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謝謝主席還有各位學者還有各位各單位我想今天非常重要謝謝張偉開這樣的一個公聽會那去年我到立法院來跟中家病委我們開了一個記者會主要就是針對非常多的人他因為他年輕時候幫孩子買的保險因為他欠了錢所以這個保險被解約造成可能他的孩子買不到同樣的保險而受到很大的損害"},{"start":29.736,"end":51.279,"text":"所以案子很多 民視廳接到的承受的壓力也非常大各地方法院的民事執行處整個數量從2023年暴漲總共的執行件數已經達到70幾萬件然後目前為止看起來地方法院都非常非常的痛苦因為人力不足"},{"start":51.94,"end":66.762,"text":"那這個案子我們後來請保險局處理保險局也非常快速的處理了有關保險公司不得在主約解約之後同時終止覆約這個部分你要肯定金管會的動作很快"},{"start":67.463,"end":97.083,"text":"但是還是沒有辦法解決地方法院他們對於這個最高法院裁定的一個理解所以在民視廳裡面他們就算有這樣的一個規範那對於地方法院執行法官他可能還是會把人壽保險擴大成成為只要跟人生有關的包括年金險包括可能健康險都在他的執行範圍之內所以整個法院的系統也不是非常非常統一的執行方式所以民視廳他們也只能做出指引"},{"start":97.623,"end":112.759,"text":"所以我們認為可能用這樣的指引方式還是沒有辦法達到法有一致的標準所以希望金管會推動保險法的修法那當然我們看到很多葉老師的臉書我們看到非常多學者的意見其實對於這個部分"},{"start":114.501,"end":136.87,"text":"在2022以前沒有這個問題因為很多人買了保險他就當成另外一種理財的方式甚至可以規避被執行的一些工具那這個裁定之後的確可以橫貧債權人跟債務人的一些權益但是相對的也是侵害了某些被保險人甚至受益人的權益所以這次修法草案拿到"},{"start":138.17,"end":165.827,"text":"之後我們就跟保險局做了很多的討論那也謝謝保險局這邊有修正了一個很重要的因為他們本來的保險法裡面是說受益者的介入權要經過保險人同意也就是保險公司要同意我們認為保險公司只是一個中介的單位他沒有一個同意權所以我們希望他只要相關的執行通知受益人他的書面通知送達保險人就可以成效力"},{"start":166.287,"end":189.517,"text":"所以這個部分的效應會對受益人的影響會比較小所以也謝謝金管會有做好修正但是一樣的接下去就是不得作為抵押或強制執行的標定這個金額到今天為止它是原用所謂強制執行的一個三個月的基本生活費用的總和那到底是三個月還是幾個月當然這是一個債權債務人的權益橫貧的問題那"},{"start":194.159,"end":210.672,"text":"如果按照三個月的話我們算出來大概是七萬多塊的大概是保單價值那它的保額大概是一百萬左右那這部分當然是可以考慮也就是到底一百萬保額是不是對於被保險人或受益人有權益上的保障"},{"start":211.272,"end":229.009,"text":"那從我們有一個比較具體的建議因為現在的車禍的強制行險大概是飽了200萬左右所以這個金額我認為還可以再做討論跟調整那最重要的是就是剛剛兩位老師都有提到說保險公保險其實是要保人為了他的被保險人"},{"start":230.632,"end":241.954,"text":"做一些保障而提早付了保費那之後他的生活遭受了變故或者是他意味之後理財不順而欠了錢那到底我們要保障的是"},{"start":243.171,"end":259.976,"text":"被保險人還是這個可能是他的債權人這兩個的部分的橫評也是需要做討論所以我們看到保險公會其實之前也有做過統計跟計算尤其是法院我們查出來他民事執行裡面70幾萬件有40萬件將近40多萬件是銀行來執行有18萬件是"},{"start":267.918,"end":295.147,"text":"資產管理公司來執行所以其實百分之九十以上都是銀行和資產管理公司所以它是不是百分之百的弱勢債權人這個可能要做一些討論但真正弱勢的債權人比如說車禍的被害人或者是其他真的被他欠錢的這些人我們當然應該保障所以這兩者的橫評我們也希望說聽到各個專家的意見之後我們希望保險局 金管會能夠找出一個能夠確實保障"},{"start":296.647,"end":318.508,"text":"被保險人還有受益人的權益那當然第二個就是金管會也去督促一下銀行他們可不可以先執行別的東西不要先來執行保單我想這個也是在執行上面其實我們政府是可以做一些事的那最後就是我們希望保險公司還是要負起相關的告知跟宣導的責任最重要的是以前的執行幾乎"},{"start":319.449,"end":343.328,"text":"相關的要保人都是收到法院的通知才知道他被解約了所以接下去所有的通知都應該公開透明一定要送達到相關的保險人跟受益人或被保險人身上這樣受益人他才有效的來行使他的所謂的介入權所以接下來的保險公司的責任我們希望他在投保的時候業務員不要因為自己的業務需求"},{"start":344.128,"end":359.398,"text":"大力的宣導說 只要你買了保險 將來就是高枕無憂 絕對不會被查封執行這個可能要從他們的話術裡面 從此之後開始消失 以上 謝謝好 謝謝珊珊委員 接著請汪洪威委員發言"}]}},{"id":"159318","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159318","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b80bf9e2617a48b51039fe1519e09d1f6f03218e34103c684ff82bc5d892225b265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:12:43 - 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麻煩請部長請部長"},{"start":16.852,"end":41.513,"text":"部長好,在您今天的口頭報告還有印的PPT大概就有關於就業人數、勞動參與率、工資都做了說明但有一個獨特的地方我在口頭報告裡面沒有看到是針對我們目前台灣的工時到去年我們全年的總工時是多少時間?去年數字嗎?對,一年"},{"start":43.168,"end":67.061,"text":"那我直接跟部長講是2030個小時2016年我們的民進黨政府上台了以後蔡英文總統對勞工朋友提了六大保障然後其中一個最重要的是工時要減少因為長久以來台灣被稱為過勞之道你知道2016年的時候我們的總工時是多少時間嗎"},{"start":69.159,"end":73.066,"text":"來我直接跟部長講是20352016年的2035到2024年現在是2030部長您覺得我們現在台灣勞工的工時會不會過長"},{"start":82.093,"end":98.856,"text":"我覺得有檢討的空間你覺得有檢討的空間嗎因為我相信部長過去在社運界也好或是您上任任當委員的時候那任回勞工過勞要增加有關於國定假日的主張我相信讓很多勞動朋友都很有期待"},{"start":99.477,"end":127.55,"text":"那只不過說我們前兩天在內政部針對在內政委員會針對有關於國定假日要增加這樣子的議題的時候有很多委員也很關心說您上任了部長以後針對這樣子的政策目標你會不會繼續貫徹來加以執行還是說針對勞動部的立場會跟內政部一樣目前的國定假日有關於增加放假日的時間勞動部並沒有打算要做調整"},{"start":128.666,"end":149.591,"text":"我跟黃委員說明我想黃委員很清楚知道其實國定假日相關的法規目前的主管機關是內政部是是是所以我現在是提到內政部的立場但是 但是但是 但是勞動部在這上面也不是說這全部都是內政部的事情而已 是不是這樣所以從勞動部的角度第一個我們確實覺得是可以來通盤考慮各個"},{"start":152.052,"end":170.177,"text":"領域的工作者的狀況也包括工商情境包括政府的運作那尤其從勞工部的角度當然我們會特別在意勞工的需求所以我們認為在這個議題的國定假日調整雖然法規的主管機關在內政部但我們認為在國定假日的調整上面有"},{"start":171.65,"end":181.027,"text":"可以正向討論的空間有正向討論的空間嗎我這一步跟部長交換一下意見除了國定假日以外啊對很多社群家庭而言"},{"start":182.813,"end":209.629,"text":"家中如果有需要人照顧的話放假去照顧家裡的人是一個非常重要的事情所以我們之前推了家庭照顧假家庭照顧假現在一年有幾天部長知道嗎七天七天嘛這七天是不是併入市價計算對所以有很多民間團體甚至有很多婦女的團體出來大聲疾呼認為家庭照顧假七天併入市價計算是看得到吃不到嘛"},{"start":211.424,"end":223.121,"text":"那在整個政策的立場上面把家庭照護假我們把它列為有薪假這樣子的一個政策方向部長您贊不贊成我先跟委員說明第一個事情是"},{"start":225.062,"end":241.463,"text":"其實在我上任以後其實我們把照顧不離職視為非常重要的政策目標這個我理解那這裡面照顧不離職裡面包括顧小的部分包括顧老的部分所以我們其實也在思考相關的制度上面的調整"},{"start":242.504,"end":265.378,"text":"那家庭照顧價調整是路徑之一是是路徑之一所以我們現在是在總體思考照顧不離職的這個方向上因為很多的包括很多的婦女團體性別團體也大概跟我們說他們很希望未來是透過更彈性的包括也許放假的制度留庭的制度來去緩解他們可能現在必須要在"},{"start":267.159,"end":286.008,"text":"這個職場跟家庭照顧必須二選一的這個狀況那我們會從整體的照顧不離之狀況提出一套做法那我們希望能夠更彈性我提一個政策的方向啦給部長做思考剛剛您提到婦女團體嘛那婦女薪資基金會的董事長曾經說過"},{"start":287.749,"end":315.708,"text":"勞工一年的試駕14天7天的家庭照顧假併入在裡面所以對勞工來講看得到但是用不到的家庭照顧假剛剛我所援引的是這樣子的主張所以對於台灣民眾黨而言我們把家庭照顧假把它列為是有薪假這個是我們希望推動的整個立法的方向從勞動部的立場來講你們只是目前為止最起碼把它考慮成入境之一"},{"start":316.728,"end":333.229,"text":"這個是討論的路徑之一但是確實這裡面要考慮是財政上面的狀況因為這個所謂有薪其實可能是要政府付錢那這裡面包括現在財化法的這樣修訂的方法讓中央政府其實可以運用的財政空間"},{"start":334.775,"end":357.736,"text":"又再減小了如果按照目前的財化法假如要上路的話那會讓中央政府的財政空間又再減小所以我的意思是說這是路徑之一那財政上面當然是必須考慮的其中一點剛剛您提到有關於財政上面的問題就回到了我上次最後一次質詢的時候我請教您的事情因為"},{"start":358.797,"end":382.858,"text":"之前就業安定基金亂化的狀況整個社會都很憤怒嘛審計部一開始的調查2022年到2024年的時候有5174萬不符合用途後來在我們的要求之下他擴大調查過去這五年有7224萬遭到濫用那上一次我在質詢您的時候我說我們的立場很清楚"},{"start":383.639,"end":410.254,"text":"所有費不到農用的錢全部都要追回來那您說這不會是空洞的承諾會有具體的作為嗎那目前為止勞動部具體的作為是什麼跟黃磊說明當然審計部的報告他其實審計部的相關的調查包括他們其實也好幾波的來函要我們說明跟確認跟釐清那我們目前都按照審計部要求的進度在進行"},{"start":410.934,"end":424.822,"text":"那但是這個最後的狀況該怎麼處理其實就其實政府的這個審計制度是有一套法規的那這個最後判定的權限其實是在審計部你們給審計部的回函是密件嗎不是那不是密件的話會不會可以提供這個可能可以問一下審計部吧"},{"start":433.544,"end":453.518,"text":"對阿 因為你們如果給審計部的回函如果不是理見的話是不是請你們回函我先讓黃委員知道就是說第一個我們的回函最後審計部怎麼判定我們當然就會尊重審計部的自決我直接跟部長說明阿為什麼我會希望看到你們的回函因為你們的回函其實代表了勞動部的立場嘛是"},{"start":454.238,"end":468.853,"text":"那從勞動部的立場是錢到底要追回來還是幫過去所犯的錯誤再問過是非我覺得從你們的迴韓白紙黑字看了會最清楚我要跟華人說明是說最後判定該怎麼處理的我們會尊重審計部剛剛你已經說明過了我們會尊重審計部"},{"start":471.536,"end":488.107,"text":"那我們在我們的回覆裡面把確實我們認為有哪些部分有檢討的空間哪些部分可以做得更好我們在裡面也做出說明我為什麼會希望看到勞動部回審計部的回函道理非常的簡單就如同我剛剛說的勞動部回審計部的立場"},{"start":490.569,"end":508.754,"text":"到底是每一分每一毫被浪費到而且要追回來還是幫過去所犯的錯誤再問過是非其實看迴韓是最清楚啦我這樣直接跟部長說好了齁如果這個不是密件的話那是不是請會後勤勞動部來提供應該是可以吧"},{"start":509.933,"end":521.62,"text":"可以嗎 好那個主席也站起來了我最後只是請教一個問題因為我之前追的事情我希望都能夠有一些follow up之前我也質疑過許明春這個沙龍照"},{"start":523.613,"end":550.229,"text":"為了拍他的馬屁 花納稅人的錢 殺錢不手軟那個時候我有請教你說那這種粗製濫造的驗收報告 勞動部檢討完了嗎那許民村的沙龍照著納稅人買單 追回來了嗎那我有請您去問一下許民村這個錢到底要不要吐出來那你說你會去問許部長那你問許部長以後他的答覆是什麼我還是跟這個歡迎說明"},{"start":552.403,"end":578.249,"text":"在關於勞動救援基金的使用的檢討其實這段時間我們都沒有停止包括在1月的時候我們也提出了一個勞動救援基金的但是我現在是正確的你自己對我做的承諾再進一步follow 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大家去看一下"},{"start":141.812,"end":167.824,"text":"只要確定是安全一到三年就重啟啦更重要的烏俄戰爭三年前發生的時候烏俄戰爭的時候大家都知道德國以前是反核的嘛對不對德國在烏俄戰爭的發現了他們天然氣斷氣了價格太高了他們馬上做了一個緊急的處理他們這樣本來三座核子反應爐"},{"start":170.075,"end":187.883,"text":"緊急檢查他是安全的讓他各研議了三到四個月上個月啊德國大選大家已經知道那個結果他反核的執政黨第一大黨跟第二大黨聯合執政黨全部都大敗連德國這麼一個反核的國家民心都變了他們現在大勝的是第三大黨跟第四大黨要聯合組政府他們是支持要反回核能的"},{"start":199.813,"end":227.653,"text":"所以國際的情勢已經在變了連西班牙以前也是反對用核能的西班牙現在也要用了最特別的是義大利大家都知道義大利有文化復興對不對義大利前兩個禮拜喊出一個口號叫做核能復興因為核能穩定而且又便宜所以連以前最反核的德國喔或者以前因為有核災的日本跟美國全部都在反回核能了台灣真的"},{"start":228.729,"end":248.097,"text":"還要抱著以前的意識形態嗎當然我知道有人可能對安全有疑慮等一下我們進一步來談我剛舉例的是說如果當美國跟日本跟全世界先進的國家他們都在用他們認為安全沒有問題為什麼我要問為什麼台灣安全就是有問題的最近啊AIT的這個處長啊古立言他接受自由時報的專訪"},{"start":259.346,"end":284.803,"text":"他說美國跟日本最近為什麼要重用這個核能他說第一個因為穩定還有價格低廉的這個問題他還直接講了他說我們可以幫台灣解決這個問題美國都開口了斯圖文上個禮拜有一個兵推斯圖文是上一任AIT的處長他直接講了他說台灣的這個電力明明有切口啊不穩定啊"},{"start":286.021,"end":295.42,"text":"他不懂全世界都還回核能為什麼台灣不還回你不管是現任的AIT的處長上一任的前任的這個AIT的處長都這樣講了"},{"start":297.409,"end":315.685,"text":"全世界都這樣講為什麼台灣要這樣呢所以我先從國際的情勢跟大家報告如果從國際都已經在改變了從以前反對核能到反回核能台灣真的要用意識形態然後還抱持留在所有人都已經到了21世紀了我們要停留在上世紀嗎這是第一個第二個我們台灣現在面臨的是什麼問題台灣為什麼最近這幾年一直在漲電價"},{"start":322.674,"end":349.737,"text":"不就是因為核一廠停掉了核二廠停掉了核三廠的一號機停掉了5月17號馬上就來了核三廠的二號機馬上要停了大家可以去算一下光是核電廠核一核二核三停掉之後我們的過電成本一年增加一千億結果我們政府啊現在一直拿我們人民納稅錢一年補一千億已經補了三千億進去了漲了五次電價還填不飽喔"},{"start":352.128,"end":373.461,"text":"一般是買立電當然也花了五六百億這是一個問題最大的原因就是因為我們把核電停掉了那你政府要停核電你要跟人民講每一年的一千億要從哪邊來啊你每次都要撥補然後四月一號漁人減盲到了又要漲一次搞不好今年十月一號又要漲一次這是多嚴重的一個問題"},{"start":375.642,"end":398.717,"text":"所以我今天特別來參加這個公聽會一方面當然傾聽我們專家寫者的建議不過我期待大家可以從全世界一個大的趨勢來看然後從國內我們現在碰到的問題我們剛剛不是只有碰到電價要上漲的這個問題我們還碰到我們的電力是不穩定的然後全世界人在這樣活動除了安全之外"},{"start":399.955,"end":410.771,"text":"穩定之外他們在談到綠電的問題低碳的這個問題我們台灣現在沒有用核能用什麼用天然氣對不對天然氣也不穩定啊天然氣的排碳"},{"start":412.984,"end":437.587,"text":"這是不是對台灣的產業也是一個非常大的一個傷害所以當然我等一下會好好傾聽可能今天有些專家寫者是非常堅持說我們的安全是要顧慮到的當然我也主張說你要檢查確定是安全才可以用所以這個會期我蠻期待的包括民眾黨跟國民黨甚至有些民進黨的這個立法委員我們共同好好來這個法把它修好在法令上已經完整的時候我們共同來解決我們這個問題"},{"start":439.068,"end":439.088,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"16531","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16531","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d62ae2672450bbbb2d8b52470c073da947a524d1b3d409a1a788a4648cdbe7e185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-19T08:31:31+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-19T12:35:00+08:00","duration":14609,"影片長度":"04:03:29","委員發言時間":"08:31:31 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強化戰備整備國軍持續掌握各軍各列演訓活動是敵威脅程度成立應變中心及時派遣兵力應對攻擊軍艦之侵擾共軍持續增加台海周邊灰色地帶行動國軍依提請彈性調整應對兵力一 共軍可能行動設計想定狀況納入各部隊戰備訓練提升國軍應處能力"},{"start":2255.067,"end":2268.413,"text":"為強化三軍級與海巡聯合應變能力以建立海軍與海巡合作機制有效提升應儲中低強度灰色地帶侵擾能力"},{"start":2269.693,"end":2293.905,"text":"去年12月共軍執行海空聯訓及沿海長航訓練共國軍暨同步實施立即備戰操演適應中共由訓轉演、由演轉戰之威脅並針對中共運用無人機、侵擾、採取識別監控等程序應處中共近期大量運用海警船和海上民兵實施灰色地帶侵擾"},{"start":2295.613,"end":2304.775,"text":"國軍以海巡署,重新簽署《海上任務綜合資源協定書》,建立快速通報及海底電纜防範機制四、檢討組織編裝為強化部隊戰力,本部課陣全面檢討主戰手臂與後衛部隊的組織架構編制"},{"start":2317.622,"end":2322.828,"text":"規劃和裝備配護,主戰部隊配合M1A2戰車等新式武器裝備陸續貨裝,同步檢討太祖老舊之裝備,並且調整部隊編組能力,以具備遠距精準打擊及快速機動應援等能力。"},{"start":2336.32,"end":2343.082,"text":"守備及後備部隊檢討配護無人機自走火砲及人員運輸車輛強化部隊機動性與火力國軍從編裝到訓練都以實戰化高戰備為目標尋求符合整體聯合作戰需求"},{"start":2353.789,"end":2375.285,"text":"以及各駐岸區因地制宜之相關規劃五 提升作戰韌性為縮短平站轉換艦系強化後勤支援作戰能力本部針對補給品囤儲、精品運輸、裝備保修、網路通訊及軍政醫學等面向皆有盡進措施因應新式武器陸續"},{"start":2376.775,"end":2389.332,"text":"因為新式武器裝備陸續成軍,逐年編列預算採購維持主戰裝備暫時全妥善之零組件提升裝備為保效能及妥善"},{"start":2390.707,"end":2411.459,"text":"為強化國軍的指通韌性,國軍指管系統建置軍材護士備援及機動化配置,確保暫時指管勤船暢通不中斷,並持續建構網路安全防禦縱深。被與承受干擾與迫害時,國軍指管等核心系統仍可維持運作。"},{"start":2413.248,"end":2439.317,"text":"衛情部隊與國軍醫院前進外科小組協同作業並與衛福部、消防署、縣市政府、衛生主管機關建立橫向協調機制以利各單位了解暫時國家醫療體系運作機制為維持暫時國軍血液供給制任性規劃於今年底前成立國軍首座捐血機構令參照有盟國家軍事血液計畫將於115年成立三軍血液計畫"},{"start":2443.204,"end":2459.681,"text":"確保國軍協議供應穩定機制另外強化國軍醫院對於化身放核等特殊災害事件應處能力三星總醫院、國軍、台中醫、台中及桃園總醫院均以取得認證資格並繼續管制認證作業"},{"start":2463.564,"end":2467.747,"text":"6.年度演訓規劃,國軍各項操演並實戰化訓練為原則,採實兵、實地、實時、實裝、防事訓、私訓。114年度藉各項重大演訓,驗證部隊執行聯合作戰作為。"},{"start":2480.783,"end":2503.382,"text":"聯合作戰計畫作為為強化部隊備戰部署能力於3月17日到21日執行立即備戰操演使各級部隊首輪防衛作戰備戰部署階段整備要項並因應中共針對性軍演執行非計畫性立即備戰操演第一屆海軍將執行聯合階級作戰計畫演練並結合空軍戰術總驗收實施"},{"start":2508.626,"end":2532.814,"text":"後續依其程執行聯合資訊及電子作戰操演漢光四十一號電腦輔助指揮所及士兵演習等聯合演訓及建立快速反應能力一百一十三年度一年期UV共接訓二十八題訓練區分入伍駐地及基地等三階段"},{"start":2534.52,"end":2539.364,"text":"經檢討113年訓練成效,自114年起以8週入伍訓練期課程增加手槍、機槍、實彈射擊等訓項,並以駐地及居地訓練階段持續加強國土守備任務等科目以提升義務兵役"},{"start":2554.229,"end":2560.494,"text":"義務役單兵戰鬥職能漢光41號演習漢光41號演習以中共灰色地帶侵擾及2027年工軍犯台可能行動為想定發展基礎區分高階幹部圖上兵推、電腦輔助指揮所演習、士兵演練等三階段實施"},{"start":2577.228,"end":2581.432,"text":"為建立高階幹部圖上兵推研討基礎自去年11月起陸續辦理軍事資訊作戰全社會防衛任性與後勤議題兵推並於2月17日到2月"},{"start":2595.104,"end":2598.667,"text":"到21號實施高階幹部附上兵隊檢視114年聯合作戰計畫修訂成果,藉互動研討建立作戰共識4月份的電腦輔助指揮所演習規劃於5號到18號進行為期14天之對抗潮推演"},{"start":2616.162,"end":2624.814,"text":"7月份呢,石兵演練規劃於9號到18號採石兵實地實施及部分對抗草原方式,實施10天演練"},{"start":2627.247,"end":2650.36,"text":"把無人機籌貨與運用國軍透過偽製對外軍購及國內採購等多元管道籌貨各型無人機並藉由自主研發與生產後指國內產業供應鏈同時爭取有盟國家技術合作共同打造無人機的飛虹供應鏈國軍持續建制擴編無人機專責部隊其中陸軍無人機訓練中心已於114年1月正式編程"},{"start":2657.128,"end":2667.107,"text":"負責地面部隊各型無人機基礎操作等訓練後續規劃由基礎至進階循序訓練提升操作手及師之能量"},{"start":2668.62,"end":2696.646,"text":"國軍因應無人機貨裝及反制需求策判無人機戰力整合運用及無人機運用管理與反制指導並鑽砌各類教範及手冊建立整體運用概念發揮無人機作戰效益九 全社會防衛韌性全社會防衛韌性為總統重大政策因應各種威脅和天災情境建構政府和社會核心功能持續運作之韌性機制"},{"start":2697.455,"end":2720.248,"text":"本部呈行政院之命,總理行政院動員匯報秘書工作113年即召開12次跨部委協調會,是重點以檢視動員法規、嚴定各級動員計畫等事項遵循這個全社會防衛韌性委員會才事將萬安、民安重新整合為2025城鎮韌性演習"},{"start":2722.569,"end":2741.342,"text":"其中全社會防衛動員演習採無劇本小規模方式進行各項演練防空演習擴大驗證民眾實際進入防空疏散避難設施及轉移至救濟站等演練114年規劃14天教招擴訓約2萬餘員同步調整通訊訓練等科目強化訓練內容年度人力動員同心演習"},{"start":2752.21,"end":2777.641,"text":"逐年調整後備軍人參演規模,同縣、警、校及民防團隊遂行全社會防衛動員演練志強四十一號演習結合漢光想定策劃物力動員演練科目,遂行軍需測機物資動員等演練以統合全民總力,支援軍事作戰"},{"start":2779.222,"end":2801.138,"text":"使武器籌貨現況與前瞻規劃國軍建軍規劃之重點與建構不對稱作戰強化防衛韌性提升後備戰力及厚紫灰色地帶應存能量等四大面向一百一十四年度國軍投資重大建設建案具有仁溪市市政會等各式武器裝備"},{"start":2802.959,"end":2829.806,"text":"後續依規劃期程接裝部署另外為滿足快速提升後備戰力之需求除籌貨國內自支機槍等裝備令透過美方對我提供軍事融資FMF及總統提供權PDA等無償軍事援助加速我後備部隊兵力整建進程本部國防創新小組成立後優先關注無人系統等六大領域"},{"start":2830.886,"end":2855.596,"text":"吸引進民間成熟產品,快速提升戰力114年2月24日公告智慧化倉儲管理系統等三案公開徵集並藉由產業化聯作會議與國科會、經濟部及數學部合作鼓勵民間投入國防科技研發11.國防自主國防自主為我國武器籌貨重要原則"},{"start":2856.997,"end":2875.262,"text":"武器系統自主研發,使國軍獲得所需武器裝備,同時能提升我國國安工業實力。本部自114年推動《國安產業發展條例》,迄今均依眷軍備戰需求,定期滾動檢討列管軍品清單功耗品項。"},{"start":2877.335,"end":2900.844,"text":"本部將持續透過多元管道宣導等做法落實推動產發條例以另配合經濟部協助合格廠商取得國外原廠認證等方式建構國防產業供應鏈為電技國防科技自主研發能量結合國科會推動國防先進科技研究計畫"},{"start":2903.994,"end":2922.499,"text":"114年度合定執行計127案,蓄意規劃實施其中查核,其莫評鑑中科院依行不對稱作戰思維,佈局全班的無人機載具創研發展空中部分將兼徵無人機專利試商,以擴大產業規模和韌性"},{"start":2926.36,"end":2951.721,"text":"攻擊型無人機區分短距、均準、獵殺等四種功能結合國內外技術共同研發生產水面部分自殺無人艇為現階段標的並同前述攻擊無人機,預化本年度內辦理公開展示國機國造迄今累計交機十四三架國艦國造持續推動高效能艦艇等四型艦籌艦"},{"start":2955.546,"end":2968.46,"text":"潛艦客執行測試管制於114年11月交建海攻戰力特別預算籌建雄三飛彈等九型飛彈量產及截角作業七星軍一計畫執行進度正常"},{"start":2972.119,"end":2993.641,"text":"十二,國際軍事交流合作,國軍結合國家安全及外交政策,訂定政策對話等十項軍事交流目標,深化與美國及其他有盟國家合作。為推展與有盟國家軍事交流與安全合作,國軍積極培育駐外人員,並透過敦睦演航訓練"},{"start":2995.546,"end":3023.935,"text":"等具體交流與有某國家強化實質夥伴關係美國會跨黨派支持持續提升台灣自我防衛能力以近期通過的《2025財政年度國防授權法》納入台灣安全合作倉儀提供台灣國防物資及人員訓練等安全援助並將台美軍事創傷醫護計畫等有我條文以建議納入法案"},{"start":3025.06,"end":3049.71,"text":"十三,充實志願能力兵員能力為部隊戰力發揮之關鍵總統上任後,即指示本部研議國軍待遇提升方案國軍新式武器裝備陸續接裝成軍,極需高專人才長留久用為鼓勵官兵致戰鬥部隊服役本部研擬志願役加級等五項加級調整方案,均已呈報行政院審議中"},{"start":3052.422,"end":3076.483,"text":"針對自願意申請提前退伍之官兵,有條件開放離營滿一年後可申請再錄影,其年齡、體格、離營前考積等申請標準為之不變。基於憲法保障平等權之意旨,以及參考現行國家招募做法檢討不必要之限制,後續統計年度資料評估執行成效。"},{"start":3079.35,"end":3098.308,"text":"14.國安法制自修,為遏止現役軍人對軍人為宣示效忠之行為,以擬拒《陸海工事刑法》第24條修正草案修正草案除徵定處罰刑責之外,並加重不盡其應盡之責而降低罪之法定刑及徵定其預備犯及陰謀犯"},{"start":3100.009,"end":3121.021,"text":"本修正草案將依法製作為程序,呈送行政院審查,並配合志願役軍士官退伍後納兵後備役男女一致之政策以完成陸海工軍軍官士官服役條例第55條及志願士兵服役條例部分條文修正草案現行行政院審查中"},{"start":3122.386,"end":3148.916,"text":"在法規命令訂定部分的軍事營區安全維護條例現拟據有關進入軍事營區許可申請等七種法規命令已完成草案預告等法制作業程序令入海公經懲罰法及軍人權益事件處理法刻拟據有關懲罰法實行細則等十五種法規命令在總統已公開宣布"},{"start":3149.775,"end":3178.14,"text":"平時需重新建構軍事審判制度,本部將依循政策指導修正軍事審判法並研議採行全面強制辯護制度,匯除階級管轄等以及制定軍法官人事條例、軍事法院組織法、軍事檢察署組織法等相關法規完備各項配套措施確保符合公平審判原則及正當法律程序則憲法要求,被周延兼顧人權保障與軍隊距離"},{"start":3180.578,"end":3201.845,"text":"面對瞬息萬變的國際局勢以及不斷升高的敵情威脅本部務實推動各項重大政策並持恆戰訓整備工作以確保國家安全懇請各位委員先進的持續支持與指導謝謝大家今天也安排向大院實施四年級國防總檢討專報持續就請整合評估師苗師長進行報告"},{"start":3215.083,"end":3242.037,"text":"主席 各位委員 大家好接續提報四年期國防總檢討專案報告前言 依國防法第31條規定於每任總統就職後十個月內國防部應向立法院提出四年期國防總檢討本部未完成辭役法定任務遵照賴總統國防理念與政策指導破壞重要國防施政方向及具體政策"},{"start":3243.137,"end":3262.092,"text":"自去年起,即由各联餐组成专案小组展开编撰作业,并邀请国防军事、战略研究、国际关系及国防产业等领域之专家学者担任咨询委员广纳专业建言共同参与纲目研讨、内容传理及审定工作"},{"start":3262.873,"end":3276.741,"text":"其透過全面性的戰略檢討及整體佈局聚焦國防軍事優先要務以建構具前瞻創新快速應變之堅韌國防力量達成嚇阻戰爭確保區域和平之目標"},{"start":3278.724,"end":3285.388,"text":"編撰架構本次四年期國防總檢討主軸為建構敏捷應變戰力與全社會防衛韌性確保國家安全區分為六章論述說明整體國際戰略環境變動與我國面臨的國防安全挑戰"},{"start":3296.173,"end":3324.526,"text":"凸显我国在印太地缘战略之关键地位并在国防战略与军事战略指导下阐述国军积极建军备战推动国防改革落实国防自主与多元化武器筹获强化全民防卫韧性并链接有盟安全合作打造守护台湾捍卫和平的现代化部队纲目共计六章二十三节架构如下表请参阅"},{"start":3325.922,"end":3341.717,"text":"內容概要 報告如後第一章 國際變局中的台海安全區分大國競爭與區域衝突台海安全局勢中共灰色地帶行動威脅台海作戰形態變化事節"},{"start":3344.239,"end":3360.177,"text":"當前國際戰略環境受到美中大國競爭、俄烏及中東等區域衝突以及中、俄、北韓、伊朗四國緊密軍事合作等交互影響導致國際秩序深受挑戰全球安全情勢呈現錯綜複雜的格局"},{"start":3363.035,"end":3366.86,"text":"中共近年不斷擴張軍力,頻密對我軍事侵擾與操作揮帶行動威脅,意圖測試與損耗國軍戰備整備資源,藉由軍事施壓及認知作戰,動搖民心與士氣,進而改變台海和平現狀。"},{"start":3381.445,"end":3406.494,"text":"第二章国防安全之战略指导区分国防战略与军事战略两节策定精进国防力量强认整体防卫革新国防事务强化组织效能推动国防自主创造双赢效益策应灾防自变守护人民福祉及紧密战略合作共为区域和平五项国防战略目标"},{"start":3408.971,"end":3430.286,"text":"依據防衛固守重成嚇阻軍事戰略,善用我地理防禦優勢及各式武器裝備,發展多域拒止、韌性防衛、軍事作戰整備方向,依機動、敏捷、致命、成本效益、引力等原則,組建陸、海、空網路等多重領域戰力,形成嚇阻侵略的防衛力量。"},{"start":3432.034,"end":3459.573,"text":"暫時運用平戰轉換戰力保存重層防禦及軍民整合等手段延遲敵人行動及逐次削弱敵軍破敵任務失敗第三章打造克敵制勝的軍隊區分建構不對稱與韌性戰力落實實戰化訓練提升後備部隊戰力精進後勤支援效能精神戰力與士氣及應對中共侵擾六節"},{"start":3461.642,"end":3478.124,"text":"戰力整建秉持建構不對稱戰力,強化作戰韌性,提升後備戰力及後值灰色地帶應儲能量四項原則,並強化去中心化運作、複式備援及機動分散等戰力部署作為,提升整體作戰韌性。"},{"start":3479.946,"end":3484.872,"text":"建構擬真戰場環境執行聯合演訓將新式武器納入訓練驗測以強化實戰化訓練持續精進教召訓練充實動員體系資源及更新後備部隊裝備建立後備與常備部隊協同作戰能力"},{"start":3498.376,"end":3523.192,"text":"藉物資分散預囤整合三軍維修能量及後勤資訊系統等作為提升後勤支援效能令透過教育訓練培養愛國情操增強國軍心理韌性建立保家衛國的榮譽感及堅定使命運用科技及多元媒體反制敵任之戰強調國軍絕不屈服任何散播投降的資訊皆為錯假訊息"},{"start":3526.394,"end":3541.31,"text":"第四章推動國防改革優先要務區分預算穩定成長與妥適配置引進創新技術應用國防自主與多元化武獲專業人才培育與留用及現代化部隊管理五節"},{"start":3543.305,"end":3570.407,"text":"总体国防预算维持逐步成长并依法并依法编列特别预算争取国防预算达到国内生产毛儿GDP3 3%以上目标为加速国防创新聚焦人工智慧无人系统等领域引进业界发展成熟的技术以缩短研发其成快速转化及导入军事应用积极打造更具竞争力的国防力量"},{"start":3571.448,"end":3597.965,"text":"令耿旭推動國防自主提高武器自製能力同時透過多元化的武器籌貨管道在多變的國際局勢中保持靈活彈性與供應穩定持續完善招募、考核、訓練及官兵留營等作為為國軍培育領導、作戰及各領域的專業人才令強化文官國防事務之能培育專業久任之能力"},{"start":3599.045,"end":3619.285,"text":"部隊管理秉持以人為本推動行政事務檢證改善官兵營舍助用品質及提高福利照顧等作為第五章全民防衛動員支援持續作戰區分精進動員機制與民防能量跨部會協力合作及戰災防護與救助三節"},{"start":3621.314,"end":3633.761,"text":"持續與各部會及地方政府執行全民防衛資源整合與演練推展民防教育應變訓練以利於平戰快速轉換增進長後一體後備戰力建置戰傷救護訓練機制增加戰備藥品學品庫儲儲備戰傷救護量能應處戰災防護防救任務"},{"start":3647.029,"end":3670.81,"text":"運用跨部會協力共同防護基礎設施安全借城鎮任性演習更新動員人才庫等持續性工作強化資源調度與應變機制第六章 鏈結區域強化集體嚇阻區分深化台美軍事交流合作拓展友盟安全夥伴關係及接軌供應鏈安全體系三節"},{"start":3672.27,"end":3686.785,"text":"透過對美政策對話、軍售、科研、國防產業合作等方式深化雙邊合作、加強作戰互通性並與其他友盟在情報、科研、資安防護、反制揮帶與認知戰威脅等範疇拓展交流領域、建構合作機制"},{"start":3693.055,"end":3718.411,"text":"协助我国防产业获得国外原厂授权及继转与国际友盟合作打造非红供应链提升我国防工业基础能力与产能之优化重点与特色综合四年期国防总检讨章节内容向国内外传达我国防理念以及应对挑战的革新作为包括彰显台湾是台海和平的稳定力量"},{"start":3719.726,"end":3732.912,"text":"強調台海和平穩定攸關印太及全球發展彰顯台灣制衡威權擴張的關鍵角色將堅守民主自由價值展現自我防衛決心及能力前瞻規劃及建構堅實國防確保國家安全"},{"start":3739.417,"end":3761.405,"text":"二 接觸最新防衛作戰概念及整備方向依敵情威脅及我海島防衛地利特性以多域拒止任性防衛為軍事作戰整備方向並採取去中心化運作分散部署 汛機管理 縱深防禦及從城削弱等策略具以修訂作戰計畫規劃武器裝備籌建及落實實戰化訓練要求科技賦能提升防衛戰力"},{"start":3768.863,"end":3787.386,"text":"評估及引進民間創新成熟科技包括無人系統反制無人系統人工智慧應用通訊指管韌性網路安全及革新既有作業機制軟硬體等領域應用於軍事作戰與國防事務管理以強化防衛戰力及提升施政效能"},{"start":3789.195,"end":3817.856,"text":"居民整合打造韌性國防協同各部會及地方政府持續透過兵推與演習驗證全民防衛動員與準備戰備與民生物資之儲存調度與資源管理關鍵基礎設施防護等作為共同應對緊急危難與戰災危險國際供應鏈合作強化集體嚇阻推動與友盟建構具作戰互通性與產業互補性的供需整合系統"},{"start":3819.062,"end":3831.247,"text":"降低對單一供應鏈來源的依賴,增加我國軍備任性,並透過國際社會的集體力量,提高中共犯台遭受國際制裁的成本與風險,達到嚇阻戰爭的目標。"},{"start":3836.277,"end":3853.898,"text":"國防安全是國家生存發展的基石,國軍將不畏艱難,不辱使命,陸力建軍備戰。面對戰略環境變動,國軍必須靈活應變,充分掌握台海情勢變化,以堅實的國防力量,善盡捍衛國家主權與領土完整的職責。"},{"start":3855.3,"end":3864.171,"text":"堅定以備戰達到止戰的態度及行動確保國家永續發展及維護區域和平穩定藉由發揮及彰顯台灣地緣戰略的價值贏得國際社會的認同與支持報告完畢"},{"start":3875.564,"end":3893.255,"text":"我們現在開始詢答今天本會委員6加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘那我們10點半發言登記截止那如果有臨時提案請於10點半前提出大概11點左右處理那我們現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席 有請顧部長有請顧部長 謝謝"},{"start":3913.214,"end":3936.922,"text":"部長早安部長 今年來中國對國軍進行滲透的情形是非常的嚴重所以日前賴清德總統就宣布要恢復軍事審判制度也就是說現在的軍人如果觸犯了陸海空軍刑法的話刑法的軍事犯罪就會由軍事法庭來做審理當然這個議題這幾天引起了很多的討論"},{"start":3938.923,"end":3967.155,"text":"其實在這個當年2013年的時候也就是因為洪仲丘案引發了這個對這個軍中人權還有階級管理失當跟軍事審判調查權的這個重新的這個檢視那歷經了兩次的這個群眾運動促進促成了這個立法院的修法也就是在陳平時期呢軍人犯罪呢會回歸到一般的司法機關來做這個審理那部長您是當年洪仲丘案的這個律師我想外界對您的這個"},{"start":3968.755,"end":3995.971,"text":"呃態度呢是非常的這個關心那我有看到日前你在受到這個媒體訪問的時候有提到就是說與其說是恢復這個軍審呢倒不如說是要來重新呃訂定一個全新的這個軍審的這個呃這個制度喔也就是說這個軍法官呢呃不會受到這個外部包含這個國防部的這個干涉要維護這一個呃審查的這個獨立性所以呃本席很好奇喔"},{"start":3996.391,"end":4024.28,"text":"那未來到底我們的軍事法庭也好或是軍事檢察署也好會是獨立於國防部之外嗎還是說未來的這個軍事法院或是軍事檢察署他會納入一般的司法體系之下這部分有想法跟規劃嗎請問部長現在的軍事法院是一個在國防部底下的一個准"},{"start":4025.513,"end":4052.768,"text":"他沒有一個法定的法的效力所以大法官之前對於軍事審判的這個軍法官是不是具有法官的獨立性這一點有所質疑所以在這一點上面我們認為呢要確保軍法官的獨立性是很重要的所以我才說要設要將他提高到法的位階成為軍事法院組織法"},{"start":4054.529,"end":4081.75,"text":"那我現在進一步想說還有一個審檢分立的問題也就是說我們一般強調是說檢察官是負責偵查追溯那審判是負責這個個案審理那這兩個之間呢也要分立不屬於這個同一個體系所以是不是也要研議建構一個軍事檢察署的組織法"},{"start":4082.751,"end":4097.959,"text":"那這樣子的一個兩個組織法把它提高到法的位階來之後呢這個先確保這個組織面的一個獨立性那另外人事的獨立性的部分呢可能要訂定一個軍法官人事條例也就是說"},{"start":4099.419,"end":4122.008,"text":"軍馬關的這個甄選從甄選一直到養成然後後來到這個他對他的身份保障然後乃至於到這個相關的評鑑跟淘汰都要引進外部的機制也就是說他不會是由這個國防部的內部的人士來管理而是透過一個"},{"start":4123.628,"end":4138.934,"text":"引進外部單位多元的一個審議委員會來公平的一個確保他的這個獨立性的一個情況之下來做相關的這些包括對他的這個"},{"start":4141.924,"end":4156.74,"text":"養成也好包括對他的這個身份保障也好包括對他的這個相關的評鑑淘汰也好都不受這個國安部本身的一個控制那這樣才能夠確保他的獨立性這是現在的想法"},{"start":4157,"end":4177.086,"text":"所以部長您的意思簡單來講換言之就是說未來我們的軍事法院、軍事檢察署是完全獨立在國防部之外不像過去是像過去我們的軍事法院其實是隸屬於國防部所以是完全要獨立以前是在國防部的鞭子底下可是我們軍事審判法其實主管單位還是國防部不是嗎"},{"start":4182.188,"end":4203.824,"text":"沒有 審判法它是一種程序法它不屬於司法院啊軍事審判法它是一種操作性的概念所以軍事審判法的重點是在於它軍事審判法裡面的內容它必須要維持它裡面內容的程序的正當性所以它是一個操作性的法律那由人"},{"start":4204.682,"end":4222.134,"text":"人來操作這個程序的這個法律的時候那個程序面的部分就要確保他的這個正當性那這樣的一個正當性的一個操作也就是說軍事審判其實他是一種特殊型態的一種審判的一個體制但是他還是要維護"},{"start":4223.475,"end":4243.282,"text":"維持住憲法所要求的政黨法律程序的要求所以我們會把它修改到就是說跟至少要跟憲刑的這個刑訴法相關的一些政黨法律程序要求要有一致這樣子那譬如說有舉幾個例子第一個譬如說"},{"start":4244.942,"end":4263.428,"text":"階級審判,過去的軍事審判法是說這個衛官以下是由地方軍事法院然後校官以上是由高等軍事法院那事實上這個也被大法官認為這個是有違這個階級管轄是有違憲的一個部分那這個部分我們會加以修改"},{"start":4263.968,"end":4292.824,"text":"所以我們還是會尋向一般法院像我們譬如說三級三審的方式來進行未來也是會這樣子因為我有看到說未來會用這個法律審或是這個市市審來做這個輔助市市審跟上市審的救濟的部分應該是這樣就是說按照現在即使有一些相關的規定譬如說違反效忠職者國家罪這個部分呢就等同於這個叛亂罪等等的那這些罪在一般的司法機關裡面也是隸屬於高等"},{"start":4293.684,"end":4322.191,"text":"軍事法院為第一審然後之後上訴審那最終審可能是到這個司法院的最高法院那所以他可能是一個審計那一般的其他案件可能是在地方軍事法院那地方軍事法院審完之後應該是要如何這個我們還要跟社會各界做一個溝通來確認到底是幾個市市審來進行那就這個部分呢還有要考量是不是要這個"},{"start":4323.786,"end":4324.21,"text":"有一些這個審判的"},{"start":4325.706,"end":4355.386,"text":"一個設計上面要這個能源的組成要如何這個我們也都要已經在做相關的規劃那我們要跟司法院跟法務部還要再做溝通是 看起來這個要恢復這個軍事懲罰好像還沒有那麼快因為我看到說我們還要制定軍法官的人事條例還有這個軍事法院的組織法我們還要訂定軍事警察署的組織法等等還要跟社會對話還要跟司法院這邊來做溝通那是不是說短期內這個還有一段時間還有一段路要走"},{"start":4356.006,"end":4381.864,"text":"是跟委員報告我們就是說沒有辦法定出一個時間的原因就在於是說因為這些都要跟這個我們草案現在基本上有一個初稿那出來之後我們要跟專家學者來做諮商諮商以後我們要跟社會各界做溝通然後還要送到大院來進行審議所以那這個中間還要涉及到相關的一個"},{"start":4383.626,"end":4411.705,"text":"軍法官的這些不管是檢察官或者是這個從事審判的法官他們的這個養成的這個部分那這個部分我們都還需要跟司法院也要法務部做溝通所以的確是還需要一些時間因為我們畢竟是11年了都沒有這個能量已經逐漸萎縮所以我們現在要恢復的話要重新啟動其實還是一個大工程重新啟動是一個坦白講是一個大工程"},{"start":4413.714,"end":4439.533,"text":"好 那還有一個 給我一點時間 主席再一分鐘因為我有看到司法院他有統計說近三年來每一年大概有三百多件起訴的軍事案件我想請教一下這三百多件的這些起訴的新的案件軍事案件到底它的類型是屬於哪些 它的樣態是什麼樣子這個不如我們會即將請司法機關提供完案件的類型跟數量所以這部分的話 部長您這也不是很清楚"},{"start":4439.813,"end":4441.817,"text":"因為我們本來想了解涉密還是供迭案還是怎麼樣因為我覺得這個數字一年300多件其實還蠻多的"},{"start":4451.418,"end":4479.7,"text":"因為我們現在要確定的是屬於這個入行法第二篇的軍人犯植物上之罪那所以比較著重在這一塊的部分那一般的刑事案件還是歸司法機關來處理所以要恢復軍人犯植物上之罪這個部分到底是有多少類型是有多少我們會再跟司法院來做一個OK我就想這部分如果說您這邊有拿到資料或是我們辦公室可能會跟司法院要"},{"start":4480.38,"end":4492.128,"text":"掉這個資料因為我覺得對這個案件一年三百多件的這個洗漱的軍事案件是讓本席真的是比較好奇到底是那些案件OK 好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝羅委員好 現在請馬文君委員上台質詢"},{"start":4508.837,"end":4509.821,"text":"謝主席 麻煩請部長請部長"},{"start":4521.183,"end":4539.483,"text":"今天其實我覺得我們第一時間有點短在過去不管是業務報告或是年期國防總檢討這兩個非常大的議題其實從來沒有排在同一天過那其實這樣能夠探討的時間比較少不過我們也希望說未來"},{"start":4540.163,"end":4563.19,"text":"召委可能還可以再排一些相關的時間可以讓大家可以充分的討論因為畢竟他對我們整體的國防的政策還有他未來的走向或者我們所有的預算的編列其實他都非常重要所以我們還是希望可以慎重那接下來我們看到最近的那個新聞裡面有看到這個"},{"start":4569.673,"end":4577.494,"text":"中共方面對於資通電軍網路站連隊對陸作業我們不管這個新聞是真是假因為"},{"start":4580.354,"end":4599.012,"text":"這個部分我們在今天的公開質詢就不討論他的內容不過我們要看一下他更深層的一個部分就是說他對岸公佈這些人的照片姓名性別身份證等個資而且還指出其中的職位他甚至是負責人還有戰隊隊長"},{"start":4601.927,"end":4607.108,"text":"這個部分如果我們要對我們單位的弟兄去著想的時候因為現在網路作戰它已經是一個常態或者甚至是非常重要的一環那他們在軍中不可能是終身職他不像其他一般的工作那如果他不適合或者說他離職以後這個部分他是被對岸終身追責所以這個部分可不可以考量他們可以向國安局或情報局的"},{"start":4631.914,"end":4644.552,"text":"負責對陸人員一樣他用就是用別名去識別因為國防部對於這些相關人的作業人員應該提高他的國安等級的相關防護或者給予適當的鼓勵這個部分部長怎麼看"},{"start":4648.73,"end":4662.5,"text":"這一點我同意這一點因為我想自動電軍也是納入我們這個國家勤工法的相關的條文的使用所以我覺得不管他執行任務的安全要以保障那退離職會"},{"start":4665.05,"end":4676.378,"text":"之後呢我應該也要提供這個有關一些相關的一些協助他們可能不是離職而已啊就是我們我們現在講的是包括我們的國安局國安單位的或者像一些情報人員其實他如果在從事這樣的工作的時候他不是用不是全部用真名應該要怎麼樣去保障他們的身份因為他一旦離職以後離職我們沒有辦法保護因為其實他被"},{"start":4692.448,"end":4707.878,"text":"終身追責這個部分其實他只要不在我們的國內他可能會受到很大的威脅這個部分是不是也應該要重新去考量他們需要受到的防護或者應該要什麼樣的獎勵因為你畢竟要留人才其實也不容易這個部分請部長在針對這個部分可以再去做一些相關的研究好不好是那個那目前"},{"start":4721.641,"end":4747.35,"text":"日前賴總統宣布剛剛其實委員也有委員提到就是全面檢討修正軍事審判法要恢復軍法的部分處理現役軍人涉犯叛亂利敵泄密廢止職務抗命等等這些跟軍事相關犯罪之刑事案件那未來現役軍人觸犯陸海空軍刑法之軍事犯罪案要交由軍事法院審判"},{"start":4749.759,"end":4776.133,"text":"因為剛剛部長也做了一些說明我想請教的是因為本席或者一些相關的在國防部過去有很多包括部長包括一些相關的人員就是在管理階層其實他們也發現到軍紀一直沒有辦法很有效的去做一個管理其實可能"},{"start":4777.153,"end":4787.579,"text":"在這個部分是不是應該要做什麼樣的一個修正可是當時我們看到其實包括賴總統包括顧部長您其實都說要審慎的評估甚至你還說到其實是不同意軍法復辟"},{"start":4798.826,"end":4801.451,"text":"可是剛剛提到的 您提到的說怎麼樣去做它的修整它甚至不隸屬在國防部底下我想請教一下目前全世界有哪一個國家是用這樣的制度"},{"start":4812.284,"end":4828.418,"text":"有嗎?全世界目前有哪一個國家是像剛剛部長您提到的是用另外一個審判的方式或者吝嗇一個軍事法庭之類的這樣的一個方式來做全世界目前有哪一個國家是這麼做?"},{"start":4830.142,"end":4845.649,"text":"維持這個一般的司法跟軍事審判的國家在民主國家有美國英國加拿大以色列韓國跟新加坡等等都有他們都是怎麼做他們是用剛剛部長連說的方式是這樣子嗎這樣的制度嗎我想"},{"start":4849.778,"end":4877.186,"text":"每一個國家的他的這個不是部長我現在只是說因為過去我們有軍法可是在洪仲秋案的時候很多整個社會的氛圍讓他把這個軍法去把它暫時當然還有可是平時已經是在一般法院剛剛部長提到的方式那樣子的制度我想請教目前全世界有哪一個國家是採取這樣子的一個制度方式目前"},{"start":4879.887,"end":4885.487,"text":"我想不是軍保我說您剛剛提到的這樣子的方式目前有哪一個國家這麼做"},{"start":4886.474,"end":4909.27,"text":"我想因為每個國家我們大致上法制上有分成英美法系跟大陸法系部長我沒有要討論這個部分這一塊在法律的部分上面大家很清楚我現在說的是您剛剛提到的制度現在目前在全世界的民主國家有哪一個國家是採取這樣的模式有嗎"},{"start":4911.051,"end":4926.563,"text":"我想我們會去看看這個相關的這些大陸法系的國家他們所適用的如何維護這個軍法官他在審判當中的一個身份保障這個部分我們會來研究我們如果是自己又創立一個因為過去大家就是覺得尤其他是在國防部底下因為你是對現役軍人嘛我們來看一個影片好不好部長這個可能昨天看到的"},{"start":4940.669,"end":4962.059,"text":"軍事法庭看到還蠻恐怖的"},{"start":4963.306,"end":4976.336,"text":"部長您沒有不是現役軍人不可能會按照我們現在的所以他為什麼會有這種理解因為軍事法庭他審理的就是現役軍人現在對大家都是這麼說可是"},{"start":4978.217,"end":4994.243,"text":"他的身份很特別他是民進黨很重要的一個政治評論員他出來講這樣的話甚至說這個如果牽涉到遣件或者牽涉到什麼共諜案在這裡我想要請教部長一個問題當時黃曙光前召集人黃曙光前總長他講到一個跟中共相關的一個"},{"start":5004.606,"end":5027.997,"text":"問題他說有人把資料給了中共大使館這個部分我不知道我們有沒有去追究這個部分因為中共大使館可見不是在中國大陸本土而是在其他的國家那到底是誰交給中共大使館或者這只是假的如果是假的就沒有馬文君牽涉到共諜的問題如果是真的那到底是誰"},{"start":5032.259,"end":5042.249,"text":"如果我們可以查看看那時候我有沒有出國有沒有去這些相關的國家這是第一點如果像到中共大使館那個通常都會有監視器的你的資訊是怎麼樣獲得的這個部分請徹查清楚因為這牽涉到我們的"},{"start":5052.299,"end":5062.944,"text":"資料是不是有外洩如果你第一艘的潛艦資料都外洩你後面第二艘跟第八艘要怎麼繼續做或者你要從頭來過這個都沒有交代清楚可是我們預算已經編了第二個他這個政治評論員他怎麼知道這個案子都沒有動為什麼他會知道如果像這樣子拿國家的一個很重要的機密案"},{"start":5078.888,"end":5084.992,"text":"他不知道真假甚至不懂潛艦他都可以大剌剌的從過去到現在至少已經講了快兩年他都不用負擔責任嗎你給社會大眾是什麼樣的一個認知這會不會影響我們所有整體的國防安全這個也請國防部再去了解一下最後不好意思跟委員跟召委接一點點時間我想請教部長"},{"start":5103.726,"end":5109.99,"text":"第一艘潛艦原型艦它幾乎編列500億的預算有沒有被刪過一毛錢潛艦的預算當時在委員會裡面並沒有被刪都沒有被刪嗎?幾乎原型艦都沒有被刪過一毛錢當時明知道因為過去在民進黨完全執政的情況之下我們也知道只要提出這樣刪減案"},{"start":5135.534,"end":5135.554,"text":"好"},{"start":5149.127,"end":5156.913,"text":"抱歉部長我想在這裡只要做出澄清就是我們的原型艦從頭到尾沒有被刪過一毛錢對不對是總共493億如果連設計費30億還包括海軍的顧問費其實已經高達500多億那個連一毛錢都沒有被刪當時在"},{"start":5170.103,"end":5174.025,"text":"民進黨完全執政的情況之下為什麼我們提刪減數包括我們在場的委員比較資深的就是我跟王定宇委員其實民進黨也有提刪減案高達三十幾億所以我們只是要監督預算當時我們也知道我們刪不了可是為什麼還是提刪動主要是如果沒有提案問題就沒有人會注意所以在這裡我們希望在立法院今天的委員會可以"},{"start":5199.421,"end":5217.512,"text":"重新好好的澄清原型艦連一毛錢都沒有被刪過在過程當中大家都希望他可以做到好而且是可以維護我們國家安全是一個有效的一個防衛的武器攻擊武器所以在這裡謝謝部長然後我們今年編的預算其實也是凍結對不對"},{"start":5224.076,"end":5240.423,"text":"就後續建的部分是要凍結50%嗎凍結50%對我們今年的影響並不會造成什麼樣的一個這個前進的玉山凍結主要它是要到院會做一個專報才能夠解凍這個部分好像還沒有潛力"},{"start":5241.423,"end":5244.485,"text":"因為過去應該是委員會就可以去動因為當時大家的共識是你在原型件還沒做好然後就編了大額的預算他不是今年他不是20億他通過的是2840億14年的時間所以大家會比較慎重"},{"start":5260.572,"end":5263.614,"text":"因為當時的共識是這樣部長您也同意說他通過海事以後再去動之這筆預算如果在11月他沒有辦法通過的時候他甚至連動都不能動也不該動所以其實我想大家應該在聚焦到怎麼樣讓我們可以獲得一個有效的"},{"start":5280.284,"end":5305.877,"text":"還可以符合我們作戰需求裝備這樣子的一個立場我想大家都是一致的這個部分還是希望請部長可以去理解因為過去沒有潛力我們也是第一次造潛艦啊我們也沒有潛力啊所以沒關係就是都有第一次嘛後續艦的這個解凍我們不希望有太多的不確定性因為到院會去解凍這件事情"},{"start":5306.917,"end":5328.263,"text":"如果在11月我們能夠順利交件我們當然是希望11月交件的時候我們連其他作業都來不及包括你作業費想要做什麼都來不及所以部長您放心這個沒有前例的情況之下因為我們也是第一次自己就是遣件國照嘛這也沒有前例我們大家就共同的去"},{"start":5329.763,"end":5341.092,"text":"讓我們可以在這個武器裝備上面 尤其是潛艦 大家好好的去監督然後也希望他可以做出一個好的潛艦 好不好好 謝謝 馬委員大家等我們一下 我們先測試一下麥克風 看起來麥克風壞掉了喂喂喂"},{"start":5360.807,"end":5384.34,"text":"好 謝謝那我們接下來請王定宇委員上台質詢好 謝謝召委麻煩部長有請部長"},{"start":5395.561,"end":5418.772,"text":"第一個我們看到昨天美國國務院他其實是大概近幾年來口氣最重的來批判中國解放軍在2月26號無預警的在屏東外海74公里的地方臨時突然的劃設一個實彈的操演區域他把聯合戰備警巡團轉做實彈軍演"},{"start":5421.053,"end":5443.163,"text":"那其實在那一個禮拜我們看了一下資料2月19號共軍在台海進行聯合戰備警巡大概每一週都一次但是21號在第二島鏈塔斯曼海域也就是澳洲跟紐西蘭中間他們在那邊也是進行實戰軍演而且真的是在澳洲的大門口開了炮2月25號"},{"start":5445.464,"end":5463.91,"text":"共軍派出南部軍區的一個海軍支隊來到越南跟菲律賓之間的南海進行實彈演練那26號就突然間在高雄屏東外海40海里大概74公里的地方無預警的突然宣布了一個射擊訓練的場域等等"},{"start":5465.014,"end":5487.999,"text":"那這是2月份大概從19號到26號發生的事情昨天3月18號不知道是約好的還是國際的共識之前那個操演是讓世界各國都予以譴責支持台海的和平穩定澳洲對中國也展示了一個抗議的態度但昨天18號國務院"},{"start":5490.854,"end":5510.244,"text":"重批中國做出的是個魯莽不負責任的動作而且支持台灣一切的自我防衛的措施瑞士更特別瑞士是一個永久中立國罕見到瑞士的外交部長外交部長發言就代表國家"},{"start":5511.184,"end":5527.753,"text":"他不僅表達譴責這樣的行為支持台海的和平穩定南海第一島鏈等地方的和平以外瑞士還表達說他們有把中國駐瑞士大使館的人叫來罵就表達他們嚴正立場然後我們台灣的國防部在3月17號"},{"start":5529.52,"end":5549.141,"text":"大概這是第二次的立即備戰操演去年12月其實有一次了立即備戰操演我看媒體寫都說這個禮拜是第一次應該是去年的12月21日左右是第一次那立即備戰操演本席是支持這個做法也就是當威脅方有可能由演轉戰"},{"start":5550.743,"end":5565.69,"text":"那我們的陸海空軍就要有能力從平時轉為戰備轉為備戰狀態所以這一個3月17號部長在今年度有人說小汗光宣布了立即備戰操演我的問題是"},{"start":5567.557,"end":5585.546,"text":"解放軍是不是有什麼徵後或者你們有什麼樣的情資見到什麼樣的危險徵後必須進行這樣子的嚇阻包含國際上力量部長可以說就說或者不清楚不清楚我們看到這個局勢那你宣布在3月17號開始立即備戰操演"},{"start":5588.86,"end":5609.607,"text":"是有什麼樣的情資跟增厚嗎?3月17號到21號這個是屬於計畫性的備戰草原它是預定的?對那非計畫性的備戰草原就是如剛剛委員所提到如果它實施一個針對性的一個軍事草原的這個活動那我們會按照它的這個"},{"start":5610.717,"end":5633.503,"text":"操演的強度我們現在有一個灰色地帶映儲的一個地中高那我們就會想由總黨下令之後我們就會進行一個立即備戰操演來做一個對應也就是說由指揮官下定這一個他們操演的可能的狀況那我們也立即做出回應來訓練我們的那個是由參謀本部直接來處理還是交給各作戰區"},{"start":5634.583,"end":5658.07,"text":"由總統下令,然後各州安區層級以下要做立即陪戰朝延的一個動作那等於是把敵情,也就是說解放軍的動作,如果有針對性的,我們會做對應的動作我們針對我們所獲得的一些相關的一些情節所獲得的情節,然後由指揮官他自己去想定可能發生的一些"},{"start":5658.95,"end":5685.497,"text":"一個情況他如果要進行因應這個部分做一個這樣來強化他的一個一個實戰化的一個訓練對我們國軍的戰力實戰化訓練是有幫助的目前就國防部的監測狀況解放軍不管在人員物資各方面的動作上有沒有異狀在禮拜一嘛就禮拜一嘛"},{"start":5686.244,"end":5713.982,"text":"禮拜一它聯合戰備警巡那這個聯合戰備警巡當然首見的就是說它是在上午的時候從六點多開始實施過一次然後到下午的應該是兩點它又再實施一次那所以這個是一個比較首度看到的一個狀況所以當然我們剛好也在實施栗子級備戰草原所以可以剛好做相對應的動作"},{"start":5724.304,"end":5739.868,"text":"我們有看到中國的外交部好像有在回應這個這應該都是套好的吧就是說他問一個問題然後他就回答說因為國務院對下架的那個"},{"start":5741.089,"end":5769.206,"text":"不支持台獨的那個部分他認為是境外的勢力來所以他當然他們永遠都套好的啦但他把這個軍事動作詮釋為對G7對美國的一些外交的回應他的記者會當然很長啦有很多的問題那他特別有一題是說他的從事的這個操演"},{"start":5770.467,"end":5793.038,"text":"主要針對是什麼?那一題他的回答是說他是針對美國他針對所以國務院18號也譴責他魯莽不負責任但是我現在回到這個國務院的回應也是第一次看到美國國務院這一次講得比較重用這個所謂明目張膽且不負責任而且後面多一個就是支持就全面支持台灣的自我防衛但是"},{"start":5794.859,"end":5820.163,"text":"剛才講的是政治外交上的定義我的意思是說他聯合戰備警巡罕見的變成上午一次凌晨一次下午一次在軍事上你們認為他在幹嘛我我們我們有各種可能的判斷那他這樣的一個兩次的聯合戰備警巡如果從這一次看起來的話應該他"},{"start":5823.544,"end":5841.996,"text":"他特別外交部在回應的時候他講說這是一個軍事行動那事實上他是一個操演所以我認為他在現實的這個狀況之下現在這個狀況之下他能夠做到的程度是在這一個兩次的聯合戰備進行的情況之下加強他的這個強度來回應當下的這個情勢所以我們"},{"start":5851.202,"end":5871.522,"text":"當然還是不能夠掉以輕心啦不過看起來他一定要對這個相關現在的這個有關您剛剛提到的G7也好美日這個峰會所表達對台灣的知己也好還有這個美國國務院這個相關的動作也好他一定要做一些回應"},{"start":5879.951,"end":5893.704,"text":"我們現在所謂的軍審第一個軍法從來沒有停過陸海空軍刑法一直是在試用當中只是在馬政府時期把它改到一般的檢察官一般的法院去做處理"},{"start":5895.686,"end":5917.906,"text":"部長我這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛軍閥沒有廢過啦人家說要恢復軍閥 軍閥一直都在那裡就實體法它是一直是存在的那程序法它變成二元化了也就是說它平時移到一般司法機關暫時還要恢復那所以這個地方有一直在講說那為什麼要這樣這個是不是這樣子"},{"start":5921.106,"end":5948.995,"text":"當然一直在質疑我啦那我要說明的就是說從我們國防部的立場來看的話我們要平時如果不打造一個軍事審判的一個制度的話就在那暫時的時候幾乎沒有辦法運作老闆娘部長我在這個委員會十年左右了從大概每一年我都會聽到不同黨派的委員呼籲把軍神制度恢復也就是用軍事檢察官"},{"start":5950.155,"end":5974.787,"text":"軍事審判來處理軍人這樣可以維持紀律維持管理大概我們如果在這委員會時間夠久的話每一年都會聽到也會看到一些提案那這一次我看賴清德總統提出來的第一個他是限縮限縮軍人涉犯國安軍事犯罪才會採取軍事審判的程序那第二個呢這個還要國會修法"},{"start":5975.487,"end":5998.842,"text":"要經過立法院修法那我看行政院長說這個修法呢一個月內會把它review那我們私底下討論過我看到那個一個月內要把所有配套的法要擬出來其實那個是很多很多套法比我們想像的多太多因為很多新的犯罪樣態刑法的修改你要對接那個你們一個月內可以提出修法的計畫嗎"},{"start":6000.578,"end":6025.723,"text":"我們會提出一個修法的綱要綱要就很難了 那個量很大所以其實限縮在軍人涉犯軍事犯罪 國安犯罪那這個原因也是來自於中國對台灣的滲透不管是共諜案 泄密案等等我們發現軍人背景的確實是他們鎖定的目標所以法律是用來維繫國家安全那也要經過國會的審查"},{"start":6026.803,"end":6050.885,"text":"那我這邊有兩個疑問邀請部長也許現在不用回答第一個我們當然希望提升軍法官軍檢的考選跟素質也就是軍事法官跟軍事檢察官我們在考選的制度那個都要經過考選部去考的考選之後的訓練養成希望他們有具備法律的素養"},{"start":6051.997,"end":6074.331,"text":"以及就是說軍人有軍人的專業法律人有法律人的專業一個軍人法律人他的專業哪邊應該著重這個在養成的時候可能要把那個中心定出來第二個建議是獨立性這個最難我們未來的軍法那個沈司長在這裡我們未來的軍法官要還在不在指揮鏈裡面"},{"start":6077.918,"end":6097.404,"text":"我想我們大概也討論過啦 已經事實上討論過很多次這個是一個不好討論的命題啊就是說我們希望軍事審判要獨立嘛就像一般審判 檢察官獨立作業 法官獨立審判但是軍法官如果在指揮鏈 有學長學弟 有長官部署"},{"start":6098.809,"end":6118.49,"text":"所以他就會變成是一個有外部人員加入的一個人事審議委員會他會被懷疑,我不是說一定,他會被懷疑會有外部的干擾嘛所以他的這個有關他的相關的這些生煎啊,烤雞啊,那個"},{"start":6119.931,"end":6139.506,"text":"評鑑啊 淘汰這個都要有一個外部的一個機制你們現在還是沒有辦法回答說那未來的軍神有沒有在指揮鏈裡面我尊重好好研議這一題就是說我怎麼確保他的獨立性不會因為他在指揮鏈裡面要接受命令在判決在起訴上會受到"},{"start":6140.347,"end":6161.751,"text":"被操控的懷疑這一點可以很明確回答委員在這個審判這個部分不可能會在指揮鏈裡面法官不會法官不會檢察官是屬於檢查一體他是屬於行政權的一個部分他是一個外部獨立但是內部檢查一體我們就這樣來這個命題等你們剛要出來我們再好好的討論謝謝部長的時間 謝謝趙偉好 謝謝"},{"start":6169.007,"end":6180.573,"text":"好 謝謝王委員那我們現在請這個陳冠廷委員上台質詢那我們麥克風系統有點問題所以可能都要先用無線的我們大家休息時間再來修理你好 我們請部長"},{"start":6208.661,"end":6218.468,"text":"王偉有提到相關配套的修法大概要一個月左右會提出修法的配套鋼藥我們這樣理解是不是正確的"},{"start":6219.62,"end":6233.62,"text":"對,我們會提出相關的這些,因為我們已經經過一些,我們有討論了一些相關的一些綱要我們會提出來,然後來跟各界來諮詢這樣子"},{"start":6236.083,"end":6259.099,"text":"因為軍審法 軍審相關的制度其實現在不僅是我們國會議員那一般民眾也會有一些想要釐清或者是藉由這種質詢的方式來去了解狀況我想說這個地方我想要請教一下如果是共諜案的話像現役軍人跟退役軍人會不會用不同的審判標準還是用同樣的審判標準"},{"start":6260.06,"end":6281.038,"text":"那軍中的文職人員那是屬於要給軍審制度還是非軍審制度他如果沒有軍人的身份的話沒有軍人的身份按照憲法的規定就不會受到軍事審判是不會 就是人民就不受軍事審判嘛這是憲法的規定那非 就是"},{"start":6282.677,"end":6302.223,"text":"軍人跟非軍人共犯的話非軍人的部分也是交由一般司法機關只有軍人會受軍事審判最近我們聽到說國防部的說法是說觸犯陸海空軍刑法第二篇第一章有關的軍事犯罪的話會接受軍事審判"},{"start":6302.503,"end":6319.006,"text":"就職務上的犯罪如果現役軍官他觸犯其他的國家安全的法規不是屬於第二篇第一章的軍事犯罪而是像是國家安全法或者是機密保護法反生動法國家勤工法這個是要接受軍事審判還是一般審判"},{"start":6319.646,"end":6347.45,"text":"他有可能會跟陸海工軍刑法第二篇的那一個違反效忠職責罪或違反他的應盡的這個執意職責罪的這個部分會有一部事實的關係那如果說他有一部事實是屬於這個陸海工軍刑法第二篇的罪的話那就是一部事實就是有一部分的事實是國家國安法一部的事實是陸海工軍刑法第二篇的話那這個一部事實"},{"start":6348.708,"end":6373.773,"text":"連結到這個全部事實裡面的話就會認為應該用受到軍事審判那如果單純的是違反國安法不涉及入海公經審法的第二篇的話他就回到一般的司法機關去審判這樣所以會有一部我們講一部跟全部關係那如果他一部事實是國安法但是他也有涉及到入海公經審法第二篇的時候"},{"start":6374.213,"end":6390.994,"text":"那現役軍人的身份 那就會歸到軍事審判來就是這樣 軍事審判會優先於其他的一般的只要它有涉及到這個第二篇的 亂攻新華第二篇的了解 那主要是因為我們觀察到進來的很多共諜的案件"},{"start":6392.695,"end":6416.705,"text":"要嘛是用國家安全法來起訴要嘛就是貪污之罪條例那如果未來是違反類似條文但是沒有涉及陸海空軍的第二篇地章的罪責就是你剛才講的那個方式去也還是歸司法機關歸司法機關一般司法機關那我們再拿一個案例我們再請教一下部長吸收軍人或者是拍攝投降影片"},{"start":6417.523,"end":6439.642,"text":"那就我們的了解 我們的了解可能是錯誤的因為部長你是這邊 你是法律專家那可能這邊有其他的司法背景的人來請給我們如果有必要的話就請給部長這個相關的訊息那如果他們吸收券或拍攝投降影片那陸海空軍刑法有沒有明確的條文那這個東西過去是用國安法或者是貪污自罪來定那現在這個是用軍審"},{"start":6441.784,"end":6455.82,"text":"軍事審判的第二章有沒有部分就剛才你講的一部分我們入海公園刑法的二十四條現在在預告當中嗎那對敵人為效忠之表示那如果是現役軍人的話那就屬於會受軍事審判的"},{"start":6456.621,"end":6477.208,"text":"OK 所以說未來現役軍人拍的投降影片就是現在還在對敵人為效忠表示或不進行職責罪的話那就屬於第二篇那如果他是現役軍人的話那就是應該受軍事審判好 那所以說未來這個就可以用軍事審判的方式去處理就對了是 如果那個24條"},{"start":6480.047,"end":6507.85,"text":"對 他就是說就看他涉及的犯罪法條是不是落來的關係我們現在24條正在預告當中另外就是說最近除了軍人身份以外包含國家安全法 國家機密保護法反滲透法 勤工法這些上述法律的案件部長你覺得這些未來是不是要上升到法律層面然後去立法做一個國家專業法庭來去審理"},{"start":6509.488,"end":6529.052,"text":"您是說這個在一般的司法機關要對對對對就我們就君審貴君審問這個就是你的看法一般的司法機關要不要設這個專庭來處理這個部分我覺得這個部分是司法院的一個權責我可能不適宜幫他待會打呼"},{"start":6529.472,"end":6555.546,"text":"我們要請你待會兒答覆我們要聽你看在國家安全的看法需不需要您的看法這沒有對或錯所以我才只是因為我們也在修法當中我們跟省委員都有在一些跟國家安全相關的那我們是希望說要做這些事情的話它有它的必要性那我們現在已經有了這一個恢復精神的話那有必要要不要做這件事情你說在一般的司法機關要不要做國安專庭的問題是吧"},{"start":6558.007,"end":6583.583,"text":"在法律層面明定是不是要做國安專庭就你對司法的這些理解你的看法第一個其實就涉及到我們講內部事務分配的問題如果那個案件不夠多的話那麼在一般法院裡面的內部事務分配它會涉及到一些公平性的問題也就是說如果它是一個專庭它只審那個案件那個案件量不夠多的話那法官們之間他們就會"},{"start":6584.761,"end":6602.834,"text":"就會說那是不是這個勞役不均這樣第一個,第二個法官都會進行調動所以他的這個國安專庭的一個設置他可能培養他做了兩年三年之後或者甚至一年他可能就調動到其他的這個法院去所以他"},{"start":6603.514,"end":6626.909,"text":"要長期在一個位置專門辦的話事實上是不容易在過去的經驗上是這樣子跟委員報告我當年也在推動這個所謂的少年法庭跟少年法院那後來證明只有少年法院的一個設置才可以讓這個法官長期待在這個少年法院成為專辦少年事件的一個專業法官"},{"start":6628.03,"end":6653.014,"text":"因為你專庭的話他還是會有進行內部事務分配的問題還有調動的問題但是一旦成立少年法院之後他就會以這個為職制他就會長期的待在少年法院裡面這個專業性就比較容易養成不過我覺得這以上都是我個人意見這是基於過去我想我現在這個身份不宜幫司法院做過多的回答我剛剛講了強調純屬個人意見好 謝謝部長"},{"start":6657.495,"end":6686.305,"text":"部長我們再來針對這個國防出版品的這個分享的部分那這個我們盡快把它跟你請教現在我們台灣有編訂的是全國國防應變手冊那有提供電子版的免費下載那我很肯定因為這是推動全民防衛教育的第一步可是國防部最近也翻譯出版許多跟國防戰略全民防衛相關的書籍那比方說這一個Kobe的這個句子戰略這一本這一本我們也有協助來去翻譯"},{"start":6687.245,"end":6714.297,"text":"還有蕭美琴副總統也一直分享的這個抵抗作戰構想那我想請問說這些書局是不是可以開放這個民眾免費取得那現在國防部出版的書局主要還是用盈利的模式那比方說國家書店 武南書局那現在這個巨子戰略它的售價是400元那抵抗作戰構想大概售價是380元那我是說 我認為啦"},{"start":6715.337,"end":6726.404,"text":"國防部已經使用國家的預算去翻譯了那出版這些書籍版權的費用那雖然已經算是支付了是不是要考量一些公共利益來去推動我們的全民國防不知道部長怎麼看"},{"start":6727.409,"end":6747.894,"text":"跟委員報告這涉及作權的問題就是說我們這個發行這個挹注之後呢我們跟這個有相關的作權人不管是翻譯者還是原來的這一個這個他本身的原作他都有涉及作權問題所以我們是跟他買要買2600冊然後買了2600冊以後呢我們將大部分的都是加"},{"start":6752.715,"end":6775.557,"text":"交給官兵然後加強官兵的這個資能不是以利為主那其他的部分會有流通到市面但是如果放在網路上的話我想就會涉及到說你如果他一般都是只能夠看到摘要啦你如果要看到全文的話你如果能夠自由下載那這個就會涉及到侵害那個那個義子"},{"start":6776.918,"end":6801.403,"text":"譯者跟那個原作者的這個著作權的問題所以如果說是我們國安部自己發行的期刊啊等等像譬如說這個四年啟光總檢討這個當然沒有問題因為我們就讓大家自由一下我們不會主張著作權但是如果您講的這個有關於這個"},{"start":6803.945,"end":6819.821,"text":"這個他寫的這個Strategy of Denial這本書的話那這個就可能會有涉及助權我簡單的回覆就是目前翻譯的書籍我看版權是屬於國防部政務辦公室但是剛才部長提到的沒錯涉及援助授權限制所以說"},{"start":6820.862,"end":6843.943,"text":"如果可以的話 譬如說檢要的摘要或手冊那盡量不影響原作的版權的方式或者是使用公立圖書館的授權模式我想這些是我們在法律上可以允許的方向我們能做的 我們盡量去做那謝謝部長 那就時間到好 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員那我們接下來有請黃仁委員上台質詢"},{"start":6856.977,"end":6857.557,"text":"有請顧部長有請部長部長好"},{"start":6878.108,"end":6904.622,"text":"有關於賴慶德總統在任內這四年期的國防總監討在3月18號日公布第一次強調建構多域的巨上任性防衛的作戰準備的方向建構地面海上空中太空及網路等多重空間領域的防禦體系但共今從各基地"},{"start":6905.962,"end":6934.18,"text":"前推火箭軍陸航直升機也常態部署在第一線就是要加速郵訊轉戰讓國軍來不及應對請問國軍的預警的時間是否縮短那我再請教部長你即刻回答目前針對共軍犯台我們的預警的時間大概多少明確的講清楚"},{"start":6936.386,"end":6949.514,"text":"我個人覺得我們對於這個預警時間的這個縮短我們可以這樣子來回答但是我們認為是要準備多久的在做"},{"start":6950.682,"end":6974.662,"text":"這個作戰的整備這個時間我認為這個涉及機密我們不宜在這裡做回答不是 現在好 涉及機密但是你可以你可以大概縮短了大概幾分因為現在是在四年四年期的國防的總檢討那既然現在已經是一個非常時期由訓轉戰的一個"},{"start":6978.185,"end":6995.135,"text":"一個問題了所以你們應該要非常的明確我們國防的防衛的能力及我們大概預警準備的時間大概多少我只能這樣跟委員報告這樣子好了就是說我們會有一個關鍵預警徵口的一個判斷表"},{"start":6999.497,"end":7015.096,"text":"那我們會將 我們認為他這個所謂的遊訓長就是他從一個灰色地帶的起走然後他突然轉變成可能全面侵犯的模式或封鎖的模式那這些關鍵議題的針口我們都會把它做一個分析"},{"start":7015.336,"end":7032.914,"text":"但是詳細我沒有辦法跟委員做說明那麼這樣子的關鍵疫情症我們把它分成低的、中的、高的那如果到達了中或高的時候我們就會進行所謂的二級加強戒備或一級加強戒備那到達了一級加強戒備之後我們就這個時候再觀察它"},{"start":7036.377,"end":7047.855,"text":"有可能是不是會採取這個行動那這個的時候會進入到我們就要跟總統進行報告然後再來我們要先動"},{"start":7050.239,"end":7078.858,"text":"那我們不能夠等到他成真了我們才動這個來不及我們主要的目的是在說明這一點好 部長那自己詳細的狀況要形容我們要你現在還是沒有辦法大概的一個時間因為現在共軍的操員已經是常態化甚至有些是無意警化那對台灣來講我們擔心的是一種麻痺的狀況本是提醒還是必須要警示"},{"start":7080.659,"end":7087.627,"text":"中共由遜轉戰的可能性所以我們就是因為不想麻痺所以我們要時時的警惕自己也警惕國人當然我們現在是要更警惕"},{"start":7096.155,"end":7121.448,"text":"本席認為未來的戰場除了傳統的陸海空更涵蓋太空網路及電池等環境請問共青郵訊轉戰落成證的話要以武力翻台有哪些徵兆待會你回答我一下那另外就是國際應該強化對共青聯合戰備警訊的情報收集的判斷並加強後備的"},{"start":7125.47,"end":7138.937,"text":"後備動員的加速國青應加強收集的能量並共青郵訊轉戰可能納入希望可能納入的漢光遠襲有沒有可能"},{"start":7141.081,"end":7169.099,"text":"剛您講的這些都是徵兆跟焊光演習對對對 我們這些徵兆的判斷都會納入徵兆的判斷然後做相對的應對我們都會納入這個焊光來我們從高階圖上兵推一直到電腦輔助所演習一直到實名驗證我們都會納入這些響電這樣子然後來進一步做驗證所以希望能夠納入焊光演習"},{"start":7170.12,"end":7192.052,"text":"那國進必須思考包含這個低軌的衛星衛星的徵兆這個通信的太空領域對戰場經營和戰爭發展的影響能夠思考這樣的一個問題所在必須你要提醒國防那關於這個四年這個"},{"start":7193.533,"end":7221.883,"text":"四連旗國防的總檢討屬於目前來講是屬於原則性的報告實際上要怎麼做還要由各交給機關部門執行所以今天很難得得知具體作為但其實從內容概要可能要看出有些哪部分雖然是我國確實要面對的問題但有些部分過於一廂情願有些是過於過度與理想化"},{"start":7222.483,"end":7232.919,"text":"那你看是不是有這樣的一個問題所在您是說有沒有過於一廂情願或過於理想化這個部分對"},{"start":7235.171,"end":7260.565,"text":"我想我們四年期的廣場檢討就如剛剛報告的我們對於這個有相關的這個區域情勢的判斷也有對於共軍他可能採取的行動我們做了一些判斷之後我們採取的一些比較新的一些做法那剛剛你也提到了我們有"},{"start":7261.705,"end":7278.376,"text":"提出來這個多域拒止任性防衛的這個概念那我們會根據這些晃鹿島我們的聯合作戰行動的關鍵要項裡面然後我們會利用各種不同的這個兵推跟演訓來加以驗證所以我們會不斷地來檢討每年都來檢討我們的依據敵情的這個狀況你說的對好"},{"start":7286.761,"end":7303.66,"text":"那為什麼我會提出這個問題來第一個第一章的內容概要看得出寫上的是基於忍戰的思維難以擺脫民主陣營和極權陣營的對抗的想法但是目前國際局勢更多的是"},{"start":7305.762,"end":7320.549,"text":"競爭合作的關係所以從陣營或兩旗對抗角度來看書寫國防指導原則可能會把國際局勢的過度單純化所以本席認為過於理想化"},{"start":7321.67,"end":7335.133,"text":"平時可以有所作為 但台灣是海島暫時全島皆為前線 極可能遭到封鎖暫時如何可能與全球公益鏈接軌所以這個就是一個問題所在另外 主席再給我一分鐘時間"},{"start":7343.803,"end":7360.248,"text":"另外就是關於國防高層是否有所作為不當不當的行為國防院高層是否有所不當的行為那這邊有一份這個裡面一個職員的一個研究員的一個陳情書"},{"start":7365.696,"end":7380.252,"text":"請問一下前段時間是否收到國防院一位理子組長的陳情是關於部分研究員橫跨兩個以上智庫理子高層人員乃持續佔用辦公室和"},{"start":7380.952,"end":7396.49,"text":"植物宿舍以及離子高層將國防院所屬研究員辦理停止留心帶至國防部為己用那這個部分即使沒有違法當然對於國防院"},{"start":7397.111,"end":7415.558,"text":"作為研究單位的獨立性及職場的規範產生了不利的影響所以這個部分請問一下我們希望能夠做到真正獨立公正專業部長知不知道這個事情那如何懲處未來要不要清查我想先請陳平次回答"},{"start":7417.025,"end":7428.999,"text":"是 跟我們報告 這個是屬於國防院內部管理的問題我們已經責成他們成立一個調查委員會有沒有七上滿下的問題現在都在調查當中調查什麼時候會請他們立刻調查 然後調查完畢那什麼時候回報很快的能夠提供給我們國防部什麼時候回報"},{"start":7439.846,"end":7461.843,"text":"這個事情都已經一個國務院的研究院的陳情都非常講得非常清楚而且你們現在有沒有欺上瞞下而且你們現在還是一概彌彰所以麻煩你們盡速回報什麼時候給我向委員報告我們盡快請國防院完成調查兩個禮拜內向委員做報告說明好 以上 謝謝好 謝謝黃委員那我們現在請陳義勇康委員上台質詢"},{"start":7496.568,"end":7519.204,"text":"主席 有請部長有請部長是 陳委員好部長好AIT處長谷麗妍日前回應媒體的詢問有關這個川普總統的印太戰略"},{"start":7520.322,"end":7539.336,"text":"那麼他說根據美國已經解密的印太戰略的框架那可以他們參考請問我們的同仁看了沒有這份解密的這個是不是請看請這次來說明一下"},{"start":7550.287,"end":7568.607,"text":"委員好,有關剛剛委員所提示的這個機密版的部分我們是不是可以在會後再跟委員做報告這個已經解密了但是我們獲得的在獲得的過程當中還是有一些獲得的程序上面我們後面再跟您做已經在這邊了"},{"start":7571.334,"end":7599.686,"text":"是欧巴恩原来的国安会顾问他签合的解密了那解密了里面原来他这个事啊虽然是原来是列机密但是他不可以转给外国他现在机密解除已经转发了所以这个鼓励研究说请看这一份这里面呢把这个纲要版我先念给大家听啊这个英文的我们把它翻成他说目标啊是使台湾能够有效的"},{"start":7601.691,"end":7624.786,"text":"能夠發展有效的不對稱戰略以及能力以確保其安全免受威脅有韌性並具備有以自身條件與中國交涉的能力啊這句話接不接頭對不對話你自己的能力評估這份報告我建議大家把它看一下還包括日韓的那麼剛才這個"},{"start":7627.066,"end":7654.901,"text":"在這個報告過程中間我們特別要跟部長在這個建言就是說我們現在的因為不管你是經常戰備應急戰備提升了我們這裡面有一個交戰規則那現在大家對這個ROE也都強調了可是過去我們發現這個我們都把它放到最低層可是對空軍來講如果你攔截並不是要接戰就是伴飛"},{"start":7656.343,"end":7681.694,"text":"你的距離是多少500碼200碼還是允許他飛到20碼那麼海軍的艦艇半航以前美軍抗議因為我們接近到2000碼那大角度轉線都有可能碰撞像這些東西每天的狀況在變這個是需要有授權的那麼因此這個戰務令的法制化並不是光連山或是軍種作戰的"},{"start":7683.544,"end":7703.917,"text":"跟我們的軍法法務人員要有一個相關的互動那這個配套機制啊就是說戰務令啊要發展作戰指揮跟軍法配套的機制也就是準則教範要落實到教育裡面那現在這些東西在我們的紫灘教育戰院並沒有授課"},{"start":7706.854,"end":7734.341,"text":"ROE是行使自卫权以及主动攻击完成任务的权利那这个里面包括国防部我们的法律师包括国防大学就是法学研究中心战院职参教育以及联参要共同来修正因此所谓的授权并不是给低阶也就是说如果恒指所的功效因为某种原因不能发挥"},{"start":7736.035,"end":7757.035,"text":"各作战区各军种他作战部队的权责划分下售这个需要我们将来啊要律定这个那么甚至就说战争法武装冲突法以及海洋法公约的专业法务人员这是需要纳入课程的而不是参谋的业务"},{"start":7757.896,"end":7781.313,"text":"那么刚才前面有委员讲就是中共在2月26号在我们的这个经济海域那么这个做了一个临时的演训那么美方很多大家都有谴责或不同的看法那我们这个里面这次在船上的官员是引述联合国海洋法公约第56条58条但56 58"},{"start":7786.696,"end":7814.781,"text":"是在經濟海域但是58條最後refer到第87條還是以公海上的權利好了那現在講用經濟海域那麻煩了我們經濟海域在圖上我們只有釣只有漁權的經濟海域因為我們跟國家重疊跟菲律賓跟日本跟大陸你要把經濟海域重疊區劃出來你才能引述這個條件"},{"start":7816.127,"end":7830.733,"text":"那因此就是說圖像提供是很重要不是意識形態的那像我們陸軍是本土防衛作戰海軍他的接戰或交戰有公海有領海那空軍的防空"},{"start":7831.598,"end":7855.982,"text":"他又領空也可能境外的反制所以這些東西都跟圖跟ROE這有相關聯這個我提醒我們在這個部分一定要強化一定要從我們的法律師法學院還有國防大學的子參教育戰員一定要把這個當作課程來授課而不是用部隊長他的主觀判斷那一定要法條依據"},{"start":7859.107,"end":7884.176,"text":"那麼現在談到了這個COP我們如果今天去中心化其實去中心化的這個想定條件意思就是說你的指管中心有部分功能已經不能傳導到下級部隊了那這個時候的情質分享你沒有接COP可是你要有一個CTPCommon Tactical Picture我舉例我們的海馬斯"},{"start":7886.458,"end":7896.543,"text":"把裝備都來了 彈還沒到30公里 70公里 300公里這個系統跟陸軍現在的數位圖還沒有整合那同樣海軍的機動的魚叉飛彈"},{"start":7898.797,"end":7928.006,"text":"它的射程跟這個互相涵蓋那目標怎麼分還有遠程的防空飛彈如果這個時候各單位的授權分成負責不能妥協就產生重複擊中目標或者是漏掉哪個目標這個部分是很重要的那麼因為時間有限了我後面就不再用戲圖我再下去後跟您的幕僚我們做一些建議我特別強調ROE要變成我們的課程"},{"start":7928.866,"end":7947.291,"text":"一定要在國防大學或是法律系來教這個課程並不是連山的作業單位或是軍種的作戰單位他去定這個遊戲規則因為過去我們辦行連美軍都抗議說你太靠近了那每天他不是定性的那空軍的防欄半飛"},{"start":7950.222,"end":7977.563,"text":"500碼200碼老公游的時候搞危險動作搞到20碼這個東西長官不授權飛行員不能自我做判斷所以這個部分希望大家努力在ROE的部分納入課程而且是作戰跟法務要共同來協助那以上我提出建言謝謝各位好 謝謝委員我們下去之後我們就我們已經做還有應該要精進的部分再跟委員做個請委員做個指教這樣子好 謝謝"},{"start":7994.147,"end":8007.357,"text":"好 那這個這個 楚英委員不好意思那個部長先休息一下我們休息一下然後順便因為剛剛麥克風有一個問題我們就趁這個休息時間先處理一下先 我們先抓五分鐘先抓五分鐘"},{"start":8034.265,"end":8039.167,"text":"我先關掉 因為他軟禮抓不到這要換掉 要換掉的話可能要下午"},{"start":8050.293,"end":8067.347,"text":"那不然大家都先用無線齁現在時好時壞了對嘛 婉君嚇到了那我要下午的話去辦公室訪問好啊 好啊 沒關係不過有 最好沒有人訪問反正是我旁邊的 我都跟他講我先用手機"},{"start":8077.302,"end":8077.342,"text":"鮮奶油"},{"start":8100.964,"end":8128.626,"text":"對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對對"},{"start":8142.256,"end":8143.577,"text":"欸那你又開了應該是在這裡"},{"start":8493.523,"end":8501.146,"text":"好 那我們會議繼續那這個麥克風系統可能還是不太穩定所以待會就請用這個無線麥克風那我們現在請林楚瑩委員上台質詢謝謝主席 主席有請顧部長有請部長"},{"start":8522.448,"end":8536.257,"text":"林委員好部長好部長我想要針對我昨天在總質詢的時候問到的有關於紅色供應鏈去紅色供應鏈這個部分因為我想前面很多委員都已經質詢到了有關於就是我們這2025年的國防的四期的國防總檢討當中那麼對比2021年我們可以看到是台美的國際合作跟交流尤其在軍事上面其實已經是越來越明顯"},{"start":8550.165,"end":8574.122,"text":"那麼在軍事交流合作的部分它除了是有專節納入之外包括這當中也特別提到了軍事的融資還有就是總統提用權的部分我想美國政府對於台灣的這個軍事的合作已經展現得非常的明白但是怎麼樣能夠去紅色供應鏈這個部分本席還是有一些存疑的因為以本席所關注到的就是說現在很多的廠商"},{"start":8576.684,"end":8591.383,"text":"它是不是被列入所謂的紅色供應鏈或紅色廠商這個部分它其實是有一些可以鑽的巧門比如說它是來自於中國或者是中國內部旗下黨政軍所經營的"},{"start":8595.608,"end":8615.766,"text":"孫公司甚至於是曾孫公司他到境外比如說新加坡之外現在更可能的包括像美國或其他地方他來設立一個公司之後然後在台灣再來設立子公司或相對的方法我想這些手法跟巧門因為部長過去的資金力我想您一定很了解"},{"start":8616.286,"end":8629.771,"text":"但是我要提到的是在我們做採購的過程中或合作的過程當中現在政府內部到底有沒有這樣的一個SOP或是有這樣的組織比如說昨天像經濟部他會針對投審會去看這個公司是不是所謂有中資可是通常我們第一時間我們不會真的去採購的時候特別去問經濟部除非有一些疑惑的時候"},{"start":8643.135,"end":8648.997,"text":"那麼如果是這樣在已經名列入在所謂的接軌供應鏈安全體系當中要去紅色供應鏈的時候到底有沒有一個跨部會廠商的查核系統而這個系統該如何建置有沒有一個想法跟方向"},{"start":8662.277,"end":8688.553,"text":"我想大概要分兩個部分一個是我們採購的貨品本身嘛那這個要去紅那另外一個就是說來投票的廠商要去紅大概是這兩塊的部分是那就這兩塊的部分這個我們採購的貨品的部分呢我們現在跟採購是多次的討論之後我們現在大致上有一個全排性的一套這個"},{"start":8690.434,"end":8716.034,"text":"禁用這個大陸地區香港澳門產品跟旅業驗收的作業指導的一個要點那這個要點我們現在就是按照這個要點要去跟這個所有這個會辦理採購業務的人來做一個宣講那就這個部分會涉及到說從一開始的規範然後到後面的驗收要如何進行驗收"},{"start":8717.336,"end":8729.168,"text":"這個大概都要有一套的一個程序那現在委員剛剛提到的另外一塊更麻煩的當然就是這個廠商的這個部分我想就是採購要點在那裡但是我相信我們的相關的這個國軍的單位絕對不會蓄意去"},{"start":8735.515,"end":8747.879,"text":"都是事後被發現只好用這個要點去解約但是前期的預防就是部長你是要回應的有沒有可能有機會預防或者用什麼方式可以有機會跨部會的先做查詢應該是說這個問題要從這個他本身這個股東的這個結構面上面來看"},{"start":8764.878,"end":8768.364,"text":"那如果按照我過去在國安會的經驗就是說當這個股東的這個結構他上層的結構啊"},{"start":8773.507,"end":8796.601,"text":"可能是這些什麼VBI公司或者是這些其他國外的這個公司那這個的時候呢可能就要稍微要注意去看就是說它在上一層它是長什麼樣子那這個部分呢有些時候呢就據我們的國內以前是投審會現在應該是失了吧"},{"start":8800.522,"end":8825.394,"text":"他要做一個要去跟他們去做一個相關的一個諮詢就這一塊的部分我必須承認他有些有難度譬如說BBI公司BBI公司他就不容易去清查這個部分所以這個部分還要透過一些相關的國安機制他們要協同去進行調查"},{"start":8825.754,"end":8853.282,"text":"好 我會提出這個質詢就是也是提醒國防部跟其他的跨部會在處理有時候去紅色供應鏈的時候恐怕不能只有國防部就像部長所說的還是需要其他國安單位的協助尤其是我們在做軍事採購的部分我相信國防部也會特別的仔細那當然我也希望是有一個跨部會的機制能夠來做一個協助啦因為這個確實不是那麼容易都比較容易是亡羊補牢或是事後才發現或是有人舉發這個部分 對"},{"start":8855.583,"end":8872.173,"text":"那另外一個其實本席要關注的問題就是剛剛呢有委員其實就特別審好幾個委員都提到了有關於我們現在軍事審判制度的部分甚至於有委員在質詢的時候也把這個名嘴的這個網路的"},{"start":8875.035,"end":8887.037,"text":"節目都放上來了那麼我想這個大概就是大家需要在社會上還做進一步釐清的就是當然委員他自己擔心的是他不是軍人那麼他會不會就成為這個軍事審判的對象剛剛部長也講得很清楚啦就是說如果不是軍人就不會是但是如果是一般的民眾涉入了相關的事件當中那麼透過軍人然後達到洩密的時候那像這樣的案件該如何處理"},{"start":8904.003,"end":8909.39,"text":"如果是現役軍人犯這個實務上的犯罪的話那就屬於受軍事審判了"},{"start":8910.322,"end":8936.71,"text":"但是如果說一般的民眾他在參與案件期間他會變如果在這個案件當中他是其中但他不是現役軍人必須要現役軍人的時候犯罪好那言下之意這已經講得非常清楚了就是說這個軍事審判即使這個制度重啟因為他是要職務上犯罪所以他一定是現役軍人他有可能職務上犯罪不是現役軍人邏輯上是不可能犯我們講的所謂的軍事犯"},{"start":8937.21,"end":8944.152,"text":"好所以說這個也是非常的清楚包括就是只要你不是現役軍人就不會納入這個軍事審判的制度但是根據本席所找的這些媒體的報導大概我們一年當中大概有300多件的相關的這個所謂軍事審判的案件就是軍人涉入的案件"},{"start":8957.577,"end":8961.961,"text":"那麼以我去年4月的時候曾經就質詢過了那就是我們根據這個陸海空軍懲戒法跟軍人權益的處理辦法我們有曾經招募過國防法務官28名那麼如果加總起來所現有的包括我們的將官上位62名中校的54名衛官是7名再加書記官等等"},{"start":8982.859,"end":8995.249,"text":"在面對現在現有的軍事法官的數量來得及或者是說能夠應付現有的三百多件的案件嗎那麼在這個部分的準備因為其實當時我在質詢的時候就有特別提到那我那時候只是在想說我們在招募這個所謂國防法務官的過程當中其實"},{"start":9004.657,"end":9026.304,"text":"如果對比這個一般的律師的考試當時是剛好兩者是撞齊的嘛所以我就覺得說那這兩者之間會不會我們招募上面會有一些所謂誘因不夠或者是風險不夠但現在看得出來其實應該是是不是事前就已經要做這個準備但是目前到底我們的軍法官數量夠不夠陰影"},{"start":9028.724,"end":9048.993,"text":"跟委員報告,剛好因為現在陸海公軍懲罰法,那個軍人權益事件處理法通過,那預計今年七月要實施那所以地方軍事法院要成立全保費,來負責處理這個再申訴跟附審的案件那麼另外高等軍事法院要處理這個行政訴訟的這個部分"},{"start":9050.874,"end":9078.156,"text":"那所以這個部分這個應該開始就剛好有一部分的能量來進行一個練兵尤其特別是行政訴訟部分那現在又要跨到這一個軍事審判這個部分來那這分三點跟委員說明第一點他三百件裡面到底是哪些犯軍事職務上的犯罪這個我們要跟守安查明因為有可能是犯一般的刑事犯罪這是第一點第二點我們以後軍法官的這個部分要確保他的獨立性"},{"start":9078.576,"end":9104.531,"text":"所以我們剛剛才會提到這些相關的組織法或者是人事條例那第三個就是我們可能會有一個多元選才的管道就是說我們的來源有可能是透過考試有可能透過這個他本身是律師那我們經過甄選那也有可能是國安法務官也經過甄選但是這個部分我們為了確保甄選的公平我們應該會請納入外部的人員來成立這個人事審議委員會"},{"start":9105.952,"end":9126.623,"text":"來進行一個多元的選裁那確保這個軍法官的品質這樣子好 所以我想本席提出這樣質詢也是認為說這個不能真的只有所謂戰時尤其是現在平時戰時也進入一個灰色地帶那麼提早來做這些包括相關的軍法官的這個所謂人才的培育或者是充實是相當重要的謝謝這個部長的回覆 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":9133.96,"end":9137.943,"text":"謝謝林委員 那現在請翁曉林委員上台質詢主席好 接下來有請部長有請部長 謝謝"},{"start":9160.683,"end":9164.666,"text":"謝謝部長部長我在這裡我想先首先先請您這個說明一下您知道就是本席其實也有提軍事審判法的修法我有看到您提出來是有關軍事審判法的三四條的修正好請問一下就是就您的這個法律的解釋我本席所修的軍事審判法第三四條的修法"},{"start":9189.271,"end":9196.615,"text":"這個是像現在的國防部所講的是暫時跟平時都要恢復軍事審判嗎我的修法裡面有這麼說嗎"},{"start":9200.556,"end":9220.966,"text":"您的修法34條主要是就犯罪事實是一部那現行是要因依刑事審判法追訴審判時全部依刑事審判法追訴審判那您要修改成犯罪事實是一部因依這個就是所謂的軍事審判法來追訴審判的時候全部依軍事審判法來追訴審判這樣"},{"start":9221.966,"end":9237.084,"text":"所以呢,我現在修的這個法的目的,我本來是要幫你們國防部解決問題的結果現在好像外界都認為說,我修的這個法是代表說在連平常的時期都要適用軍事審判,是這樣的意思嗎?呃,我想我沒有這樣說了"},{"start":9242.021,"end":9255.291,"text":"所以部長您的看法呢是不是我現在修的版本只是在強調暫時的時候如果當軍人同時違反陸海空軍刑法跟普通刑法的時候才交由軍事審判審理而不是跟你們現在所講的軍事審判法的修法的方向是不一樣的"},{"start":9262.043,"end":9276.543,"text":"對 那因為這一條有關就是屬於所謂的普通法跟特別法兩最競合的部分那一 特別法優先的原則的話優先適用軍審方法進行追溯審判我想這部分的修法在我們日後的修法方向也是會如此的"},{"start":9276.843,"end":9280.127,"text":"好 那麼所以我再次強調我的修法 我修軍事審判法我並不是認為說是要在平時時期就要恢復軍事審判制度要不恢復軍事審判制度未來軍法官的參審制如何這個我覺得還需要更仔細的討論那接下來我想要請教"},{"start":9295.865,"end":9305.232,"text":"這個部長一個問題就是說你們這次所提出來的未來在軍人職務上犯罪的時候不管是在戰時和平時都要交由軍事審判審理請問現在實務上是出現什麼問題嗎交由普通法院審理有治安難行的地方嗎"},{"start":9312.942,"end":9326.616,"text":"我想我在這裡最主要的一個考量就是說如果平時不重新打造一個新的軍事審判制度的話暫時幾乎是不可能有那個能量來從事軍事審判的因為"},{"start":9327.717,"end":9345.161,"text":"他就荒廢了嘛因為他已經荒廢了這麼久了那所以如果現在我講了所以我一直在講說我不是要回復過去那個被人詬病的軍事審判而是我要重新打造一個合乎正當程序公平審判原則的一個新的軍事審判那暫時的時候才能夠才能夠真正的能夠有這個能量來進行這個所謂的因為現在還是在平時暫時二元化的狀態我想是這樣因為民進黨政府執政已經到現在九年了"},{"start":9357.803,"end":9382.146,"text":"這九年裡面 民進黨政府從來沒有考慮過軍事審判沒有考慮過軍法官的他們的生涯他們如何要培養在民進黨政府執政這些年來 我們軍法官已經停招12年了在上個會期 本席不斷地強調希望國防部能夠先恢復軍法官考試請問你們今年會恢復軍法官考試嗎"},{"start":9383.397,"end":9400.787,"text":"這一點我們還要跟這個考試院那邊做一個所以你們連軍法官都沒有想到說要先恢復考試就要來修改教育制度跟委員報告我覺得我比較傾向也是一個多元選材的一個觀念也就是說"},{"start":9401.687,"end":9418.32,"text":"我過去以來長期從事這方面的部分單單考試這一個部分不足以來確定這一個軍法官的素質所以軍法官的養成跟軍法官的多元選材這些相關的配套是我們現在在思考的一個重點也就是說謝謝部長"},{"start":9419.901,"end":9436.746,"text":"按照您的說法您就是不相信現在軍方這個國防大學他們可能有能力去培養軍法人才說要從外界再去尋求其他的管道來這個徵選軍法官我希望有一個我希望有一個司法院"},{"start":9437.606,"end":9455.615,"text":"基本上也有多元選才 多元領選司法官的途徑可是參加真實的人非常非常的少現在人越來越多了請你們去跟司法院去要資料我現在要講一下 現在每年有多少件的軍人案件司法院之前曾經發布了一個新聞稿說每年有多少個軍人案件"},{"start":9464.229,"end":9484.776,"text":"我們現在沒有辦法百分之百確定剛剛已經回答林柱英委員的問題就是說他現在有關軍人涉犯這個犯罪的時候有可能是一般刑法的犯罪有可能是這個入海公行法第三篇的也有可能是入海公行法第二篇的所以我們要去確認一下我想我在這邊再講個事實從109年到113年期間其實這個"},{"start":9492.719,"end":9511.625,"text":"違反國防違反國安相關特定案件的案子頂多也只有103件那麼就司法院他們這三年以來他們所收到的有跟軍人有關的案子不翻剛剛部長您說的是什麼樣子的一個犯罪行為總之是交由普通法院來審理的"},{"start":9512.805,"end":9536.545,"text":"也不過是佔他們的0.12%也就是一萬件的新收案件當中與軍人有關的只有12件這是地方法院受理的高等法院受理的呢一萬件的案件當中只有27件是與軍人有關的其實這個案件數基本上是佔整個的法院的受理案件數是非常非常低的"},{"start":9538.277,"end":9545.38,"text":"我認為說你們今天是不相信我們的法院法官有足夠的能力可以去去審理與軍人有關的這個案件嗎"},{"start":9551.503,"end":9569.79,"text":"我剛剛跟委員報告了就我個人觀念我還是比較重視在平戰轉換這一個部分平時要建立重新打造一個新的軍事咱們的制度暫時才能夠有那個能量來我們看一下您過去怎麼說您過去說這個您不相信軍人的軍事審判有獨立性的可能要恢復軍事審判您現在是說要全新打造一個全新的軍事審判制度"},{"start":9578.769,"end":9586.932,"text":"可是過去從來沒有規劃 現在突然之間要冒出來說要打造全新的軍事審判制度而且在非常短期之內就要做完 有可能嗎而且這個一個很嚴重的問題就是你現在軍事法院的審判跟普通法院的審判未來的職權要怎麼樣去釐清 以剛剛講的那個什麼中間人的犯罪案件來看"},{"start":9604.517,"end":9632.274,"text":"他的正犯是在軍事審判由郊遊軍事法院來審理那他這個中間人他可能教書犯或幫助犯用郊遊一般的法院來審理這不會出現一個這個未來在這個訴訟審理上面的矛盾嗎所以有關這個部分就是涉及到司審跟上訴審的救濟問題這個部分我們會跟司法院跟法務部來做一個協商所以我在想你們其實目的還是想一網打盡"},{"start":9633.72,"end":9659.729,"text":"不管勝犯是不是職業軍人然後只要是中間有可能跟這個軍人有關的未來所有的案件都會併到軍事法院來一起審判從你們現在的規劃來講其實就可以看出來這樣的矛盾委員您應該很清楚這個憲法就保障非軍事非現役軍人不受軍事審判這我非常的清楚所以這也是我們現在在考慮你們現在所提出來的這樣的問題"},{"start":9664.445,"end":9666.665,"text":"請不要忘記您過去曾經說過什麼您不相信軍事審判制度的你認為說軍事審判它還是有這個軍法官還是有服從這個軍階服從上級還是有軍階服從上級掌管命令的義務所以我希望您能夠這個警禁之前說的話不要說現在換了一個總統就換了一套說法然後軍事審判制度基本上我沒有反對但是必須要"},{"start":9693.931,"end":9695.373,"text":"深刻的必須要這個精心的來這個研擬規劃我們不希望看到軍法官來背黑鍋"},{"start":9704.844,"end":9725.99,"text":"因為法院不敢判的 現在交由軍法官來判法院判輕的 未來要求軍法官要判重我不願意看到我們的軍事審判制度 未來變成民進黨這個遂行要去整肅一己的手段 好 謝謝我想我會本以初衷 我們就是保障人權 兼顧真實的發現還有這一個軍機的維護 謝謝"},{"start":9729.724,"end":9735.451,"text":"好 謝謝文委員 謝謝部長那這個接下來我們請陳俊宇委員上台質詢"},{"start":9757.844,"end":9784.635,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們有請顧部長有請部長部長午安部長首先我想針對QDR結合國防部的相關報告來請教我們部長依照我們國防法第31條的規定國防部應於每任總統就職10個月後向立法院公開提出4年的國防檢討"},{"start":9787.717,"end":9812.572,"text":"總檢討那今年是自民國98年以來第五次公佈那不過由於現在還有兩年一次的這個國防報告書立法院每個會期一次的這個國防部業務報告那我想請教部長您認為這個QDR的內容它的重要性為何有沒有可能未來與我們國防部的這個報告書來進行整併"},{"start":9816.081,"end":9829.841,"text":"你如果問我的話,因為QDR是現在國防法裡面明定的,美國已經沒有QDR了,就四年期,美國就實施這個國防報告書,那我們要做國防報告書,"},{"start":9831.383,"end":9857.63,"text":"那因為QDR是法律明文規定那我們當然還是要做那如果說大院覺得這樣的QDR跟國防報告書不需要這樣子重複的話那我們還是會來出國防報告書的話那我想我會如果大院同意做這樣的修正我會接受這樣子因為如果重複性高的話是整病比較不會那麼因為像美國已經沒有QDR"},{"start":9860.251,"end":9877.087,"text":"那我們這次這個QDR所強調的其中一個主軸是建構敏捷的應變戰力為了應對中共這種頻繁的侵擾而且甚至在模擬我們這個台灣的這種搶灘或是訪台灣的這種巷戰這種模式"},{"start":9883.092,"end":9901.45,"text":"那另外針對這個共軍可能由演轉戰假戲真作的這種情況發生那國軍應於這個3月17到21已經在舉行的這種首次的立即戰備的這種操演藉此證明我們聯合作戰的這種計畫確保"},{"start":9902.831,"end":9928.494,"text":"各種作戰的這種部隊能夠隨時從訓練轉而變成備戰的這種狀態那對這種情形目前我們在進行中的立即備戰的操演進行今天已經第三天了我想請教部長就是中共有沒有可能因為我們這種立即備戰的這種操演有更多的這種侵擾的情形"},{"start":9931.077,"end":9953.677,"text":"我沒有辦法排除中國可能以任何的理由或藉口來進行任何的一些軍事的一些操演那從事這些灰色地帶的洗腦也好這個所謂的一些比較強度比較高的軍事操演也好"},{"start":9954.478,"end":9970.472,"text":"都我們都隨時在按照我們的應用我們聯合勤監的手段來加以來提早的來查資然後我們來進行應對所以我們才有所謂的非計劃性的立即備戰朝野也就是說"},{"start":9971.713,"end":9994.196,"text":"我們過去他來操演,那我們好像沒有任何的這個動應對那我們現在就是總長的這個要求就是說那他來演習,那我們相對應的也要做相對應預判他的可能的動作,我們來做相對應的操演這就是實戰化訓練裡面的一環,我想這個部分是很重要"},{"start":9994.776,"end":10000.368,"text":"那計劃性的這個禮拜要進行的就是說是由我們自己會有統財部我們下狀況下狀況以後來訓練誘導他然後來進行這個那指揮官"},{"start":10006.89,"end":10023.966,"text":"磨練指揮官的決策能力跟各部隊的應對的能力我想這個是很好的一個一種模式這樣子好那未來我們有沒有可能針對歷期的這種備戰操演模式常態來執行增加這個"},{"start":10025.547,"end":10052.232,"text":"超遠的次數我們現在預計是每半年實施一次這個計劃性的立即備戰超遠那另外針對中國可能的針對性的軍演那我們也會由於總統下令是他的強度我們也會下令進行所謂的備戰超遠所以有分成計劃性的計劃性就是上半年一次下半年一次那非計劃性就是看他一些針對性的軍演這個軍演的就是我們判斷依照我們的聯合檢診所認為他的強度"},{"start":10054.532,"end":10070.6,"text":"到達一定強度的時候我們中產可能會下令就說立即備戰操演那部長針對計畫性跟非計畫性的部分我們有沒有可能在未來要操演的過程裡面每次都會這個提前公布這個相關的期程嗎"},{"start":10072.253,"end":10078.241,"text":"我們計劃性的備戰操演是聯度的訓練裡面但是對外會公佈嗎?沒有主動對外公佈"},{"start":10086.295,"end":10101.013,"text":"另外我想就叫部長一年期的EWE相關的議題國防部在去年元月份已經恢復一年期的EWE根據行政院報告顯示去年的成效還算不錯"},{"start":10102.434,"end":10121.282,"text":"規劃今年起要入伍的這種新兵將在八週入伍訓練的過程時增加這個手槍還有這個機槍實彈射擊並接受這個無人機還有反裝甲火箭及次針火箭操作等課程那我想請教就在"},{"start":10122.122,"end":10134.47,"text":"我們158週的這個訓練過程裡面我們現在加入新式的這個武器訓練之後在時程的安排上我們是不是可以有充分的時間可以讓他們來做訓練"},{"start":10138.539,"end":10158.01,"text":"我們現在就是說提高入伍的訓練,單就入伍來講的話,我們是不管志願役、一年級、義務役跟四個月軍事志願役,我們都統一調為八週所以我們新增的這些項目都是一樣,包括戰傷救護、快速反應設計、政案教育等等"},{"start":10158.55,"end":10176.323,"text":"那強化這些單兵的戰鬥技能他完訓之後他至少要能夠成為一個合格的戰鬥兵這個目標來做那151一年級的部分的話他還可以再加他的駐地訓練然後再加他的基地的訓練那使得他不但只是那個他還能夠操作更這個具備這個"},{"start":10181.591,"end":10200.688,"text":"他看他這個部隊的這個型態他能夠執行他的一個戰備任務時間充裕就對了一年期的義務相對於四個月的軍事訓練營業我想訓練的時間是相對的充裕而且我們希望他能夠紮實不要讓他覺得是在浪費他的時間跟生命"},{"start":10202.009,"end":10219.59,"text":"另外一個亮點就是我們加入這個無人機的訓練課程那未來我們在國軍現有的這個無人機教官人力方面是不是充足那是否已經有完善的所有的教材還有在新訓中心是不是都已經建置好相關的訓練場地這個"},{"start":10223.274,"end":10245.078,"text":"因為現在陸海空軍都陸續要建制,陸軍的部分有陸軍,海軍在海軍陸戰隊,空軍的部分可能比較大型的無人機所以這些無人機的型態越來越多,現在無人機我看日薰月異吧,你可能過個半年、一年,整個迭代的發展就往上一直走"},{"start":10245.658,"end":10259.271,"text":"所以無人機的訓練我們是越來越重視無人機的運用 做在運用上我們越來越重視那教官的這個部分呢坦白講就是說我們要結合民間的量人然後一起來做"},{"start":10260.652,"end":10275.217,"text":"那逐步來培養我們技友那當然如果照最後的目標當然都是人人都是能夠來實作來進行這個操作這個無人機這個部分是我們的一個目標但是這需要時間這需要時間"},{"start":10278.198,"end":10300.294,"text":"那最後一個問題我想就交部長就是那對於這個無人機的部分那未來退伍之後的這些軍事官有沒有可能會針對無人機的操作也納入教召我想這應該要納入這應該要納入教召以後14天我們有比較聰明的時間來讓他回復"},{"start":10303.177,"end":10326.562,"text":"這個他原本擁有的戰績這個部分只要想在尤其無人機的發展迅速的情況之下那麼我們有相關的這個新的配護進來之後我想對於後叫召進來之後我們也要實施新的這個就不只是無人機啦也包括再有新的一些人襲式的一些武器等等的那還有他"},{"start":10327.142,"end":10348.049,"text":"他是屬於哪一個部隊的他也要到那個部隊去熟悉他原來熟悉的部分這樣子好 謝謝部長那我們針對相關的訓練課程還有一些這個暫時需要的這個我們的這些武器方面我想針對訓練方面一定要著重一定要扎實對 現在"},{"start":10349.81,"end":10366.857,"text":"現在事實上重視的就是一個實作然後實戰的訓練這樣子好 謝謝部長好 謝謝陳委員那接下來我們有請鍾嘉斌委員上台質詢"},{"start":10375.786,"end":10381.79,"text":"主席 在場委員先進 列席了政務司長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請顧部長 跟軍備局鄰居長 和國防採購室的趙中將好 顧部長 軍備 還有採購 謝謝射中了"},{"start":10394.69,"end":10412.511,"text":"部長 兩位局長 主任 我的題目 軍工產業自治優先 外購為輔 調整採購的條件 打造自主量能第一個請教一下 五大信賴產業 軍事工業是不是其中之一是好 所以我們在軍事工業上 我們要打造我們國防產業自主的能量跟量能是這樣嗎"},{"start":10414.198,"end":10441.895,"text":"是嗎是好 那我們來看一下在今年公布的四年級國防總監的當中也明白地寫出了這些國防自主跟多元化武護包括國防法第22條要自治為優先建立獨立自主的國防建設沒錯吧是我們國防產業發展條例第一條要國內研發產製武器裝備還有後勤資源我們常常以為先進武器要跟外國採購忽略了後勤資源正是我們優先可以自己產製的項目是不是這樣"},{"start":10443.27,"end":10455.968,"text":"所以我們要透過國防產業發展條例第四條第二項創造國內產值跟製造國內的就業機會好 我們來看一下部長一般的產業跟軍工產業有什麼差別呢一般產業會尋求全球分工"},{"start":10457.391,"end":10479.449,"text":"國際市場規模最大化所以需求跟採購會尋求價格最低對外採購但是軍事工業他希望是短年供應以國內市場為優先同時暫時要能夠自力生產追求的是供應不中斷所以部長是不是我們的國防採購跟一般的民間採購追求價格最低的採購是不一樣的我們要求的是要求供應不中斷比較重要是不是這樣"},{"start":10480.411,"end":10502.964,"text":"對,比如說我們的現在中科院所建立的廢彈的自製能力,那以後無人機的產業,這樣的我們也要自主能夠…聽到廢彈,聽到無人機都覺得很科技,我講一個不是很科技的,但是大家都熟,網路上啊,我們有一種叫精藥,很多人要進去,發行者可以發行,每個人的精藥都不一樣,因為是數位製作嘛,我隨時可以調整你的權限,"},{"start":10504.085,"end":10530.901,"text":"但是實體上我們生活中有很多類似精要的東西叫鑰匙 鎖我不知道部長有沒有搭過台鐵或高鐵那個列車長要開門有把鑰匙你覺得他每列車的鑰匙都不一樣嗎其實每列車都一樣甚至台鐵更好玩他不只開門用那個鑰匙電器箱的鎖都是用同一把鑰匙這樣子為了節約他只要避開一些閒雜任人去碰他的電器箱但是你認為我們國軍的軍械庫可以用這種方式嗎"},{"start":10531.96,"end":10556.003,"text":"可以用這樣子嗎?一把鑰匙可以開所有的軍械庫,你就可能嗎?應該是不行不行,對好,我們看下一頁其實呢,我幾十年前當兵的時候當安全士官,我們交接一大串鑰匙我很好奇啊,前面的安全士官如果把鑰匙拷貝了後面的人被人偷開了,責任是誰?責任分不清楚所以在美國的美軍呢,他們早就採用了上世紀的一個構想,叫做什麼?"},{"start":10557.698,"end":10576.305,"text":"鎖心跟鎖頭分開什麼意思每個掛在軍械箱的鎖頭是固定的但是每個軍械是交接的時候我是連鎖心跟鑰匙我帶我自己的鎖心放進去所以責任很清楚聽起來很簡單的概念美軍大量採用我很好奇的知道這個事情為什麼"},{"start":10577.489,"end":10602.884,"text":"因為美軍的最大供應商是我們台灣的製索公司啊我問他說 那我們台灣有沒有採用啊他說採用也好 不採用也罷反正我是對他來講訂單他不在意國內的這個訂單所以我這裡今天不是要幫他做請求國防部的採購我要告訴他說 像這種很簡單的東西的軍需採購台灣是有能力供應的但是另外一個東西不一樣 我們來看一下防彈衣"},{"start":10603.965,"end":10625.984,"text":"防彈液它主要來自於克維拉或是超高分子的聚酰所做成的它的結構是來自於它的受限來自於它每一層疊疊要用膠去合膠的壽命大概四五年所以防彈液每四五年要全部更新不然沒有防彈的效果部長這知道嗎問一下你們的軍需兩位局長主任是不是這樣子"},{"start":10626.664,"end":10627.224,"text":"其實呢大家會想說如果這防彈液可以用五年假設"},{"start":10647.725,"end":10656.838,"text":"二十萬件我五年採購一次二十萬件最便宜嘛一次採購二十萬件最便宜嘛但是當這個量的時候呢國際廠商拿不到單國內剛開始起步的廠商拿不到單"},{"start":10660.783,"end":10688.894,"text":"為什麼 他沒有辦法一次供應20萬件但是你叫他一年供應4、5萬件 供應得了所以我要說的是什麼 往下看一個 我們的軍需的平站的轉換你平時它是個消耗品 你可能剛好有量換發可是暫時的時候你需要大量生產但是暫時如果你沒辦法得到原料 進不來你要靠本土的軍需產業來供應 是不是這樣子所以平時的時候 我們就要開始去維持製造我們國內製造商的產量跟產能怎麼做 我們看一下"},{"start":10689.634,"end":10711.766,"text":"如果說我們未來的軍需採購你調整你不是以獲得價格最低量最大的目標你去思考怎麼樣我們每一年防彈液的採購如果你改成每年採購五分之一或四分之一國內的廠商就有機會了部長你這樣了解我的意思沒有我們要培養國內的本土軍需產業不是只有在功能技術上去要求它"},{"start":10712.406,"end":10727.861,"text":"有時候你們的採購條件不同也會造成他有沒有辦法生存部長您覺得未來的軍需採購如果說這個技術是國內的廠商有能力的只是受限於我們採購的數量規格以及他們的工藝你們要不要檢討"},{"start":10730.396,"end":10749.545,"text":"我想如果說國內有這樣子的一個自主生產因為我們軍備局的部分本身也有生殖中心軍備局要再生產防彈衣嗎跟委員報告剛剛委員的指導我們都有考量我們當初我們的抗彈板就是考量要給國內生產"},{"start":10751.106,"end":10755.768,"text":"對 那我們有分國內 我們有調查國內的產能所以我們這次絕標 抗氮板的陶瓷片是國內佔60% 國外進口佔40%那歐斯採取長約 我們是2加1年讓國內的廠商可以投資錢下去我們會增強我們暫時國外進口沒辦法進來 我們國內的韌性我們都是用這樣的方式去做考量的 以上報告"},{"start":10774.156,"end":10791.239,"text":"謝謝部長 我最後一點時間跟主席戰略一下其實呢 講到防彈 大家有什麼防彈衣其實未來的軍需供應上它主要是抗彈板呢 是用在裝備防護上哪一種裝備要防護 油箱其實大部分我們的無人機 無人船它未來的防護呢 就是用這種方式去組成"},{"start":10791.94,"end":10798.822,"text":"所以我卻說以防彈材質的這個產業來思考最後的結論請研議各項軍民採購要考量本土產業現況並透過調適我們國防採購的規模以扶植本土產業進入台灣的軍需供應鏈為方案這樣的思考可以來擬定然後給本席一個說明嗎"},{"start":10812.861,"end":10839.88,"text":"好 我們想大概委員的意思應該就是說建立一個比較長擔的一個蓋子 汐水長流的長擔但是這裡面我要強調的台灣有很多隱形冠軍誰知道美軍用的這個鎖呢是台灣的廠商做最大供應商所以 但是有些的台灣的本身的供應商他正在起步所以你們的採購規格要能夠扶植本土產業我指這個目的 可以嗎"},{"start":10840.56,"end":10848.746,"text":"好 我們來事後跟委員來做一個說明好 謝謝好 謝謝鍾嘉斌委員的質詢 我們部長先請回好 繼續我們邀請楊瓊英委員質詢楊瓊英委員"},{"start":10864.235,"end":10868.196,"text":"楊瓊英委員?楊瓊英委員不在,那我們請張祺凱委員質詢我們有請顧部長"},{"start":10896.502,"end":10910.512,"text":"今年國防部的預算增加將近400億這是歷史上的一個新高事實上這個三減的幅度也是最近幾年的新低今天我們駐美代表余大雷"},{"start":10911.604,"end":10935.416,"text":"有一個華爾街日報的一個專訪今天最新的消息他特別在強調我們台灣最近這十年國防預算已經翻了一倍了已經翻了一倍了可是呢 我跟你講前陣子出現一個非常奇怪是不是有人到美國去告洋狀而且還說了謊所以導致"},{"start":10937.284,"end":10942.051,"text":"美國國防部的這個次長提名人柯博吉說台灣的國會大山的這個經費令人不安"},{"start":10950.307,"end":10971.679,"text":"怎麼會出現這麼離譜的這麼離譜的謠言跟委員報告您這個螢幕上講是3.46應該不對吧應該是3.84億吧終究把這個算進來也是近年來的新低嘛對不對最重要是剛剛講的沒有不是新低不是新低喔不是新低84億就是新低最近幾零的新低啦最重要沒有部長"},{"start":10972.079,"end":10993.392,"text":"最重要他是創了歷史以來的新高嘛我剛特別跟你講我們駐美代表為什麼要你現在講的是指預算佔新高那三減數沒有創新低啊最近幾年的新低啦我們預算一直在穩健的成長但是呢我們今年算的是84億你沒有算新低啊你這個講話也不對你說只3.46億是不對啦"},{"start":10996.994,"end":11015.106,"text":"對啦 就是三減 你說不是歷年新低 可是最近幾年的新低啦這個是學你們卓院長講的 卓院長沒有卓院長一直在講說什麼凍結是歷年新高 我跟他講過去光是有八個年度比他就超過了結果他就改成最近幾年凍結的新低 這個我們接受啦"},{"start":11017.808,"end":11031.511,"text":"沒有啦 部長現在不要爭議這個 現在最重要是你增加你現在還有一些針對性的刪減跟那個凍結凍結還要經過大院專案報告還要能夠同意所以部長 那個跑電話問你你已經撤過清管會主委 你也撤過國安會的這個秘書長你印象中有凍結的預算沒有被 後來被解凍了嗎"},{"start":11038.669,"end":11066.889,"text":"以前凍結預算都在委員會就解凍啊沒有沒有在委員會解凍你嚴重被誤導了我去查了一次 院會要求凍結以後要院會報告以後解凍了很多問題是後來都解決您舉一個例子那我就不得不說那你舉一個例子哪一個案子要在院會專案報告同意以後才可以解凍你告訴我你隨便去翻每一年都好幾個案子不是專案報告啦那個部長你完全弄錯了"},{"start":11067.91,"end":11075.013,"text":"立法院的立法院叫你去院會提專案不見得是一定是有專案報告可能是提了一個聽我講完聽我講完有兩個層次一個是你提了一個報告來就解凍了對不對這個是目前你可能最希望的連報告都不要第二個是"},{"start":11084.912,"end":11097.66,"text":"就是你提了報告來以後 經過立法院的解凍像昨天我就很清楚跟交通委員會講交通委員會在上個會 去年差不多這個時候他經過一次的會議 他們解凍了31個凍結案啊"},{"start":11100.376,"end":11104.38,"text":"你已經當了金管會主委當了秘書長跟委員報告您這邊凍結了899億去年才凍結2億都是委員會書面報告或專案報告沒有在院會做專案報告才可以解凍你的凍結數高達899億其中"},{"start":11121.314,"end":11146.322,"text":"業務費的部分應該是佔了744億業務費是所有部位全部凍結了30%那會單獨叫你一個國安部長去那邊報告嗎當然是整體提出來以後整體就處理了嘛這很簡單 你不要想太誤導最重要的部長張委員也不是院長我不曉得院長要如何主持這個到院會專案報告他跟你講從以前的往例啊這個解凍只要是你解決的問題為什麼會凍結"},{"start":11148.783,"end":11166.358,"text":"就是因為我們每次問你們問題的時候你們要尋答的時候不回答問題的時候當木頭人不回答對不對我們的調查權你們也不給我們所以是用預算權去凍結完之後叫你解決問題啊重點是你說解決問題就解決 最重要的來我來幫王定宇打到不平你講說那個預算被大砍我問你如果砍的是對的內銷專案買無人機對不對"},{"start":11173.527,"end":11192.465,"text":"那個原因是因為美國他們自己本來報給我們多少116億對不對後來是他們自己改的啦改了55億那這個要不要刪減連王定宇都贊成啊對不對結果變成是柯建民出來講所以王定宇罵他說你認知是不是有問題"},{"start":11193.854,"end":11217.114,"text":"明明是美國自己的報價把他剪下來每一部分都很民主民高當然是要刪減啊各位委員報告我們在外交國安委員會這些的都經過大家朝野在外交國安委員會大家都同意現在主要的部分是到了院會之後你比如說我一直在講的國外的旅費跟訓練費用的支出"},{"start":11218.635,"end":11244.217,"text":"他最重要的就是他寫一個不得流用你這個不得流用就完蛋了我們現在我已經坦白講到國外協訓了你現在講的都是立法院成立以來每一年都是這樣審議算沒有很多規定沒有流用的沒有不得流用這四個字出現過嘛通山的巷子裡面沒有這樣子我不要說要你下台我說我拿出來不要講一個如果有十次不得流用你要不要跟全民道歉"},{"start":11244.938,"end":11261.034,"text":"不要講一次喔我去舉十個例子出來你要不要跟人民道歉通山的項目過去這個是立法院長久審議算的怎麼會沒有流用這個字眼呢這是預算法裡面明定的啊每一年都這樣沒有在通山的項目裡面去講不得流用的"},{"start":11261.926,"end":11281.797,"text":"有 阿爸部長這樣好不好 我提十個 你跟前面道歉好不好我提十個 你跟前面道歉好 OK 現在最重要的 凍結是可以解凍的部長你的責任應該是盡快提出解凍案我們院會或者是委員會趕快通過 趕快解決問你一個比較重要的 人民股關係可是那個院會要求我們要花費30%以上才可以去申請解凍那這個又設下了一個門檻現在已經三月底啦 不就是差不多時間了嗎沒有啊"},{"start":11291.862,"end":11306.232,"text":"議連的 部長 部長你做一下顧為政務官啊 每一年禮拜都是這樣我們會遵照委員的指示 儘速提出解凍案也希望議員會儘速進行解凍對 就是這樣 對 你來這邊是要解決問題的問一個民眾現在最關心的 這幾天啊有出現兩個很重要的議題 一個說我們的義務役啊要從一年延長為兩年"},{"start":11320.643,"end":11335.659,"text":"第二個是女性可能要服兵役部長,這兩件事情有可能成真嗎?沒有沒有任何這樣的規劃存在沒有這樣的規劃?對,沒有當初這個,一位是四個月"},{"start":11338.078,"end":11354.599,"text":"討論一段時間就變一年了對不對這段時間美國有沒有關心希望我們自己防衛自己把定義延長到兩年我沒有接觸過美方給我任何這樣的訊息那部長因為你應該任期應該還有三年你能不能保證在你的任期內不會我們的義務役的"},{"start":11357.462,"end":11369.872,"text":"議期不會從一年變兩年我怎麼知道我的任期還要多我是政務官沒有任期所以保證你的任內我們的兵役不會從EWE不會從一年變兩年我們現在正在確實的檢討一年級EWE的訓練成效沒有做任何有關延長為兩年的EWE的一個規劃存在也沒有女性扶EWE的規劃的案子存在"},{"start":11384.159,"end":11410.088,"text":"我給大家看一個數據這是國防研究院的兩篇報告都是2月底密集發的兩篇研究報告第一篇 志願士兵的徵選條件結論是什麼建立想死評估女性人力服役物役的政策開發人力的來源第二篇 結論是什麼女性服役物役是未來兵役制度改革的可行方案之一"},{"start":11411.929,"end":11433.124,"text":"國防研究院是你國防部出席的你官方的智庫欸他為什麼要研究這個結論為什麼要女性要去服兵役國防院每個研究院都會發表他自己依據他的所認知的部分他的專業他做任何的一些報告案但這並不代表國防部的政策那你們前陣子還有聯合八清清楚楚寫嘛對不對"},{"start":11439.707,"end":11464.922,"text":"你們也提出了一部分就是說要針對這個做研究啊不是嗎 理性不一不一啊沒有嗎我國防部沒有做過這樣的研究啊好啦 部長現在最重要我剛剛給你看的都是數據聯合報的報導還有你們國家研究院國防研究院的這個報告委員拿報導來做來問問題的話部長部長我們做個結論做個結論我們時間主席已經站起來了我們做個結論所以你的任內能不能保證"},{"start":11466.144,"end":11492.381,"text":"兵役不會從一年變成兩年 女性不會服兵役國防部現在沒有任何有關女性服藥服義務役以及要將義務役延長為兩年的任何規劃存在沒有這樣的規劃嘛那你的任內會不會推動變成是兩年我不知道我的任內有多長所以你不願意保證就對了我沒有什麼可以當四年這樣子的一個講話存在不是四年 你的任內你不願意保證嘛現在就是要保證還是不保證"},{"start":11493.975,"end":11498.56,"text":"報告委員 我剛剛已經一再的重複了國防部現在沒有任何女性服務一無一跟一無一延長為兩年的規劃對 沒有規劃嘛那你可不可以保證不會推動這個"},{"start":11506.485,"end":11526.535,"text":"我們現在就沒有這樣子的任何的對不會推動嘛你意思是不會推動嘛對不對不會推動你任內也不會出現這兩個我現在沒有做過要有做過要有這樣的推動的這樣的一個計畫規劃存在啊部長你這樣的答案是閃抖還是保證說不會推動我沒有任何的閃抖嘛委員你這樣子一直在repeat的一些這樣子謝謝張委員"},{"start":11528.416,"end":11553.375,"text":"那全民看看部長到底是說他在規避還是他不會推動還是會推動謝謝張委員的質詢那部長先請回好 我們請沈伯陽委員上台質詢好 謝謝主席 那有請顧部長 謝謝好 我們請顧部長"},{"start":11562.142,"end":11578.496,"text":"是 省委部長好辛苦了這兩天我們的質詢的時間可能有時候會拉得比較長民眾黨的委員問的問題問的時間通常都會比本委還要來得更久我不知道為什麼"},{"start":11579.4,"end":11607.955,"text":"那我現在想問一下因為剛剛地域委員其實也有提到就是這一個游訓轉戰這一個部分那因為這一次在三月我記得是在對三月的時候新聞有講到這個立即備戰操演那立即備戰操演當然看起來可能跟漢光演習有些應對那我這次看到夜報裡面有特別提到這個海底電纜的問題那因為前面呢我看到這個部長有提到說這個低中高強度的分級研判灰色地帶那我想問一下就是說因為"},{"start":11609.055,"end":11627.82,"text":"國人現在對於灰色地帶的這個定義當然並不是那麼的清楚然後呢現在大家又很關心海底電纜那我知道海底電纜哥大概也不會進入到第一這一個部分的一個分級那現在關於這些不管是分級啦灰色地帶的一個解釋啦國防部有沒有一個比較精簡的說法可以跟國人講一下"},{"start":11630.637,"end":11632.919,"text":"我們認為中共會以隱蔽性的方式來掩蓋它真正的企圖這是我們現在的判斷"},{"start":11645.149,"end":11659.708,"text":"所以我們會現在就各項的這個這個焊光的部分我們一開始就是灰色地帶的映出因為我們認為灰色地帶的映出來導致最後有可能轉成全面作戰的這個階段"},{"start":11661.09,"end":11682.328,"text":"那灰色地帶的這個硬處我們就必須要有充分的這個掌握判斷它的徵喉判斷它的威脅程度然後我們現在已經有一個低中高強度的一個關鍵預警徵喉的一個判斷表然後根據這些判斷我們來研判那所以我們今天"},{"start":11683.897,"end":11700.574,"text":"講坦白一點就是說他一直說他在訓練或者他一直說他在演習可是他也許隱藏著他真正的企圖烏俄戰爭就是一個明顯的例子所以我們這個的時候要提高我們的立即備戰的一個所以我們要操演"},{"start":11701.235,"end":11726.165,"text":"那我們也要它是它低中高強度我們可能就是說那到了某個強度我們就升級為二級加強戒備那我們到某個強度我們升為一級加強戒備那這個時候是在我們軍中本身依照我們的常備部隊我們就做立即這樣的應對以防以防它掩飾它的真正企圖以後讓我們觸然不及反應這是我們現在"},{"start":11728.392,"end":11738,"text":"國軍要面對這樣子的一種很隱蔽的這樣的一個可能的然後隱藏他的真正企圖說應該要要立即的快速的應對的一個"},{"start":11740.52,"end":11767.652,"text":"我們認為應該要做的事情謝謝部長因為我覺得這個是有必要跟國人解釋那剛剛下一頁這邊的部分本來就想說請國防部講一下這整個預期的效益那我相信剛剛的講法應該對國人來講算是很清楚那但是有一個小的點就是說我們在去年的時候其實也很強調這些官兵的權益等等之類的那我不知道這一次因為這一次的這個操演那不知道這一個有沒有相關的一些補駕什麼等等的措施呢補駕補駕"},{"start":11770.933,"end":11799.083,"text":"有 我們立即備戰操演就休假的這個部分呢我們當然會有一定的兵力要求那事後應該會進行相關的補加有關這個剛剛補充報告我是作息室次長那有關官兵的休假權益我們這個是演習的目的主要是能夠強化立即備戰部署那因此他是依據演習狀況來提升並沒有全面性的管制休假"},{"start":11799.703,"end":11810.709,"text":"那另外官兵如果有特殊的事故他可以依照我們請休假的規範像所屬單位長官提出請休假核准之後還是一樣依照他的室友來去實施請休假"},{"start":11812.258,"end":11831.252,"text":"因為從現在開始就是說一些演訓等等之類的那我知道最近也在做一些驗收那我那一天有去這一個相關的地方然後去看這個驗收的這個狀況那我在驗收狀況的時候呢我在聽這一個海軍在講的時候他們也有提到說因為現在要驗的數量也多然後常常會有加班的情形"},{"start":11832.212,"end":11854.354,"text":"所以就是說就這方面而言不只是這一次這個相關的這個為期五天的這個演訓還包含在驗收的團隊等等之類的因為我們現在對無人機的需求真的是增加那所以呢我們要驗收的人不一定有那麼多那個團隊其實會常常加班所以相關的這個權益啊有沒有過勞的情形啊什麼再拜託就多請注意啦拜託多請注意"},{"start":11855.074,"end":11881.026,"text":"是 我們有聽到一些反應那我想我們會注意好 謝謝那這個上次我是看到副部長在這個視察的時候有提到這幾個什麼名利 信用 資通 金融社福醫療 資源CI跟物資配送這五個面向有幾個地方是因為過去有質詢過我想追一下一個就是關於這個第一個這個名利 信用的部分無人機的這個飛操手目前的這個訓練我放一下這個"},{"start":11883.487,"end":11904.446,"text":"下一個這一個我問兩個事情第一個是非操守是這一個另外一個是空域跟時段的管理因為目前來講五輪機的這個測試變得多那問題是需要跟民航局協調那現在能夠使用的空域又少那現在針對這件事情目前應對因為這個之前有問過啦那目前這個應對的方案是什麼"},{"start":11907.415,"end":11932.352,"text":"確實我們現在在入境的五輪級飛行訓練中心的應該是在三軍聯測基地南測中心南測中心事實上空域還是不夠所以現在應該是在應該要在跟委員報告另外在營區上空400尺以下這個我們平常的例行的訓練那這個是不需要跟民航局申請"},{"start":11938.375,"end":11958.902,"text":"委員好,我是秦次事次長。我們前一個職務在空作部擔任副指揮官的時候,也針對無人機空域管理的這個部分跟民航局做過協調。那這個部分剛剛如同陸軍參謀長所講,400尺以下這個部分是在民航局的無人機"},{"start":11961.043,"end":11986.963,"text":"專章裡面它有預訂的那在特定的區域裡面這樣子的這個操作是許可那超越這個區域的話也有一定的這個管理程序那這個在這個108年的時候我們國防部也另頒了這個管理的作業程序那現在定期工作部呢會依照這個各使用操作單位的需求跟民防局定期來開會針對他們新增的需求來做研討以上"},{"start":11989.053,"end":12006.055,"text":"謝謝 因為剩一點時間我就再問一下這個上次已經上次我們有在辦公室討論過了這個我就不多問就是針對國防棄職的部分軍省今天非常多人問所以我覺得我不要去重複一些前面的問題不然就是一樣的問題一直重複我相信部長也很累"},{"start":12006.736,"end":12027.034,"text":"那大家都有提到一些共犯或什麼等等的問題我比較想問的反而是因為過去軍法官他在隸屬在國防部之下被遭受到質疑嘛那現在我記得部長有提到就是說不管是之後要人審會啊仿照法官法啊什麼等等之類的會確保他的獨立性那剛剛部長有提到多元這件事情"},{"start":12027.674,"end":12050.337,"text":"我想問一下就是說目前來講如果說從多元來禁用這件事情目前的規劃到底是什麼因為我覺得多元這件事情大概會跟獨立性會息息相關就是有可能是律師然後轉任那有可能我們現在有辦的法務官考試我們會從中選拔優秀人才那另外當然也不排除有居法官考試"},{"start":12051.378,"end":12073.338,"text":"但是考試完之後,我們還是要來選,來由人審會來把握,所以通過這樣的一個多元的一個甄選的一個程序,主要是讓這個,讓他們都,我們現在想的是說他們還要進入部隊去進行這個對食物的理解,"},{"start":12074.219,"end":12096.735,"text":"那所以讓他一方面就是說養成讓他對法律的專業之外然後對部隊管理的事務也有一定的認知那這樣子的話在這個軍事審判上面應該會更視切然後能夠比較的來合於我們對於這個軍人在職務上他應該有的作為的一個認知這樣子"},{"start":12097.715,"end":12126.132,"text":"好 謝謝部長那我覺得如果說真的是一個全新的軍事法庭這個小建議啦乾脆既然這麼新可以把它叫做一個新的名詞比如說國防法庭啊什麼等等之類的或許是一個考慮的方向那這個之後我們可能再因為我看這是一個長期的規劃啦組織法 法官法 檢察官相關的大概會是一個長期的規劃那希望之後呢看有多時間我們再來討論往這個的方向前進所以我們會盡快因為事實上是一個工程所以我們會盡快來努力"},{"start":12127.671,"end":12155.705,"text":"好 謝謝沈伯陽委員的質詢 部長先請回接下來有請王宏威委員上台質詢王宏威 王宏威 王宏威委員不在那接下來有請許巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":12169.189,"end":12172.13,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們有請顧部長是 學恩好首先呢 我們可以看一下這張手版在這裡呢這邊寫到了這個本院民進黨黨團針對這個立法院第十一屆第三會期第四次的報告事項裡面包含我拿反了 包含"},{"start":12196.599,"end":12225.763,"text":"第39案國民黨擬具軍人保險條例第10條跟第10條16條的修正案然後還有呢國軍廚藝官兵輔導條例還有軍人待遇條例第5條修正案跟軍人待遇條例第6條修正草案都要提出復議那我想要問一下這個顧部長的態度那對於立法院在對於這些我們的軍人那提出法案修正增加他們權利那請問顧部長呢您是同意還是反對"},{"start":12226.966,"end":12242.521,"text":"我們就這個軍人的待遇條例把它入法這件事情我們沒有贊成那軍人保險條例的部分好像修法的方向是刪除他的應該要的致富額是不是"},{"start":12243.201,"end":12262.76,"text":"一個是從我們就是由全額補助因為他們本來是35%是由自己自付然後我們希望可以全額補助這是一個另外一個就是過去我們就是綁四年之後第五年才能拿到一個保險的基礎也就是說如果你一二三四年你中間退掉的話那你繳的這本來的35%也會不見"},{"start":12265.583,"end":12274.788,"text":"那所以說對這個來講我們很多軍人他來當軍人之後他可能兩年發現他並不是和這個工作想要離職的時候那他就會卡關大概有這兩個部分"},{"start":12276.658,"end":12306.067,"text":"我們先請志願司說明一下好啊委員好我是志願司司長跟委員報告一下就是軍人保險條例裡面我們雖然規定五年以後才可以勤領但是五年之內所繳的如果他提前離職我們是有退費的規定但是這其實還是某程度去綁住了因為五年之後比方說第六年第七年第八年來講的話其實都是能夠拿到比較好的待遇這是蠻多軍人有跟我們反映的一個事情"},{"start":12307.188,"end":12330.806,"text":"我們是希望他們長留久用啦對於說他馬上就可以去理這件事情我們並不鼓勵但現在狀況有點不一樣因為你看一下我們去年在國軍裡面自強的狀況還有他們的壓力甚大那有一些人他可能做了這個軍人服務的時候他發現可能在第二年第三年的時候就不太適任那我們還要讓他們繼續鎖四鎖到第五年嗎這是我的一個問題喔"},{"start":12334.989,"end":12350.006,"text":"那接下來我要問的是呢其實從去年我們這個新任的立法委員上任之後軍中就已經在傳說要加薪的這件事情可是一年多以來國防部到目前來說始終沒有把這個到底要加多少那講出來"},{"start":12353.57,"end":12369.177,"text":"那或許呢部長已經有講了比如說某一些單位的加急可是到底要加多少錢到底要怎麼樣現在的基層軍人是人心惶惶因為很多人就想他如果沒有的話我要退伍了那所以說什麼時候你們說已經送到行政院去審查但什麼時候報告才會出來才能讓我們知道行政院的方案"},{"start":12375.278,"end":12394.923,"text":"就我理解我跟院長有討論他就說答案就說這個應該是已經他會盡快的把它核定下來盡快是多快呢因為大家一定要盡快盡快你們有時候很快那一個月那如果你說三個月或五個月或七個月都盡快我要告訴部長的是說你們去年就已經在講說要加薪的這件事情"},{"start":12399.884,"end":12411.789,"text":"那已經一年了你還要告訴我盡快的話那你應該要告訴我比較具體的時間點因為很多國軍弟兄都在等這件事應該是這幾個禮拜就會合理這幾個禮拜就會合定了這幾個禮拜合定之後那如果說這個金額上面跟這個我們國軍想像的不一樣的話那我想我們還是會繼續提出這個相關的修法"},{"start":12425.055,"end":12438.676,"text":"跟委員報告了我們現在著重的就是說基層官兵的部分因為大家都著重在所以我們這個戰鬥部隊的加級因為都是連級以下的那我請問一下戰鬥部隊的加級會翻倍嗎"},{"start":12439.939,"end":12459.047,"text":"戰鬥部隊家族我們有一定的調整那我想因為現在行政會不會翻倍因為這個我還蠻建議的委員要體諒一下我想在行政合定之前你不方便你不方便說我不適應去幫行政院去那沒有關係我們來第二個題目我知道我知道你的困難我也不打算要逼迫你"},{"start":12459.747,"end":12479.075,"text":"我們來問下一個問題就是呢當時我們在海昆號這個測試的時候博港測試HAT114年的3月19日也就是這個現在那呢在不到兩週的時間4月份就要到了去年11月月底的時候我們在委員會韓居參謀長告訴我們預計4月1號開始做海上測試那請問4月1號要做海上測試了嗎"},{"start":12486.737,"end":12512.624,"text":"報委員是這樣時間點是應該在去年的11月25在委員會期間那我們當初講法從4月1號開始會進入SAT這個階段對那有嗎那這個階段是到9月30號不是嘛4月1號開始做海上測試那是當時你們給我們的承諾我今天要問的是兩個禮拜以後就是4月1號了我們會不會如期的在4月1號開始做海上測試"},{"start":12513.544,"end":12531.603,"text":"跟委員報告我這邊國防部的立場還是以安全為重所以我每個禮拜聽取他們的報告現在相關HAT的缺改的部分他們還在進行當中我要確保這些缺改的部分我們希望是在4月那不一定要搶在4月1號"},{"start":12533.884,"end":12559.658,"text":"因為主要是當時我們問的時候你們就講就是4月1號我有一直在跟他們確認說有沒有承諾說4月1號但是我還是一句話要給我一個安全的確保當然我們都希望能夠安全那我想請問目前博港測試HAT進度到百分之幾了目前進度我今天兩個問號嘛進度到百分之幾我們缺失目前有幾項"},{"start":12561.656,"end":12582.723,"text":"我想這個相關的實際的這個內容的這個部分因為每次報告都是列入機敏的事項我不認為應該在這個地方可以公開的來說明好沒有問題但那我想要請問的是你們要把這個進度完成到百分之百以及缺失要玩到百分之百那你們預計需要多少的時間"},{"start":12584.127,"end":12595.363,"text":"我們還是規劃在四月份按照我現在的聽取他們的報告還是規劃在四月份會進入海上測試所以四月三十號以前海上測試會開始我可以這麼說嗎我現在所要求他們的應該是這樣子"},{"start":12600.691,"end":12619.514,"text":"好那我們到時候再來看那再來我們可以看就是說四月到九月海策那如果說假設你們後續有在變更的話那我想應該要跟人民再說明一下最後有一個題目是跟我們官兵休假權益有關的就是我們可以看一下這個請假的部分"},{"start":12620.956,"end":12629.587,"text":"工訓售價的部分呢你可以看到公務人員的有寫的很明確的法令就是公務人員如果呢他是去進修的話呢那他就是給予工價非常清楚好然後呢如果是這個勞動"},{"start":12637.637,"end":12655.837,"text":"如果是这个劳动相关的话呢那其实只要雇主跟这个员工他们有了解之后呢就是也可以给予相关的工资就是呢这是在劳动请假规则的第八条那但是呢我们会看到国均这个部分我们看国均呢"},{"start":12656.857,"end":12675.485,"text":"國軍的軍事官請假規則裡面的第三條第一款第一項裡面寫到軍官士官不論開缺與否因受訓疾病休養或住院期間於次年度的未落假何幾時依第一款所定日數比例則算扣除之不令補休"},{"start":12676.445,"end":12695.949,"text":"那舉例來說如果我現在呢有三個月時間在受訓的話我明年的未落假就需要扣掉四分之一所以部長您過去是職業律師我們可以看到勞工也好公務人員也好他們都有相關的這個規定那我想雖然軍人是一個特殊的行業可是我們也不宜讓大家太過於操勞因為為什麼像我們過去像上個會期我們增加了12倍的這個薪資輔導嘛"},{"start":12703.01,"end":12731.3,"text":"還有過去半一年一年來說自槍的人的數量非常多因為他們壓力很大所以我想要問的是說這個我們勞工身份跟公務人員的身份他都是去在做相關的受訓的時候甚至疾病兩者住院的時候那他是不是還要按照這個目前的請假規則裡面去折抵扣除他的未老假你覺得這樣是合理嗎"},{"start":12732.834,"end":12742.292,"text":"委員這個部分我現在下去以後了解一下,或者是要先說明一下"},{"start":12743.298,"end":12765.032,"text":"委員好 我跟委員說明一下就是說我們現在所有未到假的這個相關的規定都是看你服役多少年之後你有多少天的未到假那每年我們都會讓這些未到假的請休假讓他請完 因為這個要領不休假獎金或者是相關他的休假權益我們都會鼓勵所有官兵都能夠把他休完"},{"start":12765.692,"end":12793.542,"text":"不是嘛未落假等於說是我們一般人講的這個特休假嘛那只有國軍在扣假公務人員或勞工都沒有在扣假你懂我意思嗎所以你希望他請完但我們講的根本就不是你剛回答的這個問題啊我們講的是上面寫得很清楚嘛如果受訓的期間的話他要比例薪資扣除之然後不吝補休嘛這一條對於我們的官兵來說其實我覺得非常不公平啊"},{"start":12794.022,"end":12812.677,"text":"那公教人員他們都可以勞工都可以就我們軍人不行所以我希望在照顧軍人的同時是不是在這個項目上面我們可以去修正讓他們說在受訓之後你不要不是說要提供他更多的假期喔而是按比例你不要去扣除他的未落假"},{"start":12813.749,"end":12832.564,"text":"報告委員現在目前的規定是這個樣子那後續我們會按照委員的意見來參考看怎麼來做一個修訂好那我們基本上我們今天有提我們今天還沒有提臨時提案我們下一次會做臨時提案希望你們可以回去先想一想因為公務人員跟勞工都沒有這樣子的情況"},{"start":12833.305,"end":12849.013,"text":"那只有我們辛苦的軍人因為受訓要被扣未落假等於是扣他的特休我覺得這是非常不合理的那所以我們幫所有的基層軍人請命希望國防部能夠同意好嗎好我回去了解一下這些相關的規定好謝謝好謝謝許委員接下來請鄭正前委員上台質詢鄭正前鄭正前鄭正前委員不在接下來請李坤成委員上台質詢"},{"start":12875.5,"end":12877.141,"text":"謝謝主席我們請顧部長請部長 謝謝"},{"start":12884.549,"end":12902.3,"text":"是 李文豪來 部長好 辛苦了這個本席請教一下在這個今年的1月12號國安局有公布一個共諜案滲透手法分析然後其中有提到就是說這一個共諜案起訴的人數明顯的上升在2021年是16人到2024年已經到了64人這個成長了4倍"},{"start":12906.542,"end":12918.489,"text":"然後呢 這個國安局也提到說 這個滲透的目標呢 這個包含軍事單位 政府機關 民間協會但是呢 這個現役軍人呢 去年啦 這個現役軍人 這個遭起訴的呢 有28人然後那個退役的軍人呢 遭起訴有15人 總共占這個共諜案起訴的43%"},{"start":12927.774,"end":12949.867,"text":"所以這個現役退役的軍人是中共對台滲透的主要的鎖定對象我不曉得部長有沒有看過國安局的這份報告是 有所以他也透過了五大滲透管道還有四大守法那主要都是針對現役或是退役的軍人比如說勾結黑幫 發展武裝內應"},{"start":12954.57,"end":12969.114,"text":"開設地下錢莊引誘投共利誘宮廟吸引軍人刺密成立統戰的組織動員借血還有透過網路勾連部件組織等等那所以呢也因為這樣子所以賴總統這個也"},{"start":12971.495,"end":12995.65,"text":"因應的共諜或是因應中國境外的敵對勢力影響越來越嚴重所以有一個17項的國安因應策略其中跟國防部比較有相關的應該就是說要恢復軍事審判的制度未來的先移軍人如果是觸犯陸海空軍刑法的軍事犯罪案例交由軍事法院來審判"},{"start":12997.792,"end":13001.628,"text":"那這個其實大家都都有在問我今天早上有在聽"},{"start":13002.521,"end":13029.88,"text":"但是呢 這個總統提出來這個在現在如果是現役軍人他如果是犯了軍事的這一個案例之後呢是由這個軍事法庭來審判那有些人也有提出有不同的意見跟看法這個是說因為我們現在的這一個不管是泄密或是共諜案都是很多的這個常態都是軍民共犯"},{"start":13030.954,"end":13044.101,"text":"有軍人也有民間的 民間的有可能是退役沒多久的先吸收剛退役的軍人 再用他的人脈來滲透現役的軍人洩密叛國像雄三飛彈就是複製這種模式"},{"start":13051.064,"end":13075.774,"text":"那所以呢現在大家的問題在於說呢這個軍民共犯的情況呢那未來如果這個軍事審判就是說那現役軍人當然就是軍事審判那如果按照憲法規定不受軍事審判的非役軍人呢就由普通的法院來審判那這種情況之下呢就會有發生說這個如果是同一個案件身份不一樣有的是現役軍人有的是這個平民或是剛退役的"},{"start":13079.696,"end":13105.39,"text":"那或是說呢發生案件的時間呢有可能是在他當軍人的時候但是呢這個被追溯的時候有可能是在他已經不是軍人了會遇到這種情況所以外界也有聲音說是不是這個除了這個總統他所提到說這個軍事的這一個審判法庭之外在我們的普通法院也設立這個國安的軍事專業法庭那我請教一下部長的意見我想"},{"start":13110.595,"end":13125.05,"text":"應該兩個,第一個就是說我們重新打造的軍事審判,重點是在於為這個因為現在還是二元化,所以平戰轉換,所以在平時要建構一個新的軍事審判體系,暫時才能夠有一定的量能"},{"start":13125.65,"end":13153.4,"text":"那至於在軍事審判之外要不要搭配這個軍法官參審有一個這個國安法庭的一個設計我覺得這個要跟司法院做進行的要一個溝通也就是說如果是要裁掉現在按照國安國家安全法第十九條規定第十九條的規定就是說這個各級的這個法院法官辦理案件的時候呢就要設這個就可以設國安軍事專研法庭啦"},{"start":13154.755,"end":13174.507,"text":"他現在就我的了解他是專股然後兼辦他並沒有設置一個專者的一個專業法庭讓部長看一下這是這個司法院所提供的資料他說現在這個國安軍是專業法庭除了有你剛才這個部長講的這個專股之外"},{"start":13175.393,"end":13197.704,"text":"也有專業的法庭這當然是司法院提供的資料 部長知不知道這份資料對 我知道就是說因為它有這樣子的要求但是現在實際的實現的狀況當然就是我早上已經有說過了因為我們早年在從事這些推動這些專業法庭的時候都會發現事實上有各種各樣的專業法庭有什麼"},{"start":13200.666,"end":13218.691,"text":"金融專業法庭各種專業法庭事實上這樣的一個專業法庭它會隨著人員的調動事實上這個專業法庭的專業性還是有一些質疑不過剛剛委員提到的就是說"},{"start":13220.171,"end":13241.263,"text":"除了用軍事審判之外那另外還有一種設計是說他如果違反國安法的相關案件那涉及到退役跟現役軍人或者是其他的民人的時候那是不是在這個國安法庭裡面由交由這個法院來審判這一件事情而且他有可能是交由高等的法院來審判"},{"start":13242.684,"end":13264.935,"text":"這一件事情我現在沒有辦法完全的排除但是我們軍事審判的這個制度還是要重新打造那有沒有另外有一個這樣的一個設計的可能性我們要跟史蘭做一個溝通就是說當然這個軍事的審判法庭那現在要重新打造那另外就是說我剛才所提到就是說在浦東法院"},{"start":13265.835,"end":13282.673,"text":"也是一個這個專業的國安的法庭是不是能夠避免我剛所提到的就是說因為現在這個不管是共諜案、泄密案等等之類的它違反的有可能是違反國安法違反國安無法違反這個反滲透法那就是由這個國安專業法庭它現在"},{"start":13283.954,"end":13299.247,"text":"架構上是會有我稍微跟委員解釋一下就是說他涉犯國安法那如果他也同時因為他通常他一旦涉及國安法他同時應該也會涉及陸海公園起碼第二篇的洩密這個等等的部分那"},{"start":13299.767,"end":13314.775,"text":"理論上來講犯罪一部是屬於亂供應刑法他就要做軍事審判那但是如果這個部分跟涉法人員協商如果他有一個共犯的概念就是說這個共犯包括了現役軍人包括退役軍人等等這些共犯的部分要不要交給一個"},{"start":13315.896,"end":13340.394,"text":"他設了一個軍事專業法庭而這個軍事專業法庭確實是也讓我們的人可以進入一起的話這個部分的設計可能我已經看到有相關的學者提出這個概念就是參審制的概念那我們必須要跟他一起來討論也就是說這樣子的一個參審是比較接近德國制的一種參審而不是一種國民參審"},{"start":13341.795,"end":13357.206,"text":"那如果說不是國民參審的話那而是一種專業參審的話那這一個軍法官要不要具有軍法官的資格這個部分都還要跟史懷恩做一個協商這個其實是蠻技術有蠻專業性的這個部分還要跟史懷恩做一個協商"},{"start":13358.727,"end":13382.555,"text":"這個提供這個部長做參考主席我再問最後一個問題一分鐘就好了這個按照國防部所提供這個四年期國防總檢討有提到就是說國防預算要爭取到這個GDP的3%以上的目標那請問一下現在是多少我們現在國防預算佔GDP多少大概2.45%左右2.45%對那如果要達3%大概要增加多少"},{"start":13383.342,"end":13392.713,"text":"一千多億那這個總統他有提到就是說是不是用這個編列特別預算的方式然後讓國防預算能夠達到3%"},{"start":13397.546,"end":13414.693,"text":"因為我們避免都編在年度預算的話會排擠其他各部會的預算的情況之下編列特別預算是一個方式是一個比較可行的方式但是特別預算的一個編列一定要有一個條例要經過大院同意"},{"start":13415.793,"end":13436.081,"text":"所以我們現在的問題是在於是說我們要屬於立即應該可以快速獲得的這個部分我們才能夠編列入特別預算所以是哪些項目是我們現在可以立即快速獲得的這個部分然後合乎我們的防衛作戰的實際需要這個部分我們正在審慎的這個研議當中"},{"start":13440.523,"end":13460.208,"text":"那部長有來爭取說那這是因為這個稅收高於預期我增加這五千多億扣掉地方有三千多億有沒有來爭取在其中的一千億來作為這個特別預算我想這個不是國防部應該要主責的事項這是主計長或者是行政院的權責你說國防部有沒有爭取我當然最後是由行政院來決定有沒有來爭取"},{"start":13461.448,"end":13476.779,"text":"我們爭取的是說按照總統的政策指示到達3%這個目標如何達成那裁員的來源這個要有行政院他來主責好 先問到這邊好了謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝李委員接下來請邱志偉委員上台質詢"},{"start":13503.033,"end":13514.781,"text":"謝謝主席 呃 是不是有請 呃 這個 國防部 顧部長呃 全民防衛動員署 李署長 軍醫局 馮副局長何警署長跟局長 謝謝是 邱委員吼欸 部長 先請教那個岡山吶 岡山醫院 國際岡山醫院的長照大樓這你可能比較不瞭解 我先請教馮副局長這個 岡山醫院長照大樓預算有沒有問題"},{"start":13533.409,"end":13557.476,"text":"跟委員報告 因為一些委員的關心因為這個部分的話分為 經費分為兩個部分有沒有問題啦沒有問題恭喜會不會延宕不會延宕 謝謝委員的支持與協助我的問題完了 請回座這個全面防衛動員署那關於這個 我在總諮詢有提到"},{"start":13558.998,"end":13586.287,"text":"這個所謂慈福臨寢跟大西臨寢臨寢的定義是什麼帝王之墓怎麼把一個獨裁者變成一個帝王帝王之墓它的管理規則是這個開放臨寢業齡管理須知這部分不是法律未解它是一個行政命令是一個須知而已行政部門要改就馬上可以改"},{"start":13587.165,"end":13605.408,"text":"你看現在這個獨裁者的這個領請帝王之墓還有我們國軍每天在那邊看守還有禮賓交接儀式這個你們可以做的我總之可能沒有那麼多時間這個是不是部長你來表示一下態度"},{"start":13608.361,"end":13630.179,"text":"我想這個應該要依照行政院的政策來行政院什麼政策 行政院有政策嗎行政院應該有交代文化部有相關的這些只是你們發布的行政命令是全董署發布行政命令你們願不願意去調整 去思考怎麼去調整"},{"start":13631.821,"end":13648.337,"text":"我想我們這個部分是包括民生是不是改過包括是部署要 非得要部署禮賓這你們可有從須知己裡面去改啊你們有沒有要改而已這不涉及法律的修正"},{"start":13649.741,"end":13669.133,"text":"我們暫時目前就這個部分是基於這一個算是它還是算是一個營區的安全維護我們目前沒有這個相關的規劃所謂帝王之墓 督差者的墓有沒有安全疑慮哪來的安全疑慮有人會盜墓嗎我不覺得有任何這個有安全上的疑慮"},{"start":13679.168,"end":13687.111,"text":"這個你們應該去思考這個問題特別名稱領請帝王之木你把獨裁者視為一個帝王這個我不曉得為什麼沒有辦法回答這個部長因為我時間一分一秒就過去了我現在只能說我們暫時目前沒有這樣的一個規劃為什麼為什麼暫時沒有"},{"start":13708.291,"end":13728.459,"text":"那暫時的狀態 暫時定義是多久一個月 兩個月 三個月 還是一年委員的意見我們來參考 我們來相關研議那我們也跟文化部來進行是不是一個月之內可以把你們的想法用一個書面報告好不好 一個月之內這不是新問題 這是老問題啦 部長"},{"start":13734.205,"end":13755.366,"text":"你是一個人權鬥士啊你曾經是一個轉型正義的律師啊這個應該你特別有感才對啊我們再來跟文化部來進行協調我會一直質詢我會一直質詢但不能像現在都沒有話說來 權重署來 署長"},{"start":13759.503,"end":13765.025,"text":"國軍的送訓制度我們這個要花很多的錢把國軍送訓每年一億四年一位出國去送訓的軍官大概要花一千萬左右"},{"start":13787.796,"end":13813.502,"text":"但是他從他的服役年次來看他比這個國軍平均服役年金少了將近四年那他的職業會發生這個一些問題所以你的送訓制度沒有辦法發揮他原本的功能你送訓就是回來有更多的好的人才新的思維來提振國軍的整體綜合能力嘛"},{"start":13814.485,"end":13839.036,"text":"那這個部分 這個部長您的看法是我們受這個如果是出國念這個外比如說西點 您跟這裡提到西點軍校或其他的這個軍校的這個部分我們現在應該還是要盡量讓他的這個金管能夠完成所以我們就把它會按照他的這個專長我們會"},{"start":13842.177,"end":13850.388,"text":"讓他從事這個部隊的食物的訓練現行的送訓制度有沒有需要做改革或者調整呢送訓的制度"},{"start":13852.422,"end":13873.834,"text":"我覺得應該是他們回來之後我們讓他進行相關的一個歷練不要妨礙他的職業的發展很多從事外事或者是翻譯工作現在要改變這些做法因為他一直在從事這些翻譯外事的工作他沒有一個部隊的一個歷練他的金管就沒辦法完整"},{"start":13876.738,"end":13892.739,"text":"接下來的問題是跟海軍參謀長有來威海計畫的相關預算海軍參謀長非常認真努力把相關預算最快的速度籌編這部分當然也要經過行政院"},{"start":13893.823,"end":13912.342,"text":"那我希望說能夠最快的速度能夠編入這個明年度的預算所以是不是市政府也很關心這我的選區這個國家重大的這個國防機制我們都全力支持但是也不能說影響到這個漁民的生計所以這個部分我想請教一下參謀長這個明年納入預算有沒有問題"},{"start":13919.81,"end":13938.042,"text":"這個部分因為他們一直有來跟我報告我們現在應該是在這個會在應該是八月底前核定那就納入明年的預算編列所以這點不會跳票了所以會今年的年底就納入預算"},{"start":13940.613,"end":13942.394,"text":"我們現在的規劃是如此軍事審判的暫時定義要怎麼去做調整軍事審判的暫時定義現在現行第七條本法稱暫時者"},{"start":13965.929,"end":13980.894,"text":"為抵禦青年兒幼總統一憲法宣告作戰之期間那這個牽涉到共諜案的複雜樣態包括這個灰色地帶目前要怎麼樣針對這第七條暫時定義做調整部裡面有沒有看法"},{"start":13981.956,"end":14008.914,"text":"我個人的看法是如此就是說我們現在的防衛作戰已經不需要沒有跟戒嚴放在一起這個要特別說明那我們現在所有相關的法制從憲法 針對台灣 到國防法 到權動法都是以總統發布緊急命令也就是說 碰到緊急狀況發布緊急命令來作為我們這個動員的需要所以我們應該是以緊急命令發布作為一個認定這樣子"},{"start":14010.558,"end":14030.557,"text":"所以他的定義就是要做調整對那第七條就要修法我想應該要規劃要來做一個調整那修法的版本什麼時候會提出來我想這一次連同這一個部分我們會一併來做一個調整這樣好 謝謝部長 謝謝各位同仁大家辛苦了好 謝謝昭偉"},{"start":14032.458,"end":14041.459,"text":"好 謝謝邱委員 謝謝部長那接下來我們有請蔡易瑜委員上台質詢喔 看錯了 看錯了 不好意思蘇清泉委員上台質詢"},{"start":14042.868,"end":14063.153,"text":"蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在接下來有請高津素美委員上台質詢高津素美高津素美高津素美委員不在接下來請徐欣盈委員上台質詢徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在接下來有請蔡易委員上台質詢"},{"start":14070.984,"end":14084.189,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是有請部長以及我們軍備局局長以及我們國家中山科學研究院的副院長有請局長副院長好"},{"start":14087.979,"end":14114.662,"text":"部長我們知道從烏俄戰爭的借鑒我們知道無人機大概就是未來如果真的有發生戰事的時候無人機幾乎是整個在戰線中會變得越來越重要所以我們在思考無人機的產業的時候就是說我們國軍怎麼佈建無人機的時候我覺得還有一塊是很重要的就是怎麼反制無人機"},{"start":14116.316,"end":14142.655,"text":"對無人機的一個反制所以這個反制可能就包括要徵收你要找無人機來第二個就是說徵收到了你要怎麼把無人機就是要怎麼去防止它再繼續接近有軟煞跟硬煞對 軟煞跟硬煞對 所以要防止無人機但是無人機我們知道事實上還是有很多科技他們也都是在進步所以就是說無人機為了防止說我們之前說要用電波"},{"start":14145.416,"end":14162.089,"text":"用更強的這個頻率把無人機讓它失去控制讓它失去了這個遠端的控制但是他們也發展出我用光纖的我現在無人機我只能駕一條船"},{"start":14164.007,"end":14180.114,"text":"就是說他也有用這種,也有說用AI他直接去了,他就變任務型的無人機,他自己辨別所以我們在做反制無人機的時候,是不是也要有相對應針對這一些不同的,然後我們要有不同的一些反制的作為"},{"start":14181.636,"end":14199.298,"text":"跟委員報告,我大概大致上說明一下,詳細部分他們可以再做細部的說明大概這樣就是說,無人機的反制,剛剛已經講了,混成軟煞跟硬煞那無人機呢,它又有各型的無人機,有的無人機是比較昂貴的無人機,比如說"},{"start":14200.279,"end":14226.363,"text":"像美國這種MQ-9B這種一架它就要一億多美金這樣的穩無人機也有一種是非常小型的無人機那你這種不同的無人機的應對它的反制你要有不同的思維我比如舉個例子伊朗它發射那個Shahid這樣子一個低成本的無人機那以色列為了要反制它那發揮了這個它的鐵穹系統可是它的"},{"start":14226.863,"end":14251.334,"text":"它的成本可能高過於它這個狹黑的整個發射過來的十倍那你這樣子 你說你用一個高的一個飛濫的防禦系統去應對它的低價的這個無人機那這個就是我們要思考在我們這個面對國土防衛作戰的時候我們如何來去思考"},{"start":14252.506,"end":14272.707,"text":"共軍他可能運用無人機的作戰模式那我們要如何用一個有效的方式來進行這個無人機的反制我們不可能拿一個造價可能昂貴的比如說隨便講說雄三雄二去應對他的那個一二三型的無人機那這樣的話那我們一下飛彈就被他消耗光了"},{"start":14273.147,"end":14288.172,"text":"所以這個的時候會有很多這種對於無人機的反制它不斷地 現在無人機也不斷地在進步那反制無人機的技術也不斷地在進步這個包括了包括甚至已經講到雷射的可能性"},{"start":14289.572,"end":14312.381,"text":"還有用低成本的這種類似用無人機反制無人機的這種可能性那也有可能當然運用一些軟砂的手段來進行干擾這些我想都是在我們應該要研討的範圍之內那這一塊的部分呢這個是大家正在大家都在加強啦所以我延續你剛才講的事實上"},{"start":14315.422,"end":14332.057,"text":"我要強調的就是這個重點就是說我們在反制無人機我們第一個就是我們的反制成本要下降反制成本要下降的話可能就是說如果剛剛講到的用小型無人機來做反制那我們就要有更多的小型無人機"},{"start":14333.499,"end":14345.306,"text":"我們必須要有一個一定的數量就是說對方如果用這個群峰的無人機來的時候我們是不是有更多小型無人機低成本的然後可以去做數量上然後去阻擋我們的無人機自己去阻擋"},{"start":14349.288,"end":14374.983,"text":"所以我的意思是說那這些都是需要產業的投入所以我們是不是在軍備局我們應該要跟很多開始一些無人機的一個廠商然後請他們去投入類似這樣反制無人機然後把數量衝出來然後我們要有一定的數量勒事實上這些廠商就是需要我們國防部要去做他們背後的一個支撐那是不是這部分要請部長"},{"start":14377.353,"end":14404.643,"text":"對跟委員報告我想中科院也好或者軍備局也好那我們現在最主要跟坦白講也跟美方的技術合作也好我們目標都是在於做不管是無人機或者反制無人機這個部分我們都要想辦法如果您講的用無人機反制無人機那或者無人機本身它也有可能各種各款的無人機有的是低成本的有的比較高成本"},{"start":14405.083,"end":14433.955,"text":"有的是距離比較短的有的是打反裝甲的有的是打箭的那這些相關的這些部分我們都要主要主要主要要建立一個國防自主的產能因為要建構一個國防自主產能在一旦有戰時的時候我們才有辦法因為無人機的消耗量是相當大在烏克戰爭就可以看得出來所以烏克蘭已經建立了一個自存量能它每個月要生產的架數是幾萬架以上"},{"start":14434.615,"end":14461.105,"text":"所以我們也要建立這樣的產能這是我們最重要的一個核心那這個部分要跟這個民間的力量做結合所以這個部分是軍民要做整合那中科院也現在要釋出這些相關他已經發展出來的一些這些關鍵性的技術那他把它釋出讓民間可以來生產"},{"start":14463.266,"end":14486.976,"text":"這樣子的一個自主能量產生透過我們軍方本來研發的能量再加上民間他們創新的能量一起做結合這樣子的無人機的自主產能才能夠建構出來部長所以現在事實上我要強調就是產量的問題就是說如果我們認為說一個技術是可以成熟可以量產事實上我們現在整個民間他們投入無人機的研發他們就是卡在"},{"start":14487.455,"end":14492.999,"text":"這個我也跟委員特別報告一下這個就是涉及到說一方面是我們軍方的採購的量能有一定的極限那我們可能也要因為無人機發展也是迭代發展所以我們要細水長流剛剛中委員也要細水長流"},{"start":14508.189,"end":14527.686,"text":"那另外當然就是說其他各部會的無人機的運用也要能夠發展出來那我們現在已經請中宣做一個軍民共用的一個共版的一個規格那只要這些民用的無人機一旦到了戰時我們再改裝加上一些軟體然後加上一些火攻的"},{"start":14528.446,"end":14557.5,"text":"這部分我們就可以成為一個軍用的這是第二個 第三個就是我們要打入國際的供應鏈我想這個部分美方也特別的重視也就是說美方要建構是一個去紅化的供應鏈那去紅化之後就要結合各個國家的一個優勢然後把將這個優勢發揮那我們如果能夠打入這個國際供應鏈規模才能夠起的來我們不一定要造整機可是我們如果有一些關鍵的技術我們把這些關鍵的技術跟另外的國家"},{"start":14557.74,"end":14586.691,"text":"做結合那這樣的話我們這些關鍵品組件就有一定的在國際供應量就有一定的一個規模量那這個公司就願意去投入然後又願意更研發然後再更精進所以這些都已經是在進行事當中部長這個環環相扣啦對對對事實上現在很多國家都已經過來都來進行這些無人機跟反制無人機的這些大家共同來合作好"},{"start":14587.252,"end":14590.541,"text":"那就 那國防部這邊就再繼續努力好 謝謝"},{"start":14592.626,"end":14619.696,"text":"謝謝蔡委員 謝謝部長那已登記的質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束那本日會議有林益君委員蘇清泉委員跟王洪威委員提出書面質詢請列入紀錄並刊登公報並請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆那本日委員口頭質詢未及答覆部分或要求補充資料者也請相關單位再以書面提供本日會議到此結束 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杨栋梁"},{"start":572.612,"end":598.388,"text":"這裏有個小小的大廈。這裏有個小小的大廈。"},{"start":617.851,"end":625.419,"text":"這裏有個大廈,這裏有個餐廳"},{"start":632.216,"end":632.976,"text":"好好好好好"},{"start":664.933,"end":680.773,"text":"這裏是一間餐廳"},{"start":698.47,"end":699.991,"text":"嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":719.346,"end":723.347,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見"},{"start":738.913,"end":749.041,"text":"這間餐廳的主要是為了提供餐廳的餐廳服務。"},{"start":925.89,"end":930.714,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":968.814,"end":969.65,"text":"MING PAO CANADA MING PAO TORONTO"},{"start":1171.172,"end":1171.272,"text":"感谢观看"},{"start":1340.111,"end":1342.275,"text":"谢谢观看"},{"start":1668.275,"end":1668.437,"text":"谢谢观看,下次见!"},{"start":1789.694,"end":1816.543,"text":"請祖密報告出席人數報告全體會出席委員14人已足法定人數現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上市會議議事錄100年第11屆第三會期經濟委員會第二次全體委員會議議事錄時間114年3月13日星期四9時至12時13分地點紅樓101會議室出席委員邱盈盈等14人列席委員林德福等19人列席人員"},{"start":1817.483,"end":1843.629,"text":"公民教育委員會代理主任委員陳志明暨相關人員主席蔡昭紀委員異議報告事項一 宣讀上次會議事錄決定 確定二 邀請公民教育委員會代理主任委員列席報告業務概況並備質詢公民教育委員會代理主任委員陳志明報告後委員邱毅穎等16人提出質詢均由公民教育委員會代理主任委員陳志明暨相關人員即席答覆決定一"},{"start":1844.429,"end":1857.251,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場者外 區域經營發言完畢 詢答結束二 位級答覆部分 請相關單位一週內書面答覆並複製本會上會宣讀完畢繼續進行報告事項請宣讀邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況並備質詢宣讀完畢現在請國家委員會劉靜清主委進行業務報告"},{"start":1883.127,"end":1896.189,"text":"主席各位委員早安今天非常榮幸有機會來委員會進行我們公安會的業務報告我會盡快的簡短的這個報告我們主要的"},{"start":1897.855,"end":1911.526,"text":"業務那2024年我們的這個GDP的成長率是達到4.59是整個亞洲應該是最好的在四小龍裡面是居首位那我們預估今年"},{"start":1913.027,"end":1928.194,"text":"基礎應該會在3.4%或以上那我們也希望今年能夠有機會挑戰我們的這個人均所得能夠超過三萬五千這是我們今年發展的目標"},{"start":1929.014,"end":1946.711,"text":"那在我們整個在往下盪裡面從出口我們預估可以增加7%以上主要原因是信心科技的熱絡尤其在AI這個領域帶動了很大的成長那民間的投資的部分我們去年達到了5.3兆那今年我們預估會成長6.18%大概會到5.7兆"},{"start":1949.614,"end":1964.512,"text":"那5.17兆這個數字呢是很有機會應該會如果做到的話會是創歷史新高所以國內的機會是非常好的那尤其台積電在日前也特別宣布在國內的11個廠的設定他進度不會改變"},{"start":1965.272,"end":1988.171,"text":"這也是帶動整個民間投資活絡的很大的原因那當然也國際大廠來台設立這個研發跟資料中心也是帶動的因素那間接帶動的民間消費會成長2.2所以造成我們的GDP還是會有比較穩健的成長跟這個突破那去年來講的話我們大概是4.59優於新加坡4.4韓國的2跟香港的2.5"},{"start":1989.412,"end":2014.375,"text":"那在我們新的施政上面我們還是持續在創新均衡人才跟法規鬆綁四個角度那我們在現代無產業的推動裡面我們手中還是半導體的供應鏈韌性這裡面韌性裡面我們衡量台灣已經有三個世界第一了不論在我們這個設計我們是世界第二在製造部分我們是世界第一封裝我們是世界第一"},{"start":2014.835,"end":2036.925,"text":"那我們希望強化我們在化學材料跟設備部分這兩部分能夠輔導起來那成為台灣是全供應鏈韌性就會變得比較完整那也因此我們在2024年也合訂了國會會X基地在新竹那也同時這是一個半導體共創基地也合訂了這個經濟部先進半導體研發基地那我們也補助了二三個團隊"},{"start":2038.226,"end":2053.521,"text":"AI的部分我們除了成立100億的AI基金之外我們要推動中部成為智慧精密的新核心那我們預計要輔導我們已經輔導了大概AI相關2133家會持續再去擴大那軍工的部分我們"},{"start":2054.762,"end":2077.717,"text":"成立了這個無人機的聯盟之外那我們現在是由經濟部主導在民間的部分我們在民雄也成立了無人機的專業區這是居民共用的專業區分兩個區域那這個是讓我們在居民之間都可以去推動我們也即將會考慮設立一個軍工相關的AI房鼓勵更多的年輕人投入這個領域或是專家"},{"start":2080.098,"end":2089.686,"text":"另外在安控的部分我們也持續在推動讓我們國家的安全會做得更好再來是次世代通訊我們在低軌道衛星的發展是持續進行我們也積極推動參與6G的實驗在2027年我們還是會希望目標發射我們第一顆衛星"},{"start":2099.193,"end":2122.595,"text":"那另外在創新創業與零生態系我們這個1500億的投資是沒有改變的那我們還是三大目標第一個生態系的建立第二個擴大投資標的數量再來提高創業成功的機率那我們幾個比較大的事情呢就是第一個我們六大主題是投資的基金成立然後我們正在規劃成立一個COPY VC的聯盟"},{"start":2123.175,"end":2138.294,"text":"也建立了校園生態系那另外在我們東京在去年成立的新的基地今年1月成立的矽谷基地我們希望嫁接台灣的新創企業跟海外進行對接讓我們的國際化做得更好"},{"start":2139.448,"end":2158.614,"text":"那也創造更多的國際化的機會那我們現在其實也積極的推動了很多的心臟師業到美國去受訓尤其在跟伯克萊的這個心臟基地做了很大的往來那也因此伯克萊介紹我們進到了JP Morgan的生態圈裡面也創造了這個"},{"start":2160.607,"end":2178.525,"text":"我們在Biotech這個領域裡面有很大的發展那另外我們希望有更大的投資量能進到台灣的產業讓我們的未來的發展更好也支持我們GDP的成長所以我們也推動了這個兆元投資台灣的發展計畫我們希望有資金大投資、產業大投資等等"},{"start":2179.165,"end":2195.058,"text":"那在這個部分我們已經建立了行政院的一個出餐的小組那將來所有的案員都會進到行政院出餐那目前我們盤點下來有50個案員正在檢討那在法規部分我們也配合這個部分我們也鬆綁了5件那另外幾個在永續債的發展的話我們也在支援這個地方"},{"start":2202.383,"end":2228.888,"text":"這個桃園的社宅或者是捷運 我們進行這個永續在的發行 永續在發行會讓資金成本低於連帶 另外我們也支持經濟部ASCO相關的這個這個部分讓這個投資保險業者可以進到ASCO的領域共同一起協助台灣做好節能減碳的部分那另外在我們產業創新的這個這個資金帶動的活水裡面我們也"},{"start":2229.688,"end":2258.207,"text":"也有大概我們AI的產業我們有110家的投資超過20億那醫療創新我們投資6家大概1.5億那我們也成立了一個企業再造基金我們希望透過企業再造基金去協助台灣的產業翻轉尤其是上市櫃公司ROE比較偏低的我們希望把它調整過來那另外在國發基金的投資機制裡面我們做了五大改革投錢的改革我們設立了公司治理的門檻"},{"start":2259.088,"end":2272.776,"text":"我們強化了市場口碑的調查以及市場趨勢的發展在審議中的部分呢我們這個把審議門檻從過去的過半我們到3%甚至到更高那另外2%3%兩個門檻就把過去過半門檻拉高再來是合約簽訂部分呢我們"},{"start":2278.739,"end":2303.592,"text":"會有更多對國發基金的權益保障那對頭後管理我們設立預警制度我們即將成立頭後小組我們現在正在跟人事總署即將去送件爭取這個成立這樣的一個小組那退場的部分我們也開始定期在檢討這個退場機制那另外在區域均衡上面我們還是以國家這個"},{"start":2304.962,"end":2325.131,"text":"總統的區域台灣 軍人台灣的發展政見裡面我們制定了三個區域 區域制衡的方式其實第一個就是我們六大區域的生活圈跟產業規劃再來是地方創生 我們也有地方創生廊帶跟傳統地方創生兩種不同的形態資源同時我們搭配區域治理 讓地方有機會參與"},{"start":2326.371,"end":2346.281,"text":"那也因為這樣的關係我們也開始在積極的去推動以及這個協助這個這個管控152項跟均衡台灣有關的建設那這個裡面呢我們首先是把台灣的區隔成六塊那我們首先推出來的是桃竹貓大溪谷我們希望在桃竹貓地區"},{"start":2347.021,"end":2372.207,"text":"打造更完整的科技生態圈我們第二個行政院核定的是大南方新矽谷這大南方新矽谷部分也是希望帶動南部地區的科技發展我們統稱南北雙矽谷南北雙矽谷將會成為台灣南北均衡很重要的一塊也是帶動南北產業發展很重要的一塊"},{"start":2373.087,"end":2393.853,"text":"那我們現在在積極的規劃的是中部的智慧精密系核心我們希望利用既有的精密智慧科技然後呢去推動我們幾個產業第一個智慧化的部分第二個是光子相關的產業再來是航太跟這個零費還有智慧農業等等那另外在"},{"start":2396.014,"end":2419.469,"text":"這個北部地區首都圈的部分我們拉了我們有三個支柱第一個是到桃園的支柱這個支柱是搭配到桃園大溪谷第二個首都圈的第二個支柱是到基隆我們在黃金河谷廊帶那第三個支柱到宜蘭我們希望帶動的是綠色的智慧走廊所以我們將會在北北基的部分在基隆河谷的部分"},{"start":2420.81,"end":2431.156,"text":"南河谷的部分我們是搭配到內湖科學園區到南港科學園區到汐止科學園區再往上移到"},{"start":2432.594,"end":2460.356,"text":"在往北翼到寶長坑一帶那另外我們在基隆港會推動再造會以海洋科技為主跟觀光為主那我們在生技的部分從這個南港的生技園區到中央研究院再拉到這個宜蘭的科學園區去我們希望這樣的方式來帶動那我們在宜蘭花東跟屏南的部分我們會以東部漫火城鄉為準那我們希望帶動這個智慧農業跟這個"},{"start":2463.799,"end":2485.132,"text":"這個觀光產業跟大健康甚至我們也在推動數位牧民那希望透過數位牧民的發展能夠帶動在地的數位產業那這個是一個新的綠色產業新的無煙囪產業那金馬澎湖我們是以低碳熱火離島作為我們的發展主軸那整個台灣將會以這六大主軸做我們區域的發展"},{"start":2486.744,"end":2509.833,"text":"為了搭配到這六大區域發展,我們也同時規劃了九大生態系統來支撐這整個的發展第一個是水,供水的部分第二個是供電的部分,必須搭配產業的均衡再來是居住與社宅,當產業發展之後需要居住與社宅再來是交通與旅宿,我們希望讓交通更完善"},{"start":2510.413,"end":2525.127,"text":"然後以桃竹苗大溪谷來講我們五陽高架就會延伸到竹南去那我們的這個會多一條橫向的路新梅龍的快速道路我們也會拉一條新的快速道路從半橋一直拉到龍潭去"},{"start":2525.928,"end":2543.773,"text":"那這些交通的發展都會帶動那也包括旅宿產業配合商務考察使用那再來是有了居住有了新的更多的人生活圈產生之後呢生活購物的系統也要同時建立起來那同時要搭配醫療系統教育系統再搭配文化跟淨零與廢棄物的處理"},{"start":2546.494,"end":2572.07,"text":"那這會同時進行所以桃竹苗的部分我們走了第一階段現在進到第二階段就是我們已經跟各縣市的首長都進行的會議我們建立了一個溝通的管道然後我們定期的去看協助這個地方來規劃跟解決所需要的問題那南部的新矽谷也正在進行同樣的事情那我們接下來等到"},{"start":2574.032,"end":2594.855,"text":"這個核定這個這個中部新核心跟北區的北部的這個首都圈的這個黃線長帶之後我們也會進行更細一步的規劃那為了搭配這整個六大區域發展的我們把台灣52項建設就整理出來我們在中張頭我們在高鐵我們從彰化會延伸到集集"},{"start":2595.816,"end":2620.257,"text":"跟南投串在一起我們在中捷有綠線的延伸在雲林我們有高齡的醫學中心在台中有漫畫館我們到了嘉南的部分我們在嘉義我們有嘉義市高鐵鐵路高架化的延伸有國道1號的延伸國道7號等等也有高屏二快"},{"start":2621.358,"end":2637.853,"text":"再來是高鐵延伸屏東的部分那我們沙崙現在也正在做比較大的規劃再來是民雄的無人區我們整個將來在嘉義的部分我們是一中心兩園區無人區的中心加上兩個園區"},{"start":2639.654,"end":2656.171,"text":"那在整個桃竹苗也是一個比較完整的規劃所以我們希望帶動整個台灣用152項建設盡快的讓各項建設搭配起來再加上經濟的發展整合在一起那這個第二個部分呢我們另外開始在進行第二種"},{"start":2656.952,"end":2683.845,"text":"另外一種議題就是叫做區域治理我們希望透過中央與地方的對接能夠讓區域的治理更完整那我們會建立示範的創新點針對太陽能光電、餘電共生、微水力發電跟低熱進行這個沙盒實驗希望打造一個這個地方跟民間跟政府之間的三方的溝通那我們在溝通平台上面我們也在建立桃園大溪谷的開發的溝通平台"},{"start":2685.507,"end":2699.885,"text":"我們在1月20號就以地方首長這個開會達成協議2月7號我們建立了這個平台跟聯絡窗口現在雙方都是由副首長進行直接對話溝通我們希望讓未來的發展會更完整"},{"start":2700.726,"end":2721.284,"text":"那我們在打造地方創生狼呆的部分是希望基於過去我們在地方創生已經做了非常好的一個發展那我們現在希望利用這些成功的點把它整合起來讓它樹大便是美能夠帶動更熱鬧更繁榮的地方這個是我們現在選的四個點正在進行"},{"start":2722.245,"end":2744.812,"text":"那另外我們也針對中興新村我們重新再規劃中興新村希望中興新村更活絡起來所以我們在今年的荷花季我們會辦音樂會然後也辦野餐會我們希望讓中興新村野起來然後加上地方創生跟產品的市集我們現在的市集會搭配到在地的政府一起把它開發起來"},{"start":2746.252,"end":2762.033,"text":"另外我們在淨零公正轉型我們現在積極在推動我們希望在每一個淨零過程中受影響的人都能夠得到照顧譬如說我們要收碳費如果比較弱勢的企業需要協助或者是需要協助員工轉業的時候我們都會"},{"start":2764.296,"end":2781.926,"text":"請到勞動部各個單位進行協助那在譬如說我們現在推動電動機車的時候呢對傳統機車行可能有所影響那我們也會積極的輔導跟協助那這些都是淨零工程軟體在做的事情那我們會推動各部會一起來共同實踐跟發展"},{"start":2783.627,"end":2802.399,"text":"那在人才的部分呢我們會積極的去去更開放我們這個人才的這個法規讓我們的這個延展人才的這個法令更加的鬆綁吸引我們希望創造比較好的吸引條件去協助企業去招攬各地的人那另外我們在工建的規劃裡面我們現在開始的強化在"},{"start":2805.172,"end":2822.041,"text":"產品那個整個計劃的生命週期的管理我們希望讓我們的這個很多的問題發生在整個計劃的執行過程中就可以看到然後及早的因應讓我們的執行率拉高那也因為這樣的關係我們大概我們在去年執行的金額也達到了這17年的新高"},{"start":2823.081,"end":2840.354,"text":"那另外在我們法規的法規鬆綁裡面我們持續跟美歐日紐澳等商會我們大概得到了1231個建言我們逐一透過各部位的溝通我們也有2394項的成果去排除了這些外國企業來到這裡的投資障礙"},{"start":2842.195,"end":2867.492,"text":"讓我們更吻合世界的潮流那另外我們也制定了公共政策參與平台我們也採納了172項進行這個協助我們做改革那我們也有一個公報網頁去對大家開放最後在我們國家檔案館我們在2025年會有一個重大的年底我們國家第一個就是首座國家檔案館在"},{"start":2869.034,"end":2886.532,"text":"領口會正式的啟用在2025年的年底那這將是我們國內第一個這個檔案館那這是我們今年最重大的一件事情那它的整個儲存將會是國際標準那我們現在整個儲存容量也會升級到100公里"},{"start":2887.192,"end":2911.602,"text":"我們現有的儲存量是已經接近滿那未來這個會有4倍的儲存量相較於我們現在那也會照我們也希望帶動整個在檔案管理上面跟這個開放跟推動民間使用的部分能夠更完整那以上就是這個我對於我們今年施政報告的簡易報告謝謝各位委員的聆聽"},{"start":2913.598,"end":2919.302,"text":"好 謝謝劉主委我們現在請問各位同仁上次會議議事錄有無錯誤"},{"start":2922.585,"end":2943.982,"text":"好沒錯誤那一書確定那我們現在就開始進行詢答委員詢答前原例做以下宣告每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記現在請林戴化委員進行詢答有請主委"},{"start":2959.877,"end":2978.162,"text":"主委啊 這個您的簡報做得非常的完整但本席認為您在這個國發基金及所有相關的基金的投資投資新創也是你的重點但是我希望聚焦在傳產的升級及你整篇沒有提到綠色金融"},{"start":2979.229,"end":3005.877,"text":"一個字都沒提到那我不曉得你對綠色金融科技這件事情是認為這個是不重要還是說在你們的施政當中認為這個不是重點因為你也在推動淨零你現在政府推的兩大政策就是第一個所有大中小的所謂企業你一定推AI智慧化的一個環境的建置第二個是淨零碳排"},{"start":3006.497,"end":3031.943,"text":"竟然是這兩個就相關的AI的技術智慧化的技術以及淨零碳排的技術其實就已經有這個市場了我們最好的是希望市場去驅動你整個產業的發展但我們現在是用補助政策的引導補助去誘發產業的發展但這是一個路徑但是如果市場本身有這個需求現在可以看到說淨零節能"},{"start":3033.824,"end":3057.425,"text":"這個AI竟然已經有這個市場了那你是否讓相關有相關這些技術的人他可能缺乏資金他在金融上他比較沒有他可能可以因為這個市場有他有一個很明確的產業的標的進而我可以協助他在金融當中的一個支持這個金融這個綠色金融的一個支持"},{"start":3058.546,"end":3074.541,"text":"應該是要這樣子啊或者你光是現在有近鄰的市場有AI的市場但是你只單靠補助但是你在我們大概會做這些技術研發的大概都是一個中小企業當然你有講到新創可是如果你能夠特別把"},{"start":3075.782,"end":3091.017,"text":"綠色金融因為你政府在推市場也有這個需求國際也在推這個東西已經有這個市場了你如何讓市場帶動所有的這些中小企業加上你的新創但是我聚焦在綠色金融的部分"},{"start":3091.818,"end":3105.747,"text":"才能夠讓所有中小企業去帶動這個幫這些中大型企業或中小企業他們去做這些的這個淨零也好 AI也好啊所以我沒有看到你綠色金融也難怪現在綠色金融的產品你們也講金管會也講你們呢 不講可是又可以隻字片語看到行政院的什麼的公佈我們要推動綠色金融我們沒有產品"},{"start":3117.435,"end":3129.828,"text":"好所以呢在這邊我幾個幾個這個質詢的議題第一個就是您的投資技巧我是非常肯定的第二個你們對於傳統產業升級的重視本行認為應該還要加大加深加碼第三個你們也應該要致力於綠色金融創新而且標的就以我高雄為主高雄是最好發展"},{"start":3139.238,"end":3146.561,"text":"綠色軍農科技的一個這個旗艦的城市好你們的這個投資績效這個其實剛才你有講其實從你國庫原始撥補的309億到現在去年9月為止你們增加了1兆5770億這個是成績斐然那投資的重點也有在一些新興產業本期也肯定你們在海事綠能半導體跟生技等"},{"start":3166.648,"end":3189.9,"text":"但是你們固然有投資營運績效的責任但是你們確實有擔負起加速產業創新價值促進經濟轉型及國家發展而協助我國產業創新價值研究發展及自創品牌的任務所以本席也反對不當的調查跟干擾專業投資請國發會務必堅守國家的利益跟使命"},{"start":3193.041,"end":3197.944,"text":"好你們也應該重視傳統產業有在你們的基金當中我有看到其中你們的這個哇這個你的第九頁哇你的這個第九頁有把這個也有產業再造基金你們的好多的好多相關的這個基金你都也有這個智慧醫療創新產業AI新創產業產業再造基金你們在去年8月又成立了一個30億的產業再造基金"},{"start":3220.78,"end":3243.776,"text":"那呢希望這個部分呢我想理解你的投資標的是什麼是你這第11頁講的五大信賴產業校園創投基金綠色成長淨零產業嗎還是本席看到的在媒體上看到是你們要翻轉至少三個弱勢產業那這是到底你這個基金的目的是什麼"},{"start":3244.076,"end":3268.446,"text":"是的這個產業再造基金是以這個傳產為主那他主要的做法跟顛覆傳統他就是投資者以後會有比較專業的人士進來協助這個企業在做管理跟營運的再造就不是只有單純的資金投資那這樣的基金補助啊既然你也鎖定傳統產業我希望再聚焦"},{"start":3269.815,"end":3288.521,"text":"某些產業那譬如說石化模具塑膠射出及金屬構建你要這些產業一定譬如說在石化業全國最聚集的產業聚集最一條龍的就在我高雄石化業那他一定有他們共通的譬如說AI的科技"},{"start":3289.501,"end":3304.051,"text":"淨零的科技捕捉碳排的這個相關的科一定有一些共通的你投入這個產業的特別在AI的科技的建置或者是這個智慧化的建置它一定有這些產業共同會使用的技術嘛甚至有些融資這些中小企業它實話也可能一定不會有淨零補碳的技術啊誰會有可能這些新創業者會有啊"},{"start":3314.238,"end":3317.98,"text":"新創業者小啊可是標的有啊石化業這麼大這麼多啊所以你應該要讓這些這個傳統產業當中你應該鎖定然後進而這樣才會有亮點嘛你的讓他們在因應美國這個關稅提高以及中國廉價產品的傾銷的時候才有辦法船廠升級進入高石化好本席這邊還要講到一點我希望國發會在南部設置據點國發會"},{"start":3342.049,"end":3359.304,"text":"高雄或者是國發會南部辦公室設置在高雄這當中你不是第一例在本席過往當中我已經在我的立處之下中華經濟研究院這樣的一個智庫已經在高雄有辦公室而且運作多年 商發院"},{"start":3360.024,"end":3387.694,"text":"服務業在高雄也有南部據點這個公園院在南部也有據點南院喔在這個台南我都覺得非常的好而且都行之多年了那為什麼要你在南部呢進行專案輔導呢因為我們船廠跟中小企業中南部的業者面對政府的資源有三個特色第一個不知道第二個不會寫第三個不會過"},{"start":3389.355,"end":3402.487,"text":"這就有這三個特色那你會講這個是經濟部做的事情啊這個經濟部有啊他們這個產發署就在做這件事情啊跟你這件那你跟他的區別在哪裡你跟他的區別在哪裡你的區別就是你能夠聚焦某些產業"},{"start":3406.55,"end":3424.722,"text":"因為在高雄很明顯 我剛才講了我們高雄的一些產業是石化 模具 社交 社租 金屬構建我們所研發的所有的中小企業全部遍布高雄所以你應該在據點的時候你才會聽我們在地的業者心 而不是遠在台北啊然後你們的這個審議的機制也都在台北啊"},{"start":3428.624,"end":3440.597,"text":"然後再來我們本來就有規劃今年2月要設結果南部辦公室因為預算被砍以後關掉所以我們現在正在另密新的場地在高雄嗎對在高雄好那非常好那就開始了那我現在講這個綠色金融"},{"start":3444.241,"end":3461.27,"text":"好這個綠色金融呢我認為國發會應該跨部會整合淨零科技金融創新AI產業AI產業化開放境外產業資產的管理規劃國發會基金投資綠色金融科技好我光是講到這幾個你已經是"},{"start":3463.351,"end":3482.916,"text":"缺乏統整經各行其事這個是在綠色金融當中為什麼我們要落實以ESG永續發展為目標以數位科技為手段推出金融產品跟這個投資方案目前因為缺乏統整各行其事成銷甚微你給他看淨零科技在哪個部位"},{"start":3484.312,"end":3495.844,"text":"跟國雲報告我們在去年年底我們匡列了100億給到環境部我們希望環境部來推動您所提示我們的淨零科技來來來淨零科技在環境部"},{"start":3500.609,"end":3503.35,"text":"在這個經濟部兩個都有金融這個創新跟開放境外資產管理這個本來就有在推的這兩個在金管會這個會議在高雄有但是還金管會那AI產業呢在蘇發部所以你要光靠一個所以國發會應該協助這幾個部會不是只有這個環境部而已喔"},{"start":3528.718,"end":3531.059,"text":"光是環境部他能夠整合這些而有產生綠色金融的產品以我高雄為什麼我說高雄他這個商業模式就這樣靠近資金靠近市場靠近這個人才或者靠近你的原料是在哪裡就靠近這四個高雄全部都有"},{"start":3553.064,"end":3576.612,"text":"只差你國發會的整合因為基金在你手上好那所以呢我們的優勢我們土地豐沛你看這個全這個面積2952好那這個平方公里我們優勢二產業聚落完整優勢三我窮獲的高雄科技人才的基礎我們這麼多的大學包括這個清華陽明交通大學都設在高雄了的分校以及優勢四我們有這個政府的"},{"start":3579.693,"end":3602.29,"text":"聚焦的這個政策有S藍帶的半導體有大南方有亞灣等先進科技都在高雄已經形成科技的這個區域了僅差你國發會的整合區域的這個資源形成示範的效益好我具體建議國發會基於區域平衡在高雄設置國發基金南部辦公室現在本席要求兩個業務第一個30億的產業再造基金匡列15億"},{"start":3606.733,"end":3626.406,"text":"提供中南部主題式的輔導計畫避免中南部產業成為國發基金的投資偏鄉第二個整合我高雄的現有的優勢提出綠色金融的落實方案整合跨領域的資源建立綠色科技金融的示範程式主委您回應一下吧"},{"start":3627.827,"end":3640.303,"text":"這個我們再回去研究一下跟好 我要講你不要想說15億很多你要曉得產業巨弱中南部 紐約 伊朗包括我們今天的昭緯他在雲林"},{"start":3642.466,"end":3644.648,"text":"在彰化以南我們的中小企業聚集最多傳產聚集天多 幾乎是七三比跟中南 和北部所有中小企業跟傳統產業是七三比所以30億的產業再造金 本息應該怎麼建議應該是70%在 或是在北部但是我沒有 我還很厚道 我說只剩一半"},{"start":3672.268,"end":3694.969,"text":"在中南部的主題市的輔導避免中南部你們才會積極的投入啊然後呢再來我綠色金融當中的一個靠近市場靠近人才都在我高雄那所以呢請你們也聚焦在這個南部辦公室一定要在怎麼高雄成為綠色科技金融的示範城市你們這個辦公室也要提出方案可以嗎"},{"start":3696.125,"end":3721.378,"text":"這個我會跟金管會討論之後跟委員做說明好 你看喔 你講的綠色金融你講到金管會可是真的產業的發展在環境部跟這個經濟部可是你想到金融其實那是可是金融它只是一個它的產品當中你們確定了我錢給你嘛就這樣而已 可是你的產品在哪裡當然是那兩個部會啊所以為什麼要國發會你出來整合以上 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":3723.598,"end":3751.255,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請我們邱益穎委員做詢答謝謝主席 我是不是請一下國發會有主委有主委邱委員早"},{"start":3752.129,"end":3777.359,"text":"主委早主委我想最近的在台灣這個台積電到美國去投資這件事情其實不管是在台灣或者是在美國都引起相當大的關注那尤其在台灣我們自己本國有非常多非常多的討論大部分的討論聚焦都會說台積電到美國去投資未來是不是變成美積電"},{"start":3779.32,"end":3803.111,"text":"那我其實一直覺得就整個商業的立場或者是在整個半導體發展的戰略考量上面台積電是不是應該要走出去應該是要佈局國際佈局全球不管是在日本或者是在美國或者是在其他的地方"},{"start":3804.692,"end":3821.994,"text":"我不知道國發會在這件事情上面的看法是什麼因為大家問了經濟部國部長問了卓榮泰院長好像還沒有人來問過您主委我覺得站在國家發展的策略國家發展的角度上我想聽一下您的看法"},{"start":3822.955,"end":3841.062,"text":"我們總統有一個經濟日不落國的願景所以其實我們也是基於這個願景我們是希望台灣的企業能夠力主台灣進行全球的市場那每一個企業其實我在企業待很久企業都希望讓自己能夠國際化"},{"start":3842.463,"end":3862.517,"text":"那國際化才有國際化的市場台灣今天科技業能有今天主要是世界提供我們這麼大的市場我們才有今天否則我們是非常微小的企業那另外一個我想跟委員報告一下NVIDIA來這邊設電它不會變成台灣NVIDIA也不會洩露NVIDIA的機密"},{"start":3863.237,"end":3883.004,"text":"微軟在這邊設那麼多年杜邦在這邊這麼多年他們也沒有洩密過他也沒有變成台灣的公司一樣的台灣的企業其實很多像台積電在中國設廠很久但是沒有一個機密外洩所以我們應該要相信台積電有能力保護自己那也要支持台積電進軍全世界"},{"start":3883.72,"end":3908.026,"text":"主委您這個論點非常重要也非常好可惜在前面這一段時間大概很少聽到您在這一方面的談話我覺得這個其實是要強化國人對於企業佈局國際的這樣一個宏觀戰略的思考跟防度散播流言的這樣的一個"},{"start":3910.134,"end":3912.216,"text":"所以台積電到美國去設廠我們的關鍵技術其實還是鎖在台灣還是鎖在自己核心內圈它不會變成美積電"},{"start":3932.817,"end":3956.978,"text":"那就你們的整體的管制原則您前幾天有特別講到就是說台積電到美國投資適用N-1的規定你們會堅守這三大原則所以這三大原則在台積電到美國去設廠之前是不是政府已經完全有通過所謂的這個三大管制原則"},{"start":3957.739,"end":3978.377,"text":"第二個我要請教就是說台積電現在走向國際那對於人才的需求一定是非常的大量您擔不擔心台灣的人才已經面臨不足的狀態會不會又被磁吸過去一窩蜂的全部往美國跑了那台灣怎麼辦"},{"start":3982.091,"end":4002.229,"text":"這幾點很快速跟委員報告第一個我們跟台積電本來就有溝通那台積電的做法是這樣他一定要用台灣的人才跟台灣的技術因為他們告訴我的說是台灣人才是最好的所以他每一個最新的製程一定在台灣運作到非常的順暢才會出去"},{"start":4002.97,"end":4019.757,"text":"但是現在一個世代他一個產品丟出去要六個月才會完成所以整個磨練過來至少會經過一年半最快一年半到兩年他才會進入穩定期穩定期才會出去蓋工廠工廠再一蓋又要蓋一年多所以他會落後台灣"},{"start":4020.457,"end":4037.964,"text":"大概將近三年的一個世代這是絕對的這個不只是政府的管理這個當然進到了投審會投審會一定會去管理他那這是確定的第二個是人才的部分美國其實也有限制工作許可證他不會那麼多人都可以"},{"start":4038.984,"end":4060.882,"text":"所以他沒有辦法那麼多人過去但是有沒有可能我們比如說我們要從美國挖一些他們的這些科技人才他可能是台籍的或者是台裔的那有沒有可能這些人就不回來了直接就留在美國工作留在美國的台積電工作那個除非是他原來就在製造業待的人才會過去因為以美國的工作條件裡面"},{"start":4062.023,"end":4079.822,"text":"科技業跟金融業都比製造業來的性質優渥所以其實沒有那麼好競爭的所以你對於人才流失這一塊你不擔心但是你對於台灣的整體的人才培育這一塊你擔不擔心你覺得我們有沒有什麼更好的方法可以留住這些好人才"},{"start":4080.78,"end":4106.692,"text":"基本上台灣的人才外流的並沒有比例是並沒有那麼高那我們因為主要是台灣主要是提供的就業機會比別人多造成我們現在事業率是歷史性低的3.4左右那多數人才都是在大概一畢業就很容易找到工作所以台灣的就業環境非常好反而我們在今年年初到美國去攬財的時候就發現很多台灣人是有想回來"},{"start":4107.492,"end":4132.148,"text":"所以我們現在辦的幾場說明會大概有將近1600人左右參加我們的說明會所以你覺得這些人可以回來嗎這個主委啊我接下來要問您的大概就是跟攬財有關整個經濟的展望你們預估今年的成長率會超過3%對不對但是整個國際的局勢是不穩定的"},{"start":4132.708,"end":4155.159,"text":"所以你如何確定你的經濟成長率是可以超過3%那您剛剛講的這些比如說您的報告有一個五大信賴產業這個大概是跟AI有相關的政府的投資跟政府的輔導跟我們整個要投入的人力物力財力在總預算面臨被砍成這樣的時候請問你們要怎麼運作"},{"start":4157.555,"end":4167.701,"text":"的確在我們的預算裡面受到傷害比較大是在產業處我們產業處刪的是最多產業處總共被刪多少錢?你現在計算出來了嗎?我們被刪了5700萬左右"},{"start":4174.946,"end":4201.224,"text":"那這個是我們現在也希望儘快如果是解凍的部分我們能夠看看儘快能解凍那我們能夠來往下運作那但是在這個情況下我們還是會積極的推動整個產業的發展我們現在也會積極往這個軟體平台等等的去發展那我們也在規劃我們新的這個產業規劃所以我們會在現有的環境下盡量去"},{"start":4202.079,"end":4220.1,"text":"主委南北區域不平衡南北的這個區域失衡的狀態啊我想你應該很清楚嘛對不對我們講的五大信賴產業那現在的整個投資比例還是北部偏高啊中南部的廠商其實是偏少"},{"start":4221.004,"end":4239.896,"text":"那這一點你們要怎麼樣強化要怎麼樣去做我們現在訂了幾個措施你的產業處錢被砍了那國發會要到南部去設立另外的辦公室也沒錢了沒場地了南部行政中心大概現在也只剩下非常非常基本的運作業務費被砍了96%請問你們要怎麼做"},{"start":4244.171,"end":4266.915,"text":"我們有幾個第一個我們正在商界經濟部在雅灣的辦公室讓我們的國發基金可以進駐那第二個部分是我們現在會積極的跟幾個部會推動雅灣的部分在尤其在AI在軟體部分那尤其是搭配未來鴻海在那邊設點跟Media的合作那我們會積極的推動以軟體為核心讓這個台灣的軟體產業的"},{"start":4271.696,"end":4287.501,"text":"核心變道在高雄那我們現在大概朝這個方向在積極的去做這個主要我要跟您談的就是說我覺得在區域平衡上面其實現在就像您剛剛報告裡頭有特別提到南部尤其是高雄"},{"start":4289.421,"end":4316.193,"text":"台南高雄其實跟北部已經形成兩個科技中心已經是兩個科技的大的產業聚落但是南部相對起來還是在正在起步的階段其實需要給予更多的關心甚至給予更多的協助讓更多的科技產業AI產業能夠進駐到南部來緩解北部的這個擁塞"},{"start":4317.934,"end":4339.709,"text":"所以我覺得在整體的規劃上面你們現在講都是說你會盡量協助啦你們會盡力去推動啦但是實際推動的計畫是什麼我們到目前為止沒有看到那因為我的質詢時間已經到了主委我可不可以請你們再送一份比較細部的資料給本席好不好"},{"start":4339.969,"end":4353.058,"text":"好的 我們會強化在高雄的發展至少讓我知道一下你們未來在高雄的整體的這些產業規劃發展到底會用在什麼地方 到底會怎麼做好的 好嗎 謝謝好的 謝謝薇恩好 謝謝我們現在請張祺凱委員來做詢答"},{"start":4381.612,"end":4409.034,"text":"請主委好 劉主委委員長國發會非常的重要它是我們國家發展的總舵手領頭羊我剛剛看你的報告有特別提到用水跟用電上這段時間民眾最關心的就是不是雙台效應現在是不是有三個颱風要來了"},{"start":4412.063,"end":4438.758,"text":"水要漲了電要漲了台鐵也要漲了所以連央行都出來示警了央行說啊如果這三個全部都漲的話我們的CPI會衝破百分之二的這個警界線當初定這個百分之二就是有可能通膨嘛 對不對那這個對我們的民生跟產業衝擊會非常非常的大"},{"start":4441.393,"end":4448.53,"text":"請問國發會 諸委你們有做什麼樣的因應例如說可以讓這個電價不要漲或者是怎麼樣對人民的這個衝擊是小一點的"},{"start":4449.205,"end":4474.833,"text":"因為這個電價漲不漲或者是票價漲不漲不在國安會的權責那我們現在就是透過我們的物價督導匯報的我們是這個單位的幕僚我們會大概會對幾個重要的物資譬如說黃曉玉這個的那個關稅啦或者是一些消費稅上面然後能源的那個相關的稅賦上面我們會進行抵檢然後做一些措施來"},{"start":4476.113,"end":4497.844,"text":"所以國發會是我們整個經濟發展經濟大經濟會的一個領頭羊你是經濟經濟會跟原卡會合在一起的所以是整個國家發展水跟電對你來講當然很重要不過當初我的了解包括總統找你來一開始除了你的專業之外不是很重要就是要解決讓電可以穩定嗎是不是"},{"start":4501.861,"end":4525.727,"text":"現在電價你至少現在做一件事情嘛讓電是穩定的讓電價不要一直漲我覺得這是國發會非常非常重要的任務我們也有反映民間的一些看法給到經濟部那經濟部我想他們在做任何事情都會考慮到這個產業的看法那的確有一些產業有跟我們反映我們都有反映過去"},{"start":4526.314,"end":4553.807,"text":"所以一方面是人在公民好修行苦民所苦民眾在擔心整個物價的一個高漲電價帶動整個物價的這個高漲這對人民生活衝擊是很大的那對整個產業的發展也是很重要的啊所以我今天給你看一個解決的方案大家看一下這是2006年開始一直到2024年整個平均電價的一個走勢圖波動"},{"start":4555.438,"end":4573.809,"text":"你會發現一個非常重要的,我們在裡面再找答案馬英九在2008年上任,執政了8年2016年交給蔡英文他接的時候啊,一度墊,我們用了一度墊2塊6左右經過8年啦,還是2塊6你會發現馬英九的這8年"},{"start":4580.611,"end":4606.68,"text":"電價漲了四次可是大家很多人都忘記了它後面這兩年 降了三次現在讓我們擔心的這也是國發會馬上要去處理的蔡英文的八年 漲了四次賴清德總統 去年的十月份已經漲了一次了 對不對現在十月一號 宜蘭姐又漲一次像充電炮耶"},{"start":4607.662,"end":4622.081,"text":"你會發現馬英九是上去之後四次完以後降了三次等於只有上一次對不對電價維持在一度是兩塊六結果你從蔡英文的八年一直大帶輕的這樣一直衝上去兩塊六現在已經到達三塊四、三塊五了"},{"start":4624.09,"end":4645.326,"text":"第一個人民負擔很重對不對第二個可能更嚴重啊三個颱風要來特別是電價對我們人民對物價衝擊很大啊國發會有責任去弄清楚為什麼馬英九當初國際的這個油價上漲的時候他上來為什麼他後來有辦法連山降為什麼民進黨沒辦法"},{"start":4648.742,"end":4672.947,"text":"問題是不是在兩個指揮你這問題在哪裡為什麼馬英九時代可以下來為什麼民進黨這八年包括現在賴清德總統一直往上衝沒辦法降還在漲為什麼委員您是財經專家應該記得油價當年是從30幾塊我講馬英九那個時候衝到了100多塊大概到120幾那時候還謠言會到150所以那個時候他成本大幅的上漲就往上走後來"},{"start":4673.667,"end":4699.826,"text":"整個油價又大幅的往下到60塊左右那當然它有漲的空間跟跌的空間那後面這幾年其實都是想要穩定所以就一直撐著撐到那時候是石油對不對主委你也是專家不要講那個重要當初馬英九碰到是石油上漲那現在現在蔡英文總統民進黨政府那時候碰到是烏克蘭戰爭天然氣嘛對不對天然氣在烏克戰爭的第二年就前年就掉下來了嘛"},{"start":4700.748,"end":4719.802,"text":"你現在去看國際的燃料的價格,全部都是往下走的所以就出了兩個問題一個是核電,一個是綠電的問題這兩個是以前馬英九沒有的民進黨政府現在做的兩件事情是以前馬英九沒有做的就是挖了兩個財政的大黑洞"},{"start":4720.95,"end":4731.503,"text":"核電 核一廠被停了核二廠被停了核三廠 醫藥機被停了馬上5月17號這個是你要一些關心的馬上停了以後一年的發電成本過電成本比以前多了1000億所以才會搞到你已經撥補了三次3000億丟下去"},{"start":4739.107,"end":4756.641,"text":"無底洞啊你還是補不了啊所以你現在又要1000億老實講再給你你還是補補不了要去解決核電的問題這是一個第一個綠電買得太貴這也是另外一個大的漏洞了你買進來的綠電後來賣出去的台電只有賣了10%90%都沒有賣出去所以企業買不到電更嚴重的台電因為這樣子一年多花了600億1000加600億每一年都1600億"},{"start":4767.529,"end":4794.697,"text":"這不是波普跟漲價可以解決問題的要治本嘛 不要頭痛就一腳啊所以國發會有責任整個政府有責任去把病因找出來解決核電的問題解決綠電的這個問題這就不用漲電價啊可以像馬英九這樣可以下降啊所以我們現在期待看到的如果國發會提出一個比較理性專業的一個建議我們期待事業要看到的不是上價是往下降"},{"start":4796.024,"end":4809.296,"text":"我們會 這個謝謝委員 我們會去給經濟部建議啦那我也順便也報告我們 我有問過郭部長在綠電的部分是這樣子因為綠電需求來自於企業 所以它的綠電並不會到民間 會到企業那綠電成本的確一定是比較貴 但企業願意花比較高的代價去買"},{"start":4816.602,"end":4838.022,"text":"那目前的狀況 那綠電並不影響到我們現在就是很多企業或者工業區 去工業區的時候他們在陳情說買不到綠電嘛那現在這個台電今年開始要賣RE30這是一個起步啦可是現在很明顯就是因為你們以前買的每一年買了300億度的綠電喔結果後來都用髒電的價格3點多4點多就賣出去了所以賠了"},{"start":4839.096,"end":4861.935,"text":"成本賠了600億那我們希望這個速度要加快你600億就可以回來了嘛對不對而且企業可以用到電嘛人民不用被漲電價這是三零嘛這要趕快做好不好好那我們來談核能核能最近有幾個非常重要的發展第一類AIT的處長谷麗妍啊接受自由時報的專訪的時候她明確講了一共啊"},{"start":4862.901,"end":4889.397,"text":"核能啊放眼全世界包括美國跟日本在內都在復甦使用核能就這兩個跟我們最好的也是我們最重要的盟邦也是一個先進國家的美跟日他們在重新用核電然後他特別提到這是因為很多公司需要穩定的基載電力等於核電是一個穩定的基載電力嘛對不對特別AI需要用很多電嘛"},{"start":4890.171,"end":4914.677,"text":"美國跟日本都這樣做啦,更重要啦,你看這個美國的AIT的促定,美國願意幫台灣包括核能的部分這是釋放一個很重要的訊息我們美國這樣做,你台灣現在可能有電力的缺口不夠穩定或者是缺電,或者電價太貴,我要幫你發展核電啊,這個有沒有很重要"},{"start":4916.056,"end":4943.655,"text":"這個信息很重要吧這個我們會幫忙反映給經濟部那這個部分我想委員在這個總質詢也垂詢過我想院長也有跟部長都有一個清楚的回答如果有新的技術院長是表達他對新的技術是開放的等一下我們來談新的技術我再跟你看一個剛講的是現任的AIT的處長另外一個是前任的AIT的處長"},{"start":4944.562,"end":4967.048,"text":"司徒文 司徒文講得更白了 他是參加一個這個兵推啊他直接講了 他說台灣現在面臨電力的切剖當其他的國家都積極在擁抱核能的時候 為什麼台灣政府要排斥核電呢你看現任的跟上一任的都這樣建議了 這兩個人都很重要耶"},{"start":4968.12,"end":4994.781,"text":"不只國發會我這個政府現在要好好去思考美國都已經開口了他一直幫你了幫完以後有兩個很重要的嘛電價是可以降的第二個我們的電力是可以穩定的對台灣太重要了好不好那另外那天的兵推啊也提到一個很重要的說來講用核能我急著要提醒了現在政府不只把核電停掉了他現在極力的去發展這個用天然氣那天的兵推啊發現"},{"start":4997.13,"end":5015.694,"text":"我們的如果目前一直在發展這個目前用天然氣啊我們的能源的穩定啊風險係數達到0.99的幾乎是百分之百啦他做了一個兵推他說啊中共在南海強行去檢查我們的這個液化天然氣的這個船隻"},{"start":5019.629,"end":5040.942,"text":"昨天啊前天 中共不是一開始就要演習了嗎他不要打你啊 他只要圍你就好了十天 天然氣就斷氣了 台灣就斷氣了這個也是 拜託一下 注意現在所有停掉的核電 幾乎都是用天然氣來補天然氣在現在兩岸的關係搞得這麼緊張我們隨時會斷氣喔"},{"start":5045.595,"end":5068.471,"text":"好不好好最後我們來做一個總結就你剛講的你說院長那天提到說要有一個新的核能對不對我要問兩個問題院長是說不排斥院長那天是講不排斥嘛那所謂的新核能是什麼如果美國也開口了我們現在的核二廠看起來隨時可以重啟啊你看以前美國跟日本要重啟一個核電廠可能要五年六年"},{"start":5069.833,"end":5087.411,"text":"現在不是喔 現在大概都是只要確定是安全的一年到三年就可以用了所以核二很快就可以重新的啟用那問你 如果我們經過檢查之後核二廠跟核三廠是安全的可以重新再啟動它算不算行政院你們定義的新的這個核能"},{"start":5088.77,"end":5110.198,"text":"這個還是要由那個主管人員政策的經濟部來做決定那安全的部分要由核安會來做一個把關嘛安全當然有安全的部門嘛那現在就是行政院長這樣講他一直在講好幾次講新核能啊那我的問題是如果核落核酸重啟在安全狀況下重啟它算不算新核能還是只能用那個小型的"},{"start":5111.579,"end":5132.116,"text":"這要看他維修的時候有沒有做一些新的改變院長是誰要問過你問過相關的部門才能夠這樣講吧因為我不是核能的專家也不是全職單位所以他不會問我所以你對於新核能這個定義你不清楚那你個人覺得如果是核二核三在安全的狀況下如果要重啟新的核能我的了解有很多新的技術在發展"},{"start":5133.217,"end":5152.563,"text":"除了 SMR 以外,事實上還有像 Bill Gates 投資的它是用氨然後去把輻射下降但它的新的危險是它比較容易爆炸這種新的技術還有在我們看到非常多合融合的技術在各個研究單位都在進行中所以這個就我們了解新的技術都還是"},{"start":5153.843,"end":5182.995,"text":"我個人是有一些了解所以你是贊成你也肯定這種比較安全這種小型核能對不對現在只是說它的成本真的很高我比較保守看小型核能我沒有贊成我比較保守看這件事你是比較保守的原因是很簡單那你的看法跟那個院長可能就不一樣了這個照不是委員想想看我們現在去設一個變電所的零幣設施的抗爭就很大了我們去設一個SMR在它幾乎是以社區為主的話其實那個抗爭是我們不知道"},{"start":5183.755,"end":5207.811,"text":"可行性高不高我覺得你認為這個小型這個核電還要再觀察就對了我是覺得保守看待他啦因為他要民眾能接受在我家那你要跟院長要再溝通一下因為他一直在強調用新核能嘛那只有兩種可能性嘛一種是你現在有疑慮的他認為要那到底是裡面有什麼問題要把它解釋清楚那第二個對民眾來講我到底什麼時候可以用到這所謂的新核能"},{"start":5208.231,"end":5230.762,"text":"是核二核三重啟啦還是你說的這個電廠一直在講的這個小型的好不好這個要努力最後問一個最關鍵的今天開始今天開始馬上好今天最關鍵的我們立法院的委員會已經開始在審這個要讓這個核電廠可以研議的或者重啟的今天開始公聽會已經開始了我要請教主委你的這個個人這個意見你讚不讚成"},{"start":5232.055,"end":5249.761,"text":"讓我們的核電廠如果在安全的狀況之下核二的一號機二號機核三廠的一號機可以重新啟動或者讓核三廠的二號機可以沿用你個人的意見是怎麼樣我個人因為對這個領域沒有那麼熟悉但是我尊重各種法律的意見"},{"start":5251.189,"end":5259.101,"text":"那個諸位你是國家發展的領頭羊電力非常重要我今天用了很多的時間去講這個核電的對我們國家的這個發展它關係到穩定關係到電價可以不要漲"},{"start":5263.744,"end":5287.995,"text":"所以請國發會我建議這部分一定要不只是要關心要提出你們的規劃好不好好的我們來努力我記得國發會有責任4月1號能不能最近電價委員會馬上就要開了如果提到我們剛剛講的它會穩定來用便宜的核電連美國都開口了然後綠電趕快能夠賣出去的不要用高價買用低價去賣滿足我們的企業讓價格降下來只要解決核能跟"},{"start":5288.868,"end":5297.011,"text":"核能的問題還有綠電這個問題我們不只不用上架 可以降價 好不好一起努力 好不好謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請陳超明委員做詢答首先有請我們國務大會 劉主委劉主委"},{"start":5322.154,"end":5340.682,"text":"陳委員長劉指揮好聲音好像太小了聽不怎麼清楚陳委員長我看到劉指揮你們國會會的業務報告憑良心講寫得很好跟農業不一樣都非常的清楚這點要一一肯定"},{"start":5341.877,"end":5355.752,"text":"那今天我第一個要請教你的問題你是台積電的董事那現在台積電是不是會去接收或是跟英特爾合作你是當時呢這點我很肯定我們董事會從來沒有討論過這個議題"},{"start":5364.094,"end":5388.02,"text":"台積電從來沒有談過沒有因為這個裡面啦我們電腦工業理事長也就是合作的董事長他講的說最好不要你記住這句話他是那種心聲講出來好像很痛苦的樣子因為以前Intel在台灣對電腦可以說以求以啟"},{"start":5389.482,"end":5413.435,"text":"台灣當時都只有敢怒不敢言希望你能瞭解這一點這個我瞭解因為你瞭解因為這個像柴油跟汽油是很難混在一起燒的那所以呢好第二個問題這點要特別的注意不要製造對手要把台積電打垮了"},{"start":5415.473,"end":5441.779,"text":"你也是台積電的董事現在台積電在美國投資了將近1650億但是你再講最新的制式絕對不會過去最關鍵的機制不准過去國家安全優先你會堅持到底這個是我在你有信心還是沒有信心你要告訴我這個人不要講官話"},{"start":5443.764,"end":5468.971,"text":"這個是我絕對有信心喔而且我也跟這個郭部長我們探討過這個問題再來台積電也跟我講他最新的製程一定是在台灣我真的聽不怎麼清楚你那邊聲音能大一點嗎所以我要掏氣陳昌昌部長你們沒有LP我現在舉一個例子跟你講高通區域"},{"start":5470.066,"end":5476.84,"text":"那個獨佔的那個懷款台灣把7億美金變成一個投資的方案啊我覺得你有那麼大膽的勇氣啊"},{"start":5484.029,"end":5505.67,"text":"你覺得川普的胃口那麼小嗎?要讓美國再次的偉大你給他N1、N-2他會不會接受?他要獨抱這個世界啊?所以你講這話我一點信心也沒有你跟我發誓你堅持到底"},{"start":5506.989,"end":5507.75,"text":"我一定堅持到底啊"},{"start":5519.554,"end":5544.972,"text":"我一定堅持到底啊我堅持到底,一定會守住這個原則阿你不做官就不堅持到底,我看你堅持到底,大概你官也做不久了我講這個話,懷疑美國論,你是不懷疑的,才能繼續的做我們不會懷疑自己的友方啦,但是該堅持的事情我一定堅持到現在執政黨都是抗中保台"},{"start":5546.226,"end":5562.819,"text":"那你劉主委最勇敢,靠美保台,我講的靠美保台就是靠美國保台基電,能不能做到?我覺得我沒有什麼信心,從高中的世界,我們不要說幾位啦,像你一樣都了解彼此啦,怎麼樣?"},{"start":5564.332,"end":5590.071,"text":"敢不敢抗美 保台積電 抗美保台保台積電不需要抗美啦我們就是堅持我們保台積電技術但是我很懷疑啦好不好你真的不用懷疑啦我可以我的位子來擔保你要曉得啊上次在講台積電的麻煩核心技術商業機密都要給他了你還有什麼能力啊"},{"start":5591.109,"end":5611.256,"text":"人家別的國家烏克蘭要遷土地的培安納戈還可以順便一點沒有台灣是白白的我送給你來幫他解培安培安在台灣設廠50年也有研發中心HP也有研發中心微軟也有研發中心但是我們一個技術也拿不到第二個你台積電的董事再多問你一點誰叫你要去當"},{"start":5622.033,"end":5647.952,"text":"那你至於台積電建廠到2030年就結束了台灣的晶片會何去何從第一個問題亞利桑那州的州長來台灣把台積電的供應鏈整個請他到美國投資那美國的話要再次的偉大他偉大在哪裡我要美國控制所有世界晶片的40%"},{"start":5649.773,"end":5660.684,"text":"如果這些周邊的產業鏈移到過去的話台灣剩下什麼我第一個重點2030年大概台積電建了這11場不會再繼續再電剛剛所講的台灣到2030年台積電用的電量24.7 將近三分之一"},{"start":5672.222,"end":5692.332,"text":"所以NAS的電也不夠他用你還有AI的資料中心用電也很窮所以你都說好聽整個產業鏈過去了要怎麼辦這是第一個問題第二個問題沒有跟台積電的產業鏈過去比如在台灣要銷到美國還是100%的關稅"},{"start":5695.393,"end":5701.344,"text":"我問這兩個問題你幫我回答一下我先跟委員解釋一下齁台積電整個產能的規劃80%在台灣"},{"start":5704.485,"end":5723.138,"text":"百分之八十在台灣 百分之八十在台灣 這是第一點第二點其實我們在看整個供應鏈 台灣最有可以再往上發展的是兩個部分一個是我們的材料 化學的部分 第二個部分是設備的部分大廠有辦法供應鏈過去 一般從本工廠到那一邊要學著過去的話很困難"},{"start":5728.061,"end":5743.49,"text":"如果要銷到美國也有關稅那麼高好好考慮這個問題不要只有報喜不報憂啊很多人都在探討這個問題啊產業鏈會空洞化2030以後我們的經濟變化會怎麼樣主委我希望你好好考慮一個問題好第二個問題再來好 你好好考慮如果能一個評估報告出來最好都要講實話"},{"start":5756.448,"end":5779.745,"text":"那現在兩岸的關係非常的嚴峻我們賴總統把中國當為境外的敵對勢力那ECO如果停下來的時候會怎麼樣現在我們對中國大陸去年的勝差還700億美元也是最大的勝差現在慢慢被美國"},{"start":5781.414,"end":5810.08,"text":"期待掉了那我現在問你ECFA在這樣一段下來的時候我們的傳統產業我們這些高科技產業你要怎麼辦好好想這個問題如果以目前的情勢我看起來很有可能中斷ECFA他已經在調查你請銷不對等的貿易條件你國外會主委要好好的應用這樣的問題"},{"start":5813.48,"end":5824.593,"text":"這個我有請教因為這經濟部全責我有請教過經濟部長他們是說去年他們就開始在協助廠商移轉市場我實在聽不太清楚你可以靠近麥克風嗎"},{"start":5827.147,"end":5841.65,"text":"這個問題是經濟部主導的所以我日前有請教過經濟部郭部長郭部長是明確的告訴我不能講陸委會的主導你要各種情報蒐集在一起你這樣說他就太不負責任了這是經濟部的事情經濟部去年就開始會經濟部合作在一起開始移轉市場這是經濟部說明的"},{"start":5854.735,"end":5880.824,"text":"你們不擔憂啦但是其實中小企業我們的企業也很擔憂好不好如果兩邊的關稅都整個提高的話台灣的市場要跑到哪裡跑到東南亞南向的政策還是到墨西哥去投資被關稅就全部趕到美國大陸台灣空中化想想未來會發生的事情"},{"start":5883.78,"end":5890.383,"text":"你要曉得川普的胃口不會那麼小啦要底要重演啦好不好注意一下這種情勢的發展那剛剛講到AI產業那我剛剛也講過台積電用電到了2030年已經將近"},{"start":5909.714,"end":5930.37,"text":"應該是四分之一將近25%我相信他不會在台灣在場未來台灣整個產業是跟著台積電在走他資質站得那麼高所以你要想到這幾年的一個後面的發展這幾年還可以維持住那"},{"start":5931.84,"end":5948.364,"text":"你國發會跟經濟部都一直在談AI的產業那台灣科技的產業裡面主要是做硬體的將近佔了世界的三分之一這是台灣的實力但是AI軟體產業我們的軟體產業佔不到1%"},{"start":5953.665,"end":5970.095,"text":"這是材料解決其實最有價值的就在軟體但是台灣的企圖太細至少軟體都抬來抬去沒有價值我是跟你良心講所以你現在有AI產業正在勢頭上"},{"start":5971.656,"end":5986.49,"text":"我希望國安委跟經濟部好好的去研究這個AI的硬體產業跟軟體產業一定要培植下來不然世界都在進步世界各地都在追趕"},{"start":5987.771,"end":6004.572,"text":"你也要把軟體產業應用的產業AI的應用產業建立起來台灣未來在未來裡面可能會遭遇到很大的困難你的看法是如何謝謝委員我們看法一致所以我們在去年的AI施政主軸裡面就軟體產業"},{"start":6005.693,"end":6029.946,"text":"解決方案產業是我們的最首要的業務那我們也跟業者還有協會哪裡協會我們都有溝通過我還拉著郭部長一起我們會建立台灣那個軟體的這個平台產業然後以大大小來發展第二個部分我們會強化在我們會強化在百工百業使用AI美國所有產業都是大資本"},{"start":6031.089,"end":6048.178,"text":"那中國大陸的Deep Sheet已經出來了不大不小的資本還有一家最近出來的一家聽說那個軟體產業都很好但是台灣還沒有看到AI軟體產業能參照我們自己的一片天地因為說硬體跟"},{"start":6050.662,"end":6068.636,"text":"軟體一定AI就是深度的學習很重要啊你要趕快建立起來天天不要自我陶醉啊說我們外銷很好啊我們長紅啊這個世界變化莫測隨時要倒隨時要有變化一個新的產品出來整個世界就變色了"},{"start":6069.617,"end":6083.674,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們在Deep-seek出來之後其實有些產業去研究發現它只有簡體的介面不能使用那產業幾乎現在都用聯發科做出來的類似Deep-seek的產品所以台灣現在也在發生這些其中"},{"start":6087.759,"end":6106.825,"text":"如何把軟體再去加強在世界上占有益息之內比什麼什麼還重要因為這個有2.3兆美元的市場規模啦所以我們希望從裡面拉到10%為臺灣加油啊 不然你要了解只有用體隨時大家都在趕說實在啦"},{"start":6109.298,"end":6109.758,"text":"我們現在請楊秋英委員做詢答"},{"start":6140.544,"end":6164.814,"text":"楊委員早主要好台積電董監事經理人持股的明細當中我們可以很顯示看出國發基金是台積電單一的最大股東它持有是6.38%的一個股份那麼近期台積電也宣布擴大對美國的投資計畫"},{"start":6166.115,"end":6195.519,"text":"引發了外界對於技術外流及國家安全的一個關注那麼主委你也曾經談過你要堅持的是最新的技術不會過去對不對你也說最關鍵的技術不准過去對不對那同時你還有一個三大原則之一也就是國家安全為優先是不是如此"},{"start":6197.187,"end":6206.589,"text":"是的到目前為止你仍舊是依這個原則嗎 是不是是的 這個我跟郭部長彼此之間有共識彼此之間的共識所以我們統計 只有統計到113年的前三季那麼台積電的股利收入是高達247.9億元"},{"start":6218.812,"end":6224.92,"text":"這是在113年的第三季那如果整年度來算應該可以達到389億元所以對國家的這個貢獻可以說財政貢獻是非常的好"},{"start":6234.131,"end":6254.471,"text":"但是在这样的一个情况之下我要请教主委台积电的技术领先性是其竞争优势的关键那即使遵守着主委你对外说的也就是赴美投资N-1的规定"},{"start":6255.131,"end":6283.721,"text":"仍可以導致美國半導體製造業能力的一個提升這是外界現在都在看的一個方向那進而也削弱了台灣在全球半導體供應鏈中的一個地位因為是我們的護國神山所以國防會你認為在台積電赴美投資N-1就能夠保證保護台灣"},{"start":6285.51,"end":6303.663,"text":"對角色地位嗎 請主委說明我跟委員報告台積電在南京設廠20年他沒有任何機密外洩反倒是我們可以看到其他的公司反而有控告一些員工把機密帶到對岸去"},{"start":6304.883,"end":6326.003,"text":"所以機密會不會外洩完全在一家公司的管控做得好不好那我的了解台積電現在內部所有的電腦是沒有硬碟的也沒有USB的它完全是在雲端裡面它的資料是保護得非常完整所以我對台積電做技術關鍵技術的保密我是目前是信心是很高的"},{"start":6326.485,"end":6348.937,"text":"信心是很高所以換句話說我們還是維持您所說的N-1這個情形就像微軟在這邊有研發中心IBM有研發中心可是他們從來沒有辦法我們從來拿不到因為每一個企業都有自己的機密管理的能力當然因為這個是他吃飯的最基本他不可能把他的飯碗砸掉"},{"start":6350.182,"end":6363.028,"text":"不可能把那個範圍砸掉再請主委針對本席的提問也就是說目前政府告訴我們的是以N-1的這個方向跟立場是不是還是維持"},{"start":6364.363,"end":6368.986,"text":"目前我們是維持的目前是維持而且在技術上台積電也就是政府的立場政府的立場還是N-1的這個立場嗎是的是的所以因此本席要因為大家"},{"start":6380.975,"end":6407.369,"text":"對台積電從開始到現在大家都號稱是護國神山所以我們仍舊希望怎麼樣能夠保護台灣讓台灣在整個的這個立場上還是都是佔非常重要的角色這是我相信所有的國人大家都很期待我們也希望政府的立場說的跟執行的是一致的 是嗎是的"},{"start":6408.53,"end":6432.378,"text":"好 接下來本席要請教我們針對於整個產業因為主委你也非常清楚本席不斷的在跟你討論我們除了AI我們除了高科技那最重要的我們台灣的傳統產業尤其本席來自於中部地區我們的機械手工具機工具機零組件"},{"start":6433.238,"end":6450.379,"text":"這是也是台灣非常重要的護國神山尤其我們在組裝方面都能夠有較低的成本去跟世界競爭這也是為我們國家爭取了很多的外匯那所以沒有理由不照顧他們本期跟你討論"},{"start":6451.6,"end":6462.862,"text":"2月13號的時候提出的2025年經濟展望的報告當中我們看到主要機構它測試我們今年的經濟成長大概介於在2.5%到3.42%那主計總數說可以超過3%以上但根據我們過去去年工具機的產業它的是衰退將近兩成"},{"start":6479.345,"end":6486.907,"text":"營建業受政策及資金的影響開工的量是萎縮的所以許多的中小企業根本沒有辦法生存不僅如此 我們的內需市場比較低迷比如說我們的餐飲零售業也面臨著消費力不足的困境"},{"start":6501.09,"end":6521.199,"text":"所以GDP整體雖然有成長 但是它是集中在少數高科技的產業其他的產業 尤其傳統產業 它的痛苦指數是在節節的上升所以本席要請教 國發會您是產業政策的總指揮"},{"start":6522.239,"end":6526.043,"text":"產業政策總指揮面臨到AI的產業熱度的高漲但是我們傳統產業卻陷入寒冬這樣子的一個產業結構的極端發展已經嚴重的影響到整個經濟性的穩定度政府你有什麼樣的對策呢請教"},{"start":6545.071,"end":6571.337,"text":"這個部分我們有幾個方向在跟產業溝通當然最主要我們還是要仰賴經濟部一起合作第一個部分就是通路的部分我們有跟工具機協會有稍微談到我們希望協助他們去做通路的建設舉個例子現在工具機成長速度比較快的市場在印度"},{"start":6571.917,"end":6599.664,"text":"那我們怎麼樣協助他們設立一個通路讓台灣的產業可以賣進去第二個是高質化的改變包括美國通路的掌握其實我們都有一系列在探討那我們也希望協助他們進入一個規模化然後更具規模競爭力在研發跟在技術上面另外我們也討論到怎麼樣去讓協助他們在我們現在主要的控制機台是來自日本跟德國怎麼樣進入盡快的到國產化來做這個事情"},{"start":6601.844,"end":6625.658,"text":"因為對岸也在做這件事情對你現在講到了這個部分本席要提醒像我們這一次在南港展出我們的這個工具機手工具機機械類別以及零組件大家非常的用心我們接單的成績非常好這是我們電機的一個平台但是我們憂心的是什麼關稅問題我們更憂心到匯率問題"},{"start":6631.161,"end":6649.046,"text":"這兩項是國防會你身為產業的總指揮官你必須要去跟相關單位去協助解決我們產業所碰到的重要問題關鍵點因為匯率不是我產業自己可以去決定"},{"start":6650.847,"end":6663.137,"text":"關稅也不是我廠家可以自己去決定那他需要靠政府所以政府你到底在我們整個產業的這個比例上面你要怎麼樣"},{"start":6664.468,"end":6680.837,"text":"提拨百分之多少來給我們的傳統產業來協助政策方向是有但是我們自己要努力可是我們碰到這非我所因素的條件是政府必須要做產業的靠山嘛對不對"},{"start":6682.058,"end":6696.819,"text":"對 所以我們現在有出口的融資的補助協助他們在 不是補助 就是的協助那我們協助他們在融資上面出口的融資成本比較低的一些幫助讓他們在出口上面可以降低他的壓力"},{"start":6697.259,"end":6723.657,"text":"那我們會針對這一點我們再來加強看看有沒有什麼可以更好的方案本席希望聽到你精進的方案因為已經進入寒冬這是我們國家最重要的產業經濟命脈就業人口多數在這環所以本席希望您給本席您將你精進的方案給本席你預計你一定要提升百分之多少來給我們傳統產業來協助他們"},{"start":6726.994,"end":6745.303,"text":"好的好不好好好那你大概多久時間可以給本席一個月內給你一個月內好那會提升比例嗎給我們的傳統產業我們會做一個整體的研究跟規劃我也會找經濟部一起來討論對然後朝提升的方向對不對"},{"start":6748.017,"end":6767.494,"text":"對 我們會怎麼樣強化好 那接下來最後一個議題本席每一年都要請問你但是我真的蠻憂心也就是針對於推動性平等的這個成效那我們看到勞動部的調查2024年的女性平均薪資327塊男性389"},{"start":6770.356,"end":6787.17,"text":"女性比男性要多工作58天才能夠達到男女全年薪資的相同那因此呢同酬日呢2月27日 較去年只有增加兩天但是本席給你一個一個類別來作為討論的範例電子零組件的製造業為例2020年的男性是668塊女性只有多少 諸位"},{"start":6799.482,"end":6823.173,"text":"393元他的相差41%在2023年以及2019年呢分別上升了1.9跟3.2%我請教主委在結果論來說我們男女同工不同酬的情況惡劣你國發會要怎麼樣去提升推動性別平等的一個成效請教主委"},{"start":6825.259,"end":6850.612,"text":"這個我可能要找我會來找那個勞動部來討論一下看看怎麼樣這到底細節是什麼原因我們針對原因來對你是整個產業的總指揮那你今天針對這個我們每一年都跟你討論同工不同酬女性的薪資差別那麼多"},{"start":6852.13,"end":6879.221,"text":"每一個部會的總total是由勞動部來調查那總政策應該在你的國防會所以我還是具體建議因為我每一年一定會提出這個議題但是我們看不到它的一個均衡性所以本期希望因為每一個勞動者都是我們非常重要的資產沒有理由讓女性跟男性差別這麼大"},{"start":6880.137,"end":6886.524,"text":"所以本席具體要求相關部會你是總領航者你必須要跟他們去討論怎麼樣讓男女能夠來做均權均衡才能夠達到整個產業勞動力的一個均衡嘛一個向上提升嘛"},{"start":6900.257,"end":6911.849,"text":"是不是我來瞭解一下因為我自己待過八家公司再加上現在政府都沒有男女的薪資之別薪資就是薪資主委你講到這個問題實在太離譜了我們去理解一下對不對已經勞動部的數字調查告訴你你還說沒有"},{"start":6920.1,"end":6933.899,"text":"沒有我的意思是說我們要去找出他的真正核心問題點這個就對了核心問題點到底是在哪裡就我了解上市會公司也都沒有這樣的問題所以我們得把你現在在政府部門做事情"},{"start":6934.929,"end":6941.297,"text":"你有權利做政策的一個決定委員我必須講我不去了解問題的核心在哪裡我解不了問題當然這是你的職責啊我不能用通用性來看待對這是你的職責所以你要去了解為什麼每一年調查出來的資訊是如此"},{"start":6954.918,"end":6978.447,"text":"所以就是問題沒解決啊謝謝委員我說你願意核心去了解我非常的認同你用心多久時間可以告訴我們這個至少要兩個月啦因為我很細節的去看他你好好用心去把他了解原因我們現在能夠在你的任內真的解決這個問題嘛好不好好的好謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":6982.568,"end":6988.252,"text":"謝謝我們現在請陳婷菲委員做詢答陳婷菲委員詢答完休息五分鐘謝謝謝謝張偉浩我們請諸位 柳主委"},{"start":7009.39,"end":7033.431,"text":"主委我想台南的地方創生是一個很重要的計畫因為在我們國發會其實從地方創生原年開始一直到現在我們台南都扮演很重要的角色因為縣市合併之後其實有很多城鄉的一些需求跟城鄉的規劃剛好我們在地方創生可以符合"},{"start":7034.051,"end":7055.336,"text":"所以其实我们拿了很多的案子包括基本上我们目前有提出18个地方创生的计划那已经媒合成功的执行大概有11案那我们目前还在辅导计划当中的是7案那有5案已经开过辅导会"},{"start":7055.816,"end":7077.724,"text":"那現在呢也都在修正當中那麼在繼續輔導的是有兩個案子那基本上其實這是最近在113年到114年剛通過的案子在南溪區玉井區 佐鎮新化隆起這都是比較屬於比較山區的部分"},{"start":7078.644,"end":7106.978,"text":"所以我要說地方創生其實對地方有一個很重要的一個協助就是讓他有一個整合性的一個協助讓他整個往上提升把他的產業跟地方做一個結合把他的特色能夠完完全全的發揮這是我們地方創生的主要意義那當然我們現在包括還在輔導中的有我們的淑女村"},{"start":7108.058,"end":7118.739,"text":"這很夯喔 就是我們的貨幣還有我們的鹽袋在外面購入7個中均價值還有安定 流年大來 生活會贏有7個案"},{"start":7121.401,"end":7145.287,"text":"總共有七個案那這個部分其實我們現在希望這當然還有很多下面的這個資計劃主要計劃是這樣還有資計劃資計劃就是在各個部會來協助所以總共我們預計要爭取就這七個案子爭取6.39億6.39億那我們希望啊"},{"start":7150.014,"end":7171.513,"text":"我們的主委特別給我們關照一下趕快因為早一點通過早一點讓我們上路因為其實我們在講的地方創生完了之後它的關鍵是在下一步就是說當我地方創生做好了之後我的下一步我要怎麼去讓人"},{"start":7173.533,"end":7190.024,"text":"包括所有的年輕的朋友能夠回到這裡然後再帶動觀光這是一步一步的不是說今天地方創生做好了就沒事了沒有這麼好啦地方創生之後他就可以自己生雞蛋嗎不會"},{"start":7191.708,"end":7220.307,"text":"這還是母雞完了之後你要看要怎麼讓他可以繼續往下扎根所以其實我們越早讓我們目前規劃中的地方創生趕快push讓他能夠到位的話早一天我們能夠讓我們的金雞母生金雞蛋這才是我們地方創生的意義所以我們拜託說現在福島中的七個案子包括後壁的淑女村"},{"start":7221.307,"end":7240.419,"text":"鹽地 鹽堤啦齁這就七九重均價率 鹽堤這個所在齁還有安定區 柳營區 大內區 散化區跟下營區這個部分總共有6.39億的這樣的一個預算再拜託主委幫忙 早一天讓我們上路啦"},{"start":7240.839,"end":7245.381,"text":"好 我們會盡力 這總共7案有39項嘛我們會特別輔導 盡量讓這個6.391好 這個很重要啦 因為前面有18個案其實這18個案子有一件還是在我們北區啦這個是長照的特殊性的一個地方創生 結合成大醫院所以其實它有很多不一樣的樣態"},{"start":7265.948,"end":7289.848,"text":"可是做了之後說真的它可以改變的是地方的特色跟地方的產值甚至是地方它所需要的一個量能所以拜託主委這個部分那另外一個就是說我們現在在談的就是我們大南方新矽谷推動方案這個計畫很大非常的大"},{"start":7291.424,"end":7317.083,"text":"極大但是大家都在看到底什麼時候可以達到我們心目中這樣的一個期許跟我們的績效這整個案子都是由國客會在規劃執行的對不對對的那我們現在預計要結合沙崙智慧綠能科學層還有我們半導體的S狼帶也就是從嘉義到屏東這個半導體的S狼帶"},{"start":7320.587,"end":7340.252,"text":"這也是我們重視整個南部經濟發展很重要關鍵的一個大計畫還有重點是要AI為核心產業AI化AI產業化我們的大南方新矽谷的優勢對不對這計畫好大喔主委"},{"start":7343.473,"end":7355.668,"text":"這計畫好大現在我們第一步要先來做我們的整個規劃的就是AI運算資料中心的建置這第一步"},{"start":7357.317,"end":7373.742,"text":"這一個AI運算資料中心的建制總共計畫是51.19億規劃在台南沙崙智慧綠能科學城的部分地上五層 地下兩層 再加上基礎設施計畫是要114年到117年"},{"start":7379.324,"end":7398.543,"text":"沒錯 這個我們已經合訂這個計畫送院了對 已經合訂了 送院了報導行政院那行政院預計什麼時候可以有一個動向這個我們可能 我們再去行政院洽詢一下 再跟您報告"},{"start":7399.654,"end":7419.117,"text":"這個很重要因為我們的計畫期程是114年這個應該因為這總統很關切所以這個速度應該不會太久了對 這很重要因為你今天這個是很重要的地上五層 地下兩層再加上基礎設施還有軟硬體你這個是土建"},{"start":7419.577,"end":7439.031,"text":"而且這是我們最先進的算力中心在那裡沒錯啊AI如果沒有最先進的話基本上我們跟不上世界的潮流啊對不對所以我們很期待這114年到117年今年是關鍵不要第一年就跳票"},{"start":7440.571,"end":7456.645,"text":"好的不要第一年就跳票這個我們大家都在期待好你這個AI運算資料中心你扎根了你才能去推動所謂的我們要去結合S狼帶現在來了我們有一個半導體"},{"start":7458.888,"end":7470.012,"text":"我們半導體這個是當然重點是經濟部啦但是這個know-how還是在我們的國發會重要的審核還是在我們的國發會就是說在整個半導體的推動經濟部提出了也是到117年我想這整個是配合好的啦"},{"start":7477.315,"end":7496.07,"text":"配合好的就是加上整個半導體的S狼帶整個配合好所以我們產值是2.66兆元工作機會要25萬個半導體的材料產值目標材料喔半導體的材料喔他要增加三成528億半導體的設備產值目標是800億"},{"start":7503.235,"end":7529.287,"text":"這個大家眼睛為之一亮大家要看這裡呀其實最近大家都一直在講台積電去美國投資一千億美元其實我們必須說全世界對於我們半導體的需求台積電半導體我們的所謂的基本架構其實它的需求是很高的"},{"start":7530.812,"end":7548.621,"text":"所以在這樣的一個重點我們的know-how沒有改變就是說半導體在我們台積電他沒有把他的技術也就是他自己在原本研發的這個最重要的頭腦他不可能這個頭腦還在台灣"},{"start":7551.368,"end":7577.34,"text":"沒錯對不對這個頭腦還在台灣啊他基本上他要去其他國家去設廠是因為需求因為他要去各地去設廠我們台灣因為大家的整個能量需求能量已經擴展所以他必須到其他國家去設廠這就是這個概念我覺得大家都把它本末倒置了如果說一家公司他沒有去其他國家設廠"},{"start":7579.295,"end":7602.093,"text":"他就表示他沒有辦法去拓展他其他更多的訂單現在訂單的量已經超越了我們自己台灣能夠去cover的部分所以台積電他一定要去國外設廠啊但是他所有的研發都在台灣這是重點啊對主研發都在台灣沒有錯台積電會那麼笨嗎不會吧"},{"start":7606.212,"end":7626.506,"text":"台積電所有的主研發它一定要留在台灣這才是根本所以我覺得現在大家在說我們為什麼要讓台積電去美國去投資是不是有什麼樣的under table的一個所謂我們答應美國的條件"},{"start":7626.986,"end":7638.065,"text":"其實美國還是半導體技術的領先全球最領先的它是技術可是在台積電我們的研發台積電其實現在最厲害的是在它的研發"},{"start":7639.715,"end":7657.367,"text":"對 我們是製造技術最領先的美國是半導體技術最領先的日本是化學材料 半導體材料最領先所以我覺得在這個部分其實我們應該看的為什麼在經濟部他要在五大信賴產業推動方案要再有一個半導體的推動"},{"start":7658.508,"end":7681.304,"text":"這就是關鍵用的需求量絕對不是因為今天台積電有沒有去美國去投資這1000億美元而是在我們整個的需求量已經超出了我們原本的需求所以我們必須做了這個半導體的推動創造更多的產值也就結合我們的S狼帶所以"},{"start":7683.563,"end":7707.858,"text":"主委我們要加油 因為其實我會提出這兩個一個是屬於我們在台南一個我們城鄉結合帶動觀光帶動地方發展的區塊一個是高科技在於產業經濟結合的部分我們怎麼把它做一個大南方結合 南部地方整個大結合做串聯"},{"start":7709.059,"end":7733.742,"text":"對 我們將來的機器人專區也會在台南的北部嘛在台南對 在柳營 新營那個地方就是在我們的西北啊在我們的西北啊對啊 所以我們整個串聯起來其實大南方計畫對於我們的產值是不一樣的所以我們在台南未來的發展是有高科技 有高技能"},{"start":7734.443,"end":7762.422,"text":"有高研發也有精密技術然後我們也有在城鄉結合我們的創生計畫帶動地方的觀光發展帶動地方的產能那是完全不一樣在結合我們的食農教育所以我相信在台南未來是完完全全的大爆發所以我們希望這兩個案子剛好都是國發會拜託主委給我們台南一個更大的未來謝謝"},{"start":7764.707,"end":7765.152,"text":"好谢谢"},{"start":8111.991,"end":8136.959,"text":"我們現在請鄭天才委員做詢答主席 各位有請主委 劉主委這個 言明會在"},{"start":8142.406,"end":8168.78,"text":"提報了這個第三期的四年計畫就是114年到117年原住民族住宅的四年三期計畫當然這個計畫這是過去已經實施延續過去的一個園民會的一個計畫當然更早更早也有更早也有那首先在談這個計畫之前"},{"start":8171.96,"end":8199.928,"text":"要特別跟主委來瞭解也讓這個現在身為國發會過去是經建會在審查這個大家都知道現在有租屋補助嘛租房子有補助現在是內政部在主管 沒錯最早 主委你知道最早是從哪裡開始嗎最早是從延民會開始延租民主委員會開始"},{"start":8202.281,"end":8226.126,"text":"本席當時擔任這個嚴明會的常務副主任委員當時張俊雄院長要求各部會他一上任之後張俊雄第一次當院長的時候他當兩次吧新任院長第一次一上任的時候就請各部會要提出二到三個對人民有感的政策計畫"},{"start":8228.581,"end":8253.206,"text":"人民會當初提出來的其中一個就是租屋補住因為我在都會期長期去了解我們原住民很多的都會期的鄉親因為租不起房子買不起房子所以租房子的時候租一個套房父母親孩子都住在一起"},{"start":8255.785,"end":8281.88,"text":"父母親晚上做看電視小孩子做功課這個一樣只有一個套房啊所以就怎麼樣呢這個小茶几小桌子做功課邊做功課邊看電視對原住民的教育提升非常非常的嚴重的影響所以我就從教育的走眼"},{"start":8283.367,"end":8302.043,"text":"原住民租房子要補助這個計畫送到經建會當時的政務委員當時的副主委就是之前的張景生政務委員他看到這個計畫他很納悶原住民是怎麼一回事租房子還要補助"},{"start":8303.96,"end":8327.678,"text":"經過我們詳細的說明之後他同意他聽進去了就批了主委也批了行政院也合併了實施兩三年之後內政部認為行政院認為這應該要擴大辦理所以才由內政部主管一直實施到現在"},{"start":8328.683,"end":8357.808,"text":"我講這個意思是說原住民的問題不一定跟一般的有關是一樣的但是我們是從各方面的去了解實際的狀況去了解好我們現在談這個四年計畫在談這個四年計畫之前也讓主委了解一下讓我們這個國發會的同仁了解一下我昨天有提了宴會的時候"},{"start":8358.905,"end":8388.14,"text":"在還沒有原住民族基本法在還沒有住宅法之前民國八十一年台灣省政府興建基隆市的海濱原住民國宅總共一億五千多萬當時的一億五千多萬是很大這個就是基隆的原住民海濱國宅民國八十四年內政部省台北縣"},{"start":8390.489,"end":8408.456,"text":"共投入兩億一千多萬新建新店的中正年住民住宅然後汐止八十八年這個汐止的總共有 人民會編列了四億九千多萬當然經費就從住宅計畫裡面四億九千多萬這是買的 直接買買民間的集合式住宅"},{"start":8419.437,"end":8434.74,"text":"是這種的方式,這個是最快的最快的好這個就是現在的狀況那延期法在94年2月5號公布施行"},{"start":8435.874,"end":8464.494,"text":"要測定原住民族住宅政策入會期的安基一定要去重視要有這樣的一個保障跟協助住宅法最重要是住宅法105年12月23號原住民族目的事業主管機關因視原住民族教育及語言文化等傳承發展需要興建興辦專攻原住民成都之社會住宅大家住在一起"},{"start":8465.595,"end":8485.861,"text":"提升教育 提升語言 提升文化在都會區會比較有效因為都會區的原住民人口已經達到51.19%了超過一半如果加上沒有社會戶籍 這個是有社會戶籍的"},{"start":8486.809,"end":8499.329,"text":"加上没有社户籍在都会区就学就业的绝对是超过百分之七十几所以这个人数是相当高那我们看这次的这个"},{"start":8501.264,"end":8523.397,"text":"報告裡面有提到那個四年計畫裡面有提到原住民族家庭的自由住宅率低於全國平均值新北市差距跟全國差距27.83台北市33.44桃園市是25.26台中市差距是31.73所以差距落差很大"},{"start":8525.407,"end":8554.149,"text":"在這個計畫的報告裡面的計畫裡面四年計畫裡面也有提到原住民族專屬社會住宅有幾個地方都有 新北 桃園跟台中都有提報但是呢後來結果內政部說沒有經費人民會也說沒有經費所以這個部分當然這個計畫已經核定但是是從今年開始"},{"start":8565.029,"end":8579.597,"text":"這個計劃是三年計劃第四年計劃是今年開始所以我是建議主委、國發會讓人民會再一次的修正這個計劃滾動檢討修正這個計劃"},{"start":8584.793,"end":8611.169,"text":"能夠列入在明年的預算開始能夠有編列這個專屬原住民的社會住宅來解決這個原住民住宅的需求也符合我們住宅法從105年12月公佈施行之後到現在這樣的一個立法的目的主委可以嗎"},{"start":8612.72,"end":8629.757,"text":"可以喔 我們會後會去反映給原民會那請原民會提案然後到我們這裡來審核的時候我們會協助好 非常謝謝這個主委這個部分因為時間也蠻急迫因為要列入在"},{"start":8631.293,"end":8645.739,"text":"這個明年的預算的話就是對有點對這個時間上但是因為有過去很多很多的經驗所以應該是可以很快的來去做修正核定就麻煩主委好謝謝好謝謝我們現在請鄭正前委員做詢答"},{"start":8663.08,"end":8664.831,"text":"謝謝主席 我想請來劉靜慶劉主委好 劉主委"},{"start":8676.248,"end":8696.137,"text":"因為國家發展計畫每四年都會推一次從您上來之後 您去年8月推出一個新的版本就是114年到117年的一個國家計畫我發現你這裡面用了一個比較特別的字眼你講到一個後全球化的新冷戰時代"},{"start":8697.778,"end":8711.951,"text":"那我想問一下就從主委的角度來看的時候全球化的示威大概在什麼時候那碰到這個新冷戰時代的時候台灣應該要怎麼做才能夠跟上這樣的腳步全球化開始"},{"start":8713.607,"end":8736.389,"text":"受到比較大的挑戰事實上從2017年就開始逐步到了疫情期間各國也紛紛發現他必須擁有自己比較安全的供應鏈去穩固自己國家的安全所以呢以美國為首開始推動這個法案14017的法案去進行這個安全供應鏈的推動"},{"start":8736.909,"end":8753.061,"text":"那這個熱性供應鏈的推動其實在各個國家都有類似的現象開始發生所以你在這邊講到全球化是你覺得是從COVID-19之後的時候開始做一些調整你定義是這樣子啦OK那這沒問題喔而且從美中貿易開始在2017開始從美中貿易這個部分就出現了"},{"start":8755.222,"end":8781.072,"text":"OK那我在想說針對這個部分因為你特別提到了一個針對大陸的一個和平崛起大家覺得夢想幻滅那你這邊是不是有特別的訊息覺得說會進入到一個武力崛起的一個過程還是一個對兩岸的衝突你這邊是不是有特別的一個訊息我這邊倒是我們比較從經濟的角度去看整個產業的發展到比較沒有從"},{"start":8782.116,"end":8792.935,"text":"所以如果從經濟的角度來看的時候那怎麼會因為經濟就是一個和平崛起的一個動作為什麼會覺得經濟的角度來看的時候你們也不覺得說它是一個和平崛起的過程"},{"start":8794.759,"end":8814.945,"text":"你如果以從中國經濟過去而言他他也是一個和平的崛起他並沒有沒有任何的軍事的崛起那如果是這個部分的時候面臨的壓力應該是說在高高速發展之後所產生的一些效應包括全球化造成他的產業也開始在外移嗎"},{"start":8816.066,"end":8830.562,"text":"所以基本上因為是整個產業化的外移或者他們你基本上因為他是經濟上的崛起你覺得他其實還是一個和平崛起的一個過程啦是不是對他是和平的但他遇到兩個問題第一個成本變高了第二個事情是2017開始美國關稅之後他的產業開始進行外移"},{"start":8834.046,"end":8862.097,"text":"對 可是成本變高跟產業壞壞基本上都還是一個和平的動作因為我只是針對這部分有一個定義上的一個聊因為本來想說你這邊也許會有一些國發會也許會有一些特別的一個訊息會覺得更敏感覺得說兩岸搞不好會有一些爭端或者是怎麼樣子那如果沒有的時候我就進入下面一個部分因為在109年就是蔡總統第二屆任期她提出一個六大核心戰略那去年的時候我們提出五大信賴產業那麼今天你在"},{"start":8862.817,"end":8890.327,"text":"又報告到你也把這個五大信貸產業當作一個很重要的部分在第一段就特別去講那我就很認真的去看了一個六大核心戰略跟五大信貸產業當中的一個差別那五大信貸產業當中包括半導體、AI、軍工、安控跟世代通訊這些部分的時候呢大概在六大核心戰略產業當中大概可以用字當然不一樣可是用字基本上來說大概就是在整個資訊及數位、國防及戰略還有"},{"start":8892.167,"end":8915.625,"text":"資産卓越這三個部分大概就涵蓋了就是五大信貸產業所以我比較好奇的是在六大核心戰略當中的時候呢台灣精準醫療民生及戰備還有綠電及再生能源的部分就在整個五大信貸產業當中其實感覺是消失的那對於這個部分的時候主委這邊有沒有什麼要特別補充覺得說這樣的一個調整主要是在哪裡"},{"start":8917.509,"end":8944.875,"text":"基本上我們目前我們的看法是這樣六大核心戰略是要必須被延續的那五大信任產業是在這個延續的過程中我們要更大強化的區域那所以舉個例子在精準醫療的部分現在總統在推動健康台灣那他就有更大的包容性在這裡面所以他基本上他本身是一個持續性的政策推動"},{"start":8945.775,"end":8960.083,"text":"所以你認為六大核心災害還是整個持續的只是這個當中的時候把五個產業當中特別挑出來去做重點的一個強化是這個意思嗎因為我們必須建立於過去的基礎上繼續發展"},{"start":8961.745,"end":8976.878,"text":"那我想問一下針對那個目前其實在整個費用產業鏈當中的時候其實我們知道無人機大聯盟在台灣開始也非常的蓬勃針對這個部分的時候我們是不是有特別的一個政策傾斜要如何去做這無人機大聯盟"},{"start":8977.959,"end":8992.59,"text":"無人機的部分是我們現在是委由這個經濟部在主導成立了一個大聯盟那也成立了嘉義的無人機專區也有一些研究基地那我們現在從國科會也開始在輔導資助這個關鍵晶片的研發所以我們從整個晶片到它的陀螺儀也好到這個雲台也好整個"},{"start":9005.559,"end":9024.836,"text":"整個產業鏈我們都做了一個精密的分析因為無人機它真的很特殊因為目前也許台灣在發展的是一個商用無人機可是因為商用無人機跟軍用無人機來說坦白說在一線之隔那我在想說這個部分的時候我想無人機其實某一個部分其實是台灣有條件去發展"},{"start":9025.757,"end":9042.485,"text":"所以本席對這個部分其實也有一些相當的一個期待因為我覺得這個部分對台灣來說不管是從經濟角度或從安全的角度來看都會有一些注意所以我們希望這部分能夠特別的去加強好 謝謝那接下來是我想問一下其實因為就是"},{"start":9044.585,"end":9059.691,"text":"國發會這邊影響了很多跨單位的一個政策那107年的時候國發會出面主導的時候經濟部就公告了一個企業級法人申請外國級學生來中華民國實習要點那這個實習要點當中的時候呢目前來看它就是"},{"start":9061.659,"end":9090.147,"text":"國外學生到台灣來實習那用的是停留簽證可以停留六個月六個月之後要再出去一次再進來六個月目前的機制是不是這樣子主委就我了解的是是這樣子我們也有接到業者的澄清跟反應我們也把這個意見反映到這個經濟部希望這個部分能夠有一些考慮目前我想他們還在政府的意見之間的整合"},{"start":9091.107,"end":9104.377,"text":"所以國發會這邊已經有把這個意見就是轉給了經濟部對不對因為時間太短尤其是李學業反映的比較多所以我們就把這個反映意見也給到了"},{"start":9105.216,"end":9130.125,"text":"OK那因為那個旅館業其實從今年今年可以改成兩年了旅屬業已經開放對旅館業已經改成兩年了對這個就是我要問的接下來的點因為旅館業改成兩年非旅館業的部分都還是六個月而且他們用的簽證也都不一樣所以來台灣實習的學生手上做的對待也都不一樣所以本席在這邊是希望說能夠一體試用"},{"start":9131.685,"end":9149.635,"text":"也許都能夠比照旅宿業都讓他們來的時間長一點讓他們學習能夠完整一點然後針對這個部分您剛剛說您已經轉交給經濟部指的就是這個部分是不是我之前反映的是旅宿業我想您這邊有其他行業的話我也會"},{"start":9150.855,"end":9159.059,"text":"會後未會遭我們希望所有的產業先能夠一體化不要一國兩制同樣一個外國學生到台灣來實習的狀態還有兩種不同的標準兩種的被對待的方式"},{"start":9164.07,"end":9181.559,"text":"好那接下來的時候我再請教一個部分就是我問一個N-1的部分剛剛很多委員都特別提到我想問一下主委N-1的部分我們的法源依據是來自於哪裡你知道嗎"},{"start":9183.161,"end":9196.371,"text":"恩檢醫主要就我了解原來只是對中國的部分但是這個在審核技術上面因為我們從國家安全的角度我們會在這個將來在這個投審的部分我們也會特別關注這個領域"},{"start":9198.219,"end":9218.81,"text":"因為你剛剛提到一個點就是因為N-1的原則其實在大陸地區投資晶圓鑄造廠相關的部分的一個要點當中的一個部分因為N-1的法源依據在這裡那我們現在如果說要一體試用的時候那我在想說也許我們在法規面的部分也許要盡量讓它更完善一點"},{"start":9219.71,"end":9231.118,"text":"好不好 好的那原來是可以引用國家安全但是我想委員的建議也很有道理我會找經濟部我們針對這一點來來做強化OK好謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝委員請謝依鳳召委質詢"},{"start":9251.461,"end":9253.434,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我想要請劉主委請劉主委"},{"start":9262.464,"end":9291.073,"text":"早安主委我想要請問一下其實在昨天有一個非常重大的消息就是美國的財政部長貝森特他說4月2號的時候那各國都會收到一個關稅編號那這個關稅編號就代表了各國要進口到美國商品的這個關稅水準"},{"start":9292.881,"end":9313.407,"text":"我想要請問主委的是我們到底有沒有跟美國預先有做任何的談判然後已經了解了這個關稅編號的內容以及我們即將要面對到的這樣子的一個關稅水準"},{"start":9315.54,"end":9343.022,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個負責處理的不在我這個層級但是就我的了解我們一直有持續的溝通那另外一個事情是說我們也有也有這個相關部會也在釐定這個萬一的因應措施那所以會在如果因為現在不知道結果是什麼所以等到有結果會有一些一系列的措施出現"},{"start":9343.783,"end":9368.569,"text":"所以目前我們還不了解這關稅編號的內容我們目前是有劇本然後有在溝通就是有一些我們演練的那個情境但是我們沒有辦法完全的掌握美國那邊也還沒有完全的確認嗎是不是應該是各國都在溝通但是各國都在準備劇本"},{"start":9369.71,"end":9397.776,"text":"所以各國都還不知道就是說他們所要面臨的這個問題是多少因為他是整個統籌在商務部到4月2號他才會正式的公佈因為他還會往上層到白宮嘛因為我們看到了其實現在就是他開針的這個對象裡面像加拿大墨西哥都是美國最第一第二名的這樣子前三名的這個進口國那我們是我們是第八名"},{"start":9399.116,"end":9426.508,"text":"對是不是我們第八名但是對我們已經這邊有課徵到的是那個鋼鐵鋁的關稅對那如果未來他如果課徵對等關稅的時候我們台灣對有哪一些就是美國進口的產品那要課徵進口稅那如果我們未來出口到美國的產品有哪一些會被美國課稅"},{"start":9428.346,"end":9454.36,"text":"你的情境裡面按照美國的說法他有對等關稅的概念那其實稅則拿出來大概就可以看到了那我現在是有比較高層在負責這個部分的規劃我大概沒有辦法來回答這個問題那這個規劃是有在進行中是我們副院長現在領導這個所以有多少進口關稅會被課對等關稅"},{"start":9457.199,"end":9459.064,"text":"我們是相較是少的了"},{"start":9460.868,"end":9486.22,"text":"它只有兩個原則一個就是降稅一個就是提稅只有兩個可能所以變因都存在但是因為每一個耗折都會不一樣舉個例子鋼鐵鋁增25%的稅因為台灣原來就是25%其實幾乎是沒有影響反而我們的競爭對手反而稅負提高了所以還是要看每一個不同產品的狀態有些產業我個人也去問過了"},{"start":9489.542,"end":9514.14,"text":"那有些產業像有些產業他認為如果全球一起爭他的競爭力不會改變那最主要一個點我也跟委員說明台灣一般來講這種貿易的交易都是採用FOB的報價就是離岸價格然後由進口商負責報稅報關稅然後付關稅進口所以在2017川普那一波的時候多數的稅金是由美國廠商"},{"start":9514.921,"end":9535.992,"text":"自行吸收但是也有部分廠商也有部分廠商他們覺得吸收不了就要求台灣的廠商搭配但是那要看每個廠商的bug and power那bug and power強的廠商是是就在上一波來講是沒有付關稅那有一些就會協助負擔這是它是一個協商的結果所以它整個的變動還是要看產業各個產業的情境"},{"start":9538.988,"end":9556.947,"text":"那但是因為因應這一波的這個關稅上漲調漲那也會造成了美國的這個物價上漲那美國物價上漲本來跟台灣是沒有相關性的但是如果我們有相關的產品出口到美國的時候那如果"},{"start":9558.108,"end":9582.482,"text":"在美國的廠商不下定那有可能他們預期就是說物價上漲導致於他們的銷量不好的情況下對於我們就會影響到我們國內的這樣子的製造業者那這一波就是大家非常擔心的也就是未來這個關稅的這個調整會不會影響到我們的出口的那個量"},{"start":9585.831,"end":9601.788,"text":"這個以2017、2018那個時候來看它的影響並沒有那麼大但這一波就比較要小心了因為這一波在原來2017、2018並沒有COVID-19造成的通膨跟戰爭造成通膨的因素但這一波是有"},{"start":9602.328,"end":9627.53,"text":"所以其實我們一直有在密切看每個月的美國零售指數跟這個就業的狀態以及它的整個CPI的變動其實大家都在Watch我們現在幾乎是定期都在查這個數字這個數字會推估出來未來您講的您提到這些情形存不存在因為我為什麼會跟你說因為我已經有一些中小企業傳產業者跟我說了"},{"start":9627.99,"end":9651.069,"text":"他們已經就是他們的訂單都縮減了那在這個情況下如果就是美國的消費的情況數字不清楚的情況下就會影響到台灣的相關的產業那如果這樣子的時候我們要如何因應那怎麼樣子協助台灣的產業度過這個我認為這也是非常重大的問題這個大概實際要等那個"},{"start":9654.33,"end":9676.396,"text":"這個負責單位提出來了那我大概這邊講一下我們大概有幾個方向第一個就是出口的部分我們怎麼去降低成本包括在運費包括在保險這些地方那另外在稅賦上面或是其他地方也沒有什麼可以補助的部分我們大概會依據產業別會有一些因應的措施那等到出來以後我們就會依據那個狀況拿出我們的劇本"},{"start":9677.196,"end":9692.99,"text":"我們希望說行政部門真的要嚴加以待畢竟這個問題是非常嚴重的會影響到國內的這些傳產的業者那當然半導體也不用說了現在大家就在談半導體的問題嘛是不是那還有"},{"start":9694.591,"end":9718.309,"text":"那AI就是你這個就是你阻折了就是說我們AI我們說的是說到2028年我們AI的人才缺口會到達35萬人這是你們估計的那所以你有提出三個解方就是說高教人才產學共育還有延染外國人才這三方面那未來你如何"},{"start":9719.656,"end":9747.332,"text":"就是這三個部分你做的如何而且你在2025的階段性目標你能夠解決多少的AI人才的缺口我們目前有幾個在做的第一個是從校園校園我們推STAND的計畫就是讓一些非資訊科系的人可以去上資訊科系的課程那我們在去年這個部分已經達到了9萬多人了那第二個事情是我們從校外"},{"start":9748.873,"end":9764.046,"text":"輔導這個非資訊科技的在參加像從速發部這個經濟部輔導的民間包括甚至貢源院那國科會輔導的民間然後包括勞動部都有提供相關的畢業生的一些職業訓練"},{"start":9765.347,"end":9792.248,"text":"那這個訓練也會增加人數我們上次估了一下我們可以一年可以有大概12萬這樣的人數那另外一部分我們現在也會也會有橋外生的部分也會加入到這個領域來那另外我們最近如果我們的這個懶財專法這個公告之後我們也希望這個送去院來如果能過的話我們也希望利用這個懶財專法再吸引更多的人進來那你預計懶財專法可以吸引多少人"},{"start":9793.292,"end":9813.478,"text":"懶人尊法我們現在分兩階段第一個我們這邊做的是法令開放讓業者更容易進來那唯一比較能夠吸引到的會是稅賦的部分那稅賦的部分我們最近也會在利用那個時間去跟財政部去做溝通我們希望在稅賦上面能夠參考新加坡為標準來吸引"},{"start":9815.919,"end":9827.053,"text":"那這樣的話就會讓我們的說服我們目前是這樣他的年薪超過300萬以上的部分我們給他打對折五年那我們希望把這個標準再往下降讓更多的人才肯進來"},{"start":9827.884,"end":9852.311,"text":"那雙重課稅呢?雙重課稅的部分雙重課稅是國與國之間那要看我們跟那些國家啦那目前我們比較有在進行中的是那個美國的部分那美國的部分在上一個會期是在眾議院那現在要等參議院那參議院現在是之前在拜登的時候在眾議院現在要等參議院的結果"},{"start":9853.168,"end":9880.67,"text":"那還有就是說我們根據就是Google Cloud跟那個人工智慧科技基金會的那個發布的報告裡面說明其實台灣的企業當中有69.3%的多數員工對於AI的知識了解都非常的都偏低那這個部分怎麼樣協調各部會因為如果我們對於AI的知識了解的偏低的情況下未來要推動整個AI的整體發展"},{"start":9881.598,"end":9891.009,"text":"以及我們國家的就是AI產業的相關的競爭力的時候評比各方面就會相當的低那這個部分我們要怎麼加強"},{"start":9892.636,"end":9912.92,"text":"對 這個部分應該我會找這個速發部來討論我們怎麼去協助兩個部分一個是企業資訊的部分一個是我們怎麼去提供更多的資資庫讓企業在訓練上面可以引用這些資資庫的教師來幫忙那另外我們也會試著在"},{"start":9915.661,"end":9928.896,"text":"這個上市櫃協會這邊去這個公司相關的公司這邊去推動這樣的一個實質指導庫那另外就是我們現在有政府政府提供的一些教育訓練我們會更加的宣導去讓這個產業能夠派人來參加這樣的訓練好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":9947.678,"end":9948.659,"text":"現在請呂玉琳委員做詢答謝謝主席 請劉主委"},{"start":9969.409,"end":9987.917,"text":"各位在2月份國發會有公布了1月份的景氣的燈號中和整個判斷的話是34分比去年的12月份的38分是掉了4分但是我們從去年看到的整個台灣經濟的狀況是逐步復甦的情形那這個也擺脫了前幾年藍燈低迷"},{"start":9995.56,"end":10016.152,"text":"據我們國發會的說法是因為整個經濟的動能就是受到AIAI這個產業新興科技整個的發展所帶動起來讓我們出口有更進一步的增加讓國外的很多大廠都到台灣來投資也讓我們的民眾可以支配整個我們國內內需的整個市場的活絡對不對是的"},{"start":10020.194,"end":10028.88,"text":"那本席也特別跟我們的國貿署有調了一份資料我們看到了就是2023年我們整個對於出口總值是4324億2905萬元那2024年的話是4750億284億元整個產值也多了這個將近有426億的美元那看到的話這就是"},{"start":10048.013,"end":10052.616,"text":"目前來講的話就是川普他上任之後的話他說要重回這個貿易這個"},{"start":10056.554,"end":10079.651,"text":"這樣保護的這個措施所以要對各國課以這個關稅那我們也看到了他對於這個大陸的關稅要全面的話要增加了20%而對鋼鐵還有就是鋁的部分的話要25%那我們看到他有預告了4月份都對所有的國家都會這個這個對等的這個關稅都會來增加在這個部分來"},{"start":10084.955,"end":10112.944,"text":"各國也對這個這個美國會有一些的比例的這個課稅的方面都會相對的因應那我請問諸位那目前來講的話我們的關稅施行細則還沒有公布那對於美國對我們的這個出口也是第二大這個市場那請問這個諸位那會不會影響我們下半年裡的出口率出口會下降出口總值會下降情形"},{"start":10115.695,"end":10133.77,"text":"這個部分其實我們是兩件事在做一個是持續溝通第二個我們做一些因應那我舉個例子其實美國整個策略他還是希望在美國製造所以川普講了很多次了就是在美國製造會比較便宜如果課稅的話"},{"start":10135.091,"end":10162.572,"text":"那所以呢我們現在因應比較比較目前機會比較大的像以譬如說半導體好了我大概跟業者我們談了三次那業者是認為呢有些業者他在美國有工廠他會從美國出貨那有些業者呢他認為呢只要是全球一起科稅那他們的競爭條件是一致的所以他們覺得主委那這樣子的話美國可不可能對我們國內的有哪些產業他會加徵這個關稅"},{"start":10167.286,"end":10187.24,"text":"目前我們看到機會最大的是半導體因為它是從稅務平等來看只要我們的平均稅率高於它的那個產業就會有可能要嘛我們降稅要嘛就整稅所以國發會那你對這些產業你要如何協助跟各部會的話怎麼嚴厲因應的方案呢"},{"start":10187.82,"end":10198.812,"text":"對 我們現在是這樣子因為它產業別的狀態是不一樣的我想委員應該前面有提到我們美國對於這個鋼鐵鋁去課徵25%的關稅那譬如說它全球課25%關稅的時候對台灣是沒有影響的因為台灣本來就課25%"},{"start":10206.72,"end":10224.866,"text":"反而對韓國中國這些稅負比較低的受到影響所以他不同的產業會有不同的因應的策略所以你要跟各部會做好研擬的方案有現在是現在是我們副院長在領導大家在做這樣的一個規劃坦白講我們最近也會在"},{"start":10225.886,"end":10249.054,"text":"我們幾乎每個禮拜都開會可是主委你要知道如果整個出口的產值都萎縮的話也會影響國內整個產業搞不好我們的燈號又回到藍燈了是不是我們其實這個部分我們是一直在觀測美國內部的銷售數據跟就業的狀態還有它的CPI跟PPI所以國防會你有沒有做這個先前的評估嗎"},{"start":10249.534,"end":10271.398,"text":"我們現在是很頻繁的在看它只要數字出來我們就有在看它的數字的變動我們希望整個景氣能夠維持現在的狀況然後讓產業變得比較穩定但是如果我們從AI的角度來看它可能整體的需求我們目前評估AI的需求是比較不容易下降的"},{"start":10271.778,"end":10280.682,"text":"可是你現在看到加拿大或者是歐盟國家他對於他這個課稅這關稅的部分的話他們有採取這個相對應的方式就是報復性的課稅那你對這個看法呢我們台灣的話有沒有那個底氣有沒有那個魄力或者是我們能夠也有相對應的這個方案出來"},{"start":10294.134,"end":10303.061,"text":"因為我們是高貿易依存度的國家所以我們還是會主張要跟世界各國維持友好的關係人家看我們課稅"},{"start":10304.929,"end":10311.315,"text":"科稅這個也不是第一次在2017、2018都有所以我們一直在溝通我們看看4月2號溝通的結果那個時候再來去我們的因應措施目前有一些包括我們怎麼去協助因為我們國防會都很樂觀外銷成本"},{"start":10327.19,"end":10335.974,"text":"你們很樂觀說現在我們的整個經濟的成長你們也定到3%如果這個情形一再發生下去的話這經濟成長你就要下修了嘛不一定喔因為這還是一個全球競爭的企業是一個競爭的狀態喔我舉個例子喔全球經濟如果0成長他去年呢跟我們買100億的東西今年還是會買100億那如果我們從別人別的國家手上拿回一些市場市佔率我們還有可能從100億拉到110億"},{"start":10356.542,"end":10368.675,"text":"可是你這個關稅會影響讓所有的產品的成本都會提高提高之後的話我們整個全球的話就會有通膨的情形發生如果大家都一起漲價本身就是大家會在同一個競爭基礎上那現在是怎麼樣去驅動消費端"},{"start":10372.039,"end":10379.986,"text":"主委是很樂觀啦但是你不要忽略了這整個對產業國內國外的產業都有很大的衝擊喔我們為了保護自己的話我們應該跟各部會趕快嚴寧方案出來這還是重要的好不好好 那本席想再加再來問我們主委一個狀況齁那因為台積電先問主委好了台積電的股票你有買嗎"},{"start":10397.796,"end":10405.701,"text":"我沒有買你沒有買那你有沒有關心台積電的股票現在的情形因為我是問我們當然關心因為我們是他的大股東對就是因為國發會我們是大股東所以目前的股價一直下跌而在這種情形之下又美國這邊有預告說未來我們半導體可能課稅要到百分之八百分之二十五那在這種情況之下的話我們國人對於整個台積電"},{"start":10427.454,"end":10444.787,"text":"這個未來的發展是不太樂觀也存在很大的疑慮尤其是說現在我們整個台積電到美國是來投資了將近1650億的這個美元那未來會再增加投資也是未來確定性的事情"},{"start":10445.507,"end":10465.44,"text":"但是我們擔心的就是說我們的整個研發會不會移到美國去美國也說他們在那邊台積電會做研發中心會在那裡設置在那裡設置之後的話我們人才剛剛主委特別提到說還是台灣的人才最重要整個先進的研發製程的話都會在台灣研發半年到兩年的時間"},{"start":10469.663,"end":10484.777,"text":"之後才會拿到美國去就做個製程出來但是我們擔心的是研發中心如果美國設置下去的話他們研發的速度如果比我們快更先進的話那是不是整個技術都會整個被美國控制過去了"},{"start":10486.77,"end":10502.583,"text":"這個所有的技術一定產權屬於台積電所有所以其實台灣有很多公司在矽谷都是有研發中心不瞞您說包括台積電也有因為美國在某些領域還是有頂尖的領先技術整個半導體是從美國發過來的"},{"start":10504.585,"end":10531.682,"text":"所以每一個公司在海外設的研發中心所取得的研究成果還是屬於這家公司的知識產權所以它還是會有營業秘密的保障所以技術還是有一定的保障但是主委你要知道台積電過去之後它底下上下游的產業鏈因為成本因為關稅的問題他們也都會外移到美國在外移的情況之下我們要如何鞏固在我們台灣整個產業的發展這個不是外移是擴大台灣的市場"},{"start":10532.603,"end":10553.639,"text":"因為我們台灣本土的市場並不夠大那如果我們能走到世界的市場會讓台灣的產業更加多所以國發會更要具體的整個政策的一個作為才能讓我們國人對台積電這個護國神山更加有信心 是不是你們拿出你們的政策出來好不好我們是有的 謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":10561.667,"end":10581.885,"text":"我們現在請邱志偉委員做詢答謝謝主席 有請國化會主委 劉主委"},{"start":10592.753,"end":10611.14,"text":"幾個問題請教台積電初步在美國的投資是一千億美金這個數字川普總統是說一千六到底最後投資的數字是多少原來投資的六百五十億然後再加碼一千億"},{"start":10612.365,"end":10624.518,"text":"所以加上原來的然後這個再新公佈了1000,所以加起來就是1650億是的後面還沒有第二次的或者第三次的要求目前就我"},{"start":10625.782,"end":10646.157,"text":"得到的訊息是不會 目前是沒有對 我聽起來川普是蠻滿意的他說史上最大的投資之一啦所以短期內不太應當我判斷不會再有第二次 第三次的要求了那我覺得這個所謂護國神山神這個意思是什麼意思神這個意思是永生不滅這樣都沒辦法啦那神的地位啊 怎麼樣都不會被改變"},{"start":10653.373,"end":10672.619,"text":"但是我們不能do nothing要do something所以國際基金作為這個台積電的大股東之一當然把先進製程把核心技術留在台灣這是最基本的對不對所以研發中心也要在台灣這個也是魏董事長的承諾"},{"start":10674.805,"end":10695.823,"text":"他這個必須要跟流台灣所以這種情況之下這包括他的這個先進製程包括先進封測先進封裝這個部分他們都應當會留在台灣最近這個南方的大南方新矽谷的計畫大概是國安會在主導"},{"start":10697.121,"end":10714.668,"text":"還是經濟部是國科會 我們協助國科會主導但是你們做一個整合我們做整體大規劃所以大南方新矽谷要從這個台南甚至乎嘉義到高雄到屏東那核心就是在沙崙台南沙崙跟高雄的鹿竹鹿竹橋頭兩個地方所以橋頭這個"},{"start":10717.749,"end":10742.919,"text":"科學園區您去過嗎?我沒有去過有空去看一下,我可以導覽因為我每天都在尋那個科學園區旁邊有一個白浦產業園區白浦產業園區在哪裡?