一級這裡面差八千塊目前亮島跟高登的這個兵員人家都不願意去了如果您的小孩在那邊當兵的話你會體諒到沒水沒電"},{"start":199.244,"end":214.414,"text":"沒有水也沒有電,非常的辛苦幾十個人啦過去在戰時的時候我一級48年823砲戰十週年老共要做報復我們在民國58年的時候我們全島16歲以上的婦女"},{"start":224.164,"end":250.374,"text":"年輕人不可以離境而且槍彈全部都到位所以非常非常的辛苦我們面對對面一整塊的山群非常的恐懼我們平常都要躲砲彈每天晚上都要躲這個砲彈所以那時候內心的恐懼所以我們一直怕戰爭的爆發所以現在兵兇戰為我想"},{"start":251.809,"end":256.674,"text":"左院長這邊也跟賴總統報告,我們不要贊成,我們希望和平"},{"start":258.596,"end":282.357,"text":"剛剛聽委員談到您對外島的國軍官兵送了一些食物過去我覺得我們應該為國軍弟兄向委員表示致謝我們就是要防衛我們自己,我們走向和平之道才會表示說我們應該加強自己的防衛能力我也希望院長有機會去激勵我們官兵的士氣好不好"},{"start":291.032,"end":301.625,"text":"現在一級只有南沙我們評估的結果認為高登跟亮島跟南沙地區的交通狀況還是有明顯的差異"},{"start":302.236,"end":329.879,"text":"只是交通差異,問題是阿兵哥到那邊去,不能回來啊高層跟亮島之間的交通狀況跟南沙比起來,南沙還是艱困許多他們的面積比南沙少很多南沙還可以發電種菜,在亮島是沒有的請部長回去查一下好不好我想只有幾十個吧,只有幾十位的官兵啊這個是不是請部長回去"},{"start":330.499,"end":357.35,"text":"演繹好不好,我並沒有說一定要怎麼樣啦我是拜託部長第二件事情就是感謝,第二個感謝就是北竿長崎拔長它原來是350公尺長那麼希望它現在已經變更為75公尺那麼原來馬防部啊,馬總防衛部咧演繹啊演繹說要5億,第一個方案要5億第二個方案要9億"},{"start":359.198,"end":386.569,"text":"其實不需要嘛在北甘島上面不過五百多個兵員你不用回答我多少啦我大概心裡有數五百個兵員長訓的時間不多啊不需要那麼大的一個靶場其實一兩年之內啊他們現在是答應我們說五年之內完成遷建因為他這個在淡黃的地區啊而且屁林呢國中國小縣立醫院安養中心我們運動場"},{"start":388.14,"end":407.475,"text":"所以部長這一方面拜託您兩千萬足夠了啦現在用步槍的機會很少我想在馬祖啊我在那邊住了幾十年應該用飛彈的機會比較大一點用不到步槍啊但是步槍呢必須我們是一個常備的一個項目"},{"start":408.567,"end":430.098,"text":"所以部長這一方面希望國防部回去五年之內簽件這個允諾你要實現而且拜託不要那麼大的靶場靶場就是打個靶嘛是不是75公尺而已我也會打我們也常常我們在那邊常常接受民防隊訓練每年也是一年打好幾次部長你說好嗎"},{"start":431.654,"end":456.859,"text":"跟委員報告,我想這件事情因為委員長期關心我們現在一方面是調整這個涉及的週期我想這點你也知道每週五天就是只有禮拜一到禮拜五那時段就是八點半到七點半本來今年的元旦,元月一號我要躺在靶場上給靶兵打院長說我要保重身體謝謝委員的體諒另外我們現在也做隔音牆"},{"start":461.58,"end":486.169,"text":"已經合撥了這個需求的預算金額所以我們會開標以後我們管制在90個工作天點內把它竣工以後就有效可以來防止噪音好那繼續我第三個感謝馬祖飛高雄的航線部長你知道馬祖有多少個南部的官兵嗎有900多位"},{"start":487.714,"end":515.428,"text":"900多位他們回家的路非常辛苦不是坐船就是坐飛機到松山機場還要坐高鐵才能夠到達高雄現在我們已經把這航線已經打開了當然我要感謝中油油罐車幫我們也弄了加油的部分交通部還有華航還有華信還有民航局大家都用了很大的心去做院長你有沒有聽說過"},{"start":516.906,"end":544.352,"text":"哪一家航空公司,我們花蓮也好,台中也好,台中也好,高雄也好,要縣政府補貼的,你們聽過?沒有縣政府補貼?交通部是有補貼的?我們縣政府要補貼,因為他人數不夠的話我們要補貼所以報告院長這一點拜託,還有部長來了我們固定航班時間以後,拜託不要縣政府補貼好不好?馬祖已經沒什麼錢了"},{"start":545.563,"end":567.341,"text":"即使這一次你看看這個財化法通過我一句話都沒講其實我們一般的補助款計畫型的補助款如果中央把我們扣下來我們幾億還不夠用還不夠分配是不是可能我們還倒貼所以對我們來講也不是好事所以我幾乎都沒有聲音我也沒表示意見院長部長在這邊"},{"start":569.212,"end":594.657,"text":"拜託一下,不只是我們發展觀光的需求這裡面也是對我們阿兵哥官兵一個生活上的照顧兩位部長也都在,能不能協力來完成那麼這個錢不要縣政府出,請你們盡量去努力好不好一個月兩個月我們出得起啦太久的話,長年下去的話縣政府你曉得我們財政分級是列第五,第五級、第六級"},{"start":596.357,"end":607.963,"text":"財政狀況非常的刺激,非常的不好,拜託院長可以嗎?報告委員,其實其他的航線也都有補貼,你也都很清楚,因為你也常時在關心這個議題"},{"start":609.144,"end":638.476,"text":"那高雄的這個部分我們還是要看他的整體的運量就是說現在華夏航空其實很擔心就是承載量不足他會虧很多所以他會希望有補貼但補貼的金額其實如果是承載量很少的話那個補貼金額還真的是會蠻大的部長其實台灣到馬祖這個航線我們國家本來就是有責任所以台北到馬祖行的便利嘛行的安全嘛對不對本來就有這個責任啊"},{"start":639.4,"end":666.37,"text":"你為什麼說高雄飛金門都可以飛,飛馬祖不能飛沒有道理,飛澎湖也飛而且都大的飛機在飛我們現在小小的一個要求,小小的要求所以拜託部長回去研究一下,看看有什麼經費什麼樣的法令,如果法令有問題我們可以修改可以修正,好不好讓縣政府能夠喘口氣還有就是這個票價前幾天已經開過會了"},{"start":668.597,"end":689.148,"text":"要報到交通部去核定這一點拜託部長回去看他公文馬上把它批了為什麼因為他票價公布以後華信還要排班排班裡面還請部長幫忙一下據我了解華信很像要排禮拜二但禮拜二的航班要配合官兵休假"},{"start":690.097,"end":708.349,"text":"我們除了發展觀光這裡面主要是阿兵哥阿兵哥回家的路更近所以希望在禮拜五禮拜五的話他們禮拜六跟禮拜天他有多了兩天因為要精打細算他才有這樣的一個需求請部長能不能夠幫忙一下"},{"start":709.015,"end":733.041,"text":"報告委員這件事您也協調了好多次我們會盡量朝向委員的期望不過華信航空它整體的飛機的量能這個我們也需要考慮到因為也有其他的離島有這樣子的需求華信的董事長原來是華航的總經理他現在已經申出了是華航的董事長那麼他已經辭掉華信董事長的職務了"},{"start":734.141,"end":750.896,"text":"那麼現在華信董事長派了沒有我還不知道,派誰我也不知道我最好能夠派陳雪生的話那我最高興了這個問題不要你解決我就可以處理了但是現在董事長換了我真搞不清楚有沒有人跟華信新的董事長,跟他切磋一下好不好"},{"start":752.128,"end":779.276,"text":"你不要再笑了不是,立委不能兼董事長我兼董事長?立委不能兼我不能兼,我辭掉你一定是一個稱職的立委不行啦,聽說罷免又要成功,要罷免我院長,我24小時樹葉斐謝為民服務,我助理請了20幾個你不要看我們台中、桃園、台北,到處都是我們的鄉親"},{"start":780.68,"end":808.648,"text":"我24小時為他們做便民的服務,徵取經費也是第一名的所以拜託你不要去談罷免的事情我沒有談罷免的事情拜託一下因為說真的我對馬祖的鄉親非常熱愛我也熱愛這塊土地,剩下三年讓我做完好不好?很切的拜託好不好?很少人在那邊談這個事情,我是第一個"},{"start":809.913,"end":829.729,"text":"第三個就是有關,顧部長請回,這是衛福部的事情第四個感謝衛福部長上任以後,當然他原來當立法委員在我的隔壁我跟他什麼事情,我們兩個如兄如弟"},{"start":831.104,"end":852.45,"text":"我跟他報告什麼事呢電腦斷層我們馬阿祖的緊急醫療後送大概一年有160位那後送過來以後有什麼問題呢電腦斷層醫生看不清楚上傳以後磨磨糊糊重新再造一次所以我們我要求他拜託他給我一個800"},{"start":853.928,"end":880.424,"text":"八百劑量的斷層後來他說我們部立院全部都是一百多切的不能單獨給你馬祖那我也OK不過他也核定了部長謝謝您雖然你沒有做到八百你當立委的時候答應我八百切但你做部長換了位子以後腦袋又換了不過我也不怪你因為全部大家一視同仁要公平那現在也很多民眾提出來說"},{"start":882.092,"end":905.073,"text":"縣立醫院能不能改部立醫院部立醫院的話要部立醫院的規模土地醫生還有儀器醫療設備等等我看需要幾十億當然以馬祖的規格目前金門厚重大概是兩百四十一個我們一年厚重我們大概最近這三年了最近這三年金門是兩百四十一我們是一百六十"},{"start":906.792,"end":920.318,"text":"所以說那邊基本上的一些配備,像電腦斷層你給我了嘛這個問題,民眾的問題解決了你不然那邊照一次,這邊再照一次因為看不清楚嘛所以非常感謝我們衛福部長"},{"start":921.977,"end":945.474,"text":"有關部立醫院如果你不成立部立醫院的話起碼一些基本的配備需求神經內科神經外科還有我們腦袋現在心梗心臟心臟的問題也蠻多的後送過來心梗所以請部長能不能對這一方面再加強再注重一下可以不可以報告委員"},{"start":948.284,"end":972.294,"text":"我幾件事情回答一下第一個就是說有關電腦斷層其實同步那個時期澎湖醫院也是設立了128間的電腦斷層其實它是再加上現在的AI的一個處理可以把影片處理到非常的清楚所以請委員放心以後我們那邊的醫師朋友所照的"},{"start":973.682,"end":994.716,"text":"回到台灣絕對不需要再重複照如果重複照我再找你嘛好不好而且這可以電腦的傳遞資訊所以這個部分沒有問題至於說在強調連江縣馬祖這個部分尤其在連江縣我們從幾個角度第一個人才的培育醫療器材的一個加強"},{"start":997.004,"end":1021.489,"text":"還有整體的醫療費用的提升,其實都是給予馬祖、給予連江縣最大的努力我想這個部分在幾戶方面也是給予家層加了30%、50%我們兩個人不談政治,我們是兄弟就跟周越南一樣,我們也是好朋友,也是跟兄弟如兄如弟一樣"},{"start":1022.489,"end":1048.937,"text":"我也敬佩我也不會跟你們爭一張嘴啦對這個連江縣的縣民長期的關心我們一定不管我在過去或者是在現在因為那邊太多醫師的朋友了我們一樣都希望他們有一個好的醫療環境來把我們的縣民照顧好謝謝部長好不好你請回謝謝院長那現在我要談到我的抱怨我要談到馬祖大俏"},{"start":1052.571,"end":1081.41,"text":"我還有應該算算不到三年的時間任期就要屆滿了我的年齡也應該差不多了這個馬祖大橋我每天都在關心這個事情從107年我們賴總統時任院長的時候我到行政院找他他馬上就把它批了中和規劃中和規劃他就批了批了以後交通部速度也很快"},{"start":1082.062,"end":1098.895,"text":"折騰公路總局馬上做計畫110年其中報告就出來了送到行政院110年送到行政院以後不停的行政院秘書處還有國發會交通部這個公文一直轉來轉去那個效率實在我非常驚人"},{"start":1109.352,"end":1124.042,"text":"抓了112年一整年喔我不知道躺在誰的桌子上我看不到也追蹤不到好112年不見了111年後來報到113年到國發會國發會說送到英國這個英商奧亞納工程顧問公司"},{"start":1138.82,"end":1167.904,"text":"做第三方的認證認證什麼呢認證技術有沒有問題認證技術有沒有問題那已經也回來了啊技術也沒問題啊我想賴總統時任院長的時候對我們馬祖大家有承諾他的攸關馬祖未來百年發展大街的橋是馬祖人應得的大橋案在自己的手中推動一定全力促成這是他第一次的承諾"},{"start":1168.837,"end":1181.984,"text":"然後賴總統也到縣地去會勘這個南北岸大橋大概3.1公里長他預計要8年完工賴總統也表示經費不是問題當然現在這個經費一直到288億我有一件事情我要拜託院長這個公文輾轉來輾轉去"},{"start":1199.039,"end":1227.721,"text":"那前幾天在院會的時候我也跟卓院長報告卓院長說一直沒看到這個案子我就非常震驚啊這麼重要的事情我在立法院每一年每一次都在總諮詢的時候向院長提出來爭取這個南北岸跨海大橋也就是馬祖大橋但是院長說不知道沒看到公文"},{"start":1228.615,"end":1255.809,"text":"我非常的驚訝我是說這個公文跑哪裡去了這麼重要的事情賴總統親口答應的事情而且院長我也口頭跟你報告好幾次但你就看不到這公文所以這公文一直在國發會交通部一直在秘書長行政院秘書處那邊一直在打轉我想我不曉得什麼時候才能看到院長讓您看到"},{"start":1256.673,"end":1277.721,"text":"我要親自拿去給你看嗎跟委員報告這個工程當然是複雜而且挑戰性很大經過國內國外的工程顧問做了很多的評估目前委員剛剛所說經費達到288億其實上他已經再度修正已經提高到392億金門機場評估的時候我們馬祖機場"},{"start":1285.148,"end":1301.292,"text":"剛剛評估的時候說要幾百億後來十幾億 十幾二十億我們馬祖南崗機場做起來啦所以你不要聽那個啦你要不想幫我做的話你說這個大橋啊 評估要兩千億那我就不會做啦因為他有南崗機場存廢的問題北崗機場要"},{"start":1305.154,"end":1324.225,"text":"修整建的問題,還有大橋的問題,整個合起來談我們還聽到有不同的聲音,主要是現在修正到392億所以我們必須要重新再修正392億誰修正的?是世西嗎?我不曉得是誰修正的?國發會有這樣的專家嗎?他沒有經過一個細部的設計,沒有經過建設計畫的啟動"},{"start":1331.121,"end":1352.749,"text":"他怎麼知道是那麼多億咧?所以我們現在看到的是這樣一個初步的一個概算所以我希望他重新院內還在重新再也不是用含的也不是用吹的一定要詳細精算部長您知道是300多億嗎?你聽過嗎?這個部分我們要回去再了解一下"},{"start":1353.311,"end":1376.419,"text":"不是現在了解,這是你公路總局在精算的公路總局委託4C工程設計公司在弄的4C是我們國內頂尖的這段時間確實整個工程的經費一直在上升委員長期一直關心這個做大橋所以我要跟你報告的是現在最新的發展跟進度不是我是說院長你聽誰講的,誰跟你報告的"},{"start":1378.84,"end":1396.752,"text":"哪一個單位跟你報告呢你回答我好不好,哪一個單位跟你報告呢這個是在院內的公文我們綜合起來算,它一個概算之後要有人算嘛,總是要有人算啊1加1等於2,總要有人算出來嘛不是我,我們還在內部要求重新核定這個數字為什麼會從288億,會漲到390億我想這是馬祖人未來的夢他這個跟機場一定要結合"},{"start":1408.502,"end":1437.496,"text":"欄杆機場要把它停掉欄杆機場的跑道頭端太危險了我每次坐飛機回去我家裡面試試過我每次飛機降落我都怕尤其飛機重飛的時候多恐怖你知道嗎很恐怖你不要造成人命理由再來檢討問題就為時已晚太慢了我希望我身為立法委員我身為馬拉圖的立法委員我一定要在中央來發聲拜託懇求院長回去"},{"start":1438.762,"end":1461.186,"text":"馬上把他進入建設計畫讓他去做細部設計讓細部設計出來因為前面的綜合規劃已經花了1億5千萬了已經花了1億5千萬了所以我剛剛有報告北竿機場的改善這工程的規劃南竿機場的存廢問題南竿機場一定要這個馬祖大橋現在重新修正出來這麼392億的這個預算我們要把它做一個"},{"start":1468.991,"end":1496.226,"text":"你看前院長,蘇貞昌院長,他錢不是問題賴清德院長,錢不是問題390而已就390而已嘛你桃園一個地鐵,從空中變成地下600億元你都花了,是不是?難道跟一張離島你不重視嗎?而且我們不是一次到位8年的時程,一年花三五十億,我其他的錢可以不要你這個財化法怎麼錢,我一毛錢都不要"},{"start":1497.014,"end":1523.22,"text":"拜託這個事情嘛,一年啊法律就是不是您要不要我們也可以說大家都不要,但是不行這樣說不要我不用也可以嘛,是不是我可以不用嗎?是不是我們陷入到一個非常不穩定的中央與地方的財政的劃分的一個狀態裡面下那如果這個合訂了是300多億,那到底是中央還是地方我們不要爭一時啦,我們要爭千秋馬祖這個大橋啊,馬祖大橋"},{"start":1526.65,"end":1550.553,"text":"在朱院長手上批渴在賴總統手上核定我們會感謝你們的好不好我們馬祖真的你看我有介入政黨的問題嗎有跟你談政治的問題嗎我從來沒有我從來沒有有責難過行政院嗎也從來沒有好不好我想院長希望趕快進入建設計畫剛才我不停的質詢您就是說"},{"start":1551.502,"end":1580.995,"text":"你的消息從哪裡來的?你的數字是怎麼出來的?你講個五百億,講個一千億,你就把我砍臼了嘛,是不是?這樣是沒有道理,對我是不公平的啊你到底是誰算出來?如果世襲算出來,需要五百、一千億我給你下跪算啦我太口氣而已,是不是?但是不是這樣嘛你不聽國發會裡面的人,隨便算一下就出來了是不是?我不曉得他是哪裡算出來的這個拜託院長好不好"},{"start":1581.699,"end":1593.189,"text":"讓他進入建設計畫讓他進入建設計畫我卸任的話我死也瞑目啊對不對,我陳宇人有努力過,我有衝刺過我不要讓人家講我陳宇人你在騙人"},{"start":1594.315,"end":1610.127,"text":"人家說我在騙人,我沒有騙我的民眾,我很努力在工作我覺得今天把現在最新的發展跟委員報告,委員也可以跟鄉親說明,那目前我們再重新檢討那個數字是虛無縹緲了"},{"start":1612.509,"end":1633.885,"text":"是空中樓格誰算出來的?委員我說明一下,因為這個深度達到60米是全球也少見的所以我們送到英國去以後呢,然後重新的檢討也同時重新檢討你花500萬給英國算,你找英國誰算?你給他付薪水都不夠啦,他有到馬祖來過嗎?有看過水深是多深嗎?"},{"start":1634.965,"end":1652.398,"text":"我上次有跟委員報告過我們是建立在世新的這個規劃書上面的基礎因為他已經規劃得很完整我們只是去驗證這樣的一個深度國內沒有經驗然後看看國外有沒有這樣的經驗你進入建設計畫花不了多少錢啊 院長"},{"start":1653.55,"end":1663.799,"text":"後面有多少錢?你把建設計畫裡面細色、詳細弄出來,那才是叫數字啊,是不是?你國發會有這樣的人才嗎?你海洋大學畢業,你就可以講說300億、500億、800億所以我們送到英國去,請英國的專家來寫證"},{"start":1675.65,"end":1690.344,"text":"英國的有獎要四百多億嗎?英國的專家至少他們比較有經驗做看到國外的經驗,因為我們國內沒有這樣的經驗世新也沒有這樣的經驗所以我們要再次的驗證,我們尊重世新的專業但是我們希望再經過第二次的驗證國內的技術"},{"start":1697.971,"end":1715.588,"text":"專家你不去聽,外國約量比較遠委員我們這樣是在保障馬祖倫的安全五百萬是什麼?五百萬在英國眼中是什麼?是不是OB是什麼錢你知道嗎?我說你拜託,院長這個幫我們進入建設計畫我想行政院秘書長今天也有來"},{"start":1716.482,"end":1744.561,"text":"秘書長拜託一下好不好你送上去給院長看嘛 送上去給總統批嘛好不好你不能在那邊跟我這樣子講包括我本人 主委 部長我們都有掌握這個狀況 新的發展你也可以講說五百億啊 一千億啊沒有沒有 這絕對不是空口亂講你進國發會有沒有在那胡扯八道國發會有這樣的專家 你把專家拿出來給我看誰啊這是透過專業的一個評估 但是我就是從頭再來看這樣的評估到底準確如何"},{"start":1746.842,"end":1768.457,"text":"還有離島建設基金剩下8.86億我歷史跟陳玉珍委員還有楊雅雅委員之間你們說隨時撥補問你剩下8.86億你一年要花掉3億起碼吧你到現在怎麼辦很多案子到你們那邊可能就停擺了那離島基金就沒了嘛"},{"start":1770.031,"end":1794.244,"text":"委員我們現在是一年編列酒業的預算但是我們今年被砍掉了6%在大院你回去檢討一下,現在時間還剩下55秒小山通啊,拜託一下他們說團過來,我們又再阻止他團現在不來了馬祖街道冷冷清清啊真的所有旅館全部空蕩蕩的"},{"start":1795.475,"end":1820.26,"text":"民運部聊生所以請院長交通部有機會過去看一看陸委會這邊也謝謝我們邱主委很關心我們真的都跟大陸盡量不要吵架了這樣弄下去我的心情被你們搞亂了我立委都不想幹了不要說罷免我最好今天就辭職算了我都幹不下去啦你知道嗎我都幹不下去啦"},{"start":1821.752,"end":1833.264,"text":"院長你覺得陳雪生這個兄弟你要我留在立法院還是要我離開請你多支持我好不好請你今天結束以後多休息謝謝我們都愛的陳雪生委員謝謝你的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":755,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（17時49分）謝謝主席。是不是請卓院長？謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["陳委員雪生：院長辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：站了一天了，馬上下課了。"],["卓院長榮泰：還好、還好。"],["陳委員雪生：今天本席質詢有四個感謝、一個抱怨，我想感謝先來好了，感謝國防部，國防部從善如流，接受本席的建議，對馬祖地區的東引指揮部，還有莒光指揮部，在113年6月27號核定修正國軍地域加給，也就是由原來的第三級調整為第二級。東引跟莒光，我們韓院長也在莒光當過副連長，沒水、沒電，非常的辛苦，顧部長從善如流，謝謝您把它調整了，但現在問題來了，亮島跟高登的部分，院長沒去過亮島吧？我不曉得顧部長去過沒有？"],["顧部長立雄：我去過一個……"],["陳委員雪生：亮島有沒有去過？高登在北竿的旁邊，距離大陸是最近的一個地區……"],["顧部長立雄：是，應該去過高登。"],["陳委員雪生：高登大概只有幾十個人，亮島也只有幾十個官兵，兩個島大概不足100人，亮島尤其辛苦，我當縣長的時候，每次陪同地區指揮官去軍務視察的時候，他去視察、我去慰問，我一定到肉舖砍兩隻豬腳、豬腿送到那邊，因為他們都是吃罐頭，沒有肉吃，魚也要靠運補上去，亮島大概一、兩個禮拜才運補一次，因為那裡的土質都是岩盤，沒有土壤，所以都是用寶特瓶把空心菜種植在裡面，一層一層的，他們吃的青菜都是這樣來的，因為土地的問題，所以我在這邊建議，是不是能夠把高登、亮島由二級改為一級？三級改為二級，大概差距2,210塊，亮島跟高登只有幾十個人，是不是可以把它從二級調整到一級，這中間是差8,000塊？目前亮島跟高登的兵員，大家都不願意去，如果您的小孩在那邊當兵，你就會體諒到沒水、沒電的辛苦，幾十個人在那邊非常的辛苦。過去戰時的時候，我憶及48年八二三砲戰的10週年，老共要報復，我們在民國58年時是全島16歲以上的婦女、年輕人都不可以離境，而且槍彈全部到位，所以非常非常辛苦，面對對面一整塊山群非常的恐懼，平常每天晚上我們都要躲砲彈，內心非常恐懼，所以一直很怕戰爭爆發；現在兵兇戰危，我想卓院長也要跟賴總統報告，我們不要戰爭，我們希望和平……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛聽委員談到您為外島國軍官兵送了一些食物，我覺得我們應該為國軍弟兄向委員表示致謝，感謝委員……"],["陳委員雪生：有機會我希望我們總統……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就是要防衛自己，走向和平之道，才會表示應該加強我們自己的防衛能力。"],["陳委員雪生：我也希望院長有機會去激勵我們官兵的士氣，好不好？這個由二級改為一級的部分，是不是請顧部長研議一下？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，現在一級只有南沙，我們評估的結果認為高登、亮島跟南沙地區的交通狀況還是有明顯的差異……"],["陳委員雪生：只是交通差異？問題是阿兵哥到那邊就不能回來啊！"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，我想高登……"],["陳委員雪生：他不能回來啊！"],["顧部長立雄：高登、亮島之間的交通狀況跟南沙比起來，南沙還是艱困許多，因為南沙要回來……"],["陳委員雪生：他們的面積比南沙少很多，南沙還可以發電、種菜，亮島是沒有的，請部長回去查一下，好不好？我想只有幾十位官兵，是不是請部長回去研議，好不好？我並沒有說一定要怎麼樣，我是拜託部長。","第二個感謝就是北竿塘岐靶場，它原來是350公尺長，現在已經同意變更為75公尺，原來馬防部、馬祖防衛部研議第一個方案要5億，第二個方案要9億，其實不需要嘛！在北竿島上面不過五百多個兵員，你不用回答我多少，我當然心裡有數。500個兵員常訓的時間不多，不需要那麼大的一個靶場，其實一、兩年之內，他們現在是答應我們5年之內完成遷建，因為它這個在蛋黃的地區，而且毗鄰國中、國小、縣立醫院、安養中心、我們的運動場，所以部長，這方面要拜託您，2,000萬足夠了啦！現在用步槍的機會很少，我在馬祖住了幾十年，應該用飛彈的機會比較大一點，用不到步槍，但是步槍必須是我們的一個常備的項目，所以部長，這方面希望國防部回去在5年之內遷建，這個允諾你要實現，而且拜託，不要那麼大的靶場，靶場就是打個靶，75公尺而已，我也會打啊！我們在那邊也常常接受民防隊訓練，每年也是打好幾次，部長你說好嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想這件事情因為委員長期關心，我們現在一方面是調整射擊的週期，我想這點你也知道每週5天，就是只有禮拜一到禮拜五，時段的話就是8點半到……"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，我非常謝謝院長的關心。"],["顧部長立雄：和2點半到4點半。"],["陳委員雪生：本來今年元旦（1月1號）我要躺在靶場上給靶兵打，院長說我要保重身體……"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員的體諒。"],["陳委員雪生：那就託你的福好不好？我就不要被槍斃了……"],["顧部長立雄：另外，我們現在也做隔音牆，現在已經核撥了需求的預算金額，所以我們會在開標以後管制在90個工作天以內把它竣工，就能有效防止這個噪音。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，謝謝啦！繼續我的第三個感謝。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["陳委員雪生：馬祖飛高雄的航線，部長知道馬祖有多少個南部的官兵嗎？有九百多位。他們回家的路非常辛苦，不是坐船，就是坐飛機到松山機場，還要坐高鐵才能夠到達高雄。現在我們已經把這個航線打開了，當然我要感謝中油，油罐車也幫我們弄了，這是加油的部分；交通部、華航、華信、民航局大家都用了很大的心去做。院長有沒有聽說過哪一家航空公司，不管是花蓮也好、臺中也好、臺東也好、高雄也好要縣政府補貼的，有沒有聽過？"],["卓院長榮泰：縣政府補貼？交通部是有補貼啦！"],["陳委員雪生：但我們縣政府要補貼啊！因為人數不夠的話我們就要補貼，所以報告院長，這一點拜託。還有部長來了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：固定航班的時間以後拜託不要由縣政府補貼好不好？馬祖已經沒什麼錢了，即使這一次，你看看這個財劃法通過，我一句話都沒講啊！其實我們一般的補助款、計畫型的補助款如果中央把我們扣下來，我們幾億還不夠用、還不夠分配，是不是？可能我們還要倒貼，對我們來講也不是好事，所以我幾乎沒有聲音，也沒有表示意見。院長、部長在這邊，拜託一下，不只是我們有發展觀光的需求，這裡面也是對我們阿兵哥等官兵生活上的照顧，兩位部長也都在，能不能協力完成？這個錢不要由縣政府出，請你們儘量去努力好不好？一個月、兩個月我們出得起，太久的話、長年下去的話，你曉得我們縣政府的財政分級是列在第五級、第六級，財政狀況非常吃緊、非常不好，拜託院長可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實其他的航線也都有補貼，您也都很清楚，因為你也是長期在關心這個議題。高雄的部分我們還是要看它整體的運量，現在華信航空其實很擔心乘載量不足它會虧很多，所以它會希望有補貼，但補貼的金額如果是乘載量很少的話，那個補貼的金額還真的是會滿大的。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，其實臺灣到馬祖這個航線，我們國家本來就有責任、有這個義務……"],["陳部長世凱：所以臺北到馬祖的部分……"],["陳委員雪生：要讓行的便利、行的安全，對不對？本來就有這個責任啊！為什麼高雄飛金門可以飛，飛馬祖不能飛呢？沒有道理嘛！飛澎湖也飛了，而且都是大的飛機在飛耶！我們現在一個小小的要求，這一點拜託部長回去研究一下，看看有什麼經費、有什麼樣的法令，如果法令有問題我們可以修改、可以修正嘛，好不好？讓縣政府能夠喘一口氣。還有一個是票價問題，前幾天已經開過會了，要報到交通部核定，這一點拜託部長，回去看到公文馬上批，為什麼呢？因為票價公布以後，華信還要排班，排班的問題還要請部長幫忙，據我了解，華信很像要排禮拜二的航班，但我們那邊除了發展觀光外，還要配合官兵休假，主要還是要讓阿兵哥回家的路更近，所以希望排在禮拜五，排在禮拜五的話，他們禮拜六、禮拜天就多了兩天，因為要精打細算，他們是有這樣的需求，能不能請部長幫忙一下？"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，這件事您也協調好多次了，我們會儘量朝向委員的期望，不過，我們也需要考慮到華信航空整體的飛機量能，因為其他離島也有這樣的需求。"],["陳委員雪生：華信董事長原來是華航總經理，現在已經真除，是華航董事長，所以已經辭掉華信董事長的職務，現在華信董事長派了沒有我不知道，派誰我也不知道，最好能夠派陳雪生，我最高興了，那麼這個問題不用你解決，我就可以處理了。"],["陳部長世凱：是，是。"],["陳委員雪生：但是現在董事長換了，我真的搞不清楚，部長，能不能跟華信新董事長切磋一下，好不好？院長，你不要再笑啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是啦！立委不能兼董事長啦！"],["陳委員雪生：我兼董事長喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：立委不能兼啦！"],["陳委員雪生：不能兼，我辭掉啊！我辭掉……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，沒有，你是一個稱職的立委。"],["陳委員雪生：不行啦！聽說罷免要成功了，要罷免我欸！院長，我24小時夙夜匪懈為民服務，助理請了二十幾個，你不要看我們是馬祖，臺中、桃園、臺北到處都有我們的鄉親，我24小時為他們做便民服務，爭取經費也是第一名，所以拜託不要去談罷免的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有談罷免的事情。"],["陳委員雪生：沒有吼？拜託一下，因為說真的，我對馬祖鄉親非常熱愛，也熱愛這塊土地，剩下3年讓我做完，好不好？真的跟你懇切、懇切的拜託，好不好？OK，很少人在這邊談這個事情，我是第一個。","好，顧部長你請回，接下來是有關衛福部的事情。","第四個感謝是，衛福部部長上任以後，當然，他原來當立法委員時，辦公室在我隔壁，我們兩個如兄如弟，我跟他報告什麼事呢？電腦斷層。我們馬祖的緊急醫療後送，一年大概有160位，後送過來後有什麼問題呢？電腦斷層醫生看不清楚，上傳以後模模糊糊，要重新再照一次，所以我要求他、拜託他給我一個800劑量的斷層，後來他說部立醫院全部都是一百多切的，不能單獨給馬祖，那我也OK，不過他也核定了！部長，謝謝你啦！雖然你沒有做到你當立委時答應我的800切，當了部長以後，換了位子腦袋也換了，不過我不怪你，因為大家要一視同仁，要公平嘛！問題是現在很多民眾提出希望縣立醫院改為部立醫院，而部立醫院要有部立醫院的規模、土地、醫生，還有儀器、醫療設備等等，我看需要幾十億，當然，以馬祖的規格來講，最近這3年，金門一年後送大概是241位，我們是160位，在基本配備上，譬如電腦斷層你給我們了，民眾的這個問題解決了，不然那邊照一次，這邊還要再照一次，因為看不清楚嘛，所以非常感謝衛福部部長。至於部立醫院的問題，如果你不成立部立醫院，起碼也要有一些基本配備需求，像神經內科、神經外科，還有腦袋方面的、心梗的，現在心臟問題也滿多的，需要後送過來，請部長在這方面再加強、再注重，可不可以？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，幾件事情回答，第一個就是有關電腦斷層，其實那個時期澎湖醫院也是同步設立了128切的電腦斷層，再加上現在AI的處理，可以把影片處理到非常清楚，所以請委員放心，以後那邊醫師朋友所照的回到臺灣絕對不須再重複照……"],["陳委員雪生：如果要重複照我就再找你，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：而且這個可以用電腦傳遞，所以這個部分沒有問題。至於連江縣馬祖的這個部分，我們從幾個角度，第一個，人才的培育、醫療器材的加強，還有整體醫療費用的提升，其實都是給予馬祖、給予連江縣最大的努力。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個部分在給付方面也都是加成加了30%，甚至是50%……"],["陳委員雪生：部長，我們兩個人不談政治，我們是兄弟，就跟卓院長一樣，我們也是好朋友，也是如兄如弟 ……"],["邱部長泰源：我很敬佩委員對連江縣縣民長期的關心，不管過去或者是現在，因為那邊有太多我的醫師朋友了，我們一樣都希望他們有一個好的醫療環境，把我們的縣民照顧好。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝部長，你請回。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：院長，現在我要談談我的抱怨了，我要談的是馬祖大橋，算一算我的任期應該不到3年的時間就要屆滿了，我的年齡應該也差不多了，我每天都在關心馬祖大橋這個事情，從107年賴總統時任院長的時候，我到行政院找他，他馬上就把它批了，綜合規劃他就批了。批了以後，交通部速度也很快，責成公路總局馬上做計畫，110年期中報告就出來了，送到行政院。110年送到行政院以後，從行政院秘書處、國發會、交通部，這個公文一直不停地轉來轉去，效率實在是非常驚人，轉了112年一整年，我不知道躺在誰的桌子上，我看不到，也追蹤不到。","112年不見了，後來放到113年才到國發會，國發會說送到英商奧雅納工程顧問公司做第三方認證，認證什麼呢？認證技術有沒有問題。已經也回來了，技術也沒問題了，時任院長的賴總統對我們馬祖大橋有承諾，他說攸關馬祖未來百年發展大計的橋是馬祖人應得的，大橋案在自己的手中推動，一定全力促成，這是他第一次的承諾。然後賴總統也到現地去會勘，這個南北竿大橋大概有3.1公里長，預計要8年完工，賴總統也表示經費不是問題，當然現在這個經費已經到288億了。","我有一件事情要拜託院長，這個公文輾轉來輾轉去，前幾天在院會的時候我也跟卓院長報告，卓院長說一直沒看到這個案子，我就非常震驚了，這麼重要的事情，我在立法院每一年、每一次都在總質詢的時候向院長提出來，爭取南北竿跨海大橋，也就是馬祖大橋，但是院長說不知道、沒看到公文，我非常地驚訝，我是說這個公文跑哪裡去了？這麼重要的事情，賴總統親口答應的事情，而且院長，我也口頭跟你報告好幾次了，但就是看不到這個公文，這個公文在國發會、交通部、行政院秘書處那邊一直在打轉，我不曉得什麼時候才能讓院長看到，我要親自拿去給你看嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，這個工程當然是複雜，而且挑戰性很大……"],["陳委員雪生：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：經過國內、國外的工程顧問做了很多的評估……"],["陳委員雪生：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員剛剛所說目前經費達到288億……"],["陳委員雪生：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：其實它已經再度修正了，已經提高到392億……"],["陳委員雪生：三百多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：392億。"],["陳委員雪生：金門機場評估的時候，我們馬祖機場剛剛評估，說要幾百億……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們現在……"],["陳委員雪生：後來十幾、二十億，我們馬祖南竿機場做起來了啦！所以你不要聽那個啦！你要不想幫我做的話，你說這個大橋評估要2,000億，那我就沒轍了啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為它有南竿機場存廢的問題、北竿機場要整建的問題，還有這個大橋的問題，這整個要合起來談……"],["陳委員雪生：院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還聽到有不同的聲音，主要是現在它修正到392億，所以我們必須要重新再……"],["陳委員雪生：三百多少億？"],["卓院長榮泰：392億。"],["陳委員雪生：誰修正的？是世曦嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我現在……"],["陳委員雪生：我不曉得是誰修正的？國發會有這樣的專家嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：要算啦！它現在……"],["陳委員雪生：他沒有經過一個細部的設計、沒有經過建設計畫的啟動，他怎麼知道是那麼多億呢？他怎麼知道要三百多億？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們現在看到的是這樣一個初步的概算，我希望他重新……"],["陳委員雪生：院長，這個工程不是用喊的……"],["卓院長榮泰：院內還在重新……"],["陳委員雪生：不是用喊的，也不是用吹的，一定要詳細計算。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，就是有這個數據啊！"],["陳委員雪生：部長，您知道是三百多億嗎？你聽過嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們要回去再了解一下。"],["陳委員雪生：不是現在了解耶！這是你公路總局在精算的，公路總局委託世曦工程設計公司在弄的……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員……"],["陳委員雪生：世曦是我們國內頂尖的耶！"],["陳部長世凱：這段時間確實整個工程的經費一直在往上跑……"],["陳委員雪生：院長，我請教你，您說的三百多億是誰算出來的？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員長期一直關心這座大橋，所以我要跟你報告的是現在最新的發展及進度……"],["陳委員雪生：不是，我是說，院長，你聽誰講的？誰跟你報告的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在資料……"],["陳委員雪生：哪一個單位跟你報告的？你回答我……"],["卓院長榮泰：資料上顯示就是如此……"],["陳委員雪生：你回答我，好不好？哪一個單位跟你報告的？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是在院內的公文，我們綜合起來算，有一個概算之後……"],["陳委員雪生：總是要有人算嘛！總是要有人算啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我不可能去……"],["陳委員雪生：1加1等於2，總要有人算出來，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我們內部還再要求重新核定這個數字，為什麼會從288億漲到392億……"],["陳委員雪生：院長，這是馬祖人未來的夢，這個與機場一定要結合，南竿機場要停掉，南竿機場的跑道頭端太危險了！我每次坐飛機回去，我家裡面失事過，每次飛機降落，我都怕，尤其飛機重飛的時候多恐怖，你知道嗎？很恐怖耶！你不要造成人命以後再來檢討問題就為時已晚，太慢了！我身為立法委員，我身為馬祖的立法委員，我一定要在中央來發聲，拜託！懇求院長回去馬上把它進入建設計畫，讓它去做細部設計，讓世曦去細部設計出來，因為前面的綜合規劃已經花了1億5,000萬了，已經花了1億5,000萬了。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我剛剛跟委員報告，北竿機場改善工程的規劃、南竿機場的存廢問題……"],["陳委員雪生：南竿機場一定要廢掉，為什麼呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：和馬祖大橋現在重新修正出來392億的這個預算，我們要把它做一個……"],["陳委員雪生：你看前院長蘇貞昌院長說錢不是問題，賴清德院長也講錢不是問題，392億就392億嘛！桃園一個地鐵從空中變成地下要600億耶！你都花了，是不是？難道偏鄉離島你不重視嗎？而且我們不是一次到位，8年的時程，一年花30、50億，其他的錢我可以不要，財劃法什麼錢我一毛錢都不要，拜託這個事情一年……"],["卓院長榮泰：法律不是您要不要，我們也可以說，大家都不要，但是不行這樣說不要……"],["陳委員雪生：那你給我，我還給你，我不用也可以，是不是？我可以不用，是不是？我沒有跟你去爭……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在就是陷入到一個非常不穩定的中央與地方財政劃分的狀態裡面……"],["陳委員雪生：院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果這個核定了，是三百多億，那到底是中央還是地方要……"],["陳委員雪生：我們不要爭一時啦！我們要爭千秋……"],["卓院長榮泰：是、是、是。"],["陳委員雪生：馬祖大橋在卓院長手上批可，在賴總統手上核定，我們會感謝你們的，好不好？你看我有介入政黨的問題嗎？有跟你談政治的問題嗎？我從來沒有，我從來沒有，有責難過行政院嗎？也從來沒有，好不好？院長，希望趕快進入建設計畫，剛才我不停質詢你說你的消息從哪裡來？你的數字是怎麼出來的？你講個500億、講個1,000億，你就把我處理掉了，是不是？這樣是沒有道理，對我是不公平的啊！到底是誰算出來的？如果世曦算出來需要500億、1,000億，我給你下跪，算了，我嘆一口氣而已，是不是？但是不是這樣嘛！不能你國發會裡面的人隨便算一下就出來了，是不是？我不曉得他是哪裡算出來的，這個拜託院長好不好？讓它進入建設計畫。我卸任的話，我死也瞑目啊！我陳雪生有努力過，我有衝刺過，我不要讓人家講：陳雪生，你在騙人。人家說我在騙人，我沒有騙我的選民，我沒有，我很努力在工作喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：我今天把現在最新的發展跟委員報告，委員也可以跟鄉親說明，目前我們在重新檢討這個……"],["陳委員雪生：最新的發展，那個數字是虛無飄渺的，是空中樓閣，誰算出來的？"],["卓院長榮泰：請主委說明。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我說明一下，因為這個深度達到60米，是全球也少見……"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，你不是這個的技術專家。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我們送到英國去以後，重新檢討，也同時重新檢討預算……"],["陳委員雪生：你花500萬給英國算，你找英國誰算？你給他付薪水都不夠啦！他有到馬祖來過嗎？有看過水深是多深嗎？有看過我們的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我上次有跟委員報告過，我們是建立在世曦這個規劃書的基礎上面，因為它已經規劃得很完整，我們只是去驗證，這樣的一個深度，國內沒有經驗，看看國外有沒有這樣的經驗。"],["陳委員雪生：不是，你進入建設計畫嘛！進入建設計畫花不了多少錢啊，院長，花不了多少錢嘛！你在建設計畫裡面把細設詳細弄出來，那才叫數字啊！是不是？你不能就由國發會，你誰啊？國發會有這樣的人才嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這樣的一個發展，就是我們……"],["陳委員雪生：你不能講你是海洋大學畢業，你就可以講說300億、500億、800億，隨便你講……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我們送到英國去，請英國的專家來協助……"],["陳委員雪生：英國有講嗎？英國人有講要四百多億嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：至少英國的專家他們比較有經驗看到國外的經驗，因為我們國內沒有這樣的經驗，世曦也沒有這樣的經驗。"],["陳委員雪生：那以後就不要世曦了嘛！你要世曦幹什麼？世曦可以裁撤啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我們要再次的驗證，我們尊重世曦的專業，但是我們希望再經過第二次的驗證。"],["陳委員雪生：國內的技術專家你不去聽，外國的月亮比較圓，聽他的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我們這樣是在保障馬祖人的安全。"],["陳委員雪生：你們花了500萬耶！500萬是什麼啊？500萬在英國人眼中是什麼？歐幣是什麼錢你知道嗎？所以拜託院長，這個幫我們進入建設計畫，我想行政院秘書長今天也有來，秘書長，拜託一下，好不好？你送上去給院長看嘛！送上去給總統批嘛！好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：今天跟委員報告……"],["陳委員雪生：不能在這邊跟我這樣子講……"],["卓院長榮泰：包括我本人、主委、部長，我們都有掌握這個狀況、新的發展，我們都知道。"],["陳委員雪生：院長你也可以講說500億、1,000億啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有，這個絕對不是空口亂講。"],["陳委員雪生：你聽國發會在那邊胡說八道，國發會有這樣的專家，你把專家找出來給我看，誰啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是透過專業的一個評估，但是我就是從頭再來看這樣評估到底準確如何。"],["陳委員雪生：我還會問。","還有離島建設基金現在剩下8.86億，我歷次跟陳玉珍委員、楊曜委員質詢，你們說隨時撥補，問題是你剩下8.86億，你一年起碼要花掉3億，到現在怎麼辦？很多案子到你們那邊可能就停擺了，那離島基金就沒了嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我們現在是一年編列9億的預算，但是我們今年在大院被砍掉了6%。"],["陳委員雪生：你回去檢討一下。","現在時間還剩下55秒，小三通拜託一下，他們說團過來，我們又在阻止他，團現在不來了，馬祖街道冷冷清清，真的，所有的旅館全部空蕩蕩，民不聊生。請院長、交通部有機會過去看一看，也謝謝陸委會邱主委很關心我們，真的多給我們……跟大陸盡量不要吵架，哎呀！這樣弄下去，我的心情被你們搞亂了，我立委都不想幹了，不要說罷免，我最好今天就辭職算了，我都幹不下去了，你知道嗎？我都幹不下去了。院長，你覺得陳雪生這個兄弟，你要我留在立法院，還是要我離開？請你多支持我好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：請你今天結束以後多休息。"],["陳委員雪生：啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：今天結束以後啦！多休息。"],["陳委員雪生：今天結束以後當然要休息啊！"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝我們都愛的陳雪生委員，謝謝你的質詢。也謝謝卓院長、各部會首長列席，謝謝。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，我們非常感謝卓院長、鄭副院長、各位閣員一起列席答詢，也要謝謝現場的王正旭委員、林月琴委員一起參與今天的總質詢。","現在作以下決定：下次會議繼續進行施政方針及施政報告之質詢。","現在繼續處理復議案。本院民進黨黨團針對第4次會議報告事項第六案、第三十九案至第四十二案之決定提出復議，請公決案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝麻煩再請卓院長備詢"},{"start":28.871,"end":57.573,"text":"陳委員好站了一天了,馬上下課了今天本席質詢四個感謝一個抱怨我想感謝先來好了感謝國防部國防部從善如流接受本席的建議對馬祖地區的東營指揮部還有舉光指揮部那麼在113年6月27號核定修正"},{"start":59.187,"end":86.321,"text":"國軍地域加級也是由原來的第三級調整為第二級東營跟舉光我們韓院長也在舉光當過副院長沒水沒電非常的辛苦那麼顧部長這邊從善如流謝謝您把他調整那現在問題來了亮島跟高登"},{"start":87,"end":113.488,"text":"亮島院長沒去過我不曉得顧部長去過沒有我去過一個亮島有沒有去過亮島跟高登高登在北竿旁邊距離大陸是最近的一個地區高登大概也只有幾十個人亮島也只有幾十個官兵大概兩個島不足一百個"},{"start":114.741,"end":138.281,"text":"那麼在釀島尤其辛苦我當縣長的時候每次陪同我們地區的指揮官去做軍務視察的時候他去視察我去慰問我一定到肉舖砍兩個豬腳豬腿豬腿送到那邊去他們都是吃罐頭沒有肉吃魚的話也要靠運補上去"},{"start":142.25,"end":166.725,"text":"亮島那邊大概一兩個禮拜才運補一次那裡沒有因為土質都是研盤沒有土質所以他們都是用那個寶特瓶空青菜放在裡面種植一層一層的他們吃的青菜是這樣因為普及的問題所以我在這邊建議是不是能夠把高登亮島由二級改為一級"},{"start":167.779,"end":197.06,"text":"那麼三級改為二級大概差距是兩千兩百一十塊那麼亮島跟高登只有幾十個人幾十個人是不是可以把他調整從二級調整到一級這裡面差八千塊目前亮島跟高登的這個兵員人家都不願意去了如果您的小孩在那邊當兵的話你會體諒到沒水沒電"},{"start":198.22,"end":213.39,"text":"沒有水也沒有電,非常的辛苦幾十個人過去在戰時的時候我一級48年823砲戰十週年老共要做報復我們在民國58年的時候我們全島16歲以上的婦女"},{"start":223.137,"end":249.993,"text":"年輕人不可以離境而且槍彈全部都到位所以非常非常的辛苦我們面對對面一整塊的山群非常的恐懼我們平常都要躲砲彈每天晚上都要躲這個砲彈所以那時候內心的恐懼所以我們一直怕戰爭的爆發所以現在兵兇戰委我想"},{"start":250.782,"end":255.658,"text":"左院長這邊也跟賴總統報告,我們不要贊成,我們希望和平"},{"start":257.588,"end":281.343,"text":"剛剛聽委員談到您對外島的國軍官兵送了一些食物過去我覺得我們應該為國軍弟兄向委員表示致謝我們就是要防衛我們自己,我們走向和平之道才會表示說我們應該加強自己的防衛能力我也希望院長有機會去激勵我們官兵的士氣好不好"},{"start":286.274,"end":288.397,"text":"跟委員報告,現在一級就很難殺"},{"start":293.203,"end":316.782,"text":"我們評估的結果認為高登跟亮島跟南沙地區的交通狀況還是有明顯的差異只是交通差異,問題是阿兵哥到那邊去不能回來啊沒有我想說高登跟亮島之間的交通狀況跟南沙比起來南沙還是艱困許多他們那邊已經比南沙少很多"},{"start":317.382,"end":344.634,"text":"南沙還可以發電種菜在亮島是沒有的請部長回去查一下好不好我想只有幾十個吧只有幾十位的官兵啊這個是不是請部長回去演繹好不好我並沒有說一定要怎麼樣啦我是拜託部長第二件事情就是感謝第二感謝就是北竿長崎拔長它原來是350公尺長那麼希望它現在已經變更為75公尺"},{"start":346.926,"end":376.152,"text":"那麼原來馬防部,馬組防衛部研議啊研議說要五億第一個方案要五億第二個方案要九億其實不需要嘛在北甘島上面不過五百多個兵員你不用回答我多少啦我大概心裡有數五百個兵員長訓的時間不多啊不需要那麼大的一個靶場其實一兩年之內啊他們現在是答應我們說五年之內完成簽件"},{"start":377.25,"end":406.457,"text":"因為他這個在淡黃的地區啊而且聘您國中國小縣立醫院安養中心我們運動場所以部長這一方面拜託您兩千萬足夠了啦現在用步槍的機會很少我想在馬祖啊我在那邊住了幾十年應該用飛彈的機會比較大一點用不到步槍啊但是步槍呢必須我們是一個常備的一個項目"},{"start":407.543,"end":429.071,"text":"所以部長這一方面希望國防部回去五年之內簽件這個允諾你要實現而且拜託不要那麼大的靶場靶場就是打個靶嘛是不是75公尺而已我也會打我們也常常我們在那邊常常接受民防隊訓練每年也是一年打好幾次部長你說好嗎"},{"start":430.63,"end":450.065,"text":"跟委員報告,我想這件事情因為委員長期關心我們現在一方面是調整這個涉及的週期我想這點你也知道每週五天就是只有禮拜一到禮拜五那時段就是八點半到七點半本來今年的元旦元月一號我要躺在靶場上給靶兵打店長說我要保重身體謝謝委員的體諒另外我們現在也做隔音牆"},{"start":460.553,"end":485.15,"text":"已經合撥了這個需求的預算金額所以我們會開標以後我們管制在90個工作天點內把它竣工以後就有效可以來防止噪音好,那繼續我第三個感謝馬祖飛高雄的航線部長你知道馬祖有多少個南部的官兵嗎?有900多位"},{"start":486.69,"end":514.406,"text":"900多位他們回家的路非常辛苦不是坐船就是坐飛機到松山機場還要坐高鐵才能夠到達高雄現在我們已經把這航線已經打開了當然我要感謝中油油罐車幫我們也弄了加油的部分交通部還有華航還有華信還有民航局大家都用了很大的心去做院長你有沒有聽說過"},{"start":515.882,"end":543.328,"text":"哪一家航空公司,我們花蓮也好,台中也好,台中也好,高雄也好,要縣政府補貼的,你們聽過?沒有縣政府補貼,交通部是有補貼的?我們縣政府要補貼,因為他人數不夠的話我們要補貼所以報告院長這一點拜託,還有部長來了我們固定航班時間以後,拜託不要縣政府補貼好不好?馬祖已經沒什麼錢了"},{"start":544.54,"end":566.317,"text":"即使這一次你看看這個財化法通過我一句話都沒講其實我們一般的補助款計畫型的補助款如果中央把我們扣下來我們幾億還不夠用還不夠分配是不是可能我們還倒貼所以對我們來講也不是好事所以我幾乎都沒有聲音我也沒表示意見院長部長在這邊"},{"start":568.188,"end":593.636,"text":"拜託一下不只是我們發展觀光的需求這裡面也是對我們阿兵哥官兵一個生活上的照顧兩位部長也都在能不能協力來完成那麼這個錢不要縣政府出請你們盡量去努力好不好一個月兩個月我們出得起太久的話長年下去的話縣政府你曉得我們財政分級是列第五第五級第六級"},{"start":595.337,"end":606.958,"text":"產生狀況非常的刺激,非常的不好,拜託院長可以嗎?其實其他的航線也都有補貼,你也都很清楚,因為你也常時在關心這個議題"},{"start":608.12,"end":637.45,"text":"那高雄的這個部分我們還是要看他的整體的運量就是說現在華夏航空其實很擔心就是承載量不足他會虧很多所以他會希望有補貼但補貼的金額其實如果是承載量很少的話那個補貼金額還真的是會蠻大的部長其實台灣到馬祖這個航線我們國家本來就是有責任所以台北到馬祖行的便利嘛行的安全嘛對不對本來就有這個責任啊"},{"start":638.376,"end":665.346,"text":"你為什麼說高雄飛金門都可以飛,飛馬祖不能飛沒有道理,飛澎湖也飛而且都大的飛機在飛我們現在小小的一個要求,小小的要求所以拜託部長回去研究一下,看看有什麼經費什麼樣的法令,如果法令有問題我們可以修改可以修正,好不好讓縣政府能夠喘口氣還有就是這個票價前幾天已經開過會了"},{"start":667.573,"end":695.588,"text":"要報到交通部去核定這一點拜託部長回去看他公文馬上把它批了為什麼因為他票價公布以後華信還要排班排班裡面還請部長幫忙一下我據我了解華信很像要排禮拜二但禮拜二的航班因為要配合官兵休假我們除了發展官方這裡面主要是阿兵哥阿兵哥回家日路更近所以希望在禮拜五"},{"start":696.431,"end":707.325,"text":"禮拜五的話他們禮拜六跟禮拜天他有多了兩天因為要精打細算他才有這樣的一個需求請部長能不能夠幫忙一下"},{"start":707.991,"end":732.034,"text":"報告委員這件事您也協調了好多次我們會盡量朝向委員的期望不過華信航空它整體的飛機的量能這個我們也需要考慮到因為也有其他的離島有這樣子的需求華信的董事長原來是華航的總經理他現在已經申出了是華航的董事長那麼他已經辭掉華信董事長的職務了"},{"start":733.12,"end":749.988,"text":"那麼現在華信董事長派了沒有我還不知道,派誰我也不知道我最好能夠派陳雪生的話那我最高興了這個問題不要你解決我就可以處理了但是現在董事長換了我真搞不清楚啊能不能跟華信新的董事長給他切磋一下好不好"},{"start":751.104,"end":778.249,"text":"你不要再笑啊不是,立委不能兼董事長我兼董事長?立委不能兼我不能兼,我辭掉啊你一定是一個稱職的立委不行啦,聽說罷免又要成功,要罷免我欸,院長我24小時,數月匪懈為民服務,我助理請了20幾個啊你不要看我們台中、桃園、台北,到處都是我們的鄉親啊"},{"start":779.656,"end":807.635,"text":"我24小時為他們做便民的服務,徵取經費也是第一名的所以拜託你不要去談罷免的事情我沒有談罷免的事情拜託一下因為說真的我對馬祖的鄉親非常熱愛我也熱愛這塊土地,剩下三年讓我做完好不好這一點跟你懇切的拜託好不好這個很少人在那邊談這個事情,我是第一個"},{"start":808.892,"end":828.709,"text":"第三個就是有關,顧部長請回,這是衛福部的事情第四個感謝衛福部長上任以後,當然他原來當立法委員在我的隔壁我跟他什麼事情,我們兩個如兄如弟"},{"start":830.08,"end":851.426,"text":"我跟他報告什麼事呢電腦斷層我們馬阿祖的緊急醫療後送大概一年有160位那後送過來以後有什麼問題呢電腦斷層醫生看不清楚上傳以後磨磨糊糊重新再造一次所以我們我要求他拜託他給我一個800"},{"start":852.904,"end":879.404,"text":"八百劑量的斷層後來他說我們部立院全部都是一百多切的不能單獨給你馬祖那我也OK不過他也核定了部長謝謝您雖然你沒有做到八百你當立委的時候答應我八百切但你做部長換了位子以後腦袋又換了不過我也不怪你因為全部大家一視同仁要公平那現在也很多民眾提出來說"},{"start":881.068,"end":902.255,"text":"縣立醫院能不能改部立醫院部立醫院的話要部立醫院的規模土地醫生還有儀器醫療設備等等我看需要幾十億當然以馬祖的規格目前金門厚重大概是241個我們一年厚重我們大概最近這三年了最近這三年金門是241我們是160"},{"start":905.768,"end":919.308,"text":"所以說那邊基本上的一些配備,像電腦斷層你給我了嘛這個問題,民眾的問題解決了你不然那邊照一次,這邊再照一次因為看不清楚嘛所以非常感謝我們衛福部長"},{"start":920.953,"end":947.87,"text":"有關部立醫院如果你不成立部立醫院的話起碼一些基本的配備需求神經內科神經外科還有我們腦袋現在心梗心臟心臟的問題也蠻多的後送過來心梗所以請部長能不能對這一方面再加強再注重一下,可不可以報告委員我幾件事情"},{"start":948.76,"end":971.267,"text":"我回答一下 第一個就是說有關電腦斷層其實同步那個時期澎湖醫院也是設立了128間的電腦斷層其實它是再加上現在的AI的一個處理可以把影片處理到非常的清楚所以請委員放心以後我們那邊的醫師朋友所照的"},{"start":972.655,"end":993.712,"text":"回到台灣絕對不需要再重複照重複照我再找你嘛好不好而且這可以電腦的傳遞資訊所以這個部分沒有問題至於說在強調連江縣馬祖這個部分尤其在連江縣我們從幾個角度第一個人才的培育醫療器材的一個加強"},{"start":995.98,"end":1020.465,"text":"還有整體的醫療費用的提升,其實都是給予馬祖、給予連江縣最大的努力我想這個部分在幾戶方面也是給予家層加了30%、50%我們兩個人不談政治,我們是兄弟就跟周越南一樣,我們也是好朋友,也是跟兄弟如兄如弟一樣"},{"start":1021.465,"end":1047.924,"text":"我也敬佩,我也不會跟你們爭一張嘴啦對這個連江縣的縣民長期的關心我們一定不管我在過去或者是在現在因為那邊太多醫師的朋友了我們一樣都希望他們有一個好的醫療環境來把我們的縣民照顧好謝謝部長好不好你請回,謝謝院長,那現在我要談到我的抱怨我要談到馬祖大俏"},{"start":1051.547,"end":1080.383,"text":"我還有應該算算不到三年的時間任期就要屆滿了我的年齡也應該差不多了這個馬祖大橋我每天都在關心這個事情從107年我們賴總統時任院長的時候我到行政院找他他馬上就把它批了,綜合規劃他就批了批了以後交通部速度也很快"},{"start":1081.038,"end":1098.404,"text":"折騰公路總局馬上做計畫110年其中報告就出來了送到行政院110年送到行政院以後不停的行政院秘書處還有國發會交通部這個公文一直轉來轉去那個效率實在"},{"start":1106.721,"end":1121.352,"text":"我非常驚人,抓了112年,一整年我不知道躺在誰的桌子上,我看不到也追蹤不到好,112年不見了後來報到113年到國發會國發會說送到英國"},{"start":1134.059,"end":1161.892,"text":"這個殷商奧亞納工程顧問公司做第三方的認證認證什麼呢認證技術有沒有問題認證技術有沒有問題那已經也回來了啊技術也沒問題啊我想賴總統時任院長的時候對我們馬祖大家有承諾喔他的攸關馬祖未來百年發展大街的橋是馬祖人應得的大橋案在自己的手中推動"},{"start":1162.677,"end":1182.789,"text":"一定全力促成這是他第一次的承諾然後賴總統也到縣地去會勘這個南北岸大橋大概3.1公里長他預計要8年完工賴總統也表示經費不是問題當然現在這個經費一直到288億我有一件事情我要拜託"},{"start":1194.031,"end":1219.296,"text":"這個公文輾轉來輾轉去那前幾天在院會的時候我也跟卓院長報告卓院長說一直沒看到這個案子我就非常震驚啊這麼重要的事情我在立法院每一年每一次都在總諮詢的時候向院長提出來"},{"start":1221.004,"end":1249.471,"text":"爭取南北岸跨海大橋也就是馬祖大橋但是院長說不知道沒看到公文我非常的驚訝我是說這個公文跑哪裡去了這麼重要的事情賴總統親口答應的事情而且院長我也口頭跟你報告好幾次但你就看不到這公文所以這公文一直在國發會交通部一直在秘書長行政院秘書處那邊一直在打轉"},{"start":1251.377,"end":1275.915,"text":"我想我不曉得什麼時候才能看到院長讓您看到我要親自拿去給你看嗎我跟委員報告這個工程當然是複雜而且挑戰性很大經過國內國外的工程顧問做了很多的評估目前委員剛剛所說經費達到288億其實上他已經再度修正已經提高到392億"},{"start":1280.765,"end":1300.586,"text":"金門機場評估的時候,我們馬祖機場剛剛評估的時候說要幾百億後來十幾億,十幾二十億我們馬祖南港機場做起來啦所以你不要聽那個啦,你要不想幫我做的話你說這個大橋啊,評估要兩千億因為它有南港機場存廢的問題北港機場要"},{"start":1304.13,"end":1323.201,"text":"修整建的問題,還有大橋的問題,整個合起來談我們還聽到有不同的聲音,主要是現在修正到392億所以我們必須要重新再修正392億誰修正的?是世西嗎?我不曉得是誰修正的?國發會有這樣的專家嗎?他沒有經過一個細部的設計,沒有經過建設計畫的啟動"},{"start":1330.097,"end":1351.725,"text":"他怎麼知道是那麼多億咧?所以我們現在看到的是這樣一個初步的一個概算所以我希望他重新院內還在重新再也不是用含的也不是用吹的一定要詳細精算部長您知道是300多億嗎?你聽過嗎?這個部分我們要回去再了解一下"},{"start":1352.288,"end":1375.407,"text":"不是現在了解,這是你公路總局在精算的公路總局委託4C工程設計公司在弄的4C是我們國內頂尖的這段時間確實整個工程的經費一直在上升委員長期一直關心這個做大橋所以我要跟你報告的是現在最新的發展跟進度不是我是說院長你聽誰講的,誰跟你報告的"},{"start":1377.809,"end":1398.776,"text":"哪一個單位跟你報告呢你回答我好不好哪一個單位跟你報告呢這個是在院內的公文我們綜合起來算他一個概算之後要有人算嘛總是要有人算啦1加1等於2總要有人算出來嘛不是我現在我們還在內部在要求重新核定這個數字為什麼會從288億會漲到390億我想這是馬祖人未來的夢他這個跟機場一定要結合"},{"start":1407.478,"end":1436.477,"text":"欄杆機場要把它停掉欄杆機場的跑道頭端太危險了我每次坐飛機回去我家裡面試試過我每次飛機降落我都怕尤其飛機重飛的時候多恐怖你知道嗎很恐怖你不要造成人命理由再來檢討問題就為時已晚太慢了我希望我身為立法委員我身為馬拉圖的立法委員我一定要在中央來發聲拜託懇求院長回去"},{"start":1437.741,"end":1460.178,"text":"馬上把他進入建設計畫讓他去做細部設計讓細部設計出來因為前面的綜合規劃已經花了1億5千萬了已經花了1億5千萬了所以我剛剛有報告北竿機場的改善這工程的規劃南竿機場的存廢問題南竿機場一定要這個馬祖大橋現在重新修正出來這麼392億的這個預算我們要把它做一個"},{"start":1467.967,"end":1495.21,"text":"你看前院長,蘇貞昌院長,他錢不是問題賴清德院長,錢不是問題390而已就390而已嘛你桃園一個地鐵,從空中變成地下,600億元你都花了,是不是?難道跟一張離島你不重視嗎?而且我們不是一次到位8年的時程,一年花三五十億,我其他的錢可以不要你這個財化法怎麼錢,我一毛錢都不要"},{"start":1495.99,"end":1522.212,"text":"拜託這個事情嘛,一年啊法律就是不是您要不要我們也可以說大家都不要,但是不行這樣說不要我不用也可以嘛,是不是我可以不用嗎?是不是我們陷入到一個非常不穩定的中央與地方的財政的劃分的一個狀態裡面下那如果這個合定的是300多億,那到底是中央還是地方我們不要爭議時啦,我們要爭千秋馬祖這個大橋啊,馬祖大橋"},{"start":1525.626,"end":1549.529,"text":"在朱院長手上批渴在賴總統手上核定我們會感謝你們的好不好我們馬祖真的你看我有介入政黨的問題嗎有跟你談政治的問題嗎我從來沒有我從來沒有有責難過行政院嗎也從來沒有好不好我想院長希望趕快進入建設計畫剛才我不停的質詢您就是說"},{"start":1550.478,"end":1579.968,"text":"你的消息從哪裡來的?你的數字是怎麼出來的?你講個五百億,講個一千億,你就把我砍臼了嘛,是不是?這樣是沒有道理,對我是不公平的啊你到底是誰算出來?如果世襲算出來,需要五百、一千億我給你下跪算啦我太口氣而已,是不是?但是不是這樣嘛你不聽國發會裡面的人,隨便算一下就出來了是不是?我不曉得他是哪裡算出來的這個拜託院長好不好"},{"start":1580.675,"end":1595.123,"text":"讓他進入建設計畫讓他進入建設計畫我卸任的話我死也瞑目啊對不對,我陳宇人有努力過,我有衝刺過我不要讓人家講我陳宇人你在騙人人家說我在騙人啊,說我在騙人啊"},{"start":1595.788,"end":1609.102,"text":"是不是,我沒有騙我的民眾,我很努力在工作我覺得今天把現在最新的發展跟委員報告,委員也可以跟鄉親說明,那目前我們再重新檢討那個數字是虛無縹緲了"},{"start":1611.485,"end":1626.992,"text":"是空中樓格誰算出來的委員我說明一下因為這個深度達到60米是全球也少見的所以我們送到英國去以後呢然後重新的檢討也同時重新檢討你花500萬給英國算你找英國誰算"},{"start":1628.593,"end":1648.64,"text":"你給他付薪水都不夠,他有到馬祖來過嗎?有看過水深是多深嗎?我上次有跟委員報告過,我們是建立在世新的規劃書上面的基礎因為他已經規劃得很完整我們只是去驗證這樣的一個深度,國內沒有經驗然後看看國外有沒有這樣的經驗你建設計畫花不了多少錢?院長"},{"start":1652.526,"end":1662.777,"text":"後面有多少錢?你把建設計畫裡面細色、詳細弄出來,那才是叫數字啊,是不是?你國發會有這樣的人才嗎?你海洋大學畢業,你就可以講說300億、500億、800億所以我們送到英國去,請英國的專家來寫證"},{"start":1674.629,"end":1689.325,"text":"英國人有講要400多億嗎?英國的專家至少他們比較有經驗看到國外的經驗,因為我們國內沒有這樣的經驗世新也沒有這樣的經驗所以我們要再次的驗證,我們追蹤世新的專業但是我們希望再經過第二次的驗證國內的技術"},{"start":1696.941,"end":1715.495,"text":"專家你不去聽,外國約量比較遠委員我們這樣是在保障馬祖元的安全五百萬是什麼?五百萬在英國眼中是什麼?是不是OB是什麼錢你知道嗎?所以拜託,院長這個幫我們進入建設計畫我想行政院秘書長今天也有來秘書長"},{"start":1716.26,"end":1743.528,"text":"拜託一下好不好你送上去給院長看嘛 送上去給總統批嘛好不好你不能在那邊跟我這樣子講包括我本人 主委 部長我們都有掌握這個狀況 新的發展你也可以講說五百億啊 一千億啊沒有沒有 這絕對不是空口亂講你國發會有沒有在那胡扯八道國發會有這樣的專家 你把專家拿出來給我看誰啊這是透過專業的一個評估 但是我就是從頭再來看這樣的評估到底準確如何"},{"start":1745.809,"end":1767.416,"text":"還有離島建設基金剩下8.86億我歷史跟陳玉珍委員還有楊耀維諸君你們說隨時撥補問你剩下8.86億你一年要花掉3億起碼吧你到現在怎麼辦很多案子到你們那邊可能就停擺了那離島基金就沒了嘛"},{"start":1769.008,"end":1793.222,"text":"委員我們現在是一年編列酒業的預算但是我們今年被砍掉了6%在大院你回去檢討一下,現在時間還剩下55秒小山通啊,拜託一下他們說團過來,我們又再阻止他團現在不來了馬祖街道冷冷清清啊真的所有旅館全部空蕩蕩的"},{"start":1794.451,"end":1822.014,"text":"民運部聊生所以請院長交通部有機會過去看一看陸委會這邊也謝謝我們邱主委很關心我們真的都給我們跟大陸盡量不要吵架了這樣弄下去我的心情被你們搞亂了我立委都不想幹了不要說罷免我最好今天就辭職算了我都幹不下去啦你知道嗎我都幹不下去啦院長你覺得陳遠勝這個兄弟"},{"start":1823.342,"end":1832.105,"text":"你要我留在立法院還是要我離開請你多支持我好不好請你今天結束以後多休息你多支持啊今天"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":755,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（17時49分）謝謝主席。是不是請卓院長？謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["陳委員雪生：院長辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員雪生：站了一天了，馬上下課了。"],["卓院長榮泰：還好、還好。"],["陳委員雪生：今天本席質詢有四個感謝、一個抱怨，我想感謝先來好了，感謝國防部，國防部從善如流，接受本席的建議，對馬祖地區的東引指揮部，還有莒光指揮部，在113年6月27號核定修正國軍地域加給，也就是由原來的第三級調整為第二級。東引跟莒光，我們韓院長也在莒光當過副連長，沒水、沒電，非常的辛苦，顧部長從善如流，謝謝您把它調整了，但現在問題來了，亮島跟高登的部分，院長沒去過亮島吧？我不曉得顧部長去過沒有？"],["顧部長立雄：我去過一個……"],["陳委員雪生：亮島有沒有去過？高登在北竿的旁邊，距離大陸是最近的一個地區……"],["顧部長立雄：是，應該去過高登。"],["陳委員雪生：高登大概只有幾十個人，亮島也只有幾十個官兵，兩個島大概不足100人，亮島尤其辛苦，我當縣長的時候，每次陪同地區指揮官去軍務視察的時候，他去視察、我去慰問，我一定到肉舖砍兩隻豬腳、豬腿送到那邊，因為他們都是吃罐頭，沒有肉吃，魚也要靠運補上去，亮島大概一、兩個禮拜才運補一次，因為那裡的土質都是岩盤，沒有土壤，所以都是用寶特瓶把空心菜種植在裡面，一層一層的，他們吃的青菜都是這樣來的，因為土地的問題，所以我在這邊建議，是不是能夠把高登、亮島由二級改為一級？三級改為二級，大概差距2,210塊，亮島跟高登只有幾十個人，是不是可以把它從二級調整到一級，這中間是差8,000塊？目前亮島跟高登的兵員，大家都不願意去，如果您的小孩在那邊當兵，你就會體諒到沒水、沒電的辛苦，幾十個人在那邊非常的辛苦。過去戰時的時候，我憶及48年八二三砲戰的10週年，老共要報復，我們在民國58年時是全島16歲以上的婦女、年輕人都不可以離境，而且槍彈全部到位，所以非常非常辛苦，面對對面一整塊山群非常的恐懼，平常每天晚上我們都要躲砲彈，內心非常恐懼，所以一直很怕戰爭爆發；現在兵兇戰危，我想卓院長也要跟賴總統報告，我們不要戰爭，我們希望和平……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛剛聽委員談到您為外島國軍官兵送了一些食物，我覺得我們應該為國軍弟兄向委員表示致謝，感謝委員……"],["陳委員雪生：有機會我希望我們總統……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就是要防衛自己，走向和平之道，才會表示應該加強我們自己的防衛能力。"],["陳委員雪生：我也希望院長有機會去激勵我們官兵的士氣，好不好？這個由二級改為一級的部分，是不是請顧部長研議一下？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，現在一級只有南沙，我們評估的結果認為高登、亮島跟南沙地區的交通狀況還是有明顯的差異……"],["陳委員雪生：只是交通差異？問題是阿兵哥到那邊就不能回來啊！"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，我想高登……"],["陳委員雪生：他不能回來啊！"],["顧部長立雄：高登、亮島之間的交通狀況跟南沙比起來，南沙還是艱困許多，因為南沙要回來……"],["陳委員雪生：他們的面積比南沙少很多，南沙還可以發電、種菜，亮島是沒有的，請部長回去查一下，好不好？我想只有幾十位官兵，是不是請部長回去研議，好不好？我並沒有說一定要怎麼樣，我是拜託部長。","第二個感謝就是北竿塘岐靶場，它原來是350公尺長，現在已經同意變更為75公尺，原來馬防部、馬祖防衛部研議第一個方案要5億，第二個方案要9億，其實不需要嘛！在北竿島上面不過五百多個兵員，你不用回答我多少，我當然心裡有數。500個兵員常訓的時間不多，不需要那麼大的一個靶場，其實一、兩年之內，他們現在是答應我們5年之內完成遷建，因為它這個在蛋黃的地區，而且毗鄰國中、國小、縣立醫院、安養中心、我們的運動場，所以部長，這方面要拜託您，2,000萬足夠了啦！現在用步槍的機會很少，我在馬祖住了幾十年，應該用飛彈的機會比較大一點，用不到步槍，但是步槍必須是我們的一個常備的項目，所以部長，這方面希望國防部回去在5年之內遷建，這個允諾你要實現，而且拜託，不要那麼大的靶場，靶場就是打個靶，75公尺而已，我也會打啊！我們在那邊也常常接受民防隊訓練，每年也是打好幾次，部長你說好嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想這件事情因為委員長期關心，我們現在一方面是調整射擊的週期，我想這點你也知道每週5天，就是只有禮拜一到禮拜五，時段的話就是8點半到……"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，我非常謝謝院長的關心。"],["顧部長立雄：和2點半到4點半。"],["陳委員雪生：本來今年元旦（1月1號）我要躺在靶場上給靶兵打，院長說我要保重身體……"],["顧部長立雄：謝謝委員的體諒。"],["陳委員雪生：那就託你的福好不好？我就不要被槍斃了……"],["顧部長立雄：另外，我們現在也做隔音牆，現在已經核撥了需求的預算金額，所以我們會在開標以後管制在90個工作天以內把它竣工，就能有效防止這個噪音。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，謝謝啦！繼續我的第三個感謝。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["陳委員雪生：馬祖飛高雄的航線，部長知道馬祖有多少個南部的官兵嗎？有九百多位。他們回家的路非常辛苦，不是坐船，就是坐飛機到松山機場，還要坐高鐵才能夠到達高雄。現在我們已經把這個航線打開了，當然我要感謝中油，油罐車也幫我們弄了，這是加油的部分；交通部、華航、華信、民航局大家都用了很大的心去做。院長有沒有聽說過哪一家航空公司，不管是花蓮也好、臺中也好、臺東也好、高雄也好要縣政府補貼的，有沒有聽過？"],["卓院長榮泰：縣政府補貼？交通部是有補貼啦！"],["陳委員雪生：但我們縣政府要補貼啊！因為人數不夠的話我們就要補貼，所以報告院長，這一點拜託。還有部長來了嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["陳委員雪生：固定航班的時間以後拜託不要由縣政府補貼好不好？馬祖已經沒什麼錢了，即使這一次，你看看這個財劃法通過，我一句話都沒講啊！