{"total":{"value":98,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2025-03-20"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"159499","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159499","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb05c6374aea92062ec01b4bb3d6676f3fd8a3637366d388642b99eda9eaf2fc55b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"14:00:23 - 14:08:17","影片長度":"00:07:54","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 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審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T14:00:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T14:08:17+08:00","duration":474,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.86096875,"end":11.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.387843750000002,"end":11.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.40471875,"end":14.712218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.446593750000002,"end":16.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.89284375,"end":21.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.83784375,"end":23.200343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.68971875,"end":25.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.76534375,"end":27.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.520343750000002,"end":31.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.891593750000002,"end":27.992843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.089718750000003,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.80659375,"end":37.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.840343750000002,"end":32.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.73471875,"end":32.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.252843750000004,"end":42.977843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.125968750000006,"end":40.969718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.54346875,"end":41.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.64471875,"end":41.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.76284375,"end":42.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.09159375,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.84221875,"end":47.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.78721875,"end":47.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.88846875,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.02346875,"end":51.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.09096875,"end":48.377843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.97221875,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.02284375,"end":52.461593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.461593750000006,"end":52.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.49534375,"end":52.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.44846875,"end":60.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.56159375,"end":62.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.37096875,"end":65.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.37471875,"end":73.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.98971875000001,"end":78.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.16659375,"end":86.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.10284375,"end":80.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.49846875,"end":118.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.38784375,"end":93.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.96596875,"end":161.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.03096875,"end":173.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.37534375,"end":241.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.40659375,"end":189.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.03534375,"end":270.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.19096875,"end":298.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.27534375000005,"end":358.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.92846875000004,"end":407.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.91221875,"end":424.11659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.58909375,"end":452.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.71971875,"end":464.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.80784375,"end":455.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":463.70534375000005,"end":470.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.45159375000003,"end":471.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.97409375,"end":474.52221875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.866,"end":24.853,"text":"好 謝謝主席有請次長 次長辛苦了 午安好 請次長被質詢 謝謝謝謝 委員好我時間還沒有 等一下 因為同一天還沒出來好了嗎 好 委員好不好意思 主席 我可以問一下這個電視是壞掉了嗎時間可以暫停嗎 等一下"},{"start":26.737,"end":42.307,"text":"時間請暫停我們看一下那個那邊的螢幕是不是是可以運作還是可能有按到開關麻煩請醫事人員協助那次長要不要喝口水好了有了所以剛剛是把我們關掉嗎又沒了我的鴨皮都沒了需要阿宅來幫忙嗎也是不用啦"},{"start":56.236,"end":61.559,"text":"一個螢幕讓這個柯總召都要出馬了這個螢幕要乖一點"},{"start":68.97,"end":72.832,"text":"這個 可能螢幕比較 這看到柯總召來 他比較這個比較那個 儀式尊重謝謝總召 好 我們今天就詢答結束了時間繼續謝謝次長 這個先往下好了體育班這題我們繼續討論"},{"start":86.599,"end":101.23,"text":"好 來 次長營養午餐今天已經很多人講了過去大概有74億是由中央補助地方我們今天早上一路聽下來次長我有一個建議啦才化法這麼辛苦對不對剛剛看起來確實是一個困境要不要乾脆"},{"start":101.69,"end":114.724,"text":"如果地方政府難以溝通導致摯愛難行可是修法沒有辦法完成的任務又必須要教育部承擔我們要不要乾脆攤開來中央政府跟地方政府你攤開來給家長看讓家長知道我們到底要找誰"},{"start":119.368,"end":143.608,"text":"問以下我要問的十個問題因為過去以來專法從我上任第一天我就講到現在已經過去兩年了但是我在研究的那個過程當中我才發現確實有非常多議題它不僅只是實案的問題也不是只有費用的問題也不是只有人員的問題不是只有法規的問題也不是只有地區跟偏鄉差異的問題有非常非常多問題但聽下來次長你認不認同如果"},{"start":144.389,"end":160.084,"text":"在後續的跟地方政府的溝通上確實遇到困難你這樣不贊成乾脆就攤開來講給家長聽例如說以前的食材我們補助這麼多人力的部分我們補助這麼多那未來地方政府要不要把這些事情帶回去地方政府做還是他們又繼續丟包給你們"},{"start":162.219,"end":188.439,"text":"其實我們都希望不要發生這個狀況就是說能夠維持現在有的但是現實上是不可能的因為才會把上路之後我們一個一個來看所以我認為攤開來問我們就來一題一題看我們從去年的10問到現在11問到底專法所適用的範圍因為我跟次長報告很多家長連他自己的小孩念的學校到底是歸中央管轄還是歸地方管轄"},{"start":189.439,"end":197.723,"text":"他都搞不清楚你知道嗎不要說高中啦有的家長連小學國中到底歸誰管他都不一定搞得清楚可是我不認為這是家長的問題因為家長有自己的樹葉有專攻嘛他不需要去搞清楚這個法規可是他只問他的孩子的營養午餐歸誰管我就光是這一題我們好好跟家長解釋對不對好來再來"},{"start":209.049,"end":228.925,"text":"適用的範圍在跨縣市一定會有互踢皮球的地方接下來才化法大家都把錢拿走了但是大家都不認領事情來做台北新北基隆北北基這是一個一日生活圈的概念大家如何分工還有跨部會之間的分工跟食材有關跟衛生有關跟教育工作有關那這些部會怎麼合作"},{"start":229.665,"end":247.096,"text":"而且這些部會跟地方上在溝通的管道又不一樣經驗也不一樣對不對這個是不是也適合來談一下中央跟地方的分工你看到目前兩題了對不對次長來第三題專法的規範有沒有涵蓋所有的公餐模式我的小孩住的我們住的那個"},{"start":247.836,"end":266.066,"text":"那一條路上可能五間學校就有五種公餐模式有公辦公營、公辦民營、民辦民營、他校公營包含蘇院長上任之後提供的中央廚房模式變得更複雜了那未來才化法通過已經通過了啦那地方怎麼談這件事情那甚至我還有擔心的問題所以次長這題我們這邊也要跟家長講對不對好再來"},{"start":272.216,"end":298.049,"text":"未來我們在談草案或者是後續財政規劃的時候中央地方學校要不要設置所謂的委員會要不要有多元的聲音而如果相關權責跟經費都到了地方政府去他們願不願意在這個概念上採納多元的聲音這個議題我知道次長您是認同的之前您在擔任立法委員的時候你也非常認同但我們都不確定到了地方他們會不會乖乖把該找來的人找來開會聽多元的聲音我們並不知道好下一張"},{"start":299.87,"end":315.287,"text":"營養師除工人數的比例如何協助學校營養師聘組還有除工還有營養午餐如果是外定統餐學校的營養師跟團上的營養師如何分工也就是說每次出現食安事件的時候大家就會追究除工的問題還是營養師的問題到底是外定廠商的問題還是學校的問題一樣我認為"},{"start":321.333,"end":337.44,"text":"攤開來跟大家講清楚不是只有你的責任次長我覺得地方政府現在所有地方政府都要加緊腳步共同來承擔跟面對這個問題雖然我問的此時此刻我是在問教育部但我更要問的是所有地方政府準備把錢拿回去之後要不要面對這些問題好 接下來"},{"start":339.241,"end":357.899,"text":"學校5密目前都是兼任老師很辛苦 已經很多地方老師哀鴻遍野了抓交替這個現象如何解決到了地方政府這些縣市首長會不會更加壓迫我們地方老師對不對 次長所以這個部分也要講出來啊武蔡秘書承擔了非常多大量的業務這些事情必須要拿出來講好 再來"},{"start":359.12,"end":375.193,"text":"還有偏鄉我更擔心的是偏鄉的營養午餐業務偏鄉人力難尋相關食材的送達還有老師身兼多職這件事情也會影響而且那個影響的層面更加複雜跟多元一樣偏鄉的縣市政府要不要跟您教育部坐下來好好溝通來下一張"},{"start":376.974,"end":396.834,"text":"如何确保学生的营养摄取跟健康基准之前苏院长之所以会成立中央厨房就是发现很多偏向的小孩营养午餐看起来有够凄惨有够可怜相较于同一天的照片如果我们看台北市六都小孩感觉不是同一国的小孩所以我们成立了中央厨房未来这件事情怎么办还有食材采买会不会是问题"},{"start":397.535,"end":423.056,"text":"食材採買當然是問題有非常多細節在裡頭我們說細節魔鬼藏在細節裡面好下一張第九張如果食物中毒誰來處理誰來管第十張食農教育法國民營養及健康飲食促進法還有未來假設營養午餐法通過之後學校的營養教育如何進行當然我們有基本的概念是有教育部來訂定但是地方縣市政府要不要督促他們學校努力去辦第十一張我就問次長"},{"start":424.659,"end":451.968,"text":"您來自地方的立法委員很多人在選舉的時候 我不是說你啦我說很多縣市首長在選舉的時候就開支票說吃飯不用錢 吃菜不用錢 聯絡部不用錢小金座也不用錢 我在講婦孕期都不用錢的時候 營養午餐的品質會逐年下降甚至是逐日下降最近這兩天 日本就有一個新聞日本有非常多縣市都提供免費營養午餐結果家長愛哄騙也因為品質下降 小孩根本吃不飽結果拿出更多的錢去買零食"},{"start":452.828,"end":464.873,"text":"所以這個困境真的很大所以次長我建議啦如果都搞不定不要我們自己背鍋攤開來跟家長講到底是中央該承擔還是地方該承擔好 次長可不可以簡單回應一下謝謝委員的指教我們就朝這個方向好啦 我們就公開講給家長聽好不好 謝謝好 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謝謝"},{"start":112.982,"end":120.337,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員的簡短發言那我想接著我們就有請教育部張料次長進行報告報告時間8分鐘"}]}},{"id":"159423","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159423","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb04e08d17a1d2795b601b4bb3d6676f3fdec8388057f36d6281aa97a5015985c895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"09:39:33 - 09:41:44","影片長度":"00:02:11","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T09:39:33+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T09:41:44+08:00","duration":131,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.6722187500000001,"end":3.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.970968750000001,"end":6.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.87784375,"end":34.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.73846875,"end":123.25221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.31534375000001,"end":130.96409375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.64,"end":2.182,"text":"好 那我們時間稍微剪短 謝謝"},{"start":7.952,"end":33.729,"text":"我們的孩子們從國小到高中在學校都有公餐的情況下孩子們將會有超過十年的時間每天至少都在學校享用一次的營養午餐甚至到了國中高中有晚自習會有兩次在學校使用餐食的機會也因此學校提供的餐食的營養環境的衛生及品質的把關至為重要也對孩子們的健康跟安全息息相關"},{"start":35.779,"end":39.183,"text":"而也因為學校餐食是孩子每天都會食用的本期的版本是強調除了營養健康我們透過學校提供的餐食來讓孩子認識食材推廣健康飲食的意識提升孩子們對食品安全衛生的認知同時結合台灣在地的優質農產品及特色飲食文化"},{"start":57.422,"end":61.063,"text":"強化在地食材與人文歷史的連結兼顧飲食的衛生安全與對台灣農產品的認識發揚飲食文化延續台灣特色飲食的技藝然而受到才化法倉促修法的影響中央行政各機機關各區分出將近30%的到各縣市政府"},{"start":77.168,"end":80.812,"text":"本期希望呢教育部這邊應該要跟各地的縣市政府進行溝通針對營養師的設置飲食秘書這個新增的經費呢研議多少的比例該由地方的縣市政府自行來負擔並且應該要與教師家長學生團體進行學校飲食相關法規的"},{"start":97.671,"end":122.109,"text":"事項呢來做意見交流不能我們訂了學校飲食法之後呢卻因為才化法我們整個財政的這個分配呢無法執行希望在充分溝通之後呢我們可以請教育部盡速的提出院版的飲食學校飲食法一起跟委員們的版本進行審議以利三讀後通過之後可以順利的推動相關的事項謝謝"},{"start":125.431,"end":129.999,"text":"謝謝陳秀寶委員簡短發言那我們接下來有請葉元之委員"}]}},{"id":"159418","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159418","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb03eeb2c809884389d01b4bb3d6676f3fdec8388057f36d62814c0753048fa81f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:31:28 - 09:34:15","影片長度":"00:02:47","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 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- 09:39:28","影片長度":"00:05:07","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 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審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T09:34:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T09:39:28+08:00","duration":307,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.90346875,"end":14.374718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.62784375,"end":31.047218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.23284375,"end":38.252843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.74221875,"end":69.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.36596875000001,"end":71.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.78346875,"end":77.08221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.30159375000001,"end":81.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.43596875,"end":89.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.16471875,"end":101.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.92221875000001,"end":138.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.21596875,"end":146.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.15159375000002,"end":149.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.74596875,"end":158.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.09471875,"end":159.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.15784375,"end":162.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.87471875,"end":179.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.73284375,"end":183.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.82909375,"end":186.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.47846875000002,"end":188.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.79471875000002,"end":193.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.41409375,"end":194.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.49409375000002,"end":211.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.76159375,"end":225.32909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.90284375000002,"end":227.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.97846875000002,"end":239.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.41971875000002,"end":240.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.83721875,"end":255.26534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.53534375,"end":281.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.24846875000003,"end":302.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.98784375,"end":307.96596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.096,"end":26.752,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關市長 官員 會長 觀眾夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生今天我們要審查的一個重要的法案在諸多提案委員當中 有的稱之為學校公餐法有的稱為學校午餐法 也有稱為學校飲食法或是營養飲食法 營養健康法 飲食教育法"},{"start":27.646,"end":37.993,"text":"諸多這些條目都要告訴我們一件事情學校是什麼地方學校是一個國家提供讓國民進行學習受教育的地方"},{"start":38.803,"end":57.472,"text":"但是在這個地方這個學校為何我們今天諸多立法委員要來推動將公餐或午餐或營養或飲食納入到學校的服務範疇大家可以看一看中華民國憲法第160條提到了基本教育跟補習教育他說"},{"start":58.132,"end":68.723,"text":"六歲至十二歲之學齡兒童一律受基本教育免納學費這就是我們義務教育的由來其貧苦者由政府供給書籍"},{"start":70.438,"end":94.129,"text":"不知道大家有沒有注意到在上個世紀將近八十年前那時候的中華民國的狀態政府要給人民受免費的國民教育但是學習所需要的書籍還必須貧苦者政府才能幫他負擔因此過去以來我們認為學校是讓人民受教育學習"},{"start":95.149,"end":112.951,"text":"但是公餐 飲食 這是家長的事情家長你要養孩子 育孩子 教育的部分 學校幫忙分攤但是連書籍都要貧苦者政府協助供應的憑什麼政府要來負擔學童的飲食呢"},{"start":113.812,"end":138.47,"text":"別忘了這是一個上個世紀將近80年前的國家思維時至今日我們看到在學校教育裡面我們不是只有書籍可以來促進教育我們還有包括很多的設施甚至在學童學期期間他所必要的飲食跟營養這也是我們學校教育當中必須涵蓋的一部分"},{"start":139.762,"end":157.682,"text":"這個觀念上的進步促成了今天諸多委員我們紛紛提出了各種名稱不同的版本其目的就是希望我們國家正式對國民提供教育其中一項國家政府的義務就是包括提供學生在這段學期期間他所必要的營養飲食"},{"start":159.141,"end":187.859,"text":"好了 還好憲法呢 是有擴充性的在憲法規定的滴滴底線下 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謝謝趙偉今天排審我想這個台灣學生的營養午餐問題日益受到社會的關注所有家長都非常希望在這一次能夠有學生營養午餐法也就是學校公餐法的一個草案能夠早點來到立法院討論並且能夠落實"},{"start":30.836,"end":59.379,"text":"我想現在特別在外送平台的業務蓬勃的發展之際學生身心的發展與飲食的健康更是現在多數所有各界關心的一個重點然而針對學校公餐以及飲食教育的相關事項目前都沒有制定專法僅在學生學校以及衛生法中訂定有五條規定並無法涵蓋學校公餐所面臨的各種問題"},{"start":61,"end":71.666,"text":"現行各地方政府因財政的狀況還有其他的因素造成各地方的政府以及學校公餐飲食教育成多頭馬車這就是現在的心態"},{"start":72.987,"end":89.83,"text":"無法建立較為一致符合最基本要求來讓我們學校公餐的一個飲食教育有制度化還此現在我們對於高級中等以下的學校午餐的一個品質提供健康營養午餐以及"},{"start":90.831,"end":108.361,"text":"安全衛生的飲食促進身心健全發展尊重自然環境的教育目的奠定國民健康的基礎所以在這一次呢我們希望透過這個草案我們來立法來改善地方政府學校辦理公餐的一個困境我們要再一次的強調"},{"start":109.502,"end":138.862,"text":"不只是單純的公餐的過程我們希望有專法能夠來保障所有孩子在所有的飲食健康的一個權益之外包括學校的營養午餐秘書包括廚工相關等等整個產業的連結都是希望能夠在這一次草案中能夠獲得去探討來訂定之後維護我們學校學生"},{"start":139.703,"end":144.474,"text":"老師 雛工 相關等等的權益大家一起來努力 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159414","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159414","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb09a3f77d83bdbf8e901b4bb3d6676f3fdec8388057f36d628c153fc20d1be5a3b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"09:20:26 - 09:24:42","影片長度":"00:04:16","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T09:20:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T09:24:42+08:00","duration":256,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.86596875,"end":18.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.72846875,"end":123.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.72471875000001,"end":253.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.86471875,"end":257.39159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.941,"end":3.201,"text":"梁美芬議員"},{"start":18.817,"end":18.977,"text":"副市長"},{"start":49.48,"end":70.091,"text":"產業發展條例第24條及26條這個條文修正草案那也請我們所有的委員以及行政院好好的來討論我們希望能夠讓法案通過真正的全民運動我們也希望行政院在院版的方面也希望盡速來提出共同的來討論"},{"start":71.092,"end":88.662,"text":"那第二項的部分呢也就是我們的這個學校飲養午餐那本院委員楊瓊英、廖偉翔、黃建豪、蘇清泉、羅廷偉、牛許廷等21人有鑒於現行的學校飲食規範散落在相關的這個規定"},{"start":89.562,"end":107.787,"text":"中央跟地方的權責未有明確的一個規範那鄰近的日本跟韓國分別在1954年以及1981年就已經訂定了學校幾時法那建立完整的學校公餐的一個制度為校園午餐的安全來把關"},{"start":108.507,"end":123.052,"text":"而且目前我們學校午餐供應我們出現了城鄉的一個差距偏鄉的午餐菜色以及食材與都市的地區都有落差顯見學校午餐的資源存在著"},{"start":123.712,"end":126.395,"text":"為了平衡學校營養午餐發展不均的一個情況並提升校園午餐的品質使學童能夠享有營養均衡"},{"start":138.729,"end":154.565,"text":"兼顧的食品安全的午餐呢那讓台灣的校園、公餐系統、日區的完善保障學童受照顧的一個權益所以你覺得學校公餐條例草案我們也希望在共同的一個討論也希望原版"},{"start":156.667,"end":159.61,"text":"能夠儘速的來提出讓這一個專法讓我們在執行者有所本讓我們的學童在吃的營養跟吃的安全都能夠得到飲食的一個保障那麼其中在第七條裡頭我們特別要提出也就是明定"},{"start":175.026,"end":202.184,"text":"中央主管機關那麼因統籌辦理學校的午餐成立學校午餐來精進整個諮詢的委員會或相當的這個性質的一個組織研擬學校午餐發展政策與方針那麼重要是在組織以及運作方式呢在中央主管機關來訂定之重點在於這個午餐的教育綱領必須要兩年"},{"start":205.286,"end":209.249,"text":"至少要檢討一次學校的午餐精進諮詢委員會的組成專家學校的團體學者團體的代表以及現任的家長不得低於三分之一委員任意性別"},{"start":223.518,"end":251.416,"text":"這個比例呢不得低於三分之一那前將的委員你選組織以及運動方式由主管機關來定定之我們也就是希望能夠有一個公正而且讓大家都能夠有所本在監督或者在諮詢方面都能夠非常的清楚換句話說也就是所有的家長大家非常關心的希望我們的孩童可以吃的安全吃的營養吃的均衡"},{"start":252.678,"end":254.204,"text":"謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊英委員說明"}]}},{"id":"159415","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159415","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb004351b9f2fd99d1d01b4bb3d6676f3fdec8388057f36d628539f966d37fd65f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:24:48 - 09:28:48","影片長度":"00:04:00","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T09:24:48+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T09:28:48+08:00","duration":240,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.7434687500000003,"end":73.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.12909375000001,"end":201.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.97409375,"end":239.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.34784375,"end":240.97221875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.611,"text":"請大家簡短發言 謝謝"},{"start":3.766,"end":31.502,"text":"好谢谢主席那我就针对我所提案包含学校饮食健康促进法草案以及运动发展运动产业发展条例的修正草案来做提案说明在学校饮食健康促进法案里面那大家也知道就是到目前为止我们的学校公餐并没有专法那么而且呢我们现在有"},{"start":32.463,"end":56.167,"text":"在台湾包含直辖市还有各县市那么事实上也有一些的城乡差距所以有必要去定定一个统一的公餐的制度啊不要让我们的孩子在这个营养午餐在健康这个营养的部分呢出现了这样的一个落差那所以呢我提出来的草案重点啊"},{"start":56.607,"end":70.743,"text":"包括第一明確中央跟地方政府的權責劃分而建立統一的學校公餐標準第二學校應該設置公餐及飲食教育推動小組會議來辦理學校飲食"},{"start":74.306,"end":89.335,"text":"食品安全、膳食的采购、厂商集合以及其他学校公餐及饮食教育的相关事项而这个成员应该包括了外聘的专家还有营养师、教师、家长、学生等等"},{"start":90.336,"end":107.516,"text":"第三规范学校公餐的方式鼓励学校能够制设厨房确保食材来源是可溯源而且优先采用国产在地优良食材第四民地学校营养师的职责公餐人员及厨工的规范"},{"start":108.337,"end":123.887,"text":"第五 中央应该编列预算协助办理及推动学校公餐还有饮食的教育第六 加强食品安全以资讯透明化要标示过敏源的资讯"},{"start":124.747,"end":149.153,"text":"第七 推動飲食教育跟習食教育讓學生能夠培養好的飲食習慣接下來報告在運動產業發展條例的修正我們都知道其實在台灣運動人口越來越多但是我們很多的運動賽事在官方來辦的大概它的資金來源來自於運產來挹注運動發展基金或者是公務預算"},{"start":154.494,"end":180.215,"text":"那麼在民間的話也確實有很多的大企業或者是一些體育協會在長期認養但是呢很可惜的他比較長期是專注在某些特定的體育活動上面可是事實上台灣在多元發展體育活動並不僅僅只是在集中在一些少數的體育項目所以為了讓我們的民間能夠"},{"start":183.317,"end":201.182,"text":"举办运动赛事而且这些活动能够更加的扩大所以在这边我提出要修正运动产业发展条例那么在运动相关事业及体育团体"},{"start":202.122,"end":224.461,"text":"举办的运动赛事或活动如果符合加值型及非加值型营业税法第八条第一项第五款规定者他的门票收入免征营业税那么盈利事业于推行及提升全民运动发展之赛事或活动进行之捐赠"},{"start":225.302,"end":238.554,"text":"其金額不受限制用這樣的方式能夠導入更多的民間資金投入更多項的一個運動活動體育活動跟運動賽事以上報告 謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159412","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159412","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0487b385b85defcb601b4bb3d6676f3fdec8388057f36d62887e74d03d353af155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:14:23 - 09:20:20","影片長度":"00:05:57","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T09:14:23+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T09:20:20+08:00","duration":357,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":355.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.31284375,"end":357.39284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.249,"end":20.558,"text":"今天也是针对这个儿童的这个食品安全公餐法进行提案说明那首先呢我们要讲这个公餐法其实大家已经关注很久包含教育部送了很久那但是到现在都没有院版变成是呢是我们立法委员要自己来提案"},{"start":21.098,"end":35.037,"text":"但是跟過去的這個方式好像有所不同那我國經歷過重大的這麼多食安事件那新聞版面上都有報那引發國人對飲食品質的重視"},{"start":36.038,"end":56.838,"text":"那學校的家長呢也都很緊張餐點的品質食品的來源以及營養是否均衡都讓大家呢覺得很憂心那所以呢這些原則我們希望呢本來是略定於校園衛生法當中但是呢因為各地方政府自行自定"},{"start":57.398,"end":72.349,"text":"然後呢各地的財政狀況跟城鄉的民行不同那所以呢在這種多頭馬車的沒有單一法源的適用之下呢第一線的執行單位其實會有無所依循產生很多權責不清的現象"},{"start":74.23,"end":97.52,"text":"所以學校共餐當然是學生他個人必要的使用事項用餐費也是屬於代辦代收費用但我們在檢視學生在校救援的生活作息這個一定是必然應該把它視為受教權的一項而且在少子化現象來說我們更應該要重視受教品質的提升"},{"start":98.32,"end":119.209,"text":"所以呢例如鄰近國家日本早在1945年韓國在1981年就已經制定了學校的幾十法為學童來做把關那考量學校的共餐有於一般的食品業者那我想呢應該有幾項是我們呢在學校營養午餐共餐法裡面必須要修訂的"},{"start":120.45,"end":133.455,"text":"所謂第一個是12年國教的涵蓋我們應該要把國小、國中、高中那教育部本來規劃的是9年國教可是現在我們已經是12年國教了所以學齡前教育的樣態也應該要把這個12年國教一起來納入"},{"start":138.837,"end":165.175,"text":"第二點呢是我們應該要建立公餐食材的採購平台那由農業部來主導然後我們呢透過這個食材的採購平台集貨配送那有安全的食品檢測機制並且簡化學校採購食材的行政程序那確保學校公餐的國產在地食材可以穩定提供那這一部分當然也需要教育部一起來配合"},{"start":165.855,"end":195.398,"text":"那第三点呢我们应该要在学校里面设置营养师并且定定师生比因为呢我们发现在学校里面很多时候我们学生吃的东西我去翻过很多所学校他们所提供的午餐那其实呢健康度来说呢都不是很高盐分经常有过高的情形还有呢他们的食物来说的话呢其实呢你说以营养师的角度来说健康程度呢其实相对"},{"start":196.399,"end":222.059,"text":"那我們都知道一個人在從小的食物對他的習慣對他這一生來說的健康都有很大的影響比方說像有一些小朋友從小現在爸媽有觀念就給他吃少糖少鹽然後少油炸的這個清淡的飲食跟健康的飲食你會發現等到他開始上學之後他會習慣用這樣子的飲食"},{"start":224.321,"end":249.583,"text":"那對他未來長久的教育發展來說甚至他長大成人來說都會能夠保持的比較健康所以這12年國教當中呢我們建議參考日本的營養師編制基準學生數超過500名的學生學校應該要增設營養師的職位不足500人的學校由地方的教育局來分配跨校的應聘"},{"start":250.183,"end":276.615,"text":"那營養師不只是幫忙計算審查每餐的營養所需那飲食的教育推動特殊的個案也可以在校園當中即刻的介入那還有呢廚工與工餐比數這個人數的比例定定我們工餐的品質跟廚工的多寡有密不可分的關係日本來講的話他們的校園廚工跟學生的比例大概是1比80到100"},{"start":278.556,"end":294.318,"text":"那考量到國人人口老化的現象跟衝擊勞動力的市場其實我們可以逐步訂定這個提高除工的人數讓除工的人數以1比100為最終的目標"},{"start":295.459,"end":312.564,"text":"我們看到日本的人口老化非常嚴重但他們都可以做到所以台灣也一定可以最後一項就是中央專責督導專業並且督導單位並且要聯合的來稽查提高我們學子的重視他的食安層級"},{"start":313.604,"end":332.054,"text":"教育部呢我建議應該要設置專責的單位負責管理跟督導學校辦理公餐的行政業務並且呢明定每學年至少一次會同衛生農業單位定期針對校園公餐環境安全衛生以及"},{"start":332.794,"end":353.432,"text":"他們在這個所謂的標案的時候是否有貪污舞弊的行刑進行一個規範跟抽查那這就是我們在學校營養五三法飲食共餐法裡面主要我們來提供的一個幾個四項的五項的方案那也希望中央能夠採納謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"159411","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159411","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0d1cd09d6349854ad01b4bb3d6676f3fdec8388057f36d628604f80897a2691b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"09:09:42 - 09:14:18","影片長度":"00:04:36","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 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審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T09:09:42+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T09:14:18+08:00","duration":276,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.72221875,"end":143.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.78909375,"end":250.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.95784375000002,"end":258.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.72471875,"end":267.36471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.338,"end":29.725,"text":"謝謝主席今天安排學校公餐法法案的一個討論大家都知道我們全國的學童每一天很重要的營養午餐在學校裡面吃但是這一餐吃的是不是營養吃的是不是安全那所有的家長都非常的關心那今天有這麼多的委員提出學校公餐法"},{"start":30.185,"end":41.712,"text":"就代表這件事情其實是大家高度矚目的那本席這邊也提出了學校公餐法的專法主要是我看到我們現在現行的營養午餐還存在著許多的問題需要解決第一個其實我們在調查方面發現全國每一個月公餐的熱量有發生超過930大卡情形的有高達46%"},{"start":58.263,"end":77.867,"text":"前一陣子呢大家還發現小朋友吃的銀絲捲竟然捏出來通通都是油所以熱量超標這樣的情況需要把關第二個我們學校是食物中毒場所的第二名那所以過去都有一些的食安事件讓我們發現學校的食品衛生管理應該要有一個全國的專法好好的來把關第三個"},{"start":85.908,"end":101.975,"text":"像這個之前的蘇丹紅事件他四處流竄然後進到校園那就可以看到全國的縣市他們採取的標準是不一致的像在嘉義縣的教育局他就說這個蘇丹紅絕對不會流進我們學校結果馬上被打臉了這個實務已經流入校園那有的學校就比較積極採取事先預防的措施所以像這樣子這個全國不一致的情況"},{"start":114.321,"end":142.912,"text":"也應該透過一個中央的專法來給一個全面性的規範所以這次本席提出來的學校公餐法總共有7張30條這裡面比較重要的是我們應該要訂定專責單位制定公餐的規範而且應該要定期召開會議我們來做相關的這樣的一個孩子飲食的一個把關第二個是我們必須建立食安的標準"},{"start":143.852,"end":148.234,"text":"而且讓這些人員可以定期的去研習進修來維持我們營養午餐的品質那第三個是我們賦予主管機關有這個稽查的權利去落實監督那如果有一些業者他是不合格的一個情況的話那就賦予公權利可以直接介入跟處罰"},{"start":168.743,"end":187.955,"text":"那第四個是長期來我關心弱勢學童的權益那這個學校午餐是弱勢學童一天當中最重要的一餐所以呢這個部分我們應該就是要建立起一個一致性的標準我們透過營養午餐我們供應這一些弱勢學生"},{"start":188.615,"end":193.038,"text":"在這個特別是偏鄉跟弱勢離島的這些孩子上面讓他們在營養午餐的費用的補助就是可以全部免費讓弱勢的孩子可以安心的在學校吃午餐那我們可以看到像日本"},{"start":206.286,"end":229.575,"text":"跟韓國 事實上他們都在幾十年前日本是在1954年早就有中央專法韓國在1981年就有中央專法比台灣早了非常非常的多那雖然教育部之前有訂定這樣子的一個規範但它一直都不是一個中央的專法所以把它提升到一個中央的位階讓全國有一致性的標準"},{"start":232.176,"end":250.089,"text":"然後讓我們的所有學校營養午餐的安全跟營養可以更加的落實我覺得這個是一個重要的工程所以希望透過這一次的修法我們可以提供給孩子一個既營養又安全又健康的營養午餐以上 謝謝"},{"start":252.731,"end":267.177,"text":"謝謝王玉明委員那待會我們提案說明的順序徐巧欣委員、楊瓊英委員、王洪威委員、羅廷維委員、徐一貞委員那我們現在有請徐巧欣委員進行提案說明"}]}},{"id":"159410","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159410","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb08a122ef9ba6acdf701b4bb3d6676f3fdec8388057f36d6284694c160275afada5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:05:14 - 09:09:36","影片長度":"00:04:22","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T09:05:14+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T09:09:36+08:00","duration":262,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.55346875,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.84284375,"end":42.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.095968750000004,"end":112.94159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.03846875,"end":117.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.70034375,"end":140.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.46034375000002,"end":202.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.34096875,"end":207.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.43721875,"end":226.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.69159375,"end":242.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.98034375,"end":259.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.96909375,"end":261.74534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.594,"end":15.097,"text":"主席各位委員以及在場的官員大家好本席針對學校公參法以及運動產業發展條例綜合作提案說明首先學校公參法"},{"start":15.916,"end":41.65,"text":"我國高中以下的學校飲食供應辦理情形從過去到現在大部分都辦理良好但還是存在少部分的食材安全營養不均餐費落差的情況也因此嚴重影響學生跟校園飲食的基本權益雖然現在現行的學校衛生法部分條文是已經有規範但僅做原則性的規範"},{"start":43.317,"end":65.171,"text":"對於我們所需要在另推的專法要符合當今學校飲食跟營養教育所需並且參考日本的學校給食給食法的立法宗旨學校飲食不僅是限於營養午餐的供給更應該兼具營養健康跟教育的目的也因此我們提出來"},{"start":66.252,"end":92.189,"text":"符合聯合國所提出的永續發展目標的指標讓我們的學生跟學校都能夠一起來訂立相關的專法而其中本席所提出來的學校共產法的專法包括實施對象中央地方的政府權責學校應該遵循的事項營養師等人員職長分工及合理的配置對於學生的飲食指導及營養教育"},{"start":96.492,"end":112.614,"text":"與全都能夠來健全期待能夠有完整的學校公餐體系未來我們也希望在召委的排審跟教育文化委員會大家共同的討論之下教育部能夠儘速的推出院版而"},{"start":114.313,"end":139.726,"text":"對於我們的學校營養午餐長久來看還是需要透過專法來保障經費穩定提升食品的安全促進營養的均衡以及強化監督的機制將環境永續跟食農教育都一起納入發展目標才能夠真真正正的確保每一個學生都獲得健康安全以及符合需求的營養餐食"},{"start":141.516,"end":168.022,"text":"在運動產業發展條例第24條及26條的條文修正裡面本席也看到過去在2021年曾經運動產業發展條例增訂26支2條有關營業事業捐贈職業或業餘運動的重點賽事的相關稅優惠的措施但是仍有不足之處尤其是已經經過了三年的時間我們更希望能夠來做進一步的強化"},{"start":168.863,"end":189.122,"text":"讓當初立法修法的美意不要打折因此本席提出鼓勵運動事業舉辦運動賽事或活動增加民眾參觀從事參觀性或參與性運動消費支出在24條之一明訂運動事業符合本條規定者請門票收入可免徵營業稅"},{"start":190.643,"end":205.183,"text":"另外在26條增訂第一項第六款明定營利事業推行促進全民運動發展的賽事或活動能夠不受金額的限制本次提案的修法鼓勵運動事業及民間團體多舉辦"},{"start":209.219,"end":224.144,"text":"運動賽事或是活動促進民眾觀賽的意願以及動機同時也給予運動員支持及關注進而營造運動產業良好的經營環境最終打造全民運動的正向循環而在運動產業發展條例本席很樂見"},{"start":227.725,"end":241.545,"text":"教育部已經有針對這個說明做出了正向的回應並且也說明行政院已經將運動產業發展條例修正案列為本會期的優先法案也因此我們期待能夠跟"},{"start":243.087,"end":257.745,"text":"行政部門 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主席謝謝麻煩請郭部長郭部長"},{"start":18.125,"end":35.195,"text":"好 國務部長 只有4分鐘喔不過還是簡要的跟你質詢一下就是能源是國安議題我想大家也都重視能源為什麼之前一直講是說一定要操之在己那最近又再傳出因為你之前提過說菲律賓重電這樣的一個訊息也改口了"},{"start":35.515,"end":56.436,"text":"但最近又在傳出說是可行性評估已經完成是不是來我先確認一下兩件事如果說真的經濟部目前規劃或是台電公司目前規劃要跟菲律賓買電的話是要跟菲律賓的原有的電力公司買還是要跟台商在那邊投資的電力公司買"},{"start":57.217,"end":74.327,"text":"報告委員都不是以上皆非好那怎麼樣第一個先看那個地方適不適合發展綠能的電力比如說有沒有這個土地啊土地夠不夠土地到底夠不夠能夠做這個太陽能光電或者是做這個"},{"start":76.768,"end":98.008,"text":"就是土地的問題嗎來再來所以我們可行性評估已經算過了是這個兩種那邊有足夠的土地足夠的土地有沒有那有沒有辦法把這個成本壓低目前看起來成本一度墊是五塊五以上嗎不是我們的可行性評估一度墊發展出來一定是兩塊以內好"},{"start":99.534,"end":102.738,"text":"那再來你現在講是說兩塊以內但本席剛剛問的問題在於是說是跟現有菲律賓的電力公司買還是誰發電我們讓國內的讓國內的做這個光電的廠商跟做這個陸域風電的廠商"},{"start":118.755,"end":143.326,"text":"我們會幫助他擴展台灣市場是希望國內的廠商到菲律賓去圈地發電然後再把那個電發出來之後賣回來給台灣原則是這樣但是地是由經濟部幫助他們找更大的地跟菲律賓官方來談我們跟菲律賓的官方正在進行這方面的研究"},{"start":144.867,"end":169.197,"text":"所以現在是接觸到什麼程度了現在接觸的到就是我們還是在做可行性評估的階段已經評估完了認為可行的開始要進入實境調查我們現在的綠電在台灣的發電成本相對來講是高的那其中很大的一個部分是我們的零組件都是從哪一些國家進口"},{"start":169.847,"end":196.247,"text":"我們的零組件一部分是國內生產一部分從境外是,哪些國家境外的國家大概現在中國、越南、泰國我們有接受中國大陸的零組件嗎我們不准中國進來是啊,那這樣你怎麼剛會講說有中國的零組件我是外國的供應鏈有在中國的,也有在越南的但是我們能夠接受的進口的零組件主要還是泰國跟越南嗎是的"},{"start":196.727,"end":215.614,"text":"那全世界這個我其實之前就諮詢過囉我說全世界裡面來講中國大陸確實不可諱言他們的光電發電的零組件或是技術相對成熟能源是選擇但是因為我們國家有國安的相關疑慮所以我們不准中國大陸進口但菲律賓咧"},{"start":217.25,"end":233.662,"text":"菲律賓他百分之多少是用中國大陸的零組件我們現在這樣子報告委員所以我才講嘛所以我們大概就是買電發你不要先不要轉移焦點我先請教是說菲律賓發電現在有多少是中國大陸零組件這個我不清楚"},{"start":234.122,"end":248.118,"text":"你不清楚我們沒有同仁現在我們一個經濟部部長要到菲律賓那麼重要的國家講說我們的能源政策是要到菲律賓買電結果不清楚說菲律賓有多少是用中國大陸的零組件來做發電"},{"start":249.7,"end":277.93,"text":"委員你這樣的這個質詢那你知不知道那這樣子我就要更嚴重懷疑我現在很聚焦啊不是部長那我現在嚴重懷疑您知不知道2024年菲律賓有馬尼拉電力公司他還跟中國大陸的中國電力建設集團簽約有工程採購跟施工的合約我們跟他沒有關係啦不是菲律賓有那麼多好所以我現在很直接的請教跟"},{"start":278.71,"end":290.489,"text":"要求你的溝通或是你的這個未來的規劃裡面台灣的廠商到菲律賓去做發電會不會用到中國大陸的零組件不可能"},{"start":291.611,"end":317.623,"text":"會在合約裡面明白確定我沒有跟他什麼合約但是我如果買電的時候我就會你就會要求嘛跟國內一樣嘛跟我們台灣國內一樣跟國內一樣對不對當然這是本席站在這邊要捍衛我們台灣的一個權益就是要求經濟部提出來即便是未來有任何規劃到菲律賓你也不能用中國大陸的零組件"},{"start":319.503,"end":347.329,"text":"國內台灣的境內的規定是一模一樣的當然因為以我專業的報告他們的零組件是有安全上面的問題非常好所以我們不會用本席就是要經濟部長徹底的承諾在公開的經濟委員會裡面徹底承諾就是即便是我們有台灣的廠商到菲律賓投資也不能因為在海外而用中國大陸的零組件是的謝謝委員謝謝我們有這個機會"},{"start":349.094,"end":349.114,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159441","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159441","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0cf242f815763108101b4bb3d6676f3fd525a0be0b44ec4a32f3f07a615f4351a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"10:26:12 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審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T10:26:12+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T10:40:03+08:00","duration":831,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.29659375,"end":1.9040937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.46034375,"end":8.265968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.46409375,"end":11.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.88534375,"end":16.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.450343750000002,"end":65.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.152843750000002,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.097843750000003,"end":31.890968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.890968750000003,"end":31.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.665968750000005,"end":40.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.85159375,"end":41.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.03346875,"end":74.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.51721875,"end":74.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.58471875000001,"end":75.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.96846875,"end":127.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.83784375000002,"end":129.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.81221875,"end":135.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.58346875,"end":140.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.24534375000002,"end":146.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.01221875000002,"end":162.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.88034375,"end":154.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.63846875000002,"end":173.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.40471875,"end":183.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.15409375000002,"end":184.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.06534375,"end":185.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.11159375000003,"end":206.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.02409375000002,"end":230.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.32409375,"end":230.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.50971875000002,"end":230.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.96534375000002,"end":249.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.12909375,"end":236.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.14596875,"end":238.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.22159375,"end":238.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.23846875,"end":239.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.51221875000002,"end":244.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.35909375000003,"end":253.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.40971875000002,"end":260.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.02846875,"end":261.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.73284375000003,"end":261.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.94784375,"end":262.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.03221875,"end":262.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.08284375,"end":262.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.15034375,"end":274.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.50471875,"end":264.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.85721875,"end":329.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.17346875000004,"end":331.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.01721875000004,"end":360.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.55846875000003,"end":351.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.31346875,"end":352.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.08846875,"end":365.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.91471875,"end":440.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.51784375,"end":368.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.19596875,"end":433.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.30471875,"end":435.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.96284375000005,"end":436.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.03034375000004,"end":436.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.58721875000003,"end":438.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.97471875,"end":442.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.25721875000005,"end":442.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.59471875,"end":494.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.70409375,"end":445.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.83034375000005,"end":447.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.15471875000003,"end":450.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.34034375000005,"end":450.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.960343750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謝謝召委 有請次長請次長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":14.519,"end":30.85,"text":"謝謝主席 羅委員好次長你好 次長對我來說您不只是次長您更是我們台中市的立法委員曾經在我們面前是一個非常溫文儒雅而且對台中市是非常非常重視學生的權益"},{"start":32.811,"end":60.201,"text":"對我來說您是我的學長所以在有些議題上我一定會尊重你那我也想有一些事情想跟你探討我想在這一次呢人民是頭家的一個宣講當中我們認同這是一個民主的一個活動那您也在現場對吧對那我們很可惜看到何新淳委員在提到了所謂的公費留學的相關獎學金因為刪減導致無法出國留學當下"},{"start":61.641,"end":89.791,"text":"我想你也在現場那你有跟他說這是錯誤的資訊嗎我當時沒有跟他碰到面他講因為我們在人很多那我當時應該是在宮廟裡面跟董事會在一起跟那個董建士在一起好沒關係那可是我要講的是說剛剛你也再一次的澄清這是一個錯誤的資訊包括阿克志恩委員所提到的相關的一些培育國際人才的一些經費還有公費留考舉辦的相關出國獎學金這些都是"},{"start":90.211,"end":116.326,"text":"沒有任何刪一毛錢也沒有去凍結一毛錢而且還比去年還多那在這樣子的情況之下我想還有所謂的謠言當著上百人在這邊直接宣講並且說了是藍白砍預算而導致了這個學生的權益受損我們是覺得非常的遺憾怎麼會有立法委員會直接在這樣子造謠"},{"start":117.006,"end":134.659,"text":"那另外我想跟您詢問的是我們不只沒有三預算在這一次我想賴清德總統有提到的所謂的青年百億海外圓夢計畫這個您知道嗎您知道這個計畫嗎您知道在這一次申請有多少人申請嗎"},{"start":136.616,"end":151.846,"text":"我們是不是請青年署來講細節的部分我們請副署長好不好沒關係我想副署長我大概引述一下網路資料啦4437位爆量要來報名參與這一次的青年海外基金圓夢計畫對嗎對"},{"start":153.567,"end":172.436,"text":"沒錯對吧我想不只是我們沒有三億毛錢沒有動一毛錢而在這一次青年海外基金圓夢計畫已經爆量參加我們看到了有這麼多的青年學子對於海外圓夢給予支持賴清德總統的一個政見"},{"start":173.536,"end":200.897,"text":"在實現的過程我想我們這些做立法委員只要是有利於我們的學子在未來的發展我們都給予支持所以我非常可惜學長市長在這一次所謂的人民是投家就針對這一點所謂的留學獎金被刪減導致無法出國留學的部分我們感到遺憾您可以承諾在這個所謂的及時澄清的網頁上趕緊將這一個"},{"start":203.839,"end":219.33,"text":"並不是事實的一個事件來做一個澄清嗎我想這個已經在我們的審查報告裡面都很清楚的提供了那我們也沒有辦法去對每一個網路的訊息或被引用的訊息那來一一澄清不過你提到的這個"},{"start":220.451,"end":248.748,"text":"蔣學金的部分我們會請國際司請這個相關業務單位來把這個審查的結果再次的跟外界來說明跟國人一起報告像我永遠都能夠同意網路資訊千萬種不可能每天都應對這些事情沒有這樣的能力但今天算是我們恳請你能夠就針對這件事情已經造成了某些國人的恐慌家長的恐慌"},{"start":249.528,"end":271.157,"text":"我說身為教育部應該有責任去做這個試疑舊委員所說的這個項目的審查的結果我們一定會說那針對性的我想我們不是教育單位我們不需要你在網頁上針對任何一個沒有好奇 針對某一個案子不用 你不用針對個人你就政策上的一個說明讓家長能夠適宜讓家長至少知道這件事情他們可以繼續申請這樣可以嗎可以好 謝謝"},{"start":275.799,"end":294.55,"text":"那另外我想跟次長探討2019年教育部就已經拟據了學校午餐條例這個草案並於同年4月3日公告期間4到6月也召開多次的公聽會跟座談會國教署也於112年成立了學校午餐科都已經準備好了但是6年6年過去了"},{"start":296.631,"end":322.263,"text":"這個什麼原因來催生六年的一個法案可以躺在行政院還是因為科的層級太低無法食材烹調食安運輸以及飲食的部分教育來面向的一個議題來做一個探討我想教育部的網站上我們可以看到112年12月28日的新聞稿還掛著教育部預計立法院下一個會期提出的學校午餐專法的一個草案部長"},{"start":323.223,"end":329.341,"text":"對不起 次長一年已經過去了 到現在都還沒有看到剛剛你有提到已經有布板"},{"start":330.27,"end":359.166,"text":"月板什麼時候會通過?那個謝謝委員給我機會來說明啦其實剛才萬委員也問同樣的問題那其實當時我也在當立法委員我很清楚當時教育部把專法這個教育部的專法的草案跟地方政府溝通的時候我們產生很多很多的問題比如說第一個現在營養午餐的型態有公辦公營、公辦民營、有民辦民營他們各自規範也不一樣現在大概就是五十幾萬、五十萬、五十五萬大概供應一百六十萬人三種型態各三分之一這一個"},{"start":360.126,"end":383.144,"text":"第二個現在有10個縣市是採取營養午餐免費最便宜的42.5元我知道樣態不一樣馬祖最好75元是那你如何去訂一個專法讓這些縣市都要照我們的規範或者說要怎麼樣來形成一個這個其實是有困難我沒有改變我的立場我們還是希望孩子吃得好所以在這方面"},{"start":383.784,"end":407.186,"text":"吃的安全吃的好所以在這方面我們在質詢之後我當時也沒有提版本但是增加營養師啦增加張Q的費用啦增加弱勢孩童的這個偏鄉的廚房的補助我都支持也是這樣子所以教育部在109年到111年用專案的方式來補助花了75億所以我們都知道修一個法最重要是什麼資源投入嘛是"},{"start":407.786,"end":423.711,"text":"所以在這三年大家談到要用專法的這三年已經形成了一個很好的預算的投入就是每年74億包括弱勢偏鄉的孩子的補助21億每年偏鄉的中央廚房15億包括食材張Q的補助38億用可溯源的國產食材"},{"start":429.813,"end":444.586,"text":"這個其實你在剛剛報告的時候都有講我有聽所以我說邊不是專法沒有上路中央就不重視這個你放心我願意給你說明的時間我覺得這個是我不能接受的原因謝謝我剛剛沒有說你改變了好 謝謝對吧 我應該從頭到尾都沒有說吧好 謝謝"},{"start":445.307,"end":470.62,"text":"那我也給你時間說明剛剛您的一開始的報告也都有講到這包括相關的一些預算你們投入的一些經費但是我要講的是說已經六年了我們還是希望不管是預算上剛剛其他的委員都很關心我們能夠有一個草案出來大家對於自愛難行的地方我們針對來討論你也提到了有公辦民營有相關的一些樣態我們要怎麼去針對各個樣態"},{"start":473.621,"end":488.734,"text":"去逐一的協助還有各個縣市有所謂的營養午餐免費有所謂營養午餐沒有免費有所謂補助比較高的有補助比較低的我們都一一的納入到這一個專法我覺得還是要多溝通啦"},{"start":489.855,"end":515.071,"text":"我們可以 不能否認吧多溝通 將它其納入我們不用說一定要改變它現有的樣態因為基本上還是要尊重縣市政府嘛那至於你後面說的因為某部分的法案有可能要地方來自籌的部分可以討論啊今天不是說鐵板一塊大家不能討論嗎因為所謂財化法現在有相關的我們的一些財源下放到地方"},{"start":515.791,"end":540.004,"text":"要不要也下放一些相關的權利給地方應該要自己執行這是可以探討的啊對不對我們沒有說只要錢不要權利啊只要錢不要事啊我想這是一個不負責任的但是給了錢也要給相關的權利這是地方市政府應該也要因應的我可以回答嗎好請說我想就是要回答我們其實是非常同意羅委員這種說法你可以採納我說法吧所以我們去年不是去年其實辦了陸續辦了五場五場的這個諮詢會跟座談會跟地方政府也探討"},{"start":544.326,"end":559.118,"text":"所以在11月20已經把版本送到院了我剛才已經說明過了過了一個月之後才有辦法通過那事實上院在審查的時候就問我們說這個補助的經費將來中央跟地方如何分攤所以我們是必要需要跟地方政府再去好好去探討這個事情"},{"start":560.519,"end":586.823,"text":"這個我都能夠認同但是我想我們還是希望教育部在這個具體的一些採取實質措施推動專法的過程我們可以看到有更加的一些作為那今天報告寫到2019年4月3日公告2019年4月到6月召開多次的公聽會座談會請問是召開幾場你有沒有去你要現在打是會後來那個署長大概幾場就好了我們召開四場以上會後可以提供資料"},{"start":587.463,"end":603.194,"text":"那能不能提供教育部歷次召開公聽會跟座談會的會議記錄我們明天中午以前好不好那個資料都給我們一下我想這篇報導新聞標題下得很好日本校園午餐成功的一個秘密每件小事都要管"},{"start":603.874,"end":628.566,"text":"每件小事都要管今天我們先還是要回到草案內容我們希望說到底我們為了什麼為了學生營養午餐的健康為了營養師我們來努力為了廚工我們來努力為了學校的體制我們來努力因為我們看到光是學校的營養午餐秘書真的非常的辛苦這個部分我們是不是每件小事都要管我希望我們的營養午餐的立法也是成功的甚至能夠"},{"start":629.426,"end":652.776,"text":"作為其他國家的一個借鏡另外在今年2月27日我們的監委田秋瑾蔡崇義發布的新聞稿各縣市學校午餐自治條例等不同法令的規章缺乏全國一致性的做法以學校午餐費用的為例各縣市補助的金額跟學生的餐費皆不相同"},{"start":653.936,"end":676.409,"text":"針對食材費用佔餐費的比例無強制的規範不但影響學生用餐的品質亦造成各縣市學生權益不平等的一個現象且學生若對學校午餐滿意度低落往往轉以零食飲料果腹國家投注的經費新力付諸流水"},{"start":676.989,"end":698.673,"text":"教育部有檢討改進的一個責任喔 我想 次長 監委的新聞稿啊以國家投注的經費付諸流水 次長我再講一次齁 監委用付諸流水付諸流水是什麼意思 就是浪費了我們再來看這張齁 監委的新聞稿 次長教育部在今年的預算增加300多億 營養午餐還是"},{"start":701.334,"end":724.446,"text":"沒有辦法可以把它辦理更好六 我們評比項目全書日函到底是怎麼一回事 次長你覺得呢你講的那個部分很多是地方政府的落差啦我們會加強跟他們溝通好不好這個平常是還有很多包括食安的管理的問題那是屬於管理層次我們都會在議中央督導"},{"start":725.406,"end":749.331,"text":"機關的角色好好跟地方溝通我想台灣的沒有比日韓差那為什麼學生營養午餐的這個業務做得比日韓還差我們有必要去檢討更希望在這個專法的探討過程中有必要性我們要納入一起來把這個所謂的孩童的營養午餐能夠超越日韓政府所提供的這個服務還要更好我想在每人用餐的費用上台灣每餐餐費是40到60"},{"start":751.511,"end":760.406,"text":"日本是125元啦當然我知道日本有所謂的我去過日本參觀他們的物價啦這個我們都知道你也去參觀過他們的供給過程當然"},{"start":763.416,"end":785.724,"text":"成本比較高我都能夠體諒但是我們不能夠去否認他們的確投注的金額是很敢給的那當然後續我們也希望能夠探討在專法未通過之前如何改善通過之後我們要如何在生效的時候準備起有相關的改善方案我們一起來加油為了孩子好謝謝委員的關心謝謝我相信以前你也是有一個口號"},{"start":786.624,"end":808.237,"text":"孩子就是未來我們一起再努力好不好一起努力可以嗎教育經費不要煽動就有增加300億了不要再說了有自愛男性的地方我們要多做很多事情歡迎你提出追加預算你要解凍我們台中市一定做你的後盾你要解凍大家一起來努力可以嗎但是前提是把政策做好落實讓孩子更好謝謝"},{"start":809.397,"end":817.942,"text":"謝謝 謝謝委員關心 謝謝好 謝謝羅廷惠委員質詢好 官員請回座那我們接下來有請林佩祥委員繼續質詢好 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GPT生成式的AI人事法規查詢系統及以英轉文字稿的會議紀錄摘要功能提供更便捷的人事法規查詢及會議紀錄產生的一個服務那從113年到今年的2月底"},{"start":2129.538,"end":2152.47,"text":"我們使用人數已經達五萬人次今年將持續推動WebHR整合前序部相關作業流程以達人事資訊作業單一系統服務本總處將持續配合國家發展趨勢及政府施政重點推動智慧化人事服務提升政府競爭力敬請各位委員繼續會議支持以上報告進行指教"},{"start":2155.865,"end":2171.618,"text":"好 謝謝機關代表報告完畢相關書面內容請各位來參閱並列入公報紀錄因為議事錄之前已經宣讀完畢尚未確定現在先確定議事錄請問各位上次會議事錄有錯誤或遺漏"},{"start":2173.55,"end":2198.481,"text":"如果沒有的話我們議事錄就確定了那現在開始來進行詢答本會委員詢答時間8分鐘那必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間是5分鐘並不再延長那上午10點半的時候我們截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位我們黃國昌黃委員"},{"start":2205.421,"end":2208.264,"text":"謝謝主席 我們來有請人事長請人事長委員長人事長早喔 我從去年開始就一直非常關注軍公教挑釁機制的法制化"},{"start":2220.677,"end":2248.884,"text":"那事實上這個法治化拖延過久從2018年的時候監察院就具體的指責你應該還記得在去年的時候你們在五月的時候把軍公教調心機制法治化的書面報告送來我那時候問你啊說去年年底因為你答應嘛去年年底以前要把法案送到本院來我還問你說會不會跳票"},{"start":2249.81,"end":2276.856,"text":"你說不會跳票會送到大院來我還問你說您以前會送來然後你說會 會送來有送來嗎謝謝委員給我這個機會來說明事實上在上一年的12月6號我們已經簽成行政院而且在12月7號的時候有林政府委員召開會議審查事實上我們現在就等行政院要送到大院來審議"},{"start":2279.215,"end":2308.404,"text":"所以到目前為止沒有送來是確定嗎我們四十一個一個來啦第一個法案沒有送到立法院來確定嗎對所以是行政院不願意嗎這個現在是行政院在拖嗎行政院他等著要排入整個宴會的議程今天你送來的業務報告啊軍公教調清機制的法制化也不是你今年的重要的工作目標啊所以我看了就很困惑啊現在大家是要打假球嗎"},{"start":2310.27,"end":2335.779,"text":"去年答應我年底以前要送到立法院來也沒有送來啊現在推給行政院推給行政院以後又落入了我們大家非常熟悉的無限循環什麼叫非常熟悉的無限循環不斷的演繹 持續的演繹不曉得要演繹到什麼時候嘛而且你今天的業務報告你上面有寫軍公教調性機制的法制化嗎有嗎"},{"start":2337.836,"end":2360.151,"text":"那個是在上一年上一年寫的那已經在上一年寫的有完成嗎我們就等行政院排入整個院會討論完不是啦我對於行政機關大家這樣皮球踢來踢去我真的嘆為觀止啦真的嘆為觀止啦去年答應要送來我還特別問你會不會跳票"},{"start":2361.434,"end":2376.354,"text":"你還信誓旦旦跟我說不會跳票到現在就是沒看到嘛來我具體的問啦從過去的經驗法則啊如果要等行政院送來我看要等到天荒地老到2028年都不會送來"},{"start":2377.748,"end":2393.383,"text":"我進一步具體的問我們針對有關於軍公教的人員待遇調整條例草案台灣民眾黨我們已經正式提案了如果我拜託召委排案審查你們會不會反對樂觀其成還是反對希望等行政院"},{"start":2396.071,"end":2421.3,"text":"樂觀啟程絕對樂觀啟程嘛好第二個重要的問題啊就是公務人員的安慰辦法我們從2018年第一次在立法院見面的時候你應該記得很清楚嘛當初說要調整沒有調整所以去年3月我也肯定你很有擔當啦答應的事情沒有做到你也在司法法制委員會震動道歉我也接受了"},{"start":2422.06,"end":2446.216,"text":"我覺得政務官啊應該要像你這個樣子就有擔當嘛我答應的事情沒有做到我鄭重道歉這個是應該有一個啊基本的風範啊而不是東西跳票了以後啊還在那邊東拉西扯不願意負起啊政治責任但是您道歉歸道歉該追的事情我還是會追啦是好寶訊會"},{"start":2450.902,"end":2474.262,"text":"一樣我去年追保訓會因為真正的主管單位是我們考試院的保訓會嘛那只不過保訓會在訂這個辦法的時候通常會跟人總啊去做一個協商我去年追了半天啊保訓會在今年二月的時候終於預告了安慰辦法修正草案這個安慰辦法修正草案人事總處有沒有看過"},{"start":2475.356,"end":2492.255,"text":"有 有看過滿意嗎整個過程一直在跟我們討論滿意嗎就是不是滿意的問題是大家兩院之間大家對相關條文的規定有一個共識這是比較重要所以現在這個安慰辦法是人總也有共識的喔"},{"start":2492.987,"end":2506.841,"text":"就是他整個過程我們持續兩方都有高密度的在一起討論我為什麼要先問這個問題啊因為我看了安慰辦法以後啊我跟任市長報告我非常不滿意啊"},{"start":2507.799,"end":2526.148,"text":"我非常不滿意啊我為什麼說非常不滿意剛剛你在報告的時候也有提到嘛針對於有關於職場霸凌的機制公務人員被霸凌的機制去年的時候我們勞動部啊發生的不幸事件讓整個社會憤怒"},{"start":2528.407,"end":2554.705,"text":"我們的政府也說要改革在這次的安慰辦法裡面我的確有看到針對職場霸凌的部分有設置相關的條文規定嘛任市長你看過嗎我有看過你覺得那樣的條文規定足夠嗎我覺得是要考慮到條文的一個完整性還有可執行性還是蠻重要的好 我們就來看它的完整性跟可執行性嘛來看一下"},{"start":2556.633,"end":2577.483,"text":"第36條規定啊各機關不可以因為公務人員提起職場霸凌的申訴給予不利的行政處分嘛那我下一個問題如果因為職場霸凌的申訴給不利的處分它的法律效果是什麼法律效果事實上當事人他可以跟保訓會提起救濟啊"},{"start":2578.766,"end":2604.908,"text":"你不用這個規定我也可以提起救濟啊重點是什麼重點就是你要確保一個安全的職場環境嘛不要讓他因為提起申訴而受到不利益的處分嘛那你要用法律效果是什麼制止他讓他不敢做不利益的處分所以我才問你的法律效果是什麼嘛如果你的法律效果是你被不利益的處分那你自己可以去救濟"},{"start":2606.314,"end":2616.767,"text":"那這36條的規定那不是形同劇文嗎寫好看的啊你有這條沒這條都一樣啊我本來就可以提起行政救濟啊我有說錯嗎"},{"start":2618.727,"end":2642.039,"text":"我這裡跟委員補充一下很重要這一次有增加對機關首長的一個懲處給他一個責任很重要的就是以前大家等於就是說你按照你的標準程序保訓會的救濟可是機關首長你如果承受一些懲處的壓力他在執行這件事情他會更加的謹慎我具體給你看什麼叫做"},{"start":2643.544,"end":2673.147,"text":"不敢給他不利的處分有不利的處分要有法律效果來保証會2021年的時候他們就委託研究計畫就直接講嘛公務人員安慰辦法因為在公務人員保障法19條的授權規定裡面沒有給他有強制性的作為沒有處罰的規定沒有罰則沒有用嘛你們今天修了安慰辦法但公務人員保障法長得還是一模一樣啊長得還是一模一樣啊"},{"start":2674.244,"end":2699.491,"text":"你們結構性的問題修了這個安慰辦法一樣沒有解決那針對有關職場霸凌申訴的部分台灣民眾黨黨團針對職場霸凌防治法我們已經提了專法透過專法來加以處理任市長贊不贊成基本上我會尊重那個委員的一個提議第二個我更進一步具體的問"},{"start":2700.171,"end":2727.28,"text":"不可以做不當的差別待遇喔你如果做不當的差別待遇因為申訴接下來有行政法環的規定這才是有法律效果嘛法律人在講的法律效果指的就是這個嘛你不能做什麼事你如果做了什麼事接下來會有什麼法律效果但是你們的安慰辦法根本沒有啊你們的安慰辦法完全沒有啊跟當初保訓會在2021年花錢找學者做的委託研究計畫"},{"start":2729.062,"end":2746.506,"text":"所指責的缺點長得一模一樣啊這樣的修法方向人事長贊不贊成不過我這裡要跟委員報告在整個公告版本之後我們在跟保訓會談的時候事實上有加入那個裁罰的部分規範在第幾條你說你們有加入裁罰的部分嗎規範在第幾條"},{"start":2758.928,"end":2768.722,"text":"保障法本身對嘛 就不是安慰辦法嘛所以我一開始我開宗明義就請教你那個安慰辦法你看了你滿意不滿意嘛"},{"start":2769.697,"end":2798.736,"text":"我看了以後我就很直接跟人事長講嘛我看了就不滿意嘛為什麼看了不滿意沒有辦法解決問題嘛所以你們現在重新協調過了以後現在是要推動公務人員保障法的修正草案嗎現在是公務員保障法跟安慰辦法同時一起處理這樣兩邊來確保當事人的一些潛意確保還有給機關所長我跟人事長講一個基本的法律概念"},{"start":2799.637,"end":2816.756,"text":"你公務人員保障法修完了以後你的安慰辦法才可以有牙齒這存在很久的問題剛剛你的同事在下面幫你打PASS我就在問說你們是不是要推動公務人員保障法的修法你的同事一直在那邊點頭你可能沒有看到"},{"start":2818.177,"end":2837.419,"text":"我們同步在進行我跟你講這種事情所謂同步在進行公務人員保障法你如果沒有用法律的層次把它修好的話你去處理安慰辦法一樣沒有辦法解決問題現在我一個最關鍵的問題公務人員保障法的修法草案這個會籍可以送來嗎"},{"start":2843.314,"end":2856.664,"text":"這個考試院我們了解的是安慰辦法大概四月底五月初會送到六合院來備查啦對啊 但現在問題就出來了你公務人員保障法沒有修你的安慰辦法"},{"start":2857.384,"end":2878.937,"text":"就還是一樣按照舊的公務人員保障法授權訂的安慰辦法一樣沒有牙齒阿阿你剛剛又講同步阿現在又說4月會先被採保障法應該現在情緒部也同時在找相關機關在訂阿我這樣講好了啦有的時候一些不幸的事件發生的時候社會娛樂會很強烈"},{"start":2880.698,"end":2900.586,"text":"政府機關會信誓旦旦的說要做什麼事情但是往往新聞過後沒有人在意了沒有人在意了你們的腳步是不是有真的做到當初承諾的就需要追蹤而我的習慣我相信任市長應該非常熟悉我的習慣是我一定會追到底"},{"start":2901.434,"end":2929.299,"text":"我一定會追到底這個會期喔這個會期針對有關於公務人員保障法也好針對有關於職場霸凌的專法也好針對有關於公務人員調薪機制的法治化也好我期待行政部門趕快把你們的東西送到本會來你們東西如果不送來我會拜託召委排審因為台灣民眾黨黨團我們全部修法的版本全部都提出來了"},{"start":2930.542,"end":2949.679,"text":"從公務人員調薪機制的法制化到職場霸凌的專法到公務人員保障法我們全部都提出來了我希望到時候不要因為行政機關提不出法案又繼續拖延 可以嗎會朝這個方向努力好 謝謝好 謝謝黃國昌委員我們接下來請林倩琦委員發言"},{"start":2966.269,"end":2974.812,"text":"我們主席還有我們立院行政院同仁大家早安 大家好我們有請任市長請任市長委員長您好感謝您上禮拜會我們也就人事的問題有了一些討論在今天一開始我先就其實上禮拜有講過一些但是我針對這個比較憂心的現在公務人員超時過勞的問題"},{"start":2994.318,"end":3006.784,"text":"那我們可以發現呢這其實很大的一個問題是在制度設計之下那我呼應一下剛才那個黃委員其實也談到好幾個法案其實它一個整體的制度結構會影響到很多所以今天本席要討論的幾項都跟這個有點關係"},{"start":3010.026,"end":3037.543,"text":"好 那我在談剛才我們發現公務人員在制度的設計之下會被推向一個勞動跟報酬不太相當的處境甚至已經有點剝削的情形那過往社會對於公務體系常常都有這種穩定準時上下班的一個印象但是我覺得現在已經這種印象已經跟以前很不一樣了那就本席在行政單位的經驗那如果以勞工的方便勞工的一個概念來講事實上我們都不太合格"},{"start":3038.143,"end":3051.61,"text":"好所以呢現在情況不同所以很多過勞的案件甚至也有死亡的悲劇那這不是一個個案而是我們可能要了解到它是一個制度性的壓榨機制正在悄然的蔓延"},{"start":3053.233,"end":3074.367,"text":"人事總署有訂定一個加班費的管制要點表面上每天加班4個小時上限60小時已經過高但是很令人震驚的是有許多的例外條款形同開啟了一個無限制的加班大門就本席了解有的時候為了辦理專案加班上限會提升到6個小時每個月80小時"},{"start":3076.508,"end":3106.088,"text":"那再進一步如果還要再符合急迫且人力難以調度的條件甚至可以連續三天每天加班至14小時那麼再加上行政院核准以後每三個月可達240小時也超過勞基法所設的每三個月不得超過138小時的這個紅線那請問這樣的制度安排是否仍然符合公務人員保障法的精神"},{"start":3107.769,"end":3133.465,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會說明啦事實上我們有統計過中央跟地方所有公務人員在最近這三年的平均加班時數大概6點6到9點2個小時平均來講那剛才委員提到的那是屬於極端值我舉一個例子像上一年的極端值可能就會像以前我們在文化單位的那種極端值很不平均嘛對吧你們現在是平均值嘛對不對事實上它會有所謂的"},{"start":3135.236,"end":3162.492,"text":"High ceiling跟那個Low ceiling那個尖峰跟離峰的問題那我剛才就是針對那個委員所提到的你那個極限值三個月加起來240小時這一種譬如像上一年的那一種山東额颱風你在高雄地區的很多的同仁事實上他為了要很快速的去處理這一些上後處理這種情況是可能發生不過這裡我有跟委員報告"},{"start":3163.132,"end":3189.756,"text":"我們每一個月對 謝謝上次您來拜會的時候我們其實有就這個部分有做一些交流本席這邊要提醒的就是那現在母法僅有規定加班因給予補償但是沒有授權人事主管單位以行政命令的形式將工時擴張超過國際合理的一個勞動標準更遑論制度上還可以容許加班費上限僅有20小時但是這個是最重要的"},{"start":3190.336,"end":3210.983,"text":"其餘以獎勵及考積來報酬這樣子的做法其實是在制度裡面將剝削的一個狀況合理化那這樣子安排會有點挑戰人口販運防治法所禁止的報酬顯不當且非自願性工作那這個可能會成為一個灰色地帶是不是"},{"start":3212.063,"end":3233.75,"text":"人事長你應該做一些研議齁那我們都知道去年無姓員工在100個小時的這個過勞之後呢那也犧牲了一個性命那法院也認為國家應該要負責任那這樣子的檢討我們是不是可以讓更多無姓職員的事情不要在各機關再重演所以這是麻煩"},{"start":3234.91,"end":3260.458,"text":"你們可以好好的演繹當工作時間毫無節制加班常態化也不給予合理的報酬公務體系裡面其實這個工作已經不是一個體面的工作有的時候會被忽視強迫的勞動場域所以這個悲劇發生之後我相信剛才黃委員這邊所講的應該做一個整體制度的討論我這裡跟委員報告一下"},{"start":3261.178,"end":3267.562,"text":"我們就不要就個案了啦 這兩三年我們是從4.7.8.5通過之後我們每一個月都會針對少數機關少數同仁他加班時數非常不正常而且我們有花文請他說明為什麼要加班這麼久那本席這邊有提醒就是說不要忘記這個獎勵及考積來取代的這個部分是"},{"start":3288.056,"end":3307.225,"text":"我覺得你們應該好好再處理的我同意委員的看法這個是一個重點那最後本席這邊再補充一下因為我要繼續下去下面一個議題整個制度價值的重新校準是不是可以從本席剛才所講的這個內容含義上你們去做一個處理好嗎"},{"start":3308.499,"end":3334.728,"text":"事實上我覺得現在加班很重要的問題是來自於假如可以從業務流程簡化有些事情更不要這樣做因為我們管制性的東西太多假如管制性的東西我們如果要討論業務流程的簡化其實我們還要花時間再去處理業務流程怎麼簡化其實我們要花時間學所以本席講的就是說剛才那種替代性的變成獎勵報酬來替代這個部分請你們了解跟處理好嗎我跟委員報告啦"},{"start":3337.689,"end":3352.382,"text":"這一個我們也有在控制因為我覺得你有加班一定要加班會給你那個獎勵的事實上是屬於你有上限嘛 你有一些限制結果你就變相的用這款紅色它事實上是屬於極端子的部分"},{"start":3353.263,"end":3355.444,"text":"我們現在會統計如果用計劃加強我們也會行穩給那個機關為什麼我們私下來討論如果針對這點你有問題我們私下來討論好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":3373.428,"end":3401.709,"text":"那另外公務人員的這個出手潮來工時過高那過勞的問題我相信這個已經有很多報導了好那這20年來中央機關將去任務化地方化法人化及委外化的一個改造目標那許多人力都已經轉進了民營化的全國營企業或者是辦官方色彩非常高的研究機構公務人員的這個人數雖然感覺維持在法定範圍內但是非公務人員的"},{"start":3403.11,"end":3416.036,"text":"對不起非公務員的政府職員人數卻繼續上升這背後的現象是人力短缺那你們的調查也顯示2023年行政院所屬機關的缺額是29.5%"},{"start":3418.777,"end":3435.471,"text":"那也就是100人缺了29.5人深入的分析是未運用缺額率也就是不計算在正在申請調動等待國考分發的這個缺額數那中央是這樣地方尤其是那縣市政府呢是缺人"},{"start":3435.851,"end":3456.626,"text":"但是六都是大家流動率過高的一個缺額這已經不是新聞了那麼2022年的數據看來公務人員離職數是2496人六都1558人那離職的總數佔了62.4%那麼除了部分人員被調往中央以外其他很重要的一個問題還是工作量過大"},{"start":3457.046,"end":3472.82,"text":"跟剛才我們講的問題也有點接近所以相較於一般縣市六都的負擔也很大所以人力的短缺也導致工作職場的惡化所有的問題都連帶在一起所以我們這樣子的問題人員配置是否需要做一些調整"},{"start":3474.42,"end":3491.374,"text":"我覺得委員講到一個重點就是會有所謂類似惡性循環的現象因為人進補的速度不夠快工作量沒有做減所以剛才委員的簡報裡面有提到棄任務法棄任務法事實上很重要"},{"start":3492.523,"end":3514.577,"text":"一個氣氛固化 我們事實上在推兩個字啦 兩個減啦一個是減掉的減 另外一個是減化的減當這兩個字有辦法落實的話大家的工作的loading就不會那麼重了謝謝 林市長 我知道就你們行政上或者是機制上你們都希望減可是這個減背後 你會有一些很多的加的東西的代價好 這個請你們內部 就每一個單位"},{"start":3517.719,"end":3532.648,"text":"的工作職司的差異性做一個處理跟討論而不是只是說我怎麼整天你們來做我們就真的減對你們來說是減但是對其他單位可能增加一些不是他們專業可以處理的東西請檢討一下好不好跟一些專業的單位來做一個討論接下來我要為錦霄夜間家層來請命"},{"start":3539.352,"end":3557.493,"text":"那個為基層來做一個處理行政院近期核定6月1號起那警消移民跟這個空中勤務等機關在深夜12點到6點的時候駐外勤務者會知己每小時100元的深夜"},{"start":3558.795,"end":3572.17,"text":"為勞性勤務津貼聽起來好像得贈好像有6.9萬人要受益但是這第一線人的辛勞其實我感覺到還反這個感覺到蠻心傷的基層的反應可以看到這個"},{"start":3573.751,"end":3589.385,"text":"補貼其實也蠻沒有實質的意義那也顯示出制度上我們還是需要檢討那這個設計的制度呢其實在輪班的公務員形態及勤務的這個風險是不是有將圍牢這兩個字的這個定義好好做一個處理"},{"start":3590.206,"end":3603.553,"text":"它是單純的形式條件而不是勞動價值的合理衡量許多基層來反映一百塊比超商大業班的時薪還低你們要不要告訴我一下超商大業班的時薪大概多少你們有了解嗎"},{"start":3605.821,"end":3627.377,"text":"大夜班應該大概兩百幾塊吧你如果知道是兩百幾塊,一百塊比較多嘛警消這一類的工作還有一些危牢耶但是我的委員報告,他本身就有薪水喔,那是extra額外再給他的喔那是沒工喔,他那一點鐘兩百幾塊,他就是跟我們捏那兩百幾塊喔你跟我上次的報告說,你是怎麼算的"},{"start":3631.16,"end":3651.212,"text":"這重點就是說,在夜間,那些超商的時薪,你如果要這樣說,我們就來好好算出來,你說因為有薪水,要加班,危險跟加班費,你們覺得只要一百塊就夠了,低於超商,那你如果是這樣的概念,我們就來好好計算。"},{"start":3652.193,"end":3656.494,"text":"其實我幫你補充一下,剛才說的一點鐘加一班,那不是加班,那是正常班正常班我去輪到晚上那段時間,晚上那段時間晚上沒有危險性嗎?沒有危險性,我告訴你,那天起有危險性,我們會整理資料送給委員"},{"start":3672.738,"end":3700.631,"text":"這就很細的所以本席這邊就跟你說是不是就這一些細節那你們可以去了解一下這些實際的狀況那有沒有相對不公平跟不公義的制度那最後我提醒像這個補貼性對不起你這樣子的這個形式化有點形式化的東西讓機車人會陷入一種補貼性操作的邏輯明明是深夜來值班但是呢如果沒有離開那個地方譬如說我們在櫃台不要說櫃台啦警務所在值班"},{"start":3701.591,"end":3718.789,"text":"蓋起來搬到戶外才叫做危老沒有搬到戶外就不是危老這些定義是不是可以討論一下那補償性風險的制度會變成行政操作的一個漏洞那對津貼過低的這個問題其實沒有真正的解決那請你們回去好好的討論跟"},{"start":3719.91,"end":3737.147,"text":"我們也會提供一些資料給委員我們就像那天在細節上做一個討論那彼此有一些共識最重要的就是這些專業單位最後我提醒一點剛才黃國昌委員講的公職人員調薪法制化本席這邊也是今天其實本來要提醒我現在鄭重的提醒"},{"start":3737.748,"end":3761.329,"text":"不要讓我們覺得家心都要看氣氛等訊息這次其實是某一些權益我們要看整個社會制度在社會的一個報酬率來講還有社會的一個整理你們必須要好好處理這個問題法治化的這個議題是非常重要在合理的指標下我們應該年年有一些調整那不要"},{"start":3761.849,"end":3776.201,"text":"看氣氛 等消息 感覺有點太多的行政決策干預好不好 麻煩做一個處理好 謝謝 感謝主席謝謝林倩琪林委員 你這國台語雙聲帶不錯 好來接下來我們請吳思堯委員資訊我還說不對 你應該是國台語 你又叫英文 我聽過你三次"},{"start":3789.021,"end":3793.165,"text":"這樣我也來講西班牙文台灣是一個獨立偉大的國家好 謝謝主席 又請總長來 請董事長委員長"},{"start":3805.863,"end":3825.511,"text":"大家早安辛苦了我就以剛剛我說的西班牙文台灣是一個獨立的國家所以軍公教服務國家他負有忠誠義務下一頁那請問一下那個任市長您認為軍公教的忠誠義務是什麼"},{"start":3830.033,"end":3844.118,"text":"我這裡跟委員報告一下,我們在西安訓練的,對家庭是大人要友好,對國家要尊重,那是我們西安訓練到盡的,這是核心價值,但是不知道兩岸關係緊張"},{"start":3848.513,"end":3858.144,"text":"就是會發現一些比較遺憾的事件所以我們政府必須要再重申對這個國家的一個忠誠本來這個不是議題的議題啦現在就變成議題就代表他不是議題他應當是前提嘛"},{"start":3865.112,"end":3880.809,"text":"吳思瑤身為中華民國的國會議員、立法委員我必須對國家忠誠我必須克尊憲法對憲法忠誠我必須福音民意對人民忠誠當然我也要對我們的法治忠誠"},{"start":3881.67,"end":3894.315,"text":"所以當我們在參選的時候都填了很多的竊解書拒解書我沒有具雙重國籍的身份我也沒有任何犯罪的前科等等瑞雄大哥在這裡我們這個參選民選的每一次去審查我們登記要"},{"start":3902.238,"end":3927.306,"text":"參選厚厚一疊的文件一份一份一字一字讀一頁一頁的簽我拒絕就代表我負責我對於國家有效忠的義務所以剛剛您已經點到了當台灣面對中國這所謂的境外敵對勢力對台灣的步步進逼滲透從軍公教下手已經是"},{"start":3928.627,"end":3945.247,"text":"這個境外敵對勢力最容易侵入也是被高度鎖定的一個族群跟對象所以軍公教本來就是前提它不是新生議題喔對於國家的忠誠義務本來就存在我們國籍法20條怎麼規定的"},{"start":3947.645,"end":3965.454,"text":"身為中華民國的公務員不得具有雙重國籍雖然在2022年我們有放寬修法但是不是全面開放只是針對特定國家譬如說阿根廷他本身你想有該國國籍是不得放棄的這種極特殊的狀況可以排除否則基本上中華民國的公務人員都不應具有雙重國籍這是國際法的規定嘛"},{"start":3975.737,"end":3990.603,"text":"所以說現在因為中國的滲透現在陸委會發聲你們程序部或是人事總處已經進行了公務員的拒絕畏懼中國身份希望透過誠實的申報"},{"start":3992.364,"end":4011.876,"text":"然後協助來放棄如果有人有中國身份然後現在是只揭露並不進行裁罰目前是這個三階段對不對就是為了防範國安的漏洞那你們的執行規劃現在進行到什麼樣的狀態二月才上路"},{"start":4014.125,"end":4026.853,"text":"我跟委員報告一下,目前各個機關還是在持續填血中,未來我們會持續在精進等於,那表只能用電子化的方式在表這麼簡單,也這麼明顯"},{"start":4029.916,"end":4045.617,"text":"歸行娘本人拒絕確實無台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之一所定的情勢並未在中國大陸設有戶籍領用中國大陸護照身份證定居證或居住證"},{"start":4046.818,"end":4057.78,"text":"如有不實願負法律責任拒絕人然後基本的職務機關的資訊簡單一點而已你們現在就是鼓勵各個機關誠實來申報跟登載我也相信99.9999%的公務員絕對願意對國家忠誠我們的國家是誰是中華民國是台灣"},{"start":4077.706,"end":4085.455,"text":"台灣是一個國家所以現有的法規公務人員依法守法更是我們的天職本份現在除了我剛剛講國際法20條兩岸人民關係條例國防法規範軍人"},{"start":4093.764,"end":4121.617,"text":"公務人員任用法第4條第28條都是規範我們的公務同仁以及教育人員任用條例規範的是教育人員法制都有軍公教依法守法這也是天經地義下頁但是很遺憾有人帶頭不拒絕還要去擴散不拒絕是他的權利"},{"start":4122.637,"end":4145.709,"text":"的這種作為人事總署應當以主管機關來表達你們清楚的立場吧如果對於不簽拒絕你們當然目前沒有裁罰啦沒有懲處但是你們如何去鼓勵正向鼓勵或者是你可以有信心八分之九十九點九九九九九大家都願意拒絕"},{"start":4148.548,"end":4153.23,"text":"其實這個問題就像委員說的那樣,大部分、百分之九、九點、九、九、九,那些都沒問題啦極少數的這些人,我們還是會請同仁,問了解他有什麼困難,我們會到三天因為可能他會有其他的一些想法,我覺得...溝通嘛,正向溝通嘛"},{"start":4171.155,"end":4179.098,"text":"那人事總署目前自己因為你要以身作則啊我們人事總署目前的拒絕的狀況會有同仁拒簽嗎"},{"start":4180.219,"end":4184.062,"text":"沒有 我都簽好了都簽好了 完全 百分之百真好 叫你第一名 就用這個進行那是基本的好 這是基本的這樣我們就也把這樣子的正向的誠實登載的義務我們真的要落實在各個部會所有的軍公教對國家忠誠是必然的義務包括立法委員也是下一頁"},{"start":4206.854,"end":4212.656,"text":"總預算對於人事總署其實最嚴重你們是重災戶 下一頁這裡有三個預算刪減的設有違憲之處我就不贅述了 下一頁我們來看看人事總署新年度的業務費刪減了3,261萬佔21.69%對不對 這數字正不正確正確"},{"start":4236.196,"end":4243.922,"text":"刪減了兩成二另外還凍結了三千五百三十一萬凍結了三成的業務費看起來都三千多萬 三千多萬沒多啦但是人事總署的業務費全部也不過一億五千零三十三萬換言之凍結了兩成"},{"start":4259.315,"end":4264.28,"text":"對不起 刪減了兩成二 再凍結了三成加起來你們山東合併是51.69%就是52%的業務 賣丁賣黨這樣有嚴重嗎"},{"start":4274.206,"end":4277.349,"text":"我們目前有為了因應這個三節運算我們委外的駕駛還有清潔都有減人所以駕駛跟清潔"},{"start":4291.321,"end":4300.424,"text":"所以也犧牲了一些這些約聘人員的就業機會那我其實當然我們都對於軍公教童人的福利福祉很多機關沒有衛生紙很多機關現在限電連燈光都要調暗我認為對於軍公教童人的服務的環境因為扼山扼洞預算我真的非常的不忍"},{"start":4319.529,"end":4332.269,"text":"對於人事總署我甚至看到因為你們山洞合併打五成二我發現人事總署聯合辦公大樓北洞的辦公室是不是有個辦公室"},{"start":4333.933,"end":4351.62,"text":"我們那裡都有五個機關 英雄剛才是外交部領務局 因為大家說他搬的北棟辦公室 人事總署在今年九月恐怕就要關門 沒有辦法維持正常的運作會影響到民眾的辦公 這是你們回給我的資料還有呢"},{"start":4353.661,"end":4358.424,"text":"影響人事總署辦理全國人事資訊系統的正常運作恐怕因為預算惡動惡侃導致資安的破口因為人事資料系統這都是大家珍貴的服務履歷大家的個資我也發現我長期要求的我倡議催生的心理健康價正在延逸上路包括對於所有的員工的這些支持方案讓他減壓"},{"start":4384.622,"end":4409.759,"text":"讓他減少他的壓力所以所謂的員工協助方案你們的辦理活動的場次分區訪視都因此要取消或減少這是對於員工的福利受到傷害當然還包括吳斯堯一直要求文康活動不是只有吃吃喝喝我們更要透過文康活動搭配國家政策大家運動 動起來"},{"start":4412.04,"end":4429.1,"text":"搭配國家政策強化參與藝文活動但是這些都因為業務費被併被刪高達五成二而都必須減降或是中止我認為最嚴重的人事總署是重災戶"},{"start":4431.365,"end":4453.274,"text":"我剛剛說這幾件是不是你們目前很頭痛的業務受到影響的?那間房子很久了啦,大家也是盡量在騎在內地騎在內地,所以本來我們有一些文康會到比較遠的地方要租車盡量叫他們去歷史博物館那裡,一天差不多有25個給他們門票這樣而已"},{"start":4455.455,"end":4474.52,"text":"我是這裡勾勒啦去北美館、歷史博物館、台灣博物館都很好但是遠程的對於一些南部的中部原本規劃長期跟我們有合作的藝文長館或是一些民生古蹟或是文化資產就沒有辦法讓我們的公務同仁去透過我們的文康活動"},{"start":4475.2,"end":4497.175,"text":"或者是心理健康支持的協助方案也都沒有去減 沒有辦法減壓所以我順著 我知道人事總署所有的委員問都會問怎麼減壓 怎麼調薪公務人員調薪的法制化 這個會期可能會省到但是很珠西 總預算刪得這麼亂 這麼嚴重公務人員今年加薪3% 還沒有辦法領到人事長 加薪3% 入帳戶了沒"},{"start":4504.488,"end":4518.945,"text":"阿伯嘛希望這個總預算當然現在立法院審閉然後附議失敗了即將就進入這個公告上路但是已經讓我們軍公教同仁等了很久的3%加薪"},{"start":4520.327,"end":4538.155,"text":"已經延遲了現在3月快4月了所以這就是這個國家面對總預算造成的衝擊跟災難大家就辛苦這是辛苦的一年大家努力但是服務國家的熱忱不減我們富有的國家忠誠義務也不會改變大家加油 謝謝"},{"start":4539.889,"end":4543.632,"text":"首先謝謝主席,我第一次到488自委會有喝到咖啡"},{"start":4565.36,"end":4566.681,"text":"謝謝主席請我們的人事總長請人事長人事長"},{"start":4579.13,"end":4589.255,"text":"人事長早安剛才吼吳世耀委員有特別講到就說現在呢有做這個所謂的忠誠查核那人事長也說應該要做那請問一下我們現在在公務人員相關的法規裡面哪一條有規定公務人員必須去來填登錄這個有關於現在包含陸委會行政院要求的不能夠有大陸這個"},{"start":4607.714,"end":4613.216,"text":"居住證還什麼這個證那個證的這個登記現在哪一條有相關規定我跟委員報告 經我們恰拉陸委會這是屬於內部管理事項好 所以是內部管理事項我們公務人員這個本來就有所謂的中程相關的規定那裡面包含就是公務人員也要恪守誓言中心"},{"start":4635.287,"end":4638.99,"text":"努力依法律命令所定執行其職務 依法律命令所定所以我要講的是 其實我必須說中華民國是一個法治的國家我們對公務人員要求的忠誠的要求 這是正確的但是我覺得我們還是要有這個法律的精神"},{"start":4660.507,"end":4665.429,"text":"如果法律沒有明定 這個公務人員本來我們就有很多相關的法律他不能夠違法 違法就要去判 違法就要處罰但是呢 以所謂的內部的這個什麼準則啦 或者陸委會的要求我覺得在這個部分 我覺得是有商榷的餘地"},{"start":4683.018,"end":4692.824,"text":"那也就是說如果公務人員他願意去做登錄這是他的自由嘛那如果他不願意登錄說實在你願意登錄的他就不會叛國嗎他就不會當間諜嗎未必吧 對不對所以我覺得在這一部分我覺得不要這樣的一個對公務人員如此的肅殺"},{"start":4706.152,"end":4714.936,"text":"好 另外一個 也是剛才的問題到目前為止我們軍公教今年加薪還沒有領到嘛沒有領到真正的原因過去呢 在今年的年初因為當時的林楚韻委員說說這個軍公教加薪沒有入帳都是因為我們卡總預算但是我當時也提到了因為呢 歷年"},{"start":4734.153,"end":4758.477,"text":"軍公教加薪不是今年才開始 對不對歷年都有加薪 但是呢歷年在立法院的總預算他可能都沒有辦法在12月31號就把它全部的通過所以呢 過去好幾年的這個實施日期有的時候呢 是1月多1月中 有的時候會延遲到2月中當然今年 今年應該創紀錄了啦今年應該是最晚領到"},{"start":4762.639,"end":4789.484,"text":"但是人事總署當時說得非常好因為不要引起我們很多軍公教不必要的恐慌人事總署當時就說啊軍公教加薪要等待總預算通過後回溯發放對不對 這個應該沒有講錯好 那立法院的總預算已經通過了但是呢 因為行政院提出復議案"},{"start":4791.764,"end":4801.987,"text":"那麼立法院在復議案也處理完成了所以在上個星期3月13號立法院已經再次的送出復議案的結果我剛才要講的是總預算在2月19號就送出去了"},{"start":4813.951,"end":4830.689,"text":"但是呢 為什麼沒有辦法這個正式 就是為什麼到現在軍公教仍然拿不到它的調薪的部分呢是因為行政院遲遲沒有送行政那個總統府來公告行政院反而送回給立法院來做復印"},{"start":4831.69,"end":4856.07,"text":"好 來來回回 你看 又快一個月了那但是呢 我們趕快加緊啊 在法定的期限之內在3月13號把附議案送出 送出到那個 應該現在是總統府要公告所以 基本上 要等總統府公告之後這個軍公教才可以拿到他的條心的部分"},{"start":4857.597,"end":4879.196,"text":"有沒有問題 我剛講的都沒有問題吧不是啦 本來就要總統府公告以後我們才能夠繼續往下算每一個人要補多少這是法定的過程嘛 法定的程序啦所以我要講的是 軍公教今年出現歷年來最晚一次才拿到條薪 它當然是回溯"},{"start":4880.532,"end":4889.109,"text":"是因為總預算變成一個政治性的操作過去總預算從來沒有拿來付益過"},{"start":4890.934,"end":4902.924,"text":"從未拿來附議過那你拿來附議 我們立法院也必須依法去做處理那所以現在也送出了我現在算一下時間 我剛才去了解最晚最晚 總統府應該在這個星期六應該在這個星期六要公告如果不公告的話呢"},{"start":4914.983,"end":4932.561,"text":"就違反法定程序所以在這邊人事長是不是很確定的說只要總統府公告軍公教立刻可以拿到這個就從1我們可以補發回溯發放從1月份開始發放讓軍公教安心啊"},{"start":4937.451,"end":4950.456,"text":"我這裡要跟委員報告一下整個預算案的這一次的預算案事實上對很多機關有造成一些自愛難行的地方你們已經講了半天還有造謠的咧我現在在問你軍公教因為我知道廣大的軍公教很關心這個事情啊在流程上是不是總統府公告之後"},{"start":4960.459,"end":4967.004,"text":"總統府公告之後 我們會發函給各個機關然後各個機關會去試算要補發多少錢就要開始補發了嘛對不對 這都法定程序啊所以我知道 因為星期六就是假日啊我不曉得總統府會不會在明天公告啦"},{"start":4978.593,"end":4993.463,"text":"那所以我要讓所有軍公教安心啊因為呢在立法院裡面的大家的政治攻防事實上這次總預算已經變成了一個不是攻防是政治的鬥爭我剛剛講裡面還有很多的謠言太多的這個部會首長都謠言昨天洪森漢這個勞動部長自己都說我口誤他說什麼育兒今天根本都是錯誤的所以我們要讓所有的軍公教來安心"},{"start":5008.673,"end":5012.676,"text":"好 那任市長剩下一點時間 請問一下因為現在立法院 我們還有就是有關於國定假日的修法那當然這個 有問內政部長啦 因為這個是在內政委員會在審查中"},{"start":5025.865,"end":5040.727,"text":"那我們都知道 現在台灣的勞工 價比別人少 薪水比別人低我們可以看到 我們鄰近的各個國家日本 韓國 香港 中國 台灣 國定假日 台灣最少"},{"start":5041.628,"end":5045.852,"text":"最少只有12天最多的是香港17天萊茲辛斯的排序我們是第44位 只高於中國大陸也比韓國 日本 香港都低"},{"start":5060.544,"end":5078.354,"text":"可是人家日本 韓國 香港 他們的國定假日喔 都比我們多所以現在呢 我們說還假於民 好 下一頁而且還假於民呢 也得到很多很多的民眾的支持可以看到將近六成民眾支持所以 任市長"},{"start":5079.816,"end":5098.676,"text":"請問您知不支持我們有更多的在這次檢討裡面有提出更多的國定假日不要讓台灣變成嫁比其他國家少這麼多的一個勞工血汗勞工"},{"start":5099.605,"end":5121.036,"text":"您支持嗎?我跟委員報告一下,事實上目前國定假日我們是11天,跟新加坡一樣那在立法院在2000年,也就是89年6月30號有做成一個公務人員的每年休假的天數大概115到116,那116是因為論年的問題"},{"start":5122.657,"end":5138.056,"text":"所以基本上115的這一個每一年的休假的天數這個在全世界來講相當合理啦啊事實上哪一天我來說其實很重要的就是放假的部分大家都希望多放幾天啦"},{"start":5140.017,"end":5155.006,"text":"然後要考慮到各個營業人因為台灣有很多的中小企業的業主他本身的經營的負擔會不會增加很多的面向要同時考量當大家的那一種共識度高的時候我更具體一點問人事長因為這一次修訂裡面當然有很多的假期比如說有教師節"},{"start":5161.65,"end":5180.543,"text":"那個五一那個勞動節啊還有習近平紀念日還有823很多好但是我請問一下因為很多人覺得不要一國兩制所以五一勞動節能夠變成全國性的法定國定假日您同意嗎"},{"start":5182.333,"end":5195.751,"text":"呃 報告委員我不反對這個議題啦嗯 為什麼給我一點時間為什麼不反對就是我今天很精確的問你是五一勞動節變成大家全民放假的國定假日因為每次一個家庭啊"},{"start":5196.812,"end":5224.89,"text":"那個什麼媽媽是老師 爸爸是那個什麼勞工然後有公務員 哇一個家庭亂七八糟的架這樣子我跟委員報告 我沒反對的原因就是因為節日實施方法在內政部在訂嘛這個禮拜一還有下個禮拜三內政委員會都會開會討論事實上基本上我們會尊重整個內政部的一個放假日的一個規劃"},{"start":5226.672,"end":5236.318,"text":"所以五一勞動節成為法定的假日 國定假日 您同意教師節也變成全國性的國定法定假日 您同意嗎"},{"start":5248.444,"end":5264.35,"text":"委員你現在提到的就是各個族群的問題必須要去綜合考量本來是勞工現在又有教師有九月三號金人節還有各個不同族群的九三金人節沒有放我現在跟你講確實在放假的"},{"start":5265.741,"end":5289.509,"text":"確實在放假的 酒吧教師姐也希望他也放假所以這個問題為什麼大家要一起討論有一個共識再來推因為大家的看法都不太一樣沒關係 我至少知道你這個勞動節變成全體放假你不反對 非常好我予以高度肯定 好不好謝謝王威委員這個議題 要他特別聽到盡"},{"start":5294.539,"end":5302.942,"text":"這個每一年都討論這個議題啦好 謝謝 謝謝王委員接下來我們請省發會委員質詢好 主席我們請任市長有請任市長"},{"start":5323.905,"end":5332.85,"text":"委員長市長早我想這個剛才包括吳思堯委員包括我們黃峰委員都有在關心那在這個"},{"start":5334.761,"end":5360.93,"text":"今年的2月28日陸委會的新聞稿要求行文我們的主管機關人事總署要求依法宣傳並清查公職人員不得具有中國大陸身分證件這個部分剛才大概都有提到目前我們"},{"start":5362.827,"end":5368.02,"text":"照陸委會的新聞稿看起來,有關這件事情的主管機關應該就是我們人事總署"},{"start":5374.046,"end":5392.152,"text":"各主管機關都要走,因為華麗的主管機關是陸委會,他是請我們跟權序部發文給所有的有關公務人員不得具有中國大陸身份與證件這個部分的主管機關他提出人事總署、權序部、法務部"},{"start":5392.992,"end":5416.424,"text":"他是請我們轉發給各個行政院所以事實上是透過你們這邊轉發的嗎?對,我們有轉發那剛剛大概都有提到這個是目前採取的方式是以拒絕的方式嘛,對不對?現在就請這個公務員沒有槍沒有罰則就用鼓勵的方式鼓勵,但是是以拒絕的方式來進行那這個事實上"},{"start":5421.947,"end":5432.521,"text":"這個是一個部分但是我們按照公務人員任用法的第四條第四條的第二項有關於這個"},{"start":5435.922,"end":5462.7,"text":"前項人員就是公務人員各機關任用公務人員的品德忠誠還有各機關任用辦理查核這個必要時得洽請有關機關協助辦理其涉及國家安全或重大利益者得辦理特殊查核有關這個特殊查核他另外另訂這個辦法就是涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員的特殊查核辦法這個主管單位是我們人事總署對不對"},{"start":5465.044,"end":5481.294,"text":"我們會選考試院但是這個法令的主管機關就是我們人事總署對不對是我們總署沒有錯這個法令的主管機關當然不是你們獨立完成的你們必須要跟...這你們都要配合 我知道了但是主管機關有關社區國家安全跟重大"},{"start":5489.059,"end":5503.626,"text":"利益的公務員的特殊查核是由我們人事總署主管剛才所講的拒絕的方式跟我現在講的有關國家安全重大利益的特殊查核辦法"},{"start":5506.625,"end":5531.312,"text":"有什麼不一樣大概從90幾年我們現在整個特殊查核大概改過17次了因為每一年我們在review看有沒有哪些對象要新增加剛才委員所提的像外交國防跟國家安全有關的相關的機關因為會有所謂的新增加的這些機關進來那每一年我們都會跟考試院同時在檢討"},{"start":5532.433,"end":5532.815,"text":"簡單講,剛才這個拒絕的這些部分,這個是普查"},{"start":5536.331,"end":5565.731,"text":"但是這個特殊查核這個是這個是特殊查核對不對 這針對特定人特殊查核基本上機關收到 戶收到 跟他的秘書有限定對象 不計啦 不計你這個辦法裡面有一個附表附表裡面有什麼人 哪一些人去接受這個特殊查核你列了一清二楚一一就不會遭到什麼 不說沒有任何模糊空間你只要列在附表裡面 它不是普查 它就不普查你就是 所以不公嘛不公 那兩個完全不公所以他們的法令的依據也不一樣嘛"},{"start":5567.212,"end":5594.435,"text":"剛才王偉有提到說這個進行這樣子的現在目前要求公職人員不得具有中國大陸身份證件這個部分他的法源依據也不一樣啦都是公務員任用法但是一個是剛剛我想這個特殊查核有關國家安全重大利益的這是根據公務員任用法的第四條但是有關於不得具有中國大陸身份的這個是依照"},{"start":5596.035,"end":5596.924,"text":"公務人員用法的第26條"},{"start":5599.005,"end":5626.214,"text":"的第一項他說有下列情勢之一者不得為公務人員其中的第一款就是未具有未具或喪失中華民國國籍這一條還有這個第二款的這個具中華民國國籍兼具外國國籍但本法另有規定以及你剛剛所講的兩岸人民關係條例這個是不同的法源對不對所以他事實上是有法源依據他不是沒有法源依據對不對進行這樣子的清查是不是"},{"start":5627.074,"end":5634.666,"text":"清查這公務人員到底有沒有具有外國國籍是不是具有其他國家的身份證件這個是有法源依據的對不對"},{"start":5636.823,"end":5662.284,"text":"當我們進到公務員服務的時候都是規定都很明確啦就不能有雙重國籍的相關規定這個就是法律依據我剛剛唸的嘛我不用再唸一次嘛公務員任用法跟兩岸人民關係條裡面都有明確的規範嘛所以它是有法律依據它不是沒有法律依據的這個要在這邊讓社會跟所有公務員了解這是有法律依據的這不是說什麼不符合法律保留原則這個是有法律依據的對不對"},{"start":5663.305,"end":5674.591,"text":"那這個我現在就這個剛剛我們談到這個涉及國際安全跟重大利益的這個公務人員的特殊查核齁針對這個剛才你也有提到齁提到說這個這個特殊查核改了多少次17改啦其實改的是副表對不對這副表裡面的我這邊齁有統計我們這個這個歷年來齁有修正這個副表的部分齁這個這個刪除齁從"},{"start":5691.547,"end":5715.602,"text":"我看有從到現在目前應該要這個各機關辦理特殊查核植物一覽表這一覽表裡面從這個民國96年到去年113年12月3號做最後一次的修訂那這個植物的這個必須要接受這個特殊查核植物的總數從"},{"start":5717.964,"end":5737.444,"text":"從1099人到最後一次修正到1328人對不對1328個現在目前的公務人員裡面就1328個人必須接受這個這個特殊特殊查核對特殊查核那裡面有增有減啊有的增到新增100人但是刪除51個人有的有每一次修改都有新增都有刪除"},{"start":5738.373,"end":5761.224,"text":"那這個我就是想了解 請問這個人事長這樣子的這個調整他每一次修改調整的發動機關是誰是我們人事總署認為需要調整嗎還是哪一個機關謝謝委員給我這個機會這個是每一個機關他自己提出來自己提出來他有進場跟退場"},{"start":5761.664,"end":5776.717,"text":"那什麼時候我們什麼時候每一個機關可能我今天覺得這樣子那下一個機關是後天覺得這樣子再下一個機關是下個月覺得這樣子我們不可能每天調整啊我們都有一定的一個調整機制到底我們怎麼決定什麼時候要做一次的調整"},{"start":5777.458,"end":5794.948,"text":"一般來說 有配合組織調整 那就是調整進場退場機制是密度最高的只要有組織調整 組織調整組織調整之後 一定要再做review 看看哪些職位最後一次113年12月3號是什麼原因調整"},{"start":5804.282,"end":5805.624,"text":"那個是關鍵基礎設施關鍵基礎設施的調整那這個我其實"},{"start":5814.656,"end":5835.201,"text":"比起剛剛所講的拒絕的部分更關心這個國家安全跟特殊重大利益的這個特殊查核這個部分希望說我們這個人事行政總署能夠確實的督促各機關確實辦理那也希望說能夠你們要確實掌握這樣子的查核內容好不好那接下來"},{"start":5836.482,"end":5844.388,"text":"接下來的時間我從去年的9月30日跟11月10日都有兩度質詢都有提到有關於目前我們所強調的AI內閣有關於我們要讓台灣成為AI智慧島我們公務人員到相關的這些授訊的問題那時候都有跟人事長請教"},{"start":5862.742,"end":5879.293,"text":"那時候去年9月30我就提出三點要求第一點就是我們AI計畫的成效要定期盤點另外第二個就是說我們AI要列為公務人員的學習的必修課程第三就是AI要納入115年原額評鑑這三個要求裡面"},{"start":5884.497,"end":5901.355,"text":"有關這個我在這邊要先肯定我們我們這個人事總署基本上這三個要求基本上都有開始著手在做有的已經確實進行了有關這個AI計畫成效的定期盤點我這個有看到你們在這個公務"},{"start":5902.196,"end":5919.419,"text":"人力發展學院的官網上面你們確實有公告有關AI智能訓練的成果每一季、按季有公開這是第一個給你們肯定第二個有關於AI列為公務學習必修現在是不是已經列為必修了"},{"start":5920.932,"end":5932.542,"text":"去年11月已經有把它加入必修了這個部分我也很高興你們能夠接受本席的建議第三個有關於AI納入115年緣和評鑑的部分"},{"start":5937.907,"end":5962.925,"text":"我看這個你們這個115年實施的這個115年辦理所屬二級機關聯合評鑑計畫已經有納入這個AI的公務人力的部分這部分我也基本上可以肯定但是我想進一步瞭解因為我時間到了我再第一個瞭解有關於我們AI這個推動實務種子人員課程去年只辦一期總共36個科長參加對不對"},{"start":5967.208,"end":5973.47,"text":"啊有三個拿到...為什麼有三個拿不到?啊?為什麼有三個拿不到?啊表示這個課期不是說有機課就可以課就是真的課36個,課到36個啊大家很認真啊啊那時候你有說今年要辦六期嘛"},{"start":5984.973,"end":5993.117,"text":"五期都總共一百八十萬,從後五月開始辦你剛才說六期,現在就減一年了,變五期了人家是參與意願的問題嗎?經費啦喔經費喔,叫國民黨抬議啦那就經費比較不夠所以你本來要辦六期,現在變成五期嘛五期這個"},{"start":6010.424,"end":6011.587,"text":"現在你剛才說36個,有33個拿到這個"},{"start":6016.356,"end":6036.212,"text":"AI的認證啦 AI專業認證啦齁但是事實上我們現在國家並沒有這個AI專業認證的執照對不對 制度目前AI專業制度 這個是你們自己設計的沒有沒有 我們請他到AIA人工智慧學校去拿的人工智慧學校AI人工智慧學校去拿但是他並不是國家認證的一個專業證照嘛那我們自己有沒有打算要建立我們公務人員自己AI的認證體系"},{"start":6046.6,"end":6061.38,"text":"這部分我會跟樹化部那個黃部長再來討論看看跟國科會啦要跟國科會你們已經有跟國科會申請AI政府經費有跟他申請你們要求他們做這個發展計畫我找人比你清楚你們已經有拜託國科會"},{"start":6062.574,"end":6079.136,"text":"去做這個AI政府領航人員發展計畫裡面要規劃建立你們公務人員AI的認證體系那我這個部分我是希望說能夠你們國科會 以我了解國科會到現在還沒有"},{"start":6080.903,"end":6096.051,"text":"進行還沒開始進行啦齁那這部分我希望我們人事總署能夠再進一步再push國科會齁我們盡快的把一個公務機關裡面AI人才認證的這個機制齁趕快把它建立起來好不好好好謝謝謝謝人事長好謝謝委員好謝謝審發會委員接下來請羅志強委員質詢"},{"start":6109.758,"end":6132.85,"text":"主席有請人事長請人事長委員長人事長我今天要給你肯定喔你知道肯定什麼事嗎我告訴你喔因為我剛剛聽你跟王宏威在詢答的過程當中你說這個我們把五一齁這個恢復放假齁勞動節恢復放假你也不反對嘛對不對"},{"start":6134.435,"end":6157.379,"text":"不反對非常謝謝這是一個open discussion的一個場地人事長用這個開放的態度我希望我們民進黨的中央政府能夠效法你為什麼呢我想請教一下我們台灣有很多的驕傲嘛對不對我不知道人事長知道我們的公使也是在世界上算是非常驕傲的成績你知道吧"},{"start":6158.853,"end":6176.778,"text":"我覺得還好 按照我們的統計資料台灣高工時 世界都在看有些事情我們拚第一名那是叫做世界都開心 台灣人也開心但我有一個拚第一名 第二名叫國恥 是什麼"},{"start":6178.171,"end":6192.79,"text":"就是工時啊 沒錯吧如果我們工時今天拚到讓世界都看到的話我跟人事長講那真的就是我們今天政府要好好去思考我們蔡英文總統有一個名言你聽過吧勞工是什麼"},{"start":6197.287,"end":6210.836,"text":"對啦勞工是心理最軟的一塊不要變勞工變成肝臟最硬的一塊吧對不對所以今天我跟各位說我國的工時高居世界主要各國第五高"},{"start":6211.596,"end":6226.513,"text":"在亞洲我們也很驕傲我們只輸給新加坡所以再努力一點賣肝把自己打造成所謂的肝硬化國家的話我們就可以贏過新加坡你希望我們的工時高過新加坡嗎?"},{"start":6226.513,"end":6226.974,"text":"希望不希望?"},{"start":6226.974,"end":6227.014,"text":"人事長"},{"start":6228.907,"end":6241.118,"text":"我覺得提升國家整體競爭力的一個要素不見得只有靠增加工時啦當然啦 所以非常謝謝任市長你在這個體量上 我跟大家說跟任市長講啦"},{"start":6244.261,"end":6261.008,"text":"今天國民黨我們提出還價於民還價於 恢復國定價大概恢復幾天社會大眾可以共同討論可是今天如果說我們今天的工時排行是全世界"},{"start":6262.248,"end":6287.464,"text":"最後一名 亞洲最後一名就是我們工時是最低的啦那我跟你講 那今天我們提還價於民我就覺得一點正當性都沒有因為台灣的工時就是最低的嘛 那還要還價於民可是現在不是啊現在我們其實現代化的國家非常強調的勞工權益除了薪資問題以外就是什麼問題就是什麼問題 請問人事長"},{"start":6291.636,"end":6314.491,"text":"你說超時加班的問題對嘛 就是不要再乾硬化的問題嘛對不對 就是放假的問題嘛所以我跟任市長說我謝謝你今天的態度是對五一勞動節放假的不否定啦對不對 沒錯吧就是需要大家一起討論的啦那我請任市長這邊告訴大家"},{"start":6316.363,"end":6334.043,"text":"肯定一點好不好 五一勞動節勞工值不值得這個假值不值得五一勞動節勞工一定在放假我說我們今天公務員啦 我講的是公務員啦變國定假日可以嗎因為這個議題說真的齁 那再問你教師節嘛好不好可不可以"},{"start":6335.692,"end":6358.184,"text":"我覺得這些議題都可以提出來討論我回頭告訴你 當然我必須講 對哪一天放假我沒有什麼太大的意見堅持我覺得哪一天放假是讓人民共同來決定 對不對 沒錯吧可是呢 但是我們政府本身先要把政策立場開放出來 沒錯吧"},{"start":6359.921,"end":6384.173,"text":"現在目前我想請教一下我舉個例子 你看東京都嘛東京都政府他現在研議要開放職員週休三日從2025年4月1號起然後東京都政府會改變彈性工時制的運用讓職員每週可以多休一個平日那當然看起來台灣現在可能還很遙遠 這是研議啦"},{"start":6385.774,"end":6410.752,"text":"那我接下來想請教一下就是說我們剛剛講就是還價移民的這件事情我想請問人事行政總署有沒有針對這個題目已經開始進行內部討論了有沒有還價移民的主體應該是勞動部那些有經貸的客戶人事行政總署我覺得你們剛剛你的意見很好嘛那我想請問有沒有跟我們的勞動部一起來討論匯商這件事情"},{"start":6415.659,"end":6426.726,"text":"當然那個放假日的我們一定會找教育部還有勞動部大家一起來討論甚至金管會我們也一起來討論非常好嘛但是當然你要講說你是主管公務人員嘛對不對"},{"start":6427.796,"end":6448.21,"text":"公務人員我跟委員報告我們現在已經有還算不錯的一個彈性上下班當然我知道你要講我還是回到原始的問題當然我們的工時我也必須肯定經過歷任政府的努力工時是有在縮少減少對不對沒錯吧可是全世界也在減少"},{"start":6449.551,"end":6470.266,"text":"不是嗎所以我們才會維持到高工時變成是說世界亞洲第二名這才是我今天講的根本我不知道你今天人事長你認不認同我今天就跟你說如果台灣今天的工時是亞洲這個最低第二低第三低那我跟你講還價於民說真的我就覺得沒有底氣沒錯吧"},{"start":6472.27,"end":6487.735,"text":"如果我們工時就已經很低了可是現狀就不是嘛所以我跟任市長說齁我還是拜託你啦就是說我今天肯定你就說剛剛我看王洪輝講你馬上講你也不否定這個態度是正確的但是還不夠"},{"start":6489.275,"end":6515.453,"text":"想想勞工是我們民進黨我們的以前蔡英文總統說心中最軟的一塊那你就應該在這件事情態度上能夠讓往更前面走一步那我們人事總署如果態度積極一點你就可以跟勞動部再做更多的會商啊其實勞動部要比你更軟對勞工更軟才對啦 對不對他是業管主管單位嘛我也會去問勞動部啦但是我先問問人事長嘛"},{"start":6517.074,"end":6544.522,"text":"所以我要跟人事長說你這個所謂的開放的態度我覺得很好但是還不夠你應該以我們今天人事總長的身份人事長的身份來跟我們的政府多多督促希望能夠讓我們的勞工讓我們的工時這個世界第二高亞洲第二高這個汙名能夠在你跟勞動部的努力之下把它解除掉好不好 拜託"},{"start":6545.562,"end":6562.72,"text":"我跟委員報告 事實上我現在在思考的就是在既有的遊戲規則裡面增加 就鼓勵公務人員去休假就是來降低他的working hours您用了很多的方法 很多的努力公時就亞洲第二高 世界第五高啊"},{"start":6563.661,"end":6587.274,"text":"那這個是我們今天面臨最大的問題最後我也不為難你啦你還是要遵從整個中央政府的意見但至少我今天聽到的就是希望滿滿啊我看你態度很開放啊沒有很強硬說啊今天我就反對啊 對不對所以至少這個態度是一個好的起點我們也會繼續努力啦然後去跟我們的執政政府協調請我們的中央政府真的把勞工當作真正"},{"start":6587.834,"end":6597.725,"text":"心中最軟的一塊不要讓大家加班加到肝硬化那接下來我想請教您人事長去年我們也差不多這時間在這裡3月27號你記得你當時承諾我什麼事情嗎"},{"start":6603.017,"end":6617.394,"text":"考你記憶不對啦不能這樣考你我直接說啦你說你非常認同我的建議就是我們今天這個公務員調心法治化你會在年底前來提出現在年底過了嗎"},{"start":6620.737,"end":6637.416,"text":"我該做的努力 我已經做了 我等你十年了你不能只有努力啦 任市長你去年你都跳我票不是啊 行政院有它固定的一個行政程序啊 什麼案子要排列我跟妳講 任市長我先跟妳講齁我不否定你的努力啦"},{"start":6638.197,"end":6654.93,"text":"但是你也知道今天又不是說今天學生考試在看成績今天政府執政的努力是要看成果的嘛成績可能是個人的我今天考得好考不好是我個人的事情可是你的成果攸關的就是國家"},{"start":6655.871,"end":6678.565,"text":"所以我跟你講 我沒有說今天要苛責你啦可是說你去年給我期待滿滿 你跟我講我在去年3月質詢你的時候 你跟我講年底就會來做法治化我當然就想 那太好了 我就覺得很受振奮嘛可是到年底我就看沒有啊那你當然我知道 你說你很努力那中央政府不努力也不能完全怪你啊 不是嗎"},{"start":6679.995,"end":6695.768,"text":"對啦 我就跟委員講 我就跟你講 中年年底 我的課程高起老師 教授當時要拋分數 我不知道你的教授真的是變大啦沒有啦 教授他有的考慮啦你那個中央政府教授變大啦那我想請教我們人事長 你可以再努力一點喔請那個教授不要再睡了啦"},{"start":6703.695,"end":6731.223,"text":"年底前把那個考卷批出來好不好再給你一個年底好不好你去年三月跟我講年底今年三月我再跟你講年底可以嗎可不可以其實我跟委員報告啦我三不五辭都去拜託啦我都有在持續做這件事情因為行政院他面對的這個法案的數量也非常多他有固定的一個排審在處理啦好謝謝謝謝任市長啦所以拜託任市長"},{"start":6732.023,"end":6745.79,"text":"我們一起努力一下好不好謝謝你謝謝羅志強委員光晚跟你說 欽佩你 認同你 你也相信你實在是接下來我們請王逸川委員質詢主席 請人事長"},{"start":6761.075,"end":6777.151,"text":"請人事長委員長人事長好請教幾個問題,中華民國公務員有反共的責任跟義務嗎?人是合不在用反共啦"},{"start":6778.741,"end":6791.367,"text":"只是說我們在政府我們要到公部門服務的時候都會簽一些切結書不能有雙重國籍的你會開始做公務人員的時候政府會叫你反共以前是用法的啦這沒規定就對了反共已經五六十年了所以中華民國的公務人員沒一定要反共"},{"start":6807.056,"end":6811.738,"text":"第二 中華民國公務員可不可以主張武統武力統一台灣這一點肯定不行那中華民國公務員可不可以主張統一台灣 中國統一台灣那違反了我們最上位的一個原則中華民國公務員不可以主張中國統一台灣"},{"start":6837.588,"end":6860.387,"text":"不可以那中華民國公務員可不可以有中華人民共和國的身份證不可以那可不可以有中華人民共和國的居住證那都不可以那可不可以有中華人民共和國的台胞證台胞證不可以台胞證不可以好我怕你說錯了 你靠我聽也沒關係"},{"start":6862.711,"end":6880.083,"text":"因為你這講的都...你人事長你也說不出口中華民國公務員可不可以每個禮拜六禮拜天都去中國?應該是沒有這個限制因為你看金門媽祖的日子 今天他有時都會過去他如果請假請試假 他沒有說他要出國"},{"start":6887.83,"end":6910.542,"text":"五六日一 禮拜五禮拜一都請假請試假 早去中國 這樣可以嗎要先請啊 也有去台六就要先請啊那你來看你的指定啦 有些還要核准啦請假的室友所以中華民國公務人員禮拜六禮拜天可不可以去中國不用請假"},{"start":6915.205,"end":6925.448,"text":"應該去大陸市都要申請啦照你講是這樣啊如果你的擔任的職務是比較敏感的我沒有說職務,我就說公務人員照移民署的規定是都要的啦中港澳都要喔?香港澳門都可以,都要喔?所以你如果說金門的金門管政府的人員"},{"start":6945.503,"end":6949.104,"text":"所以拜託你問一下移民署管理的機制是什麼"},{"start":6967.659,"end":6979.427,"text":"因為7月規定要對不對 有人遭遇對不對 沒有申請嘛他就護照卡 台胞證卡 他就捨棄了嘛捨棄了 我們的中華民國政府都不知道我們只知道他出國而已嘛離境嘛"},{"start":6988.189,"end":6997.273,"text":"他電子通關他就出去了嘛他公務員他職等不高 他也不用申請啊他也不用跟政府說啊 還是怎麼樣啊"},{"start":7005.853,"end":7018.06,"text":"他給地方政府,他一定要地方政府授權,他也同意他就可以上去他都沒說啦?都沒說?都沒說是有這個規定啦,有這個規定不行啦那你還要怎樣?一定有相關的法則啊那警察咧?都收工啦,警察原來是要檢修的問題啊所以如果檢紀要上班?"},{"start":7033.031,"end":7041.016,"text":"查證屬實,他所屬的副機關,他就要請陳熙簽辦上來啊好,就他所屬的副機關簽辦上來,阿最重要的怎樣阿最重要的就不知道他是去做什麼事情,他很久沒來啊沒有,他就去這套啦,他去這套啦他就很愛拜六星期去A夢這套,我們不行"},{"start":7057.259,"end":7062.562,"text":"這種那有兩種情形啦,一種是偶遇為之,一種是每天一百出去的這兩種法則當然就不一樣了"},{"start":7069.306,"end":7079.971,"text":"所以這種法者的情況,就是他的情境上事實上不一樣這條我看你再向公務人員宣導一下因為我問你,你看起來也是這樣,是又不是,旁邊又站三個,改成可以又不行我問的地方很清楚,我沒有什麼陷阱給你挑"},{"start":7090.336,"end":7111.381,"text":"好不好 這說中華民國公務員跑去中國 跑去香港 跑去澳門一般公務員喔 不要說只等喔他可不可以不讓中華民國政府知道他跑去哪裡意思就是他都沒行情啦 他都沒行情那如果他沒申請被人家檢舉 他會發生什麼事情"},{"start":7115.779,"end":7144.923,"text":"要出去喔 要出去逮捕 要不然申請的 一定要有懲處行政機關本來就要懲處啊 去日本的 覺得跟中華民國政府講你 要有出境啊 你也要跟你服務的機關申請啊差不多一星期啦學校啊公務員的我們就要請假 請假也是有 就是看你要去哪裡六日啦 六日啦六日去日本喔 去小琉球這樣喔"},{"start":7148.072,"end":7165.775,"text":"好啦好啦,那些有的我了解一下,有意願報告啦這沒有啦,這大家都會當場的那第二個,請問一下如果有公務員被傷掉,現有的服務機關可不可以拒絕?"},{"start":7168.45,"end":7186.474,"text":"目前是雙方要去協商,現在我們同時也跟全序部在討論就是當事人申請你服務機關,你目前的服務機關不能禁止目前我們有跟全序部在討論這個議題阿大概,全序部是反對的阿?沒有啦,他沒有反對阿"},{"start":7188.353,"end":7196.362,"text":"因為我以前在地方做局處長的時候,我也回到這個地方我的同事要去用吊罩,他要用吊罩代表他已經去百合都扣掉了扣掉之後,那個單位就寫一張牌說要把他吊罩了"},{"start":7208.134,"end":7218.576,"text":"所以我可以觀念說要給他照不該給他照 這個權力很大機關修長有這個權沒有不對 但是一種是給他照一種不該給他照 另外一種做辦法的有的可以照 幫人家拿去 對方不可能單於幫他當不是要這種的 陷我們原機關首長不義你知道嗎因為要不然我照了機關就照來了"},{"start":7232.335,"end":7242.318,"text":"說阿腳丟人家就要照你就不可以照我說阿不然他就很優秀我就不想要他照阿不要啦人家瘋了你就不可以照一個議員來講 兩個議員來講這制度上變成我有採樣權那你就會陷這個首長於不義啊機關首長的誘人權你不可以說因為喔這位優秀的你為什麼要留下來啊你不希望他照啊"},{"start":7256.688,"end":7259.611,"text":"接下來工程人員的專業家級就是那個表期的這些適用這個表期的人員最近有沒有在檢討"},{"start":7281.596,"end":7299.363,"text":"有政治專業加級,還有酒流獎金,還有一個工程獎金,這三個都有提起嗎?沒有,我們提起的是適用的人員適用的人員也有改變啦,有報告交通方面的...交通什麼公共行政?交通技術有沒有納入?交通技術,有了吧?"},{"start":7309.434,"end":7312.8,"text":"有,這個有交流來,有交流來,因為最近喔,中年到近"},{"start":7313.382,"end":7338.984,"text":"最近因為我們地方很多交通的專業人員他們是交通技術的他們其實跟那個土木啊其實做的事情是一樣的那他們沒有這一項可以用到表期就這個專業家籍這一塊建議你們把他納進去工程機關他不是工程機關他是一般的機關"},{"start":7342.721,"end":7363.914,"text":"報告委員 我們工程機關的要件已經把交通技術執行納進來我們調查地方政府的交通機關 目前都有符合這個要件最後一個 我們公務員考試考上以後 大家都想要到中央部會所以就會發生一種很詭異的事情 就是他剛考上就到交通部了"},{"start":7364.844,"end":7381.44,"text":"然後他派去地方視察的時候,來都長官嘛然後去到市政府、去到公所啊,他被長官你知道嗎?結果他今天做公務員,做兩年啊,一段時間在市政府、管政府、公所都被他直升,都被他學長結果他會指導這些學長,你覺得這個制度對不對?"},{"start":7387.443,"end":7408.127,"text":"這個問題我委員報告 剛才我們有跟專屬部在討論地方有些值等要去做調整 有人不在進行目前應該有機會在六月底以前會在某些區塊會有一些明顯的一個調整不然的時候會發生一些很詭異的事情 看考上的變長官"},{"start":7413.408,"end":7439.597,"text":"然後這個坐在下面的很吱聲但是因為他是中央來的所以呢就是這很奇怪這檢討一下好不好好謝謝好謝謝王一川委員那接下來我們請最美麗的翁曉琳委員質詢我這不理會把你們額落一下Q&A都太壞了那個翁曉琳委員質詢完以後我們先休息五分鐘"},{"start":7442.853,"end":7457.022,"text":"很高興今天聽到主席稱讚我實不敢當立法院美麗又有智慧的女委員非常多我可能還稱不上不過接下來要請任市長"},{"start":7457.962,"end":7483.411,"text":"請人事長不要騙他來的洗禮委員長我看朝偉也是實話實說吧喔是是哇這個人事長這樣一說害我都不好意思接下來要怎麼問您問題了好那首先我想就是接續的剛剛王一川委員的問題就是到底公務人員去大陸人事總署之前有沒有規定相關的SOP程序有嗎"},{"start":7487.439,"end":7510.285,"text":"離開台灣的這個遊戲規則是在內政部移民署上有一些相關規定那我們會把這個資料會後再提供給委員參考任市長我剛很快的google了一下其實你們人事總書之前就有做過那個PPT啦簡報宣導的什麼公務人員赴大陸偏分成11值等以上跟11值等以下"},{"start":7512.592,"end":7538.468,"text":"對,十一值等以上嘛,受到比較嚴...十值等以上也沒關係,十值等以上就受到比較嚴格的管制十值等以下就比較沒有,就是一般的報備就可以了那現在關鍵點就是說,到底請假,就是利用自己的休假時間去大陸要不要報備?只要去大陸,不管你是用休假還是公假都要申請"},{"start":7539.076,"end":7544.526,"text":"都要申請報備嘛基本上報備的這個概念所以這個是現在就有的規定"},{"start":7546.252,"end":7571.053,"text":"對 那剛剛王議員 王一川委員他問的這樣的問題顯然是好像沒有做功課所以實際上我們都有在做了我不知道是不是現在已經是有人就違反相關的規定那麼如果說陸委會 移民署或是相關的機關有查到公務人員沒有報備沒有經過許可就去大陸那就把相關處罰案例拿出來講否則的話我覺得這樣刁難任市長我覺得並不公平"},{"start":7574.904,"end":7596.006,"text":"那接下來我也想請教的這個問題就是人事長您有注意到在3月17號警察院他有做了一個報告就說現在有他們有發現高階公務人員辭職又轉任政務官或者是他短期回任到事務官那之後又再"},{"start":7597.35,"end":7616.489,"text":"復回去擔任政務官的這樣子的一個情況屢見不鮮而在近期他們有發現就是在監察院的報告裡面有發現大概累積地方政府還有中央政府的案例大概有11件"},{"start":7617.31,"end":7643.117,"text":"相關的情況都是政務官短期轉任成務文官再回任到原來的政務職務請問任市長為什麼會有這樣的問題出現我跟委員報告事實上他們這樣操作是符合規定的啦符合規定只是說他這一種轉換的時間太短因為像"},{"start":7644.097,"end":7665.384,"text":"舉一個例子啦像明年有些縣市首長已經兩任任期到了那有些蠻優秀的公務人員本來是11職等他現在當政務官嘛那如果明年年底之後他那個縣市長下來以後這個級數首長沒有繼續留任他只能夠領到11職等為了等於"},{"start":7669.625,"end":7693.671,"text":"退休以後對這些長任文官轉政務官的給他比較好的一些待遇他們會去做轉換的動作但是說這個時間太長大家觀感不好啦你如果有半年或者一年大家是覺得還比較OK因為有些是一天或一個禮拜就轉大家的那種觀感一定是不好的"},{"start":7694.671,"end":7713.584,"text":"市長您很清楚這樣的問題而且這個優秀的事務官去戒掉去當政務官之後政務官可能因為首長離開或是首長另有考量那政務官又短暫的離開之後又回到事務官或是又再"},{"start":7715.284,"end":7731.97,"text":"這個政務官這涉及到公務員他本身的續薪的問題他的資歷年資甚至有些退休公務員已經借齡退休像去年防部次長陳明堂就是這樣的一個例子因為他已經要借齡退休了"},{"start":7733.291,"end":7749.309,"text":"那他又必須要辭職 辭職之後又回去當事務官然後11天之後又再被聘為次長歷史這個問題已經長期都存在在我們的公務體系人事總長這個問題沒有辦法解決嗎"},{"start":7752.321,"end":7778.706,"text":"我認為說你們也失職應該要想辦法去解決這個問題明明就是從多年來這個案例屢見不鮮而且我們現在沒有修法或是人事總處這裡沒有態度要透過怎麼樣行政解釋去讓這些事務官們可以很順利的也銜接他們的年資或他們的續薪等級不要說一定要回到原單位才退休"},{"start":7781.019,"end":7799.511,"text":"我想我這裡大概可以承諾委員我們再來跟前序部來討論看這個事情要如何比較圓滿的來解決因為事實上現在我理解的就有幾個縣市的高階文官現在是政務官可是他的職等就是11職等"},{"start":7800.591,"end":7828.297,"text":"他在那個機關服務5到6年你看這樣的一個年資對之前他們到地方政府服務的對他們來講是相對不公平好OK那接下來我還要進入到另外一個話題就是剛剛其實有些委員有在問了就軍公教條新法制化那麼也知道就是人事總處這裡已經提出了軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案那麼本席其實已經將"},{"start":7829.817,"end":7853.157,"text":"人事長這邊所提出的這個條例草案有拜讀過你們大概訂定了有七條那裡面有些部分是我感到有疑問的在這邊請教你們這次將在這個條例草案裡面有一個部分就是要未來要成立一個軍公教人員的年度通案待遇調整諮詢會議可是在你們諮詢會議裡面"},{"start":7855.589,"end":7879.431,"text":"所未來規劃能夠成為諮詢委員的部分譬如說除了人事總長您還有副人事長之外中央機關代表七人地方機關代表四人現職公教人員代表四人專家學者四人就這樣子的一個規劃本席好奇的是你地方機關代表四人你怎麼產生現職公教人員代表四人你怎麼產生"},{"start":7883.769,"end":7912.709,"text":"我們現在地方機關我們有22個縣市對我們會報告委員我們那個地方政府的部分我們會輪流就是說比如說直轄市跟縣市的部分我們會分別就是每一屆的委員所以22個縣市你要輪流幾次才會輪到目前都是用目前中央教待遇審議委員會也是這種機制就是說地方所以這樣的制度是不合理的啊不是嗎"},{"start":7914.695,"end":7936.647,"text":"所以有可能都是先從民進黨政府執政的縣市先輪不會不會像現在桃園跟台東關我們會有直轄市還有一般的16個縣市的像台東的還有桃園的我們一般來講我們會注意到這個橫平性"},{"start":7938.297,"end":7956.129,"text":"是啦我要提醒你們就說是這樣子的安排基本上不是很合理而且是由你們人事總署自己去指定哪些地方機關可以去推派代表除此之外現職公教人員代表四人我們現在台灣有多少的公務員有多少的公教人員"},{"start":7958.325,"end":7985.095,"text":"然後你要怎麼樣去領選這四位公教人員報告委員我們那個縣職公教人員代表是由那個全國工人協會跟中華民國全國教師會各推派兩人因為他們都屬於全國性的一個協會一個團體所以會由這兩個團體分別指派兩位代表來參與那你如果是這樣的話應該是說是不是就應該是說是由這個公教人員的相關組織來推派"},{"start":7987.836,"end":7992.434,"text":"是不是 坦白說這公務人員協會 它是公會嗎"},{"start":7994.684,"end":8020.583,"text":"他是協會嘛 他不是工會嘛剛剛羅志強委員有講我們現在台灣是一個有全世界的驕傲就是我們的工時很長我這邊要跟任市長講台灣另外一個全世界的驕傲就是我們公教人員被政府管得死死的尤其是公務人員到現在為止全世界沒有公務人員 工會的就只有台灣"},{"start":8023.482,"end":8039.918,"text":"大部分國家都沒有 如果有的話大概英國有而已美國自由之家社就已經說了全世界唯一沒有公務人員公會的國家就是中華民國"},{"start":8044.756,"end":8057.619,"text":"連現在對岸中國大陸他們都有公文人員公會但是我們沒有所以這個就是一個很嚴重的問題啊我們公文人員不能組公會以至於政府要我們簽拒絕簽這個忠誠切結書我們就得簽會不會是翻譯的問題"},{"start":8064.841,"end":8088.963,"text":"他不是公會而是協會政府機關我們公務人員都有協會法尤其這一次的協會法也有做一些換官我要說的是我們總是要向西方新進國家學習請您告訴我日本韓國歐盟這些國家美國有哪些國家是沒有公務人員公會的"},{"start":8090.323,"end":8114.692,"text":"我們會後提供給委員我們手上有資料人事長你覺得公務人員該不該有工會我個人是覺得現在公務人員協議法你支持公務人員有工會我是支持公務人員協會對於工會的話因為我們還有一些疑慮而且公務人員的公會本身他是公務人員你今天在政府機關服務是有"},{"start":8116.132,"end":8140.874,"text":"按照那個法律的國家法律的義務責任跟一般的工會他的規定不一樣請問一般的勞工不需要依法嗎他不需要遵守現行的教師法嗎用的法律不一樣用的法律不同啊教師要遵守教師法公務人員要遵守公務人員法就公務人員來講他的雇主就是國家就是政府我講白一點啦我如果是"},{"start":8142.014,"end":8164.428,"text":"我要主公會他的訴求就是要罷工嗎?民眾對政府公務人員的罷工大家支持嗎?這個問題我覺得是核心的問題要先討論如果民眾對公務人員罷工這個議題有意見的話我覺得這個政策還是先在公務人員身上其實人事長我覺得您的觀念是落伍的"},{"start":8165.932,"end":8191.907,"text":"產住資工會不是只有罷工包含勞資協商包含權益的福利等等這些都可以現在協會基本上它這個功效不彰而且如果你認為協會就有為什麼不能夠直接就是定在工會法裡面啊你要弄了一個特別的公務人員協會所以這個就是一個根本的觀念我們現在已經進入到21世紀"},{"start":8194.648,"end":8215.068,"text":"我們台灣應該要像我們在尤其是在公務員的體制法制方面要向先進國家學習否則公務人員永遠被政府吃死死管死死不會喔所以是"},{"start":8216.891,"end":8235.756,"text":"所以任市長你不知道最近因為這個你們也配合陸委會要求大家要填公教人員要填這個忠誠切結書這件事情你不知道基層有反彈嗎非常少數為什麼不敢"},{"start":8241.849,"end":8260.503,"text":"是 我同意你這句話對卓家忠誠問題沒有打折的空間所以到底現在我們的政府是抓到有幾個公教人員是違反國安法 違反反滲透法的填這樣的一個忠誠切結書就能夠表示我沒有所以誠實申報"},{"start":8270.293,"end":8298.222,"text":"是誠實申報,你的誠實申報不然你就定在法律裡面啊現在相關規定已經有了相關規定有規定在哪裡?有規定在哪裡?兩岸關係條例兩岸關係條例沒有要求大家要誠實申報啊所以我的意思是講說,這個其實就是涉及到人事長您對於公教人員的地位、權益、尊嚴的一個態度、一個觀念、想法"},{"start":8299.434,"end":8328.284,"text":"我現在我完全支持我們政府如果說有查到任何的公務人員違反兩岸關係條例違反反滲透法、國安法或是國家精密保護法要嚴懲但是這是屬於政府機關自己要依法行政依職權去調查而不是叫大家全部都來簽竊結書現在我還只是針對公教人員現在已經擴大到所有的國營事業那下一個階段呢"},{"start":8328.804,"end":8335.335,"text":"是不是所有的企業勞工全部大家都要填最後是每個人以後都要自己申報"},{"start":8337.768,"end":8352.014,"text":"我跟委員報告一件事情這就像銀行叫我們要填個人資料保護的相關的先告那個觀念一樣不要把它變成一個汙名化它就是我不是說要汙名化我現在意思是講說任市長你要從根本的怎麼樣去維護公教人員的尊嚴權益這個角度去出發"},{"start":8366.219,"end":8389.014,"text":"就像我說的,99.9%的公教人員都會填但是也要去尊重那些為什麼不想填的人他們就是匪諜嗎?他們就是中共同步人嗎?不想填的人他可以不填,而且也沒有罰則目前的遊戲規則就是這樣謝謝翁小玲委員,雙方都很完整的論述跟回答謝謝,我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":8962.332,"end":8965.535,"text":"好 現在繼續開會 請莊瑞雄委員進行詢問謝謝主席我如果還不想叫你 你就把它撞開不要緊 要不然你而已 只能叫你而已我們請人事長好 有請人事長 謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":8988.806,"end":9013.587,"text":"人事長,我看今天有一個一則消息,蓋洛普全世界的一個民調,全世界最快樂的國家,對嗎?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔?不單喔"},{"start":9015.41,"end":9025.056,"text":"你這個個人主觀想像,我現在要跟你講的是說,蓋洛普全世界的民調,八連霸有一個國家,全世界最快樂的?你有看到嗎?芬蘭啦!市長他們憂鬱症的人數也不少是,所以快樂的定義,跟還有它產生的衝擊,每個國家會不一樣,那台灣呢?"},{"start":9045.031,"end":9057.038,"text":"我們台灣真的要求白天幾天?台灣應該幾天,因為我們這幾年的經濟每年都好啊但是也有人說我們都過勞啊,工人的壓力也很重啊,大家也是要放假啊,如果要求幾天假,你們就一天頭兩天大啊"},{"start":9066.613,"end":9084.985,"text":"那大家都希望說 大家都放假 還有新選人唸啊所以我就說 這個叫做主觀的想像嘛台灣呢 在亞洲就排名第三全世界呢 排名就27啦也就是說我們有 確實是有很多努力的一個空間啦那當然 你說站在公務人員的立場來看的話你那個總緣額嘛 你想要說緣額不變總緣額不變"},{"start":9095.012,"end":9121.834,"text":"又要嫁 又要結婚之後那其實啊 工作量啊會增加 不會減少嘛公共機關講究的就是一個叫做效率嘛講究的就是一個叫做責任嘛那會有衝突那今天本席就幾個問題要來請教啦那政府啊 我看賴總統去年也提出了一個所謂的身心調適價這樣的一個概念啦那我不曉得"},{"start":9123.055,"end":9141.484,"text":"那這個身心調試假你說讓公務人員可以在整個心理壓力過高的時候來做一個請假也不需要整個病假的一個證明可是在基層公務人員普遍的一個反應我在請試假問題就已經很困難了那何況這種新設立的一個價別譬如說以教育部來看的話"},{"start":9148.067,"end":9171.473,"text":"今年八月 去年 去年八月去 它就可以稱身心的調適價可是呢 很多學生也反映啊 我都遭受到刁難啦那功夫機關呢 到底會不會出現這樣的一個問題啊那我不曉得 人總這個地方 你們對於這樣的一個身心調適價這樣的一個概念 這個價別 你們的態度怎麼樣"},{"start":9173.934,"end":9188.08,"text":"我的委員報告三月十七號我們已經申請調適假簽了基本上當事人在申請三天調適假裡面就是Incover在整個試駕七天裡面機關"},{"start":9190.666,"end":9217.288,"text":"不能犯罪,而且他也不用檢護什麼證明就是確保當事人他要申請的,而且機關也不能對申請調適假的人做出就是有害的一些處分,你算是苛責還是其他的都不行那時候要保障那所以說申請調適假以現在來看的話本來你說七天裡面,那年齡你還沒算出來嗎?還沒算一天啊?"},{"start":9219.722,"end":9240.433,"text":"三年裡面可以贏啊,因為暑假先贏贏,之後又不會加啊所以它真正的實意是什麼?第一個,不列為考積它就不用證明嘛,也不影響它的考積嘛因為暑假一般你會清很多暑假的科學的應用我倒這樣看啦"},{"start":9241.363,"end":9260.173,"text":"你說身心調適價,我們最怕的就是會被標籤化了,會覺得你偷懶,怕會造成一個負面的影響那第二個,跑去放假了,那其他人來看的話,會不會有職務代理的問題?你也必須要去考慮到這樣的一個問題啊"},{"start":9262.116,"end":9290.385,"text":"基本上當事人是有需要才去申請 剛才委員提的是有可能啦因為喔 就一個人好好的 阿不然代表是去請其實齁 這個問題以目前的情況來講齁 發生的機會齁但同仁之間齁 發生了這一種所謂的懷疑 阿那個人好好的去請假他本來就有他的管理可以去請啦是啦 我要跟你們講就是說啊你這個政府你既然要提出來以後 你就是要去落實啦"},{"start":9291.385,"end":9318.225,"text":"不是說你本地就好啊 你本地就有啊這個態度我就覺得反而那個政府這樣的一個美意又要被打折扣了 好不好好 那另外啊 本席要來請教的就是說我最近看到國民黨的朋友他們也一直在拋一個議題就是還我七天假 這樣的一個議題出來我不曉得任總你的態度是怎麼樣國民黨現在提案說要恢復過去刪除了七天的國慶假日"},{"start":9319.807,"end":9335.121,"text":"我們比較擔心的就是說 這樣的一個議題其實都可以討論啦也沒有哪一個政黨說提出來以後他一定就會賺到一個放假的一個紅利 未必這個未必都會有政治上的紅利 為什麼會衝擊到民間 衝擊到企業你像譬如說這個假裝都回來了 對民眾來講的話"},{"start":9341.747,"end":9347.135,"text":"我譬如說你應用在你政府的一個運作那你像譬如說副政機關稅務單位或者說交通或者醫療這個對民眾產生的一個衝擊"},{"start":9357.169,"end":9378.245,"text":"提案的人他未必會享受到紅利那一個案子這個如果說這個法假設通過了以後衝擊到的是民眾衝擊到了一般的民眾或者衝擊到企業的一個運作所以我不曉得你任總你真正對這項的修法裡面的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":9379.537,"end":9408.895,"text":"基本上紀念日到節日實施辦法是內政部在主管的就是主管那邊下的嘛基本上那個上位的部分內政部他去頂我們要來修改 擺改我們要怎麼擺這樣啦有一個上下游的關係啦也要你們的態度啊 都會遷就你們啊我也相信你們說要內政部主管的但問題就是說這涉及到整個政府整體的一個運作的穩定性"},{"start":9409.395,"end":9435.107,"text":"跟民眾接受到政府機關服務它的一個順暢而且也牽扯到整個民間企業的一個運作這個都會衝擊到啊你怎麼可以這樣說 這是我們內政部主管而已我覺得這個事情 剛才委員提的這些民間業者的經營成本的問題還有一個就是小孩子的售價錢的問題那當然你放假了 尤其偏鄉的孩子 說真的啦"},{"start":9436.348,"end":9465.541,"text":"他的教育資源本來就比較匱乏,你又放假又放這麼多,對他們來說相對不公平所以說你的態度我又聽不懂啊我的態度就是持保留啊,因為你就是保留嘛,就不是只有內政部而已嘛對不對,你就不是說這個就不是什麼內政部主管機關嘛就是說我人種,我對於這樣的一個修法,你們就是保留嘛保留也是有道理啊,不是沒有道理,這本來就可以討論啊Open discussion"},{"start":9466.314,"end":9484.608,"text":"不錯,來,想問一下一條,你針對於原住民主碎石計一價裡面我一直在盯這樣的一個問題,就是說這樣的一個價別裡面,你可不可以讓大家尤其讓我們原住民的朋友,不要讓他們看得到"},{"start":9487.608,"end":9511.71,"text":"請不上你像譬如說我們政府就允許原住民在按照族群的遂時計放假一天但問題就是說這項的一個權益裡面有的人真的不知道就變成說有價可以請的人我沒請到就白白吃虧了那部分的企業或者機關他甚至於不了解整個的一個政策導致員工的請假"},{"start":9512.791,"end":9523.251,"text":"有人去請的忙 也是用記招 甚至於說還要不知心所以我在這個地方啊 具體的來建議就是說是不是在我們每一年的辦公日曆上 我們去加注"},{"start":9524.318,"end":9548.236,"text":"原住民族碎石記憶架的一個資訊那你透過整個官方行事曆的一個曝光以後啊提高社會對原住民族文化的一個認識那也可以去確保整個企業跟機關明確了解放假的一個規定你避免整個執行上的一個混亂請教我們這個任總這邊的看法我委員報告啦 就你螢幕上這張齁"},{"start":9550.217,"end":9565.565,"text":"正面反面說真的我們會利用被住的地方去做一個序名啦所以就代表我們原來沒做啦現在你把它加下去我們有寫說按照原住民委員會的公告有寫這樣的"},{"start":9566.724,"end":9590.88,"text":"我們直接給他註明 好不好 因為在那裡在那裡有什麼 還有娥姐 父 王子我們先要更加明確 人總是不是願意在下一年度的行事你加裝這個資訊的資訊來落實整個政策的一個效益就這樣 你看 我在那裡你建議加注原住民的稅時計餘價的一個資訊 可以嗎"},{"start":9594.241,"end":9596.242,"text":"我來教我來教這樣是不是就清楚了這樣企業也不會混亂我原住民的朋友我只要看到這張表以後會覺得這天就是我可以來請教的這樣可以嗎"},{"start":9607.257,"end":9633.123,"text":"但是我要跟委員講 他的幾十多個報告的歷史都不一樣那都公園嘛 但是至少這個價 我們就把他這個資訊就把它列進去嘛我們那個資訊提供更加明確一點不要只有提供一個網址啦 更加明確可以啦 這個表要加進去以後 他就知道說讓企業主也知道說這天他可以簽到原住民朋友會覺得說這天真的就是我的福利 而且是法定的 好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":9635.831,"end":9637.972,"text":"好 謝謝莊銳雄委員 謝謝任市長好 謝謝 我們接下來請陳培宇委員質詢好 謝謝主席 接下來有請任市長有請我們任市長"},{"start":9667.079,"end":9683.592,"text":"人事長早安我們來看一下我要先肯定我們在去年12月13號人事總署這邊啟動了職場霸凌案件通報平台這個平台已經開始運作了我們看到資料從12月13號"},{"start":9684.833,"end":9699.02,"text":"到2月28號目前呢收件數327在處理的138撤案的時期已經結案的172所以呢最後霸凌調查成立的目前看到的數字是1.7%"},{"start":9701.121,"end":9716.672,"text":"那我當然不是這個霸凌處理或者是討論的專家但是我想要跟任市長分享一個可能性我們來討論看看我相信很多人看到這個1.7%只有三個案子成立我覺得很多人一定會滿頭問號"},{"start":9720.295,"end":9735.184,"text":"會認為這個比例好像有一點不是太合乎我們一般人日常生活經驗中的了解更何況是非常多行政機關大家所擔心的問題那我們來看一下如果我們來看一個個案來 下一張"},{"start":9737.225,"end":9759.093,"text":"這邊這個案子我當然就不點名是哪一個單位不過因為它是發生在人事單位的這個報告裡面是這樣寫的他說呢另有冷嘲熱諷以及咆哮的行為可是呢就這個提出來的個案它所能夠提供的證據只能證明被申訴人偶有上開行為"},{"start":9760.313,"end":9778.431,"text":"就是好像看不出那個頻率跟次數有多麼密集也不是很確定到底是不是很多很多這樣子所以呢決定不成立這個案子應該是不成立我再一次強調我尊重專業的認定跟判斷那可是呢我要提醒人是這樣我覺得這真的"},{"start":9780.413,"end":9799.569,"text":"跟我們一般的認知除了從數字端剛我說的數字端到這個報告但我想要分享另外一個我們之前在教育部也處理非常多校園裡面師對生 生對生甚至是生對師都有可能的相關霸凌的"},{"start":9801.351,"end":9830.03,"text":"邏輯我們是這樣想的本來以前在校園裡面我們來看一下下一張這是你們目前給我們的流程如果我們參考校園裡面以前在校園裡面我們確實有遇到過這種到底情況如何認定誰說了算頻率要多少次數要多少或者是那個樣態要長成什麼樣子我們才可以被認定為大齡成立這個對孩子的權益或是對在校園裡面老師的權益對行政人員權益非常的重要"},{"start":9830.65,"end":9852.597,"text":"後來呢在霸凌防制準則裡面呢教育部潘部長在卸任前他們整個學特斯結合非常多專家學者會議開了非常非常多的會也聽了校園裡面的意見也聽了兒少代表的意見大家後來決定是只要有單獨一次"},{"start":9853.857,"end":9875.298,"text":"有人提出申訴就必須要開相關的委員會積極的討論跟去判斷這件事情以前是如果只有一次單次事件他們連開都不開會那開會之後要不要成立我們當然交由專業的委員會那我們回到委員會的機制委員會的機制他們甚至後來因為學校裡面師師相護的狀態其實"},{"start":9879.946,"end":9898.315,"text":"很常聽見當然不是全台灣的老師都這樣可是因為有非常多的案件像之前很嚴重的封中後來小孩是自殺墜樓這個事件讓我們更努力去想我們如何避免實時相互所以後來教育部他們就決定成立一個外部人才資料庫"},{"start":9899.275,"end":9917.107,"text":"也就是他們受過一些受過專業訓練的人被教育部放在這個人才資料庫裡面所以如果學校要啟動相關霸凌事件調查的時候他就必須要去這個資料庫裡面找人或者是有相關的機制也就是他不是只是學校裡面去找"},{"start":9918.067,"end":9943.918,"text":"那確保這個公平性那不管是加害者或者是被申訴的人被申訴的人就是加害者或者是受害者大家都會覺得這樣感覺公平一點公開一點透明一點大家比較願意信任這個機制站在保護為上我非常感謝教育部做這個改革但因為我剛剛已經先說我非常感謝人事總處先開啟了這個通報平台但是我在想我們可不可以後續在這個平台"},{"start":9945.118,"end":9971.778,"text":"後續其他的配套上我們可以更細緻包含我剛說的可不可以有人才資料庫或者是相關的時間點或者是這個如何認定這件事情我認為平台是良善的第一步我們後續可不可以為這些行政機關裡面的人再多做一點多做一點讓所有這些還願意留在行政機關為民服務的公務員不管他是基層不管他是長官不管他是階級比較大的"},{"start":9972.318,"end":9996.211,"text":"他們都可以好好安心的工作為人民服務我想要問一下董事長你的意見裡面大概有兩個部分一個人才資料庫的問題事實上前陣子我到一些縣市去他們我們人事主管有跟我們反映因為那些人要找大概就是心理師或者精神醫師或者律師事實上我有建議他們"},{"start":9997.872,"end":10025.091,"text":"就是建一個類似人才資料庫的概念因為現在的人說這個台北分他都被各個機關booking很忙所以上一年12月去的時候他說有些是要輪到今年的4月那個當事人才有空所以剛才委員提的那個人才資料庫的概念是非常好讓這一些有需要的機關學校他可以從人才資料庫有更完整的選材的"},{"start":10027.352,"end":10056.211,"text":"各位因為我們現在的一個參議的外部委員基本上要超過一半所以要把這些人全部都找齊這個時間有時候也坦白講不方便所以有些機關他們開這個調查會的時候有時候是早上8點就開始開有些是中午有些是要當晚或晚上來開剛才委員這一個資料我想我們會去補充這方面的資料"},{"start":10057.312,"end":10080.721,"text":"就是處理的類似QA的部分我們也會把它放進來因為每一個機關的承辦人員因為經驗的問題或者判斷的問題有時候該怎麼處理我們會把過去累積的一個經驗也放在這個平台讓這些同仁可以進來reference有一個比較完整的QA那有一點類似知識庫的這個概念"},{"start":10080.981,"end":10099.195,"text":"好 太好了 我很開心聽到人事長正向的回應還有一個我覺得可能很細緻但是可能對於被害人會有很重要的保護作用跟宣示作用代表我們行政院對這件事情就是有態度的也就是目前在教育端的做法是會對於當事人有調離限職的配套設計我們有機會嗎"},{"start":10102.314,"end":10130.481,"text":"我們目前就是已經在這樣做了目前已經這樣做了嗎以人種的我們的做法是這樣所以我們是有一個公文下去希望所有行政機關都用這個配套但是我們這樣人因為他那個霸凌的那個嚴重程度不大一樣而且他要安排他的職缺的問題有些是職缺的安排有些霸凌的狀況當事人的一個scenario不一樣所以他們會有不一樣的一個安排"},{"start":10131.561,"end":10157.15,"text":"會有不一樣的安排好那意思就是說我們目前你的態度是支持的而且我們相關的做法有相關的公文或是行政命令下去了嗎讓各個機關知道說不是只有您在這邊宣示而是我們真的有這個可能性可是我剛剛已經說了它是配套那如果在人力的調度上有困難我們要怎麼來積極面對我覺得這是後續要討論的這不是我們今天在這邊討論完但是我就是提出一個提醒好"},{"start":10158.671,"end":10185.689,"text":"我們再跟同仁討論看看就是要如何來協助各個人事機關如果遇到有霸凌那個把他的本職請去做調離限職的應該就是很清楚就叫做調離限職的配套設計好最後一個如果我是被害人然後我對於相關的處理結果我認為我不滿意我不接受那有遇到調查爭議的時候我們上級機關介入調查申訴機制目前這部分有開啟了嗎"},{"start":10186.986,"end":10193.093,"text":"有有有 因為我們已經有開啟了所以一樣嘛 也是你知道但是我們所有的行政機關都知道"},{"start":10193.976,"end":10218.377,"text":"有啦 我們有發文過 你要上級機關要介入因為現在像有些部會就已經上級在介入直接協助好 那這個部分我們也會再跟任總這邊釐清我覺得確實如果我們有這麼多積極的作為包含你剛剛也已經承諾了人才資料庫你也很認同我們就往這個方向一起來努力我們讓更多所有這些為大家服務的公務員真的覺得政府有跟大家站在一起 好不好好"},{"start":10219.358,"end":10243.203,"text":"那接下來我們來看我還有40秒好再來我們談到關於行政法人的評鑑行政法人的評鑑當然目前的KPI是法人自己訂然後監督機關來審核然後評鑑小組來評分那我們看到其實常常有很多的法人其實大家對於他們的服務跟表現狀態是有些疑慮的以我過去在教委我們看到國訓中心裡面常常很多讓人家冒頭冒問號這樣子我想問一下這幾年的評鑑狀況"},{"start":10249.284,"end":10273.152,"text":"或者是人種這邊有沒有什麼可能性來談這個事情當然我知道權責跟相關的分工可是我們可不可以更積極來面對這個事情基本上我跟委員報告這些都有它的主管機關像文化部門的教育部那我們從行政法人的一個主管機關我們事實上也有在努力"},{"start":10274.773,"end":10287.708,"text":"第一個TRAINING的問題啦,我說真的第一個TRAINING的問題第二個是AWARENESS的問題我們希望說讓更多人了解行政法人他的角色的扮演他應該怎麼處理,坦白講"},{"start":10289.65,"end":10314.058,"text":"我承認我們還有努力的空間所以我們確實認同還有一定的機制跟相關的可能性去調整他們的awareness也好你剛說他們的awareness或者是他們的training確實都需要人總這邊更積極的不要說是插手啦而是有一些機制去讓這件事情變得更好對不對不要讓大家覺得我們好像就是自己給自己打分數啦"},{"start":10316.238,"end":10323.512,"text":"這有一點類似我們在訂一個guideline給他們然後也必須要去practice所以這個guideline是有機會在多久以內訂出來"},{"start":10325.669,"end":10339.178,"text":"目前都有 可是我覺得就是剛才我跟委員報告的就是Awareness跟Training的部分我們還要再加強那相關的機制我們今天就不在這裡討論我們辦公室之後再跟你們實質開會討論我們會把一些相關資料先送委員辦公室上考好 謝謝 好 謝謝人長好 謝謝陳培宇陳委員 接下來請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":10367.919,"end":10391.018,"text":"主席 在場的委員 先進列席的政務機關長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們蘇委人事長請人事長委員早委員長早先輕鬆一下看一段影片 我們來看一下來可以嗎怎麼抱歉 這時間暫停一下剛剛不是要播影片嗎按左邊"},{"start":10398.587,"end":10419.696,"text":"这还没设定好抱歉这个还要设定一下值得看了回来就好那医院开给你的薪水是32K13个月三节奖金各500等一下怎么才32K当护理师薪水不是很高的吗我最近都在看新闻说年资不到一年的护理师平均薪资六到几万年资六至七年约74K才对耶"},{"start":10420.373,"end":10445.183,"text":"放心我們除了底薪外還有輪班津貼跟餐費津貼簽約獎金等上小業會有600大約900元確定錄取你後醫院會跟你簽合約OK好來那個人長這個影片你覺得目前我們台灣社會是不是對於醫療機構的醫護人員我們都認為要提升他們的待遇"},{"start":10446.472,"end":10461.436,"text":"大家普遍有這樣的一個期待那你知道我們公立醫療機構的護理人員的薪資是多少嗎他的薪資結構你們有做統計嗎因為我是指公立的喔衛福部上週公布各醫院護理人員的薪資人種有沒有類似的統計我我"},{"start":10465.951,"end":10493.724,"text":"大概四升級大概四萬多啦四一六八零我們要有一個奉典奉額還有專業家級的一個累積有私籍跟市籍的嘛對私籍到六萬七左右私籍到六萬七喔對我們部立屏東醫院如果是護理是私籍的最基層的之前的有46K如果是市籍的有39K經常薪資是本薪加固定津貼非經常薪資是加班費加非固定獎金是不是這樣子"},{"start":10494.264,"end":10521.156,"text":"是好我補充一下師醫級的也算高九萬八千六六百六師醫級師那是最高啦醫師護理師都是師啦好那我們現在看來其實呢我遇到很多公立大型醫院的院長管理階層他們說現在大型醫院你也知道國人的就醫習慣很喜歡去大型醫院急診啊加護病房啊這醫護人力都過度勞動啊"},{"start":10522.176,"end":10546.57,"text":"負荷過高 所以他說我們可不可以把業外收入拿來提獎金 為什麼因為事業收入呢 受到健保總額的限制他沒有辦法去調但是呢 如果公立醫院大型機構他的業外收入像停車場啦 美食街廣場啦他有這個空間 他想要公立醫院可不可以從業外收入提撥獎勵金來給這些特別辛苦的醫護人員"},{"start":10549.694,"end":10563.552,"text":"我謝謝委員這個問題事實上這個問題之前我有跟主計長討論過我就拜託主計長他們可以去整體的衡量因為兩個角度啦一個就是說你要提供獎金是應該"},{"start":10565.114,"end":10587.603,"text":"跟醫療是相關嘛另外一個就是以更大的範圍裡面在醫院的場域裡面提供相關服務的他也把他的營收列入整個鋪合對 但是你有問過人事長 主計長我也問過主計長那主計長提醒一點不是每個醫院 公立醫院都有這個條件大型機構人潮多錢潮多 業外收入高"},{"start":10588.283,"end":10614.274,"text":"比較中小型的公立醫院就沒有這個辦法搞不好這樣子會造成人才往醫學中心集中他提出這個顧慮你是不是也覺得有這個可能有 當然一定會有這個可能所以呢要從大型公立醫院才有的業外收入去提高他們的獎金話說回來會有一些可能的後遺症那這樣好不好那如果我們普遍的把公職護理師的專業佳績提高來留才這進一步還會帶動私立醫院的加薪你覺得可不可行可以嗎"},{"start":10619.346,"end":10644.892,"text":"我們這一次調薪會專業家計表24會調整會針對我們公立醫院的醫護人力是不是這樣對好你承諾了好我們等著看好那接下來另外我們來看到這是剛公佈的去年的金控全國的金控14家的平均薪資出爐了第一名是元大金那我們看到如果是泛公股的有兆豐有第一有和酷有華南四家入榜"},{"start":10645.552,"end":10668.514,"text":"你認為國營的金融機構要如何與飯工股和民營爭財我跟您提醒 什麼叫國營的金融機構就是台灣銀行 土地銀行跟輸出的銀行他們簡稱叫台土輸你覺得有沒有辦法來跟他們談 這裡面都沒有台灣銀行沒有在入黨你覺得是不是要幫助這些國營金融機構他們的待遇提升來跟民間來爭取人才"},{"start":10670.638,"end":10693.821,"text":"基本上我是支持,不過它本身有一個遊戲規則好,我們來看一下這個遊戲規則其實很遺憾的,不曉得那個時空背景在第八屆第四會前,國民黨委員提出的提案限制了財政部所屬的事業機構,就是指國營金融機構它的最高績效獎金只能4.4個月你知道嗎,這個跟民間差很大,我們往下看"},{"start":10694.742,"end":10709.582,"text":"現在呢 國營跟飯工股的呢 伙食費人家的是三千 他們是免稅的七百五再往下看那麼生育津貼呢 哇 人家都是什麼一胎十五萬 十萬結果呢 台土輸 台灣金控 土營輸營呢 都"},{"start":10710.703,"end":10732.625,"text":"大概不到一萬塊以下我們來看一下 往前跳一頁台灣銀行的資產規模是另外四家的最前面第一名結果這四家金控 是范工股的金控他們的待遇有進入到前14名台灣銀行輸TIAMTIAM更不要說土地銀行跟輸出銀行所以叫做台土輸啊 輸TIAMTIAM"},{"start":10733.266,"end":10755.647,"text":"那您覺得要怎麼樣來改善呢?