在橋頭跟岡山的交界離兩個交流道,還有兩個交流道我先爭取一個第二交流道有兩個交流道交通方便,又捷運通過"},{"start":10744.487,"end":10764.619,"text":"又大概有80公頃的這個基地用水沒有問題 還有兩座再生水廠 也是我爭取的用電也沒有問題 興達火力 興達這個發電廠所以這個最好的區位 我覺得啊先進封裝這部分啊 是不是可以設在這個百五產業園區"},{"start":10766.565,"end":10789.363,"text":"這需要 這我可以待會反映因為這個市場的需求是非常巨大因為你是大股東嘛大股東覺得這個未來公司的營運你們也可以表示意見嘛所以我是期待說這個是不是可以請這個主委你這個以大股東的身分是不是跟台積電能夠建議或者您可以去看一下看我說的是不是真的因為詳細的這個計畫已經準備很久了"},{"start":10796.293,"end":10805.051,"text":"這等國安會推吧再等這個台積電來拍板我們定期有這樣的會議那個才會真正落實大南方新矽谷的計畫"},{"start":10808.33,"end":10829.367,"text":"這個主委這件事情再有勞您了這個也跟委員報告這是由國科會在主導我們定期我是看到您是大股東的這個對我跟您報告一下我們定期跟台積電有會議去協助台積電那務必傳達我的想法這個生產的需求務必傳達高雄市政府的意願我會在這個會議提出來務必傳達大南方矽谷"},{"start":10830.007,"end":10843.684,"text":"这个所谓高雄市民的这个共同的心声没问题的因为相关的主管都会在那个会议出现我会在那个会议提出来第二个问题请教这个新达海洋科学园区有位企业家"},{"start":10845.092,"end":10863.628,"text":"鴻基的創辦人對這個區位他覺得非常好評估也非常好新達海洋科學園區目前有一定的基礎以前是一個要試圖做遠洋漁港後來沒有成功現在變成一個捕撈的漁港"},{"start":10865.236,"end":10885.549,"text":"那如果有海洋科學園區的進駐在現有的規模之下我覺得發展會比其他區域會更好我也期待主委你可以去下山看一下這個施政榮先生有跟我提過一次因為我最了解我這十幾年"},{"start":10886.79,"end":10897.401,"text":"十幾年我在新大怎麼樣讓新大海洋科學園區啊能夠成型我們現在有一定的基礎他非常看好金屬中心包括能源署他的山中心都在那邊然後這個船舶的設計也在那邊"},{"start":10903.587,"end":10931.493,"text":"所以已經有過去還有這個新達海基還有離岸風電所以這個部分負力也夠但是需要這個中央大力的支持所以有機會我也會跟總統來反映或跟行政院長來反映所以國安會扮演一個這個整合者角度他的交通運輸啊他交通運輸他你知道協定嗎我知道"},{"start":10932.463,"end":10958.565,"text":"相對的交通的效率沒那麼好但是我們決定紅線開到湖內大概也要六七年園區的開發怎麼樣做整體性的開發產業政策要怎麼配合法規要怎麼配合怎麼跟民間的企業包括施政榮先生的紅基金公司來合作我覺得要有一個平台國安會辦理這個平台最好"},{"start":10959.696,"end":10975.624,"text":"是不是可以請國安會召集相關單位也召集這個私部門這些民間企業來共同怎麼催生來達成新達海洋科學園區的建置做一個平台 開一次會議"},{"start":10977.184,"end":10997.936,"text":"這個是在大南方新矽谷的範疇內我們會找國科會一起來努力達成一個月之內把這個會議把它召開就由國安會來做一個統籌因為國家的重大建設需要國安會來做一個統合的角色而且你又是政委"},{"start":11000.066,"end":11020.974,"text":"你又雙城市委 你又是政委 政委就負責協調嘛所以我期待 我在這邊拜託這個主委是不是由國發會來組織一個月之內召開跨部會協調會議怎麼樣把這個藍圖 把這個路徑都把它這個演繹出來我這邊 我會找國科會我們一起來規劃一下看看"},{"start":11022.922,"end":11042.289,"text":"這個怎麼樣去實現委員交代的事這是一個月之內我拜託你好不好這個國家的產業政策要落實這件事要跟時間賽跑我也很急啊好的那第三個問題就是說這個產業失衡那這個我選區都是傳產鋼鐵啦扣件甚至有石化那傳產"},{"start":11045.395,"end":11069.283,"text":"這幾年跟半導體比較起來 半導體把台灣的股票市場支撐起來但傳產的 比如說台塑 台塑世保 它的股價都腰斬在腰斬不只是這樣 它指標型的企業都是這樣子 那何況其他的中小型的比如說金屬扣件 我聽到人聲音說 政府好像把資源都放在半導體"},{"start":11070.677,"end":11094.101,"text":"但是他們可能不了解我們政府也對傳統產業重視但我要提醒主委是說這個傳產的混進是發生在中南部中南部啊這個他們的心聲就是共同心聲說大家好像沒有一個有效的對策來針對這個傳統產業傳統產業分別有很多傳統的製造業 傳統的服務業"},{"start":11100.616,"end":11124.726,"text":"我也跟行政院長也討論過這部分需要有一個很完整的如何提振傳統產業要一個完整的計畫我知道行政院有但是要怎麼去落實這個才是最重要的所以這個主委你覺得傳統產業要怎麼樣面對這些危機那政府該做哪些事情提供哪些協助"},{"start":11126.329,"end":11143.596,"text":"這個我跟這個我會找經濟部我覺得委員的意見也很好我們看看能不能協助經濟部我們進行這個跨部會整合的來討論這件事情那我也會盡快給您一個報告林森想兩次通常不會讓林森想兩次"},{"start":11146.302,"end":11155.845,"text":"這個問題太重要了 希望主委我提了請教您幾個問題 希望主委能夠有立即性的這個我會來處理謝謝主席好 謝謝我們現在請王洪威委員做詢答謝謝主席 我請劉主委劉主委"},{"start":11177.747,"end":11198.901,"text":"主委您身為台積電的董事法就是政府的法人代表你在2月份有去美國參加台積電的董事會那請問一下當天的董事會裡面有沒有討論台積電要擴大美國投資再增加投資1000億美元的提案"},{"start":11201.465,"end":11224.534,"text":"有或沒有委員是這樣子喔因為我是台積電董事齁我依法要遵守董事會的會議內容的秘密啦不過你是法你是政府法人代表請你能體諒那我可以用國安會的角度來看看台積電我沒辦法用董事的角度來評論台積電否則會影響到我現在得到的訊息是當天其實並沒有就是投資一千億美元的提案"},{"start":11227.013,"end":11251.335,"text":"這個因為他是董事會的這個公司治理跟這個營業秘密好現在講公司治理請問一下身為董事您什麼時候知道台積電有投資美國一千億美元擴大的這個我可以跟你肯定講這件事情的話如果是什麼時候的話我是比大家早知道"},{"start":11252.337,"end":11269.324,"text":"所以你在3月3號白宮記者會之前知道嗎?是的那你是在董事會的時候知道嗎?我是跟我們上層的整個政府同時都知道的"},{"start":11269.943,"end":11286.348,"text":"好所以你並不是在董事會裡面知道因為你剛才提到你剛才提到公司治理因為確實台積電其實它過去是一家公司治理非常良好的公司但是在這個案子裡面其實為什麼我會要今天要問這個問題因為"},{"start":11289.469,"end":11315.017,"text":"非常關心台積電投資的就是他們得到的資料很確切在美國的那場董事會特別到美國去召開董事會但是並沒有這個提案而且呢也沒有任何的重大訊息的公告所以擔心這樣的一個投資的這樣的一個程序是不是有違反公私自理的原則那麼"},{"start":11316.671,"end":11333.977,"text":"我先跟委員報告一般來講公司的正統做法他會在董事會取得一個概要授權不是細節授權那概要授權之後呢當他確定之後他會提出一個完整的計畫經過董事會的核定那董事會核定之後呢他才會"},{"start":11335.738,"end":11349.513,"text":"但是如果在董事會裡都沒有討論但是就直接的宣布這也就是我們外界所講的因為我們的政府一直說台積電的投資是沒有外力的"},{"start":11350.194,"end":11368.292,"text":"那麼如果這個是一個正常的公司的重大投資他照理說應該在董事會裡面先行討論然後對外宣布這是不是應該正常的公司治理的程序但是如果違反這樣的程序難道"},{"start":11369.593,"end":11395.274,"text":"難怪外界會認為這有所謂的外力的介入是不是委員我剛剛只是跟您報告我沒辦法去表達董事會的內容但是我並沒有說因為主委你作為政府法人代表這個其實不應該再隱瞞而且這個事情已經是公布它如果還沒有公布你是基於公司治理你不能夠先行公布"},{"start":11396.115,"end":11421.454,"text":"公司沒有做重訓的公布你怎麼可以公布 可是這已經公布了那麼久了那另外我再確定一下因為後來川普接受媒體的訪問突然說這個台積電會有2000億美元的投資所以大家非常的驚恐因為剛才你也回答1000億美元是白宮宣布的650億美元事實上是在拜登政府時候宣布的所以加起來1650億"},{"start":11423.095,"end":11439.569,"text":"可是當川普說會有兩千億美元的投資的時候一種可能就是川普碰轟他就自行的加碼另外一種是不是台積電仍然未來有可能進一步的對美國的投資包含投資英特爾"},{"start":11442.232,"end":11458.991,"text":"這個問題我有去了解跟公司來了解這個狀況那因為他們也表達的清楚他們對媒體的回應說這件事是不存在那他們告訴我說他們現在的態度也是依據他們對媒體的說明內容"},{"start":11459.491,"end":11475.783,"text":"所以川普那2000億美元是口誤或者是他自己錯誤的理解我個人的看法他應該是把台積電未來進去所做的營運的費用都放進去或者是供應鏈進去投資的費用算進來"},{"start":11476.761,"end":11490.734,"text":"所以基本上還是應該1000億美元再加上之前的650億但是每個公司都有營運成本會在那邊發生那每一年都會發生那這個發生舉個例子好了如果公司的毛利是40%100億在那裡就會有60億的發生那所以他會有不斷的發生加上供應鏈的投資"},{"start":11494.778,"end":11513.626,"text":"好 最後一句話 因為也響鈴兩次就是身為關股 因為我們還是最大的股東我覺得我們還是要嚴守 您作為董事要幫我們政府的關股來做把關 好不好是的 這個我一定會努力做 我一定會做到好 謝謝謝謝委員我們現在請賴瑞榮委員做詢答"},{"start":11523.203,"end":11524.092,"text":"好 謝謝召委 請留之為"},{"start":11534.645,"end":11549.69,"text":"我先請教一下那個台灣的景氣的燈號從1月份出來看來是從紅燈降為這個紅藍紅黃燈黃對那主要怎麼看接下來的整個景氣狀況今年台灣的景氣狀況這個紅黃代表我們在一個溫和的成長狀態"},{"start":11554.051,"end":11578.078,"text":"那我目前從AI的需求包括半導體先進半導體AI相關的訂單來看的話它還是會帶動我們的外銷持續成長那第二個部分是國內的投資我們今年預估會到5.7兆會造成創歷史新高那最近其實我們也看到很多產業會有集單進來所以目前我還是比較樂觀看所以樂觀看大概是整個景氣的狀況"},{"start":11579.858,"end":11600.938,"text":"那我們也看到其實美國的財長他其實對於他們的整個景氣部分他擔心是疲軟甚至於民間部門是衰退的主委怎麼看待這個其實我們有在觀察舉個例子他1月份的民間的銷售指數他是衰退了0.4是這四年比較高的"},{"start":11601.879,"end":11615.931,"text":"對那我們也在看他的領那個就業基金的就業基金的人數那的確有比較偏高我們其實有持續在在觀察但是他最近通膨是有一點下滑所以還呈現一個不是那麼明確的狀態"},{"start":11616.992,"end":11638.984,"text":"所以你認為還要再觀察他有好消息有壞消息剛剛你講的這些好消息前面兩個是不好的後面那個是好所以我們還在觀察那包括他的PPI指數那這個會不會對台灣產生相關的一些聯動跟影響美國是我們的主要出國之一啦所以值得我們好好的去看他的變化"},{"start":11639.104,"end":11664.705,"text":"所以主委怎麼看 審慎樂觀的看待這整個狀況目前還是審慎樂觀 但是我們還是要非常非常的小心因為政策 這個是一個很敏感的時候尤其是四月份 五月份會是一個我們很重要的觀察期四月份 五月份四月份會是一個很重要的觀察期因為四月份他會提出他們對於各國關稅的一個狀態"},{"start":11666.741,"end":11690.626,"text":"那當然他有講到是說投資的多關稅就會少但是我們還得看一下是就等於是川普政府他在於關稅上面他最後的政策對我們還是得看他最後的政策因為他跟各國談判的結果就處理了所以想到這個景氣的方向因為我們難以預測現在各國都難以預測啦所以我們才會我會用兩個非常小心就是我們的確是非常在意這件事情"},{"start":11691.266,"end":11705.344,"text":"那另外今年的經濟成長率大概各機關都評估3%以上主委應該也是樂觀的看待3%以上因為目前有些是訂單的狀態的確我想魏哲嘉先生在跟總統的記者會上也講他訂單滿到"},{"start":11706.886,"end":11724.955,"text":"不能再滿,那也因為這樣還有新廠需求可以已經到這個程度那這個整體的發展看起來AI的變化還是持續往上走這個需求的變化還是很明確那今年的可能的這些的像川普的現象還有包括台灣內部的一些政治紛爭會不會影響到台灣經濟生產率的這個影響"},{"start":11729.031,"end":11749.703,"text":"有些會影響啦有些我舉個例子好了我們政府投資會有縮減的現象那大概會有0.08%你講的就是說我們被大量的刪減跟大量凍結這些狀況嗎對包括我們前瞻預算並沒有審核嘛那這個都會造成這個會影響到多少的經濟生產率大概0.08%啦0.08%它會有一點0.08%的影響那如果解凍不順利的話咧"},{"start":11756.187,"end":11777.563,"text":"解凍不順利我們可能要再算現在算的是解凍順利在上半年解凍是刪除的部分那另外就是0.08是刪除的部分另外還有一個就是川普上來之後全球在看他的政策都是會認為對GDP會有傷害就是傷害的大與小大概大家都有一個高中低的劇本那"},{"start":11778.837,"end":11804.022,"text":"的確GDP會有一點影響但是我們已經考慮了這幾個因素進來我們唯一沒有考慮到的是前瞻預算跟現有預算的三減的部分但是川普的部分我們在去年估的時候有估進來了所以還是要努力的守住3%以上對 我們會去努力守住好 那我再請教一下這個對於我們的我看到國發會有些也被刪包括被刪了2.2億甚至被動了30% 3.1億左右"},{"start":11807.444,"end":11824.966,"text":"這個對於我們的亞系計畫人才的計畫跟資安的計畫會不會產生影響這個預算三減多少會有影響那有幾個部分會影響比較大的還是第一個就是資訊的部分那個會影響到我們對資安跟政府公報"},{"start":11826.047,"end":11847.263,"text":"那這個是影響比較大雖然金額是一千萬但是影響是比較大一點就是我們等於行政院公報會市安的部分行政院跟各單位包括團體兩百多個單位的溝通會有一點目前是稍微是有影響這個對我們影響是比較大所以雖然看起來它是一千萬可能它的影響會超過五千四百萬的地方"},{"start":11848.224,"end":11866.333,"text":"另外就是各單位的電費其實我們在去年提出預算的時候沒有考慮到10月的漲價10月份在漲價之後其實再減15%統三下來其實就我了解不只我們各部會大概電費都會出現很大的挑戰好 因為10月有限我趕快進到下一個5400億400萬這塊也是影響比較大對我們這個產業發展"},{"start":11872.377,"end":11893.248,"text":"主委一起努力啦我們來努力來改變這個那接下來是因為時間很有限那個亞洲資產管理中心這個是總統的政見這個也大力在推動當中那高雄已經有成立了第一個金融專區主委有在協助跟掌握吧有的有的有的我們目前有16家業者已經簽了MOU跟政府這16家都會進駐嗎"},{"start":11894.349,"end":11903.063,"text":"他們都是表達高度的意願那同時我們現在在開放很多的銀行申請私人銀行業務那我們希望能擴大這個這個亞洲資產中心的"},{"start":11906.109,"end":11934.168,"text":"的一些量能對 因為第一個點是在高雄來做專區的在雅灣對 那雅灣4月份開始進駐那7月份要正式來起動了嘛所以謝謝委員幫忙沒有 這個這要全力來出力那現在的部分它的範圍會不只在幾棟建築嘛我看了現在最新的規劃會在周邊的雅灣周邊都會做一些的區域都會做整個它會逐步擴大啦我們一開始先以操作為主OBU的操作那慢慢會再擴大業務量業務範圍"},{"start":11937.15,"end":11955.078,"text":"好那除了16家銀行以外我看有些的我們的公股的部分像其他的像台銀、土銀這些未來會有機會來加入嗎因為我們現在就我了解來申請這個私人銀行業務的銀行是有增加的趨勢那這些都有可能會應該都會下去"},{"start":11955.898,"end":11976.676,"text":"對我希望這不是只有金管會的事啦我希望也不是只有在我希望國發會用國家的整體高度這也是總統的政見所以這件事情也一定要成功的啦那特別是在現在的不管是國內資金或國際的一些資金我們希望他在爭取未來不管是新加坡甚至於香港甚至於日本的這些競爭上面"},{"start":11978.137,"end":11995.57,"text":"在台灣在高雄取得一定的一個優勢那這有很多的配套措施必須要一併來處理我希望國發會用你們的高度來協助好的那另外是我要請教的是裡面其實還有一個重要的是稅負優惠的部分這個部分諸位有什麼看法怎麼推動"},{"start":11997.131,"end":12012.992,"text":"稅賦的優惠的部分我們現在會協助這個金管會跟相關的部會去溝通稅賦的部分那包括這個是目前是比較重要那會隊的部分也在溝通中那看起來也算是比較順利"},{"start":12014.033,"end":12030.521,"text":"那稅賦還要加把劍這幾樣都是重要的一個成功的那個不然為什麼人家要來到台灣來到高雄我希望在這一塊用這個國防會的高度去協助你也是政委我希望用這個高度去協助去做處理讓整個金管會讓各部會間整個動起來"},{"start":12033.723,"end":12058.589,"text":"因為我覺得有些體系上相對是比較保守一點的那如果國發會用國家發展的高度去處理而且這也是總統的政見落實政見也是國發會一個重要的工作沒錯沒錯所以我希望用這樣的高度去協調處理更大的一個開放更大的一個彈性讓整個這個金融產業在台灣能夠更蓬勃的發展好的好不好這請主委再大力來推動好謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":12060.92,"end":12071.203,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請蔡議與委做詢答現在做以上宣告 我們中午不休息 延長開會時間至議程處理完畢好 謝謝昭緯 我們是不是有請國發會主委 劉主委"},{"start":12093.017,"end":12117.999,"text":"蔡委員午安主委好主委那上午大概很多委員都跟你聊了包括台灣的半導體包括很多產業的佈局但是我覺得有一些跟生活比較有關然後比較增開的事情事實上也是我們國安會管的我們國安會就管國家的資金政策那我直接跟主委報告我們在講村裡的辦公室"},{"start":12119.031,"end":12140.248,"text":"村裡的活動中心我們現在好多村裡是沒有活動中心的那為什麼要沒有活動中心呢因為我們內政部在補助村裡不管是活動中心或者是辦公室常常就是集會所我們每岸就補助400萬這個400萬已經20幾年沒有變了那我們知道現在整個營運的營建的成本都提高成這樣"},{"start":12141.569,"end":12159.286,"text":"這一個補助400萬這件事情內政部補助400萬完全沒有調整這造成說事實上我們單地中央補助這400萬對地方來說第一還是抽不出錢對整個地方來說他還是沒有辦法達到所以我認為這400萬要調整事實上就這麼簡單"},{"start":12162.904,"end":12180.136,"text":"這個應該國發會站在你們的高度跟內政部溝通一下就沒問題了吧我們會去溝通啦但是內政部他可能要看他現在可動之的預算當然因為現在又卡到明年財化法之後對現在又卡到這兩個問題所以當然這兩個問題卡在那邊沒關係我們先來講這些做現代事都變歹勢了就變醫療生命庭經外自己來就歹勢了對啊但是這都是一些很小的狀況"},{"start":12187.922,"end":12194.217,"text":"那這些狀況都造成整個的自愛難行那這是第一個第二個就是說因為事實上台灣"},{"start":12195.697,"end":12218.626,"text":"我們的這個少子化問題這個很嚴重所以在這個少子化問題的嚴重是讓我單舉兩個這天下雜誌的一個統計數字在2022年全台灣就有179個村裡這個村裡是沒有小孩子的當年度沒有半個小孩子出生整棟喔"},{"start":12219.586,"end":12233.391,"text":"就149個然後你看幾乎每個地方都有新北26個我們嘉義縣竟然是第二名21個苗栗縣是9個那如果以另外一個數據來看的話有11個村以內是連鎖5棟連鎖5棟都沒有"},{"start":12238.643,"end":12265.234,"text":"包括新北的平溪的青銅里啦 瑞芳的銅山里啦我們嘉義縣布袋鎮的考試里 梅山的這個壁湖村台南的中坑里 高雄岐山的中寮里連鎖五檔 一個小朋友就沒有三星出來這個當然有好多的問題 少子化本身也是一個問題但是第二個就是說 呈現出來就是這個政科"},{"start":12267.449,"end":12295.717,"text":"樽咖沒年輕人當然就沒孩子的三星樽咖為什麼沒年輕人就是因為樽咖的土地因為氣氛的關係高度的持分所以樽咖的建地算沒用去年輕人我如果要買房子我還是我伯伯伯伯都在家裡我可能去選擇民雄我可能去選擇鋪子但是我不會選擇在鄰近的溪口或者是六角為什麼呢因為我的樽頭"},{"start":12297.54,"end":12315.535,"text":"我年輕人在那裡 我要去哪裡都沒辦法 都是緝昏所以這個問題需要被解決所以我們這一次在國土計劃法 我們在展延六年的時候我們有訂了第八條 讓鄉村規劃入法就是說未來縣市政府必須要就鄉村的這個研擬鄉村的規劃"},{"start":12320.8,"end":12338.001,"text":"這一個八條就鄉村規劃要怎麼增加至少它的地目必須做有效的一個調整第一個解決池噴問題第二個呢讓他們這個增加他必須要有所謂的三生嘛要有生活生產生態"},{"start":12340.583,"end":12357.188,"text":"這都是國安會主導的那我現在想要請教主委的是說好那我們國有計劃既然已經有這六年的時間我們這六年的時間要怎麼做好鄉村規劃讓所有的真咖現在這個真咖的土地沒有辦法被利用的事情做一個解決"},{"start":12358.751,"end":12385.279,"text":"委員講得非常有道理所以我這邊我來找內政部國土署我們一起來討論也跟內政部的劉部長我們一起討論看看怎麼樣去做好鄉村規劃那現在就我了解他們也有意願往這個方向去來做一個規劃利用這個6年的延展6年的這個期間好好地把整個鄉村規劃做好"},{"start":12385.839,"end":12413.693,"text":"好 所以諸位我具體建議因為這個牽涉到的第一個池分問題也難解第二個地木問題也難解那這個當然就是說找國土署當然也要找農委會的那個水保及鄉村發展署大概這兩個單位是必要的那重點就是說國發會是不是能站在上位概念的一個立場我們應該要針對這六年先把要進行鄉村規劃"},{"start":12416.215,"end":12436.264,"text":"中央政府我們用鄉村規劃的一個設計的一個規劃費用這應該是規劃費用是不是要先匡列出來而且他必須要一套計劃這六年我們需要多少我們假設每年可能會有多少聚落會有多少村莊想要走鄉規"},{"start":12437.344,"end":12448.56,"text":"阿要走相規的時候應該他有一個前階段的一些預算阿之後才會有後面人要去簽同意嘛對不對阿要要轉年阿那都要時間,要不然第一類,一行的東西要先給空出來"},{"start":12453.727,"end":12466.32,"text":"所以我覺得國發會這件事情至少可以先把這件事情先盤整好接下來再請國土署啊或者是農業部的這個這個水保局那邊讓我沒關係我們找內政部跟農業部來開會來討論這樣的事情好"},{"start":12471.765,"end":12490.385,"text":"那這件事情就請諸位那第二個第三個議題就是說我們現在知道整個南台灣就是這個大南方的一個矽谷計畫那大南方矽谷計畫當然就是以高雄台南以及嘉義他們要怎麼把這一個"},{"start":12491.085,"end":12506.493,"text":"晶圓的產業現在整個台積電的佈局不管是在台南或是高雄他們的晶圓的一個生產基地或者是未來在嘉義的封裝基地那這個地方變成一個大南方的一個矽谷那所以交通的問題才重要"},{"start":12507.613,"end":12529.978,"text":"因為我們如果說三峽起來,一定要貨倉齊流,要如何讓流通,這些晶片要如何行山起來,要去封裝,封裝起來要去機場,機場用貨運每十載出來,這都是很多合文的,所以溝通的問題就要改觀,所以我們知道現在南科照跟高雄有一個S郎帶的計畫,"},{"start":12531.141,"end":12536.927,"text":"這S郎帶幾乎就是要南科到高雄那些整個園區包括沙崙園區包括南科包括橋科甚至到了高雄的小港那是S郎帶的部分我們的S郎帶就處理台南"},{"start":12549.501,"end":12567.469,"text":"但是未來還有嘉科這一段嘉義、高雄、台南、屏東四個地方對,屏東,對,到屏東嘛到屏東好,所以這個S郎帶起來後上面還有一段就是從太保到南科這一段所以主委你可以看這段是什麼這段是不是"},{"start":12571.654,"end":12589.1,"text":"我為這條橘色的這條是什麼?37的延伸這條就是高鐵高鐵這條就是高鐵高鐵就是沿著台37線在上面台37線但是台37線你看只有到只有到這個太保這裡的燈"},{"start":12591.227,"end":12610.452,"text":"所以這一段好可惜因為這一段就是高鐵喔所以我們現在台37線的延伸就是所謂高鐵下面高鐵的高架的下面這條台車樓所以你看徵收也很方便這條坐起來很方便的你現在這一條你看起來是一個I型的對不對"},{"start":12615.772,"end":12633.559,"text":"所以我剛才說SI,S人道,這條就是叫做I人道SI是什麼?SI就是系統整合就是C啦C喔C喔C喔,不是死去的C喔C是什麼?C就是晶圓啦所以我講的這條SI的產業人道"},{"start":12641.598,"end":12656.72,"text":"對不對就是所謂的以後就是這個矽谷的一個重要的一個幹線所以我要跟主委說現在既然有S郎代要做為台南高雄屏東現在跟嘉義這條I的部分第一年不分是不是也是要做"},{"start":12657.361,"end":12663.327,"text":"要走 要走 因為這會經過新營流營嘛那邊也很重要不是 維泰堡新娘 新娘一直拼下去到新七這個整個又因為高鐵的橋下道路所以方便徵收"},{"start":12675.039,"end":12685.227,"text":"所以做起來也會比較符合成本可以遵截然後又可以有一條筆直快速的道路以後所有的這個晶圓產業不管是要跑去哪裡要跑北跑南都方便"},{"start":12688.992,"end":12717.813,"text":"所以主委這點讓你來支持你來推動出來我們來支持啦我了解現在在做一個可行性研究啦但是可行性研究會拖可行性研究會拖所以我建議分段實施分段實施好啊我們來跟一個對 你知道可行性研究它又牽扯到每一個地方有不同的環評的條件該環評還是走環評但是不用環評的地方可以先分段為實施比方說我們太保到新營這一段"},{"start":12718.733,"end":12737.44,"text":"這個就沒有環評的問題因為它中間比較沒有經過一些人家說的失地的地方我認為像這種可以跳開環評的我們應該就要先實施可以這個可行研究一過就可以做分段實施了就可以跳開照圍的方式來跳開那就請主委來規劃一下S.I產業人道講好S.I產業這樣提供廢話住地我們就是一定要拚好謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":12746.724,"end":12769.815,"text":"我們現在請林倩琦委員做詢問好 謝謝主席還有各位部會同仁和立委同仁 大家好我是不是先請劉主委劉主委"},{"start":12781.44,"end":12794.787,"text":"本期長期在教育文化委員會所以對於整個人才的培育非常的重視所以今天整個質詢的議題大概聚焦在如何強化國際與本土專業人才的延攬與培育確保我們的產業競爭力"},{"start":12796.668,"end":12807.36,"text":"所以我這邊談一下依據我這邊調到的資料在113年到115年重點產業人才供需調查及推估當中台灣有18項重點產業有8項面臨人才的短處"},{"start":12811.445,"end":12840.805,"text":"那么其中IC设计、智慧机械跟数位医疗等领域的缺口特别严重,超过七成的企业明确指出专业人才不足。那我这边想请教主委,你们是不是已经有掌握整个IC设计、智慧机械、数位医疗等产业的人才缺口,那么目前实际的短缺人数是多少?那第二个部分是针对这些产业的人才短缺,那你们有哪一些具体的措施跟成效评估的机制?"},{"start":12842.846,"end":12857.252,"text":"跟委員報告我們在做人力需求推估的時候我們的確就是依據產業比來做推估那我也跟委員報告我們在做比較細的探討跟教育部這些單位在探討的時候他們覺得最大的麻煩是"},{"start":12858.593,"end":12882.794,"text":"台灣產業要的是次產業跟次次產業的能力需求譬如說IC設計它有邏輯的有類比的然後又依據製程它又會有不同的變化那又依據用途又有不同的變化那他們整個從政府的角度來講光一個IC設計可能就會分出二三十種的類別"},{"start":12883.354,"end":12898.113,"text":"那這樣的人才的規劃上面是目前我們遇到比較大的困境所以是在這個細節的這個部分所以我們現在只能做到就是您這邊寫到的像IC智慧機械 數位醫療我們有這個數字我們可以送過去您辦公室給您"},{"start":12898.593,"end":12926.67,"text":"好的 那就麻煩您補一下這個資料但是我們在執行上就會目前比較大的困境是在產業要的是更是的 這就是本席來這邊要跟你們探討的因為過去我在對於教育的這個部分的人才有一些關注那當然我也很關注的未來的這個學用合一的問題所以除了您剛才講的那個資料是不是也可以把你們對於這些具體的措施一個成效評估的機制也送給本席你們如果有相關的資料"},{"start":12927.13,"end":12956.73,"text":"好不好好的好謝謝那第二個部分就是我剛才講到的那個學用合一那麼國發會你們在110年8月開始推動強化人口及移民政策那目標是希望在110年到119年延攬7萬名的國際專業人才那裡面包括國際的5萬人還有特定的專業人才要2萬人那可是審計部在112年的決算審核當中呢指出你們應該進一步來掌握就業金卡"},{"start":12957.57,"end":12982.215,"text":"的取得情形還有來臺就業狀況及申請意願並強化Talent Taiwan國際人才服務及延攬中心與各機關的協調來改善這個延攬的成效所以我有針對一下幾個人才的目標進度還有就業金卡機制的實施成效Talent Taiwan中心的運作效能還有你們在跨部會跨機關協調的成效評估這幾個問題"},{"start":12985.396,"end":13008.083,"text":"如果這裡面有你直接可以用口語回答的,你就跟本席回答如果沒有,麻煩你補資料好嗎?那我剛剛講到那四點,您有沒有可以直接跟本席回應的?我跟委員報告,我們現在就Telen台灣就業金卡我們現在是定期有在掌握數字到上個月為止是一萬兩千多張卡片"},{"start":13008.843,"end":13023.177,"text":"那大概這裡面有些人他是用業主的方式進來的因為他是比較高端我們這次給的是月薪16萬以上的這樣人才所以有些人會在國外出差等等大概有40%左右的人在台灣"},{"start":13025.459,"end":13037.229,"text":"所以您剛才講的這個比例結構我想時間的關係您是不是把相關的資料送給本席好嗎那上面我剛剛有講了四點希望你們的同仁有記下來就是知道嗎我應該不用再補述那個目標我們是存在的"},{"start":13041.893,"end":13059.032,"text":"那另外我也跟您報告我們現在會做一個改變就是我們會以通路改變從企業的角度就是我們在攬財的通路要擴大我們過去比較仰賴Talent台灣自己做我們希望把它擴大將來會變成民間企業組然後分到部會去然後大家一起來拉然後這個量才會變大"},{"start":13059.713,"end":13064.378,"text":"好的這也就像你們現在跟勞動部經濟部還有教育部的聯繫我希望也能夠更緊密當然你們現在有對產業那我相信這幾個部會應該在對學校對產業還有對其他相關的這個他們應對的組織或人口"},{"start":13075.79,"end":13094.51,"text":"會給你們更大的一個支持所以可能部會之間也要再更緊密接下來本期要談的其實就是人才培育跟產業學的合作那這個就談到本期長期關注在整個教育體系怎麼樣培育人才的這個部分所以目前儘管今年"},{"start":13094.97,"end":13121.219,"text":"大家在這個資工等等因為AI產業的關係我們有很多學生要進入這樣子一個領域但是人才的數量跟品質其實還是沒有辦法同步的提升這除了在教育體系我們對學生品質提升以外那個在人才的這個部分我想跟您請教產業界也有普遍反映大學畢業的學生技能跟實務需求落差過大那要直接上線的時間也比以前越來越長"},{"start":13122.459,"end":13146.491,"text":"那你們如何改善產學落差的這個問題然後讓學生能夠畢業及就業那第二個部分是你們是不是有具體的計畫來提升理工畢業生的實務技能可不可以提供某些誘因來鼓勵企業與學界合作加速人才養成不過這個部分本席因為在教育委員會大概對於教育部所提的機制有蠻深的了解本席今天問你最主要是想從國發會的這個觀點"},{"start":13148.252,"end":13156.562,"text":"國家整體的政策戰略地位來探討這個問題那你可以有很快的跟本席做一個回應嗎那如果沒有就補資料好不好好"},{"start":13157.984,"end":13184.878,"text":"那這個我大概很快講一下我們目前對於產協落差的部分我們現在是有補助到協助到研究所這個層級那協助這個研究所這包括博士生研究所整個以術生為主海涵博士生我們讓這個產業的業師進來教課那我們協助他們可以在學在那個教師費成本上面我們有協助他會不會是你們主政的嘛對不對我們不是主政"},{"start":13185.598,"end":13213.111,"text":"是出錢協助教育部所以是教育部提出來的嗎對 這些還是以教育部為主那剛才我提的就是跟產業界合作怎麼樣加速我們就書面報告給你是的最後一個可以請你直接本席這邊要了解應該是我們的高階人才外流的數據其實我可以請教你很快的主要目前流向哪一些國家那面對高新挖角的台灣人才那我們有"},{"start":13214.112,"end":13221.567,"text":"調整薪資結構的一些想法或政策規劃嗎或者是提高某一些誘因來留任高階的人才"},{"start":13222.611,"end":13249.297,"text":"我們高階人才外流就我的了解在實務面的話對岸的比較多因為他大概都用兩倍到三倍的薪資把我們挖走但這個裡面同時也常常會產生糾紛您可以看到新聞譬如說台達電等等都有去控告他一些離職的主管那這個部分我們是有提醒各單位我們是不是可以參考"},{"start":13250.997,"end":13276.308,"text":"營業秘密法跟國安法來做一些比較關注另外有一些是到歐美所以您這邊提到對岸是最多我這邊其實也有建議說你怎麼用提高誘因與其現在圍堵或者是用禁止的方式有沒有可能我們內在本質也可以做一些調整我的意思是更積極念我剛才講到透過誘因來提高人才的留任率我們是想從誘因來下手"},{"start":13278.729,"end":13279.029,"text":"我們現在請鍾嘉賓委員做詢答"},{"start":13312.032,"end":13319.863,"text":"主席 在堂的委員先進 列席的政府金融市場官員會長 公共夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們國發會劉主委和國土及離島處的黃處長和法治協調處的林處長請國發會劉主委及相關的單位"},{"start":13334.411,"end":13343.376,"text":"好 主委好 兩位處長好那我今天要問的就是台電吸收的離島供電虧損達千億那國發會應該盡速依離島條例來撥補來 請教一下 主委這是最近的一個新聞台電虧損達4200億預算照三減面臨漲電價調漲你認為一般民眾需不需要電價調漲"},{"start":13354.941,"end":13373.614,"text":"呃 民眾 呃 應該是不希望 當然啦所以我們民意代表呢 也認為說最好是要撥補齁然後呢 如果要漲的話呢 店戶小店家盡量調的幅度小一點 盡量不要漲但是呢 就在我們上星期3月9號呢 有個新聞喔自由時報在星期天喔他千億撥補渺茫啊 財務壓力沉重台電你追討1100億的離島補貼離島建設條例 是不是國發會管的啊"},{"start":13382.697,"end":13409.473,"text":"是不是行政院行政院管我們代執行對你們執行你們是副主任委員嘛這個基金好那為什麼要撥補呢你們看一下您知道台電的發電結構吧一般的火力發電高於平均電價成本2.78他高了一點點2.87其中燃油最高燃油高達7.3什麼原因因為離島這些地方呢都是小規模的都用柴油發電成本很高嘛所以台電是賠錢在賣電是不是這樣子"},{"start":13411.898,"end":13424.768,"text":"是的所以我們的離島發電的虧損怎麼樣89年通過離島經濟條例 它說離島用水用電我們中央目的事業主管機關審核後審核中央目的事業主管機關這個應該是經濟部要編列預算撥補資"},{"start":13429.571,"end":13441.278,"text":"可是89年通過90年行政院說這個拜託請台電自行吸收好奇怪立法院通過的條例行政院居然說叫台電自己吸收可是102年到104年經濟部有撥補34億您知道嗎"},{"start":13445.018,"end":13471.788,"text":"國發會知道嗎我不清楚國發會知不知道這個有撥補我們國發會沒有撥補沒有嗎沒有那我們看一下但是從105年開始又不撥補了行政院去函說不撥補了而且這個還告知經濟部但是呢113年就是去年的經濟委員會審查預算通過一個決議那麼要求離島基金延逸撥補台幣的可行性國發會有沒有收到"},{"start":13473.339,"end":13477.864,"text":"你們有收到,而且你們發函,今年就發函問經濟部你們1月14號發函問說請經濟部研議相關內容提供給國發會,有沒有想起來了來,處長說一下"},{"start":13492.001,"end":13519.56,"text":"跟委員說明因為我們為了這個議題我們有發函給經濟部經濟部的回應就是說希望離島基金來做撥補順便也跟委員做個說明其實以現在離島條例來講第14條的規定是中央目的事業主管機關審核後然後編列預算那以目前水電來講其實都是經濟部在編列預算很好很好我們要請法治的林處長來"},{"start":13521.305,"end":13547.954,"text":"那個是逗點目的事業主管機關審核後 逗點編列預算撥補資林處長這個逗點後的主持是誰啊離島建設條例主管機關是行政院他只有說請中央目的事業主管機關審查審查那份金額告訴行政院對不對 行政院一開始說你經濟部自己處理但是我們立法院要求怎樣要求要離島基金來撥補離島基金誰管的"},{"start":13551.989,"end":13561.163,"text":"呃離島基金是行政院管的嘛對行政院管但是你是副主任委員你們負責執行嘛我們負責執行所以就當然問你啦這個預算撥補寫在經濟部說用離島基金來撥補啊你們同意嗎我們對"},{"start":13566.96,"end":13580.44,"text":"跟委員報告 這個我們有洽詢過台電那你們 他經濟部發刊來啦說你們用理老基金撥補 有沒有能力啊理老基金剩多少跟主委報告 跟委員報告理老基金現在113年底剩8.86億8.86億好啦那每年台電的"},{"start":13583.804,"end":13612.747,"text":"撥補到離島大概是51到60所以這個額度會差很多主委聽到沒有這一筆帳你們都清楚但是你們是礙於怎樣靠爹沒錢啦所以請台電說你們還是找經濟部啦往下看來我要不要往前跳來用虧損供水虧損有撥補誰撥補的是經濟部嗎經濟部是經濟部好那經濟部今天不在但是經濟部的水啊一點點他就自己掏腰撥就算了但你說的供電的虧損是多少"},{"start":13613.769,"end":13641.906,"text":"五十億啊好 那五十億你們補不補啊我們來看 可以不補嗎主委你認為可不可以不補應該我們的額度是沒有辦法不管嘛 那是行政院的事情嘛你認為應不應該撥補依法要不要補 它不是法定義務這個是我們的法定義務是不是法定義務這還是中央目的主管機關負責的部分這是行政院禮導條例的法定義務好"},{"start":13643.171,"end":13658.704,"text":"如果你們不撥補會遇到什麼情況你知道嗎如果台電國庫不撥補台電的民股可以提告喔有沒有可能林處長有沒有可能提告台電公司有民股啊你依法的法定義務你行政院不負責民股會告你啊有沒有可能"},{"start":13659.653,"end":13688.542,"text":"好那告訴你來往下看所以目前離島的發電累計虧損的是1100億他決意要撥補的是2000年到2011年告訴你們還差了550億多後面還有2016年到2024的還要撥補所以加起來要那麼多好最後的結論了好結論你來看一下往前跳你們看到沒有113年離島建設基金的決算剩多少8億8 主委你們管的離島建設基金只剩這麼點錢"},{"start":13689.813,"end":13690.717,"text":"人家要的帳是1100億 你怎麼辦怎麼辦"},{"start":13695.381,"end":13722.633,"text":"這件事情並沒有到我這來我想是不是讓我去了解一下好那我告訴你怎麼辦往下看最後結論請國發會你繼續函詢經濟部去計算2012年到去年的離島供電的虧損數額問他一下問清楚到底這筆賬總共多少錢第二請你去找主計總處去研究一下預算是編列在經濟部的明年度的公務預算還是要撥補到你的離島基金用離島基金依法去支應這筆錢可以嗎"},{"start":13726.298,"end":13751.09,"text":"這個找主席總督研究一下這我們可以來研究一下到底整個詳細的內容好那因為主席邀我下台了我先最後說一句話就是你要知道啊如果是用離島條例的離島建設基金那是法定義務行政院送過來立法院不能刪但是如果你放在經濟部的公務預算我們去年把今年的就砍掉了這也是說給主席聽的謝謝謝謝"},{"start":13754.525,"end":13757.128,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想要先謝謝嘉賓委員 為離島的鄉親說話因為我現在服務金門馬祖 謝謝你好 我們要請主委 謝謝劉主委"},{"start":13781.664,"end":13793.703,"text":"主委午安好主委午安喔呃此時此刻我們大家現在看到這個美麗的風景喔不知道主委你有沒有去過呃我去過馬祖好去過馬祖這個畫面就是馬祖喔那再下一張"},{"start":13796.816,"end":13820.607,"text":"右手邊是連江線左手邊是金門喔這兩個美麗的島嶼呢我想不管他在文化上或者是生活風土民情上或者是經濟建設交通建設教育建設其實真的仰賴中央非常非常多的資源那我自己非常好奇喔就大的方向我們來看好了國發會114年度預算遭到大幅的刪減我想要知道就金門線還有連江線"},{"start":13822.309,"end":13826.96,"text":"目前我們可能在這個預算大幅刪減情況下會造成哪些影響"},{"start":13827.942,"end":13853.643,"text":"我們主要是 我們從大方向來說就好好不好我只有4分鐘我們主要是離島基金我們被刪減了5000多萬然後另外就是我們在地方創生我們跟金門跟這個馬祖也都有很多的這個往來那這個部分也預算也受到影響主要是這兩個部分那再來我們就是我們資訊的那個行政院公報我們要公告到會跟這個金門跟馬祖"},{"start":13856.425,"end":13881.279,"text":"的政府這個縣政府的這個往來的資訊也會受到影響所謂往來資訊受到影響可不可以說清楚一點我們有一筆預算是來負責政府公報跟行政院可以把任何的事情可以跟縣市政府地方政府還有一些民間團體的即時性的溝通跟公告那這是每天都要做的所以這個也受到影響那是個受到影響因為他直接被"},{"start":13884.127,"end":13900.32,"text":"被剪裂還是凍結剪裂所以看起來確實有一些業務已經受到了影響我想要談不管是剛剛鍾嘉斌委員說的離島基金或者是所謂電費跟水費的補助到底是要透過經濟部還是透過行政院那個離島基金的部分"},{"start":13900.68,"end":13920.712,"text":"其實確實在很多議題上已經受到干擾受到影響那當然我認為這個是我們在立法院跟行政院必須要積極解決的事情我當然也期待更多立法委員可以一起支持可是就地方的鄉親來說大家的日常生活要照顧自己的日常生活已經很辛苦了我很希望我們後續可以趕快進行實質的討論如何解決剛剛主委您說的那些問題尤其是您剛剛說的地方創生"},{"start":13926.395,"end":13951.863,"text":"過往我也來自地方創生在更早叫做社區營造的工作我完全理解對於地方創生對於這樣的偏鄉來說其實非常的重要後續我們真的希望可以努力改善這個可能性當然主委這不是你努力就夠我們立法院希望可以跟您一起努力接下來我想要講另外一個議題在今天目前我們走進委員會之前相關的復議案已經超過10萬人連署"},{"start":13953.724,"end":13977.135,"text":"關於凱凱案有人提出我們先不討論實質內容因為每一個民意都展現他自己所在意的價值那立法委員如何修法行政機關如何回應這是後續的事情但是我們看到昨天晚上有產生這個當機的狀況不知道主委您知不知道昨晚當機的是抱歉我們沒關係我們讓您的同仁幫你回答好不好"},{"start":13979.585,"end":14002.039,"text":"好 沒關係 主委 我跟您說3月18號晚上因為大家太關注凱凱案了所以這個系統就無法順利連線在這個平台上就寫著公共政策網路參與平台近日因瞬間流量過大造成網路中斷其實我也想要提醒我們相關的這個壓力測試我們來看下一張其實在過往公共政策參與平台成案的負益量"},{"start":14002.839,"end":14027.612,"text":"今天這個案子來到史上新高已經超過10萬而且在我們此時此刻對話同時我相信它正在增加那確實它可能真的對國發會這個公民政策連署平台造成影響我們後續如何讓它的這個系統防範做得更好而不要因為人民對某些議題的積極參與讓剛剛那個連線無法順利的情況再次發生不知道主委我想要這邊你有沒有比較清楚這個狀況"},{"start":14029.547,"end":14047.94,"text":"我這樣我了解我回去會找我們的同仁來討論看怎麼樣把系統做看看預算當然我也很擔心預算啦我不是砍預算的人我是支持預算的人但是我很擔心因為我們的資訊預算被砍的比重比較高我回去看一下我們怎麼樣來應變這個比較重要的議題這個確實非常重要我想今天就先說到這邊後續有很多議題我們可以推進一起來討論謝謝主委 謝謝主席"},{"start":14060.048,"end":14082.18,"text":"我們現在請張雅玲委員做詢答謝主席 我們有請國發會主委 劉主委"},{"start":14092.745,"end":14119.07,"text":"主委好我還是想要針對促轉基金這個問題持續的跟主委做一些釐清雖然我們昨天有做一些討論不過我想要再確認幾件事情就是說因為我們昨天在講促轉基金這個東西您有提到說會有一個平台讓大家可以直接來提案我想確認一下就是說因為過去促轉基金的運作方式都是部會去跟促轉基金申請申請那其實"},{"start":14120.07,"end":14144.84,"text":"我們昨天就是講嘛就是它這些用途其實都非常的重複那我現在要提的就是當這個案子我昨天講的這個案子如果我們有一個台灣也要做一個類似這樣子的經驗館好了可是這裡面可能涉及的是有博物館展場是文化部如果大家覺得說我們應該要來收集兒童的聲音就像猶太博物館之前也是收集兒童的聲音嘛"},{"start":14145.76,"end":14163.038,"text":"但這件事情又是主管機關又是衛福部那如果有人大家會想說我外面想要做一個遊戲場主管機關好像又是內政部那請問當民間有一個這樣子的想法的話他到底要怎麼去進行這個平台或是這個流程大概會是什麼可不可以請主委詳細說明一下"},{"start":14164.54,"end":14185.235,"text":"好的,就我了解了,當然也許我們局長可以再補充,就我了解,這是一個整合的案子,進來會先進我們國發會,那國發會會診之後,我們會送進我們的委員會,然後委員是由政府跟民間委員所組成的,他們會來核定這個案子,就我的了解是怎樣呢?還是請局長詳細的說明好了,謝謝。"},{"start":14190.027,"end":14202.703,"text":"目前我們規劃要建置的這個平台除了可以申請可以公告我們的聯繫傳口跟提出申請案之外我們也特別會設置一個申請的專區那如果有跨部會的話我們會透過會審機制來"},{"start":14205.026,"end":14234.327,"text":"综合各部会的合作另外就会提到我们的基金管理委员会来做最后的审议所以这个流程就是说假设我今天提的这个案子我们就依循档案局下面的一个申请窗口把我的企划我的想法送到档案局那档案局不会做任何的审查就直接会看他觉得哪个部会比较适合就把这个案子分到那个部会吗是这样吗还是我们会看这个案子的性质还有它的额度"},{"start":14235.267,"end":14256.354,"text":"那因為會涉及到那個各部會的專業的判斷因此假設是單一的部會我們會直接請這個部會來評估這個案子有沒有重複以及是不是放進我們的未來的計畫如果是跨部會的話我們會敬請會審之後初步歸納一些初審的意見然後再提報到我們的基金管理會這邊來做最後的審議"},{"start":14257.854,"end":14283.974,"text":"這兩件事情齁 我這樣聽起來有兩如果說今天它非常明確是單一部會的話就是你們收到案子後就直接派發到那個部會嘛確認沒有重複之後就會進到後面的這些審查的部會自己送到促短基金的委員會來做審查嘛 對不對好 但是如果今天是跨部會像以這個例子來說它跨了這麼多部會那你們要如何的去判斷這到底要分到哪一個單位呢會不會每個單位都說這不屬於我的那這件事情該怎麼辦"},{"start":14284.734,"end":14306.82,"text":"假設是屬委員所舉這個例子您提到有相關的部會那這些部會都會是我們邀請來談同時我們會找行政院的人權署以及主計總署等等我們會來會商它的可行性已經有沒有這個重複那另外這個整個因為如果是大案子我們會最後會提報到基金管理委會這邊來做最後的審議"},{"start":14308.3,"end":14320.064,"text":"因為同時也想跟委員補充報告的就是在這個時候抱歉我先確認一下就是說在他送到基金管理委員會之前還不會確認是在哪一個部會對不對我們會建議我們會建議給委員參考所以等於是說好今天呢我們有這麼多不同部會我們會找他們一起來討論討論之後你們有檔案局這邊會建議一個單位"},{"start":14331.488,"end":14335.249,"text":"我們會建議方案給委員 請報到委員會這邊來做討論所以這東西最後就是透過這個促轉基金的審查委員來決議這個案子到底要不要派到哪一個部會那到底是要多少預算對不對是在這個委員會裡面來處理那我想再確認一件事情就是說在額度的部分因為你剛有提到這個額度那這個額度原本的上限是設定多少呢"},{"start":14356.115,"end":14373.441,"text":"我們目前對於各部會提報的預算並沒有上限民間提案的預算目前規劃上也沒有打算有上限那剛剛講到額度的部分是什麼額度的部分指的是它的核定的程序我們目前有一個給基金管理會的國發會院院士管理機關如果是200萬以下我們在這個流程裡面可能這個主委這邊是召集人"},{"start":14380.743,"end":14404.755,"text":"主委核定了之後我們就可以請部會來執行假設是高於這個額度我們就必須要經過基金管理會事先的審查那剛剛如果是兩百萬以下我們要事後跟基金管理會做被查超過兩百萬就對了好 再問最後一個問題就是如果說我想確認一下就是說在基金委員會的部分會不會遇到那個部會不願意承接的狀態我想這個要透過協調這個協調會是由誰來處理呢"},{"start":14408.503,"end":14422.869,"text":"基金管理会就是委员会这边是有足够的职权来做这件事情吗或者如果我们有需要的话也许可以透过行政协调的部分因为行政院的这个仍然是有业务单位在处理所以会透过可能到时候会请政委来协调对不对也有可能"},{"start":14427.382,"end":14444.909,"text":"目前我們文化部其實有設置國家人權博物館委員提到了這個例子目前在人權博物館裡面其實它有相關的一些計畫在推動也有申請促轉基金來做推動我想這個只是我舉的一個例子其實國外的案例其實是非常非常多"},{"start":14445.669,"end":14464.564,"text":"對那到底他是不是可以用國家人權管的預算因為其實國家人權管的補助經費相當的少在這一次的預算砍了之後就更少了所以要他來做這件事情其實相當的困難所以才會希望土土短期進來更多的開放然後讓民間的力量可以進來謝謝好謝謝謝謝委員我們現在請武力華委員做詢問"},{"start":14480.779,"end":14481.861,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國發會劉主委"},{"start":14493.197,"end":14508.291,"text":"主委午安在氣候變遷因應法的第三條有提到公正轉型裡頭呢有提到援助民族那這個公正轉型的定義呢如果根據OECD它的解釋就是說永續的就業產業以及經濟形態進行審慎的計畫與投資"},{"start":14517.379,"end":14535.268,"text":"那我也知道國發會是負責就是中央各部會學者專家民間團體公民參與機制收整的意見訂修之後提交給國發會由國發會整合為國家公正轉型的行動計畫那我在1月14號"},{"start":14536.849,"end":14565.707,"text":"我跟國發會經濟部能源署有受邀環境權保障基金會的一個邀請就是出席一個叫做台灣原住民族與地熱的論壇那整個結論就是說希望比照歐美紐澳等國來爭取原住民族地區能源開發的第一桶金然後也希望台灣應該要有原住民的地熱政策請教 諸位"},{"start":14566.027,"end":14568.69,"text":"您覺得這個您贊同嗎這我個人是贊同的好 謝謝那我看一下我其實在上一次我有質詢過經濟部那當時有一個案例就是在台東的金輪這個小小的地方有四處就是民間地熱發電廠"},{"start":14589.348,"end":14618.033,"text":"來去做專探來做投資而且他選擇的全部都是私有地那我們姑且不論他是不是為了要規避公有地要做部落諮商同意但是我有根據當時地方的一個訴求也跟經濟部來表達說應該針對部落諮商同意要有一個行政指引也要有一個爭端協調平台然後呢要有政府投資部落入股"},{"start":14618.513,"end":14622.879,"text":"以及地熱專區的試辦點辦理公聽會以及新型態的一種夥伴關係的討論那這個部分其實需要錢所以呢我們也就看了一下在我們主則的這個已經有看到"},{"start":14634.915,"end":14653.829,"text":"在2023年已經匡列了338億多來做公正轉型的一個裁員可是呢我們看了一下發現說這個地熱呢是把它歸類到第三項叫做前瞻能源它的公正轉型預算是0理由是說"},{"start":14655.431,"end":14674.132,"text":"這個已經納入戰略規劃未令編列公正轉型預算喔好那我們再來看看國發基金我們發現關於綠能的部分63項到68項大概都是水利啊太陽能啊電池啊也是沒有地熱好"},{"start":14675.413,"end":14694.702,"text":"那在這裡我就要特別看了那提到說已經列入戰略行動計畫那戰略行動計畫呢我們看到在前瞻能源因為地熱被歸類到這邊他是提到說要建立原住民利益共享機制單一的窗口再生能源發展條例的訂定增訂地熱專章促進就業機會因此我們來看一下"},{"start":14699.884,"end":14714.631,"text":"這個你們提到的原住民利益共享機制就是提到說2022年這個賺購費率新增原住民的利益然後費率加成1%那我們看這些民間他是怎麼樣去做所謂的利益共享"},{"start":14715.151,"end":14740.291,"text":"部落的辦理收穫季他就去捐個10箱啤酒啊 20箱個水這樣的一個贊助機制也許這個就是大家想像的利益共享機制那第二個呢我們來看一下提到你們說再生能源發展條例要增訂地熱專章但是只有提到公有土地但實際上大家都在討論地熱它不屬於私有地主它是一個共享的資源"},{"start":14740.851,"end":14757.027,"text":"那再來第三個戰略就是說要單一窗口但實際上我們需要的是政府業者部落融資的四方合作平台來做部落投資部落入股因為在國外就是做這樣的公正轉型基金然後呢去促進民間投資公正轉型"},{"start":14759.729,"end":14775.519,"text":"那再來第四個問題你們說要促進就業但是這樣的一個所謂的促進就業就是怎麼樣吸引外來的業者但是呢當地就業人才的培育而不是說在自己的土地上做低薪的勞工我要說的是這個種種"},{"start":14777.12,"end":14788.425,"text":"其實都有很多是我們自己在辦公室的想像但是我很高興因為我有看到夜報說要提到做治理沙盒其中一項就是地熱發電所以呢 主委我在這個地方因為時間很短我就是希望說能夠把這個沙盒去加入做部落回饋機制的一個沙盒計畫還有部落投資入股"},{"start":14802.552,"end":14808.613,"text":"私有地開發部落同意之際的一個機會為什麼這樣說因為部落公法人園民會也在院長的同意之下今年已經開始選定一些部落要來做部落公法人那這是一個很好的機會那另外呢我也是希望說再怎麼樣我們都希望提出一個地熱公正轉型尤其是對原住民族地區的一個具體工作項目還有呢"},{"start":14827.757,"end":14854.495,"text":"所謂的國發會國發基金編列地熱的公正轉型的預算那除了因為時間很短我也沒有辦法提供充裕的時間請您來回答但是我是希望說4月1號我們在那一次的論壇有說要辦一個公聽會所以我也言出必行所以在4月1號我們會在立法院辦一個地熱的公聽會那我希望說那個時候國發會能夠針對這些問題能夠有做出一個好的回應可以嗎"},{"start":14858.371,"end":14873.089,"text":"好的 我想我們會請我們團隊到您辦公室我們具體討論先來做一個討論是不是對 因為這個其實第六是我當時我是我放進來的意見謝謝那主要是在永續會的時候有些委員提出來我覺得這個意見是蠻好的好"},{"start":14874.591,"end":14893.121,"text":"那因為我們未來在地熱的發展是一個主要的方向所以我想說把這件事放進來也許會讓事情的推動更容易非常感謝所以我會請我們的團隊規劃一下我們再跟您報告好 謝謝主委您做出這樣的態度謝謝您也謝謝主席好 謝謝那我們現在請黃建斌委員做詢答"},{"start":14909.477,"end":14912.86,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請國防委 劉主委劉主委委員無案主委無案 主委本席是內政委員會的委員 很難得今天有這個機會到經濟委員會來跟您交流"},{"start":14931.738,"end":14954.006,"text":"首先本席要先對您表達讚許在去年0403的強振重創花東之後您親自站上第一線幫花東的地方創生的業者行銷那也獲得企業界的響應採購我們當地的一些商品那國發會執政外賓的禮盒裡面也特別選用了我們台東的紅烏龍那協助推廣台東優質的農產品"},{"start":14955.586,"end":14976.791,"text":"那因此本席相信對於東部地區去年面臨強震颱風重創交通觀光及產業您一定了解東部目前的困境那也很願意來幫助東部的鄉親所以本席今天就希望就我們花東基金的問題來跟你進一步的請教是否可以來進一步協助我們台東的鄉親"},{"start":14979.431,"end":15004.882,"text":"那花東條例是在民國100年6月29號由馬總統公布實行這個條例是為我們花東地區打造當初會訂制這一部法律就是考量到我們東部地區的財政有限以及我們交通建設不足的情況之下希望能夠透過花東基金的挹注提升居民的生活品質那達到我們東西部區域的均衡發展"},{"start":15005.942,"end":15018.248,"text":"那本席在擔任大武鄉長的時候其實鄉內的建設也受到我們花東基金的協助所以就是花東條例讓花東地區有額外的經費可以進行建設"},{"start":15020.168,"end":15040.378,"text":"那尤其對台東來說我們的財力其實是第五級的縣市那台東縣的幅員又如此的遼闊在地方自有財源不足的情況之下花東基金就成為協助台東建設的重要來源讓我們東部的鄉親可以有更公平的待遇那不過最近"},{"start":15041.325,"end":15055.393,"text":"我們台鐵宣布要漲票價那交通部也已經送到行政院來準備核定以台北到台東來說來回的自強號就要多300多塊那這對我們末端我們路線末端的台東縣民是極大的負擔"},{"start":15056.516,"end":15071.282,"text":"那我們如果拿台北到高雄的台鐵票價比較跟台北到台東其實是差不多的不過因為 主委 西部有高鐵 有客運 有鐵路我們東部的路上大眾交通運輸只有鐵路可以選擇"},{"start":15073.275,"end":15100.272,"text":"雖然說我們現在票價是同等的但是東西部的交通建設是非常的不平等所以台東的鄉親絕對不是二等的公民所以國發會也是離島建設條例的主管機關離島建設條例第15條之一明定為促進離島地區居民對外的交通便捷凡與台灣本島間對外交通費用應由中央政府編列預算補貼如期補貼票價者經由不得低於其票價30%"},{"start":15102.605,"end":15126.745,"text":"我想離島建設可以來補貼擁有400億的花東基金應該也可以來補助那本期之前已經跟交通部還有台鐵公司來召開會議我們希望中央如果執意你執意要調漲台鐵票價是不是可以參考我們離島建設條例的精神透過花東基金補助東部居民三成的票價所以在這邊我要具體的請教主委"},{"start":15127.466,"end":15152.182,"text":"目前花東基金是透過部會或者是縣府提案那未來如果有提送補貼票價的計畫那在我們有明確的裁員也就是花東基金的情況之下國發會願不願意來嚴厲支持讓花東在地居民享有實質的交通平權而不是讓我們花東地區的交通權益雪上加霜 主委"},{"start":15154.223,"end":15174.79,"text":"任何的需求只要是合法合規那又能夠得到審議委員的同意那國發基金自然會去支持那這個當然就是看我們的審議委員最後的決議所以包括在司法性跟合規性的部分沒有這個部分是主委是支持的是不是"},{"start":15176.574,"end":15204.639,"text":"呃只要在這幾個條件下我都一定支持這三個條件下我一定支持謝謝主委所以真的在這一塊部分真的需要我們國會有明確的表態因為交通平權這件事情是講了很多年可是目前確實都沒有做到但我們希望能夠在化動基金這塊能夠協助讓我們這件事能夠促成那這邊我就先謝謝主委我想委員您的方向是非常好的但是做到這件事有多條路徑我們也會去同時也會去溝通"},{"start":15205.739,"end":15230.273,"text":"交通部看看他有沒有可以也有其他的方案對 謝謝主委如果說交通部台鐵這邊的部分意見我們都相同的話那國防會這邊支持嘛對不對我們還是要看他在法源跟規定上面還有我們委員會的同意好 謝謝主委那不是我們單一可以決定但是我們會樂意來配合看看謝謝主委我就先代替台東的鄉親來跟主委謝謝謝謝主委謝謝主席好 謝謝"},{"start":15233.902,"end":15258.755,"text":"我們現在請徐新穎委員做詢答謝謝主席 本席有請劉主委徐委員午安 午安"},{"start":15260.01,"end":15282.535,"text":"朱伟请教您台积电赴美社厂请问审查过了没审查了吗就我了解他还没有送审但他送审之前应该会要经过董事会的合定正式的合定目前我们董事会还没有召开那未来的审查是不是一个过水还是就是一个形式不然怎么我们"},{"start":15283.635,"end":15304.529,"text":"這個台積電已經跟美國總統還有跟我們台灣總統都開記者會那個只是一個協議不是法律的依據法律依據還是要回到董事會的核定跟這個跟我們投審會的審查所以也沒有說一定定案這是一個意願"},{"start":15307.725,"end":15320.243,"text":"如果董事会大家的意见可以支持然后政府也同意的时候他才会付诸实现所以主委您是否曾经说过台积电赴美投资"},{"start":15321.368,"end":15348.675,"text":"有三大原則最新技術不會過去關鍵技術不會過不准過去還有國家安全優先您是否說過我說過說過所以您會堅持這個立場嗎會會堅持好那我們這個台積電到這個國外投資尤其到美國去他是否有實行所謂N-1的限制"},{"start":15350.459,"end":15357.971,"text":"在從我們從國家安全優先的考量的角度下是可以用N-1來看這件事情的這次會不會用這個"},{"start":15359.786,"end":15380.675,"text":"這個是我給經濟部的建議你給經濟部的建議好那為什麼就在最近川普川普總統還有另外美國的一位發言人他們都講我們以後不用仰賴台灣了我們美國就有最新最好的晶片所以"},{"start":15384.093,"end":15400.779,"text":"本席在這裡希望我們的主委未來在投審會的時候一定要堅持立場原則我們的護國神山絕對不能夠沒有變成護國群山還變成到美國去"},{"start":15401.909,"end":15418.463,"text":"那現在本席就本席所知台積電現在是兩奈米嘛他們生產的在台灣兩奈米那已經在美國先前投資已經在蓋的是四奈米所以這一次去最多最多他就到三奈米吧"},{"start":15419.504,"end":15443.904,"text":"對 這個是不能這樣看 要看哪一年他現在才第二個廠 現在是結構才蓋好嘛那到整個能夠量產最快是今年底最快是今年底 那再蓋第三個廠第三個廠再蓋好才會進到第四個廠 第五個廠那都是兩三年後的事了對對對所以他進到兩奈米一定是兩三年後的事了"},{"start":15444.352,"end":15468.096,"text":"所以目前一定不可能進到2奈米目前沒有那麼快一定是在台灣的2奈米運作順暢之後他才有可能往外移動好 那即將要審查他們董事會通過以後我們因為連總統都開了記者會了所以您有沒有瞭解台積電投資美國但最近川普還特別強調不是1650億美元是2000億他這樣講那本席想請問"},{"start":15474.938,"end":15484.184,"text":"這個錢台積電怎麼來會不會掏空台灣丟到美國去台積電投資在美國的場他資金怎麼來"},{"start":15485.632,"end":15512.845,"text":"資金怎麼來目前是沒有這個並沒有在董事會討論過了那只是說在他會在審計委員會裡面做比較細的討論對啊因為他的錢一定不夠這麼多嘛他的錢一定不夠那麼多世界各國也不會貸款給他那這就只能搬台灣的錢過去不會只有那個因為他很多錢資金調度會在美國直接就在地的調度了"},{"start":15514.366,"end":15536.242,"text":"在美国在地的调度他自己台积电内部调度还是美国会借钱给他他会跟美国的金融业就像很多公司来到台湾你判断美国金融业会借钱给台积电台积电的信用等级非常的高没有人会不想借给他啦"},{"start":15536.742,"end":15559.373,"text":"我們不希望掏空台灣我們台積電是賺世界人的錢來讓台灣經濟發展讓我們民眾財富增加我們請主委一定要堅定立場委員有一點我要說明台積電的產能80%在台灣也就是說它的80%的投資在台灣80%的投資在台灣"},{"start":15562.608,"end":15576.673,"text":"但是我们看的先进技术很重要技术过去人才各方面所以我才会提出三个原因他会不会入主Intel这个目前并没有被讨论过"},{"start":15578.101,"end":15605.021,"text":"所以他如果併購或入主Intel是不是也會要審查呢這個也是要審查的所以目前沒有討論所以都是爆派的就是媒體在講而已其實他們兩個公司一個可以比喻成汽油一個是柴油啦兩個混在一起這個引擎是不會不會好的啦會壞掉的對對對所以你也認同嘛代工跟這整個的研發不能拆開"},{"start":15608.116,"end":15635.416,"text":"他們想拆開他們是這兩個都是兩個文化是不太一樣因為Intel是單一產品大量製造所以坦白講就我所知他有的地方還在比較手工那我們代工業是會依據客戶的訂單會有一個比較跳動式的生產所以我們大量的自動化在文化上就不太一樣因為時間關係最後結論主委一定要堅定立場我們不希望哪一天在新聞看到讓我們全台灣大家錯愕的"},{"start":15636.457,"end":15652.169,"text":"的結果好嗎可以嗎可以好謝謝謝謝我們現在請蘇清泉委員做詢問蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在我們現在請黃國昌委員做詢問黃國昌委員黃國昌委員不在現在請陳冠廷委員做詢問我們請主委劉主委"},{"start":15673.134,"end":15685.424,"text":"委員午安午安 主委我們嘉義縣阿里山鄉他是有秀麗的景色那還有他的文化人文的各種的資產那近日有被紐約時報評為2025年最佳旅遊"},{"start":15688.325,"end":15715.145,"text":"的地方那我想請教一下我們阿里山鄉是嘉義縣內首個獲得地方創生的合併的鄉鎮那現在有推動阿里山2.0部落產業永續創生計畫那這個計畫是今年1月合併那預算是2289萬元那這一個計畫主要是專注於兩大部分第一個是北市村的觀光"},{"start":15716.288,"end":15745,"text":"他的創生那另外一部分是南山村的這個共榮發展那主要是人才的培育啦觀光共榮計畫還有傳承三大的推動來去推動部落的這個升級那跟過去我們注重的是基礎建設1.0不太一樣那2.0主要是計畫就是把聚焦發展跟弱勢區域的提升就是跟總統講的均衡台灣有他的這個不謀而合的地方"},{"start":15745.868,"end":15760.339,"text":"那我想請教一下我們現在中央預算受到這個大幅的刪減那我們這個計畫2.0的預算阿里山的2.0計畫預算有沒有受到影響好 謝謝委員關心喔因為這個計畫我們在今年的1月22號已經通過了"},{"start":15761.98,"end":15785.35,"text":"那已經通過的計劃我們在預算的使用上會以已經通過的為優先所以這個計劃我們會克服困難然後以這個計劃會比較優先來執行所以就是不會受到影響我們確定會受影響還有未來要申請的新的計劃才會受到影響但是這個不會嘛我們也可以跟我們所有的鄉親去報告說我們對阿里山2.0的這個創生的計劃我們是不會受到影響"},{"start":15791.092,"end":15797.908,"text":"那我想請教一下 那未來我們在實施這個計畫它的指標跟機制是怎麼樣 怎麼樣去來評估它的這個績效"},{"start":15800.184,"end":15829.464,"text":"我們現在對於這個新的計畫他提案的時候我們就會跟他商議我們如何去看他的績效成果那另外我們同時會搭配我們在清培站跟我們現在新的區域的這個協作的督導我們都有一些這個KPI這KPI包括有多少人返鄉然後帶動的人潮有多少等等我們現在都納入了這個新的KPI的管理"},{"start":15829.984,"end":15855.897,"text":"那我們希望能夠真正帶動地方的均衡跟發展所以我們很期待因為現在的阿里山它已經不是過去那可能只是國內的一個旅遊景點而已它基本上已經是串聯到世界各國都已經知道它的這個我們台灣的重要的地標沒錯所以它的重要性已經不是我們家的阿里山它是台灣的全國的一個重要的一個發展那它會成為我們很重要的一個標竿"},{"start":15857.037,"end":15885.014,"text":"那第二個部分我想要請教這跟我們嘉義的民雄航太園區跟我們的其他的這一個無人機的系統那就有直接關係無人機產業是我們總統的非常這個已經誓言要去發展的五大現在產業中的很重視的軍工產業那我們嘉義有一個無人機的完整的供應鏈那國發會的產業發展處在去年的秋季的報告有很明確的提到說"},{"start":15886.275,"end":15909.304,"text":"政府將輔導投入無人機跟反制系統反制系統的整合技術那我就要提到說無人機的反制系統已經受到重要重視性但是兩個禮拜前我們舉辦這個座談會有一些廠商都指出因為電信管理法的限制建置無人機的反制雷達系統設備會被NCC視為設置電台每年他需要繳納高額的規費"},{"start":15911.505,"end":15932.587,"text":"一方面國發會是要鼓勵業者投入但是另一方面就忽略了類似這樣子的法規限制有沒有辦法來去跟這個NCC來主動來協調看看看看電信管理法的一些相關的行政規範可不可以調整來去降低對這個無人機產業就是無人機反制系統產業它的這個發展的障礙可不可以排除你有什麼看法"},{"start":15934.548,"end":15961.07,"text":"這個是我們信賴無產業裡面很重要的一環所以我們會來主動找NCC來了解這個狀況好 那有必要我們來協助這個探討看看能不能把法這個相關做進行調整我們讓這個產業沒有這樣的負擔我們鼓勵的同時鼓勵當然就是有各種的這個激勵的政策獎勵的政策但是其實把一些法規障礙排除掉對於整個產業的前進是有很大的幫助也不見得一定是要"},{"start":15961.71,"end":15981.359,"text":"把資源投入是一方面把障礙移除也是一個可以重視的部分我們是希望說特別是我們現在大家都講說無人機的這個產業但是無人機的反制系統這個也是必須要重視的那這個地方再麻煩盡快跟NCC提出具體的這個方案好不好好的好謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":15984.877,"end":16001.207,"text":"我们现在请张家俊委员做询答张家俊委员张家俊委员不在我们现在请高金树美委员做询答高金树美委员高金树美委员不在我们现在请马文君委员做询答马文君委员马文君委员不在我们现在请叶元之委员做询答叶元之委员叶元之委员不在"},{"start":16003.103,"end":16022.676,"text":"登記發言委員處不在場外其餘均已發言完畢詢答結束委員張家俊所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢及未答覆部分請相關單位於一周內已書面答覆並複製本會本日議程處理完畢謝謝大家現在休息"}]}},{"id":"16532","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16532","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc62ae2672450bbbb2b761654f0ebe352d7a524d1b3d409a1a8b53b88fe52aa0d75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會（事由：「檢討特殊強制處分實務運用、司法審查及救濟」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-19T08:31:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-19T11:51:00+08:00","duration":11985,"影片長度":"03:19:45","委員發言時間":"08:31:15 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除現有專章之偵查手段外是否同意擴增新類型偵查手段如同意擴增建議納入哪些種類 宣讀完畢"},{"start":1887.336,"end":1911.566,"text":"好 謝謝主席在這個地方我想我就不另作太多的一個發言但是我們也很清楚在特殊強制處分是會針對人民的基本權造成很大的一個侵害也因此如果涉及到修法的時候其實在立法院裡面都應該要非常的一個謹慎再謹慎"},{"start":1913.547,"end":1932.301,"text":"但是我們就回顧說去年的一個修法裡面本來預計是由法務部主責的科技偵查的一個專訪後來經過朝野協商以後再改為在刑訴訴訟法來做一個修正同時本委員會在審理這個高度爭議的立法院職權行使法跟憲法訴訟法的時候"},{"start":1934.463,"end":1949.827,"text":"其實我們都很清楚當初在造成不同政黨之間火氣都非常的大所以結果這股火氣很不幸的也就延燒到整個神醫的科技掙扎法以至於也有很多的一個旗艦沒有辦法來"},{"start":1952.328,"end":1968.895,"text":"大家很心平氣和去做一個討論所以本席才去思考這個整個修訂特殊強制處分也將近一年的一個時間那這部法是不是有一些在當初在立法院審議的時候有沒有考慮的"},{"start":1969.995,"end":1987.626,"text":"有一些沒有考慮到非常周詳的地方那可能就藉由這場的公聽會來好好的聆聽學者專家的一個想法那我想最後本席再簡單的一個強調就是說特殊強度處分其實專章通過以後大家都會習慣把它當成是大詐釋法的一個一法"},{"start":1988.166,"end":2013.408,"text":"但是這部法的效力對於人民干預的影響程度那絕對不僅僅是偵查詐騙的一個武器它同時也涵蓋所有犯罪嫌疑人跟人民所以必然是一把雙面刃因為修法的時候我想就至少有三點需要大家再來去做廣泛討論的一個地方第一個"},{"start":2014.108,"end":2036.893,"text":"就是說司法警察違法科技偵查處分的時候人民沒有辦法來提起救濟第二個就是說緊急狀況之下事後向法院申請補發偵查的一個許可那第三個這個就大家爭執就很大的就是允許室內空間的一個大監看那上述這樣的一個偵查手段"},{"start":2037.893,"end":2055.948,"text":"其實各位與會的學者專家 列席的官員大家也清楚了你都可以在這個神不知鬼不覺的情況之下去發動那人民在這些偵查手段的面前必然是一個弱勢端因此事後的一個救濟跟約束科技偵查手段的執法"},{"start":2056.849,"end":2077.803,"text":"都是大家共同必須要去關心的一個焦點那也希望今天所有參與的學者專家能夠傾囊相授那暢所欲言也希望今天所有的發言讓我們的一個法律的討論甚至在立法院的修法的時候能夠更真於萬倍謝謝大家 謝謝大家"},{"start":2079.244,"end":2097.752,"text":"那在各位我先做一個程序上的說明在邀請各位發言的時候先就公聽會來進行程序來進行說明那首先學者專家先發言發言的順序依照簽到的先後順序那如果要提前發言那也請"},{"start":2098.712,"end":2128.472,"text":"先告知這個主席台我們會視情況來做一個調整那本委員會呢本院委員呢按照登記先後的一個順序來做一個發言如果陸續到場我們主席這個地方會穿插來做安排請委員來發言那第三個就是最後啦就是再請我們政府機關代表來發言那針對學者專家以及委員的意見來加以回應那與會者請到發言台"},{"start":2128.952,"end":2156.746,"text":"發言那在主席右手邊的是學者專家列席的機關代表的發言台那左手邊這個地方就是我們委員的發言台那由於公聽會主要是在聽取學者專家各界的意見所以每位學者專家發言時間十分鐘那我們本院的委員我們今天就比較謙虛碰到學者專家我們都來聆聽他們的一個高見所以是五分鐘五分鐘"},{"start":2159.732,"end":2173.279,"text":"現在我們請學者專家來發言我們第一位是輔仁大學法律學院的張明偉張教授主席在場各位先進 大家好"},{"start":2185.748,"end":2199.601,"text":"針對我們這次公聽會所要探討的主題也就是去年通過的刑事訴訟法有關特殊強制處分的修正是不是有什麼要檢討的地方以下就提供我個人的潛見供大家參考"},{"start":2200.742,"end":2219.668,"text":"第一個就是關於剛剛主席有提到對於警察的違法科技偵查是不是應該救濟這個問題在去年修法以後其實就引起軒然大波那其實針對這個立法上面的算是疏漏一般也認為說應該透過立法的方式"},{"start":2221.568,"end":2248.228,"text":"補正153條之10對於司法警察規範的缺漏因為如果沒有這樣子的修正對於司法警察的違法處分似乎就只能回歸到訴願的程序來加以救濟在法制上把它切割成訴願跟司法救濟就是訴願跟法院來尋求救濟的區分意義在哪裡似乎找不到"},{"start":2248.888,"end":2262.405,"text":"合理的解釋所以這部分應該有修正的必要然後再來就是對於153條之七是不是應該要送達辯護人其實也曾經引起一些爭論那這部分我認為說"},{"start":2265.709,"end":2288.457,"text":"因為這次的新修法並沒有類似24條第二項無庸送達的規定那如果參照32條應該分別送達辯護人的規定來看其實似乎應該存在要不要送達辯護人的爭議那這部分立法的意旨是到底怎麼樣應該由立法者來加以說明應該比較恰當一點"},{"start":2289.637,"end":2314.654,"text":"然後再來對於153條之十是不是有創設了辯護人獨立抗告權這個爭議我覺得從立法的文藝說起來其實政防兩面可能都還有解釋的空間那立法的意旨是不是真如司法院先前在新聞稿裡面所提到這個絕對沒有要創造獨立抗告權這個主張那是不是也有立法"},{"start":2315.795,"end":2331.612,"text":"補充說明的這個必要然後再來對於153條之8那這一條的規定其實是應該跟通保法18條之1的另案通信監察是差不多的只不過啊最高法院在110年台上大致5765號裁定啊已經啊"},{"start":2334.332,"end":2360.02,"text":"肯認立案通訊監察是可以適用相對證據排除法則的規定那我們這次的153條之8的修正還是認為要適用絕對證據排除這個似乎跟最高法院的這個大法庭的裁定有所抵觸這部分似乎似乎也有修正的必要那對於去年修法所漏位就是有意未徵定的設備端通訊監察規範的部分"},{"start":2361.921,"end":2383.701,"text":"事實上這部分對於實務的需求其實是實務上對這部分通訊是有需求的那去年可能因為立法的背景或者是立法的情境的關係肉未增加這一項的特殊強制處分那這部分其實真的是有這個增訂的必要以完善偵查工具的選擇"},{"start":2385.402,"end":2403.224,"text":"只不過在規範模式的思考上我大概可以提出一個比較不一樣的角度供大家思考因為傳統上我們都認為搜索的內涵只有包含物理性的實體侵害當作搜索而不包含所謂的隱私侵害作為一種搜索的內涵"},{"start":2404.165,"end":2432.735,"text":"那這樣子的說法其實在我國是蠻普遍的特別在1999年制定通保法的時候就是基於這樣子的想法而增訂所以你看通保法要保障隱私他就必須特別制定一個通訊保障堅強法來加以規範但是我們在2001年增訂刑訴122條的時候其實我們已經把電池紀錄納入可以搜索的對象換言之搜索因為電池紀錄的增訂以不再僅止限縮在"},{"start":2434.296,"end":2446.808,"text":"這個物理性侵害這樣子的內涵而已經可以擴及於隱私侵害的太陽那如果這個我們認知的搜索已經可以在概念上擴及到隱私侵害的太陽那對於"},{"start":2448.489,"end":2465.119,"text":"特殊強制征伐的手段也主要以隱私侵害為特徵的這個角度來說似乎我們是不是回歸到這個搜索的基本定義加以搜索就可以解決這個特殊強制處分因應科技不斷發展要不斷徵修的這樣子的困境"},{"start":2466.039,"end":2480.948,"text":"如果我們參考美國法治他們並沒有因為新型的科技變化而不斷地修正他們的刑事訴訟規則或刑事訴訟法來因應強制處分的需求從這一點似乎我們也可以看出"},{"start":2482.337,"end":2497.471,"text":"這樣子的這個傾向所以是不是乾脆在122條的搜索定義上明定這個具有隱私侵害特徵的行為都是屬於這個搜索概念所謂涵蓋的範圍"},{"start":2499.232,"end":2528.112,"text":"終極的解決這樣子的爭議其實我覺得是可以思考的方向畢竟憲法法庭在協同意見書也有指出對於人身自由的保障好像黃鴻霞大法官曾經協同意見書也指出法官保留應該就已經足夠是不是真的要由法律保留來加以填補這個是還有討論的空間最後一個我覺得我們科技偵查的正當程序"},{"start":2529.433,"end":2555.413,"text":"的內涵是什麼好像我們在探討上界限不是很明確一般來講我們都是只有開放在緊急狀態的時候才允許檢警以緊急強制處分的方式來進行強制處分可是我們153之一的修正卻認為說未達24小時的定位追蹤它其實是不適用令狀原則的法官保留的適用"},{"start":2556.514,"end":2570.909,"text":"那似乎是認為說為連續達到24小時的定位催中一概不構成隱私侵害那這樣子的立法定義是不是已經有過頭的這個嫌疑我覺得是有這個進一步思考的空間的換句話說在這個631號解釋"},{"start":2574.83,"end":2598.466,"text":"已經明確指出法官保留應該是強制處分的正當程序的內涵那在153條之一這部分又開放了法官保留的例外那這樣子的規範它到底正當性的理由在什麼地方似乎也有再進一步檢討的空間那以上我就簡單針對去年的法治修正提出我個人的意見請大家參考 謝謝"},{"start":2601.397,"end":2612.53,"text":"好 謝謝我們張教授我們那個醫事人員今天公聽會我們連來的客人我們連水水質專家連水都沒有準備"},{"start":2619.237,"end":2643.699,"text":"這就有點開玩笑了好不好那我們準備咖啡不好意思我們不好意思這個立法院有時候在刪人家預算你說監督對象刪了他們自己還有一點點錢可以自己帶那個自己飲料來然後連邀請來的學者專家這個沒有準備這就怠慢了對不起等一下我們請醫事人員馬上準備咖啡那第二位我們請吳嘉琳大律師"},{"start":2650.407,"end":2663.575,"text":"那主席各位與會先進好那其實我今天可能先介紹我自己好其實我先前是在台北地院第一批成立強制處分專庭的時候我是那五位的法官之一"},{"start":2664.713,"end":2687.507,"text":"所以其實當年我在強國主任專庭大概有三年的經驗都是在核發監聽票跟搜索票所以我今天主要討論的對象可能會是以我過往在核發監聽搜索票的時候在專庭的過程中然後法官從法官的角度操作上可能會遇到什麼問題來跟大家做一個分享"},{"start":2688.413,"end":2708.738,"text":"那今天討論的提綱有三個其實我應該會主要集中在第一個跟第二個那第一個是提到說就是科技偵查的實務運用司法審查跟救濟制度有沒有規範的建議其實應該說從司法審查的角度來講因為當年強制處分專庭成立的時候並沒有所謂的"},{"start":2709.938,"end":2736.813,"text":"所謂的特殊者強制處分所以就如同剛剛張教授提到的就是我們很常遇到就是可能法規範它沒有那麼的具體但是法官他在收到申請案子的時候就會遇到說到底這會不會落入到底是落入搜索的範圍還是監聽的範圍舉例來講就是當年還沒有那個M化車的規範但是我那時候就收到了一件關於"},{"start":2738.394,"end":2756.763,"text":"偵查機關他想要出動M花車那當時我個人是從比較積極的面向在考慮這個問題因為其實偵查機關他可以用更寬鬆的角度來面對新型態的偵查但是這一個偵查機關他是選擇他寧願跟法院來申請"},{"start":2758.052,"end":2782.71,"text":"就說等於是說像剛剛張教授提到是不是在現有的法治底下把它歸納到監聽或者是搜索的範圍然後取得了一個法院的令狀然後再來執行這個科技偵查所以其實以現在科技日新月異的前提下其實真的很難去窮盡說所有的偵查手段都會被納入到法規範的審查"},{"start":2783.971,"end":2800.12,"text":"所以其實如果以立法論來講的話除了剛剛張教授提到就是是不是第一個寬廣的定義譬如說有限制到人民隱私的嚴重侵害到人民隱私的都應該要原則上由法官來加以審查"},{"start":2800.97,"end":2819.663,"text":"那至於在執行辦法裡面應該要去規範說這個部分的判斷應該是要以寬鬆的方式為之啊原則上是法律沒有的時候是不是原則上應該要來透過法院的審查來加以取得一個令狀之後再來執行那這個是第一點關於說取得的部分"},{"start":2820.39,"end":2849.89,"text":"那接下來我可能提到一下審查的部分在法院法官他在審查的時候會遇到什麼樣的問題首先我覺得這可能是立法天生的問題就是立法針對在到底要不要核發令狀的時候他的標準其實是很抽象的永遠都是有沒有必要嗎有沒有相當理由嗎那這個我覺得在立法上是可能是沒有辦法避免的但我覺得有一種立法的模式可能是可以"},{"start":2850.63,"end":2871.496,"text":"考慮的是可能是可以有一個層級化的標準簡單來講就是以我們當時槍鼠門專庭在辦案過程中然後加上定期的每個月的檢討我們自己至少有覺得有幾個可以來當作層級化的標準譬如說同一個案子同一個被監聽的對象"},{"start":2874.708,"end":2898.794,"text":"對他實施科資偵查的期間非常的長因為如果大家有在做那個有在做刑事偵查會知道說其實一個案子的證據的蒐集是要非常長久的時間所以可能會遇到譬如說一個強制處分案一個監聽的案子他可能就會監聽可能超過一年或兩年但是實際上在法條的文藝上來看其實"},{"start":2900.612,"end":2918.062,"text":"至少就法條文意上你沒有辦法去規範它所以是不是說在譬如說在法條的文意上針對一定期間以上或是超它的範圍它受簽訂的對象超過特定人數的前提下適度的去加高審查的標準那當然那個標準有可能就是"},{"start":2918.862,"end":2946.819,"text":"在立法理由去提及那當然也可以用文字上面去做一些描述那等於說讓法官他去依循的時候他知道說有客觀的標準來判斷說在什麼樣的情況下法官應該要從嚴審查那這個部分是審查的部分那再加上第三個部分是救濟的部分救濟的部分其實這個是一個很先天上的很難解決的問題因為所有的科技偵查都是"},{"start":2948.174,"end":2975.368,"text":"在秘密的方向進行如果不是在秘密的方向進行那案子就以檢察官偵查機關的角度案子就不用辦了所以他有一個最大的特徵就是當你準的時候你根本不可能去通知被科技偵查的對象所以其實最終你不太可能說及時的救濟會是讓這個被監聽的對象來取得及時救濟的程序所以"},{"start":2976.533,"end":2988.448,"text":"以客觀上來講唯一有可能的就是合法者或是審核者他的自我監督的機制所以自我監督的機制我們當初內部在討論的時候曾經有討論過"},{"start":2992.654,"end":3011.965,"text":"幾個問題啦就是說當然原則上大家一般都會講說其實令狀相當然他是呃因為他要快速嘛所以當然他就是必須要就是獨任嘛就是其實說白了一點就是當一個案子擺到法官桌上的時候他其實他一個人就可以決定要不要監聽超過十個人的一個監聽案子"},{"start":3012.972,"end":3026.372,"text":"所以這個其實是一個可以去思考的面向就是說是不是也是在針對當你超過一定年限然後或者是範圍擴大到一定範圍的時候是不是要適度放寬那個"},{"start":3028.021,"end":3056.875,"text":"就是獨任來判斷要不要變成是一個合議的方式或者是說啦譬如說以自我審查的角度來講我不知道這個是不是可行的通啦因為譬如說假官在還起訴的時候是職權送在意嘛所以是在某些程度的情況下要讓一個內部的審查在准許的時候在執行的過程中因為執行過程都是秘密的嘛是不是在試做的過程中要在立法上再去送一個在法院的一個自我審查的機制"},{"start":3057.864,"end":3086.425,"text":"那這個部分其實都是可以去做的啦因為這個畢竟是在執行的過程中因為你執行的過程中你就是沒有辦法也沒有必要去通知這個被監察的對象所以其實反面來講那就只能靠審核的機關自己來設立一些制度然後來讓更多的人來看到一些的案子然後這樣在這看的過程中其實大家也會再去思考說這個審查的標準到底應該去怎麼樣把它的具體化"},{"start":3088.783,"end":3110.38,"text":"那接下來救濟的制度其實我個人覺得其實那當然後端的程序是當時強制處分專庭在做的時候也會遇到一個困擾點就是說科技偵查在執行的過程中不可能通知被監察人但是監察結束後呢?偵查結束後之後要不要通知受監察人?"},{"start":3111.072,"end":3135.368,"text":"那這個又會遇到了一個兩難因為其實站在偵查機關的角度很多的案件它之所以停止偵查可能不是因為沒有發現犯罪嫌疑或是說覺得就沒有事了而是說它是另外一個偵查的開端所以以一個審查者的角度就會很常遇到一個監聽對象很多的案子"},{"start":3136.372,"end":3147.312,"text":"偵查機關就是會依照法律的規定一直定期的來跟法院呈報說不要通知受監察人所以就會發生說有一個很大的"},{"start":3148.115,"end":3170.983,"text":"監察的案通訊家的案子會變成說他一直擺著可能拖到一年兩年三年都沒有去通知受監察人所以這個部分我覺得在立法上可能也要去做適度的規範就是說當你通訊監察結束後一定的期間是不是就應該一定要去通知受監察人還是說要層級化的譬如說以這個"},{"start":3175.08,"end":3193.749,"text":"應該說以你當時申請通訊監察的法條的刑度然後再來去做一個層級化的分配譬如說罪輕本刑七年以上的罪你可能你如果可以拖到五年或十年你再來通知受監察人但不論如何都應該要通知"},{"start":3194.909,"end":3220.982,"text":"那這個部分可能是在後階段的問題那這是我針對第一題部分的看法那第二題的部分其實我剛才其實大概有提到因為今天是討論那個非實體侵入隱身空間嘛所以其實概念上都會很類似就是說在司法當你在做立法規範的時候是不是可以讓審查者讓法官知道或是申請人知道說其實就是應該要針對情節重大的程度來針對不同的審查標準然後讓"},{"start":3223.903,"end":3249.929,"text":"執行者知道說在什麼情況下他應該重演那至於第三點就是回應到我剛剛提到就是說其實應該是盡可能去抽象化現在的科技偵查的手段當然在適度的過程因為在科技日系運營的情況下讓執行機關跟法官還是有在那個範圍內來做一個審核因為有審核總比沒有審核好那以上是我的個人的一點意見 謝謝"},{"start":3253.476,"end":3264.622,"text":"好 謝謝吳嘉仁律師接下來我補充介紹陸續到場的學者專家李榮耕李教授還有林志傑教授還有連孟琦教授還有我們崇崇遠大律師"},{"start":3279.639,"end":3291.417,"text":"好 等一下到場的我們再來做一個介紹那接下來我們是不是來邀請我們智慧財產及商業法院的林永如法官請"},{"start":3298.516,"end":3319.512,"text":"主席 各位在場的先進 大家好那前面兩位先進已經講過了一些 那我就直接切入主題就是說對科技偵查的部分 這個第一個可能我們剛剛要討論到說有關第一個提綱的那個司法審查的部分那現在大家可能比較關心的就是第一那個短期追蹤 短期追蹤到底要不要進入到法官審查那這個部分當然是"},{"start":3320.854,"end":3335.351,"text":"當時的審查當時的那個立法的時候有考量到一些這個司法負擔的問題也有考慮到偵查的實效性那當然這樣的一個重心要不要把它轉成法官保留個人我是覺得有幾個可以考慮的點第一個就是說到底這樣的一個"},{"start":3336.592,"end":3358.084,"text":"都到法官保留對於偵查的效果會達到什麼樣的狀態第二個就是說真的法官保留量到一定的程度的時候我們也怕說也許法官他的審核的狀態沒有那麼仔細或者是因為案件量的關係當然這不是一個好的理由不過我們還是要考量到事實面所以這個部分可能也要做一個考慮"},{"start":3358.744,"end":3376.926,"text":"那當然最重要的我可能會把它重心把它拉到後面也就是說我們一直講的救濟的這一個部分因為事實上我知道它是兩個階段但是可能在科技偵查如同各位所知道的剛才如同吳大律師所講的這一個部分是它在前階段的時候都是密新型"},{"start":3377.426,"end":3402.269,"text":"那最後甚至還會再觸及到其他的其他的案件所以這裡才是重點也就是說如果我們後面救濟要做得更完善的話才是對我們人民保障是一個比較主要的一個核心的議題好那針對這個我就直接跳到這個第二個議題的部分也就是我們講救濟那在講救濟之前我想要從四個角度來切入然後一個就是說第一個我們講的說到底"},{"start":3403.211,"end":3415.392,"text":"這個科技偵查已經做了之後有這個特殊強組已經做了之後到底人民他的救濟的哪一些面向那我個人會把它分成四個第一個就不能去不能續行也就是"},{"start":3416.816,"end":3432.137,"text":"可能各位覺得怪怪的因為我們都已經做完了一般的像這種情況大概都已經做完才會通知但是有一些例外我先講四個一個是如何讓它不要續行下去那第二個是說我們說的是特殊強處的干預的結果不會擴大"},{"start":3433.258,"end":3454.19,"text":"那這個當然會等一下會再講第三個就是他肝疫結果可以回復原狀第四個就是損害賠償或者甚至於是這個補償的部分那第一個我們講說能夠停止大部分如同剛剛所講的在這種情況之下大部分的情況是都已經調查完完畢了才會做這個通知那偶爾有一些例外偶爾有一些例外跟可能就是說"},{"start":3455.211,"end":3482.318,"text":"不小心被他發現的這個似乎上也發現過不小心被他發現甚至於搞不好是有洩密的那各位可以說這種情況很少但是事實上這次的我看那個司法人的強處辦法那個執行辦法事實上也有考慮到這一點也就是在送達前的通知他就有效各位可以去參考一下這個他部分他就可以16條他已經可以做到這樣的一個救濟程序所以在某種程度是可以去避免後續的繼續執行但是這個確實情況很少"},{"start":3484.238,"end":3512.359,"text":"那我也回溯一下這個可能會影響到哪一個就是回到剛才等一下會講到的那個知識的救濟沒有司法警察司法警察部分沒有辦法救濟所以在這一個點上會產生沒有辦法停止這個繼續的問題那再一個就是我們講第二個所以這個部分到底要不要規範現在目前是因為我們執行辦法16條有一個規則那大家可以去參考那一條看看那可以看看後續司法機關做的一個情形到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":3513.499,"end":3536.221,"text":"那這個當然也會牽涉到如果多講一點就是有沒有試探試探他有沒有被偵查的這種情況之下這個當然是另外一個考量點但所以我說這個部分要看後面有沒有有這個問題再來第二個就是說我們干預結果不會擴大那這個部分到底是什麼這個部分重點就是說簡單來講就我們講這八就是說到底這個證據能不能用在本案以外"},{"start":3536.761,"end":3556.916,"text":"那剛才這個各位都知道就是說我們現在之八的這個153之八的規定是把現在原則上是現在本案的部分才能作為證據那如果是額外的比如說關聯性案件或者是最輕五年以上的才可以例外作為這個證據的來使用那這個部分當然就是說透過這種方式能夠盡量讓"},{"start":3558.217,"end":3574.419,"text":"在偵查階段 也許他就是讓他法院這邊審核讓他去做這樣的一個特殊強處但是他對靈敏的侵害能夠限縮在一定的範圍也就是不會到本案以外那本案以外的話以現在的規定是可以在剛才講的關聯侵害期間或是5年以上"},{"start":3574.599,"end":3591.68,"text":"那至於要不要放寬一點或者再窄一點放寬一點譬如說三年以上或者譬如說特定犯罪類似通保法那樣或者是乾脆完全沒有但書全部殺掉這個就是可以看大家的共識這個部分只是跟大家在討論一下說這個部分也許是可以再觀察看看"},{"start":3592.401,"end":3615.259,"text":"那第二個部分另外這個議題還有一個比較重要的就是說那假設它是違法的科技偵查有違法的特殊強除的時候到底有沒有這一條的適用也就是說我們剛才我剛才講那個前提是它就是合法的如果它都是合法的話那進入之八是比較沒有問題假設它是非法的假設譬如說事後撤銷或是根本沒有的話那這一個部分到底能不能用到"},{"start":3616.66,"end":3633.489,"text":"18或者是說還是回到158之4的這種情況那當然如同剛才所張大教授所說的這個部分事實上在就算我們用原來的通保法的那個18之1的第三項的規定事實上他也是把他認為是158最高法還是把他認為是158之4可以去做去做一個這個"},{"start":3635.09,"end":3659.985,"text":"權衡那當然這個是我們立法機關當然要去做絕對禁止是對人民是比較有利的那這個部分是至於說是不是將來有修法的意思或者是這個現代的執法是要調整掉原來最高法案的這個見解這個是可以討論的那再一個我們就下一個下一個部分就是說我們講說這個損害的擴大不要第三個"},{"start":3661.518,"end":3678.825,"text":"就是干預的結果可以回復原狀那這個是什麼意思其實就是銷毀的問題對我們這撤出搶儲部分對人民最重要的問題是因為他的隱私已經被那個資訊留在了國家所以如果站在那個讓這個資訊不見的角度其實就是銷毀或者刪除"},{"start":3680.106,"end":3683.308,"text":"那現在是放在芝芝芝芝芝芝芝芝芝芝芝芝芝芝芝芝芝"},{"start":3699.857,"end":3726.823,"text":"層次是不同 因為一個就是可以作為偵查的的一些情資 但是另外一個可以做證據 這跟剛剛第二個是不一樣 那跟大家再說一下 那所以這個角度也是一樣 也就是說大概這個情況之下到底要不要再放寬 只要偵查就可以 還是說這個就回到整個政府資訊來管控 這邊不特別做規定這當然是另外一個議題 當然這更大的議題就是政府取得人民的資訊的時候到底他要去怎麼做處理 這個是"},{"start":3728.603,"end":3757.156,"text":"非常大的一個議題那所以這個部分當然是可以討論那但是我看這一次的執行辦法就是雖然這辦法 訓練辦法其實在11條第4項可能有特別有特別去強調就是說當事人是也就是說受調查人是可以請求執行機關來做銷毀這個其實是一個非常重要的一個條文我個人覺得如果有這一條的話相對的會讓人民有權利去去請求這個執行機關去把它"},{"start":3757.816,"end":3783.199,"text":"可能是存在他那邊的一些資訊能夠做銷毀那當然這本質上也是一個也是一個對人民有效的一個效果那再一個就是第四個就我們剛才講到說如果說另外一個損害賠償的部分那現在現行法上損害賠償當然就回到國賠個人隱私等等那另外其他你有沒有懲戒行為或者民事個人的請求那就是我們現行法一般法規的規定沒有放在刑事訴訟法"},{"start":3783.92,"end":3812.079,"text":"那當然執行辦法這一次也有特別在這邊做一個宣示這個部分他在11條12條那邊有做12條做一個宣示那當然另外一個可以再深入討論的就是說那到底在合法剛才講的賠償的單元都是非法那如果是合法的情況之下到底有沒有需要給所謂的補償的問題但目前是沒有這個部分也可能可以再討論但是這個量可能很大所以可能要再做斟酌那另外剛才我想要剩一點點時間"},{"start":3815.161,"end":3833.894,"text":"來講一下那個知識的部分就是司法警察跟講司法警察來救濟這個部分確實很重要就是說以目前現行法規以及現在的這個知識的規定這個司法警察是沒有辦法透過這一條司法警察的緊急處分這個第一項的部分這個是沒有辦法透過這個知識來救濟"},{"start":3835.755,"end":3852.805,"text":"當然把它加入是把它對一個更加一個完整的一個模式的那這樣一個就尊重這個各位的這個想法但是我想要說站在比較司法熟面跟大家討論幾個部分就是說可能可以想一下就是說現在到底我們"},{"start":3857.921,"end":3872.326,"text":"這一個條文下去之後 我講實務商債就可能會更清楚就是說事實上如果用扣押可能會更清楚就是說扣押物會有發還的請求然後本案會有這個強制處分本案會有那個證據能不能使用的問題"},{"start":3873.286,"end":3887.322,"text":"然後國家賠償也好民事求償也好他也有個別去認定的問題所以我要講的是說這有非常多的案件都是在審核一個事情就是強制處分到底合不合法這一個事情那以現在的條文來講應該是不會有拘束力"},{"start":3888.183,"end":3904.409,"text":"要有拘束力可能要有一些法律的規定那這個就是說在討論上可能各位在思考這件事的時候我也自己也會在想說如果有非常多的案件都是在審這個那他的意義到底在哪裡那到底要不要讓有拘束力時間到了主席我可以多講一點還是要就先講"},{"start":3905.549,"end":3919.875,"text":"那這就會牽涉到那我想要跳開一下下刑事訴訟法各位可能會覺得說那怎麼在這裡跳開我先講一下比如說我們講到行政法的話行政法的話如果有一個違法的強制處分事實上你是會先做撤銷然後同時會去做請求"},{"start":3921.576,"end":3943.755,"text":"也就是說你會加一個損害賠償會加一個特定義務行為那你會跟行政處分是會合在一起的它是不會被分開的那這個是一種情況另外一個呢那它有相應的法規我想不多講另外一個就是說我們在講民事訴訟的時候事實上一般我們在講確認違法確認存在不存在的時候我們一般都會請求給付之訴不過再去加一個所謂確認關稽確認特定給付請求權在不在"},{"start":3947.518,"end":3967.306,"text":"我講這個意思是說有沒有必要讓那麼多的案件分散在很多不同的法官來做讓當事人有重複起訴的應訴之法他要每一個案子都要請律師相對的機關也一樣要做這個事情那我的意思就是說也許大家在思考要不要立的時候也要想讓看這個立法能不能更完善而不是"},{"start":3968.646,"end":3990.823,"text":"可能就是說就像大家覺得說上次的立法沒有很完善那我也是建議說如果我們要把它加進去的時候要整體思考更多的面向那事實上如果對司法有一點這個熟悉的話就會知道說非常多的案件在一樣的問題給不同的法官來審酌的時候其實並不是一件好事情對當事人也是一個負擔以上謝謝"},{"start":3994.036,"end":4004.867,"text":"謝謝林法官最寶貴的意見接下來我們邀請我們台日刑法研究學會的林玉順理事長"},{"start":4011.404,"end":4027.474,"text":"主席各位先進大家早安大家好今天很高興可以來這邊跟大家分享我最新的觀察跟研究因為題目很多前面幾位先進都從第一第二第三條陸續講"},{"start":4028.795,"end":4044.215,"text":"那我之前預測我想說是不是從第三題跟大家開始回應然後321降下來然後也把過程當中從這過程當中我們可以看到我們台灣的問題在哪邊好那"},{"start":4049.454,"end":4075.863,"text":"有嗎我覺得我們現在這個問題一個核心的概念就是說因為科技爭吵日新月異我們幾年前沒有想像說有AI現在有AI了然後我們立法一直跟不上我們這個科技的進步那相對的人權也是一樣我們覺得如果立得不好的話往往就變成是有人受害了然後再叫了那我們才知道那真的都是問題那怎麼"},{"start":4078.524,"end":4103.978,"text":"去看待這個問題其實我們稍微回顧一下我們見往知來我們看一下我們這一二十年來的整個偵查的一個過程當中以前我常常講說以前是用聽的在辦案那時候同意聲音監察最熱門的時候那現在大概聽說是我們師傅當然警察師傅也是一樣大概監聽大概都聽不到東西了"},{"start":4105.051,"end":4120.464,"text":"然後再進一步發展就變成是一個最終定位好像可能跟我們去年的修法很有關係我們知道我們去年的修法其實早在修法之前我們事務單位在用那就是因為沒有法令依據所以有些第一線的同仁就以身試法"},{"start":4122.423,"end":4136.071,"text":"那最後就是尤其我們現在可以看到很多CCTV也是一樣都用看的所以我們現在一些低線的同仁現在變成是每天就綁在螢幕前去盯去分析他們的軌跡足跡之類的"},{"start":4139.033,"end":4155.961,"text":"可是我覺得現在到現在的狀況我發覺已經剛才提到的網路世界虛擬空間犯罪者已經跑到躲躲在網路世界裡面了那我們怎麼把"},{"start":4156.721,"end":4177.735,"text":"把這邊找出來甚至做證據收集保全來達到所謂的一個追緝犯罪的目的我覺得如果說我們把它整理一下一個最終的就是我們現在面對的對象如果你不知道這個對象在什麼地方其實我們再厲害的科技再厲害的人力或資源的投入也是沒辦法所以我這邊把它我今天的主題是講電子紀錄電子紀錄"},{"start":4181.172,"end":4204.865,"text":"好那最近這幾個月因為我現在在一個台日剛才陳儒主席的介紹一個台日刑事法學院的這個團體裡面我幾乎每個月都會接到日本的學者來訪或是一些事務單位來訪那我帶他們到我們不管是法務部的單位檢查單位或是在警察單位刑事局"},{"start":4206.001,"end":4229.771,"text":"他們常常就 我們台灣就難得機會交流嘛他們問一個問題我們現在詐騙這麼多 常常都是用LINE那LINE我們去看要是要不到那怎麼辦 你們日本怎麼解決我想我在現場在做這個介紹或是做這個中介的時候就覺得有點不好意思我們一直以為LINE是一個日本公司然後是不是他們有比較友好的一個"},{"start":4231.474,"end":4253.55,"text":"總共是在日本的話其實比較好拿資料結果沒有所以我就查一下其實我想可能這個社交軟體這個通訊軟體我想大概是全世界標準大概都一樣我這從他們的官方網站揭露起來他們一些目前的政策其實開宗明英就講"},{"start":4255.106,"end":4281.622,"text":"他們希望來調資料的這些我們偵查單位、地下同仁的偵辦機關你一定要有一個法律的依據那這邊常常講到是不是要法官的搜索票之類的那給的資料其實也有限因為時間關係我詳細的資料都在我的PP裡面有講我只大概把一些基本概念跟大家做一個分享就是說他們希望有一個法官的授權"},{"start":4285.014,"end":4310.416,"text":"那我在整理資料過程當中我們發現這個還是熱的我發現日本也應面對跟我們台灣第一線的同仁或是人權保障我想台灣跟日本社會大概一樣大家有同樣的信仰同樣的價值同樣的理念那他們怎麼處理這個問題可能他們現在在上個月28號他們把這個法送到他們的國會當中在討論這個問題"},{"start":4312.557,"end":4323.673,"text":"也就是說對於這樣的一個修法或什麼犯罪形態他們怎麼去處理他們創造出一個新設法院核發電子命令的一個強制處分"},{"start":4327.765,"end":4351.26,"text":"那另外重點就是他們思考很簡單他們還是把它放在刑事法裡面我是贊成放在刑事法裡面因為你在放在刑事法裡面的話你才能跟之前各種強硬的指紋取得一定的標準一定的人權保障所以我也是覺得應該是如果未來有相關立法修正的話我覺得還是放在刑事法裡面好那他們怎麼定啊他們就認為說"},{"start":4353.067,"end":4373.197,"text":"類似就是因為他們是一個對象是一個虛擬空間然後他對象是電磁記錄我再強調一下我因為時間的關係我沒辦法再做補充我們雖然現在刑訴法裡面有電磁記錄122條電磁記錄的一個那個所謂搜索課的標的可是我覺得那個規定實在太粗糙了"},{"start":4374.097,"end":4394.066,"text":"那個原本搜索扣法120條規定它是為了實體世界裡面的一個設想一個對象不可能把電池放進去它就是搜索扣法的標的所以也是這樣他們就認為說這電池記錄看不到 摸不到 感受不到我們人人五官所以他們設計的就是他們兩個方法就是要求"},{"start":4397.707,"end":4420.573,"text":"這個ISP業者也把或是保有這電池的機關或使用權的管理人他們必須要把他們我們經過一定的申請法院核發令狀之後他們有要求這個業者把他們透過網路設備或是透過他指定的電那個電池裝置去把它複製或是"},{"start":4422.633,"end":4438.368,"text":"放到我們的電池記錄上面來然後我們再去扣押這個東西它變成實體來扣押那重點是他們對於你扣押的標的或是你提供的方式在他們的這個新型的這個提供命令上有明確的規範"},{"start":4442.608,"end":4468.874,"text":"然後重點就是我想這個也是剛才提到這個我想這種國際的公司也都一樣他們為了要保持用戶的隱私權的關係或是要怎麼去折衷這人權保障跟這個犯罪的追溯他們都有一定的標準所以他們也類似我們的SOCIAL QUALITY一樣或是證人拒絕的結尾一樣因為公務或業務的機密有法律的依據的話你可以拒絕"},{"start":4472.396,"end":4495.57,"text":"剛才提到說 放在型數法的好處 它都有一定的標準不用特別法再去另 然後再去想一個可能的狀況那就回到原本型數法 原本的邏輯裡面去設定是比較好然後這邊更重要就是 你要什麼東西 要什麼對象你要列目錄給業者 這樣大家才能清楚權利義務的範圍如果說沒有需要的時候 你要把它回復原狀"},{"start":4496.971,"end":4520.593,"text":"然後再來就是說尤其這邊特別要跟大家分享就是如果偵查機關你真的有需要的話就類似我們現在的所謂的特殊強制處理一樣它的令狀的一個申請它裡面記載很明確而且它也訂了有效期間那期間經過就不能下去再能再去執行就是你在你的"},{"start":4521.634,"end":4549.995,"text":"設定的你要辦案的時間範圍或是你的標的對象清清楚楚明明白白然後才能去做那終究是要透過那個法院的所謂的法官的審查那同樣的你這個偵查過程當中如果說你業者為了他的完全都是業務考量利益考量那把消息走漏給他的消費者的話那也不行所以他們在這裡面有一個特殊的規定就是你在這個"},{"start":4551.296,"end":4575.893,"text":"類似這個搜索票的記載上在執行這個過程當中你有一個另外一個要求你這個對象這個業者不能把這個命令給他的那個對象然後再來就是有權力就有救濟你對於這樣的一個過程不管是法院的命令處分或是那個偵查計劃命令處分都可以抗告跟准抗告都有一些救濟的途徑"},{"start":4577.366,"end":4601.194,"text":"好那再來就是那各國人當中那你如果業者不聽怎麼辦那他們相關的刑事制裁的手段然後這邊有另外就規定的就是說不僅是治安人連法人裡面也有附帶的相關的罰金的制裁我想這是日本最新的一個狀況然後不僅是這個電池紀錄這種抽象的這個資料保障對金流他們有特別的規定"},{"start":4601.934,"end":4616.411,"text":"我想另外一個角度就是我想這個立法過程人權保障都是國際競爭那我們現在除了剛才提到的這種電子機的搜索要我們台灣這麼粗糙要怎麼讓它精進那再來就是他們金流我想也是我們食物產業很大的問題"},{"start":4617.372,"end":4641.842,"text":"那主席能不能再給三分鐘謝謝好那裡面簡單的講就是說那這裡面所隱含的我們遇到問題他們這些規定裡面的邏輯跟我們台灣是一樣的我們知道我們大法院4689規定不僅是公共場所影訊源保障那資訊自主權就是我們已經在憲法或是我們這個台灣這個社會已經確認了所謂的那個基本人權的保障"},{"start":4643.843,"end":4660.38,"text":"我們要蒐集不管是位置、定位或是隱私權相關的電子紀錄的話那一定要遵守這個原則我覺得裡面很重要的邏輯就是一定要經過立法院的授權我認為它是一個民主的制約"},{"start":4662.142,"end":4684.275,"text":"授權偵查機關行政單位就可以去做這樣的一個處分然後再來就是個案裡面也要有一個個案去審查人權保障跟所謂的犯罪諮詢的修正那我想這是關鍵那這裡面隱含的落中法規上大概有這四項重點就是第一個個案裡面要經過法官然後事前然後經過合理性的審查我想這個"},{"start":4685.256,"end":4713.363,"text":"然後再來就記載明確我講這四個關鍵就是不管我們未來在訂立什麼不管是實體空間或是虛擬社會我想這個都是一定要遵守的四個重點那最後就是關於電子紀錄我想這個電子紀錄跟我們實體公司不一樣這邊提到所謂特定政界困難緊急保全匿名加密還有需要業者配合國際合作我想這個都是我們未來面對這個無形的敵人無形的對象的時候該怎麼處理"},{"start":4713.903,"end":4734.616,"text":"然後他們日本現行法裡面他們不像我們有這個特殊的偵查強制處分他們原本在所謂我們類似我們一二條所謂物理空間的這個具體的物態當中他們的有一個電池記錄網路空間或是存儲專體的一個強制存儲規定那包括所謂的這個網路空間存儲裝置的複製扣押"},{"start":4738.018,"end":4762.736,"text":"或是要求的命令扣押或是所謂的新型裝置的扣押這詳細的話我的PPT或文章也沒有提到那我就不再醉言那最重要的就是剛才提到第一個我們現在有什麼問題我覺得剛才各位先進也提到這個通訊紀錄這警察機關的通訊紀錄沒有一個救濟怎麼辦我是覺得這邊我是不要提到就是"},{"start":4763.396,"end":4785.446,"text":"我想剛才提到就是說我們當初立法者我們立法院既然授權20小時或累計沒有超過兩日的話他是不用申請許可書了我覺得從我們不管是我們最高法案的判決或日本最高法案的判決或是美國聯邦最高法案的判決都一樣就是這個隱私權的圖像或是我認為是一個是不是"},{"start":4786.619,"end":4815.336,"text":"這是我們立法授權這個還沒有達到我們所謂的馬賽克理論裡面在這個短時間裡面還沒有達到一定的程度的話他不把他認為強制處分那我也認為說不是強制處分就沒有救濟嗎我也覺得不是這樣所以我就可以透過所謂內部的規範行政救濟甚至國家賠償來處理這個問題我覺得每個問題都要到立法剛才提到要到法院去做爭執的話我想我們司法資源承受不了"},{"start":4816.076,"end":4840.274,"text":"所以我是覺得是不是以上就是關於就是說不管是立法未來的新型的這個偵查的形態也罷或者人權保障要怎麼去救濟等等之類的或是我們現在目前的問題我就要回到我們台灣現在目前本土的所謂的所謂正當程序裡面的保障裡面然後真的是我是覺得現在國際競爭真的是很激烈"},{"start":4841.235,"end":4847.873,"text":"我想這不僅是一個政治的競爭也是一個法律的競爭也是人權保障的競爭以上謝謝各位"},{"start":4851.969,"end":4877.986,"text":"好 謝謝來 接下來我們今天買了幾杯 45杯今天邀請的學者 專家還有列席的官員今天來的都貴賓 今天不是在質詢在場的所有的機關人員全部都天氣這麼冷全部都要給咖啡好不好來 接下來我們請台灣公民人權聯盟許宥林大律師"},{"start":4890.044,"end":4906.014,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有各位專家學者大家好我是台灣公民人權聯盟的律師那當然顧民思義我們其實是一個民間團體那我們又是比較是著重在人民權利保障的一個團體所以當然"},{"start":4907.495,"end":4926.612,"text":"我們對於現在的這個科技偵查法在修法之後的一個狀況我們其實是比較著重在人民權利的隱私權隱私權和人民權利上面受到侵害的狀況下其實到底在現在這個法律的運作下我們其實會有比較多的擔憂這個出發點然後那當然因為"},{"start":4930.789,"end":4945.965,"text":"科技偵查法因為這個科技偵查法它其實變動的部分是把原來以前的這個比較被動式的偵查方偵查方法現在是變成是比較主動性的一個偵查的手段那甚至"},{"start":4947.646,"end":4968.653,"text":"對於廣泛性的取得人民的這一個隱私他的足跡或者是他的隱私的這些資料那甚至這個侵害之後其實他是不可逆的所以即便他不像是搜索扣押我如果違法扣押我其實事後事後其實這些是可以反反可是當我隱私權一旦被侵害的時候他其實是一個不可逆的狀況所以"},{"start":4969.873,"end":4997.177,"text":"就會覺得如果今天是我們的立法的目的是要出於說我們為了快速的偵查然後那也要降低偵查的一些執法的成本的時候那相對的其實事實上在這個法律程序的保障然後那甚至是事後的一個監督的管理這些要求其實就應該要更加的經得起考驗這個其實才是一個平衡的做法"},{"start":4998.664,"end":5015.118,"text":"所以回到所以今天大概我們的想法會是以這個方向來剛出發一個是到底這個法律的程序它是不是有經過嚴格的一個是不是能夠通過嚴格的審查那再來是事後的保障它配套的措施是不是也"},{"start":5015.818,"end":5025.743,"text":"足夠的經得起考驗那所以當然我們最擔憂的其實就是153之1的這一個就是短時間未滿二次角質或連續的這個短時的一個監控的部分因為它等於現在其實"},{"start":5036.929,"end":5053.615,"text":"並不用經過法官的保留那甚至其實是司法警察跟檢察事務官其實都可以去做執行所以這個其實是我們最擔憂的一個部分"},{"start":5055.836,"end":5073.865,"text":"那我其實是有在思考說 曾經我們也有在思考說為什麼其實時間的長短 就剛如同剛剛老師有講到為什麼時間的長短它可以當作是一個我不需要透過法官同意的這樣的一個法官保留原則然後那這個其實到底是為什麼"},{"start":5075.026,"end":5094.54,"text":"那如果今天其實他那為什麼他他到底跟153之6這個急迫性的狀況之下其實他這中間到底為什麼因為即便153之6他其實也是要事後那為什麼我短時間的我就可以完全不用透過法官保留來做一個檢驗我覺得這個其實"},{"start":5096.721,"end":5111.47,"text":"思考了很久唯一其實可以想到因為它也並不會有一個我有緊急性因為唯一我一個短時間我大概就是緊急性然後可是問題是我卻又跟後面的一五三之六這中間它其實"},{"start":5112.811,"end":5129.489,"text":"顯然又優於後面一五三之六等於我單純一個短時間我就可以構成我可以由警察我直接去進行的一個這個原因到底是哪裡我們其實怎麼想都會覺得它其實大概就是為了一個"},{"start":5131.892,"end":5143.807,"text":"成本的考量其實成本的考量那當然是警察他可以很有效快速的去做偵查那當然後面也有一個考量是後來司法能量怎麼樣法官去審核的時候是不是會有一個"},{"start":5147.048,"end":5167.003,"text":"能量爆炸的問題但是即便是出於這樣的考量但他真的可以取代了我們其實這個法官保留原則完全不需要經過這樣的一個程序保障的問題嗎這個其實是我們會怎麼講都覺得他其實是一個不是很有不是很合理的"},{"start":5167.903,"end":5184.088,"text":"不是很合理的一個制度設計那再來的話是即便以現在的這個所以如果當之後如果要去修法我們其實還是會覺得應該要去倡議的部分是不論如何其實不管你至少要有相對的一個法官保留啦"},{"start":5184.528,"end":5197.958,"text":"那完全不用而且其實他甚至現在又是我的檢察官不只是檢察官我其實是直接警察跟司法檢察事務官我都可以直接去做這樣的偵查手段其實對於民眾來講其實這個"},{"start":5200.22,"end":5206.105,"text":"不可確定的風險我覺得是我們其實覺得實在是太高了那再來即便是照現行法的一個規定那其實短時間的這樣的一個偵查的動作20小時之內的這個偵查動作那到底他現在是透過什麼樣的程序我們可以去確定說警察他現在的偵查範圍我到底是"},{"start":5222.318,"end":5225.321,"text":"他們內部有經過書面的審核申請嗎那我們要如何去框定我這個偵查動作我的暗游我涉及到的法條到底是什麼那因為它是一個很私密性的一個偵查的手段那其實"},{"start":5240.399,"end":5269.639,"text":"我們完全無法確定說他的客觀的一個時間那我要如何判斷他到底是不是逾越了原來153-1他原來的這一個法條而屬於違法的一個偵查動作這是一個然後再來的話如果今天我沒有辦法去判斷他到底是出於什麼樣的一個目的他的目的然後他的案有所涉法條我完全無法特定的話那我又要如何去"},{"start":5270.859,"end":5296.772,"text":"確定說他他這個偵查他是不是他未來其實是不是有可能有另案的問題他的另案扣押的時候他的問題是要怎麼樣去處理然後再來的話如果他今天這個是一個這麼私密他完全是在警察機關內部他們才有的資訊那又要如何知道他們其實實際上有做了這樣的一個偵查動作但我們被害人"},{"start":5297.572,"end":5316.587,"text":"有無備通知那我事後的一個救濟的方式我又如何去做如何去做我的救濟我這個其實完全對現在以目前的配套啦現在的這個科技政策法現在協議訴訟法的這個新增的條文裡面是完全沒有相關的一個"},{"start":5318.468,"end":5322.052,"text":"制度沒有相關的規定那所以就會讓人覺得其實在這個153之1它現在的運作下它恐怕會造成未來153之7我要怎麼去落實然後那153之8"},{"start":5333.864,"end":5357.953,"text":"我的以後我在其他案件裡面的使用他其實這個在1537跟1538他整個的運用上即便我們以後真的碰到的時候其實以律師的角度我要怎麼樣去怎麼樣去回溯怎麼樣去幫當事人做權力的保障這個其實我想都有很大的問題因為恐怕他有可能其實是連任何可以查核的資料都沒有"},{"start":5359.394,"end":5367.96,"text":"好那再來的話其實就是如果今天其實是違法取得的這個證據的資料那因為當然"},{"start":5374.585,"end":5389.157,"text":"即便是像通保法它們是它其實是有明文的規定它未來也許其實也還是它其實也許還是用權衡的方式是可以排除但是因為現在其實我們的刑事訴訟法的規定裡面是完全沒有相關的這個證據違法取得證據的時候它的證據排除的規定所以基本上在法制面上我們也還是認為它欠缺了一個完整的一個規定"},{"start":5403.929,"end":5426.277,"text":"那對於這個整個法制上其實它的規範保障其實是不足的那再來的話就是經過這個經過科技偵查它取得的這些資料那它要如何的保存我們其實是認為因為現在看起來都是由執行機關他們自己去進行保管那甚至銷毀的東西"},{"start":5428.719,"end":5448.357,"text":"這個部分其實也會連結到一個是因為我現在的保管其實都是在執行機關執行機關內部包括說我們其實比較主張它應該是有一個第三專責的一個機關因為甚至它的保管的"},{"start":5449.037,"end":5473.849,"text":"內容他必須是他要可以讓我們可以去攻擊說他當時譬如尤其是短期的偵查我到底是不是當時是依法調查還是他中間其實是有違法偵查的一個問題然後那也變我們可以去判斷他到底這個他所取得的資料他是不是有合乎目的然後他的使用是不是也有也有合乎他原來的使用目的跟範圍"},{"start":5474.889,"end":5477.392,"text":"那這個其實是我們再來第三個主張然後那再來的話就是關於違法調查的時候違法偵查的時候因為其實像通保法它其實也有比較加重的刑罰啦因為現在這個"},{"start":5490.265,"end":5518.381,"text":"就是講到說前面的很多的規定後那當然有一個是恫嚇那就是當今天的這個特別刑罰其實我們也沒有如這個通跑法有一個特別刑罰的規定那所以這個對於違法人執法人員的這個恫嚇的能力是不足那關於民事賠償的相關的規定其實是也沒有相關的規定啦對那所以大概是就一個事前事中事後然後跟一個恫嚇的"},{"start":5519.461,"end":5530.911,"text":"部分我們其實覺得都還有很多可以加強的部分好 謝謝好 謝謝許佑林大律師接下來我們請國立台北大學法律學系的我們顏榮教授"},{"start":5538.537,"end":5554.651,"text":"主席 再想各位先生大家好先謝謝主席為我們爭取咖啡其實我們又拿到出席費聽說隔壁都寫欠條了我們拿到出席費已經非常感謝先對主席致謝我原本今天想說應該不會拿到欠條還好沒有 謝謝"},{"start":5556.573,"end":5575.739,"text":"好 那今天非常榮幸在這邊可以跟大家分享一些我自己的觀察跟看法對於這個科技偵查的部分因為我已經脫離我原本是律師的角色今天是一個學者的身分那我想從一些比較法制面比較宏觀的部分來分享第一個是針對這個科技偵查其實"},{"start":5576.579,"end":5594.73,"text":"非常明確的是人民的隱私權還有偵查的效率那他還面臨一個很大的問題是科技動很快科技非常動很快所以他在一個這樣的狀況下又不得不做因為不這樣做想我們的法務部我們的第一線的警察人員是沒有辦法來進行偵查所以他有一個這樣子的一個"},{"start":5595.41,"end":5609.097,"text":"面向那我想要提出的反而是在這樣子的困境之下我想要提出跟大家都比較不一樣的觀點是在針對科技偵查這件事情上面我覺得行政面上面的資源跟這個建制比較重要白話一點的講說"},{"start":5610.578,"end":5635.3,"text":"最後我們得到的這些資料要如何保管如何取消或者是銷毀他們以及必要時在一審當中我們的被告我們的人民可不可以有足夠資料來為自己的防禦權來爭取他可不可以來有效的行使防禦權我覺得這個資料的建置保護其實是一件非常重要的事這個可能不是我們的刑事訴訟法裡面看得到的但是"},{"start":5636.761,"end":5653.307,"text":"抱歉以我個人來說這個我們或許一直在炒警察的部分的這個處分是不是要給他救急但是我想更嚴重的是我們會不會所有偵查機關得到資料然後一次被賣掉這個人民的資料全部都不見了這個我想這個反而是在資料的保管建置更重要的事情"},{"start":5653.807,"end":5682.824,"text":"甚至部分的處分它的重要意義是在一審程序當中我能不能夠爭執我能不能作為我無罪的證據或有罪的證據這個在一審程序當中如何爭執這個資料的保存會是更大的重點這是我想提出的第一件事情是行政資料這個建制保管不要讓資料外洩到某些地方去我們不想讓他去的地方這個應該是在談科技偵查的時候必須要去處理的配套措施"},{"start":5683.865,"end":5693.2,"text":"資料要保管得好 要有錢我們的資安 資管要有錢我想這個是要投入資源去保障我們人民的資訊我就是從很務實的觀點提出第一個建議"},{"start":5697.219,"end":5716.166,"text":"第二個是確實這個科技日新月異跟我們的股價一樣上下衝擊這個AI股價漲一下跌我們的科技也動得非常快那在這個科技動得非常快的情況之下我想這個在座所有先進都比我有經驗我們的形式思想法不可能這樣修"},{"start":5716.986,"end":5743.297,"text":"我們光是要開一個公聽會光是要這個立法院的立委們要能夠心平氣和好好討論依靠法律然後這個司法院法務部還要開好多好多會討論跟好多好多學者專家討論這件事情本身難度就很高所以第二個建議是我們的這個立法要稍微有點彈性那像剛剛張明文老師也提到說能不能在這個搜索這個條文裡面去含括一定的程度"},{"start":5743.797,"end":5772.833,"text":"的這個科技偵查的強制處分換言之我們以搜索跟相對法官保留為背景因為相對法官保留我想對於人權保障有一個基本的門檻在但是在不能說我們增加一種新科技手法哇 這個我們就要動一隻刑事訴訟法我想這個條文不可能這樣子修啦所以在一個框架之下應該要重點是說欸 人民我們什麼樣子的權利被侵害"},{"start":5773.433,"end":5797.221,"text":"不要講隱私權這麼廣泛喔 是我隱私權的內容嗎是要聽我的內容嗎 我家嗎 還是我的足跡 還是我的移動它對隱私權侵害 它一定不同 程度也一定不一樣這個要有一個不一樣的 寬延不一樣的管控方式那這個在刑事訴訟法之外 我們也可以在刑事訴訟規則在比較下位的法規做一些規範"},{"start":5799.022,"end":5815.609,"text":"一天到晚要動刑事訴訟法身為一個刑事訴訟法老師我是不可承受之重我的獎益已經是每年每年更新就是半年都要更新一次這個法律沒有辦法配合科技的腳步我們是必要做一個有彈性的立法這是比較概括的建議"},{"start":5816.909,"end":5845.828,"text":"那具體來講應該是針對基本權侵害的面向時間長短等有一些類型化跟區別那在這樣子一個比較宏觀的建議之下來看一下我們現在的部分就大家吵很兇的這個警察的這個部分到底要不要救濟我想先講一下我們現在在提到要給多少救濟這個是很現實的問題就是我們現場的法官警察官有多少人法官有多少人他們會不會"},{"start":5846.889,"end":5867.844,"text":"工作量過重這是必須要去考量的在正式進入本案之前大家都知道我們的羈押偵查中可以羈押你可以馬上可以提起救濟或是偵查中我們再去地檢署再去警察局的時候可以找律師那如果那個律師被趕走你應該要馬上有辦法救濟因為這種類型的救濟是會"},{"start":5869.286,"end":5896.622,"text":"阻止他的權利性害擴大我們要及時所以這種如果是以律師來說把律師趕走的這種處分都是警察做的我們應該也要給他救濟這個我可以理解但這意味著這代表著所有警察處分都要一視同仁我想事情也不是這樣子的如果我們今天國家預算超級多然後法律系學生每人都兩三千人變法官法官待遇超棒人超多我想救濟做很"},{"start":5897.122,"end":5920.988,"text":"很複雜 很多 這可以理解 可以接受但現實不是這樣這個法官工作量已經非常非常高我們在一個制度上必須談一個平衡所以是不是所有的警察的處分都必須要在偵查中可以給他以實的救濟還是如剛剛林法官提到要考慮一下這個救濟的情況下是不是可以及時減少損害的發生"},{"start":5922.668,"end":5938.786,"text":"如果這件事情已經確定那重點反而是在一審當中如何去增值他的證據能力在一審當中才是主戰場那如果說是像例如是這種辯護人他可以及時救濟是有好處的因為他可以趕快找個新的律師或是說你不可以把辯護人趕走這種情況下才是要給他救濟所以"},{"start":5942.589,"end":5964.575,"text":"這個題目或許要細緻一點來看 不能說一定要說警察做的我們就全部要有或是警察做的全部不要有 事情不是這樣子 這個要比較廣泛來談那偵查中有偵查中必須考量的這個利益啊 那很多事情確實是不可恢復羈押也是啊 人身自由就是不可恢復嘛 我被押就是被押"},{"start":5964.935,"end":5988.29,"text":"但是因為這樣就不能羈押嗎我想話不是這樣講的所以這個事情會比較複雜要考慮比較多的利益的面向比較多的利益的面向那這個我時間沒有辦法做很細部的條我想講一個概念那再來就是具體來說我們現行法官就條文部分我覺得比較至愛難行的部分是絕對有證據排除因為這個"},{"start":5990.752,"end":6014.268,"text":"我們現行刑事訴訟法裡面其實是只有刑求拷問啦就是五十年前警察打人啊好 這個可能是二十年前啦這種情況下這個被告的自白是一定要排除 因為不能用嘛這個任何法治民族國家都可以想像這個被告的非自由的公書是不可以用 是絕對排除但是很少很少的情況 因為"},{"start":6015.829,"end":6031.215,"text":"被告被打被威脅這個是違反我們的最低底線真的是沒有不用考慮我們排除這樣的證據但是在其他情況這個機關違法的情況千千百百種有些是小心一點小過失有些是很嚴重故意的違反的"},{"start":6032.406,"end":6053.605,"text":"那這個效果都會是不能用這個證據嗎我想要打一個很大的問號那我想這也不是我們實務上能夠看到的能夠操作的狀況但是我要說並不是這個違法是件好事違法我們就要給它過不是這樣講只是說這個絕對排除整個法律的體系來看它其實是少見而且"},{"start":6055.327,"end":6074.361,"text":"要是在這種很嚴重的狀況之下才能夠去做一個絕對排除不然食物上不管是就法理如何來說明輕微的違法跟你打人一樣要有一個一樣的效果正常法理或是在食物上運作狀況我想都是有一個很大的落差都是一個很大的落差"},{"start":6075.282,"end":6092.702,"text":"然後最後是就這立法的過程來說其實沒有我沒有那麼悲觀因為其實在我們的科技政策法出現之後其實有很多跟國外交流的機會那就目前來說我覺得科技政策法有還是比沒有"},{"start":6093.183,"end":6117.655,"text":"好啦至少我們在政法機關部分有一些明確的規範那除了爭議比較大的那個短期的位置跟監之外大部分是採取相對法跟保留那不管如何這個是比較符合一般民主國家的一些方式或許我們不盡美好所以我們今天要聚集在這邊但是我想這是一個好的開始或許我們可以再從這個基礎上再繼續前進那我的報告到這邊結束謝謝大家"},{"start":6121.683,"end":6135.752,"text":"謝謝顏榮教授接下來我們請國立中央大學教授溫祖德教授溫教授發表完高見議員我們是不是先休息五分鐘請開始"},{"start":6140.875,"end":6155.292,"text":"主席先進 各位委員大家好今天非常謝謝貴院及召委的邀請我主要是針對今天大院這邊所發的提綱來做發言"},{"start":6158.115,"end":6179.725,"text":"那我想把它調整一下順序第一個我想要討論這個153條之3就是非實體性侵入監視的這個部分的立法的討論首先就是針對這個非實體性侵入的這個監視它事實上侵害的基本權其實高於這個通訊監察"},{"start":6181.386,"end":6210.558,"text":"所以他要件因為他侵害的是個人生活私命隱私領域的保護所以他的要件應該是我們想像是重中之重才對嘛那比例原則等等可是我們其實看一下條文153條之一他這個首先第一個那個重罪原則的那個重罪可能就是沒有拉得很好就是應該到是最重本席五年以上呢還是最輕本席五年以上這個部分可能要"},{"start":6211.418,"end":6228.155,"text":"再思考一下那在第二個部分就是說比例原則比例原則就是說實話在這邊應該要呈現這個最後手段性原則這個應該要在立法裡面明定這個通保法裡面我們侵害這個秘密通訊自由都已經有這個最後手段性原則了"},{"start":6229.356,"end":6253.835,"text":"為何在這邊沒有把最後手段性原則放進去這個其實是匪夷所思那第三個部分就是大家可能沒有想過說大監聽這樣的東西也就是這個實體性非實體性侵入的全面性的監看跟錄影能想像說時間做這麼長嗎30天的時間所以30天的時間是不是說我們要思考一下說這個30天的時間應該要"},{"start":6259.119,"end":6275.304,"text":"這個嚴格限縮或者是修法的時候可以想到這個點那事實上我看了一下這個在司法院這邊他的這個細則的部分就是所謂的執行辦法執行辦法的"},{"start":6277.465,"end":6304.895,"text":"這個第二條的部分最後一項事實上是有做了部分的限縮啦但我覺得說還可以再更細緻一點就是說這個令狀記載向法院申請合法許可書這個申請的時候他所為到底要使用什麼樣的方式做大監看就是真正可以進入這個就是說非實體性的看到人家家裡的東西那第二個是說他要記載說他到底可以收集什麼資料這個資料"},{"start":6307.055,"end":6334.483,"text":"你可以預計你只要收集什麼資料我們不能說人家生活裡面關於這個我們知道這個生活中很多私密的資料有一些資料根本就跟本案調查無關的資料就連收集都應該就要排除而不是事後我們去用什麼這個153之8這個第三項規定說事後是可以刪除銷毀之應該是在大監看的時候這個資料就我們有一般生活的這個"},{"start":6335.783,"end":6352.81,"text":"隨便講如冊資料等等這些資料這個就在家裡的居家生活資料這個就連監看就不要監看就是說我連蒐集就應該要斷電然後再來就是說在執行目的我申請核發這個大監看這個票的時候"},{"start":6353.67,"end":6371.429,"text":"就應該要寫明說比如說如果這個申請端沒有自己寫明的話那法官這邊核發的時候就應該要明宰說如果已經達到執行目的時就應該要停止就應該要停止這個就是說非實體性侵入的全程的這個監看或錄影"},{"start":6373.19,"end":6392.844,"text":"這個部分就應該要記載在令狀上面在這許可書上那甚至我覺得在法條上就應該要明訂就是這個部分的資料就應該要停止了那另外法官應該要善用這個它雖然法條不叫做其中報告義務但是實際上就是"},{"start":6394.265,"end":6410.454,"text":"因為是153之3的這一個強制處分特殊強制處分所以法官應該要積極的去運用他這個命他提出報告義務說你在這實施期間因為我合30天的票的話那你在第10天你現在請你把你收集的資料"},{"start":6411.434,"end":6434.205,"text":"給我看就做進行其中監督義務我要知道說你到底收集了什麼資料所以在這個部分我覺得資料的部分這個限制跟取得有很重要的部分要去修另外就是那取得資料的部分是不是要准許取得這麼多還是呢"},{"start":6434.825,"end":6452.302,"text":"是准許取得這麼多然後事後刪除銷毀之一部分來講這就是未來的資料治理的部分其實是一塊重要的這個點那這個資料治理這個當然是另外一整套議題所以這個153之3的修法大致上是"},{"start":6453.163,"end":6468.481,"text":"對這個立法大致上提出上面的這個建議那這個第二個部分我是想要這個討論就是大家非常熱門的這個就是修法後呢這個司法警察對司法警察這個救濟到底我們這個法律規定"},{"start":6469.662,"end":6486.832,"text":"算不算有一個法律漏洞這個真的是當然我們都知道有權利必有救濟這個憲法法院或是說大法官解釋都已經做了非常多次解釋所以就是說有權利必有救濟是一個憲法原則那我們也沒有說去否定這個原則但是這個救濟到底是"},{"start":6487.452,"end":6507.278,"text":"是怎麼樣一個救濟就是說我是一個立即的救濟呢還是說我事後在通知之後尤其我們都知道我們這次通過153-153之戰全部都是秘密型偵查所以一定不是在做秘密型偵查的時候立刻就通知嘛一定是事後才通知那事後才通知這個通知之後才給予救濟這個救濟的實役"},{"start":6509.179,"end":6521.447,"text":"到底在哪裡 雖然我知道說這個可能我們可以說這是一個違法確認之訴但事實上這個違法確認之訴這個東西事實上我們用國賠就可以解決那我就提一個"},{"start":6523.601,"end":6539.507,"text":"美國他這邊在聯邦刑事法規則41條H就非常的貼實美國他們法學是非常務實的法學他就直接講說41條H就是在講特殊強行處分這邊的規範那他就是說要准許當事人能夠在審判中"},{"start":6540.327,"end":6561.978,"text":"提出證據排除法則就可以這是最重要的那麼也就是我們用這個二入法信仰就是證據使用禁止的部分這個一定要確保他而且讓他確保這個東西可以一直提到憲法法院這邊所以歷來的這些知名的案子Jones案 Carpenter案他們最後是上到憲法法院去來做這個救濟的"},{"start":6564.352,"end":6579.831,"text":"再加上剛剛其實有幾位先進有講到這個量能的部分其實是要思考到其實我們講一下就是說司法警察機關他做這個短期追蹤短期GPS追蹤因為我們現在最短期的部分我們這個我們沒有納入這個因為"},{"start":6581.192,"end":6610.038,"text":"立法理由有寫他是屬於侵害隱私權程度較輕他不是說沒有侵害隱私權但較輕嘛所以說就有點類似類比說我們現行進行的這個任意偵查就是說我們世大警察即便沒有用短期GPS但是他用短期跟監方式用人眼就肉眼跟監的方式那這個部分我們最高法院106年已經有一個判決出來啦他就認為這是任意偵查那個部分我們也沒有立案也沒有去登記也沒有去給通知當事人也沒有去救濟也沒有"},{"start":6610.998,"end":6637.692,"text":"那是不是說我這個司法警察就這個短期追蹤我就一定要設一個救濟呢在這邊設一個救濟這個可能就我們可以去做相對比就可以去思考這個部分啦這個我是以現行的本國的法學啦那再加上美國的法學來做思考那美國是非常務實他就是說我要救濟就是我一定要做到證據排除這個部分那才有意義如果沒有做到"},{"start":6638.713,"end":6664.094,"text":"這個沒有辦法做到證據排除證據使用禁止的話那你跟我都是空另外一個其實好像這個1983年有一個民權法案他們很多這個關於違法的不管司法警察機關或者是偵查機關或是法院有違法中他們有一個1983年的民權法案那這個民權法案全部都是提國家賠償那當然他們在那一套制度裡面有另外搭配就是譬如說司法官的豁免權那個"},{"start":6665.715,"end":6692.038,"text":"這是另外一套制度我們就不在這邊提那第三個部分因為時間的關係這個第三個部分其實我覺得還蠻重要就是以現行來講是不是有什麼新增的類型的強制處分或是說未來類型的強制處分我想從加密這個角度來思考就是說現在因為已經非常多這個加密措施了那真的樣的面對這麼多加密的措施不管是這個通訊的加密措施或者是說"},{"start":6692.979,"end":6709,"text":"尤其是譬如說像最近國內面臨的這個就是關鍵基礎設施的攻擊那很多呢這樣的攻擊事實上是犯罪者他是隱身在網路裡面換句話說他透過這個就是我想李老師最清楚這個"},{"start":6709.981,"end":6725.653,"text":"利用這個所謂洋蔥伺服器的方式把自己都隱身在這個犯罪世界裡面在網路世界裡面你也找不到他的人生之所在你找不到他的IP位置所以這個部分其實是恐怖的我們現在拉到這個層級是說討論這樣的一個東西是"},{"start":6729.135,"end":6756.78,"text":"並不是說我一定要主張說一定要來源端電信監察或者是所謂的這個國家植入程式到資訊設備裡面但是我們確實未來要思考就是說在幾種犯罪裡面是有需要的像關鍵基礎設施這種東西事實上是國安犯罪在國安犯罪主席任中旭再給我一分鐘時間在國安犯罪事實上是用得到的這個我想國安犯罪現在當然這個局勢這是可以思考的那"},{"start":6758.1,"end":6773.912,"text":"另外就是說這個情報收集是不是也要授權呢如果說你情報收集不授權所以情報就可以是做一個法治空窗嗎全面通通隨便情報收集就可以做國家植入間諜城市遠端搜索但是呢在刑事偵查呢不行"},{"start":6775.093,"end":6791.064,"text":"這個也很奇怪 刑事偵查很多情況是情報收集一線之隔就跨到了國安犯罪再來就是在暗網中的犯罪所以美國聯邦刑事訴訟規則在我講2016年就增訂了遠端搜索的規定了事實上很早"},{"start":6792.685,"end":6806.452,"text":"2017年德國我想這邊還有德國學者就增訂了大小木馬而且還有另外訂定國外木馬的規定2016年美國遠端搜索人家是用科技方式他就講說只要對方使用科技方式隱藏自己"},{"start":6807.012,"end":6826.047,"text":"位置之所在 這個位置之所在是包含我在網路世界的位置之所在特別是針對這個東西 因為他在修法理由就已經寫了他這個修法理由找了非常多學者討論了非常多次的諮詢會這個我時間超用 所以這個部分就沒有辦法再多報告我想謝謝委員 然後謝謝各位先進"},{"start":6831.761,"end":6848.391,"text":"好 謝謝我們溫教授最好可以把你的秘籍可以變成書面供大家來參考其實在休息之前短短的幾十秒我來跟大家做一個報告在立法院裡面的工坊"},{"start":6848.911,"end":6861.976,"text":"那常常都是非理性的當然有些工坊就涉及到整個政黨的一個利益你很難去做一個說理所以今天邀請各位學者專家來其實我有一個感慨其實在修法的過程裡面你們要大聲講你們要用力去講講到讓國會這些立法委員知道什麼叫做反省知道什麼叫做尊重專業然後會有火花"},{"start":6873.82,"end":6885.097,"text":"然後立法院可能修出來的法律就比較是不像啦還是謝謝大家那我們先休息一下我們等一下再繼續請今天的出席者來提供報告意見 謝謝"},{"start":7623.743,"end":7631.49,"text":"好我們繼續開會我們接下來請國立台北大學法律系教授李榮庚李教授"},{"start":7639.04,"end":7655.98,"text":"主席 再想各位先進 大家好那很高興今天能夠有這樣的一個機會來跟各位分享特殊強制處分它修法之後的一些我自己學習之後的一些心得那我先不按照 我就不按照提綱的順序我先講一個整體的一個概念就是說整體的一個問題就是說"},{"start":7657.321,"end":7671.949,"text":"我們目前的現在新增的這153之1到153之3真的沒有錯就是有定總比沒定好可是現在比較大的麻煩是定成這副德性它其實創造出來的問題可能比它解決的問題要多得不少譬如說舉個例子來說"},{"start":7674.371,"end":7700.15,"text":"比如說以第二個提綱第二個提綱第二裡面提到的那個現行的非實體侵入私隱私空間的監看監錄的處分類似的處分都有一個比較大的問題是他可能都都沒有去做整體的整個我們強制處分的法制的一個這個評估跟審查為什麼呢因為我們條文的153-3的規定是規定說他的規定並不是所有的並不是所有的非實體侵入處分"},{"start":7701.491,"end":7712.677,"text":"它的要件是規定成它的要件規定是非實體侵入的科技方法也就是說它綁著兩個要件第一個要件是非實體侵入第二個是科技方法可是問題在於說"},{"start":7714.389,"end":7740.451,"text":"如果我今天做的不是實體侵入的方法我今天使用的是實體侵入的科技方法那它就不在我們這個條文的規範裡面了比如說我用騙門的方式我騙你說我是要修瓦斯的我人進去了之後呢我把這個屋子裡面所有東西給錄下來那它就不在我們這個條文的控制當中"},{"start":7740.691,"end":7764.786,"text":"可是這個對於那個處所裡面的隱私的侵害跟非侵入性的比較起來其實是沒有差別的甚至是更嚴重的這是第一個問題第二個問題是這個條文也沒有規範到非實體侵入的非科技方法因為我們的條文的要件是綁死在科技方法裡面可是如果說我們使用的是非科技方法呢譬如說我使用的是像一般的手機的相機從窗外"},{"start":7765.526,"end":7786.198,"text":"拍攝到了屋內的情況那算不算是這個這個條文要規範的呢也不是好所以說我們的條文裡面我們沒有我們把我們限制了規範了很多的手段我們針對手段去做規範可是我們忽略掉了它侵害到的權利的類型是什麼好這是第一個我覺得有問題的地方第二個"},{"start":7789.168,"end":7804.982,"text":"這個條文的這個設計呢長得非常非常像另外一個條文就是通訊保障基金的法我們通保法也有針對這種私密空間內的隱私的保護可是通保法裡面規定的是規定說你不能夠在私人住宅裡面裝設錄音的竊聽的設備去聽那個空間內的聲音對話"},{"start":7810.688,"end":7825.109,"text":"這個條文規定的事情是可以使用非實體侵入的科技方式去監看監錄這個空間那這兩部法律放在一起就很怪了就是說我們使用一些科技方法的時候呢在屋子的外面可以看但是不能聽"},{"start":7826.371,"end":7854.423,"text":"後者是絕對禁止的連聽都不能聽前者是在某一些要件之下可以看可是都是發生在這個空間內的活動都是發生在這個空間內的隱私為什麼能看但是不能聽這在法治上也是非常非常難以理解的從比較法的角度上來看我到目前為止我沒有找到哪一個國家對於私人的住宅或是隱私空間是絕對禁止"},{"start":7855.523,"end":7873.454,"text":"監聽的這是我沒有看到哪個國家有這樣立法的我不是說人民的隱私不重要我不是這個意思我的意思是說如為什麼我們的條文是如此設計而且我們在同一部法律當中就在隔壁就在隔壁而已這部法律跟你講說可以這部法律跟你講不可以那這樣的一個設計我認為是有問題的好 再來"},{"start":7876.933,"end":7906.053,"text":"這個是第一個要提出來的第二個我們我們目前的專章當中是不是應該要有一些新的新的類型的偵查手段呢我的答案是絕對可以而且也絕對需要絕對需要絕對需要一些東西但是這種新我們新增的方式應該要有更整體的方式我們目前的153之一之二之三很明顯的看得出來的事情是他不是真他不是用所侵害的權利或是所獲取的資訊"},{"start":7907.033,"end":7931.289,"text":"來做規範之一、之二、之三很明顯的它都是針對手段就是說第一個我們用的事情是我要處理的事情是GPS的問題第二個條我們要處理的是我記憶體的問題第三個東西我要處理的是監看監聽的問題用非科技方法的監看監聽的問題可是這三種方式其實涉及到的權利類型是不大一樣的有一些是我的位置資訊我人在哪裡的問題第二個是有些東西是涉及到是我在這個空間當中我的隱私的問題"},{"start":7932.21,"end":7952.195,"text":"如果我們繼續使用的規範模式是針對所使用的手段的話那一定會發生如同前面剛剛幾位先進所說的我們會不斷的發生只要一旦發生一個新的偵查手段我們就跟你講說因為法律沒有規定所以我們不能做或者是說"},{"start":7953.427,"end":7982.432,"text":"有發生一個新的科技新的科技出現了然後我們就要開始炒說能用或不能用這樣子的一個立法方式其實是非常非常的不明智的為什麼呢因為這樣子的方式它就會出現前兩年當中一個非常非常在我們法律圈子裡面或實務圈子裡面非常非常有名的一個案子就是GPS追蹤器GPS追蹤器它一旦使用了之後法院就說這個東西不能用然後使用這個設備的人抓去關要賠錢所以法務部就通令說以後都不要用"},{"start":7983.496,"end":8002.173,"text":"可是當都不要用之後可能或許保障了人民隱私但犧牲掉的是什麼犧牲掉就是犯罪的偵查那其實這兩個東西它不應該是一個全有或全無的也就是說沒有法律了我們就不要用然後我們就來保障人權然後呢這個所有的犯罪的人就可以喊個開心至少我們就會有一段時間我們不會被跟監了這樣那個結果是有問題的所以我認為"},{"start":8008.137,"end":8034.567,"text":"我認為就科技偵查手段來說不管是在法條上面或是在法院的運作上面我認為應該要去有一個類似像美國一樣的思維就是去擴張或者去擴大去理解搜索跟扣押的概念讓它能夠因應到更多的新型態的強制處分手段或者是說考慮考慮我們以後我們在立法的時候我們要用權力侵害或是要用資訊的類型資訊的量資訊的取得"},{"start":8037.289,"end":8061.988,"text":"來規範我們的這個偵查機關的使用方式這是第一個我想要跟各位提出來的第二個是前面已經有幾位學者幾位專家都提到這個問題就是問題一的部分就是救濟的這件事情救濟的這件事情我們看我們如果我們看我們的刑訴法的我們刑訴法裡面最重要的一個救濟規定直接針對強制處分的救濟最重要的是規定在404跟416404跟416的規範模式裡面就是不斷的把"},{"start":8066.091,"end":8081.877,"text":"發生在前面的條文裡面可能影響到人民權利的強制處分全部把它灌到404跟416裡面就前面有搜索跟扣押404跟416就放搜索跟扣押前面有發環我們這邊就放發環前面有通訊監察我們就放通訊監察就一直放進去一直放進去"},{"start":8082.937,"end":8107.318,"text":"這樣子放進去有一個非常非常重要的一個原則就是我們希望透過盡量的把404跟416裡面放進去是想要達到一個目的就是有權力就要有救濟只要有權力侵害我們就要有救濟這個原則是一個重要的憲法原則沒有錯可是這個原則是不是代表我們就必須要在404跟416裡面納入所有的強制處分呢這個是要畫一個非常非常大的問號的為什麼"},{"start":8109.099,"end":8134.716,"text":"因為我們發動強制處分之後有幾種可能性第一個我們發動了之後可能根本沒有取得任何的證據就是我們忙了一個極末就是弄完了什麼都沒有我們可能取得了這個證據可是後來發現說證據根本沒有辦法起訴所以可能是取得了證據但是沒有起訴也可能是我們即便起訴了也有兩種可能性第一個就是我起訴了之後我沒有拿出這個證據來使用也有可能是我拿出這個證據來使用"},{"start":8136.717,"end":8155.35,"text":"針對那種根本沒有取得證據或是取得了之後根本沒有起訴或起訴了之後完全沒有提出這個證據作為證據使用的這個案件這些案件我們要不要需不需要單獨的去開一個東西叫做我讓你去看告跟准看告那這是一個問題為什麼因為我們讓他提出來之後目的到底是為了什麼"},{"start":8156.33,"end":8169.981,"text":"你讓他救濟到底是為了什麼我今天資訊被蒐集了我資料被取得了你跟我講說到最後其實我是沒有被起訴的然後你跟我講說我給你一個權利是我讓你去救濟你到底要救濟什麼東西呢"},{"start":8171.909,"end":8200.891,"text":"如果我們打到最後就是法院跟我講說好李榮庚你很倒楣你資料被蒐集了你是對的政府機關是錯的對我來說到底有什麼實意就是我覺得法院終於還我一個清白了這個我們證明這警察是錯的如果只是這個效果的話到底是為了什麼就是我們要這個樣子嗎那當然有人為什麼我認為這個是無聊的呢原因是因為你如果真的覺得你權力有問題的話我們是有國賠法的因為打國賠啊"},{"start":8201.952,"end":8222.829,"text":"去打國賓就好啦好 第二個第二個可能性是很多的學者會主張說或是說有些人看法是認為說沒有 這個很重要為什麼呢是因為如果我可以去打一個訴訟的話我確認這件事情是違法的我就可以請求那個執法機關把取得的資訊給銷毀掉好 這是一個重要的利益"},{"start":8223.82,"end":8238.826,"text":"可是問題來了那些資訊可能可能是涉及到其他的案件譬如說我針對A案警察因為A案的關係對我發動偵查取得了某些資料這個資料跟A案無關可是跟B案有關係"},{"start":8240.422,"end":8255.524,"text":"這個是我直接針對這個強制處分發動我直接去發動的時候AI裡面我去打了一個然後確認說這個手段是錯的然後如果我可以直接請求把它銷毀掉的話那現在問題來了那個資訊可能跟弊案有關係"},{"start":8256.505,"end":8282.685,"text":"可能跟B案是有關係的如果我在A案這邊打贏了B案的法官是永遠沒有機會可以審查這個資訊的取得是不是合法的這個資訊有沒有證據能力的他是永遠沒有機會的因為資料已經被銷毀掉了那很多人會感到說那法院說它是違法就是不能用了啊可是事情不是這樣講的為什麼呢是因為確認強制處分是否合法的法院跟本案的法院這邊"},{"start":8284.246,"end":8301.418,"text":"兩個法院之間是不會互相這個兩個法院之間是不彼此拘束的他們兩個之間不能夠彼此拘束B案的法院是有可能認為這個強行處分是合法的這個證據是能用的如果你在這邊就直接把它確定是違法的把它銷毀掉了那B案的法官很可能因為這樣的關係就無法使用"},{"start":8302.279,"end":8325.671,"text":"他認為合法取得而有證據能力的證據類似的設計其實在我們刑訴當中都是有的法院之間的判決不彼此拘束這個現象是在我們刑訴當中都會存在的我們如果直接在404跟46裡面直接把這些東西全部放進去然後加上資料的銷毀加上資料的這些規定的話他會影響到就是我們剛剛所說的那個另案的法院"},{"start":8326.833,"end":8335.744,"text":"對於證據取得或是證據能力的審查的一個可能性好 以上是我對於今天大院這邊提出來的幾個問題的一些想法那請供各位參考 謝謝"},{"start":8337.861,"end":8356.661,"text":"好 謝謝很好的觀點 這個都值得辯論三天三夜時間的因素也沒有辦法再繼續讓大家更詳細的去做論述 抱歉接下來我們請國內陽明交通大學科技法律教授林志傑教授"},{"start":8362.238,"end":8383.953,"text":"謝謝主席那麼各位在座的先進還有各位部會的長官還有在場的委員各位同仁大家早安大家好我覺得在歷經過去一年每次來這邊都是為了防禦各種我覺得很奇怪的法案跟擴權今天可以回歸到比較純粹的法律討論感覺非常的幸福所以謝謝立法院的邀請"},{"start":8385.673,"end":8409.545,"text":"其實當代是一個資訊的年代那與其說落入條文上面的要件爭執我想前面應該幾位的先進的發言我都非常的認同我想從比較大的一個觀點瞭看一下就是在現在我們到底應該要做怎樣的科技立法那剛好也是這幾年針對資訊的一些管制跟處理的研究心得"},{"start":8410.826,"end":8426.304,"text":"第一個就是當代其實是資訊的年代有資訊者有王道我前兩天剛好在一個醫療的機構的場合在談我說其實大家可能以為這個證券交易法是一個財經法其實它是一部資訊法"},{"start":8427.906,"end":8440.32,"text":"那為什麼我說它是一部資訊法呢各位可以想想看其實內線交易就是指你先知道了別人不知道的資訊操縱股價其實就是你散佈了錯誤的財經資訊財報不實其實就是你用不實的財務資訊欺騙了投資大眾"},{"start":8448.889,"end":8468.694,"text":"所以同樣回過來看我們刑事訴訟法跟偵查的手段因為資訊跟數位時代的來臨其實也面臨非常大的挑戰在拜讀完各個部會還有立法委員各位委員的提案以後我心裡面的感覺還是有一點點小的遺憾就是我覺得其實"},{"start":8471.16,"end":8492.178,"text":"我們目前的立法還是比較侷限於比如說單一比如說我們在談這個偵查手段我們就是做刑事訴訟法那我們在講科技偵查我們就去做一個科技偵查法我覺得可能可以做更多的盤點從資訊的蒐集使用跟保管來去看我們整個犯罪的狀況到底怎麼樣去因應數位時代的來臨"},{"start":8495.1,"end":8514.022,"text":"那在我的想法裡面大概來講就是為什麼今天我們要去看特殊的科技偵查的方式不外乎兩點第一個是它有可能造成人權的危害第二個它有可能造成警察執法的時候不管是在事前事中或事後的各種風險"},{"start":8515.584,"end":8542.359,"text":"那為什麼這樣講呢因為我覺得偵查作為其實是一個風險管理風險就是事件發生的機率乘以事件發生的損害所以沒有百分之百安全這件事那如果從風險來看我就會認為比較好的立法模式應該是給予比較大的彈性裁量空間但是一旦今天他有違法的情況你應該是要給予他比較嚴厲的處罰"},{"start":8544.571,"end":8564.854,"text":"那台灣的整個立法比較著重於事前的預防所以我們會預想到一百種可能的情況然後就把它全部放在要件裡那這會使得警察或者是司法人員或者是檢察官其實他在偵查的時候他是非常難有所作為那我們也往往會發生不管是剛剛溫老師或李老師或者是顏老師"},{"start":8565.635,"end":8577.35,"text":"都有提到就他很難去追上科技發展的速度所以我們大概要首先摒棄的是我要在一部法裡面把所有可能容認的狀況全部把它規範出來這樣的話我覺得這個科技偵查法應該會難產一百年"},{"start":8582.396,"end":8610.109,"text":"我覺得要先放下這樣子的一種期待跟想像那如果是這樣的話大概我們有幾種立法模式第一個當然就是專法比如說我們就立一部科技偵查法像現在所提出來的草案那我個人也是蠻贊成這樣子的但我必須說我看完法務部的草案我覺得法務部的可能是過去的幾種發生的狀況讓法務部變得非常的謹慎小心因為我昨天看完我覺得無人機好像也沒有"},{"start":8610.609,"end":8637.473,"text":"要規範下去然後這個種類感覺很少我不確定有沒有一種種類的方式是用比較抽象性的描述可以涵蓋比較多未來可能被包括進去的科學技術那這是我的一點建議那第二種立法模式當然就是刑事訴訟法這是我比較不建議的因為一旦放在刑訴裡面所有的犯罪都會調到這個刑事訴訟裡面去那不論犯罪的大小"},{"start":8637.913,"end":8646.048,"text":"那這就會有幾位老師提到的可能刑法的竊盜罪你有偵查作為那也會跑到這個條文裡你很難用幾個條文去涵蓋"},{"start":8647.629,"end":8675.403,"text":"這個科技偵查的面向那另外一種立法模式就是在各個特別的法裡面去定允許它的特殊作為比如說剛剛幾位先進都有提到的國家安全比如說我們可能就在國家安全法或者是我們可能在這個特殊的比如說我們在講加密貨幣的管理啦或者是證券交易啦或者是某一些特殊的犯罪我們覺得它那種形態太特別了就是特別到它必須要用一個特別法"},{"start":8675.763,"end":8696.586,"text":"那在這個特別法裡面他的偵查作為是不是給他比較特殊的偵查作為所以就算有一些不在刑訴裡面允許的作為不在科技偵查法裡面允許的作為在這個特別法裡面因為他有特殊的需求因為他本質上就是這樣那這也是當時在立通訊保障與監察法我一直覺得很遺憾的"},{"start":8697.006,"end":8716.688,"text":"因為比如說通訊保障與監察法它一直以罪的輕重來做處理它沒有考慮到罪的本質比如說線上賭博線上賭博它可能是一個很輕的罪問題是它就是個數位犯罪它的態樣就是一種數位犯罪你不讓它允許用數位偵查它就是不可能打"},{"start":8717.028,"end":8742.911,"text":"他就不可能偵查的所以雖然是一個輕罪但他的手法如果涉及數位的話他可能就是有數位作為的必要那這是為什麼我會建議用科技偵查法來處理所以我會覺得其實應該是立一些前提什麼樣的前提呢比如說剛剛幾位先進提到的若這個犯罪的本質上他就是已經屬於科技犯罪已經屬於數位犯罪"},{"start":8743.922,"end":8758.03,"text":"不管輕重你只要今天他涉及你不用數位的方式你無從啟動偵查或者是你就是沒辦法蒐證的你就得讓他用即使他的罪非常的輕微但是他是在線上做的"},{"start":8759.98,"end":8779.77,"text":"你可以想像你就沒有辦法蒐證像數位賭博這種東西你如果不讓他監聽我也很難想像你到底要怎麼蒐證所以有一些是涉及雖然他的罪的量刑是輕的但是他的本質跟他的手法是用科技的那是不是可以考慮在這個數位科技特殊手段偵查法一開始在定義"},{"start":8781.013,"end":8796.451,"text":"哪些犯罪會落入的時候除了刑度以外他罪的本質他犯罪的態樣可以放在裡面那再來就是那個寬嚴我們講說風險越高的他可能必須要監督或防範的越嚴格"},{"start":8797.864,"end":8815.624,"text":"那這個防範可以從哪些門檻第一個就是它發動的門檻比如說司法警察就可以發動或者是檢察官可以發動或者是一定要到法官才可以發動我可以用門檻來控制它所以損害越大 對人權損害越大的我們可能發動的門檻要越高"},{"start":8817.646,"end":8833.355,"text":"同時另外一個很可能是急迫或者是有一些特殊的情況那你的門檻雖然說他可能是很重的一個情況對人權有很大的侵害可是我考慮他如果一旦犯下去他的風險很大我們剛剛講他是風險是事件發生的機率"},{"start":8834.628,"end":8856.897,"text":"乘以事件發生的損害嘛所以一旦它今天發生的損害如果很大我的門檻是不是也可以略為降低所以我自己是覺得不用在前階段過於的僵化因為你那樣的僵化你其實是沒辦法發動增長但是後面要有非常嚴格的監督那我也非常同意剛剛李榮根老師提到的"},{"start":8857.85,"end":8877.506,"text":"就是那個資訊我剛剛講說所有的資訊不外乎收集使用跟保管我覺得所有最大的問題應該是你收集來著這種科技偵查的資訊你要怎麼樣第一個我們講一樣去收集第二個你要在哪裡使用所以我們剛剛講門檻的第二個就是排除你可能是前面提高很嚴重的門檻"},{"start":8878.066,"end":8896.116,"text":"第二個就是一旦他有違法你就不讓他當作證據這是另外一個掌控風險的方法所以你就可以變相的去約制警察你在做的時候你自己要衡量你不要濫權否則的話就算你找也是白找因為到最後司法會把你排除這個證據就是一個違法的證據你是不可以用的"},{"start":8896.776,"end":8919.365,"text":"所以前端可以用門檻的方式後端你可以用證據排除的方式當然後面你還可以科與他比如說司法刑事人員的某些這個責任他可能會有侵害秘密的責任因為他不構成這個阻缺違法事由或者是他可能會有國家賠償等等的問題所以其實去balance這個風險有非常多的方式"},{"start":8920.553,"end":8945.4,"text":"講了這麼多我的意思大家不用太執著於一開始就說一定要限制於怎樣怎樣的要件他其實可以透過事後的證據排除或者是事後的這個警員的責任或者是國家賠償的方法來去追究前端若違背法律去濫刑偵查或者是違背法律去行使資訊蒐集的人的一些責任這樣就可以達到一個動態的平衡"},{"start":8947.06,"end":8970.778,"text":"那最後要講的就是我覺得立法是一個很高的學問跟藝術我還是建議從這個資訊的蒐集使用跟保存重新去看這個法律那不用太執著於這個這個要件或者是限於某些情況要以犯罪的本質不好意思我把它結束要以犯罪的本質來確定何時我們應該要啟動科技的手法"},{"start":8971.158,"end":8995.568,"text":"那還是給法務部加油因為我覺得犯罪真的是讓大家追著跑那這個法已經我覺得延宕了很久我認為是有需要要通過的謝謝好 謝謝我們林志傑教授那個寶貴的意見那接下來我們是不是請國立清華大學科技法律研究所的連孟吉教授"},{"start":9001.796,"end":9018.153,"text":"主席現場的各位先進大家好我是清華大學科法所的蓮夢琪那今天很高興有這個機會來這裡跟大家分享一下我自己的幾點觀察因為其實這個議題有非常非常多可以談那之後我可能寫文章再發表"},{"start":9020.697,"end":9044.809,"text":"那直接針對三個問題喔第一個問題科技偵查實務運用司法審查救濟制度有沒有法規範的補充跟建議那其實很多的這個議題都放在那個救濟嘛所以像153之10的那件事情就是司法警察所做的這個所做的處分這個應該是要可以救濟的我講到這裡就好因為這個我會開花要講太多"},{"start":9045.209,"end":9068.241,"text":"好 那我要提的一點是說這一次的修法雖然我們把它定成第十一之一的特殊強制處分章但是其實其中有很多內容要跟其他原來的傳統強制處分尤其是搜索扣押一併考慮所以呢 這一次的153之8到10這三條並不是只有特殊強制處分或者是科技偵查才會碰到的問題像153之8這個是在規範說本案證據 另案證據的使用"},{"start":9072.643,"end":9100.607,"text":"這件事情其實要跟另案扣押這個規定一併檢討大家有沒有注意到我們另案扣押幾乎沒有限制反正有查到的通通都可以用而你如果認真去看我們現在這個新聞報導就會發現手機扣押到以後就會案外案不斷的開花最近就是這個藝人王姓藝人本來是在查他妨礙兵役結果手機裡面挖出來他還有這個搭車平台跟人家糾紛然後找黑道去打司機這個是一件"},{"start":9101.007,"end":9114.82,"text":"他另外還有一件是這個什麼詐欺去報案然後又有扯出這個警察有什麼妨礙個資問題所以另案扣押這個其實是要整個一起去檢討的你不能這個輕重失衡那或者像1539"},{"start":9116.021,"end":9131.872,"text":"我們這條規定叫做未執行刑事裁判除了另有規定以外呢你都可以用本章的規定來實施調查那就問一個問題我們今天有這個犯罪所得沒收那我現在要執行犯罪所得沒收我可不可以用傳統的搜索扣押去找被告的財產"},{"start":9133.448,"end":9150.154,"text":"應該要能可以吧所以這個應該不是只有限於說我執行刑事裁判只有用科技偵查應該不是這樣子所以這個八九十其實這三條都要跟整個其他的所有的原來強制處分一起來處理也因此我個人是非常不贊成定專法"},{"start":9151.474,"end":9167.945,"text":"就是這個就是放在刑事訴訟法因為你要跟所有的偵查處分一起來看尤其當你訂專法然後再碰到不同主管機關的時候那個根本就是會完全輕重失衡亂七八糟然後再來第二個實際的如果你訂在專法學校不教"},{"start":9169.111,"end":9189.771,"text":"國家考試不考法律人幾乎不會去看那這個你們實務就會更麻煩這是第一點那我今天想其實我對於這整個修法最最在乎的就是153之3現行這個所謂的非實體侵入這件事情那我們的立委就是各位你們涉題就已經叫做高度干擾個人生活領域了"},{"start":9190.071,"end":9207.486,"text":"所以我想這個應該對於住宅裡面的這些活動的這種設路尤其可以到30天這個高度干擾這個應該是大家一個想法了那這個所謂高度干擾到底對於我們今天在立法上這個是什麼意義呢那其實這個就是要講到"},{"start":9208.487,"end":9234.772,"text":"刑訴法規定偵查手段它其實就是一個層級化的規範或者也可以回應剛剛律師問說不曉得為什麼那個短期就是好像警察就可以做那我們這次其實153-1-2就是GPSM化車這個大概都是參考德國刑訴法的這一種所謂的層級化的規範那這個也不是德國法因為我們4434-443層級化法律保留本來就是這個概念你比較嚴重的當然用比較這個"},{"start":9236.452,"end":9259.126,"text":"嚴的要件比較輕的那你可能就輕的或可以授權命令所以本來這種層級化的概念就是我們443的概念那這個概念其實很簡單干預程度比較小就最下面那一種干預程度比較小的其實就用刑訴法的所謂概括偵查條款那它其實就是一個所謂各自收集的一般性法律規定這也回應到剛剛很多先進提到其實現在在談的都是資訊"},{"start":9259.966,"end":9281.461,"text":"科技偵查找到的東西都是資訊所以那各自收集一般性就是要用概括偵查條款然後你如果干預程度越大的這個就需要個別的授權依據而且影響程度越大要件才會越嚴格所以他這樣搭上來之後就會變成有些他是相對法官保留有些他可能檢警就可以做所以他才會長成現在這個樣子好"},{"start":9284.929,"end":9304.915,"text":"那我們來看一下 如果我剛剛講的這個就是這個層級化的概念大家可以接受的話你把今天153之3去跟德國法的規範一對比就會很清楚發現我們153之3真的是很奇怪的一個規定那我講說在德國他分住宅內住宅外 然後監聽跟監看"},{"start":9306.816,"end":9324.173,"text":"為什麼會用這個住宅內外來區分首先先講不應該我也贊成李老師講的不應該用科技的手段不是我們今天所有政策處分其實它是一個干預基本權我看的其實是基本權不是在看你是什麼在房子裡面房子外面那我都不重要反正我看的是你干預到什麼"},{"start":9324.773,"end":9347.38,"text":"那德國為什麼會用住宅內外來區分是因為他們的基本法13條明確的規定住宅就是要特別特別保護不能侵犯我想這個可能類似英國法的那個家是每個人的城堡就是我最後的安全港所以我家裡面就是我要最最最最到保護的那個概念好那我們先看德國的這一個監聽的部分"},{"start":9348.54,"end":9374.631,"text":"監聽的部分在左下角住宅外面非公開談話的監聽這個要件他們其實是類似電子通訊監察就是我們的類似通訊監察的那個要件所以他是要重罪跟法官保留那你如果是住宅內住宅裡面談話的監聽這個在德國是100C那這個其實他們在1998年訂的時候其實德國基本法有修就是先修憲的"},{"start":9375.231,"end":9389.905,"text":"憲法有修了加了三到六項然後把那個憲法的要求放到100C那你可以看到住宅內監聽是比住宅外還要嚴格的那還要嚴格的意思是它的重就又要特別特別的重"},{"start":9390.546,"end":9410.544,"text":"第二點他叫做加重法官保留一般法官保留是一個法官就可以加重法官保留他必須是幫地方法院合議庭三個法官才可以然後如果是擊破權限他是合議庭的審判長才可以做所以這個是其實你可以看到100C住宅裡面要監聽就要非常非常嚴格的要件"},{"start":9411.284,"end":9438.489,"text":"那我們看到監看監錄這件事情在住宅以外的你一些活動那這種監看監錄其實他的要件就會比較低就是右下角的那個德國100H第一項的第一款那這個要件其實就是我們這一次1531參考的那個短期長期的概念所以呢他的罪名大概是中度以上就可以然後短期就是那個連續24小時或兩天以下檢察官跟警察就可以做"},{"start":9439.81,"end":9456.39,"text":"長期超過的你才要法官保留那至於如果在住宅裡面的活動的這些監看監錄在德國是不允許的完全不允許因為他們覺得這個干預太大太大了就不能接受是不允許的"},{"start":9457.751,"end":9486.801,"text":"那如果你看到德國的這樣他其實是一個很有秩序的就你從右下角要件是最寬的然後過來住宅外的這個監聽嚴格一些再往上住宅內的監聽這是最嚴格那到最右上角干預程度最大他們根本是不允許的所以他其實是一個有邏輯或層次概念的那你這樣對比過來台灣就會很奇怪首先先講一樣台灣"},{"start":9488.393,"end":9512.356,"text":"住宅外的監聽左下角這件事情我在住宅以外非公開談話的監聽這個因為我們台灣通保法的通訊是包括言論跟談話的就不是只有我拿電話起來而已我一般的言論談話就在通保法裡頭所以呢住宅外的監聽我們跟德國一樣的要件就是類似這個通訊監察你要重罪法官保留"},{"start":9513.197,"end":9530.218,"text":"往上住宅內的監聽這個呢就是我們的通保法剛剛李榮根老師有提到我們通保法13條第一項但書的規定叫做不得於私人住宅裝置監察器材條文長這樣那我的問題也是啊"},{"start":9530.819,"end":9549.807,"text":"我沒有在你私人住宅裝,我今天就人進去,警察進去或找個線民裝個那個秘錄器,我進去酒店,進去什麼KTV,進去你家,我這樣錄或者是我就弄一支無人機飛,或者是我在外面我用那個集音器等等,那請讓我把它講完,等等,那這個到底可不可以"},{"start":9551.528,"end":9567.885,"text":"有些學者看法會覺得因為有13G單數我們根本不允許住在內監聽有些學者會覺得沒有啊他只是說不能在裡面裝我活動的進去可能可以好那如果我們即時採可以的看法他的要件也應該是通保法的要件"},{"start":9568.766,"end":9589.085,"text":"而這一次的153之3住宅內的監看監錄就是他明明是最高最高最高或像溫老師講要重中之重的要件結果他竟然來一個最重本刑五年以下什麼是最重本刑五年以下刑法的裡面竊盜侵占詐欺背信全部都是五年以下"},{"start":9590.206,"end":9615.597,"text":"最重本性跟最輕本性差一個字差很多所以這個其實幾乎是包含所有輕的犯罪怎麼會有這麼要件這麼輕而可以做這麼嚴重的行為這是非常不能接受的所以如果我們還沒有修法之前是非常的期待法院可以很嚴格的審查然後右下角那件事情是一個問號就是那我們住宅外面的言論談話可不可以去"},{"start":9616.677,"end":9645.244,"text":"錄影這件事情會打一個問號那我現在要用這個表格講的意思是說這裡面不可以有空白不可以有不知道可不可以因為這所有的行為太陽都會如果他沒有法律授權依據警察做了他就會變成是刑法315之一的那個妨礙秘密罪的問題所以這個裡面所有授權都要有那第三個就是否同意擴增好我只講一件事情最下面那個"},{"start":9646.224,"end":9667.177,"text":"一定一定要訂一個概括偵查條款就是所謂的各自收集一般性的法律規定因為我們目前刑訴228 229還有學者認為那個不是授權依據如果他不是授權依據的話同時也回應到未來可能還有很多會一再一再出現的新型態的一些什麼科技障礙手段你一定要有這一條"},{"start":9667.777,"end":9688.712,"text":"至少讓警察有一個授權依據他去做的時候不會被什麼法官突然跑出來說 欸你這個違反什麼 他會違法所以 蓋花針塔疗館這個是一定要頂的那其他的話呢 就是一樣按照那個層級上去那車牌辨識這件事情如果有興趣各位可以看我的文章車牌辨識大概是美國跟德國決單兩分的一個"},{"start":9692.575,"end":9717.213,"text":"這個偵查的手段就是簡單講美國法認為因為他是合理隱私期待車子車牌在路上跑沒有合理隱私期待這個沒有干預權利德國認為有因為你從個資的角度個資跟合理隱私期待沒有關係你只要是牽涉到個人的資訊全部都要有法律保留所以這個可能是未來如果要定的時候必須要去思考一下的這個問題好那我就報告到這裡謝謝"},{"start":9720.236,"end":9731.81,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝我們連教授精闢的一個觀點那我補充介紹 還有到現場的我們是 吳昭偉 中線委員"},{"start":9733.806,"end":9753.112,"text":"接下來我們也請法務部或者行政警察局好好挑戰一下我覺得這是很好的事情來了公聽學者專家提出他們的看法食物界你們有認為說哪一些是有一點點覺得說跟"},{"start":9756.613,"end":9783.569,"text":"跟實際上差距會比較大的你們也都可以提出來啊你們也因為這部法令畢竟是到最後是你們要用嘛那學者專家他提出他的一些看法那連我們都會覺得這個條文怎麼擬啊我都覺得頭痛所以大家互相切磋一下是好事那接下來是不是請我們陳崇源大律師"},{"start":9789.793,"end":9810.748,"text":"主席 各位在場先進與會計官代表 大家好很榮幸來參加這個研討會這個主題其實也先前經過很多次研討會的討論我會針對特別是提竿的三個重點來跟大家做一個簡單的報告"},{"start":9813.957,"end":9832.595,"text":"但是在一開始之前,其實我們立法,法律就是一個規則事實上它就是一個標準那我這次的重點會著重在我們其實就是把我們現行台灣不管是我們現行法律,大法官、憲法法庭所揭示的標準"},{"start":9833.513,"end":9852.086,"text":"我們就是把它貫徹而已只是在一般的情況適用到可能有涉及到一些科技手段的情況但我們的標準都應該一樣那特別是立法院它作為一個立法機關它針對應該要有法律規定的地方"},{"start":9853.027,"end":9864.152,"text":"在這個議題之下事實上就是既有標準的貫徹我認為這是個重點那如果把這個重點也許都可以回應到三個提綱我們可以用這個標準來看"},{"start":9867.703,"end":9887.676,"text":"針對去年所修正的特殊強制處分那這邊我們要肯定的因為要做科技的干預措施需要法律保留的原則的遵照跟法源的授權依據那這邊我們認為主管機關司法院他第一個有立法那第二個"},{"start":9888.536,"end":9917.617,"text":"很可惜的規定在刑事訴訟法而且我知道是很有效率的規定在刑事訴訟法這個都是要予以非常大的肯定那當然這個是一個開始因為還有很多的強制處分的措施事實上還應該要建構因為沒有沒有法源依據你就是不能做這是一個那接下來我們針對三個提綱第一個就是針對特別是"},{"start":9920.097,"end":9940.359,"text":"救濟部分那救濟部分剛剛很多先進也已經提到特別是針對警察他所做的相關的科技處分他能不能救濟我們回歸到最基本的原則有權利就有救濟那如果不能救濟那不叫權利或者是那個權利是"},{"start":9941.32,"end":9962.513,"text":"空言它不是真正的可以被有效實行的權利那這邊自動的也因為權利才能救濟所以當有一些本質上它還不是屬於權利的這種情況那自然概念上就會排除不會進入到救濟的這個門檻那當然有很多"},{"start":9963.533,"end":9991.485,"text":"先進也已經肯定這個應該有救濟那當然也有一些考量到負擔等等的部分那我們就看歐洲人權法院歐洲人權法院他要受理許多國家歐洲人權公約國的各個案件來那他們負擔也很重那我看到他們的宣言就是我們負擔很重但是這個權利就要保障我們要想辦法克服而不是因為負擔那我們就不救濟了"},{"start":9992.625,"end":10020.813,"text":"那我們那些權利規定的是假的嗎特別是權利被損害了我們應該要彌補它這是一個我們要去面對的情況另外的可能是造成司法機關的負擔這個也是很重要但兩個權衡之下到底是不要造成負擔還是一個應該要補救的權利該要去救濟它哪一個比較重要這是權衡的問題那特別是"},{"start":10022.17,"end":10040.005,"text":"事實上我們在賦予權力救濟的一個標準的時候有些時候我們過度擔心我們舉個例子那時候185之三酒駕剛新增的時候那一開始也會有很多爭議有新法的時候關於酒測啊那到底什麼標準一堆的爭議一定會有一個動盪"},{"start":10041.266,"end":10070.493,"text":"但是救濟它一個很重要的就是我要確立救濟的意思就是向法院針對這個爭議的事件由法院來表示意見事實上它就是貫徹我們所規定的法律它是有一般的適用效力那一開始會動盪當法院對個別的情況清楚表示意見而且確認它是可以用的時候後面你說酒駕再去增值那個酒測儀器等等這些現在完全看不到了"},{"start":10071.253,"end":10083.969,"text":"所以那個動盪那是一個過程之後標準明確事實上那個救濟案件自然會大幅減少最重要的是有權力就有救濟這就是我們的標準在這裡也應該一樣的貫徹沒有什麼兩樣更何況說"},{"start":10088.578,"end":10114.237,"text":"在救濟的部分 那我們用行政法來看行政法 行政處分都可以救濟而刑事的相關的干預是更加的嚴重結果卻不能救濟那這個跟法的一致性 跟舉親民眾這個都是恐怕是有違背的這是第一點 所以救濟那剩下的是 救濟應該是放在這一個十章之一還是回到404或416"},{"start":10116.999,"end":10136.43,"text":"416可能會更一般性一點,我有看到有委員的法案也有參照但是賦予就業途徑,而且這是一個憲法等級的要求憲法等級的要求,也就是說你立法如果沒有規定恐怕你是抵觸憲法的這不是立法者可以去擅自的加以限制的"},{"start":10141.366,"end":10161.469,"text":"剛好在座的那個連教授他有翻譯德國刑事訴訟法那也有跟其他教授有合作的那這邊已經有德國刑事訴訟法101條他有特別針對這一些比較科技性的強制處分他有賦予他一般性的特別的一個救濟規範那這個就可以去參考那"},{"start":10163.737,"end":10174.785,"text":"針對第二點監看的部分特別是153的部分那這邊我們要特別強調其實我們的標準我們看憲法法院的裁判其實重點就是"},{"start":10175.939,"end":10198.446,"text":"重點不是科技手段,其實重點是你影響的權利我們判斷的、干預的都是你影響到哪一種基本權以及你干預的密度是什麼重點反而不是科技手段,只是科技手段有些新穎的情況我們把同樣對基本權保護的標準要把它貫徹下來,我們舉個例子以一個人、一個球棒"},{"start":10201.007,"end":10223.523,"text":"刑法要特別說對囚棒要怎麼樣針對他特別規定還是這個囚棒可以去打死人他也可以去恐嚇他也可以單純用其他敲壞物品的方式但重點是你侵害的權利是什麼在相關科技偵查一樣重點是你干預了哪一個基本權包含"},{"start":10224.063,"end":10242.81,"text":"可能有個資可能有個人資訊自主決定權這是都確定的以及他干預的密度所以從153之3來看他恐怕就是混淆了因為這是一個非常嚴重的權力干預但是他卻用很低度的門檻153的部分是這樣"},{"start":10246.325,"end":10265.395,"text":"而且我們對照德國法來看,這個我有做過一個表在另外一個研討會德國法他們對於科技相關的干預,他們可以很自豪說我們基本上都有賦予授權的他們不只小木馬、大木馬、間梯、線上搜索、市上都有"},{"start":10266.255,"end":10288.246,"text":"但是很有趣的,他們就是沒有我們類似153之3的這一種干預類型那為什麼?到底或許就是如同剛剛所述的那最後的一點,要不要同意擴增當然還有很多,其實包含資料比對,我們還有很多要做但一個最重要的,這也是我們現行標準的貫徹就是設備端的通訊監察"},{"start":10291.847,"end":10319.682,"text":"簡單的來說 我們允許通訊監察監聽嘛 因為販毒啊 重大的犯罪 詐團我們允許他監聽 因為才能得到一個重要的資訊但是沒有特別端通訊監察 它代表什麼意思代表當他通訊的時候 改用一個有加密的通訊軟體我們就放棄了 不再對你通訊監察了犯罪都一樣 其他都一樣只是你用的通訊軟體有加密 我們就放棄了"},{"start":10320.402,"end":10336.628,"text":"那請問我們現在大部分的已經不太可能立法院還會打電話來但大部分可能用LINE或其他的通訊軟件我們已經不太用手機了但是我們既然在這裡就放棄了我只要在這邊舉一個例子"},{"start":10338.373,"end":10361.165,"text":"炸團我們說設備端也有稱叫小木馬那炸團現在有很多一個點擊的系統你只要點一個連結你就被安了木馬他就得到你的資料他可以騙取你他們可以暢所無主的去實行他們的犯罪透過木馬的程式但等到你要去偵查他的時候國家"},{"start":10362.285,"end":10390.418,"text":"他卻完全只因為那個名目叫小木馬完全的禁止對他實行通獄監察進而錯失可以偵查的良機我們推完到結果,結果我們保護了誰?我們就保護這些犯罪者的基本權但那些被這些詐團影響的我們單方面的對國家的設限更何況這樣的一個干預的類型我們用比較法來看是"},{"start":10391.198,"end":10401.926,"text":"大家被允許的那至於技術面的問題我想以台灣現在科技大國還要說技術面我們跟不上我想恐怕是跟現實脫節的所以"},{"start":10404.878,"end":10423.187,"text":"我簡單聚焦在這幾點 那我們立法院做一個我們最重要的 尤其是在這邊我認為針對這個主題 我們標準其實沒有不同 都一樣那這邊就期待我們立法主公把這個標準貫徹保障我們人民該要被保護的基本權 以上 謝謝"},{"start":10426.549,"end":10451.798,"text":"好 謝謝我們重重研大律師今天所有專家學者的發言都已經完畢了其實今天這麼硬的議題你看我主席坐在這個地方我是聽得如癡如醉但接下來我們也要請機關代表來做一個發言但是我們也是不是要請就書面資料以外的部分"},{"start":10452.598,"end":10465.613,"text":"來做說明就好那我們除了請法務部跟司法人代表來發言以外等一下我也會逐一來詢問列席的各個機關有沒有需要來再做補充說明尤其是這個"},{"start":10467.896,"end":10481.791,"text":"這個行政警察局這個部分可能要準備一下實務上可能會跟這個學界的看法做法上也有不同的一個地方尤其是這個法在修的時候其實當初講的叫做打詐釋法"},{"start":10483.172,"end":10510.112,"text":"打詐釋法那針對的可能早遠的部分會有所不同那我們也聽到學者專家一直在示警其實我們在審理的過程裡面各位去看看我們每一場在修法的過程裡面這一些我也都很如實的去傳達各位的一個意見那我們現在是不是先請我們法務部政務次長徐徐祥徐次長"},{"start":10523.986,"end":10536.675,"text":"主席各位先進先生女士大家早安我想奉主席指示那今天我們書面報告以外的部分來說明不過有一部分還是會引到我們書面報告我簡單的講"},{"start":10538.897,"end":10567.86,"text":"那各位可能第一個關心的可能會涉及到我們這一個科技偵查以後呢相關的資料它的保存管理銷毀陳報通知救濟監督跟其他監管的程序的細節跟技術性的事項我想這一個辦法執行辦法既然已經通過了我們當然會督促所屬一定要遵照相關的法律規定來執行我想這個我們會盡監督之責那第二個就是有關於"},{"start":10568.7,"end":10594.449,"text":"各位也可能認為說救濟途徑司法警察在實行強制處分以後救濟途徑在立法上是不是有疏漏那這一個部分的話本部也是認為要貫徹有權力藉由救濟的憲法的法理那本部也認為要以制定相對應的救濟途徑以保障權力那這一個部分要如何修訂的話本部尊重司法院跟大院的職權行使"},{"start":10595.549,"end":10617.53,"text":"那再來就是有關於在執行153-3這個部分我想就大概今天我們的學者很多都集中在這裡了我稍微解釋一下這種非實體侵入性剛才有人講到說是不是可以拍到它爐側的一個畫面我想各位多慮我們現在科技的設備大概還沒有辦法這麼進步"},{"start":10619.331,"end":10644.639,"text":"這裡想像得到的大概都是高倍的我們在偵查實物就是高倍的一個攝影器材或者是熱顯相儀在我們之前偵辦的一個遠舊被控制的這些被利用為炸擊人頭的這些人我們用的就是熱顯相儀我們只是能知道他被關押在這個地方我們是要把他救出來如此只是確定有人在這個地方"},{"start":10645.799,"end":10670.458,"text":"並沒有辦法監看他在裡面所做的一些私密的行為所以各位可能好像把它解各位有些教授可能把它解讀說我們在監看他在屋內的一個行動我想這個是不是在實際上的運作上可能會有一點落差那至於在裡面的裝什麼監聽監看這些都是不是法律上所許可的我想這個部分的話並不會在裡面"},{"start":10673.76,"end":10690.732,"text":"如果是要錄音的話他當然就要根據通保法的相關規定所以針對15343他所做的就是一個非實體侵入性的方式來進行調查而不是一種監看我想這個是在實務上運作上應該是這樣的認知"},{"start":10692.193,"end":10715.664,"text":"那我們這一個科技偵查也是依照層級化的法律架構那不同的侵害的程度我們會有不同的法律的規定那當然剛才學者也有特別提到說這個最重本刑五年以上我想這個我們會提醒就是在特殊的詐欺章是一年以上七年以下"},{"start":10716.164,"end":10744.046,"text":"那這些犯罪的話可能就會被排除掉如果你用罪經本刑五年以上就會把他排除掉了我非常贊成林志杰老師所講的你要准許一個科技偵查的作為不要看法定刑你這法定刑一定下去了你綁住了不是只有綁住司法警察你也綁住法官大家沒有轉圜的空間你這樣子的話在偵查作為一定會遇到阻力"},{"start":10744.887,"end":10755.632,"text":"沒辦法做 包括依法我不能准你 那司法警察想救人也沒辦法因為特殊詐欺的339之四 他這一個多重的一個詐騙的手法他把人關押 我們沒有辦法判斷他會不會符合詐毀條例的33條的 34條的規定因為到33條的話 要到金額 你才會變成3年10年"},{"start":10769.398,"end":10786.73,"text":"那個變成說三年十年或五年到十二年也要到那麼重你又要證明它是集團性又要證明它用科技的你要證明到這些的程度的話會造成執法上非常非常的困難所以我認為說重點不在於"},{"start":10789.051,"end":10813.809,"text":"最重本刑五年以上這幾個字而在於罪職那我們現在法官保留啊你把說相關的情境報告法官法官自然就會判斷我同不同意你們用科技偵查的手段來執行這一項的犯罪偵查我想重點已經有法官保留而不應該用這個刑度來綁住所有的人我想這個立法上是不需要這樣子的"},{"start":10815.731,"end":10838.68,"text":"那我相信在特殊強制處分的執行辦法裡面第二條第一項我們已經詳細的規定運用科技方法的一個性質功能效果施行的目的還有犯罪的刑度還有案件情節等等這些都是將來都會提供給法官作為審查的一個依據那剛才也講到救濟我想救濟"},{"start":10839.92,"end":10855.137,"text":"當然講到證據排除的原則前面有法官保留來審查中間有當事人尤其是律師可以主張證據排除那最後呢如果有損害還可以申請國家賠償或民事的損害賠償我想這樣的制度的設計"},{"start":10856.82,"end":10882.702,"text":"到目前為止應該是沒有什麼問題那我也給各位我在書面資料也特別有提到那執行到114年24號為止153-1是44件那核准是12件那153-2呢是188核准177那153-3即時申請素材8件各位最關心的就是這個非侵入的其實到目前只有8件"},{"start":10883.823,"end":10911.759,"text":"我們的司法警察是非常的慎重在執行這一項的一個申請那法官也准了七件法官也是非常的慎重在執行所以有些有些的擔心其實在現實執行上並沒有發生那是不是剛才有學者也提到特殊遠端就是遠端監控設備這個我們其實都評估過但是我講這個教授可能那個"},{"start":10913.099,"end":10937.455,"text":"可能會覺得說你這個不是理由齁 這個是陳教授 陳律師剛才有提到不是理由 我們要克服科技上的困難因為遠端目前我們沒有辦法克服它會傷及一些不是我們監看的對象那我想這是我們努力的目標 我們一定要去克服我們要克服 因為這個我知道在國外的立法律裡面它們事實上保管保留是可以做的 是可以做的齁"},{"start":10938.115,"end":10960.621,"text":"那我們這個部分我們會再繼續的來研究我想這個我們不會放棄那我想再來對於說有沒有新的偵查的一個作為要增加的那這個部分的話我們是開放性的我們司法警察在執行職務的時候如果有認為哪一個偵查手段是必須要有的我們一定會全力支持"},{"start":10961.241,"end":10975.735,"text":"那剛才我有些教授也提到說就是概括性的規定我也非常的贊成我們回去研究因為我們都一直說科技日新夜異那我們如果今天沒有一個比較概括的條款來保護我們的司法警察的話"},{"start":10977.011,"end":11001.522,"text":"一定會掛一落萬因為這科技的變化太大那我非常非常的贊成我們有一個比較概括性的一個條款那這個條款是用來保護那個所有的司法警察在執法的時候有一個依據那也提供給法官一個審查的機會那這樣子的話我們的司法警察在執行這個偵查作為的時候不會有違法之虞我想這是我們的責任那我就簡單先報告這裡 謝謝"},{"start":11005.506,"end":11017.651,"text":"好 謝謝我們這個次長很正面的回應也算很精彩那接下來請我們司法院刑事廳副廳長陳信齊副廳長中憲委員等一下不要因為我看你沒登記"},{"start":11036.588,"end":11063.764,"text":"主席各位委員各位專家學者先進大家好我們本次奉邀前來列席報告深感榮幸剛剛聆聽各方的見解其實收穫也蠻大的就本次的公聽會司法院的意見就想如書面所載我這邊就不再贅述就簡單補充如下第一點就是說就議題一的部分也就是說針對刑事刑訴特殊強制處分的救濟的部分"},{"start":11064.444,"end":11080.098,"text":"尤其是關於刑訴第153條之一司法警察短期追蹤的救濟部分其實因為先進國家本與他不同的背景他各自有不同的立法力我們剛剛聆聽在場專家學者其實意見也都不太一樣"},{"start":11082.16,"end":11103.497,"text":"不過不管如何本院都會加以參考我們的一個原則就是說在我們現有制度的基礎之下我們去兼顧司法救濟的有效性司法資源的有限性我們繼續研議評估最為適宜的做法我們目前是持比較開放的態度第二點就是就議題二的部分"},{"start":11104.218,"end":11123.664,"text":"那針對這個非實體侵入隱私空間的監看監錄部分那其實依照法律的規定本來就是應該依照相當理由或者是有事實主任具有關聯性來做審查那規範上當然也是一定要受到比例原則的拘束這是無庸代言的"},{"start":11124.684,"end":11153.051,"text":"我們當初在立法規範上也是考量到說他對於基本權的侵害程度比較高相對於153之1或153之2所以我們在法制上也定有一定重罪的補充的原則補充的要件我想已經有相當的審查規範標準在裡面不過如果認為說不管是專家學者或者是大院這邊認為說還需要在體系完備性上有修法的需求"},{"start":11153.891,"end":11176.522,"text":"那我們也都尊重立法院這邊的立法形成空間那第三點就議題三的部分是不是要擴增新型態的這個科增手段部分那例如一般我們常提到的這個設備端的通訊監察部分那或者是剛剛有專家學者提到的這個所謂的遠端搜索或網路空間的電池記錄的提供等等的部分"},{"start":11177.322,"end":11202.132,"text":"那我想這個因為科技日新月異那如果我們現在都是用所謂的這個強制手段做立法規範的話那這部分如果犯罪偵查機關或犯罪偵查輔助機關如果有這樣的一個偵辦業務的需求那司法院當然是尊重這些相關機關在符合偵查所需跟基本權保障的這個前提之下所謂的政策規劃"},{"start":11203.433,"end":11219.988,"text":"不過我們這邊也是建議說其實為了為求完整的規範因為其實一個科技偵查的相關處分的規範其實如果單單只是規定在刑事訴訟法其實我們還是一直覺得說有不足夠的地方"},{"start":11220.689,"end":11246.422,"text":"那如果為了為求完組的規範例如申請程序事後通知救濟程序證據能力行事責任民事賠償責任取得資料的使用保存銷毀行政機關的協助義務或者是法院甚至國會的監督等等我們認為說還是疑於通保法或者是說其他的特別法與民定以達法規範的一致性那以上補充謝謝"},{"start":11248.786,"end":11260.516,"text":"好 謝謝我們司法院那陳副廳長那接下來我們對來 我們現在請還要先請行政機關我先請各個機關我們來詢問一下各個機關今天來出席我們也都要來聽聽大家寶貴的一個意見因為給"},{"start":11272.806,"end":11295.082,"text":"這個在司法法治委員會裡面透過公聽會的方式不管是供訪也好或者說這個激盪也好這個都對於立法院是很好的一個提醒尤其在修法的涉及到全國人民尤其是人權保障的部分接下來我先詢問一下我們國防部法律事務司這邊是不是有什麼意見好那我們數位發展部張處長有沒有意見"},{"start":11302.076,"end":11326.717,"text":"好 那我們國家通訊傳播委員會法律事務處我們蔡專委海洋委員會海巡署家 有沒有好 我們個人資料保護委員會籌備處這邊張組長有沒有意見可是接下來我很想來請我們內政部警政署刑事警察局林主任家挑戰一下 好不好"},{"start":11332.011,"end":11356.553,"text":"你怎麼敢吐槽沒有吐槽 感謝立法院在去年通過刑法特殊強制處分首先要說明一下警察是執法人員本來就應該要依照法令來執行法律那科技偵查或者是現在的刑法特殊強制處分其實都是執法人員針對犯罪偵查"},{"start":11357.594,"end":11385.632,"text":"提出來我們要的偵查手段的法律授權那當然去年通過之後我們在法案審查過程當中很重要的就是立法院這邊要求警察機關應該要做好各項的管制作為例如申請核准通知銷毀那刑事警察局也有建制相關的系統來做這件事情所以我們都有做一些管制的作為"},{"start":11386.713,"end":11404.207,"text":"那前面有提到第一個議題就是說在救濟的方面那我們這邊要說明一下就是153-1提出來說在24小時內或者是連續不得超過兩日讓授權警察機關可以來做實施"},{"start":11405.748,"end":11426.104,"text":"確實是我們在偵查的事務上面有這樣的需求因為要裝GPS並不一定我申請到就一定能夠裝得成所以當初會提出這樣的需求的時候是因為可能在跟監或者是在犯罪偵查過程當中我們發現了犯罪的目標的時候能夠讓我們先"},{"start":11428.105,"end":11452.131,"text":"實施這樣子的GPS的裝設那在事後再申請檢察官跟法官的許可所以其實這是在犯罪實施的過程當中希望可以針對實務的需求來授權警察有一個比較彈性的實施但是也跟大家報告我們剛才前面有講到我們有做管制實務上面目前並沒有警察依職權來實施"},{"start":11453.971,"end":11468.157,"text":"都是經過法院申請許可書之後才來做裝設GPS那我們現在目前從去年的7月通過之後8月一直到今年的2月總共7個月期間我們申請了34件核准了32件"},{"start":11469.938,"end":11494.856,"text":"那這個數量是佔第二名佔最多的是MR車也就是153之二我們申請了151件核准了139件那MR車為什麼會比較需要因為他會是可能是發動搜索的前置作業當我們要搜索一個地點的時候可能MR車是一個非常關鍵要讓我們明確我們要搜索的地點"},{"start":11495.396,"end":11509.289,"text":"那也把目標縮小到一定的範圍之內第三個就是剛才一直在討論的就是153之3那剛才法務部的次長跟我們的數字有一點點落差可能是統計時間的關係警察機關這邊申請的"},{"start":11512.372,"end":11537.152,"text":"一件然後核准了十件所以實務上其實並不多啦那我自己認為這個當然大家在討論的時候對於隱私權的侵害是比較高可是實務上面運作剛才在討論過程中大家都覺得是想要去搜索室內的秘密的活動但在犯罪偵查的時候我們其實不是這樣子來運用多半會運用在什麼樣的狀況呢因為我們從戶外對室內的"},{"start":11541.756,"end":11556.524,"text":"就是監看其實目的有幾個第一個我們想要了解出入的人出入的車出入的物品反而不是室內活動的情形因為室內活動的情形對於犯罪偵查來講並不是"},{"start":11558.925,"end":11584.844,"text":"唯一的重點其實是要看人車進入尤其在制毒工廠這是非常重要的因為他有沒有制毒工具進去到底是誰進去然後車子在哪裡所以多半是用在這方面反而沒有剛才很多先進可能會擔心是不是對於室內的隱私其實從戶外到室內我們能夠看的是什麼不是從門就是從窗"},{"start":11586.266,"end":11606.013,"text":"所以如果在室內空間當中他有做一定的遮蔽的時候我們也是沒有辦法去監看到室內活動的情形所以可能我覺得要特別說出來就是說我們不是要看室內的隱私的活動反而是要看進出的一些狀況那以上是刑事警察局的說明謝謝大家"},{"start":11608.055,"end":11619.05,"text":"好 謝謝我們刑事警察局林建榮主任接下來 來 我們吳宗憲 昭也也來現場請跟大家來發表一下你的看法"},{"start":11620.657,"end":11638.023,"text":"有關這個部分我比較在意的是設備端監控的部分因為我自己在2017年的時候我就寫過一些文章現在網路上也都還查得到就是有關設備端監控的一些問題因為其實我們上次在修法的時候確實也有討論到這一塊"},{"start":11640.582,"end":11656.088,"text":"可是因為目前我覺得社會上面的共識還是非常的沒有共識非常的分歧但是我也很清楚說設備端監控可能是規避到現在非常多的通訊軟體因為通訊軟體的公式它不會提供"},{"start":11657.108,"end":11681.897,"text":"他的那個那個內碼什麼給你嘛所以你沒有辦法去破解所以到最後可能也是只能從一些設備端的監控或其他的方式然後來來取得這個監控的這個途徑可是因為目前還是有很多爭議啦比如說你說設備端監控到底你進去之後你能看的東西是什麼如果你是1月1號拿到這個監聽票的"},{"start":11684.838,"end":11706.54,"text":"那問題是他手機或是他電腦裡面他可能存有一月一號以前的資料那你可不可以看那你有沒有辦法去限制公家機關有沒有辦法不去看這些東西這都是問題都是我們必須解決或是我們必須向民眾去說明的雖然我知道說設備端監控它對於打擊犯罪來說是有它的必要性尤其是遠端監控"},{"start":11707.361,"end":11731.966,"text":"可是因為還是必須要跟民眾說明讓民眾比較不會擔心所以這一塊在立法上面我想說我們可能還要花一段時間再溝通去研究但如果站在檢察官跟警察的立場當然覺得這個這個辦案上面是非常有效果的利器嘛那我2017年那時候我寫那個文章主要是因為我當時當檢察官的時候我發現"},{"start":11733.479,"end":11755.289,"text":"通訊監察沒有用因為我們聽了30天下來你聽到的只是他訂便當的電話而已你根本聽不到他任何通訊往來的一些資訊所以那時候才會覺得世界上非常多國家都有像美國、法國、德國等等他都有不同型態的"},{"start":11756.31,"end":11777.77,"text":"類似的監控的方式那我們是不是應該要再去增加當時是我們有去思考的所以這塊我覺得在立法上面我們可能還會再多跟執行機關像警政組或是法務部這邊多溝通一下看看有沒有辦法去平衡個人隱私還有執行上面的問題因為這個問題不克服"},{"start":11779.972,"end":11796.542,"text":"我覺得我們在面對毒品集團炸雞集團我們確實是很難辦這個我能夠理解因為20年前的監聽非常好用那個時候因為所有東西它沒有通訊軟體所以監聽它確實是辦案上面一個很有效的工具但現在變成是"},{"start":11798.303,"end":11812.436,"text":"是沒有用了所以我們那個監聽的機房現在錄到的都是用處都不是那麼大那這是一個就我想說我們都來努力一下看看可以怎麼做另外就是也要"},{"start":11813.652,"end":11829.68,"text":"如何去預防不管任何時期的執政者他會拿這個東西出來去監控人民這也是我們我們要思考的不管任何政黨任何時期我們都要去思考這個部分另外就是說剛剛司法院有提到說是不是說把一些東西"},{"start":11831.903,"end":11854.961,"text":"放在刑事訴訟法裡面他認為不妥是不是要放在通保法等等的我覺得這當然有可以討論那當時在去年在立法的時候當時我們後來最後決定是我們是參考德國的立法模式我們把它放在刑事訴訟法裡面當時是這樣那將來你要不要說再做其他的做法我想"},{"start":11857.596,"end":11878.39,"text":"因為目前我是 我當時我的想法是放刑事訴訟法但我知道放刑事訴訟法 因為主責機關是司法院所以司法院當然負擔加重 這我可以理解啦但是 是不是這樣會比較符合法律的體力而不會像造成有一些學者所說的我們台灣就是一個特別法肥大政的國家"},{"start":11879.711,"end":11899.006,"text":"我們的現在有一大堆有的沒有的特別法結果搞到最後特別法跟特別法之間搞不好都會產生矛盾那這個對於整個法治來說對我們國家人民來說也不是好事所以這部分先跟司法院解釋一下那當然不是不行啦只是說我們可能再多考量一下是不是說"},{"start":11900.408,"end":11922.733,"text":"維持我們去年在立法上面的一貫性還是我們真的要去放到通保法還是要另立一個專法我覺得這將來我們都可以交換意見多多溝通那我們跟那個其他立法院的其他的有黨們我們也會多溝通就跟民進黨跟民眾黨會多溝通看看怎麼樣對人民比較有利 謝謝"},{"start":11925.537,"end":11932.8,"text":"好 謝謝 吳宗憲早晚你講這個我很有感你有沒有覺得我這樣 上個會期大聲幾乎就是在講這些 你們都不敢聽你們現在這樣 氾濫恢復了沒有啊 什麼東西氾濫恢復沒關係啦 這樣不錯啦後來你這樣旗意來歸 意見相同也很好啦來"},{"start":11945.544,"end":11970.794,"text":"沒有 我們一直 我的堅持都沒有變過啦沒有關係 我們兩個再開一場我們兩個自己辯論好不好 今天是公聽謝謝 特別感謝我們吳宗憲召委 趕來來跟大家致意啦那我們今天的公聽會的發言就告此告一個段落啦 我非常感謝所有的與會者從不同的面向來提供這些寶貴的一個意見"},{"start":11972.034,"end":11991.504,"text":"那今天各位所有的發言的內容跟我們審法委員的書面意見還有各位的書面意見所提的這些資料我們均列入記錄刊登公報並製成公聽會的一個報告送交本院權力委員會及本日出席列席的人員來做一個參考"},{"start":11992.865,"end":12001.297,"text":"重點是便當不是有來啦嘛 便當快滑下去然後本次的公聽會到此結束謝謝大家 現在散會 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李宗盛"},{"start":1829.565,"end":1847.488,"text":"好謝謝各位媒體朋友嘉賓還有這個非常多的部會一起來參與那我想一開始我們還是希望能夠稍微做一點說明那有介於科技發展日新月異一日千里"},{"start":1848.149,"end":1868.039,"text":"那隨著能源科技的持續變異跟發展那以及呢對於非碳家園低碳無煤等等的目標有追求我們更多元的電力我們也希望能夠追求那核能呢再次的應該說我想對不起這個我稍微再回復一下"},{"start":1869.564,"end":1886.882,"text":"首先希望能够感谢与会的13位专家学者在场的媒体朋友那列席的政府官员代表那今天工地会的主题呢是展望未来科技发展实现非碳家园为台湾能源提供多元的选项"},{"start":1887.583,"end":1913.096,"text":"那台灣的能源問題以及機會或者風險都是全國所有民眾包含產業界學研界都共同關心的議題那不僅如此由於台灣在科技產業上面具有重要的全球戰略地位因此許多國家也十分關切我們的能源政策那畢竟穩定平價"},{"start":1914.537,"end":1930.391,"text":"多元的電力才是台灣未來發展的非常重要的基石那各界對於台灣能源選項的高度關注從今年1月剛剛召開的第三次總統府國家氣候變遷對策委員會的會議就可見一斑"},{"start":1931.152,"end":1960.099,"text":"那根據會議記錄委員會的兩位副召集人合作聯合科技董事長童子賢先生以及組長中華民國最高學術研究機關中研院的廖俊志院長都在這樣的會議當中明確的表示考量民生與產業的需求尤其未來AI用電需求量可能無上限台灣土地面積則有限再生能源總量也有上限"},{"start":1961.226,"end":1981.404,"text":"因此必须考虑其他能源选项来因应未来的需求这是最务实的看法也是最沉痛的呼吁为了台湾未来的发展以及我们科技业的永续除了再生的能源政府应该尽速考虑其他能源的选项"},{"start":1982.485,"end":2011.905,"text":"这是这个会议当中包括童子贤董事长包括廖进志院长都曾经提出的相关的意见和看法不仅国内对于能源的选项感到关注跟忧心台湾供电的稳定性也为国内外的产业以及外国的投资者是非常关心的首要议题台湾美国商会今年1月份就有发布2025年商业景气调查报告"},{"start":2012.565,"end":2040.5,"text":"报告当中高达82%的受访者对于台湾未来的能源供应是有表示担忧的52%呼吁政府在未来的一年应将能源充足性作为首要任务比去年也就是2024年的调查结果又上升了13%反映能源疫情受到美国商会以及非常多的美商外商高度的关注"},{"start":2041.32,"end":2069.67,"text":"那也在前阵子美国在台协会AIT的处长古利延处长也表示了能源当然是很多在台湾的公司与美国公司相当忧虑的问题那对此美国能提供核能协助当然也包含其他的绿能还有更多的能源的来源那国内的产业界更多是几乎政府必须重视缺电的问题并提出解决方案"},{"start":2070.49,"end":2092.041,"text":"除此之外,國際上更關注台灣能源供給問題所釀成的國家安全致命弱點。法國國際關係研究所 的研究報告就指出,中共意圖在經濟上封鎖台灣,目標之一便是阻斷台灣能源進口的生命線。"},{"start":2092.941,"end":2112.908,"text":"台灣作為海島電力系統為封閉式的儘管執政黨以2025非核家園為目標且近年來再生能源有一定程度的發展但台灣的能源仍大量依賴天然氣燃煤等化石燃料而其中又高達了96%到98%透過進口"},{"start":2117.625,"end":2145.563,"text":"如果面臨禁運或海運受阻或者極端的情況台灣將極度的脆弱尤其在電力的供應上在區域緊張的脈絡下能源供應會是我們中華民國在國安上面的致命傷因此無論從民生的需求從產業的發展甚至是國家安全的角度那尤其我們現在是非常重視地緣政治的狀態也好"},{"start":2146.664,"end":2163.002,"text":"AI科技的發展也好我們都必須加速為台灣的能源提供充足穩定而且多元的選項那最後呢再次感謝今天與會的專家學者代表本次的公聽會旨在提供一個理性"},{"start":2163.743,"end":2181.034,"text":"平和多元的溝通平台我們立法院所有的立法委員也有傾聽的責任我們做出最好的選項那還請各位專家學者以及立院先進不吝提供寶貴的意見那我們今天也有相關的這個討論提綱我稍微做一個簡要的這個陳述"},{"start":2186.437,"end":2214.851,"text":"那我們今天討論提綱的第一點其實也是相對平衡也多元的就第一點面對可預期之民生與產業發展需求政府如何提供穩定且平價的電力第二點提綱為維持供電穩定在安全無疑的前提下我國核電廠研議或重啟是否具有可行性第三點"},{"start":2215.871,"end":2240.9,"text":"我國對於人員科技研發之資源配置核能科技是否應該為投入項目之一那這是我們今天的討論提綱那我們現在介紹與會的委員以及貴賓那我想因為委員都今天有非常多的委員有這個發言簽到發言那待會我想他們應該會一一來過來來做發言"},{"start":2243.661,"end":2271.576,"text":"那我們也就先介紹這個我們的專家學者的這個名單那我們就以這個簽到這個我們就依序來說台灣環境保護聯盟謝志成會長謝謝謝會長那國立清華大學工程與系統科學系葉宗光特聘教授謝謝教授"},{"start":2273.84,"end":2295.575,"text":"中國文化大學化學工程與材料工程學系林仁斌副教授謝謝謝謝林副教授中華民國全國工業總會工總邱碧英副秘書長謝謝副秘書長國立清華大學科技法律研究所高明志教授謝謝高教授"},{"start":2298.271,"end":2320.14,"text":"那再來綠色公民行動聯盟林鎮元研究員謝謝林研究員謝謝那屏東縣恆春鎮游史金鎮長謝謝也謝謝游鎮長這個不遠千里而來給我們在地的聲音那中華民國全國商業總會劉守仁秘書長謝謝劉秘書長謝謝"},{"start":2324.677,"end":2336.585,"text":"臺灣滿野新竹生態協會蔡雅瑩專職律師 謝謝蔡律師 謝謝那再來MomentX李敬偉執行長 謝謝李執行長那再來呢我們會有這個線上遠端連線的幽碧達郭榮昌創辦人兼執行長那他現在他應該9點半會連線上來"},{"start":2349.975,"end":2364.967,"text":"那我們也有一位以預錄方式出席的非常重要的參與者之一大家都非常重要那我們也有另外一位是以預錄方式參與的合碩聯合科技童子賢童董事長謝謝好那我們現場也有委員已經到場了翁曉琳委員謝謝翁委員"},{"start":2377.915,"end":2397.198,"text":"那我们接下来还有我们非常谢谢我们的在场的官员那我们首先呢介绍国家科学及技术委员会国科会的主任秘书林广宏主秘谢谢那国科会工程技术研究发展处专门委员张嘉恒专委谢谢"},{"start":2398.915,"end":2420.21,"text":"那核能安全委員會核安會副主任委員副主委張欣副主委謝謝謝謝張副主委那核安會綜合規劃處組長李其思組長謝謝核能安全委員會核安管制組組長高斌組長高組長謝謝核安會核物料管制組陳文權組長謝謝"},{"start":2423.099,"end":2448.699,"text":"國家原子能科技研究院院長高子牧院長高院長謝謝那我們也有中研院中央研究院的秘書長陳軍厚陳秘書長謝謝那今天也是百忙中趕來謝謝那中央研究院永續科學中心主任陳于高主任謝謝陳主任也是百忙中趕來那經濟部常務次長賴建信賴次長"},{"start":2449.64,"end":2473.001,"text":"好謝謝次長出席那經濟部國營事業管理師副司長劉啟孝劉副司長謝謝那我們有經濟部能源署代理組長夏育權代理組長那也謝謝台電台灣電力公司副總經理徐永輝徐副總經理謝謝那我們法務部參事汪南君參事謝謝好"},{"start":2475.011,"end":2493.201,"text":"那謝謝大家再次感謝那我想我們再次強調我們這次的公聽會真的是希望能夠聆聽各種聲音那讓我們立法院以及我們的各位官員能夠做出最好的台灣能源政策的決定那本次邀請的與會貴賓有幽碧達的郭榮昌執行長因為在國外無法趕回與會"},{"start":2499.645,"end":2521.939,"text":"那他預定會在9點45分之前就與本會來進行視訊那另外 核說聯合科技童子賢董事長那他同時也是氣候變遷因應委員會的這個副召集人那他應該 他也是在國外無法趕回與會那已經將意見預先錄影那將與與會委員貴賓軍發言完畢以後我們會播放影片"},{"start":2527.302,"end":2555.262,"text":"那另外我們今天呢有手語老師做翻譯也有同步的聽打服務那待會有需要表達意見的時候請到我的右手邊右手邊的這個質詢台進行發言那因為我們只有兩位手語老師那他們就這樣就不用一直移動所以請大家就一律都到右手邊的這個質詢台來進行發言所以拜託大家幫忙配合一下那以利於手語老師的畫面轉播"},{"start":2556.323,"end":2584.869,"text":"那如果需要觀看聽打的服務那請到立法院議事轉播網際網路多媒體隨選視訊系統也就是IVOD的頁面當中會提供連結那能夠收看即時的字幕那我們今天安排的三位聽打員非常辛苦也非常感謝他們謝劍斌彭仁義范文文還有兩位首議員李正輝蕭匡宇我們掌聲先謝謝他們好不好謝謝"},{"start":2585.629,"end":2603.935,"text":"很辛苦那接下來為了能大家能夠順利的表達意見那我們做如下的處理首先我們每位貴賓發言的時間預計是7分鐘那我們在6分鐘的時候我們會有鈴聲提醒那7分鐘結束的時候我們會有一個結束的鈴聲"},{"start":2604.975,"end":2612.06,"text":"那專家學者的發言呢我們以簽名先後的順序為準那以及我們臨時有變動調整的話我們會公告之那現場的發言以及書面的資料立法院會做成記錄刊登在公報上所以我們今天的"},{"start":2622.348,"end":2646.604,"text":"這個公聽會真的非常非常重要能夠提供我們的各界一個非常完整的這個平衡的看法跟觀點那在場的立法委員如果有意見要發表在10點鐘以前登記者我們也會在會議當中進行穿插並且以在場委員登記順序發言那委員如果有要發言的那可以到主席台來登記"},{"start":2648.052,"end":2657.078,"text":"那我們現在就先請河安會張副主委來就現行的規定執行的狀況等相關問題來提出說明那時間7分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2676.536,"end":2702.038,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進女士先生大家好今天應邀列席大院教育及文化委員會召開之核子反應器設施管制法也就是核管法修法公聽會行會針對本次討論的提綱將依序一核電廠研議或重啟的可行性以及核安會投入核能科技研發的情形提出說明敬請各位委員及先進不吝指教"},{"start":2702.899,"end":2717.528,"text":"在核电厂研议或重启可行性的方面核电厂研议涉及国家整体能源规划政府已经表示核电的使用要以确保核安和废料可处理及社会有共识的前提并依法行政"},{"start":2718.208,"end":2736.989,"text":"行会作为独立的核能安全管制机关本欲法定职责执行专业安全管制为民众安全把关以下仅就核安管制机关角度从国内核电厂机组及用过核子燃料储存现况研议申请之法令遵行等方面依序说明之"},{"start":2737.89,"end":2765.822,"text":"目前核一二厂及核三厂一号机运转执照均已借其依我国目前能源政策规划停止运转依法除役核三厂二号机也将在今年五月借其后停止运转进入除役核一二厂及核三厂一号机在进入除役阶段后台根公司不再对与燃料安全及除役作业安全无关的设备进行维护保养"},{"start":2766.482,"end":2792.261,"text":"核一二厂的行政组织及维护人力也因应厨艺作业的需求而调整另外以核一厂为例其部分与燃料安全无关的周边厂房及设备也陆续拆除因此目前进入厨艺阶段的核能机组设备状态及组织人力都和运转发电所实质所需的条件有一定的差距"},{"start":2792.961,"end":2807.143,"text":"而核三厂因二号机还在运转当中其组织与人力目前仍维持运转期间的状态但在今年五月停止运转进入除疫阶段后台电公司因为巡力有所调整"},{"start":2808.072,"end":2824.138,"text":"目前,合一二厂用过燃料池已尽满足,合三厂用过燃料池储存空间有限,仅可公约再运转四年多。因此,不论厨艺或者研艺,干除设施必须新建启用,才能接续相关作业。"},{"start":2825.205,"end":2851.405,"text":"在室外乾除推動部分台電公司完成核一廠室外乾除熱測室作業目前正在向核安會申請運轉執照此外台電公司也已經在今年1月開始東宮興建核二廠室外乾除設施並規劃將於明年中完成該設施的興建在此期間核安會會執行安全檢查嚴密監督興建的品質"},{"start":2852.566,"end":2874.686,"text":"在室内干除设施推动的部分,台电公司已经在今年1月办理合一、二场室内干除设施公开招标的作业,另于今年2月办理合三场室内干除设施采购文件公开阅览。核安会持续督促台电公司推动核电厂室内干除设施新建计划以及深造作业。"},{"start":2875.649,"end":2896.374,"text":"在法令規定的部分,目前國內和一、二、三場各部機組都已經超過現行法令規定可提出換照申請的期限。核安會尊重大院委員及黨團所提核管法修正草案及條例草案,因提案內容有不同程度的差異,需要多方討論,尋求共識。"},{"start":2899.537,"end":2915.657,"text":"若修法通过,也仍需要经由经济部和台电公司就各个核能机组的状况及继续运转所需办理的安全事项,审慎评估研疫的安全性、可行性及执行效益后,来决定是否提出研疫的申请。"},{"start":2917.537,"end":2943.993,"text":"核安会本于安全管制的立场如果台电公司依法提出研议申请也需依法规要求及参照国际一致的安全标准与做法进行核能机组整体性老化评估与管理检查设备状况更新需要态患的设备执行必要的安全强化的措施盘点组织人力及解决用过燃料储存空间问题等"},{"start":2944.793,"end":2955.938,"text":"在確認機組延長運轉期間可安全運轉,經核安會嚴格的安全審查及現場查證,確認符合法規要求,同意換發執照以後,方能繼續運轉。"},{"start":2959.218,"end":2982.65,"text":"在核安會投入核能科技研發的情形方面核能科技涵蓋領域範疇甚廣包含核子工程、輻射防護、放射性物料法律以及相關衍生應用科技等近三年核安會每年平均投入約9.6億元的科技研發預算約八成經費是用在核能科技"},{"start":2983.51,"end":3013.17,"text":"旨在健全管制技术及法规维系核能人才充实基础科学及推广衍生科技在医农工业的应用等核安会亦透过持续补助国研院执行小型模组化反应器也就是所称的SMR相关研究投入新核能科技研发主要包含收集研析国际间有关SMR之相关发展与管制资讯并进行安全分析技术的先期研究"},{"start":3014.07,"end":3036.84,"text":"此外國研院與國內學研單位共同合作執行國科會補助資詞約數高溫電漿研究整合型計畫進行核融合相關研究目標在116年完成國內首套小型球型TOKMOK研究用實驗裝置為台灣核融合技術的發展建立重要的平台最後"},{"start":3037.85,"end":3060.146,"text":"目前国内大众对于核电厂研议或重启仍存有不同意见,需在核能安全、核废处理、社会共识等前提下审慎评估、充分讨论沟通。核安会尊重大院委员及党团所提的核管法修正草案及条例草案,若修法通过,仍需由经济部和台电公司审慎评估后决定提出是否申请。"},{"start":3061.187,"end":3076.819,"text":"核安會除堅守核能安全職責亦持續投入資源推動核能科技研發以強化安全管制及技術及法規維繫核能人才並接軌國際以上報告敬請各位委員先進不吝指教謝謝好謝謝張欣張副主委那接下來請國科會林廣宏主秘發言時間五分鐘"},{"start":3100.886,"end":3114.612,"text":"主席各位委員先進學業專家大家好今天很榮幸說要列席貴園會召開的核子反應器設施管制法部分條文修正草案的修法公聽會那以下就請就國科會在補助"},{"start":3115.652,"end":3140.48,"text":"學研界投入與核能相關的研究情形做一個簡要的說明首先國科會長期以來和核安會這邊共同來推動原子能科技學術合作研究計畫結合及應用國內學術單位的研發能量推動原子能名稱應用的基礎研究並支援任務導向的政策規劃與安全管制的"},{"start":3141.5,"end":3164.56,"text":"相關應用研發研究重點大概有四個部分第一個就是核能與廚藝安全的科技第二個是放射性物質的物料的安全科技第三是輻射防護與放射醫學科技第四是跨域合作與風險溝通其次國科會從112年起推動核融合的相關研究"},{"start":3165.848,"end":3192.045,"text":"那學界這邊在投入的研究項目包括有慣性約束合融合的高功率雷射電漿磁約束高溫電漿實驗以及合融合理論的研究那除了前面兩項推動的專案計畫之外國科會也長期支援能源學門基礎科學的研究研究的項目包括有再生能源節約能源儲能以及其他能源科技等"},{"start":3192.685,"end":3215.17,"text":"透過這些獎補助的措施來累積學界基礎研究的能量以及進行人才培育的工作以上簡要報告進行指教並祝大家身體健康順心如意謝謝謝謝國科會林廣宏主任那接下來請中央研究院中研院陳于高陳主任發言時間6分鐘謝謝"},{"start":3227.501,"end":3253.375,"text":"主席 朝委 各位委員還有在座的各位先進學者 大家好中醫院現在沒有專家在做核技術方面的研究不過中醫院為了全國的近鄰的工作曾經做過一些電力的全球趨勢的盤點今天在這裡就分享我們一些已經盤點出來的全球大趨勢"},{"start":3255.116,"end":3268.384,"text":"所有的事情都來自於說全球暖化我們需要有更乾淨的電力那就回到我們排碳的這個基礎上來看我國的碳排57%"},{"start":3271.346,"end":3296.187,"text":"都是因為我們在生產電力供大家使用另外還有40%左右是因為燃燒所排出來的碳加起來能源部門共用了91%這個跟大多數的先進的工業國家是一樣的就是我們的排碳都在能源部門"},{"start":3296.807,"end":3319.995,"text":"那能源部門裡面又以發電是最主要大家不要忘記了我們所有東西燃燒的都在努力的電氣化也就是走向2050在台灣碳排電力恐怕不止51%的排碳會不斷的再往上增加以我們的簡單的計算現在我國每一年需求大概2800億度電到2050的時候我們可能需要"},{"start":3326.919,"end":3349.153,"text":"5000億度電左右 這還不含現在不清楚到底會成長多少的AI的需求和經濟的成長在這樣的條件下 我們就來想想我們現在有的幾個發電的手段燃煤燃氣 燃油抽蓄核能 還有再生能源"},{"start":3349.933,"end":3361.528,"text":"再生能源大概現在只有一年大概271度左右好 我們非常努力在2050年我們大概可以把它衝到1000億度那離5000億度還有4000億度的空間"},{"start":3365.112,"end":3382.042,"text":"那這個空間裡面我們現在有什麼無碳電力的手段呢恐怕馬上可以用的大概就是核二三我們如果不淘汰的話它可以提供三百億度剩下的通通需要努力就是我們需要找到新的手段"},{"start":3382.902,"end":3405.813,"text":"那在這麼多新的手段有哪些呢比如說天然氣我把它去碳一的就是把二氧化碳封存一的或者是把這個天然氣裡面的甲烷的碳拿掉只燃燒氫也就是我們需要發展氫能那也可以進口氯氨氯氫去發展新的氫能發電那自己再"},{"start":3407.394,"end":3434.937,"text":"國內自由的能源有海洋能 生殖能和地熱能全部加起來看能不能夠到5000億度這是大家在努力的一個工作方向這些選項都跟我們的土地大小有關係哪些能源的使用在土地的需求比較高土地需求比較高的是光能和風能"},{"start":3436.538,"end":3454.489,"text":"如果只有單機當然是不佔空間可是要大面積來使用的話就會很佔空間所幸我國是用離岸風電這方面的顧慮比較少一些比較小需求的土地面積是地熱跟核能這個資料供大家做參考"},{"start":3455.61,"end":3483.39,"text":"接下來我們就來看一看其中的核能的選項也就是今天的主題有不少國家現在還擁有核能也在發展核能中總共盤點出來有440座React現在在運轉中有65座施工中規劃中有86座有計劃要建的大概有300多座最近兩三年的規劃"},{"start":3485.071,"end":3509.85,"text":"要興建的數量在攀升中這是全球趨勢我們國內現在有的三個核電廠核一 核二 核三都是第二代的原來我們設計的核四是第三代大家也知道隨著代數的成長這安全性是逐步的提高的到了第三代的最先進的三Plus的時候"},{"start":3510.51,"end":3531.386,"text":"就已經有很好的免人為被動安全停機的機制根據文獻它的安全係數大概提升了兩個數量級大概就是100倍的安全性到了第四代就是大家常常說的這個小型的模組的時候安全性就相對會更高"},{"start":3533.447,"end":3550.41,"text":"是不是更適合我們用呢我們可以大家一起來看看這些新的資訊在台灣我們跟在其他的國家有一個很不一樣的就是我們不斷的有地震我們的斷層密度比人家高這一部分台電也經過了比較嚴厲的評估對核一核二核三廠"},{"start":3558.752,"end":3580.473,"text":"那麼這個Level 3的這個報告也是可以取得的那我跟大家說一下這個結論報告本身是完全符合這個國際準則的不管是核一核二核三都是那是不是需要再進一步因為我國在地震和斷層的資訊上還有更多新的資訊這部分確實還要再進行"},{"start":3583.596,"end":3602.008,"text":"在這個評估還沒有完成之前是不是這些核電廠在緊急事故的時候還能夠維持它的安全這應該也是都是肯定的這個報告給大家去參考接下來我們可以看一下"},{"start":3603.649,"end":3631.161,"text":"我們核一核二核三三個廠現在呢都因為核廢料的中置廠還沒有完成所以都放在廠裡面 一個是冷卻池或乾式儲存那經過評估 我們不拿出來放在廠裡面那最少還可以用十年那全部放在廠裡 如果乾儲也建好了那大概可以用到四五十年但是之後我們還是要找到中置廠來把它"},{"start":3632.842,"end":3647.555,"text":"保存至於SMR它的安全性確實是比較高可是它的核廢料有不同的設計核廢料有的機組甚至比原來還更高這個需要討論我們倒是做任何其他的選擇"},{"start":3648.476,"end":3665.424,"text":"最後跟大家報告科學家覺得科學在不斷的進展以前解決不了的問題科學家都很有信心以後陸陸續續會解決所以我們也期待合融合會在未來的幾個世紀未來幾個十年裡面會變成我們的新的選項謝謝大家"},{"start":3672.537,"end":3680.243,"text":"好謝謝中研院陳愚高主任那我們接下來有請經濟部的賴建信次長賴次長發言時間7分鐘謝謝"},{"start":3697.646,"end":3719.567,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位女士 先生感謝各位委員對本部業務的各項的支持跟指教承蒙貴委員會邀請參加本公聽會緊究我國核能電廠現狀及重啟再運轉需解決的課題提出簡要的報告 敬請各位先進不吝指教"},{"start":3720.7,"end":3733.652,"text":"首先,我國核能電廠的現況第一,核一廠於108年7月運轉執照屆期目前已經拆除核安關鍵設施、汽渦輪發電機、聯外鐵塔"},{"start":3740.432,"end":3764.201,"text":"輸電線路等發電必要設施至於在核二廠的1號機組的部分運轉執照原在110年12月27號屆期是因用過燃料池已經放滿燃料棒反應爐內的用過燃料棒無法移出所以提前於110年7月2號停止運轉"},{"start":3769.189,"end":3772.633,"text":"8號機組也於112年3月14號運轉執照屆期至於河山廠1號機組於113年7月運轉執照屆期8號機組將於今年的5月17號屆期"},{"start":3788.8,"end":3803.764,"text":"第二報告核電廠重啟再運轉需解決之課題首先是在確保核能安全部分為了確保核能電廠之安全重啟再運轉核能機組需參考國外電業的做法針對核電廠重要設施結構進行通盤性的盤點與檢視也就是我們說的安全總體檢"},{"start":3819.758,"end":3844.11,"text":"結構設備機組的受領的管理設備的態況更新針對福島事件安全強化耐震補強評估且重啟再運轉計畫需經國際同儕審查並通過監管單位核安會的審查至於在處置核廢料部分無論核電廠是否重啟再運轉"},{"start":3845.657,"end":3873.178,"text":"核廢料的處置必須務實面對要能配套推動目前核廢料的處置推動過程屢遭反對高階核廢料最終處置廠也面臨選址無法源光做地質調查就遭到抗爭的窘境低階的核廢料最終處置廠也因為地方政府的拒絕協助公投"},{"start":3875.728,"end":3875.888,"text":"第三"},{"start":3897.591,"end":3914.384,"text":"政府長期電源的規劃,是以提供穩定且平價的電力為目標,為了滿足AI發展、半導體產業的擴廠、運具電器等大幅成長的用電、成長量及產業需求,"},{"start":3915.427,"end":3927.29,"text":"本部每年滾動檢討推估未來用電需求以考量半導體AI新興科技等用電需求預估113年到117年用電的成長2.5%左右經檢視113年用電的成長時機為2.5%與預估值一致"},{"start":3940.259,"end":3954.487,"text":"此外本部優先擴大建置再生能源推動燃氣計畫113年深霸二期以及大潭七號八號陸續上線114年預計有新達CC1號2號及台中新CC1號上線至121年新增的機組累計可增加"},{"start":3967.314,"end":3977.3,"text":"1636萬千瓦遠大於廚藝機組的數量可充分滿足用電需求此外考量未來間歇性再生能源大量併網積極推動"},{"start":3979.983,"end":3995.647,"text":"具備快速啟動能力及高升降載率之燃氣複循環計畫提升整體供電的可靠度除了積極加強電網韌性及投入儲能系統建置之外"},{"start":3997.328,"end":4013.299,"text":"並搭配優化基礎調度的策略需求面的管理確保再生能源發電量佔比情境之下之穩定供電隨著再生能源設置成本逐漸下降我國各項短過匯率亦逐年下降"},{"start":4014.259,"end":4040.81,"text":"為了確保我國電價的平穩反映電業合理供應成本本部依法設立電價審議委員會由學者專家工商及消費團體代表及相關政府機關代表組成並考量對民生物價產業競爭力能源使用效率之影響以公平公正公開透明的原則進行審議"},{"start":4042.991,"end":4059.596,"text":"對於新興核能技術的能源配置在能源安全核能安全核廢料可處理社會可充分共識的情況下政府對未來新興核能技術抱持開放的態度目前國際新興"},{"start":4061.863,"end":4079.583,"text":"新型的核能技術的發展尚未成熟歐美先進國家尚無建造及運轉的時機故在設計的安全性以及核廢料是否能減量仍有待確實的時機來佐證本部及台電公司將持續關注國際發展的現況"},{"start":4082.335,"end":4101.388,"text":"面對未來新核能技術的發展可能性除了配置適當的人力進行核能科技的勤收與研究之外並與國外技術擁有者開發者保持更多的對話也尋求國外合作的機會如派員至國外核電廠"},{"start":4103.106,"end":4127.651,"text":"及國家實驗室見習最後政府基於長期電源的穩定及平穩物價預計在113年至121年全國大型機組竟增加1630萬千瓦大於預估用電成長需求可確保能源穩定本部尊重國會修法的決議維修法前本部需依法"},{"start":4128.931,"end":4138.856,"text":"依照各項核子管理時程進行相關的工作重啟再運轉需確保核安之外亦需務實與社會溝通處理核廢料處置的問題"},{"start":4143.325,"end":4158.238,"text":"面對未來新核能發展技術的可能性本部將持續關注國際的發展現況主動尋求對話以及合作以上報告敬請指教並祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":4161.94,"end":4174.711,"text":"好 謝謝賴市長那我們接下來我們先介紹一下我們今天有非常多位委員這個踴躍來登記發言那我們除了剛剛的歐小林委員以外我們還有林沛翔委員好那我們還有這個廖先祥委員還有我們的蘇清泉委員"},{"start":4186.345,"end":4194.131,"text":"主席各位委員各位女士先生今天奉邀列席貴委員會有關核子反應器設施管制法部分條文的修正草案修法公聽會請代表法務部列席提出相關的意見如下 敬請指教"},{"start":4213.59,"end":4235.629,"text":"有關核磁反應器設施管制法的各項修法議題包括政府應該如何提供穩定且平價的電力核電廠研議或重啟是否具有可行性能源科技研發的資源配置等等這些都是涉及國家能源供應及環境安全等重大政策問題需要相關領域專家的專業意見"},{"start":4237.911,"end":4260.417,"text":"以及主管機關綜合評估國家產業發展的需求能源安全投資環境社會民生期待生活環境永續等面向必須兼顧民生及產業並關注能源對環境的衝擊及其可承受的能力以尋求最大共識支持"},{"start":4261.317,"end":4287.198,"text":"因此有關各位委員、團體、學界、機關等各界的專業意見保護部均與尊重至於核子反應器運轉執照的核發、換發甚至申請再運轉的審核相關審核所需的時程、方式、安全條件等必要的考量這個涉及核能安全的專業知識與技術"},{"start":4289.44,"end":4303.442,"text":"直接的重大政策必須仰賴主管機關多面向多層次的思維以及整體的配套考量建請先由主管機關核能安全委員會提出相關實證"},{"start":4305.342,"end":4322.489,"text":"藉由專業審慎評估並做成政策決定確立據社會共識的能源政策及修法方向以研擬相關草案條文以上報告敬請主席及各位委員女士先生指教謝謝好謝謝王參事發言好謝謝好那我想"},{"start":4332.477,"end":4341.62,"text":"接下來我想依據我們先前的主席發言時有表示我們本次有邀請與會貴賓 郭榮昌執行長他其實在之前也在國外無法趕回與會"},{"start":4349.702,"end":4371.465,"text":"那他本身的也是做這個科技方面包含GPU包含這個雲端的運算等等那我們剛剛有表達是預定於9點45分以前會與本會進行視訊那我想我們是不是請這個教育委員會這邊如果已經上線了我們現在可以切上來"},{"start":4372.486,"end":4387.486,"text":"那因為一些時間的關係那我們也稍微表達一下就是我們今天也所有的與會的成員也都有文字的這個文件在我們的各位的桌上"},{"start":4388.067,"end":4403.313,"text":"那我們包含核能安全委員會的這個核子反應器設施管制法修法公聽會的書面報告我們是有放進來的那我們也包含國家科學及技術委員會國科會"},{"start":4405.054,"end":4418.801,"text":"核子反應器設施管制法的部分條文修正草案的修法公定會的這個我們這次的書面報告那國歌會也有提出那另外呢也包含由中研院有提出的這個國內外核電技術的發展現況"},{"start":4422.463,"end":4447.904,"text":"包含剛剛我們所表達的這個內容那以及我們談論到的一些細節的數字細項等等也都在這份文件當中那另外呢也非常感謝經濟部除了剛剛的發言之外呢也有這個書面的報告核子反應器設施管制法部分條件修正草案的修法公聽會那經濟部呢也是非常重要的在這個議題上的部會那包含台電這裡"},{"start":4449.125,"end":4468.131,"text":"那另外也包含這個法務部這裡也非常感謝出席那這個核子反應器設施管制法部分調完修正草案的修法工聽會的書面資料也都有提供好那我們現在切換一下視訊"},{"start":4477.147,"end":4491.242,"text":"在這邊我們視訊在切換的過程裡面呢我們也稍微跟各位表達一下就是這個科技一日千里也非常謝謝剛才呢我們有這個賴思寶委員也有到場"},{"start":4492.303,"end":4516.236,"text":"來關注我們今天的公聽會之外那我們也透過視訊連線的方式邀請郭榮昌這個幽閉達執行長遠距的來進行視訊來表達那同時呢我們也跟各位報告就是我們待會的發言順序呢就是兩位委員那兩位這個專家學者那也非常感謝我們這個不分黨派"},{"start":4516.676,"end":4534.697,"text":"有非常多位委員都有這個田達做這個發言的登記那同時我們也再次提示各位就是我們有非常完整的文件的資料都在桌上那如果你沒有拿到的話也可以跟我們確認好那我們現在切到這個視訊這邊"},{"start":4677.113,"end":4697.547,"text":"不好意思那因為我們這個設備還在做一些優化調整因為也希望我們的影像跟聲音都可以順利的出來方便我們的聽達人員跟手語老師所以我們再給我們的系統人員一些些時間那我們先稍微調換一下次序我們先請這個林佩祥委員進行發言"},{"start":4707.832,"end":4713.217,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位在場的專家學者跟政府官員還有各位媒體先進"},{"start":4716.499,"end":4736.994,"text":"有關無碳化已經是變成世界未來的趨勢這件事情我們都有不管你是哪個有什麼意識形態哪個黨派基本上這都是我們一致的共識而其實這共識不是應該只有在我們中華民國而已而是包括在歐盟美國甚至中國大陸甚至俄羅斯他們都已經把"},{"start":4738.835,"end":4754.194,"text":"核能當作一個部分就是說如何去製造電力的一個部分為什麼因為Global warming也就是全球暖化這個是一個所謂的迫切而且就在迫在眉睫的危機Clear and present danger"},{"start":4754.915,"end":4776.52,"text":"所以說我個人認為我們現在走的路剛好跟我們現在未來的趨勢背道而馳我記得沒錯的話台灣現在高達95%以上的發電是來自用碳力發電的所以對於我們未來不只是說我們自己本身的電價也好還是未來我們在進出口方面的稅也好其實是非常不利的"},{"start":4777.2,"end":4793.756,"text":"而我們也必須很認真的很務實的去了解到說這個世界上沒有任何一種發電方式是絕對安全而且是最好的方式這件事情是不存在的我之前差不多在半年前我跟"},{"start":4794.797,"end":4814.722,"text":"聯合國原子能委員會的一位顧問他同時之間也是那個德州科技大學的教授聊過他說因為每個國家他對他的地理限制不管是面積也好還是他的區域也好都有一定的限制在所以每個國家他們去發電的方式也進步相同"},{"start":4815.342,"end":4838.54,"text":"所以剛剛像說我們的中研院的陳主任也講到這一塊像是我們台灣適不適合去全力發展風電跟光電這是一個大問號而我們因為地理環境的原因是不是全面要使用太陽能而太陽能的發電的效率是不是能夠支撐我們的民生用電跟我們的工業用電其實這都是值得考慮的"},{"start":4839.481,"end":4859.1,"text":"所以說我們需要,與其說我們想要更多的電力,倒不如說我們需要更多的電力,而我們除了需要這些電力之外,我們更希望它是clean and cheap energy,也就是廉價而且乾淨的能源,或許核電是我們必須要考慮的一個選項。"},{"start":4861.021,"end":4880.734,"text":"我們現在常聽到一句話叫做算力即國力算力即競爭力那如果要讓中華民國在這個世界上繼續能夠保持同樣的競爭力而且身為一個先進國家我們不但保持競爭力之外我們也變成我們一個全球社會裡面獲不可缺的一環"},{"start":4882.195,"end":4901.974,"text":"那這一點來講的時候我們就必須考慮到說我們是不是要摒棄所謂的絕對安全在電力製造上面絕對安全把它給摒棄掉而是考慮到很務實的考慮到相對安全的能源政策我們是不是應該考慮到說怎麼樣我們有更多的電力來應付未來的挑戰"},{"start":4903.171,"end":4929.259,"text":"我們知道AI產業需要電力甚至說我記得以前李登輝前總統曾經講過一句話發展經濟不外乎水跟電那換句話說我們已經聽到太多的業界領袖說我們需要更多的電力所以我們可以總歸來講台灣中華民國我們就是需要更多的電力不是我們想要而是我們需要"},{"start":4929.719,"end":4952.586,"text":"要讓我們中華民國繼續繁榮下去繼續在世界上保有競爭力更多的電力是必須的因此我在這邊呼籲找一個方式能夠繼續讓我們的核電廠能夠延益之外而且能夠提供相對安全的政策跟相對安全的措施讓我們的電力讓我們的國家讓我們的產業能夠繼續下去這是未來不得不的選擇以上"},{"start":4957.369,"end":4977.158,"text":"好謝謝這個林佩祥委員的發言好那我們發言順序稍微做一下調換那我跟翁曉琳委員調換那我們請翁曉琳委員發言謝謝"},{"start":4987.407,"end":5010.044,"text":"张伟还有苏委员在座的各位先进媒体朋友大家好当全世界先进国家纷纷在重启核电之时台湾却反其道而行摒弃核电和全球的趋势唱反调民进党政府十五不化一意孤行始终抱着非核家园的神主牌"},{"start":5010.905,"end":5013.887,"text":"聲稱2025年的綠能佔比要達到20%然而不僅光電離岸風電等等承諾持續的跳票還爆發多起的綠能幣案從早先的雪甲爐渣案88槍擊案台南光電案雲豹能源案乃至最近的台鹽綠能光電幣案等等民進黨根本就是把綠能當成是私人的提款機那犧牲台灣的環保和"},{"start":5039.864,"end":5040.865,"text":"这个台电的能源结构的这个能源饼"},{"start":5066.244,"end":5089.079,"text":"燃煤燃气还是以燃煤燃气为主的火力发电仍然是高达八成那么干净能源的核电呢却下降到百分之三等到今年的五月十七号核三厂的二号机直照到期这个停止运作之后呢那么台湾核电归零火力发电预估大概会达到八成五"},{"start":5090.438,"end":5097.604,"text":"我們可以想像五月後的中南部的台灣的天空恐怕不再是灰蒙蒙而是變成這個暗蒙蒙"},{"start":5101.257,"end":5112.746,"text":"空氣污染將更為的嚴重根據環境部的資料顯示2024年全國PM2.5的平均濃度是高達每立方微克12.5毫克遠遠超過世界衛生組織的5毫克的這個標準其中嘉義"},{"start":5123.052,"end":5133.887,"text":"嘉義縣 嘉義市 雲林 高雄 南投 台南的PM2.5的濃度標準更是WHO標準的3到4倍"},{"start":5135.404,"end":5162.354,"text":"医学研究能也早已经就显就已经证实PM2.5的空污绝对是与肺腺癌息息相关那么民进党是让人用肺发电不仅无法获取台湾的能源安全与稳定供电更让所有人的健康随时都暴露在危险之中那么我们知道常年的错误的能源的政策导致台湾供电吃紧常年亏损电价"},{"start":5163.194,"end":5175.279,"text":"高漲蔡政府任內的八年就發生四次的全國大停電無數次的小停電曾幾何時夏季不停電竟然成為台灣民眾的小確幸"},{"start":5176.792,"end":5195.677,"text":"错误的能源政策让台电呢每年花费数百亿的来购买绿电那么光是112年就花了905亿在绿能上那平均的每度电高达5.2元是核能发电成本的4倍台电的亏损呢就像是一个无底洞"},{"start":5196.877,"end":5200.5,"text":"政府過去三年已經撥補了台電三千億至今虧損還有四千多億這虧損的補助如果能夠救台電也就罷了但是事實上是越補越大動為何我們民眾還要無止盡的去倒貼為民進黨錯誤的政策去買單"},{"start":5215.271,"end":5217.473,"text":"蔡政府曾經承諾說不會缺電也不會調漲電價但是至今已經多次跳表到目前為止已經調整了四次的電價平均的累積漲幅高達35%產業的電價更是高達66%"},{"start":5232.878,"end":5236.44,"text":"民生產業叫苦連天那麼預計民進黨接下來還會以這次立法院撥補給台電一千億為由四月預計會再漲電費那麼當全世界各國都已經紛紛將核能視為是淨明碳排的淨潔能源那麼有很多的專家學者也呼籲那麼應該台灣要重回核電像是唐獎的永續發展得主"},{"start":5260.774,"end":5273.68,"text":"美国哥伦比亚大学萨克斯教授那么他就说台湾的资源天然资源有限核能呢是可能的选项合作的童子贤董事长"},{"start":5274.898,"end":5295.656,"text":"也是说在台湾地侠人仇的环境限制之下应该要借尽瑞士还有瑞典要废除核能基础法令年限的法令限制那么中研院院长廖志俊也说台湾的不能够画地自限把自己困在再生能源的泥沼中AI的产业用电需求极大"},{"start":5296.357,"end":5318.112,"text":"那么至于就是像美国的这个先任处长顾立言也说台湾发展AI产业必须要足够的积载发电量如果我们需要核能美国可以提供协助当世界各国都在逐步重返核电发展和解决核废料的同时我们看到美中"},{"start":5320.495,"end":5336.522,"text":"法日韩都是加速的在新建核电厂美国日本的其他国家更是将核电厂研译美国现在就有88座的核电厂是执照研译从40年延长到60年那么我们知道其实核能发电的成本"},{"start":5337.322,"end":5347.545,"text":"穩定每度電是只有1.4元那麼更重要的是他可以達到能源自主鞏固國家安全的目的那麼就我國目前的核管法的規定核電廠的運轉執照最長只有40年如果需要延長必須在執照的這個前5年"},{"start":5356.708,"end":5384.37,"text":"到期前五年提出但是现在核一核二核集核三厂的一号机都已经进入除异阶段无法提出再运转的申请那么为了解决这个问题那么我也提出了本席也提出了修法一方面的就是放宽申请研议的时间的限制那允许在换照之前让核电厂可以继续运作二方面也可以允许将已除异的核电厂在技术设备安全无意"},{"start":5384.75,"end":5414.33,"text":"无余的情况之下可以提出再运转申请让合一合二合三厂都有机会回归商转那本次的修法无疑的就是要排除台湾目前核电厂研议所面临的法规障碍让台湾的民生产业不至于会陷入无电可用或是用不起电的困境那么今天我们立法院在野的所有的委员我们很负责任的提出修法案"},{"start":5414.83,"end":5442.124,"text":"那麼完備核電廠研議的相關法制那接下來當然還是要看民進黨政府的態度是不是會同意讓台電提出核電廠研議的申請還請全國的人民產業認真的看這一條邁向便宜乾淨安全的能源的永和之路民進黨到底是走還是不走是否真的在乎你我的健康台灣的發展以上謝謝"},{"start":5445.84,"end":5463.615,"text":"謝謝翁曉琳委員的發言那接下來我們請專家學者台灣環境保護聯盟謝志成會長發言那葉忠光我們教授清大工程與系統科學系特聘教授葉教授準備謝謝"},{"start":5480.01,"end":5500.165,"text":"主席 在場的所有先進大家早安我請代表台灣環境保護聯盟在這裡就今天公聽會的提綱表達台灣環境保護聯盟的意見以及台灣環境保護聯盟對相關議題的立場"},{"start":5527.28,"end":5530.642,"text":"電力的選擇要考慮的項目很多"},{"start":5533.41,"end":5558.98,"text":"只是其中的一項由於價格是變動的相對的那能源的選擇應該還是要站在國家永續發展的高度所以容許我把今天的提綱評價兩個字做調整那有關提供穩定電力方面"},{"start":5561.029,"end":5566.192,"text":"環盟的立場就是希望能夠延續能源轉型"},{"start":5572.143,"end":5585.614,"text":"減煤、蒸汽、展綠、非核的規劃原則利用燃氣發電可以快速升降載的優點配合風電、光電的發電時間穩定電網同時我們也支持持續開發離岸風電、光電擴大地熱發電的開發目標"},{"start":5599.845,"end":5618.211,"text":"可以和燃氣發電相輔相成那有關當前電價調漲壓力也因為國際情勢的改變我們看到曙光當然也面臨的一些陰影支持核能的人常常說"},{"start":5629.011,"end":5640.753,"text":"非核家園是電價上漲的元兇甚至說核電是最便宜的這個能源但我這裡引用"},{"start":5641.906,"end":5662.611,"text":"IEA的報告IEA報告裡頭舉出美國歐盟中國跟印度的例子從這幾個國家的資料可以看得出來核電的成本並不是最低成本最低的反而是再生能源那這一份來自歐盟的數據用圖的方式呈現更清楚"},{"start":5676.947,"end":5682.97,"text":"剛剛也有幾位先進提到2050淨零碳排那EIA的報告也看得出來2050淨零"},{"start":5692.591,"end":5706.668,"text":"碳排的情境下呢2050年全球發電的占比再生能源是占89%核電是占8%足足差了11倍那第二個議題就關於"},{"start":5712.386,"end":5734.414,"text":"研議跟核安的這個議題那核安的重要性無庸置疑老舊核電廠研議更需要就核安風險的評估跟審查時間放在最優先的順位那遺憾的是我們看到目前的幾個修法版本"},{"start":5735.434,"end":5759.207,"text":"卻把攸關河岸風險評估及審查所需要的前置時間把它給閹割或者是模糊化我們看來這些修法版本是形同修法沒收河岸這是很多環境議題的團體沒有辦法接受的在台灣"},{"start":5763.097,"end":5785.77,"text":"談老舊核電廠的研議除了設施本身老化的問題之外還需要考慮兩個非常重要的議題一個是核廢料一個是新發現三座核電廠都因為臨近活動斷層衍生的安全耐震評估需要進一步的處理"},{"start":5789.226,"end":5814.478,"text":"那我這裡秀出台灣核廢料管理的這個入境規劃表面上看起來是條條大陸通羅馬那執行鏈上面卻看到條條大陸都有土石流那也不知道羅馬在哪裡在進不得退不能的情況底下累積的核廢料到底有多少"},{"start":5816.471,"end":5824.416,"text":"我們看到低放射性廢棄物的部分1996年5月之前因為蘭嶼計畫存放在蘭嶼低放儲存場的數量"},{"start":5829.366,"end":5847.183,"text":"已經有10277桶那1996年5月之後因為沒有辦法再送到南宇低放儲存場那目前存放在三座核電廠的低放射性廢棄物"},{"start":5848.484,"end":5863.135,"text":"已經達到113,741桶高放射性廢棄物的部分因為沒有著落所以目前全部都暫存在各個核電廠裡面累積的數量已經達到21,527宿"},{"start":5875.285,"end":5900.243,"text":"各位知道這個低放的監管要三百年高放的監管要達數十萬年舊的沒有辦法處理那延逸或者是重啟呢將會產生更多的核廢料我們這樣子做對得起下一代會不會留更多的在給我們的子孫這是大家要好好思考的"},{"start":5901.141,"end":5928.436,"text":"那另外一個就是新發現三座核電廠都跟國斷成袋為伍那我們要思考的是也要問的是已經知道蓋錯地點了是不是還要繼續僥倖研議20年那以前傻傻呆呆的過日子研議之後就要膽戰心驚的過日子"},{"start":5931.052,"end":5949.243,"text":"北海岸的風景很美麗,夕陽很美,但是已經淨黃昏,那放手吧,套句俞立華的小說《又見鍾離》的一句話,包起來的舊衣服已經不能穿了,何必把它打開?"},{"start":5951.011,"end":5965.059,"text":"有關核能科技的部分我們並不反對但是我們希望讓非核加鹽是核能科技的研究的新起點把重點擺在核後端"},{"start":5967.638,"end":5981.233,"text":"對下一代負責的一個研究方向那因為我是代表環境保護聯盟來表達環境保護聯盟對相關議題的看法那我們簡單講我們是反對核電廠再研議那堅持非核家園"},{"start":5990.471,"end":6003.195,"text":"堅持非核附加研那我們也以這個為信念加入這一次大罷免的行列這是環盟最嚴肅的立場謝謝大家謝謝謝志成會長的發言"},{"start":6012.657,"end":6040.028,"text":"那接下來我們請葉宗光教授清大工程與系統科學系特聘教授葉教授謝謝主席好在場各位先生大家好首先我要說明一下我等一下要講的內容都在我手上的這一份這個書面資料裡面如果在場媒體有興趣的話等一下可以找我索取電子檔"},{"start":6040.848,"end":6063.93,"text":"那首先我要說明我們國家現在目前面臨的兩大問題第一個就是供電不穩定還有這個缺電的問題第二個問題就是大家非常關切的電價問題那我先從這個供電穩定的部分來跟大家說起原來在政府執行非核家園政策之後他下一步"},{"start":6064.691,"end":6089.146,"text":"希望能夠達標的就是再生能源為什麼是再生能源因為包括核電跟再生能源兩者都是屬於無碳電力所以原來政府的規劃是希望再生能源能夠填補核電除以之後的一個缺口可是我們看看最新的數據就可以看得出來到今年1月最新的數據呢原本規劃要有2000"},{"start":6091.528,"end":6098.677,"text":"萬千瓦的太陽光電它現在執行只來到1436萬千瓦再加上風電原來規劃是690萬千瓦目前執行只到392萬千瓦在這種情況底下"},{"start":6108.149,"end":6136.748,"text":"綠電來自於再生能源的電力是不可能取代核電原來可以供應的電力所以在這個部分它會造成無碳電力供電不足的一個情形那各位都知道目前在全世界不管是AI也好不管是資料中心資料處理中心也好他們都希望能夠取得穩定的無碳電力今天台灣如果希望"},{"start":6137.528,"end":6155.134,"text":"這些外國的高科技廠商能夠到台灣來進行投資的話如果你沒有辦法提供穩定的無碳電力他們是不可能將台灣列為投資的對象再加上台灣本身半導體產業它也需要擴充"},{"start":6156.734,"end":6180.476,"text":"擴充的時候它也需要電力我們台灣今天的產品要出口到其他國家去的時候很快面臨的就是碳稅科徵的問題今天我們台灣的電力如果超過八成以上都是來自於排碳電力我們企業的競爭力就會喪失你說政府這邊有沒有在做規劃有"},{"start":6182.478,"end":6199.478,"text":"經濟部在從去年到未來去年開始的五年之內他其實規劃了18部的燃氣機組要新增但是這18部的燃氣機組能不能順利運轉今天不是蓋好電廠事情就結束了"},{"start":6200.619,"end":6212.196,"text":"這18部新的機組能不能順利運轉其實還是取決於未來新增的天然氣接收站目前只有3階預計在今年完工工氣剛剛通過環評的4階"},{"start":6215.541,"end":6241.235,"text":"四階的邪惡電廠他要到2030年才有辦法供電然後再加上其他位於台中高雄還有麥寮這幾個地區的燃氣電廠需要的五階六階七階現在民眾抗爭的問題都沒有解決所以未來這18部新增的機組到底是不是能夠像經濟部規劃的一樣"},{"start":6243.476,"end":6267.213,"text":"供給電力這個問題還是個未知數另外我想特別跟各位報告的是現在全球為了達到2050淨零碳排這樣子的一個目標很多國家都希望能夠繼續來使用核電甚至擴充核電COVID-28的時候全球有22個國家提出來"},{"start":6267.953,"end":6281.878,"text":"希望核電在2050年的時候能夠有發電量為現在的三倍所以你可以看到這就是一個全球趨勢那在核電"},{"start":6283.118,"end":6302.269,"text":"研議的部分其實我們還有很多國家可以來參考目前我們的核二跟核三有三部機組是停止運轉的有一部機組正在運轉礙於法規它沒有辦法進行研議可是今天如果要認真考慮重啟或者繼續運轉的話"},{"start":6304.17,"end":6318.739,"text":"美國密西根州的Parsiti核電廠它就是由停止運轉來重啟然後要打算來恢復供電加州的這個魔鬼谷核電廠它是正在運轉的核電廠"},{"start":6319.96,"end":6343.105,"text":"他去申請的原意美國核管會直接給了繼續發電的一個許可這個都是我們台灣的核安管制機關可以加以參考的今天要討論的這個修法其實還不是能夠最快速解決問題最快速解決問題的是讓我們的核管會核安會透過內部的"},{"start":6345.106,"end":6360.488,"text":"這個法規的修正就可以讓我剛剛提到的不管是重啟或者要繼續運轉都可以順利的來執行所以這個都不是問題就看政府這邊有沒有心要執行下去"},{"start":6361.149,"end":6387.477,"text":"另外我也想提到因為剛剛有先進提到核廢處理的問題核廢國家都已經做了非常完整的規劃從廠內濕式儲存到廠內的乾式儲存到最終處置這個三階段的做法早在很多年以前就已經規劃完畢了核廢不是沒有辦法處理是你政府要不要處理"},{"start":6388.177,"end":6416.453,"text":"否則就算今天電廠不研議你一樣有核廢必須要處理的問題要解決所以大家必須要務實的來理性思考最後我想講賴清德總統曾經在去年競選的時候當著台大學生的面說到未來國家碰到緊急狀況的時候可以啟動核電來解決能源供應的問題我想告訴各位"},{"start":6417.153,"end":6438.303,"text":"我個人是在河工這個領域非常多年的研究我今天要重啟一個核電廠不是總統你今天說的核電廠明天就可以發電不是你今天電廠的機組不讓他維持在停機待命的狀態底下他就不可能快速的去啟動發電所以"},{"start":6440.964,"end":6465.607,"text":"你一定要透過修法就算你不讓核電廠發電你也要維持機組在停機待命的狀態底下他才有可能未來真的總統一聲令下他大概三四天一個禮拜之內就可以重啟發電這個才是真心對全國人民負責的一個做法"},{"start":6466.067,"end":6487.815,"text":"除非今天有人跟我講賴總統去年競選時候的這些宣示只是隨口說說那我後面就沒有繼續後續的評論謝謝謝謝特聘教授葉教授的發言那我們接下來有請張雅玲委員發言"},{"start":6494.179,"end":6515.868,"text":"謝謝主席那各會與會的機關代表與先進及專家選擇那我想因為隨著AI的發展電力的需求是持續的在增加所以我們還是必須謹慎而且務實理性的來面對我們的能源問題那目前在這個過程之中我想就是說台灣的核電廠的壽命已經接近或者是超過40年研議其實需要"},{"start":6516.448,"end":6527.94,"text":"大幅的去升級我們的安全系統那可是呢現在是有一些風險存在的例如反應爐壓力容器的催化問題而我們目前缺乏足夠的實驗數據來預測40年以上的輻射催化的一個狀況這使得"},{"start":6533.246,"end":6553.724,"text":"直接討論研議的修法會讓這個研議的這個核電廠如同是一個未爆彈那同時呢雖然核廢料這個現在核廢料一個最大的問題就是說我們現在第一階核廢料的儲存廠已經飽和了而且高放射性的核廢料不是還在冷卻池就是剛進行乾式儲存"},{"start":6555.694,"end":6574.629,"text":"而且我們現在其實都還沒有看到永久儲置場的共識在地方縣市上面的一些爭議都還沒有處理好所以針對這些高放射性的核廢料相關的管理機關也還沒有成立這代表的是什麼是我們現在沒有處理核廢料的一個手段我們就要繼續來討論使用核電"},{"start":6576.85,"end":6594.817,"text":"這樣子的論述我想是有點本末倒置的那最後就是核電廠的成本不管是興建或是研議的成本都是非常高的就例如說剛剛也有前輩提到就是說核商場類似設計的魔鬼加州美國加州魔鬼核電廠來說他們在2024年的時候呢為了研議而進行的貸款"},{"start":6599.839,"end":6613.994,"text":"為了研議而進行的貸款高達14億美元五年的營運成本更高達了118億美元換算成每千度的電費大概是101塊美元根據2024年世界核能產業現況報告的統計"},{"start":6618.158,"end":6634.216,"text":"过去的核电跟现在的核电成本相比已经从原本的每千度123块美元上升到了182块美元等于成长了49%将近一半"},{"start":6635.365,"end":6660.245,"text":"相反的風力和太陽能的成本已經下降了六成和八成因此核電要能夠成為平價電力的來源可能是有點困難那再來就是說綜合上面剛剛所說的一些結論就是說其實修法還是無法解決我們現在面臨到的一個安全問題因為能源這個是我們還是必須務實理性的那如果我們直接討論核廢的"},{"start":6661.806,"end":6679.78,"text":"這個修法的話反而會增加我們的安全風險跟成本負擔我認為我們應該要再繼續加速推動再生能源的發展提升能源效率才能夠去在確保供電穩定與環境保護的平衡之下才能實現永續的能源未來謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員的發言那我們接下來請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":6693.201,"end":6721.436,"text":"請林仁斌準備謝謝主席今天才參加的所謂學者專家有正面有反面我們都給予尊重我們當立法委員就是要反映民情反映社會大家社會大眾所需要河山場我們就講河山場因為河一河二現在已經停掉了我是屏東人我河山場我差不多去"},{"start":6723.424,"end":6748.872,"text":"六七座我想立法委員去河山場實際去看沒有人比我還多次的那我們河 恆春半島四個鄉鎮今天來了我們劉史金恆春鎮鎮長那他也親自來那我們在那邊做了多次的民調贊成河山研議的都高達75%以上"},{"start":6751.138,"end":6764.235,"text":"說好幾次喔然後他們鄉鎮長出來接受那個專訪也都持正面的態度我們河山場兩部機組一年的發電量差不多157億度到160億度"},{"start":6768.666,"end":6794.591,"text":"那每一度賣出來是3塊2左右那每一度的成本是0.8、0.9所以沒來沒去就替台電一年賺3、4百億了啊你給我講一講,你賣錢就發電然後呢,每一年跟另外一年要錢已經要了3千億電還是漲價漲4次我就一直搞不懂"},{"start":6795.939,"end":6815.22,"text":"為什麼一直要養這些再生業者然後他說成本越來越低現在一度還是四塊多五塊多六塊多不是越來越低因為馬英九八年再生能源的比例只有佔5%不到"},{"start":6817.182,"end":6840.38,"text":"蔡英文八年我們的再生能源的比例也是差不多8%所以再生能源怎麼弄 怎麼加就是有它的極限要到十幾%是不可能所以你的能源配比當然是核能發電是相當基礎電力以前三座核能電廠不很順嗎"},{"start":6844.144,"end":6855.675,"text":"河山場有發現過公安事件嗎每年的評比都是世界前五名那個小公安事件沒有核能本身的問題核爐子沒有問題啦"},{"start":6857.366,"end":6881.167,"text":"都是那些配電設備或颱風來,我屏東人我又不在關心屏東,我不是笑的然後一天到晚用石化,最高八十幾%都是用石化新南火力發電廠、大林火力發電廠等等等等我們屏東有夠衰啦,站不會保衰中南山脈的高度一直往下,就是延伸到仿寮再往下"},{"start":6882.523,"end":6909.388,"text":"整個所有的空屋都到泰晤潮州來義那邊就卡在那裡每天都是紙包一年365天將近300天是紙包所以我們那邊的人就要承受這些PM2.5 PM10 肺腺癌 心血管疾病 不孕症 什麼都來了我們在那邊我就常常在想說要不要去圍大林發電廠帶鄉親去圍"},{"start":6912.379,"end":6934.527,"text":"這是事實啊我們學者專家講什麼我們都尊重但是我要把事實給大家看川普總統一上台就說光電不要用什麼用石化用核能川普不就笑了我們這邊的人每一個學者專家都是第一等聰明的日本的核電廠一個一個又恢復為什麼他們配筆受不了嘛"},{"start":6938.26,"end":6951.864,"text":"所以他們的海嘯之後,他們全部關掉,現在一家一家恢復了。那光電,我們的經濟部長突發奇想,說要去禮宋島種電,然後海底電纜送到八旦島,然後從恆春上來,然後進入河山廠的配電系統。我問河山廠廠長,我說是可行嗎?他說可行。"},{"start":6961.96,"end":6990.196,"text":"但是我們經濟部長說一坨電不足五坨結果昨天 前天又改口了所以那個電纜送不過來因為巴士海峽最深的地方兩千多公尺所以那個海底電纜的困難度非常高那昨天就說那不就用能源船載過來那在能源船載的成本就要五塊五一度所以喔 我不說的啦只是參考用"},{"start":6992.011,"end":7009.982,"text":"從菲律賓、李宋島種太陽能光電板已經有台灣的能源廠商跑去那邊做了要開始啦全世界光電板拉最長的是新加坡它在澳洲在PERS那邊博士那邊做光電"},{"start":7011.175,"end":7038.761,"text":"那把海底電纜送到新加坡送了三千多公里這是全世界最誇張的那他的能源耗損一K40幾%那新加坡因為地小人稠所以他沒有辦法光電只好跑到澳洲大英國寫的國家所以這樣繞過來他們值不值得我不知道啦他們自己去算所以我在這邊跟大家報告我們希望"},{"start":7040.336,"end":7050.182,"text":"我們的光電越來越多然後把整個人家說國破三合在那我們現在是國債三合破"},{"start":7051.124,"end":7074.557,"text":"每一個光電廠都是用粉泥土那個土地將來要護原都是極度的困難所以我們看了都是整個環境破壞成這個樣子我們覺得很荒唐台灣還有這個能力去破壞山林整個延山公路要砍20萬棵樹然後要做光電板"},{"start":7076.191,"end":7083.418,"text":"這個我們所有的環保單位好像沒有人出來抗爭我又去抗爭三次所以我要跟大家報告事實跟理想是有差距台灣這個基礎能源要怎麼做那燃氣十幾部機組等著要上來"},{"start":7097.113,"end":7117.561,"text":"但是三接四接都還沒有完成四接還要等到2030年所以我們的基礎電力當然核能是最好而且最穩固等到打仗的時候在馬英九時代曾經曾經颱風兩個颱風來造成整個瓦斯船進不來台灣斷氣"},{"start":7124.502,"end":7148.754,"text":"八天 我們的最大 現在是十一天所以跟大家報告 大家都要多方考量那這個法案要不要修或者一定要修 大家共同來參加意見以上 謝謝謝謝蘇清泉委員的發言那我們接下來請林仁斌副教授發言邱碧英副秘書長準備 謝謝"},{"start":7156.509,"end":7184.56,"text":"主席各位先進我是林仁斌很高興受到立院黨團的邀請來這邊做簡單的報告核能發電雖然是能源的議題但是它牽涉到核武的擴散災變的風險還有核廢料的處理還有龐大資金的問題所以它事實上也不是一個單純的能源問題"},{"start":7186.485,"end":7212.864,"text":"那台灣現在的核電廠的現狀如表所示那最近中研院蕭新華老師的民調顯示了竟然還有八成的民眾不曉得事實上在去年一整年核電佔我們發電的比例已經不到10%今年剩下的核三廠二號機"},{"start":7215.598,"end":7239.359,"text":"也只有3到4%的電量所以核電沒有的核電事實上就經濟部的資料來看我們也沒有缺電好那核電廠的運作當然過程當中台灣很幸運天佑台灣所以縱使有大小事故但是目前來看"},{"start":7240.526,"end":7262.273,"text":"也沒有發生重大的事情所以我每次只要站上這個台上我就要感謝台電參與核電廠運作這四五十年來還有核安會的管制人員要表達我最深的謝意所以在我們今年5月17號核三廠二號機"},{"start":7265.634,"end":7289.313,"text":"順利的安全停機之後那台灣就很自然、順然、合法、合治的成為亞洲第一個承用核電而能廢核的國家這個是受到亞洲各種跟世界的這個矚目為什麼我們會不再發展核電也許很多人都已經遺忘"},{"start":7290.919,"end":7317.801,"text":"今年是日本福島核災發生的14週年日本的福島核災敲醒了台灣知道核能的安全並沒法保障所以台灣跟日本同處於地震帶類似的複合式災難如果發生在台灣地狹人仇的台灣那後果將不堪設想甚至導致台灣的滅亡"},{"start":7320.035,"end":7347.021,"text":"所以這種狀況並沒有改變核電在台灣的安全堪慮核廢的命題更是難解所以經過了數十年的論辯我們才決定不再發展核電也才有現在的2025核電的歸零開始有了民進黨政府2016年開始的減煤增氣展綠非核的能源轉型"},{"start":7348.983,"end":7374.429,"text":"現在我們所討論的這些修法我們現行的法令都是參照國際核能管制的一些規範定的是為了要確保核能安全定定的制度任意的修改法條不但破壞了核安法制的規範的嚴謹性也會提高核電發生的機率"},{"start":7376.345,"end":7391.855,"text":"特別是這些運轉已經40多年的老舊電廠當初都是為了發展核武而建並沒有經過詳細的地質調查環境影響的評估就設置如果要繼續運轉一定要經過很多詳實的調查"},{"start":7394.298,"end":7409.167,"text":"那從剛剛的報告都曉得目前的這些核電廠問題重重內部的運作還有地底下的斷層所以事實上是沒辦法承受類似像福島核災這樣子的衝擊更嚴重的是"},{"start":7412.54,"end":7439.082,"text":"根據Nature的研究全球最危險的三座核電廠台灣就佔了兩座核一核二在翻圓30公里內人口數就高達五六百萬這也是為什麼我們要不再發展核電的原因在這樣子的一個狀態之下假設修法通過相信行政院也不敢貿然言議"},{"start":7441.147,"end":7465.574,"text":"所以台灣應該做的是早日告別核電而不是擁抱老舊的核電廠事實上這些核電也不屬於國際供應鏈所承諾RA100的再生能源所以核電是解決氣候變遷的萬靈丹嗎根據IEA的這個預估剛剛謝會長有提到到2050年再生能源的比例是89%"},{"start":7467.264,"end":7491.753,"text":"核電只有8%所以核電根本不是減碳的主要能源雖然核電是比火力發電的二氧化碳排放少但是鈾礦開採燃料的提煉電廠的興建到整個核廢料處理整體的排放量還是比再生能源多得多所以台灣要做的是發展再生能源"},{"start":7493.151,"end":7517.09,"text":"那沒有核電就會缺電嗎?從經濟部的資料,未來電力的供給是無虞的剛剛經濟部次長也做了相關的表述那台灣核三廠一號機、二號機在10月21號停機41天大修的過程當中備載容量都可以維持在一定的水準那更是提供了非核家園不缺電的實證"},{"start":7520.492,"end":7540.226,"text":"再來我要強調的是有些人是以能源安全的理由認為核電才能因應外敵的封鎖事實上核電也是進口的能源建立本土多元分散的再生能源才能夠確保台灣的能源自主和能源的安全"},{"start":7541.067,"end":7563.943,"text":"在全世界的兩百多個國家裡頭用核電的只有三十幾個也就是說絕大多數的國家並沒有使用核電比我們經濟還好或一樣的也很多沒有用核電所以台灣要成為非核家園絕對不是特例在COP28 COS29所得到的行動共識也是一樣"},{"start":7564.924,"end":7591.866,"text":"要使再生能源變成容量的三倍全球能源效率要增加目前兩倍這是為什麼因為發展核電沒辦法解決這些問題還會造成核子事故的一些影響從此前昨天已經秀出核電的優點不過那些都不是核電有主要的一個缺點"},{"start":7593.13,"end":7611.004,"text":"這些資料不管是現在參討的SMR或者是新型的反應器都有上述的缺點核電不是永續再生的能源核電不是無碳的能源核廢料沒辦法處理會成為大家的負擔"},{"start":7613.137,"end":7634.985,"text":"沒辦法保證核電的安全核電廠不是便宜的能源他的興建跟廚藝的成本都非常的高再來核工業的發展也是有違世界的和平會讓大家遭受核武的威脅永和者大概不患無幾個觀點缺電大漲價以廢發電"},{"start":7641.801,"end":7659.671,"text":"國土摧殘再來就是這個種種永和的思想裡頭這些雖然使得大家開始有一點波動但是這個相關的論述大家都可以看到這些破除相關母儀師的這個論述好那"},{"start":7665.356,"end":7693.159,"text":"民進黨政府的人員轉型事實上一直走在對的路上所以走對的路一直走做對的事要持續做但我在這裡的表述也是希望所有的政黨政治的工作者都應該站在人民的這一邊所有政黨政治的工作者都應該站在人民這一邊以上 謝謝好 謝謝林仁斌副教授的發言那我們接下來有請邱碧英副秘書長發言 謝謝"},{"start":7703.158,"end":7730.225,"text":"朝委還有各位在場的這個先進貴賓大家早安我是中華民國全國工業總會副秘書長邱碧英我想近臨轉型是國際趨勢但是相較於歐盟國家他們可以互聯電網互相買賣電力那台灣呢受制於海島型的獨立電網結構電力需要自給自足所以我們一直認為核能是非常好的"},{"start":7731.125,"end":7754.252,"text":"这个积载电力因为它有稳定高效价钱合理的优势那根据台电官网我昨天看了一下啊昨天下午两点钟的时候我们火力发电的占比是差不多81.84接近82那其他不管是再生能源呢大概totally大概只有11不到12左右"},{"start":7755.032,"end":7782.159,"text":"所以從上面的數據就可以知道為什麼中南部的空污越來越嚴重尤其是台中的天空以前台中曾經被國人譽為最適合居住的城市因為晴空萬里不缺水但是現在藍天白雲成為絕響我們非常同意和安的重要但是我們更應該重視空污對國人健康損傷的現在進行性"},{"start":7785.789,"end":7802.384,"text":"我们都知道美国加拿大日本韩国都支持在2050年核能可以成为2030年三倍就刚刚叶教授所提到这样一个核能倡议那我们因为基于非核家园的政策所以在5月的时候会全部归零"},{"start":7803.064,"end":7818.121,"text":"在电源开发不易的情况下电从哪里来如果再生能源无法如期达到目标未来如何确保稳定供电无虞以及面对2050年的净零碳排的挑战"},{"start":7819.042,"end":7838.042,"text":"这个即便是不断的调涨电价也没有办法解决电力供需失衡的问题国际原子能总署报告说过去50年来核电减少大约550亿吨的碳排放相当于全球一整年能源相关二氧化碳的排碳量的两倍"},{"start":7839.504,"end":7866.321,"text":"因此延长现在的核能厂的运转连线是最有效的减碳措施国外的学者也曾经提到在安全无虞的状况下延长现有的核电连线是减碳最有效方法之一根据美国核管会的资料截至2024年5月美国有96座反应炉通过延长使用执照审查"},{"start":7867.222,"end":7883.383,"text":"可以使用到60年其中有22座又再次提研译的申请如果通过可以延长到80年那国内有多位著名的核子工程的学者也表示核子反应炉的研译技术并不困难了"},{"start":7884.551,"end":7911.743,"text":"因此要让台电的系统尽快脱离电力不足的泥烙满足国际社会对于减碳的要求以及达到2050年净零摊牌的目标所有能源的来源包括蓝煤 蓝气 再生能源以及核能跟氢能都应该要列入考量而且规划最适合最适切的能源发电结构"},{"start":7912.623,"end":7923.237,"text":"因此重新檢視能源配比跟提供穩定的電力我想穩定非常重要不是有沒有電的問題是目前政府最需要迫切解決的問題"},{"start":7926.944,"end":7946.805,"text":"大家也都听过美国为了要发展半导体产业AI产业跟电动车产业导致用电倍增我想我们情况也是一样所以美国政府担心供电不足所以不只希望境内的核电厂研议还考虑新增核电机组"},{"start":7947.586,"end":7975.166,"text":"那我们也知道其实赖总统在推的五大信赖产业里面不管是半导体或是人工智能的AI产业都需要庞大的电力支引尤其是半导体产业积极扩敞而且它建厂的速度比原来的还要快用电的比重也会更大我想可能2.5都是不够的它的成长尤其当你的基础越来就是你的前面的母数越来越高的时候"},{"start":7976.147,"end":7994.856,"text":"那在这样的情况下这么高的用电需求台湾供电能不能应付政府需要审慎的评估跟考量跟规划从目前整体的电源开发方案来看产业界对于未来稳定供电充满疑虑"},{"start":7996.721,"end":8016.533,"text":"大家都知道台灣以出口為導向在面臨美國歐盟關稅壁壘還有貿易保護的情況之下還有大陸低價競爭的挑戰之下可以說前有狼後有虎所以呢請不要跟我們說這個不要那個不行也不用告訴我們你們應該要提升產業競爭力或是做"},{"start":8020.115,"end":8021.556,"text":"以上是我的发言谢谢大家"},{"start":8051.908,"end":8056.992,"text":"謝謝邱副秘書長那我們接下來有請謝榮介委員發言主席各位學者專家"},{"start":8081.206,"end":8101.863,"text":"各位先生 大家早安這婚姻的問題啊 看到台灣有很多人有的人是用非婚姻加恆的 還是因為他的信念這種偉大的信仰 我個人是非常非常地敬佩"},{"start":8103.257,"end":8123.704,"text":"有的人認為推動婦人可以改善台灣的未來,這我感覺非常有信心我來自南台灣的台南,這是我的故鄉我的故鄉有美好的街坊,漂亮的土地"},{"start":8126.006,"end":8132.711,"text":"當然我也支持以火靈來過渡,來培養新的力量可是我們的執政黨沒有這樣做,它覺得火靈的加分比較對台灣比較適合我也來尊重所以看到它來開發太陽靈發展和風吹發展的時候"},{"start":8152.577,"end":8164.082,"text":"我個人也覺得這樣台灣有一點點希望因為畢竟我們的生活是要進步的那麼在進步的生活裡面每一年的用電的度數就不斷不斷地升高都要考慮身份 生活也要有身份吃一碗大麵 我對十五塊吃到現在五十五塊每一行都在企業這個中間如果聽到電競企業"},{"start":8184.07,"end":8204.348,"text":"人家說 不能企業吃麵的出息 到位就要到消費者的性固定我看到的是 我的土地的米片海米的台北的這個母親 就親像卡車旁邊大一塊一塊的沙龍髮絲一樣你去到我的故鄉台南去看 你的腦袋也會死過去我們所看到的"},{"start":8211.476,"end":8214.517,"text":"那個海浪山 那個天際山 以及這麼漂亮的山峰 土地為什麼今天你看起來 因為太陽能夠發展如果民眾能夠解決臺灣的問題 我也要忍耐一下可是不是這樣 因為有太多狡猾 因為地形的犯罪我簡單在這裡跟大家做一個報告"},{"start":8243.544,"end":8262.811,"text":"世界太陽能發展的新聞出來的介紹在中國大陸的一度電差不多在一公里至一公里所以剛才有人說太陽能這麼小我相信在印度一度電只有一公里至一公里的代表在美國一度電是一公里至三公里"},{"start":8269.744,"end":8273.566,"text":"如果在內地說,一坨太陽磷是2.4元2.6元日本有比較貴的,也是2.6元3.3元而已我們台灣,一坨要5元這裏面有更高的衣顏,還有我們地形的限制所以現年從這裡看起來,我們是沒辦法發展到2.4元的太陽磷"},{"start":8299.189,"end":8301.129,"text":"這是對我們一個先天不足所以大家都要共同努力沒有輪到一個角度你看到這個太陽能公司成立主本業新代表十萬經過四年五年後主本業新代表一百千萬後五億的現在看基礎 內容看一看 我看得很清楚"},{"start":8329.864,"end":8336.046,"text":"原來是犧牲我們無親台大犧牲人民的血汗漂亮的屋檐說好做力量發電但是落地的地比較粗糙在我們的土地下也有它的大街這種太陽林我認可不來有人說在林 福林不是最瘦的"},{"start":8359.636,"end":8363.418,"text":"福林發電不是最便宜的,但是它是比較便宜的但是在台灣它是最便宜的,就要利用土產你看我去南台南,到英安、高考、那邊發電機在做,發電太熱了"},{"start":8385.319,"end":8390.821,"text":"你只要自行車站在旁邊買一包粉凍來你平常吃的阿嬤嘛你這個白色的社群社會我們老外把他吊在那裡不用半點鐘 一地一地 一點一點 阿魯士有羞嗎 頭痛羞啊各位在這裡說 正確沒有絕對的對 沒有絕對的不對"},{"start":8415.367,"end":8417.088,"text":"要怎麼讓人民便利我請教中間的專家我們台灣的超級電腦的勝率現在世界排名如何我們要怎麼發展 他說很壞為什麼 電力沒問題啊沒電 要怎麼有超級電腦沒超級電腦 要怎麼有AI這是公安的問題啊"},{"start":8447.045,"end":8453.747,"text":"我們的工廠要怎麼發電 每天都要看美國大的 看我買什麼的 要贏什麼這就是國安的問題尤其我們城市 它說必要的時候 我們的機動負擔所以今天你這個手法就是要滿足它必要的時候今天如果沒有超情 保守 法律沒有修改"},{"start":8474.01,"end":8478.581,"text":"萬一必要的時候 你我我們 大家就要眼睛睜睜 人最重要的不知道要怎麼應對"},{"start":8482.964,"end":8506.253,"text":"全世界包括日本三一一受到這麼大的傷害傳播不斷地被停止 到今天重啟傳播不再新建 不再新建美國也一樣 澳洲也一樣如果台灣 例外各位學者 各位專家 各位先進我們沒辦法超前部署"},{"start":8507.492,"end":8512.333,"text":"為我們的家孫保留擔保和重新選定的空間我們不用去做任何的決定但是這個法令如果沒有先把酒醃起來像現在萬一受到壓力還要重啟恐怕會來不及啦所以朝廷保守不一定要安全"},{"start":8536.014,"end":8552.771,"text":"不是沒有安全不行啦但是 留給你我大家阿伯 人家說 等你退也就留三千年讓我們大家有淡泊和悲傷的空間讓我們的家屬有淡泊和悲傷的空間 酸澀的空間讓我們的母親在內有淡泊和幸福 純粹的空間謝謝"},{"start":8563.171,"end":8569.654,"text":"謝謝謝龍介委員的發言我們接下來有請柯智恩委員發言高明智教授準備謝謝"},{"start":8575.055,"end":8581.018,"text":"謝謝莊委也感謝今天來到我們現場所有的學者專家我想我們今天坐在這個地方當我是代表背後是國民黨的委員的時候大家都知道我們的立場就誠如我們現在所有的學者專家有些是民進黨委員請來有些是國民黨委員所請來的當你們坐在這個地方的時候呢大家就知道你們誰是永和誰是廢和"},{"start":8600.288,"end":8619.987,"text":"这就是我们今天讨论这件事情最大的问题我们的意识形态其实是往往高于我们专业的一个讨论那我们今天就特别来看看到底核能是不是我们其中的一个选项我必须要说台湾这片美丽的土地我们大家都有权要把它维护"},{"start":8620.527,"end":8630.256,"text":"所以安全絕對是高於一切這一點是前提我們要先完全來確定的不論是說我們要廢核或是我們擁核好像把這個安全問題大家都要在這邊政變這是毫無疑問安全是我們第一首要需要守護的"},{"start":8638.584,"end":8660.902,"text":"那我们就来看看到底核能的选项会不会是我们未来台湾的一个趋势每个人都期待目前来说全世界的一个新纪元的开始的时候呢其实把新的核能当作是一种选项那当然我也聆听到非常多的学者认为肺核也是让台湾在亚洲当中是一个可以被关注的一个焦点"},{"start":8661.883,"end":8687.246,"text":"但是呢我还是要提出来美国已经是把这个能源当作是国安战略的问题的时候那这已经不是牵涉到我们要不要用核电这样的一个问题所以说呢我们今天要特别提到特别是我们这一次的赖总统或是卓院长现实淡淡的告诉我们新的核能可以是一个讨论的一个空间但是它需要更多的社会的一个对话"},{"start":8687.907,"end":8693.59,"text":"那聽君一席一話就如一席話因為講了也還是那麼一席話到底我們社會的一個對話到底在哪裡現在只要把核能問題排在一起大家就會質問核廢料該怎麼樣的處理台灣的斷層該怎麼樣的處理全世界有很多人都使用核能他們為什麼沒有提出核廢料問題因為這是執政黨該解決的"},{"start":8713.24,"end":8734.026,"text":"所以执政党今天坐在这个地方就是要告诉我们你的能源政策倒就把我们带到什么地方去当你开启了新核能可能是未来的选项的时候你有没有告诉我们未来你可以做的事情是什么而不是只有一个社会对话让我们蓝绿两边的学者到现在目前为止还是没有一个交叉点大家从过去到现在"},{"start":8736.627,"end":8743.412,"text":"都是互相在永合 肺合當中不斷地去擴大彼此之間的優缺點但是焦點到底在哪裡我們先來說一下好了當我們問起來我們現在目前為止台電是不是在規劃撤裁核能發電處的時候左院長告訴我 沒有我們不是撤裁只是動態地評估組織的型態適度地配備人力這跟撤裁有什麼兩樣"},{"start":8761.664,"end":8777.988,"text":"现在目前有非常多核电的一个专业人士告诉他说这个东西被测材之后他们只能去看管核废料这不是我说的这是反映出很多专业人力的一个担忧当我们看到教育部留学的奖学金的时候完全看不到核工的影子"},{"start":8778.468,"end":8806.988,"text":"当教育部完全放弃合共人才的时候你今天告诉我新核能可能是一个选项都没有这些人才的时候你如何告诉我在上有非常多清大合共系的教授或者是过去曾经从这个系所毕业的人你们的专业目前来说完全是已经完全断层的对过去你们所付出的这个心力包括过去在台电核电厂里面付出心力的人你难道不觉得非常的有一点的唏嘘的感觉吗"},{"start":8808.249,"end":8824.887,"text":"所以说我们今天讨论这个问题的时候我们再来看一下非核家运的推动从2019年第四次会议上就有共同推动中期暂时储存的设施在2020年第五次会议当中要求台电提出选址的原则五年过去了"},{"start":8825.687,"end":8834.293,"text":"債政府也上台了不僅中期的儲存場遙遙無期非核的小組更是超過四年沒有開會你告訴我全部這些問題你都只能留給社會對話來涵蓋一切嗎所以呢永和到底有沒有什麼樣的待遇代價我們還沒有遇到非核的這個苦果我們已經嘗到但是我必須要說安全還是我們的考量"},{"start":8851.005,"end":8868.665,"text":"我只是在说每一次问到这个问题呢问到我们电费的问题每个人都提到这个部分但是呢永远是把它推给国际燃料价格电价过低欧乌战争之后基本上国际原油的材料价格已经是回稳的这已经不是一个例子了"},{"start":8869.105,"end":8874.652,"text":"燃料支出的成本大幅下降到1130億但是我們購電的成本已達到3095億這個是一個事實當然我們不能忽略我們的安全但是我們未來整個經濟的一個發展我覺得這個部分裡面完全歸咎歸咎於台電"},{"start":8887.947,"end":8906.739,"text":"每一次都在期求我们能够拨出1000亿但是台电的自发的费用就跟购电的费用来说是不成比例的你用电越多你购电越多台电的亏损就越大不是每年拨补1000亿2000亿就有办法解决的那我们的政府在面对这样问题的时候"},{"start":8907.159,"end":8932.578,"text":"你为什么只丢出一个社会的共识有可能讨论但是你讨论的空间在哪里让得我们今天坐在这个地方蓝绿的学者还是必须在这个地方争辩到底核能好或是不好所以一个政策的拟定很重要就像你认为光电光电的光电板难道所带给环境的污染你没有考虑过吗30年40年之后你所留下来的这个所谓的污染"},{"start":8932.998,"end":8949.012,"text":"难道会比维和废掉还要更不严重吗但是你已经锁定的再生能源是我们的发展我们也完全同意啊可是呢你对于所影响的这个环境你影响农民里面大量的使用废掉的光电板的这部分难道你没有考虑过吗"},{"start":8949.372,"end":8974.925,"text":"所以一个政策你如果制定完毕之后接下来我们该怎么讨论核的安全我们该怎么讨论未来的核废料怎么分来讨论你一个目标设定完之后你就有后续的方法现在完全就是摆烂的一个态度就是我们今天坐在这个地方我必须要说开了多少次的会议大家还是各自言而治然后呢最后你们用强行通过的方法然后制造社会更多的纷乱"},{"start":8975.385,"end":8983.868,"text":"那你就大膽的告訴我們嘛以後完全沒有核的這個可能你為什麼要開一個空間讓大家覺得新式的核能可以符合社會的一個趨勢然後呢嘎然而止然後讓大家繼續再繼續吵架那這樣有任何的意義嗎所以在安全的原則在永續的原則之下面我們是一個很卑微的祈求我們政府單位拿出一點 guts"},{"start":8997.833,"end":9005.438,"text":"告訴我們你們真正覺得符合世界的趨勢在安全的趨勢之下不要永遠就告訴我每次早一提出來你就告訴我核廢料擺你家嗎核廢料該怎麼樣你先把忠誠的核廢料儲存的這個地方選子的目的不斷地告訴我們然後告訴我們一堆抗爭然後你就兩手一攤丟給社會共識就是社會沒有共識才需要你政府站出來如果社會有共識的話我還要你政府幹什麼"},{"start":9023.809,"end":9043.292,"text":"这就是我们今天非常沉重的一个呼吁不要从我第九任当立委到现在为止我还是要讨论同一个问题然后到最后到底要不要演绎四十年六十年到最后就付诸于蓝绿之后再来一个对决这绝对不是一个真的有为政府该给放给我们人民该做的一件事情谢谢"},{"start":9046.298,"end":9054.053,"text":"謝謝柯志恩委員的發言那我們接下來有請高明志清大科技法律研究所教授高教授發言"},{"start":9058.803,"end":9082.746,"text":"委員以及各位與會的先進大家早安然後今天很高興能夠有這個機會受邀來這裡然後讓我來針對這一題然後我其實今天一直聽到現在啦我覺得說大家的這個討論其實比較著重在其實還是回到傳統的反核啊或者或者永和的這個辯論然後我是把它拉高到一個我自己常年來觀察這個議題的角度特別是"},{"start":9083.266,"end":9098.841,"text":"回到法律面然後來探討說這個非核家園跟這個核電演繹的這兩件事情其實是可以一起來看的然後其實多年來我觀察這個議題很久了啦可是很多大部分其實都是在政策面跟環境面的討論然後比較少法律面的或幾乎沒有"},{"start":9099.241,"end":9127.11,"text":"所以我今天其實是還蠻樂見說法務部竟然難得在這樣的場合其實可以發言然後我簡單的心得就發現到很好玩的地方是編碼時期一路以來在推動非核交易的密度其實是遠大於菜的然後現在很樂見其實在目前這個階段其實有這麼多的法案百家爭鳴我覺得非常不錯然後至於我為什麼會來談這個主題其實我2000年的時候那時候我還是碩士班研究生我就已經開始"},{"start":9128.07,"end":9141.442,"text":"研擬一個可能大家很多人都沒有聽過的法案叫核能電廠提前處理條例的草案然後所以我常年來其實我每十年就會寫一篇文章來談這個非核家園的回顧這樣然後所以我原則上應該是這一題我看了滿久的"},{"start":9143.624,"end":9172.361,"text":"然後甚至英文的我還把台灣的很多的議題介紹到國際上面然後大家說我你們有看到我特別highlight一個就是說我覺得我們台灣我一直覺得我們台灣雖然說沒有趕上其他國家在做這個非核家園可是我們或許有一個可以是第一個叫做第一個不負責任的非核家園這是一個我自己的觀察後面會再跟大家分享為什麼然後一開始其實回到大家在談非核家園反核就是核電反國外的問題其實"},{"start":9174.402,"end":9201.533,"text":"從我法律觀點可能今天會提到蠻多讓大家蠻震驚的資訊第一個資訊就是我去回顧長久以來從2001年2月13號提出的朝野共識的非核家園一路到現在我做了盤查針對重要的核電議題的盤查我發現到其實沒有一個版本是一樣的比如說曾經有一個版本的非核家園在扁政府的後期的非核家園甚至覺得合適要興建到重啟"},{"start":9202.873,"end":9221.804,"text":"他覺得是非核家園所以有很多非核家園概念大家其實一直都以為是然後這裡這一頁其實非常重要就是常見的誤解大家都以為環境基本法的非核家園就是核電只能運轉40年其實從來沒有我把歷史文件的立法說明欄找出來立法說明欄"},{"start":9223.525,"end":9249.883,"text":"完全沒有提到非核家園是什麼他談的其實只是輻射防護啊然後電磁波這些有利輻射的健康影響完全沒有提到非核家園非常的有趣然後然後所以就變成說其實我會去看啦其實非核家園假如一個國家要推非核家園其實它有蠻多元素當然說核心的元素都是在處理既有興建中興建核電廠的命運然後附水才會處理像今天談很多的這個總體能源工序這個問題其實是已經到"},{"start":9250.623,"end":9275.364,"text":"很後面的然後甚至我們曾經台灣有一個版本還會談反核武擴散的這個部分可是這都是很附屬的核心其實在處理既有的相關的電廠興建中未來的然後所以就變成說它的概念內涵大概是長蠻多圈的可是當然說非核合法案的核心當然是要處理既有電廠的命運也包括說今天我們要談核能研議的也是在談既有電廠的命運那都是其實是那個什麼說爭論的焦點這樣"},{"start":9277.245,"end":9296.969,"text":"然後其實台灣有趣的地方是台灣其實迄今沒有任何法律在處理非核家園的核心議題本來有是電業法的95條可是它被公投否決掉了所以其實就沒有了所以其實我這一頁其實也要跟大家再度強調的台灣其實從來沒有什麼非核家園台灣從來的都是正常核電家園核電本來就運轉40年我們也沒有提早"},{"start":9304.231,"end":9323.223,"text":"因為世界各國非核佳育其實都是提早的所以我要講正常國家到底是怎麼對付非核佳育其實就兩件事公投或民意基礎有公投的國家會以公投沒有公投的國家像德國德國最近大家都說他要回來了嘛因為民意支持很了然後另外很重要要有特殊的法案"},{"start":9324.063,"end":9348.757,"text":"處理核電的套牢成本就是核四的套牢三千億然後比如說或者說因為你核電要提早要怎麼說提前除役的時候會面臨你要負責任的去處理高低放的法案所以其實像很大部分國家其實都會處理像德國就有兩個版本的草案在處理那台灣的非核很有趣是完全沒有公投或民意基礎"},{"start":9349.827,"end":9368.05,"text":"因為公投已經被推翻了可是在國外其實你要推翻你要說這個2018年年底的公投無效你不能說它只有兩年效力而是你要有下一個反核的公投把它推翻掉可是完全沒有然後第二個民調其實現在市面上的民調其實一面倒的幾乎都支持核電嘛"},{"start":9368.45,"end":9389.675,"text":"所以其實台灣是沒有這個基礎的那德國負責任的非橫向政府大概做什麼他們避免以美養綠所以他們有無媒家園的時程2038年而且他們政府絕對不會朗朗和後端做不到很難處理沒有廁所沒有廁所這一類的而是認真面對因為他們提出兩個版本草案然後德國其實最重要的地方是在這邊"},{"start":9390.515,"end":9409.246,"text":"他們會發展便宜的再生能源不會像台灣只發展貴的再生能源然後最後面這塊很重要就是說他不會拿全民的錢來補貼台電補貼電力公司他不會拿全民的甚至未來我們下一步要用全體股民的錢股市股民的錢然後來讓中鋼這些產業承擔"},{"start":9412.928,"end":9434.893,"text":"承擔這個非核的成本這是非常不可思議的所以我們那至於法律面上我簡單的說就是我們台灣很可惜啦我們是從正常的法治國家到這幾年變成落後的法治國因為其實我們早期其實在這個Fukushima之後其實大量的非核法案特別是在野黨草野都有然後在野黨非常多版本可是我們最近之後其實幾乎都沒有"},{"start":9435.333,"end":9463.498,"text":"然後其實是有好好機會處理非核議題啦可是就變成說因為陳其邁委員其實之前曾經提出過所以我這邊其實在這一呼就是說其實要合法的終結核電的命運其實我歡迎說因為我今天看到那個提案的版本幾乎都是在野黨我其實建立行政院版或者說在座的環團朋友們就參考我的法條你們也提一個非核法案大家來對決看看到底誰過吧然後條文都幫你們寫好了你們就參考這一頁就好"},{"start":9464.818,"end":9482.243,"text":"好 然後所以就變成我們發現說為什麼台灣是一個不負責任的因為我們不負責任不尊重民意不尊重法治甚至還要準備吸供全台灣股民的錢這是一個非常不可思議的非核駕馭然後最後我這邊要簡單給大家看就是說台灣跨沒有核電的樣子是什麼樣子"},{"start":9484.689,"end":9494.109,"text":"這個是2023年的其實你可以看到台灣的電力排濫係數就已經非常高而且還是有三個月核三的一號機的時候所以你都可以看到美國"},{"start":9496.029,"end":9514.179,"text":"其實表現都比德國跟南韓好你們看這張圖然後這張圖可以看到嚴重性就是全世界高碳電力的國家台灣排第十一名然後排在前面的全部都是我們傳統覺得可能不是那麼進步不是那麼製造業大國的落後國家所以這個詞有點偏執"},{"start":9515.703,"end":9544.679,"text":"所以其實我會覺得說所以從近年的角度其實變成說我們希望說還是要讓核電回歸或者說讓大家有一個正常的討論然後我很高興說今天有很多法案啦所以其實台灣終於又可以變成正常的法治國家好 謝謝各位好 謝謝高教授的發言那我們接下來有請林正元綠色公民行動聯盟的研究員林研究員發言待會徐益臻委員請準備"},{"start":9547.121,"end":9573.813,"text":"主席 各位委員 在場先請大家好我是綠色公民行動聯盟的研究員林鎮元很感謝立法院教育文化委員會給民間團體機會來到立法院表達我們的意見在本次公聽會開會之前我們收到了開會通知單以及討論提綱顯見本次的公聽會根本沒有要討論目前國民黨與民眾黨所提出來的九個不同版本的核子反應器設置管制法的修法草案也沒有要討論核電研議的安全與成本的問題也甚至是核廢料處置問題礙於時間有限"},{"start":9575.774,"end":9577.985,"text":"我在會議之前有提供我們的書面資料大家可以詳細閱讀"},{"start":9580.046,"end":9606.587,"text":"因此我的簡報今天在著重於釐清本次工廳會提綱重的問題首先我們必須澄清全世界沒有所謂的核能復興根據2024年世界核能產業報告指出全球的核能佔比持續在下降裝置容量也在下降新建核電廠的國家也在減少全球核能佔比從1996年的高峰17.5%下降至2023年全球核能只剩下9.1%全球的核能仍是在衰退的狀況"},{"start":9607.688,"end":9627.383,"text":"也因此在COP28當中更多的國家是願意支持再生能源擴展三倍核能三倍的這些聲明只是一個場外的倡議並非是COP的正式結論我們必須搞清楚什麼是正式結論什麼只是民間外面的倡議這樣子"},{"start":9629.628,"end":9645.162,"text":"再來是在提綱中也很關注美國的核電的發展這也是社會所關注的議題但事實上美國早就沒有大規模興建核電廠他們的基礎的平均年齡也是全世界最老的目前全世界的平均基礎年齡是31.4年可是美國是42.7年"},{"start":9649.125,"end":9670.716,"text":"在西二兩千年之後美國只有兩座新增的反應爐動工也就是位於喬治亞州的Vogue核電廠3號機及4號機原定於2016年及2017年完工但是工期延宕至2023年的7月及2024年的4月耗時15年以上兩部成本的機組從140億美元暴增到368.5億美元相當於1兆1917億新台幣成為全世界有史以來最貴的核電廠"},{"start":9677.759,"end":9692.875,"text":"也因此美國目前沒有任何在興建中的核電廠如此昂貴的核電廠台灣負擔得起嗎前面的產業界代表說要核電廠那一座6000億的核電廠你們負擔得起嗎接著我要談SMR的問題這也是大家很關注的問題"},{"start":9694.366,"end":9717.643,"text":"美國旗艦型SMR的計畫NewScale計畫原本與猶他州市政電力聯合系統簽訂了一個六部機組合約第一部機組原本要在2029年運轉其餘五座機組將於2030年運轉然而在2023年11月8日由於成本的暴增電力公司宣布解約NewScale也宣布終止該專案美國目前沒有任何在動工的SMR"},{"start":9718.263,"end":9739.795,"text":"根據美國經濟與金融分析研究所的研究指出NewScale的單位發電成本從2021年的58美元兆瓦時在2023年的1月增加至89美元兆瓦時若扣除美國政府的補貼其單位發電成本更高達119美元兆瓦時將是光電加上儲能系統的單位發電成本的5倍以上"},{"start":9740.495,"end":9749.984,"text":"更別提美國核管會前主委麥克法蘭的專業期刊他有經過通常審查的期刊指出SMR的核廢料將會是傳統反應爐的30倍連美國電力公司都不要的SMR台灣都嫌貴的SMR台灣的工商業界要引進嗎接著我要談日本的問題"},{"start":9762.642,"end":9787.683,"text":"日本的發展它根本還沒走出福島核災的影響在福島核災前日本有54座反應爐災後因為安全成本的跟這個安全包繩的提升有22座反應爐除以目前只有12座反應爐運轉中但是核能發電的占比從核災前的49%下降到目前只有5.6%日本政府今年2月所公布的能源基本計畫中所採取支持核電立場但是在其重啟的這個政策緩慢這個"},{"start":9789.204,"end":9810.551,"text":"政府所做的這個核電目標被批評不現實評估中甚至包含去年重啟審查中不合格因為下面有斷層而不合格的敦賀核電廠二號機以及在能登半島地震中受災的治賀核電廠一二號機以及延宕多年的博奇義與核電廠以及未完成的大間核電廠東電東通核電廠一號機刻意低估了核電建設中所遇到爭議與安全問題"},{"start":9811.652,"end":9816.078,"text":"韓國也是很多人說有核電台電就不會虧損但事實上就算韓國的核電佔比20%在2020年中也因為烏俄戰爭的影響能源成本的上升韓國電力公司的總負債已達1470億美元約等同於5.8兆新台幣"},{"start":9829.963,"end":9855.372,"text":"接著我們要談核電研議的一些問題我們曾聽很多永和人士說核電廠可以通過進行大修剪查出設備老化的問題這根本是內行人說外行話因為有許多的設備例如反應爐、壓力容器、鋼結構管道、電纜、鋼筋混凝土等是無法被更換的我們必須強調沒有任何的人造物是可以避免老化故障的其設備老化的風險在國際科學界中以欲光取勸來呈現越老的核電廠風險越高我在我的書面當中有非常明確地提出來"},{"start":9856.792,"end":9877.243,"text":"以上的風險,如果核電廠貿然研議,將會成為一個未保蛋,最後的這些風險將由人民來承擔。