其實我們一般的補助款、計畫型的補助款如果中央把我們扣下來，我們幾億還不夠用、還不夠分配，是不是？可能我們還要倒貼，對我們來講也不是好事，所以我幾乎沒有聲音，也沒有表示意見。院長、部長在這邊，拜託一下，不只是我們有發展觀光的需求，這裡面也是對我們阿兵哥等官兵生活上的照顧，兩位部長也都在，能不能協力完成？這個錢不要由縣政府出，請你們儘量去努力好不好？一個月、兩個月我們出得起，太久的話、長年下去的話，你曉得我們縣政府的財政分級是列在第五級、第六級，財政狀況非常吃緊、非常不好，拜託院長可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實其他的航線也都有補貼，您也都很清楚，因為你也是長期在關心這個議題。高雄的部分我們還是要看它整體的運量，現在華信航空其實很擔心乘載量不足它會虧很多，所以它會希望有補貼，但補貼的金額如果是乘載量很少的話，那個補貼的金額還真的是會滿大的。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，其實臺灣到馬祖這個航線，我們國家本來就有責任、有這個義務……"],["陳部長世凱：所以臺北到馬祖的部分……"],["陳委員雪生：要讓行的便利、行的安全，對不對？本來就有這個責任啊！為什麼高雄飛金門可以飛，飛馬祖不能飛呢？沒有道理嘛！飛澎湖也飛了，而且都是大的飛機在飛耶！我們現在一個小小的要求，這一點拜託部長回去研究一下，看看有什麼經費、有什麼樣的法令，如果法令有問題我們可以修改、可以修正嘛，好不好？讓縣政府能夠喘一口氣。還有一個是票價問題，前幾天已經開過會了，要報到交通部核定，這一點拜託部長，回去看到公文馬上批，為什麼呢？因為票價公布以後，華信還要排班，排班的問題還要請部長幫忙，據我了解，華信很像要排禮拜二的航班，但我們那邊除了發展觀光外，還要配合官兵休假，主要還是要讓阿兵哥回家的路更近，所以希望排在禮拜五，排在禮拜五的話，他們禮拜六、禮拜天就多了兩天，因為要精打細算，他們是有這樣的需求，能不能請部長幫忙一下？"],["陳部長世凱：好，報告委員，這件事您也協調好多次了，我們會儘量朝向委員的期望，不過，我們也需要考慮到華信航空整體的飛機量能，因為其他離島也有這樣的需求。"],["陳委員雪生：華信董事長原來是華航總經理，現在已經真除，是華航董事長，所以已經辭掉華信董事長的職務，現在華信董事長派了沒有我不知道，派誰我也不知道，最好能夠派陳雪生，我最高興了，那麼這個問題不用你解決，我就可以處理了。"],["陳部長世凱：是，是。"],["陳委員雪生：但是現在董事長換了，我真的搞不清楚，部長，能不能跟華信新董事長切磋一下，好不好？院長，你不要再笑啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：不是啦！立委不能兼董事長啦！"],["陳委員雪生：我兼董事長喔？"],["卓院長榮泰：立委不能兼啦！"],["陳委員雪生：不能兼，我辭掉啊！我辭掉……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，沒有，你是一個稱職的立委。"],["陳委員雪生：不行啦！聽說罷免要成功了，要罷免我欸！院長，我24小時夙夜匪懈為民服務，助理請了二十幾個，你不要看我們是馬祖，臺中、桃園、臺北到處都有我們的鄉親，我24小時為他們做便民服務，爭取經費也是第一名，所以拜託不要去談罷免的事情。"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有談罷免的事情。"],["陳委員雪生：沒有吼？拜託一下，因為說真的，我對馬祖鄉親非常熱愛，也熱愛這塊土地，剩下3年讓我做完，好不好？真的跟你懇切、懇切的拜託，好不好？OK，很少人在這邊談這個事情，我是第一個。","好，顧部長你請回，接下來是有關衛福部的事情。","第四個感謝是，衛福部部長上任以後，當然，他原來當立法委員時，辦公室在我隔壁，我們兩個如兄如弟，我跟他報告什麼事呢？電腦斷層。我們馬祖的緊急醫療後送，一年大概有160位，後送過來後有什麼問題呢？電腦斷層醫生看不清楚，上傳以後模模糊糊，要重新再照一次，所以我要求他、拜託他給我一個800劑量的斷層，後來他說部立醫院全部都是一百多切的，不能單獨給馬祖，那我也OK，不過他也核定了！部長，謝謝你啦！雖然你沒有做到你當立委時答應我的800切，當了部長以後，換了位子腦袋也換了，不過我不怪你，因為大家要一視同仁，要公平嘛！問題是現在很多民眾提出希望縣立醫院改為部立醫院，而部立醫院要有部立醫院的規模、土地、醫生，還有儀器、醫療設備等等，我看需要幾十億，當然，以馬祖的規格來講，最近這3年，金門一年後送大概是241位，我們是160位，在基本配備上，譬如電腦斷層你給我們了，民眾的這個問題解決了，不然那邊照一次，這邊還要再照一次，因為看不清楚嘛，所以非常感謝衛福部部長。至於部立醫院的問題，如果你不成立部立醫院，起碼也要有一些基本配備需求，像神經內科、神經外科，還有腦袋方面的、心梗的，現在心臟問題也滿多的，需要後送過來，請部長在這方面再加強、再注重，可不可以？"],["邱部長泰源：報告委員，幾件事情回答，第一個就是有關電腦斷層，其實那個時期澎湖醫院也是同步設立了128切的電腦斷層，再加上現在AI的處理，可以把影片處理到非常清楚，所以請委員放心，以後那邊醫師朋友所照的回到臺灣絕對不須再重複照……"],["陳委員雪生：如果要重複照我就再找你，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：而且這個可以用電腦傳遞，所以這個部分沒有問題。至於連江縣馬祖的這個部分，我們從幾個角度，第一個，人才的培育、醫療器材的加強，還有整體醫療費用的提升，其實都是給予馬祖、給予連江縣最大的努力。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：我想這個部分在給付方面也都是加成加了30%，甚至是50%……"],["陳委員雪生：部長，我們兩個人不談政治，我們是兄弟，就跟卓院長一樣，我們也是好朋友，也是如兄如弟 ……"],["邱部長泰源：我很敬佩委員對連江縣縣民長期的關心，不管過去或者是現在，因為那邊有太多我的醫師朋友了，我們一樣都希望他們有一個好的醫療環境，把我們的縣民照顧好。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝部長，你請回。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員雪生：院長，現在我要談談我的抱怨了，我要談的是馬祖大橋，算一算我的任期應該不到3年的時間就要屆滿了，我的年齡應該也差不多了，我每天都在關心馬祖大橋這個事情，從107年賴總統時任院長的時候，我到行政院找他，他馬上就把它批了，綜合規劃他就批了。批了以後，交通部速度也很快，責成公路總局馬上做計畫，110年期中報告就出來了，送到行政院。110年送到行政院以後，從行政院秘書處、國發會、交通部，這個公文一直不停地轉來轉去，效率實在是非常驚人，轉了112年一整年，我不知道躺在誰的桌子上，我看不到，也追蹤不到。","112年不見了，後來放到113年才到國發會，國發會說送到英商奧雅納工程顧問公司做第三方認證，認證什麼呢？認證技術有沒有問題。已經也回來了，技術也沒問題了，時任院長的賴總統對我們馬祖大橋有承諾，他說攸關馬祖未來百年發展大計的橋是馬祖人應得的，大橋案在自己的手中推動，一定全力促成，這是他第一次的承諾。然後賴總統也到現地去會勘，這個南北竿大橋大概有3.1公里長，預計要8年完工，賴總統也表示經費不是問題，當然現在這個經費已經到288億了。","我有一件事情要拜託院長，這個公文輾轉來輾轉去，前幾天在院會的時候我也跟卓院長報告，卓院長說一直沒看到這個案子，我就非常震驚了，這麼重要的事情，我在立法院每一年、每一次都在總質詢的時候向院長提出來，爭取南北竿跨海大橋，也就是馬祖大橋，但是院長說不知道、沒看到公文，我非常地驚訝，我是說這個公文跑哪裡去了？這麼重要的事情，賴總統親口答應的事情，而且院長，我也口頭跟你報告好幾次了，但就是看不到這個公文，這個公文在國發會、交通部、行政院秘書處那邊一直在打轉，我不曉得什麼時候才能讓院長看到，我要親自拿去給你看嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，這個工程當然是複雜，而且挑戰性很大……"],["陳委員雪生：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：經過國內、國外的工程顧問做了很多的評估……"],["陳委員雪生：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員剛剛所說目前經費達到288億……"],["陳委員雪生：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：其實它已經再度修正了，已經提高到392億……"],["陳委員雪生：三百多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：392億。"],["陳委員雪生：金門機場評估的時候，我們馬祖機場剛剛評估，說要幾百億……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們現在……"],["陳委員雪生：後來十幾、二十億，我們馬祖南竿機場做起來了啦！所以你不要聽那個啦！你要不想幫我做的話，你說這個大橋評估要2,000億，那我就沒轍了啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為它有南竿機場存廢的問題、北竿機場要整建的問題，還有這個大橋的問題，這整個要合起來談……"],["陳委員雪生：院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還聽到有不同的聲音，主要是現在它修正到392億，所以我們必須要重新再……"],["陳委員雪生：三百多少億？"],["卓院長榮泰：392億。"],["陳委員雪生：誰修正的？是世曦嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我現在……"],["陳委員雪生：我不曉得是誰修正的？國發會有這樣的專家嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：要算啦！它現在……"],["陳委員雪生：他沒有經過一個細部的設計、沒有經過建設計畫的啟動，他怎麼知道是那麼多億呢？他怎麼知道要三百多億？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們現在看到的是這樣一個初步的概算，我希望他重新……"],["陳委員雪生：院長，這個工程不是用喊的……"],["卓院長榮泰：院內還在重新……"],["陳委員雪生：不是用喊的，也不是用吹的，一定要詳細計算。"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，就是有這個數據啊！"],["陳委員雪生：部長，您知道是三百多億嗎？你聽過嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：這個部分我們要回去再了解一下。"],["陳委員雪生：不是現在了解耶！這是你公路總局在精算的，公路總局委託世曦工程設計公司在弄的……"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員……"],["陳委員雪生：世曦是我們國內頂尖的耶！"],["陳部長世凱：這段時間確實整個工程的經費一直在往上跑……"],["陳委員雪生：院長，我請教你，您說的三百多億是誰算出來的？"],["卓院長榮泰：委員長期一直關心這座大橋，所以我要跟你報告的是現在最新的發展及進度……"],["陳委員雪生：不是，我是說，院長，你聽誰講的？誰跟你報告的？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在資料……"],["陳委員雪生：哪一個單位跟你報告的？你回答我……"],["卓院長榮泰：資料上顯示就是如此……"],["陳委員雪生：你回答我，好不好？哪一個單位跟你報告的？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個是在院內的公文，我們綜合起來算，有一個概算之後……"],["陳委員雪生：總是要有人算嘛！總是要有人算啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：對，我不可能去……"],["陳委員雪生：1加1等於2，總要有人算出來，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我們內部還再要求重新核定這個數字，為什麼會從288億漲到392億……"],["陳委員雪生：院長，這是馬祖人未來的夢，這個與機場一定要結合，南竿機場要停掉，南竿機場的跑道頭端太危險了！我每次坐飛機回去，我家裡面失事過，每次飛機降落，我都怕，尤其飛機重飛的時候多恐怖，你知道嗎？很恐怖耶！你不要造成人命以後再來檢討問題就為時已晚，太慢了！我身為立法委員，我身為馬祖的立法委員，我一定要在中央來發聲，拜託！懇求院長回去馬上把它進入建設計畫，讓它去做細部設計，讓世曦去細部設計出來，因為前面的綜合規劃已經花了1億5,000萬了，已經花了1億5,000萬了。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，所以我剛剛跟委員報告，北竿機場改善工程的規劃、南竿機場的存廢問題……"],["陳委員雪生：南竿機場一定要廢掉，為什麼呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：和馬祖大橋現在重新修正出來392億的這個預算，我們要把它做一個……"],["陳委員雪生：你看前院長蘇貞昌院長說錢不是問題，賴清德院長也講錢不是問題，392億就392億嘛！桃園一個地鐵從空中變成地下要600億耶！你都花了，是不是？難道偏鄉離島你不重視嗎？而且我們不是一次到位，8年的時程，一年花30、50億，其他的錢我可以不要，財劃法什麼錢我一毛錢都不要，拜託這個事情一年……"],["卓院長榮泰：法律不是您要不要，我們也可以說，大家都不要，但是不行這樣說不要……"],["陳委員雪生：那你給我，我還給你，我不用也可以，是不是？我可以不用，是不是？我沒有跟你去爭……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們現在就是陷入到一個非常不穩定的中央與地方財政劃分的狀態裡面……"],["陳委員雪生：院長……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果這個核定了，是三百多億，那到底是中央還是地方要……"],["陳委員雪生：我們不要爭一時啦！我們要爭千秋……"],["卓院長榮泰：是、是、是。"],["陳委員雪生：馬祖大橋在卓院長手上批可，在賴總統手上核定，我們會感謝你們的，好不好？你看我有介入政黨的問題嗎？有跟你談政治的問題嗎？我從來沒有，我從來沒有，有責難過行政院嗎？也從來沒有，好不好？院長，希望趕快進入建設計畫，剛才我不停質詢你說你的消息從哪裡來？你的數字是怎麼出來的？你講個500億、講個1,000億，你就把我處理掉了，是不是？這樣是沒有道理，對我是不公平的啊！到底是誰算出來的？如果世曦算出來需要500億、1,000億，我給你下跪，算了，我嘆一口氣而已，是不是？但是不是這樣嘛！不能你國發會裡面的人隨便算一下就出來了，是不是？我不曉得他是哪裡算出來的，這個拜託院長好不好？讓它進入建設計畫。我卸任的話，我死也瞑目啊！我陳雪生有努力過，我有衝刺過，我不要讓人家講：陳雪生，你在騙人。人家說我在騙人，我沒有騙我的選民，我沒有，我很努力在工作喔！"],["卓院長榮泰：我今天把現在最新的發展跟委員報告，委員也可以跟鄉親說明，目前我們在重新檢討這個……"],["陳委員雪生：最新的發展，那個數字是虛無飄渺的，是空中樓閣，誰算出來的？"],["卓院長榮泰：請主委說明。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我說明一下，因為這個深度達到60米，是全球也少見……"],["陳委員雪生：我知道，你不是這個的技術專家。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我們送到英國去以後，重新檢討，也同時重新檢討預算……"],["陳委員雪生：你花500萬給英國算，你找英國誰算？你給他付薪水都不夠啦！他有到馬祖來過嗎？有看過水深是多深嗎？有看過我們的……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我上次有跟委員報告過，我們是建立在世曦這個規劃書的基礎上面，因為它已經規劃得很完整，我們只是去驗證，這樣的一個深度，國內沒有經驗，看看國外有沒有這樣的經驗。"],["陳委員雪生：不是，你進入建設計畫嘛！進入建設計畫花不了多少錢啊，院長，花不了多少錢嘛！你在建設計畫裡面把細設詳細弄出來，那才叫數字啊！是不是？你不能就由國發會，你誰啊？國發會有這樣的人才嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以這樣的一個發展，就是我們……"],["陳委員雪生：你不能講你是海洋大學畢業，你就可以講說300億、500億、800億，隨便你講……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我們送到英國去，請英國的專家來協助……"],["陳委員雪生：英國有講嗎？英國人有講要四百多億嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：至少英國的專家他們比較有經驗看到國外的經驗，因為我們國內沒有這樣的經驗，世曦也沒有這樣的經驗。"],["陳委員雪生：那以後就不要世曦了嘛！你要世曦幹什麼？世曦可以裁撤啦！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我們要再次的驗證，我們尊重世曦的專業，但是我們希望再經過第二次的驗證。"],["陳委員雪生：國內的技術專家你不去聽，外國的月亮比較圓，聽他的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我們這樣是在保障馬祖人的安全。"],["陳委員雪生：你們花了500萬耶！500萬是什麼啊？500萬在英國人眼中是什麼？歐幣是什麼錢你知道嗎？所以拜託院長，這個幫我們進入建設計畫，我想行政院秘書長今天也有來，秘書長，拜託一下，好不好？你送上去給院長看嘛！送上去給總統批嘛！好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：今天跟委員報告……"],["陳委員雪生：不能在這邊跟我這樣子講……"],["卓院長榮泰：包括我本人、主委、部長，我們都有掌握這個狀況、新的發展，我們都知道。"],["陳委員雪生：院長你也可以講說500億、1,000億啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有、沒有，這個絕對不是空口亂講。"],["陳委員雪生：你聽國發會在那邊胡說八道，國發會有這樣的專家，你把專家找出來給我看，誰啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是透過專業的一個評估，但是我就是從頭再來看這樣評估到底準確如何。"],["陳委員雪生：我還會問。","還有離島建設基金現在剩下8.86億，我歷次跟陳玉珍委員、楊曜委員質詢，你們說隨時撥補，問題是你剩下8.86億，你一年起碼要花掉3億，到現在怎麼辦？很多案子到你們那邊可能就停擺了，那離島基金就沒了嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我們現在是一年編列9億的預算，但是我們今年在大院被砍掉了6%。"],["陳委員雪生：你回去檢討一下。","現在時間還剩下55秒，小三通拜託一下，他們說團過來，我們又在阻止他，團現在不來了，馬祖街道冷冷清清，真的，所有的旅館全部空蕩蕩，民不聊生。請院長、交通部有機會過去看一看，也謝謝陸委會邱主委很關心我們，真的多給我們……跟大陸盡量不要吵架，哎呀！這樣弄下去，我的心情被你們搞亂了，我立委都不想幹了，不要說罷免，我最好今天就辭職算了，我都幹不下去了，你知道嗎？我都幹不下去了。院長，你覺得陳雪生這個兄弟，你要我留在立法院，還是要我離開？請你多支持我好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：請你今天結束以後多休息。"],["陳委員雪生：啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：今天結束以後啦！多休息。"],["陳委員雪生：今天結束以後當然要休息啊！"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝我們都愛的陳雪生委員，謝謝你的質詢。也謝謝卓院長、各部會首長列席，謝謝。","報告院會，本日排定質詢的委員均已質詢完畢，我們非常感謝卓院長、鄭副院長、各位閣員一起列席答詢，也要謝謝現場的王正旭委員、林月琴委員一起參與今天的總質詢。","現在作以下決定：下次會議繼續進行施政方針及施政報告之質詢。","現在繼續處理復議案。本院民進黨黨團針對第4次會議報告事項第六案、第三十九案至第四十二案之決定提出復議，請公決案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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收穫滿滿現在可能買了一些青菜 買了一些肉就發現一千塊都不見了我想要先請教 這個部長有上來請問漲價漲那麼多對人民如何解釋謝謝 我覺得也不只山高啦我們經濟成長率也很高"},{"start":192.418,"end":203.601,"text":"我們的GDP國家生產總額26兆也很高我們的股票也很高你可以繼續講沒事我認為針對問題我覺得民眾想要了解預算新高漲價也新高我認為說我認定在進步可是我必須對辛苦的蔡蘭族辛苦的很多的人民針對"},{"start":216.545,"end":229.771,"text":"只有漲 薪水不漲 比如說公務員只漲3%台鐵為什麼漲了這麼多 客運為什麼漲了那麼多您知道台鐵已經30年沒有漲票價了嗎我了解 可是我還是要 政府應該要來補貼這些辛苦的人我們率先前幾年就提出TPAS"},{"start":237.642,"end":250.026,"text":"短程的固定的這些乘客用T-Bus對這些漲價對他影響是最少的而且我們T-Bus又有新的2.0版對常客又有一些新的規劃其實院長我都非常認同你說的"},{"start":253.027,"end":271.377,"text":"可是我的建議就是說可不可以一次我認為漲超過3%的就是要還漲我不是說政府不能漲價可是你一次漲26%或是漲得比人民的加薪的幅度漲得多人民的痛苦指數就會增高就像你講的GDP成長也沒有成長20幾%"},{"start":273.238,"end":301.524,"text":"所以我這一說 院長我希望的是說可以苦民所苦我沒有說您準確或錯只是反映人民的心聲如果台鐵反映成本的話絕對不死漲這些幅度我們只要請部長認為他就是應該緩緩的漲調整到合理的票價就可以所以我認為成長百分之二十幾沒有說明原因來 部長請說明你要說明原因其實說明了很多之後可以私下向您報告那你有沒有現在直接檢查好不好"},{"start":302.404,"end":326.656,"text":"第一您剛剛所說的GDP只漲3%或者是薪水只漲3%但過去30年薪水漲了幾%您有算過嗎部長你要針對問題回答問你的是台鐵為什麼要漲票價你沒有回答你說過去到現在30年沒有漲它的成本已經成長非常多而且他們的薪資也調漲了意思就是說只要過去沒有漲的你就可以是漲那麼多那剛剛院長講的還漲你有聽清楚嗎"},{"start":328.847,"end":356.756,"text":"院長說全市台鐵票價漲26%就造成人民的痛苦啊報告委員您大概很少搭台鐵也很少在通勤您不曉得現在只要用T-pass基本上是漲不到不管台鐵漲幾趴所以您的意思是說對通勤的民眾來說人民在台鐵票價漲二十幾趴人民無感覺得政府漲26%是OK的通勤的民眾不會受到影響您沒有在通勤所以您大概不曉得"},{"start":358.14,"end":363,"text":"那個我跟等一下等一下主席稍等一下這樣子質詢的方式可以嗎"},{"start":363.843,"end":390.545,"text":"沒問題,呼籲一下官員不要反諮詢好不好請委員諮詢之後再回答我是為了民眾來講,你講到我個人身上這就是非常不好的示範好不好好,那如果您不願意回答漲價的原因只要用過去的歷史漲價的原因我剛剛講很多了你要講的是漲價不是不是他的服務也必須要成長,在他的員工的薪水必須要成長你要講的原因是說你這樣子的漲價,人民就"},{"start":390.965,"end":411.072,"text":"不會有感覺,然後你的意思是說台鐵就不會虧損嗎我會減少通勤民眾的衝擊,他們幾乎不會有衝擊到尤其現在有很多台鐵它的成本都一樣就是因為台鐵過去都沒有漲所以您當這個部長來,你看到這個問題就把這二三十年來的一起漲意思就是這樣,好,沒有,你有解釋我就可以了好,那我們看下一頁"},{"start":413.68,"end":437.721,"text":"好所以我希望讓院長知道這個我不希望我們的總統變成漲價總統那卓榮泰院長是三高的內閣那現在這張圖片是民眾跟我檢舉傳給我的他說院長很辛苦現在台灣不管國際國內都遇到嚴重的這個一些影響他不希望說我們的院長在週末的時候是參加"},{"start":438.963,"end":452.259,"text":"類似政治尤其是有相關罷免的宣講活動企圖要罷免在野黨的立委所以我拿到這張照片請院長你是不是覺得這張照片不是很適當"},{"start":453.857,"end":481.616,"text":"這張照片加油很適當啊我的意思是說全民罷免這個舊章話這個章者這樣的照片適當嗎來聽的民眾他身上有什麼樣的標誌衣服他表達什麼意願我們尊重所有來參加活動的所以你的意思是說這個公務員員沒有這個遵守行政中立的這樣的做法我們絕對遵守行政中立那你請問你在場知不知道這是有關於相關罷免的活動我不是"},{"start":482.691,"end":510.443,"text":"我們是做政策的宣導好 那我會跟那個人民反映說你是做政策的宣導委員長在新北的那一場 歡迎委員來現場聽到現場聽 有沒有罷免的活動我們有沒有談到等一下 院長我們都尊重人民尋死任何的權利可是我認為行政官員不應該參與這樣的活動而且人民應該要了解說這是怎麼樣的活動比如說你前一場活動就知道了你下一場活動如果還去的話"},{"start":511.423,"end":537.073,"text":"我認為第一場活動你不知道那我們還可以這樣你的幕僚這麼多下一場如果還是這樣的活動我認為民主社會國家不應該行政首長來去參加這個去罷免在野黨立委意圖要就是我們努力想要監督政府的活動我認為如果有這樣的活動的話沒有我這是人民檢舉提供過的照片請院長深思我也沒有說第一場跟第二場聽的人都很清楚我在講總預算的問題"},{"start":538.433,"end":561.714,"text":"我就說 因為我在這裡講 委員有些聽不懂到那邊講 民 群眾 人民都聽得懂好 可是我要跟院長報告一次這樣的照片就是人民提供給我的他認為這樣是很不適當的請院長三思好 下一頁委員可以來現場拿一張反罷免的那也許也可以被拍成照片我們不要造成社會的衝突跟對立啊好不好我們在這裡做政策的宣導我們接受任何公開的好 那接下來我必須要講"},{"start":563.574,"end":580.216,"text":"這個其實最近大家也討論很多尤其現在剛剛講的很多台鐵票價漲國道客運漲這些東西其實很重要的一個點是電力的問題那我們一直在跟其實我們一直在跟院長跟我們經濟部的郭部長也上來了"},{"start":581.357,"end":586.063,"text":"在講說其實台電113年的稅前虧損高達411億元已經營運連三年虧損那今年114年台電孔繼續虧損那我們必須要講的是台113年的決算已經顯示了"},{"start":599.218,"end":621.528,"text":"每度電的燃料成本已經大減20%為什麼台電還是繼續虧損呢根據清大的一個教授葉教授葉忠光的分析其實這我之前也跟院長報告過了其實問題就出在台電外購電力的價格遠高於台電自發電力的價格我們可以看到這一張在112年的時候"},{"start":625.472,"end":636.081,"text":"台電燃煤的發電成本是3.4%基本上來講它都會加價跟我們的民營業者去買電它在112點的時候是加20%意思就是說它多給了民營電廠20%的獲利"},{"start":643.007,"end":663.887,"text":"結果想不到113年的時候大家可以看到我們台電的自發電力只剩2.5代表就是因為國際燃油價格下降讓我們的台電的燃煤的發電成本比較少可是沒有想到台電居然跟我們的民營電廠買燃煤的時候加價變成34%"},{"start":666.52,"end":675.997,"text":"這意思是什麼呢?當時我就請教很多台電的好朋友問他說是不是這個我們所有台電的這個外購的自營廠商他沒有去"},{"start":677.503,"end":699.402,"text":"依照國際能源下降的部分去給台電相關應的節省這樣的成本所以顧名思義我要跟部長跟院長講的是難道台電就要用這樣的高價跟民營電廠買電嗎是不是可以請部長回答這個應該你要去看他們當初所訂下來的這個合約內容"},{"start":701.744,"end":730.467,"text":"合約內容怎麼樣規範我想我們的國營機構他必須要按照訂約的內容去執行所以不一定是向委員所指證的是故意去加價去跟他買這合約上面所寫的我們必須要遵法所以我們會依照合約的內容去進行當然也許有委員所看到的這個現象不過這個我們回去以後會充分的檢討"},{"start":731.768,"end":759.625,"text":"所以謝謝部長上次已經跟你報告過了我們希望說台電基本上盡量用自發的電力我們委託民營電廠的時候應該給他合理的利潤而不是讓這個民營電廠可以賺那麼多的錢那第二個我們來看看我剛也跟大家報告在113年的時候因為國際能源下降所以所有的這個台電的自力發電它的價格都比112年度的來低"},{"start":760.438,"end":787.326,"text":"可是我們看到風力發電跟太陽能光電尤其是風力發電我們自發電力是4.4可是我們113年外購是6.59的成本我們這個加價了將近50%跟民營電廠來去收電費就是我要跟這個部長講的是說可以讓民營電廠賺那麼多錢嗎那我們後續可以得知的是"},{"start":788.547,"end":813.281,"text":"我們了解這個台電的這個短購物價短購電費的這個整個的公式過去以來就是因為這些風力發電的民營業者他針對台電所提出的這些的電力的政策他不能接受所以就從103年以後就用了一個前10年跟後10年不同的電費收費的方式所以才早知台電去買一度的綠電"},{"start":814.221,"end":833.53,"text":"有時候6塊錢甚至7塊錢這樣的狀況可是這個問題到108年以後因為台電的這個電力的政策改變了以後沒有人要跟台電做生意以及未來本席所擔心的是台電未來只能購買到昂貴的綠電等到這些綠電業者"},{"start":835.892,"end":854.927,"text":"幫他過去天的前十年跟後十年他要到後十年要賣便宜的電的時候比如說一對電3.5、4塊的時候他那時候會跟台電回額就像剛剛郭部長講的他不會依照合約規定來走所以台電過去來講只能買到高額的綠電請問這個郭部長"},{"start":857.694,"end":886.856,"text":"最近的這個牽引的廠商是104年即將在114年10年就要到期了請問他會不會繼續跟賣電給台電綠電業者會繼續賣電給台電嗎我們基本上要去看他們當初所訂的合約到底是怎麼樣我想我們政府一定就是要依法來這個進行他的這個這個合約的內容那所以如果這個委員您認為他是不合理的"},{"start":887.864,"end":914.932,"text":"我們來考慮我們來還是要在法的框架下來尋求解決的辦法當然我現在在督導這個台電的時候我都跟他們講他要從各種的方式去考慮他的這個成本的競爭力如果我今天買的這個電價格比較高的話那我可以從其他的一樣的這個再生能源我可以從其他地方去買我不一定要跟他買"},{"start":915.652,"end":928.458,"text":"它如果太貴我就不可能因為這個影響到我整個的台股的競爭力過去十年這些綠能業者就像之前跟您報告的這些綠能業者都賺飽飽一度店都賣到賣給台電六七塊"},{"start":931.079,"end":950.886,"text":"結果現在10年到他們之前賣貴的電的時候已經結束了他們要賣便宜的電去做Balance的時候這些綠電業者通基本上都會跟台電選擇解約把這些電賣給外面的比如說大型的上數位公司來去賺取更多的電的這些收入那台電不是就變成"},{"start":954.08,"end":971.929,"text":"這個這個冤大頭了嗎而且現在就我所知啦現在你們還在計算這個台電所稱的叫做分手費在計算的時候還沒有一個正確的公式來去來去做未來的這個檢討報告委員這個部分的話就表示他是違約的如果我們訂的約是20年"},{"start":973.59,"end":992.589,"text":"那麼前面高後面低但是他後面不執行的話我想這個一定有可能我要請教一下那這樣可能部長這樣的分手會有算出來的嗎他可以違約不可能那違約我們應該是說這些違約業者無法違約嗎他有可能違約但是我們一定會處分他"},{"start":994.175,"end":1016.042,"text":"他一定會處分他可是處分他他是以利益為導向如果你處分他不夠重所以在這邊我也拜託部長是不是可以給他這個懲罰上的委員他的店是要透過我們台電的電網才有辦法賣給他想要賣的客人所以我就是不讓他執行的話他也沒辦法"},{"start":1016.502,"end":1039.158,"text":"好那我希望部長因為現在整個台電跟民營業者這些綠電公司過去賺那麼多錢現在其實還沒有討論出了一個如何未來解約的一個公式跟計算方式那我也希望說部長可以拿出guards就像你講的應該用懲罰性的方式讓他們繼續跟台電合作來去賣便宜的綠電給台電讓台電不要虧損"},{"start":1041.124,"end":1048.178,"text":"不然的話我們前十年已經供養他們那麼久了後十年連現在沒有辦法拿出Gas的話我認為台電只會繼續虧損了"},{"start":1051.104,"end":1074.369,"text":"好所以在這邊我要跟院長跟部長講的我認為立法院他在114年的時候刪減掉給台電的補助一千億不是沒有道理我們是希望說不是不補貼台電這一千億是我們希望說過去台灣人民已經拿了三千億的納稅錢補助了台電原因是很單純就是因為能源"},{"start":1075.849,"end":1103.788,"text":"現在戰爭的能源價格上漲那如果你現在在補貼台電你沒有一個正確能源政策難道不是把人民的納稅險這一千億拿去補貼綠電業者以及民間業者嗎報告員是這個樣子就是說我們當初為了要補助我們這個國內的國人用電所以我們一共花了六千億但是這個大院給我們只有三千億"},{"start":1105.256,"end":1111.325,"text":"所以我們實際上還是有3000億所以我們在討論的時候我們在經濟委員會專業的經濟委員會裡面討論過的時候這1000億他只刪了30億但是我們來到大院以後整個被拿掉"},{"start":1120.782,"end":1147.599,"text":"如果你們有提出更好可以解決我們立法院一些委員的問題的時候就像我講的我們不是不願意補助台電是因為不願意補助台電就像我講的用高價給民營業者或是高價買綠電而且未來只要台電這些綠電業者跟台電解約台電目前沒有辦法拿出一個對台電有利的解約方式報告委員我們的補助只是減少我們財務上面的負擔"},{"start":1148.82,"end":1176.112,"text":"只是減少我們財務的負擔並不是來補助我們台電在運作上面的虧損我們講過了我們會再努力從我們現在的運作的方式包括我們的商業模式包括我們的這個創電的方式包括我們所有的行政包括我們的運籌模式從各方面來精進所以我們會努力但是我們在請大佑同意我們1000億是在"},{"start":1178.813,"end":1207.105,"text":"消除我們過去補助同國人的這個財務的這個方面因為我們還是要去借錢我們要借錢來彌補所以那個利息的部分我們大概增加了好幾十億的這個利息所以如果大院給我們補助讓我們財務能夠更健全政府已經補貼台電利息也蠻多的好不好好不好我們就接下來講好那接下來齁需要說部長也還是要提出具體的政策跟立法院來報告好那我們下一頁"},{"start":1209.124,"end":1236.729,"text":"好 接下來我們要請教院長的部分這是我一直很重視的一個問題我們台灣發展那麼多的綠電 綠能有關於這個太陽能板以及這個風力發電的這個大型的風液板其實現在在大家在台灣的認定說這些東西未來是台灣積極要做的事其實我們有認同可是我要跟院長報告的是過去從108年到113年過去六年來我們有五家的回收處理那個"},{"start":1237.449,"end":1255.482,"text":"太陽能板的業者處理了將近一千噸公噸的太陽能板在未來的即將的七年即將會有一萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板再加七年十四年總共有十萬噸的廢棄的太陽能板"},{"start":1255.962,"end":1270.038,"text":"可是現在讓人民沒辦法接受的是這樣我們的理解就是太陽能板應該是要可以回收的可是現在這五家處理業者他們不是做回收他們是做處理將近或者是報廢的這樣的舉動所以而且尤其是"},{"start":1270.959,"end":1295.415,"text":"太陽能板過去有跟院長報告它過去就是因為這個玻璃跟這個EVA的這個膜它黏的痕跡沒有辦法分離所以我知道說現在環境部也積極在努力來做整個的太陽能板的一個處理可是到現在目前來講是沒有辦法處理的也沒有辦法回收的只能做報廢的這樣的動作是不是請院長或者是我們部長或"},{"start":1296.576,"end":1323.374,"text":"可以來解釋一下 這樣子未來這麼多的廢棄物過去喔 尤其是過去除了這一千噸政府有補助的只有一百多噸沒有補助的 給這些回收業者的不曉得丟到哪裡去我收到消息啊 就是給一些民間業者拿去跟其他的玻璃業 全部混在一起拿去丟這樣子不會造成臺灣未來的這個整個的環保的而且垃圾的危機嗎"},{"start":1324.876,"end":1342.693,"text":"報告委員我想我們update一下現在科技的狀況太陽能回收的話我們早就已經有看到這樣的一個問題所以工業技術研究院已經完全開發出來可以計轉處理太陽能廢棄物的技術"},{"start":1347.434,"end":1367.894,"text":"好,謝謝部長。部長,為了了解中研院有去做這樣的事情,他也有不管是計轉或是做一些授權給相關的民間業者。可是就我了解,其實你會後是不是可以提供給我,現在是不是有在生產相關的產品?就我得知是完全沒有。"},{"start":1368.655,"end":1379.063,"text":"而且現在整個政府單位其實也沒有辦法掌握有生產多少的狀況所以現在是沒有辦法生產的狀況所以就算中原業有在做如果沒有辦法生產"},{"start":1380.577,"end":1405.946,"text":"報告委員其實第一個是我們國內的太陽能板是從2000年開始用到2010年是因為當時推動百萬陽光屋頂所以那時候開始多了很多我們是2018年19年才訂定等於是太陽能板必須要付那個費用清除處理的費用所以現在我們現在處理的是以前很舊的那目前來看的話的確因為那時候成本不符所以大概只能做這樣的用途"},{"start":1406.306,"end":1429.124,"text":"但是因為現在有五家 未來還有幾家正在審核當中我們希望他們可以全循環的再利用因為那個裡面不是廢棄物是一個很好的資產 還可以再循環的所以目前現在還不是最高量的時候所以委員不用擔心預計是2039年是最高量的時候一年大概會有10萬噸的產出那我們預計現在的量可以到13萬噸所以委員這個問題不是很大"},{"start":1431.185,"end":1458.26,"text":"謝謝彭部長那我們看下一張圖就這張圖這張圖是這個民間的業者給我的這張圖他說原本希望說現在環境部其實有在努力我們也知道也有補貼這些的回收業者一頓是兩萬三千塊可是想不到在我了解有很多民間業者跟我反映說這些回收業者拿到了補助我們看上一頁回收業者在上一頁"},{"start":1460.796,"end":1474.691,"text":"太陽能這個光電廠設置了光電板了以後等它到了這個年限了以後會有請這個清除業者去清除然後環境部會收到這些繳費的太陽能光電業者的繳費資金以後來去做補貼清除業者"},{"start":1477.975,"end":1500.613,"text":"那補貼完了以後會到處理機構就是我剛剛講這五家處理機構這五家處理機構一頓現在都拿這個政府兩萬三的這個補貼費然後政府有去集合可是沒有想到這個環境部的集合我不知道是環境部被騙了還是怎麼樣他的集合只是做一般就是做一個自治化的集合所以我們來看一下下兩個月拜託"},{"start":1502.438,"end":1518.894,"text":"左邊這一頁是現代太陽能廢棄板這環境部給我的資料從處理前原本在一個光電板可以處理完以後分成兩種的玻璃一種是處理後玻璃碎質較多的或者是處理很乾淨的可是當這些回收頁子我剛剛講的現在的狀況"},{"start":1521.596,"end":1533.177,"text":"就像我們所擔心的這些回收業者在處理完了以後它其實是交由一些民間業者比如說一些剝離廠叫他說因為量少拿去幫我順便回收丟掉"},{"start":1534.315,"end":1555.997,"text":"那一些這些是一些沒有拿到補作業者有拿到補作業者他拿到的資料跟給環境部的完全不一樣他跟環境部說做的事很好可以清理得很乾淨可是他當他打給下游業者的時候他是拿給他的事這些下游業者這些要做真的去回收再利用的業者沒辦法接受資料所以這就是我要跟"},{"start":1557.472,"end":1568.977,"text":"部長講的真實的情況是太陽能板的災血破碎料根本就沒有環境部所拿到的資料這麼樣的漂亮這些是在利用的業者"},{"start":1571.912,"end":1595.657,"text":"私下給我的照片他說要拿現場的食物給我看所以拜託部長跟院長這個東西如果不提早來做的話會是台灣的能源跟生態的耗節這些東西都混在一般的玻璃業者因為量少塞進去拿去丟掉一起拿去丟掉好不好所以謝謝委員提供資料我們一定派人去查然後如果是違法的話我們一定會嚴懲"},{"start":1596.577,"end":1625.355,"text":"所以拜託一下我希望部長下次查討的時候也通知我我們一起去看一看謝謝好下頁第二個另外一個也是我們覺得綠人政策的問題我們的大型的風機葉片你們知道台電光是台電我們的太陽能板跟風機葉片光是台電它有辦法處理嗎多少的閒置的在我們的台電裡面"},{"start":1626.577,"end":1650.169,"text":"報告委員,據我的了解,因為這個大概現在只有幾十噸而已那目前來說的話,因為過去發生這個議題的時候環保局有去查,然後也有稽查那現在台電已經承諾放到他們的機房去了,不是裸露在外所以這個看到的景象已經不出現了那台電自己也承諾,因為這個東西一定要去做特別的處理的那這個都是早期"},{"start":1650.929,"end":1668.908,"text":"很早很早的大概都是多少k瓦的很小的所以未來我們預計大量是2040年那目前我們的量能也都開始起來當然現在的處理技術還不好但是我所知道的其實風機的這個業片是可以再回收再利用再循環的這個都是我們期待可以做的"},{"start":1669.328,"end":1698.713,"text":"好 謝謝院長所以我認為台灣要發展綠能政策我們都支持只是剛剛跟院長報告不要補助這些綠營業者可以補助可是加這麼多錢補助而且尤其是我們這樣的這個太陽能板我們的大型的風月完全沒有辦法處理的狀況台灣還一直努力而且做那麼大的計畫來去做這樣子的東西其實對台灣的整個未來的環境有非常嚴重的影響是的 政府有補助的政策"},{"start":1699.184,"end":1714.895,"text":"接受政府的補貼就要遵照政府的規定否則我們一定嚴查嚴辦好 謝謝好 下一頁好 接下來我要請教有關於這個台積電的問題那台積電我相信很多委員有請教過這個院長跟部長"},{"start":1716.201,"end":1738.067,"text":"3月4號美國總統川普跟台積電董事魏董事長共同宣布台積電在美國設廠投資金額高達1000億美金因為時間的關係我簡單問一下院長跟部長川普在3月9號的時候說加碼投資到2000億美金請問是真的嗎他應該是把之前的650億加上1000億加起來1650億"},{"start":1742.95,"end":1757.097,"text":"所以你的意思是說他不是說他不是說這一千億要加碼到兩千億是過去的一千億加上之前已經提供已經投資六百五十億那差的三百五十億是他的加淨位法"},{"start":1758.722,"end":1781.583,"text":"我們沒有辦法去評論一個外國的領袖他們所說的內容到底是什麼但是我想這個外界的報導或者各方面在講說一千億或者兩千億一千億這個是事實那之前的投資是六百五十億加上一千億那也許他我們沒有"},{"start":1782.642,"end":1786.104,"text":"沒有必要去評論兩千億這件事情我跟委員報告台積電要投資到美積電這個錢要出去一定要經過經濟部的投審會許可這裡面投審會一定會把關"},{"start":1807.498,"end":1834.759,"text":"一定會把握謝謝院長跟部長實現關係最後我還是要幫我們國人因為外資三大法人已經15年賣超了我們都很擔心台積電這樣子有點被美國半恐嚇式的投資美國投資台積電投資美國這樣的事情對於台灣整體的未來的就業我們產業的外流等等的這些東西我們還希望說部長跟院長可以提供一個報告給我們所有的委員讓我們可以來放心也讓國人來放心好嗎"},{"start":1835.419,"end":1837.528,"text":"政府跟所有產業都會保持最好的"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":629,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（17時18分）院長、各位委員、各位官員，大家午安。是不是有請卓院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：院長好。院長，再過兩個月，賴總統跟您即將就職滿週年，回顧去年113年度，賴政府有三高。院長，我跟您報告有哪三高：第一高是113年的稅收創新高，高達3兆7,619億；第二高是超徵稅收新高，稅收超徵5,283億；第三高是114年度中央政府的總預算也是新高，原本歲出編列3兆1,325億，三讀過的預算是2兆9,249億。所以，跟院長報告，你們是過去以來歷史上三高，史上稅收最高、稅收超徵最高，也是預算最高的三高政府。","政府收了這麼多人民的納稅錢，人民也給了政府那麼多的預算，我們今年可以看到萬物皆漲，人民被剝了好幾層的皮。我們看到最近三年電價漲了40%，臺鐵的票價在今年的2月漲了26.8%，國道客運業漲了6%，今年3月底，水價也提出研議要調漲的報告，所以我不想講啦，可是我是不是可以認為賴清德政府是不是現在變成了漲價總統？卓院長所帶領的是三高、預算新高的內閣？我是不是可以請教，看到這樣的資料我非常的納悶，因為今年公務人員加薪只有3%，那我可不可以請教一下部長，為何臺鐵票價漲了26%，國道客運也漲了6%？要跟部長說明的是，會搭這些的通常都是上班族，或者是學生、公務人員，都是一些比較需要搭乘的人，而這樣子的上漲，第一個，會造成物價整個上漲，現在很多的菜籃族都跟我講，現在拿1,000塊去菜市場買東西，過去都可以買很多，收穫滿滿，現在可能買了一些青菜、買了一些肉就發現1,000塊都不見了，我想要先請教，請問漲價漲那麼多，要對人民如何解釋？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。我覺得也不只三高啦，我們經濟成長率也很高，我們的GDP、國家生產總額26兆也很高。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們的股票也很高，你可以繼續講，可以講到十高。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝院長，沒事，我認為針對問題，我覺得民眾想要了解的是……"],["卓院長榮泰：我是要提醒你，經濟在進步……"],["張委員智倫：預算新高、漲價也新高，我認定在進步，可是我必須對辛苦的菜籃族、很多辛苦的人民，針對薪水不漲，比如說公務人員只漲了3%，臺鐵為什麼漲了這麼多？客運為什麼漲了那麼多？"],["卓院長榮泰：您知道臺鐵已經30年沒有漲票價嗎？"],["張委員智倫：我了解，可是我還是必須要講……"],["卓院長榮泰：今年調的幅度……"],["張委員智倫：政府應該要來補貼這些辛苦的人。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以我們率先在前幾年就提出TPASS，短程的、固定的這些乘客用TPASS，這些漲價對他的影響是最少的，而且我們TPASS又有新的2.0版，對常客又有一些新的規劃，所以影響是小的。"],["張委員智倫：院長，我都非常認同你說的，可是我的建議就是說，可不可以一次……我認為漲超過3%的就是要緩漲，不是說政府不能漲價，可是你一次漲26%，或是漲得比人民加薪的幅度多，人民的痛苦指數就會增高，就像你講的，GDP成長也沒有成長百分之二十幾，所以院長，我希望的是可以苦民所苦，我沒有說您正確或錯，只是要反映人民的心聲。"],["卓院長榮泰：如果臺鐵有反映成本的話，絕對不只漲這些幅度，我們認為它就是應該緩緩的漲，調整到合理的票價就可以了。"],["張委員智倫：對，所以我認為成長百分之二十幾，沒有說明原因，好，部長請說明，您要說明。"],["陳部長世凱：原因其實說明了很多，之後可以私下向您報告……"],["張委員智倫：那你現在直接簡答好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：第一，您剛剛所說的GDP只漲3%，或者是薪水只漲3%，但過去30年薪水漲了幾%，您有算過嗎？"],["張委員智倫：部長，你要針對問題回答，我問你的是臺鐵為什麼要漲票價，你沒有回答，你說過去到現在……"],["陳部長世凱：30年沒有漲，它的成本已經成長非常多，而且他們的薪資也調漲了。"],["張委員智倫：意思就是說，只要過去沒有漲的，你可以一次漲那麼多？那剛剛院長講的緩漲，您有聽清楚嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：院長……"],["張委員智倫：院長說……"],["卓院長榮泰：它如果要反映成本的話，它已經不是在全額反映成本了。"],["張委員智倫：你一次漲了26%就造成人民的痛苦啊！"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，您大概很少搭臺鐵，也很少在通勤，您不曉得現在只要用TPASS，基本上是漲不到，不管臺鐵漲幾%……"],["張委員智倫：所以你的意思是說……"],["陳部長世凱：對通勤的民眾來說……"],["張委員智倫：人民在臺鐵票價漲了百分之二十幾，人民無感，覺得政府漲26%是OK的？"],["陳部長世凱：通勤的民眾不會受到影響，您沒有在通勤，所以你大概不曉得。"],["張委員智倫：等一下、等一下，主席，這樣子質詢的方式可以嗎？"],["主席：沒問題，呼籲一下官員，不要反質詢好不好？請委員質詢之後再回答。"],["張委員智倫：我是為了民眾來講，你講到我個人身上，這就是非常不好的示範，好不好？如果您不願意回答漲價的原因，只要用過去的歷史……"],["陳部長世凱：漲價的原因我剛剛講很多了。"],["張委員智倫：你要漲的是漲價……"],["陳部長世凱：它的成本不斷在成長。"],["張委員智倫：不是、不是……"],["陳部長世凱：它的服務也必須要成長，再來，員工的薪水……"],["張委員智倫：你要漲的原因是說，你這樣子漲價，人民就不會有感覺，然後你的意思是臺鐵就不會虧損嗎？"],["陳部長世凱：會減少通勤民眾的衝擊，他們幾乎不會有衝擊到，尤其現在透過TPASS……"],["張委員智倫：所以這個原因就是因為臺鐵過去都沒有漲，所以您當部長，你看到這個問題，就把這二、三十年來的一起漲，意思就是這樣，好，你有解釋就可以了。所以我希望讓院長知道，我不希望我們的總統變成漲價總統、卓榮泰院長是三高的內閣，現在這張圖片是民眾跟我檢舉傳給我的。他說院長很辛苦，現在臺灣不管國際、國內都遇到嚴重的一些影響，他不希望我們的院長在週末的時候，是參加類似政治，尤其是有相關罷免宣講的活動，企圖要罷免在野黨的立委，所以我拿到這張照片，院長，你是不是覺得這張照片不是很適當？"],["卓院長榮泰：這張照片上面的「加油」很適當。"],["張委員智倫：我的意思是這上面有「全民罷免救彰化」，這樣的照片適當嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：來聽的民眾，他身上有什麼樣的標誌、衣服，他要表達什麼意願，我們尊重所有來參加活動的……"],["張委員智倫：所以你的意思是，公務人員沒有遵守行政中立這樣的……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們絕對遵守行政中立……"],["張委員智倫：那請問你在場知不知道這是有關於相關罷免的活動？"],["卓院長榮泰：不是，我們是做政策的宣導。"],["張委員智倫：好，我會跟那個人民反映，說你是做政策宣導。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，有一場在新北，那一場也歡迎委員來現場聽。"],["張委員智倫：到現場聽有沒有罷免的活動。"],["卓院長榮泰：看我們有沒有談到類似的話題……"],["張委員智倫：等一下。我們都尊重人民行使任何的權利，可是我認為行政官員不應該參與這樣的活動。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，你可以來現場拿一支「反罷免」的牌子啊！"],["張委員智倫：你應該了解這是怎麼樣的活動，比如說你前一場活動就知道了，你下一場活動如果還去的話。我認為第一場活動你不知道，那我們還可以這樣，你的幕僚這麼多，下一場如果還是這樣的活動，我認為民主社會國家的行政首長不應該去參加這個有罷免在野黨立委意圖的活動，我們努力想要監督政府……"],["卓院長榮泰：剛好相反。"],["張委員智倫：如果有這樣的活動的話，這是人民檢舉提供給我的照片。"],["卓院長榮泰：剛好相反。"],["張委員智倫：請院長深思，我也沒有說你……"],["卓院長榮泰：第一場跟第二場聽的人都很清楚我在講總預算的問題，因為我在這裡講，委員有些聽不懂；到那邊講，人民群眾都聽得懂。"],["張委員智倫：可是我要跟院長報告的是，這一張照片就是人民提供給我的，他認為這樣是很不適當的，請院長三思。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員可以來現場拿一個反罷免的牌子，也許也可以被拍成照片。"],["張委員智倫：我們不要造成社會的衝突跟爭議，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們在這裡做政策的宣導，我們接受任何公開……"],["張委員智倫：接下來我必須要講，其實最近大家也討論了很多，尤其剛剛講很多臺鐵票價漲、國道客運漲，這些東西其實很重要的一個點是電力問題，其實我們一直在跟院長、經濟部的郭部長講，其實台電113年的稅前虧損高達411億元，營運已經連3年虧損，今（114）年台電恐繼續虧損，我們必須要講的是，113年的決算顯示每度電的燃料成本已經大減20%，為什麼台電還是繼續虧損呢？根據清大葉宗洸教授的分析，我之前也跟院長報告過了，其實問題就出在台電外購電力的價格遠高於台電自發電力的價格。在112年的時候台電燃煤的發電成本是3.4，基本上它都會加價跟民營業者去買電，在112年的時候是加20%，意思就是它多給了民營電廠20%的獲利，結果想不到113年的時候，台電的自發電力只剩2.5，代表因為國際燃油價格下降，讓我們台電燃煤的發電成本比較少，可是沒有想到台電居然跟民營電廠買燃煤的時候，加價變成34%，這意思是什麼？當時我就請教很多台電的好朋友，問他是不是我們所有台電外購的自營廠商，它沒有依照國際能源下降的部分，去給台電相應的節省成本。所以顧名思義，我要跟部長、院長講的是，難道台電就要用這樣的高價跟民營電廠買電嗎？是不是可以請部長回答？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個你應該要去看他們當初所訂下來的合約內容，合約內容怎麼樣規範，我想我們的國營機構必須要按照訂約的內容去執行，所以不一定是像委員所指正的，是故意加價去跟它買，這合約上面所寫的，我們必須要遵法，所以我們依照合約的內容去進行，當然也許有委員所看到的這個現象，這個我們回去以後會充分的檢討。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝部長，上次已經跟你報告過了，我們希望台電基本上儘量用自發的電力，我們委託民營電廠的時候應該給它合理的利潤，而不是讓民營電廠可以賺那麼多的錢。","第二、我們來看看，我剛剛也跟大家報告，在113年的時候因為國際能源價格下降，所以所有的台電自力發電的價格都比112年度來得低，可是我們看到風力發電和太陽能光電，尤其是風力發電，台電自發電力是4.4元，可是113年外購的成本是6.59元，加價將近50%跟民營電廠收電。我要跟部長講的是，可以讓民營電廠賺那麼多錢嗎？後續我們了解了台電的躉購電費公式，過去就是因為這些風力發電的民營業者不能接受台電所提出的電力政策，從103年以後就用了一個前10年跟後10年不同的收費方式，才導致台電買一度的綠電有時候要用6塊錢甚至7塊錢這樣的狀況。可是這個問題到108年以後，因為台電的電力政策改變了以後，沒有人要跟台電做生意，本席擔心的是，台電未來只能購買到昂貴的綠電，因為前10年跟後10年價格不一樣，等到後10年這些綠電業者要賣台電便宜的電的時候，比如一度電3.5、4塊的時候，他們就會跟台電毀約，就像剛剛郭部長講的，它不會依照合約來走，所以台電只能買到高額的綠電。請問郭部長，最近簽約的廠商是104年，合約即將在114年屆滿10年，就要到期了，請問綠電業者會繼續賣電給台電嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們基本上要去看當初所訂的合約到底是怎麼樣，我想政府一定要依法來進行，遵守合約的內容，如果委員認為它是不合理的，我們來考慮，但還是要在法的框架下來尋求解決的辦法。我現在在督導台電的時候，我就跟他們講，他們要用各種方式去考慮他們成本的競爭力，如果今天買的電價格比較高的話，那就可以從其他的地方去買一樣的再生能源，不一定要跟某個廠商買，如果它太貴，就不可能跟它買，因為這會影響到整個台電的競爭力。"],["張委員智倫：部長，我現在的意思是，就像之前跟您報告的，過去10年這些綠能業者都賺飽飽，一度電都賣給台電6、7塊，現在10年到了，他們之前賣貴的電的時間已經結束了，他們要賣便宜的電去balance的時候，這些綠電業者基本上都會選擇跟台電解約，把這些電賣給外面比如大型的上市櫃公司，去賺取更多的收入，那台電不就變成冤大頭了嗎？而且現在就我所知，現在你們還在計算台電所稱的「分手費」，在計算的時候還沒有一個正確的公式去檢討。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個部分就表示它是違約的，如果我們訂的約是20年，前面高、後面低，但是它後面不執行的話，我想這個一定有……"],["張委員智倫：部長，我要請教一下，這樣的「分手費」有算出來了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不可能在法令之下它可以違約，不可能！違約……"],["張委員智倫：你的意思是說這些綠電業者無法違約嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不，它有可能違約，但是我們一定會處分它。"],["張委員智倫：它是以利益為導向，如果你處分它不夠重，所以在這邊我也拜託部長，是不是可以要求它付懲罰性的違約金？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員智倫：我必須跟部長講……"],["郭部長智輝：它的電是要透過我們台電的電網才有辦法賣給它想要賣的客人，所以我就是不讓它執行的話也沒辦法。"],["張委員智倫：好，因為台電跟民營業者這些綠電公司，他們過去賺那麼多錢，現在其實還沒有討論出如何未來解約的一個公式和計算方式，我也希望部長可以拿出guts，就像你講的應該用懲罰性的方式，讓他們繼續跟台電合作，賣便宜的綠電給台電，讓台電不要虧損。不然的話，我們前10年已經供養他們那麼久了，後10年現在部長沒有辦法拿出guts的話，我認為台電只會繼續虧損。","所以在這邊我要跟院長及部長講，我認為立法院在114年的時候刪減掉給台電的補助1,000億不是沒有道理，我們不是不補貼台電這1,000億，而是過去臺灣人民已經拿了3,000億的納稅錢補助了台電，原因很單純，就是因為烏俄戰爭而能源價格上漲，如果你現在再補貼台電，你沒有一個正確的能源政策，難道不是把人民這1,000億的納稅錢拿去補貼綠電業者以及民間業者嗎？部長可以回答嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，是這個樣子，我們當初為了要補助國內的國人用電，所以我們一共花了6,000億，但是大院給我們只有3,000億，因此我們實際上還是有3,000億。所以在討論的時候，我們在專業的經濟委員會裡面討論過，這1,000億它只刪了30億，但是我們來到大院以後整個被拿掉。"],["張委員智倫：如果你們有提出更好的，比如可以解決立法院一些委員的問題的話，就像我講的，我們不是不願意補助台電，就像我講的，是因為不願意補助台電用高價給民營業者或是高價買綠電，而且未來只要這些綠電業者跟台電解約，台電目前沒有辦法拿出一個對台電有利的解約方式。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，補助只是減少我們財務上面的負擔，只是減少我們財務的負擔，並不是補助台電在運作上面的虧損。我們講過了，我們會再努力，從我們現在運作的方式，包括我們的商業模式，包括我們創電的方式，包括我們所有的行政，包括我們的運籌模式，從各方面精進，所以我們會努力，但是我請大院同意……"],["張委員智倫：你們努力的方式……"],["郭部長智輝：給我們的1,000億是在消除過去補助國人的財務這方面，因為我們還是要去借錢，要借錢來彌補，那個利息的部分大概增加了好幾十億的利息，所以如果大院給我們補助，讓我們財務能夠更健全……"],["張委員智倫：政府已經補貼台電的利息也蠻多的。好不好？我們就接下來講，我們希望部長還是要提出具體的政策跟立法院報告。","接下來我們要請教院長的部分，這是我一直很重視的一個問題，臺灣發展那麼多的綠電、綠能，有關於太陽能板以及風力發電的大型風葉板，其實現在大家在臺灣的認定是，這些東西未來是臺灣積極要做的事，我們也認同。可是我要跟院長報告，過去從108年到113年，過去6年來，我們有5家回收處理太陽能板的業者處理了將近1,000公噸的太陽能板，未來7年即將會有1萬噸的廢棄太陽能板，再加7年，14年後總共有10萬噸廢棄的太陽能板。","現在讓人民沒辦法接受的是，在我們的理解就是太陽能板應該是可以回收的，可是現在這5家處理業者不是做回收，他們是做處理或者報廢這樣的舉動。尤其是太陽能板在過去，我跟院長報告，它過去就是因為玻璃和EVA膜黏得很緊沒有辦法分離，我知道現在環境部也積極在努力做整個太陽能板的處理，可是到現在，目前來講是沒有辦法處理，也沒有辦法回收，只能做報廢的動作。是不是請院長或者部長可以解釋一下，未來這麼多的廢棄物，尤其是過去處理的這1,000噸，政府有補助的只有一百多噸，沒有補助的、給這些回收業者的不曉得丟到哪裡去。根據我收到的消息，就是給一些民間業者跟其他的玻璃業廢棄物全部混在一起拿去丟，這樣子不會造成臺灣未來整個環保和垃圾的危機嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：技術的進步如何來處理，請部長回答一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想我們update一下現在的科技狀況，太陽能廢棄物回收的部分，我們早就有看到這樣一個問題，所以工業技術研究院已經完全開發出來、可以技轉處理太陽能廢棄物的技術。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。","部長，我們也瞭解工研院有去做這樣的事情，不管是技轉或是提供一些授權給相關的民間業者，你們會後是不是可以提供給我，現在是不是有在生產相關的產品？因為就我得知是完全沒有，而且現在政府單位其實也沒有辦法掌握生產多少的狀況，所以現在是沒有辦法生產的狀況，就算工研院有在做，也沒有辦法生產。"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，其實第一個是，國內的太陽能板是從2000年開始用，2010年是因為當時推動百萬陽光屋頂，所以那個時候開始多了很多。我們是2018年、2019年才規定裝設太陽能板必須付清除處理的費用，所以我們現在處理的是以前很舊的。目前來看的話，的確，因為那個時候不敷成本，所以大概只能做這樣的用途。但是因為現在有5家，未來還有幾家正在審核當中，我們希望他們可以做到全循環再利用，因為那個裡面不是廢棄物，而是一個很好的資材、還可以再循環的，包含郭部長講的……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝彭部長。"],["彭部長啓明：現在還不是最高量的時候，所以委員不用擔心，預計2039年是最高量的時候，一年大概會有10萬噸的產出，我們預計現在的量可以到13萬噸，所以委員，這個問題不是很大。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝彭部長。","我們現在來看下一張圖。這張圖是民間業者給我的，他們知道現在環境部其實有在努力，也有補貼回收業者一噸2萬4,000塊，可是想不到我去瞭解之後，有很多民間業者跟我反映說，太陽能光電廠設置光電板，到了年限以後，會請清除業者去清除，環境部收到太陽能光電業者繳給基金的費用以後，會去補貼清除業者。補貼完了以後會到處理機構，就是我剛剛講的這5家處理機構，這5家處理機構現在一噸都拿政府2萬4的補貼費，然後政府有去稽核，可是沒有想到環境部的稽核，我不知道是環境部被騙了還是怎麼樣？他們的稽核只是做一個制式的稽核。","所以我們來看一下這張圖片，左邊的部分是現在環境部給我的太陽能廢棄板的資料，從處理前原本是這樣一個光電板，處理完以後可以分成兩種玻璃，一種是處理後雜質較多的，另一種是可以處理得很乾淨的。可是我剛剛講了，現在的狀況就像我們所擔心的，這些回收業者在處理完以後，其實是交由一些民間業者，比如說一些玻璃廠，跟他們說因為量少，順便拿去幫我回收、丟掉。這些是沒有拿到補助的業者。至於有拿到補助的業者，他拿到的資料跟給環境部的完全不一樣！他跟環境部說可以做得很好、清理得很乾淨，可是當他拿給下游業者的時候，是這些真的要回收再利用的業者沒辦法接受的資料，所以這是我要跟部長講的。真實的情況是太陽能板的拆解破碎料根本就沒有環境部所拿到的資料這麼樣的漂亮！這些是再利用的業者私下給我的照片，他還說要拿現場的實物給我看。","所以拜託部長跟院長，這個東西如果不提早來做的話，會是臺灣的能源跟生態的浩劫，這些東西都混在一般玻璃業者的廢棄物裡面，因為量少，塞進去，一起拿去丟掉。好不好？"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝委員提供資料，我們一定派人去查，如果違法的話，我們一定會嚴懲。"],["張委員智倫：所以拜託一下部長，下次查廠的時候也通知我，我們一起去看一看。"],["彭部長啓明：好，謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：第二個，另外一個也是綠能政策的問題，我們的太陽能板跟大型的風機葉片，光是台電有辦法處理嗎？多少閒置在台電裡面？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，據我的了解，因為這個大概現在只有幾十噸而已，以目前來說，因為過去發生這個議題的時候，環保局有去查，也有稽查，現在台電已經承諾放到他們的機房去了，不是裸露在外，所以看到的景象已經不出現了，台電自己也承諾，因為這個東西一定要去做特別的處理，這個都是早期很早、很早的，大概都是多少KW的，很小的，所以未來我們預計大量是2040年，目前我們的量能也都開始起來，當然現在的處理技術還不好，但是我所知道的，其實風機的葉片是可以再回收、再利用、再循環的，這都是我們期待可以做的。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝院長。所以我認為臺灣要發展綠能政策，我們都支持，只是如同剛剛跟院長報告的，綠電業者可以補助，可是加這麼多錢補助，而且尤其是我們現在的太陽能板、大型的風葉完全沒有辦法處理的狀況，臺灣還一直努力而且用那麼大的計畫去做這樣子的東西，其實對臺灣整個未來的環境有非常嚴重的影響。"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，政府有補助的政策，接受政府的補貼，就要遵照政府的規定，否則我們一定嚴查嚴辦。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。接下來我要請教有關於台積電的問題，台積電的問題我相信很多委員有請教過院長跟部長了。3月4日美國總統川普跟台積電魏董事長共同宣布台積電在美國設廠，投資金額高達1,000億美金，因為時間的關係，我簡單問一下院長跟部長，川普在3月9日說加碼投資到2,000億美金，請問是真的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：他應該是把之前的650億，加上1,000億，加起來1,650億啦。"],["張委員智倫：所以你的意思是，他不是說這1,000億要加碼到2,000億，而是過去的1,000億加上之前已經提供……"],["卓院長榮泰：650億。"],["張委員智倫：已經投資了650億，差的350億是他的進位法？"],["郭部長智輝：我們沒有辦法去評論一個外國的領袖所說的內容到底是什麼，但是我想外電的報導或者各方面在講1,000億或者2,000億，1,000億是事實，之前的投資是650億，加上1,000億，我們沒有……"],["張委員智倫：所以川普講的是事實，還差350億。"],["郭部長智輝：沒有必要去評論2,000億這件事情，我們認為……"],["張委員智倫：2,000億就多一個廠！"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，台積電要投資到美積電，這個錢要出去，一定要經過經濟部的投審會許可，這裡面投審會一定會把關。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝院長跟部長，時間的關係，最後我還是要幫我們國人發聲，因為外資、三大法人已經連15賣超了，我們都很擔心台積電這樣子有點被美國半恐嚇式的投資，台積電投資美國這樣的事情，對於臺灣整體未來的就業、產業的外流等等這些東西，我們還是希望部長跟院長可以提供一個報告給我們所有的委員，讓我們可以放心，也讓國人放心好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：政府跟所有的產業都會保持最好的溝通，一起合作，謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝張智倫委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來最後一位登記發言第44位陳雪生委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","謝龍介","沈伯洋","張智倫","陳雪生"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2025-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00004","1142601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1142601_00004"}}},{"id":"159313","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159313","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1468b0c2f72abc7f061cec07afc8e2ec192e6bfb57ea0be42a4a0420ebefc62881d98ccfcd6d1fbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"17:01:41 - 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沈委員好委員長好那這個因為上個禮拜這個賴總統有這一個記者會有一個關於我們現在民主受到很多的滲透中國的攻擊等等之類的這個國家安全現在要守衛啦所以我今天用這個民主保衛戰來作為一個名稱那但是呢因為裡面有很多的法案是過去一年我們已經推出的"},{"start":72.814,"end":90.897,"text":"所以我特別針對裡面的大概是第15還第16點關於這個資訊安全關於認知作戰這一塊我認為還是有必要 理與理性所以我今天大概是問這邊有列三個一個是跟經濟安全有關大概就是像日本2019年一直到現在一直在做那個經濟安全保障"},{"start":91.477,"end":116.044,"text":"那另外一塊是跟資通安全有關有可能會等一下要請到這個書法部的部長那公民的權利我看今天時間可能會來不及但是我剛剛有先跟這個市方部長先聊過所以我可能會著重在前面這兩塊那第一個呢我從這個經濟安全保障開始就是川普2.0以來就是台美關係其實在這邊呢有很多字但是重點就是那紅色的就是一直在講晶片"},{"start":116.664,"end":138.861,"text":"那我看今天還有到上個禮拜就是很多委員的質詢就一直也都是在針對晶片台積電現在去美國啊會不會被吃掉啊什麼等等之類的那我覺得有點搔不到癢處啦我們現在的整個半導體的聚落呢在台灣其實算是非常的重要我們本身就是一個半導體的熱點那我之前呢就在辦公室的時候我們就請"},{"start":140.029,"end":166.904,"text":"辦公室來做一個很簡單的這種商業很常識的這個SWAT的分析就是說我們現在半導體目前我們的機會跟我們的威脅到底是什麼那其實我們的機會一直以來都是因為美國對於先進這個晶片製造它有某種程度的不安那它也是想要把一些製程把它放在美國那這也是我們的機會因為有這個非紅供應鏈有民主供應鏈嘛但是國民黨很喜歡把這個放在T就是Threads"},{"start":167.384,"end":182.114,"text":"他認為說沒有這就是美國要吃掉我們的證據那用這樣來散播一些以美論不過我認為他們有一個點是我們真的必須要注意的就是其實美國在擔心晶片這件事情他最擔心的地方其實還是技術的外流"},{"start":182.841,"end":206.742,"text":"也就是說呢我們如果作為一個節點我們被中國滲透的那麼嚴重結果我們的技術竟然被中國拿去我認為這才是美國最擔心的地方所以整件事情我們本來好好的從日本到德國到美國這樣的一個佈局台積電遍佈全球它本來是一個好的產業佈局但裡面就會有一個漏洞就是如果今天台灣成為白手套要怎麼辦"},{"start":207.748,"end":231.639,"text":"所以在這邊,這都是這陣子的新聞,這個3月4號才一個禮拜前的新聞而已,新加坡就破獲這個中國幫買輝達晶片的白手套,我記得是逮捕了三個人左右。然後這個華爾街日報在3月2號的時候也有特別點名到台灣,就說我們是不是成為一個購買輝達NVIDIA伺服器的白手套。"