你是不是要改善?我跟委員報告大概兩個部分一個剛才提到的獎金4.4的部分的限制立法院那我們給他調啊你給他調,那點我認為立法院調就好第二點,生意補助的問題我們這個禮拜剛簽行政院就是每一台你們都支持,都10萬塊"},{"start":10757.768,"end":10771.853,"text":"這個生意補助十萬從以前到現在我們對這個議題都非常支持我跟你講我剛剛去財政委員會我問財政部長他們有五大基地措施我問他那什麼時候可以實施他說要報院但是院裡面會先問人總的意見我說好我現在馬上問人總你支不支持財政部的這個方案五大方案"},{"start":10777.475,"end":10785.618,"text":"有大方案喔 不是只有生育娜娘喔阿哥4.4調到4.6的那個是那個我們立法院來解決我想立法院會有人反對所以人總支持吧我有跟他交換條件啦其中有兩個是要組總掛定你的部分那三個你支持組總的另外兩個我會再問主席長好不好那你就支持了齁因為我跟他相書啊我說人事長一定會支持他說不曉得咧我說我來馬上問支持啦齁好 謝謝"},{"start":10809.386,"end":10817.015,"text":"要講一下我們請評估提升公職醫護待遇以帶動私立醫院加薪的可行性你們來提出一個書面報告可不可以"},{"start":10818.964,"end":10834.017,"text":"好啦 OK那剛剛講的那個五大方案提升國營金融機構的員工待遇與飯宮股和民營的銀行可以來爭取搶取人才也是一樣你說五項 有三項是你的嘛把這三項拿出來然後呢 你掛簿先給他擠一擠這樣好不好我應該是兩項啦喔 越來越少就多一項出了一項這項是立法院割的嘛立法院我們來改要煮給兩間嘛 都五間啊好 那我們一起努力好不好好 好 謝謝"},{"start":10846.4,"end":10856.926,"text":"好 謝謝 人事長不錯 真開明少子化這個議題 也要補助國家的投資接下來我們請楊瓊英委員質詢謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請人事長請人事長委員長"},{"start":10872.081,"end":10880.645,"text":"我們首先來討論人怎麼留住的問題我們看到113年9月底中央機關職員缺額大概是2043人"},{"start":10886.508,"end":10910.056,"text":"扣除署一級以上的主管 依法令規定保留職缺 考試分發列管還有機要缺 還有臨補中以及借調到其他機關這六類的缺額大概是13226人那還有尚未運用的缺額呢 大概是6817人那他的缺額呢 依照比例是3.6%"},{"start":10911.596,"end":10938.784,"text":"在地方政府裡頭缺額大概是20717人扣除六類六類的缺額是11050人還有尚未運用的缺額大概是9667人他的缺額率是5.2那麼除了因應各項的政策的一個推動要保留我們人才這個彈性調度那因為呢"},{"start":10940.805,"end":10959.094,"text":"這個專業的人員的高度是零補不益比如說治安的人力導致公務人員的缺額是越來越嚴重那請問人事長您有什麼方案可以吸引而且可以留住優秀的人才請做說明"},{"start":10960.213,"end":10983.713,"text":"我覺得委員剛才提的非常好像治安能力的部分事實上從數碼部成立到現在我們一直跟那個治安署在談因為說真的以目前整個市場的供需來講治安能力事實上是嚴重不足很多都會被上市貴公司或者金融機構董事長你現在的角色是人事長"},{"start":10984.514,"end":11012.601,"text":"本席將問題提出你不用再敘述這個內容需要聽聽您有什麼樣的經濟方案可以有誘因可以怎麼樣留住人才治安能力的部分我們除了規定的那一種專業家級表20以外我們有政治專業家級還有留任獎金還有他的團體或個人獎金透過這三種方式來提升他的一個待遇跟收入"},{"start":11012.921,"end":11037.129,"text":"但是目前你所提出的方案還是缺額非常的多零補不益你是不是再去精進因為你如果只有講你目前的樣態那你解決不了問題所以本席會在這邊提出我希望你去精進方案方案給本席我跟委員報告這裡面有兩個部分一個是請治安署他提那個治安的考試職缺"},{"start":11037.689,"end":11054.894,"text":"因為治安的專門類科的考試是上一年才開始開放第一個他要增加這一個職缺招募更多人第二個呢治安署目前同時也在做職能轉訊的部分只要上課上幾十個學分職能轉訊"},{"start":11056.795,"end":11085.278,"text":"第一個也就是希望職缺多開第二個職能轉訓不管你什麼方案我們就希望領補要領補進來這是國家非常重要的人力需求你把經濟方案給本席接下來我要跟你討論的本席要討論的是總統府所謂的健康台灣推動委員會本席非常的重視這一個議案那麼在2月27號的時候召開了第三次會議衛務部我們的邱部長在會中也表示也就是我們這邊也"},{"start":11086.519,"end":11106.027,"text":"有邀請存續部、勞動部還有衛福部一起來商討你們似乎是有獲得了一些共識本期要請教進度有一個增訂公務人員身心調適價本期認為這個非常重要因為現在的壓力太大了所以請教身心調適價在目前價別的適用範圍"},{"start":11110.269,"end":11127.526,"text":"他的假期長度他給新的方式以及實際上執行的細節你們目前狀態研議的方案怎麼樣呢我們已經在3月17號簽成行政院我們還要會考試院我們會送考試院基本上會在"},{"start":11128.206,"end":11150.676,"text":"七天試駕裡面挪三天當申請條試駕他是有薪水的七天挪三天有薪水的有薪水然後服務員機關不能拒絕然後也不必檢查服務的機關不能拒絕就是北市長大這個適用範圍而且也不能做不利於當事人的處罰"},{"start":11151.556,"end":11159.183,"text":"這個非常重要這個非常重要阿不然你清清的了 你考證了對 人家不敢請啊對 又考機又去給你懲罰這個我們都要周圍詳細而且也不用檢護證明不用檢護證明那這個 任總我想今天我歡喜聽到這個進度我希望你趕快去把這個進度追出來因為我覺得我們要留住人才我們要讓他能夠安心"},{"start":11176.96,"end":11201.443,"text":"有需要者 這個是非常非常的重要這個本席特別的勉勵接下來本席要告訴你一句話也就剛剛我們在財政委員會在這一次審查總預算的時候中國國民黨也提出了一個主決議也就供股銀行你要怎麼樣留住這些人才我們所謂的供股銀行跟犯供股的比較差別非常的大"},{"start":11201.923,"end":11230.942,"text":"大約有五項剛剛我們一再的在談論也就是伙食費剛剛財政部長本席告訴你數字財政部長告訴我們伙食費一個月三千生意補助他們簽的是十萬剛剛您說有簽到哪裡簽到行政院了你簽的數字是不是跟財政部長講的一樣是十萬那一樣的接下來也就是員工的這個福利的部分他們是要提出財政部提出稅以前盈餘的1到8%"},{"start":11233.645,"end":11239.651,"text":"第四項 也就是獎金的部分由原先的4.4個月到4.6個月對 這個到4.6個月還有一個就是福利性托 才能夠有保障我希望你這邊要全力的來支持"},{"start":11250.262,"end":11270.184,"text":"因為我們也看到他們要留出人才也非常非常的辛苦因為我說的宮古營養是一個模範生我們如果沒有讓他們能夠安心願意留下來那我們的宮古營養這個模範生的精緻招牌或許就會有很大的衝擊你的看法呢我一直非常支持"},{"start":11271.021,"end":11285.694,"text":"一直非常支持所以一定要趕快努力推動來落實而且這是中共國民黨在審查總預算的時候在立院裡頭大院做出的主決議我們希望能夠完善它謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來有請我們林月琴委員質詢請"},{"start":11309.359,"end":11311.604,"text":"麻煩我們的人事長有請人事長"},{"start":11315.919,"end":11343.486,"text":"昨天早 人事長早那我知道現在我們的總預算在藍白兩黨在亂三的結果呢 事實上還不確定那我也知道現在總預算案還有一些爭議 那行政院也在找那個救濟的手段那左院長呢 事實上一直在對我們公務人員加薪這一塊很努力我還是要來問 就是要幫專業人員爭取該有的福利"},{"start":11344.567,"end":11351.68,"text":"所以我從進立法院就一直對於我們的公職人員的那個加擠的問題我覺得"},{"start":11354.066,"end":11378.113,"text":"在10月17號我有針對這個在座諮詢因為去年3月的時候呢我們的公立學校的校戶呢就來跟我澄清說發現他們1月1號上路的公務人員專業家級的修正事實上是對他們相對不公平的有兩個不公平第一個他跟其他公務人員相比的話他是比較低那校戶呢事實上是更低"},{"start":11381.01,"end":11407.846,"text":"所以就想問就是因為整個盤算起來看起來整個不公平的待遇公職人員有28萬人那其中遭受到雙重打壓的公立學校的校戶大概2690人那所以也想問的是說經過這樣子因為已經他的主管機關一個叫做衛福部一個叫教育部都已經同意的狀況底下在去年年底都把同意已經"},{"start":11408.573,"end":11427.423,"text":"送到建議事項已經送到我們的人事總署這邊所以想問人事長這個議題有關政府組織內部的公平性也關係到醫事人員有沒有被雙重歧視的問題所以是不是想知道說人事總署要做調整真實狀況到底調不調"},{"start":11428.804,"end":11450.737,"text":"我跟委員報告,事實上這個案子大概卓院長已經批示了啦而且那個條新會調一級,然後他追溯到今年1月1號開始又回溯到1月1號開始起算,所以委員關心的議題事實上已經處理了所以調的幅度事實上是比照我們的政府機關公立議員的金額嗎?"},{"start":11451.297,"end":11470.136,"text":"沒有 也領外大概失業級的有調整大概接近3%左右沒有辦法 事實上整體因為公職的人員的專業加級調整幅度是只有4%所以調的那個只有再增加3%嗎"},{"start":11471.701,"end":11497.097,"text":"大概有些是3%多一點有大概3到4%之間那就要問什麼時候調整所以現在簽下來大概時間大概回溯從今年1月1號開始回溯所以這個已經是確定院長已經批示了真的很感謝也感謝我們的卓院長能夠看到我們的醫護人員尤其是學校校護有時候一個學校只有一個校護要照顧很多人"},{"start":11498.001,"end":11500.782,"text":"那所以也謝謝 那謝謝任市長 謝謝好 謝謝林月琴委員接下來請吳宗憲委員質詢謝謝 麻煩任市長請任市長"},{"start":11524.246,"end":11551.644,"text":"委員長 委員長早安今天要跟請教一下就是有關職場霸凌的部分我想去年11月3號就是台灣我們這邊鬧得蠻大的就是那個無信公務員輕生之後那其實我們國內就開始都重視這個公務員職場霸凌的一些問題那我們再看一下這幾年其實在公務員體系發生一個狀況就我自己擔任公務員公務員有24年的時間"},{"start":11554.566,"end":11578.84,"text":"那這24年前那個時候的公務員其實是金飯碗大家都很喜歡當公務員但是我們看這幾年其實發生一個狀況就是因為退休金被刪除的關係所以導致這幾年公務員的薪水也不好退休金又被刪就導致報考率一直逐年的下降那比之前少非常多"},{"start":11579.5,"end":11607.776,"text":"所以除了這個經濟部分的問題之外我想其他部分我們是不是有提供給公務員一個有保障的法規這也是一個很重要而且能夠吸引優秀的人才能當公務員的一個重要的事情我們想說前一段時間我們一直在討論說公務員不管是過勞的問題或是霸凌的問題目前我們來看公務員還是沒有辦法納入職安法的保護對不對"},{"start":11609.448,"end":11632.261,"text":"我們現在就公務人員保障法跟安慰辦法那是2月的時候保訓會那時候有開一個那個防治公務人員職場霸凌法制研修的會議那政府目前的方向我想說還是希望說把這個公部門的霸凌是放在公務員保障法的架構下面去處理就是跟職安的部分要脫鉤"},{"start":11634.283,"end":11655.863,"text":"對 我想說目前是這樣但是呢 人事總署當然啦 政府的這個想法我們是有點失望啦但是我想說人事行政總署你們總是整個政府的HR所有的機關的人事部門是由你們在掌管嘛那從這個人資的管理的專業角度"},{"start":11656.804,"end":11675.286,"text":"出發我們還是蠻希望說你們能夠發揮你們的角色能夠來適當的處理這個霸凌的問題那我想說從去年這個無姓公務員的這個事情之後其實不管是行政院 訴發部等等的公家機關都有被踢爆有很多霸凌的案子"},{"start":11676.047,"end":11694.026,"text":"那衛福部調查後也有八個案子那現在在調查之後呢其實陸陸續續都確認有霸凌的問題所以這個霸凌現在在我們的公務員體系裡面它並不是一個假議題它是一個真實存在的那我想請問人事長一個最簡單的問題霸凌的定義到底是什麼"},{"start":11695.509,"end":11715.379,"text":"霸凌它是一個持續性的一個對上對下或者下對上也有可能下對上或者同等的同仁之間長期的那種所謂的有一種歧視的一些作為歧視包含肢體還有口語的"},{"start":11716.119,"end":11730.761,"text":"所以有時候我們同仁在跟我講就是說眼影按摩的概念有的人講話就是比較沒有修飾啦就比較講得比較土一點這這樣霸凌的定義會不會過於空泛"},{"start":11732.051,"end":11747.551,"text":"事實上它因為就是definition的問題所以我們最近已經很高密度的跟保訓會在談這一些安慰辦法這一些定義因為定義要定清楚我們在執行才有一個依據嘛好"},{"start":11749.231,"end":11767.75,"text":"我想說我大概懂那個任市長的意思啦就是說很多時候當然我們自己念法律的嘛有時候法律的解釋除了是法條之外再來就是要有實際的案例再來補充嘛我想說這個我可以理解啦所以是不是說除了法律的或者是一些"},{"start":11768.891,"end":11784.423,"text":"公開的政府論述之外將來是需要有更多的案例來補充所謂的霸凌的解釋是不是我們事實上目前用最多的大概是法院的這些判決的一些案例我們是把它拿來引用"},{"start":11786.565,"end":11803.645,"text":"這個會比較客觀而且明確那我想說這可能將來是不是也要麻煩你們能夠濃縮能夠摘出一些比較重要的案例然後來解釋給國人聽因為有一些東西它的關於文字的解釋也許人民不是那麼容易懂"},{"start":11804.225,"end":11819.697,"text":"就好像說之前那個國會改革的時候我們講反諮詢然後人家問我說反諮詢呢那我們說明完定義之後我們會說接下來還是需要有案例將來來補充這個部分的說明我覺得類似我覺得法律人都這樣法條"},{"start":11821.258,"end":11841.863,"text":"再加判決判例然後來補充讓它整個完整所以我還是希望說很多東西包括霸凌的定義是什麼除了法條之外我們還要把將來可能法院上面審理或者是一些實際上面行政機關所受理的案例要把它明確化來告訴各個公務員什麼叫做霸凌"},{"start":11842.543,"end":11866.979,"text":"那有些人他被霸凌他不自知那他看了也許他就懂他會去申訴或是有一些人他會知道自己的行為不對不可以這樣對別人所以還要麻煩你們在一起我們一起努力好我們這個大概原則上就如同我剛才講的我們會reference到整個法院的一些判例還有我們公務機關最近這一兩年實際的一些案例"},{"start":11867.339,"end":11895.285,"text":"然後一個很重要的 剛才委員提的我們會把它精簡 讓一般同仁一看就看得懂那我想說 人總去年12月有提出一個霸凌女王那個嘛就他有幾個例子嘛 公務員下屬說要請商駕他就說你怎麼不讓你爸爸趕快燒一燒就好或是說有人流產 他就說你早上墮胎處理一下下午就可以來上班或是叫部署幫他"},{"start":11896.405,"end":11923.814,"text":"準備三餐 辦公室煮菜或是叫部署開車載他去做自己的事情或是把家裡的垃圾拿去辦公室叫部署處理我覺得類似像這種案例出來之後其實我們就可以告訴其他的公務員有這些例子這些一個一個案例的累積我覺得對於將來我們對於霸凌這個定義是能夠更精確因為法律總是要法律其實是要求要明確化我想那個"},{"start":11924.614,"end":11939.745,"text":"人長一定非常知道這個道理我們就只能就是將來再多給我們一些這樣的案例讓我們能夠更了解霸凌的定義到底是什麼最後這個主管當然後來是被記兩大過免職我想說這是一個好事"},{"start":11942.087,"end":11963.298,"text":"其實我覺得要不是說之前有那位無姓公務員的不幸事件其實也不會讓大家這麼重視有這個公家機關有這個問題那我自己我自己我剛剛說我當了24年的公務員那我博士班念的是公共衛生那我們也都知道其實職場職場的這個健康狀況他本來就是社會致病因子的其中一種"},{"start":11964.318,"end":11991.217,"text":"所以職場的心理衛生的狀況它本來就影響到個人的身體健康以及家庭的問題所以這塊處理好其實對家庭以及對於我們說健保也是一個好事因為它讓這個社會致病因子減少的話讓人民其實可以更健康那我再請教一下就是目前各個機關它有一些有那個霸凌申訴的評議會"},{"start":11993.459,"end":12007.695,"text":"那我看了一下六都啊六都有五都的這個評議會都有外部委員的參與但是高雄沒有但是六都以外的縣市像彰化新竹金門也都沒有剩下只有內部委員"},{"start":12008.436,"end":12035.529,"text":"那我想請問一下你們人事總署你們的相關的那個評議會都有請外部委員但是有一些地方的機關地方縣市政府並沒有那我想請教一下就是人長就這個部分你們有沒有思考去訂一個標準要求國內的各公家機關的相關評議會都能夠強制的一定要有一定比例的外部委員在裡面"},{"start":12036.189,"end":12049.793,"text":"否則我們接到的那個申訴案件我們是某一個縣市有一個申訴案件他去做霸凌的申訴就發現調查小組 申訴小組裡面的成員都是自己機關內的長官"},{"start":12051.514,"end":12068.737,"text":"那你也知道啦就是說在同一個機關內上班有時候他會不知道怎麼講啦甚至他講了以後這個霸凌者搞不好就是這個申訴委員會裡面的長官或者是長官的好朋友那這個要他怎麼處理我想請教一下你們的想法"},{"start":12069.458,"end":12094.581,"text":"我跟委員報告因為目前在包含剛才委員關心的霸凌的定義還有一些相關細節還沒有制定我們現在是通案給各個機關就是看各個地方政府或者政府機關他們自己去做一個判斷可是當這個安慰辦法修正以後這些像我們目前大概會要求三分之一都是外部委員的這個部分"},{"start":12094.941,"end":12120.215,"text":"到時候我們會直接寫進來大家有一個依詢而且相關的疑似霸凌者的這些人不予參與整個調查的一個程序剛才委員所關心的這個議題我們會在安慰辦法裡面會把它落入相關那你們可以兩個月內給我一個簡單的報告就可以嗎兩個月內不用很複雜啦給我簡單的報告告訴我你們怎麼處理這件事情"},{"start":12120.495,"end":12147.873,"text":"可以 可以 沒問題那另外還有一個東西就是因為人事總署有一個霸凌申訴平台在去年12月上線 對不對那裡面有提到用保密的方式來處理但是呢 因為這個平台要公務員具名檢舉但是你們說你們會保密那我想請教一下人總在收到這個檢舉之後是用什麼方式來進行處理或者是事後的追蹤那怎麼樣"},{"start":12149.094,"end":12164.037,"text":"可以讓這個被檢舉的那個機關不會知道是誰來檢舉的你們的做法是怎麼樣這個部分的話原則上我們各機關都會請他指定那個收件的一個窗口"},{"start":12164.838,"end":12194.444,"text":"所以我們在平台收到案件之後呢我們就會傳遞給這個機關指定的窗口由這個窗口他們去做後續的處理那在相關的處理作業上面我們也有要求機關要依循保密的原則去做後續的釐清跟調查那機關他在處理完成之後的結果他也要回到這個平台通報他處理的結果是成立不成立"},{"start":12195.044,"end":12211.05,"text":"那對於成立的案子他是給他做懲處還是調整植物還是做其他的處理在這個平台上面我們也會請他要回報到這個平台來事後的列管呢"},{"start":12211.79,"end":12235.419,"text":"事後列管我們就會在這個平台去看如果他超過期限還沒有完成的話那我們也會試著去了解是什麼原因因為事務處理上面來講的話有些機關因為剛剛人事長也有提到都要有外部委員的參與所以這個有些機關可能案子比較複雜另外也是專家學者的時間"},{"start":12236.9,"end":12253.408,"text":"因為不好booking所以這個調查的程序上面來講的話有時候處理上會稍微晚一點也會有這種情形但是不管結果怎麼樣我們那個後平台的部分我們都一定要他回報處理結果以上"},{"start":12254.948,"end":12275.137,"text":"最後幾十秒我講一下因為有很多公務員跟我們說這個申訴平台他們就覺得是很黑箱他們也不是那麼信任那是不是可以麻煩你們事後再追蹤的時候幫我們多加一項就是去問一下這個檢舉人"},{"start":12277.335,"end":12299.976,"text":"有沒有就是有人洩密或公開了他的資訊這件事情好不好我覺得這最重要喔公務員敢不敢檢舉很多人都是怕自己的身份被公開那你們可以做事後的跟他詢問有沒有這個事情然後要做個整理你才能夠再精進自己的這套系統吧我如果今天說我被霸凌了"},{"start":12301.297,"end":12320.566,"text":"但是呢我又覺得說你們把這個事情公開出去會不會有這個狀況我覺得如果是這樣的話我反而當事人他會有疑慮因為他如果說他疑是怎樣怎樣應該是他服務的機關那個調查的機關他直接又跟他回應如果"},{"start":12321.923,"end":12350.042,"text":"他一定要問這個議題的話反而會讓他覺得會再度受傷反而有其他的疑慮事情已經發生我只是說你們有說你們會做事後的追蹤那事後追蹤當然有包括到你有沒有處理好這個案子但是我只是想要知道一個點就是會不會有公務員他們擔心因為他們申訴之後他的事情被曝光出去那你們不用做最後了解一下這個狀況嗎"},{"start":12352.363,"end":12371.572,"text":"去做將來政策的微調跟委員報告就是說今天在這個平台的申訴來講即使是就是說他具名如果我們又再去問當事人說你們機關有沒有疑似洩密或是什麼其實對當事人來講可能他也會擔心說你們怎麼知道我這個案子"},{"start":12372.357,"end":12389.929,"text":"你不是居民跟他們 他們不是居民跟你檢舉嗎對 但是如果說要去瞭解每一個人他有沒有疑似被洩密這個對當事人來講的話 他也會擔心說這個是不是他已經被洩密 我們才去這樣子問他"},{"start":12391.65,"end":12414.485,"text":"所以這個部分剛剛人士想提到就是說 不然這樣好了啦 我想時間的關係啦我也不想再聽你們 因為我覺得你講的這個邏輯我聽不懂我邏輯我真的聽不懂 他今天具名跟你們檢舉你們事後問他們 每一案 通案每一案都問 而不是個案問通案都問說 你這個處理之後 你有沒有發現這個申訴小組把你資料流出去"},{"start":12415.245,"end":12442.991,"text":"你就是問這樣子而已你說會造成他心裡什麼樣 這邏輯我不懂啦我們來設計一下就是整個結案以後會讓當事人去填對這個案子的滿意度或者因為這個是公務員最在乎的有沒有被申訴單位把他的資料流出去你認為說問他這個對他什麼傷害 我聽不懂你們的邏輯啦真的好那我請你兩個月內一樣把這個申訴平台處理方式還有這個我剛剛提到的這個"},{"start":12443.911,"end":12471.832,"text":"最後能不能夠去問這個申訴者他們對於有沒有被保密這個東西的想法你們看你們要怎麼做再麻煩你們告訴我我跟你說我不是找你們麻煩我只是說聽聽看他們的想法去做政策的微調我很肯定你們的政策但是竟然有公務員跟我們講他們很怕申訴完之後被申訴機那個處理機關流出去那你就了解一下嘛如果每樣問一問之後大家都很滿意那不是更棒嗎我的邏輯只是這樣"},{"start":12472.392,"end":12475.615,"text":"好 謝謝吳宗憲委員那確實啦這個霸凌的申訴這個部分追蹤的部分那個平台再跟吳委員來做一個說明那我們早上我看這個"},{"start":12487.965,"end":12512.082,"text":"現在剩下上午的時間剩下二十幾秒而已我先來處理一下會議時間我們上午會議的時間我們就繼續進行到所有登記發言的委員巡打結束為止接下來我們有請鄭正全委員鄭正全委員不在鄭正全委員鄭正全委員不在我們接下來請吳立華委員質詢"},{"start":12520.403,"end":12543.513,"text":"謝謝主席 有請任市長這張最讚 來 請任市長委員長任市長 午安喔我今天的夜報上面有看到我們行政院人事總署非常關心有提到持續督促各機關依法足而禁用原住民及身心障礙人員特別是我們最新的數據"},{"start":12545.214,"end":12570.299,"text":"表示禁用原住民呢比率高達521%那這代表著說很多的機關單位其實都有蠻多的原住民的人員公務員在遍佈那為了代表我們的族群主流化我是希望說是不是也有做一個分類的資料就是把原住民的事務機關"},{"start":12571.759,"end":12588.714,"text":"跟非原住民的事務機關有沒有分開來的一個資料讓我們可以了解到目前這個族群主流化有沒有深入到我們全國各個行政機關那這是第一個那那個人事長我其實今天來是要幫忙關心園民會"},{"start":12590.195,"end":12615.587,"text":"因為園民會 您應該很清楚它的業務包山包海不僅僅是從山上到海邊它還有教育的 文化的 內政的 地政的 社福的包括經濟 衛生 福利 甚至速發 它都有關心就只缺一個國防部 可以說是一個小內閣那以它的這個編制員額不到200人來講"},{"start":12617.228,"end":12639.053,"text":"其實我們會替他很擔心因為這個機器很龐大遍佈全國所以呢 原民會其實對我們來講真的是我們最重要最高的一個原住民事務機關他很需要人力但是 任市長您應該很清楚我們前陣子 宣騰一時的"},{"start":12640.293,"end":12666.533,"text":"就是原民會狠狠的被砍了百分之七的一個人力那就是16個族群委員被砍掉 您知道嗎我知道 所以你們有提41個人的爭言是 所以我要提的就是說當時我看到原民會的官網還大剌剌的PO了一個文章叫做原住民族權益不容踐踏"},{"start":12667.734,"end":12681.699,"text":"上面還特別提到減少本會編制傷害自治發展等等然後提到說制度可以檢討體制可以革新但不歡迎這種報復式的修法那我們都很清楚確實"},{"start":12683.36,"end":12699.932,"text":"我們整個看起來就是為了要來癱瘓為了要毀憲亂政 不容易執政那現在我講一句實在話 原民會還表達他的立場咧他還說他要復議 要來申請釋憲 絕對不容許那請教一下任市長 原民會有這樣子做嗎那我跟您講 我看起來是沒有"},{"start":12712.472,"end":12734.766,"text":"沒有所以我們希望說這個部分我們總是還是要走我們希望我們的機關能夠正常所以我在這邊就是特別要提到少了這些人力光是我們的文件站全國有580多個未來可能會增加到七八百個"},{"start":12735.586,"end":12751.696,"text":"以前這些業務包括原家中心很多很多遍布在全國各地的業務都要有人去視察去輔導但是硬生生被砍了所以我想這個部分我希望人事長您能夠支持好不好"},{"start":12753.217,"end":12773.775,"text":"那個我們在2月27要收到延民會來的請證延合的需求事實上最近我們都很高密度的跟曾主委還有杜章副主委三位副主委在談這個整個人力需求基本上我們會分階段來和給市長的一個所以任市長您會支持對不對"},{"start":12775.035,"end":12799.822,"text":"我們會核實 因為我們還要會相關機關的意見那另外我也是要提到 原民會長期以來的困境就是留不住人 您要知道 我們很多原特考進來的他如果分發在原民會 分發在渡會地區他們滿了三年 滿了六年 三年他們會先回鄉 然後滿六年"},{"start":12801.102,"end":12827.561,"text":"他們更希望的是去有原鄉家籍 山地家籍的地方服務這個你應該很清楚所以我先請教一下 就沒有誘因嘛所以如果說我們反過來講對於這些我們要培育的原住民的這些事務官有可能給他們生活家籍嗎在都會地區的生活津貼嗎有可能嗎"},{"start":12831.352,"end":12838.861,"text":"這個議題是不是允許我們整體去考量因為他們光是住在都會地區一萬五以上就沒了他們滿三年都急著趕快回去"},{"start":12840.138,"end":12866.898,"text":"因為我跟原住民朋友非常熟 是所以我想跟人事長說如果可以最好但是還有一個方法就是有沒有辦法給園民會更多的員額而且是中高階的員額讓他們有一個升遷的管道至少他會留在園民會至少他為了要升遷他至少會留個十年以上"},{"start":12867.899,"end":12885.596,"text":"就流動率就不會那麼高我坦白跟委員講齁我接任市長之後在台東縣的人事處長跟花蓮縣人事處長都是用原住民的同胞一個是布農族一個是台灣族不是"},{"start":12888.451,"end":12900.041,"text":"我是非常重視這個區塊不是用嘴巴講我是用行動那花蓮還有一個檢任的職缺也是請原住民的同胞來謝謝那現在園民會呢"},{"start":12901.755,"end":12925.026,"text":"原民會他本身我們長期就跟他配合的非常好所以我們增加員額然後我希望這個員額你至少給他們例如像7到9值等多一點因為他們回到原鄉鄉公署服務沒有什麼值等這個是官規官制我不能隨便答應你而且能力的增補我們也要會行政院相關單位那委員的"},{"start":12926.189,"end":12951.709,"text":"意見我聽進去了好 謝謝任市長那這個部分就拜託您了那另外一個部分就是簡單的跟您提一下我也想聽聽看您的專業建議因為原民特考大家都知道長年它的開缺數跟它的分發人數有很大的一個落差這個您應該很清楚對不對所以大家也都在檢討所以我舉個例子"},{"start":12953.33,"end":12977.767,"text":"現在我們有原住民族語言發展法上面他說要有語推人員但是我們用專案處理例如我們的幼教照顧法他有提到互助中心的族語教保員但是我們用專案計畫處理例如我們現在推動的長照它上面呢文件站的造福員也是用專案計畫處理我的意思是說其實還有很多的例子可以舉"},{"start":12978.667,"end":12999.999,"text":"有沒有可能 既然這些是長期的計畫而且是未來社會發展所需要的一個長期的人力任市長 您覺得有沒有可能增加這一些類別考科我想我們再來跟研民會好好來溝通這一塊的所以您覺得 您可以提供專業的建議我們怎麼樣導向對不對"},{"start":13002.882,"end":13014.488,"text":"我會跟顏明慧一起來討論好 那就希望我們任總這邊就是經過今天這樣的一個質詢也能夠先給我在兩個禮拜內 先給一份告報告可以嗎好 OK好 謝謝 謝謝任市長 謝謝主席好 謝謝吳立華委員接下來請岳元之 岳元之委員岳元之 岳元之委員不在洪孟凱委員質詢"},{"start":13038.26,"end":13038.801,"text":"主席謝謝 麻煩請蘇人事長請人事長"},{"start":13044.201,"end":13070.647,"text":"委員午安 委員市長午安今天是3月20號是郵政節本席剛10點去參加中華郵政的慶祝大會但是郵政節最近我們看到中華郵政的員工居然兩萬四千名都收到通知引發部分的員工不滿表達拒簽主要是說是要被要求說要簽署所謂的未在大陸涉及的拒絕書"},{"start":13072.487,"end":13089.656,"text":"請教人事長,您知道說這個是屬於中華郵政單一個案還是我們國營事業都有被要求?有針對中華郵政嗎?我們是轉公文給交通部,當然是交通部轉的所以是交通部轉,那你們有要求說國營事業也應該要簽拒絕書嗎?"},{"start":13094.656,"end":13111.877,"text":"他現在是一個階段性的主要是以軍公教核心能力先填這個國營事業員工是算軍公教人員他應該是算因為他裡面有些是算事業員工是用什麼樣的法"},{"start":13112.962,"end":13128.591,"text":"勞基法還是軍公校人員它裡面有些是運用公務人員護法,有些是用勞基法是,但主要是適用勞基法如果水桶移轉呢,它也是適用公務人員的規定有多少比例這個我要查一下"},{"start":13131.075,"end":13151.414,"text":"我們現在所謂的這個現行國營事業不管是糖店、油水、郵政等相關不管是交通部所屬、經濟部所屬大部分的員工都適用勞基法那我現在這樣請教是說這一個拒絕書到底我們的這個所謂的命令或是我們的行政教練法源依據在哪邊"},{"start":13153.728,"end":13167.239,"text":"你剛有提到是說是人事總署轉給我們的交通部那交通部 你有要求交通部再轉下去沒有啊 交通部收到以後他們就會自己去處理啊所以是交通部的問題 不是你人事總署的問題"},{"start":13169.178,"end":13197.693,"text":"目前第一個階段我們理解的大概以軍公教這是是嗎 你講是軍公教嘛但是交通部他可能廓宜事業 因為真的有可能以所詳的廓宜事業他順便也轉下去因為有剛才委員提的交通部嘛 經濟部嘛還有財政部嘛 研究院嘛本席就看到因為國營事業員工並不是公務人員嘛適用的是勞基法就業服務法或勞基法相關規定僱主不能要求員工"},{"start":13198.433,"end":13217.493,"text":"提供非所屬就業所需的隱私資料那這點 我覺得這也不是隱私資料啊這不是隱私資料嗎要不然你問說有一些相關的規定這個欄位事實上也是很簡單也沒有跟什麼隱私有關而且他也沒有"},{"start":13218.632,"end":13242.535,"text":"你如果不填也沒有處罰啊不填也沒有處罰是因為收到拒絕書之後大家有些員工嘩然反彈為什麼會現在在這時候要簽這個拒絕書也因此才會有單位出來講是說不填沒有關係但是今天當一個上級長官發了一個公文要求所有員工都填的時候你認為有員工敢不填嗎"},{"start":13243.836,"end":13257.988,"text":"這不是慣老闆的心態嗎我現在老闆要你做什麼你員工就是下屬你員工就是反正聽我的就對了幾十年前或許會這樣可是現在年輕人的想法跟我們以前的想法會不一樣"},{"start":13259.107,"end":13269.795,"text":"他可能是覺得我根本不需要填 為什麼我要填是啊 那為什麼要發所以現在是說慣老百姓九字一條 全國適用人事長 我先再請教我們現在的現行規定國營事業是不是已經禁止雙重國籍"},{"start":13279.868,"end":13298.987,"text":"國營事業你如果是管理階層的事啊本來依規定國人就不能在中國大陸涉及否則就會註銷台灣身份證嘛對啊這就是法令上的規定啊所以現在入取的國營事業的員工是不是本來就已經沒有他只有台灣身份證嘛"},{"start":13300.154,"end":13320.308,"text":"如果說他有中國大陸的設計的話他早就被註銷了根本不可能入局啊所以你現在是在配合政府當入局的時候他沒有對方的可是過去這幾年來可能他服務10年20年這期間他有去入局我們會做一個普查的概念"},{"start":13321.209,"end":13339.847,"text":"所以現在您承認現在是做普查的概念所以你現在就是承認在探尋隱私做普查的概念但是你的法源依據沒有錯 軍公教我剛剛開宗明義就說我沒有在討論軍公教嘛我現在討論的是國營事業是不是適用你的相關法令嘛"},{"start":13341.431,"end":13359.38,"text":"有嗎國營事業的員工是勞基法除非你修法提出來修法讓國人知道說現在連國營事業只要是用勞基法的甚至未來可能你如果說勞基法要修法的話那私人企業也都要拒絕啊也都要拒絕"},{"start":13360.681,"end":13388.943,"text":"國營事業裡面有很多人是公監了尤其在管理階層的我們當然是要求...多少比例你剛剛沒有講清楚但大部分國營事業現在就是沒有公務人員的身份嘛報告委員 那個批論我們請你一個人上去給你好不好所以 人事長您站在人事的角度本席為什麼會提出來重點在於是您站在人事的角度您應該是要保障的是我們所有員工的權益"},{"start":13390.114,"end":13414.431,"text":"保障的是我們所有不管是公教人員不管是我們國營事業人員員工的權益不是嗎來 任市長我再請教一下上午我知道你有答詢的時候已經有接收到說勞動節你認為是說可以由全國統一放假是不是我不反對這樣的一個open discussion"},{"start":13415.393,"end":13427.896,"text":"不反對這樣的一個公開討論對對不對那但是在前兩天內政委員會在做這個討論修法的時候我們人事總署的意見是什麼"},{"start":13430.879,"end":13450.106,"text":"那一天沒有問我們意見啊有啊我們有書面報告書面報告你忘了看是不是當然有啊 那一天問了好幾個部會教育部 國防部 人事總署都有啊一定是尊重主管機關所以你是尊重嘛 你不反對你沒有把你不反對寫出來嘛"},{"start":13451.647,"end":13464.852,"text":"我再來請教因為你去年九月有回應是說統一放假是取決於內政部是否修改相關的辦法人事總署再加以調整但是你會跟內政部溝通啊"},{"start":13465.697,"end":13494.977,"text":"那既然現在勞動節五一其實從2016年前蔡英文總統她宣誓就說全國應該要有一致性的時候我們很多的民進黨的委員有提案啊要五一勞動節應該全體放假第九屆有這樣的提案第十屆有這樣的提案到第十一屆現在有好幾個委員的版本那我想請教人事總處人事長有沒有再積極的跟我們內政部來溝通"},{"start":13497.718,"end":13520.249,"text":"是不是已站在全國休假一致性避免造成困擾的一個情況下我相信過去這幾年你應該有接收到很多我們公教人員對你的反應對你的陳情 對你的拜託認為說五一勞動節是不是有機會能夠全國一致適用沒有 我沒有接到我們同仁因為我們同仁沒有跟我提這樣"},{"start":13521.26,"end":13549.878,"text":"任市長 如果你講這樣的話我就覺得你真的是活在雲端啊你跟基層的員工距離太遠了你既然可以這樣子講代表你跟基層的員工距離太遠了你活在雲端 你活在辦公室你沒有接收到我們全國廣大軍公教人員的心聲我感到非常失望 謝謝好 謝謝黃孟楷委員的質詢好 那接下來我們請徐欣盈委員質詢"},{"start":13556.824,"end":13573.914,"text":"謝謝主席 本席請蘇俊榮人事長請人事長委員午安人事長好 今天本席想跟你就教在AI時代來臨了 您有感受到嗎"},{"start":13575.236,"end":13592.715,"text":"有啊那準備了嗎很強烈那整個我們行政部門面對AI時代來臨有沒有任何的準備我跟委員報告在上一年的6月6號我們就簽成行政院院長也批示了我們就啟動公務機關的"},{"start":13594.797,"end":13614.159,"text":"一個人工智慧的一個導入的一個計畫然後我們也分好幾個梯次招訓了所有的部會首長還有次長還有機關首長甚至司長、次長這是屬於High Level的部分我們有辦Training再來我們上一年也辦了一個梯次的總值班就是針對90等的科長"},{"start":13616.121,"end":13633.928,"text":"就是三天兩夜然後考上完課以後他要去考照上第一梯是36個人其中有33位有拿到那個AIA的一個AI人工智慧的一個認證那我們為了讓更多的公務同仁可以上網去學習我們總共開了180"},{"start":13637.869,"end":13660.757,"text":"一個小時的課程 那累積到現在大概49萬5千人有去上課那今年我們預計會再開五個班級的那一種核心種植人員的一個訓練大概每一梯是36 五個梯是大概會培訓180位喔 非常好耶本席有聽到你們一直在做準備 而且開始訓練了"},{"start":13662.099,"end":13686.617,"text":"那您知道進入AI時代它很大的一個特性是什麼嗎或是就你了解AI的最大的特性它帶來了很多的機會當然它也有一些風險不是它帶來機會你要發展AI你很重要的準備是什麼你除了訓練人員你本身我覺得人才是最重要啊當然"},{"start":13689.439,"end":13706.786,"text":"也會牽涉到所謂的算力啦有一些算力的部分不過這個部分你指的是大量的計算嗎大量的計算那好 OK OK 非常好那現在我們公部門有一個情況就是可能資料開放不足會限制AI發展因為"},{"start":13707.786,"end":13727.924,"text":"也要用AI 我相信您剛剛雖然沒有講但是未來AI怎麼協助我們公部門它有大量的數據可以提供我們做決策而且更有效率那所以首先它必須也要有大量的數據所以我們在公部門的部分我們要提供的各種相關數據這一塊有共識嗎"},{"start":13730.505,"end":13759.629,"text":"所以國科會他們有國科會有發展所謂的泰德泰德的這個大型遺言模型LLM那現在持續在精進那當然委員提的這個部分我們也面臨到如何去鼓勵更多政府機關把他的資料把它拋出來直接再進到因為你的資料的模型的數量越多的時候你在AI使用上的精準度效果會更好"},{"start":13760.529,"end":13784.275,"text":"對我們希望能夠有資料共享所以我相信任市長您認同我非常認同對你非常認同那很好那我們未來是不是好好來推動那整個的政府治理我們希望能夠提升行政效率AI它也可以幫助我們優化一些政策還有一些公共管理所以資料共享的這一塊"},{"start":13785.895,"end":13801.484,"text":"有在進行嗎資料共享的部分 事實上我最近有跟樹化部黃部長提過三次如何去引導鼓勵政府機關願意把資料放出來因為有些機關對資料放出來會比較保守"},{"start":13806.028,"end":13827.05,"text":"因為有很多像財政數據、交通數據甚至我們的醫療數據這一塊我們既然人事長都有這樣的想法我們希望可以往這個方向再來就是AI是不是有目標未來會不會導入這種績效考核機制"},{"start":13827.987,"end":13857.107,"text":"你們有開始炒車方案來討論或是推動了嗎我跟委員報告以人種來講我們第一個就是人事法規因為人事法規有時候也比較複雜心境當然也比較不清楚所以我們從上一年就開始導入人工智慧就是在人事法規的一個應用那上一年我們又導入了會議紀錄產生器就開完會以後大概半個小時你們那個軟硬體都有啦軟硬體都已經建置啦"},{"start":13857.327,"end":13866.114,"text":"我坦白講喔 這一些還好啦沒有花那麼大的費用這個確實它需要一些軟硬體"},{"start":13868.261,"end":13894.868,"text":"我們勉強在既有的資訊預算雖然被砍了很多可是我們還是要擠一點因為對國家整體競爭力還有行政效率提升有關我們還是要努力所以我們希望AI未來納入整個績效的考核機制可以讓各部門導入AI之後行政作業時間看可不可以縮短然後服務滿意度可以來提升甚至成本降低"},{"start":13895.328,"end":13913.592,"text":"這是我們努力的方向本席今天特別在這邊質詢也就是希望說您可以朝這個方向我們未來行政部門的效率還有進入AI時代我們的行政院團隊就是AI智慧行動團隊所以希望您能夠大力的來促成好不好"},{"start":13913.912,"end":13942.001,"text":"這些事情都放在心上要付諸行動我剛才跟委員報告了就是從上一年12月開始我們就開始啟動各個不同階段的一個導入的一個計畫對那我最後講的整個未來的績效考核各方面還有那個變名錄希望下一次您再來報告的時候我們應該可以就更進一步來做了解好不好可以可以好謝謝"},{"start":13944.142,"end":13967.683,"text":"好 謝謝習俊宇委員好 叫你點名所有登記發言委員都已發言完畢我們訊打結束那委員質詢的時候要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會那我們本次會議進行到此結束現在散會 謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"159492","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159492","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0955df7e4bb94930a01b4bb3d6676f3fd30d2cd94d4d2e021c2cb998dec49867b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"13:09:51 - 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請官員移去被執行這是時間的限制所以我想說先準備著那之後可能彭處長或許某種程度會麻煩您好"},{"start":25.403,"end":50.378,"text":"次長你好委員好我們在今天這個學校公餐法的這樣一個議題裡面許多委員都提出了營養午餐的這個相關法案那我們知道在年報告裡面也說這個學校衛生法已經有做了一些規範可是如果在這樣的情況下大家都有這樣子的關心我想裡面點出了一個問題就是人力短缺經費不足還有公餐的品質參差不齊的問題"},{"start":51.138,"end":78.233,"text":"那當然很多人都依據了這個監察院所提的一個報告那審計部 抱歉 這個審計部這邊所提到一個報告2019到2024都有這樣子的一個狀況那您在剛才回應我也一直聽到對專法的各項的一個評論那本席在這邊就直接問如果您剛才講的那一些考慮的要素都沒有的話您對專法的支持度 您的態度是如何"},{"start":78.813,"end":101.884,"text":"專訪的精神我們都支持所以精神上您支持現在我們有一些要討論的部分接下來本席就討論一下營養午餐的補助還有財務方面的一個議題其實我們現在營養午餐的政策比較已經有狀況的就是經費補助的不穩定性根據教育部的報告目前很穩定"},{"start":103.184,"end":114.998,"text":"您覺得很穩定嗎那我想這個很重要的一個問題就是說中央跟地方那本席這邊要提到一個問題就是說那目前您的補助大概在74億左右如果我的資料這邊是對的那當然未來你們要討論這個中央跟地方"},{"start":119.142,"end":138.693,"text":"我這邊要先提出一個問題很重要的是那全台22個縣市10個縣市提供免費營養午餐那其他縣市要收費那許多偏鄉地區經費就已經不足了只能提供冷便當或者是低價的團餐那這樣子的公餐品質對於偏鄉的學童其實有一些不太公平"},{"start":139.353,"end":156.639,"text":"早上在你們的這個討論內容裡面我一直聽到了北英女建築等等那請市長您可以稍微再關注一下這個偏鄉的狀況目前偏鄉的中央廚房歷屆以來補助六十多億現在每年補助它包括交通費包括運作費用"},{"start":158.171,"end":174.305,"text":"已經21億那您有講到目前補助的經費所以我們有沒有考慮提供最低營養午餐的經費讓學童的健康及安全有一些保障我們今天其實一直在談就是說我們都願意可是這個經費在裁判法之後"},{"start":177.828,"end":183.413,"text":"你一直提到財化法嘛 我們就目前的這個狀況市長 我沒有跟你提財化法的任何問題但我們受到財化法的影響是事實未來的經費分擔確實是事實我覺得這個不能不談 謝謝那我們就談現在遭遇的這個問題剛才本席也聽到前面委員談到營養師那還有一個很重要的問題本席這邊要談到儲供"},{"start":201.967,"end":215.613,"text":"所以一個根本的問題就是人力的問題那這個監察院的相關報告其實也談到每位營養師要監督目前您剛才也講到全國有500位公職的這個營養師但是每一位營養師要監督的是3600份午餐點每一位營養師縣市要"},{"start":222.296,"end":240.371,"text":"負擔八千名學生這你覺得顧得好嗎你的數字 那個委員你的數字可能會有點問題那你提供給我囉好 我們剛才其實報告裡面報告一百一十四年度我們法定應該聘的是四百七十四好 法定嘛你們都聘完了嗎實際聘的是聘六百八十一還有專案經理人一百人所以現在有七百八十一人"},{"start":240.831,"end":255.158,"text":"那我們的布板修法裡面希望550人一人我們班級人數不太一定以550人為基準的話大概會增加兩億七千多萬我們在布的精神是支持的好 精神上支持嘛那你們一直講財化法那我們就財化法見了好不好那"},{"start":258.419,"end":272.225,"text":"本席這邊很重要的就是說偏鄉剛才一直講到偏鄉我們不希望你們在處理未來的問題本席今天都沒有跟你談到財化法你自己把本席帶進這個世界所以本席不接受我們在講基本的這個問題在偏鄉未來再考慮到各縣市的財政希望教育部正視這個問題我們不希望"},{"start":281.26,"end":302.746,"text":"偏鄉或者是財力比較差的縣市在這個部分受到權益上的不公平那這重要的地方要一起來努力喔好那我們加油好最後運動部本席這邊跟你們提醒幾個問題整個運動產業發展條例我們希望這個會期是很重要的一個優先法案"},{"start":303.226,"end":320.632,"text":"但是目前在大家所提的内容上都以租税优惠为主但是我相信府院我们都在讨论如何推动产业化所以我们在除了调整租税优惠那在产业发展的一个长期目标上你们有没有什么做法那个来 署长"},{"start":322.913,"end":338.309,"text":"報委員我想運動產業我們面臨一個最主要的問題就是我們的消費人口規律運動人口的確是不夠多所以我們的產業才會在停滯所以我們目前按照總統的這樣一個政見競技運動全民化往這個方向我們來提出提升民眾參與擴大全民運動的一個基本盤"},{"start":340.051,"end":349.554,"text":"好的 署長我知道在私下跟您的交流當中其實您對於推動全民或者是用俱樂部或某一些跟內容相關的全民化我想您有很認真的在做但是本席這邊談到產業化那也希望在你這個方向上能夠有更大的一個作為最後提醒兩點"},{"start":363.059,"end":380.118,"text":"運動經濟的規劃跟本席從一來就談到單項協會的問題本席今天因為受限時間在這邊不多談但是單項協會如何在我們全民體育跟產業化的過程當中能夠有很好的一個功能這個是我們其實要處理的"},{"start":380.578,"end":394.13,"text":"那另外運動競技的證照制度還有資格考核的一致性公平性這個本席在這邊先做提醒那未來我會方法我們會入案好不好OK好謝謝謝謝林倩琴委員的資訊請官員請回座接著繼續進行質詢請鄭天才委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"16534","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16534","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d4f190e5fa5d6a823e22f0a91eeef05037692a6bdb7e2f09fba9884bfa0d7b8555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 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第三位徐巧欣委員好 第四位楊瓊英委員好 那我們其次介紹與會官員我們非常謝謝教育部政務次長張廖萬堅次長張廖次長教育部國民及學前教育署署長彭復原彭署長教育部體育署署長鄭世忠鄭署長"},{"start":1928.871,"end":1956.715,"text":"教育部綜合規劃師副司長張金淑副司長教育部高等教育師曾興源副司長教育部技術級職業教育師專門委員陳玉君專委教育部中生教育師副司長顏寶月顏副司長教育部國際級兩岸教育師代理副司長藍仙倩代理副司長教育部師資培育級藝術教育師副司長王淑娟副司長"},{"start":1958.991,"end":1975.984,"text":"教育部資訊及科技教育師副司長 邱仁傑 邱副司長教育部學生事務及特殊教育師副司長 許家倩 許副司長教育部秘書處副處長 李啟光 李副處長教育部人事處 黃鴻鈞副處長"},{"start":1979.52,"end":1998.176,"text":"教育部會計處吳清潭副處長教育部法制處汪康定代理副處長教育部青年發展署副署長堪益聰副署長陳益聰抱歉農業部農糧署副署長黃昭興副署長農業部農糧署專門委員張瓊麟農業部畜牧師簡任繼政"},{"start":2009.369,"end":2015.83,"text":"逢逢逢一月嘛"},{"start":2016.792,"end":2038.498,"text":"月嗎好 不好意思逢一月 檢任繼政農業部漁業署鄭淑文檢任繼政衛生福利部衛福部食品藥物管理署副署長林金富副署長衛生福利部國民健康署研究員黃巧文研究員經濟部國際貿易署副署長鄭月婷副署長謝謝"},{"start":2040.612,"end":2044.234,"text":"好那我們也介紹我們也有另外一位委員到現場王宏威委員謝謝"},{"start":2059.787,"end":2086.116,"text":"好 那我們就現在先請提案委員進行提案說明那首先我們請洪孟楷委員進行提案說明謝謝主席各位委員以及在場的官員大家好本席針對學校公參法以及運動產業發展條例綜合作提案說明首先學校公參法"},{"start":2086.96,"end":2112.669,"text":"我國高中以下的學校飲食供應辦理情形從過去到現在大部分都辦理良好但還是存在少部分的食材安全營養不均餐費落差的情況也因此嚴重影響學生跟校園飲食的基本權益雖然現在現行的學校衛生法部分條文是已經有規範但僅做原則性的規範"},{"start":2114.338,"end":2136.212,"text":"對於我們所需要在另推的專法要符合當今學校飲食跟營養教育所需並且參考日本的學校給食給食法的立法宗旨學校飲食不僅是限於營養午餐的供給更應該兼具營養健康跟教育的目的也因此我們提出來"},{"start":2137.293,"end":2166.596,"text":"符合聯合國所提出的永續發展目標的指標讓我們的學生跟學校都能夠一起來訂立相關的專法而其中本席所提出來的學校公參法的專法包括實施對象中央地方的政府權責學校應該遵循的事項營養師等人員職長分工及合理的配置對於學生的飲食指導及營養教育以及學生作為資源使用者的政策參與"},{"start":2167.516,"end":2183.659,"text":"與全都能夠來健全期待能夠有完整的學校公餐體系未來我們也希望在召委的排審跟教育文化委員會大家共同的討論之下教育部能夠儘速的推出院版而"},{"start":2185.357,"end":2210.763,"text":"對於我們的學校營養午餐長久來看還是需要透過專法來保障經費穩定提升食品的安全促進營養的均衡以及強化監督的機制將環境永續跟食農教育都一起納入發展目標才能夠真真正正的確保每一個學生都獲得健康安全以及符合需求的營養餐食"},{"start":2212.56,"end":2238.803,"text":"在運動產業發展條例第24條及26條的條文修正裡面本席也看到過去在2021年曾經運動產業發展條例增訂26支2條有關營業事業捐贈職業或業餘運動的重點賽事的相關稅優惠的措施但是仍有不足之處尤其是已經經過了三年的時間我們更希望能夠來做進一步的強化"},{"start":2239.904,"end":2260.166,"text":"讓當初立法修法的美意不要打折因此本席提出鼓勵運動事業舉辦運動賽事或活動增加民眾參觀從事參觀性或參與性運動消費支出在24條之一明訂運動事業符合本條規定者請門票收入可免徵營業稅"},{"start":2261.667,"end":2276.225,"text":"另外在26條增訂第一項第六款明定營利事業推行促進全民運動發展的賽事或活動能夠不受金額的限制本次提案的修法鼓勵運動事業及民間團體多舉辦"},{"start":2280.24,"end":2296.569,"text":"運動賽事或是活動促進民眾觀賽的意願以及動機同時也給予運動員支持及關注進而營造運動產業良好的經營環境最終打造全民運動的正向循環而在運動產業發展條例本席很樂見"},{"start":2298.769,"end":2312.569,"text":"教育部已經有針對這個說明做出了正向的回應並且也說明行政院已經將運動產業發展條例修正案列為本會期的優先法案也因此我們期待能夠跟"},{"start":2314.136,"end":2338.664,"text":"行政部門立法部門大家共同的努力在這個會期裡面就能夠做出運動產業發展條例的修正讓我們的運動產業更加健全完整也展現政府的態度用實際的行動來支持我們的運動產業以上謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員提案說明接下來我們請王育民委員提案說明"},{"start":2344.673,"end":2369.06,"text":"謝謝主席今天安排學校公餐法法案的一個討論大家都知道我們全國的學童每一天很重要的營養午餐在學校裡面吃但是這一餐吃的是不是營養吃的是不是安全所有的家長都非常的關心今天有這麼多的委員提出學校公餐法"},{"start":2369.5,"end":2388.411,"text":"就代表這件事情其實是大家高度矚目的那本席這邊也提出了學校公餐法的專法主要是我看到我們現在現行的營養午餐還存在著許多的問題需要解決第一個其實我們在調查方面發現全國每一個月公餐的熱量有發生超過930大卡情形的有高達46%"},{"start":2397.597,"end":2417.463,"text":"前一陣子呢大家還發現小朋友吃的銀絲捲竟然捏出來通通都是油所以熱量超標這樣的情況需要把關第二個我們學校是食物中毒場所的第二名那所以過去都有一些的食安事件讓我們發現學校的食品衛生管理應該要有一個全國的專法好好的來把關第三個"},{"start":2425.225,"end":2441.291,"text":"像這個之前的蘇丹紅事件他四處流竄然後進到校園那就可以看到全國的縣市他們採取的標準是不一致的像在嘉義縣的教育局他就說這個蘇丹紅絕對不會流進我們學校結果馬上被打臉了這個實務已經流入校園那有的學校就比較積極採取事先預防的措施所以像這樣子這個全國不一致的情況"},{"start":2453.635,"end":2481.728,"text":"也應該透過一個中央的專法來給一個全面性的規範那所以這次本席提出來的學校公餐法總共有7張30條那這裡面比較重要的是我們應該要訂定專責單位制定公餐的規範而且應該要定期召開會議我們來做相關的這樣的一個孩子飲食的一個把關那第二個呢是我們必須建立食安的標準"},{"start":2483.189,"end":2487.551,"text":"而且讓這些人員可以定期的去研習進修來維持我們營養午餐的品質那第三個是我們賦予主管機關有這個稽查的權利去落實監督那如果有一些業者他是不合格的一個情況的話那就賦予公權利可以直接介入跟處罰"},{"start":2508.058,"end":2526.851,"text":"那第四個是長期來我關心弱勢學童的權益那這個學校午餐是弱勢學童一天當中最重要的一餐所以呢這個部分我們應該就是要建立起一個一致性的標準我們透過營養午餐我們供應這一些弱勢學生"},{"start":2527.952,"end":2551.92,"text":"在這個特別是偏鄉跟弱勢離島的這些孩子上面讓他們在營養午餐的費用的補助就是可以全部免費讓弱勢的孩子可以安心的在學校吃午餐那我們可以看到像日本跟韓國事實上他們都在幾十年前日本是在1954年早就有中央專法韓國在1981年就有中央專法比台灣"},{"start":2556.482,"end":2585.091,"text":"找了非常非常的多那雖然教育部之前有訂定這樣子的一個規範但它一直都不是一個中央的專法所以把它提升到一個中央的位階讓全國有一致性的標準然後讓我們的所有學校營養午餐的安全跟營養可以更加的落實我覺得這個是一個重要的工程所以希望透過這一次的修法我們可以提供給孩子一個既營養"},{"start":2586.451,"end":2589.414,"text":"又安全又健康的營養午餐以上謝謝"},{"start":2618.501,"end":2640.169,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天也是針對兒童食品安全公參法進行提案說明首先我們要講這個公參法其實大家已經關注很久包含教育部送了很久但是到現在都沒有院版變成是我們立法委員要自己來提案"},{"start":2640.689,"end":2654.625,"text":"但是跟過去的這個方式好像有所不同那我國經歷過重大的這麼多食安事件那新聞版面上都有報那引發國人對飲食品質的重視"},{"start":2655.646,"end":2676.429,"text":"那學校的家長呢也都很緊張餐點的品質食品的來源以及營養是否均衡都讓大家呢覺得很憂心那所以呢這些原則我們希望呢本來是略定於校園衛生法當中但是呢因為各地方政府自行自定"},{"start":2676.989,"end":2693.195,"text":"然后呢各地的财政状况跟城乡的民行不同那所以呢在这种多头马车的没有单一法源的适用之下呢第一线的执行单位其实会有无所依循产生很多权责不清的现象"},{"start":2693.835,"end":2717.113,"text":"所以學校共餐當然是學生他個人必要的使用事項用餐費也是屬於代辦代收費用但我們在檢視學生在校救援的生活作息這個一定是必然應該把它視為受教權的一項而且在少子化現象來說我們更應該要重視受教品質的提升"},{"start":2717.913,"end":2738.802,"text":"所以呢例如鄰近國家日本早在1945年韓國在1981年就已經制定了學校的幾十法為學童來做把關那考量學校的共餐由於一般的食品業者那我想呢應該有幾項是我們呢在學校營養午餐共餐法裡面必須要修訂的"},{"start":2740.063,"end":2753.059,"text":"所謂第一個是12年國教的涵蓋我們應該要把國小、國中、高中那教育部本來規劃的是9年國教可是現在我們已經是12年國教了所以學齡前教育的樣態也應該要把這個12年國教一起來納入"},{"start":2758.425,"end":2784.753,"text":"第二點呢是我們應該要建立公餐食材的採購平台那由農業部來主導然後我們呢透過這個食材的採購平台集貨配送那有安全的食品檢測機制並且簡化學校採購食材的行政程序那確保學校公餐的國產在地食材可以穩定提供那這一部分當然也需要教育部一起來配合"},{"start":2785.613,"end":2812.931,"text":"第三点我们应该要在学校里面设置营养师并且定定师生比因为我们发现在学校里面很多时候我们学生吃的东西我去翻过很多所学校他们所提供的午餐其实健康度来说都不是很高盐分经常有过高的情形还有他们的食物来说的话其实你说以营养师的角度来说"},{"start":2815.993,"end":2838.848,"text":"那我們都知道一個人在從小的食物對他的習慣對他這一生來說的健康都有很大的影響比方說像有一些小朋友從小現在爸媽有觀念就給他吃少糖少鹽然後少油炸的這個清淡的飲食跟健康的飲食你會發現等到他開始上學之後他會習慣用這樣子的飲食"},{"start":2843.911,"end":2869.194,"text":"那對他未來長久的教育發展來說甚至他長大成人來說都會能夠保持的比較健康所以這12年國教當中呢我們建議參考日本的營養師編制基準學生數超過500名的學生學校應該要增設營養師的職位不足500人的學校由地方的教育局來分配跨校的應聘"},{"start":2869.774,"end":2896.205,"text":"那營養師不只是幫忙計算審查每餐的營養所需那飲食的教育推動特殊的個案也可以在校園當中即刻的介入那還有呢廚工與工餐比數這個人數的比例定定我們工餐的品質跟廚工的多寡有密不可分的關係日本來講的話他們的校園廚工跟學生的比例大概是1比80到100"},{"start":2898.166,"end":2912.706,"text":"那考量到國人人口老化的現象跟衝擊勞動力的市場其實我們可以逐步訂定這個提高除工的人數讓除工的人數以1比100為最終的目標"},{"start":2915.049,"end":2932.175,"text":"我們看到日本的人口老化非常嚴重但他們都可以做到所以台灣也一定可以最後一項就是中央專責督導專業並且督導單位並且要聯合的來稽查提高我們學子的重視他的食安層級"},{"start":2933.215,"end":2959.165,"text":"教育部我建議應該要設置專責的單位負責管理跟督導學校辦理公餐的行政業務並且明定每學年至少一次會同衛生農業單位定期針對校園公餐環境安全衛生以及他們在所謂的標案的時候是否有貪污舞弊的行刑進行一個規範跟抽查"},{"start":2959.685,"end":2974.377,"text":"那這就是我們在學校營養五餐法飲食共餐法裡面主要我們來提供的一個幾個四項的五項的方案那也希望中央能夠採納謝謝大家謝謝許巧欣委員接下來有請楊瓊英委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2984.924,"end":2985.164,"text":"梁美芬議員"},{"start":3000.7,"end":3000.8,"text":"主席"},{"start":3031.461,"end":3052.074,"text":"產業發展條例第24條及26條這個條文修正草案那也請我們所有的委員以及行政院呢那好好的來討論我們希望能夠讓法案通過真正的全民運動我們也希望行政院呢在院版的方面也希望盡速來提出共同的來討論"},{"start":3053.275,"end":3057.877,"text":"第二項是學校營養午餐本院委員楊瓊英、廖偉翔、黃建豪、蘇清泉、羅廷偉、牛許廷等21人有鑒於現行的學校飲食規範 散落在相關的規定"},{"start":3071.542,"end":3089.747,"text":"中央跟地方的權責未有明確的一個規範那鄰近的日本跟韓國分別在1954年以及1981年就已經訂定了學校幾時法那建立完整的學校公餐的一個制度為校園午餐的安全來把關"},{"start":3090.467,"end":3105.014,"text":"而且目前我們學校午餐供應我們出現了城鄉的一個差距偏鄉的午餐菜色以及食材與都市的地區都有落差顯見學校午餐的資源存在著"},{"start":3105.794,"end":3109.399,"text":"為了平衡學校營養午餐發展不均的情況並提升校園午餐的品質使學童能夠享有營養均衡並堅固的生活"},{"start":3121.235,"end":3136.769,"text":"的食品安全的午餐呢那讓台灣的校園公餐系統日區的完善保障學童受照顧的一個權益所以你覺得學校公餐條例草案我們也希望在共同的一個討論也希望原版"},{"start":3138.63,"end":3141.553,"text":"能夠盡速的來提出讓這一個專法讓我們在執行者有所本讓我們的學童在吃的營養跟吃的安全都能夠得到飲食的一個保障那麼其中在第七條裡頭我們特別要提出也就是明定"},{"start":3156.989,"end":3181.257,"text":"中央主管機關那麼因統籌辦理學校的午餐成立學校午餐來精進整個諮詢的委員會或相當的這個性質的一個組織研擬學校午餐發展政策與方針那麼重要是在組織以及運作方式呢在中央主管機關來訂定之重點在於這一個"},{"start":3183.058,"end":3203.937,"text":"午餐的教育綱領必須要兩年至少要檢討一次學校的午餐精進諮詢委員會的組成專家學校的團體學者團體的代表以及現任的家長不得低於三分之一委員任意性別"},{"start":3205.498,"end":3234.177,"text":"這個比例呢不得低於三分之一那前將的委員遴選組織以及運送方式由主管機關來訂定之我們也就是希望能夠有一個公正而且讓大家都能夠有所本在監督或者在諮詢方面都能夠非常的清楚換句話說也就是所有的家長大家非常關心的希望我們的孩童可以吃的安全吃的營養吃的均衡"},{"start":3236.981,"end":3245.675,"text":"謝謝好 謝謝楊瓊英委員說明接著有請王洪威委員進行提案說明那因為我們今天提案說明人數很多那請大家簡短發言 謝謝"},{"start":3247.964,"end":3275.7,"text":"好谢谢主席那我就针对我所提案包含学校饮食健康促进法草案以及运动发展运动产业发展条例的修正草案来做提案说明在学校饮食健康促进法案里面那大家也知道就是到目前为止我们的学校公餐并没有专法那么而且呢我们现在有"},{"start":3276.661,"end":3300.359,"text":"在台湾包含直辖市还有各县市那么事实上也有一些的城乡差距所以有必要去定定一个统一的公餐的制度啊不要让我们的孩子在这个营养午餐在健康这个营养的部分呢出现了这样的一个落差那所以呢我提出来的草案重点啊"},{"start":3300.799,"end":3314.935,"text":"包括第一明確中央跟地方政府的權責劃分而建立統一的學校公餐標準第二學校應該設置公餐及飲食教育推動小組會議來辦理學校飲食"},{"start":3318.499,"end":3333.536,"text":"食品安全膳食的采购厂商集合以及其他学校公餐及饮食教育的相关事项而这个成员应该包括了外聘的专家还有营养师教师家长学生等等"},{"start":3334.537,"end":3351.714,"text":"第三规范学校公餐的方式鼓励学校能够制设厨房确保食材来源是可溯源而且优先采用国产在地优良食材第四民地学校营养师的职责公餐人员及厨工的规范"},{"start":3352.535,"end":3368.085,"text":"第五 中央应该编列预算协助办理及推动学校公餐还有饮食的教育第六 加强食品安全以资讯透明化要标示过敏源的资讯"},{"start":3368.945,"end":3393.351,"text":"第七 推動飲食教育跟習食教育讓學生能夠培養好的飲食習慣接下來報告在運動產業發展條例的修正我們都知道其實在台灣運動人口越來越多但是我們很多的運動賽事在官方來辦的大概它的資金來源來自於運產來挹注運動發展基金或者是公務預算"},{"start":3398.692,"end":3426.614,"text":"那么在民间的话也确实有很多的大企业或者是一些体育协会在长期任养但是呢很可惜的它比较长期是专注在某些特定的体育活动上面可是事实上台湾在多元发展体育活动并不仅仅只是在集中在一些少数的体育项目所以为了让我们的民间能够"},{"start":3427.515,"end":3445.38,"text":"举办运动赛事而且这些活动能够更加的扩大所以在这边我提出要修正运动产业发展条例那么在运动相关事业及体育团体"},{"start":3446.32,"end":3468.659,"text":"举办的运动赛事或活动如果符合加值型及非加值型营业税法第八条第一项第五款规定者他的门票收入免征营业税那么盈利事业于推行及提升全民运动发展之赛事或活动进行之捐赠"},{"start":3469.5,"end":3489.373,"text":"其金额不受限制用这样的方式能够导入更多的民间资金投入更多项的一个运动活动体育活动跟运动赛事以上报告谢谢谢谢王洪威委员的发言接下来我们请罗廷伟委员进行提案说明"},{"start":3502.09,"end":3519.599,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉今天排審我想這個台灣學生的營養午餐問題日益受到社會的關注所有家長都非常希望在這一次能夠有學生營養午餐法也就是學校公餐法的一個草案能夠早點來到立法院討論並且能夠落實"},{"start":3521.3,"end":3549.84,"text":"我想現在特別在外送平台的業務蓬勃的發展之際學生身心的發展與飲食的健康更是現在多數所有各界關心的一個重點然而針對學校公餐以及飲食教育的相關事項目前都沒有制定專法僅在學生學校以及衛生法中訂定有五條規定並無法涵蓋學校公餐所面臨的各種問題"},{"start":3551.481,"end":3562.153,"text":"現行各地方政府因財政的狀況還有其他的因素造成各地方的政府以及學校公餐飲食教育成多頭馬車這就是現在的心態"},{"start":3563.464,"end":3580.289,"text":"無法建立較為一致符合最基本要求來讓我們學校公餐的一個飲食教育有制度化還此現在我們對於高級中等以下的學校午餐的一個品質提供健康營養午餐以及"},{"start":3581.289,"end":3598.862,"text":"安全衛生的飲食促進身心健全發展尊重自然環境的教育目的奠定國民健康的基礎所以在這一次呢我們希望透過這個草案我們來立法來改善地方政府學校辦理公餐的一個困境我們要再一次的強調"},{"start":3599.963,"end":3629.343,"text":"不只是單純的公餐的過程我們希望有專法能夠來保障所有孩子在所有的飲食健康的一個權益之外包括學校的營養午餐秘書包括廚工相關等等整個產業的連結都是希望能夠在這一次草案中能夠獲得去探討來訂定之後維護我們學校學生"},{"start":3630.163,"end":3634.946,"text":"老師 廚工 相關等等的權益大家一起來努力 謝謝"},{"start":3652.913,"end":3675.569,"text":"會應應運動部於今年8月正式掛牌成立強化我國體育政策的統籌與資源的整合進一步活絡體育經濟培養運動的人才提升全民運動的風氣本席提出相關稅制的優化的措施首先是針對運動賽事的門票收入給予營業稅的減免第二是鼓勵企業投入資源"},{"start":3676.77,"end":3692.531,"text":"推動全民運動期待能夠填補現行運動產業發展條例的不足鼓勵社會各界投入運動產業促進國家整體的競爭力讓台灣的體育環境可以更好運動比賽可以更精彩創造更多的工作機會帶動運動產業的發展"},{"start":3695.254,"end":3714.821,"text":"本席提案修訂第24條明定運動事業及體育團體舉辦之運動賽事或活動符合加值型及非加值型業稅法第8條第1項第5款規定的運動賽事或活動也就是經認定有公共利益推動運動性質比賽門票收入可以免徵運動"},{"start":3716.621,"end":3742.376,"text":"可以免徵營業稅讓主辦單位把省下來的錢更有效率的運用在賽事品質的提升選手的福利或更多民眾參與的推廣上另外修正第26條明定推行及提升全民運動發展之賽事或活動得依所得稅法第36條第一款之規定以費用劣質且不受金額的限制該措施進一步鼓勵企業積極舉辦"},{"start":3744.157,"end":3766.883,"text":"贊助及支持全民運動相關的活動推動社會大眾養成運動習慣提升國民整體的健康水平這些措施不僅強化企業社會責任的實踐更形塑健康永續的企業形象同時也發揮民間的力量減輕政府推動全民運動的財政壓力形成公私協力的正向循環"},{"start":3768.003,"end":3771.766,"text":"運動部的成立象徵台灣體育發展新時代的來臨並提升全民運動促進經濟的專業的發展積極推動運動產業積極的國際參與為次大目標這不僅是對運動界的重大利多也是台灣整體產業發展"},{"start":3785.634,"end":3794.439,"text":"與國民生活品質的提升的重要契機本席提案希望通過減稅的方式鼓勵企業積極的參與國內運動賽事的活動帶動經濟成長的產值的成長並為運動人才提供更多發展的平台跟資源創造體育經濟與社會福祉雙贏的局面謝謝"},{"start":3808.9,"end":3815.702,"text":"主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政府機關所長官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者女士先生今天我們要審查的一個重要的法案"},{"start":3831.55,"end":3854.79,"text":"在諸多提案委員當中有的稱之為學校公餐法有的稱為學校午餐法也有稱為學校飲食法或是營養飲食法營養健康法飲食教育法諸多這些條目都要告訴我們一件事情學校是什麼地方學校是一個國家提供讓國民進行學習受教育的地方"},{"start":3855.575,"end":3870.428,"text":"但是在這個地方這個學校為何我們今天諸多立法委員要來推動將公餐或午餐或營養或飲食納入到學校的服務範疇大家可以看一看中華民國憲法第160條"},{"start":3871.929,"end":3885.696,"text":"提到了基本教育跟補習教育他說六歲至十二歲之學齡兒童一律受基本教育免納學費這就是我們義務教育的由來其貧苦者由政府供給書籍"},{"start":3887.213,"end":3910.391,"text":"不知道大家有沒有注意到在上個世紀將近八十年前那時候的中華民國的狀態政府要給人民受免費的國民教育但是學習所需要的書籍還必須貧苦者政府才能幫他負擔因此過去以來我們認為學校是讓人民受教育學習"},{"start":3911.932,"end":3929.72,"text":"但是公餐飲食這是家長的事情家長你要養孩子育孩子教育的部分學校幫忙分攤但是連書籍都要憑負責才政府協助供應的憑什麼政府要來負擔學童的飲食呢"},{"start":3930.6,"end":3955.25,"text":"別忘了這是一個上個世紀將近80年前的國家思維時至今日我們看到在學校教育裡面我們不是只有書籍可以來促進教育我們還有包括很多的設施甚至在學童學期期間他所必要的飲食跟營養這也是我們學校教育當中必須涵蓋的一部分"},{"start":3956.555,"end":3974.451,"text":"這個觀念上的進步促成了今天諸多委員我們紛紛提出了各種名稱不同的版本其目的就是希望我們國家正式對國民提供教育其中一項國家政府的義務就是包括提供學生在這段學期期間他所必要的營養飲食"},{"start":3975.933,"end":4004.631,"text":"好了還好憲法呢是有擴充性的在憲法規定的第一底線下我們往前延伸我們政府擴大它的服務同時我們也不要忽略了在憲法第163條國家應注重各地區教育之均衡發展並推行社會教育以提高一般國民之文化水準邊緣及平級地區之教育經費由國庫補助之說到什麼"},{"start":4005.683,"end":4027.736,"text":"所以其實教育的服務其實會有一些中央跟邊陲的不均所以中央政府在提供這樣的國民教育學校服務的時候特別要注重到對於偏遠偏鄉地區的特別照顧避免國民無法得到均值的服務因此本席所提出的學校午餐法跟其他委員"},{"start":4029.197,"end":4055.303,"text":"大多相同但是其中最重要的一項就是第13條在偏遠山地及離島地區居民有其公餐需求者公餐單位應會同相關機關辦理公餐看到這個條文大家嚇一跳不只是對於偏鄉地區要提供額外的補助連該地區的居民也要納入服務居民是我們國民教育學校教育的服務對象嗎"},{"start":4056.303,"end":4071.525,"text":"大家想想看一個學校在一個偏鄉的社區裡面他不是只是教育那個社區的新生人口我們也提到國民教育是全能全生涯的教育因此學校的設立尤其在偏鄉地區因為人口稀薄"},{"start":4072.426,"end":4099.958,"text":"他的提供餐飲的設備往往畏懼經濟規模因此如果只以學童為學校午餐的供應對象將無法發揮政府投資這些餐飲設施的效能因此本席特別在第13條當中加入了在偏鄉地區政府要積極地推動學校飲食的相關補助之外也應該將偏鄉的居民納入到這個服務的範圍"},{"start":4101.258,"end":4118.145,"text":"以促成該地區受教育學生的君子福利當然居民在學校也得到這樣的服務的同時更加能夠發揮偏鄉學校對於國民全生涯教育國民教育的功能以上 謝謝"},{"start":4120.227,"end":4132.671,"text":"謝謝中嘉賓委員說明那接下來我們還有兩位委員進行提案說明陳秀寶委員跟葉元之委員那我們先請陳秀寶委員進行提案說明 謝謝那我們時間稍微減短 謝謝謝主席"},{"start":4138.038,"end":4163.81,"text":"我們的孩子們從國小到高中在學校都有公餐的情況下孩子們將會有超過十年的時間每天至少都在學校享用一次的營養午餐甚至到了國中高中有晚自習會有兩次在學校食用餐食的機會也因此學校提供的餐食的營養環境的衛生及品質的把關至為重要也對孩子們的健康跟安全息息相關"},{"start":4165.868,"end":4171.611,"text":"而也因為學校餐食是孩子每天都會食用的本期的版本是強調除了營養健康我們透過學校提供的餐食來讓孩子認識食材推廣健康飲食的意識提升孩子們對食品安全衛生的認知"},{"start":4182.637,"end":4186.859,"text":"同時結合台灣在地的優質農產品及特色飲食文化強化在地食材與人文歷史的連結兼顧飲食的衛生安全與對台灣農產品的認識發揚飲食文化延續台灣特色飲食的技藝然而受到才化法倉促修法的影響"},{"start":4201.266,"end":4204.729,"text":"中央行政各機關各區分出將近百分之三十到各縣市政府本期希望教育部這邊應該要跟各地的縣市政府進行溝通針對營養師的設置飲食秘書這個新增的經費研議多少的比例該由地方的縣市政府自行來負擔"},{"start":4221.363,"end":4223.984,"text":"並且應該要與教師家長學生團體進行學校飲食相關法規的事項來做意見交流不能我們訂了學校飲食法之後卻因為才化法我們整個財政的分配無法執行希望在充分溝通之後"},{"start":4239.733,"end":4253.225,"text":"我們可以請教育部盡速的提出院版的學校飲食法一起跟委員們的版本進行審議以利三讀後通過之後可以順利的推動相關的事項謝謝謝謝陳秀寶委員簡短發言那我們接下來有請葉元之委員進行提案說明"},{"start":4280.061,"end":4292.204,"text":"我這邊也有提一個學校公餐營養健康促進法因為國外也有類似這樣的一個法律而且國外實施這樣的法律之後也有實證研究證實說有力專法確實跟學生的營養健康各方面都有發展跟促進當然在我們國內我們也常遇到一個問題就是現在營養午餐的"},{"start":4305.587,"end":4329.816,"text":"提供比例越來越高可是普及率高但問題是他真的有達到營養均衡的目的嗎我覺得這個是我們現在想要去解決問題那第二個是現在全台灣的營養午餐的供應能呈現多頭馬車跟一國多智的狀態比如說有的縣市他可能有弱農那可能營養午餐裡面就可以多喝牛奶像以新北市來講的話他們就"},{"start":4331.096,"end":4350.015,"text":"特別有有機蔬菜可以吃就變成一種並沒有全國就全國各行一市但有沒有一個統一的制度所以在我的版本裡面我們有訂定相關的一些辦法希望能夠來提高學生的營養以及做食農教育"},{"start":4350.535,"end":4375.093,"text":"譬如說希望能夠增設專責的單位然後設立專任的午餐秘書而且要有營養師由營養師專任的午餐秘書來把關務必讓學生在吃營養午餐的時候可以達到健康的均衡已經達到營養的促進那進而可以發展食農教育然後甚至於可以做到食食教育以上 謝謝"},{"start":4378.241,"end":4385.635,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員的簡短發言我想接著我們就有請教育部張料次長進行報告報告時間8分鐘"},{"start":4392.999,"end":4420.889,"text":"主席 各位委員 女士先生 大家好本人今日應邀列席就學校公參法草案運動產業發展條例條文修正草案進行報告僅向各位委員長期對於學校供應學生學生膳食及運動產業發展之關心與指導表達衷心的感謝並請各位委員繼續給予教育部業務督導及支持 僅說明如下一 背景說明本部積極重視學生午餐"},{"start":4421.929,"end":4447.68,"text":"前業已擬具高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案並依據地方制度法規定我國學校午餐業務屬於地方自治事項相關人力配置午餐收費等須尊重地方政府因地制宜做法令去年因為財政收支劃分法的修正與本條例經費補助事項息息相關原本"},{"start":4448.919,"end":4470.453,"text":"本部每年補助經濟弱勢學生午餐經費已高達21億學校午餐採用國產可塑原食材補助每年高達38億推動偏鄉學校中央廚房計劃每年也有15億每年總計已經補助的款項已經有74億這部分希望回歸由地方來負擔"},{"start":4471.714,"end":4494.174,"text":"此外就各委員所提版本及關切事項包含新增營養師、午餐、執行秘書專職化以及廚房設備等如果修法完成累計超過至少26億那麼未來每年總計有超過100億移由地方來負擔那這個部分需要持續進一步與地方政府來溝通協調"},{"start":4495.535,"end":4502.321,"text":"另外有關運動產業發展條例為推動促進運動產業發展所訂定之法源依據包括健全職業運動產業發展"},{"start":4505.035,"end":4530.211,"text":"並推動相關業與運動加速職業化的進程及重點運動賽事提供營利事業租稅優惠誘因因應運動產業環境變化提供運動產業相關的輔導與講助由多位委員提出的相關修正草案在此感謝各位委員對於運動產業的支持與關心那麼行政院已經將運動產業法案條例列為本會期的優先法案建議委員提案與行政院"},{"start":4531.496,"end":4554.249,"text":"的版本來並案審議那麼其能攜手完善運動產業的發展環境第二教育部針對委員所提各草案做一個簡要的回覆一 營養午餐法的部分教育部回覆如下第一有關適用對象考量幼生年齡較小其供餐模式以高級中等以下學校不同另一有完備的法源依據所以原建議以高級中等"},{"start":4554.949,"end":4561.375,"text":"以下學校為適用對象第二午餐收費及食材費用佔比考量學校公餐標準"},{"start":4562.196,"end":4587.523,"text":"一致並避免各地差異過大影響學生營養權益原建議學生午餐費之費額考量因素與決定程序及食材費用佔學生午餐費之比例由中央主管機關會商地方主管機關定資以使各地方政府或學校與調整午餐費之相關考量及決定程序有所依循三"},{"start":4588.203,"end":4610.636,"text":"學校營養師及廚工之配置基準學校午餐不論是廚房管理、菜單的設計、食材的採購、驗收等作業需專業人員辦理為學校營養師設置標準關係學校人事員而編制的限制而且增加了各地方財政裁員及財政負擔等問題仍需與地方政府、延商取得共識並參考鄰近國家的標準來修訂"},{"start":4613.698,"end":4634.19,"text":"另有關儲工資配置比例考量不同公餐形態及公餐規模及儲工資聘任也應該尊重地方政府應地制以來定制第四 午餐執行秘書職責由教師兼任應檢授課結束那麼學校衛生法以明定學校應指定專責單位及專責人員"},{"start":4636.452,"end":4664.77,"text":"負責規劃設計推動學校午餐工作令多數委員建議黨由教師兼任應減授其授課時數查直轄縣市政府所屬國民小學及國民中學辦理學校午餐應注意事項以明訂教師得兼任學校午餐執行秘書並得以減少授課時數其相關規定由主管機關定之本部會持續跟地方政府來會商來精進相關的獎勵措施"},{"start":4666.131,"end":4686.632,"text":"學校或午餐供應業者違反相關規定之裁罰本部定有高級中等以下學校執行校園食品規範的督導考核要點對於違反規定之學校有相關的獎懲機制另外業者的部分可以依契約範本食品安全衛生管理法裁罰的標準及相關規定辦理原建議裁罰規定無需重複認定"},{"start":4688.354,"end":4704.5,"text":"第六農業及地方主管機關建置食材採購平台那麼學校衛生法規定學校供應膳食應優先採用中央農業主管機關認證之在地優良農業產品那麼學校午餐使用的這個三張一Q的食材從"},{"start":4707.534,"end":4728.544,"text":"從106年到113年已經達到了98.67%那麼各縣市在食材採購上已經自行運用方式本部會配合農業部及地方政府審慎規劃逐步進行那麼第二呢有關運動產業發展條例教育部回覆如下一委員省發會等19人萬美林等19人擬拒之第二條條文修正案"},{"start":4729.284,"end":4754.762,"text":"那麼修正主管機關委運動部原建議維持現行條文並配合運動部成立的期程在公告管轄變更方式來辦理第二委員林倩琦等二十二人拟據第四條條文修正草案委員提案中央主管機關應針對運動博弈業訂定運動博弈業管理辦法及運動經濟管理顧問或行政管理業應訂定運動經紀人管理辦法一節本部考量"},{"start":4755.642,"end":4780.702,"text":"運動博弈業屬於特許行業採高密度管理機制且已經訂定了運動彩券發行條例並依該條例授權訂定運動彩券管理辦法以管理運動彩券發行的相關事項另外運動經濟管理顧問及或行政管理業者由於運動產業人才多元且各具專業獨特性較不宜以通案方式規範並由政府介入管理建議維持現行條文並將"},{"start":4783.524,"end":4797.424,"text":"就定義的內容及範圍的部分納入未來運動產業的內容及範圍來研修評估三委員柯之恩等22人委員張志倫等18人委員洪孟凱等17人委員黃鴻威等19人委員區域"},{"start":4798.966,"end":4814.478,"text":"徵等17人委員萬美玲等19人及委員楊秋英等27人女拒運動產業發展條例第24條第26條條文修正案委員所提涉及租稅公平及一致性監獄與行政院版本並案審議學生健康"},{"start":4816.212,"end":4834.771,"text":"學生健康實育率是國家未來競爭力的重要基石本部致力於培養學生正確的飲食觀念以及感恩惜食的生活教育目標與照顧學生的健康成長那麼運動產業發展條例是為了推動運動產業的法源依據行政院已將運動產業發展條例的修正案列為本會期的優先法案"},{"start":4835.351,"end":4858.369,"text":"本次各委員所提有關修正法規主管機關原商運動產業的內容及範圍提升租稅優惠的誘因及相關的範疇等感謝各委員的關心及支持運動產業發展期望透過行政院的版本與本次委員提案完備相關法制健全運動產業發展並提供國人優質的運動休閒環境以上報告 敬請各位委員予以指教 謝謝"},{"start":4861.163,"end":4866.716,"text":"謝謝張廖次長口頭報告我們接下來有請農業部黃昭新副署長報告報告時間三分鐘"},{"start":4892.731,"end":4893.413,"text":"主席 各位委員 農業部"},{"start":4897.026,"end":4926.066,"text":"農業部報告農業部在這一次的學校午餐法審查裡面我們農業部報告的部分包括推動學校午餐使用國產可溯源食材辦理的情形農業部在從106年開始配合教育部共同推動學校午餐採用在地食材政策鼓勵學校採用有機"},{"start":4927.626,"end":4950.011,"text":"產銷履歷優良產品以及溯源的農產品追溯條碼的3Q食材提升效源食材可溯源性確保學童吃到來源明確優質安全的國產食材那在國產食材的供應部分在產銷履歷的部分我們從農糧產品從107年"},{"start":4955.772,"end":4961.456,"text":"總共有15000多公頃成長到114年2月成長到109500多公頃成長率達到687%那在水產品的部分也成長了40.32%在情緒產品已經代產品的部分跟106年比較起來也成長了132.03%"},{"start":4986.052,"end":4993.458,"text":"在推動有機有膳耕作的部分有機產品的驗證面積到114年2月已經達到20489公頃"},{"start":5004.861,"end":5007.405,"text":"在溯源產品的部分到114年2月也達到了91827公頃"},{"start":5019.144,"end":5030.5,"text":"那整個我們有三張一Q的這個可溯源的這個食材到114年2月全國的各縣市登錄的比數佔比已經達到98.81%那在"},{"start":5037.887,"end":5045.315,"text":"校園食材的這個抽驗的部分每年我們抽驗目標是3000在農糧產品的部分有3000件序產品的部分有8000件魚序產品有3000件"},{"start":5053.953,"end":5080.267,"text":"那合格率到在農糧產品的部分是有96.6%漁畜產品有達到100%那水產品是到99.4%那以上報告謝謝黃副署長的報告我們接下來有請衛生福利部林金富副署長報告報告時間三分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":5088.328,"end":5115.3,"text":"主席各位委員女士先生今天大院第十一屆第三會期教育及文化委員會召開全體委員會議衛生福利部呈邀列席報告深感榮幸知就學校公餐法案提出專案報告敬請各位委員不吝會議指教第一點本部食藥署針對學校午餐食品安全之相關規範"},{"start":5117.641,"end":5138.481,"text":"為維護校園學童食用安全、學校午餐所使用之食材、學校自設廚房與供應學校午餐團散業者均應符合食品安全衛生管理法的相關規定消暑持續透過跨部會合作確保校園午餐安全並規劃稽查專案"},{"start":5142.958,"end":5161.727,"text":"與地方衛生局合作每年至少積查一次學校自設廚房兩次團散業者如有查獲缺失皆依法處辦第二點本部國民健康署針對學校午餐營養及健康均衡飲食相關規範"},{"start":5163.525,"end":5177.019,"text":"為促進國人營養及健康飲食本部健康署依營養健康飲食促進法第十條所規定依性別、年齡、懷孕及生產等"},{"start":5178.483,"end":5199.832,"text":"擬定國人膳食營養素參考攝取量每日飲食指南國民飲食指標等並發展我的餐盤均衡飲食圖像及口訣使民眾易於生活中落實均衡的飲食型態健康署協助教育部依營養及飲食建議攝取基準及飲食建議"},{"start":5202.987,"end":5228.278,"text":"由教育部訂定學校午餐食物內容及營養基準相關規範提供教育部推動飲食教育提升家長學童的健康適能最後為維護學童學校午餐食品安全衛生及健康營養並具有教育意義本部持續推動食品安全衛生及營養與飲食教育相關業務積極促進國人健康飲食"},{"start":5231.752,"end":5249.199,"text":"本部曾答應各委員之指教及監督在此靜置謝誠並請各位委員繼續予以支持 以上報告好 謝謝林副署長報告接下來我們有請財政部李立新副署長進行口頭報告時間3分鐘"},{"start":5260.235,"end":5267.349,"text":"主席 各位委員先進 大家好那以下由財政部就運動產業發展條例社本部業務的部分檢要報告"},{"start":5270.61,"end":5289.822,"text":"一 各委員提案第24條運動賽事或活動門票收入免徵營業稅適用對象增訂運動事業的部分一 運動產業發展條例第24條立法說明營業稅法第8條第1項第5款規定教育文化機構提供的教育勞務免徵營業稅體育本屬教育的範疇"},{"start":5292.984,"end":5303.815,"text":"體育團體舉辦運動賽事或活動所收取的門票收入屬教育文化機構提供的教育勞務者得免徵營業稅運動事業依本條例第三條及第四條的規定它包含運動旅遊業、電子競技業及運動博弈業等產業其以營利為目的經營相關業務"},{"start":5314.424,"end":5331.169,"text":"與這個體育團體是以推展體育為宗旨依法設立的非營利組織不同不是營業稅法的所稱的教育文化機構所以他舉辦的運動賽事或活動的門票收入並沒有免徵營業稅的適用那第二是關於各委員提案第26條"},{"start":5332.409,"end":5345.535,"text":"增訂營利事業捐贈推行促進全民運動發展的運動賽事或活動得依所的稅法規定以費用列支不受金額限制的部分那營利事業目前他贊助體育活動或賽事的各項費用據廣告費性質的依所的稅法規定得以全額以廣告費列支那營利事業推行員工的體育活動"},{"start":5355.18,"end":5366.563,"text":"也可以依按職工福利費用或其他費用列資沒有金額的限制那一定是如果捐贈政府登記有案的體育團體那或者是舉辦員工參與的體育活動也可以依本條例第26條規定以費用列資"},{"start":5372.245,"end":5385.572,"text":"那綜上營利事業推動促進全民運動發展的體育活動支出目前已可以依支出項目分別適用相關的稅法規定列報不受金額限制那以上說明 敬請各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":5387.528,"end":5406.363,"text":"謝謝副署長口頭報告相關機關所提書面資料請一併參閱現在進行綜合詢答每位出席委員質詢8分鐘必要時間長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為上午10點30分委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10點30分前提出並與本會委員、範圍委員質詢結束後"},{"start":5408.737,"end":5417.606,"text":"及進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及連署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先請發言登記第一位柯智恩委員提出質詢謝謝我們請張次長請張次長張廖次長備詢"},{"start":5426.844,"end":5454.004,"text":"谢谢科委员次长好我想在进入营养午餐专法的探讨之前我们先来澄清一件事情我想在这个人民投家的宣讲当中包括你们的委员还有包括非常多的网络在流传家长都在抗议说今年他们的小孩好不容易考上公费留考但是因为我们在野党删减的公费留学奖金的预算让这些学生没有办法留学"},{"start":5454.824,"end":5460.507,"text":"我想請張次長特別來說一下今年的留學獎金有被刪減或被凍結嗎這個部分柯木據我了解是沒有那在這個個案我們有去了解那我請那個細節我請那個我不是個案現在網路到處流傳然後你可不可以告訴我就你理解沒有來我先告訴你一下就我們查出來的資料當中很明顯的告訴我們這個教育部編列的國際人才是有一次"},{"start":5484,"end":5502.053,"text":"14亿8千多公费留考的举办留学生奖学金包括贷款是3407万这个完全是从我们的预算书里面特别出来的鼓励学生国外交流是4.8亿鼓励赴世界一流大学的奖学金是2.3亿还有世界大学合作的1.95亿"},{"start":5503.254,"end":5529.282,"text":"還不包括留學貸款的兩千多萬還有新南向國鄉產業實習的五億總共留學的獎學金是九億四千萬比去年七億還多增加一點三億請告訴我為什麼有這麼多的謠傳包括你們的立委在公開的場合告訴我們因為我們山我們洞所以讓這些學生沒有辦法出去請給我一個清楚的答案我想委員的這個資料非常清楚我們得到資料是這樣子"},{"start":5530.58,"end":5533.101,"text":"所以說太誇張太離譜好不好太離譜我的分貝98好不好這就是一個部分嘛所以我只能說這樣不有做澄清嗎你們如果選擇沉默難道是配合這樣的一個謠言嗎"},{"start":5546.548,"end":5553.491,"text":"我想不會去配合啦就是說因為網路有太多消息好 那很好啊那次長我們給你們一個機會教育部一向就需要把家長的concern放在心上因為這非常的重要不要讓家長去我也覺得啊留學好不容易考上怎麼可能會刪減呢所以呢你們有個即時新聞澄清網"},{"start":5566.517,"end":5584.359,"text":"我上网去看了一下真的不好意思我也不知道是什么理由停留在112年12月8号现在是应该我们有计算应该是114年吧对不对这叫及时澄清网次长你觉得你们是不是需要在这个地方做一个澄清让我们家长来放心一下呢"},{"start":5584.619,"end":5602.604,"text":"好我想這部分我們會來檢討來謝謝你所以說基本上趕快來做一個澄清啊否則我也希望教育部在你們的帶領之下面其實都非常理性的有如果讓家長有不安心的地方請趕快做一些澄清然後請問一下次長你們的預算什麼時候要送來解凍"},{"start":5603.8,"end":5617.608,"text":"我們預算已經在簽合了好 你趕快送上簡東以關跟教育有關的我們在場委員其實都會很願意來趕快去做趕快送上來我很怕有一些單位不送他好像到最後又是因為我們在動我們在閃我們覺得撐不起這樣子的一個謠言好不好謠言滿天飛"},{"start":5621.83,"end":5638.87,"text":"请把立即做澄清我们希望我们今天或明天看到让全国有公费留学的家长们放心在野党没有山也没有洞这是一个正确的资料好接下来我要问一下就是因为如此我还是忍不住要发声一下因为这位是跟我们是大学一样的同僚"},{"start":5639.471,"end":5660.348,"text":"大学教授愿意能够来到这个政府机关来服务我觉得都应该给予鼓励然后呢你们国立科学博物馆的馆长其实上是一个非常负责认真的我们过去呢去年也曾经到科博馆里面来做参访非常认真的告诉我们科博馆未来整个方向那我不晓得为什么会有逼退馆长这样一件事情"},{"start":5660.788,"end":5675.511,"text":"而且呢让所有的研究员研究员都在做研究他们竟然就是连署而且上诉到赖总统的部分里面请问你们现在也只是代理为什么要让一个很优秀的馆长却是被你们教育部给背请辞"},{"start":5676.212,"end":5691.761,"text":"我想我這邊得到的資料是交管長是在2月16號歸屆嘛那他是藉調他的任期是到7月31號對有什麼理由要讓人家在2月的時候就走人藉調沒有所謂我聽到的是藉調沒有所謂的任期啦就是說這個他就是藉調然後就是歸這個時間到"},{"start":5693.302,"end":5721.033,"text":"是他的理由事实上他想做到7月30而且他还在医院的时候呢曾经给全管发一封信希望大家能够为科博馆的未来能够做好一些预备的动作难道是因为他每一次都来我们这边希望我们周围能够帮他们争取预算争取到让你们教育部觉得这样的一个做法好像是太麻烦然后呢就因此明明是7月的时候可以让他去归件你们却在2月时候请人家走人"},{"start":5721.806,"end":5734.249,"text":"我想教育部這邊人事單位跟我講的說他們只有收到請辭的一個這個對不起次長他是被請辭你要不要再去了解一下所以往事已矣但是我認為一個非常優秀的館長而且願意為科博館來因為對我來說的話他是一個科博館的損失是你們教育部的損失你有機會的話你也認識這位館長然後呢基於對於他的優秀跟認真我覺得有必要因為這對於未來"},{"start":5749.372,"end":5769.666,"text":"所有要被借掉到我们教育部各单位里面来从事公职的教授而言这都是一个指标我请次长可以好好的来了解一下谢谢你了我们来了解对这是一个非常重要的我们不需要一个优秀的人才因为是怎么样不同的理由特别是跟庄委不断的希望能够给予更多的经费然后让大家觉得这个"},{"start":5770.146,"end":5789.154,"text":"认真过度以至于让其他人觉得到底发生什么事我希望这种事情不要再发生在教育部所属的单位所以请次长好好去了解一下接下来我们就来看看营养午餐的这个公法了我想我去年五月的时候在当招委的时候我就召开了学校午餐法制化的一个公听会那时候次长"},{"start":5789.534,"end":5807.807,"text":"当然不是你是一个林明玉政策来出席而且公听会到距离现在是到底多久了十个月过去了然后呢请问有关于学校影响午餐的立法是否还在原地打转然后呢为什么行政院不能把这个院板送来而且我还要提醒张廖次长在我们"},{"start":5808.905,"end":5832.796,"text":"一起在當第九任立委的時候我們就把這一個營養午餐把它提出來為什麼到現在我們兩個各自站在對面來做質詢的時候他還在原地打戰我想這個是一個從法的角度看但是從實質的內容法就是要提出更好的一個環境譬如說要增加人力要補助一些弱勢的孩童或者說這個營養三張一Q的這個食材擴大補助其實在108年最早108年嘛那時候我當立委的時候當然對對"},{"start":5838.218,"end":5853.838,"text":"那時候提出來之後事實上大家所提的那雖然說各界的意見不太一樣在整合中但事實上從109年開始當時的潘部長就說法沒有修我們資源先給所以不管是有關這個公立國中國民中小學的有沒有問題"},{"start":5855.18,"end":5872.923,"text":"但是我現在是回應到法的一個層面我要想了解教育部對於專法的一個態度我也看看你昨天很晚才送過來完全就是告訴我們說地方如何如何我們就一一來去看現在確實是遇到了就是說本來我們在去年11月20號已經送警政院就把布板的草案送了"},{"start":5873.063,"end":5877.266,"text":"但是12月20號的時候就發生了這個中央財政收支發放法的問題那我們都知道說剛才我在報告的時候有提過那事實上根據地方制度法來講學校國民中學小學的學校營養餐市長我們一一來釐清我們不要每一次都"},{"start":5891.658,"end":5914.283,"text":"都推給我們地方沒有問題我們現在來看嘛這其實最大的一個困難點還是到底我們政府可以投資多好的經費跟人力到底未來是中央跟地方治權怎麼樣分配這是後半段我現在只問到一個專法的部分你剛剛特別提到了院有院的板只是我們現在都沒看到院板長成什麼樣子我們修法會增加很多經費的投入就是提到地方的權限"},{"start":5916.624,"end":5922.447,"text":"就是說你修了法之後到底是要中央附地方所以你告訴我就說我們從那麼早開始到現在次長我們從我們第九任開始到現在所以因為裁劃法的關係讓原本要通過的部分開始又卡關所以我們現在裁劃法又開始要到釋憲又要開始到部分所以你是要告訴我們這麼樣一步可能可以推行的部分我們要等到釋憲完之後才要重新來看看這個釋權該怎麼樣"},{"start":5943.536,"end":5950.882,"text":"事實上從108年開始談營養午餐我們109年到111年的專案計畫已經投入了75.6億的補助我懂剛剛已經報告過了每年現在對於弱勢學童對於營養午餐的出發這沒有問題對於三張IQ每年74億這個沒有問題那修法之後會怎樣這怎麼會沒有問題不是我下次告訴你說你現在這個專法你們的態度是你們行政院會有這個版本出來現在只是在事權的部分我們需要做一個釐清嗎沒有錯"},{"start":5970.937,"end":5978.024,"text":"沒有錯你增加的費用跟現在負擔的費用都必須重新釐清嘛過去都有中央來出每年出74億修法之後最少再增加26億會有100億以上那100億都還是中央來出嗎那如果要地方出地方政府"},{"start":5987.233,"end":6011.656,"text":"市長我現在只是從時間軸的部分來說在這個財化法沒有公佈之前我們從第九任到現在顯然我們都沒有看到願版那現在有了一個財化法之後你告訴我因為財化法的部分才有我們就要追溯到更前面為什麼因為我們要討教事權之前還有很多條文因為我們有公辦公義有公辦民義有民辦民義有非常多委員你很清楚啦其實1153不是沒有"},{"start":6012.777,"end":6042.172,"text":"除了没有专法以外学校卫生法的第16条还有22条23条之123我觉得这个东西才是我们应该好好来厘清的我们应该好好来厘清特别是我要特别提到了像我们美农的龙渡国小里面你大家知道吗他们食农教育做得非常的好而且他们都可以自给自足可是呢就是因为有这样的一个专法中央厨房下来反而让这些做得非常好的一个地方的偏远的地方他们反而因为这样子让他们很多的很好的一个计划就因此受到"},{"start":6042.652,"end":6066.759,"text":"說到這樣部分所以我才說在專法的過程當中事權先我們是後面在這專法部分我跟你討論說以類似相對的部分來看每個地區都有他們自己的不同的部分我們如何能夠用這樣的法能夠保障這些原有的一個特色又可以讓很多的孩子因為這樣子而得到更好的一個部分我覺得這才是一個我們要討論的部分委員說你提得非常非常好"},{"start":6067.239,"end":6082.316,"text":"所以這就因地制宜嘛地方政府我們要尊重所以我才說在這個專法的這個層面上面有沒有把這些問題來考量至於你剛剛跟我一次argue那個只是在我們事權的分配上面那我們先從法條上面先一一來做釐清而且我所argue的點就是說我們這麼久以來"},{"start":6084.919,"end":6109.656,"text":"這個行政院的版本我們沒有看到要看到之前突然告訴我一個裁劃法讓我們這邊又要等到這個部分才能夠看到這是我剛剛跟你說我沒有否認說你這個市權該怎麼分配但是這個條文上面是否可以把我們剛剛所在乎的各地方的部分我覺得這才是他們的一個重點這部分我們會朝這個方向來協助我們有佈板啦隨時有佈板行程有佈板好 那就請我們剛剛講的即時澄清版請馬上讓我們可以看得到好 謝謝 謝謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":6115.081,"end":6121.287,"text":"謝謝柯志恩委員質詢那次長請回座那接著我們繼續質詢那我們有請萬美玲委員質詢好 一樣我們有請張六萬今天次長請次長備質詢"},{"start":6134.471,"end":6159.391,"text":"次長,我想過去站在這邊是張亮萬堅委員現在站在那邊是張亮萬堅次長但是呢,以我過去我們一起在教育文化委員會我想各項的教育議題啊不管你在哪個位置,我認為你都不會改變這是對的嗎?沒有錯好,沒有錯我們在110年的時候本席跟您我們有一起參加過一個記者會,你有印象嗎?"},{"start":6161.36,"end":6182.967,"text":"記者會參加太多了太多了 這個記者會非常的重要在110年3月的時候當時我跟您還有跟黃國樹委員我們一起參加了營養師全國聯合會以及大小食育協會當時我們是要來支持這個飲食營養促進法那也就是現在我們大家一直在談的這個營養午餐專法也好這個午餐這個專法都好"},{"start":6186.568,"end":6202.527,"text":"那你看看110年到现在包括你刚刚所说的从108年109年到现在多少年过去了所以如果今天在这里我们是不是应该就要就营养午餐专访到底啊自然难行的地方在哪里我们准备到什么地方去讨论哦"},{"start":6202.927,"end":6221.854,"text":"所以我想剛才特別您跟柯政委員馬上就用這個才化法把這個問題就擋住了我個人覺得不太好所以我想今天我們好好的來討論一下我們現在營養午餐專法走到哪裡了那什麼地方應該再藉由這一次我們招委排的這個專報我們可以來更細緻的把它去做一個說明"},{"start":6226.756,"end":6243.303,"text":"現在我們來看您剛才也說到這個潘文忠部長過去也很支持也趕快要推那以前他也講過說這個營養53專法這個草案出來了他希望在該會期那個會期呢就要去完成所以大家都急嘛包括之前林明裕次長也有提過說我們要趕快來通過嘛"},{"start":6244.764,"end":6261.883,"text":"可是事實上就是到現在還沒看到半個影子院版也還沒有出來那部版其實有了但是現在我們還沒有辦法進行討論好 我們今天來看營養午餐專法何其重要我們在這邊要再重新來說一次好 我們看到現在在各縣市各校我們營養午餐的這個樣態非常非常的多"},{"start":6264.986,"end":6270.707,"text":"每一個縣市不同每一個學校不同樣態非常的多甚至還有一樣的樣態執行起來有不一樣的狀況跟效果出來所以營養午餐專法的重要我們看到營養午餐的這個統一規範其實我想中央是責無旁貸那地方執行當然也是要透徹所以我們來看過去不管是在102年發生了這個劣質遊的時候我們就會想到孩子的營養午餐怎麼樣然後蘇丹紅的時候我們也想到孩子的學校營養午餐會不會受影響"},{"start":6294.931,"end":6309.499,"text":"萊豬事件我們也曾經在這邊要修過一起要修過這個學校衛生法第23條等等就是一旦有食安的事情我們想到都是學校的問題所以我想這個養生專法真的非常的重要當然現在不管是學校衛生法"},{"start":6310.759,"end":6332.364,"text":"好 我們教育部來主責的食農教育法 農業部主責的營養及健康飲食促進法 衛福部主責的但是我們就是沒有一個專法所以我們在地方上在執行營養午餐的時候其實有的時候真的沒有一個統一的規則我覺得造成地方很大的困擾那我也相信你來自於地方你一定知道好 我們再看到2025年2月的時候 也就是今年2月"},{"start":6337.385,"end":6362.432,"text":"監委的一個調查報告上面指出教育部他直指教育部沒有落實這個對營養午餐的一個把關那我們看到現在很多的學校營養午餐這個不管是熱量超標這個很常見然後水果乳品分配不足這個也是有的炸物過多可能為了要討好孩子的口味然後以及我們不管是這個加工品 拌製品過多"},{"start":6364.232,"end":6384.722,"text":"其實這些都是監察院的報告出來的所以他也直指這是嚴重的影響了學生的健康發展而且呢他也說了沒有訂定這個學校午餐專法要求教育部要改進所以這個應該是我們學校也好老師也好學生家長或者您跟我"},{"start":6385.602,"end":6413.488,"text":"監察院大家都知道這個要快所以呢像現在如果我們沒有統一的標準我舉個例子喔也是來自於您的所在的區域台中喔在我們面對這個萊豬這個事件的時候你看台中市政府的態度跟中央就不一樣台中市政府就是更嚴格的去把關好後來呢我想我們中央有意見但是我們現在看到像這個萊豬之爭台中市政府最後還是贏了也就是說大家都知道實案的把關才是要用最高的標準來看的喔"},{"start":6413.908,"end":6439.122,"text":"所以呢 好 那這個次長 我們現在回過頭來把這些問題都把它釐清過來包括 營養午餐專法如果沒有制定下來 沒有一個統一的標準我們看到我們的食安的管理恐怕還是會有很多的漏洞出現那專法呢 不管是我們去規範這個食材的供應廠商的資格啦或者茶盒啦 或者這個食材追溯的一些相關制度啊 這都是會有的"},{"start":6439.582,"end":6443.408,"text":"那另外呢也就是呢過去我們一起都在講的不管是我們營養師或廚工的這個不足啊我想透過的專法也會有一個相當的保障那再來我們不管是在菜單還有這個營養的上面我們也一直都很在乎嘛"},{"start":6455.126,"end":6472.002,"text":"可是如果今天有專法我們在營養師跟廚工上面給予他們更多的支持我想在這個菜單跟營養上面我覺得我們可以做得更好那最後我想這個經費跟補助上面這個問題就更大了我想我們特別來講到這個經費我想次長應該知道我們現在各縣市各校真的是吃營養午餐的那個價格完全不一樣"},{"start":6479.409,"end":6500.602,"text":"我在想少的有二三十塊這個一餐的三四十塊一餐多的有七八十塊九十塊一餐的孩子都一樣啊每一個孩子都應該是平等的但我們卻有這樣的落差也許你要告訴我說食材的來源不一樣啊有的舊地啊舊境啊什麼的但是呢我們是不是就是應該要制定一個專法那在專法之下我們怎麼去保障說在成本之外"},{"start":6500.942,"end":6528.64,"text":"我們要用這個可以有透明公開的方式不是說大家吃的不一樣那你看現在又有的是這個使用者付費那有的就是這個可能這個縣市是完全免費這很亂很奇怪啊那你看如果完全免費的就是因為這樣所以很難有一個專門來市長如果完成免費的不不不你這個說法其實很不對喔我應該這樣講你在那個位置你這樣說你今天在這個位置上過去你也是這樣講我在那個位置我一樣也是知道"},{"start":6528.78,"end":6533.944,"text":"沒有 過去在這個位置的講法是什麼正因為有這麼多的問題所以我們才要制定專法不是因為有這麼多問題所以專法很難制定不是這樣子的說法啦所以次長你也知道有這麼多問題那因為要解決這麼多問題我們要趕快把專法制定起來而不是你剛剛這樣說的這有一點本末倒置所以我在想剛剛我們提到這個還有經費上的問題這也應該要統一也要公開也要透明嘛所以呢我想專法的制定"},{"start":6556.282,"end":6580.188,"text":"這一次我真的跟您站在完全不同立場看這件事所以才要快速而不是說這麼複雜所以就沒有辦法做所以我們剛剛也都知道說我們希望有一個中央層級的專法出來那過去您自己我昨天再回頭看了一下當時我們開記者會您的說法我想跟本席提現在的說法其實也是一致的我們要真的要能夠趕上日韓因為孩子的健康不能等所以怎麼樣趕快把這個專法出來那這個"},{"start":6582.813,"end":6598.321,"text":"市長今天能不能有一個時間我希望這個教育部能夠趕快去催促不管是自己的部板或者是一個院板讓整個行政團隊能夠跟我們的老師家長甚至於我們食材廠商等等我們站在一起所以這個時間上"},{"start":6601.347,"end":6615.38,"text":"謝謝萬委員的這個關心我想時間上我不知道要怎麼回答你但是我剛才你剛才提了很多問題沒有讓我時間來澄清跟回答譬如說你提到的營養師的問題我們質詢了那營養師有沒有增加那個次長我想我們剛剛講東西我們剛剛講的每一下問題你說實在的問題次長我們從這個午餐契約的我想次長"},{"start":6623.467,"end":6626.788,"text":"我想我們剛講的每一項我不會不讓你回答因為我們還要去審查嘛我想趙偉還會談嘛所以今天我把這個問題提出來如果今天我們有個半個小時的時間以上我們當然有辦法一條一條談市長 不要這樣過去如果你站在這個位置對面是這樣來答詢的話我想你應該也不會接受這樣答詢啦所以不要說站在那個位置上去這樣做"},{"start":6650.492,"end":6658.861,"text":"所以我現在要告訴你的是說今天問題點出來你也很清楚這些問題點但這問題點是必須點出來的至於你講的每一點每一點要不要時間給您回答呢我們在草案的時候大家可以一條一條來回答但你必須要準備好啊如果你都沒有準備好布板也沒有出來院板也沒有出來那我們修法增加的這些錢"},{"start":6670.993,"end":6673.074,"text":"過去補助的經費地方政府會不會買單你這個地方政府不買單我們怎麼去修這個法哎呀 次長我覺得啦你不要站在這個位置跟站在那個位置我覺得在面對答詢的這個態度是不一樣但是環境有改變嘛那我們必須要務實的來面對這樣的情況我們把它講清楚"},{"start":6693.151,"end":6716.384,"text":"你過去站在這個位置的時候你會這樣子嗎你過去在質詢的時候非常溫潤儒雅然後呢其實每一次我告訴你沒有一個對面的部長這樣子的你怎麼當到次長你這樣呢你過去在這裡講的時候如果今天林明裕次長這樣子回答你你有辦法質詢下去嗎你有辦法質詢下去嗎本席今天也告訴你說我們在頭上面到底要不要聽報告時間暫停時間暫停"},{"start":6722.079,"end":6731.865,"text":"那個我們這邊質詢一問一答麻煩次長這個確認一下我們這個規定好謝謝尊重我們提出質詢的委員"},{"start":6734.406,"end":6750.854,"text":"次長我想我們過去的溝通都很好沒有一次像現在這樣今天本席也講得非常的清楚說以上的問題是把它點出來加強地點出來那希望我們在審查的時候有條文的時候我們再來一一講今天不是不給您時間講而且我相信這些問題過去你也知道"},{"start":6752.475,"end":6766.343,"text":"但是今天用這樣的方式 我覺得不太好你過於強勢 那今天我們只是要提醒你說這也是你過去的主張 本席只是再次的提醒你那我們在審查的時候 召委會排嘛召委要排的時候 是不是我們就可以再來出條討論那我希望說 你不本要趕快出來嘛你願本要趕快催出來嘛"},{"start":6771.105,"end":6792.015,"text":"這是過去你自己說的話呀所以我這邊再一次跟你提我希望啦能夠在一個月之內趕快把布板或是院板吹出來我們才有辦法繼續往下走那在這個討論的時候我們再針對這些一條一條來討論好不好那最後想給我再一分鐘的時間就好庭瑋不好意思那我想體育署體育署這邊我只要提醒一件事因為時間一分鐘的時間"},{"start":6794.216,"end":6819.596,"text":"就是我們現在有聽說到說教育部打算要讓國小的體育班轉型甚至於可能就是直接廢掉體育班變成社團的模式有這樣的事情嗎報告委員我們基本上沒有要讓體育班退場我們是在在這個討論的過程當中很多委員提到體育班的一些現況跟他一些地方不夠完善那我們希望協助他在不動課綱的情況之下來做部分的轉型"},{"start":6820.663,"end":6841.869,"text":"我簡單回答一下啦,其實那天是因為那個專業教練協會來拜訪,那我們也提到說在籌組運動部的過程裡面,很多選手出身的,或是教練,或是諮詢委員認為說那個體育班過早,在國小就,社立體育班過早分流,那對孩子的學習體育的方式可能會造成一些不良的影響。"},{"start":6842.569,"end":6859.266,"text":"那我們其實是盤點了之後那也請國教署去看一下那課綱的時數就是說我們第七節以後有一些彈性課那是不是我們將來如果可能教育政策能夠允許的話國小的部分讓更多的孩童都能夠接觸到一般相關的"},{"start":6861.468,"end":6872.812,"text":"我簡單的下一個結論就是說體育班的部分你們希望怎麼樣處理更完善那我覺得我們大家都會支持但是可能第一個不能貿然退場第二個我們要轉型要說明因為現在這個消息出來已經造成我們國小的體育班家長跟學生還有教練人心惶惶"},{"start":6880.474,"end":6899.769,"text":"所以我們要趕快對外做說明因為那些媒體沒有採訪我們他是聽過轉述所以在轉述的內容裡面確實會影響基層尤其是國小部分教練的一些恐慌這部分我們會透過管道能夠跟這些教練好就是說清楚說明白如果要轉型的話我覺得要全方位的去完善考量這樣好不好好謝謝謝謝委員的關心謝謝"},{"start":6903.547,"end":6928.136,"text":"謝謝萬美玲委員的諮詢 次長請回座 官員請回座我們這個是詢答 這個我們立院的委員提出詢問那也希望部會官員就提出解答我們是提出問題 然後部會官員提出解答而不是部會官員提出問題所以我想這個接下來 我們有請羅廷偉委員諮詢"},{"start":6934.36,"end":6960.032,"text":"好 謝謝趙偉 有請次長請次長背紙取 謝謝謝謝主席 羅委員好次長你好 次長對我來說啊您不只是次長您更是我們台中市的立法委員曾經在我們面前是一個非常溫文儒雅而且呢對台中市是非常非常重視學生的一個權益所以呢"},{"start":6960.632,"end":6988.42,"text":"對我來說您是我的學長所以在有些議題上我一定會尊重你那我也想有一些事情想跟你探討我想在這一次呢人民是頭家的一個宣講當中我們認同這是一個民主的一個活動那您也在現場對吧對那我們很可惜看到何新淳委員在提到了所謂的公費留學的相關獎學金因為刪減導致無法出國留學當下"},{"start":6989.56,"end":7012.926,"text":"我想你也在現場那你有跟他說這是錯誤的資訊嗎我當時沒有跟他碰到面他講因為我們在人很多那我當時應該是在宮廟裡面跟董事會在一起跟那個董建士在一起好沒關係那可是我要講的是說剛剛你也再一次的澄清這是一個錯誤的資訊包括阿柯智恩委員所提到的相關的一些培育國際人才的一些經費"},{"start":7013.906,"end":7027.856,"text":"還有公費留考舉辦的相關出國獎學金這些都是沒有任何刪一毛錢也沒有去凍結一毛錢而且還比去年還多那在這樣子的情況之下我想還有所謂的謠言當著"},{"start":7029.737,"end":7055.156,"text":"上百人在這邊直接宣講並且說了是藍白砍預算而導致了這個學生的權益受損我們是覺得非常的遺憾怎麼會有立法委員會直接在這樣子造謠那另外我想跟您詢問的是我們不只沒有刪預算在這一次我想賴清德總統有提到的所謂的青年百億海外圓夢計畫這個您知道嗎"},{"start":7058.786,"end":7079.764,"text":"您知道這個計畫嗎知道您知道這一次申請有多少人申請嗎我們是不是請青年署來講細節的部分我們請副署長好不好沒關係我想副署長我大概引述一下網路資料啦4437位爆量要來報名參與這一次的青年海外基金圓夢計畫對嗎對"},{"start":7081.485,"end":7100.336,"text":"沒錯 對吧我想不只是我們沒有三億毛錢沒有動億毛錢而在這一次青年海外基金圓夢計畫已經爆量參加我們看到了有這麼多的青年學子對於海外圓夢給予支持賴清德總統的一個政見"},{"start":7101.437,"end":7128.818,"text":"在實現的過程我想我們這些做立法委員只要是有利於我們的學子在未來的發展我們都給予支持所以我非常可惜學長市長在這一次所謂的人民是投家就針對這一點所謂的留學獎金被刪減導致無法出國留學的部分我們感到遺憾您可以承諾在這個所謂的及時澄清的網頁上趕緊將這一個"},{"start":7131.76,"end":7147.231,"text":"並不是事實的一個事件來做一個澄清嗎我想這個已經在我們的審查報告裡面都很清楚的提供了那我們也沒有辦法去對每一個網路的訊息或被引用的訊息那來一一澄清不過你提到的這個"},{"start":7148.352,"end":7176.649,"text":"蔣學金的部分我們會請國際司請這個相關業務單位來把這個審查的結果再次的跟外界來說明跟國人一起報告像我永遠都能夠同意網路資訊千萬種不可能每天都應對這些事情沒有這樣的能力但今天算是我們很緊密能夠就針對這件事情已經造成了某些國人的恐慌家長的恐慌"},{"start":7177.429,"end":7200.215,"text":"我說身為教育部應該有責任救委員所說的這個項目的審查的結果我們一定會說那針對性的我想我們不是我們不需要你在網頁上針對任何一個不用 你不用針對個人你就政策上的一個說明讓家長能夠適宜讓家長至少知道這件事情他們可以繼續申請這樣可以嗎可以好 謝謝"},{"start":7202.876,"end":7222.168,"text":"我想那另外我想跟次長探討2019年教育部就已經拟據了學校午餐條例這個草案並於同年4月3日公告期間4到6月也召開多次的公聽會跟座談會國教署也於112年成立了學校午餐科都已經準備好了但是6年6年過去了"},{"start":7224.529,"end":7250.181,"text":"這個什麼原因來催生六年的一個法案可以躺在行政院還是因為科的層級太低無法食材烹調食安運輸以及飲食的部分教育來面向的一個議題來做一個探討我想教育部的網站上我們可以看到112年12月28日的新聞稿還掛著教育部預計立法院下一個會期提出的學校午餐專法的一個草案部長"},{"start":7251.121,"end":7257.262,"text":"對不起 次長一年已經過去了到現在都還沒有看到剛剛你有提到已經有布板"},{"start":7258.188,"end":7287.066,"text":"月板什麼時候會通過那個謝謝委員給我機會來說明啦其實剛才萬委員也問同樣的問題那其實當時我也在當立法委員我很清楚當時教育部把專法這個教育部的專法的草案跟地方政府溝通的時候我們產生很多很多的問題譬如說第一個現在營養午餐的型態有公辦公營公辦民營有民辦民營他們各自規範也不一樣現在大概就是五十幾萬五十萬五十五萬大概供應一百六十萬人三種型態各三分之一這一個"},{"start":7288.027,"end":7311.058,"text":"第二個現在有10個縣市是採取營養午餐免費最便宜的42.5元我知道樣態不一樣馬祖最好75元是那你如何去訂一個專法讓這些縣市都要照我們的規範或者說要怎麼樣來形成一個這個其實是有困難我沒有改變我的立場我們還是希望孩子吃得好所以在這方面"},{"start":7311.678,"end":7335.101,"text":"吃的安全吃的好所以在這方面我們在質詢之後我當時也沒有提版本但是增加營養師啦增加張Q的費用啦增加弱勢孩童的這個偏鄉的廚房的補助我都支持也是這樣子所以教育部在109年到111年用專案的方式來補助花了75億所以我們都知道修一個法最重要是什麼資源投入嘛是"},{"start":7335.701,"end":7353.476,"text":"所以在這三年大家談到要用專法的這三年已經形成了一個很好的預算的投入就是每年74億包括弱勢偏鄉的孩子的補助21億每年中央廚房偏鄉的中央廚房15億包括食材張Q的補助38億"},{"start":7355.498,"end":7370.032,"text":"用可溯源的國產食材這個其實你在剛剛報告的時候都有講我有聽所以我說並不是專法沒有上路中央就不重視營養午餐並不是我就改變我的態度我覺得這個是我不能接受的原因謝謝我剛剛沒有說你改變啊好 謝謝"},{"start":7370.772,"end":7385.487,"text":"對吧我應該從頭到尾都沒有說吧謝謝那我也給你時間說明喔好謝謝剛剛您的一開始的報告也都有講到這包括相關的一些預算你們投入的一些經費但是我要講的是說已經六年了我們還是希望"},{"start":7386.307,"end":7398.514,"text":"不管是預算上剛剛其他的委員都很關心我們能夠有一個草案出來大家對於自愛難行的地方我們針對來討論你也提到了有公辦民營有相關的一些樣態我們要怎麼去針對各個樣態"},{"start":7401.536,"end":7416.622,"text":"去逐一的協助還有各個縣市有所謂的營養午餐免費有所謂營養午餐沒有免費有所謂補助比較高的有補助比較低的我們都一一的納入到這一個專法我覺得還是要多溝通啦"},{"start":7417.762,"end":7434.664,"text":"我們可以不能否認吧多溝通將它其納入我們不用說一定要改變它現有的樣態因為基本上還是要尊重縣市政府嘛那至於你後面說的因為某部分的法案有可能要地方來自籌的部分可以討論啊"},{"start":7435.805,"end":7464.944,"text":"今天不是說鐵板一塊大家不能討論嗎因為所謂財劃法現在有相關的我們的一些財源下放到地方要不要也下放一些相關的權利給地方應該要自己執行這是可以探討的啊對不對我們沒有說只要錢不要權利啊只要錢不要事啊我想這是一個不負責任的但是給了錢也要給相關的權利這是地方市政府應該也要因應的好請說我想就是這樣回答我們其實是非常同意羅委員這種說法你可以採納我的說法嗎"},{"start":7466.665,"end":7480.152,"text":"去年其實陸續辦了五場五場的這個諮詢會跟座談會跟地方政委探討所以在11月20已經把版本送到院了我剛才已經說明過了過了一個月之後才有辦法通過那事實上院在審查的時候就問我們說這個補助的經費"},{"start":7482.653,"end":7510.647,"text":"將來中央跟地方如何分攤所以我們是必要需要跟地方政府再去好好去探討這個事情好 這個我都能夠認同但是我想我們還是希望教育部在這個具體的一些採取實質措施推動專法的過程我們可以看到有更加的一些作為那今天報告寫到2019年4月3日公告2019年4月到6月召開多次的公聽會座談會請問是召開幾場你有沒有去你要現在打一次會後來 那個署長可以"},{"start":7511.687,"end":7531.095,"text":"大概幾場就好了我們召開四場以上會後可以提供資料那能不能提供教育部歷次召開公聽會跟座談會的會議紀錄我們明天中午以前好不好那個資料都給我們一下我想這篇報導新聞標題下得很好日本校園午餐成功的一個秘密每件小事都要管"},{"start":7531.795,"end":7556.467,"text":"每件小事都要管今天我們先還是要回到草案內容我們希望說到底我們為了什麼為了學生營養午餐的健康為了營養師我們來努力為了廚工我們來努力為了學校的體制我們來努力因為我們看到光是學校的營養午餐秘書真的非常的辛苦這個部分我們是不是每件小事都要管我希望我們的營養午餐的立法也是成功的甚至能夠"},{"start":7557.327,"end":7580.677,"text":"作為其他國家的一個借鏡另外在今年2月27日我們的監委田秋瑾蔡崇義發布的新聞稿各縣市學校午餐自治條例等不同法令的規章缺乏全國一致性的做法以學校午餐費用的為例各縣市補助的金額跟學生的餐費皆不相同"},{"start":7581.857,"end":7604.304,"text":"針對食材費用佔餐費的比例無強制的規範不但影響學生用餐的品質亦造成各縣市學生權益不平等的一個現象且學生若對學校午餐滿意度低落往往轉以零食飲料果腹國家投注的經費新力付諸流水"},{"start":7604.904,"end":7626.594,"text":"教育部有檢討改進的一個責任喔 我想 次長 監委的新聞稿啊以國家投注的經費付諸流水 次長我再講一次齁 監委用付諸流水付諸流水是什麼意思 就是浪費了我們再來看這張齁 監委的新聞稿 次長教育部在今年的預算增加300多億 營養午餐還是"},{"start":7629.255,"end":7657.305,"text":"沒有辦法可以把它辦理更好六 我們評比項目全書日韓到底是怎麼一回事 次長你覺得呢你講的那個部分很多是地方政府的落差啦我們會加強跟他們溝通好不好這個平常是還有很多包括食安的管理的問題那是屬於管理層次我們都會在這個以中央督導機關的角色好好跟地方溝通我想台灣的沒有比日韓差啦"},{"start":7657.925,"end":7679.962,"text":"那為什麼學生營養午餐的這個業務做的比日韓還差我們有必要去檢討更希望在這個專法的探討過程中有必要性我們要納入一起來把這個所謂的孩童的營養午餐能夠超越日韓政府所提供的這個服務還要更好我想在每人用餐的費用上台灣每餐餐費是40到60日本是125元當然我知道日本有所謂的我去過日本參觀他們的物價這個我們都知道"},{"start":7687.688,"end":7713.622,"text":"你也去參觀過他們的供給過程當然成本比較高我都能夠體諒但是我們不能夠去否認他們的確投注的金額是很敢給的那當然後續我們也希望能夠探討在專法未通過之前如何改善通過之後我們要如何在生效的時候準備起有相關的改善方案我們一起來加油為了孩子好謝謝委員的關心謝謝我相信以前你也是有一個口號"},{"start":7714.542,"end":7736.155,"text":"孩子就是未來我們一起在努力好不好一起努力可以嗎教育經費不要煽動就有增加300億了不要再說了有自愛男性的地方歡迎你提出追加預算你要解凍我們台中市一定做你的後盾你要解凍我們大家一起來努力可以嗎但是前提是把政策做好落實讓孩子更好謝謝"},{"start":7737.315,"end":7745.858,"text":"謝謝 謝謝委員關心 謝謝好 謝謝羅廷偉委員質詢好 官員請回座那我們接下來有請林佩祥委員繼續質詢好 謝謝主席 有請次長請次長備詢"},{"start":7763.137,"end":7791.82,"text":"林委員好市長本席是基隆市選區的立法委員那其實我記得沒有錯的話在2020年我們奧運的羽球拿到我們奧運的這個就是羽毛球拿到金牌的時候那個時候時任總統蔡英文說我們要有一個羽毛球的國手訓練中心在基隆市的基隆高中那現在後來2024年去年我們又得到了世界冠軍"},{"start":7792.981,"end":7812.555,"text":"那我就很好奇說,有兩任總統來去背書的這個羽球國手訓練中心在基隆,現在進度怎麼樣?那我請詳細進度,我請署長回答好不好?我也好,那關於此案呢,我們去年一整年的努力,那我們其實已經完成幕僚的作業,目前已經在行政院了。"},{"start":7813.015,"end":7833.828,"text":"好那如果可以有任何進度的話我會再跟院長來討論因為這個案子對於我們基隆人還蠻重要的不只是因為說基隆是一個相對來講這個羽都之外而且另外一方面這個現在羚羊配都已經變絕配了都已經拆夥了但是我們很尷尬的就是說我們要答應他們兩屆世界冠軍的這個羽球"},{"start":7835.689,"end":7854.229,"text":"國手訓練中心到目前還沒有有著落那其實讓所有關心羽毛球甚至關心體育的人其實認為這件事其實是蠻可惜的啦所以我希望說市長在這邊也可能跟內閣在那邊討論一下好 謝謝再來是有關我們今天才講到的這個學校公餐法"},{"start":7855.31,"end":7869.36,"text":"本席來自基隆所以在基隆在去年在過去兩年之間發生的主要有三件這個有關食安方面的這些議題那食安方面議題裡面有兩件本席覺得很值得來給我們這個"},{"start":7871.161,"end":7892.25,"text":"在這個學校公參法草案裡面來納入我們考量因為第一個是在2023年2月14號的時候因為有番茄它是裡面驗出來有這個未核准的農藥所以後來被校方給退貨然後並報到教育處裡面去而且後來發現說這個農藥上這個番茄上面居然用的是假的"},{"start":7899.494,"end":7919.408,"text":"那這點其實是蠻重要的第二件事情還有另外一個案子也跟這個食物我們未來食材的來源我們要加緊追蹤有關也就是在去年的11月8號居然有小朋友在吃學校午餐的梅干扣肉裡面不小心咬到兩公分的針頭"},{"start":7920.689,"end":7932.602,"text":"那這件事情後來我們去查明之後才知道說這個食物食材的來源商他在裝包進CAS的時候他並沒有經過金屬探測器"},{"start":7939.164,"end":7955.934,"text":"這兩個來源商嚴格講起來都不是基隆的廠商那變成是說教育處要直接去查也費了很大一番功夫我知道這個已經進入好像民法的這個狀態這個是一個食材管理的問題對那我也非常關心我們是不是請榮良署來解釋一下或者來他的瞭解好 請他先說明"},{"start":7958.099,"end":7980.078,"text":"針對這個QR Code的這個部分我們針對這個食材真實性這個部分也都有到校園裡面對這個食材去抽檢所以那個部分是我們有去主動去查出來的後續也會針對這個供應端這個部分去做追蹤的處分"},{"start":7981.072,"end":7999.279,"text":"我為什麼會把這個議題拿出來呢因為這個食材其實不是在基隆市當地而是這個食材他們所合格的廠商其實遍佈全國而且廠商其實沒幾個因為要符合我們營養午餐的標準其實營養午餐標準是相當嚴格的"},{"start":8000.279,"end":8016.769,"text":"但是尷尬的是說再怎麼嚴格都還是會出現狀況而這又是我們剛剛小羅委員直接講說孩子的未來不能等孩子是國家的未來那我們總不希望說孩子未來吃到的食物導致他們身心受創"},{"start":8018.47,"end":8039.617,"text":"所以在這個前提之下我會認為說在這一次的這個學校公參法草案在擬定的時候如果有行政院的版本請務必把這個tracking也就是所謂追溯食物來源追溯食材來源這件事情要納進去變成是中央政府的主責而不是讓地方政府來承擔因為地方政府"},{"start":8041.858,"end":8061.174,"text":"舉例基隆市我們只能查到基隆市的廠商如果是這兩件案子它的這個主這個食材供應商並不是來自基隆市而是來自台北市新北市那基隆市政府要透過其他機制透過其他平台去查這些東西的時候就變得相對困難而這一點這一點來講甚至這樣講"},{"start":8064.457,"end":8078.83,"text":"我們剛剛講的很明顯三章EQ但是三章EQ本來應該是在tomato是在番茄上面的結果卻是用在別的地方上面這樣三章EQ的管制是不是也有所謂的疏失呢所以這種種的方面來講"},{"start":8080.792,"end":8108.815,"text":"為了真的要保證我們食材的品質而且也要防止未來像剛剛這種老實講蠻可笑蠻可恨的事情發生而且我們也要追究責任老實講追究責任可能是最後面但是我們要防止未來這些事情發生甚至如果不合格的廠商他在環境上面還在各方面不行的時候我們必須在這之前在這次我們的學校公參法上面就直接修法把它列入中央的責任這樣子把這"},{"start":8109.295,"end":8137.445,"text":"把這個中央的法規放進去的時候所有整個業界才會跟著復合我們才會引起足夠的重視市長你認為是對的嗎委員我想你這個關係的角度非常好就是也證明了一個事情就是說其實我們本來就有三張EQ的制度那這個管理的問題執行的問題出了層面事實上我們即使納入法那個管理的部分也要落實那三張EQ就包括這個食品的檢驗的相關的制度我想龍娘署的這個代表"},{"start":8137.745,"end":8156.031,"text":"非常清楚你剛才提的問題為什麼會發生他是不是要來簡單說我會認為未來這主責單位不應該是地方教育署或教育局應該是所謂中央單位來去做主責因為這方面來講如果中央願意定這麼嚴格的標準那中央就要負起相應對的責任才是"},{"start":8158.203,"end":8159.585,"text":"我認為未來整個檢查食材的SOP必須很清楚"},{"start":8174.944,"end":8201.229,"text":"因為在地方的代理商或經銷商他不會去看到如果有CIS的認證之後然後他還去把它打開來拆開來重新再看說裡面有多少的裡面有多少東西再重新做檢驗這樣時間來講也是來不及的但是如果說我們在前頭SOP就做好 主則就做好那相對來講會讓中間在地方的經銷商或代理商能夠比較輕鬆的去處理這些食材對"},{"start":8202.689,"end":8219.055,"text":"對我想這個部分食材安全分工上面很清楚在源頭部分農業部會去針對張Q的使用做管理我想這個法因為我們今天討論是學校公差案這個要很明確主責跟SOP必須放在裡面這樣未來我們全國會有一致性的標準"},{"start":8225.718,"end":8239.371,"text":"今天發生在基隆這兩個案子未來有可能在我們不注意的時候發生在全國的小學裡面那這一點來講對於我們民意代表來說我覺得這個是我們必須強烈要求的案子"},{"start":8239.639,"end":8266.758,"text":"我想台灣的張Q其實非常嚴謹就是說他也會有抽查例行的抽查我所知道的抽查也會有罰那這個案件他主動發生了他們也會主動去罰就是說他的這個罰者是都有的而且都有名單張Q可以溯源他就是說可以知道是哪一家犯的就比以前好就是說他的張Q制度不管是CS也好或者是有機也好或者是可溯源的農產品也好這三張其實都是會透過那個QR code那個Q能夠連結所以他們"},{"start":8268.579,"end":8296.88,"text":"除了主動清查我必須要說市長這個問題是未來我希望說直接列入法裡面不是說未來我們解釋會發生什麼事情因為已經有冒用過了就表示有更多冒用過了以常理來講今天有一個冒用的例子就表示市面上有更多冒用的例子正在流傳而我們只是剛好沒有查到而已所以這件事我認為說主責SOP查清這三個事情必須放在法規放在這個法裡面既然我們要訂學校公參法"},{"start":8297.58,"end":8322.515,"text":"那我們就把這個放進去現在都有了現在這三個制度都有了那可能要嚴格執行那SOP也要嚴格執行主責單位不應該是地方不應該是地方證一起來跨部會合作最後一個小小的問題其實我還有一個蠻長的不過還有一個小小的問題請問一下國光獎章或獎金的分發辦法第17條已經多久沒有修了"},{"start":8323.547,"end":8348.744,"text":"你是說獎金的那個對 國光獎金我為什麼這樣問呢我們如果說要對於運動產業要對於運動產業來做推廣那運動產業的職業運動員最後面能夠代表國家能夠在跟國際之間競爭應該是最高的榮耀很多人跟我很多人說過中華隊或是國家代表隊的那個球衣是很重的"},{"start":8349.224,"end":8363.221,"text":"甚至有人寧願不幫美國打19歲以下的國家代表隊會願意回來幫我們台灣打但是這個前提的話最近我就問一個職業運動員說那他們有什麼需要我們幫忙講的他說最小的一個"},{"start":8364.71,"end":8387.427,"text":"目前國光獎金是用點數來去算的不到50點不准發放那如果剛好有一些國手是在不到50點是在一個點數一個點數值在30點左右他整個職業他整個國手生涯就結束的話那想請問他們這個獎金1.1萬塊的國光獎金是否還能拿得到呢我請那個署長來說"},{"start":8388.376,"end":8403.75,"text":"報告委員那個是早期的制度了現在已經不是這樣子了那現在是怎麼樣呢現在就是針對他的運動成就我們直接就是發放這個獎金所以就是如果他是有能夠如果他是支持上我想您的那個那位陳青仁的個案他應該是很多年前好"},{"start":8404.29,"end":8413.82,"text":"在這個案子它整個法的更新之前的一個案例委員如果有個案可以直接來因為國手來講的話如果我們正要推廣運動產業我那時候在國事論壇也特地幫我們的運動員發聲幫退休的運動員發聲那如果我們要給他們一個標杆幫國家來去出戰各個競賽的運動員應該更受到重視是 謝謝一句話嘛"},{"start":8427.153,"end":8455.268,"text":"錢給的不夠心受委屈了那我們台灣的運動市場並沒有像美國日本來的大但是我們基本的尊重有時候很悲哀的現金也是一種基本的尊重如果連這點都不給的話甚至在本來在我記得聽說有保險都出問題的時候其實這樣對於整個運動的風氣就很不好那我希望說我們今天張亮市長是負責運動的那我希望您跟國體署可以在未來在運動產業的發展上面注意這一點"},{"start":8455.768,"end":8476.306,"text":"好,謝謝委員的關心,我們會努力,謝謝好,謝謝林沛翔委員的諮詢,關心請回座好,現在有請葛如君委員諮詢"},{"start":8484.09,"end":8487.651,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請教育部次長有請次長次長好我想我們剛剛都看到了我希望能夠跟您確定一件事請問教育部是提出問題的人還是解決問題的人解決問題的是嗎"},{"start":8510.618,"end":8535.304,"text":"所以我相信我們希望用這樣的精神來看待我們遇到的各種狀況這些問題可能會來自於現在的教育前線也可能來自於我們的學校也可能來自於這個各種各種的情況我們也希望教育部是以本著解決問題的心態我們來討論那首先跟你討論一件事就是最近的這個已經不只是問題了這已經造成恐慌了"},{"start":8536.084,"end":8539.086,"text":"剛剛有非常多委員也都問了所以我想就是一個案件出現在網路上可以說是被到處的流傳我相信教育部也非常困擾我們有一些其他政黨的委員提出了很多的轉貼提出了很多的追加的詢問說這個事情很可怕這個東西會影響到我們的學生會影響到我們的教育"},{"start":8565.666,"end":8574.81,"text":"那我想剛剛這個部長有這個也說明了這個相關的獎學金留學預算應該教育部是沒有刪減的對嗎"},{"start":8577.083,"end":8603.863,"text":"目前是是那也謝謝教育部有提供一個這樣的一個文書讓我們可以比較清楚明確的知道這個我們相關的教育部的獎學金的編列呢並無刪減也沒有凍結但是就像我們剛剛看到的我們說教育部應該是要來幫忙解決問題的不應該讓問題持續甚至擴散所以我想請教一下部長您剛剛我們有看到"},{"start":8605.945,"end":8633.584,"text":"這個我們的這個即時澄清還停留在好幾年前都沒有更新那現在這個應該澄清了剛剛可能時間不夠啦那這個案件是澄清的狀況是什麼能不能簡短的說明一下就像委員所拿到的這個書函我們將這個內容對你們有說有去了解這個這個案件嘛因為這個個案所指是什麼因為上個新聞我們從我們的預算科目是看到這個個案我是期待你們剛剛有說有去對個案進行了解"},{"start":8634.424,"end":8651.154,"text":"那這了解以後他到底是誰是哪一個縣市他是什麼樣的部會的預算經過刪減這到底存不存在這個人有沒有了解我們沒有辦法去查到這個因為新聞有出來媒體有出來那媒體查證是否屬實這個教育部如何等一下 部長 次長"},{"start":8652.455,"end":8675.431,"text":"有學生的權益疑似受損了市長不需要去了解一下嗎委員剛才你提的是說叫我去查證嘛那我們查證的預算的部分確實沒有刪除也跟委員回覆了你預算沒有刪減謝謝你們說明啊有學生權益受損我就問您學生權益受損教育部有沒有責任去協助當然有責任"},{"start":8675.811,"end":8688.36,"text":"有沒有責任要去了解請問這個狀況他到底是誰存不存在哪一個預算影響到他有嗎我們當然有去了解但是這個部分就不是這個部分對所以我希望他來說明嘛對"},{"start":8696.044,"end":8720.243,"text":"我想這個情況我們也是看到新聞出來那我們有去了解這個新聞的源頭並沒有指明是教育部的獎學金我不是 對不起 這個我們都清楚了第一 這個事件存不存在第二 有沒有這個人第三 你們有沒有去詢問這個學生的權益是否真的受損因為其他的哪些原因"},{"start":8721.224,"end":8749.776,"text":"有沒有 有或沒有 不好意思我們的學生不會受到影響是因為我們的經費都已經是確定這名學生是沒有揭露任何訊息的只是依據新聞的報載教育部有沒有責任了解我問到現在你們現在就是把問題放在那裡嘛然後老闆就說喔 跟我無關我們沒有刪減 凍結我當然很謝謝你們說明啊學生如果真的存在學生有權益受準了"},{"start":8751.225,"end":8773.531,"text":"這不是教育部的範圍嗎因為這個新聞所揭露的對象的背景真的太模糊了您知道那個老師的名字有出現嗎對嘛 有沒有出現請後面的同仁說明 有沒有出現報告委員 這名老師的後來後來他自己也有說明不是教育部的老師對不起 我還是在說 請問"},{"start":8775.712,"end":8792.945,"text":"我們已經知道謝謝再三的說明不是教育部的預算刪減動情有學生的權益受損教育部要不要去了解關心嗎這麼簡單的問題我想還是跟委員說明像我們公費報考的人數不一定是學生"},{"start":8794.269,"end":8808.611,"text":"所以他有可能是在職中或者是其他的已經就業的其他部會或者是什麼各種各樣的所以只要不是學生他出國就學就跟我們的這個教育部完全沒有任何關係嗎確定嗎"},{"start":8812.196,"end":8812.757,"text":"他已經在網路上求救啦"},{"start":8828.337,"end":8831.919,"text":"沒有關係我覺得這種態度全國民眾都看到了我們的教育部設定了各種的可能性說我們教育部不用理解我們的部分我們澄清了你還說他也許不是學生至少你聽到你同仁的說法嗎有沒有確認他是不是學生沒有被刪除的 沒有影響的"},{"start":8849.511,"end":8869.651,"text":"但是剛才這個提到的是說因為其他部會也有或許像外交部啦國科會啦或者是其他部會是有的就跟你們無關這個不是跟我們無關就是說我們比較難那如果他是學生受到影響就跟你們有關嘛你們就沒有去了解啊我們去了解他就說不是教育部的預算嘛那我們怎麼去了解"},{"start":8870.39,"end":8883.695,"text":"他如果是透過外交部拿到預算我覺得您這樣子在做解釋是完全國人是無法接受我剛剛已經問您了如果他是學生權益受到影響教育部要不要去理解"},{"start":8885.509,"end":8895.356,"text":"然後你現在又在跟我講說教育部預算沒有被刪所以它跟我們無關沒有關係這個問題沒有關係沒關係你現在在講說這個神秘人物你們沒有責任了解沒關係我問次長一個非常明確的問題已經有三位立法委員在為這個題目在哭窮在喊窮那我想請問次長"},{"start":8912.464,"end":8929.677,"text":"這三位委員 何新淳委員 郭育琴委員 林俊憲委員他們都非常關心請問現在教育部說了不是你們的預算煽動請問這個問題答案應該非常明確的請問教育部有沒有主動對這三位委員進行說明我們如果委員要求我們會跟他說明"},{"start":8939.153,"end":8962.302,"text":"所以教育部的態度就是我們任由所有的問題漂流在整個社會上然後有委員以不實的這種暗示然後教育部就說如果有人叫我們去說明我們再說明請問我就問市長您覺得這樣態度是對的嗎委員我們尊重你的發言權但是我們教育部也不是留言"},{"start":8963.743,"end":8982.996,"text":"那個澄清中心你說任何人的一個訊息揭露有限欸 對不起 市長市長我們這裡看到的是三位立法委員都提出這個問題喔他們在網路上提出教育部沒有預算的煽動教育部沒有責任去說明解釋嗎有立法委員可能有這樣的誤會"},{"start":8983.897,"end":8997.545,"text":"不用說明解釋嗎我們已經就這部分解釋了嘛所以我說有沒有去向立法委員的辦公室說明解釋有沒有發文 有沒有通電話有或沒有 請次長回應沒有 目前沒有"},{"start":9001.877,"end":9026.897,"text":"我覺得這個我不用指示我們是詢答我想教育部該做什麼你們應該比我更清楚所以我想這個不用我們來說請各位官員同仁都非常清楚接下來我想這個謝謝次長我們還是要再次感謝教育部的同仁真的是告訴我們這就不是你們的山洞但是我跟次長"},{"start":9028.322,"end":9055.132,"text":"同步一下我覺得這樣的一個方式這些訊息在外面流傳我覺得對於教育部在處理公費或者相關留學獎金的同仁情何以堪啊情何以堪啊外部有一大堆這樣的誤會結果我們的教育部是以一個非常被動的方式在澄清我替教育部的同仁報不平情何以堪"},{"start":9056.564,"end":9077.085,"text":"那我們再來看這個相關的這個營養午餐我們也都很明確的說出來剛剛也非常多委員來提供了資訊那監察委員的這個事情我想剛剛也都提過了那我只想問其實這裡面有提到的一些問題是關於這個食材登錄平台的缺失"},{"start":9078.413,"end":9107.965,"text":"那我想我們剛剛回到啦教育部希望是一個解決問題的人所以呢我們這裡也提供您一個解決問題的可能性啦其實有很多的這個食材都是重複登錄甚至是假登錄那現在已經有很多的科技拍張照就可以上傳哪些食材多少熱量什麼樣的營養可能可以來協助所以我想我們的這個教育部的相關食材登錄平台如果要改進要編列預算我們會支持有沒有機會來了解一下用科技的方式來優化它"},{"start":9108.365,"end":9135.513,"text":"我想委員的建議非常好我們會將委員的意見導入將來的合作計畫我們盡量來優化現在這個AI時代更好的一個優化的登錄平台是 那我想營養不足的問題剛剛都討論過很多了那我想食安在校園裡面我們應該要重視之外現在竟然還跑出一個水安有大學有這個用水安全的問題說有某間大學的自來水存在本超標64倍"},{"start":9137.794,"end":9151.222,"text":"那我們有看到啦其實教育部說這個可能是環境部啊等等的問題我想請教次長這個有沒有去進行譬如說普查或者有沒有提出預先的一些措施去確認這個問題不會出現在其他學校"},{"start":9155.587,"end":9179.149,"text":"這部分我想委員如果關心我們會來了解因為我看到委員提到的是水管老舊的問題那事實上這幾年我所知道台水不斷在更新那更新之後牽管的問題現在都已經改成我當過委員我知道我們都協助過現在都是那種不鏽鋼的是比較好的"},{"start":9179.409,"end":9193.247,"text":"那這幾年編列經費相當多那大學的部分我想它有在社區裡面或者它內部裡面如果有這方面的疑慮的話我們當然會一併來關心那我剛才看到的這個新聞應該是在十年前左右"},{"start":9194.195,"end":9221.913,"text":"不是 我們這個是提供給您的解決方案我不是來攻擊您的我們是說以前發生類似的問題其實相關部會是可以有因應措施我想請教次長一個問題次長難道要等到有學生在校園裡面水中毒了教育部才要來處理嗎當然不是嘛對 如果委員見我們一定會來關心這一點所以是不是評估一下如何來確認大學或者是校園的用水安全"},{"start":9222.513,"end":9240.059,"text":"這個相關的做法可不可以提供一個報告好我們會跟大選端來聯絡來問他們這方面是不是已經有在關心有在處理好主席抱歉我最後一個時間非常短就是這個私立國中入取率偏低非常多家長在說那請教次長您覺得主要問題是什麼"},{"start":9242.12,"end":9262.355,"text":"這個問題我想因為時間的關係希望市長可不可以有相關的書面報告提出來那我在這裡要表達本席對這樣的狀況我不預設立場但是我們認為公立學校裡面有非常優秀非常認真的老師跟學生這種訊息在外面流傳"},{"start":9263.095,"end":9285.735,"text":"如果教育部不去很清楚的知道原因的話對於這些人來說是非常不公平的對於辦學的形象對教育部來講也不是很好所以請教育部長針對這個問題做一個報告讓社會大眾了解目前的這個中學的公私立業這個狀況所面臨的問題原因到底是什麼是不是可以提出好我想我請那個署長來"},{"start":9287.268,"end":9303.14,"text":"謝謝文的關心我們會跟各主管機關包含台北市各縣市還包含本署的各有關私校一起來努力謝謝文提醒謝謝那請次長研議看怎麼樣來讓公立的學校我們提升競爭力重建整個社會的信心謝謝好 謝謝趙偉的關心 謝謝好 謝謝葛禄君委員"},{"start":9316.749,"end":9323.371,"text":"好 謝謝 接著繼續進行質詢請林怡瑾委員 林怡瑾召委質詢謝主席 有請張亮次長有請次長備質詢 謝謝召委好次長好"},{"start":9337.412,"end":9342.977,"text":"吃得好 吃得健康我想不想直接影響我們孩子成長的狀況當然也影響各學生在各方面的表現所以正確的飲食跟健康觀念是跟著一個人一輩子的資產所以國家絕對有積極投資的必要"},{"start":9357.23,"end":9372.22,"text":"那所以在上一屆立委任期我們本席就有提出這個學校飲食法的草案這屆再提那不斷要求教育部要跟上腳步那我知道我們暢言那麼久教育部也準備那麼久終於有機會要端出演藝成果的時候"},{"start":9375.882,"end":9392.62,"text":"突然殺出個所謂的新版的才化法三毒從中央拿走了3700多億到地方那我們不知道說有哪些原本中央負責出錢辦理的事務那應該是跟著移轉到地方去辦理"},{"start":9394.141,"end":9419.397,"text":"讓許多的施政跟建設都處在一個不確定的狀況之下好那實際上教育部辦理營養午餐的業務每年本來就有固定的支出就誠如您剛剛的報告中央補助21億的午餐費那針對採用這個國產可受人食材中央是補助38億那針對偏鄉中學校的中央廚房的建置中央是補助15億"},{"start":9420.638,"end":9437.99,"text":"共計74億而且這是每年喔那原本由中央辦理的營養午餐的業務我們隨著這個新版的財化法上路那是否會移交到地方去那我們今天來談營養午餐專法那各委員的版本都有一些加碼的支出啦"},{"start":9438.49,"end":9467.99,"text":"那推估起來那應該也有26億那所以這個所謂的如果說這個營養午餐的專法如果真的通過之後那很可見的就是說整個的費用要有100億以上如果是中央來負責的話那好那現在因為這個才化法出來了那所以中央跟地方要如何劃分這些我們都不知道所以未來分工不清楚的時候我要請教次長第一個是要叫我們把法案重新都撤回嗎"},{"start":9469.531,"end":9489.609,"text":"那不然就是說 好 那教育部應該就是要積極的跟地方政府溝通好 那溝通了沒 有時間溝通嗎因為才化委也剛通過那地方政府的態度是怎樣那如果我們還沒有跟地方政府好好的溝通聯繫那我們今天談這個營養午餐的專法的所謂的加碼不是都空談嗎 次長你怎麼覺得"},{"start":9490.93,"end":9516.577,"text":"我想謝謝委員的關心其實事實上就是會遇到這樣子的一個難題就是說我們當然很希望每年這種74億的補助都能夠繼續然後這個修法的部分增加了26億中央也有財力來負擔我們一樣修法也買單那其實剛才署長跟我說其實不只是每年固定加碼的費用超過100億就是有關這個午餐專法"},{"start":9517.017,"end":9534.771,"text":"上路跟上路之前我們已經陸陸續續透過學校衛生法各種制度已經增加了74億每年的補助那如果說再增加26億最少那還有餐費餐費聽說還120億左右所以這個部分其實我們就是說在去年"},{"start":9535.771,"end":9558.987,"text":"各界的注意這關心下包括柴北部分黨派大家都希望趕快立專法所以我們也在去年大概有五次的這個座談諮詢然後在11月20做成佈板送院那一個月之後會遇到裁判法所以裁判法的衝擊那個政院方面要求我們做評估那在評估的過程裡面我們就發現說那這個中央午餐"},{"start":9560.607,"end":9571.733,"text":"這個營養午餐它的這個這個制度法地方制度法規範好像是地方的權責這是在很無奈的狀況下必須去檢討你說營養午餐是地方的國民中小學我想我剛才講的補助都是國民中小學居多啦那這部分我們怎麼樣子來跟地方政府再談洽談我們會盡快就是說這部分如果因為現在那個新版的裁判法已經上路那地方政府是不是願意就"},{"start":9587.221,"end":9593.545,"text":"過去已經補助的每年的74億做一些負擔然後新增的部分他們是願不願意負擔那假如都願意的話我們在這邊修這個法那個將來的權益義務可能也要一起來談那這樣子會比較能夠不去破壞到那個完整性"},{"start":9605.413,"end":9630.535,"text":"那我們現在光是裁判法上路之後如果中央跟地方的權責不釐清將來負擔不釐清我們怎麼樣去保有孩子能夠至少這個74億不要動對於教育部國教署來講已經是一個非常頭痛的問題在裁判法上路之後那我們在心情上在修法大家講得很高興充滿理想熱情跟我以前當立委也一樣對不對"},{"start":9631.516,"end":9651.358,"text":"那但是我們如何真的去增加這個經費然後這個經費是誰要來出所以這個不講清楚坦白講這個專法又會遇到新的問題過去的專法在很難整合就是說那個制度都不同有的地方是免費的有的地方是這個家長付費的有些部分呢是這個中央補助的"},{"start":9652.239,"end":9680.542,"text":"那在這種狀況下我們好不容易形成一個專法有一些共識了可是這個現在很大的一個問題就是說那這個錢錢講起來很傷感情但是是最實際的我們中央地方怎麼樣的來來釐清這個權利跟義務我覺得這個恐怕我們必須要先去談了有一初步結果對於再進一步的把這個法請院方那邊來就是我們中央政府要好好的跟地方政府來談詳細我可以再請署長來補充"},{"start":9683.765,"end":9698.597,"text":"就是在溝通的過程中在108以來有三個問題那有偏鄉的問題有人力的問題有餐費的問題那因為這個問題不好整合但是我們又不能等所以在109開始就先解決剛才講的三個問題的第一個問題先把偏鄉做處理"},{"start":9702.68,"end":9712.53,"text":"雖然沒有專法很難整合但是我們還是跨出去做了偏鄉的處理投資63億做了解決而後年度為了偏鄉每年15億加計剛才講的59億全部加起來每年從111年開始每年74億那新法修了之後不含餐費就要增加26億含餐費"},{"start":9723.3,"end":9742.171,"text":"要達到兩百二十億所以不含餐費的話一百億含餐費要高達到兩百二十億這個得要好好跟地方政府一起來了解地方政府拿到了這些才化法的裁員之後有沒有能力跟他會怎麼規劃我們想要保障學生的權益所以制度上得要談清楚以上跟委員補充好 就是說如果這個談清楚之後那分配的比例也清楚了可能這個法這個院版的這個法才能成熟"},{"start":9750.876,"end":9779.074,"text":"譬如說我們要加碼對不對 營養師要加碼那加碼的錢是地方出還是中央出地方要補助多少像是植蜜啊 午餐植蜜啊 或是營養師啊等等 對不對所以家 對孩子好 我們都支持啦基本上方向都支持但是我們必須要為政策負責所以就必須要去講說這個問題怎麼解決那也請你們技術要談啦 好不好OK那另外 再來回到我們今天另外一個主題就是運動產業發展條例喔那本席剛提出版本"},{"start":9779.414,"end":9783.976,"text":"那當然這次主要是要修正26之2就是說有關於企業捐贈職業或業餘運動業或重點運動賽事免稅額的部分那現行的法規是2021我們修正的嘛那時候就是可以抵稅150%那當時本席也有參與修法"},{"start":9796.82,"end":9801.003,"text":"張亮 萬堅 當事委員也有一起那個時候其實我們是主張一開始我們是主張250%那因為我們先求有再求好的原則之下那財政部一直哀哀叫所以我們就用150%上路那過了三年了那現在時機成熟了嗎"},{"start":9816.593,"end":9821.478,"text":"那署長還是次長過了三年了就是說150%變成250%有沒有機會委員我想你知道我的心裡是期待的但是部會就是議題大家還在溝通那我們也希望"},{"start":9832.509,"end":9853.525,"text":"其實我們現在看到的數據每年底稅的大概額度3年了大概從11億左右去年好像11億前年10億那職業運動大概去年底的10億那當時協商的時候門檻是可以到30億那為什麼會沒有辦法用到那麼多可能有一些結構的因素那看法也不太一樣這個問題我必須承認"},{"start":9854.286,"end":9866.032,"text":"但是我們還是希望運動部上路之後為了優化運動產業的經營我們當然希望在租稅優惠方面能夠爭取到更大的一個額度那這部分我們是財政部有代表來"},{"start":9866.991,"end":9890.01,"text":"我們是不是要請他們對啊因為體育署是說如果根據這個專戶的運作來看受證金額最多只到11億嘛那沒有達到上限30億所以稅水影響其實有限的啊那加上我們運動部再來要掛牌所以整體的運動產業要大爆發的時候所以這個時候如果不把"},{"start":9891.451,"end":9907.458,"text":"減免銀索稅的額度調到250%那增加這個動機讓更多企業投入運動產業那要更待何時所以這個時候是更加把握的時候對不對對 我想委員的關心有一定的這個一定會有一定的效果"},{"start":9908.838,"end":9931.05,"text":"所以我想再請大家努力如果說250%當然這是我們心目中的願想如果財政部還是有很大很大的意見那您覺得有什麼折衷的方案嗎我想這個是列入我們院的優先法案所以這部分我們會再來研商"},{"start":9931.69,"end":9946.421,"text":"那因為委員的版本相當多朝野也都有一些不同黨派也有相同的提案所以這部分我們會持續來討論也會尊重委員的意見那我再請教一下因為之前體育署有說財政財政部要在3月14號開會討論這個議題那到底討論的狀況如何我們請財政部來說明好不好"},{"start":9958.235,"end":9963.537,"text":"跟委員報告目前的現在的現行法是那個費用加成就是150嘛那150其實相當於說企業他捐贈100塊裡面有30是政府補助就政府補助的比例已經達三成其實這個是補助比例很高啦"},{"start":9975.62,"end":9997.847,"text":"那因為企業捐贈的對象是企業他自己決定的那政府已經配合企業他捐70塊政府已經出了30塊這個比例很高那是不是要再提高我們可以再跟這個教育部大家再一起再來談過可是他背後所創造的產值那是不是這樣子的來計算的好你說像我再簡單說一下像說我們因為改成150所以我們職棒變了6對這個我想知道市長最清楚"},{"start":10003.809,"end":10017.115,"text":"那多了台鋼雄鷹在六支隊伍之後那你看整個職棒蓬勃發展那特別是我們又拿到十二強的第一我想這個都是因為有六隊然後整個的效應所產生的所以不要簡單看這個"},{"start":10019.256,"end":10031.821,"text":"表面上的碎損這個背後創出了產值包括我們現在有大巨蛋也有我們台南的亞太棒球村那未來因為球場的這個規模變大然後大家球迷湧進那整個創造出來的產值包括我們亞太棒球村也有讓韓職來春訓那個整個產值大家來看韓星的啦"},{"start":10041.244,"end":10070.604,"text":"將來有試對未來會有試對Okinawa本來是日值韓值的最佳春訓基地那他們的產值一年是上百億的那可是我們開始慢慢在經營這一塊我覺得我們未來有可能會超過Okinawa因為我們的條件都比他們更好所以我想啊就是說財政部要拜託您就是說不要看表面上的稅損或者說國家先補助多少我覺得那個背後所創造出來的產值的那個稅才是更驚人的啦"},{"start":10072.145,"end":10088.881,"text":"我們會跟財政部還有企業投資的這些企業團體來找個機會一起來溝通因為我們會盡快因為這個部門署這邊已經準備要提了那目前因為沒有共識所以我們就是用尊重立委提案的方式將來也會併審來討論OK 好 謝謝次長 謝謝署長 謝謝昭偉好 謝謝 謝偉"},{"start":10095.987,"end":10103.669,"text":"謝謝林警召委的諮詢 這個官員請回座那接著繼續進行質詢 請劉書斌委員質詢有請廖安章監次長"},{"start":10126.117,"end":10152.274,"text":"委員好市長好我要向你說聲學長好我們剛才從草野的立委上面的關於營養午餐的說明或是在詢答當中發現到大家可以看到有一些火花但是很重要的是我們全部的都是在為我們的新年就是什麼的學齡的學童這邊來做"},{"start":10155.616,"end":10176.637,"text":"做他們的健康啊還包括的是在地的食材等等的健康還有國民健康這些去做服務那現在這個情況之下我們現在想問到問題的是在於看到我們在看下一頁因為看到很多的爭執是在於說在下一頁我新增的那一部分在於說因為是財化法還有"},{"start":10177.833,"end":10187.404,"text":"包括還有就是中央政府的預算這邊因為上個禮拜行政院提出來之後呢當然他的附議是沒有通過的是被否決的然後這邊沒有確定而導致的當初"},{"start":10190.885,"end":10198.673,"text":"教育部在11月的時候有提出來的版本送部之後送行政院的情況之下結果就因為這個變數出現了繼續跟地方政府溝通我們也看到一件很重要的事情是在於說"},{"start":10211.907,"end":10223.578,"text":"市長你這邊所說的是說財務的這部分因為才能把總原來目前已經有這個補助是到74億嘛對不對然後最多最多一直在對一直在增加的話可能會到達220億嘛對不對那如果這個情況下因為我剛剛聽到一個結果很重要是說這個"},{"start":10229.784,"end":10243.337,"text":"因為各地在做營養午餐的差異性是有縣市裁員還有偏鄉供應的問題那這種情況之下是不是在於這個本質的性質是比較屬於地方性的"},{"start":10244.58,"end":10259.641,"text":"對 營養午餐其實從地方制度法來看尤其是國民中小學屬於國民教育階段本來就屬於地方的選擇對 那如果在這個情況之下在目前通過的財政收支劃分法當中增加的是3000"},{"start":10262.504,"end":10287.076,"text":"753億的這個情況之下地方財政授權法法地方多了3753億的情況之下如果這個市權可以獲得就是確認就是他多了這個情況之下他事實上有多了財源去做這邊的關於新增的在如果我們訂了這個專法之後在對營養午餐的供給上有個法源讓他們更有資源去做這些事情包括的是營養師包括的是"},{"start":10290.919,"end":10308.533,"text":"這個執行的秘書嘛是不是就有比較多的對我懂委員的意思就說我們必須要再找地方政府來協商而且可能每個地方政府對於所獲配的財源會不同的態度願意負擔的比例跟原則也不一所以這就是很困難的地方譬如說"},{"start":10309.513,"end":10330.807,"text":"金門馬祖他們最近好像花蓮有比較多那他們願不願意我們過去補助偏向很多那他們願不願意多來提撥一些經費這些新增的這個稅收來源來做補助如果他們願意我們都很高興那我們中央這邊我們會如果我們在配置上能夠少一些那我們減少的部分可以減掉"},{"start":10332.048,"end":10344.883,"text":"我們也可以馬上就這個法的精神來請他們一起來努力來達成那可能有些縣市他可能覺得我們過去偏鄉比較多中央補助很多那我們貨配的財源不夠我們不希望中央斷了這個補助"},{"start":10347.065,"end":10372.153,"text":"所以這個部分其實是有一些複雜度要去討論那真的還需要時間就是說我們也不曉得就是說環境上的變化形勢上的變化會這樣子一關過一關不過就是剛才我們所強調的不管是弱勢兒童的補助 營養午餐的補助中央廚房偏鄉計畫的補助改善或者是食材 可溯源的國產食材的補助其實我們每年都繼續在補助"},{"start":10373.433,"end":10400.803,"text":"那我們真的很希望今年都還在預算內那明年不要因為財化法而有了這個問題那地方又不願意負擔那這個就會變成孩子被丟包我想財化法的衝擊不應該是這樣它目的是希望中央地方有一個均衡的財源地方有一些自主的財源可是這個就真的要談到權利跟義務就是說有比較多的自主財源的權利你就有一些義務那這個部分坦白講"},{"start":10401.403,"end":10429.877,"text":"要從教育部的角度來談這個事情也不容易談好 但是我現在想要說的是從市長你的這個想法出來的時候就在於說的確的這個事情上面看起來是要經過的裁劃法我們現在的預算中央政府總預算通過之後當然就要看的是行政院他們的態度在十天之內是不是就公布生效或是說他要在可是不管怎樣 十天之內他要去做在做憲法訴訟 當然都沒關係反正他市長"},{"start":10431.097,"end":10448.892,"text":"時間真的會生效嗎?對那知道這個情況之下可是他一旦生效的時候就是必須會做除非他都被暫時處分等等所以可能也沒有那麼快但是重點是在於說我們今天要召開這樣子的一個尋答最重要的目的是說想要問的問題是確定應該是有必要去遞定這個專法嗎?對不對?"