接著我要談核電研議的問題,核電研議的成本也不是永和人士說的那麼便宜,以美國加州魔鬼股為例,美國加州魔鬼股與台灣核生產有許多類似之處,例如軍衛吸入電器的產品,都運轉40年,都有兩部機組,都提供當地6%的電力,也面對著大斷層的威脅。"},{"start":9882.148,"end":9909.506,"text":"加州魔鬼谷的业主PG&E电力公司为研议所需的这些设备更新燃料的这些添购作业向加州已经申贷了14亿美元根据PG&E向加州公用事业委员会所提出的电价调涨的申请所提供的数据该电厂研议5年的成本是118亿美元像约等于3892亿新台币换算成每千度的成本是3331元到4321元之间绝非便宜的选项"},{"start":9910.347,"end":9919.601,"text":"目前美國在2009年到2025年間有23座核電廠因為成本的因素因為老化的因素提前除役"},{"start":9920.461,"end":9944.437,"text":"因為他們沒辦法再繼續負擔這些核電廠所以他們提前除役大家可以思考美國核電廠都那麼貴想要推銷核電廠的那些人動機為何今天我要談以國安理由這件事情去談核電廠是否應該保留大家可能都沒有都已經忘記在前兩年烏克蘭的札波羅核電廠甚至都已經被俄羅斯給攻擊轟炸飛彈甚至以距離那邊已經不遠了核電廠在戰爭中當然是會被攻擊的目標"},{"start":9945.97,"end":9965.957,"text":"接著我要談核廢料如果繼續運轉核電廠只會產生更多的核廢料在朗主席跟新北市長都曾經說過沒辦法處理核廢料就沒有資格使用核電目前高階核廢料的燃料房空間廚房空間已經已滿目前核一核二甚至它反應爐心中還有燃料棒低階核廢料還目前存放在各個廠區內跟蘭嶼也雖然有選址條例但卡關無法執行"},{"start":9967.225,"end":9974.054,"text":"如果沒辦法處理核廢料,核電就是不爭議的能源。因此我們主張,老舊核電廠在釐清核安疑慮之前,不應該研議。謝謝大家。"},{"start":9995.199,"end":10012.346,"text":"謝謝主席在座的各位專家學員大家好我想能源是近代文化的基石而且能源穩定的供應是國家持續發展的一個經濟命脈沒有電一切都將停擺那台灣的經濟奇蹟靠的是穩定的電力支持從半導體到高科技的產業從醫療設備到日常靠的是穩定的電力支撐"},{"start":10021.93,"end":10048.987,"text":"这些都离不开稳定的能源供应然而如今我们却面临一个残酷的事实就是台湾的电已经不够用了当半导体与AI产业扩增之后将进一步出现大量用电的需求根据112年度的全国电力资源供需报告113年到117年间全国用电需求的年平均成长率将达2.5%"},{"start":10051.608,"end":10073.638,"text":"至119年全国电力需求也比现在增加12到13%其中AI科技产业的电力需求更是呈现爆炸式的增长预估到117年将比112年成长8倍以上然而在这样的情况之下政府却仍然执迷于不切实际的能源政策"},{"start":10074.218,"end":10096.256,"text":"一方面高喊發展綠能一方面卻讓企業和民眾承受電價上漲供電吃緊的壓力綠能雖然是未來的發展方向但技術尚未完全成熟發電不穩定成本更是高昂根本沒有辦法取代機載電力我們不能再沉溺於理想我們必須要正視現實"},{"start":10098.197,"end":10118.362,"text":"台灣需要的是穩定的機載電力和電是其中一個選項台灣不能缺電而過去幾年來台灣的大停電的事件屢見不鮮從興達電廠事故到全台的大規模限電這些不僅僅是影響民生更嚴重的衝擊到企業對台灣的信心"},{"start":10119.802,"end":10143.45,"text":"針對近來台積電宣布擴大赴美投資一千億美元的這事件知名的半導體分析師陸行之更在臉書提到台積電擴大赴美台灣缺電可能是一個重要的考量之一這是一個令人震驚的警訊台積電是台灣的富庫 國神山象徵著我們的科技實力與經濟命脈"},{"start":10145.231,"end":10162.214,"text":"然而如果連台積電都擔心台電供電不穩甚至因此而加快海外的佈局我們還能夠假裝問題不存在嗎我們還能夠忽視積載電力不足的問題如何解決核電絕對是其中的一種方法"},{"start":10163.015,"end":10186.258,"text":"而且全世界都在重新擁抱核能只有台灣還在猶豫美國、加拿大、日本等22國已經在2023年底的聯合國氣候峰會共同發表聯合聲明承諾在2050年前讓全球的核能發電量增加三倍日本也已經通過了法案"},{"start":10187.359,"end":10208.918,"text":"將核電廠研議至60年而美國則有94座的這個核反應爐獲得研議的一個許可最高可以運轉到80年而比利時法國等國家也都採取類似的措施確保能源能夠穩定的供應反觀台灣政府就還在對核電做諸多的限制任由缺電的風險日據的加劇"},{"start":10211.46,"end":10218.347,"text":"而且今年的五月最後一座核電廠就要除役了這不僅僅是能源政策的錯誤更是對產業對人民生活的無情傷害有人擔心核廢料的問題這當然是需要謹慎處理的一個議題然而核廢料真的無法解決嗎"},{"start":10231.061,"end":10250.233,"text":"事實上全球已經有成熟的處理技術法國、芬蘭都已經建立生成地質處置設施DGR而美國、日本等國也都在推動先進的核燃料回收技術讓核廢料的體積跟毒性大幅的降低我們與其恐懼不如正視問題"},{"start":10251.934,"end":10276.036,"text":"好好的來去了解怎麼來積極解決這些問題台灣有智慧有能力有人才絕對可以思考我們怎麼樣來去建立符合台灣環境條件的核廢料處理機制而不是因業廢食讓核能成為禁忌的話題台灣需要穩定的電力跟需要合理的電價當綠能建置成本居高不下"},{"start":10277.057,"end":10292.978,"text":"燃氣發電要受國際能源價格的波動影響電價調漲又可能隨時停電這已經成為台灣民生跟企業界最大的隱憂甚至在台的歐美商日商也都多次警告高昂的電價跟缺電將讓台灣失去競爭力"},{"start":10295.581,"end":10308.17,"text":"甚至迫使企業將產線外移我們難道眼睜睜看著台灣的企業一間間的離開工作機會一個一個流失嗎我們難道要讓年輕人面對高房價高物價現在還要面對高電價嗎"},{"start":10310.02,"end":10336.809,"text":"如果我們今天不做出正確的選擇未來的台灣恐怕將不再是產業重鎮而是能源危機下的受害者從國際能源的供需趨勢來看核電 核能 能是重要的選項之一美國 歐洲 日本 韓國都在做核電廠研議的計畫而這次的修法就是要讓政府擁有更靈活的調節空間讓安全無虞的核電機組能夠繼續運轉避免能源供應失衡"},{"start":10339.83,"end":10368.61,"text":"台湾在全球的竞争中能够站稳脚步我们必须让政策回归理性让能源选择回归科学确保台湾不会因为这些短视近利的政策而陷入能源的困境核电演绎不是政治问题而是攸关台湾未来的生存问题是我们这一态必须负起的责任台湾不能缺点核能不能放弃这也是我们必须做出的选择"},{"start":10369.691,"end":10372.814,"text":"這樣我們現在就開始行動一起為台灣的未來而努力謝謝"},{"start":10387.964,"end":10415.229,"text":"好 謝謝主席剛剛一輪這樣子聽下來這個應該是從上一個會期其實我們都一直不斷地在討論就是延逸跟重啟的這樣子的一個問題上個會期其實我都已經有提到了這個藍白的版本從之前就一直說是執政黨錯誤的能源政策導致所以只要法規上說不行我就要用巨嬰式的修法把它修到可以為止但是我們剛剛其實聽了很多的專家學者"},{"start":10418.17,"end":10442.237,"text":"也特別提到當全世界的核能占比是全球目前都在下降當中連同日本從福島核災之後他們也在重新的考量究竟核電的存放的一些問題那當這個安全為首要我們跟日本是一樣的地處在所謂的地震的斷層的這樣子的一個重要的一個位置上面"},{"start":10442.997,"end":10458.617,"text":"到底安全大家把它放在哪裡只顧經濟不顧安全難道是我們要重啟核電最重要的一個這樣子的考量嗎如果這個考量沒有放在第一位為什麼又要重啟核電"},{"start":10459.838,"end":10473.576,"text":"那我再次的強調目前核三廠二號機是台灣最後一座運轉中的核電機組那也預計在五月要除役台灣的能源發展即將要邁入新的一個階段那剛剛有提到"},{"start":10476.32,"end":10495.214,"text":"福島核災之後其實老舊核電廠不研議曾經會是台灣的所有的共識包含民間包含我們中央那但是在過去這14年已經過去了國民黨的立場這個著是今非這14年來其實有很多的社會公民的意見"},{"start":10496.621,"end":10514.377,"text":"也為所謂的台灣的環境永續要付諸努力但是呢他們在去年這一整年一直不斷的在重提這個話題將把所有大家在為環境永續的努力全部一筆勾銷再次退回原點"},{"start":10515.558,"end":10530.018,"text":"那這次的這樣子的一個修法呢第一不但不尊重核安管制的一個作業第二也可以迴避了外界對於所謂的老舊核電廠的安全疑慮以及核能安全高放廠的"},{"start":10530.819,"end":10532.92,"text":"高放長紙的設計條例還沒有進展低放儲置的選紙的問題也還沒有突破所以我們怎麼樣能夠讓所謂的已經除役的合廠能夠再研議再重啟"},{"start":10548.027,"end":10562.207,"text":"我想藍白陣營不能把這樣子的一個政治責任以及對於台灣的核能的用電的安全轉諸到我們的下一代讓下一代去承擔這是非常不負責任的一個做法"},{"start":10563.983,"end":10592.602,"text":"講到所謂的老舊的核電廠是不是研議及就章你們有沒有削弱核安的一個機制根據現行的一個法規借領的核電廠必須在執照到期之前的5到15年要提出申請也就是目的要讓主管機關有充足的時間去確認安全無虞的狀況之下才能夠再來談是不是能夠研議但是我們看到以民眾黨的版本為例"},{"start":10594.023,"end":10597.707,"text":"原本呢5到15年的安全檢查被壓縮到只剩下1到6個月等於縮短了90%到98%的時間就算剛剛有人提到所謂的美國的核管會他們在累積多年研議審查經驗過後他們最新的審查的流程仍然需要"},{"start":10616.125,"end":10629.412,"text":"18個月就是一年半的時間我們急救艙的做法能夠這樣子玩這樣子的修法的遊戲嗎再來提到所謂的國民黨委員所提出的一個版本就是核電廠的運營的"},{"start":10631.873,"end":10649.21,"text":"這個年限跟安全的審查是毫無界限可言所以剛剛就像我講的這巨嬰式的修法法規上說不行我就把它修到我認為時間可以為止這是一種負責任的做法嗎另外再提到所謂的老舊核電廠的隱憂因為在這個月的6號核三廠的二號機其實發生了火警"},{"start":10654.955,"end":10676.862,"text":"那我想這個老舊的核電廠在安全的顧慮上其實也都需要我們大家來重視因為隨著所謂的機組設備的一個老化事故頻傳在這個時候要提到所謂的核電廠要演繹要重啟我們到底把安全放在哪裡"},{"start":10677.762,"end":10689.03,"text":"那不論是核電要處理還是要研議核廢料處理的一個問題到目前為止其實沒有一個人能夠說的準到目前為止其實大家是不是都還在迴避這樣的問題核一核二廠的乾式儲存"},{"start":10693.033,"end":10710.365,"text":"設置延宕了多年台電也坦言說這不是技術性的一個卡關合一廠拖了11年才獲核准合二廠則拖了9年才開始動工那麼乾式儲存設施呢算是一種過渡的一個方案並不是最終的處置廠"},{"start":10711.246,"end":10733.103,"text":"那研議將增加有更多的核廢料處理不了現有的一個問題所以我們是不是為下一代又埋下了不負責任的行為這樣子的一個修法的一個狀況那目前全國有九成的所謂的低放廢料仍然是放在所謂的核電廠跟蘭嶼部分的儲存庫的執照分別是在112年到116年之間要到期到底這些核廢料"},{"start":10739.548,"end":10765.725,"text":"要何去何從沒有人回答這個問題之前就要來討論所謂的核能核電廠是不是要重啟是不是要研議大家都覺得好像我們用核電會降低電費但是都沒有把很多的成本跟其他的重要的一個關鍵我舉例來說台電在2014年記得是2014年現在已經是2025年了"},{"start":10769.537,"end":10791.087,"text":"他們評估光是研議最少在2014年他們出估就需要580億而今11年過去了物價跟成本難道都不調整嗎都不用考慮嗎還不用再算3到5年的電廠體檢的一些支出所以大家不斷的在討論說因為電價要調漲"},{"start":10794.369,"end":10815.998,"text":"因為電價調漲我們要求民生會被影響所以這個經濟也會被影響所以我們要來重啟核電但是國民黨民眾黨他們沒有說的是總預算在台電的補助的部分你們刪了一千億啊這一千億"},{"start":10817.239,"end":10842.915,"text":"後來要來轉嫁把安全的問題丟給下一代要來強調核能要重啟這不是巨嬰 那什麼是巨嬰呢以上 謝謝主席謝謝郭委員的發言接下來我們有請游史金游鎮長 屏東縣恆春鎮的鎮長發言那待會有請劉守仁秘書長請準備"},{"start":10850.473,"end":10877.874,"text":"主席 焦佑娜 趙立群委員以及各位委員各位專家寫者 女士 先生各位媒體女士 先生們大家早安從早上我們昨天晚上就上來了一路風塵濮濮那到了今天早上我們進立法院以後就在這個公聽會裡面我們聽到"},{"start":10879.932,"end":10904.963,"text":"有很多專家寫者還有我們的一些民間的那個環保團體大家的論述啦我覺得啦安全一定是第一的啦我站在鄉村河山場現在在我們鄉村站到40幾年 50幾年了嘛我包括四港市的四港我現在要來報告跟各位報告就是說"},{"start":10906.664,"end":10920.412,"text":"河山廠在民國六十幾年開始施工一直到民國七十四年開始轉為電廠運轉在這段時間經過沒有鎖定的空間、沒有鎖定的空域當然就是經過我們所有的鄉親、我們鄉村所有的定民他們的宿客"},{"start":10931.189,"end":10940.675,"text":"因為河岸 河山 河電有問題 有安全顧慮所以站出來說一件事一直到現在已經發電40年了1號機也除役 2號機在5月17號就要除役了"},{"start":10950.254,"end":10965.783,"text":"在這個中間我們鄉村定民一直經過宿客我們也會宿客經過河山場因為說實在的河山場在我們鄉村和我們鄉村定民的相處內是非常融洽"},{"start":10968.664,"end":10988.97,"text":"不然怎麼讓我們了解到河岸因為畢竟我們那裡都比較不正確的人比較沒有特殊的所以地縮方面有比較經過河岸河山場的經營環境的經營之後我們河沿存地面的大家都有所了解到說"},{"start":10990.598,"end":11017.191,"text":"核能安全應該是處於設備已經是發展到可以用的時候呢可以說就是設備沒問題啦現在就是人管理的問題所以我們一直注重到這個管理的問題在核能發展處啦還有我們台電本行公民一直給我們教導啦有時候要教導說核能的安全到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":11018.211,"end":11030.306,"text":"所以我們慢慢地接受到進步前來40年何以河山場1號址除以河山場2號址及5號集結我們漸漸都贊成都接受鄉村店的名義就是接受"},{"start":11034.811,"end":11047.599,"text":"因為面臨到廚藝跟研議的問題嘛所以我們都有在討論到所以鄉村長 台北所內 台北都七星八星都贊成研議啦有人在說研議 那時候是因為在幕府年輕會"},{"start":11050.761,"end":11072.981,"text":"確實慕林經會在我們恆春鎮是一個很大的財源對於我們恆春的弱勢團體包括農漁民、教育都有很大的幫助要來感謝慕林經會所以慕林經會不是最大的問題我們在我們的輿論、我們的媒體也接觸到"},{"start":11077.093,"end":11097.009,"text":"核能 發電 電力是國家的一個經濟動力的來源所以在這個部分我們贊成說因為國家不能弱下來國家一定要強盛尤其是在這個時空時空背景裡面我們一定要更強所以我們一家"},{"start":11099.52,"end":11118.196,"text":"今天最主要就是要表示說一個設備它是安全的管理我們要強調的是管理把河山廠跟我們核能化電廠要來拜託他們在河山這麼安全就是你們管理優好的企業所以有真正"},{"start":11118.977,"end":11143.525,"text":"我們的鄉親會心動說 何能需要言語呢今天有介紹我們的專家寫者兩方面的論戰啦 我希望我們論戰會有結果到底言語或是廚藝 依你們的專家意見 依你們的學術經驗來做決定我們地方人士 當然我們會支持言語 但是我們會遵守"},{"start":11144.325,"end":11167.79,"text":"國家所決定因為畢竟我們都是同一個國家的一個人民所以非常高興今天有辦法來到立法院的公聽會來表達我們鄉村庭的定民的心願我們所重調的就是我們為了慕林經會支持園域我們是為了國家的安全國家的"},{"start":11168.71,"end":11175.516,"text":"雄壯來支持這個原例最後祝大家身體健康感謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":11197.717,"end":11221.009,"text":"我們會議主席那各位專家先進大家早安那我是中華民國全國商業總會秘書長劉守仁那我在這邊代表本會有幾點發言第一個穩定供電那應被視為經濟競爭力的一個基礎前提那從產業界的角度來出發那個"},{"start":11223.044,"end":11235.889,"text":"企業用電無虞才有可能是一個長遠發展的一個基礎那另外對橋外投資在台灣穩定投資而言供電穩定才能讓他們安心投資在台灣"},{"start":11237.971,"end":11254.106,"text":"第二點在能源政策的規劃上它應該是一個永續的政策電力供應不應該是階段性的決策政府也常常跟企業說至少幾年不缺電或是2030或2032之前我們不會缺電"},{"start":11258.71,"end":11279.235,"text":"我想這樣的一個說法對企業來講是不具安全感的所以企業產業希望政府給我們的一個保證是政府的能源政策是永續無虞的第三點我們應該思考多元能源配置的一個選項"},{"start":11282.475,"end":11298.927,"text":"台灣的進口能源依存度在過去二十幾年來都達到大概都在百分之九十七左右這樣的一個程度所以目前來講我們的能源都持續照都需要進口"},{"start":11302.955,"end":11327.811,"text":"因為最近就是這幾年的俄烏戰爭然後中東局勢的地緣政治相關的問題造成我們現在全球能源的一個市場劇烈的動盪所以降低地緣政治的影響的積載電力是我們國家應該是要追求的一個選項我想我們"},{"start":11329.264,"end":11354.078,"text":"更應該積極的尋找擴大多元能源的一個來源啦尤其在穩定供電在穩定供電及安全永續的前提下來確保我們能源的自主性舉凡我想不管是核電也好潮汐發電好水力發電甚至氫能發電都應該是我們現在目前不能排除的相關選項"},{"start":11356.932,"end":11374.77,"text":"這樣才能夠增加我們自己對能源自主的一個可控性最後我想在多元配置的前提下能源多元配置的前提下尋找降低成本的方案是我們現在應該要積極去尋找的以電價而言"},{"start":11378.138,"end":11396.301,"text":"受到我們現在目前的一個能源政策就是增加天然氣的這個政策下這個地緣政治上面的衝突我們現在購買的天然氣通常都是比原來的煤高價許多"},{"start":11397.582,"end":11416.508,"text":"近幾年我想在我們那個電價審議會裡面其實討論相當多的就是因為我們因為能源的成本購置成本太高所以造成台電的虧損那包含到現在目前大家都在討論上有沒有可能要調漲電價其實這個都是我們現在目前看到一個問題所以"},{"start":11418.268,"end":11437.336,"text":"在能源配置多元的前提下我們必須尋找降低成本的各項的一個可行方案能夠維持穩定合理的電價成本我們企業的競爭力才得以確保我想這是在產業界當中我們現在目前所要訴求的一個問題以上發言 謝謝"},{"start":11442.434,"end":11455.653,"text":"謝謝劉秘書長的發言那接下來我們有請蔡雅瑩律師台灣蠻野心竹生態協會專職律師蔡律師發言謝謝那下一位李敬偉執行長請準備"},{"start":11468.555,"end":11486.365,"text":"不管是支持核電或反對核電大家都有一個共識就是一定要確保核安就是核安應該是不管反核、擁核都有共識的事項那因此我們訴求是說希望要先修核安三法把我們核安的漏洞全部都補起來再來討論在這樣一個基礎下是否有需要去研議"},{"start":11487.205,"end":11495.234,"text":"那第一個我自己認為至少有三個很明顯的核安的法制漏洞第一個是我們核子事故的緊急計劃應變區涵蓋範圍不足這是從日本福島核災的經驗讓我們看到我們的緊急應變區是不足的然後第二個我們也發現"},{"start":11502.442,"end":11525.905,"text":"核電廠當初在蓋的時候40幾年前缺乏核電廠的選址規範導致我們既有的核電廠幾乎都在蓋在斷層帶甚至有的蓋在岩漿庫上但這也是對我們的核案一個很巨大的隱患而且這種隱患並不是更換設備就可以解決的選址的問題事實上是很難解決的那最後我是認為說我們國家的法律對於發生核子事故的時候對受害者保障也是不足的"},{"start":11527.048,"end":11548.015,"text":"那首先我們第一個訴求我們認為防災要嚴格也就是應該要先修訂核子事故緊急應變法第13條明定緊急應變區計劃區不得少於30公里其實在輔導核災之後大家如果看以前的紀錄曾經有非常多的委員提出這個修法有的是說要延長擴大到20公里有的是說要擴大到30公里那我們認為30公里是更周延的我們可以看到日本"},{"start":11548.815,"end":11568.292,"text":"我們在福島核災後台灣的緊急應變計劃區只有8公里可是日本是強制撤離20公里然後建議居家掩蔽或是自主撤離是30公里他們的補償也是到30公里我們可以看到如果只應變8公里的話核一廠只影響到3萬人可是如果到30公里是420萬人"},{"start":11569.753,"end":11586.109,"text":"核二廠是8.6萬人然後到30公里是598萬人這樣所需要應變的一些撤離跟安置所需要的條件是非常不一樣的在日本福島核災因為福島電廠它周圍的人口比較少他們實際撤離的人數大概是15萬多人"},{"start":11588.011,"end":11614.72,"text":"可是我們國家如果以核二廠來講有些人想要研議的核二廠如果發生事故影響到的人口數是輔導核災的將近40倍我們國家有條件撤離安置這麼多人嗎不但要修法而且要確實的盤點有沒有能力撤離安置幾百萬人如果沒有能力憑什麼說安全呢而且我要提醒各位美國的國土面積比台灣大非常多日本的國土面積也是台灣的10倍"},{"start":11615.4,"end":11639.885,"text":"過去有核災反核食的公投其實我有算過所謂的核食五縣市他們的面積那五個縣市加起來的面積就比台灣還要來的大如果發生核子事故全台灣都被世界各國認為是一個污染的地區我們連生存的空間都沒有何來的安全第二個我們要求的修法是安全不落人後我們希望不要修改核子管制法不應該只討論"},{"start":11642.506,"end":11664.126,"text":"只修研議如果真的要修還要增訂選址規範而且明文要求要採取國際最高的安全標準因為台灣面積太小一旦發生事故幾乎是亡國滅種的問題所以只能採全世界最高只能比國際上高更嚴格而不能更寬鬆那我們過去其實歐盟在做核電廠的壓力測試的崇華審查報告裡面也有講到"},{"start":11666.308,"end":11683.906,"text":"台灣核電廠暴露於天然災害的危害例如地震、海嘯、水災跟颱風是遠高於同期做歐盟壓力測試的歐洲各國我們的風險比別的國家高我們對安全的要求應該要比別的國家嚴絕對不能更寬鬆所以我們要求要做選址採最高的規範"},{"start":11685.347,"end":11712.754,"text":"已經蓋下去我們默默的承受這麼高的風險已經超過40年了我們認為修法之後未來如果是在危險的地方是不只是不能興建、擴建、研議甚至裝填核燃料就是我們希望能夠提前面的提升安全的要求那我們認為說至少要考慮像斷層或地質條件水溫還有人口的問題如果人口很多或是有其他的安全疑慮都是不應該去開發的而且我們希望這樣的一個最高安全標準是由主管機關和安會"},{"start":11713.314,"end":11741.479,"text":"先收集會診分析國際上所有的安全規範然後還有分析我國的特殊的條件然後政府先提一個草案來告訴我們為什麼現在這個草案是國際最高的標準然後經過公開展示是說明意見會診聽證以後然後再來訂那如果後來國際規範有一些加嚴或是我國家的一些地質各種條件有一些變化的心事證也應該修正規定而且在修正之前還是如果說中間有一些審查還是要把心事證考量就是我們希望安全不是口號而是具體的行動"},{"start":11742.219,"end":11756.787,"text":"那我很具體的我們認為我們國家根本不應該研議的公立監察院的調查報告有提到美國核管會的核能核電廠地質與地震懸殖準則要求核電廠半徑8公里是不能有活動斷層的可是我們的一二三廠"},{"start":11757.347,"end":11779.161,"text":"全部距離活動斷層都不到8公里過去無知承受風險現在已知絕對不應該延長風險光是這點我就認為我們其實不需要再花浪費精神去討論要不要研議但我想要說的是核電的地域可能是地熱的天堂先釐清場址條件再選擇適當的方式發電方式我們核二廠下面被選者證實有岩漿庫是讓風險非常的高"},{"start":11781.903,"end":11808.16,"text":"我們為什麼不去發展真正相對安全的這樣地熱這樣子同樣是低碳然後又更穩定的基載的電力偏偏要去沿江庫上發展核電這是我們很難接受的過去政府自己也說說我們國家的地熱潛能大概有40GW洗衣河一二三廠全部加起來大概也有5.2GW我們的地熱潛能是所有三座核電廠的將近八倍這樣的一個狀況為什麼我們不好好去發展地熱偏偏要發展有很多爭議高風險的核電呢"},{"start":11810.221,"end":11836.089,"text":"甚至台電自己也說因為地熱的容量因素它可以達到70%如果說每個地熱電廠都是能夠這樣的狀態事實上未來如果我們要靠地熱來滿足全台灣的需求並不是一個很樂觀的做法反正我們希望政府應該往這個方向去前進而不是發展核電而且我們也看到核二廠跟核三廠大概各1.9Gg為什麼政府自己的計畫不好好去發展地熱要去討論說要不要"},{"start":11836.989,"end":11865.978,"text":"用核電那過去也有討論說核二廠變成地熱電廠這些我就覺得應該要重新檢視不要只討論研議討論改造的狀況甚至也有專家分析其實地熱的發電成本是比核電還要低的那我覺得這件事情是需要去討論的再來是我們要求核災必須賠償包含擴大核子損害賠償的一個範圍然後刪除那個國際武裝衝突跟重大天災免責的規定因為我們都知道福島核災就是一個天災造成的這麼大的事故居然可以免責"},{"start":11866.618,"end":11889.564,"text":"是不能接受或者是從無二二物戰爭也看到核電廠在戰爭中是有可能被攻擊的然後我們要求刪除那些核子經營者以外免責的規定包含那個奇工瑕疵設備製造商要負責然後那個賠償責任上限也應該要刪除回歸有損害及有賠償然後還有要求責任保險去考慮人口產業發展放射性污染清除成本等然後也要延長那個時效"},{"start":11895.493,"end":11901.657,"text":"謝謝蔡律師的發言我們接下來請李敬偉執行長MomentX執行長李敬偉發言"},{"start":11911.494,"end":11936.473,"text":"主席各位產業先進各位學者大家好我是Momax的執行長那我們是一間AI科技公司所以我今天在這邊發言主要代表的其實就是一個從產業來看整個能源議題跟一個比較青年創業對於能源議題的想法那既然我們自己是自己開公司我們看事情當然是比較務實我們從最務實的角度來看就是隨著"},{"start":11937.734,"end":11956.453,"text":"台灣的科技發展不管是AI也好晶片產業也好我們對能源的需求是一直在上升的那我覺得這個是一個不用質疑的事實也是大家的共識那很多不同的觀點我覺得前面的各個發言都有提到了所以我們就純粹就事實來討論事實一我們的能源發展是"},{"start":11960.777,"end":11971.67,"text":"需求是越來越大的那第二個事實是其實核能並沒有大家想像中的那麼危險這是一個科學跟科技可以被解決的問題"},{"start":11974.046,"end":11991.548,"text":"那我們也可以看到說未來應該講說還有一個事實就是未來其實大家全世界的發展跟不管是藍綠也好的共識都是要降碳排那以台灣的另外一個事實說我們的再生能源就算全部加起來"},{"start":11992.609,"end":12018.69,"text":"也無法滿足未來不斷上漲的能源需求就算全部加起來都沒有辦法我們一定要有其他替代的能源選項那目前這個替代能源選項其他幾乎都是需要高碳排的選項不管是火力還是現在的天然氣都是有碳排的所以其實如果真的要滿足這樣的能源需求我們一定得把核能納入考量"},{"start":12020.013,"end":12041.408,"text":"那我覺得這個其實就是一個不是要不要做是如何做的問題就是如果我們要接受核能作為能源選項那這也是目前看起來唯一務實上可行的路啦因為如果沒有這個核能我不覺得有任何其他的方式可以達到未來的能源需求基本上是做不到了"},{"start":12042.749,"end":12057.385,"text":"實際上就是做不到所以我希望我們的執政黨也好我們的在野黨委員也好可以更把重心放在如果這是必須被考慮的選項該如何做 怎麼做才可以做到這件事情"},{"start":12058.346,"end":12080.469,"text":"另外一個是我本身是個工程師也是就是比較偏科學這一面的所以我今天其實看到葛委員那邊寄來的那個通知想說教育文化委員會我覺得非常合理因為其實我覺得核能的議題其實很多真的是教育問題它本身是一個對科技發展的信任度的問題"},{"start":12081.71,"end":12100.05,"text":"然後對於安全的未知對自己不了解或不夠了解事物的恐懼的問題其實如果我們對於人類科技的發展是有信心的我們應該要有信心知道說核能是可以被科技解決的這些污染都是可以被科技解決的然後這些"},{"start":12101.554,"end":12129.729,"text":"不管是核廢料也好這些都有辦法在工程上被解決那我們不應該為這件事情而感到恐懼我們其實可以去擁抱說我們要相信我們的社會我們的工程師我們的產業界我們的科學家有能力去解決這樣的問題然後朝希望未來的台灣在能源自主上面是可以夠安全也可以提供整個工商業界安全的能源供給的後盾謝謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":12133.635,"end":12143.523,"text":"謝謝李進偉執行長的發言那我們接下來有請徐光榮常務理事媽媽氣候行動聯盟常務理事徐常務理事發言"},{"start":12158.444,"end":12184.987,"text":"主席各位女士各位先生今天很榮幸來跟大家討論核電我們台灣核電為什麼不可以輕易的研議核能產業有一個跟其他所有產業最不一樣的地方就是核災風險是百姓在承擔你想想看風機或是太陽能板砸到房子砸壞了不能用了"},{"start":12186.209,"end":12187.681,"text":"你說一兩千塊可以解決嗎"},{"start":12189.619,"end":12193.762,"text":"可以處理嗎當然不行但是核電確實可以為什麼呢因為我們台灣的核能的法律呢幾乎都是沿用美國的那美國1957年通過一個Price-Anderson Act就有涉理賠上限161億美金啦現在所以我們都抄他們的不過呢我們台灣呢理賠上限呢就只有42億台幣也就是說假如發生在台北附近"},{"start":12219.699,"end":12233.79,"text":"好 那一個人大概分到一千塊錢可以幹嘛 你的房貸還要繼續交房子都不值錢了 東西都賣不出去了產業什麼東西都賣不出去了但是你只得到一千塊 兩千塊好了"},{"start":12236.195,"end":12262.433,"text":"所以我認為我們的核災理賠當然了核電業者是說你假如沒有理賠上限沒有人願意保險所以我建議我們的理賠上限至少要增加到4200億台幣那剛剛習友先進講過我們台灣的三座核電廠離斷層非常的近核一是7公里核二是5公里核三是從廠裡面通過這個斷層"},{"start":12266.355,"end":12277.422,"text":"那我們的耐震係數是多少呢你說我們蓋得非常堅固即使是斷層都沒有關係不是的我們的耐震係數照2013年我們參與歐盟壓力測試的時候我們那時候的原能會提出來的國家報告寫核一0.3G核二0.4G核三0.4G"},{"start":12289.429,"end":12310.279,"text":"然後呢這個報告到了這個歐盟壓力測試專家2013年底有來11月報告出爐原子能委員會都沒有跟這些專家提我們台灣有要提升耐震不過呢在第二年的6月居然我們都耐震提升了"},{"start":12311.42,"end":12317.763,"text":"短短的半年期間我們就已經耐震提升到0.5、0.6、0.7G了太神奇了那即使停到0.6G有用嗎?也沒有用因為日本在311之前的核電廠的耐震係數就是0.6G"},{"start":12330.848,"end":12342.638,"text":"但是你看看世界最大的核電廠薄崎易雨核電廠七座裝置在311之前一個6.6級的地震就把他們震壞了所以311發生的時候還有三個機組是沒有開啟的喔就是6.6級0.6G的耐震那現在七座機組還是停著的只有第六第七座在申請重啟"},{"start":12360.712,"end":12368.319,"text":"也就是說日本花了十幾年的時間都沒有辦法加強耐震我們台灣在半年之間就已經做好了所以我們應該輸出這樣的技術給日本教他們怎麼迅速加強耐震"},{"start":12378.027,"end":12385.314,"text":"另外呢其實就是這個用過的燃料棒池子其實是比反應爐更危險福島核災發生的時候有一度說要疏散東京市為什麼"},{"start":12393.661,"end":12412.521,"text":"因為第四座反應爐爐裡面沒有燃料但是它的反應爐旁邊的用過燃料池子裡面有很多的用過燃料棒在這個水潑出來之後呢怕這個火燃燒起來那萬一不幸的時候呢它就可能會"},{"start":12414.242,"end":12443.542,"text":"飄到東京所以一度考慮東京要疏散不過最幸運的事情發生就是那個水從旁邊不小心流進來了所以並沒有發生這樣的事情那日本人非常擔心我們台灣是不是更需要擔心右邊是福島的六個機組他在燃料用過燃料棒池子裡面含有的用過燃料的量"},{"start":12444.763,"end":12472.259,"text":"我们台湾目前所有的用过的燃料棒就在反应炉旁边我讲用的量我们原能会或是核安管制委员会只有给我们几束那是不一样的核三厂是跟核一二是完全不一样的所以我们的用过燃料棒的废料是非常多核三厂的两个都非常多是日本的大概有三倍四倍"},{"start":12473.464,"end":12475.265,"text":"是不是比人家更危險我們還不想這個還要想再研議然後呢最後一件事情我們現在可以隨便研議嗎核三廠是一種叫做壓水式反應爐不是核一核二的這種"},{"start":12492.421,"end":12495.764,"text":"那個熱交換的時候是非常高壓的狀況所以它的那個管子非常容易堵塞所以就是這個反應這個蒸汽產生器那其實2009年的時候台電公司就已經派員去法國去西班牙學習怎麼更換河山廠的蒸汽產生器"},{"start":12521.944,"end":12538.993,"text":"這個蒸汽產生器照他們的報告就說因為不是有掛在線上可以隨便去買來的所以今天你訂貨法國人大概要花五年的時間幫你做一個訂做然後呢"},{"start":12540.233,"end":12569.553,"text":"西班牙的公司要來台灣研究怎麼把河山廠的為主體切開來管子怎麼切開來把蒸汽產生器推進去然後再把所有的管線再接回去不是一根兩根幾百根幾千根所以總共換蒸汽產生器至少供期要有七年"},{"start":12570.594,"end":12597.53,"text":"所以所有美國核電廠在研議的時候都在甚至在十年前就開始更換蒸汽產生器那我們台灣並沒有做這件事情想要在一個月的時間或半年不到的時間就談研議實在是所有居民企業好了就我們發生核災企業你們的東西就不要想賣了"},{"start":12599.051,"end":12609.177,"text":"安全永遠是第一謝謝謝謝徐光榮常務理事的發言接下來我們有請張祺凱委員發言很高興今天有這麼多專家學者到現場還有我們的行政主管部門都在今天這個會議非常非常的重要"},{"start":12629.79,"end":12643.14,"text":"因為馬上就要漲電價了馬上就要漲電價了然後呢我們的核能到底要不要重啟或者要不要延續我們已經從去年的第一會期"},{"start":12648.366,"end":12673.574,"text":"開始討論了很期待今天我們透過理性跟專業這個討論有沒有可能找出一個比較好的一個答案甚至在馬上要開的電價審議委員會發現說我們的核能不管是重啟或者是嚴厲有可能是安全的更重要的讓核能像以前維持一個穩定"},{"start":12675.742,"end":12704.245,"text":"便宜的一個電價讓我們4月1號不用漲電價今天啊我想先從國際的情勢跟大家做一個共享我們現在談核電到底安不安全要不要研議全世界這幾年有非常非常大翻天覆地的這個改變當以前啊發生這個山梨島災變日本發生這個福島災變之後大家都不用核能了談核設變"},{"start":12706.343,"end":12726.988,"text":"可是你從國際上去看現在大家就在重返核能反回核能現在反對核能現在只剩下台灣的民進黨政府喔我建議大家可以看一下大家打維基百科維基百科做了一個現在目前全世界啊全世界哪些國家現在用核電哪些不用核電的裡面啊只剩下一個國家現在是反對核電的就是等待完我為什麼提這個例子呢"},{"start":12736.735,"end":12762.574,"text":"美國跟日本以前他們如果核電廠關掉重新要重開他們以前不願意重開把它關掉嘛對不對要重開現在最近這兩三年大家去看一下只要確定是安全一到三年就重啟啦更重要的烏俄戰爭三年前發生的時候烏俄戰爭的時候大家都知道德國以前是反核的嘛對不對"},{"start":12764.687,"end":12793.396,"text":"德國在烏俄戰爭的發現了他們天然氣斷氣了價格太高了他們馬上做了一個緊急的處理他們讓本來三座核子反應爐緊急檢查他是安全的讓他各研議了三到四個月上個月啊德國大選大家已經知道那個結果他反核的執政黨第一大黨跟第二大黨聯合執政黨全部都大敗"},{"start":12795.47,"end":12798.494,"text":"連德國這麼一個反核的國家民心都變了他們現在大勝的是第三大黨跟第四大黨要聯合組政府他們是支持要反回核能的所以國際的情勢已經在變了"},{"start":12811.201,"end":12836.202,"text":"連西班牙以前也是反對用核能的西班牙現在也要用了最特別的是義大利大家都知道義大利有文化復興對不對義大利前兩個禮拜喊出一個口號叫做核能復興因為核能穩定而且又便宜所以人以前最反核的德國喔或者以前因為有核災的日本跟美國全部都在反回核能了台灣真的"},{"start":12837.279,"end":12856.646,"text":"還要抱著以前的意識形態嗎當然我知道有人可能對安全有疑慮等一下我們進一步來談我剛舉例的是說如果當美國跟日本跟全世界先進的國家他們都在用他們認為安全沒有問題為什麼我要問為什麼台灣安全就是有問題的最近啊AIT的這個處長啊古立言他接受自由時報的專訪"},{"start":12867.895,"end":12893.354,"text":"他說美國跟日本最近為什麼要重用這個核能他說第一個因為穩定還有價格低廉的這個問題他還直接講了他說我們可以幫台灣解決這個問題美國都開口了斯圖文上個禮拜有一個兵推斯圖文是上一任AIT的處長他直接講了他說台灣的這個電力明明有切口啊不穩定啊"},{"start":12894.571,"end":12903.969,"text":"他不懂全世界都還回核能為什麼台灣不還回你不管是現任的AIT的處長上一任的前任的這個AIT的處長都這樣講了"},{"start":12905.956,"end":12924.154,"text":"全世界都這樣講為什麼台灣要這樣呢所以我先從國際的情勢跟大家報告如果從國際都已經在改變了從以前反對核能到反回核能台灣真的要用意識形態然後還抱持留在所有人都已經到了21世紀了我們要停留在上世紀嗎這是第一個第二個我們台灣現在面臨的是什麼問題台灣為什麼最近這幾年一直在漲電價"},{"start":12931.223,"end":12958.271,"text":"不就是因為核一廠停掉了核二廠停掉了核三廠的一號機停掉了5月17號馬上就來了核三廠的二號機馬上要停了大家可以去算一下光是核電廠核一核二核三停掉之後我們的過電成本一年增加一千億結果我們政府啊現在一直拿我們人民納稅錢一年補一千億已經補了三千億進去了漲了五次電價還填不飽喔"},{"start":12960.674,"end":12982.01,"text":"一般是買歷電當然也花了五六百億這是個問題最大的原因就是因為我們把核電停掉了那你政府要停核電你要跟人民講每一年的一千億要從哪邊來啊你每次都要撥補然後十月一號漁人節馬上到了又要漲一次搞不好今年十月一號又要漲一次這是多嚴重的一個問題"},{"start":12984.191,"end":13007.287,"text":"所以我今天特別來參加這個公聽會一方面當然傾聽我們專家寫者的建議不過我期待大家可以從全世界一個大的趨勢來看然後從國內我們現在碰到的問題我們剛剛不是只有碰到電價要上漲的這個問題我們還碰到我們的電力是不穩定的然後全世界人在這樣活動除了安全之外"},{"start":13008.505,"end":13015.453,"text":"穩定之外他們在談到綠電的問題低碳的這個問題我們台灣現在沒有用核能用什麼用天然氣對不對天然氣也不穩定啊天然氣的排碳"},{"start":13021.534,"end":13046.133,"text":"這是不是對台灣的產業也是一個非常大的一個傷害所以當然我等一下會好好傾聽可能今天有些專家寫者是非常堅持說我們的安全是要顧慮到的當然我也主張說你要檢查確定是安全才可以用所以這個會期我蠻期待的包括民眾黨跟國民黨甚至有些民進黨的這個立法委員我們共同好好來這個法把它修好在法令上已經完整的時候我們共同來解決我們這個問題"},{"start":13047.815,"end":13052.208,"text":"電的穩定 電力的穩定電價要讓它可以降下來 不要一直漲電價我們共同來努力 謝謝"},{"start":13056.191,"end":13082.671,"text":"謝謝張啟凱委員的發言那接下來呢我們先前有提到我們有一位非常也是一樣重要的來賓合碩聯合科技的童子賢董事長那因為在國外無法趕回與會但是他特別為了這一次的公聽會錄製了一段影片我們也很高興的看到我們的與會的專家學者有很多位都還在現場那也還包含我們所有的這個行政官員"},{"start":13083.391,"end":13087.2,"text":"那我們是否就請醫事人員協助播放童子賢董事長的這個發言"},{"start":13090.433,"end":13114.608,"text":"為什麼核能對臺灣是重要的核能非常好的優點有幾個第一個它的供電穩定第二個它佔用土地非常的小第三個核能會不排碳第四個核能經濟實惠它的價錢比天然氣比某一些綠能要便宜第五個"},{"start":13115.643,"end":13131.224,"text":"可能它的能源韌性相當的好也就是說它的磁性性相當的好相對的像天然氣的就是它的LNG傳如果兩個禮拜不到它就會斷氣也就是沒有電到"},{"start":13131.704,"end":13159.466,"text":"那我回過頭來談一下所謂的核能的供電穩定是這樣的目前我們在不排碳發電上面有綠能跟核能兩種選項我個人的衷心期望是綠能跟核能不要偏廢兩個一起可以發展那為什麼呢因為綠能是一種間歇性的能源綠能目前在台灣最主要發展的是太陽能跟風力發電"},{"start":13160.747,"end":13187.307,"text":"太陽能 有太陽就有電 沒有太陽就沒有電尤其當晚或者是夜間根本就太陽很微弱或者是沒有太陽這就變成電就會停 這個叫做間歇性發電而風 風也是一個看天吃飯的發電方式尤其是台灣非常需要電 需要冷氣的夏天到了夏天的傍晚到半夜幾乎都是沒有風"},{"start":13188.688,"end":13214.162,"text":"這是整個地球的大氣結構所帶來的條件我們沒有辦法去對抗它所以核能它是非常的穩定核能它的燃料棒只要上限開始發電它可以連續18個月也就是一年半不停的而且它的那條曲線非常的筆直非常的穩定這個穩定性對工業生產來說非常的重要"},{"start":13214.662,"end":13231.629,"text":"另外一個我談一下這個核能佔土地非常的小如果我們要把核能擴增兩倍或三倍的話台灣完全不需要額外的土地只要現在的核一到核四原來的土地就可以把核電的發電量持續擴張"},{"start":13233.19,"end":13248.919,"text":"如果我們不擴張而是把核二核三研議的話基本上也沒有用到台灣額外的土地而綠能在這一部分需要龐大的陸地跟龐大的海洋來執行綠能我有一個統計我們在2023年全台灣的用電2821.4億噸"},{"start":13260.126,"end":13283.725,"text":"這樣子的用電如果我們完全用太陽能紮電來支應的話會需要10.5個台北市的土地才能夠生產足夠的太陽能對於國土非常珍貴對於寸土寸金的台灣來說10.5個台北市的土地實在是一個不可承受之重"},{"start":13286.787,"end":13308.951,"text":"如果我們好好地用核電的U 供應穩定的電那麼台灣的產業發展 台灣的民生用電有兩個好處對外來說我們上進 台灣是一份子對內來說 其實台灣過去十年的供U"},{"start":13310.709,"end":13325.577,"text":"主要是因為火力發電所帶來的潛伏粒子跟二氧化碳的排放對臺灣的空氣品質是一個很嚴重的負面的效應到目前為止核電尤其是核二核三"},{"start":13326.878,"end":13354.398,"text":"它的發電的效率非常的好它的成本非常的低根據台電在去年公布的這個發電成本資料來說核電在最新的一個年度公布的成本是每一度電1.42元台幣那如果是風力發電跟太陽能發電呢台電向民間就是外來的外商或者民間這個發電購入的成本呢"},{"start":13356.099,"end":13377.998,"text":"風力發電是6.59元,也就是6.6元然後太陽能發電購入成本是4.87元,接近4.9元6.6元跟4.9元相對於1.42元的核能來說可以差到5塊錢以上台灣如果一年用電3000億度的時候"},{"start":13380.04,"end":13403.459,"text":"每一度電差一塊錢一年整個國家就要支付額外的三千億如果每一度電差到兩塊錢就必須額外的支付六千億那剛才給各位這個的數字是台電公布的數字風力發電的話可以差到四塊以上跟目前核二核三的這個成本那如果是這個太陽能的話可以差到三塊半"},{"start":13404.215,"end":13424.461,"text":"那各位把它乘以每一年如果需要用3000億對電所要發費的這個額外的支出是很驚人的所以我才會呼籲說讓核電來幫忙可以每年替台灣省下N個千億我要說一下這個民遠的韌性如剛才所說的"},{"start":13426.402,"end":13452.899,"text":"核電廠的燃料棒放上去就可以連續18個月非常穩定的發電通常燃料棒放上去之後旁邊還會備份另外一套準備要下一代一次要使用的燃料棒兩份燃料棒只要一艘船船運一道一次可以供應36個月也就是可以供應三年所以這個東西對台灣的能源韌性有很大的幫助"},{"start":13453.599,"end":13474.069,"text":"跟各位聊一聊為什麼會重視電力我曾經用一個我規矩的一句話叫做電力及國力來說明目前台灣所擅長的先進晶片製造需要用到相當的電力台灣所要追求的AI"},{"start":13475.369,"end":13495.928,"text":"也要用到相當的電力如果台灣想要減少汽車所排放的空污那我們會用電動車來代替燃油車的話我們也會用到電力也就是先進晶片的製造AI的預算跟電動車的使用跟推廣都會需要用到很多的電力"},{"start":13496.528,"end":13524.723,"text":"那電在能源的類別上面它是比煤炭還有燃油更精密更可控制的一種乾淨能源目前全世界主要的發電來源有幾個一個是古老的水利或者傳統的燃煤或者新興的天然氣另外一個當然就是不排碳的能源就是核電跟太陽能跟風力發電那我在這邊要跟大家聊一個數字"},{"start":13526.063,"end":13538.311,"text":"太陽能跟風力發電經過全球努力的發展的二三十年目前全世界,我講的是全世界,不是台灣全世界的風力發電加太陽能目前2023年IEA國際能源總數的統計是13.3%"},{"start":13544.595,"end":13556.296,"text":"也就是靠風力發電加太陽暖增新興的科技全世界努力了20年目前就是13.38%所以我給一個結論靠這個13.38%救不了地球暖暴"},{"start":13557.476,"end":13584.007,"text":"全世界還依賴另外一個古老的綠能叫做水力發電水力發電佔了全世界14.2%那14.2%加13.3%加起來就是27.5%左右那這27.5%一樣距離我們要百分之百用沒有不排碳的方式來救地球距離其實非常的遙遠而核能到目前為止在全世界的統計大概還在9.1%到9.5%左右"},{"start":13587.368,"end":13611.656,"text":"所以經過這麼多年下來我們得到一個答案讓核能跟綠能加水力發電來攜手合作才有機會來挽救地球暖化的命運台灣本身經過過去多年尤其是小英政府在八年裡面確實非常努力的發展太陽能跟風力發電可是我們遇到的瓶頸是這樣"},{"start":13612.856,"end":13622.574,"text":"台灣地狹人稠沒有足夠的空間來發展綠能所以過去八年我在2023一整年的統計上面看到太陽能發電4.6%"},{"start":13625.612,"end":13653.045,"text":"風力發電2.2%這是像台灣整體用電4.6%加2.2%就是6.8%這個是2023年的統計到了2024有微幅的進步又增加1%多所以太陽能加風力從6.8%大概就進入到8.1%、8.2%了我也給一個這樣的結論你靠這8.1%、8.2%救不了地球暖化也沒有能力提供整個台灣產業界所需要的綠能"},{"start":13654.185,"end":13675.345,"text":"不管是地熱發電或風力發電我們都希望說這些新的不排碳能源每一度變得很重要大家還是努力的去做研究不要停止可是何妨讓核能來合作所以這樣的方向叫做核力共存這是我所衷心盼望的"},{"start":13675.956,"end":13697.063,"text":"所有的先進國家過去10年包含美國、日本、歐盟都在微幅的下滑用電都在微幅的下滑這是台灣50年來的用電的分析這是全球的分析也就是大家可以看得到全球在最近10年是25.4%的成長台灣只有11.8%所以相對是沒有那麼高的成長幅度"},{"start":13704.292,"end":13731.665,"text":"所以對我來說其實認為能源不難解決你只要選對能源的類別在這上面下功夫台灣的耗電除了台積電跟電動車跟AI即使這樣子它的成長比起我們在20年前30年前的成長真的是相對少很多不用自己嚇自己只要做妥善的規劃跟把電網建設好台灣的用電可以很穩定的"},{"start":13736.715,"end":13756.278,"text":"好謝謝童子賢董事長的發言好那接下來我想專家學者委員均已發言完畢另有范雲委員林德福委員林怡瑾委員提出書面意見那現在請何安會代表回應"},{"start":13774.175,"end":13791.661,"text":"我想再次感謝大院邀請核安會列席今天的會議那各位委員、學者專家以及與會的代表對於核能安全表達的關注以及針對今天討論提綱所提出的看法對我國核能安全管制都是重要的參考的意見"},{"start":13794.79,"end":13808.565,"text":"核安會尊重大院委員及黨團所提的核管法修正草案以及條例的草案對於能源規劃及淨營碳排的議題核安會並沒有預設的立場"},{"start":13810.939,"end":13830.046,"text":"那在這裡僅是以核安管制的立場再次聲明若修法通過仍需由台電公司依機組狀況就機組運轉的可行性及安全性進行評估也需要依法規及採用和國際一致的安全標準及做法針對廠房結構及設備"},{"start":13832.947,"end":13848.896,"text":"进行整体的老化安全评估执行机组设备安全检查更新需要态患的设备执行必要的安全强化措施恢复运转所需组织人力解决用过燃料池储存空间的问题"},{"start":13849.833,"end":13872.605,"text":"此外若涉有其他主管機關法規要求事項台電公司也應依其規定辦理在符合法規及安全要求的前提下方可依法提出換照的申請那河安會作為獨立的核能安全管制機關持續秉持專業和公正透明的態度那無論是現在的機組運轉除役"},{"start":13874.741,"end":13902.659,"text":"或未來若需要再使用核能我們均會秉持嚴格執行核電廠的安全管制那本次公聽會對於管制方面的寶貴意見核安會會適時透過納入安全管制的參考做好民眾安全把關的工作那謝謝大家今天的意見那最後還是要敬祝各位與會的人員健康喜樂平安如意謝謝"},{"start":13906.182,"end":13907.383,"text":"謝謝副主委的發言 謝謝"},{"start":13911.38,"end":13933.599,"text":"那感謝各位專家學者今天的與會並發表寶貴的意見各位可能也有看到今天早上我7點10分來到這裡簽名做發言但是最終我個人也就放棄了發言主要也是覺得今天各位的發言內容都非常的完整我希望我今天能夠以一個傾聽的角色來傾聽各界的意見"},{"start":13937.202,"end":13951.619,"text":"那我想今天的公聽會大家應該也可以感覺到我們是希望能夠提供一個理性的平台讓大家發表對於台灣未來能源以及加上未來科技整合起來去做一些選項考量的看法"},{"start":13952.199,"end":13970.825,"text":"那剛剛幾位專家特別關心核電廠的安全問題今天會議我們特別邀請到核安會以及台電來列席那核電廠的安全在核安會和台電嚴格遵守相關流程以及作業規定的前提下加上他們的專業我們相信絕對是可以安全無虞的"},{"start":13971.525,"end":13986.259,"text":"我想今天列席的核安會張副主委以及經濟部賴次長絕對可以為此做擔保核安會的報告也提到我國三座核電廠是依法廚藝套用一句執政黨喜歡使用的話"},{"start":13987.26,"end":14005.573,"text":"時空環境條件不同今天多位專家提到台灣對於穩定平價能源的需求我們是不是還要繼續用民國92年也就是2003年所施行的核子反應器設施管制法來綑綁住台灣的未來"},{"start":14007.774,"end":14022.011,"text":"用22年前的法規來管制現在甚至還要前置住未來產業的發展我們是不是真的要這樣做呢今天公聽會以後希望各界我們可以一起再次進行反思"},{"start":14023.012,"end":14037.688,"text":"同時今天中研院的報告也提到全球正有440座核電廠正在運轉另外有65座核電廠正在施工86座核電廠正在規劃334座核電廠正在研議興建"},{"start":14046.076,"end":14057.763,"text":"剛才也有專家提到一些數據那我們確認了一下發現可能有一些需要被更新剛剛有提到我們的鄰近國家像日本54座核電廠剛剛有說是22座停止運轉12座重啟"},{"start":14064.207,"end":14083.126,"text":"事实上今年二月份的资料已经很明确的表示停止运转的是54座里头的20座有14座已经重启运转而有另外没有提到的有11座正在做重启的申请那中研院的报告也有提到"},{"start":14083.826,"end":14100.551,"text":"新兴的核能科技具有安全高效率低成本的优点不仅是先进国家对此趋之若鹜更有许多的私人企业投入数亿数十亿甚至数百亿的美元去发展新兴的核能科技"},{"start":14101.351,"end":14109.818,"text":"我們剛才也持續的確認了剛剛也有專家不斷的引用IEA的數據這個數據也已經顯示IEA的報告說2025年核電發電量的佔比將有可能在2025年創下歷史新高"},{"start":14122.427,"end":14149.58,"text":"希望所有的專家學者都能在這個時刻以現在以及未來作為考量不要再用過去的機制過去的思維來綑綁自己我們是時候也有機會來進行反思所以我個人認為台灣不應該與世界以及科技的潮流去背道而馳那根據知名媒體2024年所做的民調"},{"start":14151.261,"end":14167.821,"text":"這個有高達七成的民眾認為台灣有缺電的問題同時也有高達七成的民眾支持繼續使用核電因此我們站在民意的基礎上我們也希望能夠傾聽各界的意見"},{"start":14169.546,"end":14187.825,"text":"這個各界的意見也希望能夠一起來推動核子反應器設施管制法的修法進程我們再次強調這個法令從民國92年施行以後是需要進行討論跟修改的不要忽視高達七成的台灣民意我們的政府應該要正視"},{"start":14188.826,"end":14213.183,"text":"那也就在今天早上的這個時間,這個美國這個NVIDIA正在進行一個年度的發表會,GTC的發表會。在這個發表會當中,黃仁勛也明確的表達,Every data center in the future will be power limited.Your revenues are power limited."},{"start":14213.993,"end":14227.353,"text":"也就是所有的資料中心也就影射指涉著AI科技以及經濟數位科技的發展的未來將有賴於人員的上限"},{"start":14228.342,"end":14248.452,"text":"同時他也表達不管是他所謂的Yours包含企業甚至我們相信也是一個國家他的利潤也就表示了他的經濟將會是Power Limited所以當全世界各國都在希望能夠提升自己的能源的上限"},{"start":14249.312,"end":14269.344,"text":"我們台灣也應該在這個時候很認真的進行思考所以我們再次呼籲我們的賴清德政府不要忽視高達七成的台灣民意也不要忽視我們非常多的產業、學界還有各種科技發展全球趨勢的專家"},{"start":14270.965,"end":14299.306,"text":"期待行政院趕快將院版的合資反應器設施管制法的修法草案送進立法院來討論如果沒有能源主權我們就不會有AI主權更遑論其他所以我們再次的強調行政院有責任也應該要趕快競速的將合資反應器設施管制法的修法草案送進立法院我們一起來共同討論"},{"start":14301.003,"end":14319.602,"text":"今天我們也就依據立法院職權行使法第58條規定委員會應於公聽會終結後10日內依出席者所提供之正反意見提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員以及出席者第59條規定公聽會報告作為審查該特定議案之參考"},{"start":14323.925,"end":14324.966,"text":"感謝大家,謝謝各位。"}]}},{"id":"16526","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16526","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e62ae2672450bbbb2ce1f9dc46489d2417a524d1b3d409a1a5dbec3809c36045c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次公聽會（事由：召開「債務人保險契約價值的強制執行爭議（俗稱保單抵債）保險法該怎麼修？」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-19T08:31:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-19T11:24:00+08:00","duration":10380,"影片長度":"02:53:00","委員發言時間":"08:31:00 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具備了這個解約金的價值的保單可以不可以被強制的執行我們從這個最高法院民事大法庭在2022年12月做成了108年度"},{"start":2001.397,"end":2020.937,"text":"這個台康大致第897號的一個裁定認為人壽險公司的保單的價值事實上應該要歸屬要保人而且解約金的一個這個債權有沒有一身專屬性呢所以債權人可以不可以申請法院的強制執行"},{"start":2022.018,"end":2039.101,"text":"藥保人這個也是債務人的一個人壽保險的企業雖然欠債的要還錢這個是天經地義但是也是因為這一個大法庭裁定延伸出來了許多的一個問題例如我們地方法院的民事執行處的受案量"},{"start":2039.682,"end":2067.689,"text":"增加了非常的多本席現在掌握的對於從大法庭裁定到去年底為止就是12月底就有123萬件另外有關健康保險及傷害保險執行後將會出現讓許多人頓時失去了醫療保險的一個照顧的社會問題上個禮拜金管會已經公布新的保單那個保險法的一個草案如果依照草案的規定"},{"start":2068.689,"end":2083.366,"text":"健康險跟醫療險將不會被強制執行這個方向是不是適合那草案規定了以各地最低的生活費作為人壽保險豁免以強制執行的標準有沒有道理"},{"start":2084.106,"end":2099.255,"text":"這個我們今天都是要邀請各位專家學者行政單位以及各位委員大家共同來討論那首先我先介紹那個在現場的委員跟議會的學者那我們先介紹在現場的黃珊珊委員"},{"start":2103.754,"end":2124.979,"text":"我們依序介紹初期的學者專家我們就是以簽到的順序為準我先介紹東吳大學法律系我們的李智峰教授李教授歡迎還有我們東吳大學法律系的助理教授陳炫宇教授"},{"start":2128.789,"end":2143.688,"text":"政大風險管理與保險學系的研究助理何開文政治大學法律學系特聘教授兼副院長葉教授"},{"start":2145.62,"end":2156.283,"text":"謝謝葉教授接著我們介紹出席的團體代表中華民國產物保險商業同業工會我們的副主任委員林勝志中華民國人壽保險商業同業工會經營會副秘書長"},{"start":2167.56,"end":2194.905,"text":"謝謝 歡迎那中華民國商業銀行工會那個全國聯合會陳玉君幹事歡迎財團法人法律輔助基金會行政律師張敬佩張律師那依序我們再介紹列席的機關代表我們的金融監督管理委員會金管會我們的副主委陳彥良陳副主委"},{"start":2198.005,"end":2218.233,"text":"謝謝 謝謝 那我們法律事務處 我們林志憲處長保險局 我們王立慧 王局長還有財團法人保險事業發展中心 張芳舒總經理財團法人金融消費評議中心 羅俊維總經理"},{"start":2221.829,"end":2250.359,"text":"司法院民事廳我們新到任的廳長那就是林靜婷廳長 歡迎還有我們的毛彥成法官非常歡迎 法務部行政執行署我們的主任行政執行官黃蕙玲 謝謝還有行政執行官羅延勝 謝謝好 那我們"},{"start":2251.742,"end":2252.755,"text":"接下來就是"},{"start":2254.229,"end":2280.691,"text":"在議會人員那個花言以前那主席在這裡跟大家做一個報告每一位花言是八分鐘結束的前一分鐘我們會按鈴提醒那原則上就是依專家寫者簽到的一個順序來花言那委員如果有需要花言請到主席台來登記每位委員花言的時間是五分鐘那我們全部花言完了以後我們再請行政機關就"},{"start":2283.014,"end":2292.728,"text":"業館的一個前者整理整體來回應那我們現在先請第一位學者專家李教授發表意見"},{"start":2305.663,"end":2325.498,"text":"我接著再補充介紹後續來的學者一位是我們財團法人國家政策研究基金會副研究員周信佑接著我們介紹政大風險管理保險學系陳俊炎教授"},{"start":2326.879,"end":2327.363,"text":"陳教授 歡迎"},{"start":2331.925,"end":2357.947,"text":"謝謝賴委員各位委員各位長官還有保險業界的朋友大家好我是動物大學法律學系的李志豐今天很高興能夠來這個公聽會跟各位說明一下我對保單強制實行的見解我們想想看保險的意義是什麼第一個其實保險是有面臨相同或類似危險的人他們希望有一個制度能夠"},{"start":2358.767,"end":2373.719,"text":"去保障他們所以他加入了花一點錢繳保費加入了這個危險共同體所以他的締約的狀況大概是這樣由邀保人跟保險人締結一個保險人契約約定了什麼約定由邀保人繳"},{"start":2374.62,"end":2392.605,"text":"一點費用繳保險費給到這個保險人然後被保險人移轉他的危險給所謂的也就是這個危險共同體代表的也就是這個保險人來承擔那事故發生了之後那會給付保險金那給付保險金呢"},{"start":2393.965,"end":2418.551,"text":"不見得到底要付給誰呢那因為我們在學說上面認為說保險契約是一個第三人利益契約那這個第三人有可能就是如果你邀保人不是自己為被保險人的話那這個被保險人他就是第三人那你如果有指定一個邀保人以外的第三人作為受益人他也是第三人所以保險金的狀態會"},{"start":2420.225,"end":2438.902,"text":"呈現一個就是說如果你被保險人活著的時候他會給被保險人如果你被保險人已經死掉了那就給他同意的受益人那如果被保險死了受益人也怎麼樣也沒有指定的話那就會"},{"start":2440.724,"end":2454.275,"text":"給所謂被保險人的繼承人所以我們來看保險企業當事人一方是保險人那我們care的這一方叫邀保人邀保人你看我們保險法的第三條的定義對他做這樣是定義說"},{"start":2456.076,"end":2482.538,"text":"對保險標的具有保險利益向保險人申請訂立保險契約並附有交付保險費義務之人所以他重不重要其實他很重要因為他締結契約他繳了費他繳了費但是呢事實上這個契約的法律關係裡面有更重要的兩個人我們稱為他關係人那主要是被保險人跟受益人主要是被保險人跟受益人那各位可以看到我們保險法第四條這麼規範"},{"start":2484.079,"end":2510.098,"text":"他說在保險事故發生時遭受損害享有賠償請求權之人邀保人必得為被保險人所以在保險制度裡面這個制度這個契約真正要保障的人叫被保險人叫被保險就是他真正有利害關係的人你看法條也跟你規定說如果邀保人想要自己當被保險也可以"},{"start":2511.96,"end":2531.227,"text":"題外之因就是怎麼樣你也可以以第三人作為被保險人那第五條受益人我們的法規這麼跟你保險法第五條這麼跟你規定他說被保險人或邀保人約定享有賠償請求權之人邀保人或被保險人均得為受益人"},{"start":2531.747,"end":2560.346,"text":"那這個在學理上認為說受益人的權利其實是他固有的權利他是一個被保險人想要照顧的人為什麼他是被保險人想要照顧的人他是在被保險人因為他死亡了沒有辦法享有保障所以由被保險人同意同意說最後保險給付保險金來給付給他所以我們來看在整個契約裡面"},{"start":2562.268,"end":2585.647,"text":"整個企業裡面我們今天爭議的地方在於所謂的藥保人繳了所謂的這個所謂的提前繳了保費有所謂的保駕金那他的債權人可不可以來執行可不可以來終止契約來執行這個保駕金這一部分我們要思考的就是說在這個制度裡面"},{"start":2587.02,"end":2607.661,"text":"他真正想照顧的人是誰還是跟一般的契約一樣締結契約的這個當事人就是這個制度裡面最重要的人嗎我想不應該是這樣我想不應該是這樣而且各位去想一個問題我們為什麼會有一個人要以第三人"},{"start":2608.422,"end":2620.652,"text":"作為被保險人去買這個契約通常這些被保險人都是腰保人想照顧的人也就是他的父母、子女配偶作為被保險人"},{"start":2623.117,"end":2641.996,"text":"他為什麼用保險的形式很多時候就覺得說我們直接給現金比如說我李之鋒我今天想要照顧我太太想要照顧我的父母可能現在給現金不是很適合我用一個方式叫保險所以以第三人作為被保險人"},{"start":2644.098,"end":2672.074,"text":"買保險的這種狀態我覺得他本質上跟鄭宇很類似跟鄭宇很類似因為他保險可以能夠提供他生活上的保障那各位想一想我們把錢鄭宇給別人如果我們假設我現在李之鋒我把一百萬給我太太我現在沒有負債那因為我有錢我要照顧我太太一百萬給我太太可是過了十年之後"},{"start":2673.646,"end":2696.483,"text":"我負債了我的債權人可以跳出來說李志豐你現在欠我錢喔你十年前你送你太太一百萬所以我現在要把這個契約撤銷我要去執行答案可不可以不行因為我在贈與的時候我沒有詐害債權我是那換成保險的形式為什麼保險"},{"start":2697.898,"end":2727.378,"text":"如果邀保人以一個他想照顧的人去買了保險他在所謂的買這個保險當時他也沒有負債可是為什麼多年後他的負債了他的債務人卻可以來對保單強制執行我覺得這個是我個人認為是說不合理的地方不合理的地方而且我們對比一些制度其實像信託像信託信託大概也是這個委託人"},{"start":2728.278,"end":2742.347,"text":"他想要怎麼樣他想要用他的財產來做一些安排可能給他想要照顧的人所以他去成立這個信託但信託你成立了之後如果之後你這個信託人委託人你有負債"},{"start":2743.388,"end":2770.07,"text":"他的債權呢可不可以事後再來撤銷這個信託答案也是不行啦答案也是不行啦所以為什麼證與現金或有類似制度的信託特殊制度的信託都不會受到影響那為什麼保險會受到影響所以我個人認為說邀保人跟被保險是不一樣的人的時候原則上不應該可以強制執行那並不代表我反對強制執行喔"},{"start":2772.452,"end":2781.185,"text":"就像剛才我們的趙薇講的欠債還錢是天經地義如果你腰保人跟背保險是同一個人影響的都是你"},{"start":2782.199,"end":2810.862,"text":"那當然就可以強制執行啦當然就可以強制執行所以我自己一個比較忠心的思想是要保人跟被保險是不一樣的時候不可以強制執行因為他會違反了保險的核心目的就是被保險是保險真正想要提供保障的人那你把他執行了其實他就達不到保險的目的了達不到保險的目的所以我自己擬了一個條文給各位參考"},{"start":2812.063,"end":2837.834,"text":"如果在我的意見之下如果想要強制執行的話想要對這個做規範的話大概是這樣人受保險具有下列情形之一者其解約金債權不得作為扣押或強制執行之標的第一款是以第三人為被保險人也就是要保人被保險不一樣的時候第二款是指定第三人為受益人並放棄處分權"},{"start":2838.834,"end":2863.098,"text":"因為縱使你要保人被保險同樣一個你放棄處分權代表你要保人放棄契約上的權利了那契約既然不是你的權利的話那你的債權人當然不能夠來怎麼樣扣押跟執行那第三個我覺得社會上或許會有一些考量就是我們訂一個結金債權的金額作為不能夠執行的一個標準"},{"start":2863.678,"end":2887.454,"text":"那第二項我會建議這麼做說前項人壽保險契約在締約或繳費時邀保人之債務已超過其資產者邀保人之債權人仍得以其結約金債權作為扣押或強制執行的標的第二項要處理什麼就是要處理說你在買保險或繳費的時候其實你已經欠人家錢了但你不想還錢"},{"start":2888.888,"end":2915.947,"text":"你把錢藏在保險裡面那這個我覺得被強制執行是天生地異的那另外有關介入權的部分就簡單講我個人認為應該只要留說對於被保險人有保險利益的人才能夠去行使這個介入權因為我們目前的法律體系要保人對被保險人還是要有保險利益的所以我認為在維持這個法律體系的狀態底下"},{"start":2917.489,"end":2921.497,"text":"是可以這麼做那以上是我簡單的報告請各位參考 謝謝好 謝謝李之鋒教授接著我們請陳炫宜教授"},{"start":2950.973,"end":2968.832,"text":"各位委員還有各位長官以及業界的前輩大家好我是東吳大學新進的助理教授陳迅宇今天來跟各位委員分享一下就是關於保單抵債的強制執行的我個人的一些想法"},{"start":2972.267,"end":2995.457,"text":"由於我先說明一下我自己個人的背景因為我個人是之前在銀行業界裡面工作了大概七年左右然後現在轉來學界所以對於保單強制執行這一塊的議題的話其實涉及到所謂的保單強制執行對於銀行的債權其實是不是真的有影響我自己在業界我自己知道這個保單"},{"start":2996.597,"end":3011.837,"text":"這些大部分的債權都已經賣給了所謂資產管理公司但是在實務上也是有很多保單強制執行的債權人他可能是侵權行為的受害人他可能是詐騙的受害人所以他透過這張保單去做他實現他的債權"},{"start":3013.639,"end":3029.106,"text":"還是有它的必要性的所以這次提供了關於提綱總共有五個題目那第一個跟第二個題目的話我個人對於保單的解約金可不可以作為債務人的"},{"start":3030.306,"end":3056.181,"text":"一個責任財產的話還有第二個題目是不是當保單做強制執行的時候那失去保障的可能就是身為邀保人的債務人的話那可能就是債務人跟債權人之間的利益平衡的話誰受法律優先保障關於這兩個提綱的部分的話其實最高法院的108年度抬綱制第897號裁定他已經"},{"start":3057.842,"end":3073.713,"text":"做出了一個方向就是就是人壽保險的解約金可以作為強制執行的財產以及當強制執行的時候人壽保單做強制執行的時候債權人應該受到優先的保護然後再"},{"start":3074.634,"end":3092.971,"text":"其次再去顧慮到債務人的一個保險的相關權利契約的權利所以關於第一個跟第二個提綱的部分的話我個人是尊重最高法院的108年度台綱大致第八九號裁定這個這樣子那我想要所以我會針對第三第四第五個提綱的部分來去做一個說明好那"},{"start":3103.66,"end":3121.006,"text":"第三個題剛剛講到就是說無解約金或解約金甚低的健康保險與傷害保險立法上是不是要豁免做強制執行這個部分的話因為我們剛剛提到的最高法院大法庭裁定他沒有提到所謂的傷害保險也沒有提到所謂的健康保險"},{"start":3121.886,"end":3147.042,"text":"那在立法上的確是有一個空間可以去是不是可以去做一個健康保險跟傷害保險的一個豁免的情況那在學理上的話在學理上應該可不可以去做一個豁免要先去考慮一個前提就是健康保險跟傷害保險它是不是有所謂的解約金的存在如果有解約金的存在的話其實也是可以作為強制執行的標的那"},{"start":3149.403,"end":3166.625,"text":"目前行政院提出來的關於保險法的修正條案對於健康險的話它是作為一個排除的動作我個人是持一個反對的意見因為健康險這個部分的話它其實是有解約金的"},{"start":3168.027,"end":3194.68,"text":"如果說我個人 像我個人購買的健康險的話如果有十年期的如果繳費已經繳了十年的話也有二三十萬的結約金那這筆結約金也相對的是比較高一點那在外國的立法例上也沒有特別將健康險去做一個排除比如說在簡報上提到的日本保險法的第八十九條它是對於傷害疾病定額保險也是所謂的健康險"},{"start":3195.62,"end":3210.321,"text":"他也是可以在立法上他也是可以認為是可以做強制執行的所以就是說將健康險特別去做一個排除的話那我個人是認為不是一個非常妥適的一個做法那"},{"start":3211.666,"end":3237.857,"text":"關於再來就是除了健康險以外當然還會再討論的是有關於年金險以及小兒中老保險那年金險的部分目前我們的法規保險法135條之四其實已經對於就是進入年金給付的年金保險就沒有所謂的強制執勤的問題所以年金險的這個部分的話其實在這次的大法庭裁定或是保單強制執勤這邊都沒有受到太大的影響那"},{"start":3239.803,"end":3265.363,"text":"比較會去討論的是關於小兒中老保險這個部分小兒中老保險這個部分的話其實我們我個人參照的日本的立法例的話在就是檢疫生命保險法也就是所謂我們的檢疫人壽保險或者是日本有一個郵便年金法它其實對於所謂的他們年金保險跟檢疫人壽保險有做一個"},{"start":3266.795,"end":3285.622,"text":"有限度的豁免 也不是全額的豁免 像就是檢疫生命保險法裡面對於年金是做半額的豁免那我提到的那個流便年金法其實已經併到所謂的檢疫人檢疫的生命保險法裡面了所以他"},{"start":3286.522,"end":3311.716,"text":"的檢疫人壽保險跟我們台灣的檢疫本人壽保險的性質有點不太相像他比較帶有一個政府的色彩所以小兒中老保險的就是保險人士所謂有代表政府色彩的政府機關嗎那有需要特別去針對小兒中老保險去做一個豁免嗎那我個人是持一個存疑的態度那"},{"start":3313.817,"end":3331.905,"text":"以上是關於第三個提綱的部分就是我認為就是說不應該去特別針對某一個保險去做一個豁免的情況這是第三個部分那第四個部分是關於就是如果說要做一個豁免的話那強制執行的額度要去怎麼樣去計決定"},{"start":3334.838,"end":3358.226,"text":"在額度決定的方式裡面的話有兩個議題需要先去做討論的就是所謂的額度的計算方式以及額度的計算的範圍因為目前行政院提出來的版本的話它是用單張保單去做一個計算的方式那還有一種是屬於用總額的方式去計算保單的額度"},{"start":3359.266,"end":3384.545,"text":"那單張寶山計算的方式的話可能是因為相關的就是法院這邊有反應就是說這樣子的話用總額計算會有一些行政上的作業的難點但是我個人認為這個還是會有所謂財單疑慮所以我個人是比較贊同是用總額來計算至於額度的範圍的部分的話目前行政院草案是在簡報上參考強制執行法122條"},{"start":3387.887,"end":3409.075,"text":"那這邊是依照各縣市政府的公告的最低生活費去計算數額這部分的話其實會有一點就是關於就是各縣市有點不一的狀況那我個人是建議就是說是不是授權主管機關或司法院制定一定的金額的豁免額度這樣子會是比較一個適合的做法"},{"start":3412.12,"end":3431.98,"text":"我進入到第五個主張我講快一點那關於就是說介入權這個規定的話其實跟第三個第四個提綱是有密切相關聯的就是關於可執行的解約金債權你的範圍要拉的多大如果你的範圍拉豁免金額要拉的多大你的豁免金額越小"},{"start":3433.081,"end":3449.792,"text":"那他可以用到借入權制度就越有可能那如果貨品金額拉得越大的話那你的借入權制度就沒有適用的可能性那個人是贊同就是說盡量透過借入權的制度然後達到一個債權人跟債務人之間的利益的平衡以上是我報告 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝教授那接著我們請黃珊珊委員"},{"start":3462.345,"end":3463.03,"text":"是黃文言花園"},{"start":3467.014,"end":3492.532,"text":"好 謝謝主席還有各位學者還有各位各單位我想今天非常重要謝謝張偉開這樣的一個公聽會那去年我到立法院來跟中家病委我們開了一個記者會主要就是針對非常多的人他因為他年輕時候幫孩子買的保險因為他欠了錢所以這個保險被解約造成可能他的孩子買不到同樣的保險而受到很大的損害"},{"start":3493.152,"end":3514.679,"text":"所以案子很多 民視廳接到的 承受的壓力也非常大各地方法院的民事執行處整個數量從2023年暴漲總共的執行件數已經達到70幾萬件然後目前為止看起來地方法院都非常非常的痛苦 因為人力不足"},{"start":3515.359,"end":3530.175,"text":"那這個案子我們後來請保險局處理保險局也非常快速的處理了有關保險公司不得在主約解約之後同時終止覆約這個部分你要肯定金管會的動作很快"},{"start":3530.876,"end":3560.496,"text":"但是还是没有办法解决地方法院他们对于这个最高法院裁定的一个理解所以在民事厅里面他们就算有这样的一个规范对地方法院执行法官他可能还是会把人寿保险扩大成成为只要跟人身有关的包括年金险包括可能健康险都在他的执行范围之内所以整个法院的系统也不是非常非常统一的执行方式所以民事厅他们也只能做出指引"},{"start":3561.036,"end":3576.177,"text":"所以我們認為可能用這樣的指引方式還是沒有辦法達到法有一致的標準所以希望金管會推動保險法的修法那當然我們看到很多葉老師的臉書我們看到非常多學者的意見其實對於這個部分"},{"start":3577.919,"end":3600.296,"text":"在2022以前沒有這個問題因為很多人買了保險他就當成另外一種理財的方式甚至可以規避被執行的一些工具那這個裁定之後的確可以橫貧債權人跟債務人的一些權益但是相對的也是侵害了某些被保險人甚至受益人的權益所以這次修法草案拿到"},{"start":3601.607,"end":3630.787,"text":"之後我們就跟保險局做了很多的討論那也謝謝保險局這邊有修正了一個很重要的因為他們本來的保險法裡面是說受益者的介入權要經過保險人同意也就是保險公司要同意我們認為保險公司只是一個中介的單位他沒有一個同意權所以我們希望他只要相關的執行通知受益人他的書面通知送達保險人就可以成效率所以這個部分的效益會"},{"start":3632.767,"end":3654.354,"text":"對受益人的影響會比較小所以也謝謝金管會有做好修正但是一樣的接下去就是不得作為抵押或強制執行的標定這個金額到今天為止它是原用所謂強制執行的一個三個月的基本生活費用的總和那到底是三個月還是幾個月當然這是一個債權債務人的權益橫貧的問題那"},{"start":3657.575,"end":3674.085,"text":"如果按照三個月的話我們算出來大概是七萬多塊的大概是保單價值那它的保額大概是一百萬左右那這部分當然是可以考慮也就是到底一百萬保額是不是對於被保險人或受益人有權益上的保障"},{"start":3674.705,"end":3692.417,"text":"那從我們有一個比較具體的建議因為現在的車禍的強制實行險大概是飽了200萬左右所以這個金額我認為還可以再做討論跟調整那最重要的是就是剛剛兩位老師都有提到說保險公保險其實是要保人為了他的被保險人"},{"start":3694.045,"end":3705.352,"text":"做一些保障而提早付了保費那之後他的生活遭受了變故或者是他因為之後理財不順而欠了錢那到底我們要保障的是"},{"start":3706.584,"end":3723.409,"text":"被保險人還是這個可能是他的債權人這兩個的部分的橫評也是需要做討論所以我們看到保險公會其實之前也有做過統計跟計算尤其是法院我們查出來他民事執行裡面70幾萬件有40萬件將近40多萬件是銀行來執行有18萬件是"},{"start":3731.351,"end":3758.557,"text":"資產管理公司來執行所以其實百分之九十以上都是銀行和資產管理公司所以它是不是百分之百的弱勢債權人這個可能要做一些討論但真正弱勢的債權人比如說車禍的被害人或者是其他真的被他欠錢的這些人我們當然應該保障所以這兩者的橫評我們也希望說聽到各個專家的意見之後我們希望保險局 金管會能夠找出一個能夠確實保障"},{"start":3760.057,"end":3781.938,"text":"被保險人還有受益人的權益那當然第二個就是金管會也去督促一下銀行他們可不可以先執行別的東西不要先來執行保單我想這個也是在執行上面其實我們政府是可以做一些事的那最後就是我們希望保險公司還是要負起相關的告知跟宣導的責任最重要的是以前的執行幾乎"},{"start":3782.879,"end":3806.738,"text":"相關的要保人都是收到法院的通知才知道他被解約了所以接下去所有的通知都應該公開透明一定要送達到相關的保險人跟受益人或被保險人身上這樣受益人他才有效的來行使他的所謂的介入權所以接下來的保險公司的責任我們希望他在投保的時候業務員不要因為自己的業務需求"},{"start":3807.558,"end":3822.831,"text":"大力的宣導說 只要你買了保險 將來就是高枕無憂 絕對不會被查封執行這個可能要從他們的話術裡面 從此之後開始消失 以上 謝謝好 謝謝珊珊委員 接著請汪洪威委員發言"},{"start":3833.794,"end":3852.325,"text":"謝謝主席還有我們今天與會的學者專家還有官員這有關於我們這整個的保單扣押的這個強制執行的相關的修法我在這邊主要是代表非常廣大的這個我們的民眾來表達我們的心聲"},{"start":3853.306,"end":3865.336,"text":"因為這件事情事實上從大法官做出解釋之後然後很多的法院開始做強制執行整個很多的民眾應該我們明代的辦公室幾乎電話都被打爆了即使到現在為止這樣的爭議還有這些的陳情仍然是層出不窮"},{"start":3877.523,"end":3895.014,"text":"我在這邊 我要質疑的是在整個的修法過程裡面 我認為我們的金管會在修法過程裡面它整個的平衡事實上是太過傾向於包含銀行資產公司這些討債的這一方"},{"start":3898.993,"end":3916.685,"text":"那我们在整个的金管会的政策变化在我们的财委会不管是质询或者是类似专案报告大家有很多很多的询答从去年年中开始金管会在这边跟我们所说的"},{"start":3917.762,"end":3934.473,"text":"未来就是我们整个的保单的扣押是在受险保额100万元单笔解约金额10万元以内的八大保单类型好结果呢这样的宣布当然会引起很多的银行跟资产公司的不满"},{"start":3935.74,"end":3951.794,"text":"所以到了去年的下半年再排除了只排除了傷害和健康險而且把豁免強制執行100萬元的上限拿掉而在這個地方我們很多委員一直在詢問"},{"start":3952.975,"end":3970.322,"text":"那麼如果要保障我們這些債務人他們的棺材本我記得我都還在這邊可不可以保留棺材本給他們因為這個是我們在地方行程裡面很多民眾來跟我們來請求來拜託的"},{"start":3973.803,"end":3993.417,"text":"后来金管会在这边也跟我们讲说那么100万元上线拿掉但是解约金是在10万到20万之间结果现在的一个版本变成按最低生活费的1.2倍然后给他三个月"},{"start":3994.633,"end":4023.905,"text":"刚才珊珊委员也讲了当然三个月有人说六个月还是更长的时间但是无论如何现在的一个解约金的标准从过去从一百万十万二十万然后到现在如果以六都来说就算是台北市这个生活基本费最高的一个台北市也不过三个月是七万三千多元"},{"start":4025.123,"end":4043.525,"text":"所以這整個的是大縮水所以有人在問我說王宏威你說要幫我們這些民眾這些被強制執行的民眾保留棺材本那是不是要從變成什麼破棺材"},{"start":4044.502,"end":4069.382,"text":"如果今天我們的很多的債務人尤其如果你看法福基金會因為他們去協助很多比較弱勢的我們知道這些債務人很多都比較弱勢而法福基金會也提出了一個警訊說現在以保單強制執行的債務人他有嚴重高齡化的趨勢"},{"start":4070.868,"end":4077.727,"text":"也就是在60歲以上的債務人他的比例越來越多因為他們本來就是比較弱勢的"},{"start":4078.57,"end":4100.863,"text":"所以我在這裡要拜託我們金管會在這個整個的法案的執行你們的天平不要太過於傾向於銀行資產公司這些債權人他們的角度我知道你們每一次拿出去就會有意見呢誰有意見呢討債的人有意見呢"},{"start":4104.548,"end":4128.997,"text":"到目前為止這兩年來法院所執行的強制執行的保單已經超過一百萬件已經超過一百萬件我們認為這樣的數字會繼續的升高所以超過百萬件來看你就知道這對於一般的民眾到底他的影響是什麼"},{"start":4130.612,"end":4155.891,"text":"我們當然知道欠錢還錢但是剛才也有學者有提到的就是包括有沒有證語的概念誰欠錢誰該還錢這樣子的一個邏輯可能必須要做釐清但無論如何我在這邊要特別的提出來我認為儘管會在整個的"},{"start":4156.983,"end":4183.094,"text":"制定法律跟修法的過程都太過的草率而且太過的傾斜更不要說我們一直希望說這個法趕快的能夠提出來但是到現在為止這個也是在我們立法院財委會大家一再的催促終於提出來可是我必須說未來在立法院的審查的過程裡面"},{"start":4183.954,"end":4201.637,"text":"如果今天金管會是比較傾向於銀行、資產公司這些債權人上面那麼對不起我覺得立法院終究是要為民喉舌那麼現在的這樣的一個解約金的最低標準"},{"start":4202.679,"end":4222.575,"text":"台北市7萬3非六都5萬5千8這樣的水準實在太過偏低那我想這也是未來我們會在修法裡面大家一個最主要的可能還是要在座討論這樣子的一個標準我覺得很難為人接受以上謝謝好 謝謝洪薇接著我們邀請政大風險管理學系與保險學系研究助理何開文"},{"start":4248.78,"end":4274.875,"text":"主席各位委員各位學者專家大家早安很榮幸能夠在這裡代表林建志老師來說明他對於這次修法的一些看法首先老師有提到在現行保險法制下由於同時存在有要保人被保險人受益人等三種不同的主體所以當他們利益不一致的時候呢就會引發保險的很多亂象那今天討論的保單強制執行的議題就是其中之一"},{"start":4275.871,"end":4289.963,"text":"因此老師認為如果我們要杜絕保險法這些問題呢首先應該是要先推動這個保險法的現代化的核心只不過很可惜還沒有展開所以老師這次的意見還是會以現行保險法體制架構為基礎"},{"start":4292.294,"end":4318.696,"text":"針對借入權的部分林老師認為引入借入權可能會引發以下的問題第一點有抵觸現行保險法制的疑慮依照現行保險法的規定呢邀保人是必須要具備保險利益的然而在修正草案的第123條之二第一項借入權人並不一定對被保險人具有保險利益如果容許沒有保險利益的人去成為新的邀保人就像是開了另外一條道路通行那有抵觸現行保險法制"},{"start":4319.625,"end":4346.945,"text":"接著點老師認為引入介入權有違反保險學理升高道德風險的可能基於沒有利益沒有損失無損失無保險的這個學理呢那保險如果沒有利益其實它就是一個變相的渡泊所以我們才要求要有保險利益而這也是保險人控制道德風險的一個必要的手段那介入權的行使會改變這個原本的邀保人那新舊邀保人間對被保險人的關係身份可能是不同的"},{"start":4347.799,"end":4362.499,"text":"那相關的風險當然也會隨之變動應該要容許保險人去重新評估這個風險如果這次的草案去賦予欠缺保險利益的人有介入權的話那無疑是剝奪保險人的核保權更會提升到的風險"},{"start":4364.022,"end":4385.903,"text":"第三點老師認為介入權行使的要件有剝奪被保險人人格權的疑慮依照現行的草案介入權人必須要經過邀保人及被保險人的同意才能行使介入那在這個前提要件下縱使是被保險人自己想要去延續這個保障那如果沒有邀保人的同意那被保險人其實也是無從去介入的"},{"start":4387.116,"end":4404.117,"text":"如果被保險人因為他的體框碾賣沒有辦法繼續去投保其他類型的保險那這個保障將沒有辦法繼續延續對於想要延續保障的被保險人來說呢他竟然是需要透過其他人的同意才可以為之那這個無疑是剝奪被保險的人格權甚至有物化人格的嫌疑"},{"start":4407.813,"end":4433.532,"text":"第四點老師認為有可能會產生利益衝突當介入權人有數個人而且同時都表示想要介入原保險契約的時候這個時候要怎麼處理這個草案並沒有提及那為什麼會想要付錢介入大概都是因為這個保單是具有金錢利益的然後就會成為利害關係人去覬覦或是爭奪的對象那一旦邀保人介入權人被保險人這三個人的意見有不合然後協調不當的時候就會引發一些家族紛爭或者是社會問題"},{"start":4434.753,"end":4457.837,"text":"甚至有時候會將矛頭指向保險業者或是主管機關比方說邀保人的子女、被保險人的子女、受益人同時或先後主張想要行使介入權但是邀保人只同意他自己的子女介入那這個情況下勢必會造成邀保人、被保險人跟受益人三方間的衝突那草案因為沒有規定優先的順序產生這個衝突的話是可以可想而知的"},{"start":4459.005,"end":4473.487,"text":"第五點 借入權的立法老師認為並不符合立法的成本效益借入權的制度源自於奧地利、德國、日本以及瑞士其他國家似乎沒有類似的制度那在這些國家中行使借入權的案件其實也是相當的稀少"},{"start":4475.584,"end":4493.164,"text":"大家可以想一下如果你自己有錢那就在外面再去買一張保單就好了其實也不用去介入別人的保單但如果是擔心被保險人體控可保性的問題也可以透過市場的機制以實務調適因應即可如果立法只是為了要處理少數的個案那似乎不太符合成本效益"},{"start":4494.721,"end":4518.354,"text":"因此建制老師提出了另外一個概念就是建立保單重置的實務指引因應這些延續保障的需求可以兼具調整的彈性什麼是保單重置呢就是指在保險契約遭到扣押的時候有保險人提供與原保險契約相同內容的保險也就是一個新契約有被保險人或者是對被保險人具有保險利益的人依照等價交換的心神"},{"start":4519.114,"end":4537.033,"text":"繳交與原保單具有的解約金或是保單價值備金相同的數額給保險人之後成為重置保單的要保人以延續被保險人原有的保障而原有的保險契約則繼續強制執行程序兩個契約間的關係是非常獨立的就大概像這個圖示操作"},{"start":4538.257,"end":4550.255,"text":"那透過保單重置的這個實務指引呢可以達成介入權立法的目的也可以比較有效快速的解決現場目前的市場困境當然也可以避免上述草案所衍生的問題那如果在建立這個指引的時候"},{"start":4553.86,"end":4569.72,"text":"或是行政含利上有調整的必要可以在這個金融保險法規創新調適平台上協調處理就不需要進行比較繁雜的立法程序而且實務指引是比較具有彈性的主管機關可以隨時去因應情況的變化與調整也不會耗費過多的行政成本"},{"start":4571.089,"end":4598.94,"text":"由於重置的保單跟原保單的內容完全相符也不會影響到保險人的權益被保險人的身體狀況並沒有改變所以也不會增加承保的風險雖然保險人能夠保有核保權限但他其實也不用再進行這個核保對於新的邀保人或者是被保險人來說因為這是一個新的保險契約所以自然就不需要原邀保人的同意也不會發生上述利益衝突的狀況可以更快速的繼續原有的保障"},{"start":4600.54,"end":4627.554,"text":"那建制老師也做了一個介入權跟保單重置的一個比較第一點就行政成本而言介入權是需要透過修法才可以引入那保單重置呢只需要透過行業自律或是行政指導就可以立即施行第二點就保險利益而言介入權的創設可以讓沒有保險利益的人去介入成為一個新的邀保人有抵觸現行保險法制升高到的風險的問題而保單重置只是維持現狀並沒有這個問題"},{"start":4630.08,"end":4655.876,"text":"第三點就保障空窗期而言呢介入權可能會因為執行程序繁複而延宕可以介入的時間等待的時間是比較長的那財保單重置保單一經扣押就可以執行就可以進行那等待的時間是相對比較短第三 第四點就利害關係人衝突的部分呢因為介入權有列舉非常多不具保險利益的親屬那可能會導致更多人"},{"start":4656.716,"end":4681.881,"text":"介入而加劇利益衝突那保單重置則是維持現狀最後一點做保險人的核保權限而言介入權是剝奪了保險人的核保權限即便這個介入者並沒有保險利益保險人也只能被動接受對於保險人的風險控管是非常不利的而保單重置是採取實務執行的方式性質上仍是保有核保的權限那比較表大概是這樣子"},{"start":4683.732,"end":4708.536,"text":"最後總結一下建制老師對於這次修法的看法老師認為介入權的引進可能沒有辦法解決現在的問題而會製造更多的問題因此表達反對的立場老師認為如果想要迅速有效的解決這些諸多的問題可以由主管機關跟保險業協力建制這個保單重置的實務質疑那將會是比較有效的處理方針以上謝謝大家"},{"start":4711.188,"end":4719.933,"text":"好 謝謝何凱文研究助理 謝謝接著我們要邀請林思明委員思明委員發言好 謝謝主席"},{"start":4733.73,"end":4748.335,"text":"我想針對今天這個題目保單抵債保險法該怎麼修我想非常感謝今天主席排這個法案也非常感謝我們這麼多的專家學者大家一起來討論我想我們我國的保險市場"},{"start":4749.315,"end":4772.508,"text":"在這20幾年來可以說是展現驚人的成長人壽保險以及年金保險的投保率已經屢創新高平均我們國人每一個人只有的保單已經超過2.6張保險的滲透力一居全球前列隨著保險商品的日益多元化"},{"start":4773.208,"end":4800.002,"text":"我們保障生活資產傳承以及分散風險的功能備受民眾青睞然而保單現在成為我們財產價值的一部分也可能成為就是我們債務人面臨財務困境的時候被法院強制執行的標的就是我們現在一直重視的保單抵債所以引發很多事務上的爭議"},{"start":4801.443,"end":4822.8,"text":"但是我想剛才有幾位專家寫者或委員也大家對於說最高法院民事大法庭在2022年12月作出了108年排抗之地897號裁定之後當然這個事務上的爭議已經不存在了"},{"start":4824.075,"end":4848.371,"text":"但是我們比較這個就是遺案的當這個判決出來之後所造成的整個效應就整個我們法院充斥著保單抵債的強制執行的案件所以造成說整個司法事務界尤其我們的強制執行處所有的這些執行人員工作量大增大家疲於奔命"},{"start":4849.392,"end":4866.868,"text":"根據金管會統計,自2023年1月到2020年9月,總共有92.8萬件保單被扣押等於一年有53萬件被扣押,平均每個月有4.4萬件"},{"start":4869.41,"end":4888.248,"text":"兩年來全國有超過百萬件的保單被扣押這個非常的驚人所以我剛才提到說我們的全國各地方法院的民事執行處的人員真的是疲於奔命工作量大增造成說他們每天加班兩到三個小時"},{"start":4889.309,"end":4910.834,"text":"也沒有辦法 因為後面的案子一直來舊的案件還沒有解決 新的案件又進來所以法院的人力非常的不足去年我有跟鍾嘉斌委員 還有黃珊珊委員 也有召開一個公聽會"},{"start":4912.014,"end":4926.943,"text":"在我們的司法法治委員會也有就這個議題我們充分的做討論希望金管會能夠就這個議題好好的來修法我們的保險局要修法來做一個解決我想這一次金管會的一個修法我們大概來看一下對於這個"},{"start":4936.728,"end":4960.072,"text":"這麼高的保單的扣押我們一直覺得說這個會讓我們許多的債務人他的家庭喪失生活保險的一個保障所以為了兼顧要保人或被保險人仍可維持一定的保險保障以及債權人也可以實現他的債權利益我們整個強制執行保險契約金額的門檻以及"},{"start":4965.094,"end":4981.575,"text":"要保人及被保險人或其配偶父母子女或兄弟姊妹等可否行使介入權使保險區的效率得以延續維持他的生活經濟所必須的保障這幾個點我們都必須在這一次的修法裡面去做充分的考量"},{"start":4982.296,"end":5004.941,"text":"我們看到這次金管會所提出的保險法的修正的部分條文就保單解約金的強制執行門檻的規定是當單一受險保單的解約金未超過債務人所在地區每人每月最低生活費1.2倍乘以3個月這樣的一個標準的時候該保單才不得被扣押或強制執行"},{"start":5007.361,"end":5024.239,"text":"但我個人認為當邀保人為債務人時多數他仍需透過工作勞務的所得來償還他所負擔的債務以及維持他家庭生活的經濟也就是說若採用最低生活費當作門檻標準"},{"start":5026.221,"end":5055.781,"text":"一來金額將會低於要保人也就是債務人本來依靠生活的薪資所得二來各縣市的金額數字也無法一致所以對債務人而言保障生活為序的需求是不應住的地方而有所不同因此本席的提案是明定各有效契約之解約金的債權金額位於當年政府公告之最低工資的三個月金額者"},{"start":5056.221,"end":5083.479,"text":"不得作為扣押或強制執行的標的以最低工資來制定除能讓全國的金額統一標準統一外也能夠更加保障邀保債務人的保險保障權利亦能兼顧債權人的一個債權利益至於金管會於修法中也提到包含介入權的制定健康與傷害保險不得作為強制執行的標的"},{"start":5084.46,"end":5111.738,"text":"我想這樣的一個修法的方向呢跟我的提案呢是這個方向是一致的所以我認為這次這個修法是我們予以肯定最後我要期待透過這次的修法能讓保險的保單的強制執行更為合理化一方面要保障債權人依法追索的財產權另一方面我們要確保保護在面臨債務危機的時候仍能夠"},{"start":5113.159,"end":5136.84,"text":"保留足以維持基本生活的保佔的資產並且因強制執行而喪失保單的功能也讓我們法院的工作人員的工作量可以更為縮減與加速進行以上 謝謝好 謝謝市民委員接著我們請政治大學法律學系特聘教授兼副院長葉教授"},{"start":5144.583,"end":5164.451,"text":"主席今天在場的各位學者專家還有列席的機關代表大家早安很高興今天有這個機會來跟大家談一談我對這個議題的看法我研究這個議題大概有十年左右的時間從高等法院做出法律座談會的結論之前"},{"start":5165.291,"end":5190.941,"text":"就開始一直到實務見解最高法院大法庭做出一個變化性的一個轉折意見那我想各方都有不同的出發點跟考量不過容我提醒大家一件事情就是說當我們在對於受到強制執行的債務人寄予萬分的同情的時候其實不要忘記說我們的強制執行的制度呢其實是一體適用於所有的債權債務關係"},{"start":5192.722,"end":5213.847,"text":"而債權債務關係是具有高度的多樣的面向的當然在比例上最高的確實是銀行的這些債權以及資產管理公司的債權但是其他我在研究這個案例的過程裡面其實不斷的看到不同面貌的債權人比方說最常見的車禍的被害人"},{"start":5214.773,"end":5243.629,"text":"然後也有被父母親違反撫養義務該養的未成年子女不養然後積欠了撫養費用那經過法院判決確定之後還是執行不到而這個不負責任的父親呢名下只剩下保單那在當時呢其實我們的還是實務上還是多數見解是採高院的座談會的見解是說所有的保單都不能執行所以這個小孩子在申請像是執行爸爸的保單的時候是敗訴的"},{"start":5244.659,"end":5268.513,"text":"是被駁回的然後還有我在最近因為對自己的言論收拾上所以我到很多法院的執行處去跟他們溝通討論幫忙去想一些怎樣執行的解決方案的時候因為有司法事務官跟我講說他們覺得豁免的好像有點太多了吧因為我手邊的案件的債權是性侵害的被害人是被家暴的被害人"},{"start":5270.31,"end":5293.071,"text":"所以這些被害人他也是這裡的債權人所以在我們的法律制度裡面債權人的面貌其實是很多元的那只要一旦我們訂出一個標準之後一體適用在這個不同面貌的債權債務關係的時候其實是太寬還是太延這樣子的判斷就很難去做結論那當然再進入我"},{"start":5293.482,"end":5317.66,"text":"我個人談的這些意見之前我剛才聽到一些蠻多元的觀點我想有機會做一點回應那當然有人主張說受險是要把人為了保障被保險而訂立的甚至在很早之前就訂立了所以似乎不適合作為這個強制執行的課題那我還是要聲明一點除了受險之外的險種"},{"start":5319.926,"end":5345.698,"text":"多對被保險具有保障功能除了受險以外的健康錢財產保險都是在保障被保險唯獨人壽保險不是人壽保險保障的是將來可以領到保險金的受益人被保險呢就是個保險標的今天他被投保之後被在他身上投保一個人壽保險之後大家就等著他死亡了"},{"start":5347.057,"end":5373.005,"text":"這個被保險絕對不可能領到以他作為被保險的保險區域的任何保障所以呢去談這個說對被保險的保障作用在受險結局的強制領域上我覺得是有一點偏誤那至於剛剛有提到說我就是志鋒老師有提到說在十年前我送給我太太的一百萬十年後為什麼會被執行呢那我覺得這個例子跟"},{"start":5375.506,"end":5397.543,"text":"解約金的加徵執行是無關的為什麼無關?因為如果10年前送給我他100萬,那財產已經移轉了我他已經取得100萬的所有權了可是保單呢?不是保單這個受益人的權利是要在保險事故發生的時候他才取得權利在保險事故發生之前,受益人對於這個保單只有一個期待"},{"start":5398.717,"end":5427.94,"text":"而這個期貸沒有受到法律的任何保護因為邀保人隨時可以去變更撤銷他的收益權他還有很多變數足以使他不會取得保險金的情況比方說他沒有活得比被保險久那所以這並不是一個適當的比喻現在在保險事故發生前這個保單的價值結局就是邀保人的權益那我想這個是一個要跟大家分享的那今天的提綱裡面呢我想這個好關於這個報告提綱我很快來談一下"},{"start":5428.44,"end":5445.609,"text":"保單價值這個結約金是屬於夭壩確定的財產性權益所以它的法律上也是夭壩對保險人的金錢債權就好像是夭壩對於他的雇主的薪資債權或者是他對銀行的存款債權在法律上的評價是完全一樣的"},{"start":5446.71,"end":5462.352,"text":"所以他當然應該作為他的責任財產作為清償他債務的一個標的這跟他是先負債後買保險還是先買保險後負債是無關的就像我今天在負債之前買一棟房子十年之後我負債我還是要用這個房子要被法拍"},{"start":5463.342,"end":5488.389,"text":"要拿出來清場的債務所以我們談的關鍵是責任財產談的不是障礙債權債權是特殊樣態責任財產是一般樣態那提綱二保障對象是受益人這我剛剛已經提過了而受益人未來的期待並不應該比現在已經確定的債權已經取得執行的民營債權要更優先獲得保護我覺得沒有存在這樣的道理因為"},{"start":5489.129,"end":5510.365,"text":"受益人大部分情況都是無償取得無償取得一個權利為什麼要比有償的債權人或者是權利受到侵害而產生的債權人為什麼要先做了保護呢這個其實在比較法上是很奇怪的如果說今天我們真的要讓受益人確定的獲得這個保障其實法律上本來就有方法我投保人之後我拋棄處分權"},{"start":5513.172,"end":5535.74,"text":"拋棄並跟撤銷受益人的權利那這個保單就確定了會歸屬於受益人那就不再是邀保人的責任財產所以現行法律制度有機會讓邀保人徹底貫徹他照顧受益人的目的只要投保指定完受益人之後就放棄處分權就好了但是現在大部分邀保人沒有這個動機因為他想要掌控對這個保單價值的處分權"},{"start":5538.444,"end":5559.058,"text":"又要保持主委主委又想要不拿來還債這個我並不是這樣子的認同好那至於提綱三裡面就是健康險傷害險要不要豁免執行呢我覺得沒有解約金的健康險傷害險本來他就不會沒有存在一個保單的現金價值所以他本來就不應該成為執行的標的那"},{"start":5560.014,"end":5584.935,"text":"沒有成為執行標的必要當然就沒有豁免的必要所以要把它豁免當然有一個宣示性的意義至於說節約金很低的健康險傷害險我覺得當然這個透過要把它豁免我個人是覺得贊同的因為其實我們的強制執行法本來就有一個第一條第二項的比例原則去執行一個很小的節約金然後讓他失去一個未來的醫療保障其實恐怕"},{"start":5585.555,"end":5605.144,"text":"就已經有違反了強制執行比喻的原則所以今天在保險法裡面要把它明擺的豁免我覺得是OK的至於豁免的種類呢我們還是要記得一個原則強制執行是原則不准強制執行是例外而什麼時候要遇到這個例外就是我們的執行不能夠讓債務人活不下去所以這強制執行法的第52條122條都有規定就是遇到侵害債務人的生存權的時候我們強制執行就要停下來"},{"start":5613.067,"end":5639.177,"text":"所以在貨品執行就是應該以他的基本生活做標準所以在這個原則之下我們現行的這個行政院的草案連結到簽署一百二十二條我覺得個人是可以贊同每個地方的生活保障需求本來就不一樣這個符合現行的法律原則至於小兒中老保險不放進去我覺得也很合理小兒中老一點也不小兒啦你覺得九十萬是很少的錢嗎"},{"start":5640.498,"end":5652.453,"text":"然後或者是說解約金,解約金其實是可能很多的小和中島在很多公司其實設計成有儲蓄性我在我的書面資料提到台銀人壽的保單繳10年之後保價金是30萬繳買20年之後解約金是60幾萬"},{"start":5656.772,"end":5681.08,"text":"那是很多錢你今天告訴這些車禍悲憾、性侵的悲憾說我要幫債務人員留下這麼多錢你的損害就算了這個我個人不太贊同最後當然就是一個就是一些小的問題因為時間關係我只肯定說借物權我覺得是一個給收益人一個保障的機會讓你有機會去救保單但是你沒有能力救沒有意願救你要尊重"},{"start":5682.382,"end":5711.374,"text":"用得少只代表大家不稀罕這張保單那就不要救嘛但是我給他一個機會我覺得就是可以兼顧受益人你可以拿雞蛋出來換未來那隻雞不要讓我們殺雞取卵對不對但是必要的時候我們就是要殺雞取卵因為被害人很可憐所以呢那如果你不願意你可以願意拿出一隻雞蛋保全這隻雞我覺得這是一個我們一個法律的一個良善的出發點那基本上大概不好意思 耽誤一點時間不來到此 謝謝"},{"start":5713.46,"end":5716.104,"text":"好 謝謝葉教授 接著我們請那個彥秀委員發言"},{"start":5726.646,"end":5748.141,"text":"謝謝張偉排了今天的公聽會我也很同意剛剛葉教授的說法因為剛才您的說法其實我常常在基層活動的時候跑到民眾跟我反映這件事就是有關於保單比賽這件事情應該不能影響到他們最基本的家人家庭或生活權"},{"start":5749.102,"end":5768.413,"text":"但是我看到今天這個版本我本來認為說我們要修法看怎麼樣跟我們目前的強制執行法有一些互補的作用把相關的法令修得更完整但是看到目前金管會送出來修法的方向保險法修法的方向我憑良心講我是有一些失望的就是說我覺得它並沒有解決現行執行的亂象"},{"start":5774.176,"end":5790.231,"text":"相對的我們修法我們希望是保障債權人跟債務人的相關的權益但是我覺得目前我看到金款會修法的方向我覺得並沒有做到這兩件事情"},{"start":5791.091,"end":5814.148,"text":"從去年五月份開始的時候司法院跟金管會在司法法治委員會的專報來說我們看到就是說111年12月最高法院作出的解釋原則上是允許保單抵債可以做強制執行但是我們看到目前保單抵債的做法在我們的法院的民事執行處的書記官跟執行人員"},{"start":5816.69,"end":5831.245,"text":"目前我聽到的是叫苦連天甚至醞釀離職因為這樣的做法變成說他們要去清查的實在是數量非常非常的多就是說某一些債務人他可能有10個20個保單假設就是說"},{"start":5835.149,"end":5857.035,"text":"原來一個人他有負債那要去清查他可能變成光是清查一個人他可能就十件二十件以上的狀況他都要去了解他是不是保安抵債有沒有達到如何公平合理的這個狀況對債務人的權益是不是有損失到最小包括會不會影響債務人的生活包括他家屬的生活等等"},{"start":5858.395,"end":5866.881,"text":"這個都造成現在業務上的量非常非常的大所以在執行法庭的書記官跟執行人員目前是叫苦連天那要解決現在的狀況跟亂象我覺得不是目前儘管會提的修法查案就可以解決的"},{"start":5877.108,"end":5902.848,"text":"我本來以為可以解決但是我今天看到這樣的版本其實答案是否定的我們是從強制執行法從目前看的版本我們是抄了部分的半套但是我覺得抄都可以抄得更好可以抄得更好並沒有解決原來我們希望達到的問題所以包括很多保險法的學者都質疑應該在處理強制執行法的時候"},{"start":5903.857,"end":5915.444,"text":"我覺得應該跟司法院私底下應該做更多的溝通我們才把這個版本提出來我們才有辦法達到司法院跟我們金管會保險法有互相"},{"start":5917.296,"end":5933.607,"text":"彌補或互相互補的作用把這套法修得更完整那剛才葉教授有提到就是說我們如何去達到債務人包括跟他一起共同生活所必須這個是必要去思考到的不能做強制執行那"},{"start":5934.608,"end":5956.619,"text":"目前我看到強制執行法也有提到這個版本但是我們這一次修法的方向也有也就是說我們也明確規定生活所需是每個人每個月最低生活費1.2倍的標準計算跟今晚會提議的意義都一樣那我們這一次提修法的方向其實就是疊床架屋"},{"start":5957.259,"end":5973.991,"text":"就是說我覺得強制執行法有的我們有沒有必要同樣再說一次或者我們應該去思考到底現在司法院執行的方向到底有什麼缺失是我們保險法可以再調整的那目前我看到確實仍舊有幾個問題就是說我們目前"},{"start":5977.613,"end":5994.558,"text":"提到執行機關認定的最低生活費是合併計算在債務人全部的受險契約但是監管會我們目前修法的方向是個別計算好比譬如說我是債務人我可能有十個保單我可以化整為零"},{"start":5995.798,"end":6021.026,"text":"我有一百萬 假設我有一百萬我可以把它分成十個保單那你就扣不到啦 對不對那如果是合併計算的話可能你們就可以用債務抵扣的方式所以仍舊 我覺得有化整為零的執行上的破口我覺得這是 我是提醒金管會要去思考的雖然你們覺得說從事該法的行為可能性不高譬如說某一個人他可能想到說他可能"},{"start":6022.126,"end":6043.425,"text":"宣布破產 它可能會有很多的債務人我就趕快去買保單 我馬上分成十個 二十個我當然希望它是個案 但是我覺得這個方向上是必要去思考的但是我還是要提醒我最後三十秒就好了我覺得還有幾件事情就是我覺得要去思考就是說債務人現在已經在領生存保險金到底能不能強制執行"},{"start":6045.166,"end":6069.277,"text":"還有一些保險你們都比我更熟悉它是可能從很年輕就開始繳或子女幫忙繳或父母買給子女從很年輕就開始繳繳到它可能它不是每個月領錢它可能是到最後它可能是包括它有cover一些我們去住院開刀的費用那些都被抵扣我曾經就在市場碰到就是說我想要去開刀我本來以為說這個可以cover"},{"start":6069.677,"end":6094.048,"text":"後來現在被債務抵扣他可能就沒有辦法使用這個有一些受險他是包含一些健康保險的覆約在裡頭到底能不能強制執行保險的樣態很多所以我覺得這也要去思考的那保險金太少要不要強制執行我都要提醒金管會這幾個面向要去考量"},{"start":6094.693,"end":6110.428,"text":"因為有些是賦約他可能買保險他送的賦約是你到時候開刀重大你可以開刀那我順便就是幫你cover一些你住院的費用跟天數甚至是有一些是打標靶藥物他可能可以幫你cover一些自費的"},{"start":6111.189,"end":6138.298,"text":"所以我覺得面向可能如果在這一次我們要修我覺得這幾個點應該要去思考未來有沒有需要執行機關衡量跟調查民眾會不會受到無意執行的滋擾會不會因為金管會的草案而出現具體的標準我覺得這個問題如果沒有辦法解決的話這個修法就沒有太大的意義在我看來就跟司法院現在強制執行法是跌床架屋以上是我的建議 謝謝"},{"start":6140.421,"end":6143.104,"text":"主席各位來賓大家好因為我今天"},{"start":6160.851,"end":6178.604,"text":"就針對保險強制的執行發表一些個人的意見因為其實保險的樣態非常多種因為我之前服務於銀行的財富管理部門還有證券公司的海外的財富管理部"},{"start":6179.983,"end":6207.436,"text":"那也在金融研訓院服務過所以其實我接觸過的一些客戶多數是為了要把他們投保的很多是一種資產的傳承但是其實我也遇過顧客其實在外面已經負債非常多他想要把錢藏在保險公司裡面的這種樣態都有所以我們要如何界定這種東西"},{"start":6208.757,"end":6227.703,"text":"因為保險一直是我們非常國人非常喜愛的一個理財的或者是傳承的一個工具所以我們平均的保單平均每個人大概有2.6張大概是已經是全世界名列前茅了然後但是因為這幾年因為"},{"start":6231.24,"end":6249.774,"text":"很多人已經沒有債務人已經沒有錢執行沒有財富的時候現在保單成為執行的標的像現在每年大概有接近五十萬件然後真正被強制執行的案件大概是兩萬兩千件左右所以"},{"start":6250.595,"end":6269.596,"text":"所以實際上可以被執行的案件並不多所以我覺得我們應該要把它界定出來哪些是不能強制執行或者是說不適合強制執行的那這樣可以減輕了法務部或者是法院的一些相關的工作"},{"start":6272.554,"end":6280.758,"text":"但是我們什麼能強制執行因為其實這個就要去考慮到債務人和債務人裡的保單裡的受益者和債權人之前的權益關係我認為"},{"start":6294.405,"end":6321.283,"text":"首先我們應該要界定出來哪些是不適合的我認為健康險是非常不適合的因為特別是像所謂的一般的健康險、癌險很多他其實這些錢他本來就不是為了要把他錢藏起來他其實他是可能為了照顧自己的小孩照顧父母或者照顧自己"},{"start":6323.064,"end":6344.574,"text":"這部分如果他在一定的比例之下其實健康險我是認為是最不適合執行的然後院院以下的意外險和呂平險這部分其實我也認為不太適合但剛剛燕秀委員有講到的拆單的部分那本來是我有特別想要提醒的一部分因為如果因為我看到原本的"},{"start":6345.967,"end":6352.872,"text":"版本裡頭有提到10萬元以下的受險幹嘛的其實這部分就跟過去的針對那個"},{"start":6357.314,"end":6381.181,"text":"定期儲蓄險的時候補充保費的時候會發生一樣的情形因為到最後很多會發生很多客戶去進行拆單不但造成了銀行的困擾而且也造成了一種不公平所以這部分還有另外的話保單裡頭還會有所謂的保單借款你把很多人其實他可能已經先把保單"},{"start":6382.601,"end":6405.181,"text":"進行借款的所以他可能沒有執行的他其實他已經沒有清償的價值這也是到底所以除了在這個考慮之下他可能是同樣一張一百萬的授權保單但是有一個人是沒有去做保單借款有一個人去做了保單借款那可能又造成了他可不可以執行的一種不公"},{"start":6405.942,"end":6420.464,"text":"不公平所以我覺得在這方面的話我們可能要去注意另外的話剛剛也提到了對介入權的部分因為我覺得因為過去的剛剛也有"},{"start":6422.122,"end":6447.176,"text":"學者提到了所謂的他不適合介入權他用保單重置可是我覺得保單重置有個問題因為你賦予了他那個保險人的要核保權的時候其實他通常不會核保因為為什麼現在有些人會care希望他有介入權因為過去的保單特別是健康險或者是"},{"start":6449.02,"end":6468.41,"text":"癌險那些的東西其實保險公司都賠很多錢所以他不會同意如果你給他這個核保權他不會同意讓他用原條件來承保的所以這部分我是覺得除非你要用保單重置就是拿掉了保險人"},{"start":6470.871,"end":6489.473,"text":"保險公司他的核保權他一定要核保那我們我覺得保險從事跟借入權其實是可以就不需要借入權但是在沒有拿掉他核保權之前我們應該我覺得借入權是一個很好的工具他可以賦予"},{"start":6491.772,"end":6516.1,"text":"利害關係人在一定期間當然現在大部分都是談三個月他可以代償債務或者變更他成為藥保人新的藥保人的機會讓這張保單能保持他的效益也就是一種保證他這是一個債權人他也可以拿到的這一筆的解約金所以他算是一種橫憑債權人和"},{"start":6520.182,"end":6538.499,"text":"和那個厲害關係人的受益人之間的權益的一個很好的中介的角色 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝周研究員那接著我們請政治大學風險管理保險學系那陳俊賢教授謝謝 陳教授請"},{"start":6553.911,"end":6582.56,"text":"主席好各位委員各位長官各位先進那很高興今天有機會那可以來這邊針對這個議題那跟各位來就個人的一些心得來做一點交流那以這個議題呢以我個人出錢的一個看法來說的話我個人的一個見解是從過去以來那都是一貫的我認為說保險契約呢應該是它是有一個跟一般財產權的一個相關的一個性質可是它有它特殊之處"},{"start":6583.3,"end":6603.161,"text":"所以我個人一直是主張說我們是不是可以再採取一個基礎的保險的一個部分可以讓他可以豁免強制執行那超額呢多保的一個部分讓他當然還是要回到這個財產的一個本質可以當成強制執行的一個標的那秉持這樣的一個比例原則的一個原理那我們其實不應該有所謂的一個"},{"start":6604.542,"end":6625.723,"text":"不計代價的一個強制執行我們很多的地方都有這個成本效益的一個相關的一個考慮那一樣的我們在這個介入權介入權是一個利益良好非常良善的一個機制可是我們是不是也要考慮到說是不是要維持它保險的一個本質維持一個基本的風險控管所以這是我比較核心的一個想法首先跟各位先進來去做一個"},{"start":6626.683,"end":6641.739,"text":"說明那我想呢在我們的這個五個一個問題裡面以第一個問題跟第二個問題的話我的見解已經說明了就是我認為是應該是基礎的部分基礎一定的額度或是特定的一個嫌重這應該是可以豁免不要執行的這樣可以去有助"},{"start":6642.439,"end":6660.638,"text":"維持這個債權跟債務人之間的一個平衡也努力的讓他不要有過度那至於說我們剛才幾位專家學的先進其實就有提到說有一些人或是有些狀況他也是蠻可憐或是需要保護的那其實像有的國家他對於這種豁免的狀況也有做一些特別的一些除外"},{"start":6661.058,"end":6689.958,"text":"比如說針對撫養債權撫養債權的人可能他是非常可憐比如說這個爸爸非常不負責任沒有付撫養費那這部分的是不是也可以是不用給他這個太多的一個保護所以可以用更多的一個類型化來去做細部的切分可是基本上我們還是贊成說在基本的額度之下要給予這個被保險人或收益人這邊一個基礎的一個可能的一個保障那論述的一個核心應該是在於說保險它具有一個倍數放大的一個效果"},{"start":6690.438,"end":6706.753,"text":"現在投保的一個保險金未來可能是會變成更多的這個住院醫療的保險金那變成癌症的一個保險金或是說變成受險的一個保險金那這部分是有差別的所以我們在對他進行強制執行的時候應該要特別特別的這樣的一個小心"},{"start":6707.874,"end":6732.026,"text":"當然這個受險大部分是會反映在這個死亡的一個給付是在對於這個受益人而言可是我們也不要忘記說其實受險他有時候蠻常在對於你失能的時候特別是完全失能的時候他其實是可以提供一定程度的保護而且是可以被保險人的所以這部分其實他多多少少對這些消費者有一些基本的一些保護好那在利益衡量上其實我剛才幾位前輩都有說這個其實"},{"start":6733.807,"end":6749.359,"text":"我覺得在特別的一個狀況其實都一定都有那我們應該可以關注到通案那事實上以目前的一個狀況來說確實九成以上都是法人機構資產管理公司為債權人那所以說這部分其實在我們在做立案衡量的時候應該要特別的一個小心"},{"start":6750.2,"end":6778.316,"text":"那接下來對於這些價值甚微的健康險跟傷害險我個人也是贊成這個各位立委跟這個行政院版本的一個立場那這部分通常它是沒有保價金或是價值甚微的那這部分基於保障的一個目的那或是說你把它做主婦約的一個拆分的一個觀察這部分應該是可以贊同它後面強制執行的好那對於這個後面的額度來說我覺得有一個部分可以跟可以提出來的交流是說"},{"start":6779.096,"end":6808.656,"text":"以目前的一個行政院的一個版本約莫大概5到7萬這個部分到底是不是足夠那當然我們可以理解說債權人的權利也不能偏廢也需要保護那可是這個基本的一個額度到底是應該多少那這個部分我覺得可以做更細緻的一個討論那像比如說我們可以去考慮到說像剛才幾位委員有講到說這個比如說商帳費用的一個部分那商帳費用被我們想像就是這個到底是他自己要負責還是說他無辜的這些家屬要負責我們假設說今天這個債務人真的很可惡"},{"start":6809.216,"end":6833.37,"text":"對不對 他就欠債了 然後他生病了他的家屬也可能是無辜的 要去幫他負擔這些東西或是說他今天失能了 那這部分他自己其實是沒有辦法養活自己的所以我們去看這些 目前不管是我們詳細執行法這些三個月的基本費用或是等等的一些費用 其實都是非常基本的一個額度他其實是不能夠去應付到說他有些身體有些狀況 或是失能的一些狀況"},{"start":6834.29,"end":6858.067,"text":"所以說這部分這個額度到底是不是足夠這部分或許可以值得考慮那一樣我們在論述的時候常常會去顧慮到說是強制執行法122條這個基本的一個生活費用那我們可以思考是說其實強制執行法122條它其實是蠻久以前的一個條文它最近一次修正是2018年那個時候以大部分的一個司法實務見解其實保單大部分都還是不能強制執行"},{"start":6858.747,"end":6885.093,"text":"所以說以當時這個立法的意旨來說它可能就是一個單純的生活的一個費用那就是一萬多塊讓你可以剛好就是可以活下去那是不是足夠說去做一些風險的一些處理那做一些預備這部分可能是有疑問的並沒有當時的立法背景或沒有考慮到人民的一個對未來的一個相關風險的一個需求所以在這邊呢其實很多專家學者都有提到說第一個額度的部分"},{"start":6886.133,"end":6903.884,"text":"或許說不要說調整但是不是可以盡量務實一點這是第一個第二個呢是不是其他的一個相關的撫養人撫養人那個部分是不是也應該考慮一下那這是一個可以去注意的一個地方那最後第五個議題呢針對於介入權的一個部分那我個人也是敬表尊重"},{"start":6905.004,"end":6922.419,"text":"我知道說有一些國家有這樣的制度利益都非常良善可是我們現在要引進台灣那我們台灣的一個保險法制是不是有它一個既有的一個體系架構那如果說要引進的話是不是說我們在它的一個成效效果還比較不確定的時候我們是不是可以先像大船入港一樣先考慮比較"},{"start":6923.26,"end":6938.732,"text":"和緩的方式或是對現行法體系這個衝擊比較小的方式就像我們在討論豁免和額度的時候我們不要太多嘛避免過猶不及那一樣我們在引進一個新法制的時候是不是先考慮一下對現行法衝擊比較小的一個方法"},{"start":6939.707,"end":6968.73,"text":"好那我這邊大概的幾個的觀察點有幾個那我想有一部分剛來在林建志老師的報告其實已經有講過了目前我們台灣保險法架構在訂位前有保險利益有書面同意那現在實務上在契約變更的時候其實也是因為保險公司會實際上審核會看財務能力適合度等等這些東西好那我們如果是借助權依照現在的定位它是一個行程權它造成法定的一個契約的一個承擔那這部分呢其實是並沒有太多的一個"},{"start":6969.711,"end":6984.409,"text":"這保險公司沒有太多表態的一個機會那而且依照現在的一個草案接入人這邊是沒有這個資格的一個限制特別在居民這邊那這部分會不會有點太多那我想這部分是我們可以去考慮的然後呢在這個"},{"start":6985.791,"end":7001.699,"text":"有一個重要概念特別是在日本法上他認為說這個介入權的一個本質是想要去延續保險效率可是你要延續保險效率是不是一定要以變更當事人當成手段呢兩個是可以綁在一起有的國家這樣這當然是非常好"},{"start":7002.119,"end":7022.575,"text":"可是在日本來說他沒有把兩個一定要綁在一起他覺得變更當事人是變更當事人延續效率是延續效率所以這樣是一個比較和緩跟尊重當事人意思的方法那至於說你真的想要去變更當事人那當事人他自己會達成一個協議他真的想要去轉手的話其實或許不需要法律直接把他綁定在一起"},{"start":7023.455,"end":7046.736,"text":"接下來我們會有一點點擔心的是說如果這個介入人的範圍比較廣未必一定要以保險利益為範圍可是如果說今天這個介入人可能是跟這個保險標的或是跟這個被保險人的關係不大的一個人的話會不會有這種太廣的一個問題這個是我們需要去慎思的不好意思主席我再最後30秒我有一個建議就是當然是基於這樣的我們可能有一些建議有一些"},{"start":7048.298,"end":7062.59,"text":"但是如果說我們覺得還是要增修介入權的話是不是可以採取比較和緩的方式那我這邊簡單提三點第一個像日本法它的一個行政權的效果是讓債權的解約不勝效力沒有"},{"start":7062.99,"end":7078.145,"text":"是不是先不要直接變成藥保人的法定變更這樣對現行的架構實務衝擊比較大第二個 借用權的範圍是不是可以做一定程度的限制其實我們在實務上受益人跟被保險人其實大部分都是有一定的關係"},{"start":7079.646,"end":7100.112,"text":"應該就可以捕捉大概七八成以上的狀況那我想主管這邊應該可以調查到相關數據那不管是用一定薪酬或是大家去商議一個範圍讓一些比較奇怪的比如說討債公司可不可以當受益人或等等之類的把一些極端的情形是不是可以避免掉這是第二個建議第三個建議其實很多先進有講到說這個"},{"start":7101.132,"end":7116.787,"text":"到底要不要保險要不要核保權同意權會不會濫用的一個問題那我個人會覺得說這部分其實或許還是可以保留一下可以讓他比較符合這個契約的一個實際那行政權可不可以附條件我們去看一些研究以後發現王哲健老師跟過去的食物健檢其實是也"},{"start":7117.307,"end":7145.013,"text":"同意說其實行政權還是可以付條件的只要這個條件是細於當事人的意思就好所以說我個人想了一個比較折衷的方案比如說我們可以說五天內如果保險公司沒有違反對的意思表示的話那就可以違一樣發生這樣的一個效力那這樣或許除了行政權的效果以外也可以兼顧到保險公司的一個核保實務上的核保權好 那以上謝謝謝謝陳教授接著我們請李坤臣委員那個花妍"},{"start":7153.596,"end":7174.293,"text":"謝謝主席那今天是我們這個公聽會還有這個金管會的這個官員還有這個與會的這個學者專家那今天的這個公聽會呢那主要是在這個討論這個保單抵債那保險法怎麼修那這個我剛有聽了一下這個各個學者專家的一些寶貴的意見"},{"start":7175.214,"end":7201.427,"text":"那其實這一次修法的背景主要就是說在這個111年的12月9號最高法院的民事大法庭它有一個裁定就是說這個執行法院於必要的時候的合法執行命令終止債務人為邀保人之人受保險契約命第三人保險公司償付解約金那因為有了這個裁定之後呢就造成說這個民事法庭大家都非常的忙碌"},{"start":7203.208,"end":7223.703,"text":"我們的金管會其實也發現到了會有一些問題出來第一個就是說造成債務人還有他的親屬失掉了維持生活經濟安定或身體健康所需要的保險保障然後損及國人保險保障的權益然後也對執行機關造成衝擊衍生龐大的社會成本"},{"start":7227.145,"end":7241.852,"text":"那這個修法其實金管會是現在才拿到立法院來那其實在去年跟今年有非常多的立法委員都相當的關心那包含本席也有提出這個相關的修法"},{"start":7242.512,"end":7260.94,"text":"那其實這個相關的修法大概跟這一次金管會的修法的重點其實也差不多第一個就是說強制執行的標的它的額度到底是要多少違憲第二個就是引入介入權的一個制度第三就是"},{"start":7261.94,"end":7284.567,"text":"健康險及傷害險不得作為扣押或是強制執行標的那剛剛講的這三個修正的重點第三點我覺得聽起來是比較有共識就是健康險傷害險不得作為扣押或是強制執行的標的但是對於前面兩點就是說那到底執行的標的額度要多少那現在金管會它所提出來這個保險法修法是說"},{"start":7285.967,"end":7300.072,"text":"這個解約金沒有超過最近一年公告當地區最低生活費的1.2倍的三個月不得作為扣押或強制執行的標的我看這個包含很多的立委對這個都有意見我自己也有意見"},{"start":7302.073,"end":7324.512,"text":"引入介入權的制度我也聽到有一些比較不同的討論那金管會這邊是保單遭到扣押具有保險利益的受益人或一定範圍內的親屬配偶子女父母兄弟姊妹可在取得邀保人及被保險人的書面同意之後並更為新的邀保人那這個當然大家可以討論那我先討論就是說"},{"start":7326.453,"end":7350.665,"text":"這個額度的問題那其實我也跟這個金管會問過就是說你這個最低生活費1.2倍的三個月比如說在台北市就是7萬3那我自己在新北那就是6萬那其他這一個6多之外的呢那就更低了大概就5萬多那這個其實對於我們當初的修法期待其實有點落差"},{"start":7351.385,"end":7367.503,"text":"那這個算是按照這個強制執行法的一個規定但是比如說像我在新北那明明跟台北是一個共同的生活圈那只是這個一橋之隔發現說那一個台北市是七萬塊七萬三新北就是六萬就少了一萬三"},{"start":7368.985,"end":7393.964,"text":"那當然有解釋說這個公告的地區這地區你可以到時候你可以跟法官說明這個可能是你這個戶籍地或是說你生活你現在住的地方在哪裡或是說你工作地點在哪裡那可能會有這個不同的計算的方式但是我認為說這個法律下去規定還是要明確不是到時候我們再去法官的"},{"start":7394.324,"end":7410.075,"text":"面前講說我戶籍是在雲林但是我工作地點是在台北市我住是住在新北市這樣子是有點複雜而且就是額度也太低了我也認同說我們有一些專家學者的意見就是說要提高了這個額度"},{"start":7412.196,"end":7440.491,"text":"那這個額度不是說你的最低的生活費用而已最低的生活費用而已那有些學者認為說是不是要把這個商帳的費用或是說一些失能照顧對於家庭的負擔這部分呢也把它納進去那所以可以參考這個小額中老保險的額度這個來做參考那額度就會拉高那第二個就是說是不是也納入這個因受撫養人還有這一個人數那把它加進去之後"},{"start":7440.931,"end":7459.838,"text":"再計算他的生活費用那也會比我們現在金管會所提出來的這個就是一張保單就是最高就是7萬3的這個額度那我認為這部分我聽下來是大家對於這個最低的額度比較有不同的意見然後都普遍就希望說這個額度能夠再拉高"},{"start":7460.638,"end":7487.694,"text":"第二個就是說介入權的制度介入權的制度其實在本席或是其他的委員大概都有納進去介入權制度我認為這方面應該雖然有比較不同的意見但是我認為基本上大部分都是同意引入介入權的制度包含被保險人、要保人或被保險人的配偶、父母、子女或是兄弟姊妹等等"},{"start":7488.274,"end":7511.62,"text":"那第三個我覺得這個是基本上我還蠻支持的就是說我們這個有一些職業的球員比如說像這個參加這個十二強的棒球賽或是這次經典賽這個賽然後你在短時間你去參加比賽那因為他們都是職業球員那職業球員基本上這個也是屬於這個職棒的這個球團那所以說去參加這個短時間的比賽有可能會受傷"},{"start":7518.021,"end":7544.161,"text":"但是呢因為它是短時間所以國內有一些保險公司可能不願意去去做承保那所以你們在這一個修正的第167條是第一項這個增訂透過保險經紀人可以向國外之保險業投保的這個的一個規定我覺得這個是蠻符合現在的一個需求因為接下來就是不管是這個值半或是說我們其他的這些職業賽事那有可能在這個"},{"start":7545.522,"end":7568.58,"text":"短時間裡面要去參與比賽但是也會有風險但是因為在台灣你要找到合適的保險公司我本來想說在台灣我們六支職棒球隊裡面有兩支球隊是跟銀行有關他們也都跟保險業都有關係但是好像他們承保意願也不一定高所以至少透過這一條的修訂有機會跟國外的保險業投保我覺得對於"},{"start":7574.705,"end":7602.03,"text":"球員或是對球團來講基本上都會有更多的保障那所以以上做一些說明那最主要我是希望說這個保險法修正案能夠能夠在這個會期能夠儘速通過如果這個已經被行政院列為這個是優先的法案希望說在公聽會之後再拜託召委我們這個再排時間再來做審查好 謝謝"},{"start":7603.672,"end":7609.699,"text":"好 謝謝昆城委員 非常寶貴的一個意見那接著我們請趙學斌律師趙律師是晨映法律事務所 謝謝 歡迎"},{"start":7632.403,"end":7658.888,"text":"各位委員還有各位與會先進大家好我是趙學斌那我在進來就是今天的這個主題之前我先跟大家報告一些可能相關的這個人數我們的這個犯罪犯罪的這些被害人我剛剛查了一下112年交通事故的這個死亡人數是3000人受傷的人數是52萬人詐欺的人數是6萬人兒少性侵害被害人"},{"start":7659.548,"end":7686.502,"text":"是8500人這些正是我們接下來要討論的可能這個債權人的角色那今天主要是想要針對這幾個提綱我們就逐一來去探討首先第一個提綱保單價值當然就是一個邀保人的這個責任層財產我們從保險法我們從民法都可以觀察更重要的是其實從稅法的角度我們國際接軌在實施CRS之後我們跟各個國家去交換金融資訊的這個"},{"start":7689.284,"end":7708.858,"text":"帳戶資訊當然也包含保單價值那如果說我們召喚這些稅務資訊都把保單價值視為這個腰板人的這個財產怎麼可能在現在討論強制執行的時候會把它脫離認為說不是責任財產所以第一個提綱是毫無疑問的那第二個提綱主要是討論說到底誰失去保障"},{"start":7709.258,"end":7733.148,"text":"失去保障的部分因為今天真正失去保障現在所討論的是人受保險他的保險事故叫做死亡保險事故誰死亡了被保險人被保險人死亡之後他並不是並不是人受保險契約死亡保險金給付的這個請求權利人所以他其實沒有失去保障真正失去保障的可能是腰保人他因此依照保險法119條的規定"},{"start":7735.349,"end":7758.828,"text":"當今天終止保險契約之後保險人償付解約金的這個數額是不低於四分之三也因此邀保人在此時此刻將會直接瞬間失去了將近四分之一的這個保單價值同時受益人跟被保險人的繼承人可能就會失去剛剛講的這個保險金給付請求保險給付的請求這是一個什麼樣的權利啊這僅僅是一個期待而已"},{"start":7758.988,"end":7781.876,"text":"它並不是一個實際上發生的一個權利在這個過程中藥保人可能隨時變更這個受益人這個受益人的角色並不是這麼穩固如果他自己早於被保險人死亡他當然也沒有機會領到這個保險金所以所以這僅僅是一個期待不是一個權利至於剛剛講的藥保人他所喪失的這個保單價值的部分在契約終止之前"},{"start":7782.697,"end":7797.559,"text":"從來就沒有去無從使用當然也不會是他維持生活所必須至於第三個提綱就是討論說這個解約金跟解約金剩低的部分那我們就可能大家就是自行參閱這個書面資料我們主要我的"},{"start":7798.44,"end":7812.279,"text":"觀察會認為說這個節約金的部分或許當然權衡這個健康保險跟傷害保險涉及到這種重症醫療的一個保障或許我們確實是可以立法豁免沒錯那這個數額可能還是維繫這整個法律體系"},{"start":7815.203,"end":7831.869,"text":"中體就是大家都可以一體適用的這種債務人同居親屬的這個生存保障那第四個提綱就是今天可能會是最為重要的一個問題就是這條界線到底要怎麼畫我們想要試著建構一個非黑即白的世界保護所有的人嗎"},{"start":7832.409,"end":7862.092,"text":"可是這條紅線呢怎麼畫那我認為說這條紅線正是強制執行法所告訴我們的債務人跟他的共同親屬生活所必須我們其實這個國家仰賴各國委員還有所有行政部門大家都很努力我們是很棒的國家我們有全民健康保險勞工保險條例建構了一個社會保險制度同時我們社會救助法也有一定的這種社會救助的功能更重要的是如果我們現在認為債務人他需要再多一點保障"},{"start":7862.392,"end":7880.539,"text":"那是不是我們頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳我們可以尋求消費者債務清理條例進一步去申請循著這個更生清算的這個程序進一步去調整他們債權債務之間的這個權利物關係而不是直接就來去操作操作這條紅線這條豁免與否的這個界線"},{"start":7884.301,"end":7902.12,"text":"那至於這個豁免他所斟酌的這個財產一直以來我們所關注的就是這整體的一個財產而不是這麼局限單筆個別的一筆的一個保單我們卻關注整體的財產他的薪資他的勞工保險老年年金等等"},{"start":7902.66,"end":7926.667,"text":"這是這樣的一個資訊那至於可能行政院這個草案有提到說可能社會成本等等的一個疑慮因此才採行這個單筆計算可是其實我們財政部也有相關的這個繼承人可以去查詢這個金融遺產等等或許可以去思考做這種跨部會的一個資訊的一個整合也許是可以協助法院的調查成本的一個降低至於"},{"start":7927.587,"end":7948.548,"text":"這個部分我們提綱四進一步去討論的是說小兒中老保險那小兒中老保險我們必須要先確立一件事情是當我們現在要決定說這個責任財產的界線它應該是以法律來去做一個劃分而不是直接去透過其他的一個規定怎麼說呢小兒中老保險它是基於什麼"},{"start":7949.028,"end":7967.235,"text":"小中老保險的一個商品相關規範它既不是法律也不是法律所授權的一個法規命令僅僅是行政程序法165條的一個行政指導它的這個規範目的是什麼基於現在老年化高齡化少子化等等鼓勵業者推行這樣子的一個保險"},{"start":7968.496,"end":7988.368,"text":"它實際上的目的跟我們今天所討論的主軸基本的生存保障風馬牛蛾不相干如果我們今天直接就不去探究具體的一個數額單以一個保險的一個名稱直接就說小額中老保險所有的金錢債權我們都直接豁免強制執行那無疑是"},{"start":7989.028,"end":8005.116,"text":"直接可以透過一個行政指導來去凌駕立法跟司法至上進而決定這條責任財產的一個紅線那我認為這已經違反了一個權利分立同時這個具體的一個數額保險金給付保險金高達90萬高於"},{"start":8007.117,"end":8029.611,"text":"國人平均的人壽保險88萬也高於我們平均的年薪69萬同時我們進一步去觀察可以發現說這個其實他的這個解約金的這個部分這個小額的部分他具體的這個數額大家可以看這個在自行參酌這個書面資料我們可以發現說一個55歲的女性她在"},{"start":8030.071,"end":8043.862,"text":"投保了來到20年的時候他的保安價值準備金可能將近二三十萬所以絕對是遠高於剛剛所提到的台北市的這個三個月的這個七萬塊的部分那至於提綱五的部分我們是討論說關於這一個"},{"start":8047.125,"end":8064.865,"text":"介入權的部分那介入權這部分我們當然是支持因為這是一個三贏的一個制度對保險人這邊這張保單繼續存在對邀保人這邊他的債務因此被清償對於這一個保險契約的相關利害關係人呢他有機會進一步繼續"},{"start":8065.746,"end":8084.204,"text":"仰賴這張保險契約提供剛剛我們所提到的想要試著回去維繫這個人壽保險的一些相關的保障只是我們可能要注意一下這個部分可能是不需要經過保險人的同意那理由可能就是如我們的這個書面資料所在因為這是一個法定的一個要保險變更"},{"start":8084.784,"end":8110.741,"text":"當然是不需要經過契約當事人相對人的一個同意這是像是我們民法1148繼承人壽保險契約這是很當然繼承就直接共同共有根本不需要保險人同意而這個保險人他在這個強制執行程序當中他作為這個第三人依法已經有相關的這個程序那最後我想要跟大家報告的是我們可以去試著去思考現在這個到底是誰在跟誰比啊"},{"start":8111.081,"end":8118.411,"text":"現在我們一直在討論說立法豁免其實我們正在思考一件事情是不好意思主席再給我30秒我們正在思考是我們決定要給這個債務人一個糖果吃我們給他豁免我們給他糖吃這個糖是誰給的這個糖不是這部法律給的這個糖"},{"start":8128.664,"end":8146.346,"text":"是左邊這些債權人給的債權人他本來可以拿到十足確切的這些債權結果現在要跟他說抱歉你必須犧牲你必須退讓你的這個錢必須給這個債務人那我作為一個司法實務工作者我看著"},{"start":8147.707,"end":8169.582,"text":"債務人也看過債權人法庭上法庭外的故事我第一次流淚我是在長庚的醫院我看著我的當事人他是一個債權人他是一個20歲的一個職務人他的整個家庭為什麼不趕快來發聲為什麼委員聽到很多債務人的意見因為這些債權人他們光是填飽光是盡可能"},{"start":8170.542,"end":8195.354,"text":"讓自己的損害降低他們在這個損害掙扎的過程中都很掙扎了他們根本沒有辦法再為自己發聲這可能才是為什麼我們好像比較聽到債務人的這個想要盡可能來去豁免那這個部分我再懇請各位委員左殘謝謝大家 謝謝好 謝謝趙律師接著我們請眾嘉賓委員花妍"},{"start":8203.696,"end":8222.556,"text":"首先非常謝謝召委安排非常有意義的公聽會,為什麼?因為可能這個公聽會的始作俑者是我本人,但是我聆聽了各位學者專家的意見之後,我卻陷入了一種不知道該採取哪種見解才好的一個困境。為什麼?這就是公聽會的用意。"},{"start":8223.157,"end":8240.346,"text":"公立會讓各方各面的見解各方各面的利益都能夠呈現但是最終呢我跟趙偉一樣我們在未來的財政委員會要去決定法律要往哪個方向走這就是未來的難題在我們這裡那索性呢今天這個難題的問題啊在本委員會"},{"start":8245.762,"end":8261.513,"text":"因為保險法的修改是在財政委員會但是今天這個保單解約的 俗稱保單解約的問題卻是由司法法制委員會收到司法體系的呼喊我們開始去進行"},{"start":8262.393,"end":8289.409,"text":"也剛好本席在去年兩個會席都在司法法治委員會剛好就是大法庭的裁定開始產生了司法部門的壓力的時候我們才發現這個問題來自於幾個方面那我想剛剛延續趙律師我剛剛聽了包括幾位學者都很有道理就是我們要去衡量的這個法治上的設計我們要衡量誰的利益比較大"},{"start":8290.413,"end":8312.915,"text":"是性侵的被害人,車禍的受害人,還是融資公司收到的一些不良債權,他要求去清償。回到本質的問題,剛剛幾位教授都講了,保險到底是避嫌人工具,還是理財的工具?我想連保險公司,連買的保單的人,都意見不一樣。"},{"start":8313.576,"end":8339.786,"text":"因為有太多種不同類型的保單到底它是理財的成分多還是保障的成分多我想這就是因為今天的保險局今天金管會困難的地方我們有辦法去確定說這個是一個保障型的保險所以不應該作為一個金錢債務的債權的一個抵債的對象可以這樣子嗎還是明明買來保險的人他本來就拿來理財的剛剛有一位說得很好一位研究人說這是一個財產傳承"},{"start":8341.877,"end":8365.559,"text":"所以到底我們的保單它是在風險發生的時候對於受害者那種風險的填補還是作為藥保人本身他的考量他的財產傳承或移轉或者年金保險他在不同的時代對於自己本身的財務承受能力跟風險承擔能力它做一個配置這個都有很多問題那我們來看一下那保險公司為什麼今天大把停會找上了我們保單呢"},{"start":8366.533,"end":8386.67,"text":"因為保險公司至於基於財務的操作他將遠期即要兌現的他提列了一些準備所以我們說保駕金或者解約金基本上是保險公司基於受理這張保單 售出這張保單他進行的財務規劃所呈現反射在這張保單上所謂的解約金或保駕金"},{"start":8387.546,"end":8411.585,"text":"這是來自於保險公司的財務調度的計算啊但是因為這個計算很明確啊所以就變成債權人可以去跟法院請求啊既然他有保假金有解約金那就是要保人的財產那大法庭接受沒接受啦剛剛的律師講很有道理啊這個財產權這個法律上定的很清楚嘛所以大法官做了裁定但是大法官有沒有想到後果是什麼"},{"start":8412.679,"end":8417.005,"text":"後果是這個大法庭的裁定先累死了司法機構多少案件量"},{"start":8418.274,"end":8443.487,"text":"我們看看銀行40萬件,資產管理公司18萬件其他人49萬件,總數77萬件請問台灣的法院系統有辦法去承擔嗎?剛剛相較於照理所說的那麼多的受害人,那麼多的案件其實還沒輪到這些案件啊單單是這些要求強制解約的就已經累死了我們法院的民事執行處累死了我們行政執行署的這個行政執行署了那為什麼會這樣子?"},{"start":8444.668,"end":8460.82,"text":"有人戲稱啊這個大法庭的裁定呢提供了一個討債公司減變的提款機他只要呢向保險公會 社會保險公會提出說我要查詢債務人有哪些保單就馬上吊齊了這保險公司的保單然後呢"},{"start":8461.772,"end":8488.78,"text":"再到法院裡面就成為俗稱討債公司他要的不多耶三萬五萬他也要耶 為什麼他承接了這些不良債權能要個十萬 他當然要啊結果我們本來大法庭所想像的程禄剛剛 包括葉教授所說的很多可憐的債權人他看到 眼睜睜看到這可惡的債務人啊透過這個理財工具去說是避險 其實是什麼 是避債"},{"start":8490.362,"end":8512.665,"text":"結果為了這些人我們讓他成為一個強制執行的標的後造成的結果試問有多少案件要求強制解約的是這一種拿很多張保單來避債的所以我們最後還是要根據案件的量來思考我現在很快的給大家看一下保險的內容跟趙委員往下"},{"start":8514.284,"end":8540.019,"text":"就大家討論到比例原則再往下看有的是醫療型的大家都討論了再往下看有的人是要把人物理重新投保我現在很多來找我們立法委的民眾都這樣再往下看受益人要請徐師就保險金的權利所以就有老師說我們來弄個一個介入權所以我覺得根本最後面的還是要問的是我們解決求助我們的民眾所以我特別也把我們的消費者"},{"start":8542.588,"end":8546,"text":"平易中心也找來我過去你往前跳我們"},{"start":8547.014,"end":8573.821,"text":"我們經歷了這麼多這麼多過去我本人在不同的委員會我們都透過了這些方式去尋求解決那麼我們看到了在2024年5月就是去年的時候這個保險法排入了議程往下看所以我們曾經過去有主張過金管要怎麼樣金融消費平均中心要如何金管要如何如何這些主張回到最後我們就是要就教於我們學者專家收集這麼多意見"},{"start":8574.981,"end":8598.004,"text":"是不是我剛剛聽到幾個可能的方向就是因為我本身不是法律科班但是我知道法律人最難說一個舉證之所在敗訴之所在舉證責任反轉我剛剛有聽到幾個這樣的意見也就是說債權人如果認為債務人有明顯的透過保險契約來逃避他應付的責任的時候是否應該由債權人來舉證他跟法院請求"},{"start":8599.127,"end":8619.736,"text":"因為只要是金管會 只要是保險局明訂什麼中老型保單啊 可以豁免馬上我們就有個廣告 必載保單因為保單的設計多重啊 各五壓花八門啊絕對趕不上我們法律的設計絕對趕不上我們保單產品的設計啊每次一個新的保單發出來"},{"start":8621.161,"end":8649.582,"text":"只要說法律上到底認不認定它是在我們這個請求權的豁免範圍之外只要是有人認為是是保險公司會宣傳說我們來發行一個必在保單大家都要買啊因為國人把保單它當作是保障工具還是那個理財工具太分歧了所以呢 適度上我們應該慢慢地收斂怎麼收斂怎麼樣抓住我們主要的這樣的標的我們是要減量因為司法是各量橫著"},{"start":8650.996,"end":8674.148,"text":"行政才是通案解決我們用一個通案解決但是不能去妨礙到司法個案橫著的這個原理所以我是覺得在這個通案這個解決的過程當中我們把一些原則定出來但是我們保留給個案衡量由權力人去跟法院主張現在剛好相反因為大法已經裁定了所以呢"},{"start":8675.718,"end":8704.42,"text":"這樣的一個個案衡量它變成是通案解決為什麼法院那麼多案每個案都要請求法官來裁定嗎裁法官才沒有那個生命呢 為什麼因為大法庭的裁定太簡單了嘛但是他寫的很簡單啊 他寫什麼他寫說必要時啊執行法院必要時得合法執行命令終止債務人為要保人資人壽保險契約啊必要時這三個字它就是個案衡量的精神嘛但是現在在民事執行上是什麼"},{"start":8705.934,"end":8734.125,"text":"這個必要時都已經因為債權人他也覺得他不要跟你爭議啊就很簡單嘛 你解約金 保障金多少我要了就走嘛今天是真的是說有很多的債權人被一個可惡的債務人用保單倒債 逃債之後他們來跟法律請求訴訟嗎其實不是啊實務上的狀況我們看到前面的案件量來自於保險銀行的我們看到最前面齁有多少件銀行的是40萬件欸"},{"start":8736.806,"end":8754.977,"text":"然後呢,資產管理公司的結緣,18萬件耶什麼叫資產管理公司?就討債公司嘛他拿了一些不良債權之後,他只要查一查對不對,跟授權公司繳了一筆費用他就可以調到這些債務人的所有的資料了嘛我每張保單拿回個5萬要不要?"},{"start":8755.936,"end":8772.967,"text":"可是對眾多的被保險人、眾多的受益人產生這麼大的衝擊這就是我們今天立法院要解決的問題啊所以我今天也很難有個結論啊我聽了這麼多修者專家都講得很有道理我覺得回過頭來思考我們要解決的是量的問題"},{"start":8774.127,"end":8795.398,"text":"未來的法條的設計怎麼樣讓這個量能夠回復它應有的量所以包括舉證責任反轉包括債權人的請求應該是回復到個案橫著的方式而不是用通案解讀的方式讓債權人一些不同的債權人輕易的都可以用這個保單解讀的方式來要他的金錢利益"},{"start":8796.26,"end":8807.406,"text":"那同樣的保險局今晚會這邊要思考保險公司的經營他的保單的生計層出不窮我們有辦法去避免保險公司推出了逃債保單嗎很難啊所以我們怎麼樣去訂定原則將各位學者專家的意見我們整個條文當中我覺得我的目的就是一個減量"},{"start":8822.796,"end":8849.129,"text":"怎麼樣讓規劃處理流程出境案件減量我想這也是司法院也熱見的也是我們授權工會所熱見的也相信呢是我們修改這個法我們不要去抵觸一些基本的法理原則後我們所要達到的實際目的以上 謝謝好 謝謝嘉賓對保險法的一個投入跟努力那接著我們請人壽保險商業工會副秘書長那個經益會副秘書長"},{"start":8860.397,"end":8883.977,"text":"委員 各位長官 各位先進那受請工會代表發言那我想今天這個會議其實是一個各方利益的一個權衡剛剛很多前面的學者專家都講到到底是要保障債權人的利益還是債務人的利益那我想這個部分其實根源就在於最高法院的民事大法庭裁定當然當時在做成這樣的裁定的時候 榮獲有它的一個背景"},{"start":8884.557,"end":8899.273,"text":"那但是在各地執行法院在執行的時候或者是債權人在看待這一個民事大法庭裁定的時候他又是從另外一個角度來看那因為剛剛也有提到人身保險人壽保險這是兩個不一樣的概念"},{"start":8900.013,"end":8920.866,"text":"事實上來講最高法院的大法庭裁定很明確人受保險但是在各地的執行法院在認定的時候其實差了一個字就天壤之別所以在這個部分來講等於是說剛剛其實總委員這邊也提到了在司法體系案件爆料也提到我們受險工會我們工會也爆料"},{"start":8921.567,"end":8930.238,"text":"我們大概也是70幾萬件從112年4月開始爆料一直到現在像今年前兩個月我們查的人次就超過10萬件"},{"start":8931.827,"end":8952.434,"text":"那這個部分來講當然我也很認同剛剛其實各界的學者專家代表都有提到有可憐的債務人也有可憐的債權人那到底是我們要保障債權人的利益還是要保障債務人的利益那因為在保險來講當然我們知道人身保險它的目的是一個我們一直對外聲稱的是所謂社會安全網"},{"start":8953.394,"end":8974.524,"text":"社會安全網是補足政府的社會福利或社會救助的不足希望民眾能夠透過自力的方式去架構自己的安全保障但是我們也不能否認在我們保險的市場發展了這麼久以來在保障的這樣子的社產慢慢已經發展出來一些儲蓄甚或是投資"},{"start":8976.425,"end":8995.562,"text":"在一些民眾在投保這個保險的時候他有各式各樣的目的那在各式各樣的目的我們不能否認說有一些目的他確實是要把他的財產透過保險去做一些規劃甚或是所謂的傳承那可是在發生所謂的債權債務關係的時候到底這些可不可以執行"},{"start":8996.623,"end":9018.315,"text":"那這個部分我想我們其實從這個金管會提的這個版本我想各位應該這個是可以討論的但是從我們業界的立場看基本上應該某種程度是已經橫平了雙方的立場因為包含說傷害險健康險是排除強制執行其實我們也接到很多類似的這樣子的一個反應"},{"start":9019.235,"end":9035.421,"text":"其實特別是健康險有很多的這種債務人那他的保單可能他的保障對象因為被保險多半是這個應該就是本人被保險人本人他可能已經是在保險事故發生中"},{"start":9036.221,"end":9051.521,"text":"那保險事故發生中的話他可能就需要這一張健康險的保單去延續他的一個治療的這個動作如果這張保單因為被強制執行而中止我記得我曾經在另外一個場合提到這個可能就要了他的命"},{"start":9052.142,"end":9063.815,"text":"因為他沒有錢繼續治療下去特別是一些重大疾病所以在這樣子的情況下如何去衡平債權人跟債務人之間的利益其實像今天的這個公聽會其實那條線就像剛剛趙律師講到你要劃在哪裡"},{"start":9068.64,"end":9092.716,"text":"話在哪裡其實從業者的角度來講的話我們當然是希望說能夠讓保險能夠彰顯它的一個社會價值但是在這個社會價值下我們也不希望保險成為這種所謂的不良的債權者隱匿財產的工具所以在今晚會提的案子裡頭我們是覺得它相當程度已經兼顧了這方面的一個需求"},{"start":9093.536,"end":9109.534,"text":"那至於說剛剛其實周委員也感謝他仗義執言有提到一個所謂的源頭減量的問題因為我們從112年4月開始這個查詢爆量因為現在實務上在查詢這個投保紀錄第一關一定到壽險工會"},{"start":9110.795,"end":9137.426,"text":"因為這個債權人過往在這個對於債務人的保單資料他是沒有辦法掌握的所以現在最高法院民事大法庭裁定一出來以後這些債權人就湧向受險工會先查債務人在哪些公司有投保查到了以後再根據查詢的結果申請執行法院向投保的公司發扣押命令發執行命令等等而我們也側面了解在"},{"start":9138.146,"end":9162.42,"text":"很多的這樣子的案子不是說我剛剛講的發了執行命令保險公司扣住保單然後算出節約金作價返還案子就結束了有的案子可能還要再來來回回因為包含中間可能有依照這個保險法依照強制執行法的規定聲明異議或者是說要求著留生活必要費用執行法院都要去做一些橫著"},{"start":9163.46,"end":9182.501,"text":"這些往返的一些相關的行政作業有的案子可能要到一年才能夠結案那其實就如同鍾委員剛剛講的像執行法院我們的了解在之前台北地院我們目前21家受險公司有19家的管轄法院在台北地院"},{"start":9183.301,"end":9197.96,"text":"所以台北地院的案子有人開玩笑不要發生地震地震的話那個卷宗塌下來會壓到人的所以在這樣子的情況下我們也非常贊同剛剛鍾委員提到的源頭減量其實我們工會是有一"},{"start":9198.661,"end":9217.048,"text":"靠目前有的機制就是方便客戶可以申請理賠的一個所謂理賠系統其實我們也是跟醫院去做借接透過我們建立一個通道由保險公司跟醫院之間去傳輸經被保險就病患同意的一些相關的醫療資訊"},{"start":9218.729,"end":9233.477,"text":"那其實可以沿用這個精神看能不能夠在工會去架建一個平台由法院系統跟保險公司之間法院對於債權人所申請的可以執行的這個比如說保單"},{"start":9234.878,"end":9260.208,"text":"通知了保險公司以後保險公司把這個相關的結合金金額回歸給這個法院這邊那法院再根據這個可執行的範圍去等於說予以執行那這樣子的話可能某種程度可以去減輕這個所謂的一個減量的一個過程那另外的話我可能剛剛有一點我可能需要補充因為剛剛一直有先進有提到所謂的拆單去規避債權的問題其實這個所謂拆單"},{"start":9264.09,"end":9282.941,"text":"他就是把一張保單變成一張以上甚至一張變十張但是這個部分不要忘記了這個變一張變成十張這個另外九張他可能要再重新投保重新投保保險公司就會重新核保重新核保的話會涉及到被保險人的體礦"},{"start":9283.962,"end":9308.577,"text":"可能也會涉及到他的投保動機甚至我們主管機關規範的所謂的KYC認識你的客戶甚至是說這樣子拆單的過程中有沒有一些違反所謂的洗錢防止洗錢打支支孔的一些相關的一些動機在裡面也就是說他這樣的拆單是出於一個不良的動機保險公司都必須在這樣子的一個過程中善盡他的一個審查責任"},{"start":9309.818,"end":9323.494,"text":"所以這種可能在實務上多半如果是它原保單的保額增減可能是比較容易但是要拆單的話可能沒有那麼容易所以在這樣子的一個情況下我想可能還是回歸到今天的一個所謂"},{"start":9325.356,"end":9342.444,"text":"修法的一個過程基本上我們是認同主管機關所提出的一個修法的草案也包括介入權的部分那我記得剛剛也有學者提出另外一個平行的概念就是保單重置那這些來講的話其實都可以去兼顧讓"},{"start":9343.984,"end":9371.319,"text":"這個所謂原保單的被保險人或者受益人有機會能夠保留他自己的這個保單不會因為強制執行而讓他的權益受到侵害那以上是我的大概說明 謝謝好 謝謝護秘處長那接著我們是不是邀請就是我們現在登記的那個那個花園的專家學者跟受險工會的業者都已經那個花園完畢了那"},{"start":9372.599,"end":9387.293,"text":"繼續我們要請行政機關回應相關的一個意見那我們依序我們先請那個金管會然後再來是司法院那後面是法務部行政執行署來回應那金管會副主委請"},{"start":9396.32,"end":9413.966,"text":"是首先非常感謝大院召開這個債務人設保險契約強制執行保險法該怎麼修的公聽會呢來來這個邀請我們監管會那我們也乘這個大院之命來出席所以是說呢在這個地方其實剛剛整"},{"start":9415.507,"end":9437.272,"text":"整個的不管是工會我們的業界以及學者專家呢其實意見給我們的非常非常多的也非常非常好的一個思考的方向其實呢在這個問題點一開始的時候其實是回應法院對保單可否執行起義判決的一個現象因為其實本來就有不同的一個見解"},{"start":9438.112,"end":9452.957,"text":"所以它有所謂司法上的回應,行政上的回應,跟立法上的回應而司法上的回應一開始就是大法庭裁定897號的裁定其實它在司法上面確立的統一見解就是保單可以強制執行"},{"start":9458.439,"end":9479.028,"text":"当然在这个地方也开始有许多的案件涌进了我们司法的体系所以是说其实整体听起来大家的方向都是一致的第一个就是说我们必须要来确认一下可强制的强制执行法律的一个范围"},{"start":9479.588,"end":9494.865,"text":"再第二点是介入权的一个引进其实我看起来听起来其实大家方向都是一致而呢其实在金管会这方面的其实在当时我们这些意见也都听到我们呢也对于我们也对于所谓的进六球"},{"start":9495.515,"end":9518.009,"text":"债权人债务人被保险人受益人以及刚提到司法机关的整体的一个平衡其实也就是说从个案的当时法院的个案的解决我们是希望达到一个所谓的体制性的一个解决从源头的管制以及后面的一个所谓的一个平衡点我们也参考了这个"},{"start":9518.829,"end":9546.925,"text":"我們在這個草案預告期間各方的意見並與學者司法院執行署公會開會呢其實這些我們都採納進去在行政院也在3月13號的時候通過草案也還請這個就是立法院貴院大院來審議其實我們所提出來的我們不敢說我們不敢說是100%的完美但是呢其實就像車子一樣就你買車子我們是提出一個標配"},{"start":9547.665,"end":9566.272,"text":"一个标配所以标准的在这个地方的是希望在透过了一个不管是社会参与以及立法院的一些审议有些选配的上面而选配在这个地方基本上因为各国的法治不易各国的其实在面对的一个状况以及我国对保险"},{"start":9566.912,"end":9591.088,"text":"的一個喜好度所以都會有不一樣的一個解決所以呢在這個地方在行政立法跟社會溝通的一個三方的一個協助呢其實呢我覺得我覺得在我們的標配再加上選配的部分呢一定能達成一個維繫安定社會經濟功能實現債權減少司法負擔的一個三方三贏的一個情形好謝謝各位"},{"start":9594.423,"end":9598.385,"text":"好 謝謝護主委那我們接著請那個司法院好 謝謝院長聽著"},{"start":9610.566,"end":9630.077,"text":"是主席、各位委員還有各位先進大家好本人榮幸代表司法院來就這個議題來發表一些本院的一些基本的想法那關於這個書面報告已經有轉成大院那這個昨天媒體也就揭露了"},{"start":9630.757,"end":9645.889,"text":"那首先這個有一些針對議題的部分或一些剛才聽取各位學者專家還有相關部門的高見有一些東西要稍微澄清一下首先第一個有關保單解約金是否作為責任財產我想"},{"start":9649.107,"end":9676.138,"text":"大法庭是統一間接這個爭議是好幾年前就陸續發生那陸續湧向了所有的法院的個案那它法院的個案當然有的人認為可以有的人認為不可以一直到最高法院所以最高法院大法庭才統一間接所以並不是大法庭創造了爭議而是在社會的具體現實湧入法院之後大法庭做了統一間接這個是要先澄清的"},{"start":9677.139,"end":9684.571,"text":"再來第二個在我國大法庭做了統一見解之後這個保單價值解約金作為責任財產這個在實務已經變成定案了"},{"start":9688.311,"end":9715.158,"text":"那學者專家當然大家還有不同想法可在我們司法實務界這個就是一個定案那這個定案當中就進入到第二個的一個層次當受險被終止的時候這個利益衡量債權人債務人要保人被保險人收益人要怎麼去處理的問題這邊要再去澄清一下從法院的角度強制執行的債權人債務人是個中立性的描述"},{"start":9716.311,"end":9738.533,"text":"也就是說他不管這個債權發生的原因為何這個債權原因有很多樣有的是契約有的是不當得利有的是侵權行為就是剛才有一些學子專家講到的可憐的被害人所以不是所有都是金融機構的借款債權雖然他可能佔大宗所以這是第二個要去釐清的"},{"start":9739.11,"end":9763.356,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下保險契約的三方關係跟執行法的債權人、債務人或執行法院其實它本來是不同的概念在執行法院端它就是個中立的那剛好當你這個保險結約金成為責任財產的時候它勢必就會成為強制執行的標的而產生了一個相關的爭議那再來就是說"},{"start":9765.1,"end":9791.214,"text":"有去提到說我們要去怎麼去優先保障那在執行法院的角度執行法本來就有債權人的債務人的衡量的問題當然強制執行法本身它的立法目的就是滿足債權所以它一定是要達成這個基本的立法目的但要注意債務人的生存權的生活必要所以有做一些例外這個是再來第二個要去跟各位報告那在立法政策上"},{"start":9792.353,"end":9819.174,"text":"其實包括勞工保險條例或是強行執行法122條他有一些是去除外的所以在立法政策上如果大家社會共識或大院的共識是在保險法要去做一些除外或豁免當然這個就是立法政策所以他要去思考是說到底保險的解約金在責任財產當中他到底有多特別"},{"start":9820.322,"end":9841.956,"text":"特別到說我們必須為他量身訂做一些做法一些豁免的標準他顯然有他的特殊性所以我們今天才會站在這裡但他是不是要特別到有一些跟基本法理因為例外就重演解釋那這個就有叫各位專家來聚焦討論那再來第三個有關"},{"start":9843.236,"end":9866.117,"text":"這個無節約金剩低或是沒有的健康保險傷害保險是否應該豁免強制執行我想我們就尊重金管會的草案這個我們也基本上認為說這個就把它排除或許比較簡單再來第四個豁免保單價值受強制執行這個豁免額度如何決定我想這個是本件本次會議重要的兩個焦點"},{"start":9867.918,"end":9894.318,"text":"這個豁免標準的衡量那我首先先說明一下這個是高度立法政策的問題因為我們司法院都有派代表參與金管會整個一個修法的過程在內部會議上我們司法院也提出了一些不同的想法但是我們也了解這個是個很難的問題所以金管會他參考了強制刑法的一些精神來規定但我又要再特別釐清一下"},{"start":9895.519,"end":9923.784,"text":"強制執行法只有在52條有關動產查封的時候有去做考量必要生活最高提到的三個月這個是一個一般財產動產的時候才去做的處理那當時我們為了要解決問題我們在授權契約的執行原則裡面參考了現有法制因為執行原則畢竟不是法律它是一個統一的規則所以它不能逾越我們強制執行法的規定所以參考這個精神把它定了一個三個月"},{"start":9925.213,"end":9939.95,"text":"但保險法為什麼要受這個限制就要去考慮有沒有那個特殊性要去突破一個立法政策的選擇要受到我們一般性通貪的責任財產的限制這個就是一個衡量的問題所以如果"},{"start":9941.124,"end":9964.45,"text":"大院和各位學者專家都覺得說其實在責任準備責任財產這個部分保險可以做更大的一個去豁免其實本院一定是高度尊重那金管會提出這個版本因為他就是參考本院的立場本院在強制執行法的規範下只能這麼做但保險法的修法其實應該不受限於此"},{"start":9965.41,"end":9989.405,"text":"所以我們只能予以尊重再來第五個部分關於介入權的部分剛才有一些學者專家提到有各種模式對於介入權有一些疑慮我要特別跟各位報告的是說介入權怎麼去規範這個都可以再討論但有一些學者專家提出來的意見"},{"start":9990.646,"end":10012.304,"text":"沒有辦法把那個藥保人更換的話藥保人的債權人其他債權人還會再來執行沒有辦法解決執行方面的問題也沒有辦法解決債務人的問題也沒有辦法解決保險公會保險公司的問題所以在介入權的一個設計上面除非你能把藥保人更換否則他的債權人其他債權人隨時都會再來"},{"start":10014.776,"end":10024.402,"text":"在這是一個大方向上所以我們對於行政院的通過的草案我們基本上是採取比較支持的態度那再來就是第六個有關這個"},{"start":10026.426,"end":10053.606,"text":"目前大院各委員有去提到的一些修正草案的部分我們簡單的報告一下有關這個第一個部分中加兵委員台灣民眾黨的草案有去提到說要把更生放進去那因為行政院的版本沒有更生那我們在檢視之後因為我們消災條例24條的規定他是在雖然食物發生可能性不高但規範上有此可能所以我們建議把這個更生放進去再來第二個"},{"start":10054.346,"end":10072.157,"text":"有關鍾家斌委員、台南民眾黨陳昌明委員、羅志強委員、李坤誠委員、賴立榮委員、羅廷偉、王思堅委員、徐富奎委員、王美惠委員等凝聚的介入權規範有規範到要求執行法院要去通知保險公司"},{"start":10073.618,"end":10096.754,"text":"那這個部分我們是認為說可能要再斟酌因為執行法院要付這個通知義務可能有點困難那另外就是執行法院其實也不知道這個行政權他是誰哪些人要來行使哪些人有這個資格還要增加再一次重新審查的過程所以目前行政院的草案直接就把這個"},{"start":10098.095,"end":10118.76,"text":"有要行使這個借入權的人直接去通知保險人我們是認為比較可採的立法方式再來第三個有關陳昌明委員、羅志強委員、李昆城委員、賴樂龍委員、羅廷輝委員、王世堅委員、許富奎委員、王美惠委員等提及的保險法修正查案也就是說有關小和中老保險的部分"},{"start":10119.88,"end":10141.529,"text":"這個部分也是一個本次的爭議重點那關於小兒中老保險這個當初本院在頒那個執行原則的時候因為參採經管會的意見所以我們把小兒中老保險就納入了執行原則裡面那現在因為好像經管會這個經管會目前這個草案事件沒有把小兒中老保險放進去"},{"start":10143.473,"end":10169.293,"text":"這個本院的立場主觀上還是希望能夠在於斟酌當然這個學者專家會有一些不同的想法我們都予以尊重只是本院執行原則放進去那現在監管會的保險法修正草案如果不放進去這個會將來會產生一些困擾跟爭議 以上好 謝謝林天長那接著法務部行政執行署"},{"start":10183.341,"end":10200.635,"text":"吳委員各位學術專家還有與會的代表大家好我是法務部行政執行署主任執行官那我們有提書面出來了所以就書面有的部分我在這裡就不再逐一的重複那緊就我們本署的業務特質跟各位"},{"start":10201.635,"end":10223.609,"text":"專家學者還有委員的報告其實我們行政執行組是很簡單它就是一個行政機關那行政機關呢它就是整個立場上考量到的當然就是行政機關的我們政府的一體性以及我們義務人他自己本身我們需要照顧到的生存權的問題所以我們在這邊執行上是沒有司法院這麼多"},{"start":10224.69,"end":10252.51,"text":"考量比較不會有複雜的債權人還有一些值得同情的債權人的問題我們都很簡單都是我們國家的行政機關所以我們考量上是相對的就簡單那我們行政執行法規定本來就比較少我們大部分都是准用強制執行法那強制執行法的主管機關是司法院那剛剛學者司法院關於強制執行法相關的細節他們有做過了說明以及他們的立場"},{"start":10253.331,"end":10282.777,"text":"那我們在保單執行呢確實在基層執行會有一些考量到底要不要去執行確實以前是會有這樣的一個問題那自從這個到法庭裁定之後我們就知道我們是得到支持了需要執行的時候我們都會執行那也就是因為在需要執行的時候才執行所以其實這個量我們的量來講跟司法院比其實是相對負擔沒有那麼大那很謝謝各位委員考量到我們的負擔我們非常的欣慰"},{"start":10283.337,"end":10303.612,"text":"那我們在個案執行上目前為止它是沒有過多的一些問題只是之前因為保險局這邊還有司法院這邊對了量大他們有一些原理原則所以保險局這裡的原則呢我們也就把它踩為我們行政經營署發給我們13分數在執行上的一個原則"},{"start":10304.412,"end":10329.451,"text":"那剛剛講到的這個小兒的保險這個小兒中老這些確實當時有考量到說他的草案有所以我們也列了進來所以剛剛司法院提到的這個問題呢其實也是我們現在會面臨到的問題那請就這小小的事情跟各位委員還有專家來做報告那沒有其他補充 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝惠玲執行官那主席在這裡做結論"},{"start":10331.889,"end":10351.818,"text":"我們依據立法院那個之前新司法第58條的規定委員會應該在公聽會終結後10天內依出席者所提供的政法意見提出公聽會的報告送交本院全體委員及出席者所以我們會把今天所有議會"},{"start":10353.479,"end":10365.934,"text":"來賓的最寶貴的花言的意見作為未來修法的一個參考便會籍陳冊送交本宴全體委員跟今天出席的提供建言的貴賓參與二 民進黨黨團推薦的"},{"start":10369.578,"end":10383.438,"text":"台大法學院汪信金教授還有國立台中科技大學保險金融管理學系曾耀峰副教授雖然沒有親臨會場但是有提供書面的報告我們會列入公聽會的報告"},{"start":10386.522,"end":10403.356,"text":"那三如果各位貴賓還有其他的書面意見及相關的資料也請盡速的提供給我們我們會併入本次的公聽會的報告那再一次感謝在現場的各位寫者及專家還有機關代表的一個出席謝謝大家散會"}]}},{"id":"16530","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16530","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea62ae2672450bbbb20cc1067dc387cc1f7a524d1b3d409a1ab033a6703662132f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「災害防救法第三條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具「災害防救法第四十八條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「災害防救法第二十二條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-19","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-19T08:31:46+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-19T11:08:00+08:00","duration":9374,"影片長度":"02:36:14","委員發言時間":"08:31:46 - 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內政部部長劉世芳暨相關人員原住民組委員會主任委員曾志勇暨相關人員勞動部政務次長李建宏暨相關人員行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處處長李花書交通部人事處專門委員馮淑珍主席 劉昭暨委員許庭報告事項 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定 確定 討論事項審查紀念日及節日實施條例草案暨二十案"},{"start":1788.722,"end":1814.694,"text":"討論事項合併詢答委員洪孟楷等22人質詢由內政部部長劉世芳勞動部政務次長李建宏原住民組委員會主任委員曾志勇交通部人事處專門委員馮淑珍行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處處長李花書答覆說明登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束委員翁曉琳所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報書面質詢及未及答覆部分請相關機關於一週內另以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":1818.415,"end":1827.743,"text":"決議以上個案均令定期繼續審查條文已宣讀宣讀完畢因為現在不足三我們等一下再確定意思入那我們繼續進行討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":1831.55,"end":1831.67,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":1856.584,"end":1871.423,"text":"好本日議程所列討論事項我們合併詢答現在介紹在場委員及列席官員然後我們丁薛忠委員然後馬事員次長我們消防署署長"},{"start":1874.346,"end":1897.752,"text":"我們農業部的副司長韓副司長我們環境部化學物質管理處的副署長陳淑玲我們河安委員會的主任秘書王崇德我們經濟部產業園區管理局的副局長曾促芬我們法務部參事廖江憲張志榮委員來了"},{"start":1906.433,"end":1924.284,"text":"那我們先確定議事錄我們上次會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏沒有好謝謝好議事錄確定了好來那我們現在請提案委員說明提案要旨我們請丁薛忠委員"},{"start":1934.554,"end":1938.719,"text":"感謝主席今天就災害方舊法第22條修正草案做提案說明"},{"start":1943.939,"end":1965.878,"text":"依据联通部所定义灾防教育是要事前充分准备提高大家的认识以减少灾害的损害但是发现到传统灾害防救的教育知识都是以过去地震与台风等单一灾害来规划因应"},{"start":1966.499,"end":1973.709,"text":"可是現在全球的天災都已複合型成為常態過去之事已經已有孤獨"},{"start":1975.888,"end":2002.182,"text":"以国外案例来看日本311地震带来各种海啸等后续灾害非常严重其他国家最多的森林野火其灾害的范围和形态不同过去造成灾损扩大难以控制再看现在台湾情形这几年最严重是传统台风都灌水的强雨"},{"start":2002.802,"end":2030.801,"text":"引发大型水患等各种损害显然本条例所定平时灾害防救教育已有平日及时增强之必要但却发现作为第一线防灾的地方政府经常在多样形态复合灾情下受限平日人力资源与专业知识不足造成灾害的救治"},{"start":2032.386,"end":2052.693,"text":"就之困難與損害故修訂法第22條建立中央主管機關應以平日強化人力資源與專業知識提供給各地政府強化災防及此更新以利更多災害防救資準會謝謝好好謝謝"},{"start":2061.462,"end":2065.708,"text":"好那我們現在請內政部馬政務次長試圓報告"},{"start":2080.271,"end":2091.4,"text":"主席還有各位委員女士先生大家早安首先感謝各位委員對內政部業務的關注與指導今天貴委員會召開會議審查"},{"start":2094.33,"end":2114.501,"text":"審議災害防救法 簡稱災防法的相關委員提案總共計四案本部應邀前來報告備詢對於委員關心本部業管議題表示敬佩與感謝災害防法自89年7月19日公布施行之後目前已經經歷了9次修正在111年6月15日公布了全條文66條的修正案"},{"start":2121.516,"end":2149.313,"text":"那僅就目前委員提案的內容將本部的意見依序說明如下一災防法第三條修正草案賴委員瑞榮等16人及謝委員依奉等17人提案建議修正中央災害防救業務主管機關名稱如農業部環境部及核能安全委員會部分本部認同建議可推動"},{"start":2151.916,"end":2174.668,"text":"2.災防法第19條修正草案部分賴委員瑞榮等16人提案建議增訂工業管線災害防救業務計畫送大院備查及工業管線之運作安全事項應以專法定之等部分由於考量災防法律定之22種災害"},{"start":2177.941,"end":2198.795,"text":"經行政院專案災害防救匯報審議之後已公布在網站上供政府機關及民眾查閱經濟部也將工業管線之運作安全維護管理監督以及災害防救等事項納入工業管線災害防救業務計畫並具執行"},{"start":2202.33,"end":2228.316,"text":"是否另定專法應釋設中央災害防救業務主管機關經濟部全責內政部尊重經濟部的意見3.災防法第22條修正草案丁委員、學中等16人提案建議增訂災害防救法第22條應在災害防救教育部分平時強化專業知識培養"},{"start":2230.663,"end":2252.58,"text":"本部感謝委員提案 竟表同意四 災防法第48條修正草案謝委員依奉等16人提案建議修正農業部名稱純屬機關名稱之修正本部建議可推動以上報告敬請各位委員女士先生予以指教 謝謝"},{"start":2254.602,"end":2278.158,"text":"好 謝謝其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報那我們現在要進行詢答委員詢答前 原列座以下幾點宣告本會委員發言時間5分鐘 必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員發言時間5分鐘 上午10點30分截止發言登記"},{"start":2279.139,"end":2294.424,"text":"今天因為要處理法案本次會議就不處理臨時提案請問各位有沒有意見沒有好謝謝就只剩你那我們現在先休息三分鐘好了好不好好"},{"start":2300.303,"end":2303.984,"text":"記者要照片,所以我可以幫你照一張都可以啊"},{"start":2324.876,"end":2334.68,"text":"謝謝不客氣啊,再給你再給我再給我謝謝不用不用不用好,OK,OK那我就選兩袋給你好,那選兩袋給我拿著"},{"start":2355.051,"end":2355.071,"text":"嗯"},{"start":2379.776,"end":2382.441,"text":"這裏有個大廈,有個大廈"},{"start":2387.972,"end":2397.519,"text":"好難喔 啊 這是新進的不好意思 不好意思 來來來不好意思 哇 我剛來不好意思"},{"start":2420.435,"end":2421.295,"text":"我好意思"},{"start":2446.937,"end":2467.227,"text":"謝謝"},{"start":2479.289,"end":2489.33,"text":"謝謝收看,下次見!"},{"start":2510.488,"end":2516.77,"text":"還沒開始開會好我們現在開始開會我們現在進行詢問請登記地位的蘇巧慧委員發言好謝謝主席不好意思那我們請馬次長好請馬次長"},{"start":2540.925,"end":2564.655,"text":"好 市長好那我們今天其實要處理的這個是災害防救法那我是認為啦其實法令在怎麼完備它其實還是有非常多的執行細節需要來討論那比如說我自己啊我們在這個新北市當中其實就有很多的地方它就是有設有這種在勘測災害的這種雷達像我們上次有去看的這個是五分山的雷達站"},{"start":2565.575,"end":2580.47,"text":"光是一個雷達站呢你需要考慮到的就是有氣象的部分嘛然後還有其他種種的資訊甚至是連去這個地方的交通等等都需要去討論那我想知道就是其實在法令之外您能不能夠借用這個這個備詢的時間喔告訴我們一下說"},{"start":2584.614,"end":2597.931,"text":"法令如何來整備跨部會的協助又或者是在法令之餘你們已經又做了什麼樣的精進作為讓我們可以更知道說其實現在政府對於災害防救已經到什麼樣的程度"},{"start":2598.8,"end":2617.552,"text":"好謝謝委員我想因為我們現在的災防法的架構是把災害類別分給部會那但是我們有很多的災害必須是由目的事業主管機關來合作比如說剛剛委員提到像氣象站氣象站是由交通部來負責"},{"start":2618.893,"end":2635.1,"text":"氣象的資訊在分享到各個部會尤其是經濟部有關於降雨、水利的部分還有交通部有關於公路的通阻的部分在平時事實上我們有建構EMIC的資訊系統在做情資分享"},{"start":2635.74,"end":2653.594,"text":"那如果是在應變中心開設的期間的話各部會的同仁都會到應變中心來做報告所以這個部分的資訊分享目前跟委員報告在國內我們算是國際上很有效率而且在執行這個所謂的災害情勢分享上面很有"},{"start":2654.662,"end":2672.31,"text":"成果那現在比較需要強化的部分主要就是在目的事業主管機關對於特定災害的防護那必須要再去做大幅度的一個精進比如說我們最近在關注海嘯的問題我想我也應該也有在媒體上看到"},{"start":2672.99,"end":2687.295,"text":"所以沿海所有的設施的主管機關應該要針對海嘯來對這個部分去做一些準備跟防護那雖然海嘯目前在災防法的主管機關是由內政部"},{"start":2688.528,"end":2708.534,"text":"來做主導但是內政部在海邊的設施大概只有警消的部分的設施那牽涉到漁港牽涉到海巡牽涉到其他單位這可能就要來通力合作好那我完全了解啦也藉著這個次長你現在的回答讓更多人可以理解說我們光是一個氣象站這樣子的一個維運"},{"start":2709.654,"end":2723.403,"text":"其實就牽涉到了非常多的面向那我是認為從我現在能夠得到的資料來看的話其實我們目前對他的維護主要是還是在這個資訊的部分多著重於對於這個"},{"start":2725.265,"end":2731.893,"text":"氣象觀測網的妥善維護多著重於雷達本身和監測資料的品質通訊軟體的暢通這個部分就是您剛剛說的部分那我現在想要強調的部分其實就是我自己在日常的這種會刊經驗當中也可以很清楚"},{"start":2743.588,"end":2759.041,"text":"氣象站是一件事情嘛這是剛剛我們說的那聯外道路這就是剛剛需要交通的部分也希望可以到時候提出更多的你們怎麼去維護這個部分以至於讓氣象站的被使用率維護不是只有那個站體的本身而是包括整個區域範圍這是一個"},{"start":2760.882,"end":2776.548,"text":"不過我現在想類似的例子但跳開氣象戰的這個部分我是覺得比如說像我們那個去年山陀兒颱風啦山陀兒颱風其實造成了像新北市的金山地區就損害非常非常的嚴重那我不曉得這個當時在氣象戰的"},{"start":2778.689,"end":2805.656,"text":"使用資訊上面第一有沒有能夠直接到達該地地區對它的災害市井能夠有更多的提示這是第一個我的問題因為我們金山已經很久沒有淹水了而那一天在最低窪處的老街甚至是超過腰部的淹水而且是商業範圍所以非常的損害嚴重這第一個第二個那個地方雖然它快速的復舊了之後其實你去看金山"},{"start":2806.656,"end":2833.829,"text":"外區外圍地方的連外道路也就是山間的農作道路產業道路等等其實到現在是還沒有修復完成我知道國土署這邊也有盡力去修復了但事實上還沒有完成所以對於大家的產業其實危害也很大這部分就是我剛剛一開始提的跨部會的部分那不曉得你們這邊對於時程對這個案件有瞭解嗎對於時程有掌握嗎還沒有可以更快更精進的做法"},{"start":2835.045,"end":2856.412,"text":"因為金山當時的那個灘災我也有跟委員一起到現場那當天我們可以看得到就是說因為颱風過境之後它的那個氣象條件忽然變得很惡劣所以這個資訊我們是有透過應變中心的系統傳達到因為你剛剛講的其實是蠻好的就是說我們系統都很好可是事實上大概就是來不及啊"},{"start":2857.232,"end":2885.331,"text":"因為這個氣象的變化他很快那我們當時傳達到新北市的災害應變中心他們也了解到有這樣的一個情形那到區公所的時候呢因為這個氣象條件的變化區公所他的因應能力是有限的所以當時在降雨的這個過程裡面區公所其實最主要他要通知民眾就是說在撤離的部分在這個疏散的部分那其他有關於比如說財務的部分你們就沒有辦法"},{"start":2887.092,"end":2913.09,"text":"因為根委報災後的部分也牽涉到包括經濟部在水利單位的一個復舊還有就是我們在道路的部分還包括農業部跟我們國土署所以它是一個跨部會的工作那目前那也是災害的復舊的部分期前的這個災害防治的部分是內政部可以統籌嘛跨部會但內政部統籌那防舊的部分呢防治的不是防治就是後面復舊的部分呢"},{"start":2914.151,"end":2931.611,"text":"復舊部分目前我們在行政院是交給公共工程委員會去做災後重建的總體的一個統籌的工作那內政部我們是對特定的災害類別我們有做災害類別的整個災害防救業務計畫的一個統籌那法令是我們主管所以分工上是有這樣的一個架構"},{"start":2932.372,"end":2951.512,"text":"所以我也是覺得今天雖然我們是在討論法律的建構啦但是我個人比較在意的還是怎麼把事情做出來不管是事前的防治還是事後的復舊的部分那這中間牽涉到真的是太多跨部會的部分我希望在討論的時候呢其實這個內政部可以把實務的案件就像我們今天這樣討論出來你剛剛其實點到了一個點喔我們就是"},{"start":2954.675,"end":2976.363,"text":"區公所的能力可能略嫌不足我們現在不是要苛責區公所反而是那以內政部這樣子的體系下去你有沒有能夠再賦權給區公所更多的量能去協助處理才可以下一次災害發生的時候你不用講出這句話嘛啊我什麼什麼都通知了但也許區公所量能不足那我覺得這個就是一個很可以改進的地方嘛"},{"start":2976.96,"end":3006.01,"text":"市長區公所目前在消防署我們有一個專案的計畫在協助區公所建立防災協作中心那也協助區公所在強化他們在志工這方面的工作那事實上過去我們是既有計畫還是新增計畫是既有計畫所以預算不會受到影響預算目前應該是應該是沒有對應該是沒有預算是因為他是既有的如果我要再加重更多的新技能也許就會受到影響了"},{"start":3007.325,"end":3013.535,"text":"對如果是要訓練的話可能預算的部分就要去做追加好吧那我就問到這裡了話就說到這裡好我們請張志倫委員"},{"start":3033.427,"end":3043.765,"text":"好謝謝主席各位委員各位官員大家早我們是有請這個馬次長好請馬次長還有經濟部的曾副局長好曾副局長"},{"start":3046.806,"end":3074.155,"text":"委員早安好謝謝馬次長首先我還是今天要討論的是有關於這個災防法的議題那我首先還是要對這個內政部及這個警政消防給予肯定因為我相信在災害的發生內政部跟警政消防第一線我相信都做了最大的努力跟最及時的處理所以我還是要代表代表立法院代表所有國人感謝第一線執勤人的辛勞那可是我相信"},{"start":3074.435,"end":3101.081,"text":"今天委員們在質詢的部分很多也是希望說未來中央跟地方一起共同來合作在災害發生的過程中來去減少一些傷亡跟財產的損失所以第一個我要來請教次長的部分現在很多的我們的地下的管線還是有老舊的問題可能會潛藏重大的災害因為台灣的都市發展迅速基礎建設也是非常的密集"},{"start":3101.661,"end":3124.855,"text":"比如說像天然氣管線石化輸送管排水系統電力電信管線污水及排水相關設施這些重要的生命線基礎遍佈全台可是深埋在地底下導致長年有受到疏忽那相關的問題如果有因為管理不當而重生會造成公共安全的一個重大的隱憂那我想要請教這個次長"},{"start":3125.855,"end":3152.804,"text":"這個各個縣市如果地下管線已經使用超過30年那一般的這種腐蝕洩漏的問題嚴重可能會影響到公共安全的問題這個現在我們這個內政部有辦法統計有多少育齡的管線在使用那有沒有一些定期的這個監測機制然後如何來汰換這些老舊的管線這是一個很大的問題那我想像市長你現在有辦法來回答嗎"},{"start":3154.124,"end":3172.344,"text":"跟委員報告我們就內政部的部分先跟次長做回報先跟委員做回報對就是那個地下管線的部分我們在那個高雄氣爆之後已經有要求各事業主管機關把管線的資訊移交到我們的消防機關還有國科會"},{"start":3174.326,"end":3196.055,"text":"那我們目前在檔案的部分我們都有建立那管線的建置因為有不同的年代所以它不同的年代它在衛星定位跟這個管線的深埋的這個問題上面可能會有一些落差所以也透過這幾年我們在圖資上面不斷的更新目前當然我們對管線的位置跟它的深度大概都能夠掌握"},{"start":3196.815,"end":3221.192,"text":"但是就是塗車的部分我們沒有問題所以如果說哪一段管線它有狀況的話我們在119的系統在我們的EMIC的系統我們都看得到它在什麼位置但是剛剛委員所垂詢的有關於管線腐蝕老舊跟替換的問題因為主管機關目前是經濟部所以這個部分在管線管理的部分我們是不是可以請經濟部這邊來做一下回應好 請經濟部的曾副局長 謝謝"},{"start":3226.235,"end":3231.577,"text":"首先謝謝委員關心我們的業務那跟委員報告就是針對整個地下管線的部分不管是他的在做腐蝕相關的這個監控部分其實我們都有有在做我們的即時監控同時我們也會要求業者要提出針對整個的管線維護營運管理的計劃那每一年提出來之後我們隔年也都會配合相關的單位包含地方政府我們會去做這個相關查核的部分"},{"start":3251.162,"end":3269.609,"text":"好等一下謝謝副局長那這邊當然這個經濟部像中央政府單位其實都是以這個督導的方式來做那所以希望說未來跟地方政府的溝通就是說要定期就像副局長講的定期然後如果任何的問題其實大家可以多做溝通協調好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":3272.15,"end":3299.1,"text":"好 那再請市長市長那我請教一下看這個問題就是說現在我們很多的都會就像剛剛不管講了高雄的過去的這個起爆事件大家都不想看到這樣的發生那台灣都市區有些道路也常今年來發生這個道路坍塌那許多案例跟地下管線的破損或滲漏有關是不是可以請教市長是不是有辦法建立這些道路坍塌監測相關的一個機制"},{"start":3301.381,"end":3325.124,"text":"現在有這樣的機制嗎跟委員回報就是道路坍塌的機制部分目前我們應該是沒有相關的監測機制那道路主管機關因為分屬於交通部跟內政部各有不同的管轄的範圍那我們在平時的道路養護就是說在這個道路養護工程單位他會去做監測但是沒有一個剛剛委員所提到就是說一個比較完整的監測機制"},{"start":3326.525,"end":3343.833,"text":"好是不是請市長那你有沒有有沒有機會這個內政部可以提出相關的一個規劃就是說未來我們的道路除了去大家知道說平常要把它重新這個重新整修以外有沒有考慮說要提出這個有關於道路有可能貪他牽涉的相關的機制"},{"start":3344.83,"end":3368.437,"text":"跟委員報這個部分我們回頭請國土署那國土署這邊有關於管線的單位還有我們道路轄管的機關我們會去做這樣的一個尤其是雙北六都因為現在這個整個地狹人稠的一個部分所以我覺得未來就是道路灘它的部分如果可以提早的去了解那以及為周邊如果有一些重大建設的開挖其實相關的資料我就認為都可以給國土署做一個相對應的參考"},{"start":3371.108,"end":3388.181,"text":"好 謝謝那第二個再請教我們那個馬次長的部分剛剛有特別提出來就是說有關於施工有時候誤挖平船塗資管理落後剛剛有講到高雄這個氣爆事件其實內政部已經有在協助的一個部分可是針對如果沒有發生重大"},{"start":3389.362,"end":3416.076,"text":"問題的這個地方是不是還是有圖資的一些相關的問題所以才造成說這個有時候挖下去的時候發現說管道跟實際上的狀況不太一樣的問題那是不是說除了一些過去有發生災害的一個地方是不是其他有任何的經濟改善措施就是說來讓其他六都比較重要的一些城市地下管路圖資的一些正確性"},{"start":3417.156,"end":3421.216,"text":"有沒有辦法建立一個全國性的地下管線投資登錄平台"},{"start":3423.445,"end":3452.341,"text":"跟委員報告目前就是說在我們地下管線的部分比較容易發生狀況是天然瓦斯的管線那其他有關於電力水力因為它分屬於不同的主管機關所以我們現在塗製的部分我們是有那至於說剛剛委員提到就是說施工單位本身它在面對這樣的一個施工環境裡面能不能夠掌握這個管線的位置這可能包括地方政府還有施工單位他要去做這樣的一個查核"},{"start":3453.081,"end":3472.854,"text":"所以內政部這邊我們會跟經濟部合作有關於管線的部分在道路底下的管線我們會去合作跟地方政府來合作但是如果說牽涉到施工的部分的話可能就要由地方政府跟施工單位來一起努力好那有沒有建議因為我現在的圖資就我個人現在所了解都是在地方政府的這個"},{"start":3474.455,"end":3488.404,"text":"施工單位去調相關的圖那有沒有辦法說未來有建立全國的地下管線的圖資登錄平台圖資系統嘛 全國的地下管線都是在各自在處理嘛沒有 但是全國我們才"},{"start":3491.165,"end":3517.087,"text":"沒關係這個部分如果沒有辦法的話就是我們的期待啦好不好好那接下來我再請教經濟部好不好經濟部那目前來講齁這個台灣的天然氣的需求尤其現在台灣的電力政策能源政策是這個以氣來取代這個燃煤嘛齁所以天然氣的需求近年不再增加齁那目前靠一階跟二階來穩定供應天然氣並降低燃煤發電比例那這些輸氣管"},{"start":3518.368,"end":3538.197,"text":"當然很多專家學者認為說這管線負荷很大的一些問題的狀況安全性跟穩定性真有疑慮那如果像一階二階的天然氣輸送管是否承擔了高負荷的運送任務那有沒有做這個長期壓力有沒有做這個定期進行管線的壽命評估的這些作業"},{"start":3540.121,"end":3559.775,"text":"謝謝委員指導那這個部分可能後續我們再來跟中油或是我們部內的主管單位我們讓他確認一下那如果委員有需要我們再跟委員做進一步的報告好那最後還是感謝這個次長經濟部就有關於這個人民的安全就是說長期埋在地下的這些不管是"},{"start":3560.855,"end":3574.909,"text":"這個下水道還有剛剛講的這個天然氣比較容易有造成問題的部分還是希望說各部會跨部會來因應現在台灣的極端氣候等影響跟地震影響來做整體的規劃謝謝謝謝委員好我們請蔓越正委員"},{"start":3591.66,"end":3594.462,"text":"謝謝主席 有請次長好 請馬次長委員早安好 次長早請教一下我們處在地震就是常常地震的我們的台灣在從九二一地震之後我們開始特別注重災後重建"},{"start":3618.84,"end":3634.571,"text":"還有建築的安全針對目前零一二一嘉義大埔的地震災後的補助請教次長不同的類型的災險護研就像說拆除重建補強修繕還有核發補助時依據標準是緊急性的重建性還是會考量說我們的災民的經濟狀況呢"},{"start":3649.192,"end":3651.627,"text":"要如何去補助的 如何去修繕"},{"start":3653.454,"end":3680.383,"text":"報委我們現在只要是地震發生之後我們第一個最重要的工作就是我們會請結構技師的這個工會來支援我們那去做建築物的一個災損的勘查那就是我們所謂的紅單跟黃單那這一次的這個嘉義大埔震災它比較特別一點是因為它不是一次地震它是很多次地震一直累積起來所以它是一個有點慢的災害"},{"start":3681.468,"end":3701.044,"text":"那所以在每一次的這個不斷的這樣的一個地震的過程裡面它的這個紅黃單就會變化那它要不斷的去追這個進度然後張貼到底是紅單或黃單那災禍補助的部分目前全國是有一個統一的標準只是說居民被張貼了這個紅黃單之後"},{"start":3703.106,"end":3714.76,"text":"他後續的這個處理的方式是不一樣的所以在這個部分我們可能會有一些同仁他們如果需要委員需要細部的回答的話我們是不是可以請同仁來做補充委員好 那就是說我們針對這個"},{"start":3722.61,"end":3737.661,"text":"這兩次地震我們在租金補貼或是這個耐震落成補強補貼的方面我們基本上那個金額跟機制都是一致的都是統一的統一的標準以上謝謝所以我們全國都一致不是因為專案來去補助"},{"start":3740.302,"end":3768.785,"text":"所以說如果是這樣子的話關於就是你的回覆是說建議先應用善款處理不足的部分再向行政院爭取贈災基金的提供所以目前的機制範圍監督是這些善款流向還有細部的使用的情形如何我們善款流向是我們請贈災基金會因為他們是主管那個善款的部分"},{"start":3770.176,"end":3781.526,"text":"所以说都会达到因为时间有限所以都是达到我们是及时紧急的补助嘛这个部分就是上款的部分"},{"start":3782.364,"end":3803.092,"text":"還有申請的流程有就是說各個區因為一個地方有很多區不同剛才你說就是不同的就是一直後續的去產生所以說這樣的災民你覺得是補助是就是一致性的有公平嗎有滿足說這個災民的需要嗎"},{"start":3807.844,"end":3828.12,"text":"我們目前的作業程序這都是由村里長跟公所來合作那民眾他本身在受災的這個第一時間我們會有所謂的救助那救助的部分就是由公所跟村里長去做調查之後認定然後來發放這樣的一個救助的金額"},{"start":3828.94,"end":3850.198,"text":"是,但是我看到剛才你說因為勘查的時候是由我們的技術工會來辦理那個是針對房屋對,針對房屋還有補助,所以你剛才有講說但是說紅單跟黃單的影響居住補助的差別"},{"start":3851.098,"end":3875.213,"text":"所以請教我們市長現在的你勘察的除了就是統一表格以外會不會因為不同的機制就是認定就是有差別所以如何鎮定這種差異以免我們在乎無法是實際可以去領這個補助我們是關心的是說因為你看的是黃單跟"},{"start":3878.553,"end":3892.464,"text":"紅單但是有的黃單他們是低收或者是說有及時需要的時候你們有沒有其他的就是一個規定還有就是幫忙這個才是我們最關心的"},{"start":3893.212,"end":3912.804,"text":"根委員報告,我們所有的紅黃單的張貼,它在10天之內它會由所謂的三大技師公會來做緊急扶貧緊急評估完之後,民眾還是可以跟當地政府申請扶貧"},{"start":3913.664,"end":3941.298,"text":"那目前我們在0121的這個地震都是由地方政府他現在在受理扶貧所以以這個委員所提到的就是我們的祭祀公會在對紅黃單的認定他是有一致的標準他有一致的規定那民眾如果對於這個認定他認為有疑義的話他會申請扶貧但是基本上我們都會從寬去做認定去協助民眾在災後能夠獲得最大的一個支持"},{"start":3941.958,"end":3956.632,"text":"很好所以讓我們的民眾才了解說你是用一致的標準來去勘察還有就是說我們花蓮跟我們嘉義的地震是補助也是同樣都是同一個標準這樣的話對我們在地震的地區的民眾"},{"start":3962.037,"end":3965.618,"text":"他們才會覺得是說公平是 謝謝委員關係還有第二個想要去問我們就是消防署的署長關於我們就是台中新冠三月就發生七爆造成很多人死亡"},{"start":3978.803,"end":3985.349,"text":"但是除了事後追查原因責任外我們更應該重視我們公共場所的措施安全還有就是實施還有預防因為初步報告我們看到的氣爆現場不排除因為切除瓦斯管線時就是瓦斯外洩導致施工產生的氣爆但是因為瓦斯氣爆我們火災的自動警報設備"},{"start":4007.548,"end":4008.151,"text":"依據各類場所消防安全設備的"},{"start":4013.418,"end":4039.965,"text":"設置標準規定使用瓦石是地下地下層的建築屋才需要安裝但是經過這次的七報案有沒有重新研議增加需要裝設就是偵測的場所還有是否考量我們公共建設密閉式的時候強化建設就是瓦石外洩偵測的設備"},{"start":4042.146,"end":4046.644,"text":"有沒有這樣的一個計畫或者行政做措施"},{"start":4047.108,"end":4074.62,"text":"好 感謝委員垂詢新光三越這個場所因為是屬於賣場所以它本身就有天然氣使用也有裝置設備 偵測設備那只不過說因為施工過程當中它沒有把這個設備維護正常使用功能造成天然氣漏氣沒辦法偵測到這個簡報的一個問題所以針對這個設備不能使用台中市也針對不能使用的狀況開放"},{"start":4076.121,"end":4091.778,"text":"那對於施工中的防火管理沒有施作也有做開發的動作跟委員做報告所以針對這樣的規定我們是說要求是地下設的建物現在的話我們的建築都有這樣的設備的要求"},{"start":4100.041,"end":4103.763,"text":"所以這樣的話我們是因為在過程中我們要如何讓說嚴格再去把關因為現在跟以前不一樣以前這是我們是樓層現在都是高樓所以說這些的建設或者是說我們要遵守安全的標準還有我們的承包商我們的罰款也是要這個也是行我們的署長"},{"start":4127.894,"end":4151.421,"text":"這邊要去把關希望我們就是就是在關於這個危險物還有高風險這個部分我們要多多用心所以說希望我們的安全的部分和我們的署長這邊希望大家共同來去達到最更好的所以剛才你回答這個部分我希望說我們的高樓還有我們地方都要去"},{"start":4155.475,"end":4164.699,"text":"把這樣子的標準來去做好好感謝委員是好謝謝好我們請牛軒廳委員謝謝主席這個馬市長有請好請馬市長委員早安市長早安"},{"start":4180.443,"end":4198.861,"text":"這個本席一直都非常關心這個倉儲的防火這個的部分當然今天討論災害防救法大概文字上的一些修正跟微調還有一些精神的加強這本席都敬表支持希望審議的過程可以順利那但是討論法條我覺得不如好好去看一看我們的災害防救的白皮書啦"},{"start":4199.581,"end":4216.86,"text":"然後並且跟本席一直都關心的倉儲的防災的部分來做一個討論這113年的災害防救白皮書有針對工廠的安全統合管理機制有提很多的對策比如說盤查管理啊 查核啊 演練等等對不對這都是這都是題中應有之議啦"},{"start":4217.461,"end":4238.222,"text":"那這個113年的8月21日這個陳金德政委也有主持跟倉儲有關因為倉儲其實有討論了一段時間就是說要強化倉儲業者的危險物品管理延商所以說有把危險物品拉出來不管是不是存放在工廠的廠區之內但是倉庫或寄存只要是危險物品的時候它應該就要有所謂的依法"},{"start":4238.782,"end":4257.485,"text":"申報的這樣子一個一個程序但大體來講他還是附屬在工廠下面的嘛也就工廠如果有危險物品的管理原料他如果倉儲他要申報的那再加上我們去年通過的這個消防法的修正案也有把一定規模以上的倉儲納管但那個討論的是火災發生的時候這個消防救災的資訊權的確保"},{"start":4258.766,"end":4284.068,"text":"所以他其實有一點點的進度但我還是要繼續往前來追蹤這個題目因為我相信以目前這樣子的一個防守的強度大概還是很難杜絕所有倉儲的這個火災這個我就先請教一下這個次長這個倉儲跟工廠的類型是不是一樣報委是不同的應該是不同的對不對這我也不用問經濟部其實是非常清楚的從防災角度來講他也是不一樣的那現在以"},{"start":4285.251,"end":4311.812,"text":"你你從防災主觀的這樣子一個角度來出發啦齁如果說倉儲只存放一般物品有沒有必要要擴大納管或者是要怎麼樣來納管有沒有討論過這樣的事情報委員倉儲基本上他還是要有基本的消防安全設備對那麼如果他儲存的不是所謂的危險物品的話那麼他還是需要在我們的資訊介入權上面要告訴我們他裡面所儲存的內容是什麼因為他還是會有火災的風險"},{"start":4312.592,"end":4325.955,"text":"還是有火災的風險嘛但我們的消防法只能目前只能規範到就是說發生火災之後你要提供相關資訊嘛對不對可是平日的平日的防火和盤查跟檢查等等的這樣一個機制目前有沒有一個規章來做規範"},{"start":4328.111,"end":4356.769,"text":"我們目前是想要修請這個工廠輔導法裡面去處理這個問題這就本期要強調就是說理論上來講規範倉儲應該說規範相關防火的過去大家的重點都放在工廠所以是從工廠管理輔導法裡面來處理但剛剛我們也討論到其實工廠跟倉儲有一些本質上的差別那就造成一件事情就是工廠管理輔導法有規範很多跟防火相關的事情讓你的災害防救有辦法順利的進行可是倉儲沒有它等於是有點像漏網之魚這是第一個狀況"},{"start":4357.409,"end":4382.03,"text":"第二個狀況是即便現在的狀況是講說我工廠附屬的危險物品你是用倉儲的方式處理的時候你要納管但我那天跟基層的消防弟兄座談跟了解的時候他們提了一個問題很好我如果單純只是販賣危險物品因為產業鏈嘛我如果是進口外國進口商我進口一批化學藥劑它是屬於的危險物品但是我只是代理進口而已啊然後我進口之後我就放到了其中一個倉儲請問這樣的狀況是有沒有要申報的"},{"start":4385.531,"end":4411.236,"text":"鮑偉如果說他達到儲存管制量30倍以上那他基本上就要申報我們也要聯合稽查對但是問題是我這我就跟市長我們的認知可能就出現一點差別就我們的了解是基於工廠管理輔導法等等相關的延伸規定跟你災害防救規定所以是工廠端去處理這個事可是我剛剛講是進口喔我只是進過來然後找時間把它賣掉這個其實就我本期的了解從消防第一線的反應是他反而是查不到的"},{"start":4412.165,"end":4428.023,"text":"因為他沒有在這個守備範圍裡面所以這就是本期今天要提這個職權原因就從你的宅在房舊白皮書裡面我希望齁這個針對倉儲的部分有進一步的進一步的討論啦我們當然一步到位就是說要全面納管或什麼當然很快然後也會造成一定的衝擊這本期完全理解"},{"start":4428.483,"end":4433.13,"text":"但是我覺得如果只做到資訊權是不夠的換言之我們要針對工廠管理輔導法要做進一步的討論現在內政部針對工廠管理輔導法如果要納緩倉儲或者是強化他的防火設備你們現在有什麼具體的規劃跟進度跟經濟部對話有沒有什麼具體的成果"},{"start":4445.438,"end":4460.638,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個部分當然剛剛委員有提到就是說行政院目前有政委在協調這件事情那如果說以消防署或是內政部的角度來看的話我們現在目前第一優先的是要去處理所謂的公共危險物品的倉庫"},{"start":4461.699,"end":4479.234,"text":"因為這個部分對於我們救災人員的威脅是最大的所以我們目前大概在地方政府回報我們總共納管了142家那這個不同的縣市政府有它的數字那這些都是我們在工廠之外的公共危險物品倉庫我們現在都已經納管"},{"start":4481.42,"end":4502.484,"text":"對 有沒有包含進口的市長你可以回去瞭解一下啦就本期的瞭解是 進口比如說代理我只是專門進那個是漏網之魚 這個我覺得立刻要處理如果可以有一套規章可以納管來做納管那第二個 我還是希望未來工廠管理輔導法要有一定的修正跟考量倉儲跟工廠當然不一樣比如說工廠我們是用防火區劃的邏輯來規劃 來做災害的預防"},{"start":4506.505,"end":4529.896,"text":"那當然你用倉儲你要求他用比照工廠用防火區法可能他就有實際上的困難因為他就對於倉儲的容量等等造成一些影響因為他也沒有產線沒有人啊對不對所以他有不同的說法那你們自己建築研究所其實也做過研究嘛也就是物流倉儲建築設置防火區法的方案研究裡面其實就有提到好像沒有辦法一體適用但是他們有提一個新的概念比如說有淨空隔離帶啊我只要讓區域"},{"start":4531.016,"end":4551.408,"text":"拉的夠開那你這個隔離帶剛好可以做比如說倉儲的這個運輸的一個動線等等那我覺得這表示你們其實有在做一些研究的那既然你們已經有針對倉儲的防火相關的一些規範已經有在做研究我就希望未來可以進到下一步的討論我們消防法只是第一步嘛工廠管理輔導法它可能不見得你要嘛就有個倉儲的專法嘛"},{"start":4552.409,"end":4566.686,"text":"要嘛就是也許在工廠管理輔導法裡面有一個倉促的專章在平常的時候他就要有納管跟防災的這樣的一些配套的機制這樣子的一個想法你們內政部打算有沒有執行的一個時間表或者說你有遇到一些阻力或難題"},{"start":4567.885,"end":4590.863,"text":"跟委員報告 我們目前在 剛剛委員提到就是說包括建研所他們所做的這些研究我們會把這些資訊再跟經濟部去做分享那至於說對倉儲業者或者是倉儲的納管我們目前除了消防法之外那就是我們跟經濟部在公服法這塊我們會去討論但是時間表的部分跟委員報告目前我這邊所知是還沒有"},{"start":4591.614,"end":4610.401,"text":"我希望這部分稍微可以明確一點啦所以簡單就做個結論啦第一個就是說現在你針對既有危險物品的納管我希望你再進口這一端啦也就是說它非工廠生產出來的而是進口販賣的這一端它的倉儲的部分你要有一個專案的配套計畫那第二個我希望把"},{"start":4611.93,"end":4630.258,"text":"這個工廠管理服務法的修正你要提到有具體的一些做法比如說你有哪些條文要修正你至少內政部從防災的這個地方來出發你總可以有一些主張嘛那經濟部有哪些反應你如果沒有一些條文或者是沒有一些內容的話恐怕有困難這一點我希望我給這個次長一個月的時間"},{"start":4631.098,"end":4647.031,"text":"好 做一下相關的一些規範比如說你們對話的幾次 開了哪些會議好 目前遇到的狀況是怎麼樣修法的預計的期程是什麼這讓本席一個月之內有書面資料可以掌握可以嗎好 我們提供資料給委員好 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝牛許廷委員接下來我們請張宏祿交委好 我請次長跟署長"},{"start":4661.494,"end":4681.486,"text":"總委早安委員早安署長像剛剛說這個工廠的危險物品的這個我也跟你說過很多次了就是這個現在都是科技都AI了那我們到底有沒有具體的規劃了"},{"start":4683.863,"end":4705.572,"text":"是 跟我們回報就是我一直關心微型物品跟建築物的平面圖這個區塊我們目前兩個區塊一個就是工廠微型物品在雲端那雲端這個區塊大概都已經到位那我們接下來會跟化學所在研究怎麼把這些化學物品用AI化"},{"start":4706.792,"end":4731.981,"text":"來讓我們就在裡面更清楚掌握產生化學物品反應以後造成什麼結果那目前是先做到就是報案以後我們可以把現場的九宮閣的狀況就USUS的呈現的這個結果先讓現場第一線同學了解說這個場所裡面有哪些危險物品資訊在裡面這是第一步已經做到那在派遣這階段已經做到了"},{"start":4732.421,"end":4760.091,"text":"那另外再進一步就是再進一步的分析那分析以後怎麼得到這個資訊這個有計劃正在執行當中那對於國土署這邊建築圖的平面圖這個區塊呢我們後續是有個五連中程計劃對119派遣系統在做一個精進那兩個系統就微型物品跟建築物的平面圖這個區塊我們也同步在做這方面的計劃"},{"start":4761.391,"end":4790.336,"text":"跟知情當中跟委員會報但這個中間如果他有私自挪移你在圖上是看不到的啊這個是比較所以我們在很感謝委員上個會期有通過消防法修正案就是危險物品場所的人員專人在發生事故以後在現場做一個提報讓我們就在於了解說這個現場到底有什麼委員關係有沒有變化"},{"start":4790.936,"end":4819.022,"text":"那這個區塊他沒有做的話我們在去年處罰的額度相當重那在上個月我們特別學習到日本有COHOMA的宣言就是要報告跟我們報告消防機關報告什麼東西那個區塊我們也把它具體化就是讓專責人員要做什麼事怎麼讓他跟我們消防救災人員做一個溝通這個目前正在進行當中很感謝委員關心沒有齁其實有一個觀念都要改市長是"},{"start":4820.546,"end":4845.862,"text":"你知不知道現在啊自動倉儲化設備他們都怎麼做他們連一個東西齁擺在哪裡然後怎麼移動什麼的其實都AI化都電腦化了捏你任何移動一個像你的那種東西如果你要出貨其實在鍵盤上打一打自動都輸送了都直接出來了捏倉儲都做得到捏啊這個做不到嗎"},{"start":4851.92,"end":4878.153,"text":"這個一定規模的業者對倉儲的管理他的那個自動化跟AI化這個沒有問題我們現在有很多的業者他可能都比較小型的或者是家庭式我只問你做不做得到以現在的科技做不做得到你只回答我一句就好了科技做得到好對嘛啊做得到是啊那你針對大型的你為什麼不去要求"},{"start":4880.069,"end":4905.22,"text":"你沒有那麼多藉口啦真正發生嚴重事情就是大型嘛你的中小型也不可能發生多大的爆炸也不可能說齁有多大的危險啊它還是有啊但你對於這種大型的業者倉儲都做得到了這個做不到這就看出有沒有魄力要做而已啊對不對是不是啊市長"},{"start":4906.926,"end":4928.561,"text":"包委我們努力對我們會努力你們努力啦齁這個問題我跟署長也講過很久了啦齁這也不是為了我個人這最主要的是為了人民的生命財產還有保護我們消防弟兄做這些事情是為了這兩個目的而已這個我真的覺得應該要去做啊對不對齁這個沒有"},{"start":4931.448,"end":4945.177,"text":"如果我是部長我覺得這沒有空間這一定要做好不好那再來我想請問一下防災室我們現在到底計畫做得如何啊署長防災室"},{"start":4946.159,"end":4969.871,"text":"是 感謝委員 防災是目前到去年底已經超過4萬人的一個培訓量那今年我們在在整個由下而上的力量我們今年對於常備役跟替代役也做個普訓那目前的訓練量可能在今年應該可以達到10萬人左右的這個量多少 這個正在進行當中今年 早半"},{"start":4970.211,"end":4979.627,"text":"今年去年4萬今年會到10萬因為今年把常備役跟替代役這個現役的跟退役的這樣都納入訓練民眾自主報名的勒"},{"start":4980.39,"end":4999.624,"text":"民眾自主報名現在我們也跟縣市來做一個協同合作那目前是每個縣市至少要300位的量每個縣市300位的量現在正在執行當中好300位啦每個縣市300位好那我覺得你們要既然要推這個計畫了經費給你們了我覺得啦齁"},{"start":5004.301,"end":5021.946,"text":"民間自主報名的那才重要啦啊你那些什麼那些我說真的你你不如說我我去到去去齁軍校我也每個人都要每個人這樣數字就很快了啊對不對好謝謝好我們來努力謝謝委員好謝謝張宏祿張偉再來我們請李博義委員"},{"start":5037.911,"end":5061.217,"text":"謝謝 請馬次長還有蕭署長委員長好安委員長好安今年2025年齁那是高雄氣爆發生的第11年這11年來其實"},{"start":5063.55,"end":5090.883,"text":"包含有很多過去曾經在高雄市政府消防局的同仁我還記得那天晚上高雄市消防局的主任秘書跟很多現場的消防局的人員走到凱旋路跟二聖路的路口的時候一邊往左一邊往右往左這一群人包含高雄市消防局的主任秘書"},{"start":5092.133,"end":5110.346,"text":"是最後一個在氣爆現場被找到的罹難弟兄當時沒有人知道高雄市的地底下有那麼多的石化管線發生了這個氣爆之後當然這個原因"},{"start":5114.451,"end":5143.292,"text":"後來一一探究出來包含當時是1986年中油接受李長榮失話委託埋設但是當時在下水道工程處驗收的人員沒有強制請中油公司或李長榮把這條管線移除所以發生了這個事件也造成當時的基層人員後來也入獄"},{"start":5145,"end":5171.949,"text":"服刑為這件事情負責所以這是一個悲劇讓我們知道接下來不要再發生這些事情但是我還是要必須要回過頭來看一下當時的行政院做了什麼事情當時的行政院滿有政府不編列特別預算不訂定管線管理專法不成立中央重建會"},{"start":5172.972,"end":5191.538,"text":"放著高雄市政府自己去處理所有的罹難者包含傷者包含我們所有的消防弟兄所以這是一個非常悲痛的事情到時隔11年後的今天2024年我們已經把過去氣爆前的89條"},{"start":5193.987,"end":5215.798,"text":"這個石化管線降到71條其中有59條還在使用中長度一共有932公里涵蓋14個行政區如果在我們的消防署以及地方政府沒有做這個相關的這些石化管線的這些圖資的重整"},{"start":5216.567,"end":5240.823,"text":"我們也很難想像未來在發生類似有氣味事件出來以後那我們整個消防地區要如何來因應所以在這邊2014年的7月31的凌晨發生到現在那我希望災害不是只有地方政府可以處理"},{"start":5241.738,"end":5262.767,"text":"我們整個消防署我們整個行政院其實跟地方的整個不管是圖資或者是相關的這些必須要可以提供救災的這些內容我們必須要審慎的來完整整個消防地區可以去對於相關救災的這些資訊請教署長這些相關的資訊你認為現在充足嗎"},{"start":5271.855,"end":5293.811,"text":"報告委員我們現在在地方政府的合作目前的合作機制目前有一個合作的平台那在疫苗中心開設這個也有一個運作的機制那當災害來臨之前我們的預警措施跟通報跟啟動疫苗機制這個大概都已經到位那整個災情的掌控跟了解跟處理"},{"start":5294.571,"end":5322.06,"text":"我們EMIC系統大概都已經到位都已經運作幾年下來以後大概在過去幾次災害裡面也有進行的考驗對救災的資源目前有200多萬筆的資料也在資料庫裡面這個都已經到位了所以經過一次又一次的考驗大概這樣的合作默契跟潤滑跟彼此間的合作關係甚至中央對地方的合作大概有一個期日在"},{"start":5322.66,"end":5344.925,"text":"那災防辦也每年針對於地方政府對於災害防救推動也做一個訪評那訪評完以後到底還有存在哪些需要增進的地方我們也做一個強化那同時像去年的幾次中南颱風以後事實上我們一直在檢討就發生以後中間有哪些地方是不順的卡卡的"},{"start":5345.325,"end":5368.577,"text":"那怎麼來調整這樣的一個機制大概我們也同步在做一個檢討設計尤其比較具體就是我們在偏遠山區在偏遠山區的通訊這個部分先到位那最近也在針對偏遠山區到底它的電力是不是透過就是用太陽能板的機制來做電力的供應這目前在檢討調整經驗當中這個跟委員回報"},{"start":5371.838,"end":5393.368,"text":"謝謝署長那站在這個防災或者是救災所有的消防弟兄站在第一線那我們必須要有充足的這些資訊給他們那另外就是最近的台中新光三越也會衍生相關營業場所這些室內裝修的這些申請然後審核我想我們都必須要再加強"},{"start":5394.215,"end":5403.761,"text":"另外對於很多的天然災害包含這些地震的消息其實現在的認知作戰在網路的這個"},{"start":5405.08,"end":5429.774,"text":"訊息傳播上非常非常的嚴重常常會有一些散播災害不實消息的這些訊息那我在這邊也希望消防署還有內政部這邊嚴正這個訊息如果有這些亂散播訊息的比如說啦哪裡地震然後哪裡開始火災啦什麼這個沒有經過查證去傳這些相關的訊息我覺得對於民眾都要做一定的"},{"start":5430.983,"end":5451.347,"text":"宣導不要讓民眾這樣誤傳感謝委員這個部分有罰則災害防救法裡面有罰則散佈不實的災情訊息這個我們都一直在注意到這樣的發展跟不實訊息的傳遞必須要做一定的宣導感謝委員市長你回應一下不實訊息你回應一下"},{"start":5453.014,"end":5468.893,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在有幾個法律可以處理第一個如果是跟災害有關的話氣象法災害防救法都可以處理那另外就是說如果是跟我們現在有沒有處罰過處分過目前不實訊息沒有災害防救法沒有不實訊息沒有"},{"start":5469.955,"end":5482.651,"text":"那氣象法有氣象法他們對這個有一些氣象粉磚沒有具備這個氣象保保員資格的話他們有處分那這是在交通部那我們社會法也有處分過好謝謝好謝謝委員好我們請王美惠委員"},{"start":5497.011,"end":5499.912,"text":"主席,我們現在正式好,請馬市長委員長市長,在這裡本學要跟你談到今天我們的防災事的問題是在我們83年就開始推動"},{"start":5521.567,"end":5532.992,"text":"在這個過程當中這個推動之後你如果已經那個防災室已經夠全台灣有四萬兩千人在四萬兩千人的時間到日期有六百可能的但是剛才本市所聽到的我們的消防署署長說每一個所在"},{"start":5549.719,"end":5552.02,"text":"最少要有三百人甚至在這裡本席請教一個問題一個地方像我的故鄉中間二十萬人外我現在的母親"},{"start":5566.567,"end":5578.816,"text":"六八控兩個,但是我們這個防災室,是專業要怎麼保障去幫助自己的救災嘛你認為到現在,這樣我們是不是要再呼召地方有機加熱水的人,再去訓練這個防災室嗎?來"},{"start":5591.617,"end":5598.079,"text":"現在我們除了剛才蕭榮樹說的一個所在六百的以外沒有,他說三百,一個所在三百"},{"start":5606.718,"end":5628.897,"text":"一年三百但是我們現在還有另外一個管道現在對計程車司機跟公寓大廈管理人員我們現在也在做專案的強化所以消防署這邊在努力國土署跟我們透過交通部我們也同時在做所以不是只有消防署在訓練防災室我們現在透過各個部會都在訓練這件事情"},{"start":5629.918,"end":5638.703,"text":"都有透過每一個地方的訓練更多人在這裡面 我覺得台中消防署現在補充說一天最少300人不是到目前我們一百十三年到現在是一天增加300人 一天增加300人"},{"start":5656.383,"end":5661.51,"text":"是這樣嗎?因為這個醫生,三百的醫生是消防署的醫生,但是譬如說,剛才說到的計程車,還是公寓大廈,還是說白的保肥,他會用白的保肥醫生去做這個訓練。"},{"start":5674.326,"end":5675.927,"text":"當然啦,不然你還可以說後面淋淋淋淋的,這樣不行啦這我們是知道,這是我的想法,是覺得每一個縣市都應該輔導他們那麼多人,作為防災士啦尤其現在"},{"start":5693.345,"end":5709.562,"text":"你看像家裡就好了,最近地黨是要如何互助和自治,可以保護自己這是最重要的,市長你可知道,你們的困難當中,為委託民間的委託好"},{"start":5713.786,"end":5722.013,"text":"多多教育器沒有委託任何一間校也好 民間也好 基金會也好你知不知道來 市長是 教育院報告訓練機構是用民間自己申請的所以現在教育器如果沒有訓練機構我們可以來負責 我覺得民間的申請像校"},{"start":5740.769,"end":5746.751,"text":"國立會有很多基金會的地方我的意思就是說不用說一定是被動的啦有時候我們是中央跟地方要互相的嘛不是說你自己沒來申請自己就不用啦 不可以這樣啦如果一個地方被我們"},{"start":5765.875,"end":5771.439,"text":"每次都沒來申請,跟他爺爺的爺爺,不就都不用訓練,就要去百貫市訓練我覺得可以輔導一下,好不好因為本身的所了解,是覺得自己去補,那些官員去處理,才對"},{"start":5785.77,"end":5811.308,"text":"在這個犯罪室裡面本身要探討的就是我們內政部有消防署另外自己的訓練農業部水利署水保署也自己訓練經濟部的水利署也自己訓練那這些單位有辦法整合起來嗎來 市長"},{"start":5813.489,"end":5831.141,"text":"我們現在已經整合了,農業部跟經濟部的多元防災室,我有納入土石油的專員跟防汛志工,我們都有給他認可他的資格,然後把他納入我們的多元防災室"},{"start":5832.181,"end":5836.642,"text":"因為市長我才會這樣問,因為現在最近有的人不知道你們已經整好了,可以,剛才你說的已經把糖納入了,所以我覺得這是非常重要的訊息,要讓我們的"},{"start":5852.367,"end":5857.088,"text":"救災人員還是消防署這邊大家多溝通知道這個問題因為我覺得你們有的做不代表大家都知道你們的努力在哪裡所以要多多去溝通一下要溝通大家知道中央政府"},{"start":5874.312,"end":5878.155,"text":"是做到什麼 跟現在的防災有需要怎麼改善嗎這是最重要的 本席跟你剛才說的就是防災事的問題我們也在一起 能夠輔導那麼多人來我們會來輔導"},{"start":5892.406,"end":5900.251,"text":"在這正是本縣在正當說到我們消防署的發揮在跟我們這裡議銷這個提檢的問題現在不知道辦到哪裡來 署長感謝委員我們最近兩個部門同時在進行 其中一個問題是健保署裡面我們大數據裡面分析我們消防裡面大概有哪些問題"},{"start":5919.224,"end":5921.466,"text":"不是啊,市長,我現在過程,你要去努力啦,現在我是要了解所說的,就是說,我們這裡的泡沫林園,這裡的技校,所做的東西,所監促他們的權利,他們當時可以使用。"},{"start":5940.619,"end":5948.205,"text":"這樣還要緊啊確認了就開始執行今年是5月10月還是12月應該4月1號應該就確認了就開始那4月1號是6月還是8月我們會跟地方政府來合作啦因為我想說有的做時間也要快我知道政府的錢扣一千一百都是要有幾位要有以上"},{"start":5970.282,"end":5972.243,"text":"我們有辦法開,這是沒有錯,但是要趕快,因為正當審過三個月的東西,我也知道你要有執法,要有什麼,要有時間,這本事都知道,但是要趕快,要買一個工具"},{"start":5990.117,"end":6001.847,"text":"六月也可以 十月也可以 為什麼我們不可以提早發財好不好 本席幫你探討這件問題 要邀請去我家來實行預算簽認以後 我們就全面來實行好 謝謝好 我們請黃俊斌委員"},{"start":6021.874,"end":6025.337,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請我們的次長好 請馬次長委員早安次長早安 次長這樣我們那個防災法的修法相當的重要如果在修法的時候會有更多的細部討論但本席認為如果連國土都充滿危害的時候你再怎麼修法跟給預算都來不及"},{"start":6046.802,"end":6062.63,"text":"我們現在應該做的是看到危機就要處理而不是等到發生危險再來降低傷害那去年本席在內政委員會針對國土法、海拔法都有參與修法跟討論為的就是要給台灣這邊土地一個充滿生機的土地"},{"start":6063.49,"end":6088.808,"text":"但無奈的是不管怎麼修法哪怕我們給再多的預算去做國土復育跟保育都逃避不了我們的土地現在正走向癌症化我是在說民進黨執政之後我們推出了前瞻計畫開啟了大量公共工程的新建還有現在新清單等等這個政策的這個炒房的這個的房市之後台灣的硬體建案繁華了一段時間"},{"start":6089.989,"end":6104.36,"text":"常常聽到很多工地在缺人像這台找不到人甚至很多建築業者都希望能夠開放外籍移工但在這樣繁華的背後現在卻變成我們子孫要付出這樣龐大的代價"},{"start":6106.38,"end":6125.689,"text":"我們現在台灣西部有越來越多的糧田雲雲山谷像得了癌症一樣一步一步的死亡凶手是誰?凶手就是銀件工程產生的這些廢棄物跟剩餘的土石四處亂盜你挖開裡面來看有些空間挖開來看裡面有混泥土塊啦馬桶碎片啦石膏板啦"},{"start":6126.249,"end":6147.621,"text":"還有塑膠浪板還有電線種種這個雲間混合的這個廢棄物像去年啊台南市北門有十七公頃的公幼堆裡面多數一些是廢棄的餘溫跟鹽田它地主是誰地主是我們產生部的國有產屬因為它地主偏僻人間罕見所以就容易被亂盜這些雲間廢棄物那當我們這個土地"},{"start":6151.923,"end":6177.25,"text":"被這個燒土 黏土跟磚塊的廢棄物倒完之後它完全不適合耕作它等同於這塊土地判了死刑我想 難道你身為營建廢棄物的主管機關內政部都不知道這件事情嗎部長 本期要問的問題是說內政部我們現在統計全國這個掩埋型的土質廠截到去年11月底只剩下876萬立方的這個未納量請問這樣夠不夠"},{"start":6182.294,"end":6202.614,"text":"目前我們跟地方政府還有環境部在處理這個議題因為數字的話如果根據委員剛剛所提到的公共工程拆遷還有包括我們都更會產生很多的營建廢棄物那這些廢棄物我們的確是需要一個地方去做處理所以現在環境部跟國土署他分別有兩套系統專門處理這個營建廢土史"},{"start":6204.756,"end":6231.573,"text":"那我們現在也有在進行這個所謂的營建廢棄物的回收作業所以我們在業者的部分我們也有輔導他們去進行這個廢棄物的篩選以後某一些土方可以再利用我們會做再利用所以這個部分就是說從剛委員提到的土方的棄土的堆置跟我們土方的回收我們現在是兩方面同時在進行那這個部分我們會一起來努力市長那夠不夠目前以目前的這個未納量夠嗎"},{"start":6233.767,"end":6255.615,"text":"目前以我的了解目前是不足我們這個部分我們要去增加因為你去年你去年產出你去年統計啦產出需要填滿的土方就達到388萬388立方的立方公尺的估算齁這兩噸就沒了兩噸就沒了齁那再來你你現在營建廢棄物的混合物處理跟再利用也出現落差嘛"},{"start":6256.656,"end":6263.967,"text":"對,你中央許可52家業者每年可以分類回收再利用的是1192萬噸但是實際上進場的處理的只有163萬噸喔那比例不到一成四喔這要想這麼粗的東西才會回去"},{"start":6272.469,"end":6299.002,"text":"比例根本就不夠啊你進場跟實際上就差那麼多會直接消失的廢墟跑去哪裡就是亂到嘛那土市場的價值像我們土市場價值好像只是要開立假證明在賺錢啊就很多空殼的這個土市場他就是只開證明不收土石不然這些東西消失到哪裡去他不會憑空消失啊所以我們合法運作的土市場其實接近飽和那這樣子是是像市長一講的真的就不夠啊對不對那其實"},{"start":6301.528,"end":6317.278,"text":"有人說明明就不夠然後中央的數字都說夠都在亂講話這誰講的?不是本席講的這是第一線偵辦亂大化建設檢察官講的他說這供需明顯適合內政部要負最大責任這跟我講的"},{"start":6319.24,"end":6335.274,"text":"這個另外就是我們現任的前政務政委員吳哲成委員他也直指我們內政部這部分確實是失職他之前也要求說內政部要盤點我們合適的土地地點由地方來規劃更新設現在都快兩年了請問地點在哪邊"},{"start":6336.693,"end":6352.604,"text":"根委員報告 這個我會去查明年之後跟委員回報因為有一些細節在國土署那邊不過這個部分跟委員回報我們是會努力去處理這個供需差的問題因為這個問題不是最近這一兩年才有這是一個非常長期的問題"},{"start":6353.945,"end":6378.915,"text":"所以北京提出的這些事是我們就在這個相對重要是可是國土的問題是已經擺在眼前要解決我想沒有合法跟足夠的量能當然就讓業者這邊亂套了那不只如此所有的法規還有法規都亂了套從土是讓你開立假證明年單然後供34天繞場一圈做假紀錄這個各縣市的這個證明年單的格式也不統一容易被混變過關那地主"},{"start":6379.275,"end":6401.343,"text":"它也常常被人頭詐騙用來盜這些廢棄物我想種種的問題都看到中央已經明明都清楚這件事情要趕快來解決那我們中央如果還沒有訂定一定的這個土石方的這個檢測方法包括採樣的數量 雜質成分跟占比等等這個也困擾我們業界嘛所以這個部分你看連金財院都公佈了看不下去了金財院說"},{"start":6403.864,"end":6430.577,"text":"營建剩餘土方土石方的處理方案這個未接緊在行政規則缺乏法律授權導致強制力不足而且與廢棄物清理法等多重規範這個範疇重疊主管機關的權責不清廢棄物認定標準模糊能夠造成什麼造成我們執法困難所以這個部分內政部具體的修文什麼時候要做能夠什麼時候可以送過來審"},{"start":6432.529,"end":6455.309,"text":"這跟委員報告我們會後跟委員做說明因為這個部分有一些細節是跨部會要去處理的是那我們有法律上競合的問題那剛剛也跟委員報告就是說除了中央政府之外因為對土資廠部分的管理地方政府其實他有他一定的職長所以最了解土資廠的問題的大概是在地方政府第一線所以這部更應該是還整合這塊是這個我們會虛心檢討"},{"start":6457.831,"end":6471.677,"text":"謝謝市長市長本期需要提醒的是說修復修法跟預算都沒有關係這些問題不是今年才開始運氣廢棄物的不法利益龐大已經躍升為黑幫收入的前三名已經超越賭場"},{"start":6473.198,"end":6491.453,"text":"這個行政院也視為重大的經濟犯罪但是我們缺乏打炸、打酒駕的決心所以這部分我們要求的內政務必須要硬起來不然親臉情證、愛鄉圖就只會淪為口號那這部分再請政事跟部裡面來研究趕快來解決這個問題好 謝謝委員主席謝謝市長 謝謝主席好 我們請徐議政委員"},{"start":6506.059,"end":6509.562,"text":"謝謝主席我們請馬政次好 請馬次長委員早安次長好次長我想請教你一下就是隨著全球氣候變遷加劇那台灣面臨的現在的這個災害的形態"},{"start":6524.414,"end":6544.35,"text":"已經從過去的單一現在變成天然的天然的災害變成是複合型的災害比如說地震可能會引發土石流還有海嘯颱風會伴隨著潮雨還有可能會抱著這個大規模的停電但目前的防災教育還是以單一災害"},{"start":6545.49,"end":6563.162,"text":"的設計為主喔那已經沒有辦法面對這種像複合型的災害交錯的一個情況請次長看一下這個表格我們可以看一下2024年台灣的幾項重大自然災害引發的複合型的災害我們可以看到在2024年4月3號的花蓮地震"},{"start":6564.059,"end":6571.87,"text":"地震引起的有火災、山崩、道路中斷而且導致交通癱瘓那在2024年的7月23號到26號的凱米颱風也造成了淹水、土石流、強風還有造成大規模的停電"},{"start":6580.302,"end":6601.463,"text":"那2024年10月31號的康瑞颱風我們可以看到也強風豪雨也引發了淹水土石流還有大規模的停電那2024年10月初的山陀爾颱風也造成淹水土石流跟大規模的停電喔所以我們可以看到其實現在的災害大概都會是複合型的"},{"start":6601.883,"end":6617.45,"text":"那尤其是我們位處於這個太平洋的地震帶然後夏季也有颱風的威脅也算是這個複合型災害的高風險的一個區域那所以請問次次長我們對複合型災害的這個問題喔有做哪些事前準備事後又怎麼協助"},{"start":6619.351,"end":6646.773,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個復活性災害的問題那委員所提到的這幾個包括我們的災害事件跟整個趨勢這是完全是我們現在在關切的對象那目前在內政部的施政方向裡面我們有六個方向在面對委員剛剛所質詢的問題第一個就是說我們國民的普及的防災教育讓國民本身具有自主"},{"start":6647.373,"end":6675.548,"text":"互助互救以及這個防災準備的這樣一個能力那這個就是我們今天有提到這跟防災式的訓練有關這是第一個方向那第二個方向就是跟企業的合作因為我們現在有非常多在台灣的這些中小企業時間的關係是不是在六大方向能夠會後以書面可以可以好的謝謝表示你們現在已經有在正式這個複合型災害的一個防治的方法那另外"},{"start":6677.518,"end":6681.704,"text":"針對卓院長說我們現在是行動創新AI內閣請問次長有沒有將複合型的氣候事件的風險評估機制以及AI大數據的機制應用於預測複合型氣候的事件"},{"start":6695.492,"end":6715.908,"text":"跟委包我們目前有三個不同的方向在努力第一個是中央氣象署他們在對於颱風跟極端氣候的預測他們用AI模型那這個AI模型在包括國科會他跟氣象署也有合作那第二個是我們在做災害派遣的部分消防署現在也在進行災害派遣的AI化"},{"start":6716.548,"end":6735.915,"text":"那另外就是說我們在對於科技運用那尤其是有關於無人機的整個偵測解析我們的災區的部分我們目前也在做這樣的一個工作好 謝謝我想這個部分是大家非常關心也是我們必須要積極去面對的也希望能夠好好的運用現在的這個AI技術來去達到預測的效果"},{"start":6737.896,"end":6752.562,"text":"那另外就是IPCC在2012年的時候就已經警告複合氣候的事件會因地球的暖化的影響會逐年增加那請問一下次長台灣是否有完整的地方性的評估報告而且制定具體的減災對策"},{"start":6754.568,"end":6783.147,"text":"跟委員報告目前在減災的對策上面我們有災害防救白皮書跟災害防救基本計畫裡面有訂定減災目標那各個減災目標必須對應到中央跟地方政府不同的預算科目所以這個是一個蠻複雜的問題不過目標是有的但是比較大的問題就是說因為氣候變遷的速度跟我們訂定目標當時所預估的可能會有一些落差所以這部分我們每年在做滾動式檢討"},{"start":6784.928,"end":6792.935,"text":"隨時都應該做滾動式的檢討來去因應現在的一個狀況那另外我想請教一下環境部我們的陳副署長請陳副署長陳副署長好我想請教一下環境部針對氣候變遷基金是否有益助到防災領域還是仍然停留在減碳的政策"},{"start":6813.977,"end":6832.759,"text":"報告委員因為我是化學署的副署長是那氣候基金的部分是我們有氣候署那今天沒有派氣候署代表來那是不是容我把問題帶回去那是不是會後能夠把相關的這個有關氣候變遷基金我剛提到這個問題喔能夠到辦公室來說明一下好嗎好的"},{"start":6833.939,"end":6850.925,"text":"那另外在最後再請教次長請問一下次長我們現在您同不同意將強化學校的防災教育從小針對我們的這個防災教育進入到我們的課程將富爾市災害應變也納入我們的課程當中嗎"},{"start":6851.525,"end":6866.816,"text":"報告委員非常贊同謝謝那目前有沒有這樣的計畫跟委員報告目前在學校的端的防災教育部有三個單位在負責一個是教育部的資科師一個是教育部的校安中心那另外一個是教育部的國教署他們都有各自的計畫在進行好"},{"start":6867.697,"end":6891.876,"text":"希望說他們能夠整合一下把這個這個課程能夠整合在一起跟我們內政部都有合作OK好謝謝陳副長您可以先回座是然後另外再請教一下就是昨天監察院提案糾正行政院跟國土署就是近年來營建剩餘的土石方遭非法棄置的事件屢見不鮮那當然這中間還有很多不肖的土石的資源堆積廠已合法"},{"start":6892.276,"end":6919.186,"text":"掩護非法 結合開發業者跟回田業者 棄運業者土石土地仲介等上下游串聯的方式形成不法的產業鏈那甚至有的還會把營建剩餘的土石跟這些廢棄物直接從工地運到農地或者是漁溫來去進行非法掩埋那嚴重影響公共安全跟國土的完整那請問次長針對複合型災害發生之後出現大量的這種營建廢棄物"},{"start":6920.726,"end":6947.166,"text":"或者是說非法的這種營建剩餘的土方請問目前是怎麼樣子的一個處置各位報告我們在針對災害後的這些所謂的廢棄物的部分我們跟環境部之間我們有做這個廢棄物的堆置跟回收這樣的一個機制那如同剛剛委員所詢問的回收機制的部分我們目前要輔導業者去強化他們的這個容量"},{"start":6947.826,"end":6955.977,"text":"那這裡要搭配平時我們的這個營建廢棄物的量跟災時我們會多增加出來的量去做這樣的一個總體的一個評估"},{"start":6958.322,"end":6983.611,"text":"那所以總體評估完之後呢我們跟委員報告就目前我們在營建廢棄物的產量跟營建廢棄物的處理量的部分這個部分我們也要再檢討因為這中間的確是有一個落差那這個部分我想既然監察院都特別提出修正了這個部分我想我們要積極的去面對處理這樣的一個問題那接下來我想請教一下那個消防署那個"},{"start":6985.185,"end":7003.756,"text":"我們的蕭署長好就是有關台中星光三月氣爆的事件造成5死38傷那這個當時是應該是因為在當時要裝潢的時候有切割天然氣的管線而造成這樣的一個災害那請問一下就是像這樣子的這一次在這個大型的商場裡面發生這樣的事情"},{"start":7006.638,"end":7009.08,"text":"那我有沒有去研擬過因為我們現在可能針對這個我們的瓦斯感應器並沒有要求全面裝設就針對在這個有關如果設置飲食空間的場所並沒有全面設置那請問未來"},{"start":7020.569,"end":7040.115,"text":"是不是會要求我們這有飲食空間的這些營業場所要全面設置瓦斯感測器呢這個案子是有設置只不過施工過程當中他沒有進行施工的管理計畫跟申報那施工過程當中也把檢報設備這邊關閉所以事後所以是等於是施工人員操作的問題施工跟整個系統關閉的問題"},{"start":7045.177,"end":7066.02,"text":"所以他那個樓層已經有裝設瓦斯感測器那目前我們有沒有要求有這樣子的這個大型商場的有設飲食空間的這些業者要求他們都要設置瓦斯感測器我們目前是針對地下建築場所這個有要求那委員關係這個部分我們再跟國度署的法規"},{"start":7066.26,"end":7085.007,"text":"因為以前可能美食街會設在地下室可是現在都不是現在各個樓層可能都有所以針對這個部分是不是能夠我覺得應該要把這個在各個有關只要有設置美食街的都應該要裝設瓦斯感測器用天然氣或者液化鏽氣的部分我們來檢討好不好 是不是那麻煩一下這個署長這個會後能夠馬上跟我們的國處所以要請次長能夠來好好的來去這個監督這樣子的一個事情我覺得"},{"start":7092.591,"end":7102.799,"text":"在這個災害竟然已經發生了但是我覺得未來不能再有這樣子的災害好嗎好謝謝好謝謝那我們請楊瓊英委員主席楊瓊英發言想邀請次長好請馬次長委員早安"},{"start":7122.01,"end":7122.152,"text":"智囊"},{"start":7124.618,"end":7147.686,"text":"我們內政部作為國內的防災體系這個核心主管機關單位要負責整合各級政府的資源提升應變能力來降低整個極端氣候所帶來的災害我們看到最近地球暖化 氣候暖化的問題不管是在強降雨"},{"start":7152.228,"end":7176.299,"text":"還有颱風、土石流、地震這些災害也暴露出有很多是目前我們的政府的機制裡頭還有提升的空間比如說在我們整個資訊傳遞的延遲或者是應變資源不足或者是最重要的整個跨部會的協調困難"},{"start":7179.201,"end":7196.003,"text":"導致不管是在搶救或者在安置方面有這個問題產生那所以以2月6號花蓮的地震為例就有部分的受災戶他們會反映說這個臨時安置的措施不夠完善"},{"start":7196.784,"end":7218.644,"text":"那在這樣的一個情況之下他們長期也沒有辦法去找到合適的替代住所所以本席要請教次長也就是說在是不是我們可以救以往我們所碰到的當然搶災或者是救災或者是安置所有的人員都很辛苦"},{"start":7219.565,"end":7241.587,"text":"但是如果我們有一個更好的明確的機制讓SOP流程讓它尤其在整個跨部會可以更明確更快速那絕對可以對於受災戶它是一個幫助或者是對地方的一個重建以及搶救絕對有很大的幫助所以本期要請教市長我們要怎麼樣就"},{"start":7243.869,"end":7270.619,"text":"精進的方式能夠迅速的到位然後加強整個跨部會的一個協調來提升這個效能出來請教市長跟委員報告我們在災防法裡面我們有各部會的分工那其他的法規我們也有分工剛剛委員所提示到的有關於收容安置替代住所部分其實過去很長一段時間內政部因為當時主管社會司"},{"start":7271.579,"end":7291.168,"text":"所以我們是設政單位來負責這樣的一個松永安置的作業那目前這個業務移撥到衛生福利部那我們還是跟衛生福利部有合作對這個民眾的災後的松永安置我們有這個分工那內政部主要的分工是在事前我們會協助做志工的培訓還有做這個"},{"start":7293.129,"end":7310.127,"text":"這個收容安置場所跟地方政府合作去做盤點所以比如說委員剛剛提到花蓮的盛災事實上每一年我們跟花蓮縣政府都會對它的收容避難場所去做盤點那盤點之後這個數量跟它真正發生災害之後所需要的這個數量可能會有落差"},{"start":7310.848,"end":7328.145,"text":"那這個落差我們就會請包括慈濟基金會還有當地的像基督教界賽總會的民間團體去支援所以民眾他在當地如果有這樣一個需求的話地方政府跟我們的民間團體都會去做配合市長你現在談到這裡就是非常的重要"},{"start":7328.846,"end":7342.493,"text":"像我們民間團體慈濟全部志工全部出動基督教全部出動但是在我們的總指揮裡頭就是我們隨時要管控這個機制因為現在軟化的問題有時候"},{"start":7345.615,"end":7369.692,"text":"我們沒想到會產生這樣的樣態還好有民間的團體隨時協助我們所以我們要很感謝所以因此政府的自己的部分的一個跨部會我們從我們自己內政部到現在衛福部這樣子的一個機制在整個聯繫上面必須還有提升的精進的一個空間要隨時去做調整跟訊息溝通"},{"start":7373.855,"end":7396.044,"text":"本席認為這個是非常重要當然我再一次的強調我們非常的感謝民間的團體所以我經常說的政府的力量有限民間的力量無窮我們必須好好的來謝謝他們一起加油那接下來本席給您一個功課也就是本席非常重視我們長者的租屋的議題今天您來了我也給你提到這個問題"},{"start":7397.344,"end":7419.524,"text":"台灣在今年邁入了我們的高齡社會就是大家都眾所皆知但是我們迎接高齡者的住的一個選擇跟品質卻是非常的殘酷我們根據了衛福部的顯示資料裡頭65歲以上租屋的高齡者當中有23%他是面臨著租屋有困難"},{"start":7420.245,"end":7436.725,"text":"租屋有困難像台中市我們也是民間的基金會出來協助那所以呢本席認為說民間的有很多的基金會像崔媽媽基金會他們也顯示只有百分之九的房東他願意要租給弱勢的這個族群"},{"start":7439.048,"end":7459.517,"text":"那其中高齡長輩只佔了百分之五所以在這樣的一個情況之下我們可以看到我們在推動整個社會住宅當然數量是有限的但是獨居老人的身份來申請是非常的不容易"},{"start":7460.137,"end":7476.379,"text":"因為你的數量有限他要申請非常的不容易所以本席跟次長討論的也就是說我們內政部國營事業單位民間開始有在投入有在投入高齡載的一個推動但是引發友善住宅"},{"start":7476.88,"end":7506.036,"text":"它不只是只有環境所以本席今天要跟你討論它不只是只有環境它更應該有伴隨的這個服務獨居老人這個伴隨是非常非常的重要所以本席想請教你們怎麼如何的去跨部會的來協調解決我們整個引髮族獨居租不到屋的這個困境讓這些長輩能夠好好的來晚年生活請教"},{"start":7506.633,"end":7521.519,"text":"跟委員報告主要的我們目前在租屋市場因為它畢竟是一個自由市場所以我們會透過我們公營的部分我們包括社宅如果有一部分我們可以推動輕盈共居的這個部分我們會推動"},{"start":7522.319,"end":7546.344,"text":"那另外就是說我們跟衛福部之間它的長照的體系這個部分去做整合所以它是一個跨部會要去透過包括住宅政策跟社福政策要去合作的一個工作所以剛剛我也提到這是給我的功課所以我們是不是可以把這功課帶回去然後我們跨部會我們去做一些方案上面的一個討論因為社會住宅在您這邊"},{"start":7547.404,"end":7573.378,"text":"本席非常的希望內政部應該要去做跨部會的一個協調讓這些長輩真正的租的到屋好好的晚年生活那你去做整合你大概多久時間可以跟本席呢 方案跟委員報告我們是不是可以在一個月之內我們先跟衛福部討論還有我們自己內政部內部然後跟委員做一個熟練的回報好 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝楊純英委員我們請吳錦銘委員"},{"start":7587.196,"end":7593.237,"text":"好 出席我們議會同仁 請我們的馬次長以及我們消防署署長委員長安"},{"start":7594.502,"end":7620.042,"text":"好 早 處長 針對我們今天我們的那個災害防治法因為我現在要說 本省和你共同來檢討因為怎樣呢 很多我們的重大事故發生你像高雄以前的地下的氣爆你看它的管線是全國裡面是比例最高"},{"start":7620.702,"end":7649.922,"text":"但是你管線你要怎樣去互查這些管線未來不要再有同樣的事情發生你說像我們前一陣子台中的三月百貨它也是造成一個爆炸的事件那最終我們的專業的信念專業的培育本身在我們過去我的思想在要求我們消防署把我們內政部"},{"start":7650.542,"end":7678.955,"text":"要來推動我們的消防學校消防學校的重要性是什麼因為消防學校我們那麼多的消防人員尤其咧我們附帶我們的義消人員黃仙人員因為還有我們的志工人員你那麼多的團體大家都配屬在我們的消防體系裡面但是你遇到一個問題就是我們沒有一間"},{"start":7679.69,"end":7686.336,"text":"很傳統的學校你如果說我們的消防學校"},{"start":7688.346,"end":7706.591,"text":"不管他的化學用品 不管說在災害的勘察不管說淪落的重大事故 例如說地震造成的危害我們種種的天然災害也好 以及我們會遇到的面臨的問題都可以說是一種完善的設備來培育"},{"start":7712.403,"end":7732.484,"text":"我們未來這些人才不管在消防檢查也好才會更加的落實讓我們可以說遇到淪陷的災害發生大家都能有一個非常完善的應變能力是不是說在我們的消防學校這個部分我們要如何共同來研究共同來推動我認為這是最正確的"},{"start":7735.441,"end":7738.005,"text":"我們目前消防署的訓練中心是全世界第三大"},{"start":7752.825,"end":7781.536,"text":"但是我們的編制只有36位同仁所以表示說我們的場地的訓練是夠但是我們的這個包括行政教官的人力我們還需要大幅度的一個增加那這部分可能也需要大院跟行政院一起來支持那關於剛剛委員所垂詢的消防學校那它的未來我們在訓練中心是不是能夠轉型那它的細節我是不是可以請署長來做回應"},{"start":7782.116,"end":7809.629,"text":"好的,來,處長,我先向你報告因為我們的消防,消防他們都寄託在我們的警察學校還有我們的警官學校但是,因為他們的專業性質跟我們又不一樣因為我們要面臨的有水庫車、化學車一些大型的演練場所所以說,在這時候真的是急迫性來,請署長來"},{"start":7812.461,"end":7831.214,"text":"感謝委員一直關心我們消防學校的進度那給委員報告說某些的訓練就是正級班特考班那某些正級班的學生本來理論上是兩年在警專事實上現在今年開始已經在一年在訓練中心所以幾乎有一大半的時間在訓練中心做這方面的培訓"},{"start":7832.214,"end":7854.82,"text":"這些能量跟特卡班的能量已經達到一次所以首先要為我們做報告那警專警大的學生大概也會朝這個方向來做努力但是要不成立消防學校之前在學校養成教育這些學生讓他的能量事實上已經達到我們要成為消防人員的這個基本的救災能量這個首先跟委員報告這是第一個階段"},{"start":7855.68,"end":7879.875,"text":"那第二階段就是這樣一個配合以後因為警專有消防安全科不是說警專就沒有消防安全科有消防安全科警大有消防系那系跟科這邊我們怎麼樣跟他做合作後面是不是能夠朝向整個制度朝向消防學校的發展這個就是我們正在規劃就怎麼一步一步達到"},{"start":7881.596,"end":7908.17,"text":"委員期待的這個目標當然最終的目標是達到一個專責的消防學校那在消防署訓練中心的目前規模設備包括今年6月的時候我們要擴大第二階段完工業再啟用到時候我們特別邀請召委跟委員能夠歷年到訓練中心來跟我們知道那時候的規模跟訓練跟教室跟訓練場這又不一樣的一個情形大概已經朝向這個委員期待的目標來進行謝謝"},{"start":7909.758,"end":7936.956,"text":"署長剛剛我們的次長所講我們是全世界第三大我們的人員才三十幾個那你說你在警專學校也好警大學校也好在那邊培訓你人員行政人員那麼少專業人員你一些教官教官也那麼少你要怎樣去培育我們這些優秀的消防人員然後我們還有義消"},{"start":7939.196,"end":7945.33,"text":"還有我們黃仙還有我們的志光所以你看現在連那個搜救隊"},{"start":7947.484,"end":7972.083,"text":"會歸類在我們消防署裡面在各縣市的消防局你看這麼多的民間團體他們要有一個非常適合的場地來做訓練啊你一個你消防學校你一成立當然你人員經費你才會充裕啊不然你三十幾個你光是世界第三大那沒有用啊對不對"},{"start":7973.024,"end":7996.28,"text":"是感謝委員在還沒到位之前其實縣市真的很幫忙就縣市我們訓練縣市的教官來當成我們訓練中心的教官這個目前已經在做所以目前這麼多的訓練量就是縣市的在此同仁我們培養成教官以後一方面他來訓練中心支援一方面他回到縣市以後也可以把這個技術在縣市來擴大來作業"},{"start":8003.244,"end":8032.155,"text":"真的一個學校出來然後整個有憲政人力教官教授這方面人力因為如果說真的要成立消防學校絕對跟警專的消防科跟警大的消防系這個絕對要一起考量這個變成機關間的互動跟組織編制的一個重新調整我們大概有初步的一個構想跟規劃我們再找時間跟委員報告一下我們再來朝這個方向來努力好的 署長我們都期待啦"},{"start":8032.755,"end":8042.881,"text":"不要說每次問都是我們來規劃但是我們還是要有一個時辰因為這是我們的必要性好不好好 謝謝委員好 謝謝鄭天才 鄭天才 鄭天才委員不在我們請黃婕委員"},{"start":8062.517,"end":8065.298,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請馬次長好 請馬次長委員早安好 次長早 今天其實大家在討論這個災防法那我認為高雄其實在扮演非常重要的角色是因為高雄的11年前的氣爆案之後整個高雄都不斷地在討論說這個工業管線的問題到底要怎麼解決"},{"start":8089.162,"end":8105.527,"text":"那其實我也知道說這幾年內政部非常努力在推防災事的培訓嘛還有另外一個是任性社區的標章所以我還是先想要請教一下目前內政部的進度我知道說目前這個任性社區你們推的標章啊我們高雄總共有拿到19個"},{"start":8106.747,"end":8112.754,"text":"那當然我也認為說還要不斷的努力推廣才行因為這個對於高雄來說非常重要尤其是我剛剛講的工業管線的部分那我也要講啊其實過去幾年我在高雄也不斷的倡議說這個大社工業區的降編案到現在都還卡關當中"},{"start":8125.169,"end":8137.736,"text":"那卡關到現在廠區還沒有遷走會造成什麼影響呢就是其實我們還是有非常多的工業管線是經過市區的也經過我的選區那甚至我盤點了一下這些工業管線經過市區總共會經過160個里"},{"start":8142.319,"end":8148.43,"text":"也就是說這一些工業管線經過的里周遭的里就有160個那這160個里我去對了一下跟目前19個拿到任性社區的標章的總共只有兩個"},{"start":8156.71,"end":8170.297,"text":"周邊的里拿到任性社區的標章什麼意思呢就是我們認為任性社區很重要就是你們要有很有很了解這個防災相關的一些基本的知識那也在面對這些風險的時候基本上可以作為一個任性社區來應對這樣的災害可是當我去比對之後發現說160個裡面拿到任性社區的標章的竟然只有兩個"},{"start":8180.723,"end":8194.242,"text":"那是不是應該要努力的再讓這一些周邊的離別不管是防災的演練然後努力的多培育這一些防災市然後最後可以多拿到這些任性社區呢"},{"start":8196.121,"end":8217.084,"text":"跟委員報告我們推動韌性社區是從2023年開始那因為它有一個過程喔那每一個過程大概都要花兩年的時間從一星到三星那讓它能夠建構一個自主委運的能力那以目前委員剛剛所提到的的確是一個我們要去檢討的問題就是說以大社工業區做例子"},{"start":8217.965,"end":8244.507,"text":"這樣的一個具有高度的危險性的一個空間我們在它周遭的社區應該要去做比較多的輔導跟任性社區的推動這部分我們去做檢討好 謝謝次長的承諾因為我相信次長也非常關心過去我們高雄的這些災害風險的情形那再來要繼續請教這個其實工業管線是不是今天經濟部也有請我們產業管理局的副局長"},{"start":8246.277,"end":8253.701,"text":"因為這個我剛剛想要延續這個工業管線的部分跟經濟部就非常有關係因為我知道說其實經濟部也有在做工業管線的社區防災演練嘛那可是就我所知就是每次參加的人員就其實是很難傳承跟維繫的也就是說目前這個社區的演練的成效到底如何其實不得而知然後強度跟次數我也認為非常不夠"},{"start":8272.851,"end":8301.431,"text":"因為我認為高雄市非常需要作為一個韌性城市的一個地方那在這樣的基礎之下我不知道說經濟部對於高雄的這些照顧到底到哪裡了那目前就我所知啦尤其是這些防災演練是你們辦的嘛但其實你們也跟地方的防災是沒有任何的連結也就是說你們防災演練沒有邀他們參與然後你們在處理工業管線的問題的時候其實我們地方的防災是"},{"start":8302.532,"end":8327.365,"text":"跟你們沒有任何的關係耶是這樣子嗎謝謝委員的槌尋跟委員報告其實針對我們目前相關的工業管線部分的工業區其實我們都有所謂的區域聯防的概念那實際上來講我們都會要求業者他必須要去提供相關的維管的計畫還有他一些演練那當然我們也會會同地方政府做一些查核還有就是配合地方來做所謂的緊急應變的這些相關的演練"},{"start":8330.146,"end":8347.525,"text":"那我想委員剛剛您所垂詢關心的那我們確實都有在努力在做那如果說委員希望我們有更進一步的一個資訊我們再提供給委員讓您做一些我們的指導好謝謝這個副局長喔這就是我想要講的因為就我所知目前房災市比較算是內政部底下隸屬的那"},{"start":8349.267,"end":8368.69,"text":"那變得說在我們在防防裡面就只有風災火災然後爆炸然後火山災害是屬於內政部管理的那可是裡面零零種種22種的災害類型是不是其他的類型就沒有辦法讓我們去由這個防災市來做第一線社區的聯防跟協助呢"},{"start":8369.918,"end":8383.896,"text":"我想有關於整個防災事後續的整個規劃可能我們就會來遵循就是未來內政部他所奠定相關的規範那如果有需要我們要納入我們的整個工業管線的防災計畫的話我們也會來做配合來做辦理"},{"start":8384.597,"end":8405.575,"text":"好這就是我希望因為今天既然兩個部會都在這裡就是其實啊在我們這裡面有隸屬7個部會22種災害類型那也就是說部會很多災害類型很多種但是最後防災是能夠協助到的社區的部分都只有我剛剛說的這幾種災害類型那我會覺得很可惜就以高雄來說如果就是這些工業管線一時之間有一些氣體的洩漏"},{"start":8409.659,"end":8431.507,"text":"那一時之間社區遇到災害類型是這邊說的例如說包括說如果是森林火災或是動植物的災難或是路上交通的事故化學物質或者是任何像是防疫這個生物病人的災害這些其他類型的災害發生的時候防災是到底可以起什麼作用這是我好奇的那是不是這部分也請次長來補充"},{"start":8435.246,"end":8455.703,"text":"好謝謝委員的問題我想防災式的訓練我們基本上是採取一個全災型的訓練並沒有針對特定的災害然後只訓練某些災害類型那麼我們在22種災害裡面其實防災式的訓練是希望他們能夠自救跟互助所以它不是一個非常的"},{"start":8456.423,"end":8481.463,"text":"高度專業的這樣的一個培訓那剛剛委員所提到的內政部主管的災害之外比如說我們的經濟部主管的水災跟農業部所主管的土石流我們都有防災室的參與他們也會在社區的層級去參與這些活動那這些委員所垂詢的關於工業管線災害的部分我們在社區的培訓裡面我們會培訓防災室對於察覺危險"},{"start":8483.064,"end":8507.543,"text":"這件事情還有疏散這件事情我們會培訓他們但如果要提到實際上去救災的話那就變成是專業部門的事所以我們會對這個事情會去做一個區隔好 謝謝次長的補充那其實我也很肯定內政部啦因為其實這兩年推動這個防災式啊我們地方上反應也蠻好的那包括里長都帶頭找里民去上課然後取得這個訓練然後現在我們高雄就已經有3664位了"},{"start":8509.605,"end":8521.614,"text":"那我也希望持續的努力推廣 然後擴大到社區讓社區成為韌性的社區好 謝謝次長謝謝委員好 那我們請徐欣穎委員"},{"start":8537.489,"end":8544.036,"text":"好 謝謝主席 本席有請消防署蕭署長好 請署長署長好 本席請教 政府應該作為我們全國消防地修的後盾這句話您認同嗎我們現在努力對 認同嗎我們現在努力 是"},{"start":8561.178,"end":8564.6,"text":"政府應該作為消防弟兄的後盾這句話您認同嗎主席可不可以停一下時間"},{"start":8587.1,"end":8611.326,"text":"這個很誇張耶我是請教您您認同嗎認同而且要繼續努力啊對啊很好啊那你從頭到尾不講認同兩個字我說我再問一次我針對問題好不好是政府應該作為消防弟兄的後盾這句話您認同嗎我們認同認同嘛好那這個我們"},{"start":8612.731,"end":8631.718,"text":"有看到有些地方的消防局他可能有為了整合整個消防員長時間救災照護他可能有所謂的後勤照護車或者是生命真相監測系統"},{"start":8633.519,"end":8659.835,"text":"像這類的後勤照顧系統對於消防人員的執勤品質請問您認為是不是更有保障我們的後勤照顧已經列入預算就問題問嘛我的問題是您是不是覺得這樣子對我們消防弟兄救災的弟兄們更有保障當然更有保障當然更有保障你認同嗎然後接著你可以講你剛剛想要講的"},{"start":8660.776,"end":8685.081,"text":"好感謝我們對於關切委員關心的後勤照護車事實上已經在桃園市有先試辦過那效果不錯那現在已經在各縣市在後續的總統計劃就院裡面計劃核定以後那我們經費核定以後我們就是全國應該會每個縣市至少會有一部後勤照護車所以你們有在規劃已經在列入計劃了是"},{"start":8686.562,"end":8697.014,"text":"對 所以像去年我們好像看到整個消防署我們中央政府也很重視嘛消防弟兄的安危還有各方面的需求編了兩百六十幾億 對不對"},{"start":8698.462,"end":8724.591,"text":"这是未来五年的经费对对对去年编然后有200万所以我们有为消防弟兄在规划这个部分我们继续努力所以在去年预算我们在这个讨论预算的时候本席有提案这一块嘛那我们本来提案是冻结2000万但是后来我们在预算审查的时候11位委员针对我们消防署的预算43亿我们捅动700万"},{"start":8726.592,"end":8743.93,"text":"這個大概是千分之1.6%凍結千分之1.6%這點您應該認同吧我們等於凍結如果大家好好的做為我們消防弟兄努力我們是不是您這個規劃好提來是不是就可以解凍"},{"start":8744.611,"end":8749.074,"text":"我們主要非常肯定我們消防署跟各地消防局對我們消防弟兄的安危各方面我們都在努力"},{"start":8767.826,"end":8778.575,"text":"對署長這邊我們也肯定所以剛剛本席的問題其實只是這個問題您只要就問題回答就可以好謝謝請你回座主席本席想請馬次長好請馬次長"},{"start":8785.307,"end":8808.266,"text":"委員好市長請問您認不認同防災勝於救災認同對嘛所以我們防災的這個作為很多是我們政府要去推動的沒有錯吧沒錯那現在我們很多老舊住宅的更新跟維護非常的重要但是我們整個的進度是非常緩慢的您知道這一塊嗎"},{"start":8809.607,"end":8836.704,"text":"報委員我們了解目前在危老案的一個從前進度那的確有一部分是需要再努力是不是很落後報委員因為它有很多的社會條件跟環境條件要配合譬如什麼社會條件因為我們在推動危老耐震能力的評估的時候這個包括屋主還有我們在這個地方政府的部分都要一起來努力不然的話只有中央來推動是不夠的"},{"start":8838.092,"end":8854.983,"text":"對 所以要帶動嘛那請問你們有掌握全國建築物耐震安檢暨輔導重建補強計畫它整個 這個計畫中央提出來但是你們都沒有了解 都沒有逐年的統計現在你有統計數字嗎"},{"start":8856.465,"end":8868.723,"text":"包委員我手上的數字是到二月底我們危老的耐震人力評估案件我們是完成了一萬九千七百五十五件不是危老的耐震是全國建築物耐震安檢輔導重建計畫整個的進度"},{"start":8873.258,"end":8894.996,"text":"年度目標值跟你完成的進度你們完全沒有而且統計數字只到110年那本席跟這個相關單位所知的時候跟我們說這個要再去問地方政府你看現在114年了你中央只掌握到110年"},{"start":8896.437,"end":8911.992,"text":"所以財政收支劃分法很多錢給地方是對的嘛你中央都沒有作為沒有做事好 再來因為時間的關係我們希望你們盡快的去把這一些進度你們要掌握好"},{"start":8915.713,"end":8939.761,"text":"領導者不要只有下令在做政治的對立真正要做率領所有的公務員真的要去實際的為我們民眾的需求來做剛剛您有講到不管是耐震或者是我們做一些防護可是更重要的有很多的老舊住宅他需要更新這一塊您了解吧"},{"start":8940.703,"end":8966.871,"text":"我們這邊超過30年屋齡的戶數全國有多少戶 您知道嗎500萬戶那全台住宅老化情況越來越嚴峻每兩戶就有一戶超過30年的屋齡所以全台屋齡超過50年的有100萬戶所以中央有沒有考慮剛剛您有講有很多的條件那我們就我們所知其實"},{"start":8968.792,"end":8993.482,"text":"可能要願意來做的不管是民間或者是當事者就是住戶那有一些誘因所以政府有沒有在研擬譬如說讓建商他有這個誘因來幫這些50年以上汙齡的來幫他們來更新就可能在容積率上的獎勵各方面這一塊有沒有"},{"start":8994.702,"end":9018.287,"text":"我們除了重建以外我們目前有一個方案是在協助這些比較老的建築物去做所謂的整修那整修之後它不會去動到它原來的容積率整修也好給它檢測各方面檢測完就知道要怎麼整修但是有一些它整修已經不足以負荷了它可能"},{"start":9019.427,"end":9048.004,"text":"現在我們的地震次數越來越頻繁您不否認吧還有強度也越來越大其實這種天災地變不是我們能夠預期或是我們能夠制止的但是我們能做好的就是防災那所以有50年以上的房子有100萬戶所以我們還是得要有一些相關的法規這些法規那來讓它能夠盡快的50年以上的屋齡的"},{"start":9048.945,"end":9067.976,"text":"如果該更新的就要更新所以本席問的是那你這個更新最大就沒有誘因那你如果能夠有一些這個規範出來那有誘因是不是可以讓建商他也願意去去負荷然後當事人他覺得OK我租金補貼有人而且"},{"start":9068.576,"end":9094.284,"text":"我們這個更新了以後譬如說我去哪裡租房子兩三年接著我就可以有一個新的新的這個住家這個是政府要來做要來推動的啊這一塊到底目前有沒有我們每個縣市的進度我們是不是容後我們跟委員報告進度剛剛委員提到數字我們有數字現在全國現在中央在帶領我的重點是中央在帶領你這個誘因出來了沒"},{"start":9096.485,"end":9105.68,"text":"我們有這個整個配套的措施因為講起來蠻複雜的那我現在就問你 你的獎勵措施是什麼你有鼓勵民間來參與嗎這個部分都有"},{"start":9111.279,"end":9129.041,"text":"簡單講都有都有有有對容積獎率稅都有但是你的容積獎率讓民間願意做嗎他覺得這也沒有誘因啊所以這一塊我要你你有沒有瞭解這個現況他到底這個我們這個我們要去分析民間可不可以做這才是重點啊有沒有"},{"start":9129.781,"end":9150.515,"text":"民間一定可以做但是不是所有的民間都可以做有些他有他不同的條件所以我們要看他的位置就這個東西我們定出來的是全國性的規範今天你不能這樣講因為危險的他沒有分他的位置他危險自成以來就倒了然後就很慘所以這一塊你們要去想啊"},{"start":9151.596,"end":9174.891,"text":"那有些地方他民間不能做那一定是有困難在那政府不介入我跟你講民眾就是在那裡真的天災地變來他們就很辛苦了解甚至很痛苦啊我們全台全台灣大家都不忍看到這個情況是不是可以加速進行好沒問題我們內政部很努力很努力 議院內讓本席了解一下你們的進度 好不好好的 好 謝謝委員好"},{"start":9182.459,"end":9198.968,"text":"好 丁學忠 丁學忠 丁學忠委員不在鄭振淺 鄭振淺 鄭振淺委員不在鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌 鍾嘉斌委員不在高津素梅 高津素梅 高津素梅委員不在邱志偉 邱志偉 邱志偉委員不在蘇清泉 蘇清泉 蘇清泉委員不在"},{"start":9205.322,"end":9226.364,"text":"好 那登記發言委員除不在場者外 其餘均與發言完畢 詢答結束委員蘇巧慧 丁學忠 高津素美 所提書面質詢列入紀錄 刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分 請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會"},{"start":9229.743,"end":9256.596,"text":"報告委員會那我們現在請宣讀討論事項所有條文第三條委員賴瑞榮等16人提案委員謝依鳳等17人提案將第一項第三款知行政院農業委員會修正為農業部第五款知行政院環境保護署修正為環境部第七款知行政院原子能委員會修正為核能安全委員會其餘同現行條文"},{"start":9258.197,"end":9279.03,"text":"第十九条委员赖瑞龙等16人提案增订第三项第四项工业管线灾害防救业务计划由行政院审议后送立法院备查工业管线之运作安全维护管理监督及灾害防救等事项应以专法定之专法未公布施行前应遵守现行相关法令之规定其余同现行条文"},{"start":9279.87,"end":9299.843,"text":"第二十二条委员丁学忠等十六人提案将第一项第二款修正为灾害防救教育训练观念宣导及专业知识培养其余同现行条文第四十八条委员谢一凤等十六人提案将第二项后段执行政院农业委员会修正为农业部其余同现行条文宣读完毕"},{"start":9303.154,"end":9311.156,"text":"好 我們討論事項所列議案我們另定期繼續審查本次會議到此結束 先來散會"},{"start":9350.949,"end":9351.39,"text":"謝謝大家。"},{"start":9378.792,"end":9380.934,"text":"就是要那個...那個...那個...那個...那個...那個...那個..."},{"start":9393.972,"end":9394.633,"text":"謝謝觀看,下次見"}]}},{"id":"159339","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159339","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8fa89568c0d069699405788fab8fe149e8962b2f3400241f69616e932440b99205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:22:29 - 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恆春半島四個鄉鎮今天來了我們劉史金恆春鎮鎮長那他也親自來那我們在那邊做了多次的民調"},{"start":28.178,"end":46.544,"text":"贊成河山研議的都高達75%以上說好幾次喔然後他們鄉鎮長出來接受那個專訪也都持正面的態度我們河山廠兩部機組一年的發電量差不多157億度到160億度"},{"start":50.97,"end":76.932,"text":"那每一度賣出來是3塊2左右那每一度的成本是0.8、0.9所以沒來沒去就退台電一年賺3、4百億了啊你給他關起來,你賣錢就發電然後啦,每一年跟立法院要錢,已經要了3000億電還是漲價漲4次,我就一直搞不懂"},{"start":78.263,"end":89.802,"text":"為什麼一直要養這些再生業者然後他說成本越來越低現在一度還是四塊多五塊多六塊多不是越來越低"},{"start":91.808,"end":110.395,"text":"馬英九8年再生能源的比例只有佔5%不到蔡英文8年我們再生能源的比例也是差不多8%所以再生能源怎麼弄 怎麼加就是有它的極限"},{"start":111.604,"end":137.436,"text":"要到十幾%是不可能所以你的能源配比當然是核能發電是相當基礎電力以前三座核能電廠不很順嗎核三廠有發現過公安事件嗎每年的評比都是世界前五名那個小公安事件沒有核能本身的問題爐子沒有問題啦"},{"start":139.69,"end":162.961,"text":"都是那些配電設備或颱風來我屏東人我又不在關心屏東 我不笑然後一天到晚用石化 最高八十幾%都是用石化清達火力發電廠 大陵火力發電廠等等等等我們屏東有夠衰啦 站不會保衰中南山脈的高度一直往下就是延伸到仿寮再往下"},{"start":164.827,"end":191.724,"text":"整個所有的空屋都到太武、潮州、來義那邊就卡在那裡每天都是紙包一年365天將近300天是紙包所以我們那邊的人就要承受這些PM2.5、PM10、肺腺癌、心血管疾病、不孕症什麼都來了我們在那邊我就常常在想說要不要去圍大林發電廠帶鄉親去圍"},{"start":194.662,"end":216.828,"text":"這是事實啊我們學者專家講什麼我們都尊重但是我要把事實給大家看川普總統一上台就說光電不要用什麼用石化用核能川普不就笑了我們這邊的人每一個學者專家都是第一等聰明的日本的核電廠一個一個又恢復為什麼他們配筆受不了嘛"},{"start":220.584,"end":234.174,"text":"所以他們的海嘯之後,他們全部關掉,現在一家一家恢復了。那光電,我們的經濟部長突發奇想,說要去禮宋島種電,然後海底電纜送到八旦島,然後從恆春上來,然後進入河山廠的配電系統。我問河山廠廠長,我說這可行嗎?他說可行。"