},{"start":232.299,"end":257.501,"text":"所以這件事情我在 這個不是我現在要問的問題但你可以看到這是我之前的PowerPoint這是2024年10月30的時候那時候我有問部長 有問這個經濟部我那時候也有問教育部就是關於說 這一些交流還有一些公司成為白手套之後我們到底有沒有把他們當作我們管制上的一個清單那時候有算人科技嘛 比特大陸嘛 它背後有華為嘛"},{"start":258.482,"end":287.662,"text":"那時候我們有跟這一個經濟部的專員其實已經討論過他很忌妒他要做更新啊等等之類的那這一個只是可是我認為這可能只是最低階的因為你今天把它列到這一個產品的名單上面或者你把它放在這個出口的管制上面這可能是遠遠不夠因為這個並沒有解決假設他們的人來這邊做滲透他們把技術偷走要怎麼辦所以我今年有提案就是說去年有提案國安法第三條跟這個兩岸條例第九條"},{"start":288.422,"end":316.249,"text":"都是針對這個技術竊取來特別做相關的規範所以在這邊想要問就是院長因為我們現在去年大概提了十部法律的修法很多都跟經濟安全有關但我們現在等待的是院版就是說有些法案一直被藍白卡住那個沒話講但有些我們是在等待院版的出現所以針對第一個就是技術外流這件事情相關法規範的盤點有沒有可能在這一個會期來進行"},{"start":319.217,"end":335.128,"text":"現在委員提到的重要的內容相關的法案行政院代表政府應該在必要的時候尤其是現在這個關鍵的時刻拿出政府的態度弄一個符合現在這個安全上所需要的版本"},{"start":336.128,"end":352.494,"text":"絕對是政府應該做的事情但是我們是希望說 朝野內部 朝野黨團之間的意見能夠再趨於一致那這 行政院員在這個時候跟大家討論以後形成一個共同的版本也可以這一點就要拜託院長 然後部長是不是要補充什麼我們已經要來徵定這個經濟間的罪來修正兩岸條例"},{"start":357.056,"end":373.706,"text":"那院長也有責成我們法務部調查局跟國安局入委會勞動部以及經濟部成立這個跨部會工作小組強化機關之間的橫向聯繫加強查緝相關不法活動因為我們認為如果不"},{"start":374.56,"end":389.832,"text":"很重乏的對經濟安全來講的話確實如委員所指正的很容易把這些訊息給流露出去那一定要透過法務部嚴懲那才會產生效益"},{"start":393.243,"end":408.418,"text":"謝謝部長我覺得這邊講到一個重點就是說假設我們今天要做管制但是我們一定要有查緝的量能其實如果沒有查緝的量能或者沒有回報的機制等於說你把它擺在那邊這個經濟安保也不容易建立所以這也是我認為法務部應該要扮演蠻重要的一個角色"},{"start":409.139,"end":434.452,"text":"那在這邊呢我剛好在這一個二月的時候有去聽美國一場聽證會他也在講這件事情他裡面就有做了幾個建議第一個加強出口管制跟投資的限制然後智慧的貿易限制但這一個呢其實對我們台灣來講還要再做一個轉換因為晶片本身是放在技術類它不是終端的產品嘛所以單純做這樣的一個貿易限制可能還不夠完整第二個他提到"},{"start":435.132,"end":456.446,"text":"國家級的技術要有一個風險評估的單位這個日本現在是有一個專責單位從19年做到現在就專門在做經濟安保了第三個就是要追蹤中國的技術發展我認為台灣不管是經濟部還是事務發部應該有這個能力做這一個美方那時候在聽證會的這三個建議那這個才是我們真的我們投資美國"},{"start":457.106,"end":475.959,"text":"我們又建立了非紅的產業鏈然後又符合相關的規範不是做最基本的什麼資安CMMC的規範那麼簡單而已而是這整體的大方向跟美國一起來做協作不過這邊我就有點擔心就是因為剛剛講的因為技術類的畢竟它是晶片是屬於技術類我們目前貿易法13條跟兩岸條例的35條"},{"start":478.18,"end":494.216,"text":"大部分都是可以看到這個文字高科技貨品的出口的實體管理名單比如說輸往俄羅斯白俄羅斯高科技的貨品的清單就是國家核心的關鍵技術很難直接扣在這個貿易法跟兩岸條例"},{"start":494.756,"end":512.823,"text":"所以這是這一個會期我覺得我們蠻重要的工作既然總統已經在談話裡面說到說我們今天針對中國的滲透跟威脅要越來越多的願板要出現嘛那我覺得除了剛剛因為剛剛講的是人我們剛剛提到的兩岸條例的那一個修正跟國安法的修正是針對人那個人留我們來做修正"},{"start":513.443,"end":523.808,"text":"這一個部分是貿易法跟兩岸條例是針對這一些看起來是貨品物品但其實我們是要針對技術的方面把它涵蓋進去做修正我覺得這兩個可能都要並行"},{"start":525.595,"end":551.538,"text":"所以總統那些材質裡面就是人流物流 音流 技術要有序的調整我們也知道我們現在已經要求了內控外控都要做到什麼東西該進來不該進來尤其重要我們重要的零組件或是晶片要出去去到哪裡如果違法 違規違法的人我們現在的法令我感覺惡阻力不夠 情度不高所以效果不佳我們會從這個方向來著手"},{"start":553.306,"end":577.523,"text":"謝謝院長 那我就希望至少我們從人流物流的這兩個方向我們都來做立法看這一個會期至少能夠討論出一個大方向那另外一個是這個我不知道院長會怎麼想就是說就像我剛剛一直提到的以日本為例它就是有一個主責的一個單位它是直接就是在他們的那一個部長部長室不是部長室就他們的首長室他管的是全部橫跨每一個部門的經濟安全"},{"start":578.163,"end":594.699,"text":"因為我這一方面我就做了一些研究就是目前跟經濟安全有關的部門當然最重要的當然是經濟部這是沒問題有產發署但其實經濟部最近是有一部分擱到抒發部這是一個再來國科會會管到我們的核心關鍵的技術陸委會這剛好剛剛這個"},{"start":599.723,"end":623.058,"text":"這個邱委員長已經馬上發現了所以就上來了就是兩岸條例的這個投審嘛 對不對然後外交部的國際多邊出口管制的體制的協作法務部就是剛剛部長提到的查緝的這個問題還有調查這個中資假借那種外資去竊取的問題教育部會有造冊的問題因為他要造冊我們才知道到底哪裡要管理所以就變成說他有點太過於跨部門了"},{"start":623.778,"end":648.263,"text":"所有的現在經濟安全我們要保護我們的國家關鍵基礎技術幾乎每一個部門都有這就跟之前我們在跟國防部在詢問的時候說這個解放軍的學校如果念過解放軍學校的人來到台灣我們應該要怎麼辦後來國防部處理完之後發現沒有教育部也要處理因為這些人呢到底他們的學歷認證我們台灣應該怎麼看待所以會變成每一個層面都會牽涉到那一個部分的國家安全"},{"start":648.843,"end":676.321,"text":"那經濟安全現在我覺得也面臨這樣的一個問題所以不知道有沒有可能就是我知道用政委直接來主責這件事情當然有可能又是國家預算上的一個問題啦但是有沒有可能不管是用一個辦公室或者用政委或者直接是院長去主責這整個經濟安全的法制那我們就可以把整個法制建構起來裡面就可以處理到剛剛提到的人流還有金流還有剛剛資訊流還有這一個技術的問題"},{"start":679.209,"end":705.643,"text":"要看院長或部長有沒有想要補充這一塊報告委員我們在我們的這個智庫裡面有專責的智庫在研究這一個問題有之前像國科會的D-SAT什麼也做了很多但有時候我是怕說什麼就是比如說他們叫不動其他的部會因為他牽扯太廣了有時候這一個部會做了但是另外一個部會不知道這件事情的嚴重性那就會形成一個漏洞所以如果能夠有更高的一個協調機制的話其實對這整體的建構會比較好"},{"start":708.624,"end":723.337,"text":"那我知道這個其實是一個大規劃所以不一定現在就必須要給一個答案委員包括兩個現狀現狀就是在部會裡面他們都有內部的會議他們會就他們的目的世界主管去做嚴格的考核那麼"},{"start":724.028,"end":738.718,"text":"由政務委員組成的政務會議每個禮拜都會召開都會在裡面有重要的必須拿來大家互相協力完成的政務會議是一個很好的平台我會加強委員所說的這個部分加強"},{"start":740.243,"end":766.14,"text":"經濟、資通、安全上面的考量謝謝那因為時間的關係我剛剛講的都是關鍵基礎技術我現在想講一下關鍵基礎設施那最近因為治安案件頻傳就是常常被攻擊裡面當然就是最近發生的這個馬街醫院還有張機有沒有就是他們的資料外洩被駭客攻擊我想這個大家應該都很熟悉了我就不多說那因為畢竟醫院也算是關鍵基礎設施的一環所以至少我們的速發部是能夠去幫忙的"},{"start":766.56,"end":794.206,"text":"就是說他要怎麼去建置這個資安啊要怎麼去防止未來的攻擊啊但現在我有一點比較擔心的是這一個就是院長應該知道最近我們立法院通過一個叫做公益階幣者保護法應該知道這部法律吧那這部法律呢還沒有實行但這部法律裡面很特別他就說你今天要階幣的時候呢你可以跟民意代表階幣你可以去跟媒體業者階幣你可以跟法人登記的公益團體階幣"},{"start":795.956,"end":807.578,"text":"法人登記的公益團體說真的這邊指的當然就是公益階壁者這個保護協會嘛這個保護協會的理事過去曾經擔任過理事長的就是這個我照片放大這一位這個大家可以看他一下俊俏的臉龐"},{"start":809.053,"end":825.454,"text":"所以呢在這件事情上面呢對我來講呢簡單來說你可以帶你的資料到他們的網站然後你可以去爆料你可以去吹哨但我去看他的網站之後我就發現他的網頁的這個原始碼裡面埋了一個這一個那我覺得這個部長看可能就會很熟悉了啦"},{"start":826.255,"end":845.258,"text":"他連到一個外面的一個網站那個就值得懷疑這是個Java Script所以這個Script可以做很多事情所以應該要去再檢測一下是有點值得去就是我會擔心看到這個Script如果你這個講那個Script"},{"start":845.838,"end":858.965,"text":"對 這個部長因為一看就知道嘛他一看就知道他外連到其他的一個網站但為什麼他外連到其他的網站他其實是被埋了惡意城市那我們就特別去查說就是去導到那一個網站之後那個惡意城市到底是什麼"},{"start":859.873,"end":883.503,"text":"結果他竟然是可以去辨識數位足跡去鎖定你的身份比如說今天是法務部長說要來吹哨有沒有然後他根據他的數位足跡發現這個是我平常鎖定的那一個人再跳出病毒讓他去下載去入侵他的電腦然後去取得他的權限然後用病毒感染的方式去竊取這些資料而這一個手法完全符合中國apt24的手法"},{"start":884.332,"end":898.124,"text":"那這個對我來說是個問題嘛你等於政府立法建了一個網站然後這個指定了一個網站這個網站可以中國在上面收集資訊那你不是通過一個法然後再幫助中國來收集全台灣人民的個資嗎"},{"start":899.229,"end":918.609,"text":"那這個不是只有在這個個案喔比如說好今天消基會他也是民間團體但是他也是我們政府認可的團體他也會有個資電商也會有個資所以法定指定的或者擁有大量個資的電商他完全就會是一個我們個資的漏洞但是我們速發部卻沒有辦法直接去管"},{"start":919.687,"end":941.946,"text":"所以這一個部分不知道部長目前來講我們針對這一個方面我有跟其實蘇巴部討論過幾次但要不要你們有一個更全面的方法針對這種事情我們未來到底該怎麼辦這個就想講說第一個當然我們現在有個治安法我們希望能夠趕快通過通過治安法之後當然就是說我們納管 主要納管CI跟一些我們的政府還有地方政府"},{"start":943.438,"end":951.284,"text":"民間的這些東西我想下一步可能就是我們在三法先通過這一版以後我們下一個修法可能還要對民間的這個"},{"start":955.785,"end":955.805,"text":"好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":595,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（17時2分）謝謝主席。有請院長，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：院長好。上個禮拜賴總統舉行記者會，提到我們現在的民主受到很多滲透及中國的攻擊等等之類的，所以國家安全需要守衛。因此，我今天用民主保衛戰來作為名稱。不過裡面有很多法案是過去一年我們已經推出的，所以我特別針對裡面的第十五點或第十六點，有關資訊安全、認知作戰這一塊，我認為還是有必要予以釐清。這邊列了三個：一個是跟經濟安全有關，大概像日本從2019年開始到現在，一直在做的經濟安全保障；另外一塊跟資通安全有關，等一下可能要請教數發部部長；至於公民權利，今天時間可能會來不及，但是我剛剛有先跟數發部長聊過，所以我會著重在前面這兩塊。","第一個，我從經濟安全保障開始，川普2.0以來的臺美關係。這邊寫了很多字，重點就是紅色部分，也就是他一直在講晶片。今天及上禮拜很多委員質詢時也一直針對晶片，譬如台積電現在去美國會不會被吃掉什麼等等之類的，我覺得有點搔不到癢處。現在半導體聚落在臺灣算是非常重要，畢竟我們本身就是一個半導體熱點。之前我就在辦公室嘗試做了一個很簡單的商業SWOT分析，也就是現在我們半導體的機會跟威脅到底是什麼？其實我們的機會一直以來都在於，美國對於先進晶片製造有某種程度的不安，所以想把一些製程放在美國，這也是我們的機會，因為我們有非紅供應鏈、民主供應鏈。但國民黨很喜歡把這個放在T上面，也就是Threats，還認為沒有，這就是美國要吃掉我們的證據，並以此來散播疑美論。不過我認為他們有一個點是我們真的必須要注意的，那就是美國擔心晶片這件事情，且其最擔心的地方還是技術外流！也就是如果我們作為一個節點，我們被中國滲透得那麼嚴重，結果我們的技術竟然被中國拿去，我認為這才是美國最擔心的地方。所以整件事情本來好好的，從日本到德國到美國，這樣的布局，台積電遍布全球，本來是一個好的產業布局，但裡面會有一個漏洞就是如果今天臺灣成為白手套要怎辦？螢幕上的這個是這陣子的新聞，大概是一個多禮拜前3月4號的新聞，就是新加坡破獲中國幫買輝達晶片的白手套，我記得是逮捕3個人左右；然後華爾街日報在3月2號的時候也有特別點名到臺灣，質疑我們是不是成為購買輝達（NVIDIA）伺服器的白手套？這個不是我現在要問的問題，你可以看到我之前的PowerPoint，2024年10月30號的時候我有問部長，有問經濟部，也有問教育部，就是關於這一些交流，還有一些公司成為白手套之後，我們到底有沒有把他們列入管制清單？那時候有算能科技、比特大陸，它背後有華為嘛，那時候我們有跟經濟部的專員討論過，他可能嫉妒、要做更新等等之類的，我認為這可能只是最低階的，因為你今天把它列到產品名單上或者放在出口的管制上可能遠遠不夠，因為這樣並沒有解決假設他們的人來這邊做滲透後把技術偷走要怎麼辦？我去年有提案修正國安法第三條、兩岸條例第九條，都是針對技術竊取特別去做相關的規範。在這邊想要問院長，因為我們去年大概提了10部法律的修法，很多都跟經濟安全有關，但我們現在在等待院版，有些法案一直被藍白卡住，那個沒話講，但有些是在等待院版的出現，所以針對第一個，也就是技術外流這件事情，相關法規範的盤點有沒有可能在這個會期進行？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，謝謝委員。委員提到的重要內容、相關法案，行政院代表政府應該在必要的時候，尤其是現在這個關鍵時刻，拿出政府的態度，弄一個符合現在安全上所需要的版本，這絕對是政府應該做的事情，但是我們希望朝野黨團之間的意見能夠再趨於一致，行政院願意在這個時候跟大家討論以後形成一個共同的版本也可以。"],["沈委員伯洋：這一點就要拜託院長。","部長是不是要補充什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：我們已經要增訂經濟間諜罪了，要來修正兩岸條例，院長也有責成法務部調查局、國安局、陸委會、勞動部及經濟部成立跨部會工作小組，強化機關之間的橫向聯繫，加強查緝相關不法活動。因為我們認為如果不重罰，對經濟安全上來講，確實如委員所指正的，很容易會把這些訊息洩漏出去，一定要透過法務部嚴懲，才會產生效益。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，我覺得這邊講到一個重點，就是假設我們今天要做管制，我們一定要有查緝的量能，如果沒有查緝的量能或沒有回報的機制，等於是擺在那邊，那麼這個經濟安保也不容易建立啦，所以這也是我認為法務部應該要扮演滿重要的角色。","我剛好在2月的時候有去美國聽了一場聽證會，也是在說這件事情，裡面做了幾個建議，第一個，加強出口管制跟投資限制，實施更智慧的貿易限制，這個對臺灣來講還要再做一個轉換，因為晶片本身是放在技術類，不是終端產品，所以單純做這樣的貿易限制可能還不夠完整。第二個，他提到國家級的技術要有一個風險評估單位，日本現在是有一個專責單位從2019年做到現在，是專門在做經濟安保。第三個，要追蹤中國的技術發展。我認為臺灣不管是經濟部、數發部應該有這個能力做當時美方聽證會所提出的這三個建議，這個才是真的投資美國，我們建立了非紅產業鏈，然後又符合相關規範，不是做最基本的資安CMMC的規範這麼簡單而已，而是在整體大方向上跟美國一起協作。","不過這邊我就有點擔心，就是因為剛剛講的技術類的，畢竟晶片是屬於技術類的，我們可以看一下貿易法第十三條、兩岸條例第三十五條的文字，大部分是高科技貨品出口實體管理名單，譬如輸往俄羅斯及白俄羅斯高科技貨品清單，就是國家核心關鍵技術很難直接扣在貿易法跟兩岸條例，所以我覺得這是這個會期我滿重要的工作，既然總統已經在談話中提到，我們針對中國的滲透跟威脅要有越來越多的院版出現嘛，因為剛剛講的是人，我們剛剛提到兩岸條例的修正跟國安法修正是針對人流做修正，這個部分的貿易法跟兩岸條例是針對這些看起來是貨品、物品，但其實我們是要針對技術方面把它涵蓋進去做修正，我覺得這兩個可能都要併行啦。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以總統那天裁示的就是人流、物流、金流、技術有必要做有序的調整，我們也知道，現在也已經要求內控、外控都要做到，什麼東西該進來、不該進來，尤其是我們重要的零組件或晶片要出去、出去到哪裡，對於違規、違法的人，我感覺我們現在法律的嚇阻力不夠、刑度不高，所以效果不佳，我們會從這個方向來著手。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝院長，我希望我們至少從人流、物流這兩個方向都來做立法，希望在這個會期至少能夠討論出一個大方向。","另外，我不知道院長會怎麼想，就像我剛剛一直提到的，以日本為例，就是有一個主責單位，直接就在他們的首長室，管的是全部橫跨每個部門的經濟安全。因為我對這方面有做了一些研究，目前跟經濟安全有關的部門，最重要的當然是經濟部，這沒問題，有產發署，但其實經濟部最近有一部分割到數發部，這是一個。再來國科會會管到我們的核心關鍵技術，陸委會的部分，邱主委已經發現了，馬上就上來了，就是兩岸條例的投審嘛，對不對？外交部的是國際多邊出口管制體制協作，法務部的就是部長剛提到的查緝問題，還有調查中資假借外資去竊取的問題，教育部會有造冊的問題，因對他要造冊我們才知道哪裡要管理，所以就變成有點太過於跨部門了。現在在經濟安全方面，我們要保護國家關鍵基礎技術，幾乎每個部門都有，這就跟之前我們跟國防部詢問到如果唸過解放軍學校的人來到臺灣應該要怎麼辦？後來國防部處理完發現，教育部也要處理，因為這些人的學歷認證到底我們臺灣應該怎麼看待，所以會變成每個層面都會牽涉到那個部分的國家安全。我覺得經濟安全現在也面臨這樣的問題，不知道有沒有可能，我知道用政委直接主責這件事情當然有可能又是國家預算上的一個問題，但是有沒有可能，不管是用一個辦公室或政委或直接由院長去主責整個經濟安全的法制，我們就可以把整個法制建構起來，裡面就可以處理到剛才提到的人流、金流、資訊流跟技術的問題。院長或部長有沒有想要補充這一塊？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們有專責的智庫在研究這個命題。"],["沈委員伯洋：對，有，之前像國科會的DSET也做了很多，但有時候我怕的是什麼？比如說他們叫不動其他部會，因為它牽扯太廣，有時候這個部會做了，但是另一個部會不知道這個事情嚴重性，就會形成一個漏洞，如果能夠有更高的協調機制，對整體的建構會比較好。我知道這其實是一個大規劃，所以不一定現在就必須要給一個答案。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，現狀就是在部會裡面都有內部會議，他們會就他們的目的事業主管去做嚴格的考核。至於由政務委員組成的政務會議，每個禮拜都會召開，在裡面對於重要的、必須拿來大家協力完成的，政務會議是一個很好的平台。我會加強委員所說的這個部分，加強經濟、資通安全上面的考量。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝。因為時間的關係，我剛剛講的都是關鍵基礎技術，我現在想講一下關鍵基礎設施，最近因為資安案件頻傳，就是常常有單位被攻擊，例如最近發生的馬偕醫院與彰基醫院的資料外洩、被駭客攻擊，我想這個大家應該很熟悉，我就不多說了。畢竟醫院也算是關鍵基礎設施的一環，至少我們的數發部是能夠去幫忙的，就是他們要怎麼建置資安、要怎麼防止未來的攻擊。","現在我有一點比較擔心的是，院長應該知道最近立法院通過一個公益揭弊者保護法，應該知道這部法律吧？這部法律還沒有施行，但這部法律很特別，今天你要揭弊的話，可以跟民意代表揭弊，可以跟媒體業者揭弊，也可以跟法人登記的公益團體揭弊，法人登記的公益團體在這邊指的當然就是公益揭弊者保護協會，在過去曾經擔任過這個保護協會理事長的就是我把照片放大的這一位，大家可以看一下他俊俏的臉龐。所以在這件事情上面，對我來講，簡單來說，你可以帶你的資料到他們的網站，然後你可以去爆料，你可以去吹哨，但我去看它的網站之後我就發現，它的網頁的原始碼裡面埋了這一個，我覺得這個部長看到可能就會很熟悉了。"],["黃部長彥男：它連到一個外面的網站，那個就值得懷疑了，因為那是一個增加的script，這個script可以去做很多事情，所以應該要去再檢測一下，是有點值得去……就是這個我會擔心，看到這個script，如果你真的在講那個script……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，部長，因為這個一看就知道，一看就知道它外連到其他的網站，但為什麼它外連到其他的網站？它其實是被埋了惡意程式。我們就特別去查它導到那一個網站之後，那個惡意程式到底是什麼，結果它竟然是可以去辨識數位足跡，去鎖定你的身分。比如說今天是法務部長要來吹哨，然後它根據他的數位足跡發現，這個是我平常鎖定的那一個人，再跳出病毒讓他去下載，去入侵他的電腦，然後去取得他的權限，然後用病毒感染的方式去竊取這些資料，而這一個手法完全符合中國APT24的手法。這個對我來說就是個問題嘛，等於政府立法指定的一個網站，這個網站可以任由中國在上面蒐集資訊，那你不是通過一個法在幫助中國來蒐集全臺灣人民的個資嗎？","這種狀況不是只有在這個個案喔，比如說今天消基會，它也是民間團體，但是它也是我們政府認可的團體，它也會有個資，電商也會有個資，所以法定指定的或者擁有大量個資的電商，它完全就會是我們個資保護的一個漏洞，但是我們數發部卻沒有辦法直接去管理。所以有關這個部分，目前來講，針對這一方面，其實我有跟數發部討論過幾次，不知道部長有沒有一個更全面的方法，針對這種事情，我們未來到底該怎麼辦？"],["黃部長彥男：第一個，當然我們現在有一個資安法，我們希望能夠趕快通過……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，沒錯。"],["黃部長彥男：通過資安法之後，當然就是我們納管CI跟一些我們的政府，還有地方政府……"],["沈委員伯洋：範圍要加大。"],["黃部長彥男：至於民間的這些東西，我們先通過這一版的資安法以後，我們下一個修法可能還要對民間有一些重大的，會收集到很多個資的單位，要再做進一步的管理，這個我想應該要進行。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，那這個就拜託部長，我們一起把資通安全管理法再來修第二次。"],["卓院長榮泰：資安上面我們絕對不允許他開後門，也不允許他打開我們家的門，進來我們這裡拿取我們任何資料，我們要求數發部馬上針對這個部分，調查之後思考該如何處置。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，沒問題，謝謝院長。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈伯洋委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來我們請登記第43位張智倫委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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優良 演技十足不知道你有沒有一百港幣我看你的演講是很厲害的你以前出來我就沒辦法吃"},{"start":95.47,"end":102.856,"text":"郭委員我覺得那不是演講,我是在說老實話演講就是演講你如果說老實話,待會我就說給你聽什麼叫老實話我也知道藍絲就是債庫啦債民說很多人三不足啦光你吃就把錢拿來而已我為什麼要這樣說"},{"start":122.694,"end":134.685,"text":"因為你們是公保門,每天修理的每天整理的都要你們負責嘛,對不對?但是案子的過程中,有很多說法不能開的有一些不便的啦,吃虧的無所不知啦所以我們緊張,我跟報告委員"},{"start":145.643,"end":152.328,"text":"我又跟台南市國民黨的黨團議會 跟某黨的黨團因為昨日是在地的議員嘛我們再去四五百的災民 副市長 五人的局長都在那邊跟人家說中央?我告訴你 我是很感謝你喔我說中央你還沒算一個數字 你是中央什麼的你就看那間清清的 看這間八十八里八百還沒數字"},{"start":177.112,"end":188.256,"text":"中央要怎麼處理啊還是好知道當我熱情做起床的時候0206那43億的省份冬季時要去做土壤移化我就把它凍起來了就剩下這10百億風太開開了,還有10萬億就只剩下這100億可以用了沒有時間吃飯"},{"start":203.032,"end":211.476,"text":"你還跟那些財民說 唉唷 兩家夭壽喔那行政議長說你們才有這麼多錢 都沒有衛生紙還能贏啊叫我把這支衛生紙趕快帶給你先贏啊他說你比他們更慘啊我說沒有啊 你們每天都這麼慘他說沒有啊 行政議比我們更慘說記者要來採訪喔 要扁手就要自己找衛生紙"},{"start":228.49,"end":245.02,"text":"還要我加一句話說什麼拜託你拜託到議長還有另外一槍把他送給監察院說監察院不可以行動對啊對啊所以世民都有看所以我說你做好演講表現不錯議長你打起來我是對你寵問忌諱嘛到目前我也是寵問忌諱"},{"start":257.608,"end":263.772,"text":"早期東華運動就是說 衝突 特約有一點點進步但是你這次來齁衝突 衝突 再衝突當然 你如果要說 哇 這無聲無息啦我是犯事 把你滾啦 我對你義勇真尊敬啦"},{"start":286.613,"end":289.154,"text":"一百四年,我們國家的工資是一條七千七百六十幾億一百五年是一條八千兩百二十四億一百六年是一條八千四百十一億這是臨時做議定的時候"},{"start":317.332,"end":322.015,"text":"從前來做議長是一條九千六百六十九億到現在所議長來講是兩條空七百七十六億所議長做到一百十一年但今年議長來講兩條六千八百九十一億到現在在幾年來是兩條八千五百十九億"},{"start":344.653,"end":350.155,"text":"今年有省起來有差不多兩條高清高霸八十六條 差不多中間三條啦你一直挨被叫 這樣也沒辦法 這樣也沒辦法 這樣也沒辦法 這樣也沒辦法你在這大中間 給我打電話給我收音的地方沒有嘛你給我請到老總統 說你是不是肥民的中間 跟我說 欸 總統啊"},{"start":374.688,"end":384.217,"text":"你以前一條高清規則是怎麼做的,你靠我做這樣,做得不錯餐廳說你做行政移動,做得不錯一條高清規則呢現在搞了你兩條高清規則,你說沒辦法做這點我是覺得說,你不是沒辦法做因為你總要靜地化,這樣可笑了我過去對你的淫脈,不是這樣"},{"start":402.304,"end":410.33,"text":"所以 很多人在跟我說 花臨到尖了 我說沒意義啦如果來到國會的典禁 大家要再好嘴小噴不是改革事情的方式啦我記一個例子給你看讓我們普京來做美國總統的時候 現在有二十個在我們統國有省的時候他這樣堆堆在國會 國會的中間"},{"start":434.003,"end":445.252,"text":"馬斯克這樣把他查了,他再拜託人家把自己政府內的巫生不懂的、浪費的、消謀的,隆重把他抓起來這樣刪差不多兩條的美金啦,送下來過去,老總統在這事件的時候,你問單叔叔,說得對我在俄羅斯公寓,災情的紀錄不錯"},{"start":463.661,"end":474.185,"text":"現在也是一樣現在也是一樣現在也是一樣現在也是一樣現在也是一樣現在也是一樣現在也是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣現在還是一樣"},{"start":493.179,"end":502.885,"text":"他說一戶戶要給他發五千塊美金五千塊美金 第二部份 五千塊美金給多少台幣十六萬我最近認識這個美國朋友 我感覺他越來越有魄力我在新加坡也有一個朋友姓吳 叫做吳孫宅"},{"start":522.628,"end":526.971,"text":"嘿嘿 新加坡人 一個人要發兩萬澳門稅金撤銷 17人來問一個澳門的國民 發四萬的代表所以 國民黨的提案 今年撤銷差不多五千三百億"},{"start":547.554,"end":575.225,"text":"2年2年2年2年3年呢 隆重啊 手手的稅金出的來自要有1票 空600 60億所以在你的手裡呢 能夠應用到很多啦 應該找到好好的參賽者來探討一下我們台出 環水移民 台灣台出市到大理會 一人大小漢堡輪都而已一萬"},{"start":579.339,"end":595.564,"text":"這樣就要兩千三百四十億這是合情合理但是我知道你們不可能讓我這麼好睡你國民黨拿一萬你可能會加一萬二萬五我六官幾成錢又賺到多少了改欠的欠改欠的欠給人民有一點幸福感有時候要扭轉利"},{"start":605.598,"end":620.148,"text":"會去死,我待會會再跟你說你現在的願意度到哪裡,到副成員頭到尾,整座庭內,我們的臨環政策,很快都破壞你補台鐵,我聽不下去為什麼說補一千億,他就不會給我們企業,你胡說八道的他給我們補三百一千億,給我們企業企業失敗"},{"start":633.391,"end":648.601,"text":"他都說有風波啊他在做風吹發電啊你再補他一千億也沒意義啦一千億補他 沒補他 現在說要把他賠錢 棄價是各位 我們的民生喔要結納差不多一百塊 七百二百塊沒有關係啦 你就給人民一人給發一萬啦喔 他們的納電錢過頭過頭啦補助台電 它不斷地上升"},{"start":662.165,"end":682.137,"text":"這件事 公典 我想告結這就是人員政策的不同 無心不作啦公主公有說 無藥索 無減消離藥索這不得 減消離這台數不行吃雞都沒辦法嘛 但是這不是你的政策啊你人家吃不來 你想要扭轉"},{"start":693.305,"end":716.665,"text":"也再十個月來,沒看到看到你流轉天坤的效力,因為什麼?你專門在釣魚屋島這最可笑在這裡啦用一點精神,大家來講大家來想想,沒有那個做不夠的啦你如果做不夠,就回去問蘇貞昌、問賴清德、問單健營"},{"start":719.62,"end":747.638,"text":"說是怎麼做 你家的過去可以做啊我倒平台現在沒辦法讓人家做我現在來跟你說這個打雜 你現在剛才在看齁 跟人家看得這麼辛苦我可以講一件就好嗎 跟你報告一件事你剛才在說有算 今年有算差不多三條嘛有年假擔保法嘛 是啊是啊有時候我沒辦法做 因為你知不知道這三條裡面有兩千八百控六億是有年沒的"},{"start":749.849,"end":765.422,"text":"新增四項 我跟你說啦新增也好啦 股價也好啦 叫做協商啦你沒來協商 說這麼多百 你都沒聽到啊2800億的新增四項 這個新增四項如果把它補起來宗教在這裡也跟你說啦 有自愛難行 冠軍上來奔飛"},{"start":772.941,"end":789.324,"text":"你現在總統也不會說話我在副議之前就說了總統也不會說話 沒關係來那會說一遍啦你如果說這樣我就說會說一遍嘛所以很牽連 我說他的新政事項2800億不應該用這種國會新選的手勢去欺騙人家我沒有欺騙你說我你下鄉我也下鄉啦下禮拜我來台南我歡迎你來下鄉你下鄉我也下鄉嘛你來現場聽 我可以報告清楚沒問題啊"},{"start":802.308,"end":802.776,"text":"你害我 我也害你"},{"start":805.134,"end":813.496,"text":"會說會人 不會在說地方不是你說你的 我說我的不是這樣有要說沒有要說 韓院長請你解釋我告訴你 你也是我習近平的前輩"},{"start":834.298,"end":841.645,"text":"你都沒在接電話,我打給你你也沒在接我打給你變詐騙電話我叫你詐騙電話所以我沒在接啦我不顯示號碼就對了,好來你覺得NCC有來嗎?你來,這一定可能沒什麼了解,但是他們需要"},{"start":862.915,"end":891.161,"text":"有MC就是說,當機時NCC是很好,要讓電話公司業務開墾更好你聽得懂嗎?這是電信主義法的時候的例子所以當機時有這個阿台電信跟台灣之星電信公司結果因為他們覺得大哥大不釋放但是現在我們所有的"},{"start":892.666,"end":899.848,"text":"電信公司都有事化 有大割大你覺得你同期時開放這個業務就對了 告訴我我們家有一個電話 事化我要卡出來 我卡給卓院長 我給你顯示賴清德的來電號碼顯示賴清德的大割大 可以嗎 不可以可以 不可以"},{"start":914.653,"end":938.171,"text":"跟委員報告 那我們的號碼 就是互聯辦法裡頭有規定必須要有透通信 必須要 撥的號碼跟售貨方號碼必須要一致 那如果他是選擇兩段式的撥接的方式的話那是有存在一些灰色地帶你看 贏了 詐騙那麼多 會當作人不做 這樣才過年要死"},{"start":941.292,"end":948.359,"text":"我告訴你,他拋得很輕鬆我告訴你,你警察拋得很輕鬆我告訴你,他拋得很輕鬆我告訴你,你警察拋得很輕鬆我告訴你,你警察拋得很輕鬆"},{"start":962.349,"end":973.253,"text":"我用集團 而且他為什麼 同樣我這個電話喔我今天卡 你知道照片嗎 我不知道能不能改造韓國瑜的電話號碼顯示啦 電顯示 但是我是用這個電話卡的他只要每天申請 每天申請報 檢查官 檢證書 書店有來嗎內政部長"},{"start":990.282,"end":994.925,"text":"社群網路電話部分我們現在正在處理下個月大概就會有一些網組跟語音警視"},{"start":1015.225,"end":1028.472,"text":"主委你怎麼不講話 我也先喝 詐騙的手段詐騙的手段一直在更新啦 我要跟著上速度講這麼嚴重 是是是 我跟你講 這真是所有現時出來的詐騙人他靠你的電話都記 你看到的訊息都記他搬我們家用電話 我們不吃肉啦你也不吃 我也不吃肉 你聽到嗎 除非我們家的電話啦"},{"start":1041.721,"end":1050.669,"text":"所以他現在說你敢顯示是大誇大的辯護大小人就叫他拚了你看我們三個拚了,看多少就好了所以我不是在跟你借錢,我是在說要怎麼免費,免費還要有啊有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有,有所以"},{"start":1066.567,"end":1077.07,"text":"這就是我們電信裡面給的整個叫電信自由法單純電話這回的法律專修你這樣就不會在整個這件事都收拾起來 沒意義啦這段 保釋到那個詐騙集團警察官跟警察查查查 查到這個電話裡查到了 後來是上車 他還給你換一支電話"},{"start":1094.002,"end":1107.597,"text":"又換一支電話 兩天可以換一倍你不知道啊你你不知道的 你不提供給我你不提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我 沒提供給我"},{"start":1115.828,"end":1142.591,"text":"感謝委員這個提示 我想在這個初大上要更加進步 這開始是唯一不然我們沒辦法來援助人民對我們的期待所以我們來嚴防這樣的方式 一定要馬上找出方式來各位來 把本意都給我了你如果真的拖一段路 你要給我求我沒辦法 沒辦法 你們這麼高人喔我今天講這個就是 明明現在進行式的"},{"start":1146.241,"end":1161.256,"text":"現在進行是啊你有沒有感覺是各位我要求我們所有的部委有關的部委馬上提出一個因為這個看起來這個行為來看我們是既然了解他的行為我們就要想出對策"},{"start":1163.186,"end":1179.456,"text":"我面臨體度對峙了我現在是跟你說這各位 我的意思是說 你們如果真的好玩等這各位今天全國的人民都聽到這種情報 他們都有每天收到這個詐騙的電話你看 他的內心是多痛 你知道嗎 原來政府是可以作動的我不敢說昨天早上沒有詐騙但是一定有好的工作 我們要做啦好 再來喔"},{"start":1193.305,"end":1211.077,"text":"這一點就是我要說的留學生的問題很可憐,我們自己賣,人還是法國的年輕人不要這樣一百零二年,我們經過的學生差不多三四萬人,你知道嗎?同期是2013年高中生,來我們這裡讀高中的,九百三十六個"},{"start":1221.633,"end":1239.84,"text":"九百三十六個,一百零二年的時候,在鄉下,在鄉下挖掘的那個是高中生啊,這上面是大專生啊,所以大專生是正常的行動嘛,你看挖掘的這個高中生,一百零二年是九百三十六個,一百三十年耶,"},{"start":1244.162,"end":1252.506,"text":"變成境外的大學生 學生當中是九萬一千的但是高中生對九百三十六個變成一萬三千的讓高中生來我們台灣留學的這支 天下十幾你不知道看的這批報告很清楚這叫做血汗 跟血汗鑽石一樣"},{"start":1273.424,"end":1290.678,"text":"那他就去做工啦 他不是來託車阿麻吃麻不吃 吃吃不喝麻建交合作他去台北跟山東那些核心齁說這三十幾間行都佔了六島的台灣一流的!裡面有人來台灣託過車我們以前的託車是不是很多叫聲有啊 齁人來台灣託過車說 啊這貨貨我比較不要聽過啦不要聽過啦"},{"start":1301.516,"end":1306.838,"text":"打起來的台階是要貼上去的結果給這核心裡面來的建教合作那一種教學合作就對工廠去好聽說去實施我跟你們說我三十幾年前在做工廠外銷我有一些工作在發霉的感覺在做"},{"start":1327.961,"end":1329.323,"text":"你這個叫做血汗工廠我的產品他沒有要買我不是要問他"},{"start":1343.387,"end":1361.632,"text":"因為這過程因為你剛提到的這部分我讓你們記一下因為那篇報導事實上是一個偽專題我敢在這邊解說因為有三個大錯誤一個是引用錯誤來啦你聽我說你聽我說啦我沒用你的主要我沒用你的話啦我不是在看你探討你跟他們說什麼他們說什麼啦不是這些學生其實是很認真來學習的啦"},{"start":1373.015,"end":1378.878,"text":"不要給他貼標籤啦你看,如果是這樣,不然我們還不來港中查看嗎?我們都有去看,我們都開始去,各個企業去看你們去看都漂亮啦你們也可以去企業看你們去看都冷革的啦,他就...我是他媳婦出來的"},{"start":1393.745,"end":1412.101,"text":"我是要跟你說 奉旨給美國這個領款 我們簽的領款都公佈了尤其這裏面有卡到美生年我們很重視領款的問題 所以集體不準領號就很好 你這樣做 做得很好我這個處理 我要讓他知道當然我 賈青傑 我不在乎 我不跟你說你怎樣對不對"},{"start":1421.171,"end":1430.183,"text":"因為他們說這個問題最主要是社會關注就如果跟他有主觀、有關、尤其沒有,請你們出來說明查好清楚我們再來對話嘛"},{"start":1434.167,"end":1452.203,"text":"是真假真假,但是真假不是壞事查國外申啦讓他好好,我可以修律,工場有工人請,好事啦,好事查國外申對我們的勞力也很滿意,政績很好,我給你額熱一下這都是多贏的局面這可以先來做副議長,來"},{"start":1463.066,"end":1467.608,"text":"市委員的鼓勵,我們會持續的團隊努力補充加油補充加油民進黨裡面最近這個網絡負聲量你是算筆數,你是第二名算筆論,你又抄襪寡見名"},{"start":1489.943,"end":1517.815,"text":"你說變第一名,所以這就是我對你不甘的所在你過去不是這樣的人前幾天你沒有議我你還選過第一名的曹新成你看他到69.98%而已結果你73.87%我現在想你探討的就是說政策跟施政到底你是有什麼正義的你下去跟你們所有的安排跟政策的推動"},{"start":1520.285,"end":1532.828,"text":"你有沒有感覺,你不是只挑戰在野動民,你還在挑戰人民挑戰人民的底線讓它失敗,一直在在地上,三二四,四二五我們台灣,坦白說,教育的破棄,大家對民主的作用都很侵犯差不多我們每一個人身上一定都有民主的DNA"},{"start":1546.394,"end":1568.646,"text":"但你卡不住地上沒有,你都替中國講話,你都統會有的沒的這位主席,你不是對我說,但是最好保我所謂的保育手段,不可以在我身上固定你去等他問多少天,看他對我這樣說的時候,我什麼反應人齁,政敵利益可以增,就像君主愛宅出一幼的一樣"},{"start":1575.592,"end":1604.381,"text":"正在你的領口特長處不可以出政局敢競 鬼怪 賣古董所以你並不是說有做什麼不對啊所以變成你贏這麼多人才但是事情沒兩點出來你給北省五位說 啊他都沒人才所以出來跟人才那些都好處小朋友我告訴你也不是 這裡都人才啊像這個郭新聞我們台南的"},{"start":1606.571,"end":1621.363,"text":"像中央議員一樣像這個主委這種都不信的啊 我跟你說的事情這個暫時都沒中 這種全靠的啊搞到一個沒人知道的但是說給你這個竟然想要揶揄你這個人才說所做的事情沒辦法突顯出來就變成沒辦法突顯到你倒下去的情形"},{"start":1634.824,"end":1653.372,"text":"出來的時候都變負面了 整個都想的啊這樣不是對你來說不公平 又做不得我可以很虛心來接受所有的批評 但是你看那個運動部長爭議 後面現在鄭士忠 那就假的事情了鬧那個爭議鬧那個爭議 鬧那個爭議運動部長爭議 鄭士忠鬧那個爭議"},{"start":1664.338,"end":1686.432,"text":"我告訴你 能源政策失能 我們現在能源政策穩定的找多元綠能阿伯這條我給你解釋 能源政策你解釋下去只要一點啦 就是說 如果只要 柏惟委員的意見就是說我如果把河山廠賣給園藝就不會失能不是這樣 我告訴你 我為什麼要跟你說吃緊都不會破碗 當然是"},{"start":1689.759,"end":1715.376,"text":"國民黨主席說 以核養力我們都需要綠能但是我們知道 綠能起來不太快速啊所以 維新婦人繼續在全世界 婦人電廠40年後期都要壓20年偏偏啊 整棟維就2.25年 會婦人的家屬這個新珠牌啊 我當然不期待你去突破但是"},{"start":1717.177,"end":1719.221,"text":"李鴻麟已經回應博弈了博弈你已經達成宿命了"},{"start":1725.171,"end":1745.531,"text":"現在就能夠叫經濟部 叫內建宜 免費加費 請他就可以選擇我跟你說 乎一乎二乎三 你要知道的原因有多大因為現在是暫停 要保存五年 所以那都沒問題在Token 基礎安全的狀況下"},{"start":1747.213,"end":1755.785,"text":"我們希望可以快速恢復這12%的用電,這樣對你未來的市場,越好投資,那時候你就一虎一鳥電了我現在新的想法,減碳先行,目標淨零"},{"start":1765.319,"end":1776.326,"text":"我告訴你 你的金銀碳牌做不夠 有什麼你回去背叛先行啊因為我們現在看到澳門所有的規定我們都忘記了但是你開始在做啦包括這個彭啟民 開始 有一個好的開始 OK"},{"start":1789.954,"end":1805.019,"text":"我同意雖然現在沒有選擇但是這次是一個好的開始面對世界的交流那麼世界的交流就是希望會有符令美國、日本、澳洲都可以認知符令正確的選擇"},{"start":1809.278,"end":1830.043,"text":"希望你們的年可以聽到你開啟福林用電的好聲音好消息能不能政策核能你就贊成我對不對你開空 沒有人安裝我還要贊成我安裝我是沒有贊成的這個命題是有問題的嘛我虛心接受 繼續努力謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":440,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（16時30分）請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["謝委員龍介：院長辛苦了，我從災區來的，大家都問你災民的事情，今天剛好都是我們臺南的。辛苦了，楠西來的！"],["卓院長榮泰：楠西跟這個……為什麼用衛生紙？"],["謝委員龍介：我講給你聽，但是先感謝你對臺南的照顧，感謝！"],["卓院長榮泰：這不用感謝，這是應該的，大家都應該這樣做，對受到災害的國人都應該這樣做。"],["謝委員龍介：但是他們都問不到重點，災民還沒安置、還沒估出來，你怎麼知道要給他多少錢，你也沒辦法……"],["卓院長榮泰：所以時間……"],["謝委員龍介：你剛剛答應月底，我跟你說，很危險！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們是去看。"],["謝委員龍介：月底要去看，要講清楚。"],["卓院長榮泰：我月底一定會去……"],["謝委員龍介：如果可以解決我就稱讚你，感謝你！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝你稱讚我。"],["謝委員龍介：你實在是表現很好、優良、演技十足！院長，我真的不知道你也有這項功夫，我看你在演講真的很厲害，如果你早點出來，我看我就沒飯吃了。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我覺得我那不是演講，我是在講老實話。"],["謝委員龍介：怎麼不是演講？那就是在演講，你如果講老實話，等一下我就講給你聽什麼叫做老實話。","我早上在楠西，也就是災區，災民說很多人送物資，只有你謝龍介拿現金來，我為什麼要這樣說？因為你們是公部門，該幫忙修理、整理的都是你們要負責，對不對？但是在安置的過程中有很多公款不能花的，有一些不便的、吃食等等的無所不至，所以我們儘量……"],["卓院長榮泰：對，有所限制。"],["謝委員龍介：到半個月前，我還跟臺南市議會國民黨黨團及無黨團結聯盟黨團，因為周奕齊就是在地的議員，我們過去的時候，四、五百個災民、副市長及五、六個局長都在那裡，只有在期盼中央！我是很感謝你，我說你如果不算一個數字是要中央做什麼，你不就要趕快清點，看這一間是80、120還是180，結果也沒有數字，中央要怎麼幫你處理？幸好在賴清德當市長的時候，0206那43億的善款當初要去做土壤液化，我就擋住了，剛好剩18億，風災花一花還有十多億，剛好這次可以用，不然真的很悽慘！","結果災民跟我說什麼？他說「龍介，夭壽喔！行政院長說你們把預算砍到都沒有衛生紙可以用」，叫我把這一車衛生紙趕快載來給你們先用，他說你們比他們還慘！我說沒有啊，你們地震這麼慘；他說沒有，行政院比我們還慘，記者如果要來採訪，上廁所還要自己帶衛生紙！他還教我一句話，你拜託卓院長，還有另外一車送給監察院，說監察院也沒有衛生紙！"],["卓院長榮泰：我正好要跟委員說，要送一些去監察院。"],["謝委員龍介：對啊，所以災民都有看到，所以我說你很會演講、表現不錯。","院長，你剛上任的時候我對你充滿期待，到目前我還是充滿期待，早期黨外運動就是衝突、妥協、有一點進步，但你近一年來的表現是衝突、衝突、再衝突！當然你如果要說這個預算無所不至，我是不好意思跟你吵，我對你一向很尊敬，104年我們公務預算是……你不用看那些，那些還沒有到，等一下跟你說，104年我們公務預算是一兆七千七百六十幾億，105年是1兆8,224億，106年是1兆8,411億，這是林全在當院長的時候，到清德兄當院長時是1兆9,669億，到蘇院長來接的時候是2兆776億，蘇院長做到111年，陳建仁院長來接的時候是2兆6,891億，到卓院長去年來的時候是2兆8,519億，今年預算差不多2兆9,986億，差不多將近3兆，你一直唉唉叫說這樣沒辦法做，那樣也沒辦法做，你在這段期間有沒有打電話給蘇院長？沒有嘛！你有沒有請教賴總統，就是你跟他會面時有沒有問總統他那時候一兆九千多億是怎麼做的，他怎麼有辦法做得這麼好呢？謝龍介說他當行政院長做得不錯，一兆九千多億，現在交給你的時候是二兆九千多億，你說沒辦法做，我覺得你不是沒辦法做，院長現在政治化了，這樣可惜了，因為我過去對你的認知不是這樣，所以很多人在跟我說為什麼不修理你，我說沒意義，如果來到國會殿堂，大家還要「戽水相噴」，這不是解決事情的方式。","我舉一個例子給你看，川普當美國總統是在1月20日上任，剛好是我們通過預算的時候，他這樣短短一個多月的時間，馬斯克查下去，他還拜託人家把自己政府裡面預算有不當的、浪費的、消磨的部分全部把它抓起來，刪了差不多兩兆美金，省下來，過去賴總統在當市長的時候，你問陳淑姿主計長，我一直誇獎說他財政紀律不錯，怎麼現在卻不會做了。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在也是一樣。"],["謝委員龍介：現在卻不會做。"],["卓院長榮泰：也是一樣……"],["謝委員龍介：我幫你省這麼多錢，美國總統川普這裡刪預算、那裡刪預算，當然會有人罵，所以不滿意度看起來有57%，但是他了說一句話，選民在等，美國鄉親在期待，他說一戶要發5,000塊美金，5,000塊美金這麼好，院長知不知道5,000塊的美金是臺幣多少？16萬，我最近認識的這位美國朋友，我覺得他越來越有魄力，我在新加坡也認識一個朋友姓黃，叫做黃循財，要給每一個新加坡人2萬，澳門稅金超收17年來，每一個澳門國民發4萬臺幣，所以國民黨才會提案，去年超收差不多5,300億，2021、2022、2023年超收的稅金剩下來的錢還有1兆660億，所以你手裡可以運用的錢很多，應該坐下來好好跟在野黨探討一下。我們當初提出還稅於民，臺灣人民從新生兒到120歲，無論年齡大小每個人都領1萬，這樣剛好是2,340億，這是合情合理的，但是我知道你們不可能讓我們這麼好過，國民黨提議1萬，你可能會加成1萬2或1萬5，我樂觀其成。錢再賺就有了，該省的省、該花的花，讓人民有一點點幸福感，有時候會扭轉你的氣勢，我等一下會再跟你說你現在的滿意度以及負聲量到哪裡。","現在回過頭來說，我們的能源政策是「呷緊弄破碗」，你們說要補助台電我聽不下去，為什麼？說補助它1,000億，它就不會漲電價，這根本是胡說八道！我們補助它3次1,000億，結果它卻漲價漲4次，它講的話都飄在風中，因為它在做風力發電啊！你再補助它1,000億也沒意義啦！不補助它1,000億，它現在說要漲老百姓的電價，一個月的民生用電差不多要多繳100元至120元。沒有關係啦！人民一人發1萬，讓他們來繳電費就「過頭過臉」了。補助台電它卻不圖上進，造成光電官商勾結，這就是能源政策的不當，務實不足啦！孔子曾說：無欲速，無見小利。欲速則不達，見小利則大事不成。「呷緊弄破碗」嘛！但這不是你的政策，你接任之後想要扭轉，不過這10個月來都沒有看到，看不到你扭轉乾坤的效力，為什麼？因為你著眼在朝野惡鬥，最可惜的就在這裡。用一點精神，大家來討論、大家來協商，沒有做不到的，你如果做不到，就回去問蘇貞昌、問賴清德、問陳建仁看看要怎麼做，為什麼他們過去可以做，而卓榮泰現在卻沒辦法做？","我現在來跟你討論打詐，你剛才這樣看可能覺得很有趣……"],["卓院長榮泰：我可以說一樣就好嗎？跟你報告一件事情。"],["謝委員龍介：好，你說。"],["卓院長榮泰：你剛才提到預算，今年的預算差不多3兆，比去年增加一點。"],["謝委員龍介：是啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：為什麼我們不能做？委員，你知道這3兆裡面有2,806億是去年沒有的，那是新增事項。"],["謝委員龍介：我告訴你，無論新增也好、舊減也好，都應該要協商。第一、你沒有來協商。第二……"],["卓院長榮泰：講那麼多次你都沒聽到啊！其中有2,806億的新增事項，這些新增事項如果把它扣除……"],["謝委員龍介：總召在這裡也跟你們說了，如果窒礙難行就趕快送來本會，現在總統也還沒公告……"],["卓院長榮泰：這我在覆議之前就說了。"],["謝委員龍介：總統也還沒公告啊！沒關係……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個……"],["謝委員龍介：那個可以討論啦！你這樣講，我就跟你說那可以討論嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：很顯然我說的新增事項2,806億，委員還是……"],["謝委員龍介：你不應該用國會這種神聖的數字去欺騙百姓。"],["卓院長榮泰：我沒有欺騙。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你說，你下鄉，我也下鄉啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：下禮拜我如果去臺南，歡迎你來……"],["謝委員龍介：你下鄉，我也下鄉嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：你來現場聽，我可以報告得清楚一點。"],["謝委員龍介：沒問題啊！你下鄉，我也下鄉，賣花的說花紅、賣茶的說茶香……"],["卓院長榮泰：你不能說新增出來的兩千多億是……"],["謝委員龍介：並不是你說你的、我說我的……"],["卓院長榮泰：不是這樣。"],["謝委員龍介：朝小野大，在國會我們多數就是事實，但是你不來協商，不來協商還和我們「戽水相噴」……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員……"],["謝委員龍介：不幸啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：我有沒有要來協商，韓院長清清楚楚。"],["謝委員龍介：請問你有沒有接過詐騙電話？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有。"],["謝委員龍介：你都沒在接電話？對，我打給你，你也都不接。"],["卓院長榮泰：我以為是詐騙電話，我當然不敢接啊！"],["謝委員龍介：我打給你變成詐騙電話？"],["卓院長榮泰：我以為是詐騙電話，所以我不敢接啊！"],["謝委員龍介：我沒顯示號碼就對了？"],["卓院長榮泰：對。"],["謝委員龍介：NCC有來嗎？這個問題院長可能不太了解，但是很需要，FMC就是當時NCC好意要讓電信公司業務開拓得更好，你聽得懂嗎？這就是電信自由化時的產物，所以當時是為了亞太電信跟台灣之星這些電信公司，結果因為他們只有大哥大，沒有市話，但是現在我們所有的電信公司都有市話、有大哥大。你知道你們當時開放這個業務，假如我家有一支電話，市話啦，我要打出去，打給卓院長，來電號碼卻顯示賴清德的大哥大，可不可以？"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，我們的號碼在互聯辦法都有規定，必須要有透通性，撥的號碼跟受話方的號碼必須要一致，如果它是選擇兩段式撥接方式的話，是有存在一些灰色地帶。"],["謝委員龍介：你看，院長，詐騙那麼多，可以做的不做，檢察官抓得要死，法院卻判那麼輕，法官說你們檢察官做的筆錄就說車手也是被騙去當車手的。部長，我跟你說，我現在電話打出去，我打給你的時候顯示的是你太太的電話號碼，你知道嗎？院長，有嚴重嗎？而且詐騙集團他們是怎麼樣？一樣是我這支電話，我今天打，你知道是詐騙了，明天我的來電顯示可以改成韓國瑜的電話號碼，但是我是用這支電話打的，他只要每天申請、每天申請就行。檢察官、警政署……今天署長有來嗎？"],["主席：內政部長……"],["謝委員龍介：這整個你們要去查，就要怎麼樣？中華電信就會叫你來公文、要現金啦，一筆裡面多少錢、多少錢，民間還會配合，不然民間的就要換了，你要查這支，這個要辦案，我趕快把資料給你。"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：跟委員報告，涉及到網路電話的部分，我們現在正在處理。"],["謝委員龍介：你不要跟我說正在處理，我現在……"],["陳代理主任委員崇樹：下個月大概就會有一些攔阻跟語音警示。"],["謝委員龍介：不是啦！主委，你現在跟我說這個……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我也承認詐騙的手法……"],["謝委員龍介：院長，我們來對話，就是說……"],["卓院長榮泰：詐騙的手法一直在更新，我們要跟得上速度。"],["謝委員龍介：這麼嚴重！"],["卓院長榮泰：是、是、是。"],["謝委員龍介：我跟你說真的，所有顯示出來詐騙的，他打給你們的電話都是假的，你看到的顯示都是假的，一般我們的家用電話，我們不接了啦！你不接，我也不接了，你聽得懂嗎？除非是我們家的電話，所以他現在都把你改成顯示大哥大的電話，大人、小孩都被騙了，你看我們的詐騙件數有多少就好了，所以我不是在跟你爭論，我是在說要怎麼面對，對症下藥啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["謝委員龍介：「食著藥，青草一葉；食毋著藥，人參一石」，你聽得懂嗎？所以現在就是說你要怎麼讓二類電信回歸到電信自由化，單純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為什麼很多人說為什麼災水那個零一二一的這個部分看起來好像沒有什麼太多的傷亡但是為什麼污損這麼嚴重主要有75%的這個老屋的存在所以都是老屋比較居多再加上這一次地震的強度我給院長參考一下在花蓮的部分它雖然是7.2度然後"},{"start":112.642,"end":137.968,"text":"0121雖然是6.4度但是就觀測站的數字Gale這個數字來說的話也就是所謂的地動加速度的部分你去看看垂直向的最高的這個數字在南溪國小是569比起花蓮測站的209是兩倍多另外的部分呢以東西向最高的部分的Gale數據南溪的部分是861"},{"start":139.793,"end":150.095,"text":"然後花蓮的部分只有256也就是南溪是花蓮的3.5倍的這種地動加速度再加上呢 房子老"},{"start":150.936,"end":164.987,"text":"那老房子又多以至於污損特別的嚴重截至到今天早上我統計的數字紅單的部分有500件黃單的部分是1556件未貼單的部分是2065件總共加起來是4121件的污損4121件面對4121件的污損的部分"},{"start":181.001,"end":195.426,"text":"要如何去處理當然陳金德政委也提到說要希望台南的善款先優先處理但是依照目前為止目前留下來的0206的善款12億其實是不夠的"},{"start":199.207,"end":218.157,"text":"那不夠的原因是這樣如果說你處理黃單跟紅單或許還OK但是如果把未貼單的部分算下去的話就很困難這是目前為止我聽到最多的聲音這是跟院長說明一下一個民間的污損第二個是公共設施的部分"},{"start":219.008,"end":243.03,"text":"公設室的部分呢一個是南西的這個陸陶洋的客家聚落的修繕這個中央部會都去過了第二個是學校的部分是南藝大的這個校舍的修繕大概1.6億南西國中也希望原地重建學校的部分第三個是南西市場的部分的原地重建第四個是四大農會的一個修復的工程"},{"start":244.051,"end":259.983,"text":"而這些公共設施的部分到目前為止就本席所理解也尚未核定那我在這邊說一下那個院長老實說就0403外界的關注度蠻高的他拿到的善款有16萬"},{"start":261.499,"end":279.678,"text":"在零一二一的部分拿到的善款只有五千萬相差許多事實上從政災基金會的網站來看的話我覺得政災基金會到目前為止還是很重視零四零三網頁上還是貼了零四零三上面都沒有零一零二"},{"start":280.632,"end":302.24,"text":"即便0102到目前為止已經快兩個月了這種情況底下我們是不是應該給0121的這個災民更多的溫暖就有兩個部分再比較一下院長其實我統計過你去花蓮看災的部分第一個時間點就到南溪我想大家都有感受到你的溫暖"},{"start":303.28,"end":331.738,"text":"可是相對你去花蓮市災的部分到本席目前統計已經有七次之多你坐火車非常有誠意但是相對來台南你現在只來一次我不是說次數多一定有誠意但是如果時間有的話可能更多會好一點如果可以的話院長這兩部分的請求能不能請院長有機會來南部的時候來做一個核定之後來做一個宣示第一個公共設施的部分我剛剛列舉了那十項"},{"start":332.839,"end":344.97,"text":"第二個的部分呢在台南市立有未待的情況底下在未貼單的部分中央的部分是不是院長可以指示政災基金會能夠多少予以補助讓災民能夠度過這次難關院長請說"},{"start":348.398,"end":367.856,"text":"謝謝委員時間我們一定繼續來安排那0121之後我到了現場但之後總統也到了現場他關懷的速度一定次數一定也比我多那至於說我們跟地方政府包括跟黃市長陳主委跟黃市長一直就善款如何使用紅單黃單如何負評"},{"start":370.717,"end":387.241,"text":"住宅的部分有一直做相當多的討論那至於剛剛其他的包括學校學校我們也有兩千萬還有另外五百多萬的補助下去另外有一些剛剛列的之外還有江家古厝的文化的一些毀損我們也會另案來做一些補助"},{"start":387.779,"end":412.049,"text":"你做一些必要的修補那另外你提到的那幾個部分客家的部分等等我想都會另案可以再做一個處分院長我在想你應該不會拒絕你應該會同意只是說既然我們要同意 合不合定快一點你就下去做個宣示譬如講以南溪國中的時候 政委跟我下去現在就合定一部分是評估費用而已"},{"start":412.449,"end":440.029,"text":"那是不是就乾脆就說你就宣布說我就是要原地重建所有費用由中央來出就是這樣子阿沙里一句話就好你就下來宣布一下先把公部門的公共設施做個解決這是其一第二個部分未貼單的部分呢能夠做多少也對外宣布讓大家比較安心能夠趕快恢復生活秩序院長請回答因為這個數量多啊多到這個負評的時間也拉了長現在最接近的數字我剛剛就給你報告了最新的數字就是這樣子"},{"start":440.649,"end":461.43,"text":"然後呢未貼單的部分就2065然後呢黃紅單就2056就是差在這邊而已政委請給委員報告因為台南市政府在2月6號就正式公告對這些的民宅受損的補貼的原則"},{"start":464.173,"end":470.555,"text":"所以已經很明確就是如果拆除的拆除的就是按照徵收條例的"},{"start":473.259,"end":498.226,"text":"這個內容我大概就知道了所以這部分就現在盡速把它評出來對 但是它現階段而言紅黃應該都不會有問題是有補助的內容現在argue最多就是未貼單的部分那我比較0403過0403未貼單的部分也是動用那16億的善款而有那我們正在經費目前就我知道大概還有20幾億之多是不是有可能有餘錯"},{"start":499.446,"end":519.215,"text":"可以給予那個台南市政府在未貼單部分給予幫助因為這個部分其實在政委的時候的主持的這個會議當中也沒有全然的拒絕啦那如果說有這個可能性的話是不是能夠趕快有所訂案讓災民能夠有所移民各位應該是請台南市政府把整個賦品出來"},{"start":520.075,"end":522.918,"text":"不足的部分中央能不能朝向協助的方向先不說金額多少"},{"start":541.969,"end":569.549,"text":"應該要先看那個他整個評出來就我知道部分是不足的政委因為他估計他是原來是用每戶多少而事實上是應該現場去看評的修繕有大有小有有那個都有去看那個都有去看其實總體估計起來是不足院長麻煩這部分公部門的部門見早宣布然後私部門的部份見早提出方案各方的數據了解狀況也都相當清楚了那到今天為止剛好經過了對快兩個月了對"},{"start":571.81,"end":597.565,"text":"我們跟主委來商量 我們跟地方政府來配合我希望我們在月底之前我們到現場 月底之前 好 謝謝就是整理這句話 月底之前 慎重提出另外一個部分 這個是屬於這個復原的部分 還有一個需要復興的部分復興的部分呢 0403的部分 當初我們中央政府投入對花蓮多重視投入了純五億的徵星方案 公關徵星方案"},{"start":598.746,"end":625.315,"text":"但是目前我去中央觀光署要到只有要到兩千萬要到兩千萬也就是說這個區域當中它跟花蓮不是不同只有全然的需要觀光的收入而已它還有需要農業部的農業的收入農業跟觀光署最需要的能不能因地制宜就觀光跟農業的部分來幫這一次零一二一找出一個新的振興方案出來院長"},{"start":626.095,"end":652.744,"text":"我們當然很重視各地的產業觀光但是您也知道東部就是一條路一條公路一條鐵道但是中南部南部我們各種的交通的方式不一定說比照完全比照所以程度是不一樣但是我們會重視完全重視那至於說觀光的產業如果受到這樣大的影響是不是交通部還要再繼續的去對"},{"start":654.304,"end":672.937,"text":"台南甚至嘉義觀光的產業我希望有一個類似於花蓮的一個振興專案出來啦否0121啦所以觀光的部分還有農業部的部分部長在0121的部分我們景區的硬挺並沒有受到太大的影響但是確實地震的影響造成一些遊客會減少"},{"start":674.958,"end":697.279,"text":"對,我們會從軟體的部分,也就是活動的部分,我們增加活動的經費,多辦一些活動來引客來吸引客人。交通的運輸沒問題,但是活動如果增加,讓客人多一些進來,這是我們應該要做的。部長,我只是提醒你一下,我相信零星的活動會有,民間也會有,我是希望說我們院裡頭以高度的話,整合成一個類似的振興專案裡頭,讓財民感受到中央政府,"},{"start":697.839,"end":707.749,"text":"的誠意啦我只是希望這樣子不同於花蓮但是也有一個振興方案啦因為我們已經復原了嘛接下來復興嘛我們跟國防署特別來討論這個事情麻煩好不好然後因為這個振興專案之外山區有一些不一樣的地方"},{"start":714.375,"end":730.878,"text":"他有一個古老的問題目前我們已經有做一些長照機構長照機構的部分能不能加速那現在就我知道的部分預算也不足也差了九千萬我就跟院長報告一下請院長回去慎重評估一下是不是長照的這個機構目前為止能不能增加一些預算的可能性"},{"start":731.198,"end":757.982,"text":"否則真的搬不出去第三個部分呢裕豐南河院長期以來的一個限制以至於山區沒有辦法發展它現在的用水的定位做一個調整之後呢它將來是有縮編的可能可以帶動這一個山區的地方發展也就是說它的整個振興的部分有三支鍵這三個方式一個呢因為正災來的振興方案二來呢長照機構來因應那些的高齡化的問題"},{"start":758.582,"end":785.93,"text":"山來的部分呢這個整個保護區的一個縮邊也可以帶動山區的發展我請院長回去好好評估一下因為我現在講你可能不能馬上理解請您慎重評估可不可以謝謝委員如果真的影響到長照那是萬萬不得我們一定馬上做處理我們馬上馬上速度做處理那其他的關國元建議的部分我們也會同等重視好的那另外一個部分跟本席選區有所相關那兩位就先請"},{"start":787.19,"end":807.775,"text":"另外一個部分在我們海邊的部分呢花很多時間在做太陽能那過去太陽能當中的這個綠能當中呢其實啊我在去年十月的時候就問過那個郭部長再生能源發展條例十二條之一的部分的執法有關於興建增建義務的這個裝修光電的方向就是要讓屋頂型的光電能夠增加"},{"start":808.675,"end":826.117,"text":"但是呢 國務部長在去年也有提到2025 20MW 8MW是屬於屋頂12是屬於地面型的部分的目標延後一年但目前為止地面型因為爭議非常的大只停留在5到6GW而已必須靠屋頂型 屋頂型已經達標了"},{"start":827.378,"end":854.366,"text":"可是我們看到為了減少這種地面型的負擔這是第一個爭議地面型的負擔通常都是在偏鄉通常都在農漁村也就是說非人口密集區的部分它承擔了很多政策的負擔七股就是這種例子但是在都會區裡頭用電是最多的大概有六成之多他們負擔反而比較少以至於屋頂型的部分是可以作為平衡發展的可能性但是"},{"start":855.496,"end":883.356,"text":"這一個最近國土署內政部國土署在2月公布了這個執法建築法設置太陽能光電的這一個標準草案目前還在一個公告期60天的公告期你去看喔它要300坪以上 院長300坪以上可以設置光電只有10%而已而這10%當中我還請人家換算起來這300坪的標準來說的話增加裝置的容量大概多少"},{"start":884.062,"end":905.492,"text":"只有0.15基高啊0.15基高啊這個代表沒有實質的效果嘛我們地面型既然已經沒有辦法成長屋頂型已經達標就計畫說屋頂型來補地面型的情況底下你這個又限縮到這種程度怎麼可能達到這個目標呢為了公共設施沒有到300坪你沒有可能達到這個目標啊"},{"start":906.252,"end":933.315,"text":"更何況將來你如果又透過金融機構又落實ESG的責任的可能性更加不可能嘛所以現在在法令公告期的情況底下我們如果說像國務部長所說的2025的目標要延到2026我跟你講你2026這個目標一樣會再延啦一樣沒有辦法達到啦會變成這種結果 院長這怎麼辦啊報告委員我們就是朝著這個不延期的這個目標努力"},{"start":939.459,"end":943.064,"text":"實際上實用狀況對呀不教學不上課就是頂點的用膝蓋都好一點這咋子謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":371,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（16時5分）主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：郭委員好。"],["郭委員國文：院長好。院長，本席這一次的總質詢首先要為這一次0121地震的災民請願，在0121當天，院長第一個時間點就馬上到災區裡頭，而且在上禮拜五的時候，也應本席的要求，馬上同意了住宅的補貼方案，本席在這邊表示感謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：應該的。"],["郭委員國文：低利貸款跟租屋補貼都非常地重要，你也提到不論是行政院或立法院怎麼審查預算，但是給災民的補貼樣樣不能少，而且也提到要比照0403的精神跟方式。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["郭委員國文：當談到補助的部分，我們先談災情的比較，我想數字上給院長參考一下，很多人說為什麼0121的部分看起來好像沒有什麼太多的傷亡，但是為什麼屋損這麼嚴重，主要有75%的老屋存在，不是「土角厝」，就是「土瓦厝」，所以都是老屋比較居多。再加上這一次地震的強度，我給院長參考一下，在花蓮的部分是7.2，0121雖然是6.4，但是就觀測站的Gal數字來說，也就是所謂的地動加速度的部分，你去看看垂直向最高的數字，在楠西國小是569，比起花蓮測站的209，是兩倍多；另外，以東西向最高部分的Gal數據，楠西的部分是861，然後花蓮的部分只有256，也就是楠西是花蓮3.5倍的地動加速度，再加上房子老，老房子又多，以至於屋損特別地嚴重，截至到今天早上我統計的數字，紅單的部分有500件，黃單的部分是1,556件，未貼單的部分是2,065件，總共加起來是4,121件的屋損，面對4,121件屋損的部分要如何去處理？當然陳金德政委也提到，希望臺南的善款先優先處理，但是依照目前為止所留下來0206的善款12億，其實是不夠的；不夠的原因是這樣，如果說你處理黃單跟紅單，或許還OK，但是如果把未貼單的部分算下去的話，就很困難，這是目前為止我聽到最多的聲音，這跟院長說明一下，一個是民間的屋損。第二個是公共設施的部分，一個是楠西鹿陶洋客家聚落的修繕，這個中央部會都去過了；第二個是學校的部分，南藝大校舍的修繕大概1.6億，楠西國中也希望原地重建，這是學校的部分；第三個是楠西市場部分的原地重建；第四個是四大農會的修復工程，而這些公共設施的部分，到目前為止，就本席所理解也尚未核定。","我在這邊說一下，院長，老實說0403受外界的關注度滿高的，拿到的善款有16億；在0121的部分，拿到善款只有5,000萬，相差許多。事實上，從震災基金會的網站來看的話，我覺得震災基金會到目前為止還是很重視0403，網頁上還是貼著0403，上面都沒有0121，即便0121到目前為止，已經快兩個月了，在這種情況底下，我們是不是應該給0121的災民更多溫暖？就有兩個部分再比較一下，院長，其實我統計過，你第一個時間點就到楠西，我想大家都感受到你的溫暖，可是相對你去花蓮視災的部分，照本席目前統計已經有7次之多，你坐火車，非常有誠意，但是相對來臺南，你現在只來1次，我不是說次數多一定有誠意，但是如果時間有的話，可能更多會好一點，如果可以的話，院長，這兩部分的請求，能不能請院長有機會來南部的時候，核定之後來做一個宣示？第一個公共設施的部分，我剛剛列舉了那4項；第二個部分，在臺南市力有未逮的情況底下，在未貼單的部分，中央的部分是不是院長可以指示賑災基金會能夠多少予以補助，讓災民能夠度過這次難關？院長，請說。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，時間我們一定繼續來安排，0121之後我到了現場，但之後總統也到了現場，他關懷的次數一定也比我多。至於說我們跟地方政府，包括跟黃市長，陳主委跟黃市長一直就善款如何使用，紅單、黃單如何複評，住宅的部分有一直做相當多的討論。至於剛剛其他的，包括學校，我們也有2,000萬，還有另外五百多萬的補助下去；另外有一些剛剛列的之外，還有江家古厝文化的一些毀損，我們也會另案來做一些必要的修補；另外你提到的那幾個部分，像客家的部分等等，我想都會另案可以再做一個處分。"],["郭委員國文：院長，我在想你應該不會拒絕，你應該會同意啦，只是說既然我們要同意，何不核定快一點？你就下去做個宣示，譬如講，以楠西國中的時候，政委跟我下去，現在就核定一部分是評估費用而已，是不是乾脆你就宣布說我就是要原地重建，所有費用由中央來出，就是這樣子「阿莎力」一句話就好，你就下來宣布一下，先把公部門的公共設施做個解決，這是其一；第二個部分，未貼單的部分，能夠做多少也對外宣布，讓大家比較安心，能夠趕快回復生活秩序，院長，請回答。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為這個數量多，多到複評的時間也拉得長。"],["郭委員國文：現在最接近的數字，我剛才就跟你報告了，最新的數字就這樣子，然後未貼單的部分就2,065件，然後黃紅單就2,056件，就是差在這邊而已。"],["卓院長榮泰：請陳主委說明。"],["郭委員國文：政委請。"],["陳主任委員金德：跟委員報告，因為臺南市政府在2月6號已經正式公告對於這些民宅受損的補貼原則，所以已經很明確就是如果拆除的就是按照徵收條例的這個……"],["郭委員國文：政委，這個內容我大概約略知道。"],["陳主任委員金德：所以這部分就是現在儘速把它評出來。"],["郭委員國文：對，但是它現階段而言，紅黃應該都不會有問題，是有補助的內容，現在argue最多的就是未貼單的部分，我比較0403過，0403的未貼單的部分也是動用那16億的善款，我們賑災經費目前就我知道大概還有二十幾億之多，是不是有可能有餘絀可以提供臺南市政府在未貼單的部分給予幫助？因為這個部分其實在政委主持的會議當中也沒有全然地拒絕，如果有這個可能性的話，是不是能夠趕快有所定案，讓災民能夠有所因應？"],["陳主任委員金德：應該是請臺南市政府把整個複評出來，然後……"],["郭委員國文：有。"],["陳主任委員金德：加總數額是多少……"],["郭委員國文：有，它說缺大概4.5億。"],["陳主任委員金德：加總數額是多少之後，如果現有的善款真的還不足，我們再來共同討論其他的方法，因為目前現在……"],["郭委員國文：不足的部分就是……政委，就差你這句話，不足的部分，中央能不能朝向協助的方向？先不說金額多少啦。"],["陳主任委員金德：應該要先看它整個評出來是多少……"],["郭委員國文：就我知道這部分是不足的，政委，就我知道的部分是不足的！"],["陳主任委員金德：因為它估計原來是用每戶多少，事實上是應該現場去看評的修繕有大有小，整個加總起來。"],["郭委員國文：有、有、有，那個都有去看，總體估計起來是不足的，院長，麻煩這部分……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我看這樣好了……"],["郭委員國文：公部門的部分儘早宣布，然後私部門的部分儘早提出方案。"],["卓院長榮泰：各方的數據、了解的狀況也都相當清楚了，到今天為止，剛好經過了2個月了……"],["郭委員國文：對，快2個月。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們跟主委來商量，我們也跟地方政府來配合，我希望我們在月底之前，我們到現場做一些了解，好不好？"],["郭委員國文：月底之前，好，謝謝，就是等你這句話，月底之前，慎重提出。另外一個部分，這個是屬於復原的部分，還有一個是需要復興的部分，針對0403復興的部分，當初我們中央政府投入，對花蓮多重視，投入了15億的公共振興方案，但是目前我去中央向觀光署要，只有要到2,000萬，也就是說這個區域當中，他們跟花蓮不同，不是只有全然需要觀光收入而已，它還有需要農業部的農業收入，農業跟觀光是最需要的，能不能因地制宜，就觀光及農業的部分來幫這次0121找出一個新的振興方案出來，院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然很重視各地的產業觀光，但是，您也知道東部就是一條路、一條公路、一條鐵道，但是中南部、南部，有各種交通的方式……"],["郭委員國文：是，但我不一定要完全比照，院長，你不要誤會我的意思。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以程度是不一樣，但是我們會……"],["郭委員國文：對，不一樣，樣態不一樣。"],["卓院長榮泰：會重視，完全重視。至於觀光產業如果受到這樣大的影響，是不是交通部還要再繼續對臺南，甚至嘉義觀光的產業來做……"],["郭委員國文：我希望有一個類似於花蓮的振興專案出來啦！for 0121，對觀光的部分，還有農業的部分，部長。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，在0121的部分，景區的硬體並沒有受到太大的影響，但是確實地震的影響造成一些遊客會減少。"],["郭委員國文：減少五成。"],["陳部長世凱：對，我們會從軟體的部分，也就是活動的部分，我們增加活動的經費，多辦一些活動來引客，來吸引客人，交通的運輸沒問題，但是活動如果增加，讓客人多一些進來，這是我們應該要做的。"],["郭委員國文：部長，我只是提醒你一下，我相信零星的活動會有啦！民間也會有，我是希望以院裡的高度來整合成一個類似的振興專案，讓災民感受到中央政府的誠意，我只是希望這樣子，不同於花蓮，但是也有一個振興方案啦！因為我們已經復原了嘛！接下來復興嘛！好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們跟觀光署來討論……"],["卓院長榮泰：特別來討論這個事情。"],["郭委員國文：麻煩好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：我們來討論一個振興的方案。"],["郭委員國文：然後因為這個振興專案之外，山區有些不一樣的地方，它有孤老的問題，目前我們已經有做一些長照機構，長照機構的部分能不能加速？現在就我知道的部分，預算也不足，也差了9,000萬，我跟院長報告一下，請院長回去慎重評估一下，是不是針對長照機構目前為止能不能增加一些預算的可能性，否則真的標不出去。","第三個部分，玉峰攔河堰長期以來的限制，以至於山區沒有辦法發展，它現在的用水定位做一個調整之後，它將來是有縮編的可能，可以帶動山區的地方發展，也就是它整個振興的部分有三支劍，這三個方式：一，因為震災來的振興方案；二，長照機構來因應那些高齡化的問題；三，整個保護區的縮編也可以帶動山區的發展。請院長回去好好評估一下，因為我現在講，你可能不能馬上理解，請您慎重評估，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員，如果真的影響到長照，那是萬萬不得，我們一定馬上做處理。"],["郭委員國文：差9,000萬。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們馬上做處理。其他剛剛委員建議的部分，我們也會同等重視。"],["郭委員國文：好的。另外一個部分與本席選區相關的是，我們在海邊花了很多時間做太陽能，過去綠能當中有關太陽能的部分，其實我在去年10月的時候就問過郭部長，再生能源發展條例第十二條之一部分的子法有關於興建、增建或改建應裝置光電的方向，就是要讓屋頂型的光電能夠增加。但是郭部長在去年也提到2025年20GW，其中8GW是屬於屋頂，12GW是屬於地面型的部分，目標延後一年。到目前為止，地面型因為爭議非常的大，只停留在5到6GW而已，必須靠屋頂型，屋頂型已經達標了。可是我們看到為了減少這種地面型的負擔，這是第一個爭議，地面型的負擔通常都是在偏鄉，通常都在農、漁村，也就是說非人口密集區的部分承擔了很多政策的負擔，七股就是這種例子，但是在都會區裡頭用電是最多的，大概有六成之多，他們負擔反而比較少，以至於屋頂型的部分是可以作為平衡發展的可能性。","但是，最近內政部國土署在2月公布了子法「建築物設置太陽光電發電設備標準」草案，目前還在60天的公告期，你去看它還要300坪以上，院長，300坪以上可以設置光電的只有占10%而已，而這10%當中，我還請人家換算起來，以這300坪的標準來說的話，增加裝置容量大概多少？只有0.15GW。"],["卓院長榮泰：規模很小。"],["郭委員國文：0.15GW代表沒有實質的效果嘛！地面型既然已經沒有辦法成長，屋頂型已經達標，就寄望屋頂型來補地面型的情況底下，你這個又限縮到這種程度，怎麼可能達到這個目標呢？未來公共設施沒有到300坪，你沒有辦法達到這個目標啊，更何況將來如果要透過金融機構來落實ESG的責任，就更加不可能嘛！所以在現在法令公告期的情況底下，如果像郭部長所說的要將2025年的目標延到2026年，我跟你講，到時2026年這個目標一樣會再延啦，一樣沒有辦法達到啦，會變成這種結果，院長，這要怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們就是朝著不延期的目標努力。"],["郭委員國文：不延期要怎麼達成啊？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們確實來檢討實際上實用的狀況是怎麼樣。"],["郭委員國文：對啊！