},{"start":10450.433,"end":10458.14,"text":"我們希望能夠定但是遇到的問題也必須解決現實上必須面對事實上就定我們現在在目前的情況下我們本黨也提出了我們本黨的意見我想要就因為後來進入到修法委員會的審查法的精神我們會繼續討論那非常好那我就想說如果在以"},{"start":10475.194,"end":10493.773,"text":"以現在的我們預計說要通過的情況下尤其是責任已經是放到地方政府上面去他事實上裁員多了三千多億的情況之下您剛所說的這個部分的擔憂其實我覺得是替教育部減輕了很多負擔所以應該您要比較輕鬆但是架構這是甜蜜的負擔補助給學生是甜蜜的負擔這問題是現實上"},{"start":10498.666,"end":10526.901,"text":"如果沒有辦法去對所以這個就必須要靠法律上面透過這個架構法當中去做一下規範那我就想要進入到實質的部分想要針對我們民眾黨所提出來這個部分因為目前的知道的是在這個國中小這邊是有百分之百在公立學校是這個支柱那我現在想我們民眾版的版本當中是把它提到的是說高中以下的部分那您的對這個如果高中生也納入到說可以受惠在營養午餐本您有什麼看法"},{"start":10528.002,"end":10549.182,"text":"我們訂的布板的法其實就只高中以下就很在高中但是坦白講現在問題比較多的是國民中小學因為你知道高中生的用餐他們自主性比較強你看那些建中北一女的那個中午的時候很多那個Uber Eats他們就是自己訂餐然後自己去福利社去買他們比較不太願意但有些像地方"},{"start":10549.642,"end":10564.623,"text":"他是高中國中是完全中學他們也會辦可是你就會發現高中生參加的比例比較低啦那這部分我們認為國中小以當時中央的裁員補助地方來講那當然是以國中小優先所以我們才會在大家的關心下從108年到現在"},{"start":10566.425,"end":10589.964,"text":"其實每年陸續的補助經費在精進項目在增加然後也繼續就管理的部分有漏洞的部分我們也增加了很多的費用來讓這個相關的權責單位能夠有有工具讓這個管理更好 思安更好好 可是現在如果財化法這個真的生效之後這個部分大部分的都是屬於縣市的學校嘛對不對所以我說財化法沒有經過討論就做這樣子坦白講我們很難去"},{"start":10594.608,"end":10610.786,"text":"不會 我是先替你我們一起來共同想辦法就在於說因為除了國立的這樣子的一個學校高中之外其實很多是屬於縣立縣市的基隆那這種情況之下的時候他有的財源他更可以去操作所以這部分就涉及授權的"},{"start":10611.887,"end":10633.113,"text":"像台北市他可能採訪法之後他會增加四百、四、五百億嘛我看到,我不知道這不是謠言嘛,這個看到的那個表是這樣那他可能我們這個對於這個他們的孩子吃的本來就我看他們那個條件標準就比其他縣市還好他一餐可能到七十幾塊、八十幾塊,甚至有的聽說到上百那在這種狀況下,在補助的比例上面我們將來要怎麼談,就是說我們那沒有關係"},{"start":10636.314,"end":10655.049,"text":"那個次長我就先講到最後我很高興聽到說教育部的佈板當中就是有提到說把高中的上去有含高中就非常好那第二個部分呢我想要談的是說在這個公餐的形態當中因為您剛才也說了去年已經開了好幾次的公廳會這個部分那目前還是以"},{"start":10655.989,"end":10675.223,"text":"自設廚房為主但其他的部分還有鄰近學校供應中央廚房或是民營的團善的供應這種情況我們在想說在有意見當中是對民營的這個團善的供應當中的情況它事實上好像它只遇到所謂的統餐跟合餐"},{"start":10675.983,"end":10694.759,"text":"在這個地方就是因為財源的不足才有需要可是它在運送的時候可能有些問題就是它的穩定性和安全性所以在這種情況之下我們繼續說要把民營的部分把它拉進去把法律的明確性讓它有多元的前提在草原的情況之下您認為這部分"},{"start":10695.439,"end":10711.394,"text":"有這樣多元的情況第四點我們要加入用合約的方式來去規範您覺得如何委員去學法律非常清楚我們在共同供應契約裡面有詳定各種包括運送過程裡面它如果被計點點數多少要罰多少錢我想都非常詳細我個人非常關心其實我參觀過很多這個公辦這個民營的那個"},{"start":10715.617,"end":10743.217,"text":"參和業者他們的公餐情況我們都實際上考察了那也去了解了那所以包括我也到日本去日本就純粹的公辦名言那他們把關一樣都很嚴格其實剛才有委員提到說日本的這個參和業者他們的這個幾十法每一項細項都很認真我也可以告訴我們委員其實台灣現在進步到現在也非常關心那有些個案的發生都很不幸我們也希望這些比例減少"},{"start":10743.997,"end":10767.939,"text":"監察院對教育部的批評要求我們也都會持續在做這是一個進步的象徵我想有批評才會改進有改進才會進步我想我們都願意細心來接受所以說在沒有修法之前我個人也非常清楚我在當委員的時候到現在他是不斷地在精進我去訪問東京的那個國小的時候他跟我說他們也可以看到台灣的食材跟這個東西如果那不是假照的話"},{"start":10768.399,"end":10785.849,"text":"他們認為台灣一餐六十幾塊他們一百二十塊我們吃的並不比他們差就是說這樣子的一個情況下我覺得專法如果要立它實質上的立就是希望孩子能夠得到更多孩子要得到更多我們中央地方一定要一起努力"},{"start":10786.269,"end":10792.452,"text":"是是是然後最後一個問題就是關於在人力的部分那人力部分當然涉及到財務嘛對不對所以這個等到這個財務財政劃分收支法這確認的時候就可以那如果是我們的地方政府拿到就沒問題但是我現在問題是在於說可以看見出來是在營養師啊還有所謂執行秘書啊在這個儲供這些部分我們都本黨都有些提供的一些做法包括是儲供就是應該500個人的時候呢學校500人的規模的時候都要有"},{"start":10816.842,"end":10817.322,"text":"您對這個看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":10836.079,"end":10864.935,"text":"我想委員的建議因為很多版本那民眾黨團的這個版本的建議我們一定會納入一起來參作一起來參考好不好好 謝謝那我希望在這個情況下我們看在下兩頁就在於說有關於說這個有營養的午餐的這部分它實際上是我們整個完備營養三法的這一部分那如果把這塊部分把它加進來的話大概就是所有的我們政府跟我們民眾學生都是雙很多sign in的部分那請我們部跟兩個院大家一起來合作"},{"start":10865.555,"end":10870.818,"text":"好 謝謝委員的關心我們很感謝我們會繼續努力 謝謝好 謝謝次長跟署長 謝謝謝謝劉書斌委員的質詢那待會我們在陳秀寶委員質詢後我們休息五分鐘那接著繼續進行質詢請郭育晴委員質詢好 主席早安有請次長"},{"start":10895.816,"end":10911.209,"text":"有請次長備質詢 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝委員剛剛一進來就被我們主席點名了齁那我看到主席這個相當生氣那在這裡我想問一下喔講學金的部分應該不是只有教育部能提供對吧"},{"start":10913.47,"end":10937.95,"text":"應該是有各類的啦剛才提過說像僑委會啦外交部啦或者是中研院國科會我去訪問外國的時候其實也會遇到台灣的一些留學生他們是譬如說他們是政府的官員那他們有一些計畫他們前往那邊去做學習學術的交流或一年有各種研習可能統稱獎學金所以我不清楚這個新聞事件上所講的留學生是哪一類"},{"start":10940.312,"end":10955.92,"text":"因為委員非常關心我們一定會再繼續因為委員的指責我們也很難過啦所以說我們可以繼續做這個了解我沒有指責教育部啊對我們沒有指責教育部我們只是在想說這個來源我們要搞清楚不然其實真的罵錯人了"},{"start":10956.3,"end":10982.162,"text":"好不好好那這個其實也是原po啊他在底下有人在問了他說請問很好奇喔這個關於這一個部會的這個獎學金到底是哪一個單位負責那他也提出了因為中研院也把老師的名字也寫出來囉好那我想呢在這個中研院114年的預算當中的業務費喔其中的業務費其實也包含學術交流的部分"},{"start":10982.742,"end":11002.375,"text":"那當然也包含參與學術研討的相關的經費那這個部分呢 有沒有被刪 有沒有被砍 有沒有被動教育部知道嗎我想就按照剛才委員關心我們如果已經是有名有姓有單位我們會去了解關係沒關係我來回答齁在中研院的部分呢其實我們在立法院已經凍結了11.62億"},{"start":11004.696,"end":11025.869,"text":"就是關於中研院的業務費那我剛剛提到了這業務的範圍包含學術交流也包含參與學術的研討相關的事件那有可能就跟這一位沒有辦法成行的同學博士生有相關了那另外呢在整個所有的經費呢也是被砍了大概將近15%15%大概就是3300萬"},{"start":11031.053,"end":11044.332,"text":"所以其實不是只有劍指教育部就沒事因為還有很多的部會我在這裡也做一個說明我們剛才也是說教育部沒有但是其他的單位到底有沒有我們也必須做了解不然我們背上好多劍好多刀"},{"start":11046.135,"end":11064.934,"text":"好那再來因為今天剛好次長來喔除了剛剛我們大家都關心的營養午餐以外喔我先來講一下關於上一個會期應該是說上上個會期三月的時候因為凱凱案昨天他們開了第四度的這個準備的程序庭"},{"start":11065.575,"end":11092.209,"text":"那這第四度的程序準備庭其實我也到場的去聆聽喔那主要就是他們在接著下來之後的審判庭期喔審判的這個期日呢來做整個所有的程序的一個報告喔那凱凱案當初為什麼我會這麼的關心是因為他的隸屬的主管機關之一當時還沒改例在九月初改例之前其中最大的就是我們的"},{"start":11093.149,"end":11107.776,"text":"教育部是我們他的主管機關那針對這個凱凱案呢從頭到尾其實跟教育部相關我質詢了大概有八次即便在兒福聯盟改立到衛福部"},{"start":11108.456,"end":11113.861,"text":"在10月4號的總質詢當中我也在大院針對兒扶聯盟來做質詢那我想當初其實我們的建議要部長他也有同意也答應我給我一個肯定的答案"},{"start":11124.671,"end":11143.604,"text":"就是在凱凱案告一個段落之後他會來再回過頭來追責所謂的兒福聯盟在內部控管的缺失跟他們整個所有的監察的系統的一個落差這個部分還有他們在內部的消息有沒有疏失來做一個懲處"},{"start":11144.585,"end":11162.403,"text":"是我想這個部分我還是需要再次在今天的這個質詢我希望能夠得到這個次長您的同意然後您的認可我們繼續雖然教育部現在已經不是兒福聯盟的主管機關但是我們還是希望能夠繼續就責可以嗎可以沒有問題"},{"start":11165.626,"end":11179.797,"text":"我們會等這個司法判決啦他會有一些犯罪事實的這個判決結果的認定會書寫那我們會有更清楚的一個究責的對象那我們行政機關是一體嘛我們到時候會一起來努力"},{"start":11180.598,"end":11203.336,"text":"尤其是我們昨天其實我跟林月琴委員我們兩個人在追凱凱案的這個時間跟次數應該算是全院最多的但是我們沒有站在人群面前去討拍去蹭這個聲量那尤其是當初3月14號3月18號的時候未還的委員會"},{"start":11204.837,"end":11216.026,"text":"召開了他們的這個會議針對凱凱案的時候其實當時他們的主席還是兒福聯盟的高層董事王玉敏"},{"start":11216.909,"end":11239.523,"text":"那這個部分其實他當初沒有迴避繼續擔任主席而且還說他也是3月11號聽到媒體揭露他才知道凱凱案的以兒福聯盟這麼龐大的慈善巨獸居然他是董事他是高層怎麼會在孩子在2023年12月24號的平安夜已經離開了"},{"start":11244.426,"end":11254.83,"text":"他到三月份還是聽媒體才知道的這個部分我個人非常的不苟同我也非常的不認同好我們來進入今天的營養午餐的部分我想學校的營養午餐攸關學生的健康是非常重要的那但是營養午餐的亂象其實也頗多那像前一陣子我們看到就是有學校的營養午餐就是擠這個所謂的這個應該銀絲捲"},{"start":11274.156,"end":11299.61,"text":"光一顆銀絲捲可以擠出大概半碗油等等然後再來關於所謂的營養午餐的這樣子的一個亂象其實還是有一些新聞頻傳但是呢在我們知道從這個營養午餐依照地方制度法其實事權在地方然後另外呢在過去其實我們中央有一些補助但是今年我想要問市長最重要的一件事情是"},{"start":11300.47,"end":11325.798,"text":"我們在11月之後發生了財化法請問對我們的營養午餐不管是地方的一些營養午餐的補助請問會不會有重大的影響當然是會有啦所以說我們就想說其實這個因為財化法的這樣的修其實對於這個像國民教育階段需要中央大量補助的這些國教補助款"},{"start":11326.838,"end":11351.397,"text":"那過去雖然在審查的過程裡面有說一般補助款不能減少但事實上我們有很多地方的補助是透過計畫來達成政策的目的譬如說我們希望孩子吃得好、吃得安全、吃得營養那當然像張Q的補助從106年到現在上路已經補助到一年38億像這個弱勢孩童要讓他吃得飽"},{"start":11352.097,"end":11380.16,"text":"那要協助地方政府去補助他們那也從91年到現在也陸續補助的到每年21億像這個廚房設備不足偏向的地方那校長常常開著發財車到地方到山下採購一個禮拜像這樣子的一個新聞我們都看到了那這幾年來陸續也在委員的關心下我們編列的經費中央廚房每年也都到達到了15億所以我說每年其實我們不算那個餐費的補助"},{"start":11380.76,"end":11403.277,"text":"光是這方面補助其實已經高達74億了那財化法的衝擊對國教補助款的影響到底有多大我想我們也在做內部的謹慎評估但是對於修法會再增加負擔跟補助的部分我們是真的覺得不跟地方政府攤開來談那事實上修的再怎麼樣的法好的法我們怎麼樣來落實會變成將來一個"},{"start":11405.879,"end":11426.486,"text":"我們就不希望看到中央地方在互推我想讓孩子吃得好我剛才也說過那是一個甜蜜的負擔那中央跟地方一定要合作一定要來談所以中央跟地方目前其實是還沒有達到對 不能說我們錢沒了錢被拿走了三成28%結果地方增加的那我們又要去負擔又沒有那個能力然後地方又說他們沒辦法接手"},{"start":11426.866,"end":11449.171,"text":"那這樣子就真的就是不是一件我們樂見看到的尤其是我們看到有很多的委員提案也包括我自己其實我也特別對委員提案非常肯定就是從40班至少有一個營養師我們希望能夠往下就是再擴增比方說可能20班就至少要增加一位這個營養師原額的配置也因為採化法其實營養師陸續這幾年都有在增加"},{"start":11449.531,"end":11454.074,"text":"所以其實光是我們的才化法到目前為止其實我們不知道對所謂的這個營養午餐它會有多重大的一個影響那目前有沒有一個時程是說我們跟地方要怎麼樣來大家把事權講好"},{"start":11479.831,"end":11502.763,"text":"還是要82分我想委員知道在這樣氣氛下教育部我們會很強力的來捍衛這個預算但是要跟地方談我剛才提過了有些縣市對於他所獲配的財源他不見得很滿意那中央說我們要收回這個補助款希望由地方負擔他也不會那麼容易答應我舉個例子嘛台南台南現在是"},{"start":11503.803,"end":11530.85,"text":"國立高中他還是我們國立的那其他的六都裡面大概有四都已經收回了那台南會願意嗎那台南不願意我們怎麼辦那像台北市他錢比較多他或許他會願意比較好談那新北會願意嗎有些偏鄉的補助所以這個我們要盡速來溝通啦那也希望才會把這個影響能夠把影響降到最低啦因為孩子其實在學校的營養現在行政委員會做憲法救濟嘛剛才那個委員已經提過說"},{"start":11532.15,"end":11556.459,"text":"複製已經過了 行政究竟如何我們當然如果說真的對我們裁員的影響不大我們當然不樂見還要透過跟地方協商我們會很大方的補助就像過去這幾年一樣好 那我們希望能夠就是因為裁劃法的關係然後在營養午餐的部分我們其實不打折還能夠給孩子更安全然後給家長也放心 好嗎謝謝委員的關心謝謝市長 謝謝主席"},{"start":11558.968,"end":11565.259,"text":"謝謝郭玉琴委員質詢 官員請回座接著請陳秀寶委員繼續質詢謝謝主席 請張廖次長"},{"start":11578.752,"end":11583.114,"text":"這邊我想先跟您討論關於這次學測的這個成績我們學測成績剛公佈不久但是這個統計卻顯示說在英文的成績狀況已經連兩年底標都降為三級分後標也降為四級分那在五級分以下的學生佔比從23.14%提升到34.17%增加了百分之十"},{"start":11599.821,"end":11622.456,"text":"那有高中的英文老師有指出111年到114年的這個學測的英文成績比較友善那麼在題目變簡單的情況之下成績卻變得比較差可能就不是題目造成的結果次長這邊我想請教你教育部針對這次的成績英文的成績狀況你們有沒有掌握我們會不會針對英文成績持續探底的這個狀況來進行檢討"},{"start":11624.697,"end":11645.054,"text":"對委員的關心我們也非常關心教育部過去不管是透過高中優質化的補助方案或者是高職優質化的補助方案其實對於城鄉的差距你提到的就是英文的成績會有一些落差我們也都持續關心詳細部分我們是不是請副市長來那請您簡短的"},{"start":11648.407,"end":11651.29,"text":"謝謝委員的關心剛剛所提每個學校可能有他原來的校本的經營但是國家的政策還是在有幾大政策上我們持續給予協助剛剛委員關心到那個成績有特別的情況我們會就跟高教師去釐清他那個背後真實的不管是學校區塊"},{"start":11673.171,"end":11695.022,"text":"真實到底是什麼原因造成我希望你們盡快的去了解因為其實英文是很重要的基礎科目那在大學階段也有很多課程是會有閱讀會閱讀原文書的需求所以我們在這個部分我們去了解說為什麼是什麼原因是教學呢還是什麼原因造成說會有這樣子的這個標準都下降的這個造成的這樣的狀況"},{"start":11696.563,"end":11701.088,"text":"因為英文也是目前全球最通用的語言所以我希望說你們針對這個部分呢這個我們學生相關的英文的實力的這個提升的這個方案你們來研議一下那你再給我一份報告好"},{"start":11710.899,"end":11740.131,"text":"接下來我請到次長目前有報導說在桃園的某國中傳出在露營的活動中有使用中國軍服那本席這邊有跟國防部確認這個活動所使用的迷彩服確實不是我國軍所使用的這個我也認得因為我想要再當兵他每個禮拜會帶回來給我洗所以這不是我們自己國軍的這個試樣那這邊我將這個迷彩服有放大次長您看一下你覺得說這個很明確不是我們的那你可以看得出來這是中國軍方使用的迷彩嗎"},{"start":11741.87,"end":11769.301,"text":"這個媒體有報導說這是比較明顯是解放軍的啦但是業者有辯解啦但是我看這個看起來似乎是沒有錯其實對於一般的教師啊學生或是民眾可能沒有辦法及時的來辨認說迷彩服的樣式是哪一個國家所以對於負責辦理活動的廠商跟校方其實就應該更嚴格來把關那我想請教現在對於目前國中露營活動他們使用這些迷彩服我們有定"},{"start":11770.261,"end":11790.359,"text":"相關的要求嗎還是規定嗎這地方的權責我們沒有管到那麼細不過我想請那個署這邊其實這兩天也有發函地方也跟地方做了解來做一個回應所以說署這邊已經有跟就在那第一時間3月17號我們今天新聞喊請桃園市政府做確實的了解"},{"start":11791.54,"end":11816.907,"text":"但同時對地方政府怎麼繼續監督管理跟學校本位如何訂定相關的這個活動的設計跟活動實施過程的了解這一套我們都有跟各縣市來做溝通跟要求謝謝所以署這邊已經有去研議說如何防止學校再發生這樣的事件那我想請問一下那針對這個使用中國軍服的廠商我們有任何的問責的機制嗎"},{"start":11820.926,"end":11836.268,"text":"我們會請桃園市政府教育局來掌握本案後續的狀況事實上去負起督導學校的一個角色如果有違反相關的規定那麼也可以依照他們相關的法令"},{"start":11837.409,"end":11851.383,"text":"包括校長適不適任的問題那處理上有沒有行政上的一個問題我來做一個問責好那也希望你們能夠掌握盡快的掌握相關那趕快去了解我們會把這個案件列為重點本期在這邊真的要強調其實中國現在正不斷的以各種方式來侵擾台灣甚至他們也不斷的就是放言說他們不放棄武力犯台"},{"start":11859.051,"end":11884.287,"text":"所以我們不能在學校的教育我們所舉辦的活動上這麼大意我們甚至這等於是在幫中國做這個認知作戰所以本席會希望說我們教育部盤盡快的對這個事情我們來了解你們要提出一份檢討報告給我因為這不是小事這不是小事中國一直對我們有存在敵意我們在教育上要非常的小心我們要有這樣的憂患意識那接下來呢我還要再問你一下"},{"start":11885.788,"end":11897.637,"text":"桃園某國小的校長在抖音上發布統戰圖文甚至還發表兩岸一家親的言論如果我們的校長他都是有這種觀念他要怎麼帶領一間學校來阻止中國統戰思維滲透甚至說這個校長他還是我們足球協會的理事"},{"start":11905.343,"end":11932.998,"text":"次長 這樣子錯綜複雜的關係及人際網絡都是中國拿來滲透的管道所以本席希望說教育部可以審慎地面對就是全面來檢討相關的這些人員也要注意管束這些言論的適當性本席不希望說某些人士利用特定的這些體育團體來動作管道將運動及運動活動比賽染上這個統戰的色彩我希望教育部 整個教育部還有包含體育署我們所有的"},{"start":11934.079,"end":11949.497,"text":"都要好好的来应对那次长您对这个您的看法跟您的现在可能要做的做法是怎样我想这个行为是非常不妥完全非常不妥那至于他的这个相关的选择还是在台湾市政府那这个国家组这边已经也跟他们联系"},{"start":11949.497,"end":11968.697,"text":"那再請你們持續追蹤好嗎我再次強調其實中國對台灣有存在的很巨大的敵意我們不能沒有優換意識這一點我希望說我們在整個教育體系我們一定有這樣子的概念好這現在進入我們今天主要我們那個學校飲食法的這個主題"},{"start":11969.518,"end":11997.818,"text":"我想請教說這次學校飲食法的增訂所有委員的版本都有明文規定要增設營養師及飲食秘書那教育部你們會朝這個方向研議嗎那如果以委員的版本你們有沒有預計要增設多少人力需要多少的預算對 其實我們送院的布版裡面當然也有布版的一些綜合大家考慮提出來的一個版本那這個詳細的部分我們是不是請署長來回答好 謝謝"},{"start":11999.426,"end":12011.091,"text":"剛剛委員催詢到營養師跟有關的五蜜營養師的部分如果按照目前我們的規劃是公辦公營的大概會增加263人將近要增加的經費是達到2億7800萬那如果是五蜜的部分現行五蜜有41%是老師監作"},{"start":12020.054,"end":12033.991,"text":"有59%是非老師處理那這整體有簡課的方式也有很多的其他的建議那這些建議如果加計起來可能會達到五億多五億的部分所以這個都在那個剛剛講增加的那個26億內"},{"start":12037.475,"end":12060.615,"text":"就是兩億再加五億如果以營養師跟飲食秘書來講的話那其實我們根據新修正的這個才化法中央各單位已經預計要撥出去的大概是將近百分之三十的預算到地方政府那我們教育部現在在教育的整個預算減少的情況下那你們有辦法負擔這些新增加的高額的預算嗎"},{"start":12061.756,"end":12075.014,"text":"對 謝謝委員的關心如果按照專法草案各項的項目經費剛才除了營養師的部分可能需要兩億七千八百七十八萬之外像補助高級中等學校經濟弱勢學生午餐的所需經費還需要增加到四萬四億左右"},{"start":12077.017,"end":12094.976,"text":"那午餐秘書專職化所需的經費以這個組長值來預估可能要5億5千萬那學校廚房硬體及設備的器具經費的補助也會高達2億6那有關這個高級中等學校納入張Q補助那只是團散的那個部分也要1億7千6百萬"},{"start":12096.437,"end":12112.382,"text":"所以我說這個最起碼最少還會再增加26億7300萬以最少的版本來算至少要增加26億以上所以整個補助不包括餐費就營養午餐的部分就高達100億7384萬那針對這個專法教育部沒有辦法來負擔的情況之下你們有預計就是將這些增加的預算跟地方政府來協調到底地方應該要負責多少"},{"start":12121.484,"end":12132.09,"text":"財劃法現在的狀況就是復議案沒有過那現在行政院還在做這個救濟那我們也希望比較確定之後那你們預計何時開始展開跟地方跟團體的這些對談跟溝通我們會盡快啦 署長可能有你們規劃大概什麼時候開始"},{"start":12139.431,"end":12156.027,"text":"可能我們大概在可能有一些才化法的那個確認之後比較好來溝通才有一個標的跟未來做法的溝通方向也好或是各項目也好所以說要等才化法整個比較精確的離居之後"},{"start":12158.709,"end":12177.808,"text":"救濟成功沒有減少的話那當然就會繼續加碼因為我很希望說你們盡快可以展開就是不管是跟教師啊家長啊跟學生團體跟地方政府溝通那你們才能夠把各方的意見都融合之後你們盡快提出你們的版本喔那因為你有溝通過了之後這推行才能夠順利"},{"start":12179.069,"end":12206.992,"text":"這個部分希望說你們可以盡快的來做這些相關的後續那我這邊也要強調一下我的版本裡面是透過學校提供的餐食讓孩子來認識食材也推廣健康的這個飲食的意識希望結合台灣在地的優質農產品以及特色飲食文化而且是強化跟在地食材跟人文歷史的連結所以這個部分也希望說教育部你們可以嚴嚴納入你們法案的方向讓我們的學校飲食法可以落實食農教育的精神"},{"start":12207.312,"end":12217.354,"text":"好 謝謝委員的關心 我們來努力 謝謝謝謝陳秀寶委員的質詢我們現在 官員請回座 謝謝我們休息五分鐘"},{"start":12574.687,"end":12577.65,"text":"好 接著我們繼續進行質詢 請范雲委員質詢好 謝謝昭緯 有請次長有請次長被質詢 謝謝好"},{"start":12589.941,"end":12593.582,"text":"委員好次長午安在我問學校公參法前我先針對早上有委員提到的科博館的事情我知道張亮萬堅委員次長出自台中科博館也都說您一直大力支持"},{"start":12607.426,"end":12608.888,"text":"這個陳情案我也有收到賴總統上任前一直非常支持科博館2024年底科博館也向外部提出科博館升級計畫"},{"start":12622.563,"end":12643.662,"text":"汉堡德就是1993年筹划以来最重要的计划我想科博馆的重要性张亮次长非常的了解因为他是我们全国标本数最大的那每年参观人数也300万人次非常的重要那这个计划不会因为人事的变动而受到影响吧这次长可以承诺吗"},{"start":12644.082,"end":12673.092,"text":"我跟那個離子的交管人員非常熟我很肯定他很勇於認識剛才因為沒有時間回答那至於這個人事案件坦白講這也不是我的權責能夠回答就是說有發生這樣的狀況我們當然本於事權或者是這個計劃這個戒掉的期限當然是從這樣角度關係我們可以理解不過我想對於這些計劃我覺得科博館確實需要投入一些資源來改善"},{"start":12673.812,"end":12698.096,"text":"那我想至少教育部承諾這些升級的計畫不會受影響第二個我也希望次長在這邊可以承諾說能夠多化強化跟裡面的專業研究人員的溝通減少衝擊這應該可以做到吧對我想我會跟部長建議就是說應該去了解一下到館裡面去了解整個發展是不是有外傳這樣的狀況來跟地方好好溝通"},{"start":12701.837,"end":12729.739,"text":"那如果部長真的工忙我也可以過去好 那我想如果張廖次長出動的話那大家應該是更有信心了因為你本來就了解這個台中的科博館的重要性那再回到今天的這個主題因為我想那個剛剛其實次長都有回應過那我也想再重申我們這一屆有很多我們教文委員跟非教文委我們組的下一代而佔連線就把營養午餐專法列為重要的法案"},{"start":12730.6,"end":12746.96,"text":"那也不只是這一屆那張廖次長跟我們在一起的時候上一屆我們都非常的關心我個人也跟民團多次召開記者會呼籲教育部盡速制定學校公餐法那也跟我們教育部長上一屆潘部長質詢過"},{"start":12748.542,"end":12774.511,"text":"同時就說有草案基礎會加速的推那教育部也回應我就是認同而且會訂出前瞻而且創新的學校午餐專法那這部分我想其實我們都知道為什麼要訂這個部分那我也知道剛剛張廖次長有講到其實你們現在已經做了非常多我們專法中在講的事情那包含就是已經有70幾億"},{"start":12775.751,"end":12785.478,"text":"每年都提升包含契約各方面但是有一點就是營養師的部分還是沒有辦法做到因為營養師現狀是每班30人一個營養師要負擔1200人我們知道其實就日本來講"},{"start":12793.403,"end":12813.667,"text":"就只要550個人就有那這是日本的狀態所以我們跟日本比起來還是差距很大那日本是在1954年韓國在1981年就有相關的專法了那當然就是我自己的版本還特別重視多元飲食文化跟飲食教育"},{"start":12814.147,"end":12816.59,"text":"還有這個剩食的部分因為我覺得就是國中小生他們其實怎麼樣有實時的教育剩食減量那這也是我原本的那個相關的法中有提到的"},{"start":12829.104,"end":12855.513,"text":"也因為這些原因我覺得很重要要有這個專法可是我剛聽了半天我也知道行政院的卡關是卡關在哪裡因為我想本來潘部長或者張廖次長你一定會非常支持把它法治化雖然現在有非常多的部分就是教育部已經做到了那這個部分您可不可以再講一下就是因為剛剛有委員講說才化法的部分可以協商"},{"start":12855.973,"end":12881.003,"text":"那到底地方政府那您剛剛有講到說會議紀錄會給委員嘛那是哪些地方政府願意來分擔這個錢沒有這個部分還沒有談因為台灣法對台灣法過之後因為有行政院的那個那個程序還沒有通就是救濟程序復議都還沒過那我們當然這個部分去跟地方談也不知道怎麼談那因為地方他也不確定他拿多少錢"},{"start":12882.063,"end":12902.021,"text":"我提過就是說每個地方對於目前這個新版裁判法的一個版本的貨配數是不是滿意那我們要如何做一刀切說怎麼樣的縣市幾層幾層幾層這樣他們同不同意這其實是一個溝通的難度啦那我們願意溝通啦那就是說如果已經確定是這樣子的新版"},{"start":12902.802,"end":12924.53,"text":"的採訪法是明年上路的話那今年我們是不會去動就是說那今年修法如果增加的預算那要增加的我們講過至少會26億多包括要符合營養師你提到的那個550人的標準的話我們就朝這個目標來努力的話要增加的兩億幾千萬那這部分我們可以先談就是說跟地方談是不是"},{"start":12926.209,"end":12938.317,"text":"他們願意來多付一點以我個人看 因為其實教育本來就是地方事務那我們教育部過去做了非常多簡單的講就是財務法他把錢拿回去就是權利義務要對等我們不是說把國民教育就甩鍋給地方而是說你拿了錢回去 那折就要扛回去這樣子會比較好那如果地方就是拒絕呢他又要錢又不想負擔責任那我們怎麼辦"},{"start":12950.966,"end":12974.197,"text":"對 這個就是說這個就是會變成不穩定的一個教育預算跟教育政策其實這是我們不樂見的對 就是財發法的修法這樣匆忙過之後造成的教育預算 國教補助這些的不穩定性我常常覺得說其實穩定的教育預算是國家的福氣是孩子的福氣那我也想藉這個機會請教次長"},{"start":12976.218,"end":12994.007,"text":"因為這個才化法要撥到地方的三千多億裡面有哪些教育部受到影響的會大概多少億因為原本各部會這一定是各部會均攤嘛那教育部會攤多少會減少多少會不會影響到地方的原本的什麼老舊房舍補助啊等等這些"},{"start":12994.907,"end":13014.141,"text":"我們私下估算嘛就是說如果有一些預算像國防預算等等那一定不能撿的話那我們也不是只有28%那其實教育預算也有很多譬如說少子化補助我們分攤了688億那這部分到底是要跟地方合作也是一樣請他們負擔一點還是我們要跟著撿"},{"start":13014.801,"end":13031.927,"text":"那跟著減的話小子化就指向公托跟非營利的補助第一胎五千、六千、七千還有公托的補助就是他們去念幼兒園就一千、兩千、三千負擔減低那這一部分教育部也分它六百八十八億那這部分也不能減那所以有些"},{"start":13032.927,"end":13050.05,"text":"你要撿的業務費用就是說剛才大家討論很多說就會去撿到一些各單位的業務費用那事實上目前我們正在各單位也在想籌編明年預算的時候其實也在想說我們有些可能必須要三個三成或多少如果"},{"start":13050.891,"end":13075.617,"text":"方案一三層的話那我們要掃哪些 兼哪些那地方要怎麼去談所以這是一個很困難的工作那我現在也憂心的是就是地方拿了這個財化法搶到這個錢又不負擔義務然後萬一你們跟地方協商的話地方政府又要推給你說那這個你學校午餐條例還是要中央出錢那這就非常的不合理"},{"start":13076.617,"end":13089.872,"text":"剛剛我們很多藍營 待會葉元志委員我們應該問他新北市學校午餐條例新北市要負擔百分之多少次長你覺得地方政府應該要負擔多少才合理主席說我們是不能去問我想是這樣"},{"start":13091.414,"end":13108.157,"text":"我就想這個國教補助 補助孩子這絕對是教育部甜蜜的負擔我們都願意多出但問題是說如果沒有能力出的時候地方中央一起來談一起來出能夠談出一個名簿我們好好修修得更好負擔更多我覺得那就是甜蜜的負擔我們都願意承擔"},{"start":13108.878,"end":13125.121,"text":"我相信就是說因為我們這邊委員都在中央大家會希望中央多買單一點但是就剛講的財化法中央錢就不夠了如果少子化的錢都要地方的話我也會擔心萬一地方不做因為沒有任何的法律的基礎就是地方要負擔"},{"start":13125.902,"end":13143.915,"text":"那這個事情應該大家一起來解決那當然我個人還是希望說行政院能夠務實算出之後有一個可執行的版本那是不是我們就是不分黨派包含議員之委員都一起來遊說地方願意承諾分擔多少我想這樣才會有個合理的溝通"},{"start":13144.756,"end":13159.437,"text":"專法的精神我們都很支持專法的精神都是要孩子吃的好吃的安全吃的營養那吃的這個能夠均衡所以我覺得這個我們都支持只是說像營養師增加我們現在版本設算的經費都出來如果我們"},{"start":13160.558,"end":13187.696,"text":"如果我們不去面對的話我們就不會去設算這個經費就是說我們也希望能夠達到這個目標那我希望這個溝通速度越快越好那也跟剛剛委員一樣那個溝通的紀錄是不是也都可以給本委員會因為財務法確定之後行政會有指示說我們大概會減少多少的時候如果有開過會我們比較確定的也許他覺得這份不能減那跟地方政府的溝通紀錄也給本席一份好嗎好 謝謝謝謝次長 一起加油"},{"start":13192.6,"end":13197.383,"text":"謝謝范雲委員質詢 官員請回座接下來我們請葉元之委員繼續質詢您好 麻煩請教育部次長請次長備質詢"},{"start":13215.902,"end":13236.151,"text":"好 謝謝 維永好其實營養午餐這個真的非常重要其實我們在地方跑的時候常常也有小朋友或家長跟我們反映營養午餐的問題那當然好不好吃是另外一回事但重點是有的時候品質的把關這一塊大家其實有時候會提出一些憂心譬如說我現在給你看這個圖"},{"start":13237.512,"end":13264.088,"text":"當然這不是發生在我們新北市但是這是最近的事情成大南宮他們就發生說營養午餐裡面有豬扎銀絲捲捏出大半碗油那其實這就牽涉到說我們營養午餐第一個品質它有沒有出現異物第二個就是它在營養上面有沒有做到那個不管在食材上面或者是在營養的分配上有沒有達到均衡那我現在先點出三個問題是現行的狀況的問題"},{"start":13266.75,"end":13272.142,"text":"那第一個問題就是我們因為按照現在的法規規定只有在40班以上"},{"start":13273.126,"end":13297.328,"text":"自辦的廚房才要設營養師自立廚房自辦的四十班以上才要有營養師但實際上市場應該很清楚啦現在四十班以上的學校也沒有那麼多啦用人會比較準啦對對對所以他不是全部都需要四十班以上第二個有一些是自立廚房可是他是委外辦理的"},{"start":13297.808,"end":13321.446,"text":"那委派辦理的話學校就沒有設營養師他的營養師是設在委外的單位那委外單位的營養師我不能說他營養師有問題但是因為他是委辦單位設的營養師關係比較近關係比較近啦當然有時候有可能會睜一隻眼閉一隻眼第三個團散的部分就是不是自立廚房團散的部分那這個營養師的規範也是在團散的業者或便當業者自己訂定"},{"start":13322.307,"end":13331.681,"text":"那而且這個團戰業者他的營養師他有時候會去學校支援一些這個營養教育嘛那但是負擔也非常重"},{"start":13332.779,"end":13351.898,"text":"所以這其實都是現在的問題那現在呢有營養師的國中跟國小大概只有佔百分之二十不到其實比例也是蠻低的所以我們訂這個專法其實是很有必要啦訂定專法把營養師這個重要的角色他的規範把它訂定清楚然後第二個是"},{"start":13353.001,"end":13370.662,"text":"第二個是說針對午餐祕書還有儲供等等相關規範我覺得這個這個應該是應該要做的嘛對吧市長你應該也是同意嘛不過有一個點因為好像現在按照那個你們即將提出來的版本是不是說如果是"},{"start":13372.123,"end":13398.741,"text":"儲公假設是自辦的自立廚房如果是委外的話它是德設營養學校德設營養師現在的規劃是這樣嘛德就是可以或不可以都可以嘛對不對公辦公營是因啦那因為剛剛委員有提到其他的話就德那但是就是說其實委員我們我可以講一下嗎就我們114年度法定應該聘的營養師是474啦那其實我們也知道不足"},{"start":13399.241,"end":13418.692,"text":"所以我們實際拚了681,超過法規最低的一個標準那偏鄉的也在加碼,那有些還有用專案經理人的方式來取代這個角色公辦公營我現在沒有要跟你討論這個啦,我跟你討論的是自立廚房但是委外的,是用德啦其實我們是建議說應該也是要因啦"},{"start":13419.552,"end":13448.166,"text":"因為你學校必須要有營養師去跟他對接嘛對不對不然的話剛剛次長其實你也提到嘛關係比較近嘛都是比較偏對所以是不是可以考慮把委外的部分也改成因就是讓學校可以多一個監督跟把關的機制然後第二個就是說像團散業者有時候你也知道有些能夠供應這麼多學校跟學童的團散業者其實非常有限"},{"start":13448.922,"end":13466.36,"text":"那學校其實有時候對於他們當然是可以按照合約去監督啦可是在人力上面如果有一個專職的營養師去跟他對接其實對學校的營養網午餐的把關也會比較好一點對不對好不好這個市長不知道說能不能朝那個方向去努力啦朝那個方向就是經費會再增加"},{"start":13467.601,"end":13484.083,"text":"因為我覺得真的是你看光是公辦公營的營養是增加對啦我覺得我們先來考慮說我們先來考慮說該不該做這個事情就是說我們該不該站在學童的營養健康這個角度去探討說該不該做這個事情那如果說大家覺得該做"},{"start":13485.365,"end":13507.532,"text":"那該做的話當然經費大家來討論嘛譬如說你說財化法通過之後什麼中央地方各負擔多少那大家可以去談啦可是我們要先確定說這個事情是該做或不該做嘛不應該對啊這部分主要增加會在地方啦那地方他會認為得或因我們也會尊重他們的意識我聽說很多地方其實建議說應該改因那時候是因為都中央補助啦"},{"start":13510.471,"end":13536.773,"text":"我們不能夠說大家要我出錢我就覺得不要做不要我出錢就應該要做那到底是該做不該做我們要站在學校的角度或學生的角度去想這個事情在中央立場好不好我們先確定該不該做那我個人是覺得該做你也該做好不好你看我們秀出來這個圖捏出大半碗油我們會把那個方案列出來版本的方案就是說得跟因多少錢那我們問地方中央一起來"},{"start":13537.393,"end":13563.154,"text":"我相信如果有營養師的話像類似我們現在PET上面看到照片的狀況會減少很多啦這是管理的問題啦你有營養師當然就是多一個管理嘛這絕對是比較好的啦而且營養部分他可以把關嘛然後第二個同樣也是學校人力的問題我跟市長或者署長請教一下啦因為我上個會期我們都很關心那個國中的校安人力那之前"},{"start":13564.935,"end":13588.947,"text":"國教署的回應是說有增設有增設一個副組長的津貼副組長的津貼那後來我們也有跟教育部不斷的溝通嘛後來謝謝教育部啦 願意後來也針對國中部分有增設一個那時候叫做學務創新能力啦實際上就是校安人員啦應該是這樣啦可是去年 今年一月啦今年一月份那時候是回覆我們是說"},{"start":13590.528,"end":13603.303,"text":"現在是朝那方面研議然後會跟地方政府討論然後再簽辦那我不知道說這個校安人員的最新的有沒有確定的方案呢現在有兩個方案在跟地方協調我們是不是請那個"},{"start":13605.305,"end":13619.799,"text":"謝謝委員關心委員關心從去年到現在他的進度是這樣我簡單的回覆兩個地方第一個是委員講完之後也會回委員我們的方向那在3月4號的時候把這個方向變成具體的跟地方政府也溝通過"},{"start":13620.639,"end":13645.32,"text":"由學校自己選那兩種方法之一種那現在也是一樣在地方的這個才化法因為它叫年年要這樣實施所以有一些溝通允許我們跟地方政府再說服他們這是有必要而且經費上我們會一起來努力市長跟市長其實我們在這邊我們大家都是討論教育問題大家不用動不動就把才化法搬出來所以現在的做法到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":13646.461,"end":13652.548,"text":"組長可不可以很明確就現在已經確定兩個確定已經兩個方案114學年兩個方案學校會選好那各學校現在是主要是選擇偵測副組長比較多還是選擇專職的校安人力比較多以你現在溝通的狀況"},{"start":13664.039,"end":13676.423,"text":"以我們3月4號溝通之後縣市他還在跟學校做磋商以我前天調查的情況還沒有明確讓我們知道學校選擇情形跟委員會報但3月4號我們已經跟地方政府說明過了說明過後他足及會跟他所屬的比如說30個學校120個國中等等要做說明及選擇那個還沒有選擇完還沒選擇完所以到時候地方政府的教育局會整理完之後會報給你這邊嘛對不對然後你再統一簽報嘛是是是"},{"start":13693.089,"end":13704.319,"text":"對不對好那所以就是有在進行當中啦有有謝謝然後再來跟也跟那個次長問另外一個議題這個議題我那是前一陣子的議題但是我"},{"start":13705.561,"end":13734.333,"text":"個人非常好奇就是那個時候教育部開了一個性評會議把林玉婷列為這個性別身份資格選手的參賽的權益保障措施我先請教一下我實在不太懂為什麼當時討論性別身份資格的這個權益保障會以林玉婷為例因為就我們的立場我們全台灣的人都認為說林玉婷沒有什麼性別的問題啊她就是女性啊她就是女性嘛她只是說"},{"start":13736.254,"end":13750.434,"text":"國際權總不知道是為什麼去質疑他全台灣都是支持他就是女性他絕對沒有問題可是為什麼在討論性別身份資格的時候會以林玉婷為例到底當時你們的想法到底是什麼"},{"start":13750.814,"end":13766.157,"text":"我請署長來回答報告委員其實這個是當時我們在這件新聞出來之後其實我們的教育部本部這邊也做了一個新聞澄清當時的會議的確是討論林玉婷的事件在奧運我們體育署做了哪些努力去保護她免於網路霸凌"},{"start":13766.678,"end":13784.566,"text":"但是呢在當下也有委員也在結束的時候也順帶一提說我們現在全中運也是有這些的類似跨性別一些性別的一些議題那也希望體育署好好去處理所以在會議紀錄上面他們把它給混淆了其實是兩件事情所以這部分我們也修正了"},{"start":13785.885,"end":13803.833,"text":"所以第二點宣導跨性別運動選手性別身份的認定這個不是指林玉婷這是另外一件事會議紀錄林玉婷但是會議紀錄這樣一出來因為你的題目是以權及選手林玉婷而已大家以為這個個案嘛所以就認為說你是不是認為他是跨性別是吧"},{"start":13805.073,"end":13832.642,"text":"我說外界是這樣覺得嘛後來我們做修正但我覺得你們的澄清真的不夠清楚啦為什麼 因為你看喔你們後來就是有去修正那個會議記錄你修正會議記錄前面一頁你修正會議記錄呢你就是把一堆全部都刪掉了然後就說決定洽息請幾域署繼續維護選手參賽權益你就把它改成一句話"},{"start":13834.097,"end":13853.759,"text":"可是你看喔那時候人家問你們說為什麼你要去更改會議紀錄你的說法是什麼你們的說法是說那個新聞是說教育部認錯文字簡略導致誤解文字簡略導致誤解結果你去修改會議紀錄你修到更簡略你本來是三段"},{"start":13854.793,"end":13875.387,"text":"然後你覺得太簡略太簡略你應該要像剛剛次長跟署長這樣子解釋嘛對不對就是比如說題目把它改掉啊題目說我們其實在討論性別爭然後把林玉婷的名字拿掉嘛把林玉婷的名字拿掉然後比如說第一點你回到那個上一頁會議記錄好不好比如說你如果我是我要改的話"},{"start":13876.519,"end":13894.992,"text":"我第一個性別身分資格選手參賽權益保障措施我就會把已全籍選手林玉婷拿掉對不對因為不是以她為個案嘛這個主題不是她嘛她只是決定一二三其中的一個嘛所以應該是林玉婷不要出現在題目上"},{"start":13895.652,"end":13913.109,"text":"然後一然後二然後三然後提到就是說哎呀林玉婷因為這個事情被攻擊那以後呢如果我們再遇到的話我們應該怎麼support她她應該在小點裡面她不是在大體裡面然後結果你們的修改方式是她還是在大體裡面"},{"start":13914.551,"end":13929.785,"text":"然後決定變一句話可是你們因為一般去改那個會議紀錄是比較罕見啦但是我覺得改我也支持為什麼因為不要造成誤會可是你改你改得更奇怪你還是把林玉婷放在題目上面"},{"start":13932.667,"end":13939.71,"text":"我是建議說你們再去改啦好不好再改一個版本啦因為這個東西現在網路上還是看得到因為你現在我們去看我們還是會覺得說奇怪了為什麼"},{"start":13946.073,"end":13966.891,"text":"你討論性別身份你要講林玉婷林玉婷到底是有什麼性別身份問題我們還是會這樣子認定啊所以請你把林玉婷拿掉然後你下面在說明的地方你就前面就講跟林玉婷無關的東西嘛你最後一段就說有委員提到林玉婷類似發生這樣被攻擊事件下一次我們應該怎麼去"},{"start":13968.172,"end":13995.802,"text":"Support類似的狀況你應該要這樣子修正啦好 我們就請委員會我就是覺得因為你越改越大家覺得你越改越奇怪當時談的問題跟這個問題是兩件事嘛剛好那個關心林育廷的委員提到他的事情我知道我知道可是你們次長你講的這個東西呈現在書面白紙黑字就不是這樣所以既然你要改我建議說你再改一個版本"},{"start":13996.962,"end":14009.893,"text":"不要讓爭議的東西一直在網路上被全部的人看到好 我們會再提會議把它修正OK 好 謝謝謝謝葉元之委員質詢 官員請回座那接下來我們繼續質詢 請伍麗華委員質詢謝謝主席 有請次長請次長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":14027.322,"end":14048.399,"text":"市長今天如果說我們要為我們的營養午餐來立一步法我想很多與時俱進的觀念很未來性的觀念應該都要放進去好比氣候變遷影響下我們對糧食的看法"},{"start":14049.099,"end":14061.189,"text":"那這種低碳啊 抗旱啊 在地產銷 循環經濟保種的觀念 民族的味覺 解殖民的概念等等我想如果都能夠含瓜進去 這是非常前進的一步伐那為什麼我這樣談 我舉我的版本來講我的版本的名稱叫做學校共餐"},{"start":14070.417,"end":14084.742,"text":"飲食教育法那我看到很多的版本都會提到就是採用當地食材然後發展地方飲食特色但是談何容易我舉個例子我的部落旁邊種滿了山蘇誰來買"},{"start":14088.764,"end":14115.444,"text":"從產地到餐桌我們講探足機有那麼容易嗎這二三十年來我們做營養午餐很不容易達到但是我更希望談的就是說民族味覺的記憶跟文化附贈的途徑其實如果能夠從這一步伐來做其實可以成為一個很好的途徑我舉一個例子來講在花東地區有一個基金會叫慈欣基金會次長您聽過嗎"},{"start":14117.622,"end":14131.276,"text":"這個慈欣經濟會他是用募款的方式他目前有幫助12間的小學他做什麼呢每週幫助他們提供一次的小米加布農豆就是畫面圖片上看到的"},{"start":14132.377,"end":14136.66,"text":"那這個部分小米很營養為什麼因為農糧屬農業不說的啊小米是鹼性的它是所有穀類當中唯一就是不含麩質的那些胃腸過敏的小朋友呢其實很適合吃這個"},{"start":14148.869,"end":14172.741,"text":"容易吸收而且它可以做酸鹼中和對現在的孩子很愛吃肉來講是一個很好的一個食物那另外呢也提到說如果做成小米粥它的營養成分就好比人生湯哇 這麼好我們國家未來的主人翁如果能夠吃小米飯小米粥該有多好但是 次長你看一下"},{"start":14173.681,"end":14187.174,"text":"我們小米種植的面積日本人來的時候我不計算就已經開始輔導原住民轉作但是國民政府當時轉作稻米那個時候我們看到數據是在6736公頃"},{"start":14191.178,"end":14206.554,"text":"時至今日小米的面積只剩下91公頃1%不到真的很令人難過那我們其實原住民也經歷山地平地化的一個過程像我們的高山上以前哪有高麗菜"},{"start":14207.735,"end":14225.923,"text":"種滿了高麗菜以前哪有茶葉以前哪有水梨以前哪有蘋果所以呢山上種的植物已經不再是我們過去的作物或植物所以小米它面臨的問題很多像是種植的人口少而且那些人都高齡化"},{"start":14227.023,"end":14245.848,"text":"更可怕的是我們的小米品系在台灣原本是全世界最多的可是時至今日因為沒有人吃 沒有人種所以保種困難 快速流失甚至現在中國已經把小米變作是第二公糧因為它為了要抗旱當作是一個未來的植物"},{"start":14251.869,"end":14280.125,"text":"所以在這個地方生產端他說他不容易賣所以不種那市場端他說因為買不到所以不方便好 那我現在說小米他不是只有想要保種我們更希望的是把它昇華成飲食的行動保存我們民族的味覺記憶我們的孩子很需要小米但是我想說以慈欣為例她輔導那12間學校第一個每週給他們吃一次小米飯"},{"start":14281.326,"end":14293.624,"text":"然後呢 給他們種小米跟部落的農友合作做一些小米的變化料理做小米的宣講然後呢 進入到部落的文件站好 我想先問一下農糧署"},{"start":14301.138,"end":14327.345,"text":"委員好好 請教一下我們農糧署是副署長副署長我剛剛講了這麼多你支不支持我們的部落在地食材像小米 樹豆等等進入校園做營養午餐農糧署的部分原則上應該會支持那這一部分目前農糧署對於原鄉的作物我們也有在支持輔導好"},{"start":14328.365,"end":14337.536,"text":"那其實我在農糧署碰到一個障礙齁我過去也開過中聽會你們有一個非傳統性食品原料申請是很麻煩耶"},{"start":14339.245,"end":14362.28,"text":"我們的好多的月桃入菜老葉入菜很多都要被罰那個動作加速了沒有這個還要跟衛福部這邊因為那個可不可以當作食材這個部分要對我的意思說要加速要加速我們很需要農糧署的幫忙好不好好謝謝副署長那再請教一下我們的署長國教署署長"},{"start":14365.097,"end":14379.726,"text":"署長 因為這個專法是在我們國教署請教依您的經驗 這些部落在地的食材要進入到我們學校的營養午餐廚房會面臨哪些困難跟限制"},{"start":14381.446,"end":14389.01,"text":"第一個他可能如果在張Q的認定上這可能要鏈結起來這個我們會跟農糧署做了解農糧署據我了解最近在這個整體的認定上為什麼我們現在會98.41這麼高的比率也是農糧署做了很多的跟地方的合作第二點"},{"start":14400.635,"end":14427.754,"text":"可能在經費上經費上這一點剛好在前面109到111年我們給餐費我們直接給餐費到62元這樣的一個情況下對於量少它的經費可能要多一點的這樣也可以做一點支持那署長我的意思是說既然我們現在要立這部專法那您也很知道過去推動在地食材的一個困難那我很希望說這個部分我們要盡量的去協助輔導好 謝謝署長"},{"start":14430.877,"end":14444.993,"text":"對 剛才講的就是說門檻太高那部落的食材進不去學校的高牆那我們講的什麼碳足跡部落經濟部落足體農業在地產銷其實在這個地方都遇到了障礙所以我也請次長你能夠去關心這個問題"},{"start":14448.517,"end":14472.81,"text":"關心的是說你的公糧不是我的公糧你的營養午餐不見得是我想要的營養午餐所以這個部分其實我們有很多的在地食材我們都很希望能夠輕鬆的進入政府所講的這件事情怎麼樣從產地到餐桌讓它更順暢那我更希望的是說要有人吃啊有人利用啊才會有人種啊"},{"start":14473.63,"end":14500.605,"text":"那這樣子才是保種的真思維因為沒有人吃 沒有人利用 沒有人補助我們要談保種何其困難都要送到北極的種園庫這是很悲哀的一件事情所以我是希望說這件事情我們的政府能夠去介入 能夠關心連民間的慈欣基金會這樣的團體它都基於它對土地的使命感"},{"start":14501.625,"end":14522.25,"text":"對地球的愛護他都願意去募款但是他能力有限但是我是希望說我們的農業部我們的教育部 國教署大家一起共同的來推動協助我們這些的在地食材可以進入到我們學校的營養午餐那也希望呢 至少有沒有可能從原住民重點學校來示範 次長"},{"start":14523.769,"end":14550.936,"text":"我想委員的建議非常好,很前進這部分我們一定是願意來做相關的計畫因為涉及到地方的部分我們會跟他寫請他們來提計畫那我們如果可以的話我們當然會來讓部落的學校優先來示範這個如果能夠用這樣的方式來做飲食我想是部落孩童的福氣而且可以發展在地的食材在觀光文化旅遊上面都有幫忙"},{"start":14551.976,"end":14576.233,"text":"對 它就是一個良性循環其實我們談到的很多東西它都可以在這件事情裡面能夠完全所以為什麼說專法有時候就是一個宣示性規範性那很多特色包括食農教育在講很多特色在地食材是有地方的特色其實我們都很希望地方能夠發展出特色那如果在法規層面上譬如三張EQ的認證困難上面我們會跟衛福部還有農業部來協調"},{"start":14579.975,"end":14604.976,"text":"其實我要談的就是幾乎大家的版本都提到這幾個字鼓勵學校採用在地食材發展地方飲食特色但是要落實很難所以我希望說這個部分就是提醒我們教育部還有農業部能夠好好的去思考教育部的母法就是做一個規範那真的要做到有特色一定是地方的規劃計畫提出來我們一定會全力支持"},{"start":14605.596,"end":14625.857,"text":"那我們很難去為每一個縣市每一個學校由中央直接來規劃這不太可能的 也是不切實際但是我還是要講但是在規範上是有的我們在布的這個布板的條例裡面像第四條第十五條的樣子十三條都有提到就是說尊重在地文化在地食材"},{"start":14626.457,"end":14644.899,"text":"然後尊重這個認識跟尊重傳統及多元飲食文化尊重生命及自然環境我希望那個強度我們法的強度還是指導性再多一點因為到地方政府說一句實在話我們很辛苦就是說有政策然後再用政策工具再編預算來推動那這一部分"},{"start":14645.737,"end":14663.902,"text":"在經費的准許下我們會努力來做 好不好如果將來想辦法 大家一起努力地方政委也一起來分擔這個責任好 謝謝教育部 謝謝農業部好 謝謝主席謝謝武林華委員質詢 官員請回座剛剛聽到武林華委員講這個小米速鬥我肚子都餓了"},{"start":14665.022,"end":14676.987,"text":"我想這個在地的多元的食材真的是可以來考慮一下那我們待會在吳佩儀委員質詢之後我們會處理臨時提案那我們接著繼續進行質詢請張雅玲委員質詢有請次長請次長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":14691.343,"end":14713.387,"text":"市長在開始之前我不知道你有沒有看到今天早上的一個很大版的新聞就是有關於狼屍這個狼屍就是班導要女童雙腳打開給他偷拍還有教練性侵害32個兒童90次這個新聞我不曉得市長有沒有掌握今天還沒有看新聞不過這種新聞我們都會注意"},{"start":14717.008,"end":14742.891,"text":"那待會這份報紙我也就留給次長那我想最重要的重點就是說其實家長有個訴求一直以來都有一個訴求就是說過去在教育體系呢其實學校是可以透過不適任教師的系統去確認每一個他們招募的老師也好或是教練也好是不是有符合這樣子的一個不適任有沒有任何的罪行有沒有任何的犯罪證據記錄等等的但是其實家長完全是一無所知"},{"start":14743.672,"end":14768.352,"text":"那現在呢過去我自己在處理校園狼屍的案件或者是去年台北市信義區幼兒園的這個狼屍的案件這個毛俊生這個狼屍呢當時大家媒體都沒有在報導最主要是當時受限於那個兒少權法第69條不得揭露兒少事件身份資訊之相關規定可是因為後來保護司司長其實有出來說如果他符合公義的事實揭露"},{"start":14768.872,"end":14795.285,"text":"所以我想要了解就是說我們這個不適應的教師查詢系統呢是不是也可以提供給我們的家長可以來做查詢因為有時候你可能只有你老師可以查可是萬一這個老師跑到另外一個學校或是跑去外面開了這個工作室其實家長真的完全不知道這部分是可行的嗎我想我請我們有提過啦那但是有一些法規的部分我們請人事處來了解一下"},{"start":14797.07,"end":14823.609,"text":"跟委員報告一下,目前的法規並沒有規定說可以開放學校以外的一般人是不可以嗎?不可以我之前已經修了教育人員人員條例和教師法但是我覺得在法還沒有通過之前它是不是還可以有更積極的做法,可能類似公告的方式讓家長至少有機可循"},{"start":14824.269,"end":14850.918,"text":"其實我覺得那個過程裡面我看到很多個案就是那個學校本身或是任用的機關在查核上任用是一個問題他們可能沒有確實查核可是有一些是他可能他們發現只有這個資訊只有提供這個老師們自己知道家長不知道所以這個有前科的這一個不管是教練也好或是老師也好他跑去外面工作室開的時候"},{"start":14851.798,"end":14880.517,"text":"我們根本一般在外面的老家長其實根本無從得知其實現在幾個比較容易發生狀況譬如說教練譬如說這些才藝的老師我們其實現在都在加強這方面的那個通報系統以及那個確認系統就是說盡量讓這個可能性降到最低因為這個孩子他的表現權有限可是我覺得這個問題是在於來自於家長一而再再而三看到這些案例大家都非常的擔心會恐慌所以我在想我們是不是可以適度的來"},{"start":14881.678,"end":14910.757,"text":"跟各縣市研商啦有沒有更積極的方式可能是在各教育局上面公開這些資訊讓家長至少可以知道是不是可以試著去研商訪問看看對我想這部分我們如果已經確定的就是說基於公益性的揭露那這部分的範圍執行的就我們來研商好不好我們來研商看看在我們現在可行的法條的狀況之下再找找看還沒有可以做的做法這樣好不好查證上"},{"start":14912.398,"end":14936.905,"text":"好 謝謝那這大概什麼時候可以有一個進度呢我們跟業務單位來我們大概什麼時候可以再來跟教育部討論因為那個涉及到其他的各部會的各縣市吧我們那個有一些法規"},{"start":14939.49,"end":14966.382,"text":"要不然你來說明很多法規的限制我們那個不適應查詢系統的部分實際上是有很多的法規去我現在不是叫你開放那個不適應查詢我是說可不可以公告呢你不用查詢啊 讓他公告出來就可以啊我想這部分我們來研究啦 好不好好啦 沒關係我們事後再來保持聯絡啦好不好我想一個月內一定會有結果啦好 謝謝可以跟不可以"},{"start":14967.362,"end":14980.962,"text":"好 謝謝那再來就是說再來這個才化法今天他其實很多的委員都提出了非常多的建議啦都積極的想要為孩子爭取我覺得這是一件好事喔但是我想理想很豐滿現實很骨感"},{"start":14984.226,"end":15006.459,"text":"就是說國民黨應該很難料想到當時匆匆的通過了這個才化法之後竟然會去傷害到我們可能許多的一些相關的政策因為像據我所知行政院已經初估法律義務之外除了法律義務之外可能要減28%而且對相關的一些教育政策計畫可能會有些重大的影響例如我們的一些少子女化對策"},{"start":15007.319,"end":15034.059,"text":"學輔法的專輔教師曾志還有中小學數位學習精進進化等等的可能都會多少會有一點影響我知道現在還沒有定案可是可能會有影響所以我想我們之前第一會期其實已經開了公聽會要來針對這個營養午餐的一個專法來做討論但是我想時空背景已經完全不一樣了甚至我可能都覺得是不是公聽會可能要重新來開來收集大家的意見那我想我們就回到就是說"},{"start":15035.06,"end":15059.066,"text":"你現在來說我們到底還有多少錢可以來做這件事情我覺得應該是要比較務實的來討論好那就是針對於這個三張EQ的部分我知道我們現在每一年的補助經費大概是40億大概將近38億38億那我們的每一年其實是補助給每年的補助大概是74億修法之後還要再26億那"},{"start":15061.909,"end":15076.043,"text":"我想就是說在現在的這個物價波長然後我們的這個財化法的影響之後我想知道到底在我們明年的115年的概算上到底影響針對3張EQ這個的預算到底影響是什麼我剛才其實也跟委員陸續報告就是說"},{"start":15081.414,"end":15098.252,"text":"有比較穩定確定的教育算其實對於我們過去的補助它能夠穩定的提供這個是比較好的那因為現在整個國家財政的分配的方式尤其財化法或者是刪除凍結的一個模式當然對教育部重點比較少但財化法這部分"},{"start":15099.053,"end":15125.815,"text":"它確實會有一些衝擊那這邊的衝擊目前就處於不確定狀態我講的就是說你現在問我說我們會少多少我們只能概估就是說如果說有一些例行的不能那個國家政策譬如說很多都是國家政策啦你說少持綠化政策也是國家政策啊那到底行政院的態度是要整體的預算要怎麼切少了28%3700多億之後要怎麼切教育部要被切多少"},{"start":15126.215,"end":15148.586,"text":"那我們現在要如何預估我們目前也只能用推論的方式那我所知道的是我們內部啊業務單位其實在籌編五六月籌編計畫的時候其實也在想說每個單位如果都少30%的話會有哪些優先會減少所以這個部分就是跟地方講就是要跟地方談就是說如果像國教補助款國教署一年大概1600多億"},{"start":15149.486,"end":15164.024,"text":"沒關係我們就針對於因為我知道那部分還不確定性還非常大我想我們就針對於三藏EQ這件事情因為它比較是類似於中央要做的事情三藏EQ的話這個部分的補助也是要跟地方談這個部分也要談就是說這個部分營養五山基本上它真的是一個地方自治事項"},{"start":15164.665,"end":15179.212,"text":"是那我們過去用計畫來引導是因為當時的裁判法沒有修當然中央的裁員確實比較豐富動審之後大部分的那個裁員也統籌都算到中央所以我們當然過去對國民教育階段的那個醫務條件我們盡量來支付"},{"start":15180.913,"end":15192.006,"text":"因為我聽起來好像是說到底明年有多少錢可以來做這件事情針對營養午餐的這些事情其實是所以我說如果是處於不確定性的非常不確定的這樣才有辦法這樣的衝擊處於不確定性的還需要跟地方談嗎對不對對我們就必須要談要談就會處在不確定性了解了解"},{"start":15195.95,"end":15213.528,"text":"那我想就是說因為其實大家當去之前我們在討論一兩五三專法的時候就是說希望22個縣市不要太多的落差把所有東西一起拉回來在中央做但是呢去年國民黨的這個談話法大筆一揮又把錢揮到地方去了所以我想我們真的是需要好好的來跟地方來做剛才我說過對對對"},{"start":15215.049,"end":15241.047,"text":"有的地方同意 有的地方不同意沒錯 沒錯 好好在這來討論我想作為一個立法委員我們立法也要負起責任這才是責任政治但在下一個部分我想要來跟署長表達一個感謝體育署署長就是說我在今年的少年盃的競賽規則中是有看到頭頂球的蓄意使用進入了裁判的判決我覺得這是一個非常好的進步因為要確保我們兒童的腦部不要在發育期間受到傷害"},{"start":15242.208,"end":15262.994,"text":"但是裁判到底如何判斷這個叫蓄意的部分我不曉得說這到底有沒有跟教練來做詳細的溝通呢?包委員這部分我們正在跟足球協會做一個釐清畢竟跟他們的規則有關但我們往這個方向去那賽事的部分我們這邊辦理的賽事其實也就是在下半年才算是一個開始"},{"start":15263.536,"end":15283.823,"text":"所以這部分我還在處理當中對我想要因為其實家長都非常關心到底我小孩子怎麼樣的東西叫做蓄意投頂球所以這個部分請麻煩跟教練做一個詳細的說明才能夠確定我們執法的時候不會有任何的偏差那最後一件事情就其實我就是簡單的快速講一下我想讓部長看一下次長看一下就是說陳潔憲其實他在"},{"start":15285.764,"end":15307.679,"text":"講他小時候其實非常希望如果學業跟運動之間的關係可以找到一個平衡那這樣他們會有好的球技也會有扎實的知識基礎讓所有的孩子都可以在未來不管遇到什麼樣的挑戰都可以有更好的一個可能性那因為今天時間的關係我來不及問到這一題但是我想接下來我可能也會持續的來跟體育署跟次長這邊來更詳細的討論這個議題但是先讓我一分鐘要一個資料"},{"start":15313.001,"end":15342.214,"text":"在我們現在呢其實有客服的一些相關的補助案但是我找不到相關的執行細項好像體育署這邊也沒辦法給我到底有多少人參加多少班參加這些實際的校數的分配比在哪些縣市我完全一無所知是不是可以請體育署提供給我這樣子的資料呢可以嗎好那為什麼之前不給我勒"},{"start":15344.285,"end":15371.878,"text":"是不是來不及整理 因為我們之前要為什麼不給我們呢主長這邊來那需要整理 需要多久的時間整理因為我們要從縣市裡面去一個一個去發文請他們回這表示說過去並沒有做相關的統計對不對那我想這可能要相時的來去確認因為這會影響到孩子的受教權我們可能要積極的跟進大概什麼時候可以給我這些資料"},{"start":15376.007,"end":15383.474,"text":"一個月好不好一個月好謝謝謝謝張雅玲委員質詢官員請回座接下來我們繼續進行質詢請吳佩奕委員質詢謝謝主席我請教育部張料辦兼次長請次長備質詢謝謝"},{"start":15402.076,"end":15424.671,"text":"好 謝謝委員好市長好 今天我們要進行兩個法的討論的詢問第一個就是學校午餐學校營養午餐法那這個法我想大家都很重視我也有提案那為什麼大家會開始重視呢因為孩子的食安健康跟營養就是我們都需要來協助家庭來支持孩子的"},{"start":15424.991,"end":15429.213,"text":"那台灣的營養午餐專法是落後日本已經好幾十年過去其實在很多的座談公聽會上面都有所討論目前我們是在學生衛生法學校衛生法當中有相關的條文訂定那我們現在期待的已經不只是學校的衛生還包括了食材的把關營養師人力的補充以及飲食教育的推動所以我們需要一部營養午餐專法"},{"start":15452.682,"end":15467.318,"text":"那剛剛也聽到次長說我們也有布板已經在朝你討論那我們希望說目前已經送院了送院一個月之後發生財化法的問題那因為布板裡面有很多都是會涉及到增加經費的問題"},{"start":15469.56,"end":15476.984,"text":"那營養午餐又屬於地方自治權限規定所以這部分 財務法通過之後會產生很大的衝擊所以我們要再談 要跟地方政府再談所以我們希望說這一部專法現在已經抱怨了但是我們中央政府訂定法律都要跟地方政府來溝通討論因為畢竟營養午餐它的執行層面有太多都是在地方政府我們希望在溝通之後如果有一個共識的版本可以趕快送進立法院來大家一起談"},{"start":15497.534,"end":15501.957,"text":"那部長日本的這個學校幾時法他是在哪一年訂定我們現在看到在1954年就訂定所以他時間上是非常的早那我想有一個模式其實也可以給我們台灣做參考就是日本的學校幾時會"},{"start":15518.826,"end":15533.778,"text":"他這個學校幾時會是包括學校午餐用品的採購合約食材運送儲存都由學校幾時會來處理所以在日本的每一個地方政府他47都府道縣都有學校幾時會"},{"start":15535.359,"end":15540.806,"text":"那除了這個營養午餐之外呢他甚至我們在討論的在地食材他也會來例如說委託工廠客製化那以在地的食材來做適合學童的產品例如說呢"},{"start":15550.919,"end":15554.002,"text":"祁鈺縣他們有自製小麥嘛所以他們就有小麥跟豬肉做成的包子像福岡的幾十會他們就推出了他們現產大豆的醬油例如說京都的幾十會他們就來做他們京都的豬肉做成的可樂餅"},{"start":15567.375,"end":15596.778,"text":"所以我想這個都是特別為了孩子的營養還有口味來設計相當的貼心但是這樣的一個制度也已經在日本運作了70年當然台灣沒有辦法一觸可擊這個模式也沒有辦法直接移植過來但我想還是可以給我們做一些參考目前其實我們台灣對於例如說我們在偏鄉的學校我們教育部中央也是有補助中央廚房這個部分我們是補助多少錢"},{"start":15597.338,"end":15601.363,"text":"現在每年大概15億我們每年補助了15億運作15億那在這個這個當時會有這樣的想法就是我們的張酷上路之後發現很多偏鄉的學校因為他的數量畢竟比較少所以經濟規模不夠運輸也會困難所以呢有我們中央還有教育部"},{"start":15618.121,"end":15644.186,"text":"跟農業部一起來協助這個偏鄉的學校做聯合的採購我跟委員說明一下從108年大家提出要用專法開始上路其實剛才委員所提到的包括交通的問題包括食材的問題廚房的問題其實都後來陸續發了像偏鄉的中央廚房大概花了60多億在109年到111年的時候設立了專案然後現在每年固定的就是說"},{"start":15645.126,"end":15671.271,"text":"補助他運作就是15億車子可以開交通任何所以15億只是每年的運作但是在前期的設備前期那個已經建制完成我們已經補助了60億那這個部分呢協助偏鄉的學校進行聯合採購然後以及整個食材的聯合供應甚至農業部也有來協助一餐62塊已經補助到62塊了能不能說明一下我目前協助的方式我想謝謝我們請署長來"},{"start":15674.11,"end":15699.558,"text":"在109年之後蓋廚房設225條路線然後補助車子除工訓練除工補助營養師補助100名等等那類似這樣當時花掉63億那111年之後因為它要運作所以我們是整套運作之後每年給15億相關剛才建制之後要運作的包含人的經費啦交通啦這些都把它處理"},{"start":15700.878,"end":15726.992,"text":"有關農業部這邊在張Q的這個協助上在協助各地的小農建置平台來讓張Q能夠在當地落實以致能夠提升比例的部分農業部也非常的努力所以在平地一般地區張Q補助10塊在偏鄉補助14塊這些都有助於讓他那個門檻比較高單價可能比較高的情況下他採購比較容易那為了讓小朋友每一餐能夠均衡所以我們把它"},{"start":15727.872,"end":15752.078,"text":"讓他可以吃到每餐62塊中間差額也是由中央政府來協助是我覺得我們過去在偏鄉的地區因為他很難單獨來進行食材的採購供應運送等等所以我們有一個聯合的方式建立了這個食材供應的平台其實是一個非常好的模式也可以更加的去鼓勵就是使用他所在地的食材當時就是參考那個日本那個模式"},{"start":15753.598,"end":15767.446,"text":"我想未來這個模式我們在跟地方政府討論的時候也可以盡量來鼓勵讓它可以擴及到更多的縣市來推行好不好好 謝謝委員的建議好 謝謝那接下來我要請體育署署長次長請回委員好"},{"start":15770.319,"end":15772.861,"text":"我們要討論運產條例這一次我有提案那我希望未來可以跟院本來併案來審查討論那主要三點第一點就是希望未來我們在捐贈我們在鼓勵企業捐贈職業業餘運動的付稅優惠能夠提升我們現行版本也有鼓勵是能夠抵這個稅多少"},{"start":15796.821,"end":15811.671,"text":"百分之一百五是盈利事業的部分現行是一百五是那我們未來有沒有機會再往上來提升幫委員這部分我們目前在因為我們整個政府是一體的我們在行政院裡面我們跟財政部以及我們院內呢"},{"start":15812.812,"end":15814.615,"text":"還正在討論那我們在近期會提出一個願板然後再來我們委員會的時候來做一個審議鼓勵企業來捐贈我們的運動項目這個線型能夠扣除150這個也是2021年的修法所以我希望我們這次既然要修法了"},{"start":15827.972,"end":15832.633,"text":"當然要往上提升那我們希望目標剛剛林執委也提了是能夠來提升到250%我們一起來努力也會提到我的版本當中第二點就是我認為要新增一個項目除了職業業與運動之外我們也要鼓勵如果企業他是捐贈我們房賭基金這也是去年我們一起修法通過的嘛"},{"start":15847.637,"end":15856.864,"text":"希望能夠來推動政府要輔導推動防堵的工作那就是要成立防堵基金那如果企業他願意捐贈給我們防堵基金我認為我們應該也要有相關的這個租稅的優惠來進行鼓勵第三點呢我們運動產業應當要去比照文化產業來輔導企業可以投資"},{"start":15870.633,"end":15877.618,"text":"相關的措施我們現行的法規我看了一下我覺得主要集中在融資但投資其實相當重要其實很多企業願意投資但是他不知道什麼樣的團體需要適合什麼樣的模式這部分署長有什麼樣的想法報告委員其實這部分我們目前在運動部整個籌備過程行政院執行委員都有提到"},{"start":15890.567,"end":15896.274,"text":"我們也是往這個方向在努力當中不過我們最近也是跟國發會這邊也來在細談因為他依照他們過去的對文化相關的這些的協助啦經濟相關的協助那我們這細節我們還在院內還在做一個統整那我們也是希望往這個方向來努力看看"},{"start":15909.551,"end":15932.804,"text":"好那接下來呢是我們運動部要成立嗎在討論當中其中很重要的一點就是全民運動討論到全民運動就會討論到俱樂部那我看了一下過去我們體育署對於俱樂部的輔導大多是透過協會很少有直接但是我們成立運動部最重要就是希望競技運動也要全民化所以未來我們針對俱樂部的運動的輔導預計用什麼樣的方式"},{"start":15937.307,"end":15959.348,"text":"報告委員我想這部分最重要一點其實就是希望把產業的部分的概念把它引進進來當然我們很多的方法包括像我們面臨這個俱樂部推動我們過去有檢討過比較遭的比較遇到的麻煩第一個就是我們專業的這部分能力營運能力這部分是有問題的不足"},{"start":15959.588,"end":15972.142,"text":"第二個我們的社區的設施的確還不夠那再來是我們的這個社區俱樂部它的整個內容其實是比較不夠豐富所以我們接下來第一個當然我們去盤點開發透過公建計畫"},{"start":15974.565,"end":15996.453,"text":"或是校園開放等等我們來增加整個社區可以使用的場館第二個我們希望引進一些基層的運動事業能夠進來跟校方這邊來或是跟校外的這些設施來做承租那機制我們建在眼裡第三個當然就是我們講最重要的是它的內容我們希望聯賽的部分而不是一次性的活動就結束掉了大家往這個方向來推"},{"start":15997.293,"end":16000.936,"text":"我同樣有三點建議第一點就是我剛講我認為未來運動部對俱樂部運動集團體應該要直接輔導然後第二點因為俱樂部現行有非常多不同的性質有的是社區有的是商業的有的是成人有的是兒少的所以不同的俱樂部團體可能需要不同的幫助你們要納入他的差異化那第三點就是剛剛署長有提到場地"},{"start":16018.251,"end":16022.493,"text":"場地非常重要有場地才有運動發展所以呢因為去年我開過一個座談會署長來參加嘛當時我要求你們這個滑板的場地要持續增加你們後來回覆給我說已經有在規劃新北汐止的白袍湖社宅它也是一個運動休閒園區當中你們就會新設一個這個滑板場那目前這個計畫進度怎麼樣因為我聽說預算也遭到困難"},{"start":16042.83,"end":16057.644,"text":"包委員目前的規劃是還有滑板但是至於整個的這個案子是內政部在主導所以案子繼續走還是怎麼樣這個部分我沒有辦法回答好你們要持續去關心好不好那只有一處也是不夠的"},{"start":16058.385,"end":16064.387,"text":"主長我們去年在這裡討論了嘛說上一次的奧運大家說日本的滑板場地練習場社區的跟國際標準都那麼多台灣的實在太少所以還是要持續的包括新北包括台北各縣市持續跟地方政府討論只要他們願意規劃滑板場我們就來給予支持好不好好 謝謝主長 謝謝主席謝謝吳佩儀委員質詢 官員請回座"},{"start":16088.218,"end":16107.704,"text":"現在處理臨時提案今天有委員提出臨時提案暨議案請宣讀臨時提案鑑於國訓中心目前即將正式啟動三期整建工程其中有關網球場地的興建部分現系以戶外硬地五面"},{"start":16108.88,"end":16133.638,"text":"風雨球場人工草皮市面之方式進行規劃為查訪各國國訓中心與國家網球訓練基地之規劃幾乎類似之設計應經詢問國內數位精英網球員一點出此種設計如意於天應遞紅土備賽需求之選手及無法利用風雨球場相關訓練資源以及運科器材更失去風雨球場存在用意"},{"start":16134.979,"end":16156.241,"text":"為讓設置的場地運用極大化讓軟網、硬網選手在有訓練區要需求時都能使用避免國家珍貴運動資源之硬體設施無法充分利用問題原請體育署於一個月內邀請國內精英網球運動員提供對於設施興建之建議必要時援引"},{"start":16157.442,"end":16168.813,"text":"足球場設計變更設計之經驗儘速完成相關設計調整提案人 陳培宇 郭益晴 張雅琳吳佩儀 林一錦 范雲 宣讀完畢"},{"start":16171.836,"end":16191.643,"text":"請問提案委員或在場各位委員有無補充說明這個提案就是國訓中心因為即將要三期整建那他的這個網球場地目前的規劃是室內跟戶外是不一樣的那我們是希望說是不是國訓中心可以跟選手有更多的溝通跟討論讓我們未來這個場地是更適合他們來進行練習的"},{"start":16197.912,"end":16226.411,"text":"好 請問次長後官員有無補充說明好 我來說明就是在第二段的部分應該是請國訓中心因為他是行政法人而且他已經動工了當天是我去的那對於內容就是說最後一段的時候原請國訓中心然後倒數第二句必要時援引男女組長這個必要時這個變更設計的部分我們是保留讓他們去開會研議決定好不好這一句刪除這樣子那其他我們就照辦"},{"start":16228.516,"end":16246.553,"text":"沒有問題好 那請問提案委員或在場各位還有沒有其他問題或意見沒有好 謝謝如果沒有意見我們就照案修正通過那我們接著繼續進行質詢那我們有請楊瓊英委員質詢"},{"start":16257.404,"end":16260.168,"text":"謝謝主席 本席邀請次長請次長備質詢 謝謝好 謝謝委員"},{"start":16273.438,"end":16288.118,"text":"市長 本席從上一屆就提案希望可以訂定營養午餐的專法這一屆也有很多委員提案基本上這已經是超越黨派的共同主張"},{"start":16289.6,"end":16318.122,"text":"這個會期教育委員會也召開過公聽會 聆聽各界法會的意見所以在這邊首先要來請教部長當時教育部表示草案已經送到行政院在審議所以首先請教進度如何對 我們在去年113年11月的時候送行政院然後因為那個審議過程中 大概一個月之後我們立法院通過那個裁罰法"},{"start":16318.923,"end":16325.746,"text":"那剛才我有跟委員說明就是說事實上目前這個學校營養午餐法還沒上路之前我們依據學校衛生法16條22條到23條之3事實上我們已經陸續根據委員的建議包括營養師的補助啦偏鄉中央廚房的補助啦這個是在各個項目所以本校請教你們從去年送11月份送現在卡關卡在哪裡"},{"start":16342.975,"end":16360.666,"text":"現在目前就是行政會認為營養午餐的這個事項是屬於地方制度事項那現在每年所均攤的每年所應該例行要補助的已經高達74億那修法如果要再增加的話目前算起來在最少要27 26億多那大概會 哇 次長"},{"start":16364.829,"end":16393.268,"text":"我相信您啊也對教育就是非常的支持不管你在擔任民意代表或現在來擔任次長你都非常的支持我們的教育而且關心我們的孩子那但是如果剛剛陳如你所說的那我要在本席要再請教現在各個委員都提出也就是表示他已經是超越黨派的共同主張所以"},{"start":16394.028,"end":16421.424,"text":"你目前是否同意應該要設定專法來把關學校的營養午餐呢專法是超越黨派的精神讓孩子吃更好更安全那你同不同意設立專法但是中央跟地方的這個未來的地方採訪法之後地方要不要跟中央一起共同來負擔這個黨派還沒有達成共識所以我覺得這個誰跟你沒達成共識所謂的黨派誰反對啊"},{"start":16422.705,"end":16424.306,"text":"市長誰反對啊黨派還沒達成共識地方的縣市首長都是以各縣市的權益為最重要換句話說我們回歸到我們討論我們要把關我們的孩子吃的營養嗎"},{"start":16446.921,"end":16468.482,"text":"每年的74億加修法之後增加了26億如果照你這麼說 那請教行政院版會不會在這個會期會不會送到立法院來會不會如果裁判法的影響沒有好好評估 中央地方還沒有達成共識我們要怎麼去修法 增加這個市長你這個說法讓我蠻壓抑的"},{"start":16472.685,"end":16498.399,"text":"我們今天在討論這個專法你好好去審思接下來我要告訴你為什麼專法很重要監察院在上個月發布了新聞稿他針對於教育部沒有落實把關學校午餐餐點到今天沒有制定學校午餐專法這是監察院所提出各級學校仍有公餐熱量超標"},{"start":16499.46,"end":16522.151,"text":"供應水果類以及乳品類的食品份量不夠還有提供炸物以及魚肉類的半成品次數過多但影響了我們學童的健康發展所以市長在監察院要求教育部必須要檢討改進"},{"start":16524.132,"end":16527.596,"text":"所以市長我們當然有些屬於這個制度上的檢討我們一定會跟地方政府因為執行端在地方政府因為本席告訴你教育部雖然有學校午餐食物內容及營養基準"},{"start":16538.966,"end":16562.58,"text":"但是我們很清楚仍舊有很多的學校還是沒有符合到底是不清楚還是沒有辦法符合所以你們有教育部校園的這個食材登錄平台推動超過10年在這個推動當中你們的午餐資訊甚至有同一個餐點它的熱量它的差距非常的大"},{"start":16563.18,"end":16568.543,"text":"那等於是流域形式所以教育部你要怎麼樣去落實整個稽查制度呢我想這個部分我們會跟地方好好來談好你會繼續來繼續本席要告訴你為什麼專法這麼重要因為人力不足更是你一個重大原因因為你的午餐秘書啊大家都說是在吹工帝啊他也沒有家籍然後輪來輪去的好辛苦"},{"start":16591.494,"end":16601.75,"text":"好辛苦 這樣子的一個情況不斷的輪替 而且1153從業人員薪資偏低造成了年輕人他不敢接所以部長 這個務必要有專法來好好的來討論啊 是嗎"},{"start":16606.798,"end":16614.184,"text":"其實在沒有修專法之前我們也不斷增加營養師的補助啦你講的那個人力你現在所說的是目前樣態它已經產生這個問題所以你要有精進方案啊我們就陸續來加但是這個經費要中央跟地方談所以必須要好好的去精進喔謝謝你最後一個課題我給你喔因為我今天有提案也就是那個運動署我們這個運動產業發展條例"},{"start":16633.74,"end":16649.836,"text":"本席所提第24條跟第26條它的目的就是可以擴大民間企業對於體育活動的一個參與所以次長在這裡 署長在這裡你們有沒有版本 有沒有論版這也是跨越超越"},{"start":16650.656,"end":16661.982,"text":"黨派 大家都提案我們這個已經略為優先法案略為優先法案 進度在哪裡體育署現在已經在開會在研商這個稅賦的部分坦白講還沒達成控制體育署在研商 請問進度請問進度 這個近期會送來立法院嗎"},{"start":16667.51,"end":16694.106,"text":"包委員我們已經開始在審議在詢答了我們已經跟財政部這邊有做了初步的一個你們的KPI什麼時候可以送出來我們應該在最近這兩週會送到行政院來做審議兩週送到行政院因為我們非常的希望因為運動發展部呢我們力拼今年要上路大家全體一起來朝野的委員都已經提案行政院還沒有出來這個覺得"},{"start":16696.479,"end":16707.202,"text":"怪怪的那個法條其實只有一個是名稱的更動那我們就覺得說那個不管是怎麼樣我們的行政院應該要負責任啊沒有問題要有願板嘛這會期一定會送進來大家併審一起來所以要趕快加油我們期待願板趕快進來大家好好討論因為這個產業運動產業發展條例我認為對我們台灣來講的面向是非常的重要我想這部分我會打算公示啦"},{"start":16721.687,"end":16729.291,"text":"你是全力支持嗎有全力支持全力支持啊 所以你速度要加快啊好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝楊卿英委員的質詢請官員回座 謝謝接下來繼續質詢請林倩琦委員質詢"},{"start":16746.001,"end":16770.029,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那麼本席是不是先請我們教育部次長 張教授次長和我想會計處的這個吳副處長跟公務預算處的專委黃子涵專委一起上來好不好好 請官員以序備諮這是時間的限制 所以我想說先準備著那之後可能彭處長或許某種程度會麻煩您好"},{"start":16773.082,"end":16798.057,"text":"次長您好我們在今天這個學校公餐法的這樣一個議題裡面許多委員都提出了營養午餐的這個相關法案那我們知道在年報告裡面也說這個學校衛生法已經有做了一些規範可是如果在這樣的情況下大家都有這樣子的關心我想裡面點出了一個問題就是人力短缺經費不足還有公餐的品質參差不齊的問題"},{"start":16798.817,"end":16825.932,"text":"那當然很多人都依據了這個監察院所提的一個報告那審計部 抱歉 這個審計部這邊所提到一個報告2019到2024都有這樣子一個狀況那您在剛才回應我也一直聽到對專法的各項的一個評論那本席在這邊就直接問如果您剛才講的那一些考慮的要素都沒有的話您對專法的支持度 您的態度是如何"},{"start":16826.352,"end":16849.583,"text":"我講專訪的精神我們都支持所以精神上您支持所以才會有佈板現在我們有一些要討論的部分現在最大的問題是經費的問題OK 好 謝謝那接下來本席就討論一下營養午餐的補助還有財務方面的一個議題好其實我們現在營養午餐的政策比較已經有狀況的就是經費補助的一個不穩定性根據教育部的報告目前很穩定"},{"start":16850.883,"end":16862.677,"text":"您覺得很穩定嘛那我想這個很重要的一個問題就是說中央跟地方那本席這邊要提到一個問題就是說那目前您的補助大概在74億左右如果我的資料這邊是對的那當然未來你們要討論這個中央跟地方"},{"start":16866.841,"end":16886.375,"text":"我這邊要先提出一個問題很重要的是那全台22個縣市10個縣市提供免費營養午餐那其他縣市要收費那許多偏鄉地區經費就已經不足了只能提供冷便當或者是低價的團餐那這樣子的公餐品質對於偏鄉的學童其實有一些不太公平"},{"start":16887.035,"end":16904.334,"text":"早上在你們的這個討論內容裡面我一直聽到了北一女、建中等等那請市長您可以稍微再關注一下這個偏鄉的狀況目前偏鄉的中央廚房歷屆以來補助六十多億現在每年補助它包括交通費包括運作費用"},{"start":16905.871,"end":16923.424,"text":"已經這個21億好的那您有講到目前補助的這個經費嘛好所以我們有沒有考慮提供最低營養午餐的這個經費讓學童的健康及安全有一些保障其實我們今天其實一直在談就是說我們都願意可是這個經費在財發法之後"},{"start":16925.385,"end":16931.089,"text":"你一直提到財化法嘛 我們就目前的這個狀況市長 我沒有跟你提財化法的任何問題但我們受到財化法的影響是事實 未來的經費分擔確實是事實我覺得這個不能不談 謝謝那我們就談現在遭遇的這個問題剛才本席也聽到前面委員談到營養師那還有一個很重要的問題 本席這邊要談到儲供"},{"start":16949.663,"end":16963.311,"text":"所以一個根本的問題就是人力的問題那這個監察院的相關報告其實也談到每位營養師要監督目前您剛才也講到全國有500位公職的營養師但是每一位營養師要監督的是3600份午餐點每一位營養師縣市要"},{"start":16969.995,"end":16988.05,"text":"負擔八千名學生這你覺得顧得好嗎你的數字 那個委員你的數字可能會有點問題那你提供給我囉好 我們剛才其實報告裡面報告一百一十四年度我們法定應該聘的是四百七十四好 法定嘛你都聘完了嗎實際聘的是聘六百八十一還有專案經理人一百人所以現在有七百八十一人"},{"start":16988.51,"end":17004.08,"text":"那我們的布板修法裡面希望550人一人我們班級人數不太一定以550人為基準的話大概會增加兩億七千多萬我們在布的精神是支持的好 精神上支持嘛那你們一直講才化法那我們就才化法見了好不好"},{"start":17006.121,"end":17019.913,"text":"本席這邊很重要的就是說偏鄉剛才一直講到偏鄉我們不希望你們在處理未來的問題本席今天都沒有跟你談到財化法你自己把本席帶進這個世界所以本席不接受我們在講基本的這個問題在偏鄉未來再考慮到各縣市的財政希望教育部正視這個問題我們不希望"},{"start":17028.939,"end":17039.962,"text":"偏鄉或者是財力比較差的縣市在這個部分受到權益上的不公平最後運動部本席這邊跟你們提醒幾個問題整個運動產業發展條例我們希望這個會期是很重要的優先法案"},{"start":17050.925,"end":17068.571,"text":"但是目前在大家所提的内容上都以租税优惠为主但是我相信府院我们都在讨论如何推动产业化所以我们在除了调整租税优惠那在产业发展的一个长期目标上你们有没有什么做法那个来 署长"},{"start":17070.609,"end":17085.983,"text":"報委員我想運動產業我們面臨一個最主要的問題就是我們的消費人口規律運動人口的確是不夠多所以我們的產業才會在停滯所以我們目前按照總統的這樣一個政見競技運動全民化往這個方向我們來提出提升民眾參與擴大全民運動的一個基本盤"},{"start":17087.745,"end":17097.089,"text":"好的 署長我知道在私下跟您的交流當中其實您對於推動全民或者是用俱樂部或某一些跟內容相關的全民化我想您有很認真的在做但是本席這邊談到產業化那也希望在你這個方向上能夠有更大的一個作為最後提醒兩點"},{"start":17110.735,"end":17127.794,"text":"運動經濟的規劃跟本席從一來就談到單項協會的問題本席今天因為受限時間在這邊不多談但是單項協會如何在我們全民體育跟產業化的過程當中能夠有很好的一個功能這個是我們其實要處理的"},{"start":17128.274,"end":17141.809,"text":"那另外運動競技的證照制度還有資格考核的一致性公平性這個本席在這邊先做提醒那未來我會方法我們會入案好不好OK好謝謝謝謝林倩琴委員的諮詢請官員請回座接著繼續進行諮詢請鄭天才委員諮詢"},{"start":17158.246,"end":17181.031,"text":"主席 各位委員 有請次長請次長備質詢 謝謝委員好 次長好這個108年4月8號 今天財院做了調查報告有關學生營養午餐的部分教育部也很快的 也是在108年就擬計了這個學校午餐條例也開了很多座談會 協調會然後呢在"},{"start":17187.531,"end":17209.491,"text":"113年1月開始開了六場次的諮詢會議然後也擬定了這個高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例這都很好那現在一直提到這個才化法我們不能因為才化法然後就受影響因為"},{"start":17212.698,"end":17236.008,"text":"財化法不是教育部所可以去擬定的而現在立法院已經覆議行政院要怎麼處理你們要去請教行政院這第一個 第二就當時修財化法而言要給地方政府的3700多億"},{"start":17238.246,"end":17267.322,"text":"也有一個考量超增稅收的部分稅計剩餘的部分都是一個地方政府3700多億的預算來源之一當然這個也不是你可以決定的好那財政收支方法什麼時候會公佈施行到目前為止也是一個不確定好是不是會釋憲 釋憲的結果到什麼時候 何年何月 不知道"},{"start":17268.587,"end":17297.079,"text":"所以就教育部而演就教育部而演就行政院而演就中華民國政府而演要去解決這個事情有沒有辦法解決在這個你的法案條文裡面我們怎麼樣落入落一個條文財政說事化或法文法公佈修正公佈的話就怎麼樣"},{"start":17298.868,"end":17317.578,"text":"你才可以一直上路啊才可以上路好不好這是我的建議啦就怎麼樣就是要跟地方協調啦就是說分擔比例你原來都已經沒有影響到先聽我講你原來跟地方政府已經談了六場次的那時候還沒有裁判法的問題我知道所以你弄一個落日條款"},{"start":17319.654,"end":17342.707,"text":"財政收支方法修正的話怎麼樣如果今年不受影響的話我們都會一定會增加支出 不會減少市長我來 但是修法會增加 請你參考啦我的意見是給你參考 立法院審查會議的教育文化委員會審查的時候也可以做參考為什麼呢各部會現在行政院 院會"},{"start":17344.127,"end":17363.886,"text":"在財政收入方法公佈施行之後照樣審查法案照樣有審法案照樣有做法案到立法院我現在因為還有另外一個議題很重要的議題我們看這個近五年大專校園學生的出債協力從107協年度31.9"},{"start":17369.059,"end":17396.57,"text":"原住民跟非原住民的落差一直擴大到112懸念度擴大到34%這個是一個非常非常嚴重的問題教育對原住民組合園非常非常的重要所以這個部分我過去一直努力本來早期沒有啦因為95年開始"},{"start":17398.996,"end":17415.552,"text":"修了這個辦法本來沒有外加2%後來改為外加2%我們也接受但是實施到現在這麼多年雖然有部分的科學經過溝通協調努力從那個葉俊榮部長開始"},{"start":17419.437,"end":17443.414,"text":"有外加5%的少部分的科系但是一直希望你們增加也都沒有辦法增加所以我具體的建議就是說全部改為外加5%趕快修正因為因為現在少子女化很嚴重啊都沒有招滿啊學校都沒有招滿啊"},{"start":17444.502,"end":17449.416,"text":"我們的因為外加2%的關係我們就沒辦法我們只能"},{"start":17450.407,"end":17474.739,"text":"只能2%的那個入協力所以這個部分這個請教育部趕快的來檢討到底有什麼自愛難行的因為2%高教授跟我說2%其實數量就很大就招不滿了你現在再增加5%還是會有這個問題那到底是什麼問題為什麼招不滿那個原因才比較重要我們來不是我們沒有"},{"start":17475.359,"end":17501.166,"text":"學校沒有招募老師 但是我們考不上因為我們外加百分之二 我們就考不上啦現在高雄市這邊他們的講法就是說資料就是說你百分之二的名額你都沒有滿了你再增加百分之五 還是不會滿那個問題 結構性的因素是什麼比較重要哪些科系沒有滿 哪些學校提供資料總是要去面對啦我認為是直接就改為外加百分之五"},{"start":17502.386,"end":17519.8,"text":"我想這個要研究啦好不好因為那很嚴重啊34%多的差距好我們來努力批評這個差距謝謝委員的關心謝謝謝謝鄭天才委員質詢有請官員回座接下來我們繼續質詢請鍾嘉斌委員質詢"},{"start":17532.299,"end":17540.166,"text":"主席在場的委員先進列席了政務司長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請我們張廖次長次長被質詢謝謝"},{"start":17543.554,"end":17565.32,"text":"市長,今天我們談學校午餐法,偏鄉設央廚,學校午餐納長輩,老幼共餐處,共學處,跨部會分工,我們來看一下,因為有個題目先問一下,今天有人在問,請看下一頁,藍白三預算影響國軍出國深造,最近在臉書上網路上有說,有一個人說呢,因為呢,有一個人當事人向國家申請獎學金呢,被立法院預算三的停發,"},{"start":17566.909,"end":17586.609,"text":"部長有聽到這樣的一個網路消息嗎台灣博士生因為藍白山預算獎學金留學的獎學金暫時停發延宕一年有沒有因為是剛才委員質詢那我之前有聽說有聽說那你們看到說當事人也澄清了他不是拿教育部的經費是嗎所以我們也澄清了那結果這個是什麼是拿國防部的這個當事人是不是拿國防部的"},{"start":17590.868,"end":17608.171,"text":"所以我們看到國外旅會及出國教育訓練費教育部是統三百分之六十可留用但是國防部呢所屬的統三十五不能留用所以國防部的罪名受到影響嘛是不是這樣這部分可能要國防部那邊國防部來回問那教育部會不會受影響目前有沒有受到影響"},{"start":17609.588,"end":17628.345,"text":"目前教育部有沒有公費留考的留學但是我們的業務費裡面25%裡面具體的影響目前還在盤查當中好 請密切注意我們不希望有這樣的情況發生來 我們開始看下一頁目前超高齡社會以我屏東的長幼人口的比例來看因為我們屏東縣大概不到79萬"},{"start":17629.426,"end":17647.502,"text":"六到十五歲的在學人口就是國民教育人口呢77.3%那六十五歲呢反而是20.4%將近三倍好那這個嚴重的情況呢我再舉個例子讓你知道什麼情況來往下看那以車神鄉為例你知道車神鄉是誰的故鄉嗎"},{"start":17649.661,"end":17672.714,"text":"我們潘孟安秘書長的故鄉車城鄉65歲的長輩有1753人但是車城國中跟車城國小全部的在學人口6到15歲的一共不到600人我們現在想想看部長請教一下 次長請教一下假如要在車城辦營養午餐你覺得有可能用個中央廚房嗎"},{"start":17674.256,"end":17677.26,"text":"其實地方政府如果提出計畫的話你們會為600個不到的學生的地區設一個央廚嗎央廚我們有一個經濟規模"},{"start":17683.838,"end":17704.157,"text":"這個央處的話中央廚房的話大概都是大概兩三千人吧但是它會有一個是的有個公餐區但是也不能太遠啊你太遠的話呢超過備餐時間會有營養品質的問題對不對好往下看來我們來看一下老幼共學是一個補償的學習為什麼要提到老幼共學呢你知道嗎現在什麼時候實施九年國教的"},{"start":17705.825,"end":17731.905,"text":"1968年好所以說現在70歲以上的長輩啊當年他年輕的時候不是他私學是國家沒有提供他念國中的機會是不是這樣子可是現在孩子可以念12年啊對不對所以你認為如果現在有機會讓這些70歲以上的長輩回到校園來是一種補償的心理是不是可以補償他當然如果這個地方有一個完備的比較好的一個規劃就補償他嘛對在政策性引導這是一個好的未來"},{"start":17732.245,"end":17757.381,"text":"所以我們說老幼共學其實不是因為年輕的孩子少了我們把老人家抓來學校 不是是這些長輩在年輕的時候因為國家的設備資源不足他們失去了這三年可以再學的學習期間我們要補償他 我們現在看所以我們來看一下屏東的我們老幼共學領先台北市五年我們利用老人日照 私自據點和學校的閒置空間讓社區共同使用來老幼共學但是老幼共學有一個問題"},{"start":17759.342,"end":17776.807,"text":"長輩他對於到學校裡面去學什麼國中小的課程沒有興趣你知道長輩最有興趣做什麼事情嗎最有興趣是什麼做實作他希望把他的生命經驗跟小朋友分享然後呢從小朋友那邊得到他對現在的知識小朋友最常教長輩什麼事情你知道嗎小朋友在老幼過程中最常教長輩怎樣利用手機網路"},{"start":17785.328,"end":17800.477,"text":"好 往下看來 那麼另外我們提到跨世代學習也在屏東屏東基督教醫院發展的食農勞用共學用農學 食農教育的基礎讓長輩跟小朋友共同去了解好 最後要講結論了往下看以鄉圍單位來共餐"},{"start":17802.398,"end":17824.651,"text":"教育部支持之下在屏東縣投資了將近2億做了一個宿舍跟中央廚房可以供應500份午餐大同中學在屏東市區我的母鄉那邊好幾個國中加起來學生整個500份呢還不夠所以如果以鄉鎮為公餐單位來設營養午餐的央廚的話恐怕都會可以偏鄉做不到是不是這樣子"},{"start":17825.796,"end":17841.69,"text":"沒有錯好 那我們往下看所以呢我之前在2020年的12月的院會執行我提出鄉鄉有央廚但是呢現在又加上三張EQ教育部有經費支持 是不是我們政府來設立央廚食材才統一的國產品教育部支持嘛"},{"start":17842.884,"end":17868.57,"text":"支持但是這樣就成鄉分佈不均啊我們大概只能在這些人口密集區設秧族人口細胞遞廣人稀的地方恐怕有困難怎麼辦來我給你一個建議什麼意思把供應能量如果大於在學的學生還記得車城鄉嗎車城鄉的學生不到600個可是老人家有1700多個如果把這些的共產隊拿進來車城鄉設個秧族有效益的您同意嗎"},{"start":17869.998,"end":17896.008,"text":"獨具老人 文化健康站 關懷據點還有學校都納進來這個跨單位的話我們就是要對 跨單位說要分工嘛 往下看最後 鄉鄉有央廚 跨部會來促成實現教育部來協助在學校的空間設央廚衛福部幫長輩的餐食經費補貼而教育部可以媒合農業部可以媒合在地食材您覺得這樣的部會分工 您支持嗎教育部支持嗎"},{"start":17896.308,"end":17904.007,"text":"如果部會能夠分工 那屏東已經有小規模事辦成功的例子我覺得是可以來考慮的好 謝謝主席站起來 這是我的結論"},{"start":17906.755,"end":17927.008,"text":"超高齡社會把教育權利還給長輩提供老幼共學並以共餐為基礎讓老人家來學校吃一頓午餐同時來一個老幼共學另外鄉鄉有央廚希望能夠跟農業部還有衛福部共同的合作將我們央廚的共餐的對象把長輩引納入我們共同來推動好不好好謝謝委員關心謝謝謝謝市長謝謝主席"},{"start":17929.617,"end":17932.504,"text":"謝謝鍾嘉賓委員質詢 歡迎請回座 謝謝我們接著繼續質詢 請洪孟楷委員質詢"},{"start":17947.213,"end":17961.383,"text":"好 感謝主席 麻煩請我們張廖次長跟體育署政署長請次長 署長對質詢好來 次長 署長 簡單先請教有沒有看到最近日本有什麼樣的體育大事"},{"start":17962.349,"end":17989.136,"text":"就是那個稻妻跟那個小熊小熊的海外賽嘛對不對那在前幾天在記者會的時候大谷翔平選手也被問到當時應該是我們台灣的媒體朋友有問他說有沒有考慮過在台灣來打比賽那他那時候很當然很客氣啦他是個身為世界一級的棒球員他回答是說如果能夠在台灣球迷面前比賽是很幸福的事情"},{"start":17989.676,"end":18008.617,"text":"好 那也有人開始有討論我們有沒有機會因為去年是在韓國打MLB的海外賽今年在日本打MLB的海外賽那有沒有機會我們有爭取的空間其實已經在談就是說這個台灣也可以爭取不過如果從現實面來看"},{"start":18009.938,"end":18028.407,"text":"因為明年有經典賽那後年可能又遇到那個十二強或者是那個奧運的那個選拔那二零二八會有奧運賽所以其實在討論結果最可能是在二零二八之後是等於有看到我們中華時報的會長也是我們立院同事蔡吉昌會長有講到他講的確實是目前比較有可能的時間點是那站在教育部這邊當然未來的運動部我想也都會支持這樣之類"},{"start":18038.131,"end":18057.291,"text":"不管是教育部或是未來的運動部其實本席有一個很大的想法跟期待在於是說這雖然是NLB官方所主導的但是就各地方不管日本不管韓國其實他們政府的力量給予支持也有很大的一個部分那一樣台灣在棒球來講是我們的國球"},{"start":18058.772,"end":18084.327,"text":"我們也希望是說能夠把最高水準的比賽來到台灣甚至因為他們這一次到期跟小熊打他們還先跟日本的職棒球隊交流熱身所以他其實對於整體的運動產業發展帶動絕對是有正向幫助市長你同意吧對我想我同意就像韓子其實這今年也來了三隊也在打熱身賽也引起了好幾千人在看所以我覺得那個是非常好的一個現象"},{"start":18084.667,"end":18112.617,"text":"所以我們從現在假設我當然不是說馬上期待說明年NLB就可以來我們這邊打海外賽但是如果假設以二零二八二零二九為一個目標五年的一個計劃次長有什麼想法我跟你講身為球迷的你跟我我們都期待如果我們有這個能力來邀請那地方這個各民間也都配合包括中子大聯盟因為一定要是那個職棒聯盟來協助才有可能的話那我樂觀其成而且會全力促進"},{"start":18113.997,"end":18128.031,"text":"當然不只樂觀其成還要全力促成那促成很大的一個部分就是我們今天要提到的運產條例的一個修法24條跟26條嘛2021年的時候那時候大家一起共同推動就是讓它有150%的這樣的一個"},{"start":18130.233,"end":18150.377,"text":"優惠稅額能夠來支持我們的運動產業帶動整體的發展那我請教兩三年過去了這幾年的這個帶動投入這個產業的這個金額數量金額其實是在成長不過就是說到第二年已經到10億左右然後到去年是11億左右那我們的上限是多少上限是30億還沒用到對啊"},{"start":18153.496,"end":18173.987,"text":"市長所以這是為什麼我們提出來修法這是環環相扣的喔就是說我們希望有更高水準的比賽來我們台灣但另外一個部分我們給予的不管是支持讓這些企業支持運動產業的部分我們有沒有那個可以在更鬆綁的空間或是更加強的力道因為2021年150%到現在我們那時候設了30億的天花板可是這兩年只有10億跟11億"},{"start":18182.432,"end":18188.029,"text":"所以距離那30%的天花板我們還有20億的成長空間那不能"},{"start":18189.485,"end":18212.085,"text":"我們就是想說那沒關係反正就150%要來院者上鉤要投就投不投拉倒所以本席以及我們今天不管藍綠的委員也都有提出相關的修法版本可能有希望是說調高200%250%等等的部分那請教因為你們今天教育部給我們的回覆是涉及公平性建議跟行政院版本並案討論"},{"start":18213.246,"end":18235.392,"text":"那什麼時候行政院版本會出來我們兩個禮拜會送行政院兩個禮拜內送行政院檢查所以現在已經有研議了包括說可能討論我到200%的時候可能會增加多少250%增加多少或者是因為每一個政策一定都會有邊際效應嘛我可能到哪一個程度的時候是收益最高你譬如說放寬到500%說不定反而沒有250%來的效果好"},{"start":18239.374,"end":18254.348,"text":"這點您可以理解嗎所以兩個禮拜後會送行政院那行政院會不會很快的還是要再交其他財政部等相關的部會甚至他有沒有辦法通過院版正式送到立法院有信心在這個會期送出來嗎"},{"start":18255.829,"end":18279.284,"text":"對我想一定會因為行政委員已經列為本會期的優先法案所以我們一定會送進來跟委員的案並審那在不管有沒有動的法條我們都願意來聆聽委員的意見好所以剛剛次長特別提到了就是說這個會期行政院運產條例24、26條以及其他條文的修正院版會送進來立法院我們在併案討論我們等你會期喔這個會期到531喔只剩兩個月喔"},{"start":18285.046,"end":18311.14,"text":"OK沒有問題我們來努力市長突然間搖身票好像變院長的感覺了那麼拍胸部保證我欣賞你的努力我也希望真的能夠送進來因為這樣子我們共同來討論還可以真真正正幫助到我們運動產業進一步的築更大的夢好不好好謝謝謝謝洪孟楷委員質詢官員請回座謝謝那我們接著繼續質詢請李彥秀委員質詢"},{"start":18320.822,"end":18324.067,"text":"謝謝教委 我可不可以請政事有請次長備詢"},{"start":18327.678,"end":18343.525,"text":"謝謝政策 我希望等一下你對我的回應也可以像回答洪孟凱這樣子我想這幾個條例不管是哪一個政黨委員大家都很關注希望可以這個會期通過部長我是一個孩子的媽媽我相信你也是為人父我應該沒錯嗎學校的營養午餐非常重要不僅要兼顧他是足夠營養但更重要的是他要好吃"},{"start":18352.808,"end":18381.367,"text":"再營養不好吃的孩子不願意吃全部都丟掉那叫做浪費到最後變成下午去買零食一下課衝去買零食買飲品這個就被造成最後肥胖症我們台灣的孩子很多只是超過那個營養不良的狀況太瘦或太胖都有反而是不健康這個是我要關注的議題那我也關注到兒萌為這個國中生營養午餐評分的時候其實只有對於我們現在營養午餐只有51.3"},{"start":18382.908,"end":18402.752,"text":"这是一个不及格的分数营养午餐不够营养或不够好吃这都是现在的问题那因为我今天时间不够多包括我们现在营养午餐每周够用两次以上的眼菜罐头还有碗内的食品还有包括还有重组的七块培根等等都是有问题的那整理而言不到三成也就是27.9%的菜色全部被吃光这就是我刚才讲的"},{"start":18407.433,"end":18424.67,"text":"營養午餐味道不夠好太油或這都造成剩菜的原因到最後變成孩子去下課趕快衝去買零食來裹腹這個是現在最大的問題那另外一塊也就是我們現在的營養午餐其實就是我們現在食安系統性的另外一個"},{"start":18425.771,"end":18451.366,"text":"有可能發生問題因為餐點常常比較早做悶了好久或不夠安全或運送的過程有問題反而造成系統性的食安問題這個是我們現在發生最大的狀況包括現在2023年有1491人攝取我們的營養午餐發生問題所以營養午餐有可能有系統性的問題所以"},{"start":18452.907,"end":18479.367,"text":"我要就教於政次你也是父親我想我們都有同樣的感覺知道營養午餐的這個草案其實非常重要我們2019年就已經提出來我們希望趕快把這個營養午餐條例可以出去但現在都已經是第三個會期談到現在所以我們營養午餐法我非常希望在這一次大家各政黨支持之下不同版本大家有共識之下可以盡速的完成"},{"start":18480.107,"end":18502.696,"text":"我們現在營養午餐的全國大概只有630名營養師在做協助其他沒有營養師的部分就是教職員 護理師 營養師兼任有營養師的也就算了但是這次你應該清楚知道我要講的現在學校的老師 教職員又有行政業務 又要教學 又要備新的課程"},{"start":18503.576,"end":18518.268,"text":"其實是非常辛苦他還要再堅韌管理營養午餐所以營養午餐管不管得好你我心裡都有數所以很難把營養午餐照顧得全心全意我們希望達到的目標做得更好"},{"start":18519.148,"end":18539.891,"text":"這就是現在在學校營養午餐的問題這也是凸顯出我們營養午餐條例這個法案競訴必須要送出最主要的目的所以我想你我都不希望都希望回歸到專職去處理營養午餐絕對不再是由教職員兼職我說到現在你應該同意我的說法"},{"start":18540.131,"end":18554.419,"text":"校職員兼職已經改善了就是現在的那個比例已經降低就是這幾年來108年我們大概提出午餐專法還沒有立專法之前我們也是依照學校衛生法在做管理我知道但是你降低了比例其實這都不應該是"},{"start":18555.74,"end":18559.886,"text":"都不應該是教職員去兼任我知道你有降低我們是逐年在改善但是他畢竟不是專業我們希望就是由營養師來去做處理由護理師來去做處理由教職員來做處理雖然你說降低比例但由他來處理還是怪怪的"},{"start":18572.364,"end":18578.647,"text":"所以我覺得這不應該是我覺得我們的目標應該是由專人來去處理營養午餐我們的目標應該是這樣而不是由教職員來專任嘛那我覺得這個都不是應該是我們教育部主管應該有的態度所以這是第一個點我覺得這個法案送出去大家有共識盡速的處理因為已經談了三個會期了我想大家有共識應該盡速的處理"},{"start":18597.936,"end":18624.318,"text":"那另外我要提到就是譬如說芬蘭跟瑞典他們有提供義務教育的營養午餐包括日本都有給食的相關的設備包括運送的過程經費都是有國家負擔所以我再一次提醒就是說我們這個法案送出的時候有一些學校我們可能經費不足或偏鄉經費不足我們應該去思考說包括給食的設備包括營運的這部分陸續都有補償"},{"start":18625.579,"end":18645.717,"text":"對 我們希望不是互循 因為有的地方有 有的地方多 有的地方少所以曾賜 所以我想這個部分我覺得我都希望是整部法案裡面我們把它討論得更周延 更完整不會有偏鄉成鄉的差距這是以上我今天質詢的重點也希望這個會期大家有共識可以儘速的通過好 謝謝委員關心謝謝曾賜 謝謝"},{"start":18649.157,"end":18655.499,"text":"謝謝李燕秀委員質詢 觀眾請回座我們接下來繼續進行質詢 請吳思瑤委員質詢謝主席 請次長請次長備質詢 謝謝好 謝謝委員 委員好"},{"start":18668.348,"end":18686.196,"text":"次長辛苦了已經中午了大家都需要休息但我也很快速的掌握我僅有的時間我今天在這邊聆聽教文會委員的質詢我不斷的聽到在野黨的委員說不要跟我講才化法今天不是講才化法"},{"start":18687.236,"end":18713.195,"text":"但问题是财化法就是各级政府财政的根本大法它等于是国家财政的准限法任何的预算执行何况现在要另立新法都关乎制度的健全以及预算哪里来怎么可以不谈财化法呢在野党的委员是不是肇事逃逸啊"},{"start":18714.511,"end":18734.101,"text":"修了才化法最後屁股拍拍走了不要跟我講才化法不要跟我講才化法我認為這不是理性負責的國會議員那這幾天我召集了教育部從國教到高教各個私處我們不斷地在搶救教育預算"},{"start":18734.921,"end":18762.582,"text":"所以今天我要跟您來討論本席在這幾屆立委的任內我投入催生我爭取的預算我當然特別在乎我不希望他因為總預算扼山扼東我更不希望他因為才化法來讓整個預算都喊咔都斷錘首先我聚焦在美學教育您知道思瑤最最在乎的夏業"},{"start":18764.523,"end":18788.416,"text":"自曉你一定非常熟悉學美美學計畫六年了當初從無到有 吳思堯一路催生2020年我們學美美學的計畫雖然是小規模 小預算 小計畫但是它有大影響 大效益它甚至獲得日本Good Design設計大獎的年度世界大獎Best of the Best"},{"start":18789.016,"end":18814.654,"text":"以前是台灣人去日本看日本的校園空間改造現在是日本人帶團隊來台灣學習六年的學文美學計畫校園空間改造完成了109所學校教師專業發展空間也完成了三個縣市獲得補助但是但是他預算可能沒了下一頁"},{"start":18815.695,"end":18831.427,"text":"第二个也是本席催生努力的美感教育刚刚讲的是空间环境现在讲的是整个课程内容美感教育一样是六年有成进入了第三期我们完成了2960个课程案例"},{"start":18834.89,"end":18863.209,"text":"培育出2133位的种子教师我们全台湾有1907个学校参与受惠的学生高达47万人而现在我们更跟文化部扩大合作美感体验的教育下业所以次长预算被二砍二删然后明年还面对才化法各个私处大家都"},{"start":18864.42,"end":18879.227,"text":"人心惶惶大家都很擔心那個中央一個指令因為立法院砍了三七五三一挖走了然後各個部會都要從自己的業務去尊潔百分之二十八點七"},{"start":18880.447,"end":18895.529,"text":"我很擔心我不樂見所有的美學美感的教育最後會被犧牲如果你們優先從這些美學美感的教育因為大家覺得文化是什麼吃飽了肚子再說"},{"start":18896.85,"end":18923.778,"text":"優先從這些美學美感已經非常有規模很可能因為它喊咔斷吹而復之一炬功虧一簣我在這裡請求真的是請求學美美學計畫預算不多只有五千四百萬一年由師藝司跟國教署分擔而美感教育第三級每年三點三億是中央要補助地方跟地方政府還有文化部來協力"},{"start":18925.558,"end":18951.623,"text":"絕對不要動到我們的美感美學教育可以嗎努力嘛可以嗎我為文化發聲我想我們這部分是真的很想努力不過整體的衝擊真的還是有待評估我只提點您不要因為文化是吃飽了以後再去面對的是台灣過去有這種錯的思維這些預算不應當被優先犧牲我只做這個提醒"},{"start":18951.943,"end":18978.831,"text":"好 謝謝 我想地方政府我們會提醒他們就是要接好 錢接好了 業務也要接好因為我是計畫的催生者 我比誰都在乎下一個 回到今天主題我再佔用兩分鐘 不好意思主席 謝謝校園飲食法其實我是立法院第九屆第一個提出法案的第十屆我也有提出校園飲食法但是這一屆我自己的法案還持續的在研議我還沒有丟出來 為什麼"},{"start":18980.592,"end":18993.387,"text":"因為我知道我們要增加資源增加人員中央想做可是地方政府還沒有共識所以現在如果立法委員覺得修法立法很簡單我條文寫一寫丟出去就好而不管他能不能夠執行我認為這樣不負責任"},{"start":18999.654,"end":19014.788,"text":"立法委員來自各個縣市大家如果想修這個專法那大家負責任回去跟自己所屬的縣市政府來協助溝通您同意吧我同意這個這樣才能夠加速讓立法真的能夠完成下一頁"},{"start":19015.709,"end":19031.681,"text":"而關鍵就是才化法嘛您剛報告說得很清楚現在已經擴大了幫助各級政府補助每年74億讓學生吃得健康吃得安全吃得有品質吃得有文化每年74億未來如果現在趕快立法還要再增加人力營養師午餐殖密每年還要plus26億我們認為要做但是誰來買單"},{"start":19043.01,"end":19055.439,"text":"這就是我說的如果各位委員認為立這個專法如此重要我也在乎我是第一個提出倡議的委員但是大家把這個責任帶回去一起協助跟地方政府來討論未來才化法3753億回歸各個地方地方也有責任來協助分擔這樣這個活動有可能用錢走對不對"},{"start":19068.977,"end":19078.553,"text":"現在是教育部面臨最大的現實的問題你們持續溝通中好 最後兩頁很快的說如果沒有這個專法 我們的校園食安就做不了嗎"},{"start":19080.596,"end":19099.007,"text":"這幾年來我們用了學校衛生法作為best我們修改了所有教育部的行政規章我們落實了校園食安防護網我敢說是史上最嚴的我們的三張EQ從2019年的普及率只有56%到現在2024年年底已經來到98.67%三張EQ看到成果我們另外給蘿蔔也給棒子"},{"start":19110.134,"end":19118.319,"text":"提高學生的餐食補助史上最高一個學生一餐補十塊中央給錢偏鄉給十四塊中央買單這是蘿蔔棍子是什麼我當初跟著國教署長您還是立委我們一起跟國教署把3368個學校的營養午餐團善契約一個一個拿出來看從契約下手我們要確保學生在校園吃的每一口肉每一口菜都是Made in Taiwan對不對"},{"start":19140.915,"end":19153.385,"text":"所以史上最好的食安防護網我們努力做到如果還有不夠我們繼續精進但是不能夠以藥力專法才做得到我認為這個說法太過簡化"},{"start":19156.787,"end":19177.618,"text":"對 其實陸續在做 108年大家提出專法還沒有落實的時候都透過學校衛生法 透過行政的手段不斷的增加資源 解決偏鄉的問題 補助弱勢兒童還有食材的補助 我想都一直陸續在做是 好 最後一頁 謝謝主席 我知道您站起來了我們也要透明公開 食材的追溯溯源也在我們上一屆做到了"},{"start":19178.018,"end":19204.151,"text":"伍思瑤催生了比較我們疫情的疫情儀錶板我們催生了校園豬肉儀錶板所有的食材溯源Made in Taiwan的食材每一個學校都可以追蹤包括老師包括家長所以現在還沒有專法之前行政作業能夠做的一定要持續強化但是如果要立專法我們就要負責任的跟地方政府協調好經費的分擔這才是正辦"},{"start":19207.373,"end":19210.958,"text":"就朝這個方向在做好 也謝謝主席我們跨黨派一起努力 謝謝"},{"start":19228.031,"end":19242.857,"text":"謝謝主席請次長大家也辛苦了請次長被質詢辛苦了謝謝我們今天在談這個營養午餐結果大家午餐都還沒有吃委員好不吃了我在去年去年我們有辦過共聽會"},{"start":19244.257,"end":19259.854,"text":"關於這個營養午餐有辦過公聽會那其實在去年底的時候的總諮詢我也問過卓院長就是說本席當然是希望能夠制定這個學校午餐的專法啦當然有幾個點出來就是說第一個我們這個要強化兒少的"},{"start":19261.176,"end":19264.278,"text":"飲食營養的教育補足校園午餐的專業能力確保學校營養午餐的經費能夠透明公開鼓勵學校自設廚房減少食安的風險讓營養午餐成為教育的一環"},{"start":19280.191,"end":19305.251,"text":"那當時候我是有這個想法啦那我在總諮詢的時候也問這個卓院長就是當時候的這個黑白大廚啊這個韓國列印集這裡面有一位進入這個前十名是一個學餐的廚師叫做李美英然後呢這個為什麼韓國的這個學餐廚師能夠進入這個黑白大廚的前十名那發現說"},{"start":19306.973,"end":19321.424,"text":"韓國因為他們有學校給食法每個學校他們的廚房都是用公辦公營的模式所以每個學童每餐的預算高達新台幣是200塊所以他們預算夠而且是公辦公營能夠讓廚師廚工能夠做出非常美味讓學生能夠吃得很好也很有營養的營養午餐"},{"start":19335.675,"end":19342.178,"text":"那其實那時候我還問這個卓院長說那是不是這個能夠去學校吃一下營養午餐看一下說現在的這個營養午餐跟他所認為的營養午餐有沒有這個差別"},{"start":19352.193,"end":19371.379,"text":"談到這邊我主要還是要問這個次長因為這個財劃法這個附議案沒有過那在你們的報告裡面有提到我認為這還是主要的原因就是說財劃法沒有通過所以你們每年要補助這一個經濟弱勢學生的這個74億總共加起來74億就是"},{"start":19376.681,"end":19397.487,"text":"補助經濟優勢學生午餐21億然後學校午餐採用國產可溯源的食材補助38億然後推動中央這個偏鄉學校中央廚房計畫15億這74億這74億是我們是全額補助地方嗎是我們都是全額補助地方這74億就是中央負擔的部分全部都是中央負擔好"},{"start":19398.308,"end":19415.769,"text":"那現在因為財務法復議案沒有過那中央的這個整個預算大概有3700多億要下放到地方那我們先不管國防預算國防事務教育部的預算大概有28%左右會被釋出那所以接下來這74億的補助就沒有辦法"},{"start":19417.651,"end":19444.132,"text":"就是要由地方自己來處理就對了我們是認為如果將來要去談這個權利義務的話那這一部分應該我參與地方制度法裡面規定是地方權限所以這一部分是不是能夠移交由地方來負擔就是我們一直在談這個錢跟權要把它談清楚那如果說地方現在因為財化法釋出了這麼多的財源那所以呢在這部分的話就是中央希望說未來就是由地方政府自己來做處理就對了"},{"start":19444.893,"end":19459.579,"text":"我們目前是這樣子的一個方向然後還有說這個26億是這個有關這個營養師午餐的這個植密還有廚房設備等等這總共加起來26億是如果我們這一次的專法在修的話最少"},{"start":19461.059,"end":19484.75,"text":"最少譬如說營養師我們按照這個布板的550人一個的話那我們必須要再增加263那大概2億7千多萬那這部分其實都用在國中小啦所以我們是希望說是不是就由財化法之後他的財源增加了就是由地方來吸收那這個部分修法還沒修嘛那你修法之後增加地方的負擔是不是應該跟地方政府跟他協商好"},{"start":19485.65,"end":19514.13,"text":"對 那有些地方財化法受益比較多有些地方他覺得他沒有受益那這個要如何協調也是一個技術啦好 那所以我聽很多委員對次長這個質詢還有你的回覆就是說我們教育部希望這個未來如果有一個營養午餐專法的話精神你們都是支持我們是支持的但是在預算這方面在經費這方面能夠再跟地方政府對 中央地方一起來談啦就是說這個"},{"start":19515.391,"end":19537.356,"text":"這個權利義務真的要談清楚我們來修法那個將來才有辦法落實或者那個教育金會這樣處在不穩定的狀況下那裁判法到底會影響教育部多少預算大家都還在盤所以是談好我們沒有辦法輕易在修法過程裡面承諾要跟過去一樣百分之百補助地方沒有辦法所以是談好之後沒有能力啦教育部會有個版本出來嗎如果能夠談成的話如果能夠談成的話好"},{"start":19543.464,"end":19571.161,"text":"那這個是有關營養午餐這部分那我再用一點點時間我談一下昨天這一個在台中發生一個事情就是一個台中的一個小學的一個棒球教練那他被查出來就是說他被檢方都起訴了嘛他這個罪行是非常的重大七年的期間對41名學童下手犯案的次數高達90次檢察官說這個要請法院從重量刑"},{"start":19571.781,"end":19593.835,"text":"那這個已經是最後的結果 我就想說 過程 前面的這個原因就是說這其實這個松信教練 他已經有這個前科了 他也被判緩刑了但是呢 他持良民證進入學校擔任教練我請問一下 這個我們的機制出了問題還是台中市政府教育局這個學校出了問題"},{"start":19594.895,"end":19615.911,"text":"報告委員,我想這個機制我們前一陣子有去做,透過國道署跟地方有做一個補強,就是說他們學校人員會輪動,所以承辦人員常常忘記要去做不適任教室的查詢,那我們現在要求他們每個學校在聘外聘教練的時候都要去做合約的簽訂,教練本身要願意給各自,然後學校這邊也提醒這個承辦人員一定要去做不適任教室的查詢,把這個洞補起來。"},{"start":19617.159,"end":19645.019,"text":"所以是現在是發生是這個學校他們沒有去做查詢那如果他們有查詢的話是查得到嗎是查得到不一定不一定喔我們這個這個個案是查得到的吧這個個案是查得到那什麼情況下會查不到報告委員那個就是在應該說過去啦社團的部分在不是學校的編制內或者是計劃前教練的部分的確有這樣的漏洞那目前已經開始跟補起來了"},{"start":19645.299,"end":19667.191,"text":"有補起來了嗎?我們跟國道署這邊目前正在做討論署長這邊已經跟我做一個討論所以我這樣聽是還沒有補起來就對了就是說它是屬於因為學校都有課後的社團課後社團這一部分因為它不一定是老師可是他們是進來學校教課所以它有可能它沒有在這個記錄裡面通報的這個記錄裡面就對了"},{"start":19673.789,"end":19692.898,"text":"對如果說你要進入校園大概都會去取得良民證嘛那良民證裡面就會有他有沒有前科這是最基本的這有確定嗎對對對他就會去查那查的話當然我們就把它放在那個系統裡面去查如果是確定沒有的話那就沒有如果有的話那沒有被查出來那當然就是這個過程就會有問題但是剛剛這個署長他所提到的說有關於"},{"start":19695.959,"end":19706.799,"text":"有關於這部分就是說他是課後社團的這些老師要不要我看這個國教署長跟這個體育署長在這種類很多要不要一個比較完整性的一個回答"},{"start":19708.757,"end":19732.225,"text":"性平的案件只要進入校園教任何的外聘教練不管是屬於什麼性質的他只要犯到類似性平的案件都會進入?都會有嗎?確定嗎?這要確定喔?那我在講就是說現在還是說那個學校的一個棒球隊還有另外一個教練他也涉及到這個性平的案件"},{"start":19732.825,"end":19741.456,"text":"但是呢他說這個沒有達到不得聘任外聘教練的必要程度那所以呢這是去年十二月底我不確定說現在的資料怎麼樣那後來咧"},{"start":19746.547,"end":19760.858,"text":"後來他還有在其他學校繼續擔任教練嗎我想你關心是我們會把這個資料再給委員是 這個時間關係那我想請部外官員用書面方式來回覆這不能讓這個已經有這個這個性評案件的這一個教練再繼續再擔任教練啊這個洞你們要補起來啊"},{"start":19763.76,"end":19776.91,"text":"我們會跟地方政府好好研商好謝謝好謝謝市長好謝謝主席李坤城委員質詢李坤城委員質詢好官員請回座謝謝那我們接下來繼續質詢請陳培宇委員質詢"},{"start":19787.625,"end":19813.371,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請次長 次長辛苦了 午安好 請次長被質詢 謝謝我時間還沒有 等一下 因為同一天還沒出來好了嗎 好 不好意思 主席我可以問一下 這個電視是壞掉了嗎時間可以暫停嗎 等一下時間請暫停我們看一下那個 那邊的螢幕是不是是可以運作 還是可能有按到開關麻煩請醫事人員協助"},{"start":19818.012,"end":19822.654,"text":"好 那次長要不要喝口水 好了 好了 好了剛剛是把我們關掉嗎 好又沒了 我的鴨皮都沒了需要阿宅來幫忙嗎 也是不用啦一個螢幕讓這個柯總召都要出馬了這個螢幕要乖一點"},{"start":19848.714,"end":19852.576,"text":"這個可能螢幕比較 這看到柯總召來 他比較這個比較那個 儀式尊重謝謝總召 好 我們今天就詢答結束了時間繼續謝謝次長 這個先往下好了體育班這題我們繼續討論"},{"start":19866.343,"end":19893.659,"text":"好 來 次長營養午餐今天已經很多委員講了過去大概有74億是由中央補助地方我們今天早上一路聽下來次長我有一個建議啦才化法這麼辛苦對不對剛剛看起來確實是一個困境要不要乾脆如果地方政府難以溝通導致摯愛難行可是修法沒有辦法完成的任務又必須要教育部承擔我們要不要乾脆攤開來中央政府跟地方政府你攤開來給家長看"},{"start":19895.4,"end":19923.35,"text":"讓家長知道我們到底要找誰問以下我要問的十個問題因為過去以來專法從我上任第一天我就講到現在已經過去兩年了但是我在研究的那個過程當中我才發現確實有非常多議題它不僅只是食安的問題也不是只有費用的問題也不是只有人員的問題不是只有法規的問題也不是只有地區跟偏鄉差異的問題有非常非常多問題但聽下來次長你認不認同如果"},{"start":19924.15,"end":19939.925,"text":"在後續的跟地方政府的溝通上確實遇到困難你這樣不贊成乾脆就攤開來講給家長聽例如說以前的食材我們補助這麼多人力的部分我們補助這麼多那未來地方政府要不要把這些事情帶回去地方政府做還是他們又繼續丟包給你們"},{"start":19941.963,"end":19968.18,"text":"其實這個我們都希望不要發生這個狀況啦就是說能夠維持現在有的這個但是現實上是不可能的因為才會把上路之後好 我們一個一個來看所以我認為啦 攤開來問我們就來一題一題看我們從去年的10問到現在11問到底專法所適用的範圍因為我跟次長報告很多家長連他自己的小孩念的學校到底是歸中央管轄還是歸地方管轄"},{"start":19969.2,"end":19977.463,"text":"他都搞不清楚你知道嗎不要說高中啦有的家長連小學國中到底歸誰管他都不一定搞得清楚可是我不認為這是家長的問題因為家長有自己的書業有專攻嘛他不需要去搞清楚這個法規可是他只問他的孩子的營養午餐歸誰管我就光是這一題我們好好跟家長解釋對不對好來再來"},{"start":19988.787,"end":20008.652,"text":"適用的範圍在跨縣市一定會有互踢皮球的地方接下來才化法大家都把錢拿走了但是大家都不認領事情來做台北新北基隆北北基這是一個一日生活圈的概念大家如何分工還有跨部會之間的分工跟食材有關跟衛生有關跟教育工作有關那這些部會怎麼合作"},{"start":20009.172,"end":20026.843,"text":"所以而且這些部會跟地方上在溝通的管道又不一樣經驗也不一樣對不對這個是不是也適合來談一下中央跟地方的分工你看到目前兩題了對不對次長來第三題專法的規範有沒有涵蓋所有的公餐模式我的小孩住的我們住的那個"},{"start":20027.583,"end":20045.829,"text":"那一條路上可能五間學校就有五種公餐模式有公辦公營、公辦民營、民辦民營、他校公營包含蘇院長上任之後提供的中央廚房模式變得更複雜了那未來才化法通過已經通過了啦那地方怎麼談這件事情那甚至我還有擔心的問題所以次長這題我們這邊也要跟家長講對不對好再來"},{"start":20051.98,"end":20077.793,"text":"未來我們在談草案或者是後續財政規劃的時候中央地方學校要不要設置所謂的委員會要不要有多元的聲音而如果相關權責跟經費都到了地方政府去他們願不願意在這個概念上採納多元的聲音這個議題我知道次長您是認同的之前您在擔任立法委員的時候您也非常認同但我們都不確定到了地方他們會不會乖乖把該找來的人找來開會聽多元的聲音我們並不知道好下一張"},{"start":20079.614,"end":20095.031,"text":"營養師除工人數的比例如何協助學校營養師聘組還有除工還有營養午餐如果是外定統餐學校的營養師跟團上的營養師如何分工也就是說每次出現食安事件的時候大家就會追究除工的問題還是營養師的問題到底是外定廠商的問題還是學校的問題一樣我認為"},{"start":20101.097,"end":20117.184,"text":"攤開來跟大家講清楚不是只有你的責任次長我覺得地方政府現在所有地方政府都要加緊腳步共同來承擔跟面對這個問題雖然我問的此時此刻我是在問教育部但我更要問的是所有地方政府準備把錢拿回去之後要不要面對這些問題好 接下來"},{"start":20118.985,"end":20137.637,"text":"學校五蜜目前都是兼任老師很辛苦已經很多地方老師哀鴻遍野了抓交替這個現象如何解決到了地方政府這些縣市首長會不會更加壓迫我們地方老師對不對 次長所以這個部分也要講出來武蔡秘書承擔了非常多大量的業務這些事情必須要拿出來講好 再來"},{"start":20138.858,"end":20155.795,"text":"還有偏鄉我更擔心的是偏鄉的營養午餐業務偏鄉人力難尋相關食材的送達還有老師身兼多職這件事情也會影響而且那個影響的層面更加複雜跟多元一樣偏鄉的縣市政府要不要跟您教育部坐下來好好溝通來下一張"},{"start":20156.716,"end":20174.401,"text":"如何確保學生的營養攝取跟健康基準之前蘇院長之所以會成立中央廚房就是發現很多偏鄉的小孩營養午餐看起來有夠淒慘有夠可憐相較於同一天的照片如果我們看台北市六都小孩感覺不是同一國的小孩所以我們成立了中央廚房未來這件事情怎麼辦還有食材採買會不會是問題"},{"start":20177.282,"end":20202.69,"text":"食材採買當然是問題有非常多細節在裡頭我們說細節魔鬼藏在細節裡面好下一張第九張如果食物中毒誰來處理誰來管第十張食農教育法國民營養及健康飲食促進法還有未來假設營養午餐法通過之後學校的營養教育如何進行當然我們有基本的概念是有教育部來訂定但是地方縣市政府要不要督促他們學校努力去辦第十一張我就問次長"},{"start":20204.4,"end":20231.732,"text":"您來自地方的立法委員很多人在選舉的時候 我不是說你啦我說很多縣市首長在選舉的時候就開支票說吃飯不用錢 吃菜不用錢 聯絡部不用錢小金座也不用錢 我在講婦孕期都不用錢的時候 營養午餐的品質會逐年下降甚至是逐日下降最近這兩天 日本就有一個新聞日本有非常多縣市都提供免費營養午餐結果家長愛哄騙也因為品質下降 小孩根本吃不飽結果拿出更多的錢去買零食"},{"start":20232.572,"end":20256.738,"text":"所以這個困境真的很大所以市長我建議啦如果都搞不定不要我們自己背鍋攤開來跟家長講到底是中央該承擔還是地方該承擔好 市長可不可以簡單回應一下謝謝委員的指教我們就朝這個方向好啦 我們就公開講給家長聽好不好 謝謝好 謝謝市長 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳佩玉委員質詢官員請回座市長以及官員都辛苦了 謝謝好"},{"start":20264.98,"end":20287.38,"text":"請羅明財委員質詢羅明財委員羅明財委員不在請王宏威委員質詢王宏威委員王宏威委員不在請邱志偉委員質詢邱志偉委員邱志偉委員不在請鄭振前委員質詢鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在請徐宇珍委員質詢徐宇珍委員徐宇珍委員不在"},{"start":20288.481,"end":20307.415,"text":"請徐欣盈委員質詢徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在好那我想今天謝謝辛苦了登記質詢委員均已發言完畢另有徐宇珍委員提出書面質詢那關於今天會議做如下決議報告及詢答完畢"},{"start":20308.456,"end":20308.496,"text":"謝謝大家 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中華民國114年3月13日星期四 九十二分至十二時二十七分地點 泉前樓九樓大禮堂 出席委員 賴會員委員等十四人 列席委員 楊瓊玉委員等十五人 列席官員 中央銀行總裁楊金榮 紀相任人員等 主席賴召集委員"},{"start":1787.276,"end":1807.348,"text":"事保 報告事項一 宣讀上次會議議事錄決定 議事錄確定二 邀請中央銀行楊總裁金榮率所屬單位主管暨財經資訊股份有限公司董事長列協議報告並被質詢金中央銀行總裁楊金榮提出報告後 暨有委員林德福等16人提出質詢 均金中央銀行總裁"},{"start":1808.448,"end":1832.062,"text":"財經資訊公司林董事長及相關人員已以答覆決定一 報告及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆部分請補充資訊請中央銀行一周內以書面答覆委員力要求期限者從其所定三 委員陳亂亭李博義所提書面質詢及委員王世堅所提書面補充資料均列入記錄刊登公報並請中央銀行以書面答覆散會宣讀完畢"},{"start":1834.886,"end":1856.499,"text":"好 謝謝議事論文我們暫時不確定因為在場的委員未達到法定的人數請議事人員先讀今日的議程那我首先先介紹在現場的吳秉瑞委員好 那先讀今日的議程"},{"start":1860.067,"end":1888.106,"text":"報告事項二 邀請財政部莊部長崔雲率所屬機關所長及國營事業董事長總經理含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董監事列席業務報告並被質詢討論事項一 審查行政案函請審議海關鏡頭碎折部分碎折修正草案案二 匯總整理提出中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及非營業部分審查總報告草案提報院會案宣讀完畢"},{"start":1890.397,"end":1913.744,"text":"好 謝謝接著我先介紹議會的政府官員那首先我們先介紹財政部莊翠銀莊部長中和規劃司理事長國際財政司理事長推動出產司張素貞張司長人事處張芳琪張處長"},{"start":1920.506,"end":1931.23,"text":"會計處 魯處長統計處 蔡處長政文處 許處長法治處 姚處長秘書處 楊處長國庫署 陳柏成署長戶稅署 宋署長官務署 彭署長國有財產署 曾署長"},{"start":1950.161,"end":1975.71,"text":"財政資訊中心張主任財政人員信念所許所長台北國稅局吳局長高雄國稅局翁局長北區國稅局李局長中區樓局長南區我們的李局長接著介紹台灣金融控股股份有限公司我們的林董事長"},{"start":1977.355,"end":2005.385,"text":"林宗彥董事長還有司馬立總經理台銀我們接著介紹吳嘉祥總經理謝謝還有台銀人壽張志宏董事長還有台銀人壽劉啟勝總經理台銀綜合證券李素森董事長張振康總經理"},{"start":2007.486,"end":2033.718,"text":"台銀綜合保險經紀人股份有限公司代理董事長戴思妍董事長台灣土地銀行股份有限公司何一鳴董事長還有我們的張智堅總經理那兆豐金礦我們的董瑞兵董事長蕭義美總經理"},{"start":2037.148,"end":2060.155,"text":"招風國際商業銀行黃永禎總經理第一金控邱業勤董事長方迎基總經理第一商業銀行李嘉祥總經理華南金控陳芬蘭董事長李耀清總經理"},{"start":2064.499,"end":2089.911,"text":"華蘭商業銀行我們的黃俊智總經理合作金庫我們的金控董事長林顏茂董事長蘇佐正總經理合作金庫銀行王淑芳總經理彰化銀行胡光華董事長周朝崇總經理"},{"start":2092.827,"end":2113.732,"text":"台灣中小企業銀行代理董事長李國中董事長中國輸出入銀行理事主席戴主席我們的謝富華總經理台灣燕酒股份有限公司董事長湯祈安董事長總經理賴煥中總經理財政部印刷廠王國隆廠長"},{"start":2122.066,"end":2147.066,"text":"貿易網路股份有限公司張璐生董事長高國鋒總經理中央再保險股份有限公司董事李一芬台灣今年我們的龔文萍董事長台灣金融融資股份有限公司陳美如董事長"},{"start":2149.96,"end":2168.852,"text":"台北金融大樓股份有限公司 賈永傑董事長台灣金融聯合都市更新服務股份有限公司我們的代理董事長 劉董事長經濟部國貿署我們的副組長 蘇志鴻謝謝產花發展署我們的副組長 陳全正農業部國際事務司 副司長 洪曉軍"},{"start":2181.175,"end":2188.965,"text":"法務部法制司副司長那個會慢一點到我們先由那個代表在現場參與好 謝謝"},{"start":2195.029,"end":2222.472,"text":"接著我們今日的議程的安排一我們邀請財政部莊部長翠穎進行業務報告二審查行政院行情審議海關進口稅及部分稅責修正草案三會籍總理整整理出中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及輝營業的部分審查總報告草案提報宴會案"},{"start":2223.653,"end":2250.645,"text":"首先進行中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及非營業的部分審查總報告草案提報宴會案現在請議事人員先讀審查總報告案內容好那個接著介紹一下在場的那個議員就是陳奕正議員"},{"start":2253.589,"end":2272.172,"text":"陳一貞委員還有洪德虎委員林德虎不好意思連兩錯請問對上一次的議事錄有沒有異議沒有好 謝謝好 議事錄確定"},{"start":2282.725,"end":2301.253,"text":"那現在請先讀先讀中華民國114年中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及非營業部分審查總報告草案因應審查經過及總結過本案由財政委員會與各委員會依照中華民國114年中央政府總預算案含附屬單位預算及中計表營業及非營業部分"},{"start":2301.893,"end":2320.992,"text":"審查分配表及審查日程自113年11月11日起分別舉行會議審查行政院所送出華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及非營業部分為截至114年3月17日上游外交及國防委員會社會福利及衛生環境委員會上位將審查報告送達"},{"start":2321.773,"end":2337.185,"text":"自衛及會診列入本次審查總報告中其均與提出之審查報告由財政委員會會總整理於114年3月20日舉行全體會議討論後完成審查總報告之將各委員會審查結果分別詳列於後"},{"start":2338.266,"end":2348.169,"text":"提請討論並概要說明如下一營業部分從韓國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單案預算及中繼表營業部分原列營業總收入3,5507億7,998萬8千元營業總支出3,325億5,328萬7千元"},{"start":2356.151,"end":2358.233,"text":"稅後淨利2,252億2,670萬1千元審查結果增列營業總收入6億7,400萬元減列營業總支出發所得稅費用65億4,250萬元增列稅前淨利72億1,650萬元"},{"start":2372.722,"end":2388.552,"text":"強烈表三至於所得稅費用及盈虧撥補事項是院會審議確定後再由行政院依法核算及分配各單位有關之業務計畫轉投資重大建設資金運用及資產負債預計等部分應分別依本案審定數額予以調整"},{"start":2389.552,"end":2397.036,"text":"非營業部分 作為基金 原列業務總收入2兆4,329億4,145萬7千元業務總支出2兆3,729億9,314萬7千元本期剩餘599億4,831萬元審查結果 應外交及國防委員會 社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":2409.562,"end":2435.553,"text":"負責審查部分企業114年3月17日上位將審查報告送財政委員會智慧及業務審查總報告員其餘審查結果增列業務總收入2億0727000元減列業務總支出4670萬元增列本期剩餘2億4742萬7000元享表四五至於促撥補部分市院會審議確定後再由行政院依法核算及分配各單位有關這業務計畫"},{"start":2438.59,"end":2448.817,"text":"轉投資固定資產建設改良擴充國庫增撥基金額及資金運用等部分應分別依本案審定數額予以調整二 債務基金連列基金來源9129億6726萬5千元基金用途9129"},{"start":2456.262,"end":2468.475,"text":"6,525萬1千元其餘剩餘201萬4千元審查結果簡略基金來源10億零5百萬簡略基金用途10億零5百萬 想表63 特別收入基金 原列基金來源3,480億4,331萬3千元基金用途3,338億"},{"start":2475.282,"end":2494.751,"text":"716萬9千元本期剩餘141億4614萬4千元審查結果因社會福利及衛生環境委員會負責審查部分其114年3月17日尚未將審查報告送達自衛及業務審查總報告原期審查結果增列基金來源2億1740萬8千元減劣基金用途3700萬元增列本期剩餘2億5440萬8千元"},{"start":2501.914,"end":2513.418,"text":"至於各單位之業務計劃及資金運用等部分因分別依本案審定數額予以調整資本計劃基金原力基金來源147億4735萬5千元基金用途393億0126萬3千元本期短處245億5390萬8千元因外交及國防委員會714年3月17日尚未提出審查報告原尚無審查結果 想表6"},{"start":2528.265,"end":2534.996,"text":"3.信託基金部分 中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案 附屬單案預算及中計表非營業部分信託基金向下"},{"start":2536.417,"end":2552.74,"text":"既有勞工退休基金救治勞工退休基金新制基線工資電廠基金資源回收管理基金信託基金部分保險業務發展基金及公務員退休輔助基金等17個基金共編列總收入2424億0859萬1千元總支出131億091萬9千元本期剩餘2293億767萬2千元審查結果因外交及國防委員會社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":2566.623,"end":2583.074,"text":"財政委員會負責審查支部份支信託基金部份7.114年3月17日上位將審查報告送達支位及列入審查總報告原期與審查結果均照列想表期2.勤委員自行參閱部份1.審查總說明第1至20頁2.營業部份經濟委員會第21至115頁財政委員會第117至115頁"},{"start":2591.98,"end":2598.142,"text":"交通委員會第183至228頁非營業部分內政委員會第229至258頁經濟委員會第261至342頁財政委員會第343至347頁教育及文化委員會第349至418頁交通委員會第419至508頁司法及法制委員會第509至511頁信託基金部分內政委員會第516"},{"start":2621.271,"end":2624.597,"text":"第515至516頁經濟委員會第519至520頁財政委員會第521頁司法及法治委員會第523至524頁宣讀完畢"},{"start":2636.504,"end":2658.734,"text":"好 謝謝 請問各位委員對附屬單位預算營業及輝營業部分的一個審查總報告草案有沒有意義好 沒有意義 我們通過針對附屬單位預算營業跟輝營業部分審查總報告的草案做如下的一個決議一 中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":2661.015,"end":2688.335,"text":"營業及非營業部分的審查總報告照草案通過提報宴會討論須黨團協商請議事人員儘速提報宴會討論二有關外交國防委員會社會福利及衛生環境委員會非營業的部分的審查報告我們等到本委員會到達送達本委員會後請議事人員會總整理並進行提報宴會併案討論"},{"start":2691.087,"end":2700.316,"text":"那請問各位委員有沒有異議沒有異議那就通過我們現在請財政部莊部長進行業務報告及說明提案的內容"},{"start":2707.742,"end":2726.649,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家早今天貴委員會召開全體委員會議本人應邀率本部主管同仁列席提出業務報告以下僅就113年度中央政府總預算收入的編列還有執行情形以及近半年重要的施政績效和未來的施政方向"},{"start":2727.39,"end":2734.978,"text":"與重點提出報告首先就是有關中央政府總預算113年度的執行情形在稅務方面我們的實收數是3兆1347億達成預算數的115%其中稅客收入實收數2兆6898億"},{"start":2744.429,"end":2759.043,"text":"达成预算数的116.2%在营业盈余以及事业收入实收数2765亿元达成率是96%至于规费罚赔款财产以及其他收入实收数是1694亿元达成率是136.3%"},{"start":2763.487,"end":2769.768,"text":"在融資性裁員方面我們的債務舉借的預算數是1571億但是因為稅務執行優於預期全數都沒有舉借而債務還本的預算數1150億元以全數執行還債完畢同時因為我們的稅務執行優於預期所以我們增加還本208億合計還本1358億"},{"start":2789.292,"end":2816.73,"text":"接下來報告本部近半年的重要施政的績效陳蒙貴委員會的協助上個會期我們順利完成了貨物稅條例的第十二條證券交易稅條例的第二條之二及第十二條條文等多項法案的修正並且持續的加強貸貨管理落實清安貸款的政策目的致力維護邊境的安全增進國有財產活化及積極推動行政院的兆元投資國家發展方案等多項業務"},{"start":2818.806,"end":2846.795,"text":"相關資料請參閱書面報告的第二頁到第17頁接下來報告未來我們的施政方向以及重點首先在國庫業務部分將會依循相關規定管控稅入稅出的差短落實債務管理維持財政的穩健並且透過考核輔導經驗分享等等方式來協助地方政府增進財政效能以及按月監管債務的債務的情形敦促改善債務的狀況"},{"start":2848.355,"end":2867.732,"text":"在发行乙类公债的部分除了持续推动非营业特种基金至长性资金的需求我们透由乙类公债来筹资之外另外我会透过兆元投资国家翻转方案里面协力推动中央各部会以及地方政府来规划发行具有至长性的永续发展公债"},{"start":2868.453,"end":2887.75,"text":"在因應財政收支劃分的調整方面財化法的修正案經會同主計總署逐條審視不論在垂直分配或水平分配部分有治案難行之處經提報行政院院會通過呈請總統核可以請大院附議事經大院在114年3月12日作成決議維持原案"},{"start":2889.111,"end":2901.044,"text":"後續將會配合行政院的政策來辦理那付稅業務部分為了兼顧地方政府的發展需要維持地方財政的自主修正娛樂稅法為了落實納稅者權利保護法的意旨我們會修正營業稅法以營造健全的稅制環境"},{"start":2907.051,"end":2930.883,"text":"另外为了达到节能减碳绿色消费的政策目标将会配合修正货物税条例在推动友善纳税服务方面规划今年5月会提供使用税额试算通知书电子档的纳税人他可以有更便捷快速的中锁税网络报税流程服务那么在10月也会新增娱乐税线上查缴的税款的服务"},{"start":2932.401,"end":2941.644,"text":"為了增進國際財政合作會持續推動與經貿投資往來密切的國家來洽簽租稅協定消除跨境所得稅雙重課稅的問題並推動與協定夥伴國稅務用途資訊自動交換的合作來提升租稅的透明度"},{"start":2950.286,"end":2972.013,"text":"以及透过参与国际组织来提升我们国际的能见度在关物业务部分会配合我国和巴拉圭经济合作协定的关税减让承诺研修海关进口税则并且以数位海关再造计划来改造我们通关系统服务架构以及建制相关的系统推动关物数位创新"},{"start":2972.833,"end":2986.758,"text":"另外會持續執行海關巡氣艇太舊換新的第二期以及各項儀檢站固定式貨櫃檢查儀的建置計畫並且配合桃園機場第三航廈的興建進度建置相關的儀檢設備強化我們邊境的查緝效能"},{"start":2990.74,"end":3005.72,"text":"在推動洽簽官務協定方面我們會致力推動和經貿關係密切國家來洽簽官務互助協定等等來促進跨境貿易安全以及便捷營造經貿有利的環境在國產業務方面"},{"start":3007.142,"end":3017.472,"text":"督促機關來活化運用國有公用財產強化資產管理的量能積極推動以多元方式活化國有非公用財產帶動相關的產業以及公共建設的發展爭域政府的財政"},{"start":3023.143,"end":3041.089,"text":"促进促餐业务部分以兆元投资国家发展方案的创新促餐推进机制的策略来扩增民间投资公共建设的案源引导民间资金投入国家建设并且落实原有推进的机制提升促餐的推动能量"},{"start":3041.829,"end":3055.301,"text":"以上財政工作的重點報告陳蒙貴委員會協助以及督導使財政業務能夠順利的推展並有相關的成效面對快速政經情勢的變化會遵循財政紀律厚植財政量能作為經濟成長的後盾加速產業以及國家建設的發展打造創新繁榮的台灣"},{"start":3063.649,"end":3075.3,"text":"敬請各位委員繼續支持以及指教使財政工作更增完善謝謝大家接下來為各位報告有關海關進口部分稅責的修正草案"},{"start":3077.179,"end":3083.161,"text":"我們台灣和巴拉圭的經濟合作協定在106年7月12日簽署那從107年2月28日生效實施為了擴大台巴經濟合作協定的效益雙方陸續的召開台巴經濟合作協定聯合委員會議"},{"start":3094.225,"end":3113.576,"text":"並且簽署決議文根據摘項協定以及決議文我方的關稅減讓清單已經配合修正條件原產自巴拉圭計有112項的貨品關稅稅率在107年到111年間生效施行那這一次的修正是因為113年的3月21日我們以視訊會議的方式召開了第四屆台巴經濟合作協定聯合委員會的會議"},{"start":3121.02,"end":3141.145,"text":"雙方分別在113年的8月2日以及8月27日以異地換文的方式完成簽署第八次的決議文這項決議文涉及到我方的關稅減讓承諾配合修正八國適用的第二欄稅率所以我們就拟據了海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案"},{"start":3141.705,"end":3160.743,"text":"根據台巴經濟合作協定的第8號決議文的關稅減讓清單原產自巴國的去骨豬肉等等17項貨品關稅稅率調降至免稅米果等貨品調降到10%天然蜜等分顏逐步調降到20%所以我們修正18項巴國適用的"},{"start":3163.125,"end":3191.432,"text":"關稅的稅率在我國與八國彼此通知完成必要的內部法律程序後會在30日內生效友邦八國主要經濟產業是以農產品為主這一次的修法調降了八國19項貨品的關稅稅率促進雙邊經貿交流及合作的商機推升我國和巴拉圭的經貿關係有助穩固邦交友誼以上報告敬請各位委員指教並且支持謝謝"},{"start":3193.72,"end":3219.053,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝部長那針對的本日議程現在開始詢答先做以下的宣告每位出席的委員我們花言的時間是8分鐘必要的時候得延長2分鐘每位列席的委員花言的時間是5分鐘那我們就不再延長了今天早上10點開始截止花言的登記那本次會議委員若有相關的修正動議請10點"},{"start":3221.834,"end":3241.213,"text":"10點以前送到主席台那現在我們依登記的順序請登記第一位林德虎委員質詢謝謝主席是不是請財政部莊部長好 請莊部長"},{"start":3249.761,"end":3274.275,"text":"委員長部長早部長我請教因為稅收超徵創新高那兩個禮拜前對於本黨主張全民普發現金一萬元那本席也在總質詢的時候建議行政院提出對岸送立法院來討論卓院長當時也表示會朝這個方向來走"},{"start":3275.616,"end":3296.963,"text":"但是根據上個禮拜一 財委會舉辦的稅收超徵 還稅移民的公聽會財政部提出三大理由 反對的事態演進請問部長 財政部是不是吃了襯托 鐵了心 不甩卓院長的看法"},{"start":3298.663,"end":3309.092,"text":"跟委員報告首先對於我們的稅客收入優於預期那我們第一個當然是要減少舉債然後增加還債剩下的會到稅計剩餘去那如果在維持我們的財政的量能而且能夠保有財政韌性我們有餘的這個稅計剩餘要怎麼樣的運用那委員那一天在總諮詢也有提到您有相關的草案提案"},{"start":3323.163,"end":3347.965,"text":"那也認為說行政院可以提出相關的對談但是你們沒有提出來啊對那這個部分呢至於怎麼樣的運用那一天院長也說了會再考量而且會研議那我想這部分的運用行政院也在考量但是他是說朝這個方向去走朝這個方向第一個就是我們要考量國家長遠的一個發展第二個就是說第一個我們國家真正的需要施政的優先順序譬如說"},{"start":3349.126,"end":3368.631,"text":"增強國防的自主能力或照顧民生照顧弱勢等等各種措施可以來做考量那今年國防各方面也都有增加預算啊對那這個部分我想這個部分行政院會就國家整體的一個發展來看這個財政要怎麼樣的做合理有效的運用還是那個莊部長是"},{"start":3369.051,"end":3392.488,"text":"你跟卓院長是不是扮演黑白臉啊在國會殿堂對全民打假球啊會不會這種狀況沒有這樣的一個情況沒有沒有這個情況而且有關相關的稅計剩餘也就是說稅收超過預期跟財政有剩餘這個是兩件事應該要等到決算以後才真正能夠算出這樣一個數據來那至於怎麼樣的運用我覺得會從國家整體發展來再考量"},{"start":3395.93,"end":3422.325,"text":"好 那我請教你對於在野黨提出普發現金財政部有三大理由來反對甚至於把普發現金貼上環稅漁民常態化的標籤那本席有幾點疑問我來請教部長112年為了普發現金財政部當時的主張與全民共享過去經濟發展的成果整體所需的經費將以稅計勝於支應"},{"start":3425.68,"end":3442.834,"text":"不會增加舉借債務甚至於還進一步來表示財政部配合國家發展的需要妥適應用財政政策來維繫整個經濟的穩定成長"},{"start":3445.516,"end":3471.21,"text":"並利用經濟成長來帶動稅收的增長適時來增加還債所以普發現金有理那我請問部長為何114年的今天明明超增稅收比111年還要多那在野黨提出普發現金就變成破壞財政紀律就變成舉債發現金的餘率"},{"start":3474.992,"end":3487.057,"text":"進一步來說難道112年113年政府舉債過多沒有積極來還債所以才反對普發現金你的看法呢"},{"start":3488.514,"end":3512.922,"text":"跟委員說明第一個113年的稅客收入就屬於中央的部分並沒有比111年來的高111年屬於中央部分是4,002億但是在113年屬於中央的是3,757億所以沒有比111年高第二個普發現金不宜常態化這個部分是我們一直主張的也就是說"},{"start":3514.442,"end":3537.336,"text":"這個普發現金當時有它的社會背景也就112年的時候我們行政院訂定了一個疫後強化經濟跟社會韌性全民共享經濟成果成果的特別條例在裡面有普發現金每人6000元那個時候第一個是因為經過疫情那在疫情期間呢因為台灣的防疫工作做得非常的好所以我們的製造業沒有停工整個經濟發展經濟的成果非常的亮眼那第二"},{"start":3542.659,"end":3560.403,"text":"另外呢有一些產業事實上也有受到疫情的衝擊所以這個部分應該要強化整個經濟跟社會的韌性所以把經濟成長的果實也和全民來共享我想那個當時有這樣的一個背景部長著是心扉啦金扉財政部對普發現金的立場會不會讓人產生這種這個著是金扉的這種錯覺會不會"},{"start":3568.287,"end":3593.045,"text":"不會喔不會因為我們一直認為說這個稅款超過預期是因為經濟成長以及去年來說是股市熱絡那這些這個超過預期這個稅款在相關的法制裡面不管預算法或公共債務法都有已經有明確的規定都有明確規定那至於普發現金這個部分112年有當時他的一個政策他112年是不是1213舉債過多是不是這個樣子嗎"},{"start":3597.208,"end":3624.167,"text":"沒有舉債過多我們積極的還債其實我們的債務比例已經一直在下降已經到但是過去一兆八千多億才還多少而已到113年是25.8的債務比例遠跟40.6是差距很大的那個部長反對還稅移民常態化請問部長對於常態化的先決條件是不是要在超增稅收的條件下才有可能是不是"},{"start":3624.847,"end":3629.831,"text":"如果監察院在110年的調查報告指出來特別預算有常態化的現象並提到特別預算有胡編破壞整個預算體制的事情"},{"start":3643.7,"end":3655.553,"text":"那請問部長行政院的特別預算有常態化的餘率難道就不會有破壞財政紀律長期影響整個政府債務的餘率嗎難道這個就不會嗎"},{"start":3659.237,"end":3684.373,"text":"一個總預算和特別預算它兩者是相輔相成那預算法裡面也有規定因應國家的一個重大特殊的事故或推動了重大的政事可以編列特別預算那這個特別預算呢它是一個長期一個比較多年期的一個是分年來做而且它的舉債都要跟總預算一樣舉債都要納入該縣的管制它不會去突破這個債務的控管"},{"start":3684.713,"end":3705.444,"text":"像那個特別預算新竹那個棒球場原來只2億最後又撥了10億的特別預算給他這個是應該的嗎對不對部長去年本席曾經問你啦美國總統川普今年1月上任後可能將推動高關稅境內減稅等政策新"},{"start":3706.545,"end":3720.32,"text":"新政成真之後財政部要如何面對市場波動與負面的影響當時你說未來各項稅務政策何時會落實實施強度又如何"},{"start":3722.302,"end":3739.295,"text":"對應相關國家為何財政部都會密切的觀察那我請問部長川普上任到今天剛好兩個月從財政主管業務的內容來說你認為有哪些層面受影響哪些層面影響最大"},{"start":3741.348,"end":3757,"text":"委員報告那川普上任以後有一些相關的關稅措施比如說對等關稅對等關稅到目前為止其實也沒有相關的具體實施的內容但是呢政府部門行政部門並不會鬆懈我們持續的在關注他所發布的相關的關稅的一些"},{"start":3761.644,"end":3779.184,"text":"政策也好或者是說相關的一些記錄也好而我們會研擬相關的一些方案同時財政部內部也會去盤點有關從美國進口也好或者是我們出口到美國的相關的貨品以及我們的關稅稅率跟美方的關稅稅率是如何我們這個部分都已經清點了"},{"start":3781.311,"end":3793.47,"text":"部長 從台美租稅協定洽簽的時程來看你認為減少雙重課稅對台的對等性 公平性會不會因為川普的美國優先的論調而產生變化 會不會"},{"start":3797.062,"end":3813.114,"text":"跟委員報告這一屆的美國的國會新就任以後他的眾議院所通過的台美ADTA的兩項法案跟之前在上一屆國會的內容是完全一致那這個完全一致的內容在1月15號已經經過眾院的通過了目前要經過參院的一個審議那參院如果過了以後過了以後那就會跟就要經過總統簽署以後我們雙方在簽國際的文書在簽雙方文書的時候一定是"},{"start":3826.343,"end":3847.192,"text":"本於互惠平等的原則來做簽署部長雖然部長你說這個租稅協定是雙方有利的不管是台灣供應鏈到美國或美國到台灣的投資都有助避免被雙重課稅但是以川普目前的態度請問部長你對租稅協定洽簽的看法你認為還樂觀嗎"},{"start":3856.98,"end":3876.009,"text":"這個台美租稅協定呢不管是到我們赴美投資或來台灣投資的相關的個人跟企業都非常重視不管美台商會或台灣商會以及相關的工業總會都非常的重視然後他們也會運用各種場合去希望盡快推動這樣的一個法案通過那另外呢"},{"start":3878.07,"end":3897.283,"text":"美國兩黨的國會議員也都相當支持所以才會在1月15號的時候眾院就已經那麼快速的通過那目前參院也會有相關的提案那基本上內容都跟上一次一樣好我希望財政部在這方面要去多關注謝謝會的會的我們也跟美方一直在持續的做工作小組的討論好謝謝德國委員接著請吳秉瑞委員發言"},{"start":3913.857,"end":3936.008,"text":"主席麻煩請財政部莊部長我是覺得說有一些名詞的使用要正確不要有置換的概念第一個"},{"start":3937.182,"end":3957.112,"text":"我還再一次的提醒中華民國是租稅法定主義也就是說我們國家要收的每一筆稅金每一毛錢都是必須法律有規定對不對是的都是依法有據的法律有規定徵收你可不可以不徵收"},{"start":3958.591,"end":3968.121,"text":"當然不行所以沒有什麼叫超增嘛是是時收數比預算數多嘛"},{"start":3969.148,"end":3985.741,"text":"這才是正確的概念嗎所以我拜託你財政部所屬的單位以後不要用超徵這兩個字可不可以是的當然是不能用超徵我們每一塊錢每一毛錢都是依法克徵沒有所謂的超徵所以是時收數高於預算數第二個我反對還稅漁民的講法"},{"start":3990.823,"end":4001.725,"text":"無論過去或是未來有沒有要普發現金都不叫還稅於民啦還稅於民是要把錢還給繳稅的人那應該還稅於繳稅者才叫還稅於民嘛那我們是應該還最多應該是台積電台積電繳最多啊怎麼會是大家普發呢"},{"start":4015.99,"end":4040.523,"text":"那個零到小朋友還沒有繳稅還未成年普發現金的書他有沒有當然是有那他叫做還稅給他嗎不是啊所以不要再用還稅於民這四個字我也請財政部不要用還稅於民這四個字這是錯誤的概念這是一個誤導再來我要跟您講本院"},{"start":4043.296,"end":4058.464,"text":"審議預算我們有審議預算的權利但是我們沒有提出預算的權利所以憲法裡面明文規定立法委員在做預算審查的時候不可以以為增加預算是提案對不對就這樣"},{"start":4061.383,"end":4080.452,"text":"所以剛剛委員有講說你112年的時候有普發那為什麼現在就不可以就是你講的時空環境不一樣那誰來決定當然是行政權來決定其實預算跟人事是行政權的兩大核心"},{"start":4081.482,"end":4105.695,"text":"今天如果行政權考量台灣的經濟需要加速發展或是說我們的消費不振他無論是要發消費券無論是要發現金這都是行政機關的提案他必須先提一個特別條例到本院來審議經過本院審議特別條例通過之後才根據這個特別條例編列預算到本院來審議程序是不是這樣是的是的委員說的很適所以如果"},{"start":4110.353,"end":4129.388,"text":"立法機關脫法弄一個法律案其實他在搞預算然後來在我來看這都有非常重大的違憲嫌疑那當然他現在肆無忌憚因為大法官會議的憲法法庭已經人數不足"},{"start":4130.441,"end":4136.643,"text":"沒有辦法開庭啊現在也不知道誰來決定違憲啊所以這就亂了套啦 亂來啊我們本席在財政委會今年是第14年啦我們的舉債上限曾經高達38點多 將近上限40.6誰 馬政府時代"},{"start":4154.158,"end":4173.293,"text":"那當然因為我們的經濟總體成長一直在成長這幾年來財政狀況有變得比較好所以我們的舉債的那個比例佔GDP一直在下降現在只佔前三年這個GDP平均數的25.8%這是你剛講的當年的38點多那是差多少差了十幾個百分點"},{"start":4181.653,"end":4205.321,"text":"然後現在可以睜眼說瞎話說以前的財政狀況就很好現在財政狀況就很差先有立場在講話就先設見在畫靶我覺得這樣也不好就事論事所以我是覺得說你也很委屈因為我知道有一些民意代表很強勢你這邊如果你敢跟他回嘴說這有違憲之嫌恐怕他就不會放你乾休了但是我可以講"},{"start":4209.283,"end":4234.04,"text":"一樣大家都是委員我在看這就是違憲那至於該不該補發現金或是該不該發消費券其實歷屆政府都有馬政府時代也有蔡政府時代也有但是一個共同的特點都是行政機關行政權根據當時的社會需要去思考去研究之後來決定該不該發這才是正辦嘛"},{"start":4238.679,"end":4258.099,"text":"歷來都是這樣做嘛這就是我們台灣為什麼要有憲法的原因啊大家要照憲法走啊 不然就亂了套啦那再來 現在儀美論很多啊川普上任之後 他講的叫做對等關稅其實以我的觀點來看喔對等關稅反而對台灣有利啊"},{"start":4262.342,"end":4285.65,"text":"為什麼呢因為台灣以前被惡霸中華人民共和國打壓很多的國際之間的條約都沒辦法參加國際之間的關稅領域什麼RCEP或是說什麼東南亞關貿協定都不讓我們參加都是因為政治上的原因所以台灣的廠商才會在20年前20幾年前要"},{"start":4287.19,"end":4303.792,"text":"平民外移主要是移到中國去原因就是在這個地方他因為政治的因素打壓台灣的立場所以台灣這個國家的製造業他比較辛苦他常常他的關稅比跟他競爭的國家比起來是比較高的"},{"start":4304.827,"end":4309.891,"text":"那如果確實能夠落實對等關稅的話所謂對等關稅就是我們課美國多少關稅美國課我們多少關稅定義上是這樣那當然細節是要經過兩國之間的會商跟談判如果這樣子我們在關稅上就不會被競爭國家佔便宜"},{"start":4325.424,"end":4352.919,"text":"中國的鋼鋁美國不是要給他課關稅嗎說要課25%關稅嗎那一個禮拜中鋼應聲大漲奇怪了對他們課關稅為什麼中鋼會大漲原因是因為我們以前就是在繳25%的關稅啊那現在他把它拉到25%我們競爭地位就平等了嘛所以我們跟這個競爭的時候我們在外銷社競爭的時候就變成對台灣有利"},{"start":4354.065,"end":4380.218,"text":"所以有的人是先 反正我討厭川普啦我看他在支持台灣 他在對付中國 他很不爽他就找了一對一個理由 從中國那邊發動以美論然後利用各種的管道滲透到台灣來讓大家都知道 是不是美國對我們很不好美國有對我們不好嗎我們每一年給人家貿易順差700多億 去年"},{"start":4381.543,"end":4400.741,"text":"賺了人家兩兆五千億的台幣國際貿易在邏輯上在原理上是要追求平衡的如果有一個國家每一年賺你台灣六七百億的美金的外匯那今年累月台灣也會叫啊這樣顯不公平嘛"},{"start":4401.957,"end":4426.909,"text":"對不對所以我是覺得我們一方面是面對國際現實我們要選邊站隊我們當然是要站在民主自由人權的國家這一邊一方面我們國家的作為也要讓人家看出是一個負責任的國家我們已經不是以前那種開發中國家那種心態對等關稅是一個很合理的標準啊細節當然要好好來談啊"},{"start":4428.93,"end":4456.062,"text":"那我們台灣要走出去如果對人家的貿易算差這麼大的時候想辦法要多從他的國家採購物品或是雙方面的貿易經貿要繼續加深然後盡量在中間求取平衡所以大宗物資採購如果一樣的條件我們當然就應該優先跟他買能源的採購條件相同我們優先跟他買甚至國防武器的採購"},{"start":4457.503,"end":4480.985,"text":"那麼金融帳也一樣啊盡量雙方面之間我們要增加對他的投資啊所以賴總統就有呼籲說台灣的廠商如果你算一算覺得合理應該增加對美國的投資是不是有講過這個沒有錯我們應該國際間追求貿易的平衡是一個正常的事這是在展現台灣是一個國際之間負責任的經貿大國的一個態度"},{"start":4482.846,"end":4492.832,"text":"所以這個不是只有說因為美國要求我們不是因為這樣我們如果沒有照世界的標準在世界的舞台上面我們就不能跟人家講說台灣can't help"},{"start":4494.827,"end":4521.17,"text":"我們有能力幫助人家我們至少做到平等之後我們有能力還要再幫助更弱小的國家被打壓被欺負的國家這樣才是正確的心態嘛大家才會說你台灣人了不起啊走到哪裡都被人家稱讚我們這個護照出去那麼多國免簽才有道理啊那台灣如果不負責任就是要一個態度就是我就是打算佔便宜人家久了之後人家也不會高興嘛"},{"start":4522.73,"end":4540.7,"text":"所以我是覺得說現在的官很為難因為你的回答稍不得體或是說其實很得體但是只是你的用詞不照他的標準就有可能被霸凌現在都要求說公務員不要被霸凌但是有時候民意代表都會霸凌公務員霸凌官員"},{"start":4542.097,"end":4560.095,"text":"大家應該是在這個地方平等的就事論事我再次跟你強調不要偷換概念你們財政部所屬的單位你要通令什麼還稅於民啊 什麼超增啊這個在你們體系以後這個詞都不能用這個都是錯誤的觀念啦 好不好 加油 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝好 謝謝秉瑞 那接著請賴世寶召委發言"},{"start":4581.445,"end":4583.486,"text":"台積電要去美國 但是已經去了日本"},{"start":4604.561,"end":4613.349,"text":"請問妳喔 她去日本熊本那個廠她是一個新的獨立的公司還是子公司 請問這是子公司所以她要報合併報表 對吧"},{"start":4629.227,"end":4654.705,"text":"賺的錢要匯回來這個對吧要看他股東會最後怎麼決議那現在公司的移所稅是合併報表那員工的中所稅就有一個問題了比如說張三跟李氏台積定的高級員工年薪一千萬"},{"start":4656.107,"end":4657.268,"text":"他現在去亞利桑那他如果在台灣報那就670萬的免稅額海外所得 670萬免稅"},{"start":4671.004,"end":4679.147,"text":"現在已經調到750萬現在調到750 最新的750 免稅額從阿里諾納賺的錢就750萬匯回來他就只課250萬的稅喔我是台積電在竹科的員工我一樣課1000萬的稅喔現在差很多"},{"start":4693.012,"end":4711.97,"text":"啊怎麼辦 請問你 這樣要怎麼辦張三理事會的差勁 去亞利桑那裡回來只課250的稅啊我在這裡傻傻的在這裡工作 就課一千萬的稅假如年薪都是一千萬 怎麼講委員 這個雞蒸的食物我是不是請署長來做署長可以啊 送署長"},{"start":4713.457,"end":4739.29,"text":"報告委員因為台積電的子公司所僱用的員工他是在美國提供勞務所以他會變美國的來源所得美國會去課稅簡單講他是講美國的所以他美國的稅沒有比台灣輕這是第一點第二點他海外所得要不要課稅要看他是不是台灣的居住者如果他已經改變身份已經變成是美國的居住者不是台灣的他沒有最低稅負的問題"},{"start":4740.33,"end":4758.427,"text":"沒有啊 我當然 我剛去一定是台灣人啊 怎麼會呢其實先去那裡工作也是先綠卡 那個一定要是台灣人啊要看他們有沒有符合 報稅要報台灣的稅啊 怎麼會報美國的稅除非他還真的要轉成公民 那好幾年咧不會馬上變美國公民啦 不會的事啦"},{"start":4759.568,"end":4771.658,"text":"我在美國你給我說得很清楚的哪有時候去的工作馬上變美國人先拿綠卡綠卡的時候還是台灣人啦是是是所以我說要看居住者就有這個問題啊我現在告訴你們你們都沒想過就有這個問題"},{"start":4774.901,"end":4795.741,"text":"他就在那裡即便讓你課了稅他一樣其他的地方可以匯回來台灣裡面750萬是免稅的這裡面就有空檔了就這些人就有空檔了這個你就少收了很多稅就這樣跟你說好 謝謝提醒是因為他在國際你都在想我這個問題的拜託你是補稅署長都沒在想這個問題"},{"start":4798.904,"end":4812.156,"text":"報告委員 其實在國際間重重稅 課稅這一定產生的嘛所以 下一項問題來 部長啊就很重要的避免雙重課稅不然的話 你在這裡承諾我們才兩年啊"},{"start":4813.957,"end":4840.785,"text":"大概每一個咕咕咕都沒有要躺在美國餐飲院原來中醫院 你說 哇 好樂觀喔哇讚 多哇讚好像你那時候第一次回答我的時候是前年的9月 10月就要通過了到現在今年3月了叫咕咕咕啊 你知道不是咕咕咕的意思吧我了解咕咕咕就是那個雞蛋嚇不出來叫咕咕咕啊"},{"start":4842.442,"end":4847.708,"text":"跟委員報告,其實這個部分的工作,我們財政部的同仁和美方的財政部同仁其實一直就國際文書的內容,我們相互進行,有關技術性的一些討論都持續在進行但是美國國會的生態,你們也知道他們去年年底分局然後這一次的新國會上任,也很快通過了ADTA的兩個法案"},{"start":4866.026,"end":4877.259,"text":"這個另外他們國內當然他們也有政治上的一些考量譬如說現在參議院他們是在做有關川普新革員的一關有關認證的會議大家都知道因為現在川普2.0 黨內部會議的關稅的不夠補薩薩沒有時間搞你這個啦 所以"},{"start":4886.028,"end":4906.853,"text":"部長 再給你一次機會 你告訴我 什麼時候可以有望千層啊今年有沒有可能 今年 今年跟委方 我想不管是總統員或院長在各種場合都不斷地在跟提起這個事情同時我們的外交部 美方的TECRO也都"},{"start":4907.413,"end":4911.676,"text":"也都一直積極的在跟美國的國會在進行溝通時間的話這個時間其實真的不是掌握在美方他們的一個整個審議的一個進程那我們會積極的溝通不管經濟部也好或者是外交部也好都在努力"},{"start":4926.963,"end":4955.329,"text":"川普講的台積電不是投資一千億美金是兩千億美金而且亞利桑那的那個那個州長是女的就在台灣他把這個一些supply供應面的廠商都找來啦歡迎你們在這裡投資啊亞利桑那是秒不勝斷的地方啊現在不得了了有TSMC在那裡整個supply chain整個破亡層變成一個"},{"start":4956.861,"end":4976.158,"text":"變成一個叫什麼 也不是鳳凰城啦 阿里隆啦 鳳凰城是capitol阿里隆變成一個阿台積電城阿里隆的台積電城變成這個樣子 整片都是喔這麼多廠商在那裡你們這個稅務要趕快解決的話這個影響很大耶 部長"},{"start":4977.68,"end":5001.4,"text":"我們知道對稅的部分雙方來簽訂租稅協定的話可以避免超額限貨所以這個部分我們應該是要積極地趁這個時機應該要出美方來重視這個議題但我相信他們非常重視來我們請今天的八大關股航空上來好嗎"},{"start":5002.481,"end":5005.584,"text":"請董董回答董董董董董董董董董董董董"},{"start":5032.372,"end":5042.922,"text":"他姓董又是董事長叫董董很多人不知道為什麼我講兩個 兩次因為在董董董董是金頭老 腦筋非常好的要給你耳朵好"},{"start":5046.021,"end":5068.768,"text":"你來造貨也賺很多錢可是我們看到最近因為大家要應付川普的412號對等關稅外資拼命的賣最近賣了你們拼命買可是你們買的很少賣了很多買的很少所以股價就一直跌你知不知道現在關股最近買多少知道嗎"},{"start":5070.198,"end":5087.205,"text":"抱歉,因為我沒有參與這方面的投資處的事情你們現在賣幾十億而已啊,人家賣七百億啊現在是沒有護盤吧,現在是沒有護盤加減護盤啦,沒有護盤是給政友說瞎話啦,沒有護盤來,我現在比較詐欺的,比較詐欺的,只是聽我八位長官啊,大長官聽好喔你們一到三月份的加薪都沒有發,為什麼?"},{"start":5096.728,"end":5115.843,"text":"報告委員 因為整個財政部是我們的大股東那大股東沒有加薪情況之下我們身為納指公司請問你是關股公司 你是國民事業還是民營化公司我們是販關股的事業你們是民營化公司對 民營化公司民營化"},{"start":5116.744,"end":5137.18,"text":"啊 名話奇怪 台積電也有我們的政府的關股喔國化會的主委就是台積電的董事 台積電他就已經加薪了為什麼你們可以不加薪 那個台土書啊 這三家可以被諒解"},{"start":5138.101,"end":5147.852,"text":"但是你們其他的都是不能被諒解的你們公司治理董事會決定該加薪就加薪為什麼要拖為什麼一定要跟著政府走呢"},{"start":5148.885,"end":5171.637,"text":"報告委員我們的股東結構不一樣啦因為在台積電裡面關股還是占少數嘛但是關股在我們董事會裡面占的是多數但是沒有過半嗎但是在董事會裡面是過半啦所以在公司治理上的話我們還是要尊重的你們在關股董事會裡面過半"},{"start":5173.436,"end":5188.402,"text":"所以 所以就只能按照政府來走 是不是對 包委員 其實我們只是晚一點發但是如果哪一天就整個公務人員調薪的時候我們當然會回溯的當然可以回我知道啦 可以晚一點發啦財政部來 部長"},{"start":5197.727,"end":5217.757,"text":"其實你們都是刻意的晚一點發都是為了配合大罷免晚一點發啦沒有這樣的事啊當然是啊你們本來也可以發按照問了主計長主計長告訴我很清楚的本來就可以按照舊的來發"},{"start":5220.3,"end":5237.146,"text":"您說我們一般行政機關的公務員當然因為我們還是按照舊的發那另外像台土書三家國營事業的金額他們已經跟公務員的薪水脫鉤了也不會有說請問你現在總理說我夫人也不過了請問你什麼時候可以發這個要問主計總署"},{"start":5242.808,"end":5247.233,"text":"因為現在萬物齊漲啦 現在電價也要漲 水價也要漲還要再回來再問那個東東西校獎金什麼時候可以放"},{"start":5262.136,"end":5286.821,"text":"我們的獎金它有一定的期程啦什麼時候?績效獎金應該已經發了吧?我們年終獎金已經發了績效獎金沒有發?沒有發?我們還有我們有預支啦我們有預支一個月但是五月份的時候會發然後會跟員工酬勞會員工酬勞吧大概發幾個月?我們全部獎金加起來大概九個月九個月?全部全部"},{"start":5288.852,"end":5314.962,"text":"沒有沒有報告委員是九個月是九個月我們以往曾經但是因為去年請問後面幾位啊因為我時間到了後面幾位啊比趙鋒還少的舉手我都比趙鋒少所以沒有比趙鋒多少一個月的舉手比趙鋒少一個月的舉手少兩個月的舉手少三個月的舉手"},{"start":5317.154,"end":5341.733,"text":"稍稍兩個月啦 欸 你的卡帕拼咧 招風都可以發這樣子喔你發發這個 最後一個小問題 最後一個小問題 來來來 核庫金的董事長 林董事長 來來來從你上來以後啊 以前合作金庫都是在前面數一數啊從你上來以後都是倒數第一名啊 你們講一下本片了 為什麼這樣子"},{"start":5343.254,"end":5344.876,"text":"跟委員報告 核庫最近已經有在調結構了你看2018、2019、2020、2021、2022合作核庫"},{"start":5360.755,"end":5382.588,"text":"都不差 雖然不是怎麼樣 但最少不是最後一名可是到了2024年你來當董事長 最後一名原因是什麼我告訴你原因 大家都知道媒體寫的是什麼就是員工在抱怨 你都在只賣保險其他業務不要只賣保險所以垃圾那樣 水那樣 你不要調整一下"},{"start":5385.054,"end":5399.288,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分在賣保險是所有金融機構都在做的事情集中在賣保險這其中一部分不應該集中在這裡啦你業務要分散一下嘛"},{"start":5400.049,"end":5414.315,"text":"是你要不要去跟董董去研究一下會跟董董再請教你來當董事長這樣 吃六歲啊最後一名啦 難看啦 你董事長難看好看 好不好謝謝 謝謝賴教委謝謝委員接著我們請郭公委員發言"},{"start":5436.014,"end":5464.443,"text":"主席有請總部長請財政部部長嗎總部長委員好部長最近的這個川普的關稅戰造成很多國家的困擾尤其他的貿易夥伴但是美國的財政部長特別強調4月2號之前如果有人來溝通的話或許可以避免這個制裁那我問一下我們這邊有沒有打算去溝通啊"},{"start":5466.475,"end":5485.79,"text":"行政部門也好 或者是企業部門 我相信在溝通的管道上應該是你會不會參與啊當然我沒有去參與到美國去溝通這件事情但是我們國內的部門 我們的行政部門一直對於對於我們會持續的關注有沒有可能在4月2號之前去參與溝通啊去溝通 4月2號之前"},{"start":5489.985,"end":5514.816,"text":"這個我沒有參與但是關稅的部分後端的部分跟你有關係你知道為什麼嗎因為對等關稅的部分平均對等關稅的部分還是偏高主要是農產品的部分我們相對於比較高的情況底下我們基本上在美國跟台灣之間我們還是有不一樣的地方我們還是偏高偏高的部分是要調整的話那我們要從哪邊來做調整呢"},{"start":5515.996,"end":5528.205,"text":"那調整對等關稅的話有的我們高有的他們低有的是他們低我們我們的高那是調他們的還是調我們的譬如講以這個汽車關稅來說美國的關稅是2.5我們是17.5會有沒有可能我們17.5從對等關稅來說變成2.5有沒有可能"},{"start":5532.635,"end":5548.387,"text":"跟委員報告這個到底對等關稅未來會怎麼樣實施已經第一個他是不是對特定國家或者是特定項目這個都還不明確但是也跟委員報告我們也進行了相關的盤點我們的汽車17.5的關稅但是我們從美國進口的有是303億好303億台幣但是我們出口到美國的呢大概只有30億也就是換言之我們是出進口他的多進口他的少而且我們都是1000CC"},{"start":5562.278,"end":5578.084,"text":"以下的沙灘車所以這個部分基本上如果我們汽車製造業本來就比較弱沒有錯但是你保護一些很少的這一個汽車工業的話那相對而言我們進口很多的部分"},{"start":5578.624,"end":5605.039,"text":"那裡頭就牽扯到一個問題啊關稅到底有沒有對等的問題啊最後還是關稅對等的問題就如同他們農產品我們進來比較多以蘋果來說我們進了蘋果的關稅20%但是99%蘋果都進來的但是只有一%的部分是本土產而已啊那這個部分就我們關稅的部分農產品的部分比較高我們是不是有要調整的空間啊我意思說你如果進行盤點的話你即便還沒有參與你至少要yearly嘛你要準備起來放嘛對不對"},{"start":5606.099,"end":5614.223,"text":"開始著手進行了沒有對我們這個部分有行政院有一個專案工作小組我們都有參與你有參與嘛這個就是有參與嘛所以有在面臨這個關稅調整的問題嘛對不對部長"},{"start":5618.492,"end":5620.674,"text":"黃小米的這個部分的優惠關稅到3月底結束是會延續還是停止"},{"start":5640.348,"end":5661.343,"text":"黃小玉這個相關的關稅的一個條約因為事實上除了為了穩定物價除了黃小玉還有其他大眾的物資大眾的物資不管關稅貨物稅還有營業稅的這個條件會在行政院的穩定物價小組裡面來討論不是三月底已經快到了啊到底是會停止還是延後你們都沒有開會嗎行政院在下週就會開會討論下週什麼時候開"},{"start":5665.838,"end":5689.654,"text":"3月25號會開會好 3月25號開會的時候決定要不要延長嗎那你認為是不是要延長因為CPI的部分國內以後接下來電費可能會調漲啊端稅的問題可能會造成CPI的增加啊那現在雖然那個俄烏之間的談判現在開始了但是問題是輸入型的也可能會造成其他的因素造成CPI增加所以說你也有看法怎麼樣"},{"start":5690.454,"end":5714.582,"text":"是委員 您說的各項因素在物價督導小組裡面都會去討論不管是國發會經濟部 經貿業部都會去做這個相關的評論你現在沒有個人看法那我再問你因為不確定的因素實在是太多了央行上週的報告總共57頁當中有提到35次的不確定的字眼這不確定的字眼來說的話以最近常常有一些人提到說我們的這個超額稅收"},{"start":5719.044,"end":5732.518,"text":"這個3000多億中央的部分3757億的這個部分啊要拿去普發現金一億啊這可是萬萬不可啊因為變數這麼多的情況底下可以拿去發現金嗎然後那個部長還說還債還有沒有其他的方法"},{"start":5737.639,"end":5759.394,"text":"跟委員報告我們的稅路的情形如果優於預期的話不舉債多還債然後有剩下到稅計剩餘要怎麼樣運用第一個我們必須要考慮我們的財政穩健還有保有財政的韌性那它在運用的時候必須要考慮國家長遠整體的發展如同剛剛委員所說的國際的政經體制有相當的不確定性"},{"start":5768.219,"end":5788.569,"text":"總預算的關係因為財富緩緩的關係我們的新興預算的2527億不能動資加總起來憨不啷噹有超過6000億之多啊但是你的稅基盈餘的部分在114年的時候預算提出來的時候剩下158億相對於112年的累積的剩餘是7044億的情況底下你是不是應該先放在稅基剩餘裡頭比較有彈性啊 部長"},{"start":5790.27,"end":5797.372,"text":"而且您剛剛說的7000多億已經花...對 剩下158億啊我知道脫貧運算的關係啊所以說你是不是排二體的部分是應該先放在稅計剩餘嘛對接下來才還債嘛這樣才有彈性嘛不是嗎是的我們先還債了我們先還債了然後再放到稅計剩餘什麼比例"},{"start":5814.43,"end":5821.775,"text":"現在要等到決算出來才能夠確定剛剛也有提到一個問題現在股市的不確定因為很高但是以就目前為止我們現在財政部展所國安基金的規模大概是5000億"},{"start":5837.265,"end":5849.697,"text":"那五千億國安基金成立的時候你知道台灣的市值 台股市值多少嗎那時候多少你知道嗎 成立的時候五千億那時候台股是八兆而已啦現在的台股市值多少"},{"start":5850.738,"end":5871.762,"text":"現在是70兆 超過70兆還是停留在5000億啊夠嗎你依照這個國安基金的設置條例當中國安基金立場進來8次現在資金規模越來越高你覺得5000億真的夠嗎這個部分其實我們是會隨時關注這個問題隨時關注就要修改這個設置條例隨時關注這個是需要改條例的"},{"start":5875.983,"end":5895.778,"text":"所以說要評估一下是不是要調高嘛是的沒有錯吧五千億不夠嘛然後另外一個部分吼那個有關稅金的部分吼那個部長最近有一個消息是說吼要四月份大查稅包括餐飲美髮這一個能飲店有沒有"},{"start":5897.865,"end":5917.536,"text":"這個部分對於基增的查核、稅務的查核是每年的例行的一個工作許南市啟動大查稅不是一個基增嗎?有沒有?沒有,我看那個署長在那邊搖頭,你就說沒有就好啦人心惶惶部長,你回答啦"},{"start":5919.535,"end":5938.856,"text":"不是大查稅沒有大查稅對你就是要這樣反映所有的營業稅在113年的時候就超徵616億你還在大查稅你要查大企業中企業你查這種小企業小商家還不是小企業是微型還不是微型還是細微型的這種時間點你們就要開始否認"},{"start":5941.338,"end":5962.509,"text":"有人在炒作嘛 不是嗎所以這個部分我覺得那個產生部你們要反應要稍微快一點好 謝謝委員接下來我還有一個部分因為這個房租的關係房租的關係在從你們110年開始租屋補貼之後我們就看到110年開始11 12 113連續好幾年"},{"start":5967.091,"end":5981.078,"text":"房租租金的CPI年增率大幅成長這大幅成長看起來是內政部的事情但是財政部有針對房東的專案檢查問一下現在檢查幾戶了為規律多少這個詳細的數字我是不是請署長來做說明來 署長重點"},{"start":5986.926,"end":5994.45,"text":"報告委員 我們三次加起來大概才6053件那補的3億多那我們現在還在進行一個113年度 也為期兩年現在還在進行當中現在600"},{"start":6002.199,"end":6022.871,"text":"現在是110年到112年那有沒有違規違規多少我現在看看違章的部分我沒有單獨的統計數字但是違章的稅額加起來的話違章的稅額加起來大概有我要算一下100"},{"start":6024.752,"end":6031.796,"text":"另外一個部分 署長我跟妳建議一下因為現在有從源頭應該也要查去除了房東之外有一些台灣租屋房 租租屋 易租房這些東西有沒有帳"},{"start":6045.302,"end":6071.664,"text":"其實從這邊也可以看到出來的數據這源頭管理的問題接下來目標就是要實株登錄目標是要實株登錄要查這個用意其實要達到這個目標要跟內政部來進行合作啦好不好最後那個部長我要再用一點時間我要問一下那個台九的董事長那部長你也留著一下你們現在已經有開始傾向於反傾銷的調查嘛"},{"start":6073.922,"end":6080.235,"text":"那反起銷的調查開始之後呢我們也看到主要部分一個競爭不公平反起銷的調查"},{"start":6081.827,"end":6105.915,"text":"對岸惡意補貼35億來傾銷傾銷來侵佔我們的整個市佔率台酒市佔率現在不到50%然後10罐啤酒6罐是從中國進來同時他在混淆視聽標示不明好 第一點這個標示不明我問一下財政部的看法要不要修正酒類標示的管理辦法把這個產地跟品牌的標籤把它同等大小有沒有可能部長請回答"},{"start":6106.535,"end":6130.589,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我們正在研議看要不要做一個更明確的可以知道它的產地是哪裡而不是讓那個標示上面混淆了這個交費者所以說比例上的調整是有可能的嗎我們再來考慮這個部分要怎麼做這個方向好這是第一個第二個部分如果說地方政府地方政府不講話萬事就平安了這種情況底下不積極作為"},{"start":6133.424,"end":6157.52,"text":"那我問一下財政部難道也做事不管嗎你們有沒有可能專案稽查我們應該會有考核吧考核是另外一個行政手段嘛專案稽查才有實質的效果嘛有沒有考慮專案稽查跟委員報告目前的查核都是地方政府他們會到各個賣場可是如果是依照你們的條文當中是各個縣市都有類似這種情況呢"},{"start":6159.144,"end":6172.355,"text":"那不是中央政府要有所作為嗎所以我們每年都有頒布煙酒茶契的專案計畫難道是另外一回事啦就專案啦聽不懂我的意思這種要遏止這種亂象啦部長"},{"start":6177.759,"end":6196.969,"text":"我們會對機優的給予表揚,但是對於做得不夠好的我們看有什麼樣的方式來讓他們要重視這個事情這是你平常應該做的另外兒要做,應該要做專案稽查部長好好考慮一下謝謝謝謝國文委員接著我們請林思敏委員花言"},{"start":6203.837,"end":6208.619,"text":"好 謝謝張偉 請我們財政部莊部長請莊部長部長早 部長先請教你那個香菇攜帶的問題目前我們攜帶農蓄水產品或食品類的入境關於乾香菇的限量規定是否還是規定就是每次只能1公斤"},{"start":6232.762,"end":6250.791,"text":"這個細節的部分,我是不是請我們關護署署長說明,謝謝報告委員,剛剛薑菇的部分現在應該是一公斤,就是如果說攜帶入境不能超過,就免申報,直接入境免申請查驗,它最多就是一公斤"},{"start":6251.972,"end":6263.923,"text":"但是我最近收到沽農的陳情他說從金門海關可以放行攜帶三公斤進來所以目前關務署這邊的查緝作業是如何執行"},{"start":6265.169,"end":6289.184,"text":"包委員我們的規定一公斤就是一公斤我們都是依照法定的但是最近好像就是說他們陳情喔都是三公斤就沒有再查緝他們期待三公斤也可以進來所以我才問你說那邊執行的情形如何啦所以這部分要加強查緝啦那我想我要求關務署是不是把今年一到三月"},{"start":6290.285,"end":6304.123,"text":"或者在未來每一季你們茶器的不僅只有香菇我想很多的農特產品你們都把茶器的結果做成報告提供給本席還有我們茶友會的委員來做一個了解OK 好 謝謝那書長請回"},{"start":6309.724,"end":6320.053,"text":"那個部長我想我在總諮詢的時候一直對財化法的行政院版本何時能夠提到我們這個立法院來我很關心這個議題那這個"},{"start":6323.697,"end":6340.473,"text":"部長你當時回覆本席說財政部修法方向已經確定了包含水平與垂直的分配方式也非常具體也就只差落入文字的呈現但在上週行政院的復議遭到我們立法院否決後"},{"start":6341.414,"end":6363.192,"text":"卓院長馬上表示將會研議合法合憲的救濟方式但是他現在他會研議他可能會做這目前看到的就是開始政策的宣講會所以我要請問部長財政部是否有派員參與行政院所辦的地方政策的宣講會財政部有派員參加嗎"},{"start":6364.791,"end":6388.622,"text":"您是說譬如說週六、週日那樣的一個宣講財政部沒有參與我想財政部在業務報告中提到你後續將配合行政院的政策辦理這個是否意味說行政院在政策宣講會結束後就會提出我們行政院的版本"},{"start":6390.149,"end":6396.335,"text":"這個基本上跟宣講會基本上是沒有什麼相關連也就是對於財化法這個部分我們在去年的12月20號三讀通過那對於相關的內容我們和主席總處詳細的研議以後認為有許多至愛難行的部分那因此就提出了覆議"},{"start":6412.732,"end":6440.798,"text":"在富裕理由裡面我們也想強烈了這個治安難行的部分不管像是垂直分配的部分因為大量的把中央的財源割出去那會造成這個中央施政的一些推動跟延續以及包含水平分配的部分許多公視裡面不明確以及有些不合理的地方比如說會有剩下的沒有分出去或者是說在人口還有那個營業額營利事業的營業額裡面佔比過高"},{"start":6443.459,"end":6463.848,"text":"會讓原來財政優勢 這個是我們一直在提出來的你那個復議的內容當然我都了解 我們不是在這邊重複了我比較想去了解就是說3月6號你也召開了這個各縣市的協商會議嘛就3月6號的會議後財政部也表示說多數縣市支持財政部統籌稅款的分配規劃"},{"start":6465.427,"end":6494.726,"text":"所以陳儒財政部長您所說的就紙紗將文字這個落入所以財政部的財務法的版本依照您當時的說法應該有了嘛就有了嘛跟委員報告我們那天3月6號的開會第一個就是在方向上就是我們會擴大中央統籌分配稅款的一個規模然後把那個滿足這個基本財政需求就是那個基本財政差額都會把它放進去這個部分都會考量"},{"start":6495.206,"end":6522.668,"text":"同時我們那一天提出來更大一個重點就是在水平分配的裡面有關財政努力跟基本建設的需求裡面有關指標還有權重我們是很明確的把它列舉出來那表示說我們這個部分我們已經有一個初步的這樣的一個成果讓各縣市政府以及專家學者一起來做討論部長我知道你的努力但是我最後還是想了解在這個會期財政部會不會提出版本出來"},{"start":6524.295,"end":6542.787,"text":"跟委員報告我覺得財劃法這個部分第一個12月20號通過這個部分在治安難行的部分我們很可惜就是說副議沒有能夠通過我先問你這個會期會不會提出版本出來因為你現在很明確告訴我們只差這個文字落入所以這個會期會不會提出來你給我一個承諾"},{"start":6545.208,"end":6559.648,"text":"那一天我們在開會的時候3月6號我們的記錄很快也會出來我覺得已經看完了那你也知道還有一些專家學者們以及建制政府也有提出一些意見這些意見我們都必須要把它納入考量所以我們一直"},{"start":6560.789,"end":6585.254,"text":"我一直認為這個部分我們需要再加強的溝通我覺得不需要這麼急迫的一直用就是說急迫因為財務法這個事情中央對地方的財政挹注立法院都三讀通過版本了如果行政院認為自愛難行我們也一直告訴行政院財政部儘速提出你們的版本送到立法院來審議"},{"start":6586.752,"end":6596.966,"text":"我想這個才是討論事情的一個方向而不是我們一直問你說什麼時候可以提出來阿部長一直不願意去很明白的告訴我們國人告訴立法院"},{"start":6598.129,"end":6623.943,"text":"所以這個會期到底可不可以提出來你說可不可以就好了我想這個部分就我認為還是要充分的交流跟溝通然後有更大的共識那個部長我看你今天有沒有看到聯合報委會陳國良教授就政大責任系的教授兼主任他提到有關於這個新版的朝要法要這樣上路這邊你今天有沒有看到"},{"start":6625.285,"end":6653.225,"text":"因為我今天還沒有看到我覺得他的建議我簡單跟部長講一下部長他講我覺得他講的很有道理他說新法的有序導入就是有序導入就是希望能夠訂定日出條款讓法案從115年度或11年度來生效他建議財政部要趕快提出新的一個修法的版本"},{"start":6653.965,"end":6675.767,"text":"第二個 他建議要建立日落條款的評估與檢討機制例如 增訂本次修正條文生效三年後需檢討施行成效的規定 據以進一步修正第三個 他說校正覆議案所提出的文字遺漏定義不明與比例計算分母不正確等明顯的立法的問題所以部長"},{"start":6678.879,"end":6681.75,"text":"妳看了 妳瞭解了喔瞭解瞭解 謝謝妳贊不贊成她這樣的一個建議"},{"start":6685.445,"end":6713.591,"text":"陳教授其實那天3月6號我們有邀請他但是他因為有其他事情沒有來但他有提書面的意見大致上也是這樣的意見那也就是說我們當時是提復议是希望還有機會再來討論但是因為現在復议也過了這個部分他提的幾項的事情確實也是當初所提到就是因為預算年度以及時間關係我還是建議你盡速的參考各界的意見盡速提出"},{"start":6714.771,"end":6722.596,"text":"以免你們一直說自然男性現在一直提不出版本好不好謝謝部長 謝謝委員現在請101的董事長 賈董事長"},{"start":6737.543,"end":6758.873,"text":"謝謝蔣董事長請教賴總統他在3月13日開國安會議之後特別提到說國人赴大陸旅遊要落實登陸的一個制度但是我們看到許多的旅遊業者與協會團體都紛紛表示這將影響到開放台灣旅行社組團赴中國大陸的進團令"},{"start":6760.174,"end":6777.308,"text":"解除更加困難中國大陸的旅客來台觀光開放更是遙遙無期我想請教甲董事長您曾對外表示就台北101而言就是業績不靠入客所以不用擔心會有任何的影響"},{"start":6778.689,"end":6806.061,"text":"但本席想請問你的是畢竟台北101是我們台灣的觀光的指標也就是說你也算是重要的觀光業者之一無論你的業績是否會受影響以一位觀光產業經營者的一個角度你對賴總統所宣示的新措施你覺得對整體觀光產業的影響它的層面會不會有負面的影響"},{"start":6807.855,"end":6829.011,"text":"如果是以業績 以人流而言的話是一定會有影響的所以說我們在接受到了這樣子的一個指令的時候我們自己其實我覺得觀光業者可能自己要有一些對應的措施你認為這是正面的影響還是負面的影響"},{"start":6829.98,"end":6853.198,"text":"我認為如果對於業績而言當然是負面的但是就是因為這樣子所以我們才要自己能有更多的對應要有更多的對應所以你的看法反正你站在你經營台北101的角度你就認為我的業績不受影響但是對於其他的觀光業或者旅行團體因為我能夠掌控的就是101"},{"start":6857.682,"end":6877.276,"text":"我能夠掌控的就是我們101如何要在這樣子對於這個台灣這樣子的時期我們應該要如何能夠對應如何能夠生存甚至把業績做到更好那我想這是我的責任好答得很好謝謝還被誇獎了嗎 謝謝好 謝謝接著我們請中嘉賓委員花言"},{"start":6896.345,"end":6920.231,"text":"主席 在黨委員先進列席政府機關社長官員會長工作夥伴媒體記者女士先生有請財政部莊部長和國庫署陳署長以及複稅署的宋署長好 財政部部長還有陳署長還有宋委員好部長好 兩位署長好部長 我們賴總統要推亞洲資產管理中心你支持不支持"},{"start":6921.789,"end":6951.241,"text":"支持這當中的主責是金管會金管會說他希望能夠亞太資產管理中心當中優先要來一個公司協辦的TISATISA制度你知道吧我知道那麼他也要由當時發幾乎通的吉寶公司來協助那請問要推動TISA跟亞洲資產管理中心有相關您願意在全程範圍內來幫忙推動TISA增加國民的推銷保障嗎"},{"start":6952.852,"end":6970.152,"text":"這個是國家狀況政策當然財政部會跟金管會都會一起努力好那麼在這財政部可以提供的優惠我也私下先請教過宋署長了說現行的所得稅法對於投資稅制優惠這跟TISA息息相關因為TISA就是一種投資除了所得稅法當中"},{"start":6970.712,"end":6993.556,"text":"我們8萬元個人直接買股票或存款的利息可以抵減之外在特別扣除的部分我們如果投資基金這些利息信託基金的利息或股利呢是有27萬元的那麼署長跟我說這些呢是足夠提供民眾投資的誘因優惠請問你所知道國人使用這27萬或這8萬用的多不多普普普遍"},{"start":6995.926,"end":7007.553,"text":"應該不少不少的所以老闆告訴大家不少啊你說現行的報稅系統直接變名就直接帶入所以民眾不曉得他有投資抵稅優惠而不知是這樣子的嗎"},{"start":7009.451,"end":7026.267,"text":"委員報告有的時候您剛剛講就是說我們這些相關的租稅優惠可是民眾不見得都知道那他又想說不知道對但是在TISA的時候我們也跟金管會說我們會跟你合作對於現行有關的租稅優惠我們會陳列出來而且協助去做說明讓民眾可以知道"},{"start":7029.509,"end":7046.839,"text":"對 協助我們甚至可以有同仁去協助說明說我們現有的租稅又會有這麼多那我們來看看這個TISA下一頁好 我們來先看一下台灣的退休金指數排名不如越南和中國很可怕喔倒數第十不如新加入平等的越南為什麼"},{"start":7047.759,"end":7069.674,"text":"我們從公務人員退伏基金管理局來看第一層強制性的社會安全保險像勞保國民年金保險第二層強制的員工退休制度由雇主提撥還有第三層自願性的商業保險儲蓄制度請問我們所說的TISA是不是就是這個第三層就是你去購買投資對你的未來的退休產生一種儲蓄保障是不是這樣"},{"start":7071.738,"end":7093.812,"text":"應該 除此之外還有其他的對 我說TSAC是屬於第三層嘛對 是這樣嘛它可以去投資 持續投資的概念好 這三大指標當中充足性 永續性跟完整性當中 權重最高充足性台灣只得到46分表示台灣在第三層的部分有很大的成長空間你認為 是不是認為TSAC可以有助於國民退休的第三層保障"},{"start":7096.245,"end":7124.603,"text":"我想這個部分對於這樣的規劃運用是有幫助的對於民眾未來退休生活的一個...