},{"start":244.261,"end":272.503,"text":"但是,我們經濟部長說一坨電,不會超過五坨結果昨天、前天又改口啦所以那個電纜送不過來,因為巴士海峽最深的地方兩千多公尺所以那個海底電纜的困難度非常高那昨天就說,那不就用能源船載過來那在能源船載的成本就要五塊五一度所以喔,我不是說的啦,只是參考用"},{"start":274.333,"end":292.291,"text":"從菲律賓禮送島種太陽能光電板已經有台灣的能源廠商跑去那邊做了要開始啦全世界光電板拉最長的是新加坡他在澳洲在PERS那邊博士那邊做光電"},{"start":293.479,"end":321.064,"text":"那把海底電纜送到新加坡送了三千多公里這是全世界最誇張的那他的能源耗損一K40幾%那新加坡因為地小人稠所以他沒有辦法光電只好跑到澳洲大英國寫的國家所以這樣繞過來他們值不值得我不知道啦他們自己去算所以我在這邊跟大家報告我們希望"},{"start":322.659,"end":332.502,"text":"我們的光電越來越多然後把整個人家說國破三合在那我們現在是國債三合破"},{"start":333.424,"end":356.881,"text":"每一個光電廠都是用粉泥土那個土地將來要復原都是極度的困難所以我們看了都是整個環境破壞成這個樣子我們覺得很荒唐台灣還有這個能力去破壞山林整個延山公路要砍20萬棵樹然後要做光電板"},{"start":358.495,"end":365.721,"text":"這個我們所有的環保的單位好像沒有人出來抗爭我又去抗爭三次所以我要跟大家報告事實跟理想是有差距台灣這個基礎能源要怎麼做那你燃氣十幾部機組等著要上來"},{"start":379.417,"end":399.865,"text":"但是三接四接都還沒有完成四接還要等到2030年所以我們的基礎電力當然核能是最好而且最穩固等到打仗的時候在馬英九時代曾經曾經颱風兩個颱風來造成整個瓦斯船進不來台灣斷氣"},{"start":406.826,"end":421.177,"text":"八天 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對不對那如果是合併計算的話可能你們就可以用債務抵扣的方式所以我覺得有化整為零的執行上的破口我覺得這是我是提醒金管會要去思考的雖然你們覺得說從事該法的行為可能性不高譬如說某一個人他可能想到說他可能"},{"start":296.426,"end":317.723,"text":"宣布破產,他可能會有很多的債務人,我就趕快去買保單,我馬上分成十個、二十個我當然希望他是個案,但是我覺得這個方向上是必要去思考的但是我還是要提醒,我最後三十秒就好了我覺得還有幾件事情就是我覺得要去思考,就是說債務人現在已經在領生存保險金,到底能不能強制執行"},{"start":319.464,"end":343.589,"text":"還有一些保險你們都比我更熟悉他是可能從很年輕就開始繳或子女幫忙繳或父母買給子女從很年輕就開始繳繳到他可能他不是每個月領錢他可能是到最後他可能是包括他有cover一些我們去住院開刀的費用那些都被decode我曾經就在市場碰到就是說我想要去開刀我本來以為說這個可以cover"},{"start":343.989,"end":368.368,"text":"後來現在被債務抵扣他可能就沒有辦法使用這個有一些受險他是包含一些健康保險的覆約在裡頭到底能不能強制執行保險的樣態很多所以我覺得這也要去思考的那保險金太少要不要強制執行我都要提醒金管會這幾個面向要去考量"},{"start":368.991,"end":384.721,"text":"因為有些是賦約他可能買保險他送的賦約是你到時候開刀重大你可以開刀那我順便就是幫你cover一些你住院的費用跟天數甚至是有一些是打標靶藥物他可能可以幫你cover一些自費的"},{"start":385.501,"end":412.616,"text":"所以我覺得面向可能如果在這一次我們要修我覺得這幾個點應該要去思考未來有沒有需要執行機關衡量跟調查民眾會不會受到無意執行的滋擾會不會因為金管會的草案而出現具體的標準我覺得這個問題如果沒有辦法解決的話這個修法就沒有太大的意義在我看來就跟司法院現在強制執行法是跌床架屋以上是我的建議 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謝謝主席我想針對今天這個題目保單抵債保險法該怎麼修我想非常感謝今天主席排這個法案也非常感謝我們這麼多的專家學者大家一起來討論我想我們我國的保險市場"},{"start":25.615,"end":48.785,"text":"在這20幾年來可以說是展現驚人的成長人壽保險以及年金保險的投保率已經屢創新高平均我們國人每一個人只有的保單已經超過2.6張保險的滲透力一居全球前列隨著保險商品的日益多元化"},{"start":49.505,"end":76.298,"text":"我們保障生活資產傳承以及分散風險的功能備受民眾青睞然而保單現在成為我們財產價值的一部分也可能成為就是我們債務人面臨財務困境的時候被法院強制執行的標的就是我們現在一直重視的保單抵債所以引發很多事務上的爭議"},{"start":77.739,"end":99.092,"text":"但是我想剛才也有幾位專家寫者或委員也大家對於說最高法院民事大法庭在2022年12月作出了108年台抗之地897號裁定之後當然這個事務上的爭議已經不存在了"},{"start":100.351,"end":120.92,"text":"但是我們比較遺憾的當這個判決出來之後所造成的整個效應就整個我們法院充斥著保單抵債的強制執行的案件所以造成說整個司法事務界尤其我們的強制執行處所有的這些執行人員 工作量"},{"start":123.041,"end":143.129,"text":"大增大家疲於奔命根據這個金管會的統計是2023年的1月到2020年的9月總共有92.8萬件的保單被扣押等於一年有53萬件被扣押平均每個月有4.4萬件"},{"start":145.69,"end":164.545,"text":"兩年來全國有超過百萬件的保單被扣押這個非常的驚人所以我剛才提到說我們的全國各地方法院的民事執行處的人員真的是疲於奔命工作量大增造成說他們每天加班兩到三個小時"},{"start":165.606,"end":184.573,"text":"也沒有辦法 因為後面的案子一直來舊的案件還沒有解決 新的案件又進來所以法院的人力非常的不足去年我有跟鍾嘉斌委員 還有黃珊珊委員 也有召開一個公聽會"},{"start":188.294,"end":203.226,"text":"在我們的司法法治委員會也有就這個議題我們充分的做討論希望金管會能夠就這個議題好好的來修法我們的保險局要修法來做一個解決我想這一次金管會的一個修法我們大概來看一下對於這個"},{"start":213.025,"end":236.369,"text":"這麼高的保單的扣押我們一直覺得說這個會讓我們許多的債務人他的家庭喪失生活保險的一個保障所以為我們兼顧要保人或被保險人仍可維持一定的保險保障以及債權人也可以實現他的債權利益我們整個強制執行保險契約金額的門檻以及"},{"start":241.391,"end":257.863,"text":"要保人及被保險人或其配偶父母子女或兄弟姊妹等可否行使介入權使保險區的效率得以延續維持他的生活經濟所必須的保障這幾個點我們都必須在這一次的修法裡面去做充分的考量"},{"start":258.604,"end":274.145,"text":"我們看到這次金管會所提出的保險法的修正的部分條文就保單解約金的強制執行門檻的規定是當單一受險保單的解約金未超過債務人所在地區每人每月最低生活費"},{"start":275.966,"end":300.534,"text":"1.2倍乘以3個月這樣的一個標準的時候該保單才不得被扣押或強制執行但我個人認為當要保人為債務人時多數他仍需透過工作勞務的所得來償還他所負擔的債務以及維持他家庭生活的經濟也就是說若採用最低生活費當作門檻標準"},{"start":302.515,"end":317.437,"text":"一來金額將會低於要保人本來依靠生活的薪資所得二來各縣市的金額數字也無法一致所以對債務人而言保障生活維繫的需求"},{"start":318.778,"end":341.89,"text":"是不應住的地方而有所不同因此本席的提案是明定各有效契約之解約金的債權金額位於當年政府公告之最低工資的三個月金額者不得作為扣押或強制執行的標的以最低工資來制定除了讓全國的金額統一標標準統一外也能夠加"},{"start":343.471,"end":359.78,"text":"也更加保障邀保債務人的保險保障權利亦能兼顧債權人的一個債權利益至於金管會於修法中也提到包含介入權的制定健康與傷害保險不得作為強制執行的標的"},{"start":360.74,"end":388.008,"text":"我想這樣的一個修法的方向呢跟我的提案呢是這個方向是一致的所以我認為這一次這個修法是我們予以肯定最後我要期待透過這次的修法能讓保險的保單的強制執行更為合理化一方面要保障債權人依法追索的財產權另一方面我們要確保保護在面臨債務危機的時候仍能夠"},{"start":389.448,"end":412.679,"text":"保留足以維持基本生活的保佔的資產並且因強制執行而喪失保單的功能也讓我們法院的工作人員的工作量可以更為縮減與加速進行以上 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113年度中央政府總預算戶屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案19案第二來邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況並備諮詢那第三繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算中央政府總預算案戶屬單位預算"},{"start":1806.225,"end":1825.392,"text":"關於勞動部主管的部分那現在介紹在場的委員及列席官員我們第一位是蘇星群蘇昭緯謝謝昭緯接下來是我們王振旭王委員接下來介紹的是林月琴林委員"},{"start":1828.823,"end":1855.261,"text":"那現在來處理 對不起還有介紹列席的官員第一位是部長洪森漢 勞動部部長洪森漢 謝謝還有勞動力發展署代理署長陳思昌 謝謝勞動基金運用局局長蘇益清 謝謝治安署署長周子蓮 謝謝還有勞動部級職業安全衛生研究所所長李伯昌 謝謝"},{"start":1857.628,"end":1867.131,"text":"縱規師師長王厚誠勞動關係師師長王厚維還有勞動保險師師長陳美女謝謝還有勞動扶持退休師師長謝謙謙還有勞動條件及就業平等師師長蘇維琛謝謝還有勞動法務師師長傅費芝謝謝"},{"start":1888.786,"end":1903.829,"text":"秘書處司長丁玉珍人事處處長江碧玲政工處處長周志信會計處處長林美信統計處處長梅家苑還有資訊處處長劉純坤採訪華人職業災害預防及重建中心執行長何俊傑"},{"start":1917.848,"end":1944.185,"text":"還有行政院主席總署基金預算處科長劉雅飛勞工保險局局長白麗珍我們現在來處理副主單位預算勞動部主管部分凍結報告案19案請一併宣讀"},{"start":1945.82,"end":1965.269,"text":"報告事項處理勞動部行為一百一十三年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議分別檢送該部主管預算凍結案書面報告十九案第一至第三案為勞工保險局作業基金一職業災害預防預算凍結五十萬元二職業安全衛生文化促進教育訓練品質提升預算凍結三十萬元"},{"start":1967.35,"end":1971.816,"text":"3.職業災害勞工重建預算凍結35萬元第4至第19案為就業安定基金4.綜合規劃業務預算凍結100萬元5.運用多元培訓模式辦理失業者及特定對象職業訓練預算合併凍結30萬元6.促進國民就業計畫預算合併凍結100萬元"},{"start":1985.551,"end":1990.453,"text":"7.促進特定對象及弱勢者等就業服務預算合併凍結100萬元8.青年就業服務預算合併凍結50萬元9.微型創業鳳凰貸款利息補貼及創業協助預算凍結50萬元10.強化勞動力發展創新效能預算凍結50萬元"},{"start":2004.519,"end":2012.203,"text":"11 推動勞工健康服務人才多元就業及營造健康工作環境促進就業計劃救保預算凍結10萬元12 外國人聘僱管理及許可計劃預算合併凍結500萬元13 辦理外國人跨部會協調事項等相關業務預算合併凍結50萬元"},{"start":2024.269,"end":2030.834,"text":"14 補助衛生福利部辦理外籍看護工申審流程與國內照顧服務體系接軌方案預算凍結200萬元15 補助內政部營建署辦理營造業雇主申請外國人案件之前期審查業務實施計畫預算凍結15萬元16 推動雇主設置補給乳室與托兒設施措施救保預算凍結10萬元17 基金用途預算凍結2000萬元18"},{"start":2051.969,"end":2065.622,"text":"一般行政管理計畫預算凍結830萬元19 勞動資料科學管理與應用研究業務預算凍結30萬元 宣讀完畢好 謝謝那有關於附所單位預算勞動部主管部分凍結報告案有異議如果沒有好 如果沒有異議那我們先做一下決定"},{"start":2081.36,"end":2088.922,"text":"同意動之並提報院會好謝謝那接下來請勞動部洪部長來做報告喂好OK"},{"start":2102.492,"end":2120.042,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 各位記者朋友大家好那今天很榮幸在此提出本會期的業務報告那首先在勞動情勢方面113年度的勞動力人數較前一年同期增加5.8萬人就業人數增加6.7萬人失業率其實下降了0.1個百分點"},{"start":2121.723,"end":2143.241,"text":"男性與女性的勞參率差距減少了0.1個百分點實質經常性薪資的平均數及中位數分別比去年同期增加0.58%及1.09%接下來是本年度的施政重點最低工資法自今年上路每個月的最低工資調整為28590元每小時是190元約有257萬名的勞工受惠"},{"start":2150.146,"end":2170.504,"text":"令為促進薪資透明化我們預計在今年會修正就業服務法將薪資皆是的門檻調高到5萬元那為落實友善職場環境與維護工作平權今年將針對彈性暈流停停薪事辦的計劃的事辦的結果來進行檢討那也在準備相關優化的措施跟計劃而且"},{"start":2172.386,"end":2189.04,"text":"不限事業單位規模提供企業辦理哺乳拖額設施或措施及補助經費協助企業營造育兒友善職場環境至於落實職場性騷擾方面我們已經協助地方政府建立處理機制"},{"start":2190.462,"end":2215.462,"text":"並優化性騷擾案件通報系統同時以培訓1611名的調查專業人才在攸關勞動者權益的勞保及退休金制度方面我們持續透過多元管道宣導年金的制度並檢討與修正相關法規同時為穩定及維持基金水位以藉由撥補及多元基金投資運用在113年勞保整體收支順差為"},{"start":2217.063,"end":2217.683,"text":"那運用規模為7兆"},{"start":2236.809,"end":2254.308,"text":"7兆1287億元為舒緩義後景氣復甦的人力需求我們將參考義後改善缺工擴大就業方案的執行經驗在未來建立常態性缺工因應措施並加強跨部會合作提升媒合效能強化本國勞工投入缺工產業"},{"start":2255.149,"end":2279.746,"text":"另外也持续协助妇女青年中高龄及高龄者投入职场以增加劳动力为提升劳工就业技能我们透过职训管道办理各项就业导向的职前训练及在职进修训练同时配合国家重点产业发展强化数位转型绿能智慧机械等重点产业人才职训并且持续提升我国技能发展"},{"start":2281.247,"end":2305.889,"text":"積極參與國際技能賽事強化產業人才競爭力及台灣國際能見度那多元陪伴照顧服務事辦計畫在今年3月底前開始提供服務協助家庭照顧者重返或續留職場不離職此外因應就業服務法46條修正本部將邀集相關部會以及團體共同延伸新法的推動方式以保障重症家庭聘僱移工的權益"},{"start":2306.71,"end":2321.806,"text":"在擴大延攬外國人才方面我們持續推動移工留才久用方案在今年1月止以核准41351名的外國中介人技術人才留台至於引進印度勞動力方面我們"},{"start":2323.052,"end":2341.805,"text":"定期召開工作會議妥善辦理引進印度移工的準備工作其次為了簡化移工聘僱及居留許可申請流程已與內政部移民署共同推動在臺移工一站式申請聘僱及居留整合服務目前已有145,993名僱主"},{"start":2348.726,"end":2364.699,"text":"58名移工受惠本部依據憲法法庭判決增訂工會法第6條之一明確規範廠廠工會範圍草案已於3月13日經行政院通過後續將送大院來審議那另外鼓勵勞資雙方協商及簽訂團體"},{"start":2368.482,"end":2374.826,"text":"我們提供簽訂團體協約獎勵金從113年至今1月已受理96件合法獎勵金1292萬餘元保障經濟較弱勢勞工透過司法程序維護自身權益本部於114年1月24號預告勞資爭議法律及生活"},{"start":2393.358,"end":2416.664,"text":"費用輔助辦法修正案擴大訴訟代理及必要費用輔助範圍並延長中高齡高齡者與身心障礙勞工必要生活費用輔助期間以降低勞工訴訟障礙此外在策進職場減災與強化勞工職災保護方面一直是本部刻不容緩的重要工作為預防勞工受到職場霸凌本部課證"},{"start":2418.464,"end":2432.992,"text":"積極研修職業安全衛生法增訂職場霸凌防治專章以其完善職場霸凌事件的申訴調查處理機制等規範以加強保護勞工的身心健康我們也積極推動營造工程的檢栽除持續規劃營造業的專案檢查並強化營造工程施工安全監督"},{"start":2438.255,"end":2455.194,"text":"訂定勞工檢查方針依風險分級執行監督檢查工作同時持續輔導中小企業提升安全衛生設施以及健全職業傷害防治與職災個案主動服務以保障工作者安全與健康"},{"start":2456.255,"end":2479.304,"text":"我相信有效的制度的推動及完善政策的制定不僅需要政府部門的努力更仰賴各界的共同參與和監督勞工部其與自身不只是政策執行者更要是傾聽勞工需求回應社會的期待更成為勞資合作創造共好的好夥伴最後感謝各位委員的指教也期望各界持續給予我們建議謝謝大家"},{"start":2486.536,"end":2492.638,"text":"好 謝謝有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":2495.083,"end":2514.792,"text":"現在開始詢問 做以下宣告 第一本會議委員諮詢時間為六加二分鐘 列席委員四加一分鐘 第二十點半截止發言登記 第三委員如果順便質詢 請於三個會前提出 預期不受理那第四暫定十點半休息十分鐘 第五本次會議不處理臨時提案 那現在請登記第一位委員黃國昌委員來做詢問"},{"start":2523.394,"end":2523.835,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩請部長"},{"start":2533.335,"end":2557.964,"text":"部長好,在您今天的口頭報告還有印的PPT大概就有關於就業人數、勞動參與率、工資都做了說明但有一個獨特的地方我在口頭報告裡面沒有看到是針對我們目前台灣的工時到去年我們全年的總工時是多少時間?去年數字嗎?對,一年"},{"start":2559.776,"end":2583.53,"text":"我直接跟部長講是2030個小時2016年我們的民進黨政府上台了以後蔡英文總統對勞工朋友提了六大保障然後其中一個最重要的是工時要減少因為長久以來台灣被稱為過勞之道您知道2016年的時候我們的總工時是多少時間嗎"},{"start":2585.643,"end":2588.565,"text":"我直接跟部長講是20352016年的2035到2024年現在是2030部長您覺得我們現在台灣勞工的工時會不會過長"},{"start":2598.561,"end":2615.321,"text":"我覺得有檢討的空間你覺得有檢討的空間嗎因為我相信部長過去在社運界也好或是您上一任當委員的時候那任何勞工過勞要增加有關於國定假日的主張我相信讓很多勞動朋友都很有期待"},{"start":2615.942,"end":2644.014,"text":"那只不過說我們前兩天在內政部針對在內政委員會針對有關於國定假日要增加這樣子的議題的時候有很多委員也很關心說您上任了部長以後針對這樣子的政策目標你會不會繼續貫徹來加以執行還是說針對勞動部的立場會跟內政部一樣目前的國定假日有關於增加放假日的時間勞動部並沒有打算要做調整"},{"start":2645.131,"end":2666.056,"text":"我跟黃委員說明我想黃委員很清楚知道其實國定假日相關的法規目前的主管機關是內政部是是是所以我現在指起是要內政部的立場但是郎部在這上面也不是說這全部都是內政部的事情而已不是這樣所以從郎部的角度第一個我們確實覺得是可以來通盤考慮各個"},{"start":2668.517,"end":2686.668,"text":"領域的工作者的狀況也包括工商情境包括政府的運作尤其從勞工部的角度當然我們會特別在意勞工的需求所以我們認為在這個議題的國定假日調整雖然法規的主管機關在內政部但我們認為在國定假日的調整上面有"},{"start":2688.137,"end":2697.482,"text":"可以正向討論的空間有正向討論的空間嗎好 我進一步跟部長交換一下意見除了國定假日以外啊對很多社群家庭而言"},{"start":2699.301,"end":2726.117,"text":"家中如果有需要人照顧的話放假去照顧家裡的人是一個非常重要的事情所以我們之前推了家庭照顧假家庭照顧假現在一年有幾天部長知道嗎七天七天嘛這七天是不是併入市價計算對所以有很多民間團體甚至有很多婦女的團體出來大聲疾呼認為家庭照顧假七天併入市價計算是看得到吃不到嘛"},{"start":2727.908,"end":2747.616,"text":"那在整個政策的立場上面把家庭照護假我們把它列為有薪假這樣子的一個政策方向部長您贊不贊成我先跟委員說明第一個事情是其實在我上任以後其實我們把照顧不離職視為非常重要的政策的目標這個我理解"},{"start":2748.556,"end":2771.945,"text":"那這裡面照顧不離職裡面包括顧小的部分包括顧老的部分所以我們其實也在思考相關的制度上面的調整那家庭照顧要調整是路徑之一是是路徑之一所以我們現在是在總體思考照顧不離職的這個方向上因為很多的包括很多的婦女團體性別團體也大概跟我說他們很希望"},{"start":2772.685,"end":2781.812,"text":"未來是透過更彈性的包括也許放假的制度留庭的制度來去緩解他們可能現在必須要在"},{"start":2783.628,"end":2801.933,"text":"這個職場跟家庭照顧必須二選一的這個狀況那我們會從整體的照顧不離之狀況提出一套做法那我們希望能夠更彈性我提一個政策的方向給部長做思考剛剛您提到婦女團體那婦女薪資基金會的董事長曾經說過"},{"start":2804.233,"end":2832.178,"text":"勞工一年的市價14天7天的家庭照顧價併入在裡面所以對勞工來講看得到但是用不到的家庭照顧價剛剛我所援引的是這樣子的主張所以對於台灣民眾黨而言我們把家庭照顧價把它列為是有性價這個是我們希望推動的整個立法的方向從勞動部的立場來講你們只是目前為止最起碼把它考慮成入境之一"},{"start":2833.198,"end":2849.692,"text":"這個是討論的路徑之一但是確實這裡面要考慮是財政上面的狀況因為這個所謂有薪其實可能是要政府付錢那這裡面包括現在財化法的這樣修訂的方法讓中央政府其實可以運用的財政空間"},{"start":2851.243,"end":2874.224,"text":"又再減小了如果按照目前的財化法假如要上路的話那會讓中央政府的財政空間又再減小所以我的意思是說這是路徑之一那財政上面當然是必須考慮的其中一點剛剛您提到有關於財政上面的問題就回到了我上次最後一次質詢的時候我請教您的事情因為"},{"start":2875.265,"end":2899.323,"text":"之前就業安定基金亂花的狀況整個社會都很憤怒嘛審計部一開始的調查2022年到2024年的時候有5174萬不符合用途後來在我們的要求之下他擴大調查過去這五年有7224萬遭到濫用那上一次我在質詢您的時候我說我們的立場很清楚"},{"start":2900.123,"end":2926.735,"text":"所有這不到農用的錢全部都要追回來那您說這不會是空洞的承諾會有具體的作為嗎那目前為止勞動部具體的作為是什麼跟黃磊說明當然審計部的報告他其實審計部的相關的調查包括他們其實也好幾波的來函要我們說明跟確認跟釐清那我們目前都按照審計部要求的進度在進行"},{"start":2927.415,"end":2941.283,"text":"那但是這個最後的狀況該怎麼處理其實就其實政府的這個審計制度是有一套法規的那這個最後判定的權限其實是在審計部你們給審計部的回函是密件嗎不是那不是密件的話會不會可以提供這個可能我可以問一下審計部吧"},{"start":2950.032,"end":2969.582,"text":"對啊 因為你們如果給審計部的回函如果不是理見的話是不是請你們先說我先讓黃委員知道就是說第一個我們的回函最後審計部怎麼判定我們當然就會尊重審計部的職權我直接跟部長說明為什麼我會希望看到你們的回函因為你們的回函其實代表了勞動部的立場是"},{"start":2970.723,"end":2985.338,"text":"那從勞動部的立場是錢到底要追回來還是幫過去所犯的錯誤再問過是非我覺得從你們的迴韓白紙黑字看了會最清楚我要跟黃委員說明是說最後判定該怎麼處理的我們會尊重審計部我們會尊重審計部"},{"start":2988.001,"end":3004.575,"text":"那我們在我們的回覆裡面把確實我們認為有哪些部分有檢討的空間哪些部分可以做得更好我們在裡面也做出說明我為什麼會希望看到勞動部回審計部的回函道理非常的簡單就如同我剛剛說的勞動部回審計部的立場"},{"start":3007.057,"end":3025.23,"text":"到底是每一分每一毫被浪費到而且要追回來還是幫過去所犯的錯誤再問過是非其實看迴韓是最清楚啦我這樣直接跟部長說好了齁如果這個不是密件的話那是不是請會後 請勞動部來提供應該是可以吧"},{"start":3026.397,"end":3048.206,"text":"可以嗎?好那個主席也站起來了我最後只請教一個問題因為我之前追的事情我希望都能夠有一些follow up之前我也質疑過許明春這個殺龍兆為了拍他的馬屁花納稅人的錢殺錢不手軟那個時候我有請教你說這種出自濫造的驗收報告勞動部檢討完了嗎?"},{"start":3051.226,"end":3066.703,"text":"那許民村的沙龍照額納稅的買單追回來了嗎那我請您去問一下許民村這個錢到底要不要吐出來那你說你會去問許部長那你問許部長以後他的答覆是什麼我還是跟這個歡迎說明"},{"start":3068.871,"end":3094.717,"text":"在關於勞動救安基金的使用的檢討其實這段時間我們都沒有停止包括在1月的時候我們也提出了一個勞動救安基金的但是我現在是正確的你之前對我做的承諾再進一步follow up問我相信應該是很公平我覺得這部分我們來看審計部最後的結果你那時候答覆我的時候說你會去問許民村那我現在的問題很具體你也會問許民村他的回應是什麼"},{"start":3095.617,"end":3117.736,"text":"我確實現在還沒有問許明春所以你上次答應我的事情到目前為止沒有做到嗎在這個案子上我沒有去問許明春部長但我們在這個案子上面最後會怎麼處理我們會來看審計部的報告我最後只跟部長交換一個看法啦如果你當初覺得我請你去問許明春是不適當的話其實你可以直接這樣回覆"},{"start":3118.516,"end":3135.703,"text":"但是你答應了以後又沒有做到這恐怕是另外一回事我現在確實還沒有去問許明春部長所以你不是要去問許明春嗎我們是依循跟審計部審計部來來做跟對我們做的調查包括相關的審計工作我們依循這個相關的工作來進行所以我問問題其實"},{"start":3138.584,"end":3166.621,"text":"喜歡距離啦因為這種空泛的回答問題對事情的解決沒有幫助啊我基本上都希望用制度的方法來處理過去的問題我最後只講一句話用制度來處理我並不反對可是你知道委員會所做的承諾沒有錯那恐怕是另外一個層次的問題但我現在比較希望用制度的方式來處理問題所以你改變你的心意沒有要問許銘春了是嗎目前沒有問OK好謝謝"},{"start":3168.953,"end":3172.955,"text":"好謝謝接下來請陳秦威委員來做詢答主席各位委員各位官員我也想請勞動部部長來請部長"},{"start":3189.449,"end":3200.649,"text":"部長好部長剛剛您提到要給黃國昌委員您交給審計部的這份資料我想請問可不可以也給我們未還委員會的委員可以啊"},{"start":3201.223,"end":3227.315,"text":"還有我們國民黨黨團我們也想看這個7000萬您到底要如何發揮你的魄力把它追討回來報告上面不是寫如何追討回來因為最後怎麼處理是審計部的判定那這個所謂的我們的回函主要是針對審計部提出來的這些項目那我們去釐清然後我們認為哪些部分需要檢討上面的說明"},{"start":3227.415,"end":3243.047,"text":"好那這個是我們的責任因為民眾希望可以追討回來好再來呢這個也是近期非常多人關心的議題不知道部長有沒有看到前陣子有一位三種的醫師因為聚開巴士兩表遭到家屬攻擊最終就被判刑了"},{"start":3243.467,"end":3254.574,"text":"那近期醫護荒呢像這樣子的巴氏量表也常常出現在急重症的病房更是容易造成衝突那當然今年12月31號三讀通過舊輔法第46條滿80歲以上免金巴氏量表就可以聘移工的這個規定那當然我是來幫關心這件事的家庭來做一個追"},{"start":3267.662,"end":3281.664,"text":"就是追問想請教您因為你常常在媒體上會講到說需要六個月以上待配套完成才可以發布實施我想知道說最快您會需要多久最慢您會需要多久"},{"start":3283.341,"end":3301.657,"text":"我跟陳委員說明因為這個其實蠻多人關心這個問題那我有看到之前好像有一些政治人物說我們在這個問題上面因為沒有馬上上路所以就說是行政怠惰那我要跟委員說明這樣的說法我認為對我們的同仁是很不公平的"},{"start":3302.177,"end":3329.198,"text":"應該是說當在野黨在提出一讀二讀三讀的過程其實很明顯的您可以感受到在野黨對這個立場的堅持啦但是您在整個過程當中卻是不斷的提出反對反對反對而沒有具體的去想說也許你也可以開始規劃配套措施整合我們的長照的制度無異於漠視有這樣子需求的家庭繼續在受苦啊成人不是這樣子的"},{"start":3330.778,"end":3357.427,"text":"總統在這個法案是1月20號然後公告那本部是在1月17號就找了衛福部開跨部會的會議來去討論這個法通過以後後續的因應那這個法後續的因應其實現在有很多的重症家庭是很擔心的因為已經陸陸續續看到一些重症家庭他們聘護移工他們移工已經有這個想要棄重則輕的狀況"},{"start":3359.788,"end":3368.892,"text":"所以我們現在在做的配套主要是要來怎麼確保重症家庭他們能夠找到相關照護資源的權利所以我們會設計一個雙軌的流程所以我一開始其實我就是幫這些關心這件事的人稍微問進度我只是問您最快幾時最慢幾時"},{"start":3381.619,"end":3395.473,"text":"要讓各位關心這件事情的人自己心中有一把尺他知道他大概哪一個時間內您會說我們可以開始送件我可以讓包括在立法院關心這邊的委員知道"},{"start":3396.334,"end":3423.447,"text":"我們現在在做幾件事情第一個事情是因為要去兼顧重症家庭的權益所以我們會設計一個雙軌分流來去讓重症家庭能夠更簡單的方式更容易的方式來去做相關的申請而不會他的權益受到影響這是第一個第二個因為有這個雙軌的流程所以很多地方的長照中心也好或者相關的服務單位他們需要增加人力所以我們現在也要找裁員還要招募還要訓練"},{"start":3424.467,"end":3453.599,"text":"這算起來也需要幾個月的時間還有一個重點是也需要來跟我們的移工來源國因為四個移工來源國來討論是不是能夠增加引進那移工來源國他也有他相關的訓練單位的量能這部分也要去協調所以在這些工作林林總統下還包括法規的修訂我們認為最快可能要六個月而這六個月其實真的已經是壓縮了已經是高度的壓縮最慢呢我們就是希望六個月可以我們希望六個月可以完成"},{"start":3454.899,"end":3472.525,"text":"謝謝謝謝那我們也希望可以在7月底之前上路因為這個我們研究了一下相關的執法的盤點修改我相信比較其他修法其實並沒有調整的非常多所以我也希望部長可以落實這個法案的精神積極的去做好嗎對但我還是要幫我們同仁說話我們絕對沒有在這裡面"},{"start":3476.486,"end":3505.029,"text":"行政怠惰或者相關的杯葛這個勢力法案三讀通過的法律我們當然會執行只是我們要把配套做好因為如果配套沒有做好可能會引起更多這個聘僱市場失序的狀況這是我們不樂見的情況會影響到很多人的權益您之前有提出一個數據您說預估可能會增加多少份的送件這是您預估出來的目前是會53萬人取得資格但"},{"start":3505.609,"end":3527.004,"text":"我們自己有推估了一下 覺得可能會有可能將近10萬人左右會快速的增加我也希望可以跟您要到一份您是怎麼統計出這樣子的數據的 您是有去做民調嗎還是您是有去找一個量本數用過去的資料推估那我可以一周內請您提供這一份資料嗎"},{"start":3531.047,"end":3547.218,"text":"好謝謝那再來呢想要跟您討論一下最近我們的委員針對預算到底經過審議每個科別積木別科子木還剩下多少預算如何的核實分配預算數接下來要請行政院還有部本部調控那我有發公文到勞動部勞動部公文還沒有回來但是已經電話回覆說還在調整分配中請問這件事正確嗎您還在調整分配中還在部本部內調控"},{"start":3562.148,"end":3582.058,"text":"是是啊 正確對那我想請問為什麼您可以在上節目的時候大談今年的育兒津貼被凍結被刪除我想問你是從本部的哪一個預算出的被凍結多少是哪一個科子目因為是您上的節目您講的話所以我們就請部長來回答是 好"},{"start":3583.979,"end":3609.991,"text":"謝謝有人給我這個機會說明我確實前兩天在這個媒體上面那我後來看我們是有這個我這邊也是有口誤的部分你是說錯還是口誤你是說錯還是口誤那為什麼您會覺得有這樣子的口誤呢你是從哪邊推我先說明主要被刪減跟凍結的部分是在用來做產檢價跟賠產檢價的薪資補助"},{"start":3613.152,"end":3627.496,"text":"所以產檢價跟賠產檢價的薪資補助還是被刪跟凍還是會影響這些新手爸媽相關的權益這部分是在我們的勞動條件及就業平等業務的這個部分又有凍結也有刪減"},{"start":3629.895,"end":3647.612,"text":"那這當然是影響新手幫忙的權益但我確實口誤講成是育嬰留庭相關的薪資補助因為可能最近開的育嬰留庭的會議開的太多了所以有這個口誤但實際上面是產檢價跟陪產檢價的薪資補助那請您在這邊跟大家澄清說沒有影響到育嬰留庭"},{"start":3648.473,"end":3652.317,"text":"這邊也是你們勞動部自己的新聞稿六成是從就業保險基金支出就業保險基金我們根本還沒有處理到我們晚一點才會處理嗎那你也知道為什麼我們基金這麼晚才會處理也是因為"},{"start":3669.316,"end":3683.89,"text":"上個會期有重大的這個救安基金的爭議才會延遲因為當時我們都在檢討為什麼救安基金會有如此大的弊案剩下兩成就是由勞動部來支出那勞動部呢我們是編列在哪一個預算我們是編列在勞動保險司的預算裡面的這個講輔助費裡面所以我們回去翻"},{"start":3690.697,"end":3707.404,"text":"所有的刪減報告等等就是沒有講補助案的刪減所以我也希望您跟未來您的同事們出去也不要再這樣子講了好嗎所以我剛才說明我在這部分是有口誤但是主要刪跟凍我們來講凍結我們來講凍結"},{"start":3713.806,"end":3734.135,"text":"因為這個是我之前翻出來的其實您在當立法委員的時候也有提出非常非常多的預算案那我們來看113年3月的時候其實那個時候送了21件的解凍案進來有20件很快就已經解凍了而且我看劉建國委員 昭偉今天其實也排了非常多的解凍案"},{"start":3734.935,"end":3758.093,"text":"其實如果今天沒有這個復疫的大戰我們早就已經把解凍報告送進來了假設這些不是假設我已經看完了大概就是5%到10%的預算你們前半年就可以解凍了你現在根本不需要講這些不屬實的話我是希望部長一分錢做一分事你知道你今年的預算是已經比去年多了58億58億"},{"start":3762.952,"end":3783.262,"text":"那個跟陳委員說明我想我也做過立法委員在預算的審議上面很重要的是必須看科目尤其是科目又不能留用所以其實在我剛才說的產檢跟賠產檢價上面三根三根洞幾乎是整筆項目的三成"},{"start":3783.982,"end":3800.322,"text":"我們希望啦如果你們可以好好的把這些解凍案送進來並且做好報告的話我們所有的委員我們所有的委員都會關注全民關注的事情好嗎那最後我時間不太多所以我要問一下我最近對不起"},{"start":3803.346,"end":3830.358,"text":"主席我問最後一個問題因為這是護理師比較關心的昨天我有參加一個依依人力銀行這個護理方的問題這最後一個問題很快這個護理師您在從立委轉任到部長前您也有為護理師發言還拍了一些短片啊等等的那當然他們現在有提到說希望可以開放資深的移工還有僑外生擔任中階的護佐並且提高薪資門檻到三萬四千元"},{"start":3832.28,"end":3837.121,"text":"好 那我想知道說您跟衛福部開會做的規劃是如何了呢"},{"start":3838.943,"end":3866.993,"text":"是針對中介戶左嗎對 因為你們要從橋外申來這個案子主要是衛福部來跟勞動部申請的案子我們有兩點我們第一個我們在看的事情是關於這個薪資門檻的部分那第二個事情是當然我們也會很在意的事情是因為這個案子如果他的原意是希望讓戶左跟這個護理師有一個更好的分工讓護理師可以更專心的去做他們專業的工作那所以我們也會希望衛福部要確認"},{"start":3868.573,"end":3892.806,"text":"在戶左跟護理師的分工的界面上面能夠更清楚能夠讓分工有效或專業我覺得這部分很重要所以你們現在的標準跟訓練內容其實是還沒有明確的嗎當然相關的訓練的內容這部分是衛福部他們這邊來提出可是我們是作為跟衛福部一起討論這事情的單位的話對我們來說我剛才講的部分是重要的配套這個配套要做到"},{"start":3893.226,"end":3911.479,"text":"好 那我已經初步幫您統計起來了目前橋外生在這裡學習護理科系的總共是187名那我具體的跟您建議如果這187名學生您可以去調查他的意向是不是有願意留在台灣或者是他更傾向回到母國"},{"start":3912.279,"end":3937.358,"text":"我覺得你有做出這樣子的統計我們再來後續的落實因為台灣目前自己衛福部預估護理需要到2030年這個缺口啊高達5.5到7.4萬的護理人力所以我想這個187名的意願雖然他們是在這個缺口裡面占少數可是他們的意願對於您後來跟衛福部的這個合作非常的重要"},{"start":3937.958,"end":3960.062,"text":"跟柯文說明當然護理的人力整體這部分還是要看衛福部他們怎麼樣來做護理人力的整體的規劃那我們主要是在於是說這些相關的管制工作上面最後要做什麼樣子的管制規劃當然我們也不太希望說您可能開了這樣子的這個缺結果最後申請的人非常的少調查他們這187個人的意願也是蠻重要的總體的評估我們來跟衛福部討論謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":3967.335,"end":3971.405,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長接下來請林月琴委員來做選擇"},{"start":3988.086,"end":3996.695,"text":"好 我們麻煩我們的勞動部長還有我們的發展勞動力發展署的陳世昌署長部長還有代理署長請部長還有代理署長"},{"start":4007.175,"end":4014.457,"text":"臺灣的詐欺犯罪問題非常嚴重包括91萬名的在臺移工也成為詐騙者眼中的肥羊"},{"start":4024.921,"end":4048.469,"text":"團體調查我們的保守推估那移工被詐騙的金額至少新台幣17億那受詐騙的移工當中從事製造跟工程的大概受騙的金額大概13145元那看護的呢移工大概是5596元所以平均下來大概8000元所以"},{"start":4052.54,"end":4064.905,"text":"整個為了防堵詐騙行政院自111年6月開始實施新世代的打詐的一個執行策略行動綱領那大概的確112年我們晉升到1.5版"},{"start":4068.446,"end":4074.668,"text":"113年7月3度通過打詐新司法113年的11月28日通過了打詐綱領的2.0版所以在期間勞動部也發新聞稿說一工一戰士的服務響應打詐"},{"start":4086.613,"end":4114.614,"text":"那要避免移工誤信詐騙集團要防堵買工費的詐騙可是呢我們看到一站式的服務對象基本上事實上是新聘外籍家庭看護工和家庭幫傭而防詐不是這項服務的重點所以這樣子在講的話以一站式的服務宣傳防詐根本就會是不是牛頭不對馬嘴所以請問一下勞動部究竟有什麼樣的防詐的一個政策"},{"start":4117.329,"end":4135.385,"text":"跟委員報告在整個行政院的這個打詐的一個相關的一個權責分工上勞動部有他要處理的就是有關識別詐騙的一個資訊的這樣子的一個工作所以在針對移工朋友他在如何能夠提高他對於這些詐騙資訊的敏感度這個是我們要做的一個重點"},{"start":4135.965,"end":4154.703,"text":"那目前我們除了剛剛委員所提到的針對一站式的家庭移工的部分我們有做這樣子的一個宣導工作之外我們也透過LineNet跟1955等相關的可以直接對得上移工朋友的一個資訊聯繫的一個管道我們來做這個推波提醒他什麼樣情況下包括買工費是不應該的不管是在"},{"start":4155.143,"end":4181.479,"text":"他期滿或者是續聘等等都不會有買工費的這樣子的額外付出的需求我們過去這一段時間推播了94次透過Line Ad直接跟個別的移工朋友做這樣的訊息的傳遞那這個部分我們會持續來精進來辦理所以要講清楚說明白否則的話人家會誤會說那只有這樣子的可是這個基本上概念上又不相同那現今台灣移工總人數"},{"start":4182.912,"end":4205.138,"text":"大概在91萬那其中行方不明的大概事實上是9萬所以將近1%那社福類的移工事實上需求是跟供給裡面大概事實上是大缺工的狀態可是製造業平均每月找工作的移工人數大概是2183人可是真正工作需求只有805人所以在這種狀況裡面 聘僱期間轉換"},{"start":4208.719,"end":4221.649,"text":"雇主的合法工作非常難找那再加上九萬名隨時要找的工作的刑方不明的移工非法移工也有大量的非法工作的一些需求這邊就會呈現一個買工"},{"start":4224.484,"end":4240.957,"text":"那個詐騙能夠橫行的非法市場所以想問部長你過去相當注重甚至也非常關注移工的一個保護議題你上任後對於這樣子的社會情境有什麼推動改變的想法"},{"start":4242.216,"end":4269.173,"text":"跟委員說明當然我們不希望看到這種賣公費的狀況所以我在當委員的時候很在意所以包括我們現在也希望透過更多的方式來協助這個比方說移工假如他要轉換雇主的話然後怎麼樣子能夠更順暢然後減少中間買公費的狀況這都是我們其實現在在做的所以我們其實現在也有部分的就會負責針對轉換雇主的做法其實做了一些精進"},{"start":4274.031,"end":4295.929,"text":"可是還是發生了嘛那桃園市政府就業執訓服務處裡邊將移工轉換雇主業務外包所以得標廠商呢聘僱了一個越南籍的女性那L小姐呢擔任該中心的雙語諮詢服務的時候協助移工線上求職登記可是這個L小姐"},{"start":4296.75,"end":4314.541,"text":"竟然涉嫌向移工收取買工費那前後收取4次不法所得22萬那最後當然是被以詐欺罪起訴所以想問像這樣的一個案子在去年3月到8月間發生那桃園地檢署12月也起訴勞動部知情嗎"},{"start":4318.12,"end":4346.986,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我們有掌握到這個資訊那陳儒委員剛所講的他是一個桃園市政府委外的一個廠商的一個所屬員工但是因為基本上是由我們政府委外所以我們這邊政府責任還是無法迴避所以在整個案子發生之後呢第一個當事人當然就除了解雇之外我們也移送司法單位去做這個部分的一個追查責任的一個追查同時我們也把他過去曾經經手過的其他申請案件有沒有類似的一個情形我們也做了一個"},{"start":4347.486,"end":4372.031,"text":"清查避免說有其他人是我們沒有察覺到的那同時我們也檢討整個就業中心他的一個服務的一個流程包括那個環境硬體環境我們都加強這個各國語言的一個揭示在這邊接受的服務是免費的那去透過這個SOP的檢討跟這個環境的一個友善化跟這個多元資訊的提供的方式希望能夠杜絕以後這種事情再次發生"},{"start":4372.871,"end":4402.332,"text":"不過也是經過這個案子我們知道買工費的一個詐騙可能觸犯刑法是犯罪行為面對這種犯罪行為的話勞動部不能夠用行政處罰去輕輕的放過所以應該主動移送檢察官部長你同意這樣子的做法嗎我覺得該遵守相關的法規這個我想沒有什麼迴避的空間希望你們也是比照因為我們現在看到勞動部自己查核的"},{"start":4402.885,"end":4420.926,"text":"並沒有減送那我覺得這可能要注意所以百密有一疏桃園市政府委外廠商人員涉嫌到向轉換登記移工的收取買工費被害人竟然在NGO團體提醒之後才"},{"start":4422.038,"end":4435.845,"text":"發現自己原來是受騙可是我們的發展署委外標案也很多的時候去年這些服務案件佔總量的8.4%經費佔51.17%所以今年到3月為止佔10%經費佔19.28%所以本席認為勞動部對這些委外廠商平日是不是有強加管理"},{"start":4446.65,"end":4452.208,"text":"特別是在對於懲辦人員的連結的要求請問管理機制是什麼"},{"start":4455.165,"end":4482.305,"text":"跟委員報告我們在跟廠商做這樣一個勞務委外的一個過程當中對於他的品質管理除了由廠商指代督導人員來做管理之外我們在整個發案署本身包括我們在事務中心跟我們的公立救福機構也要有我們自己的這個公務人員來做這個部分的一個把關所以他們有沒有照這個程序來走以及每一個案件到時候他的在資訊系統上面登錄是不是一致的這個部分我們都會來做一個品質上的一個確保"},{"start":4483.115,"end":4504.447,"text":"希望真的能夠保障到我們的移工的權益所以勞動部的統計2023年查劑並裁罰的案件大概有10件成功率大概三分之一而已2023年是13件今年至今只有一件所以想問是這應該是勞動部比較被動的等待檢舉"},{"start":4505.56,"end":4515.552,"text":"如果看這樣子結果的話那被動效果就是不好所以請問勞動部有徵求移工服務團體就業服務工會合作來鼓勵通報的規劃嗎"},{"start":4517.761,"end":4536.99,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在主要除了被動受理檢舉在其實我們主動的去查查的部分有針對如果過去曾經他在服務的過程當中或者這個在服務的過程當中有出現被申訴或者是被檢舉的這種我們把它列為高風險名單去加強去要求包括也透過評鑑的等地"},{"start":4538.931,"end":4551.86,"text":"如果他評鑑的等立狀況比較差的這邊我們在做查核跟關懷的那個頻率會拉高希望透過這樣的方式來主動去去嚇阻這樣子的可能性那對另外對於移工跟有指導移工個人蒐證協助移工檢舉的機制嗎"},{"start":4556.806,"end":4579.122,"text":"我們目前在1955的部分本來就可以接受這個同意的相關的一個協助所以他如果在提出這樣的申訴的時候我們其實有人員可以幫助他做這個處理另外他如果在進行這個司法或者是調查的一個程序的部分同樣也可以透過我們的這樣一個服務來做連結我覺得要讓他們了解他們才有辦法來進一步的去做申訴"},{"start":4580.163,"end":4594.678,"text":"所以我覺得這也是你們應該要做的所以最後大家期待就是我覺得買工費的詐騙觸犯刑法所以查獲應該要移送減掉還有建立委外案件的時候金主人員應該連結的管理機制要建制"},{"start":4595.434,"end":4620.237,"text":"查緝不法跟要公司協力合作通報這個要做移工的修正這個可能還是要教導他們畢竟來到我們這個國家那他如果受到一些傷害的時候可能有一些怎麼去做所以那個檢舉的指導要做所以請勞動部兩週內把具體規劃的書面資料給我這邊不知道部長這邊OK嗎應該是可以的好謝謝部長"},{"start":4624.929,"end":4650.499,"text":"好謝謝接下來請廖偉祥委員來做詢問好謝謝主席邀請我們部長來請部長"},{"start":4658.134,"end":4676.449,"text":"紅部長你好根據勞動部2024年的勞動統計年報台灣勞工平均年工時是2030個小時對不對那為全球主要國家中的第五高那亞洲主要國家中的第二高那僅次於新加坡"},{"start":4677.878,"end":4692.72,"text":"對照OECD國家的平均工時是1713個小時台灣勞工每年等於是多工作約一個月然而當我們立法院有許多委員提案要恢復7天假的時候勞動部的次長"},{"start":4693.641,"end":4710.877,"text":"李建宏卻說很多勞工希望多加班賺錢部長我想要先請教你這個次長的立場同時也是你的立場嗎也是勞動部的立場嗎那個跟文說明我其實有看了次長前兩天這段整段完整的發言"},{"start":4711.658,"end":4730.688,"text":"他的發言主要他在表達的事情是第一個工時的問題當然有檢討改善的空間第二個是確實有部分的勞工他可能因為他的薪資比較低那所以他會期待用加班的方式來增加收入所以重點是"},{"start":4734.25,"end":4743.314,"text":"所以勞動部也一直用比方說提高最低工資的方式希望能夠協助勞工來增加薪資減少他可能因為低薪而希望多加班的這種狀況我們是希望減少這種狀況那針對勞動部2024年的勞工生活及就業狀況調查"},{"start":4756.6,"end":4776.592,"text":"勞工近一年有加班者佔36.6%平均每月加班14.7個小時那其中有領到加班費的或換取補休者佔85%左右所以換句話說有15%的勞工平均每月加班14.7個小時領不到加班費是在做功德"},{"start":4777.432,"end":4797.077,"text":"部長然後勞工需要多加班賺錢的原因就是因為薪資低嘛剛剛你在講我們也是我們都知道嘛對不對所以他們被迫加班才能夠平衡開銷不是這樣嗎那為何所以為何加班這件事情好像是從次長的這個講法會讓大眾覺得說好像是給勞工的恩惠不是所以"},{"start":4798.057,"end":4818.074,"text":"所以事實上我想要講的是事實上的意思也不是這樣子事實上我想要講的意思是說包含過去我們的賴總統擔任行政院長的時候也說台灣那時候他說台灣目前整體薪資環境還沒有達到臨界點因此這次修法當時是在說一例一休是幫助勞工賺取加班費的彈性"},{"start":4820.097,"end":4845.168,"text":"但事實上我們都知道這個講法很類似所以我們說這個立場讓我們覺得說勞工明明就是想要的是加薪不是加班那我們修法也是要希望可以降低工時但是從不管是現在的賴總統當時的行政院長賴清德跟現在的勞動部官員好像讓百姓的感覺就是希望勞工多做功德多加班"},{"start":4846.246,"end":4872.734,"text":"所以我想這些數據不是這個意思所以我想這些數據我現在沒有要跟你吵這個事情不是吵我要跟你一一的不是這個意思我要跟你一一帶這個數據喔所以部長我想要說你次長的演繹是希望我們來協助讓勞工可以加薪你可以把他整句話可以看完我現在沒有叫你責怪他我跟你講我現在在跟你討論這個事實我們不是來吵架的不是這個意思部長我一個一個講啊我要講下來就是要告訴你這個數據的邏輯嘛對不對所以"},{"start":4876.724,"end":4898.617,"text":"我相信部長也知道當立法院推動這七天假讓人民有很多時間希望可以有多的時間可以休息那就是希望多加班賺錢這種我覺得這個是比較不負責任的說法但是我們要說從制度公實來看台灣不僅國定假日少於日韓那15年年資的這個特休假也少於日韓所以當然這使得我們"},{"start":4899.457,"end":4921.145,"text":"年資勞工的制度工時是遠較於日韓的勞工比較高所以現在即便加上如果到時候修法然後即便加上還勞工7天假這個台灣的制度工時跟日韓的制度工時也是在伯仲之間那另外從這個角度來看從薪資跟工時的角度台灣勞工也算是被當成廉價勞動力在使用"},{"start":4922.645,"end":4946.997,"text":"因為眾所周知我們新加坡的薪資結構是比我們高很多但是他的總工時卻跟我們差不多所以相對來講我想要講出來就是說從之前這樣子的發言我要點出來是說重點還是薪資嘛你剛也在講嘛對不對重點還是薪資嘛所以當然薪水比不上其他國有很多相關的背景因素啦但如果加薪做不到我想至少"},{"start":4947.697,"end":4953.086,"text":"我現在要討論的就是至少這個工時的部分我們要努力來讓他減少吧對不對既然"},{"start":4954.178,"end":4981.794,"text":"我想七天假已經被砍了八年我是在想是不是應該要思考把它補回來呢那內政部長劉世芳還說七天假不是一個真正的議題不宜倉促立法但是我就想要問那身為勞動部長和紅部長你的立場是什麼那政府的責任是解決勞工的低薪也不是鼓勵他們加班賺錢所以現在我們也至少要解決他的工時過長的問題所以勞動不存在理由我想不就是為了保護我們勞工嗎"},{"start":4982.734,"end":5001.011,"text":"所以針對這個七天假的議題就是想要問我們部長是不是應該要去做跟委員說明兩個部分第一個部分勞工部當然希望能夠協助勞工增加薪資所以我們推動最低工資上漲第二個我們現在推動薪資透明化"},{"start":5001.952,"end":5028.771,"text":"都是希望在提高薪資上面多做一點助力這是第一個第二件事情關於國定假日的調整的問題我們認為在一致性跟公平性的原則下面是可以合理的來做有討論的空間的好部長我就要進一步指來我們進一步講高工時導致我們勞工的健康的問題也是一個很重要的問題引發過勞死那根據2024年台北"},{"start":5029.491,"end":5054.544,"text":"我們台北醫學大學的研究工時每增加10個小時罹患心血管的疾病風險提高12%那台灣每一年過勞相關的疾病死亡者大概是500人超過500人所以一樣高工時是從前面整個論述到現在我覺得好像我們部包含這些發言包含之前的行政院長賴清德的發言到現在我覺得"},{"start":5055.504,"end":5077.252,"text":"我們政府應該要更有積極有態度的作為不是讓人家感覺不是讓百姓感覺是在冷漠或是漠視或甚至是逆勢而行所以我是很希望說部長你們是不是你應該要更明確的表態更明確的表態說你支持這個齊田價而不是去說我手裡跑的因為你站在"},{"start":5078.712,"end":5098.289,"text":"因為現在在討論國定假日現在法規的主管機關是內政部但這段時間勞動部也持續的參與這些相關的討論那所以從勞動部的角度來說關於國定假日要不要調整的問題我覺得我們有正向討論的空間"},{"start":5100.523,"end":5111.593,"text":"部長所以我想要講你不能一直說討論空間我想要問你的事情是所以勞工要的是加薪不是加班那短時間內我們薪資結構沒有辦法達成目標那是不是勞動部還是要站在你勞工的立場要表態說我支持還勞工7天假因為當時去年你的在勞動節的時候遊行部長有說替工會當時你說要替工會轉達還民7天假的訴求"},{"start":5125.785,"end":5140.096,"text":"那你現在從轉達者變成被轉達者你是不是應該要承諾願意站在當年紅委員或是現在紅部長跟勞動勞工的立場積極的更積極的去跟我們內政部長溝通然後甚至直接說你支持應該要還"},{"start":5142.278,"end":5159.153,"text":"我們持續的跟相關的部會包括內政部在交換意見包括也轉達可能勞工各種的期待這事情我們這段時間都在做所以我才說但確實現在法規的主管部會是在內政部但是就勞動部的角度跟勞動部的立場來說我們認為這個議題是有正向討論的空間"},{"start":5164.212,"end":5186.25,"text":"我希望部長你還是要找回你當初的這個找回你當初真的希望為勞工降低工時的這個初衷嚴正的甚至是為我們勞工發聲說這七天假一定要還回來另外有關於一個4至807號同工不同酬的問題和工會法相關的問題"},{"start":5189.513,"end":5198.003,"text":"性別的薪資的差距根據我們主基處在2022年的統計台灣的女性勞工的平均薪資是男性的85.4%換句話說他就是打85折"},{"start":5202.439,"end":5223.214,"text":"也就是說每年女性比男性少賺約58天的薪資那每年的同酬日也是呈現這樣的狀況嘛對不對那釋字807號的時候解釋認定勞基法的第49條第一項限制了女性勞工夜間工作行程的差別待遇違反憲法保障的性別平等一旨而且該條文說"},{"start":5225.415,"end":5236.128,"text":"解釋公布之日就開始失效了那勞動部除了目前除了發布函式以外好像沒有積極推動修法真正落實我們性別平等"},{"start":5237.096,"end":5264.188,"text":"而且根據2018年的女人民的調查27%的人曾經在職場遭遇到性別歧視20%的人表示自己正處在同工不同酬的處境所以想要請問一下勞動部有沒有什麼具體的機制來檢舉同工不同酬或是去改善同工不同酬的問題還有包含過去三年勞動部處理了多少件同工不同酬的案件認定違法的比例是多少"},{"start":5266.667,"end":5288.096,"text":"公共委員報告有關那個同工不同仇的這部分的話在性別平等工作法裡面就有規定不可以因為性別而有這種差別待遇那有這樣的這樣申訴的話那這個部分可以處罰30萬到150萬那這種情況那至於說我們現在也在努力的推動包括我們有一個事業單位自行檢視的這個同工同仇的這個"},{"start":5288.396,"end":5315.202,"text":"那請問有沒有處理了過去三年大概處理了多少這樣的案件那認定違法的比例是多少在我們在目前來說的話在那個今年起包括我們的勞檢的部分他在法尊的勞檢出去的時候就會把這個同工同仇的這個檢核表帶到事業單位請事業單位先來做檢視我們希望從這個部分來先做一個推動那第二個的話所以還沒有具體的數字沒有具體的統計違法的部分我們會後再來做不給"},{"start":5316.122,"end":5334.279,"text":"那我想要講這個就是說應該要有這樣的統計數字讓我們明確的去推動讓我們希望我們每一年的這個同仇日可以往前再縮短一些好不好謝謝委員好OK那我今天質詢到這裡謝謝好謝謝六委謝謝部長接下來請邱正軍委員來做詢問"},{"start":5346.43,"end":5363.62,"text":"謝謝主席我們一樣有請洪部長來 請洪部長部長好謝謝委員上任三個月嘛感覺有點瘦了從立法委員到部長角色完全轉換了嗎必須轉換"},{"start":5367.64,"end":5389.905,"text":"我想請問一下你還是立法委員的時候在審查預算的時候會有什麼樣的理由你會提出凍結或刪除部會預算的要求可能會督促部會去做一件事情所以我們現在你現在上任之後有我們委員們提的這些刪除或凍結你認為是怎麼樣"},{"start":5392.788,"end":5419.008,"text":"是找麻煩還是督促確實在尤其是我們看到一些筒動的一些筒動的案子裡面其實不太容易在這個筒動的案子裡面看到他是要督促我們去做某哪一件事情因為以前我們寫這個凍結的案子他會讓你去做一件事情然後這件事情做到所以你也認為凍結預算是一種督促部會的一個手段嘛"},{"start":5420.157,"end":5442.575,"text":"但是要看 要看洞結的事由你剛剛講捧動的先不講啦但是認為說 預算服邊刪除是立法委員的職責嗎我說預算啦服邊 服邊齁那刪除這個服邊的預算是立法委員的職責嗎第一個我們 我們並不覺得預算有服邊啊我問你 我不是說你這件事情"},{"start":5444.173,"end":5465.961,"text":"所以立委刪除預算是立委的職責嗎立委監督預算當然是立委的職責對嘛好這樣就好那我再請問一下你上一個通告的節目費用多少錢我現在應該是沒有你上次前兩天不是有去嗎那個沒有錢沒有錢沒有錢你就把你自己賣了就把你的靈魂賣掉了"},{"start":5467.065,"end":5473.471,"text":"你把你你你不覺得我們那天在公然造謠嗎然後還很自然看一下那個你看我覺得一派輕鬆嘛"},{"start":5475.746,"end":5497.391,"text":"你是不是有說過育嬰留職停薪補貼是因為被凍結被刪除所以發不出來那個我剛有跟前面的委員說明了我那天確實有口誤主要被凍結跟刪除的是產檢價跟賠產檢價的薪資補貼那我確實那天講成是育嬰留職停薪的補貼這是我的口誤所以你現在跟大家解釋了嗎剛剛也再講一次但是產檢價跟賠產檢價"},{"start":5501.152,"end":5526.237,"text":"但產檢價跟賠產檢價的相關的補貼被凍結跟刪除一樣會造成新手爸媽權益上面的衝擊跟受損好那我問你啊那育嬰留庭期間我們政府給申請人投保薪資的八成這經費從哪裡來六成是救保那兩成是公務預算六成是在基金嘛對不對對是救保基金兩成呢公務預算"},{"start":5528.822,"end":5545.42,"text":"兩層是公務預算那我跟你講跟育嬰留庭的相關凍結的有五個案子都是我們民進黨委員所提的案子跟連署我認為這些委員都非常認真你有看到吧"},{"start":5548.157,"end":5568.378,"text":"你覺得咧 你覺得他們這樣做對不對卓榮我跟您說了 因為我在節目上面其實我要說的是產檢架跟配產檢相關的這個津貼的補貼我其實要講的這部分所以你們 你也認為他們做的是對的嗎哪一個部分就是他現在"},{"start":5570.151,"end":5586.583,"text":"供預算的部分跟育嬰留庭相關凍結的有五個案子我跟各位說明其實本來國會就有監督預算的權力跟權限這部分我們都尊重所以也有很多我們看到的凍結案他是督促行政部門去把一件事情做得更好但"},{"start":5587.845,"end":5609.317,"text":"現在我們在很多這個公務預算的桶洞 桶山裡面我們看了這個相關的提案書看不清楚也不知道它是我們要去做哪一件事情對哪一件經濟的工作剛才你已經講了不要講那個因為我們時間沒有很多所以我問你這是我們困擾的地方我們已經知道了嘛你可以提出來好不好"},{"start":5610.077,"end":5620.757,"text":"你如果有這個自在難行你認為哪個部分不行我們在野黨都是開放的你們到現在是沒有提出來只是在那外面在那邊亂喊"},{"start":5623.143,"end":5644.034,"text":"我們到現在沒有接到你們任何一個申請說因為你有這個統三這部分你們有自在難行的部分對於民眾的衝擊我認為是確實的你們會不會應該要把你們自己的困難拿出來我們也講了很多遍了到現在沒有看到資料啊所以不要再講這個好不好那我再問你啊"},{"start":5646.201,"end":5662.675,"text":"這個勞務部今年預算多少錢預算增加多少錢今年應該是五十幾億吧五十八億嘛對不對那什麼理由增加五十八億還要說錢發不出來就是我剛剛講的你可以提出來我也很好奇啊對不對為什麼錢多了你們沒辦法做"},{"start":5666.935,"end":5684.641,"text":"我們都做過立法院還是要說關於預算增加這件事情或者預算審議重點還是要看科目尤其是很多科目是不能夠留用的那我們增加的五十幾億主要增加的關於法定義務的支出所以法定義務支出不能夠留用到被刪減跟凍結的部分"},{"start":5690.701,"end":5709.303,"text":"這個我們上禮拜其實我們之前行政院已經提出復議了可是復議被否決了但是我們有說啊你如果不行做我們可以追加預算不是嗎所以我們為什麼就是希望透過復議的方式可以為什麼要透過復議咧因為復議就是一個讓大家可以重新考慮的方式我們可以針對個案嘛不行嗎"},{"start":5710.064,"end":5737.105,"text":"所以我們之前就是針對用復議的方式來提出希望立法院可以重新考慮大家可以重新討論你現在到底要不要提出你自愛難行的部分我們當然有自愛難行的部分要不要提出來嘛如果需要的話各種方式我們都會考慮什麼時候可以提出來我們各種方式都會考慮我只是問你什麼時候不是說如果需要的話我們各種方式都會考慮包括各種現在以核限的方式的進行維護民眾的權益我們都會考慮"},{"start":5737.665,"end":5759.324,"text":"你直接提就好啦 不用那麼麻煩啦 對不對?這樣違憲嗎?所以你提出自然難行是違憲嗎?現在我們遇到最大的麻煩 剛剛委員講到麻煩我們覺得現在最大的麻煩是民眾的權益因為這樣子的預算的刪減跟凍結受損這是我們現在覺得最麻煩的事情那你就提出來嘛 對不對?各種的做法我們都會考慮 對"},{"start":5760.959,"end":5774.251,"text":"所以你要不要提像我們這個委員會這邊來提出來我說那個邱委員我們各種核限的做法在核限的做法下我們都會考慮所以在委員會提算核限嗎"},{"start":5775.763,"end":5804.225,"text":"這當然是相關做法之一嘛對 可是我們也不排除其他的可能的做法所以你們就是要你們就是要搗亂嘛我平常想你們不是要做事情不是要解決問題啊對不對我們現在開了一個門給你們走你們偏偏不走我們就是希望能夠把預算執行的好照顧民眾的權益這是我們最希望做的事情所以我們才之前開速力的爭取希望能夠你們也跟著這一台私塑電車一直跑一直衝不會轉彎"},{"start":5809.845,"end":5831.847,"text":"我們是希望讓市政能夠順利那最近內政委員會在審查國定假日你有告訴劉世芳說你支持還勞工7天假嗎我跟委員說明現在國定假日的法規主管是在內政部"},{"start":5833.323,"end":5861.229,"text":"當然這裡面牽涉到一些勞工放假的議題所以我們覺得在國家的討論國家的調整的這個議題上面從勞動部的立場我們覺得有正向討論的空間你當初還沒當公職人員的時候你主張七天假不應該和週休二日這個掛鍋在一起嘛對這是當時你的主張那後來你跟林靜怡一起提我們紀念日跟節日實施條例草案"},{"start":5861.849,"end":5888.356,"text":"就是要加放六天的紀念假日你不能跟顧立雄一樣華麗轉身之後就把當初的話都推翻啊對不對 所以我現在就是希望看到你的態度 你的態度是怎麼樣我跟委員說明我們剛才其實說針對國定假日調整的問題我們覺得從勞動部角度在一致性跟公平性的原則下面理性討論我們覺得有正向討論的空間所以你贊成嗎 七天假"},{"start":5891.277,"end":5892.619,"text":"我剛才已經說過你會照你的初衷來走嗎"},{"start":5898.919,"end":5926.292,"text":"我想照顧勞工的精神其實當然都是不會變的對在這個議題上面他的法規的主管部會是內政部那我們會願意來協助勞工相關的新生跟期待來你可以表明你的態度嗎我剛才已經說了我們認為在這個議題上面在國定假日調整的議題上面你是站在勞工這邊嗎"},{"start":5927.753,"end":5943.513,"text":"我們認為有正向討論的空間你會不會站在勞工這邊我們當然都是站在勞工這邊我就要你一句話好謝謝好謝謝邱委員謝謝部長接下來請圖權級委員來做選擇"},{"start":5956.977,"end":5963.999,"text":"好 謝謝主席先請我們調評師 市長還有我們勞保局局長市長還有局長好 市長 局長 我想請問一下我們育嬰留職挺薪的補貼在110年7月以前全部是由救保基金來支應嘛 對吧"},{"start":5986.14,"end":6005.487,"text":"這個部分的話是20%的部分之前的話是六成的部分都是救保基金後來在110年7月之後因為我們政府有加發20%所以加發20%的部分也是有就是由我們政府的公務預算來支應這沒有問題吧是"},{"start":6007.93,"end":6018.816,"text":"好那當然這也是我們政府的德政也替我們新手父母來感謝那接下來我想請問一下我們勞保師我們勞保師師長那師長我請問一下我們在114年度的總預算我們勞動保險業務被刪減凍結多少錢"},{"start":6038.769,"end":6044.197,"text":"勞動保險大的勞動保險業務是動60萬對就是在這個在這個大的勞動保險業務在委員會凍結60萬嘛我們委員會凍結60萬另外就是我的零一分支動10億"},{"start":6054.891,"end":6059.794,"text":"有一個動10億是我們民眾黨黨團針對勞工保險財務及就業保險業務1200億裡面凍結10億所以整體來講我們針對這裡面的受雇勞工育嬰留職停薪津貼加補補助經費在這個科目是並沒有凍結或者刪除的"},{"start":6079.208,"end":6084.583,"text":"對不對 只有剛剛的相互有 其他都沒有嘛是是好 那不好意思來請一下我們洪部長"},{"start":6090.694,"end":6107.669,"text":"黃部長那其實剛剛我有聽到我們兩位委員陳欽委員跟邱振興委員都有提到關於我們部長有在新聞方面接受我們周玉蔻我們這個媒體人的訪問好像有針對我們"},{"start":6110.839,"end":6130.813,"text":"受雇勞工育嬰留庭津貼的部分剛剛部長也有承認是因為說錯口誤對嘛就是針對有動山的部分動山是產檢家跟陪產檢家對所以就是這部分是搞錯了口誤嘛剛剛我有聽到是口誤那我想請問一下部長你是什麼時候知道自己在這部分是說錯的"},{"start":6133.455,"end":6148.188,"text":"因為我真的最近開了太多暈流亭的相關的會議所以當時在訪問的時候可能下意識的講成暈流亭那是我們委員剛剛詢問的時候你才知道接受週一寇訪問的時候說錯還是後來就知道了後來就知道"},{"start":6148.809,"end":6168.26,"text":"那後來知道怎麼沒有趕快立即澄清讓這個謠言在網路上一直發酵呢因為他還是 當然今天很謝謝委員給我這個機會我們可以在這裡跟說明澄清當時被動刪的主要是產檢價跟配產檢價所以他一樣還是會影響到新手爸媽相關的權益"},{"start":6169.029,"end":6187.643,"text":"對 但是我們希望大家比較重視的針對受僱勞工育嬰留庭的部分居然部長都節目受訪結束之後就知道這個是錯的我覺得因為部長是我們勞動部單位最高的主管機關因為你所說的話"},{"start":6188.383,"end":6214.291,"text":"大家都信以為真而且非常重視那如果連我們最高主管單位主管說的話那居然有錯應該就要馬上更正結果居然讓這幾天在網路謠言一直在發酵那所以造成我們民眾之間大家很多的恐慌啊所以謝謝今天委會給我這個機會我在這邊就是把它澄清清楚我那天是有口誤"},{"start":6215.331,"end":6236.311,"text":"對 部長我也希望這個事情如果當然我們人都有可能犯錯我們都有可能說錯話但是知道錯應該盡快要澄清不然大家都會誤以為部長跟我們週一扣這個名嘴好像刻意在節目上散播不時的謠言然後讓這個謠言一直在民間在網路上散播"},{"start":6236.491,"end":6254.792,"text":"不是這樣子我那天主要是討論的事情是說這個預算的煽動會對於我們很多的尤其是生產有生育的家庭產生的衝擊跟影響那我希望那既然部長今天針對收穫勞工預預停留的部分確定我們都是沒有動沒有煽的嗎"},{"start":6256.367,"end":6281.253,"text":"因為說我當時在說的部分主要是針對應該是要針對是我心中在想的是產檢家跟陪產檢家好沒關係啊那就是說針對這部分是沒有動三的我們就事實來澄清只是希望以後當然如果真的說錯我們希望在第一時間趕快澄清不應該我們最高主管單位的主管說出的話沒有澄清之後讓這些謠言一直在網路散播"},{"start":6282.233,"end":6288.436,"text":"好那接下來不好意思部長我們請問一下先請我的調評師黃師長請問一下今年我們產檢價跟賠產檢價還是還有我們賠產價薪資補助在動山的部分是民眾黨團刪除了800萬嘛對不對"},{"start":6308.339,"end":6314.244,"text":"報告委員是刪除800萬另外還有一些凍結對 刪除的部分是800萬嘛是那他針對這刪除800萬的部分他是在整個勞動條件及就業平等下還是針對我們產檢價 賠產價 賠產檢的部分"},{"start":6331.38,"end":6354.859,"text":"報告是在整個勞動條件及就業平等的向下但是因為撇開那個所謂的補助款的部分來說那勞動條件及就業平等的實際上我們在推動的一般的這個業務部分的預算也只有844萬那如果把這個800萬的三減全部放到業務費的那一塊的話那大概是全年都不能動"},{"start":6355.82,"end":6358.902,"text":"所以我剛剛會先講說產檢價還有賠產檢、賠產價這部分其實我們整個項目3.8百萬民眾黨針對這部分是針對整個勞動條件及就業平等的業務"},{"start":6373.029,"end":6397.668,"text":"並不是單就針對產檢價賠產檢跟賠產價這部分對不對你可以從你的這張圖上面可以很清楚的看到我要補充兩點第一點是就像我說的刪除了八百萬但同時也凍結了將近兩千萬然後在這張圖上面你可以看到其實在產檢價跟賠產檢價的補助的那個項目裡面幾乎佔了這一整大項的九成"},{"start":6398.829,"end":6415.728,"text":"所以三八百萬跟動兩千萬是一定會影響到產檢價跟配產檢價的這個補貼的發放的這是一定會影響的好所以我們現在就是你可以看你們其實數字是很清楚的因為我大象的就是我們先理清一下啦就是"},{"start":6418.019,"end":6435.343,"text":"刪除這800萬他是針對整個勞動條件及就業平等這個業務的大象並不是單就針對產檢價 賠產檢價跟賠產價沒有錯但這個獎補助站裡面佔了非常非常大的比例你可以看到我的意思說不是針對性嘛那只是說這個整個項目的800萬是由我們"},{"start":6440.284,"end":6466.321,"text":"勞動部這邊去做調整但是並不是要針對我們這個產檢價的部分去做刪除對不對但是在這個大項上面如果要刪800還要動2000這個是一定會影響到產檢價、賠產檢價這個項目的在數字上面是很清楚的好那我們我們整個勞動條件及就業平等業務其實它這個項目齁大概是總經費大概是1億嘛"},{"start":6467.52,"end":6496.189,"text":"大概九千七百多萬九千七百多就大概一億嘛那所以基本上我們並不是針對新手父母這個產檢價的部分那當然部長剛剛講的我們也了解但是我們今天要講的就是說我們這一億裡面刪除的八百萬並不是針對我們這一部分而是由勞動部裡面自己去做調整所以部長你的意思是說這九千七百多萬裡面"},{"start":6497.994,"end":6511.056,"text":"這刪除了800萬你是針對這一部分來做刪除是嗎這個跟委員說明刪除了800萬動了2000萬三家動其實占這一整項將近要三成"},{"start":6512.25,"end":6540.446,"text":"那剛剛可以看到產檢加賠產檢加相關的補助其實佔了這一整項的九成所以這三根洞是影響一定會影響到產檢加跟賠產檢加的在數字上面其實我們就可以看出來了對沒關係所以重點在勞動條件集就會評等裡面這九千七百多萬刪了八百萬但是這八百萬是勞動兩千啊然後但是凍結的部分是因為希望你們提出計畫加以改善就解凍了嘛"},{"start":6540.782,"end":6558.277,"text":"但是山跟洞這個洞的比例很高山加洞加起來相信三成對 但是洞是可以解洞的只是說希望我們針對沒有做好的地方去做加以改善好 那沒關係那一個重點我們之前針對我們產檢價薪資 賠產價這個薪資補助我們在112年的時候也發生過預算不足那請問師長那時候預算不足我們是怎麼來處理的"},{"start":6570.845,"end":6596.187,"text":"報告委員當初那一年的話因為主計總署的估算跟我們的估算他的數字上面編的比較少所以當年的話金額不足金額不足的話到了發現錢會不夠的時候那我們只好先向主計總署去爭取看二倍金能不能有但是那時候回覆是說沒有錢那我們就自己那想像一下好沒關係我講比較快啦直接"},{"start":6596.867,"end":6620.367,"text":"是不是後來我們直接跟救保基金短期周轉那個部分的話是確實有跟救保基金當時做一個短期周轉但是要付利息對 所以我們有看過這個公文就是說如果這部分真的沒有或者不夠的時候是可以由救保基金來周轉而且這部分也曾經過有這個案例嘛 對不對"},{"start":6621.667,"end":6650.887,"text":"我想要跟你說過去有這個案例但是其實那時候立法院的預算中心也針對當時的案例要求勞動部要妥慎檢討第二個這樣子周轉的做法它並不是一個預算使用的最正軌的方式因為它的前提也要包括我們的基金監理會要能夠同意同時也要在隔年的預算要能夠編得出來經過立法院的同意這裡面是有很多"},{"start":6651.027,"end":6671.722,"text":"不確定性的所以我不能夠說只要過去有過這樣周轉的案例現在就想怎麼刪就怎麼刪反正不夠你就去借錢就是不對的並不是這樣所以我的意思說只是說如果真的不夠我們是有這個是其中一個方法甚至像剛剛吉他委員也有提過"},{"start":6672.382,"end":6691.363,"text":"如果真的自然難行我們也可以用追加預算只要提出合理性真的有需求我們是可以追加預算我說這都是其中的方法我們就是因為覺得我們爭取預算是有合理性所以之前才提出復議案很希望大院能夠同意這個復議案來重新討論這裡面可能會在執行裡面會遇到的困難"},{"start":6692.384,"end":6703.693,"text":"所以有這個有這個案例的我們並不能說只要有過去有周轉的例子所以我現在想怎麼編想怎麼刪反正夠或不夠都無所謂反正到時候去借就這個當時預算中心也叫我們妥順檢討對部長就像我們剛剛講的其實剛剛針對我們"},{"start":6711.358,"end":6732.018,"text":"我們的項目裡面喔 刪了八百萬 但是八百萬是去做調整 但是我覺得現在 還有動兩千好 動 那都可以解動嘛 那我們行政院喔 我覺得現在我們因為預算喔 今年編的三兆多我們覺得行政院就像一個大胖子啊 那你今天"},{"start":6733.335,"end":6758.205,"text":"這麼肥胖我們希望你做個健康的方式去做調整做瘦身但是你應該是用健康的方式去做調整去做減肥啊可是並不是叫你把這個預算太多去做刪除你一定要用斷手斷腳的方式來減重啊我覺得應該有很多健康的方式不應該用這麼極端惡劣的方式去做這樣子的處理的方式圖案就像這張圖上面寫的刪除800"},{"start":6760.768,"end":6779.651,"text":"也有凍結20%將近2000萬其實在這張圖上面三根凍加起來將近是三成不是部長你也知道那個凍結的部分是為了監督政府針對很多預算執行上面沒有做得很完善的地方所以提出希望我們"},{"start":6780.251,"end":6802.488,"text":"不會把做不好的地方加以改善之後提出改善計畫我們就會馬上解凍嘛所以這個凍的部分是良善的並不是刻意去阻撓我們的預算讓我們政府沒有辦法執行啦要是說如果全部都不能影響的話那難道是我們在這個來問條件與就業平衡業務裡面其他原本過去做的全部都要刪除全部都不能做這一樣是影響業務的執行啊"},{"start":6804.409,"end":6824.958,"text":"三減八百凍結將近百分之二十兩千這就是事實啊這就是會影響這個業務下面在這個勞動條件級就業平等業務下面的執行那因為時間的關係我是建議啦像我們勞動條件級就業平等這三除八百萬其實有很多地方可以去做調整並不是一定要針對這個"},{"start":6826.118,"end":6832.182,"text":"大家都覺得很重要新手父母這個賠產價去減這個800萬要去找有些地方真的是多餘的錢並不是要去找這個很重要我覺得像我們的預算的審核我們就像一個大胖子我們是減肥要瘦身要健康並不是要用斷手斷腳的方式來減肥"},{"start":6847.473,"end":6861.005,"text":"如果立法院覺得哪些部分真的有瘦身的必要或者是預算執行有問題其實要求我們要減少或者是合理的監督我覺得這都沒有問題可是現在我們遇到的狀況是先刪了以後你自己再去找"},{"start":6862.614,"end":6884.639,"text":"甚至這個找的過程裡面就是壞事因為產檢架跟陪產檢架的薪資補助就是佔這一整大項裡面的最大的比例甚至是九成沒有我相信到我們大家今天在這邊我們都是平和理性如果有什麼東西自然難行我相信可以提出隨時都可以做調整而且我們在整個大項目的"},{"start":6886.18,"end":6906.293,"text":"刪減、凍除並不是要針對重要的項目所以就像我講我們是為了要健康多餘花的錢我們去做調整我們監督政府審查預算但是並不是要你去刪除我們覺得非常重要要用到的錢所以這部分我希望我們大家都可以好好來討論在這個項目在大廈裡面佔比喻太大了我簡單讓兩兆說得更清楚了實驗超過很多了"},{"start":6912.017,"end":6921.903,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來請 對不起我先來宣告一下待會盧縣議委員質詢完畢之後我們休息十分鐘好 接下來請王育民委員來做宣達好 謝謝主席我們有請洪部長來 請部長謝謝王委員"},{"start":6939.746,"end":6953.86,"text":"部長這個勞工高喊還我七天假你之前也去參加過他們的活動對不對有沒有去參加過七天假嗎對他們的訴求我記得有一次你有去參加過你自己都忘記了"},{"start":6955.142,"end":6976.578,"text":"應該是去年 你有代表民進黨去參加過去接受陳情 接受訴求所以你完全知道勞工他的訴求嘛那這個在內政委員會呢也排了這個恢復國定假日期先假的這個議案那內政部部長是公然的反對"},{"start":6977.839,"end":6991.967,"text":"所以他是不贊成 甚至說這不是真正的議題內政部部長反對還給勞工7天假 請問勞動部部長你是支持還是反對你只要直接回答支持或反對就好"},{"start":7000.604,"end":7026.699,"text":"這是一個立場的表態在國定假日的法規的主管機關是內政部那當然從勞動部的立場我們認為國定假日的調整的這個議題那如果可以在一致性跟公平性的原則下面做討論的話我們覺得有正向討論的空間你的回答很模糊正向討論的空間代表你是支持嗎我們覺得有正向討論的空間"},{"start":7028.342,"end":7044.295,"text":"你不敢講出支持兩個字耶 洪部長你是勞動部部長耶支持勞動部部長站在全國千萬勞工的立場然後支持他們還給他們七天假這件事情有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":7045.436,"end":7068.697,"text":"王委員 我還是要說這一個法規的主管是在內政部當然啦 我是問勞動部部長你是贊成還是反對嘛對 我們覺得有正向討論的空間那是支持喔 我可以這樣講嗎我們覺得有正向討論的空間你怎麼一直在重複因為你的問題一直重複我叫你回答支持或反對這麼簡單的問題 我們的部長竟然回答不出來還是你根本就不敢回答"},{"start":7070.073,"end":7096.881,"text":"你也不敢講支持你也不敢講反對我很清楚說了我們勞動部認為有正向討論的好那我就解讀說洪森漢支持還給勞工七天假那個我們覺得我們在政策討論的時候我覺得都應該要這個語意上面可以更精準這是我是希望說政策的討論要明確啊語意精準然後盡量不去做各種講話那我說洪森漢反對還給勞工七天假"},{"start":7098.249,"end":7121.682,"text":"這個一樣也是這個不精準的簡化的詮釋啊其實部長你這樣子讓人家還蠻失望的大家說你從基層上來你最了解勞工的心聲結果在這種應該要表態的立場上面你還是用一種模糊以對不敢完全的表達自己站穩自己的立場如果勞動部部長都不敢站穩自己的立場"},{"start":7122.942,"end":7128.963,"text":"內政部反對那請問行政院團隊裡面有哪一個內閣是支持還給勞工七天假的當勞動部都不敢幫勞工發聲那請問勞工要依靠誰為什麼我們歷任的這個勞動部部長都是往資方靠攏呢然後當時說換你上來會比較好因為你是從基層上來最理解勞工我看也沒有這樣子啊"},{"start":7148.447,"end":7163.318,"text":"你該表態的時候你現在是不是當了官之後也不太敢表態了還要看上億還是你要看內政部的臉色因為人家內政部部長已經不同意了你就不敢站在勞動部部長立場大聲的說我跟他立場不一樣我認為應該再還給勞工七天假"},{"start":7167.1,"end":7193.981,"text":"勞動部也是大的執政團隊議員該表達的事情我們會表達但這個議題的主管法規主管單位是內政部所以我們有我們的態度那我們的態度就是覺得這個議題有正向討論的空間那就是要增加七天假嘛應該就可以下這樣的標嘛你不反對吧正向討論的空間是什麼就是你支持嘛我們覺得這個議題有討論的空間"},{"start":7196.55,"end":7202.792,"text":"好那就是你支持我要讓你看一下那個數據我們現在的年總工時其實是不降反升近5年來從108年到現在他呈現的幅度本來有跌到谷底了就是不到這個一年不到2000現在去年又回升了到2030了所以在這樣的一個情況底下我們的勞工面對這一個工時過場的情況其實是沒有真正改善的"},{"start":7224.921,"end":7243.472,"text":"如果可以多給他們這7天假我想是會有效的降低他的年總工時這個是數學的問題一看就知道而你看到這個我們跟日韓的特休日的比較我們對於新進的這個勞工我們現在給的休假天數是比較少的"},{"start":7243.932,"end":7269.68,"text":"日本在第一年的時候是10天韓國是15天他們其實都很高我們是到後面年資的時候就是你的年資可能超過十幾年的時候我們才往上加所以這個當然對於比較年輕的勞工來講他現在面臨到的情況就是工時長國定假日少然後這個特休日數在第一年的時候也是相對日韓來講是比較低的所以我想勞工團體他們才會提出來嘛"},{"start":7271.701,"end":7297.753,"text":"希望可以多增加這一個國定假日的7天假那我希望在這件事情上面部長你真的要站穩你的立場你搖擺的時候這個勞工的訴求就不可能達成因為連部長都不挺都不支持你的態度都不明確這個是不會有答案的接下來我要講的是這個防制霸凌專章對於保護勞工也是非常重要我要問你們你們的草案預計什麼時候對外公告"},{"start":7300.182,"end":7313.221,"text":"我們的草案目前其實已經在最後的收尾的階段那我們希望在這個會期大概我們也希望能夠盡快的把它預告出來然後能夠在這個會期送到立法院"},{"start":7314.285,"end":7330.849,"text":"對 什麼時候要預告因為最後有些條文我們還在做相關的這一週會對外預告嗎可能沒有辦法到這一週這麼快那我們會盡快那是不是可以下週就對外可以預告我也希望盡快"},{"start":7333.51,"end":7350.54,"text":"我希望下週就可以預告那這其中有幾個部分我覺得很重要的我希望在你們的草案裡面要去定的更完整一個就是你的申訴機制你現在有沒有要求一定規模的企業他要建立申訴管道比照這個新工法"},{"start":7353.361,"end":7371.026,"text":"現在是應該是往這個方向就是在申訴調查包括這些相關你們現在是多少規模你們現在初步的草案多少規模要建立申訴法我們是有一定規模的企業的要求但是詳細的內容等到我們預告的時候會讓委員這邊知道你們現在應該有大概的方向有"},{"start":7375.384,"end":7397.843,"text":"這比較新公法嗎?是30號嗎?比較新公法嗎?因為這個法規大家的討論都會去參考新公法的概念那另外一個霸凌的調查應要透明化你們現在外部委員佔的比例有沒有要求要多少?我要求至少要半數我想現在大家都認為外部委員是很重要的所以會過半嘛對不對?在你們的草案裡面有沒有過半?"},{"start":7400.151,"end":7429,"text":"有有過半嗎好我要求一定要這樣子才不會有關關相互的問題第三個是你的再申訴的管道的機制因為之前你們這個勞動部發生的很不幸的公務人員被霸凌然後致死案之後他遇到的問題就是第一次調查是沒有成立是第二次調查再調查輿論嘩然他才成立所以你們所謂的再申訴機制的救濟管道有沒有納入你們的草案裡面"},{"start":7429.921,"end":7441.577,"text":"當然救濟的做法這個當然這個都會在我們相關的法規裡面去做有納入嘛對不對我要求一定要這個再申訴的機制就是要納入裡面有嗎"},{"start":7444.443,"end":7469.055,"text":"細節的部分我想我們在預告的時候會讓大家知道這個是方向性的問題有沒有納入再申訴我們有設計有設計對不對我要求就是要設計進去那這個部分是大家很期待的所以我希望你們這個修法的速度也是要加快你們草案也可以盡快在下個禮拜就是對外公告讓外界再給予你們更多的意見我們也希望盡快"},{"start":7469.815,"end":7487.752,"text":"那最後一個是你的就業安定基金現在這個濫用7000萬這個之前大家已經討論很多你現在有一個測定作為那這個測定作為它其實不是法律它就是你公布的一個做法不是我們是會修訂法規命令"},{"start":7488.032,"end":7503.826,"text":"好 那我就問你你現在所有的策進作為是不是通通都可以入法你是選擇性的我看你有一些有有要修訂在你的就業安定基金收支保管及運用辦法但有一些其實是沒有你並不是全面性的入法"},{"start":7504.352,"end":7530.834,"text":"有一些會是行政規則但也有一些用法規命令我是希望你們回去再研議因為這次的整個救安基金所暴露的這些問題代表我們過去在管理跟運作上的確不夠嚴謹那既然你們要入法你如果覺得你這六項策進作為都是很到位而且很重要的你應該要研議每一項都在你的運用辦法裡面就是要加進去就是"},{"start":7531.374,"end":7548.392,"text":"你應該讓他法治化以免現在是紅部長覺得這個很重要下一次以後可能不知道換哪一位部長上來覺得不重要他就可以做該遵守或不遵守他其實是沒有一個法令的要求的這個我希望你們回去你們再解釋這個測定座我們已經在進行中了"},{"start":7550.834,"end":7574.84,"text":"那對於規範的形式上面當然我們也可以再做一些思考好你們再回去研議好不好我要求的就是說希望這整個可以是更嚴謹的其實我們是把它修進我們的法規命令裡面好很好那你們就是整個你們再給我一份報告就是哪一些是修法規命令哪一些是修到你的運用辦法我希望看到的是你整個是一個很嚴謹的做法好不好好謝謝"},{"start":7577.182,"end":7593.841,"text":"好謝謝王委員謝謝部長我們來這個另做宣告剛剛是有說盧縣立委員選擇完之後我們就休息十分鐘那因為剛剛有王委員跟蘇委員"},{"start":7595.406,"end":7609.078,"text":"這兩位王批跟蘇批的協商結果是等蘇昭偉選打結束完之後我們再做休息啦所以在這邊做這樣的宣告請各位體諒一下那兩位時間一到我們就消音囉好請盧委員來謝謝不用超過來有請部長來有請部長"},{"start":7624.195,"end":7637.828,"text":"部長好 部長好 針對我們現在討論的時事 比如說七天假這些我覺得在我們原住民的觀點來看 我覺得還是很幸福因為我們還沒有到達那個層級 討論七天假的這個層級"},{"start":7639.77,"end":7660.678,"text":"因為我們還是在討論都會員住民工地的杯葛也就是說我們在看這個報導就是今年的1月份我們接龍市的一個理事長原住民的理事長叫班奈他說我們現在有一個工地的一個潛規則三不一要不能叫救護車不能就近就醫不能住院也就是說"},{"start":7662.379,"end":7689.125,"text":"現在如果你發生就是工地的意外的時候為了避免就是被停工啊或這些處分啊他們就會做這些規避的動作你不覺得我們的工作環境還是這樣的時候我們怎麼去討論7天的假確實原住民的勞工跟勞工朋友在很多工作的情形上面是特別辛苦對我這還要跟你說的就是說現在因為我們"},{"start":7689.858,"end":7709.011,"text":"大部分的工作都是做最高的比如說工地鷹架最深的比如說礦業最遠的遠洋漁業然後我們現在的勞動大概是將近有我們的29萬也就是占了1200萬的裡面的剛剛好跟我們的人口比例差不多在2.5左右可是我們現在的那個勞動檢查讓我們這些"},{"start":7710.872,"end":7725.358,"text":"可以拿到傷害補償還有容易受傷這些沒有辦法即使得到一些需要的幫忙比如說現在有高達五成拿不到所謂的工商你覺得你有這方面的一個解決方案嗎"},{"start":7726.82,"end":7747.458,"text":"跟委員報告凡是有重大傷害說我們檢查機構都去檢查檢查對勞工保護我們有勞工的那個職在個管的服務會進入進去做就協助不過申請傷病給付啊私人給付我們都會積極來處理那是因為有保險的部分可是很多在工地然後那些工頭為了方便起見常常都沒有納入保險"},{"start":7747.858,"end":7763.298,"text":"報告委員因為我們災保法通過之後這個就是應該就是強制加保如果沒有加保我們還是會依照保險局部給予那後會不會再跟勞工做求償所以這230月災保法的進度之後我們對無加保的勞工會有比較好的保護那剛剛委員詮詢的部分"},{"start":7764.219,"end":7789.822,"text":"我們會透過跟地方政府再進一步合作就是漏掉的勞工我們趕快把他接上來那如果說我還是聽到這些東西的話我直接找你嗎沒問題因為這些事情常常會跑到辦公室來尋求幫忙確實我們發現營造工地裡面承攬承攬在轉包的部分是很明顯的但是即使是這樣子受僱的勞工不管是原住民或是一般民眾只要是他有工作的執行我們都認為他會在我們保護的範圍內"},{"start":7791.303,"end":7806.213,"text":"好 那針對我們所謂的照顧不離職的部分我們還是發現我們原住民因為結婚生育或者是因為家庭照顧的部分還是有高達9.4%是因為這些原因離開的你覺得部長你可以做哪些努力"},{"start":7808.302,"end":7826.349,"text":"我們其實當然希望整體的現在討論在照顧不離職裡面就是希望能夠是不是能夠在這個工時的做法上或者是在請假或留庭的做法上面能夠提供勞工更多的彈性是不是因為他的就業環境不友善"},{"start":7827.65,"end":7851.828,"text":"也許比方說像確實原住民族他也許他工作的類型會有一些他的特性可是我們是希望說這個整體的照顧因為照顧部體的討論的其實包括原住民跟非原住民都在這個政策規劃的範圍裡面那我還是希望這個9%是能夠及早能夠進步好不好當然加上我們現在看到平均的薪資如果4萬以下大概70%"},{"start":7854.45,"end":7881.973,"text":"3萬以下的還有30%我就說我們原住民的平均薪資大概還是落在這個區間那政府有做努力那我有看了一下就是說原民會有針對我們促進原住民就業獎勵計畫這個部分他大概在每個縣市全國大概有600位去年有600位受到補助可是好你說600位那我們目前的失業率來看的話失業率我們是3.46也就是有一萬多人是"},{"start":7882.213,"end":7900.722,"text":"那可是我們的再就業率大概是12.45%也就是說其實這個補助大概只有一半而已就是說真正需要的人目前是600位可是我們的再就業率是12.45也就是1200人左右所以這個部分我想這個缺口是不是需要勞動部來幫忙"},{"start":7903.201,"end":7926.594,"text":"跟委員報告這個有關原住民朋友的在居的獎勵是我們園民會的一個措施那當然勞動部以往在跟園民會有在這個跨部會的平台上會做這個協調所以這個部分我們會透過我們的相關的服務的據點來協助園會把這個措施讓更多人知道我已經直接告訴你了目前的缺大概就是一半了理解園民會幫忙了一半那勞動部這邊能不能再努力我知道政府有做了可是就是做得不夠好不好"},{"start":7927.034,"end":7944.823,"text":"這個我們在做部會的協調 上次部長你來拜訪辦公室的時候我有跟你講到常態性的這些我們安心即時上工的計畫比如說環境清潔文化傳承導覽解說能夠變成常態性的讓很多人因為工作或因為文化的關係"},{"start":7945.902,"end":7959.371,"text":"他被認同的關係他不想離開部落他需要一份工作來溫飽他不一定要很多的錢可是如果說可能一萬塊左右或者兩萬塊左右他就覺得很滿足了像這種即時安心工作的話其實可以做長遠的規劃"},{"start":7961.069,"end":7981.642,"text":"那個跟路人報告我們其實我們也可以來看一下現在我們一些就業輔助就業服務相關的計劃或者是裡面有沒有在哪些部分那特別適合來跟包括像委員辦公室或原住民的朋友來去做更直接的對接的合作的部分我們非常非常樂意來檢討"},{"start":7983.063,"end":8003.057,"text":"我也樂見你對安定就業基金的這個部分的一些改善的面向你大概解釋得很清楚了不過裡面獨獨缺了就是安定原住民的就業狀況其實原住民的勞工有29萬多人那失業的大概1萬多人其實如果你可以改善這些的話其實對我們原住民的生活會有很大的進步"},{"start":8004.738,"end":8025.512,"text":"可以嗎?至少這個面向裡面你那麼多面向裡面沒有一個是我們會來我們會來請法案署在特別針對原住民的就業的工作的狀況看我們怎麼樣可以提供更多的協助還有移工的部分現在要開放移工可是有15%點多的大概將近16%的原住民是被取代的這個被取代的部分你覺得應該"},{"start":8026.593,"end":8050.828,"text":"要怎麼來進步我想從勞工部的角度來說我們當然會認為本土勞工的就業權利本國的勞工就業權利應該是要優先的可是百分之十六很多所以這個部分要盡量去避免不然我們越來越多人失去工作已經生活已經很困難又失去工作的話又被取代的話不是變成次等工作我們希望這個要以本國勞工優先我覺得這是我們很清楚的立場"},{"start":8051.468,"end":8070.409,"text":"目前你來的時候有講到資產霸凌的部分其實我們也收到很多資產霸凌的一些申訴可是我希望在那麼多的努力當中比如說我希望能夠公佈它的霸凌的樣態霸凌的單位目前處理的進度不然申訴員他永遠覺得他被漠視"},{"start":8071.61,"end":8096.406,"text":"所以我是覺得說因為上次比如說講那個單位你就說它的全職單位是哪裡哪裡可是當然我們沒有辦法去細看每一個人發生的那個事情可是如果有一個網站可以讓申訴人知道說我的霸凌的樣態被公佈了我霸凌的單位被公佈了然後我目前的處理進度是怎麼樣讓申訴人覺得說他有被重視我覺得是不是可以朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":8097.53,"end":8111.118,"text":"我想保護申訴人的權益然後包括他的救濟的管道包括保護他的相關的個資包括他的權利我想這當然都是我們在設計這個機制裡面非常重要的環節"},{"start":8112.479,"end":8136.546,"text":"我還是就做一個問題來問部長我剛剛看了你的那個報告裡面大概我們的職災給付大概50億左右然後去年那個重大職災的死亡大概287我相信這裡面的很多是族人那我們的高空掉落的不僅沒有減少反而增加那我想知道這個50億裡面希望你三個月以內給我一個報告就是說50億裡面有多少是給原住民的"},{"start":8136.926,"end":8148.671,"text":"好不好,讓我能夠掌握好,我們來請,這我們請我們的夜館單位來提供,謝謝好,謝謝接下來請王振旭委員來做選擇"},{"start":8156.533,"end":8168.064,"text":"我想感謝主席能夠讓我有機會利用時間再繼續來請教部長也謝謝我們蘇召偉給我這個機會那我們就請部長主席我可以請部長來質詢嗎"},{"start":8179.913,"end":8204.779,"text":"今天我就針對這個強化育兒跟老人照顧的部分來就教一下部長早上部長已經把這個部裡面的很多業務都做了非常充分的說明就開始針對這個彈性育嬰假的部分其實事辦結果在3月3號部長也做了說明結果不如預期主要原因是因為大家其實更期待的是有關於這個更彈性的部分"},{"start":8206.641,"end":8224.502,"text":"讓運用更方便另外針對丟子停薪又擔心這個行政程序太匆忙無法完成這些缺失我相信大家一開始其實也都了解所以如果有機會再試辦的話能不能根據這些問題做一些建議包括我們所看到的"},{"start":8225.063,"end":8246.961,"text":"把這個產價賠產價還有等等的這些都能夠當作一個生產預備價來做調控另外就是如果婦女她以在一定週數以上有流產的話其實她心情已經非常不好那能不能也把她納為這個保障的範圍另外也可以提供更有彈性的育嬰假那在這個過程裡面有一些有心"},{"start":8247.541,"end":8261.853,"text":"彈線運營價的這個補助的可能性這是我們期待在下一波如果能夠再試辦的話能夠處理的那當然我們也希望擴大試辦的範圍包括能不能夠考慮接受政府補獎補助或者是抵減稅的這些企業都能夠來參加這份部長"},{"start":8265.663,"end":8294.104,"text":"因為這個關於照顧部體制的議題其實很多委員都非常關心那我們現在在也在去年的事辦的經驗之下做出檢討那確實現在整個檢討的方向就是希望能夠在相關的包括請假包括留庭等等的制度上面怎麼更大的提高他的彈性那讓這些相關的制度對於需要的"},{"start":8295.104,"end":8323.84,"text":"可能也不只是婦女啦也包括有些部分也是先生也會用到那就是夫妻雙方都可以覺得這個可以更好用所以可以普及率可以更高那這部分是我們現在的方向那這個方向就是希望說能夠去兼顧讓這個我們的勞工朋友他不用要去為了要照顧對家庭的照顧對小朋友的照顧而必須要離開職場那這對我們的勞動力的缺乏也不是好事"},{"start":8324.38,"end":8344.121,"text":"是 其實同樣的很多人很關心這個國定價值調整的部分我們期待就是在這個研議的過程裡面是針對這些休假制度的調整是對勞工最有利的方向來演繹那這部分讓麻煩部長持續來多關注跟了解謝謝這是有關於第一部分"},{"start":8344.722,"end":8365.871,"text":"那再過來就是財務法通過以後其實對勞保財務相對應該是受到蠻大的影響包括這個中央可能會少了3700億可以運用的部分會影響到這個勞保的撥補那如何來因應這樣的困難我們也知道目前這個勞保撥補還不是法定的義務支出"},{"start":8366.531,"end":8393.68,"text":"所以目前也不希望說透過修法去調降幾戶那未來有沒有考慮勞保撥補能夠入法把它變成一個法定義務之處我想其實現在在財化法的這樣子之下如果這個這樣子修訂後的財化法真的我說如果如果他真的上路執行確實中央整體的財源會有很大的限制跟限縮那勞保的"},{"start":8395.63,"end":8403.382,"text":"確實現在不是法定物之初但是我想政府會一直是秉持著我們會負最終支付責任的政策的目前的政策的態度就是這樣"},{"start":8404.696,"end":8425.389,"text":"只是確實現在會對於 因為像去年我們是撥了今年114年是撥了1300億那包括疫後的部分是1300億 整體是1300億可是在採訪法如果真的上路執行後還能不能維持這樣的水位這個是我們會比較擔心的事情"},{"start":8426.389,"end":8440.624,"text":"好那我們就麻煩部長持續再往這邊對至少這個勞工但至少政策的態度上面還是會是政府政府是在是會負最後的責任態度上面政策上面現在就是這樣是對可是我們確實會會有財務法通過後的擔心"},{"start":8443.427,"end":8462.788,"text":"好那再過來就是有關護理人力的缺失大家都很期待趕快有好的一些人力可以來進行這個補充包括這個中階附著的人力的運用將來能不能夠盡速而落實那我也了解部長現在在跟歐湖部部長那邊已經有一些"},{"start":8463.468,"end":8481.469,"text":"原理的措施我們也期待能夠讓了解這個措施在未來執行的時候可以有更便利因為這個會牽扯到未來這個開放80歲以上免糧表的部分如何能夠適中 氣重則輕讓有需要照顧的這些長者他真的能夠得到好的照顧"},{"start":8482.17,"end":8492.018,"text":"那如果還可以的話那就不一定要使用到這些我們的外勞的人力等等這個部分就麻煩部長這邊持續跟衛福部這邊來做一些持續的研議這是請部長來處理的"},{"start":8497.677,"end":8521.268,"text":"那最後其實還有一點點時間也了解針對於這個就業安定基金的合理運用今天很多很多委員都非常的關心那如何有效管理其實大家最期待的那部長上任以後也面對這樣的困境做了非常多的努力那也期待這個就業安定基金的合理運用跟有效管理是可以讓國人"},{"start":8522.408,"end":8548.048,"text":"能夠信賴而且是可以來支持的那這部分可不可以請部長再利用一點點時間來做更完整或進一步的說明關於救援基金我想未來的部分那這個我們其實提出了一個精進把關的做法剛剛其實很多委員也也有來去詢問那所以未來我們當然就會從用途面從管理面從資訊面來去更"},{"start":8551.414,"end":8566.192,"text":"更有效的來去管理交換基金希望過去發生一些狀況一些爭議不要再發生那第二個是針對過去的部分那現在這個過去現在可能會被指教的一些案例或項目那現在審計部也正在查"},{"start":8566.733,"end":8593.032,"text":"那剛剛其實也幾個委員有來說這個審計部查狀況最後我們當然會尊重審計部在審計工作裡面的判定那相關的資料在審計部他的結果出來之後但因為這個現在還在審計部的整個專案審計工作裡面那在這個結果出來之後我們當然也願意把我們的一些相關的回覆那"},{"start":8594.423,"end":8621.084,"text":"如果需要提供的話再提供好那這個部分我相信部長如果透過審計部最後提供給我們了解或更多相關的這些運用的話我想國人就會更因為現在還在審計部的專案審計的過程裡面那對於資訊公開我們就覺得很多資訊是可以公開可是最後審議部的報告結果出來之後那該提供給大家去了解的我想我們的態度是開放的"},{"start":8624.226,"end":8632.369,"text":"好那就請部長跟所有同仁繼續努力好謝謝謝謝接下來請蘇清泉 趙偉來做選擇謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝趙偉然後請部長"},{"start":8653.351,"end":8674.389,"text":"說得很好部長辛苦了我看你接任到現在都看都是都是靠藥物沒有啦靠什麼藥物在撐沒有啦都靠聖上獻宿啦來我要跟你感謝這個是東港"},{"start":8679.059,"end":8691.267,"text":"還有我們南部海邊我們漁船上的漁工不管是近海的不管是遠洋的那以前那麼漁工到岸上來整理一些漁獲就被抓"},{"start":8692.557,"end":8719.527,"text":"那後來在我還有勞動部還有漁業署的努力那終於各位看到漁船博港的時候協助卸貨整理漁貨整理漁具補給所需的就是可以接受可以做你覺得這件事有多嚴重魚那裡可以岸上本來喔那些漁工站在船上"},{"start":8720.791,"end":8728.829,"text":"在那裡看台灣人,或是老船長、老夫婦在那裡整理魚那些魚公主站在船上看"},{"start":8729.847,"end":8734.831,"text":"站觀塑,看那些小台,這樣啦,看那些做事,他們站在那裡看,因為他們上岸,就被抓,說不可以殺魚,不可以殺,我跟部長報告,那些魚都死魚,都凍起來了,那不是殺生,我的答案就是殺生啊,殺魚啊,死了就整理魚貨而已啊,對不對,"},{"start":8754.042,"end":8776.547,"text":"那個所以其實我們很多外籍漁工其實是非常辛苦的啦那當然怎麼樣讓大家的這相關的規定能夠跟現場的狀況然後工作現場的狀況能夠來去做互相的協調所以每個船長都被划到都快要受不了啦好在有反應然後一直積極的勞動部這邊後來也跟那個約署"},{"start":8781.548,"end":8808.633,"text":"這是順義民情我覺得這個是非常非常棒的所以要跟你們加油謝謝蘇貞好那再來講講比較這個巴士量表我們通過了兩三個月那你現在你到底是要再怎麼做你上次有跟我解釋嘛你再解釋一下讓我們大家了解好跟蘇貞還有其實很多關心的朋友說明"},{"start":8810.413,"end":8835.444,"text":"因為這個是立法院三讀通過的法律修正案當然我們就會來執行那現在勞動部現在在做的事情是必須全力的來規劃配套那這個配套裡面最重要的事情是怎麼樣保障重症家庭的權利因為其實現在我們已經在很多地方聽聞到有些重症家庭他們的這個聘僱的看護移工其實已經有一點想要這個"},{"start":8836.684,"end":8859.94,"text":"之前所謂說棄重則輕的狀況其實已經陸陸續續會出現所以我們要怎麼保護中正家庭權益所以我們目前其實會設計一個雙軌的程序這個雙軌的程序讓中正家庭可以在這裡面得到比較多的協助跟比較多的方便那因為這個程序的重新設計所以它會深設到其實會需要蠻多增加的人力"},{"start":8860.74,"end":8887.651,"text":"那這個人力從經費的尋找到招募甚至人力還需要訓練這都需要一些時間需要幾個月的時間那也包括我們其實也要到這個移工的來人母國來跟他們討論能不能夠增加引進的數量那這個數量的增加那才比較能夠去因應現在可能市場大幅會這個很快速會增加的這樣的需求避免更大程度的"},{"start":8889.371,"end":8917.173,"text":"市場供需的失衡所以這整體來說我們都在很審慎而且很積極的作業之中而且跟衛福部也持續的開會討論共同研商那我們評估下這些工作算起來可能真的還是要個半年六個月那這真的不是我們刻意去做什麼行政怠惰行政杯葛都不是我們是要付某個部分我們是要負起降低衝擊的責任不然如果貿然的沒有把配套做好狀況開放會"},{"start":8918.234,"end":8935.968,"text":"真的會對重症家庭產生很多的衝擊好 這個部長說的就是我們兩個重點第一個重點就是外籍看好自白他有長時間以後他就可以申請他要轉僱主了嘛所以他會對這個當政的重症的他不喜歡招呼他去他要轉換僱主"},{"start":8937.029,"end":8961.441,"text":"這是第一個考量第二個考量就是真的外籍看護看護工如果素質比較好一點的韓國日本搶著用我們能不能搶得到我們的薪資比他們低老實講還是比較偏低所以這兩個考量那你要做好的配套這個我可以接受那再來你跟我說兩分鐘"},{"start":8964.794,"end":8979.545,"text":"這個是外籍遺失聯的剛剛盧縣一委員在講的事情我要跟他follow一下因為外籍的移工勞工第一次要去接到我們的原住民的工作機會"},{"start":8980.836,"end":9005.815,"text":"那我講一個事實給你看因為原住民這邊我常常在跑屏東那邊就非常熟跟那邊也很綿密每天早上五點多就會看到派湖啦 春日啦 萊義啦就一個班長然後開一步想要吃 店館在才會有六個七個 八個就下去到北地 還是去到高雄市去做工地 做鐵工"},{"start":9008.997,"end":9031.148,"text":"那我這邊要我很感謝常說一萬多個人的工作機會會被外國勞工搶走我倒是建議勞動部這邊要加強要去執訓的最當然你要把那個我們原住民的朋友因為都很強體壯的你要讓他的技術水平往上拉你也讓他去騎車你要教他拔車你要讓他騎摩邦你要叫他點摩邦"},{"start":9036.707,"end":9049.963,"text":"你騎車一天的薪水差不多一千六千八如果電磨棒的都兩千五啊兩千六、兩千八馬上可以增加而且讓它技術水平往上拉你給它砌磚你給它做頭緒一天三千幾塊你給它調整啊沒意思嘛那個是"},{"start":9058.77,"end":9082.908,"text":"外籍的勞工進來我在台數六、七還看到外籍的移工在焊接他們也接受好的訓練之後焊接他們的管線,不銹鋼的管線那一工三千多塊耶所以你要把原住民這裡如果有人說話,就要先保溫後面保溫,你一定要自己提升"},{"start":9084.133,"end":9111.647,"text":"這第二組啦跟委員說明確實現在我們看到在整體的產業討論缺工的狀況裡面最缺的就是這些技術工沒錯那這些技術工所以不管是對我想也不只對原住民但對原住民朋友我們其實可以特別怎麼樣子來協助大家做這些職業訓練讓大家在這個技術工的缺乏的狀況之下有機會可以有更好的工作的機會包括更多的收入我想這當然都是我想勞工部很樂意"},{"start":9113.689,"end":9132.709,"text":"這個要加強一定要more attention在這一塊因為我們原住民很多朋友都當軍警我在大五雲區看到跳傘的大五雲區整個裡面的幹部不管是軍官士官士兵原住民的朋友佔了56%"},{"start":9135.911,"end":9152.655,"text":"所以我覺得我們骨幹都在這裡所以再來就是他們勞力這一塊階級的你一定要把他訓練讓他們拉高他的資助水平增加他的收入 這個很重要時間到了喔好 謝謝謝謝蘇昭偉 謝謝部長好 現在休息十分鐘"},{"start":9168.96,"end":9169,"text":"好啦"},{"start":9946.368,"end":9957.578,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接下來請黃熊委員來做懸答謝謝主席 我們請部長來 有請部長嘿"},{"start":9966.772,"end":9988.978,"text":"部長好部長我最近看到我們勞動部也揭露國際工時的比較從這個比較當中我們也看到台灣的2023年的人均工時達到2020個小時在全球主要國家當中是排第五"},{"start":9989.518,"end":10014.848,"text":"第五高那亞洲的話是第二高那我不知道說部長你看到這個調查之後你的感想是怎樣你有看到這個我當然認為就台灣的工時的問題的話我們當然有可以改善的空間是有改善的空間嗎我們當然覺得是部長我想請教因為之前"},{"start":10016.168,"end":10041.508,"text":"最近我想之前也有討論就是還勞供七天假這個議題那最近大家也在討論說是不是這個假期能夠統一那我也想請教就是說如果我們在這個整個制度上面譬如說我們這個工時是不是有可能再做一個調整或者是我們目前的這個特休"},{"start":10042.905,"end":10064.259,"text":"特休是不是也有可能再做一個調整那如果說未來可能我們國民黨的委員可能會針對勞工七天假的這個議題可能會再修法那如果說是我們的話有沒有可能如果說不去修法的話那有沒有可能在我們這個特休這方面去做一個調整"},{"start":10066.621,"end":10083.473,"text":"跟黃委員說明其實因為今天也很多委員在討論國定假日是否有調整我說從勞動部的角度來說我們還是要表達這個法規的主管機關是在內政部那我們很願意參與這個部分的討論"},{"start":10084.614,"end":10102.735,"text":"那當然從勞動部的角度來說我們認為國定假日的調整那我們很願意正向的來做相關的討論但是剛剛黃委員講到一個就是說關於要不要修法的問題這個要不要到立法院裡面用修法的形式或立法的形式"},{"start":10104.096,"end":10118.845,"text":"在國會裡面立法行事的部分的話因為勞動部是整個大的也是我們是大整個大的執政團隊的議員但就這個法規要用什麼形式來處理要不要進到立法院修法這部分當然我們會尊重內政部"},{"start":10119.505,"end":10146.762,"text":"我們會尊重內政部但國定假日需不需要調整或者是說要不要調整我們覺得是有討論的空間那這是不一樣的層次一個是要不要立法一個是一個要不要調整這是不太一樣的事情但要不要立法的部分這部分當然我們會尊重內政部因為內政部是法規的主管機關那部長我剛剛也有提到一個問題就是說那我們這個特休的部分有沒有可能也去做一個調整"},{"start":10147.462,"end":10175.892,"text":"我認為因為確實最近大家針對特休有一些討論但因為特休如果要調整的話也是要涉及到修法所以要涉及到修法都會需要這個需要社會上面有更多的共識或者是更多的討論是部分要涉及修法但我們願意來聽社會各界的想法因為我們也看到就是說可能我們整個工時可能跟其他國家比起來可能"},{"start":10176.232,"end":10191.817,"text":"也許是比較高一點那再來就是說我們台灣是以中小企業為多數很多如果說你要修到特休要修到這個15年可能15年以上可能就有這個15天5年"},{"start":10192.737,"end":10211.268,"text":"就是5到9年差不多15天嘛那10年後是每一年再加一天最高到30天嘛那我們知道就是說台灣的這個中小企業平均平均的這個就是一間中小企業的公司的平均收益差不多是13年"},{"start":10212.668,"end":10240.119,"text":"所以他如果說要到這個特休如果要到那個30天的話其實還是有他的困難所以我們是不是有可能就是說在這個特休方面可能也許可以再去做一個調整我記得在2016年那時候有去做一個調整那是不是可以再做一個也許在這方面是不是可以再做一些調整或是可以再做一些討論"},{"start":10241.882,"end":10250.932,"text":"我覺得這些相關的制度因為我剛才說確實工時的台灣工時的狀況是有改善所以我覺得我想我們都會聆聽各界的意見"},{"start":10252.366,"end":10281.234,"text":"好 那就是還需要就是大家討論然後聽各界的聲音那我剛剛有特別提到就是說這個特休的部分那當然就是也是需要聽各界的這個聲音那我另外一個就是說我想請教就是說我們以前如果我們在那個人力銀行上面可能就是說這個求財那也許薪資方面可能就會寫免疫"},{"start":10282.254,"end":10309.567,"text":"可能就是薪資他沒有特定這樣去寫那後來有去做一個就做一個這個修正就是說如果是這個最低薪資或是三萬多的話也許你就是要去這個寫名薪資多少那也許是四萬以上就可以就是用免疫嘛那我覺得說這個部分我覺得應該揭露的話可能也許對勞工來講會是比較好的"},{"start":10313.724,"end":10335.612,"text":"確實就像剛剛黃媛說其實工時長也有一個原因是因為其實如果對很多比較低薪的勞工的話他就有部分低薪勞工他就覺得他可能會需要透過加班來提高收入那這當然是我們我們不會鼓勵不樂見看到這個狀況所以我們覺得其實有時候拉高薪資也會是一個降低工時的一個做法"},{"start":10336.132,"end":10362.638,"text":"那拉高薪資的做法第一個我們現在是透過最低工資的持續的提升這是一個第二個就是關於薪資透明化所以接下來關於薪資透明化我們也希望能夠把這個從4萬以下要揭露變成是拉高是5萬以下就要揭露那這個會來修訂就會服務法那目前這也是在行政院的經濟發展委員會裡面其實有確認那我們現在也在準備這個法規修訂相關的準備"},{"start":10363.598,"end":10390.49,"text":"所以目前也是在行政院這邊我們現在正在法官修訂的準備就是希望把4萬要揭露提高到5萬要揭露我想請教就是說其實我們以前中央政府部門如果是約聘僱或者是約聘約用人員可能勞務承攬的有的都是用最低薪資"},{"start":10391.61,"end":10408.798,"text":"那現在就是說對於我們公務單位的這個月聘僱承攬承攬人員他的薪資現在已經這個月薪最低薪資就是月薪的用最低薪資的1.1倍那大約是三萬三萬一千"},{"start":10410.459,"end":10426.268,"text":"449元那這個是用公務單位這邊來算就是說不是用最低薪資是用最低薪資的1.1倍那就差不多3萬1千多那我想請教就是說這個有沒有可能就是勞動部去對於一些企業"},{"start":10427.449,"end":10440.799,"text":"是不是你們也可以去鼓勵或者是擴及到全國的企業就是說用最低薪資來聘用是不是我覺得說這方面應該勞動部也可以去鼓勵"},{"start":10443.342,"end":10468.274,"text":"陳蘭只要是你適用勞舉法的勞工的話一定都是要用最低薪資以上的那我們現在當然我們很希望去鼓勵企業不只是給最低薪資甚至該給更高所以可能比方說我們最近其實也會有一些工會他用團體協約的方式或者是我們也在想用其他的方式來協助或刺激企業其實可以更大的加薪"},{"start":10469.435,"end":10491.354,"text":"我覺得部長你應該從現在已經從我們自己的這個公部門開始那我覺得國營事業我覺得應該也可以去要求或者是鼓勵他們希望能夠用最低薪資的這樣的1.1倍來聘用我覺得這個也是一方面就是從政府做起啦是 當然我們來跟相關的事業單位來討論一下這個事情"},{"start":10494.276,"end":10511.012,"text":"我們希望是這樣子來做那這個最後一個就是說最近大家就是希望就是說我剛剛講的這個國定假日也好那或者是那個國定假日能夠一致啦那其實我有一個"},{"start":10511.913,"end":10530.688,"text":"有一個想法就是說如果未來我們如果不透過這個修法的話那又可以讓所有勞工或者是公務人員大家休假又比較一致的話我覺得在春節方面的這個休假會不會是一致會更好因為我們如果以今年的這個春節來講的話"},{"start":10532.729,"end":10561.011,"text":"其實我們今年的春節有九天嘛那到明年2026年的這個春節也許只剩下六天如果沒有彈性放假的話可能就剩下六天那如果說要讓我們所有的國人放假是一致的我覺得可以朝著這個春節然後又讓勞工勞工的這個工時又不會那麼長然後大家春節全國一致放假而且"},{"start":10562.012,"end":10574.909,"text":"未來就是如果是一致放假的話就是都有九天我覺得這個也是皆大歡喜我相信請部長如果說跟行政單位大家在討論的話我覺得可以朝著這個方向去思考我還是要說因為這個國家的"},{"start":10577.873,"end":10603.135,"text":"主管單位在法規主管單位內政部但是就像這些相關的提案相關的想法的討論其實我們都是正面看待然後我們也願意一起參與這些討論我們正面看待也願意參與討論但是確實就是針對最後法規要用什麼形式要不要進到立法院立法這部分我們當然還是尊重內政部是 好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請林署委員來做選答"},{"start":10612.049,"end":10617.516,"text":"主席 各位大家午安 是不是就交予我們這個洪部長來 請部長 謝謝評委員好"},{"start":10624.091,"end":10648.052,"text":"部長好我想今天大家就教很多但我想談一點不一樣的這一點就是說因為我們看到這個民陽大火發生了10個人死亡100多人輕重傷的這個事故還有這個新埔的這個遠東化遷爆炸死亡造成爆炸造成這個多人死亡和受傷的這個狀況"},{"start":10649.893,"end":10662.649,"text":"那因為新聞被蓋掉了所以當然我特別想要談這個是因為我們發現制度面恐怕還是有一些問題那職安法最大的修正是本人在大概2013年"},{"start":10665.243,"end":10679.851,"text":"13年修正的嘛那執安法裡面有很多的這個授權的執法交給你們去制定其中有一個叫做製程安全評估定期這個實施辦法那依據執安法的第15條第三項你們去訂了這個執法"},{"start":10682.512,"end":10686.874,"text":"那規範事業單位大概每5年需要重新驗證製程安全評估報告來確保製程危害能反映操作現況而且這種狀況裡面這個製程安全如果一直產生危害那不管是民養的或者是原動化遷的傷亡都特別的嚴重而且還都是很大的跟公安有很大的連結"},{"start":10708.706,"end":10726.851,"text":"其實對社區來講它也是一個不定時的炸彈那我要談這個制度面是因為因為這個辦法裡面直接講說適用這個辦法你們強制規定了大概就是你們所謂的假類的工作場所但是呢"},{"start":10729.473,"end":10744.344,"text":"甲類裡面大概有兩大範疇第一個就是石化業第二個就是製造、處置或使用危險物及有害物達勞動檢查法施行細則附表一、附表二規定數量的工作場所"},{"start":10745.677,"end":10757.442,"text":"你是限縮在這兩項假類這兩項但是我們現在要討論就是說那我簡單先問你遠東新的化纖廠它是屬於辦法中的規範事業單位嗎現在應該看起來不是不是不是它不是就從這個目前的規範裡面不是對啦那民養是嗎"},{"start":10778.239,"end":10797.96,"text":"那你們覺得這一個要求製程安全要有個評估計劃五年都要做一次然後自行自律然後自行汰換設備自行做安全檢查那你覺得這個遠東新他們這一類的需不需要"},{"start":10799.815,"end":10812.574,"text":"跟文說明我其實自己我們自己有去到因為在遠東新的事件爆發之後我自己也去看相關傷者跟我們其實有去探望確實遠東新的案例他過去其實他是不用申報的對那"},{"start":10814.554,"end":10817.057,"text":"那你覺得需不需要納管我認為需要好那為什麼要講這個是因為我們在今年二月原東興爆炸以後呢你們訂了一個高風險工廠的火災爆炸危害預防指引那你們的適用範圍第一個高風險設備第二個高風險作業"},{"start":10836.178,"end":10861.427,"text":"那顯然看起來這高風險設備所指涉的範圍你們包括火爐、煙囪、加熱裝置及其他亦引起火災的高熱設備化學設備、高壓氣體設備、危險製造處置及使用的設備等等等等然後高風險作業、容階容斷的作業作業從所亦有亦然亦體的蒸汽、可燃性蒸汽或爆炸性粉塵等等等等"},{"start":10862.987,"end":10874.714,"text":"你們這一個高風險工廠火災爆炸的危害預防指引的適用範圍顯然遠遠的大於你們製程安全評估定期實施辦法"},{"start":10876.345,"end":10893.399,"text":"那這個辦法跟這一個作業指引你覺得適用範圍有沒有必要要統整而且要將你們現行的預防指引的適用範圍全部劃入你安全評估必備的必做的這個範圍裡面署長要講謝謝委員其實委員這邊非常專業那我們15條確實是"},{"start":10901.503,"end":10917.57,"text":"當初定義的邏輯就是讓最高風險的部分要做製程安全評估五年評估一次因為他如果環境改變對啦你們就是鎖定最高風險的那我這次指引就是其實依照我們第五條本來雇主對他的製程安全就會做一些"},{"start":10918.05,"end":10940.764,"text":"比較細部的評估展開跟預防不過現在委員提起是我們內部要討論第一個假類部分就是第15條要不要做一些再把它做比較嚴格把一些再風險再拉進來這是第一個層次第二層次其他還沒拉進來的部分本來就是雇主依照我們指引要做它的預防的一些展開那展開之後我們講的就在後面後段的查核我想"},{"start":10941.144,"end":10950.471,"text":"是不同城市我們不同風險管理不要講這麼多 第一個你就回答我是不是要再擴大納管我們在延續擴大納管以後其實擴大納管也不是要讓它涵蓋面更更廣一點然後再來 但問題是這樣子它做了計畫它必須強迫五年就要做一次的這個製程安全的評估計畫可是這個計畫等於改善嗎等於改善嗎"},{"start":10970.54,"end":10997.356,"text":"做計畫 作文比賽 請專家學者花一筆錢告訴你們 然後這個計畫要向你們申報還要報備吧 備案跟委員報告 制裁安全評估所有國家的機制是一致的公司依照管理系統做制裁安全評估評估之後要做後面的PTCA的檢測那我們當然政府機關是看他的過程中得不得當所以這一次我們會發這個指引 那我問你一個問題"},{"start":10999.022,"end":11009.17,"text":"民洋大火是不是需要做他儲存很多化學品是高風險的所以顯然看起來製程安全他是那管的"},{"start":11009.946,"end":11029.904,"text":"包委其實民間大火在前年發生當然是不管是消防法、共產黨輔導法跟我們治安法院官員發表也都在做檢討那這個部分當初它是低爆、漏爆所以沒有進入我們的後來發現它量多應該是變成我們的我現在沒有辦法聽得懂你到底在講什麼"},{"start":11031.021,"end":11032.682,"text":"因為就現行的納管程度不足的製程安全定期實施辦法看起來民洋都像是甲類裡面它製造 處置或使用危險物達到一定數量的工作場所"},{"start":11047.995,"end":11065.958,"text":"那我問你他有沒有申報製程安全計畫你說 你就直接告訴我有或沒有報告委員 沒有 因為他前面跟消防法跟工廠法都沒有報了所以這都是在兩年前所以啊 我現在問你制度在這裡沒有報會怎麼樣沒有報會怎麼樣應報而未報會怎麼樣你當初有開法嗎2023年到現在有開法了嗎"},{"start":11075.987,"end":11086.097,"text":"明天大火我們授權金家區是有開罰的罰多少我們再把這個罰多少救生員的母法執安法第15條第三項違反法律罰多少死了十個人一百多人輕重傷依照執安法應該要申報而未報你們罰多少不會是三萬吧"},{"start":11100.458,"end":11122.665,"text":"有可能是三萬違反第15條第三項從三萬罰到三十萬罰三十萬死了十個人我們都知道職災的最高原則是預防不要發生而我們治安法的最高原則就是希望要做到不發生而當發生的時候如果代價是這麼輕"},{"start":11125.29,"end":11134.056,"text":"什麼人管你遵守法律這法尊的意願太低了吧因為罰則太輕了這題我會回去看看當初那個我們的授權進下去大概有罰多少我後續跟委員報告我現在告訴你喔第一個涵蓋面不夠第二個有處分有罰則但是罰得很輕第三"},{"start":11152.046,"end":11154.007,"text":"我們在講說他必須要五年做一次的報告可是呢 因為民養大火之後有一個環工顧問公司在之後他們去檢視了其他高爾夫球球器製造商請他們進場去看結果該場的作業環境的粉塵和VOC問題遠比民養更嚴重因為民養發生以前他已經去過"},{"start":11173.457,"end":11182.381,"text":"倘若現場有可燃物質引發火災後果不堪設想非要等到工廠出事這是他的意見啦外界才會積極要求檢討改善然而場內作業環境糟糕也會造成員工的職業傷病我們都知道這也是來自職安法所以在這種狀況裡面他們一直在抱怨說其實"},{"start":11198.683,"end":11207.989,"text":"這個計劃 評估計劃做好了 雇主沒有改善的意願 了備一格需與委員 需與委員應付你們勞動部 那怎麼辦"},{"start":11209.4,"end":11221.023,"text":"那個我應該講幾件事情第一個事情是納管的範圍對涵蓋面不夠是不是可以擴大涵蓋面不夠跟高風險工廠火災爆炸危害預防指引應該要重疊起來在這一份指引裡面的納管範圍我們會來請治安署來做檢討關於納管範圍然後罰則不夠第二個是怎麼讓這些廠商尤其是高風險的廠商能夠去落實這一類需要爆的"},{"start":11237.327,"end":11263.909,"text":"都已經是高風險而且目前是最高風險但是最高風險是沒有你看他漏報你們也不知道全台灣還有多少漏報所以法規跟管制的工具怎麼樣來強化目的是要讓這些事情我們想要做的管理跟管制能夠落實這兩點我們會來請資安署來做檢討第三點有做了報告但不等於改善"},{"start":11264.89,"end":11282.055,"text":"這件事情要怎麼解決這是我剛才說的落實啊就是說你有做報告可是你沒有在實際的作為上面去落實那怎麼樣子來要求這些廠商必須要來落實他們去做的相關的報告我覺得這部分我請資安署這邊製作面很大的漏洞啊"},{"start":11282.495,"end":11300.173,"text":"而且到現在漏報沒有申報你們完全沒辦法勾機而且沒有辦法再檢查製程安全他著重的是在講工業製程相關的危害特別是他都是重大的公安危害火災爆炸毒性化學物質的外洩能量釋放的這是這麼重大的危害"},{"start":11300.754,"end":11324.671,"text":"其實這個以製程安全的操作環境為目標保持製程的安全操作狀態才能夠確保這個受僱者他有一個安全還有才能確保這一個工廠的周遭的環境是安全所以製程安全的操作跟工廠設施的設計人員安全的操作和良好的文物有關在這種狀況如果法制面是這樣子這麼簡單就可以逃脫"},{"start":11329.534,"end":11333.698,"text":"我們的法制面原來是這麼簡單可以刪掉刪掉以後沒有任何的處分政府不知道不知道直到爆炸才知道這就是最重大的問題好那我再講第二個問題這是根據勞動及職業安全衛生紀刊研究紀刊113年12月裡面一篇報導他們有發現"},{"start":11352.876,"end":11356.86,"text":"因為大家還有去申報的沒申報的你們都搞不清楚但有去申報的裡面發現製程的整個生命週期中重複實施製程安全評估實務面上發現在經過評估週期後越不容易發現新的中度的風險和較高風險的危害"},{"start":11376.298,"end":11388.787,"text":"那況且今年化學品災難性事故如火災爆炸事故頻傳這種事故的調查發現在製程安全評估時多半沒有分析到潛在危害顯然製程安全評估的有效性已經出現疑慮好 這個意思是什麼就是說 你都不要出事 你如果出事然後他們就要進場去調查"},{"start":11403.836,"end":11430.057,"text":"調查事故的時候發現他們交給你們的上傳給你們的備案交給你們報備的他們的製程安全評估計畫其實都沒有分析到潛在危害親債給你高高的 你的親債備案你如果就沒人在看所以這個製程安全評估的這一個制度在運作上顯然是了備一格的"},{"start":11434.417,"end":11434.903,"text":"这样没办法"},{"start":11437.401,"end":11466.586,"text":"報告委員那個民間的意見我們尊重但是我們做送過來的甲類的工作場所的評估報告書我們也會從評估報告書裡面去看他的他的那個時效性而且我們從這個時效怎麼五年一次要說時效報告委員我們還列入我們專我們列管這些甲類的工作場所也會做如果你有列管他沒有申報你怎麼會不知道有沒有列管的然後沒有申報的你不知道的報告委員現在沒有申報的部分就我們會用到那個我們"},{"start":11467.407,"end":11475.094,"text":"行政院在列一個化學雲的那個平台把工廠輔導法通報的資料你現在在講的好像都沒有問題可是執行面就是給你問起來你會欺負一個老頭我們沒有說沒有問題我們會持續讓這個風險控制到最低當然我們會繼續加油你可以保證未來"},{"start":11486.145,"end":11508.468,"text":"絕對不會有任何一家甲類的或是未來全面性涵蓋性更廣的納管的不會有不申報或是申報不實或是申報內容沒有涵蓋到分析潛在危害或是他申報到有潛在危害但是不等於改善 他願意改善因為法規沒有強制他要求改善 那怎麼辦"},{"start":11511.055,"end":11529.758,"text":"包委員風險評估的精神就是他要持續的不斷改善啊沒有改善啊沒有改善啊內積跟外積要做後續的外積在哪裡外積你們積了多少包委員內積內積哪有內積他內部的積才就請人家來評估評估完了就依舊如故"},{"start":11531.537,"end":11545.029,"text":"報告就歸報告但是所以我們在講說這個顧問公司的人看到的現場就是現在寫了報告了但是廠商不願意改善也沒有動機改善也沒有動力改善因為官方沒人在查沒人要緊啊"},{"start":11550.103,"end":11564.777,"text":"這個就是現在真正的事實報告委員我們其實我們那個甲類工廠所那個報告書我們也做抽案查核所以委員今天跟我們提醒我們要做積極的改善其實如果一上工廠生產最危險的東西風險他創造他自己要做"},{"start":11565.498,"end":11575.689,"text":"有效的改善跟解除那我們假機構跟我們展署是在那個監督要求改善角度其實他們叫做你講的是理想狀態是應該這樣沒有錯但是我們都以為工廠會自律業者會自律因為整個廠燒掉他們不會有好處要付出很大的代價可是真正的事實是大家都有一種姑且的"},{"start":11586.581,"end":11591.565,"text":"不可能這麼衰 不可能會發生的阿拉伯剛剛講民養之後這個顧問公司到其他的高爾夫球劇場去看VOC粉塵比民養更嚴重欸所以你不要以為說廠商理所當然應該要怎麼樣沒有這一回事所以關於這個這件事情是知識體大而且我再講一次這個東西只是規範最高風險的那幾家而已"},{"start":11618.771,"end":11645.585,"text":"這個納管跟蓋面還很低耶可是我要跟你講一個數據你要清楚 部長你要聽一下2016到2023年這7年經統計國內工廠 潮車交通實驗室除倉儲學校及其那場所發生危害性化學物質事故每年都超過400件其中工廠事故251件最多而工廠的事故裡面火災爆炸的件數最多"},{"start":11646.685,"end":11666.641,"text":"上述的上述不是只有工廠啦331件所以在這種狀況裡面這很重大的公安危害我們是看到職安署的職安組組長朱文勇說今年的勞動檢查方針要加強火災爆炸高風險工廠的檢查是不是真的部長"},{"start":11668.743,"end":11676.915,"text":"近期真的發生了很多件包括剛剛講的遠東新世紀都是個案的啦你們有沒有通案要去檢查你們的組長是說預計今年要檢查1000多個場次有嗎"},{"start":11683.988,"end":11713.127,"text":"包委員確實我們看火災爆炸案子今年跟去年有增加趨勢所以我們除了遠東化遷這個案子我們這邊倒升油的專案檢查做展開 出廠 覆廠沒有啦 遠東化遷不需要講了我們知道這是你們經常拿出來當標竿的我們有做火災爆炸特別石化業的專案檢查我們今年會做著重做這樣處理 就不要再講遠東化遷因為遠東化遷實在是很漏氣的因為人家是你們的得獎廠商我看看那個獎是什麼獎"},{"start":11714.589,"end":11716.87,"text":"你們那個獎是什麼獎 他是得到你們什麼獎2023年職安署辦理第一屆健康勞動力永續領航企業選拔健康勞動力獲獎名單遠東新世紀然後呢就馬上發生爆炸造成兩人死亡還有幾人受傷"},{"start":11740.811,"end":11750.099,"text":"然後他是設備老舊然後你們當天我們開了記者會以後你們專屬有承認你們審查健康勞動力領航企業的審查標準是根據企業所提供的白皮書寫的好不好做書面審查這完全是脫離實際狀況所以得獎的廠商馬上就造成重大傷亡"},{"start":11767.595,"end":11777.182,"text":"為人這我沒辦法接受所以接下來我們會要求要把考慮器我們也沒辦法接受公安事故違規紀錄都要納入這個評價的範圍台灣石化產業很多是上市貴公司非常大的經濟規模過去景氣好的時候他們都不願意花錢改善而現在我們知道石化業或者是傳統產業他現在世界的景氣不好或者是國際的競爭力下降了他更不可能花"},{"start":11797.375,"end":11806.459,"text":"白白沒有發生事情的時候去花錢所以我們不是希望你仰賴業者的自律而是希望國家政府要進場進場"},{"start":11811.178,"end":11828.864,"text":"對那個林委員因為已經時間超過了我的質詢只有質詢到一半啦還有另外一個制度面問題下一次再問啦但是就是說可以嗎先跟委員說明我們當然我自己不希望是去只依賴業者的自律第二個剛才委員講到那個獎項的評選的問題"},{"start":11831.768,"end":11845.993,"text":"屬面作業審查居然以一個過去職災紀錄或者是發生公安紀錄這麼多的廠商居然被納選進去2023年的永續臨航獎這個我不能接受所以我們會要求把這些公安紀錄違規紀錄都要納入未來評選的考慮裡面"},{"start":11850.655,"end":11863.547,"text":"每年都燒 每年都燒 還可以得到得獎第一屆治安署的這個獎項沒有辦法接受 你要回去好好檢討好 謝謝林淑芬委員接下來請劉建國委員發言"},{"start":11888.834,"end":11899.137,"text":"好 謝謝主席現在還不到12點 已經在發送便當了"},{"start":11901.258,"end":11910.391,"text":"是不是部長因為從委員當部長瘦了瘦很多然後還是部長要靠藥"},{"start":11911.909,"end":11938.772,"text":"因為剛剛有蘇青委員特別講的因為蘇醫師是蘇青也是醫師嘛所以我是覺得今天部長創造很多的關鍵字延節瘦了 靠藥然後行政院是胖子行政院是胖子所以行政院的預算特別多所以要瘦身把行政院比喻成胖子這有沒有歧視問題"},{"start":11940.267,"end":11968.013,"text":"那胖子就一定不健康嗎瘦身之後就一定會健康嗎我沒有看到部長有積極的回應部長請你上來好不好好來請黃部長你是不是因為瘦了精神狀況有問題但這樣的比喻真的比喻有點奇怪嘛你不覺得嗎今天如果說胖子來隱喻比喻行政院的這個預算的規模然後"},{"start":11969.288,"end":11993.397,"text":"這種邏輯是什麼?我實在不太清楚然後如果行政院預算是比較多然後來孕育胖子那代表是胖子脂肪比較多把行政院預算比喻胖子的脂肪然後瘦身之後會比較健康那站在行政院議員的一個部會首長"},{"start":11995.002,"end":12014.099,"text":"對這事情怎麼沒有做一個積極的回應我覺得這是有問題喔大總統要打造健康台灣我跟各位比喻一下啦健康兩個字這麼簡單嗎健康不需要付出成本嗎"},{"start":12015.373,"end":12028.819,"text":"那事實上,你不要顧賺錢啦,你不要顧上班啦,你身體健康的顧得好啦,都用嘴說的,這樣就健康了嗎?你可不可以跟各位說,叫那些顧健康的人,自己身體顧得好跟你們說?"},{"start":12031.129,"end":12059.551,"text":"所以健康是要付出成本的嘛對不對是當你勞動部增加預算的時候比往前年度增加預算的時候我有沒有聽到你們講出為什麼你比往前年度增加這些預算那你增加這些預算是要做什麼現在部長到任如果相關預算的增加有相關的正式對勞工有利對勞工是正面的我們被刪了我們被動了我們就應該去捍衛我們就該講得清清楚楚啊"},{"start":12060.731,"end":12085.211,"text":"怎麼人家以綠行政的預算增加了變胖了他就必須要該瘦身這樣會比較健康怎麼沒有聽到你們去做相關的應該去捍衛去表達你們要執行的這個預算的正當性而且不應該被草率的被刪被凍啊況且說被凍一定可以解凍誰說的算"},{"start":12087.242,"end":12094.117,"text":"誰說的算然後要你們提出相關的追加減你們不提出那你們的回應是什麼"},{"start":12095.663,"end":12121.551,"text":"當然透過互議是一個行政的各部會大家一起來不需要分辨別的在各個委員會來做這樣的事情處理但是另外一個反之當你真的有相關的政事你必須要去推動的時候你當然在委員會委員會是委員會主義啊你要去捍衛啊你要講啊你如果國民黨召委願意讓我們快速的排進我當然我這個部會我先來發動啊"},{"start":12122.95,"end":12133.196,"text":"那蔣的委員你要不要負責?你要不要協助?你要不要處理?你要不要回到你們黨團?確定之後你才在這個委員會講說你們為什麼不送來?但我沒聽到你們肯定回應這個事情啊我沒聽到你們講這個慷慨啊我會覺得我們在地方聽到很多人民百姓看到預算被刪的如此的離譜"},{"start":12151.957,"end":12167.766,"text":"看到昨天監察院的副院長以前親民黨重要的分子李鴻鈞副座都已經出來講了連監察院都已經動彈不得了甚至很多監察人員都必須從口袋掏錢出來才有辦法應付一般的相關事務啊都要出來講話啊都要遇到啊立法院是一個定制度的地方啊"},{"start":12178.769,"end":12185.131,"text":"但是一直在破壞制度這國家怎麼會正常立法院不正常 台灣怎麼會正常那我希望官員要正常一點吧官員要如何正常新北市在勞動部勞發署發生了霸凌的時候新北市的勞動局跑來勞發署要勞檢可以嗎可以嗎"},{"start":12205.563,"end":12217.91,"text":"老花鼠怎麼回應老花鼠怎麼處理昨天台北市的勞動局跑來立法院勞檢某個委員的辦公室可以嗎當然有霸凌的事件當然有什麼樣奇怪的事件我覺得我樂觀其成但是勞檢完之後"},{"start":12229.451,"end":12244.095,"text":"他到底要對誰做出相關的這些處分是針對立法院還是針對那個委員因為立法院的錢這個助理的薪資是從立法院撥下去的不然這兩件事情你簡單對我做一個回應好不好好 第一個事情是"},{"start":12255.237,"end":12269.705,"text":"我們沒有辦法接受把行政院預算的增加形容成胖子行政院為什麼他的預算的增加是因為這幾年我們的經濟成長包括稅收的增加也包括我們想要做的事情增加"},{"start":12270.405,"end":12290.298,"text":"包括剛剛在講到的健康台灣或者是想要照顧的人民相關的權益增加我們也覺得現在是有財政餘力來做這件事情才增加並不是只要增加就會形容成胖子就該瘦身沒有這件事情因為現在很多地方政府其實他們的預算也是增加的但並不會因為說你只要預算增加就一定必須被砍這個在剛剛的時候其實我有說"},{"start":12294.229,"end":12308.058,"text":"這個預算的審查最重要的事情其實是要看科目你的三檢跟監督到底有沒有道理不是只要這個預算增加就必須要看我想這部分沒有辦法接受這是第一點第二點是關於剛剛委員說剛剛委員提到說這個相關的勞檢單位我們剛剛其實有說明"},{"start":12315.882,"end":12330.151,"text":"我認為其實應該要在兼顧這個我們勞檢要執行的精神跟尊重立法院的這兩個目的之下我們願意來跟立法院討論這些相關的機制包括假設如果要做檢查的機制的話該怎麼進行"},{"start":12332.148,"end":12358.116,"text":"前面那段剛剛部長也有答覆我也有在主持我有聽到但是我還是覺得力道跟強度部長應該可以再加強這第一點那第二點我特別剛剛為引譽當時的新北市勞動局對勞發署發動這個勞檢然後昨天又有這個台北市的勞工局來對立院的這個國會辦公室來做勞檢基本上我們也在反對但是權責勒權責勒"},{"start":12362.152,"end":12384.654,"text":"我要強調的是全職就像2016年2016年在立法院就發生讓議事人員不斷電的情況之下有過勞送醫的案例北市勞動局當時就到我們立法院來要做勞檢啊但是立法院議事人員說不適合啊不是用勞計劃嘛對不對好今天才七天假啦我也有聽到部長的講的一段話"},{"start":12385.474,"end":12411.479,"text":"畢竟你是行政院的議員所以當然主管機關是在內正部那你朝向可以正向的來做討論嘛這很好我們勞工有職安法那公務人員有什麼法2012年發生了一次我們在今年1月21號又發生了一次從凌晨5點24分的畫面各位可以看一下1月20號開會這全部都是公務人員我們未還我們未還這一組又是最後的"},{"start":12412.386,"end":12438.067,"text":"一定要等到那個五點應該是可能十二點就要stand by可能進早然後等到五點二十四分他們才可以等個議會時間ending完之後他們才可以離開然後離開完之後這已經組組幾個小時你可以看組組從一月二十二的十點開會到一月五點四十分休息然後一月二十一號的一點又馬上開會"},{"start":12439.515,"end":12464.411,"text":"這個中間沒有包含打卡沒有包含休息沒有包含事後的相關資料的準備事前的資料準備然後又馬上接續開會我覺得我覺得我要請部長啦齁因為因為我們我們整個算是完善但是公務人員他可能是他可能是什麼法律來來來做規範就是就是這一個呃公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法"},{"start":12466.48,"end":12475.614,"text":"簡稱安慰法我們簡稱職安法安慰辦法對 但我們是法律嘛對 我們是職安法他們是辦法奇怪了 對公務員員怎麼是用這樣在處理部長你有什麼看法"},{"start":12477.577,"end":12500.348,"text":"現在確實是大家會有一些討論說公務員要不要適用治安法的問題在這個議題上面我們幾次的也跟考試院這邊去做確認確實現在考試院還是希望是來修訂他們的公務員保障法還有安慰辦法來去做公務員相關權益的保障"},{"start":12500.728,"end":12525.79,"text":"目前他們還是是希望用他們的這些法治的體系來去保障那就勞動部的角度來說所以也是在這狀況之下但我們現在主要責任法的修訂包括職場霸凌的專章還是針對一般職場的勞工但是這段這幾個月的時間我們也持續的跟考試院這邊在做意見的交換尤其是一些針對包括霸凌"},{"start":12526.812,"end":12538.492,"text":"認定啊包括霸凌相關機制處理我們也跟他們持續在討論之中可是目前他們確實還是認為公務員有一套公務員自己的法規的體系所以他們還是修保障法跟安慰辦法"},{"start":12539.605,"end":12564.781,"text":"我這邊有一個資料給部長做參考我是期待說就部長以處理七天假的角度看怎麼來協助這個事情保訓院現在在研裏要將安慰法提升為法的位階做得到做不到還是一件事情但是他們目前研裏的方向是未來的上級單位每年至少一次對下級進行職業安全衛生檢查我想站在你們的專業你覺得這樣有嚇阻作用嗎要對立法院"},{"start":12567.739,"end":12595.471,"text":"然後找哪個上級來對這個立法院來做檢查他們可能指的比較不是立法院他們指的應該是政府各個機關或機構啦尤其是有上級機關的機關或機構我現在就比喻立法院開會這種情況在這種樣態的情況之下要怎麼處理說實話這部分當然我們還是要去跟考試院來做來做這部分要跟考試院做討論啦但是確實在立法院裡面其實並不是都是公務員"},{"start":12597.079,"end":12620.99,"text":"就是立法院裡面其實也有是有些是一般的勞工是沒有錯沒有錯但是多數是公務員是對不對對按比例來講嘛對啊那我說因為現在考試院在修訂公園保障法跟安慰辦法過程其實他們有找我們跟他們持續的討論因為在職安衛的專業上面確實是在我們職安署這邊是有過去比較多這樣子的專業所以我們提供這樣的專業給他們去做參考"},{"start":12623.768,"end":12638.679,"text":"這個是請部長來協助另外可能要請部長趕快來做相關的因應我們自己的這個勞檢員有1033位的編制對不對但到目前為止好像一直空缺100多位就是一至兩成都沒辦法補足"},{"start":12640.599,"end":12660.752,"text":"這是主要什麼原因?就是我們現在安全衛生背景理工的同仁比較容易離職那在離職部分當然產業科技的發展確實需要比較高科技的人或是有專業的人所以我們一直希望說能夠讓檢查員能夠支持久任留用所以我們部長也特別支持我們目前希望從"},{"start":12662.273,"end":12680.88,"text":"改善我們的檢查方式用科技的方式來做監督檢查跟我們的同仁久任的部分可以鼓勵從不同面向來做展開啦是跟他們身先職執及那個職來的發展受限有沒有關係跟委員報告確實我們這一群大概一千多人所以就是從地方檢察機構檢察員科長到"},{"start":12683.202,"end":12708.197,"text":"檢察機構的處長到治安署可能組長、副署長到組長我們在這個圈子裡面就是這樣子所以民間的科技廠挖我們去當安全管理師、管理員機會就非常大但是我還認為說我們這是對企業有幫助、對事業有幫助的一個工作我們是期待說不管是成就上或者說是生意上我們再做更多的所以有沒有很大的改善空間嘛好比說爭取為正式的人員編制"},{"start":12709.538,"end":12723.494,"text":"還是怎樣去改善這樣的一個環境跟劉仁說我們其實也有希望盡量來跟人種來爭取括號人員的編制但是現在在我上任之後其實我們也提出一個勞檢人專業能力以及工作支持的提升方案"},{"start":12724.235,"end":12740.375,"text":"那希望透過更多的智慧化或者是增加大家專業化的方式來支撐勞員勞檢讓勞檢人就以他的這個工作為榮那之前其實我們也爭取到其實每個月有5000塊或3000塊的這個風險的加急工作的加急那"},{"start":12741.316,"end":12765.633,"text":"沒有錯 現在勞警員的留任或我們只要想辦法留住他們的專業這部分還是有待改善的空間這也是為什麼我們要提出這些勞警員的支持方案因為我到部裡面發現其實勞警員其實要面對很多事業單位的壓力其實這也是他們為什麼其實常常容易想要離職或者想要轉職一個很重要的原因所以我們怎麼樣給他們尊嚴跟包括在專業上面去全力的支持他們這是我們非常重視的事情"},{"start":12766.058,"end":12780.836,"text":"我要特別提到這個勞檢人員並非是正式的公務人員他在勞檢的場域過程裡面在執行相關的業務有視瓦性的問題"},{"start":12783.154,"end":12795.139,"text":"好來請署長報告其實我們有大部分的檢討員是高考特考分發那你講的聘用的部分大概是我們勞動條件檢查人大概有325個所以我們聘用條例聘用了但聘用的部分也是經過我們"},{"start":12797.201,"end":12816.39,"text":"訓練考核跟年度的考機的審核所以他們工作表現我們做比較上位一些瞭解所以我們當然希望這批的聘用檢查員他有聘用檢查員升到聘用視察的聘用專員的聘用視察我們連那個他升升現在這系列我們考慮到了所以我們現在反而是聘用檢查員的流動率沒有相對的"},{"start":12817.31,"end":12831.741,"text":"高太多但是專業的部分有能力的人一定會挖走這個其實是我們公務機關不是只有這個亞南園的這個會有這樣的情況其實很多公務機關專業人士很容易被民間挖走這是看起來是這整體面向的問題啦所以"},{"start":12833.935,"end":12855.465,"text":"但是我要跟委員說當然民間或者是產業都會有這樣人力的需求但我們部裡面還是會全力做的是把勞檢員的待遇包括專業跟支持提升我覺得這還是不管外界的犀利有多大但這部分我們還是會全力來做所以像人種繼續爭取嘛然後它的升遷然後它的發展"},{"start":12855.985,"end":12877.126,"text":"我想這個應該還是要請部長跟署長多費一點心思來看怎麼處理好不好是不是可以一個月內給我們一個你們要整體的這樣的改善提升的計畫把這些人可以好好的留住包圍起作用的計畫給我們做參考好謝謝主席好謝謝下一位我們請陳培宇委員來"},{"start":12893.112,"end":12895.957,"text":"謝謝主席有請部長"},{"start":12903.167,"end":12931.28,"text":"好 部長文安辛苦了我快速跟部長討論一下在勞動部裡面跟兒少有關的相關權益那之前的麥當勞案我想我就不再贅述不過我們現在目前在現場看到的狀況是15歲到19歲的就業人口逼近10萬人我相信這個狀況應該會越來越多有許多的孩子之所以需要這麼早去打工很多時候都是因為他原生家庭的弱勢但是這個弱勢也好或者是因為他很年輕"},{"start":12932.04,"end":12959.337,"text":"或者是他不夠有的社會經驗導致於他們在現場工作的時候因為不熟悉相關的法規還有申訴的管道所以很多孩子們在現場受到的性騷性侵還有其他的案件其實都很難以求助而這個狀況其實越來越嚴重我們本來期望下一張我們本來期望在兒少法期將修法的時候我們可以把相關的權益寫得更清楚可是我們遺憾的看到衛福部目前給我們的版本是說"},{"start":12960.177,"end":12963.141,"text":"在兒少法裡面34、35、36跟兒少就業權益有關的他們決定刪除因為他們認為這個在勞動部的就業服務法還有職業訓練法裡面內容都是一致的因為服務的都是15到18歲的特定對象"},{"start":12979.3,"end":12996.252,"text":"認為勞動部已經提供相關服務所以衛福部說兒少法要刪掉可是我看到很多擔心的現象是除了這個我認為衛福部應該要積極找你們討論不知道部長你覺得怎麼樣你怎麼看這個狀態他們現在預告可能會是往這個方向走"},{"start":12998.108,"end":13021.062,"text":"當然 如果衛福部要找我們討論 我們很樂意跟他們討論因為我們其實之前有開過兒少全法的公聽會在公聽會上已經有很多學者專家還有很多機構的老師們說其實孩子們在現場打工所遇到的狀況可能不是只有勞動部可以協助的很多相關的權益其實還是跟衛福部有關所以我們辦公室之後會想要拜託勞動部跟衛福部跟我們一起來討論如果要刪 那勞動部這邊怎麼幫忙或者是不刪 我們怎麼樣加強一起協助兒少 好不好"},{"start":13027.523,"end":13055.203,"text":"我想最終的目的還是希望兒少在打工相關的權益上面能夠得到確保所以但衛福部會怎麼在他們的法案在這他們主管的法案裡面去做修訂這部分那全都是在衛福部可是我們當然很願意跟委員辦公室這邊來去做配合針對達成剛才講那個最終目的的事情那看我們勞發署在相關的這個業務裡面可以來怎麼來協助好"},{"start":13055.823,"end":13064.245,"text":"謝謝部長那我們之後再來召開會議其實我必須要說勞動部現在的對於年輕人的協助其實是有的我們有相關的就業輔導那不過呢這個就業輔導計畫比較是針對就業前的媒合還有技能訓練這當然是非常重要的一環那不過務實的是在進入職場之後就是如同我剛剛說的因為權益受損或者是不知道去哪裡尋求支持還有協助所以呢這個部分我們也要拜託衛福部"},{"start":13083.328,"end":13104.41,"text":"不好意思 勞動部之後如何協助小孩好 我們來看另外一個其實在勞動部的跨部會勞動部跟教育部在衛福部其實從109年就開始成立一個跨部會的兒少職場安全衛生權益小組我們調了相關的會議記錄不過這個會議記錄是公開上網的一般人都查得到"},{"start":13105.812,"end":13132.95,"text":"會議記錄裡面呢從109年開始到目前為止一年只開兩次會而且那個會議記錄寫得越來越簡單因為都只是各個部會跨部會開會的時候把各自已經有做的事情丟出來說我們有做A我們做了B我們做了C各自說完之後就結束了其實比較沒有看到針對相關的個案進行討論或者是對那半年之中可能社會上發生了什麼樣的事情我們進行檢討我們覺得很可惜"},{"start":13135.391,"end":13154.081,"text":"部長你知道這個會議嗎我有聽說過這個會議但是因為我上任後應該還沒有開但我聽說可能是三月底的時候會再開一次對沒錯我們也算了一下時間應該是三月底會開喔所以我才今天特別來想要拜託部長可不可以把我們剛剛說的這些議題帶進去這個跨部會小組裡面討論一個是"},{"start":13158.783,"end":13182.328,"text":"我剛剛說的修法的問題跟衛福部討論關於兒少全法跟勞動部這邊怎麼配合另外就是兒少職場安全衛生權益小組裡面的功能我們認為可以再更加精進包含是不是把特殊的個案可以拿進去討論後續大家如何跨部會合作或者是就算沒有特殊個案但是我們所收集到的很多兒少在現場工作所遇到的困境如何透過輿情的系統回報給各個部會讓部長您帶到這個權益小組裡面去討論"},{"start":13187.049,"end":13200.988,"text":"我們都希望可以看到比較實質的推進跟進度這邊可不可以請部長簡單回應一下跟陳委員說我當然樂見這個在部裡面相關的小組的機制能夠有效所以讓這些相關的會議討論實質的問題"},{"start":13203.371,"end":13225,"text":"然後實質的解決事情那我認為這當然我們是非常樂見其成的所以我會請這個我們的夜館單位來跟委員這邊請提供一些相關重要的議題那如果需要的話放到這個會議上面來做實質的討論或者是一些相關的言商這當然我們是沒有問題"},{"start":13225.7,"end":13244.268,"text":"好 因為我們不會只有追勞動部這邊我們也會同步跟教育部跟衛福部確認如何在這個跨部會的小組裡面把實質的問題進行討論跟檢討好 以上謝謝部長 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長各位官員如果要用餐就請便接下來請楊議員來做詢問"},{"start":13257.596,"end":13261.04,"text":"謝謝主席 主席請一下洪部長來有請部長部長好部長我還是要先就年度預算讓你做個說明也跟"},{"start":13281.263,"end":13306.289,"text":"也跟廣泰的勞工朋友講講看到底這一次立法院的預算會造成勞動部在推動各項勞工政策會有什麼自然難行你們現在估出來的被刪減跟凍結的預算金額大概多少?"},{"start":13307.557,"end":13336.418,"text":"我們大概總共就公務算的部分大概被總共大概被刪減了大概大概八千萬吧八千萬那那對 衛韓通案刪減是八千萬這不含通商的部分就個案就個案刪的部分是大概八千萬對統三是三趴沒有統三是業務費是統三三十趴對統動三十趴吧對"},{"start":13338.482,"end":13346.606,"text":"但是就是不含統棟或統山的部分總共是38000萬38000萬那山的這些預算會導致哪一些跟勞工權益 凍結是18億那可能會影響的勞工相關權益是什麼"},{"start":13365.929,"end":13391.962,"text":"我們現在看到幾個部分第一個部分是其實因為一般行政的費用其實都被做了刪除所以其實整個部內的運作因為一般行政的費用包括刪除包括凍結都有所以如果沒有辦法快速的解凍的話其實已經會影響到部內的整體的行政的運作包括水電等等的都在下半年可能都會受到影響這是第一個第二個其實"},{"start":13393.723,"end":13398.657,"text":"包括我們剛才講到像我們剛才就業平等的這個相關的業務因為被刪了800動了"},{"start":13401.446,"end":13423.837,"text":"將近2000所以剛剛像講到像產檢價賠產檢價的相關的這些補助其實都會受到影響那也包括我們其實對於一些地方政府的就業中心就業服務佔據點其實我們透過業務費的方式做一些會做一些薪資上面的補助那這部分也因為"},{"start":13425.718,"end":13445.212,"text":"業務費被刪跟動所以這些救福人員的薪資的發放也會受到影響那這都影響到一般勞動的權益在地方除了勞動部自己的就業服務站以外你們還有對各縣市政府跟鄉鎮市都有提供補助就業的"},{"start":13446.713,"end":13474.074,"text":"就人員的薪資補助這部分也會被影響我想勞動部這邊也沒有什麼可以因應的唯一的方式就是盡可能的向委員做溝通希望該解凍的可以盡早解凍會不會影響到基金的撥補"},{"start":13475.816,"end":13501.41,"text":"因為我們已經連續好幾年老保基金有做政府有做撥補嗎基金的撥補的部分比較是針對就是說財化法在去年12月通過後如果這個新的財化法要實施的話因為中央會被這個有3700多億那這個經費會移到地方去所以可能會有這些非法訂"},{"start":13502.831,"end":13530.049,"text":"推法定義務的支出在未來的預算編列上面就會受到影響那撥補當然就是其中的可能會受到影響的項目好所以不然我先說我在去年其實我有提過老保條例的修正案我當初是把撥補直接入法"},{"start":13531.991,"end":13555.32,"text":"就是基金的來源政府的撥補算是法定的收入來源可是後來因為行政部門有意見所以這個案我就把它撤掉了我現在重新問一次假如再提版本把政府撥補"},{"start":13557.074,"end":13572.008,"text":"當作當作勞保基金的收入收入的來源入法啦就是把它明定在法律部長是贊成的還是反對的這部分我們尊重委員的提案然後我們願意跟委員來做討論因為我覺得"},{"start":13576.377,"end":13606.017,"text":"老闆每年這樣子在政府透過這麼龐大的金額在撥補都已經搖搖欲墜了假如說在因為財化法的修正會受到撥補金額會受到影響因為他法定支出跟非法定支出還是有差別的當然啦假如說是法定支出也可以"},{"start":13608.21,"end":13627.825,"text":"後來由地方來因為錢到地方了嘛可能中央還是有一些中央原本負責的事項必須要由地方來負責這個才合理啦這個後續應該財劃法假如現在富裕案也已經"},{"start":13630.629,"end":13656.186,"text":"被補絕了後續假如說法律確定了以後錢跟權責總是必須要一致嘛不太可能說把錢給地方然後事情還是由中央來做所以就是說假如再重新提案"},{"start":13658.925,"end":13672.951,"text":"政府撥補當作當作勞保基金的法定收入部長應該是肯定的我們覺得我剛剛說尊重委員提案然後我們願意來跟委員這邊來討論部長我在問就是這個禮拜"},{"start":13682.067,"end":13697.459,"text":"內政委員會也已經在討論國定假日那我覺得這個的起由大概都是因為勞工這七天假引發出來的"},{"start":13699.558,"end":13725.93,"text":"那台灣的工時其實相對於日本韓國大概也都比較高啦時間的關係所以我簡單講就是說假如因為勞基法有規定特休假假如我們是透過提高特休假來增加勞工的"},{"start":13727.915,"end":13743.242,"text":"的休假日而不是全國統一因為特休假有幾個好處就是第一勞工可以提高第一可以降低工時第二勞工可以自己選擇什麼時候要休"},{"start":13746.618,"end":13767.377,"text":"第三因為不是一致性的修所以對企業的運作比較小對於經濟的阻礙也比較小這個部長這麼贊成我們當然贊成我們當然"},{"start":13770.475,"end":13787.089,"text":"不過從勞動部的角度我們當然會在這個降低工時的角度來去思考這種可能的狀況那針對當然特休的特休假的議題是會有一些討論那我們願意來聽大家的聲音我現在就是提但是因為確實特休假要"},{"start":13787.689,"end":13813.765,"text":"要調整的話這涉及到要修法啦那所以這個我的意思就是說就是說假如說現在我們在討論國定假日最主要的起源是來自是來自砍了勞工原本的那這七天假才有那麼多委員提出國定假日的修法版本那是不是是不是從勞基法來修"},{"start":13815.936,"end":13840.482,"text":"提高特休假的天數這個對於整體國家的衝擊比較小這個會是社會討論的我們聽到各方討論的想法之一那我說因為這一波大家在討論國定假日的議題其實從勞動部的角度當然我們也覺得我們願意來正向的來參與這個事情的討論沒有我現在"},{"start":13844.585,"end":13868.658,"text":"不然我這樣子問就是說你覺得直接用國定假日還給勞工這7天假的方式比較好還是我們單純7歐勞基法然後來提高特休假一樣想辦法把這7天補回去"},{"start":13871.526,"end":13876.89,"text":"這兩個途徑部長比較支持哪一個我都不會為難你啦"},{"start":13880.444,"end":13907.972,"text":"我認為這些做法當然大家現在討論我們都來聽大家的聲音好啦那我還是必須要做個結論啦我覺得從特休假來做處理會是對國家社會經濟衝擊最小然後同時又可以讓勞工自己選擇他要的假日然後企業也不會因為放假所以停擺"},{"start":13908.812,"end":13934.647,"text":"所以我覺得我還是主張修勞基法提供給部長當作參考謝謝主席 謝謝部長好 謝謝接下來請高金素美委員來做詢問謝謝主席 有請部長來 有請部長"},{"start":13938.137,"end":13965.91,"text":"部長沒關係你慢慢來喝口水在用您的用餐時間這是您擔任部長以來我們第一次在這邊做質詢那我今天的質詢很快的因為時間不多我要進入我的主題但這個主題不是很大的議題但是呢你一旦解決之後呢就能夠解決我們現在受到困境的勞工的問題好第一個問題我想問的是勞保局的人力不足的問題"},{"start":13966.85,"end":13994.541,"text":"我們辦公室其實接到了非常多不管是原住民也好漢族朋友也好的勞工朋友來投訴他說遇到了職災要打電話給我們的勞保局要確認申請的事宜電話怎麼打都打不進去有些人打了一個禮拜有些人打了大概半個月才接通那這樣的狀況呢我知道我們勞保局同仁也是非常的無奈即使增派了工讀生來增加了協助但是可不可以"},{"start":13995.054,"end":13997.6,"text":"可是還沒有辦法解決問題 請問部長怎麼解決你有掌握現在的現況嗎"},{"start":14001.995,"end":14029.128,"text":"委員好非常謝謝委員關心的確勞保局因為之前我們在給付的案量上大增所以在人力上面已經民眾要詢問的電話量比較多在這一部分的話因為隨著案量慢慢比較趨緩所以最近我們在接通剛才提到的民眾要打電話部分的話已經有做了一些改善那委員提到的我們一定會特別再留意沒有趨緩喔如果有趨緩的話我們辦公室還不會接到這麼多的投訴部長您了解一下好不好"},{"start":14033.609,"end":14054.095,"text":"因為我知道你來自基層這個問題不是很大很小只是接通電話的問題然後因為如果說你沒有接到電話一個禮拜15天其實對最辛苦的勞工因為辛苦的勞工大概家裡面一個人一個人做事可能就要養全家他一旦發生的事情的時候呢後續就很很大的問題好這個問題什麼時候能夠解決"},{"start":14058.174,"end":14087.394,"text":"我們看可不可以兩週討論一下好 兩週討論之下那第二個問題也很快勞保局在處理職災申請的作業程序還有它的期限明顯變得很長我剛剛講過一人職災全家就受災許非常多的勞工背負養家活口的重責大任部長應該比我更清楚他遇到職災的時候他就沒有辦法工作然後家庭就陷入了非常大的困頓然後日後還要碰到什麼治療"},{"start":14088.835,"end":14108.148,"text":"復健費用他不僅僅是這個沒有了工作沒有薪水還有復健還有所謂的治療的工作我知道講到這個部長您可能會告訴我說其實呢我們勞動部有相關的規定是可以保障勞工的權益像是他可以申請職災傷病給付對吧但是部長您知道嗎實務上面從發生職災到勞保局認定職災的相關補償的給付"},{"start":14118.277,"end":14119.444,"text":"這需要花費多久的時間"},{"start":14123.771,"end":14124.772,"text":"有快一點的回答"},{"start":14153.852,"end":14174.946,"text":"據我的了解所以你希望是縮短20天還是多少我們一定會把這個時間能夠盡快讓他能夠好我要在部長您知道他的回答了有幾個問題因為一定是有一個SOP嘛對不對那這個SOP呢當我們勞保局受理勞工的傷病給付申請之後呢醫生會"},{"start":14176.365,"end":14200.877,"text":"病例的審查然後這是因果關係因為我們的勞保局他要認定是不是可以成立所謂的職災的程序這要耗費很長的時間你剛剛聽到了他說前面因為COVID-19可是COVID-19只是一個藉口當然事實上現在要認定這個是非常耗費時間的這也是人力不足"},{"start":14201.377,"end":14219.158,"text":"所以請問一下部長你要怎麼樣來趕快解決這個SOP然後把時間把它縮短跟文說沒有其實對面有兩個層次的問題第一個層次還是當然還是跟人力的資源有關這是一個第二個其實我們近這段時間其實也一直在檢討就是包括假設"},{"start":14220.499,"end":14237.183,"text":"怎麼樣如何更以職災勞工為核心在友善職災勞工的前提之下重新來設計其實我們可以協助職災勞工相關的措施跟流程這事情其實我們也在檢討中那我們最近其實也找了一些專家找了一些學者在討論這件事情請問什麼時候會解決"},{"start":14240.225,"end":14255.593,"text":"可能還需要一點時間因為快速好不好不知道為什麼因為辛苦的勞工不能等當他一旦家裡發生的狀況之後後面還有那麼多的事情要處理那不是雪上加霜了嗎"},{"start":14255.973,"end":14279.015,"text":"是因為我們現在在規劃包括他的通報的流程包括他可能申請給付等等等相關的問題我們希望這個流程你從接電話開始就一直到你的審核認定為自災認定到這個勞工他可以接受到這樣子的一個付款跟資源你大概要花多久的時間我覺得我們來盡量來討論盡量是多少好不好"},{"start":14280.096,"end":14291.087,"text":"我可能現在沒有我可能因為這真的現在還在跟專家學的討論中因為我們其實也最近也辦了相關的工作坊來找專家學者包括第一線的食物工作者來討論這個問題我知道這對您來講時間是需要討論的但是我剛剛一直講到尤其是港口的勞工朋友他不能等所以希望您來自於基層"},{"start":14304.159,"end":14319.573,"text":"希望你來自於經常替勞工界的朋友來爭取他應該要的權益這個如果一旦解決馬上可以解決大概一代半港口郎馬上面臨到的問題我們把時間縮短好不好我給你三個月的時間可不可以三個月應該是可以"},{"start":14319.773,"end":14344.664,"text":"可以吧 好不好好 三個月 最後我要再一次提醒部長不論是我們勞保局的電話讓勞工打不進去還是勞保局在受理各項的申請進度比較慢這兩個核心問題我再提醒你就是因為人力不足我相信捍衛基層權益的部長你一定苦鳴所苦可以知道勞工朋友的辛苦但是呢我希望你能夠跟人種來爭取緣額"},{"start":14347.305,"end":14358.988,"text":"然後才能夠讓我們的人力順利的進行讓我們的基層勞工得到應該要有的權益跟保障好不好三個月我會繼續在這邊追蹤您喔謝謝好謝謝接下來請陳昭芝委員來做選答謝謝主席麻煩部長來有請部長"},{"start":14382.205,"end":14386.027,"text":"不久前是剛過完國際婦女節所以我想跟您討論一下女性勞參率的議題請問部長您看這個圖紅色是我們台灣的縣為什麼我國女性的勞參率在30歲以後會節節下降比起其他國家"},{"start":14404.278,"end":14427.084,"text":"你有沒有一個基本的可能因為生育或者是遇到可能進到要照顧家庭的階段其他的國家就不需要嗎其他國家也有但是我們確實看到其他國家它是呈現一個雙峰的狀況就是說部長你這件事也要放在心上因為其他國家當然台灣也許我們婦女也要鼓勵大家來生育但是現在事實上生育率已經偏低情況下這個狀況還具體存在那您在這個國際婦女節當天你有宣布"},{"start":14433.045,"end":14460.447,"text":"為了落實性別平等共同負擔育兒責任所以你們有考慮要這個就業保險法要考慮修法對不對要延長育嬰留職停薪這個的津貼給付這個政策方向本一定全力支持也謝謝部長但是如果要提高這個女性的勞參率除了在經濟上給予援助之外那是不是也要盡力在消除職場上的這個性別歧視部長你同意嗎當然好"},{"start":14462.288,"end":14477.514,"text":"我們來看看,很遺憾,貴黨的大總召,前天就赤裸裸的示範了在職場上所謂的性別歧視他竟然說人家叫你盧媽媽,那你就該回歸家庭主婦,你認同這句話嗎?"},{"start":14482.593,"end":14498.528,"text":"這個跟文說明我想從當務的工作來說是就是說我們的工作的重點應該是如果對於媽媽我們要怎麼樣支持就算當了媽媽就算當了媽媽還是可以好好的在職場工作你對於這種殺文主義殺豬言論"},{"start":14500.71,"end":14517.76,"text":"變得這麼軟弱這麼溫柔的呼籲你當立委的時候我提醒你一下2023年民眾黨有一位市議員候選人他的造勢活動他邀請專業舞者來造勢應援那這些舞者他身穿的空服員的制服民進黨竟然黨團這個大動作召開記者會來罵人"},{"start":14521.462,"end":14526.444,"text":"當時你還跟著說民眾黨毫無性別意識消費性別科本的印象當時無法想像這個政黨有什麼資格來談性別平等他們心中的女性還有主體性可言嗎部長你當時對這個職場的性別歧視你是非常的憤慨喔那現在你是勞動部長啊怎麼變這麼溫柔講不出話來啊還是碰到你們大總召就這樣所以我剛才跟陳委員說明說從勞動部工作來說我們是要來協助即便"},{"start":14550.015,"end":14559.24,"text":"你當了媽媽怎麼樣能夠兼顧你的職場跟你的家庭的照顧這是勞動部的工作我跟妳講現在每個部會都在說沒宣媒體宣傳費被窮窮說被我們刪光了那我現在給妳一個機會妳來宣揚這個職場性別平等妳來批評我跟妳保證妳批評柯總統的力道越大妳的宣傳效果會越好"},{"start":14574.328,"end":14576.189,"text":"我現在給你一點時間 你只要講幾句話抵了上幾百萬的宣傳費 麻煩你講一下我台詞都替你想好了 你罵民眾的話就是把主持換成柯總章麻煩你講一遍 我直接借給你陳委員 部會的宣傳效果要好不是只是靠罵誰"},{"start":14597.864,"end":14617.749,"text":"這個活生生的例子在立法院出現,你講他幾句有問題嗎?你當時怎麼批評別人?雙標了所以我說,從勞動部的角度,我們的工作是協助當了媽媽以後,我們怎麼樣能夠兼顧在職場上面就有一個權利,這部分是我們的工作好啦好啦,我知道你說不出來啦,雙標啦梅軒不是用來罵人的啦"},{"start":14622.13,"end":14625.873,"text":"這是個事實我沒有叫你講不確實的話這句話就不對啦你要叫人家回家不要上班那天你在上媒體專訪看到你自己一百天的表現你十分給自己七分嘛表示你自己也覺得有進步的空間"},{"start":14638.101,"end":14655.256,"text":"那雖然你是因為802臨危受命但是因為我認為很多勞工對你有很深的期待為什麼因為你自己是社運街頭出身應該是更能體會基層的辛苦那你上任這一百天以來好像已經不是第一次被勞工團體說找不到人去年學位勞團在勞動部的這個地方絕食希望你能夠接見傾聽訴求結果等不到你部長"},{"start":14665.024,"end":14681.667,"text":"最近勞團喊要降低工時,鎮定國定加熱訴求,好像你也是以獨不悔啦!所以不像你做官了,你把以前的戰友一腳踢開,這樣也不對啊!你要面對面溝通啊!跟陳遠說明齁,我們其實在,我們其實前面說過"},{"start":14682.928,"end":14695.918,"text":"關於證明國人家議題我們其實在這段時間裡面我們都持續的跟相關部會包括跟行政院在交換意見在傳達相關勞工的心聲這部分我們都有持續的在做那對於這個議題它的法規主管機關不是我們"},{"start":14703.584,"end":14721.142,"text":"他法會主管機關是在內政部但我們是願意正向的參與這件事情的討論法會法嘛 情理上你要怎麼對待這些基層勞工嘛部長那另外部長你以前待過環團你應該知道每年的世界地球日有一個總統會跟接近環團聽取他們的建言那個叫做環團與總統有約"},{"start":14723.984,"end":14740.792,"text":"這個活動已經持續21年了跨越藍綠執政的時期那團團也覺得很好這是一個很棒的平台能夠跟總統直接面對面來做一些溝通那本席建議既然你是社運團體出身你不妨也跟賴總統建議你建立一個勞團與總統有約"},{"start":14744.933,"end":14749.796,"text":"雖然總統很忙但是每年有一次有個時間讓勞團跟總統見面讓總統有機會接見勞工聽取他們的聲音你覺得這個意見如何 部長"},{"start":14757.501,"end":14786.247,"text":"謝謝陳委員的建議我覺得看怎麼樣來增加其實跟勞工團體的討論跟溝通我覺得這些建議都是好的那事實上這段時間我們其實我自己的上任之後其實也跟很多工會團體持續的在做很多的討論跟諮詢最重要你自己是等於是勞運出身嘛這個是那你要隨時就是說幫他們勞工的立場我想你當時臨危受命也應該是你過去的背景嘛所以我希望部長你不要讓勞團找不到你啦"},{"start":14786.947,"end":14793.213,"text":"就是說不能當部長就不理你過去的戰友我們持續都要跟很多勞團在做討論"},{"start":14797.443,"end":14815.187,"text":"我知道下面我這個問題是因為很多人都關心過了之前的這個來質詢的委員就業安定基金的使用所以我知道你有回答說這個到底你們自己統計的部分明目不符合就業安定基金的部分還有你這個追查這個錢怎麼追回來這個進度等等我聽到你有回答其他委員說願意把這個資料給他們對不對"},{"start":14822.308,"end":14836.498,"text":"這樣沒有錯就是在審計部的相關的報告跟認定出來以後那我們是很願意把我們的回覆提供給你知道這件事因為你必須好好做的理由是這一次很多在野黨的立委為什麼會勘緊荷包的理由"},{"start":14838.419,"end":14857.599,"text":"就是過去被亂用被濫用服用所以這是個事實還有人被收押禁建所以基本上就是說這件事情我覺得你當然要概括承受所以就是說我們要了解這個禁建陳董我跟你說明也因為我們很重視這件事情所以我們才用機制面來提出強化救安基金把關的整體的方案"},{"start":14859.12,"end":14869.843,"text":"對未來就我們要全力的避免什麼拿來做軌道燈啊那這些事情我們都會全力的避免用機制的方式來避免部長就業安定金的預算你看本席原來有11個提案那我非常注重這件事因為大家在看就業安定金怎麼用那第一點就是如何確保它不被濫用那這個部分因為您親自到辦公室來說明你有答應說要用在第一線要用在服務人民的業務"},{"start":14886.226,"end":14892.227,"text":"直接服務勞動的業務那我買單啊我買單這個你說我買單那第二個我有告訴過你說大幅增加的預算你要做清楚的說明你的計畫是什麼你要怎麼用對不對那這個部分前幾天勞動部來到辦公室跟我們溝通我們也都接受了所以11條有11個提案我全部按照勞動部的建議去簽名了謝謝陳委員我要跟您談就是說"},{"start":14913.956,"end":14926.623,"text":"現在監督行政部門本來就是我們立委的責任執政黨要好好溝通承諾說我要好好做事把資料清楚的呈現出來不要動輒抹黑在野黨好嗎恐嚇說人民說福利會不見啊會怎麼樣啊就是我也希望說"},{"start":14932.987,"end":14942.957,"text":"大家不要因為這樣不溝通然後抹黑然後行政跟立法對立這樣好嗎有11個提案我現在都簽了我們非常非常願意跟這個朝野黨團的委員溝通我們非常願意但是"},{"start":14949.744,"end":14976.035,"text":"如果有些相關的作為其實對於人民的福利或人民受到照顧的狀況會受到影響某個部分我們還是必須讓社會知道我就是要溝通嘛以前增加很多要講清楚過去大家都是因為過去的做法有疑慮所以這次我們把關就會緊嘛那你就是做一些改變或計畫那大家就買單了我說這是一個很好的例子啊行政跟立法不一定要是對立的啊"},{"start":14976.275,"end":14983.521,"text":"當然但是各有其責嘛當然所以我就把這個事情做好好嗎好謝謝好謝謝部長好謝謝主席好謝謝陳委員謝謝部長那接下來請劉巡庭委員來做詢問部長我們等一下投影片"},{"start":15010.821,"end":15014.467,"text":"好 謝謝主席 洪部長有請來 請部長"},{"start":15021.604,"end":15045.408,"text":"你委員好部長 吳安 辛苦了這個很多委員今天在勞動部的業務報告裡面質詢都提到台灣工時過長的問題嘛那部長知不知道這個兩天前內政委員會我們在做這個節日紀念日實施這個條例的審查的時候劉世芳部長講說還我七天假是特定團體綁架勞工的假議題您認同這樣的說法嗎我沒有特別看到"},{"start":15049.056,"end":15066.793,"text":"你沒有特別看到你的次長也在旁邊啦這個你們要好好跟進一下這個題目因為雖然他是內政部主責這之前前一個會期本席在那邊質詢的時候你講說你要尊重主管機關這我當然理解但這個畢竟跟勞工的權益是有關的我希望部長回去了解一下這件事情啦那你現在聽到我是如實轉述喔你覺得這樣說法妥當嗎"},{"start":15069.728,"end":15084.936,"text":"我想應該是說作為行政部門比較是希望說我們在這個制度面的討論那怎麼樣子在一個公平性一致性的一些原則下面好好討論我猜因為我對不起我真的是沒有看到"},{"start":15086.827,"end":15108.313,"text":"這個訊息啦剛剛也有很多委員提醒你因為你曾經也跟這個社運界嘛跟很多的團體其實都有很好的關係嘛你也曾經幫他們講話那我今天就不在這個題目上再多逼問你了但是請你好好瞭解因為我認為這樣子的說法對很多的勞工團體特別是現在都還在積極爭取要讓勞工工時下降的這些團體來講這樣的說法是非常非常不公平的是讓人家非常傷心的請部長好好瞭解一下"},{"start":15109.053,"end":15126.648,"text":"那我就再問啦那這個現在大家在談節日與紀念日實施條例這個修正當然其實到最後就要進入深水區也就是說如果增加國定假日要增加幾天那剛剛委員有幾位委員都有問到這個問題你講說用什麼開放的態度來討論正向積極的角度來面對你有沒有更具體的一點說法"},{"start":15129.334,"end":15140.107,"text":"我還是要說明因為關於國定假日的相關的制度的法規主管機關是在內政部但這段時間當然有在行政部門跨部門裡面有相關的討論我們也願意參與"},{"start":15141.553,"end":15164.22,"text":"那所以從勞動部的立場跟角度來說我們覺得當然如果通盤的考慮包括各個領域的一些工作包括工商的情境那尤其是勞工的需求的狀況之下那我們認為國定假日的調整這個議題從勞動部的角度我們認為有正向討論的空間叫正向討論的空間部長你知不知道內政部長那時候講說不會有院版"},{"start":15165.083,"end":15193.608,"text":"就這個條例不會有院版你知道這個事嗎已經確定了嗎因為你剛剛回答前面委員的時候你講說你們內部有在做溝通不是但他講的應該是要不要立法這件事情對啊但因為國定價格的討論裡面一個事情是國定價格要不要調整跟另外一個是這個相關的制度要不要所以你覺得要不要立法要不要立法那因為這個立法法規的主管機關在尊重內政部那這個關於立法的形式或法規規範的形式的部分現在立法這部分我們尊重內政部"},{"start":15193.988,"end":15217.25,"text":"現在立法的流程已經在進行,你從勞動部主管機關的立場啦,就是幫勞工講話的立場,你覺得應該剩下幾天,多大?我想天數的部分還是一樣,我覺得這部分是...剩下該放的立場?對。部長,剛剛我聽了楊耀委員的質詢其實很有感,就是說到底要放國定假日放七天,還是特休放七天,其實你站...我已經提醒你好幾次了,你站在勞動部的主管機關立場,你當然講都好,只要能夠降低工時都好。"},{"start":15218.104,"end":15240.002,"text":"當然你站在...站在勞動部部長的本位你本來就應該要幫勞工講話最後的決定當然是你們行政團隊要討論這我願意尊重但如果連主管的勞動部站在勞工的立場講話都不敢大聲講出來這樣的聲音的時候那我們真的很懷疑喔我們現在民進黨政府到底有沒有心要解決工時的問題啦來剛剛楊耀文講特休其實我今天想要討論一下這件事情喔"},{"start":15240.162,"end":15265.99,"text":"所以我們算這個年度總工時台灣當然是所謂的過勞之島但工時其實有分所謂的制度工時跟實際工時實際工時當然含加班等等實際狀況在內那個就超過2000小時很多委員提我就不再提了我們今天在討論的叫做制度工時的狀況因為它跟特休假的安排是有關係的按照勞動基準法57條所謂勞動工作的年資是要以同一事業為限那麼決定特休假能夠有幾天其實跟勞工的年資是掛鉤的"},{"start":15267.33,"end":15291.776,"text":"那以實務上你這個統計結果112年行政院主計總署事業人力雇傭狀況調查統計結果來綜合分析其實台灣有93.2%的勞工啊服務的年資是在10年以下的為什麼呢因為大部分勞工是中小企業嘛中小企業的雖然這樣講有一點點難過啦但中小企業的平均壽命其實並沒有非常的長這個換言之我們現在對特休假制度的一個設計啊如果真的能夠達到"},{"start":15293.656,"end":15319.206,"text":"達到一年有30天的特休你要有30年的年資嘛這幾乎是鳳毛麟角大部分的勞工93.2其實都只有10年以下的年資換言之其實實務上台灣勞工實務的特休假大概頂了天大概就15天啦所以按照這樣子的一個比較基準如果我們要跟日本韓國跟新加坡比起來的話其實你可以看到你看後面好像台灣的特休是最多的啊對不對你看我們到30天其他國家都沒有到30天但是實務上是什麼"},{"start":15321.207,"end":15346.209,"text":"93.2%其實要看圖表的左半邊我們這個左半邊的數字好看嗎其實是不好看的年度總工時也是一樣看起來年次越長總工時會降下來但是其實前面我們數字不好看的地方才是93.2%主流勞工現在的待遇我為什麼今天要去提這個我當然希望勞動部這邊也針對勞動基準法的修正去增加特休假但第一個我們現在不管是"},{"start":15346.969,"end":15370.637,"text":"國定假日的法案或者是特休的法案我們都沒有看到院版嘛這第一個第二個即便你現在在勞動計算法這邊去規範特休假的增加你怎麼樣跨越年資的問題現在都沒有辦法所以為什麼我們要回頭去修這個國定假日的法案為什麼我們講要立法就是因為它可以立刻降低叫做制度工時嘛我加了七天的國定假日我的制度工時就是會降低七天的這個工時嘛"},{"start":15371.437,"end":15397.806,"text":"另外也是因為國定假日它是有社會的集約的反應嘛社會集體放假它也比較容易帶動實際工時的下降所以我必須要講現在大家要去討論修訂這個紀念日與節日實施條例基本上就是因為它又快又準嘛這個圖表告訴你如果加上了七天假我把七天假還給勞工之後你的93.2%的這個區間你的制度年總工時就跟日韓是差不多的水準"},{"start":15398.446,"end":15417.044,"text":"換言之我們把七天假還給勞工我們也不會因為這樣就比日韓放更多的假頂多跟他差不多而已但是這樣子的一個放假是93.2%的勞工大部分的勞工可以立刻享受到的這個是修特休的盲點但本席完全不反對你們在特休方面也天才家夥因為台灣是過勞之島是一個事實啊"},{"start":15417.645,"end":15437.578,"text":"我們希望看到的是多重的討論但我也要很遺憾的點出一個現實也就是說不管特休也好 國定假日也好行政端裹足不前我們現在去選擇修國定假日是因為那速度快而且馬上有效所以我希望部長不要再只是開放正向的態度經過這樣子的討論之後你要不要再積極一點 再具體一點"},{"start":15438.459,"end":15453.987,"text":"最後我想其實這段時間跟其他部會在這個議題在國定價值議題上面的討論我們都是都是非常非常樂意一起參與討論的我們從來沒有覺得這是別人的事情但是確實主管是在別的部會所以我們是願意參與討論的我們也積極的參與這些討論"},{"start":15457.219,"end":15477.535,"text":"那要不要讓他調整讓台灣的總工時稍微降下來一點自主工時降下來一點從勞動部的角度當然都會希望這工時的部分是能夠再降低的我們從勞動部的角度當然是希望再降低的那所以剛才說因為現在討論國定假日的議題的時候我說從勞動部的立場來說我們認為這是有正向討論的空間"},{"start":15481.257,"end":15498.089,"text":"好吧 反正這個題目才剛開始那我也提醒部長很多過去時代在街頭上面的戰友是很期待政府有積極作為的他們很快又會在街頭上面集結希望勞動部做好準備我還是不厭其煩的再次提醒你就要站在勞動部的本位"},{"start":15498.749,"end":15518.997,"text":"去大力的支持勞工這個才是台灣人民會想要看到的好不好勞動部當然是要站在勞工的立場這個當然是要站在勞工的立場還只是正當積極的態度是蠻可惜的啦包括跟相關部會的討論我們當然都是站在勞工的立場好 謝謝啦好 謝謝接下來請張雅琳委員來做詢問"},{"start":15529.993,"end":15538.697,"text":"謝謝主席 有請勞動部長請紅部長不好意思 我們等一下投影片張委員好"},{"start":15544.585,"end":15568.617,"text":"好沒關係我先開始好了部長想要請教一下就是其實從去年的這個勞動部的無性公務員因長期的職場壓力輕生之後呢那時候其實有揭露了非常非常多的事實也引發了非常多公務員在這個職場上面遇到一些霸凌的問題那其實有非常多的投訴啦所以到現在其實已經四個月了我想針對這件事情再做一些積極的討論"},{"start":15570.678,"end":15597.904,"text":"那就是說其實在上個月其實部長當時有公布一個叫做執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的一個公告就是希望可以去強化僱主對於職場霸凌的一個防治責任來保障我們勞工的身心健康那在這個指引通過之後下一個階段應該就是要在職安法增訂這個防治霸凌的專章那我想要請教一下目前有沒有一個時程表"},{"start":15598.824,"end":15620.199,"text":"我們在職場辦專章因為已經開了三次的跟專家學的討論以後現在在法條上面的擬定其實已經進到收尾的階段那我自己是希望說我們趕快在這個法條上面的草案確定以後就可以盡快的來預告那有沒有一個大概的時程呢我是希望盡快盡快對大概"},{"start":15621.573,"end":15650.14,"text":"多久 可能幾個禮拜內吧幾個禮拜內 OK好那就是說 因為其實這部分啦就是非常非常多人關心所以也希望就是說收集大家意見的時候我們可以在一個月之後可以看到一個相關的版本所以我們預告之後然後我會送到行政院來做審議然後希望趕快就送到立法院裡面我們目標還是在這會期送進立法院好 謝謝那我也想要提醒洪部長一件事情我這好像沒有辦法按 幫我按下一頁好了"},{"start":15652.823,"end":15681.781,"text":"我想提醒部長一件事情就是霸凌的定義其實在教育部的時候他101年有制定一個校園霸凌防制準則那可是因為後來其實也發生了許多網路霸凌的事件像是104年的Cindy事件然後當年其實統計校園遭受霸凌大概有五萬五千名學生所以當時大家朝野立委都認為我們應該訂定一個防止霸凌專法但是教育部有提醒一件事情就是說霸凌的形態其實是持續的在改變所以不要用專法來制定"},{"start":15682.401,"end":15692.297,"text":"避免到時候可能會有一些樣態是沒有辦法使用這個霸凌的定義所以他們後來是使用這個防治準則那這次新修正的指引的職場霸凌的規定"},{"start":15694.286,"end":15717.692,"text":"是這樣寫的 勞工與執行職務在勞動場所中受同仁主管部署藉由職務權利濫用或不公平對待所造成的持續性的冒犯威脅冷落孤立或侮辱行為使受害勞工感到受挫被羞辱被威脅被孤立及受傷危害其身心健康跟安全提出了七種樣態"},{"start":15719.272,"end":15745.752,"text":"但是呢這七種樣態出來之後其實外界也是有持續發出一些聲音那我這邊整理一下主要的爭議就是來自於說到底什麼叫做持續性好 勞動不定的持續性跟權力濫用可是實務判斷上我們如何認定呢什麼樣的程度的言行是構成了權力濫用那這些可能有高度的主觀性可能會有認定上的困難第二個部分"},{"start":15747.093,"end":15768.355,"text":"被霸凌者其實往往舉證非常的困難尤其是言語霸凌啦心靈霸凌等等的可能缺乏具體的證據或者是沒有第三人在場的情況之下那我們雖然有一些申訴管道但是不是能夠有效的保護申訴者不被報復那這才是一個疑慮啦第三個部分就是我們把這個"},{"start":15770.016,"end":15785.726,"text":"霸凌的行為者呢擴大到主管同事之間的多種主體可是如果實務上如果這個霸凌來自於客戶或是服務對象的話雇主可能很難直接的控制或干預那這就會有規則歸屬的一個很模糊的狀態"},{"start":15786.667,"end":15803.227,"text":"所以我在想是不是也可以把相關的意見再做一些收集那也可以讓我們知道說這個法律的定義上面要怎麼來處理因為這可能就會連動到未來公務人員防止霸凌防治的一個法律意涵所以這部分是不是可以請勞動部再做更仔細的釐清"},{"start":15803.988,"end":15820.466,"text":"好跟張委員說明確實比方說因為從很多實務上面來看比方說確實我們在國際上面會看到有些他會要會強調說要有所謂的持續性那當然持續性怎麼認定或者是在持續性這個問題上面有沒有一些"},{"start":15822.028,"end":15840.625,"text":"比較開放性的討論的空間那這部分其實我們在我們自己的專章裡面我們都有做相關的思考但是你現在裡面講到的一些問題包括標準認定的問題其實我們自己也參考了一些國際的法律確實對職場霸凌的認定都"},{"start":15845.029,"end":15871.061,"text":"大家都有表達這個認定上面好像不容易好像某個做法就能夠切得一乾二淨就在國際上面都是這樣子的討論所以都有這個狀況可是我們盡量的把這些東西納入我們在我們法治工作裡面的考慮這樣子那其實在第二個問題我是想要來問一下部長你有聽過三明治世代嗎你知道什麼是三明治世代嗎知道"},{"start":15871.621,"end":15888.677,"text":"你可以大概講一下三明治世代是什麼嗎就是這中間可能夾在要顧老又顧小沒錯就是其實我就是所謂的三明治世代啦我上面有長輩下面有小孩嘛那其實我們常常會遇到一個現實的問題就是小孩生病長輩生病的時候到底我們應該如何的去選"},{"start":15889.938,"end":15905.886,"text":"如何的在工作跟職場上面去做一個平衡所以如果國家可以支持我們的話讓家長可以安心的去請這個家庭照顧假的話其實就是可以更支持我們女性不要因為經濟收入可能普遍比男性來的低而成為最後必須要請假"},{"start":15907.166,"end":15925.428,"text":"來去支援照顧育兒或是顧長輩的一個犧牲角色那其實民間團體這幾年一直有來倡議就是說希望勞工的家庭工作假可以比照公務員有7天的有薪假那我不曉得多我不曉得說部長您的看法我其實有算過大概一年是740億啦您的看法是什麼"},{"start":15927.868,"end":15936.592,"text":"確實我們在評估如果這個家庭照顧假要有薪的話每一天可能是會是上百億的狀況所以7天的話可能會是700多億"},{"start":15937.769,"end":15958.229,"text":"700多億對那目前的話是規劃下一步是要怎麼來有算過嗎那我其實跟張委員說明就是說因為剛才在講到像照顧不離職這樣子的目標但是我覺得我們整體的這個目標那關於家庭照顧價的強化這是做法"},{"start":15959.141,"end":15974.461,"text":"就大家提議的做法之一那可是這些相關的做法當然會牽涉到財源跟財政的問題尤其是在現在財務法的修訂之後中央其實可以整體調度的財源又比過去來的少"},{"start":15975.763,"end":15995.994,"text":"那剛剛在你的投影片裡面有講到說這個今年的這個稅劇剩餘的部分可是因為稅劇剩餘並不是每年都一定會有的可是如果今天我要把它變成是一個制度性的制度的話他應該會是要每年都會有持續性的裁員而沒有辦法只是說今年看起來稅劇剩餘比較多所以就可以拿來補可是明年如果沒有稅劇剩餘就沒辦法補"},{"start":15996.634,"end":16017.611,"text":"可能就不會是這個狀況所以我們基本上目前還是希望比方透過休假的制度或者是留庭的制度怎麼樣讓它更彈性更好用的方式來去兼顧也不只是女性啦照顧家庭跟職場需求上面的平衡那這部分我們還在研擬之中那應該希望盡快的可以來跟大家來做討論"},{"start":16019.332,"end":16035.818,"text":"所以目前就是在架上面去做一些調整或者是留庭的做法留庭的做法上面其實怎麼樣更有彈性可以更靈活更能夠兼顧大家實際上面的需求所以就在育嬰留庭上面可能還會有一些調整的空間就對了我們認為是有空間好 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請黃婕委員來做詢問"},{"start":16048.103,"end":16049.665,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請紅部長來有請部長黃維好"},{"start":16056.758,"end":16059.781,"text":"好部長時間短短的我先來關心這個產價跟賠產價的狀況因為我真的是很擔心啊其實從去年年底大家在討論總預算的時候我就已經不斷的在說哇這樣子預算砍下去到底會不會影響你們補助產價跟這個呃賠產價的補助那我就我所知其實勞動部也是很願意照顧"},{"start":16080.178,"end":16099.734,"text":"這個就是要願意來請產假跟陪產假的人嘛就是如果有請假的話你們是七天你們是願意補助兩天的所以在這個預算被砍之後到底會受到什麼實質的影響可不可以在部長這邊明確的跟勞工們說那這個是我現在最擔心的一件事情"},{"start":16100.034,"end":16115.112,"text":"因為在現在是在就業平等業務這個項目裡面在1月的預算審查裡面被砍了800萬然後被動了兩成在將近2000萬加起來可能是在那個項目裡面將近三成那關於產價賠償減價我們的獎勵補助其實是在這裡面"},{"start":16118.776,"end":16141.736,"text":"大概比例是非常高的可能八九成都是在這個項目裡面所以按照這個刪減跟凍結的狀況勢必會影響產價跟培安減價我們蔣補助的發放這當然就影響到很多新手爸媽的權益所以這是我們覺得比較遺憾的事情好我問一個比較明確的就是現在這個預算砍下去我們大概只能發到幾月"},{"start":16143.679,"end":16160.568,"text":"應該是下半年吧下半年那也就是說下半年的新手爸媽想要來使用這個補助很可能就請不到了是這樣嗎就是這個刪減跟凍結的狀況我們認為如果這個到下半年可能就會有補助上面會用完的情況"},{"start":16161.488,"end":16173.691,"text":"好這就是我最擔心的我很擔心說到今年下半年新手爸媽就失去了這一項福利那如果啦真的下半年預算沒有被解凍那我們勞動部打算怎麼"},{"start":16177.358,"end":16199.981,"text":"我們還是希望能夠想盡辦法來協助可是這當然都會是權力上面的影響這是為什麼我們很期待之前的復議的原因但是恐怕還是會有一些權力會受到影響但是這部分因應我們當然部內還要再做一些討論"},{"start":16201.072,"end":16223.409,"text":"好 謝謝部長 這個是我真的很擔心啦今年下半年新手爸媽的權益就要被影響了所以我在這邊一定要來幫新手爸媽來發聲那當然我會認為說這一波的預算砍下去不只是對勞工很傷 對資方也很傷簡直就是勞資雙輸 損人不利己那這樣的砍預算到底有什麼意義呢"},{"start":16224.17,"end":16239.363,"text":"那最後一點時間我來請教一下這個麥當勞案的後續啊因為其實這個案子大家也非常的關注那就我所知去年底這個麥當勞的性侵案發生之後台北市勞動局有去調查然後呢最後對麥當勞是裁罰了一百萬"},{"start":16241.545,"end":16262.696,"text":"那原因是因為這個麥當勞沒有進到性別平等工作法裡面的要求就是說雇主在知道有性騷擾情形的時候並沒有及時的採取有效的糾正以及補救的措施那甚至我認為有一點令人遺憾而且非常氣憤的是直到這個事件就是這個受害者他"},{"start":16263.876,"end":16291.556,"text":"自殺之後事件爆發之後麥當勞才出來說要帶這個諮商心理師來關心受害者的家屬那這種時候的關心都已經於事無補了都為時已晚了所以我認為這個職場上面的性騷擾的防治還有這個相關的職場的指引是不是可以再加強即便是麥當勞這麼大的公司耶這麼大的公司我認為他們相關的資能也非常的不足"},{"start":16292.997,"end":16320.296,"text":"其實在這個事件之後我想大家其實看了都都會都很傷心那我們當然現在台北市政府其實是有做出相關的裁法但我們也會來做出針對像性供針對性供法這個職場的性騷擾的問題或者是職場性騷擾的問題來的防治來做專案的勞檢這部分其實我們的勞檢單位其實針對這個主題我們會特別來做那也希望"},{"start":16320.916,"end":16333.797,"text":"接下來其實可能有一些比例我們也希望能夠邀請一些專家能夠陪同來做勞檢因為這個跟性平的議題有關的其實是需要一些專家在現場其實來看我們的防治的作為會不會有效"},{"start":16334.38,"end":16351.053,"text":"好謝謝部長說明最後因為我知道說現在勞動部是不是針對那個職場上面的性騷以及性別相關的一些輔導有一些補助那這可不可以讓大家知道說這個是如何來補助企業做這方面的智能培訓"},{"start":16352.056,"end":16377.038,"text":"好那我們跟委員報告那針對這個我們NGO的部分我們大概有起了一個計畫我們希望說透過我們除了自己勞動部辦訓以外有其他的NGO能夠幫我們協助深入各個我們看不到的一些角落那這個部分的話大概整個的那個相關的補助我們申請是受理到4月然後我們後面會跟這些NGO團體一起來共同推動"},{"start":16377.881,"end":16398.595,"text":"好那我知道說你們平常可能宣傳也宣傳相關的預算可能也有被砍到所以被砍了所以我在這邊幫你們宣傳啦我認為這是一個很好的政策這個相關的防治措施那你們既然願意提供那就讓職場上各種企業都多多來申請那大家一起來提升性別意識"},{"start":16399.535,"end":16418.789,"text":"老人部也很需要這些第三部門一起來協助因為關於職場的性騷擾或性侵害相關的防治其實是很需要公司一起來協力的所以我們很樂意提供這些相關的資源來去協助民間的組織一起跟我們合作我想我們是用這個精神在規劃這樣的資源好 謝謝部長的說明 謝謝好 謝謝接下來請李坤城委員來做選答"},{"start":16438.237,"end":16467.563,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請洪部長先喝口水再上來請部長各位好部長好辛苦了那其實我們在這邊都是很關心勞動部的預算問一下勞動部預算今年被砍了多少非統棟統山的部分是八千但是如果把整體的砍山是八千那整個凍結在一億八"},{"start":16469.008,"end":16474.155,"text":"刪掉8000然後凍結118那凍結18億來再說一次有點偷昏了來再說一次刪除的部分是8000然後凍結的部分是18億"},{"start":16484.531,"end":16486.753,"text":"那這個時間有限剛剛黃姐也在關心就是說這個新手爸媽他們的這個產檢的產檢價的薪資的補助跟賠產檢還有賠產檢價的薪資的補助那這部分呢預算被刪除了800萬"},{"start":16505.411,"end":16520.997,"text":"然後被凍結了這個一千九百四十二萬那這個是本來是要給這一個微小型的企業因為多了兩天由政府來補助嘛那所以呢這樣下去的話這補助我剛聽下半年就沒有了那下半年大概是到幾月就沒有了"},{"start":16522.358,"end":16546.38,"text":"其實可能假設以這個刪減跟凍結的狀況的話如果沒有辦法解凍的話可能到八九月八九月就沒有因為生小孩這件事情他沒辦法去控制時間了嘛他可能就下半年十月十一月的時候要生啊那時候之前要去陪產檢啊那所以說這個對於新手爸媽來講我覺得啦我覺得真的是"},{"start":16547.1,"end":16552.365,"text":"他們心裡會覺得說那為什麼這個債務黨要砍這個預算那這個預算對他們來講是不無小補啊你看有產檢價的薪資補助賠產檢的薪資補助那我是希望說這個"},{"start":16564.533,"end":16588.34,"text":"這個胃環這邊齁這個是胃環這邊解凍就可以了嗎還是要到到這個大院這部分應該是應該是胃環會解凍嗎我是希望說能夠趕快解凍啦不然對這個新手爸媽來講八九月那如果是預產期是在那個時候該怎麼辦因為解凍當然還是有它的不確定性當然我們就希望是可以趕快讓我們比較有效的使用這些資源好那"},{"start":16588.908,"end":16611.36,"text":"另外這個是新手吧第二個勞動力發展署你們的業務費也被刪除了1000萬然後勞動力發展署的一般行政項目被刪減了3576萬所以說你們說勞動力發展署有400多名的第一線人員心知面臨發放困難這些是指那些約聘僱的第一線人員嗎"},{"start":16613.646,"end":16617.97,"text":"那怎麼辦呢因為這裡面因為我們法案署業務費被刪了1000萬重點還有後面我們還凍結了20%所以凍結了4000多萬這個刪減跟凍結的狀況加起來其實是超過5000萬的"},{"start":16630.803,"end":16654.197,"text":"那我們其實有很多第一線的一些這個救福人員他們的薪資其實是我們用這個業務費在做相關的補助的所以在這個三減跟凍結的狀況之下可能就會對於這些救福人員地方上面我們補助的救福人員的這個薪資的發放會造成困難"},{"start":16655.004,"end":16673.746,"text":"所以說200多位這個是屬於第一線的他們是服務這些等於是第一線的工作人員就對了是 他就是就業服務人員那他們的薪水比如說這個大概能夠發到幾月份所以我們其實現在其實已經已經開始有點欲缺不補了"},{"start":16675.578,"end":16694.061,"text":"那目前大概也是會到如果這個刪減跟凍結的狀況下面也是到如果沒有辦法解凍的話到下半年就會有薪資無法足而發放的問題那怎麼辦請他們離職嗎就是我們很不樂意見到對啊好不容易到勞動部來那結果又請他們離職是對啊因為你不能少他們的薪水啊"},{"start":16695.882,"end":16723.782,"text":"對啊所以薪水所以現在所以跟我的說明其實現在真的已經我們已經開始已經有點欲缺不補了然後對就已經已經開始有欲缺不補的狀況然後因為避免到時候薪資發放的風險那真的會對於我們很多這些辛苦工作的工作人員那現在也是還有200多名現在的現在還有200多名好那你說那個下面那個勞動力發展所一般行政"},{"start":16724.597,"end":16751.592,"text":"三百分之十 三千五百七十六萬凍結百分之二十 七千多萬加起來多少 一億喔對那所以這個也會影響到公務人員 技工公有的薪資喔是 因為其實很多都是用這個一般行政的經費其實在做相關我們包括技工公有的薪資在做指引那所以咧所以如果到下半年沒有錢了這些人也是要請他們離開嗎 還是怎麼樣"},{"start":16753.98,"end":16768.65,"text":"根據委員報告基本上我們會先維持基本的行政維持必要的一個工作那這個部分我們會盡量留住會保障同仁的一個薪資方面的一個權益然後會從其他的行政費用去做準解處理有辦法嗎"},{"start":16770.758,"end":16792.311,"text":"還是要爭取解凍對啊我的意思就是說來勞動部工作那結果因為被在野黨砍人的預算那結果面臨這個在勞動部裡面要面臨被離職的這個問題那我覺得那不是我覺得真的是對他們來講情何以堪下一個這個你們的這個基本行政工作"},{"start":16793.171,"end":16820.94,"text":"預算刪除一千萬凍結了一千五百八十三萬那所以咧你們這些清潔人員保全的人也會受到影響其實已經影響了其實我們在部裡面其實有些承染人力其實已經在三月三月一號已經離職了三月 那就這個月就離職了已經離職了有多少人現在已經離職了九位九位已經離職了那你們這個大概有幾位啊"},{"start":16824.522,"end":16838.492,"text":"你今天講的是指清潔人員跟保全嗎就是保全我們承攬的部分保全已經就是2月28號是最後一天然後現在已經無法再繼續再提他們的契約是多久啊"},{"start":16839.633,"end":16854.3,"text":"他們的契約我們通常是一年一標所以他們契約本來是到今年的12月31號但是因為因為我們預算的刪減那有些費用其實是不能是基本性基本的維持沒有辦法刪減的情況下我們只能非常非常無奈的就是讓9個這些呃承攬的人離然後在3月1號離職"},{"start":16858.803,"end":16874.163,"text":"那所以預算繼續不解凍的話會有更多的離職就對了對 如果不解凍的話會有下一波連水電的支付都會出現問題連勞動部的整個辦公行政的一般的維持如果持續不解凍的話都會出現問題的"},{"start":16876.565,"end":16903.621,"text":"我覺得這很悲哀的事情今天不是說因為你哪裡做不好然後這個砍運算那今天砍到的第一個新手爸媽那第二個這些最基層的這些工友濟工這些都受到影響那真的希望那當然我們趙委在這邊他也希望說能夠趕快去做解凍但是被刪除的就沒有辦法了好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝李委 謝謝部長接下來請鄭天才委員來做詢問"},{"start":16909.772,"end":16911.632,"text":"沒有啊,順序是你啊"},{"start":16934.977,"end":16955.327,"text":"好主席好謝謝各位委員有請部長來有請部長好好辛苦了哈這個勞資正義法律及生活費用付出辦法第三條哈這第一項特別提到這個"},{"start":16957.833,"end":16972.807,"text":"金主管機關調解不成立而向法院申請勞動調解或起訴非屬有資歷者得申請輔助這第一款第二款第三款都有規定好這個這裡面"},{"start":16979.369,"end":17008.056,"text":"最主要就是說提到這個前三項之申請以訴訟程序進入第二審第三審或再審者得不經主管集團調解程序申請前條第一款之輔助而這樣的一個規定現行的這個規定如果透過訴訟程序取得執行名義之後卻沒有辦法按照現行的規定"},{"start":17009.417,"end":17032.453,"text":"或者是說他自己去訴訟,然後他也就起了執行名義嘛,就沒有包含在這裡面。然後這個相關的這樣的一個規定,對一個勞工而言,確實就是他有需要去,他又無資歷啊,是不是可以做這樣的一個修正啊。"},{"start":17036.915,"end":17049.763,"text":"謝謝委員那因為我們所有的訴訟輔助我們都會定期的做檢討那這個部分我們也會再來做未來再做檢討修正的時候再來研究好這個這個一定要去做檢討修正因為這個"},{"start":17053.976,"end":17081.128,"text":"他勞資正義基本上勞工都是比較弱勢的地方然後經過你們的調整調解程序之後有的有的主管機那個雇主也不同意啊對不對按照你們的標準應該是可以結果雇主不願意只好進入訴訟程序類似像這樣的一定要把它做一個導正這是第一個部分"},{"start":17082.233,"end":17107.278,"text":"第二個部分就是說這個這個法規啊勞資正義法律及生活費用輔助辦法如果我們看這個前面的所謂的非屬有自立者非屬有自立者這個部分這個一個認定這個認定的部分"},{"start":17109.352,"end":17132.999,"text":"多久沒有做一個修正或是跟委員報告我們的智力其實比中低收入都可以更高那我們都會隨現在的物價會做一些調整我們因為這個部分我們都是跟法輔基金會合作那法輔基金會也都會在做這樣的一個調整所以我們會定期會來檢視這樣的智力的限制會不會過嚴過苛這部分我們都會處理好這個必須要"},{"start":17137.456,"end":17154.333,"text":"這個你們要去查當時是什麼時候訂的那現在經過這麼多年的要不要修正要不要檢討對 物價指數也要去協調這個那個司法院嘛法輔基金會這是第二個第三個就是說"},{"start":17159.733,"end":17174.768,"text":"這個輔助的經費輔助的基準在第七條有規定第七條裡面四萬塊輔助的標準我這邊沒有列四萬塊現行的條文而這個現行的條文四萬塊"},{"start":17177.771,"end":17204.742,"text":"是從民國100年4月發布這個辦法的時候到現在100年了現在是114年 14年了所以這個4萬塊也要做一個應該要做調整這部分我們其實並不是給錢的我們是指派律師的方式我知道我是說你一個"},{"start":17206.089,"end":17220.062,"text":"在第7條我念一下第7條勞動調節訴訟代理酬金輔助基準如下對所以這個部分這個好你一併去檢討好接下來這個"},{"start":17224.11,"end":17250.438,"text":"在你的報告裡面有特別提到促進薪資透明化牢固雙方資訊對等這裡面你的報告特別提到這個4萬塊107年的時候是未達4萬元經常性薪資未達4萬元然後要調整一定要調整今年是調整門檻5萬元這個部分的一個狀況是這樣"},{"start":17253.552,"end":17281.625,"text":"這個到底利還是不利本來心知透明化嘛你原來的用意是對的沒有錯那怎麼樣去評估這個部分本來你們原來的這個良善目的是良善的是對的那會不會產生其他的後遺症還是說我的直接建議我的直接建議"},{"start":17283.467,"end":17309.629,"text":"心智透明化這個就我們原住民勞工而言很多都沒有他明明在這個地方工作然後卻沒有加入勞保心智還是有領喔心智還是有領沒有加入勞保他不給他再加入勞保所以怎麼樣去勞動部跟勞保局去如果有這個心智透明化的制度"},{"start":17311.686,"end":17336.001,"text":"這個機制跟各位說這個機制主要是針對其實我們在很多求職或者是求財的這個廣告上面有時候常常雇主會用免疫我知道我原來的用意我知道你們原來的用意有時候免疫其實會這個我們希望能夠讓讓勞工的得到更多的資訊也讓勞工在跟這個雇主在議價薪資議價的時候有更多籌碼這個薪資透明化能不能再擴大"},{"start":17340.164,"end":17340.548,"text":"扣大讓這個"},{"start":17343.532,"end":17370.11,"text":"這個你們勞保勞檢或是企業去檢查的時候到底是不是這個勞工明明在這邊領薪水卻沒有投勞保類似這樣這樣我是做這樣的一個建議啦這其實有點是兩個議題啦那因為我們現在在講的心思透明化的部分比較是針對這個在人才招募過程裡面必須要公開所以這需要法規的支持好這個我剛剛的建議你們也去評估好謝謝"},{"start":17371.391,"end":17389.076,"text":"好謝謝政委謝謝部長接下來請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在請吳立華委員來做詢問謝謝主席再次有請洪部長來請部長"},{"start":17397.424,"end":17410.658,"text":"好 部長好想要請教您一下就是原鄉現在有很多的人都提到他的農業需要無人機那請你看一下他的理由"},{"start":17411.707,"end":17430.382,"text":"第一個是說解決農藥中毒的問題那第二個是說山區的坡度比較大第四期區那第三是平地無人機業者呢不願意上山第四個是可以創造原民的就業機會第五以上皆是部長"},{"start":17435.357,"end":17461.391,"text":"應該是以上解釋謝謝其實還不只這幾個理由還可以再舉好幾個部長您知不知道目前勞動部有沒有原住民無人機的資訊我們目前是有幾個今年是一個就一個嗎部長您知不知道無人機執訊他大概要多久才能夠拿到最基礎的證照"},{"start":17464.292,"end":17488.014,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個部分的職業訓練是由這個訓練單位他所掌握他所要培訓的一個技能那個單元內容來去做所以這個部分目前的證照並不在我們所規定辦理訓練一定要具備的那個辦理條件好那我知道的是一到兩個月因為120個小時那部長我可能你不知道因為我本來也不知道"},{"start":17489.954,"end":17506.471,"text":"這個授訓完了之後他是拿到叫做基本級的操作證就是所謂的只能夠做空拍那如果說要離我剛才講的要能夠去做農業需要的這個噴這個藥的止飽劑"},{"start":17510.515,"end":17525.356,"text":"他其實是依照民航區他是主管機關他有他一定的規範那如果要能夠拿到是要拿到高級那至少要高級1B然後一直到高級2C所以也就是說"},{"start":17526.457,"end":17541.79,"text":"大概還要如果完全很通暢就是拿到基本證照隔一個月之後又去考證又順利通過隔一個月之後又去進階進階進階最快最快最順利最順利也要半年以上那這個狀況我為什麼特別要來提"},{"start":17544.292,"end":17568.582,"text":"因為根據我們的原住民族工作權保障法第15條他就是有特別提到說要依照原住民的一個需求然後呢去提供職業訓練的機會那我在這裡就常常很遺憾我拿這個中分數這應該是中分數的他的類別我們就可以看得到大概一般來講"},{"start":17569.582,"end":17585.872,"text":"都是手作啊或者是歌舞啊做點心做咖啡這一類的居多啦那我也特別感謝中分署為什麼因為剛才講的那個一個就是中分署好像我們的執訊類別"},{"start":17587.333,"end":17608.887,"text":"就比較沒有科技業的那有了之後呢我也很遺憾為什麼因為中分署說可能以後會沒有那問了原因大概是跟什麼有關係因為根據我們這個委託辦理職前訓練的作業原則他有一個部分是寫到說訓練單位要把這個結案報告含活動內容與結訓後90日內的就業成果"},{"start":17618.254,"end":17624.339,"text":"也就是說三個月就需要就業那他的績效指標會看不出就業率"},{"start":17626.058,"end":17653.111,"text":"所以呢偏偏跟我們這個我們要辦理執訓是要訓練他能夠投入農業能夠用無人機去做噴藥噴灑結果呢他沒有辦法透過這一次的訓練就完成這個可能會造成我們整個做職業訓練的一個困擾那我也要在這邊跟部長說就是這個原鄉我們很需要無人機"},{"start":17654.332,"end":17681.139,"text":"不僅僅是講農業因為我們的地形真的是又陡又崎嶇說一句實在話如果能夠善用無人機現代科技不僅僅解決那個農藥中毒的問題其實可以節省很多的人力而且可以鼓勵我們的青年返鄉但實際上它的應用在我們的山區包括救災像上次有一個新聞被毒蛇咬傷"},{"start":17682.279,"end":17697.865,"text":"用這個無人機去送那個血清10分鐘就可以送達那這樣的這個例子很多包括上次那個明巴克路橋斷橋那運送物資卡魯颱風時期呢用無人機運送物資其實都很方便甚至像現在的繪圖還有進法補償都可以用無人機來去做一個配套所以呢這個無人機對原住民的持訊來講"},{"start":17709.11,"end":17723.89,"text":"我覺得很多人都來跟我們澄清說非常的需要所以在這邊就是跟部長來做一個要求就是要嘛就重新檢視相關的就業機會去做一個規定的一個調整"},{"start":17724.891,"end":17741.065,"text":"我想這個也不是法律如果能夠去做一個調整就很好那又或者是說能跟原民會農業部一起來研擬原鄉就業導向的一個無人機課程直接導入就業市場那部長您的意見如何"},{"start":17742.581,"end":17763.615,"text":"我想其實我完全可以感受到那個委員其實在提的這個計畫我自己是覺得我們如果這些相關的KPI的指標如果有需要調整的部分那我們就我們當然可以來做一些相關的檢討那對於原鄉我們執訊的怎麼樣更多元甚至納入更多"},{"start":17764.656,"end":17786.581,"text":"可能也不只甚至不只是無人機假如有更多其他科技科技相關的技術的可能性的部分我覺得我們也可以來來多做考慮好不好謝謝部長謝謝您這樣一個態度的表示謝謝那後續就再到辦公室我們可以一起討論好我請我們的來來到吳委員辦公室好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝吳委員謝謝部長那接下來請許新英委員來做懸導"},{"start":17794.005,"end":17815.496,"text":"跟委員會報告 我們選打結束之後會休息20分鐘給各位同仁用餐 謝謝謝謝主席 本席有請洪部長來 請部長薛委員好洪部長好 您上任多久了"},{"start":17816.596,"end":17842.897,"text":"三個多月三個多月您覺得對勞動部的相關業務慢慢熟悉了嗎也必須要慢慢也必須要持續熟悉啊當然好那請教您今天在第六大項有特別提到業務報告裡面優化跨國勞動力聘僱管理制度那您知道現在很大的一個問題是什麼在這第六大項您知道嗎對不起因為報告上我"},{"start":17844.482,"end":17856.296,"text":"就是我念給你啊優化跨國勞動力聘僱管理制度您在這一個大業務的情況下你知道現在台灣存在最嚴重的問題是什麼"},{"start":17857.671,"end":17882.017,"text":"可能移工的問題移工管理的問題移工管理所以您知道現在這個目前失聯的移工人數有多少嗎最新的數據應該是9萬多對9萬多一直以來都居高不下然後又破了9萬之前8萬多就很多了那我們都束手無策嗎"},{"start":17884.684,"end":17909.425,"text":"呃 當然我們從跟 我們跟那個好 沒關係因為本席時間有限 先稍等 先稍等本席今天失聯移工問題先等一下有時間再回頭過來現在失聯移工數有90833人但這個是一個嚴重的系統問題它進一步衍生的也是我們的治安問題"},{"start":17910.566,"end":17938.493,"text":"但是我们国家的资源流失什么资源流失呢就是目前我们这些失联移工这么多然后有些移工我们要遣返要让他遣返回他的国家逃逸的移工失联移工就是逃逸移工那现在有很多移工我们要把他遣返回去他没有钱然后就用了我们的什么基金您知道吗"},{"start":17939.153,"end":17968.072,"text":"用救安基金對就業安全基金用了我們的救安基金那過去4年的這個統計呢用掉了我們2億1933萬收不回的收不回的有2億多所以剛剛這麼多的委員在那邊說哇這個被刪掉了800萬新手爸媽然後凍結了那凍結了當然是可以再解凍"},{"start":17969.533,"end":17982.842,"text":"你這個800或1000可是這麼多年來這個移工遣返的問題你把就業安定基金拿來讓這些移工離開"},{"start":17985.093,"end":18000.24,"text":"討不回來你也沒有在制度上去更新啊你也沒有去想辦法那怎麼這個錢你就這樣一直流失一直流失兩億多兩億多你在那邊糾結幾百萬幾百萬那所以本席要講的是"},{"start":18000.74,"end":18022.356,"text":"我們這不是在糾結幾百萬這是不同的這是不同的項目我們都要盡力的做好可是那我要請你我現在沒有請你回答本席要強調的是那你這個都同樣是人民的納稅錢你這邊一直流失一直流失國家資源一直流失兩億多你不痛不癢四年來沒有任何的方案"},{"start":18024.751,"end":18047.677,"text":"這個就是問題嘛 本席要講的就是貪官永遠預算嫌少嘛但是清官才會預算我完全不接受但是你該用貪官來形容我不接受把他講成貪官你不接受沒關係 執政荒誕失靈責任推給在野所以本席在這邊我們有做個更好的空間但我不接受把他講成貪官那麼多年來兩億多你們現在有什麼作為"},{"start":18053.138,"end":18067.239,"text":"有什麼作為跟委員報告目前這個部分我們當然依照應該要負擔這個費用的包括是這個移工或是部長身為部長都不知道你要他來回答本席可以告訴你"},{"start":18068.5,"end":18087.927,"text":"這個移民署也一直給你們意見那你們就一直回覆沒辦法做到沒辦法做到好那好那沒關係這位是呃我們的跟委員報告我是代理代理署長哦代理署長原則上應該要先從源頭解決移工失聯的問題啊那這個部分剛剛部長也有提到我們會從改善移工的勞動條件你不能每年"},{"start":18091.008,"end":18119.063,"text":"這樣子錢一直流失嘛那至於這個有關電付的這個對電付的錢我們目前第一個是有加強罰則包括移工如果這個沒有這個你罰他他就是沒錢嘛所以然後本席在這邊再說一個很好笑的就是所以他就是沒有錢所以呢都給他寫了說喔那我回去會還你錢的一個借據所以現在抽屜有一大堆兩億多有多少張所以本席最後因為時間到了本席建議啊"},{"start":18120.003,"end":18134.855,"text":"你為什麼不提撥呢因為移民署建議你們說要有這個保證金保證金可能會覺得剝削或者是他負擔不起沒關係那你就從他每個月每個月的薪資你一點一點提撥嘛提撥到"},{"start":18137.637,"end":18164.173,"text":"你們算得出來嗎就每一次每一個遣返回去大概要多少是一萬塊台幣還是八千塊連機票連相關你收容他的一些吃的飲食的問題你就提撥嘛你提撥到一個量你就停了嘛那也不是保證金問題你就慢慢提撥這樣可以做嗎假如說用提撥的方式如果會增加這個移工的經濟負擔的話在過往的經驗裡面可能會增加他失聯的機率"},{"start":18165.714,"end":18193.67,"text":"就一點點一點點累積所以你一個月提撥他500塊增加移工他經濟的我說這是從過往的經驗來看增加他的經濟負擔的話就過往經驗可能會增加他失聯的機率他每個月可能就賺個幾萬塊那你500塊提撥500塊一個月一個月你一年多你大概就提撥完畢所以你這個500塊你覺得就增加他失聯的這點我"},{"start":18195.191,"end":18215.087,"text":"我覺得你們要不要考慮看看但是好沒關係我們可以整體的在思考如果我們的建議你覺得不好那你拿出更好的辦法不是讓我們國家資源一直流失一直流失我們各種方法我們都願意來思考但是這確實是一個相當困難相當有挑戰的問題"},{"start":18215.908,"end":18238.824,"text":"你可以接近一下其他國家其他國家做得好的我們應該要效法我們希望能夠從源頭上面來降低失聯的可能性這當然是我們現在在各種制度上設計上面我們必須優先來考慮的事情你的源頭如果可以降低我當然大家贊成但是失聯移工人數就一直增加"},{"start":18239.624,"end":18264.091,"text":"然後每年一直累積我們的就業安定基金都拿去給這些移工遣返回去這個是事實啊委員 剛才的建議我們可以再我們這可以再做思考可不可以多久可以給本席一個回覆你們可以盡量討論兩個月給你們或三個月你總是要拿出辦法我們可以一個月給針對這些相關的做法的一些評估可以給委員好 謝謝好 謝謝徐委員"},{"start":18268.4,"end":18282.751,"text":"謝部長接下來請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英委員楊瓊英不在請鄭振成委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在柯之恩委員柯之恩委員柯之恩委員不在蔡易宇委員蔡易宇委員蔡易宇委員不在請陳委員來做詢問謝主席麻煩請部長兩位請部長"},{"start":18302.034,"end":18316.609,"text":"陳英文好部長好因為您上任以來本席有發現就是這段時間勞動部的政策好像大部分我們的觀察是左院長在對外發布的機率比較高"},{"start":18317.45,"end":18338.057,"text":"那我從來也很少就是說看到說有哪一家媒體有提到就是說部長自己對外說明這個所主政的勞動部將有這個什麼重大的這個計畫或改變例如說國定假日要增加勞退要提高那有條件的開放外籍勞工從事服務業等等"},{"start":18339.377,"end":18362.269,"text":"甚至是說像台中百貨公司氣爆事故的救援跟慰問傷患我們看到的大部分都是卓院長在指示優先照顧傷者保障勞工權益 盡速調查事故原因等等我想這些很多行政院在發布集都要說明"},{"start":18363.449,"end":18383.225,"text":"呃感覺就是說勞團跟工商團體呃對於這個勞動部的這個角色溝通的這個管道就是好像比較弱點這是有一些奇怪就感覺上有些奇怪然後那反而就是說對於在我們會比較常看到就是過去對於勞動部常有一些需要"},{"start":18385.326,"end":18403.359,"text":"這個補破網的工作 有很多的報導金句 例如說我不吃這一套啦 不用恭喜我啦 就按基金用途改革進行改革進行式等等 或者是說沒動機跟理由迴避這些金句其實大家都反而非常的耳熟能詳 這個報導是看到蠻多的那"},{"start":18407.922,"end":18434.596,"text":"再來我想要請教就是說部長接任之初喔特別卓院長有給您三個任務請教請問你還記得嗎第一個當然是處理霸凌的問題然後再來一個是處理部內的霸凌的整頓的問題然後再來包括是希望能夠提出一個完整的勞工的政策然後也希望做出一些制度的改革"},{"start":18435.333,"end":18460.534,"text":"好我想比較還原院長所用的文字就是說穩定勞動部內部同仁的情緒這個是他有講的那我想要請教就是說內部同仁情緒目前都穩定了嗎當然我們這段時間還是會有一些相關的申訴可是我們就是透過該處理的就去處理該面對就面對"},{"start":18461.87,"end":18482.093,"text":"我想這個內部同仁的情緒應該不只不單止就是之前的這個謝怡榮的事件應該還有很多可能有些被揭露有些在調查中有些是在進行中不為人知的我想這些情緒不曉得部長有沒有關注到"},{"start":18483.061,"end":18503.854,"text":"如果有相關的問題的話我想都可以提出來我想這個是很重要的第一個第一件事情部長有這樣提那再來就是要能夠健全友善合理的職場然後讓所有的勞工在安全環境中為國人效力那請問現在大家勞工們都安全了嗎"},{"start":18505.625,"end":18520.375,"text":"所以這部分我想昨天講當時的意思是就是針對我們要求治安法那針對職場霸凌的機制要來把它法制化這部分我們正在當然在進行中然後目前草案已經進入到最後的收尾的階段"},{"start":18520.635,"end":18547.427,"text":"我想這個部分大家都一直也都跟部長一直在努力第三個就是在國家發展過程中對於所有產業人民的需求要提出完整的勞工政策我想請教就是說目前部長主要你現在在推動的主要的政策是有哪些然後協助你擬定政策的這些核心人物又是哪些核心人物對"},{"start":18550.048,"end":18564.162,"text":"這當然是我現在是勞動部長當然我就是要對這些事情負責倒不是什麼核心人物不核心人物的問題那協助你這個就是說擬定決策啦就是的這些人當然部內的同仁很重要"},{"start":18564.562,"end":18583.844,"text":"就是部內的同仁的主管部內的同仁也包括我們其實相關的政策也會諮詢專家學者包括產業先包括勢勞工團體都在諮詢那我再請教部長就是您這三個月沒有築密的歲月裡有沒有好好珍惜自己"},{"start":18588.376,"end":18616.463,"text":"因為我去查過這個所有的部會很不幸的我沒有找到有任何一個部會的主任秘書一直可以懸缺三個月以上那我是很擔心啦就是說這個我倒要問問就是說勞動部你們這個內部的你們這些資深官員難道你們都不願意擔任部長的主秘嗎你們在幹什麼"},{"start":18620.151,"end":18637.267,"text":"我覺得我們這些相關重要的職缺確實我們有補了一些然後我覺得找到很不錯很適當的人選那可是也有一些持續的在找到在接觸然後在詢問中那我自己心裡也蠻急的"},{"start":18638.348,"end":18665.994,"text":"所以看起來部長蠻嚴格就是您的標準也真的很高這個是好事啦但是三個月的歲月那我們其實都很關心也特別我們過去也都是同事就是說部長是屬於這個輕壯派的部長但現在就是說以在卓內閣的這個放眼望去部長應該算是最年輕的應該是吧"},{"start":18668.618,"end":18697.879,"text":"我沒有去問因為有人已經不在了所以你已經開始最年輕了那你跟這些可以就是說在輩分上是可以作為您的這個叔叔阿姨輩的這些高階文官那高階文官常常就是高學歷又經驗豐富那部長你如何去領導管理他們然後讓他們看見說你的這個能力然後可以信任你"},{"start":18699.448,"end":18716.331,"text":"因為我們其實都是會很擔心就是說也怕你在勞動部裡面被欺負啊然後或者被蒙蔽而不自知甚至被誤導那這個就是在政策的決策上就會發生很大的問題這個是我們擔心的沒有被欺負的問題我可以很肯定的"},{"start":18717.847,"end":18736.599,"text":"好沒有這個問題這是好事因為如果有人欺負你我們也會幫忙修理他幫忙導正那但是你如果有被蒙蔽的時候我們想幫忙就未必幫得上忙了這是我才我才就是本性比較"},{"start":18737.918,"end":18749.145,"text":"真正擔心的事情我覺得我們會把這個諮詢的管道盡量的多元然後來聽大家的意見那事實上不管最後的什麼決策我都是要負責的"},{"start":18751.151,"end":18772.081,"text":"我覺得有一些決策如果錯誤了你嘴巴講說你可以負責但是影響到很多勞工的權益的時候你嘴巴講你可以負責實際上你是沒有辦法負責的我必須要在這裡做這樣提醒雖然我今天的口氣很溫和但是呢我想有些問題是瑞麗的"},{"start":18774.042,"end":18787.894,"text":"所以我做這樣子的提醒那至於哪些部分被蒙蔽我想後續我還會再跟你持續溝通因為你如果繼續被蒙蔽那院長交付你的任務你就沒有辦法完成"},{"start":18789.435,"end":18811.586,"text":"那最近來進入一個實質的問題最近這個職場霸凌的案件還是層出不窮那以最近這個台大醫院某病房的護理站的例子似乎要認定成立了那實務上非常的不容易你們自己北分署的案子也是部長自己親自召集組成有公信力的這些外部委員那最後才能通過的嗎"},{"start":18813.447,"end":18829.598,"text":"而且是在責損一位部長之後然後才被認定成立所以部長你也才有機會坐上這個位置那我要請教的是說被霸凌的受害者如果因此罹患精神疾病算不算職業災害算不算這應該算了好你講的"},{"start":18838.925,"end":18839.386,"text":"這個當然要經過專業醫學的專業認定"},{"start":18842.807,"end":18872.256,"text":"好我想是這樣啦你的回答也沒錯就是畢竟但是這10年來其實大概只有認定25件而已我提供這個數據給部長參考那再來未來即將制定的這個霸凌專章是在他是很奇妙的他是長在職安法裡面那這是不是表示就是說勞動檢查機構將負責未來的這個霸凌調查跟檢查講到這裡我先請教部長就是說調查跟檢查的差別在哪裡"},{"start":18874.48,"end":18891.287,"text":"這當然不一樣啊對阿差別在哪裡檢查是對於我們的很多的防治的做法有沒有做到位必須進行檢查那調查當然就是進入到個案上面那到底發生的事情是什麼進行調查這當然是很不一樣所以其實一個是就是事前的預防跟事後的調查當然"},{"start":18893.468,"end":18920.8,"text":"那再來我要提醒就是說某事業單位的技術長這個新聞被董事長殺害死亡那因為他在他的離職信當中有提及到就是說他在職場上是有被霸凌的狀況所以依據職安法已經進行了勞檢那過去你們的執行裡面並沒有要求就是這個勞檢介入霸凌的調查但是呢你們北分署的案子跟這個"},{"start":18921.74,"end":18935.797,"text":"新北的勞檢處也都全部介入他都介入了那這表示就是說那這個將來地方跟中央有可能是不同調的所以法令"},{"start":18936.678,"end":18961.557,"text":"要怎麼定是至關重要那不要造成說將來各縣市就各吹各的調那因為如果說這個事業單位的調查認為霸凌不成立而勞檢調查認定成立的時候部長認為怎麼辦我可以再舉一個例子就是說因為我是想問說那霸凌專章到底能不能處理這一塊因為我來舉這個例子"},{"start":18962.358,"end":18984.856,"text":"嗯 就是職安署如果就說好啦 職安署內部的某約顧的同仁被公務人員的同仁霸凌然後勞檢員就是要去調查 但是勞檢員又受雇於職安署那你們到底要怎麼處理這些狀況"},{"start":18986.621,"end":19002.05,"text":"跟委員說明剛才講到勞檢的人力他處理的比較不是直接的所謂的調查這個勞檢的部分比方說像新北市的介入他比較是去查他在職場霸凌的問題或者是不法侵害問題上面有沒有做到預防"},{"start":19003.615,"end":19030.206,"text":"那調查的部分還會有調查該有的人力所以這部分會是不太一樣的那當然接下來我們是希望如果治安法的修法有霸凌反霸凌防治專章之後這些都有相關的機制上面的規範對啊那好啦即便是調查沒有預防那你們這些勞檢員要去調查自己的這個顧用他們的人這個治安署有沒有做到預防"},{"start":19031.348,"end":19057.157,"text":"那這個這個也是另外一個一個問題啊好所以我點出來這樣問題也沒有錯嘛你就是球員兼裁判自己調查自己啊如果涉及到的是這個機構裡面的最高負責人的話當然就設計上面我們會會是希望有再有上級機關來做調查就又要就是所以這個專章新聞法也是這樣子啊就是如果"},{"start":19058.554,"end":19079.357,"text":"這個最高負責人是行為人的話那你不太能夠在這個機構只能自己負責我想今天今天我剛提出的這些問題就是一個善意的提醒因為我們畢竟現在就是我們即將要來處理制定這個霸凌專長所以我大概提出這個做以上提醒好那請你們注意謝謝"},{"start":19085.029,"end":19106.159,"text":"好 謝謝本次會議詢答全部結束那現在做一下決定第一報告及詢答完畢第二委員諮詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內已書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定那我們現在休息20分休息完之後我們再繼續開會 謝謝"},{"start":20475.375,"end":20481.742,"text":"現在繼續審查110年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算管理勞動部主管部分本次會議討論事項已於113年12月9日說明及詢答完畢"},{"start":20494.454,"end":20516.769,"text":"先做以下宣告一本市審查戶屬單位預算案以各基金為處理單位五委員提案部分預算均照列第二本會召委會議決議與審查預算提案時保留於第二輪之提案提案委員不在現場則不再處理該項提案第三"},{"start":20517.964,"end":20540.09,"text":"本次審查會有關於提案委員所提預算刪減案經委員會審查通過則除提案委員特別聲明不同意外均同意勞動部的科目自行調整第四有關於提案委員預算刪減或凍結案部分勞動部與各提案委員溝通結果如提案委員同意併案刪減或凍結則請勞動部"},{"start":20543.345,"end":20560.704,"text":"於本次戶屬單位預算全部審查完畢前將各同意並按刪減或凍結之提案案號及科目匯整後送主席台宣告後通過第五 商事委員提案凍結之預算除特別聲明不同意者外"},{"start":20561.484,"end":20583.625,"text":"文字均統一為須向立法院生物福利基於衛生環境委員會提出書面報告並經同意後使得動之第六 在本會審查中如提案委員口頭同意修正凍結案及主決議部分文字者請勞動部盡速與提案委員溝通後將書面修正文字送至主席台"},{"start":20584.656,"end":20596.431,"text":"我們現在開始審查請醫生員宣讀勞動部主管附屬單位預算之科目兼額及委員提案我們預計2點半開始進行實質的審查"},{"start":20601.813,"end":20616.027,"text":"114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算勞動部主管甲非營業部分依作業基金勞工保險局作業基金業務計劃因依據業務收支轉投資固定資產建設改良擴充及資金運用等項之審查結果隨同調整"},{"start":20618.629,"end":20643.789,"text":"業務總收入7435億7382萬2千元業務總支出同業務總收入本期剩餘0元 減少工庫金額無劣數轉投資計畫無劣數固定資產建設改良擴充無劣數國庫增撥基金額無劣數二 特別收入基金就業安定基金業務計畫因依據基金來源與用途審查結果隨同調整基金來源298億零182萬元"},{"start":20646.611,"end":20650.694,"text":"基金用途273億3682萬6千元本期剩餘24億6499萬4千元結繳公庫無劣數以信託基金部分依勞工退休基金救治基金運用計劃因依據收支漁畜撥補等向之審查結果隨同調整總收入314億7986萬4千元總支出34億5324萬2千元本期剩餘281億2662萬"},{"start":20677.797,"end":20684.585,"text":"2.勞工退休基金新制基金運用計畫與就職同總收入1644億8477萬5千元總支出1億8940萬1千元本期剩餘1642億9537萬4千元3.基建公司電廠基金"},{"start":20696.059,"end":20702.223,"text":"基金運用計畫與勞工退休基金同總收入12億7465萬2千元總支出5億5696萬元本期剩餘7億1769萬2千元繼續宣讀委員提案"},{"start":20712.269,"end":20738.145,"text":"議制六案為勞工保險局作業基金一委員陳清暉廖偉翔陳昭芝提案業務成本與費用減列二十分之一凍結二十分之三二委員王玉明等人提案保險成本凍結五千萬元三委員王玉明等人提案雜項業務成本災保及保護媒體政策及業務宣導費減列二百萬元四委員陳瑩等人提案柯木桐第三案減列二百萬元"},{"start":20739.005,"end":20763.668,"text":"五六案為委員蘇清泉圖全及邱振軍提案五職業傷病服務凍結十分之一六職業災害勞工重建凍結十分之一七至第100案為就業安定基金七委員蘇清泉等人提案基金用途凍結二十分之三八至11案科目為媒體政策及業務宣導費八委員蘇清泉翁曉林等人提案"},{"start":20764.388,"end":20790.009,"text":"簡列一億三千二百零七萬四千元 凍結一千萬元九 委員廖偉祥等人提案 簡列一億元十 委員邱振軍廖偉祥盧憲一提案 簡列十分之三 凍結一千萬元十一 委員蘇清泉等人提案 簡列十分之一 凍結十分之一十二 委員蘇清泉等人提案 一 促進國民就業計畫二 提升勞工福祉計畫 簡列十分之一 凍結十分之三"},{"start":20791.693,"end":20814.774,"text":"十三至十六案科目為促進國民就業計劃十三委員陳英等人提案減列一千萬元十四委員圖存基等人提案凍結一億元十五及十六案委委員林玉琴等人提案各凍結五百萬元十七委員蘇清泉等人提案促進國民就業計劃水電費減列三百九十萬元十八委員陳昭志等人提案"},{"start":20815.214,"end":20827.14,"text":"促進國民就業計劃修理保養及保固費減列8,465萬元凍結五分之一19委員陳昭芝等人提案科目同時發案凍結五分之一20至24案科目為促進國民就業計劃"},{"start":20830.362,"end":20848.468,"text":"媒體政策及業務宣導費二十委員陳昭芝等人提案減列四千七百零三萬六千元二一委員王玉明等人提案減列四千萬元凍結四千萬元二十二委員陳金輝廖偉翔陳昭芝提案減列五分之一二十三委員蘇清泉等人提案"},{"start":20849.168,"end":20867.977,"text":"簡列二十分之三凍結五分之一二十四委員陳昭芝等人提案凍結二分之一二十五至二十八案委委員陳昭芝等人提案二十五促進國民就業計劃推展費簡列三千四百六十九萬七千元二十六科目同二十五萬凍結二分之一二十七構建固定資產資產"},{"start":20869.338,"end":20891.667,"text":"無形資產非理財目的之長期投資及營設與設施工程支出減列二一一千七百九十四萬七千元二十八柯木同二十七案凍結二分之一二十九委員林淑芬等人提案促進國民就業計劃捐助補助與獎助凍結二十分之一三十委員廖偉翔等人提案職業訓練業務媒體政策及業務宣導費減列三百萬元三十一委員邱戰軍蘇清泉圖全集提案"},{"start":20898.21,"end":20920.678,"text":"补助办理照顾服务员职业训练冻结一千万元三二委员苏清泉图权及邱振军提案办理青年职能开发业务冻结二十分之三三十三委员邱振军苏清泉图权及提案科目同三十二案冻结五百万元三十四委员王振旭杨耀林月琴提案科目同三十二案冻结一百万元"},{"start":20921.298,"end":20935.475,"text":"三十五委員邱戰軍蘇清泉圖全集提案特定對象及弱勢者就業業務凍結五百萬元三十六委員楊耀等人提案促進特定對象及弱勢者等就業服務檢列五百萬元凍結五百萬元"},{"start":20937.077,"end":20953.744,"text":"三十七委員蘇清泉等人提案柯木桐三十六案凍結十分之一三十八委員盧憲義等人提案柯木桐三十六案救案項目凍結十分之一三十九委員陳金輝廖偉翔陳昭資提案柯木桐三十八案凍結十分之一"},{"start":20955.988,"end":20971.768,"text":"40.委员苏清泉图权及邱振军提案,补助地方政府设立营法人才服务据点冻结十分之一。41.委员邱振军苏清泉图权及提案,科目同事实案冻结一千万元。42.委员苏清泉图权及邱振军提案。"},{"start":20972.515,"end":20980.284,"text":"辦理特定對象就業促進津貼及相關僱用獎助津貼凍結十分之一 四十三委員廖偉祥等人提案就業服務業務媒體政策及業務宣導費減列三百萬元 四十四委員楊耀等人提案"},{"start":20987.672,"end":20996.038,"text":"辦理僱用及就業獎助業務 檢列500萬元 凍結500萬元45 委員劉建國等人提案柯木同44案 檢列100萬元 凍結200萬元46 委員蘇清泉等人提案柯木同44案 凍結10分之147 委員陳金輝 廖偉祥 陳昭芝提案柯木同44案救安項目 凍結5分之148 委員邱振軍 蘇清泉圖權及提案"},{"start":21013.671,"end":21018.215,"text":"專案缺工就業獎勵凍結100萬元49委員楊耀等人提案辦理防治就業歧視業務檢列50萬元凍結50萬元50委員劉建國等人提案台灣就業通往時服務檢列100萬元凍結200萬元51委員楊耀等人提案青年就業服務"},{"start":21033.827,"end":21041.633,"text":"簡列一百萬元凍結一百萬元五十二委員廖偉祥等人提案職能標準及技能檢定與競賽業務媒體政策及業務宣導費簡列三百萬元五十三至五十四位委員陳金輝廖偉祥陳昭芝提案"},{"start":21049.119,"end":21073.315,"text":"五十三參加國際技能組織賽事暨交流訪問凍結五分之一五十四柯木桐五十三案凍結十分之一五十五委員蘇清泉等人提案辦理亞洲技能競賽相關業務簡列五分之一凍結二分之一五十六委員邱振軍廖偉祥盧憲一提案柯木桐五十五案凍結二千萬元五十七委員邱振軍蘇清泉圖權及提案"},{"start":21073.795,"end":21080.456,"text":"推動職能基準發展與應用 凍結五百萬元五十八委員楊耀等人提案微型創業鳳凰貸款利息補貼及創業協助減劣五百萬元 凍結五百萬元五十九委員劉建國等人提案柯木桐五十八案凍結一百萬元六十委員楊耀等人提案強化勞動力發展創新效能減劣五百萬元 凍結五百萬元六十一委員邱戰軍蘇清泉圖權及提案"},{"start":21101.44,"end":21123.367,"text":"改善职场工作环境业务绿能产业作业安全促进计划全数简列62委员林淑芬等人提案科目同61案冻结二分之一63委员陈英等人提案参访绿能产业先进国家相关机构推动国际交流合作并发展作业安全规范全数简列64至69案科目为"},{"start":21125.348,"end":21153.205,"text":"外國人聘務管理及許可計劃64 委員蘇清泉等人提案 簡列十分之一 凍結十分之三65 委員陳瑩等人提案 簡列十分之一 凍結十分之一66 委員陳瑩等人提案 簡列一億元67 委員蘇清泉圖權及邱政軍提案 凍結十分之一68 委員圖權基等人提案 凍結五千萬元69 委員邱政軍蘇清泉圖權及提案 凍結一千萬元"},{"start":21155.705,"end":21163.967,"text":"70委員林淑芬等人提案外國人聘僱管理及許可計劃服務費用凍結二十分之一71委員蘇清泉等人提案外國人聘僱管理及許可計劃媒體政策及業務宣導費減列五分之一凍結十分之一72委員王玉明等人提案柯木桐七十一案減列五百萬元73委員陳昭芝等人提案柯木桐七十一案凍結二分之一74委員陳昭芝等人提案"},{"start":21183.05,"end":21199.559,"text":"外国人聘雇管理及许可计划推展费冻结二分之一75 委员王振旭杨耀林月琴提案外国人聘雇管理业务冻结100万元76 委员廖伟祥等人提案外国人聘雇管理业务媒体政策及业务宣导费减列600万元"},{"start":21200.559,"end":21216.725,"text":"七十七委員王玉敏等人提案辦理外國人跨部會協調事項等相關業務凍結一千萬元七十八委員陳盈等人提案辦理外國人聘僱管理及權益保障等相關事項簡列八百九十一萬元七十九委員楊耀等人提案"},{"start":21217.405,"end":21244.403,"text":"補助各地方政府辦理外國人管理等相關計劃減列五百萬元凍結五百萬元八十委員劉建國等人提案柯木同七十九案凍結二百萬元八十一委員陳金輝廖偉翔陳昭資提案辦理外國人聘僱許可業務等相關事項凍結五分之一八十二委員楊耀等人提案辦理就業安定費及外國人收容費收繳等相關事項減列五百萬元凍結五百萬元"},{"start":21246.485,"end":21267.365,"text":"83 委員王玉明等人提案提升勞工扶植計劃凍結五千萬元84 委員陳昭芝等人提案提升勞工扶植計劃匯費捐助補助分攤照護救濟與交流活動費減列五億三千二百八十六萬九千元85 委員林月琴等人提案勞動扶植退休業務凍結五百萬元86 委員劉建國等人提案"},{"start":21270.928,"end":21293.718,"text":"辅导及推动工作与生活平衡救保项目减列200万元87委员图全集等人提案劳动关系业务冻结50万元88委员图全集等人提案科目同87案冻结50万元89委员王振旭陈培宇等人提案营造劳工有力结社环境落实劳动教育计划冻结100万元"},{"start":21294.258,"end":21305.561,"text":"九十委員陳瑩等人提案勞動條件及就業平等業務檢列十分之一九十一委員圖全基等人提案柯木桐九十案凍結一百萬元九十二委員楊耀等人提案補助辦理職場性騷擾防治業務檢列五百萬元凍結五百萬元九十三委員邱振軍蘇清泉圖全基提案"},{"start":21315.423,"end":21319.989,"text":"勞工權益輔助計劃凍結100萬元94委員王玉明等人提案一般行政管理計劃服務費用凍結5000萬元95委員蘇清泉等人提案柯木桐94案向下水電費減列65萬元96委員邱振軍廖偉祥如現役提案"},{"start":21333.727,"end":21336.349,"text":"秘書業務辦理基金業務所需行政管理服務減列五千萬元凍結一千萬元97委員劉建國等人提案一般建築及設備計劃秘書業務設置基金業務所需辦公設備減列十萬元98委員蘇清泉等人提案主決議"},{"start":21352.818,"end":21380.502,"text":"99 委員陳瑩等人提案主決議100 委員林月琴等人提案主決議101 委員蘇清泉等人提案勞工退休基金救濟投資業務成本水電費減列10萬元宣讀完畢好謝謝現在開始進行主要討論主要討論藉由委員提案101案那每案先請行政單位做說明接著再請委員表示意見那現在進行第一案請行政單位說明"},{"start":21382.133,"end":21404.764,"text":"報告召委員跟委員 第一案是曾經委員關心我們玉房成員中心的輔助督導的業務那跟委員報告這個案子我們也跟委員辦公室做說明跟相關事情的釐清那委員辦公室已經同意改動雜項業務改動的項目是其他業務成本向下 災保及保護雜項業務成本100萬元謝謝委員給我們的指導跟支持 謝謝是 已經談好了"},{"start":21410.347,"end":21429.861,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員那第一案我們就照這個署長剛剛的說明這樣來通過了好 謝謝好 那請第二案第二案部分的話謝謝王委員這部分主要關心是勞保財務問題那經過跟委員溝通委員已經簽署同意改成組決議"},{"start":21431.172,"end":21456.598,"text":"好 謝謝王委員 那我們改成主席的通過 第三案第三案是我們王議員跟我們的指導 這會針對我們這個勞保作業基金下面的我關我們職災勞工的相關議題的拍片 宣導廣宣等的議題委員是特別給我們指教要我們叫慎用跟使用所以委員有同意說我們併事案併案併三五十併動五十萬已簽署 謝謝委員跟我們指導 謝謝"},{"start":21457.534,"end":21476.044,"text":"好這案我稍微說明一下因為就是之前有發現這個在每宣費用這個勞動部這邊有一些浪費跟不當使用的情況所以我這邊特別會針對每宣費用就會提出煽動那原則上如果是在業務"},{"start":21477.245,"end":21497.161,"text":"本身應該對勞工宣傳的這個我一定支持但是其實這當中有一些尊潔的空間然後有一些就是你們包括在拍片的這個費用如果是太高便利太高或者是說這當中有一些浪費的情況那我希望提出來這樣的一個案子本來是3減200那現在同意是併刪50萬併動50萬那就是希望說這個"},{"start":21503.606,"end":21530.112,"text":"勞動部要遵截這些開銷然後把錢用在刀口上謝謝委員 感謝委員好 謝謝王委員那就是第三案 第四案就是併案嘛改三五十 改動五十好 這樣通過 繼續第五案第五案 指安署是蘇縣委員的的那個提案 以跟委員幫助溝通同意已經改組決議 已經簽署了好 謝謝蘇召委那我們就改為組決議 第五案通過 繼續第二案"},{"start":21532.13,"end":21552.231,"text":"第二案是蘇委員的也是經過拜會同意改組決議已簽署好謝謝蘇召偉我們改為組決議通過第七案第七案謝謝蘇委員這個案子同意改為凍結促進國民就業計畫兩千萬元已簽署好就"},{"start":21553.427,"end":21576.972,"text":"改動兩千萬嘛好謝謝蘇昭偉改動兩千萬好繼續第八案第八案是翁曉琳委員的提案這個關切我們的沒宣費的一個編列的這個上漲的一個情形那這個部分還在爭取跟委員溝通好那請楊委員要來做補充說明你要替翁委員表達意見是不是"},{"start":21580.228,"end":21609.074,"text":"謝謝趙偉我還怕你不讓我發言我是這樣講因為這個案是救安基金的第一案那我自己的案子是全部都已經都已經跟你們解散好了不過我原本有一個案子後來我把它撤掉了也在這裡一併跟跟你們做個說明就是說救安基"},{"start":21610.185,"end":21634.525,"text":"救安基金的收支保管以及應用辦法我希望你們能夠修一下為什麼呢 因為救安基金大概負責外勞的管理然後職業訓練跟就業服務它本身的基金存在的目的其實是固定的目標非常明確"},{"start":21635.714,"end":21654.968,"text":"那你們的辦法裡面多了一個辦理提升勞工福祉事項這麼籠統的模糊的概念很容易出問題很容易出問題我希望你們回去可以可以做個討論檢討檢討然後修正部長"},{"start":21660.868,"end":21676.577,"text":"那个跟各位说明我们基本上是有预计要来修这个救安基金的收支收支运用办法了好那但是因为刚刚那个委员讲的这个项目提升劳工福祉其实他是在我们的魔法里面其实是有这样子的"},{"start":21677.237,"end":21699.069,"text":"的項目的但是我們打算考慮修的是把那個其中的第12項第5條的第12項其他的部分我們會直接把它刪除有其他的我原本有在想可是我想這裡其他的有關支出應該就是行政費用等等的但我們會把行政費用更清楚的框定然後把其他因為過去大家比較詬病的是感覺其他的範圍非常大"},{"start":21699.809,"end":21719.521,"text":"我們會把這個其他直接刪除這個我這邊資料有不過我還是覺得有關辦理提升勞工福祉事項你們還是要再規定的更明確一點因為這個太籠統了比較容易出問題啦事實上也已經出過不少問題了啦"},{"start":21720.521,"end":21749.265,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分現在就在我們的一個修正的一個方案裡面我們打算把促進國民就業它裡面本來就有包括職業訓練就業服務技能競賽技能檢定等等既然能夠分列那所以提升勞工福祉它也可以把它分列出來幾個比較具體的一個計畫的一個內涵這個部分我們會來修訂這個部分我們會一起來處理就是盡量具體化啦太模糊的東西很容易出問題好不好是謝謝委員好謝謝召委"},{"start":21750.245,"end":21770.379,"text":"好 謝謝楊委員專案 專業的提醒齁好 但是這個提案委員不在現場蘇 蘇 蘇委員 蘇召緯剛剛不是還在好 講電話好 那我們就先保留啦 抱歉來那繼續第九案跟第十案 第十案應該是相同嘛對不對"},{"start":21771.394,"end":21796.663,"text":"跟這個部分第九案謝謝那個廖偉強委員這邊同意併案凍結服務費用媒體政策及業務宣導費凍結一千萬元已簽署是然後第十案你是一樣嗎第十案邱委員這邊已經同意併案他是簡列簡列就業安定基金服務費用媒體政策及業務宣導費一千萬元已簽署"},{"start":21802.048,"end":21811.273,"text":"好第十一案蘇清泉委員同意並按刪減促進國民就業計劃服務費用媒體政策及業務宣導費1000萬元已簽署所以你公立"},{"start":21816.124,"end":21842.42,"text":"意思是第九案是動一千 第九案是動一千是 第十案 第十一案是併案然後這個三減一千對不對 第十案的話他是就業安定基金的服務費用所以他是減劣第十案也是減劣 對那第十一案呢則是在促進國民就業的服務費用這邊去做這個三減 減劣所以兩個不一樣"},{"start":21847.102,"end":21869.936,"text":"所以第九是動第十是減然後是媒體的政策業務的這個部分去減是那第十一則是在促進國民就業在下一層來做這個簡略科目別的差別我知道啊但是你是你是在下一個嗎下一個對啊"},{"start":21877.475,"end":21895.61,"text":"9跟10跟11是三個不一樣的沒有辦法並好沒關係那第九就是你們同意就動一千嘛那第九案就照這樣來通過然後第十案就是檢列一千你們也同意嘛就照這樣通過那第十案也是檢列一千"},{"start":21896.678,"end":21921.168,"text":"促進國民就業 我知道這邊有寫就就減一千是那你們同意是好那我們就照這樣通過好繼續第12案第12案我們蘇慶文委員這邊同意並按凍結兩百萬並且修正凍結科目為促進特定對象及弱勢者等就業服務就案已簽署他一直不在他要不要進來一下"},{"start":21925.62,"end":21935.449,"text":"第十二案那謝謝蘇委員這邊同意第十二案是併案凍結兩百萬修正凍結科目為促進特定對象及弱勢者等就業服務就案已簽署"},{"start":21950.347,"end":21978.893,"text":"十一案剛剛是照你的意見啦就檢列一千萬嘛齁十二案就是凍結兩百萬嘛對不對好剛剛有一個第八案第八案當然是那個翁委員的案子啦齁因為剛好出去講電話是不是這邊你可以這個是翁委員的案子啦那那個勞動部這邊是希望說同意併案科目進行調整然後檢列一千萬是不是這樣是你們同意這樣嗎齁"},{"start":21980.097,"end":22000.208,"text":"是不是可以請委員支持因為溫委員這個檢列的金額到一億三千萬不要啦不要啦這個檢列一億三千萬我們幾乎這個相關的都沒有辦法做了所以我們希望能夠並案檢列這樣子蘇昭偉要處理了啦蘇昭偉絕對是英明的他不會這樣啦"},{"start":22001.041,"end":22023.806,"text":"剪裂一千萬 同意併案 科目自行調整那第八案就是剪裂一千萬併案並在科目自行調整好那我們就照這樣通過那接下來第十二案第十三案"},{"start":22025.407,"end":22051.446,"text":"啊 對不起 第十三案 抱歉 第十三案謝謝陳議委員這邊 我們同意改三減一百萬元並且科目調整為促進國民就業計畫身心障礙者及特定對象就業訓練業務特定對象及弱勢者就業業務已簽署好 那我們就照這樣來通過好 接續第十四案第十四案 謝謝圖權及委員這個案子同意併案凍結兩千萬元已簽署"},{"start":22055.302,"end":22073.576,"text":"好 那突然不在現場就照這樣嘛 照這樣通過好 要給他簽名啦是 已經了 謝謝來 接續第15案第15案 我們林月琴委員已經同意併第14案凍結2000萬元已簽署好 那就照這樣通過15併14 來 再來第16案第16案 謝謝林月琴委員同意併第14 15案併案凍結2000萬元已簽署"},{"start":22082.728,"end":22091.553,"text":"好所以16案也是併14案14 15對14 15那我們就照這樣通過第17案第17案謝謝蘇慶璇委員同意改組決議已簽署好謝謝我們蘇昭瑋同意改組決議那我們就照這樣通過第18案第18案謝謝陳昭芝委員同意併案刪減328萬8千元已簽署"},{"start":22107.83,"end":22115.556,"text":"好那麼謝謝陳昭之委員那我們就這樣改列併案減列328萬8千來通過好繼續第19案也是謝謝陳委員這邊同意併第18案併案3減328萬8千元已簽署好19案併18案結果一樣就這樣通過繼續第20案"},{"start":22129.858,"end":22144.024,"text":"第20案也謝謝陳委員這邊同意併第10案簡列就業安定基金服務費用媒體政策及業務宣導費1000萬元已簽署好20案併10案第10案對第8案也可以併剛剛通過了對啊不一樣嘛好就併案通過好繼續第21案"},{"start":22154.861,"end":22157.282,"text":"第21案謝謝王衛銘委員這邊同意並第11案並案針對服務費用媒體政策及業務宣導有看到3減1000萬元"},{"start":22173.512,"end":22199.025,"text":"對 這一案我也要特別再講一下我剛剛也講過因為之前就業安定基金竟然拿去舉辦演唱會那這個部分我想這個全國民眾都非常的關注所以你可以看到這一次這個就業安定基金裡面有非常多委員都是針對媒體政策跟業務宣導這邊其實原本要煽動的預算比例都是蠻高的"},{"start":22199.625,"end":22213.685,"text":"那這個其實就是透過立法院大家想要強力的來監督避免這樣濫用那現在是勞動部你們有提出新的這樣的一個監督的一個做法我早上也在質詢"},{"start":22215.027,"end":22243.069,"text":"我希望不只是策進作為更應該把這些相關的你策進作為然後相關符合法令的應該要落實的應該還是要明文化就是制度化那這樣才可以避免未來就是這樣的情況在發生所以這個部分我想未來我們還是會持續監督但是因為你們已經有提出新的策進作為所以那個三減的金額就下降這樣子所以我同意就是三減一千萬"},{"start":22244.531,"end":22250.029,"text":"謝謝王委員好謝謝王委員就是二一案並十一案檢列一千萬通過繼續二十二案"},{"start":22250.66,"end":22278.717,"text":"第十二案陳軍委員所關切的也是我們媒體政策業務宣導費的部分有大幅增加的情形那尤其又有救安基金在經費之用上是不是有應該要回歸公務預算編列的運用的一個狀況那經過我們溝通說明之後呢這個委員同意並第十一案第二十一案並案三減促進國民救濟計畫服務費用媒體政策及業務宣導費一千萬元已簽署好謝謝那周委員"},{"start":22279.488,"end":22293.637,"text":"我這邊 蘇委員你是檢列多少檢列一千萬一千萬二十二檢列一千"},{"start":22297.781,"end":22315.007,"text":"這邊我補充一下因為這個審計部的報告講到說勞動部近年來多次以開口契約來辦理這些沒宣的採購啊等等行銷案所以這次你們大幅的增加4000多萬那人民當然覺得必須要嚴格的監督"},{"start":22315.647,"end":22326.015,"text":"並且是限制型的招標只有取三家廠商標從2022年到2024年看都是民視年代還有三立得標金額介於3500萬至4200萬之間這個未來您的這個分配我們都會嚴格再審視好嗎"},{"start":22340.015,"end":22348.621,"text":"我可以簡單說明因為大家很多關心開口契約的問題其實我到部裡面以後在12月的時候我們就對開口契約的適用做出了檢討"},{"start":22349.85,"end":22371.95,"text":"所以接下來比方說一些活動或者是影片我們盡量的因為過去其實出問題的部分就是把這個活動跟影片用在開口契約裡面所以其實當時我就其實把這相關的標案做了檢討未來其實這些活動或者是影片我們盡量的不用開口契約的方式來去進行該用採購法供"},{"start":22373.611,"end":22383.177,"text":"招標我們就用採購法招標而不用公開開口契約所以我們對於公開契約的適用範圍做出了一些相關的限制那這部分其實已經正在做了"},{"start":22384.957,"end":22409.385,"text":"好所以最後結論是服務費用媒體政策機業務宣導費減列一千萬對好那就併案吧併第十一第二十一案對好那我們就照這樣通過是第二十三案第二十三案謝謝蘇星泉委員同意併第十一二十一二十二案併案三減一千萬元已簽署"},{"start":22411.385,"end":22436.857,"text":"好謝謝蘇昭偉我們就照這樣通過第24案第24案謝謝陳昭之委員同意並第10案第20案並案簡列就案訂基金服務費用媒體政策及業務宣導費1000萬元已簽署好謝謝陳委員我們就照這樣通過第25案第25案陳昭之委員這邊謝謝同意並案刪減服務費用推展費300萬元已簽署好"},{"start":22442.6,"end":22458.317,"text":"那我們就照這樣通過第26案第26案陳委員這邊同意並前案第25案併案刪減服務費用推展費300萬元已簽署謝謝好那就照這樣通過第27案第27案也謝謝陳委員這邊同意併案刪減300萬元已簽署"},{"start":22463.683,"end":22472.206,"text":"好 一樣謝謝陳委員 接下來 照這樣通過第28案 陳昭智委員這邊同意並第27案 併案3減300萬元已簽署好 謝謝陳昭智委員的同意 已經跟他謝謝4次了好 就照這樣通過 接下來第29案"},{"start":22482.35,"end":22501.293,"text":"第29案是我們林淑芬委員關切的是我們救安基金編列了技能競賽跟國際技能交流的預算達了12億那這12億包括國內的技能競賽跟國際技能賽事等等這個部分的支用是否符合基金的用途在法定的業務範圍之內阿根委員報告的是"},{"start":22501.693,"end":22528.421,"text":"因為不管是從職業訓練法或者是從救安基金收支保管運用辦法這裡面都有把機能競賽這個部分納入我們的這個職業訓練跟救安基金的支用的一個用途範圍之內那相關的一個經費呢我們都盡量依照我們這個以往的執行的經驗跟相關的一個規模的情況之下來做這個編列我們也會遵截預算來做處理是不是懇請委員能夠同意我們是不是可以改組決議"},{"start":22530.302,"end":22550.378,"text":"好我來問一下請問在座的所有的委員 立委你聽過我們勞發署或勞動部辦理過的分區技能競賽或全國技能競賽的比賽項目有誰知道主席你知道嗎"},{"start":22556.087,"end":22577.084,"text":"人家花那麼多錢一個四億多一個七億多每年都花十幾億那他們辦的這個技能比賽是比賽什麼你們有誰知道欸 這裡面宣傳費很多欸你們知道嗎 所以經紀委員你知道嗎你覺得聽得懂嗎主席你有聽得懂嗎你知道喔 要比賽什麼紅包你也說給我們聽一下"},{"start":22594.517,"end":22594.978,"text":"阿龍在哪裡比賽你知道嗎"},{"start":22605.319,"end":22610.8,"text":"現在就是說我們署長講的是是我知道可是就是說看這個裡面的細目預算編列的宣傳費用還不少那還有分組比賽那最後總決賽就在南港展覽館南港展覽館光是場地租金就有五千萬然後那設備要比賽那設備搬來搬去就要花一億多"},{"start":22634.448,"end":22642.414,"text":"那至於選手獎勵金我們裁判費這個我們就不討論了那這個裡面還包括今年要辦的一個亞洲技能競賽亞洲技能競賽的媒體宣傳費高達6000萬左右"},{"start":22648.405,"end":22650.609,"text":"那他們預期的參加的是28國超過1000人但是我一直說作為一個立委好像社會的能見度對這個比賽的曝光度太低了但是文宣費用是變得很高"},{"start":22663.077,"end":22680.407,"text":"那我们是希望你真的要做好当然我现在看起来比赛什么东西这可能对职训职业学校职业学校可能比较他们比较了解工业机械机械设计组CNCC洗床车床等等看起来好像是方向是对的也可以的"},{"start":22686.71,"end":22703.725,"text":"但索費不至那必要我們也是支持但是現在看了就是說文宣媒體費用花那麼多可是我想對全台灣的人來講好像完全所知知道這個資訊的人太少了啦連主席都不老實說我也不是很清楚"},{"start":22704.105,"end":22727.121,"text":"跟林委員說明其實因為確實這幾年勞動部在投入在這個競爭競賽你們宣傳費用偏不少但能見度很低但是主要是確實是針對這些職校的同學其實在做宣傳所以這幾年下來這些職校的同學他們其實在實務上面其實投入的意願跟他其實那個自信感其實榮譽感是增加很多的"},{"start":22727.381,"end":22754.782,"text":"好啦我知道我不反對這個事情啦但是就是說這個錢花的恰不恰當文宣費用編列了光是亞洲的比賽就五億多五億多裡面宣傳費就編了六千多萬超過一成都是在做文宣可是事實上我們真的沒有感受啦老實說所以這個付費是不是應該再更尊潔就是這樣子是不是請委員支持我這部分我憑尊潔的原則來辦理"},{"start":22756.945,"end":22770.364,"text":"這個文宣宣傳費用怎麼處理你就二十分之一看料就改為是不是"},{"start":22771.667,"end":22799.746,"text":"是 這個我是真的知道的啦連那個機器人比賽都有啦蘇昭也不知道 我知道啦場地租金這麼貴都要五千多萬喔一個場地租金比賽幾天南港展覽館這麼貴喔幾天加上錢五天好 那我對媒體宣傳費用比較有感啦老實說其他無所謂啦該給的就給啦 該花的就花啦"},{"start":22800.91,"end":22827.915,"text":"但宣傳要有效果沒有效果的宣傳如果大家職校大家都知道的話事實上只是宣傳給職校的學生看的話應該好像也不用花這麼多宣傳費超過一成的確也太多了那我們可以因為剛剛有說宣傳費是五千萬我想我們會應該有權利知道說五千萬到底這個宣傳費用是怎麼的"},{"start":22829.952,"end":22855.985,"text":"支出的方式因為畢竟蠻多的這麼大的一筆錢這個比我們之前在說救安基金辦演唱會爛拍廣告那個錢還要多主要是我們因為這些活動他的舉辦的前跟後呢我們希望說能夠透過包括平面媒體跟網路媒體電視媒體等等去做這個訊息的一個揭露這個部分的費用會是最高的佔了一半左右"},{"start":22856.485,"end":22883.863,"text":"主要是採購通路去做這樣這個訊息的曝光另外就是我們在將近50個職類這樣子的一個規模每一個職類我們都希望能夠拍一個解說的一個影片那這個解說的影片可以讓不同的系科的高職生跟參賽的這些學生他們可以知道說每一個職類我們所關注的競賽的焦點跟他們的一個功夫會是在哪邊那這個部分的一個影片的一個拍攝剪輯而且要做成四國語言"},{"start":22884.944,"end":22913.192,"text":"這個部分又會有1000萬的一個經費上的一個需求那除此之外還有本身整個國際賽這個亞洲賽的一個形象的一個廣告那這個跟我們這個亞洲技能組織這邊要有一些合作這裡面會有形象廣告的一個影片的拍攝那還有在整個執行前後前中後過程當中的一些網路行銷活動的一個宣傳等等這個也會有數百萬的一個規模所以這裡面整個詳細的內容我們其實可以再提供給委員這邊來做參考"},{"start":22918.144,"end":22943.565,"text":"亞洲賽事三十年來第一次辦沒有 因為那個是要提前兩三年去跟亞洲競爭組織去做申請那我是在三年前知道這件事情申請的 好啦那我是個人是覺得如果是第一次申請然後要舉辦亞洲賽事那我想六千就六千吧"},{"start":22944.178,"end":22969.671,"text":"好啦 第一次就給人家了好不好OK 報告 因為我們之後因為你說要拍這麼多支國際宣傳的影片然後翻成四國語言之後我們也會去看您的點閱數啊因為之前你們在高雄拍的那個演唱會是慘不聞毒是 這個部分我們主要都是製作的一個費用那這個部分我會特別留意在後續的一個曝光盡量讓它可以被大家可以看得到"},{"start":22970.659,"end":22975.017,"text":"我知道製作費用貴可是製作費用也要貴的有價值嘛是對"},{"start":22977.418,"end":23000.848,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員的提醒齁好 我們第29案齁就剛剛講的 就是我們台灣第四辦嘛 對不對對嘛 第四辦 第四辦理委員也願意同意給他通過嘛那些人不曉得在笑什麼齁 請部長要小心一下好 29案就不動不散照這樣通過是主決議 主決議 主決議要改主決議那個 理委要改主決議還是要撤案"},{"start":23009.438,"end":23030.673,"text":"對啊好那就改為主決議好不好請趕快把主席送到主席台來好繼續第30案第30案我們廖偉祥委員這邊同意謝謝委員這邊同意改併案併第9案改成凍結就業安定基金服務費用媒體政策及業務宣導費300萬元已簽署"},{"start":23033.052,"end":23044.829,"text":"好 順順就變通過第31案第31案我們邱振軍委員這邊同意並按凍結運用多元培訓模式辦理失業者及特定對象職業訓練100萬元已簽署"},{"start":23047.725,"end":23064.202,"text":"好 第三十三案就照並案通過第三十二案第三十二案謝謝蘇清泉蘇委員同意改成主決議已簽署好 謝謝蘇召委改為主決議通過第三十三案第三十三案邱振軍委員這邊同意改為主決議已簽署"},{"start":23065.779,"end":23093.465,"text":"好 謝謝卿委員 改為主決議通過第三次案第三次案也謝謝王正旭委員同意改為主決議已簽署好 請王委員謝謝主席讓我機會來針對這個問題再做確認我同意改成主決議也謝謝今天部長有告訴我們說目前113年的失業率是3.38%那也比去年降了0.1%看起來都非常美好"},{"start":23094.105,"end":23119.881,"text":"那我今天中午去跟南非的這個國會議員他們來參訪他們說他們國家目前的失業率是超過40%他們非常羨慕我們在台灣的這個都有這麼好的這個失業率的控制所以他很希望跟台灣有更多的交流不過我們擔心的是在112年的資料告訴我們說15歲到29歲的青年的失業率是8%"},{"start":23121.842,"end":23139.767,"text":"似乎是有超過一半的這個一半一倍左右的這個嘛所以這一方面可能應該要如何來讓這個青年的職能開發的業務可以更為全面這部分就是希望能夠要持續來努力的地方是 謝謝"},{"start":23142.26,"end":23156.249,"text":"謝謝王委員指教但因為這幾年是因為經濟狀況比較好所以其實失業率比較低可是我們也不會以這個失業率的數字來自滿其實我們當然在檢視我們有很多就業輔助跟就業"},{"start":23157.49,"end":23180.165,"text":"辅导相关的工作都还有一些精进的空间那尤其针对年轻人部分那我们也特别在意其实行政院也特别在意这个部分所以我们还是会即便这个数字看起来不高可是我们还是会愿意来做一个更大程度的精进尤其是我们看到这几年年轻人的就业的形态其实确实有些不一样的部分那我们怎么政策可以接轨上这部分我们会很关心这件事情好"},{"start":23181.906,"end":23206.108,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝王委員第三十四案就是改為主決議通過第三十五案第三十五案謝謝我們邱正軍委員同意併第十二案凍結兩百萬元而且修正凍結科目為促進特定對象及弱勢者等就業服務就案已簽署好 第三十五案就併案通過併案修正通過了來 第三十六案"},{"start":23206.536,"end":23235.385,"text":"第三十六案謝謝楊二委員同意併第十二第三十五案凍結促進特定對象及弱勢者等就業服務就案兩百萬元已簽署好第三十六案並通過繼續第三十七案第三十七案謝謝蘇星泉委員同意併第十二三五三六案凍結兩百萬元修正凍結科目為促進特定對象及弱勢者等就業服務就案已簽署好"},{"start":23237.558,"end":23244.743,"text":"謝謝蘇昭偉第三期案就變通過第三十八案第三十八案謝謝我們盧縣議委員同意改為主決議已簽署"},{"start":23247.392,"end":23267.158,"text":"好謝謝陳委員那就給改委處決通過第40案第39案對不起第39案是我們陳決委員關切的是勞動部在補助地方政府成立銀髮人才服務據點這個據點的籌設的過程似乎有延後執行的一個狀況導致他的預算執行率偏低"},{"start":23267.898,"end":23291.99,"text":"要求要研議精進的相關作為那這個部分我們會跟續的跟地方政府來合作並且請他在規劃籌設相關的進度的時候要依照實際的需求來規劃辦理這個案子是不是懇請委員同委員已經同意並第十二三五三六三七案凍結兩百萬元凍結科目為促進特定對象及弱勢者等就業服務就案已簽署"},{"start":23292.45,"end":23317.615,"text":"對我補充一下112年你的預算執行率只有69.09%另外這個後來又跟你們調了資料婦女的再就業率執行率113年74.5%114年更糟糕是70%所以凍結就是如您講的啦凍結200萬然後希望你們可以回去加強謝謝謝謝謝謝沈委員這個我們繼續努力"},{"start":23319.855,"end":23322.276,"text":"好謝謝陳委員那39案就併案通過第40案第40案謝謝蘇清泉委員同意併第12、35、36、37、39案併案凍結200萬元修正凍結科目為促進特定對象及弱勢者等就業服務就案已簽署"},{"start":23340.709,"end":23360.195,"text":"好 謝謝蘇昭偉 第四案就並通過 第四十一案第四十一案謝謝邱政軍委員同意併第十二三五三六三七三九四十等案併案凍結兩百萬修正凍結科目為促進特定對象及弱勢者等就業服務就案已簽署"},{"start":23360.892,"end":23381.47,"text":"好 41案並案通過 繼續第42案第42案謝謝蘇清泉委員同意改為凍結200萬元修正凍結科目為特定對象及弱勢者就業業務的促進特定對象及弱勢者等就業服務就案已簽署好 謝謝蘇昭瑋 那就並案通過"},{"start":23382.651,"end":23393.237,"text":"第43案廖偉強委員非常感謝委員支持同意改為凍結服務費用媒體政策及業務宣導費1000萬元並第9案跟第30案已簽署好42案併案通過"},{"start":23401.695,"end":23409.721,"text":"第44案謝謝楊要委員同意改為病案凍結辦理僱用及就業獎助業務就案50萬元已簽署好謝謝楊委員那就44案變通過第45案"},{"start":23416.587,"end":23431.277,"text":"第45案謝謝我們主席劉委員這邊同意改為併前一案第44案凍結辦理僱用及就業講述業務就案50萬元已簽署謝謝主席好謝謝45案併40案通過接下來第46案"},{"start":23435.782,"end":23453.329,"text":"第46案謝謝蘇清泉委員同意改為凍結100萬元已簽署好謝謝蘇昭偉事實上就改為凍結100萬通過47案第47案我們陳金輝委員所關切的是我們在議後呢有推動改善缺工的一個擴大就業方案"},{"start":23453.849,"end":23480.49,"text":"那這個方案的執行率包括他的媒合就業的人數偏低應該要再進一步研議可以精進可行的一個方案那經過跟委員溝通拜會那我們也願意來繼續來努力那委員同意改為凍結促進國民就業100萬元已簽署是謝謝因為這個媒合就業人數只有達到你目標值的三成所以希望可以看到你的改善精進方案然後我們再來接凍謝謝"},{"start":23482.657,"end":23494.827,"text":"是這個部分我們在今年會針對這個義後缺工的一個方案的部分再做檢討檢討的依據第一個是來自於過去的執行經驗第二個是在這段時間我也不斷的拜會的這個業者"},{"start":23497.712,"end":23514.202,"text":"這個包括旅宿業、餐飲業等業者所以這個部分他們所提出來包括一些未來我們徵才如何去強化精準媒合包括體驗室的一個活動以及相關獎勵的一個做法規定做一些調整這個部分我們都會納入新的所以之前不夠精準的地方是"},{"start":23514.682,"end":23539.878,"text":"主要是說因為我們在媒合的過程當中有一些勞工朋友他可能覺得說聽起來這個就業機會他願意結果媒合成功以後他發現上工以後有一些跟他原來想像期待有一些落差或者是雇主也覺得這個勞工朋友他願意的話他雇用進來結果發現他所開的一個規格條件不夠精準導致他用進來的人他覺得不符合他的預期那這個東西未來我們都會在"},{"start":23540.899,"end":23546.73,"text":"結合這個事業單位提供資訊的時候做再更清楚的一個勾勒讓這個資訊能夠更透明更充足謝謝"},{"start":23549.249,"end":23570.377,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員 那47案就改動促進國民健康月華100萬嘛通過 那48案第48案 謝謝我們邱振軍委員同意改為主決議已簽署好 就改為主決議48案通過第49案49案的部分的話 謝謝楊耀委員同意把它改成主決議已經簽署"},{"start":23572.469,"end":23580.631,"text":"好謝謝楊委員19案改為處決通過第50案謝謝主席劉委員這邊同意改為併案凍結促進國民就業計畫200萬元併案的案案員包括14案15案16案等已簽署好50案併案修正會通過第51案第51案謝謝楊要委員同意改為凍結50萬元已簽署"},{"start":23600.356,"end":23617.589,"text":"好改動50萬50案通過第52案第52案謝謝廖偉強委員同意併案凍結服務費用媒體政策及業務宣導費1000萬元那併的案別包括第9案第30案第43案好50案併案通過接下來53案"},{"start":23621.496,"end":23651.256,"text":"第五十三案,我们承接委员这边所关切的是我们办理亚洲技能竞赛相关业务里面,这个业务是属于新增的大型计划,但是所编列的没宣费用占10%以上,那相关的一个编列的一个内涵呢,没有看到完整的规划,那经过拜会之后,委员同意并按改为冻结参加国际技能组织赛事及交流访问,办理亚洲技能竞赛相关业务100万元已签署,"},{"start":23653.978,"end":23674.691,"text":"53 54是併在一起動100萬所以之後希望看到後續你們發包的項目還有金額的細節謝謝首導謝謝委員好那53 54就是併案然後改動100萬通過接下來第55案第55案謝謝蘇清泉委員同意改3減1000萬元一千數"},{"start":23677.455,"end":23705.881,"text":"好第五十五案就改三減一千萬通過五十六案 第五十六案謝謝邱政軍委員同意改為三減五百萬已簽署好五十六案就改為三減五百萬通過五十七案 第五十七案我們邱政軍委員謝謝同意改為組決議已簽署好五十七案改組決議通過繼續五十八案 第五十八案謝謝楊委員同意改為併案凍結五十萬元已簽署好五十八案改凍結五十萬通過 五十九案"},{"start":23706.633,"end":23730.934,"text":"第五十九案我們謝謝召委這邊同意改為併五十八案凍結五十萬元已簽署五九併案通過接下來六十案第六十案謝謝養育委員這邊同意改為三減一百萬元已簽署好六十案三減一百萬通過六十一案六十一案這個是邱正義委員的提案同意改組決議已簽署"},{"start":23733.656,"end":23753.562,"text":"60案改為主決議好60案改為主決議通過62案62案是林淑媛委員的提案謝謝委員能夠支持也改為主決議已簽署好62案也改為主決議通過接下來63案63案陳議員的已經同意的3.1百萬已簽署好63案改例100萬通過64案"},{"start":23755.683,"end":23763.825,"text":"第六十三謝謝蘇清泉委員那同意改為三減兩百萬元以簽署謝謝蘇昭偉六十三就改列兩百萬改減列兩百萬通過第六十五案"},{"start":23775.709,"end":23783.413,"text":"第65案謝謝陳英委員同意併案凍結外國人聘僱管理及許可計劃100萬元已簽署第66案謝謝陳英委員同意改為凍結200萬元已簽署"},{"start":23791.994,"end":23813.858,"text":"好 改動兩百萬 六十六案通過好 接續六十七案 第六十七案謝謝我們蘇金權委員同意改為凍結一百萬元已簽署好 謝謝蘇昭偉 六十七案改動一百萬通過六十八案 第六十八案謝謝屯級委員同意並第六十五案凍結一百萬元已簽署"},{"start":23815.026,"end":23817.568,"text":"第69案謝謝邱正軍委員同意併案65 68兩案併案凍結100萬元已簽署併案凍結100萬通過70案"},{"start":23832.435,"end":23858.189,"text":"第70案我們林淑芬委員關切的是我們的移工的職聘中心過去我們的職聘移工的這個引進的一個方式他的服務的占比很低那希望我們能夠針對職聘的一個效能能夠再做精進那以印度移工引進為例希望能夠提高國對國的職聘的比率能夠達到50%為目標要求要提出具體可行的方案"},{"start":23858.809,"end":23878.216,"text":"那這個案子在職聘的效能上一直都是勞動部被很多的委員關切的一個方向畢竟如何能夠降低仲介在中間的一些這個可能的一個不必要的干預這個部分我們一直要努力那目前我們在方向上第一個包括職聘中心我們希望能夠擴增服務的據點"},{"start":23879.136,"end":23905.277,"text":"在今年看有沒有機會能夠再增加另外在中部跟南部各一個據點同時呢我們也希望這樣執聘中心能夠做到國跟國之間的直接互動我們也希望能夠增加海外選工的工作的一個範圍包括機構的看護或者是家庭的一個看護能夠再盡量去做這個部分的一個嘗試跟來源國來做溝通那所以這個部分我們會繼續來努力至於在印度移工這個部分的引進要拉高到50%關鍵會在於"},{"start":23907.659,"end":23930.329,"text":"印度方因為目前印度沒有職聘的經驗跟基礎所以就這個部分他們對於職聘的概念理解是模糊的那我們在過去的一次的工作經驗包括會前會等等一直在跟他們溝通台灣的職聘模式是怎麼樣運作那希望說能夠讓他們在理解的情況之下也跟我們一起來發展國對國的職聘這樣的一個機制那這個部分我們會繼續來努力"},{"start":23931.61,"end":23959.283,"text":"那一旦我們做到目前的階段成果之後我們會進一步再把這個引進的一個職併這個比率再盡量的來滾動減少來拉高那是不是可以懇請委員同意這個部分可以支持我們首先我想這個錢應該是還是要保留所以凍結改成一千萬但是我們的要求要不要改變我是覺得要求是我們是要求你提出具體的改革計劃"},{"start":23960.504,"end":23973.142,"text":"我沒有要求你馬上做到50%但是因為印度的國對國模式是可以擺脫我們過去數十年來都把國家的責任都叫這些仲介團體去辦"},{"start":23975.786,"end":23990.611,"text":"然後讓不少這個不當的剝削的狀況層出不窮那因為像以韓國為例韓國也都已經沒有所謂的仲介的角色了韓國整個制度運作起來就是沒有"},{"start":23991.391,"end":24020.611,"text":"那你說印度沒有這樣的一個經驗那我想也不用太擔心因為印度未來連韓國都可能要去那裡選工所以他們會發展得很快但我們不能不準備也不能沒有企圖所以我們是說你要提出一個改革計畫那以譬如說職聘達到50為目標為一個理想不是叫你馬上做到那你提出一個推動政治的改進的這一個計畫出來看看"},{"start":24024.636,"end":24032.887,"text":"其實我們在幾次跟應方的溝通裡面都不斷的讓應方知道我們對於職聘的這個方式的重視"},{"start":24034.884,"end":24052.044,"text":"當然硬方他也有他們他們習慣跟目前他們其實的一些的做法的思考但我們持續還是跟他溝通中但是每一次我們都有讓硬方知道說包括我們的國會都很關心職聘這件事情"},{"start":24052.725,"end":24080.394,"text":"那也希望執聘這件事情未來可以再跟印方的這個印度的移工引進裡面能夠有更多的機會跟更多的可能性我們不斷的在跟印方但你們跟他們表達這個意思的時候有談出具體的操作的具體的然後操作的方法讓他們可以理解嗎因為沒有道理這個移工的輸出母國不"},{"start":24082.475,"end":24090.92,"text":"選擇對他們的移工是比較友善而且是高度比較照顧的執聘方案而去選擇仲介"},{"start":24093.527,"end":24120.269,"text":"但是他們能不能想像說這樣的操作是什麼操作他們的障礙到底是在哪裏其實我們還在溝通中但有一些涉及到雙方在工作會議裏面溝通的細節可能不一定全然都適合在這邊來但我的意思是說你們有告訴他們操作的模式是顯然比仲介還更好的而且是可行的我們有很清楚的讓也讓應方知道說我們其實是非常重視指評這件事情我們對這件事情的期待"},{"start":24120.469,"end":24143.481,"text":"那你要提出具體可行的方法給人家看對但是因為這涉及到雙方的因為台灣的職聘做得不好第一個台灣的職聘做得不好所以剛才那個署長說他要把這個服務中心增加這個我們是樂觀其成但是就是說職聘做得不夠好不好那你要提出一個具體的方案給印度參考我的意思是說你們提了出來嗎"},{"start":24148.554,"end":24170.145,"text":"還是跟委員報告這個部分我們會先把我們目前的一個操作的一個經驗先讓運方有那個理解但我們操作的經驗對於移工是不友善的可敬信是不高的那不然我是這樣想就是說我知道委員會很關注我其實我自己很關注關於怎麼樣把職聘J鬼真的能夠做出真的能夠做出效能出來"},{"start":24170.765,"end":24199.361,"text":"他的可操作性很重要他的可敬性很重要那因為我們這邊當然動一千萬嘛我是覺得那不然我們動一千萬然後我們還是再看提出一個我們怎麼樣子精進執聘這一個做法要精進執聘的做法他的操作就是說不管是申請方或者是說要來台灣工作的外籍移工或是台灣的僱主他們在網路上操作的可敬性要相當高"},{"start":24201.152,"end":24218.157,"text":"我們或是在那個行政作業上的這個可進性要相當的高不能夠障礙重重因為我們願意提出一個是相關的這個怎麼樣增進這個是全面性的是是是因為包括我們接下來也會在"},{"start":24218.797,"end":24245.469,"text":"包括中部那個中分署或幾個地方要來設置這個職聘的分中心那我們也希望這個職聘的分中心能夠跟我們包括相關關心的團體來來商討怎麼樣真的把它給做出好的效能不是像過去的狀況因為我事實上我質詢的時候也談過嘛很多團體也反映過嘛就是說光是申請的不管是從移工端想要來的兩邊磨合的"},{"start":24247.21,"end":24266.578,"text":"那個操作的界面還有那個友善程度是相當的差的是對那我們這樣我們提我們提來提針對這個增進職聘的部分精進職聘的部分提出一個報告這樣子好不好這樣子這個精進的部分是了那另外一點你沒有回答的就是說那我們的印度移工我們對國對國職聘"},{"start":24269.66,"end":24291.933,"text":"你現在以現行5%為原則這個也太少因為現在才50個人對這個只是初期跟林委員說明因為坦白說我說就國內我們其實能夠做到的職聘精進這部分我們可以來提出但是因為跟硬方之間這當然有點涉及到雙方所以確實不完全操控在我們能夠"},{"start":24293.234,"end":24310.427,"text":"全部能夠操控在我們自己手上因為這裡面有涉及到硬方的這個我知道但是就是說那至少我們國會這裡的要求是說希望你至少要達到50%做不到那你們可以做到什麼哪一個你們5%做得到為什麼10%做不到"},{"start":24311.537,"end":24327.167,"text":"我們這樣好不好因為林委員的這個提案是針對這個印度移工的因為舊的那些那幾個輸出國輸出母國他們的模式都已經是運作都已經是仲介在控制當中了"},{"start":24328.087,"end":24352.033,"text":"當然你的精進執聘專案這個精進改善的方案看能不能再繼續提高執聘的比例這是我不敢說原木求魚啦但是其實是很困難重重的那因為印度的國對國執聘是我們期許是可以打破過去就有的由仲介壟斷的移工輸入的政策模式嘛那所以為什麼一直講印度並不是說只有印度"},{"start":24352.873,"end":24378.224,"text":"其實我們希望是方向是朝那個方向那印度是新的模式新的開發的來源國那所以我們在想說這個地方很重要是這樣子那針對印度你們可以有什麼樣的方案國內的執聘中心增加那你們去精進執聘制度的這個所有的改善的可靜性操作性有算程度把它精進起來那就印度這個"},{"start":24380.565,"end":24408.185,"text":"這個新開發的這個輸出股我們要做什麼我覺得我們會持續還是會持續跟硬方溝通我們對執聘這件事情的重視那我們當然我自己也不覺得關於5%這件事情其實是真的是比較低的所以我也希望能夠做到高於5%坦白說是這樣但是真的在跟硬方的溝通裡面這涉及到雙方的事情不完全真的不完全操之在我方這個我知道但是雙方這個這些"},{"start":24410.542,"end":24438.608,"text":"協商的時候就是工作會議裡面討論的時候本來就是你知道談判就是這樣子你提出一個那他們不能接受那再請他們再提出一個我看我們能不能接受就是你來我往give and take這樣好不好我們來我覺得我們可以把解凍的條件設定一個是提出一個這個現在當然是以5%為底線來未來來擴大的一個精進的做法的方案我說跟硬方之間"},{"start":24439.328,"end":24451.915,"text":"可是到底能夠做到哪一個數字坦白說這個當然我們當然是希望越高越好可是確實現在涉及到因為你們只有端出來大家都在期許期待結果端出來是5%所以讓人家感覺非常失望"},{"start":24455.076,"end":24475.545,"text":"是不是让我们先跟硬方先建立模式让他知道这个对他的国民是有好处的与其透过仲介不如透过我们这种模式来操作那他一旦觉得这个对他的国民是有好处的我们才有办法对啊但你的模式啊现在就是你模式包括你的制度要精进啊你现在制度不友善可信性很低"},{"start":24476.825,"end":24503.89,"text":"這個人家不會相信你是要做真的如果說在談判過程我發現你對方講的都是假話那我何必把你認真呢對不對你的職聘制度是不友善的可敬性不高的你們講說要國會議員很重視所以我們希望你們印度趕快也要來重視讓我們來談國對國的這個職聘印度好不好聽了說其實你們可敬性這麼低插座性這麼差然後友善程度這麼差你都說假的說真的"},{"start":24505.37,"end":24515.074,"text":"你要說請韓國那種制度端出來 人家相信這個操作起來是可行的你的操作起來是可行的 人家才會願意認真跟你們談吧好啦 是不是一樣動一簽嘛 它相關的因應作為的辦法提供出來之後 使得動之"},{"start":24526.278,"end":24543.666,"text":"還是報告很報告對現在都沒有問題就動議簽是共識嘛現在是說你要要求他做什麼的問題他要這個執聘分中心他要廣設嘛 要增加啦"},{"start":24544.366,"end":24570.072,"text":"然後對於植病制度他要去精進那第三個就是說就印度這個個案要怎麼要求的問題是不是你們你們想想看就提供一個報告出來給你是不是就拜託委員我們照您剛所提的這三個重點我們來提出一個那個書面的一個檢討跟規劃的報告經濟法院同意後才可以公知好可以OK好那這個案子委員是不是同意我們是用基金用途來做這個凍結數1000萬"},{"start":24573.161,"end":24596.139,"text":"你要到上面去喔好啦隨便啦OK你要做我們就重點是我們要改好第四案第七十案就改動一千萬謝謝委員好通過那接續第七十一案再來第七十一案謝謝蘇清泉委員同意改為主決議好謝謝蘇昭惟第七十一案改主決議通過第七十二案"},{"start":24596.718,"end":24617.446,"text":"第72案我們王玉敏委員關切的是我們外國人聘僱管理許可計劃裡面所編的媒體政策及業務宣導費在過去的一個執行狀況以112年為例執行率不佳只有8成3那其中外國人聘僱許可業務的執行率更低所以這個部分請我們確實來檢討那經過跟委員溝通這個確認委員同意改成動50萬元以簽署謝謝委員"},{"start":24626.38,"end":24650.871,"text":"好第七十三案改動五十萬通過第七十二案第七十三案改動五十萬通過第七十三案第七十三案謝謝陳昭之委員同意併同第十第二十第二十四案併案簡列服務費用媒體政策及業務宣導費一千萬元為簽署好七十三案併案通過第七十三案"},{"start":24651.391,"end":24658.017,"text":"第74案謝謝陳導致委員同意併同第25 2674案併案刪減服務費用推展費300萬元已簽署好 74案併案通過第75案"},{"start":24665.049,"end":24688.195,"text":"第75案我們王正旭委員這邊非常感謝同意併同第65、68、69案併案凍結外國人聘僱管理及許可計劃100萬元已簽署好請問委員這個部分我再確認一下因為我們知道很多的外籍移工他都是在育齡的階段"},{"start":24689.475,"end":24709.511,"text":"在台灣前一陣子媒體有報導其實他們的下一代就變成可能是一個無一兒少的這個社會問題那這個社會問題基本上我們就需要這些兒少的權利來加以保障所以看起來就安定基金就用了兩千七百多萬來做安置"},{"start":24710.211,"end":24730.613,"text":"那在衛護部那邊又需要引進這相關的這個業務的費用來協助照顧這一群的這個無業兒少又花了這個1400多萬所以兩者加起來就用了這個4200多萬那更重要就是很多的醫療照顧需求會變成呆帳"},{"start":24731.774,"end":24757.866,"text":"這個帶上就變成是公立醫院的一個很大的困擾所以如何能夠精進這方面的照顧或者是改善那剛剛所提到的我對國的這些職聘將來在處理的時候能不能也把這些可能造成的問題也納為在這個處理過程當中的一些訴求讓他們如果知道未來不管是職聘或者是有其他仲介之下"},{"start":24758.726,"end":24784.991,"text":"把這些要求也都能夠納為規範的這個內容的話希望能夠減少在台灣這方面的困擾所以我不知道針對這部分可不可以請部長或者是同仁能夠來再妥善處理是跟委員報告謝謝委員的這個提點第一個有關我們的移工朋友他在來台灣這個部分所生育所衍生的這些問題其實據我們過去的一個調查了解"},{"start":24785.751,"end":24811.341,"text":"女性移工朋友來台灣懷孕絕大部分差寫是非計劃內的所以是那個意外所以我們希望說再提醒他如何做生育的一些預防或者是說做一些準備做一些規劃我們有這個移工懷孕的一個指引提醒他再如何避孕然後一旦真的懷孕的過程當中他相關的工作權益跟社會適應相關的資源等等從懷孕前然後呢懷孕"},{"start":24811.861,"end":24840.061,"text":"过程当中跟生产之后包括这个养育的部分我们有提供这样一个指引的资讯来给他做参考但是更重要的说那如果一旦发生了这样子的一个生育的状况所衍生的这些无依跟有依而少的部分我们目前是结合卫福部跟移民署这边来提供相关的安置跟后续的一个处理的服务那这边我们会继续用跨部会的一个力量来处理这个部分那从源头管理搭配后续的这个部分的一个处理希望能够把这个问题能够减到最轻"},{"start":24848.055,"end":24859.647,"text":"因為當初就是在簽約的時候對仲介也沒有任何約束力或者是希望他們也能夠就責提供相關的這些費用後面的處理這個是那時候也跟部長討論過這個問題"},{"start":24861.709,"end":24886.731,"text":"這部分當然我們是希望能夠讓這個仲介其實他在這個仲介在這個過程裡面其實他有他的賺到了一些利潤他應該在這邊其實有些責任包括我們其實透過可能仲介的評鑑或者是相關的一些工具希望能夠督促仲介能夠在這部分承擔更多的責任當然這個工作坦白說並不容易做可是我覺得我們會盡還是會盡力的來要求"},{"start":24890.854,"end":24904.964,"text":"好所以第75案就併案併案凍結100萬元併案凍結100萬通過繼續第76案第76案謝謝廖偉強委員這個案子同意併案凍結服務費用媒體政策及業務宣導費1000萬元併的是第9案第30案第43案跟第52案已簽署"},{"start":24919.827,"end":24947.914,"text":"好 76案就是病案來修正後通過第77案第77案我們王玉明委員關切的是我們的移工失聯的問題所以連帶衍生的後續的治安跟社會的問題等等所以希望我們要強化改善失聯移工的這個狀況那目前我們對於這個失聯移工的已經從預防面跟查處面宣導面等等去做加強處理那跟委員溝通敗會以後委員同意"},{"start":24948.495,"end":24955.912,"text":"并按冻结外国人聘雇管理及许可计划100万元并的案别是65、68、69、75案委员已签署"},{"start":24959.609,"end":24984.37,"text":"這案我再補充說明一下因為之前我還曾經召開一個記者會就是說我們有這個移工他應該已經回到要回到他母國結果他到桃園機場的時候他已經進了這一個即將要進這個安檢結果他在中途竟然可以變裝變裝之後呢就很順利的看著那個影蛋他就很順利的又"},{"start":24985.471,"end":25012.945,"text":"出去機場了然後就不見了然後就失聯了那像這樣子的一個環節這個是因為當時有這個有人陳情我們才發現業者說我明明把移工都送到機場了然後結果接到通知說我的移工跑了他就覺得怎麼可能結果掉引帶出來才發現真的就眼睜睜看著他走進去機場了結果呢一路掉這個引帶才發現他中間可以變裝然後就可以退出來"},{"start":25015.086,"end":25041.359,"text":"就是其實也沒有人在看管喔那這個議題我不知道到目前為止你們跟這個移民署這邊或跟機場這邊你們有達成什麼樣的共識嗎在SOP上面就是你們要做怎麼樣的處理嗎因為這的確就是漏洞嘛那我是不知道經由這樣子的方法我高度懷疑這不是第一例啦因為他會這樣子一定是有人教"},{"start":25042.159,"end":25069.061,"text":"那如果不是第一例的話過去有多少已經循著這個漏洞其實就是變成是逃逸的勞工那像類似這一種你們在解決失聯移工就是你從源頭上面你的SOP方面有一些是可以可以去你應該可以去處理的應處理而未處理而導致就是這樣的狀況你看你現在累計我這邊的提案還少了因為現在最新的統計已經破9萬了"},{"start":25070.822,"end":25098.34,"text":"那剛剛我們還提到我們印度其實也要開放新的移工進來但是你這個原來的問題我現在看起來勞動部跟移民署好像你們找不到什麼方法去減緩這個外籍移工就是持續逃逸的這樣的一個現象你們到底有沒有持續在研擬一些新的做法那你先回答我我當時開記者會要求你們要改善的這個你們現在在SOP上面到底有沒有做什麼樣的調整那第二個問題是你們現在針對"},{"start":25101.282,"end":25126.779,"text":"就是移工失業人數創新高現在已經破9萬了到底你們跟移民署有沒有持續性有一些專案跟對策來處理跟委員報告上一次我也有提到質詢的時候有提到這個案子那其實我們有檢討這個部分一方面固然是移工沒有那個仲介沒有擅進他的一個接受僱主委託所做的這個職責所以這個部分固然仲介部分有一定的責任再來一個就是有關在機場裡面"},{"start":25128.24,"end":25141.274,"text":"的動線尤其進到管制區之前這個部分似乎我們在跟機場這邊其實還有一些值得再去做檢討的一個地方這個未來都其實應該去做檢討跟精進包括對目前這個部分還"},{"start":25144.286,"end":25163.008,"text":"跟委員說明一下後來我們有跟這個包括機場公司跟航警局聯繫那航警局這邊呢也表示說之後只要周邊公司有這樣子認為移工可能會有失聯的疑慮在送進管制區之前可以來通報航警局還有我們的"},{"start":25164.129,"end":25179.842,"text":"勞動部的機場服務站的人員可以來配同那這樣送進去管制區之後呢那如果有其他增益的等等事項需要申訴我們的機場服務站的人員可以協助他處理所以人還是應該要搭機回去那申訴的事項我們會留下來協助"},{"start":25182.891,"end":25195.096,"text":"這個部分我建議你們要做出一個很完整的SOP也不會什麼都推給這個中介業者因為那個案例我看到情況是他真的已經送他到機場也看著他走進去了"},{"start":25196.311,"end":25222.692,"text":"然後但是還是出現這樣一個情況所以我覺得你們在SOP你們各自的責任應該要做到什麼然後譬如說你若要讓中介業者提出申請那你的窗口是什麼他可以透過什麼樣的管道我覺得你們現在其實都沒有我希望你們再開一次的專案會議把這個流程就走清楚了這個是我們很顯而易見我們可以去防堵的就應該要這樣子做那第二個你們現在到底跟"},{"start":25223.393,"end":25242.03,"text":"移民署沒有持續性的會議這些九萬名的這種失聯的移工到底這個問題你們想要怎麼處理因為他衍生真的還蠻多問題剛剛王正旭委員提到的是就是還有這個小孩子他可能沒有國籍沒有戶籍然後他的身份權也沒有受到保障的問題"},{"start":25243.544,"end":25263.059,"text":"好謝謝委員那想這個協調部分我們會馬上來處理確立這個SOP讓我們仲介同業業者可以來通報那第二個部分我們現在持續跟內政部移民署以及國安單位一樣每年都有在定期的檢討相關的措施包括在預防的部分由我們勞動部跟"},{"start":25263.739,"end":25289.113,"text":"一些新的或者是持續開放的這些產業部會那對於移工的一些管理對於雇主的宣導這個也請他們持續的再協助那務必要提高我們的這個雇主的法尊第二個部分就是在茶的部分呢我們也跟移民署跟國安單位也持續在合作所以也跟委員報告在113年移工的失聯率其實已經降到3點多%"},{"start":25290.734,"end":25318.009,"text":"跟我們111年5點多趴來比的話已經下降蠻多的那持續在查處非法移工跟非法僱主的人數也由我們移民署來跟公安單位來持續有在查處 人數一樣也有增加那以113年來講大概有查過2.3萬人左右好 謝謝說明這樣OK齁好 謝謝王委員那這739病案來通過"},{"start":25319.522,"end":25329.431,"text":"好現在如果委員不在現場就不用再謝謝了我們就快一點齁78案陳委員的案子來請說明78案陳英委員這邊同意併案凍結外國人聘僱管理許可計劃100萬併的案別包括65 68 69 75 77好78案併案通過79案79案楊耀委員這邊已經同意改成凍結200萬可併案委員已簽署"},{"start":25346.67,"end":25359.285,"text":"好 七十九案變案改動兩百萬通過八十案八十案那謝謝召委這邊同意併同七十九案凍結兩百萬已簽署好 八十併七十九案來通過七十一案"},{"start":25360.239,"end":25377.505,"text":"八十一岸 對不起八十一岸那八十一岸陳軍委員這邊關切的也是職聘中心的一個被使用的狀況不是很理想那也檢討我們的一個調查報告也顯示僱主沒有使用職聘的原因是因為沒有後續的代辦跟管理的一個服務也沒有時間親自辦理"},{"start":25378.945,"end":25394.08,"text":"以及申请文件复杂等等那这个部分还有待改善那经过跟委员这边沟通委员同意这个后续呢冻结救安基金外国人聘雇管理及许可计划外国人聘雇许可业务向下200万元已签署"},{"start":25395.02,"end":25422.627,"text":"對這邊是根據你們自己出版的移工管理及運用調查報告有五成的雇主是不知道職聘的所以這個成效真的太差了希望未來的經濟方案你們可以把這些他們覺得沒有辦法使用這個服務的缺點都把它整合起來所以動兩百萬謝謝謝謝委員指導好改動兩百萬八十案通過繼續八十二案第八十案楊耀委員這邊同意改為凍結一百萬元已簽署"},{"start":25423.888,"end":25440.664,"text":"好 八十二案改動一百萬通過 繼續八十三案八十三 謝謝王議員的提案也同意改為主決議已簽署 謝謝好 八十三改主決議通過 八十四案第八十四案陳昭智委員同意改為檢列一百萬元已簽署好 八十四案檢列一百萬通過 八十五案"},{"start":25442.432,"end":25463.386,"text":"85案 林月琴委員已經改動結50萬 已經簽署好 80萬 改動50萬 通過86案 86案 感謝昭緯改成主決議 已經簽署 謝謝好 那就改成主決議 通過87案 第67案 鋪圈紀委已經簽名撤案了"},{"start":25463.936,"end":25489.365,"text":"好 八千次案 第八十八案他也同意但是因為他漏簽了他現在回選區了不會出席會議所以就不予處理嘛八十八案不予處理好八十九案八十九案陳比宇委員這裡面也簽署一個組決議了改為八十九案改組決議通過九十案九十案陳穎委員同意改為"},{"start":25490.775,"end":25516.145,"text":"檢列100萬已簽署90 改檢列100萬通過91 案91 案圖權級委員同意改為主決議已簽署好 91 案改為主決議通過92 案92 案楊耀委員同意改為凍結100萬不檢列已簽署92 改為凍結100萬通過9393 案邱正英委員已經同意簽署改為主決議好 93 改為主決議通過93"},{"start":25517.698,"end":25538.024,"text":"90案王玉明委員關切的是我們救安基金的這個這個資用的一個合一性的問題那經過溝通拜會之後委員同意並案凍結100萬元已簽署好並案改凍100萬90案通過95案第95案謝謝初心泉委員同意改為主決議已簽署"},{"start":25539.324,"end":25549.531,"text":"好 謝謝蘇昭偉 改為主席通過96案第96案 邱振軍委員同意並第94案凍結一般行政管理計劃服務費用50萬元已簽署"},{"start":25553.253,"end":25570.334,"text":"好併九十四案對九六併九四是不是是好那就九六併九四通過九十七案第九十七案謝謝召委這邊同意改為主決議已簽署好這個是同意的啦齁那我還是補充一下給部長跟署長參考這買一些"},{"start":25571.89,"end":25598.322,"text":"叮叮噹噹的東西最好是回歸公務預算吧用這種去買不過跟委員報告這個案子因為我們在發展署這邊如果是新莊沒有問題因為我們沒有直接受理第一線的服務可是我們另外在中華路的事務中心他每天在做的就是受理移工申請案件所以這個部分我們會確實的遵守我們自己所訂的一個規則該用公務的用公務 該用基金用基金好啦 好 就給主席通過了 98案"},{"start":25600.185,"end":25624.315,"text":"第98案 謝蘇英權委員主決議我們遵照辦理好 謝謝蘇召委我覺得我們這些基金編列就是主要是部本部或者是公務預算太少然後都在擋這個基金的主意這個我也有跟部長談過"},{"start":25626.156,"end":25642.087,"text":"大家都便宜行事然後發生一連串的失誤跟這樣社會過敏所以你本身福利超薪你自己的不本不為乎或是你的公共預算自己要變成酒也要銷售那個基金要給人家拿來演這個當然要不得的這個是我"},{"start":25647.41,"end":25671.156,"text":"感覺這一陣子以來最大的感受希望部裡面也要自己好自為之跟蘇緣說明其實我們在我們救安基金的改革強化把關的方案裡面第一個其實就是表達我們接下來會希望能夠跟行政院來爭取該回到公務預算的就回到公務預算尤其在其他部會裡面是用公務預算編的就用公務預算"},{"start":25671.756,"end":25700.574,"text":"那哪些是要用公務預算哪些是用基金我們畫一條線這條線是如果是直接服務勞工的比方說救福中心直接訓練場這是直接服務勞工的我們認為可以用基金可是如果不是直接服務勞工的我們這些行政的支出包括行政的大樓的運作管理等等我們認為就應該用公務預算我們基本上畫在這條線裡面這個大家要搞清楚不要這樣便宜行事我覺得這要不得以上"},{"start":25701.194,"end":25714.678,"text":"蘇昭偉的指示就是台語說不要消避厭啦公義說要大格局啦對啦齁好謝謝好99案主席是陳議委員的提案主決議我們就要辦理已簽署謝謝好99案就照這樣通過100案100案那林月琴委員同意修正主決議文字已簽署好那文字修正要通過接下來101案"},{"start":25727.397,"end":25743.431,"text":"101案謝書清權委員同意改為主決議並已簽署好 謝謝 101案改為主決議通過好 現在請宣讀主決議文字修正部分"},{"start":25744.571,"end":25766.267,"text":"第五案及第六案請勞動部於三個月內提出書面報告第三十二案原請勞動部提出書面報告第三十三案請勞動部於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面檢討報告第三十四案請勞動部勞動力發展署向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告第四十八案"},{"start":25768.766,"end":25791.78,"text":"請勞動部於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面檢討報告第57案 刪除凍結術第71案 請勞動部於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告第89案 請勞動部針對前開要點之食物申請情況及精進作為向提案人及立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告"},{"start":25792.62,"end":25819.847,"text":"第93案請勞動部於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出精進勞工法律輔助措施書面報告第38案刪除凍結數字凍結文字第87案第二段刪掉凍結文字第100案"},{"start":25822.315,"end":25838.654,"text":"第七第七行第七個字開始日前勞動部長這個部分一直刪除文字到勞動基準法第八行勞動基準法之適用第二案"},{"start":25842.174,"end":25864.861,"text":"第二行開始且自開始刪除然後改成勞動部對於委員提案勞保撥補及政府負擔最終支付責任入法表達尊重我國千萬勞工懷著無法確認未來退休生活是否得到保障的不安疑慮然後再來第二段刪除凍結文字使得凍資條件"},{"start":25866.852,"end":25891.843,"text":"然後文字改成請勞動部向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出勞保財務改善因應對策第17案刪除簡列簡列的條件然後改成請勞動部向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告"},{"start":25895.882,"end":25921.31,"text":"第49案刪除煽動條件然後改成請勞動部於三個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告第61案刪除簡列文字然後改成請於三個月內提出書面報告送交立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":25926.397,"end":25947.305,"text":"第62案把凍結條件刪除然後改成第二行但相關安全促進計劃各個產業的覆蓋範圍加各個產業然後再倒數第三行改成提出全要求提出全部高風險產業成效書面報告"},{"start":25956.977,"end":25984.377,"text":"第86案改成請勞動部以使用者為中心概念透過簡易簡明易懂方式呈現工作生活平衡與員工協助方案之概念與推動方式加強優化網站介面取得無障礙規範AA等等級標章充實網站內容新知資訊並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告以立輔導企業推動工作與"},{"start":25988.148,"end":26005.611,"text":"平衡措施九十一案第四行開始業務司長達旬時回覆委員質詢其點擊率及宣傳績效所達複製數據實習爭議爆發後民眾聽聞開始為點擊增加與事件發生前事實的點擊率差異甚大然後刪除凍結條件"},{"start":26019.093,"end":26045.487,"text":"第95案改成請於三個月內提出書面報告然後刪除簡列的文字第97案刪除簡列文字然後最後一行改成請就飲水機空氣清淨機汰換率高之問題事實檢討辦公設備之使用效率及實際需求編列相關預算並向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告"},{"start":26051.87,"end":26075.482,"text":"第一百零一案從第二第二行開始較上年度增加二十一萬兩千元為準決基金預算建議依行政院一一三至一五年政府機關及學校用電效率提升計畫落實執行節電措施把簡列條件刪除第二十九案"},{"start":26078.626,"end":26081.034,"text":"第三行 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我個人是非常非常敬佩"},{"start":45.236,"end":59.22,"text":"有的人認為推動婦人可以改善台灣的未來這我感覺非常有信心我來自南台灣的台南這是我的故鄉我的故鄉有美好的家鄉漂亮的土地其實我也支持以婦人來過渡"},{"start":73.633,"end":100.358,"text":"來培養新的力量可是我們的執政黨沒有這樣做它覺得恢復力量的加分比較對台灣比較適合我也來尊重所以看到它來開發太陽能發展跟風吹發展的時候我個人也覺得台灣有一點點希望因為畢竟我們的生活是要進步的"},{"start":101.946,"end":122.994,"text":"那麼在進步的生活裡面,每一年的用電的度數就不斷不斷地升高都要考慮身份,生活也要身份吃一碗大麵,我對十五口吃到現在五十五口,每天都在企價這個中間如果聽到電競企價,人家說不要企價,吃麵會出錢到位就要到消費者的身份定"},{"start":133.171,"end":146.865,"text":"我看到的是我的土地比北海、美麗的台北、這個無親、就親像卡車旁邊大一塊一塊的沙龍髮絲一樣你去到我的故鄉台南再看,你的老百姓過去我們所看到的那個海浪山、那個天際山"},{"start":158.308,"end":163.171,"text":"一直這麼美麗的殘航土地為什麼今天你看起來因為太陽能發電如果民間可以解決台灣領域的問題我也要忍耐這麼久可是不是這樣因為有太多狡猾因為地形的犯罪我簡單在這裡跟大家做一個報告"},{"start":185.524,"end":205.542,"text":"世界太陽能發電的新聞出來的介紹,在中國大陸,一度電差不多在一公里至一公里所以剛才有人說太陽能這麼小,我相信在印度,一度電只有一公里至一公里的代表在美國"},{"start":208.946,"end":215.552,"text":"一坨電是3.3元一坨太陽能是2.2元日本有比較貴的,也是2.3元而已我們台灣,一坨要5元這裏面有冠、雙、九、結、衣冠還有我們地形的限制"},{"start":234.232,"end":239.715,"text":"所以現年從這裡看起來,我們是沒辦法發展到兩顆外的太陽能這是對我們一個先天不足所以大家都要共同努力,不論在哪一個角度你看到這個太陽能公司成立前半年新代表十萬經過四年五年後,前半年新代表一百千萬"},{"start":264.79,"end":278.04,"text":"熬午餚的今天看起所 內容給你看看 我看到的老百姓原來是犧牲我們無親台地 犧牲人民的血汗漂亮的屋檐 共和座 力量 發展但是落地的地跟爸爸 在我們的道頂 捏肉是他的打擊"},{"start":293.833,"end":305.218,"text":"這種太陽靈我認可不來有人說在寧,福靈不是最瘦的福靈後天不是最瘦的,但是它是比較瘦的但是在台灣它是最瘦的,就要利用頭疼你知道去我們南台南,到英安、高考、那邊"},{"start":322.891,"end":333.197,"text":"發電機在跑發電廠燒了你只有摩托車在巷子上騎去巷子上買一包粉凍來你平常吃的阿嬤嘛你這個白色的褲子洗好我們老外把吊在那邊吊不用半小時一天一天 一天一天阿嬤輸有受嗎 團團受啊各位"},{"start":352.278,"end":358.7,"text":"在這裏講就是政策,沒有絕對的對,沒有絕對的不對,要怎麼讓人民便利?