目標已經估算出來，就是0.15 GW而已嘛，院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長及各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","報告院會，我們現在休息10分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢。","休息（16時20分）","繼續開會（16時30分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","謝龍介","沈伯洋","張智倫","陳雪生"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2025-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00004","1142601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1142601_00004"}}},{"id":"159310","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159310","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1468b0c2f72abc7ff0db12f03a31ce71192e6bfb57ea0be4df39413b90fbabf7d5025eb6a0fa74945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"15:33:54 - 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卓院長及各部會首長有請韓院長麻煩再請卓院長 韓院長在這裡 麻煩再請卓院長政委員好 卓院長好辛苦了不會 謝謝今天"},{"start":38.327,"end":63.288,"text":"這個總質詢在2月25號院長的施政報告裡面特別提到要落實原住民族基本法推動原住民的希望工程這裡面先談這個加強提升加速提升原住民族的教育程度是在76年2月12號這次"},{"start":65.717,"end":84.792,"text":"也用這個現在我還可以找得到的公文事實上在國民政府時代我們念書的時候這個升學保障升學優待就開始了這個降低入企標準這個延時總分的25%民國95年9月3號這個杜政聖當任交易部長的時候把這個"},{"start":95.416,"end":122.848,"text":"升協的保障規定做了修正改為外加百分之二外加百分之二之前的是你只要加分之後就入企了那個95年修正也就是96年1月開始實施那102年也做了修正是經過我的諮詢協調之後修正了就是希望授權"},{"start":123.564,"end":151.293,"text":"就授權給教育部會同研明會跟大專業校能夠專案調高部分的科系專案調高外加百分之五經過多年的實施之後因為很多學校他都不願意提供外加百分之五的科系所以這個我們看這個近五年的"},{"start":152.438,"end":169.669,"text":"大專校宴學生出債協力107銜年度原住民跟全國的大專學生的出債協力是31.9足年的上升到112銜年度上升到這個落差"},{"start":174.682,"end":191.971,"text":"沿漢的落差高達34%所以不降反升了所以這個必須要積極的來去檢討這個本席啊這個一再的協調教育部啊能夠"},{"start":193.447,"end":218.478,"text":"前面外加5%為什麼現在少此理化了很多學校也招不到學生所以我們100個名額再加5個位置5個椅子也無妨所以這個部分教育部是不是請這些能夠支持教育部能夠修正這個將外加名額前面提升為5%"},{"start":220.642,"end":234.289,"text":"好 報告委員其實原住民的夥伴們在文化 表演 藝術以及在體育在各行各業 百工百業當中非常傑出的優秀的表現已經非常非常多了但即使如此"},{"start":235.302,"end":261.801,"text":"我認為這種保障就學的機制維持也是必要的因為我們還是有城鄉的差距我們還是有數位的落差但是如果把城鄉差距數位落差把它補足起來這才是長遠之道但是您說的這個現在原住民學生升學保障跟公費留學辦法它其中目前應該有的保障的這些規定到底執行起來是"},{"start":262.541,"end":285.916,"text":"保障的不夠還是人數的不足還是有什麼其他資金上的困難我講請教育部請部長來說明謝謝委員關心原住民的一個受教權那我想在這個部分我們是非常佩服的但是就大學現場事實上我們大概很多的學校大概都把這個名額開出來那而且"},{"start":286.776,"end":302.087,"text":"用特別的一些管道來招生但是我們也看到現場許多原住民的名額是沒有被用完的也就是說特定的這些原住民教育裡面我們怎麼樣讓"},{"start":303.328,"end":322.074,"text":"原來的這個原住民地區的這些青年朋友他們能夠勇於去接受挑戰我想這個部分我們會來努力那另外也跟委員報告今年的公會留考事實上我們也特別針對原住民地區的這些生物的學生"},{"start":325.27,"end":351.18,"text":"沒有談到公費流考啦針對外加2%改為外加5%所以並沒有很具體剛才的數字我希望院長希望部長要有感要有感這是真實的數字這個數據還是你們所跟委員報告我們願意來再重新來檢討從31.9"},{"start":356.462,"end":380.358,"text":"不降反升差距越來越大差距到34%你講那些我都知道所以這個部分從國民政府都可以那時候就不限名額不限名額只要加分25%就上去了就去念了那現在我們"},{"start":381.638,"end":404.687,"text":"支持改為外加不要佔一般學生的名額我們支持但是希望說從2%可以外加到5%而這個5%從102學年度修正了之後可以專案的部分的科系從葉俊倫部長開始實施105年"},{"start":408.001,"end":426.73,"text":"一百零五年開始實施雙岸外加百分之五但是你們的協調不足協調不足所以很多科系就沒有正外加百分之五所以是不是就直接就修正全部改為外加百分之五"},{"start":427.974,"end":453.813,"text":"這個沒有困難 如果有什麼困難你書面資料提問給我報告委員 原民會應該會掌握到為何會有這樣的現狀發生因為時間的關係應該有的說是原住民的學生沒有進來我找你們開過會了我也找過教育部開過會了我們有什麼方法鼓勵更多的原住民的青年朋友們加入"},{"start":454.874,"end":477.894,"text":"這樣的一個保障的名額裡面 現在這個制度應該是否足夠院長 他去考啦 都去考啦高中畢業 高職畢業都去考啦 沒考上啦就是這麼一回事啊 數字都在教育部來報考的研究院的學生 我們要鼓勵他們多來考啊多考啦 不是沒有考"},{"start":481.799,"end":503.069,"text":"我們今年還特別通過了原住民的一個國際專班為原住民來培養國際人才我想只要有各大學在申請我們都會全力來支持那現在就是說委員所關心希望有更多原住民我們也會在前面來盤點來檢討看有沒有什麼因為不是增加5%的問題"},{"start":504.249,"end":528.536,"text":"因為增加5%它只是會讓那個缺額更多我想我們怎麼樣來真正落實讓原住民的一個學習品質能夠提升我想就像委員今天穿的衣服為什麼我今天裡面的衣服跟委員的也是來自於原住民是因為我正確認為台灣生物多樣性 文化多樣性 族群多樣性"},{"start":529.296,"end":557.172,"text":"我身為一個教育部長我應該對各個族群有一個更多的一些文化的一個認同跟欣賞任何人不分族群教育是最重要的我完全同意委員的一個也認同委員的一個努力方向我剛才講過國民政府時代就開始了當時不是外加只要加分25%"},{"start":559.073,"end":577.76,"text":"就這樣啦 當初今天才十二個早如果沒有外加25%不會去念台大法律系我絕對是沒有念大學所以這個部分現在既然是外加早期又沒有 不是外加喔"},{"start":578.798,"end":607.726,"text":"現在只不過是請你外交2%改為5%何況這個5%從102閒年度也實施到現在有一個階段性的一個實施顯然這個差距還是越來越大所以應該要調高到5%請教育部往這個方向去努力"},{"start":609.312,"end":636.291,"text":"好另外就是說原住民念大專校園除了剛才的一個原因之外到了大專校園之後涉及到教育經費經濟的壓力我念大學四年禮拜六禮拜天都去挑板模啦"},{"start":638.049,"end":666.436,"text":"在台大法學院二年級在台大法學院正好宿舍有這個餐廳我中午晚餐收盤子洗盤子邱泰山過去的主委部長陳明通過去的政務官跟我都是同屆的他們是政治系我收他們的盤子洗盤子"},{"start":669.427,"end":693.602,"text":"這個接下來跟教育的提升這也是因素之一所以這樣的一個教育減免學雜費也是從國民政府就開始的我當初有減免學雜費住宿費還免費但是還是沒有辦法因應相關的生活的包括很多的"},{"start":695.017,"end":723.155,"text":"所以原住民租交易法有這樣的一個規定減免協雜費但是112年6月29號行政院這個減免私立大專協雜費的3.5萬但是原住民的部分因為我們本來已經降低了所以沒辦法用到 用不到所以這個"},{"start":724.266,"end":749.89,"text":"整個219億多的經費我們用不到而這個這樣的一個抱歉從107年這個結雜費的減免107年到現在都沒有再增加沒有再增加這個減免的額度"},{"start":750.785,"end":768.229,"text":"所以我也開過協調會 到現在為止 事實上已經七年多沒有修正了這個部分也是讓我們的好不容易考上了 結果因為經濟的因素就輟學"},{"start":770.82,"end":783.242,"text":"所以這個部分也請教育部行政院希望能夠支持提高調高協雜費減免的數額請院長能夠支持謝謝委員提醒我想確實國家在對新世代年輕人的照顧怎麼樣能夠隨著私立學校的學會的"},{"start":801.071,"end":820.706,"text":"這個補貼能夠也反映適度的反映到原住民我們會整體來細算然後來看怎麼樣來協助原住民青年的一個教育希望你能夠在這個下年度的預算現在開始鎖邊明年度的預算希望你能夠把它列入進去"},{"start":822.45,"end":845.635,"text":"我們都會區的人口已經高達百分之五十一點多院長的施政報告裡面特別提到實踐居住正義營造安基的家園執行社會住宅新辦的計畫這跟內政部也有關係我們先看這個早期還沒有延期法的時候還沒有住宅法的時候"},{"start":847.145,"end":875.311,"text":"八十一年台灣省政府以一億五千多萬興建了基隆的原住民國宅而且土地還是爭辯為原住民保留地新店的中正原住民住宅八十三年這個是兩億一千三百多萬兩億一千三百多萬"},{"start":879.261,"end":908.779,"text":"然後新北市的三峽原住民文化部落整個是兩億八千零九十二萬也請內政部部長也上來麻煩請內政部長備詢三峽原住民文化部落剛剛講到一百五十戶民國八十八年中央人民會以四億九千兩百萬架構直接購買民間的集合式住宅"},{"start":910.25,"end":938.09,"text":"提供給原住民126戶的來住戶原基法94年2月5號公佈實行現在正好20多年政府應該徹底原住民族住宅政策住宅法第二條第四項規定為了原住民族的教育及文化"},{"start":939.412,"end":963.372,"text":"語言文化的提升大家住在一起都會期啊大家住在一起語言文化包括教育的提升比較能夠所以要精建專攻原住民成豬的社會住宅這是105年12月23號住宅法本席也曾經質詢內政部前任的部長林佑昌"},{"start":964.417,"end":989.298,"text":"他當時答覆說在台中沙鹿、新北樹林、桃園大溪總共541戶原住民社會住宅業要規劃興建結果呢這個後來素面答覆的結果台中沙鹿的部分沒有經費新北樹林的部分沒有經費新北樹林說經費要調了 人民會說要調經費他也去調了"},{"start":992.827,"end":1019.988,"text":"桃園大溪的說沒有經費沒有經費跟中央要 中央沒有錢好這裡面園民會本來中和發展基金新北市的部分就是跟市園民會說我跟你借錢借原住民族中和發展基金然後一部分你補助給我"},{"start":1021.301,"end":1045.422,"text":"希望能夠興建那原住民族綜合法案基金105年12月31號的結算數是117億7千多萬但是到了今年到了去年了到了去年 人民會的答覆給新北市政府說我們的存款原住民族綜合法案基金的存款只剩下9.1億"},{"start":1048.393,"end":1073.286,"text":"因為絕大部分的經費54億已經被挪用去做進法補償的費用了以無資金來支應這個社會住宅本席曾經執行過內政部的部長到了之前的部長希望能夠住宅的這個"},{"start":1077.104,"end":1103.406,"text":"106年3月27號 諮詢內政部部長他說可以用住宅基金 內政部的住宅基金自建自營新建原住民社會住宅但是已經這麼多年了住宅法修正公佈已經八年三個月專攻原住民的社會住宅一個都還沒有我剛剛為什麼會掀起之前的"},{"start":1105.241,"end":1132.055,"text":"基隆的新北市的三个总共四个就是说在那时候没有法律的情况之下为了照顾为了提供给都会区的原住民的社会住宅都做了有了住宅法之后已经八年三个月了一个都没有所以请行政院能够支持"},{"start":1133.103,"end":1153.349,"text":"以內政部的住宅基金或者是編列公務預算來興建當然直接架構是最快過去我在演民會服務過直接架構是最快 細指的就是直接架構對民間來講也幫助院長是不是交給這個"},{"start":1157.774,"end":1186.01,"text":"這個是一個大議題啦今天也不必直接答覆了是不是請院長這個警內政部跟園民會當然如果要公務一算原住民委員會的住宅計畫剛合訂的住宅計畫根本就沒有列這個部分了所以國發會也希望能夠支持主計總署希望能夠支持可以嗎"},{"start":1187.196,"end":1215.278,"text":"好 謝謝委員 我們再來內部再來商議一下什麼樣的方式現在的制度如果繼續走或怎麼樣我們再來商議一下好 謝謝 謝謝院長好 深化自治這是總統府的這個新聞 新聞稿深化自治好 請那個部長 沒錯蔡政府推動原住民組織制立法的進度的創案包括特別提到"},{"start":1217.196,"end":1246.387,"text":"他說我國早期中央各級民意代表的原住民保障席次以及三地鄉的鄉長保障縣三地原住民來擔任甚至相關的這些學校的校長主任優先兼用原住民都認為這個實質上已在逐步落實民族自治"},{"start":1247.43,"end":1259.677,"text":"也就是說這個特別提到已經具有民族自治的精神我們看這個民國41年戒嚴時期民國41年戒嚴時期動員勘亂時期三地鄉鄉長現由三地原住民擔任這個是當時的法規"},{"start":1271.877,"end":1301.088,"text":"三地鄉的三地公民年滿25歲50人連署就可以去參選這個鄉長原住民的立法委員保障其次從民國61年動員抗亂時期開始從一個名額後來增加到兩個名額後來增加到四個名額現在增加到六個名額曾經最高高達八個名額原住民的立法委員"},{"start":1301.752,"end":1327.797,"text":"當然國大代表也有那我要談的是什麼呢事實上談的就是這個原住民族基本法院長也特別提到要落實原住民族基本法那原住民族自治就是原住民族基本法其中之一很重要的部分所以部落工法人在原住民族基本法也特別明定"},{"start":1329.017,"end":1351.925,"text":"相關的土海法也是在這個原住民族基本法第二十條第三項特別規定蔡總統特別承諾一百零五年的時候八月一號講的一百零五年此一月一號我們開始劃設公告原住民傳統領域土地部落公法人的制度我們已經上路了"},{"start":1353.103,"end":1377.069,"text":"蔡總統還特別提到我們會加快將原住民族自治法原住民族土安法送請立法院審議但是經過8年多了都沒有都沒有送來而人民會的預算原住民族自治的預算總共從105年編列到114年總共已經編列了4,039萬8千元院長"},{"start":1382.472,"end":1411.419,"text":"我在演民會當企劃處處長後來當演民會的常務副主委是陳水扁總統任內當任常務副主委我們沒有編列經費我們完成了原住民主自治法的草案我們沒有編列經費完成了原住民主土地及海域法的草案花了這麼多錢原住民主自治法這八年多來應該是講九年了啦"},{"start":1412.521,"end":1437.651,"text":"這九年來沒有送到立法院這個擦一下這個因為預算已經編了很多剛講四千多萬了所以我就凍結了園民會的預算希望說就不要編預算改為積極的去怎麼樣去落實去推動我不敢刪我忍不忍心刪"},{"start":1439.707,"end":1467.65,"text":"我當立法委員從來不刪減預算然後這個也是經過我在內政委員會的一個提案張宏祿召委主持的 也沒有反對就同意凍結結果呢就被列為這個復議案的理由啊復議案的違反這個"},{"start":1470.466,"end":1497.297,"text":"司法院的一個391號的解釋所以這個部分這個是額外的他不都談了重點還在於已經編了這麼多預算希望第一個請行政院三個月內發布部落公法人設置辦法部落公法人設置辦法發布之後並不是所有的部落就變成公法人"},{"start":1498.052,"end":1521.144,"text":"他還要按照很多的行政程序從部落會議一直到要提包到縣到中央演民會所以並不是每個部落都要成立第二個公告原住民族傳統領域公告了新店新店區烏來區我講錯了烏來區已經公告將近7年多了"},{"start":1527.13,"end":1548.228,"text":"都不會 沒有怎麼樣啊沒有怎麼樣 所以不要怕不要怕 各部會不要怕第三 原住民族自治法草案趕快送立法院來審議原住民族土地及海域法草案趕快送立法院審議好 曾主委要講話我跟委員報告那這個有關部落公火人的設置辦法"},{"start":1549.656,"end":1573.285,"text":"曾經我們也是有公告過但是部落現在的意見還很多但是我們想乾脆我們先來試辦所以今年我們會試辦五個部落那這個五個部落為什麼要找他試辦因為我們自己覺得這個部落的核心幹部比較容易形成共識我們就先試辦今年就辦主委這句話我已經從宜將主委聽到現在我來說我來說"},{"start":1580.339,"end":1602.299,"text":"部落你這個部落設置辦法發布施行之後部落要不要當公法人部落自己決定部落的人民來決定你不要去說服他你不用說服他他自己去開會決定我們會設置這個會設置辦法但是就是說重點"},{"start":1605.127,"end":1627.444,"text":"重點是你要趕快把部落公法的設置辦法要發布要依延期才發布比較容易成功的而且今年就會做成功的這樣的話我們才會有跨出一步不然永遠都是在那邊你沒有這個設置辦法你怎麼去辦啊可以試辦啊你用什麼法規依據去試辦啊都不用依法行政了"},{"start":1627.964,"end":1629.585,"text":"主委這是完全是違法的"},{"start":1644.414,"end":1669.11,"text":"部落事辦的辦法部落公法的事辦的辦法你也要定啊在這個之前我們就先去找比較容易成功而且有您紀律的我們先跟他做說明那才叫事辦啊好 你把那個事辦的計畫提供給我還有你講的這個民主自治草案"},{"start":1670.168,"end":1695.874,"text":"你也知道這個進入立法院已經五進五出嘛這個不容易嘛這個宜江主委已經講了八年了啊確實是五進五出啊啊你說這個土海法的話送到貴宴期齁連討論都沒有討論啊都連排審都沒有排審因為送來的時候這你不了解這我最清楚是我送的送來的時候正好就"},{"start":1697.976,"end":1725.948,"text":"立法委員的任期要結束了這期不聯繫又退回了是這樣的因素並不是沒有審所以這個部分不能因為這樣就不送來好 我們也會整理會再送院長不能因為立法院既然立法院沒有公示就趕快送來嘛不要自己承擔這個責任嘛"},{"start":1728.024,"end":1750.275,"text":"行政院為什麼要去承擔這個責任對不對反過來是這麼一回事確實如主委所說的各方的共識目前一時還沒有辦法達到可以往前再走一大步但是一步一步的往前走這個方向一定是存在的最後時間的關係我本來後面還有議題"},{"start":1752.162,"end":1774.41,"text":"但是重點就是說 我執行過很多次 精良的軍備要專精的國軍這個預算一直調高提高 沒有問題 國防部長請好 副部長但是我們的志願役逐年下降 志願役"},{"start":1777.83,"end":1795.426,"text":"退伍人數比週末的多志願役士兵人力下降志願役士兵大幅下降這是每年的下降薪資是一個很重要的因素這個薪資每年按照軍公教的調薪3%或4%"},{"start":1799.278,"end":1820.517,"text":"但是紀理跟勞工的基本薪資4萬6千多的平均薪資差距很大我也質詢過這個邱國正部長他答詢說我們多希望提升軍人薪資但是從110年11月2號到現在"},{"start":1824.029,"end":1833.376,"text":"所以這個部分請行政院支持部長就提報部長沒有再好的武器"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":281,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（15時34分）韓院長、卓院長及各部會首長。有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：卓院長好，Nga'ay ho！"],["卓院長榮泰：Nga'ay ho！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：辛苦了！"],["卓院長榮泰：不會，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今天是總質詢，在2月25日院長的施政報告裡面特別提到要落實原住民族基本法，推動原住民的希望工程。這裡面先談加強提升、加速提升原住民族的教育程度。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw如果沒有加分25%，不會去念臺大法律系，我絕對是沒有念大學；早期不是外加，現在只不過是請你把外加2%改為5%，何況這5%從102學年度實施到現在，是階段性的實施，但顯然差距還是越來越大，所以應該要調高到5%，請教育部往這個方向去努力。","另外，原住民念大專校院，除了剛才的原因之外，到了大專校院之後，還涉及到教育經費、經濟的壓力，我念大學4年，禮拜六、禮拜天都去挑板模，二年級時臺大法學院正好宿舍有餐廳，我中午、晚餐都去收盤子、洗盤子，過去的主委、部長邱太三、過去的政務官陳明通，跟我都是同一屆的，他們是政治系，我收他們的盤子、洗盤子。","這個接下來跟教育的提升，這也是因素之一，所以減免教育學雜費也是從國民政府就開始的，我當初有減免學雜費，住宿費還免費，但是還是沒有辦法因應相關的生活，包括很多的……所以原住民族教育法有這樣一個規定──減免學雜費。112年6月29號行政院有減免私立大專學雜費的3.5萬，但是原住民的部分，因為我們本來已經降低了，所以沒有辦法用到，這整個二百十九億多的經費我們用不到。","這個學雜費的減免，從107年到現在都沒有再增加減免的額度，所以我也開過協調會，到現在為止事實上已經七年多沒有修正了，這個部分也是讓我們好不容易考上了，結果因為經濟的因素就輟學，所以這個部分也請教育部，當然也希望行政院能夠支持提高、調高學雜費減免的數額，這個請院長能夠支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：部長說明一下。"],["鄭部長英耀：謝謝委員提醒，我想確實國家在對新世代年輕人的照顧上，怎麼樣能夠隨著私立學校學費的補貼，也能適時、適度地反映到原住民……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長……"],["鄭部長英耀：我們會整體來細算，然後來……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝你。"],["鄭部長英耀：看怎麼樣來協助原住民青年的教育。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為時間的關係，希望能夠在下年度的預算，現在開始籌編明年度的預算，希望你能夠把它列入進去。","我們都會區的人口已經高達百分之五十一點多，院長的施政報告裡面特別提到「實踐居住正義，營造安居家園」，執行社會住宅興辦的計畫，這跟內政部也有關係。我們先看這個，早期還沒有原基法的時候，還沒有住宅法的時候，81年臺灣省政府以一億五千多萬興建了基隆的原住民國宅，而且土地還增編為原住民保留地；83年新店的中正原住民住宅，這個是兩億一千三百多萬；然後新北市的三峽原住民族文化部落整個是2億8,092萬，也請內政部部長上來。"],["主席：麻煩請內政部部長備詢。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：三峽原住民族文化部落剛剛講的有150戶，民國88年中央原民會以4億9,200萬價購，直接購買民間的集合式住宅，提供給原住民126個住戶。原基法94年2月5號公布施行，現在正好20週年，政府應該策訂原住民族住宅政策。住宅法第二條第四項規定，為了原住民族教育及語言文化的提升，在都會區大家住在一起，對於語言文化，包括教育比較能夠提升，所以要興建專供原住民承租的社會住宅，這是105年12月23號的住宅法。","本席也曾經質詢前任內政部部長林右昌，他當時答復說在臺中沙鹿、新北樹林、桃園大溪總共有541戶原住民社會住宅要規劃興建。後來書面答復的結果是臺中沙鹿的部分沒有經費；新北樹林的部分原民會說要調經費，然後他也去調了；桃園大溪的部分則是沒有經費，跟中央要但是中央沒有錢。新北市的部分就是跟原民會說：我跟你借錢，借原住民族綜合發展基金，然後一部分你補助給我，希望能夠興建。原住民族綜合發展基金105年12月31號的決算數是一百十七億七百多萬，但是到了去年，原民會給新北市政府的答復卻說原住民族綜合發展基金的存款只剩下9.14億，因為絕大部分的經費54億已經被挪去做禁伐補償的費用，已無資金來支應社會住宅。","本席曾經在106年3月27質詢過內政部之前的部長，他說可以用內政部的住宅基金支應興建原住民社會住宅，但是已經這麼多年了，住宅法修正公布已經8年3個月，專供原住民的社會住宅卻是一個都還沒有。我剛剛為什麼會先舉基隆、新北市的四個例子？主要是那時候在沒有法律的情況之下，為了照顧、為了提供給都會區原住民的社會住宅都做了，有了住宅法之後已經8年3個月了，反而是一個都沒有，所以請行政院能夠支持以內政部的住宅基金或者是編列公務預算來興建。當然直接價購是最快的，過去我在原民會服務過，直接價購是最快的，汐止的就是直接價購，對民間來講也有幫助。","院長，這是一個大議題，今天也不必直接答復了，是不是請院長責成內政部跟原民會，如果要公務預算，原住民族委員會所核定的住宅計畫根本就沒有列這個部分，所以我希望國發會能夠支持，也希望主計總處能夠支持，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們內部再來商議一下，看看什麼樣的方式，現在的制度如果繼續走或是怎麼樣，我們再來商議一下。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝院長，部長請回座。","接下來是「深化自治」，這是總統府的新聞稿，蔡政府推動原住民族自治立法進度的專案報告特別提到，我國早期中央各級民意代表的原住民保障席次以及山地鄉的鄉長保障限由山地原住民來擔任，甚至相關的學校校長、主任都優先進用原住民，都認為這個實質上已在逐步落實民族自治，也就是說，特別提到這已經具有民族自治的精神。我們看民國41年戒嚴時期、動員戡亂時期，山地鄉鄉長限由山地原住民擔任，這個是當時的法規，山地鄉的山地公民年滿25歲、50人連署就可以去參選鄉長。原住民的立法委員保障席次從民國61年動員戡亂時期開始，從1個名額，後來增加到2個名額，後來增加到4個名額，現在增加到6個名額，原住民的立法委員曾經最高高達8個名額，當然，國大代表也有。","我要談的是什麼呢？事實上談的就是原住民族基本法，院長也特別提到要落實原住民族基本法，原住民族自治就是原住民族基本法其中之一很重要的部分，所以部落公法人在原住民族基本法也特別明定，相關的土海法也是在原住民族基本法第二十條第三項特別規定。","蔡總統特別承諾、105年的時候8月1號講的，105年11月1號我們開始劃設公告原住民傳統領域土地，部落公法人的制度我們已經上路了；蔡總統還特別提到，我們會加快將原住民族自治法、原住民族土海法送請立法院審議，但是經過八年多了都沒有送來。而原民會的預算、原住民族自治的預算從105年編列到114年，總共已經編列了4,039萬8,000元。院長，我在原民會當企劃處處長，後來當原民會的常務副主委，是在陳水扁總統任內擔任常務副主委，我們沒有編列經費，完成了原住民族自治法草案；我們沒有編列經費，完成了原住民族土地及海域法草案。花了這麼多錢，原住民族自治法這八年多來，應該是講9年了，這9年來沒有送到立法院。","插一下這個，因為預算已經編很多，剛剛講已經四千多萬了，所以我就凍結了原民會的預算，希望就不要編預算，改為積極地怎麼樣去落實、去推動。我不敢刪，我不忍心刪，我當立法委員也從來不刪減預算。然後這個也是經過我在內政委員會的一個提案，張宏陸召委主持的，原民會也沒反對，就同意凍結，結果就被列為覆議案的理由，違反司法院第391號的解釋，所以這個部分是額外的，不多談了。","重點還在於已經編了這麼多預算，希望：第一個，請行政院於3個月內發布部落公法人設置辦法，部落公法人設置辦法發布之後，並不是所有的部落就變成公法人，它還要按照很多的行政程序，從部落會議，一直到要提報到縣、到中央原民會，所以並不是每個部落都要成立。第二個，公告原住民族傳統領域，烏來區已經公告了將近七年多了，都沒有怎麼樣呀，沒有怎麼樣！所以不要怕，各部會不要怕。第三，原住民族自治法草案趕快送立法院來審議，原住民族土地及海域法草案趕快送立法院審議。好，曾主委要講話。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我跟委員報告，有關部落公法人設置辦法，曾經我們也是有公告過，但是部落現在的意見還很多，我們想乾脆我們先來試辦，所以今年我們會試辦5個部落，為什麼會找這5個部落試辦，因為我們覺得這個部落的核心幹部比較容易形成共識，我們就先試辦，今年就辦。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委，這句話我已經從夷將主委聽到現在，我來說，部落設置辦法發布施行之後，部落要不要當公法人，部落自己決定，部落的人民來決定，你不要去說服他，你不用說服他，他自己去開會決定。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我們會設置辦法，但是……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個部分的重點是你要趕快把部落公法人設置辦法發布，而且要依原基法發布。"],["曾主任委員智勇：跟委員報告，我們是不是找到比較容易成功的，而且今年就會做成功的？這樣的話我們才會有跨出一步，不然永遠都是停留在那裡。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你沒有這個設置辦法要怎麼去試辦？"],["曾主任委員智勇：可以試辦啊！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你用什麼法規依據去試辦？"],["曾主任委員智勇：沒有，我們跟部落……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：都不用依法行政了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：就是先試辦，而且我們已經找到5個部落了，今年會成功，到時候我再跟委員報告，好不好？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委，這完全是違法的，你要訂一個部落試辦辦法，部落公法人試辦辦法，你也要訂。"],["曾主任委員智勇：我知道，在此之前，我們就先去找比較容易成功……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：那種不叫試辦。"],["曾主任委員智勇：而且有凝聚力的，我們先跟他做說明，那才叫試辦。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，你把試辦計畫提供給我。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，還有你講的原住民族自治法草案，你也知道這個進入立法院已經五進五出，這個不容易。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：夷將主委已經講了8年了。"],["曾主任委員智勇：確實是五進五出，土海法送到貴院連討論都沒有討論，連排審都沒有排審，委員你也很清楚。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：委員送來的時候，這你不瞭解，我最清楚，因為是我送的，送來的時候正好是立法委員的任期要結束了，屆期不連續又退回了，是這樣的因素，並不是……"],["曾主任委員智勇：四次都沒有……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不是沒有審，所以這個部分不能因為這樣就不送來。"],["曾主任委員智勇：好，我們也會整理後再送。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院長，不能因為立法院……既然立法院沒有共識就趕快送來，不要自己承擔這個責任，行政院為什麼要去承擔這個責任，對不對？反過來是這麼一回事嘛！"],["卓院長榮泰：確實如主委所說的，各方的共識目前一時還沒有辦法達到可以往前再走一大步，但是一步一步的往前走，這個方向一定是存在的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：最後，時間的關係，我本來後面還有議題，但是重點就是，我質詢過很多次精良的軍備要有專精的國軍，預算一直調高，沒有問題，請國防部顧部長上來。但是我們的志願役逐年下降，退伍人數比招募的多，志願役士兵人力下降，志願役士兵大幅下降，每年都下降。薪資是一個很重要的因素，薪資每年按照軍公教調薪3%或4%，但是距離勞工的平均薪資四萬六千多差距很大，我也質詢過邱國正部長，他答詢說我們都希望提升軍人薪資，但是從110年11月2日到現在，所以這個部分請行政院支持，部長，就提報嘛！部長，再多再好的武器……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們已經提報了，院長今天早上也講了，很快就會核定下來。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，請院長趕快核定，謝謝院長，謝謝部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員為國軍請命，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來我們請登記第40號郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","謝龍介","沈伯洋","張智倫","陳雪生"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2025-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00004","1142601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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那我希望可以在一個月內看到一些相關的一個規劃好嗎好 謝謝 謝謝文化部那接下來就是要來講就是說針對於不義職的保存其實威權象徵的去除也是轉型正義中相當重要的工作"},{"start":443.135,"end":471.137,"text":"最近其實中原大學配合了一個自己主動決議他們要來配合轉型正義來去做修改中正樓的這個大樓的名稱我認為這對轉型正義是一個非常大的一個進展而這件事情智慧可以成功的是我們的政策引導這是我們的政策引導做出來所以我也想要請教因為其實我們現在還是有非常多的路民出轉會的報告其實有提到路民的要更名所以我是否可以請教交通部部長"},{"start":474.127,"end":475.128,"text":"我們可以時間暫停一下嗎時間暫停諮詢請繼續"},{"start":484.221,"end":508.186,"text":"謝謝好就是說我們是不是可以依循我們這個內政部的一些相關的補助方式呢讓地方政府在進行交通建設的時候在落名或是佔名的命名之上也能夠透過加分項目或是增加補助金額引導縣市政府可以像中原大學這樣子自動自發的啟動跟民作業不要像去年桃園市政府當時引發了非常大的爭議就是民眾的投票民意"},{"start":508.726,"end":531.486,"text":"完全背道而馳把捷運站民用了很多用中正命名的這真的是大開轉型正義的倒車不曉得交通部長的想法是什麼好 報告委員未來這個部分我們可以納入討論那我回到部裡面再跟部裡面的同仁來討論未來的審核的過程當中把這些也納入對 那這個部分的話我們是大概什麼時候可以有一些進一步的了解呢"},{"start":532.199,"end":543.895,"text":"我跟內部先討論,那一個月之內向委員報告好,謝謝部長那再來就是要請國發會主委上臺,謝謝時間暫停,謝謝時間暫停,那文化部長跟交通部長可以請回"},{"start":553.706,"end":573.918,"text":"借這個時間暫停順便宣告一下,我們的硬體建築就是三位所以說所有隔園的備詢不要超過三位一個是硬體建築,硬體設備就是三位另外部長這些畫面我特別也跟院長各部會隔園溝通一下請盡量不要超過三位,畫面也不好看好不好,好請繼續"},{"start":577.236,"end":591.367,"text":"好謝謝那去年總諮詢的時候其實我特別提到就是促轉基金應該開放給民間來直接申請使用那當時也非常感謝就是院長馬上責成了國發會主委來進行相關的研討但是在去年在最近我在追這個檔案局就是我們有"},{"start":592.288,"end":609.568,"text":"更細部的一些計畫的時候呢我發現就是說現在給我的這個方案比較像是說我把大家的相關的各部會的相關計畫彙整成為一個平台讓大家可以知道說我可以從哪邊得到這些相關的補助這比較像一個資訊的彙整平台跟我當時"},{"start":610.769,"end":631.794,"text":"期待的方向不一樣因為我的期待其實是希望可以讓民間團體直接申請我們引進民間的活力來推動各式各樣的轉型計畫我覺得這個也可以讓公司一起協力但是現在比較像是一個會診平台所以我想要請教一下就是說我們"},{"start":632.754,"end":648.315,"text":"有沒有可能再去做一些在這個方向上面更打開一點呢不像只是一個資訊平台還是你們其實是有這個方向在規劃謝謝委員我們今年會規劃一個您所說的就是您提的這個讓民間可以有機會申請的平台"},{"start":650.205,"end":671.744,"text":"事實上我也補充說明一下我們從去年開始就修訂了條例民間就即可申請只是我們的申請是到主要的六個部會然後去個別申請原因是我們不希望資源重複的浪費舉例而言如果是政治受難者家屬的心情貧富"},{"start":672.504,"end":698.075,"text":"可能衛福部已經有案子在走的時候如果民間再申請就會重複所以我們希望他到衛福部來申請那這樣的話衛福部可以統一支援如果已經政府已經在做的那就不一定民間就要不要做再由部會來做所以我們將來這個平台的整合我們還是會整合進來但是會回到由這個六個部會原來我們法定的六個部會來各自審議但我想請教一下就是說那我直接從後面的例子來討論好了抱歉就是說"},{"start":699.927,"end":722.417,"text":"就是說我不太確定如果用這樣子的方式我們的促轉基金的用途會不會非常的重複跟狹隘就是說因為其實我覺得促轉基金的想像可以非常非常的多元以我們現在促轉基金裡面的一些規範來說其實它並沒有非常非常的狹隘可是我們過去的一些補助"},{"start":722.957,"end":738.464,"text":"其實都還是在限縮一個原本的一些既有的想像那其實在國外我想舉個一個簡單的例子啦就是柏林博物館其實它也是一個紀念猶太人受難的一個過程的一個博物館那它當時其實建了一個兒童場"},{"start":739.484,"end":763.076,"text":"那這個兒童長館他是找兒童們一起來做一個審議會然後一起來討論這個遊戲場要變成什麼樣子然後希望通過這個過程來培立兒童可以參與公共事務來培立這個民主討論的一個機制那這樣子的事情其實在沖繩在美國都有類似的案例那我認為這個其實就是公司協力一個最好的方式所以我想要了解就是說"},{"start":764.196,"end":778.383,"text":"我們如果促轉基金要做到像這樣子的一個東西的話如果有人來提出這樣子的創意那他到底要到哪一個部會去做申請呢在既有的六個部會嗎還是他可以有一個更開放的平台或組織可以來協助他申請"},{"start":779.065,"end":808.149,"text":"是的 非常謝謝委員您的提議非常好可以幫助我們做得更好那我們其實有內部做個討論做過這個討論我們希望是說如果是單一部會的話我們就到部會去申請但是跨部會的我們有些做法可能會跨了兩個部會或三個部會的我們希望是這個平台透過這個平台進到國發會來做統合所以國發會會是由檔案局還是檔案局嗎對 檔案局他就會進行這個跨部會的協商"},{"start":809.009,"end":829.017,"text":"這個部分我也想請教一下,如果還是回到檔案局的部分,我有一個問題想要跟主委再做一些討論,就是說以政治檔案的研究,檔管局絕對是它的專業,但是要去評估這麼多開放性的一些想像的時候,檔管局的專業上面是否足夠呢?"},{"start":830.894,"end":839.929,"text":"其實這是一個很專業的問題所以我們是有一個促轉委員會會由這個委員會來評估協助評估不是我們來評估我們請了很多專家學者"},{"start":840.785,"end":865.357,"text":"所以會有另外到時候促轉經濟之後會有促轉委員會來評估那黨管局只是來協助執行是嗎其實各部會的資料也會送到這裡來做統籌的評估那我們請專家來做評估好因為我時間有限那我想我們這一個平台的細節我們就之後來持續跟國發會這邊來研究跟討論謝謝謝謝委員謝謝最後想要請教院長有關於中正紀念堂的問題"},{"start":868.632,"end":889.42,"text":"就是在2023年行政院推動了轉型正義業務中長程規劃計監測指標建立方案在去年的時候我們就應該要完成相關的修法法制作業但目前還是沒有完成那我在去年的11月促轉匯報上面的策進方案又再度看到了說要去做一個相關法制的修正"},{"start":890.84,"end":918.818,"text":"那我想我們其實過去對中正紀念堂其實已經開過了非常多次的會包含在促轉期間促轉會期間就開了六個方案在鄭麗君副院長在文化部的期間其實也召開了十二場民間的論壇我想其實我們已經開了很多的會應該是時候來做一個決定了那我不曉得說中正紀念堂的轉型其實應該是一個非常非常重要的事情那我其實有看到中正紀念堂轉型小組的呂健興委員"},{"start":919.258,"end":943.867,"text":"表示其實行政院曾經有意把中正紀念堂轉到人權館那我想要請教說對於這樣子的一個想法簡單請院長簡單回覆一下您的看法是什麼是的 我們在會議當中是想說這個中正紀念堂如果讓它有新的民主人權的意義那麼它的未來的發展就不會是過去大家對威權的記憶就像"},{"start":944.858,"end":961.319,"text":"我小時候看總統府它就是威權可是我現在看總統府它就是民主的象徵因為我們用人民的力量改變了它的結構改變了它的背景也改變了它存在的意義如果我們同樣的力量用更多的人權文化民主"},{"start":961.98,"end":988.237,"text":"甚至轉型正義的意義也在裡面讓大家認為應該是對威權的記憶的這些建築物轉化成這個功能的話那又是給我們跟給我們的下一代新的一個精神上的期望我想 抱歉喔就是說 院長就是說中間紀念堂的轉型是一個非常非常重要的工作我想我們還是必須直面歷史過去中間紀念堂裡面的這一位我們大家現在住在裡面的這一位"},{"start":989.658,"end":1006.792,"text":"蔣介石先生對台灣的一些傷害我想這是一件非常困難的工作但是我們也必須堅持啦因為還是回到我剛剛講的那一句話只有深化轉型正義直面歷史才能夠打造社會民主社會的韌性那這次這個邀請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":215,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（15時17分）謝謝主席。我們有請院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：院長好。國民黨昨天開了一個記者會，高喊反戒嚴，聽起來好像在捍衛民主，但問題是當年執行長達38年戒嚴的政黨，就是國民黨，而且國民黨為了護航過去壓迫臺灣人的歷史，不僅在立法院無所不用其極的拖延我們一些轉型正義的工作，模糊轉型正義的定義，甚至在預算上面大砍了黨產會、內政部、教育部，還有文化部的一些相關預算，我要跟院長說，您知道嗎？這個凍結的預算，如果7月前無法解凍，我們二二八國家紀念館就要因為付不出營運費用而休館了，所以我今天看到這個新聞的時候，我只有這兩個字，「荒謬」，因為今天臺灣的民主是有多少前輩犧牲生命、犧牲青春才得到的，這是不會止息的一個抗爭，絕對不是國民黨的恩賜，可是國民黨為什麼還可以正義凜然，臉不紅、氣不喘的喊出要反戒嚴，我覺得有一個非常大的問題，就是大多數的民眾對於「戒嚴」這兩個字，其實是非常不清楚的，所以就很容易被這樣子操弄。","我想跟院長分享一段東吳大學政治系教授陳俊宏老師在二二八共生音樂會上的一個演講片段，他說從匈牙利和波蘭的例子來看，儘管經歷了共產政權的垮台，但是公民如果持續保有威權懷舊的政治態度，就容易使新興民主體制下的領導人進行民粹動員，讓公民接受那些違背民主原則的決定，進而破壞法治精神，導致民主倒退。匈牙利曾經是東歐民主化的成功典範，但是如果公民社會對於威權沒有免疫力，那民主就可能一步一步的被蠶食，這些國家30年的處境跟臺灣非常相似，但他們一步一步走回頭路，我們臺灣真的要重蹈覆轍嗎？所以在今年1月的時候歐洲理事會就強調，歷史教育對培養民主公民意識至關重要，因為歷史不是過去，而是我們如何面對未來，如果我們不讓社會正視過去的不義，讓下一代知道威權的可怕，那麼民主的危機就會隨時發生。所以今天我想要就「深化轉型正義才有民主韌性」這個主題來跟院長做仔細的討論。在二二八當天舉行中樞儀式的時候，賴總統發表演說指出，要請文化部啟動審議程序，例如義光教會等具有轉型正義意義的場所，予以保存維護，讓大家都能夠走進歷史的現場反思，思考威權統治對人權自由的破壞，進而深化臺灣的民主，我認為這是一個很好的開始。但是從促轉會解散到現在已經3年了，過去促轉會審定相關不義遺址的時候是根據審定不義遺址作業要點，解散之後整個工作移轉到文化部，但是到目前為止，文化部並沒有任何的審定要點，詢問相關程序都說要等到立法院三讀通過不義遺址保存條例才能夠進行後續的活化。所以我想要請教院長，既然總統都已經清楚的講出來，要由文化部來啟動一個審議的程序，那麼我們相關的時間表是什麼？而且如果以義光教會作為案例，我們什麼時候會啟動？我們的程序又是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，臺灣因為有過去長期戒嚴的這個教訓，以及現在世界各國各種民主發展改革的過程，才造成今天臺灣有這樣一個勇敢面對極權，還能夠堅守民主的自我心理上最強大的武器，所以我們在這個基礎上，我們應該相信臺灣是一個永遠民主自由的地方。在二二八當天總統所說的，它最大的意義是希望臺灣永遠、永遠不要再發生像二二八這樣的事件，所以他先把義光教會指定為具有轉型正義意義的一個場所，未來文化部就會啟動整個審議程序，那審議的過程請文化部李部長來說明。"],["李部長遠：跟委員報告，有關義光教會的事情，其實我們人權館已經擬訂一個未來由民間主動申請時，我們給它一個不算是不義遺址，但是是具有轉型正義意義的場域這樣的名稱，作為一個暫時的取代。另外，有關不義遺址條例，去年7月18日送進立法院審議，我們在等待結果，但是目前促轉會給我們的42處不義遺址和64處潛在不義遺址……"],["張委員雅琳：部長，其實我想要知道的就是未來，因為我們還是要更積極的去審定，因為不義遺址其實一直不停被破壞，所以我們是不是可以有更積極的一個審定要點或暫行方案，這個部分是不是可以來……"],["李部長遠：是，可以，其實我們2026年以前就會把所有潛在不義遺址審定完畢，我們有在進行。"],["張委員雅琳：但是對於現在還有很多還沒有被認定的不義遺址，我們現在是沒有任何相關的審定要點。"],["李部長遠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：所以我們是不是可以來擬訂呢？"],["李部長遠：是，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：院長是不是可以責成文化部一個月以內提出一個相關的解決方案？可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當天總統所宣示的就是這個階段的起點。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們用這個起點，從不義遺址或是具有轉型正義意義的場域，我們就開始有個新的方式跟階段性的作為，文化部就會啟動。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那我希望可以在一個月以內看到相關的規劃，好嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：可以。"],["李部長遠：是，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝文化部。","接下來就是針對不義遺址的保存，其實威權象徵的去除也是轉型正義中相當重要的工作。最近中原大學自己主動決議，他們要配合轉型正義而去修改中正樓這個大樓的名稱，我認為這對轉型正義是一個非常大的進展，而這件事情之所以會成功，是我們的政策引導做出來的。所以我也想要請教，促轉會的報告有提到，其實我們現在還有非常多的路名要更名，所以我是不是可以請教交通部部長？時間可以暫停一下嗎？"],["主席：時間暫停。","請繼續質詢。"],["張委員雅琳：請問交通部部長，我們是不是可以依循內政部一些相關的補助方式，讓地方政府在進行交通建設的時候，在路名或站名的命名上，也能夠透過加分項目或者增加補助金額，引導縣市政府可以像中原大學這樣子自動自發地啟動更名作業。不要像去年桃園市政府當時引發了非常大的爭議，跟民眾的投票、民意完全背道而馳，把很多捷運站名用「中正」命名，這真的是大開轉型正義的倒車。不曉得交通部部長的想法是什麼？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，未來這個部分我們可以納入討論，我回到部裡面再跟部裡的同仁討論，未來的審核過程當中會把這個也納入。"],["張委員雅琳：對，這個部分的話，我們大概什麼時候可以有進一步的了解？"],["陳部長世凱：我跟內部先討論，一個月之內向委員報告。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝部長。","再來要請國發會主委上臺，時間暫停，謝謝。"],["主席：時間暫停。交通部請回。"],["張委員雅琳：文化部長和交通部長可以請回。"],["主席：文化部請回。","藉這個時間暫停順便宣告一下，我們的硬體建築就是3位，所以所有內閣閣員的備詢不要超過3位，一個是硬體建築，硬體設備就是3位；另外就是部長，今天的畫面太多……"],["張委員雅琳：對，我剛剛有請他們回去。"],["主席：我特別也跟院長、各部會閣員溝通一下，請儘量不要超過3位，畫面也不好看，好不好？好，請繼續。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝院長。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。去年總質詢的時候我特別提到，促轉基金應該開放給民間直接申請使用，當時也非常感謝院長馬上責成了國發會主委進行相關的研討。但最近我在追檔案局有沒有更細部的一些計畫時，我發現現在給我的這個方案，比較像是把各部會的相關計畫彙整成為一個平臺，讓大家可以知道可以從哪邊得到相關的補助，這比較像一個資訊的彙整平臺，跟我當時期待的方向不一樣。因為我的期待其實是希望可以讓民間團體直接申請，我們引進民間的活力推動各式各樣的轉型計畫，我覺得這也可以讓公私一起協力，但現在比較像是一個彙整平臺。所以我想要請教，我們有沒有可能在這個方向上面更打開一點，不要只是一個資訊平臺，還是你們其實是有這個方向在規劃？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員，我們今年會規劃一個您提的這個讓民間可以有機會申請的平臺。事實上，我也補充說明一下，我們從去年開始就修訂了條例，民間即可申請，只是我們的申請是到主要的6個部會去個別申請，原因是我們不希望資源重複浪費。舉例而言，如果是政治受難者家屬的心情平復，可能衛福部已經有案子在走的時候，如果民間再申請就會重複，所以我們希望他到衛福部申請，這樣的話衛福部可以統一資源，如果政府已經在做的，那就不一定民間就……要不要做，再由部會來做。所以將來這個平臺的整合，我們還是會整合進來，但是會回到由這6個部會、原來法定的6個部會各自審議。"],["張委員雅琳：但我想請教，我直接從後面的例子來討論好了，我不太確定如果用這樣子的方式，我們促轉基金的用途會不會非常地重複及狹隘？因為我覺得促轉基金的想像可以非常非常多元，以現在促轉基金裡面的一些規範來說，其實它並沒有非常非常地狹隘，可是我們過去的一些補助都還是在限縮原本一些既有的想像。","在國外，我想舉一個簡單的例子，柏林博物館也是紀念猶太人受難過程的一個博物館，他當時其實建了一個兒童場館，這個兒童場館是找兒童們一起來做一個審議會，一起討論這個遊戲場要變成什麼樣子，希望透過這個過程培力兒童可以參與公共事務、培力民主討論的機制。這樣子的事情在沖繩、美國都有類似的案例，我認為這其實就是公私協力的一個最好的方式。所以我想要了解，我們促轉基金要做到像這樣子的一個東西的話，如果有人提出這樣的創意，那他到底要到哪一個部會去申請，向既有的6個部會嗎？還是可以有一個更開放的平臺或組織可以協助他申請？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，非常謝謝委員，您的提議非常好，可以幫助我們做得更好。我們內部曾做過這個討論，我們希望如果是單一部會的話，我們就到部會去申請，但是跨部會的，我們有些做法可能會跨了兩個部會或三個部會的，我們希望是透過這個平臺進到國發會來做統合，國發會就會進行跨部會的……"],["張委員雅琳：所以國發會會由檔案局……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，檔案局就會……"],["張委員雅琳：還是檔案局嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，檔案局就會進行跨部會的協商來……"],["張委員雅琳：這個部分我也想請教一下，如果還是回到檔案局的話，我有一個問題想要跟主委再做一些討論，政治檔案的研究絕對是檔管局的專業，但是要去評估這麼多開放性的一些想像的時候，檔管局在專業上面是否足夠呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實這是一個很專業的問題，所以我們有一個促轉的委員會，會由這個委員會來協助評估，不是我們來評估，我們請了很多專家學者。"],["張委員雅琳：所以到時候促轉基金會有促轉的委員會來評估，檔管局只是來協助執行，是嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，其實各部會的資料也會送到這裡來做統籌的評估，我們會請專家來做評估。"],["張委員雅琳：因為我時間有限，有關這個平臺的細節就之後再持續跟國發會這邊來研究跟討論。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。","最後想要請教院長有關中正紀念堂的問題。根據2023年「行政院推動轉型正義業務中長程規劃暨監測指標建立方案」的計畫，去年的時候就應該完成相關修法的法制作業，但目前還是沒有完成，我在去年11月促轉會報上面的策進方案又再度看到說要去做相關法制的修正。針對中正紀念堂，過去我們其實已經開過非常多次的會，包含在促轉會期間就提過6個方案，在鄭麗君副院長擔任文化部長期間其實也召開了12場民間論壇，我想其實我們已經開了很多會，應該是時候來做一個決定了。","中正紀念堂的轉型應該是一個非常、非常重要的事情，其實我有看到中正紀念堂轉型小組的呂建興委員表示行政院曾經有意把中正紀念堂轉到人權館，對於這樣子的想法，我想請院長簡單回復一下您的看法是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：是的，我們在會議當中是想，這個中正紀念堂如果讓它有新的民主、人權的意義，那麼它未來的發展就不會是過去大家對威權的記憶。就像我小時候看總統府，它就是威權，可是我現在看總統府，它就是民主的象徵，因為我們用人民的力量改變了它的結構，改變了它的背景，也改變了它存在的意義，如果我們以同樣的力量，用更多的人權、文化、民主，甚至轉型正義的意義也在裡面，讓大家認為應該是對威權記憶的這些建築物轉化成這個功能的話，那又是給我們跟我們下一代新的一個精神上的啟示。"],["張委員雅琳：抱歉，院長，中正紀念堂的轉型是一個非常、非常重要的工作，我想我們還是必須直面歷史，基於過去中正紀念堂裡面的這一位、現在在裡面的這一位蔣介石先生對臺灣的一些傷害，我想這是一件非常困難的工作……"],["卓院長榮泰：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：但是我們也必須堅持啦！因為還是回到我剛剛講的那一句話，只有深化轉型正義，直面歷史，才能夠打造民主社會的韌性。"],["卓院長榮泰：完全支持、完全認同。"],["張委員雅琳：這個請院長一定要堅持。謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員、謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","接下來請登記第39號鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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汐止白袍乎的問題那接下來可能還會再跟你討論這個台階的問題啦我今天的順序大概是這樣子喔那也先跟讓幕僚知道可以先做一些我們希望有一些實質的討論啦那第一個就是我們的軌道建設啦我想先請教院長我們通案性的問題通案性的問題就是財化法通過之後原則上我們行政院補助地方的軌道建設的補助比例應該也會有所調整嘛對不對"},{"start":65.789,"end":85.769,"text":"財化法通過之後現在依照新修正的財化法從中央要少掉3753億那3753億從哪裡來總不能憑空掉下來所以一定會重新核定跟一些地方補助的案件甚至順序、時間、內容都要重新再看過所以我跟院長確認一下"},{"start":86.79,"end":101.406,"text":"新的案子用新的補助辦法這個我可以理解地方拿到更多錢負擔更多我都贊成所以剛剛院長的意思是已經核定的案件可能也會重新的拿出來審視一下補助的比例跟起承的問題是嗎"},{"start":102.347,"end":127.601,"text":"我會要求重新再來看看你需要調整可以調整而且必須調整的地方所以所有的案子你們都會調整那我了解OK那沒問題那我今天開始先第一個討論我們汐止汐止的軌道建設第一個我們汐止的軌道建設大概分成兩條線兩條線就是過去的汐止民生線跟基隆捷運那分三個部分因為汐止民生線差離一半就是從汐止到東湖先做東湖到大稻埕"},{"start":129.702,"end":155.549,"text":"目前還沒有準備要動工那汐止到東湖這一段預計要在後天3月20號新北市政府就要辦實質的這個主體工程的動工典禮了啦那這個一條線原本有十多站那當初可能因為種種的原因所以切開一半汐止這一邊 汐止到東湖先做那現在台北市也有意願要接續後續的一個工程就是從 也不是工程 就是規劃從東湖大到老城 他們現在也開始規劃了"},{"start":156.849,"end":174.521,"text":"那一條線當初被切了一半效益一定是比較差的那我請教院長您會不會也是認同這樣的觀念一條線應該要整條的來規劃才會是比較有效益的未來也是會建議地方政府積極的來把他們應該做的工作來完成來給地方 該來給中央政府進行審議"},{"start":175.722,"end":198.6,"text":"細節我請部長講 但我現在表示由此更看得出來 很多的相關工程 軌道 跨年度的 跨縣市的由各縣市去做 不見得是非常順暢的一件事情中央統一來規劃 計劃性的來規劃 才是國家整體建設的發展有過相關的論述 我覺得也是有部分是正確的"},{"start":199.521,"end":228.016,"text":"是 報告委員 過去會有這樣子的狀況是因為新北市政府跟台北市政府大家所持的立場對 這背景我知道 我只是想問一下我們的方向是不是支持地方政府來繼續來推動那當然地方政府該做的功課當然要做好嘛其實 其實民生汐止線這一段也相當的有需要啦所以這個部分我們當然希望可以整段一起來規劃那過去的台北市政府或許他沒有這樣子的意願不過現在的台北市政府他們有這樣子的意願我覺得新北市政府跟台北市政府要好好去談"},{"start":228.536,"end":252.576,"text":"好,所以我想大家的方向都一樣,那各自要努力,大家就各自努力,好謝謝那另外一個是我們的基隆捷運,因為過去這個基隆捷運的一開始我們行政院核定的方案是700億嘛那前兩天有新聞出來,就大概新北市政府目前原本要送給中央的是1200億嘛,對不對那當然我們現在交通部建議他先依照700億來先送省嘛,這是700億,核定的部分先做加快來啟程"},{"start":253.317,"end":279.522,"text":"但是後續還是有這500億的差距啦我們先不討論這個補助集聚的問題這個是整個行政院的方針的問題那我有去跟新北市政府了解那大概500億的差距大概有以下幾項分別是我們這個暫停的一個設計啦過去可能是簡易的後車停那他們就提升標準為中運量的標準設置包括我們的廁所這個收費閘門等等的那包括我們無障礙電梯啊我們手扶梯等等他可能會新增這些項目"},{"start":280.242,"end":300.32,"text":"那以及有部分的基隆的路段可能因為跟台鐵路線競合的關係他必須要從平面改成高架還有當然第三點就是大家都會遇到的問題原物料波動的問題那這個就這三項那新北市政府就是可能他們在預估未來在招標的時候可能會實際上要到1200億才能夠把整體的工程來完成"},{"start":300.7,"end":312.275,"text":"那我想確認一下我們這個行政院跟交通部的態度只要我們的地方政府核實的編列沒有服報那我們是不是會繼續願意支持他後續的這個修正計畫院長"},{"start":317.204,"end":334.411,"text":"這段的捷運其實中央相當的支持我們也希望能夠做好不過當時核定的金額是六百多億快七百億那現在新北市政府拿出一個一千兩百多億的預算而且他沒有經過修正計畫的過程直接就拿出來了那這個對交通部來講會"},{"start":336.411,"end":354.458,"text":"他們會依照修正內政交通部的意見來行我認為他應該依照正軌就是走修正的這個方案修正的計畫提出來之後交通部自然會來審有沒有哪個部分是不合理的如果是合理的話這個方向是大家都希望能夠推動的嘛基隆的捷運是大家都希望推動的所以我們也會來幫忙"},{"start":355.558,"end":374.182,"text":"基隆捷運會繼續的來推動不會因為這可能增加的這可能要給更好的一個搭乘體驗而增加出來的金額而可能去把它中止方向應該是一樣的那當然必須要做的這個地方政府要做的話跟中央的審核那就是照程序來走我們中央會繼續支持這個案子嘛"},{"start":374.742,"end":393.785,"text":"要看他提出來的修正合不合理目前我完全沒有看到修正的計畫只有看到一個一千兩百多億的預算那也跟之前所合訂的過程當中包含之前在審這個可行性評估的時候其實新北市政府也都參與在內啊為什麼現在會突然提出一個一千兩百五到目前為止還不知道答案"},{"start":394.175,"end":423.835,"text":"好沒關係這個報告裡面後續應該都在提修正報告的時候都會呈現那就是我們不會因為這一天兩把一看到就嚇到了至少我們會務實的來審查他的必要性我只要確認這一點那當然院長你也放心我說我不知道我們跟您討論過我當然對基隆捷運的規劃是有一點微遲我希望有一個更好的一個部分就是部分的路線是有板南線的延伸那當然既然已經沒有辦法了我們已經定案了我也會跟行政院一樣立場跟地方政府一樣的立場讓這個案子能夠進出了來推動"},{"start":425.716,"end":450.255,"text":"三個方向第一個現在沒有送到交通部任何的修正計畫所以沒有所謂打回票這件事因為沒有計畫第二個就算要送修正計畫也要合理要合理的對內容做合理的精算再來新北也好基隆市也好甚至台北市也好都要有同樣的共識才能把這個計畫完成好沒問題地方政府現在就是先把這七百億做好"},{"start":450.715,"end":478.127,"text":"然後之後的修正再請行政院再協助審議那剛剛部長講的部分原則上院長也大概都認同嘛交通部在程序裡面要按照執行但是一定要合理好沒問題好謝謝那軌道的建設先到這邊那接下來是我們這個台六十二線分別有延伸萬里跟萬里金山還有延伸萬里兩個方向都有延伸嘛那在去年的時候也謝謝行政院在3月19號的時候合訂了那合訂了過後"},{"start":480.38,"end":496.338,"text":"原本計劃是今生萬里一次送交通部的方案是這樣子但是我們行政院後續合訂了到萬里的部分這是可行性評估的部分交通部也很幫忙地方的期待能夠說我們只要一條路一定是先到萬里"},{"start":496.798,"end":524.257,"text":"才會到金山嘛大家都可以理解但是大家希望說未來的這個可行性的評估也都能夠納到延伸萬里的綜合規劃報告裡面在一併的討論因為這次可行就只有延伸到萬里嘛金山沒有核定那藉由到萬里的重規一併把金山的可行再重新納進來討論那這樣子的一個方向交通部有幫忙了有這樣子在做了那我不曉得院方面是不是也支持這樣子的方向繼續來做一些相關的討論跟審核"},{"start":526.938,"end":540.963,"text":"報告委員,這個部分其實我們針對萬里的部分,我們會盡量來努力在114年的2月已經提出了綜合規劃的初期報告那您在講金山的這一段,我們後續會繼續來努力好,那我也希望請院長幫忙可不可以"},{"start":542.3,"end":570.028,"text":"交通部已經知道這個案子的後續的狀況那地方的需求他們當然會很審慎的去回答當然他們已經幫忙了 已經呈現在報告內了啦還是要拜託院長多多幫忙好的 謝謝可以嗎謝謝 幫忙啦好不好我們盡全力地方的需求依照我們的專業的審核盡量的來幫忙 謝謝院長那接下來台六十二線延伸到宜蘭這個比較單純啦因為已經交通部送到國發會了嘛那國發會也已經"},{"start":571.348,"end":595.555,"text":"通過了,也不是通過,就是他們建議繼續往後續的綜合公開報告來推進目前案子已經送到行政院了你也不要請部長回答了因為案子已經在行政院了你們會簽合嗎?讓這個交通部來進行後續的綜合公開報告嗎?我們看看案的內容,同時要看未來整個中央財政跟地方如何來做分擔所以你知道要送過去了嗎?"},{"start":597.157,"end":618.17,"text":"我是還沒有看到可能幕僚單位還在看 這沒關係那院長可不可以給我一個時間你們多久以內我們回去以後趕快把這個現在流程跑到哪裡去盡快把它就在你們這邊啦院裡面還有院的流程給個時間好不好多久以內我沒有叫你答應 而是多久時間可以可能有一個明確的回應 有沒有辦法"},{"start":619.705,"end":630.637,"text":"我會回去馬上跟委員報告說我們現在流程到哪裡了那我們一般正常流程我們把它跑完一個月內有一個出入的方向好不好報告委員我補充一下"},{"start":631.4,"end":653.061,"text":"其實現在不只是總預算的問題還有才化法的問題所以整個中央包含交通部在內到底未來有多少預算可以用在交通上面的建設我們到現在還沒有很具體的把握坦白講所以對於未來的大型的建設尤其是這個比較長線的建設它的經費非常的龐大所以這個的思考我覺得或許會需要一些時間這一點跟您報告好沒關係"},{"start":655.653,"end":674.831,"text":"這個應該是部長講,不應該是院長講好啦謝謝,再拜託院長再來看是不是在一個月之內的時間給一個初步的回應好不好,我沒有要求你一定要在一個月內核定但是我希望先了解一下我們現在院已經這個審核到什麼樣的程度這樣子剛剛的意思是我跟委員講現在流程到哪裡那我們可能還需要什麼樣的過程其實部長講的那個是重點"},{"start":676.113,"end":694.871,"text":"好 謝謝交通部的案子大概就到這邊接下來討論台大金山分院的案子這個案子比較小啦台大金山分院雖然小但是對地方很重要啦先謝謝台大金山分院長期以來對北海岸鄉親的健康的照顧那也因為他們付出很多大家都評價也非常高"},{"start":696.232,"end":715.558,"text":"所以台大金山分院有一個擴建計畫他們要新蓋一棟長照機醫療綜合大樓那也經過行政院的核定了只是說你也知道院長也知道物價波動有時候發包沒有那麼容易所以說招標不出去目前台大醫院非常的幫忙教育部也幫忙他們可能先留用一下建設經費"},{"start":717.718,"end":736.186,"text":"設備的經費設備經費先流用到建設經費上面來但是後面還是有一些資金的缺口未來可能還是要修正的計畫原本大概十億出頭的一個經費大概只會多一億多啦那這部分是不是院長也能夠在這邊能夠幫忙一下照顧一下我們北海岸的鄉親能夠讓這個建設早日的讓他完成這樣子"},{"start":737.166,"end":757.053,"text":"謝德委員台大青山分院我的了解一直是一所相當有特色專業經營的一所醫院也深受地方人士所依賴健康上的維持那目前它的長照以及醫療綜合大樓興建工程原編預算總經費是13.12億但是經過兩次的流標都沒有辦法順利的來達成那至於現在預計是"},{"start":764.628,"end":768.171,"text":"3月已經又繼續上網公告了預計在4月還要進行以後就會進行5月進行開標"},{"start":772.874,"end":798.963,"text":"4月截止5月進行開票我們當然希望這個開票能夠順利他們會很幫忙先上網公報招標但是經費的缺口還是在後續還是會送修正計畫經費現在是編13.1億而已再拜託我們的院長以後如果說教育部送修正計畫上來的時候再拜訪我們的院長能夠多多支持讓工程能夠不希望他順利開票順利開票完之後我們只要有缺口我們行政院都會支持我可以這樣理解嗎"},{"start":799.96,"end":805.726,"text":"我今天跟你很理性的討論院長我們就不要扯那些好不好我今天跟你還滿愉快的那接下來我要討論這個白袍湖的事情"},{"start":820.648,"end":838.685,"text":"這個白袍湖的案子啦這個年初總預算的時候我有刪除預算嘛這個院長多少可能也有注意到一個民意代表刪了地方的預算你老實講我有沒有壓力我當然有壓力啦但是為了地方好我相信我一定比院長我一定比認證部比規劃的人都還了解細節我為了說這樣子的計畫有調整的空間"},{"start":842.918,"end":858.963,"text":"社宅在國外經驗非常多年所以他們也會有一些指引社宅挑選的地點非常重要所以說包括聯合國以及OECD都有一些指引希望說它與既有的社區或者是透過都市開發的手段"},{"start":859.943,"end":879.432,"text":"與鄰近的住宅去做結合但是我們白袍湖的社宅它是用這個造陣的方式那當然造陣裡面可能你們還加了一些運動設施或者是社福設施等等的但是你們畢竟還是讀書一格的社會住宅那它可能就會產生了國外長期以來過去發生的這個因為孤立性導致標籤化的問題那這一點我們的規劃單位其實一直都沒有詳盡的說明"},{"start":885.134,"end":911.861,"text":"那包括還有其他的問題可能交通的問題啊當初原本的規劃我記得不是一千戶現在原本的後來修正到一千戶原本是兩千戶也是因為交通的問題所以說規劃單位自己有去說的量力他們也知道這個問題但是實際的交通影響評估也還沒有出來那包括其實預算去年就編了嘛那今年一月內政部自己內部的會議其實還在進行當中很多的老師都有提出許多的意見就是"},{"start":913.241,"end":923.946,"text":"我認為整個過程還沒有經過完善的一個討論那就可能非常匆忙的一個上路那所以說我就是有提案把這個預算刪除那在這邊先跟院長跟部長做一個討論我希望說這個案子"},{"start":929.063,"end":953.264,"text":"後續的規劃你們目前還是要依照原定的規劃再編一次預算嗎還是說你們願意跟我或是地方再多一點的討論來討論我們白袍湖這塊地到底要怎麼使用才是最恰當的我個人的意見當然是希望說之前部長應該比較清楚我希望說能夠引入一些作為產業的園區因為產業園區它的交通的方向性不一樣它比較不會造成地方交通的問題"},{"start":955.086,"end":983.343,"text":"那包括可能輝達在找地點啊可能台積電也在拜託總統嘛都是需要大面積的一個土地我覺得都可以去評估看看不一定說一定能成或者是這是最好的方案但是我就希望說能夠有一些多一些的討論那不曉得我們現在院或者部的立場現在目前是怎麼樣首先很遺憾這個社宅的這個預算被刪除掉之後現在而且刪除的結果產生了不合理的狀況那至於我們當然還是希望努力"},{"start":984.404,"end":1004.37,"text":"努力能夠讓社宅的這個興建有它的時機的能夠興建的完成但是如果沒有辦法的話那內政部是要改變過去的計畫或是要怎麼做我們請部長來說明其實我先回答院長啊社宅我當然個人非常知我一上任就找了很多的地點在幫忙找地點我相信國家住居中心也非常清楚這個問題"},{"start":1005.33,"end":1022.963,"text":"我推薦的多少地點給國家住住中心去設置只是我對於地點的選擇跟內政部可能有一些不一樣的意見好不好我在這邊再補充說明一下我們在評估的時候其實新北市政府已經同意我們的想法希望在白袍湖的地方設置社宅而且做一個生態園區他們要生態園區啦"},{"start":1027.438,"end":1049.295,"text":"很遺憾的就是說總共被刪除了一億六千萬所以包括設宅的興建簡列一千戶或者是生態園區的工程現在完全停擺那這個預算到底未來能不能通過我們都不知道然後再來就是委員所提到的說要變成運動員或運動產業中心到目前為止我們還沒有看到新北市政府是不是同意這樣的方向"},{"start":1049.875,"end":1071.916,"text":"那再來委員有提到說未來要讓台積電來設廠等等這些如果只有一個18.95公頃的地方台積電要設廠這個土地的面積未免太小所以我是覺得根本就是退回原來重新再考量我覺得很可惜原來新北市政府跟我們的國土署已經講好做設宅而且是做個小造鎮那在上一次委員在質詢的時候其實我們也把這個計畫"},{"start":1073.297,"end":1095.815,"text":"委員報告過 那委員雖然說有不同的見解但是基本上我們原先會覺得是繼續往前走但是沒有想到這一次呢在預算的時候全部被刪除再加上一六千萬之外還有一個三百萬是被倒扣回來的也就是說全部都刪除之外還有個三百萬我們還要再付三百萬的這個支出所以我覺得這個計畫到目前為止大概是完全停擺當中"},{"start":1096.616,"end":1122.053,"text":"沒關係 那未來的土地利用你們還有沒有要做相關的討論他會不會把地方的民意包括我本人的意見大家一起集思廣益一起來把這塊土地做最完善的利用包括社宅我當初有表明立場除了社宅你的社福設施就是長照的或者是運動等等的這些我都支持嘛但我就是對於社宅的責點我認為他應該要在大眾運輸旁邊包括在汐止的"},{"start":1122.873,"end":1136.468,"text":"火車站旁邊我都建議你們應該要去做一些規劃我想這個目標方向都是一樣的那未來的規劃我想確認一下你們還會不會去做後續的討論那會不會有機會來做一個重新的規劃"},{"start":1138.261,"end":1159.975,"text":"報告委員,如果我們所有的預算都被刪減掉的話,我覺得我們現在先不要輕舉妄動就是說如果沒有預算我們怎麼再重新規劃或者重新評估你今天沒預算嘛,你當初規劃是幾年前就開始規劃的,那時候有預算嗎?