是的那往下看那國人對於退休儲備不足感到憂慮他說我們的壓力來源是生活成本增加退休儲蓄不足最高擔心生活成本不斷提高的六成擔心退休儲備不足的是七成跟六成然後呢把退休儲蓄視為首要的財務規劃佔九成還不是財富自由喔那麼"},{"start":7125.697,"end":7151.582,"text":"民眾就必須透過長期投資跟及早規劃退休那剛剛你也同意了TESA跟這個目前呢息息相關它可以幫助民眾來達成它的首要財務目標可是呢目前金管會檢視啊沒有額外新增個人投資的扣除額在TESA的部分那有沒有考慮財政部來新增投資稅制的優惠來幫助TESA推動"},{"start":7155.046,"end":7165.807,"text":"我再講一次現在TESA這麼重要能夠有助於國人解決他的財務目標那財政部願不願意新增個人的投資額來協助TESA的推動"},{"start":7169.268,"end":7190.327,"text":"剛剛委員也羅列了很多我們現有的一些租稅優惠我們也對照過日本也好還有其他國家的租稅優惠其實我們更優於他們所以這個部分事實上是目前來說我們應該是讓民眾知道我們已經有現在有這麼多優惠而民眾不清楚的部分我們可以加強來說明部長因為你這道說詞我聽過宋蘇長講過但我不認同"},{"start":7192.881,"end":7219.097,"text":"我這樣講好了 我們去住那些高級飯店他們有健身中心 裡面有蒸汽室 有游泳池 有重量訓練結果我們問說 旅客為什麼不去使用健身中心旅客很想要什麼 超慢跑要跑步機啊你說我們這些都可以涵蓋在內 你知道健身中心什麼都有啊可是實況上就是什麼我們國人使用這些租稅優惠的意願跟強度不高"},{"start":7220.06,"end":7228.808,"text":"那我先問你那如果有人說好因為現在超慢跑很流行我們的健身中心飯店增加一個專區就是跑步機專區你會反對嗎會增加成本嗎"},{"start":7232.981,"end":7250.52,"text":"本來你說你的健身中心什麼都有就像你說的不管是你的股息你的利息我健身中心的這些項目通通都要來享受可是旅客使用的率不高啊他得到的好處也不多啊但是你說現在旅客喜歡超慢跑我增設一個慢跑機專區可以嗎"},{"start":7254.929,"end":7282.026,"text":"我幫你們理解到這個比喻我想這個租稅的部分必須涉及的層面比較廣我覺得跟一個飯店裡面去偵測一個跑步機應該是不太一樣我用比喻 你用比喻回答來 我就直接知道你會這樣回答請你們現期內把目前國民使用現期投資稅制當中 優惠當中各個項目的比例 使用率還有金額的區間分布告訴我譬如說27萬國人有多少人在使用這27萬"},{"start":7283.487,"end":7304.192,"text":"第二 他從不到一萬的到使用滿27萬的 分布是多少第三 他使用哪些項目 是鼓勵鼓息是鼓勵還是利息 這些把它調查出來我們就知道 是不是像財政部說的 我什麼都有 我有27萬讓你用我不需要再設一個專區 專門來針對TESA來提供租稅優惠"},{"start":7307.771,"end":7319.955,"text":"請你把它調查出來我們再來個輸贏好的我們可以把這個資料可以做統計好我們來看一看現在日本的NISA對照於台灣的TISA日本的舊置它從40萬120萬提高到120萬240萬投資總額從800萬600萬提高到1800萬"},{"start":7325.197,"end":7352.513,"text":"而我們台灣呢完全沒有增額外的稅務優惠然而日本從舊制到新制他把他的投資的商品從共同基金都弄出來了我們還特定基金喔所以你看日本的結果怎麼樣日本一炮而紅所以從NISA一開始呢他創新高啊是上年同期的3.2倍新開戶超買的就是說我們如果能夠新增額外的稅務優惠來推動TISA"},{"start":7353.033,"end":7363.745,"text":"就可以充足我們國民退休的第三層保障而且國家也沒有增加額外的支出這是我的結論你回去研究一下剛剛保障的那三點要求把它統計出來可以嗎"},{"start":7366.439,"end":7384.259,"text":"我們來看一下2024年金控員工的平均年薪排行榜我注意到這14家大型金控只有第3名的兆豐第5名的第一金還有第8名的和庫金還有第9名的華南金我們的飯宮股只有這4家入榜是不是這樣"},{"start":7390.442,"end":7411.807,"text":"這些都是金飯碗民間的金控員工薪資是比較高的但是國營的我們怎麼樣跟飯工股跟民營徵財這裡面有沒有國營的沒有飯工股的有世家是不是這樣子請問一下怎麼樣來讓我們的飯工股或者我們的國營金融機構可以跟民股來徵財"},{"start":7414.455,"end":7439.938,"text":"我想這個泛公股的部分因為它是泛公股算是一個泛民營化那它可以用公司治理以及自己按他們自己的規定來做處理薪水最直接嘛對 薪水最直接待遇最明顯嘛為什麼人家連排行榜出來我是一個大學出來的畢業生我看一看我會選擇泛公股嗎我會選擇國營的金融機構嗎榜上無名啊那我們往下看"},{"start":7441.249,"end":7458.291,"text":"為什麼會這樣子 我們立法院也是始終的之一第八屆第四會期 那時候立法委員包括李桂民 翁崇勳 費鴻泰提議要求限制我們這些財政部所屬的國營事業金融機構的績效獎金最多只能到4.4"},{"start":7460.134,"end":7479.071,"text":"是不是目前的限制沒錯這是誰的限制立法院立法院而且很清楚是第八屆國民黨幾位委員所提的我個人認為要調整要思考一下你限制這些就限制了我們飯工股跟我們的國營金融機構去跟民營的來競爭人才你同不同意"},{"start":7480.706,"end":7483.592,"text":"是的我就跟委員報告為了這個有關我們的國營金融事業能夠更有一個更強的競爭力能夠"},{"start":7492.114,"end":7513.528,"text":"攬財 留財能夠做得更好我們已經有了五個方案謝謝委員對我們國營金融事業的一個關心那五個方案也可以跟委員報告你要報告之前我先問一下我們來看看現有的方案比如說一個很簡單的伙食費三千元你看看目前我們金控的資產台銀金是排名第一"},{"start":7514.609,"end":7531.457,"text":"結果後面的趙鋒鑫 第一金 何庫鑫 華南鑫他的薪資在14名之內台銀金控是沒有欸他們目前台土輸啊對不起喔 這樣講有點不好聽喔台灣金控 土銀跟輸銀簡稱台土輸這國營事業輸淡淡嘛是不是這樣子好 駝子輝我們來往下看還有什麼生育補助是不是也是一樣相較之下台土輸也是輸淡淡再往下看下一個"},{"start":7544.691,"end":7569.843,"text":"我們的就是說不管是伙食費還是生育補助都是不如人家那請問你說有哪五大方案很快的簡單講一下第一個就是生育補助費的我們五大方案已經抱怨第一個就是生育補助費每一胎十萬塊然後不管是他自己或者是他的配偶十萬塊跟第一金差不多每一胎十萬好不錯跟第一金沒有了那第二項就是伙食費您剛才列出來我們希望以外加伙食費的話是每個月三千塊"},{"start":7570.663,"end":7596.216,"text":"第三個是經營績效獎金從4.4個月我們希望恢復到4.6個月這個部分那第二個對於激勵員工的部分我們認為應該在決算稅前營運裡面要提撥1%到8%按照員工的一些績效他的一個KPI達成等等給予做一些激勵的效果另外一個就是員工福利信託也就是剛剛委員提到就是讓他的退休生活更優化所以我們認為可以"},{"start":7597.517,"end":7619.226,"text":"他每個月從薪水出一千銀行相對出一千然後讓他做信託那未來退休可以有一個好的收穫既然你對台獨書對我們國營金融事業都這麼好TESA也可以對我們一般國民好吧TESA也是退休儲蓄的一種啊回去研究一下好很好這些我都樂見與財政部跟國庫總統來推動目前推動上有沒有障礙"},{"start":7620.266,"end":7648.903,"text":"有沒有立法院在反對目前來說是我們報行政院由任總在邀請相關機關延伤當中任總的態度是支持還反對任總第一個先就生育補助我待會回去問任總好您可以再跟任總我幫忙你問任總請他支持可以嗎謝謝委員最後主題站起來了我三個結論請第一請統計國民使用現行投資稅制優惠中各項目之比例使用率及金額的區間分布之數據並分期成效一個月內提出公平報告可以嗎"},{"start":7653.686,"end":7659.95,"text":"請評估新增額外的稅務優惠推動TISA以充足國民退休的第三層保障的可行應"},{"start":7680.643,"end":7699.373,"text":"行政院能不能在一個月內完成我們不敢把握但是我們一定提書面報告我反過來 你希望我多久幫你推動成那我當然希望委員越快越好我都給你兩個月 要不然給我兩個月你希望立法委員兩個月幫你推動成功好不好好 謝謝謝謝嘉賓委員接著我們請顏寬恒委員質詢"},{"start":7705.233,"end":7716.659,"text":"我想這個對公股銀行其實是一個很大的鼓勵這個公股銀行都招募不到員工了,是很大的一個困境我覺得不是立法院要加油,行政院也要加油"},{"start":7718.118,"end":7743.154,"text":"主席 各位烈士官員大家早主席有請財政部莊部長好 財政部莊部長寬恆借我幾秒鐘我那個宣布一下我們這個楊瓊英楊瓊英委員花言那個結束以後我們休息五分鐘那個時間暫停然後再補上去是 謝謝委員也謝謝朝委為我們的國營銀行同仁爭取相關的福利 謝謝好 謝謝主席 部長早"},{"start":7747.987,"end":7776.329,"text":"部長新會期房屋稅2.0新制的實施我們看到付稅署發布的訊息截至3月13日全台還有97萬戶符合自住房屋資格但是還沒有辦妥涉及作業那離期限3月24號只剩下4天目前還有多少用戶的民眾尚未涉及能不能請部長在這邊說明一下更清這個房屋稅2.0新制的一個狀況"},{"start":7778.049,"end":7792.973,"text":"我想先跟委員報告房屋稅2.0是從去年的7月1號開始施行那今年的5月開始按新制再開徵那這個部分的重點的內容呢就是單一自住的話我們的稅率從1.2可以降到1%"},{"start":7795.474,"end":7817.091,"text":"當然扣除豪宅的部分那另外就是對於沒有做有效利用的部分我們就會做全國歸戶然後按照差額稅率來差額稅率來克制而且每個地方政府都要這樣做那剛剛委員所關切就是說現在用自住的一個稅率的話必須要涉戶期那這個部分地方政府各個地方政府都非常積極跟努力的在宣導"},{"start":7817.751,"end":7840.478,"text":"那目前還有到2月20號的話還有97萬戶還沒有完全設齊那目前來說應該還會往下降因為到3月24號那未來等到開徵以後我們可能會有一些彈性的措施讓它真正符合自住的民眾可以不要因為這個期限而受到影響但是還是要有期限希望他們趕快來"},{"start":7842.018,"end":7858.232,"text":"我再請教部長新上路的房屋租金抵稅新制新制將房屋租金改為特別扣除額單身租屋主最高可減抵7000多元"},{"start":7859.033,"end":7878.927,"text":"家庭租屋主最多12,290元這是一個好的政策啦我認為說財政部這邊還是沒有想到租屋市場的一個根本問題就是租屋黑市的問題房客為了要避免租金調漲甚至於說被房東刁難的一個風險所以不敢冒險去得罪房東"},{"start":7880.107,"end":7909.087,"text":"根據這個租屋聯盟所做的租屋狀況調查54.2%的租屋主因為房東拒絕或者是害怕遭受房東不利對待而無法使用租金抵稅還有超過20%的租屋主甚至不知道租金可以申報扣抵所得稅這個匯民政策很多人是看得到吃不到甚至於不知道所以財政部到底要用什麼樣的手段才能讓這項政策落實到每一個租屋主的身上"},{"start":7909.947,"end":7927.127,"text":"民團是建議說財政部應該設置房客抵稅申訴專線公開宣示若收到房東妨礙租金抵稅的相關投訴將專案查核該房東是否涉及逃漏租賃所得稅對於這樣建議部長贊不贊成"},{"start":7930.839,"end":7947.553,"text":"是謝謝委員對這部分的關切第一個就是說在今年新上路的就是有關租金的特別扣除也就是我在外房租房子的話我的租金支出的過往是列在標準列舉扣除而現在是放到特別扣除裡面"},{"start":7947.973,"end":7966.682,"text":"那最高的限額也從12萬調到18萬那這個房客呢他只要拿出相關的租約等等的文件就可以就舉例出來那最高可以到18萬可以去扣抵他的那個做特別扣除額那也不需要房東的同意也不需要房東的同意那另外呢對於這個房東會不會阻礙房客去做這樣的一個申報其實如果對於這個我們現在其實有關相關的租稅優惠對於房東比如說房東他出租給"},{"start":7977.868,"end":7993.491,"text":"可以申請租金補貼的或者他把這個房子出租給作為社宅使用的話他每個月有15000塊的這個所得呢可以年繳所得所以換句話一年也是有18萬這個部分可以納入這個扣掉從所得總所得裡面去扣掉"},{"start":7993.931,"end":8019.188,"text":"所以這是雙面向第一個我們要照顧在外的租屋族之外同時我們也鼓勵房東他要誠實報所得稅然後我也給他一個租金優惠同時他如果出租的話剛剛委員提到就房屋稅的2.0裡面他出租然後他的租金申報符合標準的話那這個部分他稅率是可以用比較低的房屋稅的稅率所以我們用多個管項"},{"start":8021.17,"end":8035.73,"text":"讓房客可以適用讓房東也要去誠實申報要勸導也要鼓勵但是問題是說房屋黑市的問題終究還是一樣這個都存在嘛所以我們才說設置這個房客抵稅申訴專線部長你同不同意贊不贊成"},{"start":8036.851,"end":8057.621,"text":"我們可以來做規劃,謝謝委員這個建議我們會按委員的建議來做這個規劃接下來再請教因為老實講真的民眾是不太清楚啦剛剛有提到有20%以上的民眾是完全不知道那避免資訊不足還有不必要的損失那這個房租租金抵稅新制"},{"start":8059.562,"end":8085.554,"text":"要積極的做一個宣導讓我們的所有的租屋主都能夠了解清楚這部分財政部要多做一些設計跟規劃不要讓它淪為紙上浮麗那我再請教我們部長就是說今天要審查的海關進口稅者修正草案主要是為了要履行我國在南美洲唯一僅存的邦交國巴拉圭的台巴經貿合作協定第八號決議文的關稅減讓承諾"},{"start":8088.815,"end":8113.975,"text":"修正調降原產至八國的去骨豬肉、小麥粉、瓦類、庫類、紡織品等17項貨品調降至免稅米果貨品調降至10%天然蜜貨品分三年逐步調降至20%外交部次長在巴拉圭肉品推廣晚會也表示目標是要讓巴拉圭成為首個享有豬肉進口零關稅的國家"},{"start":8115.476,"end":8137.22,"text":"那要求這次的海關進口稅者的修正所有旅行台巴經貿合作協議的一個承諾也是國際政經局勢變化中展現我國對邦交國的一個實質支持那透過這個關稅檢讓我們強化與巴拉圭的一個經貿合作進一步的鞏固雙邊的一個外交關係這部分"},{"start":8140.503,"end":8147.762,"text":"這個關稅減少政策財政部是否有配套措施確保我們國內相關產業不會受到衝擊財政部有沒有其他的規劃"},{"start":8151.231,"end":8174.246,"text":"這個部分對委員報告有關巴拉圭關稅的部分其實產業主管機關都已經有盤點過對我們應該是沒有影響沒有影響那另外也要跟委員報告您剛剛提到希望我們加強這個宣導的部分對今年比如新實施的房屋租金特別扣除等等有關的但是我們的宣導費被通山了60%"},{"start":8176.227,"end":8204.464,"text":"所以我們會在有限的資源裡面盡力的去做其實這個部分這個就是蠻遺憾的就是在通篩裡面我們被篩了60%那我們會還是會努力去做啦所以我想也跟委員報告這個事情這個部長邦交國對我們國際生存空間是非常重要那關稅減讓協議確保我國對邦交國的承諾得以落實然後能夠維持長遠的雙邊關係確保國內最重要的作業同時就是要確保國內相關產業的生存"},{"start":8208.687,"end":8221.375,"text":"再請教因為時間有限剛剛有分別很多委員都提到我們上禮拜三月十一號宣布對中國大陸製的大陸製啤酒與特定熱壓"},{"start":8225.017,"end":8242.106,"text":"扁雜等鋼品這種兩大產類的製品啟動反傾銷調查隨著川普2.0的到來全球貿易戰現在我們看到川普對墨西哥、對加拿大都分別課徵25%的關稅對中國的產品加徵10%的關稅是疊加在上一次上個月已經開徵的10%"},{"start":8250.49,"end":8268.504,"text":"那美國計畫對於進口鋼鋁製品課徵25%關稅那他的目的是希望要優先用他們本土生產的這種鋼鋁製材這也會影響他們美國市場的有需求那我是講說這一次中國大陸這個"},{"start":8270.985,"end":8298.477,"text":"鋼鐵智能過剩那對於我們台灣他一樣以價格的部分來來對於台灣的我們的中農中鋼也造成相當大的一個衝擊那我是認同說政府維護國內產業競爭力的決心那以支持合理的貿易防疫措施那請教部長如果中國大陸採取報復性措施我們有什麼因應的一個策略"},{"start":8301.4,"end":8306.082,"text":"對於您剛剛所提到的相關的問題比如說像我們對於啤酒大陸的啤酒還有那個相關的熱壓缸的部分的反傾銷的調查這個事實上這個是在我們的一個本來的工作裡面就有一個反傾銷的一個"},{"start":8318.696,"end":8333.64,"text":"辦法實施辦法那對於有傾銷事實跟對國內的產業遭受損害的部分我們都會按照一定的程序和經濟部以及我們財政部一起進行調查以及認定然後課額如果符合的話那確實有對我們有傷害的話那就會課徵反傾銷稅那對於有關的有關您剛剛提到比如說川普這些關稅這些的問題我們還是要等到他的相關的細節內容公佈以後"},{"start":8347.385,"end":8369.459,"text":"公布以後來做相對應但是對應的方案目前都在研擬當中都在模擬當中這個是沒有都一直在做本期期待財政部提出具體的因應策略好不好確保我們台灣產業的競爭力當然是的會的我們會持續關注然後行政院也有專案小組在做相關的模擬方案的因應是謝謝部長謝謝寬恆接著我們請黃珊珊委員花言"},{"start":8381.945,"end":8403.915,"text":"謝謝主席 我請部長請部長委員好 是 部長早我想剛剛前面委員都在提台灣因為美國川普上台以後其實我們碰到很大的很大的挑戰尤其是川普有一個很重要的政策叫做對等關稅 對吧"},{"start":8406.617,"end":8424.02,"text":"對等關稅對他來說國外收他高的關稅他就要收你高的關稅同樣的他會要求關稅公平接下去你覺得台灣跟美國在除了現在在炒的半導體之外還有哪些我們可能會被美國要求對等關稅"},{"start":8426.811,"end":8433.812,"text":"對等關稅剛剛委員說的是一個就是他課我多少現在我們可能有哪些會變成到這個我們有盤整過有統計過有討論過嗎我們當然有盤點剛剛也提到第一個對於從美國進口的我們的前20大30大的貨幣大概有多少項目多少內容另外對於我們出口到美國的主要的產品以及它的金額我們都有做盤點"},{"start":8454.476,"end":8474.781,"text":"大概有多少會受影響還不知道還是還在盤點影響的話第一個就要看他提出的對等關稅第一個就是項目是什麼然後稅率是什麼部長這個不用再去看他提出來現在就長在那邊第一個現在我們收他多少他收我們多少都是明確的我只要問你說"},{"start":8476.141,"end":8496.795,"text":"你們什麼時候會盤點結束我們可能會受到對等關稅的影響有哪些項目我們已經盤點完成那你可不可以把這些東西提供給我們委員會的委員也提供會提供給相關部會我就舉一個簡單的例子汽車汽車在台灣當然我們有關稅有貨物稅"},{"start":8499.42,"end":8524.877,"text":"最重要我們可能還有奢侈稅這些相關的稅額對川普來說他可能都是稅那我們現在一台100萬的車從美國進口來大概我們要收到貨物稅LiLiCoCo加起來可能要收到50萬左右的稅也就是我們的稅負是50%但是如果我們的汽車出口到美國它的關稅只有2.5%這個會被變成對等關稅的要求"},{"start":8528.519,"end":8551.568,"text":"部長你覺得我們要不要因應呢對於各種的方案我們都在因應中我們都在嚴厲因應當中你們要因應第一個初步盤整的資料提供給我們委員會還有本席第二個我們現在因應的狀況我們有沒有去跟他們溝通或者甚至是做協調上一次好像說經濟部有派人去嗎財政部有派人去嗎我們財政部沒有所以接下來是整個政府要動起來"},{"start":8557.31,"end":8583.88,"text":"看起來川普政府不會停止而且他雷利風行立刻會處理所以不能等你慢慢盤點我也希望你們快一點第二個像汽車進口這個就很具體包括剛剛講的那些關稅都漲在那邊麻煩你們整理出來現在有可能受到所謂的對等關稅我們會受到的衝擊我覺得財政部包括我們的相關部會都應該給立法院一個完整的檢討"},{"start":8585.18,"end":8594.724,"text":"其實行政部門都一直都在動我希望是部長還有另外一個就是我國經過三次的重要的複稅改革里程碑在民國57年76年還有96年分別組成過複稅改革委員會"},{"start":8601.326,"end":8622.678,"text":"所以大概抓一抓就是每20年會做一次的檢討也就是說整個社會原來的稅制它因為因應它的變遷它會有一些調整那現在已經是第18年了也就是說我們這個稅賦改革委員會之前開過三次接下去財政收支化分法通過"},{"start":8623.658,"end":8641.327,"text":"地方稅我們常常這邊說娛樂稅印花稅還有我們常常說不合時宜的貨物稅都應該要再做檢討了而且財政部一直說要再檢討所以我們今天有個提案如果可能的話有關稅剛剛講川普要針對關稅"},{"start":8644.588,"end":8665.587,"text":"出招第二個很多的碳稅有些國家真有些國家可能考慮不真的那我們未來的計劃是什麼那營業稅所得稅等等稅制這幾年的超收也應該要檢討一下我們的稅制所以我們提案說請財政部在半年之內研議是不是在"},{"start":8667.044,"end":8679.349,"text":"20年即將到期的狀況我們來重新要準備召開財富稅改革委員會部長你的意見呢是委員稅制本來就是應該與時濟進隨著社會經濟有一個變化所以我們可以比較前面政府每20年做這樣的檢討"},{"start":8685.311,"end":8709.321,"text":"那當然我們107年也做過負稅的整個所得稅的一個優化一個大幅的一個變動所以一直都在滾動式的一直在檢討跟全國負稅改革會議這也是上次財化法的公聽會很多學者專家提出來的希望財政部去研擬相關的計畫我覺得至少20年了要做一次完整的檢討"},{"start":8710.282,"end":8728.324,"text":"這個部分我們再來研議它的可行性跟必要性所以這是我們希望財政部至少之前的政府做現在政府也應該做好接下來是有關居住正義的問題我們上次跟民團開了一個記者會我們現在所謂的所得稅的"},{"start":8730.295,"end":8753.713,"text":"報稅的資料從列舉扣除了12萬改成特別扣除了18萬接下來要報稅了這些東西我們發現有一大部分的民眾兩成不知道五成不敢報部長這是中烏黑市一直沒辦法解決的問題我們現在要做的是這個政策出來了立法通過了很多人不知道這件事情要怎麼解決"},{"start":8755.661,"end":8784.233,"text":"這個部分剛剛也宣導第一個宣導第二個我們規劃一個房客可以申訴的一個專線我想第三個你們的網站你們的相關的通知各種都要做但是也跟委員報告我們的政策宣導費被刪了百分之六十我們只能在有限的經費沒關係你的網站上放我的就會很多人報第二個部分我們光內政部包租貸款租金補貼就有六十八萬戶這個通知至少可以做到吧他們"},{"start":8785.407,"end":8805.207,"text":"敢申請租金補貼不敢報所得稅這個國家怎麼回事啊這個應該如果是有租金補貼他其實就是公益出租如果他的房客有取得租金補貼的話這個房東就是公益出租人的性質那他的所得稅裡面每個月有一萬五千塊租金補貼我們的法規是不可以去查稅啊"},{"start":8806.548,"end":8828.445,"text":"不是去查稅啊,他可以提供資料我們做領獻啊所以這是一個很重要的幾十萬戶七十萬戶總可以完成吧第三個就是我看到你們去查所得稅逃漏稅的租屋大戶就是這些包租公十戶以上查核跟五戶以上查核的重大查核"},{"start":8829.266,"end":8858.123,"text":"高達六成都逃漏稅也就是說顯然這些包租公還是很認真的在逃漏稅這個問題要怎麼解決我們已經第一個除了加強查緝之外其他稅制面譬如說提到就是說他的所得稅的部分你如果有讓民眾來申請租金補貼的話我們這邊就給你一萬五一個月的一個免稅的一個扣除對不對我想很多人還是逃漏稅因為他跟他的所得還是差很多"},{"start":8858.283,"end":8886.062,"text":"另外就是房屋稅的部分如果說他有申報的話那租金符合他租金標準的話他的稅率是可以用比較低的房屋稅的稅率所以我們是多管齊下那對於有關這所謂的租屋的黑市這個多管齊下我希望真的有用接下來的房屋稅2.0也希望他把房子拿出來用也希望他能夠拿來用第一個有自住不能自住也麻煩你拿出來租讓大家空屋的話我給你課比較多的稅但是因為台灣的"},{"start":8887.003,"end":8900.572,"text":"房屋持有成本實在太低了所以這些稅賦的誘因沒有辦法對這些房東有太大的誘惑所以逃漏稅的狀況還是很嚴重很多人剛講五成的人不能報"},{"start":8902.165,"end":8926.184,"text":"不敢報因為房東叫他不准報這個二房東才是今天租屋黑市最大的問題好多房東沒有問題二房東你要是去報了你要是不給你設戶口不給你報租金扣繳所以這些事情才是今天的問題好所以我要問說你覺得房稅2.0對租屋黑市有沒有幫助"},{"start":8927.37,"end":8954.436,"text":"當然是有幫助啊那妳預期有多少幫助妳預期有多少人可以因為這樣子讓這些所謂的租屋房子真的拿出來租或拿出來用在我想五月開始開徵嘛那申報完以後我們來做一個分析跟比較看看你們的期待跟實際有沒有很大的落差那重點還是查得到才有用查不到都叫做廢話"},{"start":8955.956,"end":8971.946,"text":"查不到就是白搭現在變成是解決租屋黑市的方法一線的基層非常非常的累因為他加大稽查的數量我覺得政策上面剛剛講的很多的東西其實是可以用政策來替代所謂的查緝"},{"start":8972.486,"end":8977.028,"text":"我原本不能說我們說的是廢話我覺得如果沒有查到沒有增加的話就是廢話我們是多管齊下努力的在查剛剛也有數據查到的數量跟補充的稅額都有有的都有具體的數據所以不是廢話第三個部分接下來是新清安我想問一下部長"},{"start":8989.515,"end":9002.797,"text":"還有我們的目前為止新青恩上次我們質詢之後你們才開始查所以查到了第一波第二波違法轉租的包租公還有人頭戶兩波查緝的話大概是一千多件違規是嗎"},{"start":9004.497,"end":9033.599,"text":"我們前兩波查的違規的人頭跟出租戶有兩千多戶兩千多戶那目前呢已經完成追回利息補貼的有百分之六十七那金額也達到兩千所以其他還沒有追回的原因其他因為其實我們第一個銀行他因為要去找這個貸款戶他也逐一的一戶一戶那有時候他要有空有時候他要沒有空對不對我們也需要用好好的勸說的方式第一個追回利息不能夠鬆手"},{"start":9034.379,"end":9055.434,"text":"該查就要查 該追就要追第二 接下去可能會有第三波我看到土銀台銀也都在繼續的清查這部分要麻煩這是公平正義的問題麻煩部長這邊再把查卸的結果第三波的部分再給本席一個完整的紀錄好的 我們會持續的做好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝我們接著請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":9072.424,"end":9074.368,"text":"謝謝主席 楊群發言邀請部長請部長"},{"start":9084.964,"end":9106.05,"text":"我們根據我們的關務署3月18號的新聞稿當中對於中國大陸及韓國產製進口不鏽鋼冷紮鋼品課徵的反傾銷稅第二次的落日調查案財政部也公告即日起中國大陸及韓國所有的製造商或者"},{"start":9106.75,"end":9114.412,"text":"是這個出口商按現行核定反傾銷稅率是38.1%及37.65%繼續課徵反傾銷稅那為期是五年那在這樣的情況之下我們知道因為財政部你們也努力的去調查"},{"start":9126.276,"end":9151.502,"text":"結果顯示認定傾銷及產業損害可能會因為停止課徵反傾銷而繼續或者是再發生對國家我們整體經濟它是有負面的一個效能產生所以我們再延長這五年那請教部長在反傾銷實施的期間你是否還有一個點我們要全面的去圍堵"},{"start":9152.162,"end":9161.128,"text":"也就是是我會監控監測進口商是我會透過第三地的轉運來規避這個關稅請教委員報告對於原產地的審查我們海關也是會去做審查的然後避免嚴防透過第三地轉運對這一點一定要加強因為我們一定要好好的保護保護我們的產業"},{"start":9179.1,"end":9194.833,"text":"接下來本席要請教新青安的轉租人頭戶違規的事項我們看到財政部先前公布了供股銀行加強查核目前第三波也已經啟動在第二波大概有600件"},{"start":9195.994,"end":9221.064,"text":"第三波你也追了回來將近千億的這個違規案件那在這樣的一個情況之下我們看到這個數字這是一個這是一個社會正義我們需要幫助的年輕人他因為這樣子的情勢而導致他一直delay在那邊等這是非常不對的一個情況所以本席要請教部長"},{"start":9223.346,"end":9234.04,"text":"這1000多案的違規案件在未來我們在貸款審核的機制上面你有什麼樣的一個調整精進方案請說明"},{"start":9235.728,"end":9256.654,"text":"跟委員報告新青安的目的就是協助沒有自有房屋的國民朋友們他可以用比較優惠的條件去代償然後買他的房屋當然所以你面對到這樣的問題你要怎麼辦呢所以呢我們給予有關利息的一個補貼那當然要正常運用不能拿去出租跟人家對所以第一個那我們現在變成一千多萬"},{"start":9259.495,"end":9279.889,"text":"我們已經前面兩波查到的是兩千一百多戶那已經追回的利息有兩千七百多萬也就是說國家資源有限應該用給真正需要協助的人所以另外您就提到說我們有什麼加強的措施第一個在貸錢的時候要詳盡的審核我們的公股航空都已經"},{"start":9281.79,"end":9292.179,"text":"強勁審核第二個就是代後的一個管理追蹤看有沒有去做出租或者是他這個是不是在審核之前就要看有沒有是加強審核管控機制代後的管理然後對於申請新青安符合資格的人我們應該優先讓他可以帶得到錢"},{"start":9300.886,"end":9316.358,"text":"讓真正需要的人可以用得到這項措施請你把今天方案給本席因為我們一定要確保這個政策的支援是真正要落實給有需要的年輕人這個是我們的目標我們一起加油今天方案給本席"},{"start":9316.938,"end":9343.674,"text":"那據媒體報導3月12號我們呢這個詐騙猖獗是讓全國民眾非常的不安那有發生銀行跟其他人去共組詐騙集團也遭了地檢署來起訴那麼金管會呢副局長他也表示在這樣的情況之下不管是存匯交易客戶身份持續的審查以及帳戶監控作業員工異常"},{"start":9346.295,"end":9366.443,"text":"行為管理等機制似乎沒有完善的建立及為落實確實執行內部控制的機制違反了內機內控的辦法那要處罰這麼多錢兩千兩百萬的划還在這樣的情況之下請教部長詐騙集團長決我們要怎麼樣內控請做說明"},{"start":9370.805,"end":9387.162,"text":"根委報告發生這樣的事情我們也覺得很遺憾也就是說我們的銀行其實應該要一起做打詐防詐賭詐但是呢竟然有銀行的行員跟外人共組然後做這樣的事情第一個地檢署已經起訴了"},{"start":9387.942,"end":9401.186,"text":"一言起訴我們認為第二個我們已經把他免職了第三個對於內部的人員已經做了行政的懲處那金管會的罰款那當然我們就尊重金管費金管金檢機關的重罰那後續我們應該要強化我們的內控機制以及強化行員要告訴他們說千萬不能有僥倖的心不能去做這樣的事情所以我們都是模範生啊宮古銀行都是模範生類是 不能寬戴 是的不能寬戴 好因為宮古銀行"},{"start":9417.15,"end":9432.851,"text":"大家都很辛苦所以因此在財委會呢在審查總預算的時候也通過要拉近國營金融事業機構跟泛工股金融機構的什麼我們也提出了因為他們太辛苦了又不夠"},{"start":9434.253,"end":9461.835,"text":"那所以我们至少要有让大家平衡一点所以我们也提出了也就是在他的伙食费生育补助这一点非常重要他的奖金员工福利以及信托这些项目可以好好的来协助供股银行的行员能够愿意继续为大家努力那在这样的情况之下本期要请教本期要请教你们现在的进度到哪里"},{"start":9463.046,"end":9471.137,"text":"我們的進度財政部已經提了五項方案報到行政院那人事總署呢對其中的生育補助已經在3月6號開會其他的項目在徵詢相關機關的意見當中這個方案裡面包括生育補助我們認為應該每胎"},{"start":9478.507,"end":9489.634,"text":"十萬塊 不管是行業 又非常重要 每台十萬塊第二個 伙食費的部分呢在外加的部分是每個月三千塊每個月三千伙食費經營績效獎金我們希望從原來這個總額的4.4"},{"start":9493.757,"end":9510.852,"text":"提高到4.6個月這樣的那個績效獎金另外要提撥1到8%的這個稅前盈餘然後當作激勵員工在這個表現上以及這個績效上好的要做激勵第5個就是員工福利信託也就是說"},{"start":9511.553,"end":9518.279,"text":"每個月他提撥一千然後銀行提撥一千然後讓他退休的時候可以有一個好的資金我們歡喜的聽到財政部也做出了方案那麼這也是在"},{"start":9528.227,"end":9553.81,"text":"這個大院裡頭正式通過的主決議我們的目的是什麼呢最重要的要留住人才因為現在人才是非常難請我們的公股銀行所有的員工都是這麼這麼的優秀我們希望可以把他留下來部長要加油你預估什麼時候在其他活也就是生育OK十萬OK了伙食費"},{"start":9554.671,"end":9564.094,"text":"是每個月3000那獎金的部分從4.4月來升為4.6月那員工福利的部分稅前盈餘提撥了1.8%來作為1到"},{"start":9572.697,"end":9573.358,"text":"我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":10115.523,"end":10136.748,"text":"好,我們進入開會,那接著請李坤臣,李坤臣委員發言等大家都回座好了"},{"start":10150.235,"end":10153.579,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們請財政部莊部長莊部長"},{"start":10160.858,"end":10183.473,"text":"會員好部長好 辛苦了這個在3月6號的時候財政部有邀請這個學者專家還有地方政府來開會那在開會呢主要還是在討論這個財化法的這個統籌分配款的這個分配的公式還有它的權重那我看這個我們財政部跟主席處也有出來開記者會然後有三點的共識"},{"start":10184.434,"end":10201.386,"text":"第一個就是說這個財權跟市權要做調整然後不過地方政府對於市權調整也還不確定因為這要看中央政府怎麼再去跟地方政府做協調這是第一點那第二點就是說這個在水平的分配的這部分"},{"start":10202.199,"end":10224.215,"text":"包含財政的努力跟基本的建設大概分這兩類我看這個地方政府也沒有太大不同的意見當然這個細目比重要怎麼去做調整可能還要再討論但是大概就是分這兩類第一個就是財政努力的指標一個是基本建設的指標"},{"start":10225.316,"end":10247.364,"text":"然後接下來就是說統籌分配款的方式就是說當然大家覺得說是不是要給地方政府更多的財政的自主權那當然這個財化法通過之後當然地方的財政自主權會相對來提升不過這是3月6號所召開的會議"},{"start":10249.125,"end":10258.179,"text":"3月12號這個在野黨已經否決掉這一個財務法的復議案了那我想請問一下部長那接下來咧接下來要怎麼做"},{"start":10260.232,"end":10280.909,"text":"跟委員報告這個財化法其實涉及到這個各級政府的財政資源的重新分配它是非常重要所以我們一直主張不應該倉促的修法而應該做充分的討論然後有最大的共識然後一起再來做推動那當然我們在這一次的去年的12月20號三讀通過的財化法"},{"start":10283.471,"end":10300.422,"text":"有治案難行之處,我們已經經過行政院院會通過,懲請總統合格後提起復議那在復議裡面,我們也寫得非常的清楚,第一個就是說對,我知道,但是復議的結果復議的結果就是沒有通過,就是沒有復議,就是維持原案但是呢,我們認為這個接下來的問題就是說"},{"start":10307.046,"end":10326.424,"text":"首先以114年來計算的話初估計算的話中央的稅款要多支出3753億這是一個那第二個新修的法案又說不可以減少一般性的補助款換言之中央的整個財政會割出去很大一塊"},{"start":10327.165,"end":10339.415,"text":"那這樣的在市權沒有調整的情況下 中央的施政就會有很大的困難也就是說他很多沒有辦法推展 那主計總署也提出來了扣除你114年的稅出來出估來算的話3兆1扣掉法律義務支出1兆8 剩下1兆3 而要割出3753億情況下各個部會可能都要同產28%的影響"},{"start":10351.804,"end":10378.238,"text":"所以這個部分是影響很大另外在水平分配給各地方政府的部分由於它分配的公式其實有很大的不清楚譬如說加起來不會等於百分之百的有些餘數就分配不出去那個序位分數法也沒有講每一個級距有多少那在分配上就會產生困難這個是副營業過以後依然要面對我也知道財政部目前會遇到這些困難所以你們也找了地方政府來開會但是第一個"},{"start":10381.58,"end":10398.107,"text":"這個一般性的補助款這個再講說你就不能少但是計劃性的補助款咧對那麼因為一般性補助款不能少那計劃性補助款就一定會受到排擠對那譬如說像這個我們計劃性補助款譬如說我們有TPAS還有一些預約津貼還有一些租金補貼這些屬於計劃型的補助那會不會受到影響這個部分呢根據主總的一個計算當然會受到因為譬如說不扣"},{"start":10409.832,"end":10433.963,"text":"國防預算如果還非常重要增加的話可能會減少的幅度會更大如果國防預算不受影響那其他的會增加更大嗎就差了28%各個機關的經費就會減少到28%好那所以接下來是不是會跟地方政府來談就是說計劃性的補助這部分權重要去做一些調整"},{"start":10435.496,"end":10452.315,"text":"目前第一個就是計劃型補助款有些計劃的是地方要分擔的乘數跟中央要分擔的乘數可能就要做調整因為地方接下來就是財政上面會比較寬裕那過去我們補助比較多的部分那當然因為現在中央沒有這麼多錢了"},{"start":10453.476,"end":10482.99,"text":"那是不是說在這個跟中央跟地方的這個比重上面會做個調整比如說以前是8比2那現在可能改成6比4或是5比5之類的會做這些調整是是就勢必的因為是就是這樣子的面對大家要點面對好那另外一題就是說那其實各地方政府的這個總預算在去年也都通過了那接下來如果這個總統公布了這個採訪法之後那地方政府怎麼去做相對的因應呢"},{"start":10485.656,"end":10509.423,"text":"這個財化法總統公告以後呢後續看行政院要採取合憲合法的程序如果合在救濟那要來做這個部分要來再做思考對啊那如果啦如果所有的救濟的方式都沒辦法完成的話那我的意思是說那現在地方政府他們預算都已經也完成了那如果接下來多了這麼多預算他們怎麼去做處理"},{"start":10510.443,"end":10528.418,"text":"這個部分在114年的部分應該就是沒有辦法就是不會去動不會去影響因為各個地方政府可以獲配的中央統籌分配稅款必須在前一年的時候大概八月底的時候財政部就要通知各地方政府"},{"start":10528.778,"end":10533.763,"text":"您在明年的時候可以獲配多少中央統籌分配稅款是多少金額它會納入它的是一個年度的一個稅客收入那這個部分因為114年可以分配的金額已經在去年都通知了所以114年度我們的總不會再去做這個投薪單分配"},{"start":10548.075,"end":10565.945,"text":"那因為這個卓院長在總席訓練的時候他有提到因為有委員問他說財化法附議案不通過那下一步是怎麼樣卓院長曾經有提到說判題新版本因為那時候你也在場那可不可以解釋一下卓院長這句話的意思是什麼意思"},{"start":10567.608,"end":10580.457,"text":"卓院長當時有提就是說其實在去年的時候卓院長有去到立法院去做相關的溝通也希望說財化法的修正可以"},{"start":10580.97,"end":10600.988,"text":"在做一個比較詳盡的一個討論而在半年以後提出版本但是問題是12月20號還是通過了那個我不知道就是黨團那個國民黨團提的一個版本嘛那接下來呢我們可能就要面對一個新的財化法的一個後續的作業要有什麼樣的方式來處理對那所以咧"},{"start":10603.57,"end":10629.106,"text":"那其實在3月6號的時候我們財政部也邀集了專家學者以及各地方政府來召開所謂的諮詢會議諮詢會議裡面最主要是聽聽大家在爭取大家的意見看大家的一些看法那專家學者的意見以及各地方政府都有表達具體的意見以及我們其實在會上也如同剛剛委員所說的我們也提出了相關的財政努力跟基本建設那所以就算是"},{"start":10630.367,"end":10652.952,"text":"他們也都有一些意見提出來,都會納入我們的一個參考所以說就算是這一個副院部通過維持原決議那3月6號所討論的那一些指標還會繼續再跟我們地方政府再做溝通,再跟他們做確認那所弄出來的可能就會比較是接近朝野的共識就對了"},{"start":10654.273,"end":10661.599,"text":"我們會持續的跟各地方政府來做討論跟溝通持續的好那最後有點時間問一下現在這個有關這個中國的這些啤酒傾銷到台灣然後這個那也有這個協會他們提出了這個反傾銷稅的這個調查那我想請問一下那目前的進度怎麼樣"},{"start":10679.52,"end":10691.363,"text":"有關啤酒跟鋼瓶的部分我們在3月11號已經公告了也就是說我們開了關稅稅率審議小組的會議然後啟動了調查也就是說經濟部去調查對於國內產業的初步調查有沒有損害以及財政部要後續調查有沒有"},{"start":10699.165,"end":10724.185,"text":"有没有请销的一个事情然后再来决定要不要临时课征反请销税然后再做一个最后的一个调查跟确定以后如果确实有请销事实而且损害到国内产业那就会课征反请销税这个目前都在积极的进行当中因为涉及到财政部跟经济部对 是的那接下来是经济部会去做这个调查"},{"start":10725.545,"end":10749.395,"text":"經濟部會去做調查我看這個時程預估大概4月20號經濟部會完成初步的調查那接下來就是財政部就經濟部的調查就是這個你們會做初步的認定那你們做初步的認定的話如果認為說的確它有涉及到這個請銷的話那你們是不是可以最快在什麼時候可以課徵反請銷稅看一下署長"},{"start":10754.89,"end":10769.181,"text":"報告委員,那依照時程的話最快應該是在六月底到七月初啦,最快最快嘛,最快就是說如果調查出來的確是有這個請銷的話,所以最快在這一個六月底七月初就可以課徵反請銷稅了?臨時,課徵臨時反請銷稅那稅率咧?"},{"start":10776.551,"end":10803.07,"text":"要看那個傾銷差率去計算它可能都不一樣每個廠商可能都會不一樣有它配合調查的廠商我們要去算它個別的傾銷差率沒有配合調查的廠商就會有一個一致性的一個傾銷差率去適用OK好那麻煩注意一下這個時程了好謝謝謝謝主席 謝謝部長謝謝昆禪委員那接著請羅明才委員發言"},{"start":10810.373,"end":10833.69,"text":"主席 各位出列席 官員大好 主席可不可以請財政部莊翠雲莊部長好 請那個部長董事長你好委員好面對現在常常共軍老台那這個情況好像越來越"},{"start":10836.824,"end":10847.713,"text":"國安基金現在操作的情況怎麼樣它的規模是多少需不需要再往上來增加基金的規模"},{"start":10849.439,"end":10869.091,"text":"國安基金根據國安基金的設置管理條例裡面它可運用的資金總額是五千億那其中兩千億是跟金融機構來借款另外借用政府的四大基金三千億那歷來我們的進場呢都是用這個借款的方式還沒有動用到四大基金"},{"start":10870.1,"end":10887.984,"text":"那五千億的規模夠不過五千億的規模當然我們知道目前因為在國安基金是八十九年成立的那個條例那時候規定那目前的台股的市值達到七十一點六兆是當時的九倍了然後外資的持股也佔了四成那對台股的狀況是越來越嚴重然後加上"},{"start":10894.305,"end":10913.89,"text":"國際的情勢的一個變化我們認為我們會一直持續的關注這個股市的一個動態然後來考量這個國安基金的一個目前的一個規模但是目前來說應該是還在這個運用的範圍裡面當年設置的時候股市不到一萬點啊不到一萬點現在股市已經兩萬點啊那"},{"start":10920.598,"end":10928.807,"text":"除非你認為台灣股市不具備挑戰三萬點的實力所以國安基金不需要那麼大"},{"start":10930.663,"end":10934.345,"text":"這個兩者應該沒有,因為我們剛剛有報告過了以今年的3月18號上市工資的總市值大概有71.6兆當然是比國安基金當時成立的時候已經有9倍之多了所以國安基金要不要5乘以9倍乘以9倍"},{"start":10951.295,"end":10976.313,"text":"那這個部分因為涉及也涉及到條例的要修正那我們會持續的關注如果修正的話大概希望會調高到多少這個部分還需要這個省政的一個研議看就是要調高到多少那誰來研議那當然國安基金我們持續都是一直在關注那目前國安基金已經退場了嗎因為最近外資匯出很多"},{"start":10980.267,"end":11005.351,"text":"那我們看到台積電從最高是一股多少一千多少一千二一千一百三十五是不是好像那麼多啦,已經破一千塊了我們發現因為台積電逐漸變成美積電的時候我們的護國神山走山了"},{"start":11006.963,"end":11034.288,"text":"走三大家心裡很緊張啊部長你會不會緊張跟委員報告台積電就是台積電它不會成為美積電也不會成為日積電我們這個台積電本來就是一個大型的一個公司國際型的公司它其實像這個全球佈局是公司的一個策略我相信這個部分大家不要把它講成是美積電那護國神山依然是護國神山"},{"start":11035.137,"end":11062.432,"text":"那為什麼他突然在今年才說要投資美國以前不投資今年投資他準備到美國投資多少之前在亞利桑那已經投資是投資650億那未來會投資1000億那我想一個公司他在對外對全球布局1000億美元那對外對國際的一個全球布局有他公司經營的一些策略川普說"},{"start":11064.147,"end":11086.662,"text":"要變成兩千億美元喔部長你有沒有統計過台積電它是護國神山最重要的基礎那半導體以台積電為主周邊的企業大概有多少家上市公司"},{"start":11088.294,"end":11093.718,"text":"因為它是一個中心當這個中心移開的時候原本可以對台灣資本支出就是投資在台灣的部分減少了很多很多 三兆"},{"start":11118.615,"end":11133.21,"text":"如果是兩千億美元的話資本支出本來原本六兆是要投資台灣的現在加上周邊的企業部長啊連根拔起耶"},{"start":11136.688,"end":11153.323,"text":"跟沒有台灣依然是台積電的一個政策他在台灣的一個投資還是會持續進行我請教部長那你有沒有算過就是台積電一年啊他對台灣的稅收的貢獻是多少"},{"start":11155.381,"end":11176.298,"text":"你剛講得很好啊所有上市公司是71兆啊那我再問部長一句啊那台積電的市值是多少?你剛講得很好啊全部上市是71兆嘛那台積電的市值是多少?33條啦33條啦 保定"},{"start":11184.929,"end":11213.682,"text":"所以當他離開的時候影響是很大的我在這邊苦口婆心講是說大家不要輕忽啊因為很多我們銀行界的這個董事長總經理稍微挫在手上你想想看嘛這些錢如果不移到美國去三兆加三兆六兆放在銀行裡面多溫暖啊"},{"start":11214.861,"end":11242.448,"text":"去年所有的金融機構獲利的情況怎麼樣?去年的金融機構的獲利算是不錯是不錯喔?好那我們看看所有的今天的公股銀行在內積內控方面部長你有沒有自信說我們的內積內控因為都是公家的都是公務體系應該不會出問題吧?"},{"start":11246.306,"end":11259.016,"text":"根委員報告內積內控一直是各公股銀行非常重視的那財政部也在相關的會議裡面提醒大家不能鬆懈對於內積內控要強化而且因應外界的情勢變化應該要有更周全的一個機制結果不要鬆懈也沒有鬆懈"},{"start":11267.201,"end":11293.104,"text":"他們不會鬆懈那最近所有公股銀行裡面有沒有被金管會處罰的啊被金管會處罰的是有哪一個當然我們知道您提的大概應該就是台灣銀行的兩位行員跟詐團的一些不法的做法你剛剛說你不會鬆懈啊不會鬆懈為什麼會被處罰"},{"start":11294.467,"end":11312.813,"text":"不會鬆懈但是有些行員他就是走相關的漏洞這也就是我們還是要加強控管的部分公家機關在民眾的心裡是一個堅而不破的信用之牆錢如果存在"},{"start":11318.089,"end":11333.697,"text":"公股的金融體系台灣銀行我還擔心說半夜被偷被盜裡面還有很多的詐騙集團那不是打破了長年以來民眾對台灣銀行的信心嗎"},{"start":11335.043,"end":11341.784,"text":"委員沒有裡面有很多詐騙集團台灣銀行裡面沒有很多什麼詐騙集團那為什麼會被處罰呢這兩個行員的個人行為個人行為那已經提起公訴了已經被起訴了然後也免職了那裡面內部的主管同仁也給予行政的懲處那對於金管會的一個裁罰我們也尊重那當然我們也把這個案例要告知所有的各銀行"},{"start":11363.269,"end":11387.264,"text":"要告訴他們不可以有僥倖的心,法往恢恢,疏而不漏所以部長,準規罪無分,昨天之錯好像從來沒發生過沒有什麼傳過所無門的一句話也沒說然後就過去了?不會啊以前從來沒有公股銀行有發生這種重大的金融事件"},{"start":11389.597,"end":11413.798,"text":"這個部分我想我們一定還是會加強的跟各公股行會要宣導我相信他們內部也都做了許多的一個措施是因為管理階層薪水太少或者是說管理不當你看今天的所有公股銀行裡面很多人都是你看嘛一個職務然後就兼誰誰兼董事長"},{"start":11415.967,"end":11438.105,"text":"然後兼代理總經理這個代董再來還有這個誰兼董事長的然後誰兼多少還有董事長兼總經理的總經理兼董事長部長你這個人事不重要嗎"},{"start":11439.773,"end":11458.392,"text":"人事的部分當然是很重要什麼時候會有新的一波人事有一些下面的子公司或孫公司也許會由他們去兼那你意思說台灣中小企業的董事長總經理可以兼董事長就一直兼下去嗎不會"},{"start":11460.165,"end":11475.141,"text":"不會一日間你這個職務懸在那邊很久了你為什麼不充分的授權各司其職然後不要出現有漏洞的地方當然"},{"start":11475.942,"end":11484.07,"text":"本身我們的董總們都有他的權責在公司治理上他們是有他們的權責去處理你總不能說財政部部長你又去兼負稅署署長去兼關務署署長"},{"start":11492.936,"end":11507.393,"text":"那個職務考量這個地方就有它的功能性吧當然部長什麼時候會有新一波的人事布達新一波的人事布達隨著台企營的董事長辭職以後後續會有一波會移動後續什麼時候後續這個時間應該不會太久會不會超過一年"},{"start":11514.296,"end":11539.349,"text":"不會超過一年不會超過一個月這個部分我想不會在太久的時候是不會超過一個禮拜還是一個月這個部分我想您不久以後就會知道好啦,我這邊提醒的就是說要酸緊各個螺絲是的那個你輕鬆愉快沒出事我們職學院不用那麼辛苦啊"},{"start":11541.028,"end":11545.595,"text":"加油啦謝謝委員謝謝羅明財委員接下來我們請賴會員召委謝謝主席有請財政部部長我們請莊部長"},{"start":11556.933,"end":11578.333,"text":"我延續羅明財委員的議題我們所有的公股銀行還是換公股銀行董事長代理總經理金融金控金控的董事長代理銀行的董事長剛才羅明財委員請教你"},{"start":11581.856,"end":11599.819,"text":"會不會再拖過一年你說不會嘛那一個月也不太可能啦那是不是三個月有這個機會呢因為我覺得適材適用讓更多的機會來更好的人就是說更多人才來為國家服務其實這個是我們期待的三個月內呢"},{"start":11601.178,"end":11621.758,"text":"跟委員報告認同委員的看法就是是財是所而且我們應該就是說對於台企銀董事長卸任以後他的應該會不久的將不久就會有新的不是啊你的不久的將來我們把它設定在三個月有沒有機會應該有"},{"start":11623.88,"end":11627.403,"text":"應該有 好 謝謝那我們也希望就是在三個月內有更多的優秀的人才繼續投入為國家在金融這個系統裡頭為大家服務謝謝委員 謝謝部長我想今天央行在下午要"},{"start":11643.888,"end":11670.755,"text":"召開禮監事會議你下午也會一起參加這個禮監事會議是的如果這個我們這邊的會議結束以後我應該就如果趕得上我就會去是好我想這個總裁在上一週他其實很明確的講到了就是分析到2025年全球的經濟的四大變數他講得非常清楚了他包括就是美國總統的一個執政還有各國央行他的升息跟降息"},{"start":11671.315,"end":11697.345,"text":"還有他的貨幣政策還有中國的經濟衰退還有地緣政治的一個風險這些因素都足以就是說在2025年其實是我們全球經濟的一個四大變數部長你對於這個四大變數這個四個變數裡頭它可能影響到物價跟社會那個一個穩定的部分現在財政部有沒有什麼樣規劃相對的因應的作為"},{"start":11701.561,"end":11717.564,"text":"跟委員報告您這邊列舉確實因為有相當多的一些不確定性存在不確定性存在那財政部來說第一個剛剛大家一直提到的就是說川普他會不會實施所謂的對等關稅然後對等關稅的細節內容是什麼是什麼然後對我們國內的產業會有哪一些產業會有影響以及影響的程度這個部分財政部和相關的部會一直都在持續的進行收集資料以及做盤點"},{"start":11729.967,"end":11757.206,"text":"同時行政院也有專案的工作小組在做各種模擬方案的應對那同時經濟部就我所指他也有跟相關的產業都去做一些座談了解他們的一些想法以及可能未來的一個困境所以我看你那個3月11號你有一則新聞稿就是我們內部的一個這個會議裡頭就是也是也做了很多因應的一個方法嘛所以說我們也希望就是說做好了萬全的一個準備那"},{"start":11759.708,"end":11785.791,"text":"當然這個下一個我想要再跟你討論一下就是居住的正義我們針對第八波不動產的信用的管制這個央行在對於就是不動產信用的管制他持續講得非常清楚他說會追蹤管制它的成效還有市場的一個變化那尤其會審慎就是銀行在每一季的黃帶的執行的情形跟改善的狀況"},{"start":11786.973,"end":11793.414,"text":"那言下之意就是說央行是不會再祭出第八波的信用管制了,是不是?"},{"start":11795.657,"end":11820.731,"text":"這個有關信用管制的部分應該下午的理事會也應該也會討論到這個因為每一次的一個不動產的信用管制要實施之前理事會都會討論那市場會不會再升級呢那這個部分有關市場是不是都會在下午的會議裡面做討論那會後呢央行的總裁也都會召開記者會對大家來做說明那你個人的態度呢你個人的看法呢"},{"start":11821.871,"end":11841.958,"text":"呃個人的態度其實是應該會呃會在理事會裡面去做呈現然後大家一起討論對所以不能提早講呃不適合不適合哈好那接著我想了哈這個黃士景說其實我們看到了成效哈這確實也是一直在降溫哈那我們用去年的七月這個還有"},{"start":11842.818,"end":11864.749,"text":"兩萬多棟的一個交易到今年的一頁只剩下一萬多一萬多棟那顯然其實是我們有看到成效了可是看到這個成效我們要再繼續打黃打下去嗎這個打下去的時候對整個市場有多大的一個影響我們用這個四五年前我們國人平均在"},{"start":11866.029,"end":11887.421,"text":"幾歲的時候我們通常是在30歲到35歲我們從年增中心拿到的這一個資料就是說在15年前我們第一次買房子大概是年齡層落在30到3515年後我們其實是放在40到45部長你的第一棟房子幾歲買的"},{"start":11889.531,"end":11891.372,"text":"像這樣的一個情形的時候,我們怎麼樣來看待這個新清安呢?"},{"start":11909.822,"end":11935.701,"text":"這個近五年35歲以下的年輕的那個黃袋主的一個申請的狀況我們有看到非常的明確我們從中信黃屋的一個資料裡頭黃價的一個飆升許多購屋的民眾其實擔憂就是說我現在如果不買的話未來可能會更貴就是因為這樣的一個趨勢這樣的一個心理因素所以造成我們推了新清安出來所以在這近五年我們的首購主"},{"start":11938.683,"end":11967.53,"text":"這個一直持續在增加甚至在35歲裡頭的青年貸款增加了五成這個五成是一個非常可怕可怕的一個數字那當然我們也是非常高興說有這麼多年輕人願意來買房子可是他們買的房子就是背負了在這裡在這個身上所以我剛才一直在請教你說對於這個新青安有沒有什麼比較好的一個看法那到今年二月底"},{"start":11967.99,"end":11972.693,"text":"新青岸已經累計10萬戶以上了他金額達到8224億這個金額達到8224億我想這個部長你手上也有一些資料那所以"},{"start":11984.94,"end":12011.053,"text":"這個我們一直在推推新清安它有很多讓人家詬病的就是說它一方面帶動了房貸的一個購物的需求可是它也把房價推高了那是不是我們可以有效的去阻止就是說它傳出它的轉租還有人頭戶的一個違規的情形你十萬多戶你才找到了一千多一千多的一個違規的情形"},{"start":12012.253,"end":12027.82,"text":"這個是不是就是說財政部的持續的一個加長查核的一個工作還有就是說不應該過度的去設限就是民眾申請新清安的貸款的一個水位因為你這個政策如果"},{"start":12028.28,"end":12054.842,"text":"如果就是說提前落日的話是不是央行跟你有財政部有想到什麼樣信用管制的一個措施可以相輔相成讓真正的有需要的年輕人他可以他可以就是買到房子而不是那麼大的一個負擔所以部長會後提供這些資料給我我相信你們一定有一套完整的一個設施就是說我們希望就是說"},{"start":12055.683,"end":12071.404,"text":"土銀跟台銀是乘坐最多這個親安業務的銀行這兩坡的查核我們其實才追回600多件的一個違規的一個貸款那第三坡的查核這個成效如何"},{"start":12072.606,"end":12090.807,"text":"這個我覺得我們也有看到一些成效啦那當然就是說這個超過一千件的那個舊的這個新清安違規的案件其實也被我們追回來了那我想這個查緝是有效的就是說利用人頭啦還是利用轉租出去"},{"start":12091.468,"end":12111.871,"text":"那治標跟治本我們怎麼來看它不可以否認就是說新青安政策的確幫助了很多年輕人購屋跟成家可是我們希望財政部持續加強這個查核的工作如果在明年專案結束以前你們不應該限縮民眾申請新青安的那個貸款的水位這個"},{"start":12113.132,"end":12130.971,"text":"好像是如果你們把他緊縮了這形同就是政策是提前落日所以我想你要跟央行財政部我們密切的相輔相成我們認真的去執行新青安的一個政策的目標所以這個也是我想在這裡本席對財政部的一個要求"},{"start":12134.835,"end":12149.305,"text":"接著我想跟這個部長再討論一下這個中租抵合加強租賃公司的年代金流的穿透式的一個管理那也請我們的第一金控第一金控也一起接受那個"},{"start":12150.726,"end":12165.908,"text":"被尋這個3月11號那個中租抵合中租抵合就是也跟那個申請那個年代案等於是向宣布再一次向義營等銀行銀行團年代的65億"},{"start":12170.137,"end":12190.152,"text":"這個65億部長還是回到你要怎麼還換這65億會不會透過就是中租體合會不會透過這些子公司的金流轉出來而流到皇室還是先買後戶先買後戶的這些地方你們有沒有一套完整的方式呢"},{"start":12191.79,"end":12207.963,"text":"先跟會員報告對於有關融資公司裡面的授信金管會已經設了四道防線第一個要追蹤資金的流向融資的用途作為不動產的必須要遵守央行的信用管制"},{"start":12208.223,"end":12237.093,"text":"另外一個納入銀行不動產的重量管制至於其他的融資授信部門要求融資公司要簽竊結禁止再融資給建商那麼這個部分我們各個公股銀行都必須要遵循這個金管會的一些規範你有沒有穿透事業管理部長在上一個會期我有提到的就是用信託方式的一個方法去辦理住任公司授信案的可行性可是你這個報告交出來了沒有"},{"start":12237.893,"end":12262.683,"text":"用信託的方式誰可以回答我這個授信的方式還沒就我們的租賃公司我們用信託的方式辦理租賃公司的一個授信案的可行性的一個評估那我想委員這樣的要求我們會再提好嗎好那就這樣那易營的那個就不用說明了這樣好易營要不要回答"},{"start":12264.952,"end":12274.028,"text":"報告委員 我們這次主辦的這個連帶案主要是作為還過去的舊竊而且我們也 它也有竊竊就是不可以用以BMP就是缺乏 幾個連帶銀行"},{"start":12276.437,"end":12303.909,"text":"除了你是主辦銀行還有幾個年代銀行我們目前還在年代的一個審核之中那參代銀行目前的核准還沒有下來所以我想這個穿透式的管理還是要提醒你我想就是針對的就是適用的一個法規最主要他要這個當地跨境的一個法規還有銀行法還有洗錢防治法這個要特別注意如果人家真的就是一個正派經營的公司"},{"start":12304.409,"end":12327.725,"text":"我們也不要一直給他污名化那我們就讓他是在一個非常就是合格的方式來借貸這些錢可是問題就是說謊言這麼多的一個這個案例太多了所以我還是希望就是就是聯貸的銀行要特別的小心一點好謝謝委員謝謝主席謝謝我們拉霍元 趙偉接下來我們請接下來我們請張祺凱委員"},{"start":12355.043,"end":12357.504,"text":"昨天晚上很多人在討論這一則新聞說你們高雄國稅局辦了一個稅務突擊隊結果中獎的很多都是姓彭的他們就戲稱在網路上很多朋友都叫他說都彭家軍"},{"start":12385.61,"end":12401.941,"text":"結果後來檢調進去追檢調進去查後來發現是一個誠信的被告他用遊戲系統的一個漏洞因為漏洞他建立了很多賬號所以他連線59萬次導致你們52個獎項裡面他拿走了44個"},{"start":12410.677,"end":12433.292,"text":"那現在檢調啊 最近這幾天用妨害電腦使用罪來起訴他了今天我們要討論 財政部辦的抽獎一定都有公信力嘛 對不對一定是公平的嘛去年那個銀端發票那個事情已經引起很多討論了為什麼又發生這樣的事情"},{"start":12434.008,"end":12447.64,"text":"跟委員報告,您剛剛所提的這個彭家軍這個並不是高雄國稅局辦的,是高雄市稅捐基徵處辦的稅捐基徵處?對,不是我們高雄國稅局辦的稅捐基徵處辦的?對,不是高雄國稅局後來你們了解,到底為什麼會出這個問題?"},{"start":12455.586,"end":12477.233,"text":"我們大概有一些初步了解大概也就是跟我們就是也是剛剛委員所講的第一個就是他的通關有些就有一些駭客的入侵我昨天大概看到也是一些駭客的入侵然後這個造成一些重複中獎那最後的獎項重複的部分也沒有給然後高雄市稅捐處就會向廠商來求償現在最大問題有兩個啦"},{"start":12481.294,"end":12505.385,"text":"別的當然 大家對政府有信心嘛如果是政府辦的 它應該要是公平的嘛結果現在發現它是不公平的那第二個 科技一直在進步啊不管它是不是作弊啦看起來被攻破的 或者是它用它的方式去造成不公平的 機率越來越大嘛不只是這個案子 去年 雲端發表那個也是雲端發表是台北國際集辦的對不對"},{"start":12508.844,"end":12531.696,"text":"沒有錯 上次那個是台北國稅局辦的上次那個也是因為重複都是幾個人後來查的結果是因為我上次有請那個部長你們要查清楚你們不要再查出來沒有法律上的問題可是你們又罰了那個承包的廠商"},{"start":12533.339,"end":12548.233,"text":"跟委員逐一逐一的說明台北國稅局在辦的去年辦的雲端種樹區這個部分我們第一個就是已經清查過跟我們國稅局跟財政部所屬的所有同仁"},{"start":12548.853,"end":12575.355,"text":"以及三清等以內我們都查過都沒有關聯這些中獎都沒有關聯連廠商的相關的廠商也都沒有關聯都沒有內部的人第二個我們也了解原因在哪裡是因為他在這個城市裡面把權重做了一些不合一些調整以至於有一些結果增高他的中獎率設計本身就有問題這個設計當然可能超出一般的通常是就是說我如果丟很多大小我機率提高而不能夠去調整權重一個這樣跟一般的常識不一樣"},{"start":12577.256,"end":12605.947,"text":"那這個部分呢我們已經處理第一個就是我們送檢調去查送調查局去查那他調查局初步查他已經查完以後覺得沒有不法沒有不法但是我們對於廠商依然請求民事的賠償現在在民事上面我們會去追溯他這個部分因為這個確實對於財政部也好國稅局也好都造成一些大家的一些信用上的一些損害這個部分我們已經向民事提起求償了"},{"start":12606.907,"end":12628.603,"text":"這個部分我們一定在做,而未來呢,我們對作為這種所謂的網路抽獎要特別謹慎,有想像高雄市追尋處這個事情就是被人家用,就是您講的科技的進步他用某種方式來突破你的某些點而造成一些不公平以及社會認為對於對政府的一個形象的破壞,就是不能改變法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律法律"},{"start":12632.423,"end":12652.575,"text":"前面去清查然後去建立一個標準的晝夜程序出來嗎標準SOP要不然的話你看你高雄這個事情後來就罰了廠商那可是現在人民看到是什麼你的設計明明就是有問題嘛對不對你去加權所以導致了不公平嘛現在就是政府我今天的訴求有兩個啦有兩個事實上也是全民的訴求第一個"},{"start":12653.596,"end":12679.7,"text":"政府辦的 特別是財政部辦的一定是要公平不要變成是一個不公平的抽獎好不好是的 一定是公平公開對 第二更重要的 複印你剛才說的前面去清查然後以後要建立一個機制出來一定要落實是公平的好不好是的 是的我問一個民眾很關心的問題最近你們做一個新的規定你們說以後如果出國去買到山寨版"},{"start":12681.041,"end":12707.067,"text":"山寨板小額免罰這個規定六月開始就要取消了以前說小額不罰嘛對不對現在不只要沒入喔就是說你如果買到山寨板你被我查到了不只沒收要罰三倍的這個價錢當然要打擊這個山寨板這個我們是肯定的可是現在碰到兩個大問題第一 民眾就反映啊買的時候 我怎麼知道是真的假的對不對然後第二個 他們也挑戰你們啊"},{"start":12711.243,"end":12716.329,"text":"你們的海關你們有辦法去檢測那個東西是真的還是假的嗎有辦法做到嗎"},{"start":12728.704,"end":12745.941,"text":"對一般的旅客絕對跟沒有影響跟以往都一樣那海關的確沒有辦法判定他是不是反冒品所以我們會請權利人來做鑑定那權利人不來主張的話等於是放棄他的權利權利人主張確定那是反冒品的海關才會處理"},{"start":12748.277,"end":12775.707,"text":"你所謂權利人的說我如果去買一個精品就是精品店精品的這個廠商他們本身要鑑定就對了對所以是舉例另外很多人問到的就是請問很多人到日本去藥妝店買東西嘛對不對是那那個不在這次的這個範圍裡面對不對沒有這個範圍那不是仿冒品我去買了很多東西你們不會所以藥妝沒有問題藥妝我們這個規定是仿冒品那藥妝店的如果是正品"},{"start":12777.453,"end":12792.87,"text":"證品的話是沒有問題不會有這個問題最後做一個建議好不好因為很多人去買當然他如果去買山寨品本來就應該要被罰錢要沒入啦可是如果他能夠他不是故意的你如果去買的時候我認為他是真的嘛對不對"},{"start":12793.991,"end":12810.203,"text":"那我如果能夠提出一個證明,譬如說不管是我的發票,或者是我的刷卡,那確實是跟真品的價格一樣,這個可不可以就不要罰?包委,我們現在旅客的部分依照海關氣勢條例39條的規定就只有末日而已,他不會處罰。"},{"start":12811.916,"end":12812.797,"text":"主席在這裡宣布我們現場現在開放用餐"},{"start":12841.035,"end":12842.377,"text":"好大家邊用餐請部長"},{"start":12850.697,"end":12860.401,"text":"委員好謝謝部長我今天問題分成三大塊雖然有幾位委員已經關注過但是我還是請你簡答因為今天這些問題都是社會關注的重大議題第一個問題就是川普將在重申4月2號開始要對所有的貿易夥伴開始徵收對等的關稅"},{"start":12876.949,"end":12893.483,"text":"跟過去過去大家對外猜測的不太一樣我們本來以為說他會針對不同級距分類幾個國家會有不同的關稅但是果然川普他是一個以自己國家美國優先但是對美國來說無可厚非他就"},{"start":12894.224,"end":12897.807,"text":"每一個國家一個一個談當然這個對於美國來說是最有利的但是從美國這邊看到他們計算出來我們對美的貿易順差達到700多億這是美國的數字當然我們的數字好像600多有一些不一樣但這無所謂"},{"start":12914.159,"end":12939.633,"text":"也就是說結論就是說我們對於關稅大戰我們台灣很難置身事外那當然我們整個行政院包括賴總統也宣布從4月2號開始我們會組成半導體的民主供應鏈還有到卓院長的四大戰略的備戰無論是幾個重要的措施提到要確保科技領先等等爭取最有利的條件"},{"start":12941.714,"end":12956.302,"text":"這個我們看到無論是從現在是宣示性的或者是未來要做的都還沒有實現但是都還在具體的進行當中但是重點就是說關稅是馬上就要面臨的問題"},{"start":12957.483,"end":12977.51,"text":"就我們針對於我們要保持我們科技的領先啦這都是現在進行是未來是這當然是持續要做但是對於川普跟我們的談判這是馬上就要面臨的問題所以川普也曾經說過除了關稅之外我們一月稅的稅率是貿易障礙所以在這一塊我們到底有什麼樣具體的做法"},{"start":12982.861,"end":13001.733,"text":"我們是不是也會調低其他特定產品的關稅或營業稅譬如說我們現在黃豆小麥玉米馬上就是關稅的調降馬上就到了一個期限那我們是不是會持續維持所以除了農產品黃豆小麥玉米之外我們未來"},{"start":13003.055,"end":13014.713,"text":"應付或者是面對美國的關稅他提出來營業稅是貿易障礙那我們有沒有其他的措施要提出來有沒有什麼其他的備案或答案"},{"start":13016.455,"end":13027.718,"text":"謝謝委員,對於3月即將到期,也就是有相關的那個所謂的貨物稅、營業稅以及關稅那是大宗物資的相關進口的一些稅,那個是基於穩定國內的物價的一個工作,目的是這樣那在3月底即將接鄰之前,下個禮拜行政院的物價督導小組會再開會,穩定物價小組會開會"},{"start":13040.442,"end":13045.989,"text":"那這個部分會整個評估所有的情勢那你的評估方向是什麼還會繼續延期這個部分第一個國發會農業部經濟部都會提出相關市場上的一些的我想也應該會評估到跟美國的貿易談判吧"},{"start":13056.521,"end":13080.896,"text":"這一定是貿易的一個部分我想這是先這個部分那第二個就是在於川普所提出來的對等關稅就是剛剛委員所提到也很關切的這個部分那對等關稅他當然提到說他4月1號、4月2號要做可是問題是對等關稅他所提出來的那個概念是不是跟我們自己所想像的那沒關係不管他的概念是什麼我們總是有幾套劇本沒有錯所以呢我們"},{"start":13081.917,"end":13087.662,"text":"政府部門其實都已經持續的在做這個工作第一個就是我們會去盤點像以財政部來說我們去盤點從美國進口的我們的前排序的進口值最大的什麼樣的貨品還有我們出口到美國的"},{"start":13098.07,"end":13113.478,"text":"最大的貨品的數量是什麼然後我的相對的關稅是多少這個部分我們都有去做盤點第二個就是說如果說他調高關稅在某一項貨品的部分那對我們的產業是哪一些產業會受影響以及我們相對應應的措施這個部分行政院都已經和我們相關部會"},{"start":13118.7,"end":13133.819,"text":"所以也就是說其實你們手邊我們都在做這個所以你手邊已經有一大項目要調低關稅或是在營業稅的部分他認為是貿易障礙的部分你可能也會調降這個部分大家都還在都在這個什麼時候會有答案出來部長"},{"start":13135.821,"end":13162.602,"text":"當然第一個他要確認這個項目這個項目跟到稅率的時候那我們的對應的方式要出來對不對那另外經濟部也跟相關的產業在持續的交談不講因為我今天時間不多我不是要跟你吵架我沒有要吵架我只是要提醒你因為調降無論是關稅或營業稅對台灣的其他產業是勢必會有一定的衝擊不過你這些措施我都尊重但是也勢必要跟民間做最多的溝通謝謝一定會跟民間做溝通"},{"start":13164.924,"end":13187.331,"text":"謝謝部長我有第二個問題是屬於受僱醫師的權益的問題相關我們現在熱了減緩包括基層醫療院所的職業環境之前衛福部就有提出希望我們現在醫生都非常的辛苦留住醫生在台灣所以財政部也宣布了113年度執行業務"},{"start":13188.712,"end":13197.28,"text":"的醫生的費用的標準我們調高了掛號費的收入跟費用率等等但是現在醫師的職業樣態其實非常多元有一種是叫開業的職業醫生他的所得叫做業務的所得"},{"start":13203.966,"end":13222.611,"text":"另外一塊就是受雇醫生譬如說是在我們教協醫院在我們聯合醫院他是拿的是薪水薪資所得那這樣子的做法就是我目前提高執行業務所得的費用對於其他受雇醫師而言就是很不公平"},{"start":13223.531,"end":13241.588,"text":"其實現在我們都希望無論是教學醫院或者是基層醫院或是聯合醫院我們當然希望是分級醫療無論是自己開診所的醫師也好每一種我們都有足夠的醫師讓我們的病人針對不同的需求不是希望大家都出來開業"},{"start":13243.41,"end":13270.618,"text":"目前的做法會造成很多受僱醫生覺得說不公平我反而要繳的稅率多我領的薪水本來就沒有自己開業的醫生多那現在就自己開業的醫生好像我們調高他們的標準他們繳的稅率也比較低所以很多人擔心但醫界有一種傳聞那倒不如自己出來開業或實質我跟朋友和我開業事實上我還是他受僱但是我繳的稅率就不用這麼多"},{"start":13271.818,"end":13299.633,"text":"我講的例子當然不是很多但是有人有這樣子的心態所以我要提出來的問題是我們都很感謝台灣的醫師留在台灣不管你是受僱或是自己開業那我覺得就是說為了要讓醫師有更好的付稅環境而不是只有照顧到受僱就是說自己開業的醫生的匯率所以如何調和我們現在受僱醫生的稅制是我今天提出來的重點"},{"start":13300.413,"end":13326.633,"text":"就是說我們如何有更多的誘因留住醫師不管你是自己出來開業或者是你即便是留在最基層的診所聯合醫院 教學醫院我們都希望有同等的環境我們在每一個區塊才都有不同的醫生大家都跑去開業 真正需要開刀的時候我們找不到一般的醫師在教學醫院裡面人力不足這也就變成像現在有空床"},{"start":13327.353,"end":13346.889,"text":"沒有護理員沒有醫師狀況是一樣的所以我們現在我知道部長可能會回覆我說我們沒有辦法讀後某一個節我都知道你的標準答案但是當我們不做的時候我們的現況我們的職業環境就是越來越糟糕所以我希望部長"},{"start":13348.05,"end":13370.169,"text":"可不可以有更多的勇氣慢慢的我們真正面臨解決現在台灣產業它不叫產業它就是醫師我們現在缺醫師的問題所以我們可不可以有更多的勇氣去面對這些賦稅的制度拉到至少平等差不多平等這一塊我希望您可以在兩周之內提出報告可不可以"},{"start":13371.549,"end":13385.783,"text":"謝謝委員提出了某個面向的一些看法那委員這邊這個是大多數醫生群組裡面在討論不平的地方所以我提醒你提出一個報告是不是容許我們一個月好嗎好 謝謝一個月好"},{"start":13387.544,"end":13393.687,"text":"部長第三個問題就是網紅的公司的問題我想最近大家討論非常多只有59秒網紅的稅務的問題引起很多的討論他當然目前他的分認方式比如說他是在國外開賬戶他有網路的平台感謝分認還有點閱獎金付稅訂閱超級感謝粉絲的贊助等等"},{"start":13414.815,"end":13429.412,"text":"它到底屬於境外所得境內所得然後它的那個所得的還有分成很多不同的項目那像之前我們就有建議說新加坡有做出指引問答我們也有說過我們要做指引問答因為這個是屬於一個新型態的"},{"start":13431.895,"end":13449.241,"text":"新經營的方式所以我們到底是用什麼樣的分潤方式就是說它有一定的分潤方式但是指引我們一直沒有做出來所以我要就教於部長就是說我們這個指引到底什麼時候有更明確的答案出來也讓他們有所依循"},{"start":13451.44,"end":13453.201,"text":"因為現在課稅的標準是用個案認定不同的標準也就是裡面有一個一致性但是現在網紅公司越來越多我覺得我們的政府應該有責任跟義務去協助他們"},{"start":13469.446,"end":13489.635,"text":"就是哪些你即便你的帳戶是設在國外的帳戶但是你現在因為你是在國內有一個網路的平台所以它叫做國內所得但是它又有不同的薪資的認定標準所以我覺得我們的指引一定要盡速的出來讓他們不會報錯也不會被罰"},{"start":13494.865,"end":13521.902,"text":"謝謝委員的督促,這個部分我們複稅署已經積極的努力,而且已經有出稿我們在兩個月以內把它完成公告,完成讓大家知道兩個月以內兩個月以內,好,一個月到一個半月,進速加快會進速加快,謝謝委員謝謝李委員,謝謝莊部長,謝謝宋署長也跟朱部長回報一下我剛跑去司法法治委員會,任市長全力支持你們那五個方案,屬於他那兩個部分"},{"start":13524.025,"end":13546.64,"text":"接下來我們有請鄭委員天才質詢鄭委員天才 鄭委員天才不在有請鄭委員鄭前 鄭委員鄭前 鄭委員鄭前不在有請王委員宏威 王宏威 王宏威委員不在有請黃委員國昌 黃委員國昌 黃委員國昌不在有請王委員世堅質詢"},{"start":13560.367,"end":13560.828,"text":"有請莊部長莊部長其實"},{"start":13573.368,"end":13594.003,"text":"唱歌會局到現在你這個半年來啊你的一些表現作為我知道你很努力很認真是重規重矩啦但是我如果形容比較實際一點我認為你是守成有餘開創不足啦簡單講四個字暴殘守缺所以我今天的質詢我要送你"},{"start":13603.032,"end":13629.851,"text":"另外四個字就是與時俱進與時俱進我上次質詢我就講如果財政部你身為部長的職責你是要看好我們的國產看好我們的稅收那我說那其實"},{"start":13631.553,"end":13651.126,"text":"那天在場的國產署長、負稅署長都可以來接替啊甚至連我還提到連101董事長也可以來接替不是嗎所以我要告訴你的就是說你既然身為部長你帶頭"},{"start":13653.376,"end":13665.98,"text":"你的引領的方向跟你帶動的那個精神很重要我簡單講我們現在很多財稅制度應該與時俱進比方說娛樂稅 印花稅汽車關稅 機車貨物稅保健食品關稅這些"},{"start":13678.922,"end":13701.105,"text":"我們兩三個會期都在跟你討論那並不是說那你就一定當下你就必須怎麼訂出怎麼樣的改進方式可是談了三個會期耶 天啊你至少訂個time table嘛說那我們現在研究的進展的怎麼樣"},{"start":13702.352,"end":13720.389,"text":"沒有所以這一個部分我希望你能夠聽進去我一項一項會來跟你討論這個事情我先從這個才化法才化法我們卓院長事實上在3月12號復印沒通過以後"},{"start":13722.611,"end":13740.75,"text":"左院長就說他會來提新的版本前幾天啦 左院長在總質詢的時候接受總質詢的時候他也答覆說才化法會有新版本所以這個部分莊部長我要請問你什麼時候提出來這個新的版本"},{"start":13741.721,"end":13762.917,"text":"好跟委員報告我想委員剛剛的一些免利跟指教我都會接受如果有更適合的人來接我都樂意交棒我想跟委員報告第二個就是您剛剛提到幾個法第一個娛樂稅法我們已經送到立法院來了對於印花稅這個部分我們也在徵詢地方政府他們都認為基於財政自主"},{"start":13763.377,"end":13775.747,"text":"他們不贊成廢除這個部分涉及到地方稅我們都要很重要那另外對於關稅食品的關稅食品的保健食品的關稅的部分我們也跟經濟部積極的溝通那經濟部的產發署也有很具體的一個回應第一個就他認為說部分的產品可以分年的降關稅部分產品可以直接降"},{"start":13786.215,"end":13812.73,"text":"那對於哪一些產品的範圍以及降稅的一個怎麼樣分年跟期程這個部分關務署也跟產發署在進一步的溝通你這一個部分對於我們詢問的委員完全沒有答覆我跟你講保健食品關稅看起來貌似很簡單的事情啊這是保健食品這關稅什麼了不起保健食品在我們台灣的市場1700億光"},{"start":13816.761,"end":13834.611,"text":"自己國內生產的就一千一百多億你用高關稅保護了我們的表面上叫做保護國內水準結果它剝削了我們全民的健康保健不是嗎是它會分項目來做該有哪一些項目討論出來你要給我們我們保健食品的關稅我跟你講啦"},{"start":13839.514,"end":13841.796,"text":"日本4%韓國6%對岸中國才8.5%我們台灣30%你認為對嗎台灣30%欸我們現在這個菸酒"},{"start":13855.215,"end":13879.574,"text":"煙酒的稅金才27%要維護我們健康的保健食品竟然高過可能危害我們健康的煙酒27%天啊那我們政府的態度是什麼是那所以剛剛跟委員報告經濟部產發署已經有非常具體的一個回應然後他們也會做後面的項目你把這個回應給我們好不好你一告知"},{"start":13882.256,"end":13906.509,"text":"你幫我告知經濟部跟他們的產發署告訴他們他們所謂的要保護我們國內生技業者、製藥業者、保健食品業者保護產業但是我們國民的健康更要緊國民的健康保健高過產業保護不是嗎"},{"start":13908.181,"end":13923.27,"text":"現在保護的結果你看我們這些生技廠製藥的他不再製藥了不再研發新藥了所以你看我們健保已經這麼艱困之下很多藥原廠藥我們買不到好歹至少這些大廠"},{"start":13924.551,"end":13952.028,"text":"他們趕快來做做學名藥來幫我們解除我們健保的負擔啊顧到我們國人的健康才對啊結果不是有一千多億在高關稅保護之下他們大賺大吃這一塊所以我認為會導致他們不長進而且這也嚴重影響到我們國內需要保健食品"},{"start":13953.154,"end":13975.223,"text":"的同胞們他們的權益嘛好不好對我知道這個部分我們也會轉達產發署然後我們關務署也會跟產發署去聯繫那他已經答應你了他已經有具體的回應那我想這個部分的項目如果能夠更確認的話那就後續可以進行我們後面的作業所以我認為說所以這樣子你在這個我是肯定的有一項"},{"start":13976.57,"end":13992.836,"text":"你在3月6日你們內部有主持一個會議你提到這個財化法劃分那麼你是說這個市權啊就是說財權應該跟市權要有一定的"},{"start":13994.168,"end":14018.506,"text":"調整這個要一致這是對的所以我才說你趕快提出財化法的版本到底我們地方分走多少那就把該分走的這些財權我們也把事務歸給他們讓他們去做你像現在調列出來我希望你們調列多一點像勞動部有好幾項農民保險 農業基礎建設這個"},{"start":14022.488,"end":14047.82,"text":"應該就是你跟農業部趕快商量是不是這部分財權、事權統一錢歸到地方那地方要幫忙做啊內政部的城鎮創生營造勞動部啊依地方人口提供的這些津貼都是啊環境部的這個垃圾調度啊淨零減碳計畫很多他們都可以參與嘛所以財權"},{"start":14049.571,"end":14056.107,"text":"市權要一次等比例這個部分是不是快點落實可不可以"},{"start":14057.751,"end":14084.649,"text":"這個部分會是由行政院跟各部會邀請各部會去做相關的盤點就是各部會有些哪些市權要做什麼調整或者是說經費上或計劃型的補助款如何的一個做一個調整都會在...可是財政說實話主導是你們啦所以應該由你主導啦好不好這一點我希望你注意台南市因為台南也是一個很好的一個指標台南提到說因為市權的轉播"},{"start":14086.99,"end":14114.225,"text":"撥到他們手上他們需要 他們要增加支出273億但是如果照現在能夠分配給他的才163億我想地方政府包括台南高雄甚至其他台中台北大家提出的那財分部趕快收集收集大家對這件事情這調整的怎麼看法好不好我最後問你一個問題喔就是關於汽車關稅啦"},{"start":14115.666,"end":14132.517,"text":"那汽車關稅現在這個我們這麼高關稅我們是降過了以後我們17.5%但是你看喔這幾年來這五年來我們台灣我們不但是全亞洲最高的汽車關稅那我們從美國進口的車輛"},{"start":14133.678,"end":14151.103,"text":"我就以去年來講大概9.4億美金 308億台幣那我們課了他們17.5% 53.9億那我們台灣出口過去那邊的汽車我們大概平均我們抓1億美金好了"},{"start":14153.24,"end":14171.087,"text":"他們收我們2.5關稅才收7750萬所以這一件事情我認為美國一定會來argue川普這種一定會來逃的啦所以這件事情我認為剛好我們適度現在趕快去研究調降汽車關稅"},{"start":14172.327,"end":14188.611,"text":"我們對他們釋出善意一方面加惠到我們國內這個汽車的使用者二方面也讓我們好不容易茁壯起來的國產車它也能夠平行輸入到美國去你的看法呢"},{"start":14190.148,"end":14195.652,"text":"跟委員報告您關心這個有關汽車關稅已經有蠻長的時間了那這個部分涉及到我們國內國產汽車的一個產業的發展以及面臨現在燃油車要轉型到電動車等等因素那經濟部的產發署也都已經做過評估了然後也跟車輛工會裡面也就做過討論"},{"start":14210.183,"end":14215.491,"text":"建議是維持那至於我們銷到美國的車子其實我們銷到它美國如同剛才委員所說的大概是31億的美金而且都是1000cc以下的沙灘車但是美國進口到我國的"},{"start":14227.347,"end":14253.129,"text":"到我國的車輛的總值大到300多億所以是10倍我想這個部分我們其實在關稅如果他提出相關的對等關稅的時候我們會去多方面的考量第一個對國內產業的一個衝擊以及國內有什麼樣的因應的措施目前都在模擬因應模擬方案當中現在不調整反而是衝擊而且部長我最後提醒你"},{"start":14253.729,"end":14272.409,"text":"我們主動調價也可以幫助我們台灣加入CPTPP好不好這是很重要的一個關鍵項目好不好謝謝委員 謝謝與時俱進啦謝謝王委員 謝謝莊部長接下來有請陳委員育真質詢"},{"start":14281.177,"end":14283.307,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長有請莊部長"},{"start":14292.463,"end":14310.309,"text":"總預算通過後我聽到各個部位都在靠參說這個沒有錢那個沒有錢預算被刪到這個沒辦法執行那個沒辦法補助之類的那很多民眾都在問我啦說這個怎麼從來沒有聽到負稅署國稅局出來喊一下說因為沒有錢所以沒有辦法向國人課稅"},{"start":14313.856,"end":14329.183,"text":"就是預算不足很多民眾都在問我啊每個單位都說這個沒錢那個沒錢就是沒有聽到複稅署出來說沒有錢沒辦法課稅啊課稅是法律規定然後我們的複稅署的同仁都比較課苦耐勞就對了課勤課儉你們壓榨他們啊這樣會不會造成霸凌啊確實同仁就是變得有些辛苦啦"},{"start":14338.988,"end":14359.715,"text":"好辛苦你們了好我想請問才化法才化法已經通過了而且經過這個覆議嘛對吧也經過我們在3月12號覆議那根據憲法增修條文的第三條第二項第二款的規定我們二分之一維持原決議你們就要接受行政院這邊行政院長要接受那接受後我剛看到您在這個報告裡頭"},{"start":14361.516,"end":14376.077,"text":"第19頁有講到說你們接著會配合行政院做相關的政策會配合這個政策辦理那請問你這個相關的配套措施開始啟動了沒有"},{"start":14378.083,"end":14386.769,"text":"第一個,財化法其實我們在復議裡面有提到許多自愛難行的部分那立法院已經復議通過了嘛復議就是沒有贊成復議嘛,維持原案那這個部分呢,我想後續會不會以什麼樣的合法合憲的程序在尋求救濟"},{"start":14401.9,"end":14428.877,"text":"那我們跟行政院都還在研議跟討論中那你們現在也應該開始要做相關的研議比如說比如說這個因為現在100現在11現在2025嘛2026的預算已經要開始在開始要3月份以後4月份又開始籌編了嘛相關的先期作業就要開始做了嘛那因應新的這個財化法的通過假設明年要開始實施的話即便你中間可能有一些救濟措施啦那你們也是必須要做準備吧"},{"start":14429.898,"end":14454.75,"text":"有沒有開始做相關的準備呢跟委員報告齊劃寶很重要一個就是說我們在做下一個年度的稅收的一個預估的時候就要計算出要給縣市政府多少錢當然要依照新通過的法令來依法行政那新分配的新的法律規定那接下來就是我怎麼分配給各地方政府我們那天在復議裡有說到就是說第一個先不要反復議說什麼"},{"start":14456.091,"end":14483.596,"text":"你現在新的就是原來的決議通過以後你沒有沒有開始再做按照新的採劃法的這個步驟往前走嗎那現在就是那個第一個他已經把那個分配辦法的授權的規定已經取消掉了所以財政部已經沒有辦法去訂水位的分配辦法沒有辦法訂分配辦法在我們回看到法那就按照我們通過的這個採劃法按照營業稅百分之多少中央百分之多少地方什麼稅百分之多少按照這個來做這個統籌分貨款的分配嘛"},{"start":14483.976,"end":14504.967,"text":"是不是有這樣先把預算這樣開始框下來目前還沒有到算這個部分因為我們還沒有還在那個稅客收入的部分還沒有去做那幾月份可以開始做這樣的因為你們準備的地方也要準備您剛剛提到的是垂直分配就是這個稅的幾%稅的幾%對不對那可是在水平分配的部分我們那天提到第一個很多的公式不明確"},{"start":14506.067,"end":14527.944,"text":"好 你有的分不出去那百分之九十幾的沒有分出去有的百分之幾沒分出去因為它的計算就是這樣子分母跟分子它沒有對應到以致加起來不等於百分之百財政部一向在如果有的時候對法令不明確的時候很多單位如果是政府或民間對政府法令可能有疑義的時候你們也會有一些含釋或解釋嘛你們總是要往前走來"},{"start":14529.725,"end":14549.918,"text":"先給你一個提醒因為現在是三月份那你們在這個過程在籌編明年的預算開始蓋算的時候你就要開始要有一些準備嘛第二個所謂事權跟財權的這個調整嘛那哪一些事權財權的調整我當初在這邊擔任召委也講嘛那實際上行政也要趕快提出來比如說內政部可能覺得說哪些"},{"start":14550.839,"end":14574.245,"text":"哪些權利可能或者事項事項要交給地方辦理嘛應該也要再趕快提出來說在這個行政院院會裡頭提出來說那些相關事項要提出來如果要修法的我們大家也一起來協助嘛那其實你們應該跟地方趕快討論這個現在是計劃型補助款嘛因為我們依法我們這個新的條款通過一般性的補助款這個依法不得降低嘛這個很明確沒問題吧"},{"start":14576.025,"end":14595.627,"text":"這個通過這一條是明確的吧目前法律是這樣規定的是明確的嘛當然依法我們當然都要依法然後明確嘛就計劃型補助款的這個調整方向我們看各部會的計劃型一直增加但是我現在看到有的部會這個到時候主計來我也是會問有的部會已經開始在下公文給各個地方政府如果按照各地方的這個財力這個"},{"start":14597.028,"end":14606.811,"text":"現在很多單位都在下公文說要求地方就要自籌50%這個問題現在事實上已經有在發生了好像在計劃型補助款的部分這個可能你們也要注意一下這個相關的不會在這個部分是不是違法"},{"start":14627.017,"end":14648.87,"text":"因為他違法但這不是你的問題主計那邊我到時候會來請教他所以我也是建議你們既然這個服務域已經維持研究通過趕快就往下要做準備還是要做準備當然你這個中間過程中你的這個水平分配的部分如果各縣市政府有提出來這個也是要盡快我上次主委長也跟我說事實上也許還是有什麼"},{"start":14650.111,"end":14663.888,"text":"可以討論的嘛你們這個動作也要快啊我們從去年6月19、9月提出版本一直沒提出來現在又說可能有版本嘛那不管怎麼樣也是要趕快你們有一些對策要趕快出來大家好在立法院好好討論嘛這樣可以加快嗎"},{"start":14666.021,"end":14694.107,"text":"委員剛剛的許多的說法我們都了解比如說計劃型補助款要怎麼樣那個未來組總會會他會去算那另外就是財務法我們其實3月6號也已經開會了也提出了一些具體的那地方政府也有些意見以及專家學者意見我們都會這個納入以後一起來做參考考量這個要注意的因為時間一直在過去我想請教關務署關務署我們上回去金門考察的時候我們看到你們那個辦公廳是很老舊對吧那改善了沒有啊"},{"start":14694.847,"end":14703.963,"text":"在那麼危險的鋼筋裸露 改善完成了嗎鋼筋裸露的部分 金門港務處已經有派員要去施工了那錢是我們金門縣港務處出的嗎"},{"start":14706.81,"end":14734.532,"text":"當然就靜梅縣補助關路署你們這個有錢單位不要每次都占地方的便宜好啦反正是大家一起做事我們目前還沒有施工已經決定要幫你們做了就對了這個要叮囑請問這個房屋稅的問題這個新制的房屋稅2.07月1號實施去年實施今年5月1號開始要試用2.0它是規定自住住家用的就自住房屋要辦"},{"start":14735.673,"end":14756.741,"text":"戶籍登記嘛 對吧今年3月24號以前的要辦戶籍登記才符合自用住宅 對吧是嗎對 我們是然後你們的規定是說這個認定表可以有三戶吧本人配偶及未成人子你可以有三戶吧但是要設戶籍 對吧好 那你們有考慮到像離島這樣的情形像比如說有台灣人就台灣島的"},{"start":14758.061,"end":14784.503,"text":"民眾他到金門去工作他原來在台灣有房子因為他到金門去工作他金門長期工作 也是公務人員那他就長期必須在這邊買房子那桌休業還是要回到原來他台灣的家嘛原來的房子他戶口只能設在一個地方啊所以在這個情況下那他又是單身請問一下這種情形要怎麼彌補呢包括我們金門鄉親也有啊在金門有房子那在台灣也有原因是因為我們就是必須這樣跑我們在地就是"},{"start":14785.543,"end":14811.017,"text":"就是比較辛苦沒有辦法住在台北就在台北工作住在金門就在就是有時候就會有這樣的困難點反向的時候因為有些機票的這個優惠沒有戶籍在金門也沒有辦法取得所以這個東西這種反應很多在金門地區反應很多有沒有什麼辦法呢可不可以研究一下這部分是不是可以請署長說一下沒有預算也可以徵稅的付稅署"},{"start":14812.697,"end":14832.734,"text":"那是五個國稅局國稅局沒辦法徵稅國稅局跟委員報告 房屋稅差別稅例2.0的新制它在有關自住的部分是參考地價稅因為地價稅本來的規定就是如果你要享受自用住宅的優惠稅率一定要適合戶籍"},{"start":14833.254,"end":14855.368,"text":"我知道我知道 但是現在的確在實行上遇到的實務上因為我們當初做這個我們當然是希望抑制這個炒房不要讓大家到處買房子房價亂漲一通但是事實上的確有人是住在不是說金門啦像連南部也會有這種情形嘛 對吧那你難道要大家都妻離子散嗎戶口全家拆成三戶就對了"},{"start":14856.308,"end":14879.334,"text":"以前金門就是為了這個 很多氣離子散 家破人不亡那個只是戶籍而已啦 不是真的家破人亡是 但是戶籍 那以離島地區來講 如果戶籍沒有在金門買機票就比較貴啊 回家一趟五千塊所以會有遇到這種情形 針對像我們這樣的離島地區有沒有什麼樣的方案可以來想辦法來讓這個情形"},{"start":14881.072,"end":14888.838,"text":"因為這個是全國通用的一個制度其實本島也會有類似這樣的狀況因為你規定社戶級嘛所以是不是還有其他的方法除了社戶級外有沒有其他的方法可以因為這已經是法治了"},{"start":14899.765,"end":14918.866,"text":"沒關係修法我們會來一起來努力嘛但是大家是不是你研究一下有沒有什麼期納方法因為這樣反應的聲音的確是挺多的我想在座說明也很多有啊南部人啊在台北來工作但是也是要回去啊來回也是要有啊重點是要抑制炒房嘛不要讓每個人有一個人擁有太多房子嘛"},{"start":14919.786,"end":14945.672,"text":"那如果說家裡都拆戶籍事實上也違反戶籍法你知道嗎因為你不是真正的戶口設在那個你設在那個你事實上沒有居住在那個地方也是一種虛偽的戶籍的遷徙耶那個戶籍法是要罰錢的啊 罰款啊所以你來想看看沒關係吼我們今天那個時間我們還會再見面想看看有沒有什麼方法這個部分想一下吼那下一題網路的下次再問謝謝"},{"start":14946.972,"end":14948.874,"text":"謝謝陳委員 謝謝莊部長接下來有請洪委員孟凱質詢時間五分鐘主席謝謝 麻煩請莊部長有請莊部長"},{"start":14971.618,"end":14991.325,"text":"委員好部長好部長先請教因為這兩天就有個新聞是針對我們高雄稅捐基增處所辦理的稅務突擊對網路抽獎活動那也被發現是說有15名都是同性的中獎人被網友戲稱說這個是"},{"start":14993.126,"end":15005.213,"text":"彭佳君那當然現在已經確定是說他是一個駭客而且利用遊戲的系統漏洞來讓自己獲獎機率高達84%那想請教"},{"start":15009.434,"end":15027.967,"text":"本席不禁也想到去年軒然大波沸沸揚揚就是我們所謂的雲端種樹去一起集點樹的網路活動也爆發四名的中獎人連續中兩次大獎那那個時候財政部給我們的報告是講還用調查局來背書說沒有涉及不法"},{"start":15028.467,"end":15041.232,"text":"那但是現在看得出來其實在網路世界當時很多委員都持續關心其實要怎麼樣防止駭客的用作弊程式這個才是重點那我想請教一下部長有沒有掌握這個新聞"},{"start":15042.574,"end":15065.325,"text":"是謝謝我知道這個新聞知道他是高雄市的稅捐基增處辦的不是我們國稅局辦的當然這樣的一個情況等於是說一個駭客入侵造成這樣的一個情況就我們所知目前他重複的獎項也都沒有44個獎項也都沒有發送但是委員也提到沒有發送但是他確實就是用作弊的方式造成他中獎的狀況就是有一個這樣的事情發生對不對"},{"start":15066.425,"end":15088.795,"text":"那我也知道委員很重視那上次委員也有特別提醒因為財政部的有關相關的比如說網路報稅啊等等都是這麼多年努力下來所建立出來的公信那這個雲端種數去這個發票的一個中獎有四個人重複中大獎這個部分當然我們不希望有重複再發生這樣的一個事情所以第一個我們就去清查相關的人員都沒有"},{"start":15089.335,"end":15115.142,"text":"涉案我們本身的財政部的所屬的所有的人員包含我們的機構也都沒有然後這個承辦廠商也沒有內部的人但是是因為城市設計上把權重做了一個調整那這個部分權重調整的部分超乎一般人的一般通常的概念應該是說你投的什麼你譬如說你用的雲端發票越多你知道中獎比例越高但是你不能去調這個權重所以這個部分我們移送調查區檢查調查以後他認為是沒有不法"},{"start":15118.663,"end":15133.756,"text":"是沒有不法但是我們會認為這個情況仍然不應該要發生所以我們對於廠商已經在民事上請求相關的追償以及他必須要去澄清我們對廠商追償多少費用追償多少費用2400萬這個部分我們會去做另外我想"},{"start":15140.301,"end":15153.551,"text":"已經提醒對廠商球場2400萬對 已經提起訴訟在去年就提起訴訟然後第二個我覺得委員我了解委員關切就是說日後不能再發生這樣的一個事情所以對於我們認為抽獎"},{"start":15155.7,"end":15172.086,"text":"要以實體抽獎不要就網路抽獎要更加的嚴謹然後要多方的驗證多方的查驗避免有這種情況那像這種駭客入侵有的時候怎麼講道高一尺有時候會磨高一丈這種情況也要怎麼樣的去防弊這點我不苛責財政部因為畢竟財政的專業並不是數位相關專業嘛"},{"start":15177.788,"end":15196.386,"text":"有一些可能道高一尺 魔高一丈我同意啊因為網路世界也好或程序世界日新月異那有沒有跟速發部來做一個溝通了解資安的部分否則政府的系統隨隨便便一個駭客就可以作弊那我們這幾十億洋的速發部在幹嘛"},{"start":15197.594,"end":15213.926,"text":"對 資安的部分那更重要那財政部的尤其像我們的財資中心那個資安的等級是非常高的是非常高的所以未來我們其實應該是盡量不要再用網路抽獎了好 部長所以能夠承諾也向國人"},{"start":15216.199,"end":15233.326,"text":"來確認未來不要再有這種被作弊的事情發生對好部長那另外一個部分當然很多的委員也都關心美國現在川普總統上任兩個月1月20號到現在但是全世界真的都天翻地覆全世界都有很多遊戲規則改變了"},{"start":15234.787,"end":15248.871,"text":"那其中本席就有看到針對美國的財政部長他有講到是說有前15名的這個percentage的國家對美國徵收高關稅叫做骯髒15台灣也在名列其中對不對沒有嗎沒有啊沒有掌握我們台灣傳台灣也被點名骯髒15國傳台灣名列其中有沒有掌握沒有"},{"start":15264.633,"end":15285.83,"text":"沒有看到這個消息 沒有看到這個新聞沒有看到這個新聞 部長這個是非常重視 剛剛新聞還有推播欸從昨天晚上到今天 新聞還有推播川普政府點名骯髒15國入透社報台灣陸列還有"},{"start":15290.523,"end":15296.468,"text":"台灣被美列骯髒15國高關稅名單已經有相關人士點名說我們汽車產業萬萬稅所以他可能會被 結果部長我覺得這"},{"start":15309.228,"end":15327.677,"text":"來部長您可以用麥克風來你再講一遍你說因為早上都在這邊所以我們幕僚作業也沒有辦法及時的讓大家知道但這個是這兩天出來美國那邊財政部長18號接受福斯新聞專訪說骯髒15國是特別關注美國徵收高關稅跟貿易量大的前15%的國家部長麥克風打開啦是我們財政部長沒有掌握"},{"start":15339.834,"end":15352.843,"text":"奇怪我們一起我們在同一艘船上但是我真的要求如果說這樣的話我覺得有點危險因為18號美國財政部長的專訪特別講了而且他講是說"},{"start":15354.608,"end":15380.849,"text":"未來他可能會用美國會用自身的稅率非關稅的貿易壁壘匯率調整等給美國談判的機會而如果這些國家停止非關稅壁壘的情況可以避免被加徵關稅換言之他可能會用加徵關稅來變成是談判的手段我覺得這就要變成是我們未來民進黨政府以及財政部要妥善的因應"},{"start":15382.11,"end":15403.555,"text":"不能等閒視之這個專訪我是有看到但是您剛剛講那個15國陸列的部分所以到現在我們還不知道台灣有沒有被陸列人家都點名了有15個國家我們到現在還不知道台灣有沒有被陸列那更不用講說我們怎麼樣回應怎麼樣反應怎麼樣來啟動我們相關應有的應變措施我們剛剛同事又再去確定有還沒有"},{"start":15409.104,"end":15411.447,"text":"有錄裂15國有 還沒有 我們有錄裂部長是照理講這一件事情不應該由一個在野黨的委員在質詢的時候提醒你"},{"start":15424.642,"end":15438.966,"text":"照理講這件事情應該是財政部我們所有的聰明的大腦們應該早就掌握照理講美國現在兩個月下來川普政府他有一些改變的狀況我們應該都要緊盯這些狀況"},{"start":15442.819,"end":15464.29,"text":"是,我們是一直有在盯這個部長,好,宏偉時間關係方面這個會後給你提供我覺得這可能是連我們召委,連我們不管藍綠委員都非常關注的部長不能狀況外,後續怎麼樣發展我會再利用持續的質詢機會再跟你就教請一定要準備好,也一定要萬全的因應"},{"start":15465.39,"end":15476.819,"text":"我們都一直有在關注然後也做相關的盤點謝謝紅委員 請部長會後也提供給紅委員相關的資訊你們確認一下 謝謝好 接下來有請邱委員自委諮詢謝謝主席 有請財政部莊部長還有兆豐金控董董事長"},{"start":15493.19,"end":15517.18,"text":"趙鋒金控的董董事長為什麼會請趙鋒金控董董事長跟部長因為今天下午央行開兩位都是理事那對於這個今天媒體有報導說第七波打房我們有大型行庫出現這個虧本做房貸會衝擊盈餘也會產生建價的問題"},{"start":15520.982,"end":15545.185,"text":"三大警訊希望央行不要再加碼第八波請問兩位你們下午開會的時候你們立場是怎麼樣請問部長跟委員報告下午會開會然後央行會做充分的一些資料的一些討論資料的一個呈現這邊寫這個銀行高大型行庫的高層是這樣的呼籲"},{"start":15546.516,"end":15553.691,"text":"那是代表說我們國有銀行所有共同的聲音嗎這可能我問一下董董董事長"},{"start":15556.128,"end":15576.824,"text":"您也是理事,您的看法呢?報告委員,我想那是報導上,那應該不是我所,跟我所知道應該是不一樣三個語音存在嗎?應該不會,因為過去這段時間我們對所有這些房地產業者我們總的這個不管是受訓的餘額啦,或者是他的真正的使用狀況這個額度跟餘額都在降低"},{"start":15581.408,"end":15600.199,"text":"所以這個三大警訊不存在?我們利率是增加,利率是上漲的做房貸是虧本的,然後盈餘也會降低沒有沒有,我們利率是上漲,我們利率是調升的所以不存在是三大警訊?我覺得這至少不是我所知道的關乎我相信您專業的判斷跟專業的評估"},{"start":15602.921,"end":15630.395,"text":"好 謝謝我想這個我跟這個總務長說明報告我的感覺這個十幾年來在立法院我看到很多這個我們國有銀行公有行股所有的這個董事長跟總經理都非常兼兼業業所以這個台灣的這個國有銀行可以說是這個另外一種的護國群山是扮演這個台灣經濟穩定的力量"},{"start":15632.308,"end":15654.083,"text":"所以這點是應當值得這個大家去鼓勵會或者去讚賞我碰到很多這個神祖堂戶的所有的這個董事長跟總經理包括台灣監控林董事長包括當然這個董內斌董事長第一監控邱瑞琴董事長"},{"start":15656.874,"end":15672.114,"text":"包括華人銀行黃黃總經理和合庫的民營衛冒董事長蘇佐敦總經理還有張營、胡光華董事長跟周總經理這一過程我都有跟他們互動民意代表會接受民眾的陳情"},{"start":15673.345,"end":15700.094,"text":"民眾發生問題他們沒有視他管道我們做一個平台我們很樂意去協助問題但最重要的是說我們這個省屬銀行的這些不管是董事長或者是總經理都非常親民非常了解這民眾的需求所以這個台灣省屬銀行是金融界的模範生之外也是扮演台灣經濟穩定的最重要的力量您同意嗎有錯"},{"start":15702.83,"end":15723.806,"text":"反過來說呢 台灣對台灣經濟最不穩定的亂源是來自哪裡來自於這裡這裡來自於立法院 您同意嗎這個沒有辦法置評會後我們再討論我認為是這樣子 發臨五百萬改才發完五百萬修 創咖咪咪冒冒"},{"start":15733.161,"end":15757.398,"text":"國家財政距離 國家財政穩定 都受到一些影響這是台灣經濟最大的威脅跟亂演Here Here Here講到這個 我都滿肚子火我們希望在這個最穩定的亂演之中 扮演一些穩定的力量好 我請台北金融大樓股運有限公司 賈董事長"},{"start":15758.732,"end":15785.148,"text":"台灣鷹酒鼓勇修容師 湯董次長請 請阿董跟湯董董事長 我要請教 這個去年的EPS多少去年的EPS多少您好 是 我們是 ELSE算42024的EPS多少4EPS4啊"},{"start":15786.448,"end":15810.688,"text":"你確定?ELTS是1.75,對不起EPS是4啊?1.75,抱歉4跟1.75差蠻多的耶好,抱歉如果你可以一下子重複到4,你可以得諾貝爾經濟學獎是嘛齁,你看,2025在你主任之下1.75,你剛剛也講錯了我是你的話來...跟你的話,你聽說是1.75"},{"start":15813.208,"end":15839.483,"text":"那1.75是比1.51還好就是說你上任之後這個你什麼時候接任的9月9月好這個去年2023是1.51你到你接任之後1.752025的時候呢您就是今年您的期許呢我的期許啊我的期許就是越來越好就是要就是要打破就是那個2024的紀錄達到4"},{"start":15844.436,"end":15866.324,"text":"一二就好啦,我就對你覺得非常感謝,而且對你非常肯定好,謝謝,謝謝蔣董事長接著請教一下湯董事長董事長,這個我一樣的問題請教你啊這個菸酒公司有它的問題,你覺得在你上任之後,必須要最急迫解決的問題是什麼?"},{"start":15868.004,"end":15896.611,"text":"加熱源要通過加熱源要通過加熱源要通過不是我的業務是衛環委員會衛福部的這個部分每個人都有不同的看法那你的EPS你的績效去年的EPS多少大概一塊錢去年一塊錢一塊錢那你上任之後你覺得你今年的目標呢向上提升也是要到市是不是"},{"start":15898.101,"end":15904.486,"text":"這個是我們的目標你還是可以得到諾貝爾經濟學獎最後一個30秒的問題謝謝 謝謝兩位董事長這個關務署關務的檢查實務我們港口機場都是關務人員 對不對"},{"start":15918.106,"end":15941.38,"text":"都是公務人員?機場?是有公務人員,我們在公務人員大概配置多少?比方說桃園機場,配置多少公務人員?台北關是一千四百多名員工,那機場的部分他就一個機查組那邊,一個組應該四五十個左右吧四五十個,還有輪班對不對?"},{"start":15941.98,"end":15966.934,"text":"是好先這樣子我們有藍色通道我知道紅綠線通關再給我28秒有紅跟綠對不對是大部分都是走綠對不對是少部分是走好那麼多頻繁出入的旅客當中你們怎麼知道他所攜帶的這些東西是不是超過海關的容量"},{"start":15967.95,"end":15991.82,"text":"或者海關的許可你們怎麼去了解我們有風險管理的一個機制對於每一個旅客我們都有一些管控的風險的一些我親身經驗很多通過之後這些公務人員也沒有特別去關心也沒有特別去看大家都走出去很自然的那公務人員有時候他們在討論國政還是討論什麼你們的業務什麼好像沒有"},{"start":15996.052,"end":16013.75,"text":"很認真的去執行每一個這個通關的旅客他們是不是有攜帶過量的這個東西跟委員報告您的拖運行李在通關的時候其實在地下室都已經經過S光檢查不是啊那如果是手提的呢手提的我們會看狀況去處理是"},{"start":16016.687,"end":16038.865,"text":"所以還是你要參考我參考這個日本日本他們在最後一線這個關稅床這個關物的部分是很謹慎的幾乎每個人都要把他的手機行李拿出來看他會問你這個有沒有帶什麼東西都會去了解是但我方相對呀不是說我們做的不好相對的稍微比較輕鬆一點"},{"start":16042.384,"end":16058.256,"text":"我覺得關乎這個很重要是不是要稍微把這個輕鬆度把它降低把這個嚴謹度再加強好的謝謝邱委員謝謝接著我們請陳培鈺委員好謝謝主席我們讓部長先喝一口水"},{"start":16071.698,"end":16074.086,"text":"好 有請財政部部長好 莊部長"},{"start":16078.959,"end":16103.257,"text":"我也好好謝謝部長喔部長我今天要來問關於離島的問題不過今天的關注的焦點主要在馬祖喔我先跟部長分享一個困境喔就是這幾年來呢海巡在馬祖積極查緝走私那這個相關的議題喔其實會影響到國人的食品安全還有相關的議題所以查緝走私在前線非常的辛苦可是我們都希望這些"},{"start":16104.137,"end":16128.767,"text":"這些商品不要進到台灣那在海巡查走私之後呢相關的扣押品大部分都是需要冷凍倉庫那之前的做法呢是跟連鄉縣政府租用冷凍倉庫一年大概兩百萬那這樣子運行多年來狀況都還不錯不管是海巡或者是跟海關這邊的配合可是呢後來不知道什麼原因"},{"start":16129.587,"end":16148.541,"text":"現在這個租用倉庫的費用已經沒有了然後也已經停止租用所以導致於連江縣也就是在馬祖地區當地的海巡他們做這個查緝走私的動作之後呢相關的扣押品沒有地方擺那但是呢我們知道你們關務署的做法是說請送回基隆關"},{"start":16150.323,"end":16173.541,"text":"部長如果你去過連江你就可以想像這個不是只是把東西打包像宅急便送到基隆關而已這個可能要考慮到交通的問題天氣的問題然後還有跟基隆關這邊聯絡的問題所以下一張所以我們發現現在的問題就是根據關務署的規定海巡扣押的冷藏冷凍品要提前通知基隆關"},{"start":16175.802,"end":16201.433,"text":"來協調艙位的擺放在馬祖當地的特殊狀況遇到的問題就是因為要等候基隆關的協調船班的運輸通知等等這些行政配套我們在前線辛苦的海巡同仁冒著生命危險扣押這些東西可能就會腐壞那部長你可能想說反正是查緝走私扣押壞掉就壞掉了不是的他們後續可能會面對賠償的問題"},{"start":16204.855,"end":16212.773,"text":"所以這個問題其實很影響前線的海巡也好影響海關官務人員的工作狀態也好部長你知道這個狀態嗎"},{"start":16215.259,"end":16243.769,"text":"這個狀態好 我想 第一個我知道那個海關那邊的倉庫原來陳珠的倉庫他已經是 我剛說一年兩百萬本來是有的對 是 那我想這個部分是否可以請關務署署長來做說明好 那因為我時間有限我也要尊重主席是不是你就快速說明如果今天沒有辦法解決我們後續後續繼續在我們辦公室開協調會討論好不好 來好的 跟委員報告這部分應該基隆關跟海巡那部分都有密切在聯繫啦那目前我"},{"start":16245.086,"end":16267.276,"text":"如果有必要的話我們再請委員這邊來召開協調會我們再過去說明一下好 那我跟你說有必要而且我希望不要只是說明因為這一次到了馬祖連江去我是直接聽到第一線基層的工作同仁他們直接跟我們反映他們真的希望有冷凍倉庫櫃擺放這些查緝走私扣押的漁獲商品"},{"start":16267.896,"end":16285.681,"text":"就這麼簡單但是不管是費用的問題不管是中間行政協調的問題我都認為我們可以細緻再討論我們希望可以在一個月內跟你們直接召開討論會議可以嗎好沒有問題好沒有問題那我們會積極召開好謝謝這邊請回好我要一分半我想要請賈董謝謝101的董事長謝謝好部長請回謝謝好謝謝主席"},{"start":16297.11,"end":16318.965,"text":"好 董事長午安 我時間有限董事長我之前來到這個財政委員會跟您討論不算是質詢 跟您討論那個時候我就說101它身為一個非常重要的機關它有可能性可以跟更多的兒少有接觸我目前有相關離島的業務在協助不管是在連江或者是金門那那個時候我們就談到"},{"start":16320.046,"end":16340.303,"text":"怎麼樣透過101的經費跟可能規劃的方案讓我們離島的鄉親尤其是兒少有機會透過101公益資源的協助他們可以直接進到101參觀也好參加活動體驗也好孩子們可以開視野孩子可以體驗到是平常可能沒有機會享受到的可不可以快速回應一下OK"},{"start":16341.104,"end":16354.642,"text":"其實101呢一直以來我們都有跟這個各學校的單位教育單位我們都有配合來董事長拜託離島的部分我們有沒有機會進一步來規劃跟討論可以啊離島的學校我們當然非常歡迎我們一直以來都有配合"},{"start":16356.084,"end":16385.132,"text":"謝謝董事長那我們相關的後續的討論跟規劃我們一起來努力進行我相信台上的主席一定也會認同主席一直都很照顧金門的鄉親好那就拜託董事長好我們後續來規劃跟討論為離島的孩子爭取更多進入101不管是跟您互動或者是跟其他的人員互動或是到高樓看這個景象我們很願意謝謝謝謝董事長謝謝主席謝謝謝謝陳培宇委員謝謝來接著請葉元芝委員"},{"start":16401.573,"end":16402.256,"text":"麻煩請裁判部長 謝謝請莊部長"},{"start":16413.315,"end":16428.404,"text":"剛剛有委員問到美國財政部長自己講的就是說他列了15個骯髒國主要是針對其他國家如果被美國認為有關稅壁壘或者是有一些非關稅的障礙匯率操控等等他們將要來跟15個骯髒國來談判"},{"start":16432.045,"end":16447.525,"text":"那其中有提到說4月2號各國會提到一個數字這個數字就是代表美國認為這些國家應該要有的關稅數字但是美國也說他不會立刻就這樣實施他會來跟這些國家來談"},{"start":16448.746,"end":16465.052,"text":"所以為什麼很多委員會關注這件事情是因為媒體都已經爆成這個樣子了當然我們會很非常關心我們的財政部或相關的財經部會有沒有掌握這個狀況以及有因應之道所以部長你剛剛是說你是剛剛才知道這件事是不是"},{"start":16466.277,"end":16495.857,"text":"委員說明對於美國的相關的關稅的措施其實我們一直都非常緊密的一個關注那對於那一天他對專訪美方財政部長的內容我們也都有看那至於說這個15個國家裡面是不是他也並沒有說是我們剛剛在查詢再去確認並沒有提到台灣是路透社他們是這樣子說所以我覺得這個部分我想應該要進一步的說明其實行政部門都持續非常密切的關注"},{"start":16497.098,"end":16511.99,"text":"所以你的意思是說這15個國家他目前沒有談到台灣那你有確定你是確定沒有還是不確定這15國裡面有沒有台灣是哪一個答案是確定沒有還是不確定有沒有台灣關務署署長再一次的再跟您說明"},{"start":16514.165,"end":16536.914,"text":"包委員他的確有提到15國但是他沒有講15國是哪15國他只是說高關稅的那個報導我都有看到啦我現在是問說財政部掌握的狀況嘛你那個部長剛剛提到就是說沒有講到台灣所以你是很確定這15國沒有台灣還是說你不知道裡面有沒有包括台灣是哪一個不確定嘛所以台灣有可能是在其中嘛有可能嘛好那"},{"start":16537.614,"end":16550.688,"text":"那我現在就是要問說那我們財政部現在因應假設啦當然我們必須要料敵從寬嘛也不是算料敵從寬就是說我們要因應這個狀況假設我們被列為這個15國之一的話那我們現在做的準備是什麼"},{"start":16552.254,"end":16556.439,"text":"相關的準備第一個財政部已經對所有從美國進口或我們出口美國的貨物已經做全部做個盤點而且對這個前20大前30大都做過盤點同時行政院也有一個專案的工作小組對於各種模擬狀況都有去做相關的方案的研定你剛剛說有做盤點那盤點的目的是什麼"},{"start":16575.218,"end":16595.426,"text":"盤點的目的就是了解我們出口到美國的貨品哪一些的出口值是最高的前20前30那從美國進口的又是哪一些貨品它的出口值是在排在前面另外就是相關的稅率美國的稅率跟我們國內的稅率關稅稅率是多少這個都有做盤點盤點完之後所以要做什麼調整"},{"start":16596.286,"end":16613.725,"text":"做完盤點以後接下來我們這個部分相關的部會都有參與行政院的工作小組這個部分持續都在進行我現在在問你嘛你現在只是說有在做有在做我現在問的是盤點完你要做什麼嘛你要做什麼調整嘛"},{"start":16614.966,"end":16625.359,"text":"這個調整的部分要他對應提出我們會再模擬各種方法還有對於我跟妳的對話妳都會回答說我沒有盤整我沒有開會問具體的人都講不出來這當然就會讓人家很擔心"},{"start":16629.324,"end":16652.096,"text":"就是你可能會做很多paperwork可是你有沒有拿出一個實際上的對策出來至少在我的詢答我是聽不到嘛我剛剛沒有聽到你講任何對策出來你只有講說我們有盤點我們有盤點嘛我現在問的是對策部分嘛對策當然我們有各種方案有什麼啊包含經濟部跟相關的產業有進行的座談以及對於產業會遇到的困難你還是沒有講對策"},{"start":16654.577,"end":16675.451,"text":"你從頭到尾就是說我們有盤點我們有座談我們有什麼什麼什麼但是到底對策是什麼你講其實你會讓大家很擔心啦因為你講不出任何一個你只是說我有座談我有盤點然後說你的對策是什麼其實講不出來啊對策我們都有在做那什麼啊 什麼對策嘛我想這個我們的各種小體的詢詢都會在做是秘密不能講是不是還是怕講出來被監督所以不能講"},{"start":16680.555,"end":16706.845,"text":"不是不能講 什麼原因不能講現在問你說對策是什麼為什麼不能講就相關具體的一些相關具體比如說美國對台灣這次做什麼樣的措施我們的對策就會有對策啊你完全都沒有回答到問題全部答非所問那我跟請教一下因為台灣現在大家都在討論說可不可以降貨戶稅美國的汽車要進來台灣的話他可能會先遇到關稅第二個遇到貨戶稅"},{"start":16708.246,"end":16720.293,"text":"那我現在不談關稅我現在講貨物稅為什麼因為我們對於美國的汽車或其他的產品課的貨物稅也會被他視為是其中一個貿易壁壘那財政部有沒有考慮針對貨物稅做一個通盤的檢討因為我自認為貨物稅它"},{"start":16723.755,"end":16739.568,"text":"它是一個非常久以前的稅而且當初是也有一點禦敬於苛是有點奢侈稅的概念就是叫你少買點東西你買這些東西的話我要苛你的稅讓你少買東西可是幾十年來現在工商社會已經完全不一樣了我們現在包括現在針對什麼飲料啊"},{"start":16742.031,"end":16758.332,"text":"然後還有什麼車輛啊水泥啊都有在瞌睡那車輛有很多汽機車現在不是奢侈的東西這可能是大家有的人的必需品像有些人是以這個為工作為生什麼之類所以財政部要不要也將貨物稅做個通盤檢討貨物稅有沒有到底有沒有調降的機會"},{"start":16762.072,"end":16782.307,"text":"謝謝委員的說明貨物稅的部分其實這個部分我們也持續都在做相關的一些檢討那您剛剛提到汽車的部分那汽車的部分我們的貨物稅現在對於老舊車換新車都有貨物稅的一個減徵那另外對於電動車的貨物稅都是免徵也就是說我們"},{"start":16782.907,"end":16810.07,"text":"透過貨物稅的一些相關的一些措施來引導民眾往這個節能減碳這個方向去走所以這個部分目前貨物稅是朝這樣的一個方向在做已經相關的比如說我們最近也會提出來有關的節能電器節能電器的部分它的效率比較能源效率高的部分那貨物稅也可以做一個減增這個部分都一直都在做的但是整體的全面的調降是不可能嘛對不對"},{"start":16810.73,"end":16834.916,"text":"整體全面那當然要看我們也會因應整個社經發展的來做調整譬如說怎麼調整剛剛跟您已經說明了譬如說譬如說我們就以車輛為舉例嘛你的意思是說你要用調降貨物稅引導一些政策嘛譬如說他如果改節能減碳或者是改電動車你就調降貨物稅嘛那我先說整體來說那其他的車輛呢"},{"start":16836.289,"end":16864.022,"text":"什麼車 您說什麼其他的車輛你沒有提到的這些電動車或者是以舊換新以外的其他的車輛其他的車輛當然是你還是要維持貨物稅嘛就是說以這樣的方式來導你還是要維持貨物稅嘛來引導這個消費者的消費取向我剛剛就提到了嘛就是說我認為這個貨物稅其實是一個不合時宜的稅嘛因為它已經它有點奢侈稅的概念嘛有時候我可能我買一台車它不是電動車但是那個也不是什麼奢侈品啊我就是拿來代步啊"},{"start":16864.682,"end":16877.372,"text":"或者是一個機車拿來代鋪啊那個代鋪買一個機車代鋪車稱得上什麼奢侈呢為什麼要去跟他磕碎呢好像要欲盡於磕這已經不符時代的潮流了嘛"},{"start":16879.455,"end":16906.202,"text":"貨物稅並不是奢侈稅的概念有點那個概念啦有點那個概念早期的啦就早期那個時候是這樣跟娛樂稅一樣嘛就是叫你早做一些娛樂所以欲進於科所以現在所以看電影也要科稅去看藝文活動也要科稅叫你最好不要去以前是這樣但現在不是這樣嘛現在是鼓勵你做藝文活動我們文化部還編列預算鼓勵你去啊結果鼓勵你去做這個動作然後你做了之後我還要跟你科稅"},{"start":16907.502,"end":16918.712,"text":"這個是自相矛盾的稅啊我講的是這件事情啊對 娛樂稅我們已經提出那個修正版本了是OK 好 謝謝謝謝葉元之委員 謝謝接著我們請陳冠廷委員主席麻煩請部長請莊部長"},{"start":16942.217,"end":16949.385,"text":"委員好部長好部長我們承接剛才王世堅委員有提到的關於保健食品的部分"},{"start":16950.322,"end":16971.851,"text":"那我在辦公室裡面研究當初的稅率是我們加入世界貿易組織時候大概那個時期到現在大概是30%左右30%左右的保健食品如同幾位委員提到的它是高於世界各國從日本對進口保健食品的關稅14.5%美國6.4%韓國8%"},{"start":16976.213,"end":17000.534,"text":"連中國都是8.5%那這樣子比較起來我們台灣的這樣子的課稅30%的話是相對高的那我們希望說它能夠降低的比例其實是有幾個部分有幾個面向第一個當然是針對消費者我們希望說在健康食品上面能夠讓消費者能夠有更多的餘裕那第二部分就是比較於這些菸酒"},{"start":17001.415,"end":17015.952,"text":"這些稅率來比較的話反而保健食品會更高這也是不符合這個邏輯的第三點我覺得也很重要就是說現在我們的貿易壁壘我們當然是希望給世界一個很好的印象"},{"start":17016.673,"end":17036.395,"text":"就是說我們願意把這些壁壘降低來去做為未來其他的一些貨品服務能夠有更多這個空間的一個做法這也是一個政府能夠去做做這個negotiation的一個很重要的一個部分部長你對這些有什麼看法"},{"start":17037.836,"end":17067.048,"text":"是的謝謝委員對於保健食品的關稅目前是30%那當然對於關稅它涉及的層面是很廣的因為它要考量到產業的發展另外也要考慮到消費者的權益之間的橫貧性那對於這個保健食品的關稅我們也多次跟產業發展署這邊還有跟經濟部這邊做密切的聯繫目前來說對於民眾比較關切像那種定季的或是那個膠囊狀的這個保健食品"},{"start":17067.848,"end":17087.703,"text":"那產發署已經有一些相關的回應的一個意見他認為可以比如說國內業者主要生產的項目可以用分階段的分年式的來做降稅那對於就是國內比較沒有做不是國內主要生產的話或者這部分呢也可以直接做調降"},{"start":17088.604,"end":17100.471,"text":"但是這些項目到底它的範圍是到哪裡哪一些的項目要明確以及它分年降稅的年期跟怎麼樣的降稅這部分我們也進一步的請產發署這個部分能夠把它更細緻化那如果更細緻化更確認以後並且提出稅市支出評估的話那財政部這邊會做相應的後續的一個法制作業"},{"start":17112.895,"end":17127.533,"text":"我想跟產方署去談之外其實未來也可以跟我們的貿易談判辦公室在談這件事情因為我們主動把這一些關稅降低那就是給我們的政府有更多的談判的空間那對未來的整體的經貿的談判我認為還是有幫助的這一點也希望"},{"start":17130.996,"end":17145.425,"text":"財政部能夠來做協調把這些全部都放在我們談判的一些重要的資產跟籌碼裡面這個是我們必須要談的那再來就是說因為財化法修法的關係現在中央對地方的補助當然是會受到影響"},{"start":17146.405,"end":17163.082,"text":"那主要還是計劃性補助可是有些會暫緩那之前部長你有在記者會有提到說新版的財劃法的執行下如果在維持原來的支出那就必須要舉債有沒有這樣的打算有沒有這樣的規劃"},{"start":17165.264,"end":17188.981,"text":"這個就是說如果說新版的財化法會從中央要多釋出相當大一塊的一個財源而且又規定說一般性補助款不得低於修法前那個年度就是以114年來說是2500億這樣的一個規模對中央的財政來說是等於是說刮去很大一塊那所以施政上就會有一些影響讓他"},{"start":17191.182,"end":17206.965,"text":"沒有辦法再做推展以及部分的計畫沒有辦法延續這是影響很大的那中央財政如果說你要維持原來的支出規模的話原來的支出規模變成就要舉債可是這個部分債務有債務的一個舉債有債務的上限的一個限度"},{"start":17207.405,"end":17226.391,"text":"所以這個部分對於支出怎麼樣去做調整那主計總署也算過了如果說你扣除法律義務支出以外那剩下支出的部分可能必須要做一些調節因為事權你必須要移轉到地方去那中央的部分就要節省支出"},{"start":17227.884,"end":17251.878,"text":"那我最後再補充一下,因為其實現在蠻多問題要問可是時間的關係,超發法已經附議是基本上是否決了那接下來你們有提出一些相關的因應,那相關的因應就是說哪些計畫要留,哪些計畫不留,在已實施的法律之後那我的建議,特別是這個跟我們地方有關的水利計畫必須要做優先考量,因為"},{"start":17252.839,"end":17272.699,"text":"借貨變遷的關係現在有一些地窪的鄉鎮可能會遇到淹水的問題特別是這一兩年的颱風跟雨水蠻多的所以我們希望特別是對我們新港鄉來講很強烈要求通盤檢討水利謝謝謝謝委員謝謝陳冠廷委員接著我們請吳麗華委員"},{"start":17286.529,"end":17290.433,"text":"謝謝主席 再次有請財政部長部長好 您辛苦了今天財政部來做夜報我看到也邀請了很多的公股行庫一起來所以我想跟部長重提原保地貸款這個議題"},{"start":17311.773,"end":17327.504,"text":"正好一年前我在這個質詢台上呢我有先拋磚引玉當時我說期待財政部可以提出更好的解方那當時我的想法是這樣公股帶頭乘坐來做政策性的專案貸款"},{"start":17328.965,"end":17353.403,"text":"那希望也能夠增加誘因好比呢如果願意乘坐元寶地董總的評鑑給予加分又或者參考紐西蘭的做法來為元寶地做一個建架系統跟特定的銀行合作給予部落應有的金融服務那當時呢謝謝我們的財政部長您呢給予我很好的一個回饋回應"},{"start":17354.824,"end":17372.586,"text":"那在五月份的時候您告訴我說我的這個建議很好那如果在相關的建架跟信用保證機制建立完備之後呢就會把它加入指標那我們來看一下關於原保地的建架系統"},{"start":17373.927,"end":17390.436,"text":"這個部分內政部已經有回函提到二零二五年的五月就會定稿那另外呢園民會他也做了一個信用保證的作業要點在二月的時候也已經含尋各公股銀庫"},{"start":17392.057,"end":17395.741,"text":"那在這個部分當時呢台銀的董事長我當時呢呂董事長也特別問他有沒有困難如果要來承接這樣的一個業務董事長回答說我們一定很樂意做"},{"start":17407.091,"end":17431.157,"text":"那又過了一年我在今年呢也順便問了土銀的何董事長那當時他也說只要原住民信用保證基金開始受理這些建樹那土銀一定會努力推動所以我今天來這邊就是想要請教一下部長您對於原保地貸款的相關進度有沒有掌握"},{"start":17432.342,"end":17451.939,"text":"是的謝謝委員我想剛剛您也提到就是原民會其實已經在8月7號去年的8月7號開了原住民保留地貸款信用保證作業要點的一個研商會議那這個目前原民會也正在研議這個相關的作業當中的本也就是信保機制的"},{"start":17452.879,"end":17481.124,"text":"那這個另外內政部也剛剛您提到這原保地建架的相關的一些準則以及東西都在做那我想在相關的條件備據之後那我們的公股行庫呢就可以根據他們的相關的金融法規以及受信的準則來做評估辦理那當然我們也希望就是原民會呢可以讓我們的原民的同胞們可以了解這方面公部門在做的一些努力是"},{"start":17481.724,"end":17496.184,"text":"好那部長事實上金管會的一個加分ESG加分在去年10月就已經回函給我已經列進去了我要講的是說我呢其實在上週"},{"start":17497.466,"end":17516.512,"text":"有召開一個原保地貸款的辦理進度的協調會因為有點卡有點慢而且呢很麻煩的是我們好多的族人呢希望能夠脫離到地下這些所謂的貸款的方式現在詐騙也越來越多那債滾債越來越可怕"},{"start":17519.733,"end":17539.167,"text":"所以他們也都很關心所以我特別開了一個進度的一個協調會那我是跟中加兵委員一起召開啦也希望就是一週內呢能夠有一個回復的一個進度但是我今天來這邊就是要特別拜託部長齁我希望"},{"start":17539.827,"end":17559.386,"text":"部長您可以在一週內可以來提供我一個說明我希望您可以幫忙協調各公股行戶的辦理情形那我也希望說您能夠會同金管會如果是誘因不足再來研議一下獎勵的機制那部長您可以幫個忙嗎"},{"start":17561.095,"end":17566.779,"text":"我想委員這邊也提到就是我們就來照您委員這樣的一個建議我們來做處理非常感謝那謝謝我想在歷史的這樣的一個進程上面我們不會忘記財政部長也不會忘記我們的金管會主委為我們所做的努力更不會忘記各個銀行為我們原住民金融所做的一個邁向一大步的一個前進在這邊我就感謝"},{"start":17589.176,"end":17602.487,"text":"謝謝大家也謝謝主席委員的持續關注好 謝謝好 謝謝吳麗華委員接著我們請徐欣穎委員徐欣穎 徐欣穎不在蔡依依委員蔡依依 蔡依依不在"},{"start":17606.292,"end":17628.029,"text":"今日登記發言的委員均已行答完畢現在進行討論四項及臨時提案之修正共四案請議事人員宣讀今日審查海關進口稅責部分稅責修正草案提案內容及臨時提案共五案預計宣讀時間十分鐘宣讀完畢後即刻進行協商"},{"start":17630.356,"end":17644.566,"text":"我們看法案沒有關的行政官員都可以先行離席好 謝謝各位辛苦了大家安靜的離席 謝謝行政院韓君審議海關進口碎折部分碎折修正查案"},{"start":17645.306,"end":17661.827,"text":"第二章肉籍使用雜稅修正第0203-1919號及第0203-2919號等二項之第二欄稅率修正巴拉圭PY適用之稅率第四章乳製品勤淡天然蜜未列明食用動物產品"},{"start":17662.808,"end":17683.104,"text":"修正第0409 0000號之第二欄稅率修正巴拉圭PY適用之稅率第十一章製粉工業產品麥芽、澱粉、蕨糖、麵筋修正第1101 0010號之第二欄稅率修正巴拉圭PY適用之稅率第十六章肉、魚類、甲"},{"start":17685.595,"end":17701.578,"text":"甲殼類、軟體類其他水產無脊椎動物或昆蟲等之調製品修正第1602、5020號之第二欄稅率修正巴拉圭PY適用之稅率第19章穀類、粉、澱粉或奶之調製食品"},{"start":17702.967,"end":17719.622,"text":"高品類食品修正第1905、9050號之第二藍稅率修正巴拉圭PY適用之稅率第22章飲料、酒類及醋修正第2207、1010號之第二藍稅率修正巴拉圭PY適用之稅率第39章"},{"start":17721.363,"end":17739.05,"text":"塑膠及其製品修正第3923、3000號之第二欄稅率修正巴拉圭PY適用之稅率第61章針織或鉤針織之衣著及服飾附屬品修正第6107、1200號第6108、2200號第6115、9500號及第6115、9600號等四項之第二欄稅率修正巴拉圭PY適用之稅率"},{"start":17749.506,"end":17756.912,"text":"第62章非增值及非勾增值之衣著及服飾附屬品修正第6203.4210號、第6203.4220號、第6204.6210號及第6204.6220號等四項之第二欄稅例"},{"start":17767.2,"end":17787.813,"text":"修正巴拉圭PY適用之稅率第63章其他製成紡織品、組合品、舊衣著及舊紡織品或布修正第6307-9011號之第二欄稅率修正巴拉圭PY適用之稅率第83章雜項杯金屬製品修正第"},{"start":17790.711,"end":17815.45,"text":"8309 9010號之第二欄稅率修正巴拉圭PY適用之稅率第85章電機與設備及其零件錄音機及聲音重放機電視影像聲音紀錄機及重放機以及上述個物之零件及附件修正第8544 3000號之第二欄稅率修正巴拉圭PY適用之稅率宣讀完畢"},{"start":17816.909,"end":17817.029,"text":"臨時提案"},{"start":17822.745,"end":17852.288,"text":"第一案我國歷經三次重要的賦稅改革里程碑分別於民國五十七年七十六年及九十六年由政府邀集專家學者組成賦稅改革委員會針對租稅體制進行深入討論並促成優化賦稅結構提高直接稅佔比強化公平合理的稅制簡化稅政流程提升行政效率等重要成果整體而言平均約每二十年即進行檢討與前瞻性改革"},{"start":17852.868,"end":17872.915,"text":"以適應社會變遷與經濟發展需求查監察院於一百年度專案調查研究報告中明確指出稅客是政府財政收入最穩健且充沛之來源為徵收稅捐是將民眾的私有財產依法做強制移轉故需依賴良好且完整的稅制"},{"start":17874.814,"end":17891.068,"text":"為其徵客法據且隨經濟環境變遷人民權利意識高漲政府每經歷一段時間是需對整體稅制進行通盤的檢討以求建立公平合理的租稅環境有鑒於全國稅客收入以連年實徵數大於預算數"},{"start":17893.67,"end":17922.6,"text":"財政收支劃分法新制三讀此外社會各界對於印花稅、娛樂稅、貨物稅等稅務之事法性與實益性多有檢討聲浪同時全球經濟變遷加劇關稅、碳稅、營業稅及所得稅等稅制改善已成為影響國內民生與經濟發展的關鍵節點此刻正值我國稅制氣需通盤檢討之際原請財政部敦促行政院於半年內緊速重啟召開"},{"start":17923.88,"end":17939.526,"text":"復稅改革委員會廣邀專家學者共同研議以回應國家發展與民眾需求建構合理且健全之租稅體制提案人黃珊珊、林德福、賴世寶第二案"},{"start":17940.68,"end":17963.456,"text":"有禁於財政部新制將房屋租金支出改為特別扣除額額度提高18萬元單身租屋族最高可抵減7000多元家庭租屋族最多12290元然而台灣的租屋黑市仍相當嚴重房客為避免租金調漲甚至是被退租的風險不願冒險得罪房東"},{"start":17964.833,"end":17991.158,"text":"根據民間租屋網站所做的租屋狀況調查有高達54.2%的租屋主因房東拒絕或是害怕遭受房東不利對待而無法使用租金抵稅且尚有20.1%的租屋主甚至不知租金可以申報扣抵所得稅原提案要求財政部於三個月內設置房客抵稅申訴專線或房客抵稅申訴專區"},{"start":17993.258,"end":18005.749,"text":"並於一個月內向立法院財政委員會報告執行進度同時公開至財政部官方網站以便民眾知悉提案人嚴寬恆賴世保林思敏黃珊珊"},{"start":18011.377,"end":18036.243,"text":"第三案按現行加值型及非加值型營業稅法規定每月銷售額超過二十萬元者國稅局將合訂其使用統一發票然此金額乃是按照按財政部民國七十五年七月十二日排財稅第七五二六二五四號函文所訂定已近四十年未調整民國七十五年基本工資為每月"},{"start":18037.043,"end":18059.265,"text":"六千一百五十元同年十一月一日起調整為每月六千九百元而基本時薪最早可追溯至民國八十一年八月十三日當年調整基本工資為每月一萬兩千三百六十五元新增基本時薪為每小時五十一點五元時至今日基本工資已為每月"},{"start":18062.027,"end":18085.782,"text":"28590元基本時薪190元鑒於基本工資及基本時薪已分別調漲了4.65倍及3.69倍再加上水電雙漲原物料成本飆漲租金成本上升勞健保支出增加等再再增加營業成本壓縮小規模營業人的利潤實在苦不堪言原要求財政部考量"},{"start":18086.983,"end":18110.644,"text":"消費者物價指數漲幅,研議調整營業人使用統一發票銷售額標準以體恤小規模營業人的經營困境並於兩個月內向立法院財政委員會提出書面報告提案人羅明才、李燕秀、陳玉珍第四案,鑒於小規模營業人導入行動支付適用營業稅租稅優惠"},{"start":18113.799,"end":18126.508,"text":"1%至今114年底届期然根據台灣網路資訊中心2024台灣網路報告國人行動支付使用率僅33.40%與國發會2025年行動支付普及率達90%的目標有明顯差距"},{"start":18133.137,"end":18151.764,"text":"而且按財政部統計,2023年採用查訂課徵的小規模營業人於50萬家但至今年1月底,只有19,321家導入行動支付該租稅優惠顯然成效有限,原要求財政部研議延長該租稅優惠期限"},{"start":18152.544,"end":18177.043,"text":"並提出精進作為,以增加營業人使用行動支付的意願進而提升行動支付普及率並於兩個月內向立法院財政委員會提出書面報告提案人羅明才、林彥秀、陳玉珍,宣讀完畢好,那麼請問大家對於我們好,我們先進行協商"},{"start":18180.059,"end":18208.383,"text":"來 那麼請問在場委員我們對於行政院行政審議海關進口碎折部分碎折修正草案內容有沒有異議沒有 那我們就照案通過好 接下來我們來處理臨時提案臨時提案有一個試案我們先宣讀一下那請那個部會先看一看好 開始第一案都宣讀過了好 都宣讀過了那麼請問第一案在場委員財政部有沒有什麼要修改的"},{"start":18211.751,"end":18237.633,"text":"有關臨時提案的第一案我們是不是做這樣的一個建議就是倒數的第三案原請財政部於半年內延役重啟召開負稅改革委員會之可行性這樣子的一個調整我不知道是不是請這部分委員也好財政部建議做文字如剛才的說明修正請問這案委員是否同意來黃委員"},{"start":18240.988,"end":18264.671,"text":"謝謝主席 我想 當然副社會署希望說用他們來研議啊早上我質詢的時候部長也有答應要研議但是我希望不是研議完了就沒有下文所以當然希望你們半年之內研議但是這的確是中華民國重要的機制所以我也希望說研議完了就是怎麼樣去籌備20年到期了我們應該要做一些檢討"},{"start":18265.512,"end":18293.09,"text":"那這些法規在至少在這一任的政府應該是在他任內就應該要做這樣的檢討我想這個部分今天能夠留下記錄我希望財政部有下文而不是只是研議沒下文謝謝好謝謝所以呢黃委員呢提醒我們要研議後要落實執行那我們就照修正文字通過好第二項那麼財政部有沒有要修正的意見"},{"start":18294.479,"end":18313.11,"text":"第二案的部分我們有一個建議就是在從倒數第三行的並於一個月內向立法院財政委員會報告執行進度的部分是不是可以刪除我們這個部分就直接提案就是對於委員所提案的在三個月內要設置房客"},{"start":18313.63,"end":18329.484,"text":"抵稅申訴專線或房客抵稅申訴專區這個部分同時也要求公開在財政部的網站以便民眾知悉我想這個部分我們來做那一段的文字我們建議就不需要再另外做執行進度的報告"},{"start":18331.082,"end":18358.608,"text":"意思是就是三個月內就可以完成房客抵稅申請專區房客抵稅申請專區三個月內就可以完成就對了對好那這段就不用了這個我有一點意見因為現在是三月中了五月就要報稅你這個專區你三個月弄好五月都已經報完稅了所以有關宣導的部分抵稅的部分這個部分可能一個月之內要完成完整的宣導"},{"start":18361.405,"end":18379.225,"text":"那這樣謝謝委員我想這樣的提醒我覺得應該是在申報之前啦我們在一個月一個月好不好我們在五月之前就把它完成啦是的一個月好不好這個主席就是不能等到申報完了三個月就來不及了好那我們這樣把時間就縮短"},{"start":18380.216,"end":18398.175,"text":"好,所以呢我們文字修正的原提案要求財政部於一個月內設置房客抵稅申訴專線或房客抵稅申訴專區,到點然後同時公開至財政部官方網站好,那這樣子文字修正後通過,請看第三案"},{"start":18401.667,"end":18428.585,"text":"那請問有文字修正第三案的部分我們是不是做一個建議就在倒數第三行的部分有關研議調整營業人使用統一發票銷售額標準我們後面是不是加知可行性四個字好請問提案委員陳委員研議這個標準不是研議可行性啊是沒有影響的還是要請你研議是小規模營業人的這個這個"},{"start":18431.437,"end":18454.821,"text":"研議調整 調整的可行性啦這意思不是一樣來就研議這個要不要調整這個小隊伍一個人的基本法意思是一樣的啦好 那就遵照委員的文字好 那我們召喚通過 請看第四案第四案有沒有文字修正也是可行性研議可行性研議完全可行"},{"start":18459.266,"end":18476.34,"text":"那這個有關這個臨時提案的第四案我們是不是可以在倒數第三行的部分要求財政部研議延長租稅優惠期限的可行性因為這是涉及到延長這個租稅的優惠期限陳委員您看呢"},{"start":18482.642,"end":18506.895,"text":"延長 延逸這個事情的時候你答案有可能是可以也有可能是不行我們不是要你延逸就一定說要可以那如果不行的原因是什麼我們大家再來檢討不是說我們說怎樣你就會應該部長這個重點的意思延逸的意思就是有彈性的意思有可能嘛 可能可以可能不行要讓大家知道如果不行我們怎麼改進嘛對吧 或者怎麼來調整好 那我們就召喚通過我們就叫委員宣召辦理好 謝謝來"},{"start":18511.837,"end":18518.802,"text":"好 那麼請問各位委員對於協商 現在協商完成那還要唸讀宣傳結論嗎請議事人員宣讀協商結論應該唸完啦要宣讀嗎我們剛剛已經照樣通過啦"},{"start":18533.601,"end":18561.351,"text":"宣讀行政院判決審議海關進口碎折部分碎折修正草案 照案通過 臨時提案D好 那麼請問各位委員對協商結論有無異議沒有 照協商結論通過 本日會議做如下決議一 報告說明及詢答完畢二 委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定"},{"start":18563.46,"end":18575.991,"text":"海關進口稅責部分稅責修正草案本案審查完整拟據審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前不需交由黨團協商院會討論時由賴會委員補充說明請問各位委員對以上決議有異議"},{"start":18584.946,"end":18594.104,"text":"沒有那我們就通過本日會議議程已進行完畢唐永不在黨委員補題順便質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理"}]}},{"id":"16535","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/16535","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db4f190e5fa5d6a823c45a0f691f4476397692a6bdb7e2f09f9ea910fe4a2c89a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。【3月19日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2025-03-20","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2025-03-20T08:30:26+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T13:13:00+08:00","duration":16954,"影片長度":"04:42:34","委員發言時間":"08:30:26 - 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Global、IMF以及OECD等国际机构的最新预测今年全球经济成长介于2.7到3.3之间当前AI应用商机与所需软体硬体的产业能为推进全球经济成长的核心动力"},{"start":1981.516,"end":1987.638,"text":"國際數據資訊IDC指出AI為全球經濟產值的貢獻將由113年的1.2兆美元至119年成長3倍到4.9兆美元台灣受惠於AI應用與資通信產品需求的持續強勁且國內本土產業供應鏈完整並具有優勢"},{"start":2005.02,"end":2018.809,"text":"可望推升出口及民间投资的动能加上国内消费持续的畅望将带动今年经济稳健成长根据主计总数最新预测台湾今年经济成长可达3.14%"},{"start":2022.834,"end":2039.187,"text":"國際經濟環境變化快速為鞏固台灣產業競爭優勢強化供應鏈韌性本部將依總統揭示全球半導體民主供應鏈夥伴倡議推動AI晶片產業鏈全球聯盟與國際合作共創半導體產業新局面"},{"start":2041.791,"end":2064.757,"text":"並積極落實境外關內 境內關外協助企業擴大對外佈局提高國際競爭優勢對內則加強開拓亞林國家來台消費擴增內需動能此外 為利中小微企業也能夠因應快速轉型以及提升競爭力今年將投入116億元支持中小微企業數位淨零雙轉型"},{"start":2066.83,"end":2095.7,"text":"並透過ASCO協助企業降低成本達到深度節能同時持續強化能資源供應韌性滿足產業發展與民主所需台灣半導體產業長期為全球客戶提供晶圓代工以及封裝等專業服務7奈米以下先進製程佔超過六成世界第一先進封裝也持續領先全球為全球高科技發展不可或缺的關鍵角色"},{"start":2096.875,"end":2125.87,"text":"臺灣晶圓大廠海外佈局正式考量提升長期的競爭力以及回應國際客戶需求藉由貼近市場優先掌握商機並可運用當地高階技術人才讓臺灣半導體領先優勢再擴大為滿足全球快速成長的AI需求半導體產業在臺灣的研發以及投資也將持續加速最先進製程也優先在臺灣量產並加速與在地供應鏈的合作"},{"start":2127.028,"end":2147.331,"text":"本部會與產業保持溝通滿足投資需求同時深化與美日歐盟等民主國家合作強化供應鏈國際韌性確保台灣在全球半導體的關鍵地位AI為產業創新變革的核心驅動力台灣的AI實力在晶片與伺服器的製造技術全球第一"},{"start":2147.972,"end":2169.452,"text":"AI伺服器由九成由台湾厂生产本部预计四年培育20万名AI人才为目标每年培养2.5万国内人才也借由二加式人才培育计划每年招揽2.5万海外生解决国内人力不足问题未来也将借由机器人与生成式AI的相互整合提高生产力"},{"start":2170.333,"end":2198.719,"text":"目前本部已开办AI相关培训课程已培育超过6.2万国内AI人才另外今年2月本部已启动智慧创新大赏的竞赛希望激化年轻世代更多的创新应用军工产业处在国家防卫任性扮演关键角色也是驱动我国产业转型的主要推力"},{"start":2202.244,"end":2223.017,"text":"113年成立台湾卓越无人机海外商机联盟以整合国内119家业者成立制造国家队带领联盟成员打造无人机飞红供应链并带动扣件以及金属加工产业转型打入供应链预计无人机产值将有113年的50亿成长到117年的300亿"},{"start":2224.958,"end":2240.371,"text":"在无人船舶的部分由船舶中心投入自驾系统开发于114年1月获得爱迪生国际大奖目前已协助国内业者成功进入国际大厂供应链预计115年第一季可以正式量产"},{"start":2241.272,"end":2269.113,"text":"全球主要国家正在布局6G以及低轨卫星通信技术抢占市场为确保台湾网通产业在全球供应链占有一席之地本部积极投资6G雏形系统以及低轨卫星设备目前已成功加入欧盟支持的6G实验网计划我国自主6G雏形系统于今年2月底开始在西班牙建置及测试并持续与国际卫星大厂"},{"start":2269.753,"end":2291.676,"text":"恰商低轨卫星地面设备的研发合作机会以推进台湾次世代通信产业的发展为协助台湾优势产业及中小企业海外布局本部推动境外关内带领台商开拓全球版图并聚焦美国、日本、中东欧等重要信赖贸易伙伴领在中南亚国家中"},{"start":2293.939,"end":2321.286,"text":"则规划菲律宾设置产业园区同时深化与当地伙伴在关键领域的合作113年12月已经在捷克设立台湾贸易投资中心完成境外关内的第一个海外服务据点第二个据点将于今年4月与日本福冈设立提供一站式服务就近协助业者布局欧洲以及日本的市场拓展合作商机此外因应美国新关税政策"},{"start":2321.966,"end":2344.422,"text":"本部除以成立专案小组及时提供企业资源并结合境外官内策略规划在美国设立贸易投资中心协助企业评估投资环境以及媒合当地的合作伙伴同时为协助我国企业开拓海外市场以台湾Cellent为共同品牌扩大海外的通路也结合台湾Excelent"},{"start":2345.161,"end":2359.539,"text":"鎖定臺灣優質產業在海外17項國際專業展設置臺灣精品館推動優質產品目前已協助620家市的品牌上架海外實體及電商通路讓臺製"},{"start":2361.789,"end":2376.881,"text":"优质的产品行销全世界在境内关外的部分将加强邀请日本韩国菲律宾以及越南等邻近国家来台观展及采购及消费并结合半导体电脑等国际指标性大展提供"},{"start":2378.288,"end":2395.351,"text":"导购服务设置查缝补以及健检医美生活体验专区再搭配交通接驳导引国内商务人士导引国际商务人士再来消费每个人都希望健康长寿出现大健康市场的庞大"},{"start":2396.112,"end":2411.559,"text":"台灣運動及醫療器材產業在全球市場上可謂為隱形冠軍有利於我們從運動到醫療建構全面多元生態系打造台灣成為提供大健康服務的國度"},{"start":2412.523,"end":2430.609,"text":"由其结合AI技术,可以在Digital Twin虚拟环境进行实体训练,运用智慧医疗及健康管理,强化疾病的预防。本部将透过研发补助与租税优惠,推动运动及医材产业投入AI技术与创新科技的应用。"},{"start":2432.446,"end":2448.834,"text":"為協助企業落實減碳並降低成本本部去年啟動深度節能透過三階段推動產業導入EXCO由公營事業帶領再擴散到民營企業並擴大資金投入透過跨部會的服務去年完成輔導577家含公營事業128家帶動民間投資24億元促進節電48億度達成106%"},{"start":2459.139,"end":2486.536,"text":"相當全國用電的1.7%今年將節電的目標提升到55億度預計116年可累計節電206億度今年除繼續跨部會合作推動公民營企業節能改善節能家電太舊換新外將推動大型的ESCO專案透過由大型ESCO公司承攬中小企業施作的以大代小方式"},{"start":2487.436,"end":2506.801,"text":"擴大EXCO業者整合建立大型專案的商業模式目前已經與環境部金管會共同合作盤點包括台大醫院榮總三總台水公司等大型專案此外為擴大EXCO量能將引導保險業資金以100億元為目標投資EXCO產業後續也將研擬"},{"start":2512.202,"end":2535.254,"text":"授權資金投入ASCO的商業模式目前已經成立50億元ASCO信保制度協助取得銀行融資部分產業公司也建立ASCO節能專案保單提供保險支持令本部也研議將ASCO業者的獎勵機制透過公司協力加速落實深度節能"},{"start":2537.284,"end":2553.636,"text":"面對國際市場競爭日益激烈中小微企業在數位以及淨零轉型的雙重挑戰下需要政府更多元以及更有效的政策支持本部去年提出中小微企業多元振興方案的計畫以提供"},{"start":2555.137,"end":2582.034,"text":"諮詢以及輔導中小微企業6.5萬家協助創造57.7億元的產值今年加碼投入116億元預計諮詢及輔導升高到19.3萬家協助創造689億元的產值因應企業對AI應用及減少碳排的需要政府對於企業培訓員工的數位技能以及導入數位資訊工具都有提供"},{"start":2584.441,"end":2597.967,"text":"同时推出租税优惠措施鼓励中小企业继续投入创新研发增雇基层员工为员工加薪并将员工加薪纳入中小企业信保基金的审核机制"},{"start":2599.353,"end":2614.886,"text":"針對投入數位淨零轉型的30年以下中小微企業除了提供優惠貸款額外提供最高3500萬元的融資保證額度其能協助20萬家取得融資達到2400億元以減輕企業的財務負擔以及壓力促進國內薪資結構的良性轉型"},{"start":2621.491,"end":2645.62,"text":"截至今年3月12日申请贷款超过7000件融资金额达到244亿余元再生能源的充分供应是带动我国绿能产业躍升以及产业绿色转型的关键本部积极推动再生能源的设置除太阳光电以及离岸风力更积极推动地热"},{"start":2646.704,"end":2664.197,"text":"以提高能源來源的多元與自主性截至去年底地熱共設置7.49MW並於宜蘭取動鎖口4000公尺深層探測井今年將以20MW為目標目前已掌握關鍵暗場12.6MW預計開鑽涵蓋半地"},{"start":2670.408,"end":2697.064,"text":"熟的热的潜能的大屯山也将透过国际合作扩大深层地热专探由国营事业带领引进国外专警设备以及国际专业团队增加中油台电案场加速我国地热发展达到2030年设置容量1.2G的目标随着台商以及国外厂扩大对台投资并考量"},{"start":2697.944,"end":2718.013,"text":"半導體AI等新興技術的長期用電需求目前已規劃113年到122年大型機組裝置容量可近增加1786萬千瓦增量將超過所預估之用電成長需求可確保供電的穩定"},{"start":2719.653,"end":2738.462,"text":"另外解決區域間供電不平衡的問題除加速各地電力建設亦推動電網分散工程強化供電網路的韌性逐步降低電網集中風險在供水方面持續推動產業穩定供水以及前瞻基礎建設"},{"start":2739.582,"end":2765.327,"text":"截至113年底以增供每日237萬噸的水源相當於增加全國22%公共用水各地區均是供給大於需求未來持續採取開源節流調度以及備援等策略推動穩定供水預計117年可再增加供水量每日120萬噸"},{"start":2769.42,"end":2782.212,"text":"整體備援能力提升到60%全台民生以及產業發展用水均可保障此外為因應未來投資案的用水需求目前主要科技或者產業園區都有"},{"start":2784.397,"end":2811.394,"text":"多谷的水源以及多条的管线可互相备源重要的产业将优先媒合使用再生水同时赶办新竹与台南各10万吨海水淡化厂作为产业备源的水源本部已成立平台听取产业意见专案协助并全力满足产业用水的需求请产业安心的投资"},{"start":2812.898,"end":2814.701,"text":"國際趨勢瞬息萬變台灣擁有堅實的產業基礎與領先全球的技術"},{"start":2823.243,"end":2843.415,"text":"雖歷經各種國際的挑戰但在政府與民間的攜手協力下軍人化危機為轉機面對當前全球經貿秩序變化尤其是美國新關稅政策帶來的影響本部已陸續召開產業座談會為產業提供更完善的支持"},{"start":2844.275,"end":2869.108,"text":"也密切關注國際經貿情勢協助企業因應市場變化加速推動產業AI轉型並開拓國際市場讓臺灣的產業更具韌性與競爭力期盼各位委員對於本部施政指正視角本會期送請大院審議的相關議案亦懇請委員鼎力相助"},{"start":2870.455,"end":2895.473,"text":"最後敬祝各位委員身體健康萬事如意以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝好謝謝郭部長現在進行詢答委員詢答前原例做以下宣告每位委員詢答時間本會委員5分鐘必要時的延長1分鐘非本會委員4分鐘上午10點30分截止登記發言現在請登記第一位林戴化委員詢答"},{"start":2900.663,"end":2901.628,"text":"好有请郭部长"},{"start":2912.077,"end":2931.213,"text":"副長來我們本行呢關心這個國營事業生活掌聲的背後勿忘國營事業的披星戴月要我們來討論國營事業的營運及人才的隱憂那這個國營事業的在台高足以及第二個台水維護管線計畫自在物提升"},{"start":2931.933,"end":2960.081,"text":"還有我們的誘因是否不足而再讓國營事業在招攬優質人才上有所困境以及國營事業員工執勤經常伴隨著巨大的危險部長本席想知道您的主張對於台電它是要用綜合電業的形態繼續營運還是要分割為發電、輸電、售電三家公司來營運本席想知道您的主張是什麼"},{"start":2962.855,"end":2987.663,"text":"報告委員我們現在是這個按照綜合電業公司形態繼續經營好那因為時間也到啦那這個本席也提出修法啦如果你支持綜合電業那您對於未來台電有沒有可能如果修法沒過啊我們電業法現在本席有提案啦很多委員都有提案"},{"start":2988.303,"end":3010.776,"text":"那就是希望他維持綜合電業那但是您的主張就是也代表這個行政院的主張是要未來要分割為他發電輸電售電三家公司嗎還是你們主張還是維持綜合電業那我提到這個東西是我們電業自由化這件事情其實早就落實了在我們現在的再生人員發電"},{"start":3013.097,"end":3038.123,"text":"你不管是用太陽能發電或是離岸發電其實就已經是發電獨立了輸電是來自於還是讓我們台電負起這個責任售電也各自在這個平台當中自己去售電所以其實在再生人員已經落實了電業自由化那也有其他的必要性但是對於台電本身"},{"start":3039.083,"end":3046.186,"text":"他是不是應該也要這樣的分割電業自由化還是以綜合電業的方式繼續經營那這就很重要因為這會跟未來現在念茲在茲媒體上報的上個禮拜二本席來質詢說會不會漲電價我們院長說這個沒有那麼快我一直訊號的下個禮拜就說要漲民生用電6%這個是爆派我也不知道實質上怎麼樣"},{"start":3063.773,"end":3074.517,"text":"那所以呢你這邊也有提到兩個重點諮詢完後你也提到說台電的公司是不可以自己沒有辦法決定電價是由電價審議委員會來決定好第二個呢台電公司可以自己決定是否舉債那我想我們也都很清楚你們的表述是說我們補助是為了減緩配合政策導致營運不佳的資金成本壓力好這也會回歸到如果你是綜合電業的話"},{"start":3093.123,"end":3103.527,"text":"跟分割為三家的這個公司來經營控股之後有三家的這個營運這你要怎麼的對於 好啊又要漲電價如果你要補貼 那補到哪裡去啊到底是要我舉債是發電這家公司要舉呢還是輸電的要舉呢 售電的要舉呢那還是乾脆就是總公司控股公司你來舉債啊那幹嘛還要分割"},{"start":3120.373,"end":3127.118,"text":"就沒有那個意義 因為今天對台灣還是一個小國家我們畢竟還是一個島國有需要在這個整個我們的這個整個島國當中這個國家當中 這個業 電業當中它負有那麼大的我們對電力的韌性之高度的要求 為什麼因為我們有天災不斷 有颱風 有地震"},{"start":3146.511,"end":3162.897,"text":"我想我們高雄是感受最深的 一個三坨颱風 一個楷米颱風受災的都真的是因為一個樹倒了 整個台電同仁幾乎都在收尾啊那誰要做 是發電公司要做 輸電公司要做 還是售電公司要去講究我跟總公司叫不動的 我三家獨立啊因為這涉及成本啦 我出去就是成本欸 加班費欸"},{"start":3171.94,"end":3182.884,"text":"所以說這個我要請部長這邊要很審慎的去表達也要一個很強烈主張本息是支持台電要以綜合電業的方式繼續營運的好那在這邊也就拜託部長您再正視這個問題"},{"start":3188.046,"end":3193.088,"text":"好那再來呢這個我們台電的虧損哈現在已經累計4200億那他的資本額呢也不過5000億所以呢這個負債比例高達92.7本期想知道預算復議案沒有通過在沒撥補台電公司情況之下經濟部或者是台電你怎麼緩解營運的債務及可預期的虧損我所可預期的虧損是今年已經可預計再虧600億"},{"start":3216.676,"end":3240.595,"text":"所以4200億再加上600億4800億部長您來自企業一個資本額不夠5000億啊所以這要怎麼營運下去是不是可以回答一下是 報告委員我們還是一樣懇請大院能夠同意這個我們行政院所準備的1000億要補助這個台電公司我們懇請大院能夠支持來改善財務的部分"},{"start":3243.993,"end":3269.586,"text":"是但是就如果加上今年的六千六百億四千八百億那也不過補助他一千億還有三千八百億的虧損那怎麼辦呢是我們在內部會啟動這個這個全面改善的這個計劃所以我們可以從各個管理面來精進能夠這個讓這個公司更具有競爭力所以如果給我們這個"},{"start":3271.126,"end":3274.729,"text":"補助 撥補我想對我們整體的士氣會讓我們早日脫離這樣的一個困境好 來 部長我們繼續台水這個說到台水其實我真的要感謝你過往的部長不會那麼重視台水的虧損"},{"start":3288.078,"end":3305.472,"text":"那真的在我質詢之後 您真的在去年11月20日我質詢之後 您真的有送上去給行政院所以呢重視他們的這個最重要的成本 台水最重要的成本是什麼 管線更新啊所以管線更新基本上是要用公共建設的角度來進行應該正常的預算的一個編列 可是現在台水是什麼"},{"start":3311.597,"end":3337.559,"text":"管線更新他是他借錢來做管線更新是這個公司最大的成本所以在您的爭取之下確實台水也讓行政院補助80億每年大概20億來做這樣的更新當然這個實在是杯水車薪啊總是有一個起步那第二個呢經濟部啊你們也這個要降低漏水力卓院長也宣示喔未來8年再投入"},{"start":3338.2,"end":3359.311,"text":"八百零七億達到先進國家的百分之十的漏水率的標準那這八百零七億是怎麼來呢我是不是請那個台水公司來報告謝謝委員的指教那剛才委員有特別提示這八百零七億裡面有八十億是由公務預算來預注台水空師其餘的部分由自來水空師來擠在"},{"start":3360.72,"end":3373.296,"text":"對 你說什麼 807億是來自哪裡除了80億是由行政院的公務預算補助之外其他的部分是來水公司要跟銀行借款所以807億你要繼續借款啊"},{"start":3374.424,"end":3381.788,"text":"727億727億要繼續借款啦對部長您看看這個還要繼續借款所以你在這邊來你已經舉債1167.99億喔部長他7我說807億要投入這是報章雜誌寫的我從就是你們的公布的這個報章你說700多億所以1167.99億再加上700多億他要去逼他們再舉債然後呢降低漏水率"},{"start":3403.7,"end":3414.903,"text":"部長這個您要重視我們在向院裡面要求 院裡面再準備我在這邊具體建議啦直接在這個債務上1167.99億再加上你的807億也好或者700多億分兩年全部進行撥補啦"},{"start":3426.707,"end":3454.417,"text":"才能夠進行他的資金壓力因為他的所有的作為都是在做管線維護水源的維持還有他的知習借了1167再加上807億也好700多億也好他這要知習欸知習在他們用借來的錢變成我的經常門然後經常門之後我再去付利息這個是非常非常不正常扭曲的一個預算編列謝謝委員的指教"},{"start":3454.997,"end":3473.699,"text":"那我講到這個真財 所謂國營事業跟產業界真財誘因不足如何吸引 左邊這個是台電的官網資料 僱用人員的起薪跟派用人員的起薪 以及前5年的薪資我們看2024年去年的國營事業倒考率"},{"start":3474.46,"end":3503.439,"text":"近三年最低所以我在攬財的部分已經不具吸引力了好如果他跟主計總數去年的全國受僱員工每人每月總薪資平均6萬相比當然這個數字如果放在並不是很多人認同但總是一個數字如果跟這樣子的一個主計處6萬多塊的每人每月的總薪資相比我講這是主計處的數字那很明顯國營事業是偏低的好我們再來看離職率"},{"start":3504.56,"end":3509.027,"text":"倒考率很低3年最低離職率這就設3年就好110年的3.8的離職率上升到113年的4.4億所以部長這要讓您重視招財不易留財更難"},{"start":3519.662,"end":3544.122,"text":"好 那包括國營事業為什麼這本席感受很深尤其來自高雄因為國營事業的作業風險是易於公值的颱風來襲的時候民間企業是放颱風架但國營事業的從業人員都是以最快速度恢復民生運作的目標來面對天災的挑戰所以所有便利的民生條件都是我們國營事業同仁披星戴月所換來的"},{"start":3545.123,"end":3559.539,"text":"所以你看看這些報導我們要去修管先報館搶修三天內恢復供水三天已經讓我民眾受不了可是他們卻是24小時不斷的加班再加班包括台電你看也有這種風險搶修人員墜谷"},{"start":3562.142,"end":3566.683,"text":"觸電為了一個把一個鳥巢摘下來30%的燒燙傷啊好再來所以具體要求啦這個是部長這邊我們要跟你一起努力的對於二列的這個財務運用去遊說行政院遊說主計處運用超增稅收來補貼國營事業的配合不管只有台電中油中油有得到你們的補貼"},{"start":3588.669,"end":3611.979,"text":"台水也一定要得到你們補貼為什麼我說用超徵稅收超徵稅收有四個來源第一個營利營所稅營業稅還有這個貨物稅第四個鎮所稅全部來自企業所以我會超徵表示我們歸於返鄉的政策是得到肯定的所以企業用水用電"},{"start":3612.699,"end":3617.101,"text":"多了所以他營業額也多了所以我從他超徵的稅收當中再回到來撥補我的國營事業不管水電都是合理的這是本席的論述所以在這個超徵稅收的部分這個裁員那當然也有這個有我們立法院當政議員說每人發一萬塊有人發兩萬塊"},{"start":3634.548,"end":3654.315,"text":"但是是不是怎麼讓我的預算更有效益的用用公共建設我覺得這個部分讓國營事業來這個得到超增稅收的理論基礎是因為他全部來自企業我今天企業用電用水多了那我當然用他們的超增稅收去回饋我的台電台水因為我動漲啊"},{"start":3655.455,"end":3675.168,"text":"我動掌他的電 我動掌他的水 去穩定台灣的通貨膨脹功不可沒 所以在這邊 這個請部長這邊要能夠給予這樣他們的支持那第二個對於流財攬財的部分 希望研議合一的工作條件並適度提高危險加緊 部長針對這兩個訴求你怎麼看"},{"start":3677.86,"end":3684.724,"text":"這個謝謝委員的支持跟指教我們會這個 依這個方向來努力好 部長我們一起加油謝謝 謝謝我們現在請賴瑞榮委員做詢答好 謝謝召委 請郭部長郭部長"},{"start":3704.482,"end":3722.872,"text":"好 部長 部長跟所有的經濟團隊辛苦了我先請教一下 其實在野黨在去年的1月25號的時候就講到要讓政府找不到人來當部長那部長你同意這樣的看法嗎要讓政府找不到人來當部長"},{"start":3728.905,"end":3755.203,"text":"不便回答不便回答啦我當然認為是不適合的啦因為部長是一個重要的職務啦每一個部長都是國家重要的公職那應該要讓所有優秀的人才更多人才願意進到公部門來擔任部長擔任次長擔任所有重要的公職這個國家才會更好所以我絕對不認同這樣看法不論哪一黨在執政我都不認同找不到人來當部長絕對這不是一個好事情但是我看到昨天已經國民黨已經在開記者會"},{"start":3759.686,"end":3781.102,"text":"部長你會受到影響嗎我擔任這個公職我想是有我的這個理念那目前為止沒有受到什麼影響我想這個每個人的看法都有他自己的這個角度有他的看法但是我在努力的做為這個國家"},{"start":3782.743,"end":3799.718,"text":"為我們經濟部的同仁大家一起努力希望能夠這個完成我們大家要努力的這個目標所以部長今天有很多可能有人會不斷的要你下台要你離開你不會受到影響這個為國家奉獻為國家付出這個心念不會受到影響"},{"start":3800.559,"end":3828.495,"text":"因為委員你已經在這邊支持我一起加油啦我認為不斷的更迭絕對不是好事情讓部長做不下去讓沒有人敢來當部長絕對不是好事啦這國家不會前進但是當然我也有提醒部長啦就是我會建議部長就多做少說啦其實你是企業家出身的企業家跟政務關係有一點不一樣企業家暢所欲言沒有關係不會有什麼但是部長沒講出來的一句話可能都會被高度檢視"},{"start":3829.375,"end":3851.808,"text":"甚至有些是實際上也許是這樣但是部長的角度其實並不適合這樣講所以裡面看到過去來招發部長已經講過電價不是越便宜越好當電價越便宜大家越浪費電包括川普只當一任影響有限包括美國對台灣晶片課徵百分之百關稅不一定不合理包括蒙古症等等這些"},{"start":3852.928,"end":3879.199,"text":"報告委員我想這裡面有很多都是這個作者的斷章取義啦大概我應該是要讓我整段都能夠這個報告清楚那我想大家就會知道我的原意是什麼但是就那幾個字來斷章取義我覺得這個是有一些偏頗啦我還是希望說事實"},{"start":3880.299,"end":3900.473,"text":"就是事實我在講的部分當然有很多的人他不會認同但是時間久了他一定認同我的看法部長我會建議的是這樣這個生態上面他很容易就是會摘取你從前的一段話所以我還是會建議部長在某些關鍵性的字句還是要謹慎小心"},{"start":3901.414,"end":3924.002,"text":"若是企業領袖其實是沒有關係但是這部長他不會整段給你的他會只抓你中間那一段敏感性的次序這個都會影響到整個政府的一些好不好請部長這是我認知不清所以我會改進好謝謝部長那再來我想請教的是其實電價的部分其實大家很敏感我們看到各國其實在俄烏戰爭之後都是在"},{"start":3925.183,"end":3944.742,"text":"這個補貼的方式 包括日本補貼的7000億 包括德國補貼的1兆 包括法國也補貼了7000億那其實我們也採取這樣的策略 希望穩定住物價啦 穩定住整個電價的部分那但是卻不斷的被攻擊啦 攻擊這個能源政策我想問的是 部長啦 接下來這個電價的部分會調動嗎"},{"start":3947.925,"end":3965.859,"text":"報告委員我想電價調動是電價審議委員的工作我們會盡量收集所有的訊息也會請參與電價審議委員的這些提供他們正確的訊息讓由他們來做判斷"},{"start":3967.26,"end":3983.294,"text":"這段時間其實已經撐很久了啦台電撐很久了就因為這個整個有原因故料上漲之後撐了很久那也本來是期望得到政府的支持而進來但是顯然並沒有得到那我個人的看法我覺得其實穩定住物價這件事情是相當重要因為一旦"},{"start":3984.134,"end":3999.887,"text":"漲上去就回不來了啦 漲上去回不來所以我個人會希望是 電價先不要漲你等到7月新民意出來新的民意會去展現出來之後新的民意去做出最後的決定再來考慮因為電價一旦調漲特別是這些民生跟基礎的一旦調上去"},{"start":4001.168,"end":4024.806,"text":"電價上去就回不來了很多的已經指出來了其實每條1%到6%的電價會調漲了多少的整個物價的波動這個一上去就回不來了對於整個民生對整個都會產生相當大的影響特別是現在地方上的物價蠢蠢欲動甚至有的已經動起來了那我希望在電價這一塊還撐得住的狀況下能不能等到了下一個階段再來做整體的這個思考"},{"start":4025.106,"end":4042.784,"text":"新的民意即將出來等新的民意做出最後的決定如果新的民意認為台電就是這個政府不該撥補台電就是應該漲電價那我們尊重這個新的民意決定但如果新的民意認為其實台電應該由政府給予撥補穩定住物價而台電不要漲電基本的這個民生電價那我們認為台電還有機會來做這個調整"},{"start":4047.228,"end":4072.237,"text":"部長同意這樣的看法嗎謝謝委員的指導我們會來參考提供給這個電價審議委員做判斷我希望這個部分納進去做一個參考好不好就是七八月新民意會有出現那新的民意出來之後我認為這個是一個我還是希望以國家為重因為一旦動了其實就回不來世界各國也並不是笨蛋嘛為什麼大家都採行用補貼的政策盡量減少"},{"start":4072.977,"end":4098.248,"text":"減少這個調漲但很多還是調了啦但是盡量減少調漲他就希望穩定那台灣的現在很多的整個經濟的狀況也是來自於我們很穩定的這個物價的這個策略那再來我再問一下現在的核能的部分有很多人提到啦那當然核能的安全核廢的處理跟民意其實這三個很關鍵的問題部長怎麼看未來的核能的部分的思考對於新的核能我們都可以參與討論那我們的我們的這個"},{"start":4103.062,"end":4122.287,"text":"條件就是說剛才委員所指教的這部分安全無力然後核廢料可以處理然後大家有共識特別是新的核能我們都歡迎討論新的技術出來大家當然但是他還是必須確立在核能的安全上面同時核廢料的處理必須大家是有共識的"},{"start":4122.907,"end":4151.534,"text":"那更重要的是社會上的共識要去產生非核家園還在法裡面這個還是確立的所以我認為這個部分都是要經過很多的一個溝通的過程所以我們希望整個整理思考那最後一個我再請教一下我們這個高雄的中油的總部現在雖然已經這個設計已經移到了高雄去了但是中油的總部實質難簽什麼時候會來完成我是不是請上位董事長跟你報告"},{"start":4152.847,"end":4157.42,"text":"報告委員就是中油公司在105年戶籍都已經搬到高雄"},{"start":4158.699,"end":4181.958,"text":"至於說實質南遷的部分目前是還沒有規劃不過我們再看一個進度就是我們在高雄煉油廠這邊新蓋的那個南部企業大樓那麼我們加速改辦預定在119年年中已經會完成那麼在這個時間點或許是一個可以相對考慮的一個事項"},{"start":4183.842,"end":4211.101,"text":"部長 董事長我也希望朝這個方向來推動當你的工廠第一線都是在高雄在南部的時候管理單位越趨近於你的工廠你的反倒是更好做管理另外一方面也跟大家同在那另外一方面是這些對於整個當地的部分都有相當大的一個幫助那既然這個時程已經抓出來了我希望未來實質南遷來展現出跟"},{"start":4211.781,"end":4228.059,"text":"第一線站在一起跟第一線管理也在第一線那台北這個新計畫區的位地段相當的好我相信他不管是出租或什麼都會有非常好的效益我認為這是一個對國家對中國最好的方向部長同意這樣的方向嗎是我們朝這個方向來努力好謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝我們現在請邱議員委員做詢答"},{"start":4254.398,"end":4270.122,"text":"謝謝主席謝謝主席我請一下部長郭部長委員好部長好部長您上任到現在將近8個月對不對超過超過8個月了適應這個環境嗎"},{"start":4277.02,"end":4301.987,"text":"漸漸融入漸漸融入我覺得今天您的回答剛剛前面兩位執政黨委員問您的話題我覺得您感覺上非常非常的謹慎不太像過去的郭志輝先生部長我想我還是針對最近大家關心的議題總預算沒過其實對於"},{"start":4306.169,"end":4322.462,"text":"台灣整個環境來講其實影響非常大第一個水電這個就是大家要首先面臨到的問題台電的1000億撥補沒有在立法院通過那台電的累計虧損已經到4229億元了這個累計的虧損越來越多就您經營一個公司這麼久"},{"start":4331.826,"end":4345.224,"text":"如果這個虧損達到這樣這公司還能活得下去嗎他如果不做一些體質上或者是財務上的調整這樣的公司經營得下去嗎報告委員如果以我的經驗來講"},{"start":4347.379,"end":4366.672,"text":"從各個管理面我們來看這個問題是到底今天造成目前的負債是什麼樣的原因我要知道原因才能夠找到問題然後這個找到問題我才能夠對症下藥好嘛那你一定知道台電的原因是什麼嘛對不對就是"},{"start":4368.342,"end":4384.754,"text":"動漲造成所有的一切都是動漲 只漲工業用電只漲民生用電 只漲用電大戶 1000度以上的那所有的民生用電全部動漲的結果立法院也不給撥補 也不給漲價什麼都不要"},{"start":4389.434,"end":4413.707,"text":"那台電的虧損就會越來越多嘛是不是這樣那我要請教就是說未來我認為調整電價應該是勢在必行啦雖然電價審議委員會還沒有開會但是調整電價應該是勢在必行調整的幅度到什麼程度這個可能還要經過再更詳細的討論嘛部長您同意我的看法嗎完全同意好"},{"start":4414.287,"end":4426.537,"text":"如果您同意我的看法我覺得經濟部現在下一步要做的是應該要去研議你們要如何降低民生用電跟小商店因為電價調漲所帶來的負擔"},{"start":4431.755,"end":4457.492,"text":"你們要怎麼樣去做要怎麼樣去減輕他的負擔有一個東西叫做節電補助但是這個節電補助呢預算也被凍結了那預算凍結的理由是因為要叫你們考慮這個核電重啟所以要叫你們寫一個報告然後要到立法院來專案報告以後節能補助的費用才能恢復所以節能補助很快的他可能就會"},{"start":4458.666,"end":4478.456,"text":"沒有這些設備沒有這些錢可以用那民生住宅小商店的電價又要漲昨天曾文森董事長說啦如果台電用韓國的電價去收費的話我們到2024年其實是可以盈餘1539億你就微幅調漲你如果比照韓國的電價是作為微幅調漲其實是可以有盈餘的"},{"start":4486.052,"end":4507.577,"text":"部長 如果您看這個表 您會怎麼做這個是昨天曾文森講 他昨天已經講過了我現在要聽一下您的意見我沒有去看到這個命題我現在把這個PowerPoint放在您的眼前讓您看來 文森你要不要 曾董事長你要補充說明嗎請董事長補充說明"},{"start":4510.882,"end":4532.72,"text":"那個報告部長還有報告那個委員喔我是拿現在韓國的電價然後就是2024年韓國的電價然後套在我們的用電度數因為它也是民生電價和工業電價分開計算是我知道所以如果你依照這樣韓國的這個電價的幅度台灣會漲到這樣的幅度嗎會不會"},{"start":4538.513,"end":4562.264,"text":"我們應該是不用漲那麼高啦我們當然剛才委員所關心的這個CPI的部分我想我們這個是院長也有指示我們希望努力讓國人在物價的通膨上面不要超過2%那電價的調漲多少會影響的影響因素所以我們會想辦法"},{"start":4563.018,"end":4583.08,"text":"然後來這個努力然後來調整那調整當然是要這個電價委員會的同意不過我們會去細算用什麼樣最適化的不是最好但是最合適的這個方法來提出來然後來請這個委員指導這樣好 部長"},{"start":4584.693,"end":4608.199,"text":"如果說您剛剛講的這個電價調整的部分還有有待電價審議委員會去審議那這個是你們之前也是您之前說的要到菲律賓去種綠電那這個報告已經送到經濟委員會來了我大概看了一下幾頁的報告我看完以後我其實不太知道到底經濟部在說什麼"},{"start":4609.11,"end":4625.182,"text":"到底是可行還是不可行因為然後我看了幾大媒體的標題我看到晚上以後我就跟我的助理說那到底是可行還是不可行因為早上看的是不可行下午看的又說是可以然後到晚上看了我已經不知道他可不可以了"},{"start":4626.318,"end":4649.407,"text":"結果現在又有一個標說 郭志輝部長不放棄 韓可行 未來的成本會下降到底菲律賓重綠電這件事情 除了你們送過來的報告以外經濟部內部有沒有經過很妥適的討論 很深入的討論它到底可不可以 那你說未來的技術或者是價格"},{"start":4650.827,"end":4669.794,"text":"這個部分你的評估標準是什麼評估基準是什麼部長我讓您說明一下報告委員我想在這個地方謝謝你讓我有機會來說明那我們那一份是可行性分析也就是說去或者不去先做一個可行性分析我們認為這個報告顯示是可行的"},{"start":4672.495,"end":4686.54,"text":"第二個有一些限制的問題我們在評估我變成要到實地去考察實地去了解才能夠再做更深層的這個計算那麼剛才講說我就回答你這個5塊5的這個問題"},{"start":4689.241,"end":4710.918,"text":"我們的同仁他們拿的計算方法是現在日本從北海道送到本州的然後一個儲能櫃大概是2.5M的計算方式跟委員報告目前我們國內的廠商可以做到一個儲能櫃5M也就是兩倍"},{"start":4711.718,"end":4737.125,"text":"日本他們現在可以做到8M那麼我跟日本的這個廠商對接過以後他們跟我講他們可以做到10M也就是說5塊5這個價格當儲能櫃到10M的時候5塊5必須除以4所以他的這個送電回來的價格大概只有1.25那你的10M是現在就可以做還是未來三年可以做"},{"start":4738.26,"end":4746.117,"text":"你講日本說他可以做到10枚是現在可以做現在是8枚年底會到10枚今年年底就會到10枚"},{"start":4747.951,"end":4771.003,"text":"所以像這些東西我覺得在你們的所謂的可行性評估報告裡頭是沒有展現我想要再簡單再問一題這個大概是跟我的地方上的建設是很有關係的因為預算被動預算沒有過新興計畫沒有辦法做部長這個你應該要去了解所有的河川"},{"start":4772.669,"end":4795.586,"text":"水利署所做的這些河川輸菌的工作或者是水利的建置的工作 防淹水的工作因為預算沒過 很多的新興計畫是沒有辦法做的那這個我希望水利署趕快去把它整理出來你們現在所受的影響有哪些我現在講的是六龜老農溪的部分"},{"start":4796.266,"end":4815.688,"text":"全台灣類似這樣的一個新興的計畫 河川的治理計畫是非常多的我認為你們應該把這些整理出來 然後讓當地的委員很清楚了解這個對治水 對於防災會產生的重大影響"},{"start":4817.27,"end":4832.909,"text":"不要大家在那裡預算山爽的啊然後淹水又來罵政府啊所以我是不是能夠要求水利署你們把你們這些防災防洪的新興計畫受到影響的全部把它名列出來可以嗎"},{"start":4834.494,"end":4859.601,"text":"這個可以部長我想這個應該要讓民眾很清楚的知道亂山預算對於治災防洪會產生的影響對於我們這項新興計畫六龜老農溪過去88風災的時候受創嚴重還好這幾年有這樣的一個包括前瞻的治水包括各式各樣的治水的計畫"},{"start":4861.564,"end":4870.479,"text":"那如果預算被刪了以後未來怎麼辦所以我請你們要趕快把這些東西整理出來要讓民眾清楚了解好嗎我們馬上處理謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請張祺凱委員做詢答"},{"start":4898.063,"end":4924.879,"text":"請保定國務長委員長保定 剛才有人在問你說逗台的事情其實你應該沒有見情啦沒有嘛 對不對我這個在這個工作上面 我很努力對啦 很努力 沒有見情啦事實上比做多久更重要的就是要留下美名 不要留下罵名"},{"start":4926.035,"end":4953.013,"text":"我現在看你民調還算在前面啦還算在前面那最重要的要讓人民是幫你鼓掌的不要背後你去做民調的時候很多人罵你這個才比做多久更重要那最近有一個事情就會關係到你會留下美名還是罵名其實有兩個很重要的嘛你的任內電價會漲幾次這個就是你的歷史定位喔每次民調漲一次電價你可能民調就掉一些了"},{"start":4954.226,"end":4983.408,"text":"然後第二個你到底有沒有幫民眾解決用電的這個穩定然後電價不要一直是往上漲的這兩個都非常非常重要的包括你有沒有從根本的問題你會企鴿來啊台電本來是個金雞母那它為什麼變成敗家子你找到那個病因啊對不對我們要從那個治本去把它解決你如果這個問題解決了那連你要建型你要走人民都會挽留你你如果一些事情都處理不好"},{"start":4984.434,"end":4988.781,"text":"那人民就希望你走嘛 是不是所以柏定我先來討論一個問題來你的任內啊 你覺得你的任內 電價會漲幾次肯定會漲幾次對不對最近4月份會再漲一次嗎 郭志輝的任內"},{"start":5001.858,"end":5017.144,"text":"馬上再漲第二次的電價嗎這會是你的歷史定位是人民對郭志輝的評價嗎報告委員就像那一天院長在大會大院上面講的我不是水電部長我是經濟部長我是為中華民國的經濟來打拚的"},{"start":5019.045,"end":5032.552,"text":"所以福國利民才是我的目標當然委員所關心的水電的部分這個是非常重要的跟民生絕對有正常觀所以您的指教我會謹記在心那至於處理台電的這個電價的問題我再三的跟您報告電價的問題不是由經濟部長來決定的"},{"start":5043.538,"end":5067.33,"text":"電價是由電價審議委員來決定的電價審議委員包含所有的專家、學者以及用電戶部長抱歉因為時間有限已經用掉一半時間了因為我在質詢我抱歉我必須要打斷非常抱歉我們讓人民知道經濟部跟政府有很重要的責任讓我們的電力不只要穩定電價也不能一直漲來我給你看一個圖來你看一下"},{"start":5069.076,"end":5071.84,"text":"看一下這是2006年到2004年的電價的調整馬英九任內漲了4次 降了3次蔡英文漲了4次"},{"start":5081.028,"end":5101.679,"text":"這個就是大家對馬英九跟蔡英文的評價一樣嘛 我就是要問你嘛你現在任內你要盡量不要讓他一直長你看我們為民進黨執政以後最近這三年像沖天炮一樣三年已經沖了四次了你如果最近又長了一次就三年長了五次喔大家就記得郭志輝的任內"},{"start":5102.699,"end":5126.975,"text":"已經漲了兩次了好不好所以你盡量要去踩煞車沒有這是第一第二個更重要的大家對你更深的一個期待我也不是說隨便叫你說電價不要漲啊你從七月來你應該去找那個病因在什麼地方嘛你看為什麼馬英九時代電價上去後來就掉下來民進黨政府為什麼一直往上衝為什麼民進黨政府做了兩件事情是馬英九沒有做的"},{"start":5128.493,"end":5151.832,"text":"停掉核電對不對核電核一核二核三一年大概多花了一千億啊第二個買了綠電嘛這個都是民進黨以前沒有的你光是最近你買了那麼多的綠電一年300億度你現在只賣10%出去嘛對不對你如果儘快你現在賣R1-30你儘快把它賣出去你一年五六百億的錢就進來了啊所以在講就是說電價可以不用漲"},{"start":5153.39,"end":5180.948,"text":"你去解決核電的問題你去解決馬上可以做的馬上可以做的剛講的 R130 趕快去賣你把你買的高價買的核電把它賣出去7月可以買到綠電對不對這是7月也有嘛 對不對台電也不要虧損嘛 人品也不要再不要再被你漲電價啊所以4月1號有太多方法可以做 好不好好好想一下 好不好那另外我提 我前幾天有特別提醒你你是漲電價 我看"},{"start":5183.584,"end":5196.457,"text":"有一個不用漲的方式就是豐電的廠商跟你台電都有簽契約嘛 對不對雲能豐廠2分2米的400億啊你這400億只要一把啊回來了你幹嘛去漲電價你現在有去把這個錢收回來了嗎"},{"start":5202.806,"end":5224.477,"text":"報告委員我們所做所為都是依法依規在進行那麼在法律的框架之下我們該做的事情都會去做那所以委員所指導的跟指教的部分我們會來參考那如果說我們有做不好的地方或者是沒有做到的地方這個我們會努力去改善"},{"start":5226.48,"end":5245.687,"text":"所以這個很具體嘛就是雲能這個就是400億在那嘛對不對這個是依法要的啊你在雲能該給你這400億的同時還有你漲電價的這個同時當然是先處理這400億進來啊那你說依法依合約來做為什麼到現在400億沒有要回來嗎能不能在最近電價審議委員會"},{"start":5247.287,"end":5270.804,"text":"好 開會之前把這400億要回來要回來你就可以電交審理委員講啊我現在有錢啊我們不要 我們不要去圖利廠商我會照顧人民這一部分我是不請那個南原局長跟你報告一下好不好等一下啦 你私底下再給我那個啦我現在要求 你私底下 我因為我問題沒有問完時間已經到了 抱歉 局長那個因為沒有那個400億啦那個400億是委員算的 那沒有那個400億這個從去年開始 從"},{"start":5273.912,"end":5298.482,"text":"不是每一條都是想在問的時候你們都說你們盡力要去把這400億要回來這企業不是清清楚楚嗎因為它有中間有一些遇到COVID有一些不可抗力的因素是可以扣除所以OK來所以第一個不是沒有是有然後你說是因為碰到疫情對不對可是它確實造成我們第一個造成我們要用綠電延誤了第二個是依照企業就是應該可以罰我現在問你哪一個輕哪一個重我想對於這個題聽我講哪一個輕哪一個重在企業"},{"start":5302.503,"end":5304.368,"text":"在風電商跟人民之間哪一個重"},{"start":5305.796,"end":5332.094,"text":"你現在這400億不要回來 結果你去仗人民的這個地下你現在只要再把400億依法律契約沒有400億這個命題沒有400億這個命題你說沒有是因為你說你把它認定放寬變成說碰到疫情嘛對不對我們可以跟您再報告這個部分齁但是沒有400億這個命題所以要我去要這個400億真的就是我沒有辦法這個這個平空嘛你們現在的解釋是說因為碰到疫情嘛對不對"},{"start":5333.115,"end":5347.984,"text":"你等於是放寬了嘛 它確實是延誤了嘛所以裁委所理的保證金要扣抵這個問題嘛那我們絕對是依法我們絕對是依法依規來進行的我們一定是依照法律的規定在進行工作如果委員認為說我們這裡面有不法的行為我歡迎提告"},{"start":5360.531,"end":5365.814,"text":"一方面是提告嘛,一方面你們有責任我們建議,也許我們的做法,您認為說不對,那我們接受這個改善但是如果不是事實的,歡迎提告普天,我經常在經濟二輪會問你這件事情問兩次,第一,總是選問一次對,要回去查證書,然後會盡量...