我請教中間的專家,我們台灣的超級電腦的勝率,現在世界排名如何?我們要怎麼發展,他說很壞,為什麼?電力不穩定,沒電,要怎麼有超級電腦?"},{"start":380.731,"end":383.253,"text":"沒有超級電腦 要怎麼有AI?這是國安的問題啊我們的軍艦要怎麼發電?每天都要看美國大的 要買什麼?要用什麼?這就是國安的問題尤其我們城市 它說閉口的時候 我們的氣筒浮靈所以今天你這個手法就是 要滿足它閉口的時候"},{"start":410.592,"end":420.565,"text":"今天如果沒有抽薪補償 法令沒有修改萬一必要的時候 你我我 大家就要眼睛睜睜 人最重要不知道要怎麼應對"},{"start":424.943,"end":448.246,"text":"全世界包括日本三一一受到這麼大的傷害傳播不斷地被停止 到今天重啟傳播不再新建 不再新建美國也一樣 澳洲也一樣如果台灣 例外各位學者 各位專家 各位先進我們沒辦法超前部署"},{"start":449.471,"end":454.313,"text":"為我們的家孫保留擔保和重新選定的空間我們不用去做任何的決定但是這個法令如果沒有先把酒醃起來像在那樣萬一受到壓力還要重啟恐怕會來不及啦所以朝廷保守不一定要安全"},{"start":477.694,"end":493.488,"text":"不是沒有安全不行啦但是 留給你我大家 阿伯人家說 藤梨腿也就留三尺後讓我們大家有淡泊和寬鬆的空間讓我們的家屬有淡泊和寬鬆的空間 寬鬆的空間讓我們的母親在台有淡泊和休息 寬鬆的空間謝謝"},{"start":505.154,"end":507.226,"text":"謝謝謝龍介委員的發言我們接下來有請"}]}},{"id":"159342","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159342","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8ff7eca513856a41c5a34583edacdd4128962b2f3400241f6147423978a1619b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:30:14 - 10:37:53","影片長度":"00:07:39","會議時間":"2025-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第2次公聽會（事由：召開「債務人保險契約價值的強制執行爭議（俗稱保單抵債）保險法該怎麼修？」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-19","start_time":"2025-03-19T10:30:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-19T10:37:53+08:00","duration":459,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.14909375000000002,"end":99.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.81284375000001,"end":126.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.69471875,"end":132.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.29284375,"end":173.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.86034375,"end":230.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.89784375000002,"end":301.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.02596875,"end":399.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.08659375,"end":400.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.14971875000003,"end":403.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.42784375,"end":404.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.77784375000005,"end":406.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.90409375,"end":438.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.81471875000005,"end":450.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.09971875,"end":454.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.74471875,"end":457.02284375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.472,"end":13.818,"text":"謝謝主席那今天是我們這個公聽會還有這個經管會的這個官員還有這個與會的這個學者專家那今天的這個公聽會呢那主要是在這個討論這個保單抵債那保險法怎麼修"},{"start":17.62,"end":44.885,"text":"那這個我剛有聽了一下這個各個學者專家的一些寶貴的意見那其實這一次修法的背景主要就是說在這個111年的12月9號最高法院的民事大法庭他有一個裁定就是說這個執行法院於必要的時候的合法執行命令終止債務人為邀保人之人受保險契約命第三人保險公司償付解約金那因為有了這個裁定之後呢哇"},{"start":45.325,"end":71.584,"text":"就造成民事法庭大家都非常的忙碌我們的金管會其實也發現到了會有一些問題出來第一個就是說造成債務人還有他的親屬失掉了維持生活經濟安定或身體健康所需要的保險保障然後損及國人保險保障的權益然後也對執行機關造成衝擊衍生龐大的社會成本"},{"start":76.567,"end":89.736,"text":"這個修法其實金管會是現在才拿到立法院來其實在去年跟今年有非常多的立法委員都相當的關心包含本席也有提出這個相關的修法"},{"start":90.396,"end":108.804,"text":"那其實這個相關的修法大概跟這一次金管會的這個修法的重點其實也差不多第一個就是說強制執行的標的它的額度到底是要多少違憲那第二個就是引入這一個介入權的一個制度那第三呢就是"},{"start":109.824,"end":132.434,"text":"健康險及傷害險不得作為扣押或是強制執行標的那剛剛講的這三個修正的重點第三點我覺得聽起來是比較有共識就是健康險傷害險不得作為扣押或是強制執行的標的但是對於前面兩點就是說那到底執行的標的額度要多少那現在金管會它所提出來這個保險法修法是說"},{"start":133.834,"end":147.959,"text":"這個解約金沒有超過最近一年公告當地區最低生活費的1.2倍的三個月不得作為扣押或強制執行的標的我看這個包含很多的立委對這個都有意見我自己也有意見"},{"start":149.94,"end":172.399,"text":"引入介入權的制度我也聽到有一些比較不同的討論那金管會這邊是保單遭到扣押具有保險利益的受益人或一定範圍內的親屬配偶子女父母兄弟姐妹可在取得邀保人及被保險人的書面同意之後並更為新的邀保人那這個當然大家可以討論那我先討論就是說"},{"start":174.32,"end":198.526,"text":"這個額度的問題那其實我也跟這個金管會問過就是說你這個最低生活費1.2倍的三個月比如說在台北市就是7萬3那我自己在新北那就是6萬那其他這一個6多之外的呢那就更低了大概就5萬多那這個其實對於我們當初的修法期待其實有點落差"},{"start":199.266,"end":215.352,"text":"那這個算是按照這個強制執行法的一個規定但是譬如說像我在新北那明明跟台北是一個共同的生活圈那只是這個一橋之隔發現說那一個台北市是七萬塊七萬三新北就是六萬就少了一萬三"},{"start":216.872,"end":241.819,"text":"那當然有解釋說這個公告的地區這地區你可以到時候你可以跟法官說明這個可能是你這個戶籍地或是說你生活你現在住的地方在哪裡或是說你工作地點在哪裡那可能會有這個不同的計算的方式但是我認為說這個法律下去規定還是要明確不是到時候我們再去法官的"},{"start":242.199,"end":257.96,"text":"面前講說我戶籍是在雲林但是我工作地點是在台北市我住是住在新北市這樣子是有點複雜而且就是額度也太低了我也認同說我們有一些專家學者的意見就是說要提高了這個額度"},{"start":260.063,"end":286.416,"text":"那這個額度不是說你的最低的生活費用而已最低的生活費用而已那有些學者認為說是不是要把這個商帳的費用或是說一些失能照顧對於家庭的負擔這部分呢也把它納進去那所以可以參考這個小額中老保險的額度這個來做參考那額度就會拉高那第二個就是說是不是也納入這個因受撫養人還有這一個人數那把它加進去之後"},{"start":288.817,"end":307.708,"text":"再計算他的生活費用那也會比我們現在金管會所提出來的這個就是一張保單就是最高就是7萬3的這個額度那我認為這部分我聽下來是大家對於這個最低的額度比較有不同的意見然後都普遍就希望說這個額度能夠再拉高"},{"start":308.508,"end":335.572,"text":"第二個就是說介入權的制度介入權的制度其實在本席或是其他的委員大概都有納進去介入權制度我認為這方面應該雖然有比較不同的意見但是我認為基本上大部分都是同意引入介入權的制度就是包含被保險人、要保人或被保險人的配偶、父母、子女或是兄弟姊妹等等"},{"start":336.152,"end":351.855,"text":"那第三個我覺得這個是基本上我還蠻支持的就是說我們這個有一些職業的球員比如說像這個參加這個十二強的棒球賽或是這次經典賽這個賽然後你在短時間你去參加比賽那因為他們都是職業球員那職業球員基本上這個也是屬於這個職棒的這個球團那所以說去參加這個短時間的比賽有可能會受傷"},{"start":365.897,"end":392.026,"text":"但是呢因為它是短時間所以國內有一些保險公司可能不願意去去做承保那所以你們在這一個修正的第167條是第一項這個增訂透過保險經紀人可以向國外之保險業投保的一個規定我覺得這個是蠻符合現在的一個需求因為接下來就是不管是這個值班或是說我們其他的這些職業賽事那有可能在這個"},{"start":393.406,"end":416.544,"text":"短時間裡面要去參與比賽但是也會有風險但是因為在台灣你要找到合適的保險公司我本來想說在台灣我們六支職棒球隊裡面有兩支球隊是跟銀行有關他們也都跟保險業都有關係但是好像他們承保意願也不一定高所以至少透過這一條的修訂有機會跟國外的保險業投保我覺得對於"},{"start":422.569,"end":449.93,"text":"球員或是對球團來講那基本上都會有更多的保障那所以這個以上做一些說明那最主要我是希望說這個保險法修正案能夠能夠在這個會期能夠儘速通過如果這個已經被行政院列為這個是優先的法案希望說在公聽會之後再拜託召委我們這個再排時間再來做審查好 謝謝"},{"start":451.556,"end":456.406,"text":"好 謝謝昆城委員 非常寶貴的一個意見那接著我們請趙學斌律師"}]}},{"id":"159350","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159350","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8686bccf595f83335405788fab8fe149e9ba850061ce775092cdafff4c0ecf7955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"10:53:22 - 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是避債"},{"start":290.174,"end":312.464,"text":"結果為了這些人我們讓他成為一個強制執行的標的後造成的結果試問有多少案件要求強制解約的是這一種拿很多張保單來避債的所以我們最後還是要根據案件的量來思考我現在很快的給大家看一下保險的內容跟趙委員往下"},{"start":314.096,"end":340.312,"text":"就大家討論到比例原則再往下看有的是醫療型的大家都討論了再往下看有的人呢是要把人物理重新投保我現在很多來找我們立法委的民眾都這樣再往下看受益人那請取私就保險金的權利所以呢就有老師說我們來弄個一個介入權所以我覺得根本最後面的還是要問的是我們解決求助我們的民眾所以我特別呢也把我們的這個那個消費者對我們的"},{"start":342.401,"end":369.906,"text":"平均中心要找來我過去你往前跳我們經歷了這麼多這麼多過去我本人在不同的委員會我們都透過了這些方式去尋求解決那麼我們看到了在2024年5月就是去年的時候這個保險法排入了議程往下看所以我們曾經過去有主張過金融要怎麼樣金融消費平均中心要如何金環會如何如何這些主張回到最後"},{"start":370.706,"end":397.431,"text":"我們就是要就教於我們學者專家收集這麼多意見是不是我剛剛聽到幾個可能的方向就是因為我本身不是法律科班但是我知道法律人最難說一個舉證之所在敗訴之所在舉證責任反轉我剛剛有聽到幾個這樣的意見也就是說債權人如果認為債務人有明顯的透過保險契約來逃避他應付的責任的時候是否應該由債權人來舉證他跟法院請求"},{"start":398.931,"end":419.564,"text":"因為只要是金管會 只要是保險局 明訂什麼中老型保單啊 可以豁免馬上我們就有個廣告 必在保單因為保單的設計多重啊 個五要花八門啊絕對趕不上我們法律的設計 絕對趕不上我們保單產品的設計啊每次一個新的保單發出來"},{"start":420.973,"end":449.384,"text":"只要說法律上到底認不認定它是在我們這個請求權的豁免範圍之外只要是有人認為是是保險公司會宣傳說我們來發行一個必在保單大家都要買啊因為國人把保單它當作是保障工具還是那個理財工具太分歧了所以呢 適度上我們應該慢慢地收斂怎麼收斂怎麼樣抓住我們主要的這樣的標的我們是要減量因為司法是各量橫著"},{"start":450.808,"end":473.957,"text":"行政才是通案解決我們用一個通案解決但是不能去妨礙到司法個案橫著的這個原理所以我是覺得在這個通案這個解決的過程當中我們把一些原則定出來但是我們保留給個案衡量由權力人去跟法院主張現在剛好相反因為大法已經裁定了所以呢"},{"start":475.53,"end":504.218,"text":"這樣的一個個案衡量它變成是通案解決為什麼法院那麼多案每個案都要請求法官來裁定嗎裁法官才沒有那個生命呢為什麼因為大法庭的裁定太簡單了嘛但是他寫的很簡單啊他寫什麼他寫說必要時啊執行法院必要時得合法執行命令終止債務人為要保人資人壽保險契約啊必要時這三個字它就是個案衡量的精神嘛但是現在在民事執行上是什麼"},{"start":505.746,"end":533.934,"text":"這個必要時都已經因為債權人他也覺得他不要跟你爭議啊就很簡單嘛 你解約金 保障基金多少我要了就走嘛今天是真的是說有很多的債權人被一個可惡的債務人用保單倒債 逃債之後他們來跟法律請求訴訟嗎其實不是啊實務上的狀況我們看到前面的案件量來自於保險銀行的我們看到最前面齁有多少件銀行的是40萬件欸"},{"start":536.618,"end":554.786,"text":"然後呢,資產管理公司的結緣,18萬件耶什麼叫資產管理公司?就討債公司嘛他拿了一些不良債權之後,他只要查一查對不對,跟授權公司繳了一筆費用他就可以調到這些債務人的所有的資料了嘛我每張保單拿回個5萬要不要?"},{"start":555.748,"end":572.785,"text":"可是對眾多的被保險人、眾多的受益人產生這麼大的衝擊這就是我們今天立法院要解決的問題啊所以我今天也很難有個結論啊我聽了這麼多修者專家都講得很有道理我覺得回過頭來思考我們要解決的是量的問題"},{"start":573.939,"end":595.207,"text":"未來的法條的設計怎麼樣讓這個量能夠回復它應有的量所以包括舉證責任反轉包括債權人的請求應該是回復到個案橫著的方式而不是用通案解讀的方式讓債權人一些不同的債權人輕易的都可以用這個保單解讀的方式來要他的金錢利益"},{"start":596.067,"end":607.215,"text":"那同樣的保險局今晚會這邊要思考保險公司的經營他的保單的生計層出不窮我們有辦法去避免保險公司推出了逃債保單嗎很難啊所以我們怎麼樣去訂定原則將各位學者專家的意見我們整個條文當中我覺得我的目的就是一個減量怎麼樣"},{"start":624.165,"end":645.863,"text":"讓規劃處理流程出境案件減量我想這也是司法院也熱見的也是我們授權工會所熱見的也相信是我們修改這個法我們不要去抵觸一些基本的法理原則後我們所要達到的實際目的以上 謝謝好 謝謝嘉賓對保險法的一個投入跟努力那接著我們請人壽保險商業工會"}]}},{"id":"159371","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159371","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b830cec58431e976da405788fab8fe149e9ba850061ce77509855b1c4d5317d4a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:23:33 - 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謝謝主席剛剛一輪這樣子聽下來這個應該是從上一個會期其實我們都一直不斷地在討論就是延逸跟重啟的這樣子的一個問題上個會期其實我都已經有提到了這個藍白的版本從之前就一直說是執政黨錯誤的能源政策導致所以只要法規上說不行我就要用巨嬰式的修法把它修到可以為止但是我們剛剛其實聽了很多的專家學者"},{"start":35.832,"end":59.925,"text":"也特別提到當全世界的核能占比是全球目前都在下降當中連同日本從福島核災之後他們也在重新的考量究竟核電的存放的一些問題那當這個安全為首要我們跟日本是一樣的地處在所謂的地震的斷層的這樣子的一個重要的一個位置上面"},{"start":60.665,"end":76.28,"text":"到底安全大家把它放在哪裡只顧經濟不顧安全難道是我們要重啟核電最重要的一個這樣子的考量嗎如果這個考量沒有放在第一位為什麼又要重啟核電"},{"start":77.521,"end":99.918,"text":"那我再次的強調目前核三廠二號機是台灣最後一座運轉中的核電機組那也預計在五月要除役台灣的能源發展即將要邁入新的一個階段那剛剛有提到福島核災之後其實老舊核電廠不研議曾經會是台灣的所有的共識"},{"start":100.658,"end":112.889,"text":"包含民間包含我們中央那但是在過去這個14年已經過去了國民黨的立場這個著是今非這14年來其實有很多的社會公民的意見"},{"start":114.281,"end":132.039,"text":"也為所謂的台灣的環境永續要付諸努力但是呢他們在去年這一整年一直不斷的在重提這個話題將把所有大家在為環境永續的努力全部一筆勾銷再次退回原點"},{"start":133.24,"end":147.28,"text":"那這次的這樣子的一個修法呢第一不但不尊重核安管制的一個作業第二也可以迴避了外界對於所謂的老舊核電廠的安全疑慮以及核能安全高放廠的"},{"start":148.482,"end":150.605,"text":"高放長紙的整個設計條例還沒有進展低放儲置的選紙的問題也還沒有突破所以我們怎麼樣能夠讓所謂的已經除役的合廠能夠再研議再重啟"},{"start":165.706,"end":179.889,"text":"我想藍白陣營不能把這樣子的一個政治責任以及對於台灣的核能的用電的安全轉租到我們的下一代讓下一代去承擔這是非常不負責任的一個做法"},{"start":181.665,"end":209.304,"text":"講到所謂的老舊的核電廠是不是研議及就章你們有沒有削弱核安的一個機制根據現行的一個法規借領的核電廠必須在執照到期之前的5到15年要提出申請也就是目的要讓主管機關有充足的時間去確認安全無虞的狀況之下才能夠再來談是不是能夠研議但是我們看到以民眾黨的版本為例"},{"start":211.685,"end":216.269,"text":"原本呢5到15年的安全檢查被壓縮到只剩下1到6個月等於縮短了90%到98%的時間就算剛剛有人提到所謂的美國的核管會他們在累積多年研議審查經驗過後他們最新的審查的流程仍然需要18個月就是一年半的時間我們急救張的做法"},{"start":238.089,"end":265.025,"text":"能夠這樣子玩這樣子的修法的遊戲嗎再來提到所謂的國民黨委員所提出的一個版本就是核電廠的運營的這個年限跟安全的審查是毫無界限可言所以剛剛就像我講的這巨嬰式的修法法規上說不行我就把它修到我認為時間可以為止這是一種負責任的做法嗎另外再提到所謂的老舊核電廠的隱憂"},{"start":267.406,"end":286.16,"text":"因為在這個月的6號核三廠的二號機其實發生了火警那我想這個老舊的核電廠在安全的顧慮上其實也都需要我們大家來重視因為隨著所謂的機組設備的一個老化事故頻傳"},{"start":287.441,"end":305.683,"text":"在這個時候要提到所謂的核電廠要研議要重啟我們到底把安全放在哪裡那不論是核電要處理還是要研議核廢料處理的一個問題到目前為止其實沒有一個人能夠說的準到目前為止其實大家是不是都還在迴避這樣的問題"},{"start":307.825,"end":328.044,"text":"合一合二廠的乾式儲存設置延宕了多年台電也坦言說這不是技術性的一個卡關合一廠拖了11年才獲核准合二廠則拖了9年才開始動工那麼乾式儲存設施呢算是一種過渡的一個方案並不是最終的儲置廠"},{"start":328.925,"end":350.769,"text":"那研議將增加有更多的核廢料處理不了現有的一個問題所以我們是不是為下一代又埋下了不負責任的行為這樣子的一個修法的一個狀況那目前全國有九成的所謂的低放廢料仍然是放在所謂的核電廠跟蘭嶼部分的儲存庫的執照分別是在112年到116年之間要到期到底這些核廢料"},{"start":357.21,"end":382.224,"text":"要何去何從沒有人回答這個問題之前就要來討論所謂的核能核電廠是不是要重啟是不是要研議大家都覺得好像我們用核電會降低電費但是都沒有把很多的成本跟其他的重要的一個關鍵我舉例來說台電在2014年記得是2014年現在已經是2025年了"},{"start":387.216,"end":408.746,"text":"他們評估光是研議最少在2014年他們出估就需要580億而今11年過去了物價跟成本難道都不調整嗎都不用考慮嗎還不用再算3到5年的電廠體檢的一些支出所以大家不斷的在討論說因為電價要調漲"},{"start":412.048,"end":433.657,"text":"因為電價調漲我們要要求民生會被影響所以這個經濟也會被影響所以我們要來重啟核電但是國民黨民眾黨他們沒有說的是總預算在台電的補助的部分你們刪了一千億呀這一千億"},{"start":434.918,"end":444.704,"text":"後來要來轉嫁把安全的問題丟給下一代要來強調核能要重啟這不是巨嬰那什麼是巨嬰呢以上 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麻煩請部長陳英文好部長好 因為您上任以來本席有發現這段時間勞動部的政策好像大部分我們的觀察是左院長在對外發布的機率比較高"},{"start":34.182,"end":54.817,"text":"那我從來也很少就是說看到說有哪一家媒體有提到就是說部長自己對外說明這個所主政的勞動部將有這個什麼重大的這個計畫或改變例如說國定假日要增加勞退要提高那有條件的開放外籍勞工從事服務業等等"},{"start":56.118,"end":79.017,"text":"甚至是說像台中百貨公司氣爆事故的救援跟慰問傷患我們看到的大部分都是卓院長在指示優先照顧傷者保障勞工權益 盡速調查事故原因等等我想這些很多行政院在發布集都要說明"},{"start":80.198,"end":99.966,"text":"呃感覺就是說勞團跟工商團體呃對於這個勞動部的這個角色溝通的這個管道就是好像比較弱一點這是有一些奇怪就感覺上有些奇怪然後那反而就是說對於在我們會比較常看到就是過去對於勞動部常有一些需要"},{"start":102.067,"end":120.097,"text":"這個補破網的工作 有很多的報導金句 例如說我不吃這一套啦 不用恭喜我啦 就按基金用途改革進行改革進行式等等 或者是說沒動機跟理由迴避這些金句其實大家都反而非常的耳熟能詳 這個報導是看到蠻多的那"},{"start":124.66,"end":151.337,"text":"再來我想要請教就是說部長接任之初喔特別卓院長有給您三個任務請教請問你還記得嗎第一個當然是處理霸凌的問題然後再來一個是處理部內的霸凌整頓的問題然後再來包括是希望能夠提出一個完整的勞工的政策然後也希望做出一些制度的改革"},{"start":152.21,"end":177.255,"text":"我想比較還原院長所用的文字就是說穩定勞動部內部同仁的情緒這個是他有講的那我想要請教就是說內部同仁情緒目前都穩定了嗎當然我們這段時間還是會有一些相關的申訴可是我們就是透過該處理的就去處理該面對就面對"},{"start":178.611,"end":198.833,"text":"我想這個內部同仁的情緒應該不只不單止就是之前的這個謝怡榮的事件應該還有很多可能有些被揭露有些在調查中有些是在進行中不為人知的我想這些情緒不曉得部長有沒有關注到"},{"start":199.802,"end":220.595,"text":"如果有相關的問題的話我想都可以提出來我想這個是很重要的第一個第一件事情部長有這樣提那再來就是要能夠健全友善合理的職場然後讓所有的勞工在安全環境中為國人效力那請問現在大家勞工們都安全了嗎"},{"start":222.365,"end":237.115,"text":"所以這部分我想昨天講當時的意思是就是針對我們要求治安法那針對職場霸凌的機制要來把它法制化這部分我們正在當然在進行中然後目前草案已經進入到最後的收尾的階段"},{"start":237.355,"end":264.172,"text":"我想這個部分大家都一直也都跟部長一直在努力那第三個就是在國家發展過程中對於所有產業人民的需求要提出完整的這個勞工政策那我想請教就是說目前這個部長主要你現在在推動的主要的政策是有哪些然後協助你擬定政策的這些核心人物又是哪些核心人物對"},{"start":268.576,"end":283.088,"text":"我現在是勞動部長當然我就是要對這些事情負責倒不是什麼核心人物不核心人物的問題那協助你這個就是說擬定決策啦就是的這些人當然部內的同仁很重要就是部內的同仁的"},{"start":284.91,"end":300.584,"text":"部內的同仁也包括我們其實相關的政策也會諮詢專家學者包括產業先包括勢勞工團體那我再請教部長就是您這三個月沒有築密的歲月裡有沒有好好珍惜自己"},{"start":305.117,"end":333.204,"text":"因為我去查過這個所有的部會很不幸的我沒有找到有任何一個部會的主任秘書一直可以懸缺三個月以上那我是很擔心啦就是說這個我倒要問問就是說勞動部你們這個內部的你們這些資深官員難道你們都不願意擔任部長的主秘嗎你們在幹什麼"},{"start":336.892,"end":354.008,"text":"我覺得我們這些相關重要的職缺確實我們有補了一些然後我覺得找到很不錯很適當的人選那可是也有一些持續的在找到在接觸然後在詢問中那我自己心裡也蠻急的"},{"start":355.089,"end":382.768,"text":"所以看起來部長蠻嚴格就是您的標準也真的很高這個是好事啦但是三個月的歲月那我們其實都很關心也特別我們過去也都是同事就是說部長是屬於這個輕壯派的部長但現在就是說以在卓內閣的這個放眼望去部長應該算是最年輕的應該是吧"},{"start":385.356,"end":414.617,"text":"我沒有去問因為有人已經不在了所以你應該是最年輕的那你跟這些可以就是說在輩分上是可以作為您的這個叔叔阿姨輩的這些高階文官那高階文官常常就是高學歷又經驗豐富那部長你如何去領導管理他們然後讓他們看見說你的這個能力然後可以信任你"},{"start":416.189,"end":433.072,"text":"因為我們其實都是會很擔心就是說也怕你在勞動部裡面被欺負啊然後或者被蒙蔽而不自知甚至被誤導那這個就是在政策的決策上就會發生很大的問題這個是我們擔心的沒有被欺負的問題我可以很肯定的"},{"start":434.588,"end":453.34,"text":"好沒有這個問題這是好事因為如果有人欺負你我們也會幫忙修理他幫忙導正那但是你如果有被蒙蔽的時候我們想幫忙就未必幫得上忙了這是我才我才就是本性比較"},{"start":454.656,"end":466.384,"text":"真正擔心的事情我覺得我們會把這個諮詢的管道盡量的多元然後來聽大家的意見那事實上不管最後的什麼決策我都是要負責的"},{"start":467.892,"end":488.825,"text":"我覺得有一些決策如果錯誤了你嘴巴講說你可以負責但是影響到很多勞工的權益的時候你嘴巴講你可以負責實際上你是沒有辦法負責的我必須要在這裡做這樣提醒雖然我今天的口氣很溫和但是呢我想有些問題是瑞麗的"},{"start":490.786,"end":504.642,"text":"所以我做這樣子的提醒那至於哪些部分被蒙蔽我想後續我還會再跟你持續溝通因為你如果繼續被蒙蔽那院長交付你的任務你就沒有辦法完成"},{"start":506.184,"end":528.345,"text":"那最近來進入一個實質的問題最近這個職場霸凌的案件還是層出不窮那以最近這個台大醫院某病房的護理站的例子似乎要認定成立了那實務上非常的不容易你們自己北分署的案子也是部長自己親自召集組成有公信力的這些外部委員那最後才能通過的嗎"},{"start":529.286,"end":553.212,"text":"好那而且是在責損一位部長之後然後才被認定成立喔所以部長你也才有機會坐上這個位置那我要請教的是說被霸凌的受害者如果因此罹患精神疾病算不算職業災害算不算這應該算了好你講的"},{"start":555.666,"end":559.053,"text":"这个要经过专业医学的专业认定对"},{"start":559.548,"end":588.994,"text":"好我想是這樣啦你的回答也沒錯就是畢竟但是這10年來其實大概只有認定25件而已我提供這個數據給部長參考那再來未來即將制定的這個霸凌專章是在他是很奇妙的他是長在職安法裡面那這是不是表示就是說勞動檢查機構將負責未來的這個霸凌調查跟檢查講到這裡我先請教部長就是說調查跟檢查的差別在哪裡"},{"start":591.221,"end":608.656,"text":"這當然不一樣對 差別在哪裡檢查是對於我們的很多的防治的做法有沒有做到位必須進行檢查那調查當然就是進入到個案上面那到底發生的事情是什麼進行調查這當然是很不一樣所以其實一個是就是事前的預防跟事後的調查當然"},{"start":610.197,"end":637.56,"text":"那再來我要提醒就是說某事業單位的技術長這個新聞被董事長殺害死亡那因為他在他的離職信當中有提及到就是說他在職場上是有被霸凌的狀況所以依據職安法已經進行了勞檢那過去你們的執行裡面並沒有要求就是這個勞檢介入霸凌的調查但是呢你們北分署的案子跟這個"},{"start":638.94,"end":649.464,"text":"新北的勞檢處也都全部介入他都介入了那這表示就是說那這個將來地方跟中央有可能是不同調的"},{"start":651.061,"end":678.299,"text":"所以法令要怎麼定是至關重要那不要造成說將來各縣市就各吹各的調那因為如果說這個事業單位的調查認為霸凌不成立而勞檢調查認定成立的時候部長認為怎麼辦我可以再舉一個例子就是說因為我是想問說那霸凌專章到底能不能處理這一塊因為我來舉這個例子"},{"start":679.099,"end":701.573,"text":"嗯 就是職安署如果就說好啦職安署內部的某約顧的同仁被公務人員的同仁霸凌然後勞檢員就是要去調查但是勞檢員又受雇於職安署那你們到底要怎麼處理這些狀況"},{"start":703.362,"end":718.804,"text":"跟委員說明剛才講到勞檢的人力他處理的比較不是直接的所謂的調查這個勞檢的部分比方說像新北市的介入他比較是去查他在職場霸凌的問題或者是不法侵害問題上面有沒有做到預防"},{"start":720.356,"end":746.947,"text":"那調查的部分還會有調查該有的人力所以這部分會是不太一樣的那當然接下來我們是希望如果治安法的修法有霸凌反霸凌防治專章之後這些都有相關的機制上面的規範對啊那好啦即便是調查沒有預防那你們這些勞檢員要去調查自己的這個顧用他們的人這個治安署有沒有做到預防"},{"start":748.072,"end":773.901,"text":"那這個也是另外一個問題啊所以我點出來這樣問題也沒有錯嘛你就是球員兼裁判自己調查自己啊如果涉及到的是這個機構裡面的最高負責人的話當然就設計上面我們會是希望有再由上級機關來做調查就又要就是所以這個專章所以我才清風法也是這樣子啊就是如果"},{"start":775.294,"end":796.079,"text":"這個最高負責人是行為人的話那你不太能夠在這個機構只能自己負責我想今天今天我剛提出的這些問題就是一個善意的提醒因為我們畢竟現在就是我們即將要來處理制定這個霸凌專長所以我大概提出這個做以上提醒好那請你們注意謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1482,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時35分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳瑩委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。您上任以來，這段時間就我們的觀察，勞動部的政策好像大部分是卓院長在對外發布的機率比較高，且我也很少看到有哪一家媒體有提到，部長自己對外說明主政的勞動部將有什麼重大的計畫或改變，例如說國定假日要增加、勞退要提高、有條件的開放外籍勞工從事服務業等等，甚至像臺中百貨公司氣爆事故的救援跟慰問傷患，我們看到的大部分都是卓院長在指示優先照顧傷者、保障勞工權益、儘速調查事故原因等等。針對這些行政院對外的發布及說明，讓勞團跟工商團體感覺勞動部的這個角色及溝通管道好像比較弱了點，感覺上有些奇怪。過去我們會比較常看到的是，勞動部常有一些需要補破網的工作，有很多的報導金句，例如說：「我不吃這一套」、「不用恭喜我啦」、「就安基金用途改革進行式」等等，或者如「沒動機跟沒理由迴避」這些金句，其實我們反而非常地耳熟能詳，這類的報導是滿多的。再來，我要請教的是，部長接任之初，卓院長有特別給您三項任務，請問您還記得嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個當然是處理部內罷凌、整頓的問題，再來是希望能提出一個完整的勞工政策，也希望做出一些制度的改革。"],["陳委員瑩：我想要還原一下院長所用的文字，就是穩定勞動部內部同仁的情緒，這是院長有講到的。我想要請教，目前內部同仁的情緒都穩定了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這段時間以來當然還是有一些相關的申訴，可是我們該處理的就去處理，該面對的就面對。"],["陳委員瑩：我想內部同仁的情緒應該不單指之前謝宜容的事件，應該還有很多，可能有一些被揭露，有一些在調查中，有一些是在進行中而不為人知的。這些情緒不曉得部長有沒有關注到？"],["洪部長申翰：如果有相關問題的話，我想都可以提出來，我們都可以來處理。"],["陳委員瑩：我想這個是很重要的，這是第一件事情，院長有這樣提。再來就是要能夠健全友善合理的職場，然後讓所有的勞工在安全的環境中為國人效力。請問現在勞工們都安全了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：關於這部分，我想當時卓院長的意思就是針對我們要修職安法，針對職場霸凌的機制要把它法制化。這部分我們當然是在進行中，目前草案已經進入最後的收尾階段。"],["陳委員瑩：我想這個部分大家跟部長也都一直在努力。第三個，在國家發展過程中，對於所有產業、人民的需求，要提出完整的勞工政策。那我想請教部長，目前你在推動的主要政策有哪些？協助你擬定政策的這些核心人物又是哪些人？"],["洪部長申翰：核心人物？"],["陳委員瑩：對。"],["洪部長申翰：我現在是勞動部長，當然就是要對這些事情負責，倒不是什麼核心人物不核心人物的問題。"],["陳委員瑩：那協助你擬定決策的這些人有……"],["洪部長申翰：當然部內同仁很重要。"],["陳委員瑩：就是部內同仁？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["陳委員瑩：主管？"],["洪部長申翰：部內同仁。相關政策也會諮詢專家學者，包括產業、甚至包括勞工團體，都在持續。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。","那我再請教部長，您在這三個月沒有主秘的歲月裡有沒有好好珍惜自己？我去查過所有部會，很不幸的，我沒有找到任何一個部會的主任秘書可以一直懸缺3個月以上。我是很擔心啦！對於這點，我倒要問問勞動部這些內部資深官員，難道你們都不願意擔任部長的主秘嗎？你們在幹什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，對於這些相關重要的職缺，我們確實補了一些，我覺得找到很不錯、很適當的人選，可是也有一些持續在接觸、在詢問中，我自己心裡也滿急的。"],["陳委員瑩：看起來，部長滿嚴格，也就是說，您的標準也真的很高，這是好事啦！但是3個月的歲月……好。我們其實都很關心，特別是我們過去也都是同事。部長是屬於青壯派的部長，現在以卓內閣放眼望去，部長應該算是最年輕的。應該是吧？"],["洪部長申翰：我沒有去問欸！"],["陳委員瑩：因為有人已經不在了，所以你應該是最年輕的。你跟這些在輩分上可以做為您叔叔、阿姨的高階文官共事，而高階文官常常是高學歷又經驗豐富，部長如何領導、管理他們，讓他們看見你的能力、可以信任你？因為我們其實都很擔心、也怕你在勞動部裡面被欺負啊！或者被蒙蔽而不自知，甚至被誤導，在政策的決策上就會發生很大的問題，這是我們擔心的。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我沒有被欺負的問題。我可以很肯定的，沒有這個問題。"],["陳委員瑩：好，這是好事，如果有人欺負你，我們也會幫忙修理他、幫忙導正。但是如果是你被蒙蔽的時候，我們想幫忙就未必幫得上忙了，這才是本席真正比較擔心的事情。"],["洪部長申翰：我們會讓諮詢的管道儘量多元、聽大家的意見。事實上，不管最後有什麼決策，我都是要負責的，所以我不會覺得有那麼簡單地讓誰蒙蔽了我。"],["陳委員瑩：我覺得有一些決策如果錯誤，影響到很多勞工權益的時候，就算你嘴巴講你可以負責，實際上你是沒有辦法負責的，我必須在這裡做這樣的提醒。雖然我今天的口氣很溫和，但是呢！我想有些問題是銳利的，所以我做這樣的提醒。至於哪些部分被蒙蔽，我後續還會再跟你持續溝通。你如果繼續被蒙蔽，對於院長交付給你的任務，你就沒有辦法完成。","來！進入一個實質的問題。職場霸凌的案件還是層出不窮啦！以最近臺大醫院某病房護理站的例子，似乎要認定成立了，但實務上非常不容易。你們自己北分署的案子也是部長親自召集、組成這些有公信力的外部委員，最後才能通過的嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員瑩：而且是在折損一位部長之後才被認定成立喔！所以部長你也才有機會坐上這個位子。我要請教的是，被霸凌的受害者如果因此罹患精神疾病，算不算職業災害？算不算？"],["洪部長申翰：這應該算喔！當然要經過職業醫學的專業認定。"],["陳委員瑩：我想是這樣啦！你的回答也沒錯，但是這十年來，其實大概只有認定25件而已，我提供這個數據給部長參考。","再來，未來即將制定的霸凌專章是很奇妙的，這是放在職安法裡面，這是不是表示勞動檢查機構將負責未來的霸凌調查跟檢查？講到這裡，我先請教部長，調查跟檢查的差別在哪裡？"],["洪部長申翰：當然不一樣啊！"],["陳委員瑩：對，那麼差別在哪裡？"],["洪部長申翰：檢查是指對於很多防治做法有沒有做到位必須進行檢查，那調查當然就是進入個案，針對發生的實情到底是什麼進行調查，當然是很不一樣的。"],["陳委員瑩：所以其實是事前的預防跟事後的調查？"],["洪部長申翰：當然！對。"],["陳委員瑩：再來，我要提醒的是有一個新聞，就是某事業單位的技術長被董事長殺害死亡。因為他在離職信當中提及他在職場上有被霸凌的狀況，所以依據職安法已經進行勞檢。過去在你們的指引裡並沒有要求勞檢介入霸凌的調查，但對於你們北分署的案子，新北勞檢處也都全部介入了，這就表示將來地方跟中央有可能是不同調的。所以法令要怎麼定至關重要，不要造成將來各縣市各吹各的調。如果事業單位的調查認為霸凌不成立，而勞檢調查認定成立的時候，部長認為該怎麼辦？","我可以再舉一個例子，因為我是想問霸凌專章到底能不能處理這一塊。我來舉這個例子：如果職安署內部某約僱同仁被公務人員的同仁霸凌，勞檢員要去調查，但勞檢員又受僱於職安署，你們到底要怎麼處理這些狀況？"],["洪部長申翰：剛才講到勞檢人力處理的比較不是所謂的直接調查，在勞檢的部分，比方說新北市的介入比較偏向調查在職場霸凌問題或不法侵害問題上有沒有做到預防，至於調查的部分還會有調查該有的人力，所以這部分會是不太一樣的。當然，接下來我們希望在職安法修法，有霸凌防治專章之後，對這些相關機制都有規範。"],["陳委員瑩：好啦！即便是調查、沒有預防，你們這些勞檢員若要調查自己的……僱用他們的人，職安署有沒有做到預防？這也是另外一個問題啊！所以我點出這樣的問題也沒有錯嘛！就是球員兼裁判、自己調查自己啊！而且還不許調查長官。"],["洪部長申翰：如果涉及的是該機構裡面的最高負責人，當然，就設計上，我們會希望再由上級機關調查。"],["陳委員瑩：就是又要……所以這個專章……"],["洪部長申翰：性工法也是這樣子啊！如果最高負責人是行為人的話，那就不太能夠在這個機構之內自己負責。"],["陳委員瑩：我剛剛提出這些問題，就是一個善意的提醒，畢竟我們現在即將處理、制定這個霸凌專章嘛！所以我大概提出以上提醒，請你們注意。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","本日會議詢答全部結束，現在作以下決定：","一、報告及詢答完畢。","二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於2週內以書面答復。委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","現在休息20分鐘，休息完之後再繼續開會。","休息（13時49分）","繼續開會（14時12分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案 19案；二、邀請\n勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算關於勞動部主管部分","agenda_id":"1142901_00005"}}},{"id":"159408","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159408","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b837a8b63854d947dfcea595bacfac0e47b046c84a64030c6dcb601fca392b1a975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:12:16 - 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楊群發言 邀請主委劉主委楊委員早主委好"},{"start":21.618,"end":43.893,"text":"台積電董監事經理人持股的明細當中我們可以很顯示看出國發基金是台積電單一的最大股東它持有是6.38%的一個股份那麼近期台積電也宣布擴大對美國的投資計畫"},{"start":45.194,"end":74.6,"text":"引發了外界對於技術外流及國家安全的一個關注那麼主委你也曾經談過你要堅持的是最新的技術不會過去對不對你也說最關鍵的技術不准過去對不對那同時你還有一個三大原則之一也就是國家安全為優先是不是如此"},{"start":76.286,"end":96.53,"text":"是的到目前為止你仍舊是依這個原則嗎是不是是的這個我跟郭部長彼此之間有共識彼此之間的共識所以我們統計只有統計到113年的前三季那麼台積電的股利收入是高達247.9億元這是在113年的第三季那如果整年度來算應該可以達到"},{"start":106.771,"end":126.996,"text":"所以对国家的贡献可以说财政贡献是非常的好但是在这样的一个情况之下我要请教主委台积电的技术领先性是其竞争优势的关键即使遵守着"},{"start":128.156,"end":151.808,"text":"主委你對外說的也就是赴美投資N-1的規定仍可以導致美國半導體製造業能力的一個提升這是外界現在都在看的一個方向那進而也削弱了台灣在全球半導體供應鏈中的一個地位因為是我們的護國神山所以國防會你認為"},{"start":156.69,"end":182.736,"text":"在台積電赴美投資N-1就能夠保證保護台灣的角色地位嗎請主委說明我跟委員報告台積電在南京設廠20年他沒有任何機密外洩反倒是我們可以看到其他的公司反而有控告一些員工把機密帶到對岸去"},{"start":183.976,"end":205.075,"text":"所以機密會不會外洩完全在一家公司的管控做得好不好那我的了解台積電現在內部所有的電腦是沒有硬碟的也沒有USB的它完全是在雲端裡面它的資料是保護得非常完整所以我對台積電做技術關鍵技術的保密我是目前是信心是很高的"},{"start":205.583,"end":228.033,"text":"信心是很高所以換句話說我們還是維持您所說的N-1這個情形就像微軟在這邊有研發中心IBM有研發中心可是他們從來沒有辦法我們從來拿不到因為每一個企業都有自己的機密管理的能力當然因為這個是他吃飯的最基本他不可能把他的飯碗砸掉"},{"start":229.261,"end":252.276,"text":"不可能把那個範圍砸掉再請主委針對本席的提問也就是說目前政府告訴我們的是以N-1的這個方向跟立場是不是還是維持目前我們是維持的目前是維持本席就要提問也就是政府的立場政府的立場還是N-1的這個立場嗎是的是的喔好所以因此呢本席要因為大家"},{"start":260.061,"end":286.448,"text":"對台積電從開始到現在大家都號稱是護國神山所以我們仍舊希望怎麼樣能夠保護台灣讓台灣在整個的這個立場上還是都是佔非常重要的角色這是我相信所有的國人大家都很期待我們也希望政府的立場說的跟執行的是一致的 是嗎是的"},{"start":288.429,"end":311.127,"text":"接下來本席要請教我們針對於整個產業因為主委你也非常清楚本席不斷的在跟你討論我們除了AI我們除了高科技那最重要的我們台灣的傳統產業尤其本席來自於中部地區我們的機械手工具機工具機零組件"},{"start":312.328,"end":329.466,"text":"這是也是台灣非常重要的護國神山尤其我們在組裝方面都能夠有較低的成本去跟世界競爭這也是為我們國家爭取了很多的外匯那所以沒有理由不照顧他們本期跟你討論"},{"start":330.687,"end":341.957,"text":"2月13號的時候提出的2025年經濟展望的報告當中我們看到主要機構它測試我們今年的經濟成長大概介於在2.5%到3.42%那主計總數說可以超過3%以上但根據我們過去去年工具機的產業它的是衰退將近兩成"},{"start":358.43,"end":365.996,"text":"營建業受政策及資金的影響 開工的量是萎縮的所以許多的中小企業根本沒有辦法生存不僅如此 我們的內需市場比較低迷比如說我們的餐飲 零售業也面臨著消費力不足的困境"},{"start":380.186,"end":400.277,"text":"所以GDP整體雖然有成長 但是它是集中在少數高科技的產業其他的產業 尤其傳統產業 它的通貨指數是在節節的上升所以本席要請教 國發會您是產業政策的總指揮"},{"start":401.317,"end":405.141,"text":"產業政策總指揮面臨到AI的產業熱度的高漲但是我們傳統產業卻陷入寒冬這樣子的一個產業結構的極端發展已經嚴重的影響到整個經濟性的穩定度政府你有什麼樣的對策呢請教"},{"start":424.169,"end":446.096,"text":"這個部分我們有幾個幾個方向在跟產業溝通當然最主要我們還是要仰賴經濟部一起合作那第一個部分就是通路的部分我們有跟那個工具機協會那個有稍微那個那個陳我們有稍微有談到我們希望協助他們去做通路的建設"},{"start":446.956,"end":470.203,"text":"那舉個例子,現在供給機成長速度比較快的市場在印度那我們怎麼樣協助他們設立一個通路讓台灣的產業可以賣進去第二個是高質化的改變,包括美國通路的掌握其實我們都有一系列在探討那我們也希望協助他們進入一個規模化然後更具規模競爭力在研發跟在技術上面"},{"start":470.803,"end":484.052,"text":"那另外我們也討論到怎麼樣去讓協助他們在我們現在主要的控制機台是來自日本跟德國怎麼樣進入盡快的到國產化來做這個事情因為對岸也在做這件事情所以你現在講到了這個部分本席要提醒"},{"start":486.994,"end":504.748,"text":"像我們這一次在南港展出我們的這個工具機手工具機機械類別以及零組件大家非常的用心我們接單的成績非常好這是我們電機的一個平台但是我們憂心的是什麼關稅問題我們更憂心到匯率問題"},{"start":510.232,"end":527.864,"text":"這兩項是國防會你身為產業的總指揮官你必須要去跟相關單位去協助解決我們產業所碰到的重要問題關鍵點因為匯率不是我產業自己可以去決定"},{"start":529.946,"end":537.451,"text":"關稅也不是我廠家可以自己去決定那他需要靠政府所以政府你到底在我們整個產業的這個比例上面你要怎麼樣"},{"start":543.567,"end":560.012,"text":"提拨百分之多少來給我們的傳統產業來協助政策方向是有但是我們自己要努力可是我們碰到這非我所因素的條件是政府必須要做產業的靠山嘛對不對"},{"start":561.152,"end":575.9,"text":"對 所以我們現在有出口的融資的補助協助他們在 不是補助 就是的協助那我們協助他們在融資上面出口的融資成本比較低的一些幫助讓他們在出口上面可以降低他的壓力"},{"start":576.36,"end":602.671,"text":"那我們會針對這一點我們再來加強看看有沒有什麼可以更好的方案本席希望聽到你精進的方案因為已經進入寒冬這是我們國家最重要的產業經濟命脈就業人口多數在這一環所以本席希望您給本席您將你精進的方案給本席你預計你一定要提升百分之多少來給我們傳統產業來協助他們"},{"start":606.072,"end":624.401,"text":"好的好不好好好那你大概多久時間可以給本席一個月內給你一個月內好那會提升比例嗎給我們的傳統產業我們會做一個整體的研究跟規劃我也會找經濟部一起來討論對然後朝提升的方向對不對"},{"start":627.095,"end":640.845,"text":"對 我們會怎麼樣強化好 那接下來最後一個議題本席每一年都要請問你但是我真的蠻憂心也就是針對於推動性平等的這個成效"},{"start":642.186,"end":663.741,"text":"我們看到勞動部的調查2024年的女性平均薪資327塊男性389 女性比男性要多工作58天才能夠達到男女全年薪資的相同因此同酬日2月27日 較去年只有增加兩天但是本席給你一個類別來作為討論"},{"start":667.723,"end":673.129,"text":"的範例 電子零組件的製造業為例 2020年的男性是668塊女性只有多少 諸位"},{"start":678.558,"end":702.251,"text":"393元他的相差41%在2023年以及2019年呢分別上升了1.9跟3.2%我請教主委在結果論來說我們男女同工不同酬的情況惡劣你國發會要怎麼樣去提升推動性別平等的一個成效請教主委"},{"start":704.337,"end":729.688,"text":"這個我可能要找我會來找那個勞動部來討論一下看看怎麼樣這到底細節是什麼原因我們針對原因來對你是整個產業的總指揮那你今天針對這個我們每一年都跟你討論同工不同酬女性的薪資差別那麼多"},{"start":731.206,"end":757.994,"text":"每一個部會的總total是由勞動部來調查那總政策應該在你的國防會所以我還是具體建議因為我每一年一定會提出這個議題但是我們看不到它的一個均衡性所以本期希望因為每一個勞動者都是我們非常重要的職場沒有理由讓女性跟男性差別這麼大"},{"start":759.215,"end":765.602,"text":"所以本席具體要求相關部會你是總領航者你必須要跟他們去討論怎麼樣讓男女能夠來做均權均衡才能夠達到整個產業勞動力的一個均衡嘛一個向上提升嘛"},{"start":779.836,"end":790.968,"text":"我來瞭解一下因為我自己待過八家公司再加上現在政府都沒有男女的薪資之別薪資就是薪資主委你講到這個問題實在太離譜了我們去理解一下對不對已經勞動部的數字調查告訴你你還說沒有"},{"start":799.175,"end":812.998,"text":"沒有我的意思是說我們要去找出他的真正核心問題點這個就對了核心問題點到底是在哪裡就我了解上市櫃公司也都沒有這樣的問題所以我們得把你現在在政府部門做事情"},{"start":814.025,"end":819.207,"text":"你有權利做政策的一個決定委員我必須講我不去了解問題的核心在哪裡我解不了問題當然這是你的職責啊我不能用通用性來看待對這是你的職責所以你要去了解為什麼每一年調查出來的資訊是如此"},{"start":834.016,"end":856.272,"text":"所以就是問題沒解決啊謝謝委員好不好你說你願意核心去了解我非常的認同你用心多久時間可以告訴我們好不好這個至少要兩個月啦因為我很細節的去看它你好好用心去把它了解原因我們現在能夠在你的任內真的解決這個問題嘛好不好好的好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":273,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時12分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：楊委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委好。在台積電董監事經理人持股明細當中，我們可以很明顯看出國發基金是台積電單一的最大股東，持有6.38%的股份，近期台積電也宣布擴大對美國的投資計畫，引發了外界對於技術外流及國家安全的關注。","主委，你也曾經談過，你堅持的是最新的技術不會過去，對不對？你也說最關鍵的技術不准過去，對不對？同時，三大原則之一還有一個，也就是國家安全為優先，是不是如此？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：到目前為止，你仍舊是依這個原則，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是，我跟郭部長彼此之間有共識。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是彼此之間的共識。所以我們只有統計到113年前三季，台積電的股利收入高達247.9億元，這是在113年第三季。如果整年度來算應該可以達到389億元，所以對國家的財政貢獻可以說非常好。但是在這樣一個情況之下，我要請教主委，台積電的技術領先性是其競爭優勢的關鍵，即使遵守主委你對外說的，也就是赴美投資N-1的規定，仍可以導致美國半導體製造業能力的提升，這是外界現在都在看的方向，進而也削弱臺灣在全球半導體供應鏈中的地位，因為它是我們的護國神山，所以國發會認為，台積電赴美投資N-1，就能夠保證、保護臺灣的角色地位嗎？請主委說明。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，台積電在南京設廠20年，沒有任何機密外洩，反倒是我們可以看到其他的公司控告一些員工把機密帶到對岸去，所以機密會不會外洩完全在於一家公司的管控做得好不好。據我的了解，台積電現在內部所有的電腦是沒有硬碟的、也沒有USB，它完全是在雲端裡面，它的資料保護非常完整，所以我對台積電做關鍵技術的保密，目前我的信心是很高的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：信心很高？所以換句話說，還是維持您所說的N-1？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個情形就像微軟在這邊有研發中心，IBM有研發中心，可是我們從來拿不到，因為每一個企業都有自己的機密管理能力。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這是它吃飯的最基本，它不可能把它的飯碗砸掉。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不可能把它的飯碗砸掉？再請主委針對本席的提問，也就目前政府告訴我們是以N-1的方向跟立場，是否還是維持？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前我們是維持的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前是維持？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席就要提醒……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：而且在技術上，台積電也做得到。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：也就是政府還是N-1的立場嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，因為大家對台積電從開始到現在都稱它是護國神山，所以我們仍舊希望怎麼樣能夠保護臺灣，讓臺灣在整個市場上都是占非常重要的角色，我相信所有的國人大家都很期待，我們也希望政府的立場，說的和執行的是一致的，是嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，接下來，本席要請教，針對於整個產業，因為主委你也非常清楚，本席不斷在跟你討論，除了AI、除了高科技，最重要的就是我們臺灣的傳統產業。本席來自於中部地區，我們的機械、手工具機、工具機、零組件，這些也是臺灣非常重要的護國神山。尤其我們在組裝方面都能夠有較低的成本去跟世界競爭，這也為我們國家爭取了很多的外匯，所以沒有理由不照顧他們。","本席跟你討論，2月13號提出的2025年經濟展望的報告當中，我們看到主要機構測試我們今年的經濟成長大概介於在2.5%到3.42%，主計總處說可以超過3%以上。但根據統計，去年工具機的產業衰退將近兩成，營建業受政策及資金的影響，開工量是萎縮的，所以許多中小企業根本沒有辦法生存。不僅如此，我們的內需市場比較低迷，比如餐飲、零售業也面臨消費力不足的困境，所以GDP整體雖然有成長，但它是集中在少數高科技的產業，其他的產業，尤其傳統產業的痛苦指數節節上升。","所以本席要請教，國發會是產業政策的總指揮，面臨到AI產業熱度的高漲，但是我們的傳統產業卻陷入寒冬，這樣子的產業結構極端發展，已經嚴重的影響到整個經濟性的穩定度，政府有什麼樣的對策呢？請教。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分，我們有幾個方向在跟產業溝通。當然最主要我們還是要仰賴經濟部一起合作，第一個就是通路的部分，我們有跟工具機協會稍微有談到，我們希望協助他們去做通路的建設，舉個例子，現在工具機成長速度比較快的市場在印度，我們怎麼樣協助他們設立一個通路，讓臺灣的產業可以賣進去。第二個是高值化的改變，包括美國通路的掌握，其實我們都有一系列在探討，我們也希望協助他們進入規模化，在研發跟技術上更具規模競爭力。另外，我們現在主要的控制機台是來自日本跟德國，我們也有討論到怎麼樣協助他們儘快進入到國產化，因為對岸也在做這件事情，我們有這一系列的探討……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，你現在講到的這個部分，本席要提醒，像這一次在南港展出的工具機、手工具機、機械類別以及零組件，大家非常的用心，接單的成績非常好，這是我們奠基的一個平台，但是我們憂心的是什麼？關稅問題，我們更憂心匯率問題，這兩項是國發會身為產業的總指揮官，你必須要跟相關單位去協助解決我們產業所碰到的重要問題的關鍵點。因為匯率不是產業自己可以去決定的，關稅也不是廠家可以自己去決定的，這需要靠政府！所以政府在整個產業上要提撥多少的比例來協助我們的傳統產業？政策方向是有，我們自己也要努力，可是我們碰到這些非我所能控制的因素條件，是政府必須要做產業的靠山，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，所以我們現在有出口融資的協助，給予他們出口融資成本比較低的一些幫助，在出口上面可以降低壓力，我們會針對這一點再來加強看看有沒有什麼更好的方案。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席希望聽到精進的方案，因為已經進入寒冬，這是我們國家最重要的經濟產業命脈，就業人口多數在這一環，所以本席希望您將您的精進方案給本席，你預計一定要提升百分之多少來給我們傳統產業，來協助他們，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你大概多久時間可以給本席？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：一個月內給你。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一個月內？好，那會提升比例給我們的傳統產業？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會做一個整體的研究跟規劃，我也會找經濟部一起來討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，然後朝提升的方向，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，看我們怎麼樣強化。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來最後一個議題本席每一年都要請問你，但是我真的滿憂心的。針對推動性別平等的成效，我們看到勞動部的調查，2024年的女性平均薪資327元，男性389元，女性需比男性多工作58天才能夠達到男女全年薪資相同，因此今年的同酬日為2月27日，較去年增加2天。但是本席給你一個類別來作為討論的範例，以電子零組件製造業為例，2024年男性是668元，女性只有393元，相差41%，較2023年以及2019年分別上升了1.9%跟3.2%。我請教主委，就結果論來說，男女同工不同酬的情況惡劣，國發會要怎麼樣去提升推動性別平等的成效？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我會找勞動部來討論一下，看看細節到底是什麼原因，我們針對原因分析以後來克服。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，你是整個產業的總指揮，我們每一年都跟你討論同工不同酬，女性的薪資相差男性那麼多，每一個部會的總total是由勞動部來調查，而總政策應該在國發會，所以我還是具體建議，因為我每一年一定會提出這個議題，但是我們看不到它的均衡性！因為每一個勞動者都是我們非常重要的資產，沒有理由讓女性跟男性差別這麼大。所以本席具體要求，你是總領航者，你必須要跟相關部會去討論，怎麼樣讓男女能夠均權、均衡，才能夠達到整個產業勞動力的均衡，並向上提升嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，我來了解一下，因為我自己待過8家公司，再加上現在政府，都沒有男女的薪資之別，薪資就是薪資，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，你講到這個問題實在太離譜了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們去理解一下到底背後……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：勞動部調查的數字已經告訴你，你還說沒有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有，我的意思是說我們要去找出它真正的核心問題點。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個就對了，核心問題點到底是在哪裡？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就我了解，上市櫃公司也都沒有這樣的問題，所以我們得把這個核心問題點找出來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在在政府部門做事情，你有權力做政策的決定……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我必須講，我不去了解問題的核心在哪裡我解不了問題，你要給我時間去了解。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，這是你的職責。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不能用通用性來看待，它一定是有問題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這是你的職責，所以你要去了解為什麼每一年調查出來的資訊是如此，所以就是問題沒解決啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員，我會把這個問題……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說你願意去了解核心問題，我非常認同你的用心，多久時間可以告訴我們？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個至少要兩個月，因為我要很細節地去看它。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你好好用心去了解原因，我們希望在你的任內真的能夠解決這個問題，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：現在請陳亭妃委員做詢答，陳亭妃委員詢答完休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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沒辦法做到那好 那沒關係這位是我們的市長跟委員報告我是代理署長原則上應該要先從源頭解決移工失聯的問題那這個部分剛剛部長也有提到我們會從改善移工的勞動條件好 沒關係移工失聯你這個錢你不能每年這樣子"},{"start":297.6,"end":312.566,"text":"那至於這個有關電付的這個收費的部分呢我們目前第一個是有加強罰則包括移工如果這個沒有這個你罰他他就是沒錢嘛所以然後本席在這邊再說一個很好笑的就是所以"},{"start":313.166,"end":328.031,"text":"他就是沒有錢所以呢都給他寫了說那我回去會還你錢的一個借據所以現在抽屜有一大堆兩億多有多少張所以本席最後因為時間到了本席建議啊你為什麼不提撥呢因為"},{"start":328.991,"end":340.857,"text":"移民署建議你們說要有這個保證金保證金可能會覺得剝削或者是他負擔不起沒關係那你就從他每個月每個月的薪資你一點一點提撥嘛提撥到你們算得出來嗎"},{"start":345.359,"end":370.974,"text":"就每一次每一個遣返回去大概要多少是一萬塊台幣還是八千塊連機票連相關你收容他的一些吃的飲食的問題你就提撥嘛你提撥到一個量你就停了嘛那也不是保證金問題你就慢慢提撥這樣可以做嗎假如說用提撥的方式如果會增加這個移工的經濟負擔的話在過往的經驗裡面可能會增加他失聯的機率"},{"start":371.957,"end":399.939,"text":"就一點點一點點累積所以你一個月提供他500塊增加移工他經濟的我說這是從過往的經驗來看增加他的經濟負擔的話就過往經驗可能會增加他失聯的機率他每個月可能就賺個幾萬塊那你500塊提撥500塊一個月一個月你一年多你大概就提撥完畢所以你這個500塊你覺得就增加他失聯的這點我"},{"start":401.46,"end":421.354,"text":"我覺得你們要不要考慮看看但是好沒關係我們可以整體的在思考如果我們的建議你覺得不好那你拿出更好的辦法不是讓我們國家資源一直流失一直流失我們各種方法我們都願意來思考但是這確實是一個相當困難相當有挑戰的問題"},{"start":422.014,"end":445.066,"text":"那你可以借鏡一下其他國家其他國家做得好的我們應該要效法嘛我們希望能夠從源頭上面來降低失聯的可能性這當然是我們現在在各種制度上設計上面我們必須優先來考慮的事情很好很好你的源頭如果可以降低我當然大家贊成但是失聯移工人數就一直增加"},{"start":445.866,"end":469.881,"text":"然後每年一直累積我們的就業安定基金都拿去給這些移工遣返回去這個是事實啊委員 剛才的建議我們可以再我們這可以再做思考可不可以多久可以給本席一個回覆你們可以盡量討論兩個月給你們或三個月你總是要拿出辦法來我們可以一個月給針對這些相關的做法的一些評估可以給委員好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1432,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（13時27分）謝謝主席，本席有請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：徐委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：洪部長好。您上任多久了？"],["洪部長申翰：三個多月。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您覺得對勞動部的相關業務慢慢熟悉了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然也必須要持續熟悉啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。您今天在業務報告第六大項裡面有特別提到「優化跨國勞動力聘僱管理制度」，那您知道現在這第六大項很大的一個問題是什麼？您知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對不起，業務報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我念給你啊，「優化跨國勞動力聘僱管理制度」，在這一個大業務的情況下，您知道現在臺灣存在最嚴重的問題是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：可能是移工的問題、移工管理的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以您知道目前失聯的移工人數有多少？"],["洪部長申翰：最新的數據應該是九萬多。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，九萬多，一直以來都居高不下，然後又破了9萬，之前八萬多就已經很多了。那我們都束手無策嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然我們跟內政部移民署……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係，因為我們時間有限，先稍等，本席今天……失聯移工問題等一下有時間再回頭過來談，現在失聯移工數有9萬833人，這是一個嚴重的系統問題，它進一步衍生的也是我們的治安問題，但是也使我們國家的資源流失，什麼資源流失呢？目前我們這些失聯移工這麼多，有些移工是我們要遣返他回他的國家，就是這些逃逸的移工，失聯移工就是逃逸移工，我們現在要把很多移工遣返回去，他沒有錢，然後就用了我們的什麼基金，您知道嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就安基金。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，就業安定基金，用了我們的就安基金，那過去四年的統計，這部分用掉了我們2億1,933萬，是收不回的，收不回的有兩億多。所以剛剛這麼多的委員在那邊說：哇！這個新手爸媽被刪掉了800萬，然後凍結了，你這個凍結的800萬或1,000萬當然是可以再解凍，可是這麼多年來，為了這個移工遣返的問題，你把就業安定基金拿來讓這些移工離開卻討不回來，你也沒有在制度上去更新，你也沒有去想辦法，這個錢你就這樣一直流失、一直流失，兩億多！你在那邊糾結幾百萬、幾百萬！所以本席要講的是……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這不是在糾結幾百萬，這是不同的項目……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，不同的項目……"],["洪部長申翰：我們都要盡力的做好，可是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在沒有請你回答。本席要強調的是，這個同樣都是人民的納稅錢，你這邊一直流失，國家資源一直流失，兩億多你不痛不癢，四年來沒有任何的方案，這個就是問題嘛！本席要講的就是，貪官永遠嫌預算少，但是清官才會……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我不接受把他講成是貪官，我完全不接受。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我不是在說你。我是在說一個現況，執政的……"],["洪部長申翰：但是你不要用貪官來形容，我不接受把他講成貪官。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，你不接受沒關係，執政荒誕失靈，責任推給在野，所以本席在這邊……"],["洪部長申翰：我們有做得更好的空間，但我不接受把他講成貪官。"],["徐委員欣瑩：針對這個兩億多，那麼多年來，你們現在有什麼作為？有什麼作為？"],["陳代理署長世昌：跟委員報告，目前這個部分我們當然應該要負擔這個費用，包括這個移工或是中心的部分……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，你身為部長都不知道，還要他來回答？本席可以告訴你，移民署也一直給你們意見，你們就一直回復表示沒辦法做到、沒辦法做到。好，那沒關係……這位是司長嗎？"],["陳代理署長世昌：跟委員報告，我是代理署長。原則上應該要先從源頭解決移工失聯的問題，這個部分剛剛部長也有提到，我們會從改善移工的勞動條件以及促進合法僱用來處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，但你不能每年這樣子讓錢一直流失嘛！"],["陳代理署長世昌：至於這個有關墊付遣返費用的部分，我們目前第一個是有加強罰則，包括移工如果這個部分沒有……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你罰他，他就是沒錢嘛！然後本席在這邊再說一個很好笑的，他就是沒有錢，所以都讓他寫了我回去以後會還你錢的借據，所以現在抽屜裡有一大堆，兩億多會有多少張？最後因為時間到了，本席建議，你為什麼不提撥呢？因為移民署建議你們說要有這個保證金，如果收保證金，可能會覺得有剝削或者是他負擔不起之虞，沒關係，那你就從他每個月的薪資中一點一點提撥嘛！你們算得出來嘛，就是每一次遣返一個回去大概要多少，是1萬塊臺幣還是8,000塊？連機票、連相關包括你收容他的一些飲食的部分，你就提撥嘛，你提撥到一個量就停了嘛，那也不是保證金問題，你就慢慢提撥，這樣可以做嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，比方說用提撥的方式，如果會增加移工的經濟負擔的話，在過往的經驗裡面可能會增加他失聯的機率。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就一點點、一點點累積嘛！所以你一個月提撥他500塊……"],["洪部長申翰：增加移工經濟的……我說這是從過往的經驗來看，如果增加他的經濟負擔的話，就過往經驗可能會增加他失聯的機率。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是啦！他每個月可能就賺個幾萬塊嘛！那你一個月提撥500塊，大概一年多就提撥完畢啦！所以就你說你覺得這個500塊會增加他失聯機率的這一點，我覺得你們要不要考慮看看？"],["洪部長申翰：當然我們可以整體來思考這件事情。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係，如果你覺得我們的建議不好，那請你拿出更好的辦法，而不是讓我們國家的資源一直流失、一直流失。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，各種方法我們都願意來思考，但是這確實是一個相當困難、相當有挑戰的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你可以借鏡一下其他國家，其他國家做得好的，我們應該要效法嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：我們希望能夠從源頭上面降低失聯的可能性，這當然是我們現在在各種制度設計上面必須優先考慮的事情。委員剛才的建議……"],["徐委員欣瑩：很好、很好，如果你的源頭可以降低，大家當然贊成，但是失聯移工人數就一直增加，然後每年一直累積，我們的就業安定基金都拿去用在這些移工的遣返，這個是事實啊！"],["洪部長申翰：委員剛才的建議，我們可以再思考。"],["徐委員欣瑩：多久可以給本席回復？你們可以儘量討論，給你們兩個月或三個月？你總是要拿出辦法來嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：針對這些相關的作法、評估，我們可以一個月給委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。謝謝部長。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請柯志恩委員，柯志恩委員、柯志恩委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","請陳瑩委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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請部長好 部長好想要請教您一下就是原鄉現在有很多的人都提到他的農業需要無人機那請你看一下他的理由"},{"start":32.389,"end":51.065,"text":"第一個是說解決農藥中毒的問題那第二個是說山區的坡度比較大第四期區那第三是平地無人機業者呢不願意上山第四個是可以創造原民的就業機會第五以上皆是部長"},{"start":56.042,"end":82.077,"text":"應該是以上解釋謝謝其實還不止這幾個理由還可以再舉好幾個部長您知不知道目前勞動部有沒有原住民無人機的資訊我目前是有幾個今年是一個就一個嗎部長您知不知道無人機執訊他大概要多久才能夠拿到最基礎的證照"},{"start":84.994,"end":108.681,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個部分的職業訓練是由這個訓練單位他所掌握他所要培訓的一個技能那個單元內容來去做所以這個部分目前的證照並不在我們所規定辦理訓練一定要具備的那個辦理條件好那我知道的是一到兩個月因為120個小時那部長我可能你不知道因為我本來也不知道"},{"start":110.615,"end":127.14,"text":"這個授訓完了之後他是拿到叫做基本級的操作證就是所謂的只能夠做空拍那如果說要離我剛才講的要能夠去做農業需要的這個噴這個藥的止飽劑"},{"start":131.201,"end":146.038,"text":"他其實是依照民航區他是主管機關他有他一定的規範那如果要能夠拿到是要拿到高級那至少要高級1B然後一直到高級2C所以也就是說"},{"start":147.039,"end":162.473,"text":"大概還要如果完全很通暢就是拿到基本證照隔一個月之後又去考證又順利通過隔一個月之後又去進階進階進階最快最快最順利最順利也要半年以上那這個狀況我為什麼特別要來提"},{"start":164.975,"end":189.268,"text":"因為根據我們的原住民主工作權保障法第15條他就是有特別提到說要依照原住民的一個需求然後呢去提供職業訓練的機會那我在這裡就常常很遺憾我拿這個中分數這應該是中分數的他的類別我們就可以看得到大概一般來講"},{"start":190.248,"end":206.557,"text":"都是手作啊或者是歌舞啊做點心做咖啡這一類的居多啦那我也特別感謝中分署為什麼因為剛才講的那個一個就是中分署好像我們的執訊類別"},{"start":207.998,"end":233.115,"text":"就比較沒有科技業的那有了之後呢我也很遺憾為什麼因為中分署說可能以後會沒有那問了原因大概是跟什麼有關係因為根據我們這個委託辦理職前訓練的作業原則他有一個部分是寫到說訓練單位要把這個結案報告含活動內容與結訓後90日內的就業成果"},{"start":238.939,"end":245.024,"text":"也就是說三個月就需要就業那他的績效指標會看不出就業率"},{"start":246.741,"end":254.705,"text":"所以呢偏偏跟我們這個我們要辦理執訓是要訓練他能夠投入農業能夠用無人機去做噴藥噴灑結果呢他沒有辦法透過這一次的訓練就完成這個可能會造成我們整個做職業訓練的一個困擾那我也要在這邊跟部長說就是這個原鄉我們很需要無人機"},{"start":274.995,"end":301.641,"text":"不僅僅是講農業因為我們的地形真的是又陡又崎嶇說一句實在話如果能夠善用無人機現代科技不僅僅解決那個農藥中毒的問題其實可以節省很多的人力而且可以鼓勵我們的青年返鄉但實際上它的應用在我們的山區包括救災像上次有一個新聞被毒蛇咬傷"},{"start":302.961,"end":318.731,"text":"用這個無人機去送那個血清10分鐘就可以送達那這樣的這個例子很多包括上次那個明巴克路橋斷橋那運送物資卡魯颱風時期呢用無人機運送物資其實都很方便甚至像現在的繪圖還有進法補償都可以用無人機來去做一個配套所以呢這個無人機對原住民的持訊來講"},{"start":329.798,"end":344.573,"text":"我覺得很多人都來跟我們澄清說非常的需要所以在這邊就是跟部長來做一個要求就是要嘛就重新檢視相關的就業機會去做一個規定的一個調整"},{"start":345.574,"end":361.748,"text":"我想這個也不是法律如果能夠去做一個調整就很好那又或者是說能跟原民會農業部一起來研擬原鄉就業導向的一個無人機課程直接導入就業市場那部長您的意見如何"},{"start":363.264,"end":384.298,"text":"我想其實我完全可以感受到那個委員其實在提的這個計畫我自己是覺得我們如果這些相關的KPI的指標如果有需要調整的部分那我們就我們當然可以來做一些相關的檢討那對於原鄉我們執訊的怎麼樣更多元甚至納入更多"},{"start":385.339,"end":405.223,"text":"可能不只甚至不只是無人機假如有更多其他科技科技上面相關的技術的可能性的部分我覺得我們也可以好來來多做考慮好不好謝謝部長謝謝您這樣一個態度的表示謝謝那後續就再到辦公室我們可以一起討論好我請我們的同仁來來來到委員辦公室好謝謝部長謝謝主席好謝謝吳委員謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1412,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：我知道的是一到兩個月，因為是120個小時。部長，你可能不知道，因為我本來也不知道，這個受訓完了之後，他是拿到基本級的操作證，就是所謂的只能夠做空拍，如果說要達到我剛才講的，能夠去做農業需要噴藥的植保機，他其實要依照主管機關──民航局一定的規範。如果要能夠拿到這個，至少要是高級1B，然後一直到高級2C。也就是說，如果要完全很通暢，就是拿到基本證照隔一個月之後再去考證，又順利通過，隔一個月之後又去進階、進階、進階，最快、最快、最順利、最順利也要半年以上。我為什麼要特別來提這個狀況？因為我們的原住民族工作權保障法第十五條有特別提到要依照原住民的需求，提供職業訓練的機會。我在這裡就常常很遺憾，我拿這個中分署……這應該是中分署的類別，我們就可以看得到，一般來講都是手作、歌舞、做點心、做咖啡這一類居多。我也特別感謝中分署，為什麼？因為剛才講的那個「一個」就是中分署，好像我們的職訓類別就比較沒有科技業的，有了之後我也很遺憾，為什麼？因為中分署說可能以後會沒有，我也問了原因大概跟什麼有關係。根據我們這個委託辦理職前訓練的作業原則，其中有一個部分寫到：「訓練單位應將各訓練班次之結案報告（含活動內容與結訓後九十日內之就業成果）函送委託機關……」也就是說三個月就需要就業，那它的績效指標會看不出就業率。偏偏我們要辦理職訓是要訓練他能夠投入農業、能夠用無人機做噴藥、噴灑，結果他沒有辦法透過這一次的訓練就完成，這個可能會造成我們做職業訓練的困擾。","我也要在這邊跟部長說，我們原鄉很需要無人機，不僅僅是講農業，因為我們的地形真的是又陡又崎嶇。說一句實在話，如果能夠善用無人機這種現代科技，不僅僅解決農藥中毒的問題，其實可以節省很多的人力，而且可以鼓勵我們的青年返鄉。實際上它應用在我們的山區，包括救災，像上次有一個新聞報導有人被毒蛇咬傷，用這個無人機去送血清，10分鐘就可以送達。像這樣的例子很多，包括上次那個明霸克露橋斷橋時就用來運送物資；在卡努颱風時期，用無人機運送物資，其實都很方便，甚至像現在的繪圖，還有禁伐補償都可以用無人機做配套。很多人都來跟我們陳情，原住民的職訓非常需要這個無人機，所以在這邊跟部長要求，要麼就重新檢視相關的就業計畫去做規定上的調整。我想這個也不是法律，如果能夠調整就很好；又或者是能跟原民會、農業部一起研擬原鄉就業導向的無人機課程，直接導入就業市場。部長，您的意見如何？"],["洪部長申翰：我想我完全可以感受到委員提的這個計畫，我自己是覺得我們這些相關的KPI指標如果有需要調整的部分，我們當然可以來做一些相關的檢討。至於對於原鄉的職訓應如何能更多元，甚至納入更多，可能也不只是無人機，假如有更多其他科技相關技術的可能性，我覺得我們也可以多考慮。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，謝謝部長，謝謝您表示這樣的態度。後續就再到辦公室，我們可以一起討論。"],["洪部長申翰：好，我再請我們業務同仁到伍委員辦公室。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝部長。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍委員。謝謝部長。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員詢答。","跟委員會報告，我們詢答結束之後會休息20分鐘讓，各位同仁用餐。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案 19案；二、邀請\n勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算關於勞動部主管部分","agenda_id":"1142901_00005"}}},{"id":"159405","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159405","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b88afa39b5747f64b039fe1519e09d1f6fb046c84a64030c6d0cd442c3dfdba8065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"13:12:33 - 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物價指數要去協調這個那個司法院嘛法輔基金會這是第二個第三個就是說"},{"start":252.854,"end":267.879,"text":"這個輔助的經費輔助的基準在第七條有規定第七條裡面四萬塊輔助的標準我這邊沒有列四萬塊線型的條文而這個線型的條文四萬塊"},{"start":270.894,"end":297.744,"text":"是從民國100年4月發布這個辦法的時候到現在100年了現在是114年 14年了所以這個4萬塊也要做一個應該來做調整這部分我們其實並不是給錢的我們是指派律師的方式我知道我是說你一個"},{"start":299.212,"end":313.185,"text":"在第7條我念一下第7條勞動調節訴訟代理酬金輔助基準如下對所以這個部分這個好你一併去檢討好接下來這個"},{"start":317.213,"end":343.561,"text":"在你的報告裡面有特別提到促進薪資透明化牢固雙方資訊對等這裡面你的報告特別提到這個4萬塊107年的時候是未達4萬元經常性薪資未達4萬元然後要要調整一定要調整今年是調整門檻5萬元這個部分的一個狀況是這樣"},{"start":346.672,"end":374.742,"text":"這個到底利還是不利本來心知透明化嘛你原來的用意是對的沒有錯那怎麼樣去評估這個部分本來你們原來的這個良善目的是良善的是對的那會不會產生其他的後遺症還是說我的直接建議我的直接建議"},{"start":376.593,"end":402.749,"text":"心智透明化這個就我們原住民勞工而言很多都沒有他明明在這個地方工作然後卻沒有加入勞保心智還是有領喔心智還是有領沒有加入勞保他不給他再加入勞保所以怎麼樣去勞動部跟勞保局去如果有這個心智透明化的制度"},{"start":404.809,"end":432.346,"text":"這個機制跟各位說明這個機制主要是針對其實我們在很多求職或者是求財的這個廣告上面有時候常常雇主會用免疫我知道我原來的用意我知道你們原來的用意有時候免疫其實會這個我們希望能夠讓勞工得到更多的資訊也讓勞工在跟這個雇主在議價薪資議價的時候有更多籌碼這個薪資透明化能不能再擴大"},{"start":433.287,"end":433.67,"text":"扣大讓這個"},{"start":436.672,"end":463.252,"text":"這個你們勞保勞檢或是企業去檢查的時候到底是不是這個勞工明明在這邊領薪水卻沒有投勞保類似這樣這樣我是做這樣的一個建議啦那跟這有點是兩個議題啦那因為我們現在在講心思透明化的部分比較是針對這個在人才招募過程裡面必須要公開建農所以這需要法規的支持好這個我剛剛的建議你們也去評估好謝謝"},{"start":465.154,"end":465.796,"text":"謝謝政委 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1379,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（13時13分）謝謝。主席、各位委員，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：辛苦了！勞資爭議法律及生活費用扶助辦法第三條第一項特別提到：「經主管機關調解不成立而向法院聲請勞動調解或起訴，且非屬有資力者，得申請前條第一款之扶助。」第一款、第二款、第三款都有規定。這裡面最主要就是提到「前三項之申請於訴訟程序進入第二審、第三審或再審者，得不經主管機關調解程序，申請前條第一款之扶助。」","按照現行的規定，如果透過訴訟程序取得執行名義之後，卻沒有辦法獲得扶助；或者是說他自己去訴訟，然後他也取得執行名義，就沒有包含在這裡面。這樣相關的規定，對一個勞工而言，確實就是他有需要去……他又無資力，是不是可以做這樣的修正？"],["王司長厚偉：謝謝委員。因為我們所有的訴訟扶助都會定期檢討，這個部分我們未來檢討修正的時候也會再來研究。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，這個一定要檢討修正。"],["王司長厚偉：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為勞資爭議，基本上勞工都是比較弱勢的一方，經過你們的調解程序之後，有的雇主也不同意啊！對不對？按照你們的標準，應該是可以，結果雇主不願意，只好進入訴訟程序。類似像這樣的，一定要把它做一個導正，這是第一個部分。","第二個部分，就是這個勞資爭議法律及生活費用扶助辦法的法規，如果我們看前面所謂的「非屬有資力者」，這個認定的部分多久沒有做修正或是……"],["王司長厚偉：跟委員報告，我們的資力其實比中低收入都可以更高，我們都會隨現在的物價做一些調整。因為這個部分我們都是跟法扶基金會合作，法扶基金會也都會再做這樣的調整。我們會定期檢視這樣的資力限制會不會過嚴、過苛，這部分我們都會處理。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。你們要去查當時是什麼時候訂的，現在經過這麼多年的……"],["洪部長申翰：要不要修正、要不要檢討。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，因為物價指數，要去協調司法院法扶基金會。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這是第二個。第三個是，扶助的經費和扶助的基準在第七條有規定，就是4萬塊。我這邊沒有列。根據現行的條文是4萬塊，而4萬塊是從民國100年4月發布這個辦法的時候到現在。100年哦！現在是114年，已經14年哦！所以這個4萬塊也應該要調整。"],["洪部長申翰：這個部分我們其實並不是給錢的，我們是用指派律師的方式。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道，我是說在第七條。我唸一下：「勞動調解、訴訟代理酬金扶助標準如下」。所以這個部分你們一併去檢討，好不好？"],["王司長厚偉：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：接下來，在勞動部的報告裡面有特別提到促進薪資透明化、勞雇雙方資訊對等。報告有特別提到，107年的時候經常性薪資未達4萬元，然後預定要調整，今年調整門檻是5萬元。這個部分到底是利還是不利？薪資透明化原來的用意是對的，沒有錯！那怎麼樣去評估這個部分？你們原來的目的是良善的，是對的，那會不會產生其他的後遺症？","我就直接建議了。薪資透明化，就我們原住民勞工而言，他明明在這個地方工作，卻沒有加入勞保。薪資還是有領哦！可是沒有加入勞保，因為不給他加入勞保啊！勞動部怎麼樣跟勞保局去……如果有這個薪資透明化的機制……"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這個機制主要是針對……其實在很多求職或者是求才的廣告上面，有時候常常雇主會用面議……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我知道。我知道你們原來的用意……"],["洪部長申翰：對，有時候面議其實會……我們希望能夠讓勞工得到更多的資訊，也讓勞工在跟雇主做薪資議價的時候有更多籌碼。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，我知道。我剛剛講的意思是這個薪資透明化能不能再擴大？擴大讓你們勞保、勞檢或是要去檢查的時候，看到底是不是這個勞工明明在這邊領薪水，卻沒有投勞保，類似像這樣，我是做這樣的建議。"],["洪部長申翰：跟鄭委員說明，這其實有點像是兩個議題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，兩個議題。"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在在講薪資透明化的部分比較是針對在人才招募過程裡面必須要公開……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，我瞭解。"],["洪部長申翰：所以這需要法規的支持。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，我剛剛的建議，你們也去評估。"],["洪部長申翰：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員。謝謝部長。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請伍麗華委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案 19案；二、邀請\n勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算關於勞動部主管部分","agenda_id":"1142901_00005"}}},{"id":"159404","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159404","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8152abd7476fe5bf039fe1519e09d1f6fb046c84a64030c6d306605202daef2345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"13:04:35 - 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勞動力發展署你們的業務費也被刪除了1000萬然後勞動力發展署的一般行政項目被刪減了3576萬所以說你們說勞動力發展署有400多名的第一線人員心知面臨發放困難這些是指那些約聘僱的第一線人員嗎"},{"start":185.285,"end":189.607,"text":"那那那那怎麼辦呢?因為這裡面因為我們法案署業務費被刪了1000萬重點還有後面我們還凍結了20%所以凍結了4000多萬這個刪減跟凍結的狀況加起來其實是超過5000萬的"},{"start":202.433,"end":225.835,"text":"那我們其實有很多第一線的一些這個救福人員他們的薪資其實是我們用這個業務費在做相關的補助的所以在這個三減跟凍結的狀況之下可能就會對於這些救福人員地方上面我們補助的救福人員的這個薪資的發放會造成困難"},{"start":226.645,"end":245.639,"text":"所以說200多位這個是屬於第一線的 他們是服務這些等於是第一線的工作人員就對了是 他就是就業服務人員那他們的薪水 比如說大概能夠發到幾月份所以我們現在其實已經開始有點欲缺不補了"},{"start":247.199,"end":265.679,"text":"那目前大概也是會到如果這個刪減跟凍結的狀況下面也是到如果沒有辦法解凍的話到下半年就會有薪資無法足而發放的問題那怎麼辦 請他們離職嗎這是我們很不樂意見到的對啊 好不容易到勞動部來那結果又請他們離職是對啊 因為你不能少他們的薪水啊"},{"start":269.064,"end":290.097,"text":"所以跟委員說明我們已經開始有點欲缺不補了就已經開始有欲缺不補的狀況然後因為避免到時候薪資發放的風險那真的會對於我們很多這些辛苦工作的工作人員現在還有兩百多名那你說下面那個勞動力發展所一般行政"},{"start":296.238,"end":323.233,"text":"三百分之十 三千五百七十六萬凍結百分之二十 七千多萬加起來多少 一億喔對那所以這個也會影響到公務人員 技工公有的薪資喔是 因為其實很多都是用這個一般行政的經費其實在做相關我們包括技工公有的薪資在做指引那所以咧所以如果到下半年沒有錢了這些人也是要請他們離開嗎 還是怎麼樣"},{"start":325.618,"end":338.259,"text":"根據委員報告基本上我們會先維持基本的行政維持必要的一個工作那這個部分我們會盡量留住會保障同仁的一個薪資方面的一個權益然後會從其他的行政費用去做準解處理"},{"start":339.606,"end":363.946,"text":"那有辦法嗎沒有還是要證據檢討對啊所以我的意思就是說來勞動部工作那結果因為被在野黨砍人的預算那結果結果面臨這一個在勞動部裡面要面臨被離職的這個問題那我覺得那不是我覺得真的是對他們來講情何以堪啊好那現在下一個這個你們的這一個基本行政工作"},{"start":364.802,"end":392.578,"text":"預算刪除一千萬凍結了一千五百八十三萬那所以咧你們這些清潔人員保全的人也會受到影響其實已經影響了其實我們在部裡面其實有些承染人力其實已經在三月三月一號已經離職了三月就這個月就離職了已經離職了有多少人現在已經離職了九位九位已經離職了那你們這個大概有幾位啊"},{"start":396.241,"end":410.107,"text":"你講的是指清潔人員跟保全嗎就是保全我們承攬的部分保全已經就是2月28號是最後一天然後現在已經無法再繼續再進他們的契約是多久啊"},{"start":411.254,"end":425.939,"text":"他們的契約我們通常是一年一標所以他們契約本來是到今年的12月31號但是因為我們預算的刪減那有些費用其實是不能是基本性基本的維持沒有辦法刪減的情況下我們只能非常非常無奈的就是讓九個這些承攬的人離然後在3月1號離職"},{"start":430.441,"end":446.422,"text":"那所以預算繼續不解凍的話會有更多的離子就對了對 如果不解凍的話會有下一波連水電的支付都會出現問題連勞動部的整個辦公行政的一般的維持如果持續不解凍的話都會出現問題的"},{"start":448.203,"end":469.693,"text":"我覺得這很悲哀的事情今天不是說因為你哪裡做不好然後這個砍運算那今天砍到的第一個新手爸媽那第二個這些最基層的這些工友濟工這些都受到影響那真的希望這個那當然我們召委在這邊他也希望說能夠趕快去做解凍但是被刪除的就沒有辦法了好 謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝李委 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1309,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（13時4分）謝謝主席。我們請洪部長，先喝口水再上來。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好！辛苦了。其實我們在這邊都很關心勞動部的預算。問一下！勞動部預算今年被砍了多少？"],["洪部長申翰：刪是8,000萬，整個凍結是1億8,000萬。"],["李委員坤城：刪掉8,000萬，然後凍結1億8,000萬？"],["洪部長申翰：18億。對不起！我講錯，我有點頭昏了！"],["李委員坤城：來！再說一次。"],["洪部長申翰：刪除的部分是8,000萬，然後凍結的部分是18億，未含統刪的。"],["李委員坤城：未含統刪的部分？"],["洪部長申翰：是18億。"],["李委員坤城：好，時間有限。剛剛黃捷也在關心，就是新手爸媽產檢假薪資的補助，以及陪產檢和陪產假的薪資補助。這部分預算被刪除了800萬，被凍結了1,942萬。這個本來是要給微小型的企業，因為多了兩天，由政府來補助。所以這樣下去的話，這個補助我剛剛聽到的是下半年就沒有了，那下半年大概是到幾月就沒有了？"],["洪部長申翰：依這個刪減跟凍結的狀況的話，如果沒有辦法解凍的話，可能到8、9月。"],["李委員坤城：到8、9月就沒有了？因為生小孩這件事情是沒辦法去控制時間的嘛！可能就下半年10月、11月的時候要生啊！之前要去陪產檢啊！所以這個對於新手爸媽來講，他們心裡一定覺得那為什麼在野黨要砍這個預算？這個預算對他們來講不無小補啊！你看有產檢假的薪資補助、陪產檢的薪資補助。這是在衛環這邊解凍就可以了嗎？還是要到大院？"],["洪部長申翰：這部分應該是在衛環委員會解凍就可以了。"],["李委員坤城：我是希望能夠趕快解凍啦！不然對於新手爸媽來講，只到8、9月，如果預產期是在那個時候該怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：解凍當然還是有它的不確定性啦！"],["李委員坤城：當然。"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們期望可以趕快讓我們比較有效地使用這些資源。"],["李委員坤城：好。這個是新手爸媽的部分。第二個，勞動力發展署的業務費也被刪除了1,000萬，勞動力發展署的一般行政項目被刪減了3,576萬，所以你們說勞動力發展署有四百多名第一線人員的薪資面臨發放困難，這些是指那些約聘僱的第一線人員嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["李委員坤城：那怎麼辦呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們發展署的業務費被刪了1,000萬，重點還有後面，我們還凍結了20%，所以凍結了四千多萬。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["洪部長申翰：這個刪減跟凍結的狀況加起來其實超過5,000萬了。我們其實有很多第一線就服人員的薪資是我們用業務費在做相關補助的，所以在這個刪減跟凍結的狀況之下，可能就會對這些地方上面我們補助的就服人員薪資的發放造成困難。"],["李委員坤城：所以兩百多位是屬於第一線的，他們等於是第一線的工作人員就對了？"],["洪部長申翰：是，他們是就業服務人員。"],["李委員坤城：那他們的薪水大概能夠發到幾月份？"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在其實已經開始有點遇缺不補了。在這個刪減跟凍結的狀況下，如果沒有辦法解凍的話，到下半年就會有薪資無法足額發放的問題。"],["李委員坤城：那怎麼辦？請他們離職嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這是我們很不樂意見到的。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！好不容易到勞動部來，結果又請他們離職！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["李委員坤城：因為你也不能少他們的薪水啊！"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以薪水……"],["洪部長申翰：所以跟委員說明，其實我們現在真的已經開始有遇缺不補的狀況，避免到時候薪資發放的風險，那真的會對我們很多辛苦的工作人員產生一些影響。"],["李委員坤城：現在也是還有兩百多名啊！"],["洪部長申翰：對，現在還有兩百多名。"],["李委員坤城：你說勞動力發展署一般行政刪10%，3,576萬，凍結20%，七千多萬。加起來多少？1億了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以這個也會影響到公務人員、技工、工友的薪資？"],["洪部長申翰：是，因為其實很多都是用一般行政的經費，包括對技工、工友的薪資在支應。"],["李委員坤城：那所以呢？如果到下半年沒有錢了，這些人也是要請他們離開嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["陳代理署長世昌：跟委員報告，我們會先進行基本行政維持必要的工作，這個部分我們會儘量保障同仁薪資方面的權益，會從其他的行政費用去撙節處理。"],["李委員坤城：那有辦法嗎？"],["陳代理署長世昌：沒有，還是要爭取解凍。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以我的意思就是說，來勞動部工作，因為被在野黨砍了預算，結果在勞動部裡面要面臨被離職的問題，我覺得對他們來講情何以堪！","下一個。你們的基本行政工作預算刪除1,000萬，凍結了1,583萬，所以你們這一些清潔人員、保全也會受到影響？"],["洪部長申翰：其實已經影響了。我們在部裡面有些承攬人力其實已經在3月1號離職了。"],["李委員坤城：3月？在這個月就離職了？"],["洪部長申翰：已經離職了。"],["李委員坤城：有多少人現在已經離職了？"],["洪部長申翰：9位。"],["李委員坤城：9位已經離職了？那你們這個大概有幾位？這裡講的是清潔人員跟保全嗎？"],["丁處長玉珍：對。"],["洪部長申翰：我們承攬的部分，保全2月28號是最後一天，現在已經無法再繼續在職。"],["李委員坤城：他們的契約是多久？"],["丁處長玉珍：我們通常是一年一標，所以他們的契約本來是到今年的12月31號。但是因為我們預算的刪減，有些費用其實是基本的維持，在沒有辦法刪減的情況下，我們只能非常非常無奈地讓這9個承攬的人力在3月1號離職。"],["李委員坤城：所以預算繼續不解凍的話，會有更多人離職就對了？"],["丁處長玉珍：對，如果不解凍的話，會有下一波。"],["洪部長申翰：連水電的支付都會出現問題。連勞動部整個辦公行政一般的維持，如果持續不解凍的話，都會出現問題的。"],["李委員坤城：我覺得這是很悲哀的事情。今天不是說因為你哪裡做不好，然後砍預算。今天砍到的，第一個是新手爸媽，第二個是這些最基層的工友、技工都受到影響。我們召委在這邊，他也希望能夠趕快解凍，但是被刪除的就沒有辦法了。好，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請鄭天財委員詢答。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：他不是排在我前面？"],["主席：沒有啊！順序是輪到你啊！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝！抱歉！"],["主席：沒關係，等你「喬」好。不然明天再來也沒關係。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案 19案；二、邀請\n勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算關於勞動部主管部分","agenda_id":"1142901_00005"}}},{"id":"159403","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159403","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b87d83984776c0d11e39fe1519e09d1f6fb046c84a64030c6d3cbf50dea0cea1405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"12:58:11 - 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謝謝主席 我們請洪部長有請部長"},{"start":11.937,"end":15.798,"text":"時間短短的我先來關心這個產價跟賠產價的狀況因為我真的是很擔心啊其實從去年年底大家在討論總預算的時候我就已經不斷的在說這樣子預算砍下去到底會不會影響你們補助產價跟這個賠產價的補助那就我所知其實勞動部也是很願意照顧"},{"start":36.184,"end":55.741,"text":"這個就是要願意來請產假跟陪產假的人嘛就是如果有請假的話你們是七天你們是願意補助兩天的所以在這個預算被砍之後到底會受到什麼實質的影響可不可以在部長這邊明確的跟勞工們說那這個是我現在最擔心的一件事情"},{"start":56.041,"end":71.232,"text":"因為在現在是在就業平等業務這個項目裡面在1月的預算審查裡面被砍了800萬然後被動了兩成在將近2000萬加起來可能是在那個項目裡面將近三成那關於產價賠償減價我們的獎勵補助其實是在這裡面"},{"start":74.794,"end":97.74,"text":"大概比例是非常高的可能八九成都是在這個項目裡面所以按照這個刪減跟凍結的狀況勢必會影響產價跟培安減價我們蔣補助的發放這當然就影響到很多新手爸媽的權益所以這是我們覺得比較遺憾的事情好我問一個比較明確的就是現在這個預算砍下去我們大概只能發到幾月"},{"start":99.702,"end":116.592,"text":"應該是下半年吧下半年那也就是說下半年的新手爸媽想要來使用這個補助很可能就請不到了是這樣嗎就是這個三檢跟凍結的狀況我們認為如果這個到下半年可能就會有補助上面會用完的情況"},{"start":117.512,"end":129.699,"text":"好這就是我最擔心的我很擔心說到今年下半年新手爸媽就失去了這一項福利那如果啦真的下半年預算沒有被解凍那我們勞動部打算怎麼"},{"start":133.382,"end":156.005,"text":"我們還是希望能夠想盡辦法來協助可是這當然都會是權力上面的影響這是為什麼我們很期待之前的復議的原因但是恐怕還是會有一些權力會受到影響但是這部分因爲我們當然讓部內還要再做一些討論"},{"start":157.076,"end":179.436,"text":"好 謝謝部長 這個是我真的很擔心啦今年下半年新手爸媽的權益就要被影響了所以我在這邊一定要來幫新手爸媽來發聲那當然我會認為說這一波的預算砍下去不只是對勞工很傷 對資方也很傷簡直就是勞資雙輸 損人不利己那這樣的砍預算到底有什麼意義呢"},{"start":180.197,"end":195.308,"text":"那最後一點時間我來請教一下這個麥當勞案的後續啊因為其實這個案子大家也非常的關注那據我所知去年底這個麥當勞的性侵案發生之後台北市勞動局有去調查然後呢最後對麥當勞是裁罰了100萬"},{"start":197.569,"end":218.72,"text":"那原因是因為這個麥當勞沒有進到性別平等工作法裡面的要求就是說雇主在知道有性騷擾情形的時候並沒有及時的採取有效的糾正以及補救的措施那甚至我認為有一點令人遺憾而且非常氣憤的是直到這個事件就是這個受害者他"},{"start":219.88,"end":247.563,"text":"自殺之後事件爆發之後麥當勞才出來說要帶這個諮商心理師來關心受害者的家屬那這種時候的關心都已經於事無補了都為時已晚了所以我認為這個職場上面的性騷擾的防治還有這個相關的職場的指引是不是可以再加強即便是麥當勞這麼大的公司耶這麼大的公司我認為他們相關的知能也非常的不足"},{"start":249.004,"end":276.306,"text":"其實在這個事件之後我想大家其實看了都都會都很傷心那我們當然現在台北市政府其實是有做出相關的裁法但我們也會來做出針對像性供針對性供法這個職場的性騷擾的問題或者是講性騷擾的問題來的防治啊來做專案的勞檢這部分其實我們的勞檢單位其實針對這個主題我們會特別來做那也希望"},{"start":276.926,"end":289.801,"text":"接下來其實可能有一些比例我們也希望能夠邀請一些專家能夠陪同來做勞檢因為這個跟性平的議題有關的其實是需要一些專家在現場其實來看我們的防治的作為會不會有效"},{"start":290.404,"end":307.057,"text":"好謝謝部長說明最後因為我知道說現在勞動部是不是針對那個職場上面的性騷以及性別相關的一些輔導有一些補助那這可不可以讓大家知道說這個是如何來補助企業做這方面的智能培訓"},{"start":308.323,"end":333.045,"text":"那我們跟委員報告那針對這個我們NGO的部分我們大概有起了一個計畫我們希望說透過我們除了自己勞動部辦訓以外有其他的NGO能夠幫我們協助深入各個我們看不到的一些角落那這個部分的話大概整個的那個相關的補助我們申請是受理到4月然後我們後面會跟這些NGO團體一起來共同推動"},{"start":333.885,"end":354.625,"text":"好那我這樣說你們平常可能宣傳也宣傳相關的預算可能也有被砍到所以被砍了所以我在這邊幫你們宣傳啦我認為這是一個很好的政策這個相關的防治措施那你們既然願意提供那就讓職場上各種企業都多多來申請那大家一起來提升性別意識"},{"start":355.785,"end":373.374,"text":"勞動部也很需要這些第三部門一起來協助因為關於職場的性騷擾或性侵害相關的防治其實是很需要公司一起來協力的所以我們很樂意提供這些相關的資源來去協助民間的組織一起跟我們合作我想我們是用這個精神在規劃這樣的資源好 謝謝部長的說明 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1282,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（12時58分）謝謝主席，請洪部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長，時間短短的，我先來關心產假跟陪產假的狀況，因為我真的是很擔心，其實從去年年底大家在討論總預算的時候，我就已經不斷的在說：哇！這樣子預算砍下去，到底會不會影響到產假跟陪產假的補助？就我所知，其實勞動部也是很願意照顧願意來請產假跟陪產假的人，如果有請假的話，請7天你們是願意補助2天的。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["黃委員捷：所以在這個預算被砍之後，到底會受到什麼實質的影響？部長可不可以在這邊明確的跟勞工們說明，這個是我現在最擔心的一件事情。"],["洪部長申翰：因為現在是在就業平等業務這個項目裡面，這在1月的預算審查裡面被砍了800萬、被凍了二成，將近2,000萬，加起來可能是那個項目裡面的將近三成，而產假、陪產檢假的獎補助在這裡面比例是非常高的，可能八、九成都是在這個項目裡面，所以按照刪減跟凍結的狀況，勢必會影響產假跟陪產檢假獎補助的發放，這當然就會影響到很多新手爸媽的權益，這是我們覺得比較遺憾的事情。"],["黃委員捷：好，我問一個比較明確的，現在這個預算砍下去，我們大概只能發到幾月？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是下半年。"],["黃委員捷：下半年？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["黃委員捷：那也就是說，下半年的新手爸媽想要來使用這個補助，很可能就請不到了。是這樣嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就是這個刪減跟凍結的狀況，我們認為到下半年可能就會有補助上面用完的情況。"],["黃委員捷：好，這就是我最擔心的，我很擔心到今年下半年新手爸媽就失去了這一項福利。如果真的下半年預算沒有被解凍，那勞動部打算怎麼因應？"],["洪部長申翰：我們還是希望能夠想盡辦法來協助啦！可是這當然都會是權利上面的影響。這是為什麼我們很期待之前覆議的原因，但是恐怕還是會有一些權利會受到影響，這部分當然勞動部內部還要再做一些討論。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長。這個事我真的很擔心啦！今年下半年新手爸媽的權益就要被影響了，所以我在這邊一定要來幫新手爸媽發聲。當然我會認為這一波的預算砍下去不只是對勞工很傷，對資方也很傷，簡直就是勞資雙輸，損人不利己，那這樣的砍預算到底有什麼意義呢？","最後一點時間，我來請教一下麥當勞案的後續，這個案子大家也非常地關注。就我所知，去年底麥當勞的性侵案發生之後，臺北市勞動局有去調查，最後對麥當勞裁罰了100萬元，原因是麥當勞沒有盡到性別平等工作法裡面的要求，就是說雇主在知道有性騷擾情形的時候，並沒有及時地採取有效的糾正以及補救的措施。甚至我認為有一點令人遺憾而且非常氣憤的是，直到這個事件的受害者自殺之後、事件爆發之後，麥當勞才出來說要帶諮商心理師來關心受害者的家屬。這種時候的關心都已經於事無補了，都為時已晚了。職場上面的性騷擾防治，還有相關的職場指引是不是可以再加強？即便是麥當勞這麼大的公司，我認為他們相關的知能也非常地不足。"],["洪部長申翰：其實在這個事件之後，我想大家看了都很傷心。當然現在臺北市政府有做出相關的裁罰，但我們也會針對性工法職場性騷擾或者是職場性侵害問題的防治做專案的勞檢。針對這個主題，我們的勞檢單位會特別來做。接下來可能有一些比例，我們也希望能夠邀請一些專家陪同來做勞檢，因為跟性平議題有關的其實需要一些專家在現場，看我們的防治作為會不會有效。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長的說明。最後，我知道現在勞動部針對職場上面的性騷，以及性別相關的輔導有一些補助，那可不可以讓大家知道這個是如何來補助企業做這方面的知能培訓？"],["黃司長維琛：跟委員報告，針對NGO的部分，我們大概有啓動一個計畫，我們希望除了自己勞動部辦訓以外，有其他的NGO能夠協助我們，深入各個我們看不到的一些角落。這個部分的話，申請相關的補助我們是受理到4月，然後我們後面會跟這些NGO團體一起來共同推動。"],["黃委員捷：好。我知道你們平常宣傳相關的預算可能也有被砍到，所以這方面……"],["洪部長申翰：被砍了。"],["黃委員捷：被砍了！所以這方面我在這邊幫你們宣傳。我認為這是一個很好的政策，你們既然願意提供相關的防治措施，那就讓職場上各種企業都多多來申請，大家一起來提升性別意識。"],["洪部長申翰：勞動部也很需要這些第三部門一起來協助，因為職場性騷擾或性侵害相關的防治其實很需要公司一起來協力，所以我們很樂意提供這些相關的資源，協助民間的組織一起跟我們合作。我想我們是用這個精神在規劃這樣的資源。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長的說明。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請李坤城委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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有請勞動部長請紅部長不好意思 我們等一下投影片張委員好"},{"start":24.124,"end":48.164,"text":"好沒關係我先開始好了部長想要請教一下就是其實從去年的這個勞動部的無性公務員因長期的職場壓力輕生之後呢那時候其實有揭露了非常非常多的事實也引發了非常多公務員在這個職場上面遇到一些霸凌的問題那其實有非常多的投訴啦所以到現在其實已經四個月了我想針對這件事情再做一些積極的討論"},{"start":50.206,"end":77.447,"text":"那就是說其實在上個月其實部長當時有公布一個叫做執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引的一個公告就是希望可以去強化僱主對於職場霸凌的一個防治責任來保障我們勞工的身心健康那在這個指引通過之後下一個階段應該就是要在職安法增訂這個防治霸凌的專章那我想要請教一下目前有沒有一個時程表"},{"start":78.367,"end":99.722,"text":"我們在職場辦專章因為已經開了三次的跟專家學的討論以後現在在法條上面的擬定其實已經進到收尾的階段那我自己是希望說我們趕快在這個法條上面的草案確定以後就可以盡快的來預告那有沒有一個大概的時程呢我是希望盡快盡快對大概"},{"start":101.952,"end":129.677,"text":"可能幾個禮拜內吧幾個禮拜內 OK好那就是說 因為其實這部分啦就是非常非常多人關心所以也希望就是說收集大家意見的時候我們可以在一個月之後可以看到一個相關的版本是 我們預告之後然後我會送到行政院來做審議然後希望趕快就送到立法院裡面我們目標還是在這會期送進立法院好 謝謝那我也想要提醒洪部長一件事情我這好像沒有辦法按 幫我按下一頁好了"},{"start":132.363,"end":161.294,"text":"我想提醒部長一件事情就是霸凌的定義其實在教育部的時候他101年有制定一個校園霸凌防制準則那可是因為後來其實也發生了許多網路霸凌的事件像是104年的Cindy事件然後當年其實統計校園遭受霸凌大概有五萬五千名學生所以當時大家朝野立委都認為我們應該訂定一個防止霸凌專法但是教育部有提醒一件事情就是說霸凌的形態其實是持續的在改變所以不要用專法來制定"},{"start":161.934,"end":171.841,"text":"避免到時候可能會有一些樣態是沒有辦法使用這個霸凌的定義所以他們後來是使用這個防治準則那這次新修正的指引的職場霸凌的規定"},{"start":173.806,"end":197.232,"text":"是這樣寫的 勞工與執行職務在勞動場所中受同仁主管部署藉由職務權利濫用或不公平對待所造成的持續性的冒犯威脅冷落孤立或侮辱行為使受害勞工感到受挫被羞辱被威脅被孤立及受傷危害其身心健康跟安全提出了七種樣態"},{"start":198.812,"end":225.291,"text":"但是呢這七種樣態出來之後其實外界也是有持續發出一些聲音啦那我這邊整理一下主要的爭議就是來自於說到底什麼叫做持續性好保障不定的持續性跟權利濫用可是實務判斷上我們如何認定呢什麼樣的程度的言行是構成了權利濫用那這些可能有高度的主觀性可能會有認知上認定上的困難第二個部分"},{"start":226.632,"end":247.878,"text":"被霸凌者其實往往舉證非常的困難尤其是言語霸凌啦心靈霸凌等等的可能缺乏具體的證據或者是沒有第三人在場的情況之下那我們雖然有一些申訴管道但是不是能夠有效的保護申訴者不被報復那這才是一個疑慮啦第三個部分就是我們把這個"},{"start":249.538,"end":262.683,"text":"霸凌的行為者呢擴大到主管同事之間的多種主體可是如果實務上如果這個霸凌來自於客戶或是服務對象的話雇主可能很難直接的控制或干預那這就會有規則歸屬的一個很模糊的狀態"},{"start":266.184,"end":282.766,"text":"所以我在想是不是也可以把相關的意見再做一些收集那也可以讓我們知道說這個法律的定義上面要怎麼來處理因為這可能就會連動到未來公務人員防止霸凌防治的一個法律意涵所以這部分是不是可以請勞動部再做更仔細的釐清"},{"start":283.527,"end":300.005,"text":"好跟張委員說明確實比方說因為從很多實務上面來看比方說確實我們在國際上面會看到有些他會要會強調說要有所謂的持續性那當然持續性怎麼認定或者是在持續性這個問題上面有沒有一些"},{"start":301.567,"end":320.159,"text":"比較開放性的討論的空間那這部分其實我們在我們自己的專章裡面我們都有做相關的思考但是你現在裡面講到的一些問題包括標準認定的問題其實我們自己也參考了一些國際的法律確實對職場霸凌的認定都"},{"start":324.571,"end":350.604,"text":"大家都有表達這個認定上面好像不容易好像某個做法就能夠切得一乾二淨就是這在國際上面都是這樣子的討論所以都有這個狀況可是我們盡量的把這些東西納入我們在我們法治工作裡面的考慮這樣子對好那其實在第二個問題我是想要來問一下部長你有聽過三明治世代嗎你知道什麼是三明治世代嗎知道"},{"start":351.164,"end":368.196,"text":"你可以大概講一下三明治世代是什麼嗎就是這中間可能夾在要顧老又顧小沒錯就是其實我就是所謂的三明治世代啦我上面有長輩下面有小孩嘛那其實我們常常會遇到一個現實的問題就是小孩生病長輩生病的時候到底我們應該如何的去選"},{"start":369.477,"end":385.425,"text":"如何的在工作跟職場上面去做一個平衡所以如果國家可以支持我們的話讓家長可以安心的去請這個家庭照顧假的話其實就是可以更支持我們女性不要因為經濟收入可能普遍比男性來的低而成為最後必須要請假"},{"start":386.705,"end":404.947,"text":"來去支援照顧育兒或是顧長輩的一個犧牲角色那其實民間團體這幾年一直有來倡議就是說希望勞工的家庭工作假可以比照公務員有7天的有薪假那我不曉得多我不曉得說部長您的看法我其實有算過大概一年是740億啦您的看法是什麼"},{"start":407.407,"end":416.112,"text":"確實我們在評估如果這個家庭照顧假要有薪的話每一天可能是會是上百億的狀況所以7天的話可能會是700多億"},{"start":417.311,"end":437.771,"text":"700多億對那目前的話是規劃下一步是要怎麼來有算過嗎那我其實跟張委員說明就是說因為剛剛在講到像照顧不離職這樣子的目標但是我覺得我們整體的這個目標那關於家庭照顧價的強化這是做法"},{"start":438.68,"end":454,"text":"就大家提議的做法之一那可是這些相關的做法當然會牽涉到財源跟財政的問題尤其是在現在財務法的修訂之後中央其實可以整體調度的財源又比過去來的少"},{"start":455.282,"end":469.379,"text":"那剛剛在你的投影片裡面有講到說這個今年的這個稅劇剩餘的部分可是因為稅劇剩餘並不是每年都一定會有的可是如果今天我要把它變成是一個制度性的制度的話它應該會是要每年都會有持續性的裁員"},{"start":470.58,"end":497.31,"text":"而沒有辦法只是說今年看起來睡意剩餘比較多所以就可以拿來補可是明年如果沒有睡意剩餘就沒辦法補可能就不會是這個狀況所以我們基本上目前還是希望比方透過休假的制度或者是留庭的制度怎麼樣讓它更彈性更好用的方式來去兼顧也不只是女性啦照顧家庭跟職場需求上面的平衡那這部分我們還在研擬之中那應該希望盡快的可以來跟大家來做討論"},{"start":498.851,"end":514.898,"text":"所以目前就是在架上面去做一些調整嗎或者是流停的做法流停的做法上面其實怎麼樣更有彈性可以更靈活更能夠兼顧大家實際上面的需求所以就在育嬰流停上面可能還會有一些調整的空間就對了我們認為是有空間好 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1243,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時49分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長，想要請教，其實從去年勞動部的吳姓公務員因長期的職場壓力輕生之後，揭露了非常多事實，也引發非常多公務員在職場上遇到一些霸凌的問題，其實有非常多的投訴。到現在已經4個月了，我想針對這件事情再做一些積極的討論。","上個月部長有公布一個「執行職務遭受不法侵害預防指引」的公告，希望可以強化雇主對於職場霸凌的防制責任，來保障勞工的身心健康。在這個指引通過之後，下一個階段應該就是要在職安法增訂防制霸凌的專章。我想要請教，目前有沒有一個時程表？"],["洪部長申翰：針對職場霸凌專章，我們已經開了三次會，跟專家學者討論以後，現在在法條的擬定其實已經到收尾的階段，我自己是希望在法條草案確定以後，我們可以儘快預告。"],["張委員雅琳：有沒有一個大概的時程？"],["洪部長申翰：我是希望儘快。"],["張委員雅琳：儘快？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["張委員雅琳：大概多久？"],["洪部長申翰：可能幾個禮拜內吧。"],["張委員雅琳：幾個禮拜內，OK，好。","其實這部分非常非常多人關心，所以也希望蒐集大家的意見，我們可以在一個月之後看到相關的版本。"],["洪部長申翰：是，我們預告之後，會送到行政院審議，然後希望趕快送到立法院，我們的目標還是在這個會期送進立法院。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。","我也想要提醒洪部長一件事，就是霸凌的定義。其實教育部在101年有制定一個校園霸凌防制準則，可是因為後來發生了許多網路霸凌的事件，像104年的Cindy事件，當年統計，在校園遭受霸凌的大概有5萬5,000名學生，所以當時朝野立委都認為我們應該訂定一個防止霸凌專法。但是教育部有提醒一件事情，霸凌的型態其實是持續的在改變，所以建議不要用專法來制定，避免到時候可能有一些樣態會沒有辦法使用霸凌的定義，所以他們後來是使用「防制準則」。","這次新修正的指引的職場霸凌定義是這樣寫的，「包括勞工於執行職務，在勞動場所中，受同仁間或主管及部屬間，藉由職務、權力濫用或不公平對待，所造成持續性的冒犯、威脅、冷落、孤立或侮辱行為，使受害勞工感到受挫、被威脅、羞辱、被孤立及受傷，進而危害其身心健康跟安全」，並提出了7種樣態。但是這7種樣態出來之後，其實外界也是有持續發出一些聲音，我這邊整理一下，主要的爭議來自於，到底什麼叫做持續性？勞動部訂了持續性跟權力濫用，可是實務判斷上，我們要如何認定呢？什麼樣程度的言行是構成了權力濫用？這些可能有高度的主觀性，可能會有認定上的困難。","第二個部分，被霸凌者往往舉證非常困難，尤其是言語霸凌、心靈霸凌等等，可能缺乏具體的證據，或者是沒有第三人在場的情況之下，我們雖然有一些申訴管道，但是不是能夠有效的保護申訴者不被報復，這才是一個疑慮。第三個部分，我們把霸凌的行為者擴大到主管、同事之間的多種主體，可是實務上如果這個霸凌來自於客戶或是服務對象的話，雇主可能很難直接的控制或干預，這就會有歸責、歸屬的一個很模糊的狀態。所以我在想是不是可以把相關的意見再做一些蒐集，也可以讓我們知道這在法律的定義上要怎麼來處理，因為這可能會連動到未來公務人員防止霸凌防制的法律義涵，所以這部分是不是可以請勞動部再做更仔細的釐清？"],["洪部長申翰：好，跟張委員說明，從很多實務上面來看，確實我們在國際上面會看到有些會強調要有所謂的持續性，當然持續性怎麼認定，或者是在持續性這個問題上面有沒有一些比較開放性的討論空間？關於這個部分，其實我們在自己的專章裡面都有做相關的思考。"],["張委員雅琳：OK。"],["洪部長申翰：但是你現在裡面講到的一些問題，包括標準認定的問題，其實我們自己也參考了一些國際的法律，對於所謂職場霸凌的認定，確實大家都有表達出在認定上好像不容易用某個做法就能夠切得一乾二淨，其實在國際上面都是這樣子的討論，所以都有這個狀況，可是我們會儘量把這些東西納入我們法制工作裡面的考慮。"],["張委員雅琳：好。第二個問題想要請問部長，你有聽過三明治世代嗎？你知道什麼是三明治世代嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：知道。"],["張委員雅琳：你可以大概講一下三明治世代是什麼嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：就是夾在中間，要顧老又要顧小。"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，我就是所謂的三明治世代，我上面有長輩，下面有小孩，其實我們常常會遇到一個現實的問題，就是小孩生病、長輩生病的時候，到底我們應該如何在工作跟職場之間去做一個平衡？所以如果國家可以支持我們，讓家長可以安心的去請家庭照顧假的話，其實就可以更支持我們女性不要因為經濟收入可能普遍比男性來得低，而成為最後必須要請假去支援照顧育兒或是顧長輩的那個犧牲角色。其實民間團體這幾年一直有來倡議，希望勞工的家庭照顧假可以比照公務員有7天的有薪假，我不曉得部長的看法為何？我其實有算過，大概一年是740億，您的看法是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：確實，我們在評估如果家庭照顧假要有薪的話，每一天可能會是上百億的狀況，所以7天可能會是七百多億。"],["張委員雅琳：對，目前規劃的下一步是要怎麼來……有算過嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：跟張委員說明，剛剛講到像照顧不離職這樣子的目標，當然是我們整體的目標，關於家庭照顧假的強化，這是大家提議的作法之一，可是這些相關的作法當然會先牽涉到財源跟財政的問題，尤其是現在財劃法修訂之後，中央可以整體調度的財源又比過去來得少。至於剛剛張委員的投影片裡面有講到今年歲計賸餘的部分，可是歲計賸餘並不是每年都一定會有，如果今天我要把它變成是一個制度性的制度的話，它應該是要每年都會有持續性的財源，而沒有辦法今年看起來歲計賸餘比較多，就可以拿來補；可是明年如果沒有歲計賸餘，就沒辦法補，可能就不會是這個狀況。所以基本上我們目前還是希望比方說透過休假的制度或是留停的制度，看怎麼樣讓他用更彈性、用更好用的方式，也不只是女性……"],["張委員雅琳：照顧者。"],["洪部長申翰：讓他去兼顧照顧家庭跟職場需求上面的平衡。這部分我們還在研擬之中，希望可以儘快跟大家做討論。"],["張委員雅琳：所以目前就是在假的上面會去做一些調整？"],["洪部長申翰：或者是留停的作法，在留停的作法上面，怎麼樣更有彈性、可以更靈活、更能夠兼顧大家實際上面的需求。"],["張委員雅琳：了解，所以在育嬰留停上面可能還會有一些調整的空間就對了？"],["洪部長申翰：我們認為是有空間。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請黃捷委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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怎麼樣去來評估它的這個績效"},{"start":146.546,"end":175.829,"text":"我們現在對於這個新的這個計劃他提案的時候我們就會跟他商議我們如何去看他的績效成果那另外我們同時會搭配我們在清培站跟我們現在新的區域的這個協作的督導我們都有一些這個KPI這KPI包括有多少人返鄉然後帶動的人潮有多少等等我們現在都納入這個新的KPI的管理"},{"start":176.343,"end":202.258,"text":"那我們希望能夠真正帶動地方的均衡跟發展所以我們很期待因為現在的阿里山它已經不是過去那可能只是國內的一個旅遊景點而已它基本上已經是串聯到世界各國都已經知道它的這一個是我們台灣的重要的地標沒錯所以它這個重要性已經不是我們家的阿里山它是台灣的全國的一個重要的一個發展那它會成為我們很重要的一個標竿"},{"start":203.399,"end":225.527,"text":"那第二部分我想要請教這跟我們嘉義的民雄航太園區跟我們的其他的這一個無人機的系統那就有直接關係無人機產業是我們總統的非常這個已經誓言要去發展的五大現在產業中的很重視的軍工產業那我們嘉義有一個無人機的完整的供應鏈"},{"start":226.747,"end":251.915,"text":"那國發會的產業發展處在去年的秋季的報告有很明確的提到說政府將輔導投入無人機跟反制系統反制系統的整合技術那我就要提到說無人機的反制系統已經受到重要重視性但是兩個禮拜前我們舉辦這個座談會有一些廠商都指出因為電信管理法的限制建置無人機的反制雷達系統設備會被NCC視為設置電台"},{"start":254.396,"end":278.946,"text":"每年他需要繳納高額的規費一方面國發會是要鼓勵業者投入但是另一方面就忽略了類似這樣子的法規限制有沒有辦法來去跟這個NCC來主動來協調看看看看電信管理法的一些相關的行政規範可不可以調整來去降低對這個無人機產業就是無人機反制系統產業他的這個發展的障礙可不可以排除你有什麼看法"},{"start":280.927,"end":307.43,"text":"這個是我們信賴無產業裡面很重要的一環所以我們會來主動找NCC來了解這個狀況好 那有必要我們來協助這個探討看看能不能把這個相關做進行調整我們讓這個產業沒有這樣的負擔我們鼓勵的同時鼓勵當然就是有各種的這個激勵的政策獎勵的政策但是其實把一些法規障礙排除掉對於整個產業的前進是有很大的幫助也不見得一定是要"},{"start":308.07,"end":328.46,"text":"把資源投入是一方面把障礙移除也是一個可以重視的部分我們是希望說特別是我們現在大家都講說無人機的這個產業但是無人機的反制系統這個也是必須要重視的那這個地方再麻煩盡快跟NCC提出具體的這個方案好不好好的好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":996,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時51分）請主委。"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員午安。"],["陳委員冠廷：午安。主委，我們嘉義縣阿里山鄉有秀麗的景色，還有文化及人文各種的資產，近日也被紐約時報評為2025年最佳旅遊的地方。我想請教一下，阿里山鄉是嘉義縣內首個獲得地方創生所核定的鄉鎮，現在也在推動阿里山2.0部落產業永續創生計畫，該計畫在今年1月核定，預算是2,289萬元，主要是專注於兩大部分，第一個是北四村的觀光創生，另外一個是南三村的共榮發展。主要是人才的培育、觀光的共榮計畫，還有傳承等三大方向來推動部落的升級；與過去1.0時注重的基礎建設不太一樣，現在2.0計畫主要是聚焦發展跟弱勢區域的提升，跟總統講的均衡臺灣不謀而合。我想請教一下，現在中央預算受到大幅的刪減，我們這個阿里山2.0計畫的預算有沒有受到影響？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員的關心，我們在今年1月22日已經通過這個計畫，在預算的使用上，會以已經通過的為優先，所以這個計畫我們會克服困難，比較優先來執行。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以會優先處理，不會受到影響，我們全力繼續推動，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：會受影響的是未來要申請的新的計畫，才會受到影響。"],["陳委員冠廷：但是這一個不會嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以，我們可以跟我們所有的鄉親報告：阿里山2.0的這一個創生計畫是不會受到影響。我想再請教一下，未來我們在實施這個計畫時，它的指標跟機制是怎麼樣？怎麼樣去評估它的績效？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在對於新的計畫，在提案的時候，會跟他們商議如何去看它的績效成果；另外，也會同時搭配我們在青培站，跟我們現在新區域協作的督導，都會有KPI，這個KPI包括有多少人返鄉，然後帶動的人潮有多少等等，都會納入這個新的KPI的管理，希望能夠真正帶動地方的均衡跟發展。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以我們很期待，因為現在的阿里山已經不是過去只是國內的一個旅遊景點而已……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們頂尖的……"],["陳委員冠廷：基本上，它已經串聯到世界各國都已經知道它的這一個……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是我們臺灣重要的地標。"],["陳委員冠廷：沒錯，所以，它的重要性已經不只是嘉義的阿里山，而是臺灣的阿里山，也是全國的一個重要發展，它會成為我們很重要的一個標竿。","第二個部分想要請教的是，嘉義民雄的航太園區跟我們的無人機系統有直接關係，無人機產業是總統誓言要去發展的五大信賴產業中非常重視的軍工產業，嘉義有完整的無人機產業供應鏈，國發會產業發展處在去年的秋季報告中也很明確的提到，政府將輔導投入無人機跟反制系統的整個技術。本席要說的是，無人機反制系統的重要性已經受到重視；但是兩個禮拜前，我們舉辦相關的座談會時，有一些廠商指出因為電信管理法的限制，建置無人機的反制雷達系統設備會被NCC視為設置電臺，每年需要繳納高額的規費。一方面國發會鼓勵業者投入，但另一方面卻忽略了類似這樣子的法規限制，我們有沒有辦法跟NCC主動協調，看看電信管理法相關的一些行政規範可不可以調整，將無人機反制系統產業發展的障礙予以降低、排除。你有什麼看法？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是我們信賴五產業裡面很重要的一環，所以我們會主動找NCC了解這個狀況，如有必要，我們會來協助，探討看看能不能對相關的法進行調整，讓產業沒有這樣的負擔。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們鼓勵當然就是有各種的激勵政策、獎勵政策，但是把一些法規障礙排除掉，對於整個產業的前進也是有很大的幫助。資源投入是一方面，把障礙移除也是一個可以重視的部分，特別是大家都在講無人機這個產業，而無人機的反制系統也是必須要重視的；針對這個部分，麻煩國發會儘快跟NCC提出具體方案。好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們現在請張嘉郡委員做詢答。張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","我們現在請高金素梅委員做詢答。高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。","我們現在請馬文君委員做詢答。馬文君委員、馬文君委員不在。","我們現在請葉元之委員做詢答。葉元之委員、葉元之委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員張嘉郡所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢及未答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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這個是不能這樣看要看哪一年他現在才第二個廠現在是結構才蓋好嘛那到整個能夠量產最快是今年底最快是今年底那再蓋第三個廠第三個廠再蓋好才會進到第四個廠第五個廠那都是兩三年後的事了對對對所以他進到兩奈米一定是兩三年後的事了"},{"start":205.154,"end":228.899,"text":"所以目前一定不可能進到2奈米目前沒有那麼快一定是在台灣的2奈米運作順暢之後他才有可能往外移動那即將要審查他們董事會通過以後我們因為連總統都開了記者會了所以您有沒有瞭解台積電投資美國但最近川普還特別強調不是1650億美元是2000億他這樣講那本席想請問"},{"start":235.741,"end":244.989,"text":"這個錢台積電怎麼來會不會掏空台灣丟到美國去台積電投資在美國的場他資金怎麼來"},{"start":246.414,"end":273.65,"text":"資金怎麼來目前是沒有這個並沒有在董事會討論過了那只是說在他會在審計委員會裡面做比較細的討論因為他的錢一定不夠這麼多嘛他的錢一定不夠那麼多世界各國也不會貸款給他那這就只能搬台灣的錢過去因為他很多錢資金調度會在美國直接就在地的調度了"},{"start":275.151,"end":296.544,"text":"在美國在地的調度他自己台積電內部調度還是美國會借錢給他他會跟美國的金融業就像很多公司來到台灣投資會所以你判斷美國金融業會借錢給台積電台積電的信用等級非常的高沒有人會不想借給他"},{"start":297.524,"end":320.178,"text":"我們不希望掏空台灣我們台積電是賺世界人的錢來讓台灣經濟發展讓我們民眾財富增加我們請主委一定要堅定立場有一點我要說明台積電的產能80%在台灣也就是說它的80%的投資在台灣80%的投資在台灣"},{"start":323.673,"end":336.938,"text":"對 但是我們看的先進技術很重要技術過去 人才各方面所以我才會提出最後我想一個實驗問題它會不會入主Intel這個目前並沒有被討論過"},{"start":338.883,"end":367.123,"text":"所以他如果併購或入主Intel是不是也會要審查呢這個也是要審查的所以目前沒有討論所以都是爆派的就是媒體在講而已其實他們兩個公司一個可以比喻成汽油一個是柴油兩個混在一起這個引擎是不會好的會壞掉的所以你也認同嘛代工跟這整個的研發不能拆開"},{"start":368.901,"end":389.475,"text":"他們想拆開他們是這兩個都是兩個文化是不太一樣因為Intel是單一產品大量製造所以坦白講就我所知他有的地方還在比較手工那我們代工業是會依據客戶的訂單會有一個比較跳動式的生產所以我們大量的自動化在文化上就不太一樣因為時間關係最後結論"},{"start":391.016,"end":399.48,"text":"主委一定要堅定立場我們不希望哪一天在新聞看到讓我們全台灣大家錯愕的結果好嗎 可以嗎可以啊好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":942,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時44分）謝謝主席，本席有請劉主委。"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：徐委員午安。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主委午安。請教主委，台積電赴美設廠審查了嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就我了解還沒有送審，但在送審之前，應該會經過董事會正式的核定，目前董事會還沒有召開。"],["徐委員欣瑩：未來的審查是不是一個過水，還是就是一個形式？不然的話，台積電都已經跟美國總統還有跟我們臺灣總統開記者會？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那只是一個協議，不是法律的依據，法律依據上，還是要回到董事會的核定跟這個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：跟我們投審會的審查？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，跟投審會的審查。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以也沒有說一定定案？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是一個意願，如果董事會大家的意見可以支持，然後政府也同意的時候，它才會付諸實現。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。主委是否曾經說過台積電赴美投資有三大原則──最新技術不會過去、關鍵技術不准過去，還有國家安全優先？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我說過。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以您會堅持這個立場嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那麼台積電到國外投資，尤其到美國，它是否有實行所謂N-1的限制？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：從國家安全優先考量的角度下，是可以用N-1來看這件事情。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這次會不會用這個？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是我給經濟部的建議，原則上應該會。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你給經濟部的建議？那為什麼就在最近，川普總統還有美國的一位發言人，都講：我們以後不用仰賴臺灣了，我們美國就有最新、最好的晶片！本席希望主委未來在投審會的時候一定要堅持立場、原則，我們的護國神山絕對不能沒有變成護國群山，還變成到美國去！就本席所知，台積電現在的兩奈米是在臺灣生產，先前已經在美國投資興建的是四奈米，所以這次去美國最多最多就是到三奈米。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個不能這樣看，還要看在哪一年，它現在的第二個廠結構才蓋好，要整個能夠量產，最快是今年底，然後再蓋第三個廠；第三個廠蓋好，才會進到第四個廠、第五個廠，那都是兩、三年後的事了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以它進到兩奈米，一定是兩、三年後的事了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以目前一定不可能進到兩奈米？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前沒有那麼快，一定是在臺灣的兩奈米運作順暢之後，才有可能往外移動。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，他們董事會通過以後，即將要審查，因為連總統都開了記者會，所以您有沒有去了解台積電投資美國，最近川普還特別強調不是1,650億美元，是2,000億，本席想請問台積電的這個錢要怎麼來？會不會掏空臺灣，丟到美國去？台積電在美國投資的廠，它的資金怎麼來？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：資金怎麼來，目前並沒有在董事會討論過，只是它會在審議委員會裡面做比較細的討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為它的錢一定不夠這麼多，世界各國也不會貸款給它，就只能搬臺灣的錢過去。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不會只有那個，因為它很多資金調度會在美國直接在地調度……"],["徐委員欣瑩：在美國在地的調度？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它一樣會有美國的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是台積電自己內部調度，還是美國會借錢給它？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它會跟美國的金融業，就像很多公司來到臺灣……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你判斷美國金融業會借錢給台積電？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：台積電的信用等級非常的高，沒有人會不想借給它。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們不希望掏空臺灣，台積電是賺世界人的錢來讓臺灣經濟發展，讓我們民眾的財富增加，所以請主委一定要堅定立場。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，有一點我要說明，台積電的產能80%在臺灣，也就是說它80%的投資在臺灣，只有20%到海外。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是我們認為先進技術很重要，技術過去，人才各方面……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我才會提出三個原則。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，我想問它會不會入主Intel？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個目前並沒有被討論過。"],["徐委員欣瑩：它如果併購或入主Intel，是不是也要審查？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個也是要審查的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以目前沒有討論？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：完全沒有討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以都是報派的，就是媒體在講而已？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實他們兩個公司，可以比喻成汽油跟柴油，兩個混在一起，這個引擎是不會好的，會壞掉的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以你也認同嘛！代工跟整個研發不能拆開？他們想拆開？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這兩個文化是不太一樣，Intel是單一產品大量製造，就我所知，它有的地方還在比較手工，我們的代工業是依據客戶的訂單，會有比較跳動式的生產，所以我們是大量的自動化，在文化上就不太一樣。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為時間關係，最後結論，請主委一定要堅定立場，我們不希望哪一天在新聞上看到讓全臺灣錯愕的結果，可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：現在請蘇清泉委員做詢答。蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","現在請黃國昌委員做詢答。黃國昌委員、黃國昌委員不在。","現在請陳冠廷委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 洪部長有請來請部長"},{"start":31.653,"end":55.471,"text":"你委員好部長無安辛苦了這個很多委員今天在勞動部的業務報告裡面質詢都提到台灣工時過長的問題那部長知不知道這個兩天前內政委員會我們在做這個節日紀念日實施這個條例的審查的時候劉世芳部長講說還我七天假是特定團體綁架勞工的假議題您認同這樣的說法嗎我沒有特別看到"},{"start":59.107,"end":76.844,"text":"你沒有特別看到你的次長也在旁邊啦這個你們要好好跟進一下這個題目因為雖然他是內政部主責這之前前一個會期本席在那邊質詢的時候你講說你要尊重主管機關這我當然理解但這個畢竟跟勞工的權益是有關的我希望部長回去了解一下這件事情啦那你現在聽到我是如實轉述喔你覺得這樣說法妥當嗎"},{"start":79.779,"end":94.985,"text":"我想應該是說作為行政部門比較是希望說我們在這個制度面的討論那怎麼樣子在一個公平性一致性的一些原則下面好好討論我猜因為我對不起我真的是沒有看到"},{"start":96.899,"end":118.381,"text":"這個訊息啦剛剛也有很多委員提醒你因為你曾經也跟這個社運界嘛跟很多的團體其實都有很好的關係嘛你也曾經幫他們講話那我今天就不在這個題目上再多逼問你了但是請你好好瞭解因為我認為這樣子的說法對很多的勞工團體特別是現在都還在積極爭取要讓勞工工時下降的這些團體來講這樣的說法是非常非常不公平的是讓人家非常傷心的請部長好好瞭解一下"},{"start":119.102,"end":136.699,"text":"那我就再問啦那這個現在大家在談節日與紀念日實施條例這個修正當然其實到最後就要進入深水區也就是說如果增加國定假日要增加幾天那剛剛委員有幾位委員都有問到這個問題你講說用什麼開放的態度來討論正向積極的角度來面對你有沒有更具體的一點說法"},{"start":139.381,"end":153.872,"text":"我還是要說明因為關於國定假日的相關的制度的法規主管機關是在內政部但這段時間當然有在行政部門跨部門裡面有相關的討論我們也願意參與那所以從勞動部的立場跟角度來說我們覺得當然"},{"start":156.033,"end":174.285,"text":"如果通盤的考慮包括各個領域的一些工作包括工商的情境那尤其是勞工的需求的狀況之下那我們認為國定假日的調整這個議題從政府角度我們認為有正向討論的空間叫正向討論的空間部長你知不知道內政部長那時候講說不會有院版"},{"start":175.154,"end":203.659,"text":"就這個條例不會有院版你知道這個事嗎已經確定了嗎因為你剛剛回答前面委員的時候你講說你們內部有在做溝通不是但他講的應該是要不要立法這件事情對啊但因為國定價格的討論裡面一個事情是國定價格要不要調整跟另外一個是這個相關的制度要不要所以你覺得要不要立法要不要立法那因為這個立法法規的主管機關在尊重內政部那這個關於立法的形式或法規規範的形式的部分我這部分我們尊重內政部"},{"start":204.039,"end":227.298,"text":"現在立法的流程已經在進行,你從勞動部主管機關的立場啦,就是幫勞工講話的立場,你覺得應該剩下幾天多到?我想天數的部分還是一樣,我覺得這部分是要讓人合力討論,對。部長,剛剛我聽了楊耀委員的質詢其實很有感,就是說到底要放國定假日放七天,還是特休放七天,其實你站,我已經提醒你好幾次了,你站在勞動部的主管機關立場,你當然講都好,只要能夠降低工時都好。"},{"start":228.155,"end":250.053,"text":"當然你站在...站在勞動部部長的本位你本來就應該要幫勞工講話最後的決定當然是你們行政團隊要討論這我願意尊重但如果連主管的勞動部站在勞工的立場講話都不敢大聲講出來這樣的聲音的時候那我們真的很懷疑喔我們現在民進黨政府到底有沒有心要解決工時的問題啦來剛剛楊耀文講特休其實我今天想要討論一下這件事情喔"},{"start":250.213,"end":276.041,"text":"所以我們算這個年度總工時台灣當然是所謂的過勞之島但工時其實有分所謂的制度工時跟實際工時實際工時當然含加班等等實際狀況在內那個就超過2000小時很多委員提我就不再提了我們今天在討論的叫做制度工時的狀況因為它跟特休假的安排是有關係的按照勞動基準法57條所謂勞動工作的年資是要以同一事業為限那麼決定特休假能夠有幾天其實跟勞工的年資是掛鉤的"},{"start":277.381,"end":301.838,"text":"那以實務上你這個統計結果112年行政院主計總署事業人力僱傭狀況調查統計結果來綜合分析其實台灣有93.2%的勞工啊服務的年資是在10年以下的為什麼呢 因為大部分勞工是中小企業嘛中小企業的雖然這樣講有一點點難過啦但中小企業的平均壽命其實並沒有非常的長這個換言之我們現在對特休假制度的一個設計啊如果真的能夠達到"},{"start":303.699,"end":323.281,"text":"達到一個一年有30天的特休你要有30年的年資嘛這幾乎是鳳毛麟角大部分的勞工93.2其實都只有10年以下的年資換言之其實實務上台灣勞工實務上特休假大概頂了天大概就15天啦所以按照這樣子的一個比較基準如果我們要跟日本韓國跟新加坡比起來的話其實你可以看到"},{"start":323.661,"end":341.649,"text":"你看後面好像台灣的特休是最多的啊對不對你看我們到30天其他國家都沒有到30天但是實務上是什麼93.2%其實要看圖表的左半邊啊我們這個左半邊的數字好看嗎其實是不好看的年度總工時也是一樣看起來年次越長總工時會降下來但是其實"},{"start":342.569,"end":364.283,"text":"前面我們數字不好看的地方才是93.2%主流勞工現在的待遇我為什麼今天要去提這個我當然希望這個勞動部這邊也針對勞動計算法的修正去增加特休假但第一個我們現在不管是國定假日的法案或者是特休的法案我們都沒有看到院版嘛這第一個第二個即便你現在在勞動計算法這邊去規範特休假的增加"},{"start":365.424,"end":380.691,"text":"你怎麼樣跨越年資的問題現在都沒有辦法所以為什麼我們要回頭去修這個國定假日的法案為什麼我們講要立法就是因為它可以立刻降低叫做制度工時嘛我加了7天的國定假日我的制度工時就是會降低7天的這個工時嘛"},{"start":381.491,"end":407.874,"text":"另外也是因為國定假日它是有社會的集約的反應嘛社會集體放假它也比較容易帶動實際工時的下降所以我必須要講現在大家要去討論修訂這個紀念日與節日實施條例基本上就是因為它又快又準嘛這個圖表告訴你如果加上了七天假我把七天假還給勞工之後你的93.2%的這個區間你的制度年總工時就跟日韓是差不多的水準"},{"start":408.494,"end":427.096,"text":"換言之我們把七天假還給勞工我們也不會因為這樣就比日韓放更多的假頂多跟他差不多而已但是這樣子的一個放假是93.2%的勞工大部分的勞工可以立刻享受到的這個是修特休的盲點但本席完全不反對你們在特休方面也天才家夥因為台灣是過勞之島是一個事實啊"},{"start":427.697,"end":447.63,"text":"我們希望看到的是多重的討論但我也要很遺憾的點出一個現實也就是說不管特休也好 國定假日也好行政端果足不前我們現在去選擇修國定假日是因為他速度快而且馬上有效所以我希望部長不要再只是開放正向的態度經過這樣子的討論之後你要不要再積極一點 再具體一點"},{"start":448.51,"end":463.44,"text":"最後我想其實這段時間跟其他部會在這個議題在國定價值議題上面的討論我們都是都是非常非常樂意一起參與討論的我們從來沒有覺得這是別人的事情但是確實主管是在別的部會所以我們是願意參與討論的我們也積極的參與這些討論"},{"start":467.27,"end":487.576,"text":"那要不要讓他調整?讓台灣的總工時稍微降下來一點?製度工時降下來一點?從勞動部的角度當然都會希望這工時的部分是能夠再降低的我們從勞動部的角度當然是希望再降低的那所以剛才說因為現在討論國定假日的議題的時候我說從勞動部的立場來說我們認為這是有正向討論的空間"},{"start":492.248,"end":508.135,"text":"反正這個題目才剛開始那我提醒部長很多過去時代在街頭上面的戰友是很期待政府有積極作為的他們很快又會在街頭上面集結希望勞動部做好準備我還是不厭其煩的再次提醒你就要站在勞動部的本位"},{"start":508.815,"end":523.625,"text":"去大力的支持勞工這個才是台灣人民會想要看到的好不好勞任部當然是要站在勞工的立場這個當然是要站在勞工的立場還只是正向積極的態度是蠻可惜的啦包括跟相關部會的討論我們當然都是站在勞工的立場好 謝謝啦"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1204,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時40分）謝謝主席，洪部長有請。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安，辛苦了。很多委員今天在質詢勞動部的業務報告時，都提到臺灣工時過長的問題，部長知不知道兩天前內政委員會在審查紀念日及節日實施條例的時候，劉世芳部長說「還我七天假」是特定團體綁架勞工的假議題，你認同這樣的說法嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我沒有特別看到。"],["牛委員煦庭：你沒有特別看到？你的次長也在旁邊，你應該好好跟進這個題目。雖然這是內政部主責，前一個會期本席在那邊質詢的時候，你說要尊重主管機關，這我當然理解，但畢竟這跟勞工的權益有關，我希望部長回去了解一下這件事情。那你現在聽到我如此轉述，你覺得這樣的說法妥當嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我想應該是說作為行政部門，比較希望在制度面的討論，怎麼樣在一個公平性、一致性的原則下好好討論。對不起，我真的沒有看到這個訊息。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，剛剛有很多委員提醒你，你也曾經跟社運界、跟很多團體都有很好的關係，你也曾經幫他們講話，我今天就不在這個題目上再多逼問你，但是請你好好了解。因為我認為這樣子的說法對於很多勞工團體，特別是現在都還在積極爭取讓勞工工時下降的團體，這樣的說法非常非常不公平，讓人非常傷心，請部長好好了解一下。","我就再問，現在大家談紀念日及節日實施條例的修正，當然最後就要進入深水區，比如說國定假日要增加幾天。剛剛有幾位委員都有問到這個問題，你說用開放的態度來討論，正向積極的角度來面對，你有沒有更具體一點的說法？"],["洪部長申翰：我還是要說明，因為國定假日相關制度的法規主管機關是在內政部，這段時間當然在行政部門有跨部會討論，我們也願意參與。從勞動部的立場和角度來說，我們覺得如果通盤考慮，包括各個領域的一些工作，包括工商的情境，尤其是勞工的需求狀況之下，我們認為國定假日的調整這個議題，從勞動部的角度，我們認為有正向討論的空間。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，是正向討論的空間。部長，你知不知道內政部長那時候有說這個條例不會有院版，你知道這個事嗎？已經確定了嗎？因為你剛剛回答前面的委員，說你們內部有在溝通。"],["洪部長申翰：他講的應該是要不要立法這件事。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊。"],["洪部長申翰：但是國定假日的討論，一個是國定假日要不要調整，另外一個是相關的制度要不要立法。"],["牛委員煦庭：你覺得要不要立法？"],["洪部長申翰：這個法規的主管機關在內政部。"],["牛委員煦庭：喔，在內政部。"],["洪部長申翰：關於立法的形式跟法規規範形式的部分，我們尊重內政部。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在立法的流程已經在進行，你從勞動部主管機關的立場，就是幫勞工講話的立場，你覺得應該增加幾天妥當？"],["洪部長申翰：我想天數的部分，我還是一樣覺得要和大家開放討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：開放討論。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，我剛才聽了楊曜委員的質詢其實很有感，到底國定假日要放7天，還是特休放7天。其實我已經提醒你好幾次，你站在勞動部主管機關的立場，當然講都好，只要能夠降低工時都好。當然你站在勞動部部長的本位，本來就應該幫勞工講話，最後的決定當然是你們行政團隊要討論，這我願意尊重。但是連主管的勞動部站在勞工立場，都不敢大聲講出這種聲音的時候，我們真的很懷疑現在民進黨政府到底有沒有心要解決工時的問題。","剛才楊委員講特休，其實我今天想要討論這件事。我們算年度總工時，臺灣當然是所謂的過勞之島。但是工時其實有分所謂的制度工時跟實際工時，實際工時含加班等狀況在內，那個超過2,000小時，很多委員提過，我就不再提了。","我們今天討論制度工時，因為那跟特休假的安排是有關係的，按照勞動基準法第五十七條，所謂「勞工工作年資以服務同一事業者為限」，決定特休假有幾天跟勞工的年資掛鉤。以實務上的統計結果，從112年行政院主計總處事業人力僱用狀況調查統計結果綜合分析來看，其實臺灣有93.2%的勞工服務年資是在10年以下，為什麼？因為大部分勞工是在中小企業，雖然這樣講有點難過啦，但是中小企業的平均壽命其實並沒有非常長。換言之，我們現在特休假制度的設計，如果真的能夠達到一年有30天的特休，要有30年的年資，這幾乎是鳳毛麟角，大部分93.2%的勞工都只有10年以下的年資，換言之，臺灣勞工實際上的特休假大概只有15天。","按照這樣的比較基準，如果我們要跟日本、韓國跟新加坡比，其實你可以看到，你看後面好像臺灣的特休是最多的，對不對？你看我們有30天，其他國家都沒有到30天。但實務上是什麼？93.2%其實是要看圖表的左半邊。左半邊的數字好看嗎？其實是不好看的。年度總工時也是一樣，看起來年資越長，總工時會降下來，但是其實前面數字不好看的地方才是93.2%主流勞工現在的待遇！","我為什麼今天要提這個？我當然希望勞動部針對勞動基準法修正，增加特休假，但第一個，不管是國定假日的法案或是特休法案，我們都沒有看到院版，這是第一點。第二，即便你現在在勞動基準法規範增加特休假，怎麼跨越年資的問題？現在都沒有辦法。我們為什麼要回頭去修國定假日的法案，為什麼我們想要立法？就是因為這樣可以立刻降低制度工時，加了7天的國定假日，制度工時就會降低7天的工時。另外，也是因為國定假日有社會集約的反應，社會集體放假，也比較容易帶動實際工時的下降。","所以我必須講，現在大家討論修訂紀念日及節日實施條例，基本上就是因為它又快又準。這個圖表告訴你，如果加上7天假，把7天假還給勞工之後，93.2%區間的制度年總工時就跟日、韓是差不多的水準。換言之，我們把7天假還給勞工，也不會比日、韓放更多的假，頂多跟他差不多而已。但是這樣子的放假，是93.2%的勞工、大部分的勞工可以立刻享受到的。這是修特休的盲點，但本席完全不反對你們在特休方面也添柴加火。","臺灣是過勞之島，這是一個事實，我們希望看到的是多重的討論，但我也要很遺憾的點出一個現實，不管特休也好，國定假日也好，行政端裹足不前，我們現在選擇修國定假日，是因為它速度快，而且馬上有效。所以我希望部長不要只是持開放正向的態度，經過這樣子的討論之後，你要不要再積極一點、再具體一點？"],["洪部長申翰：我想其實這段時間跟其他部會在國定假日這個議題上面的討論，我們都非常非常樂意參與一起討論的，從來沒有覺得這是別人的事情，但是確實主管機關是在別的部會，所以我們是願意參與討論的，我們也積極的參與這些討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：那要不要讓它調整？讓臺灣的總工時稍微降下來一點？制度工時降下來一點，你覺得有沒有必要？"],["洪部長申翰：從勞動部的角度，當然都會希望工時能夠再降低，從勞動部的角度當然是希望降低的。所以剛剛說現在討論國定假日的議題，從勞動部的立場來說，我們認為這有正向討論的空間。"],["牛委員煦庭：好吧，反正這個題目才剛開始，我會提醒部長，很多過去時代在街頭上的戰友很期待政府有積極作為，他們很快又會在街頭集結，希望勞動部做好準備。我還是不厭其煩地再次提醒你，你要站在勞動部的本位，大力地支持勞工，這才是臺灣人民想要看到的，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：勞動部當然是要站在勞工的立場……"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在如果還只是持「正向積極的態度」，是蠻可惜的啦！"],["洪部長申翰：包括跟相關部會的討論，我們當然都是站在勞工的立場。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝啦！"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請張雅琳委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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有鐵路我們東部的路上大眾交通運輸只有鐵路可以選擇"},{"start":171.432,"end":198.429,"text":"雖然說我們現在票價是同等的但是東西部的交通建設是非常的不平等所以台東的鄉親絕對不是二等的公民所以國發會也是離島建設條例的主管機關離島建設條例第15條之一明定為促進離島地區居民對外的交通便捷凡與台灣本島間對外交通費用應由中央政府編列預算補貼如期補貼票價者經由不得低於其票價30%"},{"start":200.762,"end":224.9,"text":"我想離島建設可以來補貼擁有400億的花東基金應該也可以來補助那本期之前已經跟交通部還有台鐵公司來召開會議我們希望中央如果執意你執意要調漲台鐵票價是不是可以參考我們離島建設條例的精神透過花東基金補助東部居民三成的票價所以在這邊我要具體的請教主委"},{"start":225.62,"end":250.356,"text":"目前花東基金是透過部會或者是縣府提案那未來如果有提送補貼票價的計畫那在我們有明確的裁員也就是花東基金的情況之下國發會願不願意來嚴厲支持讓花東在地居民享有實質的交通平權而不是讓我們花東地區的交通權益雪上加霜 主委"},{"start":252.381,"end":272.97,"text":"任何的需求只要是合法合規那又能夠得到審議委員的同意那國發基金自然會去支持那這個當然就是看我們的審議委員最後的決議包括在司法性跟合規性的部分這個部分是主委是支持的是不是"},{"start":274.731,"end":297.957,"text":"呃只要在這幾個條件下我都一定支持這三個條件下我一定支持所以主委所以真的在這一塊部分真的需要我們國發會有明確的表態因為交通平權這件事情是講了很多年可是目前確實都沒有做到那我們希望能夠在花農基金這塊能夠協助讓我們這件事能夠促成那這邊我就先謝謝主委我想委員您的方向是非常好的"},{"start":298.217,"end":312.562,"text":"但是做到這件事有多條路徑我們也會去同時也會去溝通交通部看看他有沒有可以也有其他的方案對 因為主委如果說交通部台鐵這邊的部分意見我們都相同的話那國防會這邊支持嘛對不對"},{"start":313.616,"end":327.905,"text":"我們還是要看他在法源跟規定上面還有我們委員會的同意好 謝謝主委那不是我們單一可以決定但是我們會樂意來配合看看謝謝主委我就先代替台東的向心來跟主委謝謝謝謝主委謝謝主席好 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梅軒不是用來罵人的啦"},{"start":254.406,"end":258.049,"text":"這是個事實我沒有叫你講不確實的話這句話就不對啦你要叫人家回家不要上班那天你在上媒體專訪看到你自己一百天的表現你十分給自己七分嘛表示你自己也覺得有進步的空間"},{"start":270.777,"end":293.642,"text":"那雖然你是因為802臨危受命但是因為我認為很多勞工對你有很深的期待為什麼因為你自己是社運街頭出身應該是更能體會基層的辛苦那你上任這一百天以來好像已經不是第一次被勞工團體說找不到人去年學位勞團在勞動部的這個地方絕食希望你能夠接見傾聽訴求結果等不到你部長"},{"start":297.723,"end":314.363,"text":"最近勞團喊要降低工時增訂國定假日訴求好像好像你也是以獨不回啦所以不像你做官了你把以前的戰友一腳踢開這樣也不對啊你要面對面溝通啊跟陳仁說明齁我們其實在我們其實前面說過"},{"start":315.624,"end":328.854,"text":"關於徵定國人假的議題我們其實這段時間裡面我們都持續的跟相關部會包括跟行政院在交換意見在傳達相關勞工的心聲這部分我們都有持續的在做那對於這個議題它的法規主管機關不是我們"},{"start":336.26,"end":353.821,"text":"他的法規主管機關是在內政部但我們是願意正向的參與這件事情的討論法規法嘛情理上你要怎麼對待這些基層勞工嘛部長那另外部長你以前待過環團你應該知道每年的世界地球日有一個總統會跟接近環團聽取他們的建言那個叫做環團與總統有約"},{"start":356.664,"end":373.508,"text":"這個活動已經持續21年了跨越藍綠執政的時期環團也覺得很好這是一個很棒的平台能夠跟總統直接面對面來做一些溝通本席建議既然你是社運團體出身你不妨也跟賴總統建議你建立一個勞團與總統有約"},{"start":377.61,"end":382.539,"text":"雖然總統很忙但是每年有一次有個時間讓勞團跟總統見面讓總統有機會接見勞工聽取他們的聲音你覺得這個意見如何?"},{"start":390.177,"end":418.937,"text":"謝謝陳委員的建議我覺得看怎麼樣來增加其實跟勞工團體的討論跟溝通我覺得這些建議都是好的那事實上這段時間我們其實我自己的商人之後其實也跟很多工會團體持續的在做很多的討論跟諮詢最重要你自己是等於是勞運出身嘛這個是那你要隨時就是說幫他們勞工的立場我想你當時臨危受命也應該是你過去的背景嘛所以我希望部長你不要讓勞團找不到你啦"},{"start":419.637,"end":425.908,"text":"就是說不能當部長就不理你過去的戰友我們持續都要跟很多勞團在做討論"},{"start":430.143,"end":452.918,"text":"我知道下面我這個問題是因為很多人都關心過了之前的這個來質詢的委員就業安定基金的使用所以我知道你有回答說這個到底你們自己統計的部分明目不符合就業安定基金的部分還有你這個追查這個錢怎麼追回來這個進度等等我聽到你有回答其他委員說願意把這個資料給他們對不對這樣沒有錯"},{"start":455.52,"end":468.853,"text":"就是在審計部的相關的報告跟認定出來以後那我們是很願意把我們的回覆提供給你知道這件事因為你必須好好做的理由是這一次很多在野黨的立委為什麼會勘緊荷包的理由"},{"start":471.115,"end":490.278,"text":"就是過去被亂用被濫用服用所以這是個事實還有人被收押禁建所以基本上就是說這件事情我覺得你當然要概括承受所以就是說我們要了解這個禁建陳董我跟你說明也因為我們很重視這件事情所以我們才用機制面來提出強化救安基金把關的整體的方案"},{"start":491.799,"end":502.962,"text":"對未來就我們要全力的避免什麼拿來做軌道燈啊那這些事情我們都會全力的避免用機制的方式來避免部長就業安定金的預算你看本席原來有11個提案那我非常注重這件事因為大家在看就業安定金怎麼用那第一點就是如何確保它不被濫用那這個部分因為您親自到辦公室來說明你有答應說要用在第一線要用在服務人民的業務"},{"start":518.925,"end":533.798,"text":"直接服務勞動的業務那我買單啊我買單這個你說我買單那第二個我有告訴過你說大幅增加的預算你要做清楚的說明嘛你的計畫是什麼你要怎麼用對不對那這個部分前幾天勞動部來到辦公室跟我們溝通我們也都接受啦所以11條耶有11個提案我全部按照勞動部的建議去簽名了耶謝謝陳委員我要跟您談就是說"},{"start":546.776,"end":557.126,"text":"現在監督行政部門本來就是我們立委的責任執政黨要好好溝通承諾說我要好好做事把資料清楚的呈現出來不要動輒抹黑在野黨好嗎恐嚇說人民說福利會不見啊會怎麼樣啊就是我也希望說"},{"start":565.674,"end":575.638,"text":"大家不要因為這樣不溝通然後抹黑然後行政跟立法對立這樣好嗎有11個提案我現在都簽了我們非常非常願意跟這個朝野黨團的委員溝通我們非常願意但是"},{"start":582.441,"end":608.274,"text":"如果有些相關的作為其實對於人民的福利或人民受到照顧的狀況會受到影響某個部分我們還是必須讓社會知道不然就是要溝通嘛以前增加很多要講清楚過去大家都是因為過去的做法有疑慮所以這次我們把關就會緊嘛那你就是做一些改變或計畫那大家就買單了我說這是一個很好的例子啊行政跟立法不一定要是對立的啊"},{"start":608.934,"end":613.703,"text":"當然但是各有其責嘛當然所以我就把這個事情做好 好嗎 部長好 謝謝好 謝謝部長好 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1145,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（12時30分）謝謝主席！麻煩部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長好，辛苦你了，現在還是空腹。不久前剛過完國際婦女節，所以我想跟你討論一下女性勞參率的議題。請部長看這個圖，紅色是我們臺灣的線，為什麼比起其他國家，我國女性的勞參率在30歲以後會節節下降呢？你有沒有一個基本的想法？"],["洪部長申翰：可能因為生育或者是進到要照顧家庭的階段。"],["陳委員昭姿：其他的國家就不需要嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：其他國家也有，但是我們確實看到其他國家是呈現一個雙峰的狀況。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長要把這件事放在心上，當然臺灣現在也許要鼓勵婦女生育，但是在目前事實上生育率已經偏低的情況下，這個狀況還繼續存在。部長在國際婦女節當天有宣布為了落實性別平等、共同負擔育兒責任，所以你們有考慮要修正就業保險法，對不對？就是要延長育嬰留職停薪的津貼給付。對這個政策方向，本席一定全力支持，也謝謝部長，但是如果要提高女性的勞參率，除了在經濟上給予援助之外，是不是也要盡力消除職場上的性別歧視？部長你同意嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["陳委員昭姿：很遺憾，貴黨的大總召前天就赤裸裸地示範在職場上的性別歧視，他竟然說：人家叫你盧媽媽，你就該回歸家庭主婦。你認同這句話嗎？部長，你認同這句話嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我想從勞動部來說，我們工作的重點應該是，對於媽媽，我們要怎麼支持，就算當了媽媽……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長、部長……"],["洪部長申翰：就算當了媽媽，還是可以好好在職場工作。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你對於這種沙文主義、沙豬言論，變得這麼軟弱啊，這麼溫柔的呼籲。你當立委的時候……我提醒你一下，2023年民眾黨有一位市議員候選人的造勢活動，他邀請專業舞者來造勢應援，這些舞者身穿空服員的制服，民進黨黨團竟然大動作召開記者會來罵人！當時你還跟著說民眾黨毫無性別意識，消費性別刻板印象，無法想像這個政黨有什麼資格來談性別平等，他們心中的女性還有主體性可言嗎？","部長，你當時對職場的性別歧視非常的憤慨，現在你是勞動部長，怎麼變得這麼溫柔，講不出話來，碰到你們大總召就這樣嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：所以我剛剛跟陳委員說明，從勞動部的工作來說，我們要來協助的是，即便你當了媽媽，怎麼樣能兼顧職場跟家庭照顧，這是勞動部的工作。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長，我跟你說，現在你們每個部會都在哭窮，說媒體宣傳費被我們刪光了，我現在給你一個機會，你來宣揚職場性別平等，你來批評，我跟你保證，你批評柯總召的力道越大，宣傳效果會越好！我現在給你一點時間，你只要講幾句話，抵得上幾百萬的宣傳費，麻煩你講一下，我台詞都替你想好了，你罵民眾黨的話，就是把主詞換成柯總召，麻煩你講一遍。我時間借給你。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員，部會的宣傳效果要好，不是只是靠……"],["陳委員昭姿：這幾百萬就有了，媒體一定報導啊，你不能講一下他嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：不是只是靠罵誰……"],["陳委員昭姿：這個活生生的例子在立法院出現，你講他幾句有問題嗎？你當時怎麼批評別人的？雙標啦！"],["洪部長申翰：所以我說從勞動部的角度，我們的工作……"],["陳委員昭姿：就雙標啦！"],["洪部長申翰：是協助當了媽媽以後，怎麼樣能夠兼顧在職場上就業的權利，這部分是我們的工作。"],["陳委員昭姿：好啦，你從頭到尾都說同樣的話，好了！我知道你說不出來，雙標啦！"],["洪部長申翰：媒宣不是用來罵人的啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：這是個事實，我沒有要你講不確實的話，你叫人家回家，不要上班，這句話就不對了。","那天你上媒體專訪，談到自己100天的表現，滿分10分你給自己7分，表示你自己也覺得有進步的空間。雖然你是因為霸凌案臨危授命，但是我認為很多勞工對你有很深的期待，為什麼？因為你自己是街頭社運出身，應該更能體會基層的辛苦。但是你上任這100天以來，好像已經不是第一次被勞工團體說找不到人，去年12月勞團到勞動部面前絕食，希望你能夠接見、傾聽訴求，結果等不到你。最近勞團喊要降低工時、增訂國定假日的訴求，你好像也是已讀不回。部長，你當官之後，就把以前的戰友一腳踢開，這樣也不對啊，你要面對面溝通啊。"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，我前面說過，關於增訂國定假日的議題，這一段時間裡，我們都有持續跟相關部會，包括跟行政院交換意見，傳達相關勞工的心聲，這部分都……"],["陳委員昭姿：希望你一本初衷，因為你身為勞動部長，人家就是對你有期許嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：這個部分我們都有持續在做。關於這個議題，它的法規主管機關不是我們，法規主管機關是在內政部，但我們願意正向地參與這件事情的討論。"],["陳委員昭姿：法歸法嘛，情理上，你要怎麼對待這些基層勞工？","另外，部長以前待過環團，你應該知道每年的世界地球日總統會接見環團，聽取他們的建言，這個活動叫「環團與總統有約」，這個活動已經持續了21年，跨越藍綠執政時期。環團也覺得很好，這是一個很棒的平台，能夠跟總統直接面對面溝通。本席建議，既然你是社運團體出身，不妨也向賴總統建議，建立一個「勞團與總統有約」，雖然總統很忙，但是每年有一次，有個時間，讓勞團跟總統見面，讓總統有機會接見勞工，聽取他們的聲音。部長，你覺得這個意見如何？"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝陳委員的建議，我們看怎麼來增加跟勞工團體的討論跟溝通，我覺得這些建議都是好的。事實上，我上任之後這段時間，也跟很多工會團體持續做很多討論跟諮詢。"],["陳委員昭姿：最重要的是你自己等於是勞運出身嘛，你要隨時站在幫勞工的立場。我想你當時臨危授命應該也是因為你過去的背景，所以我希望部長不要讓勞團找不到你，不能在你當部長以後就不理你過去的戰友，OK？"],["洪部長申翰：我們持續都在跟很多勞團討論。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我知道下面這個問題很多人都關心過，之前就有委員質詢就業安定基金的使用。我知道你有回答，你們自己統計就業安定基金使用名目不符合的部分，還有這個錢你怎麼追回來和進度等等。我聽到你有回答其他委員，願意把資料給他們，對不對？這樣沒有錯，如果我們有需要。"],["洪部長申翰：在審計部的相關報告跟認定出來以後，我們很願意把我們的回覆提供給……"],["陳委員昭姿：你知道這件事你必須好好做的理由，這次很多在野黨的立委為什麼會看緊荷包，就是因為過去被亂用、濫用、浮用嘛，這是事實，還有人被收押禁見啊。所以基本上這件事情我覺得你當然要概括承受，我們要了解進度。"],["洪部長申翰：我跟陳委員說明，也因為我們很重視這件事情，所以才從機制面提出強化就安基金把關的整體方案，未來要全力避免拿來做軌道燈等，這些事情我們都會全力的避免，用機制的方式來避免。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，就業安定基金的預算本席原來有11個提案，我非常注重這件事，因為大家在看就業安定基金怎麼用。第一點就是如何確保就安基金不被濫用，這部分因為您親自到我的辦公室說明，你有答應要用在第一線，而且用在服務人民的業務，還要嚴格核銷。"],["洪部長申翰：直接服務勞工的業務。"],["陳委員昭姿：那我買單啊，你說的我買單。","第二點，我有告訴你，大幅增加的預算，你要清楚的說明，你的計畫是什麼、你要怎麼用，對不對？關於這部分，前幾天勞動部來辦公室跟我們溝通，我們也都接受了，所以有本席的11個提案全部按照勞動部的建議簽名了。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝，謝謝陳委員支持。"],["陳委員昭姿：我要跟你說的是，監督行政部門本來就是我們立委的責任，執政黨要好好溝通，承諾要好好做事，把資料清楚地呈現出來，不要動輒抹黑在野黨，好嗎？恐嚇人民說福利會不見，或是會怎麼樣，我也希望大家不要因為這樣不溝通，然後抹黑，造成行政跟立法部門對立，這樣好嗎？有11個提案，我現在都簽了，我們兩個好好做個示範。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員，我們非常非常願意跟朝野黨團的委員溝通，我們非常願意。但是如果有些相關的作為，其實對人民的福利或人民受到照顧的狀況會受到影響，在我的部分，我們還是必須讓社會知道。"],["陳委員昭姿：我就說要溝通嘛，要講清楚。"],["洪部長申翰：是，一定會溝通。"],["陳委員昭姿：你的錢增加很多要講清楚，大家都是因為對過去的作法有疑慮，這次我們把關就會緊，那你就是做一些改變或計畫，大家就買單了，我說這是一個很好的例子啊。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：對不對？行政和立法不一定要是對立的。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是各有其責嘛。"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以就把這個事情做好，好嗎，部長？"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請牛煦庭委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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諸位"},{"start":94.611,"end":97.272,"text":"您覺得這個您贊同嗎這我個人是贊同的好 謝謝那我看一下我其實在上一次我有質詢過經濟部那當時有一個案例就是在台東的金輪這個小小的地方有四處就是民間地熱發電廠"},{"start":117.943,"end":146.448,"text":"來去做專探來做投資而且他選擇的全部都是私有地那我們姑且不論他是不是為了要規避公有地要做部落諮商同意但是我有根據當時地方的一個訴求也跟經濟部來表達說應該針對部落諮商同意要有一個行政指引也要有一個爭端協調平台然後呢要有政府投資部落入股"},{"start":147.108,"end":162.956,"text":"以及地熱專區的試辦點辦理公聽會以及新型態的一種夥伴關係的討論那這個部分其實需要錢所以呢我們也就看了一下在我們主責的這個已經有看到"},{"start":163.516,"end":182.412,"text":"在2023年已經匡列了338億多來做公正轉型的一個裁員可是我們看了一下發現說這個地熱是把它歸類到第三項叫做前瞻能源它的公正轉型預算是0理由是說"},{"start":184.013,"end":202.701,"text":"這個已經納入戰略規劃未令編列公正轉型預算喔好那我們再來看看國發基金我們發現關於綠能的部分63項到68項大概都是水利啊太陽能啊電池啊也是沒有地熱好"},{"start":204.002,"end":222.991,"text":"那在這裡我就要特別看了那提到說已經列入戰略行動計畫那戰略行動計畫呢我們看到在前瞻能源因為地熱被歸類到這邊他是提到說要建立原住民利益共享機制單一的窗口再生能源發展條例的訂定增訂地熱專章促進就業機會因此我們來看一下這個"},{"start":228.474,"end":236.681,"text":"你們提到的原住民利益共享機制就是提到說2022年這個賺購費率新增原住民的利益然後費率加成1%那我們看這些民間他是怎麼樣去做所謂的利益共享"},{"start":243.726,"end":268.861,"text":"部落的辦理收穫季他就去捐個10箱啤酒啊20箱個水這樣的一個贊助機制也許這個就是大家想像的利益共享機制那第二個呢我們來看一下提到你們說再生能源發展條例要增訂地熱專章但是只有提到公有土地但實際上大家都在討論地熱它不屬於私有地主它是一個共享的資源"},{"start":270.182,"end":286.993,"text":"再來第三個戰略就是說要單一窗口但實際上我們需要的是政府業者部落融資的四方合作平台來做部落投資部落入股因為在國外就是做這樣的公正轉型基金然後呢去促進民間投資公正轉型"},{"start":288.313,"end":304.102,"text":"那再來第四個問題你們說要促進就業但是這樣的一個所謂的促進就業就是怎麼樣吸引外來的業者但是呢當地就業人才的培育而不是說在自己的土地上做低薪的勞工我要說的是這個種種"},{"start":305.683,"end":327.093,"text":"其實都有很多是我們自己在辦公室的想像但是我很高興因為我有看到夜報說要提到做治理沙盒其中一項就是地熱發電所以呢 主委我在這個地方因為時間很短我就是希望說能夠把這個沙盒去加入做部落回饋機制的一個沙盒計畫還有部落投資入股"},{"start":331.135,"end":336.2,"text":"私有地開發部落同意之際的一個機會為什麼這樣說因為部落公法人原民會也在院長的同意之下今年已經開始選定一些部落要來做部落公法人那這是一個很好的機會那另外呢我也是希望說再怎麼樣我們都希望提出一個地熱公正轉型尤其是對原住民族地區的一個具體工作項目"},{"start":355.738,"end":369.608,"text":"還有呢所謂的國發會國發基金編列地熱的公正轉型的預算那因為時間很短我也沒有辦法提供充裕的時間請您來回答但是我是希望說4月1號我們在那一次的論壇有說要辦一個公聽會所以呢我們也"},{"start":374.411,"end":401.597,"text":"我也言出必行所以在4月1號我們會在立法院辦理一個地熱的公聽會那我希望說那個時候國發會能夠針對這些問題能夠有做出一個好的回應可以嗎好的我想我們會請我們團隊到您辦公室我們具體討論先來做一個討論是不是對因為這個這個其實地熱是我當時我是我放進來的謝謝那主要是在永續會的時候有些委員提出來我覺得這個意見是蠻好的"},{"start":403.177,"end":421.774,"text":"那因為我們未來在地熱的發展是一個主要的方向是我想說把這件事放進來也許會讓事情的推動更容易非常感謝所以我會請我們的團隊規劃一下我們再跟您報告好 謝謝主委您做出這樣的態度謝謝您也謝謝主席謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":915,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時31分）謝謝主席，有請國發會劉主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員午安。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委午安。氣候變遷因應法第三條有提到公正轉型，裡頭有提到原住民族，這個公正轉型的定義，如果根據OECD的解釋就是「永續的就業、產業以及經濟型態進行審慎的計畫與投資」，我知道中央各部會、學者、專家、民間團體公民參與機制蒐整的意見會在訂修後提交給國發會，由國發會整合為國家公正轉型的行動計畫。1月14號，我受國發會、經濟部能源署、環境權保障基金會的邀請出席「臺灣原住民族與地熱論壇」，那整個結論就是希望比照歐美紐澳等國來爭取原住民族地區能源開發的第一桶金，然後也希望臺灣應該要有原住民的地熱政策。請問主委，這個您贊同嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我個人是贊同的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。其實上一次我有質詢過經濟部，當時有一個案例，就是在臺東金崙這個小小的地方，有四處由民間地熱發電廠在做鑽探、做投資，而且他們選擇的全部都是私有地，我們姑且不論他是不是為了要規避公有地要做部落諮商同意，但是我有根據當時地方的訴求跟經濟部表達過，應該針對部落諮商同意有一個行政指引，也要有一個爭端協調平台，然後要有政府投資、部落入股以及地熱專區的試辦點、辦理公聽會和新型態夥伴關係的討論，那這個部分其實需要錢，所以我們也就看了一下，在我們主責的部分，2023年已經匡列了三百三十八億多做為公正轉型的財源，可是我們發現地熱是歸類到第3項，叫做前瞻能源，它的公正轉型預算是零，理由是這個已經納入戰略規劃，未另編列公正轉型預算。那我們再來看看國發基金，我們發現關於綠能的部分即第63項到第68項，大概都是水力呀、太陽能呀、電池呀，也是沒有地熱。在這裡我就要特別來討論了，既然說已經列入戰略行動計畫，地熱被歸類前瞻能源這一項，而戰略行動計畫則提到地熱能要建立原住民利益共享機制、單一窗口、再生能源發展條例增訂地熱專章、促進就業機會。首先我們來看一下你們提到的原住民利益共享機制，就是說2022年的躉購費率新增原住民的利益分享，然後費率加成1%，那我們再來看這些民間廠商是怎麼樣去做所謂的利益共享？部落辦理收穫季，就去捐個10箱啤酒、20箱的水這樣的贊助方式，也許這個就是大家想像的利益共享機制。第二個是你們說再生能源發展條例要增訂地熱專章，但是只有提到公有土地，可是實際上大家都在討論地熱它不屬於私有地主，它是一個共享的資源。第三個說要設單一窗口，但實際上我們需要的是政府、業者、部落、融資的四方合作平台來做部落投資、部落入股，因為在國外就是做這樣的公正轉型基金，然後去促進民間投資公正轉型。第四個問題是你們說要促進就業，但是這樣一個所謂的促進就業並不只是設法吸引外來的業者，應著重當地就業人才的培育，而不是說在自己的土地上做低薪的勞工。我要說的是這些種種其實很多都是我們自己在辦公室的想像，但是我很高興，因為我有看到業報提到說要治理沙盒，其中一項就是地熱發電，所以主委，我在這個地方質詢，就是希望能夠在沙盒中試驗部落回饋機制、部落投資入股、私有地開發部落同意機制，這是一個機會，為什麼這樣說？因為原民會在院長的同意之下，今年已經開始選定一些部落要來做部落公法人，這是一個很好的機會。另外，我也希望說再怎麼樣，我們都希望提出一個地熱公正轉型，尤其是對原住民族地區的一個具體工作項目，還有就是國發會國發基金編列地熱的公正轉型預算。因為發言時間很短，我也沒有辦法提供充裕的時間請主委來回答，但是我們在那一次的論壇有說要辦一個公聽會，我也言出必行，所以在4月1號，我們會在立法院辦一個地熱的公聽會，我希望那個時候國發會能夠針對這些問題做出一個好的回應。可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，我們會請我們的團隊到您辦公室具體討論。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：先來做一個討論，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，其實當時地熱是我放進去的，主要是在永續會的時候，有些委員提出來，我覺得這個意見滿好的，因為我們未來在地熱的發展是一個主要的方向，所以我想把這件事放進來也許會讓事情的推動更容易，我會請我們的團隊規劃一下再跟您報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主委您做出這樣的態度，謝謝您，也謝謝主席。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["主席：我們現在請黃建賓委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","邱志偉","王鴻薇","賴瑞隆","蔡易餘","林倩綺","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","陳冠廷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00003"}}},{"id":"159395","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159395","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b84c5a0c146bddbdf56ce92bacf16b99bfdee5d615e4ae620b810c634bed58f9205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:26:03 - 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軟砂跟硬砂所以要防止無人機但是無人機我們知道事實上還是有很多科技他們也都是在進步所以就是說無人機為了防止說我們之前說要用電波"},{"start":75.399,"end":91.877,"text":"用更強的頻率把無人機讓它失去控制讓它失去了遠端的控制但是他們也發展出我用光纖的我現在無人機我只要來駕一條線"},{"start":93.988,"end":110.13,"text":"就是說他也有用這種,也有用AI他直接去了,他就變任務型的無人機,他自己辨別所以我們在做反制無人機的時候,是不是也要有相對應針對這一些不同的,然後我們要有不同的一些反制的作為"},{"start":111.639,"end":129.281,"text":"跟委員報告,我大概大致上說明一下,詳細部他們可以再做細部的說明大概這樣就是說,無人機的反制,剛剛已經講了,混成軟煞跟硬煞那無人機呢,它又有各型的無人機,有的無人機是比較昂貴的無人機,比如說"},{"start":130.282,"end":156.36,"text":"像美國這種MQ-9B這種一架它就要一億多美金這樣的穩無人機那也有一種是非常小型的無人機那你這種不同的無人機的應對它的反制你要有不同的思維我比如舉個例子伊朗它發射那個Shahid這樣的一個低成本的無人機那以色列為了要反制它那發揮了這個它的鐵穹系統可是它的"},{"start":156.86,"end":181.32,"text":"它的成本可能高過於它這個狹黑的整個發射過來的十倍那你這樣子 你說你用一個高的一個飛濫的防禦系統去應對它的低價的這個無人機那這個就是我們要思考在我們這個面對國土防衛作戰的時候我們如何來去思考"},{"start":182.486,"end":202.673,"text":"共軍他可能運用無人機的作戰模式那我們要如何用一個有效的方式來進行這個無人機的反制我們不可能拿一個造價可能昂貴的比如說隨便講說雄三雄二去應對他的那個一二三型的無人機那這樣的話那我們一下飛彈就被他消耗光了"},{"start":203.133,"end":218.171,"text":"所以這個的時候會有很多這種對於無人機的反制它不斷地 現在無人機也不斷地在進步那反制無人機的技術也不斷地在進步這個包括了包括甚至已經講到雷射的可能性"},{"start":219.572,"end":243.201,"text":"還有用低成本的這種類似用無人機反制無人機的這種可能性那也有可能當然運用一些軟砂的手段來進行干擾這些我想都是在我們應該要研討的範圍之內那這一塊的部分呢這個是大家正在大家都在加強啦所以我延續你剛才講的事實上"},{"start":245.422,"end":262.037,"text":"我要強調的就是這個重點就是說我們在反制無人機我們第一個就是我們的反制成本要下降反制成本要下降的話可能就是說如果剛剛講到的用小型無人機來做反制那我們就要有更多的小型無人機"},{"start":263.479,"end":275.306,"text":"我們必須要有一個一定的數量就是說對方如果用這個群峰的無人機來的時候我們是不是有更多小型無人機低成本的然後可以去做數量上然後去阻擋我們的無人機自己去阻擋"},{"start":279.268,"end":304.96,"text":"所以我的意思是說那這些都是需要產業的投入所以我們是不是在軍備局我們應該要跟很多開始一些無人機的廠商然後請他們去投入類似這樣反制無人機然後把數量衝出來然後我們要有一定的數量事實上這些廠商就是需要我們國防部要去做他們背後的一個支撐那是不是這部分要請部長"},{"start":307.333,"end":334.626,"text":"對對跟委員報告我想中科院也好或者軍備局也好那我們現在最主要跟坦白講也跟美方的技術合作也好我們目標都是在於之後不管是無人機或者反制無人機這個部分我們都要想辦法如果您講的用無人機反制無人機那或者無人機本身它也有可能各種各款的無人機有的是低成本的有的比較高成本"},{"start":335.066,"end":363.964,"text":"有的是距離比較短的有的是打反裝甲的有的是打箭的那這些相關的這些部分我們都要主要主要主要要建立一個國防自主的產能因為要建構一個國防自主產能在一旦有戰時的時候我們才有辦法因為無人機的消耗量是相當大的在烏克戰爭就可以看得出來所以烏克蘭已經建立了一個自存量能它每個月要生產的架數是幾萬架以上"},{"start":364.604,"end":391.107,"text":"所以我們也要建立這樣的產能這是我們最重要的一個核心那這個部分要跟這個民間的力量做結合所以這個部分是軍民要做整合那中科院也現在要釋出這些相關他已經發展出來的一些這些關鍵性的技術那他把它釋出讓民間可以來生產"},{"start":393.249,"end":416.959,"text":"這樣子的一個自主能量產生透過我們軍方本來研發能量再加上民間他們創新的能量一起做結合這樣子的無人機的自主產能才能夠建構出來部長所以現在事實上我要強調就是產量的問題就是說如果我們認為說一個技術是可以成熟可以量產事實上我們現在整個民間他們投入無人機的研發他們就是卡在"},{"start":417.555,"end":437.369,"text":"他們的善用不夠,善用不夠就會涉及到接下來他們整個空間這個我也跟委員特別報告一下,這個就是涉及到說一方面是我們軍方的採購的量能有一定的極限那我們可能也要,因為無人機發展也是迭代發展,所以我們要細水長流,剛剛中委員提到細水長流"},{"start":438.169,"end":457.687,"text":"那另外當然就是說其他各部會的無人機的運用也要能夠發展出來那我們現在已經請中間做一個軍民共用的一個共版的一個規格那只要這些民用的無人機一旦到了戰時我們再改裝加上一些軟體然後加上一些火攻的"},{"start":459.029,"end":488.208,"text":"我們就可以成為一個軍用的這是第二個第三個就是我們要打入國際的供應鏈我想這個部分美方也特別的重視也就是說美方要建構是一個去紅化的供應鏈那去紅化之後就要結合各個國家的一個優勢然後把將這個優勢發揮那我們如果能夠打入這個國際供應鏈規模才能夠起的來我們不一定要造整機可是我們如果有一些關鍵的技術我們把這些關鍵的技術跟另外的國家做結合"},{"start":488.728,"end":516.391,"text":"那這樣的話我們這些關鍵引擎組件就有一定的在國際供應量就有一定的一個規模量那這個公司就願意去投入然後又願意更研發然後再更精進所以這些都已經是在進行事當中事實上現在很多國家都已經過來都來進行這些無人機跟反制無人機的這些大家共同來合作"},{"start":517.253,"end":518.362,"text":"那國防部這邊就再繼續努力"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":811,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時26分）謝謝主席，有請部長、軍備局局長以及國家中山科學研究院副院長。"],["主席：有請部長、局長、副院長。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，從烏俄戰爭的一個借鑑，我們知道未來如果真的發生戰事，無人機幾乎在整個戰線中會變得越來越重要，所以我們在思考無人機這個產業的時候，也就是國軍要怎麼布建無人機這個部分，我覺得還有一塊是很重要的，就是怎麼反制無人機──對無人機的反制。這個反制可能就包括偵蒐，你要知道無人機來了；第二個就是偵蒐到了，你要怎麼去防止無人機再繼續接近……"],["顧部長立雄：有軟殺跟硬殺。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，有軟殺跟硬殺，所以要防止無人機接近；但我們知道無人機很多的科技也都一直在進步，為了防止無人機接近，我們之前說要用電波，用更強的頻率，讓無人機失去遠端的控制，但是他們現在也發展出透過光纖來連接無人機，還有AI無人機可以自己辨別，直接變成任務型的無人機。所以我們在反制無人機的時候，是不是也要針對不同的態樣，然後有不同的反制作為？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我大概說明一下。詳細內容，他們可以再做細部的說明。剛剛已經講了，無人機的反制分成軟殺跟硬殺。無人機有各型的無人機，有的是比較昂貴的無人機，像美國這種MQ-9B一架就要一億多美金；也有一種非常小型的無人機。對於不同的無人機，它的應對與反制，要有不同的思維。我舉個例子，像伊朗他們發射Shahed這樣一個低成本的無人機，以色列就用它的鐵穹系統來反制，可是這個鐵穹系統的成本可能高過於Shahed整個發射過來的十倍。像這種用一個高價的飛彈防禦系統去應對這個低價的無人機，這就是我們要思考的。在我們面對國土防衛作戰的時候，我們得思考共軍可能運用無人機的作戰模式，我們要用什麼樣有效的方式來進行無人機的反制？我們不可能拿造價昂貴的，比如雄三、或雄二去應對他那個一二三型的無人機，這樣的話，我們的飛彈一下就被消耗光了。現在的無人機不斷的在進步，反制無人機的技術也不斷在進步，甚至已經講到比如雷射的可能性，還有用低成本類似無人機反制的這種可能性，當然也有可能運用一些軟殺的手段來進行干擾，這些都在我們應該要研討的範圍之內，這個部分大家也都在加強。"],["蔡委員易餘：本席延續部長剛才說的，事實上，我要強調的就是這個重點，我們在反制無人機的時候，第一個就是反制成本要下降，反制成本要下降的話，可能就像剛剛講到的用小型無人機來做反制，那麼我們就要有更多的小型無人機，就必須要有一定的數量，如果對方用群蜂無人機過來，我們是不是有更多數量低成本的無人機去阻擋？而這些都需要產業的投入，所以軍備局是不是應該開始跟很多無人機的廠商，請他們投入類似這樣的反制無人機，然後把數量衝出來，我們要有一定的數量，事實上，這些廠商也需要我們國防部做他們背後的支撐。這部分是不是要請部長……"],["顧部長立雄：對，跟委員報告，我想中科院也好，軍備局也好，或是跟美方的技術合作也好，不管是無人機或反制無人機的部分，我們都要想辦法。就像您講的用無人機反制無人機，或是無人機本身也有各種各款的無人機，有的是低成本的，有的比較高成本，有的是距離比較短的，有的是打反裝甲的，有的是打艦的，相關的這些部分，我們都要建立國防自主的產能，一旦發生戰事的時候，我們才有辦法應對，因為無人機的消耗量相當大，在烏俄戰爭中就可以看得出來，所以烏克蘭已經建立了一個自存量能，他們每個月要生產的是幾萬架以上，所以我們也要建立這樣的產能，這是我們最重要的一個核心。這個部分要跟民間的力量結合，所以軍民要做整合，中科院現在也要釋出他們已經發展出來的一些關鍵性技術，讓民間可以來生產。這樣一個自主能量產生，透過軍方本來研發的能量，再加上民間創新的能量，一起做結合，無人機的自主產能，才能夠建構出來。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我要強調就是產量的問題，如果我們認為一個技術是成熟的，可以量產的，事實上民間現在投入無人機的研發就是卡在他們的產量不夠，產量不夠就涉及到接下來的整個……"],["顧部長立雄：這部分我要跟委員特別報告一下，這個就涉及到，一方面是我們軍方採購的量能有一定的極限，因為無人機的發展也是迭代發展，所以我們要細水長流，剛剛鍾委員也提到細水長流；另外就是其他部會的無人機的運用，也要能夠發展出來，我們現在已經請中科院做出一個軍民共用的共版規格，一旦到了戰時，只要將這些民用的無人機改裝，加上一些軟體及火攻的部分，就可以成為軍用的無人機，這是第二個。第三個就是我們要打入國際的供應鏈，美方對這部分也特別的重視，也就是說，美方要建構的是一個去紅化的供應鏈；去紅化之後，就要結合各個國家的優勢，然後來發揮這樣的優勢，我們如果能夠打入這個國際供應鏈，規模才能夠起得來。我們不一定要造整機，可是我們如果有一些關鍵的技術，把這些關鍵的技術跟另外的國家做結合，這樣的話，我們這些關鍵零組件在國際供應鏈上就有一定的規模量，這個公司就願意去投入，更願意去研發，然後更精進，這些都已經在進行之當中。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是環環相扣啦！"],["顧部長立雄：對。事實上，現在很多國家都已經在進行無人機跟反制無人機的合作。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，國防部這邊就再繼續努力。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡委員，謝謝部長。","已登記質詢的委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢。報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有林憶君委員、蘇清泉委員跟王鴻薇委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。本日委員口頭質詢，未及答復部分或要求補充資料者，也請相關單位再以書面提供。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}},{"id":"159394","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159394","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b813bc25525753479fcea595bacfac0e47dee5d615e4ae620b07ff25990a71b8fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"12:24:44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我們有請國發會主委 劉主委"},{"start":25.714,"end":52.052,"text":"主委好我還是想要針對促轉基金這個問題持續的跟主委做一些釐清雖然我們昨天有做一些討論不過我想要再確認幾件事情就是說因為我們昨天在講促轉基金這個東西您有提到說會有一個平台讓大家可以直接來提案我想確認一下就是說因為過去促轉基金的運作方式都是部會去跟促轉基金申請申請那其實"},{"start":53.053,"end":77.826,"text":"我們昨天就是講嘛就是它這些用途其實都非常的重複那我現在要提的就是當這個案子我昨天講的這個案子喔如果我們有一個台灣也要做一個類似這樣子的經驗館好了可是這裡面可能涉及的是有博物館展場是文化部如果大家覺得說我們應該要來收集兒童的聲音就像猶太博物館之前也是收集兒童的聲音嘛"},{"start":78.726,"end":96.024,"text":"但這件事情又是主管機關又是衛福部那如果有人大家會想說我外面想要做一個遊戲場主管機關好像又是內政部那請問當民間有一個這樣子的想法的話他到底要怎麼去進行這個平台或是這個流程大概是什麼可不可以請主委詳細說明一下"},{"start":97.526,"end":118.204,"text":"好的,就我了解了,當然也許我們局長會有再補充,就我了解,這是一個整合的案子,進來會先進我們國發會,那國發會會診之後我們會送進我們的委員會,然後委員是由政府跟民間委員所組成的,他們會來核定這個案子,就我的了解是這樣。還是請局長詳細的說明好了,謝謝。"},{"start":121.131,"end":135.1,"text":"謝謝委員關注那目前我們規劃要建置的這個平台除了可以申請可以公告我們的聯繫傳口跟提出申請案之外我們也特別會設置一個申請的專區那如果有跨部會的話我們會透過會審機制來"},{"start":138.002,"end":167.299,"text":"综合各部会的合作另外就会提到我们的基金管理委员会来做最后的审议所以这个流程就是说假设我今天提的这个案子我们就依循档案局下面的一个申请窗口把我的企划我的想法送到档案局那档案局不会做任何的审查就直接会看他觉得哪个部会比较适合就把这个案子分到那个部会吗是这样吗还是我们会看这个案子的性质还有它的额度"},{"start":167.799,"end":190.172,"text":"好那因为会涉及到那个各部会的专业的判断因此假设是单一的部会我们会直接请这个部会来评估这个案子有没有重复以及是不是放进我们的未来的计划如果是跨部会的话我们会尽情会审之后初步归纳一些初审的意见然后再提报到我们的基金管理会这边来做最后的意见"},{"start":190.832,"end":216.941,"text":"這兩件事情我這樣聽起來有兩如果說今天他非常明確是單一部會的話就是你們收到案子後就直接派發到那個部會嘛確認沒有重複之後就會進到後面的這些審查的部會自己送到促短基金的委員會來做審查嘛對不對好但是如果今天是跨部會像以這個例子來說他跨了這麼多部會那你們要如何的去判斷這到底要做分到哪一個單位呢會不會每個單位都說這不屬於我的那這件事應該怎麼辦"},{"start":217.701,"end":239.807,"text":"假設是屬委員所舉這個例子您提到有相關的部會那這些部會都會是我們邀請來談同時我們會找行政院的人權處以及主計總處等等我們會來會商它的可行性已經有沒有這個重複那另外這個整個因為如果是大案子我們會最後會提報到基金管理委會這邊來做最後的審議"},{"start":241.267,"end":253.052,"text":"因為同時也想跟委員補充報告的就是在這個時候抱歉我先確認一下就是說在他送到基金管理委員會之前還不會確認是在哪一個部會對不對我們會建議我們會建議給委員參考所以等於是說好今天呢我們有這麼多不同部會我們會找他們一起來討論討論之後你們有檔案局這邊會建議一個單位"},{"start":264.457,"end":268.461,"text":"我們會建議方案給委員 提報到委員會來做討論所以這東西最後就是透過促轉基金的審查委員來決議這個案子到底要不要派到哪一個部會那到底是要多少預算對不對是在這個委員會裡面來處理那我想再確認一件事情就是說在額度的部分因為你剛有提到這個額度那這個額度原本的上限是設定多少呢"},{"start":289.101,"end":309.979,"text":"我们目前对于各部会提报的预算并没有上限民间提案的预算目前规划上也没有打算有上限那刚刚提到额度的部分是什么额度的部分指的是它的核定的程序我们目前有一个给基金管理会的国发会议院是管理机关如果是200万以下我们在这个"},{"start":310.399,"end":314.522,"text":"流程裡面可能這個主委這邊是召集人主委核定了之後我們就可以請部會來執行假設是高於這個額度我們就必須要經過基金管理會事先的審查那剛剛如果是200萬以下我們要事後跟基金管理會做備查"},{"start":326.79,"end":355.869,"text":"超過兩百萬就對了好 再問最後一個問題就是如果說我想確認一下就是說在基金委員會的部分會不會遇到那個部會不願意承接的狀態我想這個要透過協調這個協調會是由誰來處理呢基金管理會就是委員會這邊是有足夠的職權來做這件事情嗎或者如果我們有需要的話也許可以透過行政協調的部分行政協調因為行政院的這個仍然是有業務單位在處理所以會透過可能到時候會請政委來協調對不對也有可能"},{"start":360.371,"end":377.899,"text":"目前我們文化部其實有設置國家人權博物館委員提到了這個例子目前在人權博物館裡面其實它有相關的一些計畫在推動也有申請促轉基金來做推動我想這個只是我舉的一個例子其實國外的案例其實是非常非常多"},{"start":378.639,"end":395.193,"text":"那到底他是不是可以用國家人權管的預算因為其實國家人權管的補助經費相當的少在這一次的預算砍了之後就更少了所以要他來做這件事情其實相當的困難所以才會希望土土短期進來更多的開放然後讓民間的力量可以進來謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":879,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時24分）謝謝主席！我們有請國發會主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員午安。"],["張委員雅琳：主委好。我還是想要針對促轉基金這個問題持續的跟主委做一些釐清，雖然我們昨天有做一些討論，不過我想要再確認幾件事情。我們昨天在講促轉基金這個東西時，您提到會有個平台讓大家可以直接來提案，我想確認一下，因為過去促轉基金的運作方式都是部會去跟促轉基金申請，其實我們昨天有講到就是它這些用途其實都非常的重複，我現在要提的就是，當我昨天講的這個案子，就是如果我們臺灣也要做一個類似這樣子的紀念館，這裡面可能涉及有博物館展場，這部分是文化部主管，又或者大家覺得應該要來蒐集兒童的聲音，就像那個猶太博物館，之前也是蒐集兒童的聲音，這部分的主管機關又是衛福部，如果大家想在外面做一個遊戲場，主管機關好像又是內政部，請問當民間有一個這樣子的想法的話，到底要怎麼去進行？相關流程大概會是什麼？可不可以請主委詳細說明一下？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我先就我瞭解做說明，當然也許我們局長可以再補充。就我瞭解，這是一個整合的案子，案子進來會先進國發會，國發會彙整之後，會送進由政府跟民間所組成的委員會來核定這個案子，就我的瞭解是這樣。"],["張委員雅琳：還是請局長詳細說明好了。謝謝！"],["林局長秋燕：謝謝委員關注，目前我們規劃要建置的這個平台，除了可以公告我們的聯繫窗口跟提出申請案之外，我們也會特別設置一個申請的專區，如果有跨部會的話，我們會透過會審機制來綜合各部會的合作，另外就會提到我們的基金管理委員會來做最後的審議。"],["張委員雅琳：我確認一下，所以這個流程就是假設我今天要提這個案子，我就依循檔案局下面的一個申請窗口，把我的企劃、我的想法送到檔案局，但檔案局不會做任何的審查，直接看它覺得哪個部會比較適合，就把這個案子分到那個部會，是這樣嗎？"],["林局長秋燕：我們會看這個案子的性質還有它的額度，因為會涉及到各部會的專業判斷，因此假設是單一的部會，我們會直接請該部會來評估這個案子有沒有重複，以及是不是放進我們未來的計畫；如果是涉及跨部會的話，我們會敬請會審之後，初步歸納一些初審的意見，然後再提報到我們的基金管理會這邊來做最後的審議。"],["張委員雅琳：這樣聽起來是兩件事情，如果說今天的案子非常明確是單一部會，你們收到案子後就直接派發到那個部會，確認沒有重複之後就會進到後面的這些審查的程序，就是部會自己送到促轉基金的委員會來做審查，對不對？"],["林局長秋燕：是。"],["張委員雅琳：但如果今天是涉及跨部會的，以上述這個例子來說，它跨了這麼多部會，那你們要如何去判斷這到底要分到哪個單位呢？會不會每個單位都說這不屬於我的？那這件事情該怎麼辦？"],["林局長秋燕：假設是委員所舉這個例子，您提到涉及相關的部會，那麼這些部會我們都會邀請來談，同時會找行政院的人權處以及主計總處等等來會商它的可行性以及有沒有重複。另外，如果是大案子，我們最後會提報到基金管理會這邊來做最後的審議。同時想跟委員補充報告的就是……"],["張委員雅琳：抱歉！我先確認一下，就是說在案子送到基金管理委員會之前，還不會確認是在哪一個部會，對不對？"],["林局長秋燕：我們會建議給委員參考。"],["張委員雅琳：等於是說有這麼多不同部會，我們會找他們一起來討論，討論之後你們檔案局這邊會建議一個單位給委員？"],["林局長秋燕：我們會提出建議方案，然後提報到委員會這邊來做討論。"],["張委員雅琳：所以最後就是透過促轉基金的審查委員來決議這個案子到底要派到哪個部會、到底是要多少預算，是在這個委員會裡面處理，對不對？"],["林局長秋燕：是。"],["張委員雅琳：我想再確認一件事情，就是額度的部分，因為你剛剛有提到額度，那這額度原本的上限是設定多少？"],["林局長秋燕：我們目前對於各部會提報的預算並沒有上限，對民間提案的預算，目前規劃上也沒有打算有上限。"],["張委員雅琳：那你剛剛講到額度的部分是指什麼？"],["林局長秋燕：額度的部分指的是它的核定程序，因為國發會是管理機關，如果是200萬元以下，在這個流程裡面，可能主委是召集人，主委核定了之後，我們就可以請部會來執行，然後事後跟基金管理會做備查；假設是高於這個額度，程序上就必須要經過基金管理會事先的審查。"],["張委員雅琳：再問最後一個問題，就是說在基金委員會的部分，會不會遇到有部會不願意承接的狀態？"],["林局長秋燕：這會透過協調。"],["張委員雅琳：這個協調會是由誰來處理？"],["林局長秋燕：基金管理會。"],["張委員雅琳：委員會這邊有足夠的職權來做這件事情嗎？"],["林局長秋燕：如果我們有需要的話，也許可以透過行政協調，因為行政院對這個仍然是有業務單位在處理。"],["張委員雅琳：所以可能到時候會請政委來協調，對不對？"],["林局長秋燕：也有可能。可不可以再用一點點時間補充，就是文化部其實有設置國家人權博物館，委員提到的這個例子，目前在人權博物館裡面其實有相關的一些計畫在推動，也有申請促轉基金來做推動。"],["張委員雅琳：這個只是我舉的一個例子，國外的案例其實是非常非常多，那到底它是不是可以用國家人權館的預算，因為其實國家人權館的補助經費相當的少，在這一次的預算砍了之後又更少了，所以要它來做這件事情其實是相當的困難，因此才會希望促轉基金能有更多的開放，然後讓民間的力量可以進來。謝謝！"],["林局長秋燕：謝謝委員！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝！"],["主席：我們現在請伍麗華委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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漢族朋友也好的勞工朋友來投訴他說遇到了職災要打電話給我們的勞保局 要確認申請的事宜電話怎麼打都打不進去 有些人打了一個禮拜 有些人打了大概半個月才接通那這樣的狀況呢 我知道我們勞保局同仁也是非常的無奈"},{"start":64.235,"end":71.605,"text":"即使增派了公讀生來增加了協助但是可不可是還沒有辦法解決問題請問部長怎麼解決你有掌握現在的現況嗎"},{"start":76.125,"end":103.241,"text":"委員好非常謝謝委員關心的確勞保局因為之前我們在給付的案量上大增所以在人力上面以及民眾要詢問的電話量比較多在這一部分的話因為隨著案量慢慢比較趨緩所以最近我們在接通剛才提到的民眾要打電話部分的話已經有做了一些改善那委員提到的我們一定會特別再留意沒有趨緩喔如果有趨緩的話我們辦公室還不會接到這麼多的投訴部長您了解一下好不好"},{"start":107.724,"end":128.221,"text":"因為我知道你來自基層這個問題不是很大很小只是接通電話的問題然後因為如果說你沒有接到電話一個禮拜15天其實對最辛苦的勞工因為辛苦的勞工大概家裡面一個人一個人做事可能就要養全家他一旦發生了事情的時候呢後續就很很大的問題好這個問題什麼時候能夠解決"},{"start":132.284,"end":153.804,"text":"我們看可不可以兩週討論一下好 兩週討論之下那第二個問題也很快勞保局在處理職災申請的作業程序還有它的期限明顯變得很長我剛剛講過一人職災全家就受災許非常多的勞工背負養家活口的重責大任部長應該比我更清楚"},{"start":154.284,"end":171.023,"text":"他遇到職災的時候他就沒有辦法工作然後家庭就陷入了非常大的困頓然後呢日後還要碰到什麼治療復健費用他不僅僅是這個沒有了工作沒有薪水還有復健還有所謂的治療的工作"},{"start":171.583,"end":182.512,"text":"我知道講到這個部長你可能會告訴我說其實呢我們勞動部有相關的規定是可以保障勞工的權益像是他可以申請職災傷病給付對吧但是部長你知道嗎實務上面從發生職災到勞保局認定職災的相關補償的給付這需要花費多久的時間"},{"start":199.104,"end":224.029,"text":"跟委員做報告因為剛剛有提到因為我們之前在COVID-19期間的確案量我們本來一年大概14萬件後來增加到大概將近我們審核235萬件所以剛才提到我們在審核時效上也在這邊就是我們的確有整個是有比較那去年的案件量因為比較恢復健恢復正常所以我們最新的統計數據我們平均的一個天數來到了大概是40天可是如果他沒有特別的異常案件"},{"start":224.389,"end":248.862,"text":"就不需要再查證這個天數我們大概可以到21天沒有 據我的了解所以你希望是縮短20天還是多少我們一定會把這個時間能夠盡快讓他能夠好我要在部長您知道他的回答了有幾個問題因為一定是有一個SOP嘛對不對那這個SOP呢當我們勞保局受理勞工的傷病給付申請之後呢一審會"},{"start":250.475,"end":275.01,"text":"病例的審查然後這是因果關係啊因為我們的勞保局他要認定是不是可以成立所謂的職災的程序這要耗費很長的時間你剛剛聽到了他說前面因為COVID-19可是COVID-19只是一個藉口當然事實上現在要認定這個是非常耗費時間的這也是人力不足"},{"start":275.49,"end":293.273,"text":"所以請問一下部長你要怎麼樣來趕快解決這個SOP然後把時間把它縮短跟文說沒有其實對面有兩個層次的問題第一個層次還是當然還是跟人力的資源有關這是一個第二個其實我們近這段時間其實也一直在檢討就是包括假設"},{"start":294.615,"end":311.312,"text":"怎麼樣如何更以職災勞工為核心在友善職災勞工的前提之下重新來設計其實我們可以協助職災勞工相關的措施跟流程這事情其實我們也在檢討中那我們最近其實也找了一些專家找了一些學者在討論這件事情請問什麼時候會解決"},{"start":314.355,"end":329.703,"text":"可能還需要一點時間因為快速好不好不知道為什麼因為辛苦的勞工不能等是當他一旦家裡發生的狀況之後後面還有那麼多的事情要處理那不是雪上加霜了嗎"},{"start":330.083,"end":353.128,"text":"是因為我們現在在規劃包括他的通報的流程包括他可能申請給付等等等相關的問題我們希望這個流程你從接電話開始就一直到你的審核認定為自災認定到這個勞工他可以接受到這樣子的一個付款跟資源你大概要花多久的時間我覺得我們來盡量來討論盡量是多少好不好"},{"start":354.229,"end":365.279,"text":"我可能現在沒有我可能因為這真的現在還在跟專家學的討論中因為我們其實也最近也辦了相關的工作坊來找專家學者包括第一線的食物工作者來討論這個問題我知道這對您來講時間是需要討論的但是我剛剛一直講到尤其是港口的勞工朋友他不能等所以希望您來自於基層"},{"start":378.271,"end":393.688,"text":"希望你來自於經常替勞工界的朋友來爭取他應該要的權益這個如果一旦解決馬上可以解決大概一代半港口郎馬上面臨到的問題我們把時間縮短好不好我給你三個月的時間可不可以三個月應該是可以"},{"start":393.908,"end":418.782,"text":"可以吧 好不好好 三個月 最後我要再一次提醒部長不論是我們勞保局的電話讓勞工打不進去還是勞保局在受理各項的申請進度比較慢這兩個核心問題我再提醒你就是因為人力不足我相信捍衛基層權益的部長你一定苦鳴所苦可以知道勞工朋友的辛苦但是呢我希望你能夠跟人種來爭取緣額"},{"start":421.423,"end":430.53,"text":"然後才能夠讓我們的人力順利的進行讓我們的基層勞工得到應該要有的權益跟保障好不好三個月我會繼續在這邊追蹤您謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1109,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（12時23分）謝謝主席！有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["高金委員素梅：沒關係！部長你慢慢來，喝口水。"],["洪部長申翰：高金素梅委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：不好意思，占用您的用餐時間。這是您擔任部長以來，我們第一次在這邊進行質詢，因為時間不多，我今天的質詢要很快的進入主題，但這個主題不是很大的議題，可是你一旦解決之後，就能夠解決我們現在面臨困境的勞工問題。第一個問題我想問的是勞保局人力不足的問題，我們辦公室其實接到非常多原住民、漢族朋友的勞工朋友投訴，他說遇到職災，要打電話給我們的勞保局確認申請的事宜，電話怎麼打都打不進去，有些人打了一個禮拜，有些人打了大概半個月才接通。對這樣的狀況，我知道我們勞保局同仁也是非常的無奈，即使增派了工讀生來協助，但還是沒有辦法解決問題。請問部長，怎麼解決？你有掌握現在的狀況嗎？"],["白局長麗真：委員好。非常謝謝委員關心，勞保局的確因為之前在給付的案量上大增，以及民眾要詢問的電話量比較多，所以在人力上面有些吃緊。這部分的話，隨著案量慢慢比較趨緩，最近我們在接通剛才提到的民眾打電話部分已經做了一些改善，委員提到的我們一定會特別再留意。"],["高金委員素梅：並沒有趨緩，如果有趨緩的話，我們辦公室不會還接到這麼多的投訴。請部長瞭解一下，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好，這部分我們來瞭解一下，看看怎麼樣來協助。"],["高金委員素梅：我知道你來自基層，這個問題不是很大，是很小，只是接通電話的問題，如果你們沒有接到電話，一個禮拜、15天其實對辛苦的勞工來說就很久，因為辛苦的勞工大概家裡面一個人做事可能就要養全家，他一旦發生了事情，後續就會有很大的問題。請問這個問題什麼時候能夠解決？"],["洪部長申翰：我們看看可不可以用兩週討論一下改善的作法。"],["高金委員素梅：好，兩週討論一下。","第二個問題也很快，勞保局處理職災的申請作業程序還有它的期限明顯變得很長，我剛剛講過一人職災全家就受災，非常多勞工揹負養家活口的重責大任，部長應該比我更清楚，當他遇到職災的時候，他就沒有辦法工作，然後家庭就陷入非常大的困頓，日後還要碰到什麼治療、復健費用的支出，他不僅僅沒有了工作、沒有薪水，還需負擔復健和治療費用。我知道講到這邊，部長可能會告訴我，其實我們勞動部有相關的規定是可以保障勞工權益的，比如他可以申請職災傷病給付，對吧？但是部長知道嗎？實務上，從發生職災到勞保局認定職災的相關補償給付需要花費多久的時間？"],["白局長麗真：跟委員報告，剛剛有提到之前在COVID-19期間，我們一年的案量本來大概是14萬件，後來增加到我們將近審核了235萬件，所以剛剛提到我們的審核時效，我們的確有……"],["高金委員素梅：也是審核的問題嘛！"],["白局長麗真：去年的案件量比較恢復正常，所以我們最新的統計數據是平均一個案件的天數大概是40天，如果是沒有特別異常的案件就不需要再查證，這個天數大概可以到21天。"],["高金委員素梅：據我的瞭解是沒有！所以你希望是縮短20天還是多少？"],["白局長麗真：我們一定會在這個時間上儘快，讓他能夠儘早獲得給付。"],["高金委員素梅：部長知道他的回答了，有幾個問題，因為一定是有一個SOP，對不對？當我們勞保局受理勞工的傷病給付申請之後，醫審會會對病例進行審查，這是因果關係，因為我們的勞保局要認定是不是可以成立職災的程序要耗費很長的時間。您剛剛聽到了，他說之前是因為COVID-19，可是COVID-19只是一個藉口，事實上現在要認定這個是非常耗費時間的，這也是人力不足之故。請問部長，你要怎麼樣趕快解決這個SOP，然後把時間縮短？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，其實這裡面有兩個層次的問題，第一個層次當然還是跟人力的資源有關，這是一個。第二個是其實我們這段時間也一直在檢討，包括如何更以職災勞工為核心，在友善職災勞工的前提之下，重新設計我們可以協助職災勞工的相關措施跟流程。這個事情其實我們也在檢討中，我們最近其實也找了一些專家、一些學者在討論這件事情。"],["高金委員素梅：請問什麼時候會解決？"],["洪部長申翰：可能還需要一點時間，因為這個部分……"],["高金委員素梅：我希望快速好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：當然我們會儘快。"],["高金委員素梅：你知道為什麼嗎？因為辛苦的勞工不能等，當他一旦家裡發生狀況之後，後面還有那麼多的事情要處理，那不是雪上加霜了嗎！"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在在規劃的，包括他的通報流程，包括他可能申請給付等等等相關的流程，我們希望這個流程……"],["高金委員素梅：你從接電話開始一直到審核認定為職災，到認定這個勞工可以接受到這樣子的付款跟支援，你大概要花多久的時間？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得我們儘量來討論……"],["高金委員素梅：儘量是多少？你認為應該是多少？"],["洪部長申翰：因為這部分現在還在跟專家學者討論中，我們其實最近也辦了相關的工作坊，找專家學者包括第一線的實務工作者來討論這個問題。"],["高金委員素梅：非常好！謝謝您。我知道對您來講，時間是需要討論的，但是我剛剛一直講，尤其是艱苦的勞工朋友，他不能等！所以希望來自於基層、來自於經常替勞工界朋友爭取的您，爭取他應該要有的權益，這個一旦解決，馬上可以解決大概一大半艱苦人面臨的問題。我們把時間縮短好不好？我給你三個月的時間，可不可以？"],["洪部長申翰：三個月應該是可以。"],["高金委員素梅：可以吧？好不好？三個月。我要再一次提醒部長，不論是我們勞保局的電話讓勞工打不進去，還是勞保局在受理各項的申請進度比較慢，我再提醒您這兩個核心問題就是因為人力不足，我相信捍衛基層權益的部長一定苦民所苦，可以知道勞工朋友的辛苦。我希望您能夠跟人總爭取員額，然後才能夠讓我們的人力順利的進行，讓我們的基層勞工得到應該要有的權益跟保障。好不好？三個月的時間。"],["洪部長申翰：我們會盡力爭取。"],["高金委員素梅：我會繼續在這邊追蹤您。謝謝！"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝！"],["主席：接下來請陳昭姿委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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呃 是不是有請 呃 這個 國防部 顧部長呃 全民防衛動員署 理署長 軍醫局 馮副局長和解署長跟局長 謝謝是 邱委員吼欸 部長 先請教那個岡山吶 岡山醫院 國際岡山醫院的長照大樓這你可能比較不了解 我先請教馮副局長這個 岡山醫院長照大樓預算有沒有問題"},{"start":30.952,"end":55.032,"text":"跟委員報告 因為一些委員的關心因為這個部分的話分為 經費分為兩個部分有沒有問題啦沒有問題恭喜會不會延宕不會延宕 謝謝委員的支持與協助我的問題完了 請回座這個全面防衛動員署那關於這個 我在總諮詢有提到"},{"start":56.541,"end":83.841,"text":"這個所謂慈福臨寢跟大西臨寢臨寢的定義是什麼帝王之墓怎麼把一個獨裁者變成一個帝王帝王之墓它的管理規則是這個開放臨寢業齡管理須知這部分不是法律未解它是一個行政命令是一個須知而已行政部門要改就馬上可以改"},{"start":84.707,"end":102.934,"text":"你看現在這個獨裁者的這個領請帝王之墓還有我們國軍每天在那邊看守還有禮賓交接儀式這個你們可以做的我總諮詢可能沒有那麼多時間這個是不是部長你來表示一下態度"},{"start":105.904,"end":127.725,"text":"我想這個應該要依照行政院的政策來行政院什麼政策 行政院有政策嗎行政院應該有交代文化部有相關的這些你們發布的行政命令是全董署發布行政命令你們願不願意去調整 去思考怎麼去調整"},{"start":129.366,"end":145.877,"text":"我想我們這個部分是包括民生是不是改過包括是部署要 非得要部署禮賓這你們可有從須知己裡面去改啊你們有沒有要改而已這不涉及法律的修正"},{"start":147.287,"end":166.674,"text":"我們暫時目前就這個部分是基於這一個算是它還是算是一個營區的安全維護我們目前沒有這個相關的規劃所謂帝王之墓 督差者的墓有沒有安全疑慮哪來的安全疑慮有人會盜墓嗎我不覺得有任何這個有安全上的疑慮"},{"start":176.711,"end":184.656,"text":"這個你們應該去思考這個問題特別名稱領請帝王之木你把獨裁者視為一個帝王這個我不曉得為什麼沒有辦法回答這個部長因為我時間一分一秒就過去了我現在只能說我們暫時目前沒有這樣的一個規劃為什麼為什麼暫時沒有"},{"start":205.834,"end":226.007,"text":"那暫時的狀態 暫時定義是多久一個月 兩個月 三個月 還是一年委員的意見我們來參考 我們來相關研議那我們也跟文化部來進行協調是不是一個月之內可以把你們的想法用一個書面報告好不好 一個月之內這不是新問題 這是老問題啦 部長"},{"start":231.747,"end":252.074,"text":"你是一個人權鬥士啊你曾經是一個轉型正義的律師啊這個應該你特別有感才對啊我們再來跟文化部來進行協調我會一直質詢我會一直質詢但不能像現在都沒有話說來 權重署來 署長"},{"start":257.043,"end":262.564,"text":"國軍的送訓制度我們這個要花很多的錢把國軍送訓每年一億四年一位出國去送訓的軍官大概要花一千萬左右"},{"start":285.339,"end":311.053,"text":"但是他從他的服役年次來看他比這個國軍平均服役年金少了將近四年那他的職業會發生這個一些問題所以你的送訓制度沒有辦法發揮他原本的功能你送訓就是回來有更多的好的人才新的思維來提振國軍的整體綜合能力嘛"},{"start":312.028,"end":336.561,"text":"那這個部分 這個部長您的看法是我們受這個如果是出國念這個外比如說西點 您跟這裡提到西點軍校或其他的這個軍校的這個部分我們現在應該還是要盡量讓他的這個金管能夠完成所以我們就把它會按照他的這個專長我們會"},{"start":339.723,"end":347.929,"text":"讓他從事這個部隊的服務的訓練現行的送訓制度有沒有需要做改革或者調整呢送訓的制度"},{"start":349.965,"end":371.384,"text":"我覺得應該是他們回來之後我們讓他進行相關的一個歷練不要妨礙他的職業的發展很多從事外事或者是翻譯工作現在要改變這些做法因為他一直在從事這些翻譯外事的工作他沒有一個部隊的一個歷練他的金管就沒辦法完整"},{"start":374.281,"end":390.279,"text":"接下來的問題是跟海軍參謀長有來威海計畫的相關預算海軍參謀長非常認真努力把相關預算最快的速度籌編這部分當然也要經過行政院"},{"start":391.36,"end":409.887,"text":"那我希望說能夠最快的速度能夠編入這個明年度的預算所以是不是市政府也很關心這我的選區這個國家重大的這個國防機制我們都全力支持但是也不能說影響到這個漁民的生計所以這個部分我想請教一下參謀長這個明年納入預算有沒有問題"},{"start":417.352,"end":435.584,"text":"這個部分因為他們一直有來跟我報告我們現在應該是在這個會在應該是八月底前核定那就納入明年的預算編列所以這點不會跳票了所以會今年的年底就納入預算"},{"start":438.138,"end":441.58,"text":"我們現在的規劃是如此軍事審判的暫時定義要怎麼去做調整軍事審判的暫時定義現在現行第七條本法生暫時者"},{"start":463.472,"end":478.439,"text":"為抵禦青年兒幼總統一憲法宣告作戰之期間那這個牽涉到共諜案的複雜樣態包括這個灰色地帶目前要怎麼樣針對這第七條暫時定義做調整部裡面有沒有看法"},{"start":479.499,"end":506.457,"text":"我個人看法是如此就是說我們現在的防衛作戰已經不需要沒有跟戒嚴放在一起這個要特別說明那我們現在所有相關的法制從憲法 針灸條文到國防法到權動法都是以總統發布緊急命令也就是說 碰到緊急狀況發布緊急命令來作為我們這個動員的需要所以我們應該是以緊急命令發布作為一個認定這樣子"},{"start":508.101,"end":528.09,"text":"所以他的定義就是要做調整對那第七條就要修法我想應該要規劃要來做一個調整那修法的版本什麼時候會提出來我想這一次連同這一個部分我們會一併來做個調整這樣好 謝謝部長 謝謝各位同仁大家辛苦了好 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謝謝主席我想要先謝謝嘉賓委員 為離島的鄉親說話因為我現在服務金門馬祖 謝謝你好 我們要請主委 謝謝劉主委"},{"start":21.94,"end":33.966,"text":"主委午安好主委午安喔呃此時此刻我們大家現在看到這個美麗的風景喔不知道主委你有沒有去過呃我去過馬祖好去過馬祖這個畫面就是馬祖喔那再下一張"},{"start":37.072,"end":60.882,"text":"右手邊是連江線左手邊是金門喔這兩個美麗的島嶼呢我想不管他在文化上或者是生活風土民情上或者是經濟建設交通建設教育建設其實真的仰賴中央非常非常多的資源那我自己非常好奇喔就大的方向我們來看好了國發會114年度預算遭到大幅的刪減我想要知道就金門線還有連江線"},{"start":62.583,"end":87.422,"text":"目前我們可能在這個預算大幅刪減情況下會造成哪些影響我們從大方向來說就好好不好我只有4分鐘我們主要是離島基金我們被刪減了5000多萬然後另外就是我們在地方創生我們跟金門跟這個馬祖也都有很多的這個往來那這個部分也預算也受到影響主要是這兩個部分好"},{"start":88.803,"end":117.627,"text":"那再來我們就是我們資訊的那個行政院公報我們要公告到會跟這個金門跟馬祖的政府這個縣政府的這個往來的資訊也會受到影響所謂往來資訊受到影響可不可以說清楚一點我們的我們有一筆預算是來負責政府公報跟行政院可以把任何的事情可以跟縣市政府地方政府還有一些民間團體的即時性的溝通跟公告那這是每天都要做的"},{"start":118.027,"end":121.535,"text":"所以這個也受到影響那是個受到影響因為他直接被"},{"start":124.4,"end":148.385,"text":"被檢列還是凍結檢列所以看起來確實有一些業務已經受到了影響我想要談不管是剛剛鍾嘉斌委員說的離島基金或者是所謂電費跟水費的補助到底是要透過經濟部還是透過行政院那個離島基金的部分其實確實在很多議題上已經受到干擾受到影響那當然我認為這個是我們在立法院跟行政院必須要積極解決"},{"start":149.185,"end":178.435,"text":"的事情我當然也期待更多立法委員可以一起支持可是就地方的鄉親來說大家的日常生活要照顧自己的日常生活已經很辛苦了我很希望我們後續可以趕快進行實質的討論如何解決剛剛主委您說的那些問題尤其是您剛剛說的地方創生過往我也來自地方創生在更早叫做社區營造的工作我完全理解對於地方創生對於這樣的偏鄉來說其實非常的重要後續我們真的希望可以努力改善這個可能性當然"},{"start":178.915,"end":190.128,"text":"主委這不是你努力就夠我們立法院希望可以跟您一起努力接下來我想要講另外一個議題在今天目前我們走進委員會之前相關的復議案已經超過10萬人連署"},{"start":193.972,"end":217.412,"text":"關於凱凱案有人提出我們先不討論實質內容因為每一個民意都展現他自己所在意的價值那立法委員如何修法行政機關如何回應這是後續的事情但是我們看到我昨天晚上有產生這個當機的狀況不知道主委您知不知道昨晚當機的是抱歉我們沒關係我們讓您的同仁幫你回答好不好"},{"start":219.841,"end":242.315,"text":"好沒關係主委我跟您說3月18號晚上因為大家太關注凱凱案了所以這個系統就無法順利連線在這個平台上就寫著公共政策網路參與平台近日因瞬間流量過大造成網路中斷其實我也想要提醒我們相關的這個壓力測試我們來看下一張其實在過往公共政策參與平台成案的負意量"},{"start":243.115,"end":267.888,"text":"今天這個案子來到史上新高已經超過10萬而且在我們此時此刻對話同時我相信他正在增加那確實他可能真的對國發會這個公民政策連署平台造成影響我們後續如何讓他的這個系統防範做得更好而不要因為人民對某些議題的積極參與讓剛剛那個連線無法順利的情況再次發生不知道主委我想要這邊你有沒有比較清楚這個狀況"},{"start":269.8,"end":290.977,"text":"我這樣我了解我回去會找我們的同仁來討論看怎麼樣把系統做看看預算當然我也很擔心預算啦我不是砍預算的人我是支持預算的人但是我很擔心預算會受到影響我們的資訊預算被砍的比重比較高OK我回去看一下我們怎麼樣來應變這個比較重要的議題好這個確實非常重要好那我想今天就先說到這邊後續有很多議題我們可以推進一起來討論謝謝主委謝謝主席好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":856,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時19分）謝謝主席。我想要先謝謝佳濱委員為離島的鄉親說話，因為我現在服務金門、馬祖，謝謝你。我們要請主委，謝謝。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員午安。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委午安。此時此刻我們看到的這個美麗風景，不知道主委你有沒有去過？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我去過馬祖。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個畫面就是馬祖，下一張圖片的右邊是連江縣，左邊是金門，這兩個美麗的島嶼，我想不管是在文化上或者是生活風土民情上，或者是經濟建設、交通建設、教育建設上，其實真的非常非常仰賴中央的資源，我自己非常好奇的是，就大的方向來看，國發會114年度預算遭到大幅的刪減，我想要知道就金門縣還有連江縣來說，在預算大幅刪減情況下，目前可能會造成哪些影響？我們從大方向來說就好，因為我的發言時間只有4分鐘。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：主要是離島基金被刪減了五千多萬元，另外就是在地方創生方面，我們跟金門和馬祖也都有很多的往來，這個部分的預算也受到影響，主要是這兩個部分。再來就是資訊部分，行政院公報要公告，所以跟金門和馬祖縣政府往來的資訊也會受到影響。"],["陳委員培瑜：所謂「往來資訊受到影響」，可不可以說清楚一點？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們有一筆預算是用來負責政府公報，讓行政院得以把任何的事情跟縣市政府、地方政府，還有一些民間團體做即時性的溝通跟公告，這是每天都要做的。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以這個也受到影響？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個有受到影響，因為它直接被減列。"],["陳委員培瑜：是減列還是凍結？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：被減列。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以看起來確實有一些業務已經受到影響，我要說的是，不管是剛剛鍾佳濱委員說的離島基金或者是所謂電費跟水費的補助，到底是要透過經濟部還是透過行政院離島基金的部分，確實在很多議題上已經受到干擾、受到影響，我認為這個是我們在立法院跟行政院必須要積極解決的事情，我當然也期待更多立法委員可以一起支持，可是就地方的鄉親來說，大家要照顧自己的日常生活已經很辛苦了，我很希望我們後續可以趕快進行實質討論，如何解決主委您說的那些問題，尤其是您剛剛說的地方創生，過往我也來自地方創生，在更早叫做社區營造工作，我完全理解地方創生對於這樣的偏鄉來說，其實非常的重要，後續我們真的希望可以努力改善這個可能性，當然這不是主委你努力就夠了，我們立法院希望可以跟您一起努力。","接下來我想講另外一個議題，在今天、在我們走進這個委員會之前，關於愷愷案提出的附議案，已有超過10萬人連署，我們先不討論實質內容，因為每一個民意都展現他自己所在意的價值，立法委員如何修法、行政機關如何回應，這是後續的事情，但是我們看到昨天晚上產生了當機的狀況，不知道主委您知不知道？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：昨晚當機的事，抱歉，我們……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，讓您的同仁幫你回答，好不好？沒關係，主委我跟您說，3月18號晚上，因為大家太關注愷愷案了，所以這個系統就無法順利連線，在這個平台上就寫著「公共政策網路參與平台近日因瞬間流量過大，造成網路中斷」，其實我想要提醒的是我們相關的壓力測試。就過往公共政策參與平台成案的附議量來說，今天這個案子來到史上新高，已經超過10萬人，而且在此時此刻我們對話的同時，我相信它正在增加，那確實它可能真的對國發會這個公民政策連署平台造成影響，後續如何讓這個系統防範做得更好，不要因為人民對某些議題的積極參與，而讓剛剛那個無法順利連線的情況再次發生，不知道主委有沒有比較清楚這個狀況？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這樣我瞭解，回去後會找我們的同仁來討論，看看怎麼樣把系統做好，看看預算……"],["陳委員培瑜：當然我也很擔心預算，我不是砍預算的人，而是支持預算的人，但是我很擔心預算會受到影響。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為資訊預算被砍的比重比較高，我回去看一下我們要怎麼樣來應變這個比較重要的議題。"],["陳委員培瑜：OK！這個確實非常重要，我想今天就先說到這邊，後續有很多議題我們可以推進，一起來討論。謝謝主委！謝謝主席！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在請張雅琳委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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凍結是18億那可能會影響的勞工相關權益是什麼"},{"start":118.694,"end":144.724,"text":"我們現在看到幾個部分第一個部分是其實因為一般行政的費用其實都被做了刪除所以其實整個部內的運作因為一般行政的費用包括刪除包括凍結都有所以如果沒有辦法快速的解凍的話其實已經會影響到部內的整體的行政的運作包括水電等等等的都在下半年可能都會受到影響這是第一個第二個其實"},{"start":146.505,"end":151.419,"text":"包括我們剛才講到像我們剛才就業平等的這個相關的業務因為被刪了800動了"},{"start":154.228,"end":176.601,"text":"將近2000所以剛剛像講到像產檢價賠產檢價的相關的這些補助其實都會受到影響那也包括我們其實對於一些地方政府的就業中心就業服務佔據點其實我們透過業務費的方式做一些會做一些薪資上面的補助那這部分也因為"},{"start":178.482,"end":197.696,"text":"業務費被刪跟動所以這些救福人員的薪資的發放也會受到影響這都影響到一般勞動的權益你們現在在地方除了勞動部自己的就業服務站以外你們還有對各縣市政府跟鄉鎮市都有提供補助就業的"},{"start":199.477,"end":226.857,"text":"就人員的薪資補助這部分也會被影響我想勞動部這邊也沒有什麼可以因應的唯一的方式就是盡可能的向委員做溝通希望該解凍的可以盡早解凍會不會影響到基金的撥補"},{"start":228.581,"end":254.19,"text":"因為我們已經連續好幾年老保基金有做政府有做撥補嗎基金的撥補的部分比較是針對就是說財化法在去年12月通過後如果這個新的財化法要實施的話因為中央會被這個有3700多億那這個經費會移到地方去所以可能會有這些非法訂"},{"start":255.59,"end":282.797,"text":"推法令義務的支出在未來的預算編列上面就會受到影響那撥補當然就是其中的可能會受到影響的項目好所以不然我先說我在去年其實我有提過老保條例的修正案我當初是把撥補直接入法"},{"start":284.755,"end":308.104,"text":"就是基金的來源政府的撥補算是法定的收入來源可是後來因為行政部門有意見所以這個案我就把它撤掉了我現在重新問一次假如再提版本把政府撥補"},{"start":309.856,"end":324.792,"text":"當作當作勞保基金的收入收入的來源入法啦就是把它明定在法律部長是贊成的還是反對的這部分我們尊重委員的提案然後我們願意跟委員來做討論因為我覺得"},{"start":329.161,"end":358.784,"text":"老闆每年這樣子在政府透過這麼龐大的金額在撥補都已經搖搖欲墜了假如說在因為財化法的修正會受到撥補金額會受到影響因為他法定支出跟非法定支出還是有差別的當然啦假如說是法定支出也可以"},{"start":360.975,"end":380.615,"text":"後來由地方來因為錢到地方了嘛可能中央還是有一些中央原本負責的事項必須要由地方來負責這個才合理啦這個後續應該財化法假如現在富裕案也已經"},{"start":383.393,"end":408.97,"text":"被否決了後續假如說法律確定了以後錢跟權責總是必須要一致嘛不太可能說把錢給地方然後事情還是由中央來做所以就是說假如再重新提案"},{"start":411.69,"end":425.756,"text":"政府撥補當作當作勞保基金的法定收入部長應該是肯定的我們覺得我剛才說尊重委員提案然後我們願意來跟委員這邊來討論部長我再問就是這個禮拜"},{"start":434.831,"end":450.238,"text":"內政委員會也已經在討論國定假日那我覺得這個的起由大概都是因為勞工這七天假引發出來的"},{"start":452.34,"end":478.707,"text":"那台灣的工時其實相對於日本韓國大概也都比較高啦時間的關係所以我簡單講就是說假如因為勞基法有規定特休假假如我們是透過提高特休假來增加勞工的"},{"start":480.677,"end":496.024,"text":"的休假日而不是全國統一因為特休假有幾個好處就是第一勞工可以提高第一可以降低工時第二勞工可以自己選擇什麼時候要休"},{"start":499.4,"end":512.691,"text":"第三因為不是一致性的修所以對企業的運作比較小對於經濟的阻礙也比較小這個部長這麼贊成"},{"start":519.352,"end":537.57,"text":"以我們當然贊成我們當然不是從勞動部的角度我們當然會在這個降低工時的角度來去思考這種可能的狀況那針對當然特休的特休假的議題是會有一些討論那我們願意來聽大家的聲音但是因為確實特休假要"},{"start":540.473,"end":566.535,"text":"要調整的話這涉及到要修法啦所以這個我的意思就是說假如說現在我們在討論國定假日最主要的起源是來自是來自砍勞工原本的那這七天假才有那麼多委員提出國定假日的修法版本那是不是是不是從勞基法來修"},{"start":568.7,"end":593.258,"text":"提高特休假的天數這個對於整體國家的衝擊比較小這個會是社會討論的我們聽到各方討論的想法之一那我說因為這一波大家在討論國定假日的議題其實從勞動部的角度當然我們也覺得我們願意來正向的來參與這個事情的討論沒有我現在"},{"start":597.369,"end":618.881,"text":"不然我這樣子問就是說你覺得直接用國定假日還給勞工這7天假的方式比較好還是我們單純7歐勞基法然後來提高特休假一樣想辦法把這7天補回去"},{"start":624.31,"end":629.659,"text":"這兩個途徑部長比較支持哪一個我都不會為難你啦"},{"start":633.206,"end":660.734,"text":"我認為這些做法當然大家現在討論我們都在聽大家的聲音好啦那我還是必須要做個結論啦我覺得從特休假來做處理會是對國家社會經濟衝擊最小然後同時又可以讓勞工自己選擇他要的假日然後企業也不會因為放假所以停擺"},{"start":661.574,"end":670.509,"text":"所以我覺得我還是主張修勞基法提供給部長當作參考謝謝主席 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1080,"blocks":[["楊委員曜：（12時11分）謝謝主席，請一下洪部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：楊委員好。"],["楊委員曜：部長好。我還是要先就年度預算讓部長做個說明，也跟廣大的勞工朋友講講看，到底這一次立法院通過的預算會造成勞動部在推動各項勞工政策時有什麼窒礙難行之處。你們現在估出來的被刪減跟凍結的預算金額大概多少？"],["洪部長申翰：就公務預算的部分，總共被刪減了大概8,000萬元，未含通案刪減，就個案刪減的部分大概是8,000萬元。"],["楊委員曜：統刪是3%？"],["洪部長申翰：業務費是統刪30%？是統凍30%吧？就是不含統凍或統刪的部分，總共刪了8,000萬元，凍結18億元。"],["楊委員曜：刪了這些預算，可能會影響的勞工相關權益是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在看到幾個部分，第一個部分是因為一般行政的費用，包括刪除、凍結都有，如果沒有辦法快速解凍的話，其實已經會影響到部內整體行政的運作，包括水電等等在下半年可能都會受到影響，這是第一個。第二個是包括我們剛才講的像就業平等相關業務，因為被刪了800萬元，凍了將近2,000萬元，所以如產檢假、陪產檢假這些相關補助，其實都會受到影響；那也包括我們對於一些地方政府就業中心、就業服務站據點，其實我們透過業務費的方式會做一些薪資上面的補助，這部分也因為業務費被刪跟凍，所以這些就服人員薪資的發放也會受到影響，這都影響到一般勞工的權益。"],["楊委員曜：在地方，除了勞動部自己的就業服務站以外，你們還有對各縣市政府跟鄉鎮市就業服務人員的薪資提供補助？"],["洪部長申翰：對，就是對人員的薪資補助。"],["楊委員曜：這部分也會被影響？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["楊委員曜：我想勞動部這邊也沒有什麼可以因應的，唯一的方式就是盡可能的跟委員溝通，希望該解凍的可以儘早解凍。會不會影響到基金的撥補？因為政府已經連續好幾年都對勞保基金撥補。"],["洪部長申翰：基金撥補的部分，財劃法在去年12月修正通過，如果這個新的財劃法要實施的話，因為中央有3,700多億經費會移到地方去，所以可能會有這些非法定義務的支出，在未來的預算編列上面就會受到影響，撥補當然就是其中可能會受到影響的項目。"],["楊委員曜：我要先說明，去年其實我有提過勞保條例的修正案，當初是修正為把撥補直接入法，就是把政府撥補算是基金的法定收入來源，可是後來因為行政部門有意見，所以我就把這個案子撤掉了。現在我重新問一次，假如再提版本，把政府撥補當作勞保基金的收入來源並入法，就是把它明定在法律內，部長是贊成還是反對？"],["洪部長申翰：對此，我們尊重委員的提案，也願意跟委員討論。"],["楊委員曜：因為我覺得政府每年這樣子透過這麼龐大的金額撥補，勞保都已經搖搖欲墜了，假如再因為財劃法的修正，使撥補金額受到影響……因為法定支出跟非法定支出還是有差別的，當然假如說是法定支出，也可以劃由地方來支出，因為錢到地方了嘛！有一些中央原本負責的事項可能必須要由地方來負責，這個才合理。財劃法覆議案現在已經被否決了，假如法律確定了以後，錢跟權責總是必須要一致，不太可能把錢給地方然後事情還是由中央來做，因此若再重新提案，把政府撥補當作勞保基金的法定收入，部長應該是肯定的？"],["洪部長申翰：我剛剛說過我們尊重委員提案，願意跟委員討論。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我再問一個問題，這個禮拜內政委員會已經在討論國定假日，我覺得這個的起由大概都是因為勞工這7天假引發出來的，其實臺灣的工時相對於日本、韓國大概都比較高。限於發言時間，所以我簡單的講。因為勞基法有規定特休假，假如我們是透過提高特休假來增加勞工的休假日，而不是全國統一呢？因為提高勞工特休假有幾個好處：第一、可以降低工時；第二、勞工可以自己選擇什麼時候要休；第三、因為不是一致性的休，所以對企業運作的影響比較小，對於經濟的阻礙也比較小。這個部長贊不贊成？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然贊成，從勞動部的角度，我們當然會從降低工時的角度思考各種可能的狀況。針對特休假的議題，社會也有一些討論，我們願意來聽大家的聲音，但是特休假要調整的話，確實涉及到修法。"],["楊委員曜：我的意思是說，假如現在我們討論國定假日最主要的起源是來自砍了勞工原本的這7天假，以致有那麼多委員提出國定假日的修法版本，那是不是可從修正勞基法，提高特休假天數著手？這個對國家整體的衝擊比較小。"],["洪部長申翰：這個是社會各方討論時我們聽到的想法之一，這波大家在討論國定假日的議題，其實從勞動部的角度，當然我們也願意正向參與這個事情的討論。"],["楊委員曜：部長，我這樣子問好了，你覺得直接用國定假日還給勞工這7天假的方式比較好，還是我們單純去修正勞基法來提高特休假，一樣想辦法把這7天補回去比較好？對這兩個途徑，部長比較支持哪一個？我都不會為難你啦！"],["洪部長申翰：這些作法當然大家現在都在討論，我們多來聽大家的聲音。"],["楊委員曜：我還是必須要做個結論，我覺得從特休假來處理，會是對國家、社會、經濟衝擊最小的，同時又可以讓勞工自己選擇他要的假日，企業也不會因為放假而停擺，所以我還是主張修正勞基法，提供給部長當作參考。謝謝主席！謝謝部長！"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝！"],["主席：接下來請高金素梅委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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在堂委員先進 列席的政府金融市場官員會長 公共夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們國發會劉主委和國土及離島處的黃處長和法治協調處的林處長請國發會劉主委及相關的單位"},{"start":36.152,"end":45.118,"text":"好 主委好 兩位處長好那我今天要問的就是台電吸收的離島供電虧損達千億那國發會應該儘速依離島條例來撥補來 請教一下 主委這是最近的一個新聞台電虧損達4200億預算照三減面臨漲電價調漲你認為一般民眾需不需要電價調漲"},{"start":56.682,"end":76.273,"text":"民眾應該是不希望 當然啦所以我們民意代表也認為說最好是要撥補然後如果要漲的話電務小店家盡量調的幅度小一點盡量不要漲但是就在我們上星期三月九號有個新聞自由時報在星期天他千億撥補渺茫 財務壓力沉重台電你追討一千一百億的離島補貼離島建設條例是不是國發會管的"},{"start":84.437,"end":111.213,"text":"是不是行政院管我們代執行對你們執行你們是副主任委員嘛好這個基金好那為什麼要撥補呢你們看一下您知道台電的發電結構吧一般的火力發電高於平均電價成本2.78他高了一點點2.87其中燃油最高燃油高達7.3什麼原因因為離島這些地方呢都是小規模的都用柴油發電成本很高嘛所以台電是賠錢在賣電是不是這樣子"},{"start":113.636,"end":126.501,"text":"是的所以我們的離島發電的虧損怎麼樣89年通過離島經濟條例它說離島用水用電我們中央目的事業主管機關審核後審核中央目的事業主管機關這個應該是經濟部要編列預算撥補資"},{"start":131.323,"end":142.577,"text":"可是呢89年通過90年行政院說這個拜託請台電自行吸收好奇怪喔立法院通過的條例行政院居然說叫台電自己吸收可是102年到104年經濟部有撥補34億您知道嗎"},{"start":146.778,"end":173.525,"text":"國發會知道嗎我不清楚國發會知不知道這個有撥補我們國發會沒有撥補沒有嗎沒有那我們看一下但是從105年開始又不撥補了行政院去函說不撥補了而且這個還告知經濟部但是2013年就是去年的經濟委員會審查預算通過一個決議那麼要求離島基金延逸撥補台幣的可行性國發會有沒有收到"},{"start":175.083,"end":179.606,"text":"你們有收到,而且你們發函,今年就發函問經濟部你們1月14號發函問說請經濟部研議相關內容提供給國發會,有沒有想起來了來,處長說一下"},{"start":193.742,"end":221.296,"text":"跟委員說明因為我們為了這個議題我們有發函給那個經濟部嘛對 經濟部的回應就是說希望離島基金來做撥補順便也跟那個委員這個做個說明其實以現在離島條例來講第14條的規定是中央目的事業主管機關審核後然後編列預算那以目前水電來講其實都是經濟部在編列預算來來來很好很好我們要請法治的林處長來"},{"start":223.066,"end":249.697,"text":"那個是逗點目的事業主管機關審核後逗點編列預算撥補資林處長這個逗點後的主持是誰啊離島建設條例主管機關是行政院他只有說請中央目的事業主管機關審查審查完的金額告訴行政院對不對行政院一開始說你經濟部自己處理但是我們立法院要求怎樣要求要離島基金來撥補離島基金誰管的"},{"start":253.729,"end":263.2,"text":"呃離島基金是行政院管的嘛對行政院管但是你是副主任委員你們負責執行嘛我們負責執行所以就當然問你啦這個預算撥補寫在經濟部說用離島基金來撥補啊你們同意嗎我們欸對"},{"start":268.7,"end":281.657,"text":"跟委員報告這個我們有洽詢過台電那你們他經濟部發案來了說你們用理老基金撥補有沒有能力啊理老基金剩多少跟委員報告理老基金現在113年底剩8.86億那每年台電的"},{"start":285.542,"end":314.502,"text":"撥補到離島大概是五十一到六十一 主委聽到沒有這一筆賬你們都清楚 但是你們是礙於怎樣 靠爹沒錢啦所以請台電說你們還是找經濟部啦 往下看來 我要不要往前跳 用供水虧損有撥補 誰撥補的是經濟部嗎 經濟部 是經濟部 好 那經濟部今天不在但是經濟部的水啊 一點點他就自己掏腰撥就算了 但你說的供電的虧損是多少"},{"start":315.509,"end":343.638,"text":"五十億啊好那五十億你們補不補啊我們來看可以不補嗎主委你認為可不可以不補應該我們的額度是沒有辦法不管嗎那是行政院的事情嘛你認為應不應該撥補依法要不要補它不是法定義務這個是我們的法定義務是不是法定義務這還是中央目的主管機關負責的部分這是行政院建離島條例的法定義務好"},{"start":344.932,"end":360.448,"text":"如果你們不撥補會遇到什麼情況你知道嗎如果台電國庫不撥補台電的民股可以提告喔有沒有可能林處長有沒有可能提告台電公司有民股啊你依法的法定義務你行政院不負責民股會告你啊有沒有可能"},{"start":361.394,"end":390.296,"text":"好那告訴你來往下看所以目前離島的發電累計虧損的是1100億他決意要撥補的是2000年到2011年告訴你們還差了550億多後面還有2016年到2024的還要撥補所以加起來要那麼多好最後的結論了結論你來看一下往前跳你們看到沒有113年離島建設基金的決算剩多少8億8主委你們管的離島建設基金只剩這麼點錢"},{"start":391.553,"end":392.455,"text":"人家要的帳是1100億 你怎麼辦怎麼辦"},{"start":397.122,"end":424.397,"text":"這件事情並沒有到我這來我想是不是讓我去了解一下好那我告訴你怎麼辦往下看最後結論請國發會你繼續函詢經濟部去計算2012年到去年的離島供電的虧損數額問他一下問清楚到底這筆賬總共多少錢第二請你去找主計總處去研究一下預算是編列在經濟部的明年度的公務預算還是要撥補到你的離島基金用離島基金依法去支應這筆錢可以嗎"},{"start":428.059,"end":452.839,"text":"這個找主席總督研究一下這我們可以來研究一下到底整個詳細的內容好那因為主席要我下台了我覺得最後說一句話就是你要知道啊如果是用離島條例的離島建設基金那是法定義務行政院送過來立法院不能刪但是如果你放在經濟部的公務預算我們去年把今年的就砍掉了這也是說給主席聽的謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":806,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時12分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請國發會劉主委、國土區域離島發展處的黃處長和法制協調處的林處長。"],["主席：請國發會劉主委以及相關單位。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好，兩位處長好。我今天要問的是台電吸收了離島供電虧損達千億，國發會應該儘速依離島條例來撥補。請教主委，這是最近的一個新聞，台電虧損達4,200億，預算遭刪減又面臨電價調漲壓力，你認為一般民眾希不希望電價調漲？