幾年前開始規劃是幾百萬,剛剛我跟委員報告的部分是說所以你說現在開始規劃,重新討論,討一個大家都支持的方向"},{"start":1161.243,"end":1188.269,"text":"然後之後再依序來規劃所有的公共工程建設都本來就是這樣子哪一個案子一開始規劃就有錢那可能會拖比較長一點的時間也請委員多多支持所以你們還是要堅持百跑湖就是按照原定的計畫在推動嗎我相信中間的新北市政府他們在評估規劃的時候跟我們國土署有專業的考量跟參考台北新北市政府就是要那個生態園區而已啦好沒關係我在這邊跟你做理性的討論我們能夠這樣很理性的討論公共政策很好"},{"start":1188.729,"end":1214.171,"text":"是不是我們原編的計畫能夠請內政部跟委員在座溝通說明是要加強什麼樣的功能在裡面或是做什麼樣的調整最好是能夠讓這個設宅的計畫能夠在這裡能夠落實下去那周遭的一些如果可以微調的話我們來跟委員商量對地方有利的對未來發展好的委員長承諾了我就相信您那後續就拜託內政部多多的我們這邊再做接洽"},{"start":1216.213,"end":1226.819,"text":"接下來大家互相溝通一下我不想在這邊做任何吵架地方的事情一吵架了就沒有共識了這也不是我願意的先謝謝院長,謝謝部長接下來我想討論一下台積電的問題這個問題可能會比較刺激一點"},{"start":1237.403,"end":1250.094,"text":"我先跟院長確認一下美國總統川普就任之後對美國貿易逆差大的國家提出了很多課徵關稅提高關稅的做法這樣子的做法您認同嗎"},{"start":1251.757,"end":1267.593,"text":"任何一個國家平衡自己的貿易都應該是他對外經貿政策其中很重要的一部分這也是雙方平等互惠互相幫忙互相成長互相發展平等互惠我支持啦你汽車課我多少我課你多少對大家一樣嘛但不能夠因為貿易逆差"},{"start":1268.954,"end":1283.22,"text":"關稅是一回事貿易逆差是一回事貿易順差還是逆差這是大家的本事怎麼可以用關稅的這個手段來要求別人一定要什麼我賺你錢就要還你錢這樣的道理我個人是非常不支持院長你要幫美國講話"},{"start":1284.98,"end":1303.006,"text":"我說每個國家都會把這件問題當作重要那麼要去如何平衡貿易有很多的路徑跟手段方法很多大家選擇各種不同的方式那因為美國先前也對墨西哥跟加拿大有一些新聞你都有看到嘛提高關稅你來我往什麼的那我們有沒有內部我們討論過假設美國也對我們中華民國對我們台灣"},{"start":1307.947,"end":1326.295,"text":"提出了一些不合理的關稅的加成我們要怎麼因應有沒有討論過模擬過沙盤推演所以美國對外的一些關係也引起不同國家不同的反應有的比較激烈但是至少現在對我們來講我們還在很合理平穩的狀態下雙方進行必要的溝通所以你們會不會"},{"start":1327.355,"end":1348.429,"text":"我們當然有一些想法但是現在我們沒有遇到困難外交的問題不需要大家在這裡先好像先下手為強或先大聲我們已經有我們的因應所以你能夠保證如果說美國對我們中華民國對我們台灣有不合理的關稅措施的話我們一定會有反擊措施第一個我們會極力爭取不公平的這個關稅對待我國第一個"},{"start":1349.714,"end":1370.581,"text":"極力爭取避免不公平的關稅第二在對等關稅當中一定要雙方基於平等爭取是一種我可以講你聽不聽是一回事但是我可以做什麼是我可以自己決定現在還沒有發聲請部長來說沒關係你們有沙盤推演你們有覆案你們能夠保護國內的產業不要美國說抬高關稅然後我們什麼事情都沒辦法做"},{"start":1371.499,"end":1392.817,"text":"那就可以了當然 我們維持我們的領先而且我們避免 我們絕對要阻止我們的產業空洞化被懷疑另外就是不公平的關稅 我們會極力的避免好沒關係 你們有覆案 你不一定要在這邊講喔我講了出來就好像在對美國嗆聲我也不知道這樣的意思好不好 但是你們至少有覆案那接下來回到晶片關稅本身吼川普之前說對台灣晶片課這100%的關稅那院長了解這100%的關稅是怎麼課的嗎"},{"start":1399.375,"end":1418.565,"text":"報告這個委員我想這個100%的關稅只是他們放出來的一種說法但是對我們到目前為止我們並沒有說到這樣的一個我們有去了解嗎我們當然有去了解那他的100%關稅是怎麼克罰100%的關稅怎麼克罰我問的是晶片它不是一個終端銷售的產品嗎"},{"start":1421.588,"end":1444.114,"text":"所以我們到目前為止都一直在收集市場上面然後跟他們對方我們跟他們在溝通到底你這個100%是要怎麼課稅是終端產品還是在PayPal上面的產品還是在用每一個Element去計算這個大家都還在溝通部長講的就是我要問的"},{"start":1444.434,"end":1464.241,"text":"所以我們的政府到目前為止還沒有理解川普政府所說100%的關稅到底是課晶片本身還是後續加工的產品或是終端的手機產品到目前為止我們還沒有任何的訊息他會怎麼課我們不是沒有任何的訊息我們只是我們各種的這個simulation都有"},{"start":1465.287,"end":1488.127,"text":"我們都有各種評估不會說只有單一像委員你所說的這樣子我們都沒有我們做很多的評估A案 B案 C案 D案 每一種你都評估過了都評估過好 謝謝那我想因為台灣的台積電的產品單就晶片本身出口到美國的比例我看新聞報導上面寫大概是不到5%啦"},{"start":1489.148,"end":1510.026,"text":"所以說單就晶片來課稅的話老實說對於台積電根本是沒有任何的影響影響微乎其微那如果說是對終端的產品來課稅的話那就會有影響但是好像國際上從來沒有針對終端產品中的某一項的原件去課稅都是對終端產品的物件去課稅嘛所以說我才會去疑惑"},{"start":1510.866,"end":1531.025,"text":"美國政府到底是要對晶片怎麼去克法是 報告委員我想你這個質詢是非常正確啦但是美國到目前為止他也沒有講說他要怎麼克只是講說他要克100%所以對我們來講我們必須要去模擬各種不同的情境然後提出我們因應的方法"},{"start":1531.966,"end":1555.969,"text":"所以台積電他可能也不知道但是他就決定了去美國投資其實說真的我對於其實大家都很不理解台積電為什麼要去美國投資如果說單對晶片來課稅的話就成如剛剛講的不到5%影響維護其為那我不曉得台積電有沒有被美國威脅過台積電不是一個整合上下中油產業的一家企業半導體制程是非常複雜的每一個人都專心在他每一個的項目"},{"start":1557.422,"end":1585.15,"text":"台積電如果說上游的原料被斷掉的話台積電沒有辦法運作就像現在美國要用EUV去這個牽制大陸的一個半導體產業的發展有沒有聽說過美國曾經想要用這個控制原物料原件的方法例如說一些我看一下 比如說晶圓矽晶圓或是光阻劑等等的這些可能在日本獨佔市場的一些原料來牽制台積電"},{"start":1586.7,"end":1606.466,"text":"聽委員講委員的質詢應該是對這個產業有相當的了解不過我們也應該有信心台積電是一個世界性的大公司他到世界全球做佈局他不僅要了解經濟的發展趨勢甚至整個國際政經情勢軍事發展國防他都要了解我們任何一個人"},{"start":1607.126,"end":1633.249,"text":"都不可能的想自己的想法超越整個台積電的評估但是因為台積電在一月法說會過後就很明確的講不會去美國這個去美國門都沒有那兩個月的時間不知道我的世界發生了什麼變化讓他突然改變了心意所以說我才會懷疑是不是台積電有沒有被世界的變化是蠻快的台積電有沒有受到一些不公平的一些對待"},{"start":1633.752,"end":1660.564,"text":"我想報告委員我想這個半導體您這麼熟悉這個是相當不簡單但是我要跟您報告的就是說在整個台積電的這個他們這麼優秀的一個公司我想他對海外的這個進出一定有他們所有的考慮那他們這個考慮不會這麼倉促也不會說這麼高的一個投資金額可以就是一個人去做決定所以以我們"},{"start":1662.084,"end":1688.975,"text":"對國際企業了解的程度來講的話他只有兩個目的會到這個海外去做第一個就是思考的是當地的市場有沒有這個市場的需求第二個考慮的是有沒有當地的資源他的說法我大概知道啦那那個台積電的部分我們就反正沒有人證實我們也沒辦法揣測啦我只能亂猜一通嘛那回到我們國內台積電到美國投資一千億這件事情"},{"start":1689.969,"end":1714.104,"text":"有沒有影響到輝達在台灣設立研發中心這件事情這件事情有沒有受到相關的一些擱置還是繼續的推動報告委員這個你也是內行我可以跟你報告台積電的這個RD工程師大概分成三種第一種叫Research第二種叫Develop第三個叫做Manufacture也就是improve他良率的工程師"},{"start":1716.103,"end":1721.568,"text":"這個台積電這三種的工程師三種的研發工程師加起來有一萬四千位"},{"start":1722.871,"end":1751.843,"text":"這個就是凝聚我快沒時間了我想問一下輝達在台灣設立研發中心這件事情有沒有因此擱置這兩個沒有正相關所以輝達還是繼續的在找地嗎輝達一定會在台灣我是在繼續輔導嘛跟委員報告台積電在台灣既有的投資計畫不會改變其他的主要的大廠在台灣既有的現代投資計畫也持續會進行我最後一個問題我們有沒有評估過假設台積電的這一千億的美金"},{"start":1753.168,"end":1779.973,"text":"改投資在台灣那這一千億的美金的投資可以為我們國內包括建廠土建工程的從建廠開始的就業機會報我們的他生產晶片所產生的就業機會所創造的GDP或者是我們的每年的稅收包括我們上中下游產業的一些就業人員或者是GDP的影響跟稅收的影響我們有沒有進行評估過了"},{"start":1781.428,"end":1797.628,"text":"報告委員台積電在台灣有11個廠現在要開始做有11個廠他去美國只是對沒關係我就單純討論這1000億如果留在台灣他可以創造多少的就業機會我們的經濟價值我們的GDP我們的稅收我們這點有沒有評估過了"},{"start":1800.591,"end":1824.837,"text":"報告委員我覺得這個不是取代性的問題所以在美國投資的一千億台灣的投資會改變這對台積電來講我當然不能替他發言但是我在觀察對台積電來講希望我們的政府能夠做詳細的評估這個一千億是如虎添翼的一千億又像當初的福茂大家會希望了解對國內經濟的衝擊嗎一樣的這一千億如果說我們的政府能留在台灣這些就是我們台灣的啊並不是取代性希望我們能夠做詳細的評估好 謝謝廖先祥委員的質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":40,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（14時46分）謝謝主席，麻煩請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長再次備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：廖委員好。"],["廖委員先翔：院長午安。我今天的質詢大概有幾個方向，幕僚可以先準備一下，沒關係。首先會先跟你討論地方的軌道建設，接下來可能是臺62線延伸的問題，然後再來臺大金山分院的擴建，最後是汐止白匏湖的問題，接下來可能還會再跟你討論台積電的問題。我今天的順序大概是這樣子，也先讓幕僚知道，可以先做一些準備，我們希望能有一些實質的討論。","第一個就是我們的軌道建設，我想先請教院長一個通案性的問題，就是財劃法通過之後，原則上行政院補助地方軌道建設的比例應該也會有所調整，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：財劃法通過之後，依照現在新修正的財劃法，中央要少掉3,753億，那3,753億從哪裡來？總不能憑空掉下來，所以一定會重新核定一些地方的補助案件，甚至順序、時間、內容都要重新再看過。"],["廖委員先翔：所以我跟院長確認一下，新的案子用新的補助辦法，這個我可以理解，地方拿到更多錢，負擔更多，我都贊成，所以剛剛院長的意思是，已經核定的案件，可能也會重新拿出來審視一下補助的比例跟期程的問題是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我會要求重新再來看看，包括有需要調整、可以調整，而且必須調整的地方。"],["廖委員先翔：好，所以所有的案子你們都會調整？好，那我了解，OK，沒問題。","今天我第一個先討論我們汐止的軌道建設，汐止的軌道建設大概分成兩條線，這兩條線就是過去的汐止民生線跟基隆捷運，分為三個部分，因為汐止民生線切了一半，就是從汐止到東湖先做，東湖到大稻埕目前還沒有準備動工，汐止到東湖這一段，預計後天3月20號新北市政府就要舉辦實質的主體工程動工典禮了，這一條線原本有十多站，當初可能因為種種原因所以切開一半，汐止到東湖這邊先做，現在臺北市也有意願要接續後續的規劃，從東湖到大稻埕，他們現在也開始規劃了，當初一條線被切了一半，效益一定是比較差的。我請教院長，您會不會也認同這樣的觀念，一條線應該要整條的來規劃才比較有效益？未來也會建議地方政府積極的把他們應該做的工作完成，再提給中央政府進行審議。"],["卓院長榮泰：細節部分我請部長說明，但我現在表示……"],["廖委員先翔：方向就好。"],["卓院長榮泰：由此更看得出來，很多的相關工程、軌道，跨年度的、跨縣市的由各縣市去做不見得是非常順暢的一件事情，中央統一來規劃、計畫性的來規劃，才是國家整體建設的發展。接著請部長來答復。"],["廖委員先翔：當然，這其實有過相關的論述，我也覺得有部分是正確的。"],["陳部長世凱：是，報告委員，過去會有這樣子的狀況是因為新北市政府跟臺北市政府大家所持的立場……"],["廖委員先翔：這個背景我知道，我只是想問一下你們的方向，是不是支持地方政府繼續推動？地方政府該做的功課當然要做好嘛！"],["陳部長世凱：其實民生汐止線這一段也相當有需要，所以我們當然希望可以整段一起來規劃，過去臺北市政府或許沒有這樣子的意願，不過現在臺北市政府有這樣子的意願，我覺得新北市政府跟臺北市政府要好好去談。"],["廖委員先翔：既然大家的方向都一樣，需要大家各自努力的就各自努力。"],["陳部長世凱：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：另外一個是基隆捷運。過去基隆捷運一開始行政院核定的方案是700億，但前兩天有新聞出來，即新北市政府原本要送給中央的案子是1,200億，對不對？交通部建議先依以700億送審，就是核定的部分來加快期程，但後續還是有500億的差距。我們先不討論補助級距的問題，畢竟這是行政院整體方針問題。我有向新北市政府了解，這500億的差距大概有以下幾項：第一，分別是站體設計，過去可能是簡易候車亭，現在提升為中運量的標準設置，包括廁所、收費閘門、無障礙電梯、手扶梯等等，可能會新增這些項目；第二，由於有部分在基隆的路段可能跟臺鐵有路線競合關係，所以必須從平面改成高架；第三，這是大家都會遇到的問題──原物料波動問題。就這三項，新北市政府預估未來招標時可能實際上要到1,200億才能夠完成整體工程。我想確認一下行政院跟交通部的態度，只要地方政府核實編列，沒有浮報，是不是會願意繼續支持相關的後續修正計畫？"],["陳部長世凱：這段捷運其實中央相當支持，我們也希望能夠做好，不過當時核定的金額是六百多億……"],["廖委員先翔：對，快七百億。"],["陳部長世凱：快七百億。現在新北市政府拿出一千二百多億的預算，且沒有經過修正計畫的過程就直接拿出來了，對交通部來講會覺得滿怪的……"],["廖委員先翔：他們會依照交通部的意見來修正……"],["陳部長世凱：我認為他應該依照正軌，也就是走修正的方案，在修正計畫提出來之後，交通部自然會來審，看有沒有哪個部分是不合理的？如果合理，且方向是大家都希望能夠推動的，基隆捷運是大家都希望推動的，所以我們也會來幫忙。"],["廖委員先翔：所以基隆捷運會繼續推動，不會因為要給乘客有更好的搭乘體驗所可能增加出來的金額而讓它終止？方向應該是一樣的，地方政府必須要做的規劃跟中央的審核，就是照程序來走……"],["陳部長世凱：看地方政府所提出來的修正……"],["廖委員先翔：中央會繼續支持這個案子？"],["陳部長世凱：要看地方政府所提出的修正合不合理。目前我們完全沒有看到修正計畫，只看到一千二百多億的預算，其實在核定過程當中，包含之前審可行性評估時，新北市政府也都參與在內……"],["廖委員先翔：對。"],["陳部長世凱：為什麼現在會突然提出1,250？到目前為止我們還不知道答案。"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，後續提修正報告時應該都會呈現，而你們不會因為看到1,200億就嚇到，至少會務實來審查其必要性，我只是要確認這一點。當然，院長也可以放心……不知道有沒有跟您討論過，其實我對基隆捷運的規劃是有一點微詞的。因為有一個部分我希望能更好，也就是部分路線能由板南線來延伸，但現在已經沒有辦法了，既然定案了，我會跟行政院、跟地方政府持一樣的立場，讓這個案子能儘速來推動，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：三個方向跟委員報告：第一個，現在沒有任何修正計畫送到交通部，所以沒有所謂打回票這件事，因為沒有計畫；第二個，就算要送修正計畫，也要合理，即合理對內容做合理精算。再來，新北市也好，基隆市也好，甚至臺北市也好，都要有同樣的共識，才能把這個計畫完成。"],["廖委員先翔：沒問題。地方政府現在就是先把這七百億做好，然後再送修正請行政院協助審議。剛剛部長講的部分原則上院長大概都認同吧？"],["卓院長榮泰：請交通部按照程序來執行，但一定要合理。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒問題。謝謝，軌道建設先到這邊。","接下來，臺62線分別延伸至萬里、金山，兩個方向都有延伸，謝謝行政院在去年時3月19日時核定了。核定過後，原本的計畫是金山及萬里一次送，交通部的方案是這樣子；但行政院後續只核定到萬里的部分，這是可行性評估的部分，交通部也很幫忙，地方也很期待。我們都知道一條路一定是先到萬里，才會到金山，這點大家都可以理解。但是大家希望未來的可行性評估能夠納入延伸至萬里的綜合規劃報告裡，再一併討論，因為目前的可行性就只延伸到萬里，金山沒有核定。所以希望藉由到萬里的綜規，一併把金山的可行性再重新納進來討論，這樣的方向交通部有幫忙，也這樣子在做了，不曉得行政院是不是也支持這樣的方向，繼續來做相關的討論跟審核？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實針對萬里的部分，我們會儘量來努力，這個在114年2月已經提出綜合規劃的初期報告，至於您講的金山這一段，我們後續會繼續來努力。"],["廖委員先翔：我也希望請院長幫忙，可不可以？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，交通部已經知道這個案子的後續狀況，對於地方的需求，他們當然會很審慎地去回應。"],["廖委員先翔：他們已經幫忙了，已經呈現在報告內了，還是要拜託院長多多幫忙。"],["卓院長榮泰：好的，謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：可以嗎？院長就說「謝謝」，要幫忙啦，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們盡全力，對於地方的需求，我們都會盡全力。"],["廖委員先翔：依照我們的專業審核，儘量的來幫忙。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝院長。","接下來是臺62線延伸到宜蘭，這個比較單純，因為交通部已經送到國發會，國發會也已經通過了，也不是通過啦，就是他們建議繼續往後續的綜合規劃報告來推進，目前案子送到行政院了，你也不要請部長回答了，因為案子已經在行政院了，你們會簽核讓交通部來進行後續的綜合規劃報告嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會看看案子的內容，同時要看未來整個中央財政跟地方如何來做分擔。"],["廖委員先翔：所以你知道案子送過去了嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我是還沒有看到。"],["廖委員先翔：還沒有看到？"],["卓院長榮泰：我還沒有看到，可能還沒有到我這邊。"],["廖委員先翔：可能幕僚單位還在看，沒關係，院長，可不可以給我一個時間，你們多久以內可以……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們回去以後趕快看一下現在這個案子的流程跑到哪裡了，儘快去進行。"],["廖委員先翔：就在你那邊啦！"],["卓院長榮泰：對啦，院裡面還有院的流程嘛！"],["廖委員先翔：給個時間好不好？多久以內？我沒叫你答應，而是多久時間可以有一個明確的回應，有沒有辦法？"],["卓院長榮泰：好，我回去後會馬上跟委員報告我們現在的流程到哪裡了，一般的正常流程我們把它跑完。"],["廖委員先翔：一個月內有個初步的方向，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，我補充一下。其實現在不只是總預算的問題，還有財劃法的問題，所以整個中央包含交通部在內，未來到底有多少預算可以用在交通建設上，坦白講我們到現在還沒有很具體的把握。所以對於未來大型建設，尤其是這種比較長線的建設，它的經費非常龐大，所以這個的思考或許會需要一些時間，這一點跟您報告。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，這個應該是由院長講啦！好，謝謝，再拜託院長看看是不是能在一個月內給個初步的回應，好不好？我沒有要求你一定要在一個月內核定，但是我希望先瞭解現在院已經審核到什麼樣的程度。"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛的意思是說，我會跟委員說現在流程到哪裡、我們可能還需要什麼樣的過程，其實部長講的那個是重點啦。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝，交通部的案子就到這邊。","接下來要討論臺大金山分院的案子，這個案子比較小，臺大金山分院的案子雖然小，但是對地方很重要，先謝謝臺大金山分院長期以來對北海岸鄉親在健康方面的照顧，也因為他們付出很多，大家的評價也非常高。臺大金山分院有一個擴建計畫，他們要新建一棟長照暨醫療綜合大樓，也經過行政院的核定了，只是院長也知道，因為物價波動，有時候發包沒那麼容易，所以招標不出去。目前臺大醫院非常幫忙，教育部也幫忙，他們可能先流用一下建設經費跟設備經費，把設備經費先流用到建設經費上面來，但是後面還是有一些資金的缺口，未來可能還是要提修正計畫，原本10億出頭的經費，大概只會多一億多，這個部分是不是院長這邊能夠幫忙一下、照顧一下北海岸鄉親，讓這個建設能夠早日完成？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，有關臺大金山分院，據我的了解，一直是一所相當有特色、專業經營的醫院，也深受地方人士依賴於健康上的維持。目前它的長照暨醫療綜合大樓新建工程原編預算總經費是13.12億，但經過兩次的流標，都沒有辦法順利招標出去，現在3月已經又繼續上網公告了，預計在4月截止，5月進行開標，我們當然希望這次開標能夠順利。"],["廖委員先翔：對啦，他們會很幫忙，先上網公告招標，但是經費的缺口還是在，後續還是會送修正計畫。"],["卓院長榮泰：因為現在是編13.12億嘛！"],["廖委員先翔：拜託院長，以後如果教育部送修正計畫上來的時候，再麻煩我們院長多多支持，好不好？讓工程能夠順利……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們希望它順利開標啦！"],["廖委員先翔：順利開標完之後，只要有缺口，我們行政院都會支持，我可以這樣理解嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：這是地方上的需求，看看它……"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝，這一點我們……"],["卓院長榮泰：談到錢的問題，我都不敢太快答應你。"],["廖委員先翔：不敢太快答應喔，一億多元而已！"],["卓院長榮泰：因為你們把中央、地方劃成這個樣子……"],["廖委員先翔：我今天跟你很理性的討論，院長，我們就不要扯那些，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是啊，我就是理性的討論。"],["廖委員先翔：我今天跟你還滿愉快的。"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊。"],["廖委員先翔：接下來我要討論白匏湖的事情，有關白匏湖的案子，年初審查總預算的時候我有刪除預算，院長多少可能也有注意到，一個民意代表刪了地方的預算，老實講我有沒有壓力？我當然有壓力啊！但是為了地方好，我相信我一定比院長、比內政部、比規劃的人都還了解汐止，我認為這樣的計畫有調整的空間。社宅在國外有非常多年的經驗，所以他們也會有一些指引，社宅挑選的地點非常重要，包括聯合國、OECD都有一些指引，希望與既有的社區，或是透過都市開發手段與鄰近的住宅區做結合，但是我們白匏湖的社宅是用造鎮的方式，當然在造鎮裡面你們可能還加上了一些運動設施或是社福設施等等的，但這畢竟還是獨樹一格的社會住宅，可能就會產生國外長期以來甚至過去發生的，因為孤立性導致標籤化的問題，這一點我們的規劃單位其實一直沒有詳盡的說明，包括還有其他問題，可能交通的問題，當初原本的規劃我記得不是1,000戶，後來修正到1,000戶，原本是2,000戶，也是因為交通問題所以規劃單位自己有去縮量，他們也知道這個問題，但是實際的交通影響評估也還沒有出來。其實這個部分的預算去年就編了，今年1月內政部自己內部的會議還在進行當中，很多的老師都有提出許多的意見，我認為整個過程還沒經過完善的討論，可能非常匆忙地就上路，所以我有提案把這個預算刪除，也在這邊先跟院長、部長做一個討論。請問這個案子的後續規劃，你們目前還是要依照原訂規劃再編一次預算嗎？還是你們願意跟我或是地方再多一點的討論，討論白匏湖這塊地到底要怎麼使用才是最恰當的？我個人的意見部長應該比較清楚，我希望能夠引入一些來作為產業園區，因為產業園區的交通方向性不一樣，比較不會造成地方交通的問題，包括輝達可能在找地點，台積電也在拜託總統，他們都是需要大面積的土地，我覺得都可以去評估看看，不一定能成或這是最好的方案，但是我希望能夠多一些討論，不曉得目前院或部的立場是怎麼樣？"],["卓院長榮泰：首先，很遺憾社宅的預算被刪除，而且刪除的結果產生不合理的狀況，我們當然還是希望努力，努力讓社宅興建有它的實績，能夠興建完成，但是如果沒有辦法的話，內政部是要改變過去的計畫或是怎麼做，我們請部長來說明。"],["廖委員先翔：我先回答院長，社宅我個人非常支持，我一上任就幫忙找了很多地點，我相信國家住都中心也非常清楚，我推薦了多少地點給國家住都中心去設置，只是我對於地點的選擇跟內政部可能有一些不一樣的意見，我在這邊再補充說明一下。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明一下這裡為什麼適合。"],["劉部長世芳：我們在評估的時候，新北市政府已經同意我們的想法，希望在白匏湖這個地方設置社宅，而且做一個生態園區，但是很……"],["廖委員先翔：他們要生態園區啦！"],["劉部長世芳：但是很遺憾的就是總共被刪除了1億6,000萬，所以包括社宅的興建減列1,000戶，或是生態園區的工程現在完全停擺，這個預算到底未來能否通過我們都不知道。再來就是委員提到要變成運動園或運動產業中心，到目前為止我們還沒有看到新北市府是否同意這樣的方向。至於委員提到未來要讓台積電設廠等等，如果面積只有18.95公頃，希望台積電要來設廠，這個土地面積未免也太小了。所以我是覺得根本就是退回原來重新再考量，我覺得很可惜，原本新北市政府跟國土署已經講好要做社宅，而且是做個小造鎮，上次委員質詢的時候我們也把這個計畫跟委員報告過，委員雖然有不同的見解，但基本上我們原先是覺得會繼續往前走，但是沒有想到這一次預算審查時，預算全數被刪除……"],["廖委員先翔：見解不同是因為你們也沒有提出解疑惑的地方。"],["劉部長世芳：再加上1億6,000萬之外，還有一個300萬是被倒扣回來的，也就是說，預算全部被刪除之外，還有個300萬，我們還要付300萬的支出，所以我覺得這個計畫到目前為止大概是完全停擺了。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，你們還有沒有對未來的土地利用做相關的討論？會不會把地方的民意，包括我本人的意見，大家一起集思廣益，一起把這塊土地做最完善的利用？包括社宅，我當初也表明立場，除了社宅，你的社福設施，就是長照或運動等等的，這些我都支持，但是我就是認為社宅的擇點應該要在大眾運輸旁邊，包括在汐止火車站旁邊，我都建議你們應該要去做一些規劃，我想目標方向都是一樣的。對於未來的規劃，我想確認一下，你們還會不會去做後續的討論？會不會有機會做一個重新的規劃？"],["劉部長世芳：報告委員，如果我們所有的預算都被刪減掉的話，我覺得我們現在先不要輕舉妄動，就是說如果沒有預算，我們怎麼再重新規劃或者重新評估呢？"],["廖委員先翔：你今年沒有預算嘛，你當初的規劃是幾年前就開始規劃的，那時候有預算嗎？對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：幾年前開始規劃是幾百萬，跟我向委員報告的部分是……"],["廖委員先翔：所以現在開始規劃、重新討論，討論出一個大家都支持的方向，然後之後再依序來規劃，所有的公共工程建設本來就是這樣子，哪一個案子是一開始規劃就有錢？"],["劉部長世芳：那可能會拖比較長一點的時間，也請委員多多支持。"],["廖委員先翔：所以你們還是堅持白匏湖就是按照原定的計畫在推動嗎？"],["劉部長世芳：我相信中間的新北市政府，他們在評估規劃的時候，跟我們國土署有專業的考量跟參考。"],["廖委員先翔：新北市政府就是要那個生態園區而已啦！好，沒關係，我在這邊跟……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我看今天我們能夠這樣很理性的討論公共政策很好，是不是我們原編的計畫能夠請內政部跟委員再做溝通說明，需要加強什麼樣的功能在裡面或是做怎麼樣的調整，最好是讓這個社宅的計畫能夠在這裡落實下去，至於周遭的一些如果可以微調的話，我們來跟委員商量，對地方有利的……"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係……"],["卓院長榮泰：對未來發展好的……"],["廖委員先翔：院長承諾了，我就相信您，後續就拜託內政部多多的和我們這邊再做接洽……"],["劉部長世芳：希望可以給我們……"],["廖委員先翔：好不好？大家互相溝通一下，我不想在這邊有任何吵架，地方的事情一吵架就沒有共識了，這也不是我願意的，好不好？謝謝。先謝謝院長，也謝謝部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝。接下來我想討論一下台積電的問題，這個問題就可能會比較刺激一點。先跟院長確認一下，美國總統川普就任之後，對於對美國貿易逆差大的國家提出了很多提高關稅課徵的作法，這樣子的作法您認同嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：任何一個國家平衡自己的貿易，都應該是它對外經貿政策其中很重要的一部分，這也是雙方平等互惠、互相幫忙、互相成長、互相發展……"],["廖委員先翔：平等互惠我支持，比如你汽車課我多少，我課你多少，這個大家都一樣，但不能夠因為貿易逆差，關稅是一回事，貿易逆差是一回事，貿易順差還是逆差，這是大家的本事，你怎麼可以用關稅的手段來要求別人，一定要什麼我賺你錢就要還你錢這樣的道理，我個人是非常不支持。院長，你要幫美國講話……"],["卓院長榮泰：我不是幫美國，我是說每個國家都會把這些當作重要的問題，要如何去平衡貿易有很多的路徑跟手段，方法很多，大家選擇各種不同的方式。"],["廖委員先翔：因為美國先前也對墨西哥跟加拿大有一些措施，你們都有看到新聞，包括提高關稅，你來我往什麼的，那我們內部有沒有討論過，假設美國也對我們中華民國，對我們臺灣提出一些不合理的關稅加成，我們要怎麼因應？有沒有討論過、模擬過、沙盤推演？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以美國對外的一些關係也引起不同國家不同的反應，有的比較激烈，但是至少現在對我們來講，我們還在很合理、平穩的狀態下，雙方進行必要的溝通……"],["廖委員先翔：所以你們會不會……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們當然有一些想法，但是……"],["廖委員先翔：有沒有沙盤推演？"],["卓院長榮泰：但是現在我們沒有遇到困難，外交的問題不需要拿來這裡，好像是先下手為強或是先大聲，我們已經有我們的因應方式。"],["廖委員先翔：好。所以你能夠保證，如果美國對我們中華民國，對我們臺灣有不合理的關稅措施的話，我們一定會有反擊措施？我可以這樣理解嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：第一個，我們會極力爭取，避免不公平的關稅；第二，在對等關稅當中，一定要雙方基於平等互惠。"],["廖委員先翔：爭取？爭取是一種我可以講，你聽不聽是一回事，但是我可以做什麼是我可以自己決定的。"],["卓院長榮泰：現在還沒有發生，請部長來說明，現在沒有發生這樣的狀況。"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，你們有沙盤推演，你們有腹案，你們能夠保護國內的產業，不要美國說抬高關稅，然後我們什麼事情都沒辦法做，那就可以了。好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。當然，我們要維持我們的領先，而且我們要避免，且我們絕對要阻止我們的產業空洞化、被懷疑，另外就是不公平的關稅，我們會極力的避免，再來就是……"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，你們有腹案，我們不一定要在這邊講，否則講出來就好像在對美國嗆聲，我也不是這樣的意思，好不好？但是你們至少要有腹案。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，謝謝委員。"],["廖委員先翔：接下來回到晶片關稅本身，川普之前說要對臺灣晶片課徵100%的關稅，院長了解這100%的關稅是怎麼課的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個100%的關稅只是他們放出來的一種說法，但是到目前為止，我們並沒有收到這樣一個……"],["廖委員先翔：我們有去了解嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然有去了解。"],["廖委員先翔：那他的100%的關稅是怎麼課法？"],["郭部長智輝：100%的關稅怎麼課法？"],["廖委員先翔：我問的是晶片，它並不是一個終端銷售的產品，對不對？晶片一定是跟人家組裝變成一個CPU……"],["郭部長智輝：我們到目前為止都一直在蒐集市場上面的訊息，然後我們跟對方他們有在溝通，到底你這個100%是要怎麼課稅？"],["廖委員先翔：對，我就想確定……"],["郭部長智輝：是終端產品？還是在那個……"],["廖委員先翔：所以我們到現在……"],["郭部長智輝：還是用每一個element去細算，這個大家都還在溝通。"],["廖委員先翔：對，部長講的就是我要問的，所以我們政府到目前為止還沒有理解川普政府所說的，100%的關稅到底是課晶片本身？還是後續加工的產品？或是終端的手機產品？到目前為止，我們還沒有任何的訊息說他要怎麼課？"],["郭部長智輝：我們不是沒有任何的訊息，我們只是……"],["廖委員先翔：也問不到？"],["郭部長智輝：我們各種的simulation都有，我們有各種評估，不會說只有單一的，像委員你所說的這樣子，我們都沒有，我們有做很多評估，A案、B案、C案、D案……"],["廖委員先翔：所以每一種你都評估過了？"],["郭部長智輝：都評估過。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝。臺灣的台積電的產品單就晶片本身出口到美國的比例，我看新聞報導上面寫的大概是不到5%，所以單就晶片來課稅的話，老實說，對於台積電根本沒有任何的影響，影響微乎其微，如果是對終端的產品來課稅的話，那就會有影響，但是國際上好像從來沒有針對終端產品中的某一項元件去課稅，都是對終端產品的物件去課稅，所以我才會疑惑美國政府到底要對晶片怎麼去課法。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想你這個質詢是非常正確，但是美國到目前為止也沒有說他要怎麼課，只是說他要課100%，所以對我們來講，我們必須去模擬各種不同的情境，然後提出我們因應的方法。"],["廖委員先翔：所以台積電可能也不知道，但是他就決定去美國投資，說真的，其實大家都很不理解台積電為什麼要去美國投資，如果說單對晶片來課稅的話，就誠如剛剛講的不到5%，影響微乎其微，那我不曉得台積電有沒有被美國威脅過，台積電不是一個整合上、下、中游產業的一家企業，半導體製程是非常複雜的，每一個人都專心在每一個人負責的項目，如果台積電上游的原料被斷掉的話，台積電沒有辦法運作，就像現在美國要用EUV去牽制大陸半導體產業的發展，有沒有聽說過美國曾經想要用控制原物料元件的方法，比如說晶圓、矽晶圓或者是光阻劑等等可能在日本獨占市場的一些原料來牽制台積電？有沒有聽說過？"],["卓院長榮泰：聽委員的質詢，你應該是對這個產業有相當的了解，不過，我們也應該有信心，台積電是一個世界性的大公司，它到世界全球做布局，它不僅要了解經濟的發展趨勢，甚至整個國際政經情勢、軍事發展、國防都要了解，我們任何一個人都不可能以自己的想法來超越整個台積電的評估。"],["廖委員先翔：但是因為台積電在1月法說會過後就很明確的講不會去美國，去美國是門都沒有！但是兩個月的時間，不曉得世界發生了什麼變化，讓它突然改變了心意。"],["卓院長榮泰：世界的變化是滿快的。"],["廖委員先翔：所以我才會懷疑台積電有沒有受到一些不公平的對待。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想半導體您這麼熟悉是相當不簡單，但是我要跟您報告的是，像台積電這麼優秀的一個公司，我想它對海外的進出一定有他們所有的考慮，他們的考慮不會這麼倉促，也不會說這麼高的投資金額下，可以一個人去做決定，所以以我們對國際企業了解的程度，它只有兩個目的會到海外去做，第一個思考的就是當地的市場，有沒有這個市場的需求；第二個考慮的是有沒有當地的資源。"],["廖委員先翔：沒關係，他的說法我大概知道啦，台積電的部分反正沒有人證實，我們也沒辦法揣測，我只能亂猜一通。回到我們國內，台積電到美國投資1,000億這件事情，有沒有影響到輝達在臺灣設立研發中心這件事情？這件事情有沒有受到相關的一些擱置？或是繼續的推動？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個你也是內行，我可以跟你報告，台積電的RD工程師大概分成三種，第一種叫research；第二種叫develop；第三個叫做manufacture，也就是improve其良率的工程師，台積電這三種工程師、三種研發工程師加起來有1萬4,000位，這個就是凝聚台積電……"],["廖委員先翔：抱歉、抱歉，我快沒時間了。我想問一下，輝達在臺灣設立研發中心這件事情有沒有因此擱置？回答有或沒有就好了？"],["郭部長智輝：這兩個沒有正相關。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有，所以輝達還是繼續在找地，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：輝達一定會在臺灣。"],["廖委員先翔：我們會再繼續輔導嗎？我確定這點就好。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，台積電在臺灣既有的投資計畫不會改變。"],["廖委員先翔：好。"],["卓院長榮泰：其他主要的大廠在臺灣現在既有的投資計畫也會持續進行。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係。最後一個問題，我們有沒有評估過，假設台積電這1,000億美金改投資在臺灣，那這1,000億美金的投資，可以為我們國內包括建廠、土建工程，即從建廠開始的就業機會到生產晶片所產生的就業機會、所創造的GDP或是我們每年的稅收，包括我們上、中、下游產業的一些就業人員或對GDP的影響跟對稅收的影響，我們有沒有評估過了？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，台積電在臺灣有11個廠，現在要開始做。它去美國只是……"],["廖委員先翔：對，沒關係。我就單純討論這1,000億，如果留在臺灣，它可以創造我們多少的就業機會、我們的經濟價值、我們的GDP、我們的稅收，這一點有沒有評估過了？"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我覺得這不是取代性的問題，說它在美國投資了1,000億，則臺灣的投資會改變，這對台積電來講，我當然不能替它發言，但是我在觀察，對台積電來講這1,000億……"],["廖委員先翔：希望我們政府能夠做詳細的評估……"],["卓院長榮泰：這個1,000億是如虎添翼的1,000億……"],["廖委員先翔：就像當初的服貿，大家會希望了解對國內經濟的衝擊。"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["廖委員先翔：一樣的，如果我們的政府能將這1,000億留在臺灣，這就是我們臺灣的啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：它並不是取代性，跟委員講，這個是如虎添翼的1,000億……"],["廖委員先翔：希望我們能夠做詳細的評估，好不好？謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員的質詢，也謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第38號張雅琳委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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我們請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":22.506,"end":41.91,"text":"林委員好 院長好我們0121的地震在第一時間其實我們就已經要求要比照0403花蓮地震災害的重建的標準來處理那現在也已經都開始"},{"start":42.45,"end":60.842,"text":"已經進入到在核發所有的一些補助款的部分紅單黃單但是確實速度有一點緩慢因為我們必須要經由土木技師結構技師建築施工會然後去做一些負評的動作那當然"},{"start":62.364,"end":74.737,"text":"現在還有一個問題其實從過去到現在都存在的我想今天剛好要拿出來跟我們院長還有我們內政部來討論一下就是說我們紅單跟黃單"},{"start":77.8,"end":103.649,"text":"我們一般的建物現在的這個復平之後都沒有問題金融土木技師、結構技師跟建築師他們復平之後能夠依照他們給予的建議來做一些補助或是指引我們這間房子的一個重建方向那現在問題來了我讓我們的院長看一下其實"},{"start":105.325,"end":132.643,"text":"在這些圖片當中這是紅單你看在外面貼了一個紅單這個是牆面嚴重裂開這是紅單喔再來我們看黃單地基結構下陷然後還有屋頂磚瓦破裂漏水還有我們的樑柱受損甚至是輕鋼架受損這些都是黃單那麼院長"},{"start":134.461,"end":158.582,"text":"這是我們的廟宇我們的廟宇可是我們的廟宇如同一般的建物被貼了紅單跟黃單但是他們拿不到補助因為他們被認為是民宅所以沒有辦法拿到補助可是這是不公平的因為他們基本上也是建物"},{"start":160.25,"end":178.612,"text":"可是又因為他們當成廟宇所以他們沒有辦法得到補助連一點點都拿不到從過去其實都存在這個問題我覺得對這些廟宇其實是不公平的因為現在是"},{"start":180.655,"end":207.17,"text":"心情堅強 她也是用她的頭部這樣一步一步的站起來就因為她是胡適的心靈所以她不能拿到寶座所以院長 我覺得這是極度不公平而且這一次 你知道在台南我們說真的就是眾神之都而且在我們這一次南西獄警"},{"start":208.427,"end":215.375,"text":"大內在這麼多東山這些地方在山區其實廟宇非常的多所以現在大家挨挨叫明明他們已經被貼了紅單跟黃單"},{"start":225.168,"end":252.051,"text":"沒有貼的我們不說就憑著已經被我們相關土木機師、結構機師貼了紅單跟黃單就憑這樣他們也拿不到主院長我們是不是應該要思考一下他也是建物啦他只是生命的大單位他家裡人有可能比我們平常人還要多"},{"start":254.591,"end":275.758,"text":"所以這個部分該怎麼辦謝謝陳委員當初地震之後0121之後委員跟著很多委員跟著我我們跑了好多地方大家很清楚的了解地方的狀況那為什麼這個整個核定的時間會比較慢因為紅單照我手上的資料現在500多件"},{"start":276.978,"end":305.501,"text":"黃丹也一千六百多件其實院長關鍵在哪裡你知道因為在零一二一之後餘震又特別多所以我們是做了第二次第一次完我們又做第二次我們為了慎重起見慎重起見也進行了很詳細的負評也謝謝三大工會三大工會一而再的那工程會我一直要求他一定要核實那至於說我們這個是針對受災住宅的一個補貼啦"},{"start":306.281,"end":324.793,"text":"所以剛剛委員所說的才會有那種狀況那現在整個執行開始執行以及過程當中怎麼樣去面對剛剛委員所說的這樣的狀況是不是請劉部長來說明一下謝謝陳委員對於廟宇的關心原來我們在零一二一的這個地震的時候所做的不管是重建 修繕"},{"start":325.453,"end":346.24,"text":"都是針對有住人的住宅的補貼或是修繕等等這些我想委員非常清楚那如果是跟公共建築有關包括學校農會的話他各有原來的目的事業主管機關來幫忙那有關廟宇的部分第一個他有沒有登記有案或者是說他原來在建的時候那裡面沒有住人那我想我是不是請我們自己的總理司"},{"start":347.581,"end":373.343,"text":"來跟委員這邊聯繫一下如果有廟宇的需要有修建的補助的話我們來看看用什麼樣的檢討方式可以來協助他們但是我們首要的部分是在於地震之後對於有住人的部分不要有危險產生那現在委員所提示出來不管他是紅單還是黃單還是急需要協助的話我們來看看有什麼方案可以比照基本上這裡面都會有住人"},{"start":374.366,"end":395.542,"text":"它並不是其實在山區的廟宇他們都會有住持或是會有在地方負責的人因為它在山區那如果是有合格的建物的話呢我們會按照合格建物或是住宅的修繕補貼的方向來處理那是不是我們再盤點一下看看用什麼樣的方式呢可以解決災民的困擾"},{"start":397.924,"end":420.171,"text":"陳書偉說明報告委員 1月21號的地震台南市政府在2月6號就已經有公告那公告的部分就是說紅單黃單裡面如果涉及到要重建要拆除的那麼他就補助呢按照台南市的相關的自治條例類似徵收自治條例"},{"start":421.531,"end":438.168,"text":"祭司去評了多少百分之百就補助那修善跟補強呢也是百分之百就是完全由祭司那麼去去負評是因為我們有0206的這個善款所以這個部分沒有問題那其中只有一副呢結構比較問題"},{"start":439.81,"end":466.944,"text":"要做補強而且不用拆除這部分內政部也答應這一戶的部分內政部會來協助那至於剛才委員所講的廟宇我想因為我們是善款給這個非公共設施道路學校這個主管機關那廟宇的部分我想如果是主管機關是內政的話那我想內政部會針對廟宇的部分那比照"},{"start":467.884,"end":476.524,"text":"台南市政府的公告內容給予協助因為廟宇比較不一樣因為出入的人其實非常多"},{"start":477.608,"end":504.79,"text":"他可能危險性會比一般如果你沒有給他一些協助他只是期待就是說為什麼一般我們的所謂房屋的紅單黃單有所謂的補助可是為什麼在廟宇當中就沒有那我覺得說剛剛部長所說的很清楚了那我們會請民政局因為現在民政局他有報了一個計畫上來可是我覺得那個計畫可能對你們來講很難"},{"start":507.452,"end":532.925,"text":"能夠容納所以我覺得要重新盤點之後把一些實質能夠去協助幫助的否則當時候其實我們從過去很多地震所造成廟宇的損害只要不是古蹟他就沒有辦法得到補助那現在這一次會比較嚴重是因為剛好在山區山區我們在很多的廟宇都在山區"},{"start":534.389,"end":543.589,"text":"所以這一次在整個地震之後廟宇的受害非常嚴重所以你才會看到有這麼多的紅單黃單而且實質他們有去看"},{"start":545.137,"end":571.238,"text":"這些紅灘黃灘表示這些結構技師、土木技師、建築師都去看了確實有立即危險可是沒有辦法處理我覺得我們應該站在協助的立場看怎麼在這個部分用專案來幫忙可能這個對於未來我們的這些公共安全會更有幫助所以這個部分再拜託院長、拜託部長還有拜託我們的主委大家共同努力"},{"start":571.598,"end":596.943,"text":"好 再一次謝謝那這個部分我會請民政局再重新做一個盤點出來謝謝你請劉部長進一步去了解謝謝那院長我想這是非常嚴肅的問題這個馬上會遇到是因為今年今年的冷氣團特別不一樣到現在三月份還有冷氣團聽說還有一波冷氣團是"},{"start":600.054,"end":617.954,"text":"是因為這個樣子 所以大家感受不到可是我們很擔心 這種天氣變化它的一個急速性 急冷 急熱所以當如果到五月 六月 急熱的時候現在大家開始在吵 電價怎麼辦"},{"start":620.219,"end":638.628,"text":"我們當時候其實在112年我們也因為要穩定電價因為現在國際燃料的價格是非常恐怖的在整個國際間其實是居高不下的所以在這個狀態之下我們一直在112年我們又增資1500億以後特別預算撥補500億"},{"start":645.831,"end":666.196,"text":"用這樣的方式然後在113年我們原本預估我們要追加預算1000億但是已經出委員會了因為我在經濟委員會我非常清楚出委員會囉現在代協商再來今年的根本不用說啦就直接被砍掉"},{"start":667.827,"end":693.728,"text":"院長我很擔心原來我們希望藉著這個撥補因為這不應該是轉嫁在人民的身上我們用撥補來抑制這個電價這樣的一個所謂難以控制的一個方向但是我們現在從去年到今年我們的撥補都已經包括追加預算撥補都被刪掉甚至還在協商這怎麼辦"},{"start":695.999,"end":724.518,"text":"這個電價怎麼辦大家開始擔心了謝謝委員一直支持中央政府總預算的內容也一直關心台電我在這裡也代表台電28000名同仁向委員表示感謝我們對於電價的考慮一直是從反應成本照顧民生穩定物價節能減碳以及使用者付費這樣的原則來看那其中會看到照顧民生穩定物價是其中兩個相當重要"},{"start":725.459,"end":746.58,"text":"我們當然不是我們來決定電價是電價審議委員會但是我想院也好部也好跟台電都會用這樣的原則來做內部充分的討論我們絕對不希望造成民生物價的大幅的波動或是內心的一種驚慌所以我也請郭部長好好的審把這個"},{"start":748.112,"end":758.813,"text":"狀況收集條件收集分析好之後有期有時間到了需要提供給電影家生意委員會的時候國保黨自然會用這樣的原則去做溝通我希望能夠平穩大家的心情"},{"start":759.192,"end":781.932,"text":"院長這個很重要因為我們現在開始在下鄉我們在討論這個總預算的問題跟大家知道我們未來我們國家的方向可能我會被總預算去卡到可是我想這就是最現實的從去年的追加沒有"},{"start":782.822,"end":788.755,"text":"出我們的大院然後到我們的撥補又被刪掉這個東西"},{"start":792.512,"end":812.634,"text":"這兩千億的問題怎麼辦 怎麼辦所以現在大家都在問 啊 委員啊 啊我們五月份六月份 啊我們的電價要怎麼樣大家很擔心 就像剛剛院長所說的 我們不能讓大家恐慌因為我們的電價會影響到物價"},{"start":813.955,"end":840.19,"text":"這個一上去就回不來了所以為什麼我們一直希望說我們台電的撥補很重要因為在國際的燃料整個的價格不是我們控制的我們不能因為這樣影響到我們的電價甚至在影響到我們的物價所以我們在每次經濟委員會在審議的時候甚至在質詢的時候我都支持一定要撥補"},{"start":841.904,"end":858.954,"text":"郭部長他也要考慮到台電的財政健全跟結構我們會先從財務面來協助台電能夠穩定然後再從其他的應該要努力的從創電到售電來分離我想我們希望在撥補的部分能夠"},{"start":867.739,"end":876.145,"text":"彌補過去因為照顧民生而產生的這些債務所以我們希望這個撥補還是要請求大院能夠給我們這些輔助因為院長其實在過去我想在經濟委員會很清楚我們1000億你們也只刪了30億但是現在送到大院來"},{"start":892.057,"end":914.282,"text":"可能這個地方被整個刪除我們覺得是希望能夠再繼續溝通然後希望這個大院能夠同意再給我們補助我們在審這個預算的時候你也在現場我們光為了這個我們論述了多久啊結果我們那麼認真在經濟委員會審然後在大院大筆一揮就把我們刪掉那請問我們經濟委員審幹嘛"},{"start":916.807,"end":926.018,"text":"這個是民生問題耶不是政治問題所以我們真的拜託要好好審視這個部分因為沒有撥補我們很怕"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":2,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（14時30分）謝謝院長，請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：院長好。針對0121地震，其實我們在第一時間就已經要求比照0403花蓮地震災害的重建標準來處理，現在也都已經開始進入到核發一些補助款的部分，即紅單、黃單，但是確實速度有一點緩慢，因為必須要經由土木技師、結構技師、建築師公會去做一些複評的動作。當然現在還有一個問題，其實從過去到現在都存在的，今天剛好拿出來跟院長及內政部討論一下，就是紅單跟黃單的一般建物現在在複評之後都沒有問題，經由土木技師、結構技師跟建築師複評之後，依照他們給予的建議來做一些補助或是指引這間房子的重建方向。","但現在問題來了，我讓院長看一下，其實在這些圖片當中，這是紅單的建物，你看在外面貼了一個紅單，這個是牆面嚴重裂開，這是紅單喔！再來看黃單，地基結構下陷及屋頂磚瓦破裂漏水，還有樑柱受損，甚至是輕鋼架受損，這些都是黃單。院長，這是廟宇，廟宇如同一般的建物被貼了紅單跟黃單，但是他們拿不到補助，因為他們不被認為是民宅，所以沒有辦法拿到補助，可是這是不公平的，因為他們基本上也是建物，但是又因為他們被當成廟宇，所以他們沒有辦法得到補助，連一丁點都拿不到。","從過去到現在其實都存在這個問題，我覺得對這些廟宇是不公平的，因為他們也是申請建照，他們也是用他們的土木這樣一步一步蓋起來，就因為他們是供奉神明，所以他們不能拿到補助。院長，我覺得這是極度不公平，而且這一次在臺南，說真的我們就是眾神之都，而且這一次的楠西、玉井、大內、東山這些地方多在山區，其實廟宇非常的多，所以現在大家唉唉叫，明明他們已經被貼了紅單跟黃單，沒有貼的我們不說，就憑著已經被相關土木技師、結構技師貼了紅單跟黃單，他們也拿不到補助。院長，我們是不是應該要思考一下？他們也是建物啊！他們只是神明在住，但是他們出入的人有可能比我們平常的還要多，所以這個部分該怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝陳委員，當初0121地震之後，委員及很多委員跟著我跑了好多地方，大家很清楚地了解地方的狀況，為什麼整個核定的時間會比較慢？因為紅單在我手上的資料現在有五百多件，黃單也一千六百多件，我們經過……"],["陳委員亭妃：院長，其實關鍵在哪裡？因為在0121之後餘震又特別多，所以我們為了慎重起見做了第二次，第一次完之後我們又做了第二次。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，慎重起見，也進行很詳細的複評，也謝謝三大公會一而再地協助，我也一直要求工程會一定要核實。至於這個則是針對受災住宅的一個補貼，所以才會有剛剛委員所說的那種狀況，現在整個開始執行，以及過程當中要怎麼樣去面對剛剛委員所說的狀況，請劉部長來說明一下。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝陳委員對於廟宇的關心，原來我們在0121地震的時候所做的，不管是重建、修繕，都是針對有住人的住宅補貼或者修繕等等，我想委員非常清楚，如果是跟公共建築物有關的，包括學校、農會的話，它各有原來的目的事業主管機關來幫忙。有關廟宇的部分，第一個，它有沒有登記在案，或者是它原來在建的時候裡面沒有住人，我想是不是請我們宗禮司來跟委員這邊聯繫一下？如果有廟宇需要修建補助的話，我們看看用什麼樣的檢討方式可以來協助他們。但是我們首要的部分是在於地震之後對於有住人的部分，不要有危險產生。現在委員所提示出來的，不管它是紅單還是黃單，還是急需要協助的話，我們來看看有什麼樣的方案可以比照。"],["陳委員亭妃：基本上這裡面都會有住人，它並不是在山區的廟宇，他們都會有住持，或是會有在地方負責的人，因為它在山區。"],["劉部長世芳：它如果是合格建物的話，我們會按照合格建物或是住宅修繕補貼的方向來處理，是不是我們再盤點一下，看看用什麼樣的方式可以解決災民的困擾？"],["陳委員亭妃：拜託……"],["卓院長榮泰：請陳主委說明。"],["陳主任委員金德：報告委員，1月21號的地震臺南市政府在2月6號就已經有公告，就是紅單、黃單裡面如果涉及到要重建、要拆除的，補助的部分，按照臺南市相關的自治條例，類似徵收自治條例，技師評了多少就百分之百補助；修繕跟補強也是百分之百，就是完全由技師去複評……"],["陳委員亭妃：是，因為我們有0206的善款，所以這個部分沒有問題。"],["陳主任委員金德：對，它已經有公告了，若其中只有一戶結構比較有問題要做補強，而且不用拆除，這部分內政部也答應這一戶會提供協助。至於剛才委員所講的廟宇，因為我們善款是給非公共設施，像道路、學校，這個有主管機關。廟宇的部分，如果主管機關是內政部的話，我想內政部會針對廟宇的部分，比照臺南市政府的公告內容給予協助，這個不會有問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為廟宇比較不一樣，它出入的人其實非常多，可能危險性會比一般的高，如果你沒有給它一些協助，它只是期待，為什麼一般房屋的紅單、黃單有所謂的補助，可是為什麼在廟宇就沒有？我覺得剛剛部長說得很清楚了，我們會請民政局協助，因為現在民政局有報了一個計畫上來，可是我覺得那個計畫對你們來講可能很難能夠容納，所以我覺得要重新盤點之後，把一些實質能夠協助、幫助的列出來，否則其實我們從過去很多地震對廟宇所造成的損害來看，只要不是古蹟，它就沒有辦法得到補助。","現在這一次比較嚴重是因為剛好在山區，我們很多的廟宇都在山區，所以這一次地震之後廟宇受到的損害非常嚴重，你才會看到有這麼多的紅單、黃單，而且他們實質有去看喔！這些紅單、黃單表示這些結構技師、土木技師、建築師都去看了，確實有立即危險，可是沒有辦法處理。我覺得我們應該站在協助的立場，看怎麼在這個部分用專案來幫忙，可能這個對於未來我們這些公共安全會更有幫助，所以這個部分再拜託院長、部長還有主委，大家共同努力，再一次謝謝！這個部分我會請民政局再重新做一個盤點出來，謝謝！"],["卓院長榮泰：好，也請劉部長進一步去了解，謝謝。"],["劉部長世芳：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員亭妃：謝謝。院長，接著這是非常嚴肅的問題，馬上會遇到，今年的冷氣團特別不一樣，到現在3月份還有冷氣團，聽說還有一波冷氣團……"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：也因為這個樣子，所以大家感受不到，可是我們很擔心，這種天氣變化的急速性，急冷、急熱，如果5月、6月急熱的時候，大家開始在吵電價怎麼辦？當時在112年，我們要穩定電價，因為現在國際燃料的價格是非常恐怖的，在國際間其實是居高不下的，在這個狀態之下，112年我們又增資1,500億，疫後特別預算撥補500億，用這樣的方式；然後在113年，我們原本預估要追加預算1,000億，已經出委員會了，因為我在經濟委員會所以非常清楚，出委員會了，現在待協商；再來，今年的更不用說了，直接被砍掉。","院長，我很擔心，原來我們希望藉著這個撥補，因為這個不應該是轉嫁在人民的身上，我們用撥補來抑制電價所謂難以控制的方向，但是從去年到今年，包括我們的追加預算、撥補都被刪掉，甚至還在協商，這怎麼辦？電價怎麼辦？大家開始擔心耶！"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員一直支持中央政府總預算的內容，也一直關心台電，我在這裡也代表台電2萬8,000名同仁向委員表示感謝。我們對於電價的考慮，一直是從反映成本、照顧民生、穩定物價、節能減碳以及使用者付費這樣的原則來看，並且照顧民生、穩定物價是其中兩個相當重要的部分。當然不是我們來決定電價，是電價審議委員會，但是院也好，部也好，跟台電都會用這樣的原則來做內部充分的討論，我們絕對不希望造成民生物價大幅的波動，或是民眾內心的驚慌。所以我會請郭部長好好的把這個狀況、條件蒐集、分析好之後，時間到了，需要提供給電價審議委員會的時候，郭部長自然會用這樣的原則去溝通。總之，我希望能夠平穩大家的心情。"],["陳委員亭妃：院長，這個很重要，因為我們現在開始下鄉討論總預算的問題，要讓大家知道未來我們國家的方向，可能我會被總預算卡到，可是這就是最現實的，從去年的追加沒有出大院，到我們的撥補又被刪掉，這兩千億的問題怎麼辦？怎麼辦？所以現在大家都在問：委員，5月份、6月份我們的電價要怎麼辦？大家很擔心。就像剛剛院長所說的，我們不能讓大家恐慌，因為我們的電價會影響到物價，這個一上去就回不來了，所以為什麼我們一直說我們對台電的撥補很重要，因為國際燃料價格不是我們能控制的，不能因為漲價影響到我們的電價，甚至再影響到我們的物價，所以在每一次經濟委員會審議的時候，甚至在質詢的時候，我都支持一定要撥補。"],["卓院長榮泰：是，郭部長也要考慮到台電的財政健全跟結構。"],["郭部長智輝：我們會先從財務面來協助台電能夠穩定，然後再從其他應該要努力的部分，從創電到售電分離，並且我們希望在撥補的部分，能夠彌補過去因為照顧民生而產生的這些債務，所以我們希望撥補的部分還是要請求大院能夠給我們這些輔助。我想委員在經濟委員會也很清楚，過去我們的1,000億，你們也只刪了30億，但是現在送到大院來，可能這個地方被整個刪除，我們希望能夠再繼續溝通，然後希望大院能夠同意再給我們補助。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我們在審這個預算的時候，你也在現場，光是為了這個，我們論述了多久啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：結果我們那麼認真在經濟委員會審，然後在大院大筆一揮就把它刪掉，請問我們經濟委員會審幹嘛？這個是民生問題，不是政治問題，所以我們真的拜託要好好審視這個部分，因為沒有撥補，我們很怕會轉嫁在人民身上。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，這個部分再拜託，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：我們請大院……"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們還會再繼續努力。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員質詢。謝謝卓院長、各部會首長，謝謝。","接下來請廖先翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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如果沒有減碳的這個方法學的時候農民怎麼利用減碳去得到就是說除了種植農作物以外的這樣子就是說國際在追求減碳的這個過程當中他們額外的收入那我們知道說目前農民的數量減少但是有青農的加入我們希望青農在加入以後"},{"start":243.212,"end":256.731,"text":"可以藉由這種對於農業新興的獲利的方式來協助他們除了在耕種以外能夠藉由碳費能夠得到一筆收入這是我們希望能夠帶來未來"},{"start":258.893,"end":277.432,"text":"農業可以永續發展以及結合現在企業要投入永續農業以及ESG相關的作為的時候如果環境部你們的方法學沒有提出的話你們沒有加速審理的話你們都還在這裡局部不前的話那這樣子未來我們農業怎麼發展是不是"},{"start":279.634,"end":298.895,"text":"包委員這個是我們非常重視的但是因為我們台灣過去對於農業的方法學是比較陌生的但是現在有在加快但是我也跟委員報告因為我們目前的碳費的價格是只有300塊那其實在這個市場上如果農民來做這個東西其實現在的價值性不高"},{"start":299.375,"end":324.593,"text":"那我們未來其實更重要的一環是要推動總量管制的排放交易如果明年下半年我們可以上路的話農民的誘因因為我們台灣的土地相對的農民的土地都比較小所以他要做整個碳匯的價值 額外的收入的話其實是成本跟收入不成比例的所以未來我們也會擴大跟農民的再溝通希望能夠來幫助農民在減碳的部分能夠獲得不一樣的收益"},{"start":325.146,"end":338.805,"text":"我在這邊跟委員補充就是個別農戶因為他土地面積小就算他得到的碳費本身的減碳的價值是非常低的所以我們已經同步針對這個個體小農去做集結變成集團栽培的經營組去做處理的話"},{"start":341.969,"end":368.488,"text":"那樣子他比較得到比較大的量可以跟ESG做結合在第一個部分第二個部分就是委員所關切的其實在彰化有很多葡萄農這些枝條的部分那現在我們農業部也推動了剩餘資源的循環在利用特別是將這些枝條剪下來以後經過粉碎以後變成生殖燃料的生殖燃料棒那這個生殖燃料棒的部分也可以當作一個能源的一個替代"},{"start":369.804,"end":377.072,"text":"那我還想要請,謝謝彭部長,我想要請衛福部的邱部長。麻煩請衛福部備詢。"},{"start":380.875,"end":404.874,"text":"農業部我們陳部長請等一下我想請問一下就是對於紐西蘭的牛乳進口這個部分其實糯農還是很希望說我們可以維持就是說就是在鮮乳的部分我們希望紐西蘭進口的鮮乳能夠不要加上長效鮮乳這個部分以長效乳來鑄成那"},{"start":409.117,"end":437.215,"text":"為什麼衛福部都沒有辦法我是不是可以說明一下現在我們跟衛福部其實針對這個議題討論的非常多那最新的一個共識而且也經過諾能的座談裡面討論的就是未來只要是有鮮乳標章產銷履歷跟CAS的國產乳才能夠標鮮乳國產的鮮乳然後其他的部分包括進口的我們"},{"start":438.055,"end":455.917,"text":"修正了相關的經濟部的一個標準局的相關的規範未來的牛乳的話只能分為牛乳、羊乳不能再加先制因為先制本身是一個形容詞它很難去界定說它是幾天以下才叫做先所以未來只有國內生產的牛乳"},{"start":457.385,"end":476.122,"text":"國內生產的牛乳而且是要取得我們的證明標章鮮乳證明標章產銷履歷或是CS的那這三個標章是為了讓我們的國內的牛乳本身具有產品的差異化那透過這樣的產品差異化才能夠讓我們的國產牛乳在市面上比較有大的競爭力"},{"start":477.093,"end":491.87,"text":"那所以未來紐西蘭或其他國家進口的就不能夠加上鮮嗎?對,根據相關的規定就只能叫做牛奶所以就不會加上鮮乳,就是會排解我們目前就是國內弱農的疑慮是不是?"},{"start":492.791,"end":508.741,"text":"我希望說我們相關的作業能夠加速可以嗎因為今年度是因為就是紐西蘭的牛乳他生產並不多那進口的數量也不多那未來如果進口的數量多的話那恐怕會影響國內酪農的相關的生產"},{"start":510.862,"end":526.345,"text":"我跟你們提供一個數據,其實紐西蘭進口本身以去年來講是一萬三千多噸那一萬三千多噸裡面有將近一萬噸是薄酒爐的系統其實它紐西蘭本身它鮮乳的進口量只佔它整個進口量的百分之三十"},{"start":527.652,"end":543.104,"text":"好那那個邱部長再麻煩你把這個部分就是相關的法律能夠協助好不好好是的好謝謝那我再想要請問一下就是我們經濟部的郭部長農業部衛生部請回"},{"start":555.184,"end":578.934,"text":"我剛才那個陳部長他提到了就是農業的減肥其實我昨天排了一個到設計研究院也就是你經濟部所屬的這樣子一個財團法人那我們去看了就是裡面他已經有就是設計好的機台已經把果皮或者是果渣等等"},{"start":579.514,"end":593.594,"text":"它可以藉由這樣子一個轉變變成第一個可穿的布料或者是目前作為我們電動車車上的皮料"},{"start":596.678,"end":616.289,"text":"那以這樣子的一個研究以及讓我們的循環經濟能夠成為可實現的這樣子的一個方法,那我想要請問一下我們經濟部以及我們行政院是不是應該要大力的支持?"},{"start":617.287,"end":643.575,"text":"是的 我們經濟部是有支持我們有提供研發投資抵減 抵減率大概15%各個產業都可以來申請試用我想請問的是因為其實設計本身是一個產業目前產品的設計以及相關的這是不是也請我們財政部的"},{"start":645.553,"end":658.963,"text":"財政部貝雪報告委員 我想設計業者從事據一定創新程度的創作這些相關研發的支出也可以申請那麼在修訂設備投資抵檢的子辦法時亦會將設計業所需的AI軟硬體設備或者技術這個抵檢率有5%納入評估"},{"start":670.45,"end":685.111,"text":"我是說對於品牌的設計以及對於我們產品製程的相關設計尤其是對於像這樣子農費的再循環利用變成工業的產品的"},{"start":686.833,"end":706.378,"text":"相關製程的這樣子的一個研發設計那是不是我們不用透過修法以執法的修訂那就可以把他們納入就是企業的這個投資底檢的這個項目裡面那這樣子郭部長他是大力的支持那莊部長呢"},{"start":707.948,"end":721.146,"text":"我想在目前來說相關的法律裡面對原發的支出都已經有投資抵減那在執法規裡面只要在法律的這個法律的上位之下都可以訂定相關的一些細節項目"},{"start":722.908,"end":739.744,"text":"因為我們看到了目前台灣他希望能走出自己的品牌我們希望利用自己的產品在世界打出我們自己的品牌我們當然除了半導體以外我們還有非常重要的傳產"},{"start":740.845,"end":755.451,"text":"那重要的傳產裡面他們沒有透過這樣子的產品的設計的話他們沒有辦法能夠在國際有自由品牌我想要請問郭部長你知道吧你的過去你的次長"},{"start":756.731,"end":782.237,"text":"連錦章市長他現在就在設計研究院裡面當董事長他對於產業界非常熟悉所以他可以把產業界的意見以及我們設計團隊的意見共同結合起來對於台灣的這樣子設計產業的相關的這個共同研發的動力是非常大的"},{"start":782.617,"end":791.688,"text":"所以我們經濟部絕對不能夠放棄這樣子的一個項目我們一定要繼續的來培植我們的設計產業我們過去我們有金馬獎"},{"start":798.897,"end":802.3,"text":"然後呢現在我們過去我們的戲劇在國際都獲得非常好的成績現在我們的設計也有經典獎我們的設計跟世界上的設計的大獎"},{"start":815.37,"end":842.857,"text":"共同都有互相的合作那未來如果可以把台灣產品的設計力能夠展現出來的時候那是不是對於未來台灣不管是在高科技產業或者是在傳產裡面都有相關的協助那現在我們是不是能獲得我們郭部長以及莊部長共同的支持"},{"start":844.154,"end":865.585,"text":"報告委員,我們支持設計發展,所以我們編列的還不錯的預算。跟委員報告,我們藉由台灣設計研究院,整合國內的設計相關產業協會,共同來推動。每一年我們投入的經費大概有六億元。"},{"start":866.685,"end":874.575,"text":"今年大概114年是6.03億元,主要協助產業設計創新,提高產品的附加價值,藉由補助、輔導措施,協助產業的商品或服務設計價值,以提高產品的附加價值。"},{"start":885.749,"end":908.147,"text":"所以委員所垂詢的我們更推動公共服務的設計改善也推動台灣設計國際的推廣因為主要我們希望把台灣能夠重新的定位重新設計台灣是一個團隊的產業我們把它整合成團隊往外服務世界的公民"},{"start":909.039,"end":927.155,"text":"六億的預算佔其實我們三兆的總預算裡面非常小的一部分但是其實它發揮了非常大的一個影響力因為它涉及的層面不只我們的公共建設還有公共的政策還有我們的產業面那當然了"},{"start":927.535,"end":953.746,"text":"今年度的台灣設計展即將在10月10號到26號在彰化縣舉辦我們也希望行政院跟我們經濟部可以大力的協助好不好是的好 謝謝莊部長那我再請教一下我們的郭部長跟我們國發會的我們的劉主委劉主委麻煩請國發會備選"},{"start":967.04,"end":992.71,"text":"劉主委國務長覺得那個台積電都不是他的指控師不過你國發會對於台積電有投資你也是他的董事你對他的了解應該很大吧應該還可以啦還可以啊那個我想請問現在台積電即將赴美"},{"start":993.806,"end":1019.696,"text":"再投資三座,還是五座?六座總共呢?總共六座,再加三座嘛總共六座嘛還有兩個Covas廠那請問,如果未來有六加二座,就是八座在美國那相關的零組件會不會都過去?"},{"start":1020.786,"end":1043.279,"text":"基本上以我個人的立場我希望過去的原因是他有需求如果這個需求被別的國家的人拿走對我們國內的產業是不利的那我們希望讓台灣的產業立足台灣放眼全球我們希望攻城略地讓他們在美國也可以發展進而奪取美國的半導體市場"},{"start":1044.868,"end":1059.476,"text":"所以你希望其他的供應商都過去嗎我也跟委員報告一下我們在半導體的化學材料已經做到純度世界第一所以現在其實美國的大廠也發現台灣的產品的優良也開始跟台灣買"},{"start":1060.871,"end":1085.08,"text":"在沒有台積電的情況下已經有兩家廠商已經到了美國去設廠賣給Intel所以我們希望幫助台灣的產業鏈能夠再放遠全球尤其在兩個部分第一個是材料的部分第二個是設備的部分這是我們目前的短板我們希望讓它進入全球然後放大整個產業的發展這是我們供應鏈韌性的一環但是國內非常多的業者"},{"start":1087.87,"end":1103.369,"text":"會擔心的是如果我們全部都移到美國去了那台灣剩下什麼我們剩下關鍵技術跟最新的製程以及我們的研發能力因為我們會把它留下來"},{"start":1104.672,"end":1119.706,"text":"報告委員 不是台灣的產業移到美國去 不是我們是工程略進我們是護國神山的周遭我們護國神山都移到美國去了護國神山的周遭也有一些是我們最先進的技術如果只有護國神山去"},{"start":1120.186,"end":1140.92,"text":"我們的技術沒有去他在那邊重新開發會造成回頭跟我們這裡的相關產業變成競爭所以主委的意思是護國神山去我們相關配合的供應鏈產商也要去保持我們永遠在護國神山以及旁邊隨時供應鏈各種供應鏈上的領先地位到底去多少"},{"start":1142.2,"end":1169.853,"text":"這個我要通過何人的評估這個去多少是民間自己的意志我們現在沒辦法評估等他到經濟部申請的時候我們就會很清楚那去了一部分好了那留在台灣的是最關鍵的技術你能確保他會持續的壯大嗎我們要要求所有的廠商保持台灣關鍵領先的地位保持台灣關鍵技術的地位劉主委"},{"start":1171.904,"end":1193.575,"text":"廠商要壯大一定要有市場我說台積電在台灣會繼續壯大嗎?這個葦哲嘉董事長在總統府的記者會講得很清楚在台灣的投資沒有改變他說他缺電跟缺水11個廠沒有改變這他有講得很清楚報告委員這個是這樣子就是說到美國去他生產的不是最先進的"},{"start":1194.482,"end":1210.358,"text":"他希望是最先進的但是台積電他這個公司來講他不可能沒有把握的東西就在那邊生產所以他需要台灣的供應鏈這個也就是說我們總統最近在呼籲的希望把半導體這個供應鏈能夠大家"},{"start":1215.083,"end":1240.462,"text":"有一個聯盟的倡議所以我們現在經濟部就是在幫助台灣的廠商然後再結合國內外的所有半導體供應鏈的廠商能夠在台灣做最先進的研發當研發都落在台灣的時候我相信不管在不一定是在美國全球各地要發展半導體的他一定要來找我們"},{"start":1240.762,"end":1267.52,"text":"那是不是因為在美國的廠那到底有沒有辦法就是說那麼快的生產還是他建廠的過程就會有問題跟委員報告就我個人專業的這個經驗來講蓋一座廠這麼先進的一座廠如果沒有經驗去蓋那麼他肯定要花三年的時間"},{"start":1269.158,"end":1294.745,"text":"那美國也沒有台灣建廠的這樣的一個過去的經驗所以他剛開始蓋第一個廠就像這個魏董事長講的他吃盡苦頭我相信他蓋第二個廠可能會有一些improve不過還是沒有辦法借重台灣的經驗的話所以他才講說那我可能要一千個人過去來協助他順利所以我們可以看得出來"},{"start":1295.865,"end":1310.679,"text":"也就是說他可能四年內他怎麼樣加快速度但是受限於當地的建築開發廠商或者是這些建築廠商是不是有辦法在四年內蓋出來這些廠"},{"start":1314.022,"end":1338.574,"text":"這個是不是那麼容易可以做得到的一件事情那如果我們現在就是連台積電他這樣子的就是一個已經在那裡有廠的公司他都沒有辦法有就是說能夠按照他預期的去蓋廠那未來我們如果有更多的供應鏈過去的時候那我們的廠商是不是"},{"start":1339.534,"end":1360.427,"text":"所以供應鏈它會有選擇,以現在就是說我不一定要在美國生產,我在台灣製造完了以後,然後送到美國去,然後做最後一個製程,最後一個製程很重要,就是說半導體它在捷徑的環境裡面去製造,所以我相信很多的廠商會把Last Mile放在那裡做Cleaning,"},{"start":1361.067,"end":1376.465,"text":"所有的Cleaning都是包括Components包括所有的Spare parts包括他穿上Operator所穿的這個無塵衣無塵帽無塵鞋子這一些東西都是需要Cleaning我相信Cleaning的廠商一定會過去"},{"start":1377.796,"end":1391.387,"text":"但是其他的因為任何一個供應鏈的廠商他打開一條生產線是半導體晶圓生產線的十倍大所以對他來講這個量台積電將來在那邊蓋六個廠"},{"start":1396.131,"end":1421.066,"text":"該六個廠的量大概只可以滿足供應鏈一個小廠的生產量所以廠商今天到美國去他沒有義務去他要能夠賺錢他才會去所以我們認為可能會有一些最後的製程最後的需求可能會過去但是那個必須要市場夠大"},{"start":1422.327,"end":1443.565,"text":"但是美國確實太大了這個在亞利桑那下一個它的市場一定是在德州德州那邊有很多半導體的公司但是相距大概有兩千公里所以我在想一般台灣的供應鏈廠商都非常的小型小型的廠商對海外的經驗第一不足"},{"start":1444.085,"end":1470.523,"text":"第二個他的財務也會有困難第三個人才也有限所以你要現在把他帶過去其實沒有那麼簡單即使美國這樣的要求但是我想台灣的供應鏈廠商沒有那麼容易去移動這個是可以跟委員分享的部分所以我們認為台灣的廠商他一定會在重視他有市場的地方才會製造"},{"start":1471.724,"end":1489.933,"text":"但是供應的方法不一定只有在當地製造供應的方法也可能在台灣製造然後透過Logistics運送快速的運送送到滿足客戶的需求這個部分在我們過去的經驗上面都看到這樣的一個結果所以跟委員報告就是說比較專業的報告的話"},{"start":1491.434,"end":1516.851,"text":"我們尊重國內的供應商那麼他們如果有意願去發展這個美國的市場包括我剛才講的可能是生產完了以後可以賣給德州的廠商或者賣給這個華盛頓州的廠商等等但是他要有意願第一個意願他的意願一定建立在他是有獲利的這個情境下才會去那經濟部的立場就是幫助他"},{"start":1517.651,"end":1532.606,"text":"能夠快速的出海快速的落地然後能夠賺錢我要他的目的是他能夠賺到錢所以我們現在經濟部跟美國在談的也就是說不重複課稅也就是說這個不重複課稅不重複課稅雙重課稅談到哪裡了"},{"start":1538.411,"end":1557.947,"text":"現在眾議院已經過了現在在參議院在備那對經濟部來講的話就是幫助廠商能夠很穩健的在美國建立其他生產的態勢所以我想委員關心的這個命題是非常的重要"},{"start":1558.487,"end":1573.793,"text":"但是我們的供應商因為都太小型了小型的供應商非常的多所以他們會衡量自己的能力這裡面包括雖然有市場但是所以沒有能力過去的未來就要瞌睡是不是"},{"start":1576.347,"end":1599.145,"text":"我們現在跟美國在談,另外一方面保護,我們也跟美國在談,是不是在半導體能夠跟台灣一樣,台灣現在在科學園區裡面所有進口的材料、設備、零件等等是免稅的,所以我們也希望美國那邊就這一方面來講,"},{"start":1601.107,"end":1620.307,"text":"他也能夠免稅這個是我想作為我們將來談判的一個非常重要的一個關鍵好那我們知道經濟部也在推動了就是自駕車的相關的計畫在張濱工業區裡面有張濱鹿港觀光的接駁案那我想要請問現在自駕車他除了"},{"start":1624.551,"end":1649.577,"text":"可以在因為張濱工業區裡面他是一個比較人比較稀少的但是有沒有辦法在像彰化市啊像彰化市在八卦山旁邊他交通比較繁忙的區域有沒有可能在這樣子相關的區域做一般來講我們希望不影響這個所有的城市的動作動態所以這個測試呢可以在晚上"},{"start":1650.317,"end":1663.66,"text":"夜間在某一個區塊固定的區塊我們經過公告這個當然要地方政府能夠配合因為畢竟現在已經從電動車要發展成自駕車了這也是未來整個AI的"},{"start":1671.662,"end":1693.714,"text":"就是相關的發展的一個趨勢如果永遠都只有在觀光區在工業區裡面那這樣子就沒有辦法發展成一個他這個需要跟委員報告就是說他在工業區或者在實驗區裡面他有安全的考量所以當你這個智慧城市"},{"start":1694.854,"end":1721.713,"text":"這個周邊配套的都已經完備了以後那麼我們自駕車就放到這個智慧城市的這個區域裡面去進行這個事情我想我們現在有很多的這個配合也就是說每個地方他要做智慧城市的這個開發跟研發那麼我們自駕車當然就是其中的一部分那麼在還沒有得到這個地方政府的配合情況之下自駕車只能在自己的有安全"},{"start":1722.855,"end":1723.257,"text":"無綠的場域裡面來做實驗"},{"start":1727.693,"end":1753.413,"text":"你認為什麼時候我們的自駕車可以發展成在馬路上因為畢竟還有我們的產業什麼時候可以切入自駕車因為現在其實我們知道的我們電動車在發展的過程當中因為零組件的減少導致於我們現在電動車相關的產業大家也面臨到一個生產的瓶頸"},{"start":1754.173,"end":1769.405,"text":"那未來又是自駕車的這樣子一個時代那台灣怎麼切進去那怎麼樣子能夠讓我們就是台灣相關的零組件的廠商能夠及早佈局能夠切入這個相關的這個產業鏈裡面"},{"start":1772.112,"end":1786.507,"text":"報告委員因為台灣的市場其實還不夠大所以我們建議台灣在做自駕車的廠商他要做成EMS也就是說幫人家做代工不是自己的品牌"},{"start":1787.108,"end":1814.936,"text":"但是是共同的它可以生產因為有生產的經濟的量出來以後那麼我們台灣做這些零組件的廠商就會有很大的量它可以降低成本那台灣因為這樣子的話替別人替有品牌的公司來代工製造的話這裡面呢我們可以得到比較高的這個利益因為為什麼因為我們幾乎啊自駕車裡面所用的電子零組件這個都是我們台灣擁有非常高的優勢"},{"start":1815.976,"end":1838.845,"text":"那第二個做EMS代工的這個這個產業在台灣來講已經非常的成熟台灣的EMS會得到世界啊任何的這個有品牌公司的讚許主要是我們具有速度又好 謝謝謝依鳳委員的資訊謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的備詢謝謝歡迎現在在議場二樓"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":553,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時22分）謝謝院長，我想要請卓院長、農業部長，還有環境部長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長、農業部、環境部備詢。"],["謝委員衣鳯：卓院長早安。