這個是虛無的事情"},{"start":5386.412,"end":5406.851,"text":"這個是委員推估的推估的金額我們認為這樣不是推估的金額 不是 署長合約上面是這樣寫嘛 對不對現在是你們幫他解套嘛沒有沒有 委員如果認為在這個情況之下我們歡迎提告一方面是提告 一方面是你們不要只有幫廠商解套的同時我們不會幫廠商來做這個這個"},{"start":5411.758,"end":5439.186,"text":"解釋一方面我們要走法律的途徑一方面就是你要跟民眾非常清楚交代是有這個企業的只是你幫他用疫情這個解套人民接不接受這個接受我剛剛講的歷史定位跟人民怎麼看你的問題人民覺得你該不該幫他解套特別他影響到我們漲電價報告委員我們希望就事實討論衍生性的這個假設我認為還是要透過科學的方式來討論因為所有的事實的"},{"start":5439.986,"end":5455.606,"text":"这个反正所有的事实的进行一定是有科学的根据才能够提出来论述用假设性或者推论的我认为这样的话可能就失去我们理想讨论的这样一个范围什么叫事实什么叫科学有没有这份"},{"start":5457.077,"end":5474.398,"text":"這個合約 有嘛有沒有罰款這個事情 有嘛現在問題出這個有的就是事實 這個就是科學現在問題出在你們幫他解套啊問題幫他解套我問你 你要幫他解套的同時 站不站得住位的同時你幫他解套完之後 失敗不見了你又來占我們的電價"},{"start":5475.523,"end":5499.741,"text":"不是這樣子這個事情我們要追求 這是一條路第二個我們有共識嘛 對不對 保定那第二個我們有共識R1300要綠電趕快賣 對不對讓企業可以買到電 可以贏然後呢 台電可以賺到錢根本就不用漲電價 我們真明明的贏 好不好我們來研究啦 我們一定是在法律的框架之下"},{"start":5500.521,"end":5517.601,"text":"我們來進行我們的業務啦超過法律的允許的範圍我們是沒有辦法做的這一點請我這個委員可以原諒我們就用事實跟科學來做今天的討論所以馬上讓人民電價對整個物價衝擊是太大的那我們提出三個解方"},{"start":5518.422,"end":5546.344,"text":"至少有兩個你是有共識的嘛第一個綠電趕快賣出去創造企業買到電台電有賺到錢人民不用漲電價是個三贏這是第一條路第二個重啟核電最近國際上都已經重啟了AIT的處長這幾天已經說了他說連美國日本都在用核電他們還可以幫我們好不好斯德文前任的這個AIT的處長也講了好好去思考一下包括烏俄戰爭的時候德國都讓他的那個三座"},{"start":5548.345,"end":5571.611,"text":"三座這個核電廠都可以研議那最近美國跟日本都是只要是安全的一到三年都可以重啟我想研議的問題我們是要尊重這個大院的這個規定那大院在之前有規定我們一定要下載我們在法的框架下去進行這個核電下載當然你要說研議啊恢復我想這個"},{"start":5573.051,"end":5592.985,"text":"只要大院通過我們就是尊重大院的這個昨天委員會已經開了第一個公聽會啦這個我們會盡快修法方面我們會我相信這個不是只有在野黨的這個責任啦執政黨更有更有更有這個義務跟這個責任要去共同來推動包括部長這對你來講能源的穩定跟電價不要太高這都是你的事好所以綠電"},{"start":5594.566,"end":5614.153,"text":"核電趕快要去處理那你剛剛講有爭議性的這一塊我們讓全民來公平到底你們用這個疫情這個去幫他解套到底合不合適我們會急著追下去報告委員我們不會單於廠商去解套我也要求我的同仁必須要在法的框架之內進行工作"},{"start":5614.713,"end":5634.322,"text":"不能夠為單一廠商去解套這個是這個不符合目前看到的事實就是這樣啊完全沒有我們在法的在法的框架之內我們去努力但是我們絕不為這個法以外的事情去做解套"},{"start":5634.622,"end":5640.045,"text":"部長一方面是法啦一方面就是現在人民看到你去幫這家廠商400億沒進來你們已經重複這個兩次了謝謝大家好我們現在請我們鄭振前委員做詢問"},{"start":5662.197,"end":5664.04,"text":"謝主席我想請一下郭智慧郭部長"},{"start":5675.904,"end":5698.236,"text":"部長好,我發現昭緯其實對你特別友善因為我們今天的質詢時間少了兩分鐘所以可以感覺到我們昭緯對你是友善的一個狀態我想說大家都很關心台灣的能源政策感覺像電價上漲似乎已經在箭在弦上可是我覺得台灣對於整個用電用到哪裡去我們也非常非常的關心"},{"start":5699.716,"end":5714.846,"text":"可是我發現說我們在找一些資料的時候我想問一下部長這邊因為我們想要知道說台灣前30大的用電大戶的相關的資料這個部分可不可以提供"},{"start":5719.828,"end":5735.617,"text":"現於個資法的部分我們有困難個資法的部分不能夠提供用電大戶的名單是這樣子嗎 確定嗎連我們如果要質詢也都不能夠有這樣子的一個狀態嗎"},{"start":5739.089,"end":5754.479,"text":"對於這個產業競爭的部分他用的度數多少這個我們很難提供Ranking的部分我想沒有問題Ranking的部分沒有問題嘛前30大用電的部分沒有問題可是如果要知道說他們用電的種類數量"},{"start":5756.34,"end":5784.892,"text":"可能就會有一些問題對不對OK那我們之後我們辦公室會直接會跟能源署這邊要求資料因為按照能源管理法的時候我們應該要有對這事相關的一個掌握OK好那我們接下來因為為什麼會提到這個部分因為當大家都在關心台積電到美國去投資1000億這事情的時候很多人講到國安的問題或等等可是我從產業上面直接得到一些訊息的時候他們很多很直覺的反應跟我講說是因為台灣的電他們怕不夠"},{"start":5785.672,"end":5807.999,"text":"所以到國外去設廠那這當然都有很多不同的理由那我只想要請教一下部長這邊就是去年2024年的時候台積電的用電量佔台灣整體發電量的百分之多少大概是8%左右"},{"start":5810.38,"end":5828.21,"text":"8%嗎因為我看媒體有些是寫9%那我按照那個標準普爾他的一個國際報告的時候他認為說電力供應逐漸成為台積電的信用風險那他提到的數字是在2023年的時候大概是8.4%啦那預計到2030年的時候"},{"start":5833.993,"end":5853.93,"text":"就是會占到台灣總體發電量的15.6%比重不斷的升高所以這也是為什麼其實我在第一線的時候我很多台積電裡面的人他們第一個直接反應就是說因為電量不夠所以他們要到國外去投資那我這邊我也想請教因為我這邊也有一些不同的訊息"},{"start":5855.271,"end":5881.117,"text":"就是他提到一個點就是說台積電現在每天到夏季的時候下午用電尖峰的時候如果台電的備載容量有點不夠的時候呢台積電馬上就會被要求降載然後台積電的馬來西亞你再回應一下然後他們就直接講說台積電他們自己的一個柴油發電機幾乎天天是火力全開長達半年的時間有沒有這樣的一個狀態"},{"start":5882.691,"end":5902.672,"text":"報告委員,你是新竹市的委員,你應該非常清楚台積電的訊息,台積電半島立場是不能夠降載的。所以這個就是我要特別提的問題,是因為地方一直在傳這件事情。我覺得可能是有人提供錯誤的訊息給你。"},{"start":5904.033,"end":5933.217,"text":"理解所以說我這邊我要特別提到就是說我們這邊對於電的部分是怎麼樣子我覺得我們這邊很關切所以從你上來的時候我們就不斷在講到怎麼樣在優化台灣綠電的一個產出所以當我們之前特別問到一個台澎電纜的部分因為它現在有200MHz的一個電纜線可是它實際能夠用的部分非常非常的低只有80MHz那我們在想這個部分有沒有辦法把它提高"},{"start":5935.078,"end":5954.893,"text":"報導委員我們現在當然有一個新的計畫我們大概澎湖有一些地區他們可以設置太陽能光電也可以設置陸域的風電那這個全部是綠電我們可以利用現有的海纜把它送回來"},{"start":5955.734,"end":5975.083,"text":"那這個大概會有將近100多MW這個對我們來講啊因為這個澎湖來到就是新竹其實也蠻近的所以我想這是一個我們在啟動這個新的這個計畫的一部分那當然現在我們還在抱怨許可啦那我相信我們對這個綠電的這個增設是不遺餘力的因為"},{"start":5980.465,"end":6000.991,"text":"我們增設綠電的這個部分主要還是要滿足台灣半導體業它的需求那針對這個部分的時候我想另外再衍生一個問題其實就是之前很多委員也都很關心就是呂宋經濟走廊這個計畫那因為之前是拜登的一個計畫現在川普上來之後這個計畫還繼續執行嗎"},{"start":6004.674,"end":6005.936,"text":"報告委員這個計畫因為美國政府的改變那這個計畫我們必須要得到"},{"start":6014.943,"end":6039.779,"text":"AIT然後這個菲律賓的這個美國駐菲律賓他們的這些關鍵人物的這個支持所以我們不是在旅送經濟走廊上面的份子我們只是想要參與那因為我知道去年什麼國發會主委其實也都直接表示台灣需要參與在旅送經濟走廊這個計畫當中很具體的表示出來"},{"start":6040.339,"end":6062.934,"text":"那你這邊也某一個部分參與那我想知道一個狀態是這個計畫 影不影響到我們在呂宋重電它可不可以分開來獨立處理基本上這是兩個不同的計畫我們希望讓台灣的廠商可以到菲律賓去重電主要是我們希望光電業者因為台灣這個市場太小了"},{"start":6063.274,"end":6078.733,"text":"OK他必須要走到世界但是最近的世界就是在菲律賓跟日本所以我們是協助他們能夠讓他在台灣製造特別是這個台灣製造的光電是飛鴻供應鏈裡面非常重要的一部分"},{"start":6079.613,"end":6096.681,"text":"所以我想在這個民主同盟的這個光電的需求台灣的業者可以扮演非常強大的這個貢獻所以我們幫助他能夠到菲律賓去種電所以我們會去幫他談到一些可以當地快速落地快速賺錢的這個方法"},{"start":6097.902,"end":6117.935,"text":"OK 兩個部分所以呂宋經濟走廊這個部分不影響到你提的一個呂宋重電的這個計畫對不對那呂宋重電計畫我上一次在質詢的時候我也曾經問過你一個狀態是在呂宋這邊發電的狀態它的碳權有沒有辦法為台灣企業所使用你那時候提到說因為必須要有電纜"},{"start":6118.875,"end":6141.344,"text":"才能夠滿足R100的需求那因為現在還有R130的問題然後我看到你們提到報告當中提到一個運電船的這個問題我先不考慮它的成本我想先知道運電船假設運到台灣來因為你剛剛有提到說年底日本這邊有就是成本會降低到一度一塊多那這個狀態的時候用運電船運到台灣的電"},{"start":6144.785,"end":6160.062,"text":"碳泉能不能使用可以可以使用齁OK那這個部分因為那個船那個船本身也是綠電的電池的話是電動船就可以OK如果是燒油的那就變成灰電OK所以說如果是呃"},{"start":6163.055,"end":6175.943,"text":"運電船運到台灣來的電這探權還是可以由台灣的企業這邊來直接使用那這個部分之後有再更細的資料再給本席一下我這邊另外要問一下我們大阪市博會這邊的進度"},{"start":6178.089,"end":6199.7,"text":"有沒有落後報告委員沒有落後因為那個我看整個新聞出來說目前整個國外的一個國際場館只有完成不到20%剩下不到一個月要開展那我在想說關心台灣這邊因為我們花了20億在大阪市博會這邊那進度是不是能夠如期開張"},{"start":6201.477,"end":6223.453,"text":"我們現在是按照進度在進行了這部分詳細的話我是不請我們署長跟你報告因為時間的關係請事後再跟本辦公室做一個清楚的報告好不好那我最後想問一個因為你在那個你的口頭報告當中的時候有特別提到了一個軍工的一個產業在國家防衛任性扮演的角色當中你特別提到了一個"},{"start":6224.193,"end":6236.5,"text":"就是無人機的一個費用供應鏈就無人機國家隊的問題那我想問一下目前這個無人機國家隊他是用商規軍用還是直接變成軍規軍用"},{"start":6238.348,"end":6257.244,"text":"我們目前所啟動的是軍規商用所以目前是用了軍規商用的部分可是商用跟軍用是他就在一線之隔 只是用法上面的部分200公里為界限 200公里可以飛200公里以上的叫軍規軍用"},{"start":6259.706,"end":6279.884,"text":"軍規但是商用的是可以飛200公里以內的是叫軍規商用所以基本上目前你會把這個無人機這個部分放在軍工產業這邊就是因為它是軍規商用所以對台灣來講的時候如果說我們無人機要用變成軍規軍用其實也是很容易的對不對防禦上面沒有問題"},{"start":6280.524,"end":6304.252,"text":"OK 理解那針對無人艇的部分因為你在這邊的時候針對無人艇的部分目前我們還沒有完成一個國家隊的一個建立可是無人艇的部分在整個軍規軍用的部分某個部分也很近那針對這個部分我想說之後再給本辦公室一個清楚的一個資料好不好因為時間的關係是的好 謝謝"},{"start":6305.972,"end":6325.428,"text":"鄭委員我主席做一項宣告因為今天登記發言的委員非常多那為了在郭部長離開前讓所有委員都可以質詢到他所以我們就是減少發言的時間不是對郭部長特別好而是對本會以及所有委員好 謝謝好 現在請楊瓊英委員做詢答謝謝主席 楊瓊英發言 邀請部長郭部長"},{"start":6343.711,"end":6365.668,"text":"部長好 據媒體披露我們台電準備要提出漲價方案而且預估這個方案是整體電價平均漲幅6%民生住宅以及小商店用電幅度會更高介於11%到33%"},{"start":6368.45,"end":6379.334,"text":"以目前家庭平均每月用電338度的非夏月電價來做比較估計每一個月的電費要增加100多塊"},{"start":6381.434,"end":6384.737,"text":"所以在这样的一个情况之下本席要请教"},{"start":6410.994,"end":6420.798,"text":"用電越多漲幅越大的原則部長你有沒有知道這個事情那我們經濟部的立場究竟是什麼我們仍舊經濟部也是建議調漲嗎請說明"},{"start":6425.046,"end":6451.411,"text":"報告委員我想你也非常清楚電價的調漲不是經濟部決定的電價的調漲是電價審議委員會他們多數的人好 所以部長你有聽聞這樣子的方案嗎這一個部分請教基本上都不是我們台電裡面討論的方向好 所以剛剛本席所說的媒體暴露是沒有這回事嗎"},{"start":6452.071,"end":6478.261,"text":"媒體有很多他們會去所以你不知道這個訊息我不知道這個訊息好一個不知道訊息所以本席要請教經濟部的立場在目前台灣的面向你認為你仍舊在經濟部的立場還是以漲價為主嗎經濟部的立場就是綜合考量這個目前的經濟的動盪以及國人的需求"},{"start":6480.782,"end":6496.786,"text":"部長你這樣說就對了因為你是經濟部你一定會中和考量所以在你中和考量立即要到下個月四月份那你認為在目前中和考量的情況之下你現在還會認為漲價是好的方案嗎如果是台電今天是民營的企業的話"},{"start":6503.868,"end":6528.167,"text":"它勢必要漲價但是台電現在是國營的企業它必須要肩負國家照顧國人的這樣的一個任務所以這個任務我們非常的要重視所以剛才我想委員你所指教的部分也就是我們過去數年動漲的最重要的一個部分"},{"start":6528.968,"end":6553.608,"text":"那我們現在這樣就是說我們要請這個國家來補助台電然後因為過去動漲造成他的這個負債那這個負債已經舉債到92%了我們希望是這樣就是說如果能夠撥補給我們讓我們的這個舉債的空間有的話那對我們來講我想我們會做其他更好的努力啦"},{"start":6554.389,"end":6569.221,"text":"那我們現在就是有一點這個因為負債過大那剛才也有人講說你不要再增加舉債了啦舉債的話你這個利息更多等等所以我要跟委員報告您剛才所關心的部分也是我們關心的部分"},{"start":6570.356,"end":6595.016,"text":"但是我們沒有辦法在這個價格調整之前做出一個肯定的決定所以我們會把這些訊息包括委員所關心的這個內容都提供給電價審議委員會由他們斟酌讓他們去討論我相信在那些專家學者之間他們會討論出一個比較有智慧的這個決定好"},{"start":6597.437,"end":6602.34,"text":"剛剛部長我運用了一分多鐘的時間讓你說明我真的希望聽到政府的立場第一個你會提供民眾的聲音因為現在如果你一漲價通膨是非常的恐怖因為目前我們看到如果再漲尤其像媒體所披露的這個方案CPI可能會上升到2%甚至以上"},{"start":6625.07,"end":6632.377,"text":"這樣的一個情況市民大家有一個心聲長了就回不了頭尤其在現階段你身為經濟部部長你必須綜合台灣目前整個民生以及產業的樣態"},{"start":6639.983,"end":6663.276,"text":"那麼這點是非常重要 也請你將你剛剛善意的回應告訴電價委員會 務必在現階段如果連市民小電家 民生用電都如此的要高漲到更高的水準我想這是民眾沒有辦法接受的我們目的 政府要好好的讓民眾好生活 因為"},{"start":6663.996,"end":6689.252,"text":"在工業這個電價的部分呢最近這幾年也已經漲了數次在目前我們統計平均的單價已經高達4.29元所以本市還是要奉勸在先階段你要怎麼樣讓民生小店家能夠先安內先不要漲才不會導致通盆你願意這樣子的方向來建議給電價委員會嗎"},{"start":6692.194,"end":6710.948,"text":"謝謝委員的叮嚀我們一定會把你這些內容來向這個電價審議委員會報告不過我在這個地方向你說明一下我們基本上的原則對工業電價來講就是不能夠高於我們的競爭對手國"},{"start":6713.328,"end":6732.298,"text":"對所以你總是有一個防堵這個目的就是要真正照顧我們的產業嘛但是另外一項也就是我一直強調的本席民生跟小店家現在苦不堪言絕對不適合黨在這個階段我一定會提供給這個審議委員會"},{"start":6733.959,"end":6740.585,"text":"我相信你有這個能力因為我不希望你成為一個只有會漲價人家號稱你是漲價部長我不希望這個名稱因為卓榮泰卓榮泰說他是AI內閣我也不希望你是漲價部長卓榮泰不是AI內閣而成為漲價內閣"},{"start":6753.777,"end":6773.065,"text":"您剛才回答是你是經濟部長嗎我不是漲價部長你不是漲價部長所以你務必也不是水電部長對 也不是水電部長好 有gas所以我希望我們好好的來照顧民生這是一個非常重要的一個均衡的樣態接下來本席要請教"},{"start":6775.645,"end":6786.078,"text":"麥綠能那麼菲律賓的這個案子本席也聽到您說您會去實際上的一個這個考察什麼時候會去考察我們大概在這個"},{"start":6791.142,"end":6808.578,"text":"確定了以後會分批啦就是實際上面我個人什麼時候可以去可能就是我如果能夠請假出國的話那麼我就會去你非常想立即去是不是不是你一定有一個評估不要笑這個對台灣來講你一直漲價你解決不了台電的困境你的能源政策你要怎麼樣去調整這非常的重要"},{"start":6816.405,"end":6827.47,"text":"是 我們的專業的部分包括我們的能源局包括我們的公研院包括我們相關的這些專家他們會先走大約什麼時候應該是月底之前吧月底之前會出發那本席要請教因為本席在前半年一直跟你討論你也有回應但是你告訴我們的都是具可行性那具可行性也就是還在空想"},{"start":6843.656,"end":6851.161,"text":"還沒有實際行動但是我們剛剛看到你是具可行性但是你剛剛有說了你月底以前專家學者會出發是不是月底以前這是你現在告訴我們的因為在你書面答詢沒有這些資料所以我們要實際去討論接下來本席請問那到底你的工程費用"},{"start":6867.47,"end":6877.433,"text":"是多少 到底你要採用的運電的方式你要用什麼樣的方式你到底是原先說的海底電纜線還是這個電池的電池船的一個運輸那麼時程大概是什麼時候請說明報告委員 這個我們是不是可以另外給你報告"},{"start":6886.576,"end":6910.747,"text":"好 你給我報告 你有一個方案但是我還是要問你因為這個對我們國家來講是很重要的一個很重大的一個工程對 因為這個你們牽涉到有一些我不方便在這裡報告的問題所以本身要請教 那麼是不是台飛台飛也採用了什麼樣的方式來做合作我想這一點是非常的關鍵請說明 有沒有合作這個部分我們不方便在這裡不方便講沒關係 有沒有合作好 有沒有合作沒有"},{"start":6914.517,"end":6926.711,"text":"沒有合作好那我們也是希望也就是認真在推動是不是我們當然是積極的在推動好是一個積極在推動所以我們也希望"},{"start":6927.833,"end":6949.418,"text":"在整個能源的配比方式要怎麼做而不是就像本席剛才所說的這幾年民生也漲了幾次我不希望你成為一個漲價的部長那你剛才也說了你不是漲價部長最後一個議題本席要跟你討論的也就是我們這個大阪的這個"},{"start":6952.924,"end":6977.234,"text":"市博那當時我們在2022年的時候我回想我們一直在討論這20億我們要怎麼花那我們有一個條件因為以往在上海市博是沒有我們政府出資是台商自己募款那現在我們當然支持台灣的產業能夠在世界來展露所以因此最後我們"},{"start":6977.975,"end":6982.768,"text":"協商的結果也就是20億一毛不刪希望大家努力去做對不對"},{"start":6984.488,"end":6998.997,"text":"是不是 報告委員 這個是我們努力跟日本友好的關係我們本來我們在這個展覽 世博的展 我們不是會員所以我們是根本就不會受到邀請去參與 這個有主辦過部長 這個就是本席要跟你討論的 當時你承諾的是會多方的讓台灣來出現"},{"start":7009.384,"end":7037.25,"text":"甚至持續的透過管道判以這個希望以台灣管的面向來展出那現在我們是以teamwork的方式但是最近好像聽聞有媒體暴露也就是披露說日方認為台灣經濟部的官方網站在本月的6日發布的聲明內容是希望能夠更明確"},{"start":7039.81,"end":7046.832,"text":"去說明不是以政府的立場不是以台灣兩個字的名義來參展有沒有這回事請問有沒有這回事我們不是這個國際展覽局BIE的成員所以沒有辦法直接參展本席要請教日方有沒有最近6號有沒有這回事"},{"start":7061.956,"end":7088.895,"text":"你們經濟部有沒有收到 有沒有收到 請你告訴我我們接受日本的邀請 這個已經是非常大 人家非常給我們很大的所以我們21全力支持嘛 所以本席請教其中有變化的時候 是不是陳儒媒體所說經濟部有沒有接到這樣子的訊息 這樣子的這個不管是文也好 或者是我們的電子網 有沒有"},{"start":7091.877,"end":7107.723,"text":"有沒有請告訴本席你認為那個信度高嗎你不用問我認不認因為你是主席棄者你可以給社會大眾說到底有還是沒有我個人是沒有收到這樣的一個訊息你個人沒有經濟部有沒有"},{"start":7108.717,"end":7131.278,"text":"因為你是代表經濟部你不是個人那我剛才已經跟您報告就是我沒有收到你沒有收到好因為本席也不希望我們被污蔑這個就是我們在質詢當中能夠好好的去溝通說明清楚我們謝謝委員的這個垂詢其實我們到日本參展這件事情我們基本上是沒有"},{"start":7132.159,"end":7145.926,"text":"不是會員沒有資格去參展但是日本基於友好的這樣的一個關係邀請我們去參展所以這裡面當然有一些對我們有惡意的國家就會來挑撥離間會來見縫插針"},{"start":7149.568,"end":7165.218,"text":"所以我向委員這一部分你要了解我們同仁之間在穿梭這個案件的時候非常努力的千萬不要落入別人千萬不要落入這個輕痛愁快的這樣的一個境界"},{"start":7165.658,"end":7188.372,"text":"部長你現在說明的立場也就是全國國民的心聲我們也非常的希望政府部門可以說明清楚我們並沒有照你剛才說的我們經濟部並沒有收到這樣的訊息我們要讓國人安心因為20億大家全力的支持也就是希望讓台灣在世界能夠發光發熱是不是"},{"start":7190.478,"end":7203.015,"text":"我們去接受這個邀請去參展到別人家去做客我想我們有很多的事情必須要這按照主人的這個條件主人的這個規定來進行"},{"start":7205.458,"end":7234.64,"text":"不可能我们恣意乱行很多的人要求我们做一些我认为是没有这个太有意义的部分这个反而让我们自爱难行我想委员的这个好意应该也是这个部分所以让我们共同努力实际上让所有去看到在去参加这个展览的人都能够了解我们这个所谓的tech world这个馆是表现出"},{"start":7235.36,"end":7259.126,"text":"我們非常優異的部分對 所以在2022年部長你我本席再次強調也再次提醒 因為你在這裡有承諾也就是說我們既然不是在國家區我們好不容易也可以爭取到所以20億全力的支持也就是您所說的希望能夠透過各方的管道能夠讓台灣 台灣"},{"start":7261.987,"end":7288.179,"text":"臺灣的一個意向能夠在這當中來展露我想這是對於我們全國國民大家都非常的期待我也希望有任何不正確的訊息能夠透過經濟部也要嚴格去管控去說明清楚而不是隨波逐流我們的目的也就是希望讓我們的產業都能夠再次的強調是在世界看得到而且是跟世界接軌謝謝是 謝謝委員"},{"start":7290.72,"end":7307.55,"text":"好谢谢我们现在请陈廷飞委员做询答陈廷飞委员询答完休息五分钟谢谢赵伟后我们请部长郭部长"},{"start":7320.778,"end":7338.563,"text":"我們更期待的是把我們的特色跟精神要在世博的展場當中凸顯我想這個更重要所以我們在展場的佈置當中我們不能把我們自己的精神跟特色然後還有文化把它"},{"start":7339.656,"end":7359.945,"text":"放棄我覺得這個部分是很重要的其實我覺得名字雖然重要但是我們的價值我們的精神我們的文化跟我們的產業更為重要所以這個部分要拜託部長這也是我們希望透過各種管道能夠把台灣的量能"},{"start":7360.365,"end":7382.983,"text":"能夠展現出去那我們也知道現在我們遇到是一個派出兵不斷地用各種方式在打壓我們可是我們不能這樣就停止不前了我們更是要利用各種方式然後把台灣的特色 精神 文化 產業很直接地呈現出來那透過設計"},{"start":7385.117,"end":7398.465,"text":"我們的特色透過設計其實會展現不一樣的風貌所以這個部分再拜託部長是 報告委員我想世博是國際合作跟這個文化交流的重要平台"},{"start":7399.329,"end":7412.533,"text":"那我們用這個Tech World館除了向全球觀眾展示我國的科技創新實力也將豐富文化與生命活力爭取更多合作的機會謝謝委員剛才的這個勉勵所以厚色比什麼更重要"},{"start":7417.274,"end":7430.893,"text":"當我們有特色大家的目光焦點全部在我們身上的時候我們得到更多的交流機會這才是重要讓他用各種不同的方式看到我們台灣這個國家的軟實力"},{"start":7433.536,"end":7462.812,"text":"我相信這才是我們花了這20億很重要的關鍵所以我想我們必須體認我們遇到一個派出品可是我們不能停滯不前我們更應該往前走把台灣更不一樣的聲音與特色展現出來透過各種平台的交流所以再拜託部長我們希望給我們的紅人更多的鼓勵那場館的時間還有場館的特色我相信我們都要把它掌控住"},{"start":7463.392,"end":7471.058,"text":"再拜託部長部長在另外一個部分就是說我們一直圍繞在你身上的"},{"start":7471.997,"end":7496.762,"text":"尤其最近就是因為這個台積電赴美投資到底經濟部事前有沒有掌握光這個議題就連炒了好幾天部長我覺得你不可能沒有掌握啦我覺得從國安從經濟議題我們一定都要在每一個環節都掌握住可是可能有些時間點你"},{"start":7498.422,"end":7523.333,"text":"不應該也不能夠在第一時間做一個很清楚的看法跟對外的說明所以而被誤解了所以既然今天台積電赴美投資這已經很確定了我讓你一個時間你跟我們說一下到底你清不清楚這整個台積電的赴美投資案的狀況"},{"start":7524.329,"end":7551.616,"text":"報告委員我想謝謝你給我這樣的一個機會能夠在這個地方澄清這一件事情台積電到美國投資這件事情從總統開始以下經濟部我們其實都參與這樣的一個過程那每一個人負擔的這個內容會不一樣經濟部當然是知道台積電會去投資那我們把關的地方是在投審會"},{"start":7552.976,"end":7576.447,"text":"把關的地方在投審會那我想總統跟這個台積電的互動那麼總統我們包括我們的國安包括我們的整個行政院的長官都是一樣都參與這樣的一個討論但是分工分工那經濟部做什麼事情經濟部當然不是只有台積電投資這件事情包括美國的這些關稅啊各方面的新政府他們的措施會怎麼樣"},{"start":7577.327,"end":7604.566,"text":"所以經濟部只扮演一個搜尋這個資訊提供正確的這個資訊給陳鋒他們來做最後的判斷也給台積電做一個比較完整的這個參考這個大家對我的誤會說你都不知道我怎麼可能不知道我是說那一天我接受訪問的時候那個主持人問我說1000億你知不知道"},{"start":7605.964,"end":7616.722,"text":"跟委員報告這個是我很多不能說的部分所以我想大家可以諒解這種部分其實坦白講"},{"start":7618.462,"end":7634.119,"text":"我們去的時候沒有這個數字他大概跟我們應該說大概他要設多少個幾座的晶圓廠還有這個先進的封裝設施或是研發中心他有一個範圍的金額去"},{"start":7636.682,"end":7649.236,"text":"我說我這個人太老實了但如果問我說你這個知道嗎我真的那個數目金額不知道可是他要投資的規模是知道的非常清楚對所以我覺得說因為一句話所以部長以後"},{"start":7653.661,"end":7682.318,"text":"我們如果說 我要更精準的回答問題沒錯就是說很清楚說我們知道規模可是金額我們還是要尊重台積電自己的宣布嘛因為我們又不是台積電是 謝謝委員知道所以部長這個就是媒體這當中有時候就一句話就會被很多的不一樣的解讀我們就說怎麼可能會不知道而且我們所清楚的在這事前是很多不能講"},{"start":7683.618,"end":7699.349,"text":"從國安從經濟面那今天因為在這整個台積電的量能對於這個投資對我們台灣的基本面是沒有影響的因為他整個know-how跟研發的關鍵還是在台灣這才是重點"},{"start":7700.009,"end":7714.187,"text":"所以這當中包括我們的總統包括部長包括各單位都跟台積電非常掌控所有這個訊息所以我覺得這要說清楚否則會讓我們很多的民眾會有擔憂說"},{"start":7716.85,"end":7743.765,"text":"台積電這麼嚴重要去美國投資我們不知道不是不知道而是在每一個時間點我們該說的該做的有不一樣的分工而且當台積電畢竟它還是一間上市的公司它很多的一些必須宣布的還是要由它自己來宣布不能是我們政府來宣布所以這個部分還是要很清楚去做很多的一個"},{"start":7744.625,"end":7750.008,"text":"報告委員這個新聞如果不是台積電自己發布出來的我們都不予評論"},{"start":7771.471,"end":7786.09,"text":"這是跟台積電的問題嘛是台積電沒有發布的訊息我們怎麼去評論這個這可能是對很多想到消息或是不一樣的解讀就像一句話會被不一樣解讀所以"},{"start":7787.611,"end":7808.628,"text":"其實台積電我們在強調它是一個在台灣上市的公司然後在國際間是一個非常重要指標性的一個大廠所以它今天要做任何的所謂的擴展或是有任何的投資基本上是要由它自己來宣布"},{"start":7809.048,"end":7831.19,"text":"對沒有錯他一定會發重訊像這種事情他一定要發重訊所以他沒有這個確認的事情我想在坊間大家的傳聞經濟部的立場就是不予評論所以部長我們還是認為這個我們不予評論但是有一個重點是我們也要準備好就是說隨時如果萬一"},{"start":7832.051,"end":7853.702,"text":"他真的对外宣布了我们有没有准备好了我想那一天我问了相关单位基本上大家其实是准备好的我们都有非常多的simulation很多的基本假设如果这样子我们怎么做这样子做怎么做我想这么大的一个公司对国家影响这么大的一个作为"},{"start":7855.471,"end":7882.142,"text":"經濟部沒有基本假設沒有提早因應這個是不可能的所以我覺得這個我們應該講出來讓民眾知道我們政府會因應各種狀況的發生那我們前提就是不會影響到我們台灣的經濟也不會影響我們整個所謂的半導體或是我們相關產業的一個進步跟成長這個是很重要謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":7884.226,"end":7885.707,"text":"好 謝謝 現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":7919.181,"end":7920.783,"text":"嗯嗯嗯嗯"},{"start":7951.495,"end":7951.956,"text":"後來報仇"},{"start":7979.384,"end":7992.733,"text":"那我可以講 你們那你可以點頭來幫忙 幫忙一下幫忙一下 我們傳達給父母親 我們就幫忙他其實想講幾句他有說 中國文大靠幾十年了他有編成也有編成那我就要請他 請他申請長片 長片有編"},{"start":8025.84,"end":8026.761,"text":"我一定要死"},{"start":8051.713,"end":8059.979,"text":"就借一下手掌跟揍一下就揍了 等一下 祝祝 不好意思 不好意思"},{"start":8082.014,"end":8083.599,"text":"手留書 筆記 書籍謝謝 謝謝 請你早安"},{"start":8090.084,"end":8090.964,"text":"太酷了 太酷了"},{"start":8119.051,"end":8119.672,"text":"谢谢大家"},{"start":8148.144,"end":8149.065,"text":"我怎麼厲害吧"},{"start":8174.889,"end":8178.21,"text":"要開始囉要開始囉先開回來啦"},{"start":8208.96,"end":8231.969,"text":"現在開始開會我們請鄭天才委員做詢答主席 郭委員 有請部長郭部長"},{"start":8238.903,"end":8261.638,"text":"部長好委員長這個嘴電雙掌這個是我們非常不希望的這個左院長特別說時機未定但是就這個部長啊"},{"start":8263.561,"end":8289.357,"text":"部長說水龍頭轉開就有水這是成本很高的事情當然這個水的部分有很多的因素以台灣來講本來不應該是切水的但是很多的因素所以怎麼樣去做一個合理的處理那電尤其是電尤其是電我們看這個電費"},{"start":8292.208,"end":8304.053,"text":"降價的這個歷史當然有漲有降但是如果我們看這幾年呢從2022年10月漲8.4%2023年4月漲11%然後2024年4月漲"},{"start":8320.739,"end":8349.341,"text":"2024年10月也漲漲的比例都很高所以下個月4月份審議委員會要開會了是不是是的所以這個部分很多的因素必須去思考部長去年剛上任的時候我是非常期待"},{"start":8351.257,"end":8376.344,"text":"因為你曾經也發表過有關核能的部分但是後來你這個比較不講了這個前幾天啊總統府氣候變遷委員會副召集人合授董事長童子仙昨天核電可以免省好幾千億元啊N千億元"},{"start":8381.744,"end":8410.581,"text":"他也特別提到2023年前台灣的用電2821.4億度如果用全部用太陽能發電的話太陽能發電的話需要10.5個台北市的土地為產生足夠的電河二河三的發電效率非常好成本非常低"},{"start":8412.695,"end":8437.173,"text":"根據台電去年公布的發電成本資料每一度電1.42元所以台電向民間購入的風力和太陽能的發電成本分別為6.59元4.87元差別很大所以部長你是經濟的專家"},{"start":8441.6,"end":8469.225,"text":"業界出來的這個成本應該要非常的清楚非常的清楚當然他還提到這個後面的這我就時間的關係就不再念了所以一開始其實我之前一開始你上任的時候我就講過在這邊講過所以你應該召集核電的專家台電來去做討論"},{"start":8471.226,"end":8494.996,"text":"仔細仔細的討論然後要就我們這8年多來甚至9年來在在這個力能的這方面投入了多少的經費然後包括台電要去買這些電又投入了多少經費這個這樣去算"},{"start":8497.574,"end":8521.829,"text":"如果你是你的話絕對不可能這樣如果這個事業給你做的話不可能這樣不可能像這樣的方式嗎這個部分所以這個部分這個請部長來繼續的來努力這個是我們所期待的就是不要再漲電不要再漲水也不要漲好接下來"},{"start":8525.759,"end":8553.045,"text":"這個談這個跟台電沒有關係了跟水利署有關係水利署這個本席有請這個經濟部上次我諮詢的時候有答覆了從111 111 112 113這幾年了在花蓮投入的相關的這個中央管河川及海岸"},{"start":8554.056,"end":8580.986,"text":"其實主要都是中央管合篡的所投入的經費這個代理部署長請問一下署長以110年然後這個2億在花蓮這個大概是三十分之一吧整個你們的總預算差不多三十分之一可能還更低投入的真的很少"},{"start":8583.447,"end":8608.114,"text":"而且整個都是修整修整件的部分只有一筆整件的部分只有一筆其他都是修都是修我上次也舉過這個例子花蓮大橋到葉美部落193線道一颱風就彈芳一颱風就下雨彈芳"},{"start":8610.874,"end":8638.255,"text":"其實很重要的因素就是花蓮溪的整治這個堤防對不對上次我也講過所以這個部分要投入要投入我再舉第二個例子北岡大橋它相關無事了但是因為你們把這個河川七一線劃得很大已經有堤防了"},{"start":8639.605,"end":8664.563,"text":"已經有提防了我的前輩楊榮福立委的時候好不容易提防提防提防蓋了就是要去解決我們土地的問題了我們沒有發生災害了我們是希望我們的土地不要一直變成河川其一的土地不要一直變成水利用地然後能夠把土地的產權能夠給我們還給我們就這樣而已"},{"start":8668.615,"end":8696.995,"text":"堤防也蓋了結果河川七一線越劃越大河川七一線劃到這個堤防的跟部落子之間這很奇怪大概前台灣可能是唯一的還是唯一的一例我不知道為什麼既然是要這樣繼續河川七一線要這樣堤防再蓋啊再拉長啊"},{"start":8698.871,"end":8726.983,"text":"提防在拉長這個部分請水利署仔細的去考量不是考量去做另外也讓部長知道有時候這個地方這個是台東成功鎮八翁部落多翁段的這海岸海岸"},{"start":8729.2,"end":8751.672,"text":"這個海岸被沖洗有房子有住家住家已經快被清洗了海岸還不做推來推去跟地方政府推來推去然後這個是私有土地當然是要保護私有土地"},{"start":8752.898,"end":8777.828,"text":"然後這個有零物質的土地 零液屬的土地國有土地也要保護啊 不要避免台灣變成越來越小啊所以海岸管理法14條規定得很清楚啊為防治海岸災害 預防海水倒灌國土流失 國土流失啊私有土地跟公有土地多是國土"},{"start":8778.871,"end":8804.998,"text":"保護民眾生命財產安全海岸地區有限公司者得失其嚴重性化作為一級或二級海岸防護區而且這個都是要由誰中央主管機關來去做所以這個部分請這個署長立即去處理好不好好謝謝部長好謝謝委員"},{"start":8807.21,"end":8834.151,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請邱志偉委員做詢答那謝謝主席 我請經濟部的郭部長是不是能源署那個代理署長對 蔡代理署長"},{"start":8835.987,"end":8859.813,"text":"市長你好經濟部的書面報告跟口頭報告的資料我都看過了今天不提台積電因為大家都要提台積電昨天晚上睡不著夜觀天象東方群星燦爛一片明亮西方"},{"start":8862.32,"end":8886.932,"text":"這個星群暗淡我有一兩顆的星在閃爍所以我覺得台灣台積電還是永遠台積電富國神山永遠是富國神山天象可以看出這個台積電的未來走向從你的報告來說你的境外關內境外關內你在捷克"},{"start":8888.15,"end":8913.382,"text":"貿易投資中心設立了福岡馬上設立那你的境內境外關內在你的書面報告又跟這個大健康產業生態系結合我就混淆了捷克這個貿易投資中心你配置多少人力你預期要招多少商那福岡台灣貿易中心你要配置多少人力又怎麼樣跟大健康產業生態系結合"},{"start":8914.795,"end":8924.244,"text":"因為我有點confuse所以我請教您一下是 報告委員我想境外關聯的意思就是說在我們台灣之外的"},{"start":8925.457,"end":8930.681,"text":"我們現在是目前以我們國貿署的同仁住在住外外館的商業組的目前一位或者兩位一位兩位要變成一個台灣貿易投資中心"},{"start":8948.374,"end":8966.703,"text":"要做境外關內的政策能力會不會不足啊我們會請 未來在福岡福岡要成立台灣貿易中心也是一兩位貿易組的同仁經濟部派出的這個諸外同仁他們有這個能力做一條龍的服務嗎報告委員我們會local high"},{"start":8968.318,"end":8985.855,"text":"會邀請當地的人 有人脈關係的人來加入我們的這個陣容Local High是不是專業的 我們必須要考慮他有沒有專業能力好 我們一年時間來檢驗你的境外官內的政策執行的狀況是 是"},{"start":8987.657,"end":9008.773,"text":"然後這個到底創造多少產值 服務多少廠商另外你說要跟大健康產業生態系的結合用境外觀念 我就覺得奇怪怎麼突然講到大健康產業報告委員 我想大健康產業是這樣子總統曾經 總統在上任以後講說要健康台灣但是跟境外觀念有關係嗎"},{"start":9010.462,"end":9030.598,"text":"這境外觀內有關係嗎?境內觀外有關係嗎?境內觀外的部分我們希望提供一些比較優惠的地方那麼讓外國的人進來我們台灣你的報告是說境內觀外打造大健康產業生態系我真的有點迷惑"},{"start":9031.559,"end":9052.832,"text":"我有點看不懂是不是我的認知能力這個部分我是不是到委員辦公室去跟你做一個解說另外你要推動成立F16維修中心啊2016奉展計畫的時候我們在國安委員會是支持這個預算奉展計畫有幾架這個F16你知道嗎140架F16AB提升到F16V後續要採購66架的F16V你要設立一個F16維修中心"},{"start":9060.615,"end":9087.007,"text":"維修中心是你要結合漢翔結合其他的這個軍工產業對不對是到底能夠發揮什麼樣的縱效那是維修中心是所有F-16戰機不管是16V還是升級到AB是經過你們維修中心在做還是有軍方呢報告委員您的數字是我們國內的數字你還可以做國外F-16"},{"start":9088.341,"end":9113.274,"text":"也是 但這部分牽扯 抱歉我沒有辦法在這個地方做詳細的報告這是機密是吧對那我這個機密我就覺得如果用機密預算用機密會議可以請教一下我第一次聽到你這個想法好 那我請教在亞洲有F16的包 以色列也有啦還有哪些國家有他們願意讓我們來維修嗎"},{"start":9114.754,"end":9142.128,"text":"這個部分我相信這個在國安的系統所以我跟您確定我們的商源不僅是我們國內的L16一百四十架一架六十六架其他國家L16都有可能在我們台灣維修就是對我們民主同盟的國家都願意在我們這邊維修都會有可能難怪最近軍工股股大漲另外從你的報告裡面"},{"start":9143.602,"end":9145.015,"text":"五大信貸產業當然固然是重點"},{"start":9146.479,"end":9175.215,"text":"但是對傳統產業你要怎麼去提振轉型這個幾乎沒有任何篇幅在做任何的描述有我相信看過了真的沒有啦你對傳統產業扣建業怎麼輔導鋼鐵怎麼輔導石化怎麼輔導你應該有詳細的對策或者你要有一個白皮書怎麼樣對傳統產業讓他們能夠恢復競爭力降低成本種種真的你也有報告我書面報告我很詳細看因為我做高齡的時間很多"},{"start":9176.255,"end":9195.1,"text":"我從頭看到尾就是沒有傳統產業那你也知道中南部都是傳統產業他們也會看報告是不是在經濟部沒有重視傳統產業他很煩惱所以你要從經濟部的高度來做全面性的宣示說政府是高度重視傳統產業的轉型他們認為他們已經是棄嬰棄兒"},{"start":9201.598,"end":9227.312,"text":"氣質好像大家把所有資源都放在這個AI半導體他們有這種認知一旦認知變成他們的意識形態變成他們的想法的話那就我覺得是我們政府的問題所以這部分我希望說這部分能夠加強對傳統產業的協助跟發展那李君理理署長潛力長子的階段目前是這樣子對不對"},{"start":9229.801,"end":9238.825,"text":"那未來區塊開發的階段,你覺得這兩個階段目前問題在哪裡呢?現階段是他們需要協助的是資金的問題,因為俄烏戰爭之後,那麼他們的成本上漲那資金的問題就會形成...我問你,這兩年投資的金額有幾億?"},{"start":9254.768,"end":9279.109,"text":"大概總共加起來大概總共大概會將近一兆元的投資在那邊一兆元投資對是你確定這個數字是正確的是你看一下你的報告你現在離一兆元還很還非常大累計就是說完工以後107到114你們進場投資在894億對不對你要到一兆什麼時候到一兆啊"},{"start":9279.349,"end":9304.876,"text":"就是說我們目前合準的5.7GW通通完成我們是一個兆元的計畫預計我們大概在2026年的11月以前會全部都完成會到一兆的投資金額啊是是這個我是一個我們可以跟委員再報告一兆是你現在要增加10倍是"},{"start":9305.816,"end":9309.561,"text":"哇 如果你們達成我是覺得你們可以得到諾貝爾經濟學獎"},{"start":9314.413,"end":9340.21,"text":"另外啊這個你們要在報告裡面寫說這台電增資不成撥補不成所造成的影響你們採取的是什麼造成什麼樣衝擊跟影響必須要來龍去龍要交代很清楚在你們報告裡面也要讓全民知道這撥補在藍白的這個決議之下撥補沒有通過預算沒有通過所以勢必要反映在合理的電價"},{"start":9341.431,"end":9342.915,"text":"所以是不是這次定價漲定了?"},{"start":9347.475,"end":9373.167,"text":"報告委員 電價的部分是由電價審議委員會透過專家學者你也是委員嘛 你是召集人嘛決定的這部分你也是召集人嘛我不是反正這個審議委員會一定是橫出他的財務狀況所以我覺得好像這個情境來看必須好像是非常不可那非常不可的原因為什麼會造成非常不可可以不漲的呢"},{"start":9374.827,"end":9389.436,"text":"那原因究竟在哪裡 我希望另外 那個進步要好好對外說明另外最後一個30秒的問題我很少被按兩次鈴30秒請吳明昌台談吳董事長董事長"},{"start":9397.185,"end":9408.994,"text":"這個您知道 您在台南現在台南有一個棒球村亞太棒球村高雄你也知道我已經爭取十年了十年不是不短的歲月人生有幾個十年"},{"start":9410.27,"end":9437.944,"text":"我要爭取這個北高雄棒球村我們也有很好的基礎 對不對你也有跟這個我們職棒球團接觸他們也有這個意願來用他們資金來開發你們提供處理來合作來撇去一個這個北高雄的棒球村就類似於台南亞太這是美式衣裝我聽到你的這個有這個想法過去的歷任董事長基本上都是相對比較消極"},{"start":9439.085,"end":9466.846,"text":"只有你比較積極那從你的積極的態度來看目前有沒有最新的進度我知道有一個球團很大的球團他要對這一塊他們要開發非常有興趣目前您了解的狀況是怎麼樣報告委員我們再積極的跟大家這樣介紹那這個棒球室是有四個棒球場同時進行是國際性的那那個我知道委員已經有爭取了十幾年那這個是非常不得了的事情"},{"start":9467.927,"end":9491.78,"text":"我們那個台糖一定全力配合把那個土地那剛好15公頃剛好可以做一個棒球村M7的那個特色國際性的OK我希望說一年之內有個具體的進度跟成果最後15秒我再發表一下我的想法這個台電的基層農人是非常辛苦"},{"start":9493.025,"end":9513.823,"text":"颱風天來 下雨天來 他們要去確保供電的穩定把停電的狀況迅速恢復 真的非常辛苦啊但是他們的辛苦卻得不到立法院的支持我作為經濟委員會成員 我的心情無比的沉重"},{"start":9515.473,"end":9544.121,"text":"為什麼我們沒有辦法支持但我必須要說明我們在經濟委員會在審查預算的時候是我當造委主審的這個一千億的撥補是有通過的我們是這個凍結三十億通過這台電的撥補預算但很遺憾莫名其妙在朝野協商的時候不曉得哪邊天外飛來一筆是一個完全沒有在經濟委員會出現的一個我不曉得他叫什麼名字是一個立法委員"},{"start":9545.683,"end":9574.785,"text":"提案 所有一千億檢列不只是藍白也有同樣提案所以我們在委會討論的這個昏天案例討論到這真的面紅耳赤做出了結論他一個提案就把他否決了藍一案白一案那我們對我們在場三位的這個這個執政黨的這個同仁是非常不公平的所以我覺得"},{"start":9582.369,"end":9603.527,"text":"所以我希望說這個國民黨同仁都很認真也用他們專業去審查這個經濟部跟國營事業預算但是問題出在這個朝野協商的時候不曉得他們黨團哪一個人啊是出於什麼動機 出於什麼理由一千億 全部把它否決掉"},{"start":9604.805,"end":9627.24,"text":"這可能 三位同仁啊雖然我們不同黨好 謝謝我們不同黨 但我們同心是為了台電為了國家能源的穩定啊時間已經超過了七分鐘了真的喔超過七分鐘 謝謝我以後會檢討一下是是謝謝我們沒有真的面貌是我們真的和諧的來討論我們的預算好 謝謝志偉委員 謝謝請張家俊委員質詢"},{"start":9640.51,"end":9643.372,"text":"主席我想請郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":9654.465,"end":9662.169,"text":"總統府去年6月成立了全社會防衛任性委員會首次實地演練已經規劃在3月27日在台南舉行"},{"start":9669.032,"end":9692.348,"text":"據我所知這一次經濟部也是受邀參加演習不曉得部長知不知道這件事情知道那這次經濟部負責的部分是哪一個部分呢應該是生活上面的部分類似大概你們參加的會是哪一些單位呢這個"},{"start":9698.242,"end":9706.332,"text":"市長跟你報告好不好好啊市長那你說大概是哪一些單位會參加呢這個您說的是"},{"start":9709.85,"end":9736.785,"text":"所以次長也不知道這個是應該是內政部辦的是內政部啊基本上是總統府的委員會辦的但是呢經濟部這一次也在被邀請的範圍之內那本席現在就是想了解說請問經濟部參加的大概是哪些單位哪些人員大概有多少人所以目前是次長部長"},{"start":9738.166,"end":9752.944,"text":"所有經濟部的所屬單位都不知道嗎不是跟委員報告這個因為現在目前的這個活動還在規劃當中啦3月27下個禮拜就要就要開始了你們都還不知道誰要參加"},{"start":9754.686,"end":9776.218,"text":"對我們第一個我們是配合單位第二個就是說這個因為是涉及到演習它是一個形同演習的所以我們可能不方便在這個地方提出那會等到這個已經確定了以後那由內政部會統一向還有國土辦會向這個我希望說你們可以盡快的理解一下到底是誰會參加是台電嗎是中油嗎"},{"start":9780.86,"end":9790.268,"text":"還是台塘也要參加還是水利署要參加這個總是要有一個方向吧如果假設是民生的話像部長講的是生活的話大概是哪些單位會參加我們也想要理解那去年經濟部就有說要增加這個天然氣的儲存量到14天但是目前據我所知這個安全存量才一個禮拜左右"},{"start":9806.522,"end":9831.534,"text":"那這是在沒有任何危機發生的情況之下那如果假設真的不幸有任何的危機發生的話天然氣馬上就無法使用了那目前經濟部有沒有做過推演我們的這個備援計畫台灣大概可以撐幾天呢報告委員我想您所指證的這些部分我想我們都有備援的計畫"},{"start":9832.745,"end":9860.856,"text":"那有一些備援計畫的內容不便在這裡跟各位說所以您不知道是我們現在可以備援幾天嗎我們都非常清楚所以是一個禮拜是準確嗎一個禮拜是準確嗎這應該是公開的我們比這個要多很多啦但是我們不能夠在這個地方公開的講我們可以到委員的辦公室跟你們報告所以是可以超過一個禮拜當然是可以超過一個禮拜太好了"},{"start":9861.576,"end":9891.019,"text":"部長接下來我想我也想要再關心一下這個有關於台積電台積電就是這個月初宣布說要到美國去擴大投資的消息那很多人都擔憂說我們台灣半導體產業外移那人才流失甚至會衝擊國家安全那但是您在廣播節目上表示說台積電的決定您事先是毫不知情那到底是知情還是不知情呢"},{"start":9891.679,"end":9916.406,"text":"報告委員我怎麼可能不知情前一天我想總統跟魏董事長在公開的記者會上面已經講得很清楚整個政府相關單位都在討論這件事情我當然是知情只是那一天主持人問我一千億這個金額你知不知道我不能夠講"},{"start":9918.512,"end":9924.885,"text":"所以我在講說這個一千億事實上一千億坦白講我不知道因為它是一個範圍"},{"start":9926.581,"end":9942.832,"text":"但是主持人問了一個非常具體的數字我沒有辦法因為我不知道是一千億還是八百億還是一千兩百億所以我當然一千億我不知道這個你知道回答這個問題但是有很多人斷章取義所有人不知道這件事怎麼會負責全國經濟大政的部長台積電這麼重大的決策我當然知道我當然知道"},{"start":9957.142,"end":9971.503,"text":"報告委員其實這個都是在歪樓啦對啊你想看看以你高度的智慧應該可以判斷這個事情是歪樓我個人來講我這麼重要的任務我怎麼可能不知道"},{"start":9971.823,"end":9978.028,"text":"就是斷章取義是100億你知不知道而延伸到這整個計畫是數字的問題所以我很擔心說這個經濟部變成文書處理單位因為畢竟經濟部尤其您就是經濟總舵手所以這一點也藉這個機會讓所有人都知道說這個是一個"},{"start":9995.28,"end":10004.006,"text":"我不是不知道有一些內容不能夠就其中的一個數字是那接下來本席也想要問有關於說卓院長有講過台積電赴美投資是用"},{"start":10011.391,"end":10015.834,"text":"N-1的這個規定 就是說我們的美國的製程必須落後台灣廠一個世代以上那目前N-1的明文規範僅是於對中國大陸的投資那對於其他的海外市場並沒有明確的這個強制規定說要求N-1那換而言之這個N-1的原則"},{"start":10034.488,"end":10044.137,"text":"到目前為止是一個口頭承諾並非是一個真正具有約束力的規範那部長請問您有沒有什麼想法說要來確保這個N-1的規定落實嗎"},{"start":10047.813,"end":10066.861,"text":"好 報告委員我想就科學的角度來看這個命題N-1它是自然而存在的所有的企業往海外走離開了台灣到世界任何一個地方我想它一定要想去那個地方賺錢所以它不可能把一個"},{"start":10068.154,"end":10092.167,"text":"不確定的事實或者不穩定的製程移過去所以它自然而然在台灣一個成熟穩定可以賺錢的這個製程那美國不會給壓力嗎他們不想要最先進的製程嗎是啊它是最先進的但是最先進這裡面各位知道我們所謂半導體的製程每一個階段大概有兩年"},{"start":10093.067,"end":10114.859,"text":"都是在那個階段你是兩年的頭還是兩年的尾都是在那個縱裡面所以我想這個區間上面表達得非常的清楚就是失去我們的國際優勢然後目前世界上有很多的國家都有類似的國家利益防衛條款那就是說政府立法要求"},{"start":10115.419,"end":10141.473,"text":"具有戰略意義的公司在推動這個技術轉移啊資產重組啊甚至有涉及這個國家安全的行動時必須獲得國家政府的這個批准那以確保我們的核心技術不外流那這個就有包括說美國的這個ECRA我講我們的機關不以核准的大概有以下六項第一"},{"start":10142.634,"end":10168.102,"text":"影響國家安全您剛剛所說的第二對國家經濟發展有不利影響的第三違反國際條約或協定之義務第四侵害智慧財產權第五違反勞動基準法引發重大勞資糾紛尚未解決的第四破壞國家形象所以以上六項的這一個過程之後到達我們投審會一律拒絕"},{"start":10169.062,"end":10172.784,"text":"是所以我也希望說部長也要做一個把關的這個動作因為另外我們擔心的是台積電的董事會的結構它其實是日益國際化有很多其他的包括具有這個美國政府背景的這個董事那請問部長假設我做一個問題這是一個假設性的問題如果未來董事會的決策"},{"start":10193.194,"end":10217.044,"text":"出現台灣跟美國利益有衝突的時候我們政府有沒有什麼機制可以確保台灣的利益不受損呢我想委員您這個假設問題比較大一點是不是可以具體一下哪一個地方違反什麼樣的利益就是說假設在董事會上面我們董事會決定說把先進更先進的製程違反這個N-1的話"},{"start":10221.046,"end":10244.136,"text":"你會這樣怎麼辦呢請你隨身回答董事會必須要替公司提出可以賺錢盈利獲利的這樣的一個責任但我們現在是在討論包括國家安全是不是這個是不可能的一個事實任何一個董事他必須要為這個公司賺錢如果假設這個公司只是賺錢然後影響到了這個國家安全因為現在有好幾位"},{"start":10250.839,"end":10276.751,"text":"這個美國人也加入了這個董事會所以呢我現在就是要提醒你提醒你提醒你務必做好準備確保台灣的經濟與技術的主導權不會受損害我們主管機關我剛才已經跟您報告了那個六項它只要影響國家的安全或者影響國家的經濟跟不利的影響這個我們不會允許好 加油謝謝"},{"start":10282.953,"end":10293.226,"text":"請謝一鋒召委諮詢謝謝主席 我想請郭部長請郭部長"},{"start":10302.366,"end":10323.235,"text":"我想要請問一下川普總統3月17號的時候他在社交媒體說他說要用beautiful and clean的煤來發電就是美麗又潔淨的那所以市場都預期未來美國的煤會增產"},{"start":10326.601,"end":10350.72,"text":"我們也聽到了AIT的古麗妍處長說美國他們可以滿足台灣能源的需求無論是液化天然氣再生能源或核能那前三項就是古麗妍說的這三項都是比較符合目前我們台灣的能源未來的規劃"},{"start":10352.642,"end":10376.219,"text":"川普總統說的這個捷徑的煤那如果未來他會不會有可能要求我們增加採購報告委員這個我可不可以請台電董事長跟你回應那個報告委員那個我們的燃煤機組目前就是只有五部超超臨界燃煤機組"},{"start":10377.239,"end":10402.188,"text":"所以我們以目前來看台電的機組的配置燃煤量是一定有一個上限的而且根據大院的決議在審台電的預算的時候其實我的燃煤採購量也在逐年下降當中所以即便是川普總統要求我們目前都沒有辦法增加對煤的採購量對不對"},{"start":10406.395,"end":10416.808,"text":"這個短期內應該有困難我想請這個董事長再繼續報告委員我們現在在進行的整個減碳的基礎更新規劃"},{"start":10419.067,"end":10446.368,"text":"興達的機組已經陸陸續續要除役台中的機組我們現在接下來二期開始啟動以後也會陸續的只要機組上來它就會開始燃煤量都會開始逐步下降那至於我們現在就是新增就是最近幾年投資的新的機組超超臨界的燃煤機組雖然它的排放量很低可是目前來看我們沒有新的燃煤機組的規劃"},{"start":10448.499,"end":10461.193,"text":"所以我們整體的購煤的上限是會受到我們機組運轉數的影響要大幅增加的可能性是很小很小的那如果他要求呢"},{"start":10465.202,"end":10481.766,"text":"我認為這些事情我們必須要跟他理性的討論理性的討論我想就這個事實來跟他們請教所以我想要增加有困難我想美國應該會有考慮我們的這個建議"},{"start":10485.849,"end":10512.163,"text":"因為你知道嘛4月2號所有國家的關稅號碼都要公佈嘛那這個時候是磋商的這個關鍵的期間啊那會不會在減少這個貿易逆差的時候那美國會要求我們就是加大除了就是說過去我們看到的核能天然氣還有再生能源等等那會不會多增加要求沒呢"},{"start":10514.547,"end":10519.358,"text":"這樣子的一個變數關係我們會列入考慮我們這個會提供給這個談判單位作為參考好"},{"start":10524.571,"end":10547.757,"text":"那還有我們知道其實除了剛才諸位委員所說的希望部長要了解到說民眾不希望漲電價即便是產業漲電價都有可能轉嫁到民生的用品上面那所以物價的上漲等等的因素"},{"start":10548.097,"end":10562.754,"text":"非常的重要除了剛才部長所重視的就是我們國家的電價比其他我們在製造業上面競爭國家的電價如果有就是說我們不比"},{"start":10563.134,"end":10577.935,"text":"就是不能夠超過他們以外我們必須要考慮到就是漲電量會對於民生所造成的影響所以你要把我們本院委員所有的意見充分的轉達給電價審議委員會可以嗎"},{"start":10579.938,"end":10605.615,"text":"市的委員這個部分我們一定會如實的提供給電價審議委員會參考好還有喔在你最新的報告裡面你也提到了在菲律賓種電然後不管是用就是電池船或者是電纜短期內啦當然電纜是不可行因為電纜沒有建置嘛那"},{"start":10606.175,"end":10623.933,"text":"我長期就是說用電動船就電池船來運送這個電力都是有難度的那甚至就是有可能是不會完成的那你又在去年的10月31號表示"},{"start":10626.215,"end":10645.261,"text":"如果在美國跟日本協助下參與禮送的經濟走廊這個計畫那是希望落實你境外關內的政策把低階的封裝高耗能的石化鋼鐵業移到菲律賓去"},{"start":10646.081,"end":10667.396,"text":"那你就說了重電的可行性很難那是不是代表你想要推動的就是把低階的封裝高耗能的石化以及鋼鐵業移到菲律賓那這樣子的情況對於我們國家的勞工的就業衝擊以及經濟影響的"},{"start":10671.939,"end":10698.024,"text":"成长的影响那你有什么样的评估报告委员我想参与这个旅送经济走廊这个命题应该是他们美国日本跟菲律宾之间的决议那我们能不能够参与我想这个变数还蛮大的那我们只是说我们在这个过程里面我们必须要考虑我们台湾的整体的发展"},{"start":10698.644,"end":10725.912,"text":"那因為台灣要擴增各方面的這個發展的時候我們當然提出一個建議去做說如果今天我們讓台灣的綠電業者可以到海外去增加他的市場這個台灣因為我想我們的地方有限然後我們能夠發展綠電的這個空間也有限所以我們到這個菲律賓去發展因為菲律賓的這個土地非常的大那我們在評估所以會寫出一個評估計畫書"},{"start":10728.433,"end":10743.208,"text":"那這個評估計畫書看起來在那個地方創綠電是可行的因為綠電應該都在兩三塊錢那我講過了就是說我買電跟我鼓勵國內的廠商去那邊創電這個是不同的這個計畫"},{"start":10746.471,"end":10767.548,"text":"如果今天我們的國內的業者發展這個綠電的業者他在海外有能夠擴張他的這個市場的時候他就可以提供綠電他在菲律賓提供他的綠電給我們在那個地方如果我們能夠做大型的這個工業區也就是我在提倡的境外關內的這個工業區那麼這個是一個這個這個"},{"start":10771.651,"end":10789.794,"text":"非常讓大家可以移動的生產移動的這個部分那這個部分裡面他可以得到最重要就是他需要有電有水那麼這個水電我們都可以幫助他獲得更高經濟效益更低成本的水跟電"},{"start":10790.745,"end":10819.593,"text":"那么这样子的话他会比这个他在中国大陆也好或者他在台湾或者在日本的这个厂商他可以移动到这个菲律宾去做基本上菲律宾的人力他们发展的非常的好菲律宾就我们在看吕宋岛光是一个吕宋岛大概台湾比台湾大概三倍大那大概有六千万的人口所以这一部分他们要进到这个工业区服务相对于"},{"start":10820.333,"end":10846.903,"text":"相對於台灣的廠商來講是一個選擇的部分那當台灣的廠商要往世界各地去發展的時候我們可以提供一個讓他離家鄉最近的一個地區但是我剛才在講過最重要的還是水跟電各位都很清楚一直在指責菲律賓的電七塊八塊這麼高的價格我怎麼可能送回來對不起我是先創一塊或者兩塊錢的電"},{"start":10848.884,"end":10877.471,"text":"讓他們先供給菲律賓的這些我們的台商或者是日商或者是從中國大陸要移轉出來的這些台商讓他們先得到基礎建設的這些輔助讓他更具有競爭力這個才是我們最大的目的第二個他如果剩下的發出來的電有剩下的話我們可以用兩種方式把它送回來一種透過電子船送回來"},{"start":10878.351,"end":10900.431,"text":"第二個通過海嵐送回來 海嵐這個2011年就在世界討論的一個海事工程我們也看到了非常多歐洲的國家是透過海嵐在送電我們也看到最新的計畫 從新加坡他願意從澳洲拉4800公里拉到新加坡也是透過海嵐"},{"start":10901.59,"end":10925.952,"text":"我們認為我們也透過很多的智庫分析也透過很多的這個單位來做這些評估評估報告都有所以我們呢做了這一份可行性分析認為它是可行的接著我們要做實地的驗證實地的驗證這是科學的方法實地的驗證在確認它是可行的以後我們才會建議國內的"},{"start":10928.367,"end":10941.274,"text":"綠電業者往那邊移動但是我們會跟這個當地政府來討論怎麼樣給我們一些好的這個優惠的這個措施所以對經濟部來講這麼大的一個計畫不是"},{"start":10947.018,"end":10967.75,"text":"這麼輕易就做決定我們都有做非常多的simulation只是有一些部分跟委員報告牽扯到國安的部分是我們在這裡不能夠詳細的報告不要什麼事情最後都扯到國安我覺得說我們還是應該因為我們現在非常多的"},{"start":10968.873,"end":10989.419,"text":"這個所謂的假訊息好非常多的認知作戰所以這一點請委員能夠諒解好我們確實沒有辦法拒信免疑但是我們願意到你的辦公室去拒信免疑的報告好好謝謝那也請你馬上就是能夠回去的時候轉達電業審議委員會把就是我們電價審議委員會把所有我們本院委員對於電價不應該調漲這個問題"},{"start":10998.882,"end":11019.04,"text":"應該要如實的來陳述 好不好是的 我們會如實的陳述好 我們現在請呂一林委員做詢答"},{"start":11029.451,"end":11030.635,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請郭部長"},{"start":11039.301,"end":11064.946,"text":"委員好 部長美國的川普總統他在競選的時候他就已經主張要加重這個關稅來消除美國對各個國家的貿易的這個逆差他在上任之後的話他也馬上兌現了他的政見加徵了出口到美國的鋼鋁製品關稅到25%他也預告了4月份要來實施對等的關稅"},{"start":11066.286,"end":11069.17,"text":"增加這個關稅這個動作本席是非常的擔心那我們看到我們台灣2024年對美國出口將近1163億美元那美國進口到我們台灣的是424億美元那我們國家是在"},{"start":11084.85,"end":11113.667,"text":"这个美国第六大的这个贸易这个逆差的国家那我们出口到美国的大部分也都是这个机械的用具跟电子的零件那经济部应该对我们国内的相关的产业对这个被征收关税的问题你有没有相对应的这个应对的方式是报告委员我们都有各种不同的这个情境的模拟然后提出因应的对策那刚才你所这个垂询的这部分呢"},{"start":11114.187,"end":11136.887,"text":"大概740億左右的這個出鈔呢大部分其中有七成是屬於伺服器是屬於伺服器的部分那我們會針對我們出鈔的部分然後來訪談所有的這個業者那我們跟業者共同討論如何來因應這樣子如果萬一關稅被調整的話"},{"start":11137.728,"end":11153.893,"text":"我們能會得到多少的這個衝擊跟傷害那報告委員我想所有的剛才你在上面所列舉的這些業者我們都談過我們都有談過那建立各種不同的情境因為美國會跟我們談什麼樣的內容"},{"start":11156.397,"end":11163.339,"text":"我們沒有辦法了解但是我們可以推論我們還沒有談我們會去推論那我們主談不是經濟部談我們談的是我們的這個談判辦公室在談是因為部長你特別說你會協助廠商以往這個美國那我們是擔心"},{"start":11176.462,"end":11205.882,"text":"這些產業包括像台積電他到美國去投資上下游的整個產業也都會為了成本問題而到美國去那你要協助這些產業到美國那整個我們台灣的就業市場不就會下降了嗎不會報告委員我想這個地方大家應該是可以用比較科學的來討論這個數大就分支數大就分支他今天到美國去特別像你剛才所指導的這個台積電這件事情"},{"start":11206.882,"end":11232.953,"text":"台積電是非常大它是一個世界市場的公司而且它是一個所以大家可能比較了解就是因為大所以上下游的產業才會跟著它走啊上下游的產業啊它也要看它的成本能不能夠符合那成本不能夠符合幾乎很難移動我要跟委員報告就我專業的角度跟我的經驗來跟您報告的話我可以分享給你就是說"},{"start":11234.215,"end":11254.753,"text":"供應鏈的部分大概是十倍的量對於這個台積電使用量的十倍所以我今天賣給台積電譬如說假設矽晶圓矽晶圓台積電大概一個月用兩萬片一條線如果說部長你講到這個問題的話本席要提醒你"},{"start":11255.393,"end":11257.374,"text":"剛剛有講到說我們出口到美國是1163億的美元那但是我們看到我們在這個所有我們晶片或者半導體的設備出口到美國大概佔有83.51億的美元在我們出口值上只是不到5%"},{"start":11272.66,"end":11292.711,"text":"不到我怕我們被美國要增加這個關稅我們就被嚇到了馬上就跑到美國去設廠在這種情形之下想請教部長就是說那是不是說我們台積電到美國之後的話我們就有這個當籌碼來幫忙所有我們其他產業到出口到美國可以免備加徵關稅的這個籌碼是不是這樣子"},{"start":11295.403,"end":11322.636,"text":"這個部分我想報告委員這個是綜合的考量我相信台積電會幫助它的供應鏈來談出一個比較好的條件畢竟打它關稅那對台積電的成本就增加了那就更沒有競爭力了所以這個不符合企業國際化的這樣的一個要求我要跟委員報告的就是說台積電到美國去"},{"start":11323.938,"end":11348.197,"text":"絕對不是受到美國 它一定是受到美國客戶的需求客到美國客戶的需求因為它是有客戶的需求 可是部長你不要忘了國際企業的創造只有兩個我們知道都要創造走入國際化但是人才外流是我們擔心的因為它現在宣布了說要到美國研發中心當然跟我們台灣的研發中心是有區隔的"},{"start":11348.737,"end":11365.783,"text":"一個是那個先進的製程一個是屬於整個產能產量的製造但是兩個研發中心的人才在那邊一起的時候你要知道說他會不會超前了我們的技術或者我們技術會流到美國去這個都是我們關係的問題你是不是給我一點時間跟你說明"},{"start":11368.524,"end":11384.421,"text":"美國的研究大概是做這個基本的研究包括材料 包括用什麼樣的設備來生產這個是美國的同仁他們比較喜歡做的事情所以美國的大學 美國的研究所都是在做這個所謂Research"},{"start":11386.114,"end":11412.753,"text":"對這個工作但是台積電最厲害在台灣的有9000人的那個是做develop可是他也說他要肩負著開創新的技術啊對但是那個技術啊要能夠成為生產他要能夠發展出來這要量產就好像我今天在家裡我只能做一點的這個這個譬如說10件但是我在工廠生產的就是1萬件"},{"start":11414.073,"end":11440.635,"text":"有这个技术要发展成能够制造部长你要了解这些都是我们担心的你要如何让国人能够增强信心不会因为台积电到美国去投资之后我们大家信心会大几这个我举一个例子继续壮大我们的护国神山台积电台积电是它的技术就是到哪里大概别人很难接受的很难接收的"},{"start":11441.567,"end":11468.337,"text":"可是研發中心在美國設之後這是我們擔心的他那個是在線上我這個線上已經成熟了我要讓他良率因為半導體注重的是良率可是我們就趴超前了啦這個在研發中心在美國之後他們的各項技術就會超前我們台灣的研發中心報告委員台積電在座剛剛跟我講研究跟發展的工程師有一萬多位"},{"start":11470.123,"end":11486.115,"text":"所以這個是不可能 他去的是一千位是這個所謂製程商 我在生產上面的工程師如何生產的成本更低 如何的效益更好部長你要有信心 那也希望能夠讓我們的護國神山繼續壯大好不好是 好 謝謝我們現在請賴氏寶委員做詢答"},{"start":11504.808,"end":11507.317,"text":"謝謝主席有請經濟部的郭部長"},{"start":11515.387,"end":11542.086,"text":"委員好部長你好這個我們看到這個防衛內政部這個防衛韌性擴編他的範圍要推廣到經濟部交通部村里長幹事等等他內政部喊的防災是要目標10萬人整個來講就是目標40萬的民力"},{"start":11543.668,"end":11557.25,"text":"這個整體感覺好像台灣快打仗的樣子喔要全民訓練接兵了這個請問請問他事先有沒有跟你這邊有沒有跟你聊過這個事情有沒有內政部有沒有找你談過這個事"},{"start":11558.591,"end":11584.762,"text":"這個我們是對於全民防衛這個概念我想大家應該都有啦我想委員應該很清楚嘛我們大概都很清楚 勿視敵之不來 恃無有以待我知道 有沒有跟你談過 跟部長或者跟經濟部談過有沒有我們當然有討論過啦每一個部門所承擔的工作跟任務是不一樣的你們這裡面可以掉"},{"start":11585.462,"end":11606.568,"text":"可以吊比如說計程車可以吊你們經濟部底下的任何的人這個感覺這感覺在我們整個憲政的運作上除非總統宣布緊急命令否則他沒有辦法他不能夠隨便吊這個裡面工作的人吊車輛吊什麼的他要吊你們的訓練我就問一個問題他吊你們的人這段時間訓練時間給的錢"},{"start":11615.202,"end":11627.714,"text":"有沒有給錢這個主要是內政部的一個這個目標跟任務啦經濟部的配合對啦我知道啦但是你一直沒有回答問題嘛第一個"},{"start":11629.045,"end":11646.561,"text":"你好像不知道到底你們底下誰我不是主導這一件事那你告訴我哪一位可以回答哪一位可以回答這個問題就是跟誰談我們目前為止都還沒有都沒有跟你們談"},{"start":11647.742,"end":11674.892,"text":"都還沒有這麼清楚委員所垂訓的部分是非常細的這個細節沒有 這個很重要因為我知道很重要但是你垂訓的非常細節我仍然還沒有進入到那個層級還沒有進入到你所垂訓的這個層級類似緊急命令底下可以徵用所有的人緊急命令底下沒有問題"},{"start":11675.712,"end":11701.839,"text":"我想我們大家都知道那總統也沒有下緊急命令那我們只是說就有這個命題來我們大概知道有這樣的一個命題但是我相信財政部也一定會依法來進行這些我現在確定你剛剛跟我講說有你現在說沒有到底是有還是沒有我不能跟你講說我沒有這個有這一件事情跟這件事情的內容"},{"start":11703.139,"end":11722.513,"text":"我問的不是很細心我是問內政部有沒有找經濟部談啊問這樣子你一直你沒有回答我嘛內政部有沒有找你談嘛問題這麼大我不知道從哪裡回答你的問題有沒有找經濟部談事實上是沒有嘛你後面的長官你說沒有嘛有沒有嘛"},{"start":11726.752,"end":11748.564,"text":"這個那我請這個我同仁回答有沒有找你們談報告委員因為這個是涉及到跨部會的一個議題的那內政部是主辦機關然後我們那個權動署會有召集相關的部會在討論這個事你們有沒有被目前沒有被調目前沒有嗎目前沒有可是這個新聞就做了這麼大"},{"start":11749.324,"end":11761.929,"text":"人家感覺好像台灣又要受打的樣子有準備要打仗了這感覺很不好啦而且而且可以隨時調動經濟部底下的交通部底下的連計程車司機也要調里長也要調是這樣子的我要強調這個概念"},{"start":11766.551,"end":11781.899,"text":"你們來講他要調你們的人然後你們完全不知道結果他現在已經消息了出來全民防衛動員啊我知道啦我當然知道全民的防衛動員可是他已經要這樣做了結果你們都不知道照理講"},{"start":11783.829,"end":11792.258,"text":"內政部跟經濟部是一樣大照理講要尊重你們要知會一下經濟部長很明顯經濟部長沒有被知會嘛我是替部長你討公道啊說這個事情應該知會你一下嘛"},{"start":11799.965,"end":11813.599,"text":"謝謝委員我想這個我們對這件事情還停留在剛Kick off的這個階段那這裡面要運作各方面這個都要透過很多的第二個問題比較大這個台積電要去投資美國到底是一千億美金還是兩千億美金"},{"start":11823.533,"end":11836.163,"text":"就這個魏董事長回來的報告為準就是一千億美金可是川普總統一直講兩千億美金到底誰講得對那這個可能我們要再確認一下你也不敢確認"},{"start":11838.16,"end":11842.822,"text":"到現在為止我不是當事人嘛美國總統 美國爸爸都講兩千億美金了然後我們這裡點點的就默認喔一般的小老百姓就是默認兩千億美金那等於外董事長講一千億阿川普講兩千億"},{"start":11858.05,"end":11882.324,"text":"一千里沒搞到兩千里所以我要來確定一下我要來確定到底一千里還是兩千里就是說魏董事長講的才是事實啦我並沒有講說川普川普總統他怎麼樣子來表達這一件投資的這個案我不是很清楚但是以我們來講經濟部在把關這件事情的時候"},{"start":11883.445,"end":11895.17,"text":"就是台積電他要去美國投資多少錢1000億美金或者將來2000億美金都要經過我們的投審司請問現在投審司投審司有六個要件這個現在沒有時間講喔"},{"start":11901.493,"end":11911.502,"text":"請問這個件送進沒有?送託診室沒有?到現在沒有到現在都沒有啊啊已經跟人家簽也不是MOU就準備決定了啊你幹嘛這樣 經濟部等於"},{"start":11915.365,"end":11942.792,"text":"這是委員您的看法啦我想這麼大的一個投資一個公司的董事都可能信口開河我非常相信我也非常的尊重董事長我也非常佩服一個董事長可以在三天裡面見兩個總統然後他在分享的時候兩位總統都給他鼓掌好那其他的公司也可以這樣子喔我也可以直接去投資不要經過投資的事喔"},{"start":11943.712,"end":11969.746,"text":"我只要強調這一點喔我們的法令規定如果要從台灣把錢匯出去一定要經過投資人士不允許他,他怎麼去匯這個錢去?他要拿現金嗎?不可能的事嘛所以現在他還沒有送啊他還沒有送不代表他不會投,他還沒有講說他什麼時候開始要請請問你現在知道台積電的外資佔多少?"},{"start":11971.155,"end":11987.956,"text":"外資的部分大概佔了這個七八十個七十二%這裡面的董事我們台灣人三個啦外國人因為看起來大部分美國人四個獨董"},{"start":11990.271,"end":12007.45,"text":"幾位也都是外國人但是讀懂有一位是林全所以三四三台灣的董事三個美國的董事四個或者往其他看我們一直讀一讀都是外國人那讀懂三個裡面有一個林全這個這樣的一個結構"},{"start":12012.591,"end":12015.372,"text":"外界的質疑 外界的擔心是有道理的這個要變美積電 隨時可以變美積電啊董事改選馬上就 董事長就換人了啊董事長換人就可以了啊每一個產業 每一個產業都有它的特性"},{"start":12031.036,"end":12052.992,"text":"不能夠用一般的論述來講這個特殊的產業台積電這個產業坦白講它的資本支出是非常大的一個產業所以他們不會笨到說我今天去到一個不具競爭力的地區然後去創造我自己的新的事業這個是完全不符合我想"},{"start":12056.775,"end":12083.308,"text":"不是啊 我跟你講是說通不是啊 我跟你講從董事的結構從外資的結構他董事長換人是可行的我是跟你強調這一點你跟我講其他都沒有回答我的問題啊因為大家人三個 美國人四個啊 獨棟 也是外國人兩個二比一 他們的人都比我們多投票就改掉啦"},{"start":12084.789,"end":12109.667,"text":"為職家要被換掉都很輕而易舉啊只要投票就過啦所有的報告委員我想所有的董事啊他有一個責任就是要為了他的企業能夠make money如果照你這樣講這樣換了人他做得不好這樣兩下就被拉下來啦星際客不就這樣子嗎英特爾這麼大的一個公司運作的不好你就下台"},{"start":12111.348,"end":12133.68,"text":"這個產業是非常非常救人的而且很容易去經營的部長我沒有時間再聽你長兵大論了我只是問你一個問題這樣的董事結構股東結構外資70%它的從太積電變成美積電的可能性存不存在我就問你這樣子"},{"start":12134.71,"end":12152.615,"text":"如果就學術上面的討論如果是學術上的討論當然可能啊機率很小機率很小對啊不然的話請你提出來很高的這個論述嘛我要跟你報告就專業的角度來看不可能"},{"start":12153.576,"end":12168.491,"text":"專業不可能學術當然可能啊這不可能因為我的專業我可以跟您報告就是不可能我在這個領域裡面我在這個領域裡面50年以後50年的經驗我可以很肯定的跟委員報告它就是不可能就學術上面的討論就機率來看"},{"start":12172.034,"end":12196.465,"text":"他是非常微薄不是說不可能非常微薄的機率你的經歷基本上是推頂比較多啦也不必把它講得多偉大你是推頂比較多啦貿易做得比較多啦我不是推理喔我推理也是符合這個你推頂做得比較多啦原則的啊我是用社會科學來推理的啊最後一點我很在意的"},{"start":12198.206,"end":12203.225,"text":"你們現在用情緒勒索說不給你一千億就要漲價這一點"},{"start":12205.103,"end":12231.625,"text":"老實講這一點對整個民主運作是非常不公平的今天明明有便宜的核電一度一塊四你不用要去用很貴的這邊人家教授人家中研院都講了你們可以用核電你不用核電然後你硬要漲我們的價老百姓是不接受的啦"},{"start":12232.523,"end":12259.163,"text":"一千億也不會給你如果你提出條件說給我一千億我要核電我個人我個人我支持但是你不要核電你要一千億我不接受謝謝委員謝謝委員的支持事實上在我們經濟委員會的討論過程裡面一千億剛剛市長江其改委員也講過了一千億他正確的正確的判斷是3除30億"},{"start":12260.504,"end":12268.254,"text":"但是今天送到地理協議 地理協議完全被刪掉我就覺得這個不是專業的討論沒有 你要想盡極盡 要窮起於心辦法Cost down"},{"start":12274.517,"end":12291.417,"text":"然後你現在沒有你現在便利的店不用便利用貴的那個童子賢都講了童子賢你剛剛講的童子賢都講了我們不是說不用而是說現在的法令在現在的法令的這個"},{"start":12292.378,"end":12313.341,"text":"这个之下我们必须要遵法我们也必须要守法今天如果我们不遵法不守法今天政府不遵法不守法那这个政府还有信赖吗所以我曾委员报告今天那个法的框架在那个地方我们必须要依法行事这个你不能要求我们不依法行事这一点我们不能接受"},{"start":12314.583,"end":12328.643,"text":"沒有這個法咧沒有這個法這個法我想這個核安法核安法就規定在那邊非常清楚嘛如果今天我們理性的討論把核安法大家可以接受的話我們不排除"},{"start":12329.56,"end":12352.176,"text":"沒有說不能用核電啦這是一個信仰的問題這是執政黨他要的東西今天請你當部長我所了解的就是認為你開放你可以用核電結果你為了當官還是不要用我現在擔任這個部長我必須要尊重 遵守中華民國的法令法令沒有說不能用核電喔"},{"start":12353.464,"end":12370.274,"text":"法令上面有規定現有的核電機組必須在40年以後下載如果要研議必須在5年前提出來這個是明確的一個法令的規定我不能不遵守"},{"start":12372.662,"end":12392.881,"text":"我再強調一遍你1000億說可以啟用核電我支持不啟用核電我不支持第一個我結論你不用回答我時間到了一直被捶第二個第二個很重要的一件事情那就是這個我們在野黨都已經替你們"},{"start":12394.076,"end":12415.811,"text":"都修改法令你說演藝要演藝都可以要護國都可以第三個美國老大已經在吹希望能夠用核電這個請部長認真思考否則漲價得不到明星謝謝委員所有大院的決定我們一定遵守謝謝委員好 謝謝我們現在請洪孟楷委員做詢答"},{"start":12423.769,"end":12435.69,"text":"然後我們先宣告中午不休息 延長開會時間到議程處理完畢好 主席謝謝麻煩請郭部長郭部長"},{"start":12443.497,"end":12460.571,"text":"好 國務部長 只有四分鐘 不過還是簡要的跟你質詢一下就是能源是國安議題 我想大家也都重視能源為什麼之前一直講是說一定要操之在己那最近又再傳出 因為你之前提過說菲律賓重電這樣的一個訊息也改口了"},{"start":12460.911,"end":12481.812,"text":"但最近又在傳出說是可行性評估已經完成是不是來我先確認一下兩件事如果說真的經濟部目前規劃或是台電公司目前規劃要跟菲律賓買電的話是要跟菲律賓的原有的電力公司買還是要跟台商在那邊投資的電力公司買"},{"start":12482.598,"end":12499.719,"text":"報告委員都不是以上皆非好那怎麼樣第一個先看那個地方適不適合發展綠能的電力比如說有沒有這個土地啊土地夠不夠然後土地到底夠不夠能夠做這個太陽能光電或者是做這個這個"},{"start":12502.141,"end":12523.424,"text":"就是土地的問題嗎來再來所以我們可行性評估已經算過了是這個兩種那邊有足夠的土地足夠的土地有沒有那有沒有辦法把這個成本壓低目前看起來成本一度墊是五塊五以上嗎不是我們的可行性評估一度墊發展出來一定是兩塊以內好"},{"start":12524.926,"end":12535.432,"text":"那再來你現在講是說兩塊以內但本席剛剛問的問題在於是說是跟現有菲律賓的電力公司買還是誰發電我們讓國內的讓國內的做這個光電的廠商跟做這個陸域風電的廠商"},{"start":12544.156,"end":12568.719,"text":"我們的Business Model是希望國內的廠商到菲律賓去圈地發電然後再把那個電發出來之後賣回來給台灣原則是這樣 但是地是由經濟部幫助他們找更大的地跟菲律賓官方來談我們跟菲律賓的官方正在進行這方面的研究"},{"start":12570.242,"end":12594.572,"text":"所以現在是接觸到什麼程度了現在接觸的到就是我們還是在做可行性評估的階段已經評估完了認為可行的開始要進入實境調查我們現在的綠電在台灣的發電成本相對來講是高的那其中很大的一個部分是我們的零組件都是從哪一些國家進口"},{"start":12595.219,"end":12621.628,"text":"我們的零組件一部分是國內生產一部分大概從境外是,哪些國家境外的國家大概現在中國、越南、泰國我們有接受中國大陸的零組件嗎我們不准中國進來是啊,那這樣你怎麼剛會講說有中國的零組件我是外國的供應鏈有在中國的,也有在越南的但是我們能夠接受的進口的零組件主要還是泰國跟越南嗎是的"},{"start":12622.108,"end":12641.006,"text":"那全世界這個我其實之前就諮詢過囉我說全世界裡面來講中國大陸確實不可諱言他們的光電發電的零組件或是技術相對成熟能源是選擇但是因為我們國家有國安的相關疑慮所以我們不准中國大陸進口但菲律賓咧"},{"start":12642.622,"end":12659.037,"text":"菲律賓他百分之多少是用中國大陸的零組件我們現在這樣子報告委員所以我在講嘛所以我們大概就是買電發你不要先不要轉移焦點我先請教說菲律賓發電現在有多少是中國大陸零組件這個我不清楚"},{"start":12659.497,"end":12673.493,"text":"你不清楚我們沒有同仁現在我們一個經濟部部長要到菲律賓那麼重要的國家講說我們的能源政策是要到菲律賓買電結果不清楚說菲律賓有多少是用中國大陸的零組件來做發電"},{"start":12675.069,"end":12703.322,"text":"委員你這樣的這個質詢那你知不知道那這樣子我就要更嚴重懷疑我現在很聚焦啊不是部長那我現在嚴重懷疑您知不知道2024年菲律賓有馬尼拉電力公司他還跟中國大陸的中國電力建設集團簽約有工程採購跟施工的合約我們跟他沒有關係啦不是菲律賓有那麼多好所以我現在很直接的請教跟"},{"start":12704.082,"end":12715.874,"text":"要求 你的溝通或是你的這個未來的規劃裡面台灣的廠商到菲律賓去做發電會不會用到中國大陸的零組件不可能"},{"start":12716.986,"end":12743.018,"text":"會在合約裡面明白確定我沒有跟他什麼合約但是我如果買電的時候我就會寫你就會要求嘛跟國內一樣嘛跟我們台灣國內一樣跟國內一樣對不對當然這是本席站在這邊要捍衛我們台灣的一個權益就是要求經濟部提出來即便是未來有任何規劃到菲律賓你也不能用中國大陸的領主権"},{"start":12744.878,"end":12773.005,"text":"國內台灣的境內的規定是一模一樣的當然因為以我專業的報告他們的零組件是有安全上面的問題非常好所以我們不會用本席就是要經濟部長徹底的承諾在公開的經濟委員會裡面徹底承諾就是即便是我們有台灣的廠商到菲律賓投資也不能因為在海外而用中國大陸的零組件是的謝謝委員謝謝我們有這個機會"},{"start":12774.465,"end":12802.501,"text":"好 謝謝我們現在請鍾嘉賓委員做詢答主席 在場的委員先進 列席的政務局院所長的官員會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請經濟部郭部長和能源署理代理署長以及台電公司曾董事長"},{"start":12803.134,"end":12804.98,"text":"好 請郭部長一律所述的"},{"start":12806.892,"end":12833.847,"text":"剛好山海東鎮部長好 署長好 董事長好來 標題很清楚離島供電虧損遷移依法撥補合作開發綠電實現電網互通來 我們請到這個新聞大概在3月9號的時候台電持續虧損擬漲電價追討離島補貼部長 這個消息你知道嗎3月9號 知道那台電說它有三個劇本我們還是希望說這個小店家住宅小用戶盡量不要漲或不要漲那麼多"},{"start":12835.208,"end":12860.834,"text":"但是台電說那如果這樣的話我不行啊我要去追討這個離島補貼來看一下部長知道離島發電的虧損過去有補貼嗎有沒有撥補離島簽署條例是4條嘛用水用電平均費率收取嘛然後呢主管機關中央目的世界主管機關審查後要編列預算撥補資請問部長提供離島平價水電是依法的"},{"start":12862.396,"end":12891.237,"text":"義務對不對那因此要撥補業者的虧損這是不是政府的法定義務要用法定的支出是的是的好所以經濟部會怎麼做經濟部我想謝謝委員的這個提醒經濟部當然就是通通是依法行事經濟部一向的作為就是依法行事不只依法行事還要尊重民意機關來105年行政院曾經說不要編列預算指引給經濟部可是後來呢在去年"},{"start":12892.517,"end":12913.546,"text":"經紀委會審查說做成決議喔要請離島基金研議撥補台電的可行性研議的結果你們有研議嗎離島基金來撥補台電可行性你們有研議嗎這個部分我是不是請台電董事長跟你們報告其實也不是台電啦離島基金是誰在管離島基金國發會在管嘛那國發會有來嗎"},{"start":12915.249,"end":12929.075,"text":"國發沒有啦 我問過國發會了啦他們基本上的尊重行政院的決定啦 往下看所以請問部長那如果是用本院的決定是用離島基金來撥補的話哪個機關要負責編列預算經濟部經濟部編列預算給離島基金那離島基金要來撥補 是這樣的意思嗎來 那曾董事長講一下報告委員喔"},{"start":12942.146,"end":12950.55,"text":"會有這一個討論其實關鍵就是行政院直接編在經濟部補貼台電的預算兩筆都沒有通過所以才會去討論法定的部分離島的建設條例這一條確實是法有明定是那邊在誰那裡那個編列的是14條的規定是由目的世界主管機關來編"},{"start":12966.638,"end":12991.724,"text":"好就是來審查那個是這個目的事業主管居然水電的目的事業主管機關是經濟部對但是整個基金放是在國發會這一個條例的造級是行政院所以它其實是一個很特別的法令很好它的主管機關在行政院不在各個部會這是一個非常特別的事謝謝我們請郭部長喔部長這樣你的領袖太重要喔是是你在行政院不能客氣喔國發會我都幫我幫你跟主委都問過囉雖然"},{"start":12993.144,"end":13015.291,"text":"總之他坐在你旁邊謝謝委員我都問過了好往下看來現在來聽個問題不同的環境資源條件適合發展不同的能源政策像澳洲有廣大的沙漠現在的光電它可以來發展對不對像是加拿大有豐沛的河川它就可以發展水力發電有些國家有石油有煤有天然氣它可以發展火力發電是不是這樣子"},{"start":13016.527,"end":13039.193,"text":"那請問台灣這些地方你都有嗎?台灣有廣闊的沙漠嗎?有豐沛的水電嗎?像加拿大,還是我們底下有蘊藏石油煤跟天然氣?報告委員,我們現在還是在國內找尋不需要進口的這些能源,包括小水利,包括我們的地熱,這個都是我們在...對,包括低熱,低熱潛力很大,但是基本上台灣"},{"start":13039.753,"end":13066.114,"text":"目前現有的我們的地理條件我們還是要需要進口能源或進口電是因為我們所做的這個再生能源因為我們的土地不夠多那我們的海岸也不夠長所以我想只能夠這個做進口的能源所以進口能源而且進口能源很大部分用來發電是不是這樣子是的那也可以進口電好我們看一下來哪些國家加拿大的電力呢"},{"start":13067.042,"end":13090.065,"text":"美國從加拿大進口水電,是不是?是德國從俄羅斯拿天然氣來發電,也從法國進口電力所以一個國家的電力網,它可以尋求進口能源,也可以直接進口電力,是嗎?是的那台灣目前有進口電力嗎?台灣目前沒有進口電力沒有進口電力嗎?好,我們來看一下所以電網如果互通的話,也可以進口電力嗎?"},{"start":13090.706,"end":13114.148,"text":"譬如說最近大家討論的剛剛報告洪源提到菲律賓的重電您提說新聞報導說每度是5.5還可以實地考察來我們來看一下目前從菲律賓如果要進口電有三種四種方法啦三種方法第一HVDC高壓直流輸電可以長目前已有的可以重1600公里比交流電還要節省損耗技術上是可行"},{"start":13116.77,"end":13135.065,"text":"是的但是可能台灣跟菲律賓有很深的海溝超過3000公尺以上這個還要評估好另外有人說那用電磁團運輸對不對儲能設置裝在船上把電運了進去有沒有可能性也有嘛有好另外一種呢就是轉換為氫能把菲律賓的電先轉成氫能再用"},{"start":13136.11,"end":13158.461,"text":"安 淡 用它來轉化 讓LNG運送到其他國家 是不是這樣好 但是最後一種呢就是可能我看到最近有人在提到的 今天的新聞台中院在講就是境外關內的產業園區啊也就是說境外發展的電 不是用輸到台灣來我們把台灣的部分產業 乾燥我們的產業分工放一部分到那個地方去 直接用那個地方來綠電經濟部有評過這個可能性嗎"},{"start":13160.818,"end":13180.214,"text":"這個就是我境外觀內的非常重要的一環好 很好 那這個時間所以我們剛剛在談到菲律賓的供電其實我去考察過菲律賓的大馬尼拉電力公司其實菲律賓的工業用電比台灣還高住宅用電更是讓那邊的台商嚇得要死為什麼有沒有進一步去理解一下菲律賓的電力系統"},{"start":13181.91,"end":13208.262,"text":"報告委員我們一開始就沒有考慮使用菲律賓現有的電力設施跟現有的電力的這個做法我們是在一個在跟菲律賓政府希望能夠談到一個具有經濟這個價值的一塊比較大的一個土地然後我們在那裡把台灣的業者送到那個地方去因為透過有這個經濟的這個"},{"start":13210.964,"end":13222.96,"text":"這個作用讓它的成本更降低然後它這個電可以賣給我們將來境外關內的工業區的這些業者使用剩下的送回來台灣"},{"start":13223.952,"end":13241.903,"text":"來跟部長說明一下因為在場有些人不是不一定會像董事長那麼了解電力這叫做職工啦發電業者他不直接把電他不把電賣給大電力網在大電網分配到用戶去他直接賣給什麼耗能虛能的用戶簡言之今天在菲律賓之前有光電業者去設廠"},{"start":13243.164,"end":13264.904,"text":"結果後來很吃虧 為什麼因為大馬尼拉這個菲律賓的電力公司的輸配線路的管理效能不如台電所以收很高的管線費算一算呢 如果要賣給他價格會變得很低 不划算不賣給他 都賣停工期啊所以其實之前呢 我去考察過菲律賓台灣過去的光業者在那邊如果都考慮到 聽說我的店要賣給"},{"start":13266.243,"end":13290.109,"text":"菲律賓的電力供應他不要但是如果我們台商去設廠需要綠能的產業去設廠像半導體他需要綠電他直接賣給台灣的廠商他很願意部長有往這個方向去考量嗎是的 我們一開始就是往這個方向就是職工啦直接供應好 最後的結論請協同主計總署研議籌措國發基金依法撥補台電離島的供電虧損可以嗎"},{"start":13292.83,"end":13315.24,"text":"我會幫你去找主席總書因為他在財政委員會是 這是離島建設基金對 這是離島建設基金啊是喔 對不起不是瓜哥基金說錯了是離島建設基金打錯了齁那另外呢整合能源供應和產業需求評估在鄰近國家地區比如說像菲律賓設置台灣產業園區的可行性可以嗎是的好 那麼進入給本席一個書面的一個報告好嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝部長 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請郭國文委員做詢答"},{"start":13332.426,"end":13335.208,"text":"主席有請郭部長郭部長部長好我想總諮詢的時候跟你討教過有關於地面型跟屋頂型的問題那之所以需要跑向屋頂型是因為地面型其實非常困難到目前政策缺口還缺個五六GW"},{"start":13357.062,"end":13374.778,"text":"那地面型之所以出了這麼多爭議性的問題的話其實啊 台鹽本身啊的這個台鹽底下的台鹽綠能的爭議案件就受人詬病問題是台鹽是經濟部每年投資6.9億持股佔38.8%董事其實是9席當中佔5席過半"},{"start":13384.87,"end":13399.13,"text":"結果呢這個台研綠能的董事長總經理分別起訴12年跟10年經濟部有沒有責任啊有沒有主管受到嚴懲啊部長請回答"},{"start":13403.576,"end":13426.99,"text":"報告委員這個是在我想目前為止還沒有確定的沒有確定 已經起訴這麼嚴重了你要等到判決定才要做懲處嗎起訴我想 你就告訴我起訴了 起訴不代表定罪啦12年 10年 好那你告訴我那如果定罪之後你們要不要懲處如果定罪的話我們當然懲處懲處 懲處主管機關懲處誰 到什麼階段"},{"start":13432.333,"end":13452.242,"text":"這個我想這個法院會來沒有沒有沒有 法院是法院 我說到你行政機關行政政府的時候 公務員懲戒委員會報告委員 我們會就法院這個結果來做一個適時的懲處必要的時候來做懲處好 第二個 這一家公司啊搞得烏煙瘴氣 讓整個綠能持續被污名化"},{"start":13456.9,"end":13462.523,"text":"我問一下整個公社資本人啊虧了連2.5億啊已經快虧光了聽說你們是要再加碼還是要把它收起來方向怎麼樣"},{"start":13472.547,"end":13487.972,"text":"這個方向都會做各種不同的評估什麼時候會出來這個評估的話我想我們會經過各種風險的評估然後找出一個最適合的方法出來的時候我們再跟委員報告什麼時候 要不要加一個時間點要評估那麼久嗎"},{"start":13489.832,"end":13512.621,"text":"台研現在正在進行這個最後的評論台研啊基本上是屬於一種國有的一個企業卻沒有受到立法院的監督什麼事情我們找他的時候擺出一副老大不管的樣子在我的選區當中七座當中有三座而且連台研博物館找他來討論一下愛理不理"},{"start":13517.16,"end":13540.263,"text":"這個就是你們自己的行政監督的結果啊搞出這麼多弊案啊是 報告委員我想台研就像您剛剛所指正的我們只持股38.8我們是最大的股東對但是它是已經一個上市的公司是所以我想也算是一個公股公司啦很多的單位在監管它主要的大股東是你們啦你們占50%啦是你們直接可以擁有決定權的啦"},{"start":13541.684,"end":13566.88,"text":"我們當然會監督他的這個監督不力啊,要好好檢討啦好,我再跟你討論另一個問題你看森巴第二期到現在為止喔二期的森巴電業執照還遲遲未發我就問你嘛整個森巴從去年六月以來配合台電調度南科工電1.1GW試運轉已經到這種狀態已經快一年了"},{"start":13570.991,"end":13597.601,"text":"為什麼徵招還沒有發下來為什麼這個委員我可以請這個署長跟你報告可以 來 能源署長是 報告委員因為那個立法院這邊在1月有一個主決議裡面有一些要求申報要履行的事項他還沒有完成哪一個事項沒有完成目前比較重要的就是希望他跟這個民眾辦理公開的說明會公開的說明會辦過幾場你知道了嗎"},{"start":13599.202,"end":13622.643,"text":"目前立法院要求他能夠辦四場那麼之前我們已經他辦了一場但是另外三場還沒有辦所以我們希望他盡快能夠依照立法院的決議把這三場辦好那個說明的部分老早就已經辦過好幾次一直強調所謂的安全檢測的部分安全檢測的部分就找了瑞士羅生公司來進行安全檢測"},{"start":13623.664,"end":13650.638,"text":"瑞士羅生公司也是中油管線的一個公司也沒有問題的情況底下為什麼安全沒問題什麼都沒有問題結果你們執照遲遲不發送事實上我們在我手頭上喔是好幾區的十幾個里長是簽署了聲明書他們希望你們趕快合法所以我們希望申辦能夠依立法院的決議趕快辦說明會那辦完之後他辦了好幾場了啦"},{"start":13651.678,"end":13668.951,"text":"因為後來他是有這個經紀委已經快一年了啦按照這種程序裡頭你們如果不給這個執照的話基本上是違法的我們不會不給他執照你們拖了快一年啊你一年沒有給的話他電協金的回饋金就沒有辦法運作啊"},{"start":13670.21,"end":13694.289,"text":"我算一下這個電學金的部分以發電量來說每一度要0.018來做回饋的話48億度的話總共每年回饋金額8640萬你現在地方已經實質在承擔這個發電的這種負擔的情況底下你回饋不給你是什麼意思所以我們希望森巴能夠盡快依立法院的主決議來完成"},{"start":13696.111,"end":13708.219,"text":"這個組決議基本上就已經辦過啦之前就辦過好幾次你要到底辦幾場啊因為那是組決議以後希望他能夠再辦四場那目前辦一場我們希望把他他趕快把這另外三場辦完到底要辦幾場要求是要求再辦一場就好了"},{"start":13711.653,"end":13739.067,"text":"要求辦四場那我們可以請他再辦因為他有辦一場了那但是還不符合主決議的要求所以我們希望他能夠盡快完成我跟你講署長你要尬死一點是這明明是兩回事他那個說明會是為了一期一期跟二期是兩回事要脫鍋處理啊你聽到沒有了解你剛代理署長而已啊是你要表現得跟上面那個署長不一樣一點啊是不要被拖得團團轉啊"},{"start":13741.002,"end":13760.316,"text":"我跟你講 如果說你這樣弄不好 我就找你算帳搞什麼啊 這違法的事情 你們可以公開違法堵職沒有違法 我們一定是照程序來算程序都已經給你們了 已經運轉快一年了 還沒有證照"},{"start":13762.239,"end":13786.883,"text":"這沒有違法因為他目前的審查已經經過國際公司的檢定了已經安全無虞了你還不給他細節我們跟委員報告第一個他之前有送資料他的資料是要件不齊全所以我們有把它做一句已經即時補件了啦目前他還沒有送到我們這邊之前已經即時補件了如果沒有即時補件就罰他嘛好 部長來我再問你一下 部長"},{"start":13789.557,"end":13811.36,"text":"部長,之前整個能源署出的問題就是在KPI的問題,橫衝直撞,包括太陽能是這樣子,包括天然氣也是這樣子,天然氣的話用KPI思考的話,硬要把酒味通過,結果現在酒味弄到後來,酒味也是受害者,之前我就跟你們講,"},{"start":13816.125,"end":13825.496,"text":"這個簽這個 簽這個電力採購協定之前一定要有這個這一個環評 好 現在又知錯能改 改過來要環評了好 現在九威呢 有沒有辦法運轉"},{"start":13828.578,"end":13851.063,"text":"沒有辦法嘛我們都是依照這個法令的規定在進行我跟你講啦 好 法令啦要取得施工息可必要條件要經過還品他現在沒有拿到還品合約已經到二月底已經到期了那現在已經到期的情況底下你有沒有確定了解台電有沒有依法處罰款這個我請台電董事長跟你們報告好不好"},{"start":13851.82,"end":13878.552,"text":"有沒有我請台電董事長跟你報告總經理跟你報告報告委員九位公司已經來函要求說要終止契約只是說這個終止契約的條件譬如剛您提到的整個的罰款金額怎麼計算雙方還有一些爭執爭議這個爭議我們正在處理當中大概是目前的進度到這裡目前在確認罰款的金額那罰是什麼時候開始罰"},{"start":13880.594,"end":13900.131,"text":"依照合約啦齁那因為當時的這個合約在執行的過程當中有一些不可抗力的條件我們有給他一些這方面的一些展言那要罰幾個月才能終止契約所以目前就是針對這個部分我們認為要多罰一點他認為要少罰一點可是就時間上沒有argument空間吧"},{"start":13900.811,"end":13919.485,"text":"你金額你多少你們兩部分可以談可是就實質金額你罰款六個月之後你今年應該8月25號就要終止契約條件了不是嗎是就是我們預計罰他六個月的那個所以最慢8月25號就依法終止契約是最慢到8月25最慢8月25 9月就結束了"},{"start":13922.054,"end":13937.022,"text":"因為他已經提前要求說要提前終止契約好 真正退場就8月25對 如果最晚的話大概就是這個時候但是就是合約會到那個時候結束啦但是中間的法律上的一些談判我知道 我期待8月25有結果 謝謝是謝謝我們現在請陳昭之委員做詢答不要走"},{"start":13950.263,"end":13967.438,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國務部長國務部長在正式主席今天的主席之前 我想請教你 你支持企業造假嗎你直接回答"},{"start":13971.129,"end":13995.8,"text":"我怎麼可能支持企業造假那我把企業造假這幾個字丟在Google裡面我們可以看到很多東西檢驗公司勾結營造商驗收造假台樹集團造假空污數據檢測公司檢驗水產品造假甚至部長您也被指稱說財報造假所以我現在請教部長您現在是在經濟部長這個位置您再問一次您支持企業造假嗎"},{"start":13999.588,"end":14018.985,"text":"您說您支持協造假嗎報告委員我剛才已經回答您的問題了嘛部長這是2019年8月報導者的系列報導reporter環境檢測機構比起本身排放污染的這個工廠更容易被政府這個處罰你看過這個報導嗎你看過你知道為什麼會這樣嗎排放污染工廠"},{"start":14026.617,"end":14046.834,"text":"環境檢測機構前者比較容易被處罰你知道為什麼嗎部長你知道為什麼嗎我是建議你去看這個報告你知道為什麼嗎這個不是經濟部所屬的範圍這是個概念部長環境檢測機構因為他受業者委託嘛拿人的手軟吃人的嘴軟嘛所以他會去幫業者去美化"},{"start":14048.475,"end":14075.518,"text":"這個污染數據躲避政府的稽查結果他們本來應該是公正的檢測者結果他們現在變成污染的遮羞部那所以為什麼當時環境部環境檢驗所他們去稽查的時候很多檢查機構檢測機構都被處罰了為什麼業界會這樣呢普遍存在業界我必須說政府跟國營事業帶頭違法作假要負起最大的責任我先請問部長假設"},{"start":14077.54,"end":14089.594,"text":"國營事業造假你會徹查嗎假設的問題假設如果有人作假你會去徹查嗎我回答委員的問題如果是事實"},{"start":14090.748,"end":14095.69,"text":"我支持你的這個檢舉但是假設的問題 假設的問題我不允許我們不能夠在這個地方討論這個假設的問題如果真的出現造假不是我認為如果有證據我問你的博弈事業造假你辦不辦"},{"start":14114.721,"end":14123.147,"text":"我這是依法犯禮啊上週五好不要批了上週五我在總質詢公開向左院長揭發台電協和電廠世界突然污染造假你當時也在備詢台上請問你後來有去了解這件事嗎"},{"start":14130.134,"end":14136.159,"text":"卓院黨答應我做行政調查你後來有去了解這件事嗎你後來有去了解這件事嗎我們當然有去了解嘛好 你有去了解 你沒有藐視國會簡報上是2019、2012、2022內部的"},{"start":14146.809,"end":14175.898,"text":"台電內部的土壤這個調查報告我手上有好幾份同樣的監測點有多次出現土壤重金屬污染但台電都對外隱瞞其中有一份我在環評開會2月26號的前一天我新聞我新聞到這個我新聞到環境部那當然環境部都還沒有大大剌剌的這個碾壓過去這是他們要負責的部分但是我請教你你有向台電要求看這幾份報告嗎"},{"start":14177.076,"end":14199.052,"text":"報告委員我是不是可以請完全還原事實的台電總經理跟你報告好嗎現在我只要問你我在總諮詢的時候提出這幾份報告而且是新的2019、2022我們有了解的程度我們台電的同仁願意來跟你講真正的事實嘛部長不然你想想看我下面這個部分好台電"},{"start":14200.373,"end":14201.234,"text":"您的簡報是顧問公司的,不是我們台電接受的"},{"start":14221.337,"end":14229.059,"text":"這個台電利用所謂的自主調查它在正式的環評調查 自己先先偷做了現在我再看一個資料請你尊重我的發言權就是說12月的時候正式要做環評的檢測但是在9月就偷做了先自己所謂的你的自主性調查所以你們知道結果了在11月的時候你們內部的工作會議上面寫的什麼"},{"start":14250.45,"end":14260.656,"text":"超標濃度不高的你就翻土的方法處理翻一翻稀釋掉沒事好最嚴重的是下一個你已經知道很多污染點你採過59個點位也採樣過160幾個點位發現有污染的位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測天吶"},{"start":14273.186,"end":14299.098,"text":"天哪報告委員你是不是讓委員到你的辦公室給你做一個比較事實的給你報告因為很多的人其實他提出來給你的資料可能不過那麼詳實我們讓我們自己的單位跟你直接報告直接反映你的問題但是委員你都不接受我們的事實報告那你一直用你這個別人給你的資料不見得是正確的你要拿去查"},{"start":14300.339,"end":14310.907,"text":"我必須監督行政單位你看最後環評得到什麼資料所以我們已經有事實要跟你報告我已經告訴你2019、2012、2022我也找到內部的資料告訴我們你們處理了好 最後一部資料是最後你們看到的資料這個你們最後看到什麼ND not detectable用一個點 一個點位採測"},{"start":14321.795,"end":14333.118,"text":"這個是根據他的法律的規定我們這樣子做嘛我們是依法行事報告委員我們是依法行事你們看看TPH就是這個污染指標重金屬大澳新你不能夠跳出那個法的規定來講這些事情大家在場大家都會看好繼續看"},{"start":14344.821,"end":14352.199,"text":"你看這個總是有天津化合物多入連本上一頁有多入連本逆都是超標的紅色好再下一張"},{"start":14354.106,"end":14377.736,"text":"這個重金屬都是超標的這個都是你們的報告你們的報告這一份最後一頁部長這一部也是你們內部報告第三張突然污染細部調查結果你看倒數第二行還有多路連本都出現了在這剛剛我在第一頁的時候告訴你多路連本有那麼毒的四季就多人都出現了"},{"start":14379.319,"end":14398.709,"text":"結果呢 協和電廠台電他的決定不是好好整治這個東西在規避 規避這個資料我們認為你現在所指責的這個部分可能都是有一些資訊上面不足的地方我們是不是可以拿真正的我們內部的地方到你的辦公室跟你做一個"},{"start":14399.189,"end":14416.781,"text":"我們做行政調查 我們要求全面的報告但是你在這個地方指責我們的東西好像跟我們認知是有很大的差異跟事實有很大的差異在這裡我要跟您報告您的資料跟我們的事實有很大的差異"},{"start":14418.407,"end":14420.589,"text":"部長核心資料沒有給第六章空缺直接開會開會的時候環評是17比0通過環評法有環評法的程序你說土屋法我告訴你第17條第二項很清楚你這個土屋法要開"},{"start":14435.04,"end":14441.243,"text":"要進行土地再利用的時候有一些限制凡是受到這個環評法規定有害明明就是扣連的明明就是扣連的法規不然為什麼世間環評委員要求看土壤的這個偵測報告為什麼第二階段的環評委員也是要求看如果不重要為什麼世間開發案要求看環評委員要求看資料結果你們隱瞞"},{"start":14463.015,"end":14472.494,"text":"是經濟部自己要求這樣做 還是台電自己做的我歡迎你到這個法院去提告這個是公開的事情是 歡迎你到法院去提告嘛"},{"start":14473.356,"end":14495.327,"text":"好不好 我跟你講說我們是事實要跟你報告你不接受那你用一個虛無的東西來指責我 我用虛無的東西部長你講話小心喔這是你們內部揭秘者 我們民眾團體所揭秘的保護法你講的跟你所指責的部分是非常奇怪的事實啊我要跟你報告事實 你不接受那我怎麼 部長你的事實 我給的是證據我給的是書面報告 我給的是數字檢查我給的是檢驗數字 我有日期"},{"start":14503.444,"end":14524.749,"text":"你現在索賠說 你要指控我這個是假的嗎不是 我建議你如果你認為他是事實嘛我建議你到法院去提報我們來做行政辦 你現在就要訴出法我們要做行政調查卓院長已經親口在總執行答應我做這個行政調查你敢配合嗎我們當然配合好 那我現在要求那個四階開發案的現場封閉不動我懷疑台電現在就在處理"},{"start":14530.01,"end":14546.796,"text":"他敢翻土 他敢移點 他現在在處理中先封閉可以嗎 封閉現場不動 不要讓他有機會作弊 可以嗎 這小事啊報告委員 我們都不需要依現在的法令行事我就是跟你談法 我跟你談土無法 我跟你談環評法"},{"start":14549.059,"end":14571.229,"text":"可以吧 你可以答應這件事吧現場開發案 現場先封閉起來就跟命案一樣先封閉起來你就是要做一個這麼大的開發案你要讓人民服氣嘛這個資料是新發現資料 被隱藏的資料嘛是 你講得非常正確所以我們在開發前一定會按照你所做的事情再處理好 那先把這個場地封閉起來 可以嗎"},{"start":14572.089,"end":14576.054,"text":"讓他沒有機會作弊我們不能夠去封閉場地我們是根據什麼法去封閉這個場地啦"},{"start":14580.424,"end":14599.737,"text":"有問題我沒有新市政啊不是 你要取 我可以依循的法給我做啊這是行政 這個根本不用依法你們政庭會有問題 政庭不要讓排電人員進去這個不用動到法律麻煩你找到一個我可以做的法令給我我一定依據你所提出來的我來做嘛你從頭到尾都在講空話"},{"start":14606.223,"end":14627.982,"text":"不要我沒有那個意思我只是說請你告訴我們我們應該怎麼走但是必須要有法令的依據嘛是不是我們一直都是依法在行事我就告訴你土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土"},{"start":14634.526,"end":14646.473,"text":"陳超市委員不好意思部長今天我今天開記者會你們台電不敢來經濟部不敢來環保局環保環境部來了為什麼龜縮不敢出現敢做不敢當敢做不敢當"},{"start":14648.373,"end":14667.1,"text":"不敢來啊不敢參加記者會啊不敢來啊不願意嗎不害怕嗎不敢啊沒有這種規定說來就是敢來不敢來然後我想這個這個討論好像有超過一般的大家的認知結果你們不出現現在你跟我說要依法我就是要告訴你法令啊"},{"start":14667.6,"end":14681.428,"text":"好 那如果說你可以說我今天哪一條法令說我們一定要配合去我們就會依法行事啦法令 立法院的職責就可以監督行政機關啊這個法令就一直都存在啊部長 不要藐視國會 不要講空話我不可能藐視國會"},{"start":14688.908,"end":14700.84,"text":"我們也不會藐視國會我們都是在法令的法的基礎之下行事報告委員我們一定在法的基礎之下行事我們也不會藐視國會也不敢藐視國會好 謝謝"},{"start":14716.291,"end":14738.926,"text":"好 我們現在請林月琴委員做詢答主席想請陳怡伶 標準級的局長好 請陳局長"},{"start":14751.81,"end":14770.206,"text":"委員長因為去年11月就在我們的經濟委員會就已經質詢過同一個主題了那上次我有請標檢局能不能盤點相關法規跟配套措施跟相關部會做討論看如何怎麼做跨部會的合作"},{"start":14770.953,"end":14785.767,"text":"那也希望標準局在後續交給我們一些相關報告所以在報告裡面我們比較沒有辦法看到就是說你們盤點缺乏的法規跟開會這兩個部分我是沒有看到的想問局長說這兩個部分有做嗎"},{"start":14787.088,"end":14809.359,"text":"那為什麼報告裡面沒有呈現這兩個東西所以如果有做的話那是不是會後應該要給我因為我說從去年11月就已經諮詢了然後要請你們交報告到現在這個報告裡面還缺這個先跟口頭跟委員報告一下我們在郭部長指示下2月份由部裡頭召開一個協調會議那也把速發部主管機關找來"},{"start":14810.379,"end":14836.905,"text":"那也把那個相關的那個電商平台都找來我們就是希望進一步找出委員所提的一些問題那我們如何加強我們在會議上都有充分討論好謝謝標準局做的事情不過我們也還是要問因為從你的報告裡邊如果你講說二月份郭部長已經找相關的部會來討論的話那先來問你的報告裡邊回覆竟然寫是跨電"},{"start":14837.885,"end":14857.776,"text":"跨境電商因為我國的法令無意外的效率固難以規範這件事情想問的是說我們當時要你盤的是如果法規上不足的要去定法所以我不知道說現在如果二月份開完會之後這個解決了嗎"},{"start":14858.797,"end":14887.834,"text":"沒有 因為那個跨境電商這個部分我們去了解 survey 一下全世界也沒有一個跨境電商的一個管理即使各國都截然那所以這一塊我們暫時沒有辦法有一個很具體的答案跟委員回報但是我們強調的是說如果東西一旦進到境內我們會加強做境內的管控那目前我們是朝這個方向在積極的一個處理那這個部分有跟委員報告過有一天也是到委員辦公室來這部分我們會持續加強做前市場跟後市場的管理"},{"start":14888.114,"end":14892.199,"text":"不過歐盟在2023年5月就正式通過一般產品的安全規範"},{"start":14894.814,"end":14916.206,"text":"GPSR這邊新規定在2024年12月也就是全面生效要求所有包含跨境電商的商品都要符合歐盟的安全標準所以你這個是不是應該要把它考量進去剛剛跟我回答說沒有可是其實歐盟他們已經做可能要去考慮這種比較積極性的做法"},{"start":14920.769,"end":14933.458,"text":"上次您提到這個GPSR我們有去了解那它現在是一個非常粗犯的一個規範事實上它真正要執行到執行端的那個細節都還沒有出來所以我們會持續挖取它的一個相關規範再麻煩局長"},{"start":14935.86,"end":14950.072,"text":"那現在回收這一塊我想問一下就是這個發現違規是如何發現的就是是靠民眾檢舉投訴嗎然後每年回收改正的產品或兒童產品有多少"},{"start":14951.357,"end":14977.85,"text":"好先跟委員報告一下我們機制上在商品檢驗法的規範下我們派員檢查有兩種一種是我們的同仁市場檢查一種是夠樣檢測也就是說市場檢查是在市面上去看或者是網路上去查如果有商品檢驗法規範的他沒有因私檢驗的話我們就會可以依法通過是那我說那你們這樣做可是大概每年回收改正的產品或兒童產品有多少"},{"start":14978.75,"end":14989.63,"text":"我舉個例子我只要知道件數你們現在做到的是我舉個例子電商這一塊我們自從開始這樣子跟他合作之後我們下架大概一年有七八萬件"},{"start":14990.899,"end":15019.431,"text":"只要他發現是沒有要購的7、8萬件7萬多件那也要再提醒就是我們一直覺得宣導非常重要可是你的小安心粉專從2012年創立到現在13年那粉絲人數在5萬5啦所以我認為還是要再強化因為民眾他需要有知那可是他知道你們有這樣子的一個資訊平台讓他們知道嘛"},{"start":15020.711,"end":15034.996,"text":"還有一個積極檢驗這一塊也想請美季列為我們高風險的標的商品有哪些我們會定期公告可是我現在標檢局網站上我找不到高風險商品檢驗公開資訊"},{"start":15037.069,"end":15059.078,"text":"我們會後再跟文這邊說明一下網路上的查詢的方式我們再跟文這邊說明那剛剛John回答說有7萬件可是我們現在去看到的是說今天我只針對兒童產品了解下架回收的狀況結果發現我們的召回的兒童產品平均一年只有一件"},{"start":15060.342,"end":15088.274,"text":"我剛剛報告的是下架的數量是7萬件那委員說的回收我們有數字因為我現在手邊沒有我會後再提供給辦公室這是我們在你們網站上找到的只有一件可是你去看美國CPSC他們才短短的現在才3月他們已經有38件所以我覺得這是不是應該要去考慮就比較積極的做法讓台灣產品都很安全才可以保障到我們兒童"},{"start":15089.895,"end":15095.158,"text":"再來我們看到嬰屍檢項目這一塊就是標準局在給我報告當中現在總共33項可是足夠嗎因為我們看畫面上的嬰兒的車的風扇還有抽屜櫃的那個仿秦島的束帶那遮光捲簾這些目前都是美國CPSC裡面他們有已經提出一些警訊"},{"start":15117.09,"end":15139.37,"text":"會造成孩子手指夾傷或者是捲到脖子產生窒息的商品所以他們都已經有一些要求所以想問標檢局這種兒童產品的因試驗項目有逐年評估嗎你們評估機制是依據什麼人家事實上是有規劃有確定然後最後去做到然後從標檢局這邊可能就會有些要求在"},{"start":15139.932,"end":15160.323,"text":"有跟我們報告一下我們那個英式檢驗商品有一定的那個程序在走每一年如果社會關切像玩具這個就是過去幾年那個社會上一致的覺得它是一個高風險商品我們就把它列現在這些東西都有已經在如果美國他們已經有系統規劃已經知道這些商品所以對孩子產生傷害"},{"start":15160.822,"end":15178.084,"text":"是不是國內就應該要把列為英式檢驗項目可以 但是我們有一個程序會走就是要看到整個社會氛圍我們也要去知道國內的一個檢驗能量還有產業 從業界產業之間的一個協調才能作為英式檢驗的商品最後就是還是期待"},{"start":15178.865,"end":15178.965,"text":"好 謝謝好 謝謝"},{"start":15208.325,"end":15236.995,"text":"我們現在請黃國昌委員做詢答黃國昌委員不在黃國昌委員不在我們現在請王宏威委員做詢答王宏威委員 王宏威委員不在我們現在請李坤澄委員做詢答謝謝主席部長已經他請假他請假了好那我就請這一個台電董事長"},{"start":15238.643,"end":15243.163,"text":"沒關係你先喝口水真懂"},{"start":15245.683,"end":15272.976,"text":"是委員好來董事長好這個昨天你有有一個會議那我看了一下會議的一些結論那會議結論那你有提到就是說這個希望330度就是民生用電330度以下的這一個民生用電能夠做合理的調整那所以說因為接下來這月底就是電價審議委員會審議委員會要開會了那你釋出這樣的訊息是不是有想說這個"},{"start":15274.777,"end":15286.95,"text":"第一個是想說反映成本嗎就是說過去長期以來這一個民生用電的這個這個電費偏低所以要反映成本那還是說第二個希望藉由這個來減少台電的這個虧損"},{"start":15290.134,"end":15311.102,"text":"我跟委員報告就是說昨天事實上是有一個跟記者做了一些說明因為大家都非常關心電價那在這個題目上面狀況是這樣我們去說明的都是事實就是說目前為止台灣的電價級距裡面就330度以下的電費"},{"start":15313.024,"end":15326.99,"text":"是比20年前還要低比2004年還要低我要呈現的這是第一個這是事實真的是比較低第二個部分是台電雖然是國營事業但它也是一個營利事業"},{"start":15328.547,"end":15350.418,"text":"那這個部分如果要台電承擔我們認為說政府編列預算來支持是應該要有的工作全世界的一些民主國家也都做德國、日本、法國都做了相關的如果要電業承擔就要由政府來編列預算補貼的一個相關的對等措施"},{"start":15351.243,"end":15376.254,"text":"那我們是認為說如果電價繼續一低那是不是能夠把這個對等措施也能夠同時做起來就是兩件事情第一件事情就是說那一個你提到就是說這個330度以下民生用電你說反映一個事實嘛就是長期是偏低那所以我說你提出來這個事實是說比如說是想要反映成本那事實做調整"},{"start":15377.074,"end":15399.632,"text":"就是說如果我們認為說這個確實乖離成本而且比20年前還低其實違反常識那如果真的電價委員會如果還要做出一個決議就是說持續照顧民生那照顧民生這個部分政府也都編列了預算是不是能夠讓這個預算編列補貼台電的部分能夠真正落實"},{"start":15400.413,"end":15413.3,"text":"那我當然知道啦去年這個最佳1000億那今年也變成1000億但是看起來這2000億應該是很難通過啦那所以才會有接下來就是說好那台電第一個還在虧損當中虧損當中當然第一個這個政府"},{"start":15417.722,"end":15430.512,"text":"如果資金有業助進來那當然對於虧損而說有協助那對於虧損有協助其實漲價的這個壓力就沒有這麼大嘛對不對是的那第二個就是說那如果這兩千億沒有進來的話那台電該怎麼辦報告委員兩千我只能夠跟您說電價也不是台電決定對當然能不能補貼也不是台電決定"},{"start":15444.212,"end":15465.367,"text":"對我知道啊所以所以你才會所以我想說你是不是釋出那個訊息出來就是說因為民生電價長期來講比較偏低我們會希望我們真的會希望因為我要跟委員報告我們提的這些東西都是事實我們也希望社會能夠做合理的討論我們也希望能夠多做一點我們這都在合理的討論你把事實講出來那我們透過這個場域讓社會大眾知道這個事實"},{"start":15471.471,"end":15495.867,"text":"那第二個就是說你還有提到這個有可能會調整這個底度的規定因為過去這個底度的規定跟委員特別做報告感謝您關心因為底度是一個固定支出其實台灣有我們台電的電費統計裡面有100多萬戶有掛電表但是它一個月的用電度數其實不到20度接近150萬150萬的用戶都是講最低的電費而已20度"},{"start":15501.872,"end":15516.909,"text":"對角20度但它是接近空戶但問題是我們掛電錶設電路這些都有固定成本我們覺得隨著物價的上漲人工的費用也上漲這一些固定成本是不是應該做合理的反應尤其是針對空戶"},{"start":15518.751,"end":15544.769,"text":"對那所以說如果按照昨天有釋放出來訊息的話那是不是會把這一個底度把它調整比如說20度往上調調到30度或是40度我們希望的我們希望能夠跟部裡面討論的方式是現在這一些固定成本的邊境成本支出是不是能夠合理的做反應那是不是還要照著這種底度的觀念去做"},{"start":15545.529,"end":15573.501,"text":"就是幾度算是底度這一件事我們也會一併做檢討因為它是一個fixed cost它不是跟因為現在的公式現在的公式有點問題它是跟著變動成本去做計算這個就不對應該要回到固定成本觀念去做計算我來當董事長我也希望能夠把這一些過去電價表不完全合乎經濟邏輯的事情做一些調整在這邊一併跟委員做報告好那表示說這個底度會做調整就對了"},{"start":15577.047,"end":15582.031,"text":"對 就是基本的費用那我再問一下台電目前的財務的狀況目前負債多少我們負債"},{"start":15588.625,"end":15600.369,"text":"兩兆多啊累虧累虧是4229億對累虧啦2024年的計算就是累計虧成是到2024年是4229億嘛好那你們也試圖要舉債嘛對不對是的你們看我們這個今年預計要舉債1500億那去年已經有舉債多少1600億是好那"},{"start":15617.643,"end":15637.404,"text":"這個舉債當然是一個方式 那當然市場買不買帳是另外一回事那可是舉債就有成本啦 有利息啦 我問一下你們一年光是這個舉債利息是多少目前我們的平均利率大概在城上我們的舉債餘額大概一年要支出300億以上"},{"start":15638.223,"end":15660.012,"text":"一年光是利息有300億是的你們這300億是你們舉債是跟公股銀行借錢嗎還是怎麼樣我沒有發各種我還是要跟委員報告因為台電目前的狀況其實我們的利率台電舉借的利率實際上是比一般企業來講稍低一些稍低一些主要是母數很大就是我們的餘額很高還是有300億對"},{"start":15661.673,"end":15663.075,"text":"那所以目前來看的話你們的負債比已經高達九成二了那所以還有舉債的空間嗎"},{"start":15672.52,"end":15697.298,"text":"跟委員報告其實是因為我們不管我們這個市場債的市場有一定程度的未納量那這些銀行持有公司債也有一定比例的上限就是他持有單一公司的比例是有受到軍管會的一些限制的所以我們其實從去年開始我們發公司債的投標比就已經開始下降"},{"start":15699.76,"end":15720.795,"text":"那當然電費漲不漲最後不是你們來決定的那我也相信說如果這一個追加預算跟這個今年撥的預算總共兩千億能夠過當然對於台電的虧損會有所幫助那對台電虧損有所幫助其實就是減輕了全民的負擔其實應該是這樣子來講但是如果這兩千億落空的話"},{"start":15722.378,"end":15733.042,"text":"相信這一個漲價的壓力就會有啦但是這個不是台電你們這家公司的責任啦謝謝委員體諒 謝謝好 謝謝我們現在請武力華委員做詢答"},{"start":15752.225,"end":15755.44,"text":"謝謝主席 部長不在 請次長何市長"},{"start":15762.805,"end":15787.968,"text":"委員好次長好關於地熱我在1月的時候我也有來到這裡做質詢那當時也是部長不在請次長所以這個部分我就是跟您重新表達一下我上一次質詢的一個訴求這應該就不是你退休了那當時是提到說要做出一個行政指引"},{"start":15788.669,"end":15804.471,"text":"要有一個爭端的協調平台然後希望有政府投資部落入股的觀念進來也希望有一個地熱專區的示範點那辦理公聽會形成一種新型態的夥伴關係那今天看到我們的夜報"},{"start":15805.552,"end":15824.41,"text":"再生能源發展條例已經新增了地熱專章那地熱能的探勘與開發許可及管理辦法呢也已經公告施行那這裡面呢關於申請的一些條件也很清楚的寫著說在原住民族的土地部落的一個公有土地上"},{"start":15825.071,"end":15846.41,"text":"要有所謂的部落會議的一個相關的文件但是我今天是來關心因為有很多地方現在我們看到來做地熱開發他們選擇的是私有的原保地 私人的土地所以就會有一些些的意見 陳情 紛爭"},{"start":15848.692,"end":15867.562,"text":"那時至今日其實大家討論了那麼久大家都承認說地熱它不屬於私人的地主那麼它是屬於共享的資源現在大家慢慢有這個觀念了因為地熱不同於其他的能源開發所以呢我是想要請教一下市長"},{"start":15868.763,"end":15878.112,"text":"在這種沒有辦法突破現行私有地我們要來踐行部落諮商同意的機制這樣的一個狀況下您認為有沒有什麼好的替代方案可以確保我們在私有土地開發地熱的時候我們怎麼確保部落的權益我想聽聽看次長您的看法報告委員這個是按照那個"},{"start":15892.027,"end":15896.379,"text":"原住民基本法的這個規定那我是不是請我們那個代理署長來跟報告一下好 謝謝署長請"},{"start":15900.225,"end":15928.301,"text":"是 那謝謝委員跟我們的指教那毛委員也跟我們講過那不過我們現在依照我們的原基法第21條它只有要求公有土地那我們目的事業主管機關我們現在是必須要配合原基法那所以是不是要把私有土地納入或是可能需要在原基法那邊做適當的修改或是解釋那目前來講我們沒有辦法違反原基法的規定那有什麼報告"},{"start":15929.181,"end":15949.087,"text":"來 那我現在站在這邊質詢其實就是為了解決這件事因為事實是我們的地熱開發現在如果它在私有土地上會引起爭端因為將心比心我家旁邊的私有地上在做地熱的專炭"},{"start":15951.24,"end":15978.84,"text":"然後完全不需要去來徵求我的同意那這樣子部落就會抗爭那對廠商來講他也覺得做這些投資好可怕那我現在說像前經濟部長王美花部長的時候那時候我們在修礦業法我們就有要求說去做一個指引那這個指引也做出來了那現在是問題就是出在說我們的公有地"},{"start":15979.5,"end":15984.482,"text":"他會有一個狀況我都還沒有獲利對廠商來講我就要談回饋因為他必須要去鑽探結果有可能是沒有開發的價值他就覺得好可怕我都還沒有獲利公有地就要踐行部落諮商同意要談利益分享機制對他來講很為難可是呢對私有地主來講呢或者部落來講我都還沒有同意我就要去被鑽探所以呢這件事情我們就一直希望說政府的態度"},{"start":16009.471,"end":16020.316,"text":"要拿出來那上次有來辦公室跟我報告說目前地熱也打算來做指引那做了沒有進行到什麼階段那內容大概是什麼"},{"start":16022.427,"end":16038.473,"text":"目前有在做那大概我們還會找一些相關的利害關係的團體來共同討論最後才會確認下來所以確實有在做了是是那可能要相關的利害團體我們還要爭取大家意見然後最後確定下來這樣好"},{"start":16039.833,"end":16053.377,"text":"我還是要強調地熱它很特別它不屬於私人地主大家都認為它是屬於共享的資源所以我希望說像這種私有地開發的部落知情同意必須要在地熱開發做一個治理的模式"},{"start":16056.258,"end":16064.325,"text":"例如訂定部落契約去處理這些可能發生的爭議那怎麼樣去執行廠商在申請許可文件的時候要有這樣的一個部落契約那我想這個是希望達到三贏有一點類似三方契約因為公有土地是很明確的要去廠商跟部落之間去做諮商同意但是這種私有地的"},{"start":16080.76,"end":16107.314,"text":"那他的部落契約可能是還要去涉及到一個部落的一個知情同意那我希望說未來在這樣的一個開發模式上面呢我們希望可以很清楚的提到那更何況是我們提到的就是部落入股那讓部落不僅僅是被動的提供這個土地接受開發而是希望能夠建立一種新型態的夥伴關係那希望政府 廠商"},{"start":16108.174,"end":16130.752,"text":"部落或私人我們都能夠達到一個雙贏的地步也能夠共同的去完成我們政府國家定定的一個目標這樣可以嗎是的謝謝委員指教我們會來把他那我也希望說就是能夠在你們辦理地熱論壇之前能夠到我的辦公室我希望得到一個回覆"},{"start":16131.909,"end":16157.199,"text":"是 可以OK好謝謝次長謝謝組長謝謝主席謝謝委員好謝謝我們現在請劉許廷委員做詢答劉許廷委員不在劉許廷委員不在我們現在請羅明才委員做詢答羅明才委員不在羅明才委員不在我們現在請葉元之委員做詢答葉元之委員葉元之委員不在我們現在請林德福委員做詢答林德福委員林德福委員不在我們現在請羅志強委員做詢答羅志強委員羅志強委員不在我們現在請"},{"start":16160.64,"end":16165.808,"text":"林思敏委員做詢答林思敏委員林思敏委員不在我們現在請陳冠廷委員做詢答你好我們請次長何次長"},{"start":16179.381,"end":16207.072,"text":"委員好 次長好 次長我們現在剛才聽到在質詢的時候你已經有提到我們台電累積虧損是4200多億那現在在野黨又刪減大概是1000億來去撥發給台電的預算那所以這樣對國營事業的財務健全我想是會造成一些挑戰那目前這樣聽起來的話是不是這個審議委員會會有漲電價的因應的可能性是不是越來越高"},{"start":16208.569,"end":16221.907,"text":"我想任何的資訊我們都會提供給審議委員會那因為審議委員會裡面有工商團體也有消費者保護的團體那我想大家會綜合我們台電提供的資料大家會做出一個判斷"},{"start":16223.468,"end":16243.558,"text":"好 謝謝因為我特別提到你剛才講到工商還有消費者那我還要特別提到一件事情那就是農業線的農業的相關用電那最近你大概知道說今年大概是這10年來最冷的一年那日照日照的這個時數其實也相對的沒有那麼像其他年份那麼多"},{"start":16244.358,"end":16270.498,"text":"那所以說有一些火龍果的產區特別是我們嘉愛縣的火龍果產區他們直接就在反映說很憂心未來的電價可能調漲影響到他們的農業用電照明的時間那過去火龍果是冬天點燈嘛就冬季的時候來去做點燈但是這一次我們因為這十年來的這個氣候變遷比較嚴重的今年的這個狀況所以說他們從十月點燈到現在"},{"start":16274.52,"end":16291.368,"text":"那這樣子會造成他們的負擔日照又少要忍很久然後必須要再把這個電費可能就是又要提高所以我擔心電價再調升可能會對他們難以生存那我有再次再強調說我們知道說農業用電是有優惠的我們可以理解"},{"start":16292.088,"end":16310.441,"text":"但是對農民的這些朋友來說還是會有負擔那我們總統有提到說叫均衡台灣均衡台灣的目標不是讓這些工業的越來越好讓農業的這些相對弱勢越來越差相反的是要做一些電價上面未來的這些調整都必須要納入考量"},{"start":16311.56,"end":16326.18,"text":"經濟部有沒有了解這一類的高耗電我們不是只限縮於火龍果還有一些重要的這些精緻農業這些所面臨的困境那有沒有一些具體的措施可以解決他們的負擔有沒有一些想法好 那"},{"start":16326.82,"end":16353.221,"text":"針對委員這個提問就是說其實各目的世界主管機關對一些比較弱勢或是需要照顧的的團體其實他們都會做一些電價的一個補助預算的編列那這個也是院裡面也正式也指示從今年開始要回到各目的世界主管機關針對所屬的團體他們要如果要做一些電價的優惠的話可能就是要"},{"start":16354.001,"end":16379.665,"text":"編入預算 所以我想這個部分應該農委會農業部的部分應該也會做一些考量那我要求經濟部跟農業部我們來研議一下針對受衝擊的農業的這個種類樣態來去具體的檢討來提出一個合理的方案好不好來去降低農民朋友的負擔這樣子可不可以 市長這個可以可不可以跨部會跟農業部來做一下如果有需要的話我們會跟農業部這邊來好 謝謝 謝謝市長好 謝謝委員"},{"start":16384.121,"end":16403.598,"text":"好 謝謝 我們現在請陳培宇委員做詢答陳培宇委員不在 陳培宇委員不在我們現在請徐副委委員做詢答謝謝主席 有請我們台電鄭董事長鄭董事長"},{"start":16410.014,"end":16433.617,"text":"委員好 董事長午安那我想這個河山廠二號機在今年五月要除役嘛那我想這個台電的這個河山廠的這個安全性後續仍是很重要 董事長支持這樣的論調嗎一定一定啦 我也跟委員報告我們那個火警之後我週末我就下去河山督導了"},{"start":16435.134,"end":16463.168,"text":"那我想今天還是要再特別提醒一下董事長根據本席掌握的狀況我們在3月6號早上11點18分河山場發生火警之後縣政府是在7分鐘之後才接到我們的通報那當時第一時間我想我有打電話給廠長關心這個火災的狀況雖然是講起來是一個很小的一個火災但是對我們當地的鄉親造成很大的一個恐懼"},{"start":16464.793,"end":16492.707,"text":"那所以我們還是要提的部分我想現場前幾天也約見了我們河山廠的廠長他們特別要求針對這樣的一個救災的通報的SOP那我不曉得董事長這邊我們總共是我跟委員報告幾個事情第一個事情是我想我們的副總就許副總有親自去跟因為其實當天之後就有電話上面跟平庸縣政府做聯絡事後也有去跟現場致歉就是"},{"start":16493.507,"end":16521.985,"text":"我們的同仁判斷這是一個就是他其實在場就是在廠房外一個水塔失火河山廠有自己的消防隊他們覺得自己可以解決就自己在那邊努力解決通報這件事讓地方政府知道這件事其實是並行優先的所以我們也檢討我們的通報措施就是我們的通報措施其實類似這樣的一個狀況縱使河山廠自己有能力把火撲滅"},{"start":16523.166,"end":16537.806,"text":"也應該要通報主管機關因為無論如何地方的主管機關他有他的管轄權甚至有管轄義務尤其是對於我們的電廠來講我們應該要充分的告知地方主管機關這一點我們一定會檢討"},{"start":16539.068,"end":16563.029,"text":"董事長我想雖然是很小的火災但是當一旦河山廠冒出黑煙這對他們的恐懼感真的很大真的不能等閒視之所以我想針對這個案子之後也希望我們總公司跟我們河山廠未來在處理之後一樣要建構這樣的一個通報一個體系不能這樣輕易的認為自己可以處理就自己處理了我們一定會加強改善"},{"start":16566.718,"end":16581.151,"text":"那董事長請教一下就是針對河山場除役之後當然過去我們河山場對我們這個地方的基礎建設還有社會福利也扮演很重要的一個角色那後續在除役之後針對這樣一個回饋的一個機制是不是會受到影響"},{"start":16582.503,"end":16598.921,"text":"我們轉到那個核後端除疫就會依照除疫的辦法來進行原則上會照著這個辦法來做對這個部分鄉親可能也比較擔心我想這個因為我們後續還是針對一個所謂的健康跟安全的考量"},{"start":16599.401,"end":16612.966,"text":"而且我們還有一些的一些相關的一些人力的設備都在那邊所以還是應該要持續做這樣一個安全的管控是的好謝謝那董事長請回那請一下我們何政次跟我們水利署長委員好"},{"start":16624.034,"end":16648.803,"text":"政事署長我想本期上任之後一直很關心我們大潮州人工湖的第二期的進度那我知道經濟部在去年有送到行政院但是11月份被行政院推薦那有幾個理由我覺得很離譜第一個就是沒有完成第一期的成效評估還有沒有完成所謂的環境影響差異的審查還有今年並沒有編列所謂本案的相關預算"},{"start":16649.703,"end":16677.714,"text":"那其中最離譜的是我們竟然是參酌民國92年的砂石量的一個計算基準用每立方公尺50元計算那目前南部地區政治資料目前現在一立方公尺多少錢嗎現在已經高達400塊到450塊了這相差很多倍啊那為什麼會有出現這樣子一個這麼嚴重的落差呢能不能說明一下好 我請我們那個署長來說明一下"},{"start":16680.158,"end":16707.348,"text":"報告委員那這個案件就是在去年連結的時候行政院這邊有大概初步的審議那就按照剛剛委員講的意見那請這個開發單位因為這個案件是屏東縣政府送出來那我們來合轉到行政院徵取預算那現在等於是送回請縣政府這邊再來加強評估尤其是效益的部分在上一次會議最關鍵就是效益評估的部分"},{"start":16708.376,"end":16730.456,"text":"那我想這點還是要特別拜託一下我們經濟部跟水利署我想這個水跟電尤其我們現在面臨很多這個產業的需求水跟電是不可或缺那尤其我們民生用水的部分大潮州軟公湖是扮演一個很重要的角色這點要請次長跟署長這邊幫忙那另外再請一下我們自然水公司李董事長"},{"start":16734.002,"end":16752.768,"text":"我想過去我們屏東縣的自來水普及率好不容易在去年突破了七成但是若依目前我們自來水的普及率的增加速度一年2%到3%的速度我們還要再過十年屏東縣才可以趕得上全國的普及率這點真的是"},{"start":16754.509,"end":16773.6,"text":"說的鄉親好,很晚談了我想站在經濟部的立場跟我們自來水公司的立場怎麼樣能夠強化這個自來水普及率的進度可不可以請說明一下謝謝委員的指教那屏東縣普及率目前113年是71.65其實從106年到113年公司已經投入了將近100億在改善屏東縣的一個自來水的一個"},{"start":16782.985,"end":16810.865,"text":"普及的提升包括我們建置的淨水廠跟一些的沿管工程那水利署這邊也提到了沿管的計畫五期的計畫有100億左右5年那114年大概已經給屏東縣有9億那我們配合地方就是一些有需求的這些住戶來提出申請那水公司會提水利署這邊評比"},{"start":16812.006,"end":16837.094,"text":"那一年大概也有八九億的經費來投入在屏東縣這一塊的沿館董事長我知道你們很積極但是因為我們屏東縣這個府地遼闊這有時候我們那個評估的機制這個有些比較偏遠的鄉親真的要等到望眼欲穿這真的要很辛苦,要吃熱水很辛苦是不是可以增加一下預算跟速度一下這部分再拜託大家幫忙一下"},{"start":16838.154,"end":16860.232,"text":"我也順便跟委員報告一下其實在這個無自來水改善我們一年大概現在有21億在未來五年計畫光屏東這邊就佔了四成那我們現在水利署跟自來水公司都是全力在投入把集中活力就像委員所談的現在屏東的普及率偏低我們要趕快把它趕上來我想我們會來努力"},{"start":16860.912,"end":16885.024,"text":"另外一個還是要提醒自家水公司針對這個管線維修的速度要快一點有的地方今天北省人工我們的開口契約的速度真的是太慢了根本報告我們公司有內部檢討針對問題我們有提了一些改善的方案尤其是偏鄉離島部分真的要加強這個開口契約的量能再拜託一下董事長這邊再關心一下好謝謝"},{"start":16887.79,"end":16906.48,"text":"好谢谢那现在请徐新英委员做询答徐新英委员徐新英委员不在现在请蔡议员做询答蔡议员蔡议员不在登记发言委员除不在场外其余均已发言完毕询答结束委员罗志强陈超明林德福"},{"start":16907.14,"end":16921.747,"text":"紐許庭 蔡易瑜所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆部分請相關單位於一週內以書面答覆並複製本會本日議程進行到此現在散會 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"159503","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159503","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb054fd7ffbd770cb2001b4bb3d6676f3fd8a3637366d38864242ffa54afed2a8c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"13:22:41 - 13:29:31","影片長度":"00:06:50","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T13:22:41+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T13:29:31+08:00","duration":410,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.19784375,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.656593750000003,"end":21.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.90096875,"end":21.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.91784375,"end":22.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.01909375,"end":23.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.36909375,"end":55.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.402843750000002,"end":24.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.46534375,"end":56.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.84909375,"end":57.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.18659375,"end":57.962843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.962843750000005,"end":63.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.502843750000004,"end":59.211593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.62034375,"end":63.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.71721875,"end":66.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.71284375,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.20596875000001,"end":69.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.85534375,"end":81.75659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.53284375000001,"end":86.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.36784375,"end":86.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.35909375,"end":88.48971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.58659375,"end":89.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.60346875,"end":97.50096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.03784375000001,"end":91.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.29096875,"end":92.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.50096875000001,"end":123.64034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.97346875000001,"end":128.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.65221875,"end":129.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.63096875000002,"end":142.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.57159375,"end":131.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.24909375000001,"end":153.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.06596875,"end":159.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.56284375,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.03096875,"end":162.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.14471875,"end":163.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.24596875,"end":163.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.29659375,"end":170.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.46909375,"end":168.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.86534375000002,"end":168.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.94534375,"end":184.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.53596875000002,"end":170.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.39659375000002,"end":171.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.65784375,"end":175.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.28471875000002,"end":186.12846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.48284375,"end":194.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.80221875,"end":197.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.18159375000002,"end":197.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.24909375000001,"end":197.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.51909375000002,"end":204.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.74159375000002,"end":204.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.94409375,"end":205.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.02846875,"end":212.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.33159375000002,"end":209.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.62659375,"end":238.00221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.52534375000002,"end":245.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.28784375,"end":248.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.66721875000002,"end":258.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.68659375000004,"end":263.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.68596875000003,"end":264.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.17096875000004,"end":266.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.18346875000003,"end":266.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.84159375,"end":272.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.62971875,"end":282.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.34971875,"end":289.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.14596875,"end":296.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","st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請密切注意我們不希望有這樣的情況發生來 我們開始看下一頁目前超高齡社會以我屏東的長幼人口的比例來看因為我們屏東縣大概不到79萬"},{"start":109.48,"end":127.553,"text":"六到十五歲的在學人口,就是國民教育人口呢,77.3%那六十五歲呢,反而是20.4%,將近三倍好,那這個嚴重的情況呢,我再舉個例子,讓你知道什麼情況,來往下看那以車神鄉為例,你知道車神鄉是誰的故鄉嗎?"},{"start":129.713,"end":152.765,"text":"我們潘孟安秘書長的故鄉車城鄉六十五歲的長輩有一千七百五十三人但是車城國中跟車城國小全部的在學人口六到十五歲的一共不到六百人那我們現在想想看部長請教一下 次長請教一下假如要在車城辦營養午餐你覺得有可能用個中央廚房嗎"},{"start":154.147,"end":159.073,"text":"其實這地方政府如果提出計畫的話可惜你們會為600個不到的學生地區設一個央廚嗎央廚我們有一個經濟規模"},{"start":163.889,"end":184.188,"text":"這個央處的話中央廚房的話大概都是大概兩三千人嘛但是它會有一個是的有個公餐區但是也不能太遠啊你太遠的話呢超過備餐時間會有營養品質的問題對不對好往下看來我們來看一下老幼共學是一個補償的學習為什麼要提到老幼共學呢你知道嗎現在什麼時候實施九年國教的"},{"start":185.879,"end":211.956,"text":"1968年好所以說現在70歲以上的長輩啊當年他年輕的時候不是他私學是國家沒有提供他念國中的機會是不是這樣子可是現在的孩子可以念12年啊對不對所以你認為如果現在有機會讓這些70歲以上的長輩回到校園來是一種補償的心理是不是可以補償他當然如果這個地方有一個完備的比較好的一個規劃就補償他嘛對在政策性引導這是一個好的未來"},{"start":212.296,"end":237.432,"text":"所以我們說老幼共學其實不是因為年輕的孩子少了我們把老人家抓來學校 不是是這些長輩在年輕的時候因為國家的設備資源不足他們失去了這三年可以再學的學習期間我們要補償他 我們現在看所以我們來看一下屏東的我們老幼共學領先台北市五年我們利用老人日照 十字據點和學校的閒置空間讓社區共同使用來老幼共學但是老幼共學有一個問題"},{"start":239.394,"end":256.87,"text":"長輩他對於到學校裡面去學什麼國中小的課程沒有興趣你知道長輩最有興趣做什麼事情嗎最有興趣是什麼做實作他希望把他的生命經驗跟小朋友分享然後呢從小朋友那邊得到他對現在的知識小朋友最常教長輩什麼事情你知道嗎小朋友在老幼過程中最常教長輩怎樣利用手機網路"},{"start":265.359,"end":280.528,"text":"好 往下看來 那麼另外呢我們提到跨世代學習也在屏東屏東基督教醫院發展的食農勞用共學用農學 食農教育的基礎讓長輩跟小朋友共同去了解好 最後要講結論了往下看以鄉圍單位來共餐"},{"start":282.449,"end":304.706,"text":"教育部支持之下在屏東縣投資了將近2億做了一個宿舍跟中央廚房可以供應500份午餐大同中學在屏東市區我的母鄉那邊好幾個國中加起來學生整個500份呢還不夠所以如果以鄉鎮為公餐單位來設營養午餐的央廚的話恐怕都會可以偏鄉做不到是不是這樣子"},{"start":305.848,"end":321.722,"text":"沒有錯好 那我們往下看所以呢我之前在2020年的設立院會執行我提出鄉鄉有央廚但是呢現在又加上三張EQ教育部有經費支持 是不是我們政府來設立央廚食材才統一的國產品教育部支持嘛"},{"start":322.935,"end":348.638,"text":"支持但是這樣就成鄉分佈不均啊我們大概只能在這些人口密集區設秧除人口細胞 地廣人稀的地方恐怕有困難怎麼辦來我給你一個建議什麼意思把供應能量如果大於在學的學生還記得車程箱嗎車程箱的學生不到六百個可是老人家有一千七百多個如果把這些的公餐對象拿進來車程箱設個秧除有效益的您同意嗎"},{"start":350.029,"end":376.043,"text":"獨具老人 文化健康站 關懷據點還有學校都納進來這個跨單位的話我們就是要對 跨單位說要分工嘛 往下看最後 鄉鄉有央廚 跨部會來促成實現教育部來協助在學校的空間設央廚衛福部幫長輩的餐食經費補貼而教育部可以媒合農業部可以媒合在地食材您覺得這樣的部會分工 您支持嗎教育部支持嗎"},{"start":376.363,"end":384.041,"text":"如果部會能夠分工 那屏東已經有小規模事辦成功的例子我覺得是可以來考慮的好 謝謝主席站起來 是我的結論"},{"start":386.789,"end":406.167,"text":"超高齡社會把教育權利還給長輩提供老幼共學並以共餐為基礎讓老人家來學校吃一頓午餐同時來一個老幼共學另外鄉鄉有央廚希望能夠跟農業部還有衛福部共同的合作將我們央廚的共餐的對象把長輩引納入我們共同來推動好不好好謝謝委員關心謝謝謝謝市長謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1260,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（13時22分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請我們張廖次長。"],["主席：次長備質詢，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長，今天我們談學校午餐法，偏鄉設央廚，學校午餐納長輩，老幼共餐促共學跨部會分工。","我們來看另外一個題目，先問一下，今天有人在問，藍白刪預算影響國軍出國深造，最近在臉書上、網路上有說，有一個當事人向國家申請了獎學金，被立法院預算刪了，停發！部長，有聽到這樣一個網路消息嗎？臺灣博士生因為藍白刪預算，留學獎學金暫時停發，延宕一年，有沒有？"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為是剛才委員質詢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：我之前有聽說。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有聽說。那你有沒有看到當事人也澄清了他不是拿教育部的經費。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以我們也澄清了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：結果這是什麼？是拿國防部的？這個當事人是不是拿國防部的？所以我們看到國外旅費及出國教育訓練費，教育部是統刪60%，可流用，但是國防部所屬的統刪15%，不能流用，所以國防部的這一名受到影響，是不是這樣？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個部分可能要國防部那邊……"],["鍾委員佳濱：國防部回復？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：教育部會不會受影響？目前有沒有受到影響？目前教育部有沒有公費留考的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：但是我們業務費25%裡面具體的影響目前……"],["鍾委員佳濱：還在盤查當中？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請密切注意，我們不希望有這樣的情況發生。","來，我們開始看。目前超高齡社會以屏東長幼人口比例來看，因為我們屏東縣大概不到79萬，6到15歲在學人口，就是國民教育人口大概是7.3%，65歲反而是20.4%，將近3倍。關於這個嚴重的情況，我再舉個例子讓你知道是什麼情況，以車城鄉為例，你知道車城鄉是誰的故鄉嗎？是我們潘孟安秘書長的故鄉。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：車城鄉65歲的長輩有1,753人，但是車城國中跟車城國小全部的在學人口、6到15歲的一共不到600人。我們現在想想看，次長，請教一下，假如要在車城辦營養午餐，你覺得有可能用中央廚房嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實地方政府如果提出計畫的話，可行的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們會為600個學生不到的地區設一個央廚嗎？央廚有沒有一個經濟規模？"],["張廖次長萬堅：中央廚房的話，大概都是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：大概是兩、三千人。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，但是它會有一個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：會有一個供餐區，但是也不能太遠，太遠的話超過備餐時間，會有營養品質的問題，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是，沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來，我們看一下老幼共學是一個補償學習，為什麼要提到老幼共學呢？你知道嗎？什麼時候實施9年國教？1968年！所以現在70歲以上的長輩，當年他年輕的時候不是他失學，是國家沒有提供他念國中的機會，是不是這樣子？可是現在孩子可以念12年，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你認不認為，如果現在有機會讓這些70歲以上的長輩回到校園來是一種補償的心理？是不是可以補償他？"],["張廖次長萬堅：如果這個地方有一個完備的、比較好的規劃……"],["鍾委員佳濱：補償他嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，政策性引導是一個好的未來趨勢。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。所以我們知道老幼共學其實不是因為年輕的孩子少了，我們把老人家抓來學校，不是！是這些長輩在年輕的時候，因為國家的設備、資源不足，他們失去了這三年可以再學的學習期間，我們要補償他。","所以我們來看屏東的老幼共學領先臺北市5年，我們利用老人日照、失智關懷據點和學校的閒置空間讓社區共同使用，讓老幼共學。但是老幼共學有一個問題，長輩對於到學校裡面去學國中小的課程沒有興趣，你知道長輩最有興趣做什麼事情嗎？最有興趣是什麼？做實作！他希望把他的生命經驗跟小朋友分享，然後從小朋友那邊得到他對現在的知識，小朋友最常教長輩什麼事情，你知道嗎？小朋友在老幼共學中最常教長輩怎樣利用手機網路掛號。另外，我們提到跨世代學習，也在屏東基督教醫院發展食農老幼共學，用食農教育為基礎，讓長輩跟小朋友共同去了解。","最後要講結論了，以鄉為單位供餐，在教育部支持之下，在屏東縣投資了將近2億做了一個宿舍跟中央廚房，可以供應500份午餐，大同中學在屏東市區──我的母校，那邊好幾個國中學生加起來還不夠這500份，所以如果以鄉鎮為供餐單位來設計營養午餐的央廚的話，恐怕都會可以，偏鄉做不到，是不是這樣子？"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以之前我在2020年12月的院會質詢提出鄉鄉有央廚，但是現在又加上三章一Q，教育部有經費支持，是不是？我們政府設立央廚，食材統一採購國產品，教育部支持嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是這樣有一個問題，城鄉分布不均，我們大概只能在這些人口密集處設央廚，人口稀少、地廣人稀的地方恐怕有困難，怎麼辦？來，我給你建議，什麼意思？供應能量如果大於在學的學生，還記得車城鄉嗎？車城鄉的學生不到600個，可是老人家有1,700多個，如果把這些供餐對象納進來，車城鄉設個央廚是有效益的，您同意嗎？獨居老人、文化健康站、關懷據點，還有學校都納進來。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，跨單位的話我們就是要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，跨單位，所以我知道要分工。最後，鄉鄉有央廚，跨部會來促成實現，教育部協助在學校空間設央廚，衛福部幫長輩的餐食經費做補貼，而農業部可以媒合在地食材，您覺得這樣的部會分工，您支持嗎？教育部支持嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：如果部會能夠分工，屏東已經有小規模試辦成功的例子，我覺得是可以來考慮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，主席站起來了，所以我的結論就是，超高齡社會把教育權利還給長輩，提供老幼共學，並以共餐為基礎，讓老人家來學校吃一頓午餐，同時來一個老幼共學。另外，鄉鄉有央廚，希望能夠跟農業部、衛福部共同合作，把長輩也納入我們央廚的供餐對象，我們共同來推動，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝委員關心，我們參考。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員質詢，官員請回座，謝謝。","我們接著繼續質詢，請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159502","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159502","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0d191f5c315d2326c01b4bb3d6676f3fd8a3637366d388642cb8972f08e7de1aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"13:09:37 - 13:16:24","影片長度":"00:06:47","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T13:09:37+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T13:16:24+08:00","duration":407,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":2.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.071593750000002,"end":34.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.47409375,"end":28.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.17409375,"end":29.460968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.64159375,"end":34.658468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.19846875,"end":35.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.83534375,"end":37.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.88159375,"end":38.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.32034375,"end":90.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.31221875,"end":95.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.36221875000001,"end":114.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.04971875000001,"end":98.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.26221875,"end":114.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.76409375,"end":161.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.91159375000001,"end":116.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.98596875000001,"end":126.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.03221875000001,"end":127.42034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.67721875,"end":131.