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：民眾應該是不希望。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然啦！所以我們民意代表也認為最好是要撥補，如果要漲的話，住宅、小商家儘量調的幅度小一點，儘量不要漲。但是自由時報在上個星期天3月9號有個新聞報導：千億撥補渺茫，財務壓力沉重，台電擬追討1,100億離島補貼。離島建設條例是不是國發會管的，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是行政院管，我們代執行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，你們執行，你們是這個基金的副主任委員嘛！好，那為什麼要撥補呢？我們看一下，您知道台電的發電結構吧！一般的火力發電高於平均電價成本2.78，它高了一點點，是2.87，其中燃油最高，燃油高達7.3，什麼原因？因為離島這些地方都是小規模的，都用柴油發電，成本很高嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，成本比較高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以台電是賠錢在賣電，是不是這樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們離島發電的虧損怎麼樣？89年通過離島建設條例，離島用水、用電，由中央目的事業主管機關審核後，審核喔，中央目的事業主管機關應該是經濟部，要編列預算撥補之。可是89年通過，90年行政院說拜託請台電自行吸收。好奇怪喔！立法院通過的條例，行政院居然叫台電自己吸收，但是102年到104年經濟部有撥補34億，您知道嗎？國發會知道嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我不清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：國發會知不知道有撥補？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：國發會沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛！好，那我們看一下，但是從105年開始又不撥補了，行政院去函說不撥補了，而且還告知經濟部，但是113年，就是去年經濟委員會審查預算通過一個決議，要求離島基金研議撥補台電的可行性，國發會有沒有收到？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我是沒有看到這個。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們沒有收到？有吧！往下看，你們有收到，而且你們今年就發函問經濟部，你們1月14號發函請經濟部研議相關內容，提供給國發會。有沒有？想起來了？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我請我們處長說明。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，處長說一下。"],["黃處長文彥：跟委員說明，為了這個議題我們有發函給……"],["鍾委員佳濱：經濟部嘛！"],["黃處長文彥：對，經濟部的回應就是希望離島基金來做撥補。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["黃處長文彥：順便也跟委員做個說明，其實以現在離島條例來講，第十四條的規定是中央目的事業主管機關審核後，編列預算。以目前水、電來講，其實都是經濟部在編列預算。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，很好，我們請法制的林處長來。那個是逗點，「目的事業主管機關審核後，編列預算撥補之。」林處長，這個逗點後的主詞是誰？離島建設條例主管機關是行政院，它只有說請中央目的事業主管機關審查，審查完的金額告訴行政院，對不對？行政院一開始說經濟部自己處理，但是我們立法院要求要離島基金來撥補。離島基金誰管的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：離島基金是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：行政院管的嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，行政院管的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是你是副主任委員，你們負責執行嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們負責執行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以當然問你啦！這個預算撥補，經濟部說要用離島基金來撥補，你們同意嗎？"],["黃處長文彥：跟委員報告，這個我們有洽詢過台電……"],["鍾委員佳濱：經濟部發函來了，要你們用離島基金撥補，有沒有能力？離島基金剩多少？"],["黃處長文彥：跟委員報告，離島基金113年底剩8.86億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：8.86億好啦！"],["黃處長文彥：每年台電撥補到離島大概是50到60億，所以這個額度可能會差很多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對嘛！主委聽到沒有，這一筆帳你們都清楚，但是你們是礙於口袋裡沒錢啦！所以請台電還是找經濟部。我們往下看，供水虧損有撥補，誰撥補的？是經濟部嗎？"],["黃處長文彥：經濟部。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是經濟部，今天經濟部不在，水的部分一點點，經濟部就自己掏腰包算了，但供電的虧損多少？50億啊！50億你們補不補？我們來看，可以不補嗎？主委你認為可不可以不補？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們的額度是沒有辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是行政院的事情嘛！你認為應不應該撥補？依法要不要補？它是不是法定義務？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這還是中央目的主管機關負責的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是行政院藉離島條例的法定義務，如果你們不撥補會遇到什麼情況，你知道嗎？如果國庫不撥補，台電的民股可以提告喔，有沒有可能？林處長，有沒有可能提告？台電公司有民股啊！依法的法定義務行政院不負責，民股會告你啊！有沒有可能？目前離島的發電累計虧損是1,100億，決議要撥補的是2000年到2011年，告訴你們還差了550億多。後面還有2016年到2024年的要撥補，所以加起來要那麼多。最後的結論，113年離島建設基金的決算剩多少？8億8。主委，你們管的離島建設基金只剩這麼點錢，人家要的帳是1,100億，你怎麼辦？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這件事情並沒有到我這裡來，是不是讓我去了解一下？"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我告訴你怎麼辦，往下看最後的結論，請國發會繼續函詢經濟部，計算2012年到去年的離島供電虧損數額，問清楚到底這筆帳總共多少錢。第二，請你去找主計總處研究一下，預算是編列在經濟部明年度的公務預算，還是要撥補到你的離島基金，用離島基金依法去支應這筆錢，可以嗎？找主計總處研究一下。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這我們可以來研究一下整個詳細的內容。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。因為主席要我下台了，我最後說一句話，就是你要知道，如果是用離島條例的離島建設基金，那是法定義務，行政院送過來立法院不能刪，但是如果你放在經濟部的公務預算，我們去年就把今年的預算砍掉了，這也是說給主席聽的，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在請陳培瑜委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝"},{"start":9.702,"end":27.451,"text":"是 李委員好來 部長好 辛苦了這個本席請教一下在這個今年的1月12號國安局有公布一個共諜案滲透手法分析然後其中有提到就是說這一個共諜案起訴的人數明顯的上升在2021年是16人到2024年已經到了64人這個成長了4倍"},{"start":31.713,"end":43.659,"text":"然後呢 這個國安局也提到說 這個滲透的目標呢 這個包含軍事單位 政府機關 民間協會但是呢 這個現役軍人呢 去年啊 這個現役軍人 這個遭起訴的呢 有28人然後那個退役的軍人呢 遭起訴有15人 總共占這個共諜案起訴的43%"},{"start":52.944,"end":75.038,"text":"所以這個現役退役的軍人是中共對台滲透的主要的鎖定對象我不曉得部長有沒有看過國安局的這份報告是 有所以他也透過了五大滲透管道還有四大守法那主要都是針對現役或是退役的軍人比如說勾結黑幫 發展武裝內應"},{"start":79.742,"end":94.302,"text":"開設地下錢莊引誘投共利誘公廟吸引軍人刺密成立統戰的組織動員借血還有透過網路勾連部件組織等等那所以呢也因為這樣子所以賴總統這個也"},{"start":96.665,"end":120.717,"text":"因應的共諜或是中國境外的敵對勢力影響越來越嚴重所以有一個17項的國安因應策略其中跟國防部比較有相關的應該就是說要恢復軍事審判的制度未來的先移軍人如果是觸犯陸海空軍刑法的軍事犯罪案例交由軍事法院來審判"},{"start":122.958,"end":126.79,"text":"那這個其實大家都有在問我今天早上有在聽"},{"start":127.694,"end":155.025,"text":"但是呢 這個總統提出來這個在現在如果是現役軍人他如果是犯了軍事的這一個案例之後呢是由這個軍事法庭來審判那有些人也有提出有不同的意見跟看法這個是說因為我們現在的這一個不管是泄密或是共諜案都是很多的這個常態都是軍民共犯"},{"start":156.105,"end":169.274,"text":"有軍人也有民間的 民間的也有可能是退役沒多久的先吸收剛退役的軍人 再用他的人脈來滲透現役的軍人洩密叛國像雄三飛彈就是複製這種模式"},{"start":176.218,"end":200.946,"text":"那所以呢現在大家的問題在於說呢這個軍民共犯的情況呢那未來如果這個軍事審判呢就是說那現役軍人當然就是軍事審判那如果按照憲法規定的不受軍事審判的非役軍人呢就由普通的法院來審判那這種情況之下呢就會有發生說這個如果是同一個案件身份不一樣有的是現役軍人有的是這個平民或是剛退役的"},{"start":204.867,"end":230.558,"text":"那或是說呢發生案件的時間呢有可能是在他當軍人的時候但是呢這個被追溯的時候有可能是在他已經不是軍人了會遇到這種情況所以外界也有聲音說是不是這個除了這個總統他所提到說這個軍事的這一個審判法庭之外在我們的普通法院也設立這個國安的軍事專業法庭那我請教一下部長的意見我想"},{"start":235.766,"end":249.939,"text":"應該兩個,第一個就是說我們重新打造的軍事審判,重點是在於為這個因為現在還是二元化,所以平戰轉換,所以在平時要建構一個新的軍事審判體系,暫時才能夠有一定的量"},{"start":250.82,"end":278.568,"text":"那至於在軍事審判之外要不要搭配這個軍法官參審有一個這個國安法庭的一個設計我覺得這個要跟司法院做進行的要一個溝通也就是說如果是要裁掉現在按照國安國家安全法第十九條規定第十九條的規定就是說這個各級的這個法院法官辦理案件的時候呢就要設這個就可以設國安軍事專研法庭啦"},{"start":279.909,"end":299.655,"text":"他現在就我的了解他是專股然後兼辦他並沒有設置一個專者的一個專業法庭讓部長看一下這是這個司法院所提供的資料他說現在這一個國安軍事專業法庭除了有你剛才這個部長講的這個專股之外"},{"start":300.575,"end":322.895,"text":"也有專業的法庭這當然是司法院提供的資料 部長知不知道這份資料我知道就是說因為他有這樣子的要求但是現在實際的實現的狀況當然就是我早上已經有說過了因為我們早年在從事這些推動這些專業法庭的時候都會發現事實上有各種各樣的專業法庭有什麼"},{"start":325.818,"end":343.875,"text":"金融專業法庭各種專業法庭事實上這樣的一個專業法庭它會隨著人員的調動事實上這個專業法庭的專業性事實上是還是有一些質疑不過剛剛委員提到的就是說"},{"start":345.336,"end":366.434,"text":"除了用軍事審判之外那另外還有一種設計是說他如果違反國安法的相關案件那涉及到退役跟現役軍人或者是其他的民人的時候那是不是在這個國安法庭裡面由交由這個法院來審判這一件事情而且他有可能是交由高等的法院來審判"},{"start":367.855,"end":390.103,"text":"這一件事情我現在沒有辦法完全的排除但是我們軍事審判的這個制度還是要重新打造那有沒有另外有一個這樣的一個設計的可能性我們要跟史蘭做一個溝通這樣子就是說當然這個軍事的審判法庭那現在要重新打造那另外就是說我剛才所提到就是說在浦東法院"},{"start":391.003,"end":407.844,"text":"也是一個這個專業的國安的法庭是不是能夠避免我剛所提到就是說因為現在這個不管是共諜案、泄密案等等之類的它違反的有可能是違反國安法違反國安無法違反這個反滲透法那就是由這個國安專業法庭它現在"},{"start":409.125,"end":424.418,"text":"架構上是會有我稍微跟委員解釋一下就是說他涉犯國安法那如果他也同時因為他通常他一旦涉及國安法他同時應該也會涉及入海公園起碼第二篇的洩密這個等等的部分那"},{"start":424.938,"end":439.949,"text":"理論上來講犯罪一部是屬於亂供應刑法他就要受軍事審判那但是如果這個部分跟社團協商如果他有一個共犯的概念就是說這個共犯包括了現役軍人包括退役軍人等等這些共犯的部分要不要交給一個"},{"start":441.07,"end":465.568,"text":"他設了一個軍事專業法庭而這個軍事專業法庭確實是也讓我們的人可以進入一起的話這個部分的設計可能我已經看到有相關的學者提出這個概念就是參審制的概念那我們必須要跟他一起來討論也就是說這樣子的一個參審是比較接近德國制的一種參審而不是一種國民參審"},{"start":466.949,"end":482.377,"text":"那如果說不是國民參審的話那而是一種專業參審的話那這一個軍法官要不要具有軍法官的資格這個部分都還要跟史懷恩做一個協商這個其實是蠻技術有蠻專業性的這個部分還要跟史懷恩做一個協商"},{"start":483.897,"end":507.726,"text":"這個提供這個部長做參考主席我再問最後一個問題一分鐘就好了這個按照國防部所提供這個四年期國防總檢討有提到就是說國防預算要爭取到這個GDP的3%以上的目標那請問一下現在是多少我們現在國防預算佔GDP多少大概2.45%左右2.45%對那如果要達3%大概要增加多少"},{"start":508.513,"end":519.244,"text":"一千多億那這個總統他有提到就是說是不是用這個編列特別預算的方式然後讓國防預算能夠達到3%"},{"start":522.717,"end":539.867,"text":"因為我們避免都編在年度預算的話會排擠其他各部會的預算的情況之下編列特別預算是一個方式是一個比較可行的方式但是特別預算的一個編列一定要有一個條例要經過大院同意"},{"start":540.947,"end":561.233,"text":"所以我們現在的問題是在於是說我們要屬於立即應該可以快速獲得的這個部分我們才能夠編列入特別預算所以是哪些項目是我們現在可以立即快速獲得的這個部分然後合乎我們的防衛作戰的實際需要這個部分我們正在審慎的這個研議當中"},{"start":565.694,"end":585.397,"text":"那部長有來爭取說那這是因為這個稅收高於預期增加這五千多億扣掉地方有三千多億有沒有來爭取在其中的一千億來作為這個特別預算我想這個不是國防部應該要主責的事項這是主計長或者是行政院的權責國防部有沒有爭取我當然最後是由行政院來決定有沒有來爭取"},{"start":586.619,"end":600.302,"text":"我們爭取的是說按照總統的政策指示到達3%這個目標如何達成那裁員的來源這個要有行政院他來主責好 先問到這邊好了謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":728,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時6分）謝謝主席。請顧部長。"],["主席：請部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，辛苦了。我請教一下，今年1月12日國安局公布共諜案滲透手法分析，其中有提到共諜案起訴人數明顯上升，2021年是16人，2024年是64人，成長4倍，國安局也提到滲透目標包含軍事單位、政府機關、民間協會。但是現役軍人呢？去年現役軍人遭起訴的有28人，退役軍人遭起訴的有15人，總共占共諜案起訴人數的43%，所以現役、退役的軍人是中共對臺滲透的主要鎖定對象。部長有沒有看過國安局這份報告？"],["顧部長立雄：是，有。"],["李委員坤城：他們是透過五大滲透管道和四大手法，主要都是針對現役或是退役軍人，比如勾結黑幫發展武裝內應，開設地下錢莊引誘投共，利用宮廟吸引軍人刺密，成立統戰組織動員介選，還有透過網路勾聯佈建組織等等。也因為這樣，所以賴總統為了因應共諜，或是因應中國境外的敵對勢力，因為影響越來越嚴重，所以提出17項國安因應策略，其中和國防部比較相關的，應該就是恢復軍事審判制度，未來現役軍人如果觸犯陸海空軍刑法的軍事犯罪案例，就要由軍事法院審判。","關於這個部分，其實大家都在問，我今天早上也有聽了，但總統提出來的是，如果是現役軍人犯了軍事案例是由軍事法庭審判。但有些人也提出不同的意見和看法，因為現在不管是泄密或是共諜案，常態都是軍民共犯，有軍人，也有民間的，民間的也有可能是剛退役沒多久，就是先吸收剛退役的軍人，再用他的人脈滲透現役軍人洩密叛國，像雄三飛彈就是複製這種模式。","所以現在大家的問題在於，以軍民共犯的情況來看，未來如果是軍事審判，現役軍人當然就是軍事審判，但是按照憲法的規定，不受軍事審判的非現役軍人呢？就由普通法院審判。在這種情況之下，就會發生同一個案件，因為身分不一樣，有的是現役軍人，有的是平民或是剛退役的，或者發生案件的時間不同，有可能是在他當軍人的時候，但是被追訴的時候，可能，已經不是軍人了，會遇到這種情況。","所以外界也有聲音，是不是除了總統提到的軍事審判法庭之外，在普通法院也設立國安的軍事專業法庭，本席想請教一下部長的意見。"],["顧部長立雄：應該是兩個面向，第一個就是重新打造軍事審判，因為現在還是二元化，是平戰轉換，所以平時要建構一個新的軍事審判體系，戰時才能夠有一定的量能。至於在軍事審判之外，要不要搭配軍法官參審，形成一個國安法庭的設計，我覺得這要和司法院進行溝通。也就是說，如果要採這樣……"],["李委員坤城：部長，現在按照國家安全法第十九條規定，各級法院法官辦理案件的時候就可以設國安軍事專業法庭。"],["顧部長立雄：就我現在的了解，它是專股、兼辦，並沒有設置專業法庭。"],["李委員坤城：請部長看一下，這是司法院提供的資料。它說現在這個國安軍事專業法庭，除了剛才部長說的專股之外，也有專業的法庭，這是司法院提供的資料。部長知不知道這份資料？"],["顧部長立雄：對，我知道，因為它有這樣的要求嘛！但是現在考量到實際的狀況，我早上已經說過，因為我們早年在推動這些專業法庭的時候發現，事實上有各種各樣的專業法庭，例如金融專業法庭等等，這樣的專業法庭會隨著人員的調動，專業性……"],["李委員坤城：就不專業？"],["顧部長立雄：還是會有一些質疑。不過剛剛委員提到的，除了用軍事審判之外，另外還有一種設計，如果違反國安法的相關案件涉及退役和現役軍人，或者是其他民人的時候，是不是在這個國安法庭裡面，交由法院來審判這件事情，而且有可能是交由高等法院審判，這件事情，我現在沒有辦法完全排除，但是軍事審判這個制度還是要重新打造。至於有沒有另外一個設計的可能性？我們要和司法院溝通。"],["李委員坤城：當然，現在要重新打造軍事審判法庭，另外就是本席剛才提到的，在普通法院也設一個專業的國安法庭，這樣是不是能夠避免剛才提到的問題？因為現在不管是共諜案、洩密案等等，他有可能是違反國安法、國安五法或反滲透法，所以由國安專業法庭審理，現在架構上會有……"],["顧部長立雄：我稍微向委員解釋一下，通常他一旦涉及國安法，應該同時也會涉及陸海空軍刑法第二編的洩密等部分，就理論上來說，因為這屬於陸海空軍刑法的範疇，所以他就要受軍事審判。如果就這個部分和司法院協商，因為有一個共犯的概念，這個共犯包括現役軍人、退役軍人等等，這些共犯要不要交給另設的軍事專業法庭？這個軍事專業法庭是否也能讓我們的人一起參與？這個部分的設計，我已經看到有相關學者提出這個概念。"],["李委員坤城：這是參審制的概念。"],["顧部長立雄：我們必須要和他們一起討論。也就是說，這樣的參審是比較接近德國制的參審，而不是國民參審，如果不是國民參審，而是一種專業參審的話，這個軍法官要不要具有軍法官的資格？這些都還要和司法院協商。其實這部分關係到技術方面和專業性，這個部分還要和司法院協商啦！"],["李委員坤城：這個意見提供部長參考。主席，本席再問最後一個問題，1分鐘就好。按照國防部提供的四年期國防總檢討，有提到國防預算要爭取到GDP3%以上的目標，請問一下現在國防預算占多少？"],["顧部長立雄：大概2.45%左右。"],["李委員坤城：如果要達到3%，大概要增加多少？"],["顧部長立雄：一千多億元。"],["李委員坤城：總統有提到，是不是以編列特別預算的方式，讓國防預算能夠達到3%。"],["顧部長立雄：要避免都編列在年度預算，是因為這樣會排擠其他部會的預算，所以編列特別預算是一個比較可行的方式。但是編列特別預算一定要有一個條例，要經過大院同意，所以我們現在的問題是在於，必須是屬於立即、應該可以快速獲得的部分，才能夠編入特別預算，所以哪些項目是現在可以立即、快速獲得的，也合乎我們防衛作戰的實際需要，這個部分我們正在審慎研議當中。"],["李委員坤城：這次因為稅收高於預期，增加了五千多億元，扣掉地方的三千多億元，你們有沒有爭取其中的1,000億元做為特別預算？"],["顧部長立雄：我想這不是國防部應該主責的事項，這是主計長或者是行政院的權責。"],["李委員坤城：本席是問國防部有沒有爭取？當然，最後是由行政院決定。有沒有爭取？"],["顧部長立雄：我們爭取的是，按照總統的政策指示達到3%這個目標如何達成。至於財源，這部分要由行政院主責。"],["李委員坤城：好，先問到這邊好了。謝謝！謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝李委員，謝謝部長。","接下來請邱志偉委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}},{"id":"159387","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159387","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8438480dcc62ff48ccea595bacfac0e47dee5d615e4ae620b3b970c124de97d675ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"12:02:49 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.108,"text":"好謝謝主席還有各位部會同仁和立委同仁大家好那我是不是先請劉主委劉主委"},{"start":29.754,"end":43.1,"text":"本期長期在教育文化委員會所以對於整個人才的培育非常的重視所以今天整個質詢的議題大概聚焦在如何強化國際與本土專業人才的延攬與培育確保我們的產業競爭力"},{"start":44.981,"end":55.656,"text":"所以我這邊談一下依據我這邊調到的資料在113年到115年重點產業人才供需調查及推估當中台灣有18項重點產業有8項面臨人才的短處"},{"start":59.741,"end":89.104,"text":"那麼其中IC設計智慧機械跟數位醫療等領域的缺口特別嚴重超過七成的企業明確指出專業人才不足那我這邊想請教主委你們是不是已經有掌握整個IC設計智慧機械數位醫療等產業的人才缺口那麼目前實際的短缺人數是多少那第二個部分是針對這些產業的人才短缺那你們有哪一些具體的措施跟成效評估的機制"},{"start":91.165,"end":105.619,"text":"跟委員報告我們在做人力需求推估的時候我們的確就是依據產業別來做推估那我也跟委員報告我們在做比較細的探討跟教育部這些單位在探討的時候他們覺得最大的麻煩是"},{"start":106.901,"end":131.104,"text":"台灣產業要的是次產業跟次次產業的人力需求譬如說IC設計它有邏輯的有類比的然後又依據製程它又會有不同的變化那又依據用途又有不同的變化那他們整個從政府的角度來講光一個IC設計可能就會分出二三十種的類別"},{"start":131.664,"end":146.427,"text":"那這樣的人才的規劃上面是目前我們遇到比較大的困境所以是在這個細節的部分嗎所以我們現在只能做到就是您這邊寫到的像IC智慧機械 數位醫療我們有這個數字我們可以送過去您辦公室給您"},{"start":146.906,"end":174.563,"text":"好的 那就麻煩您補一下這個資料但是我們在執行上就會目前比較大的困境是在產業要的是更是的 這就是本席來這邊要跟您探討的因為過去我在對於教育的這個部分的人才有一些關注那當然我也很關注的未來的這個學用合一的問題所以除了您剛才講的那個資料是不是也可以把你們對於這些具體的措施一個成效評估的機制也送給本席你們如果有相關的資料"},{"start":175.444,"end":205.024,"text":"好不好好的好謝謝那第二個部分就是我剛才講到的那個學用合一啦那麼國發會你們在110年8月開始推動強化人口及移民政策那目標是希望在110年到119年延攬7萬名的國際專業人才那裡面包括國際的5萬人還有特定的專業人才要2萬人那可是審計部在112年的決算審核當中呢指出你們應該進一步來掌握就業金卡"},{"start":205.885,"end":224.166,"text":"的取得情形還有來臺就業狀況及申請意願並強化Talent Taiwan國際人才服務及延攬中心與各機關的協調來改善這個延攬的成效所以我有針對一下幾個人才的目標進度還有就業金卡機制的實施成效"},{"start":224.827,"end":243.185,"text":"Talent台灣中心的運作效能還有你們在跨部會跨機關協調的成效評估這幾個問題如果這裡面有你直接可以用口語回答的你就跟本席回答如果沒有麻煩你補資料好嗎我剛剛講到那四點您有沒有可以直接跟本席回應的"},{"start":244.646,"end":272.729,"text":"我跟這個委員報告我們現在就Talent台灣就業金卡我們現在是定期有在掌握數字我到上個月為止是一萬兩千多張卡片那大概這裡面有些人他是用業主的方式進來的因為他是比較高端我們這是給的是月薪16萬以上的這樣人才所以有些人會在國外出差等等大概有40%左右的人在台灣"},{"start":273.75,"end":282.541,"text":"所以您剛才講的這個比例結構我想時間的關係您是不是把相關的資料送給本席好嗎我剛剛有講了四點希望你們的同仁有記下來就是知道嘛我應該不用再補述那個目標我們是存在的"},{"start":290.191,"end":307.684,"text":"那另外我也跟您報告我們現在會做一個改變就是我們會以通路改變從企業的角度就是我們在攬財的通路要擴大我們過去比較仰賴Talent台灣自己做我們希望把它擴大將來會變成民間企業組然後分到部會去然後大家一起來拉然後這個量才會變大"},{"start":308.024,"end":313.249,"text":"好的 這也就像你們現在跟勞動部、經濟部還有教育部的聯繫我希望也能夠更緊密當然你們現在有對產業那我相信這幾個部會應該在對學校、對產業還有對其他相關的他們應對的組織或人口會給你們更大的一個支持"},{"start":326.081,"end":342.82,"text":"所以可能部會之間也要再更緊密那接下來就是本席要談的其實就是人才培育跟產業學的合作那這個就談到本席長期關注在整個教育體系怎麼樣培育人才的這個部分所以我們目前儘管今年"},{"start":343.28,"end":369.539,"text":"大家在這個資工等等因為AI產業的關係我們有很多學生要進入這樣子一個領域但是人才的數量跟品質其實還是沒有辦法同步的提升這除了在教育體系我們對學生品質提升以外那個在人才的這個部分我想跟您請教產業界也有普遍反映大學畢業的學生技能跟實務需求落差過大那要直接上線的時間也比以前越來越長"},{"start":370.76,"end":391.356,"text":"那你們如何改善產學落差的這個問題然後讓學生能夠畢業及就業那第二個部分是你們是不是有具體的計畫來提升理工畢業生的實務技能可不可以提供某些誘因來鼓勵企業與學界合作加速人才養成不過這個部分本行應和教育委員會大概對於教育部所提的機制"},{"start":391.736,"end":405.377,"text":"有蠻深的了解本席今天問你最主要是想從國發會的這個觀點國家整體的政策戰略地位來探討這個問題那你可以有很快的跟本席做一個回應嗎那如果沒有就補資料好不好好"},{"start":406.277,"end":433.545,"text":"那這個我大概很快講一下我們目前對於產協落差的部分我們現在是有補助到協助到研究所這個層級那協助這個研究所這包括博士生研究所整個以術生為主海涵博士生我們讓這個產業的業師進來教課那我們協助他們可以在學在那個教師費成本上面我們有協助他會不會是你們主政的嘛對不對我們不是主政我們是"},{"start":434.866,"end":461.422,"text":"出钱协助教育部所以是教育部提出来的吗对这些还是以教育部为主那刚才我提的就是跟产业界合作怎么样加速我们就书面报告给你是的最后一个可以请你直接本席怎么样了解应该是我们的高阶人才外流的数据其实我可以请教你很快的主要目前流向哪一些国家那面对高薪挖角的台湾人才那我们有"},{"start":462.403,"end":469.878,"text":"調整薪資結構的一些想法或政策規劃嗎或者是提高某一些誘因來留任高階的人才"},{"start":470.902,"end":497.572,"text":"我們高階人才外流就我的了解在實務面的話對岸的比較多因為他大概都用兩倍到三倍的薪資把我們挖走但這個裡面同時也常常會產生糾紛您可以看到新聞譬如說台達電等等都有去控告他一些離職的主管那這個部分我們是有提醒各單位我們是不是可以參考"},{"start":499.293,"end":524.601,"text":"營業秘密法跟國安法來做一些比較關注另外有一些是到歐美所以您這邊提到對岸是最多我這邊其實也有建議說你怎麼提高誘因與其現在圍堵或者是用禁止的方式有沒有可能我們內在本質也可以做一些調整我的意思是更積極面我剛才講到透過誘因來提高人才的留任率我們是想從誘因來下手"},{"start":527.142,"end":531.286,"text":"因為我們人民有移動的自由我們比較難去限制那怎麼樣去改善我們這邊的生活"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":764,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（12時3分）謝謝主席。各位部會同仁和立院同仁大家好，是不是先請劉主委？"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員午安。"],["林委員倩綺：劉主委好。本席長期在教育及文化委員會，對於整個人才的培育非常重視，所以今天整個質詢的議題，大概聚焦在如何強化國際與本土專業人才的延攬與培育，確保我們的產業競爭力？依據我調到的資料，113年到115年重點產業人才供需調查及推估報告，臺灣18項重點產業中，有8項面臨人才短絀。其中IC設計、智慧機械跟數位醫療等領域的缺口特別嚴重，超過七成的企業明確指出專業人才不足。我想請教主委，你們是不是已經有掌握整個IC設計、智慧機械、數位醫療等產業的人才缺口？目前實際的短缺人數是多少？第二個部分，針對這些產業的人才短缺，你們有哪些具體的措施跟成效評估的機制？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，我們在做人力需求推估的時候，的確是依據產業別來推估，而我們在跟教育部等單位做比較細的探討時，他們覺得最大的麻煩是，臺灣產業要的是次產業跟次次產業的人力需求，譬如說IC設計，它有邏輯的、有類比的，然後依據製程，會有不同的變化；依據用途，又有不同的變化。從政府的角度來講，光一個IC設計可能就會分出二、三十種類別，這樣的人才規劃上面，是目前我們遇到比較大的困境……"],["林委員倩綺：所以是在細節的部分嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在只能做到您這邊寫到的，像IC、智慧機械、數位醫療，我們有這個數字，我們可以送過去您的辦公室給您。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，麻煩您補一下這個資料。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是在執行上，目前比較大的困境是產業要的是更細……"],["林委員倩綺：是的，這就是本席來這邊要跟您探討的，因為過去我對於教育人才這部分有一些關注，當然我也很關注未來學用合一的問題，所以除了您剛才講的那個資料，對於具體措施與成效評估的機制，如果你們有相關資料，希望也可以送給本席，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。第二個部分就是我剛才講到的學用合一，國發會在110年8月開始推動「強化人口及移民政策」，目標是希望在110年到119年延攬7萬名國際專業人才，包括專業人才5萬人，還有特定專業人才2萬人。可是審計部在112年的決算審核報告中指出，你們應該進一步掌握就業金卡的取得情形，還有來臺就業狀況及申請意願，並強化Talent Taiwan國際人才服務及延攬中心與各機關的協調，來改善延攬的成效。針對人才延攬的目標進度、就業金卡機制的實施成效、Talent Taiwan中心的運作效能，還有你們在跨部會、跨機關協調的成效評估的這幾個問題，如果裡面有你可以直接用口語回答的，你就回答本席，如果沒有，麻煩你補資料好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["林委員倩綺：我剛才講的那4點，您有沒有可以直接跟本席回應的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我跟委員報告，現在就Talent Taiwan就業金卡，我們有定期在掌握數字，到上個月為止是一萬二千多張卡片，這裡面大概有些人是用業主的方式進來，因為他是比較高端，我們這個給的是月薪16萬以上的人才，所以有些人會在國外出差等等，大概有40%左右的人在臺灣……"],["林委員倩綺：您剛才講的這個比例結構，我想時間的關係，您是不是把相關的資料送給本席好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["林委員倩綺：我剛剛講了4點，希望你們的同仁有記下來，知道嗎？我應該不用再補述。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：那個目標我們是存在的，另外我也跟您報告，我們現在會做一個改變，從企業的角度做通路改變，就是我們攬才的通路要擴大。我們過去比較仰賴Talent Taiwan自己做，現在希望把它擴大，將來會變成民間企業組，然後分到部會去，大家一起來拉，這個量才會變大。"],["林委員倩綺：好，這就像你們現在跟勞動部、經濟部還有教育部的聯繫，我希望能夠更緊密。當然你們現在有對產業，我相信這幾個部會應該在對學校、對產業，還有對其他相關的應對組織或人口，會給你們更大的支持，所以可能部會之間也要再更緊密。","接下來本席要談的是人才培育跟產學的合作，這個就談到本席長期關注在整個教育體系如何培育人才的部分。目前在資工方面，因為AI產業的關係，有很多學生要進入這樣的領域，但是人才的數量跟品質還是沒有辦法同步提升。除了在教育的體系，我們對學生品質提升以外，在人才的部分，我想跟您請教，產業界也有普遍反映，大學畢業生的技能跟實務需求落差過大，要直接上線的時間也越來越長，你們如何改善產學落差的這個問題，然後讓學生能夠畢業即就業？第二個部分是，你們是不是有具體的計畫來提升理工畢業生的實務技能？可不可以提供某些誘因來鼓勵企業與學界合作，加速人才養成？這個部分，本席因為在教育委員會，大概對於教育部所提的機制有滿深的了解，本席今天問你，最主要是想從國發會的觀點，從國家整體的政策與戰略地位來探討這個問題，你可以很快的跟本席做一個回應嗎？如果沒有就補資料，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我大概很快講一下，目前對於產學落差的部分，我們現在有協助到研究所這個層級，協助研究所……"],["林委員倩綺：包括博士生，研究所整個……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，以碩士生為主，還含博士生，我們讓這個產業的業師進來教課，協助他們可以在教師費成本上面……"],["林委員倩綺：這個部分是你們主政的，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們不是主政，我們是出錢協助教育部。"],["林委員倩綺：OK，所以是教育部提出來的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，這些還是以教育部為主。"],["林委員倩綺：好，剛才我提的就是跟產業界的合作，怎麼樣加速……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其他部分我們就以書面報告給您。"],["林委員倩綺：是的，最後一個本席要了解，我們高階人才外流的數據，目前主要流向哪一些國家？面對高薪挖角的臺灣人才，我們有調整薪資結構的想法或政策規劃嗎？或者是提高某一些誘因，來留任高階的人才？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們高階人才外流，就我的了解，在實務面的話，對岸的比較多，因為他大概都用兩倍……"],["林委員倩綺：都流到對岸嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，用兩倍到三倍的薪資把人才挖走，但這裡面同時也常常會產生糾紛，您可以看到新聞，譬如台達電等等，都有去控告一些離職的主管。這個部分我們有提醒各單位，可以參考營業秘密法跟國安法，來做一些比較……"],["林委員倩綺：好，主委最後一個提醒，針對這一題……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：另外有些是到歐美……"],["林委員倩綺：是，所以您這邊提到對岸是最多，我這邊其實也有建議怎麼樣提高誘因，與其現在圍堵或者是用禁止的方式，有沒有可能我們內在本質也可以做一些調整？我的意思是說更積極面，就是透過誘因來提高人才的留任率，是不是請你們也做個思考？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們是想從誘因來下手，因為人民有移動的自由，我們比較難去限制，那怎麼樣去改善我們這邊的薪資……"],["林委員倩綺：是，好的，所以誘因麻煩您好好的思考一下，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們現在請鍾佳濱委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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部長文安辛苦了我快速跟部長討論一下在勞動部裡面跟兒少有關的相關權益那之前的麥當勞案我想我就不再贅述不過我們現在目前在現場看到的狀況是15歲到19歲的就業人口逼近10萬人我相信這個狀況應該會越來越多有許多的孩子之所以需要這麼早去打工很多時候都是因為他原生家庭的弱勢"},{"start":47.182,"end":73.642,"text":"但是這個弱勢也好或者是因為他很年輕或者是他不夠有的社會經驗導致於他們在現場工作的時候因為不熟悉相關的法規還有申訴的管道所以很多孩子們在現場受到的性騷性侵還有其他的案件其實都很難以求助而這個狀況其實越來越嚴重我們本來期望 下一張我們本來期望在兒少法期將修法的時候我們可以把相關的權益寫得更清楚"},{"start":74.062,"end":81.308,"text":"可是我們遺憾的看到衛福部目前給我們的版本是說在兒少法裡面34、35、36跟兒少就業權益有關的他們決定刪除因為他們認為這個在勞動部的就業服務法還有職業訓練法裡面內容都是一致的因為服務的都是15到18歲的特定對象"},{"start":97.46,"end":114.426,"text":"認為勞動部已經提供相關服務所以衛福部說兒少法要刪掉可是我看到很多擔心的現象是除了這個我認為衛福部應該要積極找你們討論不知道部長你覺得怎麼樣你怎麼看這個狀態他們現在預告可能會是往這個方向走"},{"start":115.885,"end":135.995,"text":"嗯 當然 如果衛福部要找我們討論 我們很樂意跟他們討論好 因為我們其實之前有開過兒少全法的公聽會在公聽會上 已經有很多學者專家還有很多機構的老師們說其實孩子們在現場打工所遇到的狀況可能不是只有勞動部可以協助的很多相關的權益其實還是跟衛福部有關所以我們辦公室之後會想要拜託勞動部跟衛福部跟我們一起來討論如果要刪 那勞動部這邊怎麼幫忙或者是不刪 我們怎麼樣加強一起協助兒少 好不好"},{"start":145.677,"end":172.776,"text":"我想最終的目的還是希望兒少在打工相關的權益上面能夠得到確保所以當然衛福部會怎麼在他們的法案在他們主管的法案裡面去做修訂這部分當然全都是在衛福部可是我們當然很願意跟委員辦公室這邊來去做配合針對達成剛才講那個最終目的的事情那看我們勞發署在相關的這個業務裡面可以來怎麼來協助"},{"start":173.997,"end":179.822,"text":"謝謝部長那我們之後再來召開會議喔其實我必須要說勞動部現在的對於年輕人的協助其實是有的我們有相關的就業輔導那不過呢這個就業輔導計畫比較是針對就業前的媒合還有技能訓練這當然是非常重要的一環那不過務實的是在進入職場之後就是如同我剛剛說的因為權益受損或者是不知道去哪裡尋求支持還有協助"},{"start":198.797,"end":222.574,"text":"所以呢這個部分我們也要拜託衛福部不好意思勞動部之後如何協助小孩好我們來看另外一個其實在勞動部的跨部會喔勞動部跟教育部在衛福部其實從109年就開始成立一個跨部會的兒少職場安全衛生權益小組我們調了相關的會議記錄不過這個會議記錄是公開上網的一般人都查得到"},{"start":223.274,"end":226.558,"text":"會議記錄裡面呢從109年開始到目前為止一年只開兩次會而且那個會議記錄寫得越來越簡單因為都只是各個部會跨部會開會的時候把各自已經有做的事情丟出來說我們有做A我們做了B我們做了C"},{"start":240.672,"end":251.762,"text":"各自說完之後就結束了其實比較沒有看到針對相關的個案進行討論或者是對那半年之中可能社會上發生了什麼樣的事情我們進行檢討我們覺得很可惜部長你知道這個會議嗎"},{"start":257.213,"end":273.397,"text":"我有聽說過這個會議 但是因為我上任後應該還沒有開但我知道可能是三月底的時候會再開一次對 沒錯 我們也算了一下時間 應該是三月底會開所以我才今天特別來想要拜託部長可不可以把我們剛剛說的這些議題帶進去這個跨部會小組裡面討論一個是我剛剛說的修法的問題跟衛福部討論關於兒少全法跟勞動部這邊怎麼配合"},{"start":282.139,"end":299.642,"text":"另外就是兒少職場安全衛生權益小組裡面的功能我們認為可以再更加精進包含是不是把特殊的個案可以拿進去討論後續大家如何跨部會合作或者是就算沒有特殊個案但是我們所收集到的很多兒少在現場工作所遇到的困境如何透過輿情的系統回報給各個部會讓部長您帶到這個權益小組裡面去討論我們都希望可以看到比較實質的推進跟進度"},{"start":308.144,"end":319.793,"text":"這邊可不可以請部長簡單回應一下跟陳委員說明我當然樂見這個在部裡面相關的小組的機制能夠有效所以讓這些相關的會議討論實質的問題然後實質的解決事情"},{"start":324.136,"end":343.371,"text":"那我認為這當然我們是非常樂見其成的所以我會請這個我們的夜館單位來跟委員這邊當然請提供一些相關重要的議題那如果需要的話放到這個會議上面來做實質的討論或者是一些相關的言商這當然我們是沒有問題"},{"start":343.871,"end":350.879,"text":"好因為我們不會只有追勞動部這邊我們也同步跟教育部跟衛福部確認了如何在這個跨部會的小組裡面把實質的問題進行討論跟檢討好以上謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1062,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時5分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席（劉委員建國）：有請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長午安，辛苦了！我快速跟部長討論一下在勞動部裡面與兒少相關的權益，之前的麥當勞案我就不再贅述，我們目前在現場看到的狀況是，15歲到19歲的就業人口逼近10萬人，我相信這個狀況應該會越來越多。有許多的孩子之所以需要這麼早去打工，很多時候都是因為他原生家庭的弱勢，但是這個弱勢也好，或者是因為他很年輕，或者是他不夠有社會經驗，導致他們在現場工作的時候，因為不熟悉相關的法規與申訴的管道，所以很多孩子們在現場受到性騷、性侵還有其他的案件，其實都很難求助，而這個狀況越來越嚴重。","我們本來期望在兒少法即將修法的時候，可以把相關的權益寫得更清楚，可是我們遺憾地看到衛福部目前給我們的版本是說，在兒少法裡面，第三十四條、第三十五條、第三十六條跟兒少就業權益有關的，他們決定刪除，因為他們認為這個在勞動部的就業服務法及職業訓練法裡面，內容都是一致的，因為服務的都是15到18歲的特定對象，認為勞動部已經提供相關服務，所以衛福部說兒少法要刪掉。可是我看到很多擔心的現象是，除了這個，我認為衛福部應該要積極找你們討論，不知道部長覺得怎麼樣？你怎麼看這個狀態？他們現在預告可能會往這個方向走。"],["洪部長申翰：如果衛福部來找我們討論，我們很樂意跟他們討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，因為我們之前有開過兒少權法的公聽會，在公聽會上已經有很多學者專家，還有很多機構的老師們說，其實孩子們在現場打工所遇到的狀況，可能不是只有勞動部可以協助，很多相關的權益還是與衛福部有關，所以我們辦公室之後會想要拜託勞動部及衛福部跟我們一起討論，如果要刪，在勞動部這邊要怎麼幫忙，或者是不刪，我們怎麼樣加強，一起來協助兒少，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：我想最終的目的還是希望兒少在打工相關的權益上面能夠得到確保啦！"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["洪部長申翰：衛福部會怎麼在他們主管的法案裡面去修訂，這部分當然權責是在衛福部，不過我們很願意與委員辦公室配合，達成剛才講那個最終目的的事情，看我們勞發署在相關的業務裡面可以怎麼協助。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長，我們之後再來召開會議。我必須要說，勞動部現在對於年輕人的協助其實是有的，我們有相關的就業輔導，不過這個就業輔導計畫比較是針對就業前的媒合還有技能訓練。這當然是非常重要的一環，不過務實的是在進入職場之後，就如同我剛剛說的，因為權益受損，或者是不知道去哪裡尋求支持及協助，所以這個部分我們也要拜託勞動部，之後如何來協助小孩。","另外一個，在跨部會方面，勞動部跟教育部、衛福部其實從109年就開始成立一個跨部會的兒少職場安全衛生權益小組，我們調了相關的會議紀錄，這個會議紀錄是公開上網的，一般人都查得到。在會議紀錄裡面，從109年開始到目前為止，一年只開兩次會，而且那個會議紀錄寫得越來越簡單，因為都只是各個部會在跨部會開會的時候，把各自已經有做的事情丟出來，說我們有做了A，我們做了B，我們做了C，各自說完之後就結束了，其實比較沒有看到針對相關的個案進行討論，或者是對那半年之中可能社會上發生了什麼樣的事情進行檢討，我們覺得很可惜。部長，你知道這個會議嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我有聽說過這個會議，不過我上任後應該還沒有開，但是我知道可能在3月底的時候會再開一次。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，沒錯，我們也算了一下時間，應該是3月底會開，所以我今天特別來拜託部長，可不可以把我們剛剛說的這些議題帶進去這個跨部會小組裡面討論？一個是我剛剛說的修法問題，跟衛福部討論關於兒少權法與勞動部要怎麼配合。另外就是兒少職場安全衛生權益小組裡面的功能，我們認為可以更加精進，包含是不是可以把特殊的個案拿進去討論，後續大家如何跨部會合作，或者是就算沒有特殊個案，但是我們所蒐集到很多兒少在現場工作所遇到的困境，如何透過輿情的系統回報給各個部會，讓部長帶到這個權益小組裡面去討論。我們都希望可以看到比較實質的推進跟進度，可不可以請部長簡單回應一下？"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，我當然樂見在部裡面相關小組的機制能夠有效，讓這些相關的會議討論實質的問題，然後實質地解決事情，當然我們是非常樂見其成的，所以我會請我們的業管單位來跟委員瞭解，請提供一些相關重要的議題，如果有需要的話，放到這個會議上面做實質的討論，或者是一些相關的研商，我們認為沒有問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，因為我們不會只有追勞動部這邊，我們也會同步跟教育部、衛福部確認，如何在這個跨部會的小組裡面就實質的問題進行討論與檢討。以上，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員，謝謝部長。各位官員如果要用餐就請便。","接下來請楊曜委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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我們現在好多村裡是沒有活動中心的那為什麼要沒有活動中心呢 因為我們內政部齁在補助齁 村裡齁 不管是活動中心或者是辦公室齁 反正就是集會所我們每案就補助400萬這個400萬已經20幾年沒有變了齁 那我們知道現在整個營運的 營建的成本都提高成這樣"},{"start":77.057,"end":94.044,"text":"這個補助400萬這件事情內政部補助400萬完全沒有調整這造成說事實上我們單地中央補助這400萬對地方來說第一還是抽不出錢對整個地方來說他還是沒有辦法達到所以我認為這400萬要調整"},{"start":95.505,"end":110.815,"text":"事實上就這麼簡單這個應該國發會站在你們的高度跟內政部溝通一下就沒問題了吧我們會去溝通啦但是內政部他可能要看他現在可動之的預算還有明年財劃法之後對 現在又卡到這兩個問題所以當然這兩個問題卡在那邊因為這些做現代的事都變歹勢了就變成醫療生命等境外的人來很歹勢但是溝通還是要做的狀況"},{"start":122.904,"end":129.396,"text":"那這些狀況都造成整個的自愛難行那這是第一個第二個就是說因為事實上台灣我們的"},{"start":132.442,"end":153.592,"text":"這個少子化問題這個很嚴重所以在這個少子化問題的嚴重是讓我單舉兩個這天下雜誌的一個統計數字在2022年全台灣就有179個村裡這個村裡是沒有小孩子的當年度沒有半個小孩子出生整棟喔"},{"start":154.572,"end":165.524,"text":"就149個,然後你看幾乎每個地方都有新北26個,我們嘉義縣竟然是第二名21個,苗栗縣是9個那如果以另外一個數據來看的話有11個村以內是連鎖5棟連鎖5棟都沒有"},{"start":173.626,"end":200.171,"text":"包括新北的平溪的青銅里啦 瑞芳的銅山里啦我們嘉義縣布袋鎮的考試里 梅山的這個壁湖村台南的中坑里 高雄岐山的中寮里連鎖五檔一個小朋友就沒有三星出來這個當然有好多的問題 少子化本身也是一個問題但是第二個就是說 呈現出來就是這個政科"},{"start":202.432,"end":230.133,"text":"樽咖沒年輕人當然就沒孩子的三星樽咖為什麼沒年輕人就是因為樽咖的土地因為氣氛的關係高度的持分所以樽咖的建地算沒用去年輕人我如果要買房子我還是我伯伯伯伯都在家裡我可能去選擇民雄我可能去選擇鋪子但是我不會選擇在鄰近的溪口或者是六角為什麼呢因為我的樽頭"},{"start":232.523,"end":250.518,"text":"我年輕人 我在那裡 我要去哪裡都沒辦法 都是緝昏所以這個問題需要被解決所以我們這一次在國土計劃法 我們在展延六年的時候我們有訂了第八條 讓鄉村規劃入法就是說未來縣市政府必須要就鄉村的這個研擬鄉村的規劃"},{"start":255.783,"end":272.984,"text":"這是八條所以鄉村規劃要怎麼增加至少它的地目必須做有效的一個調整第一個 解決池噴問題第二個 讓他們這個增加它必須要有所謂的三生嘛要有生活生產生態"},{"start":275.566,"end":292.171,"text":"這都是國安會主導的啊那我現在想要請教主委的是說好那我們國有計劃嘛既然已經有這六年的時間我們這六年的時間要怎麼做好鄉村規劃讓所有的真咖現在這個真咖的土地沒有辦法被利用的事情做一個解決"},{"start":293.737,"end":319.802,"text":"委員講得非常有道理所以我這邊我來找內政部國土署我們一起來討論也跟內政部的劉部長我們一起討論看看怎麼樣去做好鄉村規劃那現在就我了解他們也有意願往這個方向去來做一個規劃利用這個6年的延展6年的這個期間好好地把整個鄉村規劃做好"},{"start":320.822,"end":348.673,"text":"好 所以諸位我具體建議因為這個牽涉到的第一個持分問題也難解第二個地幕問題也難解那這個當然就是說找國土署當然也要找農委會的那個水保及鄉村發展署大概這兩個單位是必要的那重點就是說國發會是不是能站在上位概念的一個立場我們應該要針對這六年先把要進行鄉村規劃"},{"start":351.195,"end":367.809,"text":"中央政府我們用鄉村規劃的一個設計的一個規劃費用這應該是規劃費用是不是要先匡列出來而且他必須要一套計劃這六年我們需要多少我們假設每年可能會有多少"},{"start":368.55,"end":383.384,"text":"聚落會有多少村莊想要走鄉規要走鄉規的時候應該他有一個前階段的一些預算之後才會有後面人要去簽同意嘛對不對要有轉眼要有時間要簽同意那些都要時間要第一次一項的東西要先放出來好"},{"start":388.709,"end":402.166,"text":"所以我覺得國發會這件事情至少可以先把這件事情先盤整好接下來再請國土署啊或者是農業部的這個這個水保局那邊讓我沒關係我們找內政部跟農業部來開會來討論這樣的事情好"},{"start":406.751,"end":413.537,"text":"那這件事情就請主委那第三個議題就是說我們現在知道整個南台灣就是這個大南方的一個矽谷計畫那大南方矽谷計畫當然就是以高雄、台南以及嘉義他們要怎麼把這一個"},{"start":426.068,"end":441.473,"text":"晶圓的產業現在整個台積電的佈局不管是在台南或者是高雄他們的晶圓的一個生產基地或者是未來在嘉義的封裝基地那這個地方是變成一個大南方的一個矽谷那所以交通的問題才重要"},{"start":442.593,"end":465.034,"text":"因為我們說三葉起來,一定要貨倉齊流,要如何讓流通這些晶片要如何行山起來,要去封莊,封莊起來要去基調,基調要用貨運達成財處理,這都是很多學問的所以溝通的問題就要改觀,所以我們知道現在南科照跟高雄有一個S郎帶的計畫"},{"start":466.315,"end":479.241,"text":"這S郎帶幾乎就是要南科到高雄那些整個園區包括沙崙園區包括南科包括橋科甚至到了高雄的小港那是S郎帶的部分那S郎帶就處理台南"},{"start":484.484,"end":502.372,"text":"但是未來還有嘉科這一段嘉義 高雄 台南 到屏東啦四個地方對 到屏東 到屏東嘛到屏東好 所以這個S郎帶起來之後上面還有一段就是從太保到南科這一段所以主委你可以看這段是什麼這段是不是"},{"start":506.637,"end":524.083,"text":"我以為這條橘色的這條是什麼?37的延伸這條就是高鐵高鐵這條就是高鐵高鐵就是沿著台37線在上面台37線但是台37線你看只有到只有到這個太保這裡的燈"},{"start":526.209,"end":546.538,"text":"所以這一段好可惜因為這一段就是高鐵喔所以我們現在台37線的延伸就是所謂高鐵下面高鐵的高架的下面這條台座樓所以你看徵收也很方便這條坐起來很方便的你現在這一條你看起來是一個I型的對不對"},{"start":550.735,"end":568.64,"text":"所以我剛才說SI,S人道,這條就是I人道SI是什麼?SI就是系統整合就是C啦C喔C喔C喔,不是死去的C喔C是什麼?C就是晶圓啦所以我講的這條SI的產業人道"},{"start":576.581,"end":591.783,"text":"對不對,就是所謂的以後就是這個矽谷的一個重要的幹線所以我要跟主委說,現在既然有S人代要做,有台南、高雄、屏東,現在跟嘉義這條I的部分,第一年不分是不是也是要做"},{"start":592.324,"end":598.31,"text":"要走 要走 因為這會經過新營流營嘛那邊也有很多人 維泰寶新娘 柳娘一直拚下去到新七這個整個又因為高鐵的橋下道路所以方便徵收"},{"start":610.023,"end":619.077,"text":"所以做起來也會比較符合成本可以遵截然後又可以有一條筆直快速的道路以後所有的這個晶圓產業不管是要跑去哪裡要跑北跑南都方便"},{"start":623.977,"end":652.776,"text":"所以主委這點讓你來支持你來推動我們來支持啦我了解現在在做一個可行性研究啦但是可行性研究會拖可行性研究會拖所以我建議分段實施分段實施 好啊我們來跟一個對 你知道可行性研究它又牽扯到每一個地方有不同的環評的條件該環評還是走環評但是不用環評的地方可以先分段為實施比方說我們太保到新營這一段"},{"start":653.716,"end":676.855,"text":"這個就沒有返品的問題因為它中間比較沒有經過一些人家說的失地的地方我認為像這種可以跳開返品的我們應該就要先實施可以這個可行研究一過就可以做分段實施了就可以跳開照圍的方式來跳開那就請主委來規劃一下SI產業人道最好SI產業這樣提供廢物住地我們就是一定要拚好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":714,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時51分）謝謝召委，有請國發會主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：蔡委員午安。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委好。上午大概很多委員都跟你聊了，包括臺灣的半導體以及很多產業的布局，但是我覺得有一些跟生活比較有關，然後比較鄉村的事情，事實上也是國發會管的，國發會就是管國家的資金政策。我直接跟主委報告，我們在講村里的辦公室、村里的活動中心，現在好多村里是沒有活動中心的，為什麼沒有活動中心呢？因為內政部在補助村里，不管是活動中心或者是辦公室，反正它就是集會所，每案補助400萬，這個400萬已經二十幾年沒有變了。我們知道現在營建的成本提高成這樣，內政部補助400萬這件事情完全沒有調整，造成中央補助這400萬，但地方還是籌不出錢，所以我認為這400萬要調整。事實上就這麼簡單，這個應該國發會站在你們的高度跟內政部溝通一下，就沒問題了吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們會去溝通啦！但是內政部可能要看現在可動支的預算，還有明年財劃法之後……"],["蔡委員易餘：現在又卡到這兩個問題，當然這兩個問題卡在那裡……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒關係，我們先來說……"],["蔡委員易餘：很多事情都變得不好推動，變成以後是不是地方政府要自己來……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：很難推動，但是溝通還是要做。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，這些都是很小的狀況，但這些狀況卻造成整個窒礙難行，這是第一個。","第二個，臺灣少子化問題很嚴重，我舉兩個例子，根據天下雜誌的統計數字，2022年全臺灣就有179個村里當年度沒有半個小孩出生，整年就有179個村里。你看幾乎每個地方都有，新北市26個，我們嘉義縣竟然是第二名21個、苗栗縣19個；如果以另外一個數據來看的話，有11個村里連續5年都沒有小孩出生，包括新北市平溪區的菁桐里、瑞芳區的銅山里，我們嘉義縣布袋鎮的考試里、梅山鄉的碧湖村，臺南龍崎區的中坑里，高雄旗山區的中寮里，連續5年一個小朋友都沒有出生。這個當然有好多的問題，少子化本身也是一個問題，但是呈現出來的就是鄉村沒有年輕人，當然就沒有小孩出生。鄉村為什麼沒有年輕人？就是因為鄉村土地高度持分的關係，所以鄉村的建地沒有用。年輕人如果要買房子，一樣都在嘉義，我可能就選擇民雄、朴子，但是我不會選擇在鄰近的溪口或者是六腳。為什麼呢？因為土地持分的問題，年輕人沒辦法在村落蓋房子，所以這個問題需要被解決。","這一次在國土計畫法展延6年的時候，我們定了第八條讓鄉村規劃入法，就是未來縣市政府必須要研擬鄉村的規劃。鄉村規劃後，至少必須讓鄉村的地目做有效的調整，第一個，解決持分問題；第二個，讓鄉村必須有所謂的三生，要有生活、生產與生態，這都是國發會主導的。我現在想要請教主委的是，國土計畫法既然已經有這6年的時間，我們這6年的時間要怎麼做好鄉村規劃，讓現在這個鄉村土地沒有辦法被利用的事情做一個解決？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員講的非常有道理，所以我找內政部國土署一起討論，也跟內政部劉部長一起討論看看，怎麼樣去做好鄉村規劃。現在就我了解，他們也有意願往這個方向去做規劃，利用延展6年的這個期間，好好的把整個鄉村規劃做好。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，主委我具體建議，因為這個牽涉到，第一個持分問題也難解，第二個地目問題也難解，這個當然就是找國土署，當然也要找農業部農村發展及水土保持署，大概這兩個單位是必要的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：重點就是，國發會是不是能站在上位概念的立場，應該要針對這6年，是不是先把中央政府要進行鄉村規劃的費用先匡列出來？而且必須要有一套計劃，這六年期間，假設每年可能會有多少聚落、會有多少村莊想要走鄉規，要走鄉規的時候應該有前階段的預算，之後才會有後面要去簽同意的部分，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，要花很多時間去簽同意。"],["蔡委員易餘：這些都需要時間去處理，但首先是規劃的費用要先匡列出來。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["蔡委員易餘：我覺得國發會至少可以先把這件事情盤整好，接下來再請國土署或是農業部的農村水保署……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們找內政部跟農業部來開會討論這件事。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，這件事情就麻煩主委了。","第三個議題，我們知道整個南臺灣的大南方矽谷計畫，當然就是推動高雄、臺南以及嘉義的晶圓產業。現在整個台積電的布局，不管是在臺南或是高雄他們的晶圓生產基地，或者是未來在嘉義的封裝基地，這個地方就變成大南方的矽谷，所以交通的問題很重要，因為我們的產業起來，一定要貨暢其流，要怎麼讓貨物流通，這些晶片生產後要封裝，封裝起來要運送去機場，用貨運載出去，這些都是學問，所以交通的問題就要解決。我們知道現在南科跟高雄有一個S廊帶的計畫，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：這個S廊帶幾乎要把南科跟高雄的整個園區，包括沙崙園區、南科、橋科，甚至到高雄的小港，那是S廊帶的部分。不過S廊帶就處理臺南跟高雄，但未來還有嘉科這一段啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：嘉義、高雄、臺南跟屏東四個地方。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，到屏東，所以這個S廊帶上面還有一段，就是從太保到南科這一段。主委你看，這段是什麼？我畫的橘色這一條是什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：台37線的延伸。"],["蔡委員易餘：這一條就是高鐵……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：高鐵？耶？"],["蔡委員易餘：這一條就是高鐵，高鐵就是沿著台37線，但是台37線到太保這裡就斷了，所以這一段好可惜，因為這一段就是高鐵。現在台37線的延伸，就是高鐵的高架下面這條可以規劃道路， 土地徵收也方便。這條做起來很方便，而且這一條看起來是一個直的I型，對不對？這條是直的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：我剛才說S廊道，這條就稱為I廊道，那SI是什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：SI就是系統整合。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是矽廊，是「矽」不是「死」喔！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我知道，是矽利康的「矽」。"],["蔡委員易餘：矽是什麼？矽就是晶圓啦！我說的這條SI產業廊道，以後就是大南方矽谷的重要幹線。所以我要跟主委說，既然有S廊帶要建置，從臺南、高雄到屏東，現在到嘉義這條I的部分，直的這條是不是也要做？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：要做、要做，因為這會經過新營、柳營，那裡以後也很重要。"],["蔡委員易餘：就是從太保、新營、柳營，一直到新市，因為這條是高鐵的橋下道路方便徵收，做起來也會比較符合撙節成本，又可以有一條筆直的快速道路，以後所有的晶圓產業不論要走哪裡，往北、往南都很方便，這個部分請主委支持好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我們會支持，據我了解現在在做可行性研究了。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是可行性研究會拖，所以我建議分段實施。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我們跟交通部討論看看。"],["蔡委員易餘：可行性研究又牽扯到每一個地方有不同的環評條件，該環評還是走環評，但是不用環評的地方可以先分段實施，比方說太保到新營這一段就沒有環評的問題，因為中間比較沒有經過濕地，我覺得像這種可以跳開環評的，我們應該就要先實施。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：可以，可行性研究一過就可以分段實施，可以照委員的方式來跳開。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那就請主委規劃一下SI產業廊道。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，真好，SI產業廊道。"],["蔡委員易餘：這是老天爺註定的，我們一定要拼！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請林倩綺委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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那我們有請顧部長是 學恩好首先呢 我們可以看一下這張手版在這裡呢這邊寫到了這個本院民進黨黨團針對這個立法院第十一屆第三會期第四次的報告事項裡面包含我拿反了 包含"},{"start":27.472,"end":56.633,"text":"第39案國民黨擬具軍人保險條例第10條跟第10條16條的修正案然後還有呢國軍廚藝官兵輔導條例還有軍人待遇條例第5條修正案跟軍人待遇條例第6條修正草案都要提出復議那我想要問一下顧部長的態度那對於立法院在對於這些我們的軍人那提出法案修正增加他們權利那請問顧部長呢您是同意還是反對"},{"start":57.856,"end":73.394,"text":"我們就這個軍人的待遇條例把它入法這件事情我們沒有贊成那軍人保險條例的部分好像修法的方向是刪除他的應該要的致富額是不是"},{"start":74.074,"end":93.632,"text":"一個是從我們就是由全額補助因為他們本來是35%是由自己自付然後我們希望可以全額補助這是一個另外一個就是過去我們就是綁四年之後第五年才能拿到一個保險的基礎也就是說如果你一二三四年你中間退掉的話那你繳的這本來的35%也會不見"},{"start":96.474,"end":111.634,"text":"那所以說對於這個來講我們很多軍人他來當軍人之後他可能兩年發現他並不是合這個工作想要離職的時候那他就會卡關大概有這兩個部分我們先請志願書說明一下好啊"},{"start":113.226,"end":136.938,"text":"委員好我是資源司司長跟委員報告一下就是軍人保險條例裡面我們雖然規定五年以後才可以勤領但是五年之內所繳的如果他提前離職我們是有退費的規定那但是這其實還是某程度去綁住了嘛因為五年之後呢比方說第六年第七年第八年來講的話其實都是能夠拿到比較好的待遇喔這是蠻多軍人有跟我們反映的一個事情"},{"start":137.418,"end":165.536,"text":"那接下来我们是希望他们长留久用啦对于说他马上就可以去理这件事情我们并不鼓励但现在状况有点不一样因为呢你看一下我们去年在国军里面自强的状况还有他们的压力甚大那有一些人他可能做了这个军人福收他发现可能在第二年第三年的时候就不太适任那我们还要让他们继续锁到第五年吗这是我的一个问题喔"},{"start":165.876,"end":194.335,"text":"那接下來我要問的是呢其實從去年我們這個新任的立法委員上任之後軍中就已經在傳說要加薪的這件事情可是一年多以來國防部到目前來說始終沒有把這個到底要加多少那講出來那或許呢部長已經有講了比如說某一些單位的加急可是到底要加多少錢到底要怎麼樣現在的基層軍人是人心惶惶因為很多人就想"},{"start":194.775,"end":204.906,"text":"他如果沒有的話我要退伍了那所以說什麼時候你們說已經送到行政院去審查但什麼時候報告才會出來才能讓我們知道行政院的方案"},{"start":206.168,"end":225.706,"text":"就我理解我跟院長有討論他就說答案就說這個應該是已經他會盡快的把它核定下來盡快是多快呢因為大家一定要盡快盡快你們有時候很快那一個月那如果你說三個月或五個月或七個月都盡快我要告訴部長的是說你們去年就已經在講說要加薪的這件事情"},{"start":230.771,"end":243.679,"text":"那已經一年了你還要告訴我盡快的話那你應該要告訴我比較具體的時間點因為很多國軍弟兄都在等這件事應該是這幾個禮拜就會合定這幾個禮拜就會合定了這幾個禮拜合定之後那如果說這個金額上面跟這個我們國軍想像的不一樣的話那我想我們還是會繼續提出這個相關的修法"},{"start":255.926,"end":269.546,"text":"跟委員報告了我們現在著重的就是說基層官兵的部分大家都著重在所以我們這個戰鬥部隊的加級因為都是連級以下的那我請問一下戰鬥部隊的加級會翻倍嗎"},{"start":270.806,"end":290.135,"text":"戰鬥部隊家裡我們有一定的調整那我想因為所以會不會翻倍因為這個我還蠻建議的委員要體諒一下我想在行政合定之前你不方便你不方便說好那沒有關係我們來第二個題目我知道我知道我知道你的困難我也不打算要逼迫你"},{"start":290.615,"end":309.945,"text":"我們來問下一個問題就是呢當時我們在海昆號這個測試的時候博港測試HAT114年的3月19日也就是這個現在那呢在不到兩週的時間4月份就要到了去年11月月底的時候我們在委員會韓居參謀長告訴我們預計4月1號開始做海上測試那請問4月1號要做海上測試了嗎"},{"start":317.148,"end":324.414,"text":"報委員是這樣時間點是應該在去年的11月25在委員會期間那我們當初講法從4月1號開始會進入SAT這個階段對那有嗎那這個階段是到9月30號不是嘛4月1號開始做海上測試這是當時你們給我們的承諾我今天要問的是兩個禮拜以後就是4月1號了我們會不會如期的在4月1號開始做海上測試"},{"start":344.429,"end":362.474,"text":"跟委員報告我這邊國防部的立場還是以安全為重所以我每個禮拜聽取他們的報告現在相關HAT的缺改的部分他們還在進行當中那我要確保這些缺改的部分我們希望是在4月那不一定要搶在4月1號"},{"start":364.754,"end":390.525,"text":"因為主要是當時我們問的時候你們就講就是4月1號我有一直在跟他們確認說有沒有承諾說4月1號他們現在就說但是我還是一句話要給我一個安全的確保當然我們都希望能夠安全那我想請問目前博港測試HAT進度到百分之幾了目前進度我今天兩個問號嘛進度到百分之幾我們缺失目前有幾項"},{"start":392.543,"end":413.616,"text":"我想這個相關的實際的這個內容的這個部分因為每次報告都是列入機敏的事項我不認為應該在這個地方可以公開的來說明好沒有問題但那我想要請問的是你們要把這個進度完成到百分之百以及缺失要玩到百分之百那你們預計需要多少的時間"},{"start":415.017,"end":426.231,"text":"我們還是規劃在四月份按照我現在的聽取他們的報告還是規劃在四月份會進入海上測試所以四月三十號以前海上測試會開始我可以這麼說嗎我現在所要求他們的應該是這樣子"},{"start":431.918,"end":450.381,"text":"我們到時候再來看再來我們可以看4月到9月海策如果說假設你們後續有在變更的話我想應該要跟人民再說明一下最後有一個題目是跟我們官兵休假權益有關的就是我們可以看一下請假的部分"},{"start":451.822,"end":463.606,"text":"工訓售價的部分呢你可以看到公務人員的有寫的很明確的法令就是公務人員如果呢他是去進修的話呢那他就是給予工價非常清楚好然後呢如果是這個勞動"},{"start":468.527,"end":480.04,"text":"如果是這個勞動相關的話呢那其實只要雇主呢跟這個員工他們有了解之後呢就是也可以給予相關的工資就是呢這是在勞動請假規則的第八條那但是呢我們會看到國軍這個部分我們看國軍"},{"start":487.729,"end":506.729,"text":"國軍的軍事官請假規則裡面的第三條第一款第一項裡面寫到軍官士官不論開缺與否因受訓疾病休養或住院期間於次年度的未落假何幾時依第一款所定日數比例折算扣除之不令補休"},{"start":507.33,"end":529.164,"text":"那舉例來說如果我現在呢有三個月時間在受訓的話我明年的未落假就需要扣掉四分之一所以部長您過去是職業律師我們可以看到勞工也好公務人員也好他們都有相關的這個規定那我想雖然軍人是一個特殊的行業可是我們也不宜讓大家太過於操勞因為為什麼像我們過去像上個會期我們增加了12倍的這個薪資輔導嘛"},{"start":533.887,"end":562.184,"text":"還有過去半一年一年來說自槍的人的數量非常多因為他們壓力很大所以我想要問的是說這個我們勞工身份跟公務人員的身份他都是去在做相關的受訓的時候甚至疾病兩者住院的時候那他是不是還要按照這個目前的請假規則裡面去折抵扣除他的未老假你覺得這樣是合理嗎"},{"start":563.704,"end":573.165,"text":"委員這個部分我現在下去以後了解一下,或者是要先說明一下"},{"start":574.169,"end":595.899,"text":"委員好 我跟委員說明一下就是說我們現在所有未到假的相關的規定都是看你服役多少年之後你有多少天的未到假那每年我們都會讓這些未到假的請休假讓他請完 因為這個要領不休假獎金或者是相關他的休假權益我們都會鼓勵所有官兵都能夠把他休完"},{"start":596.559,"end":624.415,"text":"不是嘛未落假等於說是我們一般人講的這個特休假嘛那只有國軍在扣假公務人員或勞工都沒有在扣假你懂我意思嗎所以你希望他請完但我們講的根本就不是你剛回答的這個問題啊我們講的是上面寫得很清楚嘛如果受訓的期間的話他要比例薪資扣除之然後不吝補休嘛這一條對於我們的官兵來說其實我覺得非常不公平啊"},{"start":624.895,"end":643.547,"text":"那公教人員他們都可以勞工都可以就我們軍人不行所以我希望在照顧軍人的同時是不是在這個項目上面我們可以去修正讓他們說在受訓之後你不要不是說要提供他更多的假期喔而是按比例你不要去扣除他的未落假"},{"start":645.119,"end":653.906,"text":"現在目前的規定是這個樣子那後續我們會按照委員的意見來參考看怎麼來做一個修訂我們今天還沒有提臨時提案我們下一次會做臨時提案希望你們可以回去先想一想因為公務人員跟勞工都沒有這樣子的情況"},{"start":664.173,"end":679.34,"text":"那只有我們辛苦的軍人因為受訓要被扣未落假等於是扣他的特休我覺得這是非常不合理的那所以我們幫所有的基層軍人請命希望國防部能夠同意好嗎好我回去了解一下這些相關的規定好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":673,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時54分）謝謝主席。有請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：首先看一下這張手板，這邊寫到本院民進黨黨團針對立法院第11屆第3會期第4次的報告事項，包含第39案，國民黨擬具軍人保險條例第十條和第十六條的修正案、國軍除役官兵輔導條例、軍人待遇條例第五條修正案和軍人待遇條例第六條修正草案，都要提出復議。本席想要問一下顧部長的態度，對於立法院針對軍人的部分提出法案修正，增加他們的權益，請問顧部長，您是同意還是反對？"],["顧部長立雄：就軍人待遇條例入法這一件事情，我們沒有贊成。軍人保險條例的部分，修法的方向好像是刪除他的自付額，是不是？"],["徐委員巧芯：一個是全額補助，因為他本來是35%自付，我們希望可以全額補助。另外一個，過去是綁4年，第5年才能拿到一個保險的基數。也就是說，如果你第1、2、3、4年退掉的話，本來繳的35%也會不見。就這個部分來說，很多人從軍之後，可能兩年就發現他並不適合這個工作，當他想要離職的時候就會卡關，大概有這兩個部分。"],["顧部長立雄：是不是先請資源司說明一下？"],["徐委員巧芯：好啊！"],["藍司長靜婷：委員好，我是資源司司長。軍人保險條例雖然規定5年以後才可以請領，但是5年之內所繳的，如果他提前離職，我們是有退費的規定。"],["徐委員巧芯：但是就某種程度來說，其實這樣還是綁住了嘛！因為5年之後，比方第6年、第7年、第8年，其實都能夠拿到比較好的待遇，有滿多軍人向我們反映這件事情。接下來……"],["顧部長立雄：我們是希望他們長留久用啦！"],["徐委員巧芯：是啊！"],["顧部長立雄：對於他馬上可以請領這件事情，我們並不鼓勵。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是現在的狀況有點不一樣，像去年國軍發生有人自戕的狀況，而且因為壓力甚大，有些人可能是當了軍人之後，第2年、第3年就發現不太適任，這樣我們還要讓他們繼續鎖到第5年嗎？這是我的一個問題。接下來我要問的是，其實去年立法委員上任之後，軍中就已經在傳加薪這件事情，可是這一年多來，到目前為止國防部始終沒有說明到底要加多少。","或許部長已經有說了，比如某些單位的加給，可是到底要加多少？到底要怎麼做？現在基層軍人人心惶惶，因為很多人就在想，如果沒有加薪的話，他就想要退伍了。你們說已經送到行政院審查，但是什麼時候報告才會送出來，才能讓我們知道行政院的方案？"],["顧部長立雄：就我的理解，我也和院長討論過，他的答案是會儘快核定。"],["徐委員巧芯：儘快是多快呢？大家都知道要儘快處理，但是你們所謂的很快，有可能是一個月，也有可能是3個月、5個月或7個月。"],["顧部長立雄：應該……"],["徐委員巧芯：我要告訴部長的是，你們去年就在說加薪這件事情，已經一年了，如果現在還是只能說「儘快」的話，應該要告訴我比較具體的時間點，因為很多國軍弟兄都在等這件事。"],["顧部長立雄：應該是這幾個禮拜就會核定。"],["徐委員巧芯：這幾個禮拜就會核定了？"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。這幾個禮拜核定之後，如果金額和國軍想像的不一樣，我們還是會繼續提出相關修法。"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在著重的是基層官兵的部分，因為大家都著重在這個部分。戰鬥部隊的加給，因為都是連級以下，這個部分會加的……"],["徐委員巧芯：請問一下，戰鬥部隊的加給會翻倍嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：戰鬥部隊加給，我們會做一定的調整。因為現在……"],["徐委員巧芯：所以會不會翻倍？因為這個部分我滿介意的。"],["顧部長立雄：委員也要體諒一下啦！在行政院核定之前，我不適宜幫行政院發言，這樣是逾越院長的職院權。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不方便說？好，沒有關係，我們來問第二個題目，我知道你的困難，我也不打算逼迫你，我們來問下一個問題。海鯤號泊港測試HAT是114年3月19日，現在不到兩週的時間，4月份就要到了，去年11月月底的時候在委員會，海軍參謀長告訴我們預計4月1日開始做海上測試。請問4月1日要做海上測試了嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：那個時間點應該是在去年的11月25日，是在委員會期間，我們當初的說法是從4月1日開始進入SAT這個階段。"],["徐委員巧芯：對。有嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：這個階段是到9月30日。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是嘛！4月1日開始做海上測試，這是當時你們給我們的承諾，本席今天要問的是，兩個禮拜以後就是4月1日，會不會如期在4月1日開始做海上測試？"],["顧部長立雄：國防部的立場還是以安全為重。我每個禮拜都會聽取他們的報告，現在相關HAT的缺改，他們還在進行當中，我要確保缺改的部分……"],["徐委員巧芯：當然，我同意。"],["顧部長立雄：我們希望是在4月，但不一定要搶在4月1日。"],["徐委員巧芯：主要是當時我們詢問的時候，你們說4月1日。"],["顧部長立雄：我也一直在和他們確認有沒有承諾4月1日，他們現在是這麼說的。但我還是一句話，要做到安全的確保再進入SAT的階段。"],["徐委員巧芯：當然啊！我們都希望安全。那麼我想請問，目前泊港測試HAT進度到百分之幾？本席今天有兩個問號，進度到百分之幾？目前缺失有幾項？"],["顧部長立雄：關於實際的內容，因為每次報告都是列入機敏事項，我不認為應該在這個地方公開說明。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，沒有問題。我想要請問的是，進度要完成到百分之百，以及缺失要改善到百分之百，預計需要多少時間？"],["顧部長立雄：我們還是規劃在4月份。按照我現在聽取的報告，還是規劃4月份會進入海上測試的階段。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以4月30日以前會開始海上測試，我可以這麼說嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我現在要求他們的是這樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們到時候再來看。因為4月到9月海測嘛！假設你們後續有再變更的話，應該要再向人民說明一下。最後這個題目是和官兵休假權益有關，我們看一下請假的部分。受訓公假，公務員的部分有很明確的法令，如果公務人員去進修就是給予公假，這部分非常清楚。如果是和勞工相關的，其實只要雇主和員工彼此了解之後，也可以給予相關工資，這是勞工請假規則第八條。","但是國軍的部分，國軍的軍事官請假規則第三條第一款第一項寫到，「軍官、士官不論開缺與否，因受訓、疾病休養或住院期間，於次年度慰勞假核給時，依第一款所定日數，比例折算扣除之，不另補休。」舉例來說，如果現在有3個月的時間在受訓的話，明年的慰勞假就需要扣掉四分之一。部長，您過去是執業律師，我們可以看到，不管是勞工也好，公務人員也好，他們都有相關的規定。","雖然軍人是一個特殊的行業，可是我們也不宜讓大家太過操勞，為什麼？上個會期我們增加12倍的心諮輔導，因為過去一年自戕人數非常多，他們的壓力很大。所以本席想要問的是，如果是勞工身分和公務人員身分，他們受訓的時候，甚至是疾病休養、住院的時候，是不是還要按照目前的請假規則，折抵、扣除他的慰勞假？你覺得這樣合理嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：委員，這個部分我下去以後了解一下。是不是要先說明一下？"],["劉次長沛智：委員好。向委員說明一下，我們現在所有慰勞假的相關規定，都是看你服役多少年，然後有多少天慰勞假，每年我們都會讓他們把慰勞假請完，因為這個關係到領不休假獎金，或者攸關他的休假權益，所以我們會鼓勵所有官兵都能夠把假休完。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是嘛！慰勞假等於一般人說的特休假嘛！只有國軍在扣假，公務人員或勞工都沒有扣假，你懂本席的意思嗎？你是希望他請完，但我們現在說的，根本就不是你剛剛回答的啊！上面寫的很清楚嘛！如果有受訓要比例折算扣除之，不另補休嘛！這一條對我們的官兵非常不公平，公教人員可以，勞工可以，只有軍人不行。所以本席希望在照顧軍人的同時，這個項目是不是可以修正？讓他們在受訓之後，不是要提供他更多假期喔！而是不要按比例扣除他的慰勞假。"],["劉次長沛智：現在的規定是這個樣子，後續我們會按照委員的意見參考，看看要怎麼修訂。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。我們今天沒有提臨時提案，但下一次會提案，希望你們回去可以先想一想。因為公務人員和勞工都沒有這樣的情況，只有辛苦的軍人因為受訓要被扣慰勞假，等於是扣他的特休，本席覺得這是非常不合理的，所以我們要幫所有的基層軍人請命，希望國防部能夠同意，好嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：好，我回去了解一下相關規定。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員上台質詢。鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來請李坤城委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}},{"id":"159382","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159382","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b858b91ae456b4c0df39fe1519e09d1f6fdee5d615e4ae620bb057e84e5f10c5cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"11:48:36 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謝謝主席現在還不到12點 已經在發送便當了"},{"start":32.416,"end":41.552,"text":"是不是部長因為從委員當部長瘦了瘦很多然後還是部長要靠藥"},{"start":43.072,"end":69.933,"text":"因為剛剛有蘇青委員特別講的因為蘇醫師是蘇青也是醫師嘛所以我是覺得今天部長創造很多的關鍵字延節瘦了 靠藥然後行政院是胖子行政院是胖子所以行政院的預算特別多所以要瘦身把行政院比喻成胖子這有沒有歧視問題"},{"start":71.428,"end":99.174,"text":"那胖子就一定不健康嗎瘦身之後就一定會健康嗎我沒有看到部長有積極的回應部長請你上來好不好你是不是因為瘦了精神狀況有問題但這樣的比喻真的比喻有點奇怪嘛你不覺得嗎今天如果說胖子來引誉比喻行政院的這個預算的規模然後"},{"start":100.449,"end":121.798,"text":"這種邏輯是什麼?我實在不太清楚跟立委說明然後如果行政院預算是比較多然後來營育胖子那代表是胖子的脂肪比較多把行政院預算比喻胖子的脂肪然後瘦身之後會比較健康那站在行政院議員的一個部會首長"},{"start":126.162,"end":145.252,"text":"對這事情怎麼沒有做一個積極的回應我覺得這是有問題喔大總統要打造健康台灣我跟各位比喻一下啦健康兩個字這麼簡單嗎健康不需要付出成本嗎"},{"start":146.733,"end":161.278,"text":"事實上你不要顧賺錢啦,你不要顧上班啦,你身體健康要顧好啦,都用嘴說的,這樣就健康了嗎?你可不可以跟各位說,叫那些顧健康的人去顧自己,自己身體要顧到該量工啦?"},{"start":162.29,"end":190.706,"text":"所以健康是要付出成本的嘛對不對是當你勞動部增加預算的時候比往前年度增加預算的時候我有沒有聽到你們講出為什麼你比往前年度增加這些預算那你增加這些預算是要做什麼現在部長到任如果相關預算的增加有相關的正式對勞工有利對勞工是正面的我們被刪了我們被動了我們就應該去捍衛我們就該講得清清楚楚啊"},{"start":191.892,"end":216.372,"text":"怎麼人家以綠行政的預算增加了變胖了他就必須要該瘦身這樣會比較健康怎麼沒有聽到你們去做相關的應該去捍衛去表達你們要執行的這個預算的正當性而且不應該被草率的被刪被凍啊況且說被凍一定可以解凍誰說的算"},{"start":218.402,"end":225.278,"text":"誰說的算然後要你們提出相關的追加減你們不提出那你們的回應是什麼"},{"start":226.824,"end":252.717,"text":"當然透過互議是一個行政的各部會大家一起來不需要分辨別的在各個委員會來做這樣的事情處理但是另外一個反之當你真的有相關的政事你必須要去推動的時候你當然在委員會委員會是委員會主義啊你要去捍衛啊你要講啊你如果國民黨召委願意讓我們快速的排進我當然我這個部會我先來發動啊"},{"start":254.107,"end":264.372,"text":"那蔣同委員你要不要負責?你要不要協助?你要不要處理?你要不要回到你們黨團?確定之後你才在這個委員會講說你們為什麼不送來?但我沒聽到你們幾天回應這個事情啊我沒聽到你們講這個慷慨啊我會覺得我們在地方聽到很多人民百姓看到預算被刪的如此的離譜"},{"start":283.117,"end":298.786,"text":"看到昨天監察院的副院長以前親民黨重要的份子李鴻鈞副座都已經出來講了連監察院都已經動彈不得了甚至很多監察人員都必須從口袋掏錢出來才有辦法應付一般的相關事務啊都要出來講話啊都要遇到啊立法院是一個定制度的地方啊"},{"start":309.929,"end":316.293,"text":"但是一直在破壞制度這國家怎麼會正常立法院不正常 台灣怎麼會正常那我希望官員要正常一點吧官員要如何正常新北市在勞動部勞發署發生了霸凌的時候新北市的勞動局跑來勞發署要勞檢可以嗎可以嗎"},{"start":336.721,"end":349.068,"text":"老幫手怎麼回應老幫手怎麼處理昨天台北市的勞動局跑來立法院勞檢某個委員的辦公室可以嗎當然有霸凌的事件當然有什麼樣奇怪的事件我覺得我樂觀其成但是勞檢完之後"},{"start":360.612,"end":375.326,"text":"他到底要對誰做出相關的這些處分是針對立法院還是針對那個委員因為立法院的錢這個助理的薪資是從立法院撥下去的不然這兩件事情你簡單對我做一個回應好不好好 第一個事情是"},{"start":385.598,"end":400.875,"text":"那個我們沒有辦法接受把行政院預算的增加形容成胖子行政院為什麼他的預算的增加是因為這幾年我們的經濟成長包括稅收的增加也包括我們想要做的事情增加"},{"start":401.556,"end":421.345,"text":"包括剛才在講到的健康台灣或者是想要照顧的人民相關的權益增加我們也覺得現在是有財政餘力來做這件事情才增加並不是只要增加就會形容成胖子就該瘦身沒有這件事情因為現在很多地方政府其實他們的預算也是增加的但並不會因為說你只要預算增加就一定必須被砍這個在剛剛的時候其實我有說"},{"start":425.39,"end":439.219,"text":"這個預算的審查最重要的事情其實是要看科目你的三檢跟監督到底有沒有道理不是只要這個預算增加就必須要看我想這部分沒有辦法接受這是第一點第二點是關於剛剛委員說剛剛委員提到說這個相關的勞檢單位我們剛剛其實有說明"},{"start":446.763,"end":461.368,"text":"我認為其實應該要在兼顧這個我們勞檢要執行的精神跟尊重立法院的這兩個目的之下我們願意來跟立法院討論這些相關的機制包括假設如果要做檢查的機制的話該怎麼進行"},{"start":463.308,"end":489.536,"text":"前面那段剛剛部長也有答覆我也有在主持我有聽到但是我還是覺得力道跟強度部長應該可以再加強這第一點那第二點我特別剛剛會引譽當時的新北市勞動局對勞發署發動這個勞檢然後昨天又有這個台北市的勞工局來對立院的這個國會辦公室來做勞檢基本上我們也在反對但是權責勒權責勒"},{"start":493.309,"end":505.463,"text":"我要強調的是全職就像2016年2016年在立法院就發生讓議事人員不斷電的情況之下有過勞送醫的案例北市勞動局當時就到我們立法院來要做勞遣"},{"start":506.328,"end":525.936,"text":"但是另外一個意思就是說不適合啊不適用勞基華嘛對不對好今天才七天假啦我又有聽到部長的講的一段話畢竟你是行政院的議員所以當然主管機關是在內政部那你朝向可以正向的來做討論嘛這很好我們勞工有職安法"},{"start":526.656,"end":538.579,"text":"那工人員有什麼話2012年發生了一次我們在今年1月21號又發生了一次從凌晨5點24分的畫面各位可以看一下1月20號開會這全部都是工人員我們未還我們未還這一組又是最後的一定要等到5點應該是可能12點就要stand by了可能進早然後等到5點24分他們才可以"},{"start":553.752,"end":578.172,"text":"等個議會時間ending完之後他們才可以離開然後離開完之後這已經足足幾個小時你可以看的齁足足從1月23號的10點開會到1月5點40分休息然後1月21號的1點又馬上開會這個中間沒有包含打卡沒有包含休息沒有包含事後的相關資料的準備事前的資料準備然後又馬上接續開會我覺得我覺得"},{"start":582.694,"end":606.767,"text":"我要請部長,因為我們職安法算是完善,但是公務人員他可能是什麼法律來做規範?就是這個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法,簡稱安慰法,我們簡稱職安法。安慰辦法。對,但我們是法律嘛,他們是辦法。奇怪,對公務人員怎麼用這樣在處理?部長你有什麼看法?"},{"start":608.737,"end":631.506,"text":"現在確實是大家會有一些討論說公務員要不要適用治安法的問題在這個議題上面我們幾次的也跟考試院這邊去做確認確實現在考試院還是希望是來修訂他們的公務員保障法還有安慰辦法來去做公務員相關權益的保障"},{"start":631.946,"end":655.451,"text":"目前他們還是是希望用他們的這些法制的體系來去保障那就勞動部的角度來說所以也是在這狀況之下但我們現在主要責任法的修訂包括職場霸凌的專章還是真的一般職場的勞工但是這段這幾個月的時間我們也持續的跟考試院這邊在做意見的交換尤其是一些針對辦"},{"start":656.291,"end":669.65,"text":"包括霸凌認定啊包括霸凌相關機制處理我們也跟他們持續在討論之中可是目前他們確實還是認為公務員有一套公務員自己的法規的體系所以他們還是修保障法跟安慰辦法"},{"start":670.765,"end":695.941,"text":"我這邊有一個資料給部長做參考我是期待說就部長以處理七天假的角度看怎麼來協助這個事情保訓院現在在研裏要將安二法提升為法的位階做得到做不到還是一件事情但是他們目前研裏的方向是未來的上級單位每年至少一次對下級進行職業安全衛生檢查我想站在你們的專業你覺得這樣有嚇阻作用嗎要對立法院"},{"start":698.899,"end":726.626,"text":"然後找哪個上級來對這個立法院來做檢查他們可能指的比較不是立法院他們指的應該是政府各個機關或機構啦尤其是有上級機關的機關或機構我現在就比喻立法院開會這種情況在這種樣態的情況之下要怎麼處理說實話這部分當然我們還是要去跟考試院來做來做這部分要跟考試院做討論啦但是確實在立法院裡面其實並不是都是公務員"},{"start":728.24,"end":752.151,"text":"就是立法院裡面其實也有是有些是一般的勞工是沒有錯沒有錯但是多數是公務員是對不對對按比例來講嘛對啊那我說因為現在考試院在修訂公園保障法跟安慰辦法過程其實他們有找我們跟他們持續的討論因為在職安衛的專業上面確實是在我們職安署這邊是有過去比較多這樣子的專業所以我們提供這樣的專業給他們去做參考"},{"start":754.931,"end":769.84,"text":"這個是請部長來協助另外可能要請部長趕快來做相關的因應我們自己的這個勞警員有1033位的編制對不對但到目前為止好像一直空缺100多位就是一至兩成都沒辦法補足"},{"start":771.76,"end":791.912,"text":"這是主要什麼原因?就是我們現在安全衛生背景理工的同仁比較容易離職那在離職部分當然產業科技的發展確實需要比較高科技的人或是有專業的人所以我們一直希望說能夠讓檢查員能夠支持久任留用所以我們部長也特別支持我們目前希望從"},{"start":793.433,"end":809.5,"text":"改善我們的檢查方式用科技的方式來做監督檢查跟我們的同仁久任的部分可以鼓勵從不同面向來做展開啦跟他們生鮮汁及那個植奶的發展受限有沒有關係跟委員報告確實我們這一群大概一千多人所以"},{"start":810.68,"end":824.805,"text":"就是從地方檢察機構檢察員科長到檢察機構的處長到治安署可能組長副署長到組長我們在這個圈子就是這樣子所以民間的科技廠哇我們去當安全管理師管理員就非常機會就非常大但是我還認為說我們這是對"},{"start":827.646,"end":842.727,"text":"對企業有幫助對事業有幫助的一個工作我們是期待說不管是成就上或者說是生意上我們再做更多的有沒有很大的改善空間嘛好比說爭取為正式的能源編制還是怎樣去改善這樣的一個環境"},{"start":843.308,"end":871.533,"text":"跟劉仁說我們其實也有希望盡量來跟人中來爭取高高人人的編制但是現在在我上任之後其實我們也提出一個勞檢人專業能力以及工作支持的提升方案那希望透過更多的智慧化或者是增加大家專業化的方式來支撐勞檢人讓勞檢人就以他的這個工作為榮那之前其實我們也爭取到其實每個月有5000塊或3000塊的這個風險的加急工作的加急那"},{"start":872.473,"end":896.813,"text":"沒有錯 現在勞警員的留任或我們要想辦法留住他們的專業這部分還是有待改善的空間這也是為什麼我們要提出這些勞警員的支持方案因為我到部裡面發現其實勞警員其實要面對很多事業單位的壓力其實這也是他們為什麼其實常常容易想要離職或者想要轉職一個很重要的原因所以我們怎麼樣給他們尊嚴跟包括在專業上面去全力的支持他們這是我們非常重視的事情"},{"start":897.216,"end":911.993,"text":"我要特別提到這個勞檢人員並非是正式的公務人員他在勞檢的場域過程裡面在執行相關的業務有視瓦性的問題"},{"start":914.309,"end":926.319,"text":"好來請署長報告其實我們有大部分的檢討員是高考特考分發那你講的聘用的部分大概是我們勞動條件檢查人大概有325個所以我們聘用條例聘用了但聘用的部分也是經過我們"},{"start":928.359,"end":947.547,"text":"訓練考核跟年度的考機的審核所以他們工作表現我們做比較上位一些了解所以我們當然希望JP的聘用檢查員他有聘用檢查員升到聘用視察的聘用專業的聘用視察我們連那個他升升現在這系列我們考慮到了所以我們現在反而是聘用檢查員的流動率沒有相對的"},{"start":948.467,"end":962.912,"text":"高太多但是專業的部分有能力的人一定會挖走這個其實是我們公務機關不是只有這個演藍園的這個會有這樣的情況其實很多公務機關專業人士很容易被民間挖走這是看起來是這整體面向的問題啦所以"},{"start":965.093,"end":981.839,"text":"但是我要跟委員說當然民間或者是產業都會有這樣人力的需求但我們部裡面還是會全力做的是把勞檢員的待遇包括專業跟支持提升我覺得這還是不管外界的吸力有多大但這部分我們還是會全力來做"},{"start":982.399,"end":1007.147,"text":"所以像任總繼續爭取嘛然後他的升遷然後他的發展我想這個應該還是要請部長跟署長多費一點心思來看怎麼處理好不好是不是可以一個月內給我們一個你們要整體的這樣的改善提升的計畫把這些人可以好好的留住保衛起作用計畫給我們做參考好謝謝好謝謝主席好謝謝下一位我們請陳培宇委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":990,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時49分）謝謝主席。現在還不到12點，已經在發送便當了，部長是不是因為從委員當了部長就瘦了？"],["主席（林委員淑芬代）：瘦很多。"],["劉委員建國：瘦很多，還是部長要靠藥？因為剛剛蘇清泉委員有……"],["主席：這個不能亂講。"],["劉委員建國：剛剛蘇清泉委員特別講的。"],["主席：這樣講不妥。"],["劉委員建國：因為蘇清泉也是醫師嘛！我是覺得今天部長創造很多的關鍵字連結，「瘦了」、「靠藥」，然後行政院是胖子。"],["主席：「靠腰」還是「靠藥」？"],["劉委員建國：行政院是胖子，因為行政院的預算特別多，所以要瘦身，把行政院比喻成胖子，這有沒有歧視問題？胖子就一定不健康嗎？瘦身之後就一定會健康嗎？我沒有看到部長有積極地回應欸！部長，請你上來好不好？"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["劉委員建國：你是不是因為瘦了，精神狀況有問題？不然這樣的比喻有一點奇怪嘛！你不覺得嗎？今天如果說用胖子來引喻、比喻成行政院的預算規模，這種邏輯是什麼？我實在不太清楚。"],["洪部長申翰：跟劉委員說明……"],["劉委員建國：如果行政院預算比較多，然後來引喻胖子，代表胖子的脂肪比較多，把行政院的預算比喻成胖子的脂肪，然後瘦身之後會比較健康，站在行政院的一員、一個部會首長，對這件事情怎麼沒有積極的回應？我覺得這有問題哦！"],["洪部長申翰：劉委員，第一個，我也沒辦法接受……"],["劉委員建國：賴總統要打造健康台灣，我跟各位比喻一下啦！「健康」兩個字這麼簡單嗎？健康不需要付出成本嗎？就像長輩如果告訴晚輩，你不要顧著賺錢，你不要顧著上班，你的身體健康要顧好，都用嘴巴講，這樣就會健康了嗎？你知道叫人家要顧健康的人，結果自己的身體都顧得滿「兩光」的，所以健康是要付出成本的嘛！對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：當勞動部增加預算，比往前年度增加預算的時候，我也沒有聽到你們講出為什麼你比往前年度增加這些預算，你增加這些預算是要做什麼？新的部長到任，如果有相關預算的增加，有相關的政事對勞工有利、對勞工是正面的，那麼對於預算被刪的、被凍的，我們就應該去捍衛，我們就應該講得清清楚楚啊！人家引喻行政院的預算增加了、變胖了，它就必須要瘦身，這樣會比較健康，怎麼沒有聽到你們去做相關的捍衛，去表達你們要執行預算的正當性？而且不應該草率地被刪、被凍啊！況且說被凍一定可以解凍，誰說的算？誰說的算？然後要你們提出相關的追加減，你們不提出，那你們的回應是什麼？","當然透過覆議是行政院各部會大家一起來，不需要分門別類地在各個委員會來處理這樣的事情，但是反之，當你真正有相關的政事必須要去推動的時候，你當然在委員會，委員會是委員會主義啊！你要去捍衛啊！你要講啊！如果國民黨召委願意讓我們快速地排進，當然我這一個部會我先來發動啊！那講的委員你要不要負責？你要不要協助？你要不要處理？你要不要回到你們黨團確定之後，你才在這個委員會講說你們為什麼不送來？但是我沒有聽到你們回應這些事情啊！我沒聽到你們說這些工作啊！","我覺得我們在地方聽到很多人民百姓，他們看到預算被刪得如此離譜，看到昨天監察院的副院長，以前親民黨的重要分子李鴻鈞副座都已經出來講了，連監察院都已經動彈不得，甚至很多監察委員都必須從口袋掏錢出來才有辦法應付一般的相關事務，都出來說話了，都遇到了。","立法院是一個定制度的地方，但是一直在破壞制度，這個國家怎麼會正常？立法院不正常，臺灣怎麼會正常？我希望官員要正常一點吧！官員要如何正常？新北市在勞動部勞發署發生霸凌的時候，新北市的勞動局跑來勞發署要勞檢，可以嗎？可以嗎？勞發署怎麼回應？勞發署怎麼處理？昨天臺北市的勞動局跑來立法院勞檢某個委員的辦公室，可以嗎？當然，有霸凌的事件、有什麼樣奇怪的事件，勞檢我樂觀其成，但是勞檢完之後，它到底要對誰做出相關的處分？是針對立法院，還是針對那個委員？因為是立法院的錢，同仁助理的薪資是從立法院撥下去的。部長，這兩件事情你簡單對我回應好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好。第一件事情，委員，我們沒有辦法接受把行政院預算的增加形容成胖子，為什麼行政院的預算增加？是因為這幾年我們的經濟成長，包括稅收的增加，也包括我們想要做的事情增加，包括剛剛講到的健康台灣，或者是想要照顧的人民相關的權益增加。我們也覺得現在是有財政餘裕來做這件事情才增加，並不是只要增加就被形容成胖子就該瘦身，沒有這件事情，因為現在很多地方政府的預算也是增加的，並不會說你只要預算增加就一定必須被砍。我剛剛有說，預算審查最重要的事情其實是要看科目，你的刪減跟監督到底有沒有道理，不是只要預算增加就必須要砍，我想這部分我沒有辦法接受，這是第一點。","第二點是關於剛才委員提到相關的勞檢單位，我們剛剛其實有說明，我認為應該在兼顧我們勞檢要執行的精神跟尊重立法院這兩個目的之下，我們願意跟立法院討論相關的機制，包括如果要做檢查機制的話該怎麼進行。"],["劉委員建國：前面那一段剛剛部長有答復，因為我在主持，我有聽到，但是我還是覺得力道跟強度部長應該可以再加強，這是第一點。","第二點，我剛剛特別引喻當時的新北市勞動局對勞發署發動勞檢，然後昨天又有臺北市的勞動局來對立院的國會辦公室做勞檢，基本上我們一直在反對，但是權責咧？權責咧？我要強調的是權責，就像2016年，2016年在立法院就發生讓議事人員在不斷電的情況之下過勞送醫的案例，北市勞動局當時就到我們立法院來做勞檢，可是立法院議事人員不適用勞基法嘛！對不對？","好，現在在講7天假，我又有聽到部長講的一段話，畢竟你是行政院的一員，當然主管機關是在內政部，那你朝向可以正向地討論嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["劉委員建國：講得很好，我們勞工有職安法，公務人員有什麼法？2016年發生一次，我們在今年1月21日又發生一次，這是凌晨5點24分的畫面，各位可以看一下，從1月20日開會，這些全部都是公務人員，我們衛環這一組又是最後的，一定要等到5點，可能是12點就要stand by了，可能要儘早嘛！然後等到5點24分，他們要等議會時間ending完之後才可以離開，然後離開完之後，這已經足足幾個小時，你可以看啦！從1月20日的10點開會，到1月21日5點44分休息，然後1月21日下午1點又馬上開會，這中間沒有包含打卡，沒有包含休息，也沒有包含事後的相關資料準備、事前的資料準備，然後又馬上接續開會。","我要請部長，我們職安法算完善，但是公務人員可能是依照什麼法律作為規範？就是這一個公務人員安全及衛生防護辦法，簡稱安衛辦法，我們是簡稱職安法嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：安衛辦法。"],["劉委員建國：對，但我們是法律嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們是職安法。"],["劉委員建國：他們是辦法，奇怪咧！對公務人員怎麼是用這樣在處理？部長，你有什麼看法？"],["洪部長申翰：現在確實大家會有一些討論，說公務員要不要適用職安法的問題。在這個議題上面，我們也幾次跟考試院確認，現在考試院還是希望修訂他們的公務人員保障法及安衛辦法，去做公務員相關權益的保障，目前他們還是希望用他們這些法制的體系去保障。","就勞動部的角度來說，也是在這個狀況之下，當然我們現在主要職安法的修訂，包括職場霸凌的專章，還是針對一般職場的勞工，但是這幾個月的時間我們也持續跟考試院做意見的交換，包括霸凌認定、霸凌相關機制處理，我們也跟他們持續在討論之中，可是目前他們確實還是認為公務員有一套公務員自己的法規體系，所以他們還是修保障法及安衛辦法。"],["劉委員建國：我這邊有一個資料給部長參考，我是期待部長以處理7天假的角度，看怎麼來協助這件事情啦！保訓會現在在研議，要將安衛辦法提升為法的位階，做得到做不到還是一件事情，但是他們目前研擬的方向是，未來的上級單位每年至少一次對下級進行職業安全衛生檢查，站在你們的專業，你覺得這樣有嚇阻作用嗎？對於立法院，要找哪一個上級對立法院檢查？"],["洪部長申翰：他們可能指的比較不是立法院，他們指的應該是政府各個機關或機構。"],["劉委員建國：對，我現在就比喻嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：尤其是有上級機關的機關或機構。"],["劉委員建國：我現在就比喻像立法院開會這種情況，在這種樣態的情況之下，要怎麼處理？"],["洪部長申翰：說實話，這部分當然我們還是要去跟考試院討論，但是確實在立法院裡面，其實並不都是公務員，立法院裡面也有些是一般的勞工。"],["劉委員建國：是，沒有錯，但是多數是公務員，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：是，對。"],["劉委員建國：按比例來講嘛！對啊！"],["洪部長申翰：現在考試院在修訂公務人員保障法跟安衛辦法的過程，其實他們也有找我們持續討論，因為在職安衛的專業上面，確實我們職安署過去有比較多這樣子的專業，所以我們也提供這樣的專業給他們參考。"],["劉委員建國：這件事請部長協助。","另外，可能要請部長趕快做相關的因應，我們自己的勞檢員有1,033位的編制嘛！對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["劉委員建國：但到目前為止，好像一直空缺一百多位，就是一至兩成都沒有辦法補足，主要是什麼原因？簡單就好，時間到了。"],["鄒署長子廉：我們現在安全衛生背景的理工同仁比較容易離職，在離職的部分，當然產業科技的發展確實需要比較高科技的人或是有專業的人，所以我們一直希望讓檢查員能夠久任留用，部長也特別支持我們。目前希望從改善我們的檢查方式，用科技的方式做監督檢查，以及在同仁久任的部分可以給予鼓勵，從不同面向展開。"],["劉委員建國：與他們的升遷及職涯的發展受限有沒有關係？"],["鄒署長子廉：確實，我們這一群大概一千多人，從地方檢查機構的檢查員、科長到檢查機構的處長，到職安署可能組長、副署長到署長，我們在這個圈子裡面就是這樣，所以民間的科技廠挖我們去當安全管理師、管理員的機會就非常大，但是我還是認為我們這個是對企業有幫助、對事業有幫助的一個工作，我們期待不管是成就上或者是升遷上，我們再做更多的爭取……"],["劉委員建國：署長，有沒有很大的改善空間？好比說爭取為正式的人員編制，還是怎樣去改善這樣的環境？"],["洪部長申翰：跟劉委員說明，我們也希望儘量向人總來爭取，包括人員的編制。現在在我上任之後，其實我們也提出一個勞檢員專業能力以及工作支持的提升方案，希望透過更多的智慧化，或者是增加大家專業化的方式來支撐勞檢員，讓勞檢員以他的工作為榮。之前其實我們也爭取到每個月有5,000塊或3,000塊的風險加給，工作的加給。","沒有錯，現在勞檢員的留任或我們怎樣想辦法留住他們的專業，這部分還是有待改善的空間，這也是為什麼我們要提出這些勞檢員的支持方案，因為我到部裡面發現，其實勞檢員要面對很多事業單位的壓力，這也是他們為什麼常常容易想要離職或者想要轉職一個很重要的原因，所以我們怎麼樣給他們尊嚴，包括在專業上面全力地去支持他們，這是我們非常重視的事情。"],["劉委員建國：我要特別提到，這一個勞檢人員並非是正式的公務人員。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["劉委員建國：好，他在勞檢的場域、過程裡面，在執行相關的業務，有適法性的問題。來，請署長解釋，請說。"],["鄒署長子廉：其實我們大部分的檢查員是高考、特考分發，至於您講的聘用部分，我們勞動條件檢查員大概有325個，是由我們聘用人員條例聘用的，但是聘用的部分也是經過訓練、考核跟年度考績的審核，所以他們的工作表現我們會做比較上位的一些瞭解。","我們當然希望這一批聘用檢查員由聘用檢查員升到聘用專員，再到聘用視察，我們連他升遷的序列也考慮到了，所以現在反而是聘用檢查員的流動率沒有相對高太多。但是專業的部分，有能力的人一定被挖走，其實我們公務機關不是只有檢查員會有這樣的情況，很多公務機關的專業人士很容易被民間挖走，這個看起來是整體面向的問題啦！"],["劉委員建國：所以……"],["洪部長申翰：但是我要跟委員說，當然民間或者是產業都會有這樣的人力需求，不過我們部裡面還是會全力做的是，把勞檢員的待遇，包括專業跟支持提升，不管外界的吸力有多大，這部分我們還是會全力來做。"],["劉委員建國：所以向人總繼續爭取嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：當然。"],["劉委員建國：然後他的升遷，還有職涯的發展，我想這個還是要請部長跟署長多費一點心思來看怎麼處理，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：是，好。"],["劉委員建國：是不是可以一個月內給我們一個整體改善提升的計畫？把這些人好好地留住，發揮其作用。"],["洪部長申翰：沒問題。"],["劉委員建國：那個計畫給我們參考。"],["洪部長申翰：沒問題，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","下一位請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席 那有請顧部長 謝謝好 我們請顧部長是 省委部長好 那這個辛苦了 那這個呢 這一個我們這兩天 這一個我們的質詢的時間可能有時候會拉得比較長民眾黨的委員這一個問的問題 問的時間通常都會比本委都還要來得更久我不知道為什麼"},{"start":27.884,"end":56.436,"text":"那我現在想問一下因為剛剛地域委員其實也有提到就是這一個游訓轉戰這一個部分那因為這一次在三月我記得是在對三月的時候新聞有講到這個立即備戰操演那立即備戰操演當然看起來可能跟漢光演習有一些應對那我這次看到夜報裡面有特別提到這個海底電纜的問題那因為前面呢我看到這個部長有提到說這個低中高強度的分級研判灰色地帶那我想問一下就是說因為"},{"start":57.516,"end":76.304,"text":"國人現在對於灰色地帶的這個定義當然並不是那麼的清楚然後呢現在大家又很關心海底電纜那我知道海底電纜哥大概也不會進入到第一這一個部分的一個分級那現在關於這些不管是分級啦灰色地帶的一個解釋啦國防部有沒有一個比較精簡的說法可以跟國人講一下"},{"start":79.121,"end":81.402,"text":"我們認為中共會以隱蔽性的方式來掩蓋它真正的企圖這是我們現在的判斷"},{"start":93.63,"end":108.192,"text":"所以我們會現在就各項的這個這個漢光的部分我們一開始就是灰色地帶的映出因為我們認為灰色地帶的映出來導致最後有可能轉成全面作戰的這個階段"},{"start":109.574,"end":130.808,"text":"那灰色地帶的這個硬處我們就必須要有充分的這個掌握判斷它的徵喉判斷它的威脅程度然後我們現在已經有一個低中高強度的一個關鍵預警徵喉的一個判斷表然後根據這些判斷我們來研判那所以我們今天"},{"start":132.378,"end":149.055,"text":"講坦白一點就是說他一直說他在訓練或者他一直說他在演習可是他也許隱藏著他真正的企圖烏俄戰爭就是一個明顯的例子所以我們這個的時候要提高我們的立即備戰的一個所以我們要操演"},{"start":149.696,"end":174.646,"text":"那我們也要它是它低中高強度我們可能就是說那到了某個強度我們就升級為二級加強戒備那我們到某個強度我們升為一級加強戒備那這個時候是在我們軍中本身依照我們的常備部隊我們就做立即這樣的應對以防以防它掩飾它的真正企圖以後讓我們觸然不及反應這是我們現在"},{"start":176.873,"end":186.461,"text":"國軍要面對這樣子的一種很隱蔽的這樣的一個可能的然後隱藏他的真正企圖說應該要要立即的快速的應對的一個"},{"start":189.004,"end":216.133,"text":"我們認為應該要做的事情謝謝部長因為我覺得這個是有必要跟國人解釋那剛剛下一頁這邊的部分本來就想說請國防部講一下這整個預期的效益那我相信剛剛的講法應該對國人來講算是很清楚那但是有一個小的點就是說我們在去年的時候其實也很強調這些官兵的權益等等之類的那我不知道這一次因為這一次的這個操演那不知道這一個有沒有相關的一些補駕什麼等等的措施呢補駕"},{"start":219.414,"end":247.564,"text":"有 我們立即備戰操演就休假的這個部分我們當然會有一定的兵力要求那事後應該會進行相關的補加有關剛剛補充報告 我是作業室次長那有關官兵的休假權益我們這次演習的目的主要是能夠強化立即備戰部署那因此它是依據演習狀況來提升並沒有全面性的管制休假"},{"start":248.185,"end":259.203,"text":"那另外官兵如果有特殊的事故他可以依照我們請休假的規範像所屬單位長官提出請休假核准之後還是一樣依照他的室友來去實施請休假"},{"start":260.739,"end":279.719,"text":"因為從現在開始就是說一些演訓等等之類的那我知道最近也在做一些驗收那我那一天有去這一個相關的地方然後去看這個驗收的這個狀況那我在驗收狀況的時候呢我在聽這一個海軍在講的時候他們也有提到說因為現在要驗的數量也多然後常常會有加班的情形"},{"start":280.679,"end":309.016,"text":"所以呢就是說就這方面而言不只是這一次這個相關的這個為期五天的這個演訓還包含在驗收的團隊等等之類的因為我們現在對無人機的需求真的是增加那所以呢我們要驗收的人不一定有那麼多那個團隊其實會常常加班所以相關的這個權益啊有沒有過勞的情形啊什麼再拜託就多請注意啦拜託多請注意是我們有聽到一些反應那我想我們會注意是"},{"start":310.356,"end":329.508,"text":"那這個上次我是看到副部長在這個視察的時候有提到這幾個什麼名利、信用、資通、金融、社福、醫療、資源、CI跟物資配送這五個面向有幾個地方是因為過去有質詢過我想追一下一個就是關於這個第一個這個名利、信用的部分無人機的這個非操守目前的這個訓練我放一下這個"},{"start":331.969,"end":351.028,"text":"下一個這一個我問兩個事情第一個是非操守是這一個另外一個是空域跟時段的管理因為目前來講五輪機的這個測試變得多那問題是需要跟民航局協調那現在能夠用使用的空域又少那現在針對這件事情目前應對因為這個之前有問過那目前這個應對的方案是什麼"},{"start":355.896,"end":380.833,"text":"確實我們現在在入境的五輪級飛行訓練中心的應該是在三軍聯測基地南側中心事實上空域還是不夠所以現在應該是在應該要在跟委員報告另外在營區上空400尺以下這個我們平常的例行的訓練那這個是不需要跟民航局申請"},{"start":386.837,"end":407.365,"text":"委員好 我是秦次事次長我們前一個職務在空作部擔任副責任官的時候也針對無人機的空域管理的這個部分跟民航局做過協調那這個部分剛剛如同陸軍參謀長所講400尺以下這個部分是在民航局的無人機"},{"start":409.526,"end":435.934,"text":"專章裡面它有綠定的那在特定的區域裡面這樣子的這個操作是許可那超越這個區域的話也有一定的這個管理程序那這個在這個108年的時候我們國防部也另頒了這個管理的作業程序那現在定期工作部呢會依照這個各使用操作單位的需求跟民防局定期來開會針對他們新增的需求來做研討以上好"},{"start":437.515,"end":454.536,"text":"謝謝 因為剩一點時間 我就再問一下這個上次我們有在辦公室討論過了 這個我就不多問就是針對國防期值的部分 軍省今天非常多人問所以我覺得我不要去重複一些前面的問題不然就是一樣的問題一直重複 我相信部長也很累"},{"start":455.197,"end":475.518,"text":"那大家都有提到一些共犯或什麼等等的問題我比較想問的反而是因為過去軍法官他在隸屬在國防部之下被遭受到質疑嘛那現在我記得部長有提到就是說不管是之後要人審會啊仿照法官法啊什麼等等之類的會確保他的獨立性那剛剛部長有提到多元這件事情"},{"start":476.158,"end":495.155,"text":"我想問一下就是說目前來講如果說從多元來禁用這件事情目前的規劃到底是什麼因為我覺得多元這件事情大概會跟獨立性會息息相關就是有可能是律師然後轉任那有可能我們現在有辦的法務官考試我們會從中選拔優秀人才"},{"start":495.755,"end":510.681,"text":"那另外當然也不排除由居法官考試那但是考試完之後我們還是也來選來由人審會來把握所以透過這樣子一個多元的一個甄選的一個程序"},{"start":511.301,"end":531.393,"text":"主要是讓這個,讓他們都,我們現在想的是說他們還要進入部隊去進行這個對食物的理解,那所以讓他一方面就是說養成讓他對法律的專業之外,然後對部隊管理的食物也有一定的認知,那這樣的話"},{"start":532.473,"end":553.875,"text":"在這個軍事審判上面應該會更視切然後能夠比較的來合於我們對於這個軍人在職務上他應該有的作為的一個認知這樣子好 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審慎樂觀的看待這整個狀況目前還是審慎樂觀 但是我們還是要非常非常的小心因為政策 這個是一個很敏感的時候尤其是四月份 五月份會是一個我們很重要的觀察期四月份 五月份四月份會是一個很重要的觀察期因為四月份他會提出他們對於各國關稅的一個狀態"},{"start":145.236,"end":169.001,"text":"那當然他有講到是說投資的多關稅就會少但是我們還得看一下是就等於是川普政府他在於關稅上面他最後的政策對我們還是得看他最後的政策因為他跟各國談判的結果就處理了所以影響到整個景氣的方向因為我們難以預測現在各國都難以預測啦所以我們才會我會用兩個非常小心就是我們的確是非常在意這件事情"},{"start":169.781,"end":183.8,"text":"那另外今年的經濟成長率大概各機關都評估3%以上主委應該也是樂觀的看待3%以上因為目前有些是訂單的狀態的確我想魏哲嘉先生在跟總統的記者會上也講他訂單滿到"},{"start":185.402,"end":203.468,"text":"不能再滿,那的確也因為這樣還有新廠需求可以已經到這個程度那這個整體的發展看起來AI的變化還是持續往上走這個需求的變化還是很明確那今年的可能的這些的像川普的現象還有包括台灣內部的一些政治紛爭會不會影響到台灣經濟生產率的這個影響"},{"start":207.526,"end":228.481,"text":"有些會影響啦有些我舉個例子好了我們政府投資會有縮減的現象那大概會有0.08%你講的就是說我們被大量的刪減跟大量凍結這些狀況嗎對包括我們前瞻預算並沒有審核嘛那這個都會造成這個會影響到多少的經濟成長率大概0.08%它會有一點0.08%的影響那如果解凍不順利的話呢"},{"start":234.705,"end":256.076,"text":"解凍不順利我們可能要再算現在算的是解凍順利在上半年解凍是刪除的部分那另外就是0.08是刪除的部分另外還有一個就是川普上來之後全球在看他的政策都是會認為對GDP會有傷害就是傷害的大與小大概大家都有一個高中低的劇本那"},{"start":257.352,"end":282.545,"text":"的確GDP會有一點影響但是我們已經考慮了這幾個因素進來我們唯一沒有考慮到的是前瞻預算跟現有預算的三減的部分但是川普的部分我們在去年估的時候有估進來了所以還是要努力的守住3%以上對 我們會去努力守住好 那我再請教一下這個對於我們的我看到國發會有些也被刪包括被刪了2.2億甚至被動了30% 3.1億左右"},{"start":285.947,"end":313.822,"text":"這個對於我們的亞系計畫人才的計畫跟資安的計畫會不會產生影響這個預算三減多少會有影響那有幾個部分會影響比較大的還是第一個就是資訊的部分那個會影響到我們對資安跟政府公報那這個是影響比較大雖然金額金額是一千萬但是影響是比較大一點就是我們等於行政院公報會資安的部分行政院跟各單位跟包括團體"},{"start":315.262,"end":331.131,"text":"200多個單位的溝通會有一點目前是稍微是有影響這個對我們影響是比較大所以雖然看起來他是1000萬可能他影響會超過5400萬的地方那另外就是各單位的電費其實我們在去年提出預算的時候沒有考慮到10月的"},{"start":332.051,"end":344.965,"text":"10月份再漲價之後呢其實再減15%統三下來其實就我了解不只我們各部會大概電費都會出現很大的挑戰好 因為10月份我趕快進到下一個了那5400億400萬這塊也是影響比較大對我們這個產業發展"},{"start":350.892,"end":371.763,"text":"主委一起努力啦我們來努力來改變這個那接下來是因為時間很有限那個亞洲資產管理中心這個是總統的政見這個也大力在推動當中那高雄已經有成立了第一個金融專區主委有在協助跟掌握吧有的有的有的我們目前有16家業者已經簽了MOU跟政府這16家都會進駐嗎"},{"start":372.864,"end":381.572,"text":"他們都是表達高度的意願那同時我們現在在開放很多的銀行申請私人銀行業務那我們希望能擴大這個這個亞洲資產中心的"},{"start":384.605,"end":412.684,"text":"的一些量能對因為第一個點是在高雄來做轉區的對那雅灣4月份開始進駐那7月份要正式來起動了嘛謝謝委員幫忙沒有這個這要全力來出力那現在的部分它的範圍會不只在幾棟建築嘛我看了現在最新的規劃會在周邊的雅灣周邊都會做一些的區域都會做整個它會逐步擴大啦我們一開始先以操作為主OBU的操作那慢慢會再擴大業務量業務範圍"},{"start":415.665,"end":432.352,"text":"好那除了16家銀行以外我看有些的我們的公股的部分像其他的像台銀、土銀這些未來會有機會來加入嗎因為我們現在就我了解來申請這個私人銀行業務的銀行是有增加的趨勢那這些都有可能會應該都會下去"},{"start":434.413,"end":455.191,"text":"對我希望這不是只有金管會的事啦我希望也不是只有在我希望國發會用國家的整體高度這也是總統的政見所以這件事情也一定要成功的啦那特別是在現在的不管是國內資金或國際的一些資金我們希望他在爭取未來不管是新加坡甚至於香港甚至於日本的這些競爭上面"},{"start":456.652,"end":474.086,"text":"在台灣在高雄取得一定的一個優勢那這有很多的配套措施必須要一併來處理我希望國發會用你們的高度來協助好的那另外是我要請教的是裡面其實還有一個重要的是稅負優惠的部分這個部分諸位有什麼看法怎麼推動"},{"start":475.647,"end":491.488,"text":"稅賦的優惠的部分我們現在會協助這個金管會跟相關的部會去溝通稅賦的部分那包括這個是目前是比較重要那會對的部分也在溝通中那看起來也算是比較順利"},{"start":492.549,"end":509.518,"text":"那稅賦還要加把劍這幾樣都是重要的一個成功的那個不然為什麼人家要來到台灣來到高雄我希望在這一塊用這個國防會的高度去協助你也是政委我希望用這個高度去協助去做處理讓整個金管會讓各部會間整個動起來"},{"start":512.239,"end":536.609,"text":"因為我覺得有些體系上相對是比較保守一點的那如果國發會用國家發展的高度去處理而且這也是總統的政見落實政見也是國發會一個重要的工作沒錯沒錯所以我希望用這樣的高度去協調處理更大的一個開放更大的一個彈性讓整個這個金融產業在台灣能夠更蓬勃的發展好的好不好那請主委再大力來推動好謝謝委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":638,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（11時42分）謝謝召委，請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委好。我先請教一下，臺灣的景氣燈號，從1月份出來，看來是從紅燈降為紅黃燈，主委怎麼看接下來今年臺灣的景氣狀況？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個紅黃燈代表我們在一個溫和的成長狀態，目前從AI的需求，包括半導體，先進半導體AI相關的訂單來看的話，它還是會帶動我們的外銷持續成長。第二個部分是國內的投資，我們今年預估會到5.7兆，會創歷史新高。最近其實我們也看到很多產業會有急單進來，所以目前我還是比較樂觀看待。"],["賴委員瑞隆：樂觀看待整個景氣的狀況？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們也看到，其實美國的財長對於他們的整個景氣部分擔心是疲軟，甚至民間部門是衰退的，主委怎麼看待？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個其實我們有在觀察，舉個例子，他1月份的民間銷售指數衰退了0.4，是這四年比較高的。我們也在看他們領失業救濟金的人數，的確有比較偏高。我們其實有持續在觀察，但是他最近通膨有一點下滑，所以還呈現一個不是那麼明確的狀態。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以你認為還要再觀察？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：他有好消息，也有壞消息。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就剛剛你講的這些好消息和壞消息……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：前面兩個是不好的，後面那個是好的，所以我們還在觀察，包括他的PPI指數……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個會不會對臺灣產生一些相關的連動影響？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：美國是我們的主要出口國之一，所以值得我們好好的去看他的變化。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以主委怎麼看？審慎樂觀的看待這整個狀況？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前還是審慎樂觀，但是我們還是要非常非常的小心。"],["賴委員瑞隆：非常小心？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，因為政策……"],["賴委員瑞隆：用兩個「非常」。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，因為這是一個很敏感的時候，尤其是4月份、5月份，會是一個很重要的觀察期。"],["賴委員瑞隆：4月份、5月份。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：4月份會是一個很重要的觀察期，因為4月份他會提出他們對於各國關稅的一個狀態。當然他有講到，投資的多，關稅就會少，但是我們還得看一下這是真的假的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就是等於川普政府在關稅上面最後的政策處理。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們還是得看他最後的政策。"],["賴委員瑞隆：依他跟各國談判的結果做處理，所以會影響到整個景氣的方向。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，因為我們難以預測，現在各國都難以預測，所以我才會用兩個「非常」小心，就是我們的確是非常在意這件事情。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好。另外，今年的經濟成長率，大概各機關都評估3%以上，主委應該也是樂觀的看待3%以上吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，因為目前有些是訂單的狀態，魏哲家先生在跟總統的記者會上也講，他的訂單滿到不能再滿。的確也因為這樣，還有新廠需求，已經到這個程度了。整體的發展，看起來AI的變化還是持續往上走，這個需求的變化還是很明確。"],["賴委員瑞隆：今年這些川普的現象，還有臺灣內部的政治紛爭，會不會影響到臺灣的經濟成長率？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有些會影響啦！我舉個例子好了，我們政府投資會有縮減的現象，大概會有0.08左右……"],["賴委員瑞隆：你講的就是我們被大量的刪減跟大量凍結這些狀況嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，包括我們前瞻預算並沒有審核，這個都會造成……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個會影響到多少的經濟成長率？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：大概0.08。"],["賴委員瑞隆：0.08？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它會有0.08%的影響。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果解凍不順利的話呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：解凍不順利我們可能要再算，會增加。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在算的是順利在上半年解凍？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是刪除的部分。"],["賴委員瑞隆：0.08%是刪除的部分？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：另外還有一個就是川普上來之後，全球在看他的政策，都認為對GDP會有傷害，就是傷害的大與小，大概大家都有一個高中低的劇本，的確GDP會有一點影響，但是我們已經考慮了這幾個因素進來，我們唯一沒有考慮到的是，前瞻預算跟現有預算刪減的部分，但是川普的部分，我們在去年估的時候有估進來。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有估進來了，所以還是要努力的守住3%以上。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們會努力守住。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，那我再請教一下，我們看到國發會有些也被刪，包括被刪了2.2億，甚至被凍結30%，3.1億左右。這個對於我們的亞矽計畫、人才計畫跟資安計畫，會不會產生影響？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個預算刪減多少會有影響，有幾個部分會影響比較大，第一個就是資訊部分，會影響到我們的資安跟政府公報，這個是影響比較大，雖然金額是1,000萬，但是影響是比較大一點，就是等於行政院公報會……"],["賴委員瑞隆：資安的部分？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，行政院跟各單位，包括團體、二百多個單位的溝通目前是有影響，這個對我們影響比較大，所以雖然看起來它是1,000萬，可能它的影響會超過5,400萬的地方。另外就是各單位的電費，我們在去年提出預算的時候，沒有考慮到10月的漲價，10月份漲價之後再減15%統刪下來，其實就我了解，不只我們，各部會大概電費都會出現很大的挑戰。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，因為時間有限，我趕快進到下一個……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：5,400萬這塊也是影響比較大，對我們產業發展的規劃。"],["賴委員瑞隆：主委，一起努力啦！我們努力來改變這個。因為時間有限，接下來是關於亞洲資產管理中心，這個是總統的政見，也大力在推動當中。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：高雄已經成立了第一個金融專區，主委有在協助跟掌握吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有的，我們目前有16家業者已經跟政府簽了MOU。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這16家都會進駐嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：他們都是表達高度的意願，同時我們現在開放很多銀行申請私人銀行業務，希望能擴大亞洲資產中心的量能。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，因為第一個點是在高雄做專區。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，在亞灣。"],["賴委員瑞隆：4月份開始進駐，7月份要正式啟動了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，謝謝委員幫忙。"],["賴委員瑞隆：沒有，這要全力來處理。現在它的範圍不只在幾棟建築，我看現在最新的規劃，會在亞灣周邊區域都會做整理。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，它會逐步擴大，我們一開始先以OBU的操作為主，慢慢會再擴大業務範圍。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，除了16家銀行以外，公股部分，像臺銀、土銀這些，未來會有機會加入嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：會。就我了解，現在來申請私人銀行業務的銀行有增加的趨勢，這些應該都會下去。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，這不只是金管會的事，我希望國發會用國家的整體高度來處理，這也是總統的政見，所以這件事情一定要成功，特別是現在不論是國內資金或國際資金，我們希望它在爭取未來不管是新加坡，甚至於香港、日本的競爭上面，在臺灣、在高雄取得一定的優勢。這有很多的配套措施必須一併來處理，我希望國發會用你們的高度來協助。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：另外，我要請教的還有一個重要的稅負優惠部分，這個部分主委有什麼看法？怎麼推動？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：稅負優惠部分，我們現在會協助金管會跟相關的部會去溝通稅負的部分，這個目前是比較重要的。匯兌的部分也在溝通中，看起來也算是比較順利，稅負還要加把勁。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這幾樣都是重要的成功因素，不然為什麼人家要來臺灣、來高雄，我希望在這一塊用國發會的高度去協助。你也是政委，我希望用這個高度去協助處理，讓整個金管會，讓各部會間整個動起來，因為我覺得有些體系上相對比較保守一點，希望國發會用國家發展的高度去處理，而且這也是總統的政見，落實政見也是國發會的重要工作。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以我希望用這樣的高度去協調處理更大的開放、更大的彈性，讓整個金融產業在臺灣能夠更蓬勃的發展，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請主委再大力來推動。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們現在請蔡易餘委員做詢答。","作以下宣告：我們中午不休息，延長開會時間至議程處理完畢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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各位大家午安 是不是就交予我們這個洪部長來 請部長 謝謝評委員好"},{"start":18.53,"end":42.468,"text":"部長好我想今天大家就教很多但我想談一點不一樣的這一點就是說因為我們看到這個名陽大火發生了10個人死亡100多人輕重傷的這個事故還有這個新埔的這個遠東化遷爆炸死亡造成爆炸造成這個多人死亡和受傷的這個狀況"},{"start":44.329,"end":57.08,"text":"那因為新聞被蓋掉了所以當然我特別想要談這個是因為我們發現制度面恐怕還是有一些問題那職安法最大的修正是本人在大概2013年"},{"start":59.68,"end":74.288,"text":"13年修正的嘛那執安法裡面有很多的這個授權的執法交給你們去制定其中有一個叫做製程安全評估定期這個實施辦法那依據執安法的第15條第三項你們去訂了這個執法"},{"start":76.949,"end":81.311,"text":"那規範事業單位大概每5年需要重新驗證製程安全評估報告來確保製程危害能反映操作現況而且這種狀況裡面這個製程安全如果一直產生危害那不管是民養的或者是原動化遷的傷亡都特別的嚴重而且還都是很大的跟公安有很大的連結"},{"start":103.143,"end":121.288,"text":"其實對社區來講它也是一個不定時的炸彈那我要談這個制度面是因為因為這個辦法裡面直接講說適用這個辦法你們強制規定了大概就是你們所謂的假類的工作場所但是呢"},{"start":123.91,"end":138.784,"text":"甲類裡面大概有兩大範疇第一個就是石化業第二個就是製造、處置或使用危險物及有害物達勞動檢查法施行細則附表一、附表二規定數量的工作場所"},{"start":140.134,"end":151.876,"text":"你是限縮在這兩項假類這兩項但是我們現在要討論就是說那我簡單先問你遠東新的化纖廠它是屬於辦法中的規範事業單位嗎現在應該看起來不是不是不是它不是就從這個目前的規範裡面不是對啦那民養是嗎"},{"start":172.675,"end":192.384,"text":"那你們覺得這一個要求製程安全要有個評估計劃五年都要做一次然後自行自律然後自行汰換設備自行做安全檢查那你覺得這個遠東新他們這一類的需不需要"},{"start":194.252,"end":207.004,"text":"跟文說明我其實自己我們自己有去到因為在遠東新的事件爆發之後我自己也去看相關傷者跟我們其實有去探望確實遠東新的案例他過去其實他是不用申報的對那"},{"start":208.991,"end":211.514,"text":"那你覺得需不需要納管我認為需要好那為什麼要講這個是因為我們在今年二月原東興爆炸以後呢你們訂了一個高風險工廠的火災爆炸危害預防指引那你們的適用範圍第一個高風險設備第二個高風險作業"},{"start":230.615,"end":255.861,"text":"那顯然看起來這高風險設備所指涉的範圍你們包括火爐、煙囪、加熱裝置及其他亦引起火災的高熱設備化學設備、高壓氣體設備、危險製造處置及使用的設備等等等等然後高風險作業、容階容斷的作業作業從所亦有亦然亦體的蒸汽、可燃性蒸汽或爆炸性粉塵等等等等"},{"start":257.421,"end":269.726,"text":"你們這一個高風險工廠火災爆炸的危害預防指引的適用範圍顯然遠遠的大於你們製程安全評估定期實施辦法"},{"start":270.782,"end":282.091,"text":"那這個辦法跟這一個作業指引你覺得適用範圍有沒有必要要統整而且要將你們現行的預防指引的適用範圍全部劃入你安全評估必備的必做的這個範圍裡面署長要講謝謝委員其實委員這邊非常專業那我們15條確實是"},{"start":295.959,"end":312.01,"text":"當初定義的邏輯就是讓最高風險的部分要做製程安全評估五年評估一次因為他如果環境改變對啦你們就是鎖定最高風險的那我這次指引就是其實因爲我們第五條本來雇主對他的製程安全就會做一些"},{"start":312.49,"end":327.832,"text":"比較細部的評估展開跟預防不過現在有些問題其實我們內部有討論第一個假類的部分就是第15條要不要做一些再把它做比較嚴格把一些再風險再拉進來這是第一個層次第二層次其他還沒拉進來的部分"},{"start":328.152,"end":342.902,"text":"本來就是僱主依照我們的指引要做他的預防的一些展開那展開之後我們講的結果在後面後段再查核我想是不同城市我們不同風險管理不要講這麼多第一個你就回答我是不是要再擴大納管我們再延續擴大納管以後其實擴大納管也不是讓它涵蓋面更更廣一點然後再來但問題是這樣子"},{"start":351.007,"end":360.295,"text":"他做了計劃他必須強迫五年就要做一次的這個治整安全的評估計劃可是這個計劃等於改善嗎等於改善嗎"},{"start":364.977,"end":391.795,"text":"做計畫 作文比賽 請專家學者花一筆錢告訴你們 然後這個計畫要向你們申報還要報備吧 備案跟委員報告 制裁安全評估所有國家的機制是一致的公司依照管理系統做制裁安全評估評估之後要做後面的PTCA的檢測那我們當然政府機關是看他的過程中得不得當所以這次我們會發這個指引 那我問你一個問題"},{"start":393.462,"end":403.61,"text":"民洋大火是不是需要做它儲存很多化學品是高風險的所以顯然看起來製程安全它是納管的"},{"start":404.383,"end":424.341,"text":"包委其實民間大火在前年發生當然是不管是消防法、共產黨輔導法跟我們治安法院官員的畫面也都在做檢討那這個部分當初它是低爆、漏爆所以沒有進入我們的後來發現它量多應該是變成我們的我現在沒有辦法聽得懂你到底在講什麼"},{"start":425.458,"end":427.119,"text":"因為就現行的納管程度不足的製程安全定期實施辦法看起來民洋都像是甲類裡面它製造 處置或使用危險物達到一定數量的工作場所"},{"start":442.432,"end":460.406,"text":"那我問你他有沒有申報製程安全計畫你說 你就直接告訴我有或沒有報告委員 沒有 因為他前面跟消防法跟工廠法都沒有報了所以這都是在兩年前所以啊 我現在問你 制度在這裡沒有報會怎麼樣沒有報會怎麼樣應報而未報會怎麼樣你當初有開法嗎2023年到現在有開法了嗎"},{"start":470.424,"end":480.546,"text":"明天大火我們授權金家區是有開罰的罰多少我們再把這個罰多少救生員的母法執安法第15條第三項違反法律罰多少死了10個人100多人輕重傷依照執安法應該要申報而未報你們罰多少不會是3萬吧"},{"start":494.895,"end":517.083,"text":"有可能是三萬違反第15條第三項從三萬罰到三十萬罰三十萬死了十個人我們都知道職災的最高原則是預防不要發生而我們治安法的最高原則就是希望要做到不發生而當發生的時候如果代價是這麼輕"},{"start":519.727,"end":528.493,"text":"什麼人管你遵守法律這法尊的意願太低了吧因為罰則太輕了這題我會回去看看當初那個我們的授權進下去到底有罰多少我後續跟委員報告我現在告訴你喔第一個涵蓋面不夠第二個有處分有罰則但是罰得很輕第三"},{"start":546.483,"end":548.443,"text":"我們在講說他必須要五年做一次的報告可是呢 因為民養大火之後有一個環工顧問公司在之後他們去檢視了其他高爾夫球球器製造商請他們進場去看結果該場的作業環境的粉塵和VOC問題遠比民養更嚴重因為民養發生以前他已經去過"},{"start":567.908,"end":577.311,"text":"倘若現場有可燃物質引發火災 後果不堪設想非要等到工廠出事 這是他的意見啦外界才會積極要求檢討改善然而 場內作業環境糟糕 也會造成員工的職業傷病我們都知道 這也是來自職安法所以 在這種狀況裡面 他們一直在抱怨說 其實"},{"start":593.119,"end":602.426,"text":"這個計劃 評估計劃做好了 雇主沒有改善的意願 了備一格需與委員 需與委員應付你們勞動部 那怎麼辦"},{"start":603.837,"end":617.861,"text":"那個我應該講幾件事情第一個事情是納管的範圍對涵蓋面不夠是不是可以擴大涵蓋面不夠跟高風險工廠火災爆炸危害預防指引應該要重疊起來在這一份指引裡面的納管範圍我們會來請治安署來做檢討關於納管範圍然後罰則不夠第二個是怎麼讓這些廠商尤其是高風險的廠商能夠去落實這一類需要爆的"},{"start":631.764,"end":658.33,"text":"都已經是高風險而且目前是最高風險但是最高風險是沒有你看他漏報你們也不知道全台灣還有多少漏報所以法規跟管制的工具怎麼樣來強化目的是要讓這些事情我們想要做的管理跟管制能夠落實這兩點我們會來請資安署來做檢討第三點有做了報告但不等於改善"},{"start":659.33,"end":676.552,"text":"這件事情要怎麼解決這是我剛才說的落實啊就是說你有做報告可是你沒有在實際的作為上面去落實那怎麼樣子來要求這些廠商必須要來落實他們去做的相關的報告我覺得這部分我請治安署這邊這是製作面很大的漏洞啊"},{"start":676.932,"end":694.613,"text":"而且到現在漏報沒有申報你們完全沒辦法勾機而且沒有辦法再檢查製程安全他著重的是在講工業製程相關的危害特別是他都是重大的公安危害火災爆炸毒性化學物質的外洩能量釋放的這是這麼重大的危害"},{"start":695.194,"end":715.926,"text":"其實這個以製程安全的操作環境為目標保持製程的安全操作狀態才能夠確保這個受僱者他有一個安全還有才能確保這一個工廠的周遭的環境是安全所以製程安全的操作跟工廠設施的設計人員安全的操作和良好的維護有關在這種狀況如果法制面是這樣子這麼簡單就可以逃脫"},{"start":723.971,"end":734.097,"text":"我們的法制面原來是這麼簡單可以刪掉 刪掉以後沒有任何的處分政府不知道的不知道 直到爆炸才知道這就是最重大的問題好 那我再講第二個問題這是根據勞動及職業安全衛生紀刊 研究紀刊113年12月裡面一篇報導"},{"start":746.084,"end":748.165,"text":"他們有發現因為大家還有去申報的沒申報的你們都搞不清楚但有去申報的裡面發現製程的整個生命週期中重複實施製程安全評估實務面上發現"},{"start":762.054,"end":776.355,"text":"在經過評估週期後越不容易發現新的中度的風險和較高風險的危害那況且今年化學品災難性事故如火災爆炸事故頻傳"},{"start":778.238,"end":793.39,"text":"這種事故的調查發現在製程安全評估時多半沒有分析到潛在危害顯然製程安全評估的有效性已經出現疑慮好 這個意思是什麼就是說 你都不要出事 你如果出事然後他們就要進場去調查"},{"start":798.275,"end":824.492,"text":"調查事故的時候發現他們交給你們的上傳給你們的備案交給你們報備的他們的製程安全評估計畫其實都沒有分析到潛在危害親債給你高高的 你的親債備案你如果就沒人在看所以這個製程安全評估的這一個制度在運作上顯然是了備一格的"},{"start":828.853,"end":829.338,"text":"这样没办法"},{"start":831.718,"end":861.04,"text":"報告委員那個民間的意見我們尊重但是我們做送過來的甲類的工作場所的評估報告書我們也會從評估報告書裡面去看他的他的那個時效性而且我們從這個時效 怎麼五年一次要說時效報告委員我們還列入我們專案 連沒做的人完全沒時效的問題啊直接直接沒做啊 報告委員我們列管這些甲類的工作場所也會做專案如果你有列管他沒有申報你怎麼會不知道有沒有列管的然後沒有申報的你不知道的報告委員現在沒有申報的部分就我們會用到那個我們"},{"start":861.861,"end":869.53,"text":"行政院在列一個化學雲的那個平台把工廠輔導法通報的資料你現在講的好像都沒有問題可是執行面就是給你問起來你會欺負一個人我們沒有說沒有問題我們會持續讓這個風險控制到最低你可以保證未來"},{"start":880.582,"end":902.902,"text":"絕對不會有任何一家甲類的或是未來全面性涵蓋性更廣的納管的不會有不申報或是申報不實或是申報內容沒有涵蓋到分析潛在危害或是他申報到有潛在危害但是不等於改善 他願意改善因為法規沒有強制他要求改善 那怎麼辦"},{"start":905.492,"end":924.192,"text":"包委員風險評估的精神就是他要持續的不斷改善啊沒有改善啊沒有改善啊內積跟外積要做後續的外積在哪裡外積你們積了多少包委員內積內積哪有內積他內部的積才就請人家來評估評估完了就依舊如故"},{"start":925.974,"end":939.469,"text":"報告就歸報告但是所以我們在講說這個顧問公司的人看到的現場就是現在寫了報告了但是廠商不願意改善也沒有動機改善也沒有動力改善因為官方沒人在查啊沒人要緊啊"},{"start":944.54,"end":959.214,"text":"這個就是現在真正的事實報告委員我們其實我們那個甲類工廠所那個報告書我們也做抽案查核所以委員今天跟我們提醒我們要做積極的改善其實如果一上工廠生產最危險的東西風險他創造他自己要做"},{"start":959.935,"end":970.118,"text":"有效的改善跟解除那我們假機構跟我們展署是在那監督要求改善角度其實他們叫做你講的是理想狀態是應該這樣沒有錯但是我們都以為工廠會自律業者會自律因為整個廠燒掉他們不會有好處要付出很大的代價可是真正的事實是大家都有一種姑且的"},{"start":981.541,"end":989.707,"text":"不可能這麼衰 不可能會發生的如果沒有 剛剛講民養之後這個顧問公司到其他的高爾夫球劇場去看VOC粉塵 比民養更嚴重欸所以你不要以為說 廠商理所當然應該要怎麼樣 沒有這一回事所以關於這個 這件事情是知識體大而且我再講一次 這個東西只是規範最高風險的那幾家而已"},{"start":1013.208,"end":1040.019,"text":"這個納管跟蓋面還很低耶可是我要跟你講一個數據你要清楚 部長你要聽一下2016到2023年這7年經統計國內工廠 潮車交通實驗室除倉儲學校及其那場所發生危害性化學物質事故每年都超過400件其中工廠事故251件最多而工廠的事故裡面火災爆炸的件數最多"},{"start":1041.119,"end":1061.075,"text":"上述的上述不是只有工廠啦331件所以在這種狀況裡面這很重大的公安危害我們是看到執安署的執安組組長朱文勇說今年的勞動檢查方針要加強火災爆炸高風險工廠的檢查是不是真的部長"},{"start":1063.179,"end":1071.288,"text":"近期真的發生了很多件包括剛剛講的遠東新世紀都是個案的啦你們有沒有通案要去檢查接下來你們的組長是說預計今年要檢查1000多個場次有嗎"},{"start":1078.427,"end":1107.566,"text":"包委員確實我們看火災爆炸案子今年跟去年有增加趨勢所以我們除了遠東化遷這個案子我們這邊倒升油的專案檢查做展開出廠覆查原來遠東化遷不需要講了我們知道這是你們經常拿出來當標竿的火災爆炸特別石化業的專案檢查我們今年會做著重做這樣處理就不要再講遠東化遷因為遠東化遷實在是很漏氣的因為人家是你們的得獎廠商我看看那個獎是什麼獎"},{"start":1109.028,"end":1111.31,"text":"你們那個獎是什麼獎 他是得到你們什麼獎2023年職安署辦理第一屆健康勞動力永續領航企業選拔健康勞動力獲獎名單遠東新世紀然後呢就馬上發生爆炸造成兩人死亡還有幾人受傷"},{"start":1135.111,"end":1136.612,"text":"然後他是設備老舊然後你們當天我們開了記者會以後你們專屬有承認你們審查健康勞動力領航企業的審查標準是根據企業所提供的白皮書寫的好不好做書面審查"},{"start":1155.528,"end":1159.331,"text":"這完全是脫離實際狀況所以得獎的廠商馬上就造成重大傷亡委員這我沒辦法接受所以接下來我們會要求要把考慮器我們也沒辦法接受國安事故違規紀錄我沒辦法接受是"},{"start":1171.301,"end":1177.463,"text":"台灣石化產業很多是上市貴公司非常大的經濟規模過去景氣好的時候他們都不願意花錢改善而現在我們知道石化業或者是傳統產業他現在世界的景氣不好或者是國際的競爭力下降了他更不可能花"},{"start":1191.809,"end":1200.893,"text":"白白沒有發生事情的時候去花錢所以我們不是希望你仰賴業者的自律而是希望國家政府要進場進場"},{"start":1206.014,"end":1223.301,"text":"對可以嗎我的質詢只有質詢到一半啦還有另外一個制度面問題下一次再問啦但是就是說可以嗎先跟委員說明我們當然我自己不希望是去只依賴業者的自律第二個剛剛委員講到那個獎項的評選的問題"},{"start":1225.908,"end":1240.444,"text":"出面作業審查居然以一個過去職災紀錄或者是發生公安紀錄這麼多的廠商居然被納選進去2023年的永續臨航獎這個我不能接受所以我們會要求把這些公安紀錄違規紀錄都要納入未來評選的考慮裡面"},{"start":1245.088,"end":1253.914,"text":"每年都燒 每年都燒 還可以得到得獎第一屆治安署的這個獎項沒有辦法接受 你要回去好好檢討好 謝謝林淑芬委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":876,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時27分）主席，各位大家午安。就教洪部長。"],["主席：請部長，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。我想今天大家就教很多，但我想談一點不一樣的。我們看到明揚大火發生了10個人死亡、一百多人輕重傷的事故，還有新埔的遠東化纖爆炸造成多人死亡和受傷的狀況，但是新聞被蓋掉了。我特別想要談是因為我們發現制度面恐怕還是有一些問題。職安法最大的修正是本人在大概2013年修正，職安法裡面有很多授權的子法交給你們去制定，其中有一個叫做「製程安全評估定期實施辦法」，你們依據職安法第十五條第三項訂了子法，規範事業單位每5年需要重新驗證製程安全評估報告，確保製程危害能反應操作現況，而且在這種狀況裡面，製程安全如果一旦產生危害，不管是明揚或者是遠東化纖，傷亡都特別的嚴重，而且跟公安有很大的連結，其實對社區來講，它也是一個不定時的炸彈。","我要談這個制度面是因為你們強制規定適用這個辦法的是甲類的工作場所，但是甲類裡面大概有兩大範疇，第一個、石化業，第二個、製造、處置或使用危險物及有害物，達勞動檢查法施行細則附表一及附表二規定數量的工作場所，你們是限縮在甲類這兩項。我簡單先問，遠東新的化纖廠是屬於辦法中規範的事業單位嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：現在看起來應該不是。"],["林委員淑芬：不是。明揚……"],["洪部長申翰：從這一個目前的規範裡面不是。"],["林委員淑芬：對啦，那明揚是嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：明揚是。"],["林委員淑芬：好，你們覺得要求製程安全要有評估計畫，5年都要做一次，自行自律、自行汰換設備、自行做安全檢查，你覺得遠東新這一類的需不需要？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，在遠東化纖的事件爆發之後，我自己也去探望相關的傷者，確實以遠東新的案例……"],["林委員淑芬：它是不用申報的喔。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["林委員淑芬：那你覺得需不需要納管？"],["洪部長申翰：我認為需要。"],["林委員淑芬：為什麼會講這個？是因為在今年2月遠東新爆炸以後，你們訂了一個「高風險工廠火災爆炸危害預防指引」，適用範圍第一個、高風險設備，第二個、高風險作業。高風險設備所指的範圍包括火爐、煙囪、加熱裝置及其他易引起火災的高熱設備；化學設備；高壓氣體設備；危險物製造、處置及使用的設備等等。高風險作業包括熔接、熔斷作業；作業場所有易燃液體的蒸氣、可燃性氣體或爆燃性粉塵等等。你們這一個「高風險工廠火災爆炸危害預防指引」的適用範圍，顯然遠遠地大於你們的製程安全評估定期實施辦法，這個辦法跟這一個作業指引，你覺得適用範圍有沒有必要統整，而且將現行預防指引的適用範圍全部劃入安全評估必備、必做的這個範圍裡面？署長要講。"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員。其實委員對於這個非常專業，我們第十五條當初定義的邏輯是讓最高風險的部分要做製程安全評估，5年評估一次，因為它如果環境改變，就要做比較基準……"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！你們就只鎖定最高風險的。"],["鄒署長子廉：是，這一次指引其實依照第五條，本來雇主對它的製程安全就會做一些比較細部的評估展開跟預防，不過謝謝委員提醒，我們內部來討論，第一個，甲類部分，第十五條要不要再把它做得比較嚴格，把一些風險再納進來，這是第一個層次。第二個層次，其他還沒有納進來的部分，本來就是雇主依照我們的指引要做它預防的一些展開，展開之後，我們檢查機構在後端查核，我想是不同層次我們做不同的風險管理。"],["林委員淑芬：好啦！不要講這麼多，第一個，你就回答我，是不是要再擴大納管？"],["鄒署長子廉：我們在研析了。"],["林委員淑芬：擴大納管以後，其實擴大納管也不過是讓它涵蓋面更廣一點，但問題是這樣子，它做了計畫，它必須強迫5年就要做一次製程安全的評估計畫，可是這個計畫等於改善嗎？等於改善嗎？做了計畫，作文比賽，請專家學者花一筆錢，告訴你們，然後這個計畫還要向你們申報，還要報備嘛！備案。"],["鄒署長子廉：製程安全評估所有國家的機制是一致的，公司依照管理系統做製程安全評估，評估出來做後面的PDCA檢測，當然我們政府機關是看它的過程中得不得當，所以這一次我們會發這個指引是覺得……"],["林委員淑芬：那我問你一個問題，明揚大火是不是需要做？它儲存很多化學品是高風險的，所以顯然看起來製程安全它是納管的。"],["鄒署長子廉：其實明揚大火在前年發生，不管是消防法、工廠輔導法跟我們職安法，營業用過氧化物都在檢討，這個部分當初它是低報、漏報，所以沒有計入我們的那個……"],["林委員淑芬：所以啊！"],["鄒署長子廉：後來發現它量多，應該是變為我們的管制範圍……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在沒有辦法聽得懂你到底在講什麼，因為就現行納管程度不足的製程安全定期實施辦法，看起來明揚都像是甲類裡面製造、處置或使用危險物達到一定數量的工作場所。我問你它有沒有申報製程安全計畫，你就直接告訴我有或沒有。"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，漏報！"],["鄒署長子廉：因為它連跟消防法、工廠輔導法都沒有報了，所以當時在兩年前我們發現這個問題……"],["林委員淑芬：所以啊！我現在問你，制度在這裡，沒有報會怎麼樣？沒有報會怎麼樣？應報而未報會怎麼樣？"],["鄒署長子廉：我們當然就會依照我們的法律來做處理。"],["林委員淑芬：你當初有開罰嗎？2023年到現在，有開罰了嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：明揚大火我們授權經加區是有開罰的。"],["林委員淑芬：罰多少？"],["鄒署長子廉：我們再把這個……"],["林委員淑芬：罰多少？"],["鄒署長子廉：我現在不知道。"],["林委員淑芬：就現行的母法職安法第十五條第三項，違反法律罰多少？死了10個人，一百多人輕重傷，依照職安法應該要申報而未報，你們罰多少？不會是3萬吧？有可能是3萬哦！"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，應該不會。"],["林委員淑芬：違反第十五條第三項，從3萬罰到……"],["鄒署長子廉：3萬到300萬。"],["林委員淑芬：30萬。"],["鄒署長子廉：沒有，還要到……"],["林委員淑芬：罰30萬，死了10個人！"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，那一條……"],["林委員淑芬：我們都知道職災的最高原則是預防，不要發生，我們職安法的最高原則就是希望要做到不發生，而當發生的時候如果代價是這麼輕，什麼人願意遵守法律？這個法遵的意願太低了吧！因為罰責太輕了。"],["鄒署長子廉：第十五條違反的時候，造成重大職災死亡是罰3萬到300萬。這一題我會回去看看當初我們的授權經加區大概有罰多少，後續再跟委員報告。另外就是職安法的部分，我們這次在修法……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在在告訴你，第一個，涵蓋面不夠。第二，有處分有罰責，但是罰得很輕。第三，我們在講說它必須要5年做一次報告，可是在明揚大火之後，有一個環工顧問公司去檢視其他高爾夫球球具製造商，請他們進場去看，結果該廠作業環境的粉塵和VOC問題遠比明揚更嚴重，因為明揚發生以前他也進去過，倘若現場有可燃物質引發火災，後果不堪設想，非要等到工廠出事（這是他的意見啦！）外界才會積極要求檢討改善，然而場內作業環境糟糕，也會造成員工的職業傷病。我們都知道這也是來自職安法，所以在這種狀況裡面，他們一直在抱怨說這個評估計畫做好了，但雇主都沒有改善的意願，聊備一格，虛與委蛇，應付你們勞動部，那怎麼辦？"],["洪部長申翰：委員剛才講了幾件事情，第一件事情是納管的範圍……"],["林委員淑芬：對，涵蓋面不夠。"],["洪部長申翰：是不是可以擴大，這部分我們會……"],["林委員淑芬：涵蓋面不夠，與高風險工廠火災爆炸危害預防指引應該要重疊起來。"],["洪部長申翰：對，在這一份指引裡面的納管範圍，我們會請職安署來做個檢討，這是第一個。"],["林委員淑芬：對，然後罰責不夠。"],["洪部長申翰：第二個是怎麼讓這些廠商，尤其是高風險的廠商能夠去落實。"],["林委員淑芬：這一類需要報的都已經是高風險了，而且目前是最高風險……"],["洪部長申翰：那法規……"],["林委員淑芬：但是最高風險的，你看它漏報你們也不知道，全臺灣還有多少漏報？"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以法規跟管制的工具怎麼樣來強化，目的是要讓我們想要做的管理跟管制能夠落實，這兩點我們會請職安署來做檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：還有第三點，有做了報告，但不等於改善，這件事情要怎麼解決？"],["洪部長申翰：這就是我剛才說的落實啊！就是說你有做報告，可是你沒有在實際作為上面去落實，那怎麼樣子來要求這些廠商必須要落實他們去做的相關報告，我覺得這部分我們請職安署這邊……"],["林委員淑芬：這是制度面很大的漏洞啊！"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["林委員淑芬：而且到現在漏報、沒有申報，你們完全沒辦法勾稽，而且沒有辦法再檢查。製程安全它著重的是工業製程相關的危害，特別是它都是重大的工安危害，火災、爆炸、毒性化學物質外洩、能量釋放等，這是這麼重大的危害，其實要以製程安全的操作環境為目標，保持製程的安全操作狀態，才能夠確保受僱者的安全，還有確保這個工廠周遭的環境是安全的，所以製程安全的操作與工廠設施的設計、人員安全的操作和良好的維護有關。在這種狀況下，如果法制面這麼簡單就可以逃脫，我們的法制面原來這麼簡單可以閃掉，閃掉之後沒有任何處分，政府連知道都不知道，直到爆炸才知道，這就是最重大的問題。","我再講第二個問題，這是根據勞動及職業安全衛生研究季刊113年12月裡面的一篇報導，他們有發現，因為大家有申報、沒申報你們都搞不清楚，但有去申報的裡面發現，製程的整個生命週期中重複實施製程安全評估，實務面上發現，在經過評估週期後，越不容易發現新的中度風險和較高風險的危害，況且近年化學品災難性事故如火災、爆炸事故頻傳，這種事故的調查發現，在製程安全評估時多半沒有分析到潛在危害，顯然製程安全評估的有效性已經出現疑慮。這個意思是什麼？就是說好，你都別出事，你如果出事他們就要進場去調查，調查事故的時候發現，他們繳給你們、上傳給你們的備案，交給你們報備的製程安全評估計畫其實都沒有分析到潛在危害，隨便交一交，你就隨便備案，然後就沒有人在看了，所以製程安全評估這一個制度在運作上顯然是聊備一格的，這樣要怎麼辦？"],["鄒署長子廉：民間的意見我們尊重，但是送過來的甲類工作場所的評估報告書，我們也會從評估報告裡面去看它的時效性，而且我們從這個部分……"],["林委員淑芬：時效，就5年做一次，當然有時效。"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們還列入我們專案……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有做的人就完全沒有時效的問題啊！直接沒做啊！"],["鄒署長子廉：我們也列管這些甲類的工作場所，也會做專案檢查。"],["林委員淑芬：如果你有列管，它沒有申報你怎麼會不知道？有沒有列管的，然後沒有申報，你們不知道的？"],["鄒署長子廉：現在沒有申報的部分，我們會用行政院化學雲那個平臺，把工廠輔導法通報的資料跟消防法通報的資料……"],["林委員淑芬：你現在講得好像都沒有問題，可是問起執行面，你這裡也漏一個，那裡也漏一個。"],["鄒署長子廉：沒有、沒有，報告委員，我們沒有說沒有問題，我們會持續把這個風險控制到最低，當然我們會繼續加油。"],["林委員淑芬：你可以保證未來絕對不會有任何一家甲類的，或是未來全面性、涵蓋性更廣的納管，不會有不申報或是申報不實，或是申報內容沒有涵蓋到分析潛在危害，或是它申報有潛在危害，但是不等於它願意改善，因為法規沒有強制要求它改善啊！那怎麼辦？"],["鄒署長子廉：風險評估的精神就是它要持續不斷地改善。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有改善啊！沒有改善啊！"],["鄒署長子廉：不是，在它的內稽跟外稽要做後續的一些改善嘛！"],["林委員淑芬：外稽在哪裡？外稽你們稽了多少？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，外稽……"],["林委員淑芬：內稽，哪有內稽？它內部的稽查就請人家來評估，評估完了就依舊如故，報告就歸報告，所以我們在講，這個顧問公司的人看到的現場就是它寫了報告了，但是廠商不願意改善，也沒有動機改善，也沒有動力改善，因為官方沒人在查啊！沒人重視啊！這個就是現在真正的事實。"],["鄒署長子廉：其實甲類工作場所那個報告書我們也做抽案查核啦！委員今天給我們的提醒，我們會積極地改善。其實邏輯上，工廠生產最危險的東西，風險它創造，它自己要做有效的改善與解除，至於檢查機構跟我們職安署是站在監督要求改善的角度，他們就要去改善。"],["林委員淑芬：你講的是理想狀態，應該是這樣沒有錯，但是我們都以為工廠會自律，業者會自律，因為整個廠燒掉他們不會有好處，要付出很大的代價。可是真正的事實是，大家都有一種姑且的心態，不可能這麼倒楣，不可能會發生，就像我剛剛講在明揚之後，這個顧問公司到其他的高爾夫球具廠去看，VOC、粉塵比明揚更嚴重耶！所以你不要以為廠商理所當然應該要怎麼樣，沒有這一回事！","關於這件事情是茲事體大，而且我再講一次，這個東西只是規範最高風險的那幾家而已，納管涵蓋面還很低耶！我要跟你講一個數據，你要清楚，部長你要聽一下，2016到2023年這7年，經統計，國內工廠、槽車交通、實驗室、倉儲、學校及其他場所發生危害性化學物質事故，每年都超過400件，其中工廠事故251件最多，而工廠的事故裡面，火災爆炸的件數最多，是上述的場所，不是只有工廠啦！331件，在這種狀況裡面，這是很重大的工安危害，我們看到職安署的職安組組長朱文勇說，今年的勞動檢查方針要加強火災爆炸高風險工廠的檢查，是不是真的？部長。"],["洪部長申翰：近期真的發生了很多件，包括剛剛講的遠東新世紀，都是火災爆炸。"],["林委員淑芬：不是個案的啦！你們有沒有要通案去檢查？"],["洪部長申翰：接下來會……"],["林委員淑芬：本來你們的組長是說，預計今年要檢查一千多個場次，有嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：確實我們看火災爆炸的案子，今年跟去年有增加的趨勢，所以除了遠東化纖這個案子，我們針對道生油的專案檢查做展開，初查、複查，我們的場次增加。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有啦！遠東化纖不需要講了，我們知道，這是你們經常拿出來當標竿的。"],["鄒署長子廉：然後就是高風險的部分，我們有做火災爆炸，特別是石化業的專案檢查，我們今年會著重做這樣的處理，會。"],["林委員淑芬：就不要再講遠東化纖，遠東化纖實在是很漏氣，因為它是你們的得獎廠商耶！我看看那個獎是什麼獎，你們那個獎是什麼獎？它是得到你們什麼獎？2023年職安署辦理第一屆健康勞動力永續領航企業選拔，獲獎名單：遠東新世紀。然後就馬上發生爆炸，造成兩人死亡，還有幾人受傷，然後它是設備老舊。","當天我們開了記者會以後，你們職安署有承認，你們審查健康勞動力領航企業的審查標準，是根據企業所提供的白皮書寫得好不好做書面審查，這完全是脫離實際狀況，所以得獎的廠商馬上就造成重大傷亡。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，這我也沒辦法接受，所以接下來我們會要求，要考慮企業……"],["林委員淑芬：我們也沒辦法接受，部長。"],["洪部長申翰：工安事故、違規紀錄都要納入這個評獎的範圍。"],["林委員淑芬：我們沒辦法接受的是，臺灣石化產業很多是上市櫃公司，有非常大的經濟規模，過去景氣好的時候他們都不願意花錢改善，而現在我們知道石化業或者是傳統產業因為現在世界的景氣不好，或者是國際的競爭力下降了，它更不可能在沒有發生事情的時候白白去花錢，所以我們不是希望你仰賴業者自律，而是希望國家政府要進場，進場！可以嗎？"],["主席（黃委員秀芳代）：林委員，因為時間已經超過很多了。"],["林委員淑芬：我的質詢只有質詢到一半，還有另外一個制度面的問題下一次再問，但是就是說可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：先跟委員說明，我自己不希望只是依賴業者的自律。"],["林委員淑芬：是。"],["洪部長申翰：第二個，剛才委員講到那個獎項評選的問題，就是說……"],["林委員淑芬：書面作業審查。"],["洪部長申翰：以一個過去職災紀錄，或者是發生工安紀錄這麼多的廠商，居然被選進去2023年的永續領航獎，這個我也不能接受，所以我們會要求……"],["林委員淑芬：它是一年一燒，每年都燒。"],["洪部長申翰：這些工安紀錄、違規紀錄都要納入未來評選的考慮裡面。"],["林委員淑芬：每年都燒、每年都燒，還可以得獎，第一屆職安署的這個獎項。"],["洪部長申翰：是，這我們沒有辦法接受。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有辦法接受，你回去要好好檢討。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員。","接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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就是三減創最 你說不是歷年新低可是最近幾年的新低啦這個是學你們卓院長講的卓院長沒有卓院長一直在講說什麼凍結是歷年新高我跟他講過去光是有八個年度比他就超過了結果他改口是最近幾年凍結的新低這個我們接受啦"},{"start":133.968,"end":147.677,"text":"沒有啦 部長現在不要爭議這個 現在最重要是你增加你現在還有一些針對性的刪減跟那個凍結 凍結還要經過大院專案報告還要能夠同意所以部長 那個抱電話問你 你已經坐過清管會主委 你也坐過國安會的這個秘書長你印象中有凍結的預算沒有被 後來被解凍的嗎"},{"start":154.83,"end":180.866,"text":"以前凍結預算都在委員會就解凍啊沒有沒有在委員會解凍你嚴重被誤導了我去查了一次 院會要求凍結以後要院會報告以後解凍了很多問題是後來都解決您舉一個例子那我就不得不說那你舉一個例子哪一個案子要在院會專案報告同意以後才可以解凍你告訴我你隨便去翻每一年都好幾個案子不是專案報告啦那個部長你完全弄錯了"},{"start":184.068,"end":191.171,"text":"立法院的立法院叫你去院會提專案不見得是一定是有專案報告可能是提了一個聽我講完聽我講完有兩個層次一個是你提了一個報告來就解凍了對不對這個是目前你可能最希望的連報告都不要第二個是"},{"start":201.072,"end":213.823,"text":"就是你提了報告來以後 經過立法院的解凍像昨天我就很清楚跟交通委員會講交通委員會在上個會 去年差不多這個時候它經過一次的會議 它解凍了31個凍結案啊"},{"start":216.534,"end":220.538,"text":"你已經當了經管會主委當了秘書長部長來我更重要我要問你跟委員報告您這邊凍結了899億去年才凍結2億都是委員會書面報告或專案報告沒有在院會做專案報告才可以解凍你的凍結數高達899億其中"},{"start":237.472,"end":262.423,"text":"業務費的部分應該是佔了744億業務費是所有部位全部凍結的30%那會單獨叫你一個國安部長去那邊報告嗎當然是整體提出來以後整體就處理了嘛這很簡單你不要想太誤導最重要的部長你不是來張委員也不是院長我不曉得院長要如何主持這個到院會專案報告來跟你講從以前的往例啊這個解凍只要是你解決的問題為什麼會凍結"},{"start":264.944,"end":282.521,"text":"就是因為我們每次問你們問題的時候你們要請答的時候不回答問題的時候當木頭人不回答對不對我們的調查權你們也不給我們所以是用預算權去凍結完之後叫你解決問題啊重點是你說解決問題就解決怎麼樣最重要的來我來幫王定宇打抱不平你講說那個預算被大砍我問你如果砍的是對的類銷專案買無人機對不對"},{"start":289.687,"end":308.622,"text":"那個原因是因為美國他們自己本來報給我們多少116億對不對後來是他們自己改的啊改了55億那這個要不要刪減連王定宇都贊成啊對不對結果變成是柯建民出來講所以王定宇還罵他說你認知是不是有問題"},{"start":310.014,"end":334.473,"text":"明明是美國自己的報價把他剪下來每一部分都很民主民高啊 當然是要刪減啊各位委員報告我們在外交官方委員會這些的都經過大家朝野在外交官方委員會大家都同意現在主要的部分是到了院會之後啊你比如說我一直在講的國外的旅費跟訓練費用的支出"},{"start":334.793,"end":360.358,"text":"他最重要的就是他寫一個不得流用你這個不得流用就完蛋了我們現在我已經坦白講到國外協訓你現在講的都是歷年來立法院成立以來每一年都是這樣審議算沒有很多規定沒有流用的沒有不得流用這四個字出現過嘛通山的項目裡面沒有這樣子嘛我不要說要你下台我說我拿出來不要講一個如果有十次不得流用你要不要跟全民道歉"},{"start":361.098,"end":377.215,"text":"不要講一次喔我去舉十個例子出來你要不要跟人民道歉通山的項目過去這個是立法院長久審議算的怎麼會沒有流用這個字眼呢這是預算法裡面明定的啊每一年都這樣沒有在通山的項目裡面去講不得流用的"},{"start":378.086,"end":405.143,"text":"有 阿爸 部長這樣好不好 我提十個你跟前面道歉 好不好我提十個 你跟前面道歉好 OK 現在最重要的 凍結是可以解凍的部長你的責任應該是盡快提出解凍案我們院會或者是委員會趕快通過 趕快解決那問你一個比較重要 人民股關係的問題可是那個院會要求我們要花費百分之三十以上才可以去申請解凍那這個又設下了一個門檻三十 那現在已經三月底啦不就是差不多時間了嗎沒有啊"},{"start":408.045,"end":422.412,"text":"議連的 部長 部長 你做一下顧為政務官啊 每一年禮拜都是這樣我們會遵照委員的指示 儘速提出解凍案 也希望院會儘速進行解凍對 就是這樣 對 你來這邊是要解決問題的 要倒退後來 問一個民眾現在最關心的 這幾天啊 有出現兩個很重要的議題一個說我們的義務役啊 要從一年延長為兩年"},{"start":436.803,"end":451.772,"text":"第二個是女性可能要服兵役部長,這兩件事情有可能成真嗎?沒有沒有任何這樣的規劃存在沒有這樣的規劃?對,沒有當初這個,因為是四個月"},{"start":454.239,"end":470.999,"text":"討論一段時間就變一年了嘛對不對這段時間美國有沒有關心希望我們自己防衛自己把定義延長到兩年我沒有接觸過美黃給我任何這樣的訊息那部長因為你應該任期應該還有三年啦你能不能保證在你的任期內不會我們的義務役的"},{"start":473.642,"end":486.034,"text":"議期不會從一年變兩年我怎麼知道我的任期還要多 我是政務官沒有任期好 所以保證你的任內我們的兵役不會從 義務役不會從一年變兩年我們現在正在確實的檢討一年級義務役的訓練成效沒有做任何有關延長為兩年的義務役的一個規劃存在也沒有女性扶義務役的規劃的案子存在"},{"start":500.319,"end":526.252,"text":"我給大家看一個數據這是國防研究院的兩篇報告都是2月底密集發的兩篇研究報告第一篇 志願士兵的徵選條件結論是什麼建立想實評估女性人力服役物役的政策開發人力的來源第二篇 結論是什麼女性服役物役是未來兵役制度改革的可行方案之一"},{"start":528.088,"end":549.273,"text":"國防研究院是你國防部出席的你官方的智庫欸他為什麼要研究這個結論為什麼要女性要去服兵役國防院每個研究員都會發表他自己依據他的所認知的部分他的專業他做任何的一些報告案但這並不代表國防部的政策那你們前陣子還有聯合發清清楚楚寫嘛對不對"},{"start":555.868,"end":576.66,"text":"你們也提出了一部分就是說要針對這個做研究啊不是嗎你信服一位啊沒有嗎我國防部沒有做過這樣的研究啊好啦部長現在最重要我剛給你看的都是數據聯合報的報導還有你們國家研究院國防研究院的這個報告我們做個結論部長部長我們做個結論我們時間主席已經站起來了我們做個結論所以你的任內你能不能保證"},{"start":582.301,"end":608.545,"text":"兵役不會從一年變成兩年女性不會服兵役國防部現在沒有任何有關女性服藥服役務役以及要將役務役延長為兩年的任何規劃存在沒有這樣的規劃嘛那你的任內會不會推動變成是兩年我不知道我的任內有多長所以你不願意保證就對了我沒有什麼可以當四年這樣子的一個講話存在你的任內你不願意保證嘛現在就是要保證還是不保證"},{"start":610.135,"end":612.698,"text":"報告委員 我剛剛已經一再重複了國防部現在沒有任何女性服務一無一跟一無一延長為兩年的規劃對 沒有規劃嘛 那你可不可以保證不會推動這個"},{"start":622.645,"end":648.497,"text":"我們現在就沒有這樣子的任何的政策推動你意思是不會推動對不對不會推動你任內也不會出現這兩個我現在沒有做過要有做過要有這樣的推動的這樣的一個計畫規劃存在部長你這樣的答案是閃抖還是保證說不會推動我沒有任何的閃抖委員你這樣子一直在repeat一些這樣子謝謝張委員讓全民看看部長到底是說他在規避還是他不會推動還是會推動謝謝張委員的質詢那部長先請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":558,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時32分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：我們有請顧部長。"],["顧部長立雄：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，今年國防部的預算增加將近四百億嘛！這是歷史上的一個新高，事實上這個刪減的幅度也是最近幾年的新低。今天我們駐美代表余大㵢有一個華爾街日報的專訪，今天最新的消息，他特別強調，臺灣最近這十年國防預算已經翻了一倍。可是部長，前陣子非常奇怪，是不是有人到美國去告洋狀，而且還說了謊，所以導致美國國防部的次長提名人柯伯吉說，臺灣國會大刪的經費令人不安。怎麼會出現這麼離譜的謠言？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，螢幕上你講的是刪減46億，應該不對吧？應該是刪減84億吧！"],["張委員啓楷：我們就把這個算進來也是近年來的新低，對不對？最重要是剛剛講的……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，不是新低，84億不是新低。"],["張委員啓楷：最近幾年的新低。沒有，部長，最重要的它是創了歷史以來的新高嘛！我剛剛特別跟你講，我們駐美代表為什麼要……"],["顧部長立雄：你現在講的是指預算創新高，刪減數沒有創新低。"],["張委員啓楷：最近幾年的新低。"],["顧部長立雄：我們預算一直在穩健成長。"],["張委員啓楷：對。"],["顧部長立雄：但是我們今年刪了是84億，沒有算新低，你這個講法也不對，你說只刪減46億是不對啦！"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！就是刪減創最……你說不是歷年新低，可是是最近幾年的新低，這個是學……"],["顧部長立雄：也不是歷年……"],["張委員啓楷：這個是學你們卓院長講的……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有這幾年的新低……"],["張委員啓楷：卓院長一直在講什麼凍結是歷年新高，我跟他講過去光是有8個年度比起它就超過了，結果他才改口。"],["顧部長立雄：你看一下過去這幾年的刪減數。"],["張委員啓楷：最近幾年凍結的新低，這個我們接受啦！沒有，部長，現在不要爭議，最重要的你增加是歷年……"],["顧部長立雄：你現在還有一些針對性的刪減和凍結，凍結要經過大院專案報告，還要能夠同意。"],["張委員啓楷：部長我問你，你已經當過金管會主委，也當過國安會秘書長，你印象中有凍結的預算後來沒有被解凍的嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：以前凍結預算都在委員會就解凍。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，你要回去查。"],["顧部長立雄：在委員會解凍。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，你嚴重被誤導了。我去查了資料，院會要求凍結以後，要到院會報告以後解凍的很多，問題是後來都解決了。"],["顧部長立雄：那我就不得不說，你舉一個例子，哪一個案子要在院會專案報告同意以後才可以解凍？你告訴我。"],["張委員啓楷：你隨便去翻，每一年都有好幾個案子，不是專案報告，部長完全弄錯了，立法院叫你去院會提專案，不見得是一定是專案報告，可是提那個報……"],["顧部長立雄：這一次……"],["張委員啓楷：聽我講完，有兩個層次，第一個是你提了一個報告來就解凍了，對不對？這個是目前你可能最希望的，連報告都不要；第二個就是你提了報告來以後，經過立法院的解凍。像昨天我就很清楚跟交通委員會講，交通委員會在去年差不多這個時候，經過一次的會議，他們解凍了31個凍結案。你已經當了金管會主委、當了秘書長……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，來，更重要的我要問你……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這邊凍結了899億，去年才凍結2億，都是在委員會提書面報告或專案報告，沒有在院會做專案報告才可以解凍。你的凍結數高達899億，其中業務費的部分應該是占了744億，要到……"],["張委員啓楷：院會是……所有部會全部凍結了30%，會單獨叫你一個國防部長去那邊報告嗎？當然是整體提出來以後，整體就處理了嘛！這很簡單，你不要想太複雜。最重要的，部長，你不是來……"],["顧部長立雄：張委員也不是院長，我不曉得院長要如何主持這個到院會專案報告啊！"],["張委員啓楷：我跟你講，往例這個解凍，只要是你解決了問題……為什麼要凍結？就是因為我每次問你們問題的時候，你們在詢答的時候，不回答問題、當木頭人不回答，對不對？我們的調查權你們也不給我們，所以是用預算權去凍結完之後叫你解決問題，重點是你如果解決問題了就解了，有沒有？最重要的，我幫王定宇打抱不平，你講那個預算被大砍，我問你，如果砍的是對的，獵鴞專案買無人機，對不對？那個原因是因為美國自己本來報給我們多少？116億，對不對？後來也是他們自己改的啊！改了55億，這個要不要刪減？連王定宇都贊成，對不對？結果變成是柯建銘出來講，所以王定宇在罵他：你認知是不是有問題？明明是美國自己的報價把它減下來，每一分錢都民脂民膏，當然要刪減！"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我們在外交及國防委員會這些都經過朝野大家……這個在外交及國防委員會大家都同意，現在主要的部分是到了院會之後，比如我一直在講的，國外旅費和訓練費用的支出，最重要就是他還寫「不得流用」，這就完蛋了！我已經坦白講，我們現在到國外協訓的這個費用……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在講的都是歷年來、立法院成立以來每一年都是這樣審議算，沒有……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有「不得流用」……"],["張委員啓楷：很多規定沒有流用的……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有「不得流用」這4個字出現過，通刪的項目裡面沒有這樣子的。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這樣好不好？我不要說要你下臺，我如果拿出來，不要講一個，如果有10次不得流用，你要不要跟全民道歉？不要講一次喔！我去舉10個例子出來，你要不要跟人民道歉？"],["顧部長立雄：通刪的項目，過去……"],["張委員啓楷：這個是立法院長久審預算的……怎麼會沒有「流用」這個字眼？這是預算法裡面明定的，每一年都這樣。部長，我問你……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有在通刪的項目裡面去講不得流用的。"],["張委員啓楷：有，不然部長，這樣好不好？我提10個，你跟全民道歉，好不好？我提10個，你跟全民道歉，OK。現在最重要的，凍結是可以解凍的，部長的責任應該是儘快提出解凍案，我們院會或者是委員會趕快通過、趕快解決。問你一個比較重要、人民關心的……"],["顧部長立雄：可是院會……"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，我問你一下，你趕快提……"],["顧部長立雄：要求我們要花費30%以上才可以去申請解凍，這又設下了一個門檻。"],["張委員啓楷：30%，現在已經3月底了，不就是差不多時間了嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有啊！那你……"],["張委員啓楷：部長做那麼久的政務官，每一年立法院都是這樣，你們不要污名化總預算，趕快……"],["顧部長立雄：我們會遵照委員的指示，儘速提出解凍案，也希望院會儘速進行解凍。"],["張委員啓楷：對，就是這樣。你來這邊是要解決問題的，不要和委員鬥嘴。本席問一個現在民眾最關心的問題，這幾天出現兩個很重要的議題，一個是義務役要從1年延長為2年，第二個是女性可能要服兵役。部長，這兩件事情有可能成真嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有。沒有任何這樣的規劃存在。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有這樣的規劃？"],["顧部長立雄：對，沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：當初的義務役是4個月，討論後變成1年，對不對？這段時間美國有沒有關心過，希望我們能自己防衛自己，把兵役延長到2年？"],["顧部長立雄：我沒有接觸過美方給我任何這樣的訊息。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你的任期應該還有3年，你能不能保證在你的任期內，義務役的役期不會從1年變成2年？"],["顧部長立雄：我怎麼知道我的任期還有多久？我是政務官，沒有一定的任期。"],["張委員啓楷：所以可以保證在你的任內，我們的義務役不會從1年變2年？可以對青年承諾嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在正在檢討1年期義務役的訓練成效，並沒有做任何有關將義務役延長為2年的規劃，也沒有女性服義務役的規劃案。"],["張委員啓楷：本席給大家看一個數據，這是國防研究院的兩篇研究報告，在2月底密集發佈的，第一篇，志願士兵甄選條件，結論是什麼？建議翔實評估女性人力服義務役政策，開發人力來源。第二篇，結論是什麼？女性服義務役是未來兵役制度改革的可行政策之一。國防研究院是國防部出資的，是官方的智庫，他們為什麼要研究這個議題？結論為什麼是女性要去服兵役？"],["顧部長立雄：國防院每個研究員都會發表自己依據認知、專業所做出的報告案，但這並不代表國防部的政策。"],["張委員啓楷：前陣子聯合報也清清楚楚的寫了一篇報導，對不對？你們也有提出一部分，要針對女性服義務役研究，沒有嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：國防部沒有做過這樣的研究。"],["張委員啓楷：好啦！部長，現在最重要的，本席剛才給你看的都是數據，是聯合報的報導，還有你們國防研究院的報告……"],["顧部長立雄：委員常常拿報導來詢問。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們做個結論，主席已經站起來了。你的任內能不能保證兵役不會從1年變成2年，女性不會服兵役？"],["顧部長立雄：國防部現在沒有任何有關女性要服義務役，以及要將義務役延長為2年的規劃。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有這方面的規劃嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：是的。"],["張委員啓楷：你的任內會不會推動義務役延長為2年？"],["顧部長立雄：我不知道我的任期有多長。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你不願意保證？"],["顧部長立雄：並沒有我可以擔任4年部長這樣的說法。"],["張委員啓楷：不是4年，是你的任內。你不願意保證嘛！現在就是你要不要保證，因為全民都在等著看，人民關心這個問題，而且現在兩岸關係這麼緊張。"],["顧部長立雄：我剛剛已經一再重複，國防部現在沒有任何女性服義務役和義務役延長為2年的規劃。"],["張委員啓楷：對，沒有規劃嘛！你願不願意保證不會推動這個議題？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在就沒有這樣的政策規劃嘛！"],["張委員啓楷：所以你的意思是不會推動嘛！對不對？你任內不會出現這兩個議題。"],["顧部長立雄：我現在沒有做過，要做也要有這樣推動的計畫規劃存在啊！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你這樣回答是在閃躲嗎？還是保證不會推動？"],["顧部長立雄：我沒有閃躲。委員，你一直在repeat。"],["主席：謝謝張委員。"],["張委員啓楷：讓全民看看部長到底是在規避回答，還是他不會推動，或是會推動，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張委員的質詢，部長先請回。","請沈伯洋委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}},{"id":"159376","url":"https://i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可是這已經公布了那麼久了那另外我再確定一下因為後來川普接受媒體的訪問突然說這個台積電會有2000億美元的投資所以大家非常的驚恐因為剛才您也回答1000億美元是白宮宣布的650億美元事實上是在拜登政府時候宣布的所以加起來1650億"},{"start":258.993,"end":275.455,"text":"可是當川普說會有兩千億美元的投資的時候一種可能就是川普碰轟他就自行的加碼另外一種是不是台積電仍然未來有可能進一步的對美國的投資包含投資英特爾"},{"start":278.119,"end":294.879,"text":"這個問題我有去了解跟公司來了解這個狀況那因為他們也表達的清楚他們對媒體的回應說這件事是不存在那他們告訴我說他們現在的態度也是依據他們對媒體的說明內容"},{"start":295.379,"end":311.657,"text":"所以川普那2000億美元是口誤或者是他自己錯誤的理解我個人的看法他應該是把台積電未來進去所做的營運的費用都放進去或者是供應鏈進去投資的費用算進來"},{"start":312.648,"end":326.622,"text":"所以基本上還是應該1000億美元再加上之前的650億但是每個公司都有營運成本會在那邊發生那每一年都會發生那這個發生舉個例子好了如果公司的毛利是40%100億在那裡就會有60億的發生那所以他會有不斷的發生加上供應鏈的投資"},{"start":330.666,"end":336.894,"text":"好最後一句話阿媛也響鈴兩次就是身為關股因為我們還是最大的股東我覺得我們還是要嚴守作為您作為董事要幫我們政府的關股來做把關好不好是的這個我一定會努力做我一定會做到好謝謝謝謝阿媛謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":603,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時36分）謝謝主席，我請劉主委。"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：王委員早。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委好。你身為台積電的董事，就是政府的法人代表，你在2月份有去美國參加台積電的董事會，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：請問一下，當天的董事會有沒有討論台積電要擴大美國投資，再增加投資1,000億美元的提案？有或沒有？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為我是台積電董事，我依法要遵守董事會會議內容的秘密。"],["王委員鴻薇：不過你是政府法人代表。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：請你能體諒，我可以用國發會的角度來看台積電，我沒辦法用董事的角度來評論台積電，否則會影響到股票市場。"],["王委員鴻薇：我現在得到的訊息是當天其實並沒有投資1,000億美元的提案，對吧？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這是董事會的公司治理和營業秘密的問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，現在講公司治理，請問一下，身為董事，你什麼時候知道台積電有擴大投資美國1,000億美元這件事？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我可以跟你肯定講這件事情，如果是什麼時候的話，我是比大家早知道。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你在3月3日白宮記者會之前知道嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：你是在董事會的時候知道嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我是跟我們上層整個政府同時知道的。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你並不是在董事會裡面知道……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：重大的事情會送到董事會。"],["王委員鴻薇：你剛才提到公司治理，因為台積電過去確實是一家公司治理非常良好的公司，但是在這個案子裡面，為什麼我今天要問這個問題，因為非常關心台積電投資的人，他們得到的資料是很確切的知道特別到美國召開的那一場董事會，並沒有這個提案，而且也沒有任何重大訊息的公告，所以担心這樣一個投資的程序是不是有違反公司治理原則？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我先跟委員報告，一般來講，公司的正統做法是會在董事會取得一個概要授權，不是細節授權，概要授權之後，當他確定之後，他會提出一個完整的計畫經過董事會核定，董事會核定之後，才會實施送件到經濟部。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是如果在董事會裡都沒有討論就直接宣布，這也就是我們外界所講的，因為我們政府一直說台積電的投資是沒有外力的，如果這是一個正常公司的重大投資，照理說應該在董事會裡面先行討論，然後對外宣布，這是不是正常的公司治理程序？如果違反這樣的程序，難怪外界會認為這有所謂的外力介入，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，我剛剛只是跟您報告我沒辦法表達董事會的內容，但是我並沒有說董事會沒有討論這件事。"],["王委員鴻薇：你作為政府法人代表，其實不應該再隱瞞，而且這件事情已經公布，他如果還沒有公布，你是基於公司治理，不能先行公布，公司沒有做重訊的公布，你怎麼可以公布，可是這已經公布了那麼久了。","另外我再確定一下，因為後來川普接受媒體訪問，突然說台積電會有2,000億美元的投資，所以大家非常驚恐，因為剛才您也回答，1,000億美元是白宮宣布的，650億美元事實上是在拜登政府時宣布的，所以加起來是1,650億。可是當川普說會有2,000億美元的投資時，一種可能就是川普「膨風」，自行加碼；另外一種是不是台積電未來仍然有可能進一步的對美國投資，包含投資Intel？。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，這個問題我有跟公司了解狀況，而他們也表達得很清楚，對媒體回應說這件事是不存在的。他們告訴我，他們現在的態度也是依據他們對媒體說明的內容。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以川普那2,000億美元是口誤或者是他自己錯誤的理解？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我個人的看法是，他應該是把台積電未來進去所做的營運費用都放進去，或者是把供應鏈投資的費用也算進來。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以基本上還是應該1,000億美元，再加上之前的650億？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，但是每個公司都會有營運成本，每一年成本都會在那邊發生，舉例來說，如果公司的毛利是40%，100億在那裡就會有60億營運成本的發生，所以成本會不斷的發生，加上供應鏈的投資。"],["王委員鴻薇：最後一句話，因為已響鈴兩次了。就是身為官股，因為我們還是最大的股東，我覺得我們還是要嚴守，您作為董事，要幫政府的官股來把關，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，這個我一定會努力，我一定會做到。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，我們現在請賴瑞隆委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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目前是沒有對 我聽起來川普是蠻滿意的他說史上最大的投資之一啦所以短期內不太應當我判斷不會再有第二次 第三次的要求啦那我覺得這個所謂護國神山啦神這個意思是什麼意思神這個意思是永生不滅這樣都沒辦法啦那神的地位啊 怎麼樣都不會被改變"},{"start":87.827,"end":107.073,"text":"但是我們不能do nothing要do something所以國際基金作為這個台積電的大股東之一當然把先進製程把核心技術留在台灣這是最基本的對不對所以研發中心也要在台灣這個也是魏董事長的承諾"},{"start":109.256,"end":130.274,"text":"他這個必須要跟流台灣所以這種情況之下這包括他的這個先進製程包括先進封測先進封裝這個部分他們都應當會留在台灣最近這個南方的大南方新矽谷的計畫大概是國安會在主導"},{"start":131.592,"end":149.119,"text":"還是經濟部是國科會 我們協助國科會主導但是你們做一個整合我們做整體大規劃所以大南方新矽谷要從這個台南甚至乎嘉義到高雄到屏東那核心就是在沙崙台南沙崙跟高雄的鹿竹鹿竹橋頭兩個地方所以橋頭這個"},{"start":152.2,"end":177.365,"text":"科學園區您去過嗎?我沒有去過有空去看一下,我可以導覽因為我每天都在尋那個科學園區旁邊有一個白浦產業園區白浦產業園區在哪裡?在橋頭跟岡山的交界離兩個交流道,還有兩個交流道我先爭取一個第二交流道有兩個交流道交通方便,又捷運通過"},{"start":178.938,"end":199.07,"text":"又大概有80公頃的這個基地用水沒有問題 還有兩座再生水場 也是我爭取的用電也沒有問題 興達火力 興達這個發電廠所以這個最好的區位 我覺得啊先進封裝這部分是不是可以設在這個百五產業園區"},{"start":201.019,"end":223.817,"text":"這需要這我可以我可以待會反應因為這個市場的需求是非常巨大因為你是大股東嘛大股東覺得這個未來公司的營運你們也可以表示意見嘛所以我是期待說這個是不是可以請這個主委你這個以大股東的身份是不是跟台積電能夠建議或者您可以去看一下看我說的是不是真的因為詳細的這個計畫已經這個準備很久了"},{"start":230.747,"end":239.525,"text":"這等國安會推吧再等這個台積電來拍板我們定期有這樣的會議才會真正落實大南方新矽谷的計畫"},{"start":242.781,"end":261.982,"text":"主委這件事情再有勞您了這個也跟委員報告這是由國客會在主導我們定期我是看到您是大股東的角度我們定期跟台積電有會議去協助台積電準備這個生產的需求務必傳達高雄市政府的意願務必傳達大南方矽谷"},{"start":264.764,"end":272.191,"text":"這個所謂高雄市民的這個共同的心聲沒問題的因為相關的主管都會在那個會議出現我會在那個會議提出來第二個問題請教這個興達海洋科學園區有位企業家"},{"start":279.546,"end":298.064,"text":"鴻基的創辦人對這個區位他覺得非常好評貴非常好新達海洋科學園區目前有一定的基礎以前它是一個要試圖做遠洋漁港後來沒有成功現在變成一個捕撈的漁港"},{"start":299.69,"end":320.023,"text":"那如果有海洋科學園區的進駐在現有的規模之下我覺得發展會比其他區域會更好我也期待主委你可以去下山看一下這個施政榮先生有跟我提過一次因為我最了解我這十幾年"},{"start":321.244,"end":331.853,"text":"十幾年我在新大怎麼樣讓新大海洋科學園區啊能夠成型我們現在有一定的基礎金屬中心包括能源署他的山中心都在那邊然後這個船舶的設計也在那邊"},{"start":338.038,"end":362.615,"text":"所以已經有過去還有這個新達海基還有離岸風電所以這個部分負力也夠但是需要這個中央大力的支持所以有機會我也會跟總統來反映或跟行政院長來反映所以國安會扮演一個整合者的角度他的交通運輸你知道潛力嗎我知道"},{"start":366.917,"end":393.019,"text":"相對的交通的效率沒那麼好但是我們決定紅線開到湖內大概也要六七年園區的開發怎麼樣做整體性的開發產業政策要怎麼配合法規要怎麼配合怎麼跟民間的企業包括施政榮先生的紅基金公司來合作我覺得要有一個平台國安會辦理這個平台最好"},{"start":394.15,"end":407.999,"text":"是不是可以請國安會召集相關單位也召集這個私部門這些民間企業來共同怎麼催生來達成新達海洋科學園區的建置"},{"start":408.959,"end":432.37,"text":"做一個平台開一次會議這個是在大南方新矽谷的這個範疇內我們會找國科會一起來努力達成一個月之內把這個會議把它召開就由國安會來做一個統籌因為國家的重大建設需要國安會來做一個統合的角色而且你又是政委"},{"start":434.517,"end":455.459,"text":"你又雙城市委你又是政委 政委就負責協調嘛所以我期待我在這邊拜託這個主委是不是由國發會來主責一個月之內召開跨部會協調會議怎麼樣把這個藍圖把這個路徑都把它這個研立出來我這邊我會找國科會我們一起來規劃一下看看"},{"start":457.376,"end":476.745,"text":"這個怎麼樣去實現委員招待的事這是一個月之內我拜託你好不好這個國家的產業政策要落實這件事要跟時間賽跑我也很急啊好的那第三個問題就是說這個產業失衡那這個我選區都是傳產鋼鐵啦扣件甚至有石化那傳產"},{"start":479.847,"end":503.737,"text":"這幾年跟半導體比較起來,半導體把台灣的股票市場支撐起來但是傳產的,比方說台塑、世保,它的股價都腰斬在腰斬不只是這樣,它指標型的企業都是這樣子,那何況其他的中小型的,比方說金屬扣件我聽到聲音說,政府好像把資源都放在半導體"},{"start":505.151,"end":528.829,"text":"但是他們可能不了解我們政府也對傳統產業重視但我要提醒主委是說這個傳產的混淨是發生在中南部中南部啊這個他們的心聲就是共同心聲說大家好像沒有一個有效的對策來針對這個傳統產業傳產業分別有很多傳統的製造業傳統的服務業"},{"start":535.087,"end":559.177,"text":"我也跟行政院長也討論過這部分需要有一個很完整的如何提振傳統產業要一個完整的計畫我知道行政院有但是要怎麼去落實這個才是最重要的所以主委你覺得傳統產業要怎麼樣面對這些危機那政府該做哪些事情提供哪些協助"},{"start":561.765,"end":578.086,"text":"這個我跟這個我會找經濟部我覺得委員的意見也很好我們看看能不能協助經濟部我們進行這個跨部會整合的來討論這件事情那我也會盡快給您一個報告林森想兩次通常不會讓林森想兩次"},{"start":580.755,"end":589.458,"text":"這個問題太重要了希望主委我提了請教您幾個問題希望主委能夠有立即性的好 這個我會來處理謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":556,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時26分）謝謝主席，有請國發會主委。"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：邱委員早。"],["邱委員志偉：主委，你好。本席要請教幾個問題，台積電在美國初步投資1,000億美金，川普總統說是1,600億，到底最後投資的數目是多少？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：原來投資了650億，然後再加碼1,000億。"],["邱委員志偉：所以是加上原來的。新公布的是1,000億，加起來就是1,650億？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：後面還會不會有第二次或第三次的要求？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就我得到的訊息，目前是沒有。"],["邱委員志偉：對！我聽起來川普是蠻滿意的，他說是史上最大的投資之一。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我判斷短期內應當不會再有第二次、第三次的要求。我覺得所謂護國神山，「神」是什麼意思？神是永生不滅，怎麼樣都不會倒！神的地位怎麼樣都不會被改變，但是我們不能do nothing，而是要do something。國發基金做為台積電的大股東之一，把先進製程、核心技術留在臺灣當然是最基本的，對不對？所以研發中心也要留在臺灣，這也是魏董事長的承諾。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["邱委員志偉：它必須要根留臺灣，所以在這種情況之下，包括它的先進製程和先進封測、先進封裝都應當會留在臺灣。","最近的大南方新矽谷計畫大概是國發會在主導嘛！還是經濟部？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是國科會。我們協助、國科會主導；我們是做整體大規劃。"],["邱委員志偉：大南方新矽谷要從嘉義、臺南到高雄、屏東，核心在臺南的沙崙和高雄的路竹……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，路竹、橋頭兩個地方。"],["邱委員志偉：橋頭科學園區您去過嘛？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒有去過耶！"],["邱委員志偉：有空去看一下，我可以導覽，因為我每天都在巡那個科學園區。它旁邊有一個白埔產業園區。白埔產業園區在哪裡？在橋頭和岡山交界。它有兩個交流道，我先爭取了一個第二交流道，有兩個交流道、交通方便，又有捷運通過，基地大約80公頃，用水沒有問題，它有兩座再生水廠，也是我爭取的，用電也沒有問題，有興達發電廠，所以這是最好的區位。我覺得先進封裝這個部分是不是可以設在白埔產業園區？這是最需要的！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這件事情我可以代為反映，因為這個市場需求是非常巨大的。"],["邱委員志偉：因為國發會是大股東，大股東對於未來公司的營運也可以表示意見，所以我是期待這個部分是不是請主委以大股東的身分跟台積電建議，或者你可以去看一下，看看我說的是不是真的，因為詳細的計畫已經準備很久了，就等國發會推一把，再等台積電來拍板，才會真正落實大南方新矽谷計畫。主委，這件事情就有勞你了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：也跟委員報告，這是由國科會主導，我們定期的追蹤。"],["邱委員志偉：我是看你是大股東的角度。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們定期跟台積電有會議去協助台積電準備各個生產的需求。"],["邱委員志偉：務必傳達我的想法，務必傳達高雄市政府的意願，務必傳達大南方矽谷高雄市民共同的心聲。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒問題，相關的主管都會在那個會議出現，我會在那個會議提出來。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝主委。第二個問題，興達海洋科學園區，宏碁的創辦人覺得這個區位非常好，評估也非常好，興達海洋科學園區目前有一定的基礎，以前試圖做遠洋漁港，後來沒有成功，現在變成一個捕撈的漁港，如果有海洋科學園區的進駐，在現有的規模之下，我覺得發展會比其他的區位更好，我也期待主委可以下鄉去看一下。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：施振榮先生有跟我提過一次。"],["邱委員志偉：對，因為我最了解，這十幾年來，怎樣讓興達海洋科學園區能夠成形，我們現在有一定的基礎……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：他非常看好。"],["邱委員志偉：金屬中心，包括能源署的三中心就在那邊，船舶的設計也在那邊，過去還有興達海基的離岸風電，這個部分腹地也夠，但是需要中央大力的支持，有機會我也會跟總統反映、跟行政院長反映，國發會扮演一個整合者的角度，它的交通運輸，你知道茄萣嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我知道。"],["邱委員志偉：相對的交通效率沒那麼好，捷運紅線開到湖內大概也要六、七年，園區要怎樣做整體性的開發、產業政策要怎麼配合、法規面要怎麼配合，怎麼跟民間的企業包括施振榮先生的宏碁公司來合作，我覺得要有一個平臺，國發會扮演這個平臺最好，是不是可以請國發會召集相關單位，也召集私部門這些民間企業，共同來催生、達成興達海洋科學園區的建置，做一個平臺、開一次會議？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這是在大南方新矽谷的範疇內，我們會找國科會一起來努力達成委員期待的。"],["邱委員志偉：一個月之內把這個會議召開，由國發會統籌，因為國家重大的建設需要國發會做統合者的角色，而且你又有雙重身分，你又是政委，政委就是負責協調，我期待也拜託主委，是不是由國發會來主責，一個月之內召開跨部會協調會議，怎樣把這個藍圖、路徑研議出來？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我會找國科會一起來規劃，看看怎樣去實現委員交代的事。"],["邱委員志偉：一個月之內，我拜託你，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["邱委員志偉：國家的產業政策要落實，真的是要跟時間賽跑，我也很急。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["邱委員志偉：第三個問題是產業失衡，我的選區都是傳產，鋼鐵、扣件，甚至有石化，傳產這幾年跟半導體比較起來，半導體把臺灣的股票市場支撐起來，但是傳產的部分，例如臺塑四寶，它的股價腰斬再腰斬，指標型的企業都這樣子，更何況其他的中小企業，例如金屬扣件，我聽到一種聲音說政府好像把資源都放在半導體，他們可能不了解政府對傳統產業也很重視，我要提醒主委，傳產的困境是發生在中南部，中南部的共同心聲就是大家好像沒有一個有效的對策來針對傳統產業，傳統產業分門別類很多，傳統的製造業、傳統的服務業，我也跟行政院長討論過，如何提振傳統產業需要一個很完整的計畫，我知道行政院有，但是要怎樣去落實才是最重要的。主委，你覺得傳統產業要怎樣面對這些危機？政府該做哪些事情？提供哪些協助？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我會找經濟部，我覺得委員的意見很好，我們看看能不能協助經濟部進行跨部會整合的來討論這件事情，我也會儘快給你一個報告。"],["邱委員志偉：因為鈴聲響兩次了，通常我不會讓鈴聲響兩次，但這個問題太重要了，我提的幾個問題，希望主委能夠有立即性的相關作為，謝謝主委，謝謝主席。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我會來處理。"],["主席：現在請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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在臺委員先進 列席了政府金融署長 官員 會長 公眾夥伴 媒體 記者 女士先生有請顧部長 跟軍備局鄰居長 和國防採購室的趙中將有請部長 軍備 還有採購 謝謝社中委喔"},{"start":19.366,"end":37.171,"text":"部長好 兩位局長主任好 我的題目呢 軍工產業自治優先 外購為輔 調整採購的條件 打造自主量能第一個請教一下 五大信賴產業 軍事工業是不是其中之一是好 所以我們在軍事工業上 我們要打造我們國防產業自主的能量跟量能 是這樣嗎"},{"start":38.857,"end":65.989,"text":"是嗎是好 那我們來看一下在今年公布的四年級國防總監的當中也明白地寫出了這些國防自主跟多元化武護包括國防法第22條要自治為優先建立獨立自主的國防建設沒錯吧是我們國防產業發展條例第一條要國內研發產製武器裝備還有後勤資源我們常常以為先進武器要外國採購忽略了後勤資源正是我們優先可以自己產製的項目是不是這樣"},{"start":67.928,"end":80.639,"text":"所以我們要透過國防產業發展條例第四條第二項創造國內產值跟製造國內的就業機會好 我們來看一下部長一般的產業跟軍工產業有什麼差別呢一般產業會尋求全球分工"},{"start":82.047,"end":104.102,"text":"國際市場規模最大化所以需求跟採購會尋求價格最低對外採購但是軍事工業他希望是短鏈供應以國內市場為優先同時暫時要能夠自力生產追求的是供應不中斷所以部長是不是我們的廣場採購跟一般的民間採購追求價格最低的採購是不一樣的我們要求的是要求供應不中斷比較重要是不是這樣"},{"start":105.067,"end":127.639,"text":"對,比如說我們的現在中科院所建立的飛彈自製的產業,那以後無人機的產業,這樣的我們也要自主能夠…聽到飛彈,聽到無人機都覺得很科技,我講一個不是很科技的,但是大家都熟,網路上我們有一種叫精藥,很多人要進去,發行者可以發行,每個人的精藥都不一樣,因為是數位製作嘛,我隨時可以調整你的權限,"},{"start":128.74,"end":155.56,"text":"但是實體上我們生活中有很多類似禁藥的東西叫鑰匙 鎖我不知道部長有沒有搭過台鐵或高鐵那個列車長要開門有把鑰匙你覺得他每列車的鑰匙都不一樣嗎其實每列車都一樣甚至台鐵更好玩他不只開門用那把鑰匙電器箱的鎖都是用同一把鑰匙這樣子為了節約他只要避開一些閒雜任人去碰他的電器箱但是你認為我們國軍的軍械庫可以用這種方式嗎"},{"start":156.616,"end":180.658,"text":"可以用這樣子嗎?一把鑰匙可以開所有的軍械庫,你就可能嗎?應該是不行不行,對好,我們看下一頁其實呢,我幾十年前當兵的時候,當安全士官我們交界,交界一大串鑰匙我很好奇啊,前面的安全士官如果把鑰匙拷貝了後面的人被人偷開了,責任是誰?責任分不清楚所以在美國的美軍呢,他們早就採用了上世紀的一個構想叫做什麼?"},{"start":182.353,"end":201.04,"text":"鎖心跟鎖頭分開什麼意思每個掛在軍械箱的鎖頭是固定的但是每個軍械是交接的時候我是連鎖心跟鑰匙我帶我自己的鎖心放進去所以責任很清楚聽起來很簡單的概念美軍大量採用我很好奇的知道這個事情為什麼"},{"start":202.165,"end":227.723,"text":"因為美軍的最大供應商是我們台灣的製索公司啊我問他說 那我們台灣有沒有採用啊他說採用也好 不採用也罷反正我是對他來講訂單他不在意國內的這個訂單所以我這裡今天不是要幫他做請求國防部的採購我要告訴他說 像這種很簡單的東西的軍需採購台灣是有能力供應的但是另外一個東西不一樣 我們來看一下防彈衣"},{"start":228.644,"end":250.66,"text":"防彈液它主要來自於克維拉或是超高分子的聚酰所做成的它的結構是來自於它的受限來自於它每一層疊疊要用膠去合膠的壽命大概四五年所以防彈液每四五年要全部更新不然沒有防彈的效果部長這知道嗎問一下你們的軍需兩位局長主任是不是這樣子"},{"start":251.36,"end":252.9,"text":"其實大家會想說如果這個防彈液可以用五年"},{"start":272.401,"end":281.516,"text":"二十萬件我五年採購一次二十萬件最便宜嘛一次採購二十萬件最便宜嘛但是當這個量的時候呢國際廠商拿不到單國內剛開始起步的廠商拿不到單"},{"start":285.439,"end":313.552,"text":"為什麼 他沒有辦法一次供應20萬件但是你叫他一年供應4、5萬件 供應得了所以我要說的是什麼 往下看一個我們的軍需的 平站的轉換你平時它是個消耗品 你可能剛好有量換發可是暫時的時候你需要大量生產但是暫時如果你沒辦法得到原料 進不來你要靠本土的軍需產業來供應 是不是這樣子所以平時的時候 我們就要開始去維持製造我們國內製造商的產量跟產能怎麼做 我們看一下"},{"start":314.312,"end":336.448,"text":"如果說我們未來的軍需採購你調整你不是以獲得價格最低量最大的目標你去思考怎麼樣我們每一年防彈液的採購如果你改成每年採購五分之一或四分之一國內的廠商就有機會了部長你這樣了解我的意思沒有我們要培養國內的本土軍需產業不是只有在功能技術上去要求它"},{"start":337.068,"end":352.525,"text":"有時候你們的採購條件不同也會造成他有沒有辦法生存部長您覺得未來的軍需採購如果說這個技術是國內的廠商有能力的只是受限於我們採購的數量規格以至他們有辦法供應你們要不要檢討"},{"start":355.071,"end":374.224,"text":"我想如果說國內有這樣子的一個自主生產因為我們軍備局的部分本身也有生殖中心軍備局要再生產防彈衣嗎跟委員報告剛剛委員的指導我們都有考量我們當初我們的抗彈板就是考量要給國內生產"},{"start":375.785,"end":380.448,"text":"對 那我們有分國內 我們有調查國內的產能所以我們這次絕標 抗氮板的陶瓷片是國內占60% 國外進口占40%那歐斯採取長約 我們是2加1年讓國內的廠商可以投資錢下去我們會增強我們暫時國外進口沒辦法進來 我們國內的韌性我們都是用這樣的方式去做考量的 以上報告"},{"start":398.838,"end":415.918,"text":"謝謝部長 我最後一點時間跟主席戰略一下其實呢 講到防彈 大家知道防彈衣其實未來的軍需供應上它主要是抗彈板呢 是用在裝備防護上哪一種裝備要防護 油箱其實大部分我們的無人機 無人船它未來的防護呢 就是用這種方式去組成"},{"start":416.599,"end":436.604,"text":"所以我卻說以防彈材質的這個產業來思考請 最後的結論 因為主席站起來了請研議各項軍民採購要考量本土產業現況並透過調適我們國防採購的規模以扶植本土產業進入台灣的軍需供應鏈為方案這樣的思考可以來擬定給本席一個說明嗎"},{"start":437.52,"end":454.414,"text":"好 我們想大概委員的意思應該就是說建立一個比較長單的一個 汐水長流的長單但是這裡面我要強調的台灣有很多隱形冠軍誰知道美軍用的這個鎖呢是台灣的廠商做最大供應商"},{"start":455.615,"end":469.703,"text":"所以但是有些的台灣的本身的供應商他正在起步所以你們的採購規格要能夠扶植本土產業我指這個目的可以嗎好我們來跟事後跟委員來做一個說明好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":518,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時24分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請顧部長、軍備局林局長和國防採購室的趙中將。"],["主席：請部長、軍備局還有採購室，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好，兩位局長、主任好。我的題目是軍工產業自製優先、外購為輔，調整採購的條件，打造自主量能，第一個請教一下，五大信賴產業，軍事工業是不是其中之一？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我們在軍事工業上要打造國防產業自主的能量跟量能，是這樣嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們來看一下，在今年公布的四年期國防總檢討當中也明白的寫出這些國防自主跟多元化武獲，包括國防法第二十二條要自製為優先，建立獨立自主的國防建設，沒錯吧？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們國防產業發展條例第一條要國內研發產製武器裝備，還有後勤支援，我們常常以為先進武器要跟外國採購，忽略了後勤支援正是我們可以優先自己產製的項目，是不是這樣？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們要透過國防產業發展條例第四條第二項，創造國內產值跟製造國內的就業機會。部長，一般產業跟軍工產業有什麼差別呢？一般產業會尋求全球分工、國際市場規模最大化，所以需求跟對外採購會尋求價格最低，但是軍事工業希望短鏈供應，以國內市場為優先，同時戰時要能夠自力生產，追求的是供應不中斷，所以，部長，我們的國防採購跟一般的民間追求價格最低的採購是不一樣的？我們要求的是供應不中斷比較重要，是不是這樣？"],["顧部長立雄：對，譬如現在中科院所建立的飛彈自製能量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的。"],["顧部長立雄：以後無人機的產業我們也要自主……"],["鍾委員佳濱：聽到飛彈、聽到無人機都覺得很科技，我講一個不是很科技的，但大家都熟，網路上有一種東西叫做金鑰，很多人要進去，發行者發行金鑰可以每個人的都不一樣，因為是數位製作嘛，隨時可以調整你的權限，但是實體上，我們生活中有很多類似金鑰的東西，叫做鑰匙、鎖。我不知道部長有沒有搭過臺鐵或高鐵，列車長要開門有一把鑰匙，你覺得每班列車的鑰匙都不一樣嗎？其實每班列車都一樣，甚至臺鐵更好玩，不只開門用那把鑰匙，電器箱的鎖都是用同一把鑰匙，這是為了節約，他只要避開一些閒雜人等去碰電器箱。但是你認為我們國軍的軍械庫可以用這種方式嗎？一把鑰匙可以開所有的軍械庫，你覺得可能嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：應該是不行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不行，對。其實我幾十年前當兵的時候當安全士官，我們交接的時候要交接一大串鑰匙，我很好奇前面的安全士官如果把鑰匙拷貝了，後面的人被人偷開了，責任在誰？責任分不清楚。所以在美軍早就採用上世紀的一個構想，叫做鎖心跟鎖頭分開，什麼意思？每個掛在軍械箱的鎖頭是固定的，但是每個軍械士交接的時候，是帶自己的鎖心放進去，所以責任很清楚。聽起來很簡單的概念，美軍大量採用，我很好奇的知道這個事情，為什麼？因為美軍的最大供應商是我們臺灣的製鎖公司。我問他說，那我們臺灣有沒有採用啊？他說，採用也好，不採用也罷，反正對他來講，他不在意國內的訂單。我今天在這裡不是要幫他請求國防部的採購，我要告訴大家的是，像這種很簡單的軍需採購，臺灣是有能力供應的。但是另外一個東西不一樣，我們看一下防彈衣，防彈衣主要是由克維拉或者超高分子的聚乙烯做成的，它的結構是每一層要用膠去合，膠的壽命大概4、5年，所以防彈衣每4、5年要全部更新，不然就沒有防彈的效果。部長，你知道嗎？問一下你們軍需的兩位首長，是不是這樣子？知道嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我請軍備局說明。"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，委員對於這個的了解很透徹，我們的5年沒有錯，那5年完之後……"],["鍾委員佳濱：全部再採購換新嘛！"],["林局長文祥：沒有，監查測試，我們會抽，然後逐年來做一個比例的更換。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，我了解。其實大家會想說如果這防彈衣可以用5年，假設5年採購一次20萬件，一次採購20萬件最便宜嘛，但是如果是這個量的時候，國際廠商拿得到單，國內剛開始起步的廠商拿不到單，為什麼？因為他沒有辦法一次供應20萬件，但你叫他一年供應4、5萬件，供應得了。所以我要說的是我們軍需的平戰轉換，平時它是個消耗品，你可能剛剛好有量換發，可是戰時的時候需要大量生產，但是戰時如果沒辦法得到原料，原料進不來，你要靠本土的軍需產業來供應，是不是？所以平時的時候，我們就要開始去維持國內製造商的產量跟產能。怎麼做？我們看一下，如果我們未來的軍需採購調整為不以獲得價格最低、量最大為目標，你去思考我們每一年防彈衣的採購如果改成五分之一或四分之一，國內的廠商就有機會了。部長了解我的意思沒有？我們要培養國內的本土軍需產業，不是只有在功能、技術上去要求他，有時候你們的採購條件不同，也會造成他有沒有辦法生存。部長覺得，未來的軍需採購，如果這個技術是國內廠商有能力的，只是受限於我們採購的數量規格，以致他們沒辦法供應，你們要不要檢討？"],["顧部長立雄：如果國內有這樣子的自主生產，因為我們軍備局本身也有生製中心，所以我想……"],["鍾委員佳濱：軍備局要再生產防彈衣嗎？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，剛剛委員的指導我們都有考量，當初我們的抗彈板就是考量要給國內生產，我們有分國內、有調查國內的產能，所以我們這次決標，抗彈板的陶瓷片是國內占60%……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。"],["林局長文祥：國外進口占40%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你們的需求量呢？"],["林局長文祥：然後是採取長約，我們是二加一年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：細水長流。"],["林局長文祥：讓國內的廠商可以投資錢下去，我們會增強戰時國外進口沒辦法進來時國內的韌性，我們都是用這樣的方式去做考量的，以上報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。部長，最後我跟主席占用一下時間，講到防彈，大家都想到防彈衣，其實未來的軍需供應上，主要是抗彈板，用在裝備防護上，哪一種裝備要防護？油箱，大部分無人機、無人船，它未來的防護就是用這種方式組成，所以我說以防彈材質的這個產業來思考。","最後的結論，因為主席站起來了，請研議「各項軍品採購考量本土產業現況，並透過調適國防採購規模以扶植本土產業進入臺灣軍工供應鏈」之方案，這樣的思考可以來擬定，然後給本席一個說明嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：好，大概委員的意思應該就是建立一個比較長單的一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：細水長流的長單。但是這裡面我要強調，臺灣有很多隱形冠軍，誰知道美軍用的這個鎖，臺灣廠商是最大供應商？但是有些臺灣本身的供應商正在起步，所以你們的採購規格要能夠扶植本土產業，我只是這個目的，可以嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：好，我們事後跟委員做一個說明。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員俊宇代）：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢，部長先請回。","繼續我們邀請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","那我們請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}},{"id":"159373","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159373","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8b4476a988319f274061b2f31bc5c916a9ba850061ce77509896b02f461641f995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"10:38:12 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都可以用一種完善的設備來培育"},{"start":126.482,"end":146.56,"text":"我們未來這些人才不管在消防檢查也好才會更加的落實讓我們可以說遇到淪陷的災害發生大家都能有一個非常完善的應變能力是不是說在我們的消防學校這個部分我們要如何共同來研究共同來推動我認為這是最正確的"},{"start":149.517,"end":152.1,"text":"我們目前消防署的訓練中心是全世界第三大"},{"start":166.92,"end":195.612,"text":"但是我們的編制只有36位同仁所以表示說我們的場地的訓練是夠但是我們的這個包括行政教官的人力我們還需要大幅度的一個增加那這部分可能也需要大院跟行政院一起來支持那關於剛剛委員所垂詢的消防學校那他的未來我們在訓練中心是不是能夠轉型那他的細節我是不是可以請署長來做回應"},{"start":196.192,"end":223.567,"text":"好的 次長我先跟你報告因為我們的消防 消防他們都寄託在我們的警察學校還有我們的警官學校但是因為他們的專業性質跟我們又不一樣因為我們要面臨的有水庫車 化學車一些大型的演練場所所以說這真的是急迫性來請書長來"},{"start":226.537,"end":245.315,"text":"感謝委員一直關心我們消防學校的進度那給委員報告說某些年訓練就是正級班特考班那某些年正級班的學生本來理論上是兩年在警專事實上現在今年開始已經在一年在訓練中心所以幾乎有一大半的時間在訓練中心做這方面的培訓"},{"start":246.316,"end":268.938,"text":"這些能量跟特卡班的能量已經達到一次所以首先要為我們做報告警大的學生大概也會朝這個方向來做努力要不成立消防學校之前在學校養成教育這些學生讓他的能量事實上已經達到我們要成為消防人員的基本救災能量這個首先跟委員報告這是第一個階段"},{"start":269.759,"end":293.952,"text":"那第二階段就是這樣一個配合以後因為警專有消防安全科不是說警專就沒有消防安全科有消防安全科警大有消防系那系跟科這邊我們怎麼樣跟他做合作後面是不是能夠朝向整個制度朝向消防學校的發展這個就是我們正在規劃就怎麼一步一步達到"},{"start":295.672,"end":322.186,"text":"委員期待的這個目標當然最終的目標是達到一個專責的消防學校那在消防署訓練中心的目前規模設備包括今年6月的時候我們要擴大第二階段完工業再啟用到時候我們特別邀請召委跟委員能夠歷年到訓練中心來跟我們知道那時候的規模跟訓練跟教室跟訓練場這又不一樣的一個情形大概已經朝向這個委員期待的目標來進行謝謝"},{"start":323.857,"end":351.051,"text":"署長剛剛我們的次長所講我們是全世界第三大我們的人員才三十幾個那你說你在警專學校也好警大學校也好在那邊培訓你人員行政人員那麼少專業人員你一些教官教官也那麼少你要怎樣去培育我們這些優秀的消防人員然後我們還有義消"},{"start":353.291,"end":359.404,"text":"還有我們黃仙還有我們的志光所以你看現在連那個搜救隊"},{"start":361.582,"end":386.178,"text":"會歸類在我們消防署裡面在各縣市的消防局你看這麼多的民間團體他們要有一個非常適合的場地來做訓練你一個你消防學校你一成立當然你人員經費你才會充裕啊不然你三十幾個你光是世界第三大那沒有用啊對不對"},{"start":387.102,"end":411.078,"text":"是感謝委員在還沒到位之前其實縣市真的很幫忙就縣市我們訓練縣市的教官來當成我們訓練中心的教官這個目前已經在做所以目前這麼多的訓練量就是縣市的在此同仁我們培養成教官以後一方面他來訓練中心支援一方面他回到縣市以後也可以把這個技術在縣市來擴大來作業"},{"start":417.322,"end":446.233,"text":"真的一個學校出來然後整個有憲政人力教官教授這方面人力因為如果說真的要成立消防學校絕對跟警專的消防科跟警大的消防系這個絕對要一起考量這個變成機關間的互動跟組織編制的一個重新調整我們大概有初步的一個構想跟規劃我們再找時間跟委員報告一下我們再來朝這個方向來努力好的 署長我們都期待啦"},{"start":446.753,"end":455.143,"text":"不要說每次問都是我們來規劃但是我們還是要有一個時辰因為這是我們的必要性好不好好 感謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":460,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（10時38分）主席、與會同仁。請馬次長，以及消防署署長。"],["馬次長士元：委員早安。"],["吳委員琪銘：早。次長，針對我們今天討論的災害防救法，本席跟你共同來檢討。我們曾經有很多重大事故發生，像高雄之前發生地下氣爆，它的管線是全國裡面比例最高的，但是你們要怎樣去複查這些管線，讓未來不要再有同樣的事情發生；像前一陣子臺中的三越百貨也是造成爆炸事件，最終還是需要我們的專業訓練、專業培育。","過去本席就時常要求消防署、內政部要推動我們的消防學校，消防學校的重要性是如何？我們有那麼多消防人員，尤其還附帶義消人員、防宣人員，以及志工人員，那麼多團體，都配屬在消防體系裡面，但是我們遇到一個問題，就是沒有一間很傳統的學校。如果我們有消防學校，不管遇到化學用品，不管在災害的勘查，不管遇到任何的重大事故，像地震造成的危害，種種的天然災害也好，以及面臨的問題，我們都可以有一間完善設備的學校來培育未來的這些人才，在消防檢查也好，在其他的災防任務也好，才會更加的落實，讓我們遇到任何的災害發生都能有非常完善的應變能力。在消防學校這個部分，我們要怎麼共同來研究、共同來推動？我認為這是最正確的。","沒關係，不然，署長回答，署長比較了解。"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我先做一個初步的回應，目前消防署的訓練中心是全世界第三大，但是我們的編制只有36位同仁，表示我們場地的訓能是夠，但是我們的人力，包括行政、教官，還需要大幅度的增加，這個部分可能也須要大院及行政院一起來支持。關於剛剛委員所垂詢的消防學校，未來我們的訓練中心是不是能夠轉型，細節我是不是可以請署長來做回應？"],["吳委員琪銘：好的。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員琪銘：次長，我先跟你報告，因為我們的消防都寄託在警察學校，還有警官學校，但是他們的專業性質跟警察的又不一樣，因為我們面臨的有水庫車、化學車、一些大型的演練場所，所以這個真的有急迫性。請署長回答。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員一直關心我們消防學校的進度。跟委員報告，目前我們的訓練就是正期班、特考班，正期班的學生理論上本來是2年在警專，事實上，今年開始已經1年在訓練中心，所以幾乎有一大半的時間在訓練中心做這方面的培訓，他的能量與特考班的能量是已經達到一致，這是首先跟委員報告的。對警大的學生，也會朝這個方向來做努力，在還沒有成立消防學校之前，我們讓在學校養成教育的這些學生，事實上已經達到成為消防人員的基本救災能量，這個首先跟委員報告，這是第一個階段。","第二個階段就是這樣配合以後，因為警專有消防安全科，不是警專就沒有消防安全科，他們有消防安全科，警大有消防系，系和科，我們怎麼樣跟他們合作，目前已經有很深切的合作，後面是不是能夠整個制度朝向消防學校的發展，這個就是我們正在規劃的，就是怎麼一步一步達到委員期待的這個目標，當然最終的目標是達到一個專責的消防學校。","目前我們消防署訓練中心的規模設備，包括今年6月20日的擴大第二階段完工又再啟用，到時候我們會特別邀請召委及委員能夠蒞臨訓練中心給我們指導，那時候的規模、訓練、教室及訓練場又是不一樣的情境，大概已經朝向委員期待的這個目標來進行。謝謝。"],["吳委員琪銘：署長，剛剛次長所講，我們是全世界第三大，但是人員才三十幾個，你說警專學校也好，警大學校也好，在那邊培訓，但是我們的行政人員那麼少，專業人員（像教官）也那麼少，要怎樣去培育這些優秀的消防人員？何況還有義消，還有防宣，還有志工，現在連搜救隊也歸類在消防署裡面，在各縣市的消防局，這麼多的民間團體，要有一個非常適合的場地來做訓練，消防學校一旦成立，人員、經費當然才會充裕，不然，才三十幾個人，光是世界第三大，也沒有用，對不對？"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員，在還沒到位之前，其實縣市真的很幫忙，就是我們訓練縣市的教官來當成我們訓練中心的教官，這個目前已經在做，所以目前這麼多的訓練量，就是縣市的在職同仁，我們培養成教官以後，一方面他來訓練中心支援，一方面他回到縣市以後，也可以把這個技術在縣市來擴大作業，目前是先做到這樣。當然委員會期待真的一個學校出來，整個有行政、教官、教授這方面的人力，如果真的要成立消防學校，絕對跟警專的消防科跟警大的消防系要一起考量。"],["吳委員琪銘：對。"],["蕭署長煥章：這個變成是機關間的互動跟組織編制的重新調整，我們大概有一個初步的構想跟規劃，後續我們再找時間跟委員報告一下，我們再朝這個方向來努力，謝謝。"],["吳委員琪銘：好的，署長，我們都期待啦！"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員。"],["吳委員琪銘：不要每次問都回我們在規劃……"],["蕭署長煥章：沒有啦！已經出來了。"],["吳委員琪銘：但是你們還是要有一個時程，因為這是我們的必要性，好不好？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：謝謝。鄭天財、鄭天財，鄭天財委員不在。","我們請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-4","speakers":["張宏陸","丁學忠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","李柏毅","王美惠","黃建賓","許宇甄","楊瓊瓔","吳琪銘","黃捷","徐欣瑩","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「災害防救法第三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n「災害防救法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「災害防救法第二\n十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1142901_00001"}}},{"id":"159372","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159372","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8b0b3ff7a8f1d3f5a061b2f31bc5c916a9ba850061ce77509e3ae72de851352f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:46:07 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謝謝主席 我們請馬次長好 請馬次長委員早安好 次長早 今天其實大家在討論這個災防法那我認為高雄其實在扮演非常重要的角色是因為高雄的11年前的氣爆案之後整個高雄都不斷地在討論說這個工業管線的問題到底要怎麼解決"},{"start":28.226,"end":44.607,"text":"那其實我也知道說這幾年內政部非常努力在推防災事的培訓嘛還有另外一個是任性社區的標章所以我還是先想要請教一下目前內政部的進度我知道說目前這個任性社區你們推的標章啊我們高雄總共有拿到19個"},{"start":45.828,"end":51.835,"text":"那當然我也認為說還要不斷的努力推廣才行因為這個對於高雄來說非常重要尤其是我剛剛講的工業管線的部分那我也要講啊其實過去幾年我在高雄也不斷的倡議說這個大社工業區的降編案到現在都還卡關當中"},{"start":64.25,"end":76.815,"text":"那卡關到現在廠區還沒有遷走會造成什麼影響呢就是其實我們還是有非常多的工業管線是經過市區的也經過我的選區那甚至我盤點了一下這些工業管線經過市區總共會經過160個里"},{"start":81.397,"end":87.507,"text":"也就是說這一些工業管線經過的里周遭的里就有160個那這160個里我去對了一下跟目前19個拿到任性社區的標章的總共只有兩個"},{"start":95.788,"end":109.375,"text":"周邊的里拿到任性社區的標章什麼意思呢就是我們認為任性社區很重要就是你們要有很有很了解這個防災相關的一些基本的知識那也在面對這些風險的時候基本上可以作為一個任性社區來應對這樣的災害可是當我去比對之後發現說160個裡面拿到任性社區的標章的竟然只有兩個"},{"start":119.801,"end":133.275,"text":"那是不是應該要努力的在讓這一些周邊的離別不管是防災的演練然後努力的多培育這一些防災市然後最後可以多拿到這些韌性社區呢各位報告我們推動韌性社區是從2023年開始"},{"start":140.144,"end":167.551,"text":"因為它有一個過程每一個過程大概都要花兩年的時間從一星到三星讓它能夠建構一個自主尾運的能力以目前委員剛剛所提到的的確是一個我們要去檢討的問題就是說以大社工業區做例子這樣的一個具有高度的危險性的一個空間我們在它周遭的社區應該要去做比較多的輔導跟任性社區一個推動這部分我們去做檢討"},{"start":168.373,"end":183.565,"text":"好 謝謝次長的承諾因為我相信次長也非常關心過去我們高雄的這些災害風險的情形那再來要繼續請教這個其實工業管線是不是今天經濟部也有請我們產業管理局的副局長"},{"start":185.356,"end":192.781,"text":"因為這個我剛剛想要延續這個工業管線的部分跟經濟部就非常有關係因為我知道說其實經濟部也有在做工業管線的社區防災演練嘛那可是就我所知就是每次參加的人員就其實是很難傳承跟維繫的也就是說目前這個社區的演練的成效到底如何其實不得而知然後強度跟次數我也認為非常不夠"},{"start":211.913,"end":235.424,"text":"因為我認為高雄是非常需要作為一個韌性城市的一個地方那在這樣的基礎之下我不知道說經濟部對於高雄的這些照顧到底到哪裡了那目前就我所知啦尤其是這些防災演練是你們辦的嘛但其實你們也跟地方的防災是沒有任何的連結也就是說你們防災演練沒有邀他們參與然後你們在處理工業管線的問題的時候其實我們地方的防災是"},{"start":241.607,"end":266.838,"text":"跟你們沒有任何的關係耶是這樣子嗎謝謝委員的詮詢跟委員報告其實針對我們目前相關的工業管線部分的工業區其實我們都有所謂的區域聯防的概念那實際上來講我們都會要求業者他必須要去提供相關的維管的計畫還有他一些演練那當然我們也會會同地方政府做一些查核還有就是配合地方來做所謂的緊急應變的這些相關的演練"},{"start":269.219,"end":286.618,"text":"那我想委員剛剛您所垂詢關心的那我們確實都有在努力在做那如果說委員希望我們有更進一步的一個資訊我們再提供給委員讓您做一些我們的指導好謝謝這個副局長喔這就是我想要講的因為就我所知目前房災市比較算是內政部底下隸屬的那"},{"start":288.34,"end":307.748,"text":"那變得說在我們在防防裡面就只有風災火災然後爆炸然後火山災害是屬於內政部管理的那可是裡面零零種種22種的災害類型是不是其他的類型就沒有辦法讓我們去由這個防災市來做第一線社區的聯防跟協助呢"},{"start":308.996,"end":322.974,"text":"我想有關於整個防災是後續的整個規劃可能我們就會來遵循就是未來內政部他所奠定相關的規範那如果有需要我們要納入我們的整個工業管線的防災計畫的話我們也會來做配合來做辦理"},{"start":323.675,"end":344.652,"text":"好這就是我希望因為今天既然兩個部會都在這裡就是其實啊在我們這裡面有隸屬7個部會22種災害類型那也就是說部會很多災害類型很多種但是最後防災是能夠協助到的社區的部分都只有我剛剛說的這幾種災害類型那我會覺得很可惜就以高雄來說如果就是這些工業管線一時之間有一些氣體的洩漏"},{"start":348.735,"end":370.587,"text":"那一時之間社區遇到災害類型是這邊說的例如說包括說如果是森林火災或是動植物的災難或是路上交通的事故化學物質或者是任何像是防疫這個生物病人的災害這些其他類型的災害發生的時候防災是到底可以起什麼作用這是我好奇的那是不是這部分也請次長來補充"},{"start":374.322,"end":394.78,"text":"好謝謝委員的問題我想防災式的訓練我們基本上是採取一個全災型的訓練並沒有針對特定的災害然後只訓練某些災害類型那麼我們在22種災害裡面其實防災式的訓練是希望他們能夠自救跟互助所以它不是一個非常的"},{"start":395.501,"end":420.539,"text":"高度專業的這樣的一個培訓那剛剛委員所提到的內政部主管的災害之外比如說我們的經濟部主管的水災跟農業部所主管的土石流我們都有防災室的參與他們也會在社區的層級去參與這些活動那這些委員所垂詢的關於工業管線災害的部分我們在社區的培訓裡面我們會培訓防災室對於察覺危險"},{"start":422.14,"end":446.622,"text":"這件事情還有疏散這件事情我們會培訓他們但如果要提到實際上去救災的話那就變成是專業部門的事所以我們會對這個事情會去做一個區隔好 謝謝次長的補充那其實我也很肯定內政部啦因為其實這兩年推動這個防災式啊我們地方上反應也蠻好的那包括里長都帶頭找里民去上課然後取得這個訓練然後現在我們高雄就已經有3664位了"},{"start":448.684,"end":452.091,"text":"那我也希望持續的努力推廣然後擴大到社區讓社區成為韌性的社區好 謝謝次長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":484,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時46分）謝謝主席，我們請馬次長。"],["主席：請馬次長。"],["馬次長士元：委員早安。"],["黃委員捷：次長早。今天大家在討論災防法，我認為高雄其實扮演非常重要的角色，是因為高雄在11年前的氣爆案之後，整個高雄都不斷地在討論工業管線的問題到底要怎麼解決，我也知道這幾年內政部非常努力在推防災士的培訓，還有另外一個是韌性社區標章，我還是想要請教一下，目前內政部的進度。我知道目前你們推的韌性社區標章，高雄總共有拿到19個，當然我也認為還要不斷地努力推廣才行，因為這個對於高雄來說非常重要，尤其是我剛剛講的工業管線部分，我也要講過去幾年，我在高雄也不斷地倡議大社工業區的降編案，到現在都還卡關當中，卡關到現在廠區還沒有遷走，會造成什麼影響呢？其實還是有非常多的工業管線是經過市區的，也經過我的選區，甚至我盤點了一下，這些工業管線經過的市區，總共會經過160個里，也就是這一些工業管線經過的里、周遭的里就有160個。我去對了一下，這160個里跟目前19個拿到韌性社區標章的，總共只有兩個周邊的里拿到韌性社區標章，什麼意思呢？就是我們認為韌性社區很重要，你們要很瞭解防災相關的一些基本知識，在面對這些風險的時候，基本上可以作為一個韌性社區來應對災害，可是當我去比對之後，發現在160個里中拿到韌性社區標章的，竟然只有兩個，是不是應該要努力地再讓這一些周邊的里別，不管是防災的演練、努力地多培育防災士，最後可以都拿到韌性社區呢？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們推動韌性社區是從2023年開始，因為它有一個過程，每一個過程大概都要花兩年的時間，從一星到三星，讓它能夠建構一個自主維運的能力。以目前委員剛剛所提到的，的確是一個我們要去檢討的問題，以大社工業區為例子，這樣一個具有高度的、危險性的空間，我們對它周遭的社區應該要去做比較多的輔導跟韌性社區的推動，這部分我們去做檢討。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝次長的承諾，我相信次長也非常關心過去高雄災害風險的情形。再來要繼續請教，是不是今天經濟部也有來？有請產業管理局的副局長。我想要延續工業管線的部分，跟經濟部就非常有關係，因為我知道其實經濟部也有在做工業管線的社區防災演練，可是就我所知，每次參加的人員其實是很難傳承跟維繫的，也就是說，目前社區演練的成效到底如何，其實不得而知，對於強度跟次數，我也認為非常不夠，因為我認為高雄是非常需要作為一個韌性城市的地方，在這樣的基礎之下，我不知道經濟部對於高雄的這些照顧到底到哪裡了？目前就我所知，尤其這些防災演練是你們辦的，但你們也跟地方的防災士沒有任何連結，也就是說，你們防災演練沒有邀他們參與，當你們在處理工業管線問題的時候，其實地方的防災士跟你們沒有任何的關係欸，是這樣子嗎？"],["曾副局長琡芬：謝謝委員的垂詢。跟委員報告，針對我們目前工業管線部分的工業區，我們都有所謂區域聯防的概念，實際上來講，我們也都會要求業者必須要去提供相關的維管計畫，還有一些演練，當然我們也會會同地方政府做一些查核，還有就是配合地方來做緊急應變相關的演練。委員剛剛所垂詢、關心的部分，我們確實都有努力在做，如果委員希望我們有更進一步的資訊，我們再提供給委員，讓您做一些指導。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝副局長。這就是我想要講的，因為就我所知，目前防災士比較算是內政部底下隸屬的，變成在災防法裡面就只有風災、火災、爆炸、火山災害是屬於內政部管理的，可是裡面林林總總、22種的災害類型，是不是其他的類型就沒有辦法由防災士作為第一線社區的聯防跟協助呢？"],["曾副局長琡芬：我想有關於整個防災士後續的整個規劃，我們可能就會遵循未來內政部所訂定相關的規範，如果有需要納入整個工業管線的防災計畫，我們也會配合來辦理。"],["黃委員捷：好。這就是我希望的，因為今天既然兩個部會都在這裡，這裡面是隸屬7個部會、22種災害類型，也就是部會很多、災害類型很多種，但是最後防災士能夠協助到社區的部分，都只有我剛剛說的這幾種災害類型，我會覺得很可惜。就以高雄來說，如果這些工業管線一時之間有一些氣體洩漏，一時之間社區遇到災害類型是這邊說的，包括如果是森林火災或是動植物的災難，或是路上交通事故、化學物質，或者是任何像是防疫、生物病原的災害，這些其他類型的災害發生時，防災士到底可以起什麼作用，這是我好奇的，是不是這部分也請次長來補充？"],["馬次長士元：好，謝謝委員的問題。我想防災士的訓練，基本上是採取一個全災型的訓練，並沒有針對特定的災害只訓練某些災害類型。"],["黃委員捷：是！"],["馬次長士元：我們在22種災害裡面，其實防災士的訓練是希望他們能夠自救跟互助，所以他不是一個非常高度、專業的培訓。剛剛委員所提到內政部主管的災害之外，比如說經濟部主管的水災跟農業部所主管的土石流，我們都有防災士的參與，他們也會在社區層級去參與這些活動，至於委員所垂詢的關於工業管線災害部分，在社區培訓裡面，我們會培訓防災士對於察覺危險這件事情及疏散這件事情，我們會培訓他們，但如果要提到實際上要去救災的話，那就變成是專業部門的事，所以我們對這個事情會去做一個區隔，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝次長的補充，我也很肯定內政部，因為這兩年推動防災士，地方上反映也滿好的，包括里長都帶頭找里民去上課、取得這個訓練，現在我們高雄就已經有3,664位了，我也希望持續地努力推廣，擴大到社區，讓社區成為韌性社區，好，謝謝次長。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-4","speakers":["張宏陸","丁學忠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","李柏毅","王美惠","黃建賓","許宇甄","楊瓊瓔","吳琪銘","黃捷","徐欣瑩","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「災害防救法第三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n「災害防救法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「災害防救法第二\n十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1142901_00001"}}},{"id":"159370","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159370","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b88c4e274a72b7217b39fe1519e09d1f6f9ba850061ce7750996ef8369fd87006b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:16:35 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我們請部長來 有請部長嘿"},{"start":18.871,"end":41.077,"text":"部長好部長我最近看到就是說我們勞動部也揭露就是這個國際工時的比較那這個從這個比較當中我們也看到台灣的這個2023年的這個人均工時達到2020個小時那在全球主要國家當中是排第五"},{"start":41.637,"end":66.947,"text":"第五高那亞洲的話是第二高那我不知道說部長你看到這個調查之後你的感想是怎樣你有看到這個我當然認為就台灣的工時的問題的話我們當然有可以改善的空間是有改善的空間嗎我們當然覺得是好那部長我想請教因為之前"},{"start":68.267,"end":93.61,"text":"最近我想之前也有討論就是還勞供七天假這個議題那最近大家也在討論說是不是這個假期能夠統一那我也想請教就是說如果我們在這個整個制度上面譬如說我們這個工時是不是有可能再做一個調整或者是我們目前的這個特休"},{"start":95.004,"end":115.958,"text":"特休是不是也有可能再做一個調整那如果說這個未來可能我們國民黨的委員可能會針對這個勞工七天假的這個議題可能會再修法那如果說是我們的話有沒有可能如果說不去修法的話那有沒有可能在我們這個特休這方面去做一個調整"},{"start":118.72,"end":135.572,"text":"跟黃委員說明其實因為今天也很多委員在討論國定假日是否有調整我說從勞動部的角度來說我們還是要表達這個法規的主管機關是在內政部那我們很願意參與這個部分的討論"},{"start":136.713,"end":154.826,"text":"那這當然從勞動部的角度來說我們認為國定假日的調整那我們很願意正向的來做相關的討論但是剛剛黃委員講到一個就是說關於要不要修法的問題這個要不要到立法院裡面用修法的形式或立法的形式"},{"start":156.195,"end":170.961,"text":"在國會裡面立法行事的部分的話因為勞動部是整個大的也是我們是大整個大的執政團隊的議員但就這個法規要用什麼形式來處理要不要進到立法院修法這部分當然我們會尊重內政部"},{"start":171.601,"end":198.861,"text":"我們會尊重內政部但國定假日需不需要調整或者是說要不要調整我們覺得是有討論的空間那這是不一樣的層次一個是要不要立法一個是一個要不要調整這是不太一樣的事情但要不要立法的部分這部分當然我們會尊重內政部因為內政部是法規的主管機關那部長我剛剛也有提到一個問題就是說那我們這個特休的部分有沒有可能也去做一個調整"},{"start":199.561,"end":224.309,"text":"我認為因為確實最近大家針對特休有一些討論但因為特休如果要調整的話也是要涉及到修法所以要涉及到修法都會需要這個需要社會上面有更多的共識或者是更多的討論是部分要涉及修法但我們願意來聽社會各界的想法因為我們也看到就是說可能我們整個"},{"start":225.289,"end":241.937,"text":"公時可能跟其他國家比起來可能也許是比較高一點那再來就是說我們台灣是以中小企業為多數很多如果說你要修到特休要修到這個15年可能15年以上可能就有這個15天5年"},{"start":244.838,"end":263.386,"text":"就是5到9年差不多15天嘛那10年後是每一年再加一天最高到30天嘛那我們知道就是說台灣的這個中小企業平均平均的這個就是一間中小企業的公司的平均收益差不多是13年"},{"start":264.786,"end":292.224,"text":"所以他如果說要到這個特休如果要到那個30天的話其實還是有他的困難所以我們是不是有可能就是說在這個特休方面可能也許可以再去做一個調整我記得在2016年那時候有去做一個調整那是不是可以再做一個也許在這方面是不是可以再做一些調整或是可以再做一些討論"},{"start":293.982,"end":303.033,"text":"我覺得這些相關的制度因為我剛才說確實工時的台灣工時的狀況是有改善所以我覺得我想我們都會聆聽各界的意見"},{"start":304.482,"end":333.333,"text":"好 那就是還需要就是大家討論然後聽各界的聲音那我剛剛有特別提到就是說這個特休的部分那當然就是也是需要聽各界的這個聲音那我另外一個就是說我想請教就是說我們以前如果我們在那個人力銀行上面可能就是說這個求財那也許薪資方面可能就會寫免疫"},{"start":334.373,"end":361.146,"text":"可能就是薪資他沒有特定這樣去寫那後來有去做一個就做一個這個修正就是說如果是這個最低薪資或是三萬多的話也許你就是要去這個寫名薪資多少那也許是四萬以上就可以就是用免疫嘛那我覺得說這個部分我覺得應該揭露的話可能也許對勞工來講會是比較好的"},{"start":365.823,"end":387.714,"text":"確實就像剛剛黃媛說其實工時長也有一個原因是因為其實如果對很多比較低薪的勞工的話他就有部分低薪勞工他就覺得他可能會需要透過加班來提高收入那這當然是我們我們不會鼓勵不樂見看到這個狀況所以我們覺得其實有時候拉高薪資也會是一個降低工時的一個做法"},{"start":388.214,"end":414.756,"text":"那拉高薪資的做法第一個我們現在是透過最低工資的持續的提升這是一個第二個就是關於薪資透明化所以接下來關於薪資透明化我們也希望能夠把這個從4萬以下要揭露變成是拉高是5萬以下就要揭露那這個會來修訂就業服務法那目前這也是在行政院的經濟發展委員會裡面其實有確認那我們現在也在準備這個法規修訂相關的準備"},{"start":415.737,"end":442.589,"text":"所以目前也是在行政院這邊我們現在正在法官修訂的準備就是希望把4萬要揭露提高到5萬要揭露我想請教就是說其實我們以前中央政府部門如果是約聘僱或者是約聘約用人員可能勞務承攬的有的都是用最低薪資"},{"start":443.709,"end":459.549,"text":"那現在就是說對於我們公務單位的這個月聘僱承攬承攬人員他的薪資現在已經這個月薪最低薪資就是月薪的用最低薪資的1.1倍那大約是3萬3萬1千"},{"start":462.552,"end":478.387,"text":"449元那這個是用公務單位這邊來算就是說不是用最低薪資是用最低薪資的1.1倍那就差不多3萬1千多那我想請教就是說這個有沒有可能就是勞動部去對於一些企業"},{"start":479.548,"end":492.9,"text":"是不是你們也可以去鼓勵或者是擴及到全國的企業就是說用最低薪資來聘用是不是我覺得說這方面應該勞動部也可以去鼓勵"},{"start":495.441,"end":521.699,"text":"陳蘭只要是你適用勞基法的勞工的話一定都是要用最低薪資以上的那我們現在當然我們很希望去鼓勵企業不只是給最低薪資甚至該給更高所以可能比方說我們最近其實也會有一些工會他用團體協約的方式或者是我們也在想用其他的方式來協助或刺激企業其實可以更大的加薪我覺得部長你應該從"},{"start":524.2,"end":551.018,"text":"現在已經從我們自己的這個公部門開始那我覺得國營事業我覺得應該也可以去要求或者是鼓勵他們希望能夠用最低薪資的這樣的1.1倍來聘用我覺得這個也是一方面就是從政府做起啦是 當然我們來跟相關的事業單位來討論一下這個事情我們希望是這樣子來做那這個最後一根就是說"},{"start":552.76,"end":580.2,"text":"最近大家希望就是說我剛剛講的這個國定假日也好那或者是那個國定假日能夠一致啦那其實我有一個想法就是說如果未來我們如果不透過這個修法的話那又可以讓所有勞工或者是公務人員大家休假又比較一致的話我覺得在春節方面的這個休假會不會是一致會更好"},{"start":580.74,"end":601.327,"text":"因為我們如果以今年的這個春節來講的話其實我們今年的春節有九天嘛那到明年2026年的這個春節也許只剩下六天如果沒有彈性放假的話可能就剩下六天那如果說要讓我們所有的國人放假是一致的"},{"start":602.227,"end":625.974,"text":"我覺得可以朝著這個春節然後又讓勞工勞工的這個工時又不會那麼長然後大家春節全國一致放假而且未來就是如果是一致放假的話就是都有九天我覺得這個也是皆大歡喜我相信請部長如果說跟行政單位大家在討論的話我覺得可以朝著這個方向去思考"},{"start":626.494,"end":649.729,"text":"我還是要說因為這個國家的主管單位在法規主管單位內政部但是就像這些相關的提案相關的想法的討論其實我們都是正面看待然後我們也願意一起參與這些討論我們正面看待也願意參與討論但是確實就是針對最後法規要用什麼形式要不要進到立法院立法這部分我們當然還是尊重內政部是好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":833,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時16分）謝謝主席。我們請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。"],["洪部長申翰：秀芳委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我最近看到勞動部也揭露國際工時的比較，從這個比較當中，我們也看到臺灣在2023年的人均工時達到2,020個小時，在全球主要國家當中是排第五高；亞洲是第二高。我不知道部長你看到這個調查之後，你的感想是怎樣？你有看到這個……"],["洪部長申翰：我認為就臺灣工時問題的話，我們當然有可以改善的空間。"],["黃委員秀芳：是，有改善的空間嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然覺得是這樣。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，部長，之前也有討論過，就是還勞工7天假這個議題，最近大家也在討論是不是假期能夠統一？我也想請教如果我們在整個制度上面，譬如我們的工時是不是有可能再調整，或是我們目前的特休是不是也有可能再調整？未來國民黨的委員可能會針對勞工7天假的議題修法；如果不去修法的話，我們有沒有可能在特休這方面去調整？"],["洪部長申翰：好，跟黃委員說明，因為今天社環委員會也有很多委員在討論國定假日是不是有調整？從勞動部的角度來說，我還是要表達這個法規的主管機關是內政部，我們很願意參與這個部分的討論。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["洪部長申翰：當然從勞動部的角度來說，我們認為國定假日的調整，我們很願意正向來做相關的討論，但是剛剛黃委員講到關於要不要修法的問題、要不要到立法院用修法的形式或立法的形式，針對在國會裡面立法形式的部分，因為勞動部是整個大的執政團隊的一員，就這個法規要用什麼形式來處理、要不要進到立法院修法，當然我們會尊重內政部，但國定假日需不需要調整或要不要調整，我們覺得是有討論的空間。"],["黃委員秀芳：有討論的空間。"],["洪部長申翰：這是不一樣的層次，一個是要不要立法；一個是要不要調整，這是不太一樣的事情，但要不要立法這部分，當然我們會尊重內政部，因為內政部是法規的主管機關。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。部長，我剛剛也有提到一個問題，就是我們特休的部分，有沒有可能也去做一個調整？"],["洪部長申翰：確實最近大家針對特休有些討論，但特休如果要調整的話，也是要涉及到修法。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["洪部長申翰：涉及到修法都需要社會上面有更多的共識或是更多的討論，這部分涉及修法，但我們願意聽社會各界的想法。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們也看到可能整個工時跟其他國家比起來也許是比較高一點。再來，臺灣是以中小企業為多數，如果特休要修到15年或15年以上，就是5到9年差不多15天；10年後是每一年再加1天，最高到30天。我們知道臺灣一間中小企業的公司平均壽命差不多是13年，所以如果特休要休到30天的話，其實還是有它的困難。所以我們是不是有可能在特休方面，也許可以再去調整？我記得在2016年那時候有調整。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：也許在這方面是不是可以再做一些調整或再做一些討論？"],["洪部長申翰：這些相關的制度，我剛才說確實臺灣工時的狀況有改善空間，我們都會聆聽各界的意見。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，那就是還需要大家討論，然後聽各界的聲音？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：我剛剛有特別提到特休的部分，當然也需要聽各界的聲音。","另外我想請教，以前在人力銀行上面求才，薪資方面可能會寫面議，可能薪資沒有特定去寫，後來有修正，如果是最低薪資或者是三萬多的話，要寫明薪資多少；4萬以上可以用面議。我覺得這個部分揭露的話，也許對勞工來講會是比較好的。"],["洪部長申翰：確實，就像剛剛黃委員說的，其實工時長也有一個原因，如果對很多比較低薪的勞工的話……"],["黃委員秀芳：他還需要透過加班來獲取更多薪資……"],["洪部長申翰：有部分低薪勞工，他可能會需要透過加班來提高收入，我們不樂見看到這個狀況，所以我們覺得其實有時候拉高薪資也會是一個降低工時的作法。有關拉高薪資的作法，第一個，現在是透過最低工資的持續提升；第二個就是關於薪資透明化，接下來關於薪資透明化，我們也希望能夠把從4萬以下要揭露，變成拉高到5萬以下就要揭露，這部分會來修訂就業服務法。目前這個在行政院經濟發展委員會裡面有確認，我們現在也在做法規修訂相關的準備。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以目前在行政院這邊，還在討論嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們現在正在做法規修訂的準備，希望把4萬要揭露提高到5萬。"],["黃委員秀芳：提高到5萬就要揭露。"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教，其實以前中央政府部門如果是約聘僱或者約聘、約用人員，可能有的勞務承攬都是用最低薪資，但是現在公務單位的約聘僱承攬人員薪資已經是用最低薪資的1.1倍，大約是3萬1,449元，公務單位不用最低薪資，是用最低薪資的1.1倍，差不多是三萬一千多。我想請教勞動部有沒有可能對一些企業鼓勵，或者擴及到全國的企業，而不是說用最低薪資來聘用？我覺得這方面勞動部應該也可以去鼓勵。"],["洪部長申翰：只要適用勞基法的勞工的話，一定都是要用最低薪資以上，我們現在當然很希望去鼓勵企業，不只是給最低薪資，甚至給更高，比方說，我們最近其實也會有一些工會用團體協約的方式，或者是我們也在想用其他的方式來協助或刺激企業，其實可以更大的加薪。"],["黃委員秀芳：現在已經從公部門開始，我覺得國營事業應該也可以去要求，或者是鼓勵他們，希望能夠用最低薪資的1.1倍來聘用，這個也是從政府做起。"],["洪部長申翰：我們跟相關的事業單位來討論一下這個事情。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們希望是這樣子做。","最後一個，最近大家希望國定假日能夠一致，其實我有一個想法，未來如果不透過修法，又可以讓所有勞工或是公務人員大家休假比較一致的話，我覺得在春節方面的休假，會不會一致會更好？因為如果以今年的這個春節來講，其實今年的春節有9天，明年（2026年）的春節如果沒有彈性放假的話可能就剩下6天，如果說要讓所有國人放假是一致的，又讓勞工的工時不會那麼長，我覺得可以朝著春節全國一致放假，而且未來如果是一致放假的話都有9天，我覺得也是皆大歡喜。部長如果跟行政單位大家討論的話，可以朝著這個方向去思考。"],["洪部長申翰：我還是要說，國定假日法規的主管單位在內政部，但是相關的提案、想法的討論我們都是正面看待，也願意參與討論，針對最後法規要用什麼形式、要不要進到立法院立法，這部分我們當然是尊重內政部。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請林淑芬委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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請劉主委劉主委"},{"start":20.785,"end":40.015,"text":"六點早安 各位在二月份國發會有公布了一月份的景氣的燈號中和整個判斷的話是34分比去年的12月份的38分是掉了4分但是我們從去年看到的整個台灣經濟的狀況是有逐步復甦的情形那這個也擺脫了前幾年藍燈低迷"},{"start":47.659,"end":69.411,"text":"據我們國發會的說法是因為整個經濟的動能就是受到AIAI這個產業新興科技整個的發展所帶動起來讓我們出口有更進一步的增加讓國外的很多大廠都到台灣來投資也讓我們的民眾可以支配整個我們國內內需的整個市場的活絡對不對是的"},{"start":72.293,"end":80.799,"text":"那本席也特別跟我們的國貿署有調了一份資料我們看到了就是2023年我們整個對於出口總值是4324億2905萬元那2024年的話是4750億284億元整個產值也多了這個將近有426億的美元那看到的話這就是"},{"start":100.112,"end":104.719,"text":"目前來講的話就是川普他上任之後的話他說要重回這個貿易這個"},{"start":108.653,"end":123.743,"text":"這樣保護的這個措施所以要對各國課以這個關稅那我們也看到了他對於這個大陸的關稅要全面的話要增加了20%而對鋼鐵還有就是鋁的部分的話要25%那我們看到他有預告了4月份都對所有的國家都會這個這個對等的這個關稅都會來增加在這個部分來"},{"start":137.071,"end":165.043,"text":"各國也對這個這個美國會有一些的比例的這個課稅的方面都會相對的因應那我請問諸位那目前來講的話我們的關稅施行細則還沒有公布那對於美國對我們的這個出口也是第二大這個市場那請問這個諸位那會不會影響我們下半年裡的出口率出口會下降出口總值會下降情形"},{"start":167.797,"end":185.789,"text":"這個部分其實我們是兩件事在做一個是持續溝通第二個我們做一些因應那我舉個例子其實美國整個策略他還是希望在美國製造所以川普講了很多次了就是在美國製造會比較便宜如果課稅的話"},{"start":187.19,"end":214.656,"text":"那所以呢我們現在因應比較比較目前機會比較大的像以譬如說半導體好了我大概跟業者我們談了三次那業者是認為呢有些業者他在美國有工廠他會從美國出貨那有些業者呢他認為呢只要是全球一起科稅那他們的競爭條件是一致的所以主委那這樣子的話美國可不可能對我們國內的有哪些產業他會加徵這個關稅"},{"start":219.385,"end":239.339,"text":"目前我們看到機會最大的是半導體它會逐步因為它是從稅務平等來看只要我們的平均稅率高於它的那個產業就會有可能要嘛我們降稅要嘛就增稅所以國發會那你對這些產業你要如何協助跟各部會的話怎麼嚴厲因應的方案呢"},{"start":239.919,"end":250.902,"text":"對 我們現在是這樣子因為它產業別的狀態是不一樣的我想委員應該前面有提到我們美國對於這個鋼鐵鋁去課徵25%的關稅那譬如說它全球課25%關稅的時候對台灣是沒有影響的因為台灣本來就課25%"},{"start":258.824,"end":276.984,"text":"反而對韓國中國這些稅負比較低的受到影響所以他不同的產業會有不同的因應的策略所以你要跟各部會做好嚴寧的方案嗎現在是我們副院長在領導大家在做這樣的一個規劃坦白講我們最近也會在"},{"start":277.985,"end":288.131,"text":"我們幾乎每個禮拜都有開會可是主委你要知道如果整個出口的產值都萎縮的話也會影響國內整個產業搞不好我們的燈號又回到藍燈了是不是我們其實這個部分我們是一直在觀測美國內部的銷售數據跟就業的狀態還有它的CPI跟PPI"},{"start":299.677,"end":323.257,"text":"國防會你有沒有做這個先前的評估嗎有 我們現在是很頻繁的在看它只要數字出來我們就有在看它的數字的變動我們希望整個景氣能夠維持現在的狀況然後讓產業變得比較穩定但是如果我們從AI的角度來看它可能整體的需求我們目前評估AI的需求是比較不容易下降的"},{"start":323.877,"end":332.779,"text":"可是你現在看到加拿大或者是歐盟國家他對於他這個課稅這關稅的部分的話他們有採取這個相對應的方式就是報復性的課稅對那你對這個看法呢我們台灣的話有沒有那個底氣有沒有那個魄力或者是我們能夠也有相對應的這個方案出來"},{"start":346.233,"end":355.16,"text":"因為我們是高貿易依存度的國家所以我們還是會主張要跟世界各國維持友好的關係人家看我們課稅"},{"start":357.025,"end":363.412,"text":"科稅這個也不是第一次在2017、2018都有所以我們一直在溝通我們看看4月2號溝通的結果那個時候再來去我們的因應措施目前有一些包括我們怎麼去協助因為我們國發會都很樂觀外銷成本"},{"start":379.289,"end":384.551,"text":"你們很樂觀說現在我們整個經濟的成長你們也定到3%如果這種情形一再發生下去的話這經濟成長你就要下修了嗎不一定喔因為這還是一個全球競爭的企業是一個競爭的狀態我舉個例子喔全球經濟如果0成長他去年呢跟我們買100億的東西今年還是會買100億那如果我們從別人別的國家手上拿回一些市場市佔率我們還有可能從100億拉到110億"},{"start":408.641,"end":419.958,"text":"可是你這個關稅會影響讓所有的產品的成本都會提高提高之後的話我們整個全球的話就會有通膨的情形發生如果大家都一起漲價本身就是大家會在同一個競爭基礎上"},{"start":421.502,"end":429.387,"text":"那現在是怎麼樣去驅動消費端主委是很樂觀但是你不要忽略了這整個對產業國內國外的產業都有很大的衝擊我們為了保護自己的話我們應該跟各部會趕快嚴寧方案出來所以我們每週都有一個會議在討論再來問我們主委一個狀況那因為台積電先問主委好了台積電的股票你有買嗎"},{"start":449.895,"end":457.78,"text":"我沒有買你沒有買那你有沒有關心台積電的股票現在的情形因為我是問我們當然關心因為我們是他的大股東對就是因為國發會我們我們是大股東所以目前的股價一直下跌而在這種情形之下又美國這邊有預告說未來我們半導體可能課稅要到百分之八百分之二十五那在這種情況之下的話我們國人對於整個台積電"},{"start":479.553,"end":489.52,"text":"這個未來的發展是不太樂觀也存在很大的疑慮尤其是說現在我們整個台積電到美國是來投資了將近1650億的這個美元那未來會再增加投資也是未來確定性的事情"},{"start":497.606,"end":517.502,"text":"但是我們擔心的就是說我們的整個研發會不會移到美國去美國也說他們在那邊台積電會做研發中心會在那裡設置在那裡設置之後的話我們人才剛剛主委特別提到說還是台灣的人才最重要整個先進的研發製程的話都會在台灣研發半年到兩年的時間研發成了會"},{"start":521.765,"end":536.887,"text":"之後才拿到美國去就做個製程出來但是我們擔心的是研發中心如果美國設置下去的話他們研發的速度如果比我們快更先進的話那是不是整個技術都會整個被美國控制過去了"},{"start":538.889,"end":554.662,"text":"這個所有的技術一定產權屬於台積電所有所以其實台灣有很多公司在矽谷都是有研發中心不瞞您說包括台積電也有因為美國在某些領域還是有頂尖的領先技術整個半導體是從美國發過來的"},{"start":556.684,"end":583.221,"text":"所以每一個公司在海外設的研發中心所取得的研究成果還是屬於這家公司的知識產權所以它還是會有營業秘密的保障所以技術還是有一定的保障但是主委你要知道台積電過去之後它底下上下游的產業鏈因為成本因為關稅的問題他們也都會外移到美國在外移的情況之下我們要如何鞏固在我們台灣整個產業的發展這個不是外移是擴大台灣的市場"},{"start":584.702,"end":605.813,"text":"因為我們臺灣本土的市場並不夠大那如果我們能走到世界的市場會讓臺灣的產業更加著重所以國發會更要具體的整個政策的一個作為才能讓我們國人對台積電這個護國神山更加有信心是不是你們拿出你們的政策出來好不好我們是有的 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":510,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時16分）謝謝主席，請劉主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：呂委員早安。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，在2月份國發會公布了1月份景氣的燈號，綜合整個判斷是34分，比去年12月份的38分掉了4分，但是我們從去年看到臺灣經濟的狀況是有逐步復甦的情形，也擺脫了前幾年藍燈的低迷。據國發會的說法，是因為整個經濟的動能受到AI產業、新興科技整個發展所帶動起來，讓我們出口有更進一步的增加，國外很多大廠都到臺灣來投資，也讓我們的民眾可以支配整個國內內需市場的活絡，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，本席也特別跟國貿署調了一份資料，我們看到2023年出口總值是4,324億2,905萬元；2024年是4,750億0,284萬元，整個產值也多將近426億美元。以目前來講，川普上任之後，他說要重回貿易保護的措施，所以要對各國課以關稅，我們也看到他對大陸的關稅要全面增至20%；對於鋼鐵跟鋁要課徵25%，並且預告4月份對所有國家都會實施對等關稅，也就是都會增加，在這個部分，各國對於美國一些課稅比率也都會有相對的因應。目前來講，我們的關稅施行細則還沒有公布，而美國也是我們出口的第二大市場，請問主委，會不會影響我們下半年的出口率，即出口的總值會有下降的情形？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分其實我們是兩件事在做，一個是持續溝通；第二個，我們做一些因應。我舉個例子，其實美國整個策略還是希望在美國製造，如果課稅的話，川普講了很多次在美國製造會比較便宜。所以，因應目前機會比較大的，譬如說半導體好了，我大概跟業者談了3次，有些業者是認為他在美國有工廠，會從美國出貨；而有些業者認為只要是全球一起課稅，他們的競爭條件是一致的，他們覺得……"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，這樣子的話，美國對我們國內的哪些產業會加徵關稅？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：目前我們看到機會最大的是半導體，它會逐步，因為它是從稅務平等來看，只要我們平均利率高於他們的那個產業就有可能，要嘛我們降稅，要嘛就是增稅，那……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以國發會要如何協助這些產業？你們要怎麼跟各部會研擬因應方案呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在是這樣子，因為產業別的狀態不一樣，委員前面也有提到美國對於鋼鐵、鋁課徵25%的關稅，譬如說在它對全球課徵25%關稅的時候，對臺灣是沒有影響的，因為臺灣本來就課25%，反而是韓國、中國這些稅率比較低的會受到影響，所以不同的產業會有不同的因應策略。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以你要跟各部會研擬好因應方案。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有，現在是我們副院長在領導大家做這樣的規劃，坦白講，我們最近幾乎每個禮拜都開會。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是主委你要知道，如果整個出口產值萎縮的話，也會影響國內整個產業，搞不好我們的景氣燈號又會回到藍燈，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個部分其實我們一直在觀測美國內部的銷售數據跟就業狀態，還有它的CPI跟平均來做比較。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以國發會有做這個先前的評估嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有，我們現在就是很頻繁地在看，只要數字出來，我們就會看它的變動。我們希望整個景氣能夠維持現在的狀況，讓產業可以變得比較穩定，但是如果從AI的角度來看，我們目前評估它整體的需求是比較不容易下降的。"],["呂委員玉玲：主委，可是現在加拿大或歐盟國家對這個關稅的課徵有採取相對應的方式，就是報復性的課稅，你對這種方式有何看法？我們臺灣有沒有這樣的底氣和魄力，或者是我們也能提出相對應的方案？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為我們是高貿易依存度的國家，所以還是會主張要跟世界各國維持友好的關係，那……"],["呂委員玉玲：可是人家跟我們課稅了啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有關課稅的部分，這也不是第一次了，在2017、2018都有，所以我們……"],["呂委員玉玲：可是現在是加重啊！美國優先、美國課稅啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以我們一直在溝通，看看4月2日溝通結果再提出相關措施，目前的因應措施包括怎麼去協助廠商降低外銷成本……"],["呂委員玉玲：因為國發會很樂觀啊！你們很樂觀，所以對於我們的經濟成長率，你們也把它訂在3%……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們非常審慎。"],["呂委員玉玲：如果這個情形一再發生，經濟成長率可能就要下修了嘛！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不一定，因為企業是一個競爭的狀態，我舉個例子，全球經濟如果零成長，它去年跟我們買100億的東西，今年還是會買100億，如果我們從別的國家手上拿回一些市占率，我們還有可能從100億拉到110億。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是這樣的關稅會讓所有產品的成本都提高，之後全球就會有通膨的情形發生。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：如果大家都一起漲價，大家就會在同一個競爭基礎上，現在是怎麼樣去趨動消費端能夠達成……"],["呂委員玉玲：主委是很樂觀啦！但是你不要忽略這對國內外產業都會產生很大的衝擊，為了保護自己，我們應該趕快跟各部會研擬出方案，這才是最重要的，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，所以我們現在每週都有一個會議在討論這個問題。"],["呂委員玉玲：本席想再請教主委一個狀況。首先請問主委，你有買台積電的股票嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我沒有買。"],["呂委員玉玲：那你有沒有關心台積電現在的情形？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們當然關心啊，因為我們是它的大股東。"],["呂委員玉玲：對，就是因為國發會是台積電的大股東，目前台積電股價一直下跌，而美國又預告可能要對半導體課到25%的稅，在這種情況之下，國人對於台積電未來的發展存有很大的疑慮，尤其現在台積電到美國投資了將近1,650億美元，雖然後續會不會再增加投資目前還不確定，但是我們擔心它整個研發會不會移到美國去。美國說台積電會在他們那裡設置研發中心，如果設在那裡的話，我們的人才呢？剛剛主委特別提到還是臺灣的人才最重要，整個先進研發製程都會在臺灣研發半年到兩年的時間，研發成功之後才會拿到美國去做為製程，但我們擔心的是，如果在美國設置研發中心，而且他們的研發速度比我們快、比我們更先進的話，會不會整個技術都被美國控制？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所有技術的產權一定都屬於台積電所有，其實臺灣也有很多公司在矽谷都設有研發中心，不瞞您說，包括台積電也有。因為美國在某些領域還是有頂尖的領先技術，整個半導體就是從美國發展過來的，所以每家公司在其海外研發中心取得的研究成果還是屬於這家公司的知識產權，還是會受營業秘密的保障。"],["呂委員玉玲：雖然技術還是有一定的保障，但是主委你要知道，台積電過去之後，它上下游的產業鏈會因為成本和關稅的問題也外移到美國，在外移的情況之下，我們要如何鞏固臺灣整個產業的發展？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個不是外移，而是擴大臺灣的市場，因為我們臺灣本土的市場並不夠大，如果我們能走到世界的市場，會讓臺灣的產業更加茁壯，所以我們本來……"],["呂委員玉玲：所以國發會更要有具體的政策作為，才能讓國人對台積電這個護國神山更加有信心。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。我們現在其實……"],["呂委員玉玲：你們要拿出你們的政策出來，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們是有的。"],["呂委員玉玲：好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請邱志偉委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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的話,因為QDR是現在國安法裡面明定的,美國已經沒有QDR了,就四年期,美國就實施這個國防報告書,那我們要做國防報告書,因為QDR是法律明文規定,那我們當然還是要做。"