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想要了解一下，其實我知道減碳一直是我們政府的目標，但是我們看到了對於農民有幫助的，在減碳部分，因為現在有非常多的企業投入了SDG以及ESG相關的發展，這都跟農業有絕對的相關性，我也去看了彰化縣農業非常多有志於發展農業科技、結合綠電以及永續發展的農資、農材，但是我發現了一個非常奇怪的，就是當農業要來減碳的時候，一定要有減碳的方法學。我想要請問的是彭部長，目前環境部對於減碳的方法學審理，到底需要多久的時間？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，過去的確是比較久，但是我們現在……"],["謝委員衣鳯：過去多久？"],["彭部長啓明：過去可能都要一、兩年……"],["謝委員衣鳯：非常久。"],["彭部長啓明：因為過去比較久，但是現在大概我們通過了5個……"],["謝委員衣鳯：過去多久？你說。"],["彭部長啓明：過去我不清楚，但是我們過去這幾個月大概通過了4個方法學。"],["謝委員衣鳯：幾個月？"],["彭部長啓明：包含了森林的管理、竹林，還有各種的育苗的處理，其實已經有5個方法學已經……"],["謝委員衣鳯：那未來呢？"],["彭部長啓明：未來……目前例如海洋的海藻或是紅樹林也正在申請當中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為我覺得減碳的方法學對於農民是非常重要的，尤其是小農。過去我在質詢農委會的時候，我們就怎麼樣子把這些方法學……因為小農沒有辦法自己去提出申請，一定是農委會等相關的協助小農，對於整個企業的方法學，一定要讓他們有一個可以共同遵循的方向，但是在方法學的審理上面，即便這個方法學是在農業部這邊，是不是？"],["陳部長駿季：沒有，我跟委員報告，農業部本身所擬定的，目前有5個方法學送到環境部，環境部過往是比較慢，但是將近一年來，其實他們審理的速度平均大概是6個月到8個月就可以出來。最近比較重要、委員所關切的，特別是跟耕作有關的土壤方法學，現在也已經進到環境部的第2次審查，我們預計審查過程裡面有些須修正的，如果過了以後，對於農業經營上面的這些減碳作為就會很有幫助。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對。如果沒有減碳方法學的時候，農民怎麼利用減碳去得到除了種植農作物以外，就是國際在追求減碳的過程當中他們額外的收入，我們知道目前農民的數量減少，但是有青農加入，我們希望青農加入以後，可以藉由這種對於農業新興的獲利方式來協助他們，除了在耕作以外，能夠藉由碳費得到一筆收入，這是我們希望能夠帶來未來農業可以永續發展，以及結合現在企業要投入永續農業與ESG相關作為的時候，如果環境部的方法學沒有提出、沒有加速審理的話，你們都還在這裡舉步不前的話，這樣未來農業怎麼發展？是不是？"],["彭部長啓明：報告委員，這個是我們非常重視的，但是因為臺灣過去對於農業的方法學是比較陌生的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：減碳的方法學。"],["彭部長啓明：現在有在加快。但是我也跟委員報告，因為我們目前的碳費價格只有300塊，其實在市場上，如果農民來做這個，現在的價值性不高，我們未來更重要的一環是要推動總量管制的排放交易，如果明年下半年我們可以上路的話，農民的誘因……因為臺灣的土地相對農民的土地都比較小，他要做整個碳匯價值、額外收入的話，其實成本跟收入不成比例的，所以未來我們也會擴大再跟農民溝通，希望來幫助農民在減碳的部分能夠獲得不一樣的收益。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。"],["陳部長駿季：我在這邊再跟委員補充，就是個別農戶因為土地面積小，就算得到碳費，本身的減碳價值是非常低的，所以我們已經同步針對個體小農去集結，變成集團栽培的經營組去處理，那樣他會得到比較大的量，可以跟ESG結合，在第一個部分；第二個部分就是委員所關切的，其實在彰化有很多葡萄農的枝條，現在農業部也推動了剩餘資源的循環再利用，特別是將這些枝條剪下來以後，經過粉碎變成生質燃料棒，這個生質燃料棒也可以當作能源的替代。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝彭部長。我想要請衛福部邱部長。"],["主席：麻煩請衛福部備詢。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想請問一下，對於紐西蘭牛乳進口的部分，其實酪農還是很希望可以維持鮮乳的名稱，紐西蘭進口的鮮乳能夠不要加上「長效鮮乳」，以「長效乳」標示，為什麼衛福部都沒有辦法？"],["陳部長駿季：我是不是可以說明一下？"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。"],["陳部長駿季：現在我們跟衛福部其實針對這個議題討論了非常多，最新的共識而且也經過與酪農座談討論的就是，未來只要是有鮮乳標章、產銷履歷跟CAS等的國產鮮乳才能夠標示為「鮮乳」，然後其他的部分，包括進口的，我們修正了經濟部標準局相關的規範，未來牛乳的話，只能分為牛乳、羊乳，不能再加「鮮」字，因為「鮮」字本身是一個形容詞，它很難界定是幾天以下才叫做「鮮」。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以未來只有國內生產的牛乳？"],["陳部長駿季：國內生產的牛乳，而且是要取得鮮乳證明標章、產銷履歷或是CAS，這三個標章是為了讓國內的牛乳本身具有產品的差異化，透過這樣的產品差異化，才能夠讓國產牛乳在市面上有比較大的競爭力。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以未來紐西蘭或其他國家進口的就不能夠加上「鮮」嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：對，根據相關的規定，就只能叫做牛奶、牛乳。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以就不會加上鮮乳，就是會排解目前國內酪農的疑慮，是不是？我希望我們的相關作業能夠加速，可以嗎？今年度是因為紐西蘭的牛乳生產並不多，進口的數量也不多，未來如果進口數量多的話，恐怕會影響國內酪農的相關生產。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員提供一個數據，其實紐西蘭進口的以去年來講是一萬三千多噸，一萬三千多噸裡面有將近一萬噸是保久乳的系統，其實紐西蘭的鮮乳進口量只占整個進口量的30%。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。邱部長，再麻煩你協助這個部分的相關法令，好不好？"],["邱部長泰源：好，是的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長泰源：好，謝謝。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想要再請問一下經濟部的郭部長，謝謝。"],["主席：農業部、衛福部請回。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：剛才陳部長提到農業的減廢，其實我昨天排了一個到台灣設計研究院的考察，也就是經濟部所屬的財團法人，我們去看了，它裡面已經有設計好的機臺，能夠將果皮或是果渣等等藉由轉變，變成可穿的布料或是作為電動車車上的皮料，這樣的研究讓我們的循環經濟能夠成為可實現的方法，我想要請問一下，經濟部以及行政院是不是應該要大力支持？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，經濟部有支持，我們有提供研發投資抵減，抵減率大概15%，各個產業都可以來申請適用。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想請問的是，因為設計本身是一個產業，目前產品的設計以及相關的部分，這是不是也請財政部……"],["主席：麻煩請財政部備詢。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，設計業者從事具一定創新程度的創作，這些相關研發的支出也可以申請，在修訂設備投資抵減的子辦法時，亦會將設計業所需的AI軟硬體設備或者技術納入評估，這部分的抵減率有5%。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。我是說對於品牌的設計以及對於產品製程的相關設計，尤其是對於像這樣的農廢再循環利用，變成工業產品相關製程的研發設計，是不是不用透過修法，以子法的修訂就可以把它納入企業的投資抵減項目裡面？這部分郭部長是大力支持，那莊部長呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前來說，相關法律對於研發支出都已經有投資抵減，在子法規裡面，只要在法律的上位之下，都可以訂定相關的細節項目。"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為我們看到目前臺灣希望能走出自己的品牌，我們希望利用自己的產品在世界打出我們自己的品牌，當然除了半導體以外，我們還有非常重要的傳產，如果沒有透過這樣的產品設計，就沒有辦法在國際有自有品牌。我想要請問郭部長，你知道吧？過去你們的連錦漳次長，他現在就在設計研究院裡面當董事長，他對於產業界非常熟悉，所以他可以把產業界的意見及我們設計團隊的意見共同結合起來，對於臺灣設計產業相關的共同研發動力是非常大的，所以經濟部絕對不能夠放棄這樣的項目，一定要繼續培植我們的設計產業。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：過去我們有金馬獎，過去我們的戲劇在國際都獲得非常好的成績，現在我們的設計也有金點獎，我們的設計跟世界上的設計大獎都有互相的合作，如果可以把臺灣產品的設計力展現出來，未來對於臺灣不管是在高科技產業或者是在傳產裡面都有相關的協助，現在是不是能獲得郭部長以及莊部長共同的支持？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們支持設計發展，所以我們編列還不錯的預算，我們藉由台灣設計研究院整合國內的設計相關產業協會共同來推動，每一年投入的經費大概有6億元，今（114）年是6.03億元，主要協助產業設計創新、提高產品的附加價值，藉由補助、輔導措施協助產業商品或者服務設計價值，以提高產品的附加價值。關於委員所垂詢的，我們推動公共服務的設計改善，也推動臺灣設計在國際的推廣，主要我們希望把臺灣能夠重新定位、重新設計，臺灣是一個團隊的產業，我們把它整合成團隊、往外服務世界的公民。"],["謝委員衣鳯：6億的預算其實占3兆總預算裡面非常小的一部分，但是它發揮了非常大的影響力，因為它涉及的層面不只公共建設，還有公共的政策、還有我們的產業面。今年度的台灣設計展即將於10月10號到26號在彰化縣舉辦，我們也希望行政院跟經濟部可以大力的協助，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝莊部長。","那我再請教一下郭部長跟國發會的劉主委。"],["卓院長榮泰：劉主委。"],["主席：麻煩請國發會備詢。"],["謝委員衣鳯：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是，委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：郭部長覺得台積電不是他的子公司，不過國發會對於台積電有投資，你也是它的董事，你對它的了解應該很大吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：應該還可以。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我想請問，現在台積電即將赴美再投資3座，還是5座？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：6座。"],["謝委員衣鳯：6座，總共呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：總共6座，再加3座。"],["謝委員衣鳯：再加3座，總共6座嘛。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：還有2個CoWoS廠。"],["謝委員衣鳯：請問如果未來有6加2座，就是8座在美國，那相關的零組件會不會都過去？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：基本上以我個人的立場，我希望過去的原因是它有需求，如果這個需求被別的國家拿走，對我們國內的產業是不利的，我們希望讓臺灣的產業立足臺灣、放眼全球。我們希望攻城掠地、讓他們在美國也可以發展，進而奪取美國半導體市場的供應鏈。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以你希望其他的供應商都過去嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我也跟委員報告一下，我們在半導體的化學材料已經做到純度世界第一，所以現在美國的大廠也發現臺灣產品的優良、也開始跟臺灣買，所以在沒有台積電的情況下，已經有2家廠商到美國設廠，賣給Intel，我們希望幫助臺灣的產業鏈能夠再放遠全球，尤其在兩個部分，第一個是材料的部分，第二個是設備的部分，這是我們目前的短板，希望讓它進入全球，然後放大整個產業發展，這是我們供應鏈韌性的一環。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是國內非常多的業者會擔心，如果我們全部都移到美國去了，那臺灣剩下什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們剩下關鍵技術、最新的製程，以及我們的研發能力，因為我們會把它留下來。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，不是臺灣的產業移到美國去……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們是攻城掠地。"],["郭部長智輝：我們是設分公司。"],["卓院長榮泰：是護國神山的周遭……"],["謝委員衣鳯：護國神山都移到美國去了。"],["卓院長榮泰：護國神山的周遭也有一些是我們最先進的技術，如果只有護國神山去，我們的技術沒有去，它在那邊重新開發，會造成回頭跟我們這裡的相關產業變成競爭，所以主委的意思是護國神山去，我們相關配合的供應鏈廠商也要去，保持我們永遠在護國神山，以及旁邊垂直供應鏈、各種供應鏈上的領先地位。"],["謝委員衣鳯：到底去多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：這個要去評估。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：去多少是民間自己的意志，我們現在沒辦法評估，等它到經濟部申請的時候，我們就會很清楚。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那去了一部分好了，留在臺灣的是最關鍵的技術，你能確保它會持續的壯大嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們要要求所有的廠商保持臺灣關鍵領先的地位、保持臺灣關鍵技術的地位。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對嗎？劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：廠商要壯大一定要有市場。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我說台積電在臺灣會繼續壯大嗎？以及相關的半導體。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：魏哲家董事長在總統府記者會講得很清楚，在臺灣的投資沒有改變……"],["謝委員衣鳯：他說缺電跟缺水。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：11個廠沒有改變，這他有講得很清楚。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，可是他說缺水缺電。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，到美國生產的不是最先進，它希望是最先進，但是台積電這個公司來講，不可能沒有把握的東西就在那邊生產，所以它需要臺灣的供應鏈，這個也就是我們總統最近在呼籲的，希望半導體的供應鏈能夠有一個聯盟的倡議，所以現在經濟部就是在幫助臺灣的廠商，然後再結合國內外所有半導體供應鏈的廠商，能夠在臺灣做最先進的研發，當研發都落在臺灣的時候，不一定是在美國，我相信不管是美國或全球各地要發展半導體，一定要來找我們。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那麼在美國的廠，到底有沒有辦法那麼快的生產？"],["郭部長智輝：不可能。"],["謝委員衣鳯：還是建廠的過程就會有問題？"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，就我個人專業的經驗來講，蓋一座這麼先進的廠，如果沒有經驗去蓋，那麼肯定要花3年的時間，美國過去也沒有臺灣建廠的經驗，所以剛開始蓋第1個廠，就像魏董事長講的，吃盡苦頭，我相信蓋第2個廠可能會有一些improve，不過還是沒有辦法不借重臺灣的經驗，所以他才講可能要1,000個人過去協助它順利進行。由此我們可以看得出來，可能4年內要怎樣加快速度，但是受限於當地開發的廠商，或者建築的廠商，是不是有辦法在4年內蓋出來這些廠？這個不是那麼容易可以做得到的一件事情。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果現在連台積電這樣一個已經在那裡有廠的公司，都沒有辦法能夠按照預期的去蓋廠，那未來如果有更多的供應鏈過去的時候，我們的廠商是不是……"],["郭部長智輝：所以供應鏈會有選擇，以現在而言，不一定要在美國生產，我在臺灣製造完了以後，然後送到美國去做最後一個製程；最後一個製程很重要，就是半導體在潔淨的環境裡面製造，所以我相信很多廠商會把last mile放在那裡做cleaning，所有的cleaning都是，包括components、包括所有的spare parts，包括他穿上、operator所穿的無塵衣、無塵帽、無塵鞋子，這一些東西都需要cleaning，我相信cleaning的廠商一定會過去，但是其他的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以只有清潔的廠商需要過去……"],["郭部長智輝：因為任何一個供應鏈的廠商大概一條生產線是半導體晶圓生產線的10倍大，所以對它來講，台積電將來在那邊蓋6個廠，蓋那6個廠的量大概只可以滿足供應鏈1個小廠的生產量，所以廠商今天到美國去，它沒有義務去啦！它要能夠賺錢，它才會去，所以我們認為可能會有一些最後的製程、最後的需求會過去，但是必須要市場夠大，但是美國確實太大了，這個在Arizona，它的下一個市場一定是在德州，德州有很多半導體的公司，但是相距大概有2,000公里。一般臺灣的供應鏈廠商都非常的小型，小型的廠商對海外的經驗，第一個、不足；第二個、財務也會有困難；第三個、人才也有限，所以現在要把它帶過去，其實沒有那麼簡單。即使美國這樣要求，但是我想臺灣的供應鏈廠商沒有那麼容易去移動，這個是可以跟委員分享的部分。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。"],["郭部長智輝：我們認為臺灣的廠商一定會重視，有市場的地方才會製造，但是供應的方法不一定只有在當地製造，供應的方法也可能在臺灣製造，然後透過logistics快速的運送，以滿足客戶的需求，這個部分在我們過去的經驗上面，都有看到這樣的結果。","所以跟委員比較專業的報告，我們尊重國內的供應商，他們如果有意願去發展美國的市場，包括我剛才講的，可能是生產完了以後可以賣給德州的廠商，或者賣給華盛頓州的廠商等等，但是它要有意願，第一個、意願，它的意願一定建立在它是有獲利的情境下才會去。那經濟部的立場就是幫助它能夠快速的出海、快速的落地，然後能夠賺錢，我要它的目的是它能夠賺到錢，所以現在經濟部跟美國在談的是不重複課稅，這是第一個。第二個，我們希望……"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，不重複課稅，雙重課稅談到哪裡了？"],["郭部長智輝：現在眾議院已經過了，現在在參議院在備。對經濟部來講，就是幫助廠商能夠很穩健的在美國來建立起生產的態勢。我想委員關心的這個命題非常的重要，因為我們的供應商都太小型了，小型的供應商非常的多，所以他們會衡量自己的能力，雖然有市場，但是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以沒有能力過去的，未來就要課稅，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在跟美國在談另外一方面保護，我們也跟美國在談，是不是半導體能夠跟臺灣一樣。臺灣現在在科學園區裡面所有進口的材料、設備、零件等等是免稅的，所以我們也希望美國那邊就這一方面來講，也能夠免稅。這個是我想作為我們將來談判非常重要的關鍵。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，我們知道經濟部也在推動自駕車的相關計畫，在彰濱工業區裡面有彰濱鹿港觀光的接駁案，我想要請問，現在自駕車除了可以在……因為彰濱工業區是一個人比較稀少的地方，但是有沒有辦法像彰化市八卦山旁邊交通比較繁忙的區域，有沒有可能在這樣相關的區域做試駕？"],["郭部長智輝：一般來講，我們希望不影響所有城市的動態，所以測試可以在晚上、夜間，在某一個夜間、在某一個固定的區塊，我們經過公告，這個當然要地方政府能夠配合，我想自駕車的部分……"],["謝委員衣鳯：畢竟現在已經從電動車要發展成自駕車了，這也是未來整個AI發展的趨勢。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果永遠都只有在觀光區、工業區裡面……"],["郭部長智輝：不會。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這樣子就沒有辦法發展成一個……"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告……"],["謝委員衣鳯：什麼時候可以做？"],["郭部長智輝：它在工業區或者是在實驗區裡面有安全的考量，所以當智慧城市周邊配套都已經完備了以後，自駕車就放到智慧城市的區域裡面去進行這個事情，我想現在有很多的配合，也就是每個地方要做智慧城市的開發跟研發，自駕車當然是其中的一部分，在還沒有得到地方政府配合的情況之下，自駕車只能在自己的、安全無慮的場域裡面來做實驗了。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，你認為什麼時候我們的自駕車可以發展成在馬路上，還有我們的產業什麼時候可以切入自駕車？我們知道電動車在發展的過程當中，因為零組件的減少，導致現在電動車相關產業面臨到生產的瓶頸，未來又是自駕車的時代，臺灣怎麼切進去？怎麼讓臺灣相關的零組件廠商能夠及早布局，切入相關的產業鏈裡面？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為臺灣的市場其實還不夠大，所以我們建議臺灣在做自駕車的廠商要做成EMS，也就是幫人家代工，不是自己的品牌，但是是共同的，它可以生產。因為有生產經濟的量出來以後，臺灣做這些零組件的廠商就會有很大的量，可以降低成本。臺灣替有品牌的公司來代工製造，可以得到比較高的利益，因為自駕車裡面所用的電子零組件，臺灣幾乎都擁有非常高的優勢。","第二個，做EMS代工的產業，在臺灣來講已經非常的成熟，臺灣的EMS會得到世界任何有品牌公司的讚許，主要是我們具有速度、又具有彈性，彈性跟速度基本上是背道而馳，但是臺灣就同時擁有。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，現在議場2樓旁聽的是來自屏東潮州長青協會的好朋友，熱情歡迎。","報告院會，上午的質詢到此為止，本次會議沒有委員提出臨時提案，我們不進行臨時提案的處理。","下午2點30分繼續開會進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（11時53分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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剛剛有看到吧"},{"start":56.36,"end":77.537,"text":"我們再放一次好了這裡有51班喔對,51班齁那我們後川國小的這個位置就在科學園區的旁邊你們看一下這是一個小型的一個室內的一個運動場一個運動的一個區域"},{"start":81.087,"end":104.734,"text":"那後莊國小的位置就在科學園區旁邊那竹科的員工上個月已經有17萬8633人比起五年前增加了兩萬五千人左右竹科飽和帶來的外溢效益讓很多的新竹上班的人選擇搬到苗栗的竹南跟投奉當然我們非常非常歡迎他們到苗栗來那"},{"start":108.503,"end":133.257,"text":"我們在2022年的時候成為少數人口一路正成長的一個縣市更值得一提的是到去年2月到今年2月一年之間涉及在頭份竹南的人口增加了2117人近三年大概增加了6000人每一年以1%的這個速度成長在整個台灣來講是非常少見的"},{"start":134.724,"end":141.965,"text":"那現在竹南頭份市區的國中國小幾乎都是額滿的我們面臨的是學校小孩子根本就沒有教室上課"},{"start":142.932,"end":165.324,"text":"那接下來桃竹苗大溪谷計畫的推動我想我們預估未來會增加14萬個工作機會那可預期的就是孩子的這個受教的一個問題其實桃竹苗大溪谷計畫當初在核定的時候配套就包含要確保水電無虞嘛交通的順暢醫療充足員工居住跟子女教育的部分"},{"start":166.226,"end":191.212,"text":"沒錯吧,我們當初也涵蓋在這裡面那我們以南科來說增加台南、高雄、嘉義、屏東園區園區裡面每一個園區都有一所實驗的學校我們不是說別人有,我們苗栗也要有但是苗栗確實有這個需要那我們再看一下剛剛下一張照片這個好"},{"start":195.766,"end":222.409,"text":"這是二月中我們開的一個座談會來參與的都是家長這個人數是爆滿的我們希望因應園區的發展小孩子的就業需求在竹南科學園區裡面設立實驗中學那目前我們中縣長也已經找好了地是縣府的地大概有九公頃左右那地由地方出中央出錢一起合作我們那天的座談會教育部有派人來參加"},{"start":224.302,"end":240.795,"text":"教育部目前應該是沒有什麼問題現在就等院長跟國科會我們這邊點頭我不知道院長的意思呢非常感謝邱委員如此關心教育的問題能夠關心下一代是我們必須該做的重要的事情"},{"start":241.601,"end":256.701,"text":"那隨著科學園區的增加產業的發展我們需要更多的這種教育的設施空間所以我想無論從硬體軟體 絲織各方面來十足的增加都必須要的而且"},{"start":258.069,"end":282.45,"text":"委員所說的已經不是光是教育部的問題了我們的實驗中學 與其在科學園區的實驗中學都是國科會要全面來規劃來執行的所以國科會吳主委也一直在討論這個事情那我也相當的了解 目前進度過程吳主委來答覆我們請吳主委講一下我們科學園區實驗中學需要在園區籌設計畫抱怨"},{"start":284.994,"end":292.153,"text":"核定及取得學校用地產權後才能夠進行評估規劃現在縣府已經找到地"},{"start":294.015,"end":317.304,"text":"目前我們整個產業的需求現在還沒有很明確因為原來竹南科學園區的這個土地上次院長也去看過現在縣政府所規劃的三塊地其實都不符合現在產業的需求我想問主委我們大溪谷計畫是不是確定會推動"},{"start":319.218,"end":332.984,"text":"已經核定了但是地方政府要配合當然當然我們絕對會配合就是說那既然要推動是不是小孩子就這個教育的問題受教的問題是不是要優先考量而且要提早來進行因為"},{"start":333.803,"end":351.999,"text":"孩子的成長只有一次他沒有辦法重來也不能等他錯過了這一次機會如果我們慢了一年他的未來就影響到是比較快速的方法是趕快在既有的學校趕快擴充問題他剛剛我講了他那個土地只有1.8公尺因為需要要成立科學園區的實驗中學"},{"start":353.58,"end":370.512,"text":"是有他的一些既定的這個辦法我想委員非常清楚我們要做很完善的調查這位委員報告這個部長也跟鍾縣長有過接觸有討論過那目前這個部長在教育部裡面的作業我請部長來說明"},{"start":372.715,"end":389.439,"text":"我想謝謝委員關心竹南竹苗地區的一些從小學國中到高中的一些教育的一個機會的提供跟教育品質上的一個確保確實我們也看到竹苗這三個縣是因為科學園區的一個進駐"},{"start":395.192,"end":403.2,"text":"這個人口是在增加的所以我們在今年的一月對目前的竹苗八所的高中我們已經撥了3,507萬先用來增班"},{"start":408.798,"end":436.438,"text":"這是一個馬上立即可以改善我跟妳報告那跟委員報告那另外我們也核定就是說從今年開始我們這一個苗栗縣投訓國中的西社校社二十千的教師的工程經費有一億七千將近八千萬這一個用來希望能夠趕快增設這個學校我想另外還有一個苗栗的這個大同高中跟"},{"start":437.098,"end":451.994,"text":"新華高中我們也給予這一個經費的補助都希望從快速的校舍的徵建學校的成立部長你講的沒錯這是一般的校舍啦一般的校舍其實當初我們中央補助了非常多的一個實驗教室實驗室"},{"start":454.016,"end":470.173,"text":"那現在這些實驗室根本就是已經拿來當作教室在用了所以學生連實驗室都沒有這個部分本來就是要解決那我們提的實驗中學它其實的目的是在於說因為我們很多這個園區的員工的子女受教的問題"},{"start":470.934,"end":490.381,"text":"一般來說如果我們家不成立未來我們苗栗縣的這些搬到苗栗縣的來這些園區的員工的子女他未來要到新竹去念實驗中學是不可能的他進不去的所以我們是希望把人才留在苗栗才會跟我們中間來提這件事情你懂我意思嗎"},{"start":492.571,"end":509.801,"text":"不過我們是已經跟縣政府有討論過這個事我們竹科管理局也是很積極在協助那我們希望苗栗縣政府趕快先進行擴建用地規劃這個規劃還是要符合我們產業需求這個規劃完成以後我們竹科管理局會"},{"start":510.781,"end":538.749,"text":"取得產權之後土地規劃完,用地取得你不能先核地嗎?先准他嗎?他就可以先前作業嘛,不是嗎?要先前作業,現在可能性評估在做可是現在三塊用地其實是並不符合我們現在講的重要產業他的這個需求啦那當然啦,這個縣府我這是另外一個層面我們當然會加緊腳步跟中央好好的配合啦那我現在講的就是說這個部分我們不能拿出來先來做一個事前的一個準備嘛"},{"start":539.99,"end":566.093,"text":"讓我們在後續才能夠知道我們下一步要做什麼委員剛剛主委講說現在的土地評估起來不是很適合也請委員拜託我們到對地方了解有沒有更好的地點我們可以再繼續做評估那原則上我這樣問好了我們院長主委部長你們支不支持我們大溪谷計畫的園區裡面我們住在園區裡面增設一所實驗中學你支持嗎我們評估"},{"start":568.13,"end":591.048,"text":"確定有這個需求我們當然一定會盡力來協助現在我就覺得 你就答應我就好了嘛不是 我們還是評估因為用地取得對啦 我知道啦 我的意思是說你既然大溪谷計畫既然要確定要實施那為什麼學校我認為趨勢上我們應該要提早因應做準備但是如果沒有找到合適的地點 大小"},{"start":592.009,"end":610.095,"text":"他的位置的土地那也是沒有辦法執行所以趕快來找找看適合的地點是何在我們就進行來評估如何來設置怎麼樣規模內容的一個怎麼樣學校但地點要先有著落好的土地的問題我們來解決啦那我們會支持孩子受教的問題嗎對不對"},{"start":612.168,"end":641.394,"text":"是是是,我們當然那個桃中原大氣谷的這個發展已經在行政院通過了我們科學園區管理局會積極來協助因為你看嘉義、嘉科、平科、時中111年核定,113年八月就開始招生了他現在還沒蓋好他當然土地的問題這個我知道,那我們回去加緊腳步那請我們主委跟我們部長還院長大家一起來努力來推動這件事情好嗎"},{"start":642.294,"end":670.157,"text":"好 謝謝部長請回那接下來我再請問我們的院長我們賴清同總統上週在宣布這個17項策略之後人民還有各行各業普遍都感覺到台灣的民主變了調雖然總統沒有宣布戰爭也沒有宣布戒嚴但是對外就是進入了準戰爭的時期對內呢就是實施類戒嚴"},{"start":671.26,"end":699.77,"text":"那賴總統說中國大陸危險嚴重我們有召開或者是參加這個緊急的因應會議嗎有就開了幾次這一次兩次都有參加那院長你認為台灣是一個民主國家嗎當然是我也認同你剛剛講的但是我覺得讓我們覺得我們賴清德總統賴政府正在複製一段歷史"},{"start":700.595,"end":728.655,"text":"一樣的反共一樣的反民族主義的口號一樣的製造內部跟外部的敵人一樣的利用抹黑的手段媒體抹黑的手段一樣的藉體發揮面對不同的聲音一樣的貼標籤然後要做司法的變革一樣的政治目的目的就是要消滅我們在野黨你有沒有覺得這個似曾相識絕對非如此我們只是在面對境外"},{"start":730.062,"end":755.023,"text":"敵對勢力對我們不斷的併吞跟滲透的意圖我們築起一道更高更堅固自我防衛的高牆這絕對不是準戰爭的行為這是自我防衛的決心自我防衛的責任就是說我們現在賴政府所做的事情跟希特勒非常相似完全不一樣那我們總統講一句話我們就要恢復軍事審判這個不是獨裁嗎"},{"start":757.617,"end":785.747,"text":"當然不是 軍事審判我再說明他只有針對現役軍人的五種軍事犯罪叛亂 利敵 泄密 廢止職務以及抗命軍人不能有這五種行為有這五種行為就是軍事審判我們總統公開宣布了30分鐘那台灣人民可能有一半以上就開始擔心以後的生活那按照民主法制的精神恢復軍事審判制度要不要修法"},{"start":786.67,"end":815.443,"text":"我們會啟動所有相關的修法包括軍法官人士的條例我們也要有更有經驗跟民主素養的軍法官來處理這些案子草案你有沒有正在處理啊什麼時候要提呢我希望我們在一個月內提了之後會跟社會溝通嗎當然我們現在所有的立法過程都必須跟社會也要跟大院溝通對啦 不要總統一宣布你們就配合著修法我認為爭取社會"},{"start":816.463,"end":832.478,"text":"的認同更重要我們會啟動相關必要的程序這才是民主國家啦跟委員報告我想我們在研擬的過程當中都要跟社會各界保持溝通也要跟這個相關的這些專業人士來進行諮商這樣子"},{"start":833.599,"end":852.12,"text":"那根據中華民國憲法總統是可以宣戰也可以宣布戒嚴公布法令發布命令但是我沒有聽過總統一句話就可以把這個現有的法律直接改掉的那要不要恢復軍事審判這是一個嚴肅的問題我們可以認真對待這件事情嗎 院長"},{"start":854.159,"end":873.822,"text":"這個朝野的委員在過去也都有這樣相關的提案所以不是總統的一句話總統宣示一個政策出來之後民主國家按照民主的程序來完成所有相關立法跟配套這是現在我們必須馬上開始要做的所以立法的也都要經過立法院的同意啊"},{"start":874.582,"end":895.072,"text":"這個不是說我們相關這樣一下宣布就可以進行因為我們研擬完之後跟這一個專業人士諮商跟社會溝通者還是要送大院來審議好,我希望你們講的要照做就是說你們常常在喊的是沒有討論就沒有民主我希望你們不要"},{"start":896.775,"end":915.209,"text":"一邊講一種話回來講了又另外一種話那我們當然是不允許我們的國軍裡面有人做出危害國家安危的事情那但是你們現在對外一致的回答讓民眾覺得你在告訴大家馬英九任內我們兩岸溝通非常良好非常和平"},{"start":916.038,"end":926.703,"text":"蔡英文任內呢 也還算穩定所以沒有軍法的重啟軍法的這個必要那現在我們賴總統一上任之後就認為軍機就變換散了就準備開戰了現在是這個原因嗎"},{"start":932.125,"end":956.158,"text":"我們外面的解讀是這樣我想院長已經一切的說明了這個我想我們就已經限縮為現役軍人犯軍人職務上是犯罪這跟這個戒嚴沒有任何的關聯不然我再問你你過去是支持廢除軍事法庭的那你要為你過去的審判制度道歉嗎"},{"start":957.333,"end":984.88,"text":"我想我們現在要來的是一個重新打造一個新的符合公平審判原則跟正當法律原則的一個新的您的意思是說你2013年當時你還是顧立雄律師的時候你的失律不周、倉促行事盧蟒而廢除的軍事審判是錯的嗎?我想當時的軍事審判制度有違憲的地方有這個不符合公平法律設計的地方那時候為什麼不改要廢呢?"},{"start":986.04,"end":1003.048,"text":"當時我並不是國防部長所以你現在你現在擔任的你就要飛了但是我現在擔任我當然有這個職責來讓這個軍事審判是合於現場的意志因為現在的司法跟檢調都不普遍都不太讓人民信任更何況是完全在威權的這個軍隊裡"},{"start":1005.249,"end":1026.422,"text":"軍事審判要不要恢復這是一個嚴肅的問題民主國家很多國家都有軍事審判的這樣的一個制度其實我們的立場一直沒有認為說要把它廢除我們只是說這個東西當然是可以更透明這是我們當初國民黨的一貫的立場那當初說要廢的是你啊是你們民進黨"},{"start":1027.483,"end":1042.641,"text":"那現在說要恢復的也是民進黨神也是你們鬼也是你們這個立場反覆啊讓人民沒有辦法溝通嘛你要怎麼樣去去跟像那些當初為了洪仲秋的案子的號召的上街頭的24萬人"},{"start":1044.718,"end":1063.692,"text":"他們要情何以堪啊德國委員報告我們回憶到當時是因為內在的因素因為領滅的事件軍中人權被忽略了所以內在的因素經過種種社會的反應是馬前總統的宣布廢除了軍事研判今天我們面對是外在的威脅"},{"start":1065.473,"end":1093.592,"text":"內部的因素我們已經完整的保存了人權跟包裝金融人權未來我們也會有更有經驗更有民主更有法律素養的軍法官來審理所以沒有內在因素的問題我們面對的是外在的威脅你現在解釋就是說跟現在時空背景是不一樣以前追求的是安居樂業那以兩岸和平為主軸那現在你說追求兩岸和平是溫柔的投降"},{"start":1094.552,"end":1119.444,"text":"是這樣我說私私有兩種和平也有兩種一種是國家要夠強一種是束手投降在我看來這是掌權者無視人命的倔強就是保障國人才可以這麼做你還記得賴清德總統要上任的時候他有一個影片廣告宣傳他是上了一部轎車對吧"},{"start":1121.545,"end":1134.773,"text":"可是我現在看起來他當選之後他是不是上錯車了他開到火車了不會轉彎 直走我們開一部往和平的車往和平中站的車但是我們每天受到"},{"start":1136.721,"end":1151.28,"text":"軍機軍艦的威脅在台灣環繞不是從今天開始也不是從520開始好啦院長最後來我跟你講我們內閣裡面有很多人失言、造謠甚至當側翼的這些官員你們可以用很多的政治語言去粉飾太平"},{"start":1151.801,"end":1179.122,"text":"但是總統對外講的話會牽動國家的生死存亡也會帶著2300萬人民的生命財產安全受到影響那我希望以後這種事情我希望你們能夠更審慎的來討論我們兩岸的關係跟國際上的一個關係這樣可以嗎一直非常審慎的討論事前做很多的研商那麼每一個文字自貞自卓的都相當的謹慎"},{"start":1180.143,"end":1191,"text":"就是要讓國人有信心讓國際也認為我們有保衛自己的決心那部長說國軍不管有沒有打仗隨時都要備戰嘛 對不對"},{"start":1192.336,"end":1214.586,"text":"對 因為我們備戰才能避戰對 我也覺得非常有道理本來我們這個國防本來就是要做那現在兩岸關係現在被你們搞到這麼緊張要增加國防實力我認為沒有人會反對今年國防預算是6470億我們賴總統說要提高到GDP的3%大概會增加1200億左右"},{"start":1217.106,"end":1233.095,"text":"當然我們在黨的立場是這樣合理的可以被監督的當然我們會支持但是你們打算怎麼分配你是多少要買武器多少要增加國軍薪資的待遇"},{"start":1234.135,"end":1257.404,"text":"跟委員報告,我想大概國防的預算支出大概是就三大塊嘛一塊是人員的維持費,一塊是作業維持費還有一塊是這個軍事投資軍事的投資又有不同,也有除了我們國防自主的產能之外也有軍購,也有商購所以這些部分我們都是依照我們作戰的實際需要"},{"start":1258.524,"end":1284.858,"text":"來進行這個相關的這些軍事投資那作業維持的部分因為中國的侵擾我想這個作業維持也日益增加我想我們也需要這些零附件、油料的這些籌貨那人員維持的部分我想我們也在進行一些待遇調整的方案這些方案也順我行政院行政院正在審議當中好,那你們提的你們有提版本了嗎?國民黨提了一個對吧?國民黨提了一個"},{"start":1287.438,"end":1313.712,"text":"軍人待遇改革法案從薪資加給福利津貼方面直接入法保障因為要提升國防最重要的是人你買再多的武器沒有人是沒有用的沒有人使用是沒用的那志願役呢國民黨提的版本是二等兵直接加薪兩萬那你們研議的會比這個多還是比這個少我想行政院在審議之後我們會對外公布但是我們不認為這樣子的一個"},{"start":1314.946,"end":1338.88,"text":"我一直在講這種因為現在據這個立委有提出來的這些喊價式的這種待遇調整的方法我想並沒有考慮到整個這一個我覺得是這樣子你們既然有版本要趕快提出來是在還沒有進入三讀之前我們政黨裡面我們大家好好的來協商好好討論這件事情我覺得這是有必要的不要倉促到時候你們不談等到我們提出來你們又要提復議"},{"start":1340.961,"end":1356.278,"text":"院長應該會盡快來核定這個國防部已經把完整詳細的整個方案這個案子都送到行政院行政院基本上會尊重國防部我也會同意國防部送來的案子那大概什麼時候會停我們完成內部很快"},{"start":1357.823,"end":1384.565,"text":"這個之外我們對軍人的一些包括他的保險我們也會做增加這是另案的我們是希望提升軍人的待遇目的是要有人那當然我們也有精兵的一個政策然後我們大概也算了一下大概改善軍人待遇初估大概多了大概是440多億我覺得這非常重要而且我們部裡面還有行政院這邊能夠納入考量"},{"start":1385.981,"end":1413.852,"text":"我們衡量國家的需求對軍人的待遇 國家的需求對於整體的戰力因為我們要從整體的不只財政預渡好啦 那我期待你們的版本出來好不好謝謝 謝謝部長那再來就是賴總統的17項策略裡面部長請回 請回主委也請回那個就台灣與中國的經貿關係進行策略性的結構調整那目前我們要怎麼調整"},{"start":1414.875,"end":1442.888,"text":"他的原則就是以強本固抬風險管理作為原則性那對雙方的人流物流金流跟技術必須要做到必要跟有序的調整就是一切要以強化我們自己的經濟安全為出發怎麼調整嗎 你要終止ECFA還是要做進出國管制還是要廢除兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":1444.619,"end":1469.331,"text":"大體的講是內控跟外控我們對輸出到國外的你知道我們台灣一年出口中國跟香港的這個金額是多少嗎一定相當龐大 對所以我們更要小心 不能過度的依賴性出去的各種關於高科技的產品更應該在符合我們現在國家安全的需求底下做強烈要求對 我現在要講的一個現實的問題就是說"},{"start":1472.335,"end":1501.027,"text":"台灣進出口到中國和香港每年是4,898億左右那我講的是去年的數據那今年呢出口美國的金額是3,560億左右那到日本的金額是8,200億台灣出口東協10國的金額大概是2,800億左右那如果我們現在限縮了我們跟中國的一個交流的時候我們每年出口到"},{"start":1502.045,"end":1525.111,"text":"大陸香港的這些業者他們未來怎麼辦所以台灣也要分散我們的市場我們出去到中國的很多的產品他都是加工之後又到世界各地去那也許世界各地也有更適合的生產基地你這些配套想好了沒有因為我看你們的動作就是要跟對岸來宗旨你要叫這些人"},{"start":1525.831,"end":1542.963,"text":"我們只是要做必要跟有序的調整你要給人家一個方向你知道嗎你不是說現在講然後讓大家覺得沒有明天我到底要不要繼續投資我到底要怎麼樣我要移到哪邊去我這個行業到底要不要繼續做那我的未來怎麼辦我的貸款怎麼辦我的小孩怎麼辦"},{"start":1543.783,"end":1566.698,"text":"不僅我們的廠商會到世界布局,我們也會另外有相當完整的條件希望國外的廠商也到台灣來設廠投資那國內的廠商對在國內的投資也會持續的加碼這個都是現在已經看到的現象部長,你們如果最終的目的是要兩岸停止交流我請你們直接告訴人民,讓我們的人民有所準備"},{"start":1567.738,"end":1591.62,"text":"這樣不確定性會讓人民不知所措兩岸必須做健康有序的交流你們的健康標準是什麼要保障台灣人主體的安全國防的安全跟經濟的安全跟人民的安全這個怎麼認定我覺得很模糊你知道嗎你不能選擇一把大刀在人家頭上什麼時候要往下砍不知道我高興我就不砍我不高興你就砍下來"},{"start":1592.95,"end":1618.961,"text":"那你叫人民未來何去何從他要怎麼樣無所適從你懂我意思嗎我們就是要避免這種大刀架在我們脖子上不是你現在是別人的大刀架在我們頭上沒錯那我們自己又拿了一把大刀又壓在我們人民身上不是嗎沒有我們沒有把大刀壓在自己身上所以我覺得你們的政策既然要做講清楚跟人民講清楚你未來要怎麼樣這樣可以嗎"},{"start":1620.161,"end":1644.967,"text":"總統在3月13號的財事當中這17項是非常清楚的只是我們一一要把它落實到部會裡面去當這個完善的周延的計畫出來之後會不會就具以執行那時候再請委員執照跟支持那我再來問台積電赴美投資我們這邊說是1000億美金川普說是2000億這個你們掌握的到底是多少"},{"start":1646.696,"end":1670.959,"text":"我們所知道是原來就已經有650億再加上1000億是這個1650億院長跟我們的總統也都說過要跟留台灣要把台積電最先進的製程留在台灣但是投審會說那個N1的規定只有針對中國其他地方是沒設限的對吧"},{"start":1673.146,"end":1683.676,"text":"報告委員台積電我們當然是尊重他的投資規劃魏哲嘉董事長也表明台積電對台灣的投資是不變的"},{"start":1684.795,"end":1707.061,"text":"像是高雄的兩奈米廠、嘉義先進的封裝廠這些投資都不會改變未來也會持續擴大的投資對台灣的半導體業來講仍然是全球最完善的半導體供應體系我知道你未來是怎麼管控這個高階技術、高階人才不會過去"},{"start":1708.202,"end":1734.514,"text":"過幾天不是他們州長要過來嗎他們到美國去投資必須要經過經濟部的投審會的許可所以我們會堅持把最新的技術留在台留在這個國內那這個裡面當然你怎麼堅持是最新你們剛剛講了我記得部長前幾天有講過就是說最新的技術明年是1.6奈米是不會過去嘛對不對"},{"start":1737.198,"end":1754.369,"text":"台積電他們現在會開始開發1.6奈米的技術但是這個技術還沒有到生產線還沒有辦法到生產線所以我相信他在美國他要生產線上面要去布局1.6奈米這個是"},{"start":1756.61,"end":1774.498,"text":"不夠內行的說法也不夠專業的這個說法所以就是不會去嘛所以他會去的一定是在國內已經有成績的這個部分才會過去我們每年到那個台積電的他的"},{"start":1775.635,"end":1795.844,"text":"基本支出是大概381到420億美元如果美國的這個設置工廠它要到這個1000億美元的話我們算過大概一年要250億美元那會影響我們台灣的這個整個的進度嗎?這個不會你保證不會?你說一年會有一個廠嗎?對吧?"},{"start":1797.386,"end":1819.811,"text":"他不會影響這個是台積電他到美國也是他全球佈局的一個部分他主要是要接近他美國的客戶那麼這個美國的客戶呢比較先進的這個製程都在美國所以他台積電去那裡呢主要是服務他的客戶好時間也到了啦好謝謝院長謝謝謝謝委員謝謝邱正軍委員質詢也謝謝卓院長相關部會首長的備詢報案會現在議場"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":377,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時51分）主席好，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長好。院長，今天一開始我想跟你討論的是我們苗栗孩子的受教權問題。我們看一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是上個月開學的時候，我到苗栗后庄國小看孩子們上課的狀況，1.8公頃的學校，最合適的班級數大概是40班，后庄國小現在是51班，院長你能想像超收11班，又是滿班的一個學校，孩子們上課的教室跟下課的活動空間是有多擁擠嗎？剛剛有看到吧！"],["卓院長榮泰：這裡有51班喔？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，51班。我們后庄國小的位置就在科學園區的旁邊。好，你們看一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是一個小型的室內運動區域，后庄國小的位置就在科學園區旁邊，竹科的員工上個月已經有17萬8,633人，比起5年前增加了2萬5,000人左右，竹科飽和帶來的外溢效應，讓很多在新竹上班的人選擇搬到苗栗的竹南跟頭份。當然，我們非常歡迎他們到苗栗來，我們在2022年時已成為少數人口移入正成長的縣市，更值得一提的是，去年2月到今年2月，一年之間，設籍在頭份、竹南的人口增加了2,117人，近3年大概增加了6,000人，每一年以1%的速度成長，這在整個臺灣來講是非常少見的。","現在竹南、頭份市區的國中、國小幾乎都是額滿，我們面臨的是小孩子根本沒有教室上課，接下來桃竹苗大矽谷計畫的推動，預估未來會增加14萬個工作機會，可預期的就是孩子的受教問題。其實桃竹苗大矽谷計畫當初在核定的時候，配套就包含要確保水電無虞、交通順暢、醫療充足、員工居住跟子女教育的部分，沒錯吧？這些當初都涵蓋在裡面。以南科來說，增加臺南、高雄、嘉義、屏東園區，每一個園區裡都有一所實驗學校，我們不是說別人有，我們苗栗也要有，但是苗栗確實有這個需要。","我們再看一下剛剛的照片，這是2月中我們開的一個座談會，來參與的都是家長，人數是爆滿的，我們希望因應園區的發展，小孩子的就讀需求，可以在竹南科學園區裡設立實驗中學，目前我們鍾縣長也已經找好土地了，這是縣府的地，大概9公頃左右，地方出地、中央出錢，一起合作。那天的座談會教育部有派人來參加，教育部目前應該是沒有什麼問題，現在就等院長跟國科會這邊點頭，不知道院長的意思呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：非常感謝邱委員如此關心教育的問題，能夠關心下一代是我們必須該做的重要事情。隨著科學園區的增加、產業的發展，我們需要更多的教育設施空間，所以我想無論從硬體、軟體、師資各方面實質地增加都是必須要的，而且就像委員所說的，這已經不光是教育部的問題了，我們的實驗中學，尤其是在科學園區的實驗中學都是由國科會全面規劃、執行的，所以國科會吳主委也一直在討論這個事情，我也相當地瞭解，對於目前的進度、過程，就由吳主委答復。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我們請吳主委講一下。"],["吳主任委員誠文：科學園區實驗中學需要在園區籌設計畫報院、核定暨取得學校用地產權後，才能夠進行評估規劃。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在縣府已經找到地啦！"],["吳主任委員誠文：是。目前整個產業的需求還沒有很明確，因為原來竹南科學園區的這個土地，上次院長去看過了，現在縣政府所規劃的3塊地，其實都不符合現在產業的需求。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想問主委，大矽谷計畫是不是確定會推動？"],["卓院長榮泰：已經核定了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：已經核定了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：既然確定……"],["吳主任委員誠文：但是地方政府要配合。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然，我們絕對會配合，但既然要推動，小孩子受教育的問題是不是要優先考量，而且要提早進行？因為孩子的成長只有一次，他沒有辦法重來，也不能等，他錯過這次機會，如果慢了一年，他的未來就被影響到了。"],["吳主任委員誠文：比較快速的方法就是趕快在既有的學校擴充。"],["邱委員鎮軍：問題是剛剛我講了，它那個土地只有1.8公頃。"],["吳主任委員誠文：因為要成立科學園區的實驗中學有它既定的辦法，我想委員非常清楚，我們要做很完善的調查。"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，部長也跟鍾縣長有過接觸、有討論過，目前部長在教育部裡面的作業，我請部長來說明。"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，謝謝委員關心竹南、竹苗地區從小學、國中到高中教育機會的提供跟教育品質上的確保。確實我們也看到竹竹苗這3個縣市因為科學園區的進駐，人口是在增加的，所以我們今年1月對目前竹苗的8所高中，我們已經撥了3,507萬，先用來增班，這是一個馬上、立即可以改善的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我跟你報告，你可能……"],["鄭部長英耀：跟委員報告，另外我們也核定，就是從今年開始，苗栗縣頭份國中西側校舍的20間教室工程經費有一億七千多萬，將近8,000萬，希望能趕快用來增設學校。另外還有苗栗的大同高中跟興華高中，我們也給予經費的補助，希望能快速去做校舍的增建、學校的成立……"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，你講的沒錯，這是一般的校舍，其實當初中央補助了非常多的實驗教室、實驗室，現在這些實驗室根本就已經被拿來當教室在用，所以學生連實驗室都沒有，這個部分本來就是要解決。我們提的實驗中學，它的目的其實是在，因為我們有很多園區員工的子女有受教的問題，一般來說，如果我們現在不成立，搬到苗栗縣來的這些園區員工的子女，未來要到新竹去念實驗中學是不可能的，他是進不去的，所以我們希望把人才留在苗栗，才會跟中央提這件事情，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：不過我們已經跟縣政府討論過這件事了，我們竹科管理局也是很積極在協助的，我們希望苗栗縣政府趕快先進行擴建的用地規劃，這個規劃還是要符合我們的產業需求，這個規劃完成以後，我們竹科管理局會在取得產權之後，土地規劃完、用地取得以後……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不能先核定、先准它嗎？它就可以先前作業了，不是嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：要先前作業，現在可行性評估正在做，可是那3塊用地其實並不符合我們所講的重要產業的需求，還是希望……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這是另外一個層面，我們當然會加緊腳步跟中央好好配合，我現在講的是這個部分不能拿出來先做事前的準備嗎？讓我們後續才能夠知道我們下一步要做什麼。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，剛剛吳主委說現在的土地評估起來不是很適合，在此也要拜託委員，您對地方比較了解，可以看看有沒有更好的地點，我們可以再繼續評估。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我這樣問好了，請問院長、主委及部長，你們支不支持在大矽谷計畫的竹南園區裡面增設一所實驗中學？你支持嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們評估確定有這個需求，我們當然一定會盡力來協助。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得你現在答應我就好了嘛！"],["吳主任委員誠文：我們還是要評估，因為用地取得要搭配新的用地……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道啦！我的意思是說，既然大矽谷計畫確定要實施，為什麼學校……"],["卓院長榮泰：我認為趨勢上我們應該要提早因應準備，但是如果沒有找到合適的地點、大小、位置的土地，那也是沒有辦法執行，所以趕快來找找看適合的地點何在，我們就來進行評估，看看如何來設置怎麼樣規模、內容的學校，但地點要先有著落。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好的，土地的問題我們來解決，我們會解決孩子受教的問題，對不對？"],["吳主任委員誠文：是的，桃竹苗大矽谷的發展計畫已經在行政院通過了，科學園區管理局會積極來協助。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你看嘉科、屏科實中在111年核定，113年8月就開始招生了，它現在還沒蓋好啊！當然土地的問題我也知道，我們回去加緊腳步，請主委、部長及院長大家一起努力來推動這件事情，好嗎？"],["吳主任委員誠文：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝，部長請回。","接下來我再請問院長，賴清德總統上周宣布17項策略之後，人民及各行各業普遍都感覺到臺灣的民主變了調，雖然總統沒有宣布戰爭，也沒有宣布戒嚴，但是對外就是進入了準戰爭時期，對內則是實施類戒嚴。賴總統說中國大陸威脅嚴重，請問我們有召開或者是參加緊急的因應會議嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：開了幾次？"],["卓院長榮泰：兩次都有參加。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長，你認為臺灣是一個民主國家嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然是嘛！我也認同你剛剛講的，但是我覺得賴政府正在複製一段歷史──一樣的反共、一樣的反民族主義口號、一樣的製造內部跟外部的敵人、一樣的利用媒體抹黑的手段、一樣的借題發揮，面對不同的聲音一樣的貼標籤。然後要做司法的變革，一樣的政治目的，目的就是要消滅在野黨，你有沒有覺得這個似曾相識啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：絕非如此，我們只是在面對境外敵對勢力對我們不斷併吞跟滲透的意圖時，築起一道更高、更堅固自我防衛的高牆，這絕對不是準戰爭的行為，這是自我防衛的決心、自我防衛的責任。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得現在賴政府所做的事情跟希特勒非常相似。"],["卓院長榮泰：完全不一樣。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們的總統講一句話，就要恢復軍事審判，這個不是獨裁嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然不是。針對軍事審判，我再次說明只有針對現役軍人的5種軍事犯罪，包括叛亂、利敵、洩密、廢弛職務以及抗命，軍人不能有這5種行為，有這5種行為就是軍事審判。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那天總統公開宣布了30分鐘，臺灣人民可能有一半以上就開始擔心以後的生活，按照民主法治的精神，恢復軍事審判制度要不要修法？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會啟動所有相關的修法，包括軍法官人事條例，我們也要由更有經驗跟民主素養的軍法官來處理這些案子。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們的草案擬了沒有？"],["卓院長榮泰：正在處理啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：什麼時候要提呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：我希望我們在一個月以內把整個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：提了之後會跟社會溝通嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，我們現在所有的立法過程都必須跟社會、也要跟大院溝通。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啦！不要總統一宣布你們就配合著修法，我認為爭取社會的認同更重要。"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會啟動相關必要的程序。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這才是民主國家，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我想我們在研擬的過程當中，都要跟社會各界保持溝通，也要跟相關的專業人士進行諮商。"],["邱委員鎮軍：根據中華民國憲法，總統可以宣戰，也可以宣布戒嚴、公布法令、發布命令，但是我沒有聽過總統一句話就可以把現有的法律直接改掉。要不要恢復軍事審判，這是一個嚴肅的問題，院長，我們可以認真對待這件事情嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：朝野的委員在過去也都有這樣相關的提案，所以不是總統的一句話。總統宣示一個政策出來之後，民主國家按照民主的程序來完成所有相關立法跟配套，這是現在我們必須馬上開始要著手的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我希望跟各界……"],["顧部長立雄：立法也都要經過立法院的同意，不是我們這樣一下宣布就可以進行，因為我們研擬完之後，跟專業人士諮商、跟社會溝通之後，還是要送大院來審議。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我希望你們講的要照做。你們常常在喊的是「沒有討論就沒有民主」，我希望你們不要一邊講一種話，回來又講另外一種話。我們當然不允許國軍裡面有人做出危害國家安危的事情，但是你們現在對外一致的回答，讓民眾覺得你在告訴大家，馬英九任內，兩岸溝通非常良好、非常和平；蔡英文任內，也還算穩定，所以沒有重啟軍法的必要；賴總統一上任之後，軍紀就變渙散，就準備開戰了，現在是這個原因嗎？外面的解讀是這樣。"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，院長已經一再地說明了，我想我們就已經限縮為現役軍人犯軍人職務上之犯罪，這跟戒嚴沒有任何的關聯，國軍的防衛作戰……"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，我再問你，你過去是支持廢除軍事法庭的，你要為你過去主張的審判制度道歉嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們現在要的是重新打造一個新的、符合公平審判原則跟正當法律原則的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，您的意思是2013年當時您還是顧立雄律師的時候，您的思慮不周、倉卒行事、魯莽而廢除的軍事審判是錯的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想當時的軍事審判制度有違憲的地方，有不符合公平法院設計的地方……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那為什麼那個時候不改呢？那個時候你為什麼不改而要廢呢？"],["顧部長立雄：當時我並不是國防部長。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你現在擔任了，你就要廢了，要重開軍事審判制度？"],["顧部長立雄：但是我現在擔任，我當然有這個職責讓軍事審判是合於憲法的意旨的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為現在的司法跟檢調普遍都不太讓人民信任，更何況是完全在威權的軍隊裡。軍事審判要不要恢復，這是一個嚴肅的問題，如果……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，很多民主國家都有軍事審判的制度，而當時我們……"],["邱委員鎮軍：其實我們的立場一直沒有認為要把它廢除，我們只是說這個東西當然可以更透明，這是當初國民黨一貫的立場。當初說要廢的是你、是你們民進黨，現在說要恢復的也是民進黨，神也是你們，鬼也是你們，立場反覆，讓人民沒有辦法苟同，叫那些當初為了洪仲丘的案子而號召上街頭的24萬人情何以堪！"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們回憶當時是因為內在的因素、因為凌虐的事件，軍中人權被忽略了，所以內在的因素經過種種社會的反映，是馬前總統宣布廢除了軍事審判，今天我們面對的是外在的威脅……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以時空背景……"],["卓院長榮泰：因為內部的因素，我們已經完整地保存了人權跟保存軍中人權，未來我們也會有更有經驗、更有民主、更有法律素養的軍法官來審理，所以沒有內在因素的問題，我們面對的是外在的威脅。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你現在的解釋就是以前跟現在的時空背景是不一樣的，對不對？"],["卓院長榮泰：是不一樣的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：以前追求的是安居樂業、以兩岸和平為主軸，現在你說追求兩岸和平是溫柔的投降，是這樣……"],["卓院長榮泰：如果我說的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：在我看來……"],["卓院長榮泰：我說斯斯有兩種，和平也有兩種，一種是國家要夠強，一種是束手投降，我們選擇的當然是國家夠強。"],["邱委員鎮軍：在我看來，這是掌權者無視人命的倔強。"],["卓院長榮泰：就是保障國人才必須這麼做。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你還記得賴清德總統上任的時候，有一個廣告宣傳的影片，他是上了一部轎車，對吧？可是我現在看起來，他當選之後是不是上錯車了，他開到火車了，不會轉彎直直走？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們開一部往和平終站的車，但是我們每天受到軍機、軍艦的威脅，在臺灣環繞，不是從今天開始，也不是從520開始。"],["邱委員鎮軍：最後，我跟院長講，你的內閣裡面有很多失言、造謠，甚至當側翼的這些官員，你們可以用很多的政治語言去粉飾太平，但是總統對外講的話會牽動國家的生死存亡，也會連帶著讓2,300萬人民的生命、財產安全受到影響，我希望以後你們能夠更審慎來討論兩岸關係及跟國際上的關係，可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：一直非常審慎的討論，事前做了很多研商，每一個文字都字斟句酌的相當謹慎，就是要讓國人有信心，讓國際也認為我們有保衛自己的決心。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長說國軍不管有沒有打仗，隨時都要備戰，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：對，因為我們備戰才能避戰。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，當然我也覺得非常有道理，我們的國防本來就要做，現在兩岸關係被你們搞到這麼緊張，我認為沒有人會反對要增加國防實力，今年的國防預算是6,470億，賴總統說要提高到GDP的3%，大概會增加1,200億左右，當然在野黨的立場是，合理可以被監督的我們會支持。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是你們打算怎麼分配？多少要買武器，多少要增加國軍的薪資待遇？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，國防的預算支出大概是三大塊，一塊是人員的維持費、一塊作業維持費，還有一塊是軍事投資，軍事投資又有不同，除了我們國防自主的產能之外，也有軍購、也有商購，所以這些部分我們都是依照作戰的實際需要來進行相關的軍事投資。作業維持的部分，因為中國的侵擾，我想作業維持也日益增加，我們也需要這些零附件、油料的籌獲；人員維持的部分，我們也在進行一些待遇調整方案，這些方案也送到行政院了，行政院正在審議當中。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們有提版本了嗎？國民黨提了一個，對吧？國民黨提了一個軍人待遇改革法案，從薪資加給、福利津貼方面直接入法保障，因為要提升國防最重要的是人，你買再多的武器，沒有人使用是沒有用的。針對志願役，國民黨提的版本是二等兵直接加薪兩萬，你們研議的版本會比這個多，還是比這個少？"],["顧部長立雄：在行政院審議之後，我們會對外公布，但是我們不認為這樣子的方案……我一直在講的是，現在據立委提出來的這些喊價式的待遇調整方法，並沒有考慮到整個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得是這樣子，你們既然有版本要趕快提出來。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：在沒有進入三讀之前，各政黨大家好好的來協商，好好討論這件事情，我覺得這是有必要的，不要倉促，到時候你們不談，等到我們提出來，你們又要提覆議，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：院長應該會儘快來核定。"],["卓院長榮泰：國防部已經把完整詳細的整個方案都送到行政院，行政院基本上會尊重國防部，我也會同意國防部送來的案子。"],["邱委員鎮軍：大概什麼時候會提？"],["卓院長榮泰：只要我們完成內部程序，很快，除此之外，我們對軍人的保險也會增加，這是另案的，已經核定了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們希望提升軍人的待遇，目的是要有人，當然我們也要有精兵政策，我們也算了一下，改善軍人待遇粗估大概多了四百四十多億，我覺得這非常重要，請部裡面還有行政院能夠納入考量，好不好？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們衡量國家的需求，對軍人的待遇、國家的需求以及整體的戰力。"],["顧部長立雄：因為我們要從整體來看，不只財政挹注，還要從整體衡平來考量。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我期待你們的版本出來，好不好？謝謝部長。再來，賴總統的17項策略裡面，就臺灣與中國的經貿關係進行策略性的結構調整，目前我們要怎麼調整？"],["卓院長榮泰：它的原則就是以「強本固臺、風險管理」作為原則性，對雙方的人流、物流……"],["邱委員鎮軍：是限縮兩岸的活動嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是限縮。對兩岸雙邊的人流、物流、金流跟技術，必須要做到必要跟有序的調整，就是一切要以強化我們自己的經濟安全為出發。"],["邱委員鎮軍：怎麼調整？你要終止ECFA，還是要做進出國管制？還是要廢除兩岸人民關係條例？"],["卓院長榮泰：大體的講是內控跟外控，我們對輸出到國外的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，你知道臺灣一年出口中國跟香港的金額是多少嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：一定相當龐大，對。所以我們更要小心，第一個，不能過度的依賴性……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊。我跟你講是4兆8,000億……"],["卓院長榮泰：出去的各種關於高科技的產品，更應該在符合我們現在國家安全的需求底下做強烈要求。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我現在要講的一個現實問題，臺灣進出口到中國、香港，每年是4兆8,198億左右，我講的是去年的數據；今年出口美國的金額是3兆5,600億左右，到日本的金額是8,200億，臺灣出口東協十國的金額大概是2兆8,000億左右。如果我們現在限縮跟中國交流，我們每年進出口到大陸、香港的這些業者，未來怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：所以臺灣也要分散我們的市場，我們出去到中國的很多產品，都是加工之後又到世界各地去，也許世界各地有更適合的生產基地，我們可以直接過去。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你這些配套想好了沒有？因為我看你們的動作，就是要跟對岸來終止啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：我們只是要做必要跟有序的調整。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你要叫這些人怎麼樣去調整，你要給人家一個方向，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不是現在講，讓大家覺得沒有明天，我到底要不要繼續投資？我到底要怎麼樣？我要移到哪邊去？這個行業到底要不要繼續做？我的未來怎麼辦？我的貸款怎麼辦？我的小孩怎麼辦？"],["卓院長榮泰：不僅我們的廠商會到世界布局，我們也會另外有相當完整的條件，希望國外廠商也到臺灣來設廠投資，國內廠商對國內的投資也會持續加碼，這個都是現在已經看到的現象。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！部長，你們如果最終目的是要兩岸停止交流，我請你們直接告訴人民，讓我們的人民有所準備，這樣的不確定性會讓人民不知所措。"],["卓院長榮泰：兩岸必須做健康有序的交流，我們只是做一些必要的交流。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們的「健康」標準是什麼？是因人而異嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：「健康」是要保障臺灣主體的安全、國防的安全、經濟的安全跟人民的安全。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個怎麼認定？我覺得很模糊，你知道嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：不會、不會很模糊。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不能懸著一把大刀在人家頭上，什麼時候要往下砍，不知道，我高興就不砍，我不高興就砍下來，你叫人民未來何去何從？