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.47971875000002,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.03659375,"end":156.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.14971875,"end":158.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.84159375000002,"end":158.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.87534375,"end":169.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.87784375,"end":172.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.85221875000002,"end":184.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.37534375,"end":175.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.46221875,"end":190.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.45284375,"end":191.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.81971875000002,"end":194.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.13159375,"end":197.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.79346875000002,"end":204.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.10471875000002,"end":237.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.38784375,"end":228.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.27346875,"end":232.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.59721875000002,"end":237.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.61409375000002,"end":237.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.63096875000002,"end":240.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.82471875000002,"end":241.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.92159375000003,"end":266.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.62534375,"end":248.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.51471875000001,"end":253.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.88971875000001,"end":256.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.46221875000003,"end":264.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.55909375000005,"end":268.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.95096875,"end":292.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.09659375,"end":282.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.97409375,"end":284.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.03721875,"end":285.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.98096875000005,"end":300.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.40596875,"end":302.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.22846875000005,"end":331.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.32534375,"end":303.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.23221875,"end":333.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.54409375,"end":353.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.80721875,"end":388.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.10659375,"end":353.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.64596875,"end":357.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.08471875000004,"end":358.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.18596875000003,"end":359.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.97471875,"end":359.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.98284375000003,"end":404.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.18346875000003,"end":402.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.88784375,"end":404.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.1028437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謝謝主席 那我們本席是不是先請我們教育部次長 張教授次長和我想會計處的吳副處長跟公務預算處的專委黃子涵專委一起上來好不好好 請官員移去備諮訓這是時間的限制 所以我想說先準備著那之後可能彭處長或許某種程度會麻煩您好"},{"start":37.177,"end":62.153,"text":"次長你好委員好我們在今天這個學校公餐法的這樣一個議題裡面許多委員都提出了營養午餐的這個相關法案那我們知道在年報告裡面也說這個學校衛生法已經有做了一些規範可是如果在這樣的情況下大家都有這樣子的關心我想裡面點出了一個問題就是人力短缺經費不足還有公餐的品質參差不齊的問題"},{"start":62.913,"end":90.025,"text":"那當然很多人都依據了這個監察院所提的一個報告那審計部 抱歉 這個審計部這邊所提到一個報告2019到2024都有這樣子的一個狀況那您在剛才回應我也一直聽到對專法的各項的一個評論那本席在這邊就直接問如果您剛才講的那一些考慮的要素都沒有的話您對專法的支持度 您的態度是如何"},{"start":90.585,"end":113.677,"text":"專訪的精神我們都支持所以精神上您支持現在我們有一些要討論的部分接下來本席就討論一下營養午餐的補助還有財務方面的一個議題其實我們現在營養午餐的政策比較已經有狀況的就是經費補助的不穩定性根據教育部的報告目前很穩定"},{"start":114.958,"end":126.592,"text":"您覺得很穩定嗎那我想這個很重要的一個問題就是說中央跟地方那本席這邊要提到一個問題就是說那目前您的補助大概在74億左右如果我的資料這邊是對的那當然未來你們要討論這個中央跟地方"},{"start":130.917,"end":150.462,"text":"我這邊要先提出一個問題很重要的是那全台22個縣市10個縣市提供免費營養午餐那其他縣市要收費那許多偏鄉地區經費就已經不足了只能提供冷便當或者是低價的團餐那這樣子的公餐品質對於偏鄉的學童其實有一些不太公平"},{"start":150.942,"end":153.984,"text":"目前偏鄉的中央廚房歷屆以來補助六十多億現在每年補助它包括交通費包括運作費用"},{"start":169.966,"end":186.08,"text":"已經這個21億好的那您有講到目前補助的這個經費嘛好所以我們有沒有考慮提供最低營養午餐的這個經費讓學童的健康及安全有一些保障其實我們今天其實一直在談就是說我們都願意可是這個經費在財發法之後"},{"start":189.603,"end":195.188,"text":"你一直提到財化法嘛我們就目前的這個狀況市長我沒有跟你提財化法的任何問題但我們受到財化法的影響是事實未來的經費分擔確實是事實我覺得這個不能不談謝謝那我們就談現在遭遇的這個問題剛才本席也聽到前面委員談到營養師那還有一個很重要的問題本席這邊要談到儲供"},{"start":213.742,"end":227.708,"text":"所以一個根本的問題就是人力的問題那這個監察院的相關報告其實也談到每位營養師要監督目前您剛才也講到全國有500位公職的營養師但是每一位營養師要監督的是3600份午餐點每一位營養師縣市要"},{"start":234.071,"end":252.143,"text":"負擔八千名學生這你覺得顧得好嗎你的數字 那個委員你的數字可能會有點問題那你提供給我囉好 我們剛才其實報告裡面報告一百一十四年度我們法定應該聘的是四百七十四好 法定嘛你們都聘完了嗎實際聘的是聘六百八十一還有專案經理人一百人所以現在有七百八十一人"},{"start":252.603,"end":268.17,"text":"那我們的布板修法裡面希望550人一人我們班級人數不太一定以550人為基準的話大概會增加兩億七千多萬我們在布的精神是支持的好 精神上支持嘛那你們一直講財化法那我們就財化法見了好不好"},{"start":270.211,"end":283.995,"text":"本席這邊很重要的就是說偏鄉剛才一直講到偏鄉我們不希望你們在處理未來的問題本席今天都沒有跟你談到財化法你自己把本席帶進這個世界所以本席不接受我們在講基本的這個問題在偏鄉未來再考慮到各縣市的財政希望教育部正視這個問題我們不希望"},{"start":293.035,"end":306.953,"text":"偏鄉或者是財力比較差的縣市在這個部分受到權益上的不公平那這中央地方要一起來努力喔好那我們加油齁好最後運動部本席這邊跟你們提醒幾個問題齁"},{"start":309.295,"end":331.611,"text":"整个运动产业发展条例我们希望这个会期是很重要的一个优先法案但是目前在大家所提的内容上都以租税优惠为主但是我相信府院我们都在讨论如何推动产业化所以我们在除了调整租税优惠那在产业发展的一个长期目标上你们有没有什么做法那个来 市长"},{"start":334.688,"end":350.079,"text":"報委員我想運動產業我們面臨一個最主要的問題就是我們的消費人口規律運動人口的確是不夠多所以我們的產業才會在停滯所以我們目前按照總統的這樣一個政見競技運動全民化往這個方向我們來提出提升民眾參與擴大全民運動的一個基本盤"},{"start":351.84,"end":361.162,"text":"好的 署長我知道在私下跟您的交流當中其實您對於推動全民或者是用俱樂部或某一些跟內容相關的全民化我想您有很認真的在做但是本席這邊談到產業化那也希望在你這個方向上能夠有更大的一個作為最後提醒兩點"},{"start":374.826,"end":391.888,"text":"運動經濟的規劃跟本席從一來就談到單項協會的問題本席今天因為受限時間在這邊不多談但是單項協會如何在我們全民體育跟產業化的過程當中能夠有很好的一個功能這個是我們其實要處理的"},{"start":392.369,"end":406.178,"text":"那另外運動競技的證照制度還有資格考核的一致性公平性這個本席在這邊先做提醒那未來我會方法我們會入案好不好OK好謝謝謝謝林倩琦委員的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1159,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（13時9分）謝謝主席，本席先請我們教育部次長張廖次長、會計處的吳副處長跟公務預算處的專委黃子菡專委一起上來，好不好？"],["主席：好，請官員依序備質詢。"],["林委員倩綺：因為時間的限制，所以我想先準備著，之後或許某種程度會麻煩彭署長。次長你好。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：今天我們在學校供餐法這樣的一個議題裡面，許多委員都提出了營養午餐的相關法案，我們知道你們的報告裡面也說，學校衛生法已經有做了一些規範，可是如果在這樣的情況下，大家都有這樣的關心，我想裡面點出了一些問題，就是人力短缺、經費不足，還有供餐品質參差不齊的問題。當然很多人都依據審計部所提的一個報告，2019到2024都有這樣的狀況，您剛才的回應我也一直聽到對專法的各項評論，本席在這邊就直接問，如果您剛才講的那些考慮的要素都沒有的話，對於專法的支持度，您的態度是如何？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想專法的精神我們都支持。"],["林委員倩綺：所以精神上你支持嘛。"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以才會有部版。"],["林委員倩綺：現在我們有一些要討論的部分。"],["張廖次長萬堅：現在最大的問題就是經費的問題。"],["林委員倩綺：OK，好，謝謝。接下來本席就討論一下營養午餐的補助，還有財務方面的議題。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["林委員倩綺：其實我們現在營養午餐的政策已經有狀況的就是經費補助的不穩定性，根據教育部的報告……"],["張廖次長萬堅：目前很穩定。"],["林委員倩綺：您覺得很穩定？"],["張廖次長萬堅：財劃法之後可能……"],["林委員倩綺：我想很重要的一個問題就是中央跟地方，本席這邊要提到一個問題，目前您的補助大概在74億左右，如果我這邊的資料是對的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對、是。"],["林委員倩綺：當然未來你們要討論中央跟地方……"],["張廖次長萬堅：就是因應財劃法。"],["林委員倩綺：我這邊要先提出一個問題、很重要的事，全臺22個縣市有10個縣市提供免費營養午餐，其他縣市要收費，許多偏鄉地區經費就已經不足了，只能提供冷便當或者是低價的團膳，這樣的供餐品質對於偏鄉的學童其實有一些不太公平，早上在你們的討論內容裡面……"],["張廖次長萬堅：現在偏鄉補助……"],["林委員倩綺：我一直聽到北一女、建中等等，請次長可以稍微再關注一下偏鄉的狀況，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：目前偏鄉的中央廚房歷屆以來補助六十多億，現在每年補助包括交通費、包括運作費用已經21億。"],["林委員倩綺：您有講到目前補助的經費嘛。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對、對、對。"],["林委員倩綺：所以我們有沒有考慮提供最低營養午餐的經費，讓學童的健康及安全有一些保障，包含偏鄉？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，我們今天其實一直在談，就是說我們都願意，可是這個經費在財劃法之後，中央、地方……"],["林委員倩綺：您一直提到財劃法，我們就目前這個狀況……"],["張廖次長萬堅：中央跟地方要一起負擔。"],["林委員倩綺：次長，我沒有跟你提財劃法的任何問題。"],["張廖次長萬堅：但我們受到財劃法的影響是事實，未來的經費分擔問題確實是事實，我覺得這個不能避而不談。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。那我們就談現在遭遇的問題，剛才本席聽到前面的委員有談到營養師，還有一個很重要的問題，本席這邊也要談到廚工，所以一個根本的問題就是人力的問題。監察院的相關報告其實也談到每位營養師要監督，您剛才也講到全國有500位公職營養師。"],["張廖次長萬堅：現在不止了。"],["林委員倩綺：但是每一位營養師要監督的是3,600份午餐。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們的法令規定……"],["林委員倩綺：每一位縣市的營養師要負擔8,000名學生，你覺得顧得好嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，你的數字可能會有點問題。"],["林委員倩綺：那你提供給我囉！"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我們剛才其實報告裡面……包括114年度，我們法定應該聘的是474。"],["林委員倩綺：好，法定嘛，你們都聘完了嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：實際是聘681，還有專案經理人100人，所以現在有781人，我們的部版修法裡面希望是550人，因為我們的班級人數不太一定，如果以550人為基準的話，大概會增加兩億七千多萬，我們在部的精神是支持的。"],["林委員倩綺：好，精神上支持嘛。"],["張廖次長萬堅：會增加263……"],["林委員倩綺：那我們就財劃法見了，好不好？本席這邊認為很重要的就是偏鄉，剛才一直講到偏鄉，我們不希望你們在處理未來的問題，本席今天都沒有跟你談到財劃法，你自己把本席帶進這個世界，所以本席不接受，我們在講基本的這個問題……"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，一年三千多億，教育預算不會受到影響嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：關於偏鄉，未來在考慮到各縣市的財政，希望教育部正視這個問題，我們不希望偏鄉或者是財力比較差的縣市在這個部分受到權益上的不公平。"],["張廖次長萬堅：那就中央、地方一起來努力囉。"],["林委員倩綺：好，那我們加油。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：最後是關於運動部，本席這邊跟你們提醒幾個問題。我們希望運動產業發展條例是這個會期很重要的一個優先法案，目前在大家所提的內容上都以租稅優惠為主，但是我相信府院我們都在討論如何推動產業化，所以我們除了調整租稅優惠，在產業發展的長期目標上，你們有沒有什麼作法？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，運動產業我們面臨一個最主要的問題，就是我們的消費人口、規律運動人口的確是不夠多，所以我們的產業才會停滯，因此我們目前按照總統這樣的一個政見──競技運動全民化，我們往這個方向提出提升民眾參與、擴大全民運動的基本盤。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，署長，在私下跟您的交流當中，其實您對於推動全民或者是用俱樂部或某一些……"],["張廖次長萬堅：時間的關係，我們會……"],["林委員倩綺：某一些跟這個內容相關的全民化，我想你有很認真的在做，但是本席這邊談到產業化，也希望在你這個方向上能夠有更大的一個作為。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["林委員倩綺：最後提醒兩點，運動競技的規範跟本席從一來就談到單項協會的問題，本席今天因為受限於時間，所以在這邊不多談，但是單項協會如何在我們全民體育跟產業化的過程當中能夠有很好的一個功能，這個是我們要處理的；另外，運動競技的證照制度還有資格考核的一致性、公平性，本席在這邊先做提醒，未來我會……"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我們會錄案，好不好？"],["林委員倩綺：OK，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員的質詢，官員請回座。","接著繼續進行質詢，請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159501","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159501","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb09bf27007a6b3b40c01b4bb3d6676f3fd8a3637366d388642fefbc25bed5bb6755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"10:51:56 - 11:05:48","影片長度":"00:13:52","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 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謝謝主席有請教育部次長有請次長好 次長好我想我們剛剛都看到了我希望能夠跟您確定一件事請問教育部"},{"start":29.668,"end":32.554,"text":"是提出問題的人還是解決問題的人解決問題的是嗎"},{"start":35.706,"end":60.408,"text":"所以我相信我們希望用這樣的精神來看待我們遇到的各種狀況這些問題可能會來自於現在的教育前線也可能來自於我們的學校也可能來自於這個各種各種的情況我們也希望教育部是以本著解決問題的心態我們來討論那首先跟你討論一件事就是最近的這個已經不只是問題了這已經造成恐慌了"},{"start":61.269,"end":72.291,"text":"那剛剛有非常多委員也都問了啦所以我想就是一個案件出現在網路上那可以說是被到處的流傳我相信教育部也非常困擾那我們有一些這個其他政黨的委員呢提出了很多的轉貼提出了很多的追加的這個詢問說這個事情很可怕這個東西會影響到我們的學生會影響到我們的教育"},{"start":90.755,"end":99.916,"text":"那我想剛剛這個部長有這個也說明了這個相關的獎學金留學預算應該教育部是沒有刪減的對嗎"},{"start":102.168,"end":128.948,"text":"目前是那也謝謝教育部有提供一個這樣的一個文書讓我們可以比較清楚明確的知道這個我們相關的教育部的獎學金的編列呢並無刪減也沒有凍結但是就像我們剛剛看到的我們說教育部應該是要來幫忙解決問題的不應該讓問題持續甚至擴散所以我想請教一下部長您剛剛我們有看到"},{"start":131.03,"end":158.672,"text":"這個我們的這個即時澄清還停留在好幾年前都沒有更新那現在這個應該澄清了剛剛可能時間不夠啦那這個案件是澄清的狀況是什麼能不能簡短的說明一下就像委員所拿到的這個書函我們將這個內容對你們有說有去了解這個案件嘛因為這個個案所指是什麼因為上個新聞我們從我們的預算科目是看到這個個案我是期待你們剛剛有說有去對個案進行了解"},{"start":159.512,"end":176.502,"text":"那這了解以後他到底是誰是哪一個縣市他是什麼樣的部會的預算經過刪減這到底存不存在這個人有沒有了解我們沒有辦法去查到這個啦因為新聞有出來媒體有出來那媒體查證是否屬實這個教育部如何等一下 部長 次長"},{"start":177.543,"end":200.519,"text":"有學生的權益疑似受損了市長不需要去了解一下嗎委員剛才你提的是說要叫我去查證嘛那我們查證的預算的部分確實沒有刪除也跟委員回覆了你預算沒有刪減謝謝你們說明啊有學生權益受損我就問您學生權益受損教育部有沒有責任去協助當然有責任"},{"start":200.899,"end":213.627,"text":"有沒有責任要去了解請問這個狀況他到底是誰 存不存在哪一個預算影響到他 有嗎我們當然有去了解但是這個部分就不是這個部分對 所以我希望他來說明嘛 對"},{"start":219.991,"end":245.308,"text":"跟委員說明我想這個情況我們也是看到新聞出來那我們有去了解這個新聞的源頭並沒有指明是教育部的獎學金我不是 對不起 這個我們都清楚了第一 這個事件存不存在第二 有沒有這個人第三 你們有沒有去詢問這個學生的權益是否真的受損因為其他的哪些原因"},{"start":246.309,"end":274.859,"text":"有沒有 有或沒有 不好意思我們的學生不會受到影響是因為我們的經費都已經是確定這名學生是沒有揭露任何訊息的只是依據新聞的報載教育部有沒有責任了解我問到現在你們現在就是把問題放在那裡嘛然後呢 我就說喔 跟我無關我們沒有刪減 凍結我當然很謝謝你們說明啊學生如果真的存在學生有權益受準了"},{"start":276.313,"end":298.635,"text":"這不是教育部的範圍嗎因為這個新聞所揭露的對象的背景真的太模糊您知道那個老師的名字有出現嗎對嘛 有沒有出現請後面的同仁說明 有沒有出現報告委員這名老師的後來後來他自己也有說明不是教育部的對 我 對不起我還是在說 請問"},{"start":300.797,"end":318.015,"text":"我們已經知道 謝謝再三的說明不是教育部的預算刪減動靜有學生的權益受損教育部要不要去了解 關心嘛這麼簡單的問題耶我想還是跟委員說明就像我們公費報考的人數不一定是學生"},{"start":319.355,"end":333.697,"text":"所以他有可能是在職中或者是其他的已經就業的其他部會或者是什麼各種各樣的所以只要不是學生他出國就學就跟我們的這個教育部完全沒有任何關係嗎確定嗎"},{"start":337.282,"end":337.843,"text":"他已經在網路上求救啦"},{"start":353.405,"end":356.988,"text":"沒有關係我覺得這種態度全國民眾都看到了我們的教育部設定了各種的可能性所以我們教育部不用理解我們的部分我們澄清了你還說他也許不是學生至少你聽到你同仁的說法嗎有沒有確認他是不是學生沒有被刪除的 沒有影響的"},{"start":374.6,"end":394.739,"text":"但是剛才這個提到的是說因為其他部會也有或許像外交部啦 國科會啦或者是其他部會是有的就跟你們無關這個不是跟我們無關就是說我們比較難那如果他是學生受到影響就跟你們有關嘛他就沒有去了解啊我們去了解他就說不是教育部的預算嘛那我們怎麼去了解"},{"start":395.475,"end":408.781,"text":"他如果是透過外交部拿到預算我覺得您這樣子在做解釋是完全國人是無法接受我剛剛已經問您了如果他是學生權益受到影響教育部要不要去理解"},{"start":410.595,"end":420.438,"text":"然後你現在又在跟我講說教育部預算沒有背三所以它跟我們無關沒有關係這個問題沒有關係沒關係你現在在講說這個神秘人物你們沒有責任了解沒關係我問次長一個非常明確的問題已經有三位立法委員在為這個題目在哭窮在喊窮那我想請問次長"},{"start":437.549,"end":454.76,"text":"這三位委員 何新淳委員 郭育琴委員 林俊憲委員他們都非常關心請問現在教育部說了不是你們的預算煽動請問這個問題答案應該非常明確的請問教育部有沒有主動對這三位委員進行說明我們如果委員要求我們會跟他說明"},{"start":464.238,"end":487.391,"text":"所以教育部的態度就是我們任由所有的問題漂流在整個社會上然後有委員以不實的這種暗示然後教育部就說如果有人叫我們去說明我們再說明請問我就問市長您覺得這樣態度是對的嗎委員我們尊重你的發言權但是我們教育部也不是留言"},{"start":488.812,"end":508.084,"text":"那個澄清中心你說任何人的一個訊息揭露有限欸 對不起 市長市長我們這裡看到的是三位立法委員都提出這個問題喔他們在網路上提出教育部沒有預算的煽動教育部沒有責任去說明解釋嗎有立法委員可能有這樣的誤會"},{"start":508.965,"end":522.622,"text":"不用說明解釋嗎我們已經就這部分解釋了嘛所以我說有沒有去向立法委員的辦公室說明解釋有沒有發文 有沒有通電話有或沒有 請次長回應沒有 目前沒有"},{"start":526.963,"end":551.979,"text":"我覺得這個我不用指示我們是尋答我想教育部該做什麼你們應該比我更清楚所以我想這個不用我們來說請各位官員同仁都非常清楚接下來我想這個謝謝次長我們還是要再次感謝教育部的同仁真的是告訴我們這就不是你們的山洞但是我跟次長"},{"start":553.407,"end":580.214,"text":"同步一下我覺得這樣的一個方式這些訊息在外面流傳我覺得對於教育部在處理公費或者相關留學獎學金的同仁情何以堪啊情何以堪啊外部有一大堆這樣的誤會結果我們的教育部是以一個非常被動的方式在澄清我替教育部的同仁報不平情何以堪"},{"start":581.65,"end":602.157,"text":"那我們再來看這個相關的這個營養午餐我們也都很明確的說出來剛剛也非常多委員來提供了資訊那監察委員的這個事情我想剛剛也都提過了那我只想問其實這裡面有提到的一些問題是關於這個食材登錄平台的缺失"},{"start":603.479,"end":633.053,"text":"那我想我們剛剛回到啦教育部希望是一個解決問題的人所以呢我們這裡也提供您一個解決問題的可能性啦其實有很多的這個食材都是重複登錄甚至是假登錄那現在已經有很多的科技拍張照就可以上傳哪些食材多少熱量什麼樣的營養可能可以來協助所以我想我們的這個教育部的相關食材登錄平台如果要改進要編列預算我們會支持有沒有機會來了解一下用科技的方式來優化它"},{"start":633.453,"end":660.599,"text":"我想委員的建議非常好我們會將委員的意見導入將來的合作計畫我們盡量來優化現在的AI時代更好的一個優化的登錄平台是 那我想營養不足的問題剛剛都討論過很多了那我想食安在校園裡面我們應該要重視之外現在竟然還跑出一個水安有大學有這個用水安全的問題說有某間大學的自來水存在本超標64倍"},{"start":662.879,"end":676.31,"text":"那我們有看到啦其實教育部說這個可能是環境部啊等等的問題我想請教次長這個有沒有去進行譬如說普查或者有沒有提出預先的一些措施去確認這個問題不會出現在其他學校"},{"start":680.655,"end":704.234,"text":"這部分我想委員如果關心我們會來了解因為我看到委員提到的是水管老舊的問題那事實上這幾年我所知道台水不斷在更新那更新之後牽管的問題現在都已經改成那個委員我知道我們都協助過現在都是那種不鏽鋼的是比較好的"},{"start":704.494,"end":718.35,"text":"那這幾年編列經費相當多那大學的部分我想它有在社區裡面或者它內部裡面如果有這方面的疑慮的話我們當然會一併來關心那我剛才看到的這個新聞應該是在十年前左右"},{"start":719.281,"end":737.1,"text":"不是 我們這個是提供給您的解決方案我不是來攻擊您的我們是說以前發生類似的問題其實相關部會是可以有因應措施我想請教次長一個問題次長難道要等到有學生在校園裡面水中毒了教育部才要來處理嗎"},{"start":737.981,"end":754.562,"text":"當然如果委員見我們一定會來關心這一點所以是不是評估一下如何來確認大學或者是校園的用水安全這個相關的做法可不可以提供一個報告好我們會跟大學團來聯絡來問他們這方面是不是已經有在關心有在處理"},{"start":755.314,"end":775.271,"text":"主席抱歉我最後一個時間非常短就是這個私立國中入取率偏低非常多家長在說那請教次長您覺得主要問題是什麼這個問題我想因為時間的關係希望次長可不可以有相關書面報告提出來那我在這裡要表達本席對這樣的狀況我不預設立場但是"},{"start":780.876,"end":800.208,"text":"我們認為公立學校裡面有非常優秀非常認真的老師跟學生這種訊息在外面流傳如果教育部不去很清楚的知道原因的話對於這些人來說是非常不公平的對於辦學的形象對教育部來講也不是很好所以請教育部長針對這個問題做一個報告讓社會大眾了解"},{"start":802.97,"end":826.486,"text":"目前的這個中學的公私立委這個狀況所面臨的問題原因到底是什麼是不是可以提出好我想我請那個署長來謝謝文的關心我們會跟各主管機關包含台北市各縣市還包含本署的各有關私校一起來努力謝謝文提醒謝謝那請次長研議看怎麼樣來讓公立的學校我們提升競爭力重現整個社會的信心謝謝好謝謝趙偉的關心謝謝好謝謝葛盧軍委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":461,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（10時52分）謝謝主席，有請教育部次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：召委好。"],["葛委員如鈞：次長好。我們剛剛都看到了，我希望能夠跟您確定一件事，請問教育部是提出問題的人，還是解決問題的人？"],["張廖次長萬堅：解決問題的人。"],["葛委員如鈞：是嘛！所以我希望你們能用這樣的精神來看待你們遇到的各種狀況，這些問題可能來自於現在的教育前線，也可能來自於我們的學校，也可能來自於各種的情況，我們也希望教育部能夠本著解決問題的心態來討論。","首先跟你討論一件事，最近這個事件已經不只是問題，甚至造成恐慌了，剛剛有非常多委員也都問了，就是一個案件出現在網路上，可以說是被到處流傳，我相信教育部也非常困擾，有一些其他政黨的委員提出了很多的轉貼、提出了很多追加的詢問，說這個事情很可怕、這個東西會影響到我們的學生、會影響到我們的教育。剛剛部長也說明了，相關的獎學金、留學預算教育部是沒有刪減的，對嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：目前是。"],["葛委員如鈞：也謝謝教育部有提供這樣一個文書，讓我們可以比較清楚、明確的知道，相關教育部獎學金的編列並無刪減，也沒有凍結。但是就像我們剛剛看到的，我們說教育部應該是要來幫忙解決問題的，不應該讓問題持續，甚至擴散。所以我想請教部長，剛剛我們有看到，你們的即時澄清還停留在好幾年前，都沒有更新，現在這個應該澄清了，剛剛可能時間不夠啦！這個案件澄清的狀況是什麼，能不能簡短的說明一下？"],["張廖次長萬堅：就像委員所拿到的書函，我們會將這個內容……"],["葛委員如鈞：對，你們說有去了解這個案件嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為這個個案所指是什麼？因為上了新聞，但從我們的預算科目是沒有看到這個個案。"],["葛委員如鈞：您剛剛說有去對個案進行了解，了解以後他到底是誰、是哪一個縣市、是什麼樣的部會的預算經過刪減，甚至到底存不存在這個人？你們有沒有去了解？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們沒有辦法查到這個，因為新聞有出來、媒體有出來，至於媒體查證是否屬實，這個教育部如何……"],["葛委員如鈞：等一下，次長，有學生的權益疑似受損了，次長不需要去了解一下嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，剛才你提的是叫我去查證，那我們查證了預算部分確實沒有刪除，也跟委員回復了。"],["葛委員如鈞：不對、不對，你預算沒有刪減，我謝謝你們說明，但有學生權益受損，我就問您學生權益受損，教育部有沒有責任去協助？"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然有責任。"],["葛委員如鈞：有沒有責任要去了解？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，所以我們已經講過這部分沒有。"],["葛委員如鈞：請問這個狀況，他到底是誰，存不存在哪一個預算影響到他，有嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們當然有去了解，但是這個部分就不是……"],["葛委員如鈞：後面同仁搖頭啊，次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：你來說一下。"],["葛委員如鈞：對，所以我希望他來說明嘛。"],["藍代理副司長先茜：跟委員說明，我想這個情況我們也是看到新聞出來，我們有去了解這個新聞的源頭並沒有指名是教育部的獎學金。"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，這個我們都清楚了，第一，這個事件存不存在；第二，有沒有這個人；第三，你們有沒有去詢問這個學生的權益是否真的受損，因為其他的哪些原因，有沒有？有或沒有？不好意思。"],["藍代理副司長先茜：我們的學生不會受到影響，是因為我們的經費都已經是確定的，這名學生是沒有揭露任何訊息的，只是依據新聞的報載。"],["葛委員如鈞：教育部有沒有責任了解？我問到現在，你們現在就是把問題放在那裡嘛！然後就說跟我無關，我們沒有刪減、凍結，我當然很謝謝你們說明，學生如果真的存在，學生有權益受損了，這不是教育部的範圍嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為這個新聞所揭露的對象的背景真的太模糊，他到底是學生……"],["葛委員如鈞：你知道那個老師的名字有出現嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個我們……"],["葛委員如鈞：對嘛！有沒有出現？請後面的同仁說明，有沒有出現？你要我現在幫你google嗎？不用吧！"],["藍代理副司長先茜：報告委員，這名老師後來他自己也有說明不是教育部的獎學金。"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，我還是要再請問，我們已經知道……謝謝再三說明不是教育部的預算刪減、凍結，但有學生的權益受損，教育部要不要去了解關心嘛，這麼簡單的問題耶！"],["藍代理副司長先茜：我想還是跟委員說明，就像我們公費報考的人不一定是學生，他有可能是在職中或是其他已經就業的，所以可能是其他部會業管或是有各種各樣的情況。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以只要不是學生，他出國就學，就跟教育部完全沒有任何關係嗎？確定嗎？"],["藍代理副司長先茜：如果他出國之後在海外遇到任何情況是我們駐外單位在輔導，但是在他出國前的財源，如果他沒有向我們求救的話，我們的確……"],["葛委員如鈞：他已經在網路上求救了啊，沒有關係，我覺得這種態度全國民眾都看到了……"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，我知道你的問題，就是說……"],["葛委員如鈞：教育部設定了各種的可能性，說我們教育部不用理解。"],["張廖次長萬堅：不是，委員，我們的部分我們澄清了，教育部有關的……"],["葛委員如鈞：你還說他也許不是學生，次長，你聽到你們同仁的說法嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：教育部有關的留學計畫的預算是沒有被刪除，是沒有影響的。"],["葛委員如鈞：有沒有確認他是不是學生嘛？"],["張廖次長萬堅：但是剛才提到的是說因為其他部會也有，或許像外交部、國科會或是其他部會，是有的，也有……"],["葛委員如鈞：就跟你們無關？"],["張廖次長萬堅：不是跟我們無關，就是說我們比較難跨部會去了解。"],["葛委員如鈞：那如果他是學生受到影響，就跟你們有關嘛，你們就沒有去了解啊！"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們去了解，他就說不是教育部的預算，那我們怎麼去了解？他如果是透過外交部拿到預算，甚或僑委會的預算……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，次長，我覺得您這樣子在做解釋，國人是完全無法接受，我剛剛已經問您了，如果他是學生，權益受到影響，教育部要不要去理解？然後你現在又在跟我講說教育部預算沒有被刪，所以他跟你們無關。沒有關係，這個問題……"],["張廖次長萬堅：不是……"],["葛委員如鈞：沒有關係……"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為他揭露的……沒有名字我們怎麼去查？"],["葛委員如鈞：沒關係，好，你現在講說這個神秘人物你們沒有責任了解，沒關係，我問次長一個非常明確的問題，已經有三位立法委員在為這個題目在哭窮、在喊窮，我想請問次長，這三位委員，何欣純委員、郭昱晴委員、林俊憲委員，他們都非常關心，現在教育部說了不是你們的預算刪凍，這個問題的答案應該非常明確，請問教育部有沒有主動對這三位委員進行說明？"],["張廖次長萬堅：如果委員要求，我們會跟他說明。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以教育部的態度就是我們任由所有的問題漂流在整個社會上，有委員進行不實的這種暗示，然後教育部就說如果有人叫我們去說明，我們再說明。我就問次長，您覺得這樣的態度是對的嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，我們尊重你的發言權，但是我們教育部也不是流言澄清中心，你說任何人的一個訊息揭露有限，然後他的權益受損，他沒有向我們提出……"],["葛委員如鈞：對不起，次長，我們這裡看到的是三位立法委員都提出這個問題。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們已經……"],["葛委員如鈞：他們在網路上提出教育部沒有預算的刪凍，教育部沒有責任去說明、解釋嗎？有立法委員有這樣的誤會，不用說明、解釋嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們已經就這部分解釋了，教育部……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我說有沒有去向立法委員的辦公室說明、解釋，有沒有發文，有沒有通電話？有或沒有，請次長回應。"],["張廖次長萬堅：目前沒有，委員如果有跟我們說，我們都會回。"],["葛委員如鈞：我覺得這個我們不用指示，我們是詢答，我想教育部該做什麼，你們應該比我更清楚。所以我想這個不用我們來說，各位官員、同仁都非常清楚。接下來，我想謝謝次長，我們還是要再次感謝教育部的同仁，真的是告訴我們，這就不是你們的刪凍，但是我跟次長同步一下，我覺得這樣的一個方式，這些訊息在外面流傳，我覺得對於教育部在處理公費或者相關留學獎學金的同仁，情何以堪啊？外部有一大堆這樣的誤會，結果教育部是以一個非常被動的方式在澄清，我替教育部的同仁抱不平，情何以堪？","我們再來看這個營養午餐，我們也都很明確地說出來了，剛剛也有非常多委員提供了資訊，監察委員的這個事情我想剛剛也都提過了。我只想問，其實這裡面有提到的一些問題是關於食材登錄平臺的缺失。我想我們回到剛剛的，教育部希望做一個解決問題的人，所以我們這裡也提供你一個解決問題的可能性。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是，謝謝。"],["葛委員如鈞：其實有很多的食材都是重複登錄，甚至是假登錄，現在已經有很多的科技，拍張照就可以上傳，哪些食材、多少熱量、什麼樣的營養，可能可以來協助，所以我想教育部相關食材的登錄平臺如果要改進、要編列預算，我們會支持，有沒有機會來了解一下用科技的方式優化它？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員的建議非常好，我們會將委員的意見導入將來的合作計畫，在現在的這個AI時代我們也儘量來優化，做出更好的一個登錄平臺。"],["葛委員如鈞：是，營養不足的問題剛剛都討論過很多了，我想除了食安在校園裡面，我們應該要重視之外，現在竟然還跑出一個水安，有大學有用水安全的問題，說有某間大學的自來水存在苯超標64倍，我們有看到啦，其實教育部說這個可能是環境部等等的問題。我想請教次長，這個有沒有去進行，比如說普查或者有沒有提出預先的一些措施去確認這個問題不會出現在其他學校？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這部分委員如果關心，我們會來了解，因為我看到委員提到的是水管老舊的問題，事實上這幾年我知道台水不斷在更新，更新之後它鉛管的問題，現在都已經改成……我當過委員我知道，我們都去協助過，現在都是那種不鏽鋼的，是比較好的，這幾年編列的經費相當多。大學的部分，我想它有在社區裡面，或者它內部裡面，如果有這方面的疑慮的話，我們當然會一併來關心。我剛才看到的這個新聞，應該是在10年前左右。"],["葛委員如鈞：不是，我們這個是提供給您一個解決方案。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我知道。"],["葛委員如鈞：我不是來攻擊您的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我知道，謝謝委員的關心。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們是說以前發生類似的問題，其實相關部會是可以有因應措施。我想請教次長一個問題，次長難道要等到有學生在校園裡面水中毒了，教育部才要來處理嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然，如果……"],["葛委員如鈞：當然不是嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，如果委員建議，我們一定會來關心這個議題。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以是不是評估一下如何來確認大學或者是校園的用水安全？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我們會跟……"],["葛委員如鈞：這個相關的作法可不可以提供一個報告？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我們會跟大學端來聯絡，問他們這方面是不是已經有在關心、有在處理。"],["葛委員如鈞：主席抱歉，我最後問一個，非常短。就是私立國中錄取率偏低，非常多家長在說。請教次長，您覺得主要的問題是什麼？次長，這個問題因為時間的關係，可不可以有相關的書面報告提出來？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，沒問題。"],["葛委員如鈞：我在這裡要表達本席對這樣狀況的看法，我不預設立場，但是我們認為公立學校裡面有非常優秀、非常認真的老師跟學生，這種訊息在外面流傳，如果教育部不去很清楚地知道原因的話，對於這些人來說是非常不公平的，對於辦學的形象，對教育部來講也不是很好，所以請教育部長針對這個問題做一個報告，讓社會大眾了解目前公私立中學的狀況、所面臨的問題，原因到底是什麼，是不是可以提出？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我請署長。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員的關心，我們會跟各主管機關，包含臺北市、各縣市，還有包含本署的各有關私校一起來努力，謝謝委員提醒。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝，請次長研議，看怎麼樣來讓公立的學校提升競爭力，重建整個社會的信心，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝召委的關心。"],["主席：好，謝謝葛如鈞委員。"],["主席（葛委員如鈞）：接著繼續進行質詢，請林宜瑾召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra 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審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159500","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159500","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb06994b36ef95d9d1a01b4bb3d6676f3fd8a3637366d388642e93912b86ed9a1c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"10:39:47 - 10:51:40","影片長度":"00:11:53","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T10:39:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T10:51:40+08:00","duration":713,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.852218750000002,"end":11.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.024718750000002,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.24346875,"end":17.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.96909375,"end":22.879718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.26784375,"end":46.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.95846875,"end":32.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.87346875,"end":36.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.994093750000005,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.03471875,"end":66.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.88971875,"end":89.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.60346875,"end":139.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.04284375,"end":183.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.10346875000002,"end":190.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.52409375000002,"end":205.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.59846875000002,"end":203.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.48846875,"end":210.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.09534375,"end":210.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.76159375,"end":224.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.95784375000002,"end":230.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.77971875,"end":234.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.13346875000002,"end":372.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.94659375,"end":243.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.66034375000004,"end":320.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.83784375000005,"end":371.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.46221875000003,"end":395.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.95659375,"end":412.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.71909375,"end":403.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.32096875,"end":424.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.69471875000005,"end":455.72346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.24471875,"end":443.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.72346875000005,"end":455.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.77409375,"end":456.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":456.63471875000005,"end":457.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.25909375000003,"end":459.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.76096875,"end":468.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":468.14346875,"end":479.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.43034375,"end":468.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.76346875,"end":471.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":479.75346875,"end":492.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.96659375,"end":523.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":523.0378437500001,"end":571.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.0959687500001,"end":529.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.60221875,"end":529.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.61909375,"end":530.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.0578437500001,"end":530.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.68721875,"end":553.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.6397187499999,"end":561.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.04846875,"end":563.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":571.78971875,"end":572.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":573.2409687500001,"end":576.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":577.6284687500001,"end":581.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":581.59409375,"end":610.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":610.28159375,"end":617.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":618.75284375,"end":640.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.4540937500001,"end":642.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.49596875,"end":645.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":645.2465937500001,"end":646.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.02284375,"end":650.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":650.96721875,"end":653.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.02596875,"end":653.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":653.07659375,"end":653.1272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.1272187500001,"end":661.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":653.21159375,"end":654.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":654.78096875,"end":654.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":661.1597187500001,"end":663.03284375},{"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謝謝主席 有請次長請次長備詢"},{"start":17.267,"end":45.95,"text":"林委員好市長本席是基隆市選區的立法委員那其實我記得沒有錯的話在2020年我們奧運的羽球拿到我們奧運的這個就是羽毛球拿到金牌的時候那時候時任總統蔡英文說我們要有一個羽毛球的國手訓練中心在基隆市的基隆高中那現在後來2024年去年我們又得到了世界冠軍"},{"start":47.111,"end":66.688,"text":"那我就很好奇說有兩任總統來去背書的這個羽球國手訓練中心在基隆現在進度怎麼樣那我請詳細進度我請署長回答好不好可以嗎我也好那這關於此案呢我們去年一整年的努力那我們其實已經完成幕僚作業目前已經在行政院了"},{"start":67.148,"end":87.958,"text":"好那如果可以有任何進度的話我會再跟院長來討論因為這個案子對於我們基隆人還蠻重要的不只是因為說基隆是一個相對來講這個羽都之外而且另外一方面這個現在羚羊配都已經變絕配了嘛都已經拆夥了但是我們很尷尬的就是說我們要答應他們兩屆世界冠軍的這個羽球"},{"start":89.819,"end":108.356,"text":"國手蓄電中心到目前還沒有有著落那其實讓所有關心羽毛球甚至關心體育的人其實認為這件事其實是蠻可惜的啦所以我希望說市長在這邊也可能跟內閣在那邊討論一下好 謝謝再來是有關我們今天才講到的這個學校公餐法"},{"start":109.437,"end":123.452,"text":"本席來自基隆所以在基隆在去年在過去兩年之間發生的主要有三件這個有關食安方面的這些議題那食安方面議題呢裡面有兩件本席覺得很值得來給我們這個"},{"start":125.294,"end":138.83,"text":"在這個學校公參法草案裡面來納入我們考量因為第一個是在2023年2月14號的時候因為有番茄它是有裡面驗出來有這個未核准的農藥"},{"start":140.211,"end":165.217,"text":"所以後來被校方給退貨然後並報到教育處裡面去而且後來發現說這味這個農藥上這個番茄上面居然用的是假的QR code那這點其實其實是蠻重要的第二件事情還有另外一個案子也跟這個食物我們未來食材的來源我們要加緊追蹤有關也就是在去年的11月8號"},{"start":166.917,"end":187.75,"text":"居然有小朋友在吃學校午餐的梅干扣肉裡面不小心咬到兩公分的針頭那這件事情後來我們去查明之後才知道說這個食物食材的來源商他在裝包的時候在裝包進CAS的時候他並沒有經過金屬探測器"},{"start":193.291,"end":210.063,"text":"這兩個來源商嚴格講起來都不是基隆的廠商那變成是說教育處要直接去查也費了很大一番功夫我知道這個已經進入好像民法的這個狀態這個是一個食材管理的問題對那我也非常關心我們是不是請榮良署來解釋一下或者他的瞭解程度好 請他先說明"},{"start":212.209,"end":234.208,"text":"針對這個QR Code的這個部分我們針對這個實材真實性這個部分也都有到校園裡面對這個實材去抽檢所以那個部分是我們有去主動去查出來的後續也會針對這個供應端這個部分去做追蹤的處分"},{"start":235.202,"end":253.425,"text":"我為什麼會把這個議題拿出來呢因為這個食材其實不是在基隆市當地而是這個食材他們所合格的廠商其實遍佈全國而且廠商其實沒幾個因為要符合我們營養午餐的標準其實營養午餐標準是相當嚴格的"},{"start":254.406,"end":271.064,"text":"但是尷尬的是說再怎麼嚴格都還是會出現狀況而這又是我們剛剛小羅委員直接講說孩子的未來不能等孩子是國家的未來那我們總不希望說孩子未來吃到的食物導致他們身心受創"},{"start":272.606,"end":301.292,"text":"所以在這個前提之下我會認為說在這一次的這個學校公參法草案在擬定的時候如果有行政院的版本請務必把這個tracking也就是所謂追溯食物來源追溯食材來源這件事情要納進去變成是中央政府的主責而不是讓地方政府來承擔因為地方政府舉例基隆市我們只能查到基隆市的廠商如果是這兩件案子它的"},{"start":303.113,"end":315.304,"text":"這個食材供應商並不是來自基隆市而是來自台北市、新北市那基隆市政府要透過其他機制透過其他平台去查這些東西的時候就變得相對困難而這一點來講甚至這樣講"},{"start":318.587,"end":332.959,"text":"我們剛剛講的很明顯三章EQ但是三章EQ本來應該是在tomato是在番茄上面的結果卻是用在別的地方上面這樣三章EQ的管制是不是也有所謂的疏失呢所以這種種的方面來講"},{"start":334.921,"end":362.944,"text":"為了真的要保證我們食材的品質而且也要防止未來像剛剛這種老實講蠻可笑蠻可恨的事情發生而且我們也要追究責任老實講追究責任可能是最後面但是我們要防止未來這些事情發生甚至如果不合格的廠商他在環境上面還在各方面不行的時候我們必須在這之前在這次我們的學校公參法上面就直接修法把它列入中央的責任這樣子把這"},{"start":363.424,"end":391.574,"text":"把這個中央的法規放進去的時候所有整個業界才會跟著復合我們才會引起足夠的重視市長你認為是對的嗎委員我想你這個關係的角度非常好就是也證明了一個事情就是說其實我們本來就有三張EQ的制度那這個管理的問題執行的問題出了層面事實上我們即使納入法那個管理的部分也要落實那三張EQ就包括這個食品的檢驗的相關的制度我想龍娘署的這個代表"},{"start":391.874,"end":410.241,"text":"非常清楚你剛才提到的問題為什麼會發生他是不是要來簡單說我會認為未來這主責單位不應該是地方教育署或教育局應該是所謂中央單位來去做主責因為這方面來講如果中央願意定這麼嚴格的標準那中央就要負起相應對的責任才是"},{"start":412.532,"end":428.611,"text":"跟委員報告張Q的使用規範如果他違規使用我們查到的話就針對他違規的事項會去做處理我認為未來整個檢查食材的SOP必須很清楚"},{"start":429.071,"end":455.358,"text":"因為在地方的代理商或經銷商他不會去看到如果有CIS的認證之後然後他還去把它打開來拆開來重新再看說裡面有多少的裡面有多少東西再重新做檢驗這樣時間來講也是來不及的但是如果說我們在前頭SOP就做好 主則就做好那相對來講會讓中間在地方的經銷商或代理商能夠比較輕鬆的去處理這些食材"},{"start":456.818,"end":473.182,"text":"對我想這個部分食材安全分工上面很清楚在源頭部分農業部會去針對章Q的使用做管理我想這個法因為我們今天討論是學校公差案這個要很明確主責跟SOP必須放在裡面這樣未來我們全國會有一致性的標準"},{"start":479.844,"end":493.497,"text":"今天發生在基隆這兩個案子未來有可能在我們不注意的時候發生在全國的小學裡面那這一點來講對於我們民意代表來說我覺得這個是我們必須強烈要求的案子"},{"start":493.769,"end":519.56,"text":"我想台灣的張Q其實非常嚴謹就是說他也會有抽查例行的抽查我所知道的抽查也會有罰那這個案件他主動發生了他們也會主動去罰就是說他的這個罰者是都有的而且都有名單張Q可以溯源他就是說可以知道是哪一家犯的就比以前好就是說他的張Q制度不管是CS也好或者是有機也好或者是可溯源的農產品也好這三張其實都是會透過那個QR code那個Q能夠連結"},{"start":521.881,"end":551.013,"text":"所以他們除了主動清查我必須要說市長這個問題是未來我希望說直接列入法裡面不是說未來我們解釋我們發生什麼事情因為已經有冒用過了就表示有更多冒用過以常理來講今天有一個冒用的例子就表示市面上有更多冒用的例子正在流傳而我們只是剛好沒有查到而已所以這件事我覺得我認為說主責SOP查清這三個事情必須放在法規放在這個法裡面既然我們要訂學校公參法"},{"start":551.713,"end":576.648,"text":"那我們就把這個放進房屋現在都有了現在這三個制度都有那可能要嚴格執行那SOP也要嚴格執行主責單位不應該是地方不應該是地方證一起來跨部會合作最後一個小小的問題其實我還有一個蠻長的不過還有一個小小的問題請問一下國光獎章或獎金的分發辦法第17條已經多久沒有修了"},{"start":577.679,"end":583.901,"text":"你是說獎金的對 國光獎金我為什麼這樣問呢我們如果說要對於運動產業要對於運動產業來做推廣那運動產業的職業運動員最後面能夠代表國家能夠在跟國際之間競爭應該是最高的榮耀"},{"start":596.866,"end":617.361,"text":"很多人說過中華隊或是國家代表隊的球衣是很重的甚至有人寧願不幫美國打19歲以下的國家代表隊會願意回來幫我們台灣打但是這個前提的話最近我就問一個職業運動員說那他們有什麼需要我幫忙講的他說最小的一個"},{"start":618.82,"end":641.537,"text":"目前國光獎金是用點數來去算的不到50點不准發放那如果剛好有一些國手是在不到50點是在一個點數值在30點左右他整個國手生涯就結束的話那想請問他們這個獎金1.1萬塊的國光獎金是否還能拿得到呢我請那個署長來說"},{"start":642.506,"end":657.86,"text":"報告委員那個是早期的制度了現在已經不是這樣子了那現在是怎麼樣呢現在就是針對他的運動成就我們直接就是發放這個獎金所以就是如果他是有能夠如果他是實質上我想您的那個那位陳青仁的個案他應該是很多年前好"},{"start":658.42,"end":665.943,"text":"在這個案子它整個法的更新之前委員如果有個案可以直接來因為國手來講的話如果我們正要推廣運動產業我那時候在國事論壇也特地幫我們的運動員發聲幫退休的運動員發聲那如果我們要給他們一個標杆幫國家來去出戰各個競賽的運動員應該更受到重視"},{"start":679.75,"end":693.485,"text":"一句話嘛錢給的不夠心受委屈了那我們台灣的運動市場並沒有像美國日本來的大但是我們基本的尊重有時候很悲哀的現金也是一種基本的尊重如果連這點都不給的話"},{"start":694.206,"end":711.579,"text":"甚至在本來在我記得聽說有保險都出問題的時候其實這樣對於整個運動的風氣就很不好那我希望說我們今天張廖次長是負責運動的那我希望您跟國體署可以在未來在運動產業的發展上面注意這一點好 以上謝謝委員的關心我們會努力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":408,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（10時40分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：請次長備詢。"],["張廖次長萬堅：林委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：次長，本席是基隆市選區的立法委員，我記的沒有錯的話，在2020年我們的羽毛球在奧運拿到金牌的時候，那個時候時任總統的蔡英文說我們要有一個羽毛球的國手訓練中心在基隆市的基隆高中。後來在去年（2024年）我們又得到了世界冠軍。那我就很好奇，有兩任總統背書的這個羽球國手訓練中心在基隆，現在進度怎麼樣？"],["張廖次長萬堅：詳細進度我請署長回答好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：委員好。關於此案，經過去年一整年的努力，我們已經完成幕僚作業，目前已經在行政院了。"],["林委員沛祥：如果可以有任何進度的話，我會再跟院長來討論，因為這個案子對於我們基隆人還蠻重要的，不只是因為基隆相對來講是雨都，而且另外一方面，現在麟洋配都已經變絕配了，都已經拆夥了，但是很尷尬的，我們答應他們兩屆世界冠軍的這個羽球國手訓練中心到目前還沒有著落，其實讓所有關心羽毛球，甚至是關心體育的人認為這件事是蠻可惜的，所以我希望次長也能跟內閣那邊討論一下。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝。"],["林委員沛祥：再來是有關我們今天講到的學校供餐法，本席來自基隆，基隆在過去兩年之間主要發生3件有關食安方面的議題，裡面有2件本席覺得很值得納入學校供餐法草案裡面來考量，第一個是在2023年2月14號，因為有番茄被驗出來有未核准的農藥，所以後來被校方退貨，並報到教育處去，而且後來發現這個番茄上面居然用的是假的QR Code，這點其實是蠻重要的。還有另外一個案子也跟我們未來必須要加緊追蹤食材的來源有關，也就是在去年的11月8號，居然有小朋友在學校午餐的梅干扣肉裡面不小心咬到2公分的針頭，這件事情後來我們去查明之後才知道，這個是食材的來源商在裝包的時候並沒有經過金屬探測器。這2個來源商嚴格講起來都不是基隆的廠商，變成教育處要直接去查也費了很大一番功夫，我知道這個好像已經進入民法的狀態。"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個是一個食材管理的問題，我也非常關心，我們是不是請農糧署來解釋一下他們了解的部分？"],["林委員沛祥：好，請他先說明。"],["黃副署長昭興：委員好。針對這個QR Code的部分，我們在食材真實性的部分也都有到校園裡面對食材進行抽檢，那個部分是我們主動去查出來的，後續也會針對這個供應端去做追蹤的處分。"],["林委員沛祥：我為什麼會把這個議題拿出來？因為這個食材其實不是在基隆市當地，而是這個食材……"],["張廖次長萬堅：管理的問題。"],["林委員沛祥：他們合格的廠商遍布全國，而且廠商其實沒幾個，因為要符合我們營養午餐的標準，其實營養午餐的標準是相當嚴格的，但是尷尬的是，再怎麼嚴格都還是會出現狀況，而這又是剛剛小羅委員直接講的，孩子的未來不能等、孩子是國家的未來。我們總不希望孩子未來吃到的食物導致他們身心受創，所以在這個前提之下，我會認為在這一次學校供餐法草案擬訂的時候，如果有行政院的版本，請務必把追溯食物來源、追溯食材來源這件事情納進去，變成是由中央政府主責，而不是讓地方政府來承擔。因為如果是地方政府負責，舉例來說，基隆市我們只能查到基隆市的廠商，如果這2件案子的食材供應商並不是來自基隆市，而是來自臺北市、新北市，當基隆市政府要透過其他機制、透過其他平臺去查這些東西的時候，就變得相對困難。甚至這樣講，我們剛剛講的很明顯……"],["張廖次長萬堅：三章一Q。"],["林委員沛祥：三章一Q本來應該是在番茄上面，結果卻是用在別的地方上面，這樣三章一Q的管制是不是也有所謂的疏失呢？所以從種種方面來講，為了要真正保證我們的食材品質，也要防止未來像剛剛這種老實講滿可笑、滿可恨的事情發生，而且我們也要追究責任，老實講，追究責任可能是最後面，但是我們要防止未來這些事情發生，甚至如果不合格的廠商，他在環境上面或是各方面不行的時候，我們必須在這之前，在這次的學校供餐法上面就直接修法把它列入中央的責任，當我們把中央的法規放進去之後，整個業界才會跟著附和，才會引起足夠的重視。次長，你認為是對的嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，我想你這個關切的角度非常好，也證明了一個事情，其實我們本來就有三章一Q的制度，當管理的層面、執行的層面出了問題，即使我們納入法，管理的部分也要落實。三章一Q就包括食品檢驗的相關制度，我想農糧署的代表非常清楚，你剛才提到的問題為什麼會發生，是不是讓他來簡單說明一下？"],["林委員沛祥：我會認為未來主責單位不應該是地方的教育處或教育局，應該是所謂中央單位來主責……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，那是食品安全……"],["林委員沛祥：因為這方面來講，如果中央要訂這麼嚴格的標準，中央就要負起相對應的責任才是。"],["黃副署長昭興：跟委員報告，我們章Q本來就有章Q的使用規範，如果被我們查到他違規使用的話，會針對他違規的事項去做處分。"],["林委員沛祥：我認為未來整個檢查食材的SOP必須很清楚，因為地方的代理商或經銷商看到有CAS的認證之後，他不會還把它打開來、拆開來，重新再看裡面有多少東西要重新做檢驗，就時間來講是來不及的。但是如果在前頭SOP就做好、主責就做好，相對來講，會讓中間在地方的經銷商或代理商能夠比較輕鬆的去處理這些食材。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我想食材安全的部分……"],["黃副署長昭興：這個分工上面很清楚，在源頭部分，農業部會去針對章Q的使用做管理……"],["林委員沛祥：我想這個法，因為我們今天討論的是學校供餐法……"],["黃副署長昭興：這個案子是有裁處的。"],["林委員沛祥：這個主責跟SOP必須很明確的放在裡面，這樣未來全國才會有一致性的標準。今天發生在基隆的這兩個案子，未來有可能在我們不注意的時候發生在全國的小學裡面，這一點來講，對於我們民意代表來說，我覺得這個是我們必須強烈要求的案子。"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實臺灣的章Q非常嚴謹，它也會有例行的抽查，我所知道抽查也有罰。而這個案件發生了，他們也會主動去罰，就是說他的罰則是都有的，也都有名單，而且章Q可以溯源，這樣他就可以知道是哪一家犯的，是比以前好。就是說他的章Q制度，不管是CAS也好，或者是有機也好，或者是可溯源的農產品也好，這三章其實都會透過QR Code的Q來連結，所以他們除了主動清查……"],["林委員沛祥：次長，我必須要說，我希望這個問題未來能直接列入法裡面，而不是未來我們解釋如果發生什麼事情……"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["林委員沛祥：因為已經有冒用過，就表示有更多冒用過的，以常理來講，今天有一個冒用的例子，就表示市面上有更多冒用的例子在流竄，只是我們剛好沒有查到而已。所以對於這件事，我認為主責、SOP、查清這三個事情必須放在法規、放在這個法裡面，既然我們要訂學校供餐法，我們就把這個放進法裡面，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實現在都有了，現在這三個制度都有了。"],["林委員沛祥：那可能要嚴格執行，SOP也要嚴格執行，主責單位不應該是地方政府。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我們會請農糧署一起來跨部會合作。"],["林委員沛祥：最後一個小小的問題，國光體育獎章及獎助學金頒發辦法第十七條已經多久沒有修了？我為什麼這樣問呢？我們如果要推廣運動產業，運動產業的職業運動員最後能夠代表國家在國際之間競爭應該是最高的榮耀，很多人跟我說過，中華隊或是國家代表隊的球衣是很重的，甚至有人寧願不幫美國打19歲以下的國家代表隊，而願意回來幫我們臺灣打。但是這個前提的話，最近我就剛好問一個職業運動員說，他們有什麼需要我們幫忙講的？他說最小的一個，目前國光獎金是用點數來算的，不到50點不准發放，如果剛好有些國手不到50點，可能只在30點左右他的國手生涯就結束的話，請問這個1點1萬元的國光獎金是否還拿得到呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我請署長來說明。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，那個是早期的制度了，現在已經不是這樣子。"],["林委員沛祥：現在是怎麼樣？"],["鄭署長世忠：現在就是針對他的運動成就直接發放獎金。"],["林委員沛祥：所以如果他是實質上……"],["鄭署長世忠：我想那位陳情人的個案應該是很多年前，在整個法更新之前的案子……"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員如果有個案，可以直接來……"],["鄭署長世忠：是不是我們到委員辦公室來……"],["林委員沛祥：因為以國手來講，如果我們真的要推廣運動產業，我那時候在國是論壇也特地幫我們退休的運動員來發聲……"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員。"],["林委員沛祥：如果我們要給他們一個標竿，幫國家去出戰，各個競賽的運動員應該更受到重視。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是，謝謝。"],["林委員沛祥：一句話嘛！錢給得不夠，心受委屈了，臺灣的運動市場並沒有像美國、日本那麼大，但是一個基本的尊重，有時候很悲哀的，現金也是一種基本的尊重，如果連這點都不給的話，甚至我聽說連保險都出問題的時候，其實這對於整個運動的風氣就很不好。今天來的張廖次長是負責運動的，我希望您跟國體署未來在運動產業的發展上面可以注意這一點。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝委員的關心，我們會努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林沛祥委員的質詢，官員請回座。"],["主席（林委員沛祥代）：現在有請葛如鈞委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159498","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159498","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb029b26ad55d80d90d01b4bb3d6676f3fd8a3637366d388642f6224e177d86ebea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"13:51:03 - 14:00:12","影片長度":"00:09:09","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T13:51:03+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T14:00:12+08:00","duration":549,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.77659375,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.25221875,"end":16.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.86346875,"end":20.719718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.31909375,"end":19.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.875968750000002,"end":20.247218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.31034375,"end":91.40909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.66221875000001,"end":131.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.26346875000002,"end":153.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.83409375000002,"end":153.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.64409375,"end":175.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.31159375000001,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.03721875000002,"end":176.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.62784375,"end":176.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.67846875,"end":188.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.81159375000001,"end":200.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.21909375,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.49221875,"end":207.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.02346875,"end":225.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.66659375,"end":225.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.71721875,"end":228.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.21471875,"end":237.96846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.96846875000003,"end":250.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.65159375000002,"end":240.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.76534375000003,"end":241.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.86596875,"end":246.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.10159375,"end":250.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.65846875000003,"end":273.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.20971875000004,"end":260.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.38596875,"end":266.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.41971875,"end":266.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.37221875,"end":292.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.96409375,"end":316.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.78659375,"end":295.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.82409375000003,"end":298.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.82784375,"end":301.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.89846875,"end":307.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.98284375000003,"end":308.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.48034375000003,"end":310.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.90596875,"end":314.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.40784375000004,"end":315.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.55534375,"end":318.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.60971875,"end":375.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.73784375,"end":337.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.93596875000003,"end":338.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.66846875000005,"end":397.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.33596875,"end":397.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.80846875000003,"end":405.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.12784375,"end":406.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.78596875000005,"end":407.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.89971875000003,"end":411.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.26221875000005,"end":411.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.79784375,"end":411.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.91596875000005,"end":414.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.54846875000004,"end":433.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.41909375,"end":436.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.33409375,"end":440.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.66284375000004,"end":438.81471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.65409375,"end":442.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.13471875000005,"end":445.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.83471875000004,"end":447.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.35346875000005,"end":448.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.72034375000004,"end":452.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.39034375000006,"end":474.032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請次長 大家辛苦了請次長被質詢 辛苦了 謝謝我們今天在談這個營養午餐 結果大家午餐都還沒有吃喔委員好 不吃這個 我在去年 我們有辦過共聽會"},{"start":25.059,"end":40.656,"text":"關於這個營養午餐有辦過公聽會那其實在去年底的時候的總諮詢我也問過卓院長就是說本席當然是希望能夠制定這個學校午餐的專法當然有幾個點出來就是說第一個我們這個要強化兒少的"},{"start":41.978,"end":60.295,"text":"這個飲食的營養的教育那補足校園午餐的專業能力那第二個呢確保這個學校的營養午餐的經費能夠透明公開那第三個呢這個是減少就是鼓勵學校自設廚房啦就是減少食安的風險那第四個呢就是讓營養午餐成為這個教育的一環啦"},{"start":60.996,"end":78.721,"text":"那當時候我是有這個想法啦那我在總諮詢的時候也問這個卓院長就是當時候的這個黑牌大廚啊這個韓國內營級這裡面有一位進入這個前十名是一個學餐的廚師叫做李美英"},{"start":79.641,"end":86.184,"text":"然後呢 這個為什麼韓國的這個學生廚師能夠進入這一個黑白大廚的前十名那發現說 這個韓國因為他們有這一個學校給食法"},{"start":92.316,"end":103.326,"text":"每個學校他們的廚房都是用公辦公營的模式所以每個學童每餐的預算高達新台幣是200塊所以他們預算夠而且是公辦公營能夠讓廚師廚工能夠做出非常美味讓學生能夠吃的"},{"start":113.356,"end":130.301,"text":"很好 也很有營養的這個營養午餐其實那時候我還問這個卓院長說那是不是這個能夠去學校吃一下營養午餐看一下說現在的這個營養午餐跟他所認為的營養午餐有沒有這個差別"},{"start":132.992,"end":152.183,"text":"談到這邊我主要還是要問這個次長因為這個財劃法這個覆議案沒有過那在你們的報告裡面有提到我認為這還是主要的原因就是說財劃法沒有通過所以你們每年要補助這個經濟弱勢學生的這個74億總共加起來74億就是"},{"start":157.487,"end":177.728,"text":"補助經濟優勢學生午餐21億然後學校午餐採用國產可溯源的食材補助38億然後推動中央這個偏鄉學校中央廚房計畫15億這74億這74億是我們是全額補助地方嗎是我們都是全額補助地方這74億就是中央負擔的部分全部都是中央負擔好"},{"start":179.47,"end":196.571,"text":"現在因為負議案沒有過 中央的整個預算大概有3700多億要下放到地方我們先不管國防預算 光是教育部的預算大概有28%左右會被釋出所以接下來這74億的補助就沒有辦法"},{"start":198.473,"end":224.932,"text":"就是要由地方自己來處理就對了我們是認為如果將來要去談這個權利義務的話那這一部分應該我參與地方制度法裡面規定是地方權限所以這一部分是不是能夠移交由地方來負擔就是我們一直在談這個錢跟權要把它談清楚那如果說地方現在因為財化法釋出了這麼多的財源那所以呢在這部分的話就是中央希望說未來就是由地方政府自己來做處理就對了"},{"start":225.712,"end":240.4,"text":"我們目前是這樣子的一個方向然後還有說這個26億是這個有關這個營養師午餐的這個殖密還有廚房設備等等這總共加起來26億是如果我們這一次的專法在修的話最少"},{"start":241.861,"end":265.552,"text":"最少 譬如說營養師我們按照這個布板的五百五十人一個的話那我們必須要再增加兩百六十三那大概兩億七千多萬那這部分其實都用在國中小啦所以我們是希望說是不是就由財化法之後他的財源增加了就是由地方來吸收那這個部分修法還沒修嘛那你修法之後增加地方的負擔是不是應該跟地方政府跟他協商好"},{"start":266.452,"end":294.953,"text":"對 那有些地方財化法受益比較多有些地方他覺得他沒有受益那這個要如何協調也是一個技術啦好 那所以我聽很多委員對次長這個質詢還有你的回覆就是說我們教育部希望這個未來如果有一個營養午餐專法的話精神你們都是支持我們是支持的但是在預算這方面在經費這方面能夠再跟地方政府對 中央地方一起來談啦就是說這個"},{"start":296.214,"end":318.141,"text":"這個權利義務真的要談清楚我們來修法那個將來才有辦法落實或者那個教育金會這樣處在不穩定的狀況下那裁判法到底會影響教育部多少預算大家都還在談所以是談好我們沒有辦法輕易在修法過程裡面承諾要跟過去一樣百分之百補助地方所以是談好之後沒有能力啦教育部會有個版本出來嗎如果能夠談成的話如果能夠談成的話"},{"start":324.263,"end":340.091,"text":"那這個是有關營養午餐這部分那我再用一點點時間我談一下昨天這一個在台中發生一個事情就是一個台中的一個小學的一個棒球教練那他被查出來就是說他被檢方都起訴了嘛"},{"start":340.771,"end":359.642,"text":"他這個罪行是非常的重大七年的期間對41名學童下手犯案的次數高達90次然後檢察官說要請法院從重量刑那這個已經是最後的結果我在想說過程前面的這個原因就是說這其實這個松信教練"},{"start":360.362,"end":374.634,"text":"他已經有這一個前科了 他也被判緩刑了但是呢 他持良民證進入學校擔任教練我請問一下 這個我們的機制出了問題還是台中市政府教育局這個學校出了問題"},{"start":375.697,"end":396.713,"text":"報告委員,我想這個機制我們前一陣子有去做,透過國大教育署跟地方有做一個補強,就是說他們學校人員會輪動,所以承辦人員常常忘記要去做不適任教室的查詢,那我們現在要求他們每個學校在聘外聘教練的時候都要去做合約的簽訂,教練本身要願意給個資,然後學校這邊也提醒這個承辦人員一定要去做不適任教室的查詢,把這個洞補起來。"},{"start":397.961,"end":425.818,"text":"所以是現在是發生是這個學校他們沒有去做查詢那如果他們有查詢的話是查得到嗎是查得到不一定不一定喔我們這個這個個案是查得到的吧這個個案是查得到的那什麼情況下會查不到報告委員那個就是在應該說過去啦社團的部分在不是學校的編制內或者是計劃前教練的部分的確有這樣的漏洞那目前已經開始跟補起來了"},{"start":426.098,"end":449.232,"text":"有補起來了嗎我們跟古道署這邊目前正在做這個討論已經署長這邊已經跟我做一個討論所以我這樣聽是還沒有補起來就對了就是說他是屬於因為學校都有課後的社團課後社團這一部分的因為他不一定是老師可是他們進來學校教課那所以他有可能他沒有在這一個記錄裡面通報的這個記錄裡面就對了"},{"start":454.591,"end":469.214,"text":"對如果說你要進入校園大概都會去取得良民證嘛那良民證裡面就會有他有沒有前科這是最基本的這有確定嗎對對對他就會去查那查的話當然我們就把它放在那個系統裡面去查如果是確定沒有的話那就沒有如果有的話"},{"start":469.955,"end":487.601,"text":"那沒有被查出來那當然就是這個過程就會有問題但是剛剛這個署長他所提到的說有關於有關於這部分就是說他是課後社團的這些老師咧要不要我看這個國教署長跟這個體育署長在這個種類很多啦要不要一個比較完整性的一個回答"},{"start":489.56,"end":513.027,"text":"性平的案件只要進入校園教任何的外聘教練不管是屬於什麼性質的他只要犯到類似性平的案件都會進入?都會有嗎?確定嗎?這要確定喔?那我在講就是說現在還是說那個學校的一個棒球隊還有另外一個教練他也涉及到這個性平的案件"},{"start":513.627,"end":522.781,"text":"但是呢他說這個沒有達到不得聘任外聘教練的必要程度那所以呢這是去年十二月底我不確定說現在的資料怎麼樣後來上風嘛那後來咧後來把它上風"},{"start":527.349,"end":546.708,"text":"後來他還有在其他學校繼續擔任教練嗎我想你關心的是我們會把這個資料再給委員是 這個時間關係好不好 那我想請部外官員用書面方式來回覆這不能讓這個已經有這個這個性平安健的這一個教練再繼續再擔任教練的啊這個洞你們要補起來啊我們會跟地方政府好好研商好 謝謝好 謝謝市長 謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1427,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（13時51分）謝謝主席，請次長，大家也辛苦了。"],["主席：請次長備詢，辛苦了，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：我們今天在談營養午餐，結果大家午餐都還沒有吃。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：關於營養午餐，去年我們有辦過公聽會，其實在去年底的總質詢我也問過卓院長，本席當然是希望能夠制定學校午餐的專法，有幾個重點：第一、我們要強化兒少的飲食營養教育，補足校園午餐的專業能力；第二、確保學校營養午餐的經費能夠透明公開；第三、鼓勵學校自設廚房，就是減少食安的風險；第四、讓營養午餐成為教育的一環。當時我是有這個想法，那我在總質詢的時候也問卓院長，韓國的影集「黑白大廚」裡面有一位進入前10名的是學餐的廚師，叫做李美英，為什麼韓國的學餐廚師能夠進入「黑白大廚」的前10名？發現因為韓國他們有學校給食法，每個學校的廚房都是用公辦公營的模式，所以每個學童每餐的預算高達新臺幣200塊，所以他們預算夠，而且是公辦公營，能夠讓廚師、廚工做出非常美味又讓學生吃得好、也很有營養的營養午餐。其實那時候我還問卓院長說，是不是能夠去學校吃一下營養午餐，看一下現在的營養午餐跟他所認為的營養午餐有沒有差別。","談到這邊我主要還是要問次長，因為財劃法覆議案沒有過，在你們的報告裡面有提到，我認為這還是主要的原因，就是財劃法覆議案沒有通過，所以你們每年要補助經濟弱勢學生的午餐……"],["張廖次長萬堅：74億。"],["李委員坤城：總共加起來74億，補助經濟弱勢學生午餐21億，補助學校午餐採用國產可溯源食材38億，推動偏鄉學校中央廚房計畫15億，共74億，請問這74億是全額補助地方嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是，這74億就是中央負擔的部分。"],["李委員坤城：全部都是中央負擔，好，那現在因為財劃法覆議案沒有過，中央整個預算大概有三千七百多億要下放到地方，我們先不管國防預算，光是教育部的預算大概有28%左右會被釋出，所以接下來這74億的補助就是要由地方自己來處理就對了？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們是認為如果將來要去談這個權利義務的話，根據地方制度法規定，營養午餐屬地方權限，所以這部分是不是能夠移交由地方來負擔？"],["李委員坤城：我們一直在談的錢跟權要把它談清楚，如果地方現在因為財劃法釋出了這麼多的財源，所以在這部分中央希望未來由地方政府自己來處理就對了？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們目前是這樣子的一個方向。"],["李委員坤城：還有26億是營養師、午餐執秘還有廚房設備等等，這總共加起來有……"],["張廖次長萬堅：26億是如果我們這一次修專法的話，最少需要26億，譬如營養師，我們按照部版550人一個的話，那我們必須要再增加263位，大概兩億七千多萬，這部分其實都用在國中小，所以我們希望財劃法之後地方的財源增加了，是不是就由地方來吸收？這個部分還沒修，修法之後增加地方的負擔，是不是應該跟地方政府協商好？有些地方財劃法受益比較多，有些地方覺得沒有受益，這個要如何協調也是一個技術啦。"],["李委員坤城：好，所以我聽很多委員對次長的質詢還有你的回復，就是教育部希望未來如果有一個營養午餐專法的話，精神你們都是支持。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們是支持。"],["李委員坤城：但是在預算這方面、在經費這方面能夠再跟地方政府……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，中央、地方一起來談，就是這個權利義務真的要談清楚，我們來修法，將來才有辦法落實，否則教育經費處在不穩定的狀況下，那財劃法到底會影響教育部多少預算，大家都還在盤點，我們沒有辦法輕易在修法過程裡面承諾要跟過去一樣百分之百補助地方。"],["李委員坤城：所以是談好之後……"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有能力啦。"],["李委員坤城：教育部會有一個版本出來嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：如果能夠談成的話。"],["李委員坤城：這是有關營養午餐的部分。","那我再用一點點時間談一下昨天在臺中發生的一件事情，就是臺中一個小學的棒球教練被查出來，他都被檢方起訴了，他的罪行非常重大，在7年期間對41名學童下手，犯案次數高達90次，檢察官說要請法院從重量刑，這個已經是最後的結果。我在想過程，就是前面的原因，其實這個松姓教練已經有前科了，也被判緩刑了，但是他持良民證進入學校擔任教練，我請問一下這是我們的機制出了問題，還是臺中市政府教育局、學校出了問題？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這個機制我們前一陣子有透過國教署跟地方有做過補強，就是學校人員會輪動，所以承辦人員常常忘記要去做不適任教師的查詢，那我們現在要求每個學校外聘教練的時候都要簽訂合約，教練本身要願意給個資，然後學校這邊也提醒承辦人員一定要去做不適任教師的查詢，把這個洞補起來。"],["李委員坤城：所以現在會發生是那個學校沒有去做查詢，如果他們有查詢的話，查得到嗎？"],["陳委員培瑜：不一定。"],["李委員坤城：我們陳培瑜委員說不一定。"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個個案是查得到的。"],["李委員坤城：那什麼情況下會查不到？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，應該說過去社團的部分，不在學校的編制內，或者是計畫型教練的部分的確有這個漏洞，那目前已經補起來。"],["李委員坤城：有補起來了嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：我們跟國教署目前正在做討論，署長已經跟我做討論……"],["李委員坤城：所以目前我這樣聽起來是還沒有補起來就對了，因為學校都有課後的社團，他屬於課後的社團這部分，因為他不一定是老師，可是他們可以進來學校教課，所以他有可能沒有在這個通報的紀錄裡面就對了？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，如果你要進入校園大概都會去取得良民證，良民證裡面就會有記錄他有沒有前科，這是最基本的。"],["李委員坤城：這有確定嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，他就會去查，當然我們就把它放在那個系統裡面去查，如果確定沒有的話就沒有，如果有的話，但沒有被查出來，當然就是這個過程有問題……"],["李委員坤城：但是剛剛署長提到有關於課後社團的這些老師，我看國教署長跟體育署長……"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個種類很多……"],["李委員坤城：要不要有一個比較完整性的回答？"],["張廖次長萬堅：性平案件也都會，只要進入校園教課的外聘教練，不管是屬於什麼性質的，他只要涉及性平案件都會進入……"],["李委員坤城：都會有嗎？確定嗎？要確定哦！"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["李委員坤城：現在那個學校的棒球隊還有另外一個教練，他也涉及性平案件，但是學校說沒有達到不得聘任外聘教練的必要程度，這是去年12月底，我不確定現在的資料怎麼樣，那後來呢？後來他還有在其他學校繼續擔任教練嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想委員關心的事，我們會把資料再給委員，好不好？"],["主席：因為時間關係，請部會官員用書面方式來回復，可以嗎？"],["李委員坤城：就不能讓已經有性平案件的這一個教練再繼續擔任教練了啊！"],["張廖次長萬堅：對……"],["李委員坤城：這個洞你們要補起來。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們也會跟地方政府好好研商，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝次長。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員質詢，官員請回座，謝謝。","我們接下來繼續質詢，請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159497","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159497","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0ad82a65cbf044f42b06f2ced2e0bc09030d2cd94d4d2e021be90c14cbbb16b115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:56:27 - 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上次那個是台北國稅局辦的那上次那個也是因為重複都是幾個人對不對那後來查的結果是因為我上次有請那個部長你們要查清楚嘛對不對你們要查出來你們說沒有法律上的問題可是你們又罰了那個承包的廠商"},{"start":203.407,"end":218.301,"text":"跟委員逐一逐一的說明台北國稅局在去年辦的雲端種樹區這個部分我們第一個就是已經清查過了跟我們國稅局跟財政部所屬的所有同仁"},{"start":218.921,"end":245.647,"text":"以及三星等以內我們都查過都沒有關聯這些中獎都沒有關聯連廠商的相關的廠商也都沒有關聯都沒有內部的人第二個我們也了解原因在哪裡是因為他在這個城市裡面把權重做了一些不合一些調整以至於有一些結果增高他的中獎率設計本身就有問題這個設計當然可能超出一般的通常是就是說我如果丟很多大小我機率提高而不能夠去調整權重一個這樣跟一般的常識不一樣"},{"start":247.327,"end":275.995,"text":"那這個部分呢我們已經處理第一個就是說我們送檢調去查送調查局去查那他調查局初步查他已經查完以後覺得沒有不法沒有不法但是我們對於廠商呢依然請求民事的賠償現在在民事上面我們會去追溯他這個部分因為這個確實對於財政部也好國稅局也好都造成一些大家的一些信用上的一些損害這個部分我們已經向民事提起求償了"},{"start":276.975,"end":296.573,"text":"這個部分我們一定在做,而未來呢,我們對作為這種所謂的網路抽獎要特別謹慎,有想像高雄市追尋處這個事情就是被人家用,就是您講的科技的進步他用某種方式來突破你的某些點而造成一些不公平,以及社會認為對於政府的一個形象的破壞,就是不能反反身對,對,對"},{"start":302.475,"end":322.644,"text":"前面去清查然後去建立一個標準的晝夜程序出來嗎標準SOP要不然的話你看你高雄這個事情後來就罰了廠商那可是現在人民看到是什麼你的設計明明就是有問題嘛對不對你去加權所以導致了不公平嘛現在就是政府我今天的訴求有兩個啦有兩個事實上也是全民的訴求第一個"},{"start":323.644,"end":349.751,"text":"政府辦的 特別是財政部辦的一定是要公平不要變成是一個不公平的抽獎好不好是的 一定是公平公開對 第二個更重要的 副院長剛才說的前面去清查然後以後要建立一個機制出來一定要落實是公平的好不好是的 是的我再問一個民眾很關心的問題最近你們做了一個新的規定你們說以後如果出國去買到山寨版"},{"start":351.109,"end":377.027,"text":"山寨板小額免罰這個規定六月開始就要取消了以前說小額不罰嘛對不對現在不只要沒入喔就是說你如果買到山寨板你被我查到了不只沒收要罰三倍的這個價錢當然要打擊這個山寨板這個我們是肯定的可是現在碰到兩個大問題第一 民眾就反映啊買的時候我怎麼知道是真的假的對不對然後第二個他們也挑戰你們啊否定"},{"start":381.311,"end":386.397,"text":"你們的海關你們有辦法去檢測那個東西是真的還是假的嗎?有沒有辦法做到嗎?"},{"start":398.752,"end":416.083,"text":"對一般的旅客絕對跟沒有影響跟以往都一樣那海關的確沒有辦法判定他是不是反冒品所以我們會請權利人來做鑑定那權利人不來主張的話等於是放棄他的權利權利人主張確定那是反冒品的海關才會處理"},{"start":418.345,"end":445.752,"text":"所以權利人的說我如果去買那個精品就是精品店精品的這個廠商他們本身要鑑定就對了對好OK好謝謝請另外很多人問到的就是請問很多人到日本去藥妝店買東西嘛對不對是那那個不在這次的這個範圍裡面對不對沒有小沒有沒有這個範圍那不是仿冒品我去買了很多東西你們不會這個所以藥妝沒有問題藥妝我們這個規定是仿冒品那藥妝店的如果是正品"},{"start":447.524,"end":462.941,"text":"證品的話是沒有問題不會有這個問題最後做一個建議好不好因為很多人去買當然他如果去買山寨品本來就應該要被罰錢要沒入啦可是如果他能他不是故意的你如果去買的時候我認為他是真的嘛對不對"},{"start":464.042,"end":480.282,"text":"那我如果能夠提出一個證明譬如說不管是我的發票或者是我的這個刷卡那確實是跟真品的價格一樣這個可不可以就不要罰包委我們現在旅客的部分依照海關氣勢條例39條的規定就只有末日而已他不會處罰"},{"start":481.824,"end":491.153,"text":"就是還是要默住,然後就不會罰就對了只要他有證明,證明他確實是有付的,用申請的價格去的話,就不會再罰錢?不會不會好,謝謝謝謝齊凱"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1060,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時56分）請部長。"],["主席：我們請莊部長。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝主席。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，昨天晚上很多人在討論這一則新聞，說你們高雄國稅局辦了一個稅務突擊隊，結果中獎的很多都是姓彭，在網路上很多朋友戲稱都是彭家軍，結果檢調進去追、檢調進去查，後來發現是有個陳姓的被告用遊戲系統的漏洞，他建立了很多帳號，所以他連線59萬次，導致你們52個獎項裡面，他拿走了44個，最近這幾天，檢調用妨害電腦使用罪起訴他，今天我們討論財政部辦的抽獎，一定都要有公信力，對不對？一定是公平的，去年雲端發票的事情已經引起很多討論，為什麼又發生這樣的事情？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，您剛剛所提的「彭家軍」這個事情，並不是高雄國稅局辦的，而是高雄市稅捐稽徵處辦的。"],["張委員啓楷：是稅捐稽徵處？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，不是高雄國稅局辦的。"],["張委員啓楷：稅捐稽徵處辦的？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，不是高雄國稅局，也不是財政部。"],["張委員啓楷：後來你們有去了解到底為什麼會出現這樣的問題？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們大概有初步了解，也就是跟委員剛剛所講的，第一，就是他的通關遊戲有一些駭客入侵，我昨天看到大概也是駭客入侵，造成重複中獎，最後獎項重複的部分並沒有發放，然後高雄市稅捐處也會向廠商求償。"],["張委員啓楷：現在最大問題有兩個，第一個，當然大家對政府有信心，如果是政府辦的，應該是公平，結果現在發現它是不公平的。第二個，科技一直在進步，不管他是不是作弊，看起來是被攻破，或者他用他的方式造成不公平的機率越來越大，其實不只這個案子，去年雲端發票也是，雲端發票是臺北國稅局辦的，對不對？沒有錯吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，沒有錯，上次那個是臺北國稅局辦的。"],["張委員啓楷：上次那個也都是重複的幾個人，對不對？我上次有請部長查清楚，後來你們查出來說沒有法律上的問題，可是又罰了那個承包廠商。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員逐一說明，臺北國稅局去年辦的雲端種樹趣活動，第一，我們已經清查過了，國稅局、財政部所屬的所有同仁及三親等以內親屬，我們都查過，跟這些中獎都沒有關聯，連相關的廠商也都沒有關聯，都沒有內部的人。第二，我們也去了解原因，是因為他在程式裡把權重做了一些調整，以至於增高了他的中獎率……"],["張委員啓楷：那這個設計本身就有問題？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，這個設計可能超出一般的通常作法，就是如果我丟很多發票，機率就提高，而不能調整權重，這跟一般的常識不一樣。針對這個部分我們已經處理了，第一，送調查局調查，調查局初步查完後覺得沒有不法，但是我們依然對廠商請求民事賠償，就是我們會去追訴他的民事責任，因為確實已經對財政部及國稅局造成一些信用上的損害，所以我們已經提起民事求償了。未來，對於這種所謂的網路抽獎我們會特別謹慎，尤其像高雄市稅捐處的這個活動，就是被人家運用、利用委員剛剛講的科技方式予以突破，因而造成不公平，以及政府形象的破壞，這是不容再發生的。"],["張委員啓楷：法網恢恢，疏而不漏嘛！對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["張委員啓楷：你現在說要謹慎，那要怎麼做？本席認為，應該要全面清查，建立標準作業程序，有一個標準、SOP，要不然你看，高雄事情雖然後來罰了廠商，可是現在人民看到的是什麼？就是你的設計明明就有問題，對不對？你去加權，所以導致不公平嘛！我今天的訴求有兩個，事實上也是全民的訴求，第一個，政府辦的抽獎活動，特別是財政部，一定要公平，不要變成是一個不公平的抽獎，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，一定是公平、公開。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個更重要，就是部長剛才說的，全面清查，然後建立一套機制出來，一定要落實是公平的，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，是的。"],["張委員啓楷：好，我再問一個民眾很關心的問題，最近你們有一個新規定，就是出國誤買山寨版，小額免罰的規定將在6月開始取消，以前是小額不罰，對不對？現在是如果買到山寨版被你們查到了，不只沒收，還要罰三倍的價錢。當然打擊山寨版我們予以肯定，可是現在民眾反映會碰到兩個大問題，第一個，買的時候怎麼知道是真是假？第二個，民眾也挑戰你們，質疑你們的海關有辦法檢測那個東西是真還是假嗎？有辦法做到嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我請關務署署長跟您說明，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：主席已經站起來了，我們儘快在2分鐘內完成，好不好？給我2分鐘，謝謝主席。"],["彭署長英偉：對一般旅客來講，絕對沒有影響，跟以往都一樣，海關的確沒有辦法判定它是不是仿冒品，所以我們會請權利人來鑑定，如果權利人不來主張，等於是放棄他的權利，權利人主張確定那是仿冒品，海關才會處理。"],["張委員啓楷：所謂權利人，譬如我去買一個精品，那就是精品的廠商本身要去鑑定？"],["彭署長英偉：對。"],["張委員啓楷：好，OK。另外也有很多人問到，到日本藥妝店買東西，那部分不在這次的範圍裡面，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：那不是仿冒品，沒有問題。"],["張委員啓楷：我去買了很多東西，所以藥妝沒有問題？"],["彭署長英偉：我們這個規定是針對仿冒品，藥妝店的如果是正品，就沒有問題。"],["張委員啓楷：不會有這個問題？"],["彭署長英偉：不會。"],["張委員啓楷：好，最後做一個建議，因為出國很多人會買東西，當然如果他去買山寨品，本來就應該被罰錢，沒入商品，可是如果他不是故意的，也就是買的時候認為是真的，如果他能夠提出證明，不管是發票或者刷卡紀錄，確實跟真品價格一樣，這個可不可以就不要罰？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，旅客的部分，依照海關緝私條例第三十九條規定，都只有沒入而已，不會處罰，不會罰款。"],["張委員啓楷：就是還是要沒入，但不會罰就對了？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["張委員啓楷：只要他有證明，證明他確實是付了真品的價格……"],["彭署長英偉：沒問題，沒問題。"],["張委員啓楷：就不會再罰錢？"],["彭署長英偉：不會，不會。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席（賴委員惠員）：好，謝謝啓楷。","接著請李彥秀委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159496","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159496","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0745304eb523ac93f01b4bb3d6676f3fd30d2cd94d4d2e02104c117b4160d12fc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"13:41:39 - 13:50:56","影片長度":"00:09:17","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T13:41:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T13:50:56+08:00","duration":557,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.5153437499999995,"end":6.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.894718750000001,"end":9.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.662218750000001,"end":12.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.56909375,"end":30.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.570343750000003,"end":57.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.789718750000006,"end":96.69096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.96096875,"end":98.76659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.23909375000001,"end":107.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.21659375,"end":111.42284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.69721875,"end":110.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.87846875000001,"end":112.89096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.46471875,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.34346875,"end":154.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.21346875,"end":156.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.73221875000002,"end":159.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.00596875000002,"end":199.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.40909375,"end":200.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.92346875,"end":207.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.74096875,"end":209.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.47909375,"end":212.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.68971875000003,"end":224.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.73846875,"end":273.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.89534375,"end":275.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.90346875,"end":277.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.50659375000004,"end":284.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.96971875,"end":292.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.07846875,"end":290.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.49159375,"end":296.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.30534375,"end":302.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.26221875000005,"end":355.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.27909375,"end":302.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.09784375000004,"end":356.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.92471875,"end":359.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.95784375,"end":386.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.17721875,"end":412.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.32096875,"end":412.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.84409375,"end":415.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.24034375,"end":423.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.55534375,"end":429.11159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.26346875,"end":484.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.78784375000004,"end":476.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.18721875000006,"end":500.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.20596875,"end":500.37471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.37471875000006,"end":500.76284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.76284375000006,"end":514.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.38096875,"end":551.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.35409375,"end":552.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.90659375,"end":555.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.00721875,"end":557.0747187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.049,"end":0.73,"text":"謝主席 請次長請次長備質詢 謝謝好 謝謝委員 委員好"},{"start":12.734,"end":30.599,"text":"次長辛苦了已經中午了大家都需要休息但我也很快速的掌握我僅有的時間我今天在這邊聆聽教文會委員的質詢我不斷的聽到在野黨的委員說不要跟我講才化法今天不是講才化法"},{"start":31.619,"end":57.576,"text":"但問題是 財化法就是各級政府財政的根本大法它等於是國家財政的準限法任何的預算執行 何況現在要另立新法都關乎制度的健全以及預算哪裡來怎麼可以不談財化法呢在要黨的委員是不是肇事逃逸啊"},{"start":58.897,"end":78.486,"text":"修了才化法最後屁股拍拍走了不要跟我講才化法不要跟我講才化法我認為這不是理性負責的國會議員那這幾天我召集了教育部從國教到高教各個私處我們不斷地在搶救教育預算"},{"start":79.306,"end":106.958,"text":"所以今天我要跟您來討論本席在這幾屆立委的任內我投入催生我爭取的預算我當然特別在乎我不希望他因為總預算扼山扼棟我更不希望他因為才化法來讓整個預算都喊咔都斷錘首先我聚焦在美學教育您知道思瑤最最在乎的夏業"},{"start":108.898,"end":132.805,"text":"自曉你一定非常熟悉學美美學計畫六年了當初從無到有 吳思堯一路催生2020年我們學美美學的計畫雖然是小規模 小預算 小計畫但是它有大影響 大效益它甚至獲得日本Good Design設計大獎的年度世界大獎Best of the Best"},{"start":133.405,"end":159.039,"text":"以前是台灣人去日本看日本的校園空間改造現在是日本人帶團隊來台灣學習六年的學文美學計畫校園空間改造完成了109所學校教師專業發展空間也完成了三個縣市獲得補助但是但是他預算可能沒了下一頁"},{"start":160.08,"end":165.564,"text":"第二個也是本席催生努力的美感教育剛剛講的是空間環境現在講的是整個課程內容美感教育一樣是六年有成進入了第三期我們完成了2960個課程案例"},{"start":179.275,"end":207.598,"text":"培育出2133位的種子教師我們全台灣有1907個學校參與受惠的學生高達47萬人而現在我們更跟文化部擴大合作美感體驗的教育下一頁所以次長預算被二砍二刪然後明年還面對才化法各個私處大家都"},{"start":208.806,"end":221.283,"text":"人心惶惶大家都很擔心那個中央一個指令因為立法院砍了三七五三一挖走了然後各個部會都要從自己的業務去尊潔28.7%"},{"start":224.847,"end":239.895,"text":"我很擔心我不樂見所有的美學美感的教育最後會被犧牲如果你們優先從這些美學美感的教育因為大家覺得文化是什麼吃飽了肚子再說"},{"start":241.236,"end":268.177,"text":"優先從這些美學美感已經非常有規模很可能因為它喊咔斷吹而復之一炬功虧一簣我在這裡請求真的是請求學美美學計畫預算不多只有五千四百萬一年由師藝司跟國教署分擔而美感教育第三級每年三點三億是中央要補助地方跟地方政府還有文化部來協力"},{"start":269.958,"end":296.008,"text":"絕對不要動到我們的美感美學教育可以嗎努力嘛可以嗎我為文化發聲我想我們這部分是真的很想努力啦不過整體的衝擊真的還是有待評估啦我只提點您不要因為文化是吃飽了以後再去面對的是台灣過去有這種錯的思維這些預算不應當被優先犧牲我只做這個提醒"},{"start":296.328,"end":323.231,"text":"好 謝謝 我想地方政府我們會提醒他們就是要接好 錢接好了 業務也要接好因為我是計畫的催生者 我比誰都在乎下一個 回到今天主題我再佔用兩分鐘 不好意思主席 謝謝校園飲食法其實我是立法院第九屆第一個提出法案的第十屆我也有提出校園飲食法但是這一屆我自己的法案還持續的在研議我還沒有丟出來 為什麼"},{"start":324.992,"end":337.377,"text":"因為我知道我們要增加資源增加人員中央想做可是地方政府還沒有共識所以現在如果立法委員覺得修法立法很簡單我條文寫一寫丟出去就好而不管他能不能夠執行我認為這樣不負責任"},{"start":344.039,"end":359.173,"text":"立法委員來自各個縣市大家如果想修這個專法那大家負責任回去跟自己所屬的縣市政府來協助溝通您同意吧我同意這個這樣才能夠加速讓立法真的能夠完成下一頁"},{"start":360.094,"end":376.079,"text":"而關鍵就是才化法嘛您剛報告說得很清楚現在已經擴大了幫助各級政府補助每年74億讓學生吃的健康吃的安全吃的有品質吃的有文化每年74億未來如果現在趕快立法還要再增加人力營養師午餐殖密每年還要plus26億我們認為要做但是誰來買單"},{"start":387.402,"end":399.887,"text":"這就是我說的如果各位委員認為立這個專法如此重要我也在乎我是第一個提出倡議的委員但是大家把這個責任帶回去一起協助跟地方政府來討論未來才化法3753億回歸各個地方地方也有責任來協助分擔這樣這個活動有可能向前走對不對"},{"start":413.361,"end":422.925,"text":"現在是教育部面臨最大的現實的問題你們持續溝通中好最後兩頁很快的說如果沒有這個專法我們的校園食安就做不了嗎"},{"start":424.982,"end":443.39,"text":"這幾年來我們用了學校衛生法作為base我們修改了所有教育部的行政規章我們落實了校園食安防護網我敢說是史上最嚴的我們的三張EQ從2019年的普及率只有56%到現在2024年年底已經來到98.67%三張EQ看到成果我們另外給蘿蔔也給棒子"},{"start":454.534,"end":463.2,"text":"提高學生的餐食補助史上最高一個學生一餐補十塊中央給錢偏鄉給十四塊中央買單這是蘿蔔罐子是什麼我當初跟著國教署長您還是立委我們一起跟國教署把3368個學校的營養午餐團善契約一個一個拿出來看從契約下手我們要確保學生在校園吃的每一口肉每一口菜都是Made in Taiwan對不對"},{"start":485.295,"end":497.109,"text":"所以史上最好的食安防護網我們努力做到如果還有不夠我們繼續精進但是不能夠以藥力專法才做得到我認為這個說法太過簡化"},{"start":501.173,"end":521.978,"text":"對 其實陸續在做 108年大家提出專法還沒有落實的時候都透過學校衛生法 透過行政的手段不斷的增加資源 解決偏鄉的問題 補助弱勢兒童還有食材的補助 我想都一直陸續在做好 最後一頁 謝謝主席 我知道您站起來了我們也要透明公開 食材的追溯溯源也在我們上一屆做到了"},{"start":522.558,"end":548.555,"text":"吳思瑤催生了比較我們疫情的疫情儀表板我們催生了校園豬肉儀表板所有的食材溯源Made in Taiwan的食材每一個學校都可以追蹤包括老師包括家長所以現在還沒有專法之前行政作業能夠做的一定要持續強化但是如果要立專法我們就要負責任的跟地方政府協調好經費的分擔這才是正辦"},{"start":551.437,"end":555.344,"text":"目前就朝這個方向在做好也謝謝主席我們跨黨派一起努力謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1403,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（13時41分）謝謝主席，請次長。"],["主席：請次長備詢，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員，委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：次長辛苦了，已經中午了，大家都需要休息，我也很快速的掌握我僅有的時間。","今天在這邊聆聽教文會委員的質詢，我不斷的聽到在野黨的委員說，不要跟我講財劃法、今天不是講財劃法，但問題是財劃法就是各級政府財政的根本大法，等於是國家財政的準憲法，任何的預算執行，何況現在要另立新法都關乎制度的健全以及預算哪裡來，怎麼可以不談財劃法呢？在野黨的委員是不是肇事逃逸？修了財劃法，最後屁股拍拍走了，不要跟我講財劃法，我認為這不是理性負責的國會議員。","這幾天我召集教育部，從國教到高教各個司處，我們不斷的在搶救教育預算，所以今天我要跟您來討論，本席在這幾屆立委任內投入催生、爭取的預算，我當然特別在乎，我不希望因為總預算惡刪惡凍，我更不希望因為財劃法來讓整個預算都喊卡、斷炊。","首先，我聚焦在美學教育，您知道思瑤最在乎的，次長，您一定非常熟悉「學美美學計畫」6年了，當初從無到有，吳思瑤一路催生，2020年學美美學的計畫雖然是小規模、小預算、小計畫，但是它有大影響、大效益，甚至獲得日本GOOD DESIGN設計大獎的年度世界大獎BEST OF THE BEST，以前是臺灣人去日本看日本的校園空間改造，現在是日本人帶團隊來臺灣學習，6年的學美美學計畫，校園空間改造完成了109所學校，教師專業發展空間也完成了3個縣市獲得補助，但是預算可能沒了。","第二個，也是本席催生努力的美感教育，剛剛講的是空間環境，現在講的是整個課程內容，美感教育一樣是6年有成，進入了第3期，我們完成了2,960個課程案例、培育出2,133位的種子教師、全臺灣有1,907個學校參與、受惠的學生高達47萬人，而現在我們更跟文化部擴大合作美感體驗的教育。","次長，預算被惡砍惡刪，明年還面對財劃法，各個司處大家都人心惶惶、都很擔心中央一個指令，因為立法院砍了3,753億挖走了，各個部會都要從自己的業務去撙節28.7%，我很擔心、我不樂見，所有的美學美感的教育最後會被犧牲，如果你們優先從這些美學美感的教育，因為大家覺得文化是什麼？吃飽了肚子再說，優先從美學美感已經非常有規模，很可能因為喊卡斷炊而付之一炬、功虧一簣。我在這裡請求學美美學計畫預算不多，1年只有5,400萬，由師藝司跟國教署分擔，而美感教育第3期每年3.3億是中央要補助地方，跟地方政府還有文化部來協力，絕對不要動到我們的美感美學教育，可以嗎？努力嘛！我為文化發聲。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們這部分是真的很想努力，不過整體的衝擊真的還是有待評估。"],["吳委員思瑤：我只提點您不要因為文化是吃飽了以後再去面對，臺灣過去有這種錯的思維，這些預算不應當被優先犧牲，我只做這個提醒。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝。關於地方政府我們會提醒他們，錢接好了，業務也要接好。"],["吳委員思瑤：因為我是計畫的催生者，我比誰都在乎。","下一個，回到今天主題，我再占用2分鐘，不好意思，主席謝謝。校園飲食法其實我是立法院第9屆第一個提出法案的，第10屆我也有提出校園飲食法，但是這一屆我自己的法案還持續的在研議，我還沒有丟出來，因為我知道我們要增加資源，增加人員，中央想做，可是地方政府還沒有共識，所以現在如果立法委員覺得修法、立法很簡單，我條文寫一寫丟出去就好，而不管能不能夠執行，我認為這樣不負責任。立法委員來自各個縣市，大家如果想修這個專法，大家負責任回去跟自己所屬的縣市政府來協助溝通，您同意吧？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我同意。"],["吳委員思瑤：這樣才能夠加速讓立法真的能夠完成。而關鍵就是財劃法，您剛剛報告說得很清楚，現在已經擴大了幫助各級政府補助每年74億，讓學生吃得健康、吃得安全、吃得有品質、吃得有文化，每年74億，如果現在趕快立法，未來還要再增加人力、營養師、午餐執行秘書，每年還要plus 26億，我們認為要做，但是誰來買單？這就是我說的，如果各位委員認為立這個專法如此重要，我也在乎，我是第一個提出倡議的委員，但是大家把這個責任帶回去，一起協助跟地方政府來討論，未來財劃法3,753億回歸各個地方，地方也有責任來協助分擔，這個法才有可能向前走，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：現在是這是教育部面臨最大的現實的問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：你們持續溝通中。最後兩頁，我很快地說，如果沒有這個專法，校園食安就做不了嗎？這幾年來，我們用了學校衛生法作為base，修改了所有教育部的行政規章，落實校園食安防護網，我敢說是史上最嚴的，「三章一Q」從2019年的普及率只有56%，到現在2024年年底已經來到98.67%，「三章一Q」看到成果。另外我們給蘿蔔也給棒子，提高學生的餐食補助，史上最高，1個學生1餐補10塊，中央給錢；偏鄉給14塊，中央買單，這是蘿蔔，棍子是什麼？我當初跟著國教署長，您還是立委，我們一起跟國教署把3,368個學校的營養午餐團膳契約一個一個拿出來看，從契約下手，我們要確保學生在校園吃的每一口肉、每一口菜，都是made in Taiwan，對不對？所以史上最好的食安防護網我們努力做到，如果還有不夠，我們繼續精進，但是不能夠以要立專法才做得到，我認為這個說法太過簡化。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，其實陸續在做了，108年大家提出專法、還沒有落實的時候，都透過學校衛生法、透過行政的手段不斷的增加資源，解決偏鄉的問題，補助弱勢兒童，還有食材的補助，我想一直都陸續在做。"],["吳委員思瑤：是。","最後一頁，謝謝主席，我知道您站起來了。我們也要透明公開食材的溯源，這也在我們上一屆做到了，吳思瑤比照疫情儀表板催生了校園豬肉儀表板，所有的食材溯源、made in Taiwan的食材每一個學校都可以追蹤，包括老師、包括家長。所以現在還沒有專法之前，行政作業能夠做的一定要持續強化，但是如果要立專法，我們就要負責任的跟地方政府協調好經費的分擔，這才是正辦。"],["張廖次長萬堅：目前就朝這個方向在做。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，也謝謝主席，我們跨黨派一起努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員質詢。官員請回座。","接下來繼續請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159495","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159495","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0c274ec9bab9a177a01b4bb3d6676f3fd30d2cd94d4d2e0211aa97a5015985c895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"13:35:55 - 13:41:33","影片長度":"00:05:38","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T13:35:55+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T13:41:33+08:00","duration":338,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.278468750000002,"end":11.320343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.36659375,"end":13.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.488468750000003,"end":228.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.775343750000001,"end":16.180343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.127218750000004,"end":32.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.83909375000002,"end":243.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.36471875,"end":248.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.56659375,"end":244.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.46096875,"end":246.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.27096875,"end":249.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.02159375000002,"end":312.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.60221875,"end":260.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.47971875,"end":261.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.18471875,"end":313.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.39971875000003,"end":334.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.85096875,"end":316.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.31471875,"end":318.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.85221875,"end":335.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.18534375,"end":336.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.51409375000003,"end":338.40846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.75,"end":12.82,"text":"請李燕秀委員質詢謝謝教委我可不可以請正式有請次長備詢"},{"start":16.432,"end":32.275,"text":"謝謝政策 我希望等一下你對我的回應也可以像回答洪孟凱這樣子我想這幾個條例不管是哪一個政黨委員大家都很關注希望可以這個會期通過部長我是一個孩子的媽媽我相信你也是為人父我應該沒錯嗎學校的營養午餐非常重要不僅要兼顧他是足夠營養但更重要的是他要好吃"},{"start":41.557,"end":70.116,"text":"在營養不好吃孩子不願意吃全部都丟掉那叫做浪費到最後變成下午去買零食一下課衝去買零食買飲品這個就被造成最後肥胖症我們台灣的孩子很多只是超過營養不良的狀況太瘦或太胖都有反而是不健康這個是我要關注的議題那我也關注到兒萌為國中生營養午餐評分的時候其實只有對於我們現在營養午餐只有51.4"},{"start":71.777,"end":76.539,"text":"這是一個不及格的分數營養午餐不夠營養或不夠好吃這都是現在的問題那因為我今天時間不夠多包括我們現在營養午餐每週供應兩次以上的眼菜罐頭還有碗內的食品還有包括還有重組的七塊培根等等都是有問題的那整理而言不到三成也就是27.9%的菜色全部被吃光這就是我剛才講的"},{"start":96.185,"end":113.427,"text":"營養午餐味道不夠好太油或這都造成剩菜的原因到最後變成孩子去下課趕快衝去買零食來裹腹這個是現在最大的問題那另外一塊也就是我們現在的營養午餐其實就是我們現在食安系統性的另外一個"},{"start":114.528,"end":140.1,"text":"有可能發生問題因為餐點常常比較早做悶了好久或不夠安全或運送的過程有問題反而造成系統性的食安問題這個是我們現在發生最大的狀況包括現在2023年有1491人攝取我們的營養午餐發生問題所以營養午餐有可能有系統性的問題所以"},{"start":141.661,"end":168.124,"text":"我要就教於正次你也是父親我想我們都有同樣的感覺知道營養午餐的這個草案其實非常重要我們2019年就已經提出來我們希望趕快把這個營養午餐條例可以出去但現在都已經是第三個會期談到現在所以我們營養午餐法我非常希望在這一次大家各政黨支持之下不同版本大家有共識之下可以盡速的完成"},{"start":168.624,"end":191.441,"text":"那我們現在營養午餐的這個全國大概只有630名營養師在做協助其他沒有營養師的部分就是教職員護理師營養師兼任有營養師的也就算了但是這次你應該清楚知道我要講的現在學校的老師教職員又有行政業務又要教學又要背新的課程"},{"start":192.322,"end":207.011,"text":"其實是非常辛苦他還要再堅韌管理營養午餐所以營養午餐管不管得好你我心裡都有數所以很難把營養午餐照顧得全心全意我們希望達到的目標做得更好"},{"start":207.911,"end":228.628,"text":"這就是現在在學校營養午餐的問題這也是凸顯出我們營養午餐條例這個法案競訴必須要送出最主要的目的所以我想你我都不希望都希望回歸到專職去處理營養午餐絕對不再是由教職員兼職我說到現在你應該同意我的說法"},{"start":228.888,"end":243.174,"text":"教職員兼職已經改善了就是現在的那個比例已經降低就是這幾年來108年我們大概提出午餐專法還沒有立專法之前我們也是依照學校衛生法在做管理我知道但是你降低了比例其實這都不應該是"},{"start":244.494,"end":248.64,"text":"都不應該是教職員去兼任我知道你有降低但是但是他畢竟不是專業嘛我們希望就是由營養師來去做處理由護理師來去做處理由教職員來做處理雖然你說降低比例但由他來處理還是怪怪的"},{"start":261.118,"end":265.922,"text":"所以我覺得這不應該是我覺得我們的目標應該是由專人來去處理營養午餐我們的目標應該是這樣而不是由教職員來專任嘛那我覺得這個都不是應該是我們教育部主管應該有的態度所以這是第一個點我覺得這個法案送出去大家有共識盡速的處理因為已經談了三個會期了我想大家有共識應該盡速的處理"},{"start":286.681,"end":313.076,"text":"那另外我要提到就是譬如說芬蘭跟瑞典他們有提供就是說提供義務教育的營養午餐包括日本都有給食的相關的設備包括運送的過程經費都是有國家負擔所以我再次提醒就是說我們這個法案送出的時候有一些學校我們可能經費不足或偏鄉經費不足我們應該去思考說包括給食的設備包括營運的這部分陸續都有補償"},{"start":313.696,"end":334.37,"text":"對,我們希望不是故事,因為有的地方有,有的地方多,有的地方少。所以,鄭次,我想這個部分,我覺得我都希望是整部法案裡面,我們把它討論得更周延,更完整,不會有偏鄉成鄉的差距。這是以上我今天質詢的重點,也希望這個會期大家有共識可以儘速地通過。好,謝謝委員關心。謝謝鄭次,謝謝。"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1380,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（13時36分）謝謝召委，我可不可以請政次。"],["主席：有請次長備詢。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝政次。我希望等一下你對我的回應也可以像回答洪孟楷這樣子，我想這幾個條例不管是哪一個政黨委員，大家都很關注，希望可以這個會期通過。部長，我是一個孩子的媽媽，我相信你也是為人父，應該沒錯嘛？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，兩個孩子。"],["李委員彥秀：學校的營養午餐非常重要，不僅要兼顧它是足夠營養，但更重要的是要好吃，再營養不好吃，孩子不願意吃，全部都丟掉那叫做浪費，到最後變成一下課衝去買零食、買飲品，這個最後造成肥胖症，我們臺灣的孩子很多是超過體重、營養不良的狀況，太瘦或太胖都有，反而是不健康，這是我要關注的議題。我也關注到兒盟為國中生營養午餐評分的時候，對於現在的營養午餐只有51.3分，這是一個不及格的分數，營養午餐不夠營養或不夠好吃都是現在的問題。因為我今天時間不夠多，包括現在營養午餐每週供應兩次以上的醃菜、罐頭、丸類的食品，包括還有它重組的雞塊、培根等等，都是有問題的，整體而言不到三成，也就是27.9%的菜色全部被吃光，這就是我剛剛講的營養午餐味道不夠好、太油造成剩菜的原因，到最後變成孩子下課趕快衝去買零食來裹腹，這是現在最大的問題。","另外，現在的營養午餐其實也是食安系統性另一個有可能發生問題，因為餐點常常比較早做、悶了好久、不夠安全或運送的過程有問題，反而造成系統性的食安問題，這個是我們現在發生最大的狀況，包括2023年有1,491人攝取營養午餐發生問題，所以營養午餐可能有系統性的問題，我要就教於政次，你也是父親，我想我們都有同樣的感覺，知道營養午餐的草案其實非常重要，我們2019年就已經提出來，希望趕快把這營養午餐條例可以推出去，但現在都已經是第3會期。談到現在，營養午餐法我非常希望在這一次大家各政黨支持之下，不同版本在大家有共識下可以儘速的完成。","現在營養午餐全國大概就有630名營養師在做協助，其他沒有營養師的部分，就是教職員、護理師，營養師兼任，有營養師的也就算了，但是政次你應該清楚知道我要講的，現在學校的老師、教職員又有行政業務、又要教學、又要備新的課程，其實是非常辛苦，他還要再兼任管理營養午餐，所以營養午餐管不管得好，你我心裡都有數，所以很難把營養午餐照顧得全心全意，我們希望達到的目標做得更好，這就是現在在學校營養午餐的問題，這也是凸顯出營養午餐條例這個法案必須要儘速送出的最主要目的。所以我想你我都希望回歸到專職去處理營養午餐，絕對不再是由教職員兼職，我說到現在您應該同意我的說法？"],["張廖次長萬堅：教職員兼職已經改善了，就是現在的比例已經降低，這幾年來，108年我們提出午餐專法，還沒有立專法之前，我們也是依照學校衛生法在做管理，那也增加了不少資源，所以……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，但是降低了比例，其實這都不應該是教職員兼任，我知道你有降低……"],["張廖次長萬堅：關於你講的那些問題，我們是逐年在改善……"],["李委員彥秀：對，但是他畢竟不是專業，我們希望就是由營養師、護理師來去做處理，假設由教職員來做處理，雖然你說由教職員有降低比例，但由教職員來處理還是怪怪的，所以我們的目標應該是由專任來去處理營養午餐，我覺得這個都不是教育部主管應該有的態度，這是第一點，這個法案送出去，大家有共識，儘速的處理，因為已經談了3個會期了。","另外，譬如說芬蘭跟瑞典有提供義務教育的營養午餐，包括日本都有給食的相關設備，包括運送的過程、經費都是由國家負擔，所以我再次提醒，這個法案送出的時候，有一些學校可能經費不足或偏鄉經費不足，我們應該去思考，包括給食的設備、營運的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：這部分陸續都有補助。"],["李委員彥秀：我們希望不是陸續……"],["張廖次長萬堅：現在已經都補助完了。"],["李委員彥秀：因為有的地方有、有的地方多、有的地方少。"],["張廖次長萬堅：都有補助。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我希望整部法案我們把它討論的更周延、更完整，不會有偏鄉城鄉的差距，這是以上我今天質詢的重點，也希望這個會期大家有共識，可以儘速的通過。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員關心。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝政次。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員質詢。官員請回座，我們繼續質詢，請吳思瑤委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159494","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159494","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb04362d409f893e60601b4bb3d6676f3fd30d2cd94d4d2e021ee4908f1f42fde8f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"13:30:47 - 13:35:50","影片長度":"00:05:03","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T13:30:47+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T13:35:50+08:00","duration":303,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.2034687500000003,"end":4.2497187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.294718750000001,"end":17.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.96909375,"end":27.824093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.06159375,"end":20.820968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.414718750000002,"end":41.408468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.304718750000003,"end":31.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.418468750000002,"end":33.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.619718750000004,"end":39.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.81784375,"end":41.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.76284375,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.97784375,"end":87.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.68221875,"end":72.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.35284375,"end":73.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.03846875,"end":88.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.15221875,"end":88.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.16909375,"end":88.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.55721875,"end":94.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.85221875,"end":91.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.92784375000001,"end":104.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.92284375000001,"end":98.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.62659375000001,"end":103.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.14971875,"end":142.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.96221875,"end":150.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.13909375,"end":145.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.61534375000002,"end":148.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.64034375,"end":158.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.65721875,"end":150.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.31846875000002,"end":162.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.45284375,"end":179.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.34534375,"end":175.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.73284375,"end":208.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.19659375,"end":182.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.59346875,"end":207.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.97721875000002,"end":209.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.19659375,"end":209.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.44971875000002,"end":218.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.29284375,"end":215.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.75659375,"end":217.75221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.25846875000002,"end":218.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.37221875,"end":252.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.29971875,"end":224.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.56659375,"end":244.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.00909375,"end":248.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.51471875000001,"end":252.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.96596875000003,"end":254.38784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.51846875,"end":260.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.96909375,"end":261.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.35721875,"end":295.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.42596875000004,"end":280.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.44659375000003,"end":286.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.65284375000005,"end":286.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.90596875,"end":289.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.64721875000004,"end":295.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.90034375000005,"end":305.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.00471875,"end":303.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.10596875000005,"end":303.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.19034375,"end":307.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.56534375,"end":306.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.67909375,"end":310.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.64096875,"end":308.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.80096875000004,"end":310.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.86846875000003,"end":322.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.90221875000003,"end":312.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.967843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那也有人開始有討論我們有沒有機會因為去年是在韓國打MLB的海外賽今年在日本打MLB的海外賽那有沒有機會我們有爭取的空間其實已經在談就是說這個台灣也可以爭取不過如果從現實面來看"},{"start":76.027,"end":94.519,"text":"因為明年有經典賽那後年可能又遇到那個十二強或者是那個奧運的那個選拔那二零二八會有奧運賽所以其實在討論結果說最可能是在二零二八之後是但是也有看到我們中華時報的會長也是我們立院同事蔡吉昌會長有講到他講的確實是目前比較有可能的時間點那站在站在教育部這邊當然未來的運動部我想也都會支持這樣之類"},{"start":104.206,"end":124.384,"text":"不管是教育部或是未來的運動部其實本席有一個很大的想法跟期待在於是說這雖然是NLB官方所主導的但是就各地方不管日本不管韓國其實他們政府的力量給予支持也有很大的一個部分那一樣台灣在棒球來講是我們的國球"},{"start":124.864,"end":150.419,"text":"我們也希望是說能夠把最高水準的比賽來到台灣甚至因為他們這一次到期跟小熊打他們還先跟日本的職棒球隊交流熱身所以他其實對於整體的運動產業發展帶動絕對是有正向幫助市長你同意吧對我想我同意就像韓子其實今年也來了三隊也在打熱身賽也引起了好幾千人在看所以我覺得那個是非常好的一個現象"},{"start":150.759,"end":178.706,"text":"所以我們從現在假設我當然不是說馬上期待說明年NLB就可以來我們這邊打海外賽但是如果假設以2028、2029為一個目標五年的一個計畫次長有什麼想法我跟你講身為球迷的你跟我我們都期待如果我們有這個能力來邀請那地方這個各民間也都配合包括中子大聯盟因為一定要是那個職棒聯盟來協助才有可能的話那我樂觀其成而且會全力促進"},{"start":180.106,"end":194.114,"text":"當然不只樂觀其成還要全力促成那促成很大的一個部分就是我們今天要提到的運產條例的一個修法24條跟26條嘛2021年的時候那時候大家一起共同推動就是讓它有150%的這樣的一個"},{"start":196.335,"end":216.491,"text":"優惠稅額能夠來支持我們的運動產業帶動整體的發展那我請教兩三年過去了這幾年的這個帶動投入這個產業的這個金額數量金額其實是在成長不過就是說到第二年已經到10億左右是然後到去年是11億左右那我們的上限是多少上限是30億30億還沒用到對啊"},{"start":219.585,"end":240.081,"text":"市長所以這是為什麼我們提出來修法這是環環相扣的喔就是說我們希望有更高水準的比賽來我們台灣但另外一個部分我們給予的不管是支持讓這些企業支持運動產業的部分我們有沒有那個可以在更鬆綁的空間或是更加強的力道因為2021年150%到現在我們那時候設了30億的天花板可是這兩年只有10億跟11億"},{"start":248.527,"end":254.116,"text":"所以距離那30%的天花板我們還有20億的成長空間那不能"},{"start":255.578,"end":278.177,"text":"我們就是想說那沒關係反正就150%要來院者上鉤要投就投不投拉倒所以本席以及我們今天不管藍綠的委員也都有提出相關的修法版本可能有希望是說調高200%250%等等的部分那請教因為你們今天教育部給我們的回覆是涉及公平性建議跟行政院版本並案討論"},{"start":279.338,"end":301.48,"text":"那什麼時候行政院版本會出來我們兩個禮拜後會送行政院兩個禮拜內送行政院檢查所以現在已經有研議了包括說可能討論我變到200%的時候可能會增加多少250%增加多少或者是因為每一個政策一定都會有邊際效應嘛我可能到哪一個程度的時候是收益最高你譬如說放寬到500%說不定反而沒有250%來的效果好"},{"start":305.463,"end":320.434,"text":"這點您可以理解嗎所以兩個禮拜後會送行政院那行政院會不會很快的還是要再交其他財政部等相關的部會甚至他有沒有辦法通過院版正式送到立法院有信心在這個會期送出來嗎"},{"start":321.935,"end":345.394,"text":"對我想一定會因為行政委員已經列為本會期的優先法案所以我們一定會送進來跟委員的案並審那在不管有沒有動的法條我們都願意來聆聽委員的意見好所以剛剛次長特別提到了就是說這個會期行政院運產條例24、26條以及其他條文的修正院版會送進來立法院我們在並案討論我們等你會期喔這個會期到531喔只剩兩個月喔"},{"start":351.138,"end":370.496,"text":"OK 沒有問題 我們來努力市長突然間搖身邊好像變院長的感覺了那麼拍胸部保證我欣賞你的努力我也希望真的能夠送進來因為這樣子我們共同來討論還可以真真正正幫助到我們運動產業進一步的築更大的夢好不好好 謝謝謝謝洪孟凱委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1312,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時29分）感謝主席。麻煩請張廖次長跟體育署鄭署長。"],["主席：請次長、署長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好，辛苦了。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，次長、署長，簡單先請教有沒有看到最近日本有什麼樣的體育大事？"],["張廖次長萬堅：就是道奇跟小熊。"],["洪委員孟楷：小熊的海外賽，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：前幾天在記者會的時候，大谷翔平選手也被問到，當時應該是我們臺灣的媒體朋友。"],["張廖次長萬堅：臺灣，對、對。"],["洪委員孟楷：有問他：有沒有考慮在臺灣打比賽？他那時候當然很客氣，他身為世界一級的棒球員，他回答說：如果能夠在臺灣球迷面前比賽是很幸福的事情。好，也有人開始在討論我們有沒有機會，因為去年是在韓國打MLB的海外賽、今年在日本打MLB的海外賽，有沒有機會我們有爭取的空間？"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實已經在談，就是說臺灣也可以爭取，不過如果從現實面來看，因為明年有經典賽，後年可能又遇到十二強或奧運的選拔，2028年會有奧運賽，所以討論的結果最可能是在2028年之後。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，本席有看到中華職棒的會長……"],["張廖次長萬堅：也是有跟他這樣說。"],["洪委員孟楷：也是我們立院同事的蔡其昌會長有講到……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，他講的確實是目前比較有可能的時間點。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["張廖次長萬堅：站在教育部這邊，當然未來的運動部也都會支持這樣之類……"],["洪委員孟楷：不管是教育部或未來的運動部，其實本席有一個很大的想法跟期待，這雖然是MLB官方所主導的，但是就各地方，不管日本、不管韓國，其實他們政府的力量給予支持也有很大的一個部分。一樣的，臺灣在棒球來講是我們的國球，我們也希望最高水準的比賽能夠來到臺灣，甚至這一次道奇跟小熊打，他們還先跟日本的職棒球隊交流熱身，所以它其實對於整體的運動產業發展帶動絕對是有正向幫助，次長，你同意吧？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我同意，就像韓職今年也來了三隊、也在打熱身賽、也引起了好幾千人在看，所以我覺得那個是非常好的一個現象。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以現在假設……我當然不是馬上期待明年MLB就可以來我們這邊打海外賽，但是如果以2028、2029年為一個目標，五年的一個計畫，次長，有什麼想法？"],["張廖次長萬堅：身為球迷的你跟我，我們都期待，如果我們有這個能力來邀請，各民間也都配合，包括中職大聯盟，因為一定要是職棒聯盟來協助才有可能，我樂觀其成而且會全力促進。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然不只樂觀其成，還要全力促成，促成一個很大的部分就是今天要提到的運產條例第二十四條跟第二十六條的修法。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：2021年那時候大家一起共同推動，就是讓它有150%的優惠稅額，能夠來支持我們的運動產業，帶動整體的發展，那我請教兩、三年過去了，這幾年的帶動投入產業的金額、數量……"],["張廖次長萬堅：金額其實是在成長，不過到第二年已經到10億左右。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["張廖次長萬堅：到去年是11億左右，11億的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們的上限是多少？"],["張廖次長萬堅：上限是30億。"],["洪委員孟楷：30億嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：還沒用完。"],["洪委員孟楷：對啊！次長，所以這是為什麼我們提出來修法，這是環環相扣的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是我們希望有更高水準的比賽來我們臺灣，但另外一個部分，我們給予並讓這些企業支持運動產業的部分，我們有沒有可以再更鬆綁的空間或更加強的力道？因為2021年150%到現在，我們那時候設了30億的天花板，可是這兩年只有10億跟11億。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以距離那30億的天花板，我們還有20億的成長空間，那不能就想說沒關係，反正就150%，願者上鉤，要投就投，不投拉倒，所以本席以及今天不管藍、綠的委員也都有提出相關的修法版本，有的希望調高200%、250%等等，請教一下，因為今天教育部給我們的回復是涉及公平性，建議跟行政院版本併案討論，那什麼時候行政院版本會出來？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們兩個禮拜內會送行政院審查。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在已經有研議了？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，在審查。"],["洪委員孟楷：包括說可能討論到……"],["張廖次長萬堅：已經初步溝通過意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：到200%的時候可能會增加多少、250%會增加多少？因為每一個政策一定都會有邊際效應嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我可能到哪一個程度的時候是收益最高，譬如放寬到500%，說不定反而沒有250%來得效果好。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：這點您可以理解吧！"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想這是優先法案，我們在審查時候會聆聽委員的意見，至於說……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以兩個禮拜後會送行政院？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，行政院……"],["洪委員孟楷：行政院會不會很快的，還是要再交給財政部、其他等相關部會，甚至它有沒有辦法通過院版正式送到立法院，有信心在這個會期送出來嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我想一定會，因為行政院已經列為本會期的優先法案，所以我們一定會送進來跟委員的案併審，不管有沒有動的法條，我們都願意來聆聽委員的意見，做適時的修正。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以剛剛次長特別提到了，就是這個會期行政院運產條例第二十四條、第二十六條以及其他條文修正的院版會送進來立法院。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們再併案討論。"],["張廖次長萬堅：討論，對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們等你會期喔！"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個會期到531喔，只剩兩個月喔！"],["張廖次長萬堅：OK，沒有問題，我們來努力。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，突然間搖身一變，好像變院長的感覺了。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們來努力嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：那麼拍胸脯保證，我欣賞你的努力，我也希望真的能夠送進來，因為這樣子我們共同來討論。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：才可以真真正正幫助到我們運動產業，進一步築更大的夢，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對、對，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員質詢，官員請回座，謝謝。","我們接著繼續質詢，請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159493","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159493","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0d570694ab19c01ecb06f2ced2e0bc09030d2cd94d4d2e021e00a675d9541ec565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"13:18:58 - 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再次有請財政部長部長好 您辛苦了今天財政部來做夜報我看到也邀請了很多的公股行庫一起來所以我想跟部長重提原保地貸款這個議題"},{"start":33.53,"end":49.262,"text":"正好一年前我在這個質詢台上呢我有先拋磚引玉當時我說期待財政部可以提出更好的解方那當時我的想法是這樣公股帶頭乘坐來做政策性的專案貸款"},{"start":50.723,"end":75.158,"text":"那希望也能夠增加誘因好比呢如果願意乘坐元寶地董總的評鑑給予加分又或者參考紐西蘭的做法來為元寶地做一個建架系統跟特定的銀行合作給予部落應有的金融服務那當時呢謝謝我們的財政部長您呢給予我很好的一個回饋回應"},{"start":76.579,"end":94.341,"text":"那在五月份的時候您告訴我說我的這個建議很好那如果在相關的建架跟信用保證機制建立完備之後呢就會把它加入指標那我們來看一下關於原保地的建架系統"},{"start":95.682,"end":112.191,"text":"這個部分內政部已經有回函提到2025年的5月就會定稿那另外呢原民會他也做了一個信用保證的作業要點在2月的時候也已經含尋各公股銀庫"},{"start":113.812,"end":117.496,"text":"那在這個部分 當時呢 台銀的董事長我當時呢 呂董事長也特別問他有沒有困難如果要來承接這樣的一個業務董事長回答說 我們一定很樂意做"},{"start":128.849,"end":152.946,"text":"那又過了一年我在今年呢也順便問了土銀的何董事長那當時他也說只要原住民信用保證基金開始受理這些建樹那土銀一定會努力推動所以我今天來這邊就是想要請教一下部長您對於原保地貸款的相關進度有沒有掌握"},{"start":154.099,"end":173.685,"text":"是的謝謝委員我想剛剛您也提到就是原民會其實已經在8月7號去年的8月7號開了原住民保留地貸款信用保證作業要點的一個研商會議那這個目前原民會也正在研議這個相關的作業當中的本也就是信保機制的"},{"start":174.645,"end":202.882,"text":"那這個另外內政部也剛剛您提到這原保地建架的相關的一些準則以及東西都在做那我想在相關的條件被據之後那我們的公股行庫呢就可以根據他們的相關的金融法規以及受信的準則來做評估辦理那當然我們也希望就是原民會呢可以讓我們的原民的同胞們可以了解這方面公部門在做的一些努力是"},{"start":203.482,"end":219.753,"text":"好那部長事實上金管會的一個加分ESG加分在去年10月就已經回函給我已經列進去了我要講的是說我呢其實在上週有召開一個"},{"start":221.414,"end":238.606,"text":"元寶地貸款的辦理進度的協調會因為有點卡有點慢而且呢很麻煩的是我們好多的族人呢希望能夠脫離到地下這些所謂的貸款的方式現在詐騙也越來越多那債滾債越來越可怕"},{"start":241.488,"end":260.919,"text":"所以他們也都很關心所以我特別開了一個進度的一個協調會那我是跟中加兵委員一起召開啦也希望就是一週內呢能夠有一個回復的一個進度但是我今天來這邊就是要特別拜託部長齁我希望"},{"start":261.579,"end":281.125,"text":"部長您可以在一週內可以來提供我一個說明我希望您可以幫忙協調各公股行戶的辦理情形那我也希望說您能夠會同金管會如果是誘因不足再來研議一下獎勵的機制那部長您可以幫個忙嗎"},{"start":282.853,"end":288.637,"text":"我想委員這邊也提到就是我們就來照您委員這樣的一個建議我們來做處理非常感謝那謝謝我想在歷史的這樣的一個進程上面我們不會忘記財政部長也不會忘記我們的金管會主委為我們所做的努力更不會忘記各個銀行為我們原住民金融所做的一個邁向一大步的一個前進在這邊我就感謝大家謝謝"},{"start":311.894,"end":313.717,"text":"也謝謝主席委員的持續關注好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1508,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（13時19分）謝謝主席，再次有請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好，您辛苦了。