},{"start":78.341,"end":99.911,"text":"那如果說大院覺得這樣的QDR跟國防報告書不需要這樣子重複的話那我們還是會來出國防報告書的話那我想我會如果大院同意做這樣的修正我會接受這樣子因為如果重複性高的話是整病比較不會那麼因為像美國已經沒有QDR"},{"start":102.532,"end":119.339,"text":"那我們這次這個QDR所強調的其中一個主軸是建構敏捷的應變戰力那為了應對中共這種頻繁的這個侵擾而且甚至在模擬我們這個台灣的這種搶灘或是訪台灣的這種巷戰這種模式"},{"start":125.362,"end":143.7,"text":"那另外針對這個共軍可能由演轉戰假戲真作的這種情況發生那國軍應於這個3月17到21已經在舉行的這種首次的立即戰備的這種操演藉此證明我們聯合作戰的這種計畫確保"},{"start":145.101,"end":170.747,"text":"各種作戰的這種部隊能夠隨時從訓練轉而變成備戰的這種狀態那對這種情形目前我們在進行中的立即備戰的操演進行今天已經第三天了我想請教部長就是中共有沒有可能因為我們這種立即備戰的這種操演有更多的這種侵擾的情形"},{"start":173.346,"end":195.938,"text":"我沒有辦法排除中國可能以任何的理由或藉口來進行任何的一些軍事的一些操演那從事這些灰色地帶的洗腦也好這個所謂的一些比較強度比較高的軍事操演也好"},{"start":197.579,"end":212.735,"text":"都我們都隨時在按照我們的應用我們聯合勤監的手段來加以來提早的來查資然後我們來進行應對所以我們才有所謂的非計劃性的立即備戰朝野也就是說"},{"start":213.996,"end":236.466,"text":"我們過去他來操演那我們好像沒有任何的這個動應對那我們現在就是總長的這個要求就是說那他來演習那我們相對應的也要做相對應預判他的可能的動作我們來做相對應的操演這就是實戰化訓練裡面的一環我想這個部分是很重要"},{"start":237.046,"end":243.057,"text":"那計劃性的這個禮拜要進行的就是說是由我們自己會有統財部我們下狀況下狀況以後來訓練也要誘導他然後來進行這個那指揮官"},{"start":249.16,"end":266.211,"text":"磨練指揮官的決策能力跟各部隊的應對的能力我想這個是很好的一個一種模式這樣子那未來我們有沒有可能針對歷期的這種備戰操演模式常態來執行增加這個"},{"start":267.812,"end":295.321,"text":"超遠的次數我們現在預計是每半年實施一次這個計劃性的立即備戰超遠那另外針對中國可能的針對性的軍演那我們也會由於總統下令是他的強度我們也會下令進行所謂的備戰超遠所以有分成計劃性的計劃性就是上半年一次下半年一次那非計劃性就是看他一些針對性的軍演這個軍演的就是我們判斷依照我們的聯合檢診所認為他的強度"},{"start":296.801,"end":312.873,"text":"到達一定強度的時候我們總長可能會下令立即備戰操演部長針對計畫性跟非計畫性的部分我們有沒有可能在未來要操演的過程裡面每次都會提前公布相關的期程"},{"start":314.525,"end":318.127,"text":"我們計劃性的備戰操演是聯度的訓練裡面,但是對外會公佈嗎?沒有主動對外公佈"},{"start":328.103,"end":349.468,"text":"好另外我想就叫部長就是一年期的這個EVE相關的議題那國防部在去年元月份已經恢復這個一年期的EVE根據這個行政院報告顯示那去年的這個成效還算不錯那規劃今年起要入伍的這種新兵將在八週入伍訓練的過程時增加這個手槍還有這個機槍實彈射擊並接受"},{"start":356.69,"end":376.729,"text":"這個無人機還有反裝甲火箭及刺針火箭操作等課程那我想請教就在我們1518週的這個訓練過程裡面我們現在加入新式的這個武器訓練之後在時程的安排上我們是不是可以有充分的時間可以讓他們來做訓練"},{"start":380.808,"end":400.278,"text":"我們現在就是說提高入伍的訓練,單就入伍來講的話,我們是不管志願役、一年級、義務役跟四個月軍事協議,我們都統一調為八週所以我們新增的這些項目都是一樣,包括戰傷救護、快速反應設計、政案教育等等"},{"start":400.818,"end":418.586,"text":"那強化這些單兵的戰鬥技能他完訓之後他至少要能夠成為一個合格的戰鬥兵這個目標來做那151一年級的部分的話他還可以再加他的駐地訓練然後再加他的基地的訓練那使得他不但只是那個他還能夠操作更這個具備這個"},{"start":423.849,"end":442.96,"text":"他看他這個部隊的這個型態他能夠執行他的一個戰備任務時間充裕就對了一年期的義務相對於四個月的軍事訓練營養我想訓練的時間是相對的充裕而且我們希望他能夠紮實不要讓他覺得是在浪費他的時間跟生命"},{"start":444.281,"end":461.859,"text":"另外一個亮點就是我們加入這個無人機的訓練課程那未來我們在國軍現有的這個無人機教官人力方面是不是充足那是否已經有完善的所有的教材還有在新訓中心是不是都已經建置好相關的訓練場地這個"},{"start":465.523,"end":487.345,"text":"因為現在陸海空軍都陸續要建制,陸軍的部分有陸軍,海軍在海軍陸戰隊,空軍的部分可能比較大型的無人機,所以這些無人機的型態越來越多,現在無人機我看日新月異吧,你可能過個半年、一年,整個迭代的發展就往上一直走,"},{"start":487.925,"end":501.541,"text":"所以無人機的訓練我們是越來越重視無人機的運用 做在運用上我們越來越重視那教官的這個部分呢坦白講就是說我們要結合民間的量人然後一起來做"},{"start":502.902,"end":523.46,"text":"那逐步來培養我們既有那當然如果照最後的目標當然都是人人都是能夠來實做來進行這個操作這個無人機這個部分是我們的一個目標但是這需要時間這需要時間好那最後一個問題我想就叫部長就是那"},{"start":524.401,"end":542.56,"text":"對於這個無人機的部分那未來退伍之後的這些軍事官有沒有可能會針對無人機的操作也納入教召我想這應該要納入教召以後14天我們有比較聰明的時間來讓他回復"},{"start":545.444,"end":561.55,"text":"這個他原本擁有的戰績這個部分只要想在尤其無人機的發展迅速的情況之下那麼我們有相關的這個新的配戶進來之後我想對於後叫召進來之後我們也要實施新的這個就"},{"start":562.41,"end":575.345,"text":"不只是無人機啦 也包括再有新的一些人襲式的一些武器等等的那還有他是屬於哪一個部隊的他也要到那個部隊去手洗他原來手洗的部分這樣子好 謝謝 謝謝部長"},{"start":578.288,"end":597.368,"text":"針對相關的訓練課程還有一些暫時需要的這些武器方面我想針對訓練方面一定要著重一定要扎實現在事實上重視的就是一個實作然後實戰的訓練這樣子好 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":491,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（11時14分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長午安。"],["顧部長立雄：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長，首先我想針對QDR結合國防部的相關報告來請教部長，依照國防法第三十一條規定，國防部應於每任總統就職十個月內，向立法院公開提出「四年期國防總檢討」。今年是自民國98年以來第五次公布，不過由於現在還有兩年一次的國防報告書，立法院每個會期一次的國防部業務報告。我想請教部長，您認為QDR內容的重要性為何？有沒有可能在未來與國防報告書進行整併？"],["顧部長立雄：你如果問我的話，因為QDR是現在國防法裡面明定的，美國已經沒有QDR了，就是四年期，美國是實施國防報告書，那我們要做國防報告書，因為QDR是法律明文規定，所以我們當然還是要做，如果大院覺得QDR跟國防報告書不需要這樣子重複的話，我們還是會出國防報告書，如果大院同意做這樣的修正，我也接受。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，因為如果重複性高的話，是整併比較不會那麼的繁瑣。"],["顧部長立雄：像美國已經沒有QDR。"],["陳委員俊宇：這次QDR所強調的其中一個主軸是建構敏捷的應變戰力，為了應對中共頻繁的侵擾，甚至在模擬臺灣的搶灘，或是仿臺灣的巷戰模式。另外，針對共軍可能由演轉戰、假戲真做的情況發生，國軍於3月17日到21日已經在舉行首次的立即戰備操演，藉此證明聯合作戰的計畫，確保各種作戰部隊能夠隨時從訓練轉變成備戰的狀態。對於這種情形，目前在進行中的立即備戰操演，今天已經第三天了，我想請教部長，中共有沒有可能因為我們這種立即備戰操演，而有更多的侵擾情形？"],["顧部長立雄：我沒有辦法排除中國可能以任何的理由或藉口來進行任何的軍事操演，從事這些灰色地帶的襲擾也好，或一些強度比較高的軍事操演也好，我們都隨時在運用我們聯合情監偵的手段來提早查知，繼而進行應對，所以我們才有所謂的非計劃性立即備戰操演。也就是說，過去他們操演，我們好像沒有任何的應對，而現在總長的要求是，他們演習，那我們相對應的也要預判他們可能的動作，也做相對應的操演，這就是實戰化訓練裡面的一環，我想這個部分是很重要的。在這個禮拜要進行的計畫性操演，是由我們自己也會由統裁部下狀況，下狀況以後來訓練、誘導他，然後進行這部分，也磨練指揮官的決策能力跟各部隊的應對能力，我想這個是很好的一種模式。"],["陳委員俊宇：未來有沒有可能針對這種立即備戰操演模式做常態執行，增加操演的次數？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在預計是每半年實施一次計畫性的立即備戰操演。另外，針對中國可能的針對性軍演，以總長下令，視他的強度，我們也會下令進行所謂的備戰操演。所以有分成計畫性跟非計畫性，計畫性就是上半年一次、下半年一次；非計畫性就是視他們一些針對性的軍演，這個軍演會由我們判斷，依照我們聯合情監偵所認為它的強度到達一定強度的時候，我們總長可能會下令去做立即備戰操演。"],["陳委員俊宇：部長，針對計畫性跟非計畫性的部分，我們有沒有可能在未來要操演的過程裡面，每次都會提前公布相關的期程嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們計畫性的備戰操演是在年度的訓練裡面，但是沒有主動對外公布。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外，我想就教部長的是一年期義務役相關議題，國防部在去年元月已經恢復一年期的義務役，根據行政院的報告顯示，去年的成效還算不錯，規劃今年起要入伍的新兵將在8週入伍訓練的過程中增加手槍和機槍實彈射擊，並接受無人機還有反裝甲火箭及刺針火箭操作等課程。我想請教在義務役8週的訓練過程裡面加入新式武器訓練之後，在時程的安排上是不是有充分的時間可以讓他們接受訓練？"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在就是提高入伍的訓練，單就入伍來講的話，不管志願役、一年期義務役跟四個月軍事訓練役，我們都統一調為8週，所以新增的項目都一樣，包括戰傷救護、快速反應射擊、震撼教育等等，強化單兵的戰鬥技能，完訓之後他至少要能夠成為一個合格的戰鬥兵，朝這個目標來做。義務役一年期的部分，還可以再加上他的駐地訓練、基地的訓練，使得他不但能夠操作，而且看他部隊的型態，能夠執行他的戰備任務。"],["陳委員俊宇：時間充裕就對了？"],["顧部長立雄：一年期的義務相對於四個月的軍事訓練役，我想訓練的時間相對的充裕，而且我們希望能夠紮實，不要讓他覺得是在浪費他的時間跟生命。"],["陳委員俊宇：另外一個亮點就是加入無人機的訓練課程，國軍現有的無人機教官人力方面是不是充足？是否已經有完善的教材？還有在新訓中心是不是都已經建置好相關的訓練場地？"],["顧部長立雄：因為陸、海、空軍現在都陸續在建置，陸軍的部分有陸軍，海軍在海軍陸戰隊，空軍的部分可能是比較大型的無人機，這些無人機的型態越來越多，現在的無人機我看是日新月異，可能過個半年、一年，整個迭代的發展就往上一直走，所以無人機的訓練，我們是越來越重視，無人機在作戰上的運用，我們越來越重視。教官的部分，坦白講我們要結合民間的量能一起來做，逐步來培養，當然到最後的目標是人人都能夠操作無人機，這是我們的一個目標，但是這需要時間。"],["陳委員俊宇：最後一個問題我想就教部長，未來有沒有可能把無人機的操作納入退伍軍士官的教召？"],["顧部長立雄：我想這應該要納入，教召以後14天，我們有比較充裕的時間來讓他回復原本擁有的戰技，尤其在無人機發展迅速的情況之下，我們有相關的新的配賦進來之後，以後教召也要實施新的，這不只是無人機，也包括新的一些人攜式的武器等等，還有他是屬於哪一個部隊的，他也要到那個部隊去熟悉原來部分。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝部長。我們針對相關的訓練課程，還有一些戰時需要的武器，我想一定要注重訓練，一定要紮實，才能夠……"],["顧部長立雄：現在事實上重視的就是實作，實戰的訓練。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}},{"id":"159366","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159366","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8a6ebe4bc015f1e12cea595bacfac0e479ba850061ce775096a92922fd67a804f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:04:20 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我想要請劉主委請劉主委"},{"start":18.249,"end":46.891,"text":"早安主委我想要請問一下其實在昨天有一個非常重大的消息就是美國的財政部長貝森特他說4月2號的時候那各國都會收到一個關稅編號那這個關稅編號就代表了各國要進口到美國商品的這個關稅水準"},{"start":48.683,"end":69.211,"text":"我想要請問主委的是我們到底有沒有跟美國預先有做任何的談判然後已經了解了這個關稅編號的內容以及我們即將要面對到的這樣子的一個關稅水準"},{"start":71.343,"end":98.825,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個負責處理的不在我這個層級但是就我的了解我們一直有持續的溝通那另外一個事情是說我們也有也有這個相關部會也在釐定這個萬一的因應措施那所以會在如果因為現在不知道結果是什麼所以所以等到有結果會有一些一系列的措施出現"},{"start":99.585,"end":124.371,"text":"所以目前我們還不了解這關稅編號的內容我們目前是有劇本然後有在溝通就是有scenario就是有一些就是我們演練的那個情境但是我們沒有辦法完全的掌握美國那邊也還沒有完全的確認嗎是不是應該是各國都在溝通但是各國都在準備劇本"},{"start":125.532,"end":149.507,"text":"所以各國都還不知道就是說他們所要面臨的這個問題是多少因為他是整個統籌在商務部到4月2號他才會正式的公佈因為他還會往上層到白宮嘛我們看到了其實現在就是他開針的這個對象裡面像加拿大墨西哥都是美國最第一第二名的這樣子前三名的這個進口國那"},{"start":151.548,"end":176.691,"text":"我們是我們是第八名喔對是不是對我們第八名但是對我們已經這邊有課徵到的是那個鋼鐵鋁的關稅對那如果未來他如果課徵對等關稅的時候我們台灣對有哪一些就是美國進口的產品那要課徵進口稅那如果"},{"start":177.532,"end":199.866,"text":"我們未來出口到美國的產品有哪一些會被美國科稅你的情境裡面按照美國的說法它有對等關稅的概念那其實稅則拿出來大概就可以看到了那我現在是有比較高層在負責這個部分的規劃我大概沒有辦法來回答這個問題"},{"start":201.107,"end":204.872,"text":"那這個規劃是有在進行中是我們副院長現在領導這個所以有多少進口關稅會被課對等關稅我們是相較是少的"},{"start":216.67,"end":242.023,"text":"它只有兩個原則一個就是降稅一個就是提稅只有兩個可能所以變因都存在但是因為每一個耗折都會不一樣舉個例子鋼鐵鋁增25%的稅因為台灣原來就是25%其實幾乎是沒有影響反而我們的競爭對手反而稅負提高了所以還是要看每一個不同產品的狀態有些產業我個人也去問過了"},{"start":245.345,"end":269.945,"text":"那有些產業像有些產業他認為如果全球一起爭他的競爭力不會改變那最主要一個點我也跟委員說明台灣一般來講這種貿易的交易都是採用FOB的報價就是離岸價格然後由進口商負責報稅報關稅然後付關稅進口所以在2017川普那一波的時候多數的稅金是由美國廠商"},{"start":270.726,"end":291.791,"text":"自行吸收但是也有部分廠商也有部分廠商他們覺得吸收不了就要求台灣的廠商搭配但是那要看每個廠商的bargain power那bargain power強的廠商是是就在上一波來講是沒有付關稅那有一些就會協助負擔這是他是一個協商的結果所以他整個的變動還是要看產業各個產業的情境"},{"start":294.79,"end":312.749,"text":"那但是因應這一波的關稅上漲調漲那也會造成了美國的物價上漲那美國物價上漲本來跟台灣是沒有相關性的但是如果我們有相關的產品出口到美國的時候那如果"},{"start":313.91,"end":338.281,"text":"在美國的廠商不下定那有可能他們預期就是說物價上漲導致於他們的銷量不好的情況下對於我們就會影響到我們國內的這樣子的製造業者那這一波就是大家非常擔心的也就是未來這個關稅的這個調整會不會影響到我們的出口的那個量"},{"start":341.632,"end":357.581,"text":"這個以2017、2018那個時候來看它的影響並沒有那麼大但這一波就比較要小心了因為這一波在原來2017、2018並沒有COVID-19造成的通膨跟戰爭造成通膨的因素但這一波是有"},{"start":358.141,"end":383.312,"text":"所以其实我们一直有在密切看每个月的美国零售指数跟这个就业的状态以及它的整个CPI的变动其实大家都在watch我们现在几乎是定期都在查这个数字这个数字会推估出来未来您提到这些情形存不存在因为我为什么会跟你说因为我已经有一些中小企业传产业者跟我说了"},{"start":383.792,"end":403.803,"text":"他們已經就是他們的訂單都縮減了那在這個情況下如果就是美國的消費的情況數字不清楚的情況下就會影響到台灣的相關的產業那如果這樣子的時候我們要如何因應那怎麼樣子協助台灣的產業度過這個我認為這也是非常重大的問題"},{"start":404.563,"end":432.218,"text":"這個大概實際要等負責單位提出來了我這邊講一下我們大概有幾個方向第一個就是出口的部分我們怎麼去降低成本包括在運費包括在保險這些地方另外在稅賦上面或是其他地方也沒有什麼可以補助的部分我們大概會依據產業別會有一些因應的措施等到出來以後我們就會依據那個狀況拿出我們的劇本"},{"start":432.998,"end":448.337,"text":"我們希望說行政部門真的要嚴加以待畢竟這個問題是非常嚴重的會影響到國內的這些傳產的業者那當然半導體也不用說了現在大家就在談半導體的問題嘛是不是那還有"},{"start":450.399,"end":474.097,"text":"那AI就是你這個就是你主摺了就是說我們AI我們說的是說到2028年我們AI的人才缺口會到達35萬人這是你們估計的那所以你有提出三個解方就是說高教人才產學共育還有延染外國人才這三方面那未來你如何"},{"start":475.458,"end":503.135,"text":"就是這三個部分你做的如何而且你在2025的階段性目標你能夠解決多少的AI人才的缺口我們目前有幾個在做的第一個是從校園校園我們推STAND的計畫就是讓一些非資訊科系的人可以去上資訊科系的課程那我們在去年這個部分已經達到了9萬多人了那第二個事情是我們從校外"},{"start":504.676,"end":519.843,"text":"輔導這個非資訊科技的在參加像從速發部這個經濟部輔導的民間包括甚至貢源院那國科會輔導的民間然後包括勞動部都有提供相關的畢業生的一些職業訓練"},{"start":521.164,"end":548.033,"text":"那這個訓練也會增加人數我們上次估了一下我們可以一年可以有大概12萬這樣的人數那另外一部分我們現在也會也會有橋外生的部分也會加入到這個領域來那另外我們最近如果我們的這個懶財專法這個公告之後我們也希望這個送去院來如果能過的話我們也希望利用這個懶財專法再吸引更多的人進來那你預計懶財專法可以吸引多少人"},{"start":549.094,"end":570.615,"text":"懶人尊法我們現在分兩階段第一個我們這邊做的是法令開放讓業者更容易進來那唯一比較能夠吸引到的會是稅賦的部分那稅賦的部分我們最近也會在利用那個時間去跟財政部去做溝通我們希望在稅賦上面能夠參考新加坡為標準來吸引"},{"start":571.721,"end":582.852,"text":"那這樣的話就會讓我們的稅負我們目前是這樣他的年薪超過300萬以上的部分我們給他打對折五年那我們希望把這個標準再往下降讓更多的人才肯進來"},{"start":583.683,"end":608.13,"text":"那雙重課稅呢?雙重課稅的部分雙重課稅是國與國之間那要看我們跟那些國家啦那目前我們比較有在進行中的是美國的部分那美國的部分在上一個會期是在眾議院那現在要等參議院那參議院現在是之前在拜登的時候在眾議院現在要等參議院的結果"},{"start":608.971,"end":625.518,"text":"那還有就是說我們根據Google Cloud跟人工智慧科技基金會的那個發布的報告裡面說明其實台灣的企業當中有69.3%的多數員工對於AI的知識了解都非常的"},{"start":626.403,"end":646.792,"text":"都偏低那這個部分怎麼樣協調各部會因為如果我們對於AI的知識了解的偏低的情況下未來要推動整個AI的整體發展以及我們國家的就是AI產業的相關的這個競爭力的時候就評比各方面就會相當的低那這個部分我們要怎麼加強"},{"start":648.438,"end":668.742,"text":"對 這個部分應該我會找這個速發部來討論我們怎麼去協助兩個部分一個是企業資訊的部分一個是我們怎麼去提供更多的資資庫讓企業在訓練上面可以引用這些資資庫的教師來幫忙那另外我們也會試著在"},{"start":671.463,"end":683.847,"text":"這個上市櫃協會這邊去這個公司相關的公司這邊去推動這樣的一個實質指導庫那另外就是我們現在有政府提供的一些教育訓練我們會更加的宣導去讓這個產業能夠派人來參加這樣的訓練好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":468,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時4分）謝謝主席，我想要請劉主委。"],["主席：請劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：召委早安。"],["謝委員衣鳯：主委，我想要請問一下，其實在昨天有一個非常重大的消息，就是美國的財政部長貝森特說4月2號各國都會收到一個關稅編號，這個關稅編號就代表了各國商品要進口到美國的關稅水準。我想要請問主委的是，我們到底有沒有跟美國預先做任何的談判，然後已經了解這個關稅編號的內容，以及我們即將要面對到的關稅水準？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，這件事負責處理的不在我這個層級，但是就我的了解，我們一直有持續溝通。另外一個事情是，我們相關部會也在擬定因應措施，因為現在不知道結果是什麼……"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以代表……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以等到有結果會有一系列的措施出現。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以目前我們還不了解這個關稅編號的內容？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們目前是有劇本，然後有在溝通。"],["謝委員衣鳯：就是有scenario，有一些我們演練的情境……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，有scenario。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是我們沒有辦法完全的掌握，美國那邊也還沒有完全確認，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：應該是各國都在溝通，但是各國都在準備劇本。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以各國都還不知道他們所要面臨的這個問題是多少？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它是整個統籌在商務部，到4月2號才會正式公布，因為它還會往上呈到白宮，白宮的決策還不知道。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，因為我們看到了其實現在它開徵的對象裡面，像加拿大、墨西哥，都是美國前三名的進口國，我們是第八名，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們是第八名，但是對我們已經……這邊有課徵到的是鋼鐵、鋁的關稅。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，如果未來它課徵對等關稅的時候，我們臺灣對哪一些美國進口的產品要課徵進口稅？我們未來出口到美國的產品，有哪一些會被美國課稅？在你的情境裡面。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：按照美國的說法，它有對等關稅的概念，其實稅則拿出來大概就可以看到了，我們現在是由比較高層在負責這個部分的規劃，我大概沒有辦法來回答這個問題。這個規劃有在進行中，是我們副院長正在領導這整體的規劃。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以有多少進口關稅會被課對等關稅？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們相較是少的，這個部分只有兩個原則，一個就是降稅，一個就是提稅，只有兩個可能，這個變因都存在，但是因為每一個號則都會不一樣，舉個例子，鋼鐵、鋁徵25%的稅，因為臺灣原來就是25%，其實幾乎是沒有影響，但我們的競爭對手反而稅負提高了，所以還是要看不同產品的狀態。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那銅、木材呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我個人也去問過了，有些產業認為如果全球一起徵，它的競爭力不會改變。最主要一個點也跟委員說明，一般來講臺灣這種貿易的交易都是採用FOB的報價，就是離岸價格，然後由進口商負責報關稅、付關稅進口，所以在2017川普那一波的時候，多數的稅金是由美國廠商負責。"],["謝委員衣鳯：自行吸收。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：但是也有部分廠商覺得吸收不了，就要求臺灣的廠商搭配，但是那要看每個廠商的bargain power，bargain power強的廠商在上一波來講是沒有付關稅，有一些就會協助負擔，這是一個協商的結果，所以它整個的變動還是要看各個產業的情境。"],["謝委員衣鳯：但是因為因應這一波關稅的上漲、調漲，也會造成美國的物價上漲，美國物價上漲本來跟臺灣是沒有相關性的，但是如果我們有相關的產品出口到美國的時候，在美國的廠商不下訂，有可能在他們預期物價上漲導致銷量不好的情況下，就會影響到我們國內的製造業者。這一波就是大家非常擔心的，也就是未來關稅的調整，會不會影響到我們出口的量？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：以2017、2018那個時候來看，它的影響並沒有那麼大，但這一波就比較要小心了，因為原來2017、2018並沒有像COVID-19造成的通膨跟戰爭造成的通膨因素，但這一波是有，所以其實我們一直密切在看每個月美國零售指數跟就業的狀態，以及它整個CPI的變動，其實大家都在watch，我們現在幾乎是定期都在查這個數字，這個數字會推估出來未來您提到的這些情形存不存在。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我為什麼會跟你說，因為已經有一些中小企業、傳產業者跟我說了，他們的訂單都縮減了，如果在美國消費數字不清楚的情況下，就會影響到臺灣相關的產業，我們要如何因應、協助臺灣的產業度過難關？我認為這也是非常重大的問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：實際要等負責的單位提出來，我這邊講一下，我們大概有幾個方向：第一個，出口的部分，我們怎麼去降低成本，包括在運費，包括在保險這些地方。另外在稅負上面或是其他地方有沒有什麼可以補助的部分，我們大概依據產業別會有一些因應的措施，等到出來以後，我們就會依據那個狀況，拿出我們的劇本。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們希望行政部門真的要嚴加以待，畢竟這個問題是非常嚴重的，會影響到國內這些傳產的業者，當然半導體也不用說了，現在大家就在談半導體的問題嘛，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：至於AI這個就是你主責了，我們說到2028年，AI的人才缺口會到達35萬人，這是你們估計的，所以你有提出三個解方，高教人才、產學共育，還有延攬外國人才這三方面，這三個部分你做得如何？而且在2025的階段性目標，你能夠解決多少AI人才的缺口？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們目前有幾個在做的，第一個，是從校園推STEM計畫，就是讓一些非資訊科系的人可以去上資訊科系的課程，我們去年這個部分已經達到了九萬多人。第二個事情是，我們從校外輔導非資訊科系者參加像數發部、經濟部甚至包括工研院、國科會輔導的民間單位，包括勞動部，都有提供相關畢業生的一些職業訓練，這個訓練也會增加人數，我們上次估了一下，一年大概可以有十二萬這樣的人數。另外，我們現在也會有僑外生的部分，也會加入到這個領域來。再來，最近如果我們的攬才專法公告之後，我們也希望送鈞院如果能過的話，也希望利用這個攬才專法再吸引更多的人進來。"],["謝委員衣鳯：你預計攬才專法可以吸引多少人？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在攬才專法分兩階段，第一個，我們這邊做的是法令開放，讓業者更容易進來，唯一比較能夠吸引到的會是稅負的部分，而稅負的部分，我們最近也會利用時間去跟財政部溝通，希望在稅負上面能夠參考新加坡為標準來吸引，目前是這樣，年薪超過三百萬以上的部分，我們給他打對折5年，我們希望把這個標準再往下降，讓更多的人才可以進來。"],["謝委員衣鳯：雙重課稅的部分呢？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：雙重課稅是國與國之間，要看我們跟那些國家啦！目前我們比較有在進行中的是與美國的部分，而美國上一個會期是在眾議院，現在要等參議院，就是之前在拜登的時候是在眾議院，現在要等參議院的結果。"],["謝委員衣鳯：另外根據Google 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我想請來劉靜慶劉主委好 劉主委"},{"start":21.626,"end":41.516,"text":"因為國家發展計畫每四年都會推一次從您上來之後 您去年8月推出一個新的版本就是114年到117年的一個國家計畫我發現你這裡面用了一個比較特別的字眼你講到一個後全球化的新冷戰時代"},{"start":43.158,"end":57.335,"text":"那我想問一下就從主委的角度來看的時候全球化的示威大概在什麼時候那碰到這個新冷戰時代的時候台灣應該要怎麼做才能夠跟上這樣的腳步全球化開始"},{"start":58.985,"end":81.744,"text":"受到比較大的挑戰事實上從2017年就開始逐步到了疫情期間各國也紛紛發現他必須擁有自己比較安全的供應鏈去穩固自己國家的安全所以呢以美國為首開始推動這個法案14017的法案去進行這個安全供應鏈的推動"},{"start":82.284,"end":99.837,"text":"那這個熱性供應鏈的推動其實在各個國家都有類似的現象開始發生所以你在這邊講到全球化是你覺得是從COVID-19之後的時候開始做一些調整你定義是這樣子啦OK那這沒問題喔而且從美中貿易開始在2017開始從美中貿易這個部分就出現了"},{"start":100.598,"end":126.447,"text":"OK那我在想說針對這個部分因為你特別提到了一個針對大陸的一個和平崛起大家覺得夢想幻滅那你這邊是不是有特別的訊息覺得說會進入到一個武力崛起的一個過程還是一個對兩岸的衝突你這邊是不是有特別的一個訊息我這邊倒是我們比較從經濟的角度去看整個產業的發展到比較沒有從"},{"start":127.492,"end":138.304,"text":"所以如果從經濟的角度來看的時候那怎麼會因為經濟就是一個和平崛起的一個動作為什麼會覺得經濟的角度來看的時候你們也不覺得說它是一個和平崛起的過程"},{"start":140.134,"end":160.3,"text":"你如果以從中國經濟過去而言他他也是一個和平的崛起他並沒有沒有任何的軍事的崛起那如果是這個部分的時候面臨的壓力應該是說在高高速發展之後所產生的一些效應包括全球化造成他的產業也開始在外移嗎"},{"start":161.441,"end":177.801,"text":"所以基本上因為是整個產業化的外移或者他們你基本上因為他是經濟上的崛起你覺得他其實還是一個和平崛起的一個過程啦是不是對他是和平的但他遇到兩個問題第一個成本變高了第二個事情是2017開始美國關稅之後他的產業開始進行外移"},{"start":179.422,"end":207.467,"text":"對 可是成本變高跟產業壞壞基本上都還是一個和平的動作因為我只是針對這部分有一個定義上的一個聊因為我本來想說你這邊也許會有一些國發會也許會有一些特別的一個訊息會覺得更敏感覺得說兩岸搞不好會有一些爭端或者是怎麼樣子那如果沒有的時候我就進入下面一個部分因為在109年就是蔡總統第二屆任期她提出一個六大核心戰略那去年的時候我們提出五大信賴產業那麼今天你在"},{"start":208.187,"end":235.701,"text":"又報告到你也把這個五大信貸產業當作一個很重要的部分在第一段就特別去講那我就很認真的去看了一個六大核心戰略跟五大信貸產業當中的一個差別那五大信貸產業當中包括半導體 AI 軍工 安控跟世代通訊這些部分的時候呢大概在六大核心戰略產業當中大概可以用字當然不一樣可是用字基本上來說大概就是在整個資訊及數位 國防及戰略還有"},{"start":237.542,"end":260.995,"text":"資産卓越這三個部分大概就涵蓋了就是五大信貸產業所以我比較好奇的是在六大核心戰略當中的時候呢台灣精準醫療民生及戰備還有綠電及再生能源的部分就在整個五大信貸產業當中其實感覺是消失的那對於這個部分的時候主委這邊有沒有什麼要特別補充覺得說這樣的一個調整主要是在哪裡"},{"start":262.881,"end":290.254,"text":"基本上我們目前我們的看法是這樣六大核心戰略是要必須被延續的那五大信任產業是在這個延續的過程中我們要更大強化的區域那所以舉個例子在精準醫療的部分現在總統在推動健康台灣那他就有更大的包容性在這裡面所以他基本上他本身是一個持續性的政策推動"},{"start":290.974,"end":305.446,"text":"所以你認為六大核心災害還是整個持續的只是這個當中的時候把五個產業當中特別挑出來去做重點的一個強化是這個意思嗎因為我們必須建立於過去的基礎上繼續發展"},{"start":307.247,"end":322.259,"text":"那我想問一下針對那個目前其實在整個費用產業鏈當中的時候其實我們知道無人機大聯盟在台灣開始也非常的蓬勃針對這個部分的時候我們是不是有特別的一個政策傾斜要如何去做這無人機大聯盟"},{"start":323.32,"end":336.328,"text":"無人機的部分是我們現在是委由經濟部在主導成立了一個大聯盟那也成立了嘉義的無人機專區也有一些研究基地那我們現在從國科會也開始在輔導資助這個關鍵晶片的研發所以我們從整個晶片到它的陀螺儀也好到雲台也好整個"},{"start":350.936,"end":370.211,"text":"整個產業鏈我們都做了一個精密的分析因為無人機它真的很特殊因為目前也許台灣在發展的是一個商用無人機可是因為商用無人機跟軍用無人機來說坦白說在一線之隔那我在想說這個部分的時候我想無人機其實某一個部分其實是台灣有條件去發展"},{"start":371.132,"end":387.86,"text":"所以本席對這個部分其實也有一些相當的期待因為我覺得這個部分對台灣來說不管是從經濟角度或從安全的角度來看都會有一些注意所以我們希望這部分能夠特別的去加強好 謝謝那接下來是我想問一下其實因為就是"},{"start":389.962,"end":405.083,"text":"國發會這邊影響了很多跨單位的一個政策那107年的時候國發會出面主導的時候經濟部就公告了一個企業級法人申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習要點那這個實習要點當中的時候呢目前來看它就是"},{"start":407.014,"end":435.503,"text":"國外學生到台灣來實習那用的是停留簽證可以停留六個月六個月之後要再出去一次再進來六個月目前的機制是不是這樣子主委就我了解的是是這樣子我們也有接到業者的澄清跟反應我們也把這個意見反映到這個經濟部希望這個部分能夠有一些考慮目前我想他們還在政府的意見之間的整合"},{"start":436.823,"end":449.749,"text":"所以國發會這邊已經有把這個意見就是轉給了經濟部對不對因為時間太短尤其是李學業的反應比較多所以我們就把這個反應意見也給到了"},{"start":450.592,"end":475.478,"text":"OK那因為那個旅館業其實從今年今年可以改成兩年了旅屬業已經開放了對旅館業已經改成兩年了對這個就是我要問的接下來的點因為旅館業改成兩年非旅館業的部分都還是六個月而且他們用的簽證也都不一樣所以來台灣實習的學生所操作的對待也都不一樣所以本席在這邊是希望說能夠一體試用"},{"start":477.058,"end":495.114,"text":"也許都能夠比照旅宿業都讓他們來的時間長一點讓他們學習能夠完整一點然後針對這個部分您剛剛說您已經轉交給經濟部指的就是這個部分是不是我之前反映的是旅宿業我想您這邊有其他行業的話我也會會後會會找"},{"start":497.436,"end":515.414,"text":"我們希望所有的產業先能夠一體化不要一國兩制同樣一個外國學生到台灣來實習的狀態還有兩種不同的標準兩種被對待的方式好 那接下來的時候我再請教一個部分就是"},{"start":518.713,"end":541.749,"text":"我問一個啦,N-1的部分,剛剛很多委員都特別提到,我想問一下主委,N-1的部分,我們的法源依據是來自於哪裡,你知道嗎?N-1主要就我了解,原來只是對中國的部分,但是這個在審核技術上面,因為我們從國家安全的角度,我們會在這個,將來在這個投審的部分,我們也會特別關注這個領域。"},{"start":543.595,"end":564.186,"text":"因為你剛剛提到一個點就是因為N-1的原則是在大陸地區投資晶圓鑄造廠相關的部分的一個要點當中的一個部分因為N-1的法源依據在這裡那我們現在如果說要一體適用的時候那我在想說也許我們在法規面的部分也許要盡量讓它更完善一點"},{"start":565.086,"end":575.958,"text":"好不好好的那原來是可以引用國家安全但是我想委員的建議也很有道理我會找經濟部我們針對這一點來來做強化OK好謝謝主委謝謝好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":420,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時54分）謝謝主席，我想請一下劉鏡清劉主委。"],["主席：好，劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：鄭委員早。"],["鄭委員正鈐：主委好。因為國家發展計畫每四年都會推一次，從您上來之後，您在去年8月推出一個新的版本，就是114年到117年的國家計畫。我發現你用了一個比較特別的字眼，你講到「後全球化的新冷戰時代」。我想問一下，從主委的角度來看，全球化的式微大概在什麼時候？碰到新冷戰時代的時候，臺灣應該要怎麼做才能夠跟上這樣的腳步？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：事實上全球化開始受到比較大的挑戰是從2017年就逐步開始；到了疫情期間，各國也紛紛發現必須擁有自己比較安全的供應鏈去穩固自己國家的安全，所以就開始以美國為首推動14017號法案進行安全供應鏈的推動，其實韌性供應鏈的推動在各個國家都有類似的現象開始發生。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你講到全球化的時候，你覺得是從COVID-19之後開始做一些調整，你的定義是這樣子啦！OK，這沒問題……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：而且是從美中貿易開始、從2017年開始。"],["鄭委員正鈐：從美中貿易這個部分……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，就出現了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。針對這個部分，因為你特別提到針對大陸的和平崛起，大家覺得夢想幻滅，你這邊是不是有特別的訊息覺得說會進入武力崛起的過程？還是兩岸的衝突？你這邊是不是有得到特別的訊息？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們比較是從經濟的角度去看整個產業的發展，比較沒有從……"],["鄭委員正鈐：如果從經濟的角度來看，怎麼會……因為經濟就是一個和平崛起的動作，為什麼會覺得從經濟這個角度來看的時候，你們也不覺得它是一個和平崛起的過程？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：從過去中國的經濟而言，它也是一個和平的崛起，並沒有任何軍事的崛起。但現在它所面臨的壓力應該是在高速發展之後所產生的一些效應，包括全球化造成它的產業也開始在外移……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以基本上因為是整個產業化的外移或者他們……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它是從2017年開始進行外移……"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為它是經濟上的崛起，你覺得它其實還是一個和平崛起的過程，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，它是和平的，但它遇到兩個問題：第一個是成本變高了；第二個是2017年美國加徵關稅之後，它的產業就開始進行外移。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，可是成本變高跟產業外移基本上都還是一個和平的動作，因為我只是想針對這部分有一個定義上的瞭解。我本來想說你是國發會，也許會有一些特別的訊息，或更敏感覺得兩岸搞不好會有一些爭端或者是怎麼樣，如果沒有的話，我就進入下一個部分。","在109年蔡總統第二任期的時候，他提出了一個六大核心戰略，然後去年政府提出五大信賴產業，今天你在業務報告當中，也把五大信賴產業當作一個很重要的部分，在第一部分就特別去講，所以我就很認真的去看了六大核心戰略跟五大信賴產業當中的差別。五大信賴產業當中包括半導體、AI、軍工、安控跟次世代通訊等部分；而六大核心戰略產業當中，用字當然不一樣，可是基本上在資訊及數位、國防及戰略、資安卓越這三個部分大概就涵蓋了五大信賴產業。我比較好奇的是，六大核心戰略當中的臺灣精準醫療、民生及戰備、綠電及再生能源等部分卻感覺在五大信賴產業中消失了！對於這個部分，主委有沒有什麼要特別補充的？你覺得這樣的調整主要是差在哪裡？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：基本上目前我們的看法是，六大核心戰略是必須要被延續的，而五大信賴產業則是在這個延續的過程中，我們要更強化的區域。舉個例子，在精準醫療的部分，現在總統在推動健康臺灣，它就有更大的包容性在裡面，所以基本上它本身是一個持續性的政策推動。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以你認為六大核心戰略還是整個持續的，只是在這個當中把五個產業特別挑出來做重點的強化，是這個意思嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，因為我們必須建立在過去的基礎上繼續發展，才不會浪費資源。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。我想問一下，目前在整個非紅產業鏈當中，我們知道無人機大聯盟在臺灣也開始非常的蓬勃，針對這個部分，我們是不是有特別的政策傾斜，要如何去做無人機大聯盟？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：無人機的部分，我們現在是委由經濟部主導，成立了一個大聯盟，也成立了嘉義的無人機專區，也有一些研究基地，現在國科會也開始在輔導、資助關鍵晶片的研發，所以我們從整個晶片到它的陀螺儀也好，到雲台也好，整個產業鏈我們都做了一個精密的分析。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，因為無人機真的很特殊，目前也許臺灣在發展的是商用無人機，可是商用無人機跟軍用無人機，坦白說是一線之隔，我想無人機其實某一個部分臺灣有條件去發展，所以本席對這個部分其實也有一些相當的期待，因為我覺得這個部分對臺灣來說，不管是從經濟角度或從安全的角度來看，都會有一些助益，所以我們希望這部分能夠特別去加強。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["鄭委員正鈐：接下來我想問一下，國發會影響了很多跨單位的政策，107年國發會出面主導的時候，經濟部就公告了企業及法人申請外國籍學生來中華民國實習要點，在這個實習要點當中，目前來看就是國外的學生到臺灣來實習，用的是停留簽證，可以停留6個月，6個月之後要再出去一次，再進來6個月，目前的機制是不是這樣子，主委？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：就我的了解是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是這樣子喔。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們也有接到業者的陳情跟反映，也有把這個意見反映到經濟部，希望這個部分能夠有一些考慮，我想他們目前還在正負意見之間的整合。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以國發會這邊已經有把這個意見轉給經濟部，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為時間太短，然後還要再出國……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：尤其是旅宿業者反映的比較多，所以我們就把這個反映意見也給到。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，因為旅館業其實從今年……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：抱歉，今年可以改成2年了，旅宿業已經開放了。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，旅館業已經改成2年了，這個就是我接下來要問的點，因為旅館業改成2年，非旅館業的部分都還是6個月，而且他們用的簽證也都不一樣，所以來臺灣實習的學生所遭受的對待也都不一樣，本席在這邊是希望能夠一體適用，也許都能夠比照旅宿業，讓他們來的時間長一點，讓他們的學習能夠完整一點。針對這個部分，您剛剛說已經轉交給經濟部，指的就是這個部分，是不是？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我之前反映的是旅宿業，我想您這邊有其他行業的話，會後我也會找……"],["鄭委員正鈐：我們希望所有的產業能夠一體化，不要一國兩制，同樣一個外國學生到臺灣來實習的狀態，還有兩種不同的標準、兩種被對待的方式。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：接下來我再請教一下N-1的部分，剛剛很多委員都特別提到，我想問一下主委，N-1的部分，我們的法源依據是來自於哪裡，你知道嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：N-1就我的了解，原來只是對中國的部分，但是這個在審核技術上面，我們從國家安全的角度來看，將來在投審的部分也會特別關注這個領域。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，因為你剛剛提到一個點，就是N-1原則其實是在大陸地區投資晶圓鑄造廠相關部分的作業要點當中的一部分，N-1的法源依據在這裡，我們現在如果要一體適用，我想也許在法規面的部分要儘量讓它更完善一點，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，原來是可以引用國家安全，但是我想委員的建議也很有道理，我會找經濟部針對這一點來做強化。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，謝謝主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（呂委員玉玲代）：請謝衣鳯召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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接下來有請部長有請部長 謝謝謝謝部長部長我在這裡我想首先請您說明一下您知道本席其實也有提軍事審判法的修法"},{"start":23.716,"end":47.516,"text":"我有看到您提出來是有關軍事審判法的三四條的修正好 請問一下就是就您的這個法律的解釋我本席所修的軍事審判法第三四條的修法這個是像現在的國防部所講的是暫時跟平時都要恢復軍事審判嗎我的修法裡面有這麼說嗎"},{"start":51.46,"end":71.87,"text":"您的修法34條主要是就犯罪事實是一部那現行是要因依刑事審判法追訴審判時全部依刑事審判法追訴審判那您要修改成犯罪事實是一部因依這個就是所謂的軍事審判法來追訴審判的時候全部依軍事審判法來追訴審判這樣"},{"start":72.87,"end":87.984,"text":"所以呢,我現在修了這個法的目的,我本來是要幫你們國防部解決問題的結果現在好像外界都認為說,我修了這個法是代表說在連平常的時期都要適用軍事審判,是這樣的意思嗎?呃,我想我沒有這樣說了"},{"start":92.925,"end":106.195,"text":"所以部長您的看法呢是不是我現在修的版本只是在強調暫時的時候如果當軍人同時違反陸海空軍刑法跟普通刑法的時候才交由軍事審判審理而不是跟你們現在所講的軍事審判法的修法的方向是不一樣的"},{"start":112.945,"end":127.445,"text":"對 那因為這一條有關又是屬於所謂的普通法跟特別法兩最競合的部分那一 特別法優先的原則的話就優先適用軍審判進行追溯審判我想這部分的修法在我們日後的修法方向也是會如此的"},{"start":127.765,"end":131.626,"text":"好 那麼所以我再次強調我的修法 我修軍事審判法我並不是認為說是要在平時時期就要恢復軍事審判制度要不恢復軍事審判制度未來軍法官的參審制如何這個我覺得還需要更仔細的討論那接下來我想要請教這個部長一個問題就是說"},{"start":148.251,"end":156.138,"text":"你們這次所提出來的未來在軍人職務上犯罪的時候不管是在戰時和平時都要交由軍事審判審理請問現在實務上是出現什麼問題嗎交由普通法院審理有治安難行的地方嗎"},{"start":163.847,"end":177.52,"text":"我想我在這裡最主要的一個考量就是說如果平時不重新打造一個新的軍事審判制度的話暫時幾乎是不可能有那個能量來從事軍事審判的因為"},{"start":178.621,"end":196.065,"text":"他就荒廢了嘛因為他已經荒廢了這麼久了那所以如果現在我講了所以我一直在講說我不是要恢復過去那個被人詬病的軍事審判而是我要重新打造一個合乎正當程序公平審判原則的一個新的軍事審判那暫時的時候才能夠才能夠真正的能夠有這個能量來進行這個所謂的因為現在還是在平時暫時二元化的狀態我想是這樣因為民進黨政府執政已經到現在九年了"},{"start":208.707,"end":233.05,"text":"這九年裡面 民進黨政府從來沒有考慮過軍事審判沒有考慮過軍法官的他們的生涯他們如何要培養在民進黨政府執政這些年來 我們軍法官已經停招12年了在上個會期 本席不斷地強調希望國防部能夠先恢復軍法官考試請問你們今年會恢復軍法官考試嗎"},{"start":234.301,"end":251.706,"text":"這一點我們還要跟這個考試院那邊做一個所以你們連軍法官都沒有想到說要現在恢復考試就要來修改教育制度跟委員報告我覺得我比較傾向也是一個多元選材的一個觀念也就是說"},{"start":252.586,"end":269.083,"text":"我過去以來長期這個從事這方面的部分喔單單考試這一個部分喔不足以來確定這一個軍法官的素質所以軍法官的養成跟軍法官的多元選才這些相關的配套是我們現在在思考的一個重點也就是說"},{"start":270.805,"end":287.653,"text":"按照您的说法您就是不相信现在军方这个国防大学他们可能有能力去培养军法人才需要从外界再去寻求其他的管道来这个甄选军法官我希望有一个我希望有一个司法院"},{"start":288.513,"end":306.52,"text":"基本上也有多元選才 多元領選司法官的途徑可是參加真實的人非常非常的少現在人越來越多了請你們去跟司法院去要資料我現在要講一下 現在每年有多少件的軍人案件司法院之前曾經發布了一個新聞稿說每年有多少個軍人案件"},{"start":315.154,"end":334.299,"text":"我們現在沒有辦法百分之百確定剛剛已經回答林柱英委員的問題就是說他現在有關軍人涉犯這個犯罪的時候有可能是一般刑法的犯罪有可能是這個陸海公行法第三篇的也有可能是陸海公行法第二篇的所以我們要去確認一下我想我在這邊再講個事實從109年到113年期間其實這個"},{"start":343.614,"end":362.528,"text":"違反國防違反國安相關特定案件的案子頂多也只有103件那麼就司法院他們這三年以來他們所收到的有跟軍人有關的案子不翻剛剛部長您說的是什麼樣子的一個犯罪行為總之是交由普通法院來審理的"},{"start":363.709,"end":387.447,"text":"也不過是佔他們的0.12%也就是一萬件的新收案件當中與軍人有關的只有12件這是地方法院受理的高等法院受理的呢一萬件的案件當中只有27件是與軍人有關的其實這個案件數基本上是佔整個的法院的受理案件數是非常非常低的"},{"start":389.181,"end":396.284,"text":"我認為說你們今天是不相信我們的法院法官有足夠的能力可以去去審理與軍人有關的這個案件嗎"},{"start":402.408,"end":420.68,"text":"我剛剛跟委員報告了就我個人觀點我還是比較重視在平戰轉換這一個部分平時要建立重新打造一個新的軍事咱們的制度暫時才能夠有那個能量來我們看一下您過去怎麼說您過去說這個您不相信軍人的軍事審判有獨立性的可能要恢復軍事審判您現在是說要全新打造一個全新的軍事審判制度"},{"start":429.69,"end":437.835,"text":"可是過去從來沒有規劃 現在突然之間要冒出來說要打造全新的軍事審判制度而且在非常短期之內就要做完 有可能嗎而且這個一個很嚴重的問題就是你現在軍事法院的審判跟普通法院的審判未來的職權要怎麼樣去釐清 以剛剛講的那個什麼中間人的犯罪案件來看"},{"start":455.425,"end":483.179,"text":"他的正犯是在軍事審判由郊遊軍事法院來審理那他這個中間人他可能教書犯或幫助犯用郊遊一般的法院來審理這不會出現一個這個未來在這個訴訟審理上面的矛盾嗎所以有關這個部分就是涉及到司審跟上訴審的救濟問題這個部分我們會跟司法院跟法務部來做一個協商所以我在想你們其實目的還是想一網打盡"},{"start":484.625,"end":510.614,"text":"不管勝犯是不是職業軍人然後只要是中間有可能跟這個軍人有關的未來所有的案件都會併到軍事法院來一起審判從你們現在的規劃來講其實就可以看出來這樣的矛盾委員您應該很清楚這個憲法就保障非軍事非現役軍人不受軍事審判這我非常的清楚所以這也是我們現在在考慮你們現在所提出來的這樣的問題"},{"start":515.35,"end":517.571,"text":"請不要忘記您過去曾經說過什麼您不相信軍事審判制度的你認為說軍事審判它還是有這個軍法官還是有服從這個軍階服從上級還是有軍階服從上級掌管命令的義務所以我希望您能夠這個警禁之前說的話不要說現在換了一個總統就換了一套說法然後軍事審判制度基本上我沒有反對但是必須要"},{"start":544.838,"end":546.08,"text":"深刻的必須要這個精心的來這個研擬規劃我們不希望看到軍法官來背黑鍋"},{"start":555.748,"end":575.967,"text":"因為法院不敢判的現在交由軍法官來判法院判輕的未來要求軍法官要判重我不願意看到我們的軍事審判制度未來變成民進黨這個遂行要去整肅一己的手段好 謝謝我想我會本以初衷我們就是保障人權兼顧真實的發現還有這一個"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":438,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時4分）主席好。接下來有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝部長。部長，首先請您說明一下，您知道本席其實也有提軍事審判法的修法。"],["顧部長立雄：我有看到您提出來是有關軍事審判法第三十四條的修正。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，請問一下，就您法律的解釋，本席所修的軍事審判法第三十四條的修法，是像現在國防部所講的是戰時跟平時都要恢復軍事審判嗎？我的修法裡面有這麼說嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：您的修法第三十四條主要是就犯罪事實是一部，現行是要應依刑事審判法追訴審判時，全部依刑事訴訟法審判，你要修改成犯罪事實是一部，應依所謂的軍事審判法來追訴審判的時候，全部依軍事審判法來追訴審判。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以呢？我現在修了這個法的目的，我本來是要幫你們國防部解決問題的，結果現在好像外界都認為我修了這個法，是代表連平常的時期都要適用軍事審判，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我想我沒有這樣說。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，所以部長的看法呢？是不是我現在修的版本只是在強調戰時的時候，如果當軍人同時違反陸海空軍刑法跟普通刑法的時候，才交由軍事審判審理。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["翁委員曉玲：而不是跟你們現在所講的軍事審判法的修法方向是不一樣的。"],["顧部長立雄：對，因為這一條是屬於普通法跟特別法兩罪競合的部分，依特別法優先的原則，就優先適用軍事審判法進行追訴審判，我想這部分的修法在我們日後的修法方向也是會如此的。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我再次強調，我的修法、我修軍事審判法，我並不是認為在平時時期就要恢復軍事審判制度，要不要恢復軍事審判制度、未來軍法官的參審制如何，這個我覺得還需要更仔細的討論。接下來我想要請教部長一個問題，你們這次所提出來，未來軍人在職務上犯罪的時候，不管是在戰時跟平時都要交由軍事審判審理，請問現在實務上是出現什麼問題嗎？交由普通法院審理有窒礙難行的地方嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我在這裡最主要的一個考量是，如果平時不重新打造一個新的軍事審判制度的話，戰時幾乎是不可能有那個能量來從事軍事審判的，因為它就荒廢了，因為它已經荒廢了這麼久了。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["顧部長立雄：所以我一直在講我不是要回復過去那個被人詬病的軍事審判，而是我要重新打造一個合乎正當程序、公平審判原則的一個新的軍事審判制度……"],["翁委員曉玲：好，部長，謝謝……"],["顧部長立雄：戰時的時候才能真的有能量來進行所謂的……因為現在還是在平時、戰時二元化的狀態。"],["翁委員曉玲：我瞭解了，謝謝部長，我想是這樣，因為民進黨政府執政到現在已經9年了，這9年裡面，民進黨政府從來沒有考慮過軍事審判、沒有考慮過軍法官他們的生涯，他們要如何培養，在民進黨政府執政這些年來，我們軍法官已經停招12年了，在上個會期，本席不斷地強調希望國防部能夠先恢復軍法官考試，請問你們今年會恢復軍法官考試嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：這一點我們還要跟考試院那邊做一個……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以你們連軍法官都沒有想到要先恢復考試，就要來修改軍事審判制度……"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，我覺得我比較傾向也是一個多元選才的觀念，我過去以來長期從事這方面的部分，單單靠考試這一個部分不足以確定軍法官的素質，所以軍法官的養成跟多元選才，這些相關的配套，是我們現在在思考的一個重點，也就是說……"],["翁委員曉玲：謝謝部長，按照您的說法，您就是不相信現在軍方、國防大學他們可能有能力去培養軍法人才，說要從外界再去尋求其他的管道來甄選軍法官……"],["顧部長立雄：我希望有一個……"],["翁委員曉玲：你自己也知道，其實現在司法院基本上也有多元選才、多元遴選司法官的途徑。"],["顧部長立雄：對。"],["翁委員曉玲：可是參加甄試的人非常非常的少，另外我還要再講一個……"],["顧部長立雄：沒有喔！現在人越來越多了。"],["翁委員曉玲：請你們去跟司法院要資料。我現在要講一下，現在每年有多少件的軍人案件？就是法院，司法院之前曾經發布了一個新聞稿說每年有多少個軍人案件。"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在沒有辦法百分之百確定，剛剛已經有回答林楚茵委員的問題，現在有關軍人涉案、犯罪的時候，有可能是一般刑法的犯罪，有可能是陸海空軍刑法第三編的，也有可能是陸海空軍刑法第二編的，所以我們要去確認一下。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝部長的說明。我在這邊再講個事實，從109年到113年期間，其實違反國安相關特定案件的案子，頂多也只有103件，就司法院這三年以來收到跟軍人有關的案子，不分剛剛部長說的是什麼樣子的犯罪行為，總之是交由普通法院來審理的，也不過是占他們的0.12%，也就是1萬件的新收案件當中，與軍人有關的只有12件，這是地方法院受理的；而高等法院受理的，1萬件的案件當中，只有27件是與軍人有關的。其實這個案件數基本上占整個法院的受理案件數是非常非常低的，我認為你們今天是不相信我們的法院、法官有足夠的能力可以去審理與軍人有關的案件嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我剛剛跟委員報告了，就我個人的觀點，我還是比較重視在平戰轉換這個部分，平時就要重新打造一個新的軍事審判制度，戰時才能夠有那個能量。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們看一下您過去怎麼說，你過去說您不相信軍事審判有獨立性的可能，要恢復軍事審判，你現在是說要打造一個全新的軍事審判制度。可是過去從來沒有規劃，現在突然之間冒出來說要打造全新的軍事審判制度，而且在非常短期之內就要做完，有可能嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：當然，其實在我……"],["翁委員曉玲：而且這有一個很嚴重的問題，就是現在軍事法院的審判跟普通法院的審判，未來的職權要怎麼樣去釐清？以剛剛講的中間人的犯罪案件來看，正犯是在軍事審判，交由軍事法院來審理，然後這個中間人，可能教唆犯或幫助犯又交由一般法院來審理，這不會在未來出現訴訟審理上面的矛盾嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：有關這個部分，就是涉及到事實審跟上訴審的救濟問題，這個部分我們會跟司法院及法務部來做一個協商。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以我在想，你們的目的其實還是想要一網打盡，不管正犯是不是職業軍人，只要是中間有可能跟這個軍人有關的，未來所有的案件都會併到軍事法院來一起審判。"],["顧部長立雄：委員……"],["翁委員曉玲：從你們現在的規劃來講，其實就可以看出來這樣的矛盾。"],["顧部長立雄：委員，您應該很清楚憲法就是保障非現役軍人不受軍事審判。"],["翁委員曉玲：這我非常的清楚，所以這也是我們現在在concern……"],["顧部長立雄：所以我們不會……"],["翁委員曉玲：你們現在所提出來的這樣的問題。"],["顧部長立雄：我們不會違背憲法。"],["翁委員曉玲：請不要忘記您過去曾經說過什麼，您不相信軍事審判制度的，你認為軍法官還是有服從上級、有軍階……"],["顧部長立雄：所以螢幕上已經打出來了，我們……"],["翁委員曉玲：還是有軍階、有服從長官命令的義務。"],["顧部長立雄：我們就是要讓現在全新的軍事審判制度受到人民的信任。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以我希望您能夠謹記你之前說的話，不要現在換了一個總統就換了一套說法，然後軍事審判制度，基本上我沒有反對，但是必須要精心的來研擬、規劃，我們不希望看到軍法官來揹黑鍋，因為法院不敢判的，現在交由軍法官來判，法院判輕的，未來要求軍法官要判重，我不願意看到我們的軍事審判制度在未來變成民進黨遂行要去整肅異己的手段，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：我會本於初衷，我們就是保障人權，兼顧真實的發現及軍紀的維護，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請陳俊宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}},{"id":"159363","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159363","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b878d251f24728885f061b2f31bc5c916a9ba850061ce775095ffdedc1b900211e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"10:54:01 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謝謝主席本席有請消防署蕭署長好 請署長署長好署長本席請教政府應該作為我們全國消防地修的後盾這句話您認同嗎我們現在努力對 認同嗎我們現在努力 是"},{"start":28.652,"end":32.075,"text":"政府應該作為消防弟兄的後盾這句話您認同嗎主席可不可以停一下時間"},{"start":54.572,"end":75.359,"text":"這個很誇張耶 我是請教您 您認同嗎認同 認同 而且要繼續努力啊對啊很好啊 那你從頭到尾不講認同兩個字我說我再問一次 我針對問題好不好政府應該作為消防弟兄的後盾 這句話您認同嗎認同好 那這個我們"},{"start":80.205,"end":99.193,"text":"有看到有些地方的消防局 它可能有為了整合整個消防員長時間救災照護它可能有所謂的後勤照護車 或者是生命真相監測系統"},{"start":100.994,"end":127.23,"text":"像這類的後勤照顧系統對於消防人員的執勤品質請問您認為是不是更有保障潘委員我們的後勤照顧已經列入預算就問題問嘛我的問題是您是不是覺得這樣子對我們消防弟兄救災的弟兄們更有保障當然更有保障當然更有保障你認同嗎然後接著你可以講你剛剛想要講的"},{"start":128.251,"end":152.576,"text":"好感謝我們對於關切委員關心的後勤照顧車事實上已經在桃園市有先試辦過那效果不錯那現在已經在各縣市在後續的總統計劃就院裡面計劃核定以後那我們經費核定以後我們就是全國應該會每個縣市至少會有一部後勤照顧車對所以你們有在規劃已經在列入計劃了是"},{"start":154.037,"end":164.486,"text":"對 所以像去年我們好像看到整個消防署我們中央政府也很重視嘛消防弟兄的安危還有各方面的需求編了兩百六十幾億 對不對"},{"start":166.096,"end":185.063,"text":"這是未來五年的經費對 去年編然後有200億所以我們有為消防弟兄在規劃這個部分我們繼續努力所以在去年預算我們在討論預算的時候本席有提案這一塊那我們本來提案是凍結2000萬但是後來我們在預算審查的時候11位委員針對我們消防署的預算43億我們統統700萬"},{"start":194.067,"end":211.407,"text":"這個大概是千分之1.6%凍結千分之1.6%這點您應該認同吧我們等於凍結如果大家好好的做為我們消防弟兄努力我們是不是您這個規劃好提來是不是就可以解凍"},{"start":212.548,"end":217.831,"text":"我們主要非常肯定我們消防署跟各地消防局對我們消防弟兄的安危各方面我們都在努力"},{"start":235.318,"end":246.069,"text":"對署長這邊我們也肯定所以剛剛本席的問題其實只是這個問題您只要就問題回答就可以好謝謝請你回座主席本席想請馬次長好請馬次長"},{"start":252.759,"end":275.757,"text":"委員好市長請問您認不認同防災勝於救災認同對嘛所以我們防災的這個作為很多是我們政府要去推動的沒有錯吧沒錯那現在我們很多老舊住宅的更新跟維護非常的重要但是我們整個的進度是非常緩慢的您知道這一塊嗎"},{"start":277.078,"end":304.198,"text":"報委我們了解目前在危老案的一個重建進度那的確有一部分是需要再努力是不是很落後報委因為它有很多的社會條件跟環境條件要配合譬如什麼社會條件因為我們在推動危老耐震能力的評估的時候這個包括屋主還有我們在這個地方政府的部分都要一起來努力不然的話只有中央來推動是不夠的"},{"start":305.584,"end":322.457,"text":"對 所以要帶動嘛那請問你們有掌握全國建築物耐震安檢暨輔導重建補強計畫它整個 這個計畫中央提出來但是你們都沒有了解 都沒有逐年的統計現在你有統計數字嗎"},{"start":323.939,"end":336.197,"text":"包委員我手上的數字是到2月底我們危老的耐震人力評估案件我們是完成了19755件不是危老的耐震是全國建築物耐震安檢輔導重建計畫整個的進度"},{"start":340.732,"end":362.488,"text":"年度目標值跟你完成的進度你們完全沒有而且統計數字只到110年那本席跟這個相關單位所知的時候跟我們說這個要再去問地方政府你看現在114年了你中央只掌握到110年"},{"start":363.909,"end":379.484,"text":"所以財政收支劃分法很多錢給地方是對的嘛你中央都沒有作為沒有做事好再來因為時間的關係我們希望你們盡快的去把這一些進度你們要掌握好"},{"start":383.187,"end":407.232,"text":"領導者不要只有下令在做政治的對立真正要做率領所有的公務員真的要去實際的為我們民眾的需求來做剛剛您有講到不管是耐震或者是我們做一些防護可是更重要的有很多的老舊住宅他需要更新這一塊您了解吧"},{"start":408.174,"end":434.345,"text":"我們這邊超過30年屋齡的戶數全國有多少戶您知道嗎500萬戶那全台住宅老化情況越來越嚴峻每兩戶就有一戶超過30年的屋齡所以全台屋齡超過50年的有100萬戶所以中央有沒有考慮剛剛您有講有很多的條件那我們就我們所知其實"},{"start":436.266,"end":460.96,"text":"可能要願意來做的不管是民間或者是當事者就是住戶那有一些誘因所以政府有沒有在研擬譬如說讓建商他有這個誘因來幫這些50年以上汙齡的來幫他們來更新就可能在容積率上的獎勵各方面這一塊有沒有"},{"start":462.17,"end":485.781,"text":"我們除了重建以外我們目前有一個方案是在協助這些比較老的建築物去做所謂的整修那整修之後它不會去動到它原來的容積率我剛剛有講整修也好給它檢測各方面檢測完就知道要怎麼整修但是有一些它整修已經不足以負荷了它可能"},{"start":486.901,"end":515.62,"text":"現在我們的地震啊次數越來越頻繁您不否認吧還有強度也越來越大其實這種天災地變不是我們能夠預期或是我們能夠制止的但是我們能做好的就是防災那所以有50年以上的房子有100萬戶所以我們還是得要有一些相關的法規這些法規那來讓它能夠盡快的50年以上的屋齡的"},{"start":516.44,"end":535.47,"text":"如果該更新的就要更新所以本席問的是那你這個更新最大就沒有誘因那你如果能夠有一些這個規範出來那有誘因是不是可以讓建商他也願意去去負荷然後當事人他覺得OK我租金補貼有人而且"},{"start":536.05,"end":561.836,"text":"我們這個更新了以後譬如說我去哪裡租房子兩三年接著我就可以有一個新的新的這個住家這個是政府要來做要來推動的啊這一塊到底目前有沒有我們每個縣市的進度我們是不是容後我們跟委員報告進度剛剛委員提到數字我們有數字現在全國現在中央在帶領我的重點是中央在帶領你這個誘因出來了沒"},{"start":563.976,"end":571.387,"text":"我們有這個整個配套的措施因為講起來蠻複雜的那我現在就問你 你的獎勵措施是什麼你有鼓勵民間來參與嗎這個部分都有 惟老跟"},{"start":578.112,"end":596.513,"text":"不會啦 部分都有都有對 容積獎率稅都有但是你的容積獎率讓民間願意做嗎他覺得這也沒有誘因啊所以這一塊我要你有沒有瞭解這個現況這個我們要去分析民間可不可以做這才是重點有沒有"},{"start":597.256,"end":617.987,"text":"民間一定可以做但是不是所有的民間都可以做有些他有他不同的條件所以我們要看他的位置就這個東西我們訂出來的是全國性的規範今天你不能這樣講因為危險的他沒有分他的位置他危險之稱以來就倒了然後就很慘所以這一塊你們要去想啊"},{"start":619.088,"end":641.975,"text":"那有些地方他民間不能做那一定是有困難在那政府不介入我跟你講民眾就是在那裡真的天災地變來他們就很辛苦了解甚至很痛苦我們全臺全臺灣大家都不忍看到這個情況是不是可以加速進行好沒問題我們內政部很努力一個月內讓本席了解一下你們的進度好不好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時54分）謝謝主席，本席有請消防署蕭署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["蕭署長煥章：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：署長好。署長，本席請教，政府應該作為全國消防弟兄的後盾，這句話您認同嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們一直在努力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，認同嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們一直在努力，是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：認同嗎？我就只問你認同嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：當然要認同、要一起繼續努力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛？認同吧？"],["蕭署長煥章：是、是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：認同喔？你可以說認同嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：對，我們認同，一起繼續在努力當中。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對！我再請教你一次，政府應該作為消防弟兄的後盾，這句話您認同嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們認同，一起繼續在努力當中。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主席，可不可以停一下時間？"],["主席：好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個很誇張耶！我是請教您，您認同嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：認同，而且要繼續努力啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊！很好啊！那你從頭到尾不講「認同」兩個字。"],["蕭署長煥章：已經講了，跟委員回報，我認同，是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我再問一次，請針對問題，好不好？"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：政府應該作為消防弟兄的後盾，這句話您認同嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：我認同。"],["徐委員欣瑩：認同嘛！好，我們看到有些地方的消防局可能為了整合整個消防員長時間的救災照護，可能有所謂的後勤照護車，或者是生命徵象監測系統，像這類的後勤照護系統對於消防人員的執勤品質，請問您是不是認為更有保障？"],["蕭署長煥章：報告委員，我們的後勤照護車已經列入預算。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是啦！就問題答啦！"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我的問題是，您是不是覺得這樣子對我們消防弟兄、救災的弟兄們更有保障？"],["蕭署長煥章：當然更有保障。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛！當然更有保障，你認同嘛！好，接著你可以講你剛剛想要講的。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝。對於剛剛委員關心的後勤照護車，事實上已經在桃園市有先試辦過，效果不錯，現在已經在各縣市做後續的綜整計畫，院裡面計畫核定以後，經費核定以後，全國每個縣市至少會有一部後勤照護車的採購。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以你們有在規劃嘛！"],["蕭署長煥章：已經列入計畫了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以像去年我們看到整個消防署，我們中央政府也很重視消防弟兄的安危，還有各方面的需求，編了二百六十幾億對不對？"],["蕭署長煥章：這是為期5年的經費。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，去年編有二百……"],["蕭署長煥章：是未來5年。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以我們有為消防弟兄在規劃這個部分。"],["蕭署長煥章：我們其實有努力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以在去年討論預算的時候，本席有提案這一塊嘛！我們本來提案是凍結2,000萬，但是後來我們在預算審查的時候，11位委員針對消防署的預算43億，我們統凍700萬，這個大概是凍結1.6‰，這點您應該認同吧？等於我們凍結……如果大家好好地做，為我們消防弟兄努力，我們是不是……您這個規劃好提來，是不是就可以解凍了？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，委員會這邊凍結了七百多萬……"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，你說是就可以了，不要浪費我的時間。"],["蕭署長煥章：全部還有5億，我們還會繼續跟委員會報告。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以我們主要是非常肯定嘛！我們消防署等於跟我們各地的消防局，對我們消防弟兄的安危各方面都在努力，對署長這邊我們也肯定，所以剛剛本席的問題其實只是……對於這個問題您只要就問題回答就可以。"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝，請你回座。"],["蕭署長煥章：謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：主席，本席想請馬次長。"],["主席：好，請馬次長。"],["馬次長士元：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長，請問您認不認同防災勝於救災？"],["馬次長士元：認同。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛！所以我們防災的作為很多是我們政府要去推動的，沒有錯吧？"],["馬次長士元：沒錯。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在我們很多老舊住宅的更新跟維護非常地重要，但是我們整個的進度是非常緩慢的，您知道這一塊嗎？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，我們瞭解目前在危老案的重建進度，的確有一部分是需要再努力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：是不是很落後？"],["馬次長士元：因為它有很多的社會條件跟環境條件要配合。"],["徐委員欣瑩：譬如什麼社會條件？"],["馬次長士元：因為我們在推動危老耐震能力評估的時候，這個包括屋主還有我們在地方政府的部分，都要一起努力，不然的話，只有中央在推動是不夠的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以要帶動嘛！請問你們針對全國建築物耐震安檢暨輔導重建補強計畫，這個計畫是中央提出來，但是你們都沒有瞭解，都沒有逐年的統計，現在你有統計數字嗎？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，我手上的數字是到2月底，我們危老的耐震能力評估案件是完成了1萬9,755件。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是危老的耐震，而是全國建築物耐震安檢暨輔導重建補強計畫整個的進度。"],["馬次長士元：重建計畫……"],["徐委員欣瑩：年度目標值跟你完成的進度，你們完全沒有，而且統計數字只到110年。本席向相關單位索資時得到的回答是要再去問地方政府，你看，現在已經是114年了，中央卻只掌握到110年，所以財政收支劃分法把很多錢撥給地方是對的嘛！你們中央都沒有作為、沒有做事。","再來，因為時間的關係，我們希望你們儘快掌握好這些進度，中央領導者不要只有下令做政治的對立，而是要率領所有公務員實際為民眾的需求而做。","剛剛你講到對於耐震做了一些防護，但更重要的是有很多老舊住宅需要更新，這一塊你了解吧？全國超過30年屋齡的戶數有多少戶，你知道嗎？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：500萬戶。"],["馬次長士元：是，500萬戶。"],["徐委員欣瑩：全臺住宅老化情況越來越嚴峻，每二戶就有一戶的屋齡超過30年，其中屋齡超過50年的有100萬戶，因此中央是否做過考慮？剛剛你說有很多的條件，就我們所知，願意做的，無論是民間或當事者，也就是住戶，要有一些誘因嘛！政府是否研擬過，譬如提供誘因讓建商願意幫50年以上屋齡的住戶更新，包括在容積率上的獎勵等等，這一塊有沒有？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，除了重建之外，目前有一個方案是協助比較老的建築物做所謂的整修，在整修之後不會動到它原來的容積率。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，我剛剛講了，整修也好，幫忙他們進行檢測，檢測後就知道該如何整修，但有一些是整修都不足以負荷了，現在的地震次數越來越頻繁，你不否認吧？而且強度也越來越大，其實這種天災地變不是我們能夠預測的，也不是我們能制止的，但我們能做好的就是防災。既然屋齡50年以上的房子有100萬戶，我們還是得要有一些相關的法規，藉由這些法規讓50年以上屋齡的房子該更新就要更新。因此，本席要問的是，你這個更新最大的問題就是沒有誘因，如果能有一些規範出來，有了誘因是不是就可以讓建商願意負荷，當事人也覺得有人給予租金補貼，在開始更新後譬如要租房子二、三年，之後就可以有新的住家，這是政府要做、要推動的啊！目前到底有沒有這一塊？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，目前每個縣市的進度是不是容後再向委員報告，剛剛委員提到數字，我們有數字……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我的重點是在中央帶領下，這個誘因出來了嗎？"],["馬次長士元：我們有整個配套措施，但是講起來滿複雜的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在我就問你，你的獎勵措施是什麼？你有鼓勵民間參與嗎？"],["馬次長士元：這個部分都有，危老及都更的部分都有，包括容積獎勵及稅都有。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你的容積獎勵是否能讓民間願意做，否則他們會覺得沒有誘因，你有沒有了解這個現況啊？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，這個我們要去分析。"],["徐委員欣瑩：民間可不可以做，這個才是重點啊！有沒有？"],["馬次長士元：民間可以做，但不是所有的民間都可以做，有些有其不同的條件，所以我們要看它的位置，我們訂出來的是全國性的規範。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不能這樣講，因為危險並不分位置……"],["馬次長士元：沒有錯。"],["徐委員欣瑩：地震一來就倒了、就很慘，所以這一塊你們要去想啊！"],["馬次長士元：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有些地方民間不能做，一定是有困難，如果政府不介入，我告訴你，等到天災地變來了，民眾就很辛苦啊！"],["馬次長士元：了解。"],["徐委員欣瑩：真的會很痛苦，我們全臺灣都不忍看到這樣的情況，是不是可以加速進行？"],["馬次長士元：好，沒問題，我們內政部很努力、很努力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：一個月內讓本席了解一下你們的進度，好不好？"],["馬次長士元：好的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：丁學忠、丁學忠，丁學忠委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱委員不在。","高金素梅、高金素梅，高金素梅委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉，邱志偉委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員蘇巧慧、丁學忠、高金素梅所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢未及答復部分，請相關單位於一周內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-4","speakers":["張宏陸","丁學忠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","李柏毅","王美惠","黃建賓","許宇甄","楊瓊瓔","吳琪銘","黃捷","徐欣瑩","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「災害防救法第三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n「災害防救法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「災害防救法第二\n十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1142901_00001"}}},{"id":"159362","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159362","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b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請馬次長委員早安次長"},{"start":12.55,"end":35.621,"text":"我們內政部作為國內防災體系這個核心主管機關單位要負責整合各級政府的資源提升應變能力來降低整個極端氣候所帶來的災害我們看到最近地球暖化 氣候暖化的問題不管是在強降雨"},{"start":40.163,"end":64.244,"text":"還有颱風土石流地震這些災害也暴露出有很多是目前我們的政府的機制裡頭還有提升的這個空間那比如說在我們整個資訊傳遞的一個延遲或者是應變資源不足或者是最重要的整個跨部會的這個協調困難"},{"start":67.146,"end":83.939,"text":"導致不管是在搶救或者在安置方面有這個問題產生那所以以2月6號花蓮的地震為例就有部分的受災戶他們會反映說這個臨時安置的措施不夠完善"},{"start":84.739,"end":106.58,"text":"那在這樣的一個情況之下他們長期也沒有辦法去找到合適的替代住所所以本席要請教次長也就是說在是不是我們可以救以往我們所碰到的當然搶災或者是救災或者是安置所有的人員都很辛苦"},{"start":107.521,"end":129.522,"text":"但是如果我們有一個更好的明確的機制讓SOP流程讓它尤其在整個跨部會可以更明確更快速那絕對可以對於受災戶它是一個幫助或者是對地方的一個重建以及搶救絕對有很大的幫助所以本期要請教市長我們要怎麼樣就"},{"start":132.044,"end":158.794,"text":"精進的方式能夠迅速的到位然後加強整個跨部會的一個協調來提升這個效能出來請教市長跟委員報告我們在災防法裡面我們有各部會的分工那其他的法規我們也有分工剛剛委員所提示到的有關於收容安置替代住所部分其實過去很長一段時間內政部因為當時主管社會司"},{"start":159.514,"end":179.103,"text":"所以我們是設任單位來負責這樣的一個收容安置的作業那目前這個業務移撥到衛生福利部那我們還是跟衛生福利部有合作對這個民眾的災後的收容安置我們有這個分工那內政部主要的分工是在事前我們會協助做志工的培訓還有做這個"},{"start":181.064,"end":198.057,"text":"這個收容安置場所跟地方政府合作去做盤點所以比如說委員剛剛提到花蓮的震災事實上每一年我們跟花蓮縣政府都會對它的收容避難場所去做盤點那盤點之後這個數量跟它真正發生災害之後所需要的這個數量可能會有落差"},{"start":198.777,"end":216.12,"text":"那這個落差我們就會請包括慈濟基金會還有當地的像基督教界賽總會的民間團體去支援所以民眾他在當地如果有這樣一個需求的話地方政府跟我們的民間團體都會去做配合市長你現在談到這裡就是非常的重要"},{"start":216.781,"end":230.411,"text":"像我們民間團體慈濟全部志工全部出動基督教全部出動但是在我們的總指揮裡頭就是我們隨時要管控這個機制因為現在軟化的問題有時候"},{"start":233.553,"end":257.625,"text":"我們沒想到會產生這樣的樣態還好有民間的團體隨時協助我們所以我們要很感謝所以因此政府的自己的部分的一個跨部會我們從我們自己內政部到現在衛福部這樣子的一個機制在整個聯繫上面必須還有提升的精進的一個空間要隨時去做調整跟訊息溝通"},{"start":261.787,"end":283.958,"text":"本席認為這個是非常重要當然我再一次的強調我們非常的感謝民間的團體所以我經常說的政府的力量有限民間的力量無窮我們必須好好的來謝謝他們一起加油那接下來本席給你一個功課也就是本席非常重視我們長者的租屋的議題今天您來了我也給你提到這個問題"},{"start":285.279,"end":307.456,"text":"台灣在今年邁入了我們的高齡社會就是大家都眾所皆知但是我們迎接高齡者的住的一個選擇跟品質卻是非常的殘酷我們根據了衛福部的顯示資料裡頭65歲以上租屋的高齡者當中有23%他是面臨著租屋有困難"},{"start":308.197,"end":326.42,"text":"租屋有困難像台中市我們也是民間的基金會出來協助那所以呢本行認為說民間的有很多的基金會像崔媽媽基金會他們也顯示只有百分之九的房東他願意要租給弱勢的這個族群"},{"start":327,"end":347.45,"text":"那其中高齡長輩只佔了百分之五所以在這樣的一個情況之下我們可以看到我們在推動整個社會住宅當然數量是有限的但是獨居老人的身份來申請是非常的不容易"},{"start":348.07,"end":364.301,"text":"因為你的數量有限他要申請非常的不容易所以本席跟次長討論的也就是說我們內政部國營事業單位民間開始有在投入高齡載的一個推動但是引發友善住宅"},{"start":365.422,"end":393.974,"text":"不只是只有環境所以本席今天要跟你討論它不只是只有環境它更應該有伴隨的這個服務獨居老人這個伴隨是非常非常的重要所以本席想請教你們怎麼如何的去跨部會的來協調解決我們整個引髮族獨居租不到屋的這個困境讓這些長輩能夠好好的來晚年生活 請教"},{"start":395.426,"end":415.382,"text":"主要的我們目前在租屋市場因為它畢竟是一個自由市場所以我們會透過我們公營的部分我們包括社宅如果有一部分我們可以推動輕盈共居的這個部分我們會推動那另外就是說我們跟衛福部之間它的長照的體系這個部分去做整合"},{"start":415.902,"end":440.02,"text":"所以它是一個跨部會要去透過包括住宅政策跟社福政策要去合作的一個工作所以剛剛我也提到這是給我的功課所以我們是不是可以把這功課帶回去然後我們跨部會我們去做一些方案上面的一個討論因為社會住宅在您這邊本行非常的希望內政部應該要去做跨部會的一個協調"},{"start":441.601,"end":460.248,"text":"讓這些長輩真正的租得到屋好好的晚年生活那你去做整合你大概多久時間可以跟本席呢 方案跟委員報告我們是不是可以在一個月之內我們先跟衛福部討論還有我們自己內政部內部然後跟委員做一個熟練的回報好 謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":444,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時30分）主席，楊瓊瓔發言，想邀請次長。"],["主席：請馬次長。"],["馬次長士元：委員早安。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，我們內政部作為國內防災體系的核心主管機關單位，要負責整合各級政府的資源，提升應變能力，來降低整個極端氣候所帶來的災害。我們看到最近地球暖化、氣候暖化的問題，不管是在強降雨，還有颱風、土石流、地震，這些災害也曝露出有很多是目前在我們政府的機制裡頭還有提升的空間。譬如整個資訊傳遞的延遲，或者是應變資源不足，或者是最重要的，整個跨部會的協調困難，導致不管是在搶救或者是在安置方面有問題產生。所以以2月6號花蓮的地震為例，就有部分的受災戶反映臨時安置的措施不夠完善，在這樣的一個情況之下，他們長期也沒有辦法去找到合適的替代住所。所以本席要請教次長，我們是不是可以就以往所碰到的，當然搶災、救災或安置所有的人員都很辛苦，但是如果我們有一個更好而明確的機制，有SOP的流程，尤其讓它在整個跨部會可以更明確、更快速，絕對對於受災戶是一個幫助，或者是對地方的重建以及搶救絕對有很大的幫助。所以本席要請教次長，我們要怎麼樣讓精進的方式能夠迅速地到位，然後加強整個跨部會的協調，來提升效能出來？請教次長。"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們在災防法裡面，我們有各部會的分工，其他的法規我們也有分工，剛剛委員所提示到的有關於收容安置、替代住所的部分，其實過去很長一段時間，內政部因為當時主管社會司，所以我們是社政單位來負責這樣的一個收容安置的作業。目前這個業務移撥到衛生福利部，我們還是跟衛生福利部有合作，對民眾災後的收容安置有分工。內政部主要的分工是在事前，我們會協助做志工的培訓，還有就收容安置場所跟地方政府合作去做盤點，所以比如說委員剛剛提到花蓮的震災，事實上每一年我們跟花蓮縣政府都會對它的收容避難場所去做盤點，盤點之後這個數量跟它真正發生災害之後所需要的數量可能會有落差，這個落差我們就會請包括慈濟基金會還有當地的，像基督教芥菜種會的民間團體去支援，所以民眾在當地如果這樣的需求的話，地方政府跟我們的民間團體都會去做配合。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，你既然談到這裡就是非常重要，像我們民間團體──慈濟，全部志工全部出動，基督教全部出動，但是在我們的總指揮裡頭，我們隨時要管控這個機制。因為現在暖化的問題，有時候我們沒想到會產生這樣的樣態，還好有民間的團體隨時協助我們，所以我們要很感謝，因此政府自己的跨部會，從我們自己內政部到現在衛福部，這樣子的機制在整個聯繫上面必須要做，而且還有提升、精進的空間，要隨時做調整跟訊息溝通。"],["馬次長士元：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席認為這個是非常重要的。當然我要再一次強調，我們非常地感謝民間的團體，所以我今天要說的是，政府的力量有限，民間的力量無窮，我們必須好好的來謝謝他們，一起加油！","接下來，本席給你一個功課，本席非常重視我們長者租屋的議題，今天您來了，我也給你提到這個問題。臺灣在今年邁入了超高齡社會，眾所皆知，但是我們迎接高齡者住的選擇與品質卻是非常的殘酷。根據衛福部的資料裡頭顯示，65歲以上租屋的高齡者當中，有23%面臨租屋有困難，像臺中市，也是民間的基金會出來協助；另外，民間有很多基金會，像崔媽媽基金會，他們的資料也顯示，只有9%的房東願意租給弱勢族群，其中高齡長輩只占5%。","在這樣的情況之下，我們可以看到，我們在推動社會住宅，當然數量有限，以獨居老人的身分來申請是非常的不容易，因為數量有限，他要申請非常的不容易，所以本席今天要跟次長討論的也就是內政部、國營事業單位、民間有開始在投入高齡宅的推動，但是銀髮友善住宅不是只有環境，更應該有伴隨的服務，對獨居老人來講，伴隨是非常非常的重要！所以本席想請教你們如何去跨部會協調，解決我們銀髮族獨居租不到屋的困境，讓這些長輩晚年能夠好好的生活？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，目前我們的租屋市場畢竟是一個自由市場，所以我們會透過公營的部分，包括社宅，如果有一部分可以推動青銀共居，我們會推動。另外，我們也跟衛福部的長照體系之間去做整合，所以它是一個跨部會要透過住宅政策及社福政策合作的工作，剛剛委員也提到，這是給我的功課，所以我們是不是可以把這個功課帶回去，我們跨部會去做一些方案上面的討論以後，跟委員回報？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，因為社會住宅在您這邊，本席非常的希望內政部應該要去做跨部會的協調，讓這些長輩真正租得到屋，晚年好好的生活。那你去做整合，大概多久時間可以給本席方案呢？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們是不是可以在一個月之內，先跟衛福部討論，還有我們自己內政部內部討論，然後跟委員做一個書面的回報？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。"],["馬次長士元：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員捷代）：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。請吳琪銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-4","speakers":["張宏陸","丁學忠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","李柏毅","王美惠","黃建賓","許宇甄","楊瓊瓔","吳琪銘","黃捷","徐欣瑩","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「災害防救法第三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n「災害防救法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「災害防救法第二\n十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1142901_00001"}}},{"id":"159361","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159361","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8577afb7f897e4752061b2f31bc5c916a9ba850061ce77509902e5fb76f63ae845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:20:14 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請馬次長委員早安次長好次長我想請教你一下就是隨著全球氣候變遷加劇那台灣面臨的現在的這個災害的形態"},{"start":18.936,"end":38.869,"text":"已經從過去的單一現在變成天然的天然的災害變成是複合型的災害喔比如說哈地震會可能會引發土石流還有海嘯颱風會伴隨著潮雨還有可能會抱著這個大規模的停電但目前的防災教育還是以單一災害"},{"start":40.03,"end":57.71,"text":"的設計為主那已經沒有辦法面對這種像複合型的災害交錯的一個情況請次長看一下這個表格我們可以看一下2024年台灣的幾項重大自然災害引發的複合型的災害我們可以看到在2024年4月3號的花蓮地震"},{"start":58.578,"end":73.877,"text":"地震引起的有火災山崩道路中斷而且導致交通癱瘓那在2024年的7月23號到26號的凱米颱風也造成了淹水土石流強風還有造成大規模的停電"},{"start":74.838,"end":95.985,"text":"那2024年10月31號的康瑞颱風我們可以看到也強風豪雨也引發了淹水土石流還有大規模的停電那2024年10月初的山陀颱風也造成淹水土石流跟大規模的停電所以我們可以看到其實現在的災害大概都會是複合型的"},{"start":96.425,"end":112.009,"text":"那尤其是我們位處於這個太平洋的地震帶然後夏季也有颱風的威脅也算是這個複合型災害的高風險的一個區域那所以請問次次長我們對複合型災害的這個問題有做哪些事前準備事後又怎麼協助"},{"start":113.87,"end":141.312,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個復活性災害的問題那委員所提到的這幾個包括我們的災害事件跟整個趨勢就是完全是我們現在在關切的對象那目前在內政部的施政方向裡面我們有六個方向在面對委員剛剛所質詢的問題第一個就是說我們國民的普及的防災教育讓國民本身具有自主"},{"start":141.912,"end":170.07,"text":"互助互救以及這個防災準備的這樣一個能力那這個就是我們今天有提到這跟防災室的訓練有關這是第一個方向那第二個方向就是跟企業的合作因為我們現在有非常多在台灣的這些中小企業因為時間的關係是不是在六大方向能夠會後以書面報告給我好的 謝謝那表示你們現在已經有在正式這個複合型災害的一個防治的方法那另外"},{"start":172.057,"end":176.242,"text":"針對卓院長說我們現在是行動創新AI內閣請問次長有沒有將複合型的氣候事件的風險評估機制以及AI大數據的機制應用於預測複合型氣候的事件"},{"start":190.011,"end":210.427,"text":"跟委包我們目前有三個不同的方向在努力第一個是中央氣象署他們在對於颱風跟極端氣候的預測他們用AI模型那這AI模型在包括國科會他跟氣象署也有合作那第二個是我們在做災害派遣的部分消防署現在也在進行災害派遣的AI化"},{"start":211.067,"end":230.437,"text":"那另外就是說我們在對於科技運用那尤其是有關於無人機的整個偵測解析我們的災區的部分我們目前也在做這樣的一個工作好 謝謝我想這個部分是大家非常關心也是我們必須要積極去面對的也希望能夠好好的運用現在的這個AI技術來去達到預測的效果"},{"start":232.438,"end":247.097,"text":"那另外就是IPCC在2012年的時候就已經警告複合氣候的事件會因地球的暖化的影響會逐年增加那請問一下次長台灣是否有完整的地方性的評估報告而且制定具體的減災對策"},{"start":249.107,"end":275.788,"text":"跟委員報告目前在減災的對策上面我們有災害防救白皮書跟災害防救基本計畫裡面有訂定減災目標那各個減災目標必須對應到中央跟地方政府不同的預算科目所以這個是一個蠻複雜的問題不過目標是有的但是比較大的問題就是說因為氣候變遷的速度跟我們訂定目標當時所預估的可能會有一些落差"},{"start":276.388,"end":287.359,"text":"所以這部分我們每一年在做滾動式檢討我想隨時都應該做滾動式的檢討來去因應現在的一個狀況那另外我想請教一下環境部我們的陳副署長請陳副署長"},{"start":299.647,"end":316.936,"text":"環境部我針對氣候變遷基金是否有益助到防災領域還是仍然停留在減碳的政策報告委員因為我是化學署的副署長那氣候基金的部分是我們有氣候署那今天沒有派氣候署代表來那是不是容我把問題帶回去"},{"start":318.444,"end":345.464,"text":"那是不是會後能夠把相關的這個有關氣候變遷基金我剛提到這個問題能夠到辦公室來說明一下好嗎那另外在最後再請教次長請問一下次長我們現在您同不同意將強化學校的防災教育從小針對我們的這個防災教育進入到我們的課程將富爾市災害應變也納入我們的課程當中嗎"},{"start":346.064,"end":361.355,"text":"報告委員非常贊同 謝謝那目前有沒有這樣的計畫跟委員報告 目前在學校端的防災教育部有三個單位在負責一個是教育部的職科師 一個是教育部的校安中心那另外一個是教育部的國教署 他們都有各自的計畫在進行"},{"start":362.236,"end":386.396,"text":"希望說他們能夠整合一下把這個這個課程能夠整合在一起跟我們內政部都有合作OK好謝謝陳副總理您可以先回座是然後另外再請教一下就是昨天監察院提案糾正行政院跟國土署就是近年來營建剩餘的土石方遭非法棄置的事件屢見不鮮那當然這中間還有很多不肖的土石的資源堆積廠已合法"},{"start":386.816,"end":408.922,"text":"掩護非法 結合開發業者跟回田業者 清運業者土石土地仲介等上下游串聯的方式形成不法的產業鏈那甚至有的還會把營建剩餘的土石跟這些廢棄物直接從工地運到農地或者是漁溫來去進行非法掩埋那嚴重影響公共安全跟國土的完整那請問次長"},{"start":410.942,"end":432.296,"text":"針對複合型災害發生之後出現大量的這種營建廢棄物或者是說非法的這種營建剩餘的土方請問目前是怎麼樣子的一個處置各位報告我們在針對災害後的這些所謂的廢棄物的部分我們跟環境部之間我們有做這個廢棄物的堆置跟回收這樣的一個機制"},{"start":433.277,"end":450.517,"text":"那如同剛剛委員所詢問的回收機制的部分我們目前要輔導業者去強化他們的這個容量那這裡也要搭配平時我們的這個營建廢棄物的量跟災時我們會多增加出來的量去做這樣的一個總體的一個評估"},{"start":452.861,"end":478.147,"text":"那所以總體評估完之後呢我們跟委員報告就目前我們在營建廢棄物的產量跟營建廢棄物的處理量的部分這個部分我們還要再檢討因為這中間的確是有一個落差那這個部分我想既然監察院都特別提出糾正了這個部分我想我們要積極的去面對處理這樣的一個問題那接下來我想請教一下那個消防署那個"},{"start":479.704,"end":498.296,"text":"我們的蕭署長好就是有關台中星光三月氣爆的事件造成5死38傷那這個當時是應該是因為在當時要裝潢的時候有切割天然氣的管線而造成這樣的一個災害那請問一下就是像這樣子的這一次在這個大型的商場裡面發生這樣的事情"},{"start":501.158,"end":506.221,"text":"那我有沒有去研擬過因為我們現在可能針對這個我們的瓦斯感應器並沒有要求全面裝設就針對在這個有關如果設置飲食空間的場所並沒有全面設置那請問未來是不是會要求我們這有飲食空間的這些營業場所要全面設置瓦斯感測器呢"},{"start":522.148,"end":534.696,"text":"這個案子是有設置只不過施工過程當中他沒有進行施工的管理計畫跟申報那施工過程當中也把警報設備這邊關閉所以事後所以是等於是施工人員操作的問題施工跟整個系統關閉的問題"},{"start":539.699,"end":563.296,"text":"所以他那個樓層已經有裝設瓦斯感測器那目前我們有沒有要求有這樣子的這個大型商場的有設飲食空間的這些業者要求他們都要設置瓦斯感測器我們目前是針對地下建築場所這個有要求那委員關係這個部分我們再跟國度署國度署的法規因為以前可能美食街會設在地下室"},{"start":563.416,"end":592.173,"text":"可是現在都不是 現在各個樓層可能都有所以針對這個部分是不是能夠我覺得應該要把這個在各個有關 只要有設置美食街的都應該要裝設瓦斯感測器用天然氣或者液化休息的部分我們來檢討好不好 是不是那麻煩一下這個署長這個會後能夠馬上跟我們的國處所以要請次長能夠來好好的來去這個監督這樣子的一個事情我覺得這個災害竟然已經發生了但是我覺得未來不能再有這樣子的災害 好嗎好 謝謝"},{"start":593.575,"end":593.658,"text":"我去問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":393,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時20分）謝謝主席，我們請馬政次。"],["主席：請馬次長。"],["馬次長士元：委員早安。"],["許委員宇甄：次長好。次長，我想請教一下，隨著全球氣候變遷加劇，臺灣現在面臨的災害型態已經從過去的單一的天然災害變成複合型災害，比如地震可能會引發土石流還有海嘯，颱風會伴隨著豪雨，還有可能會造成大規模的停電，但目前的防災教育還是以單一災害的設計為主，已經沒有辦法面對這種複合型災害交錯的情況。請次長看一下這個表格，2024年臺灣的幾項重大自然災害引發的複合型災害，我們可以看到2024年4月3號的花蓮地震，引起的有火災、山崩、道路中斷，而且導致交通癱瘓；2024年7月23號到26號的凱米颱風也造成了淹水、土石流、強風還有大規模的停電；2024年10月31號的康芮颱風，強風豪雨也引發了淹水、土石流還有大規模的停電；2024年10月初的山陀兒颱風造成淹水、土石流跟大規模的停電。所以其實現在的災害大概都會是複合型的，尤其我們位處於太平洋的地震帶，然後夏季也有颱風的威脅，也算是複合型災害的高風險區域，所以請問次長，我們對複合型災害有做哪些事前準備？事後又怎麼協助？"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員關心複合型災害的問題，委員所提到的這幾個災害事件跟整個趨勢，完全是我們現在在關切的對象。目前在內政部的施政方向裡面，我們有六個方向在面對委員剛剛所質詢的問題，第一個就是我們國民普及的防災教育，讓國民本身具有自主、互助、互救及防災準備的能力，那就是我們今天提到的，跟防災士的訓練有關，這是第一個方向。第二個方向就是跟企業合作，因為我們臺灣現在有非常多中小企業……"],["許委員宇甄：因為時間的關係，這六大方向是不是能夠在會後以書面提供給我？"],["馬次長士元：可以，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：那表示你們現在已經有在正視複合型災害的防救方法。另外，針對卓院長說我們現在是行動創新AI內閣，請問次長，有沒有將複合型氣候事件的風險評估機制及AI大數據的機制，應用於預測複合型氣候事件？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們目前有三個不同的方案在努力，第一、中央氣象署用AI模型預測颱風跟極端氣候，這個AI模型包括國科會也跟氣象署合作。第二個是在災害派遣的部分，消防署現在也在進行災害派遣的AI化。另外就是我們對於科技運用，尤其是無人機的偵測、解析災區的部分，我們目前也在做這樣一個工作。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝。我想這個部分大家非常關心，也是我們必須要積極去面對的，也希望能夠好好的運用現在的AI技術去達到預測的效果。","另外就是IPCC在2012年的時候，就已經警告複合氣候的事件會因地球暖化的影響逐年增加，請問一下次長，臺灣是否有完整的地方性的評估報告，而且制定具體的減災對策？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，目前在減災對策上，我們在災害防救白皮書跟災害防救基本計畫裡面有訂定減災目標，各個減災目標必須對應到中央跟地方政府不同的預算科目，這是一個蠻複雜的問題，目標是有的。但是比較大的問題就是，因為氣候變遷的速度跟我們訂定目標當時所預估的可能會有一些落差，所以這部分我們每一年都在做滾動式檢討。"],["許委員宇甄：所以是不是應該隨時……對，我想都要隨時做滾動式的檢討，以因應現在的狀況。另外我想請教一下環境部陳副署長。"],["主席：請陳副署長。"],["陳副署長淑玲：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：陳副署長好。我想請教一下，環境部針對氣候變遷基金是否有挹注到防災領域，還是仍然停留在減碳的政策？"],["陳副署長淑玲：報告委員，因為我是化學署的副署長，氣候基金的部分，我們有氣候署今天沒有派氣候署的代表來，是不是容我把問題帶回去？"],["許委員宇甄：是不是會後有關氣候變遷基金，我剛剛提到的這個問題，能夠到我辦公室來說明一下好嗎？"],["陳副署長淑玲：好的。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，最後再請教次長。請問次長，您同不同意將強化學校的防災教育，從小針對防災教育進入我們的課程，將複合式災害應變也納入課程當中？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，我非常贊同，謝謝。"],["許委員宇甄：目前有沒有這樣的計畫？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，目前在學校端的防災，教育部有3個單位在負責，一個是教育部的資科司，一個是教育部的校安中心，另外一個是教育部的國教署，他們都有各自的計畫在進行。"],["許委員宇甄：好，希望他們能夠整合一下，把這個課程能夠整合在一起。"],["馬次長士元：跟我們內政部都有合作。"],["許委員宇甄：OK，好，謝謝，陳副署長您可以先回座。","另外再請教一下，昨天監察院提案糾正行政院跟國土署，就是近年來營建剩餘的土石方遭非法棄置的事件屢見不鮮，當然這中間還有很多不肖的土石資源堆積場也以合法掩護非法，結合開發業者、回填業者、清淤業者、土地仲介等上下游串連的方式形成不法的產業鏈，甚至有的還會把營建剩餘的土石跟這些廢棄物直接從工地運到農地或者是魚塭去進行非法掩埋，嚴重影響公共安全跟國土的完整。請問次長，針對複合型災害發生之後出現大量的營建廢棄物，或者是非法的營建剩餘土方，請問目前是怎麼樣子的處置？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們在針對災害後所謂廢棄物的部分，我們跟環境部之間有做廢棄物的堆置跟回收這樣的機制。如同剛剛委員所詢問的，回收機制的部分，我們目前要輔導業者去強化他們的容量，這裡也要搭配平時我們營建廢棄物的量，跟災時我們多增加出來的量去做這樣的一個總體評估。"],["許委員宇甄：所以總體評估完之後呢？"],["馬次長士元：我們跟委員報告，目前我們在營建廢棄物的產量跟營建廢棄物的處理量的部分，這部分我們還要再檢討，因為這中間的確是有一個落差。"],["許委員宇甄：這個部分，既然監察院都特別提出糾正了，我想我們要積極地去面對、處理這樣的一個問題。"],["馬次長士元：是。"],["許委員宇甄：接下來我想請教消防署蕭署長。"],["蕭署長煥章：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：有關臺中新光三越氣爆的事件造成5死38傷，當時應該是在裝潢的時候有切割天然氣的管線而造成這樣的一個災害。請問一下，像這次在大型的商場裡面發生這樣的事情，有沒有去研擬過……因為現在針對我們的瓦斯感應器可能並沒有要求全面裝設，就是針對這個有關要設置飲食空間的場所並沒有全面設置，那請問未來是不是會要求有飲食空間的營業場所要全面設置瓦斯感測器呢？"],["蕭署長煥章：報告委員，這個案子它是有設置，只不過施工過程當中並沒有進行施工的管理計畫跟申報，施工過程當中也把警報設備關閉，所以事後臺中市消防局也針對這個處罰。"],["許委員宇甄：所以等於是施工人員操作的問題？"],["蕭署長煥章：是施工跟整個系統關閉的問題。"],["許委員宇甄：所以那個樓層已經有裝設瓦斯感測器了？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，有設。"],["許委員宇甄：目前我們有沒有要求大型商場有設飲食空間的這些業者，要求他們都要設置瓦斯感測器？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們目前是針對地下建築物、場所有要求，至於委員關心的這個部分我們再跟國土署……國土署的法規也有規定，我們再來檢討。"],["許委員宇甄：因為以前可能美食街會設在地下室，可是現在都不是，現在各個樓層可能都有。"],["蕭署長煥章：對，我們再來檢討這個部分。"],["許委員宇甄：針對這個部分是不是能夠……我覺得應該要把這個在各個有關，只要有設置美食街的都應該要裝設瓦斯感測器。"],["蕭署長煥章：有用天然氣或者液化石油氣的部分我們來檢討。"],["許委員宇甄：對，好不好？"],["蕭署長煥章：謝謝委員。"],["許委員宇甄：那麻煩一下署長會後能夠馬上跟我們國土署，也請次長能夠好好地來監督這樣子的一個事情。我覺得災害既然已經發生了，但是我覺得未來不能再有這樣子的災害好嗎？謝謝。"],["蕭署長煥章：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，我們請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-4","speakers":["張宏陸","丁學忠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","李柏毅","王美惠","黃建賓","許宇甄","楊瓊瓔","吳琪銘","黃捷","徐欣瑩","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「災害防救法第三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n「災害防救法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「災害防救法第二\n十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1142901_00001"}}},{"id":"159360","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159360","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8a6f508bc449752bc061b2f31bc5c916a9ba850061ce77509a7e6c24935185c665ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:12:10 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我們請我們的次長好 請馬次長委員早安次長早安 次長我們那個防災法的修法相當的重要如果在修法的時候會有更多的細部討論但本席認為如果連國土都充滿危害的時候你再怎麼修法跟給預算都來不及"},{"start":25.809,"end":41.658,"text":"我們現在應該做的是看到危機就要處理而不是等到發生危險再來降低傷害去年本席在內政委員會針對國土法、海拔法都有參與修法跟討論為的就是要給台灣這邊土地一個充滿生機的土地"},{"start":42.498,"end":67.818,"text":"但無奈的是不管怎麼修法哪怕我們給再多的預算去做國土復育跟保育都逃避不了我們的土地現在正走向癌症化我是在說民進黨執政之後我們推出了前瞻計畫開啟了大量公共工程的新建還有現在新清單等等這個政策的這個炒房的這個的房市之後台灣的硬體建案繁華了一段時間"},{"start":68.999,"end":83.371,"text":"常常聽到很多工地在缺人像這台找不到人甚至很多建築業者都希望能夠開放外籍移工但在這樣繁華的背後現在卻變成我們子孫要付出這樣龐大的代價"},{"start":85.39,"end":104.7,"text":"我們現在台灣西部有越來越多的糧田雲雲山谷像得了癌症一樣一步一步的死亡凶手是誰凶手就是銀劍工程產生的這些廢棄物跟剩餘的土石四處亂盜你挖開裡面來看有些空間挖開來看裡面有混泥土塊啦馬桶碎片啦石膏板啦"},{"start":105.26,"end":126.627,"text":"還有塑膠浪板還有電線種種這個雲間混合的這個廢棄物像去年啊台南市北門有十七公頃的公幼堤裡面多出一些是廢棄的餘溫跟鹽田它地主是誰地主是我們產生部的國有產屬因為它地主偏僻人間罕見所以就容易被亂盜這些雲間廢棄物那當我們這個土地"},{"start":130.928,"end":156.144,"text":"被這個造土 黏土跟磚塊的廢棄物倒完之後它完全不適合耕作它等同於這塊土地判了死刑我想 難道你身為營建廢棄物的主管機關內政部都不知道這件事情嗎部長 本期要問的問題是說內政部我們現在統計全國這個掩埋型的土質廠截到去年11月底只剩下876萬立方的這個衛納量請問這樣夠不夠"},{"start":161.301,"end":181.641,"text":"目前我們跟地方政府還有環境部在處理這個議題因為數字的話如果根據委員剛剛所提到的公共工程拆遷還有包括我們都更會產生很多的營建廢棄物那這些廢棄物我們的確是需要一個地方去做處理所以現在環境部跟國土署他分別有兩套系統專門處理這個營建廢土史"},{"start":183.763,"end":209.623,"text":"那我們現在也有在進行這個所謂的營建廢棄物的回收作業所以我們在業者的部分我們也有輔導他們去進行這個廢棄物的篩選以後某一些土方可以再利用我們會做再利用所以這個部分就是說從剛剛委員提到的土方的棄土的堆置跟我們土方的回收我們現在是兩方面同時在進行那這個部分我們會一起來努力市長那夠不夠目前以目前的這個衛納量夠嗎"},{"start":212.017,"end":234.625,"text":"跟委員報目前以我的了解目前是不足我們這個部分我們要去增加因為你去年你去年產出你去年統計啦產出需要填滿的土方就達到388萬388立方的立方公尺的估算齁這兩噸就沒了兩噸就沒了齁那再來你你現在營建廢棄物的混合物處理跟再利用也出現落差嘛"},{"start":235.686,"end":242.974,"text":"對 你中央許可52家業者每年可以分類回收再利用的是1192萬噸但是實際上進場的處理的只有163萬噸喔那比例不到一成四喔啊 現在要想這麼粗的東西才會回去"},{"start":251.479,"end":278.01,"text":"比例根本就不夠啊你進場跟實際上就差不多會這些消失的廢墟跑去哪裡就是亂到嘛那土石廠的價值像我們土石廠的價值好像只是要開立假證明在賺錢啊就很多空殼的這個土石廠他就是只開證明不收土石不然這些東西消失到哪裡去他不會憑空消失啊所以我們合法運作的土石廠其實接近飽和那這樣子是是像市長一講的真的就不夠啊對不對那其實"},{"start":280.438,"end":296.348,"text":"有人說明明就不夠然後中央的數字都說夠都在亂講話這誰講的?不是本席講的這是第一線偵辦亂大化建設檢察官講的他說這供需明顯失衡內政部要負最大責任這跟我講的"},{"start":298.25,"end":314.289,"text":"這個另外就是我們現任的前政務政委員吳哲成委員他也直指我們內政部這部分確實是失職他之前也要求說內政部要盤點我們合適的土地地點由地方來規劃更新現在都快兩年了請問地點在哪邊"},{"start":315.703,"end":331.634,"text":"跟委員報這個我會去查明年之後跟委員回報因為有一些細節在國土署那邊不過這個部分跟委員回報我們是會努力去處理這個供需差的問題因為這個問題不是最近這一兩年才有這是一個非常長期的問題"},{"start":332.955,"end":357.942,"text":"所以你今天提出的這些事我們就在這個相對重要是可是國土的問題是已經擺在眼前要解決我想沒有合法跟足夠的量能當然就讓業者這邊亂套了那不只不止所有的法規還有法規都亂了套從土是讓你開立假證明年單然後供砂石車繞場一圈做假紀錄這個各縣市的這個證明年單的格式也不統一容易被混變過關那地主"},{"start":358.302,"end":380.528,"text":"它也常常被人頭詐騙用來盜這些廢棄物我想種種的問題都看到中央已經明明都清楚這件事情要趕快來解決那我們中央如果還沒有訂定一定的這個土石方的這個檢測方法包括採樣的數量雜質成分跟占比等等這個也困擾我們業界嘛所以這個部分你看連金財院都公佈了看不下去了金財院說"},{"start":382.869,"end":409.292,"text":"營建剩餘土方土石方的處理方案這個未接緊在行政規則缺乏法律授權導致強制力不足而且與廢棄物清理法等多重規範這個範疇重疊主管機關的權責不清廢棄物認定標準模糊能夠造成什麼造成我們執法困難所以這個部分內政部具體的修文什麼時候要做然後什麼時候可以送過來審"},{"start":411.537,"end":434.492,"text":"這跟委員報告我們會後跟委員做說明因為這個部分有一些細節是跨部會要去處理的是那我們有法律上競合的問題那剛剛也跟委員報告就是說除了中央政府之外因為對土資廠部分的管理地方政府其實他有他一定的職長所以最了解土資廠的問題的大概是在地方政府第一線所以這部更應該是來整合這塊是吧這個我們會虛心檢討"},{"start":436.993,"end":440.496,"text":"現在問題不是今年才開始運氣廢棄物的不法利益龐大已經躍升為黑幫收入的前三名已經超越賭場"},{"start":452.225,"end":468.655,"text":"這個行政院也視為重大的經濟犯罪但是我們缺乏打炸、打酒駕的決心所以這部分我們要求內政必須要硬起來不然親臉行政愛鄉土就只會淪為口號那這部分再請政事跟部裡面來研究趕快來解決這個問題好 謝謝委員長謝謝市長 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我覺得剛才消防署現在補充說一天最少300人不是到目前我們183年到現在是一天增加300人 一天增加300人"},{"start":158.905,"end":164.028,"text":"是這樣嗎?因為這個醫生,三百的醫生是消防署的醫生但是,譬如說剛才說到的計程車,或是公寓大廈或是白的保肥,他會用白的保肥醫生去做這個訓練"},{"start":176.854,"end":178.436,"text":"當然啦,不然你還可以說後面淋淋淋淋的,這樣不行啦這本是知道,這是我的想法,是覺得每一個縣市都應該輔導他們那麼多人,做為防災事啊尤其現在"},{"start":195.888,"end":212.105,"text":"你看看自己就好了,最近在黨是要如何互助和自治,可以保護自己,這是最重要的啊,市長你可不可以知道,你們的困難當中,為委託民間的委託好"},{"start":216.309,"end":230.994,"text":"多多教育期沒有委託任何一間校也好民間也好基金會也好你怎麼知道來市長是教會員報告訓練機構是用民間自己申請的所以現在教育期如果沒有訓練機構我們可以來負責就是說加一系我剛剛說民間的申請像校我們有"},{"start":243.298,"end":249.283,"text":"國立會有很多基金會的地方我的意思就是說不用說一定是被動的啦有時候我們是中央跟地方要互相的嘛不是說你自己沒來申請自己就不用啦 不可以這樣啦如果一個地方被我們"},{"start":268.038,"end":272.282,"text":"如果都沒有來申請,跟他爺爺的伯爺,不就都不用訓練,就要去百貫市訓練,我覺得可以輔導一下,好不好,因為本身最了解,是覺得說,自己去埋葬,那些官員去處理,才對,"},{"start":288.297,"end":313.831,"text":"在這個犯罪室裡面本身要跟你談到的就是說我們內政部有消防署,另外自己的訓練農業部水利署、水保署也自己訓練經濟部的水利署也自己訓練那這些單位有辦法整合起來嗎來,市長"},{"start":315.632,"end":322.856,"text":"我們現在已經整合了農業部跟經濟部的多元防災室我已經納入土石油的專員跟防汛志工我們都有給他算認可他的資格然後把他納入我們的多元防災室因為市長我比較會這樣因為最近有的人不知道"},{"start":342.248,"end":348.534,"text":"你們一定要整理好,可以像剛才說的已經把糖納入了所以我覺得這是救災非常重要的訊息要讓我們的救災人員或消防署這邊大家多溝通知道這個問題因為我覺得你們有的做,不代表大家都知道"},{"start":367.831,"end":376.156,"text":"你們的努力在哪裡所以要多多去溝通一下要溝通 大家要知道說中央政府是做到什麼跟現在的犯災有需要怎麼改善嗎這是最重要的跟本席 跟你剛才說的就是犯災事的問題我們在自己是可以負責那麼多人來的好 我們會來輔導"},{"start":394.929,"end":402.774,"text":"在這正是本縣在正當說到消防署的發揮在我們這裡的營銷這個提檢的問題那現在不知道辦到哪裡來 署長感謝委員我們最近兩個部門同時在進行一個的部分就是說為健保署裡面我們大數據裡面分析我們消防局大概有哪些問題"},{"start":421.766,"end":423.467,"text":"市長,我現在規定,你要去努力,現在我是要了解,所說的就是說,我們這裡的保衛人員,這裡的技師,所做的事,當然所監處他們的權利,他們當時可以使用,"},{"start":442.961,"end":450.667,"text":"這樣還要快嗎?確認了就要開始執行今年是5月10月還是12月應該4月1號就確認了就開始4月1號是6月還是8月我們會跟地方政府來合作啦像市長說的就在做因為我覺得有的做時間也要快我知道政府的錢扣一千一百都是要有幾位要有以上"},{"start":472.944,"end":477.028,"text":"我們才有辦法開,這是沒有錯,但是要趕快,因為正當心過心就過的東西,我也知道你愛有執法,愛有做什麼,愛有時間,這本事都知道,但是要趕快,要買一個工具"},{"start":492.643,"end":496.069,"text":"六月也可以 十月也可以 為什麼我們不可以提早發財好不好 本席幫你探討這件問題 要邀請去我家來實行預算簽認以後我們就全面來實行"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":339,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時3分）主席，我請政次。"],["主席：好，請馬次長。"],["馬次長士元：委員早安。"],["王委員美惠：早安。次長，今天本席要跟你探討防災士的相關問題，從113年開始推動，全臺灣的防災士已經有4萬2,000人，嘉義市有602個，不過剛剛本席聽到消防署署長說每一個地方最少要有300人。政次，本席請教你一個問題，像我的故鄉將近二十六萬多人，而防災士是602個，防災士是專業人員，要怎麼互相去幫助自己救災？你認為是不是要再去輔導地方，尤其是嘉義市的部分，是否要再去訓練防災士？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，現在我們除了剛才消防署說的一個地方600人以外……"],["王委員美惠：沒有，他說300人。"],["馬次長士元：一個地方300人……"],["王委員美惠：一個地方300人。"],["馬次長士元：一年300人。現在還有另外一個管道，對計程車司機跟公寓大廈管理人員，我們也在做專案的強化，所以消防署在努力，國土署及透過交通部我們也同時在做，所以不是只有消防署在訓練防災士，我們現在透過各個部會都在訓練這件事情。"],["王委員美惠：都有透過每一個地方訓練更多人。"],["馬次長士元：對。"],["王委員美惠：剛才消防署補充說一年最少300人，是113年到現在，一年增加300嗎？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，因為300個是消防署的預算，但是譬如剛才說到計程車或是公寓大廈，或是別的部會就會用別的部會預算去做這個訓練。"],["王委員美惠：當然，不然能夠隨便混在一起，這樣不行，這本席知道，只是我的想法是，每一個縣市都應該輔導多一點人做為防災士，尤其現在像嘉義，最近地震是要怎麼互助跟自救？可以保護自己，這是最重要的。","次長，你知道嗎？你們的訓練當中，從委託民間、學校，唯獨嘉義市沒有委託任何一間學校、民間、基金會，次長知道嗎？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，訓練機構是用民間自己申請的，所以現在嘉義市如果沒有訓練機構，我們可以來輔導，就是嘉義市……"],["王委員美惠：我覺得民間申請，像國立學校、基金會，我的意思是說不用一定是被動，有時候我們是中央跟地方要互相，不是說嘉義沒有來申請，嘉義就不用了，不行這樣。如果一個地方擺爛，都沒有來申請，嘉義的百姓不就都不用訓練，就要去別的縣市訓練？我覺得可以輔導一下啊！"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們來輔導。"],["王委員美惠：因為本席所了解的是嘉義市沒有，你們要趕快去處理才對。","在防災士裡面，本席要向你探討的是，內政部消防署有另外自己的訓練；農業部、水保署也自己訓練；經濟部的水利署也自己訓練，這些單位有辦法整合起來嗎？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，現在已經整合了。"],["王委員美惠：我們已經整合了？"],["馬次長士元：已經整合了，農業部跟經濟部的多元防災士有納入土石流的專員還有防汛志工，我們都有認可他的資格，把他納入多元防災士。"],["王委員美惠：次長，我為什麼會這樣問你？因為最近有的人不知道你們已經整合了，已經把他納入了，所以我覺得這是救災非常重要的訊息，要讓我們的救災人員、消防署，大家多溝通知道這個問題。因為我覺得你們有在做，不代表大家都知道你們的努力在哪裡，所以要多多去溝通，要溝通大家才知道說中央政府做了什麼，防災有需要改善嗎？這是最重要的。本席剛剛跟你說防災士的問題，希望在嘉義市可以輔導讓多一點人參加。"],["馬次長士元：好，我們來輔導。"],["王委員美惠：本席上次還有說到消防署、打火兄弟跟義消體檢的問題，署長，現在不知道進度如何？"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員，最近兩個部分同時在進行，一個部分，從健保署大數據裡面分析，消防員大概有哪些問題……"],["王委員美惠：不是啦，署長，過程你要去努力，現在我是要了解這些打火人員、義消的同仁並爭取他們的權利，他們何時可以使用？這比較重要啦！"],["蕭署長煥章：今年確認之後，今年就要開始執行。"],["王委員美惠：今年是5月還是10月還是12月？"],["蕭署長煥章：應該4月確認之後就開始。"],["王委員美惠：4月以後，是6月還是8月？"],["蕭署長煥章：我們會跟地方政府來合作，不是說消防署說就能夠做。"],["王委員美惠：因為我覺得有在做，時間也要快，我知道政府就算1塊錢、1毛錢都是要有規劃，要有預算才有辦法花，這是沒錯，不過要趕快，因為去年審過三讀的東西，我也知道說要有子法、時間，本席都知道，不過要趕快，同樣一個工作，6月也可以、12月也可以，為什麼我們不提早一點，好不好？要儘快去執行，以上。"],["蕭署長煥章：預算確認以後，我們就全面執行。"],["王委員美惠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，請黃建賓委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-4","speakers":["張宏陸","丁學忠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","李柏毅","王美惠","黃建賓","許宇甄","楊瓊瓔","吳琪銘","黃捷","徐欣瑩","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「災害防救法第三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n「災害防救法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「災害防救法第二\n十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1142901_00001"}}},{"id":"159358","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159358","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8c3f77617ddddbd73061b2f31bc5c916a9ba850061ce77509edafc1b978c0a0025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"09:55:45 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高雄市政府消防局的同仁……我還記得那天晚上，高雄市消防局的主任秘書跟很多現場的消防局人員走到凱旋路跟二聖路的路口的時候，一邊往左、一邊往右，往左的這群人包含高雄市消防局的主任秘書，是最後一個在氣爆現場被找到的罹難弟兄。當時沒有人知道高雄市的地底下有那麼多的石化管線，發生了氣爆之後，當然相關原因後來一一探究出來，包含於1986年時中油接受李長榮石化委託埋設，但是高雄市在下水道工程處的驗收人員沒有強制請中油公司或李長榮石化把這條管線移除，所以發生了這個事件，也造成當時的基層人員後來也入獄服刑，為這件事情負責，這是一個悲劇，讓我們知道接下來不要再發生這些事情。但我還是必須要回過頭來看一下當時的行政院做了什麼事情，當時的行政院，馬英九政府不編列特別預算，不訂定管線管理專法，不成立中央重建會，放著高雄市政府自己去處理所有的罹難者，包含傷者、包含我們所有的消防弟兄，這是一個非常悲痛的事情，到時隔11年後的今天，2024年我們已經把氣爆前的89條石化管線降到71條，其中有59條還在使用中，長度一共有932公里，涵蓋14個行政區，如果消防署以及地方政府沒有做這些相關石化管線的圖資重整，我們也很難想像未來如果再發生類似的氣爆事件，我們的消防弟兄要如何來因應。從2014年7月31日的凌晨發生到現在，我想災害不是只有地方政府可以處理，我們的消防署及行政院其實跟地方……不管是圖資或是相關資訊，必須要提供相關的內容，並且必須要審慎地來完整相關救災資訊，讓消防弟兄可以去進行救災行動。請教署長，這些相關的資訊，你認為現在充足嗎？"],["蕭署長煥章：報告委員，我們跟地方政府的合作機制，目前有一個合作的平臺，而災害應變中心的開設也有一個運作的機制，當災害來臨之前，我們的預警措施及通報以及啟動應變機制，這個部分大概都已經到位；有關對於整個災情的掌控、了解及處理，我們的EMIC系統大概都已經到位，運作了幾年下來，在過去幾次災害裡面也都經得起考驗，對於救災的資源，目前有兩百多萬筆的資料也在資料庫裡面，這個都已經到位了。所以經過一次又一次的考驗，這樣的合作默契及潤滑以及彼此間的合作關係，甚至中央跟地方的合作都有一個機制在。災防辦每一年針對地方政府對於災害防救的推動也會做訪評，訪評完以後檢討到底還有哪些需要精進的地方，我們也來做強化。同時，像去年幾次重大颱風以後，事實上我們一直在檢討，發生以後，中間有哪些地方是不順的、卡卡的，要怎麼來調整這樣的機制，我們也同步在做檢討、設計。尤其比較具體的就是我們在偏遠山區的通訊，這個部分先到位，最近也在針對偏遠山區，到底它的電力部分是不是透過太陽能板的機制來做電力的供應，目前也在檢討、調整及精進當中，這部分跟委員回報。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝署長。對於防災或是救災，所有的消防弟兄站在第一線，我們必須要有充足的資訊給他們。","另外，最近的臺中新光三越事件，也會衍生相關營業場所室內裝修申請、審核的問題，我想我們都必須要再加強。"],["蕭署長煥章：是。"],["李委員柏毅：另外，對於很多的天然災害，包含這些地震的消息，其實現在的認知作戰，在網路的訊息傳布上非常、非常地嚴重，常常會有一些散播災害不實消息的訊息，我在這邊也希望消防署還有內政部這邊嚴正這些訊息，如果有這些亂散播訊息的，比如說哪裡地震、哪裡開始火災什麼的，沒有經過查證去傳這些相關的訊息，我覺得對民眾都要做一定的宣導，不要讓民眾這樣誤傳。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員。這個部分有罰則，災害防救法裡面有罰則，就是散布不實災情訊息，這個我們都一直有在注意這樣的發展及不實訊息的傳遞以及後續的處理。"],["李委員柏毅：必須要做一定的宣導。"],["蕭署長煥章：好，感謝委員。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。次長，有關不實訊息的部分，你回應一下。"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們現在有幾個法律可以處理，第一個，如果是跟災害有關的話，氣象法、災害防救法都可以處理。另外如果是跟……"],["李委員柏毅：我們現在有沒有處罰、處分過？"],["馬次長士元：目前不實訊息沒有、災害防救法沒有，氣象法有，對於一些氣象粉專但沒有具備氣象播報員資格的，他們有處分，這是在交通部，我們社維法也有處分過。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員。"],["主席（張委員宏陸）：我們請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-4","speakers":["張宏陸","丁學忠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","李柏毅","王美惠","黃建賓","許宇甄","楊瓊瓔","吳琪銘","黃捷","徐欣瑩","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「災害防救法第三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n「災害防救法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「災害防救法第二\n十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1142901_00001"}}},{"id":"159357","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159357","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b838b82aa36c28bd87061b2f31bc5c916a9ba850061ce77509f7f6ec901b7cd90e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:49:25 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這個問題我跟署長也講過很久了啦齁這也不是為了我個人這最主要的是為了人民的生命財產還有保護我們消防弟兄做這些事情是為了這兩個目的而已這個我真的覺得應該要去做啊對不對齁 這個沒有"},{"start":274.81,"end":288.536,"text":"如果我是部長我覺得這沒有空間這一定要做好不好那再來我想請問一下防災室我們現在到底計畫做得如何啊署長防災室"},{"start":289.521,"end":311.718,"text":"是 感謝委員 防災是目前到去年底已經超過4萬人的一個培訓量那今年我們在整個由下而上的力量我們今年對於常備役跟替代役也做個普訓那目前的訓練量可能在今年應該可以達到10萬人左右的這個量這個正在進行當中"},{"start":313.58,"end":322.998,"text":"今年去年4萬今年會到10萬因為今年把常備役跟替代役這個現役的跟退役的量都納入訓練那民眾自主報名的勒"},{"start":323.752,"end":343.206,"text":"民眾自主報名現在我們也跟縣市來做一個協同合作那目前是每個縣市至少要三百位的量每個縣市三百位的量現在正在執行當中好 三百位啦每個縣市三百位好那我覺得你們要 既然要推這個計畫了經費也給你們了我覺得啦齁"},{"start":347.662,"end":365.107,"text":"民間自主報名的那才重要啦那些我說真的你不如說我去軍校我也每個人都要每個人這樣數字就很快了啊對不對好我們來努力謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":292,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時49分）請次長跟署長。"],["馬次長士元：召委早安。"],["張委員宏陸：署長，像剛剛說工廠的危險物品，我也跟你說過很多次了，現在科技都是AI了，你們到底有沒有具體的規劃？"],["蕭署長煥章：跟委員回報，委員一直關心危險物品跟建築物平面圖，我們目前兩個區塊，一個就是工廠危險物品在雲端，雲端這個區塊大概都已經到位，我們接下來會跟化學署再研究怎麼把這些化學物品AI化，讓我們的救災人員更能清楚掌握，產生化學物品反應以後造成什麼結果，目前先做到的就是，報案以後，我們可以把現場的九宮格狀況，就是GHS呈現的結果，先讓現場第一線同仁了解這個場所有哪些危險物品資訊在裡面，這是第一步已經做到，在派遣階段已經做到了。另外，再進一步的分析，分析以後怎麼得到這個資訊，這個有計畫正在執行當中。對於國土署這邊建築物平面圖這個區塊，我們後續是有個5年中程計畫，對119派遣系統在做一個精進，那兩個系統就是危險物品跟建築物平面圖這個區塊，我們也同步在做這方面的計畫跟執行當中，跟委員回報。"],["張委員宏陸：但這中間如果他有私自挪移，你在圖上是看不到的。"],["蕭署長煥章：這個是比較……所以我們很感謝委員，上個會期有通過消防法修正案，就是危險物品場所的人員要有專人於發生事故以後在現場做一個提報，讓我們的救災人員了解現場到底有沒有像委員所關心的變化。這個區塊他沒有做的話，我們在去年修法，處罰的額度相當重，上個月我們特別學習到日本Yokohama的經驗，就是要報告，那個區塊我們也把它具體化，就是讓專責人員要做什麼事、怎麼讓他跟我們消防救災人員做溝通，這個目前正在進行當中，很感謝委員關心。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有，其實有一個觀念都要改，次長，你知不知道現在自動倉儲化設備他們都怎麼做，他們連一個東西擺在哪裡、怎麼移動什麼的其實都AI化、電腦化了，移動任何一個，像你的東西如果要出貨，其實在鍵盤上打一打，自動輸送都直接出來了，倉儲都做得到，這個做不到嗎？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，一定規模的業者對倉儲的管理，它的自動化跟AI化沒有問題，我們現在有很多業者可能都是比較小型的或者是家庭式……"],["張委員宏陸：不是，我只問你做不做得到？以現在的科技做不做得到，你只回答我一句就好了。"],["馬次長士元：科技做得到。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！做得到就是啦！你針對大型的為什麼不去要求？沒有那麼多藉口啦！真正發生嚴重事情的就是大型嘛！中小型也不可能發生多大的爆炸，也不可能有多大的危險，它還是有，但對於這種大型業者，倉儲都做得到了，這個做不到？這就看出有沒有魄力要做而已啊！對不對？是不是？次長。"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，我們努力，我們會努力。"],["張委員宏陸：你們努力啦！這個問題我跟署長也講過很久了，這也不是為了我個人，最主要的是為了人民的生命、財產，還有保護我們消防弟兄，做這些事情是為了這兩個目的而已，這個我真的覺得應該要去做，對不對？如果我是部長，我覺得這沒有空間，一定要做，好不好？","再來，我想請問一下，防災士現在到底計畫做得如何，署長？"],["蕭署長煥章：防災士目前到去年底已經超過四萬人的培訓量，今年我們整個由下而上的力量，對於常備役跟替代役也做了普訓，目前的訓練量在今年應該可以達到10萬人左右的量，現在正在進行當中。"],["張委員宏陸：多少？"],["蕭署長煥章：10萬。"],["張委員宏陸：去年4萬，今年會到10萬？"],["蕭署長煥章：對，因為今年把常備役跟替代役現役跟退役的都納入訓練。"],["張委員宏陸：民眾自主報名的呢？"],["蕭署長煥章：民眾自主報名，現在我們也跟縣市來協同合作目前是每個縣市至少要有300位的量，現在正在執行當中。"],["張委員宏陸：好，300位。"],["蕭署長煥章：是，每個縣市300位。"],["張委員宏陸：好，你們要既然要推這個計畫了，經費也給你們了，我覺得民間自主報名的才重要，但那些什麼……我說真的，你不如說我去軍校，我也每個人都要，這樣數字就很快了，對不對？好，謝謝。"],["蕭署長煥章：好，我們來努力，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸召委。","再來我們請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-4","speakers":["張宏陸","丁學忠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","李柏毅","王美惠","黃建賓","許宇甄","楊瓊瓔","吳琪銘","黃捷","徐欣瑩","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「災害防救法第三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n「災害防救法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「災害防救法第二\n十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1142901_00001"}}},{"id":"159356","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159356","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b82ae525a2a55b6783061b2f31bc5c916a9ba850061ce77509d6c7337b7bc4e0405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:41:18 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鮑委員倉儲基本上他還是要基本的消防安全設備對那麼如果他儲存的不是所謂的危險物品的話那麼他還是需要在呃 我們的資訊介入權上面要告訴我們他裡面所儲存的內容是什麼因為他還是會有火災的風險"},{"start":143.479,"end":156.822,"text":"還是有火災的風險嘛但我們的消防法只能目前只能規範到就是說發生火災之後你要提供相關資訊嘛對不對可是平日的平日的防火和盤查跟檢查等等的這樣一個機制目前有沒有一個規章來做規範"},{"start":158.978,"end":187.64,"text":"我們目前是想要修請這個工廠輔導法裡面去處理這個問題理論上來講規範倉儲應該說規範相關防火的過去大家的重點都放在工廠所以是從工廠管理輔導法裡面來處理但剛剛我們也討論到其實工廠跟倉儲有一些本質上的差別那就造成一件事情就是工廠管理輔導法有規範很多跟防火相關的事情讓你的災害防救有辦法順利的進行可是倉儲沒有它等於是有點像漏網之魚這是第一個狀況"},{"start":188.28,"end":212.898,"text":"第二個狀況是即便現在的狀況是講說我工廠附屬的危險物品你是用倉儲的方式處理的時候你要納管但我那天跟基層的消防弟兄座談跟了解的時候他們提了一個問題很好我如果單純只是販賣危險物品因為產業鏈嘛我如果是進口外國進口商我進口一批化學藥劑它是屬於的危險物品但是我只是代理進口而已啊然後我進口之後我就放到了其中一個倉儲請問這樣的狀況是有沒有要申報的"},{"start":216.419,"end":242.12,"text":"鮑偉如果說他達到儲存管制量30倍以上那他基本上就要申報我們也要聯合稽查對但是問題是我這我就跟市長我們的認知可能就出現一點差別就我們的了解是基於工廠管理輔導法等等相關的延伸規定跟你災害防救規定所以是工廠端去處理這個事可是我剛剛講是進口喔我只是進過來然後找時間把它賣掉這個其實就我本期的了解從消防第一線的反應是他反而是找不到的"},{"start":243.035,"end":258.913,"text":"因為他沒有在這個守備範圍裡面所以這就是本期要提這個職權原因就從你的宅在房就白皮書裡面我希望齁這個針對倉儲的部分有進一步的進一步的討論啦我們當然一步到位就是說要全面納管或什麼當然很快然後也會造成一定的衝擊這本期完全理解"},{"start":259.373,"end":272.211,"text":"但是我覺得如果只做到資訊權是不夠的換言之我們要針對工廠管理輔導法要做進一步的討論現在內政部針對工廠管理輔導法如果要納緩倉儲或者是強化他的防火設備你們現在有什麼具體的規劃跟進度跟經濟部對話有沒有什麼具體的成果"},{"start":276.308,"end":291.503,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個部分當然剛剛委員有提到就是說行政院目前有政委在協調這件事情那如果說以消防署或是內政部的角度來看的話我們現在目前第一優先的是要去處理所謂的公共危險物品的倉庫"},{"start":292.564,"end":310.104,"text":"因為這個部分對於我們救災人員的威脅是最大的所以我們目前大概在地方政府回報我們總共納管了142家那這個不同的縣市政府有它的數字那這些都是我們在工廠之外的公共危險物品倉庫我們現在都已經納管"},{"start":312.29,"end":333.354,"text":"對 有沒有包含進口的市長你可以回去了解一下啦就本期的了解是進口比如說代理我只是專門進那個是漏網之魚這個我覺得立刻要處理如果可以有一套規章可以納管來做納管那第二個我還是希望未來工廠管理輔導法要有一定的修正跟考量倉儲跟工廠當然不一樣比如說工廠我們是用防火區劃的邏輯來規劃來做災害的預防"},{"start":337.375,"end":360.766,"text":"那當然你用倉儲你要求他用比照工廠用防火區法可能他就有實際上的困難因為他就對於倉儲的容量等等造成一些影響因為他也沒有產線沒有人啊對不對所以他有不同的說法那你們自己建築研究所其實也做過研究嘛也就是物流倉儲建築設置防火區法的方案研究裡面其實就有提到好像沒有辦法一體適用但是他們有提一個新的概念比如說有淨空隔離帶啊我只要讓區域"},{"start":361.886,"end":382.279,"text":"拉的夠開那你這個隔離帶剛好可以做比如說倉儲的這個運輸的一個動線等等那我覺得這表示你們其實有在做一些研究的那既然你們已經有針對倉儲的防火相關的一些規範已經有在做研究我就希望未來可以進到下一步的討論我們消防法只是第一步嘛工廠管理輔導法它可能不見得你要嘛就有個倉儲的專法嘛"},{"start":383.28,"end":397.553,"text":"要嘛就是也許在工廠管理輔導法裡面有一個倉促的專章在平常的時候他就要有納管跟防災的這樣的一些配套的機制這樣子的一個想法你們內政部打算有沒有執行的一個時間表或者說你有遇到一些阻力或難題"},{"start":398.755,"end":421.753,"text":"跟委員報告 我們目前在 剛剛委員提到就是說包括建研所他們所做的這些研究我們會把這些資訊再跟經濟部去做分享那至於說對倉儲業者 或者是倉儲的納管我們目前除了消防法之外那就是我們跟經濟部在公服法這塊 我們會去討論但是時間表的部分跟委員報告 目前我這邊所知是還沒有"},{"start":422.504,"end":441.269,"text":"我希望這部分稍微可以明確一點啦所以簡單就做個結論啦第一個就是說現在你針對既有危險物品的納管我希望你再進口這一端啦也就是說它非工廠生產出來的而是進口販賣的這一端它的倉儲的部分你要有一個專案的配套計畫那第二個我希望把"},{"start":442.801,"end":461.159,"text":"這個工廠管理服務法的修正你要提到有具體的一些做法比如說你有哪些條文要修正你至少內政部從防災的這個地方來出發你總可以有一些主張嘛那經濟部有哪些反應你如果沒有一些條文或者是沒有一些內容的話恐怕有困難這一點我希望喔我給這個次長一個月的時間啦"},{"start":461.98,"end":472.93,"text":"好 做一下相關的一些規範比如說你們對話了幾次開了哪些會議目前遇到的狀況是怎麼樣修法預計的期程是什麼這讓本席一個月之內有書面資料可以掌握可以嗎好 我們提供資料給委員好 謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":265,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時41分）謝謝主席，馬次長有請。"],["主席：好，請馬次長。"],["馬次長士元：委員早安。"],["牛委員煦庭：次長早安。本席一直都非常關心倉儲防火的部分，當然今天討論災害防救法，文字上的一些修正跟微調還有一些精神的加強，本席都敬表支持，希望審議的過程可以順利。但是討論法條，我覺得不如好好去看一看我們的災害防救白皮書，並且跟本席一直都關心的倉儲防災的部分來做一個討論。","113年的災害防救白皮書有針對工廠的安全統合管理機制提很多的對策，比如說盤查、管理、查核、演練等等，對不對？這都是題中應有之義，113年的8月21日，陳金德政委也有主持跟倉儲有關的會議，因為倉儲其實有討論了一段時間，就是說要強化倉儲業者的危險物品管理研商。所以有把危險物品拉出來，不管是不是存放在工廠的廠區之內，但是倉庫或寄存只要是危險物品的時候，它應該就要有所謂的依法申報的一個程序，但大體來講它還是附屬在工廠下面的，也就是工廠如果有危險物品的管理原料，如果倉儲它是要申報的。再加上我們去年通過的消防法修正案也有把一定規模以上的倉儲納管，但那個討論的是火災發生的時候，消防救災的資訊權的確保，所以其實有一點點的進度，但我還是要繼續往前來追蹤這個題目，因為我相信，以目前這樣子的一個防守的強度，大概還是很難杜絕所有倉儲的火災。我就先請教一下次長，倉儲跟工廠的類型是不是一樣？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，是不同的。"],["牛委員煦庭：應該是不同的，對不對？這我也不用問經濟部，其實是非常清楚的，從防災的角度來講它也是不一樣的。現在以你從防災主觀這樣子一個角度來出發，如果說倉儲只存放一般物品，有沒有必要要擴大納管，或者是要怎麼樣來納管，有沒有討論過這樣的事情？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，倉儲基本上還是要有基本的消防安全設備，如果它儲存的不是所謂的危險物品的話，它還是需要在我們的資訊揭露權上面要告訴我們它裡面所儲存的內容是什麼，因為它還是會有火災的風險。"],["牛委員煦庭：還是有火災的風險，但我們的消防法目前只能規範到發生火災之後，你要提供相關資訊，對不對？可是平日的防火和盤查跟檢查等等的機制，目前有沒有一個規章來規範？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，我們目前是想要修……請工廠輔導法裡面去處理這個問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，這就是本席今天要強調的，理論上來講，規範倉儲……應該說規範相關防火的，過去大家的重點都放在工廠，所以就是從工廠管理輔導法裡面來處理，但剛剛我們也討論到，其實工廠跟倉儲有一些本質上的差別，那就造成一件事情，就是工廠管理輔導法有規範很多跟防火相關的事情，讓你的災害防救有辦法順利地進行，可是倉儲沒有，它等於是有點像漏網之魚，這是第一個狀況。第二個狀況是即便現在的狀況是講工廠附屬的危險物品，你是用倉儲的方式處理的時候，你要納管。但我那天跟基層的消防弟兄座談跟了解的時候，他們提了一個問題很好，我如果單純只是販賣危險物品，因為產業鏈嘛！我如果是外國進口商，我進口一批化學藥劑，它是屬於危險物品，但是我只是代理進口而已，然後我進口之後，就放到了其中一個倉儲，請問這樣的狀況是有沒有要申報？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，如果它達到儲存管制量三十倍以上，基本上就要申報，我們也要聯合稽查。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是問題是，次長，我們的認知可能就出現一點差別，就我們的了解是，基於工廠管理輔導法等相關延伸規定及災害防救的規定，是工廠端去處理這件事。可是我剛剛的講是進口，只是進過來然後找時間把它賣掉，這個其實就本席的了解，從消防第一線的反映是，它反而是查不到的，因為它沒有在守備範圍裡面，所以這就是本席今天要提這個質詢的原因，就是從你的災害防救白皮書裡面，我希望針對倉儲的部分有進一步的討論，一步到位就是要全面納管或是什麼，那當然很快，也會造成一定的衝擊，這本席完全理解，但是我覺得如果只做到資訊權是不夠的。換言之，我們要針對工廠管理輔導法要做進一步的討論，現在內政部針對工廠管理輔導法如果要納管倉儲或者是強化其防火設備，你們現在有什麼具體的規劃跟進度？跟經濟部對話有沒有什麼具體的成果？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，剛剛委員有提到，行政院目前有政委在協調這件事情，如果以消防署或是內政部的角度來看的話，我們現在目前第一優先是要處理公共危險物品的倉庫，因為這個部分對於我們救災人員的威脅最大。"],["牛委員煦庭：是最大的，沒錯。"],["馬次長士元：所以目前大概地方政府回報，我們總共納管了142家，不同的縣市政府有它的數字，這些都是在工廠之外的公共危險物品倉庫，我們現在都已經納管。"],["牛委員煦庭：有沒有包含進口？次長，你可以回去了解一下。"],["馬次長士元：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：就本席的了解，進口比如說代理，我只是專門進、放在倉庫，那個是漏網之魚。"],["馬次長士元：是，好。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個我覺得立刻要處理，如果可以有一套規章納管就來納管。第二個，我還是希望未來工廠管理輔導法要有一定的修正跟考量，倉儲跟工廠當然不一樣，比如說，工廠我們是用防火區劃的邏輯來規劃災害的預防，當然倉儲要求它比照工廠用防火區劃，可能就有實際上的困難，因為它對於倉儲的容量等等造成一些影響，因為它沒有產線也沒有人，對不對？所以有不同的說法，你們建築研究所其實也做過研究，就是「物流倉儲建築物設置防火區劃方案研究」裡面其實就有提到，好像沒有辦法一體適用，但是他們有提一個新的概念，比如說有淨空隔離帶，只要讓區域拉得夠開，這個隔離帶剛好可以做比如說倉儲運輸動線等等，我覺得這表示你們其實有在做一些研究，既然你們針對倉儲防火相關的一些規範已經有在做研究，我就希望未來可以進到下一步的討論，消防法只是第一步嘛！工廠管理輔導法可能不見得……要嘛就有個倉儲專法，要嘛也許在工廠管理輔導法裡面有一個倉儲專章，在平常的時候就要有納管跟防災這樣的一些配套機制，這樣子的想法，內政部有沒有執行的時間表或者有遇到一些阻力或難題？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，目前在剛剛委員提到的就是，包括建研所所做的這些研究，我們會把這些資訊再跟經濟部分享。至於對倉儲業者或者是倉儲的納管，目前除了消防法之外，就是我們跟經濟部在工輔法這塊會去討論，但是時間表的部分，跟委員報告，目前我所知是還沒有。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我希望這部分稍微可以明確一點，簡單做個結論，第一個，現在針對既有危險物品的納管，我希望在進口這一端，也就是非工廠生產出來而是進口販賣這一端倉儲的部分，要有一個專案的配套計畫。第二個，我希望把工廠管理輔導法的修正要提到一些具體作法，比如說有哪些條文要修正，至少內政部從防災的這個地方出發，總可以有一些主張，而經濟部有哪些反應，如果沒有一些條文或者是一些內容的話，恐怕有困難。這一點我希望給次長一個月的時間做相關的一些規範，比如說你們對話幾次、開了哪些會議、目前遇到狀況是怎麼樣、修法的預計期程等，讓本席一個月之內有書面資料可以掌握，可以嗎？"],["馬次長士元：好，我們提供資料給委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員。"],["主席（黃委員捷代）：謝謝牛煦庭委員。","接下來我們請張宏陸召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-4","speakers":["張宏陸","丁學忠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","李柏毅","王美惠","黃建賓","許宇甄","楊瓊瓔","吳琪銘","黃捷","徐欣瑩","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「災害防救法第三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n「災害防救法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「災害防救法第二\n十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1142901_00001"}}},{"id":"159355","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159355","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8880440d62a1a0421061b2f31bc5c916a9ba850061ce77509eabdaf21c288ba395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:31:39 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修善還有合法補助時依據標準是緊急性的重建性還是會考量說我們的災民的經濟狀況呢"},{"start":58.632,"end":77.791,"text":"要如何去補助的 如何去修繕報委 我們現在只要是地震發生之後我們第一個最重要的工作就是我們會請結構技師的這個工會來支援我們那去做建築物的一個災損的勘查那就是我們所謂的紅單跟黃單"},{"start":79.412,"end":96.818,"text":"那這一次的這個嘉義大埔震災它比較特別一點是因為它不是一次地震它是很多次地震一直累積起來所以它是一個有一點慢的災害那所以在每一次的這個不斷的這樣的一個地震的過程裡面它的這個紅黃單就會變化"},{"start":98.999,"end":124.63,"text":"那他要不斷的去追這個進度然後張貼到底是紅單或黃單那災禍補助的部分目前全國是有一個統一的標準只是說居民被張貼了這個紅黃單之後他後續的這個處理的方式是不一樣的所以在這個部分我們可能會有一些同仁他們如果需要委員需要細部的回答的話我們是不是可以請同仁來做補充好委員好"},{"start":128.956,"end":153.356,"text":"那就是說我們針對這個這兩次地震我們在租金補貼或是這個耐震落成補強補貼的方面我們基本上那個金額跟機制都是一致的都是統一的統一的標準以上謝謝所以我們全國都一致不是因為專案來去補助所以說如果是這樣子的話關於就是你的回復是說"},{"start":154.316,"end":178.219,"text":"建議先應用善款處理不足的部分再向行政院爭取贈災基金的提供所以目前的機制範圍監督是這些善款流向還有細部的使用的情形如何我們善款流向是我們請贈災基金會因為他們是主管善款的部分"},{"start":179.616,"end":190.963,"text":"所以说都会达到因为时间有限所以都是达到我们是及时紧急的补助嘛这个部分就是上款的部分"},{"start":191.801,"end":213.102,"text":"還有申請的流程有就是說各個區因為一個地方有很多區不同剛才你說就是不同的就是一直後續的去產生所以說這樣的災民你覺得是補助是就是一致性的有公平嗎有滿足說這個災民的需要嗎"},{"start":217.281,"end":237.557,"text":"我們目前的作業程序這都是由村里長跟公所來合作那民眾他本身在受災的這個第一時間我們會有所謂的救助那救助的部分就是由公所跟村里長去做調查之後認定然後來發放這樣的一個救助的金額"},{"start":238.377,"end":259.635,"text":"是,但是我看到剛才你說因為勘查的時候是由我們的技術工會來辦理那個是針對房屋對,針對房屋還有補助,所以你剛才有講說但是說紅單跟黃單的影響居住補助的差別"},{"start":260.515,"end":284.313,"text":"所以請教我們市長現在的你勘察的除了就是統一表格以外會不會因為不同的機制就是認定就是有差別所以如何鎮定這種差異以免我們在乎無法是實際可以去領這個補助我們是關心的是說因為你看的是黃單跟"},{"start":287.97,"end":301.907,"text":"紅單但是有的黃單他們是低收或者是說有及時需要的時候你們有沒有其他的就是一個規定還有就是幫忙這個才是我們最關心的"},{"start":303.573,"end":322.244,"text":"我們所有的這個紅黃單的張貼他在七十天之內他會由這個所謂的三大祭祀公會來做緊急扶貧那緊急扶貧 緊急評估完之後民眾還是可以跟當地政府申請扶貧"},{"start":323.084,"end":350.712,"text":"那目前我們在0121的這個地震都是由地方政府他現在在受理扶貧所以以這個委員所提到的就是我們的祭祀公會在對紅黃單的認定他是有一致的標準他有一致的規定那民眾如果對於這個認定他認為有疑義的話他會申請扶貧但是基本上我們都會從寬去做認定去協助民眾在災後能夠獲得最大的一個支持"},{"start":351.392,"end":366.068,"text":"很好所以讓我們的民眾才了解說你是用一致的標準來去勘察還有就是說我們花蓮跟我們嘉義的地震是補助也是同樣都是同一個標準這樣的話對我們在地震的地區的民眾"},{"start":371.454,"end":375.057,"text":"他們才會覺得是說公平是 謝謝委員關係還有第二個想要去問我們就是消防署的署長關於我們就是台中新冠三月就發生七爆造成很多人死亡"},{"start":388.249,"end":394.372,"text":"但是除了事後追查原因責任外我們更應該重視我們公共場所的措施安全還有就是實施還有預防因為初步報告我們看到的氣爆現場不排除因為切除瓦斯管線時就是瓦斯外洩導致施工產生的氣爆但是因為瓦斯氣爆我們火災的自動警報設備"},{"start":416.985,"end":417.588,"text":"依據各類場所消防安全設備的"},{"start":422.855,"end":449.402,"text":"設置標準規定使用瓦斯是地下地下層的建築屋才需要安裝但是經過這次的七報案有沒有重新研議增加需要裝設就是偵測的場所還有是否考量我們公共建設密閉式的時候強化建設就是瓦斯外洩偵測的設備"},{"start":451.583,"end":456.06,"text":"有沒有這樣的一個計畫或者行政做措施"},{"start":456.544,"end":476.852,"text":"好感謝委員垂詢新光三越這個場所因為是屬於賣場所以它本身就有天然氣使用也有裝置設備偵測設備那只不過說因為施工過程當中它沒有把這個設備維護正常使用功能造成天然氣漏氣沒辦法偵測到這個簡報的一個問題所以針對這個設備不能使用台中市也針對不能使用的狀況開放"},{"start":485.555,"end":501.209,"text":"那對於施工中的防火管理沒有施作也有做開發的動作跟委員做報告所以針對這樣的規定我們是說要求是地下設的建物現在的話我們的建築都有這樣的設備的要求"},{"start":509.48,"end":536.369,"text":"所以這樣的話我們是因為在過程中我們要如何讓說嚴格再去把關因為現在跟以前不一樣以前這是我們是樓層現在都是高樓所以說這些的建設或者是說我們要遵守就安全的標準還有我們的承包商我們的罰款也是要這個也是行我們的署長"},{"start":537.334,"end":560.858,"text":"這邊要去把關希望我們就是就是在關於這個危險物還有高風險這個部分我們要多多用心所以說希望我們的安全的部分和我們的署長這邊希望大家共同來去達到最更好的所以剛才你回答這個部分我希望說我們的高樓還有我們地方都要去"},{"start":564.912,"end":568.342,"text":"把這樣子的標準來去做好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":237,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（9時31分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：請馬次長。"],["馬次長士元：委員早安。"],["麥委員玉珍：次長早。請教一下，我們處在常常地震的臺灣，從921地震之後，我們開始特別注重災後重建及建築安全，針對日前0121嘉義大埔地震災後的補助，不同類型的災損復原，像是拆除重建、補強、修繕還有核發補助時，依據標準是緊急性的還是會考量我們災民的經濟狀況？要如何去補助？如何去修繕？"],["馬次長士元：報告委員，現在只要是地震發生之後，我們第一個最重要的工作就是會請結構技師公會來支援我們，去做建築物災損的勘查，就是所謂的紅單跟黃單。這一次嘉義大埔震災比較特別一點，因為它不是一次地震，它是很多次地震一直累積起來，所以它是一個有點慢的災害，在每一次、不斷的地震過程裡面，它的紅、黃單就會變化，要不斷地去追這個進度，然後張貼到底是紅單或黃單。而災後補助的部分，目前全國是有統一標準，只是居民被張貼了紅、黃單之後，他後續的處理方式是不一樣的，所以在這個部分，我們可能會有一些同仁……如果委員需要細部地回答，我們是不是可以請同仁來做補充？"],["麥委員玉珍：好！"],["張專門委員渝欣：委員好。我們針對這兩次的地震，在租金補貼或是耐震弱層補強、補貼方面，基本上金額跟機制都是一致的、都有統一的標準，以上，謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：OK。所以我們全國都一致，不是因為專案去補助，如果是這樣的話，你的回復是建議先應用善款處理，不足的部分，再向行政院爭取震災基金的提供，所以以目前的機制，範圍與監督是怎麼運作，善款流向還有細部使用的情形是如何？"],["馬次長士元：善款流向是震災基金會負責，我們請震災基金會回答，因為他們是主管善款的部分。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，因為時間有限。對於善款的部分，都會有即時緊急的補助嗎？申請的流程，各個區……因為一個地方有很多區不同，剛才你說不同的就是一直後續去產生，所以對於災民補助是一致性的，你覺得有公平嗎？有滿足災民的需要嗎？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們目前的作業程序都是由村里長跟公所來合作，民眾本身在受災的第一時間，我們會有所謂的救助，救助的部分就是由公所跟村里長去做調查之後認定，然後來發放這樣的救助的金額，至於說……"],["麥委員玉珍：是，但是剛才你說因為勘查的時候是由我們的就是技師公會來辦理……"],["馬次長士元：那個是針對房屋。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，針對房屋還有補助，所以你剛才有講，但是紅單跟黃單會影響居住補助的差別。所以請教我們次長，現在你勘查的，除了統一表格以外，會不會因為不同的技師認定會有差別？所以如何降低差異，以免我們受災戶無法實際去領補助，我們關心的是因為你看的是黃單跟紅單，但是有的黃單，他們是低收或者是有即時需要的時候，你們有沒有其他的規定還有幫忙，這個才是我們最關心的。"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們所有紅黃單的張貼，在10天之內會由所謂的三大技師公會做緊急評估，緊急評估完之後，民眾還是可以跟當地政府申請複評，目前0121的地震都是由地方政府現在在受理複評，所以委員所提到的，我們的技師公會在對紅黃單的認定是有一致的標準、有一致的規定，民眾如果對於這個認定認為有疑義的話，他會申請複評，但是基本上我們都會從寬做認定，協助民眾在災後能夠獲得最大的支持。"],["麥委員玉珍：很好，所以讓我們的民眾能了解你是用一致的標準去勘查，還有花蓮跟嘉義的地震補助也是同樣一套的……"],["馬次長士元：都是同一個標準。"],["麥委員玉珍：這樣對在地震地區的民眾，他們才會覺得公平。"],["馬次長士元：是，謝謝委員關心。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，第二個想要問消防署的署長，關於我們臺中新光三越發生氣爆，造成很多人死亡，但是除了事後追查原因責任外，我們更應該重視公共場所的措施安全還有實施預防。因為初步報告，我們看到的氣爆現場，不排除因為切除瓦斯管線時瓦斯外洩導致施工產生的氣爆，但是就瓦斯氣爆而言，我們火災的自動警報設備，依據各類場所消防安全設備的設置標準，規定使用瓦斯是地下層的建築物才需要安裝，但是經過這次的氣爆案，有沒有重新研議增加需要裝設偵測的場所？還有是否考量當公共建築為密閉式的時候，強化設置瓦斯外洩偵測的設備，有沒有這樣子的一個計畫或者行政措施？"],["蕭署長煥章：好，感謝委員垂詢。新光三越這個場所因為是屬於賣場，所以它本身就有天然氣使用也有裝置偵測設備，只不過說因為施工過程當中，它沒有把設備維護、發揮正常使用功能，造成天然氣漏氣沒辦法偵測到警報的問題，所以針對設備不能使用，臺中市也針對不能使用的狀況開罰。對於防火管理施工中的防火管理沒有施作，也有做開罰的動作，我想跟委員做這方面的報告。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，所以針對這樣的規定，我們是要求地下室的建物要嘛！"],["蕭署長煥章：對，地下室建築物要做。"],["麥委員玉珍：現在我們的建築都有這樣子的設備要求？"],["蕭署長煥章：是，沒有錯。"],["麥委員玉珍：OK，所以在過程中我們要如何嚴格再去把關，因為現在跟以前不一樣，對不對？以前是低樓層，現在都是高樓，所以說這些建築我們要遵守安全的標準，還有我們的承包商……及罰款也是要請署長要去把關。希望署長在關於危險物還有高風險這個部分，我們要多多用心，我們的安全的部分，希望大家共同達到更好的。所以剛才你回答的這個部分，我希望我們的高樓還有地方都要去把這樣子的標準做好，謝謝。"],["蕭署長煥章：好，感謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-4","speakers":["張宏陸","丁學忠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","李柏毅","王美惠","黃建賓","許宇甄","楊瓊瓔","吳琪銘","黃捷","徐欣瑩","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「災害防救法第三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n「災害防救法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「災害防救法第二\n十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1142901_00001"}}},{"id":"159354","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159354","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b829df206a7d4dff8b061b2f31bc5c916a9ba850061ce77509b7349d8067d4e87d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:22:21 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就是那個地下管線的部分我們在那個高雄氣爆之後已經有要求各事業主管機關把管線的資訊移交到我們的消防機關還有國科會"},{"start":141.311,"end":163.074,"text":"那我們目前在檔案的部分我們都有建立那管線的建置因為有不同的年代所以它不同的年代它在衛星定位跟這個管線的深埋的這個問題上面可能會有一些落差所以也透過這幾年我們在圖資上面不斷的更新目前當然我們對管線的位置跟它的深度大概都能夠掌握"},{"start":163.815,"end":192.01,"text":"但是就是圖資的部分我們沒有問題所以如果說哪一段管線它有狀況的話我們在119的系統在我們的EMIC的系統我們都看得到它在什麼位置但是剛剛委員所垂詢的有關於管線腐蝕老舊跟替換的問題因為主管機關目前是經濟部所以這個部分在管線管理的部分我們是不是可以請經濟部這邊來做一下回應好請經濟部的曾副局長謝謝"},{"start":193.251,"end":198.576,"text":"首先謝謝委員關心我們的業務那跟委員報告就是針對整個地下管線的部分不管是它的在做腐蝕相關的這個監控部分其實我們都有有在做我們的即時監控同時我們也會要求業者要提出針對整個的管線維護營運管理的計劃那每一年提出來之後我們隔年也都會配合相關的單位包含地方政府我們會去做這個相關查核的部分"},{"start":218.153,"end":236.625,"text":"好等一下謝謝副局長那這邊當然這個經濟部像中央政府單位其實都是以這個督導的方式來做那所以希望說未來跟地方政府的溝通就是說要定期就像副局長講的定期然後如果任何的問題其實大家可以多做溝通協調好謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":239.147,"end":265.596,"text":"好那再請市長市長那我請教一下我看這個問題就是說現在我們很多的都會去就像剛剛不管講了高雄的過去的這個起爆事件大家都不想看到這樣的發生了那台灣都市區有有些道路我也常今年來發生的道路坍塌那許多案例跟地下管線的破損有或滲漏有關了但是你可以請教次長是不是有有辦法建立建立這些道路坍塌監測相關的一個機制"},{"start":268.377,"end":292.115,"text":"現在有這樣的機制嗎?跟委員回報,就是道路坍塌的機制部分目前我們應該是沒有相關的監測機制那道路主管機關因為分屬於交通部跟內政部各有不同的管轄的範圍那我們在平時的道路養護就是說在這個道路養護工程單位他會去做監測但是沒有一個剛剛委員所提到就是說一個比較完整的監測機制"},{"start":293.516,"end":311.021,"text":"好是不是請市長那你有沒有有沒有機會這個內政部可以提出相關的一個規劃就是說未來我們的道路除了去大家知道說平常要把它重新這個重新整修以外有沒有考慮說要提出這個有關於道路有可能坍塌牽涉的相關的機制"},{"start":312.621,"end":335.431,"text":"這個部分我們回頭請國土署那國土署這邊有關於管線的單位還有我們道路轄管的機關我們會去做這樣的一個尤其是雙北六都因為現在這個整個地狹人稠的一個部分所以我覺得未來就是道路灘它的部分如果可以提早的去了解那以及為周邊如果有一些重大建設的開挖其實相關的資料我就認為都可以給國土署做一個相對應的參考"},{"start":338.122,"end":355.195,"text":"好 謝謝那第二個再請教我們那個馬次長的部分剛剛有特別提出來就是說有關於施工有時候誤挖平船塗資管理落後剛剛有講到高雄這個氣爆事件其實內政部已經有在協助的一個部分可是針對如果沒有發生重大"},{"start":356.356,"end":383.09,"text":"問題的這個地方是不是還是有突支的一些相關的問題所以才造成說這個有時候挖下去的時候發現說管道跟實際上的狀況不太一樣的問題那是不是說除了一些過去有發生災害的一個地方是不是其他有任何的經濟改善措施就是說來讓其他六都比較重要的一些城市地下管路突支的一些正確性"},{"start":384.17,"end":388.21,"text":"有沒有辦法建立一個全國性的地下管線投資登錄平台"},{"start":390.442,"end":419.337,"text":"跟委員報告目前就是說在我們地下管線的部分比較容易發生狀況是天然瓦斯的管線那其他有關於電力水力因為它分屬於不同的主管機關所以我們現在塗製的部分我們是有那至於說剛剛委員提到就是說施工單位本身它在面對這樣的一個施工環境裡面能不能夠掌握這個管線的位置這可能包括地方政府還有施工單位它要去做這樣的一個查核"},{"start":420.097,"end":448.039,"text":"所以內政部這邊我們會跟經濟部合作有關於管線的部分在道路底下的管線我們會去合作跟地方政府來合作但是如果說牽涉到施工的部分的話可能就要由地方政府跟施工單位來一起努力好 那有沒有建立因為現在的圖資就我個人現在所了解都是在地方政府的這個施工單位去調相關的圖嘛那有沒有辦法說未來有建立全國的地下管線的圖資登錄平台"},{"start":449.701,"end":454.934,"text":"全國的地下管線都是在各自處理嗎?沒有,但是全國我們才"},{"start":458.041,"end":484.241,"text":"沒關係這個部分如果沒有辦法的話就是我們的期待啦好不好好那接下來我再請教經濟部好不好經濟部那目前來講齁這個台灣的天然氣的需求尤其現在台灣的電力政策能源政策是這個以氣來取代這個燃煤嘛齁所以天然氣的需求近年不大增加齁那目前靠一階跟二階來穩定供應天然氣並降低燃煤發電比例喔那這些輸氣管喔"},{"start":485.362,"end":505.194,"text":"那很多專家學者認為說這管線負荷很大的一些問題的狀況安全性跟穩定性真有疑慮那如果像一階二階的天然氣的輸送管是否承擔了高負荷的運送任務那有沒有做這個長期壓力有沒有做這個定期進行管線的壽命評估的這些作業"},{"start":507.114,"end":526.791,"text":"謝謝委員指導那這個部分可能後續我們再來跟中油或是我們部內的主管單位我們讓他確認一下那如果委員有需要我們再跟委員做進一步的報告好那最後還是感謝這個次長經濟部就有關於這個人民的安全就是說長期埋在地下的這些不管是"},{"start":527.852,"end":539.526,"text":"這個下水道還有剛剛講的這個天然氣比較容易有造成問題的部分還是希望說各部會跨部會來因應現在台灣的極端氣候等影響跟地震影響來做整體的規劃謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":211,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時22分）謝謝主席。各位委員、各位官員，大家早。有請馬次長，還有經濟部曾副局長。"],["主席：馬次長、曾副局長。"],["馬次長士元：委員早安。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝馬次長。今天要討論的是有關於災防法的議題，我首先還是要對內政部及警政、消防給予肯定，因為在災害發生時，內政部跟第一線的警政、消防應該都做了最大的努力和最及時的處理，所以我還是要代表立法院、代表所有國人感謝第一線執勤人員的辛勞，我相信今天委員們質詢的部分，很多都是希望未來中央跟地方可以一起共同合作，在災害發生的過程中，能夠減少一些傷亡跟財產損失。所以第一個我要請教次長的是，現在我們很多地下管線都還有老舊的問題，可能潛藏重大災害，因為臺灣的都市發展迅速，基礎建設也非常密集，比如像天然氣管線、石化輸送管、排水系統、電力、電信管線、污水及排水相關設施等，這些重要的基礎生命線遍布全臺，可是因為深埋地底下，導致長年受到疏忽，相關的問題，如果有因為管理不當而弊病叢生，常會成為公共安全上的一個重大隱憂。各個縣市如果地下管線已經使用超過30年，一般的腐蝕、洩漏問題嚴重，可能會影響到公共安全，請問次長，現在內政部有辦法統計有多少逾齡管線在使用嗎？你們有沒有一些定期監測機制，又如何汰換這些老舊管線？這是一個很大的問題，次長，你現在有辦法回答嗎？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，我們就內政部的部分先跟委員回報……"],["張委員智倫：對，就是地下管線的部分。"],["馬次長士元：我們在高雄氣爆之後，已經有要求各事業主管機關把管線的資訊移交到消防機關及國科會，目前檔案的部分我們都有建立。管線的建置有不同的年代，而不同的年代在衛星定位跟管線深埋問題上，可能就會有一些落差。所以這幾年也透過我們在圖資上面不斷地更新，目前當然我們對管線的位置跟它的深度大概都能夠掌握；在圖資的部分，我們沒有問題，如果哪一段管線有狀況的話，我們在119系統、在EMIC系統，我們都看得到它在什麼位置。但是剛剛委員所垂詢的關於管線腐蝕、老舊跟替換的問題，因為主管機關目前是經濟部，所以在管線管理的部分，我們是不是可以請經濟部來做一下回應？謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：可以、可以。好，請經濟部曾副局長，謝謝。"],["曾副局長琡芬：首先謝謝委員關心我們的業務。跟委員報告，針對整個地下管線的部分，不管是在做腐蝕相關的監控，其實我們都有在做即時監控，同時我們也會要求業者提出針對整個管線維護、營運管理的計畫，在每一年提出來之後，隔年也都會配合相關的單位，包含地方政府，我們會去做相關的查核，以上報告。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝副局長。當然像經濟部、中央政府單位都是以督導的方式來做，所以希望未來跟地方政府的溝通要定期，就像副局長講的定期，如果有任何的問題，其實大家可以多做溝通、協調，謝謝。"],["曾副局長琡芬：謝謝委員。"],["張委員智倫：再請次長。次長，我請教一下這個問題，現在我們很多的都會區，就像剛剛講的過去高雄的氣爆事件，大家都不想看到這樣的事發生，臺灣都市區有些道路今年也常發生道路坍塌，許多案例跟地下管線的破損或滲漏有關，是不是可以請教次長，是不是有辦法建立道路坍塌監測相關的機制？現在有這樣的機制嗎？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員回報，對道路坍塌的部分，目前我們應該是沒有相關的監測機制，因為道路主管機關分屬於交通部跟內政部，各有不同的管轄範圍，在平時道路養護工程單位會去做監測，但是沒有如剛剛委員所提到的有比較完整的監測機制。"],["張委員智倫：好。次長，有沒有機會由內政部可以提出相關的規劃？未來我們的道路，除了大家知道的平常要把它重新整修以外，有沒有考慮要提出關於道路有可能坍塌監測相關的機制？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，這部分我們回頭請國土署有關於管線的單位，還有道路轄管的機關，我們會去做這樣的努力。"],["張委員智倫：尤其是雙北、六都，因為現在整個地狹人稠，我覺得未來對道路坍塌的部分，如果可以提早去瞭解，以及周邊如果有一些重大建設的開挖，我認為相關的資料都可以給國土署做相對應的參考，謝謝。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員。"],["張委員智倫：第二個，再請教馬次長，剛剛有特別提出來，關於施工有時候誤挖頻傳、圖資管理落後，剛剛有講到高雄的氣爆事件，其實內政部已經有在協助，可是針對如果沒有發生重大問題的地方，是不是還是有一些圖資問題，所以才造成有時候挖下去，發現管道跟實際上狀況不太一樣的問題。除了一些過去有發生災害的地方，是不是有任何精進的改善措施，來讓其他六都、比較重要的一些城市，針對地下管路圖資的正確性，有沒有辦法建立一個全國性的地下管線圖資登錄平臺？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，目前在地下管線的部分，比較容易發生狀況的是天然瓦斯管線，其他有關於電力、水力，因為它分屬於不同的主管機關，所以現在我們是有圖資的部分，至於剛剛委員提到的施工單位本身在面對施工環境裡面，能不能夠掌握管線的位置，包括地方政府，還有施工單位，它要去這樣的查核。在道路底下的管線，內政部會跟經濟部合作，也會跟地方政府合作，但是如果牽涉到施工的部分，可能就要由地方政府跟施工單位一起努力。"],["張委員智倫：好。那有沒有建立？因為現在的圖資，就我個人現在所瞭解，都是在地方政府的施工單位去調相關的圖，有沒有辦法未來建立全國地下管線的圖資登錄平臺？"],["馬次長士元：全國地下管線都是各自在處理的，但是全國我們在……"],["張委員智倫：沒關係，這部分如果沒有辦法的話，這是我們的期待，好不好？接下來我再請教經濟部，目前來講，臺灣天然氣的需求，尤其現在臺灣的電力政策、能源政策是以氣來取代燃煤，所以天然氣的需求近年不斷地增加，目前靠一接跟二接來穩定供應天然氣，並降低燃煤發電比例，當然很多專家學者認為管線負荷很大的狀況，其安全性跟穩定性仍有疑慮，像一接、二接的天然氣輸送管是否承擔了高負荷的運送任務，有沒有定期進行管線壽命評估的作業？"],["曾副局長琡芬：謝謝委員指導。這個部分可能後續我們再來跟中油，或者是部內的主管單位，我們跟他們確認一下，如果委員有需要，我們再跟委員做進一步的報告。"],["張委員智倫：好。最後，還是要感謝次長、經濟部就有關於人民的安全，對長期埋在地下的這些，不管是下水道，還有剛剛講的天然氣管線比較容易造成問題的部分，還是希望跨部會因應現在臺灣極端氣候跟地震的影響來做整體規劃，謝謝。"],["馬次長士元：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們請麥玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-4","speakers":["張宏陸","丁學忠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","李柏毅","王美惠","黃建賓","許宇甄","楊瓊瓔","吳琪銘","黃捷","徐欣瑩","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「災害防救法第三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n「災害防救法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「災害防救法第二\n十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1142901_00001"}}},{"id":"159353","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159353","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8f18191a7b376e642061b2f31bc5c916a9ba850061ce77509f22a5a2e4754ce135ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:13:58 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不好意思那我們請馬次長好 請馬次長"},{"start":11.436,"end":35.161,"text":"好 市長好那我們今天其實要處理的這個是災害防救法那我是認為啦其實法令在怎麼完備它其實還是有非常多的執行細節需要來討論那比如說我自己啊我們在這個新北市當中其實就有很多的地方它就是有設有這種在勘測災害的這種雷達像我們上次有去看的這個是五分山的雷達站"},{"start":36.081,"end":51.485,"text":"光是一個雷達站呢你需要考慮到的就是有氣象的部分嘛然後還有其他種種的資訊甚至是連去這個地方的交通等等都需要去討論那我想知道就是其實在法令之外您能不能夠借用這個這個備詢的時間喔告訴我們一下說"},{"start":55.126,"end":68.443,"text":"法令如何來整備跨部會的協助又或者是在法令之餘你們已經又做了什麼樣的精進作為讓我們可以更知道說其實現在政府對於災害防救已經到什麼樣的程度"},{"start":69.312,"end":88.064,"text":"好謝謝委員我想因為我們現在的災防法的架構是把災害類別分給部會那但是我們有很多的災害必須是由目的事業主管機關來合作比如說剛剛委員提到像氣象站氣象站是由交通部來負責"},{"start":89.405,"end":105.612,"text":"氣象的資訊在分享到各個部會尤其是經濟部有關於降雨、水利的部分還有交通部有關於公路的通阻的部分在平時事實上我們有建構EMIC的資訊系統在做情資分享"},{"start":106.252,"end":124.104,"text":"那如果是在應變中心開設的期間的話各部會的同仁都會到應變中心來做報告所以這個部分的資訊分享目前跟委員報告在國內我們算是國際上很有效率而且在執行這個所謂的災害情勢分享上面很有"},{"start":126.015,"end":152.794,"text":"那現在比較需要強化的部分主要就是在目的世界主管機關對於特定災害的防護那必須要再去做大幅度的一個精進比如說我們最近在關注海嘯的問題我想委員應該也有在媒體上看到所以沿海所有的設施的主管機關應該要針對海嘯來對這個部分去做一些準備跟防護"},{"start":153.474,"end":179.046,"text":"那雖然海嘯目前在災防法的主管機關是由內政部來做主導但是內政部在海邊的設施大概只有警消的部分的設施那牽涉到漁港牽涉到海巡牽涉到其他單位這可能就要來通力合作好那我完全了解啦也藉著這個次長你現在的回答讓更多人可以理解說我們光是一個氣象站這樣子的一個維運"},{"start":180.166,"end":193.915,"text":"其實就牽涉到了非常多的面向那我是認為從我現在能夠得到的資料來看的話其實我們目前對他的維護主要是還是在這個資訊的部分多著重於對於這個"},{"start":195.777,"end":202.405,"text":"氣象觀測網的妥善維護多著重於雷達本身和監測資料的品質通訊軟體的暢通這個部分就是您剛剛說的部分那我現在想要強調的部分其實就是我自己在日常的這種會刊經驗當中也可以很清楚"},{"start":214.1,"end":229.553,"text":"氣象站是一件事情嘛這是剛剛我們說的那聯外道路這就是剛剛需要交通的部分也希望可以到時候提出更多的你們怎麼去維護這個部分以至於讓氣象站的被使用率維護不是只有那個站體的本身而是包括整個區域範圍這是一個"},{"start":231.394,"end":247.063,"text":"不過我現在想類似的例子但跳開氣象戰的這個部分我是覺得比如說像我們那個去年山陀兒颱風啦山陀兒颱風其實造成了像新北市的金山地區就損害非常非常的嚴重那我不曉得這個當時在氣象戰的"},{"start":249.204,"end":276.187,"text":"使用資訊上面第一有沒有能夠直接到達該地地區對它的災害市井能夠有更多的提示這是第一個我的問題因為我們金山已經很久沒有淹水了而那一天在最低窪處的老街甚至是超過腰部的淹水而且是商業範圍所以非常的損害嚴重這第一個第二個那地方雖然它快速的復舊了之後其實你去看金山"},{"start":277.168,"end":304.338,"text":"外區外圍地方的連外道路也就是山間的農作道路產業道路等等其實到現在是還沒有修復完成我知道國土署這邊也有盡力去修復了但事實上還沒有完成所以對於大家的產業其實危害也很大這部分就是我剛剛一開始提的跨部會的部分那不曉得你們這邊對於時程對這個案件有瞭解嗎對於時程有掌握嗎還沒有可以更快更精進的做法"},{"start":305.577,"end":326.924,"text":"因為金山當時的那個灘災我也有跟委員一起到現場那當天我們可以看得到就是說因為颱風過境之後它的那個氣象條件忽然變得很惡劣所以這個資訊我們是有透過應變中心的系統傳達到因為你剛剛講的其實是蠻好的就是說我們系統都很好可是事實上大概就是來不及啊"},{"start":327.744,"end":355.643,"text":"因為這個氣象的變化他很快那我們當時傳達到新北市的災因變中心他們也了解到有這樣的一個情形那到區公所的時候呢因為這個氣象條件的變化區公所他的因應能力是有限的所以當時在降雨的這個過程裡面區公所其實最主要他要通知民眾就是說在撤離的部分在這個疏散的部分那其他有關於比如說財務的部分你們就沒有辦法"},{"start":357.584,"end":380.442,"text":"因為跟委報 災後的部分也牽涉到包括經濟部在水利單位的一個復舊還有就是我們在道路的部分還包括農業部跟我們國土署所以它是一個跨部會的工作那目前 那也是災害的復舊的部分期前的這個災害防治的部分是內政部可以統籌嘛跨部會 但內政部統籌那防舊的部分呢 防治的 不是防治就是後面復舊的部分呢"},{"start":384.646,"end":402.364,"text":"復舊部分目前我們在行政院是交給公共工程委員會去做災後重建的總體的一個統籌的工作那內政部我們是對特定的災害類別我們有做災害類別的整個災害防救業務計畫的一個統籌那法令是我們主管所以分工上是有這樣的一個架構"},{"start":402.884,"end":422.024,"text":"所以我也是覺得今天雖然我們是在討論法律的建構啦但是我個人比較在意的還是怎麼把事情做出來不管是事前的防治還是事後的復舊的部分那這中間牽涉到真的是太多跨部會的部分我希望在討論的時候呢其實這個內政部可以把實務的案件就像我們今天這樣討論出來你剛剛其實點到了一個點喔我們就是"},{"start":425.187,"end":446.875,"text":"區公所的能力可能略嫌不足我們現在不是要苛責區公所反而是那以內政部這樣子的體系下去你有沒有能夠再賦權給區公所更多的量能去協助處理才可以下一次災害發生的時候你不用講出這句話嘛啊我什麼什麼都通知了但也許區公所量能不足那我覺得這個就是一個很可以改進的地方嘛"},{"start":447.472,"end":476.522,"text":"市長區公所目前在消防署我們有一個專案的計畫在協助區公所建立防災協作中心那也協助區公所在強化他們在志工這方面的工作那事實上過去我們是既有計畫還是新增計畫是既有計畫所以預算不會受到影響預算目前應該是應該是沒有對應該是沒有預算是因為他是既有的如果我要再加重更多的新技能也許就會受到影響了"},{"start":477.837,"end":483.068,"text":"對 如果是要訓練的話可能預算的部分就要去做追加好吧 那我就問到這裡了話就說到這裡"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":179,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時13分）謝謝主席。不好意思，我們請馬次長。"],["主席：好，請馬次長。"],["馬次長士元：委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：次長好。我們今天要處理的是災害防救法，我是認為其實法令再怎麼完備，它還是有非常多的執行細節需要來討論。比如我自己，我們在新北市當中，其實就有很多地方設有勘測災害的這種雷達，像我們上次有去看就是五分山的雷達站，光是一個雷達站，你需要考慮到的就有氣象的部分，還有其他種種的資訊，甚至是連去這個地方的交通等等都需要討論。我想知道在法令之外，你能不能夠借用這個備詢的時間，告訴我們法令如何來整備跨部會的協助？又或者在法令之餘，你們已經又做了什麼樣的精進作為，讓我們可以更知道其實現在政府對於災害防救已經做到什麼樣的程度？"],["馬次長士元：好，謝謝委員。因為我們現在的災防法架構是把災害類別分給部會，但是有很多災害必須是由目的事業主管機關來合作……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒錯，這就是我現在想要知道的跨部會。"],["馬次長士元：比如剛剛委員提到的氣象站，氣象站是由交通部負責，再把氣象資訊分享到各個部會，尤其是經濟部有關於降雨、水利的部分，還有交通部有關於公路通阻的部分。事實上，在平時我們有建構EMIC資訊系統進行情資分享，如果是在應變中心開設的期間，各部會同仁都會到應變中心報告，所以目前這個部分的資訊分享，跟委員報告，我們在國際上算是很有效率的，而且執行所謂的災害情資分享上也很有成果。現在比較需要強化的部分，主要是在目的事業主管機關對於特定災害的防護，這部分必須要再做大幅度的精進，比如最近大家關注的海嘯問題，我想委員應該也有在媒體上看到，所以沿海所有設施的主管機關，就應該針對海嘯的部分做一些準備跟防護，雖然海嘯目前在災防法的主管機關是由內政部主導，但是內政部在海邊的設施大概只有警消的設施，牽涉到漁港、牽涉到海巡、牽涉到其他單位，可能就要通力合作。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，我完全了解，也藉著次長現在的回答，讓更多人理解光是一個氣象站的維運，其實就牽涉到非常多的面向。從我現在能夠得到的資料看來，目前我們對它的維護主要還是在資訊部分，多著重於氣象觀測網的妥善維護、多著重於雷達本身和監測資料的品質、通訊軟體的暢通，這就是您剛剛說的部分。但我現在想要強調的是，我自己在日常的會勘經驗當中可以很清楚知道，氣象站是一件事情，就誠如我們剛剛說的，而聯外道路，就是剛剛提到交通的部分，也希望到時候你們可以提出更多你們怎麼維護的部分，以至於讓氣象站的被使用率、維護，不是只有那個站體本身，而是包括整個區域範圍，這是一個。","不過我現在想到一個類似的例子，但跳開氣象站的部分，像去年山陀兒颱風造成新北市金山地區損害非常非常嚴重，我不曉得當時氣象站在資訊上的使用，第一，有沒有直接到達該地區，對它的災害示警有更多的提示？這是第一個我的問題。因為我們金山已經很久沒有淹水了，而那一天在最低窪處的老街淹水甚至超過腰部，而且是商業範圍，所以損害非常嚴重，這是第一個。第二個，那個地方雖然快速復舊之後，其實你去看金山外區、外圍地方的聯外道路，也就是鄉間農作道路、產業道路等等，其實到現在是還沒有修復完成。我知道國土署也盡力在修復，但事實上還沒有完成，所以對大家的產業危害也很大，這部分就是我剛剛一開始提到的跨部會的部分，不曉得你們這邊對於這個案件有了解嗎？時程上有掌握嗎？還有沒有更快、更精進的作法？"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，金山當時的勘災，我也有跟委員一起到現場，當天我們看到在颱風過境之後，它的氣象條件忽然變得很惡劣……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！"],["馬次長士元：這個資訊我們是有透過應變中心的系統傳達到新北市……"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為你剛剛講的其實是蠻好的，就是我們的系統都很好，可是事實上大家就是來不及啊！"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，氣象的變化很快，我們當時傳達到新北市的災害應變中心，他們也了解到有這樣的情形，但到區公所的時候，因為氣象條件的變化，而區公所的因應能力是有限的，所以當時在降雨的過程中，區公所其實最主要是要通知民眾，就是在撤離、疏散的部分，其他有關於損失……"],["蘇委員巧慧：財物的部分……"],["馬次長士元：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你們就沒有辦法注意到這個部分了。"],["馬次長士元：跟委員報告，災後的部分也牽涉到包括經濟部在水利單位的復舊，還有道路的部分，包括了農業部、國土署，所以它是一個跨部會的工作，目前……"],["蘇委員巧慧：災害復舊的部分，期前的災害防治是內政部可以統籌的，是跨部會，但內政部統籌，至於後面復舊的部分呢？"],["馬次長士元：復舊的部分，目前行政院是交給公共工程委員會去做災後重建的總體統籌工作，內政部則是針對特定的災害類別，做災害類別的整個災害防救業務計畫的統籌，而法令是我們主管，在分工上是有這樣的一個架構。"],["蘇委員巧慧：今天我們雖然是在討論法律的建構，但是我個人比較在意的還是怎樣把事情做出來，不管是事前防治，還是事後復舊部分，這中間真的牽涉到太多跨部會的工作，希望在討論的時候，內政部可以就實務案件來討論，就像今天這樣。你剛剛其實有提到一個點，就是區公所的能力可能略嫌不足，我們現在不是要苛責區公所，反而是以內政部這樣的體系下去，你能不能夠再賦權給區公所更多的量能去協助處理？這樣在下一次災害發生的時候，你才可以不用講出這句話：啊！我什麼什麼都通知了，但也許區公所量能不足。我覺得這就是一個很可以改進的地方。"],["馬次長士元：是，跟委員報告，區公所目前在消防署有一個專案計畫，協助區公所建立防災協作中心，也協助區公所強化志工這方面的工作，事實上，過去我們……"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是既有計畫，還是新增計畫？"],["馬次長士元：是既有計畫……"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以預算不會受到影響？"],["馬次長士元：預算目前應該是沒有，對，應該是沒有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：因為它是既有的，如果我要再加重更多的新技能，也許就會受到影響了。"],["馬次長士元：對，如果是要訓練的話，可能預算的部分就要追加。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好吧！我就問到這裡，話就說到這裡。"],["馬次長士元：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-15-4","speakers":["張宏陸","丁學忠","張智倫","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","李柏毅","王美惠","黃建賓","許宇甄","楊瓊瓔","吳琪銘","黃捷","徐欣瑩","高金素梅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期內政委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「災害防救法第三條及第十九條條文修正草案」案；二、審查委\n員謝衣鳯等17人擬具「災害防救法第三條條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員謝衣鳯等16人擬具\n「災害防救法第四十八條條文修正草案」案；四、審查委員丁學忠等16人擬具「災害防救法第二\n十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1142901_00001"}}},{"id":"159352","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159352","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b844a8ae905b75d1666ce92bacf16b99bf9ba850061ce775092e4e34333fe8e0c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"10:53:25 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主席有請顧部長有請部長"},{"start":9.751,"end":23.781,"text":"是 林委員好好 部長好部長 我想要針對我昨天在總質詢的時候問到的有關於紅色供應鏈 去紅色供應鏈這個部分因為我想前面很多委員都已經質詢到了有關於就是我們這2025年的國防的四期的國防總檢討當中那麼對比2021年我們可以看到是台美的國際合作跟交流尤其在軍事上面其實已經是越來越明顯"},{"start":37.711,"end":63.245,"text":"那麼在軍事交流合作的部分它除了是有專節納入之外包括這當中也特別提到了軍事的融資還有就是總統提用權的部分我想美國政府對於台灣的這個軍事的合作已經展現得非常的明白但是怎麼樣能夠去紅色供應鏈這個部分本席還是有一些存疑的因為以本席所關注到的就是說現在很多的廠商"},{"start":64.226,"end":80.353,"text":"它是不是被列入所謂的紅色供應鏈或紅色廠商這個部分它其實是有一些可以鑽的巧門比如說它是來自於中國或者是中國內部旗下黨政軍所經營的"},{"start":83.134,"end":103.303,"text":"孫公司甚至於是曾孫公司他到境外比如說新加坡之外現在更可能的包括像美國或其他地方他來設立一個公司之後然後在台灣再來設立子公司或相對的方法我想這些手法跟巧門因為部長過去的資金力我想您一定很了解"},{"start":103.823,"end":117.372,"text":"但是我要提到的是在我們做採購的過程中或合作的過程當中現在政府內部到底有沒有這樣的一個SOP或是有這樣的組織比如說昨天像經濟部他會針對投審會去看這個公司是不是所謂有中資可是通常我們第一時間我們不會真的去採購的時候特別去問經濟部除非有一些疑惑的時候"},{"start":130.66,"end":137.63,"text":"那麼如果是這樣在已經名列入在所謂的接軌供應鏈安全體系當中要去紅色供應鏈的時候到底有沒有一個跨部會廠商的查核系統而這個系統該如何建置有沒有一個想法跟方向"},{"start":149.802,"end":176.076,"text":"我想大概要分兩個部分一個是我們採購的貨品本身嘛那這個要去紅那另外一個就是說來投標的廠商要去紅大概是這兩塊的部分是那就這兩塊的部分這個我們採購的貨品的部分呢我們現在跟採購是多次的討論之後我們現在大致上有一個全排性的一套這個"},{"start":177.977,"end":203.571,"text":"禁用這個大陸地區香港澳門產品的認證跟旅業驗收的作業指導的一個要點那這個要點我們現在就是按照這個要點要去跟這個所有這個會辦理採購業務的人來做一個宣講那就這個部分會涉及到說從一開始的規範然後到後面的驗收要如何進行驗收"},{"start":204.871,"end":216.434,"text":"這個大概都要有一套的一個程序那現在委員剛剛提到的另外一塊更麻煩的當然就是這個廠商的這個部分我想就是採購要點在那裡但是我相信我們的相關的這個國軍的單位絕對不會蓄意去都是事後被發現只好用這個要點去解約但是前期的預防就是部長你現在回應的有沒有可能有機會預防或者用什麼方式"},{"start":232.739,"end":256.326,"text":"可以有機會跨部會的先做查詢應該是說這個問題要從這個他本身這個股東的這個結構面上面來看那如果按照我過去在國安會的經驗就是說當這個股東的這個結構他上層的結構"},{"start":261.033,"end":284.48,"text":"可能是這些什麼VBI公司或者是這些其他國外的這個公司那這個的時候呢可能就要稍微要注意去看就是說它在上一層它是長什麼樣子那這個部分呢有些時候呢就據我們的國內以前是投審會現在應該是失了吧"},{"start":288.064,"end":312.94,"text":"他要做一個要去跟他們去做一個相關的一個諮詢那就這一塊的部分我必須承認他有些有難度譬如說BBI公司BBI公司他就不容易去清查這個部分所以這個部分還要透過一些相關的國安機制他們要協同去進行調查"},{"start":313.28,"end":341.626,"text":"好 我會提出這個質詢就是也是提醒國防部跟其他的跨部會在處理有時候去紅色供應鏈的時候恐怕不能只有國防部就像部長所說的還是需要其他國安單位的協助尤其是我們在做軍事採購的部分我相信國防部也會特別的仔細那當然我也希望是有一個跨部會的機制能夠來做一個協助啦因為這個確實不是那麼容易都比較容易是亡羊補牢或是事後才發現或是有人舉發這個部分 對"},{"start":343.126,"end":359.696,"text":"那另外一個其實本席要關注的問題就是剛剛呢有委員其實就特別審好幾個委員都提到了有關於我們現在軍事審判制度的部分甚至於有委員在質詢的時候也把這個名嘴的這個網路的"},{"start":362.578,"end":374.582,"text":"節目都放上來了那麼我想這個大概就是大家需要在社會上還做進一步釐清的就是當然委員他自己擔心的是他不是軍人那麼他會不會就成為這個軍事審判的對象剛剛部長也講得很清楚啦就是說如果不是軍人就不會是但是如果是一般的民眾涉入了相關的事件當中那麼透過軍人然後達到洩密的時候那像這樣的案件該如何處理"},{"start":391.545,"end":396.936,"text":"如果是現役軍人犯這個實務上的犯罪的話那就屬於受軍事審判了"},{"start":397.867,"end":424.253,"text":"但是如果說一般的民眾他在參與案件期間他會變如果在這個案件當中他是其中但他不是現役軍人必須要現役軍人的時候犯罪好那言下之意這已經講得非常清楚了就是說這個軍事審判即使這個制度重啟因為他是要職務上犯罪所以他一定是現役軍人他有可能職務上犯罪他不是現役軍人邏輯上是不可能犯我們講的所謂的軍事犯"},{"start":424.753,"end":431.675,"text":"好 所以說這個也是非常的清楚包括就是只要你不是現役軍人就不會納入這個軍事審判的制度但是根據本席所找的這些媒體的報導大概我們一年當中大概有300多件的相關的這個所謂軍事審判的案件就是軍人涉入的案件"},{"start":445.12,"end":449.501,"text":"那麼以我去年4月的時候曾經就質詢過了那就是我們根據這個陸海空軍懲戒法跟軍人權益的處理辦法我們有曾經招募過國防法務官28名那麼如果加總起來所現有的包括我們的將官上位62名中校的54名衛官是7名再加書記官等等"},{"start":470.405,"end":482.795,"text":"在面對現在現有的軍事法官的數量來得及或者是說能夠應付現有的三百多件的案件嗎那麼在這個部分的準備因為其實當時我在質詢的時候就有特別提到那我那時候只是在想說我們在招募這個所謂國防法務官的過程當中其實"},{"start":492.183,"end":514.113,"text":"如果對比這個一般的律師的考試當時是剛好兩者是撞齊的嘛所以我就覺得說那這兩者之間會不會我們招募上面會有一些所謂誘因不夠或者是風險不夠但現在看得出來其實應該是是不是事前就已經要做這個準備但是目前到底我們的軍法官數量夠不夠陰影"},{"start":516.267,"end":536.542,"text":"跟委員報告,剛好因為現在陸海公軍懲罰法,那個軍人權益事件處理法通過,那已經今年七月要實施那所以地方軍事法院要成立全保會,來負責處理這個再申訴跟附審的案件那麼另外高等軍事法院要處理這個行政訴訟的這個部分"},{"start":538.403,"end":565.679,"text":"那所以這個部分這個應該開始就剛好有一部分的能量來進行一個練兵尤其特別是行政訴訟部分那現在又要跨到這一個軍事審判這個部分來那這分三點跟委員說明第一點他三百件裡面到底是哪些犯軍事職務上的犯罪這個我們要跟受案員查明因為有可能是犯一般的刑事犯罪這是第一點第二點我們以後軍法官的這個部分要確保他的獨立性"},{"start":566.119,"end":591.914,"text":"所以我們剛剛才會提到這些相關的組織法或者是人事條例那第三個就是我們可能會有一個多元選材的管道就是說我們的來源有可能是透過考試有可能透過這個他本身是律師那我們經過甄選那也有可能是國安法務官也經過甄選但是這個部分我們為了確保甄選的公平我們應該會請納入外部的人員來成立這個人事審議委員會"},{"start":593.475,"end":613.544,"text":"來進行一個多元的選裁那確保這個軍法官的品質這樣子好 所以我想本席提出這樣質詢也是認為說這個不能真的只有所謂戰時尤其是現在平時戰時也進入一個灰色地帶那麼提早來做這些包括相關的軍法官的這個所謂人才的培育或者是充實是相當重要的謝謝這個部長的回覆 謝謝好 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對不對"},{"start":118.444,"end":144.311,"text":"那個所以其實我們很多外籍漁工其實非常辛苦的啦那當然怎麼樣讓大家的這個相關的規定能夠跟現場的狀況然後工作現場的狀況能夠來去做互相的協調所以每個船長都被划到都快要受不了啦好在有反應然後一直積極的老東部這邊後來也跟那個那個約署"},{"start":145.952,"end":173.054,"text":"這是順義民情我覺得這個是非常非常棒的所以要跟你們加油謝謝蘇貞好那再來講講比較這個巴斯亞表我們通過了兩三個月了那你現在你到底是要再怎麼做你上次有跟我解釋嘛你再解釋一下讓我們大家了解好跟蘇貞還有其實很多關心的朋友說明"},{"start":174.815,"end":199.829,"text":"因為這個是立法院三讀通過的法律修正案當然我們就會來執行那現在勞動部現在在做的事情是必須全力的來規劃配套那這個配套裡面最重要的事情是怎麼樣保障重症家庭的權利因為其實現在我們已經在很多地方聽聞到有些重症家庭他們的這個聘僱的看護移工其實已經有一點想要這個"},{"start":201.07,"end":224.343,"text":"之前所謂說棄重則輕的狀況其實已經陸陸續續會出現所以我們要怎麼保護中正家庭權益所以我們目前其實會設計一個雙軌的程序這個雙軌的程序讓中正家庭可以在這裡面得到比較多的協助跟比較多的方便那因為這個程序的重新設計所以它會深設到其實會需要蠻多增加的人力"},{"start":225.143,"end":240.082,"text":"那這個人力從經費的尋找到招募甚至人力還需要訓練這都需要一些時間 需要幾個月的時間那也包括我們其實也要到這個移工的萊爾姆國來跟他們討論能不能夠增加引進的數量"},{"start":241.283,"end":268.553,"text":"那這個數量的增加那才比較能夠去因應現在可能市場大幅會很快速會增加的這樣的需求避免更大程度的市場供需的失衡所以這整體來說我們都在很審慎而且很積極的作業之中而且跟衛福部也持續的開會討論共同研商那我們評估下來這些工作算起來可能真的還是要個半年六個月"},{"start":269.193,"end":284.234,"text":"那這真的不是我們刻意去做什麼行政怠惰 行政杯葛 都不是我們是要付 某個部分我們是要負起降低衝擊的責任不然如果貿然的沒有把配套做好 狀況開放真的會對中正家庭產生很多的衝擊"},{"start":284.955,"end":312.267,"text":"好 這個部長說的就是我們兩個重點第一個重點就是這個外籍康復制裁他有大時間後他就可以申請他要轉僱主了嘛所以他會對這個當政的重症的他不喜歡招呼他去他要轉換僱主這個是人性啦這是第一個考量第二個考量就是真的外籍康復康復工如果比較素質比較好一點的韓國日本搶著要"},{"start":313.348,"end":325.842,"text":"我們能不能搶得到我們的薪資比他們低老實講還是比較偏低所以這兩個考量那你要做好的配套這個我可以接受那再來你跟我說兩分鐘"},{"start":329.2,"end":343.95,"text":"這個是外籍遺失聯的剛剛盧憲宇委員在講的事情我要跟他follow一下因為外籍的移工勞工第一批要去接到我們的原住民的工作機會"},{"start":345.219,"end":370.221,"text":"那我講一個事實給你看因為原住民這邊我常常在跑屏東那邊就非常熟跟那邊也很綿密每天早上五點多就會看到泰伍啦 春日啦 萊義啦就一個班長然後開一步想要吃 店館在才會有六個七個 八個就下去到北地 還是去到高雄市去做工地 做鐵工"},{"start":373.383,"end":395.731,"text":"那我這邊要我很感謝常說一萬多個人的工作機會會被外國勞工搶走我倒是建議勞動部這邊要加強要去執訓的最當然你要把那個我們原住民的朋友因為都分享體狀的你要讓他的技術水平往上拉你也讓他去騎車你要教他拔車你要讓他騎摩托車你要叫他點摩托車"},{"start":401.109,"end":414.352,"text":"你騎車一天的薪水差不多一千六千八如果電磨棒的都兩千五二千六、兩千八馬上可以增加而且讓它技術水平往上拉你給它砌磚你給它做頭緒一天三千幾塊你給它調整什麼沒意思嘛那個是"},{"start":423.173,"end":447.306,"text":"外籍的勞工進來我在台數六、七還看到外籍的移工連在焊接他們也接受好的訓練之後焊接他們的管線不銹鋼的管線那一天三千幾個所以你要把原住民這裡如果有人說話我頭先保溫後面保溫你一定要自己提升"},{"start":448.536,"end":476.03,"text":"這第二組啦跟文說明確實現在我們看到在整體的產業討論缺工的狀況裡面最缺的就是這些技術工沒錯那這些技術工所以不管是對我想也不只對原住民但對原住民朋友我們其實可以特別怎麼樣子來協助大家做這些職業訓練讓大家在這個技術工的缺乏的狀況之下有機會可以有更好的工作的機會包括更多的收入我想這當然都是我想勞工部很樂意"},{"start":478.071,"end":497.338,"text":"這個要加強一定要more attention在這一塊因為我們原住民很多朋友都當軍警我在大五雲區看到跳傘的大五雲區那整個裡面的幹部不管是軍官士官士兵原住民的朋友佔了56%還是一樣啊"},{"start":500.319,"end":514.805,"text":"所以我覺得我們骨幹都在這裡所以再來就是他們勞力這一塊階級的你一定要幫他訓練讓他們拉高他的資助水平 增加他的收入這個很重要那時間到了喔"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":790,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時54分）謝謝主席、謝謝召委，我請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長辛苦了。"],["洪部長申翰：不會。"],["蘇委員清泉：我看你接任到現在都是靠藥物，沒有嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：靠什麼？"],["蘇委員清泉：靠藥物在撐，沒有嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：沒有。"],["蘇委員清泉：都靠腎上腺素。","我要感謝你，關於東港還有我們南部海邊漁船上的漁工，不管是近海的、不管是遠洋的，以前他們漁工到岸上來整理一些漁貨就被抓，後來在我、勞動部還有漁業署的努力之下終於可以看到，漁船泊港的時候協助卸貨、整理漁貨、整理漁具、補給所需的都可以接受、可以做。你知道這件事情有多嚴重嗎？魚抓到岸上，本來那些漁工站在船上看臺灣人或是老船長、老夫婦在那邊整理魚，那些漁工就站在船上看，「徛懸山，看馬相踢」，看他在那邊做到死，然後他們站在那邊看，因為他們上岸就被抓，說不可以殺魚等等的。我跟部長報告，那些魚都死了、都凍起來了，那不是殺生，活的可以叫做殺生、殺魚，但死的就是整理漁貨而已，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：蘇委員，其實我們很多外籍漁工也是非常辛苦，當然怎麼樣讓相關的規定能夠跟工作現場的狀況能夠互相的協調……"],["蘇委員清泉：所以每個船長都被罰到快要受不了了，好在有反映，然後一直很積極的，勞動部後來也跟漁業署順應民情，我覺得這個是非常棒的，所以要給你們加油，不要常常胡亂罵你啦！","再來，巴氏量表我們通過了兩、三個月，現在你到底要再怎麼做？你上次有跟我解釋，你再解釋一下，讓我們大家了解。"],["洪部長申翰：好，跟蘇委員還有很多關心的朋友說明，因為這個是立法院三讀通過的法律修正案，當然我們就會來執行，勞動部現在在做的事情是必須全力來規劃配套，這個配套裡面最重要的事情是怎麼樣保障重症家庭的權利，因為現在我們已經在很多地方聽聞到有些重症家庭聘僱的看護移工有一點想要……之前所謂棄重擇輕的狀況其實已經陸陸續續出現，因此我們要怎麼保護重症家的庭權益？我們目前會設計一個雙軌的程序，這個雙軌的程序讓重症家庭可以在這裡面得到比較多的協助跟比較多的方便。因為這個程序的重新設計，所以這會牽涉到需要增加滿多的人力，這個人力從經費的尋找到招募，甚至人力還需要訓練，這都需要一些時間、需要幾個月的時間。另外包括我們也要到移工來源母國，跟他們討論能不能夠增加引進的數量，這個數量的增加才比較能夠因應未來市場可能會很大幅、快速增加的需求，避免更大程度的市場供需失衡。","所以這整體來說，我們都在很審慎而且很積極的作業之中，而且跟衛福部也持續的開會討論、共同研商。我們評估下來，這些工作算起來可能真的還是要個半年、六個月，這真的不是我們刻意行政怠惰、行政杯葛，都不是！某部分我們要負起降低衝擊的責任，否則如果貿然在沒有把配套做好的狀況下開放，真的會對重症家庭產生很多衝擊。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長說的有兩個重點，第一個重點，外籍看護進來有一段時間之後就可以申請轉雇主，所以他會因為不喜歡照顧重症的而要轉換雇主，這是第一個考量。"],["洪部長申翰：這是人性啦。"],["蘇委員清泉：第二個考量就是外籍看護工如果素質比較好一點的，韓國、日本搶著要。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們能不能搶得到？我們的薪資……"],["洪部長申翰：比他們低。"],["蘇委員清泉：老實講還是比較偏低啦！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以這兩個考量，你要做好的配套，這個我可以接受。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：再來，這個是有關失聯的外籍移工，剛剛盧縣一委員在講的事情我要follow一下，因為外籍勞工進來會去占到我們原住民的工作機會。我講一個事實給你看，因為原住民這邊我常常在跑，跟屏東那邊非常熟，跟他們很綿密，每天早上5點多就會看到泰武、春日、來義，就一個班長開一部箱型車，上面載差不多六、七、八個就下去到平地，還是去高雄市工地做鐵工。我很感謝，他說一萬多個人的工作機會被外國勞工搶走，我倒是建議勞動部這邊要加強職訓這方面，因為我們原住民的朋友都是身強體壯的，你要把他的技術水平往上拉，你不要讓他去那邊搬鋼筋，你要教他固定鋼筋、你要讓他拿模板、你要叫他釘模板，搬鋼筋一天的薪水差不多1,600、1,800元；如果是釘模板大約是2,600、2,800元，薪水馬上可以增加，而且讓他的技術水平往上拉。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：如果你讓他去砌磚、你讓他做泥作，一天三千多塊，你叫他吊磚塊沒意思嘛！外籍勞工進來，我在台塑六輕還看到外籍移工在焊接，他們接受好的訓練之後焊接不鏽鋼的管線，一天三千多塊。所以你要把這些原住民像盧委員說的，前面部分、後面的部分，你一定要幫他們提升，這你要做啦！"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，確實現在我們看到在整體產業討論缺工的狀況裡面，最缺的就是這些技術工。"],["蘇委員清泉：沒錯。"],["洪部長申翰：這些技術工，我想也不只對原住民，但對原住民朋友，我們可以特別怎麼樣來協助大家做這些職業訓練，讓大家在這個技術工缺乏的狀況之下，可以有更好的工作機會包括更多的收入，我想勞動部很樂意來積極推動。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個要加強，一定要more attention在這一塊。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為我們原住民很多朋友都當軍警，我看到跳傘的大武營區，整個裡面的幹部不管是軍官、士官、士兵，原住民的朋友占56%，嚇死人了，所以我覺得骨幹都在這裡，再來就是勞力這一塊階級的，你一定要訓練他們，拉高他們的技術水平、增加他的收入，這個很重要。時間到了嗎？"],["主席：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：改天再問你啦！"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇召委、謝謝部長。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時3分）","繼續開會（11時16分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接下來請黃秀芳委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案 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其實同樣的很多人也很關心這個國定假日調整的部分我們期待就是在這個研議的過程裡面是針對這些休假制度的調整是對勞工最有利的方向來演繹那這部分再麻煩部長持續來多關注跟了解謝謝這是有關於第一部分"},{"start":193.596,"end":214.759,"text":"那再過來就是財務法通過以後其實對勞保財務相對應該是受到蠻大的影響包括這個中央可能會少的3700億可以運用的部分會影響到這個勞保的撥補那如何來應用這樣的困難我們也知道目前這個勞保撥補還不是法定的義務支出"},{"start":215.399,"end":242.568,"text":"所以目前也不希望說透過修法去調降企務那未來有沒有考慮勞保撥補能夠入法把它變成一個法定義務支出我想其實現在在財化法的這樣子之下如果這個這樣子修訂後的財化法真的我說如果如果他真的上路執行確實中央整體的財源會有很大的限制跟限縮那勞保的"},{"start":244.379,"end":258.866,"text":"撥補確實現在不是法定義務支出但是我想政府會一直是秉持著我們會負最終支付責任的政策的目前的政策的態度就是這樣只是確實現在會對於說因為像去年我們是撥了今年114年是撥了1300億"},{"start":262.828,"end":289.5,"text":"那包括疫後的部分是1300億整體是1300億可是在財務法如果真的上路執行後還能不能維持這樣的水位這個是我們會比較擔心的事情是好那我們就麻煩部長持續再往這邊對至少這個勞工但至少政策的態度上面還是會是政府政府是在是會負最後的責任態度上面政策上面現在就是這樣是對可是我們確實會會有財務法通過後的擔心"},{"start":292.301,"end":311.676,"text":"好那再過來就是有關護理人力的缺失大家都很期待趕快有好的一些人力可以來進行這個補充包括這個中階附著的人力的運用將來能不能夠盡速而落實那我也了解部長現在在跟歐湖部部長那邊已經有一些"},{"start":312.336,"end":330.341,"text":"研擬的措施我們也期待能夠讓了解這個措施在未來執行的時候可以更便利因為這個會牽扯到未來開放80歲以上免糧表的部分如何能夠棄重責輕讓有需要照顧的這些長者他真的能夠得到好的照顧"},{"start":331.041,"end":341.752,"text":"那如果還可以的話那就不一定要使用到這些我們的外勞的人力等等這個部分就麻煩部長這邊持續跟衛福部這邊來做一些持續的研議這是請部長來處理的"},{"start":346.55,"end":365.182,"text":"那最後其實還有一點點時間也了解針對於這個就業安定基金的合理運用今天很多很多委員都非常的關心那如何有效管理其實大家最期待的那部長上任以後也面對這樣的困境做了非常多的努力"},{"start":365.822,"end":383.136,"text":"那也期待這個就業安定基金的合理運用跟有效管理是可以讓國人能夠信賴而且是可以來支持的那這部分可不可以請部長再利用一點點時間來做更完整或進一步的說明關於就業安定基金我想未來的部分"},{"start":386.338,"end":396.926,"text":"這個我們其實提出了一個精進把關的做法剛才其實很多委員也也也也有來去詢問那所以未來我們當然就會從用途面從管理面從資訊面來去更"},{"start":400.288,"end":415.066,"text":"更有效的來去管理救安基因希望過去發生一些狀況一些爭議不要再發生那第二個是針對過去的部分那現在這個過去現在可能會被指教的一些案例或項目那現在審計部也正在查"},{"start":415.606,"end":441.925,"text":"那剛剛其實也幾個委員有來說這個審計部查狀況最後我們當然會尊重審計部在審計工作裡面的判定那相關的資料在審計部他的結果出來之後但因為這個現在還在審計部的整個專案審計工作裡面那在這個結果出來之後我們當然也願意把我們的一些相關的回覆那"},{"start":443.297,"end":469.967,"text":"如果需要提供的話再提供好那這個部分我相信部長如果透過審計部最後提供給我們了解或更多相關的這些運用的話我想國人就會更因為現在還在審計部的這個專案審計的過程裡面那對於資訊公開我們就覺得很多資訊是可以公開可是最後審議部的這個報告結果出來之後那該提供給大家去了解的我想我們的態度是開放的"},{"start":473.168,"end":475.858,"text":"好那就請部長跟所有同仁繼續努力好謝謝謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":770,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時46分）非常感謝主席讓我有機會利用時間再接續來請教部長，也謝謝蘇召委給我這個機會。我們就請部長，主席，我可以請部長來備詢嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。今天我就針對強化育兒及老人照護的部分來就教部長，我想早上部長已經把部裡面的很多業務都做了非常充分的說明，我們就開始針對彈性育嬰假部分來討論，有關試辦結果部長在3月3號也做了說明，結果不如預期，主要原因是因為大家其實更期待的是有關於更彈性的部分，希望能夠更方便地運用。另外，針對留職停薪，又擔心行政程序太匆忙，無法完成，這些缺失我相信大家一開始其實也都了解，所以如果有機會再試辦的話，能不能根據這些問題做一些建議？包括我們所看到的，把產假、陪產假等等這些當作生產準備假來做調控。另外，如果婦女在一定週數以上流產的話，其實他的心情已經非常不好，能不能也把他納為保障範圍？另外，也可以提供更有彈性的育嬰假，在這個過程裡面也同時檢討有薪彈性育嬰假補助的可能性，以上是我們期待如果再試辦下一波的話能夠來處理的部分。當然我們也希望擴大試辦的範圍，包括能不能夠考慮接受政府獎補助或是抵減稅的這些企業都能夠來參加，請部長說明。"],["洪部長申翰：關於照顧不離職的議題，其實很多委員都非常關心，我們也在去年的試辦經驗之下做出檢討，確實現在整個檢討的方向就是希望能夠在相關的，包括對於請假、留停等等的制度上面怎麼樣更大地提高彈性，讓這些相關的制度對於需要的人，可能不只是婦女，有些部分先生也會用到，就是能夠讓夫妻雙方都覺得這個制度更好用，讓普及率可以更高，這部分是我們現在的方向。這個方向就是希望能夠去兼顧，讓我們的勞工朋友不用因為要照顧家庭、照顧小朋友而必須要離開職場，這對於我們的勞動力缺乏也不是好事。"],["王委員正旭：是，其實同樣地，很多委員很關心國定假日調整的部分，我們期待在研議的過程裡面，針對這些休假制度的調整要朝對勞工最有利的方向來研議，這部分再麻煩部長持續來多關注及了解，謝謝。這是有關於第一部分。","再過來就是財劃法通過以後，勞保財務應該受到滿大的影響，中央少了3,700億可以運用的部分可能會影響到勞保的撥補，要如何因應這樣的困難？我們也知道目前勞保撥補還不是法定的義務支出，但是現階段也不希望透過修法去調降給付，未來有沒有考慮勞保撥補能夠入法、把它變成一個法定義務支出？"],["洪部長申翰：其實目前在財劃法這樣子的狀況之下，如果這樣子修訂後的財劃法真的上路執行，確實中央整體財源會有很大的限制跟限縮，勞保的撥補確實現在不是法定義務支出，但是我想政府會一直秉持著我們會負最終支付責任，目前的政策態度就是這樣，像今年114年撥了1,300億，包括疫後的部分是1,300億，整體是1,300億，可是財劃法如果真的上路執行後還能不能維持這樣的水位，這個是我們會比較擔心的事情。"],["王委員正旭：是，我們就麻煩部長持續再往這邊，至少把這個勞工的保障……"],["洪部長申翰：對，至少政策的態度上面還是會由中央政府負最後的責任，態度上面、政策上面現在就是這樣，可是我們確實會有財劃法通過後的擔心。"],["王委員正旭：好。再過來就是有關護理人力的缺失，大家都很期待趕快有一些好的人力可以進行補充，包括中階護佐的人力運用將來能不能夠儘速落實。我也了解部長現在跟衛福部部長那邊已經有一些研擬措施，我們也期待這個措施未來執行的時候可以讓它更便利，因為這個會牽扯到未來開放八十歲以上免量表的部分如何避免棄重擇輕，讓有需要照顧的這些長者真的能夠得到好的照顧，如果還可以的話就不一定要使用到這些外勞人力等等，這個部分就麻煩部長持續跟衛福部那邊做一些研議，這是要請部長來處理的。","最後還有一點點時間，針對就業安定基金的合理運用今天很多很多委員都非常關心，如何有效管理其實是大家最期待的，部長上任以後面對這樣的困境做了非常多的努力，也期待就業安定基金的合理運用跟有效管理可以讓國人能夠信賴，而且是可以支持的。這部分可不可以請部長再利用一點點時間來做更完整或進一步的說明？"],["洪部長申翰：關於就安基金，未來的部分我們其實提出了一個精進把關的作法。剛剛其實很多委員也有詢問，未來我們就會從用途面、管理面、資訊面更有效地管理就安基金，希望過去發生的一些狀況、一些爭議不要再發生。","第二個是針對過去的部分，關於過去、現在可能會被指教的一些案例或項目，現在審計部也正在查。其實剛剛也有幾個委員提到審計部在查的狀況，最後我們當然會尊重審計部在審計工作裡面的判定，相關資料在審計部的結果出來之後……因為這個現在還在審計部的專案審計工作裡面，在這個結果出來之後，我們當然也願意把我們的一些相關回復……如果需要提供的話再提供。"],["王委員正旭：好，這個部分我相信部長如果透過審計部最後提供給我們了解或更多相關運用的話，我想國人就會更……"],["洪部長申翰：因為現在還在審計部的專案審計過程裡面，對於資訊公開，我們覺得很多資訊可以公開，而在最後審計部的報告結果出來之後，關於該提供給大家了解的，我想我們的態度是開放的。"],["王委員正旭：那就請部長跟所有同仁繼續努力。"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請蘇清泉召委詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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各位有請主委劉主委主委好這個 言明會在提報了這個"},{"start":29.178,"end":58.212,"text":"第三期的四年計劃就是114年到117年原住民族住宅的四年三期計劃當然這個計劃就是過去已經實施延續過去的一個園民會的一個計劃當然更早更早也有更早也有那首先在談這個計劃之前要特別跟主委"},{"start":59.541,"end":84.874,"text":"來瞭解也讓這個現在正為國發會過去是經建會在審查這個大家都知道現在有租屋補助嘛租房子有補助現在是內政部在主管沒錯最早 主委你知道最早是從哪裡開始嗎最早是從延民會開始延租民主委員會開始"},{"start":87.213,"end":111.093,"text":"本席當時擔任這個嚴明會的常務副主任委員當時張俊雄院長要求各部會他一上任之後張俊雄第一次當院長的時候他當兩次吧新任院長第一次一上任的時候就請各部會要提出二到三個對人民有感的政策計畫"},{"start":113.53,"end":138.138,"text":"人民會當初提出來的其中一個就是租屋補住因為我在多位區長期去了解我們原住民很多的多位區的鄉親因為租不起房子買不起房子所以租房子的時候租一個套房父母親孩子都住在一起"},{"start":140.717,"end":165.122,"text":"父母親晚上做看電視小孩子做功課這個一樣只有一個套房啊所以就怎麼樣呢這個小茶几小桌子做功課邊做功課邊看電視對原住民的教育提升非常非常的嚴重的影響所以我就從教育"},{"start":166.363,"end":186.985,"text":"的走眼原住民租房子要補助這個計畫送到經建會當時的政務委員當時的副主委就是之前的張景生政務委員他看到這個計畫他很納悶原住民是怎麼一回事租房子還要補助"},{"start":188.871,"end":212.61,"text":"經過我們詳細的說明之後他同意他聽進去了就批了主委也批了行政院也合併了實施兩三年之後內政部認為行政院認為這應該要擴大辦理所以才由內政部主管一直實施到現在"},{"start":213.615,"end":242.748,"text":"我講這個意思是說原住民的問題不一定跟一般的有關是一樣的但是我們是從各方面的去了解實際的狀況去了解好我們現在談這個四年計畫在談這個四年計畫之前也讓主委了解一下讓我們這個國發會的同仁了解一下我昨天有提了宴會的時候"},{"start":243.837,"end":273.075,"text":"在還沒有原住民族基本法在還沒有住宅法之前民國八十一年台灣省政府興建基隆市的海濱原住民國宅總共一億五千多萬當時的一億五千多萬是很大這個就是基隆的原住民海濱國宅民國八十四年內政部省台北縣"},{"start":275.421,"end":293.387,"text":"共投入兩億一千多萬新建新店的中正年住民住宅然後汐止八十八年這個汐止的總共有 人民會編列了四億九千多萬當然經費就從住宅計畫裡面四億九千多萬這是買的 直接買買民間的集合式住宅"},{"start":304.369,"end":319.669,"text":"是這種的方式這個是最快的最快的好這個就是現在的狀況那延期法在94年2月5號公布施行"},{"start":320.782,"end":349.412,"text":"要測定原住民族住宅政策入會區的安居一定要去重視要有這樣的一個保障跟協助住宅法最重要是住宅法105年12月23號原住民族目的事業主管機關因視原住民族教育及語言文化等傳承發展需要興建興辦專攻原住民成都之社會住宅大家住在一起"},{"start":350.543,"end":370.806,"text":"提升教育提升語言提升文化在都會區會比較能夠有效因為都會區的原住民人口已經達到51.19%了超過一半在如果加上沒有社會戶籍這個是有社會戶籍的"},{"start":371.741,"end":384.26,"text":"加上没有社户籍在多月期就学就业的绝对是超过百分之七十几所以这个人数是相当高那我们看这次的这个"},{"start":386.215,"end":408.335,"text":"報告裡面有提到那個四年計畫裡面有提到原住民族家庭的自由住宅率低於全國平均值新北市差距跟全國差距27.83台北市33.44桃園市是25.26台中市差距是31.73所以差距落差很大"},{"start":410.339,"end":439.075,"text":"在這個計畫的報告裡面的計畫裡面四年計畫裡面也有提到原住民族專屬社會住宅有幾個地方都有 新北 桃園跟台中都有提報但是呢後來結果內政部說沒有經費人民會也說沒有經費所以這個部分當然這個計畫已經核定了但是是從今年開始"},{"start":449.961,"end":464.529,"text":"這個計畫是三年計畫第四年計畫是今年開始所以我是建議主委、國發會讓人民會再一次的修正這個計畫滾動檢討修正這個計畫"},{"start":469.724,"end":496.095,"text":"能夠列入在明年的預算開始能夠有編列這個專屬原住民的社會住宅來解決這個原住民住宅的需求也符合我們住宅法從105年12月公佈施行之後到現在這樣的一個立法的目的主委可以嗎"},{"start":497.652,"end":514.685,"text":"可以喔 我們會後會去反映給原民會那請原民會提案然後到我們這裡來審核的時候我們會協助好 非常謝謝這個主委這個部分因為時間也蠻急迫因為要列入在"},{"start":516.225,"end":530.003,"text":"這個明年的預算的話就是對有點對這個時間上但是因為有過去很多很多的經驗所以應該是可以很快的來去做修正核定就麻煩主委謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":405,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時45分）主席、各位委員。有請主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：鄭委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委好。原民會在提報了第三期的四年計畫，就是114年到117年，原住民族住宅的四年三期計畫，當然這個計畫就是過去已經實施，延續過去原民會的一個計畫，當然更早也有。在談這個計畫之前，要特別跟主委來了解，也讓現在身為國發會，過去是經建會在審查，大家都知道現在有租屋補助嘛！租房子有補助，現在是內政部在主管。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主委，你知道最早是從哪裡開始嗎？最早是從原民會開始，原住民族委員會開始。本席當時擔任原民會的常務副主任委員，張俊雄院長當過兩次行政院長，第一次一上任的時候就請各部會要提出2到3個對人民有感的政策、計畫，原民會當初提出來的其中一個就是租屋補助。因為我長期在都會區，了解我們原住民很多在都會區的鄉親，因為租不起房子、買不起房子，所以租房子的時候只租一個套房，父母親、孩子都住在一起。父母親晚上就看電視，小孩子做功課，只有一個套房，所以就怎麼樣呢？就一個小茶几、小桌子做功課，邊做功課邊看電視，這對原住民教育的提升有非常非常嚴重的影響。所以我就從教育著眼，提出原住民租房子要補助，並把這個計畫送到經建會，當時的副主委就是之前的張景森政務委員，他看到這個計畫，他很納悶，原住民是怎麼一回事？租房子還要補助？經過我們詳細地說明之後，他同意，他聽進去了，就批了，主委也批了，行政院也核定了。實施2、3年之後，內政部、行政院都認為這個應該要擴大辦理，所以才由內政部主管一直實施到現在。我講這個意思是說原住民的問題不一定跟一般的是一樣的，但我們可以從各方面去了解實際的狀況。","好，我們現在談這個四年計畫，我在談四年計畫之前，也讓主委了解一下，讓我們國發會的同仁了解一下。我昨天在院會提過，在還沒有原住民族基本法，在還沒有住宅法之前，即民國81年，臺灣省政府興建基隆市的海濱原住民國宅，總共一億五千多萬。當時的一億五千多萬是很大，這個就是基隆的原住民海濱國宅。民國84年，內政部、省、臺北縣共投入二億一千多萬興建新店的中正原住民住宅；然後汐止，88年總共原民會編列了四億九千多萬，當然經費就是從住宅計畫裡面，四億九千多萬，這是買的，直接買，買民間的集合式住宅，是這種的方式，這個是最快的，這個就是現在的現況。原基法在94年2月5號公布施行，要策訂原住民族住宅政策，都會區的安居一定要去重視，要有這樣的一個保障跟協助。最重要的是住宅法，105年12月23號，原住民族目的事業主管機關應視原住民族教育及語言文化等傳承發展需要，興建、興辦專供原住民承租之社會住宅，大家住在一起，提升教育、提升語言、提升文化。這在都會區會比較能夠有效，因為都會區的原住民人口已經達到51.19%了，超過一半，如果加上沒有設戶籍的，而這個是有設戶籍的，加上沒有設戶籍在都會區就學就業的，絕對是超過百分之七十幾，所以人數相當高。","這次的報告有提到四年計畫，原住民族家庭的自有住宅率低於全國平均值，在新北市跟全國的差距是27.83%，臺北市33.44%，桃園市是25.26%，臺中市差距是31.73%，所以差距落差很大。在四年計畫裡面也有提到原住民族專屬社會住宅，有幾個地方都有，新北、桃園跟臺中都有提報，但是後來內政部說沒有經費，原民會也說沒有經費。雖然計畫已經核定了，但是是從今年開始，這個計畫是四年計畫，是今年開始。所以我建議主委與國發會，讓原民會再一次修正這個計畫，滾動檢討修正這個計畫，並列入明年的預算，開始編列專屬原住民的社會住宅，來解決原住民住宅的需求，也符合住宅法從105年12月公布施行之後到現在這樣的立法目的，主委可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：可以，我們會後會去反映給原民會，請原民會提案，然後到我們這裡來審核的時候我們會協助。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，非常謝謝主委，因為時間滿急迫的，若要列入在明年的預算的話，就是……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，有點……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，時間上……但是因為過去有很多的經驗，所以應該是可以很快地來去做修正核定，就麻煩主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們現在請鄭正鈐委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","邱志偉","王鴻薇","賴瑞隆","蔡易餘","林倩綺","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","陳冠廷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00003"}}},{"id":"159345","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159345","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b88d14ff6c9d21332939fe1519e09d1f6f8962b2f3400241f68307012682d3d8fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:37:38 - 10:46:32","影片長度":"00:08:54","會議時間":"2025-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案19案。【報告事項】【如經復議則不予處理】\n三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算關於勞動部主管部分。\n【3月17日、19日及20日三天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-19","start_time":"2025-03-19T10:37:38+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-19T10:46:32+08:00","duration":534,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-3-26-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.25034375000000003,"end":0.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.36409375,"end":1.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.9334687500000003,"end":3.8615937500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.097843750000001,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":6.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.730343750000001,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.58159375,"end":36.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.767843750000004,"end":50.976593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.44909375,"end":64.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.56096875,"end":67.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.86846875,"end":74.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.20909375000001,"end":75.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.63096875000001,"end":111.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.04721875000001,"end":114.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.29159375,"end":115.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.23221875,"end":130.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.42909375,"end":126.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.25534375,"end":137.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.29221875000002,"end":137.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.34284375000001,"end":158.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.72346875000002,"end":161.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.59221875,"end":161.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.65971875,"end":165.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.98846875,"end":164.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.91659375,"end":180.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.64409375000002,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.97721875000002,"end":195.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.88221875000002,"end":195.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.06346875,"end":197.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.08034375000003,"end":214.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.38159375,"end":216.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.33471875,"end":232.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.06221875000003,"end":235.85909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.85909375000003,"end":236.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.19659375,"end":236.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.58471875,"end":242.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.16596875000002,"end":261.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.77909375,"end":277.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.94534375,"end":291.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.37346875000003,"end":307.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.56534375,"end":309.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.70409375,"end":309.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.88971875000004,"end":310.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.22721875,"end":316.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.20096875,"end":317.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.75346875,"end":330.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.96659375,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.03409375,"end":349.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":350.47409375,"end":372.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.71971875,"end":371.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.39471875000004,"end":397.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.09596875,"end":394.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.81284375,"end":404.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.28846875000005,"end":417.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":417.60284375000003,"end":423.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.55971875,"end":423.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.62721875000005,"end":433.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.32596875,"end":435.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":435.42284375,"end":440.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.65409375,"end":448.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.05784375,"end":455.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.43659375000004,"end":460.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.97159375,"end":485.98034375000003},{"spe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針對我們現在討論的時事 比如說七天假這些我覺得在我們原住民的觀點來看 我覺得還是很幸福因為我們還沒有到達那個層級 討論七天假的這個層級因為我們還是在討論都會原住民工地的杯葛 也就是說"},{"start":33.986,"end":50.118,"text":"我們在看這個報導就是今年的1月份我們基隆市的一個理事長原住民的理事長叫班奈他說我們現在有一個工地的一個潛規則三不一要不能叫救護車不能就近就醫不能住院也就是說"},{"start":51.799,"end":78.565,"text":"現在如果你發生就是工地的意外的時候為了避免就是被停工啊或這些處分啊他們就會做這些規避的動作你不覺得我們的工作環境還是這樣的時候我們怎麼去討論7天的假確實原住民的勞工跟勞工朋友在很多工作的情形上面是特別辛苦對我這還要跟你說的就是說現在因為我們"},{"start":79.278,"end":102.852,"text":"大部分的工作都是做最高的比如說工地營價最深的比如說礦業最遠的遠洋漁業然後我們現在的勞動大概是將近有我們的29萬也就是占了1200萬的裡面的剛剛好跟我們的人口比例差不多在2.5左右可是我們現在的那個勞動檢查讓我們這些可以拿到傷害補償還有就是容易受傷"},{"start":103.892,"end":114.791,"text":"這些沒有辦法在即時得到一些需要的幫忙比如說現在有高達五成拿不到所謂的工商你覺得你有這方面的一個解決方案嗎"},{"start":116.24,"end":136.878,"text":"跟委員報告凡是有重大傷害說我們檢查機構都去檢查檢查對勞工保護我們有勞工的那個職在個管的服務會進入進去做就協助不過申請傷病給付啊私人給付我們都會積極來處理那是因為有保險的部分可是很多在工地然後那些工頭為了方便起見常常都沒有納入保險"},{"start":137.278,"end":161.4,"text":"報告委員因為我們災保法通過之後這個就是應該就是強制加保如果沒有加保我們還是會依照保險局部給予那後會再跟勞工做求償所以這兩三年因為災保法的進度之後我們對無加保的勞工會有比較好的保護那剛剛委員詮詢的部分我們會透過後會透過跟地方政府再進一步合作就是漏掉的勞工我們趕快把他接上來那如果說我還是聽到這些東西的話我直接找你嗎沒問題"},{"start":162,"end":179.239,"text":"因為這些事情常常會跑到辦公室來尋求幫忙確實我們發現營造工地裡面承攬承攬在轉包的部分是很明顯的但是即使是這樣子受僱的勞工不管是原住民或是一般民眾只要是他有工作的執行我們都認為他會在我們保護的範圍內"},{"start":180.74,"end":195.642,"text":"好 那針對我們所謂的照顧不離職的部分我們還是發現我們原住民因為結婚生育或者是因為家庭照顧的部分還是有高達9.4%是因為這些原因離開的你覺得部長你可以做哪些努力"},{"start":197.719,"end":215.765,"text":"我們其實當然希望整體的現在討論在照顧不離職裡面就是希望能夠是不是能夠在這個工時的做法上或者是在請假或留庭的做法上面能夠提供勞工更多的彈性是不是因為他的就業環境不友善"},{"start":217.086,"end":241.247,"text":"也許比方說像確實原住民族他也許他工作的類型會有一些他的特性可是我們是希望說這個整體的照顧因為照顧部體的討論的其實包括原住民跟非原住民都在這個政策規劃的範圍裡面那我是希望這個9.4%能夠及早能夠進步好不好當然加上我們現在看到平均的薪資如果4萬以下大概70%"},{"start":243.869,"end":271.016,"text":"3萬以下的還有30%我就說原住民的平均薪資大概還是落在這個區間那政府有做努力那我有看了一下就是說原民會有針對我們促進原住民就業獎勵計畫這個部分他大概在每個縣市全國大概有600位去年有600位受到補助可是好你說600位那我們目前的失業率來看的話失業率我們是3.46也就是有一萬多人"},{"start":271.636,"end":290.159,"text":"那可是我們的再就業率大概是12.45%也就是說其實這個補助大概只有一半而已就是說真正需要的人目前是600位可是我們的再就業率是12.45%也就是1200人左右所以這個部分我想這個缺口是不是需要勞動部來幫忙"},{"start":292.621,"end":316.011,"text":"跟委員報告這個有關原住民朋友的在居的獎勵是我們園民會的一個措施那當然勞動部以往在跟園民會有在這個跨部會的平台上會做這個協調所以這個部分我們會透過我們的相關的服務的據點來協助園會把這個措施讓更多的對我已經實際告訴你了目前的缺大概就是一半了理解園民會幫忙了一半那勞動部這邊能不能再努力我知道政府有做啦可是就是做得不夠好不好"},{"start":316.451,"end":334.273,"text":"這個我們在做部會的協調 上次部長你來拜訪辦公室的時候 我有跟你講到 常態性的這些我們安心即時上工的計畫比如說環境清潔 文化傳承導覽解說 能夠變成常態性的讓很多人因為工作 因為文化的關係"},{"start":335.334,"end":348.808,"text":"他被認同的關係他不想離開部落他需要一份工作來溫飽他不一定要很多的錢可是如果說可能一萬塊左右或者兩萬塊左右他就覺得很滿足了像這種即時安心工作的話其實可以做長遠的規劃"},{"start":350.509,"end":371.085,"text":"那個跟路人報告我們其實我們也可以來看一下現在我們一些就位輔助就位服務相關的計畫或者是裡面有沒有在哪些部分那特別適合來跟包括像委員辦公室或原住民的朋友來去做更直接的對接的合作的部分我們非常非常樂意來檢討"},{"start":372.466,"end":400.601,"text":"我也樂見你對安定就業基金的這個部分的一些改善的面向你大概也解釋得很清楚了不過裡面獨獨缺了就是安定原住民的就業狀況其實原住民的勞工有我剛才說了29萬多人那失業的大概1萬多人其實如果你可以改善這些的話其實對我們原住民的生活會有很大的進步可以嗎是至少這個面向裡面你那麼多面向裡面沒有一個是我們會來我們會來請法案署在特別針對原住民的"},{"start":401.101,"end":422.374,"text":"就業的工作的狀況看我們怎麼樣可以提供更多的協助還有移工的部分現在要開放移工可是有15%點多的大概將近16%的原住民是被取代的這個被取代的部分你覺得應該要怎麼來進步我想從勞工部的角度來說我們當然會認為本土勞工的就業權利本國的勞工就業權利應該是要優先"},{"start":423.715,"end":440.254,"text":"對可是百分之十六很多喔所以這個部分要盡量去避免不然我們越來越多人失去工作已經生活已經很困難又失去工作的話又被取代的話不是變成次等工作對我們希望這個要以本國勞工有閒之處我覺得這是我們很清楚的立場"},{"start":440.894,"end":459.829,"text":"目前你來的時候有講到資產霸凌的部分其實我們也收到很多資產霸凌的一些申訴可是我希望在那麼多的努力當中比如說我希望能夠公布它的霸凌的樣態霸凌的單位目前處理的進度不然申訴員他永遠覺得他被漠視"},{"start":461.05,"end":485.822,"text":"所以我是覺得說因為上次比如說講那個單位你就說它的全職單位是哪裡哪裡可是當然我們沒有辦法去細看每一個人發生的那個事情可是如果有一個網站可以讓申訴人知道說我的霸凌的樣態被公佈了我霸凌的單位被公佈了然後我目前的處理進度是怎麼樣讓申訴人覺得說他有被重視我覺得是不是可以朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":486.963,"end":500.558,"text":"我想保護申訴人的權益然後包括他的救濟的管道包括保護他的相關的個資包括他的權利我想這當然都是我們在設計這個機制裡面非常重要的環節"},{"start":501.739,"end":525.965,"text":"關心我還是就做一個問題來問部長我剛剛看了你的那個報告裡面大概我們的職災給付大概50億左右然後去年那個重大職災的死亡大概287我相信這裡面的很多是族人那我們的高空掉落的不僅沒有減少反而增加那我想知道這個50億裡面希望你三個月以內給我一個報告就是說50億裡面有多少是給原住民的"},{"start":526.345,"end":529.052,"text":"好不好 讓我能夠掌握好 我們來請 這我們請我們的夜館單位來提供 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":725,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時37分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：盧委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：部長好。針對我們現在要討論的時事，比如7天假，在我們原住民的觀點來看，我覺得還是很幸福，因為我們還沒有到達討論7天假的這個層級，我們還是在討論都會原住民的工地悲歌。我們來看這個報導，今年1月份基隆市原住民理事長拔耐說現在工地有一個潛規則叫「三不一要」，不能叫救護車、不能就近就醫、不能住院，也就是現在如果你發生工地意外的話，為了避免被停工或處分，他們就會做這些規避的動作，你不覺得我們的工作環境還是這樣的時候，我們怎麼去討論7天假呢？"],["洪部長申翰：確實，原住民的勞工朋友在很多工作情形上面是特別辛苦。"],["盧委員縣一：我還要跟你說的是，現在因為我們大部分的工作都是做最高的，比如工地鷹架；最深的，比如礦業；最遠的遠洋漁業，我們現在的勞動人數將近有29萬，剛剛好跟我們的人口比例差不多在2.5%左右，可是現在的勞動檢查對於我們可以拿到傷害補償，還有就是容易受傷這些沒有辦法即時得到一些需要的幫忙，比如，現在有高達五成拿不到所謂的工傷，你覺得你有這方面的解決方案嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，凡是有重大傷害，我們的檢查機構都會去檢查，對於勞工的保護，我們有勞工職災個管的服務會進入進去做協助，包括申請傷病給付、失能給付，我們都會積極來處理。"],["盧委員縣一：那是因為有保險的部分，可是很多在工地，然後那些工頭為了方便起見常常都沒有納入保險。"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，災保法通過之後就是強制加保，如果沒有加保，我們還是會依照保險給付給予，之後會再跟勞工做求償，所以這兩、三年，因為災保法，我們對無加保的勞工會有比較好的保護。而剛剛委員垂詢的部分，我們會跟地方政府再進一步合作，漏掉的勞工我們趕快把他接上來。"],["盧委員縣一：如果我還是聽到這些東西的話，我直接找你嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：沒問題。"],["盧委員縣一：因為這些事情，他們常常會到辦公室來尋求幫忙。"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，確實我們發現營造工地裡面承攬再轉包的部分，是很明顯的，但即使是這樣，受僱的勞工，不管是原住民或是一般民眾，只要是他有工作的執行，我們都認為他在我們保護的範圍內。"],["盧委員縣一：好。接下來針對所謂的照顧不離職的部分，我們發現原住民還是有高達9.4%是因為結婚生育或是因為家庭照顧這些原因而離職的，部長，你覺得你可以做哪些努力？"],["洪部長申翰：現在整體在討論的照顧不離職裡面，就是希望在工時的作法或是請假或留停的作法上面，能夠提供勞工更多的彈性。"],["盧委員縣一：我常常覺得是不是因為他的就業環境不友善？"],["洪部長申翰：確實像是原住民族，也許工作的類型會有其特性，可是我們希望在整體的照顧上，因為照顧不離職的討論其實包括原住民跟非原住民都在這個政策規劃的範圍內。"],["盧委員縣一：我還是希望這個9.4%的部分能夠進步，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，當然。"],["盧委員縣一：加上我們現在看到平均薪資，4萬以下大概是70%，3萬以下的還有30%，我們原住民的平均薪資大概還是落在這個區間，政府有努力，我有看了一下，原民會有針對促進原住民就業獎勵計畫這個部分，在每個縣市，全國去年大概有600位受到補助，可是以目前的失業率來看，我們是3.46%，也就是有一萬多人，而再就業率大概是12.45%，也就是說其實這個補助大概只有一半而已，就是真正需要的人目前是600位，可是再就業率是12.45%，也就是1,200人左右，這個缺口是不是需要勞動部來幫忙？"],["陳代理署長世昌：跟委員報告，有關原住民朋友的再就業獎勵是我們原民會的一個措施，當然勞動部以往會跟原民會在跨部會的平臺上協調，所以這個部分我們會透過我們相關的服務據點來協助……"],["盧委員縣一：我已經實際告訴你了，目前的缺大概就是一半啦！"],["陳代理署長世昌：理解。"],["盧委員縣一：原民會幫忙了一半，勞動部這邊能不能再努力？我知道政府有做了，可是就是做得不夠，好不好？"],["陳代理署長世昌：這個部分我們再做部會的協調。"],["盧委員縣一：好。部長，上次你來拜訪辦公室的時候，我有跟你講到，就是常態性的這些安心即時上工計畫，比如環境清潔、文化傳承、導覽解說等等能夠變成常態性的，不然很多人因為工作、因為文化的關係，或是因為認同的關係，他不想離開部落，他需要一份工作來溫飽，不一定要很多錢，可能一萬塊或兩萬塊左右他就覺得很滿足了，像這種安心即時上工計畫其實可以做長遠的規劃。"],["洪部長申翰：跟盧委員報告，其實我們也可以來看一下現在我們的就業輔助、就業服務相關計畫，裡面有沒有哪些部分特別適合跟包括像委員辦公室或原住民朋友更直接的對接、合作，我們非常、非常樂意來檢討。"],["盧委員縣一：好，我也樂見你對安定就業基金部分的一些改善面向，你大概也解釋得很清楚了，不過裡面獨獨缺了安定原住民的就業狀況。我剛才有說了，其實原住民的勞工有二十九萬多人，失業的大概一萬多人，如果你可以改善這些的話，其實會讓我們原住民的生活有很大的進步，可以嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["盧委員縣一：至少在這個面向裡面，你們那麼多面向裡面沒有一個是我們原住民相關的。"],["洪部長申翰：我們會請勞發署再特別針對原住民的就業工作狀況，看我們怎麼樣能夠提供更多的協助。"],["盧委員縣一：還有移工的部分，現在要開放移工，可是有百分之十五點多、將近16%的原住民是被取代的，這個被取代的部分，你覺得應該要怎麼樣來進步？"],["洪部長申翰：我想從勞動部的角度來說，我們當然會認為本土勞工的就業權利、本國勞工的就業權利應該是要優先的。"],["盧委員縣一：對，可是16%很多喔！"],["洪部長申翰：對，所以……"],["盧委員縣一：所以這個部分要儘量去避免，不然我們越來越多人失去工作，生活已經很困難，又失去工作、又被取代的話，不是變成次等公民嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們希望要以本國勞工優先，我覺得這是我們很清楚的立場。"],["盧委員縣一：好。你上任的時候，我有講到職場霸凌的部分，其實我們也收到很多職場霸凌的申訴，在這麼多的努力當中，我希望能夠公布霸凌的樣態、霸凌的單位、目前處理的進度，不然申訴人永遠覺得他被漠視。你上次有講那個單位，就是他的權責單位是哪裡、哪裡，當然我們沒有辦法去細看每個人發生的事情，可是如果有一個網站可以讓申訴人知道他被霸凌的樣態被公布了、霸凌的單位被公布了，以及目前的處理進度是怎麼樣，讓申訴人覺得他有被重視，我覺得是不是可以朝這個方向來努力？"],["洪部長申翰：我想保護申訴人的權益，包括他的救濟管道，包括保護他的相關個資，包括他的權益，我想這當然都是我們在設計這個機制裡面非常重要的環節。"],["盧委員縣一：好，因為時間的關係，我還是就最後一個問題來問部長。我剛剛看了你的報告裡面寫到，我們的職災給付大概是50億左右，去年重大職災的死亡大概是287，我相信這裡面很多是族人，而我們的高空掉落部分不僅沒有減少，反而增加，我想知道這50億裡面，希望你3個月以內給我一個報告就是在這50億裡面有多少是給原住民的，好不好？讓我能夠掌握。"],["洪部長申翰：好，這部分我請我們的業管單位來提供。謝謝。"],["盧委員縣一：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請王正旭委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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有請部長有請部長是 陳委員好部長好AIT處長古立言日前回應媒體的詢問有關這個川普總統的印太戰略那麼他說"},{"start":25.762,"end":42.904,"text":"根據美國已經解密的印太戰略的框架那可以他們參考請問我們的同仁看了沒有這份解密的這個是不是請看請這次來說明一下"},{"start":53.857,"end":72.247,"text":"委員好 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佐鎮新化隆起這都是比較屬於比較山區的部分"},{"start":90.698,"end":119.043,"text":"所以我要說地方創生其實對地方有一個很重要的一個協助就是讓它有一個整合性的一個協助讓它整個往上提升把它的產業跟地方做一個結合把它的特色能夠完完全全的發揮這是我們地方創生的主要意義那當然我們現在包括還在輔導中的有我們的淑女村"},{"start":120.123,"end":123.409,"text":"這很夯喔 就是我們的貨幣還有我們的鹽袋在外面購入7個中間咖哩還有安庭6年大來 生活會有7個案"},{"start":133.446,"end":155.952,"text":"總共有七個案那這個部分其實我們現在希望這當然還有很多下面的資計劃主要計劃是這樣還有資計劃資計劃就是在各個部會來協助所以總共我們預計要爭取就這七個案子爭取6.39億6.39億那我們希望"},{"start":162.079,"end":183.55,"text":"我們的主委特別給我們關照一下趕快因為早一點通過早一點讓我們上路因為其實我們在講的地方創生完了之後它的關鍵是在下一步就是說當我地方創生做好了之後我的下一步我要怎麼去讓人"},{"start":185.598,"end":202.089,"text":"包括所有的年輕的朋友能夠回到這裡然後再帶動觀光這是一步一步的不是說今天地方創生做好了就沒事了沒有這麼好啦地方創生之後他就可以自己生雞蛋嗎不會"},{"start":203.776,"end":223.493,"text":"這還是母雞 完了之後你要看要怎麼讓它可以繼續往下扎根所以其實我們越早讓我們目前規劃中的地方創生趕快push 讓它能夠到位的話早一天我們能夠讓我們的金雞母生金雞蛋"},{"start":224.293,"end":238.22,"text":"這才是我們地方創生的意義所以我們要拜託說 現在福島中的七個案子包括後壁的淑女村 炎帝 鹽堤啦這就七個縣區 鹽堤這個地方還有安定區 柳營區 大內區 散化區跟下營區這個部分 總共有6.39億的這樣的一個預算再拜託主委幫忙 早一天讓我們上路啦"},{"start":252.907,"end":257.269,"text":"好 我們會盡力 這總共7案有39項嘛我們會特別輔導 盡量讓這個6.391好 這個很重要啦 因為前面有18個案其實這18個案子有一件還是在我們北區啦這個是長照的特殊性的一個地方創生 結合成大醫院所以其實它有很多不一樣的樣態"},{"start":277.998,"end":301.891,"text":"可是做了之後說真的它可以改變的是地方的特色跟地方的產值甚至是地方它所需要的一個量能所以拜託主委這個部分那另外一個就是說我們現在在談的就是我們大南方新矽谷推動方案這個計畫很大非常的大"},{"start":303.488,"end":329.14,"text":"極大但是大家都在看到底什麼時候可以達到我們心目中這樣的一個期許跟我們的績效這整個案子都是由國客會在規劃執行的對不對那我們現在預計要結合沙崙智慧綠能科學層還有我們半導體的S狼帶也就是從嘉義到屏東這個半導體的S狼帶"},{"start":332.632,"end":352.323,"text":"這也是我們重視整個南部經濟發展很重要關鍵的一個大計畫還有重點是要AI為核心產業AI化AI產業化我們的大南方新矽谷的優勢對不對這計畫好大喔 主委"},{"start":355.541,"end":373.2,"text":"這計畫好大現在我們第一步要先來做我們的整個規劃的就是AI運算資料中心的建置這第一步啦沒錯對不對好這一個AI運算資料中心的建置"},{"start":374.561,"end":399.278,"text":"總共計畫是51.19億規劃在台南沙崙智慧綠能科學城的部分地上五層 地下兩層 再加上基礎設施計畫是要114年到117年好沒錯 我們已經合訂這個計畫送院了對 已經合訂了 送院了報導行政院那行政院預計什麼時候"},{"start":402.557,"end":431.181,"text":"可以有一個動向這個我們可能我們再去行政院洽詢一下再跟您報告這個很重要因為我們的計畫期程是114年這個應該因為這總統很關切所以這個速度應該不會太久了對 這很重要因為你今天這個是很重要的地上五層 地下兩層再加上基礎設施還有軟硬體你這個是土建"},{"start":431.621,"end":451.098,"text":"而且這是我們最先進的算力中心在那裡沒錯啊AI如果沒有最先進的話基本上我們跟不上世界的潮流啊對不對所以我們很期待這114年到117年今年是關鍵不要第一年就跳票"},{"start":452.637,"end":468.713,"text":"好的不要第一年就跳票這個我們大家都在期待好你這個AI運算資料中心你扎根了你才能去推動所謂的我們要去結合S狼帶現在來了我們有一個半導體"},{"start":470.953,"end":482.077,"text":"我們半導體這個是當然重點是經濟部啦但是這個knowhow還是在我們的國發會重要的審核還是在我們的國發會就是說在整個半導體的推動經濟部提出了也是到117年我想這整個是配合好的啦"},{"start":489.381,"end":508.137,"text":"配合好的就是加上整個半導體的S狼帶整個配合好所以我們產值是2.66兆元工作機會要25萬個半導體的材料產值目標材料喔半導體的材料喔他要增加三成528億半導體的設備產值目標是800億"},{"start":515.303,"end":541.332,"text":"這個大家眼睛為之一亮大家要看這裡啊其實最近大家都一直在講台積電去美國投資一千億美元其實我們必須說全世界對於我們半導體的需求台積電半導體我們的所謂的基本架構其實它的需求是很高的"},{"start":542.879,"end":558.979,"text":"所以在這樣的一個重點我們的know-how沒有改變就是說半導體在我們台積電他沒有把他的技術也就是他自己在原本研發的這個最重要的頭腦他不可能這個頭腦還在台灣"},{"start":563.433,"end":589.385,"text":"沒錯對不對這個頭腦還在台灣他基本上他要去其他國家去設廠是因為需求因為他要去各地去設廠我們台灣因為大家的整個能量需求能量已經擴展所以他必須到其他國家去設廠這就是這個概念我覺得大家都把他本末倒置了如果說一家公司他沒有去其他國家設廠"},{"start":591.36,"end":614.138,"text":"他就表示他沒有辦法去拓展他其他更多的訂單現在訂單的量已經超越了我們自己台灣能夠去cover的部分所以台積電他一定要去國外設廠啊但是他所有的研發都在台灣這是重點啊對主研發都在台灣沒有錯台積電會那麼笨嗎不會吧"},{"start":618.266,"end":634.031,"text":"台積電所有的主研發它一定要留在台灣這才是根本所以我覺得現在大家在說我們為什麼要讓台積電去美國去投資是不是有什麼樣的under table的一個所謂我們答應美國的條件"},{"start":639.033,"end":650.11,"text":"其實美國還是半導體技術的領先全球最領先的它是技術可是在台積電我們的研發台積電其實現在最厲害的是在它的研發"},{"start":651.78,"end":669.152,"text":"我們是製造技術最領先的美國是半導體技術最領先的日本是化學材料半導體材料最領先所以我覺得在這個部分其實我們應該看的為什麼在經濟部他要在五大信賴產業推動方案要再有一個半導體的推動"},{"start":670.553,"end":693.349,"text":"這就是關鍵了因為我們的需求量絕對不是因為今天台積電有沒有去美國去投資這1000億美元而是在我們整個的需求量已經超出了我們原本的需求所以我們必須做了這個半導體的推動創造更多的產值也就結合我們的S狼帶所以"},{"start":695.63,"end":719.9,"text":"主委我們要加油 因為其實我會提出這兩個一個是屬於我們在台南一個我們城鄉結合帶動觀光帶動地方發展的區塊一個是高科技在於產業經濟結合的部分我們怎麼把它做一個大南方結合 南部地方整個大結合做串聯"},{"start":721.107,"end":745.808,"text":"對 我們將來的機器人專區也會在台南的北部嘛在台南對 在柳營新營那個地方就是在我們的西北啊在我們的西北啊對啊 所以我們整個串聯起來其實大南方計畫對於我們的產值是不一樣的對 會帶動所以我們在台南未來的發展是有高科技 有高技能"},{"start":746.488,"end":774.487,"text":"有高研發也有精密技術然後我們也有在城鄉結合我們的創生計畫帶動地方的觀光發展帶動地方的產能那是完全不一樣在結合我們的食農教育所以我相信在台南未來是完完全全的大爆發所以我們希望這兩個案子剛好都是國發會拜託主委給我們台南一個更大的未來謝謝"},{"start":776.756,"end":776.777,"text":"好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":335,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時26分）謝謝召委，我們請主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：陳委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委好。主委，我想臺南的地方創生是一個很重要的計畫，因為在國發會，其實從地方創生元年開始一直到現在，我們臺南都扮演很重要的角色。因為縣市合併之後有很多城鄉的需求跟城鄉的規劃，剛好在地方創生可以符合，所以其實我們拿了很多的案子，包括我們目前有提出18個地方創生的計畫，已經媒合成功執行的大概有11案，目前還在輔導計畫當中的是7案，有5案已經開過輔導會，現在也都在修正當中，在繼續輔導的有2個案子。這是最近113年到114年剛通過的案子，在楠西區、玉井區、左鎮、新化、龍崎，這都是屬於比較山區的部分，所以我說地方創生其實對地方有一個很重要的協助，就是讓它有一個整合性的協助，讓它整個往上提升，把它的產業跟地方做一個結合，把它的特色能夠完完全全的發揮，這是我們地方創生的主要意義。","現在還在輔導中的有我們的俗女村，這很夯，就是我們的後壁；還有鹽地，這是我的故鄉，七股、將軍、佳里，還有安定、柳營、大內、善化、下營，總共有7個案。當然還有很多下面的支計畫，主要計畫是這樣。此外還有支計畫，支計畫就是由各個部會來協助，這7個案子我們預計總共要爭取6.39億，我們希望主委特別給我們關照一下，早一點通過，早一點讓我們上路。","因為我們在講，地方創生完了之後，它的關鍵是在下一步。就是說當我的地方創生做好了之後，我的下一步要怎麼去讓人、包括所有的年輕朋友能夠回到這裡，然後再帶動觀光，這是一步一步的，不是說今天地方創生做好了就沒事了，沒這麼好。地方創生之後，就可以自己生雞蛋嗎？不會！它是母雞，完了之後你要看，怎麼讓它可以繼續往下扎根。其實我們越早讓目前規劃中的地方創生趕快push、能夠到位的話，就能夠早一天讓我們的金雞母生金雞蛋，這才是地方創生的意義。所以我要拜託，現在輔導中的7個案子，包括後壁的俗女村及七股、將軍、佳里、鹽地這個地方，還有安定區、柳營區、大內區、善化區跟下營區，這個部分總共有6.39億的預算，再拜託主委幫忙，早一天讓我們上路。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我們會盡力。總共7案有39項，我們會特別輔導，儘量讓這6.39億能夠……"],["陳委員亭妃：這個很重要。因為前面有18個案子，有一件還是在北區，這個是長照的、特殊性的地方創生，結合成大醫院，所以它有很多不一樣的樣態，可是做了之後，說真的，它可以改變的是地方的特色跟地方的產值，甚至是地方所需要的量能，所以這個部分就拜託主委。","另外一個，我們現在在談的就是大南方新矽谷推動方案，這個計畫很大、非常的大、極大，所以大家都在看到底什麼時候可以達到我們心目中的期許跟績效？這整個案子都是由國科會在規劃執行的，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們現在預計要結合沙崙智慧綠能科學城，還有半導體S廊帶。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：也就是從嘉義到屏東的半導體S廊帶，這也是我們重視整個南部經濟發展很重要關鍵的大計畫，還有重點是要以AI為核心，產業AI化、AI產業化，這是大南方新矽谷的優勢，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：主委，這個計畫好大！