他要怎麼辦，無所適從，你懂我意思嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們就是要避免這種大刀架在我們脖子上啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，現在是別人的大刀架在我們頭上，沒錯！我們自己又拿了一把大刀壓在人民身上，不是嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：沒有，我們沒有把大刀壓在自己身上，委員誤會了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我覺得你們的政策既然要做，就跟人民講清楚，你未來要怎麼樣，這樣可以嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：總統在3月13號的裁示當中，這17項是非常清楚的，只是我們一一要把它落實到部會裡面，當完善、周延的計畫出來之後，各部會具體執行，那時候再請委員指教跟支持。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。我再來問台積電赴美投資，我們這邊說是1,000億美金，川普說是2,000億，你們掌握的到底是多少？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們所知道的是原來就已經有650億，再加上1,000億，是1,650億。"],["邱委員鎮軍：院長跟我們的總統也都說過要根留臺灣，要把台積電最先進的製程留在臺灣，但是投審會說「N-1」的規定只有針對中國，其他地方是沒設限的，對吧？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們當然是尊重台積電的投資規劃，魏哲家董事長也表明台積電對臺灣的投資是不變的，像是高雄的兩奈米廠、嘉義先進的封裝廠，這些投資都不會改變，未來也會持續擴大投資，對臺灣的半導體業來講，仍然是全球最完善的半導體供應體系。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道，但你未來怎麼管控高階技術、高階人才不會過去？過幾天，不是他們州長要過來嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：他們到美國去投資，必須要經過經濟部投審會的許可，所以我們會堅持把最新的技術留在國內，這個裡面，當然也許別人會想說……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你怎麼堅持？最新……你們剛剛講的，我記得部長前幾天有講過，就是說最新的技術，明年1.6奈米是不會過去嘛！對吧？是這樣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：台積電現在會開始開發1.6奈米的技術，但是這個技術還沒有到生產線……"],["邱委員鎮軍：還沒成熟。"],["郭部長智輝：還沒有辦法到生產線，所以我相信它在美國，在生產線上面要去布局1.6奈米，這個是不夠內行的說法，也不夠專業的說法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以就是不會去嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我再請問一下，部長……"],["郭部長智輝：所以一定是在國內已經有成績的部分才會過去。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，每年台積電的基本支出是大概380億到420億美元，如果美國設置工廠要到1,000億美元的話，我們算過大概一年要250億美元，會影響臺灣整個的進度嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個不會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你保證不會？你說一年會有一個廠嘛！對吧？生產線……"],["郭部長智輝：它不會影響，台積電到美國也是全球布局的一個部分，它主要是要接近美國的客戶，美國的客戶比較先進的製程都在美國，所以台積電去那裡主要是服務它的客戶。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，時間也到了，謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員質詢，也謝謝卓院長、相關部會首長的備詢。","報告院會，現在議場二樓旁聽的是遠從屏東電器裝修職業工會的好朋友蒞臨立法院，我們熱情歡迎。現在在我們議場右邊的是來自中華民國拳擊協會的武林高手，熱情歡迎。","接下來，請登記第35位謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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院長好 我們請行政院左院長麻煩再請左院長備選"},{"start":21.648,"end":38.761,"text":"本席一直長期關心行政院對於性別平等政策的一些政策從過去頒布的行政院性別平等政策綱領到去年行政院公布的性平數考核有11個部會連續兩年列一等或不列等我想說我們對性別議題是非常重視"},{"start":42.023,"end":59.489,"text":"那我想昨天有一個新聞有一個時事啊因為沒有放PPT上我跟院長直接報告院長你也有注意到昨天一個新聞就是這個執政黨的總召啊他是認為說媽媽就應該回去當家庭主婦那我不知道說院長你對於這樣子的言論或這樣子的看法你有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":60.592,"end":87.965,"text":"對不起 媽媽應該回媽媽就應該回歸家庭當家庭主婦昨天有一位這個執政黨的立法院黨團總召在開記者會的時候針對了台中市長盧秀燕嘛因為盧秀燕市長的這個綽號大家都叫盧媽媽 媽媽市長那所以柯建民總召就說這個媽媽就應該回歸家庭回去當家庭主婦我不知道院長有沒有掌握到這個新聞那他講這樣的話院長你對於這樣的性別議題這樣的性別議事有什麼樣的想法"},{"start":90.189,"end":108.442,"text":"這或許是柯總召對他母親的愛的回憶吧我的確這麼說啦我說每個人媽媽的定義不一樣有的媽媽對他母親就是這樣的感覺他說他不一定是在這個這個女性表現這麼優異的時候所有的時代但是我們不能剝奪一個人他對他媽媽的"},{"start":109.799,"end":125.436,"text":"沒錯 那你覺得他可以指涉別人別人的媽媽去做別的什麼事情嗎他有權利去定義別人的母親 別人的媽媽應該扮演什麼樣的角色嗎那我在問柯總統他有在指涉哪一位他有講 他指名道姓啊他指名道姓是魯秀妍啊"},{"start":126.055,"end":143.121,"text":"那我要講說今天我想問針對性別議題我想這邊也有資料啦因為行政院過去提供給本席的包含各部會3D機關所屬的委員會政府捐助或出資超過50%的財團法人及國民事業董事與監視性別比例相關資料"},{"start":144.241,"end":172.415,"text":"我今天特別提出來我也是要提醒院長以行政院本院的這個達成所謂的三分之一的單一性別的比例來講的話行政院本院的達成率只有43.24%所以我想在這個數據上面我想還是差強人意所以我也希望藉由這個事件來提醒說我們行政院作為這個國家一級行政機關應該要以身作則把這樣的性別議題要重視我想"},{"start":172.955,"end":193.805,"text":"如果院長願意帶頭重視的話那我想我們的民意代表們就比較不容易去做這樣的發言好不好 院長謝謝委員的提醒我也常常自己在提醒自己我們有所不足的地方那麼一定要按照我們過去所說以及我們應該做的要來盡快的逐步達到好 謝謝院長我們一起為性別一點的努力"},{"start":194.545,"end":207.509,"text":"好那接下來我們進入今天的主題我想院長看到最近的新聞提到說不只電價我想水價好像也在討論說要來調漲那台水公司的意思說目前看到新聞稿說現在每賣一度電會虧2.45元2024年的稅後虧損39.49億那2025年"},{"start":212.951,"end":229.62,"text":"預估今年會再虧損59.3億那合計起來將近會虧損100億所以可能有在討論說水價要調漲那我要請教說其實我們從這個台水公司2024年公布的永續報告書裡面來看到其實在這個2019年到2023年的損益表裡面"},{"start":231.801,"end":260.7,"text":"在2019到2022年這段時間我想台水公司的這個損益這個虧損並沒有明顯的上升是直到2022年到2023年之後才產生嚴重的虧損那甚至2023年2024年跟近年預計的2025年都會有虧損的問題我想問一下我們院長也可以請教一下部長到底為什麼水公司在這幾年的這兩三年的虧損突然的增加那增加之後是不是真的要調漲水價"},{"start":264.664,"end":276.757,"text":"這幾年我們因為有一些新的作為包括再生水的製造 包括一些海水氮化廠海水氮化廠以目前為止 譬如以澎湖為例"},{"start":277.498,"end":306.947,"text":"我們要照顧這個澎湖的這個居民所以我們賣給他的水價是全國統一的但是我們的製造的這個成本是差不多將近10倍所以因為這個需求這個極端氣候的改變讓我們現在的這個氣候變化非常的大但是我們我想院長體恤所有的國人的這個水跟電的價格所以水價我們到目前為止31年都沒有漲過這我知道"},{"start":307.467,"end":335.476,"text":"那我們的這個成本現在的成本因為改變很多海水淡化或者這個水資源的投入這個成本就升高了那麼導致於我們台水公司在這幾年成本確實因為這個氣候改變然後我們要維持這個當大家喝到好的水沒關係 我請教一下我也請教一下院長安部長像比如說海水淡化廠那還有包含說我們各地的這些水利工程"},{"start":336.396,"end":358.822,"text":"這個預算到底是用水公司的錢在做還是用政府的公務預算在執行我們的這個水公司當然有配合工程但我說錢從哪裡出比如你剛提到像海水淡化廠或者是我們各地的淨水廠或者是我們這些輸水的這些管線"},{"start":360.143,"end":384.065,"text":"各地的水利工程相關的這個費用這一部分很大的部分當然是公共建設但是接管回來以後變成是我們台水要配合它所以我們一樣要付出很高的成本我們現在的水基本上那個海水進來的可能是公共建設"},{"start":384.986,"end":400.319,"text":"但是進到我台水的水處理廠以後的成本是屬於我台水的我大概處理一噸的水要七八十塊錢但是我只能賣十塊錢這個是我們非常大的負擔"},{"start":402.04,"end":424.627,"text":"那現在因為我還是跟委員報告因為極端氣候嘛所以那個水什麼時候會下大雨什麼時候我們現在又不能夠去抽取地下水所以這個造成我們這個成本非常的高就要打斷你一下不好意思喔就是說其實你提到極端氣候但是我們看到這兩年的水情啊就我剛剛提到的過去從2019到2022年中年還發生過乾旱喔但是2019到2022年的這段時間台水公司的這個財報裡面看起來的虧損是不嚴重的"},{"start":431.129,"end":457.961,"text":"或是幾乎沒有虧損但是反而到2022年之後我想降雨都非常穩定嘛每年都我看經濟部臉書也常講說今年的這個水庫沒問題中部沒問題南部沒問題水水沒問題那但是在這種情況下面水需要調整我想民眾沒辦法理解啦所以我是不是可以請你們再說明一下到底哪個部分的成本增加了所以你們必須調整我們大概是譬如說這個水管老舊送水的部分所以我們要更新嘛"},{"start":458.621,"end":474.036,"text":"不更新的話突然間這個水管爆了啦年久失修的部分其實還蠻多的啦所以我們水價沒有辦法調整我們的成本不斷的在增加我們要維護讓我們的所有的國人用水方便水龍頭整個就有水這樣喔這是新聞主觀的事情"},{"start":476.738,"end":496.942,"text":"所以麻煩大院能夠同意我們當我們如果能夠提出來這個水能夠調整價格那讓大家能夠隨時就能夠喝到好的水隨時要用水方便的話其實我們現在這個水價確實是偏低的好沒關係 我們就等你們的報告啦因為我想台水商會的這個大說明人事也會增加"},{"start":499.844,"end":508.102,"text":"設備的更新 設備的維護 設備的採購都會增加那我們現在一度水平均下來一度水是十塊錢一度水是一公噸"},{"start":509.062,"end":536.037,"text":"一公噸是1000cc的1000瓶才10塊錢確實是便宜的如果合理的調整對員工的士氣以及鼓勵大家節約用水應該有正面的敗局院長謝謝 院長我想在調調水價之前我想因為目前還沒有看到詳細的報告我想台水公司也還在擬定當中我想希望你們要跟國人交代清楚為什麼這兩年就我剛剛提到的2022年之後反而虧損增加到底哪個環節出問題我想這是希望我們會做詳細的說明"},{"start":537.398,"end":562.789,"text":"明確聲明那當然水價談完之後當然大家最關注的還是即將來的電價上漲的原因嘛電價上漲我想這個原因在講說是國際燃料價格大漲但是我們看到這個全球的這些這個能源價格的費用我想這兩年烏俄戰爭之後2024年2025年結束之後還沒結束啦但是這兩年2024跟2025的部分我想這個能源價格其實還是下降很多很多比起"},{"start":563.909,"end":583.805,"text":"正在戰爭的當下2021、2022、2023的時候我想下降非常多所以每次說橋長價格就是說是因為國際燃料價格上漲我想一般民眾多數人看到這個數字跟這個趨勢一般黨是比較難接受的那如果我們從這個台電的發電結構的成本來看我想這個表你們也看了非常多次了"},{"start":584.645,"end":604.153,"text":"的確在那幾年啦的確我們的這個燃氣不管是台電自發或者是購物典禮的確都有稍微上漲但是我想最影響最大的可能還是我們的光電成本或是它的風電成本我們可以從我特別把它mark出來用黃色的底子把它放出來"},{"start":604.993,"end":623.109,"text":"風力發電我們外購的購入電源風力發電成本到這個113年的這個自編預算裡面是6.5平均成本是6.59太陽光電過距離就是5.74那現在降到4.87還是高有下降但還是很高那另外一個有趣的而且無法"},{"start":623.729,"end":641.295,"text":"大家會覺得奇怪說但像自發的太陽光電你的成本是3.94你購物的卻是4.87中間有將近一塊錢的價差這個部分是不是可以請經濟部說明一下為什麼會有這樣子的成本的變動不一樣的問題那如果這個成本能夠下降的話是不是就有機會電價不用調漲"},{"start":645.479,"end":665.231,"text":"電價的調漲當然是反映成本這是第一個目的但是我們會不會調整電價不是我們經濟部的計算就能夠調整電價而是由電價審議委員參著所有的產業跟所有民生的需求以後他來定出來一個價格"},{"start":666.252,"end":686.317,"text":"但是台電為什麼現在的虧損確實是累積過去這幾年來因為烏鴉戰爭因為整個燃料的價格上來政府為了體恤國人所以我們在民生的部分有動漲產業的部分其實我們也調控了"},{"start":686.917,"end":710.485,"text":"所以在這個累積下來的都是在補貼讓電價不漲的在那幾年但是這幾年我們雖然得到大院的同意補助了三千億但是我們實際在那幾年是六千億的這個成本的付出所以這個我們現在持續的在請大院能夠同意來撥補一千億是在於撥補我們的財務面"},{"start":712.105,"end":734.434,"text":"那我們當然台電反省我們的創電成本您剛才所說的創電的成本確實是我們在考量的我們如何來調適讓它的價格能夠穩定這個高成本的部分我們滿足需要的客人部長你剛剛提到過去累積的虧損我們看到目前的數字你剛剛講6000多億我看那個4429"},{"start":740.757,"end":755.227,"text":"我們看到的資料是先429億累積虧損是429億那去年不管是在追加預算還是今年在省所謂的114年總預算裡面在院長跟部長的任內你們提到了去年提出來的數字是2000嘛"},{"start":756.147,"end":778.572,"text":"你們本來說如果給你2000那可能這個兩年內店家不會上漲但是我們如果就數字來看數字如果累積虧損4429億那假設一切都順利兩黨三黨大家都非常和諧的通過了最佳預算也通過了總預算撥補了2100進去台電那你還是有2429億的虧損那2429億的虧損之外呢我們也看到今年1月的這個財報台電的財報我們再次看一樣我們就數字論數字嘛"},{"start":785.074,"end":798.719,"text":"光是今年一月的財報的部分,我想一月還不算用電的高峰一般來講我們認知商量不是用電高峰但是光一月如果含發電成本,你的虧損一月份而已又增加了112億的虧損112億的虧損裡面,其中太陽光電虧損了5.8億風力發電虧損58億外購的燃氣虧損17億,燃煤虧損7.9億等等的"},{"start":811.224,"end":835.962,"text":"唯一沒有虧損的是什麼呢?大概是核能發電,發電不多但它是唯一有盈餘的,盈餘大概7億多然後水力發電當然非常非常少啦那這兩個都是有盈餘的所以如果按照現在這種人員成本結構我們常常講嘛,因為你已經虧損了那想辦法是開源和節流那開源當然就透過可能預算的波幅是開源漲電價是開源但是節流就我們提到啦,如果今天"},{"start":836.542,"end":842.063,"text":"我想我們這個整體的能源的政策我們除了多元的發展以外我們還有一個節能的部分節能的部分我們希望能夠讓大家能夠正確的來使用好的電"},{"start":863.007,"end":881.937,"text":"所以我們希望靠節能這樣然後來協助我們台電能夠在經營上面能夠面對他的客戶的轉型然後協助他們用的電是具有可以支援的那個節能當然是要做啦但是我後面有一張圖會跟你講說因為我們的綠電是要賣給所謂的R1-100的這些需求的"},{"start":893.263,"end":915.903,"text":"雖然這個發電的成本高了一點但是那個是客人需要的就是說我們台灣因為是出口的國家所以你到歐盟的國家幾乎都是一定要用這個綠電你剛剛在說的這個核電的部分它在歐盟是不被接受的它只是一個乾淨是一個潔淨的能源但是到歐盟是不行的"},{"start":916.283,"end":928.937,"text":"歐盟他就是要Green Energy所以我們還是要發展這個綠電給這個我們國內的廠商有助於他做出口這個部分請委員能夠了解虧損的部分不是只有綠電虧損當然你說你要賣R100然後賣給這些綠電廠他們需要這個樣的電"},{"start":936.044,"end":959.046,"text":"所以回到你的財報上我是看不出來說對台電公司的財務有明顯改善財報的表現跟委員報告財報的表現是根據會計法他做這樣的一個表現當然如果委員對這方面有興趣我們當然可以這個據實的跟委員做一個詳細的報告也許委員可以執政哪一些地方我們可以去improve"},{"start":959.326,"end":977.936,"text":"我相信我今天要讓台電能夠好好變成一個恢復到過去好的公司我有很多的管理構面從產銷 人發 推行到Logistics我通通能夠來幫助他降低成本這一部分就是不是只有能源政策才能夠解決這個問題"},{"start":978.996,"end":996.69,"text":"而且我們的能源真的非常地明確 如果委員支持 我們都歡迎討論我要支持什麼 我要支持希望你們要比照全球的趨勢 成本要下降嘛我們看一下 部長不好意思齁 這個因為時間真的不多 我們有去慢慢討論我們可以看到一下全球的這個趨勢啦 我們從這個"},{"start":999.392,"end":1025.834,"text":"再次能跟總署看到的數字從2010年到2023年的數字全球的光電它的成本是理論上下降90%那離岸風電的理論上成本平均下來下降63%但反觀台灣其實我們下降的幅度幾乎沒有這樣的幅度坦白說我們現在是用很高昂的價格在採購或在購買外購這些綠電的成本報告委員我想每一個人對資料取樣的方式不太一樣"},{"start":1026.855,"end":1044.338,"text":"那如果說委員您上面有寫這個IRENA的資料我們會來參考一下然後來檢視我們目前到底為什麼跟這個我們目前實際運作的成本不如那委員您所指教的這個部分不是 不是指教啦 我希望說提供"},{"start":1044.918,"end":1070.695,"text":"公開資訊嘛因為這個是對於全球人比其他先進國家的成本為什麼會比較高因為台灣的這個區域啊我們台灣的區域我們的地理地理區域是事實上建制的成本都是比其他這個所謂大的這個這個大的島譬如說你到澳洲澳洲這麼大的一個島然後他發展太陽能光電有沙漠的地方發展太陽光電那個成本非常非常的低"},{"start":1071.716,"end":1089.682,"text":"那我們譬如說在做這個陸域風電或者做這個離岸風電也是一樣因為我們的這個水底的資源不太一樣所以我的發電的成本一定高於歐洲的平均成本我們是不是就要來部長你這樣講我也同意所以我們是不是就要很坦誠的跟民眾告知說我們因為"},{"start":1090.662,"end":1110.186,"text":"現在就是因為要發展再生能源所以我的電價就要上漲啊不要每次都講一些什麼為了照顧民生啊因為藍白卡預算啊因為什麼奇怪的原因所以電價上漲確實如果是如同部長所說的因為我們的地理環境限制所以我不管發展光電或發展風電我的成本就是這麼高那這個成本最終還是要回饋到電價上面"},{"start":1110.686,"end":1125.993,"text":"如果你要坦白說你要發展這個事情報告委員所以我們為什麼在2030年定下來我再生能源從現在的20%提到30%主要還是因應國內出口廠商出口到歐盟相關的廠商他們的需求"},{"start":1126.874,"end":1156.145,"text":"我們現在20%努力在建置到明年我要讓這個這個再生能源到20%但是2030年我們要滿足到30%也就是說2050年我要把現在的這個你剛剛提到說是為了廠你剛剛提到說是為了我們廠商出口的這個這個需求啦那如果是這樣的話那你漲民生電價不就沒道理了嗎因為對一般民眾來講這是你出口廠商的利益啊那你對一般民生來講你卻漲我一般人使用的民生電價那我想這是有點本末倒置啦好不好"},{"start":1158.185,"end":1180.091,"text":"對民生的部分 民生他既然不需要用到完全純綠電所以我們當然在這個售價上面 我們會有一些不同的價格好 再來 部長你提到這個電力不足 院長也清楚我們剛剛上一個 詹律師我也提到 我們最近看到新聞說菲律賓買電 你的目標價格是每度4塊錢"},{"start":1181.691,"end":1184.794,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會在這裡再次澄清我們那一份報告基本上是在做可行性分析的報告"},{"start":1207.523,"end":1232.534,"text":"那麼我們在做可行性分析以後確定技術面可行然後我們接著會探討風險會探討風險那我想這個所以你現在探討而已嘛還沒有要做是不是我們現在還在評估啊然後接著我們會實地的去這個survey然後看看成本是不是如這個評估報告裡面可以做得到"},{"start":1233.214,"end":1250.228,"text":"那麼以上都做到以後我們會鼓勵國內的廠商我們把它整合變成國家隊讓他去做大面積的這個重點部長我先確定一下你的目標你的風險或是你各方面的評估你的四塊錢是目標嗎我再跟你講"},{"start":1250.948,"end":1280.148,"text":"五塊五的這個所謂傳送回來這個店的資料是指日本他們目前從北海道送到這個九州的這個店前但是我要問最終成本我要問對我國對台電或對經濟部你去菲律賓採所謂做這個事情你的最終目標價是多少錢我最終目標價再次在這裡跟你報告就是四塊錢到岸下四塊錢超過四塊錢四塊錢到家我想這樣子啦"},{"start":1281.164,"end":1293.898,"text":"就一樣看如果回到剛剛醫院的財報來看的話以現階段來講4塊錢大概是我們外購的燃氣4.05元還有灌腸水利3.97元按照這個價錢來講還是虧損的啊不是啊對台電來講還是虧損的啊報告委員我是綠電喔回來是綠電喔所以綠電的價格是比較高的"},{"start":1302.593,"end":1308.338,"text":"綠電價格是可以賣比較高的賣給企業還是賣給一般 賣給台電公司賣企業 你那個綠電回來是直接是一樣透過台電的機制去賣綠電給企業還是有其他的方式直接給企業"},{"start":1318.749,"end":1345.255,"text":"我這是解決企業的問題嘛企業才有需要綠電一般的民眾他不需要綠電所以你目標價格是說他這個電回來之後是四塊錢的綠電有這樣的四塊錢的價格賣給相關企業是不是你的計畫是這樣子不是不是我們四塊錢以後還要加上我們台電的電網成本輸電的成本所以我的賣的價格一定是高於四塊錢"},{"start":1349.205,"end":1372.899,"text":"我的進口到岸價格是4塊錢嘛然後送到你的家裡面這個輸配電的成本我要再加上去嘛我台電不可能虧錢我說4塊錢才賣出來不可能的事情因為基本上我們從你們這個能源署或是經濟部能源署提供的全國電力工序報告裡面來講台灣的用電量是持續在成長"},{"start":1373.499,"end":1388.09,"text":"那按照目前的這個能源結構來說按照目前的發電量來講可能是不夠我們都擔心說會不會缺電那不然是這個過去美國商會、歐洲商會甚至現在連AIT自己都出來講了嘛就是說對於台灣不發展核能他覺得"},{"start":1389.511,"end":1409.845,"text":"有很大的疑慮或對他們覺得為什麼不發展他們美國願意提供相關的技術所以問一下院長院長自己也提過說如果在各界的技術面中能達成的情況下面台灣可能可以重新考慮所謂新核能那我不知道院長現在對這個所謂新核能的定義或是說對於這個發展核電的可行性現在的態度是什麼新核能的技術"},{"start":1410.799,"end":1419.092,"text":"很多國家或是一些大型的廠商他們有的研發大家通常講的是小型的核電廠或者是那個"},{"start":1420.745,"end":1441.753,"text":"融合這個各種的技術但是目前都還沒有到非常很熟的商轉的階段但是我們一直在關注這個方向的發展那我們也保持跟他們開放態度共同來研究的這種可能性我想就目前的狀況啦2025就現在啦就所謂的即將要達到非核家園了嘛"},{"start":1442.273,"end":1470.589,"text":"台灣要即將做到非核家園那非核家園的那一刻開始我想主要的主力發電就剩下可能就是火力跟所謂的再生能源但目前來講我們很明顯看到我們再生能源的這個供電量就是不足以應付大多數民生所以很多時候必須用依靠火力發電所以在這種小型所謂的新型核能還沒有成熟之前我們是不是就真的要把所有的核電廠來把它關掉"},{"start":1472.19,"end":1491.103,"text":"只剩下火力發電跟再生能源這兩種的主要和管法規定5月17號2號機必須處理這是現在的規定但我們在依照規定在在在執行在同時呢我們也對於現在新開發的多元的發展綠能以及我們在"},{"start":1491.543,"end":1512.869,"text":"逐步在推進的以氣換煤的電廠的更新還有一些包括民間的電廠能夠如續來進到我們發電的總數裡面來那這樣算起來我們到2032年的供電量還是足夠的這個民間電廠我想就現階段多數民間電廠是不是也都是以火力發電為主"},{"start":1514.21,"end":1539.907,"text":"也有氣發電 燃氣發電還有我們現在最新的跟委員報告我們現在的地熱也是都是透過明謙跟這個中友還有台電這個國營的機構來努力在發展這個小水利也好啊或者是地熱也好這個屬於本土的這個能源我們現在擔心的是啦這個今年2025非核家園"},{"start":1540.387,"end":1565.284,"text":"真的說核電廠停機之後本來所謂屬於核能電廠穩定供應電的這一塊未來是用什麼來取代未來這幾年在你所謂的新型小型核能新核能發展完成之前的這段空窗期我們我國的這個電力到底是用什麼來取代是不是就真的都是用多數都是用所謂的燃氣或燃煤發電來取代的我們很多燃氣的電廠會逐步的在上上升"},{"start":1565.933,"end":1594.94,"text":"好 這個我覺得這個一般我想這個還是要希望這個行政院要去好好的調整一下能源政策啦因為這個我想 不管是一般民眾安全無虞的供電意思是我們對人民的承諾我也說也是台灣對全世界的承諾好 最後我想這個時間不夠了三四分鐘這個我跟院長討論一下這個政治問題 口水問題這個院長上禮拜有來到台中來做相關的演說那提到說對台中有很多的建設非常照顧但是我們如果按照"},{"start":1595.64,"end":1601.195,"text":"以拿出台中跟高雄這兩個人口差不多的直轄市來比較的話因為才會看到"},{"start":1602.847,"end":1631.653,"text":"提到了台中三大建設 比如說會展中心 巨蛋 綠美圖我想這個金額很明顯的 多數都地方來負擔那對比到高雄的幾個 像類似的場館不管會展中心 他們的展覽館 主場館流行音樂中心或衛文化中心等等的幾乎看起來全部都是由中央來負擔那從台中港這部分來講台中港的戶外復建計畫 中央負擔90.9億那再來是高雄的港規建設我想這個數字加起來 五六百億至少"},{"start":1632.293,"end":1654.512,"text":"那從這個機場也是高雄小港機場的新國際航廈計畫經過高達八百八十億那我這個台中機場呢我還一直擔心我是不是查錯資料看錯資料我們還特別去調閱華新道工程六點八整體的台中機場目前的改善工程九點九九合計起來的十六十七億左右對比那八百八十億我想這個落差"},{"start":1655.413,"end":1669.848,"text":"很大還有幾個國道建設我想那天部長在台中也提到非常多對於國道建設的努力但是一個國道7號就615億台中捷運正在蓋的準備要蓋的藍線還有還沒有蓋完的綠線"},{"start":1670.829,"end":1699.22,"text":"對比到我們高雄的捷運紅線橘線跟已經準備要蓋的捷運黃線跟正在規劃的環川輕軌我想政府的中央政府的出資比例跟地方負擔的比例等等的我想都列在上面我想今天為什麼這個市長也好或是我們這些民營代表也好會常常會去講這個事情我並不是說中央完全沒有給台中建設有 也感謝包含說我剛剛提到的國道包含說捷運建設等等的但是這個數字就擺在眼前啦這個比例就擺在眼前啦"},{"start":1699.56,"end":1729.3,"text":"而我們台中是作為全台灣人口第二大的城市拿這樣子的中央的資源相對比較少的情況下我難免會發出不平之民我難免會覺得相對不多感嘛所以我想問一下這個院長這個未來即將這個新的這個會期開始了嘛那這樣台中到底接下來有什麼樣的重大建設中央願意全力支持讓我們台中能夠符合相關的這個作為全台灣第二大城市我們的規模人這麼多交通只有一條捷運目前為止一條而已"},{"start":1730.02,"end":1754.719,"text":"那這個怎麼解決我們都要共同努力啊在均衡台灣的理念之下不會像過去縱北青南也不會像過去縱北青南不注重中央縱北青南也要注重中央所以中間這個部分我們已經在我們六大區域產業的生活計畫區裡面把它列為精密"},{"start":1755.479,"end":1782.633,"text":"精密智慧的新核心台中維中心的精密智慧的新核心跟科技都把它連結在一起當然要串起很多的交通建設這樣才能夠讓基礎建設襯托整個六大產業生活區OK 院長跟部長也是給個方向啦對我們台中市民而言部長最了解台中我知道啊 我跟他以前同事啊"},{"start":1783.664,"end":1791.49,"text":"報告委員其實中央對台中絕對不會不注重我在台中的時候我也有說像東風快速道路"},{"start":1792.509,"end":1816.981,"text":"中央出了差不多70%的預算這個是台中市的建設但是內政部跟交通部大家一起努力出了70%的預算這個部分其實中央很努力在做還有就是台74縣74縣其實都在台中裡面包含建制包含現在的維養全部都是中央在努力台74縣在台中很多的民眾大家每天都在使用其實中央能做的只要台中有需求"},{"start":1817.438,"end":1837.836,"text":"一定都會努力好 最後幾秒鐘啦我提醒一下就是捷運的紅線跟捷運橘線你盡快核定好 謝謝黃建華委員長謝謝主委長 各部會所長的備詢 謝謝現在我們下一位登記第三三位林代化委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":258,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（10時3分）院長好，我們請行政院卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：院長好。院長，本席一直長期關心行政院對於性別平等的一些政策，從過去頒布的行政院性別平等政策綱領，再到去年行政院公布的性平會的考核，有11個部會連續兩年列乙等或不列等，我要講的是，我們其實對性別議題非常的重視。昨天有一則時事新聞，因為沒有放在PPT上，我就直接跟院長報告。院長，你有注意到昨天的新聞，就是執政黨的總召認為，媽媽就應該回去當家庭主婦，我不知道院長，你對於這樣子的言論或是這樣的看法，你有什麼樣的想法？"],["卓院長榮泰：對不起，媽媽應該回？"],["黃委員健豪：媽媽就應該回歸家庭當家庭主婦。昨天有一位執政黨的立法院黨團總召在開記者會的時候，針對臺中市長盧秀燕，因為盧秀燕市長的綽號，大家都叫他盧媽媽、媽媽市長，所以柯建銘總召就說，媽媽就應該回歸家庭，回去當家庭主婦。我不知道院長有沒有掌握到這個新聞？他講這樣的話，院長，你對於這樣的性別議題、這樣的性別意識有什麼樣的想法？"],["卓院長榮泰：這或許是柯總召對他母親的愛的回憶吧！"],["黃委員健豪：的確，每個人對媽媽的定義不一樣，有的人的媽媽……"],["卓院長榮泰：他對他母親就是這樣的感覺，但不一定是在女性表現這麼優異的時代，但是我們不能剝奪一個人他對他媽媽的……"],["黃委員健豪：沒錯，那你覺得他可以指涉別人的媽媽去做別的什麼事情嗎？他有權力去定義別人的母親、別人的媽媽應該扮演什麼樣的角色嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：那我再問問柯總召他有在指涉哪一位。"],["黃委員健豪：他有講，他指名道姓是盧秀燕。今天我想針對性別議題，我這邊也有資料，因為行政院過去提供給本席的，包含各部會、三級機關所屬的委員會、政府捐助或出資超過百分之五十的財團法人及國營事業董事與監事性別比例的相關資料，我今天特別提出來也是要提醒院長，以行政院本院達成所謂的三分之一的單一性別比例來講，行政院本院的達成率只有43.24%，在這個數據上面我想還是差強人意，所以我也希望藉由這個事件來提醒我們行政院，作為國家一級行政機關應該要以身作則，要重視這樣的性別議題。如果院長願意帶頭重視的話，我想我們的民意代表們就比較不容易去做這樣的發言，好不好？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員的提醒，我也常常自己在提醒自己我們有所不足的地方，一定要按照我們過去所說以及我們應該做的，要儘快地逐步達到。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝院長，我們一起為性別議題來努力。接下來我們進入今天的主題，院長，我們看到最近的新聞有提到不只電價，水價好像也在討論說要來調漲，台水公司的意思是，目前看到新聞稿是說，現在每賣1度電會虧2.45元，2024年稅後虧損為39.49億，而2025年，預估今年會再虧損59.3億，合計起來將近會虧損100億，所以可能有在討論說水價要調漲。那我要請教，我們從台水公司2024年公布的永續報告書裡面可以看到，在2019年到2023年的損益表裡面，在2019到2022年這段時間，我想台水公司的虧損並沒有明顯的上升，是直到2022年到2023年之後才產生嚴重的虧損，甚至2023年、2024年跟今年預計的2025年都會有虧損的問題。我想問一下院長，也可以請教一下部長，到底為什麼水公司在這幾年、這兩、三年的虧損會突然增加？在增加之後是不是真的要調漲水價？"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這幾年我們因為有一些新的作為，包括再生水的製造，包括一些海水淡化廠，海水淡化廠到目前為止，譬如說以澎湖為例，我們要照顧澎湖的居民，所以我們賣給他的水價是全國統一的，但是我們製造的成本是差不多將近十倍，所以因為這個需求、極端氣候的改變，讓我們現在的氣候變化非常的大，但是我想院長體恤所有國人的水跟電的價格，所以水價到目前為止，我們31年都沒有漲過。"],["黃委員健豪：這我知道。"],["郭部長智輝：而我們的成本、現在的成本因為改變很多，海水淡化或者水資源的投入成本都升高，導致於我們台水公司在這幾年成本確實因為氣候改變，然後我們要維持讓大家喝到好的水，所以我們……"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係，我請教一下院長和部長，比如說海水淡化廠，還有包含我們各地的這些水利工程，這個預算到底是用水公司的錢在做，還是用政府的公務預算在執行？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的水公司當然有配合工程。"],["黃委員健豪：我是說錢從哪裡出？比如說你剛剛提到的海水淡化廠，或者是我們各地的淨水場，或者是我們輸水的這些管線、各地的水利工程相關的費用，包含說我有看到經濟部網站上面常常……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這一部分、很大的部分當然是公共建設，但是接管回來以後，變成是台水要配合它，所以我們一樣要付出很高的成本。我們現在的水，基本上海水進來的可能是公共建設，但是進到我台水的水處理廠以後的，成本是屬於我台水的。我大概處理一噸的水要七、八十塊錢，但是我只能夠賣10塊錢，這個是我們非常大的負擔。我還是跟委員報告，因為現在是極端氣候，我們也不知道什麼時候會下大雨，我們現在又不能夠去抽取地下水，所以造成我們的成本非常的高……"],["黃委員健豪：部長，還是要打斷你一下，不好意思。其實你提到極端氣候，但是我們看到這兩年的水情，就我剛剛提到的，過去從2019到2022年中間還發生過乾旱，但是2019到2022年這段時間，台水公司的財報看起來虧損是不嚴重的或幾乎沒有虧損，反而到2022年之後降雨都非常穩定，我看經濟部臉書也常常講，今年的水庫沒問題、中部沒問題、南部沒問題，水情沒問題，但是在這種情況下水價卻需要調漲，我想民眾是沒辦法理解的。所以是不是可以請你們再說明，到底哪個部分的成本增加了？所以你們必須調漲水價。"],["郭部長智輝：譬如說水管老舊送水的部分，我們要更新，不更新的話，突然間這個水管爆了，因為年久失修的部分其實還蠻多的。所以如果水價沒有辦法調整，我們的成本卻不斷在增加，我們又要維護讓所有的國人用水方便，水龍頭打開就有水，這是成本很高的事情，所以麻煩大院能夠同意我們，讓水能夠調整價格，如果要讓大家能夠隨時喝到好的水、隨時要用水方便的話，其實現在的水價確實是偏低的。"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係，我們就等你們的報告，因為我想台水要明確的會跟大家說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，人事也會增加，設備的更新、設備的維護、設備的採購都會增加，我們現在一度水平均是10塊錢，一度水是一公噸，一公噸是1,000cc的1,000瓶才10塊錢，確實是便宜了，如果合理的調整，對員工的士氣及鼓勵大家節約用水應該有正面的帶動。"],["黃委員健豪：院長，謝謝。在調整水價之前，因為目前還沒有看到詳細的報告，我想台水公司也還在擬定當中，希望你們要跟國人交代清楚，為什麼這兩年，就我剛剛提到的2022年之後反而虧損增加，到底哪個環節出問題？我想這是希望明確說明……"],["卓院長榮泰：我們會做詳細的說明和報告。"],["黃委員健豪：水價談完之後，當然大家最關注的還是即將電價上漲的原因，電價上漲的原因說是因為國際燃料價格大漲，但是我們看到全球能源價格的費用，這兩年烏俄戰爭之後，2024年、2025年這兩年的部分，我想能源價格其實是下降很多、很多的……"],["卓院長榮泰：沒錯。"],["黃委員健豪：比起正在戰爭的當下2021、2022、2023年的時候下降非常多，所以每次要調漲價格，就說是因為國際燃料價格上漲，一般民眾、多數人看到這個數字跟這個趨勢，一般來講是比較難接受的。如果我們從台電的發電結構成本來看，這個表你們也看非常多次了，在那幾年我們的燃氣，不管是台電自發或購入電力的確都有稍微上漲，但是影響最大的可能還是我們的光電成本或是風電成本，我們可以從外購，即所謂購入電力的風力發電成本來看，到113年的自編預算裡面平均成本是6.59；太陽光電過去的確是5.74，現在降到4.87，還是高，有下降但還是很高；另外一個有趣的而且大家會覺得奇怪，像自發的太陽光電成本是3.94，購入的卻是4.87，中間有將近一塊錢的價差，這個部分是不是可以請經濟部說明一下，為什麼會有這樣子成本變動不一樣的問題？如果這個成本能夠下降的話，電價是不是就有機會不用調漲？"],["郭部長智輝：電價的調漲當然是反映成本，這是第一個目的。但是我們會不會調整電價，不是我們經濟部的計算就能夠調整電價，而是由電價審議委員參酌所有的產業跟所有民生的需求以後訂出來一個價格。而台電現在的虧損確實是累積過去這幾年來，因為烏俄戰爭、因為整個燃料價格上來，政府為了體恤國人，所以在民生的部分有凍漲，那產業的部分其實我們也調控了，所以累積下來的都是在補貼讓電價不漲的，但是幾年了，我們雖然得到大院的同意補助了3,000億，但是那幾年實際是付出6,000億的成本。所以我們現在持續的在請大院能夠同意撥補1,000億，是在於撥補財務面。當然台電要去反省創電成本，您剛才所說的創電成本確實是我們在考量的，我們如何來調適，讓它的價格能夠穩定，這個高成本的部分，我們滿足需要的客人，但是我們儘量來調節……"],["黃委員健豪：部長，你剛剛提到過去累積的虧損是六千多億，我們看到的資料是4,429億，不管是去年追加預算，還是今年在審的114年總預算，在院長跟部長的任內，去年提出來的數字是2,000億，你們本來說如果給你們2,000億，那可能這兩年內電價不會上漲，但是如果就數字來看數字，累積虧損4,429億，假設一切都順利，三黨都非常和諧的通過了追加預算，也通過了總預算，撥補了2,000億給台電，那你還是有2,429億的虧損，除了2,429億的虧損之外，我們看到今年1月台電的財報，一樣就數字論數字，1月一般來講在我們的認知上還不是用電高峰，但是1月光發電成本虧損又增加了112億，其中太陽光電虧損了5.8億、風力發電虧損了58億、外購的燃氣虧損了17億、燃煤虧損了7.9億等等，唯一沒有虧損的大概是核能發電，發電不多，但它是唯一有盈餘的，大概七億多，然後水力發電當然非常非常少，這兩個都是有盈餘的。所以如果按照現在這種能源成本結構，我們常常講已經虧損了就要想辦法開源和節流，當然透過預算撥補是開源，漲電價是開源，但是節流，就像部長提到的，如果2,000億給你，然後你兩年不漲價，問題是你的虧損持續在累積耶！如果這個發電成本沒有改變的話……"],["郭部長智輝：我想我們整體的能源政策，除了多元發展以外，還有節能的部分，在節能的部分，我們希望大家能夠正確的來使用好的電，所以，我們希望靠節能來協助台電在經營上能夠面對他的客戶的轉型，然後協助他們用的電具有可以support……"],["黃委員健豪：部長，節能當然是要做啦，但是我後面有一張圖，會跟你講說……"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們這個綠電……"],["黃委員健豪：你們預估用電量持續成長，節能……"],["郭部長智輝：我們的綠電是這樣，我們的綠電是要賣給所謂有RE100需求的，雖然這個發電成本高了一點，但是那是客人需要的，我們臺灣因為是出口的國家，所以到歐盟幾乎都一定要用綠電，你剛剛在說的核電，它在歐盟是不被接受的，它只是一個乾淨的、no carbon的潔淨能源，但是到歐盟是不行的，歐盟就是要green energy，所以我們還是要發展綠電，有助於國內的廠商出口，這個部分請委員能夠了解。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，虧損的部分不是只有綠電虧損，當然你說你要賣給有RE100需要的廠商，但是回到你的財報上，我是看不出來這對台電公司的財務有明顯改善。"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，財報的表現是根據會計法做這樣的表現，如果委員對這方面有興趣，我們當然可以據實跟委員做一個詳細的報告，也許委員可以指正哪一些地方我們可以去improve，我相信我今天要讓台電能夠好好恢復到過去那樣一個好公司，我有很多的管理構面，從產銷人發財……"],["黃委員健豪：部長，我當然……"],["郭部長智輝：我通通能夠來幫助他降低成本，這一部分就是不是只有能源政策才能夠解決這個問題，而且我們的能源政策非常明確……"],["黃委員健豪：成本一定要降低，部長。"],["郭部長智輝：如果委員支持，我們都歡迎討論。"],["黃委員健豪：我要支持什麼？我希望你們要比照全球趨勢，成本要下降。"],["郭部長智輝：第一個，我們並沒有拒絕所有的能源……"],["黃委員健豪：我們看一下，部長不好意思，因為時間真的不多，我們再慢慢討論。可以看到全球的趨勢，我們從再生能源總署看到的數字，從2010年到2023年的數字，全球的光電成本理論上要下降90%，離岸風電成本理論上平均下降63%。但反觀臺灣，其實我們下降的幾乎沒有這樣的幅度，坦白說我們現在是用很高昂的價格在採購或外購這些綠電的成本……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想每一個人對資料取樣的方式不太一樣，您上面有寫是IRENA的資料，我們會參考一下，檢視到底為什麼我們目前實際運作的成本不如委員所指教的這個部分。"],["黃委員健豪：也不是指教，這是公開資訊嘛，全球其他先進國家的成本為什麼會比較低？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，因為臺灣的這個區域，我們的地理區域事實上建置的成本都是比其他所謂大的島，譬如你到澳洲，澳洲這麼大的一個島，它要發展太陽能光電，有沙漠的地方發展太陽能光電，那個成本一定非常非常低。我們譬如在做陸域風電或者離岸風電也是一樣，因為我們水底的資源不太一樣，所以我發電的成本一定高於歐洲的平均成本。"],["黃委員健豪：部長這樣講我也同意，所以我們是不是要很坦誠地只能告知民眾，現在就是因為要發展再生能源，所以電價就要上漲，不要每次都講一些什麼我為了照顧民生、因為藍白砍預算，因為什麼奇怪的原因所以電價上漲。確實，如果如同部長所說的，因為我們的地理環境限制，所以不管發展光電或風電的成本就是這麼高，這個成本最終還是要回歸到電價上面。你要坦白說，如果你要發展這個事情……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，所以我們為什麼在2030年訂下來我再生能源要從現在的20%提到30%，主要還是因應國內出口廠商、出口到歐盟的相關廠商的需求。我們現在20%努力在建置，到明年我要讓再生能源到20%，但是2030年我們要滿足到30%，也就是2050年我要把現在的這……"],["黃委員健豪：你剛剛不斷提到是為了我們廠商出口的需求，如果是這樣的話，那你漲民生電價不就沒道理了嗎？因為對一般民眾來講，這是出口廠商的利益，那對一般民生來講，你卻漲一般人使用的民生電價，我想這是有點本末倒置，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：不會，報告委員，對民生的部分，既然民生不需要用到完全純綠電，所以當然在售價上面我們會有一些不同的價格。"],["黃委員健豪：再來，部長你提到電力不足，院長也清楚，剛剛張嘉郡委員有提到，我們最近看到新聞說菲律賓買電，你的目標價格是每度4塊錢。這個每度4塊錢到底怎麼算出來的，以及有沒有可行性？因為我看到報告說當地的發電成本大約2塊錢，但運輸成本好像是5塊錢，那回來之後怎麼樣接到我們的電網上、相關運輸成本和電網的成本由誰支出？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員給我這個機會在這裡再次澄清，我們那一份報告基本上是在做可行性分析的報告。我們做可行性分析以後，確定技術面可行，然後我們接著會探討風險，我想這個……"],["黃委員健豪：所以你現在是探討而已嘛？還沒有要做，是不是？到底要不要做……"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在還在評估，接著我們會實地survey，然後看看成本是不是如這個評估報告裡面的可以做得到。以上都做到以後，我們會鼓勵國內的廠商到……我們把它整合變成國家隊，讓它去做大面積的種電，大面積種電就可以降低成本。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，我先確定一下你的目標、你的風險或是各方面的評估，你以4塊錢為目標嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我再跟你講，5塊5這個所謂傳送電回來的資料，是指日本他們目前從北海道送到九州的……"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係，那我要問最終成本……"],["郭部長智輝：但是我要跟委員報告……"],["黃委員健豪：我要問對我國、對台電或對經濟部，你去菲律賓所謂做這個事情，你的最終目標價是多少錢？"],["郭部長智輝：再次在這裡跟委員報告，我的最終目標價就是4塊錢、到岸價。超過4塊錢……"],["黃委員健豪：4塊錢、到岸價？如果回到剛剛1月份的財報來看的話，以現階段來講，4塊錢大概就是我們外購的燃氣4.05元，還有慣常水力3.97元，按照這個價錢來講，還是虧損的啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是喔！"],["黃委員健豪：對台電來講還是虧損的啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我是綠電喔！回來是綠電喔！綠電的價格是比較高的！綠電價格是可以賣得比較高的，我們現在……"],["黃委員健豪：賣給企業還是賣給一般？賣給台電公司……"],["郭部長智輝：賣企業，企業才有需要。"],["黃委員健豪：你那個綠電回來是一樣透過台電的機制去賣綠電給企業，還是有其他的方式可以直接給企業？"],["郭部長智輝：我就是為了解決企業的問題嘛！企業才有需要綠電，一般民眾不需要買綠電。"],["黃委員健豪：可是我問的目標價格是，電回來之後是4塊錢的綠電，是以這樣的價格賣給相關企業，是不是？你的計畫是這樣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是、不是，我們4塊錢以後還要加上台電的電網成本、輸電成本，所以我賣的價格一定是高於4塊錢。"],["黃委員健豪：成本呢？你說包含電網在內還是4塊錢嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：就是我的進口到岸價格是4塊錢嘛，然後送到你的家裡面，這個輸配電成本我還要再加上去，台電不可能虧錢，以4塊錢來賣是不可能的事情。"],["黃委員健豪：部長，謝謝。","你剛剛提到節能，根據經濟部能源署提供的全國電力供需報告，臺灣的用電量是持續在成長，按照目前的發電量來講可能是不夠的，我們都擔心會不會缺電，不管是過去美國商會、歐洲商會，甚至現在連AIT自己都出來講了嘛，就是說對於臺灣不發展核能，他們覺得有很大的疑慮，還說他們美國願意提供相關的技術，所以我要問一下院長，院長自己也提過，如果在各種技術面都能達成的情況下，臺灣可能可以重新考慮所謂的新核能，我不知道院長對所謂新核能的定義或是說對於發展核電的可行性，現在的態度是什麼？"],["卓院長榮泰：新核能的技術很多國家或是一些大型廠商有在研發，大家講的通常是小型核電廠或者是核融合，有各種技術，但是目前都還沒有到非常成熟的商轉階段，但是我們一直在關注這個方向的發展，我們也保持開放態度、跟他們共同研究的可能性。"],["黃委員健豪：就目前的狀況，2025年就是現在，也就是說，臺灣即將要做到非核家園了，從非核家園的那一刻開始，我想主力發電可能就剩下火力和再生能源，但目前來講，可以很明顯地看到我們再生能源的供電量就是不足以供應多數民生所需，所以很多時候必須依靠火力發電。在小型、所謂的新型核能還沒有成熟之前，我們是不是就真的要把所有的核電廠關掉，只剩下火力發電跟再生能源這兩種主要的發電方式呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：依照核管法的規定，5月17日核三廠2號機必須除役，這是現在的規定，我們正依照規定在執行，同時我們也對於現在新開發的多元發展綠能，以及逐步在推進以氣換煤的電廠更新，還有一些包括民間電廠能夠如序進到我們的發電總數裡面來，這樣算起來，我們到2032年的供電量還是足夠的。"],["黃委員健豪：現階段多數民間電廠是不是也都是以火力發電為主？"],["卓院長榮泰：也有燃氣發電。"],["黃委員健豪：燃氣發電也是火力的。"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，還有現在最新的地熱也是透過民間跟……"],["黃委員健豪：地熱比例太低了，部長……"],["郭部長智輝：跟中油還有台電等國營機構努力在發展……"],["黃委員健豪：部長，那不是穩定供電的選項啊！"],["郭部長智輝：小水力也好，或者是地熱也好，這個屬於本土的能源……"],["黃委員健豪：我們現在擔心的是，今年2025非核家園所有核電廠真的停機之後，本來屬於核能電廠穩定供應電的這一塊，未來是由什麼來取代？未來這幾年，在你所謂的新型、小型核能、新核能發展完成之前的這段空窗期，我國的電力到底是由什麼來取代？是不是就真的多數都使用燃氣或燃煤來取代了？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們很多燃氣電廠會逐步再上場。"],["黃委員健豪：我想還是希望行政院要好好地調整一下能源政策，因為我想不管是在民眾……"],["卓院長榮泰：安全無虞的供電，一直是我們對人民的承諾，我說也是臺灣對全世界的承諾。"],["黃委員健豪：好。最後我想時間不夠了，三、四分鐘，我跟院長討論一下政治問題、口水問題，院長上禮拜有來到臺中做相關的演說，提到對於臺中有很多的建設，非常照顧，但是我們如果拿出臺中跟高雄這兩個人口差不多的直轄市來比較，院長也看到，提到了臺中三大建設，比如會展中心、巨蛋、綠美圖，我想金額很明顯，多數都由地方來負擔，對比到高雄幾個類似的場館，不管是展覽館、主場館、流行音樂中心或衛武營文化中心等等的，我們看起來幾乎全部都是由中央來負擔。從臺中港這部分來講，臺中港的擴建計畫，中央負擔90.9億，再來是高雄的港區建設，這個數字加起來至少五、六百億。從機場來看也是，高雄小港機場的新國際航廈計畫，金額高達880億，那麼我這個臺中機場，我還一直擔心我是不是查錯資料、看錯資料，我還特別去調閱，滑行道工程6.8億元，整體的臺中機場目前的改善工程9.99億元，合計起來16億、17億左右，對比人家880億，我想落差很大。還有幾個國道建設，那天部長在臺中也提到非常多對於國道建設的這些努力，但是光一個國道七號就615億，臺中捷運準備要蓋的藍線，還有還沒有蓋完的綠線，對比到高雄的捷運紅線、橘線跟已經準備要蓋的捷運黃線，跟正在規劃的環狀輕軌，中央政府的出資比例跟地方負擔的比例等等的，我想都列在上面。今天為什麼市長也好，或是我們這些民意代表也好，常常會去講這些事情，並不是說中央完全沒有給臺中建設，有！也感謝，包含我剛剛說到的國道、包含捷運建設等等的，但是這個數字就擺在眼前、這個比例就擺在眼前，我們臺中市作為全臺灣人口第二大的城市，拿這樣子的中央資源相對比較少的情況下，我難免會發出不平之鳴、我難免會覺得有相對剝奪感。所以我想問一下院長，新的會期開始，未來臺中到底接下來會有什麼樣的重大建設，中央願意全力支持，讓我們臺中能夠符合相應的建設，作為全臺灣第二大城市，我們的規模、人這麼多，交通只有一條捷運，目前為止只有一條而已，這個怎麼解決？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們都要共同努力，在均衡臺灣的理念底下，不會像過去重北輕南，也不會像過去重北輕南，不注重中央、中間……"],["黃委員健豪：忘臺中，我們都忘記臺中。"],["卓院長榮泰：對啊！不能重北輕南，也要注重中央，所以中間這個部分，我們已經在六大區域產業的生活計畫區裡面，把它列為精密智慧的新核心，以臺中為中心的精密智慧的新核心……"],["黃委員健豪：所以我們接下來……"],["卓院長榮泰：以傳統跟科技都把它連結在一起，當然要串起很多的交通建設，這樣才能夠讓基礎建設襯托整個六大產業生活區。"],["黃委員健豪：OK。院長跟部長也是給個方向，對於我們臺中市民而言……"],["卓院長榮泰：部長最了解臺中。"],["黃委員健豪：我知道，我跟他以前是同事。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，其實中央對臺中絕對不會不注重，我在臺中的時候，我也有說像東豐快速道路，中央出了差不多70%的預算，這個是臺中市的建設，但是內政部跟交通部大家一起努力出了70%的預算，這個部分其實中央很努力在做；還有就是臺74線，臺74線其實都在臺中裡面，包含建置、包含現在的維養，全部都是中央在努力，臺74線在臺中很多的民眾大家每天都在使用，其實中央能做的，只要臺中有需求，一定都會努力做，尤其是交通的部分。"],["黃委員健豪：好，最後幾秒鐘，我提醒一下，捷運紅線跟捷運橘線，你儘快核定，幫臺中蓋起來，這樣大家就會沒有話說，好不好？"],["陳部長世凱：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃健豪委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢，謝謝。","下一位登記第33位林岱樺委員之質詢以書面提出，請行政院書面答復，並列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員林岱樺書面質詢：","針對川普政府要求縮小台美貿易逆差，政府宣示擴大對美採購項目中包含天然氣能源採購一事。","針對本次天然氣能源採購，可否結合","1.國氣國運政策，以FOB方式進行採購。","2.要求國籍航商具體提出培育我國籍LNG航運人材方可承攬。","以降低我國天然氣燃料需求，所遭遇在地緣政治影響下之運輸風險。"],["主席：報告院會，我們現在休息15分鐘，休息之後繼續進行質詢，現在休息。","休息（10時34分）","繼續開會（10時50分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","謝龍介","沈伯洋","張智倫","陳雪生"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2025-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00004","1142601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1142601_00004"}}},{"id":"159301","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159301","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1468b0c2f72abc7f70cca0e9b9f306b8192e6bfb57ea0be4b12a1c6f06838ac1b53d9e6741251f855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:47:57 - 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主席有請卓院長"},{"start":23.601,"end":44.151,"text":"院長早 院長辛苦了本席今天要針對國家安全的議題來跟您請問我們知道昨天有一個非常重要的國際論壇那就是玉山論壇那麼玉山論壇當中我們看到許多民主友邦都提出了針對現在全球受到威權國家逼近那麼其實民主陣線是應該要站在一起的"},{"start":44.611,"end":55.02,"text":"那我們來看到就是昨天AIT的這個處長古麗妍也特別提到賴總統就打擊中國長期以來的間諜和影響力的行動所提出之倡議"},{"start":56.687,"end":81.002,"text":"那麼接下來其實我們就可以有機會美國跟台灣有進一步的合作其實這樣的說法剛好切合了日前我們賴清德總統特別去定調那麼中國就是所謂的敵對勢力而且呢中國對於台灣的威脅不論是統戰或是國安的方方面面其實他也具體地點出了包括主權的威脅、間諜行動還有就是透過這個交流以及認知作戰等等"},{"start":86.485,"end":110.383,"text":"但是滿可惜的是昨天在野黨最主要的在野黨就是國民黨竟然說這個賴總統所說的這個幫中國定位為所謂的敵對勢力讓人民陷於危險之中因此他們要發動所謂的反戒嚴公投請問院長你怎麼看自助人助也會得到天助"},{"start":116.982,"end":122.759,"text":"這個就完全展示我們對於防衛我們自己的決心負責跟我們的信心"},{"start":123.769,"end":152.091,"text":"很多友邦或友門國家當他考慮到要維持印太地區是台海的和平穩定的時候台灣當然是最關鍵的一個角色跟地位這種戰略地位我們自己要認清楚也因為這個樣子我們更要珍惜我們在這裡所做的各種努力至於外交的工作我想部長做得非常的好做得非常辛苦但是成就就一直展現出來那請部長來說明一下現在外交對我們的協助"},{"start":154.212,"end":176.549,"text":"部長回答之前我想先問院長啦所以你認為台灣現在戒嚴了嗎?需要反戒嚴公投嗎?我剛剛說過在國內的政黨只有中國國民黨有戒嚴的經驗或許只有他不知道戒嚴的痛苦目前的台灣沒有戒嚴的時空任何條件所以我說他是在一個黑暗的房間裡面找一隻不存在的黑貓"},{"start":177.432,"end":201.196,"text":"好所以說其實台灣如果有戒嚴那還有哪裡來的公投其實我認為這個完全是邏輯錯亂本末倒置我們來看下一張喔那麼其實這個昨天這個假日啊這個民眾看到我們的卓院長揮出光劍希望帶台灣持續向前我先來問一個輕鬆的話題其實蠻多網友都問說光劍哪裡來的"},{"start":204.977,"end":224.298,"text":"也有在野黨說預算都成功了居然還有光劍可以買院長還是有社會正義人士可以把這個他專屬的光劍借給我們用謝謝這位馬可多大師好所以說是有大師出借專業人士出借希望我們拿著光劍是"},{"start":225.427,"end":245.657,"text":"自由與我們同在 民主與我們同在好 正義的原理會與台灣同在但是我知道這個口號國家要安全 台灣要向前我真的覺得非常的重要本席特別整理了就是現在中國滲透的樣態包括在退降裡面吸引退降主親中的政黨"},{"start":247.078,"end":267.295,"text":"國軍裡面有透過地下權裝來吸引國軍來做訊息的交換甚至於洩密在媒體裡面現在有所謂的在地協力者協助中國的榮媒體來做唱和在產業裡面現在媒體也報導了甚至於在華碩工會裡面有中配在裡頭宣揚統戰"},{"start":270.077,"end":298.664,"text":"甚至於連武統都在所不惜那至於僑界有最新的訊息媒體也報導了就是統戰的勢力已經滲透了海外僑社跟中國的組織在做聯動昨天我質詢習家青委員長的時候也特別提到了在海外雙十國慶現在變成是中國也要滲透結合抗戰勝利八十週年這種荒謬的言論另外當然金融界"},{"start":299.184,"end":317.724,"text":"也有所謂的科技的滲透所以我想問一下就是面對這種全方位的滲透總統也宣示了就是要來做正面的因應的時候那麼行政院有跨部會的因應嗎除了國安會議之外"},{"start":318.635,"end":344.074,"text":"我在當時開會的時候我就說我們會要求所有相關的所有的部會一定要列專案來執行而且我會要求要定期的考核 限期的完成所以我們這個禮拜就會開始相關的作業我希望在一定的時間內把17項內容有關的各部會都要訂定出一個未來執行的計畫而且能夠看到它執行的時間"},{"start":344.895,"end":369.869,"text":"好 謝謝這個院長非常明確的答覆就是其實我們這個整個內閣是這個光劍一出要對這個所謂中國的滲透必須要有所作為那下一張我們來看的就是其實我剛剛最後一個提到有關於金融面的問題我不知道院長是不是知道在前一陣子媒體特別報導了有一個"},{"start":371.771,"end":398.254,"text":"從中國的財政部底下進入先持股進入國家的中小企業發展基金這個國家是中國的財政部中國的國家然後再往下到了深圳國中小企業發展私募基金然後這一間公司呢它雖然號稱是新加坡的公司然後來台灣開此公司"},{"start":399.295,"end":428.707,"text":"那麼現在會不會是另外一個就是我們知道資安及國安金融的安全更為重要那麼就是台灣的業者如果跟這間新加坡的公司來他的所謂信用卡的核心關鍵技術那麼會不會變成是一個中國滲透進入台灣的一個方法甚至於成為一個樣板我不知道院長知不知道這樣的一個個案跟案例"},{"start":435.696,"end":452.72,"text":"其實我們在金融監理上面對任何比如說我們金融機構委外我們是不限國家地區我們是全面的有要求他們必須針對這些自動安全的系統有一些規範特別是高風險的地區我們更是要求他們要做"},{"start":453.32,"end":481.805,"text":"像這件事情發生以後我們也全面的去了解國內的金融機構相關的這些的他們執行我們也加強了金融機構的一些安全的這些的控管希望他們能夠持續的把這些強化好所以說目前現在來自新加坡號稱是新加坡但是背後是有中資的影子帶的這樣的一個公司本來要進入台灣的信用卡系統目前"},{"start":483.326,"end":511.669,"text":"還會持續進入嗎?還是其實金管會已經做了一些必要的措施?其實跟委員說明一下其實這件事情呢我們立刻就請他一定要務必要這個清查背後的這些的問題而且他們這個系統根本沒有上線就是而且我們要求說這有沒有資安的風險不是你自己說了算你必須找第三方的公正他們也做出了這樣的一個查核發這個系統並沒有相關的後門安全但是呢"},{"start":512.089,"end":526.169,"text":"這件事情他沒有上線所以這個部分應該是被阻缺的報告委員這家公司的背後的關係系統經濟部已經相當有了解我們請郭部長報告委員我想新加坡上這個"},{"start":528.078,"end":547.844,"text":"類似任何科技這些是不是入資公司經濟部經過調查以後確定新加坡商任何科技公司是具有入資控制力的確實為入資公司所以我們將依兩岸條例第93條之一的規定處以新台幣217萬元的發援"},{"start":551.529,"end":561.894,"text":"所以言下之意確實背後是有中資的影子在裡面我們都知道其實台灣的金融是高度尖利這樣的一間公司我們來看下一張"},{"start":563.473,"end":587.147,"text":"他本身他的合作夥伴就通通都是來自於中國那麼當他來自於中國的時候很可能台灣就是他的下一塊想要前進的部分所以在金融如何來避免所謂非紅供應鏈我們知道我們現在在基礎建設我們在國防安全的部分其實都已經開始強調要去除紅色供應鏈"},{"start":590.569,"end":608.59,"text":"但是在金融系統裡面呢因為其實本席特別去找到2019年其實也發生過受險系統受險的核心系統採用到了中國的相關的技術跟系統所以這個部分"},{"start":609.929,"end":630.404,"text":"它並不是一個偶發事件它其實是一個整體的金融國安的部分所以本席就要請問不論是郭部長或者是彭主委我們在金融系統上面我們的IT防範上面如何來避免紅色供應鏈的入侵現在有個方法嗎比如說這一次這個案子恐怕"},{"start":631.224,"end":645.817,"text":"如果他在申請的時候他是以設立公司那麼設立公司我們可能就不一定會經過投審會的相關的審查而且當時業者也說勘查這一間所謂任何科技他並沒有在我們所謂的"},{"start":647.099,"end":663.142,"text":"紅色供應商裡面所以他就認為他是安全的那麼接下來我們既然發現了這個問題之後想請問部長或是主委有沒有一個方式能夠保障台灣金融系統的安全是 跟委員說明"},{"start":663.672,"end":685.491,"text":"其實我們在過去我們是不限國家地區我們本來就定有金融機構資通系統服務供應鏈風險管理的規範這部分而且我們也會收集相關的案例特別對這些高風險我們已經開始會採取這些動作像這次為例其實我覺得他們警覺性剛開始確實是需要被強化但是我覺得這件事情從表面上來看"},{"start":686.272,"end":700.724,"text":"可能就是我們未來金融業我們要特別透過這個案例呢告訴他們要特別的強化在我剛才要跟委員特別強調我們在金管這個這部分有兩個重點一個是資安一個是只要任何碰觸到客戶資料的部分我們都會"},{"start":701.297,"end":722.862,"text":"做更嚴格的管理 謝謝好 最後本席要建議這個院長那就是喔當我來跟業者詢問的時候他會提到的是他們其實是找不到合適的廠商來做合作那我們都知道台灣是IT大國 科技大國如果一個信用卡的系統又或者是壽險的系統當我們找不到國內MIT的廠商的時候當然國外的"},{"start":728.423,"end":750.754,"text":"其他非中國的國家非紅色供應鏈如果有價格的問題的時候是不是也可以請數位部應該來做一個整合我相信台灣應該做得出來信用卡等所謂資訊相關需要的系統或者是受險所謂保障客戶的這種系統是不是是應該的我們會請跨部會來互相的協助當"},{"start":752.435,"end":769.666,"text":"金融單位有這樣的需求的時候我也請主委來協調跨部會來協助提供必要的資源廠商這樣才能確保我們的資通安的安全好 那因為時間有限我想要跳到我的最後一張PTT那就是我們知道現在有許多的這些公民團體在發起"},{"start":771.787,"end":780.103,"text":"他們屬於自己的罷免權但是從二階的罷免開始其實從一階開始之後不斷地陸續有出現騷擾的行為"},{"start":784.868,"end":805.101,"text":"從3月17號我開始整理這樣一系列一直到去年其實要不就是支持者打人說我是中國人我來鬧場甚至於有志工在路上發禪單就被揮拳然後被當頭K頭然後甚至於是有抄著中國口音的人來鬧場"},{"start":807.54,"end":836.339,"text":"我覺得這是蠻諷刺的啦就是中國連自己的總統都選不出來但是呢卻在台灣滋事那到底他是真的中國人還是台灣人假扮中國人這個恐怕是要由相關的執法單位來做說明但是我要請院長回應的就是台灣是一個自由民主而且受到法律保障的國家雖然國民黨昨天他們在所謂發起"},{"start":837.92,"end":857.511,"text":"公投罷免提案的時候他說要反廢死要還命於民啊但是我們剛剛羅烈看到的這些都是國民黨的支持者我是蠻想呼籲國民黨還命於民之前要不要先還安全於人民難道說台灣民眾自發性的發起他們要"},{"start":858.391,"end":883.072,"text":"展現他們的罷免權卻要被國民黨的支持者來痛打又或者是自稱中國人在台灣這片土地來毆打我們的台灣民眾嗎我覺得這個部分講到這裡我非常的憤怒我也認為院長應該要做一些說明好 政府的責任在保障每一位國民合法行使他國民的參政權利"},{"start":884.4,"end":898.716,"text":"政府的責任也在保障每一場合法的活動所有到場的人人身安全如果有這種滋擾的事件那麼要求我們的警政單位檢調單位一定要負起責任部長在這裡請部長來說明"},{"start":899.377,"end":926.632,"text":"是非常謝謝委員的關心我們已經三令五申包括警政署對於有關安全的部分一定要馬上處理那我們也鼓勵各種罷免的活動合法罷免活動的志工如果碰到這樣狀況的話能夠拍照或是錄音錄影然後到現地的派出所馬上報案那我們依照相關的規定馬上來辦理確保在所有的公民活動上面的安全好謝謝辛苦了"},{"start":927.841,"end":935.011,"text":"好 謝謝林楚瑩委員咨詢 謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢接下來我們請登記第32號"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":224,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時48分）謝謝主席。主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：林委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：院長早，院長辛苦了。本席今天要針對國家安全的議題來跟您請問。我們知道昨天有一個非常重要的國際論壇舉行，也就是玉山論壇。在玉山論壇當中，我們看到許多民主友邦都提出，由於現在全球受到威權國家進逼，所以民主陣線應該更要站在一起。昨天AIT處長谷立言特別提到，賴總統就打擊中國長期以來的間諜和影響力行動所提出之倡議，將使美國跟臺灣可以有機會進一步合作。這樣的說法剛好契合日前賴清德總統特別定調中國就是所謂的敵對勢力！且中國對於臺灣的威脅，不論是統戰或是國安的方方面面，也具體點出包括主權威脅、間諜行動，還有透過交流以及認知作戰等等。滿可惜的是，昨天最主要的在野黨國民黨竟然說，賴總統將中國定位為敵對勢力讓人民陷於危險之中，因此他們要發動反戒嚴公投！請問院長你怎麼看？"],["卓院長榮泰：自助、人助，也會得到天助，這個就是完全展示我們對於防衛自己的決心、負責跟我們的信心。當很多友邦或友盟國家考慮到要維持印太地區、臺海和平穩定的時候，臺灣當然是一個最關鍵的角色跟地位，這種戰略地位我們自己要認清楚。也因為這樣，我們更要珍惜我們在這邊所做的各種努力。至於外交的工作，部長做得非常好，做得非常辛苦，成就也一直展現出來，我請部長說明一下現在外交對我們的協助。"],["林委員楚茵：好，在部長回答之前我想先問院長，你認為臺灣現在戒嚴了嗎？需要反戒嚴公投嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：我剛剛說過，在國內的政黨，只有中國國民黨有戒嚴的經驗，或許只有它不知道戒嚴的痛苦，目前的臺灣沒有任何戒嚴的時空跟條件，所以我說它是在一個黑暗的房間裡面找一隻不存在的黑貓。"],["林委員楚茵：所以說，臺灣如果有戒嚴，哪裡還會有公投呢，我認為這個完全是邏輯錯亂、本末倒置。","再來，這個假日民眾看到我們的卓院長揮出光劍，希望帶臺灣持續向前。我先來問個輕鬆的話題，其實滿多網友都在問：光劍哪裡來的？也有在野黨說：預算都刪光了，居然還有光劍可以買！院長？"],["卓院長榮泰：還是有社會正義人士願意把他專屬的光劍借給我們用，謝謝這位馬可多大師。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以是有大師出借、專業人士出借。"],["卓院長榮泰：他希望我們拿著光劍是自由與我們同在、民主與我們同在。"],["林委員楚茵：好，正義的原力會與臺灣同在，我覺得這個口號「國家要安全、臺灣要向前」真的非常重要。本席特別整理了現在中國滲透的樣態，在退將方面，他們吸引退將組「親中政黨」；在國軍方面，透過地下錢莊吸引國軍作訊息的交換甚至洩密；在媒體方面，現在有所謂的在地協力者協助中國的融媒體來做唱和；在產業方面，現在媒體也報導，在華碩工會裡有中配在裡面宣揚統戰，甚至連武統都在所不惜；至於僑界方面，最新的訊息，媒體也報導了，統戰勢力已經滲透海外僑社參與中國組織活動，我昨天質詢徐佳青委員長的時候也特別提到，在海外，現在連雙十國慶中國也要滲透，以結合抗戰勝利80周年提出荒謬的言論；另外，金融界也有所謂科技的滲透。所以我想問一下，面對這種全方位的滲透，總統也宣示要做正面因應的時候，行政院有跨部會的因應嗎？除了國安會議以外。"],["卓院長榮泰：有，當時開會的時候我就說，我們會要求相關的所有部會一定要列專案來執行，而且我會要求定期考核、限期完成，所以我們在這個禮拜就會開始相關作業，我希望在一定的時間內，針對17項的內容，有關的各部會都要訂定出未來執行的計畫，而且能夠看到執行的時間。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝院長非常明確的答復，就是我們整個內閣是光劍一出，要對所謂中國的滲透必須有所作為。","其實我剛剛最後一個提到金融面的問題，我不知道院長是不是知道前一陣子媒體特別報導了一則新聞，中國財政部先持股進入國家中小企業發展基金有限公司，這個國家是中國財政部、中國這個國家，然後再往下持股到深圳國中小企業發展私募股權投資基金，然後再往下持股一間公司，這間公司雖然號稱是新加坡公司，然後來臺灣開子公司。我們知道資安即國安，金融的安全更為重要，臺灣業者如果讓這間新加坡公司來承接所謂信用卡核心關鍵技術的系統，會不會變成中國滲透進入臺灣的一個方法，甚至成為一個樣板，我不知道院長知不知道這樣的個案案例？"],["卓院長榮泰：細節請彭主委來說明。"],["彭主任委員金隆：委員好。我想剛剛提到的，其實我們在金融監理上，對於任何，比如說我們金融機構委外，我們是不限國家地區，我們是全面的有要求他們必須針對這些資通安全系統有一些規範，特別是高風險地區更是要求他們要做。像這件事情發生以後，我們也全面的去了解國內金融機構相關的一些執行，我們也加強金融機構的安全控管，希望他們能夠持續地把這些強化。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以現在來自新加坡、號稱是新加坡公司，但是背後有中資影子的公司，本來要進入臺灣的信用卡系統，目前還會持續進入嗎？還是其實金管會已經做了必要的措施？"],["彭主任委員金隆：跟委員說明一下，其實一知悉這件事情，我們就立刻請它一定務必要清查背後的情況，而且他們的這個系統根本沒有上線。我們的要求是有沒有資安風險不是自己說了算，必須找第三方公證，他們也做出這樣的查核，發現這個系統並沒有相關的後門的安全疑慮，因為這個系統還沒有上線，所以這部分應該是被阻卻了。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，這家公司背後的關係、系統，經濟部已經有相當的了解，我請部長說明。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我們請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，對於新加坡商類似認和科技這些是不是陸資公司，我經濟部經過調查以後，確定新加坡商認和科技公司是具有陸資控制力的，確實為陸資公司，所以我們將依兩岸條例第九十三條之一的規定，處以新臺幣217萬元的罰鍰。"],["林委員楚茵：所以言下之意，確實背後是有中資的影子在裡面。我們都知道臺灣金融是高度監理，這樣的一間公司，它本身的合作夥伴就統統是來自於中國，當它來自於中國的時候，很可能臺灣就是它下一塊想要前進的部分，所以在金融如何避免所謂的非紅供應鏈？我們知道我們現在在基礎建設、國防安全的部分都已經開始強調要去除紅色供應鏈，但是在金融系統裡面，本席特別找到在2019年也發生過壽險的核心系統採用到中國相關的技術跟系統，所以這個部分並不是一個偶發事件，其實涉及整體金融國安部分。因此本席就要請問，不論是郭部長或是彭主委，在金融系統上面、在IT防範上面，如何避免紅色供應鏈的入侵？現在有個方法嗎？比如像這次的案子，如果它在申請的時候是以設立公司，設立公司可能就不一定會經過投審會的相關審查，而且當時業者也說有勘查這間認和科技，該公司並沒有在我們所謂的紅色供應商裡面，所以就認為它是安全的。我們既然發現了這個問題，想請問部長或是主委，有沒有一個方式能夠保障臺灣金融系統的安全？"],["彭主任委員金隆：是，跟委員說明，其實在過去我們是不限國家地區，本來就訂定有金融機構資通系統與服務供應鏈風險管理規範，而且我們也會蒐集相關案例，特別是對於這些高風險，我們會採取相關的動作。以這一次為例，我覺得他們剛開始的警覺性確實需要被強化，這件事情從表面上看，可能未來金融業我們要透過這個案例來告訴他們要特別的強化。