今天財政部來做業報，我看到也邀請了很多公股行庫一起來，所以我想跟部長重提原保地貸款這個議題。正好一年前在這個質詢臺上，我有先拋磚引玉，當時我說期待財政部可以提出更好的解方，當時我的想法是這樣，公股帶頭承作來做政策性的專案貸款，希望也能夠增加誘因，好比如果願意承作原保地，董總的評鑑給予加分，又或者參考紐西蘭的作法，來為原保地做一個鑑價系統，跟特定的銀行合作，給予部落應有的金融服務，當時謝謝我們的財政部長給予了很好的回饋、回應，在5月份的時候您告訴我我的這個建議很好，如果在相關的鑑價跟信用保證機制建立完備之後，就會把它加入指標，那我們來看一下關於原保地的鑑價系統，這個部分內政部已經有回函提到2025年的5月就會定稿，另外，原民會也做了一個信用保證的作業要點，在2月的時候也已經函詢各公股行庫，我們當時也特別問了臺銀呂董事長如果要來承接這樣的一個業務有沒有困難，董事長回答說他們一定很樂意做，又過了一年，我在今年也順便問了土銀的何董事長，當時他也說只要原住民信用保證基金開始受理這些件數，土銀一定會努力推動。所以我今天來這邊就是想要請教一下部長，您對於原保地貸款的相關進度有沒有掌握？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，謝謝委員，我想剛剛您也提到，原民會其實已經在去年的8月7號開了原住民保留地貸款信用保證作業要點的研商會議，目前原民會也正在研議相關的作業當中，也就是信保機制的；另外，您剛剛也提到內政部對於原保地鑑價的相關的一些準則以及相關事項都在做，我想在相關的條件備具之後，我們的公股行庫就可以根據他們相關的金融法規以及授信準則來做評估辦理。當然我們也希望原民會可以讓原民同胞們了解公部門在這方面做的一些努力。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，部長，事實上金管會的ESG加分在去年10月就已經回函給我說已經列進去了，我要講的是，我其實在上週有召開一個原保地貸款辦理進度的協調會，因為有點卡、有點慢，而且很麻煩的是，我們好多的族人希望能夠脫離這些地下貸款的方式，現在詐騙也越來越多，債滾債，越來越可怕，所以他們也都很關心，所以我特別開了一個進度協調會，我是跟鍾佳濱委員一起召開，也希望一週內能夠有一個回復的進度，但是我今天來這邊就是要特別拜託部長，我希望部長可以在一週內提供我一個說明，我希望您可以幫忙協調各公股行庫的辦理情形，我也希望您能夠會同金管會，如果是誘因不足，再來研議一下獎勵的機制，部長可以幫個忙嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員這邊也有提到，我們就來照委員這樣的建議，我們來做處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：非常感謝，我想在歷史的進程上，我們不會忘記財政部長，也不會忘記金管會主委為我們所做的努力，更不會忘記各個銀行為我們原住民金融所做的邁向一大步的前進，在這邊感謝大家，謝謝主席。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的持續關注。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。","接著我們請徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩，徐欣瑩不在。","蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘、蔡易餘，蔡易餘不在。","今日登記發言的委員均已詢答完畢。","現在進行討論事項及臨時提案之修正共4案，請議事人員宣讀今日審查海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案提案內容及臨時提案共5案，預計宣讀時間10分鐘，宣讀完畢後，即刻進行協商。","和法案沒有關係的行政官員都可以先行離席，謝謝各位，辛苦了！大家安靜的離席，謝謝。","一、提案內容：","海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案（參閱附錄）：","第2章　肉及食用雜碎","修正　第02031919號及第02032919號等2項之第2欄稅率，修正巴拉圭（PY）適用之稅率。","第4章　乳製品；禽蛋；天然蜜；未列名食用動物產品","修正　第04090000號之第2欄稅率，修正巴拉圭（PY）適用之稅率。","第11章　製粉工業產品；麥芽；澱粉；菊糖；麵筋","修正　第11010010號之第2欄稅率，修正巴拉圭（PY）適用之稅率。","第16章　肉、魚類、甲殼類、軟體類、其他水產無脊椎動物或昆蟲等之調製品","修正　第16025020號之第2欄稅率，修正巴拉圭（PY）適用之稅率。","第19章　穀類、粉、澱粉或奶之調製食品；糕餅類食品","修正　第19059050號之第2欄稅率，修正巴拉圭（PY）適用之稅率。","第22章　飲料、酒類及醋","修正　第22071010號之第2欄稅率，修正巴拉圭（PY）適用之稅率。","第39章　塑膠及其製品","修正　第39233000號之第2欄稅率，修正巴拉圭（PY）適用之稅率。","第61章　針織或鉤針織之衣著及服飾附屬品","修正　第61071200號、第61082200號、第61159500號及第61159600號等4項之第2欄稅率，修正巴拉圭（PY）適用之稅率。","第62章　非針織及非鉤針織之衣著及服飾附屬品","修正　第62034210號、第62034220號、第62046210號及第62046220號等4項之第2欄稅率，修正巴拉圭（PY）適用之稅率。","第63章　其他製成紡織品；組合品；舊衣著及舊紡織品；破布","修正　第63079011號之第2欄稅率，修正巴拉圭（PY）適用之稅率。","第83章　雜項卑金屬製品","修正　第83099010號之第2欄稅率，修正巴拉圭（PY）適用之稅率。","第85章　電機與設備及其零件；錄音機及聲音重放機；電視影像、聲音記錄機及重放機；以及上述各物之零件及附件","修正　第85443000號之第2欄稅率，修正巴拉圭（PY）適用之稅率。","二、臨時提案：","1.","我國歷經三次重要的賦稅改革里程碑，分別於民國57年、76年及96年，由政府邀集專家學者組成「賦稅改革委員會」，針對租稅體制進行深入討論，並促成「優化賦稅結構（提高直接稅佔比）、強化公平合理的稅制、簡化稅政流程、提升行政效率」等重要成果。整體而言，平均約每二十年即進行檢討與前瞻性改革，以適應社會變遷與經濟發展需求。","查監察院於100年度專案調查研究報告中明確指出：「稅課是政府財政收入最穩健且充沛之來源，惟徵收稅捐是將民眾的私有財產依法作強制移轉，故需依賴良好且完整的稅制為其徵課法據；且隨經濟環境變遷、人民權利意識高漲，政府每經歷一段時間，勢須對整體稅制進行通盤的檢討，以求建立公平合理的租稅環境。」","有鑑於全國稅課收入已連年實徵數大於預算數、財政收支劃分法新制三讀。此外，社會各界對於印花稅、娛樂稅、貨物稅等稅目之適法性與時宜性多有檢討聲浪；同時，全球經濟變遷加劇，關稅、碳稅、營業稅及所得稅等稅制改善已成為影響國內民生與經濟發展的關鍵節點。此刻正值我國稅制亟需通盤檢討之際，爰請財政部敦促行政院於半年內盡速重啟召開「賦稅改革委員會」，廣邀專家學者共同研議，以回應國家發展與民眾需求，建構合理且健全之租稅體制。","提案人：黃珊珊　　林德福　　賴士葆","2.","有鑑於財政部新制將房屋租金支出改為特別扣除額，額度提高18萬元，單身租屋族最高可抵減7,000多元，家庭租屋族最多1萬2,290元，然而，台灣的租屋黑市仍相當嚴重，房客為避免租金調漲甚至是被退租的風險，不願冒險得罪房東。根據民間租屋網站所做的租屋狀況調查，有高達54.2%的租屋族因房東拒絕或是害怕遭受房東不利對待而無法使用租金抵稅，且尚有20.1%的租屋族甚至不知租金可以申報扣抵所得稅。爰提案要求財政部於三個月內設置「房客抵稅申訴專線」或「房客抵稅申訴專區」，並於一個月內向立法院財政委員會報告執行進度，同時公開至財政部官方網站，以便民眾知悉。","提案人：顏寬恒　　賴士葆　　林思銘　　黃珊珊","3.","案由：按現行加值型及非加值型營業稅法規定，每月銷售額超過20萬元者，國稅局將核定其使用統一發票，然此金額乃是按財政部民國75年7月12日台財稅第7526254號函文所訂定，已近40年未調整。民國75年基本工資為每月6,150元，同年11月1日起調整為每月6,900元，而基本時薪最早可追溯至81年8月13日，當年調整基本工資為每月12,365元，新增基本時薪為每小時51.5元，時至今日基本工資已為每月28,590元，基本時薪190元。鑑於基本工資及基本時薪已分別調漲了4.65倍及3.69倍，再加上水電雙漲、原物料成本飆漲、租金成本上升、勞健保支出增加等，在在增加營業成本，壓縮小規模營業人的利潤，實在苦不堪言。爰要求財政部考量消費者物價指數漲幅，研議調整營業人使用統一發票銷售額標準，以體恤小規模營業人的經營困境，並於兩個月內向立法院財政委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：羅明才　　李彥秀　　陳玉珍","4.","案由：鑑於小規模營業人導入行動支付適用營業稅租稅優惠1%至今（114）年底屆期，然根據台灣網路資訊中心「2024台灣網路報告」，國人行動支付使用率僅33.40%，與國發會「2025年行動支付普及率達90%」的目標有明顯差距，而且按財政部統計，2023年採用查定課徵的小規模營業人逾50萬家，但至今年1月底只有1萬9,321家導入行動支付，該租稅優惠顯然成效有限，爰要求財政部研議延長該租稅優惠期限，並提出精進作為，以增加營業人使用行動支付的意願，進而提升行動支付普及率，並於兩個月內向立法院財政委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：羅明才　　李彥秀　　陳玉珍"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159491","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159491","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0b7fe444a80d77e5eb06f2ced2e0bc09030d2cd94d4d2e021cd63afc3e7d0c2bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"13:13:01 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謝謝請莊部長"},{"start":26.964,"end":42.053,"text":"剛剛有委員問到美國財政部長自己講的就是說他列了15個骯髒國主要是針對其他國家如果被美國認為有關稅壁壘或者是有一些非關稅的障礙匯率操控等等他們將要來跟15個骯髒國來談判"},{"start":45.697,"end":61.174,"text":"那其中有提到說4月2號各國會提到一個數字這個數字就是代表美國認為這些國家應該要有的關稅數字但是美國也說他不會立刻就這樣實施他會來跟這些國家來談"},{"start":62.415,"end":78.544,"text":"所以為什麼很多委員會關注這件事情是因為媒體都已經爆成這個樣子了當然我們會很非常關心我們的財政部或相關的財經部會有沒有掌握這個狀況以及有因應之道所以部長你剛剛是說你是剛剛才知道這件事是不是"},{"start":79.929,"end":109.512,"text":"委員說明對於美國的相關的關稅的措施其實我們一直都非常緊密的一個關注那對於那天他對專訪美方財政部長的內容我們也都有看那至於說這個15個國家裡面是不是他也並沒有說是我們剛剛在查詢再去確認並沒有提到台灣是路透社他們是這樣子說所以我覺得這個部分我想應該要進一步的說明其實行政部門都持續非常密切的關注"},{"start":110.752,"end":125.637,"text":"所以你的意思是說這15個國家他目前沒有談到台灣那你有確定你是確定沒有還是不確定這15國裡面有沒有台灣是哪一個答案是確定沒有還是不確定有沒有台灣關務署署長再一次的再跟您說明"},{"start":127.817,"end":150.566,"text":"報告委員他的確有提到15國但是他沒有講15國是哪15國他只是說高關稅的那個報導我都有看到啦我現在是問說財政部掌握的狀況嘛你那個部長剛剛提到就是說沒有講到台灣所以你是很確定這15國沒有台灣還是說你不知道裡面有沒有包括台灣是哪一個不確定嘛所以台灣有可能是在其中嘛有可能嘛好那"},{"start":151.266,"end":164.338,"text":"那我現在就是要問說那我們財政部現在因應假設啦當然我們必須要料敵從寬嘛也不是算料敵從寬就是說我們要因應這個狀況假設我們被列為這個15國之一的話那我們現在做的準備是什麼"},{"start":165.906,"end":170.111,"text":"相關的準備第一個財政部已經對所有從美國進口或我們出口美國的貨物已經做全部做個盤點而且對這個前20大前30大都做過盤點同時行政院也有一個專案的工作小組對於各種模擬狀況都有去做相關的方案的研定你剛剛說有做盤點那盤點的目的是什麼"},{"start":188.89,"end":205.514,"text":"盤點的目的就是了解我們出口到美國的貨品哪一些的出口值是最高的前20前30那從美國進口的又是哪一些貨品它的出口值是在排在前面另外就是相關的稅率美國的稅率跟我們國內的稅率關稅稅率是多少這個都有做盤點盤點完之後所以要做什麼調整"},{"start":209.935,"end":227.216,"text":"做完盤點以後接下來我們這個部分相關的部會都參與行政院就相關部會都有參與行政院的一個工作小組這個部分都持續都在進行我現在在問你嘛你現在只是說有在做有在做我現在問的是說盤點完然後你要做什麼嗎你要做什麼調整嗎"},{"start":228.618,"end":253.378,"text":"這個調整的部分要他對應提出我們會再模擬各種方案還有對於我們不然我現在我跟你對話你都會回答說我沒有盤整我沒有開會問具體的人都講不出來這當然就會讓人家很擔心就是你可能會做很多paperwork可是你有沒有拿出一個實際上的對策出來至少在我的詢問我是聽不到我剛剛沒有聽到你講任何對策出來你只有講說我沒有盤點我沒有盤點我現在問的是對策部分"},{"start":256.54,"end":277.872,"text":"對策當然我們有各種方案有什麼啊包含經濟部跟相關的產業有進行的座談以及對於產業會遇到的困難你還是沒有講對策你還是沒有講對策你從頭到尾就是說我們有盤點我們有座談我們有什麼什麼什麼但是到底對策是什麼其實你會讓大家很擔心因為你講不出任何一個你只是說我有座談"},{"start":278.732,"end":287.62,"text":"我有盤點然後說妳的對策是什麼其實講不出來啊對策我們都有在做那什麼啊 什麼對策嘛我想這個我們的各種小體在區區都會在做是秘密不能講是不是還是怕講出來被監督所以不能講"},{"start":294.204,"end":320.516,"text":"不是不能講 什麼原因不能講現在問你說對策是什麼 為什麼不能講就相關具體的一些相關具體比如說美國對台灣這次做什麼樣的措施我們的對策就會有對策啊你完全都沒有回答到問題全部答非所問那我跟請教一下因為台灣現在大家都在討論說可不可以降貨戶稅美國的汽車要進來台灣的話它可能會先遇到關稅第二個遇到貨戶稅"},{"start":321.897,"end":333.971,"text":"那我現在不談關稅我現在講貨物稅為什麼因為我們對於美國的汽車或其他的產品課的貨物稅也會被它視為是其中一個貿易壁壘那財政部有沒有考慮針對貨物稅做一個通盤的檢討因為我自認為貨物稅它"},{"start":337.415,"end":353.236,"text":"它是一個非常久以前的稅而且當初是也有一點禦敬於苛是有點奢侈稅的概念就是叫你少買點東西你買這些東西的話我要苛你的稅讓你少買東西可是幾十年來現在工商社會已經完全不一樣了我們現在包括現在針對什麼飲料啊"},{"start":355.68,"end":370.416,"text":"然後還有什麼車輛 水泥都有在瞌睡那車輛有很多汽機車現在不是奢侈的東西這可能是大家有的人的必需品像有些人是以這個為工作為生什麼之類所以財政部要不要也將貨物稅做個通盤檢討貨物稅到底有沒有調降的機會"},{"start":375.563,"end":395.976,"text":"謝謝委員的說明那貨物稅的部分其實這個部分我們也持續都在做相關的一些檢討那您剛剛提到汽車的部分那汽車的部分我們的貨物稅現在對於老舊車換新車都有貨物稅的一個減徵那另外對於電動車的貨物稅都是免徵也就是說我們"},{"start":396.576,"end":423.719,"text":"透過貨物稅的一些相關的一些措施來引導民眾往這個節能減碳這個方向去走所以這個部分目前貨物稅是朝這樣的一個方向在做已經相關的比如說我們最近也會提出來有關的節能電器節能電器的部分它的效率比較能源效率高的部分那貨物稅也可以做一個減增這個部分都一直都在做的但是整體的全面的調降是不可能嘛對不對"},{"start":424.399,"end":448.488,"text":"整體全面當然要看我們也會因應整個社經發展的來做調整譬如說怎麼調整剛剛跟您已經說明了譬如說譬如說我們以車輛為舉例你的意思是說你要用調降貨物稅引導一些政策譬如說它如果改節能減碳或者改電動車你就調降貨物稅那我先說整體來說那其他的車輛"},{"start":452.079,"end":477.531,"text":"你沒有提到的這些電動車或者是以舊換新以外的其他的車輛你還是要維持貨物稅以這樣的方式來引導消費者的消費取向我剛就提到了就是說我認為貨物稅其實是一個不合時宜的稅因為它已經有點奢侈稅的概念有時候可能我買一台車它不是電動車但是那個也不是什麼奢侈品我就是拿來代步"},{"start":478.351,"end":491.041,"text":"或者是一個機車拿來帶鋪啊那那個帶鋪 買一個機車帶鋪車稱得上什麼奢侈呢為什麼要去跟他磕碎呢好像要欲盡於磕這已經不符時代的潮流了嘛"},{"start":493.104,"end":519.851,"text":"貨物稅並不是奢侈稅的概念有點那個概念啦有點那個概念早期的啦就早期那個時候是這樣跟娛樂稅一樣嘛就是叫你早做一些娛樂所以遇境於柯所以現在所以看電影也要柯稅去看藝文活動也要柯稅叫你最好不要去以前是這樣但現在不是這樣嘛現在是鼓勵你做藝文活動我們文化部還編列預算鼓勵你去啊結果鼓勵你去做這個動作然後你做了之後我還要跟你柯稅"},{"start":521.151,"end":528.22,"text":"這個是自相矛盾的稅啊我講的是這件事情啊對 娛樂稅我們已經提出那個修正版本了是OK 好 謝謝謝謝謝謝葉元之委員 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有請我們台電曾董事長曾董事長委員好董事長 午安好那我想這個河山廠二號機在今年五月要除役嘛那我想這個台電的這個河山廠的這個安全性後續能不能很重要董事長支持這樣的論調嗎一定一定啦那但是我也跟委員報告我們"},{"start":35.398,"end":39.486,"text":"那個火警之後我週末我就下去河山渡島了"},{"start":40.765,"end":68.799,"text":"那我想今天還是要再特別提醒一下董事長根據本席掌握的狀況我們在3月6號早上11點18分河山場發生火警之後縣政府是在7分鐘之後才接到我們的通報那當時第一時間我想我有打電話給廠長關心這個火災的狀況雖然是講起來是一個很小的一個火災但是對我們當地的鄉親造成很大的一個恐懼"},{"start":70.424,"end":94.891,"text":"那所以我們還是要提的部分我想現場前幾天也約見了我們河山廠的廠長他們特別要求針對這樣的一個救災的通報的SOP那我不曉得董事長這邊我們總共是我跟委員報告幾個事情第一個事情是我想我們的副總就許副總有親自去跟因為其實當天之後就有電話上面跟平庸縣政府做聯絡"},{"start":95.991,"end":111.887,"text":"事後也有去跟縣長致歉就是我們的同仁判斷這是一個就是他其實就是在廠房外一個水塔失火河山廠有自己的消防隊他們覺得自己可以解決就自己在那邊努力解決"},{"start":112.828,"end":127.615,"text":"通報這件事讓地方政府知道這件事其實是並行優先的所以我們也檢討我們的通報措施就是我們的通報措施其實類似這樣的一個狀況縱使河山廠自己有能力把火撲滅"},{"start":128.795,"end":143.437,"text":"也應該要通報主管機關因為無論如何地方的主管機關他有他的管轄權甚至有管轄義務尤其是對於我們的電廠來講我們應該要充分的告知地方主管機關這一點我們一定會檢討"},{"start":144.699,"end":171.079,"text":"董事長,我想雖然是很小的火災但是當一旦河山廠冒出黑煙這對他們的恐懼感真的很大真的不能等閒視之所以我想針對這個案子之後也希望我們總公司跟我們河山廠未來在處理之後一樣要建構這樣的一個通報體系不能這樣輕易的認為自己可以處理就自己處理啦這個後果沒有人可以承擔我們一定會加強改善"},{"start":172.369,"end":186.778,"text":"那董事長再請教一下就是針對河山場除役之後當然過去我們河山場對我們這個地方的基礎建設還有社會福利也扮演很重要的一個角色那後續在除役之後針對這樣一個回饋的一個機制是不是會受到影響"},{"start":188.151,"end":204.57,"text":"我們轉到那個核後端除疫就會依照除疫的辦法來進行原則上會照著這個辦法來做對這部分鄉親可能也比較擔心我想這個因為我們後續還是針對一個所謂的健康跟安全的考量"},{"start":205.03,"end":218.575,"text":"而且我們還有一些的一些相關的一些人力的設備都在那邊所以還是應該要持續做這樣一個安全的管控是的好謝謝那董事長請回那請一下我們何政次跟我們水利署長委員好"},{"start":229.685,"end":254.431,"text":"政事署長我想本期上任之後一直很關心我們大潮州人工湖的第二期的進度那我知道經濟部在去年有送到行政院但是11月份被行政院推薦那有幾個理由我覺得很離譜第一個就是沒有完成第一期的成效評估還有沒有完成所謂的環境影響差異的審查還有今年並沒有編列所謂本案的相關預算"},{"start":255.351,"end":283.324,"text":"那其中最離譜的是我們竟然是參酌民國92年的砂石量的一個計算基準用每立方公尺50元計算那目前南部地區政治資料目前現在一立方公尺多少錢嗎現在已經高達400塊到450塊了這相差很多倍啊那為什麼會有出現這樣子一個這麼嚴重的落差呢能不能說明一下好 我請我們那個署長來說明一下"},{"start":285.806,"end":312.979,"text":"報告委員那這個案件就是在去年年底的時候行政院這邊有大概初步的審議那就按照剛剛委員講的意見那請這個開發單位因為這個案件是屏東縣政府送出來那我們來合轉到行政院徵取預算那現在等於是送回請縣政府這邊再來加強評估尤其是效益的部分在上一次會議最關鍵就是效益評估的部分"},{"start":314.008,"end":336.087,"text":"那我想這點還是要特別拜託一下我們經濟部跟水利署我想這個水跟電尤其我們現在面臨很多這個產業的需求水跟電是不可或缺那尤其我們民生用水的部分大潮州軟工我是扮演一個很重要的角色我這點要請次長跟署長這邊幫忙那另外再請一下我們自然水公司李董事長"},{"start":339.634,"end":358.89,"text":"我想過去我們屏東縣的自來水普及率好不容易在去年突破了七成但是若依目前我們自來水的普及率的增加速度一年兩趴到三趴的速度我們還要再過十年屏東縣才可以趕得上全國的普及率這點真的是我們鄉親很懶惰"},{"start":362.233,"end":387.663,"text":"那我想站在經濟部的立場跟我們自來水公司的立場怎麼樣能夠強化這個自來水普及率的進度可不可以請說明一下好謝謝委員的指教那屏東縣普及率目前113年是71.65其實從106年到113年公司已經投入了將近100億在改善屏東縣的一個自來水的一個"},{"start":388.623,"end":416.497,"text":"普及的提升包括我們建置的淨水廠跟一些的沿管工程那水利署這邊也提到了沿管的計畫五期的計畫有100億左右5年那114年大概已經給屏東縣有9億那我們配合地方就是一些有需求的這些住戶來提出申請那水公司會提水利署這邊評比"},{"start":417.637,"end":442.745,"text":"那一年大概也有八九億的經費來投入在屏東縣這一塊的沿館董事長我知道你們很積極但是因為我們屏東縣這個府地遼闊這有時候我們那個評估的機制這個有些比較偏遠的鄉親真的要等到望眼欲穿這真的要很辛苦,要吃熱水很辛苦的是不是可以再增加一下預算跟速度一下這部分再拜託大家幫忙一下"},{"start":443.765,"end":465.851,"text":"我也順便跟委員報告一下其實在這個無自來水改善我們一年大概現在有21億在未來五年計畫光屏東這邊就佔了四成那我們現在水利署跟自來水公司都是全力在投入把集中活力就像委員所談的現在屏東的普及率偏低我們要趕快把它趕上來我想我們會來努力"},{"start":466.291,"end":490.874,"text":"好另外一個還是要提醒自家水公司針對這個管線維修的速度要快一點有個地方今天北省人工我們的那個開口契約的速度真的是太慢了這個根本報告這個我們公司有內部檢討那針對問題我們有提了一些改善的方案那應該不會再有發生尤其是偏鄉離島部分真的要加強這個開口契約的量能就拜託一下董事長這邊再關心一下好謝謝好謝謝那現在請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1360,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（13時3分）謝謝主席。有請台電曾董事長。"],["主席：曾董事長。"],["曾董事長文生：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：董事長午安。核三廠二號機在今年5月要除役，不過後續台電核三廠的安全性仍很重要，董事長支持這樣的論調嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：一定。"],["徐委員富癸：一定？"],["曾董事長文生：我也跟委員報告，在火警發生之後，周末我就下去核三督導了。"],["徐委員富癸：今天還是要再特別提醒一下董事長。根據本席所掌握的狀況，3月6日早上11點18分核三廠發生火警，縣政府在7分鐘之後才接到通報！第一時間我打電話給廠長關心火災的狀況，講起來雖然是一個很小的火災，還是給當地鄉親造成很大的恐懼。我想提到的一點是，前幾天我們也約見了核三廠廠長，並要求必須建立救災通報SOP，不曉得董事長及總公司……"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告幾件事情，我們的許副總有親自去，其實當天就以電話跟屏東縣政府聯絡，事後也有向縣長致歉。我們的同仁判斷，這其實是廠房外的一個水塔失火，核三廠自己有消防隊，他們覺得自己可以解決，於是就自己努力解決。不過通報讓地方政府知道這件事其實是並行優先的，所以我們也檢討通報措施，即類似這樣的狀況，縱使核三廠自己有能力把火撲滅，也應該要通報主管機關。無論如何，地方主管機關有其管轄權，甚至有管轄義務，尤其是對於我們電廠來講，應該充分告知地方主管機關，這一點我們一定會檢討。"],["徐委員富癸：董事長，這雖然是很小的火災，但是當核三廠冒出黑煙……"],["曾董事長文生：是的。"],["徐委員富癸：地方的恐懼感真的會很大，真的不能等閒視之！"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["徐委員富癸：針對這個案子，希望總公司跟核三廠在未來除役後，一樣要建構通報體系，不能輕易的認為自己可以處理就自己處理了，畢竟後果沒有人可以承擔！"],["曾董事長文生：我們一定會加強改善！"],["徐委員富癸：我再請教，過去核三廠對地方基礎建設及社會福利扮演著很重要的角色，在核三廠除役之後，後續的回饋機制是不是會受到影響？"],["曾董事長文生：一旦轉到核後端除役，就會依照除役辦法來進行，原則上會照著辦法來做。"],["徐委員富癸：對，這部分可能是鄉親比較擔心的。基於健康與安全考量，且相關的人力與設備都還在那邊，所以我認為還是應該要持續做好安全管控。"],["曾董事長文生：是的。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝，董事長請回。請何政次跟水利署署長。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：政次、署長好。本席上任之後一直很關心大潮州人工湖第二期進度，經濟部在去年送到行政院，但11月份被行政院退件，其中有幾個理由我覺得很離譜。第一個，沒有完成第一期的成效評估，還有沒有完成環境影響差異審查，且今年並沒有編列本案的相關預算。最離譜的是，竟然是參酌民國92年的沙石量計算基準，用每立方公尺50元來計算。政次知道目前南部地區一立方公尺多少錢嗎？現在已經高達400到450塊了，相差很多倍，為什麼會有這麼嚴重的落差？能不能說明一下？"],["何次長晉滄：我請署長來說明。"],["林代理署長元鵬：報告委員，在去年年底行政院針對該案做了初步審議，按剛剛委員所講請開發單位……因為該案是屏東縣政府送出來的，由我們核轉給行政院爭取預算。現在等於是送回請縣政府再加強評估，尤其是效益部分，上次會議最關鍵的就是效益評估。"],["徐委員富癸：我在這裡要特別拜託經濟部及水利署，對很多產業需求來說，水跟電是不可或缺的。尤其在民生用水部分，大潮州人工湖扮演了很重要的角色，所以要請次長跟署長幫忙。","另外，再請教自來水公司李董事長。屏東縣的自來水普及率好不容易在去年突破七成，但若依目前自來水普及率一年2%到3%的增加速度來看，屏東縣還要再過十年才可以趕得上全國的普及率，這點真的讓我們鄉親感到怨嘆！站在經濟部跟自來水公司的立場，怎麼樣才能夠強化自來水普及率的進度？可不可以請你說明一下？"],["李董事長嘉榮：謝謝委員指教。屏東縣的普及率在113年是71.65%，其實從106年到113年，本公司已經投入將近一百億來改善屏東縣自來水普及率的提升，包括建置淨水廠及延管工程。水利署也提報了延管計畫，目前五期計畫有一百億左右，分五年完成，114年大概已經給屏東縣9億。我們會配合地方，由有需求的住戶來提出申請，水公司將交給水利署評比，一年大概會有八、九億的經費投入屏東縣延管工程。"],["徐委員富癸：董事長，我知道你們很積極，有評估機制，不過屏東縣腹地遼闊，有時候讓一些比較偏遠的鄉親等到望眼欲穿，想喝口水都很辛苦。所以要再增加預算跟速度，也拜託大家幫忙。"],["李董事長嘉榮：好。"],["林代理署長元鵬：我也順便跟委員報告一下，針對無自來水改善，在未來五年計畫中一年大概有二十一億，其中屏東就占了四成。現在水利署跟自來水公司都全力投入、集中火力，如同委員所說屏東普及率偏低，所以我們要趕快把它趕上來，我想我們會來努力。"],["徐委員富癸：另外，我還要提醒自來水公司一點，也就是管線維修的速度要快一點，有些地方，民眾反映開口契約的速度真的太慢了。"],["李董事長嘉榮：跟委員報告，這點我們公司有內部檢討，也針對問題提了一些改善方案，應該不會再發生。"],["徐委員富癸：尤其偏鄉離島部分，真的要加強開口契約的量能，再拜託董事長再關心一下，謝謝。"],["李董事長嘉榮：是，我們會來檢討。"],["主席：現在請徐欣瑩委員詢答。徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","現在請蔡易餘委員詢答，蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","登記發言委員除不在場外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員羅智強、陳超明、林德福、牛煦庭、蔡易餘所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T13:01:34+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T13:09:41+08:00","duration":487,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.69659375,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.98721875,"end":11.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.332843750000002,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.442218750000002,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.817218750000002,"end":18.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.32284375,"end":57.642218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.89534375,"end":85.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.50721875,"end":92.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.27471875,"end":88.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.17721875000001,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.67471875000001,"end":112.95846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.33409375000001,"end":113.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.65034375,"end":113.95409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.66721875,"end":113.73471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.95409375000001,"end":143.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.97096875000001,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.88159375000001,"end":118.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.89846875,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.03346875000001,"end":119.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.16846875,"end":119.21909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.21909375000001,"end":119.28659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.97346875000001,"end":125.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.96409375000002,"end":130.99784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.99784375000002,"end":131.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.20846875,"end":133.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.46159375000002,"end":133.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.57971875,"end":133.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.70159375,"end":137.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.74784375000002,"end":137.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.54471875000002,"end":142.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.75534375,"end":151.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.75409375,"end":156.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.93909375,"end":157.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.30596875,"end":168.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.51096875000002,"end":176.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.98284375,"end":174.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.75471875000002,"end":175.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.59846875000002,"end":175.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.55596875,"end":179.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.96909375,"end":180.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.23909375000002,"end":184.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.33971875,"end":185.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.14971875,"end":201.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.07284375,"end":192.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.91596875000002,"end":196.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.21534375000002,"end":201.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.75471875000002,"end":202.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.95721875,"end":209.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.92221875,"end":210.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.10346875000002,"end":219.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.00534375,"end":229.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.92471875,"end":222.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.35846875000001,"end":226.59471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.59471875000003,"end":227.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.23971875,"end":255.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.27346875,"end":231.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.78846875000002,"end":267.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.44909375000003,"end":273.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.59159375,"end":274.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.64221875000004,"end":274.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.11034375,"end":283.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.40471875000003,"end":318.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.52596875,"end":288.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.91409375,"end"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本席邀請次長請次長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":23.35,"end":37.931,"text":"市長 本席從上一屆就提案希望可以訂定營養午餐的專訪這一屆也有很多委員提案基本上這已經是超越黨派的共同主張"},{"start":38.932,"end":57.378,"text":"這一個會期教育委員會也召開過公聽會 聆聽各界保衛的意見所以在這邊首先要來請教部長當時教育部表示草案已經送到行政院在審議所以首先請教進度如何"},{"start":58.198,"end":76.862,"text":"對我們在去年113年11月的時候送行政院然後因為那個審議過程中大概一個月之後那個我們立法院通過那個裁罰法那剛才我有跟委員說明就是說事實上目前這個學校營養午餐法還沒上路之前我們依據學校衛生法16條22條到23條之3事實上我們已經陸續根據委員的建議包括營養師的補助啦偏鄉中央廚房的補助啦這個是在各個項目所以本期要請教"},{"start":87.765,"end":109.838,"text":"你們從去年送 11月份送現在卡關卡在哪裡現在目前就是行政院認為營養午餐的這個事項是屬於地方制度事項那現在每年所均攤的每年所應該例行要補助的已經高達74億那修法如果要再增加的話目前算起來最少要27 26億多那大概會 哇 次長"},{"start":114.641,"end":143.08,"text":"我相信您啊也對教育就是非常的支持不管你在擔任民意代表或現在來擔任次長你都非常的支持我們的教育而且關心我們的孩子那但是如果剛剛陳如你所說的那我要在本席要再請教現在各個委員都提出也就是表示他已經是超越黨派的共同主張所以"},{"start":143.84,"end":172.023,"text":"你目前是否同意應該要設定專法來把關學校的營養午餐呢專法是超越黨派的精神讓孩子吃更好更安全那你同不同意設立專法但是中央跟地方的這個未來的地方採訪法之後地方要不要跟中央一起共同來負擔這個黨派還沒有達成共識所以我覺得這個誰跟你沒達成共識所謂的黨派誰反對啊"},{"start":172.563,"end":173.964,"text":"市長誰反對啊黨派還沒達成共識地方的縣市首長都是以各縣市的權益為最重要換句話說我們回歸到我們討論我們要把關我們的孩子吃的營養嘛"},{"start":196.736,"end":218.546,"text":"每年的74億加修法之後增加了26億如果照你這麼說那請教行政院版會不會在這個會前會不會送到立法院來會不會如果裁判法的影響沒有好好評估中央地方還沒有達成共識我們要怎麼去修法增加這個市長你這個說法讓我蠻訝異的我們今天在討論這個"},{"start":224.709,"end":244.622,"text":"專法你好好去審視接下來我要告訴你為什麼專法很重要監察院在上個月發布了新聞稿他針對於教育部沒有落實把關學校午餐餐點到今天沒有制定學校午餐專法這是監察院所提出"},{"start":245.663,"end":271.95,"text":"各級學校仍有公餐熱量超標供應水果類以及乳品類的食品份量不夠還有提供炸物以及魚肉類的半成品次數過多但影響了我們學童的健康發展所以市長在他這個監察院要求教育部必須要檢討改進"},{"start":273.991,"end":283.004,"text":"所以市長我們當然有一些屬於這個制度上的檢討我們一定會跟地方政府因為執行端在地方政府因為本席告訴你教育部雖然有學校午餐食物內容及營養基準"},{"start":288.772,"end":303.724,"text":"但是我們很清楚仍舊有很多的學校還是沒有符合到底是不清楚還是沒有辦法符合所以你們有教育部校園的這個食材登錄平台推動超過10年在這個推動當中你們的午餐資訊甚至有同一個餐點它的熱量它的差距非常的大"},{"start":312.992,"end":318.355,"text":"那等於是流域形式所以教育部你要怎麼樣去落實整個稽查制度呢我想這個部分我們會跟地方好好來談好你會繼續來繼續本席要告訴你為什麼專法這麼重要因為人力不足更是你一個重大原因因為你的午餐秘書啊大家都說是在吹工帝啊他也沒有家籍然後輪來輪去的好辛苦"},{"start":341.306,"end":351.542,"text":"好辛苦 這樣子的一個情況不斷的輪替而且1153從業人員薪資偏低造成了年輕人他不敢接所以部長這個務必要有專法來好好的來討論啊是嗎"},{"start":356.61,"end":364.917,"text":"其實在沒有修專法之前我們也不斷增加營養師的補助啦你講的那個人力你現在所說的你現在所說的是目前樣態它已經產生這個問題所以你要有精進方案啊我們就陸續來加但是這個經費要中央跟地方談所以必須要好好的去精進喔謝謝你最後一個課題我給你喔因為我今天有提案也就是那個運動署喔我們這個運動產業發展條例"},{"start":383.553,"end":390.561,"text":"本席所提第24條跟第26條它的目的就是可以擴大民間企業對於體育活動的一個參與所以次長在這裡署長在這裡你們有沒有版本有沒有論版這也是跨越超越"},{"start":400.471,"end":411.797,"text":"黨派 大家都提案我們這個已經列為優先法案目前 進度在哪裡體育署現在已經在開會在研商這個稅賦的部分坦白講還沒達成控制體育署在研商 請問進度這個近期會送來立法院嗎"},{"start":417.322,"end":443.841,"text":"包委員我們已經開始在審議在詢答了我們跟財政部這邊有做了初步的一個你們的KPI什麼時候可以送出來我們應該在最近這兩週會送到行政院來做審議兩週送到行政院因為我們非常的希望因為運動發展部呢我們力拼今年要上路大家全體一起來朝野的委員都已經提案行政院還沒有出來這個覺得"},{"start":446.294,"end":457.016,"text":"怪怪的那個法條其實只有一個是名稱的更動那我們就覺得說那個不管是怎麼樣我們的行政院應該要負責任啊沒有問題啦要有願板嘛這會期一定會送進來大家併審喔一起來所以要趕快加油我們期待願板趕快進來大家好好討論因為這個產業運動產業發展條例我認為對我們台灣來講的面向是非常的重要我想這部分我們會達成共識啦"},{"start":471.499,"end":479.085,"text":"你是全力支持嗎有全力支持全力支持啊 所以你速度要加快啊好嗎 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝楊卿瑩委員的質詢請官員回座 謝謝接下來繼續質詢請林倩琦委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1085,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時1分）謝謝主席，本席邀請次長。"],["主席：請次長備質詢，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長好。本席從上一屆就提案，希望可以訂定營養午餐專法，這一屆我們很多委員也有提案，基本上這已經是超越黨派的共同主張，這個會期教育委員會也召開過公聽會聆聽各界寶貴的意見。所以在這邊首先要來請教次長，當時教育部表示，草案已經送到行政院在審議，所以首先請教進度如何？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。我們在去年（113年）11月的時候送行政院，然後因為在審議過程中，大概一個月之後，我們立法院通過財劃法，剛才我也有跟委員說明，目前學校營養午餐法還沒上路之前，依據學校衛生法第十六條、第二十二條到第二十三條之三，事實上我們已經陸續根據委員的建議，提供包括營養師的補助、偏鄉中央廚房的補助、弱勢生的補助……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是在各個項目，所以本席要請教……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，已經有……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們從去年11月份送……"],["張廖次長萬堅：那就是卡在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在卡關卡在哪裡？"],["張廖次長萬堅：現在目前就是行政院認為，營養午餐這個事項是屬於地方自治的事項，現在每年所應該例行要補助的已經高達74億，如果要再修法增加的話，目前算起來最少要二十六億多，那大概會……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：哇！次長，我相信您也對教育非常的支持，不管你在擔任民意代表或是現在擔任次長，你都非常的支持我們的教育，而且關心我們的孩子。但是如果剛剛誠如你所說的，那本席要再請教，現在各個委員都提出法案，也就是表示它已經是超越黨派的共同主張……"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有問題，對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你目前是否同意應該要制定專法來把關學校的營養午餐呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：專法是超越黨派，其精神是讓孩子吃得更好、更安全，但是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你同不同意設立專法？"],["張廖次長萬堅：但是中央跟地方的……未來財劃法之後，地方要不要跟中央一起共同來負擔，這部分黨派還沒有達成共識，所以，我覺得這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：誰跟你沒達成共識，所謂的黨派，誰反對啊？"],["張廖次長萬堅：中央跟地方還要談……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長，誰反對啊？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，委員……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：黨派還沒達成共識？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員也當過臺中市副市長……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：地方的縣市首長……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們還沒去談，因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：都是以各縣市的權益為最重要，換句話說我們回歸到我們討論……"],["張廖次長萬堅：可是這個分攤的經費……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們要把關，讓我們的孩子吃得營養、吃得安全嘛，所以……"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，每年的74億加修法之後增加的26億……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果這麼說，那請教、請教……"],["張廖次長萬堅：有100億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果照你這麼說，那請教行政院版在這個會期會不會送到立法院來，會不會？"],["張廖次長萬堅：如果財劃法的影響沒有好好評估，中央、地方還沒有達成共識，我們要怎麼去去修法增加呢？誰要負擔？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：哇！次長，你這個說法讓我蠻訝異的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：不是，就是說這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：蠻訝異的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有、沒有，這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們今天在討論這個專法，你好好去省思。接下來我要告訴你為什麼專法很重要？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我知道專法很重要。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：監察院在上個月發布新聞稿，針對教育部沒有落實把關學校午餐餐點，到今天沒有制定學校午餐專法，監察院的新聞稿指出，各級學校仍有供餐熱量超標、供應水果類及乳品類的食品份量不夠、提供炸物及魚肉類半成品次數過多等，影響我們學童的健康發展，所以監察院要求教育部必須要檢討改進。次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。我們當然有些屬於制度上的檢討，我們一定會跟地方政府……因為執行端在地方政府，我們會好好地跟他們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席告訴你，教育部雖然訂有「學校午餐食物內容及營養基準」，但是我們很清楚，仍舊有很多的學校並不符合，到底是不清楚規範還是沒有辦法符合？你們教育部有校園食材登錄平臺，已推動超過10年，在推動的過程中，你們的午餐資訊甚至有同一個餐點的熱量差距非常大，等於是流於形式。請問教育部，你要怎麼樣去落實整個稽查制度呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個部分我們會跟地方好好來談，我想……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你會繼續。來，繼續本席要告訴你，為什麼專法這麼重要？因為人力不足更是你一個重大原因，關於你的午餐秘書，大家都說是在做功德，他也沒有加給，然後輪來輪去的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：有減課啦。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好辛苦、好辛苦，這樣的情況不斷的輪替，而且營養午餐從業人員薪資偏低，造成了年輕人他不敢接，所以，部長，此事務必要有專法來好好的討論，是嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實在沒有修專法之前，我們也不斷地增加營養師的補助，你講的那個人力，現在要求的編制是五百多，我們已經補……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你現在所說的是目前的樣態，它已經產生這個問題，所以你要有精進的方案，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我們就陸續來加，但是這個經費中央要跟地方談，財劃法之後，中央跟地方要談……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以必須要好好的去精進，謝謝你。","最後一個課題我給你，因為我今天有提案，也就是運動署。本席提案的運動產業發展條例第二十四條跟第二十六條，目的就是可以擴大民間企業對於體育活動的參與，今天次長在這裡，署長也在這裡，你們有沒有版本，有沒有院版？這也是超越黨派大家都提案的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：有，這個我們已經列為優先法案，目前體育署……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：列為優先法案，進度在哪裡？"],["張廖次長萬堅：體育署現在已經在開會研商，稅賦的部分坦白講還沒達成共識，其他的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：體育署在研商，請問進度為何？近期會送來立法院嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們在近期已經跟……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們已經開始在審議、在詢答了。"],["鄭署長世忠：我們也跟財政部這邊有做了初步的一個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們的KPI什麼時候可以送出來？告訴我答案。"],["鄭署長世忠：我們應該在最近這兩週會送到行政院來審議。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：兩週送到行政院。我們非常的希望……運動發展部我們力拼今年要上路，大家全體一起來，朝野的委員都已經提案，行政院版還沒有出來，這令人覺得怪怪的，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：那個法條其實只有一個是名稱的更動，那我們就覺得那個不需要，一個是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不管是怎麼樣，我們的行政院應該要負責任，要有院版嘛！對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有問題，我們這會期一定會送進來，大家併審一起來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以要趕快加油，我們期待院版趕快進來，大家好好討論……"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有問題，好，沒有問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為運動產業發展條例的這個面向我認為對我們臺灣來講非常的重要，一起加油……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我想這部分很容易達成共識。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你是全力支持嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：全力支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：全力支持，所以你速度要加快，好嗎？謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的質詢，請官員回座，謝謝。","接下來繼續質詢，請林倩綺委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra 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審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159487","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159487","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0fc3ef6c7782843a6b06f2ced2e0bc09030d2cd94d4d2e0213ff16b6b2a727ff65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:58:40 - 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謝謝主席我們讓部長先喝一口水好 有請財政部部長好 莊部長"},{"start":17.952,"end":36.713,"text":"我也好好 謝謝部長部長我今天要來問關於離島的問題不過今天關注的焦點主要在馬祖我先跟部長分享一個困境就是這幾年來海巡在馬祖積極查緝走私那這個相關的議題其實會影響到國人的食品安全"},{"start":37.633,"end":58.731,"text":"還有相關的議題所以茶器走私在前線非常的辛苦可是我們都希望這些商品不要進到台灣那在海巡茶走私之後呢相關的扣押品大部分都是需要冷凍倉庫那之前的做法呢是跟連江縣政府租用冷凍倉庫一年大概兩百萬那這樣子運行多年來狀況都還不錯"},{"start":62.714,"end":87.554,"text":"不管是海巡或者是跟海關這邊的配合可是呢後來不知道什麼原因現在這個租用倉庫的費用已經沒有了然後也已經停止租用所以導致於連江縣也就是在馬祖地區當地的海巡他們做這個查緝走私的動作之後呢相關的扣押品沒有地方擺那但是呢我們知道你們關務署的做法是說請送回基隆關"},{"start":89.316,"end":112.534,"text":"部長如果你去過連江你就可以想像這個不是只是把東西打包像宅急便送到基隆關而已這個可能要考慮到交通的問題天氣的問題然後還有跟基隆關這邊聯絡的問題所以下一張所以我們發現現在的問題就是根據關務署的規定海巡扣押的冷藏冷凍品要提前通知基隆關"},{"start":114.795,"end":140.423,"text":"來協調艙位的擺放在馬祖當地的特殊狀況遇到的問題就是因為要等候基隆關的協調船班的運輸通知等等這些行政配套我們在前線辛苦的海巡同仁冒著生命危險扣押這些東西可能就會腐壞那部長你可能想說反正是查緝走私扣押壞掉就壞掉了不是的他們後續可能會面對賠償的問題"},{"start":143.844,"end":151.751,"text":"所以這個問題其實很影響前線的海巡也好影響海關官務人員的工作狀態也好部長你知道這個狀態嗎"},{"start":154.252,"end":182.763,"text":"這個狀態好 我想 第一個我知道那個海關那邊的倉庫原來陳珠的倉庫他已經是 我剛說一年兩百萬本來是有的對 是 那我想這個部分是否可以請關務組署長來做說明好 那因為我時間有限我也要尊重主席是不是你就快速說明如果今天沒有辦法解決我們後續後續繼續在我們辦公室開協調會討論好不好來好的 跟委員報告這部分應該基隆關跟海巡那部分都有密切在聯繫啦那目前我"},{"start":184.079,"end":206.269,"text":"如果有必要的話我們再請委員這邊來召開協調會我們再過去說明一下好 那我跟你說有必要而且我希望不要只是說明因為這一次到了馬祖連江去我是直接聽到第一線基層的工作同仁他們直接跟我們反映他們真的希望有冷凍倉庫櫃擺放這些查緝走私扣押的漁獲商品"},{"start":206.889,"end":224.686,"text":"就這麼簡單但是不管是費用的問題不管是中間行政協調的問題我都認為我們可以細緻再討論我們希望可以在一個月內跟你們直接召開討論會議可以嗎好 沒有問題好 沒有問題那我們會積極召開好 謝謝這邊請回好啊 一分半我想要請賈董謝謝101的董事長 謝謝好 部長請回 謝謝好 謝謝主席"},{"start":236.104,"end":257.964,"text":"好 董事長午安 我時間有限董事長我之前來到這個財政委員會跟您討論不算是質詢 跟您討論那個時候我就說101它身為一個非常重要的機關它有可能性可以跟更多的兒少有接觸我目前有相關離島的業務在協助不管是在連江或者是金門那那個時候我們就談到"},{"start":259.025,"end":279.053,"text":"怎麼樣透過101的經費跟可能規劃的方案讓我們離島的鄉親尤其是兒少有機會透過101公益資源的協助他們可以直接進到101參觀也好參加活動體驗也好孩子們可以開視野孩子可以體驗到是平常可能沒有機會享受到的可不可以快速回應一下OK"},{"start":280.093,"end":293.762,"text":"其實101呢一直以來我們都有跟這個各學校的單位教育單位我們都有配合來董事長拜託離島的部分我們有沒有機會進一步來規劃跟討論可以啊離島的學校我們當然非常歡迎我們一直以來都有配合"},{"start":295.063,"end":319.27,"text":"謝謝董事長那我們相關的後續的討論跟規劃我們一起來努力進行我相信台上的主席一定也會認同主席一直都很照顧金門的鄉親好那就拜託董事長我們後續來規劃跟討論為離島的孩子爭取更多進入101不管是跟您互動或者是跟其他的人員互動或是到高樓看這個景象我們很願意謝謝謝謝董事長謝謝主席謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1407,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時58分）謝謝主席，有請財政部部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長。我今天要來問關於離島的問題，不過今天關注的焦點主要在馬祖。我先跟部長分享一個困境，就是這幾年來海巡積極在馬祖查緝走私，相關的議題其實會影響到國人的食品安全等等。在前線查緝走私非常辛苦，可是我們都希望這些商品不要進到臺灣。在海巡查走私之後，相關的扣押品大部分都需要冷凍倉庫，之前的做法是向連江縣租用冷凍倉庫，一年大概200萬，這樣子運行多年，狀況都還不錯，不管是海巡或者是和海關這邊的配合，可是後來不知道什麼原因，現在這個租用倉庫的費用已經沒有了，然後也已經停止租用，所以導致於連江縣，也就是在馬祖地區，當地海巡做這個查緝走私的動作之後，相關的扣押品沒有地方擺，我們知道關務署的作法是請送回基隆關。部長，如果你去過連江，你就可以想像，這不是把東西打包像宅急便那樣送到基隆關而已，可能要考慮到交通的問題、天氣的問題還有跟基隆關這邊聯絡的問題。所以我們發現現在的問題就是，根據關務署規定，海巡扣押冷藏冷凍品須提前通知基隆關，由其協調倉位擺放，但馬祖當地特殊狀況所遇到的問題是，因為要等候基隆關協調倉位、船班運輸、通知等等這些行政配套，我們在前線辛苦的海巡同仁冒著生命危險扣押的這些東西可能就會腐壞。部長可能想說反正是查緝走私所扣押的，壞掉就壞掉了，不是的，他們後續可能會面對賠償的問題，所以這個問題其實很影響前線的海巡也好，影響海關關務人員的工作狀態也好。部長，你知道這個狀態嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關這個狀態，第一個，我知道海關原來承租的倉庫已經……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，我剛剛說一年200萬，本來是有的。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我想這個部分是否可以請關務署署長來做說明？"],["陳委員培瑜：好，因為我時間有限，我也要尊重主席，是不是就快速說明，如果今天沒有辦法解決，後續繼續在我們辦公室開協調會來討論，好不好？"],["彭署長英偉：好的。跟委員報告，這個部分應該基隆關跟海巡那邊都有密切在聯繫，如果有必要的話，再請委員這邊來召開協調會，我們再過去說明一下。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我跟你說有必要，而且我希望不要只是說明，因為這一次到了馬祖連江去，我是直接聽到第一線基層工作同仁跟我們反映，他們真的希望有冷凍倉庫櫃來擺放這些查緝走私所扣押的漁貨商品，就這麼簡單，但是不管是費用的問題還是中間行政協調的問題，我都認為我們可以再做細緻的討論，我們希望可以在一個月內跟你們直接召開討論會議，可以嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：好，沒有問題。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒有問題，那我們會積極召開，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長及署長請回。","我還有一分半的發言時間，我想請101的賈董事長，謝謝。","董事長，午安，我時間有限。董事長，我之前來到財政委員會跟您討論，不算是質詢，是跟您討論，那個時候我就說101身為一個非常重要的機關，它有可能性可以跟更多的兒少有接觸，我目前有相關離島的業務在協助，不管是在連江或者是金門，那個時候我們就談到怎麼樣透過101的經費跟可能規劃的方案，讓我們離島的鄉親，尤其是兒少，有機會透過101公益資源的協助，他們可以直接進到101參觀也好、參加活動體驗也好，孩子們可以開視野，孩子們可以體驗到平常可能沒有機會享受到的，可不可以快速回應一下？"],["賈董事長永媫：OK，其實101一直以來都有跟各學校的單位、教育單位配合……"],["陳委員培瑜：我現在在講離島，董事長，拜託，離島的部分有沒有機會進一步來規劃跟討論？"],["賈董事長永媫：可以啊，離島的學校我們當然非常歡迎，我們一直以來都有配合。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝董事長，那麼相關後續的討論跟規劃，我們一起來努力進行。"],["賈董事長永媫：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：我相信臺上的主席一定也會認同，主席一直都很照顧金門的鄉親。"],["賈董事長永媫：是，一定。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那就拜託董事長，我們後續來規劃跟討論，為離島的孩子爭取更多進入101的機會，不管是跟您互動或者是跟其他的人員互動，或是到高樓看這個景象。"],["賈董事長永媫：可以，我們很願意。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝，謝謝董事長，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。","接著請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159486","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159486","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0cc9727ecd942ff2a56c3f89dc79e7a2530d2cd94d4d2e021d197f29790cd35605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:59:55 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廠商"},{"start":364.482,"end":392.444,"text":"部落或私人我們都能夠達到一個雙贏的地步也能夠共同的去完成我們政府國家定定的一個目標這樣可以嗎是的謝謝委員指教我們會來把他那我也希望說就是能夠在你們辦理地熱論壇之前能夠到我的辦公室我希望得到一個回覆是可以OK好謝謝市長謝謝署長謝謝主席謝謝委員好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1320,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時53分）謝謝主席。部長不在，請次長。"],["主席：請何次長。"],["何次長晉滄：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長好。關於地熱我在1月的時候有來到這裡做質詢，當時也是部長不在，改請次長。所以這個部分我再跟您重新表達一下我上次質詢的一個訴求。當時這位應該就不是你了嘛，他退休了。"],["何次長晉滄：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：當時是提到要做出一個行政指引，要有一個爭端的協調平臺，然後希望有政府投資、部落入股的觀念進來，也希望有一個地熱專區的試辦點、辦理公聽會，形成一種新型態的夥伴關係。今天看到你們的業報，再生能源發展條例已經新增了地熱專章，地熱能探勘與開發許可及管理辦法也已經公告施行，這裡面關於申請的一些條件也很清楚地寫著，在原住民族土地或部落的公有土地上，要有部落會議的相關文件。但我今天是來關心，因為現在我們看到有很多地方做地熱開發，他們選擇的是私有的原保地、私人的土地，所以就會有一些些意見、陳情、紛爭。時至今日，其實大家討論了那麼久，大家都承認地熱不屬於私人的地主，是屬於共享的資源，現在大家慢慢有這個觀念了，因為地熱不同於其他的能源開發。所以我想要請教一下次長，在這種沒有辦法突破現行私有地，我們要來踐行部落諮商同意機制這樣的一個狀況下，您認為有沒有什麼好的替代方案，可以讓我們在私有土地開發地熱的時候確保部落的權益？我想聽聽看次長您的看法。"],["何次長晉滄：報告委員，這個是按照原住民族基本法的規定，我是不是請我們李代理署長來跟您報告一下？"],["伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：好，我還是要強調，地熱很特別，它不屬於私人地主，大家都認為它是屬於共享的資源，所以我希望像這種私有地開發的部落知情同意權，必須要在地熱開發做出一個治理的模式，例如訂定部落契約，去處理這些可能發生的爭議。怎麼樣去指引廠商，在申請許可文件的時候要有這樣的一個部落契約，我想這個是希望達到三贏，有一點類似三方契約，因為公有土地是很明確的，要去廠商跟部落之間做諮商同意。但是這種私有地的，它的部落契約可能還要涉及到部落的知情同意權，我希望未來在這樣的開發模式上可以很清楚地提到，更何況是我們提到的部落入股，讓部落不僅僅是被動地提供土地接受開發，而是希望能夠建立一種新型態的夥伴關係。希望政府、廠商、部落或私人都能夠達到雙贏的地步，也能夠共同地去完成我們政府、國家訂定的目標，這樣可以嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：是的，謝謝委員指教，我們會把它納入考慮。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我也希望在你們辦理地熱論壇之前能夠到我的辦公室，我希望得到一個回復。"],["李代理署長君禮：是，可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝次長，謝謝署長，謝謝主席。"],["何次長晉滄：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們現在請牛煦庭委員詢答，牛煦庭委員，牛煦庭委員不在。","我們現在請羅明才委員詢答，羅明才委員，羅明才委員不在。","我們現在請葉元之委員詢答，葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","我們現在請林德福委員詢答，林德福委員，林德福委員不在。","我們現在請羅智強委員詢答，羅智強委員，羅智強委員不在。","我們現在請林思銘委員詢答，林思銘委員，林思銘委員不在。","我們現在請陳冠廷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T12:47:11+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T12:58:48+08:00","duration":697,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.12784375,"end":1.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.101593750000001,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.05034375,"end":12.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.67846875,"end":15.859718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.606593750000002,"end":72.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.84659375,"end":19.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.47534375000001,"end":72.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.61034375,"end":72.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.66096875000001,"end":72.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.79596875,"end":73.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.35284375,"end":74.33159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.67346875,"end":81.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.12784375000001,"end":91.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.55784375,"end":84.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.01284375,"end":89.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.37971875000001,"end":110.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.80409375,"end":101.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.87159375,"end":102.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.39471875000001,"end":102.41159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.84159375,"end":105.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.87034375,"end":113.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.36784375,"end":112.73909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.27909375,"end":115.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.02971875,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.10909375000001,"end":121.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.63596875,"end":125.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.41471875000002,"end":207.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.40784375,"end":207.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.66096875000002,"end":209.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":209.92221875,"end":211.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.49159375000002,"end":212.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.77409375000002,"end":214.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.12409375000001,"end":235.85909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.67096875000001,"end":225.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.70846875,"end":227.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.79284375,"end":227.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.82659375,"end":227.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.85159375,"end":230.42534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.70784375000002,"end":231.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.87221875,"end":234.61034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.85909375000003,"end":257.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.57721875000004,"end":262.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.17159375,"end":265.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.62284375,"end":267.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.09909375,"end":277.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.98409375,"end":273.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":274.51971875000004,"end":275.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.06784375,"end":279.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.41784375000003,"end":278.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.71721875000003,"end":282.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.88971875000004,"end":284.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.55596875000003,"end":285.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.72034375000004,"end":312.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.09596875,"end":346.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.59284375000004,"end":346.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.91346875000005,"end":365.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.32846875,"end":366.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.94846875,"end":374.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.41971875,"end":375.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.58409375,"end":379.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.58346875,"end":380.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.43534375,"end":382.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.45221875000004,"end":382.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.80659375000005,"end":382.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我請教育部張料辦兼次長請次長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":14.741,"end":37.334,"text":"好 謝謝委員好市長好 今天我們要進行兩個法的討論的詢問第一個就是學校午餐學校營養午餐法那這個法我想大家都很重視我也有提案那為什麼大家會開始重視呢因為孩子的食安健康跟營養就是我們都需要來協助家庭來支持孩子的"},{"start":37.674,"end":44.557,"text":"那台灣的營養午餐專法是落後日本已經好幾十年過去其實在很多的座談公聽會上面都有所討論目前我們是在學生衛生法學校衛生法當中有相關的條文訂定那我們現在期待的已經不只是學校的衛生還包括了食材的把關營養師人力的補充以及飲食教育的推動所以我們需要一部營養午餐專法"},{"start":65.327,"end":79.983,"text":"那剛剛也聽到次長說我們也有布板已經在朝你討論那我們希望說目前已經送院了送院一個月之後發生財化法的問題那因為布板裡面有很多都是會涉及到增加經費的問題是"},{"start":82.225,"end":89.629,"text":"那營養午餐又屬於地方自治權限規定所以這部分財務法通過之後會產生很大的衝擊這部分要再談 要跟地方政府再談所以我們希望說這一部專法現在已經抱怨了但是我們中央政府訂定法律都要跟地方政府來溝通討論因為畢竟營養午餐它的執行層面有太多都是在地方政府我們希望在溝通之後如果有一個共識的版本可以趕快送進立法院來大家一起討論"},{"start":110.179,"end":113.9,"text":"那部長日本的這個學校幾時法他是在哪一年訂定我們現在看到在1954年就訂定所以他時間上是非常的早那我想有一個模式其實也可以給我們台灣做參考就是日本的學校幾時會他這個學校幾時會是包括學校午餐用品的採購合約食材運送"},{"start":138.068,"end":162.401,"text":"儲存都有學校幾時會來處理所以在日本的每一個地方政府他47都府道縣都有學校幾時會那除了這個營養午餐之外呢他甚至我們在討論的在地食材他也會來例如說委託工廠客製化那以在地的食材來做適合學童的產品例如說呢"},{"start":163.582,"end":166.505,"text":"祁鈺縣他們有自製小麥嘛所以他們就有小麥跟豬肉做成的包子像福岡的幾十會他們就推出了他們現產大豆的醬油例如說京都的幾十會他們就來做他們京都的豬肉做成的可樂餅"},{"start":180.04,"end":209.443,"text":"所以我想這個都是特別為了孩子的營養還有口味來設計其實相當的貼心但是這樣的一個制度也已經在日本運作了70年當然台灣沒有辦法一觸可擊這個模式也沒有辦法直接移植過來但我想還是可以給我們做一些參考目前其實我們台灣對於例如說我們在偏鄉的學校我們教育部中央也是有補助中央廚房這個部分我們是補助多少錢"},{"start":210.003,"end":214.227,"text":"現在每年大概15億我們每年補助了15億運作15億是那在這個這個當時會有這樣的想法就是我們的張酷上路之後發現很多偏鄉的學校因為他的數量畢竟比較少所以經濟規模不夠運輸也會困難所以呢有我們中央還有教育部"},{"start":230.763,"end":256.867,"text":"跟農業部一起來協助這個偏鄉的學校做聯合的採購我跟委員說明一下從108年大家提出要用專法開始上路其實剛才委員所提到的包括交通的問題包括食材的問題廚房的問題其實都後來陸續發了像偏鄉的中央廚房大概花了60多億在109年到111年的時候設立了專案然後現在每年固定的就是說"},{"start":257.788,"end":283.315,"text":"補助他運作就是15億車子可以開交通任何所以15億只是每年的運作但是在前期的設備前期那個已經建制完成我們已經補助了63億那這個部分呢協助偏鄉的學校進行聯合採購然後以及整個食材的聯合供應甚至農業部也有來協助一餐62塊已經補助到62塊了能不能說明一下我目前協助的方式我想謝謝我們請署長來"},{"start":286.772,"end":312.22,"text":"在109年之後蓋廚房設225條路線然後補助車子除工訓練除工補助營養師補助100名等等那類似這樣當時花掉63億那111年之後因為它要運作所以我們是整套運作之後每年給15億相關剛才建制之後要運作的包含人的經費啦交通啦這些都把它處理"},{"start":313.52,"end":332.591,"text":"有關農業部這邊在張Q的這個協助上在協助各地的小農建置平台來讓張Q能夠在當地落實以致能夠提升比例的部分農業部也非常的努力所以在平地一般地區張Q補助10塊在偏鄉補助14塊這些都有助於讓他那個門檻比較高單價可能比較高的情況下他採購比較容易那為了讓小朋友每一餐能夠均衡所以我們把它補助到他繳多少不管"},{"start":341.896,"end":364.678,"text":"讓他可以吃到每餐62塊中間差額也是由中央政府來協助是我覺得我們過去在偏鄉的地區因為他很難單獨來進行食材的採購供應運送等等所以我們有一個聯合的方式建立了這個食材供應的平台其實是一個非常好的模式也可以更加的去鼓勵就是使用他所在地的食材當時就是參考那個日本那個模式"},{"start":366.26,"end":380.111,"text":"我想未來這個模式我們在跟地方政府討論的時候也可以盡量來鼓勵讓它可以擴及到更多的縣市來推行好不好好 謝謝委員的建議好 謝謝那接下來我要請體育署署長次長請回委員好"},{"start":382.961,"end":385.523,"text":"我們要討論運產條例這一次我有提案那我希望未來可以跟院本來併案來審查討論那主要三點第一點就是希望未來我們在捐贈我們在鼓勵企業捐贈職業業餘運動的付稅優惠能夠提升我們現行版本也有鼓勵是能夠抵這個稅多少"},{"start":409.464,"end":424.339,"text":"百分之一百五是盈利事業的部分現行是一百五是那我們未來有沒有機會再往上來提升包委員這部分我們目前在因為我們整個政府是一體的我們在行政院裡面我們跟財政部以及我們院內呢"},{"start":425.44,"end":427.101,"text":"還正在討論那我們在近期會提出一個願板然後再來我們委員會的時候來做一個審議鼓勵企業來捐贈我們的運動項目這個現行能夠扣除150這個也是2021年的修法所以我希望我們這次既然要修法了"},{"start":440.646,"end":445.289,"text":"當然要往上提升那我們希望目標剛剛林執委也提了是能夠來提升到250%我們一起來努力也會提到我的版本當中第二點就是我認為要新增一個項目除了職業業與運動之外我們也要鼓勵如果企業他是捐贈我們房賭基金這也是去年我們一起修法通過的嘛"},{"start":460.299,"end":469.427,"text":"希望能夠來推動政府要輔導推動防堵的工作那就是要成立防堵基金那如果企業他願意捐贈給我們防堵基金我認為我們應該也要有相關的這個租稅的優惠來進行鼓勵第三點呢我們運動產業應當要去比照文化產業來輔導企業可以投資"},{"start":483.28,"end":490.504,"text":"相關的措施我們現行的法規我看了一下我覺得主要集中在融資但投資其實相當重要其實很多企業願意投資但是他不知道什麼樣的團體需要適合什麼樣的模式這部分署長有什麼樣的想法報告委員其實這部分我們目前在運動部整個籌備過程行政院的行政委員都有提到"},{"start":503.212,"end":521.953,"text":"我們也是往這個方向在努力當中不過我們最近也是跟國發會這邊也來在細談因為他依照他們過去的對文化相關的這些的協助啦經濟相關的協助那我們這細節我們還在院內還在做一個統整那我們也是希望往這個方向來努力看看"},{"start":522.213,"end":545.466,"text":"好那接下來呢是我們運動部要成立嗎在討論當中其中很重要的一點就是全民運動討論到全民運動就會討論到俱樂部那我看了一下過去我們體育署對於俱樂部的輔導大多是透過協會很少有直接但是我們成立運動部最重要就是希望競技運動也要全民化所以未來我們針對俱樂部的運動的輔導預計用什麼樣的方式"},{"start":549.969,"end":575.202,"text":"包委員我想這部分最重要一點其實就是希望把產業的部分的概念把它引進進來當然我們很多的方法包括像我們面臨這個俱樂部推動我們過去有檢討過比較遭的比較遇到的麻煩第一個就是我們專業的這部分能力營運能力這部分是有問題的不足第二個我們的社區的設施的確"},{"start":576.202,"end":587.37,"text":"還不夠那再來是我們的這個社區俱樂部他的整個內容其實是比較不夠豐富所以我們接下來第一個當然我們去盤點開發透過公建計畫或是校園開放等等我們來增加整個社區可以使用的場館第二個我們希望引進一些基層的運動事業能夠進來跟校方這邊來或是跟"},{"start":598.457,"end":612.524,"text":"校外的這些設施來做承租那機制我們現在研擬第三個當然就是我們講最重要的是它的內容我們希望聯賽的部分而不是一次性的活動就結束掉了大家往這個方向來推好我同樣有三點建議第一點就是我剛講我認為未來運動部對俱樂部運動集團體應該要直接輔導然後第二點因為俱樂部現行有非常多不同的性質有的是社區有的是商業的有的是成人有的是兒少的"},{"start":623.869,"end":629.39,"text":"所以不同的俱樂部團體可能需要不同的幫助你們要納入它的差異化那第三點就是剛剛署長也有提到場地場地非常重要有場地才有運動發展所以呢因為去年我開過一個座談會署長來參加嘛當時我要求你們這個滑板的場地要持續增加你們後來回覆給我說已經有在規劃新北汐止的白袍五色宅它也是一個運動休閒園區當中你們就會新設一個這個滑板場"},{"start":651.235,"end":670.284,"text":"那目前這個計劃進度怎麼樣因為我聽說預算也遭到困難八號委員目前的規劃是還有滑板但是至於整個的這個案子呢是內政部在主導所以案子繼續走還是怎麼樣這個部分我沒有辦法回答好你們要持續去關心好不好那只有一處也是不夠的"},{"start":671.044,"end":687.335,"text":"主長我們去年在這裡討論了嘛說上一次的奧運大家說日本的滑板場地練習場社區的跟國際標準都那麼多台灣的實在太少所以還是要持續的包括新北包括台北各縣市持續跟地方政府討論只要他們願意規劃滑板場我們就來給予支持好不好給滑板這邊來處理這個有好謝謝主長謝謝主席謝謝吳佩儀委員質詢官員請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1016,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（12時47分）謝謝主席，我請教育部張廖萬堅次長。"],["主席：請次長備詢，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝，委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：次長好。今天我們要進行兩個法的討論、詢答，第一個就是學校營養午餐法，我想大家都很重視這個法，我也有提案，為什麼大家會開始重視呢？因為孩子的食安健康跟營養是需要我們協助家庭來支持孩子的，臺灣的營養午餐專法落後日本已經好幾十年，過去其實在很多的座談會、公聽會上面都有所討論，目前我們在學校衛生法當中有相關的條文訂定，但我們現在期待的已經不只是學校的衛生，還包括了食材的把關、營養師人力的補充，以及飲食教育的推動，所以我們需要一部營養午餐專法。剛剛也聽到次長說，已經有部版在草擬討論，我們希望……"],["張廖次長萬堅：目前已經送院了。"],["吳委員沛憶：已經送院了？"],["張廖次長萬堅：送院一個月之後發生財劃法的問題，因為部版裡面有很多涉及增加經費的問題。"],["吳委員沛憶：是。"],["張廖次長萬堅：營養午餐又屬於地方自治權限規定，所以財劃法通過之後會產生很大的衝擊，這部分要跟地方政府再談。"],["吳委員沛憶：當然，所以這一部專法現在已經報院了，但是中央政府訂定法律都要跟地方政府溝通討論，畢竟營養午餐的執行層面有太多都是在地方政府，我們希望在溝通之後如果有一個共識的版本可以趕快送進立法院，大家一起來討論。"],["張廖次長萬堅：除了版本共識之外，經費分攤的部分也要有共識。"],["吳委員沛憶：是。部長，日本的學校給食法，它是在哪一年訂定的？我們看到他們在1954年就訂定，時間非常的早，其實有一個模式可以給我們臺灣做參考，就是日本的學校給食會，學校給食會包括學校午餐用品的採購、合約、食材運送、儲存都由學校給食會來處理，所以在日本的每一個地方政府，47個都道府縣都有學校給食會，除了營養午餐之外，甚至我們討論的在地食材，他們也會委託工廠客製化，以在地食材來做適合學童的產品，例如埼玉縣有自製小麥，所以他們就有小麥跟豬肉做成的包子；福岡的給食會就推出了他們縣產大豆的醬油；京都的給食會就用他們京都的豬肉做成可樂餅，這都是特別為了孩子的營養還有口味而設計，相當的貼心，但是這樣的制度也已經在日本運作了70年，臺灣當然沒有辦法一蹴可幾，這個模式也沒有辦法直接移植過來，但我想還是可以給我們做一些參考。","目前我們臺灣對於偏鄉學校，中央的教育部也有補助中央廚房，這部分是補助多少錢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：現在每年大概15億。"],["吳委員沛憶：每年補助了15億？"],["張廖次長萬堅：運作15億元。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，當時會有這樣的想法，就是我們的「章Q」上路之後發現很多偏鄉學校，因為他們數量畢竟比較少，經濟規模不夠，運輸也困難，所以由中央的教育部跟農業部一起來協助這些偏鄉學校做聯合採購。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我跟委員說明一下，108年開始提出專法上路，剛才委員所提到的，包括交通的問題、食材的問題、廚房的問題，偏鄉的中央廚房大概花了六十多億，109年到111年的時候設立了專案，現在每年固定補助他們運作15億，車子可以開，交通費補助……"],["吳委員沛憶：所以15億只是每年的運作……"],["張廖次長萬堅：每年固定。"],["吳委員沛憶：但是前期的設備，我們已經……"],["張廖次長萬堅：前期已經建置完成。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們已經補助了……"],["張廖次長萬堅：花了63億的樣子。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，協助偏鄉學校進行聯合採購，以及食材聯合供應偏鄉，甚至農業部也有協助。"],["張廖次長萬堅：一餐62塊。"],["吳委員沛憶：是。"],["張廖次長萬堅：已經補助到62塊了。"],["吳委員沛憶：能不能說明一下目前協助的方式？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝，我們請署長來說明。"],["彭署長富源：在109年之後蓋廚房，設225條路線，然後補助車子、廚工訓練、廚工補助、營養師補助100名等等，類似這樣，當時花掉了63億。111年之後因為要運作，所以我們是整套運作之後，每年給15億，像剛才提到的，建置之後要運作的，包含人的經費、交通，這些都把它處理。","有關農業部在「章Q」的協助上，協助各地的小農建置平臺，讓「章Q」能夠在當地落實，以致能夠提升比例，農業部也非常的努力，所以在平地一般地區，「章Q」補助10塊，在偏鄉補助14塊，這些都有助於在門檻比較高、單價可能比較高的情況下，讓他們採購比較容易。為了讓小朋友每餐能夠均衡，不管他們繳多少，我們補助到都讓他們可以吃到每餐62塊，中間差額也是由中央政府來協助。"],["吳委員沛憶：我覺得過去偏鄉地區因為很難單獨進行食材的採購、供應、運送等等，所以有一個聯合的方式，建立了食材供應的平臺，這其實是一個非常好的模式，也可以更加鼓勵他們使用所在地的食材……"],["張廖次長萬堅：當時就是參考日本那個模式。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，對於未來的模式，你們跟地方政府討論的時候也可以儘量鼓勵，讓它可以擴及到更多的縣市來推行，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝委員的建議。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。接下來我要請體育署署長，次長請回。","署長，我們要討論運產條例，這次我有提案，我希望未來可以跟院版併案來審查討論。主要有三點，第一點就是希望未來在鼓勵企業捐贈職業或業餘運動的賦稅優惠能夠提升，我們現行版本也有鼓勵，是能夠抵稅多少？"],["鄭署長世忠：150%是營利事業的部分。"],["吳委員沛憶：現行是150%？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：未來有沒有機會再往上提升？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，因為我們整個政府是一體的，在行政院裡面，財政部跟我們院內還正在討論，我們在近期會提出一個院版，再到委員會做審議。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，鼓勵企業捐贈我們的運動項目，現行能夠扣除150%，這個也是2021年的修法，所以我希望我們這次既然要修法了，當然要往上提升，我們希望的目標，剛剛林宜瑾委員也提了，希望能夠提升到250%，我們一起來努力，這也會提到我的版本當中。","第二點就是我認為要新增一個項目，除了職業或業餘運動之外，我們也要鼓勵，如果企業是捐贈防賭基金，這也是去年我們一起修法通過的，希望能夠推動，政府要輔導推動防賭的工作，那就是要成立防賭基金，如果企業願意捐贈給我們防賭基金，我認為我們應該也要有相關租稅的優惠來進行鼓勵。第三點，我們運動產業應當要去比照文化產業來輔導企業可以投資的相關措施，現行的法規，我看了一下，我覺得主要集中在融資，但投資其實相當重要，其實很多企業願意投資，但是它不知道什麼樣的團體需要、適合什麼樣的模式，這部分署長有什麼樣的想法？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，其實這部分，我們目前在運動部整個籌備過程，行政院諮詢委員也都有提到，我們也是往這個方向在努力當中，不過我們最近跟國發會這邊也還在細談，因為依照他們過去對文化相關的協助、經濟相關的協助，這些細節院內還在做一些統整，我們也是希望往這個方向來努力看看。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，接下來是我們運動部要成立嘛，在討論當中，其中很重要的一點就是全民運動，討論到全民運動就會討論到俱樂部。我看了一下過去體育署對於俱樂部的輔導，大多是透過協會，很少有直接輔導，但是我們成立運動部最重要的就是希望競技運動也要全民化，所以未來針對俱樂部運動的輔導，預計用什麼樣的方式？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我想這部分最重要一點，其實就是希望把產業的概念引進來，當然我們很多的方法，包括像面臨俱樂部推動，我們過去有檢討過，比較會遇到的麻煩，第一個，我們這部分的專業人力、營運能力是有問題的，不足；第二個，我們社區的設施的確還不夠；再來是我們社區俱樂部的整個內容其實是比較不夠豐富。所以我們接下來第一個，當然我們去盤點開發，透過公建計畫或是校園開放等等，我們來增加整個社區可以使用的場館；第二個，我們希望引進一些基層的運動事業能夠進來校方這邊，或是跟校外的這些設施來做承租，有關機制的部分，我們正在研擬；第三個，我們講最重要的是它的內容，我們希望用聯賽的部分，而不是一次性的活動就結束掉了，大概往這個方向來推進。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。我同樣有三點建議，第一點，就是我剛剛講的，我認為未來運動部對俱樂部運動及團體應該要直接輔導。第二點，因為俱樂部現行有非常多不同的性質，有的是社區，有的是商業的，有的是成人，有的是兒少的，所以不同的俱樂部團體可能需要不同的幫助，我們要納入它的差異化。第三點，就是剛剛署長也有提到的場地，場地非常重要，有場地才有運動發展，因為去年我開過一個座談會，署長有來參加，當時我要求你們滑板的場地要持續增加，你們後來回復給我已經有在規劃新北汐止的白匏湖社宅，它也是一個運動休閒園區，當中你們就會新設一個滑板場，目前這個計畫進度怎麼樣？因為我聽說預算也遭到困難。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，目前的規劃是還有滑板，但是至於整個的案子是內政部在主導，所以案子繼續走還是怎麼樣，這個部分我沒有辦法回答。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，你們要持續去關心，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：只有一處也是不夠的。署長，我們去年在這裡討論了，上一次的奧運，大家說日本的滑板場地、練習場，社區的跟國際標準都那麼多，臺灣的實在太少，所以還是要持續的跟地方政府討論，包括新北，包括臺北、各縣市，只要他們願意規劃滑板場，我們就來給予支持，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這邊有控留經費給滑板這邊來處理，這個有。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝署長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員質詢，官員請回座。","現在處理臨時提案，今天有委員提出臨時提案計1案，請宣讀。","鑒於國訓中心目前即將正式啟動三期整建工程，其中有關網球場地之興建部分，現係以戶外硬地5面、風雨球場人工草皮4面之方式進行規劃。惟查訪各國國訓中心與國家網球訓練基地之規劃，幾無類似之設計，另經詢問國內數位菁英網球員，亦點出此種設計如遇雨天，硬地（紅土）備賽需求之選手即無法利用風雨球場相關訓練資源以及運科器材，更失去風雨球場存在用意。為讓設置的場地運用極大化，讓軟網、硬網選手在有訓練需要時都能使用，避免國家珍貴運動資源之硬體建設無法充分利用問題。","爰請體育署於一個月內邀請國內菁英網球運動員提供對於設施興建之建議，必要時援引楠梓足球場變更設計之經驗，盡速完成相關設計調整。","提案人：陳培瑜　　郭昱晴　　張雅琳　　吳沛憶　　林宜瑾　　范　雲"],["主席：謝謝。請問提案委員或在場各位委員有無補充說明？"],["吳委員沛憶：這個提案就是因為國訓中心即將要三期整建，它的網球場地目前室內跟戶外的規劃是不一樣的，我們希望國訓中心是不是可以跟選手有更多的溝通跟討論，讓未來我們的場地是更適合他們進行練習的。"],["主席：請問次長或官員有無補充說明？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我來說明，就是在第二段的部分應該是請國訓中心，因為它是行政法人，而且已經動工了，當天是我去的。對於內容的部分，最後一段建議修正為「爰請國訓中心……」，然後倒數第二句「必要時援引楠梓足球場變更設計……」這個部分我們建議保留，讓他們去開會研議決定，好不好？這一句就刪除，其他的我們就照辦。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有問題。"],["主席：請問提案委員或在場各位委員還有沒有其他問題或意見？"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有。"],["主席：好，謝謝。如果沒有意見，我們就照案修正通過。","我們接著繼續進行質詢，有請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159483","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159483","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb00611aa23ab2aa13bb06f2ced2e0bc0906c2779210393a151062fd125beb3cbaa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"12:48:56 - 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有請財政部莊部長還有兆豐金控董董事長"},{"start":15.732,"end":39.722,"text":"趙鋒金控的董董事長為什麼會請趙鋒金控董董事長跟部長呢因為今天下午央行開你今天是會兩位都是理事兩位都是理事嘛那對於這個今天媒體有報導說第七波打房我們有大型行庫出現這個虧本做房貸會衝擊盈餘也會產生建價的問題"},{"start":43.524,"end":67.725,"text":"三大警訊希望央行不要再加碼第八波請問兩位你們下午開會的時候你們立場是怎麼樣請問部長跟委員報告下午會開會然後央行會做充分的一些資料的一些討論資料的一個呈現這邊寫這個銀行高大型行庫的高層是這樣的呼籲"},{"start":69.059,"end":76.231,"text":"那是代表說我們國有銀行所有共同的聲音嗎這可能我問一下董董董事長"},{"start":78.671,"end":103.311,"text":"您也是理事,您的看法呢?報告委員,我想那是報導上,那應該不是我所知道的三個語音存在嗎?應該不會,因為過去這段時間我們對所有這些房地產業者我們總的這個不管是受訓的餘額啦,或者是他的真正的使用狀況這個額度跟餘額都在降低"},{"start":103.951,"end":122.28,"text":"所以這個三大警訊不存在對 我們利率是增加 利率是上漲做房貸是虧本的然後盈餘也會降低沒有 我們利率是上漲 我們利率是調升的所以不存在是三大警訊我覺得這至少不是我所知道的關股我相信您專業的判斷跟專業的評估"},{"start":125.461,"end":152.938,"text":"好 謝謝我想這個我跟這個總務長說明報告我的感覺這個十幾年來在立法院我看到很多這個我們國有銀行公有行股所有的這個董事長跟總經理都非常兼兼業業所以這個台灣的這個國有銀行可以說是這個另外一種的護國群山是扮演這個台灣經濟穩定的力量"},{"start":154.851,"end":176.626,"text":"所以這點是應當值得這個大家去鼓勵會或者去讚賞我碰到很多這個神祖堂戶的所有的這個董事長跟總經理包括台灣監控林董事長包括當然這個董內斌董事長第一監控邱瑞琴董事長"},{"start":179.417,"end":194.648,"text":"包括華人銀行黃黃總經理和合庫的這個民營衛冒董事長蘇佐敦總經理還有張營、胡光華董事長跟周總經理這一過程我都有跟他們互動民意代表會接受民眾的陳情"},{"start":195.888,"end":222.647,"text":"民眾發生問題他們沒有視他管道我們做一個平台我們很樂意去協助問題但最重要的是說我們這個省屬銀行的這些不管是董事長或者是總經理都非常親民非常了解這民眾的需求所以這個台灣省屬銀行是金融界的模範生之外也是扮演台灣經濟穩定的最重要的力量您同意嗎有錯"},{"start":225.373,"end":246.349,"text":"反過來說呢 台灣對台灣經濟最不穩定的亂源是來自哪裡來自於這裡這裡來自於立法院 您同意嗎這個沒有辦法置評會後我們再討論我認為是這樣子 發臨五百萬改才發完五百萬修 創咖咪咪冒冒"},{"start":255.704,"end":279.935,"text":"國家財政距離 國家財政穩定 都受到一些影響這是台灣經濟最大的威脅跟亂演Here Here Here講到這個 我的滿肚子火我們希望在這個最穩定的亂演之中 扮演一些穩定的力量好 我請台北金融大樓股運有限公司 賈董事長"},{"start":281.291,"end":303.298,"text":"台灣鷹酒國營綜藝術公司 湯董次長請 請阿董跟湯董董事長 我要請教 這個去年的EPS多少去年的EPS多少您好 我們是20算42024的EPS多少4EPS4啊"},{"start":308.991,"end":328.264,"text":"你確定?ELTS是1.75,對不起EPS是4啊?1.75,抱歉4跟1.75差蠻多的耶好,抱歉如果你可以一下子重複到4,你可以得諾貝爾經濟學獎是嘛齁?是2025在你主任之下1.75,你剛剛也講錯了我是你的話來...跟你的話,你聽說是1.75"},{"start":335.751,"end":362.032,"text":"那1.75是比1.51還好就是說你上任之後這個你什麼時候接任的9月9月好這個去年2023是1.51你到你接任之後1.752025的時候呢您就是今年您的期許呢我的期許啊我的期許就是越來越好就是要就是要打破就是那個2024的紀錄達到4"},{"start":367.158,"end":388.864,"text":"好,有2就好啦,我就對你覺得非常感謝,而且對你非常肯定好,謝謝,謝謝蔣董事長接著,請教一下那個湯董事長董事長,這個我一樣的問題請教你啊這個煙酒公司有它的問題,你覺得在你上任之後,必須要最急迫解決的問題是什麼?"},{"start":390.546,"end":419.171,"text":"加熱源要通過加熱源要通過加熱源要通過不是我的業務是衛環委員會衛福部的這個部分每個人都有不同的看法那你的EPS你的績效去年的EPS多少大概一塊錢去年一塊錢一塊錢那你上任之後你覺得你今年的目標呢向上提升也是要到市是不是"},{"start":420.644,"end":427.51,"text":"這個是我們的目標你還是可以得到諾貝爾經濟學獎最後一個30秒的問題謝謝 謝謝兩位董事長這個關務署關務的檢查實務啊我們港口機場都是關務人員 對不對"},{"start":440.649,"end":463.926,"text":"都是公務人員?機場?是有公務人員?有我們在公務人員大概配置多少?比方說桃園機場配置多少公務人員?抱怨台北關是一千四百多名員工那機場的部分他就一個機查組那邊一個組應該四五十個左右吧四五十個,還有輪班對不對?"},{"start":464.526,"end":489.456,"text":"是好先這樣子我們有藍色通道我知道你紅綠線通關再給我28秒有紅跟綠對不對是大部分都是走綠對不對是少部分是走好那麼多頻繁出入的這個旅客當中你們怎麼知道他所攜帶的這些的東西是不是超過海關的容量"},{"start":490.489,"end":515.386,"text":"或者海關的許可你們怎麼去瞭解我們有風險管理的一個機制對於每一個旅客我們都有一些管控的風險的一些我親身經驗很多通過之後這些公務人員也沒有特別去關心也沒有特別去看大家都走出去很自然的那公務人員有時候他們在討論國政還是討論什麼你們的業務什麼好像沒有"},{"start":518.595,"end":536.287,"text":"很認真的去執行每一個這個通關的旅客他們是不是有攜帶過量的這個東西跟委員報告您的拖運行李在通關的時候其實在地下室都已經經過S光檢查不是啊那如果是手提的呢手提的我們會看狀況去處理是"},{"start":539.233,"end":561.429,"text":"所以還是你要參考我參考這個日本日本他們在最後一線這個關稅床這個關物的部分是很謹慎的幾乎每個人都要把他的手機行李拿過來看他會問你這個有沒有帶什麼東西都會了解是但我方相對呀不是說我們做的不好相對的稍微比較輕鬆一點"},{"start":564.927,"end":576.063,"text":"我覺得關乎這個很重要是不是要稍微把這個輕鬆度把它降低把這個嚴謹度再加強好的謝謝邱委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1323,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（12時49分）謝謝主席，有請財政部莊部長，還有兆豐金控董董事長。"],["主席：請莊部長、兆豐金控董董事長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：為什麼我會請兆豐金控董董事長跟部長？因為今天下午央行開理監事會，兩位都是理事嘛，對於今天媒體報導第7波打房，我們有大型行庫出現虧本做房貸，說會衝擊盈餘，也會產生鑑價的問題，有三大警訊，希望央行不要再加碼第8波。我想請問兩位，下午開會的時候，你們立場是怎麼樣？請問部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，下午會開會，央行會充分做一些資料的討論，資料的一個呈現……"],["邱委員志偉：這邊寫大型行庫的高層是這樣呼籲，那是代表我們所有國有銀行共同的聲音嗎？我問一下董董事長。"],["董董事長瑞斌：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：您也是理事，您的看法呢？"],["董董事長瑞斌：報告委員，我想報導上應該不是……跟我所知道的應該是不一樣。"],["邱委員志偉：這三個警訊存在嗎？"],["董董事長瑞斌：應該不會，因為過去這段時間，我們對所有房地產業者，我們總的來說，不管是授信的餘額或者是它真正的使用狀況，額度跟餘額都在降低。另外，我們的……"],["邱委員志偉：所以這三項警訊不存在，比如說……"],["董董事長瑞斌：對，我們利率是增加，利率是上漲。"],["邱委員志偉：做房貸是虧本的，然後盈餘也會降低？"],["董董事長瑞斌：應該不至於。沒有，沒有，我們利率是上漲，我們利率是調升的。"],["邱委員志偉：所以不存在這三大警訊？那這三大警訊怎麼來的？"],["董董事長瑞斌：我覺得至少不是我所知道官股的銀行。"],["邱委員志偉：我相信您專業的判斷跟評估啦！好，謝謝。我想跟莊部長報告我的感覺，十幾年來我在立法院，我看到很多我們國有銀行、公股行庫所有的董事長跟總經理都非常兢兢業業，所以臺灣的國有銀行可以說是另外一種護國群山，是扮演臺灣經濟穩定的力量，這點應當值得大家去鼓勵或者去讚賞。我碰到省屬行庫所有的董事長跟總經理，包括臺灣金控凌董事長、董瑞斌董事長，第一金控邱月琴董事長、華南銀行黃總經理和合庫的林衍茂董事長及蘇佐政總經理，還有彰銀胡光華董事長跟周總經理，這些過程我都有跟他們互動，民意代表會接受民眾的陳情，當民眾發生問題他們沒有適當的管道，我們作為一個平臺，我們很樂意去協助解決問題。所以最重要的是，我們省屬銀行不管是董事長或者是總經理都非常親民，非常了解民眾的需求，所以臺灣省屬行庫除了是金融界的模範生之外，也是扮演臺灣經濟穩定最重要的力量，您同意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯。"],["邱委員志偉：反過來說，對臺灣經濟最不穩定的亂源是來自哪裡？來自於這裡，來自於立法院，您同意嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個沒有辦法置評。"],["邱委員志偉：會後我們再討論，會後請你喝咖啡會再討論，我認為是這樣子。法令亂改，財劃法亂修，弄得這樣亂七八糟，國家財政紀律、國家財政穩定，都受到影響，這是臺灣經濟最大的威脅跟亂源，here， here， here！講到這個我都滿肚子火，我們希望在這個最穩定的亂源之中扮演一些穩定的力量啦！好，我請101台北金融大樓股份有限公司賈董事長、臺灣菸酒股份有限公司湯董事長。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：請賈董、湯董。"],["邱委員志偉：董事長，我要請教去年的EPS多少？"],["賈董事長永媫：你好，我們else算4。"],["邱委員志偉：2024的EPS多少？"],["賈董事長永媫：4。"],["邱委員志偉：EPS是4啊？你確定？"],["賈董事長永媫：1.75，對不起。"],["邱委員志偉：EPS是4啊？"],["賈董事長永媫：1.75，抱歉。"],["邱委員志偉：4跟1.75差滿多的耶！"],["賈董事長永媫：抱歉。"],["邱委員志偉：如果你可以一下子衝到4，你可以得諾貝爾經濟學獎，是嘛？那2025在你的組織之下……"],["賈董事長永媫：1.75，你剛才也講錯了，got you！"],["邱委員志偉：我是用你的話來……因為你的話……好，1.75，是比1.51還好，你上任之後……你什麼時候接任的？"],["賈董事長永媫：9月。"],["邱委員志偉：9月，好。2023（去）年是1.51，你接任之後變成1.75，而2025年的時候，也就是今年，您的期許呢？"],["賈董事長永媫：我的期許啊？我的期許就是越來越好，就是要打破2024的紀錄。"],["邱委員志偉：拿到4？"],["賈董事長永媫：2。"],["邱委員志偉：好，你2就好了，我就對你非常感謝，也對你非常肯定，好，謝謝賈董事長。"],["賈董事長永媫：好，謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：接著請教一下湯董事長。"],["湯董事長期安：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：董事長，一樣的問題，我請教你，菸酒公司有它的問題，你覺得在你上任之後必須解決、最急迫要解決的問題是什麼？"],["湯董事長期安：加熱菸要通過。"],["邱委員志偉：什麼？"],["湯董事長期安：加熱菸要通過。"],["邱委員志偉：加熱菸要通過不是我的業務，是衛環委員會、衛福部的……這個部分，每一個人都有不同的看法，那你的績效，去年的EPS多少？"],["湯董事長期安：大概一塊錢。"],["邱委員志偉：去年一塊錢？"],["湯董事長期安：一塊錢。"],["邱委員志偉：你上任之後，你覺得今年的目標呢？"],["湯董事長期安：向上提升。"],["邱委員志偉：也是要到4，是不是？"],["湯董事長期安：這個是我們的目標啦！"],["邱委員志偉：你還是可以得到諾貝爾經濟學獎。最後30秒，謝謝兩位董事長。","關務署，關務的檢查實務，我們的港口、機場都有關務人員，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["邱委員志偉：機場有關務人員？"],["彭署長英偉：有。"],["邱委員志偉：我們關務人員大概配置多少，比方說桃園機場配置多少關務人員？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，臺北關是一千四百多名員工，而機場的部分就一個稽查組，一個組應該四、五十個左右吧！"],["邱委員志偉：四、五十個，還要輪班對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好，現在是這樣子，我們有藍色通道，我知道……"],["彭署長英偉：紅綠線通關。"],["邱委員志偉：再給我28秒。有紅跟綠對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["邱委員志偉：大部分都是走綠，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好，在那麼多頻繁出入的旅客當中，你們怎麼知道他所攜帶的這些東西，是不是超過海關許可的量？你們怎麼去了解？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，我們有風險管理的一個機制，對於每一個旅客，我們都有一些管控的風險……"],["邱委員志偉：我親身經驗，很多通過之後，這些關務人員也沒有特別去關心，也沒有特別去看，大家都很自然的走出去，而關務人員有時候他們也許在討論國政，還是討論你們的業務之類的，好像沒有很認真的去執行檢查每一個通關的旅客，了解他們是不是有攜帶過量的東西。"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，您的託運行李在通關的時候，其實在地下室都已經經過X光檢查。"],["邱委員志偉：不是啊，那如果是手提的呢？"],["彭署長英偉：手提的，我們會看狀況去處理。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我參考日本，日本在關務的最後一線是很謹慎的，幾乎每個人都要把他的手提行李拿出來看，他們會問：你有沒有帶什麼東西？都會一一去詢問。"],["彭署長英偉：瞭解。"],["邱委員志偉：不是說我們做得不好，但是我方相對比較輕鬆一點。我覺得關務真的很重要，是不是要稍微把輕鬆度降低、把嚴謹度再加強？"],["彭署長英偉：好的。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。接著請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159482","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159482","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0d87274f548364fc356c3f89dc79e7a256c2779210393a151fd3a25c60a590e925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"12:44:13 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謝謝主席欸 部長已經他請假他請假了 好那我就請這一個台電董事長賴冠希你先喝口水鄭董"},{"start":20.512,"end":47.805,"text":"是委員好來董事長好這個昨天你有有一個會議那我看了一下會議的一些結論那會議結論那你有提到就是說這個希望330度就是民生用電330度以下的這一個民生用電能夠做合理的調整那所以說因為接下來這月底就是電價審議委員會審議委員會要開會了那你釋出這樣的訊息是不是有想說這個"},{"start":49.606,"end":72.432,"text":"第一個是想說反映成本嗎就是說過去長期以來民生用電的電費偏低所以要反映成本那還是說第二個希望藉由這個來減少台電的虧損我跟委員報告就是說昨天事實上是有一個跟記者做了一些說明因為大家都非常關心電價"},{"start":73.789,"end":101.83,"text":"那在這個題目上面狀況是這樣我們去說明的都是事實就是說目前為止台灣的電價級距裡面就330度以下的電費是比20年前還要低比2004年還要低我要呈現的這是第一個這是事實真的是比較低第二個部分是台電雖然是國營事業但它也是一個營利事業"},{"start":103.376,"end":125.242,"text":"那這個部分如果要台電承擔我們認為說政府編列預算來支持是應該要有的工作全世界的一些民主國家也都做德國、日本、法國都做了相關的如果要電業承擔就要由政府來編列預算補貼的一個相關的對等措施"},{"start":126.069,"end":151.103,"text":"那我們是認為說如果電價繼續一低那是不是能夠把這個對等措施也能夠同時做起來就是兩件事情第一件事情就是說那一個你提到就是說這個330度以下民生用電你說反映一個事實嘛就是長期是偏低那所以我說你提出來這個事實是說比如說是想要反映成本那事實做調整"},{"start":151.903,"end":174.461,"text":"就是說如果我們認為說這個確實乖離成本而且比20年前還低其實違反常識那如果真的電價委員會如果還要做出一個決議就是說持續照顧民生那照顧民生這個部分政府也都編列了預算是不是能夠讓這個預算編列補貼台電的部分能夠真正落實"},{"start":175.242,"end":201.54,"text":"那我當然知道啦 去年這個最佳1000億 那今年也變成1000億但是看起來這2000億應該是很難通過啦那所以才會有接下來就是說 那台電第一個 還在虧損當中虧損當中當然第一個 這個政府如果資金有業助進來 那當然對於虧損是有協助那對於虧損有協助其實漲價的這個壓力就沒有這麼大嘛 對不對是的"},{"start":201.82,"end":205.342,"text":"好那第二個就是說那如果這兩千億沒有進來的話那台電該怎麼辦報告委員兩千我只能夠跟您說電價也不是台電決定對當然能不能補貼也不是台電決定"},{"start":219.042,"end":240.198,"text":"對我知道啊所以你才會所以我想說你是不是釋出那個訊息出來就是說因為民生電價長期來講比較偏低我們會希望我們真的會希望因為我要跟委員報告我們提的這些東西都是事實我們也希望社會能夠做合理的討論我們也希望能夠多做一點我們這都在合理的討論你把事實講出來那我們透過這個場域讓社會大眾知道這個事實"},{"start":246.283,"end":270.699,"text":"那第二個就是說你還有提到這個有可能會調整這個底度的規定因為過去這個底度的規定跟委員特別做報告感謝您關心因為底度是一個固定支出其實台灣有我們台電的電費統計裡面有100多萬戶有掛電表但是它一個月的用電度數其實不到20度接近150萬150萬的用戶都是講最低的電費而已20度"},{"start":276.703,"end":291.738,"text":"對角20度但它是接近空戶但問題是我們掛電錶設電路這些都有固定成本我們覺得隨著物價的上漲人工的費用也上漲這一些固定成本是不是應該做合理的反應尤其是針對空戶"},{"start":293.58,"end":319.596,"text":"對那所以說如果按照昨天有釋放出來訊息的話那是不是會把這一個底度把它調整20度往上調調到30度或是40度我們希望的我們希望能夠跟部裡面討論的方式是現在這一些固定成本的邊境成本支出是不是能夠合理的做反應那是不是還要照著這種底度的觀念去做"},{"start":320.376,"end":348.328,"text":"就是幾度算是底度這一件事我們也會一併做檢討因為它是一個fixed cost它不是跟因為現在的公式現在的公式有點問題它是跟著變動成本去做計算這個就不對應該要回到固定成本觀念去做計算我來當董事長我也希望能夠把這一些過去電價表不完全合乎經濟邏輯的事情做一些調整在這邊一併跟委員做報告好那表示說這個底度會做調整就對了"},{"start":351.875,"end":357.063,"text":"對 就是基本的費用那我再問一下台電目前的財務狀況目前負債多少我們負債"},{"start":363.454,"end":375.197,"text":"兩兆多啊累虧累虧是4229億對累虧啦2024年的計算就是累計虧成是到2024年是4229億嘛好那你們也試圖要舉債嘛對不對是的你們看我們這個今年預計要舉債1500億那去年已經有舉債多少1600億是好那"},{"start":392.472,"end":412.225,"text":"這個舉債當然是一個方式 那當然市場買不買帳是另外一回事那可是舉債就有成本啦 有利息啦 我問一下你們一年光是這個舉債利息是多少目前我們的平均利率大概在城上我們的舉債餘額大概一年要支出300億以上"},{"start":413.052,"end":434.839,"text":"一年光是利息有300億是的你們這300億是你們舉債是跟公股銀行借錢嗎還是怎麼樣我沒有發各種我還是要跟委員報告因為台電目前的狀況其實我們的利率台電舉借的利率實際上是比一般企業來講稍低一些稍低一些主要是母數很大就是我們的餘額很高還是有300億對"},{"start":436.499,"end":443.89,"text":"那所以目前來看的話你們的負債比已經高達九成二了那所以還有舉債的空間嗎"},{"start":447.349,"end":472.125,"text":"跟委員報告其實是因為我們不管我們這個市場債的市場有一定程度的未納量那這些銀行持有公司債也有一定比例的上限就是他持有單一公司的比例是有受到軍管會的一些限制的所以我們其實從去年開始我們發公司債的投標比就已經開始下降"},{"start":474.592,"end":492.31,"text":"那當然電費漲不漲最後不是你們來決定的那我也相信說如果這一個追加預算跟這個今年撥的預算總共2000億能夠過當然對於台電的虧損會有所幫助那對台電虧損有所幫助其實就是減輕了全民的負擔其實應該是這樣子來講但是如果這2000億落空的話"},{"start":497.208,"end":505.815,"text":"相信這一個漲價的壓力就會有啦但是這個不是台電你們這家公司的責任啦"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1250,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（12時44分）謝謝主席，部長已經……"],["主席：他請假。"],["李委員坤城：他請假，好，那我就請台電董事長，沒關係，你先喝口水。"],["主席：請曾董。"],["曾董事長文生：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：董事長好。昨天你有一個會議，我看了一下會議的一些會議結論，你有提到希望330度以下的民生用電能夠做合理的調整。因為接下來這個月底電價審議委員會要開會了，而你釋出這樣的訊息，是不是要表達：第一個，是想要反映成本嗎？就是過去長期以來民生用電的電費偏低，所以要反映成本；還是第二個，希望藉此來減少台電的虧損？"],["曾董事長文生：我跟委員報告，昨天事實上是有跟記者做了一些說明，因為大家都非常關心電價。"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["曾董事長文生：在這一個題目上面的狀況是這樣，我們去說明的都是事實，目前為止，臺灣的電價級距裡面，330度以下的電費是比20年前還要低，比2004年還要低，這是我要呈現的第一個，這是事實，真的是比較低。第二個部分，台電雖然是國營事業，但它也是一個營利事業，這一個部分如果要台電承擔，我們認為政府編列預算來支持是應該要有的工作，全世界的一些民主國家也都在做，像德國、日本、法國都做了相關的，如果要電業承擔，就要由政府編列預算補貼來做一個相關對等措施，我認為如果電價繼續抑低，是不是能夠把這個對等措施也同時做起來？"],["李委員坤城：就是兩件事情，第一件事情，你提到330度以下民生用電，你說這是反映一個事實嘛！"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["李委員坤城：就是長期是偏低，而你提出來這個事實是說，比如是想要反映成本，適時地做調整。"],["曾董事長文生：我們認為這個確實乖離成本，而且比20年前還低，其實違反常識啦！"],["李委員坤城：對。"],["曾董事長文生：如果真的電價委員會還要作出一個決議，就是持續照顧民生，而照顧民生這個部分，政府也都編列了預算，是不是能夠讓預算編列補貼台電的部分能夠真正落實？"],["李委員坤城：對，我當然知道，去年追加1,000億，今年也編列1,000億，但是看起來這2,000億應該是很難通過啦！所以才會有接下來的部分，第一個，台電還在虧損當中，政府資金如果有挹注進來，當然對於虧損是有協助的，對於虧損有協助的話，其實漲價的壓力就沒有這麼大嘛，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：是的。"],["李委員坤城：第二個，如果這2,000億沒有進來的話，台電該怎麼辦？"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，我只能夠跟您說，電價也不是台電決定。"],["李委員坤城：對，當然。"],["曾董事長文生：能不能補貼也不是台電決定。"],["李委員坤城：對，我知道啊！"],["曾董事長文生：所以……"],["李委員坤城：所以我想你釋出那個訊息出來，因為民生電價長期來講比較偏低。"],["曾董事長文生：我們真的會希望，我要跟委員報告，我們提的這些東西都是事實，我們也希望社會能夠做合理的討論，我們也希望能夠多做一點……"],["李委員坤城：我們這都是合理的討論，你把事實講出來，我們透過這個場域也讓社會大眾知道這個事實。第二個，你還有提到有可能會調整底度的規定，因為過去這一個……"],["曾董事長文生：關於底度的規定，跟委員特別做報告，感謝您關心，因為底度是一個固定支出，在台電的電費統計裡面，臺灣有一百多萬戶有掛電表，但是他們一個月的用電度數其實不到20度，已經接近空戶。"],["李委員坤城：我看了你們的資料，有150萬的用戶都是繳最低的電費而已，即20度。"],["曾董事長文生：對，繳20度，但他們是接近空戶，可是問題是我們掛電表、設電路這些都有固定成本，我們覺得隨著物價的上漲、人工的費用也上漲，這一些固定成本是不是應該做合理的反映？尤其是針對空戶。"],["李委員坤城：對，如果按照昨天所釋放出來的訊息，是不是會把底度做調整，比如20度往上調到30度或40度？"],["曾董事長文生：我們希望能夠跟部裡面討論的方式是，現在這一些固定成本的邊際成本支出是不是能夠合理的做反映？是不是還要照著這種底度的觀念去做？就是幾度算是底度這一件事我們也會一併做檢討，因為它是一個fixed cost，而現在的公式有點問題，它是跟著變動成本去做計算，這個就不對，應該要回到固定成本觀念去做計算。我來當董事長後，也希望能夠把這一些過去電價表不完全合乎經濟邏輯的事情做一些調整，在這邊一併跟委員報告。"],["李委員坤城：好，表示這個底度會做調整就對了？"],["曾董事長文生：對，就是基本的費用。"],["李委員坤城：OK，我再問一下台電目前的財務狀況，目前負債多少？"],["曾董事長文生：我們負債兩兆多，累虧是4,229億。"],["李委員坤城：對，累虧啦！"],["曾董事長文生：到2024年的結算。"],["李委員坤城：就是累計到2024年的虧損是4,229億嘛。你們也試圖要舉債，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：是的。"],["李委員坤城：我看你們今年預計要舉債1,500億，去年已經有舉債多少？1,600億？"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["李委員坤城：舉債當然是一個方式，當然，市場買不買帳是另外一回事，可是舉債就有成本，就是有利息。"],["曾董事長文生：是的。"],["李委員坤城：我問一下，你們一年光是舉債的利息是多少？"],["曾董事長文生：300億。"],["李委員坤城：多少？"],["曾董事長文生：目前我們的平均利率再乘上我們的舉債餘額大概一年要支出300億以上。"],["李委員坤城：一年光是利息就300億？"],["曾董事長文生：是的。"],["李委員坤城：你們這300億是……你們舉債是跟公股銀行借錢，還是怎麼樣？"],["曾董事長文生：我們有發各種……我還是要跟委員報告，台電目前的狀況，我們舉借的利率事實上是比一般企業來講稍低一些。"],["李委員坤城：稍低一些，但是……"],["曾董事長文生：主要是母數很大，就是我們的餘額很高。"],["李委員坤城：對，因為你一年還是有300億。"],["曾董事長文生：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以目前來看的話，你們的負債比已經高達九成……"],["曾董事長文生：九成二。"],["李委員坤城：已經九成二了，所以還有舉債的空間嗎？"],["曾董事長文生：跟委員報告，因為這個債的市場有一定程度的胃納量，這一些銀行持有的公司債也有一定比例的上限，就是它持有單一公司的比例是有受到金管會的一些限制，所以我們其實從去年開始，發公司債的投標比就已經開始下降了。"],["李委員坤城：好，當然電費漲不漲，最後不是你們來決定的。"],["曾董事長文生：是的。"],["李委員坤城：我也相信如果追加預算跟今年撥補的預算總共2,000億能夠通過，當然對於台電的虧損會有所幫助，其實就是減輕了全民的負擔，應該是這樣子來講啦！"],["曾董事長文生：是。"],["李委員坤城：但是如果這2,000億落空的話，相信就會有漲價的壓力，但是這個不是台電你們這家公司的責任。"],["曾董事長文生：謝謝委員體諒。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在請伍麗華委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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資安的部分那更重要那財政部的尤其像我們的財資中心那個資安的等級是非常高的是非常高的所以未來我們其實應該是盡量不要再用網路抽獎了部長所以能夠承諾也向國人來確認未來不要再有這種被作弊的事情發生對"},{"start":266.82,"end":295.746,"text":"好部長那另外一個部分當然很多的委員也都關心了美國現在川普總統上任兩個月1月20號到現在但是全世界真的都天翻地覆全世界都有很多遊戲規則改變了那其中本席就有看到針對美國的財政部長他有講到是說有前15名的這個percentage的國家對美國徵收高關稅叫做骯髒15台灣也在名列其中對不對"},{"start":300.063,"end":324.329,"text":"沒有嗎沒有啊沒有掌握我們台灣傳台灣也被點名骯髒十五國傳台灣名列其中有沒有掌握沒有啊報告委員沒有看到這個消息沒有看到這個新聞沒有沒有看到這個新聞部長是對啊對因為我們一直非常關注這個是非常重視剛剛新聞還有推播耶"},{"start":326.663,"end":352.674,"text":"說從昨天晚上到今天新聞還有推播川普政府點名骯髒15國路透社報台灣陸列還有台灣被美列骯髒15國高關稅名單已經有相關人士點名說我們汽車產業萬萬歲所以他可能會被結果部長我覺得這"},{"start":356.327,"end":374.776,"text":"來部長您可以用麥克風來你再講一遍你說因為早上都在這邊所以我們幕僚作業也沒有辦法及時的讓大家知道但這個是這兩天出來美國那邊財政部長18號接受福斯新聞專訪說骯髒15國是特別關注美國徵收高關稅跟貿易量大的前15%的國家部長麥克風打開啦是我們財政部長沒有掌握"},{"start":386.913,"end":399.939,"text":"奇怪我們一起我們在同一艘船上但是我真的要求如果說這樣的話我覺得有點危險因為18號美國財政部長的專訪特別講了而且他講是說"},{"start":401.69,"end":427.915,"text":"未來他可能會用美國會用自身的稅率非關稅的貿易壁壘匯率調整等給美國談判的機會而如果這些國家停止非關稅壁壘的情況可以避免被加徵關稅換言之他可能會用加徵關稅來變成是談判的手段我覺得這就要變成是我們未來民進黨政府以及財政部要妥善的因應"},{"start":429.196,"end":450.654,"text":"不能等閒視之這個專訪我是有看到但是您剛剛講那個15國陸列的部分所以到現在我們還不知道台灣有沒有被陸列人家都點名了有15個國家我們到現在還不知道台灣有沒有被陸列那更不用講說我們怎麼樣回應怎麼樣反應怎麼樣來啟動我們相關應有的應變措施我們剛剛同事又再去確定有還沒有"},{"start":456.266,"end":470.756,"text":"有錄裂15國我們剛剛上網在查了部長是照理講這一件事情不應該由一個在野黨的委員在質詢的時候提醒你"},{"start":471.741,"end":486.079,"text":"照理講這件事情應該是財政部我們所有的聰明的大腦們應該早就掌握照理講美國現在兩個月下來川普政府他有一些改變的狀況我們應該都要緊盯這些狀況"},{"start":489.901,"end":518.748,"text":"是 我覺得我們是一直都有在緊盯這個部長好 宏偉時間關係方面這個會後給你提供因為召委已經站起來了我覺得這可能是連我們召委連我們不管藍綠委員都非常關注的是部長不能狀況外是後續怎麼樣發展我會再利用持續的質詢機會再跟你就教是請一定要準備好也一定要萬全的因應我們都一直有在關注然後也做相關的盤點好 謝謝宏偉委員謝謝請部長會後也提供給宏偉委員相關的資訊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1269,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時40分）主席謝謝，麻煩請莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。部長，先請教，這兩天有個新聞，是針對高雄稅捐稽徵處所辦理的「稅務突擊隊」網路抽獎活動，被發現有15名都是同姓的中獎人，被網友戲稱說這是彭家軍，當然現在已經確定是一個駭客利用遊戲的系統漏洞來讓自己的獲獎機率高達84%。本席不禁也想到去年引起軒然大波、沸沸揚揚，就是「雲端種樹趣e起集點樹」的網路活動也爆發4名中獎人連續中兩次大獎，那個時候財政部給我們的報告是講，還用調查局來背書說沒有涉及不法，但是現在看得出來其實在網路世界，當時很多委員都持續關心要怎麼樣防止駭客的作弊程式，這才是重點。我想請教一下部長，有沒有掌握這個新聞？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我知道，這個新聞我知道，這是高雄市的稅捐稽徵處辦的，不是我們國稅局辦的，這是因為駭客入侵所造成的情況，就我們所知，目前重複的44個獎項也都沒有發送，但是委員也知道……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有發送，但是他確實就是用作弊的方式造成他中獎的狀況嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：就是有一個這樣的事情發生，對不對？我也知道委員很重視，上次委員也有特別提醒，因為財政部的網路報稅等等都是這麼多年努力下來所建立出來的公信，那有關雲端種樹趣的發票中獎，有4個人重複中大獎的部分，當然我們不希望重複再發生這樣的事情，所以第一個，我們就去清查相關的人員，都沒有涉案，我們本身財政部的所有所屬人員，包含我們的機構也都沒有，然後也沒有承辦廠商內部的人，但是因為在程式設計上把權重做了調整，而這個權重調整的部分超乎一般人的一般通常概念，應該是說你用的雲端發票越多，中獎比例越高，但是不能去調這個權重，所以這個部分我們移送調查局調查以後，它認為是沒有不法，但是我們會認為這個情況仍然不應該發生，所以我們對於廠商已經在民事上請求相關追償，以及它必須要去澄清是它自己本身的問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們對廠商追償多少費用？"],["莊部長翠雲：2,400萬，這個部分我們會去做。另外，委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：已經提起對廠商求償2,400萬？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，已經提起訴訟，在去年有提起訴訟。","第二個，我了解委員關切的，也就是日後不能再發生這樣的事情，所以我們認為抽獎要以實體抽獎，而網路抽獎要更加嚴謹，並且要多方驗證、多方查驗，避免有這種情況，像這種駭客入侵，有的時候是道高一尺，魔高一丈，這種情況也要去防弊，我覺得我們一定要做到這個部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：這點我不苛責財政部，畢竟財政的專業並不是數位相關專業嘛，有一些可能是道高一尺，魔高一丈，我同意，因為網路世界或程式世界日新月異，資安的部分有沒有跟數發部來做溝通了解？否則政府的系統隨隨便便一個駭客就可以作弊，那我們這幾十億養的數發部在幹麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，資安的部分更重要，財政部尤其像我們的財資中心，資安的等級是非常高的，所以我覺得未來我們其實應該是儘量不要再用網路抽獎了。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。部長，所以能夠承諾，也向國人確認未來不要再有這種被作弊的事情發生？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。部長，另外一個部分，當然很多的委員也都在關心，美國川普總統上任兩個月，從1月20號到現在，全世界真的都天翻地覆，全世界有很多遊戲規則都改變了，其中本席就有看到，美國的財政部長提到前15%國家對美國徵收高關稅的叫做骯髒15國，臺灣也名列其中，對不對？沒有嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有啊。"],["彭署長英偉：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有掌握？報導寫到被點名骯髒15國，傳臺灣名列其中。有沒有掌握？"],["彭署長英偉：沒有，報告委員，沒有看到這個消息。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有看到這個消息，沒有看到這個新聞？"],["彭署長英偉：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有看到這個新聞？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，因為我們一直非常關注雙方面……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個是非常重視……剛剛新聞還有推播耶！"],["莊部長翠雲：剛剛？那是因為我們都在這邊。"],["洪委員孟楷：從昨天晚上到今天，新聞還有推播川普政府點名骯髒15國，路透社報臺灣入列，還有臺灣被美列骯髒15國高關稅名單，已經有相關人士點名說我們汽車產業萬萬稅，所以它可能會被……部長，您可以用麥克風，你再講一遍，你說因為早上都在這邊，所以幕僚作業也沒有辦法及時地讓大家知道，但這是這兩天出來的新聞，美國財政部長18號接受福斯新聞專訪說骯髒15國是特別關注美國徵收高關稅且貿易量大的前15%國家。部長，麥克風打開。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們的財政部長沒有掌握？"],["莊部長翠雲：奇怪，我們其實都非常……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們一起在同一艘船上，但是我真的要求，如果這樣的話，我覺得有點危險，因為18號美國財政部長的專訪特別講了，而且他是說未來美國會用自身的稅率、非關稅的貿易壁壘、匯率調整等給予跟美國談判的機會，而如果這些國家停止非關稅壁壘的情況可以避免被加徵關稅，換言之，他可能會用加徵關稅變成是談判的手段，我覺得這是未來民進黨政府以及財政部要妥善因應的，不能等閒視之。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，這個專訪我是有看到，但是您剛剛講那個15國入列的部分，我覺得我會……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以到現在我們還不知道臺灣有沒有被入列？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們會……"],["洪委員孟楷：人家都點名了有15個國家，我們到現在還不知道臺灣有沒有被入列，那更不用講說我們怎麼樣回應、怎麼樣反應、怎麼樣來啟動相關應有的應變措施。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，是有，我們剛剛同事又再去確定……"],["洪委員孟楷：有還沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：有入列15國。"],["主席：請部長回去查明。"],["洪委員孟楷：有還沒有？我們有入列。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們剛剛已經上網在查了，對。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，照理講，這一件事情不應該由一個在野黨的委員在質詢的時候提醒你；照理講，這件事情應該是財政部我們所有聰明的大腦們早就掌握；照理講，美國現在兩個月下來川普政府有一些改變的狀況，我們應該都要緊盯這一些狀況。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們是一直有在緊盯這個。"],["主席：洪委員，時間關係，方不方便會後提供給你？"],["洪委員孟楷：因為召委已經站起來了，我覺得這可能是連我們召委，不管藍綠委員我們都非常關注的，部長不能狀況外，後續怎麼樣發展，我會再持續利用質詢的機會再跟你就教，請一定要準備好，也一定要有萬全的因應。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們都一直有在關注，然後也都有做相關的盤點。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請部長會後也提供給洪委員相關的資訊，你們確認一下，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來有請邱委員志偉質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159480","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159480","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0b7321874810b616301b4bb3d6676f3fd6c2779210393a1515c646c8d84b4e4215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"12:35:22 - 12:47:06","影片長度":"00:11:44","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T12:35:22+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T12:47:06+08:00","duration":704,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.46034375,"end":7.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.316593750000003,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.535343750000003,"end":17.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.78346875,"end":17.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.85096875,"end":18.137843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.31909375,"end":29.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.051593750000002,"end":31.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.53659375,"end":38.354093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.94971875,"end":35.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.611593750000004,"end":72.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.58159375,"end":41.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.174093750000004,"end":56.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.24159375,"end":56.579093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.23471875,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.16909375,"end":88.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.30409375,"end":88.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.62471875,"end":88.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.79346875,"end":89.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.73846875000001,"end":89.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.05909375,"end":110.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.19534375,"end":109.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.47784375,"end":116.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.93659375000001,"end":117.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.32471875,"end":121.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.33284375000001,"end":120.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.84721875000001,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.02346875,"end":142.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.52346875,"end":145.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.56096875,"end":155.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.99409375000002,"end":172.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.02346875,"end":158.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.51034375,"end":172.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.99971875,"end":177.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.21846875,"end":195.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.93096875,"end":181.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.97284375,"end":184.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.08659375000002,"end":184.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.34659375,"end":202.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.73409375,"end":200.45534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.45534375000003,"end":200.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.96971875000003,"end":212.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.80846875,"end":209.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.30596875,"end":225.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.02221875,"end":218.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.27846875,"end":232.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.53971875000002,"end":228.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.96971875000003,"end":232.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.73284375000003,"end":236.28096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.49159375000002,"end":240.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.46596875,"end":242.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.61346875,"end":243.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.70596875,"end":244.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.18659375000001,"end":247.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.80659375000002,"end":250.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.92846875,"end":251.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.75534375,"end":251.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.97471875000002,"end":255.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.90659375,"end":255.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.92346875,"end":258.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.71221875000003,"end":258.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.83846875,"end":262.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.69034375,"end":269.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.03534375000004,"end":275.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.78534375000004,"end":281.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":279.85221875,"end":283.34534375000004},{"s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謝謝次長在開始之前我不知道你有沒有看到今天早上的一個很大版的新聞就是有關於狼屍"},{"start":19.546,"end":34.734,"text":"這個狼屍就是班導要女童雙腳打開給他偷拍還有教練性侵害32個兒童90次這個新聞我不曉得市長有沒有掌握今天還沒有看新聞不過這種新聞我們都會注意"},{"start":38.356,"end":64.232,"text":"那待會這份報紙我也就留給次長那我想最重要的重點就是說其實家長有個訴求一直以來都有一個訴求就是說過去在教育體系呢其實學校是可以透過不適任教師的系統去確認每一個他們招募的老師也好或是教練也好是不是有符合這樣子的一個不適任有沒有任何的罪行有沒有任何的犯罪證據記錄等等的但是其實家長完全是一無所知"},{"start":65.032,"end":89.683,"text":"那現在呢過去我自己在處理校園狼屍的案件或者是去年台北市信義區幼兒園的這個狼屍的案件這個毛俊生這個狼屍呢當時大家媒體都沒有在報導最主要是當時受限於那個兒少權法第69條不得揭露兒少事件身份資訊之相關規定可是因為後來保護司司長其實有出來說如果他符合公義的事實揭露"},{"start":90.223,"end":116.645,"text":"所以我想要了解就是說我們這個不適應的教師查詢系統呢是不是也可以提供給我們的家長可以來做查詢因為有時候你可能只有你老師可以查可是萬一這個老師跑到另外一個學校或是跑去外面開了這個工作室其實家長真的完全不知道這部分是可行的嗎我想我請我們有提過啦那但是有一些法規的部分我們請人事處來了解一下"},{"start":118.418,"end":144.958,"text":"跟委員報告一下,目前的法規並沒有規定說可以開放學校以外的一般人是不可以嗎?不可以我之前已經修了教育人員任人條例和教師法但是我覺得在法還沒有通過之前它是不是還可以有更積極的做法,可能類似公告的方式讓家長至少有機可循"},{"start":145.618,"end":172.279,"text":"其實我覺得那個過程裡面我看到很多個案就是那個學校本身或是任用的機關在查核上任用是一個問題他們可能沒有確實查核可是有一些是他可能他們發現只有這個資訊只有提供這個老師們自己知道家長不知道所以這個有前科的這一個不管是教練也好或是老師也好他跑去外面工作室開的時候對"},{"start":173.14,"end":201.847,"text":"我們根本一般在外面的老家長啦其實根本無從得知啦其實現在幾個比較容易發生狀況的譬如說教練譬如說這些才藝的老師我們其實現在都在加強這方面的那個通報系統以及那個確認系統就是說盡量讓這個可能性降到最低因為這個孩子他的表現權有限可是我覺得這個問題是在於來自於家長一而再再而三看到這些案例大家都非常的擔心會恐慌啦會恐慌所以我在想我們是不是可以適度的來"},{"start":203.027,"end":232.106,"text":"跟各縣市研商啦有沒有更積極的方式可能是在各教育局上面公開這些資訊讓家長至少可以知道是不是可以試著去研商討論看看對我想這部分我們如果已經確定的就是說基於公益性的揭露那這部分的範圍執行的就我們來研商好不好我們來研商看看在我們現在可行的法條的狀況之下再找找看還沒有可以做的做法這樣好不好查證上"},{"start":233.747,"end":258.262,"text":"好 謝謝那這大概什麼時候可以有一個進度呢我們跟業務單位來我們大概什麼時候可以再來跟教育部討論因為那個涉及到其他的各部會的各縣市吧我們那個有一些法規"},{"start":260.838,"end":287.727,"text":"要不然你來說很多法規的限制我們那個不適應查詢系統的部分實際上是有很多的法規去我現在不是叫你開放那個不適應查詢我是說可不可以公告呢你不用查詢啊讓他公告出來就可以啊就是不設已經我想這部分我們來研究啦好不好好啦沒關係我們事後再來保持聯絡啦好不好我想一個月內一定會有結果啦好 謝謝可以跟不可以"},{"start":288.727,"end":302.307,"text":"好 謝謝那再來就是說再來這個才化法今天他其實很多的委員都提出了非常多的建議啦都積極的想要為孩子爭取我覺得這是一件好事喔但是我想理想很豐滿現實很骨感"},{"start":305.571,"end":327.807,"text":"就是說國民黨應該很難料想到當時匆匆的通過了這個才化法之後竟然會去傷害到我們可能許多的一些相關的政策因為像據我所知行政院已經初估法律義務之外除了法律義務之外可能要減28%而且對相關的一些教育政策計畫可能會有些重大的影響例如我們的一些少子女化對策"},{"start":328.667,"end":355.407,"text":"學輔法的專輔教師真智還有中小學數位學習精進進化等等的可能都會多少會有一點影響我知道現在還沒有定案可是可能會有影響所以我想我們之前第一會期其實已經開了公聽會要來針對這個營養午餐的一個專法來做討論但是我想時空背景已經完全不一樣了甚至我可能都覺得是不是公聽會可能要重新來開來收集大家的意見那我想我們就回到就是說"},{"start":356.408,"end":380.424,"text":"你現在來說我們到底還有多少錢可以來做這件事情我覺得應該是要比較務實的來討論好那就是針對於這個三張EQ的部分我知道我們現在每一年的補助經費大概是40億大概將近38億38億那我們的每一年其實是補助給每年的補助大概是74億修法之後還要再26億那"},{"start":383.257,"end":397.393,"text":"我想就是說在現在的這個物價波長然後我們的這個財化法的影響之後我想知道到底在我們明年的115年的概算上到底影響針對3張EQ這個的預算到底影響是什麼我剛才其實跟委員陸續報告就是說"},{"start":402.762,"end":419.598,"text":"有比較穩定確定的教育算其實對於我們過去的補助它能夠穩定的提供這個是比較好的那因為現在整個國家財政的分配的方式尤其財化法或者是刪除凍結的一個模式當然對教育部重點比較少但財化法這部分"},{"start":420.399,"end":447.163,"text":"它確實會有一些衝擊那這部分的衝擊目前就處於不確定狀態我講的就是說你現在問我說我們會少多少我們只能概估就是說如果說有一些例行的不能那個國家政策譬如說那很多都是國家政策啦你說少持綠化政策也是國家政策啊那到底行政院的態度是要整體的預算要怎麼切少了28%3700多億之後要怎麼切教育部要被切多少"},{"start":447.563,"end":469.935,"text":"那我們現在要如何預估我們目前也只能用推論的方式那我所知道的是我們內部啊業務單位其實在籌編五六月籌編計畫的時候其實也在想說每個單位如果都少30%的話會有哪些優先會減少所以這個部分就是跟地方講就是要跟地方談就是說如果像國教補助款國教署一年大概1600多億"},{"start":470.675,"end":485.372,"text":"沒關係我們就針對於因為我知道那部分還不確定性還非常大我想我們就針對於三藏EQ這件事情因為它比較是類似於中央要做的事情三藏EQ的話這個部分的補助也是要跟地方談就是說這個部分也要談對就是說這個部分營養五山基本上它真的是一個地方自治事項"},{"start":486.293,"end":507.615,"text":"我們過去用計畫來引導是因為當時的財務辦法沒有修當然中央的財源確實比較豐富動省之後大部分的財源統籌都算到中央所以我們當然過去對國民教育階段的醫護條件我們盡量來支付所以我聽起來好像是說到底明年有多少錢可以來做這件事情針對營養午餐的這些事情其實是"},{"start":508.456,"end":534.876,"text":"是處於不確定性的像財務法這樣的衝擊 處於不確定性的還需要跟地方談嗎對不對對 我們就必須要談那要談就會處在不確定性了解 了解那我想就是說因為其實大家當去之前我們在討論營養午餐專法的時候就是說希望22個縣市不要有太多的落差把所有東西一起拉回來在中央做但是呢 去年國民黨的這個財務法大筆一揮又把錢揮到地方去了所以我想我們真的是需要好好地來跟地方來做剛才我說過 對 對 對"},{"start":536.317,"end":562.395,"text":"有的地方同意 有的地方不同意沒錯 沒錯 好好在這來討論我想作為一個立法委員我們立法也要負起責任這才是責任政治但在下一個部分我想要來跟署長表達一個感謝體育署署長就是說我在今年的少年盃的競賽規則中是有看到頭頂球的蓄意使用進入了裁判的判決我覺得這是一個非常好的進步因為確保我們兒童的腦部不要在發育期間受到傷害"},{"start":563.556,"end":584.342,"text":"但是裁判到底如何判斷這個叫蓄意的部分我不曉得說這到底有沒有跟教練來做詳細的溝通呢報告委員這部分我們正在跟足球協會做一個釐清畢竟跟他們的規則有關但我們往這個方向去那賽事的部分我們這邊辦理的賽事其實也都是在下半年才算是一個開始"},{"start":584.884,"end":605.174,"text":"所以這部分我還在處理當中對我想要因為其實家長都非常關心到底我小孩子怎麼樣的東西叫做蓄意投頂球所以這個部分請麻煩跟教練做一個詳細的說明才能夠確定我們執法的時候不會有任何的偏差那最後一件事情就其實我就是簡單的快速講一下我想讓部長看一下次長看一下就是說陳潔憲其實他在"},{"start":607.115,"end":629.034,"text":"講他小時候其實非常希望如果學業跟運動之間的關係可以找到一個平衡那這樣他們會有好的球技也會有扎實的知識基礎讓所有的孩子都可以在未來不管遇到什麼樣的挑戰都可以有更好的一個可能性那因為今天時間的關係我來不及問到這一題但是我想接下來我可能也會持續的來跟體育署跟次長這邊來更詳細的討論這個議題但是先讓我一分鐘要一個資料"},{"start":634.352,"end":663.559,"text":"在我們現在呢其實有客服的一些相關的補助案但是我找不到相關的執行細項好像體育署這邊也沒辦法給我到底有多少人參加多少班參加這些實際的校數的分配比在哪些縣市我完全一無所知是不是可以請體育署提供給我這樣子的資料呢可以嗎好那為什麼之前不給我勒"},{"start":665.636,"end":694.63,"text":"是不是來不及整理 因為我們之前要 為什麼不給我們呢主長這邊來要整理 可能需要整理 需要多久時間整理因為我們要從縣市裡面去一個一個去發文請他們回這表示說過去並沒有做相關的統計對不對縣市上報上我們就給他那我想這可能要詳實的來去確認因為這會影響到孩子的受教權我們可能要積極的跟進大概什麼時候可以給我這些資料多久"},{"start":697.338,"end":699.441,"text":"一個月好不好一個月好謝謝謝謝張雅琳委員質詢官員請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":935,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（12時35分）有請次長。"],["主席：請次長備詢，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：次長，在開始之前，我不知道你有沒有看到今天早上一個很大版面的新聞，就是有關於狼師，這個狼師就是班導，要女童雙腳打開給他偷拍，還有教練性侵害32個兒童90次，這個新聞我不曉得次長有沒有掌握？"],["張廖次長萬堅：今天還沒有看新聞，不過這種新聞我們都會注意。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒關係！那待會這份報紙，我也就留給次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝。"],["張委員雅琳：我想最重要的重點是，家長一直以來都有個訴求，過去在教育體系，學校是可以透過不適任教師的系統，去確認每一個他們招募的老師也好或是教練也好，是不是有符合不適任、有沒有任何的罪行、有沒有任何的犯罪證據、紀錄等等，但是其實家長完全是一無所知，過去我自己在處理校園狼師的案件或者是去年臺北市信義區幼兒園狼師的案件──毛畯珅，當時大家媒體都沒有在報導這個狼師，最主要是當時受限於兒少權法第六十九條不得揭露兒少事件身分資訊之相關規定，可是因為後來保護司司長有出來說，如果他符合公益，得適時揭露，所以我想要了解這個不適任教師查詢系統是不是也可以提供給家長來做查詢？因為有時候可能只有老師可以查，可是萬一這個狼師跑到另外一個學校，或是跑去外面開了工作室，其實家長真的完全不知道，這部分是可行的嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們有提過啦！但是有一些法規的部分，我們請人事處來了解一下。"],["黃副處長弘君：跟委員報告一下，目前的法規……"],["張委員雅琳：抱歉，我聽不太清楚。"],["黃副處長弘君：目前的法規並沒有規定可以開放學校以外的，就是一般人……"],["張委員雅琳：是不可以嗎？"],["黃副處長弘君：不可以。"],["張委員雅琳：不可以，好。因為我之前已經修了教育人員任用條例和教師法，但是我覺得在法還沒有通過之前，是不是還可以有更積極的作法，可能類似公告的方式，至少讓家長有跡可循。"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實過程裡面我看到很多個案，就是學校本身或是任用的機關在查核上……"],["張委員雅琳：任用是一個問題，他們可能沒有確實查核，可是有一些是……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，他沒有確實查核。"],["張委員雅琳：可能他們發現這個資訊只有老師們自己知道，家長不知道，所以這個有前科的不管是教練也好，或是老師也好，他跑去外面開工作室的時候，我們一般在外面的家長其實根本無從得知啦！"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實現在幾個比較容易發生狀況的，譬如說教練，譬如說這些才藝的老師……"],["張委員雅琳：課後班。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們其實現在都在加強這方面的通報系統以及確認系統，就是說儘量讓這個可能性降到最低，因為這個孩子他的表意權有限。"],["張委員雅琳：可是我覺得這個問題是來自於家長一而再、再而三看到這些案例，大家都非常的擔心。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，會恐慌啦！"],["張委員雅琳：會恐慌，所以我在想我們是不是可以適度的跟各縣市研商，看有沒有更積極的方式，可能是在各教育局上面公開這些資訊，讓家長至少可以知道，是不是可以試著去研商討論看看。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，這部分我們如果已經確定的，就是基於公益性的揭露，這部分的範圍其執行的結果我們來研商，好不好？我們來研商看看。"],["張委員雅琳：就是在我們現在可行的法條的狀況之下，再找找看還有沒有可以做的作法，這樣好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，查證上。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝，那這大概什麼時候可以有一個進度呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們跟業務單位來……"],["張委員雅琳：我們大概什麼時候可以再來跟教育部討論？"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為那個涉及到其他各部會。"],["張委員雅琳：也有各縣市吧？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們有一些法規，請業務單位來說明一下，有很多法規的限制。"],["黃副處長弘君：我們不適任查詢系統的部分實際上有很多的法規去……"],["張委員雅琳：我現在不是要你開放那個不適任查詢啊！我是說可不可以公告呢？你不用查詢，讓他公告出來就可以啊！"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想這部分我們來研究，好不好？"],["張委員雅琳：好啦、好啦，沒關係，我們事後再來保持聯絡啦，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想一個月內一定會有結果，好不好？"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝。再來是關於財劃法，今天其實很多委員都提出非常多的建議，都積極地想要為孩子爭取，我覺得這是一件好事！但是我想理想很豐滿，現實很骨感，國民黨應該很難料想到當時匆匆通過了這個財劃法之後，竟然會去傷害到我們可能許多的相關政策，因為據我所知，行政院已經粗估除了法定義務支出之外，可能要減28%，而且對相關的一些教育政策計畫可能會有些重大的影響，例如我們的一些少子女化對策、學輔法的專輔教師增置，還有中小學數位學習精進計畫等等，可能多少都會有一點影響，我知道現在還沒有定案，但是可能會有影響喔！我們之前第一會期其實已經開了公聽會，要來針對營養午餐的專法來做討論，但是我想時空背景已經完全不一樣了，甚至我都覺得是不是可能要重新來開公聽會，來蒐集大家的意見。","以現在來說，我們到底還有多少錢可以來做這件事情？我覺得應該是要比較務實的來討論，針對三章一Q的部分，我知道我們現在每一年的補助經費大概是40億，將近38億，等於每一年其實補助大概是74億，修法之後還要再26億嘛，但現在物價調漲，在財劃法的影響之下，我想知道到底明（115）年的概算上，針對三章一Q這個預算，到底影響是什麼？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我剛才其實也跟委員陸續報告，就是有比較穩定、確定的教育預算，對於我們過去的補助，它能夠穩定的提供，這個是比較好的，因為現在整個國家財政分配的方式，尤其是財劃法，或者是刪除凍結的一個模式，當然對教育部衝擊比較少，但財劃法這部分它確實會有一些衝擊，這部分的衝擊目前就處於不確定狀態，我講的就是說，你現在問我會少多少，我們只能概估，如果說有一些例行的國家政策，譬如說……"],["張委員雅琳：法定義務支出的部分。"],["張廖次長萬堅：很多都是國家政策，少子女政策也是國家政策，那到底行政院的態度對於整體的預算要怎麼切，少了28%、三千七百多億是要怎麼切，教育部要被切多少，我們現在要如何預估，我們目前也只能用推論的方式，據我所知道，我們內部業務單位其實5、6月在籌編計畫的時候，其實也在想每個單位如果都少30%的話，有哪些會優先減少，所以這個部分就是要跟地方講、要跟地方談，像國教補助款，國教署一年大概一千六百多億……"],["張委員雅琳：沒關係，因為我知道那部分不確定性還非常大，我想就針對於三章一Q這件事情，因為它比較類似於中央要做的事情。"],["張廖次長萬堅：三章一Q的話，這部分的補助也是要跟地方談啦！"],["張委員雅琳：這個部分也要談？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，因為營養午餐這個部分基本上真的是一個地方自治事項，我們過去用計畫來引導是因為當時的財劃法沒有修，當然中央的財源確實比較豐富，凍省之後，大部分的財源也統籌算到中央，對於過去國民教育階段的義務條件，我們儘量來支付。"],["張委員雅琳：了解，所以我聽起來，針對營養午餐這件事情，到底明年有多少錢可以來做其實是……"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以我說如果是處於不確定性的……"],["張委員雅琳：非常不確定就對了？"],["張廖次長萬堅：像財劃法這樣的衝擊處於不確定性……"],["張委員雅琳：還需要跟地方談嘛，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：財源不穩定，我們就必須要談，要談就會處在不確定性。"],["張委員雅琳：了解、了解，因為大家之前在討論營養午餐專法的時候，就是希望22個縣市不要有太多的落差，把所有東西一起拉回來在中央做，但是去年國民黨的財劃法大筆一揮，又把錢揮到地方去了，所以我們真的是需要好好的來跟地方……"],["張廖次長萬堅：剛才我說過……"],["張委員雅琳：對，好好的跟他的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：財劃法有的地方同意，有的地方不同意，我們……"],["張委員雅琳：沒錯，要好好來討論，我想作為一個立法委員，我們立法也要負起責任，這才是責任政治。","下一個部分，我想要跟體育署署長表達感謝，我在今年少年杯的競賽規則中，有看到頭頂球的蓄意使用進入了裁判的判決，這是一個非常好的進步，確保我們兒童的腦部不要在發育期間受到傷害，但是裁判到底如何判斷蓄意的部分，我不曉得這到底有沒有跟教練來做詳細的溝通呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我們正在跟足球協會做釐清，畢竟跟他們的規則有關，但我們往這個方向去，在賽事的部分，我們辦理的賽事其實也都是在下半年才算開始，所以這部分我還在處理當中，但我們是往這個方向。"],["張委員雅琳：因為家長都非常關心，到底小孩子怎麼樣叫做蓄意頭頂球，所以這個部分請麻煩跟教練做詳細的說明，才能夠確定我們執法時不會有任何的偏差。","最後一件事情，我就是簡單、快速講一下，我想讓次長看一下，陳傑憲在講他小時候，他其實非常希望在學業跟運動之間可以找到一個平衡，這樣他們會有好的球技，也會有紮實的知識基礎，讓所有的孩子在未來不管遇到什麼樣的挑戰都可以有更好的可能性。因為今天時間的關係，我來不及問到這一題，但是我接下來可能也會持續跟體育署及次長來詳細討論這個議題，先讓我用1分鐘要一個資料，我們現在其實有課輔相關的一些補助案，但我找不到相關的執行細項，好像體育署這邊也沒辦法給我，到底有多少人參加、多少班參加，這些實際校數的分配比在哪些縣市，我完全一無所知，是不是可以請體育署提供給我像這樣子的資料呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：應該沒問題吧。"],["張委員雅琳：可以嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那為什麼之前不給我呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是不是來不及整理？"],["張委員雅琳：我們之前要，為什麼不給我們呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：組長這邊可能需要整理。"],["張委員雅琳：需要多久時間整理？