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：現在我們第一步要先來規劃的就是AI運算資料中心的建置，這是第一步，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個AI運算資料中心的建置計畫總共是51.19億，規劃設在臺南沙崙智慧綠能科學城，地上五層、地下兩層，再加上基礎設施，計畫是114年到117年。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯，我們已經核定這個計畫送院了。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，已經核定送院了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，報到行政院。"],["陳委員亭妃：行政院預計什麼時候可以有一個動向？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們洽詢一下行政院再跟您報告。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個很重要，因為計畫期程是114年。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為總統很關切，所以這個應該不會太久，在行政院……"],["陳委員亭妃：對，這很重要。因為今天這個是很重要的，地上五層、地下兩層，再加上基礎設施，還有軟硬體，這個是土建。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：而且這裡是我們最先進的算力中心。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯！AI如果沒有最先進的話，基本上，我們跟不上世界的潮流，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我們很期待114年到117年，今年是關鍵，不要第一年就跳票。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["陳委員亭妃：不要第一年就跳票！大家都在期待。這個AI運算資料中心扎根了，才能去推動並結合S廊帶。現在來了，半導體的重點當然是經濟部，但是這個know how重要的審核還是在國發會。在整個半導體的推動，經濟部提出了也是到117年，我想這整個是配合好的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：加上半導體S廊帶，整個配合好，產值是2.66兆元，工作機會要25萬個，半導體的材料目標產值要增加三成、528億，半導體的設備產值目標是800億，這個讓大家眼睛為之一亮，大家要看這裡。最近大家都一直在講台積電去美國投資1,000億美元，其實我們必須說全世界對於我們半導體的需求、台積電的半導體，所謂基本架構的需求是很高的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以在這樣的重點，我們的know how沒有改變。台積電沒有把它的半導體技術移出，也就是它自己原本研發最重要的頭腦還在臺灣，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個頭腦還在臺灣，基本上，它要去其他國家設廠，是因為需求，所以要去各地設廠。因為大家的需求能量已經擴展，所以它必須到其他國家去設廠，就是這個概念，我覺得大家都本末倒置了。如果一家公司沒有去其他國家設廠，就表示它沒有辦法去拓展其他更多的訂單。現在訂單的量已經超越了臺灣自己能夠去cover的部分……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以台積電一定要去國外設廠，但是它所有的研發都在臺灣，這是重點。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，主研發都在臺灣，沒有錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：台積電會那麼笨嗎？不會吧？台積電所有的主研發一定要留在臺灣，這才是根本，所以我覺得現在大家在說，為什麼要讓台積電去美國投資？是不是有什麼樣under table的、所謂我們答應美國的條件？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：其實美國還是半導體技術的領先，全球最領先的。"],["陳委員亭妃：他是技術，可是台積電的研發……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們是製造領先。"],["陳委員亭妃：台積電其實現在最厲害的是在它的研發，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們是製造技術最領先的，而美國是半導體技術最領先的，日本是化學材料、半導體材料最領先。"],["陳委員亭妃：我覺得在這個部分，其實我們應該看的是，為什麼經濟部要在五大信賴產業推動方案，再有一個半導體的推動？這就是關鍵，絕對不是因為今天台積電有沒有去美國投資這1,000億美元，而是整個的需求量已經超出了原本的需求。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我們必須做半導體的推動，創造更多產值，也就結合S廊帶。主委，我們要加油。我會提出這兩個，一個是屬於臺南的城鄉結合，帶動觀光、帶動地方發展的區塊；一個是高科技在於產業、經濟結合的部分，我們怎麼把它做一個大南方結合，也就是南部地方整個大結合、串聯。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們將來的機器人專區也會設在臺南北部。"],["陳委員亭妃：在臺南？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，在柳營、新營那個地方。"],["陳委員亭妃：就是在我們的溪北？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，北區、溪北。"],["陳委員亭妃：在我們的溪北？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：溪北會建。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，所以整個串聯起來，其實大南方計畫對於我們的產值是不一樣的。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，會帶動。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以臺南未來的發展是有高科技、有高技能、有高研發……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：也有精密技術。"],["陳委員亭妃：也有精密技術？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：然後我們也有在城鄉結合創生計畫，帶動地方的觀光發展，帶動地方的產能，那是完全不一樣的，再結合食農教育，所以我相信臺南未來會完完全全的大爆發。這兩個案子剛好都是國發會的，拜託主委好給我們臺南一個更大的未來，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","休息（10時39分）","繼續開會（10時45分）"],["主席：我們現在請鄭天財委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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我們的部長竟然回答不出來還是你根本就不敢回答"},{"start":148.178,"end":173.138,"text":"你也不敢講支持你也不敢講反對我很清楚說了我們勞工部認為有正向討論的好那我就解讀說洪森漢支持還給勞工7天假那個我們覺得我們在政策討論的時候我覺得都應該要這個語意上面可以更精準這是我是希望說政策的討論要明確啊語意精準然後盡量不去做各種講話那我說洪森漢反對還給勞工7天假"},{"start":176.355,"end":199.785,"text":"這個一樣也是這個不精準的簡化的詮釋啊其實部長你這樣子讓人家還蠻失望的大家說你從基層上來你最了解勞工的心聲結果在這種應該要表態的立場上面你還是用一種模糊以對不敢完全的表達自己站穩自己的立場如果勞動部部長都不敢站穩自己的立場"},{"start":201.065,"end":207.066,"text":"內政部反對那請問行政院團隊裡面有哪一個內閣是支持還給勞工七天假的當勞動部都不敢幫勞工發聲那請問勞工要依靠誰為什麼我們歷任的這個勞動部部長都是往資方靠攏呢然後當時說換你上來會比較好因為你是從基層上來最理解勞工我看也沒有這樣子啊"},{"start":226.55,"end":241.443,"text":"你該表態的時候你現在是不是當了官之後也不太敢表態了還要看上億還是你要看內政部的臉色因為人家內政部部長已經不同意了你就不敢站在勞動部部長立場大聲的說我跟他立場不一樣我認為應該再還給勞工七天假"},{"start":245.206,"end":265.698,"text":"勞動部也是大的執政團隊議員 該表達的事情我們會表達但這個議題的主管 法規主管單位是內政部所以我們有我們的態度 那我們的態度就是覺得這個議題有正向討論的空間那就是要增加七天假嘛 應該就可以下這樣的標嘛 你不反對吧"},{"start":267.821,"end":289.418,"text":"正向討論的空間是什麼就是你支持嘛我們覺得這個議題有討論的空間好那就是你支持我要讓你看一下那個數據我們現在的年總工時其實是不降反升近五年來從108年到現在它呈現的幅度本來有跌到谷底了就是不到這個一年不到"},{"start":291.299,"end":316.673,"text":"2000現在去年又回升了到2030了所以在這樣的一個情況底下我們的勞工面對這一個工時過場的情況其實是沒有真正改善的如果可以多給他們這7天假我想是會有效的降低他的年總工時這個是數學的問題一看就知道而你看到這個我們跟日韓的特休日的比較我們對於新進的這個勞工我們現在給的"},{"start":320.035,"end":347.806,"text":"休假天數是比較少的日本在第一年的時候是10天韓國是15天他們其實都很高我們是到後面年資的時候就是你的年資可能超過十幾年的時候我們才往上加所以這個當然對於比較年輕的勞工來講他現在面臨到的情況就是工時長國定假日少然後這個特休日數在第一年的時候也是相對日韓來講是比較低的所以我想勞工團體他們才會提出來嘛"},{"start":349.807,"end":375.858,"text":"希望可以多增加這一個國定假日的7天假那我希望在這件事情上面部長你真的要站穩你的立場你搖擺的時候這個勞工的訴求就不可能達成因為連部長都不挺都不支持你的態度都不明確這個是不會有答案的接下來我要講的是這個防治霸凌專章對於保護勞工也是非常重要我要問你們你們的草案預計什麼時候對外公告"},{"start":378.288,"end":391.324,"text":"我們的草案目前其實已經在最後的收尾的階段那我們希望在這個會期大概我們也希望能夠盡快的把它預告出來然後能夠在這個會期送到立法院"},{"start":392.391,"end":408.97,"text":"對 什麼時候要預告因為最後有些條文我們還在做相關的這一週會對外預告嗎可能沒有辦法到這一週這麼快那我們會盡快那是不是可以下週就對外可以預告我也希望盡快"},{"start":411.612,"end":428.643,"text":"我希望下週就可以預告那這其中有幾個部分我覺得很重要的我希望在你們的草案裡面要去定的更完整一個就是你的申訴機制你現在有沒有要求一定規模的企業他要建立申訴管道比照這個新工法"},{"start":431.467,"end":449.149,"text":"現在是應該是往這個方向就是在申訴調查包括這些相關你們現在是多少規模你們現在初步的草案多少規模要建立申訴法我們是有一定規模的企業的要求但是詳細的內容等到我們預告的時候會讓委員這邊知道你們現在應該有大概的方向有"},{"start":453.49,"end":476.105,"text":"這比較新公法嗎?是30號嗎?比較新公法嗎?因為這個法規大家的討論都會去參考新公法的概念那另外一個霸凌的調查應要透明化你們現在外部委員佔的比例有沒有要求要多少?我要求至少要半數我想現在大家都認為外部委員是很重要的所以會過半嘛對不對?在你們的草案裡面有沒有過半?是"},{"start":478.257,"end":507.12,"text":"有 有過半嗎好 我要求一定要這樣子才不會有關關相互的問題第三個是你的再申訴的管道的機制因為之前你們這個勞動部發生的很不幸的公務人員被霸凌然後致死案之後他遇到的問題就是第一次調查是沒有成立是第二次調查再調查輿論嘩然他才成立所以你們所謂的再申訴機制的救濟管道有沒有納入你們的草案裡面"},{"start":508.025,"end":519.677,"text":"當然救濟的做法這個當然這個都會在我們相關的法規裡面去做有納入嘛對不對我要求一定要這個再申訴的機制就是要納入裡面有嗎"},{"start":522.549,"end":547.161,"text":"細節的部分我想我們預告的時候會讓大家知道這個是方向性的問題有沒有納入再申訴我們有設計有設計對不對我要求就是要設計進去那這個部分是大家很期待的所以我希望你們這個修法的速度也是要加快你們草案也可以盡快在下個禮拜就是對外公告讓外界再給予你們更多的意見我們也希望盡快"},{"start":547.921,"end":565.855,"text":"那最後一個是你的就業安定基金現在這個濫用7000萬這個之前大家已經討論很多你現在有一個測定作為那這個測定作為它其實不是法律它就是你公布的一個做法不是我們是會修訂法規命令"},{"start":566.135,"end":581.952,"text":"好 那我就問你你現在所有的策進作為是不是通通都可以入法你是選擇性的我看你有一些有有要修訂在你的就業安定基金收支保管及運用辦法但有一些其實是沒有你並不是全面性的入法"},{"start":582.458,"end":608.932,"text":"有一些會是行政規則但也有一些用法規命令我是希望你們回去再研議因為這次的整個救安基金所暴露的這些問題代表我們過去在管理跟運作上的確不夠嚴謹那既然你們要入法你如果覺得你這六項策進作為都是很到位而且很重要的你應該要研議每一項都在你的運用辦法裡面就是要加進去就是"},{"start":609.492,"end":626.496,"text":"你應該讓他法治化以免現在是紅部長覺得這個很重要下一次以後可能不知道換哪一位部長上來覺得不重要他就可以做這個該遵守或不遵守他其實是沒有一個法令的要求的這個我希望你們回去你們再解釋這個測定做我們已經在進行中了"},{"start":628.937,"end":652.943,"text":"那對於規範的形式上面當然我們也可以再做一些思考好你們再回去研議好不好我要求的就是說希望這整個可以是更嚴謹的其實我們是把它修進我們的法規命令裡面好很好那你們就是整個你們再給我一份報告就是哪一些是修法規命令哪一些是修到你的運用辦法我希望看到的是你整個是一個很嚴謹的做法好不好好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":632,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時26分）好，謝謝主席，我們有請洪部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝王委員。"],["王委員育敏：部長，勞工高喊還我七天假，你之前也去參加過他們的活動，對不對？有沒有去參加過？"],["洪部長申翰：七天假嗎？"],["王委員育敏：對，這是他們的訴求，我記得有一次你有去參加過，你自己都忘記了嗎？有沒有？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是去年……"],["王委員育敏：你有代表民進黨去參加過嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：是去接受陳情。"],["王委員育敏：對，是接受陳情。"],["洪部長申翰：去接受訴求。"],["王委員育敏：所以你完全知道勞工的訴求嘛！在內政委員會也排了國定假日恢復七天假的這個議案，那內政部部長公然的反對，他是不贊成，甚至說這不是真正的議題，內政部部長反對還給勞工七天假，請問勞動部部長，你是支持還是反對？"],["洪部長申翰：跟王委員說明，第一個……"],["王委員育敏：你只要直接回答是支持或反對就好了，這是一個立場的表態。"],["洪部長申翰：國定假日法規的主管機關是內政部，當然從勞動部的立場來講，我們認為國定假日調整的這個議題如果可以在一致性跟公平性的原則下面做討論的話，我們覺得有正向討論的空間。"],["王委員育敏：你的回答很模糊，你說有正向討論的空間，這代表你是支持嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們覺得有正向討論的空間。"],["王委員育敏：你不敢講出「支持」兩個字，洪部長，你是勞動部部長欸！"],["洪部長申翰：這個法規的主責是在……"],["王委員育敏：勞動部部長站在全國千萬勞工的立場，然後支持他們，還給他們七天假，這件事情有這麼困難嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：王委員，我還是要說，這一個法規的主管是在內政部……"],["王委員育敏：當然啦！我是要問勞動部部長，你是贊成還是反對？"],["洪部長申翰：對，我們覺得有正向討論的空間。"],["王委員育敏：那是支持喔！我可以這樣講嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們覺得有正向討論的空間。"],["王委員育敏：你怎麼一直在重複？"],["洪部長申翰：因為你的問題一直重複啊！"],["王委員育敏：我要你回答支持或反對，這麼簡單的問題，我們的部長竟然回答不出來，還是你根本就不敢回答？你不敢講支持，你也不敢講反對。"],["洪部長申翰：我很清楚的說了，我們勞動部認為有正向討論的空間。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我就解讀說洪申翰支持還給勞工七天假。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，在我們做政策討論的時候，我認為都應該在語意上面可以更精準。"],["王委員育敏：要明確啊！"],["洪部長申翰：我自己希望政策的討論要語意精準，然後儘量不去做各種簡化的詮釋。"],["王委員育敏：那我說洪申翰反對還給勞工七天假。"],["洪部長申翰：這個一樣也是不精準的簡化的詮釋。"],["王委員育敏：部長，其實你這樣子讓人家還蠻失望的，大家說你從基層上來，你最了解勞工的心聲，結果在這種應該要表態的立場上面，你還是用一種模糊以對的方式，不敢完全的表達自己的立場、站穩自己的立場，如果勞動部部長都不敢站穩自己的立場，內政部反對，請問在行政院團隊裡面有哪一個內閣成員是支持還給勞工七天假的？當勞動部都不敢幫勞工發聲，那請問勞工要依靠誰？為什麼我們歷任的勞動部部長都是往資方靠攏呢？在當時說換你上來會比較好，因為你是從基層上來的，所以最理解勞工，我看也沒有這樣子啊！在你該表態的時候，你現在是不是當了官之後也不太敢表態了，還要看上意，還是你要看內政部的臉色？因為內政部部長已經不同意了，你就不敢站在勞動部部長立場大聲的說，我跟他立場不一樣，我認為應該再還給勞工7天假？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，勞動部也是大的執政團隊一員，該表達的事情我們會表達，但這個議題的法規主管單位是內政部。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，我在問部長的意見。"],["洪部長申翰：我們有我們的態度，我們的態度就是覺得這個議題有正向討論的空間。"],["王委員育敏：那就是要增加7天假嘛！應該可以下這樣的標，你不反對吧？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我覺得……"],["王委員育敏：正向討論的空間是什麼？就是你支持嘛，是不是？"],["洪部長申翰：我們覺得這個議題有討論的空間。"],["王委員育敏：好，那就是你支持！我要讓你看一下數據，我們現在的年總工時其實是不降反升，近5年來從108年到現在呈現的幅度，本來有跌到谷底了，就是一年不到2,000個，去年又回升到2,030個，在這樣的情況底下，我們勞工面對工時過長的情況，其實是沒有真正改善的。所以如果可以多給他們這7天假，我想是會有效地降低他的年總工時，這個是數學問題，一看就知道。而你看到我們與日、韓的特休日比較，我們對於新進勞工現在給的休假天數是比較少的，日本在第一年的時候是10天，韓國是15天，他們其實都很高，我們是到後面年資的時候，也就是你的年資可能超過十幾年的時候才會往上加。所以對於比較年輕的勞工來講，他現在面臨到的情況就是工時長、國定假日少，特休日數在第一年相對日、韓來講也是比較低的。","所以勞工團體才會提出來希望可以多增加國定假日的7天假，在這件事情上面，我希望部長真的要站穩你的立場，因為你搖擺的時候，勞工的訴求就不可能達成，連部長都不挺、都不支持，你的態度都不明確，這個是不會有答案的。","接下來我要講的是防治霸凌專章，對於保護勞工也是非常重要，我要問的是你們的草案預計什麼時候對外公告？"],["洪部長申翰：我們的草案目前其實已經在最後的收尾階段，我們也希望能夠儘快的把它預告出來，然後能夠在這個會期送到立法院。"],["王委員育敏：什麼時候要預告？有沒有一個期程？"],["洪部長申翰：因為最後有些條文我們還在做相關的研修。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，這一週會對外預告嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：可能沒有辦法到這一週那麼快。"],["王委員育敏：那下週呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們會儘快。"],["王委員育敏：是不是可以下週就對外預告你們的草案內容？"],["洪部長申翰：我也希望儘快。"],["王委員育敏：我希望下週就可以預告，這其中有幾個部分我覺得很重要的，我希望在你們的草案裡面要去訂得更完整，一個就是申訴機制，你現在有沒有要求一定規模的企業要建立申訴管道，比照性工法？"],["洪部長申翰：現在應該是往這個方向，就是在申訴、調查，包括這些相關的……"],["王委員育敏：你們現在初步的草案是多少規模要建立申訴管道？"],["洪部長申翰：我們是有一定規模的企業的要求。"],["王委員育敏：比照性工法嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：但是詳細的內容，等到我們預告的時候再讓委員這邊知道。"],["王委員育敏：你們現在應該有大概的方向，是比照性工法嗎？是30人嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：有一定規模的企業，是比照性工法的概念。"],["王委員育敏：比照性工法，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：因為這個法規大家的討論都會去參考性工法的概念。"],["王委員育敏：另外一個是霸凌的調查應該要透明化，你們現在外部委員占的比例有沒有要求要多少？"],["洪部長申翰：有。"],["王委員育敏：我要求至少要半數。"],["洪部長申翰：我想現在大家都認為外部委員是很重要的。"],["王委員育敏：所以會過半，對不對？在你們的草案裡面有沒有過半？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["王委員育敏：好，我要求一定要這樣子才不會有官官相護的問題。第三個是再申訴管道的機制，因為之前勞動部發生很不幸的公務人員被霸凌致死案之後，他遇到的問題就是第一次調查是沒有成立的，是輿論譁然，第二次再調查才成立，所以所謂的再申訴機制的救濟管道有沒有納入你們的草案裡面？"],["洪部長申翰：當然，救濟的作法都會在我們相關的法規裡面去做修訂。"],["王委員育敏：有納入，對不對？我要求一定要有再申訴的機制，也就是要納入裡面，有嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，細節的部分我們在預告的時候會讓大家知道，但是關於申訴……"],["王委員育敏：這個是方向性的問題，有沒有納入再申訴機制？有或沒有？"],["洪部長申翰：我們有設計。"],["王委員育敏：有設計，對不對？我要求要設計進去，這個部分是大家很期待的，所以我希望你們修法的速度也是要加快，你們的草案也可以儘快在下個禮拜對外公告，讓外界再給予你們更多的意見，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：我們也希望儘快。"],["王委員育敏：最後一個是就業安定基金濫用7,000萬，之前大家已經討論很多，你現在有一個策進作為，這個策進作為其實不是法令，只是你公布的一個作法。"],["洪部長申翰：不是，我們會修訂法規命令。"],["王委員育敏：好，那我問你，你現在所有的策進作為是不是統統都可以入法？你是選擇性的，我看你有一些有要修訂在就業安定基金收支保管及運用辦法，但有一些其實是沒有的，你並不是全面性的入法。"],["洪部長申翰：有一些會是行政規則，但也有一些用法規命令。"],["王委員育敏：我希望你們回去再研議，因為這一次整個就安基金所暴露的這些問題，代表我們過去在管理跟運作上的確不夠嚴謹。既然你們要入法，你如果覺得這六項策進作為都是很到位，而且很重要的，你應該要研議每一項都要加進去你的運用辦法裡面，你應該讓它法制化，以免現在是洪部長覺得這個很重要，下一次、以後可能不知道換哪一位部長上來覺得不重要，他就可以該遵守或不遵守，其實是沒有一個法令的要求，我希望你們回去再檢視。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，這個策進作為我們已經在進行中了，對於規範的形式上面，當然我們也可以再做一些思考。"],["王委員育敏：好，你們再回去研議，好不好？我要求整個可以是更嚴謹的。"],["洪部長申翰：但有部分其實我們是把它修進我們的法規命令裡面。"],["王委員育敏：很好，你們再給我一份報告，哪一些是修入法規命令，哪一些是修入運用辦法，我希望看到的是整個是一個很嚴謹的作法，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：好，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","我們另作宣告：剛剛有說盧縣一委員詢答完之後，我們就休息10分鐘，因為剛剛王委員和蘇委員的協商結果是等蘇召委詢答結束完之後，我們再休息，所以在這邊作這樣的宣告，請各位體諒一下。兩位時間一到，我們就消音。","請盧委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案 19案；二、邀請\n勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算關於勞動部主管部分","agenda_id":"1142901_00005"}}},{"id":"159340","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159340","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8cbb8728d972367c26ce92bacf16b99bf8962b2f3400241f6e3cda55e1e93cba55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"10:25:57 - 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顧部長國務卿 顧部長是 黃國民好部長好"},{"start":13.262,"end":39.775,"text":"有關於賴慶德總統在任內這四年期的國防總監討在3月18號日公布第一次強調建構多域的巨上任性防衛的作戰準備的方向建構地面海上空中太空及網路等多重空間領域的防禦體系但共今從各基地"},{"start":41.115,"end":69.333,"text":"前推火箭军陆航直升机也常态部署在第一线就是要加速游训转战让国军来不及应对请问国军的预警的时间是否缩短那我再请教部长你即刻回答目前针对共军犯台我们的预警的时间大概多少明确的讲清楚"},{"start":71.52,"end":99.202,"text":"我個人覺得我們對於這個預警時間的這個縮短我們可以這樣子來回答但是我們認為是要準備多久的在做這個作戰的準備這個時間我認為這個涉及機密我們不宜在這裡做回答不是 現在好 涉及機密但是你可以你可以大概縮短的大概幾分"},{"start":100.563,"end":124.879,"text":"因為現在是在四年四年期的國防的總檢討那既然現在已經是一個非常時期由訓轉戰的一個問題了所以你們應該要非常的明確我們國防的防衛的能力及我們大概預警準備的時間大概多少"},{"start":126.18,"end":140.214,"text":"我只能這樣跟委員報告,這樣子好了,就是說我們會有一個關鍵預警徵候的一個判斷表,那我們會將我們認為他這個所謂的游訓長,就是說他從一個灰色地帶的起擾,"},{"start":141.014,"end":168.074,"text":"然後它突然轉變成可能全面禁飯的模式或封鎖的模式那這些關鍵疫情的針口我們都會把它做一個分析但是詳細我沒有辦法跟委員做說明那麼這樣子的關鍵疫情針口我們把它分成低的、中的、高的那如果到達了中或高的時候我們就會進行所謂的二級加強戒備或一級加強戒備那到達了一級加強戒備之後我們就這個時候再觀察"},{"start":170.516,"end":183.002,"text":"他有可能是不是會採取這個行動那這個的時候會進入到我們就要跟總統進行報告然後再來我們要先動"},{"start":185.373,"end":214.012,"text":"那我們不能夠等到他成真了我們才動這個來不及我們主要的目的是在說明這一點好 部長那這一詳細的狀況要形容我們要你現在還是沒有辦法大概的一個時間因為現在共軍的操員已經是常態化甚至有些是無意警化那對台灣來講我們擔心的是一種麻痹的狀況本身提醒還是必須要警示"},{"start":215.813,"end":222,"text":"中共由遜轉戰的可能性所以我們就是因為不想麻痺所以我們要時時的警惕自己也警惕國人當然我們現在是要更警惕"},{"start":231.289,"end":256.602,"text":"本席認為未來的戰場除了傳統的陸海空更涵蓋太空網路及電池等環境請問共青郵訊轉戰落成症的話要以武力翻台有哪些徵兆待會你回答我一下那另外就是國際應該強化對共青聯合戰備警訊的情報收集的判斷並加強後備的"},{"start":260.625,"end":274.104,"text":"後備動員的加速國青應加強收集的能量並共青郵訊轉戰可能納入希望可能納入的漢光遠襲有沒有可能"},{"start":276.235,"end":304.253,"text":"剛您講的這些都是徵兆跟焊光演習對對對 我們這些徵兆的這個判斷都會納入徵兆的判斷然後做相對的應對我們都會納入這個焊光來我們從高階圖上兵推一直到這個電腦輔助所演習一直到實名驗證我們都會納入這些響電這樣子然後來進一步做所以希望能夠納入焊光演習"},{"start":305.274,"end":327.209,"text":"那國進必須思考包含這個低軌的衛星衛星的徵兆這個通信的太空領域對戰場經營和戰爭發展的影響能夠思考這樣的一個問題所在必須你要提醒國防那關於這個四年這個"},{"start":328.69,"end":357.037,"text":"四連旗國防的總檢討屬於目前來講是屬於原則性的報告實際上要怎麼做還要由各交給機關部門執行所以今天很難得得知具體作為但其實從內容概要可能要看出有些哪部分雖然是我國確實要面對的問題但有些部分過於一廂情願有些是過於過度與理想化"},{"start":357.617,"end":368.064,"text":"那你看是不是有這樣的一個問題所在您是說有沒有過於一廂情願或過於理想化這個部分對"},{"start":370.324,"end":396.014,"text":"我想我們四年期的廣場檢討就如剛剛報告的我們對於這個有相關的這個區域情勢的判斷也有對於共軍他可能採取的行動我們做了一些判斷之後我們採取的一些比較新的一些做法那剛剛你也提到了我們有"},{"start":396.854,"end":413.526,"text":"提出來這個多域拒止任性防衛的這個概念那我們會根據這些換入到我們的聯合作戰行動的關鍵要項裡面然後我們會利用各種不同的這個兵推跟演訓來加以驗證所以我們會不斷地來檢討每年都來檢討我們的依據敵情的這個狀況你說的對好"},{"start":421.912,"end":438.813,"text":"那為什麼我會提出這個問題來第一個第一章的內容概要看得出寫上的是基於忍戰的思維難以擺脫民主陣營和極權陣營的對抗的想法但是目前國際局勢更多的是"},{"start":440.915,"end":455.706,"text":"競爭合作的關係所以從陣營或兩旗對抗角度來看書寫國防指導原則可能會把國際局勢的過度單純化所以本席認為過於理想化"},{"start":456.807,"end":470.292,"text":"平時可以有所作為 但台灣是海島暫時全島皆為前線 極可能遭到封鎖暫時如何可能與全球供應鏈接軌所以這個就是一個問題所在另外 主席再給我一分鐘時間"},{"start":478.956,"end":495.407,"text":"另外就是關於國防高層是否有所作為不當不當的行為國防院高層是否有所不當的行為那這邊有一份這個裡面一個職員的一個研究員的一個陳情書"},{"start":500.832,"end":515.385,"text":"請問一下前段時間是否收到國防院一位理子組長的陳情是關於部分研究員橫跨兩個以上智庫理子高層人員乃持續佔用辦公室和"},{"start":516.105,"end":531.639,"text":"植物宿舍以及離子高層將國防院所屬研究院辦理停止留心帶至國防部為己用那這個部分即使沒有違法當然對於國防院"},{"start":532.259,"end":550.714,"text":"作為研究單位的獨立性及職場的規範產生了不利的影響所以這個部分請問一下我們希望能夠做到真正獨立公正專業部長知不知道這個事情那如何懲處未來要不要清查我想先請陳平次回答"},{"start":552.182,"end":564.154,"text":"是 跟我們報告 這個是屬於國防院內部管理的問題我們已經責成他們成立一個調查委員會有沒有七上滿下的問題現在都在調查當中調查什麼時候會請他們立刻調查 然後調查完畢那什麼時候回報很快的能夠提供給我們國防部什麼時候回報"},{"start":574.999,"end":588.685,"text":"這個事情都已經一個國務院的研究院的陳情都非常講得非常清楚而且你們現在有沒有欺上瞞下而且你們現在還是一概彌彰所以麻煩你們盡速回報什麼時候給我向委員報告我們盡快請國防院完成調查兩個禮拜內向委員做報告說明好 以上 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":356,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（10時25分）有請顧部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：黃委員好。"],["黃委員仁：部長好。有關於賴清德總統在任內的四年期國防總檢討，在3月18日公布，第一次強調建構多域拒止、韌性防衛的作戰整備的方向，建構地面、海上、空中、太空及網路等多重空間領域的防禦體系，但共機從各基地前推，火箭軍、陸航直升機也常態部署在第一線，就是要加速由訓轉戰，讓國軍來不及應對。請問國軍的預警時間是否會縮短？我再請教部長，你即刻回答，目前針對共軍犯臺，我們的預警時間大概是多少？明確的講清楚。"],["顧部長立雄：我個人覺得，我們對於預警時間的縮短可以這樣子來回答，但是關於要準備多久作戰整備的時間，我認為這個涉及機密，我們不宜在這裡回答。"],["黃委員仁：好，涉及機密，但是你大概可以縮短幾分？因為現在是在四年期國防總檢討，既然現在已經是一個非常時期，由訓轉戰的問題，你們應該要非常的明確，我們國防的防衛能力及預警準備的時間大概多久？"],["顧部長立雄：我只能這樣跟委員報告，我們會有一個關鍵預警徵候判斷表，我們會將我們認為的由訓轉戰，也就是從一個灰色地帶的襲擾突然轉變成可能全面進犯的模式或封鎖的模式，這些關鍵預警的徵候，我們都會把它做一個分析，但是詳細的部分我沒有辦法跟委員做說明，這樣子的關鍵預警徵候我們把它分成低的、中的、高的，如果到了中或高的時候，我們就會進行二級加強戒備或一級加強戒備，到達了一級加強戒備之後，我們在這個時候會觀察他們是不是有可能會採取行動，我們就要跟總統進行報告，我們要先動，不能夠等到它成真我們才動，這樣來不及，我們的主要目的是在說明這一點，詳細的狀況請容我們……"],["黃委員仁：部長，你現在還是沒有辦法說一個大概的時間，因為現在共軍的操演已經是常態化，甚至有些是無預警化，對臺灣來講，我們擔心的是一種麻痺的狀況，本席提醒，還是必須要警示中共由訓轉戰的可能性，所以本席認為未來……"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們就是因為不想麻痺，所以我們要時時的警惕自己，也警惕國人。"],["黃委員仁：當然我們現在要更警惕。本席認為未來的戰場除了傳統的陸、海、空，更涵蓋太空、網路及電磁等環境，請問共軍由訓轉戰若成真的話，要以武力犯臺有哪些徵兆？待會你回答我一下。","另外，國軍應該強化對共軍聯合戰備警巡的情報蒐集與判斷，並加強後備動員的速度，國軍應加強情蒐的能量，並將共軍由訓轉戰的可能性，希望納入漢光演習演練，有沒有可能？"],["顧部長立雄：剛剛您講的這些都是……"],["黃委員仁：徵兆跟漢光演習。"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們對於徵兆的判斷都會納入，對徵兆做判斷，然後做相對的應對，我們都會納入漢光，我們從高階幹部圖上兵推一直到電腦輔助演習一直到實兵演練，我們都會納入這些想定，然後進一步做驗證。"],["黃委員仁：所以希望能夠納入漢光演習，國軍必須思考，包含低軌衛星、衛星偵照、通信等太空領域對戰場經營和戰爭發展的影響，能夠思考這樣的一個問題所在，必須要提醒國防部。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["黃委員仁：關於四年期國防的總檢討，目前來講是屬於原則性的報告，實際上要怎麼做，還是要交給各機關部門執行，所以今天很難得知具體作為，但其實從內容概要可以看出有部分雖然是我國確實要面對的問題，但有些部分過於一廂情願，有些是過度理想化，你看是不是有這樣的一個問題所在？"],["顧部長立雄：您是說有沒有過於一廂情願或過於理想化這個部分？"],["黃委員仁：對。"],["顧部長立雄：我想我們四年期的國防總檢討就如剛剛報告的，我們對於相關區域的情勢判斷，也有對於共軍可能採取的行動，做了一些判斷之後，我們採取了一些比較新的作法，剛剛你也提到了，我們有提出來多域拒止、韌性防衛的概念，我們會根據這些放入到聯合作戰行動的關鍵要項裡面，然後利用各種不同的兵推跟演訓來加以驗證，所以我們會不斷檢討，依據敵情的狀況不斷檢討。"],["黃委員仁：好，你說的。為什麼我會提出這個問題，第一個，第一章內容概要看得出寫的是基於冷戰思維，難以擺脫民主陣營和極權陣營對抗的想法，但是目前國際趨勢更多的是競爭合作的關係。從陣營或兩極對抗角度來看，書寫國防指導原則可能會把國際情勢過度單純化。所以本席認為過於理想化，平時可以有所作為，但臺灣是海島，戰時全島皆為前線，極可能遭到封鎖，戰時如何能與全球供應鏈接軌，這就是問題所在。","主席再給我1分鐘時間。另外關於國防高層是否有所不當的行為，國防院高層是否有所不當的行為，這邊有一份是裡面研究員的陳情書，請問前段時間是否收到國防院一位離職組長的陳情？關於部分研究員橫跨兩個以上智庫，離職高層人員乃持續占用辦公室和職務宿舍，以及離職高層將國防院所屬研究員辦理留職停薪帶至國防部為己用？這個部分即使沒有違法，當然對於國防院作為研究單位的獨立性及職場規範產生了不利影響。所以針對這個部分請問一下，我們希望能夠做到真正獨立、公正、專業，部長知不知道這個事情？如何懲處？未來要不要清查？"],["顧部長立雄：我想先請整評司回答。"],["苗司長蕙芬：跟委員報告，這個是屬於國防院內部管理的問題，我們已經責成他們成立一個調查委員會……"],["黃委員仁：有沒有欺上瞞下的問題？"],["苗司長蕙芬：現在都在調查當中。"],["黃委員仁：調查，什麼時候？"],["苗司長蕙芬：會請他們立刻調查，然後調查完畢很快地能夠提供給我們……"],["黃委員仁：什麼時候回報？"],["苗司長蕙芬：我們會希望他們儘快回報。"],["黃委員仁：這個事情都已經……一個國防院研究員的陳情都講得非常清楚，你們現在有沒有欺上瞞下還是欲蓋彌彰？麻煩你們儘速回報，什麼時候給我？"],["苗司長蕙芬：向委員報告，我們儘快請國防院完成調查，兩個禮拜內向委員做報告說明。"],["黃委員仁：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。","我們現在請陳永康委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}},{"id":"159338","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159338","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b83dda8a94a7489c8639fe1519e09d1f6f8962b2f3400241f679bf6ad6b7fd95895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:09:52 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謝謝主席先請我們調評師 市長還有我們勞保局局長市長還有局長"},{"start":27.059,"end":37.927,"text":"好 市長 局長 我想請問一下我們育嬰留職挺薪的補貼在110年7月以前全部是由救保基金來支應 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但是我們希望大家比較重視的針對受僱勞工育嬰留庭的部分居然部長都節目受訪結束之後就知道這個是錯的我覺得"},{"start":238.152,"end":262.419,"text":"因為部長是我們勞動部單位最高的主管機關啊因為你所說的話大家都信以為真而且非常重視那如果連我們最高主管單位主管說的話那居然有錯應該就馬上更正結果居然讓這幾天在網路謠言一直在發酵那所以造成我們民眾之間大家很多的恐慌啊"},{"start":263.119,"end":282.811,"text":"所以謝謝今天委員會給我這個機會我在這邊就是把它澄清清楚對我那天是有口誤對部長我也希望這個事情如果當然我們人都有可能犯錯我們都有可能說錯話但是知道錯應該盡快要澄清不然大家都會誤以為部長跟我們週一扣"},{"start":283.711,"end":310.001,"text":"這個名嘴好像刻意在節目上散播不時的謠言然後讓這個謠言一直在民間在網路上散播不是這樣子我那天主要是討論的事情是說這個預算的煽動會對於我們很多的尤其是生產有生育的家庭產生的衝擊跟影響那我希望那居然部長今天也針對收穫勞工預停留的部分確定我們都是沒有動沒有煽的吧"},{"start":312.47,"end":336.367,"text":"應該說我當時在說的部分主要是針對應該是要針對我心中在想的是產檢家跟陪產檢家好沒關係啊那就是說針對這部分是沒有動三的我們就事實來澄清只是希望以後當然如果真的說錯我們希望在第一時間趕快澄清不應該我們最高主管單位的主管說出的話沒有澄清之後讓這些謠言一直在網路散播"},{"start":337.318,"end":343.541,"text":"好那接下來不好意思部長我們請問一下先請我的調評師黃師長請問一下今年我們產檢價跟賠產檢價還是還有我們賠產價薪資補助在動山的部分是民眾黨團刪除了800萬嘛對不對"},{"start":363.422,"end":380.759,"text":"報告委員是刪除八百萬另外還有一些凍結對 刪除的部分是八百萬嘛是那它針對這刪除八百萬的部分它是在整個勞動條件及就業平等下還是針對我們產檢價 賠產價 賠產檢的部分"},{"start":386.465,"end":409.944,"text":"報告是在整個勞動條件及就業平等的向下但是因為撇開那個所謂的補助款的部分來說那勞動條件及就業平等的實際上我們在推動的一般的這個業務部分的預算也只有844萬那如果把這個800萬的三減全部放到業務費的那一塊的話那大概是全年都不能動"},{"start":410.905,"end":413.989,"text":"所以我剛剛會先講說產檢價還有賠產檢 賠產價這部分其實我們整個項目3.8百萬民眾黨針對這部分是針對整個勞動條件"},{"start":425.72,"end":452.749,"text":"及就業平等的業務並不是單就針對產檢價賠產檢跟賠產價這部分對不對你可以從你的這張圖上面可以很清楚的看到我要補充兩點第一點是就像我說的刪除了八百萬但同時也凍結了將近兩千萬然後在這張圖上面你可以看到其實在產檢價跟賠產檢價的補助的那個項目裡面幾乎佔了這一整大項的九成"},{"start":453.909,"end":470.814,"text":"所以三八百萬跟動兩千萬是一定會影響到產檢價跟賠產檢價的這個補貼的發放的這是一定會影響的好所以我們現在就是你們其實數字是很清楚的因為我大象的就是我們先理清一下啦就是"},{"start":473.104,"end":490.593,"text":"刪除這800萬他是針對整個勞動條件及就業平等這個業務的大象並不是單就針對產檢價 賠產檢價跟賠產價沒有錯但這個獎補助站裡面佔了非常非常大的比例你可以看到我的意思說不是針對性嘛那只是說這個整個項目的800萬是由我們"},{"start":495.375,"end":521.404,"text":"勞動部這邊去做調整但是並不是要針對我們這個產檢價的部分去做刪除對不對但是在這個大項上面如果要刪800還要動2000這個是一定會影響到產檢價和賠產檢價這個項目的在數字上面是很清楚的好那我們我們整個勞動條件及就業平等業務其實它這個項目齁大概是總經費大概是1億嘛"},{"start":522.622,"end":551.277,"text":"剛才九千七百多九千多嘛九千七百多就大概一億嘛那所以基本上我們並不是針對新手父母這個產檢價的部分那當然部長剛剛講的我們也了解但是我們今天要講的就是說我們這一億裡面刪除的八百萬並不是針對我們這一部分而是由勞動部裡面自己去做調整所以部長你的意思是說這九千七百多萬裡面"},{"start":553.096,"end":572.131,"text":"這刪除了800萬,你是針對這一部分來做刪除是嗎?這個跟委員說明,刪除了800,動了2000,三家動,其實佔這一整項將近要三成那剛剛可以看到產檢家、培診檢家相關的補助,其實佔了這一整項的九成"},{"start":573.171,"end":595.535,"text":"所以這三根洞是影響一定會影響到產檢家跟陪產檢家的在數字上面其實我們就可以看出來了對沒關係所以重點在勞動條件集就會評等裡面這九千七百多萬刪了八百萬但是這八百萬是勞動兩千啊然後但是凍結的部分是因為希望你們提出計劃加以改善就解凍了嘛"},{"start":595.865,"end":614.31,"text":"但是山跟洞這個洞的比例很高山加洞加起來相信三成對但是洞是可以解洞的只是說希望我們針對沒有做好的地方去做加以改善好那沒關係那一個重點我們之前針對我們產檢價薪資賠產檢賠產價這個薪資補助我們在112年的時候也發生過預算不足那請問師長那時候預算不足我們是怎麼來處理的"},{"start":625.928,"end":653.484,"text":"報告委員當初那一年的話因為主計總署的估算跟我們的估算他的數字上面編的比較少所以當年的話金額不足金額不足的話到了發現錢會不夠的時候那我們只好先向主計總署去爭取看二倍金能不能有但是那時候回覆是說沒有錢那我們就自己要想像一下好沒關係我講比較快啦直接是不是後來我們直接"},{"start":654.304,"end":675.452,"text":"跟救保基金短期周轉那個部分的話是確實有跟救保基金當時做一個短期周轉但是要付利息對 所以我們有看過這個公文就是說如果這部分真的沒有或者不夠的時候是可以由救保基金來周轉而且這部分也曾經過有這個案例嘛 對不對"},{"start":676.772,"end":705.972,"text":"我想要跟你說過去有這個案例但是其實那時候立法院的預算中心也針對當時的案例要求勞動部要妥慎檢討第二個這樣子周轉的做法它並不是一個預算使用的最正軌的方式因為它的前提也要包括我們的基金監理會要能夠同意同時也要在隔年的預算要能夠編得出來經過立法院的同意這裡面是有很多"},{"start":706.112,"end":726.827,"text":"不確定性的所以我不能夠說只要過去有過這樣周轉的案例現在就想怎麼刪就怎麼刪反正不夠你就去借錢就是不對的並不是這樣所以我的意思說只是說如果真的不夠我們是有這個是其中一個方法甚至像剛剛吉他委員也有提過"},{"start":727.467,"end":746.468,"text":"如果真的自然難行我們也可以用追加預算只要提出合理性真的有需求我們是可以追加預算我說這都是其中的方法我們就是因為覺得我們爭取預算是有合理性所以之前才提出復議案很希望大院能夠同意這個復議案來重新討論這裡面可能會在執行裡面會遇到的困難"},{"start":747.469,"end":758.68,"text":"所以有這個有這個案例的我們並不能說只要有過去有周轉的例子所以我現在想怎麼編想怎麼刪反正夠或不夠都無所謂反正到時候去借就這個當時預算中心也叫我們妥順檢討對部長就像我們剛剛講的其實剛剛針對我們"},{"start":766.448,"end":787.101,"text":"我們的項目裡面喔 刪了800萬 但是800萬是去做調整 但是我覺得現在 還有動2000 好動那都可以解動嘛 那我們行政院喔 我覺得現在我們因為預算喔 今年編的3兆多我們覺得行政院就像一個大胖子 那你今天"},{"start":788.417,"end":813.31,"text":"這麼肥胖我們希望你做個健康的方式去做調整做瘦身但是你應該是用健康的方式去做調整去做減肥啊可是並不是叫你把這個預算太多去做刪除你一定要用斷手斷腳的方式來減重啊我覺得應該有很多健康的方式不應該用這麼極端惡劣的方式去做這樣子的處理的方式圖案就像這張圖上面寫的刪除800"},{"start":815.871,"end":834.734,"text":"也有凍結20%將近2000萬其實在這張圖上面三根凍加起來將近是三成不是部長你也知道那個凍結的部分是為了監督政府針對很多預算執行上面沒有做得很完善的地方所以提出希望我們"},{"start":835.334,"end":857.565,"text":"部會把做不好的地方加以改善之後提出改善計畫我們就會馬上解凍嘛所以這個凍的部分是良善的並不是刻意去無納我們的預算讓我們政府沒有辦法執行要是說如果全部都不能影響的話那難道是我們在這個來問條件與就業平衡的業務裡面其他原本過去做的全部都要刪除全部都不能做這一樣是影響業務的執行啊"},{"start":859.486,"end":880.037,"text":"三減八百凍結將近百分之二十兩千這就是事實啊這就是會影響這個業務下面在這個勞動條件級就業平等業務下面的執行那因為時間的關係我是建議的像我們勞動條件級就業平等這三除八百萬其實有很多地方可以去做調整並不是一定要針對這個"},{"start":881.198,"end":887.06,"text":"大家都覺得很重要新手父母這個賠產價去解這個800萬去找有些地方真的是多餘的錢並不是要去找這個很重要我覺得像我們的預算的審核我們就像一個大胖子我們是減肥要瘦身要健康並不是要用斷手斷腳的方式來減肥"},{"start":902.566,"end":916.109,"text":"如果立法院覺得哪些部分真的有瘦身的必要或者是預算執行有問題其實要求我們要減少或者是合理的監督我覺得這都沒有問題可是現在我們遇到的狀況是先刪了以後你自己再去找"},{"start":917.699,"end":939.724,"text":"甚至這個找的過程裡面就是壞事因為產檢架跟陪產檢架的薪資補助就是占這一整大項裡面的最大的比例甚至是九成沒有我相信到我們大家今天在這邊我們都是平和理性如果有什麼東西自然難行我相信可以提出去隨時都可以做調整而且我們在整個大項目的"},{"start":941.265,"end":958.606,"text":"刪減動除並不是要針對重要的項目所以就像我講我們是為了要健康多餘花的錢我們去做調整我們監督政府審查預算但是並不是要你去刪除我們覺得非常重要要用到的錢所以這部分我希望我們大家都可以好好來討論因為這個項目在大廈的佔比例太大了我簡單讓兩兆"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":545,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時10分）好，謝謝主席。先請條平司司長，還有勞保局局長。"],["主席：請司長，還有局長。"],["涂委員權吉：司長、局長，我想請問一下，育嬰留職停薪的補貼，在110年7月以前全部由就保基金支應，對吧？"],["黃司長維琛：之前六成的部分都是就保基金支應。"],["涂委員權吉：後來在110年7月之後，因為政府加發20%，所以加發20%的部分是由政府公務預算支應，這沒有問題吧？"],["黃司長維琛：是。"],["涂委員權吉：當然，這是政府的德政，本席替新手父母表示感謝。","接下來想請問保險司司長。司長，114年度的總預算，勞動保險業務被刪減、凍結多少錢？"],["陳司長美女：大的勞動保險業務是凍60萬，另外……"],["涂委員權吉：對，就是這個大項「勞動保險業務」在委員會凍結60萬，我們委員會凍結60萬。"],["陳司長美女：對，另外就是01分支凍10億。"],["涂委員權吉：對，有一個凍10億，是民眾黨黨團針對「研議勞工保險財務及就業保險業務」1,200億裡面凍結10億嘛！"],["陳司長美女：是，是。"],["涂委員權吉：所以整體來講，針對「受僱勞工育嬰留職停薪津貼加給補助經費」這個科目並沒有凍結或者刪除，對不對？只有剛剛的項目有，其他都沒有嘛！"],["陳司長美女：是，是。"],["涂委員權吉：那不好意思，請教洪部長。"],["洪部長申翰：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：洪部長，剛剛我聽到兩位委員──陳菁徽委員和邱鎮軍委員都提到關於部長在「新聞放鞭炮」節目裡接受周玉蔻媒體人的訪問，好像有針對受僱勞工育嬰留職停薪津貼的部分說明，剛剛部長也承認是因為說錯、口誤……"],["洪部長申翰：口誤，對。"],["涂委員權吉：對嘛！就是針對有凍、刪的部分。"],["洪部長申翰：凍、刪是產檢假跟陪產檢假。"],["涂委員權吉：所以這部分是搞錯了，是口誤，剛剛我有聽到。"],["洪部長申翰：是口誤。"],["涂委員權吉：那我想請問部長，你是什麼時候知道自己在這部分是說錯的？"],["洪部長申翰：因為我最近真的開了太多育嬰留停的相關會議，所以當時在訪問的時候，可能下意識的講成育嬰留停，但是……"],["涂委員權吉：你是在我們委員剛剛詢問的時候，才知道接受周玉蔻訪問時說錯，還是……"],["洪部長申翰：不是，後來就知道了。"],["涂委員權吉：後來就知道？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["涂委員權吉：後來知道，怎麼沒有趕快立即澄清，而讓這個謠言在網路上一直發酵呢？"],["洪部長申翰：呃，因為它還是……呃，當然，今天很謝謝委員給我這個機會可以在這裡說明、澄清，當時被凍、刪的主要是產檢假跟陪產檢假，所以一樣還是會影響到新手爸媽的相關權益。"],["涂委員權吉：對，但大家比較重視的是受僱勞工育嬰留停的部分，既然部長在節目受訪結束之後，就知道這是錯的，因為部長是勞動單位的最高主管機關，你所說的話大家都會信以為真，而且非常重視，如果連最高主管單位主管說的話都有錯，那就應該馬上更正，結果居然讓這個謠言這幾天一直在網路上發酵，造成民眾很多的恐慌。"],["洪部長申翰：所以也謝謝委員會今天給我這個機會，讓我在這邊澄清清楚，對，我那天是有口誤。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，當然人都有可能犯錯，都有可能說錯話，但是知道錯就應該儘快澄清，不然大家會誤以為部長跟周玉蔻這個名嘴好像刻意在節目上散播不實謠言，然後讓這個謠言一直在民間、在網路上散播。"],["洪部長申翰：不是這樣子，我們那天主要討論的事情是預算的刪、凍，會對很多勞工，尤其是有生育的家庭產生衝擊跟影響，那我……"],["涂委員權吉：好，部長，今天針對受僱勞工育嬰留停的部分，應該確定我們是沒有凍、沒有刪的吧？針對這個……"],["洪部長申翰：應該說我當時在說的部分，主要是針對……應該是要針對……我心中在想的是產檢假跟陪產檢假……"],["涂委員權吉：好，沒關係啦！這部分是沒有凍、刪，我們就以事實來澄清，只是以後如果真的說錯，希望可以在第一時間趕快澄清，不應該最高主管單位的主管說出的話沒有澄清，而讓這些謠言一直在網路散播。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["涂委員權吉：接下來請教條平司黃司長。"],["黃司長維琛：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：請問司長，今年我們的產檢假、陪產檢假，還有陪產假薪資補助凍、刪的部分，是民眾黨黨團刪除了800萬，對不對？"],["黃司長維琛：報告委員，是刪除800萬，另外還有一些凍結，就是統凍的部分。"],["涂委員權吉：對，刪除的部分是800萬嘛？"],["黃司長維琛：是。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這刪除的800萬，是在整個「勞動條件及就業平等業務」項下，還是針對產檢假、陪產檢假及陪產假？"],["黃司長維琛：報告，是在整個「勞動條件及就業平等業務」項下，但是撇開所謂補助款的部分，勞動條件及就業平等實際上推動的一般業務的預算也只有844萬，如果把這個800萬的刪減全部放到業務費那一塊，大概全年都不能動了。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我剛剛會先講到產檢假、陪產檢假，還有陪產假的部分，其實整個項目刪減800萬，民眾黨針對的是整個勞動條件及就業平等業務，並不單單針對產檢假、陪產檢假及陪產假這部分，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，你可以從你的這張圖上清楚地看到，我要補充兩點，第一點，就像我說的，刪除了800萬，但同時也凍結將近2,000萬，然後在這張圖上你可以看到，在產檢假跟陪產檢假補助的那個項目裡，幾乎占了這一整個大項的九成，所以刪800萬跟凍2,000萬是一定會影響到產檢假跟陪產檢假補貼的發放，這是一定會影響的。"],["涂委員權吉：好，所以我們現在……"],["洪部長申翰：其實數字就很清楚，因為大項就是在中間那邊。"],["涂委員權吉：我們先釐清一下，刪除這800萬是針對整個「勞動條件及就業平等業務」的大項，並不是單針對產檢假、陪產檢假跟陪產假，這沒有錯吧？"],["洪部長申翰：但你可以看到，這個獎補助在裡面占了非常非常大的比例。"],["涂委員權吉：是，我的意思是說這不是針對性，只是這整個項目的800萬，是由勞動部去調整，但並不是針對產檢假的部分去做刪除，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：但是在這個大項上，如果刪800萬，還要凍2,000萬，是一定會影響到產檢假、陪產檢假這個項目，數字上面是很清楚的。"],["涂委員權吉：好，其實整個「勞動條件及就業平等業務」這個項目總經費大概是1億嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：九千七百多萬。"],["涂委員權吉：九千七百多萬，就大概1億，基本上，我們並不是針對新手父母的產檢假部分，當然部長剛剛講的我們也了解，但是今天我要講的是，這1億裡面刪除的800萬，並不是針對這一部分，而是由勞動部自己去調整，部長的意思是這九千七百多萬裡面刪除了800萬，你是針對這一部分來做刪除，是嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這個跟委員說明，刪了800、凍了2,000，刪加凍，其實占了這一整項將近三成，剛剛可以看到產檢加陪產檢加相關補助，其實也占了這一整項的九成，所以這個刪跟凍是一定會影響到產檢假跟陪產檢假的，這在數字上其實就可以看出來了。"],["涂委員權吉：對，沒關係，所以重點是勞動條件及就業平等的九千七百多萬刪了800萬，但是這800萬是勞動條件……"],["洪部長申翰：還凍2,000啊！將近2,000啊！"],["涂委員權吉：凍結的部分是希望你們提出計畫加以改善，然後就解凍了嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：這個凍的比例很高，刪加凍加起來將近三成。"],["涂委員權吉：對，但是凍結是可以解凍的嘛！只是希望你們針對沒有做好的地方去加以改善。好，沒關係，還有一個重點，就是之前針對產檢假、陪產檢假、陪產假薪資補助，我們在112年的時候也發生過預算不足，請問司長，你們那時候對預算不足是怎麼來處理的？"],["黃司長維琛：報告委員，當初在那一年，因為主計總處的估算跟我們的估算，他在數字上面編得比較少，所以當年的金額不足，後來發現錢會不夠的時候，我們只好先向主計總處去爭取看二備金能不能有，但是那時候的回復是說沒有錢，那我們就自己想辦法……"],["涂委員權吉：好，沒關係，我來講比較快啦！是不是後來我們直接跟就保基金短期周轉？"],["黃司長維琛：那個部分在當時確實有跟就保基金做一個短期周轉，但是要付利息。"],["涂委員權吉：對，我們有看過這個公文，就是如果這一部分真的沒有或者不夠的時候，是可以由就保基金來周轉，而且這部分也曾經有過這個案例，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我想要跟你說，過去有這個案例，但是其實那時候立法院的預算中心也針對當時的案例要求勞動部要妥慎檢討。第二個，像這樣周轉的作法，它並不是一個預算使用上最正軌的方式，因為它的前提也包括我們的基金監理會要能夠同意，同時也要在隔年的預算能夠編得出來，經過立法院的同意，這裡面是有很多不確定性的，所以我不能夠說，只要過去有過這樣周轉的案例，現在就想怎麼刪就怎麼刪，反正不夠，你就去借錢，這是不對的，並不是這樣。"],["涂委員權吉：好，部長，我懂你講的意思。我的意思只是說，如果真的不夠，這個是其中一個方法，甚至像剛剛其他委員也有提過，如果真的窒礙難行，我們也可以用追加預算，只要提出合理性，真的有需求，我們是可以追加預算，我是說這都是其中的方法。"],["洪部長申翰：涂委員，我們就是因為覺得我們爭取預算是有合理性，所以之前才提出覆議案，很希望大院能夠同意這個覆議案，來重新討論這部分可能會在執行裡面遇到的困難。我們並不會說只要在過去有周轉的例子，所以我現在想怎麼編、想怎麼刪，夠或不夠都無所謂，反正到時候去借就好了，並不是這樣，當時預算中心也叫我們妥慎檢討。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，就像我們剛剛講的，其實針對我們的項目裡面刪了800萬，這800萬是去做調整，但是我覺得現在……"],["洪部長申翰：還有凍2,000萬。"],["涂委員權吉：那都可以解凍嘛！那我覺得現在預算今年編了三兆多，我們覺得行政院就像一個大胖子，那你今天這麼肥胖，我們希望你用一個健康的方式去做調整、做瘦身，但是你應該是要用健康的方式去做調整、去減肥，並不是叫你因為這個預算太多而去做刪除，然後你一定要用斷手斷腳的方式來減重啊！我覺得應該有很多健康的方式，不應該用這麼極端、惡劣的方式去做這樣子的處理。"],["洪部長申翰：涂委員，就像這張圖上面寫的刪除800萬，也有凍結20%，將近2,000萬，其實在這張圖上面刪跟凍加起來將近是三成。"],["涂委員權吉：不是，部長，你也知道那個凍結的部分是為了監督政府，是針對很多預算在執行上面沒有做得很完善的地方，所以希望我們部會把做不好的地方加以改善，在提出改善計畫之後，我們就會馬上解凍，所以這個凍的部分是良善的，並不是刻意去阻撓我們的預算，讓我們政府沒有辦法執行啊！"],["洪部長申翰：涂委員，如果全部都不能影響的話，難道是我們在這個勞動條件及就業平等業務裡面，其他原本過去做的全部都要刪除、全部都不能做？這一樣是影響業務的執行啊！刪減800萬，凍結20%、將近2,000萬，這就是事實啊！這就是會影響在這個勞動條件及就業平等業務下面的執行。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，因為時間的關係，我是建議你，像我們勞動條件及就業平等這部分刪除800萬，其實有很多地方可以去做調整，並不是一定要針對這個大家都覺得很重要的新手父母陪產假薪資補助去減這800萬……"],["洪部長申翰：但是在那一大項裡面，這個部分有將近九成啊！"],["涂委員權吉：應該去找有些地方真的是多餘的錢，並不是要針對這個很重要的部分。我覺得像我們預算的審核，我們就像一個大胖子，是要減肥、要瘦身、要健康，並不是要用斷手斷腳的方式來減重。"],["洪部長申翰：如果立法院覺得哪些部分真的有瘦身的必要或者是預算執行有問題，其實要求我們要減少或者是合理的監督，我覺得這都沒有問題，可是現在我們遇到的狀況是先刪了以後你自己再去找，甚至在這個找的過程裡面，就是因為產檢假跟陪產檢假的薪資補助就是占這一整大項裡面最大的比例，甚至是九成，就是會影響到這個裡面的執行啊！"],["涂委員權吉：沒有，我相信我們大家今天在這邊都是平和、理性，如果有什麼部分窒礙難行，我相信可以提出，隨時都可以做調整，而且我們在整個大項目的刪減、凍結並不是要針對重要的項目。所以就像我講的，我們是為了要健康，對多餘花的錢我們去做調整，我們監督政府審查預算，但是並不是要你去刪除我們覺得非常重要、一定要用到的錢，所以對這部分我希望大家都可以好好來討論。"],["洪部長申翰：因為這個部分在這一大項裡面占的比例太大了！"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝。"],["主席：我儘量讓兩造說得更清楚，那時間也超過很多了。","我現在宣告一下，我們在盧縣一委員質詢完畢之後休息10分鐘。","好，接下來請王育敏委員來做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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我們會提出相關的這些因為我們已經經過一些我們有討論了那一些相關的一些綱要我們會提出來然後來跟各界來諮詢這樣子"},{"start":40.929,"end":64.026,"text":"因為軍審法 軍審相關的制度其實現在不僅是我們國會議員那一般民眾也會有一些想要釐清或者是藉由這種質詢的方式來去了解狀況我想說這個地方我想要請教一下如果是共諜案的話像現役軍人跟退役軍人會不會用不同的審判標準還是用同樣的審判標準"},{"start":64.907,"end":85.877,"text":"那軍中的文職人員那是屬於要給軍審制度還是非軍審制度他如果沒有軍人的身份的話沒有軍人的身份按照憲法的規定就不會受到軍事審判是不會 就是人民就不受軍事審判嘛這是憲法的規定那非 就是"},{"start":87.521,"end":94.728,"text":"軍人跟非軍人共犯的話那非軍人的部分也是交由一般司法機關只有軍人會受軍事審判"},{"start":95.757,"end":123.853,"text":"所有軍人受軍事審判那最近我們聽到說國防部的說法是說觸犯陸海空軍刑法第二篇第一章有關的軍事犯罪的話會接受軍事審判就職務上的犯罪職務上的犯罪那如果現役軍官他觸犯其他的國家安全的法規不是屬於第二篇第一章的軍事犯罪而是像是國家安全法或者是機密保護法反生動法國家勤工法這個是要接受軍事審判還是一般審判"},{"start":124.493,"end":152.296,"text":"他有可能會跟陸海工軍刑法第二篇的那一個違反效忠職責罪或違反他的應盡的這個執意職責罪的這個部分會有一部事實的關係那如果說他有一部事實是屬於這一個陸海工軍刑法第二篇的罪的話那就是一部事實就是有一部分的事實是國家國安法一部的事實是陸海工軍刑法第二篇的話那這個一部事實"},{"start":153.554,"end":178.636,"text":"連結到這個全部事實裡面的話就會認為應該用說收到軍事審判那如果單純的是違反國安法不涉及入海公經審法的第二篇的話他就回到一般的司法機關去審判這樣所以會有一部一部我們講一部跟全部關係那如果他一部事實是國安法但是他也有涉及到入海公經審法第二篇的時候"},{"start":179.056,"end":195.857,"text":"那現役軍人的身份 那就會歸到軍事審判來就是這樣 軍事審判會優先於其他的一般的只要他有涉及到這個第二篇的 亂共審判第二篇的了解 那主要是因為我們觀察到進來的很多共諜的案件"},{"start":197.558,"end":221.545,"text":"要嘛是用國家安全法來起訴要嘛就是貪污之罪條例那如果未來是違反類似條文但是沒有涉及陸海空軍的第二篇提倡的罪責就是你剛才講的那個方式去也還是歸司法機關歸司法機關那我們再拿一個案例我們再請教一下部長吸收軍人或者是拍攝投降影片"},{"start":222.369,"end":244.486,"text":"那就我們的了解 我們了解可能是錯誤的因為部長你是這邊 你是法律專家那可能這邊有其他的司法背景的人來請給我們如果有必要的話就請給部長這個相關的訊息那如果他們吸收券或拍攝投降影片那陸海空軍刑法有沒有明確的條文那這個東西過去是用國安法或者是貪污之罪來定那現在這個是用軍審"},{"start":246.648,"end":260.664,"text":"軍事審判的第二章你沒有部分就剛才你講的一部分我們入海公園刑法的24條現在在預告當中嗎那對敵人為效忠之表示那如果是現役軍人的話那就屬於會受軍事審判的範圍"},{"start":261.485,"end":282.057,"text":"OK 所以說未來現役軍人拍的投降影片就是現在還在對敵人為效忠之表示或不進行職責罪的話那就屬於賴公信法第二篇那他是如果是現役軍人的話那就是應該受軍事審判好 那所以說未來這個就可以用軍事審判的方式去處理就對了是 如果那個24條"},{"start":284.894,"end":312.68,"text":"對 他就是說就看他涉及的犯罪法條是不是落來的關係我們現在24條正在預告當中另外就是說最近除了軍人身份以外包含國家安全法 國家機密保護法反滲透法 勤工法這些上述法律的案件部長你覺得這些未來是不是要上升到法律層面然後去立法做一個國家專業法庭來去審理"},{"start":314.332,"end":333.879,"text":"您是說這個在一般的司法機關要對對對對就我們就君審貴君我們要問這個就是你的看法一般的司法機關要不要設這個專庭來處理這個部分我覺得這個部分是司法院的一個權責我可能不適宜幫他待會打呼"},{"start":334.319,"end":360.113,"text":"我們要請你待會兒答覆我們要聽你看在國家安全的看法需不需要您的看法這沒有對或錯所以我才只是因為我們也在修法當中我們跟省委員都有在一些跟國家安全相關的那我們是希望說要做這些事情的話它有它的必要性那我們現在已經有了這一個恢復精神的話那有必要要不要做這件事情你說在一般的司法機關要不要做國安專庭的問題是吧"},{"start":362.854,"end":388.426,"text":"在法律層面明定是不是要做國安專庭就你對司法的這些理解你的看法第一個其實就涉及到我們講內部事務分配的問題如果那個案件不夠多的話那麼在一般法院裡面的內部事務分配它會涉及到一些公平性的問題也就是說如果它是一個專庭它只審那個案件那個案件量不夠多的話那法官們之間他們就會"},{"start":389.608,"end":407.683,"text":"就會說那是不是這個勞役不均這樣第一個,第二個法官都會進行調動所以他的這個國安專庭的一個設置他可能培養他做了兩年三年之後或者甚至一年他可能就調動到其他的這個法院去所以他"},{"start":408.363,"end":431.715,"text":"要長期在一個位置專門辦的話事實上是不容易在過去的經驗上是這樣子跟委員報告我當年也在推動這個所謂的少年法庭跟少年法院那後來證明只有少年法院的一個設置才可以讓這個法官長期待在這個少年法院成為專辦少年事件的一個專業法官"},{"start":432.896,"end":457.84,"text":"因為你專庭的話他還是會有進行內部事務分配的問題還有調動的問題但是一旦成立少年法院之後他就會以這個為職制他就會長期的待在少年法院裡面這個專業性就比較容易養成不過我覺得這以上都是我個人意見這是基於過去我想我現在這個身份不宜幫司法院做過多的回答我剛剛講了強調純屬個人意見好 謝謝部長"},{"start":462.361,"end":491.149,"text":"部長我們再來針對這個國防出版品的這個分享的部分那這個我們盡快把它跟你請教現在我們台灣有編訂的是全國國防應變手冊那有提供電子版的免費下載那我很肯定因為這是推動全民防衛教育的第一步可是國防部最近也翻譯出版許多跟國防戰略全民防衛相關的書籍那比方說這一個Kobe的這個句子戰略這一本這一本我們也有協助來去翻譯"},{"start":492.089,"end":519.143,"text":"還有蕭美琴副總統也一直分享的這個抵抗作戰構想那我想請問說這些書局是不是可以開放這個民眾免費取得那現在國防部出版的書局主要還是用盈利的模式那比方說國家書店 武南書局那現在這個巨子戰略它的售價是400元那抵抗作戰構想大概售價是380元那我是說我認為啦"},{"start":520.184,"end":531.266,"text":"國防部已經使用國家的預算去翻譯了那出版這些書籍版權的費用那雖然已經算是支付了是不是要考量一些公共利益來去推動我們的全民國防不知道部長怎麼看"},{"start":532.255,"end":556.947,"text":"跟委員報告這涉及作權的問題就是說我們這個發行這個挹注之後呢我們跟這個有相關的作權人不管是翻譯者還是原來的這一個這個他本身的原作他都有涉及作權問題所以我們是跟他買要買2600冊然後買了2600冊以後呢我們將大部分的都是加"},{"start":557.567,"end":580.401,"text":"交給官兵然後加強官兵的這個資能不是盈利為主那其他的部分會有流通到市面但是如果放在網路上的話我想就會涉及到說你如果他一般都是只能夠看到摘要啦你如果要看到全文的話你如果能夠自由下載那這個就會涉及到侵害那個那個義子"},{"start":581.762,"end":606.247,"text":"譯者跟那個原作者的這個著作權的問題所以如果說是我們國安部自己發行的期刊等等像譬如說這個四年啟光總檢討這個當然沒有問題因為我們就讓大家自由一下我們不會主張著作權但是如果您講的這個有關於這個"},{"start":607.427,"end":613.274,"text":"目前翻譯的書籍我看版權是屬於公安部政務辦公室但是剛才部長提到的沒錯涉及援助授權限制所以說"},{"start":625.709,"end":641.521,"text":"如果可以的話 譬如說檢要的摘要或手冊那盡量不影響原作的版權的方式或者是使用公立圖書館的授權模式我想這些是我們在法律上可以允許的方向我們能做的 我們盡量去做那謝謝部長 那就時間到謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":317,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時14分）你好，我們請部長。"],["主席：有請部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，剛才王委員有提到相關配套的修法大概要一個月左右會提出修法的配套綱要，我們這樣理解是不是正確的？"],["顧部長立雄：對，我們會提出相關的這些……因為我們已經經過一些討論了，相關的一些綱要我們會提出來，然後來跟各界諮詢。"],["陳委員冠廷：軍審相關的制度其實現在不僅是我們國會議員，一般民眾也會有一些想要釐清，或者是藉由這種質詢的方式來去了解狀況，這個地方我想要請教一下，如果是共諜案的話，像現役軍人跟退役軍人會不會用不同的審判標準還是用同樣的審判標準？軍中的文職人員是歸屬於軍審制度還是非軍審制度，他如果沒有軍人的身分的話？"],["顧部長立雄：如果沒有軍人的身分，按照憲法的規定就不會受到軍事審判。"],["陳委員冠廷：人民就不受軍事審判嘛，這是憲法的規定。"],["顧部長立雄：對！軍人跟非軍人共犯的話，非軍人的部分也是交由一般司法機關，只有軍人會受軍事審判。"],["陳委員冠廷：最近我們聽到國防部的說法是，觸犯陸海空軍刑法第二編第一章有關的軍事犯罪的話會接受軍事審判。"],["顧部長立雄：就是職務上的犯罪。"],["陳委員冠廷：如果現役軍官觸犯其他國家安全的法規，不是屬於第二編第一章的軍事犯罪，而像是國家安全法或者是機密保護法、反滲透法、國家情工法等，這個要接受軍事審判還是一般審判？"],["顧部長立雄：他有可能會跟陸海空軍刑法第二編的違反效忠國家職責罪或違反職役職責罪的部分有一部事實的關係，如果他有一部事實是屬於陸海空軍刑法第二編的罪，就是有一部分的事實是國安法、有一部事實是陸海空軍刑法第二編，那這個一部事實連結到全部事實裡面的話，就應該受到軍事審判；如果單純違反國安法，不涉及陸海空軍刑法第二編的話，他就回到一般的司法機關去審判。所以我們講一部跟全部關係，如果他的一部事實是國安法，但是他也有涉及到陸海空軍刑法第二編的時候，那現役軍人的身分就會歸到軍事審判來。"],["陳委員冠廷：就是這樣，軍事審判會優先於其他的、一般的。"],["顧部長立雄：只要他有涉及到陸海空軍刑法第二編。"],["陳委員冠廷：了解。主要是因為我們觀察到近來的很多共諜案件，有的是用國家安全法來起訴、有的就是貪污治罪條例，如果未來違反類似條文，但是沒有涉及陸海空軍刑法第二編第一章的罪責，就是你剛才講的那個方式去……"],["顧部長立雄：也還是歸司法機關、一般司法機關。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK。那我再拿一個案例請教部長，關於吸收軍人或者拍攝投降影片，就我們的了解，不過我們的了解可能是錯誤的，因為部長你是法律專家，這邊也有其他的司法背景的，如果有必要的話請給部長相關的訊息，如果他們吸收軍人或拍攝投降影片，那陸海空軍刑法有沒有明確的條文？這個東西過去是用國安法或者是貪污治罪來定，現在這個是用軍事審判的第二章有沒有部分……就是剛才你講的一部還是……"],["顧部長立雄：我們陸海空軍刑法第二十四條現在在預告當中，關於對敵人為效忠之表示，如果是現役軍人的話就屬於受軍事審判的部分。"],["陳委員冠廷：OK，所以未來現役軍人拍攝投降影片現在還在公告，我們就用……"],["顧部長立雄：對敵人為效忠之表示、不盡其職責罪屬於陸海空軍刑法第二編，如果是現役軍人的話就應該受軍事審判。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以未來這個就可以用軍事審判的方式去處理？"],["顧部長立雄：是，如果第二十四條……對，就看他涉及的犯罪法條是不是陸海空軍刑法，我們現在第二十四條正在預告當中。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。另外，最近除了軍人身分以外，包含國家安全法、國家機密保護法、反滲透法、情工法等上述法律案件，部長，你覺得這些未來是不是要上升到法律層面、立法以國家專業法庭審理？"],["顧部長立雄：您是說在一般司法機關要不要……"],["陳委員冠廷：對！軍審歸軍審，我現在要問你的看法，我想聽聽看部長的。"],["顧部長立雄：一般的司法機關要不要設專庭來處理，我覺得這個部分是司法院的權責，我可能不適宜幫他代為答復。"],["陳委員冠廷：我沒有要請你代為答復，我要聽你站在國家安全的看法認為需不需要，這沒有對或錯，因為我們也在修法當中，我們跟沈委員都有進行一些跟國家安全相關的，我們希望要做這些事情的話有其必要性，我們現在已經有要恢復軍審的話，那有必要做這件事情？"],["顧部長立雄：您說在一般的司法機關要不要設國安專庭的問題，是不是？"],["陳委員冠廷：對，在法律層面是不是要做國安專庭，就你對司法的這些理解、你的看法？"],["顧部長立雄：第一個，其實這就涉及到我們講內部事務分配的問題，如果那個案件不夠多，在一般法院裡面的內部事務分配會涉及到一些公平性的問題，如果一個專庭只審那個案件，而那個案件量不夠多的話，法官們之間就會勞逸不均，這是第一個。","第二個，法官都會進行調動，所以關於國安專庭的設置，可能培養他做了兩年、三年之後，或者甚至一年，他可能就調動到其他的法院，所以他要長期在一個位置上專門辦的話，事實上是不容易，在過去的經驗上是這樣子。跟委員報告，我當年也在推動所謂的少年法庭跟少年法院，後來證明只有少年法院的設置才可以讓這個法官長期待在少年法院、成為專辦少年事件的專業法官，因為如果是專庭的話，它還是會有內部事務分配的問題、還有調動的問題，但是一旦成立少年法院之後，他就會以這個為職志，他就會長期待在少年法院裡面，這個專業性就比較容易養成。","不過我覺得以上都是我基於過去的個人見解，我想我現在這個身分不宜幫司法院做過多的回答，我剛剛講的，強調純屬個人意見！"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長。部長，我們再來針對國防出版品資源共享的部分，我儘快跟你請教，現在我們臺灣有編訂的是全民國防應變手冊，也有提供電子版的免費下載，我很肯定，因為這是推動全民防衛教育的第一步，可是國防部最近也翻譯出版許多跟國防戰略、全民防衛相關的書籍，比方說Colby的「拒止戰略」這一本，我們也有協助翻譯，還有蕭美琴副總統也一直分享的抵抗作戰構想，我想請問這些書籍是不是可以開放民眾免費取得？現在國防部出版的書籍主要還是用盈利的模式，比方說國家書店、五南書局，現在「拒止戰略」的售價是400元，「抵抗作戰構想」售價是380元，我認為國防部已經使用國家的預算去翻譯了，那出版這些書籍的版權費用，納稅人已經算是支付了，是不是要考量一些公共利益來推動我們的全民國防，不知道部長怎麼看？"],["顧部長立雄：跟委員報告，這涉及著作權的問題，我們發行譯著之後，我們跟相關的著作權人，不管是翻譯者還是本身的原作都有涉及著作權問題，所以我們是跟他買，要買2,600冊，買了2,600冊以後，我們大部分的都是交給官兵，加強官兵的職能，不是以盈利為主，其他的部分會流通到市面，但是如果放在網路上的話，我想就會涉及到……它一般都是只能夠看到摘要，如果要看到全文、如果能夠自由下載，這就會涉及到侵害譯者跟原作者著作權的問題，所以如果說是國防部自己發行的期刊等等，比如說四年期國防總檢討這個當然沒有問題，我們就讓他自由下載，我們不會主張著作權，但是如果是您講的這個，有關於他寫的The 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軍演"},{"start":37.722,"end":59.835,"text":"那其實在那一個禮拜我們看了一下資料2月19號共軍在台海進行聯合戰備警巡大概每一週都一次但是21號在第二島鏈塔斯曼海域也就是澳洲跟紐西蘭中間他們在那邊也是進行實戰軍演而且真的是在澳洲的大門口開了炮2月25號"},{"start":62.116,"end":80.589,"text":"共軍派出南部軍區的一個海軍支隊來到越南跟菲律賓之間的南海進行實彈演練那26號就突然間在高雄屏東外海40海里大概74公里的地方無預警的突然宣布了一個射擊訓練的場域等等"},{"start":81.687,"end":104.683,"text":"那這是2月份大概從19號到26號發生的事情昨天3月18號不知道是約好的還是國際的共識之前那個操演是讓世界各國都予以譴責支持台海的和平穩定澳洲對中國也展示了一個抗議的態度但昨天18號國務院"},{"start":107.506,"end":126.926,"text":"重批中國做出的是個魯莽不負責任的動作而且支持台灣一切的自我防衛的措施瑞士更特別瑞士是一個永久中立國罕見到瑞士的外交部長外交部長發言就代表國家"},{"start":127.847,"end":144.422,"text":"他不僅表達譴責這樣的行為支持台海的和平穩定南海第一島鏈等地方的和平以外瑞士還表達說他們有把中國駐瑞士大使館的人叫來罵就表達他們的嚴正立場然後我們台灣的國防部在3月17號"},{"start":146.192,"end":165.813,"text":"大概這個是第二次的立即備戰操演去年12月其實有一次了立即備戰操演我看媒體寫都說這個禮拜是第一次應該是去年的12月21日左右是第一次那立即備戰操演本席是支持這個做法也就是當威脅方有可能由演轉戰"},{"start":167.415,"end":182.36,"text":"那我們的陸海空軍就要有能力從平時轉為戰備轉為備戰狀態所以這一個3月17號部長在今年度有人說小汗光宣布了立即備戰操演我的問題是"},{"start":184.229,"end":202.219,"text":"解放軍是不是有什麼徵後或者你們有什麼樣的情資見到什麼樣的危險徵後必須進行這樣子的嚇阻包含國際上力量部長可以說就說或者不清楚不清楚我們看到這個局勢那你宣布在3月17號開始立即備戰操演"},{"start":205.532,"end":226.282,"text":"是有什麼樣的情誌跟徵後嗎?3月17號到21號這個是屬於計畫性的備戰草原它是預定的?對那非計畫性的備戰草原就是如剛剛委員所提到如果它實施一個針對性的一個軍事草原的這個活動那我們會按照它的這個"},{"start":227.392,"end":250.168,"text":"操演的強度,我們現在有一個灰色地帶應儲的一個地中高那我們就會想由總統下令之後我們就會進行一個立即備戰操演來做一個對應也就是說由指揮官下定這個他們操演的可能的狀況讓我們也立即做出回應來訓練我們的那個是由參謀本部直接來處理還是交給各作戰區"},{"start":251.249,"end":268.292,"text":"由總統下令然後各州安區層級以下要做立即陪戰朝延的一個動作那等於是把敵情也就是說解放軍的動作如果有針對性的我們會做對應的動作我們針對我們所獲得的這一些相關的一些"},{"start":269.413,"end":296.156,"text":"秦先生所獲得的情誌然後由指揮官他自己去想定可能發生的一些情況他如何要進行因應這個部分做一個這樣子來強化他的一個一個實戰化的訓練這對我們國軍的戰力實戰化訓練是有幫助的目前舊國防部的監測狀況解放軍不管在人員物資各方面的動作上有沒有異狀"},{"start":298.358,"end":311.247,"text":"在禮拜一嘛就禮拜一嘛禮拜一他聯合戰備警巡那這個聯合戰備警巡當然首見的就是說他是在上午的時候"},{"start":312.748,"end":331.616,"text":"從六點多開始實施過一次然後到下午的應該是兩點他又再實施一次那所以這個是一個比較首度看到的一個狀況所以當然我們剛好也在實施栗子集備戰草原所以可以剛好做相對應的動作全市或去定義他們的聯合戰備組決心的要求"},{"start":340.979,"end":356.548,"text":"這個我們有看到這個中國的外交部好像有在回應這個這應該都是套好的吧就是說他問一個問題然後他就回答說因為國務院這個對於下架的那個"},{"start":357.745,"end":385.879,"text":"不支持台獨的那個部分他認為是境外的勢力來所以他當然他們永遠都套好的啦但他把這個軍事動作詮釋為對G7對美國的一些外交的回應他的記者會當然很長啦有很多的問題那他特別有一題是說他的從事的這個操演"},{"start":387.14,"end":410.353,"text":"主要的針對是什麼?那一題他的回答是說他是針對美國他針對所以國務院18號也譴責他盧莽不負責任但是我現在回到這個國務院的回應也是第一次看到美國國務院這一次講的比較重用這個所謂明目張膽且不負責任的這個而且他後面多一個就是支持就全面支持台灣的自我防衛但是"},{"start":411.514,"end":436.469,"text":"剛才講的是政治外交上的定義我的意思是說他聯合戰備警巡罕見的變成上午一次凌晨一次下午一次在軍事上你們認為他在幹嘛我我們我們有各種可能的判斷那他這樣的一個兩次的聯合戰備警巡如果從這一次看起來的話應該他"},{"start":440.211,"end":459.715,"text":"他特別外交部在回應的時候他講說這是一個軍事行動那事實上他是一個操演所以我認為他在現實的這個狀況之下現在這個狀況之下他能夠做到的程度是在這一個兩次的聯合戰備進行的情況之下加強他的這個強度來回應當下的這個形勢所以我們"},{"start":467.878,"end":488.195,"text":"當然還是不能夠掉以輕心啦不過看起來他一定要對這個相關現在的這個有關您剛剛提到的G7也好美日這個峰會所表達對台灣的知己也好還有這個美國國務院這個相關的動作也好他一定要做一些回應"},{"start":496.603,"end":510.376,"text":"我們現在所謂的軍審第一個軍法從來沒有停過陸海空軍刑法一直是在試用當中只是在馬政府時期把它改到一般的檢察官一般的法院去做處理"},{"start":512.358,"end":534.55,"text":"部長我這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛軍閥沒有廢過啦人家說要恢復軍閥軍閥一直都在那裡就實體法它是一直是存在的那程序法它變成二元化了也就是說它平時移到一般司法機關暫時還要恢復那所以這個地方有一直在講說那為什麼要這樣這個是不是這樣子"},{"start":537.778,"end":565.67,"text":"當然一直在質疑我啦那我要說明的就是說從我們國防部的立場來看的話我們要平時如果不打造一個軍事審判的一個制度的話就在那暫時的時候幾乎沒有辦法運作老闆娘部長我在這個委員會十年左右了從大概每一年我都會聽到不同黨派的委員呼籲把軍審制度恢復也就是用軍事檢察官"},{"start":566.81,"end":591.459,"text":"軍事審判來處理軍人這樣可以維持紀律 維持管理大概我們如果在這委員會時間夠久的話每一年都會聽到 也會看到一些提案那這一次我看賴清德總統提出來的第一個他是限縮限縮軍人涉犯國安 軍事犯罪才會採取軍事審判的程序那第二個呢 這個還要國會修法"},{"start":592.139,"end":615.514,"text":"要經過立法院修法那我看行政院長說這個修法呢一個月內會把他review那我們私底下討論過我看到那個一個月內要把所有配套的法要擬出來其實那個是很多很多套法比我們想像多太多因為很多新的犯罪樣態刑法的修改你要對接那個你們一個月內可以提出修法的計畫嗎"},{"start":617.233,"end":642.379,"text":"我們會提出一個修法的綱要綱要就很難了 那個量很大所以其實限縮在軍人涉犯軍事犯罪 國安犯罪那這個原因也是來自於中國對台灣的滲透不管是共諜案 泄密案等等我們發現軍人背景的確實是他們鎖定的目標所以法律是用來維繫國家安全那也要經過國會的審查"},{"start":643.479,"end":667.557,"text":"那我這邊有兩個疑問邀請部長也許現在不用回答第一個我們當然希望提升軍法官軍檢的考選跟素質也就是軍事法官跟軍事檢察官我們在考選的制度那個都要經過考選部去考的考選的選考選之後的訓練養成希望他們有具備法律的素養"},{"start":668.658,"end":690.983,"text":"以及就是說軍人有軍人的專業法律人有法律人的專業一個軍人法律人他的專業哪邊應該著重這個在養成的時候可能要把那個中心定出來第二個建議是獨立性這個最難我們未來的軍法那個沈司長在這裡我們未來的軍法官要還在不在指揮鏈裡面"},{"start":694.571,"end":714.057,"text":"我想我們大家也討論過啦 已經事實上討論過很多次這個是一個不好討論的命題啊就是說我們希望軍事審判要獨立嘛就像一般審判 檢察官獨立作業 法官獨立審判但是軍法官如果在指揮鏈 有學長學弟 有長官部署"},{"start":715.481,"end":735.127,"text":"所以他就會變成是一個有外部人員加入的一個人事審議委員會他會被懷疑,我不是說一定,他會被懷疑會有外部的干擾嘛所以他的這個有關他的相關的這些生煎啊,烤雞啊,那個"},{"start":737.108,"end":756.18,"text":"所以你們現在還是沒有辦法回答說那未來的軍神有沒有在指揮鏈裡面我尊重好好研議這一題就是說我怎麼確保他的獨立性不會因為他在指揮鏈裡面要接受命令在判決在起訴上會受到"},{"start":757.02,"end":778.198,"text":"被操控的懷疑這一點可以很明確回答委員在這個審判這個部分不可能會在指揮鏈裡面法官不會法官不會檢察官是屬於檢查一體他是屬於行政權的一個部分他是一個外部獨立但是內部檢查一體我們就這樣來這個命題等你們剛要出來我們再好好討論謝謝部長的時間 謝謝趙偉"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":266,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時1分）謝謝召委，麻煩部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。第一個，我們看到昨天美國國務院其實是大概近幾年來口氣最重批判中國解放軍在2月26號無預警在屏東外海74公里的地方，臨時突然劃設一個實彈操演區域，它把聯合戰備警巡團轉做實彈軍演。其實在那個禮拜我們看了一下資料，2月19號共軍在臺海進行聯合戰備警巡，大概每週都有一次；但是21號在第二島鏈的塔斯曼海域，也就是澳洲跟紐西蘭中間，他們也在那邊進行實彈軍演，而且真的是在澳洲的大門口開了砲；2月25號共軍派出南部軍區的一個海軍支隊到越南跟菲律賓之間的南海進行實彈演練；26號就突然間在高雄、屏東外海40浬，大概74公里的地方，無預警的突然宣布了一個射擊訓練的場域等等。這是2月份從19號到26號發生的事情，昨天3月18號不知道是約好的，還是國際的共識，之前那個操演，事實上世界各國都予以譴責，支持臺海的和平穩定，澳洲對中國也展示了抗議的態度。昨天18號美國國務院重批中國做出了這個魯莽、不負責任的動作，而且支持臺灣一切的自我防衛措施；瑞士更特別，瑞士是一個永久中立國，罕見到瑞士的外交部長，外交部長發言就代表國家，他不僅表達譴責這樣的行為，支持臺海的和平穩定、南海第一島鏈等地方的和平以外，瑞士還表達說他們有把中國駐瑞士大使館的人叫來罵，表達他們嚴正的立場。臺灣國防部在3月17號，這是第二次的立即備戰操演，去年12月其實有一次，我看媒體都寫說這個禮拜是第一次，應該是去年的12月21日左右是第一次，立即備戰操演，本席是支持這個作法，也就是當威脅方有可能由演轉戰，我們的陸海空軍就要有能力從平時轉為戰備、轉為備戰狀態，所以部長在今年度3月17號宣布了立即備戰操演，有人說這是小漢光。我的問題是，解放軍是不是有什麼徵候，或者你們有什麼樣的情資、見到什麼樣的危險徵候，必須進行這樣的嚇阻，包含國際上的力量，部長可以說就說，或者不清楚就說不清楚，也就是我們看到這個局勢，你宣布3月17號開始立即備戰操演，是有什麼樣的情資跟徵候嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：3月17號到21號是屬於計畫性的備戰操演。"],["王委員定宇：它是預定的。"],["顧部長立雄：對。那非計畫性的備戰操演，就是如剛剛委員所提到，如果它實施一個針對性的軍事操演活動，我們會按照它的操演強度，我們現在有一個灰色地帶應處的低中高，由總長下令之後，我們就會進行立即備戰操演來做對應，也就是說由指揮官想定他們操演的可能狀況，我們也立即做出回應，來訓練我們的……"],["王委員定宇：這是由參謀本部直接來處理，還是交給各作戰區？"],["顧部長立雄：由總長下令，然後各作戰區層級以下要做立即備戰操演的動作。"],["王委員定宇：等於是把敵情，也就是解放軍的動作如果有針對性的，我們會做對應的動作。"],["顧部長立雄：我們針對相關的情監偵所獲得的情資，然後由指揮官自己去想定可能發生的一些情況，要如何進行因應，來強化我們實戰化的訓練。"],["王委員定宇：對於我們國軍的戰力，實戰化訓練是有幫助的。"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["王委員定宇：目前就國防部的監測狀況，解放軍不管在人員、物資各方面的動作上有沒有異狀？"],["顧部長立雄：他們在禮拜一進行聯合戰備警巡，當然首見的就是，在上午的時候，從六點多開始實施過一次，然後到下午兩點它又再實施一次，這是我們首度看到的狀況，當然我們剛好也在實施立即備戰操演，所以可以做相對應的動作。"],["王委員定宇：那麼要如何去詮釋或定義他們聯合戰備警巡的新樣態？"],["顧部長立雄：我們有看到中國的外交部好像有在回應，這應該都是套好的吧，就是說問了一個問題，然後他就回答說，因為對於國務院下架、刪除不支持臺獨的部分，他們認為是境外的勢力來……"],["王委員定宇：當然他們永遠都是套好的啦，但他們把這個軍事動作詮釋為對G7、對美國的一些外交回應。"],["顧部長立雄：它的記者會當然很長，有很多的問題，特別有一題是說他們所從事的操演主要是針對什麼？那一題的回答是說他們是針對美國。"],["王委員定宇：對，所以國務院18號也譴責他們魯莽、不負責任。但我現在回到……"],["顧部長立雄：對，美國國務院這樣的回應也是第一次看到……"],["王委員定宇：對，美國國務院這次講得比較重。"],["顧部長立雄：美國國務院的回應是用明目張膽且不負責任這樣的字眼。"],["王委員定宇：而且後面多了一個全面支持臺灣的自我防衛。剛才講的是政治外交上的定義，我的意思是說，他們的聯合戰備警巡罕見地變成上午一次、凌晨一次、下午一次，在軍事上，你們認為他們在幹麼？"],["顧部長立雄：我們有各種可能的判斷，他們這樣的兩次聯合戰備警巡，如果從這一次看起來的話，外交部在回應的時候講到這是一個軍事行動，事實上是一個操演，所以我認為在現實的狀況之下，他們能夠做到的程度是在這兩次的聯合戰備警巡的情況之下加強強度來回應當下的情勢。我們當然還是不能夠掉以輕心，不過看起來他們一定要針對相關的，也就是有關您剛剛提到的G7也好，美日峰會所表達對臺灣的支持也好，還有美國國務院相關的動作也好，他們一定要做一些回應。"],["王委員定宇：我看連瑞士都要回應了。","不過我要移到下一題，因為時間關係，我跟主席借幾分鐘。我們現在所謂的軍審，第一個，軍法從來沒有停過，陸海空軍刑法一直是在適用當中，只是在馬政府時期把它改到一般的檢察官、一般的法院去做處理，部長，我這樣詮釋沒有錯嘛？軍法沒有廢過，有人說要恢復軍法，軍法一直都在那裡。"],["顧部長立雄：就是實體法一直是存在的，那程序法變成二元化，也就是說平時移到一般司法機關，戰時再回復，所以這個地方有一直在講說為什麼要這樣……大家一直在質疑我，但我要說明的就是，從我們國防部的立場來看的話，我們平時如果不打造一個軍事審判的制度，戰時就幾乎沒有辦法運作。"],["王委員定宇：部長，我在這個委員會10年左右了，大概每一年我都會聽到不同黨派的委員呼籲把軍審制度恢復，也就是用軍事檢察官、軍事審判來處理軍人，這樣可以維持紀律、維持管理，如果在這個委員會時間夠久的話，每一年都會聽到，也會看到一些提案。這一次我看賴清德總統提出來的，第一個，他是限縮，當軍人涉犯國安、軍事犯罪，才會採取軍事審判的程序；第二個，這還要國會修法，要經過立法院修法，我看行政院長說這個修法一個月內會review，我們私底下討論過，我看到一個月內要把所有配套的法擬出來，其實那有很多、很多套法，比我們想像的多太多，因為有很多新的犯罪樣態，刑法的修改要對接那個部分，你們一個月內可以提出修法的計畫嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會提出一個修法的綱要。"],["王委員定宇：綱要就很難了，那個量很大，所以其實限縮在軍人涉犯軍事犯罪、國安犯罪，原因也是來自於中國對臺灣的滲透，不管是共諜案、洩密案等等，我們發現軍人背景確實是他們鎖定的目標，所以法律是用來維繫國家安全，也要經過國會的審查。我這邊有兩個疑問要請教部長，也許現在不用回答，第一個，我們當然希望提升軍法官、軍檢的考選跟素質，也就是軍事法官跟軍事檢察官在考選的制度上，這都是要經過考選部去辦理考試的，考選之後的訓練、養成，希望他們具備法律的素養，就是軍人有軍人的專業，法律人有法律人的專業，一個軍人、法律人的專業應該著重哪個部分，在養成的時候可能要把重心訂出來。第二個建議是獨立性，這個最難，沈司長在這裡，我們未來的軍法官在不在指揮鏈裡面？"],["顧部長立雄：我們大概也討論過了，事實上討論過很多次。"],["王委員定宇：這是一個不好討論的命題。"],["顧部長立雄：對！"],["王委員定宇：我們希望軍事審判要獨立，就像一般審判的檢察官獨立作業、法官獨立審判，但是軍法官如果在指揮鏈當中，有學長學弟、有長官部屬。"],["顧部長立雄：所以它就會變成是一個有外部人員加入的人事審議委員會。"],["王委員定宇：它會被懷疑，我不是說一定，但它會被懷疑有外部的干擾嘛。"],["顧部長立雄：對！所以它相關的升遷、考績、評鑑、淘汰等都要由一個外部機制來……"],["王委員定宇：所以你們現在還是沒有辦法回答未來的軍審有沒有在指揮鏈裡面，我尊重，好好研議這一題，就是你們怎麼確保它的獨立性，不會因為它在指揮鏈裡面要接受命令，在判決、在起訴上會受到被操控的懷疑。"],["顧部長立雄：這一點可以很明確回答委員，審判這個部分不可能會在指揮鏈裡面。"],["王委員定宇：法官不會？"],["顧部長立雄：法官不會。"],["王委員定宇：檢察官是屬於行政……"],["顧部長立雄：檢察官是屬於檢察一體。"],["王委員定宇：它是屬於行政權的一個部分？"],["顧部長立雄：它是一個外部獨立，但是內部檢察一體，我們就這樣來……"],["王委員定宇：這個命題等你們綱要出來我們再好好討論，謝謝部長的時間，謝謝召委。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","我們現在請陳冠廷委員上臺質詢。我們麥克風系統有點問題，所以可能都要先用無線的，我們等一下休息時間再來修理。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}},{"id":"159333","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159333","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8be72fe01be92077939fe1519e09d1f6f8962b2f3400241f618d508fe8f4599eb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:59:47 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請洪部長部長好謝謝委員上任三個月嘛感覺有點瘦了從立法委員到部長角色完全轉換了嗎必須轉換"},{"start":27.316,"end":49.591,"text":"我想請問一下你還是立法委員的時候在審查預算的時候會有什麼樣的理由你會提出凍結或刪除部會預算的要求可能會督促部會去做一件事情所以我們現在你現在上任之後有我們委員們提的這些刪除或凍結你認為是怎麼樣"},{"start":52.446,"end":78.682,"text":"是找麻煩還是督促確實在尤其是我們看到一些統統的一些統統的案子裡面其實不太容易在這個統統的案子裡面看到他是要督促我們去做某哪一件事情因為以前我們寫在那個凍結的案子他會讓你去做一件事情然後這件事情做到所以你也認為凍結預算是一種督促部會的一個手段嘛"},{"start":79.83,"end":102.251,"text":"但是要看 要看凍結的事由你剛剛講捅凍的先不講啦但是認為說 預算服邊刪除是立法委員的職責嗎我說預算啦服邊 服邊齁那刪除這個服邊的預算是立法委員的職責嗎第一個我們 我們並不覺得預算有服邊啊我問你 我不是說你這件事情"},{"start":103.846,"end":125.644,"text":"所以立委刪除預算是立委的職責嗎立委監督預算當然是立委的職責對嘛好這樣就好那我再請問一下你上一個通告的節目費用多少錢我現在應該是沒有你上次前兩天不是有去嗎那個沒有錢沒有錢沒有錢你就把你自己賣了就把你的靈魂賣掉了"},{"start":127.702,"end":133.147,"text":"你不覺得我們那天在公然造謠嗎然後還很自然看一下那個 你看我覺得一派輕鬆嘛"},{"start":135.422,"end":157.957,"text":"你是不是有說過育嬰留職停薪補貼是因為被凍結被刪除所以發不出來那個我剛有跟前面的委員說明了我那天確實有口誤主要被凍結跟刪除的是產檢價跟賠產檢價的薪資補貼那我確實那天講成是育嬰留職停薪的補貼這是我的口誤所以你現在跟大家解釋了嘛剛剛也再講一次但是產檢價跟賠產檢價"},{"start":160.819,"end":186.751,"text":"但產檢價跟賠產檢價的相關的補貼被凍結跟刪除一樣會造成新手爸媽權益上面的衝擊跟受損好那我問你啊那育嬰留庭期間我們政府給申請人投保薪資的八成這經費從哪裡來六成是救保那兩成是公務預算六成是在基金嘛對不對對是救保基金兩成呢公務預算"},{"start":188.497,"end":205.093,"text":"兩層是公務預算那我跟你講跟育嬰留庭的相關凍結的有五個案子都是我們民進黨委員所提的案子跟連署我認為這些委員都非常認真你有看到吧"},{"start":207.833,"end":228.045,"text":"你覺得咧 你覺得他們這樣做對不對卓榮我跟您說了 因為我在節目上面其實我要說的是產檢架跟配產檢相關的這個津貼的補貼我其實要講的這部分所以你們 你也認為他們做的是對的嗎哪一個部分就是他現在"},{"start":229.81,"end":246.261,"text":"供預算的部分跟育嬰留庭相關凍結的有五個案子我個人說明其實本來國會就有監督預算的權力跟權限這部分我們都尊重所以也有很多我們看到的凍結案他是督促行政部門去把一件事情做得更好但"},{"start":247.521,"end":268.993,"text":"現在我們在很多這個公務預算的桶洞 桶山裡面我們看了這個相關的提案書是看不清楚也不知道他是我們要去做哪一件事情做哪一件經濟的工作剛才你已經講了不要講那個因為我們時間沒有很多所以我問你這是我們困擾的地方我們已經知道了嘛你可以提出來好不好"},{"start":269.753,"end":280.43,"text":"你如果有這個自在難行你認為哪個部分不行我們在野黨都是開放的我們是憂心你們到現在是沒有提出來只是在那外面在那邊亂喊"},{"start":282.819,"end":303.726,"text":"我們到現在沒有接到你們任何一個申請說因為你有這個統三這部分你們有自在難行的部分對於民眾的衝擊我認為你們各部會應該要把你們自己的困難拿出來我們也講了很多遍了到現在沒有看到資料啊所以不要再講這個好不好那我再問你啊"},{"start":305.876,"end":322.348,"text":"這個勞務部今年預算多少錢預算增加多少錢今年應該是五十幾億吧58億嘛對不對那什麼理由增加58億還要說錢發不出來就是我剛剛講的你可以提出來我也很好奇啊對不對為什麼錢多了你們沒辦法做"},{"start":326.608,"end":344.314,"text":"我們都做過立法院還是要說關於預算增加這件事情或者預算審議重點還是要看科目尤其是很多科目是不能夠留用的那我們增加的五十幾億主要增加的關於法定義務的支出所以法定義務支出不能夠留用到剛才說被刪減跟凍結的部分"},{"start":350.38,"end":368.979,"text":"這個我們上禮拜其實我們之前行政院已經提出複議了可是複議被否決了但是我們有說啊你如果不行做我們可以追加預算不是嗎所以我們為什麼就是希望透過複議的方式可以為什麼要透過複議咧因為複議就是一個讓大家可以重新考慮的方式我們可以針對個案嘛不行嗎"},{"start":369.74,"end":396.781,"text":"所以我們之前就是針對用復議的方式來提出希望立法院可以重新考慮大家可以重新討論你現在到底要不要提出你自愛難行的部分我們當然有自愛難行的部分要不要提出來嘛如果需要的話各種方式我們都會考慮什麼時候可以提出來我們各種方式都會考慮我只是問你什麼時候不是說如果需要的話我們各種方式都會考慮包括各種現在以核限的方式的進行維護民眾的權益我們都會考慮"},{"start":397.341,"end":418.993,"text":"你直接提就好啦不用那麼麻煩啦對不對這樣違憲嗎所以你提出你提出自然難行是違憲嗎現在我們遇到最大的麻煩剛剛委員講到麻煩我們覺得現在最大的麻煩是民眾的權益因為這樣子的預算的刪減跟凍結受損這是我們現在覺得最麻煩的事情那你就提出來嘛對不對各種的做法我們都會考慮對"},{"start":420.635,"end":433.933,"text":"所以你要不要提像我們這個委員會這邊來提出來我說那個邱委員我們各種核限的做法在核限的做法下我們都會考慮所以在委員會提算核限嗎"},{"start":435.439,"end":463.901,"text":"這當然是相關做法之一嘛對 可是我們也不排除其他的可能的做法所以你們就是要你們就是要搗亂嘛我平常想你們不是要做事情不是要解決問題啊對不對我們現在開了一個門給你們走你們偏偏不走我們就是希望能夠把預算執行的好照顧民眾的權益這是我們最希望做的事情所以我們才之前開速力的爭取希望能夠你們也跟著這一台私塑電車一直跑一直衝不會轉彎"},{"start":469.521,"end":491.506,"text":"我們是希望讓市政能夠順利那最近內政委員會在審查國定假日你有告訴劉世芳說你支持還勞工7天假嗎我跟委員說明現在國定假日的法規主管是在內政部"},{"start":492.979,"end":520.902,"text":"當然這裡面牽涉到一些勞工放假的議題所以我們覺得在國家的討論國家的調整的這個議題上面從勞動部的立場我們覺得有正向討論的空間你當初還沒當公職人員的時候你主張七天假不應該和週休二日這個掛過在一起嘛對這是當時你的主張那後來你跟林靜怡一起提我們紀念日跟節日實施條例草案"},{"start":521.522,"end":548.044,"text":"就是要加放六天的紀念假日你不能跟顧立雄一樣華麗轉身之後就把當初的話都推翻啊對不對 所以我現在就是希望看到你的態度 你的態度是怎麼樣我跟委員說明我們剛才其實說針對國定假日調整的問題我們覺得從勞動部角度在一致性跟公平性的原則下面理性討論我們覺得有正向討論的空間所以你贊成嗎 七天假"},{"start":550.935,"end":551.796,"text":"我剛才已經說過你會照你的初衷來走嗎"},{"start":558.595,"end":585.977,"text":"我想照顧勞工的精神其實當然都是不會變的對那你現在是在這個議題上在這個議題上面他的法規的主管部會是內政部那我們會願意來協助勞工相關的新生跟期待來你可以表明你的態度嗎我剛才已經說了我們認為在這個議題上面在國定假日調整的議題上面你是站在勞工這邊嗎"},{"start":587.439,"end":593.248,"text":"我們認為有正向討論的空間你會不會站在勞工這邊我們當然都是站在勞工這邊我就要你一句話謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":433,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時59分）謝謝主席。我們一樣有請洪部長。"],["主席：請洪部長。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：上任三個月嘛？感覺你瘦了。從立法委員到部長，角色完全轉換了嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：必須轉換。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想請問一下，你還是立法委員的時候，在審查預算會有什麼樣的理由，你會提出凍結或刪除部會預算的要求？"],["洪部長申翰：可能會督促部會去做一件事情。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你現在上任之後，我們委員們提的這些刪除或凍結，你認為是怎麼樣？是找麻煩，還是督促？"],["洪部長申翰：確實，尤其是我們看到一些統凍的案子裡面，其實不太容易在統凍的案子裡面，看到它是要督促我們去做哪一件事情，因為以前我們寫凍結的案子……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！部長，你認為……"],["洪部長申翰：它會讓你去做一件事情，然後這件事情做到了，提供報告後解凍……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你也認為凍結預算是督促部會的一個手段嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：但是要看凍結的事由……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你剛才講的統凍先不講啦！"],["洪部長申翰：但是我認為最多的就是被統凍啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：預算浮編，刪除浮編預算是立法委員的職責嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：第一個，我們並不覺得預算有浮編。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我問你，我不是說你這件事情，立委刪除預算是立委的職責嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：監督預算當然是立委的職責。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對嘛！這樣就好。我再請問一下，你上一個通告的節目費用是多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：我現在應該是沒有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：像前兩天你不是有去嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：那個沒有錢。"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有錢啊？沒有錢，你就把你自己賣了，就把你的靈魂賣掉了？"],["洪部長申翰：我沒有賣掉。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你不覺得你那天在公然造謠嘛，然後還很自然，我們看一下。你看，我覺得一派輕鬆。","你是不是有說過育嬰留職停薪補貼是因為被凍結、被刪除，所以發不出來？"],["洪部長申翰：邱委員，我剛剛有跟前面的委員說明了，我那天確實有口誤，主要被凍結跟刪除的是產檢假跟陪產檢假的薪資補貼，我那天確實講成育嬰留職停薪的補貼，這是我的口誤。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你現在跟大家解釋了嘛！"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：剛剛再講一次，我也給你時間講……"],["洪部長申翰：但是產檢假跟陪產檢假相關的補貼被凍結跟刪除，一樣會造成新手爸媽權益上面的衝擊跟受損。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。我問你，育嬰留職停薪期間，我們政府給申請人投保薪資的八成，這經費從哪裡來？"],["洪部長申翰：六成是就保，兩成是公務預算。"],["邱委員鎮軍：六成是在基金，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對，是就保基金。"],["邱委員鎮軍：兩成呢？"],["洪部長申翰：兩成是公務預算。"],["邱委員鎮軍：公務預算嘛！我跟你講，跟育嬰留停相關凍結的有五個案子，都是民進黨委員所提的案子跟連署，我認為這些委員都非常認真，你有看到吧？你覺得呢？你覺得他們這樣做對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：邱委員，我剛已經說了，我在節目上面，其實我要說的是產檢假跟陪產檢相關的津貼補貼，我其實要講的是這部分。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你也認為他們做的是對的嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：哪一個部分？"],["邱委員鎮軍：就是現在公務預算的部分，跟育嬰留停相關凍結的有五個案子……"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，其實本來國會就有監督預算的權力跟權限，這部分我們都尊重，我們也有看到很多凍結案是督促行政部門去把一件事情做得更好，但現在很多公務預算的統凍、統刪，我們看了相關的提案書是看不清楚，也不知道它是我們要去做哪一件事情，做哪一件精進的工作……"],["邱委員鎮軍：剛剛你已經講了，不要講了，因為我們時間沒有很多。我問你……"],["洪部長申翰：這是我們困擾的地方。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們已經知道了嘛！你可以提出來好不好？你如果有窒礙難行，你認為哪個部分不行，我們在野黨都是開放的。"],["洪部長申翰：我們是憂心現在對於民眾權益的東西……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們到現在是沒有提出來，只是在外面亂喊，我們到現在還沒有接到你們任何一個申請，是因為有統刪的部分，導致你們有窒礙難行的部分而提出來的。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，對於民眾的衝擊，我認為是確實的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們各部會應該要把你們自己的困難拿出來，我們也講了，講了很多遍了，到現在還沒有看到資料。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以不要再講這個，好不好？","我再問你，勞動部今年的預算多少錢？預算增加多少錢？"],["洪部長申翰：今年勞動部的預算應該是五十幾億。"],["邱委員鎮軍：58億，對不對？什麼理由增加58億，還要說錢發不出來，就是我剛剛講的，你可以提出來，我也很好奇啊！為什麼錢多了，你們卻沒辦法做？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們都做過立法委員，還是要說關於預算增加這件事情或者預算審議，重點還是要看科目，尤其是很多科目是不能夠流用的，我們增加的五十幾億，主要增加的是關於法定義務的支出……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！你現在講很多，什麼時候……"],["洪部長申翰：所以法定義務支出不能夠流用到剛才說被刪減跟凍結的部分。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，你什麼時候可以提出來。"],["洪部長申翰：我們上禮拜其實……"],["邱委員鎮軍：還是要等上面……"],["洪部長申翰：之前行政院已經提出覆議了，可是覆議被否決了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是我們有說啊，你如果不行做，我們可以追加預算不是嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們為什麼希望透過覆議的方式可以請……"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼要透過覆議呢？"],["洪部長申翰：因為覆議就是一個讓大家可以重新考慮的方式。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們可以針對個案嘛！不行嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們之前就是用覆議的方式來提出，希望立法院可以重新考慮，大家可以重新討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你現在到底要不要提出你窒礙難行的部分？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然有窒礙難行的部分。"],["邱委員鎮軍：要不要提出來嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：如果需要的話，各種方式我們都會考慮。"],["邱委員鎮軍：什麼時候可以提出來？"],["洪部長申翰：我們各種方式都會考慮。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我是問你什麼時候，不是問你什麼方式。"],["洪部長申翰：如果需要的話，我們各種方式都會考慮，包括各種方式現在以合憲的方式進行，怎麼維護民眾的權益，我們都會考慮。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你直接提就好啦，不用那麼麻煩啦，對不對？這樣違憲嗎？你提出窒礙難行是違憲嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，現在我們遇到最大的麻煩，剛才委員講到麻煩，我們覺得現在最大的麻煩是民眾的權益，因為這樣子的預算被刪減跟凍結而受損，這是我們現在覺得最麻煩的事情。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你就提出來嘛！對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：各種作法我們都會考慮。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你要不要向我們委員會這邊提出來？"],["洪部長申翰：邱委員，有各種合憲的作法，在合憲的作法下，我們都會考慮。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以在委員會提出，算合憲嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：這當然是相關作法之一，可是我們也不排除其他可能的作法……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們就是要搗亂嘛！我憑良心講，你們不是要做事情，不是要解決問題，對不對？我們現在開了一個門給你們走，你們偏偏不走。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們就是希望能夠把預算執行得好，照顧民眾的權益，這是我們最希望做的事情……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們賴總統上錯車、上了火車……"],["洪部長申翰：所以我們之前才盡力爭取，希望能夠覆議……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們也跟著這一台失速車一直跑、一直衝，不會轉彎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我們是希望讓施政能夠順利。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我們不講這個，時間快沒有了。","我再問一個問題，最近內政委員會在審查國定假日，你有告訴劉世芳，你支持還勞工7天假嗎？你有說過嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員說明，現在國定假日的法規主管是在內政部，當然這裡面牽涉到一些勞工放假的議題，所以我們覺得在國假的討論、國假的調整這個議題上面，從勞工部的立場，我們覺得有正向討論的空間。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！你當初還沒當公職人員的時候，你主張7天假不應該和周休二日掛鉤在一起，這是當時你的主張，後來你跟林靜儀一起提紀念日跟節日實施條例草案，就是要加放6天的紀念假日。你不能跟顧立雄一樣，華麗轉身之後，就把當初的話都推翻了，對不對？所以我現在就是希望看到你的態度，你的態度是怎麼樣？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們剛才已經說了，針對國定假日調整的問題，我們覺得從勞動部的角度，在一致性跟公平性的原則下理性討論，我們覺得有正向討論的空間。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以7天假，你贊成嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我剛才已經說過……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你還是會照你的初衷走嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我想照顧勞工的精神，其實當然都是不會變的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你現在……"],["洪部長申翰：只是在這個議題上面，法規的主管部會是內政部，我們願意協助及轉達勞工相關的心聲跟期待。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你可以表明你的態度嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我剛才已經說了，我們認為在國定假日調整的議題上面……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你是站在勞工這邊嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我們認為有正向討論的空間。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你會不會站在勞工這邊？"],["洪部長申翰：我們當然都是站在勞工這邊。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我就要你一句話，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請涂權吉委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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劉志偉劉志偉好 聲音好像太小了 聽不怎麼清楚"},{"start":24.369,"end":50.701,"text":"好 陳委員長我看到劉哲輝你們國會會的業務報告憑良心講寫得很好跟農業不一樣都非常的清楚這點要一一肯定那今天我第一個要請教你的問題你是台積電的董事那現在台積電是不是會去接收或是跟英特爾合作你是當時"},{"start":55.028,"end":83.977,"text":"這一點我很肯定我們董事會從來沒有討論過這個議題台積電從來沒有談過沒有因為這個裡面我們電腦工會理事長也就是合授的董事長他講的說最好不要你記住這句話他是那種心聲講出來好像很痛苦的樣子因為以前Intel在台灣對電腦科學所以求以起"},{"start":85.219,"end":109.148,"text":"台灣當時都只有敢怒不敢言希望你能瞭解這一點這個我瞭解因為你瞭解因為這個像柴油跟汽油是很難混在一起燒的那所以呢好第二個問題這點要特別的注意不要製造對手要把台積電打垮了"},{"start":111.188,"end":137.689,"text":"你也是台積電的董事現在台積電在美國投資了將近1650億但是你再講最新的制式絕對不會過去最關鍵的機制不准過去國家安全優先你會堅持到底你有信心還是沒有信心你要告訴我這個人不要講官話喔"},{"start":140.101,"end":164.696,"text":"這個是我絕對有信心喔而且我也跟這個郭部長我們探討過這個問題再來台積電也跟我講他最新的製程一定是在台灣我真的經營到順利之後才有可能出去所以我要掏氣陳昌昌部長你們沒有LP我現在舉一個例子跟你講高通區域"},{"start":165.799,"end":172.562,"text":"那個獨佔的那個懷款台灣把七億美金變成一個投資的方案啊我覺得你有那麼大膽的勇氣啊"},{"start":179.763,"end":201.407,"text":"你覺得川普的胃口那麼小嗎要讓美國再次的偽詐你給他N-1 N-2他會不會接受 他要愛是要愛一流他要獨霸這個世界啊所以你講這麼多 我一點信心也沒有你跟我發誓 你堅持到底"},{"start":202.722,"end":212.181,"text":"看你跟我說嘛我跟...你...好你這樣會作怪你怎麼你跟我說你跟我說我一定堅持到底啊蛤你講什麼"},{"start":215.29,"end":240.685,"text":"我一定堅持到底啊我堅持到底一定會守住你堅持到底我看你堅持到底大概你官也做不久了我講這話懷疑美國論你是不懷疑的才能繼續的做我們不會懷疑自己的友方啦該堅持的事情我一定堅持到現在執政黨都是抗中保台"},{"start":241.96,"end":258.526,"text":"那你劉卓偉最勇敢,抗美保台,我講的抗美保台就是抗美國保台基地能不能做到?我覺得我沒有什麼信心,從高中的世界,我們不要說幾位啦,像你一樣都了解彼此啦,怎麼樣?"},{"start":260.066,"end":285.787,"text":"敢不敢抗美 保台積電 抗美保台保台積電不需要抗美啦我們就是堅持我們保台積電技術好啦 我再來拭目以待啦但是我很懷疑啦好不好你真的不用懷疑啦我可以用我的位子來擔保你要曉得啊上次在講台積電的麻煩核心技術 商業機密都要給他了你還有什麼能力啊"},{"start":286.843,"end":308.074,"text":"人家 別的國家烏克蘭要遷土地的培安納戈還可以順便一點沒有 台灣是白白的 我送給你來幫他解培安 請培安IBM在台灣設廠50年也有研發中心HP也有研發中心 微軟也有研發中心但是我們一個技術也拿不到第二個你台積電的董事再多問你一點誰叫你要去當"},{"start":317.77,"end":325.995,"text":"那你至於台積電建廠到2030年就結束了台灣的兇變會何去何從第一個問題"},{"start":327.626,"end":347.624,"text":"亞利桑那州的州長來台灣把台積電的供應鏈整個請他到美國投資那美國的話要再次的偉大他偉大在哪裡我要美國控制所有世界晶片的40%如果這些周邊的產業鏈一到過去的話"},{"start":350.086,"end":356.393,"text":"台灣剩下什麼我第一個重點2030年大概台積電建了這11場不會再繼續再電剛剛所講的台灣到2030年台積電用的電量24.7 將近三分之一"},{"start":367.955,"end":388.028,"text":"所以NAS的電也不夠他用你還有AI的資料中心用電也很窮所以你都說得好聽整個產業鏈過去了要怎麼辦這是第一個問題第二個問題沒有跟台積電的產業鏈過去比如在台灣要銷到美國還是100%的關稅"},{"start":391.991,"end":397.057,"text":"我問這兩個問題你幫我回答一下我先跟委員解釋一下齁台積電整個產能的規劃80%在台灣"},{"start":400.199,"end":418.331,"text":"百分之八十在台灣 百分之八十在台灣 這是第一點第二點 其實我們在看整個供應鏈 台灣最有可以再往上發展的是兩個部分一個是我們的材料 化學的部分 第二個部分是設備的部分大廠有辦法供應鏈過去 一般從本工廠到那一邊 要學著過去的話很困難"},{"start":423.795,"end":439.221,"text":"如果要銷到美國也有關稅那麼高好好考慮這個問題不要只有報喜不報憂啊很多人都在探討這個問題啊產業鏈會空洞化2030以後我們的經濟變化會怎麼樣主委我希望你好好考慮一個問題好第二個問題再來好 你好好考慮如果能一個評估報告出來最好都要講實話"},{"start":452.182,"end":475.459,"text":"那現在兩岸的關係非常的嚴峻我們賴總統把中國當為境外的敵對勢力那ECO如果停下來的時候會怎麼樣現在我們對中國大陸去年的勝差還700億美元也是最大的勝差現在慢慢被美國"},{"start":477.13,"end":505.829,"text":"期待掉了那我現在問你ECFA在這樣一段下來的時候我們的傳統產業我們這些高科技產業你要怎麼辦好好想這個問題如果以目前的情勢我看起來很有可能中斷ECFA他已經在調查你請銷不對等的貿易條件你國外會主委要好好的應用這樣的問題"},{"start":509.213,"end":520.327,"text":"這個我有請教因為這經濟部全責我有請教過經濟部長他們是說去年他們就開始在協助廠商移轉市場我實在聽不太清楚你可以靠近麥克風嗎"},{"start":522.885,"end":537.913,"text":"這個問題是經濟部主導的所以我日前有請教過經濟部 郭部長郭部長是明確的告訴我 你不能講陸委會的主導你要各種情報蒐集在一起 你這樣說就太不負責任了這是經濟部的事情啦 經濟部幾年就開始經濟部合作這些社會 開始移轉市場這是經濟部的說明"},{"start":550.469,"end":576.341,"text":"你們不擔憂啦但是其實中小企業我們的企業也很擔憂好不好如果兩邊的關稅都整個提高的話台灣的市場要跑到哪裡跑到東南亞南向的政策還是到墨西哥去投資被關稅就全部趕到美國大陸台灣空中化休想未來會發生的事情"},{"start":579.515,"end":585.359,"text":"你要曉得川普的胃口不會那麼小啦你要重演啦好不好注意一下這種情勢的發展那剛剛講到AI產業那我剛剛也講過台積電用電到了2030年已經將近"},{"start":605.451,"end":626.084,"text":"應該是四分之一將近25%我相信他不會在台灣在場未來台灣整個產業是跟著台積電在走他資質站得那麼高所以你要想到這幾年的一個後面的發展這幾年還可以維持住那"},{"start":627.577,"end":644.103,"text":"你國發會跟經濟部都一直在談AI的產業那台灣科技的產業裡面主要是做硬體的將近佔了世界的三分之一這是台灣的實力但是AI軟體產業我們的軟體產業佔不到1%"},{"start":649.385,"end":671.776,"text":"這是材料就覺得 其實最有價值的就在軟體但是台灣的企圖態勢 至少軟體都台來台去沒有價值 我是跟你良心講所以你現在有AI產業正在勢頭上我希望國安委跟經濟部好好的去研究"},{"start":673.376,"end":700.281,"text":"這個AI的硬體產業跟軟體產業一定要培植下來不然世界都在進步世界各地都在追趕你也要把軟體產業應用的產業AI的應用產業建立起來台灣未來在未來裡面可能會遭遇到很大的困難你的看法是如何謝謝委員我們看法一致所以我們在去年的AI施政主軸裡面就軟體產業"},{"start":701.421,"end":725.682,"text":"解決方案產業是我們的最首要的業務那我們也跟業者還有協會哪裡協會我們都有溝通過我還拉著郭部長一起我們會建立台灣那個軟體的這個平台產業然後以大大小來發展第二個部分我們會強化在百工百業使用AI美國所有的產業都是大資本"},{"start":726.823,"end":743.912,"text":"那中國大陸的Deep Sheet已經出來了不大不小的資本還有一家最近出來的一家聽說那個軟體產業都很好但是台灣還沒有看到AI軟體產業能參照我們自己的一片天地因為說硬體跟"},{"start":746.399,"end":764.356,"text":"軟體一定AI就是深度的學習很重要啊你要趕快建立起來天天不要自我陶醉啊說我們外銷很好啊我們長紅啊這個世界變化莫測隨時要到隨時要有變化一個新的產品出來整個世界就變色了"},{"start":765.357,"end":778.969,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們在Deep-seek出來之後其實有些產業去研究發現它只有簡體的介面不能使用那產業幾乎現在都用聯發科做出來的類似Deep-seek其實因為產業用於的時候大概都是幾種拔齒柱"},{"start":783.493,"end":803.281,"text":"如果把軟體再去加強在世界上占有益息之內比什麼什麼還重要沒錯沒錯好不好因為這個有2.3兆美元的市場規模啦所以我們希望從裡面拉到10%好為台灣加油啊不然你要了解只有用體隨時大家都在趕啊說實在啦"},{"start":805.011,"end":811.237,"text":"搞不好大家也要做啦出來你就要做啦整個紅磊的市場啦好不好是 謝謝委員謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":201,"blocks":[["陳委員超明：（9時58分）主席，首先有請國發會劉主委。"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：陳委員早。"],["陳委員超明：劉主委好。聲音好像太小了，聽不怎麼清楚。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：陳委員早！"],["陳委員超明：我看到國發會劉主委的業務報告，憑良心講，寫得很好，跟農業部一樣都非常地清楚，這點要予以肯定。今天我第一個要請教你的問題是，你是台積電的董事，現在台積電是不是會去接收或是跟英特爾合作？你是董事耶！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這點我很肯定，我們董事會從來沒有討論過這個議題。"],["陳委員超明：台積電從來沒有談過？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒有。"],["陳委員超明：電腦公會理事長和碩董事長也講說最好不要，你記住這句話，他那種心聲講出來，好像很痛苦的樣子。因為以前Intel在臺灣對電腦可以說是予取予求，臺灣是敢怒不敢言，希望你能了解這一點。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我了解，因為兩家公司……"],["陳委員超明：你了解？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是，這就像柴油跟汽油，是很難混在一起燒的，所以有一定難度。"],["陳委員超明：第二個問題，這一點要特別的注意，不要讓對手把台積電打垮了。你也是台積電董事，現在台積電在美國投資了將近1,650億美元，你講最新的技術絕對不會過去，最關鍵的技術不准過去，國家安全優先，你會堅持到底。這點你有信心，還是沒信心？你要跟我說實話，不要講官話。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我絕對有信心而且我也跟郭部長探討過這個問題。再來，台積電也跟我講，最新的製程一定是在臺灣經營到順利之後，才有可能出去。"],["陳委員超明：我真的聽不怎麼清楚，你聲音大一點。主委，我要套句陳唐山部長的話，「你們沒有LP」！我現在舉一個例子跟你講，高通獨占一案的罰款有7億美金，臺灣卻把這7億美金變成一個投資方案，請問你有那麼大膽的勇氣嗎？你覺得川普的胃口有那麼小嗎？他說要讓美國再次偉大，結果你給他N-1、N-2，你想他會不會接受？他要的是一流的，他要獨霸世界，所以你說這些話我一點信心也沒有。你發誓你會堅持到底，你敢不敢說？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我敢。"],["陳委員超明：好，你會當官。你敢跟我說嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我一定堅持到底。"],["陳委員超明：你說什樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我一定堅持到底。"],["陳委員超明：我聽不太清楚，抱歉！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我堅持到底，一定會守住這個原則。"],["陳委員超明：好，所以你不做官就不堅持到底？若你堅持到底，我看你官也做不久了。我講這話是懷疑美國論，而你是不懷疑的，才能繼續做。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們不會懷疑自己的眼光，但是該堅持的事情，我一定堅持到底。"],["陳委員超明：現在執政黨都是「抗中保台」，劉主委最勇敢「抗美保台」。我講的「抗美保台」就是「抗美國保台積電」，能不能做到？因為我沒有什麼信心，從高通事件來看。所以我們不要說假話，生意人都了解彼此，怎麼樣？敢不敢「抗美保台積電」、「抗美保台」？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：保台積電不需要抗美，我們就是堅持我們保護台積電的技術。"],["陳委員超明：好，我拭目以待，但是我很懷疑，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：你真的不用懷疑，我可以用我的位置來擔保。我如果做不到，我就不做。"],["陳委員超明：你要曉得，他是在找台積電的麻煩，所以核心技術、商業機密都要給他，這樣你還有什麼能力？別的國家像烏克蘭要簽土地協議，都還要再猶豫一下，但臺灣沒有，就白白送給人家，越講問題越多，危險、危險，很危險！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：IBM在臺灣設廠50年有研發中心，HP也有研發中心，微軟也有研發中心，但是我們一個技術都沒拿到……"],["陳委員超明：你也在美國設研發中心……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：所以台積電會保護自己的利益。"],["陳委員超明：既然你是台積電的董事，我再多問你一點，誰叫你要去當？你注意台積電建廠到2030年就結束了，屆時臺灣的晶片會何去何從？第一個問題，亞利桑那州的州長來臺灣，想把台積電的供應鏈整個請到美國投資。美國要再次偉大，偉大在哪裡？美國要控制世界所有的晶片40%，如果這些周邊的產業鏈移過去，臺灣剩下什麼？我第一個重點是，2030年在台積電建了這11座廠後，大概不會再繼續建。剛剛所講的，臺灣到2030年時台積電的用電量占24.7%、將近四分之一，到時候電也不夠它用，還有AI資料中心的用電很兇。所以你們只講好聽的，到時候整個產業鏈過去了，臺灣要怎麼辦？這是第一個問題。","第二個問題，沒有跟台積電的產業鏈過去、留在臺灣的，要銷到美國還是課100%的關稅嗎？我問這兩個問題，你幫我回答一下。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我先跟委員解釋一下，台積電整個產能的規劃80%在臺灣、八成在臺灣，這是第一點。第二點，其實我們在看整個供應鏈，臺灣最可以再往上發展的是兩個部分，一個是材料、化學的部分；第二個是設備的部分，本來就有計畫要讓他們國際化。"],["陳委員超明：大廠有辦法讓供應鏈過去，但一般中等工廠要學著過去很困難。如果要銷到美國，以後關稅那麼高，所以要好好考慮這個問題，不要只報喜不報憂！很多人都在探討這個問題──產業鏈會空洞化。2030以後，我們的經濟變化會怎麼樣？主委，我希望你好好考慮這個問題。再來，第二個問題……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們已經跟化工產業談過一輪了。"],["陳委員超明：你好好考慮，如果能有一個評估報告出來最好，而且要講實話。現在兩岸關係非常嚴峻，賴總統把中國當作境外敵對勢力，ECFA如果停下來會怎麼樣？我們對中國大陸去年的順差還有700億美元，也是最大的順差，現在慢慢被美國取代掉了。我問你，一旦ECFA在這樣一個嚴峻的期間裡下來時，我們的傳統產業、高科技產業要怎麼辦？好好想想這個問題。以目前的情勢，我看很有可能中斷ECFA，他已經在調查傾銷、不對等的貿易條件等，你身為國發會主委，要好好因應這樣的問題。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這是經濟部的權責，所以我有請教過經濟部長，他們是說去年他們就開始在協助廠商移轉市場。"],["陳委員超明：我實在聽不太清楚，你可以靠近麥克風一點嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個問題是經濟部主導的，所以我日前有請教過經濟部郭部長，郭部長明確的告訴我，他們去年……"],["陳委員超明：你不能講別的部會指導，你要把各種情報蒐集在一起，你這樣講話就太不負責任了！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：不！這是經濟部的事情，經濟部去年就開始協助這些業者開始移轉市場。這是經濟部跟我說明的。"],["陳委員超明：經濟部跟國發會是息息相關的，你們卻推來推去？看起來這是早晚要面臨的問題，你們不擔憂，但是中小企業、機械業很擔憂……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們很關心這件事，所以才會主動垂詢。"],["陳委員超明：好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["陳委員超明：如果以後兩邊的關稅都提高，臺灣的市場要跑到哪裡？跑到東南亞、南向的政策？還是到墨西哥去投資？還是因為關稅問題就全部趕到美國、大陸，讓臺灣空洞化？想一下未來會發生的事情。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好。"],["陳委員超明：你要曉得川普的胃口不會那麼小！你們要去思考。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員，我會跟……"],["陳委員超明：料敵要從嚴，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我們會……"],["陳委員超明：注意一下這種情勢的發展。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，謝謝。"],["陳委員超明：剛剛講到AI產業，我也講過台積電用電到了2030年已經將近四分之一、25%，我相信之後就不會在臺灣蓋廠！未來臺灣整個產業是跟著台積電在走，它的市值占了那麼高，所以你要想到後面的發展，雖然這幾年還可以維持住。國發會跟經濟部都一直在談AI產業，臺灣的科技產業主要是做硬體，占了將近世界三分之一，這是臺灣的實力。但是我們的軟體產業占不到1%，差距很大，其實最有價值的就在軟體。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，就在軟體！"],["陳委員超明：但是臺灣的市場太小，做出來的軟體都沒有價值，我憑良心講。現在AI產業正在勢頭上，我希望國發會和經濟部好好去研究，培植起AI的硬體產業跟軟體產業，不然世界都在進步，世界各地都在追趕，如果沒有把AI的軟體產業、應用產業建立起來，臺灣在未來可能會遭遇到很大的困難，你的看法如何？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員，我們看法一致，所以我們在去年的AI施政主軸裡面就有軟體產業解決方案，是我們最首要的業務。我們也跟業者還有軟體協會都有溝通過，我還拉著郭部長一起，我們會建立臺灣軟體的平臺產業，以大帶小來發展。第二個部分，我們會強化在百工百業使用AI的部分。"],["陳委員超明：美國所有的產業都是大資本，中國大陸的DeepSeek出來了，不大不小的資本，還有最近出來了一家很好的軟體產業，但是臺灣還沒有看到能創造我們自己一片天地的AI軟體產業。以AI的硬體跟軟體來說，深度學習很重要，所以你要趕快建立起來，不要天天自我陶醉，說我們外銷很好、長紅啊！這個世界變化莫測，隨時有可能會倒、隨時就會起變化出現新的產品，整個世界就變色了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，我們在DeepSeek出來之後，其實有些產業去研究發現它只有簡體的介面，不能使用，產業幾乎現在都用聯發科做出來類似DeepSeek的產品，所以臺灣現在也在發展中……"],["陳委員超明：其實談到AI產業硬體，大概都是由幾家把持住，所以把軟體再加強，在世界上占有一席之地，這比什麼都還重要。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：沒錯、沒錯。"],["陳委員超明：好不好？我是這樣……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為這有2.3兆美元的市場規模，所以我們希望能從裡面拿到10%。"],["陳委員超明：好，為臺灣加油。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：你要了解，除了硬體外，其餘的大家都在趕！講實在話，最後別人也會做出來，到時候你就倒了，這是個紅海市場，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對啦！是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員超明：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們現在請楊瓊瓔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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麻煩請部長"},{"start":13.709,"end":32.009,"text":"今天其實我覺得我們第一時間有點短在過去不管是業務報告或是年期國防總檢討這兩個非常大的議題其實從來沒有排在同一天過那其實這樣能夠探討的時間比較少不過我們也希望說未來"},{"start":32.689,"end":51.414,"text":"召委可能還可以再排一些相關的時間可以讓大家可以充分的討論因為畢竟他對我們整體的國防的政策還有他未來的走向或者我們所有的預算的編列其實他都非常重要所以我們還是希望可以慎重那接下來我們看到最近的那個新聞裡面有看到這個"},{"start":62.199,"end":70.037,"text":"中共方面對於資通電軍網路站連隊對陸作業我們不管這個新聞是真是假因為"},{"start":72.88,"end":90.72,"text":"這個部分我們在今天的公開質詢就不討論他的內容不過我們要看一下他更深層的一個部分就是說他對岸公佈這些人的照片、姓名、性別、身份證等個資而且還指出其中的職位他甚至是負責人還有戰隊隊長"},{"start":94.453,"end":99.714,"text":"這個部分如果我們要對我們單位的弟兄去著想的時候因為現在網路作戰它已經是一個常態或者甚至是非常重要的一環那他們在軍中不可能是終身職他不像其他一般的工作那如果他不適合或者說他離職以後這個部分他是被對岸終身追責所以這個部分可不可以考量他們可以向國安局或情報局的"},{"start":124.44,"end":137.075,"text":"負責對陸人員一樣他用就是用別名去識別因為國防部對於這些相關人的作業人員應該提高他的國安等級的相關防護或者給予適當的鼓勵這個部分部長怎麼看"},{"start":141.273,"end":155.022,"text":"這一點我同意這一點因為我想中電軍也是納入我們這個國家勤工法的相關的條文的使用所以我覺得不管他執行任務的安全要以保障那退離職會"},{"start":157.563,"end":168.929,"text":"之後呢我應該也要提供這個有關一些相關的一些協助他們可能不是離職而已啊就是我們我們現在講的是包括我們的國安局國安單位的或者像一些情報人員其實他如果在從事這樣的工作的時候他不是用不是全部用真名應該要怎麼樣去保障他們的身份因為他一旦離職以後離職我們沒有辦法保護因為其實他被終身追責"},{"start":186.338,"end":193.424,"text":"這個部分其實他只要不在我們的國內他可能會受到很大的威脅這個部分是不是也應該要重新去考量他們需要受到的防護或者應該要什麼樣的獎勵因為你畢竟要留人才其實也不容易這個部分請部長再針對這個部分可以再去做一些相關的研究好不好是那目前"},{"start":214.187,"end":232.151,"text":"日前賴總統宣布剛剛其實委員也有委員提到就是全面檢討修正軍事審判法要恢復軍法的部分處理現役軍人涉犯叛亂利敵泄密廢止職務抗命等等這些跟軍事相關犯罪之刑事案件那未來現役軍人觸犯陸海空軍刑法之軍事犯罪案要交由軍事法院審判"},{"start":242.304,"end":268.656,"text":"因為剛剛部長也做了一些說明我想請教的是因為本席或者一些相關的在國防部過去有很多包括部長包括一些相關的人員就是在管理階層其實他們也發現到軍紀一直沒有辦法很有效的去做一個管理其實可能"},{"start":269.676,"end":280.103,"text":"在這個部分是不是應該要做什麼樣的一個修正可是當時我們看到其實包括賴總統包括顧部長您其實都說要審慎的評估甚至你還說到其實是不同意軍法復辟"},{"start":291.351,"end":293.976,"text":"可是剛剛提到的 您提到的說怎麼樣去做它的修整它甚至不隸屬在國防部底下我想請教一下目前全世界有哪一個國家是用這樣的制度"},{"start":304.81,"end":320.941,"text":"有嗎?全世界目前有哪一個國家是像剛剛部長您提到的是用另外一個審判的方式或者吝嗇一個軍事法庭之類的這樣的一個方式來做全世界目前有哪一個國家是這麼做?"},{"start":322.669,"end":337.966,"text":"維持這個一般的司法跟軍事審判的國家在民主國家有美國英國加拿大以色列韓國跟新加坡等等他們都是怎麼做他們是用剛剛部長連說的方式是這樣子嗎這樣的制度嗎我想"},{"start":342.324,"end":369.712,"text":"每一個國家的他的這個不是部長我現在只是說因為過去我們有軍閥可是在洪仲秋案的時候很多整個社會的氛圍讓他把這個軍閥去把它暫時當然還有可是平時已經是在一般法院剛剛部長提到的方式那樣子的制度我想請教目前全世界有哪一個國家是採取這樣子的一個制度方式目前"},{"start":372.412,"end":378.009,"text":"呃我想不是軍保我說您剛剛提到的這樣子的方式目前有哪一個國家這麼做"},{"start":379,"end":401.789,"text":"我想因為每個國家我們大致上法制上有分成英美法系跟大陸法系部長我沒有要討論這個部分這一塊在法律的部分上面大家很清楚我現在說的是您剛剛提到的制度現在目前在全世界的民主國家有哪一個國家是採取這樣的模式有嗎"},{"start":403.57,"end":419.093,"text":"我想我們會去看看這個相關的這些大陸法系的國家他們所適用的如何維護這個軍法官他在審判當中的一個身份保障這個部分我們會來研究我們如果是自己又創立一個因為過去大家就是覺得尤其他是在國防部底下因為你是對現役軍人嘛我們來看一個影片好不好部長這個可能昨天看到的"},{"start":433.192,"end":454.582,"text":"軍事法庭看到還蠻恐怖的"},{"start":455.832,"end":476.936,"text":"部長您沒有不是現役軍人不可能會按照我們現在的所以他為什麼會有這種理解因為軍事法庭他審理的就是現役軍人現在對大家都是這麼說可是他的身份很特別他曾經他是民進黨很重要的一個政治評論員他出來講這樣的話甚至說這個如果牽涉到遣件或者牽涉到什麼共諜案"},{"start":484.918,"end":500.833,"text":"在這裡我想要請教部長一個問題,當時黃曙光前召集人,黃曙光前總長,他講到一個跟中共相關的一個問題,他說有人把資料給了中共大使館,"},{"start":501.914,"end":504.515,"text":"這個部分我不知道我們有沒有去追究這個部分因為中共大使館可見不是在中國大陸本土而是在其他的國家那到底是誰交給中共大使館或者這只是假的如果是假的就沒有馬文君牽涉到共諜的問題如果是真的那到底是誰"},{"start":524.784,"end":534.768,"text":"如果我們可以查看看那時候我有沒有出國有沒有去這些相關的國家這是第一點如果像到中共大使館那個通常都會有監視器的你的資訊是怎麼樣獲得的這個部分請徹查清楚因為這牽涉到我們的資料"},{"start":545.413,"end":555.403,"text":"是不是有外泄 如果你第一艘的潛艦資料都外泄你後面第二艘跟第八艘要怎麼繼續做或者你要從頭來過 這個都沒有交代清楚 可是我們預算已經編了第二個 這個政治評論員 他怎麼知道這個案子都沒有動為什麼他會知道 如果像這樣子拿國家的一個很重要的機密案"},{"start":571.411,"end":577.636,"text":"他不知道真假甚至不懂潛艦他都可以大剌剌的從過去到現在至少已經講了快兩年他都不用負擔責任嗎你給社會大眾是什麼樣的一個認知這會不會影響我們所有整體的國防安全這個也請國防部再去了解一下最後不好意思跟委員跟召委接一點點時間我想請教部長"},{"start":596.249,"end":601.712,"text":"第一艘潛艦原型艦它幾乎編列500億的預算有沒有被刪過一毛錢潛艦的預算當時在委員會裡面並沒有被刪都沒有被刪嗎?幾乎原型艦都沒有被刪過一毛錢當時明知道因為過去在民進黨完全執政的情況之下我們也知道只要提出這樣刪減案"},{"start":633.56,"end":634.402,"text":"壞掉了"},{"start":641.651,"end":648.398,"text":"抱歉部長我想在這裡只要做出澄清就是我們的原型艦從頭到尾沒有被刪過一毛錢對不對是總共493億如果連設計費30億還包括海軍的顧問費其實已經高達500多億那個連一毛錢都沒有被刪當時在"},{"start":662.631,"end":666.553,"text":"民進黨完全執政的情況之下為什麼我們提刪減數包括我們在場的委員比較資深的就是我跟王定宇委員其實民進黨也有提刪減案高達三十幾億所以我們只是要監督預算當時我們也知道我們刪不了可是為什麼還是提刪動主要是如果沒有提案問題就沒有人會注意所以在這裡我們希望在立法院今天的委員會可以"},{"start":691.943,"end":710.035,"text":"重新好好的澄清原型艦連一毛錢都沒有被刪過在過程當中大家都希望他可以做到好而且是可以維護我們國家安全是一個有效的一個防衛的武器攻擊武器所以在這裡謝謝部長然後我們今年編的預算其實也是凍結對不對"},{"start":716.618,"end":732.969,"text":"就後續建的部分是要凍結50%嗎凍結50%對我們今年的影響並不會造成什麼樣的一個這個前進的玉山凍結主要它是要到院會做一個專報才能夠解凍這個部分好像還沒有潛力"},{"start":733.949,"end":737.013,"text":"因為過去應該是委員會就可以去動因為當時大家的共識是你在原型件還沒做好然後就編了大額的預算他不是今年他不是20億他通過的是2840億14年的時間所以大家會比較慎重"},{"start":753.092,"end":758.739,"text":"因為當時的共識是這樣部長您也同意說他通過海事以後再去動之這筆預算如果在11月他沒有辦法通過的時候他甚至連動都不能動也不該動所以其實我想大家應該在聚焦到怎麼樣讓我們可以獲得一個有效的"},{"start":772.815,"end":798.405,"text":"還可以符合我們作戰需求裝備這樣子的一個立場我想大家都是一致的這個部分還是希望請部長可以去理解因為過去沒有潛力我們也是第一次造潛艦啊我們也沒有潛力啊所以沒關係就是都有第一次嘛後續艦的這個解凍我們不希望有太多的不確定性因為到院會去解凍這件事情"},{"start":799.446,"end":821.469,"text":"如果在11月我們能夠順利交件我們當然是希望11月交件的時候我們連其他作業都來不及包括你作業費想要做什麼都來不及所以部長您放心這個沒有前例的情況之下因為我們也是第一次自己遣件國照嘛這也沒有前例我們大家就共同的去"},{"start":821.869,"end":823.412,"text":"讓我們可以在這個武器裝備上面尤其是潛艦 大家好好的去監督然後也希望他可以做出一個好的潛艦 好不好好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":226,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時46分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["顧部長立雄：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長早。今天我覺得時間有點短，過去不管是業務報告，或是四年期國防總檢討，這兩個非常大的議題從來沒有排在同一天過，所以能夠探討的時間比較少，不過我們也希望未來召委可以再安排時間讓大家可以充分的討論，畢竟這對我們整體國防的政策、未來的走向，或者所有預算的編列都非常的重要，所以還是希望可以慎重。","接下來，我們看到最近新聞提及中共方面對於資通電軍網路戰聯隊的對陸作業，不管新聞是真是假，在今天公開質詢就不討論它的內容，不過我們要看更深層的部分，對岸公布這些人的照片、姓名、性別、身分證等個資，而且還指出其中的職位，甚至是負責人，還有戰隊隊長，如果要為我們單位的弟兄著想，現在網路作戰已經是一個常態，或者甚至是非常重要的一環，他們在軍中不可能是終身職，這不像其他一般的工作，如果他不適合或者離職以後，他被對岸終身追責，所以可不可以考量讓他們可以像國安局或情報局負責對陸的人員一樣用別名去識別，國防部對於這些相關作業人員應該提高國安等級的防護，或者給予適當的鼓勵，這個部分部長怎麼看？"],["顧部長立雄：這一點我同意，因為資通電軍也是納入我們國家情工法相關條文的適用，所以不管是執行任務的安全應予以保障，退離職之後應該也要提供相關協助。"],["馬委員文君：他可能不是離職而已啊！包括我們的國安局、國安單位，或者情報人員，其實他們在從事相關工作的時候，也不是全部用真名，應該要怎麼樣保障他們的身分？因為他們是被終身追責，一旦離職以後，我們沒有辦法保護，只要不在我們國內，可能會受到很大的威脅，這部分是不是也應該要重新考量他們需要受到的防護或者什麼樣的獎勵？畢竟要留人才，其實也不容易，請部長針對這個部分再去做相關的研究，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["馬委員文君：剛剛也有委員提到，日前賴總統宣布全面檢討修正軍事審判法，要恢復軍法，處理現役軍人涉犯叛亂、利敵、洩密、廢弛職務、抗命等等跟軍事相關犯罪之刑事案件，未來現役軍人觸犯「陸海空軍刑法」之軍事犯罪案要交由軍事法院審判，剛剛部長也做了一些說明，想請教的是，本席獲知國防部過去有很多管理階層，包括部長及相關的人員，發現到軍紀一直沒有辦法很有效的管理，這個部分是不是應該做什麼樣的修正？當時看到包括賴總統、顧部長您都說要審慎的評估，甚至您還說不同意軍法復辟，可是剛剛您提到它要怎麼修整，甚至不隸屬在國防部底下，想請教一下目前全世界有哪一個國家是用這樣的制度？有嗎？就是像剛剛部長提到的用另外審判的方式，或者另設軍事法庭之類的方式，全世界目前有哪個國家是這樣做？"],["顧部長立雄：維持一般的司法跟軍事審判的國家，在民主國家有美國、英國、加拿大、以色列、韓國跟新加坡等等，都有。"],["馬委員文君：他們都是怎麼做？是剛剛部長您說的方式，是這樣子的制度嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：每一個國家它的………"],["馬委員文君：不是，部長，因為過去我們有軍法，可是在洪仲丘案的時候，整個社會的氛圍讓軍法……當然戰時還有，可是平時已經在一般法院，請教目前全世界有哪一個國家是採取剛剛部長您提到的制度、方式？不是軍法哦，關於您剛剛提到這樣子的方式，目前有哪一個國家這麼做？"],["顧部長立雄：因為每個國家……在法制上大致有分成英美法系跟大陸法系……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我沒有要討論這個部分，這一塊在法律的部分大家都很清楚。我現在說的是您剛剛提到的制度，目前在全世界的民主國家有哪一個國家是採取這樣的模式，有嗎？有嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：我們會去看看大陸法系國家所適用的，他們如何維護軍法官在審判當中的身分保障，這個部分我們會來研究，那我們現在……"],["馬委員文君：我們如果是自己又創立一個……因為過去大家就是覺得……尤其它是在國防部底下，因為你是對現役軍人，我們來看一個影片，好不好？部長，這個可能是昨天看到的軍事法庭。","（播放影片）"],["馬委員文君：看到還蠻恐怖的，部長。"],["顧部長立雄：您又不是現役軍人，不可能會按照我們現在的軍審……"],["馬委員文君：所以他為什麼會有這種理解，因為軍事法庭審理的就是現役軍人，現在對大家都是這麼說，可是他的身分很特別，他是民進黨很重要的政治評論員，他出來講這樣的話，甚至說這個如果牽涉到潛艦，或者牽涉到什麼共諜案，在這裡我想要請教部長一個問題，當時黃曙光前召集人、黃曙光前總長講到一個跟中共相關的問題，他說有人把資料給了中共大使館，這個部分我不知道有沒有去追究這個部分，因為是中共大使館，可見不是在中國大陸本土而是在其他的國家，到底是誰交給中共大使館或者這只是假的？如果這是假的，就沒有馬文君牽涉到共諜的問題；如果是真的，到底是誰？我們可以查看看那時候我有沒有出國、有沒有去這些相關的國家，這是第一點，如果是到中共大使館，那個通常都會有監視器的，你的資訊是怎麼樣獲得的，這個部分請徹查清楚，因為這牽涉到我們的機密資料是不是有外洩，如果你第一艘的潛艦資料都外洩，你後面第二艘跟第八艘要怎麼繼續做，或者你要從頭來過？這個都沒有交代清楚，可是我們預算已經編了。","第二個，這個政治評論員怎麼知道這個案子都沒有動？為什麼他會知道？如果像這樣的一個很重要的國家機密案，他不知道真假，甚至不懂潛艦，他都可以大剌剌地從過去到現在至少已經講了快要兩年，他都不用負擔責任嗎？給社會大眾是什麼樣的認知、會不會影響我們所有整體的國防安全？這個也請國防部再去了解一下。最後，不好意思，跟召委借一點點時間，我想請教部長，第一艘潛艦原型艦編列500億的預算有沒有被刪過一毛錢？"],["顧部長立雄：潛艦的預算當時在委員會裡面並沒有被刪。"],["馬委員文君：都沒有被刪嘛！"],["顧部長立雄：原型艦的部分。"],["馬委員文君：原型艦幾乎都沒有被刪過一毛錢，當時明知道因為過去在民進黨完全執政的情況之下，我們也知道只要提出這樣的刪減案，尤其是大額的刪減……","不好意思，為什麼要切斷？"],["主席：麥克風壞掉了，請拿無線麥克風。"],["馬委員文君：抱歉！部長，我想在這裡只要做出澄清，就是原型艦從頭到尾沒有被刪過一毛錢，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：是。"],["馬委員文君：總共493億，如果連設計費30億，還包括海軍的顧問費，其實已經高達五百多億，連一毛錢都沒有被刪。當時在民進黨完全執政的情況之下，為什麼我們提刪減數？包括在場的委員，比較資深的就是我跟王定宇委員，其實民進黨也有提刪減案，高達三十幾億，所以我們只是要監督預算，當時我們也知道我們刪不了，可是為什麼還是提刪凍？主要是如果沒有提案，問題就沒有人會注意，所以在這裡我們希望在立法院今天的委員會可以重新好好的澄清，原型艦連一毛錢都沒有被刪過，在過程當中，大家都希望它可以做到好，而且是可以維護我們國家安全，是一個有效的防衛武器、攻擊武器，所以在這裡謝謝部長，然後我們今年編的預算其實也是凍結，對不對？"],["顧部長立雄：就後續艦的部分是要凍結50%。"],["馬委員文君：凍結50%對我們今年的影響並不會造成什麼樣的一個……"],["顧部長立雄：這個潛艦的預算凍結主要是要到院會做專報才能夠解凍，這個部分好像還沒有前例，因為過去應該是委員會就可以解凍。"],["馬委員文君：對，部長，因為當時大家的共識是你在原型艦還沒做好，就編了大額的預算，它不是20億，它通過的是2,840億、14年的時間，所以大家會比較慎重。當時的共識是這樣，部長，您也同意它通過海試以後再去動支這筆預算，如果11月它沒有辦法通過，它甚至連動都不能動，也不該動。所以我想大家應該聚焦到怎麼樣讓我們可以獲得一個有效且可以符合我們作戰需求的裝備，這樣的立場我想大家都是一致的，這個部分還是希望請部長可以理解，因為過去沒有前例，我們也是第一次造潛艦，我們也沒有前例啊！所以沒關係，就是都有第一次嘛！好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：不過就後續艦的解凍，我們不希望有太多的不確定性，因為到院會解凍這件事情……如果11月我們能夠順利交艦，我們當然是希望，因為台船……"],["馬委員文君：11月交艦的時候，我們連其他作業都來不及，包括作業費等，想要做什麼都來不及，所以部長您放心，在沒有前例的情況之下，我們也是第一次自己潛艦國造，這也沒有前例，就讓我們可以在武器裝備上面，尤其是潛艦，大家共同好好的去監督，然後也希望它可以做出一艘好的潛艦，好不好？"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員。","大家等我們一下，我們先測試一下麥克風，看起來麥克風壞掉了。","我們接下來請王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}},{"id":"159329","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159329","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b822dad1dd7586209139fe1519e09d1f6f8962b2f3400241f6ca7091789dec401d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"09:47:55 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謝謝主席 要請我們部長來 請部長"},{"start":28.813,"end":47.851,"text":"好 洪部長你好根據勞動部2024年的勞動統計年報台灣勞工平均年工時是2030個小時 對不對那為全球主要國家中的第五高那亞洲主要國家中的第二高那僅次於新加坡"},{"start":48.976,"end":64.133,"text":"那對照OECD國家的平均工時是1713個小時台灣勞工每年等於是多工作約一個月那然而當我們立法院呢有許多委員提案要回復七天假的時候勞動部的次長"},{"start":65.034,"end":82.277,"text":"李建宏卻說很多勞工希望多加班賺錢部長我想要先請教你這個次長的立場同時也是你的立場嗎也是勞動部的立場嗎那個跟文說明我其實有看了次長前兩天這段整段完整的發言"},{"start":83.058,"end":102.09,"text":"他的發言主要他在表達的事情是第一個工時的問題當然有檢討改善的空間第二個是確實有部分的勞工他可能因為他的薪資比較低那所以他會期待用加班的方式來增加收入所以重點是"},{"start":105.652,"end":114.696,"text":"所以勞動部也一直用比方說提高最低工資的方式希望能夠協助勞工來增加薪資減少他可能因為低薪而希望多加班的這種狀況我們是希望減少這種狀況那針對勞動部2024年的勞工生活及就業狀況調查"},{"start":128.002,"end":147.992,"text":"勞工近一年有加班者佔36.6%平均每月加班14.7個小時那其中有領到加班費的或換取補休者佔85%左右所以換句話說有15%的勞工平均每月加班14.7個小時領不到加班費是在做功德"},{"start":148.832,"end":168.485,"text":"部長然後勞工需要多加班賺錢的原因就是因為薪資低嘛剛剛你在講我們也是我們都知道嘛對不對所以他們被迫加班才能夠平衡開銷不是這樣嗎那為何所以為何加班這件事情好像是從次長的這個講法會讓大眾覺得說好像是給勞工的恩惠不是所以"},{"start":169.445,"end":189.432,"text":"所以事實上我想要講的是事實上的意思也不是這樣子事實上我想要講的意思是說包含過去我們的賴總統擔任行政院長的時候也說台灣那時候他說台灣目前整體薪資環境還沒有達到臨界點因此這次修法當時是在說一例一休是幫助勞工賺取加班費的彈性"},{"start":191.476,"end":216.57,"text":"但事實上我們都知道這個講法很類似所以我們說這個立場讓我們覺得說勞工明明就是想要的是加薪不是加班那我們修法也是要希望可以降低工時但是從不管是現在的賴總統當時的行政院長賴清德跟現在的勞動部官員好像讓百姓的感覺就是希望勞工多做功德多加班"},{"start":217.645,"end":244.138,"text":"所以我想這些數據不是這個意思所以我想這些數據我現在沒有要跟你吵這個事情不是吵我要跟你一一的不是這個意思我要跟你一一帶這個數據喔所以部長我想要說你次長的演繹是希望我們來協助讓勞工可以加薪你可以把他整句話可以看完我現在沒有叫你責怪他我跟你講我現在在跟你討論這個事實我們不是來吵架的不是這個意思部長我一個一個講啊我要講下來就是要告訴你這個數據的邏輯嘛對不對所以"},{"start":248.123,"end":270.018,"text":"我相信部長也知道當立法院推動這七天假讓人民有很多時間希望可以有多的時間可以休息那就是希望多加班賺錢這種我覺得這個是比較不負責任的說法但是我們要說從制度公實來看台灣不僅國定假日少於日韓那15年年資的這個特休假也少於日韓所以當然這使得我們"},{"start":270.859,"end":292.524,"text":"年資勞工的制度工時是遠較於日韓的勞工比較高所以現在即便加上如果到時候修法然後即便加上還勞工7天假這個台灣的制度工時跟日韓的制度工時也是在伯仲之間那另外從這個角度來看從薪資跟工時的角度台灣勞工也算是被當成廉價勞動力在使用"},{"start":294.044,"end":318.396,"text":"因為眾所周知我們新加坡的薪資結構是比我們高很多但是他的總工時卻跟我們差不多所以相對來講我想要講出來就是說從之前這樣子的發言我要點出來是說重點還是薪資嘛你剛也在講嘛對不對重點還是薪資嘛你自然的這樣原意也是看是薪資當然薪水比不上其他國有很多相關的背景因素啦但如果加薪做不到我想至少"},{"start":319.096,"end":324.495,"text":"我現在要討論的就是至少這個工時的部分我們要努力來讓他減少吧對不對既然"},{"start":325.578,"end":353.058,"text":"我想七天假已經被砍了八年我是在想是不是應該要思考把它補回來呢那內政部長劉世芳還說七天假不是一個真正的議題不宜倉促立法但是我就想要問那身為勞動部長和紅部長你的立場是什麼那政府的責任是解決勞工的低薪也不是鼓勵他們加班賺錢所以現在我們也至少要解決他的工時過長的問題所以勞動不存在理由我想不就是為了保護我們勞工嗎"},{"start":354.139,"end":372.41,"text":"所以針對這個七天假的議題就是想要問我們部長是不是應該要去做跟委員說明兩個部分第一個部分勞工部當然希望能夠協助勞工增加薪資所以我們推動最低工資上漲第二個我們現在也推動薪資透明化"},{"start":373.331,"end":400.171,"text":"都是希望在提高薪資上面多做一點助力這是第一個第二件事情關於國定假日的調整的問題我們認為在一致性跟公平性的原則下面是可以合理的來做有討論的空間的好部長我就要進一步指來我們進一步講高工時導致我們勞工的健康的問題也是一個很重要的問題引發過勞死那根據2024年台北"},{"start":400.891,"end":425.94,"text":"我們台北醫學大學的研究工時每增加10個小時罹患心血管的疾病風險提高12%那台灣每一年過勞相關的疾病死亡者大概是500人超過500人所以一樣高工時是從前面整個論述到現在我覺得好像我們部包含這些發言包含之前的行政院長賴清德的發言到現在我覺得"},{"start":426.92,"end":448.65,"text":"我們政府應該要更有積極有態度的作為不是讓人家感覺不是讓百姓感覺是在冷漠或是漠視或甚至是逆勢而行所以我是很希望說部長你們是不是你應該要更明確的表態更明確的表態說你支持這個齊田價而不是去說我手裡跑的因為你站在"},{"start":450.111,"end":469.691,"text":"因為現在在討論國定假日現在法規的主管機關是內政部但這段時間勞動部也持續的參與這些相關的討論那所以從勞動部的角度來說關於國定假日要不要調整的問題我覺得我們有正向討論的空間"},{"start":471.923,"end":483.871,"text":"部長所以我想要講你不能一直說討論空間嘛我想要問你的事情是所以勞工要的是加薪不是加班那短時間內短時間內我們薪資結構沒有辦法達成目標那是不是勞動部還是要站在你勞工的立場要表態說我支持還勞工七天假因為當時去年你的在勞動節的時候遊行部長有說替工會當時你說要替工會轉達還民七天假的訴求那你現在從轉達者變成被轉達者你是不是應該要承諾願意站在"},{"start":502.163,"end":523.115,"text":"當年紅委員或是現在紅部長跟勞動勞工的立場積極的更積極的去跟我們內政部長溝通然後甚至直接說你支持應該要還跟廖委員說明我們持續的跟相關的部會包括內政部在交換意見包括也轉達可能勞工各種的期待這事情我們這段時間都在做"},{"start":523.835,"end":536.952,"text":"所以我才說 但確實現在法規的主管部會是在內政部但是就勞動部的角度 跟勞動部的立場來說我們認為這個議題是有正向討論的空間我希望部長啊 你還是要"},{"start":539.15,"end":557.466,"text":"找回你當初的這個找回你當初真的希望為勞工降低工時的這個初衷嚴正的甚至是為我們勞工發聲說這七天假一定要還回來另外有關於一個4至807號同工不同酬的問題和工會法相關的問題"},{"start":560.908,"end":569.391,"text":"性別的薪資的差距根據我們主基處在2022年的統計台灣的女性勞工的平均薪資是男性的85.4%換句話說他就是打85折"},{"start":573.839,"end":594.608,"text":"也就是說每年女性比男性少賺約58天的薪資那每年的同酬日也是呈現這樣的狀況嘛對不對那釋字807號的時候解釋認定勞基法的第49條第一項限制了女性勞工夜間工作行程的差別待遇違反憲法保障的性別平等一旨而且該條文說"},{"start":596.818,"end":607.539,"text":"解釋公布之日就開始失效了那勞動部除了目前除了發布函式以外好像沒有積極推動修法真正落實我們性別平等"},{"start":608.496,"end":635.59,"text":"而且根據2018年的女人民的調查27%的人曾經在職場遭遇到性別歧視20%的人表示自己正處在同工不同酬的處境所以想要請問一下勞動部有沒有什麼具體的機制來檢舉同工不同酬或是去改善同工不同酬的問題還有包含過去三年勞動部處理了多少件同工不同酬的案件認定違法的比例是多少"},{"start":638.086,"end":659.495,"text":"公共委員報告有關那個同工不同酬的這部分的話在性別平等工作法裡面就有規定不可以因為性別而有這種差別待遇那有這樣的這樣申訴的話那這個部分可以處罰30萬到150萬那這種情況那至於說我們現在也在努力的推動包括我們有一個事業單位自行檢視的這個同工同酬的這個"},{"start":660.095,"end":686.601,"text":"那請問有沒有處理了過去三年大概處理了多少這樣的案件那認定違法比例是多少在我們在目前來說的話在那個今年起包括我們的勞檢的部分他在法尊的勞檢出去的時候就會把這個同工同仇的這個檢核表帶到事業單位請事業單位先來做檢視我們希望從這一個部分來先做一個推動那第二個的話所以還沒有具體的數字沒有具體的統計違法的部分我們會後再來做不給"},{"start":687.521,"end":702.294,"text":"那我想要講這個就是說應該要有這樣的統計數字讓我們明確的去推動讓我們希望我們每一年的這個同仇日可以往前再縮短一些好不好謝謝委員那我今天質詢到這裡謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":383,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（9時48分）謝謝主席，有請我們部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：廖委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：洪部長你好。根據勞動部2024年的勞動統計年報，臺灣勞工平均年工時是2,030個小時，對不對？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["廖委員偉翔：為全球主要國家中的第5高，亞洲主要國家中的第2高，僅次於新加坡，對照OECD國家的平均工時是1,713個小時，臺灣勞工每年等於是多工作約一個月。然而，當我們立法院有許多委員提案要恢復7天假的時候，勞動部次長李健鴻卻說，很多勞工希望多加班賺錢。部長，我想要先請教你，次長的立場同時也是你的立場嗎？也是勞動部的立場嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我其實有看了次長前兩天這整段完整的發言，他的發言主要在表達的事情是，第一個，工時的問題當然有檢討、改善的空間；第二個，確實有部分勞工可能因為他的薪資比較低，所以他會期待用加班的方式來增加收入。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以重點是什麼？"],["洪部長申翰：委員可否讓我說完？所以重點是，勞動部也一直用比方說提高最低工資的方式，希望能夠協助勞工來增加薪資。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，這個我們都知道。"],["洪部長申翰：減少他可能因為低薪而希望多加班的這種狀況，我們是希望減少這種狀況。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，針對勞動部2024年勞工生活及就業狀況調查，勞工近一年有加班者占36.6%，平均每月加班14.7小時，其中有領到加班費或換取補休者占85%左右，換句話說，有15%的勞工平均每月加班14.7小時領不到加班費，是在做功德囉！部長，勞工需要多加班賺錢的原因，就是因為薪資低，剛剛你在講。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：我們也都知道。所以他們被迫加班才能夠平衡開銷，不是這樣嗎？所以為何加班這件事情好像是，從次長的這個講法，會讓大眾覺得好像是給勞工的恩惠……"],["洪部長申翰：不是。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以事實上……"],["洪部長申翰：次長的意思也不是這樣。"],["廖委員偉翔：事實上我想要講的是，包含過去賴總統擔任行政院長的時候也說，臺灣目前整體薪資環境還沒有達到臨界點，因此這次修法……當時是在說一例一休，是幫助勞工賺取加班費的彈性，但我們都知道這個講法很類似，這個立場讓我們覺得勞工明明想要的是加薪，不是加班。我們修法也是希望可以降低工時，但是不管是當時的行政院長賴清德跟現在的勞動部官員，好像讓百姓的感覺就是希望勞工多做功德、多加班，所以我想這些數據……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，不是這個意思。"],["廖委員偉翔：我想這些數據，我現在沒有要跟你吵這個事情……"],["洪部長申翰：不是吵，我要跟你說明不是這個意思。"],["廖委員偉翔：我要一一跟你帶這個數據，部長，我想要說你也知道……"],["洪部長申翰：以次長的原意是希望我們來協助讓勞工可以加薪，你可以把整句話看完。所以我們在調最低工資……"],["廖委員偉翔：我現在沒有叫你責怪他，我跟你講。"],["洪部長申翰：是、是。"],["廖委員偉翔：我現在跟你討論這個事實，我不是來吵架的，部長。"],["洪部長申翰：委員，不是這個意思。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我一個一個講，我講下來就是要告訴你這個數據的邏輯嘛！我相信部長也知道，立法院推動這7天假，是讓人民有多的時間可以休息。希望多加班賺錢，這種我覺得是比較不負責任的說法。從制度工時來看，臺灣不僅國定假日少於日、韓，15年年資的特休假也少於日、韓，當然這使得我們勞工的制度工時遠較日、韓的勞工高，所以到時候修法，即便加上還勞工7天假，臺灣的制度工時跟日、韓的制度工時也是在伯仲之間。另外，從薪資跟工時的角度，臺灣的勞工也算是被當成廉價勞動力在使用。眾所周知，新加坡的薪資結構比我們高很多，但是他的總工時卻跟我們差不多，相對來講，我想要講出來的是從之前這樣子的發言，我要點出來重點還是薪資嘛！你剛剛也在講重點還是薪資。"],["洪部長申翰：是，次長的原意也算是薪資。"],["廖委員偉翔：薪水比不上其他國家有很多相關的背景因素，但如果加薪做不到，我現在要討論的就是至少工時的部分，我們要努力讓它減少。7天假已經被砍了8年，是不是應該要思考把它補回來呢？內政部長劉世芳還說7天假不是一個真正的議題，不宜倉促立法。但是我就想要問，身為勞動部長，洪部長，你的立場是什麼？政府的責任是解決勞工的低薪，也不是鼓勵他們加班賺錢，所以現在我們至少要解決工時過長的問題，勞動部存在的理由，不就是為了保護我們勞工嗎？所以針對這7天假的議題，就是想要問部長，是不是應該要去做？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明兩個部分，第一個部分，勞動部當然希望能夠協助勞工增加薪資，所以我們推動最低工資上漲；第二個，我們現在推動薪資透明化，都是希望在提高薪資上多做一點助力，這是第一個。第二件事情，關於國定假日調整的問題，我們認為在一致性跟公平性的原則下面可以合理的來做，有討論的空間。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，部長，我們進一步講，高工時導致勞工健康的問題，這也是一個很重要的問題，因為它會引發過勞死。根據2024年臺北醫學大學的研究，工時每增加10個小時，罹患心血管疾病的風險提高12%；臺灣每一年過勞相關的疾病，死亡者大概是超過500人。高工時從前面整個論述到現在，包含勞動部這些發言、包含之前行政院長賴清德的發言到現在，我覺得政府應該要有更積極、有態度的作為，不要讓百姓感覺是冷漠或漠視，甚至是逆勢而行。我很希望部長，你應該要更明確的表態說，你支持這個7天假，而不是去說……"],["洪部長申翰：委員，我跟你說明……"],["廖委員偉翔：因為你站在……"],["洪部長申翰：廖委員，因為現在在討論國定假日，現在的法規主管機關是內政部，但這段時間勞動部也持續參與這些相關的討論。從勞動部的角度，我還是要說關於國定假日要不要調整的問題，我覺得我們有正向討論的空間。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你不能一直說討論空間，我想要問你的事情是，勞工要的是加薪，不是加班，短時間內我們薪資結構沒有辦法達成目標……"],["洪部長申翰：我們希望……"],["廖委員偉翔：勞動部還是要站在勞工的立場，要表態我支持還勞工7天假，因為去年在勞動節遊行的時候，部長，當時你說要替工會轉達還民7天假的訴求，現在從轉達者變成被轉達者，你是不是應該承諾願意站在當年洪委員或現在的洪部長跟勞工的立場，更積極的跟內政部長溝通，甚至直接說你支持，應該要還？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，我們持續跟相關部會包括內政部交換意見，也轉達勞工可能的各種期待，這事情我們這段時間都在做，但是確實現在法規的主管部會是內政部，就勞動部的角度跟勞動部的立場來說，我們認為這個議題有正向討論的空間。"],["廖委員偉翔：我希望部長，你還是要找回你當初真的希望為勞工降低工時的這個初衷，嚴正的為我們勞工發聲說，這7天假一定要還回來。","另外，有關於釋字807號同工不同酬和工會法相關的問題，性別薪資的差距，根據我們主計處在2022年的統計，臺灣女性勞工的平均薪資是男性的85.4%，換句話說就是打85折，也就是每年女性比男性少賺約58天的薪資，每年同酬日也是呈現這樣的狀況。釋字807號的解釋認定，勞基法第四十九條第一項限制女性勞工夜間工作行程的差別待遇，違反憲法保障性別平等的意旨，而且該條文在解釋公布之日起就開始失效了，但是勞動部目前除了發布函釋以外，好像沒有積極推動修法，真正落實性別平等。而且根據2018年的調查，27%的人曾經在職場遭遇到性別歧視；20%的人表示自己正處在同工不同酬的處境。所以想要請問一下勞動部，有沒有什麼具體的機制來檢舉同工不同酬或去改善同工不同酬的問題？還有包含過去三年勞動部處理了多少件同工不同酬的案件？認定違法的比例是多少？"],["黃司長維琛：跟委員報告，有關同工不同酬的部分，在性別平等工作法就有規定，不可以因為性別而有這種差別待遇，有這樣申訴的話，這個部分可以處罰30萬到150萬。我們現在也在努力推動，包括有一個事業單位自行檢視同工同酬的……"],["廖委員偉翔：請問過去三年大概處理了多少這樣的案件？認定違法比例是多少？"],["黃司長維琛：目前來說，在今年起包括勞檢的部分，它在勞檢出去的時候，就會把同工同酬這個檢核表帶到事業單位，請事業單位先來檢視，我們希望從這個部分先推動，第二個的話……"],["廖委員偉翔：所以還沒有具體的數字……"],["黃司長維琛：違法的部分有，我們會後再補給委員。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我想要講的就是應該要有這樣的統計數字，讓我們明確地去推動，希望我們每一年的同酬日可以往前再縮短一些，好不好？"],["洪部長申翰：謝謝委員。"],["廖委員偉翔：OK，我今天質詢到這裡，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","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諸委你們有做什麼樣的因應例如說可以讓這個電價不要漲或者是怎麼樣對人民的這個衝擊是小一點的"},{"start":89.873,"end":115.501,"text":"因為這個電價漲不漲或者是票價漲不漲不在國安會的權責那我們現在就是透過我們的物價督導匯報的我們是這個單位的幕僚我們會大概會對幾個重要的物資譬如說黃曉玉這個的那個關稅啦或者是一些消費稅上面然後能源的那個相關的稅賦上面我們會進行抵檢然後做一些措施來"},{"start":116.781,"end":138.51,"text":"所以國發會是我們整個經濟發展經濟大經濟會的一個領頭羊你是經濟經濟會跟原卡會合在一起的所以是整個國家發展水跟電對你來講當然很重要不過當初我的了解包括總統找你來一開始除了你的專業之外不是很重要就是要解決讓電可以穩定嗎是不是"},{"start":142.528,"end":166.403,"text":"現在電價你至少現在做一件事情嘛讓電是穩定的讓電價不要一直漲我覺得這是國發會非常非常重要的任務我們也有反映民間的一些看法給到經濟部那經濟部我想他們在做任何事情都會考慮到這個產業的看法那的確有一些產業有跟我們反映我們都有反映過去"},{"start":166.983,"end":194.465,"text":"所以一方面是人在公民好修行苦民所苦民眾在擔心整個物價的一個高漲電價帶動整個物價的這個高漲這對人民生活衝擊是很大的那對整個產業的發展也是很重要的所以我今天給你看一個解決的方案大家看一下這是2006年開始一直到2024年整個平均電價的一個走勢圖波動"},{"start":196.104,"end":214.479,"text":"你會發現一個非常重要的我們在裡面再找答案馬英九在2008年上任執政了8年2016年交給蔡英文他接的時候啊一度墊我們用了一度墊2塊6左右經過8年啦還是2塊6你會發現馬英九的這8年"},{"start":221.296,"end":246.97,"text":"電價漲了四次可是大家很多人都忘記了它後面這兩年降了三次現在讓我們擔心的這也是國泡會馬上要去處理的蔡英文的八年漲了四次賴清德總統去年的十月份已經漲了一次了對不對現在十月一號 宜蘭姐又漲一次像充電砲耶"},{"start":248.325,"end":260.402,"text":"你會發現馬英九是上去之後4次完以後降了3次等於只有上一次對不對電價維持在一度是2塊6結果你從蔡英文的8年一直大帶輕的這樣一直衝上去2塊6現在已經到達3塊4、3塊5了"},{"start":264.755,"end":285.991,"text":"第一個人民負擔很重對不對第二個可能更嚴重啊三個颱風要來特別是電價對我們人民對物價衝擊很大啊國發會有責任去弄清楚為什麼馬英九當初國際的這個油價上漲的時候他上來為什麼他後來有辦法連山降為什麼民進黨沒辦法"},{"start":289.127,"end":313.621,"text":"問題是不是在兩個指揮你這問題在哪裡為什麼馬英九時代可以下來為什麼民進黨這八年包括現在賴清德總統一直往上衝沒辦法降還在漲為什麼委員您是財經專家應該記得油價當年是從30幾塊我想馬英九那個時候衝到了100多塊大概到120幾那時候還謠言會到150所以那個時候他成本大幅的上漲就往上走後來"},{"start":314.321,"end":340.486,"text":"整個油價又大幅的往下到60塊左右那當然它有漲的空間跟跌的空間那後面這幾年其實都是想要穩定所以就一直撐著撐到那時候是石油對不對主委你也是專家那這次也因為戰爭的關係石油增加當初馬英九碰到是石油上漲那現在蔡英文總統民進黨政府那時候碰到是烏克蘭戰爭天然氣嘛對不對天然氣在烏克戰爭的第二年就前年就掉下來了嘛"},{"start":341.414,"end":360.464,"text":"你現在去看國際的燃料的價格,全部都是往下走的所以就出了兩個問題一個是核電,一個是綠電的問題這兩個是以前馬英九沒有的民進黨政府現在做的兩件事情是以前馬英九沒有做的就是挖了兩個財政的大黑洞"},{"start":361.598,"end":372.166,"text":"核電 核一廠被停了核二廠被停了核三廠 醫藥機被停了馬上5月17號這個是你要一些關心的馬上停了以後一年的發電成本過電成本比以前多了1000億所以才會搞到你已經撥補了三次3000億丟下去"},{"start":379.773,"end":397.306,"text":"無底洞啊你還是補不了啊所以你現在又要1000億老實講再給你你還是補補不了要去解決核電的問題這是一個第一個綠電買得太貴這也是另外一個大的漏洞了你買進來的綠電後來賣出去的台電只有賣了10%90%都沒有賣出去所以企業買不到電更嚴重的台電因為這樣子一年多花了600億1000加600億每一年都1600億"},{"start":408.195,"end":435.362,"text":"這不是波普跟漲價可以解決問題的要治本嘛 不要頭痛就一腳啊所以國發會有責任整個政府有責任去把病因找出來解決核電的問題解決綠電的這個問題這就不用漲電價啊可以像馬英九這樣可以下降啊所以我們現在期待看到的如果國發會提出一個比較理性專業的一個建議我們期待事業要看到的不是上價是往下降"},{"start":436.69,"end":456.039,"text":"我們會 這個謝謝委員 我們會去給經濟部建議那我也順便也報告我們 我有問過郭部長在綠電的部分是這樣子因為綠電需求來自於企業 所以它的綠電並不會到民間 會到企業那綠電成本的確一定是比較貴 但企業願意花比較高的代價去買"},{"start":457.259,"end":475.286,"text":"那目前的狀況那綠電並不影響到我們現在就是很多企業或者工業區去工業區的時候他們在陳情說買不到綠電嘛那現在這個台電今年開始要賣R130這是一個起步啦可是現在很明顯就是因為你們以前買的每一年買了300億度的綠電喔結果後來都用髒電的價格3點多4點多就賣出去了所以賠了"},{"start":479.761,"end":502.6,"text":"成本賠了600億那我們希望這個速度要加快你600億就可以回來了嘛對不對而且企業可以用到電嘛人民不用被漲電價這是三零嘛這要趕快做好不好好那我們來談核能核能最近有幾個非常重要的發展第一類AIT的處長谷麗妍啊接受自由時報的專訪的時候她明確講了一共啊"},{"start":503.584,"end":530.057,"text":"核能啊放眼全世界包括美國跟日本在內都在復甦使用核能就這兩個跟我們最好的也是我們最重要的盟邦也是一個先進國家的美跟日他們在重新用核電然後他特別提到這是因為很多公司需要穩定的基載電力等於核電是一個穩定的基載電力嘛對不對特別AI需要用很多電嘛"},{"start":530.836,"end":555.342,"text":"美國跟日本都這樣做啦,更重要啦,你看這個美國的AIT的促定,美國願意幫台灣包括核能的部分這是釋放一個很重要的訊息我們美國這樣做,你台灣現在可能有電力的缺口不夠穩定或者是缺電,或者電價太貴,我要幫你發展核電啊,這個有沒有很重要"},{"start":556.721,"end":584.309,"text":"這信息很重要吧這個我們會幫忙反映給經濟部那這個部分我想委員在這個總質詢也垂詢過我想院長也有跟部長都有一個清楚的回答如果有新的技術院長是表達他對新的技術是開放的等一下我們來談新的技術我再跟你看一個剛講的是現任的AIT的處長另外一個是前任的AIT的處長"},{"start":585.229,"end":607.731,"text":"司徒文 司徒文講得更白了 他是參加一個這個兵推啊他直接講了 他說台灣現在面臨電力的切剖當其他的國家都積極在擁抱核能的時候 為什麼台灣政府要排斥核電呢你看現任的跟上一任的都這樣建議了 這兩個人都很重要耶"},{"start":608.786,"end":635.444,"text":"不只國發會我這個政府現在要好好去思考美國都已經開口了他一直幫你了幫完以後有兩個很重要的嘛電價是可以降的第二個我們的電力是可以穩定的對台灣太重要了好不好那另外那天的兵推啊也提到一個很重要的說來講用核能我急著要提醒了現在政府不只把核電停掉了他現在極力的去發展這個用天然氣那天的兵推啊發現"},{"start":637.796,"end":656.377,"text":"我們的如果目前一直在發展這個目前用天然氣啊我們的能源的穩定啊風險係數達到0.99的幾乎是百分之百啦他做了一個兵推他說啊中共在南海強行去檢查我們的這個液化天然氣的這個船隻"},{"start":660.294,"end":681.608,"text":"昨天啊 前天 中共不是也開始要演習了嗎他不要打你啊 他只要圍你就好了十天 天然氣就斷氣了 台灣就斷氣了這個也是 拜託一下 注意現在所有停掉的核電 幾乎都是用天然氣來補天然氣在現在兩岸的關係搞得這麼緊張我們隨時會斷氣喔"},{"start":686.26,"end":709.134,"text":"好不好好最後我們來做一個總結所以你剛講的你說院長那天提到說要有一個新的核能對不對我要問兩個問題院長是說不排斥院長那天是講不排斥嘛那所謂的新核能是什麼如果美國也開口了我們現在的核二廠看起來隨時可以重啟啊你看以前美國跟日本要重啟一個核電廠可能要五年六年"},{"start":710.499,"end":728.074,"text":"現在不是喔 現在大概都是只要確定是安全的一年到三年就可以用了所以核二很快就可以重新的啟用那問你 如果我們經過檢查之後核二廠跟核三廠是安全的可以重新再啟動它算不算行政院你們定義的新的這個核能"},{"start":729.456,"end":750.866,"text":"這個還是要由那個主管人員政策的經濟部來做決定那安全的部分要由核安會來做一個把關嘛安全當然有安全的部門嘛那現在就是行政院長這樣講他一直在講好幾次講新核能啊那我的問題是如果核落核酸重啟在安全狀況下重啟它算不算新核能還是只能用那個小型的"},{"start":752.165,"end":772.782,"text":"只要看他維修的時候有沒有做一些新的改變院長是誰要問過你問過相關的部門才能夠這樣講吧因為我不是核能的專家也不是全職單位所以他不會問我所以你對於新核能這個定義你不清楚那你個人覺得如果是核二核三在安全的狀況下如果要重啟新的核能我的了解有很多新的技術在發展"},{"start":773.883,"end":793.229,"text":"除了 SMR 以外,事實上還有像 Bill Gates 投資的它是用氨然後去把輻射下降但它的新的危險是它比較容易爆炸這種新的技術還有在我們看到非常多合融合的技術在各個研究單位都在進行中所以這個就我們了解新的技術都還是"},{"start":794.509,"end":823.658,"text":"我個人是有一些了解所以你是贊成你也肯定這種比較安全這種小型核能對不對現在只是說它的成本真的很高我比較保守看小型核能我沒有贊成我比較保守看這件事你是比較保守的原因是很簡單那你的看法跟那個院長可能就不一樣了這個照不是委員想想看我們現在去設一個變電所的零幣設施的抗爭就很大了我們去設一個SMR在它幾乎是以社區為主的話其實那個抗爭是我們不知道"},{"start":824.438,"end":848.477,"text":"可行性高不高我覺得你認為這個小型這個核電還要再觀察就對了我是覺得保守看待他啦因為他要民眾能接受在我家附近那你要跟院長要再溝通一下因為他一直在強調用新核能嘛那只有兩種可能性嘛一種是你現在有疑慮的他認為要那到底是裡面有什麼問題要把它解釋清楚那第二個對民眾來講我到底什麼時候可以用到這所謂的新核能"},{"start":848.917,"end":869.604,"text":"是核二核三重啟啦還是你說的這個電廠一直在講的這個小型的好不好這個要努力最後問一個最關鍵的今天開始今天開始馬上好今天最關鍵的我們立法院的委員會已經開始在審這個要讓這個核電廠可以研議的或者重啟的今天開始公聽會已經開始了我要請教主委你的這個個人這個意見你贊不贊成"},{"start":872.721,"end":890.429,"text":"讓我們的核電廠如果在安全的狀況之下核二的一號機二號機核三廠的一號機可以重新啟動或者讓核三廠的二號機可以沿用你個人的意見是怎麼樣我個人因為對這個領域沒有那麼熟悉但是我尊重各種法律的意見"},{"start":891.854,"end":899.764,"text":"那個主委你是國家發展的領頭羊電力非常重要我今天用了很多的時間去講這個核電的對我們國家的這個發展它關係到穩定關係到電價可以不要漲"},{"start":904.409,"end":928.658,"text":"所以請國發會我建議這部分一定要不只是要關心要提出你們的規劃好不好好的我們來努力我記得國發會有責任4月1號能不能最近電價委員會馬上就要開了如果提到我們剛剛講的它會穩定來用便宜的核電連美國都開口了然後綠電趕快能夠賣出去的不要用高價買用低價去賣滿足我們的企業讓價格降下來只要解決核能跟"},{"start":929.554,"end":933.639,"text":"核能的問題還有綠電這個問題我們不只不用上架可以降價一起努力好不好謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":146,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時43分）請主委。"],["主席：好，劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：國發會非常重要，是我們國家發展的總舵手，領頭羊。你在報告有特別提到用水跟用電，這段時間民眾最關心的不是雙颱效應，而是有三個颱風要來了：水要漲了、電要漲了、臺鐵也要漲了，所以連央行都出來示警！央行說如果這三個全部都漲的話，我們的CPI會衝破2%的警戒線。當初訂2%就是怕有可能通膨，對不對？這個對我們的民生跟產業衝擊會非常非常大。請問國發會主委，你們有做什麼樣的因應？例如可以讓電價不要漲或者是怎麼樣對人民的衝擊小一點？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為電價漲不漲或票價漲不漲不是國發會的權責，現在就是透過物價督導會報，我們是這個單位的幕僚，所以大概會對幾個重要的物資，譬如黃小玉的關稅，或者是一些消費稅、能源相關的稅賦上面會進行抵減，做一些措施來降低衝擊。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，國發會是整個經濟發展、大經建會的領頭羊，你們是經建會跟研考會合在一起的，所以關乎整個國家發展啊！水跟電對你們來講當然很重要，不過據我了解，當初總統找你來，一開始除了你的專業之外，很重要的就是要解決、讓電可以穩定，是不是？關於電價部分，你至少現在做一件事情，就是讓電是穩定的、讓電價不要一直漲，我覺得這是國發會非常非常重要的任務。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們也有反映民間的一些看法給經濟部，我想經濟部在做任何事情都會考慮到產業的看法，的確有一些產業有跟我們反映，我們都有反映過去。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，人在公門好修行，是苦民所苦，民眾擔心物價高漲，而電價會帶動整個物價的高漲，這對人民生活的衝擊是很大的，對整個產業的發展也是很重要的。所以我給你看一個解決方案，請大家看一下。這是2006年開始一直到2024年平均電價波動的走勢圖，你會發現一件非常重要的事，我們可以從裡面來找答案。馬英九在2008年上任，執政了八年，於2016年交給蔡英文，他接的時候，我們用的一度電是兩塊六左右，經過八年還是兩塊六。馬英九的這八年電價漲了四次，可是很多人都忘記他後面兩年降了三次。現在讓我們擔心的，這也是國發會要馬上去處理的，蔡英文的八年漲了四次，而賴清德總統在去年10月已經漲了一次了，對不對？4月1號愚人節又要漲一次，像沖天炮耶！你有沒有發現馬英九是上去四次以後降了三次，等於只有漲一次，對不對？電價維持在一度是兩塊六！結果從蔡英文的八年一直到賴清德，是這樣一直衝上去，兩塊六現在已經到達三塊四、三塊五了。第一個，人民負擔很重；第二個可能更嚴重，有三個颱風要來，特別是電價對人民、對物價的衝擊很大，所以國發會有責任去弄清楚。當初國際油價上漲的時候馬英九上來，為什麼他後來有辦法連三降，為什麼民進黨沒辦法？問題是不是在兩個？主委，你覺得問題在哪裡？為什麼馬英九時代電價可以下來，為什麼民進黨這八年，包括現在的賴清德總統一直往上衝，沒辦法降，還在漲，為什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員，您是財經專家，應該記得油價當年，我是講馬英九那個時候，從三十幾塊衝到了一百多塊，大概到一百二十幾，那時候還謠言會到150，所以那個時候成本大幅上漲就往上走。後來整個油價又大幅地往下到60塊左右，當然它有漲的空間跟跌的空間。後面這幾年其實都是想要穩定價格，所以就一直撐著，撐到很辛苦才往上漲。"],["張委員啓楷：那時候是石油，對不對？主委，你也是專家……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這次也因為戰爭的關係，石油……"],["張委員啓楷：你剛才講的那個很重要，當初馬英九碰到的是石油上漲，蔡英文總統、民進黨政府碰到的是烏克蘭戰爭，天然氣，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["張委員啓楷：但天然氣在烏俄戰爭的第二年，即前年就掉下來了！你現在去看國際燃料價格，全部都是往下走的！所以這出了兩個問題，一個是核電，一個是綠電，這兩個是以前馬英九沒有的。民進黨政府現在做了兩件事情是以前馬英九沒有做的，結果就挖了兩個財政的大黑洞。核電部分，核一廠被停了、核二廠被停了、核三廠1號機被停了，馬上5月17號……這個是你要去關心的，停了以後，一年的發電成本、購電成本比以前多了1,000億，所以才會搞到已經撥補了三次，3,000億丟下去，還是無底洞啊！還是補不了！現在又要1,000億？老實講，再給還是補不了，所以要去解決核電的這個問題，這是一個。第二個，綠電買得太貴，這也是另外一個大的漏洞！買進來的綠電，而後來賣出去的，台電只有賣了10%，90%都沒有賣出去，所以企業買不到電；更嚴重的是，台電因為這樣子，一年多花了600億，1,000億加600億，每一年都1,600億，這不是撥補跟漲價可以解決問題的，要治本，不要頭痛去醫腳！所以國發會有責任，整個政府有責任去把病因找出來，解決核電的問題，解決綠電的問題，這樣就不用漲電價，可以像馬英九這樣，可以下降啊！所以我們現在期待看到的，如果國發會提出一個比較理性、專業的建議，我們期待4月1號看到的不是上漲，是往下降。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員，我們會給經濟部建議。我也順便報告，我有問過郭部長，綠電的部分是這樣子。因為綠電需求來自於企業，所以綠電並不會到民間，會到企業。綠電成本的確比較貴，但企業也願意花比較高的代價去買，目前的狀況是綠電並不會影響到民生。"],["張委員啓楷：我們現在就是很多企業，或者去工業區的時候，他們在陳情說買不到綠電。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["張委員啓楷：台電今年開始要賣RE30，這是個起步，可是現在很明顯，就是因為你們以前買的，每一年買了300億度的綠電，結果後來都用髒電的價格──三點多、四點多就賣出去了，所以成本賠了600億。我們希望這個速度要加快，你600億就可以回來了，對不對？而且企業可以用到電，人民不用被漲電價，這是三贏，這要趕快做，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我們會反映。"],["張委員啓楷：好，我們來談核能。核能最近有幾個非常重要的發展。第一個，AIT的處長谷立言接受自由時報專訪的時候，他明確講說：核能放眼全世界，包括美國、日本在內，都在復甦使用核能。就這兩個跟我們最好的，也是我們最重要的盟邦，也是先進國家的美跟日，他們在重新用核電。然後他特別提到，這是因為很多公司需要穩定的基載電力，而核電是一個穩定的基載電力，對不對？特別AI需要用很多電，美國跟日本都這樣做！更重要的，你看這句話，美國AIT的處長說美國願意幫臺灣，包括核能的部分，這釋放一個很重要的訊息──我們美國願意這樣做，你臺灣現在可能有電力的缺口，不夠穩定或者是缺電，或者電價太貴，我要幫你發展核電。這個有沒有很重要？這個訊息很重要吧！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我們會幫忙反映給經濟部，這個部分委員在總質詢也垂詢過，我想院長跟部長都有清楚的回答，如果有新的技術，院長表達他對新的技術是開放的。"],["張委員啓楷：等一下我們來談新的技術。我再給你看一個，剛剛講的是AIT現任的處長，另外一個是AIT前任的處長司徒文。司徒文講得更白了，他去參加兵推，他直接講說臺灣現在面臨電力缺口，當其他國家都積極在擁抱核能的時候，為什麼臺灣政府要排斥核電呢？現任的跟上一任的處長都這樣建議了，這兩個人都很重要！不只國發會，我覺得政府現在要好好去思考，美國都已經開口說願意幫我們了，幫完以後有兩個很重要的作用，第一個，電價是可以降的；第二個，我們的電力是可以穩定的，這對臺灣太重要了，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我會跟經濟部反映。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，那天兵推也提到一個很重要的，剛才提到說用核能，我急著要提醒的是，現在政府不只把核電停掉了，還極力地去發展天然氣。那天兵推發現，如果目前一直在發展、使用天然氣，我們能源穩定的風險係數達到0.99，幾乎是百分之百。他做了一個兵推，他說中共在南海強行去檢查我們的液化天然氣船隻，10天就好了，昨天還是前天中共不是開始要演習了嗎？它不用打你，只要圍你就好了，10天，天然氣就斷氣了，臺灣就斷氣了！這個也是拜託一下！主委，現在所有停掉的核電，幾乎都是用天然氣來補，現在兩岸的關係搞得這麼緊張，我們隨時會被斷氣，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我們去問……"],["張委員啓楷：最後我們來做個總結。就你剛剛講的，你說院長那天提到新核能，對不對？我要問兩個問題。第一個……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：院長是說不排斥。"],["張委員啓楷：什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：院長那天是講不排斥。"],["張委員啓楷：好，不排斥。所謂的新核能是什麼？美國也開口了，我們現在的核二廠看起來隨時可以重啟，你看以前美國跟日本要重啟一個核電廠，可能要5年、6年，現在不是，現在大概只要確定是安全的，1年到3年就可以用了，所以核二很快就可以重新啟用。我再問你，如果經過檢查之後，核二廠跟核三廠是安全的，可以重新再啟動，它算不算行政院定義的新核能？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個還是要由主管能源政策的經濟部來做決定，安全的部分要由核安會來做把關。"],["張委員啓楷：安全當然有負責安全的部門，現在就是行政院長這樣講，他已經講好幾次新核能啊！我的問題是如果核二、核三在安全狀況下重啟，算不算新核能？還是只能用小型的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這要看它維修的時候有沒有做一些新的改變。"],["張委員啓楷：你們沒有討論這個？院長至少要問過你、問過相關的部門才能夠這樣講吧！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：因為我不是核能的專家，也不是權責單位，所以他不會問我。"],["張委員啓楷：所以對於新核能的定義你不清楚？你個人覺得如果核二、核三在安全的狀況下要重啟……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：新的核能，就我的了解有很多新的技術在發展，除了SMR以外，事實上還有像Bill Gates投資的，他是用新技術把輻射下降，但新的危險是它比較容易爆炸，這是種新的技術。還有我們看到非常多核融合的技術在各個研究單位都在進行中，所以就我們的了解，新的技術都還是……我個人是有一些了解。"],["張委員啓楷：所以你是贊成，你也肯定這種比較安全的小型核能，對不對？現在只是說它的成本真的很高。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我比較保守來看小型核能，我沒有贊成，我比較保守看這件事。"],["張委員啓楷：你是比較保守的？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：原因很簡單……"],["張委員啓楷：你的看法跟院長可能就不一樣了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這倒不是。委員想想看，現在要設變電所，鄰避設施的抗爭就很大了，如果我們去設一個SMR，它幾乎是以社區為主，其實那個抗爭是……我們不知道可行性高不高，我覺得……"],["張委員啓楷：你認為小型核能還要再觀察就對了？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我是覺得保守看待，因為它要民眾能接受在他們家附近，它沒辦法放在偏遠的地方。"],["張委員啓楷：好，主委，你跟院長要再溝通一下，因為他一直在強調用新核能，那只有兩種可能性：一種是你現在有疑慮的，他認為要，那到底裡面有什麼問題要把它解釋清楚。第二個，對民眾來講，到底什麼時候可以用到這所謂的新核能？是核二、核三重啟，還是你、院長一直在講的小型核能，好不好？這個要努力。","我最後問一個今天最關鍵的，立法院的委員會已經開始在審要讓核電廠可以延役或者重啟，今天公聽會已經開始了，我要請教主委你個人的意見。你贊不贊成讓我們的核電廠，如果在安全的狀況之下，核二廠的1號機、2號機，核三廠的1號機可以重新啟動，或者讓核三廠的2號機可以延用，你個人的意見是怎麼樣？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我個人對這個領域沒有那麼熟悉，但是我尊重各種法律的意見。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你是國家發展的領頭羊，電力非常重要，我今天用了很多時間去講核電對我們國家發展的重要性，它關係到穩定，關係到電價可以不要漲，所以我覺得這部分國發會不只是要關心，也要提出你們的規畫，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，我們會跟經濟部討論一下。"],["張委員啓楷：我們來努力，國發會有責任，4月1號能不能……最近電價審議委員會馬上就要開了，如果提到我們剛剛講的，好好地穩定使用便宜的核電，連美國都開口了，然後綠電趕快賣出去，不要高價買低價賣，來滿足我們的企業，讓價格降下來。只要解決核能的問題還有綠電這個問題，我們不只不用漲價，甚至還可以降價，一起努力，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。我們現在請陳超明委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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8跟1955等相關的可以直接對得上移工朋友的一個資訊聯繫的一個管道我們來做這個推波提醒他什麼樣情況下包括買工費是不應該的不管是在"},{"start":178.2,"end":204.519,"text":"他期滿或者是續聘等等都不會有買工費的這樣子的額外付出的需求我們過去這一段時間推播了94次透過Line Ad直接跟個別的移工朋友做這樣的訊息的傳遞那這個部分我們會持續來精進來辦理所以要講清楚說明白否則的話人家會誤會說那只有這樣子的可是這個基本上概念上又不相同那現今台灣移工總人數"},{"start":205.97,"end":228.19,"text":"大概在91萬那其中行方不明的大概事實上是9萬所以將近1%那社福類的移工事實上需求是跟供給裡面大概事實上是大缺工的狀態可是製造業平均每月找工作的移工人數大概是2183人可是真正工作需求只有805人所以在這種狀況裡面 聘僱期間轉換"},{"start":231.753,"end":243.899,"text":"雇主的合法工作非常難找那再加上九萬名隨時要找的工作的刑方不明的移工非法移工也有大量的非法工作的一些需求這邊就會呈現一個"},{"start":246.518,"end":264.008,"text":"買工 廢那個詐騙能夠橫行的非法市場所以想問部長你過去相當注重甚至也非常關注移工的一個保護議題你上任後對於這樣子的社會情境有什麼推動改變的想法"},{"start":265.253,"end":292.227,"text":"跟委員說明當然我們不希望看到這種買工費的狀況所以我在當委員的時候很在意所以包括我們現在也希望透過更多的方式來協助這個比方說移工假如他要轉換僱主的話然後怎麼樣子能夠更順暢然後減少中間買工費的狀況這都是我們其實現在在做的所以我們其實現在也有部分的就會負責針對轉換僱主的做法其實做了一些精進"},{"start":297.082,"end":318.96,"text":"可是還是發生了嘛那桃園市政府就業執訓服務處裡邊將移工轉換雇主業務外包所以得標廠商呢 聘僱了一個越南籍的女性那L小姐呢 擔任該中心的雙語諮詢服務的時候協助移工線上求職登記可是這個L小姐"},{"start":319.801,"end":337.592,"text":"竟然涉嫌向移工收取買工費那前後收取4次不法所得22萬那最後當然是被以詐欺罪起訴所以想問像這樣的一個案子在去年3月到8月間發生那桃園地檢署12月也起訴勞動部知情嗎"},{"start":340.798,"end":370.029,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我們有掌握到這個資訊那陳儒委員剛所講的他是一個桃園市政府委外的一個廠商的一個所屬員工但是因為基本上是由我們政府委外所以我們這邊政府責任還是無法迴避所以在整個案子發生之後呢第一個當事人當然就除了解雇之外我們也移送司法單位去做這個部分的一個追查責任的一個追查同時我們也把他過去曾經經手過的其他申請案件有沒有類似的一個情形我們也做了一個"},{"start":370.529,"end":395.085,"text":"清查避免說有其他人是我們沒有察覺到的那同時我們也檢討整個就業中心他的一個服務的一個流程包括那個環境硬體環境我們都加強這個各國語言的一個揭示在這邊接受的服務是免費的那去透過這個SOP的檢討跟這個環境的一個友善化跟這個多元資訊的提供的方式希望能夠杜絕以後這種事情再次發生"},{"start":395.905,"end":425.363,"text":"不過也是經過這個案子我們知道買工費的一個詐騙可能觸犯刑法是犯罪行為面對這種犯罪行為的話勞動部不能夠用行政處罰去輕輕的放過所以應該主動移送檢察官部長你同意這樣子的做法嗎我覺得該遵守相關的法規這個我想沒有什麼迴避的空間希望你們也是比照因為我們現在看到勞動部自己查核的"},{"start":425.942,"end":443.961,"text":"並沒有減送那我覺得這可能要注意所以百密有一疏桃園市政府委外廠商人員涉嫌到向轉換登記移工的收取買工費被害人竟然在NGO團體提醒之後才"},{"start":445.076,"end":456.963,"text":"發現自己原來是受騙可是我們的發展署委外標案也很多的時候去年這些服務案件佔總量的8.4%經費佔51.17%所以今年到3月為止佔10%經費佔19.28%所以本席認為勞動部對這些委外廠商平日是不是有強加管理特別是在對於承辦人員的"},{"start":472.975,"end":475.265,"text":"連結的要求 請問管理機制是什麼"},{"start":478.223,"end":505.34,"text":"公務委員報告我們在跟廠商坐在一個勞務委外的一個過程當中對於他的品質管理除了有廠商只帶督導人員來做管理之外我們在整個發案署本身包括我們在事務中心跟我們的公立救福機構也要有我們自己的這個公務人員來做這個部分的一個把關所以他們有沒有照這個程序來走以及每一個案件到時候他的在資訊系統上面登錄是不是一致的這個部分我們都會來做一個品質上的一個確保"},{"start":506.17,"end":527.486,"text":"希望真的能夠保障到我們的移工的權益所以勞動部的統計2023年查劑並裁罰的案件大概有10件成功率大概三分之一而已2023年是13件今年至今只有一件所以想問是這應該是勞動部比較被動的等待檢舉"},{"start":528.607,"end":538.605,"text":"如果看這樣子結果的話那被動效果就是不好所以請問勞動部有徵求移工服務團體就業服務工會合作來鼓勵通報的規劃嗎"},{"start":540.799,"end":568.75,"text":"跟委員報告我們現在主要除了被動受理檢舉我們主動的去查查的部分有針對如果過去曾經他在服務的過程當中或者這個在服務的過程當中有出現被申訴或者是被檢舉的這種我們把它列為高風險名單去加強去要求包括也透過評鑑的等地如果他評鑑的等地狀況比較差的這邊我們在做查核跟關懷的那個頻率會拉高希望透過這樣的方式來主動去"},{"start":569.71,"end":597.108,"text":"去嚇阻這樣子的可能性那另外對於移工跟有指導移工個人蒐證協助移工檢舉的機制嗎我們目前在1955的部分本來就可以接受這個同意的相關的一個協助所以他如果在提出這樣的申訴的時候我們其實有人員可以幫助他做這個處理另外他如果在進行這個司法或者是調查的一個程序的部分同樣也可以透過我們的這樣一個服務來做連結"},{"start":597.748,"end":617.715,"text":"我覺得要讓他們了解他們才有辦法來進一步的去做申訴所以我覺得這也是你們應該要做的所以最後大家期待就是我覺得買工費的詐騙觸犯刑法所以查獲應該要移送減掉還有建立委外案件的時候金主人員應該連結的管理機制要建制"},{"start":618.291,"end":643.266,"text":"還有查緝不法跟藥公司協力合作通報這個要做移工的修正這個可能還是要教導他們他畢竟來到我們這個國家那他如果受到一些傷害的時候可能有一些怎麼去做所以那個檢舉的指導要做所以請勞動部兩週內把具體規劃的書面資料給我這邊 不知道部長這邊OK嗎應該是可以的好 謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":358,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時37分）麻煩我們的勞動部長，還有我們的勞動力發展署的陳世昌署長。"],["主席：部長還有代署長。"],["林委員月琴：部長、署長早。臺灣我們的詐欺犯罪，事實上問題非常嚴重，包括91萬名的在臺移工也成為詐騙者眼中的肥羊，民間團體調查，我們的保守推估，移工被詐騙的金額至少新臺幣17億，受詐騙的移工當中，從事製造跟工程的受騙金額大概1萬3,145元，看護的移工大概是5,596元，所以平均下來大概8,000元。為了防堵詐騙，行政院自111年6月開始實施新世代打詐的執行策略行動綱領，的確112年我們晉升到1.5版，113年7月三讀通過打詐新四法，113年的11月28日通過了打詐綱領的2.0版，所以這期間勞動部也發新聞稿說，移工一站式的服務響應打詐，要避免移工誤信詐騙集團，要防堵買工費的詐騙，可是我們看到一站式的服務對象事實上是新聘外籍家庭看護工和家庭幫傭，而防詐不是這項服務的重點，所以這樣子講的話，以一站式的服務宣傳防詐是不是根本就牛頭不對馬嘴？所以請問一下，勞動部究竟有什麼樣的防詐政策？"],["陳代理署長世昌：跟委員報告，在整個行政院打詐相關的權責分工上，勞動部有它要處理的，就是有關識別詐騙資訊這樣子的工作，所以針對移工朋友如何能夠提高他對於這些詐騙資訊的敏感度，這個是我們要做的一個重點。目前我們除了剛剛委員提到的針對一站式的家庭移工的部分，我們有做這樣子的宣導工作之外，我們也透過LINE＠跟1955等可以直接對得上移工朋友的資訊聯繫管道，我們來做這個推播，提醒他什麼樣情況之下，包括買工費是不應該的，不管是在他期滿或者是續聘等等，都不會有買工費這樣額外付出的一個需求。過去這一段時間我們推播了94次，透過LINE＠直接跟個別的移工朋友做這樣的訊息傳遞，這個部分我們會持續精進辦理。"],["林委員月琴：對，所以要講清楚、說明白，否則人家會誤會只有這樣子的……可是這個基本上、概念上又不相同嘛。現今臺灣移工總人數大概在91萬……"],["陳代理署長世昌：81.8萬。"],["林委員月琴：其中行方不明的大概有9萬，所以將近1%；社福類移工的需求跟供給面，事實上是大缺工的狀態，而製造業平均每月找工作的移工人數大概是2,183人，可是真正的工作需求只有805人，所以在這種狀況裡面，聘僱期間轉換雇主的合法工作非常難找，再加上9萬名隨時要找工作的行方不明移工、非法移工也有大量非法工作的需求，這便呈現一個買工費詐騙犯能夠橫行的非法市場。所以想問部長，你過去相當注重甚至也非常關注移工的保護議題，你上任後對於這樣的社會情境有什麼推動改變的想法？"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，當然我們不希望看到這種買工費的狀況，所以我在當委員的時候很在意，我們現在也希望透過更多的方式來協助。比方說，移工假如要轉換雇主的話，怎麼樣能夠更順暢，然後減少中間買工費的狀況，這都是我們現在在做的，所以我們現在也有部分的就業服務站針對轉換雇主的作法做了一些精進。"],["林委員月琴：好，可是還是發生了，桃園市政府就業職訓服務處將移工轉換雇主業務外包，所以得標廠商聘僱了一個越南籍女性L小姐，擔任該中心的雙語諮詢服務，協助移工做線上求職登記，可是這個L小姐竟然涉嫌向移工收取買工費，前後收取4次，不法所得22萬，最後當然是被以詐欺罪起訴。所以想請問，像這樣的一個案子在去年3月到8月間發生，桃園地檢署12月也起訴了，勞動部知情嗎？"],["陳代理署長世昌：跟委員報告，這個部分我們有掌握到資訊，誠如委員剛剛所講的，他是桃園市政府委外廠商的所屬員工，但是基本上這是由我們政府委外，所以政府的責任還是無法迴避。在整個案子發生之後，第一個，當事人當然除了解僱之外，我們也移送司法單位去做這個部分的責任追查，同時也針對他過去曾經經手過的其他申請案件是否有類似的情形做了清查，避免有其他人是我們沒有察覺到的。同時我們也檢討整個就業中心的服務流程，包括他的環境、硬體環境，我們都加強各國語言的揭示，在這邊接受的服務是免費的，透過這個SOP的檢討、環境的友善化以及提供多元資訊的方式，希望能夠杜絕以後這種事情再次發生。"],["林委員月琴：不過也是經過這個案子，我們知道買工費的詐騙可能觸犯刑法，是犯罪行為。面對這種犯罪行為，勞動部不能夠用行政處罰輕輕地放過，應該主動移送檢察官。部長，你同意這樣的作法嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我覺得該遵守相關的法規，我想這個沒有什麼迴避的空間。"],["林委員月琴：希望你們也能夠比照，因為我們現在看到勞動部自己查核的並沒有檢送，我覺得這個可能要注意，所以百密有一疏啦！桃園市政府委外廠商的人員涉嫌向轉換登記移工收取買工費，被害人竟然在NGO團體提醒之後才發現自己原來是受騙。我們發展署的委外標案也很多，去年這些服務案件占總量的8.4%，經費占51.17%，今年到3月為止占10%，經費占19.28%，勞動部對於這些委外廠商平日是不是有詳加管理？特別是對於承辦人員廉潔的要求，請問管理機制是什麼？"],["陳代理署長世昌：跟委員報告，我們在跟廠商做勞務委外的過程當中，對於他的品質管理，除了由廠商指派督導人員來管理之外，在整個發展署本身，包括我們在事務中心跟我們的公立就服機構，也要有我們自己的公務人員來做這個部分的把關，所以他們有沒有照這個程序來走，以及每一個案件到時候在資訊系統上面登錄是不是一致的，這個部分我們都會做品質上的確保。"],["林委員月琴：好，希望真的能夠保障到移工的權益。","根據勞動部的統計，2023年查緝並裁罰的案件大概有10件，成功率大概三分之一而已，2024年是13件，今年至今只有1件。如果看這樣的結果，應該是勞動部比較被動的等待檢舉，被動的效果就是不好。請問勞動部有徵求移工服務團體、就業服務公會合作來鼓勵通報的規劃嗎？"],["陳代理署長世昌：跟委員報告，我們現在除了被動受理檢舉之外，其實我們主動去查察的部分也有針對，如果過去他在服務的過程當中曾經出現被申訴或者是被檢舉的這種情況，我們把他列為高風險名單去加強、去要求，包括也透過評鑑的等第，如果其評鑑等第的狀況是比較差的，我們在做查核跟關懷的頻率會拉高，希望透過這樣的方式主動嚇阻這樣的可能性。"],["林委員月琴：另外，對於移工有指導移工個人蒐證、協助移工檢舉的機制嗎？"],["陳代理署長世昌：我們目前在1955的部分，本來就可以接受通譯相關的協助，所以他在提出這樣申訴的時候，我們其實有人員可以幫助他做這個處理。另外，他如果在進行司法或者是調查程序的部分，同樣也可以透過我們這樣的服務來連結。"],["林委員月琴：我覺得要讓他們了解，他們才有辦法進一步去做申訴，所以我覺得這也是你們應該要做的。","最後大家期待，我覺得買工費的詐騙觸犯刑法，所以查獲應該要移送檢調，還要建立委外案件進駐人員廉潔管理機制，然後查緝不法要公私協力合作通報，這個要做，而移工的蒐證，這個可能還是要教導他們，畢竟他們來到我們這個國家，他如果受到一些傷害的時候，可能會有一些動作要怎麼去做，所以檢舉的指導要做。請勞動部兩週內把具體規劃的書面資料提供給我，不知道部長這邊OK嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：應該是可以的。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請廖偉翔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra 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有請顧部長有請顧部長 謝謝"},{"start":11.351,"end":31.9,"text":"部長早安部長 今年來中國對國軍進行滲透的情形是非常的嚴重所以日前賴清德總統就宣布要恢復軍事審判制度也就是說現役的軍人如果觸犯了陸海空軍刑法的話刑法的軍事犯罪就會由軍事法庭來做審理當然這個議題這幾天引起了很多的討論"},{"start":36.502,"end":65.291,"text":"那其實在這個當年2013年的時候也就是因為洪仲秋案引發了這個對這個軍中人權還有階級管理失當跟軍事審判調查權的這個重新的這個檢視那歷經了兩次的這個群眾運動促進促成了這個立法院的修法也就是在陳平時期呢軍人犯罪呢會回歸到一般的司法機關來做這個審理那部長您是當年洪仲秋案的這個律師我想外界對您的這個"},{"start":66.891,"end":77.296,"text":"呃 態度呢是非常的這個關心那我有看到日前你在受到這個媒體訪問的時候有提到就是說與其說是恢復這個軍審呢倒不如說是要來重新呃 訂定一個全新的這個軍審的這個呃 這個制度喔也就是說這個軍法官呢呃 不會受到這個外部包含這個國防部的這個干涉要維護這一個呃 審查的這個獨立性所以呃 本席很好奇喔"},{"start":94.525,"end":122.422,"text":"那未來到底我們的軍事法庭也好或是軍事檢察署也好會是獨立於國防部之外嗎還是說未來的這個軍事法院或是軍事檢察署他會納入一般的司法體系之下這部分有想法跟規劃嗎請問部長現在的軍事法院是一個在國防部底下的一個準"},{"start":123.652,"end":150.818,"text":"對 它是略屬於國防部隊它沒有一個法定的法的效力所以大法官之前對於軍事審判的這個軍法官是不是具有法官的獨立性這一點有所質疑是所以在這一點上面我們認為呢要確保軍法官的獨立性是很重要的所以我才說要設要將它提高到法的位階成為軍事法院組織法"},{"start":152.658,"end":164.333,"text":"那我現在進一步想說還有一個審檢分立的問題也就是說我們一般強調是說檢察官是負責偵查追溯那審判是負責這個個案審理"},{"start":167.797,"end":185.627,"text":"那這兩個之間也要分立不屬於同一個體系所以是不是也要研議建構一個軍事檢察署的組織法那這樣子的一個兩個組織法把它提高到法的位階來之後呢"},{"start":187.409,"end":205.567,"text":"這個先確保這個組織面的一個獨立性那另外人事的獨立性的部分呢可能要訂定一個軍馬官人事條例也就是說軍馬官的這個甄選從甄選一直到養成然後後來到這個他對他的身份保障"},{"start":206.388,"end":229.113,"text":"然後乃至於到這個相關的評鑑跟淘汰都要引進外部的機制也就是說他不會是由這個國防部的內部的人士來管理而是透過一個我引進外部單位多元的一個審議委員會來公平的一個確保他的這個"},{"start":231.395,"end":254.863,"text":"獨立性的一個情況之下來做相關的這些包括對他的這個養成也好包括對他的這個身份保障也好包括對他的這個相關的評鑑淘汰也好都不受這個國安部本身的一個控制那這樣才能夠確保他的獨立性這是現在的想法"},{"start":255.143,"end":274.008,"text":"所以部長您的意思簡單來講換言之就是說未來我們的軍事法院軍事檢察署是完全獨立在國防部之外不像過去是像過去我們的軍事法院其實是隸屬於國防部就是完全要獨立以前是在國防部的鞭子底下可是我們軍事審判法其實主管單位還是國防部不是嗎"},{"start":280.31,"end":301.966,"text":"沒有 審判法它是一種程序法它不屬於司法院啊軍事審判法它是一種操作性的概念所以軍事審判法的重點是在於它軍事審判法裡面的內容它必須要維持它裡面內容的程序的正當性所以它是一個操作性的法律那由人"},{"start":302.808,"end":320.255,"text":"人來操作這個程序的這個法律的時候那個程序面的部分就要確保他的這個正當性那這樣的一個正當性的一個操作也就是說軍事審判其實他是一種特殊形態的一種審判的一個體制但是他還是要維護"},{"start":321.616,"end":341.438,"text":"維持住憲法所要求的政黨法律程序的要求所以我們會把它修改到就是說跟至少要跟憲刑的這個刑訴法相關的一些政黨法律程序要求要有一致這樣子那譬如說有舉幾個例子第一個譬如說"},{"start":343.099,"end":361.568,"text":"階級審判,過去的軍事審判法是說這個衛官以下是由地方軍事法院然後校官以上是由高等軍事法院那事實上這個也被大法官認為這個是有違這個階級管轄是有違憲的一個部分那這個部分我們會加以修改"},{"start":362.108,"end":390.964,"text":"所以我們還是會尋向一般法院像我們譬如說三級三審的方式來進行未來也是會這樣子因為我有看到說未來會用這個法律審或是這個市市審來做這個輔助市市審跟上市審的救濟的部分應該是這樣就是說按照現在即使有一些相關的規定譬如說違反效忠職者國家罪這個部分呢就等同於這個叛亂罪等等的那這些罪在一般的司法機關裡面也是隸屬於高等"},{"start":391.824,"end":420.347,"text":"軍事法院為第一審然後之後上訴審那最終審可能是到這個司法院的最高法院那所以他可能是一個審計那一般的其他案件可能是在地方軍事法院那地方軍事法院審完之後應該是要如何這個我們還要跟社會各界做一個溝通來確認到底是幾個市市審來進行那就這個部分呢還有要考量是不是要這個"},{"start":421.904,"end":439.979,"text":"有一些這個審判的一個設計上面要這個能源的組成要如何這個我們也都要已經在做相關的規劃那我們要跟司法院跟法務部還要再做溝通是看起來這個要恢復這個軍事審判好像還沒有那麼快因為我看到說我們還要制定"},{"start":440.579,"end":453.511,"text":"軍法官的人事條例還有這個軍事法院的組織法我們還要訂定軍事警察署的組織法等等還要跟社會對話還要跟司法院這邊來做溝通那是不是說短期內這個還有一段時間還有一段路要走"},{"start":454.139,"end":479.991,"text":"是跟委員報告我們就是說沒有辦法定出一個時間的原因就在於是說因為這些都要跟這個我們草案現在基本上有一個初稿那出來之後我們要跟專家學者來做諮商諮商以後我們要跟社會各界做溝通然後還要送到大院來進行審議所以那這個中間還要涉及到相關的一個"},{"start":481.271,"end":486.855,"text":"因為我們畢竟是11年了都沒有這個能量已經逐漸萎縮所以我們現在要恢復的話要重新啟動其實還是一個大工程重新啟動是一個坦白講是一個大工程"},{"start":511.852,"end":537.672,"text":"好 那還有一個 給我一點時間 主席再一分鐘因為我有看到司法院他有統計說近三年來每一年大概有三百多件起訴的軍事案件我想請教一下這三百多件的這些起訴的新的案件軍事案件到底它的類型是屬於哪些它的樣態是什麼樣子這個部分我們會即將請司法機關提供案件的類型跟數量所以這部分的話 部長您這也不是很清楚"},{"start":537.892,"end":539.975,"text":"因為我們本來想了解涉密還是供迭案還是怎麼樣因為我覺得這個數字一年300多件其實還蠻多的"},{"start":550.358,"end":577.84,"text":"因為我們現在要確定的是屬於這個入行法第二篇的軍人犯植物上之罪所以比較著重在這一塊的部分那一般的刑事案件還是歸司法機關來處理所以要恢復軍人犯植物上之罪這個部分到底是有多少類型是有多少我們會再跟司法院來做一個OK我就想這部分如果說您這邊有拿到資料或是我們辦公室可能會跟司法院要"},{"start":578.521,"end":588.82,"text":"掉這個資料因為我覺得對這個案件一年三百多件的這個洗漱的軍事案件是讓本席真的是比較好奇到底是哪些案件OK 好 以上謝謝好 謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":186,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時36分）謝謝主席，有請顧部長。"],["主席：有請顧部長，謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長早安。部長，近年來中國對國軍進行滲透的情形非常嚴重，所以日前賴清德總統就宣布要恢復軍事審判制度，也就是說，現役的軍人如果觸犯了陸海空軍刑法的軍事犯罪就會由軍事法庭審理。當然，這個議題在這幾天引起了很多討論，其實在2013年當年就是因為洪仲丘案引發了對軍中人權還有階級管理失當，跟軍事審判調查權的重新檢視，歷經了兩次的群眾運動，促成了立法院的修法，也就是在承平時期，軍人犯罪會回歸到一般的司法機關審理。部長，您是當年洪仲丘案的律師，我想外界對您的態度是非常關心，我有看到日前您受到媒體訪問的時候有提到，與其說是恢復軍審，倒不如說是重新訂定一個全新的軍審制度，也就是說，軍法官不會受到外部，包含國防部的干涉，要維護審查的獨立性，所以本席也很好奇，未來我們的軍事法庭也好，或是軍事檢查署也好，會是獨立於國防部之外的嗎？還是說未來的軍事法院或軍事檢查署會納入一般的司法體系之下？請問部長，這部分有想法跟規劃嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：現在的軍事法院是在國防部底下的一個準組織的……"],["羅委員美玲：對，它是隸屬於國防部。"],["顧部長立雄：它沒有一個法定的、法的效力，所以大法官之前對於軍事審判的軍法官是不是具有法官的獨立性這一點有所質疑。"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["顧部長立雄：所以在這一點上面，我們認為要確保軍法官的獨立性是很重要的，所以我才說要將它提高到法的位階，成為軍事法院組織法。"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["顧部長立雄：我現在進一步講，還有一個審檢分立的問題，也就是說，我們一般強調檢察官是負責偵查追訴的。"],["羅委員美玲：對。"],["顧部長立雄：審判是負責個案審理的，這兩個之間也要分立，不屬於同一個體系，所以是不是也要研議建講一個軍事檢察署的組織法？這樣的兩個組織法，把它提高到法的位階之後，先確保組織面的獨立性，另外人事獨立性的部分，可能要訂定一個軍法官人事條例，也就是說，軍法官的甄選，從甄選一直到養成，然後到對他身分的保障，乃至於到相關的評鑑跟淘汰都要引進外部的機制，也就是說，他不會是由國防部內部的人事來管理，而是透過引進外部單位的一個多元的審議委員會，在公平地確保他獨立性的情況之下來做相關的這些，包括對他的養成也好，包括對他身分的保障也好，包括對他的相關評鑑、淘汰也好，都不受國防部本身的控制，這樣才能確保他的獨立性，這是現在的想法。"],["羅委員美玲：所以部長您的意思，簡單來講，換言之就是未來我們的軍事法院、軍事檢察署是完全獨立在國防部之外，不像過去我們的軍事法院其實是隸屬於國防部，所以是完全要獨立的。"],["顧部長立雄：對，以前是在國防部的編制底下，它現在必須要獨立。"],["羅委員美玲：可是我們的軍事審判法其實主管單位還是國防部，不是嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：沒有，審判法是一種程序法，它是一個……"],["羅委員美玲：它不屬於司法院啊！"],["顧部長立雄：軍事審判法是一種操作性的概念，所以軍事審判法的重點是在軍事審判法裡面的內容，它必須要維持裡面內容的程序正當性，所以它是一個操作性的法律，由人來操作這個程序的法律時，那個程序面的部分就要確保它的正當性，那這樣的一個正當性操作，也就是說軍事審判其實是一種特殊形態的審判體制，但是它還是要維持住憲法對正當法律程序的要求，所以我們至少會把它修改到跟現行刑事訴訟法對相關正當法律程序的要求一致，譬如我舉幾個例子，第一個，階級審判，過去的軍事審判法是說，尉官以下是由地方軍事法院，校官以上是由高等軍事法院，但事實上這個也被大法官認為階級管轄是有違憲的部分，這個部分我們會加以修改。"],["羅委員美玲：所以我們還是會循一般法院，比如說三級三審的方式來進行，未來也是會這樣子……因為我有看到，未來會用法律審或事實審來做輔助……"],["顧部長立雄：事實審跟上訴救濟的部分應該是這樣的，現在即使有一些相關的規定，比如說違反效忠國家職責罪就等同於叛亂罪等等，這些罪在一般司法機關裡也是隸屬於高等軍事法院為第一審，然後上訴審，最終審可能到司法院的最高法院，所以可能是一個審級，一般的其他案件可能是在地方軍事法院審理，審完之後應該是要如何，我們還要跟社會各界做溝通確認，到底進行幾個事實審？還要考量是不是在審判的設計上，人員要如何組成？這些我們已經在做相關的規劃，還要跟司法院及法務部溝通。"],["羅委員美玲：看起來要恢復軍事審判好像還沒有那麼快，因為我們要制定軍法官的人事條例、軍事法院組織法及軍事檢察署的組織法等等，還要跟社會對話，跟司法院溝通，那是不是短期內還有一段時間、一段路要走？"],["顧部長立雄：是，跟委員報告，我們沒有辦法訂出一個時間……"],["羅委員美玲：一個時程。"],["顧部長立雄：原因在於，基本上這些草案初稿出來之後，我們要跟專家學者諮商、要跟社會各界溝通，還要送到大院進行審議，這中間還涉及到相關的軍法官，不管是檢察官，或者是從事審判的法官的養成，都還需要跟司法院及法務部溝通，的確還需要一些時間，因為我們畢竟是11年都沒有了，能量已經逐漸萎縮，所以我們現在要恢復……"],["羅委員美玲：要重新啟動，其實還是一個大工程。"],["顧部長立雄：坦白講，重新啟動是一個大工程。"],["羅委員美玲：OK！好，主席再給我1分鐘。","我看到司法院有統計近3年來，每1年大概有三百多件起訴的軍事案件，想請教到底這三百多件起訴軍事案件的類型是屬於哪些？樣態是什麼？知道嗎？"],["顧部長立雄：這個部分我們即將請司法機關提供案件的類型跟數量。"],["羅委員美玲：部長，這部分您不是很清楚，可是……"],["顧部長立雄：我們現在……"],["羅委員美玲：我們本來想了解是涉密呢？共諜案呢？還是怎麼樣？因為我覺得一年三百多件這個數字其實還滿多的。"],["顧部長立雄：現在要確定的是屬於「陸海空軍刑法」第二編的軍人犯職務上之罪，所以比較著重在這一塊，一般的刑事案件還是歸司法機關處理。"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["顧部長立雄：所以要恢復軍人犯職務上之罪，到底是有多少類型、有多少數量，我們會再跟司法院做瞭解。"],["羅委員美玲：OK！如果您這邊有拿到資料，或是我們辦公室可能會跟司法院調這個資料，因為一年三百多件的起訴軍事案件讓本席真的是比較好奇，到底是哪些案件？OK，以上謝謝。"],["顧部長立雄：好，謝謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。現在請馬文君委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":316,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-35-4","speakers":["沈伯洋","羅美玲","馬文君","王定宇","陳冠廷","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","翁曉玲","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","張啓楷","徐巧芯","李坤城","邱志偉","蔡易餘","林憶君","蘇清泉","王鴻薇"],"page_start":263,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142801_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期外交及國防委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長顧立雄報告業務概況暨「四年期國防總檢討」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1142801_00016"}}},{"id":"159323","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159323","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b89034a6259b3e360dcea595bacfac0e4703218e34103c684f06b5fab5b46a0e585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:32:25 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派到所以他沒有辦法那麼多人過去但是有沒有可能我們比如說我們要從美國挖一些他們的這些科技人才他可能是台籍的或者是台裔的那有沒有可能這些人就不回來了直接就"},{"start":325.333,"end":352.125,"text":"就留在美國工作留在美國的台積電工作那個除非是他原來就在製造業待的人才會過去因為以美國的工作條件裡面科技業跟金融業都比製造業來的性質優渥所以其實沒有那麼好競爭所以你對於人才流失這一塊你不擔心但是你對於台灣的整體的人才培育這一塊你擔不擔心你覺得我們有沒有什麼更好的方法可以留住這些好人才"},{"start":353.084,"end":378.995,"text":"基本上台灣的人才外流的並沒有比例是並沒有那麼高那我們因為主要是台灣主要是提供的就業機會比別人多造成我們現在事業率是歷史性低的3.4左右那多數人才都是在大概一畢業就很容易找到工作所以台灣的就業環境非常好反而我們在今年年初到美國去攬財的時候就發現很多台灣人是有想回來"},{"start":379.795,"end":404.458,"text":"所以我們現在辦的幾場說明會大概有將近一千六百人左右參加我們的說明會所以你覺得這些人可以回來嗎這個主委啊我接下來要問您的大概就是跟攬財有關整個經濟的展望你們預估今年的成長率會超過3%對不對但是整個國際的局勢是不穩定的"},{"start":405.018,"end":425.738,"text":"所以你如何確定你的經濟成長率是可以超過3%那您剛剛講的這些比如說您的報告有一個五大信賴產業這個大概是跟AI有相關政府的投資跟政府的輔導跟我們整個要投入的人力物力財力在總預算面臨被砍成這樣的時候請問你們要怎麼運作"},{"start":429.859,"end":440.005,"text":"的確在我們的預算裡面受到傷害比較大是在產業處我們產業處刪的是最多產業處總共被刪多少錢?你現在計算出來了嗎?我們被刪了5700萬左右"},{"start":447.25,"end":462.439,"text":"那這個是我們現在也希望盡快如果是解凍的部分我們能夠看看盡快能解凍那我們能夠來往下運作那但是在這個情況下我們還是會積極的推動整個產業的發展我們現在也會積極往這個軟體平台等等的去發展那我們也在規劃我們新的這個產業規劃所以我們會在現有的環境下盡量去"},{"start":474.386,"end":492.404,"text":"主委南北区域不平衡南北的这个区域失衡的状态我想你应该很清楚对对不对我们讲了五大信赖产业那现在的整个投资比例还是北部偏高中南部的厂商其实是偏少"},{"start":493.308,"end":512.197,"text":"那這一點你們要怎麼樣強化要怎麼樣去做我們現在訂了幾個措施你的產業處錢被砍了那國發會要到南部去設立另外的辦公室也沒錢了沒場地了南部行政中心大概現在也只剩下非常非常基本的運作業務費被砍了96%請問你們要怎麼做"},{"start":516.474,"end":541.772,"text":"我們有幾個第一個我們正在商界經濟部在亞灣的辦公室讓我們的國發基金可以進駐那第二個部分是我們現在會積極地跟幾個部會推動亞灣的部分尤其在AI在暖體的部分尤其是搭配未來鴻海在那邊設點跟Media的合作那我們會積極地推動以暖體為核心讓台灣的暖體產業的"},{"start":544.013,"end":559.814,"text":"核心變道在高雄那我們現在大概朝這個方向在積極的去做這個主要我要跟您談的就是說我覺得在區域平衡上面其實現在就像您剛剛報告裡頭有特別提到南部尤其是高雄"},{"start":561.716,"end":588.496,"text":"台南高雄其實跟北部已經形成兩個科技中心已經是兩個科技的大的產業聚落但是南部相對起來還是在正在起步的階段其實需要給予更多的關心甚至給予更多的協助讓更多的科技產業AI產業能夠進駐到南部來緩解北部的這個擁塞"},{"start":590.237,"end":612.01,"text":"所以我覺得在整體的規劃上面你們現在講都是說你會盡量協助啦你們會盡力去推動啦但是實際推動的計畫是什麼我們到目前為止沒有看到那因為我的質詢時間已經到了主委我可不可以請你們再送一份比較細部的資料給本席好不好"},{"start":612.27,"end":623.96,"text":"好的 我們會強化在高雄的發展至少讓我知道一下你們未來在高雄的整體的這一些產業規劃發展到底會用在什麼地方 到底會怎麼做好的 好嗎 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":105,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時32分）謝謝主席，我是不是請一下國發會劉主委？"],["主席：劉主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：邱委員早。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委早。主委，最近台積電到美國投資這件事情，不管是在臺灣或者是在美國，都引起相當大的關注。尤其在臺灣，我們自己本國有非常多、非常多的討論，大部分的討論聚焦都會說台積電到美國去投資，未來是不是會變成美積電？我其實一直覺得就整個商業的立場或者是在整個半導體發展的戰略考量上面，台積電是不是應該要走出去，應該是要布局國際、布局全球，不管是在日本或者是在美國或者是在其他的地方！我不知道國發會在這件事情上面的看法是什麼？因為大家問了經濟部郭部長、問了卓榮泰院長，好像還沒有人來問過您。主委，我覺得站在國家發展的策略、國家發展的角度上，我想聽一下您的看法。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們總統有一個經濟日不落國的願景，我們也是基於這個願景，希望臺灣的企業都能夠立足臺灣，進軍全球的市場，每一個企業……其實我在企業待很久，企業都希望自己能夠國際化，因為國際化才有國際化的市場，臺灣科技業能有今天，主要是世界提供我們這麼大的市場，我們才有今天，否則我們是非常微小的企業。","另外，我想跟委員報告一下。NVIDIA來這邊設點，它不會變成臺灣NVIDIA，也不會洩漏NVIDIA的機密；微軟在這邊設了那麼多年，杜邦在這邊這麼多年，他們也沒有洩密過，它也沒有變成臺灣的公司。一樣的，臺灣的企業其實很多像台積電在中國設廠很久，但是沒有一家企業機密外洩，所以我們應該要相信台積電有能力保護自己，也要支持台積電進軍全世界。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委這個論點非常重要，也非常好，可惜在前面這一段時間大概很少聽到您在這一方面的談話。要強化國人對於企業布局國際的宏觀戰略思考跟防杜散播流言的考量，國發會應該要站出來說清楚。您剛剛講到這個部分，比如說NVIDIA到臺灣來設廠，它不會變成臺灣NVIDIA，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以台積電到美國去設廠，我們的關鍵技術其實還是鎖在臺灣，還是鎖在自己核心內圈，它不會變成美積電，就你們整體的管制原則。您前幾天有特別講到台積電到美國投資適用「N-1」的規定，你們會堅守這三大原則，所以這三大原則在台積電到美國去設廠之前，是不是政府已經完全通過所謂的三大管制原則？","第二個，我要請教，台積電現在走向國際，對於人才的需求一定是非常的大量，您擔不擔心臺灣的人才在已經面臨不足的狀態下，會不會又被磁吸過去，一窩蜂的全部往美國跑，那臺灣怎麼辦？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這幾點很快速跟委員報告。第一個，我們跟台積電本來就有溝通，台積電的作法是這樣，它一定要用臺灣的人才跟臺灣的技術，因為他們告訴我臺灣的人才是最好的，所以它每一個最新的製程一定會在臺灣運作到非常順暢才會出去。但是現在一個世代，它一個產品丟出去要6個月才會完成，所以整個磨練過來，至少會經過一年半，最快一年半到兩年，它才會進入穩定期；穩定期才會出去蓋工廠，工廠一蓋又要蓋一年多，所以它會落後臺灣大概將近三年的世代，這個是絕對的。這個不只是政府的管理，當然進到投審會，投審會一定會去管理它，這是確定的。","第二個是人才的部分，美國其實也有限制工作許可證，不會有那麼多人可以派到美國去。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以它沒有辦法讓那麼多人過去，但是有沒有可能……比如說我們要從美國挖一些科技人才，他可能是臺籍的或者是臺裔的，有沒有可能這些人就不回來了？就直接留在美國工作，留在美國的台積電工作？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：除非他原來就待在製造業才會過去，因為以美國的工作條件，科技業跟金融業的薪資都比製造業來得優渥，所以其實沒有那麼好競爭，即使在國外……"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你對於人才流失這一塊，你不擔心？但是你對於臺灣整體的人才培育這一塊，您擔不擔心？你覺得我們有沒有什麼更好的方法，可以留住這些好人才？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：基本上，臺灣人才外流的比例並沒有那麼高，主要是因為臺灣提供的就業機會比別人多，造成我們現在失業率是歷史新低，3.4%左右，多數人才大概一畢業就很容易找到工作，所以臺灣的就業環境非常好。反而我們今年年初到美國去攬才的時候，就發現很多臺灣人想回來，所以我們現在辦了幾場說明會，將近1,600人左右參加我們的說明會，他們在嘗試了解回來臺灣的可能性。"],["邱委員議瑩：你覺得這些人可以回來嗎？主委，我接下來要問的跟攬才有關。關於整個經濟的展望，你們預估今年的成長率會超過3%，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，我們……"],["邱委員議瑩：但是整個國際的局勢是不穩定的，所以你如何確定經濟成長率可以超過3%？您剛剛講的這些，比如說您的報告有一個五大信賴產業，這個大概是跟AI相關，政府的投資跟政府的輔導跟我們整個要投入的人力、物力、財力，在面臨總預算被砍成這樣的時候，請問你們要怎麼運作？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：的確，在我們的預算裡面，受到傷害比較大是在產業處，我們產業處刪的是最多！"],["邱委員議瑩：產業處總共被刪多少錢，你現在計算出來了嗎？可以算得出來嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們被刪了5,700萬左右，我們現在也希望儘快，如果是解凍的部分，我們希望能夠儘快解凍，讓我們能夠往下運作。但即使是在這個情況下，我們還是會積極推動整個產業的發展，現在也會積極往軟體平臺等等去發展，也在規劃新的產業規劃，所以我們會在現有的環境下儘量去做。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委，南北區域不平衡，關於南北區域失衡的狀態，我想你應該很清楚，對不對？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：我們講的五大信賴產業，現在整個投資比例還是北部偏高，中南部的廠商其實是偏少，這一點你們要怎麼樣強化、要怎麼樣去做？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們現在訂定了幾個措施……"],["邱委員議瑩：你們產業處的錢被砍了，國發會要到南部去設立另外的辦公室也沒錢了、沒場地了，南部行政中心現在也只剩下非常非常基本的運作，畢竟業務費被砍了96%，請問你們要怎麼做？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：有幾個部分：第一個，我們正在商借經濟部在亞灣的辦公室，讓國發基金可以進駐；第二個，我們現在會積極地跟幾個部會推動亞灣，尤其在AI、在軟體部分，特別是搭配未來鴻海在那邊設點跟NVIDIA的合作，我們會積極推動以軟體為核心，讓臺灣的軟體產業核心變到高雄，我們現在大概朝這個方向在積極地去做。"],["邱委員議瑩：主委，我要跟您談的是，我覺得在區域平衡上，就像您剛剛報告裡頭有特別提到的，南部尤其是高雄、臺南，高雄跟北部已經形成兩個科技中心，已經是兩個大的科技產業聚落。但是相對起來，南部還是正在起步的階段，需要給予更多的關心，甚至給予更多的協助，讓更多的科技產業、AI產業能夠進駐到南部，以緩解北部的壅塞。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，我們……"],["邱委員議瑩：在整體規劃上面，你們現在都是說會儘量協助、會盡力去推動，但是實際推動的計畫是什麼？我們到目前為止沒有看到。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們……"],["邱委員議瑩：因為我的質詢時間已經到了，主委，我可不可以請你們再送一份比較……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，我送一份資料給您。"],["邱委員議瑩：細部的資料給本席，好不好？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的，我們會強化在高雄的發展，目前有一些計畫。"],["邱委員議瑩：至少讓我知道一下你們未來在高雄的整體產業規劃發展到底會用在什麼地方、到底會怎麼做，好嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好的。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請張啓楷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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覺得可能會有可能將近10萬人左右 會快速的增加我也希望可以跟您要到一份您是怎麼統計出這樣子的數據的 您是有去做民調嗎還是您是有去找了一個量本數用過去的資料推估那我可以一周內請您提供這一份資料嗎"},{"start":334.887,"end":359.523,"text":"好謝謝那再來呢想要跟您討論一下最近我們的委員針對預算到底經過審議每個科別積木別科子木還剩下多少預算如何的核實分配預算數接下來要請行政院還有部本部調控那我有發公文到勞動部勞動部公文還沒有回來但是已經電話回覆說還在調整分配中請問這件事正確嗎您還在調整分配中還在部本部內調控"},{"start":365.087,"end":393.163,"text":"是是啊 正確對那我想請問為什麼您可以在上節目的時候大談今年的育兒津貼被凍結被刪除我想問你是從本部的哪一個預算出的被凍結多少是哪一個科子目因為是您上的節目您講的話所以我們就請部長來回答是 好謝謝有人給我這個機會說明我確實前兩天在這個媒體上面那"},{"start":394.023,"end":413.831,"text":"我後來看我們是有這個我這邊也是有口誤的部分你是說錯還是口誤那為什麼您會覺得有這樣子的口誤呢你是從哪邊推我先說明主要被刪減跟凍結的部分是在用來做產檢價跟賠產檢價的薪資補助"},{"start":416.992,"end":431.348,"text":"所以產檢價跟賠產檢價的薪資補助還是被刪跟凍還是會影響這些新手爸媽相關的權益這部分是在我們的勞動條件及就業平等業務的這個部分又有凍結也有刪減"},{"start":433.735,"end":451.469,"text":"那這當然是影響新手包含權益但我確實口誤講成是育嬰留庭相關的薪資補助因為可能最近開了育嬰留庭的會議開的太多了所以有這個口誤但實際上面是產檢價跟陪產檢價的薪資補助那請您在這邊跟大家澄清說沒有影響到育嬰留庭"},{"start":452.31,"end":456.151,"text":"這邊也是你們勞動部自己的新聞稿六成是從就業保險基金支出就業保險基金我們根本還沒有處理到我們晚一點才會處理那你也知道為什麼我們基金這麼晚才會處理也是因為"},{"start":473.155,"end":487.726,"text":"上個會期有重大的這個救安基金的爭議才會延遲因為當時我們都在檢討為什麼救安基金會有如此大的弊案剩下兩成就是有勞動部來支出那勞動部呢我們是編列在哪一個預算我們是編列在勞動保險司的預算裡面的這個講輔助費裡面所以我們回去翻"},{"start":494.551,"end":511.262,"text":"所有的刪減報告等等就是沒有講補助案的刪減所以我也希望啊您跟未來您的同事們出去也不要再這樣子講了好嗎那個所以我剛才說明我在這部分是有口誤但是主要我們來講我們來講凍結來我們來講凍結我們來講凍結"},{"start":517.646,"end":540.206,"text":"因為這個是我之前翻出來的其實您在當立法委員的時候也有提出非常非常多的預算案那我們來看113年3月的時候其實那個時候送了21件的解凍案進來有20件很快就已經解凍了而且我看劉建國委員 昭偉今天其實也排了非常多的解凍案其實如果今天沒有這個復議的大戰"},{"start":542.208,"end":561.935,"text":"我們早就已經把解凍報告送進來了假設這些不是假設我已經看完了大概就是5%到10%的預算你們前半年就可以解凍了你現在根本不需要講這些不屬實的話我是希望部長一分錢做一分事你知道你今年的預算是已經比去年多了58億58億"},{"start":566.809,"end":587.122,"text":"那個跟陳委員說明我想我也做過立法委員在預算的審議上面很重要的是必須看科目尤其是科目又不能留用所以其實在我剛才說的產檢跟賠產檢價上面今年三更動幾乎是整筆項目的三成"},{"start":587.842,"end":604.179,"text":"我們希望啦如果你們可以好好的把這些解凍案送進來並且做好報告的話我們所有的委員我們所有的委員都會關注全民關注的事情好嗎那最後我時間不太多所以我要問一下我最近對不起"},{"start":607.182,"end":626.057,"text":"主席我問最後一個問題因為這是護理師比較關心的昨天我有參加一個依依人力銀行這個護理方的問題這最後一個問題很快這個護理師您在從立委轉任到部長前您也有為護理師發言還拍了一些短片啊等等的"},{"start":626.758,"end":640.959,"text":"那當然他們現在有提到說希望可以開放資深的移工還有僑外生擔任中階的護佐並且提高薪資門檻到三萬四千元好那我想知道說您跟衛福部開會做的規劃是如何了呢"},{"start":642.783,"end":670.849,"text":"是針對中介戶左嗎對 因為你們要從橋外申來這個案子主要是衛福部來跟勞動部申請的案子我們有兩點我們第一個我們在看的事情是關於這個薪資門檻的部分那第二個事情是當然我們也會很在意的事情是因為這個案子如果他的原意是希望讓戶左跟這個護理師有一個更好的分工讓護理師可以更專心的去做他們專業的工作那所以我們也會希望衛福部要確認"},{"start":672.429,"end":696.645,"text":"在戶左跟護理師的分工的界面上面能夠更清楚能夠讓分工有效或專業我覺得這部分很重要所以你們現在的標準跟訓練內容其實是還沒有明確的嗎當然相關的訓練的內容這部分是衛福部他們這邊來提出可是我們是作為跟衛福部一起討論這事情的單位的話對我們來說我剛才講的部分是重要的配套這個配套要做到"},{"start":697.065,"end":715.315,"text":"好 那我已經初步幫您統計起來了目前橋外生在這裡學習護理科系的總共是187名那我具體的跟您建議如果這187名學生您可以去調查他的意向是不是有願意留在台灣或者是他更傾向回到母國"},{"start":716.135,"end":741.215,"text":"我覺得你有做出這樣子的統計我們再來後續的落實因為台灣目前自己衛福部預估護理需要到2030年這個缺口啊高達5.5到7.4萬的護理人力所以我想這個187名的意願雖然他們是在這個缺口裡面占少數可是他們的意願對於您後來跟衛福部的這個合作非常的重要"},{"start":741.795,"end":764.354,"text":"跟柯文說明當然護理的人力整體這部分還是要看衛福部他們怎麼樣來做護理人力的整體的規劃那我們主要是在於是說這些相關的管制工作上面最後要做什麼樣子的管制規劃當然我們也不太希望說您可能開了這樣子的這個缺結果最後申請的人非常的少調查他們這187個人的意願也是蠻重要的總體的評估我們來跟衛福部討論謝謝部長 謝謝主席"},{"start":771.197,"end":771.218,"text":"好 謝謝請問"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":296,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時23分）主席、各位委員及各位官員，我也想請勞動部部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長好。部長，剛剛您提到要給黃國昌委員您交給審計部的這份資料，我想請問可不可以也給衛環委員會的委員？"],["洪部長申翰：可以啊！"],["陳委員菁徽：還有我們國民黨黨團，我們也想看對這筆7,000萬，到底您要如何發揮你的魄力把它追討回來？"],["洪部長申翰：報告上面不是寫如何追討回來，因為最後怎麼處理是審計部的判定。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，如何處理，是。"],["洪部長申翰：我們的回函主要是針對審計部提出來的這些項目，我們去釐清，我們認為哪些部分需要檢討，在上面說明。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，這個是我們的責任，因為民眾希望可以追討回來。"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：再來，這個也是近期非常多人關心的議題，不知道部長有沒有看到前陣子有一位三總的醫師，因為拒開巴氏量表遭到家屬攻擊，最終就被判刑。近期醫護荒，像這樣的巴氏量表也常常出現在急重症的病房，更是容易造成衝突。今年12月31號三讀通過就服法第四十六條，滿80歲以上免經巴氏量表就可以聘移工的規定，當然我是幫關心這件事的家庭來追問，想請教您，因為你常常在媒體上會講到需要6個月以上，待配套完成才可以發布實施，我想知道最快您會需要多久？最慢您會需要多久？"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，其實滿多人關心這個問題，我有看到之前好像有一些政治人物說在這個問題上面，因為沒有馬上上路，就說是行政怠惰，我要跟委員說明這樣的說法，我認為對我們的同仁是很不公平的。"],["陳委員菁徽：應該是說當在野黨提出一讀、二讀、三讀的過程，其實很明顯的，您可以感受到在野黨對這個立場的堅持，但是您在整個過程當中，卻是不斷地提出反對、反對、反對，而沒有具體地去想，也許你也可以開始規劃配套措施、整合長照的制度，無異於漠視有需求的家庭繼續受苦啊！"],["洪部長申翰：陳委員，不是這樣子的。總統在這個法案是1月20號公告，本部是在1月17號就找了衛福部開跨部會的會議，討論這部法通過以後後續的因應。這部法後續的因應，其實現在也有很多的重症家庭是很擔心的，因為已經陸陸續續看到一些重症家庭聘僱移工，而移工已經有想要棄重擇輕的狀況，所以我們現在做的配套，主要是怎麼確保重症家庭能夠找到相關照護資源的權利，所以我們會設計一個雙軌的流程……"],["陳委員菁徽：我懂，一開始其實我就是幫關心這件事的這些人稍微問進度，我只是問您最快幾時、最慢幾時，因為要讓關心這件事情的人，自己心中有一把尺，知道大概在哪一個時間內，您會說可以開始送件。"],["洪部長申翰：我可以讓包括在立法院關心這件事的委員知道，我們現在在做幾件事情，第一個事情，因為要兼顧重症家庭的權益，我們會設計一個雙軌分流，讓重症家庭能夠用更簡單、更容易的方式去做相關的申請，而不會讓他的權益受到影響，這是第一個。第二個，因為有雙軌的流程，很多地方的長照中心也好，或者相關的服務單位，他們需要增加人力，所以我們現在也要找財源，還要招募、還要訓練，這算起來也需要幾個月的時間。還有一個重點，因為有4個移工來源國，也需要跟我們的移工來源國討論，是不是能夠增加引進，因為移工來源國也有其相關訓練單位的量能，這部分也要去協調，所以在這些工作林林總總下，還包括法規的修訂，我們認為最快可能要6個月，而這6個月其實真的已經是高度的壓縮了。"],["陳委員菁徽：是！最慢呢？"],["洪部長申翰：我們希望6個月可以完成。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝、謝謝。我們也希望可以在7月底之前上路，因為我們研究了一下相關子法的盤點、修改，我相信比較其他修法，其實並沒有調整得非常多，所以我也希望部長可以落實這部法案的精神，積極地去做，好嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：對。但我還是要幫同仁說話，我們絕對沒有在這裡面行政怠惰或者相關的杯葛，這是立法院三讀通過的法律，我們當然會執行，只是我們要把配套做好，因為如果配套沒有做好，可能會引起更多聘僱市場失序的狀況，這是我們不樂見的情況，會影響到很多人的權益。"],["陳委員菁徽：是。您之前有提出一個數據，您說預估可能會增加多少份的送件？這是您預估出來的。"],["洪部長申翰：目前是有53萬人取得資格，但我們自己推估了一下，可能會有將近10萬人左右，會快速地增加。"],["陳委員菁徽：我也希望可以跟您要到一份資料，您是怎麼統計出這樣子的數據，您是有去做民調嗎？還是您有去找一個樣本數？"],["洪部長申翰：我們是用過去的聘僱資料推估……"],["陳委員菁徽：我可以一週內請您提供這份資料嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。再來想要跟您討論一下，最近我們委員針對預算經過審議，每個科別、科子目還剩下多少預算？如何的覈實分配預算數？接下來還要請行政院還有部本部調控。我有發公文到勞動部，勞動部的公文還沒有回來，但是已經電話回復說還在調整分配中，請問這件事正確嗎？您還在調整分配中、還在部本部內調控？"],["洪部長申翰：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：是啊？正確？"],["洪部長申翰：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：那我想請問，為什麼您可以在上節目的時候大談今年的育兒津貼被凍結、被刪除？我想問你是從本部的哪一個預算出的？被凍結多少？是哪一個科子目？因為是您上的節目、您講的話，所以我們就請部長來回答。"],["洪部長申翰：是，好，謝謝委員給我這個機會說明。我確實前兩天在媒體上面，我後來看我這邊是有口誤的部分，這次主要……"],["陳委員菁徽：你是說錯還是口誤？"],["洪部長申翰：口誤。"],["陳委員菁徽：那為什麼您會有這樣子的口誤？你是從哪邊推理？"],["洪部長申翰：我先說明，主要被刪減跟凍結的部分是在用來做產檢假跟陪產檢假的薪資補助，所以產檢假跟陪產檢假的薪資補助還是被刪跟凍，還是會影響這些新手爸媽相關的權益。這部分是在我們的勞動條件及就業平等業務的這個部分，又有凍結也有刪減，這當然影響新手爸媽的權益，但我確實口誤講成是育嬰留停相關的薪資補助，可能最近育嬰留停的會議開得太多了，所以有這個口誤，但實際上面是產檢假跟陪產檢假的薪資補助。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，請您在這邊跟大家澄清說沒有影響到育嬰留停、沒有影響到育嬰津貼……"],["洪部長申翰：還是會影響到新手爸媽的權益。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們等一下一個一個列，這邊也是你們勞動部自己的新聞稿，六成是從就業保險基金支出，好，就業保險基金，我們根本還沒有處理到，我們晚一點才會處理嘛！你也知道為什麼我們基金這麼晚才會處理，也是因為上個會期有重大的就安基金的爭議才會延遲。當時我們都在檢討為什麼就安基金會有如此大的弊案，剩下二成就是由勞動部來支出，勞動部是編列在哪一個預算？我們是編列在勞動保險司預算的獎輔助費裡面，但是我們回去翻所有的刪減報告等等，就是沒有獎補助案的刪減，所以我也希望未來您跟您的同事們出去也不要再這樣子講了，好嗎？"],["洪部長申翰：我跟委員報告，我剛才說明我在這部分有口誤，但是主要刪跟凍的……"],["陳委員菁徽：對，我們來講凍結。"],["洪部長申翰：是新手爸媽的產檢假跟陪產檢假的薪資補貼。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們來講凍結，這個是我之前翻出來的，其實您在當立法委員的時候也有提出非常非常多的預算案，我們來看113年3月，其實那個時候送了21件的解凍案進來，有20件很快就已經解凍了，而且我看劉建國委員、召委，今天其實也排了非常多的解凍案，如果今天沒有這個覆議大戰，我們早就已經把解凍報告送進來了，假設這些……不是假設，我已經看完了，大概就是5%到10%的預算，你們前半年就可以解凍了，你現在根本不需要講這些不屬實的話，我希望部長一分錢做一分事，你知道你今年的預算已經比去年多了58億。"],["洪部長申翰：跟陳委員說明，我也做過立法委員，在預算的審議上面很重要的是必須看科目，尤其是科目又不能流用，其實在我剛才說的產檢跟陪產檢假上面刪跟凍，幾乎是整筆項目的3成。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們希望啦！如果你們可以好好地把這些解凍案送進來，並且做好報告的話，我們所有的委員都會關注全民關注的事情，好嗎？最後我時間不太多，所以我要問一下……"],["洪部長申翰：我們都很……"],["陳委員菁徽：我最近……對不起，主席，我問最後一個問題，因為這是護理師比較關心的，昨天我有參加一個1111人力銀行護理荒的問題，這最後一個問題，很快。您在從立委轉任到部長前，你也有為護理師發言，還拍了一些短片等等的，當然他們現在有提到希望可以開放資深移工還有僑外生擔任中階的護佐，並且提高薪資門檻到3萬4,000元。我想知道說您跟衛福部開會，做的規劃是如何呢？"],["洪部長申翰：是針對中階護佐嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：對，因為你們要從僑外生來找。"],["洪部長申翰：這個案子主要是衛福部來跟勞動部申請的案子，我們有兩點，第一個我們在看的事情是關於薪資門檻的部分；第二個事情是當然我們也會很在意的事情，因為這個案子它的原意是希望讓護佐跟護理師有一個更好的分工，讓護理師可以更專心地去做他們專業的工作，所以我們也會希望衛福部要確認，在護佐跟護理師的分工的介面上面能夠更清楚，能夠讓分工有效或專業，我覺得這部分很重要。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你們現在的標準跟訓練內容其實還沒有明確的嘛？"],["洪部長申翰：當然相關的訓練內容這部分是衛福部提出，可是我們是作為跟衛福部一起討論這事情的單位的話，對我們來說，我剛才講的部分是重要的配套，這個配套要做到。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我已經初步幫您統計起來了，目前僑外生在這裡學習護理科系的總共是187名，我具體地跟您建議，這187名學生，您可以去調查他的意向，了解是不是有願意留在臺灣，或者是他更傾向回到母國。我覺得你有做出這樣子的統計，我們再來後續地落實，因為目前衛福部預估，護理需要到2030年……這個缺口高達5.5到7.4萬的護理人力。這187名的意願，雖然他們在這個缺口裡面占少數，可是他們的意願對於您後來跟衛福部的合作非常重要。"],["洪部長申翰：跟委員說明，當然護理的人力整體這部分還是要看衛福部怎麼樣來做護理人力的整體規劃，我們主要是在這些相關的管制工作上面，最後要做什麼樣子的管制規劃。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們也不太希望您可能開了這樣子的缺，結果最後申請的人非常少……"],["洪部長申翰：當然是整體的評估……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以調查他們這187個人的意願也是滿重要的。"],["洪部長申翰：整體的評估我們會來跟衛福部討論。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝部長。","接下來請林月琴委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":536,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-26-3","speakers":["劉建國","黃國昌","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王育敏","盧縣一","王正旭","蘇清泉","黃秀芳","林淑芬","陳培瑜","楊曜","高金素梅","陳昭姿","牛煦庭","張雅琳","黃捷","李坤城","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","徐欣瑩","陳瑩"],"page_start":285,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算附屬單位預算決議有關勞動部預算凍結報告案 19案；二、邀請\n勞動部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；三、繼續審查114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預\n算關於勞動部主管部分","agenda_id":"1142901_00005"}}},{"id":"159319","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159319","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/8d8da86eec6b25b8000411897cf5e891cea595bacfac0e4703218e34103c684f9258d6461fda9c085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:19:23 - 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AI也好啊所以我沒有看到你綠色金融也難怪現在綠色金融的產品你們也講金管會也講你們呢 不講可是又可以隻字片語看到行政院的什麼的公佈我們要推動綠色金融我們沒有產品"},{"start":171.939,"end":178.321,"text":"所以在這邊我幾個質詢的議題第一個就是您的投資技巧我是非常肯定的第二個你們對於傳統產業升級的重視本行認為應該還要加大加深加碼第三個你們也應該要致力於綠色金融創新而且標的就以我高雄為主高雄是最好發展綠色金融科技的一個旗艦的城市"},{"start":197.065,"end":200.648,"text":"好你們的這個投資績效這個其實剛才你有講其實從你國庫原始撥補的309億到現在去年9月為止你們增加了1兆5770億這個是成績斐然那投資的重點也有在一些新興產業本期也肯定你們在海事綠能半導體跟生技等"},{"start":220.724,"end":243.977,"text":"但是你們固然有投資營運績效的責任但是你們確實有擔負起加速產業創新價值促進經濟轉型及國家發展而協助我國產業創新價值研究發展及自創品牌的任務所以本席也反對不當的調查跟干擾專業投資請國發會務必堅守國家的利益跟使命"},{"start":247.119,"end":269.328,"text":"好你們也應該重視傳統產業有在你們的基金當中我有看到其中你們的這個哇這個你的第九頁哇你的這個第九頁有把這個也有產業再造基金你們的好多的好多相關的這個基金你都也有這個智慧醫療創新產業AI新創產業產業再造基金你們在去年8月又成立了一個30億的產業再造基金"},{"start":274.87,"end":297.871,"text":"那呢希望這個部分呢我想理解你的投資標的是什麼是你這第11頁講的五大信賴產業校園創投基金綠色成長淨零產業嗎還是本席看到的在媒體上看到是你們要翻轉至少三個弱勢產業那這是到底你這個基金的目的是什麼"},{"start":298.171,"end":322.525,"text":"是的 這個產業再造基金是以傳產為主那它主要的做法跟顛覆傳統它就是投資者以後會有比較專業的人士進來協助這個企業在做管理跟營運的再造就不是只有單純的資金投資那這樣的基金補助 既然你也鎖定傳統產業我希望再聚焦"},{"start":323.891,"end":342.623,"text":"某些產業那譬如說石化模具塑膠射出及金屬構建你要這些產業一定譬如說在石化業全國最聚集的產業聚集最一條龍的就在我高雄石化業那他一定有他們共通的譬如說AI的科技"},{"start":343.583,"end":358.151,"text":"淨零的科技捕捉碳排的這個相關的科一定有一些共通的你投入這個產業的特別在AI的科技的建置或者是這個智慧化的建置它一定有這些產業共同會使用的技術嘛甚至有些融資這些中小企業它實話又可能一定不會有淨零補碳的技術啊誰會有可能這些新創業者會有啊"},{"start":368.317,"end":372.038,"text":"新創業者小啊可是標的有啊石化業這麼大這麼多啊所以你應該要讓這些這個傳統產業當中你應該鎖定然後進額這樣才會有亮點嘛你的讓他們在因應美國這個關稅提高以及中國廉價產品的傾銷的時候才有辦法船廠升級進入高石化好本席這邊還要講到一點我希望國發會在南部設置據點國發會"},{"start":396.144,"end":413.38,"text":"高雄或者是國發會南部辦公室設置在高雄這當中你不是第一例在本席過往當中我已經在我的立處立處之下中華經濟研究院這樣的一個智庫已經在高雄有辦公室而且運作多年商發院"},{"start":414.1,"end":431.546,"text":"服務業在高雄也有南部據點這個公園院在南部也有據點南院喔在這個台南我都覺得非常的好而且都行之多年了那為什麼要你在南部呢進行專案輔導呢因為我們船廠跟中小企業中南部的業者面對政府的資源有三個特色第一個不知道第二個不會寫第三個不會過"},{"start":443.451,"end":456.605,"text":"這就有這三個特色那你會講這個是經濟部做的事情啊這個經濟部有啊他們這個產發署就在做這件事情啊跟你這件那你跟他的區別在哪裡你跟他的區別在哪裡你的區別就是你能夠聚焦某些產業"},{"start":460.649,"end":481.374,"text":"因為在高雄很明顯 我剛才講了我們高雄的一些產業是石化 模具 社交 社租 金屬扣件我們所研發的所有的中小企業全部遍布高雄所以你應該在據點的時候你才會聽我們在地的業者心 而不是遠在台北啊然後你們的這個審議的機制也都在台北啊"},{"start":482.774,"end":490.946,"text":"然後再來我們本來就有規劃今年2月要設結果南部辦公室因為預算被砍以後關掉所以我們現在正在另密新的場地在高雄嗎對在高雄好那非常好那就開始了那我現在講這個綠色金融"},{"start":498.317,"end":515.348,"text":"好這個綠色金融呢我認為國發會應該跨部會整合淨零科技金融創新AI產業AI產業化開放境外產業資產的管理規劃國發會基金投資綠色金融科技好我光是講到這幾個你已經是"},{"start":517.429,"end":533.267,"text":"缺乏統整 經個型歧視這個是在綠色金融當中為什麼我們要落實以ESG永續發展為目標以數位科技為手段推出金融產品跟投資方案目前因為缺乏統整 個型歧視 成銷甚微你給他看 淨零科技在哪個部位"},{"start":538.391,"end":549.723,"text":"跟國營報告 這個我們在去年年底我們匡列了100億給到環境部我們希望環境部來推動您所提示我們的這個淨零科技好來來來 預講到環境部 來來來淨零科技在環境部"},{"start":554.688,"end":557.429,"text":"在這個經濟部兩個都有金融這個創新跟開放境外資產管理這個本來就有在推的這兩個在金管會這個會議在高雄有但是還金管會那AI產業呢在蘇發部所以你要光靠一個所以國發會應該協助這幾個部會不是只有這個環境部而已喔"},{"start":582.794,"end":585.135,"text":"光是環境部他能夠整合這些而有產生綠色金融的產品以我高雄為什麼我說高雄他這個商業模式就這樣靠近資金靠近市場靠近這個人才或者靠近你的原料是在哪裡就靠近這四個高雄全部都有"},{"start":607.145,"end":612.128,"text":"只差你國發會的整合因為基金在你手上好那所以呢我們的優勢我們土地豐沛你看這個全這個面積2952好那這個平方公里我們優勢二產業聚落完整優勢三我窮後的高雄科技人才的基礎我們這麼多的大學包括這個清華陽明交通大學都設在高雄了的分校以及優勢四我們有這個政府的"},{"start":633.78,"end":656.369,"text":"聚焦的這個政策有S藍帶的半導體有大南方有亞灣等先進科技都在高雄已經形成科技的這個區域了僅差你國發會的整合區域的這個資源形成示範的效益好我具體建議國發會基於區域平衡在高雄設置國發基金南部辦公室現在本席要求兩個業務第一個30億的產業再造基金匡列15億"},{"start":660.831,"end":680.501,"text":"提供中南部主題式的輔導計畫避免中南部產業成為國發基金的投資偏鄉第二個整合我高雄的現有的優勢提出綠色金融的落實方案整合跨領域的資源建立綠色科技金融的示範程式主委您回應一下吧"},{"start":681.901,"end":694.606,"text":"這個我們再回去研究一下跟好 我要講你不要想說15億很多你要曉得產業巨弱中南部包括我們今天的昭緯他在雲林在彰化"},{"start":700.07,"end":712.475,"text":"對 在彰化 在彰化以南 羅水溪以南我們的中小企業聚集最多傳產聚集天多 幾乎是七三比跟羅水溪以南比較薄薄所有中小企業跟傳統產業是七三比所以30億的產業再造金 本息應該怎麼建議應該是70%在羅水溪以南 30%還是在薄薄但是我沒有 我還很厚道 我說只剩一半"},{"start":726.341,"end":749.048,"text":"在中南部的主題市的輔導避免中南部你們才會積極的投入啊然後再來我綠色金融當中的一個靠近市場靠近人才都在我高雄那所以呢請你們也聚焦在這個南部辦公室一定要在怎麼高雄成為綠色科技金融的示範城市你們這個辦公室也要提出方案可以嗎"},{"start":750.22,"end":764.651,"text":"這個我會跟金管會討論之後跟委員做說明好 你看喔 你講的綠色金融你講到金管會可是真的產業的發展在環境部跟這個經濟部可是你想到金融其實那是可是金融它只是一個它的產品當中你們確定了我錢給你嘛就這樣而已可是你的產品在哪裡當然是那兩個部會啊所以為什麼要國發會你出來整合以上 謝謝好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":64,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時19分）有請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：委員好。"],["林委員岱樺：主委，您的簡報做得非常的完整，但本席認為您在國發基金及所有相關基金的投資，投資新創也是你的重點，但是我希望聚焦在傳產的升級，以及你整篇沒有提到的綠色金融，一個字都沒提到！我不曉得你對綠色金融科技這件事情，是認為這個不重要？還是在你們的施政當中認為這個不是重點？","因為你也在推動淨零，現在政府推的兩大政策就是：第一個，針對所有大、中、小企業你一定推AI、智慧化環境的建置；第二個是淨零碳排。既然是這兩個，相關AI的技術、智慧化的技術以及淨零碳排的技術其實就已經有這個市場了，我們最希望市場去驅動整個產業的發展，而我們現在是用補助政策的引導去誘發產業的發展，當然這是一個路徑，但是如果市場本身有這個需求，現在可以看到淨零、節能、AI既然已經有這個市場了，那你是否讓這些有相關技術的人，他可能缺乏資金、他在金融上比較沒有……因為這個市場有一個很明確的產業標的，進而我可以協助他在金融當中的支持、綠色金融的支持，應該是要這樣子呀！","否則光是現在有淨零的市場、有AI的市場，但是你只單靠補助，但是會做這些技術研發的大概都是中小企業。當然你有講到新創，可是如果你能夠特別把綠色金融，因為政府在推，市場也有這個需求，國際也在推這個東西，已經有這個市場了，你如何讓市場帶動所有的中小企業，加上你的新創？但是我聚焦在綠色金融的部分，才能夠讓所有中小企業去帶動，並且幫這些中大型企業或中小企業去做淨零也好、AI也好，所以我沒有看到你提及綠色金融，難怪現在綠色金融的產品你們也講、金管會也講，而你們不講，可是又可以透過隻字片語看到行政院公布要推動綠色金融，我們沒有產品。","所以在這邊我有幾個質詢的議題：第一個，您的投資績效我是非常肯定的；第二個，你們對於傳統產業升級的重視，本席認為應該還要加大、加深、加碼；第三個，你們也應該要致力於綠色金融創新，而且標的就以我高雄為主，高雄是最好發展綠色金融科技的旗艦城市。","關於你們的投資績效，其實剛才你有講，從國庫原始撥補的309億，到去年9月為止，你們增加了1兆5,770億，成績斐然！投資的重點也有在一些新興產業，本席也肯定你們在海事、綠能、半導體跟生技等。你們固然有投資營運績效的責任，但是你們也有擔負起加速產業創新加值、促進經濟轉型及國家發展，而協助我國產業創新加值、研究發展及自創品牌的任務。所以本席也反對不當的調查跟干擾專業投資，請國發會務必堅守國家的利益跟使命。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員岱樺：你們也應該要重視傳統產業，有，在你們的基金當中我有看到，其中你的報告第9頁也有提到產業再造基金等好多相關的基金，也有智慧醫療創新產業、AI新創產業、產業再造基金，你們在去年8月又成立了一個30億的產業再造基金。這個部分我想理解你的投資標的是什麼？是你的報告第11頁講的五大信賴產業、校園創投基金、綠色成長淨零產業嗎？本席在媒體上看到是，你們要翻轉至少三個弱勢產業，那你這個基金的目的到底是什麼？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的，這個產業再造基金是以傳產為主。"],["林委員岱樺：好。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：它主要的作法顛覆傳統，投資以後會有比較專業的人士進來協助這個企業做管理跟營運的再造，不是只有單純的資金投資。"],["林委員岱樺：好，這樣的基金補助既然你也鎖定傳統產業，我希望再聚焦某些產業，譬如說石化、模具、塑膠射出及金屬扣件，譬如說石化業，全國最聚集的產業一條龍就在我高雄石化業，其中一定有它們共通的，譬如說AI的科技、淨零的科技、捕捉碳排的相關科技，一定有一些共通的，你投入這個產業特別在AI的科技建置或者是智慧化的建置，一定有這些產業會共通使用的技術，甚至有些融資，這些中小企業、石化業一定不會有淨零補碳的技術，誰會有？可能這些新創業者會有，新創業者小，可是標的有，石化業這麼大、這麼多！所以你應該要鎖定這些傳統產業，進而才會有亮點，讓它們在因應美國關稅提高以及中國廉價產品傾銷的時候，才有辦法傳產升級、進入高質化。","本席這邊還要講到一點，我希望國發會能在南部設置據點，將國發會高雄或者是國發會南部辦公室設置在高雄，這當中你不是第一例，在過往當中，在我的力促之下，中華經濟研究院這樣的一個智庫已經在高雄有辦公室，而且運作多年；關於服務業的商發院在高雄也有南部據點；工研院在南部也有據點，南院在臺南，我都覺得非常好，而且都行之多年了。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：是的。"],["林委員岱樺：為什麼要你在南部進行專案輔導呢？因為我們傳產跟中小企業等在濁水溪以南的中南部業者面對政府的資源有三個特色：第一個不知道、第二個不會寫、第三個不會過，就有這三個特色！那你會講：這個是經濟部做的事情，這個經濟部有啊，他們的產發署就在做這件事情。但你跟他的區別在哪裡？你的區別就是你能夠聚焦某些產業。因為在高雄很明顯，我剛才講了我們高雄的一些產業，例如石化、模具、塑膠射出、金屬扣件，我們所衍生的所有中小企業全部遍布高雄，所以你在這邊設據點的時候才會聽到在地的業者心聲，而不是遠在臺北，然後你們的審議機制也都在臺北啊！"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們本來就有規劃今年2月要設啦，結果南部辦公室因為預算被砍以後關掉，所以我們現在正在另覓新的場地。"],["林委員岱樺：在高雄嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對，在高雄。"],["林委員岱樺：好，那非常好，我現在講綠色金融。我認為國發會應該跨部會整合淨零科技、金融創新、AI產業化、開放境外資產管理，規劃國發會基金投資綠色金融科技。我光是講到這幾個，你已經是缺乏統整、均各行其事，在綠色金融當中我們要落實以ESG永續發展為目標、以數位科技為手段、推出金融產品跟投資方案，但目前因為缺乏統整、各行其事，成效甚微！請問淨零科技在哪個部會？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：跟委員報告，這部分我們在去年底匡列了100億給環境部，我們希望環境部來推動您所提示我們的淨零科技，搭配到未來的……"],["林委員岱樺：你講到環境部，來！淨零科技在環境部、在經濟部，兩個都有；金融創新跟開放境外資產管理是本來就有在推的，這兩個在金管會。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個也在高雄為主……"],["林委員岱樺：有，但是這在金管會。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：對。"],["林委員岱樺：那AI產業在數發部。所以國發會應該協助這幾個部會，不是只有環境部而已，光是環境部能夠整合這些產生綠色金融的產品嗎，以我高雄為例？為什麼我說高雄？因為商業模式就這樣，靠近資金、靠近市場、靠近人才或者靠近原料在哪裡，就靠近這四個。高雄全部都有，只差你國發會的整合，因為基金在你手上。","我們的優勢是土地豐沛，你看我們的面積達2,952平方公里；我們的優勢二，產業聚落完整；優勢三，雄厚的高雄科技人才基礎，我們有這麼多的大學，包括清華、陽明交通大學都設立高雄分校；以及優勢四，我們有政府聚焦的政策，包括半導體S廊帶、大南方、亞灣等先進科技產業計畫都在高雄形成科技區域，僅差你國發會整合區域的資源，即可形成示範效率。","我具體建議國發會基於區域平衡，在高雄設置國發基金南部辦公室，現在本席要求兩個業務：第一個，30億的「產業再造基金」匡列15億，提供中南部主題式的輔導計畫，避免中南部產業成為國發基金的投資偏鄉；第二個，整合我高雄現有的優勢，提出綠色金融的落實方案，整合跨領域的資源，建立綠色科技金融的示範城市。主委回應一下吧。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：我們回去研究一下，再跟委員報告。"],["林委員岱樺：我現在這樣講，但你不要想說15億很多，你要曉得產業聚落中南部濁水溪以南，包括我們今天的召委他在雲林濁水溪以南這裡……"],["劉主任委員鏡清：他在彰化。"],["林委員岱樺：對，在彰化以南、濁水溪以南，我們的中小企業聚集最多、傳產聚集最多，幾乎是七三比！濁水溪以南跟北部，所有中小企業跟傳統產業是七三比！所以30億的產業再造基金，本席建議應該是70%在濁水溪以南，30%在北部，但是我沒有，我還很厚道，我說其中的一半在中南部的主題式輔導，避免中南部……你們才會積極的投入。","再來，綠色金融要靠近市場、靠近人才，也都在高雄，所以請你們聚焦南部辦公室，一定要讓高雄成為綠色科技金融的示範城市，所以你們這個辦公室也要提出方案，可以嗎？"],["劉主任委員鏡清：這個我會跟金管會討論之後跟委員做說明。"],["林委員岱樺：你看，講到綠色金融你就講到金管會，可是真的產業發展在環境部跟經濟部，可是一講到金融，其實那是……金融只是它的一個產品，你們確定了，我錢給你就這樣而已，可是你的產品在哪裡？當然是那兩個部會，所以為什麼要國發會出來整合？好，以上，謝謝。"],["劉主任委員鏡清：好，謝謝。"],["主席：現在請邱議瑩委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":192,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","邱議瑩","張啓楷","陳超明","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","鄭正鈐","呂玉玲","邱志偉","王鴻薇","賴瑞隆","蔡易餘","林倩綺","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","張雅琳","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃建賓","徐欣瑩","陳冠廷","張嘉郡"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2025-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家發展委員會主任委員列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00003"}}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}