我要跟委員特別強調，金管部分有兩個重點，一個是資安，一個是只要任何碰觸到客戶資料的部分，我們都會做更嚴格的管理。謝謝。"],["林委員楚茵：最後本席要建議院長，就是當我跟業者做詢問的時候，它會提到的是，他們其實是找不到合適的廠商來合作，我們都知道臺灣是IT大國、科技大國，如果一個信用卡的系統，又或者是壽險的系統，當我們找不到國內MIT的廠商的時候，當然國外的其他非中國的國家、非紅色供應鏈，如果有價格的問題的時候，是不是也可以請數位部應該來做一個整合？我相信臺灣應該做得出來信用卡需要的資訊相關系統或者是壽險所謂保障客戶的這種系統，是不是？"],["卓院長榮泰：是應該的，我們會請跨部會互相協助，當金融單位有此需求的時候，我會請主委來協調、跨部會來協助，提供必要的支援廠商，這樣才能確保我們的資通安全。"],["林委員楚茵：好。因為時間有限，我想要跳到我的最後一張PPT。我們知道現在有許多公民團體在發起屬於自己的罷免權，但是從二階的罷免開始，其實從一階開始之後，不斷地陸續有出現騷擾的行為。根據我所整理的，從去年開始一直到3月17號這樣一系列，要不就是支持者打人，說「我是中國人，我來鬧場」；甚至於有志工在路上發傳單就被揮拳，被當場K頭；甚至有操著中國口音的人來鬧場。我覺得這是蠻諷刺的，中國人連自己的總統都選不出來，但是卻在臺灣滋事。到底他是真的中國人，還是臺灣人假扮中國人，這個恐怕要由相關的執法單位來做說明。但是我要請院長回應的就是，臺灣是一個自由、民主，而且受到法律保障的國家，雖然國民黨昨天在發起所謂公投提案的時候說要反廢死，要「還命於民」，但是我們剛剛看到羅列的這些都是國民黨的支持者，我是蠻想呼籲國民黨在還命於民之前，要不要先還安全於人民？難道說臺灣民眾自發性的發起，他們要展現他們的罷免權，卻要被國民黨的支持者來痛打，又或者是自稱中國人在臺灣這片土地來毆打我們的臺灣民眾嗎？我覺得這個部分，講到這裡我非常的憤怒，我也認為院長應該要做一些說明。"],["卓院長榮泰：好。政府的責任在於保障每一位國民合法行使他國民的參政權利，政府的責任也在保障每一場合法的活動，所有到場者的人身安全，如果有滋擾的事件，那麼要要求我們的警政單位、檢調單位一定要負起責任。部長在這裡，請部長來說明。"],["劉部長世芳：是。非常謝謝委員的關心，我們已經三令五申，包括警政署，對於有關安全的部分，一定要馬上處理。我們也鼓勵各種合法罷免活動的志工，如果有碰到這種狀況的話，能夠拍照或是錄音錄影，然後馬上到現地的派出所報案，我們依照相關的規定馬上來辦理，確保在所有公民活動上面的安全。"],["林委員楚茵：好，謝謝。辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第32號黃健豪委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","謝龍介","沈伯洋","張智倫","陳雪生"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2025-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00004","1142601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1142601_00004"}}},{"id":"159300","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159300","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1468b0c2f72abc7fe0f5b91f5f3cd2ac192e6bfb57ea0be43d83ffb3a50e0accfd113443f1ac9aa35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"09:17:12 - 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什麼地方 什麼方式都是我們在嘗試的方向之一"},{"start":99.153,"end":125.315,"text":"那我是不是來跟院長說一下第一就是去年十月在部長提出這個菲律賓重電的想法之後呢其實外界是多有批評但是近日看經濟部的這個台菲電力合作評估報告的結果顯示第一呢短期內是沒有辦法蓋海底電纜的那要用電池船運回來每度電要5.5元"},{"start":127.116,"end":151.876,"text":"那長期要建設這個呂宋海峽的電纜能源署自己都說現階段而言呢不管是成本、技術、法規面都有待克服那更存在著這個地緣政治的風險那這明明代表像菲律賓購買綠電是有風險的然而昨天經濟部自己發了一個新聞稿"},{"start":153.337,"end":175.192,"text":"結論就是在菲律賓蓋電廠是具有可行性的那目標價是4塊錢所以4塊錢是您所說的合理的電價嗎部長說明報告委員4塊錢是我說的我們大概高於4塊錢就向外部買這個綠電是沒有意義的"},{"start":176.775,"end":195.062,"text":"所以我們在評估這份報告是在做可行性評估也就是說要進行這件事情我們必須要先了解是否可行所以你意思就是說現在估計每度電要5.5元就是不可行的意思囉不是喔"},{"start":196.562,"end":215.969,"text":"他們所引述的資料是日本現在的船載的這些儲能櫃所送的電的容量算出來一度電需要五塊五毛錢但是五塊五是你不能接受的當然不能接受那個是指日本"},{"start":220.231,"end":238.726,"text":"然後現行因為現在只有日本這樣的一個例可以來做評估但是實際上以我們所了解的程度以我們現在所評估的程度在兩年以後這個成本會大幅下降到四分之一"},{"start":239.975,"end":264.12,"text":"所以這個是符合我們在評估的部分我現在比較擔心的是說這個是不是先畫標靶然後再設建就是說你明明就已經決定一定要去菲律賓買綠墊了所以你才訂了這個目標價還是像卓院長講的說只要是合理的價錢不管來自哪裡你都會買"},{"start":267.122,"end":286.862,"text":"是這樣嗎?你是說是你目標一定要這樣做嗎?你說這個菲律賓,我是菲律賓協議我們最近...政府過去花了數千億投入這個綠能,結果我們台灣現在還要向菲律賓買綠電,然後這次是代表我們的能源政策失敗呢?"},{"start":287.483,"end":315.024,"text":"就台灣不是一直在強調能源轉型呢怎麼會轉到最後我們連自己的電都不夠還要去向菲律賓買電然後一直在想說能源要自主結果現在我們朝向進口電力這不是自相矛盾嗎不是現在的區域經濟學非常明確的告訴我們每一個國家它的要素餅富是不一樣的"},{"start":316.352,"end":328.178,"text":"這個經濟學只要懂的人都非常清楚這個是一個很明顯的自相矛盾之外難道台灣的企業未來還得靠等船運來才能用電"},{"start":329.707,"end":347.589,"text":"菲律賓本身它就是一個電網不穩定的國家常常發生停電台灣的能源安全卻要去依賴它部長你能夠保證這起交易不會成為下一個危機嗎你所談的這一個部分是目前的現象"},{"start":348.53,"end":361.137,"text":"我們經過可行性評估了解以後為什麼他電會那麼貴是他的電網費用非常的高但是至於他的這個深層的你是台灣的經濟部長不是菲律賓的經濟部長你不需要為菲律賓的這個電價現狀來做說明那我只想問不只是院長部長"},{"start":371.602,"end":385.626,"text":"其實全世界各國,包括日本、韓國、歐洲,都在重啟核電,那來確保能源穩定的時候,台灣卻寧可向菲律賓買綠電用船運來,也不願意討論核能,這樣子是為什麼呢?"},{"start":391.407,"end":416.176,"text":"官委員報告這不是台灣寧可剛剛部長也說明了這是一個可行性的評估評估的內容包括很多種包括這個方式是否可行成本是否可行國內是否需要還有沒有其他的替代方式這個都在評估的過程所以這是一個過程當中我們認為很多的來源很多的方式都足以拿出來討論委員你如果認為有新的核能技術"},{"start":417.156,"end":440.814,"text":"可以讓台灣沒有核安的問題沒有核廢料的處理我們都可以來討論是 我覺得院長這樣子回答就相當理性但我必須要講就是說在部長發這麼多的時間金錢在評估菲律賓的綠電用船運來這件事的同時他是不是也要像院長講的一樣去同時可行性評估"},{"start":444.957,"end":445.598,"text":"報告委員 這些我們都有在評估"},{"start":463.833,"end":482.344,"text":"評估的進度為何為什麼到目前都沒有聽說我們只是一味的聽到說菲律賓買綠電我們怎麼都沒有看到經濟部有這個新聞稿對外說我們現在對於重啟核能的進度或者是研發這個新的核電技術的報告都沒有"},{"start":483.164,"end":506.266,"text":"這個都是我們平常的業務啦也就是說我們是多元的電力的這個必須要使用多元電力的國家所以您剛才所談的這個部分我們當然是都有在這個研討所以你可以看得出來我們雖然已經shut down了這個核電廠的人力但是我們人力都沒有變喔"},{"start":508.747,"end":529.595,"text":"我想這個電價的問題可能院長跟部長都已經被問到滾瓜爛熟了但我還是必須再問一次就是請問我們台灣的核能發電一度電是多少以目前他因為大部分的折救已經折完了所以他的一度電大概是在接近兩塊錢"},{"start":531.683,"end":540.689,"text":"1.4塊所以我就想要代表民眾問院長跟部長我們台灣放著一度電1.4塊的電不用我們要用4塊、5塊、6塊、7塊、8塊甚至一度買11.1塊的電"},{"start":550.199,"end":561.773,"text":"我們現在不是不用 而是說我剛才講的三個前提在前面請問今年是不是要再漲電價是不是要再漲電價"},{"start":568.851,"end":579.264,"text":"店家當然是店家審議委員會啊那店家審議委員會開會的時候他也會收集各方的資料包括社會 包括民生也包括台電的財務狀況那這個就是他們去討論的內容"},{"start":583.07,"end":600.23,"text":"這就是本席想要問院長的院長您知道台電現在的財務狀況嗎你知道他目前虧損多少錢嗎幾乎到達4300億左右了沒錯4229億就代表說就算我們今年再撥補那1000億"},{"start":601.892,"end":628.164,"text":"台電還是虧損啊所以為什麼會覺得說我們三年撥補了他三千億假設今年再撥補他一千億四千億也彌補不了他的虧損甚至還要漲電價所以我想強調兩點第一台電並沒有因為政府撥補就不漲電價第二台電並沒有因為政府撥補或漲電價就停止虧損院長"},{"start":632.038,"end":634.465,"text":"台電不虧損的原因大家都知道"},{"start":636.202,"end":664.861,"text":"戰爭的原因有料上漲補貼的政策這個我們不需要重複了那我們1000億的撥補不是要讓他的解決他的財務問題只是讓他的財務能夠健全一點他少支出一些資本的成本利息能夠減輕一些那麼讓他能夠減輕這方面的負擔那麼就不需要去考慮調整或是調整太大幅度的各項電費是做這樣的平衡而已那如果反過來想"},{"start":668.805,"end":680.516,"text":"你怎麼不支一千億撥補民眾來付漲的電價呢意思是一樣的嘛因為這筆錢都要到台電啊但是感覺不一樣啊"},{"start":682.362,"end":696.521,"text":"電表不一定每個人都背在身上有的有用到電有的就沒有用到電表雖然每個人都會用到電但電表不一定那我們怎麼去計算對這個人他如果沒有再付電費的時候他就沒有收到錢是 我理解但是呢"},{"start":697.182,"end":709.219,"text":"我必須要講現在有很多消息都傳出說這個電價審議委員會這一次這一次這就是我在講的說雖然部長院長都說這個電價審議委員會會決定可是其實呢"},{"start":713.405,"end":742.7,"text":"政府還是有決策的這個角色那大家這個小道消息都傳出來說可能連330度以下的民生用電跟小商家的用電都會調漲那用電大戶可能會漲更多那現在所有的百姓所有的這些民眾大家都在關注所以院長是否可以借今天告訴大家說這次漲電價是否勢在必行"},{"start":743.14,"end":769.345,"text":"那漲幅有可能在什麼樣的range之內我們還是考慮到它的成本的反應市場的穩定還有民生的穩定還有能夠使用者付費還要提倡節約能源這幾項原則底下那目前你說的那個多少度數以上以下如何調整至少我這裡還沒有看到現在送來的任何報告所以我們也沒有任何的討論"},{"start":771.819,"end":785.068,"text":"目前其實全面漲電價央行就已經說了會造成今年的CPI會破2%的警戒線聽說院長也指示經濟部也要討論水費調漲的方案民眾要面臨的已經不是電價可能會漲可能水費也要漲這等於是水電雙漲"},{"start":800.738,"end":814.411,"text":"院長您有考慮過這對一般小家庭的衝擊嗎當然所以我們很慎重因為水價幾乎是30年沒有調30年沒有調過那現在這個水價是非常的低的"},{"start":815.572,"end":833.303,"text":"也一方面要鼓勵大家能夠節約珍惜這個水資源那也要反映現在每一度水處理的成本那合理的調整是在考慮當中但時機是還沒有決定我們當然希望能夠降低衝擊能夠平衡一點在整個年度當中不要"},{"start":837.166,"end":853.934,"text":"這就是本席想要提醒院長的真的水電雙長的話對於一般小家庭的衝擊太大了一定要去考量說苦民所苦啊他們的一般的生活已經很辛苦了水電雙長那是整個打到腦門子上"},{"start":856.095,"end":878.46,"text":"非常非常的嚴重那另外我也想提醒一下郭部長郭部長我當然知道你有很多雄心壯志但是你知道水電衝擊衝擊的可能不只是民眾還有可能是你個人因為通常有一些慣例就是年終有可能會換隔園有可能會異動那調整這些民生費用可能會變成"},{"start":880.1,"end":907.591,"text":"你要扛下來的責任也有可能是要替換這個格緣的原因所以呢我也希望說這件事情搞不好也會變成你畢業的理由那我當然提醒你啦這個人民最關心的倒不是誰來當官而是自己的生活開銷會不會因此而提高那我在這裡也希望說當然我們政府"},{"start":908.231,"end":935.457,"text":"能夠提供企業穩定用電然後民眾合理的電價讓我們國家在競爭力上面尤其你看我們的最大的這個可能競爭對手韓國他都宣布說在2038年之前他要再蓋四座核能發電廠那我們未來的競爭力在哪裡我們不是還要發展AI嗎我們不是還要發展更多的晶圓廠嗎那電力來源到底在哪裡"},{"start":938.891,"end":953.399,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們會非常審慎的來觀察民生的穩定我個人認為郭部長我不期待他只是一位水電部長他是掌握國家經濟發展的經濟部長這個才是他的正職"},{"start":954.861,"end":979.577,"text":"我們共同期待啊但我必須要提醒說假設在重啟核能或者是研發新的這個核電技術上那政府如果消極的話立法院就要積極核管法的修正喔從上個會期就在討論那未來修正通過之後我們就可以跟國際接軌讓核電研議喔那我也希望說這個部分喔院長能夠大力的支持"},{"start":981.872,"end":998.63,"text":"院長能夠支持嗎如果立法院修正通過之後行政院是不是還要再提復議我再說說明只要是合乎憲法的規定而且經過充分的討論民主的程序我也來自立法院對立法院的尊重"},{"start":999.431,"end":1022.119,"text":"我跟歷任的院長都一樣好 謝謝院長那我接下來想要問有關於這個農業部針對農保資格大規模清查的這件事情不曉得院長知不知道這個農業部最近在清查這個農保資格是 這好像他們的一般的業務之一嘛請部長說明"},{"start":1022.859,"end":1048.458,"text":"我跟委員報告這次農保清查不是說第一次我們持續都有清查然後是根據監察院審計部要求來清查有關於天然災害領埔的跟農保地的差異所以你農業部並沒有主動想要清查的意思是嗎都是別人逼你的意思嗎我們的清查就是例行上都有清查因為農保就是一種從事農業工作的在職的社會保護"},{"start":1049.318,"end":1071.563,"text":"所以現在其實呢您開始清查之後讓基層的農民可以說是人心惶惶大家都非常的害怕部分農民可能面臨失去農保資格的風險那他一生耕耘那麼認真那麼辛苦風雨無阻地種植糧食然後養活這麼多的人民結果今天"},{"start":1072.603,"end":1084.528,"text":"可能他們年老體衰因為配合很多政府的政策被告知說你不再是農民了你的農保資格取消了請問部長你覺得這樣對得起為台灣農業奉獻一輩子的農民嗎我要跟委員報告就是我們這次的清查是在65歲以下的我們並沒有針對65歲以上的農民來做清查"},{"start":1098.894,"end":1118.414,"text":"另外一個方式就是65歲以上的農民他即使把地租出去他的農保地不需要到一分地所以這個完全沒有問題我不是不知道但是你要想假設是65歲以前那更可憐"},{"start":1120.267,"end":1136.633,"text":"那就代表說他以後可能領不到老農年金了他就不符合老農年金的資格了那影響不是比你清查65歲以下的還大嗎我要跟委員說明他如果沒有農地他就沒有從事農業當初他們配合政府政策說你把電租出給這個光電業者"},{"start":1144.116,"end":1167.771,"text":"或者您每天在講的一期二轉三加三裡面是不是鼓勵小地主把地都租給大電農這個部分怎麼辦 我要跟委員說明漁電共生一個非常重要的前提就是以農為本 綠能是加值的所以他還是要從事農業我不是說 我不是只有針對農漁電共生我是針對整體的綠能政策嘛那這個部分"},{"start":1173.715,"end":1182.227,"text":"很多農民也許住在台北或都市的百姓會覺得哇 你農民怎麼這麼貪心啊你又要租金 然後你又要這個保險"},{"start":1183.891,"end":1207.45,"text":"他們真的不是貪心他們是真的不知道他們的權益受損我希望部長能夠站在這些農民的角色其實呢我真的是對事不對人啊我也知道說部長是一個很認真的這個工作在這個很認真的官員可是呢我必須要講你不能整天"},{"start":1208.271,"end":1234.091,"text":"把你的精神都用在跟立法委員打嘴狗都用在跟立法委員爭辯我們提出的這個需求是真的來自地方基層他們需要我不是希望說我今天鬥嘴贏過你我也不是希望說今天政治鬥爭我能贏過你我是希望說你要站在他們的立場"},{"start":1235.452,"end":1260.289,"text":"來幫助他們啊 幫助這些農民啊否則這些農民 我告訴你 他接到公文他真的是跑到農會去問我跟你說 那是晴天霹靂 他欲哭無淚那這些真的無助的農民 院長你覺得他應該怎麼辦呢我跟委員說沒有沒有 我問院長 院長這些無助的農民怎麼辦農委會沒有要back up他們農委會沒有要支持他們現行的政策是 你土地 農民的土地"},{"start":1260.993,"end":1278.524,"text":"出租給業者進行光電的合作只要他還有從事農業的生產是不會影響到任何農民的權益但你如果完全都把它放棄了跟我們現在的政策是有所不符那我必須在這裡跟這個院長還有部長講其實呢"},{"start":1282.472,"end":1303.63,"text":"我不知道是不是農業部裡面有一些官員說實在是相當的冷血有很多農會幫這些農民在陳情、在說明的時候你知道嗎?我只是不希望今天把它秀出來我覺得實在是太心酸了"},{"start":1305.618,"end":1322.971,"text":"那個計政就直接跟那個農會講啊他說他都已經可以領老農年金了他沒有領上上補助費反正他死了也領不到這種話說得出口你覺得這有把農民放在心上嗎說這種話的官員如果是有官員說這種話是不對的我想我們會針對"},{"start":1324.512,"end":1352.176,"text":"這些可能的這些有疑慮的我們會逐一的去了解而且能夠幫忙他確保農保的身份這是第一要件所以他未來是一定是一個個案的實際的去審查是所以部長我真心的在這裡呼籲你真的放下那些政治鬥爭的心放下那些只想要到罪過的心我們一起來為農民爭取他們的權益守護他們你做得到嗎"},{"start":1352.836,"end":1367.45,"text":"我想我覺得做得到 如果很多外界的那個批評是真實的我們一定虛心接受 如果它是一個錯假的話我們一定會做一個澄清各位 我們在農漁的合作上面我始終強調農漁優先農漁優先"},{"start":1371.997,"end":1386.605,"text":"官員有沒有剛剛委員有講的那一段話我們要告訴官員講這段話是不對的是要告訴官員不可以講這種的話嚴厲的要求農業優先是政府永遠不變的定律"},{"start":1387.445,"end":1404.841,"text":"謝謝因為真的他們是非常弱勢的一名他們根本是沒有辦法去理解他們的權益在哪裡他們失去了他們權益他們也求助無門所以今天我必須代表農漁民在這裡轉達他們的心聲幫他們澄清那我也在這裡懇求院長漁店農店"},{"start":1409.059,"end":1436.141,"text":"一定要動漲假設今年再漲店家的話我們農業的用電漁業的用電一定要比照去年喔繼續動漲可不可以拜託院長因為很多大企業說實在你漲店家你只是傷他的皮膚你只是傷他的皮毛可是如果你漲我們農業的用電你漲我們漁業的用電我們有很多農家子弟很多農民的下一代他可能下個學期他就繳不起學費了今年"},{"start":1438.806,"end":1452.35,"text":"如何會不會漲還是電價審議委員會但是過去有漲農業部我們都有電價補貼可以讓他的負擔減輕很多我跟委員報告就是就算電價有槓農業部會針對這個差價的部分做補貼這樣以今年來講我們就補貼了25億"},{"start":1457.594,"end":1481.663,"text":"是謝謝那我再一次呼籲希望說這個農保的審查能夠放寬能夠真的搞不好可以重新再怎麼樣來調整讓這些可能受到傷害或者是有危險的就是有風險的有失去農保風險的這些農民可以有補健的機會有補救的機會這一點部長可以承諾嗎"},{"start":1482.403,"end":1504.035,"text":"我們一直在這樣做就是在農會在審查的時候我們會個案如果他有一些可以補件的部分可以修正的部分我們會盡量來協助但本席擔心的是可能部裡面只有部長這樣想不會你下面的人多嚴格你知道嗎我有多少的例子你知道嗎我會特別的要求我支持部長審查當然要據實"},{"start":1505.516,"end":1528.451,"text":"當然一定要展現我們對農民關懷的溫暖給他們一點寬容這個一定要出來而且從人性的這個角度來關懷農民關懷漁民這個一定要統領下去所有的同仁一定要這樣做到拜託院長了也拜託部長那接下來我因為時間也剩不多我想要問一下部長有關於我們斗六這個鐵路高架化"},{"start":1535.66,"end":1559.228,"text":"我們這個斗六市雲林縣的行政中心那市區內的鐵路貫穿有九處的平交道每年發生多起的事故那不僅威脅了人民的生命安全那也嚴重影響了我們的城市發展那形成一個長久以來的一個瓶頸那攸關雲林縣的重要建設早在這個"},{"start":1561.689,"end":1584.696,"text":"11年3月17就通過了交通部的鐵道局的初審那經歷了多次的這個審查上次本席也在這裡問過您那終於在6月解決了一 曲率半徑二 效益評估三 臨時平交道的三大關卡已經送進去這個交通部審查了然而過去了9個月"},{"start":1585.956,"end":1607.834,"text":"原地踏步毫無進展那去年十月呢我也向卓院長詢問過此案的進度那我想要知道說就是這樣的拖延究竟是有什麼有行政帶拓呢還是有其他的考量是否有具體的時程因為等六人喔已經等了三十年了還要再等多久院長"},{"start":1610.772,"end":1632.746,"text":"目前的程序上面其實您剛剛所說的都是正確那現在因為他這個路線不佳跟重波不佳的原因我們還在做研究當中因為重波不佳會影響到未來的整體的安全性還有就是他整個爬坡的那個耗損性那這個部分其實會是長期的影響我們希望把這個問題先解決完之後我們再進入下一個步驟當然我知道委員"},{"start":1633.627,"end":1643.221,"text":"一直在爭取啦地方上的委員大家都在爭取斗六的這個鐵道的高價化那我們會積極來推動不過現在工程上面的問題我覺得你剛剛就講到重點了就是這個是安全的問題喔就是"},{"start":1648.568,"end":1675.38,"text":"根據了解本案內環橋路段設計的坡度是千分之十四點八七然後完全符合你這個交通部鐵道局軌道工程設計的注意事項規定的最大坡度不得超過千分之二十五那這個整個本案的線型調整跟設計早就跟台鐵公司充分協商並取得同意符合這個專業標準"},{"start":1677.361,"end":1688.748,"text":"那為什麼交通部在這個月又推翻了這個設計導致這個計畫遲遲無法推動呢我們的審議委員如果有提出不一樣的意見的時候我們都必須要審慎去面對"},{"start":1690.25,"end":1714.215,"text":"我必須要說的是鐵道高架化這個是很長遠的一個建設如果要做就要把它做好所以我們現在也正在研議說該用什麼樣的方法我現在比較擔心的是是不是有選舉考量難道是因為本席上任不到半年就解決了這個卡關30年的問題導致有人刻意從中作梗然後阻礙斗六的發展"},{"start":1715.015,"end":1734.211,"text":"把自己的利益放在民眾跟國家的利益之上報告委員 這個是專業的工程上面的問題跟選舉其實不會有任何關係報告委員 你放心不會有選舉的考量不會有政黨的考量不會有個人的考量真的 我也不希望是我個人的原因耶是不是也不希望是選舉的原因不希望是政治的原因"},{"start":1734.631,"end":1754.217,"text":"希望真的站在這個百姓的立場所以這一點我得到這個院長跟部長的承諾那假設部長說要講專業我就提幾個案子因為部長也是來自台中嘛那台中的鐵路高降化的計畫它的全線波度是介於一點千分之1.8跟"},{"start":1756.197,"end":1784.895,"text":"時期那所以其實台中包括這個大慶車站立體交會處的波度是達到千分之十七是高於斗六的那為什麼至今已經營運多年也沒有任何問題那斗六其實設計的波度更小更安全卻能被卡關呢因為斗六這邊這個問題應該是可以解決的我們目前也在研議當中所以這個解決的方案應該很快就出來"},{"start":1785.771,"end":1801.911,"text":"是 拜託部長了因為競速我想相同的專業問題不可能也不應該有不同的結果怎麼會相同的這個波度甚至更小當初台中可以結果我們斗六不可以"},{"start":1803.372,"end":1822.808,"text":"這個就是會讓人家有不好的一個聯想所以這一點我一定要特別拜託院長拜託部長30年的等待有多少家庭因為交通事故然後被毀了有多少地方發展因為受限只能無奈限縮我們看到其他的城市"},{"start":1831.227,"end":1837.719,"text":"好 謝謝張家俊委員質詢 謝謝卓院長 各部會首長的備詢接下來我們請登記"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":90,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（9時17分）院長，我想請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩再請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：張委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：卓院長早安。大家的問題真的是非常多，其實大家的初衷都是希望臺灣能夠更好，我們的民生能夠更穩定。我想要請教院長，近期在報紙上面，新聞媒體傳得沸沸揚揚的向菲律賓購買綠電這一件事情，不曉得部長有沒有跟您報告過他評估的結果？"],["卓院長榮泰：在歷次的會議當中有碰觸到這些問題，部長也有他的想法，但一切都還要取得雙方更多的合作或者意願，現在來看，目前這件事情還不到一個最成熟的階段，請部長說明。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以可以請教院長……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這一件事情我們現在還在做可行性評估……"],["張委員嘉郡：等等、等等，我要請教院長，院長，請問這是您支持的嗎？這個方向您是支持的嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：如果我們可以從任何的地方、方式取得成本足以負擔而且國內需求的所有能源，不管從什麼方向、什麼地方、什麼方式，都是我們在嘗試的方向之一。"],["張委員嘉郡：我是不是來跟院長說一下，第一，去年10月部長提出在菲律賓種電的想法之後，其實外界是多有批評，但是近日看經濟部「台菲電力合作評估報告」的結果顯示，第一，短期內是沒有辦法蓋海底電纜的，要用電池船運回來，每度電要5.5元，長期要建設呂宋海峽的電纜，能源署自己都說，以現階段而言，不管是成本、技術、法規面都有待克服，更存在地緣政治的風險。這明明代表向菲律賓購買綠電是有風險的，然而昨天經濟部自己發了一個新聞稿，結論就是在菲律賓蓋電廠是具有可行性的，目標價是4塊錢，所以4塊錢是您所說的合理的電價嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：部長說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，4塊錢是我說的，我們向外部買綠電大概高於4塊錢是沒有意義的，所以這份報告是在做可行性評估，也就是說，要進行這件事情我們必須要先了解是否可行，現在我們認為在那個地方……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你的意思是說現在估計每度電要5.5元就是不可行的意思？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，報告委員，他們所引述的資料是日本現在船載的這一些儲能櫃所送的電的容量算出來一度電需要5塊5毛錢，但是……"],["張委員嘉郡：5.5元是你不能接受的，你希望能夠4塊以下？"],["郭部長智輝：當然不能接受，那個是指日本，因為現在只有日本這樣的一個例子可以來做評估，但是實際上，以我們所了解的程度、以我們現在所評估的程度，在2年以後，成本會大幅下降到四分之一，所以這個是符合我們評估的部分。"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在比較擔心的是說這個是不是先畫標靶，然後再射箭，就是說你明明就已經決定一定要去菲律賓買綠電了，所以你才訂了這個目標價，還是是像卓院長講的只要是合理的價錢，不管來自哪裡，你都會買？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：是這樣嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：合理的價格……"],["張委員嘉郡：你是說你目標一定要這樣做嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：你說菲律賓，菲律賓是離我們最近……"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有，我是要講政府過去花了數千億投入綠能，結果臺灣現在還要向菲律賓買綠電，這是不是代表我們的能源政策失敗呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在做可行性評估。"],["張委員嘉郡：臺灣不是一直在強調能源轉型？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["張委員嘉郡：怎麼會轉到最後我們連自己的電都不夠，還要去向菲律賓買電？一直在講說能源要自主，結果現在我們朝向進口電力，這不是自相矛盾嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，報告委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：不是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：現在的區域經濟學非常明確的告訴我們，每一個國家的要素稟賦是不一樣的，這個經濟學只要懂的人都非常的清楚。"],["張委員嘉郡：我必須要講，這是一個很明顯的自相矛盾之外，難道臺灣的企業未來還得靠等船運來才能用電？菲律賓本身就是一個電網不穩定的國家，常常發生停電，臺灣的能源安全卻要去依賴它，部長，你能夠保證這筆交易不會成為下一個危機嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你所談的這一個部分是目前的現象，我們經過可行性評估了解以後，為什麼它電費那麼貴，是它的電網費用非常的高……"],["張委員嘉郡：部長……"],["郭部長智輝：但是，至於它生成的造創電成本並沒有那麼高……"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，您是臺灣的經濟部長，不是菲律賓的經濟部長，你不需要為菲律賓的電價現狀來做說明。","我只想問，不只是院長、部長，其實全世界各國，包括日本、韓國、歐洲都在重啟核電來確保能源穩定的時候，臺灣卻寧可向菲律賓買綠電用船運來，也不願意討論核能，是為什麼呢？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，這不是臺灣寧可，剛剛部長也說明了這是一個可行性的評估，評估的內容包括很多種，包括這個方式是否可行、成本是否可行、國內是否需要、有沒有其他的替代方式，這個都在評估的過程，所以這是一個過程當中，我們認為很多的來源、很多的方式都足以拿出來討論。","委員，你如果認為有新的核能技術，可以讓臺灣沒有核安的問題、沒有核廢料的處理，我們都可以來討論。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，我覺得院長這樣子回答就相當理性，但我必須要講，在部長花這麼多的時間、金錢在評估菲律賓的綠電用船運來這件事的同時，是不是也要像院長講的一樣，同時去可行性評估新的核電技術是不是已經有在執行了？我們要重啟核能、或者是對新的核電技術、新的處理核廢料的技術等等，這個你有做可行性評估嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這些我們都有在評估，我們……"],["張委員嘉郡：評估的進度為何？為什麼我們到目前都沒有聽說？我們只是一味的聽到說向菲律賓買綠電，我們怎麼都沒有看到經濟部有新聞稿對外說我們現在對於重啟核能的進度或者是研發新的核電技術的報告，都沒有！"],["郭部長智輝：這個都是我們平常的業務，也就是說，我們是必須要使用多元電力的國家，所以您剛才所談的這個部分我們當然都有在研討，因此你可以看得出來，我們雖然已經shut down了核電廠的人力，但是我們人力都沒有變，我們人力都在處理……"],["張委員嘉郡：我想電價的問題可能院長跟部長都已經被問到滾瓜爛熟了，但我還是必須再問一次，請問臺灣的核能發電一度電是多少？"],["郭部長智輝：因為它大部分的折舊已經折完了，所以目前它的一度電大概是接近2塊錢。"],["張委員嘉郡：1.4塊，所以我就想要代表民眾問院長跟部長，臺灣放著一度1.4塊的電不用，我們要用4塊、5塊、6塊、7塊、8塊，甚至買一度11.1塊的電……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員嘉郡：那這樣子台電當然要虧損啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在不是不用，而是我剛才講的3個前提在前面……"],["張委員嘉郡：我接下來想問院長，請問今年是不是要再漲電價？"],["郭部長智輝：漲不漲電價不是……"],["張委員嘉郡：院長，是不是要再漲電價？"],["卓院長榮泰：電價當然是由電價審議委員會決定，電價審議委員會開會的時候，它也會蒐集各方的資料，包括社會、包括民生，也包括台電的財務狀況，這個就是他們去討論的內容。"],["張委員嘉郡：這就是本席想要問院長的，院長，您知道台電現在的財務狀況嗎？你知道它目前虧損多少錢嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：幾乎到達4,300億左右了。"],["張委員嘉郡：沒錯！4,229億，這代表就算今年再撥補那1,000億，台電還是虧損啊！所以為什麼會覺得說我們3年撥補了它3,000億，假設今年再撥補它1,000億，4,000億也彌補不了它的虧損，甚至還要漲電價。因此我想強調兩點，第一、台電並沒有因為政府撥補就不漲電價；第二、台電並沒有因為政府撥補或漲電價就停止虧損，院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，台電虧損的原因大家都知道，有戰爭的原因、油料上漲、補貼的政策，這個我們不需要重複了。我們1,000億的撥補不是要解決它的財務問題，只是讓它的財務能夠健全一點，讓它少支出一些資本的成本，利息能夠減輕一些，讓它能夠減輕這方面的負擔，就不需要去考慮調整或是調整太大幅度的各項電費，是做這樣的平衡而已。"],["張委員嘉郡：那如果反過來想，同樣要花這1,000億，你怎麼不將這1,000億撥補民眾來付漲的電價呢？意思是一樣的嘛！因為這筆錢都要到台電，但是感覺不一樣啊！"],["卓院長榮泰：但是電表不一定每個人都揹在身上，有的有用到電表，有的就沒有用到電表，雖然每個人都會用到電，但電表不一定，那我們怎麼去計算，對於這個人，他如果沒有在付電費的時候，他就沒有受到……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，我理解，但是我必須要講，現在有很多消息都傳出說電價審議委員會這一次……這就是我在講的，雖然部長、院長都說電價審議委員會會決定，可是其實政府還是有決策的角色，大家的小道消息都傳出來說可能連330度以下的民生用電跟小商家的用電都會調漲，用電大戶可能會漲更多。現在所有的百姓、所有的民眾大家都在關注，所以院長是否可以藉由今天來告訴大家說這一次漲電價是否勢在必行，漲幅有可能在什麼樣的range之內？"],["卓院長榮泰：我們還是考慮到它的成本反應、市場的穩定、民生的穩定、能夠使用者付費及提倡節約能源，在這幾項原則底下。目前你說的，如多少度數以上、以下如何調整，至少我這裡現在還沒有看到送來的任何報告，所以我們也沒有任何的討論。"],["張委員嘉郡：了解。目前其實全面漲電價，央行就已經說了，會造成今年的CPI破2%的警戒線。聽說院長也指示經濟部要討論水費調漲的方案。民眾要面臨的已經不是電價可能會漲，水費可能也要漲，這等於是水電雙漲。院長，您有考慮過這對一般小家庭的衝擊嗎？"],["卓院長榮泰：當然，所以我們很慎重，因為水價幾乎是30年沒有調過，現在的水價是非常低的，一方面要鼓勵大家能夠節約、珍惜水資源，另一方面也要反映現在每一度水處理的成本。合理的調整是在考慮當中，但是時機還沒有決定，我們當然希望能夠降低衝擊，能夠平衡一點，在整個年度當中不要一次造成大家在心理上及財務上的負擔。"],["張委員嘉郡：這就是本席想要提醒院長的，真的水電雙漲的話，對於一般小家庭的衝擊太大了！"],["卓院長榮泰：了解。"],["張委員嘉郡：一定要去考量這個，要苦民所苦，民眾一般的生活已經很辛苦了，水電雙漲，那是整個打到腦門子上，非常非常的嚴重！另外，我也想提醒一下郭部長，郭部長，我當然知道你有很多雄心壯志，但是你知道水電衝擊的可能不只是民眾，還有可能是你個人，因為通常有一些慣例，就是年中有可能會換閣員，有可能會異動。調漲這些民生費用，可能會變成是你要扛下來的責任，也有可能是要替換閣員的原因，所以這件事情搞不好也會變成你畢業的理由。當然，我提醒您，人民最關心的倒不是誰來當官，而是自己的生活開銷會不會因此而提高，我在這裡也希望，政府能夠提供企業穩定用電、民眾合理的電價，讓我們國家在競爭力上面……尤其你看我們最大的可能競爭對手──韓國，都宣布在2038年之前要再蓋4座核能發電廠。那我們未來的競爭力在哪裡？我們不是還要發展AI嗎？我們不是還要發展更多的晶圓廠嗎？電力來源到底在哪裡？"],["卓院長榮泰：跟委員報告，我們會非常審慎地來觀察民生的穩定，我個人認為，郭部長，我不期待他只是一位水電部長，他是掌握國家經濟發展的經濟部長，這個才是他的正職。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們共同期待，但我必須要提醒，假設在重啟核能，或者是研發新的核電技術上，政府如果消極的話，立法院就要積極。核管法的修正從上個會期就在討論，未來修正通過之後，我們就可以跟國際接軌，讓核電延役，我也希望這個部分院長能夠大力的支持，院長能夠支持嗎？如果立法院修正通過之後，行政院是不是還要再提覆議？"],["卓院長榮泰：我再次說明，只要是合乎憲法的規定，而且經過充分的討論、民主的程序。我也來自立法院，對立法院的尊重，我跟歷任的院長都一樣。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝院長。我接下來想要問有關農業部針對農保資格大規模清查的這件事情，不曉得院長知不知道農業部最近在清查農保資格？"],["卓院長榮泰：是，有聽說，這好像是他們的一般業務之一，請部長說明。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，這次農保清查不是第一次，我們持續都有清查，是根據監察院、審計部要求，來清查有關天然災害領補跟農保地差異的部分。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以農業部並沒有主動想要清查的意思，是嗎？都是別人逼你的意思嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：不是，我們在例行上都有清查，因為農保就是一種從事農業工作的在職社會保險。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然，所以現在您開始清查之後，讓基層的農民可以說是人心惶惶，大家都非常的害怕，部分農民可能面臨失去農保資格的風險，他一生耕耘那麼認真、那麼辛苦，風雨無阻的種植糧食，養活這麼多的人民，結果今天可能他們年老體衰，因為配合很多政府的政策，被告知你不再是農民了，你的農保資格取消了。請問部長，你覺得這樣對得起為臺灣農業奉獻一輩子的農民嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員報告，我們這次的清查是針對65歲以下的，我們並沒有針對65歲以上的農民做清查，另外65歲以上的農民即使把地租出去，他的農保地不需要到一分地，所以這個部分完全沒有問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，這些你講的我都知道，我不是不知道，但是你要想，假設是65歲以前，那更可憐，就代表他以後可能領不到老農年金了……"],["陳部長駿季：不是，他如果沒有農地……"],["張委員嘉郡：他就不符合老農年金的資格了，影響不是比你清查65歲以上的還大嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我要跟委員說明，他如果沒有農地，就沒有從事農業，沒有從事農業，就沒有農保資格。"],["張委員嘉郡：當初他們配合政府政策，把地出租給光電業者，或者您每天在講的「1集、2轉、3加3」，裡面是不是鼓勵小地主把地都租給大佃農，這個部分要怎麼辦呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明，漁電共生一個非常重要的前提就是以農為本，綠能是加值的，所以他還是要從事農業，只要從事農業就不會有農保資格的問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：我不是只有針對農漁電共生，我是針對整體的綠能政策嘛！很多農民……也許住在臺北或都市的百姓會覺得農民怎麼這麼貪心啊！又要租金然後又要保險，他們真的不是貪心，他們是真的不知道他們的權益受損，我希望部長能夠站在這些農民的角度，其實我真的是對事不對人，我也知道部長是一個很認真的官員，可是我必須要講，你不能整天把精神都用在跟立法委員鬥嘴，都用在跟立法委員爭辯。我們提出的需求是真的來自地方基層，他們需要，我不是希望今天鬥嘴贏過你，我也不是希望今天政治鬥爭能贏過你，我是希望你要站在他們的立場來幫助他們，幫助這些農民啊！否則我告訴你，這些農民接到公文，他真的是跑到農會去問，我跟你說那是晴天霹靂，他欲哭無淚。這些無助的農民，院長覺得他應該怎麼辦呢？"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員說明……"],["張委員嘉郡：沒有，我問院長，院長，這些無助的農民怎麼辦？農業部沒有要幫他們，農業部沒有要支持他們！"],["卓院長榮泰：現行的政策是農民的土地出租給業者進行光電的合作，只要他還有從事農業的生產……"],["陳部長駿季：對。"],["卓院長榮泰：是不會影響到任何農民的權益，但你如果完全都把它放棄了，跟我們現在的政策是有所不符。"],["張委員嘉郡：我必須在這裡跟院長還有部長講，其實農業部裡面有一些官員，說實在是相當的冷血，有很多農會幫這些農民在陳情、在說明的時候，你知道嗎？我只是不希望今天把它show出來，我覺得實在是太心酸了。"],["卓院長榮泰：委員，我了解。"],["張委員嘉郡：技正就直接跟農會講，他都已經可以領老農年金了，他沒有領喪葬補助費，反正他死了也領不到，這種話說得出口？"],["陳部長駿季：我覺得這種話……"],["張委員嘉郡：你覺得這樣有把農民放在心上嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：說這種話的官員，如果有官員說這種話是不對的，我們會針對這些可能有疑慮的逐一去了解，而且能夠幫忙他確保農保的身分，這是第一要件，所以未來一定是個案的、實際的去審查。"],["張委員嘉郡：是。所以部長，我真心在這裡呼籲你，放下那些政治鬥爭的心，放下那些只想要鬥嘴的心，我們一起來為農民爭取他們的權益，守護他們，你做得到嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我絕對做得到，如果很多外界批評是真實的，我們一定虛心接受，如果它是錯假的話，我們一定會做一個澄清。"],["張委員嘉郡：是。"],["卓院長榮泰：報告委員，我們在農漁合作上面，我始終強調農漁優先。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：所以不管有沒有剛剛委員講的那一段話，我們要告訴官員，不是講這一段話是不對的，而是要告訴官員不可以講這種話。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：要嚴厲的要求，農漁優先是政府永遠不變的定律。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝，因為他們真的是非常弱勢，他們根本沒有辦法理解他們的權益在哪裡，失去了權益也求助無門，所以今天我必須代表農漁民在這裡轉達他們的心聲，幫他們陳情。我也在這裡懇求院長，漁電、農電一定要凍漲，假設今年再漲電價的話，我們農業的用電、漁業的用電一定要比照去年繼續凍漲，可不可以拜託院長？因為說實在的，很多大企業被漲電價只是傷到它的皮膚、只是傷到它的皮毛，可是如果你漲農業用電、漁業用電，有很多農家子弟、很多農民的下一代可能下個學期就繳不起學費了。"],["卓院長榮泰：今年會不會漲還是由電價審議委員會討論，但是過去有漲的話，農業部都有提供電價補貼，可以讓他們的負擔減輕很多。"],["陳部長駿季：我跟委員報告，就算電價有漲，農業部會針對差價的部分做補貼，以今年來講就補貼了25億。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，謝謝。我再次呼籲，希望農保的審查能夠放寬，搞不好可以重新再做怎麼樣的調整，讓這些可能受到傷害或者是有危險的，也就是有失去農保風險的這些農民可以有補件的機會、有補救的機會，這一點部長可以承諾嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我們一直在這樣做，農會在審查時會個案處理，如果他們有一些可以補件、可以修正的部分，我們會儘量來協助。"],["張委員嘉郡：但本席擔心的是，可能部裡面只有部長這樣想……"],["陳部長駿季：不會……"],["張委員嘉郡：你下面的人多嚴格，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我會特別要求。"],["張委員嘉郡：我有多少的例子，你知道嗎？"],["陳部長駿季：我會特別的要求。"],["卓院長榮泰：我會支持部長，審查當然要據實。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然。"],["卓院長榮泰：一定要展現我們對農民關懷的溫暖……"],["張委員嘉郡：給他們一點寬容。"],["卓院長榮泰：這個一定要出來，而且從人性的角度來關懷農民、關懷漁民，這個一定要通令下去，所有的同仁一定要這樣做到。"],["張委員嘉郡：拜託院長了，也拜託部長。","接下來因為時間也剩不多了，我想要問一下部長有關於斗六鐵路高架化，斗六是雲林縣的行政中心，市區內的鐵路貫穿，有9處平交道，每年發生多起事故，不僅威脅了人民的生命安全，也嚴重影響了我們的城市發展，形成長久以來的瓶頸，是攸關雲林縣的重要建設，早在111年3月17日就通過了交通部鐵道局的初審，經歷了多次的審查，上次本席也在這裡問過您，終於在6月解決了一、曲率半徑；二、效益評估；三、臨時平交道，這三大關卡已經送進去交通部審查了，然而過去9個月卻原地踏步、毫無進展。去年10月我也向卓院長詢問過此案的進度，我想要知道這樣的拖延究竟是有行政怠惰還是有其他的考量？是否有具體的時程？因為斗六人已經等了30年了，還要再等多久？院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：請部長說明。"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，目前在程序上面，其實您剛剛所說的都是正確，現在因為它路線不佳跟縱坡不佳的原因，我們還在做研究當中，縱坡不佳會影響未來整體的安全性，還有爬坡的耗損性，這個部分其實會是長期的影響，我們希望把這個問題先解決完之後再進入下一個步驟，當然我知道委員一直在爭取，地方上大家也都在爭取斗六的鐵道高架化，我們會積極來推動，不過現在工程上面的問題……"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我覺得你剛剛講到重點了，這個是安全的問題。根據了解，本案內環橋路段設計的坡度是千分之十四點八七，完全符合交通部鐵道局軌道工程設計注意事項所規定的最大坡度不得超過千分之二十五，而本案的線型調整跟設計早就跟臺鐵公司充分協商，並取得同意，符合專業標準，為什麼交通部這個月又推翻了設計，導致計畫遲遲無法推動？"],["陳部長世凱：審議委員如果提出不一樣的意見時，我們都必須審慎面對。我必須要說的是，鐵道高架化是一個很長遠的建設，如果要做就要把它做好。所以我們現在也正在研議，看有什麼樣的方法……"],["張委員嘉郡：我現在比較擔心是不是有選舉考量？難道是因為本席上任不到半年就解決了這個卡關30年的問題，導致有人刻意從中作梗，阻礙斗六發展，把自己的利益放在民眾跟國家的利益之上？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，這是專業的工程問題，跟選舉其實不會有任何……"],["卓院長榮泰：委員放心，不會有選舉考量、不會有政黨考量、不會有個人的考量！"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝。我真的也不希望是我個人的原因……"],["卓院長榮泰：不會的。"],["張委員嘉郡：是不是？也不希望是選舉的原因、不希望是政治的原因，希望能真的站在百姓的立場，所以這一點我希望能得到院長跟部長的承諾。既然部長要講專業，我就提幾個案子為例。部長來自臺中，臺中鐵路高架化計畫的全線坡度介於千分之一點八跟十七之間，而臺中大慶車站立體交會處的坡度達到千分之十七，高於斗六。該站至今已經營運多年，沒有任何問題，而斗六設計的坡度其實更小、更安全，卻被卡關？"],["陳部長世凱：報告委員，斗六的這個問題應該是可以解決的，我們目前也在研議當中，相信解決方案應該很快就會出來。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，拜託部長了，希望能儘速。相同的專業問題，不可能也不應該有不同的結果！怎麼會相同的坡度、甚至更小，當初臺中可以，結果斗六不可以？這就會讓人家有不好的聯想。所以這一點我要特別拜託院長、拜託部長，30年的等待，有多少家庭因為交通事故被毀了？有多少地方發展因此而受限，只能無奈限縮？看到其他城市有鐵路高架化，我們非常羨慕，所以在此特別拜託，謝謝院長，謝謝部長。"],["卓院長榮泰：請交通部儘速審議。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第31號林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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有請卓院長麻煩請卓院長備詢"},{"start":26.24,"end":47.023,"text":"各位好院長好 院長辛苦了本席今天要針對新住民的議題來跟院長做一個探討台灣的政府為了協助新住民適應台灣的生活其實擬定了很多友善新住民的政策例如像訂定新住民照顧服務"},{"start":47.383,"end":74.46,"text":"措施還有這個設置新住民發展基金還有辦理新住民生活適應輔導計劃那還有建置新住民賠利發展資訊網我前兩天才去參加了移民署所主辦的這個陪你迎向這個新生活的這個活動那甚至在小英總統的時代還把東南亞七國的語言列入了這個國中小的這個課綱這是世界的這個首例"},{"start":75.16,"end":97.166,"text":"去年我們也三讀通過新住民的專法所以我們也可以看得出來台灣政府其實對新住民都展現了很大的誠意希望新住民在台灣能夠好好的發展好好的生活賴清德總統在過去其實多次下鄉跟新住民面對面的座談"},{"start":98.666,"end":115.091,"text":"所以我們也看得出來賴總統對於新住民的支持跟關心甚至有一次在座談的時候新住民朋友有提到就是說因為我們新住民都是來自於世界各國"},{"start":115.771,"end":141.1,"text":"那來到台灣其實對語言也好或風俗習慣也好其實是非常的不適應那可是呢一來到台灣幾乎大部分的新住民都有面臨這個養育兒女的這個狀況尤其是孕育兒女的狀況那很需要自己的親父母親到台灣來做這個陪伴我想這個都是基於這個親情的這個呼喚所以那時候呢總統聽了這個新住民的這個心聲之後呢"},{"start":145.382,"end":157.529,"text":"所以在這個大選2023年大選的時候呢就擬定了新住民的這個六大政策那其中有一項呢就是要鬆綁新住民慈禧尊親屬來台探親規定的這個停留的這個規定"},{"start":161.371,"end":185.458,"text":"那當然我們有跟這個相關的單位像這個內政部也好陸委會也好還有外交部我們都有提到說新住民其實需求並不是很多我們只希望能夠比照外專人才專法就是說外專人才延攬條例來台的新住民其實他們的父母親可以在台灣停留一年可是呢我們"},{"start":186.178,"end":202.116,"text":"来自于世界各国婚姻移民来到台湾的这些新住民其实我们的父母亲停留的时间也许只有三个月最长就是不超过六个月所以竟然透过专业人才演览条约莱特新住民"},{"start":202.957,"end":218.424,"text":"這樣子的這個這個條例為什麼我們沒有辦法來做比照所以我跟各個部會曾經做了很多的探討那當然這已經討論了一段時間我想了解就是說到底這個有沒有進展我們到底有沒有實施要實施的話是什麼時候會通過請問院長"},{"start":221.205,"end":244.455,"text":"謝謝委員我們都結成了歡迎要跟台灣當朋友要把這裡當家鄉的任何新住民的朋友因為總統的原因來到這裡跟我們的生活融合在一起我們也會竭力的來照顧跟他們也融合在一起所以總統跟新住民朋友跟團體接觸的那個經驗也是我們普遍共同的經驗"},{"start":245.675,"end":262.613,"text":"但我們當然也希望從法制上能夠來做全面的檢討跟更新如果說剛剛您提到的這個來台灣遵清屬來台灣的時間等等的問題我們在一個橫頻的比較底下內政部有沒有再進一步的來做規劃請部長來做說明"},{"start":264.932,"end":279.117,"text":"謝謝羅委員羅委員對於新住民的政策可以說是一個非常重要的推手那我想羅美玲委員所關心的議題目前沒有錯新住民專遷署來台停留時間最長六個月"},{"start":280.177,"end":303.207,"text":"羅委員多次跟我們的相關單位包括我們移民署都有做協調所以目前我們已經有跟相關單位的延商取得共識就是希望說在台設有戶籍且懷孕或育有兩歲以下親生子女的新住民延長他父母在台停留期間的法令目前我們可能是朝著可以六個月在家六個月"},{"start":304.128,"end":318.744,"text":"6加6對在以這個方向來處理那現在呢相關的法制作業包括要修正入出國跟移民法的配合修法的程序呢已經陸陸續續完成可能最近的公告出去的話就可以來執行"},{"start":319.639,"end":334.387,"text":"OK好謝謝部長我們聽到了一個非常開心的一個進展因為這個議題其實從總統提出來之後呢我們就一直在做討論所以那當然新著名朋友也是非常的關心一直在問說到底有沒有進展居然是總統"},{"start":334.967,"end":351.927,"text":"總統的政見就一定要實現嗎我在想這是總統對新住民的這個承諾那再來還有就是說也有很多台灣的民眾有在想說如果是說我們讓這個新住民的尊卿署來台一年那有沒有健保的這個問題這個部分是不是要說明一下呢"},{"start":352.287,"end":368.926,"text":"是目前為止的我們並沒有討論這個進度了因為原來在六個月的停留期間他是屬於停留的身份所以沒有辦法適用健保那目前我們先以這個延長六個月到六個月的一個停留的期間所以還是停留的身份仍然是停留的身份"},{"start":369.326,"end":394.319,"text":"是我们只有拘留的部分才有健保的问题嘛对不对所以既然是停留就没有健保的问题所以说台湾民众所担心到时会不会造成健保的这个负担我想这个部分是没有的所以这没有健保劳健保的问题就对了这纯粹就是考量人道的考量让新住民的尊亲属可以有多一点的时间来陪伴自己的孙子自己的女儿或这个自己的女儿"},{"start":394.639,"end":413.637,"text":"所以我在想这个都是人道的考量那当然我知道说目前我们设定的就是家里育有两岁以下的新住民家庭就可以来申请纯粹就是说让这个尊亲属可以来做这个陪伴嘛对不对好谢谢以上谢谢那再来呢还有就是有关于这个劳动部"},{"start":415.179,"end":436.397,"text":"勞動會在2月的時候有預告婚姻移民新住民將納入救福法那我是不是要請一下勞動部長那也就是說在2月10號有公告就是為了落實保障新住民的就業權益希望藉由提供各項的服務措施跟就業的獎勵補助計畫希望讓新住民也可以納入救福法的第24條"},{"start":442.482,"end":466.393,"text":"資歷促進就業的這個對象其實勞動部呢我們本來就有擬定促進新住民就業補助作業要點在新住民的這個身份上來講的話其實我們設定的是未涉及的新住民嘛對不對那現在我們要把這個新住民的納入救福法第24條那想請教一下就是新住民的這個"},{"start":467.493,"end":483.606,"text":"定義經過這個新住民基本法通過之後其實它新住民的定義是有擴大來做解釋所以我想了解一下說我們把這個新住民納入救護法二十四條到底我們的身份定義有沒有改變好 跟羅恩報告"},{"start":484.626,"end":498.597,"text":"確實在民國97年的時候當時其實我們訂了一個對於新住民的就業補助的要點當時那主要是主要的範圍是設定是在他是這個未涉及他有居留但未涉及"},{"start":499.378,"end":527.821,"text":"那當然現在在新住民基本法通過之後那現在我們在今年的二月的時候我們把這個新住民在納入的救護法第一項的第十款裡面的這個特定的對象把它納進去以後現在的狀況是不管你有沒有涉及你都可以取得我們比方說雇用的獎助或者是我們職業訓練的這個生活的津貼你都可以有得到這相關我們的幫助所以它的範圍是擴大了"},{"start":529.182,"end":543.917,"text":"所以明確的來講我們還是設定是婚姻移民像利用其他比如說專業技術進來的新住民是不適用的嘛新住民配偶就是婚姻移民嘛因為婚姻移民基本上他們都選"},{"start":544.417,"end":559.245,"text":"就算是說因為剛我提到就是說新住民剛來到台灣其實他們因為語言的不通所以造成他這個就業其實他是屬於比較弱勢的所以我們有一些比較重要的一些補助比如說我有看到有臨時工作津貼職業訓練生活津貼僱用獎助還有"},{"start":562.447,"end":589.563,"text":"求職交通補助金就是在這個新住民的這個促進新住民就業補助作為要點本來就有的一些補助項目嘛那我們現在把這個救福法第二四條納入了新住民就像部長所提到的就是說不管你設不設局你有居留也好或者是入籍也好都可以納入可是只限婚姻移民嘛就是新住民配偶的部分"},{"start":590.343,"end":609.629,"text":"那這部分什麼時候要實施?因為那時候2月10號公告的時候有說可能就是3月份的時候會來實施可是到目前為止好像還沒看到好,我們會來盡快我們實施的同時也會把原本那個要點就範圍比較限縮的那個要點會停止使用那我們會來盡快的趕快來把這部分實施所以這個時程大約是今年會通過嗎?"},{"start":610.789,"end":625.517,"text":"應該是會對因為對新住民來講就是一個很大的一個進展喔就像過去的話只有補助的是未涉及的新住民現在只要你是有新住民的身份其實當然我們還強調是婚姻移民的部分啦OK好"},{"start":626.417,"end":638.851,"text":"好謝謝部長那再來還有呢下一題的話可是也是跟勞動部或是我們內政部其實都有關係那下一題的話我想探討的是這個預期的這個"},{"start":642.795,"end":658.113,"text":"應該是說移工啦非法移工的這個部分這問題呢已經討論了非常久了像我們國內的話現在呢預期拘留的這個人口數呢去年其實是突破了14萬人那其中失聯的移工就超過了9萬人"},{"start":659.861,"end":680.82,"text":"好那剩下的是什么呢可能就是因为来台湾利用观光签证或其他签证进来然后就不离开留在台湾的所以我们这个预期拘留的人口数是非常高的那相较十年前的话其实我们增加了将近的一倍就造成了一些这个边境管理的一些困难"},{"start":681.44,"end":709.873,"text":"那当然国主要重新寻觅这个移工其实也是不方便的那甚至还造成的一些治安的问题比如说像这个毒品炸漆甚至现在更是有充当黑道打手等等的这个治安问题那当然这个合法的这个移工如果说逃逸之后失联之后他就丧失了这个医疗的资源社会福利等等的这个保障那我常常见到很多一些医院的"},{"start":710.553,"end":727.582,"text":"像南投地方的一些醫院曾經也跟我澄清過他就說很多這個醫工到了這個醫院因為他並沒有這個合法的身份所以造成就是有一些醫療的一些費用醫院必須自己來承擔成了一些呆帳"},{"start":728.883,"end":748.843,"text":"可是基於一些人道的考量因為有時候他醫完病人也就跑掉了你也跟他要不到錢所以醫院也是有產生的一些呆帳等等那像這些當然為什麼會有這麼多的預期的這個拘留的人口我想我們應該可能要從源頭來重新來做思考"},{"start":749.443,"end":775.648,"text":"那比如說我們現在引進的制度到底完不完善還有高昂的重借費還有薪資的待遇還有移工的來源國的配合度等等像這些的話可能都會造成這個非法移工的產生因為只要逃獄了他就不用繳交高昂的重借費或者是說他覺得他的工作環境不好所以他就去打黑工那當然所造成的這個問題是非常的複雜那這是台灣長年以來的問題可是我發現"},{"start":778.348,"end":806.527,"text":"大家好像都是束手无策源头无法管理那后面呢又产生这么大的这么大量的这个与其的居留人口那当然这个收容的也是一个很大的这个问题那我有看到就是说目前台湾呢只有四个收容所台北宜兰南投跟高雄那这几个收容所呢其实他们的收容量其实都不大像台北收容所"},{"start":807.779,"end":825.324,"text":"它只能容纳360人宜兰423南投480高雄450也就是说它最大的收容量四个收容所加起来也就1713人可是我刚才有提到我们的这个运气区域人口有高达14万人你要如何去去化"},{"start":826.204,"end":848.225,"text":"如何去去化好源頭無法管理也無法去化那我們這個收到收容所我們最長的收容時間是只有28天就算遣送回國你也就是28天就把錢送回去甚至有些無法遣送因為拿不到他的旅行資料的也有理由證件拿不到可能就沒有辦法就是"},{"start":849.898,"end":863.063,"text":"回到他自己的母國可能繼續留在台灣時間到了你還得把他給放出去又造成另外一個社會的問題那我想請教想針對這個收容的這個這部分先請教我們部長"},{"start":864.588,"end":886.684,"text":"我們有沒有 你看我們的收容所只有四所那我們收容量也只有這麼多那針對這麼大的這個陶藝的這個預期的這居民人口我們要如何去去化這個部分要怎麼處理我知道像很多專情隊就是因為收容不足所以有時候明知道有這個陶藝移工他們也不去處理因為來了沒有辦法收容這個部分我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":889.509,"end":901.926,"text":"謝謝羅委員的指教委員所提到有關收容所不足的部分確實是行之有年再加上最近失聯移工確實比較多那因為台灣是有法制的國家所以我們不可能永久積留"},{"start":903.487,"end":929.975,"text":"再來遣送回去確實有一些困難因為他原來失聯移工的母國有的時候他不願意支付他遣送回國的費用所以說衍生我們的困擾目前內政部除了跟相關的勞政單位或者是觀光或者是交通單位有做比較好的源頭管理之外羅委員所關心的就是有關收容所的部分事實上在111年的時候第一階段我們已經有通過了所謂的請財政部的國有財產署"},{"start":958.383,"end":959.923,"text":"好 謝謝羅美玲委員資訊謝謝卓院長各部會首長的備詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":34,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時1分）謝謝主席，有請卓院長。"],["主席：麻煩請卓院長備詢。"],["卓院長榮泰：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：院長好，院長辛苦了。"],["卓院長榮泰：不會。"],["羅委員美玲：本席今天要針對新住民的議題來跟院長做探討，臺灣政府為了協助新住民適應臺灣的生活，其實擬定了很多友善新住民的政策，例如像訂定新住民照顧服務措施，還有設置新住民發展基金，以及辦理新住民生活適應輔導計畫，另外還有建置新住民培力發展資訊網，我前兩天才去參加移民署所主辦的「培你迎向新生活」的活動；甚至在小英總統的時代還把東南亞7國語言列入國中、小的課綱，這是世界的首例；去年我們也三讀通過新住民的專法，所以我們也可以看得出來臺灣政府其實對新住民展現了很大的誠意，希望新住民在臺灣能夠好好地發展、好好地生活。","賴清德總統過去其實多次下鄉跟新住民面對面座談，所以我們也看得出來賴總統對於新住民的支持及關心，甚至有一次在座談的時候新住民朋友有提到，因為新住民都是來自於世界各國，來到臺灣，對語言也好或是對風俗習慣也好，其實是非常不適應，可是一來到臺灣，幾乎大部分新住民都面臨養育兒女，尤其是孕育兒女的狀況，很需要自己的尊親屬，也就是親生父母親到臺灣來做陪伴，我想這都是基於親情的呼喚。那時候總統聽了新住民的心聲之後，所以在2023年大選時，就擬訂了新住民的六大政策，其中有一項就是要鬆綁新住民直系尊親屬來臺探親停留的相關規定，當然我們有跟相關單位，像內政部也好、陸委會也好，還有外交部，我們都有提到新住民的需求其實並不是很多，我們只希望能夠比照外專人才專法，外專人才延攬條例規定來臺的新住民，他們的父母親可以在臺灣停留1年，可是來自於世界各國因為婚姻移民來到臺灣的這些新住民，他們的父母親停留的時間也許只有3個月，最長就是不超過6個月，既然透過專業人才延攬條例來的新住民有這樣的條例，為什麼沒有辦法來做比照？所以我跟各個部會曾經做了很多的探討，當然這已經討論了一段時間，我想了解的就是到底這個部分有沒有進展，我們到底有沒有要實施？要實施的話，是什麼時候會通過？請問院長。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員，我們都竭誠歡迎要跟臺灣當朋友、要把這裡當家鄉的任何新住民朋友，因為種種原因來到這裡，跟我們的生活融合在一起，我們也會竭力來照顧，跟他們也融合在一起，所以總統跟新住民朋友、團體接觸的經驗也是我們普遍共同的經驗。","我們當然也希望從法制上能夠做全面的檢討跟更新，如同剛剛您提到尊親屬來臺灣的時間等等問題，我們在一個衡平的比較底下，內政部有沒有再進一步來做規劃，請部長來做說明。"],["羅委員美玲：好。"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝羅委員，羅委員對於新住民政策可以說是一個非常重要的推手，關於羅美玲委員所關心的議題，沒有錯，目前新住民尊親屬來臺停留時間最長6個月，羅委員多次跟我們的相關單位，包括移民署都有做協調，所以目前我們已經有跟相關單位研商、取得共識，希望針對在臺設有戶籍且懷孕或育有2歲以下親生子女的新住民，延長他父母在臺停留期間的法令，目前我們可能是朝著可以6個月再加6個月的方向……"],["羅委員美玲：6加6？"],["劉部長世芳：對，以這個方向來處理，關於現在相關的法制作業，包括入出國及移民法要配合修法的程序已經陸陸續續完成，最近公告出去就可以執行。"],["羅委員美玲：好，謝謝部長，我們聽到了一個非常開心的進展，因為這個議題其實從總統提出來之後我們就一直在做討論，當然新住民朋友也是非常的關心，一直在問說到底有沒有進展，既然是總統的政見就一定要實現嘛，我在想這是總統對新住民的承諾。","再來，也有很多臺灣的民眾想說，如果我們讓新住民的尊親屬來臺1年，那有沒有健保的問題，這個部分是不是要說明一下呢？"],["劉部長世芳：是，目前為止我們並沒有討論這個進度了，因為原來在6個月的停留期間，他是屬於停留的身分，所以沒有辦法適用健保，目前我們先以這個延長6個月加6個月的停留期間為主……"],["羅委員美玲：所以還是停留的身分？"],["劉部長世芳：因為目前的身分仍然是停留的身分。"],["羅委員美玲：是，我們只有居留的部分才有健保的問題嘛，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：是的。"],["羅委員美玲：所以既然是停留，就沒有健保的問題，所以臺灣民眾擔心到時候會不會造成健保的負擔，我想這個部分是沒有的，所以這沒有勞健保的問題就對了？"],["劉部長世芳：是。"],["羅委員美玲：這純粹就是人道的考量，讓新住民的尊親屬可以有多一點的時間來陪伴自己的孫子、自己的女兒，所以我想這個都是人道的考量。當然我知道，目前我們設定的就是家裡育有2歲以下的新住民家庭就可以來申請……"],["劉部長世芳：或者是懷孕。"],["羅委員美玲：純粹就是讓尊親屬可以來做陪伴嘛，對不對？"],["劉部長世芳：對，照護跟陪伴。"],["羅委員美玲：好，以上謝謝。","再來就是關於勞動部，勞動部在2月的時候有預告，婚姻移民也就是新住民將納入就服法，我請一下勞動部長，在2月10號有公告，為了落實保障新住民的就業權益，希望藉由提供各項的服務措施跟就業獎勵補助計畫，讓新住民也可以納入就服法第二十四條致力促進就業的對象。其實勞動部本來就有擬定促進新住民就業補助就業要點，在新住民的身分上來講，其實我們設定的是未設籍的新住民，對不對？而現在我們要把新住民納入就服法第二十四條，我想請教一下，新住民的定義經過新住民基本法通過之後，其實新住民的定義是有擴大解釋，所以我想了解一下，我們把新住民納入就服法第二十四條，他們的身分定義到底有沒有改變？"],["洪部長申翰：跟羅委員報告，確實在民國97年的時候，當時我們訂了一個對於新住民的就業補助要點，主要的範圍設定在他有居留但未設籍。當然現在在新住民基本法通過之後，我們在今年的2月把新住民納入就服法第一項第十款的特定對象以後，現在的狀況是，不管你有沒有設籍，你都可以取得比方說僱用的獎助，或者是我們職業訓練的生活津貼，你都可以得到我們相關的幫助，所以這個範圍是擴大了。"],["羅委員美玲：所以明確的來講，我們還是設定為婚姻移民，像其他比如利用專業技術進來的新住民是不適用的嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：新住民配偶。"],["羅委員美玲：新住民配偶，就是婚姻移民嘛！剛剛我提到婚姻移民，基本上新住民剛來到臺灣因為語言的不通，造成他們就業屬於比較弱勢，所以我們有一些比較重要的補助，比如說我看到有臨時工作津貼、職業訓練生活津貼、僱用獎助，還有求職交通補助津貼。"],["洪部長申翰：對！"],["羅委員美玲：在「促進新住民就業補助作業要點」本來就有一些補助項目，那我們現在把新住民納入就服法第二十四條，就像部長提到的，不管你設不設籍、有居留也好，或者是入籍也好，都可以納入，可是只限婚姻移民嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：就是新住民配偶的部分。"],["羅委員美玲：這部分是這樣子，就配偶的部分嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對！"],["羅委員美玲：OK！那這部分什麼時候要實施？因為2月10日公告的時候有說可能3月份會來實施，但是目前為止好像還沒看到。"],["洪部長申翰：好，我們會儘快，實施同時也會把原本範圍比較限縮的那個要點停止適用，我們會儘快的把這部分實施上路。"],["羅委員美玲：所以這個時程大約會是今年會通過嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是會，對……"],["羅委員美玲：因為對新住民來講，這是一個很大的進展，不像過去只有補助未設籍的新住民，現在只要你是有新住民的身分，當然我們還是要強調婚姻移民的部分。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["羅委員美玲：OK！謝謝部長。","再來下一題也是跟勞動部或是內政部有關係，我想探討的是非法移工的部分，這個問題已經討論非常久了，像我們國內現在逾期居留的人口數，去年其實是突破了14萬人，其中失聯的移工就超過了9萬人，那剩下的是什麼呢？可能就是利用觀光簽證或其他簽證進來，然後不離開而留在臺灣的，所以我們逾期居留的人口數是非常高的，相較10年前的話，增加了將近1倍，造成了一些邊境管理的困難。當然，雇主要重新尋覓這些移工其實是不方便的，甚至還造成了一些治安的問題，譬如像毒品、詐欺，現在更是有充當黑道打手等等的治安問題，如果合法的移工逃逸失聯之後，他就喪失了醫療資源、社會福利等等的保障。","我常常接到很多南投地方一些醫院陳情，很多移工到了醫院，因為並沒有合法的身分，可是基於人道考量，所以造成有一些醫療的費用，醫院必須自己來承擔一些呆帳，因為有時候他醫完病，人就跑掉了，你也跟他要不到錢，所以醫院也是產生了一些呆帳等等的問題，那為什麼會有這麼多逾期的居留人口？我想我們可能應該從源頭來重新思考，比如說我們現在引進的制度到底完不完善、高昂的仲介費、薪資的待遇，還有移工來源國的配合度等等，這些都可能造成非法移工的產生，因為他只要逃逸了就不用繳交高昂的仲介費，或者是他覺得他的工作環境不好，就去打黑工，當然所造成的問題是非常的複雜。","這是臺灣長年以來的問題，可是我發現大家好像都束手無策，源頭無法管理，後面又產生這麼大量的逾期居留人口，當然收容也是一個很大的問題，我看到目前臺灣只有4個收容所──臺北、宜蘭、南投跟高雄，這幾個收容所的收容量其實都不大，像臺北收容所只能容納360人、宜蘭423人、南投480人、高雄450人，也就是4個收容所最大的收容量加起來就1,713人，可是我剛才有提到我們的逾期居留人口高達14萬人，你要如何去化？源頭無法管理，也無法去化，送到收容所最長收容時間只有28天，就算遣送回國，也是28天就把他遣送回去，甚至有些無法遣送，因為拿不到他的旅行資料，這種的也有，旅遊證件拿不到，他可能就沒有辦法回到他自己的母國，可能要繼續留在臺灣，時間到了，你還得把他給放出去，又造成另外一個社會的問題。","我想針對收容的部分先請教部長，我們的收容所只有4所，我們的收容量也只有這麼多，針對這麼大的逃逸逾期居留人口，我們要如何去去化，這個部分要怎麼處理？我知道像很多專勤隊就是因為收容不足，所以有時候明知道到有逃逸移工，他們也不去處理，因為來了也沒有辦法收容，這個部分我們要怎麼處理？"],["劉部長世芳：謝謝羅委員的指教，委員所提到有關收容所不足的部分，確實是行之有年，再加上最近失聯移工確實比較多，因為臺灣是有法治的國家，所以我們不可能永久羈留。再來，遣送回去確實有些困擾，因為失聯移工的母國有時候不願意支付他遣送回國的費用，所以衍生我們的困擾，目前內政部除了跟相關的勞政單位或者是觀光或者是交通單位有做比較好的源頭管理之外，羅委員所關心的有關收容所的部分，事實上在111年的時候，第一階段我們已經有通過了所謂的請財政部國有財產署能夠讓我們取得一部分的收容所，目前在第二階段的評估當中。"],["羅委員美玲：我們還會有新設的收容中心是不是？"],["劉部長世芳：是的，但是在第二階段的評估當中。"],["羅委員美玲：是會在哪裡？地點會是在哪裡？"],["劉部長世芳：我私底下再跟羅委員報告好了。"],["羅委員美玲：了解。因為時間的關係，我們就先到這裡，相關的議題我再跟各位探討，謝謝。"],["卓院長榮泰：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員的質詢，謝謝卓院長、各部會首長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第30號張嘉郡委員，請質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":202,"meet_id":"院會-11-3-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","羅美玲","張嘉郡","林楚茵","黃健豪","林岱樺","邱鎮軍","謝衣鳯","陳亭妃","廖先翔","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","郭國文","謝龍介","沈伯洋","張智倫","陳雪生"],"page_start":105,"meetingDate":["2025-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1142601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142601_00004","1142601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 繼續質詢─","agenda_id":"1142601_00004"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}