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，因為我們要對縣市一個一個去發文請他們回復。"],["張委員雅琳：這就表示過去並沒有做相關的統計，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：縣市政府報上來，我們就給他……"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["張委員雅琳：我想這可能要詳實的去確認，因為這會影響到孩子的受教權，你們可能要積極的跟進，大概什麼時候可以給我這些資料？"],["張廖次長萬堅：一個月好不好？"],["張委員雅琳：一個月，好，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來我們繼續進行質詢，請吳沛憶委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159479","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159479","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0f016e130910359cc56c3f89dc79e7a256c2779210393a1518c2082ecc2dcd8fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"12:35:55 - 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主席想請那個陳怡伶標準局的局長好 請陳局長"},{"start":24.94,"end":43.517,"text":"因為去年11月就在我們的經濟委員會就已經質詢過同一個主題了那上次我有請標檢局能不能盤點相關法規跟配套措施跟相關部會做討論看如何怎麼做跨部會的合作"},{"start":44.264,"end":57.816,"text":"那也希望標準局在後續交給我們一些相關報告所以在報告裡面我們比較沒有辦法看到就是說你們盤點缺乏的法規跟開會這兩個部分我是沒有看到的想問局長說這兩個部分有做嗎"},{"start":60.398,"end":82.671,"text":"那為什麼報告裡面沒有呈現這兩個東西所以如果有做的話那是不是會後應該要給我因為我說從去年11月就已經諮詢了然後要請你們交報告到現在這個報告裡面還缺這個先跟口頭跟委員報告一下我們在郭部長指示下2月份由部裡頭召開一個協調會議那也把速發部主管機關找來"},{"start":83.672,"end":101.588,"text":"那也把那個相關的那個電商平台都找來我們就是希望進一步找出委員所提的一些問題那我們如何加強我們在會議上都有充分討論好謝謝標準局做的事情不過我們也還是要問因為從你的報告裡邊如果你講說二月份郭部長已經找相關的部會來討論的話那先來問你的報告裡邊回覆竟然寫是跨電"},{"start":111.236,"end":131.087,"text":"跨境電商因為我國的法令無意外的效力固難以規範這件事情想問的是說我們當時要你盤的是如果法規上不足的要去定法所以我不知道說現在如果二月份開完會之後這個解決了嗎"},{"start":132.108,"end":161.145,"text":"沒有 因為那個跨境電商這個部分我們去了解 survey 一下全世界也沒有一個跨境電商的一個管理即使各國都截然那所以這一塊我們暫時沒有辦法有一個很具體的答案跟委員回報但是我們強調的是說如果東西一旦進到境內我們會加強做境內的管控那目前我們是朝這個方向在積極的一個處理那這個部分有跟委員報告過有一天也是到委員辦公室來這部分我們會持續加強做前市場跟後市場的管理"},{"start":161.425,"end":165.521,"text":"不過歐盟在2023年5月就正式通過一般產品的安全規範"},{"start":167.904,"end":189.5,"text":"GPSR這邊新規定在2024年12月也就是全面生效要求所有包含跨境電商的商品都要符合歐盟的安全標準所以你這個是不是應該要把它考量進去剛剛跟我回答說沒有可是今天歐盟他們已經做可能要去考慮這種比較積極性的做法"},{"start":194.083,"end":206.611,"text":"上次您提到這個GPSR我們有去了解那它現在是一個非常粗犯的一個規範事實上它真正要執行到執行端的那個細節都還沒有出來所以我們會持續挖取它的一個相關規範"},{"start":209.173,"end":223.383,"text":"那現在回收這一塊我想問一下就是這個發現違規是如何發現的就是是靠民眾檢舉投訴嗎然後每年回收改正的產品或兒童產品有多少"},{"start":224.847,"end":251.14,"text":"先跟委員報告一下我們機制上在商品檢驗法的規範下我們派員檢查有兩種一種是我們的同仁市場檢查一種是購樣檢測也就是說市場檢查是在市面上去看或者是網路上去查如果有商品檢驗法規範的它沒有陰屍檢驗的話我們就會可以依法通過是 那我說你們這樣做可是大概每年回收改正的產品或兒童產品有多少"},{"start":252.061,"end":262.941,"text":"我舉個例子我只要知道件數你們現在做到的是我舉個例子電商這一塊我們自從開始這樣子跟他合作之後我們下架大概一年有七八萬件"},{"start":264.209,"end":290.322,"text":"只要他發現是沒有預購的7、8萬件7萬多件那也要再提醒就是我們一直覺得宣導非常重要可是你的小安心粉專從2012年創立到現在13年那粉絲人數在5萬5所以我認為還是要再強化因為民眾他需要有知那可是他知道你們有這樣子的一個"},{"start":291.683,"end":308.319,"text":"資訊平台讓他們知道嘛還有一個積極檢驗這一塊也想請美季列為我們高風險的標的商品有哪些我們會定期公告我先標檢局網站上我找不到高風險商品檢驗公開資訊"},{"start":310.379,"end":332.388,"text":"我們會後再跟文這邊說明一下網站查詢的方式我們再跟文這邊說明那剛剛John回答說有7萬件可是我們現在去看到的是說今天我只針對兒童產品了解下架回收的狀況結果發現我們的召回的兒童產品平均一年只有一件"},{"start":333.653,"end":361.596,"text":"我剛剛報告的是下架的數量是7萬件那委員說的回收我們有數字因為我現在手邊沒有我會後再提供給辦公室這是我們在你們網站上找到的只有一件可是你去看美國CPSC他們才短短的現在才3月他們已經有38件所以我覺得這是不是應該要去考慮就比較積極的做法讓台灣產品都很安全才可以保障到我們兒童"},{"start":362.476,"end":388.982,"text":"那再來我們看到嬰屍檢項目這一塊就是標準局在給我報告當中現在總共33項可是足夠嗎因為我們看畫面上的這個嬰兒的車的風扇還有抽屜櫃的那個仿秦島的束帶那遮光捲簾這些目前都是美國CPSC裡面他們有已經提出一些警訊"},{"start":390.402,"end":412.683,"text":"會造成孩子手指夾傷或者是捲到脖子產生窒息的商品所以他們都已經有一些要求所以想問標檢局這種兒童產品的因試驗項目有逐年評估嗎你們評估機制是依據什麼人家事實上是有規劃有確定然後最後去做到然後從標檢局這邊可能就會有一些要求在"},{"start":413.243,"end":433.631,"text":"有跟我們報告一下我們那個英式檢驗商品有一定的那個程序在走每一年如果社會分社會關切像玩具這個就是過去幾年那個社會上一致的覺得它是一個高風險商品我們就把它列 主席像這些東西都有已經在如果美國他們已經有系統規劃已經知道這些商品所以對孩子產生傷害"},{"start":434.131,"end":444.077,"text":"是不是國內就應該要把列為英式檢驗項目可以 但是我們有一個程序會走就是要看到整個社會氛圍我們也要去知道國內的一個檢驗能量還有產業 從業界產業之間的一個協調才能作為英式檢驗的商品最後就是還是期待"},{"start":452.702,"end":476.751,"text":"趕快盤點現行法規不足當中裡面有沒有什麼可以接近其他國家的那還有兒童商品我還是期待你們事實上是如果我們這邊沒有的可是其他國外有產生對孩子傷害的應該還是列為隱私項目好我們朝這個方向再麻煩你這個可能一個月內給我相關的報告好謝謝謝謝委員辛苦了謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1199,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（12時36分）主席，我們想請陳怡鈴，標準局的局長。"],["主席：好，請陳局長。"],["陳局長怡鈴：委員早。"],["林委員月琴：局長午安。因為去年11月在經濟委員會就已經質詢過同一個主題了，上次我有請標準局能不能盤點相關法規跟配套措施、跟相關部會做討論，看如何來做跨部會的合作，也希望標準局在後續交給我們一些相關報告，可是在報告裡邊，我們比較沒有辦法看到，就是說你們盤點後缺乏的法規跟開會這兩個部分，我是沒有看到的，想問局長說這兩個部分有做嗎？"],["陳局長怡鈴：有，我們照郭部長的指示……"],["林委員月琴：為什麼報告裡邊沒有呈現這兩個東西？所以如果有做的話，是不是會後應該要給我？"],["陳局長怡鈴：好。"],["林委員月琴：因為我從去年11月就已經質詢了，然後要請你們交報告，到現在這個報告裡邊還缺這個……"],["陳局長怡鈴：是，先口頭跟委員報告一下，我們在郭部長指示下，2月份由部裡頭召開一個協調會議，也把數發部主管機關找來，也把相關的電商平台都找來，我們就是希望進一步找出委員所提的一些問題我們如何加強，我們在會議上都有充分討論。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝標準局做的事情，不過我們也還是要問，因為從你的報告裡邊，如果你說2月份郭部長已經找相關的部會來討論的話，先來問一下，你報告裡邊回復竟然是寫跨境電商因為我國的法令無域外的效力故難以規範，就這件事情想問的是，我們當時要你盤的是如果法規上不足的要去定法嘛！所以如果2月份開完會之後，這個解決了嗎？"],["陳局長怡鈴：沒有，因為跨境電商的部分，我們有去了解、survey一下，全世界也沒有一個跨境電商的管理機制，各國都皆然，所以這一塊我們暫時沒有辦法有一個很具體的答案，跟委員回報，但是我們強調的是，如果東西一旦進到境內，我們會加強做境內的管控，目前我們是朝這個方向在積極處理，這個部分有跟委員報告過，有一天也到委員辦公室來，這部分我們會持續加強做前市場跟後市場的管理。"],["林委員月琴：不過歐盟在2023年5月就正式通過一般產品的安全規範（GPSR），新規定在2024年12月全面生效，要求所有「包含」跨境電商的商品都要符合歐盟的安全標準，所以這個是不是應該要把它考量進去？剛剛跟我回答說沒有，可是今天歐盟他們已經做了，所以可能要去考慮這種比較積極性的作法。"],["陳局長怡鈴：有。"],["林委員月琴：第二個就是說……"],["陳局長怡鈴：跟委員補充一下，上次您提到GPSR，我們有去了解，它現在是一個非常粗泛的規範，事實上它真正要執行到執行端的細節都還沒有出來，所以我們會持續watch它的相關規範。"],["林委員月琴：好，再麻煩局長。下架回收這一塊，我想問一下，發現違規是如何發現的？是靠民眾檢舉投訴嗎？然後每年回收改正的產品或兒童產品有多少？"],["陳局長怡鈴：好，先跟委員報告一下，我們機制上，在商品檢驗法的規範下，我們派員檢查有兩種，一種是我們的同仁市場檢查，一種是購樣檢測，也就是說市場檢查是到市面上去看，或者是網路上去查，如果有商品檢驗法所規範的，它沒有應施檢驗的話，我們就可以依法處理。"],["林委員月琴：你們是這樣做，但每年回收改正的產品或兒童產品有多少？"],["陳局長怡鈴：我舉個例子，委員比較關心電商……"],["林委員月琴：我只要知道件數，你們大概現在做到的是多少？"],["陳局長怡鈴：我舉個例子，電商這一塊，我們自從開始這樣子跟它合作之後，我們大概一年下架7、8萬件，只要發現是沒有logo的。"],["林委員月琴：你說有多少件？"],["陳局長怡鈴：7、8萬件。"],["林委員月琴：17、18萬件？"],["陳局長怡鈴：7萬。"],["林委員月琴：7萬？"],["陳局長怡鈴：七萬多件。"],["林委員月琴：我也要再提醒，我們一直覺得宣導非常重要，可是你們的小安心粉專從2012年創立到現在有13年，粉絲人數在五萬五，所以我認為還是要再強化，因為民眾需要「知」，可是要讓他們知道你們有這樣子的一個資訊平臺。"],["陳局長怡鈴：了解。"],["林委員月琴：還有一個是積極檢驗這一塊，每季列為高風險的標的商品有哪些？"],["陳局長怡鈴：我們會定期公告，委員指的是？"],["林委員月琴：可是我現在在標檢局的網站上找不到高風險商品檢驗公開資訊耶！"],["陳局長怡鈴：我們會後再跟委員說明一下。"],["林委員月琴：好，再麻煩。"],["陳局長怡鈴：網路上的查詢方式我們再跟委員說明。"],["林委員月琴：好。剛才局長回答說有7萬件，今天我只針對兒童產品了解下架回收的狀況，結果發現召回的兒童產品平均一年只有1件，這個落差……"],["陳局長怡鈴：我剛剛報告的是下架的數量，是7萬件，而委員說的回收，我們有數字，因為我現在手邊沒有資料，我會後再提供給委員辦公室。"],["林委員月琴：這是我們在你們網站上找到的，只有1件，可是你去看美國的CPSC，才短短的幾個月，現在才3月，他們已經有38件，所以我覺得是不是應該考慮採取比較積極的作法？讓臺灣產品都很安全，才可以保障到我們的兒童。"],["陳局長怡鈴：好。"],["林委員月琴：再來，我們看到應施檢驗項目這一塊，標準局給我的報告當中，現在總共有33項，可是足夠嗎？因為我們看畫面上的嬰兒車風扇、抽屜櫃防傾倒約束帶及遮光捲簾，目前美國CPSC針對這些已經提出一些警訊，會造成孩子手指夾甲傷或是捲繞脖子產生窒息的商品，所以他們都已經有一些要求。請問標準局，這種兒童產品的應施檢驗項目有逐年評估嗎？你們評估的機制是依據什麼？人家事實上是有規劃、有確定，然後最後去做到，而標準局可能就會有一些要求。"],["陳局長怡鈴：有，跟委員報告一下，我們的應施檢驗商品有一定的程序在走，每一年如果社會關切的，像玩具就是過去幾年社會上一致覺得它是一個高風險商品，我們就把它逐步列檢。"],["林委員月琴：局長，現在這些東西都有，如果美國已經有系統規劃，已經知道這些商品會對孩子產生傷害，是不是國內就應該要把它列為應施檢驗項目？"],["陳局長怡鈴：可以，但是我們有一個程序會走，就是要看到整個社會氛圍，我們也需要知道國內的檢驗能量，還有產業之間的一個協調，才能作為應施檢驗的商品。"],["林委員月琴：最後，還是期待趕快盤點現行法規不足當中有沒有什麼可以借鏡其他國家的；至於兒童商品，我還是期待你們，如果是我們這邊沒有的，可是其他國外有產生對孩子傷害的，還是應該要列為應施檢驗項目。"],["陳局長怡鈴：好，我們朝這個方向努力。"],["林委員月琴：再麻煩你一個月內給我相關的報告。"],["陳局長怡鈴：好，我們蒐集一下。"],["林委員月琴：謝謝局長，辛苦了。"],["陳局長怡鈴：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","現在請黃國昌委員做詢答，黃國昌委員、黃國昌委員不在。","現在請王鴻薇委員做詢答，王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員不在。","現在請李坤城委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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辛苦你們了好 我想請問財化法財化已經通過了而且經過這個覆議嘛對吧 也經過我們在3月12號覆議那根據憲法增修條文的第三條第二項第二款的規定我們二分之一維持原決議你們就要接受行政院這邊行政院長要接受那接受以後我剛看到您在這個報告裡頭"},{"start":70.262,"end":84.828,"text":"第19頁有講到說你們接著會配合行政院做相關的政策會配合這個政策辦理那請問你這個相關的配套措施開始啟動了沒有"},{"start":86.857,"end":95.521,"text":"第一個財化法其實我們在復議裡面有提到許多自愛難行的部分那立法院已經復議通過了嘛復議就是沒有贊成復議嘛維持原案那這個部分呢我想後續會不會以什麼樣的合法合憲的程序在尋求救濟"},{"start":110.649,"end":137.616,"text":"那我們跟行政院都還在議論跟討論中那你們現在也應該開始要做相關的研議比如說比如說這個因為現在100現在11現在2025嘛2026的預算已經要開始在開始要3月份以後4月份就開始籌編了嘛相關的先期作業就要開始做了嘛那因應新的這個財化法的通過假設明年要開始實施的話即便你中間可能有一些救濟措施那你們也是必須要做準備吧"},{"start":138.775,"end":163.502,"text":"有沒有開始做相關的準備呢跟委員報告齊劃寶很重要一個就是說我們在做下一個年度的稅收的一個預估的時候就要計算出要給縣市政府多少錢當然要依照新通過的法令來依法行政那新分配的新的法律規定那接下來就是我怎麼分配給各地方政府我們那天在復議裡有說到就是說第一個先不要反復議說什麼"},{"start":164.842,"end":192.351,"text":"你現在新的就是原來的決議通過以後你沒有沒有開始再做按照新的採劃法的這個步驟往前走嗎那現在就是那個第一個他已經把那個分配辦法的授權的規定已經取消掉了所以財政部已經沒有辦法去訂水位的分配辦法沒有辦法訂分配辦法在我們回看到法案那就按照我們通過的這個採劃法按照營業稅百分之多少中央百分之多少地方什麼稅百分之多少按照這個來做這個統籌分貨款的分配嘛"},{"start":192.751,"end":213.718,"text":"是不是有這樣先把預算這樣開始框下來目前還沒有到算這個部分因為我們還沒有還在那個稅客收入的部分還沒有去做那幾月份可以開始做這樣的因為你們準備的地方也要準備您剛剛提到的是垂直分配就是這個稅的幾%對不對那可是在水平分配的部分我們那天提到第一個很多的公式不明確"},{"start":214.838,"end":236.697,"text":"好 你有的分不出去那百分之九十幾的沒有分出去有的百分之幾沒分出去因為它的計算就是這樣子分母跟分子它沒有對應到以至於加起來不等於百分之百財政部一向在如果有時候對法令不明確的時候很多單位如果是政府或民間對政府法令可能有疑義的時候你們也會有一些含釋或解釋嘛你們總是要往前走來"},{"start":237.358,"end":258.693,"text":"沒關係 這個先給你一個提醒 因為現在是三月份那你們在這個過程在籌編明天的預算要開始蓋算的時候你就要開始要有一些準備嘛 第二個所謂事權跟財權的這個調整嘛那哪一些事權財權的調整 我當初在這邊擔任召委也講嘛那實際上行政也要趕快提出來 比如說內政部可能覺得說哪些"},{"start":259.614,"end":283.04,"text":"哪些權利可能或者事項事項要交給地方辦理嘛應該也要再趕快提出來說在這個行政院院會裡頭提出來說那些相關事項要提出來如果要修法的我們大家也一起來協助嘛那其實你們應該跟地方趕快討論這個現在是計劃型補助款嘛因為我們依法我們這個新的條款通過一般性的補助款這個依法不得降低嘛這個很明確沒問題吧"},{"start":284.8,"end":304.444,"text":"這個通過這一條是明確的吧目前法律是這樣規定的對是明確的嘛當然依法我們當然都要依法然後明確嘛就計劃型補助款的這個調整方向我們看各部會的計劃型補助款一直增加但是我現在看到有的部會這個到時候主計來我也是會問有的部會已經開始在下公文給各個地方政府如果按照各地方的這個財力這個分級"},{"start":307.085,"end":335.168,"text":"收支這個分級的話 應該比如說統籌跟自備款 中央款跟自籌款如果講這三級是7比3 舉例7比2 8 7比3 舉例的話現在很多單位都在下公文說要求地方就要自籌50%這個問題現在事實上已經有在發生好像在計劃型補助款的部分這個可能你們也要注意一下這個相關的不會在這個部分是不是違法"},{"start":335.788,"end":357.643,"text":"因為它違法,但這不是你的問題,主計那邊我到時候會來請教他啦所以我也是建議你們既然這個服務域已經維持研究通過,趕快就往下要做準備還是要做準備當然你這個中間過程中,你的這個水平分配的部分如果各縣市政府有提出來,這個也是要盡快嘛我上次,組委長也跟我說,事實上也許還是有什麼"},{"start":358.864,"end":372.637,"text":"可以討論的嘛你們這個動作也要快啊我們從去年6月19、9月提出版本一直沒提出來現在又說可能有版本嘛那不管怎麼樣也是要趕快你們有一些對策要趕快出來大家好在立法院好好討論嘛這樣可以加快嗎"},{"start":374.775,"end":402.899,"text":"委員剛剛的許多的說法我們都了解比如說計劃型補助款要怎麼樣那個未來組總會會他會去算那另外就是財務法我們其實3月6號也已經開會了也提出了一些具體的那地方政府也有些意見以及專家學者意見我們都會這個納入以後一起來做參考考量這個要注意的因為時間一直在過去我想請教那個關務署關務署我們上回去進門考察的時候我們看到你們那個辦公廳是很老舊對吧那改善了沒有啊"},{"start":403.599,"end":413.533,"text":"在那麼危險的鋼筋裸露 改善完成了嗎鋼筋裸露的部分 金門港務處已經有派員要去施工了那前次我們金門縣港務處出的嗎"},{"start":415.562,"end":444.682,"text":"當然就金門縣補助關務署你們這個有錢單位不要每次都占地方的便宜好了反正是大家一起做事我們目前還沒有施工已經決定要幫你們做了就對了這個要叮囑請問這個房屋稅的問題這個新制的房屋稅2.07月1號實施去年實施今年5月1號開始要試用2.0它是規定自住住家用的就自住房屋要辦戶籍登記"},{"start":445.602,"end":446.242,"text":"有台灣人台灣島的"},{"start":466.832,"end":493.257,"text":"民眾他到金門去工作 他原來在台灣有房子因為他到金門去工作 他金門長期工作 也是公務人員那他就長期必須在這邊買房子那桌休業還是要回到原來他台灣的家嘛原來的房子 他戶口只能設在一個地方啊所以在這個情況下 那他又是單身請問一下這種情形要怎麼彌補呢包括我們金門鄉親也有啊 在金門有房子那在台灣也有 原因是因為我們就是必須這樣跑我們在地就是"},{"start":494.318,"end":519.796,"text":"就是比較辛苦沒有辦法住在台北就在台北工作住在金門就在就是有時候就會有這樣的困難點反向的時候因為有些機票的這個優惠沒有戶籍在金門也沒有辦法取得所以這個東西這種反應很多在金門地區反應很多有沒有什麼辦法呢可不可以研究一下這部分是不是可以請署長說一下沒有預算也可以徵稅的付稅署"},{"start":521.469,"end":541.486,"text":"那是五個國稅局國稅局沒辦法徵稅國稅局跟委員報告就是房屋稅差別稅例2.0的新制啊它在有關自住的部分是參考地價稅因為地價稅本來的規定就是如果你要享受自用住宅的優惠稅率一定要適合戶籍"},{"start":542.026,"end":558.928,"text":"我知道我知道但是現在的確在實行上遇到了實務上因為我們當初做這個我們當時希望抑制這個炒房不要讓大家到處買房子房價亂漲一通但是事實上的確有人是住在不是說金門像連南部也會有這種情形對吧"},{"start":559.909,"end":588.107,"text":"那你難道要大家都妻離子善嗎戶口全家拆成三戶就對了以前金門就是為了這個很多妻離子善家破人不亡那個只是戶籍而已啦不是真的家破人亡是但是戶籍那以離島地區來講如果戶籍沒有在金門買機票就比較貴啊回家一趟五千塊委員這個就是大家要所以會有遇到這種情形我了解針對像我們這樣的離島地區有沒有什麼樣的方案可以來想辦法來讓這個情形"},{"start":589.847,"end":597.593,"text":"因為這個是全國通用的一個制度其實本島也會有類似這樣的狀況因為你規定社務級嘛所以是不是還有其他的方法除了社務級外有沒有其他的方法可以因為這已經是法治了"},{"start":608.52,"end":627.638,"text":"沒關係修法我們會來一起來努力嘛但是大家是不是研究一下有沒有什麼其他的方法因為這樣反應的聲音的確是挺多的我想在座說明也很多有啊南部人啊在台北來工作但是也是要回去啊來回也是要有啊重點是要抑制炒房嘛不要讓每個人有一個人擁有太多房子嘛"},{"start":628.538,"end":654.459,"text":"那如果說家裡都拆戶籍事實上也違反戶籍法你知道嗎因為你不是真正的戶口設在那個你設在那個你事實上沒有居住在那個地方也是一種虛偽的戶籍的遷徙耶那個戶籍法是要罰錢的啊划算啊所以你來想看看沒關係齁我們今天那個時間我們還會再見面想看看有沒有什麼方法這個部分想一下齁那下一題網路的下次再問謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1191,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（12時29分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長好。我們總預算通過後，我聽到各個部會都在「哭呻」說這個沒有錢、那個沒有錢，預算被刪到這個沒辦法執行、那個沒辦法補助之類的，很多民眾都在問我說，怎麼從來沒有聽到賦稅署、國稅局出來喊一下，因為沒有錢、預算不足，所以沒有辦法向國人課稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，然後預算……"],["陳委員玉珍：很多民眾都在問我，每個單位都說這個沒錢、那個沒錢，就是沒有聽到賦稅署出來說沒有錢沒辦法課稅，所以賦稅署……"],["莊部長翠雲：課稅是法律規定。"],["陳委員玉珍：那錢不夠啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：賦稅署的同仁都……"],["陳委員玉珍：比較刻苦耐勞就對了！"],["莊部長翠雲：克勤克儉。但是也會……"],["陳委員玉珍：你們壓榨他們，這樣會不會造成霸凌？"],["莊部長翠雲：確實同仁就是變得有些辛苦。"],["陳委員玉珍：辛苦你們了。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：我想請問財劃法，財劃法已經通過了，而且經過覆議，經過我們在3月12號覆議，根據憲法增修條文第三條第二項第二款規定，我們二分之一維持原決議，你們就要接受，行政院院長要接受。那接受以後，我剛剛看到您在報告裡頭第19頁講到，你們接著會配合行政院做相關的政策，會配合政策辦理，請問相關的配套措施開始啟動了沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，財劃法其實我們在覆議裡面有提到許多窒礙難行的部分，當然最後……"],["陳委員玉珍：立法院已經依法覆議通過了嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：覆議就是沒有贊成覆議嘛！"],["陳委員玉珍：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：就是維持原案。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是維持原決議。"],["莊部長翠雲：對不對？維持原案。這個部分我想後續會不會以什麼樣的合法、合憲的程序再尋求救濟，我們跟行政院都還在研擬跟討論中。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們現在也應該開始要做相關的研議，比如說，因為現在是2025年嘛！2026年的預算在3月份以後，4月份要開始籌編，相關的先期作業就要開始做了，因應新的財劃法通過，假設明年要開始實施的話，即便你中間可能有一些救濟措施，你們也是必須要做準備吧？有沒有開始做相關的準備呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，財劃法很重要一個就是，我們在做下一個年度稅收預估的時候，就要計算出要給縣市政府多少錢，對不對？然後怎麼分配……"],["陳委員玉珍：公務人員當然要依照新通過的法令來依法行政嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，新分配的有新的法律規定，接下來就是我怎麼分配給各地方政府，我們那天在覆議理由說到，第一個，有很多公式……"],["陳委員玉珍：現在不要講覆議說什麼，現在就是原來的決議通過以後，你們有沒有開始在做，按照新的財劃法的步驟往前走嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：現在就是第一個，它已經把分配辦法的授權規定取消掉了，所以財政部已經沒有辦法去訂所謂的分配辦法，沒有辦法訂分配辦法，在我們回看到法……"],["陳委員玉珍：那就按照我們通過的財劃法，按照營業稅百分之多少、中央百分之多少、地方稅百分之多少，按照這個來做總籌備款的分配嘛！是不是有這樣先把預算匡下來？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前還沒有到「算」這個部分，因為我們還在稅課收入的部分，還沒有去做新的估算。"],["陳委員玉珍：幾月份可以開始做？因為你們準備，地方也要準備。"],["莊部長翠雲：您剛剛提到的是垂直分配，就是稅的百分之幾，對不對？可是在水平分配的部分，我們那天提到，第一個，很多公式不明確，有的分不出去，百分之九十幾的沒有分出去，有的百分之幾沒分出去，因為它的計算就是這樣子，分母跟分子沒有對應到，以致於加起來不等於百分之百。"],["陳委員玉珍：財政部一向有時候對法令不明確的時候，很多單位如果是政府或民間對政府法令可能有疑慮的時候，你們也會有些函釋或有些解釋，你們總是要往前走……"],["莊部長翠雲：解釋不能超過法律。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，這個先給你一個提醒，因為現在是3月份，你們在這個過程，籌編明年的預算要開始了，概算的時候就要開始要有一些準備。第二個，事權跟財權的調整，哪些事權、財權要調整，我當初在這邊擔任召委也講嘛！實際上行政院也要趕快提出來，比如說，內政部可能覺得哪些權力或者事項要交給地方辦理，應該也趕快在行政院院會裡提出，那些相關事項要提出來，如果要修法的，我們大家也一起來協助。其實你們應該跟地方趕快討論，現在是計畫型補助款，因為新的財劃法通過，一般性補助款依法不得降低，這個很明確，沒問題吧？通過這一條是明確的嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前法律是這樣規定的。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，是明確的，我們當然都要依法，明確嘛！就計畫型補助款的調整方向，我們看各部會的計畫型補助款一直增加，但是我現在看到有的部會……這個到時候主計來，我也是會問，有的部會已經開始在下公文給各個地方政府，如果按照各地方的財力分級、收支分級的話，應該比如說，中央款與自籌款假設是7比3，舉例的話，現在很多單位都在下公文要求地方就要自籌50%，這個問題現在事實上已經有在發生，好像在計畫型補助款的部分，這個可能你們也要注意一下相關部會在這個部分是不是違法，但這不是你的問題，主計那邊我到時候會來請教他。所以我也是建議你們，既然這個覆議已經維持原決議通過，趕快就往下，要做準備還是要做準備。當然這中間過程中，水平分配的部分如果各縣市政府有提出來，也是要儘快嘛！上次卓院長也跟我說，事實上也許還是有什麼可以討論的，你們動作也要快，我們從去年6月要求9月提出版本，一直沒提出來，現在又說可能有版本嘛！不管怎麼樣也是要趕快，你們有一些對策要趕快出來，大家好在立法院好好討論，這樣可以加快嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，剛剛的許多說法我們都了解，比如說，計畫型補助款要怎麼樣，那個未來主總會去算。另外就是財劃法，我們其實3月6號也已經開會了，提出了一些具體的……地方政府也有些意見，以及專家學者的意見，我們都會納入以後一起來做參考、考量。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個要注意，因為時間一直過去。","我想請教關務署。關務署，我們上回去金門考察的時候，我們看到你們的辦公廳舍很老舊，對吧？改善了沒有？那麼危險，鋼筋裸露，改善完成了嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，鋼筋裸露的部分，金門港務處已經有派員要施工了，不過現在還在評估……"],["陳委員玉珍：錢是我們金門縣港務處出的嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：當然是。"],["陳委員玉珍：結果金門縣補助關務署，你們這個有錢單位不要每次都占地方的便宜，好啦！反正是大家一起做事。"],["彭署長英偉：目前還沒有施工，還在評估……"],["陳委員玉珍：已經決定要幫你們做就對了，是不是？這個要盯住。"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：下一個請問房屋稅的問題，新制的房屋稅2.0於去年7月1號實施，今年5月1號開始要適用，2.0是規定自住住家用房屋（自住房屋）要辦竣戶籍登記，今年3月24號以前要辦竣戶籍登記才符合自用住宅，對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我們是……"],["陳委員玉珍：然後你們的規定是，認定標準可以有3戶，本人、配偶及未成年子女可以有3戶，但是要設戶籍，對吧？好，你們有沒有考慮到像離島這樣的情形，比如說有臺灣人，就是臺灣島的民眾到金門工作，他原來在臺灣有房子，因為他到金門工作，在金門長期工作，是公務人員，他就必須在那邊買房子，週休二日還是要回到原來他臺灣的家嘛！原來的房子，他戶口只能設在一個地方，所以在這個情況下，他又是單身，請問一下這種情形要怎麼彌補呢？包括我們金門鄉親也有啊！在金門有房子，在臺灣也有，原因是因為我們就是必須這樣跑，我們在地就是比較辛苦，沒有辦法住在臺北就在臺北工作，住在金門有時候就會有這樣的困難點，然後返鄉的時候因為有些機票的優惠，沒有戶籍在金門也沒有辦法取得，所以這種反映很多，在金門地區的反映很多，有沒有什麼辦法呢？可不可以研究一下解決辦法？"],["莊部長翠雲：這部分是不是可以請署長說明一下。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，署長回應一下。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員……"],["陳委員玉珍：就是沒有預算也可以徵稅的賦稅署。"],["宋署長秀玲：沒有，是五個國稅局，賦稅署沒辦法徵稅。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，國稅局。"],["宋署長秀玲：跟委員報告，房屋稅差別稅率2.0的新制，在有關自住的部分是參考地價稅，因為地價稅本來的規定就是如果要享受自用住宅的優惠稅率，一定要設戶籍。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，但現在的確在實行上遇到了實務上的問題，因為當初這麼做當然是希望抑制炒房，不要讓大家到處買房子，房價亂漲一通。"],["宋署長秀玲：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：但事實上的確有人是住在……不只是金門，連南部也會有這種情形嘛，對吧？那難道要大家都妻離子散嗎？戶口全家拆成三戶就對了，以前金門就是為了這個，很多是妻離子散、家破人不亡。"],["宋署長秀玲：那個只是戶籍而已啦，不是真的家破人亡、妻離子散。"],["陳委員玉珍：是，但以離島地區來講，如果戶籍沒有在金門，買機票就比較貴啊，回家一趟要5,000塊。"],["宋署長秀玲：委員，這個就是大家要權衡……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以會遇到這種情形……"]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有請國務部長國務部長在正式主席只有今天的主席之前 我想請教你 你支持企業造假嗎你直接回答"},{"start":25.225,"end":49.892,"text":"我怎麼可能支持企業造假那我把企業造假這幾個字丟在Google裡面我們可以看到很多東西檢驗公司勾結營造商驗收造假台塑集團造假空污數據檢測公司檢驗血產品造假甚至部長您也被指稱說財報造假所以我現在請教部長您現在是在經濟部長這個位置您再問一次您支持企業造假嗎"},{"start":53.68,"end":73.545,"text":"您說您支持協造假嗎報告委員我剛才已經回答您的問題了嘛部長這是2019年8月報導者的系列報導reporter環境檢測機構比起本身排放污染的這個工廠更容易被政府這個處罰你看過這個報導嗎你看過你知道為什麼會這樣嗎排放污染工廠"},{"start":80.729,"end":100.947,"text":"環境檢測機構前者比較容易被處罰你知道為什麼嗎部長你知道為什麼嗎我是建議你去看這個報告你知道為什麼嗎這個不是經濟部所屬的範圍這是個概念部長環境檢測機構因為他受業者委託嘛拿人的手軟吃人的嘴軟嘛所以他會去幫業者去美化"},{"start":102.588,"end":129.208,"text":"這個污染數據躲避政府的稽查結果他們本來應該是公正的檢測者結果他們現在變成污染的遮羞布那所以為什麼當時環境部環境檢驗所他們去稽查的時候很多檢查機構檢測機構都被處罰了為什麼業界會這樣呢普遍存在業界我必須說政府跟國營事業帶頭違法作假要負起最大的責任我先請問部長假設"},{"start":131.649,"end":143.674,"text":"國營事業造假你會徹查嗎假設的問題假設如果有人作假你會去徹查嗎我回答委員的問題如果是事實"},{"start":144.864,"end":150.088,"text":"我支持你的這個檢舉 但是假設的問題 我不允許評論我們不能夠在這個地方討論這個假設的問題如果委員你認為他有造假 他是個事實 請你去告他嘛我問你的國營事業造假 你辦不辦"},{"start":168.997,"end":176.522,"text":"我這是依法辦理啊上週五好不要批了上週五我在總質詢公開向左院長揭發台電協和電廠市街突然污染造假你當時也在備詢台上請問你後來有去了解這件事嗎"},{"start":184.226,"end":188.15,"text":"左院黨答應我做行政調查你後來有去了解這件事嗎你後來有去了解這件事嗎我們當然有去了解嘛好 你有去了解 你沒有藐視國會簡報上是2019、2012、2022內部的"},{"start":200.922,"end":230.011,"text":"台電內部的土壤這個調查報告我手上有好幾份同樣的監測點有多次出現土壤重金屬污染但台電都對外隱瞞其中有一份我在環評開會2月26號的前一天我新聞我新聞到這個我新聞到環境部那當然環境部都還沒有大大剌剌的這個碾壓過去這是他們要負責的部分但是我請教你你有向台電要求看這幾份報告嗎"},{"start":231.189,"end":252.07,"text":"報告委員我是不是可以請完全還原事實的台電總經理跟你報告好嗎現在我只要問你我在總諮詢都提出這幾份報告而且是新的2019、2022我們台電的同仁願意來跟你講真正的事實嗎部長不然你想想看我下面這個部分好台電"},{"start":254.472,"end":255.513,"text":"您的簡報是顧問公司的不是我們台電接受的這是接避者給我的資料"},{"start":275.455,"end":283.198,"text":"這個台電利用所謂的自主調查它在正式的環評調查 自己先先偷做了現在我再看一個資料請你尊重我的發言權就是說12月的時候正式要做環評的檢測但是在9月就偷做了先自己所謂的你的自主性調查所以你們知道結果了在11月的時候你們內部的工作會議上面寫的什麼"},{"start":304.562,"end":314.748,"text":"超標濃度不高的你就翻土的方法處理翻一翻稀釋掉沒事好最嚴重的是下一個你已經知道很多污染點你採過59個點位也採樣過160幾個點位發現有污染的位置正式調查時可以移點避開再來採樣檢測天吶"},{"start":327.301,"end":353.712,"text":"天啊報告委員你是不是讓委員到你的辦公室給你做一個比較事實的給你報告因為很多的人其實他提出來給你的資料可能不過那麼詳實我們讓我們自己的單位跟你直接報告直接反映你的問題但是委員你都不接受我們的事實報告那你一直用你這個別人給你的資料不見得是正確的那你可以提來"},{"start":354.452,"end":365.021,"text":"我必須監督行政單位你看最後環評得到什麼資料所以我們已經有事實要跟你報告我已經告訴你2019、2012、2022我也找到內部的資料告訴我們你們處理了好 這一副資料是最後你們看到的資料這個你們最後看到什麼ND用一個點 一個點位採測"},{"start":376.091,"end":386.14,"text":"這個是根據他的法律的規定 我們這樣子做嘛我們是依法行事 報告委員 我們是依法行事所以你不能夠這樣子 你能不能看看TPH就是這個污染指標 重金屬 氮二辛 超標原動 灌紅色的字紅色的就是超標喔 大家在場大家都會看好 繼續看 你看"},{"start":400.515,"end":406.427,"text":"這個總時有天津化合物多入連本上一頁有多入連本逆都是超標的紅色好 再下一張"},{"start":408.219,"end":431.849,"text":"這個重金屬都是超標的這個都是你們的報告你們的報告這一份最後一頁部長這一部也是你們內部報告第三章污染污染細部調查結果你看倒數第二行還有多鹿連本都出現了在這剛剛我在第一頁的時候有告訴你多鹿連本有那麼毒的四季就多鹿連本都出現了"},{"start":433.411,"end":452.828,"text":"結果呢 協和電廠台電他的決定不是好好整治這個東西在規避 規避這個資料我們認為你現在所指責的這個部分可能都是有一些資訊上面不足的地方我們是不是可以拿真正的我們內部的地方到你的辦公室跟你做一個"},{"start":453.288,"end":470.875,"text":"我們來做行政調查 我們要求全面的報告但是你在這個地方指責我們的東西好像跟我們認知是有很大的差異跟事實有很大的差異在這裡我要跟您報告您的資料跟我們的事實有很大的差異"},{"start":472.52,"end":474.681,"text":"部長核心資料沒有給第六章空缺直接開會開會的時候環評是17比0通過環評法有環評法的程序又來了你說土屋法我告訴你第17條第二項很清楚你這個土屋法要開"},{"start":489.51,"end":495.355,"text":"要進行土地再利用的時候有一些限制凡是受到這個環評法規定有害明明就是扣連的明明就是扣連的法規不然為什麼世界環評委員要求看土壤的這個偵測報告為什麼第二階段的環評委員也是要求看如果不重要為什麼世界開發案要求看環評委員要求看資料結果你們隱瞞"},{"start":517.131,"end":526.609,"text":"是經濟部自己要求這樣做 還是台電自己做的我歡迎你到這個法院去提告這個是公開的事情是 歡迎你到法院去提告嘛"},{"start":527.472,"end":550.81,"text":"好不好 我跟你講說我們是事實要跟你報告你不接受那你用一個虛無的東西來指責我 我用虛無的東西部長你講話小心喔這是你們內部揭秘者 我們民眾團體所揭秘的保護法現在已經順利喔 你講的跟你所指責的部分是非常奇怪的事實啊我要跟你報告事實 你不接受那我怎麼 部長你的事實 我給的是證據我給的是書面報告 我給的是數字檢查我給的是檢驗數字 我有日期"},{"start":557.557,"end":578.483,"text":"你現在索賠說你有指控我這個是假的嗎不是我建議你如果你認為他是事實嘛我建議你到法院去提報我們來做行政辦你現在就要訴訟法我們要做行政調查卓院長已經親口在總執行答應我做這個行政調查你敢配合嗎我們當然配合好那我現在要求那個市街開發案的現場封閉不動我懷疑台電現在就在處理"},{"start":584.125,"end":600.912,"text":"他敢翻土他敢疑點他現在在處理中先封閉可以嗎封閉現場不動不要讓他有機會作弊可以嗎這小事啊報告委員可以吧可以吧我們都不需要依現在的法令行事我就是跟你談法我跟你談土無法我跟你談環評法"},{"start":603.148,"end":608.154,"text":"可以吧 你可以答應這件事吧現場開發案先封閉起來就跟命案一樣先封閉起來你就算做一個這麼大的開發案 你要讓人民服氣嘛這個資料是新發現資料 被隱藏的資料嘛"},{"start":618.527,"end":630.351,"text":"你講得非常正確所以我們在開發前一定會按照你所做的事情在處理好那先把這個場地封閉起來可以嗎讓他沒有機會作弊我們不能夠去封閉場地我們是根據什麼法去封閉這個場地啦"},{"start":634.54,"end":656.357,"text":"有問題我們有新市政啊不是 你要取 我可以依循的法給我做啊這是行政 行政這個根本不用依法你們暫停 因為有問題暫停不要讓排電人員進去這個不用動到法律麻煩你找到一個我可以做的法令給我我一定依據你所提出來的我來做嘛你從頭到尾都在講空話"},{"start":660.319,"end":682.057,"text":"不要 我沒有那個意思喔 我只是說請你告訴我們我們應該怎麼走但是必須要有法令的依據嘛是不是我們一直都是依法在行事嘛我就告訴你土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土土"},{"start":688.619,"end":700.602,"text":"陳超市委員不好意思部長今天我今天開記者會你們台電不敢來經濟部不敢來環保局環保環境部來了為什麼歸縮不敢出現敢做不敢當敢做不敢當"},{"start":702.486,"end":721.229,"text":"不敢來啊不敢參加記者會啊不敢來啊不願意嗎不害怕嗎不敢嗎沒有這種規定說來就是敢來不敢來然後我想這個這個討論好像超過一般的大家的認知結果你們不出現現在你跟我說要依法我就是要告訴你法令啊"},{"start":721.738,"end":735.525,"text":"好 那如果說你可以說我今天哪一條法令說我們一定要配合去我們就會依法行事啦法令 依法人員的職責就可以監督行政機關啊這個法令就一直都存在啊部長 不要藐視國會 不要講空話我不可能藐視國會"},{"start":743.001,"end":754.708,"text":"我們也不會藐視國會我們都是在法令的法的基礎之下行事我們一定在法的基礎之下行事我們也不會藐視國會也不敢藐視國會"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1070,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（12時23分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，在正式進入今天的主題之前，我想請教你，您支持企業造假嗎？你直接回答。"],["郭部長智輝：我怎麼可能支持企業造假。"],["陳委員昭姿：好。我把「企業造假」這幾個字丟在Google裡面，我們可以看到很多東西，檢驗公司勾結營造商的驗收造假、台塑集團造假空污數據、檢測公司檢驗水產品造假，甚至部長也被指稱財報造假，所以我現在請教部長，您現在是在經濟部長這個位置，再問一次，您支持企業造假嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我剛才已經回答您的問題了嘛。"],["陳委員昭姿：好、好。部長，這是2019年8月報導者（The Reporter）的系列報導，環境檢測機構比起本身排放污染的工廠更容易被政府處罰，你看過這個報導嗎？你知道為什麼會這樣嗎？排放污染工廠、環境檢測機構，後者比較容易被處罰，部長，你知道為什麼嗎？我是建議你去看這個報導，你知道為什麼嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個不是經濟部所屬的範圍。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是一個概念，部長，因為環境檢測機構受業者委託，拿人的手短，吃人的嘴軟，所以它會幫業者去美化污染數據、躲避政府的稽查，結果他們本來應該是公正的檢測者，結果他們現在變成污染的遮羞布，所以為什麼當時環境部環境檢驗所去稽查的時候，很多檢查機構、檢測機構都被處罰了，為什麼業界會這樣呢？這普遍存在於業界，我必須說政府跟國營事業帶頭違法作假，要負起最大的責任。我先請問部長，假設國營事業造假，你會徹查嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：假設的問題我……"],["陳委員昭姿：假設、如果有人作假，你會去徹查嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我回答委員的問題，如果是事實，我支持你的檢舉……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，如果造假成立……"],["郭部長智輝：但是假設的問題，我不予評論。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你不要跟我玩話術，如果……"],["郭部長智輝：我們不能夠在這個地方討論假設的問題。"],["陳委員昭姿：如果真的出現造假……"],["郭部長智輝：如果委員認為它有造假，這個是事實……"],["陳委員昭姿：不是我認為！如果有證據……"],["郭部長智輝：請你去告它嘛！好不好？我們國內有法律的規範啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：我是問你國營事業造假，你辦不辦？"],["郭部長智輝：我這是依法辦理啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，不要提了。上週五我在總質詢公開向卓院長揭發台電協和電廠四接土壤污染事實造假，你當時也在備詢臺上，請問你後來有去瞭解這件事嗎？卓院長答應我做行政調查，你後來有去瞭解這件事嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我請台電或者國營事業去辦。"],["陳委員昭姿：你後來有去瞭解這件事嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然有去瞭解嘛！"],["陳委員昭姿：好，你有再去瞭解，你沒有藐視國會。簡報上是2019、2021、2022年台電內部的土壤調查報告，我手上有好幾份，同樣的監測點有多次出現土壤重金屬污染，但台電都對外隱瞞，其中有一份是我在環評開會2月26號的前一天，我行文到環境部，當然環境部在環評會大剌剌地輾壓過去，這是他們要負責的部分，但是我請教你，你有向台電要求看這幾份報告嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我是不是可以請完全還原事實的台電總經理跟你報告，好嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：現在我只要問你，我在總質詢時提出這幾份報告，而且是新的，包括2019、2021、2022……"],["郭部長智輝：是，以我們所瞭解的程度，台電的同仁願意來跟你講真正的事實嘛。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有，部長，不然你現在看我下面的這個部分。你看台電及泰興用「移點、翻土」，這是來自揭弊者給我的資料，右邊是內部工作的報告封面，左邊是建議跟結論，我就直接看好了，泰興工程……"],["郭部長智輝：您的這個簡報是顧問公司的，不是我們台電接受的。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是揭弊者給我的資料。台電利用所謂的自主調查，在正式的環評調查前，自己先偷做了……"],["郭部長智輝：是不是請揭弊者來這個地方講？"],["陳委員昭姿：現在先看這份資料，請你重視！請你尊重我的發言權！12月的時候，正式要做環評檢測，但是在9月就偷做了，先自己進行所謂的自主性調查，所以你們知道結果了，在11月的時候，你們內部的工作會議上面寫著：超標濃度不高的，就用翻土的方法處理，翻一翻、稀釋掉，沒事。最嚴重的是下一個，你已經知道有很多污染點，你採樣過59個點位，也採樣過一百六十幾個點位，發現有污染的位置，在正式調查時可以移點、避開，再來採樣檢測，天啊！天啊！這是內部資料，你聽完內部資料……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，是不是讓我們到你的辦公室跟你做一個比較事實的報告……"],["陳委員昭姿：我一連串告訴你，這就是為什麼……"],["郭部長智輝：因為很多的人，其實他提出來給你的資料可能不是那麼詳實，我們讓自己的單位跟你直接報告、直接還原問題嘛！"],["陳委員昭姿：這是你們的資料，我們要得很辛苦，後來你們也給了！"],["郭部長智輝：但是委員都不接受我們的事實報告，你一直用別人給你的資料，這不見得是正確的，然後你提來……"],["陳委員昭姿：你要拿去查啊！我必須監督行政單位。你看最後環評得到什麼資料？"],["郭部長智輝：我們已經有事實要跟你報告，你又不接受，這樣子的話，我也不知道怎麼做合理的討論啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：我已經告訴你有2019、2021、2022年的資料，我也找到內部的資料告訴我們，你們處理了。這一份是最後你們看到的資料，你們最後看到什麼？「N.D.」（not detectable），用一個點位採測，然後說沒事、沒事……"],["郭部長智輝：這是根據其法令的規定，我們這樣子做嘛！我們是依法行事。報告委員，我們是依法行事，所以你不能夠這樣子……"],["陳委員昭姿：不然你再來看下面的報告，你們看看污染指標TPH、重金屬、戴奧辛超標嚴重，即紅色的字……"],["郭部長智輝：你不能夠跳出法的規定來講這件事嘛。"],["陳委員昭姿：紅色的字就是超標喔！在場的大家都可以看到。繼續看，你看總石油碳氫化合物及多氯聯苯；多氯聯苯、鎳都是超標的，即紅色字；重金屬都是超標的，這個都是你們的報告，看這一份的最後一頁，部長，這也是你們內部報告，第3章土壤污染細部調查結果，你看倒數第二行，還有多氯聯苯都出現了，剛剛我在第一頁的時候有告訴你，多氯聯苯，那麼毒的世紀之毒都出現了，結果呢？協和電廠、台電，它的決定不是好好整治這個土地……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：在規避這個資料。"],["郭部長智輝：我們認為你現在所指責的這個部分，可能都是有一些資訊上面不足的地方，我們是不是可以拿真正的我們內部的資料到你的辦公室跟你做一個……"],["陳委員昭姿：你可以做行政調查……"],["郭部長智輝：比較全面的報告……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們要求行政調查可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：但是你在這個地方，你現在在這邊指責我們的東西……"],["陳委員昭姿：環評當天、環評當天，我們覺得……"],["郭部長智輝：好像跟我們認知是有很大的差異，跟事實也有很大的差異。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，環評大會當天的程序……"],["郭部長智輝：在這裡我要跟您報告……"],["陳委員昭姿：漏掉了核心資料。"],["郭部長智輝：您的資料跟我們的事實有很大的差異。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，核心資料沒有給，第六章空缺，直接開會，開會的時候環評是17比0通過。"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，環評法有環評法的程序……"],["陳委員昭姿：又來了，你說土污法……"],["王總經理耀庭：土地污染法有土地污染法的程序……"],["陳委員昭姿：我告訴你，第十七條第二項很清楚……"],["王總經理耀庭：我們那天是在……"],["陳委員昭姿：你這個土污法要進行土地再利用就有一些限制，受到這個環評法規定有害……"],["王總經理耀庭：所以我們土地污染再利用的時候全面會檢測……"],["陳委員昭姿：明明就是扣連的，明明就是扣連的法規，不然為什麼……"],["王總經理耀庭：每一個時間點會做……不同的時間點做不同的事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：四接環評委員要求看土壤的偵測報告，為什麼第二階段的環評委員也是要求看，如果不重要，為什麼四接開發案環評委員要求看資料，結果你們隱瞞？是經濟部自己要求這樣做還是台電自己作主？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，如果您的認知是這樣子，我歡迎你到法院去提告。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個是公開的事情。"],["郭部長智輝：是，歡迎你到法院去提告嘛！好不好？我跟你講說我們有事實要跟你報告，你不接受，那你用一個虛無的東西來指責我……"],["陳委員昭姿：我用虛無的東西？部長你講話小心喔！這是你們內部揭弊者提供的，我們民眾黨提出揭弊者保護法，現在已經成立了……"],["郭部長智輝：你講的跟你所指責的部分是非常奇怪的事實，我要跟你報告事實，你不接受，那我怎麼跟你討論？"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我給的是證據、我給的是書面報告、我給的是數字檢查、我給的是檢驗數字，我有日期，你現在要指控我這個是假的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我建議你，如果你認為它是事實嘛，我建議你到法院去提告。"],["陳委員昭姿：你現在就要訴諸法律……我們要做行政調查，卓院長在總質詢已經親口答應我做行政調查，你敢配合嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然配合。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那我現在要求四接開發案的現場封閉不動，我懷疑台電現在就在處理，它敢翻土、它敢移點，它現在在處理中，先封閉可以嗎？封閉現場，不動，不要讓它有機會作弊可以嗎？這小事啊！可以吧？可以吧？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們都必須要依現在的法令行事。"],["陳委員昭姿：我就是在跟你談法，我跟你談土污法，我跟你談環評法，可以吧？你可以答應這件事吧？開發案現場先封閉起來。"],["王總經理耀庭：開發前我們會做所有的土壤監測……"],["陳委員昭姿：就跟發生命案一樣先封閉起來，你就算做一個這麼大的開發案，你也要讓人民服氣嘛！這個資料是新發現資料、被隱藏的資料嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是，你講得非常正確，所以我們在開發前一定會按照你所說的事情在處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，那先把這個場地封閉起來，可以嗎？讓它沒有機會作弊，讓我們去作調查……"],["郭部長智輝：我們不能夠去封閉場地，我們是……報告委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：基隆市政府會去作調查，環境部會去監督。"],["郭部長智輝：我們是根據什麼法去封閉這個場地啦？"],["陳委員昭姿：有問題，我們有新事證啊！"],["郭部長智輝：不是，你要舉我可以依循的法給我做啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：這是行政，這個跟法……不用依法……"],["郭部長智輝：你沒有開一個法給我，我要怎麼做啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：你們的部分有問題，暫停，不要讓台電人員進去，這個不用動到法令。"],["郭部長智輝：麻煩你找到一個我可以做的法令給我，好不好？"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你很過分喔！你藐視國會喔！"],["郭部長智輝：我一定依據你所提出來的來做嘛！"],["陳委員昭姿：我提出那麼多資料給你，你從頭到尾都在講空話。"],["郭部長智輝：你不要，我沒有那個意思喔！我只是說請你告訴我們，我們應該怎麼走。"],["陳委員昭姿：我早就行文了。"],["郭部長智輝：但是必須要有法令的依據嘛！是不是？我們一直都是依法在行事嘛！"],["陳委員昭姿：我就告訴你土污法、環評法。"],["郭部長智輝：對，我知道……"],["陳委員昭姿：我給你資料、證據、我給你內部的證據……"],["郭部長智輝：但是我的意思就是說……"],["陳委員昭姿：你還在跟我空談。"],["郭部長智輝：你現在講說要我能夠控制……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長……"],["主席：好，陳昭姿委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：不好意思，部長……"],["主席：質詢結束了嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：我今天開記者會，你們台電不敢來、經濟部不敢來，環境部來了，為什麼龜縮不敢出現、敢做不敢當？不敢來啊！不敢參加記者會啊！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有這種規定。"],["陳委員昭姿：不敢來啊！不願意嗎？不害怕嗎？不敢嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有這種規定說來就是敢來或是不敢來，然後我想這個討論好像有超過大家一般的認知啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，這個邏輯讓大家聽一下，我提了這麼多證據，結果你們不出現，現在你跟我說要依法，我就是要告訴你法令啊！"],["郭部長智輝：好，如果您可以說我今天哪一條法令說我們一定要配合，我們就會依法行事啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：法令，立法委員的職責就可以監督行政機關啊！這個法令一直都存在啊！"],["郭部長智輝：是監督啊！但是沒有叫我們去啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，不要藐視國會、不要講空話。"],["郭部長智輝：我不可能藐視國會，我們也不會藐視國會。"],["陳委員昭姿：你講的都是空話，我給的都是證據，我今天給的都是證據……"],["郭部長智輝：我們都是在法令的、法的基礎之下行事……"],["陳委員昭姿：你們連記者會都不出席。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們一定在法的基礎之下行事，我們也不會藐視國會，也不敢藐視國會。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我們後續來談法、我們後續來談法。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","我們現在請林月琴委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","郭國文","陳昭姿","林月琴","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","徐富癸","羅智強","陳超明","林德福","牛煦庭","蔡易餘"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00004"}}},{"id":"159476","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159476","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb009a89b2d8f0f34b601b4bb3d6676f3fd6c2779210393a1511c7a1f58fb7c6e965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:24:15 - 12:35:03","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T12:24:15+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T12:35:03+08:00","duration":648,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.9590937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.801593750000002,"end":12.164093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.193468750000001,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.931593750000001,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.57284375,"end":17.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.47971875,"end":26.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.41534375,"end":24.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.05221875,"end":26.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.457218750000003,"end":72.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.626593750000005,"end":50.453468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.71159375,"end":76.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.13284375,"end":80.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.08159375000001,"end":105.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.53346875000001,"end":105.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.95534375000001,"end":162.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.98909375000001,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.62159375000002,"end":195.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.37159375000002,"end":215.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.94659375,"end":269.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.28409375,"end":283.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.17971875,"end":290.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.82096875,"end":304.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.70909375,"end":316.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.82534375,"end":325.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.49909375000004,"end":327.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.01346875,"end":333.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.35846875000004,"end":336.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.02909375,"end":342.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.96471875000003,"end":351.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.66034375000004,"end":347.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.51159375000003,"end":354.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.84471875,"end":359.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.77284375000005,"end":356.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.83971875000003,"end":369.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.69471875000005,"end":370.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.40346875,"end":371.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.38221875000005,"end":404.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.99784375,"end":374.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.86846875000003,"end":392.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.49971875,"end":402.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.73159375,"end":403.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.27159375,"end":460.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.76909375,"end":462.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.60846875000004,"end":465.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.15221875000003,"end":469.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.98284375000003,"end":512.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.07534375000006,"end":472.14284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.26096875,"end":472.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":512.6428437500001,"end":540.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.6984687500001,"end":534.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.53721875,"end":548.5022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":547.9622187500001,"end":568.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.0122187500001,"end":552.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.7578437500001,"end":559.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.97721875,"end":560.0615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.93784375,"end":585.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.6628437500001,"end":573.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":573.6797187500001,"end":574.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":575.5022187500001,"end":575.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.9240937500001,"end":575.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":576.68346875,"end":576.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.97034375,"end":577.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":577.2065937500001,"end":577.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5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有請次長請次長備質詢 謝謝"},{"start":16.367,"end":37.423,"text":"市長今天如果說我們要為我們的營養午餐來立一步法我想很多與時俱進的觀念很未來性的觀念應該都要放進去好比氣候變遷影響下我們對糧食的看法"},{"start":38.143,"end":51.695,"text":"那這種低碳啊 抗旱啊 在地產銷 循環經濟保種的觀念 民族的味覺 解殖民的概念等等我想如果都能夠含瓜進去 這是非常前進的一步法那為什麼我這樣談 我舉我的版本來講我的版本的名稱叫做學校共餐及飲食教育法那我看到很多的版本都會提到"},{"start":63.925,"end":75.137,"text":"就是採用當地食材然後發展地方飲食特色但是談何容易我舉個例子我的部落旁邊種滿了山蘇誰來買從產地到餐桌我們講探足機"},{"start":81.204,"end":104.469,"text":"有那麼容易嗎這二三十年來我們做營養午餐很不容易達到但是我更希望談的就是說民族味覺的記憶跟文化附贈的途徑其實如果能夠從這一步伐來做其實可以成為一個很好的途徑我舉一個例子來講齁在花東地區有一個基金會叫慈欣基金會次長您聽過嗎"},{"start":106.65,"end":120.299,"text":"這個慈欣經濟會他是用募款的方式他目前有幫助12間的小學他做什麼呢每週幫助他們提供一次的小米加布農豆就是畫面圖片上看到的"},{"start":121.399,"end":125.723,"text":"那這個部分小米很營養為什麼因為農糧屬農業不說的啊小米是鹼性的它是所有穀類當中唯一就是不含麩質的那些胃腸過敏的小朋友呢其實很適合吃這個"},{"start":137.913,"end":161.765,"text":"容易吸收而且它可以做酸鹼中和對現在的孩子很愛吃肉來講是一個很好的一個食物那另外呢也提到說如果做成小米粥它的營養成分就好比人生湯哇 這麼好我們國家未來的主人翁如果能夠吃小米飯小米粥該有多好但是 次長你看一下"},{"start":162.725,"end":176.218,"text":"我們小米種植的面積日本人來的時候我不計算就已經開始輔導原住民轉作但是國民政府當時轉作稻米那個時候我們看到數據是在6736公頃"},{"start":180.222,"end":195.579,"text":"時至今日小米的面積只剩下91公頃1%不到真的很令人難過那我們其實原住民也經歷山地平地化的一個過程像我們的高山上以前哪有高麗菜"},{"start":196.78,"end":214.967,"text":"種滿了高麗菜以前哪有茶葉以前哪有水梨以前哪有蘋果所以呢山上種的植物已經不再是我們過去的作物或植物所以小米它面臨的問題很多像是種植的人口少而且那些人都高齡化"},{"start":216.067,"end":234.894,"text":"更可怕的是我們的小米品系在台灣原本是全世界最多的可是時至今日因為沒有人吃 沒有人種所以保種困難 快速流失甚至現在中國已經把小米變作是第二公糧因為它為了要抗旱當作是一個未來的植物"},{"start":240.916,"end":269.169,"text":"所以在這個地方生產端他說他不容易賣所以不種那市場端他說因為買不到所以不方便好 那我現在說小米他不是只有想要保種我們更希望的是把它昇華成飲食的行動保存我們民族的味覺記憶我們的孩子很需要小米但是我想說以慈欣為例她輔導那12間學校第一個每週給他們吃一次小米飯"},{"start":270.37,"end":282.67,"text":"然後呢 給他們種小米跟部落的農友合作做一些小米的變化料理做小米的宣講然後呢 進入到部落的文件站好 我想先問一下農糧署"},{"start":290.182,"end":316.392,"text":"委員好好 請教一下我們農糧署是副署長副署長我剛剛講了這麼多你支不支持我們的部落在地食材像小米啊 樹豆等等進入校園做營養午餐農糧署的部分原則上應該會支持啦那這一部分目前農糧署對於原鄉的這個作物我們也有在支持輔導好"},{"start":317.412,"end":333.322,"text":"那其實我在農糧署碰到一個障礙齁我過去也開過中庭會你們有一個非傳統性食品原料申請是很麻煩耶我們好多的月桃入菜老葉入菜很多都要被罰耶"},{"start":334.503,"end":351.31,"text":"那個動作加速了沒有這個還要跟衛福部這邊因為那個可不可以當作食材這個部分要對我的意思說要加速要加速我們很需要農糧署的幫忙好不好好謝謝副署長那再請教一下我們的署長國教署署長"},{"start":353.564,"end":368.758,"text":"那個署長因為這個專法是在我們國教署請教依您的經驗這些部落在地的食材要進入到我們學校的營養午餐廚房會面臨哪些困難跟限制"},{"start":370.479,"end":389.17,"text":"第一個他可能如果在張Q的認定上這可能要鏈接起來這個我們會跟農糧署做了解農糧署據我了解最近在這個整體的認定上為什麼我們現在會98.41這麼高的比率也是農糧署做了很多的跟地方的合作第二點"},{"start":389.67,"end":416.783,"text":"可能在經費上經費上這一點剛好在前面109到111年我們給餐費我們直接給餐費到62元這樣的一個情況下對於量少它的經費可能要多一點的這樣也可以做一點支持那署長我的意思是說既然我們現在要立這部專訪那您也很知道過去推動在地食材的一個困難那我很希望說這個部分我們要盡量的去協助輔導好 謝謝署長"},{"start":419.904,"end":442.815,"text":"對 剛才講的就是說門檻太高那部落的食材進不去學校的高牆那我們講的什麼碳足跡部落經濟部落足體農業在地產銷其實在這個地方都遇到了障礙所以我也請次長你能夠去關心這個問題那我關心的是說你的公糧不是我的公糧你的營養午餐不見得是我想要的營養午餐所以"},{"start":444.376,"end":469.026,"text":"這個部分其實我們有很多的在地食材我們都很希望能夠輕鬆的進入政府所講的這件事情怎麼樣從產地到餐桌讓它更順暢那我更希望的是說要有人吃啊 有人利用啊才會有人種啊那這樣子才是保種的真思維因為沒有人吃 沒有人利用 沒有人補助"},{"start":470.066,"end":486.134,"text":"我們要談保種何其困難都要送到北極的總園庫這是很悲哀的一件事情所以我是希望說這件事情我們的政府能夠去介入能夠關心連民間的慈欣基金會這樣的團體它都基於它對土地的使命感"},{"start":490.676,"end":511.516,"text":"對地球的愛護他都願意去募款但是他能力有限但是我是希望說我們的農業部我們的教育部 國教署大家一起共同的來推動協助我們這些的在地食材可以進入到我們學校的營養午餐那也希望呢 至少有沒有可能從原住民重點學校來示範 次長"},{"start":512.814,"end":539.983,"text":"我想委員的建議非常好,很前進這部分我們一定是願意來做相關的計畫因為涉及到地方的部分我們會跟他寫請他們來提計畫那我們如果可以的話我們當然會來讓部落的學校優先來示範這個如果能夠用這樣的方式來做飲食我想是部落孩童的福氣而且可以發展在地的食材在觀光、文化、旅遊上面都會有幫忙"},{"start":541.023,"end":563.856,"text":"對 它就是一個良性循環其實我們談到的很多東西它都可以在這件事情裡面能夠完全所以為什麼說專法有時候就是一個宣示性規範性很多特色包括食農教育在講很多特色在地食材是有地方的特色其實我們都很希望地方能夠發展出特色那如果在法規層面上譬如三張EQ的認證困難上面我們會跟衛福部還有農業部來協調"},{"start":568.999,"end":594.004,"text":"其實我要談的就是幾乎大家的版本都提到這幾個字鼓勵學校採用在地食材發展地方飲食特色但是要落實很難所以我希望說這個部分就是提醒我們教育部還有農業部能夠好好的去思考教育部的母法就是做一個規範那真的要做到有特色一定是地方的規劃計畫提出來我們一定會全力支持"},{"start":594.624,"end":614.881,"text":"那我們很難去為每一個縣市每一個學校由中央直接來規劃這不太可能的 也是不切實際但是我還是要講但是在規範上是有的我們在布的這個布板的條例裡面像第四條第十五條的樣子十三條都有提到就是說尊重在地文化在地食材"},{"start":615.501,"end":633.928,"text":"然後尊重這個認識跟尊重傳統及多元飲食文化尊重生命及自然環境我希望那個強度我們法的強度還是指導性再多一點因為到地方政府說一句實在話我們很辛苦就是說有政策然後再用政策工具在編預算來推動那這一部分"},{"start":634.761,"end":647.939,"text":"在經費的准許下我們會努力來做 好不好如果將來想辦法 大家一起努力地方政委也一起來分擔這個責任好 謝謝教育部 謝謝農業部好 謝謝主席謝謝武林法委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":897,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時24分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：請次長備詢。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長好。次長，今天如果要為我們的營養午餐來立一部法，我想很多與時俱進的觀念、很未來性的觀念，應該都要放進去，好比在氣候變遷影響下我們對糧食的看法，這種低碳、抗旱、在地產銷、循環經濟、保種的觀念、民族的味覺、解殖民的概念等等，我想如果都能夠含括進去……"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個非常前進。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，這是非常前進的一部法。為什麼我這樣談？舉我的版本來講，我的版本名稱叫做學校供餐及飲食教育法，我看到很多的版本都會提到採用當地食材、發展地方飲食特色，但是談何容易！我舉個例子，我的部落旁邊種滿了山蘇，誰來買？從產地到餐桌，我們講碳足跡，有那麼容易嗎？這二、三十年來，我們做營養午餐很不容易達到，但是我更希望談的就是民族味覺的記憶跟文化復振的途徑，如果能夠從這一步法來做，其實可以成為一個很好的途徑。","我舉一個例子來講，在花東地區有一個基金會叫慈心基金會，次長，您聽過嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個慈心基金會是用募款的方式，它目前有幫助12間小學，它做什麼呢？每週幫助他們提供一次的小米加布農豆，就是畫面圖片上看到的，這個部分小米很營養，為什麼？因為農糧署、農業部說小米是鹼性的，它是所有穀類當中唯一不含麩質的，那些胃腸過敏的小朋友其實很適合吃這個，容易吸收而且它可以做酸鹼中和，對現在的孩子很愛吃肉來講是一個很好的食物；另外也提到，如果做成小米粥，它的營養成分就好比人參湯。哇，這麼好，我們國家未來的主人翁如果能夠吃小米飯、小米粥該有多好！","但是次長你看一下，關於小米種植的面積，日本人來的時候我不計算，那時就已經開始輔導原住民轉作；但是國民政府當時轉作稻米，那個時候我們看到數據是6,736公頃；時至今日，小米的面積只剩下91公頃，1%不到，真的很令人難過！我們原住民也經歷山地平地化的過程，像我們高山上以前哪有高麗菜、種滿了高麗菜，以前哪有茶葉、以前哪有水梨、以前哪有蘋果！所以山上種的植物已經不再是我們過去的作物或植物，因此小米面臨的問題很多，像是種植的人口少，而且那些人都高齡化，更可怕的是，我們的小米品系在臺灣原本是全世界最多的，可是時至今日，因為沒有人吃、沒有人種，所以保種困難、快速流失，甚至現在中國已經把小米變做是第二公糧，因為他為了要抗旱，當作是一個未來的植物。所以在這方面，生產端因為不容易賣，所以不種；市場端因為買不到，所以不方便。","現在小米不是只有想要保種，我們更希望把它昇華成飲食的行動，保存我們民族的味覺記憶，我們的孩子很需要小米。我以慈心為例，它輔導那12間學校，第一個，每週給他們吃一次小米飯，然後給他們種小米，跟部落的農友合作，做一些小米的變化料理、做小米的宣講，然後進入到部落的文健站。","我想先問一下農糧署。"],["黃副署長昭興：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，請教一下農糧署副署長，副署長，我剛剛講了這麼多，你支不支持我們的部落在地食材，像小米、樹豆等等進入校園做營養午餐？"],["黃副署長昭興：農糧署原則上應該會支持，這一部分目前農糧署對於原鄉作物也有在支持、輔導。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。我在農糧署碰到一個障礙，我過去也開過公聽會，你們有一個非傳統性食品原料申請，很麻煩耶！例如我們好多的月桃入菜、荖葉入菜，很多都要被罰，那個動作加速了沒有？"],["黃副署長昭興：這個還要跟衛福部這邊……因為那個可不可以當作食材的部分要跟衛福部……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，我的意思說要加速、要加速！我們很需要農糧署的幫忙，好不好？"],["黃副署長昭興：是！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝副署長。","再請教一下國教署署長。"],["彭署長富源：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：署長，因為這個專法是在國教署，請教依您的經驗，這些部落在地的食材要進入到學校的營養午餐廚房會面臨哪些困難跟限制？"],["彭署長富源：第一個，在章Q的認定上可能要鏈結起來，這個我們會跟農糧署進行了解，據我了解，農糧署最近在整體的認定上，為什麼我們現在會是98.41%這麼高的比率？也是農糧署做了很多跟地方的合作；第二點，可能在經費上，這一點剛好在前面109到111年我們給餐費，我們直接給餐費到62元，在這樣的一個情況下，對於量少而經費可能要多一點的，這樣也可以做一點支持。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：署長，我的意思是，既然我們現在要立這部專法，您也很知道過去推動在地食材的困難，我很希望這個部分你們要儘量去協助輔導，謝謝署長。","對，剛才講的就是門檻太高，部落的食材進不去學校的高牆，我們講的什麼碳足跡、部落經濟、部落主體農業、在地產銷，其實在這個地方都遇到了障礙，所以我也請次長能夠關心這個問題。而我關心的部分是，你的公糧不是我的公糧，你的營養午餐不見得是我想要的營養午餐，所以這個部分其實我們有很多的在地食材，我們都很希望能夠輕鬆地進入政府所講的這件事情，怎麼讓產地到餐桌更順暢。","而我更希望的是，要有人吃、有人利用才會有人種，這樣子才是保種的真思維，因為沒有人吃、沒有人利用、沒有人補助，我們要談保種何其困難，都要送到北極的種原庫，這是很悲哀的一件事情，所以我希望這件事情政府能夠介入、能夠關心，連民間慈心基金會這樣的團體都基於它對土地的使命感、對地球的愛護而願意去募款，但是它能力有限，所以我希望農業部、教育部國教署大家一起共同來推動，協助我們這些在地食材可以進入到學校的營養午餐，有沒有可能至少從原住民重點學校來試辦，次長？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想委員的建議非常好、很前進，這部分我們一定願意來做相關的計畫，涉及到地方的部分我們會請他們來提計畫，如果可以的話我們當然會讓部落的學校優先來試辦，如果能夠用這樣的方式來做飲食，我想是部落孩童的福氣，也非常幸運，而且可以發展在地的食材，在觀光、文化、旅遊上面都會有幫忙。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，這就是一個良性循環，其實我們談到的很多東西都可以在這件事情裡面能夠完全。"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以為什麼叫專法，有時候是一個宣示性、規範性，包括食農教育在講的，在地食材具有地方的特色，其實我們都很希望地方能夠發展出特色，如果在法規層面上，譬如三章一Q的認證困難，我們會跟衛福部還有農業部來協調。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實我要談的就是，幾乎大家的版本都提到這幾個字，鼓勵學校採用在地食材、發展地方飲食特色，但是要落實很難，所以這個部分就是提醒教育部還有農業部能夠好好的去思考。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員也知道教育部的母法就是做一個規範，真的要做到有特色一定是地方的規劃、計畫提出來，我們一定會全力支持，很難每一個縣市、每一個學校由中央直接來規劃，這是不太可能的、也是不切實際。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但我還是要講……"],["張廖次長萬堅：但在規範上是有的，我們在部版的條例裡面，像第四條、第十三條都有提到尊重在地文化、在地食材、認識跟尊重傳統及多元飲食文化、尊重生命及自然環境，都有這些。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望我們法的強度還是指導性再多一點，因為到地方政府，說一句實在話，我們很辛苦。"],["張廖次長萬堅：過去我們有政策，然後再用政策工具、編預算來推動，這一部分在經費的准許下我們會努力來做，好不好？將來想辦法、大家一起努力，地方政府也一起來分擔這個責任。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝教育部、謝謝農業部，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員質詢，官員請回座。剛剛聽到伍麗華委員講小米、樹豆，我肚子都餓了，我想在地的多元食材真的是可以來考慮一下。","我們待會在吳沛憶委員質詢之後會處理臨時提案。","我們接著繼續進行質詢，請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159475","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159475","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0f38f7d19da05f4fbb06f2ced2e0bc0906c2779210393a151539f966d37fd65f05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"12:16:56 - 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我請莊部長莊部長其實"},{"start":15.879,"end":36.495,"text":"唱歌會局到現在你這個半年來啊你的一些表現作為我知道你很努力很認真是重規重矩啦但是我如果形容比較實際一點我認為你是守成有餘開創不足啦簡單講四個字暴殘守缺所以我今天的質詢我要送你"},{"start":45.523,"end":72.336,"text":"另外四個字就是與時俱進與時俱進我上次諮詢我就講如果財政部你身為部長的職責你是要看好我們的國產看好我們的稅收那我說那其實"},{"start":74.042,"end":93.637,"text":"每天在場的國產署長、負稅署長都可以來接替啊甚至連我還提到連101董事長也可以來接替不是嗎所以我要告訴你的就是說你既然身為部長你帶頭"},{"start":95.885,"end":109.63,"text":"你的引領的方向跟你帶動的那個精神很重要我簡單講我們現在很多財稅制度應該與時俱進比方說娛樂稅 印花稅汽車關稅 機車貨物稅保健食品關稅這些"},{"start":121.434,"end":143.616,"text":"我們兩三個會期都在跟你討論那並不是說那你就一定當下你就必須怎麼定出怎麼樣的改進方式可是談了三個會期欸 天啊你至少定個time table嘛說那我們現在研究的進展的怎麼樣"},{"start":144.841,"end":164.102,"text":"沒有所以這一個部分我希望你能夠聽進去我一項一項會來跟你討論這個事情我先從這個才化法才化法我們卓院長事實上在3月12號復印沒通過以後"},{"start":165.123,"end":183.242,"text":"左院長就說他會來提新的版本前幾天啦 左院長在總質詢的時候接受總質詢的時候他也答覆說才化法會有新版本所以這個部分莊部長我要請問你什麼時候提出來這個新的版本"},{"start":184.209,"end":205.409,"text":"好跟委員報告我想委員剛剛的一些免利跟指教我都會接受如果有更適合的人來接我都樂意交棒我想跟委員報告第二個就是您剛剛提到幾個法第一個娛樂稅法我們已經送到立法院來了對於印花稅這個部分我們也在徵詢地方政府他們都認為基於財政自主"},{"start":205.869,"end":217.679,"text":"他們不贊成廢除這個部分涉及到地方稅我們都要很重要那另外對於關稅食品的關稅食品的保健食品的關稅的部分我們也跟經濟部積極的溝通那經濟部的產發署也有很具體的一個回應第一個就他認為說部分的產品可以分年的降關稅部分產品可以直接降那對於哪一些產品的範圍以及降稅的一個怎麼樣分年跟期程"},{"start":235.053,"end":255.029,"text":"這個部分關務署也跟懲罰室在進一步的溝通你這一個部分對於我們詢問的委員完全沒有答覆我跟你講保健食品關稅看起來貌似很簡單的事情這是保健食品這關稅什麼了不起保健食品在我們台灣的市場1700億關"},{"start":259.272,"end":277.141,"text":"自己國內生產的就1100多億你用高關稅保護了我們的表面上叫做保護國的水準結果在剝削了我們全民的健康保健不是嗎是他會分項目來做該有哪些項目討論出來你要給我們我們保健食品的關稅我跟你講啦"},{"start":282.203,"end":284.285,"text":"日本4%韓國6%對岸中國才8.5%我們台灣30%你認為對嗎台灣30%欸我們現在這個菸酒"},{"start":297.707,"end":322.062,"text":"菸酒的稅金才27%要維護我們健康的保健食品竟然高過可能危害我們健康的菸酒27%天啊那我們政府的態度是什麼是那所以剛剛跟委員報告經濟部產發署已經有非常具體的一個回應然後他們也會做後面的項目會你把這個回應給我們好不好你一告知"},{"start":324.744,"end":349.025,"text":"你幫我告知經濟部跟他們的產發署告訴他們他們所謂的要保護我們國內生技業者、製藥業者、保健食品業者保護產業但是我們國民的健康更要緊國民的健康保健高過產業保護不是嗎"},{"start":350.673,"end":365.78,"text":"現在保護的結果你看我們這些生技廠製藥的他不再製藥了不再研發新藥了所以你看我們健保已經這麼艱困之下很多藥原廠藥我們買不到好歹至少這些大廠"},{"start":367.06,"end":383.089,"text":"他們趕快來做做學名藥來幫我們解除我們健保的負擔啊顧到我們國人的健康才對啊結果不是有一千多億在高關稅保護之下他們大賺大吃這一塊所以我認為會導致他們不長進而且這也嚴重影響到我們國內需要保健食品"},{"start":395.646,"end":417.715,"text":"的同胞們他們的權益嘛好不好對我知道這個部分我們也會轉達產發署然後我們關務署也會跟產發署去聯繫那他已經答應你的他已經有具體的回應那我想這個部分的項目如果能夠更確認的話那就後續可以進行我們後面的作業所以我認為說所以這樣子你在這個我是肯定的有一項"},{"start":419.059,"end":431.323,"text":"你在三月六你們內部有主持一個會議你提到這個財化法劃分那麼你是說這個市權就是說財權應該跟市權要有一定的"},{"start":436.68,"end":460.998,"text":"調整這個要一致這是對的所以我才說你趕快提出財化法的版本到底我們地方分走多少那就把該分走的這些財權我們也把事務歸給他們讓他們去做你像現在調列出來我希望你們調列多一點像勞動部有好幾項農民保險 農業基礎建設這個"},{"start":464.98,"end":490.333,"text":"應該就是你跟農業部趕快商量是不是這部分財權、事權統一錢歸到地方那地方要幫忙做啊內政部的城鎮創生營造勞動部啊依地方人口提供的這些津貼都是啊環境部的這個垃圾調度啊淨零減碳計畫很多他們都可以參與嘛所以財權"},{"start":492.055,"end":498.615,"text":"市權要一次等比例這個部分是不是快點落實可不可以"},{"start":500.26,"end":527.157,"text":"這個部分會是由行政院跟各部會邀請各部會去做相關的盤點就是各部會有些哪些市權要做什麼調整或者是說經費上或計劃型的補助款如何的一個做一個調整可是財政說實話主導是你們啦所以應該由你主導啦好不好這一點我希望你注意台南市因為台南也是一個很好的一個指標台南提到說因為市權的轉播"},{"start":529.478,"end":556.737,"text":"撥到他們手上他們需要他們要增加支出273億但是如果照現在能夠分配給他的才163億我想地方政府包括台南高雄甚至其他台中台北大家提出的那財分部趕快收集收集大家對這件事情這調整的怎麼看法好不好我最後問你一個問題就是關於汽車關稅啦"},{"start":558.178,"end":575.026,"text":"那汽車關稅現在這個我們這麼高關稅我們是降過了以後我們17.5%但是你看喔這幾年來這五年來我們台灣我們不但是全亞洲最高的汽車關稅那我們從美國進口的車輛"},{"start":576.167,"end":593.612,"text":"我就以去年來講大概9.4億美金 308億台幣那我們課了他們17.5% 53.9億那我們台灣出口過去那邊的汽車我們大概平均我們抓1億美金好了"},{"start":595.751,"end":613.578,"text":"他們收我們2.5關稅才收7750萬所以這一件事情我認為美國一定會來argue川普這種一定會來討的啦所以這件事情我認為剛好我們適度現在趕快去研究調降汽車關稅"},{"start":614.838,"end":631.102,"text":"我們對他們釋出善意一方面加惠到我們國內這個汽車的使用者二方面也讓我們好不容易茁壯起來的國產車它也能夠平行輸入到美國去你的看法呢"},{"start":632.657,"end":636.42,"text":"跟委員報告您關心這個有關汽車關稅已經有蠻長的時間了那這個部分涉及到我們國內國產汽車的一個產業的發展以及面臨現在燃油車要轉型到電動車等等因素那經濟部的產發署也都已經做過評估了然後也跟車輛工會裡面也就做過討論"},{"start":652.675,"end":658.001,"text":"建議是維持那至於我們銷到美國的車子其實我們銷到它美國如同剛才委員所說的大概是31億的美金而且都是1000cc以下的沙灘車但是美國進口到我國的"},{"start":669.855,"end":695.621,"text":"到我國的車輛的總值大到300多億所以是10倍我想這個部分我們其實在關稅如果他提出相關的對等關稅的時候我們會去多方面的考量第一個對國內產業的一個衝擊以及國內有什麼樣的因應的措施都在目前都在模擬因應模擬方案當中現在不調整反而是衝擊而且部長我最後提醒你"},{"start":696.241,"end":708.765,"text":"我們主動調價也可以幫助我們台灣加入CPTPP好不好這是很重要的一個關鍵項目好不好委員謝謝謝謝與時俱進啦謝謝王委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1156,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（12時17分）謝謝主席。我請莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：莊部長，其實上個會期到現在，你這半年來的一些表現作為，我知道你很努力、很認真，是中規中矩啦，但是我如果形容比較實際一點，我認為你是守成有餘，開創不足啦！簡單講4個字「抱殘守缺」，所以我今天的質詢要送你另外4個字，就是「與時俱進」。上次質詢我就講，你身為財政部部長的職責是不是要看好我們的國產、要看好我們的稅收？其實那天在場的國產署長、賦稅署長都可以來接替啊！甚至我還提到連101董事長也可以來接替不是嗎？所以我要告訴你的就是你既然身為部長，你帶頭引領的方向跟你帶動的精神很重要，簡單講，我們現在很多財稅制度應該與時俱進，比如娛樂稅、印花稅、汽車關稅、機車貨物稅、保健食品關稅，這些我們兩、三個會期都在跟你討論，並不是說當下你就必須訂出怎麼樣的改進方式，可是談了三個會期，你至少訂個timetable，說我們現在的研究進展得怎麼樣，結果並沒有！這部分我希望你能夠聽進去，我會一項一項來跟你討論這個事情，我先從財劃法說起，針對財劃法，事實上在3月12號覆議沒通過以後，卓院長就說他會提新的版本，前幾天卓院長在接受總質詢的時候，他也答復說財劃法會有新版本。針對這部分，莊部長我要請問你，什麼時候提出來這個新的版本？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，委員剛剛的一些勉勵跟指教我都會接受，如果有更適合的人來接，我都樂意交棒。第二個，您剛剛提到幾個法，娛樂稅法我們已經送到立法院來了；對於印花稅我們也在徵詢地方政府，他們都認為基於財政自主，他們不贊成廢除，這個部分涉及到地方稅，我們都要很重視；另外，對於保健食品關稅的部分，我們也跟經濟部積極的溝通，經濟部產發署也有很具體的回應，第一個是它認為部分產品可以分年降關稅，部分產品可以直接降，對於哪一些產品的範圍以及降稅怎麼樣分年跟期程，針對這部分關務署也跟產發署在進一步溝通，我想這個部分已經有很具體的……"],["王委員世堅：針對這個部分，對於詢問的委員你完全沒有答復。我跟你講，保健食品的關稅看起來貌似很簡單的事情，你們會以為保健食品的關稅有什麼了不起？其實保健食品在臺灣的市場有1,700億，光國內自己生產的就一千一百多億，你用高關稅表面上叫做保護國內業者，結果這剝削了全民的健康保健不是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：它會分項目來做，所以委員您……"],["王委員世堅：對，該有哪一些項目討論出來，你要給我們答復。"],["莊部長翠雲：會的。"],["王委員世堅：針對保健食品的關稅，日本是4%，韓國是6%，對岸中國才8.5%，而臺灣是30%，你認為對嗎？臺灣是30%耶！現在我們菸酒的稅率才27%，要維護我們健康的保健食品關稅竟然高過可能危害我們健康的菸酒的27%，天啊！我們政府的態度是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：所以剛剛跟委員報告，經濟部產發署已經有非常具體的回應，他們也會針對後面的項目……"],["王委員世堅：那你把這個回應給我們，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：可以。"],["王委員世堅：你幫我告知經濟部跟產發署，告訴他們雖然他們要保護國內生技業者、製藥業者，保健食品業者、保護產業，但是國民的健康更要緊，國民的健康保健高過產業保護不是嗎？現在保護的結果，你看這些生技廠、製藥廠不再製藥了、不再研發新藥了，所以你看我們健保已經這麼艱困的情況之下，很多原廠藥我們買不到，至少這些大廠他們趕快來做做學名藥，來幫我們解除健保的負擔，要顧到我們國人的健康才對啊！結果不是，有一千多億在高關稅保護之下，他們大賺這一塊，所以我認為會導致他們不長進，而且這也嚴重影響到國內需要保健食品同胞們的權益，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我知道，這個部分我們也會轉達產發署，然後我們關務署也會跟產發署密切聯繫。"],["王委員世堅：它已經答應你的……"],["莊部長翠雲：它已經有具體的回應，我想這個部分的項目如果能夠更確認的話，後續就可以進行我們後面的作業。"],["王委員世堅：我所肯定的有一項，3月6號你在你們內部有主持一個會議，你提到財劃法劃分，你說財權和事權應該要有一定的調整，這個要一致。這是對的，所以我才說你趕快提出財劃法的版本，到底地方分走多少，就把該分走的財權給他們，同時也把事務歸給他們，讓他們去做。現在條列出來，我希望你們條列多一點，像勞動部有好幾項，另外像是農民保險、農業基礎建設，你跟農業部應該趕快商量是不是這一部分的財權、事權要統一？錢歸到地方，那地方要幫忙做啊！包括內政部的城鎮創生營造、勞動部依地方人口提供的津貼都是啊！環境部的垃圾調度、淨零減碳計畫，很多他們都可以參與嘛！所以財權、事權要一致等比例，這個部分是不是快點落實？可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分會是由行政院邀集各部會去做相關的盤點，就是各部會有哪些事權要做什麼調整，或者是經費上或計畫型的補助款如何調整，都會在……"],["王委員世堅：可是財政收支劃分法的主導是你們，所以應該由你主導好不好？這一點我希望你注意，其實臺南也是一個很好的指標，臺南提到因為事權轉撥到他們手上，他們要增加支出273億，但是如果照現在的狀況，能夠分配給它的才163億。我想地方政府包括臺南、高雄甚至臺中、臺北所提出的意見，財政部趕快蒐集大家對這件事情的調整是什麼看法好不好？","我最後問你一個問題就是關於汽車關稅，現在這麼高關稅，我們是降過了以後才變成17.5%，但是你看這五年來，臺灣不但是全亞洲最高的汽車關稅，我們從美國進口的車輛，就以去年來講，大概達到9.4億美金，折合308億臺幣，我們課了他們17.5%，相當於53.9億。而臺灣出口過去邊的汽車，平均我們抓1億美金好了，他們收我們2.5%的關稅，等於才收7,750萬，所以這件事情我認為美國一定會來argue，川普總統一定會來討的啦！針對這件事情，我認為剛好現在我們趕快去研究適度調降汽車關稅，我們對他們釋出善意，一方面嘉惠國內汽車使用者，二方面也讓我們好不容易茁壯起來的國產車能夠平行輸入到美國去。你的看法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，您關心汽車關稅已經有滿長的時間了，這個部分涉及到國內國產汽車的產業發展，以及面臨現在燃油車要轉型到電動車等等因素，經濟部產發署都已經做過評估了，然後也跟車輛工會做過討論，建議是維持。至於我們銷到美國的車子，其實我們銷到美國如同剛才委員所說的，大概是31億美金，而且都是1,000CC以下的沙灘車，但是美國進口到我國的車輛總值達到三百多億，所以是十倍。"],["王委員世堅：對啊！我剛剛就是跟你說這個數字啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：所以是十倍，這個部分其實在關稅如果他提出相關的對等關稅的時候，我們會去多方面的考量，第一個，對國內產業的衝擊，以及國內有什麼樣的因應措施……"],["王委員世堅：你現在……"],["莊部長翠雲：目前都在模擬方案當中。"],["王委員世堅：現在不調整反而是衝擊，而且部長我最後提醒你，我們主動調降也可以幫助臺灣加入CPTPP，好不好？這是很重要的關鍵項目，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：與時俱進。"],["主席：謝謝王委員，謝謝莊部長。","接下來有請陳委員玉珍質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159474","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159474","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb069ce839935a7c36e56c3f89dc79e7a256c2779210393a151f21262aa761bdb5a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"12:12:33 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要不要加一個時間點要評估那麼久嗎"},{"start":164.527,"end":187.312,"text":"台研現在正在進行這個最後的評論台研啊基本上是屬於一種國有的一個企業卻沒有受到立法院的監督什麼事情我們找他的時候擺出一副老大不管的樣子在我的選區當中七座當中有三座而且連台研博物館找他來討論一下愛理不理"},{"start":191.853,"end":214.94,"text":"這個就是你們自己的行政監督的結果啊搞出這麼多弊案啊是 報告委員我想台研就像您剛剛所指正的我們只持股38.8我們是最大的股東對但是它是已經一個上市的公司是所以我想也算是一個公股公司啦很多的單位在監管它主要的大股東是你們啦你們占50%啦是你們直接可以擁有決定權的啦"},{"start":216.38,"end":241.276,"text":"我們當然會監督他的這個監督不力啊要好好檢討啦好 我再跟你討論另一個問題你看森巴第二期到現在為止喔二期的森巴電業執照還遲遲未發我就問你嘛整個森巴從去年六月以來配合台電調度南科工電1.1GW試運轉已經到這種狀態已經快一年了"},{"start":245.683,"end":272.297,"text":"為什麼徵招還沒有發下來為什麼這個委員我可以請這個署長跟你報告嗎可以來能源署長是報告委員因為那個立法院這邊在1月有一個主決議裡面有一些要求申報要履行的事項他還沒有完成哪一個事項沒有完成目前比較重要的就是希望他跟這個民眾辦理公開的說明會公開的說明會辦過幾場你知道了嗎"},{"start":273.898,"end":297.339,"text":"目前立法院要求他能夠辦四場那麼之前我們已經他辦了一場但是另外三場還沒有辦所以我們希望他盡快能夠依照立法院的決議把這三場辦好那個說明的部分老早就已經辦過好幾次一直強調所謂的安全檢測的部分安全檢測的部分就找了瑞士羅生公司來進行安全檢測"},{"start":298.36,"end":317.379,"text":"瑞士羅生公司也是中油管線的一個公司也沒有問題的情況底下為什麼安全沒問題什麼都沒有問題結果你們執照遲遲不發送我手頭上是好幾區的十幾個里長簽署了聲明書他們希望"},{"start":318.16,"end":343.655,"text":"你們趕快合法所以我們希望申辦能夠依立法院的決議趕快辦說明會那辦完之後他辦了好幾場了啦因為後來他是有這個經濟委員會已經快一年了啦按照這種程序裡頭你們如果不給這一個執照的話基本上是違法的我們不會不給他執照你們就拖了快一年啊你一年沒有給的話那電學金的回饋金就沒有辦法運作啊"},{"start":344.903,"end":351.947,"text":"我算一下這個電學金的部分以發電量來說每一度要0.018來做回饋的話48億度的話總共每年回饋金額8640萬以現在地方已經實質在承擔這個發電的這種負擔的情況底下你回饋不給你是什麼意思"},{"start":365.373,"end":382.92,"text":"是 所以我們希望申辦能夠盡快依立法院的組決議來完成這個組決議基本上就已經辦過啦 之前就辦過好幾次你要到底辦幾場啊因為那是組決議以後希望他能夠再辦四場那目前辦一場我們希望把他他趕快把這另外三場 到底要辦幾場要求是 要求再辦一場就好要求辦四場 那我們可以請他再辦因為他有辦一場了"},{"start":390.799,"end":413.98,"text":"那但是還不符合主決議的要求所以我們希望他能夠盡快完成這個要求我跟你講署長你要有尬子一點是這明明是兩回事他那個說明會是為了一期一期跟二期是兩回事要脫鍋處理啊你聽到沒有了解你剛代理署長而已啊是你要表現得跟上面那個署長不一樣一點啊是不要被拖得團團轉啊好我們會參考我跟你講"},{"start":417.645,"end":435.006,"text":"如果說你這樣弄不好 我就找你算帳會的 我們只要就是說我們再跟申辦來溝通搞什麼 這違法的事情你們可以公開違法堵職沒有違法 我們一定是照程序來算程序都已經給你們了 已經運轉快一年了還沒有證照"},{"start":436.952,"end":461.757,"text":"這沒有違法因為他目前的已經經過國際公司的檢定了已經安全無虞了你還不給他細節我們跟委員報告第一個他之前有送資料他的資料是要件不齊全所以我們有把它做一句已經即時補件了啦目前他還沒有送到我們這邊之前已經即時補件了如果沒有即時補件就罰他嘛好部長來我再問你一下部長部長是之前啊"},{"start":467.136,"end":486.236,"text":"整個能源署出的問題就是在KPI的問題啦橫衝直轉了嘛呼嘎瞎搞包括太陽能是這樣子包括天然氣也是這樣子天然氣的話用KPI思考的話硬要把9A通過結果現在9A弄到後來9A也是受害者啊之前我就跟你們講啊"},{"start":490.817,"end":500.186,"text":"這個簽這個電力採購協定之前一定要有這個這個環評好現在又知錯能改 改過來要環評了好現在九威有沒有辦法運轉"},{"start":503.271,"end":525.769,"text":"沒有辦法嘛我們都是依照這個法令的規定在進行我跟你講啦 好 法令啦要取得施工息可必要條件要經過還品他現在沒有拿到還品 合約已經到二月底已經到期了那現在已經到期的情況底下你有沒有確定了解台電有沒有依法處罰款這個我請台電董事長跟你們報告好不好"},{"start":526.496,"end":553.259,"text":"有沒有我要請台電董事長跟你報告總經理跟你報告報告委員九位公司已經來函要求說要終止契約只是說這個終止契約的條件譬如剛剛您提到的整個的罰款金額怎麼計算雙方還有一些爭執爭議這個爭議我們正在處理當中大概是目前的進度到這裡目前在確認罰款的金額那罰是什麼時候開始罰"},{"start":555.281,"end":574.843,"text":"依照合約啦齁那因為當時的這個合約在執行的過程當中有一些不可抗力的條件我們有給他一些這方面的一些展言那要罰幾個月才能終止契約所以目前就是針對這個部分我們認為要多罰一點他認為要少罰一點可是就時間上沒有argument空間吧"},{"start":575.504,"end":594.181,"text":"你金額你多少你們兩部分可以談可是就實質金額你罰款六個月之後你今年應該8月25號就要終止契約條件了不是嗎是就是我們預計罰他六個月的那個所以最慢8月25號就依法終止契約是最慢到8月25最慢8月25 9月就結束了"},{"start":596.747,"end":611.116,"text":"因為他已經提前要求說要提前終止契約好 真正退場就8月25對 如果最晚的話大概就是這個時候但是就是合約會到那個時候結束啦但是中間的法律上的一些談判我知道 我期待8月25有結果 謝謝是謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":973,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（12時12分）主席，有請郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長好。總質詢的時候，我跟你討教過有關地面型跟屋頂型的問題，之所以需要導向屋頂型，是因為地面型其實非常困難，到目前政策缺口還缺五、六個GW。地面型之所以會出了這麼多爭議性的問題，在於臺鹽本身底下的臺鹽綠能爭議案件就受人詬病。問題是經濟部每年投資臺鹽6.9億，持股占38.8%，董事席次9席當中，占5席、過半。結果臺鹽綠能的董事長、總經理分別被起訴12年跟10年，經濟部有沒有責任？有沒有主管受到嚴懲？部長，請回答。"],["郭部長智輝：目前為止，這個還沒有確定的……"],["郭委員國文：沒有確定？都已經起訴、這麼嚴重了，你要等到判刑確定才要懲處嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：起訴……"],["郭委員國文：你就告訴我……"],["郭部長智輝：起訴不代表定罪。"],["郭委員國文：以12年、10年起訴了。好，那你告訴我，如果定罪之後，你們要不要懲處？"],["郭部長智輝：如果定罪的話，我們當然懲處。"],["郭委員國文：懲處主管機關？懲處誰？到什麼階段？"],["郭部長智輝：我想這個法院會來……"],["郭委員國文：沒有！法院是法院，我是說行政機關，行政懲處的時候要不要送公務人員懲戒委員會？"],["郭部長智輝：我們會就法院的結果適時的懲處。"],["郭委員國文：好，必要的時候來懲處。第二個、這一家公司搞得烏煙瘴氣，讓整個綠能持續被污名化。我問一下，整個公司資本額虧了2.5億，已經快虧光了，聽說你們要再加碼，還是要把它收起來？方向怎麼樣？"],["郭部長智輝：這個方向都會做各種不同的評估。"],["郭委員國文：什麼時候會出來？"],["郭部長智輝：至於這個評估，我們會經過各種風險的評估……"],["郭委員國文：對，什麼時候嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：然後找出一個最適合的方法。"],["郭委員國文：什麼時候嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：出來的時候，我們再跟委員報告。"],["郭委員國文：什麼時候？要不要加一個時間點？要評估那麼久嗎？虧損累累……"],["郭部長智輝：臺鹽現在正在進行最後的評估。"],["郭委員國文：你就責成他們啊！臺鹽基本上是屬於一種國有的企業，卻沒有受到立法院的監督，有什麼事情我們找它的時候，擺出一副老大不管的樣子。7座案場有3座在我的選區，而且連找他來討論一下臺鹽博物館，卻愛理不理。這個就是你們自己行政監督的結果，搞出這麼多弊案！"],["郭部長智輝：臺鹽就像您剛才所指正的，我們持股38.8%是最大的股東。"],["郭委員國文：對！"],["郭部長智輝：但它已經是一個上市的公司，所以我們有很多的單位在監管它。"],["郭委員國文：也算是一個公股公司，主要的大股東是你們，你們占50%，你們是直接可以擁有決定權的。"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然會監督它的運作……"],["郭委員國文：你們監督不力，要好好檢討！"],["郭部長智輝：是，我也責成……"],["郭委員國文：我再跟你討論另一個問題，你看森霸第二期，到現在為止森霸二期的電業執照還遲遲未發。我就問你，整個森霸從去年6月以來，配合台電調度南科供電1.1GW，試運轉已經到這種狀況快一年了，為什麼證照還沒有發下來？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，我可以請署長跟你報告嗎？"],["郭委員國文：可以，請能源署長。"],["李代理署長君禮：因為立法院在1月有一個主決議，裡面有一些要求森霸要履行的事項，它還沒有完成。特別是……"],["郭委員國文：哪一個事項沒有完成？"],["李代理署長君禮：目前比較重要的就是希望它跟民眾辦理公開的說明會，讓民眾了解……"],["郭委員國文：公開的說明會辦過幾場，你知道嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：目前立法院要求它辦4場，之前它已經辦了1場，但是另外3場還沒有辦，所以我們希望它能夠儘快依照立法院的決議，把這3場辦完。"],["郭委員國文：說明會老早就已經辦過好幾次，一直強調所謂的安全檢測，就找了瑞士羅森公司來進行安全檢測。瑞士羅森公司也是負責中油管線檢測的公司，在沒有問題的情況底下，為什麼安全沒問題、什麼都沒有問題，結果你們執照遲遲不發送？"],["李代理署長君禮：事實上，我們在……"],["郭委員國文：我手頭上是好幾區的十幾個里長簽署的聲明書，他們希望你們趕快合法。"],["李代理署長君禮：所以我們希望森霸能夠依立法院的決議趕快辦說明會，辦完之後，可以符合……"],["郭委員國文：它辦好幾場了。"],["李代理署長君禮：因為後來經濟委員會有……"],["郭委員國文：已經快一年了！按照這種程序，你們如果不給執照的話，基本上是違法的。"],["李代理署長君禮：我們不會不給它執照，只要它完成……"],["郭委員國文：你們就拖了快一年，你一年沒有給的話，電協金的回饋金就沒有辦法運作！"],["李代理署長君禮：是，了解。"],["郭委員國文：我算一下電協金，以發電量來說，每一度要回饋0.018，48億度的話，每年回饋金額總共要8,640萬。"],["李代理署長君禮：是，所以我們還是希望……"],["郭委員國文：現在地方已經實質在承擔發電負擔的情況底下，你不給回饋金是什麼意思？"],["李代理署長君禮：是，所以我們希望森霸能夠儘快依立法院的主決議來完成，完成之後……"],["郭委員國文：有關這個主決議，基本上就已經辦過，之前就辦過好幾次，到底要辦幾場？"],["李代理署長君禮：因為那是作成主決議以後，希望它能夠再辦4場，目前辦一場，我們希望它趕快把另外3場辦完。"],["郭委員國文：到底要辦幾場？"],["李代理署長君禮：要求是辦4場，我們可以請它再辦，因為它有辦1場了，但是還不符合主決議的要求，所以我們希望它能夠儘快完成這個要求。"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，你要有guts一點！這明明是兩回事，那個說明會是為了一期，一期跟二期是兩回事，要脫鉤處理，你聽到沒有？"],["李代理署長君禮：了解。"],["郭委員國文：你剛代理署長而已，你要表現得跟上任署長不一樣，不要被拖著團團轉。"],["李代理署長君禮：好，我們會參考……"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，如果說你再弄不好，我就找你算帳。"],["李代理署長君禮：會的，我們再跟森霸來溝通，希望它儘快完成。"],["郭委員國文：搞什麼？這是違法的事情，你們竟然公開違法、瀆職！"],["李代理署長君禮：沒有違法，我們一定是照程序來審查。"],["郭委員國文：程序都已經給你們了，已經運轉快一年了，還沒有證照，這沒有違法？"],["李代理署長君禮：因為它目前的審查……"],["郭委員國文：已經經過國際公司的檢定了，已經安全無虞了，你還不給它？"],["李代理署長君禮：是！我們跟委員報告細節，第一個，之前它有送資料，它的資料是要件不齊全，所以我們有把它退回去。"],["郭委員國文：現在已經即時補件了啦！"],["李代理署長君禮：目前它還沒有送到我們這邊。"],["郭委員國文：之前已經即時補件了，如果沒有即時補件，你就罰它嘛！"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["郭委員國文：部長，我再問你一下，之前整個能源署出了問題，就是在KPI的問題，橫衝直撞、胡搞瞎搞，包括太陽能是這樣子，包括天然氣也是這樣子，天然氣用KPI的思考，硬要把九崴通過，結果弄到後來九崴也是受害者啊！之前我就跟你們講簽電力採購協定之前，一定要有環評，現在又知錯能改，改過來要環評了，部長，現在九崴有沒有辦法運轉？沒有辦法嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們都是依照法令規定在進行。"],["郭委員國文：我跟你講，法令要取得施工許可，必要條件是要經過環評，現在它沒有拿到環評，2月底合約已經到期了，現在已經到期的情況底下，你有沒有確定瞭解一下台電有沒有依法處罰款？"],["郭部長智輝：我請台電總經理跟你報告，好不好？"],["郭委員國文：有沒有？"],["王總經理耀庭：報告委員，九崴公司已經來函要求終止契約，只是這個終止契約的條件，譬如剛剛您提到的整個罰款金額怎麼計算，雙方還有一些爭議，這個爭議我們正在處理當中，大概目前的進度到這裡。"],["郭委員國文：目前在確認罰款的金額，那是什麼時候開始罰？"],["王總經理耀庭：依照合約，因為當時的合約在執行過程當中，有一些不可抗力的條件，我們在這方面有給它一些展延……"],["郭委員國文：那要罰幾個月才能終止契約？"],["王總經理耀庭：所以目前就是針對這個部分，我們認為要多罰一點，它認為要少罰一點，大家還在爭議……"],["郭委員國文：可是就時間上沒有argue的空間吧？金額多少，你們兩方可以談，可是就實質金額罰款6個月之後，今年應該8月25號就要終止契約條件了，不是嗎？"],["王總經理耀庭：是，我們預計罰它6個月的……"],["郭委員國文：所以最慢8月25號就依法終止契約？"],["王總經理耀庭：是，最慢到8月25號。"],["郭委員國文：最慢到8月25號，9月就結束了？"],["王總經理耀庭：因為它已經提前要求要提前終止契約。"],["郭委員國文：好，真正退場就8月25號？"],["王總經理耀庭：對！如果最晚的話，大概就是這個時候，就是合約會到那個時候結束，但是中間法律上的一些談判還是會繼續進行。"],["郭委員國文：我知道，我期待8月25號的結果，謝謝。"],["王總經理耀庭：是。"],["主席：我們現在請陳昭姿委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T12:10:56+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T12:24:10+08:00","duration":794,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.1953437500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.5915937500000004,"end":60.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.07596875,"end":36.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.76409375,"end":74.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.55096875000001,"end":75.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.64784375,"end":96.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.16034375000001,"end":90.59909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.84284375,"end":97.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.61909375,"end":116.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.71846875000001,"end":110.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.63721875,"end":119.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.56909375000001,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.19659375,"end":140.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.75159375,"end":154.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.04971875,"end":150.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.47096875,"end":158.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.63471875000002,"end":173.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.14409375000002,"end":167.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.47284375,"end":169.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.80971875,"end":197.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.32846875,"end":176.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.35346875000002,"end":177.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.76409375,"end":195.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.38846875000002,"end":203.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.61096875,"end":204.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.03284375,"end":215.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.08346875,"end":204.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.59721875000002,"end":211.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.72346875000002,"end":213.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.83721875,"end":217.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.21659375000002,"end":222.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.13596875000002,"end":219.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":222.08909375000002,"end":222.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.30846875,"end":236.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.52721875,"end":227.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.63534375,"end":249.35909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.85284375,"end":249.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.46034375000002,"end":253.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":253.18971875000003,"end":255.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.13034375,"end":255.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.78846875000002,"end":255.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.80534375000002,"end":255.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.83909375000002,"end":256.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.44659375000003,"end":256.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.59846875,"end":256.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.76721875000004,"end":261.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.12971875,"end":284.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.86221875,"end":271.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.01784375,"end":273.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.61659375,"end":275.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.32034375,"end":281.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.30721875,"end":293.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.37846875,"end":287.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.92659375,"end":289.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.03159375,"end":294.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":293.95971875000004,"end":295.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.08596875,"end":298.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.35159375,"end":318.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":306.19409375000004,"end":306.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.97034375000004,"end":309.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.18096875000003,"end":311.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.74596875000003,"end":311.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.97346875,"end":316.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.11221875,"end":325.43159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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願意後來也針對國中部分有增設一個那時候叫做學務創新能力啦實際上就是校安人員啦應該是這樣啦可是去年 今年一月啦今年一月份那時候是回覆我們是說"},{"start":378.358,"end":391.153,"text":"現在是朝那方面研議然後會跟地方政府討論然後再簽辦那我不知道說這個校安人員的最新的有沒有確定的方案呢現在有兩個方案在跟地方協調我們是不是請那個"},{"start":393.135,"end":407.653,"text":"謝謝委員關心委員關心從去年到現在他的進度是這樣我簡單的回覆兩個地方第一個是委員講了之後也會回委員我們的方向那在3月4號的時候把這個方向變成具體的跟地方政府也溝通過"},{"start":408.494,"end":433.171,"text":"由學校自己選那兩種方法之一種那現在也是一樣在地方的這個才化法因為它叫年年要這樣實施所以有一些溝通允許我們跟地方政府再說服他們這是有必要而且經費上我們會一起來努力市長跟市長其實我們在這邊我們大家都是討論教育問題大家不用動不動就把才化法搬出來所以現在的做法到底是怎麼樣"},{"start":434.311,"end":438.516,"text":"組長可不可以很明確就現在已經確定兩個確定已經兩個方案114學年兩個方案學校會選好那各學校現在是主要是選擇偵測副組長比較多還是選擇專職的校安人力比較多以你現在溝通的狀況"},{"start":451.889,"end":479.218,"text":"以我們3月4號溝通之後縣市他還在跟學校做磋商以我前天調查的情況還沒有明確讓我們知道學校選擇情形跟委員會報但3月4號我們已經跟地方政府說明過了說明過後他足及會跟他所屬的比如說30個學校120個國中等等要做說明及選擇那個還沒有選擇完還沒選擇完所以到時候地方政府的教育局會整理完之後會報給你這邊嘛對不對然後你再統一簽報嘛是是是"},{"start":480.939,"end":491.017,"text":"對不對好那所以就是有在進行當中啦有有謝謝然後再來跟也跟那個次長問另外一個議題這個議題我那是前一陣子的議題但是我"},{"start":493.411,"end":522.183,"text":"個人非常好奇啦就是那個時候教育部開了一個性評會議把林玉婷列為這個性別身份資格選手的參賽的權益保障措施我先請教一下啦我實在不太懂為什麼當時啊討論性別身份資格的這個權益保障會以林玉婷為例因為就我們的立場我們全台灣的人都認為說林玉婷沒有什麼性別的問題啊她就是女性啊她就是女性嘛她只是說"},{"start":523.283,"end":538.283,"text":"國際權總不知道是為什麼去質疑他全台灣都是支持他就是女性他絕對沒有問題可是為什麼在討論性別身份資格的時候會以林玉婷為例到底當時你們的想法到底是什麼"},{"start":538.663,"end":554.003,"text":"我請署長來回答報告委員其實這個是當時我們在這件新聞出來之後呢其實我們的教育部本部這邊也做了一個新聞澄清當時的會議的確是討論林玉婷的事件在奧運我們體育署做了哪些努力去保護她免於網路霸凌"},{"start":554.523,"end":572.415,"text":"但是呢在當下有委員也在結束的時候也順帶一提說我們現在全中運也是有這些的類似跨性別一些性別的一些議題那也希望體育署好好去處理所以在會議紀錄上面他們把它給混淆了其實是兩件事情所以這部分我們也修正了"},{"start":573.737,"end":591.683,"text":"所以第二點宣導跨性別運動選手性別身份的認定這個不是指林玉婷這是另外一件事會議紀錄林玉婷但是會議紀錄這樣一出來因為你的題目是以權及選手林玉婷而立大家以為是個案嘛所以就認為說你是不是認為他是跨性別是吧"},{"start":592.903,"end":620.494,"text":"我說外界是這樣覺得嘛後來我們做修正但我覺得你們的澄清真的不夠清楚啦為什麼 因為你看喔你們後來就是有去修正那個會議記錄你修正會議記錄前面一頁你修正會議記錄呢你就是把一堆全部都刪掉了然後就說決定洽息請紀御署繼續維護選手參賽權益你就把它改成一句話"},{"start":621.95,"end":641.578,"text":"可是你看喔那時候人家問你們說為什麼你要去更改會議紀錄你的說法是什麼你們的說法是說那個新聞是說教育部認錯文字簡略導致誤解文字簡略導致誤解結果你去修改會議紀錄你修到更簡略你本來是三段"},{"start":642.622,"end":663.232,"text":"然後你覺得太簡略太簡略你應該要像剛剛次長跟署長這樣子解釋嘛對不對就是比如說題目把它改掉啊題目說我們其實在討論性別然後把林玉婷的名字拿掉嘛把林玉婷的名字拿掉然後比如說第一點你回到那個上一頁會議記錄好不好比如說你如果我是我要改的話"},{"start":664.352,"end":682.844,"text":"我第一個喔性別身分資格選手參賽權益保障措施我就會把以權級選手林玉婷拿掉對不對因為不是以她為個案嘛這個主題不是她嘛她只是決定一二三其中的一個嘛所以應該是林玉婷不要出現在題目上"},{"start":683.504,"end":700.939,"text":"然後一然後二然後三然後提到就是說哎呀林玉婷因為這個事情被攻擊那以後呢如果我們再遇到的話我們應該怎麼support她她應該在小點裡面她不是在大體裡面然後結果你們的修改方式是她還是在大體裡面"},{"start":702.401,"end":717.635,"text":"然後決定變一句話可是你們因為一般去改那個會議紀錄是比較罕見啦但是我覺得改我也支持為什麼因為不要造成誤會可是你改你改得更奇怪你還是把林玉婷放在題目上面"},{"start":720.517,"end":729.063,"text":"我是建議說你們再去改啦好不好再改一個版本啦因為這個東西現在網路上還是看得到下次先會不是因為你真的你現在我們去看我們現在去看我們還是會覺得說奇怪了為什麼"},{"start":733.906,"end":754.841,"text":"你討論性別身份你要講林玉婷林玉婷到底是有什麼性別身份問題我們還是會這樣子認定啊所以請你把林玉婷拿掉然後你下面在說明的地方你就前面就講跟林玉婷無關的東西嘛你最後一段就說有委員提到林玉婷類似發生這樣被攻擊事件下一次我們應該怎麼去"},{"start":756.002,"end":783.632,"text":"Support類似的狀況你應該要這樣子修正啦好 我們就請委員會這邊來我就覺得因為你越改越大家覺得你越改越奇怪當時談的問題跟這個問題是兩件事嘛剛好那個關心林玉婷的委員提到她的事情我知道我知道可是你們次長你講的這個東西呈現在書面白紙黑字就不是這樣所以既然你要改我建議說你再改一個版本"},{"start":784.372,"end":790.237,"text":"不要讓正義的東西 意在網路上被全部的人看到好 我們會再提會議把它修正OK 好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":816,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時10分）你好，麻煩請教育部次長，謝謝。"],["主席：請次長備詢。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝，委員好。"],["葉委員元之：次長好。其實營養午餐真的非常重要，我們在地方跑的時候，常常也有小朋友或家長跟我們反映營養午餐的問題，當然，好不好吃是另外一回事，但是重點是有的時候品質的把關這塊，大家會提出一些憂心。譬如我現在給你看這個圖，這不是發生在我們新北市，但這是最近的事情，就是成大南工發生營養午餐裡面的酥炸銀絲卷捏出大半碗油。其實這就牽涉到我們營養午餐：第一個，品質，有沒有出現異物？第二個，在營養上面，有沒有做到不管在食材上面或者營養的分配上達到均衡？","我現在先點出3個現行狀況的問題。第一個問題就是，按照現在的法規規定，只有在40班以上，自辦的廚房才要設營養師，就是自立廚房、自辦的、40班以上，才要有營養師。但實際上次長應該很清楚，現在40班以上的學校也沒有那麼多。"],["張廖次長萬堅：很少，用人數會比較準。"],["葉委員元之：對，所以它不是全部都需要，只有40班以上才要。第二個，有一些是自立廚房，可是它是委外辦理的，如果是委外辦理，學校就沒有設營養師，其營養師是設在委外的單位。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["葉委員元之：委外單位的營養師，我不能說它的營養師有問題，但是因為是委辦單位設的營養師……"],["張廖次長萬堅：關係比較近。"],["葉委員元之：關係比較近，當然，有時候有可能會睜一隻眼、閉一隻眼。第三個，團膳的部分，就是不是自立廚房，而是團膳的部分，其營養師的規範也是由團膳的業者或便當業者自己訂定。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["葉委員元之：而且團膳業者的營養師有時候會去學校支援一些營養教育，負擔也非常重，所以這些其實都是現在的問題。現在有營養師的國中跟國小大概只有占不到20%，比例也是滿低的，所以我們定這個專法其實是很有必要，就是制定專法把營養師這個重要角色的規範訂定清楚。第二個，針對午餐秘書及廚工等等相關規範，我覺得這個是應該要做的，對吧？次長，您應該也是同意嘛？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，沒有錯。"],["葉委員元之：不過，有一個點，按照你們即將提出來的版本，假設是自辦的自立廚房，如果是委外的話，學校是「得」設營養師……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["葉委員元之：現在規劃是這樣嗎？「得」就是可以或不可以，都可以，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：公辦公營是「應」。"],["葉委員元之：對，公辦公營是「應」。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員有提到其他的話是「得」。委員，我可以講一下嗎？我們114年度法定應該聘的營養師是474，其實我們也知道不足，所以我們實際聘了681，超過法規最低的標準，偏鄉的部分也在加碼，有些還有用專案經理人的方式來取代這個角色，其實現在聘了七百多。"],["葉委員元之：公辦公營的部分我現在沒有要跟你討論，我跟你討論的是，自立廚房但是委外的部分是用「得」。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，「得」。"],["葉委員元之：其實我們建議應該也是要「應」，因為學校必須要有營養師去跟它對接，對不對？不然的話，剛剛次長其實你也提到了，關係比較近嘛。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，自立廚房都是比較偏鄉的。"],["葉委員元之：對，所以是不是可以考慮把委外的部分也改成「應」，讓學校可以多一個監督跟把關的機制？第二個，像團膳業者，你也知道，能夠供應這麼多學校跟學童的團膳業者其實非常有限，學校對於他們當然可以按照合約去監督，可是在人力上面，如果能有一個專職的營養師去跟他對接，其實對學校營養午餐的把關上也會比較好。"],["張廖次長萬堅：比較好一點，對。"],["葉委員元之：次長，不知道能不能朝那個方向去努力？"],["張廖次長萬堅：朝那個方向就是經費會再增加，你看光是公辦公營的營養師增加，就要兩億七了，550人的話……"],["葉委員元之：對啦！我覺得我們先來考慮該不該做這個事情，就是站在學童營養、健康的角度去探討該不該做這個事情。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我們會再跟地方討論。"],["葉委員元之：如果大家覺得該做，當然經費的部分大家再來討論，譬如說財劃法通過之後，中央、地方各負擔多少，當然大家可以去談，可是我們要先確定這個事情是該做或不該做，不應該……"],["張廖次長萬堅：這部分主要是增加在地方的部分，而地方認為是「得」或「應」，我們也會尊重他們的意思。"],["葉委員元之：我聽說很多地方建議應該改為「應」。"],["張廖次長萬堅：那時候因為都是中央補助。"],["葉委員元之：不能夠要我出錢我就覺得不要做；不要我出錢就應該要做，到底是該做還是不該做呢？我們應站在學校的角度或學生的角度去想這個事情，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，這是現實考慮，站在中央的立場……"],["葉委員元之：我們先確定該不該做，我個人是覺得應該做啦！"],["張廖次長萬堅：尊重委員的想法。"],["葉委員元之：你看我們秀出來的這個圖，就是「捏出大半碗油」！"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會把各個版本方案列出來，就是「得」跟「應」各會是多少錢，我們也會問地方的意見，然後中央、地方一起來討論。"],["葉委員元之：我相信如果有營養師的話，現在在PPT上面看到的這種狀況就會減少很多，次長同意嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，這是管理的問題。"],["葉委員元之：有營養師當然就是多一個管理，絕對是比較好的，而且營養的部分他可以把關。","第二個，同樣也是學校人力的問題，我要跟次長或是署長請教一下，上個會期我們都很關心國中的校安人力，之前國教署的回應是說有增設一個副組長的津貼，後來我們也跟教育部不斷地溝通，也謝謝教育部願意針對國中的部分增設一個叫做學務創新人力，實際上就是校安人員，應該就是這樣子；今年1月那時你們曾回復我們說，現在是朝那方面研議，會跟地方政府討論，然後再簽辦，但我不知道這個校安人員最新的狀況如何，有沒有確定的方案呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：現在有兩個方案在跟地方協調，我請署長來說明。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員關心，從去年到現在它的進度是這樣的，我簡單的回復兩個地方，第一個，委員講完之後我們也有回覆委員我們的方向，在3月4號的時候，我們把這個方向變成具體的，跟地方政府也溝通過，由學校自己選擇兩種方法之一種，現在也是一樣，在地方的財劃法，因為它是要年年這樣來實施，所以有一些的溝通，請容許我們跟地方政府再溝通、再說服他們，這是有必要的，而且經費上我們都會一起來努力。"],["葉委員元之：次長、署長，其實我們大家在這邊都是討論教育問題，大家不用動不動就把財劃法搬出來，所以現在的作法到底是怎麼樣？署長，這部分可不可以很明確？現在已經確定有兩個方案去跟地方政府……"],["彭署長富源：114學年有兩個方案，然後學校會去選。"],["葉委員元之：好，那各學校現在選擇增設副組長比較多，還是選擇專職的校安人力比較多？以現在溝通的狀況來說。"],["彭署長富源：跟委員回報，3月4號我們進行溝通之後，縣市還在跟學校做磋商，以我前天調查的情況，目前還沒有明確到讓我們知道學校選擇的情形，但3月4號我們就跟地方政府說明過了，說明過後它會逐級地跟它所屬的，譬如說30個學校、120個國中等等，要做說明及選擇，而那個選擇的部分還沒有選擇完。"],["葉委員元之：還沒選擇完？"],["彭署長富源：對。"],["葉委員元之：所以到時候地方政府教育局整理完之後會報到你這邊，然後你再統一簽報，對不對？"],["彭署長富源：是。"],["葉委員元之：好，所以就是有在進行當中。"],["張廖次長萬堅：有。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。","再來要問次長另外一個議題，這是前一陣子的議題，但是我個人非常好奇，那個時候教育部開了一個性平會議，當中以林郁婷為例，將其列在性別身分資格選手的參賽權益保障措施的內容中，我先請教一下，我實在不太懂，為什麼當時討論性別身分資格選手的參賽權益保障措施會以林郁婷為例？因為就我們的立場，我們全臺灣的人都認為林郁婷沒有什麼性別的問題，她就是女性啊！只是國際拳總不知道為什麼去質疑她，全臺灣都支持她就是女性，她絕對沒有問題，可是為什麼在討論性別身分資格選手的時候，會以林郁婷為例？當時你們的想法到底是什麼？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我請署長來回答。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，當時我們在這件新聞出來之後，其實我們的教育部本部這邊也做了一個新聞澄清，當時的會議的確是討論林郁婷的事件，在奧運當中我們體育署做了哪些努力去保護她免於網路霸凌。但是當下有委員在結束的時候，也順帶一提說，我們現在的全中運也是有這些類似跨性別的性別議題，也希望體育署好好去處理，所以在會議紀錄上面，他們把她的這件事情給混淆了，其實這是兩件事情，所以這部分我們也修正了。"],["葉委員元之：所以「(二)……宣導跨性別運動選手性別身分的認定……」這個不是指林郁婷？"],["張廖次長萬堅：那個無關……"],["葉委員元之：這是另外一件事？"],["張廖次長萬堅：會議紀錄已經修正。"],["葉委員元之：所以當時會議紀錄這樣一出來，因為你的題目是「以拳擊選手林郁婷為例」，大家以為這個是個案，所以想說你是不是認為她是跨性別，是吧？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對！當然不是。"],["葉委員元之：我是說外界是這樣覺得。"],["張廖次長萬堅：後來我們做了修正。"],["葉委員元之：但是我覺得你們的澄清真的不夠清楚，為什麼？你們後來有去修正會議紀錄，就是把一堆文字全部都刪掉了，然後變成「決定：洽悉，請體育署賡續維護選手參賽權益。」你就是把它改成一句話，可是那時候人家問你們為什麼要去更改會議紀錄時，新聞是提到「教育部認錯：文字簡略導致誤解」，都已經是文字簡略導致誤解，結果你還把會議紀錄修改到更簡略，本來有三段，你覺得太簡略，若太簡略的話，就應該要像剛剛次長跟署長這樣子的解釋，比如說把題目改掉，若是我來改的話，「性別身分資格選手的參賽權益保障措施，以拳擊選手林郁婷為例」的文字，我就會把「以拳擊選手林郁婷為例」拿掉，因為不是以她為個案，這個主題不是她，她只是決定(一)、(二)、(三)的其中一個，所以應該是「林郁婷」等字不要出現在題目上；然後接(一)、(二)、(三)；再提到林郁婷因為這個事情被攻擊，以後如果我們再遇到的話，我們應該怎麼support她，她應該在小點裡面，而不是在大題裡面，結果你們的修改方式是她還是在大題裡面，然後決定的部分變成只有一句話，因為一般會去改會議紀錄的情況是比較罕見的，但是改掉我也是支持的，為什麼？因為不要造成誤會，可是你改得更奇怪，還是把「林郁婷」放在題目上面，我建議你們再去改一個版本，因為這個東西現在網路上還是看得到。"],["張廖次長萬堅：下次性平會開的時候在……"],["葉委員元之：我們現在去看還是會覺得奇怪，為什麼你討論性別身分時要講到林郁婷，林郁婷到底是有什麼性別身分的問題？我們還是會這樣子認定啊！所以請你把「林郁婷」拿掉，然後下面說明的地方，比方說前面就講一些跟林郁婷無關的東西，最後一段再說，因為有委員提到林郁婷發生類似被攻擊的事件，下次我們應該怎樣去support類似的狀況，你應該要這樣子修正啦！"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員這樣講非常好，我們會請性平會來修正。"],["葉委員元之：因為大家覺得你越改越奇怪。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，當時談的問題跟這個問題是兩個問題。"],["葉委員元之：兩件事嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：剛好關心林郁婷的委員提到了她的事情，要把她放在……"],["葉委員元之：我知道！可是次長你講的這個東西呈現在書面、白紙黑字上就不是這樣，既然你要改，我建議你再改一個版本，不要讓有爭議的東西一直在網路上被全部的人看到，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，我們會請性平會來做修正，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員質詢，官員請回座。接下來我們繼續請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra 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這一些還好啦沒有花那麼大的F這個確實它需要一些軟硬體"},{"start":314.746,"end":341.344,"text":"我們勉強在既有的資金預算雖然被砍了很多可是我們還是要擠一點因為對國家整體競爭力還有行政效率提升有關我們還是要努力所以我們希望AI未來納入整個績效的考核機制可以讓各部門導入AI之後行政作業時間看可不可以縮短然後服務滿意度可以來提升甚至成本降低"},{"start":341.804,"end":359.919,"text":"這是我們努力的方向本席今天特別在這邊質詢也就是希望說您可以朝這個方向我們未來行政部門的效率還有進入AI時代我們的行政院團隊就是AI智慧行動團隊所以希望您能夠大力的來促成好不好"},{"start":360.379,"end":388.209,"text":"這些事情都放在心上要付諸行動我剛才跟委員報告了就是從上一年12月開始我們就開始啟動各個不同階段的一個導入的一個計畫對那我最後講的整個未來的績效考核各方面還有那個變名錄希望下一次您再來報告的時候我們應該可以就更進一步來做了解好不好可以可以好謝謝"},{"start":389.389,"end":389.59,"text":"好 謝謝習近平委員 叫你等命"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1030,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時17分）謝謝主席，本席請蘇俊榮人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員午安。"],["徐委員欣瑩：人事長好。今天本席想跟你就教，在AI時代來臨了，你有感受到嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有啊，很強烈。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那準備了嗎？整個行政部門面對AI時代來臨，有沒有任何的準備？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，在上一年6月6日我們就簽陳行政院，院長也批示了，我們會啟動公務機關人工智慧的導入計畫，我們也分好幾個梯次召訓所有的部會首長，還有次長、機關首長，甚至司長、次長，這是屬於high 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麻煩請蘇人事長請人事長"},{"start":11.195,"end":37.643,"text":"委員午安 陳市長午安今天是三月二十號是郵政節本席剛十點去參加中華郵政的慶祝大會但是郵政節最近我們看到中華郵政的員工居然兩萬四千名都收到通知引發部分的員工不滿表達拒簽主要是說是要被要求說要簽署所謂的未在大陸涉及的拒絕書"},{"start":39.484,"end":56.652,"text":"請教任市長您知道說這個是屬於中華郵政單一個案還是我們國營事業都有被要求有針對中華郵政嗎我們是轉公文給交通部當然是交通部轉的所以是交通部轉那你們有要求說國營事業也應該要簽拒絕書嗎"},{"start":61.653,"end":78.87,"text":"他現在是一個階段性的主要是以軍公教核心能力先填這個國營事業員工是算軍公教人員他應該是算因為他裡面有些是算事業員工是用什麼樣的法"},{"start":79.978,"end":95.582,"text":"勞基法還是軍公校人員它裡面有些是運用公務人員護法,有些是用勞基法是,但主要是適用勞基法如果水桶移轉的話,它也是適用公務人員的規定有多少比例這個我要查一下"},{"start":98.072,"end":118.428,"text":"我們現在所謂的這個現行國營事業不管是糖店、油水、郵政等相關不管是交通部所屬、經濟部所屬大部分的員工都適用勞基法那我現在這樣請教是說這一個拒絕書到底我們的這個所謂的命令或是我們的行政教練法原依據在哪邊"},{"start":120.742,"end":134.233,"text":"你剛有提到是說是人事總署轉給我們的交通部對各部會啦你有要求交通部再轉下去沒有啊交通部收到以後他們就會自己去處理啊所以是交通部的問題不是你人事總署的問題"},{"start":136.175,"end":164.69,"text":"目前第一個階段我們理解的大概以軍公教這是是嗎 你講是軍公教嘛 但是交通部他可能廣義事業 因為其實有可能以所詳的廣義事業他順便也轉下去 因為有剛才委員提的交通部嘛 經濟部嘛還有財政部嘛 研究院嘛 但是本席就看到因為國營事業員工並不是公務人員嘛適用的是勞基法就業服務法或勞基法相關規定雇主不能要求員工"},{"start":165.45,"end":184.507,"text":"提供非所屬就業所需的隱私資料那這點 我覺得這也不是隱私資料啊這不是隱私資料嗎要不然你問說有一些相關的規定這個欄位事實上也是很簡單也沒有跟什麼隱私有關而且他也沒有"},{"start":185.629,"end":209.531,"text":"你如果不填也沒有處罰他是一個鼓勵性的人不填也沒有處罰是因為收到拒絕書之後大家有些員工嘩然反彈會說為什麼會現在在這時候要簽這個拒絕書也因此才會有單位出來講是說不填沒有關係但是今天當一個上級長官發了一個公文要求所有員工都填的時候你認為有員工敢不填嗎"},{"start":210.832,"end":224.999,"text":"這不是慣老闆的心態嗎我現在老闆要你做什麼你員工就是下屬你員工就是反正聽我的就對了幾十年前或許會這樣可是現在年輕人的想法跟我們以前的想法會不一樣"},{"start":226.124,"end":233.95,"text":"他可能是覺得我根本不需要填為什麼我要填是啊那為什麼要發所以現在是說慣了條例九字一條全國適用全國適用我先再請教我們現在的現行規定國營事業是不是已經禁止雙重國籍"},{"start":246.865,"end":265.981,"text":"國營事業你如果是管理階層的事啊本來依規定國人就不能在中國大陸涉及否則就會註銷台灣身份證嘛對啊這就是法令上的規定啊所以現在入取的國營事業的員工是不是本來就已經沒有他只有台灣身份證嘛"},{"start":267.168,"end":287.325,"text":"如果說他有中國大陸的設計的話他早就被註銷了根本不可能入局啊所以你現在是在配合政府又在做大內宣他沒有對方的可是過去這幾年來可能他服務10年20年這期間他有去入局我們會做一個普查的概念"},{"start":288.206,"end":306.844,"text":"所以現在 您承認現在是做普查的概念所以你現在就是承認在探尋隱私目前這個階段是以軍公教 軍公教核心沒有錯 軍公教 我剛剛開宗明義就說我沒有在討論軍公教嘛我現在討論的是國營事業是不是適用你的相關法令嘛"},{"start":308.427,"end":326.374,"text":"有嗎國營事業我們現在你的法令有國營事業的員工是勞基法除非你修法提出來修法讓國人知道說現在連國營事業只要是用勞基法的甚至未來可能你如果說勞基法要修法的話那私人企業也都要拒絕啊也都要拒絕"},{"start":327.694,"end":355.94,"text":"國營事業裡面有很多人是公監了尤其在管理階層的我們當然是要...多少比例 你剛剛沒有講清楚但大部分國營事業現在就是沒有公務人員的身份嘛報告委員 那個批論我們請你解釋一下 送給你好不好所以 任市長您站在人事的角度本席為什麼會提出來重點在於是您站在人事的角度您應該是要保障的是我們所有員工的權益"},{"start":357.13,"end":381.452,"text":"保障的是我們所有不管是公教人員不管是我們國營事業人員員工的權益不是嗎來 任市長我再請教一下上午我知道你有答詢的時候已經有接收到說勞動節你認為是說可以由全國統一放假是不是我不反對這樣的一個open discussion"},{"start":382.389,"end":394.892,"text":"不反對這樣的一個公開討論對對不對那但是在前兩天內政委員會在做這個討論修法的時候我們人事總署的意見是什麼"},{"start":397.873,"end":417.12,"text":"那一天沒有問我們意見啊有啊我們有書面報告書面報告你忘了看是不是當然有啊 那一天問了好幾個部會教育部 國防部 人事總署都有啊一定是尊重主管機關所以你是尊重嘛 你不反對你沒有把你不反對寫出來嘛"},{"start":418.661,"end":431.866,"text":"我再來請教因為你去年九月有回應是說統一放假是取決於內政部是否修改相關的辦法人事總署再加以調整但是你會跟內政部溝通啊"},{"start":432.711,"end":461.971,"text":"那既然現在勞動節五一其實從2016年前蔡英文總統她宣誓就說全國應該要有一致性的時候我們很多的民進黨的委員有提案啊要五一勞動節應該全體放假第九屆有這樣的提案第十屆有這樣的提案到第十一屆現在有好幾個委員的版本那我想請教人事總署人事長有沒有再積極的跟我們內政部來溝通"},{"start":464.712,"end":487.247,"text":"是不是已站在全國休假一致性避免造成困擾的一個情況下我相信過去這幾年你應該有接收到很多我們公教人員對你的反應對你的陳情 對你的拜託認為說五一勞動節是不是有機會能夠全國一致適用沒有 我沒有接到我們同仁因為我們同仁沒有跟我提這樣"},{"start":488.268,"end":508.182,"text":"人事長 如果你講這樣的話我就覺得你真的是活在雲端啊你跟基層的員工距離太遠了你既然可以這樣子講代表你跟基層的員工距離太遠了你活在雲端 你活在辦公室你沒有接收到我們全國廣大軍公教人員的心聲我感到非常失望 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":965,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時8分）謝謝主席，麻煩請蘇人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員午安。"],["洪委員孟楷：人事長午安。今天是3月20號，是郵政節，本席剛剛10點去參加中華郵政的慶祝大會，但是最近我們看到中華郵政居然2萬4,000名的員工都收到通知，引發部分的員工不滿，表達拒簽，主要就是被要求說要簽署所謂的未在大陸涉籍的具結書。請教人事長，您知道這個是屬於中華郵政的單一個案，還是我們國營事業都有被要求？有針對中華郵政嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們是轉公文給交通部，大概是交通部轉的。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以是交通部轉的，那你們有要求國營事業也應該要簽具結書嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在是一個階段性的，主要是以軍公教核心人力先填這個具結書。"],["洪委員孟楷：國營事業的員工是算軍公教人員嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：他們應該是算，因為它裡面有些是算公兼勞……"],["洪委員孟楷：事業員工是適用什麼樣的法？是勞基法還是軍公教人員相關法規？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：它裡面有些適用公務人員服務法，有些適用勞基法。"],["洪委員孟楷：但主要是適用勞基法。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：如果他是隨同移轉的也是適用公務人員的規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：有多少比例？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個我要查一下，現在我手頭上沒有這個資料。"],["洪委員孟楷：人事長，現在所謂的現行國營事業，不管是糖、電、油、水、郵政等相關，不管是交通部所屬或經濟部所屬，大部分的員工都適用勞基法，我想請教的是，這個具結書或所謂的命令行政效力、法源依據在哪邊？你剛剛有提到是人事總處轉給交通部？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，各部會。"],["洪委員孟楷：你有要求交通部再轉下去？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，交通部收到以後他們就會自己去處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以是交通部的問題，不是人事總處的問題？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前第一個階段我們理解的大概是以軍公教為核心。"],["洪委員孟楷：你講的是軍公教，但是交通部可能延伸……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：它有可能所轄的國營事業也順便轉下去，因為有剛才委員提到的交通部、經濟部還有財政部。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是本席看到，因為國營事業員工並不是公務人員，他們適用的是就業服務法或勞基法相關規定，雇主不得要求員工提供非所屬就業所需的隱私資料，人事長，這點……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得這也不是隱私資料。"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是隱私資料嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：它是要問一些相關規定，這個欄位事實上也是很簡單，也沒有跟隱私有關，而且你如果不填也沒有處罰，它是一個鼓勵性質。"],["洪委員孟楷：不填也沒有處罰是因為收到具結書之後，有些員工譁然、反彈，為什麼會在這時候要簽具結書，也因此才會有單位出來講不填沒有關係，但是當上級長官發了一個公文要求所有員工都要填的時候，你認為有員工敢不填嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一定會有。"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是慣老闆的心態嗎？現在老闆要你做什麼，員工就是下屬，員工反正聽我的就對了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：幾十年前或許會這樣，可是現在年輕人的想法跟我們以前的想法不一樣了，他可能會覺得他根本不需要填，為什麼他要填。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！那為什麼要發啊？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基於兩岸人民關係條例第九條之一全國適用。"],["洪委員孟楷：這就是慣老闆，為什麼要發？人事長，我再請教，依照現行規定，國營事業是不是已經禁止雙重國籍？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：如果是管理階層的人是。"],["洪委員孟楷：依規定，國人本來就不能在中國大陸設籍，否則就會註銷臺灣身分證。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對啊！"],["洪委員孟楷：這就是法令上的規定。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這是兩岸人民關係條例的規定。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以錄取的國營事業員工是不是本來就已經沒有？他只有臺灣身分證，如果他有在中國大陸設籍的話，他早就被註銷了，根本不可能錄取，所以你現在是配合政府又在做大內宣。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，剛錄取的時候可能他沒有對方的，可是過去這幾年來，可能他服務10年、20年後，這期間他有去入籍，我們會做一個普查的概念。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你承認現在是做普查的概念，你現在承認是在探詢隱私，做普查的概念。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這一個階段是以軍公教為核心。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是你的法源依據呢？沒有錯，我剛剛開宗明義就說我沒有在討論軍公教，我現在討論的是國營事業，是不是適用你的相關法令，有嗎？國營事業的員工是適用勞基法，除非你提出修法，讓國人知道現在連國營事業只要適用勞基法的，甚至未來如果勞基法修法的話，連私人企業也都要切結、也都要具結。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，國營事業裡面有很多的是公兼勞，尤其在管理階層，我們當然是要求……"],["洪委員孟楷：多少比例？你剛剛沒有講清楚，但大部分國營事業現在就是沒有具公務人員的身分。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：報告委員，比例的部分我們整理一下再送過去給你，好不好？"],["洪委員孟楷：人事長，你站在人事的角度，本席為什麼會提出來？重點在於是你站在人事的角度，應該要保障的是我們所有員工的權益，保障所有不管是公教人員或是國營事業員工的權益，不是嗎？人事長，我再請教一下，我知道上午答詢的時候你已經被問到勞動節的議題，你認為可以全國統一放假，是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我不反對這樣的open discussion。"],["洪委員孟楷：不反對這樣的公開討論，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是前兩天內政委員會在討論修法的時候，人事總處的意見是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那一天沒有問我們意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：有啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們有書面報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然有，書面報告你忘了看，是不是？當然有啊！那一天問了好幾個部會，教育部、國防部、人事總處，都有啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們一定是尊重主管機關內政部。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你是尊重，你不反對，你沒有把你不反對寫出來。我再請教，因為你去年9月有回應統一放假是取決於內政部是否修改相關的辦法，人事總處再加以調整，但是你會跟內政部溝通，既然現在五一勞動節，其實從2016年蔡英文前總統宣示全國應該要有一致性的時候，我們很多的民進黨委員也有提案，關於五一勞動節應該要全體放假，第9屆有這樣的提案，第10屆有這樣的提案，到第11屆現在有好幾個委員的版本，我想請教人事總處人事長，有沒有再積極地跟內政部來溝通？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們都……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是站在全國休假一致性，避免造成困擾的情況下，我相信過去這幾年你應該有接收到很多公教人員對你的反映、對你的陳情、對你的拜託，他們認為五一勞動節是不是有機會能夠全國一致適用？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，我沒有接到我們同仁的反映，我們同仁沒有跟我提過。"],["洪委員孟楷：人事長，如果你講這樣的話，我覺得你真的是活在雲端，你跟基層的員工距離太遠了，你竟然可以這樣子講，代表你跟基層的員工距離太遠了，你活在雲端、你活在辦公室，你沒有接收到全國廣大軍公教人員的心聲，我感到非常失望，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}},{"id":"159470","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159470","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0cfcf73853d68980db06f2ced2e0bc0906c2779210393a151e9d50a309363faa25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"12:05:12 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者是面對美國的關稅他提出來營業稅是貿易障礙那我們有沒有其他的措施要提出來有沒有什麼其他的備案或答案"},{"start":163.64,"end":174.907,"text":"謝謝委員,對於3月即將到期,也就是有相關的那個所謂的貨物稅、營業稅以及關稅那是大宗物資的相關進口的一些稅,那個是基於穩定國內的物價的一個工作,目的是這樣那在3月底即將接鄰之前,下個禮拜行政院的物價督導小組會再開會,穩定物價小組會開會"},{"start":187.615,"end":192.899,"text":"那這個部分會整個評估所有的情勢那妳的評估方向是什麼還會繼續延期這個部分第一個國發會農業部經濟部都會提出相關市場上的一些的我想也應該會評估到跟美國的貿易談判吧"},{"start":203.706,"end":228.084,"text":"這一定是貿易的一個部分我想這是先這個部分那第二個就是在於川普所提出來的對等關稅就是剛剛委員所提到也很關切的這個部分那對等關稅他當然提到說他4月1號、4月2號要做可是問題是對等關稅他所提出來的那個概念是不是跟我們自己所想像的那沒關係不管他的概念是什麼我們總是有幾套劇本沒有錯所以呢我們"},{"start":229.085,"end":234.974,"text":"政府部門其實都已經持續的在做這個工作第一個就是我們會去盤點像以財政部來說我們去盤點從美國進口的我們的前排序的進口值最大的什麼樣的貨品還有我們出口到美國的"},{"start":245.249,"end":264.541,"text":"最大的貨品的數量是什麼然後我的相對的關稅是多少這個部分我們都有去做盤點第二個就是說如果說他調高關稅在某一項貨品的部分那對我們的產業是哪一些產業會受影響以及我們相對的因應的措施這個部分行政院都已經和我們相關部會"},{"start":265.902,"end":280.863,"text":"所以也就是說其實你們手邊我們都在做這個所以你手邊已經有一大項目要調低關稅或只是在營業稅的部分他認為是貿易障礙的部分你可能也會調降這個部分大家都還在都在這個什麼時候會有答案出來部長"},{"start":282.165,"end":309.772,"text":"當然第一個他要確認這個項目這個項目跟到稅率的時候那我們的對應的方式要出來對不對那另外經濟部也跟相關的產業在持續的交談不講因為我今天時間不多我不是要跟你吵架我沒有要吵架我只是要提醒你因為調降無論是關稅或營業稅對台灣的其他產業是勢必會有一定的衝擊不過你這些措施我都尊重但是也勢必要跟民間做最多的溝通謝謝一定會跟民間做溝通"},{"start":312.332,"end":334.515,"text":"謝謝部長我有第二個問題是屬於受僱醫師的權益的問題相關我們現在為了減緩包括基層醫療院所的職業環境之前衛福部就有提出希望我們現在醫生都非常的辛苦留住醫生在台灣所以財政部也宣布了113年度執行業務"},{"start":335.897,"end":344.464,"text":"的醫生的費用的標準我們調高了掛號費的收入跟費用率等等但是現在醫師的職業樣態其實非常多元有一種是叫開業的職業醫生他的所得叫做業務的所得"},{"start":351.15,"end":370.032,"text":"另外一塊就是受雇醫生譬如說是在我們教協醫院在我們聯合醫院他是拿的是薪水薪資所得那這樣子的做法就是我目前提高執行業務所得的費用對於其他受雇醫師而言就是很不公平"},{"start":370.712,"end":388.759,"text":"其實現在我們都希望無論是教學醫院或者是基層醫院或是聯合醫院我們當然希望是分級醫療無論是自己開診所的醫師也好每一種我們都有足夠的醫師讓我們的病人針對不同的需求而不是希望大家都出來開業"},{"start":390.56,"end":407.39,"text":"目前的做法會造成很多受僱醫生覺得說不公平我反而要繳的稅率多我領的薪水本來就沒有自己開業的醫生多那現在就自己開業的醫生好像我們調高他們的標準他們繳的稅率也比較低所以"},{"start":408.01,"end":430.288,"text":"很多人擔心但醫界有一種傳聞那倒不如自己出來開業或實質我跟朋友和我開業事實上我還是他受僱但是我繳的稅率就不用這麼多我講的例子當然不是很多但是有人有這樣子的心態所以我要提出來的問題是我們都很感謝台灣的醫師留在台灣不管你是受僱或是自己開業那我覺得就是說為了要"},{"start":433.611,"end":451.127,"text":"讓醫師有更好的付稅環境而不是只有照顧到受雇就是說自己開業的醫生的匯率所以如何調和我們現在受雇醫生的稅制是我今天提出來的重點就是說我們如何有更多的誘因留住醫師不管"},{"start":452.088,"end":475.928,"text":"你是自己出來開業或者是你即便是留在最基層的診所聯合醫院、教學醫院我們都希望有同等的環境我們在每一個區塊才都有不同的醫生大家都跑去開業真的需要開刀的時候我們找不到一般的醫師在教學醫院裡面人力不足這也就變成像現在有空床沒有護理員沒有醫師狀況是一樣的"},{"start":477.95,"end":494.09,"text":"所以我們現在我知道部長可能會回覆我說我們沒有辦法讀後某一個節我都知道你的標準答案但是當我們不做的時候我們的現況我們的職業環境就是越來越糟糕所以我希望部長"},{"start":495.231,"end":517.351,"text":"可不可以有更多的勇氣慢慢的我們真正面臨解決現在台灣產業它不叫產業它就是醫師我們現在缺醫師的問題所以我們可不可以有更多的勇氣去面對這些賦稅的制度拉到至少平等差不多平等這一塊我希望您可以在兩週之內提出報告可不可以"},{"start":518.733,"end":532.964,"text":"謝謝委員提出了某個面向的一些看法這個是大多數醫生群組裡面在討論不平的地方所以我提醒你提出一個報告是不是容許我們一個月好嗎好 謝謝一個月好"},{"start":534.725,"end":540.869,"text":"部長第三個問題就是網紅的公司的問題我想最近大家討論非常多只有59秒網紅的稅務的問題引起很多的討論他當然目前他的分潤方式比如說他是在國外開賬戶他有網路的平台感謝分潤還有點閱獎金付稅訂閱超級感謝粉絲的贊助等等"},{"start":562,"end":576.587,"text":"它到底屬於境外所得境內所得然後它的那個所得的還有分成很多不同的項目那像之前我們就有建議說新加坡有做出指引問答我們也有說過我們要做指引問答因為這個是屬於一個新型態的"},{"start":579.068,"end":596.422,"text":"新經營的方式所以我們到底是用什麼樣的分潤方式就是說它有一定的分潤方式但是指引我們一直沒有做出來所以我要就教於部長就是說我們這個指引到底什麼時候有更明確的答案出來也讓他們有所依循"},{"start":598.624,"end":600.386,"text":"因為現在課稅的標準是用個案認定不同的標準也就是裡面有一個一致性但是現在網紅公司越來越多我覺得我們的政府應該有責任跟義務去協助他們"},{"start":616.627,"end":636.975,"text":"就是哪些你即便你的帳戶是設在國外的帳戶但是你現在因為你是在國內有一個網路的平台所以它叫做國內所得但是它又有不同的薪資的認定標準所以我覺得我們的指引一定要盡速的出來讓他們不會報錯也不會被罰"},{"start":642.049,"end":667.89,"text":"謝謝委員的督促這個部分我們複稅署已經積極的努力而且已經有出稿我們在兩個月以內把它完成公告完成讓大家知道兩個月以內兩個月以內好 一個月到一個半月進速加快會進速加快謝謝委員謝謝李委員 謝謝莊部長謝謝宋署長也跟朱部長回報一下我剛跑去司法法治委員會人事長全力支持你們那五個方案"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1107,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（12時5分）請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝部長。我今天的問題分成三大塊，雖然有幾位委員已經關注過了，但我還是請你簡答，因為今天這些問題都是社會關注的重大議題。","第一個問題，川普重申4月2號開始要對所有貿易夥伴開始徵收對等關稅，這跟過去大家的猜測不太一樣，我們本來以為他會針對不同級距分類的幾個國家提出不同的關稅，但果然川普還是以自己國家、美國為優先，當然，對美國來說無可厚非，他就是每個國家一個一個談，這對美國是最有利的，但是從美國這邊計算出來的數字，我們對美的貿易順差達到七百多億，而我們的數字好像是六百多，有一些不一樣，當然這也無所謂，結論就是對於這次的關稅大戰，臺灣很難置身事外。整個行政團隊，包括賴總統都宣布，從4月2號開始，我們會組成半導體的民主供應鏈；還有卓院長的四大策略備戰，提到幾個重要的措施，以及要確保科技領先、爭取最有利條件等等，但我們看到無論是現在宣示性的，或者是未來要做的，都還沒有實現，都還在具體的進行當中，但重點是，關稅是馬上要面臨的問題，針對要保持我們科技的領先，這都是現在進行式、未來式，當然持續要做，可是對於川普跟我們的談判，這是馬上就要面臨的問題，川普也曾經說過，除了關稅之外，我們的營業稅稅率也是貿易障礙，在這一塊，我們到底有什麼具體的作法？是不是會調低其他特定產品的關稅或營業稅？譬如黃豆、小麥、玉米關稅的調降馬上就到了一個期限，我們是不是會持續維持？除了農產品的黃豆、小麥、玉米之外，未來應付或者面對美國的關稅議題，以及他們提出來的營業稅率是貿易障礙的說法，我們有沒有其他的措施要提出來？有沒有什麼其他的備案或答案？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，對於3月即將到期，也就是有相關的貨物稅、營業稅以及關稅，那是大宗物資相關進口的一些稅。"],["李委員彥秀：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：那個是基於穩定國內物價的工作。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道當時是這樣。"],["莊部長翠雲：目的是這樣，在3月底即將屆臨之前，下個禮拜行政院的穩定物價小組會再開會，這個部分會整個評估所有的情勢……"],["李委員彥秀：你的評估方向是什麼，還會繼續延期？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，第一個，國發會、農業部、經濟部都會提出相關市場上的一些數據……"],["李委員彥秀：我想也應該會評估到跟美國的貿易談判，這個一定是……"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分是物價的部分，先這樣，第二個就是在於川普所提出來的對等關稅，就是剛剛委員所提到、也很關切的這個部分，關於對等關稅，他當然提到4月1號、4月2號要做，可是問題是他所提出來對等關稅的概念是不是跟我們自己所想像一致……"],["李委員彥秀：那沒關係，不管他的概念是什麼，我們總是有幾套劇本。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，沒有錯，所以我們政府部門其實都已經持續在做這個工作，第一個，以財政部來說，我們會去盤點從美國進口的前排序進口值最大的是什麼樣的貨品。"],["李委員彥秀：比如什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：還有我們出口到美國的最大貨品的數量是什麼，然後相對關稅是多少，這個部分我們都有去做盤點。第二個，如果他在某一項貨品的部分調高關稅，對我們是哪一些產業會受影響，以及相對因應的措施，這個部分行政院都已經和我們相關部會在模擬相關方案……"],["李委員彥秀：所以也就是說，其實你們手邊……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們都在做這個事情。"],["李委員彥秀：所以你手邊已經有一大項目要調低關稅……"],["莊部長翠雲：不是調低。"],["李委員彥秀：或只是營業稅的部分，他認為是貿易障礙的部分，你可能也會調降？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，大家都還在……"],["李委員彥秀：什麼時候會有答案出來？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：答案？當然第一個，他要確認這個項目跟稅率的時候，我們對應的方式要出來，對不對？另外，經濟部也跟相關產業在持續交談，瞭解他們的問題……"],["李委員彥秀：不過部長，我今天時間不多，我不是要跟你吵架……"],["莊部長翠雲：我沒有要吵架……"],["李委員彥秀：對、對、對，我只是要提醒你，因為是調降，無論是關稅或營業稅，對臺灣其他產業勢必會有一定的衝擊，不過這些措施我都尊重，但是也勢必要跟民間做最多的溝通。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，好的，謝謝，一定會跟民間做溝通。"],["李委員彥秀：這是第一個議題，謝謝部長。","我有第二個問題是屬於受僱醫師權益的問題。我們現在為了減緩包括基層醫療院所的執業環境壓力，之前衛福部就有提出，希望留住醫生在臺灣，因為現在醫生都非常辛苦，所以財政部也宣布113年度執行業務醫生費用標準，我們調高了掛號費的收入跟費用率等等，但是現在醫師的執業樣態其實非常多元，有一種是開業的執業醫生，他的所得叫做業務所得，另外一種就是受僱醫生，譬如是在教學醫院、在聯合醫院，他拿的是薪水、薪資所得，這樣子的做法，我們目前提高執行業務所得的費用，對於其他受僱醫師而言就是很不公平。現在無論是教學醫院或者是基層醫院或是聯合醫院，我們當然希望是分級醫療，無論是自己開診所的醫師也好，每一種都有足夠的醫師讓我們的病人針對不同的需求而去，而不是希望大家都出來開業，目前的做法會造成很多受僱醫生覺得不公平，他反而要繳的稅率多，而領的薪水本來就沒有自己開業的醫生多，現在自己開業的醫生，我們調高他們的標準，他們繳的稅率也比較低，所以很多人擔心，但醫界也有一種傳聞，倒不如自己出來開業或實質跟朋友合夥開業，事實上我還是他的受僱，但是繳的稅率就不用這麼多，我講的例子當然不是很多，但是有人有這樣子的心態。","所以我要提出來的問題是，我們都很感謝臺灣的醫師留在臺灣，不管你是受僱或者自己開業，我覺得為了要讓醫師有更好的賦稅環境，而不是只有照顧到自己開業醫生的稅率，所以如何調和現在受僱醫生的稅制是我今天提出來的重點，我們如何有更多的誘因留住醫師？不管你是自己出來開業或者即便是留在最基層的診所、聯合醫院、教學醫院，我們都希望有同等的環境，在每一個區塊才都有不同的醫生，大家都跑去開業，真的需要開刀的時候，我們找不到一般的醫師，在教學醫院裡面人力不足，這也就變成像現在有空床卻沒有護理員、沒有醫師，狀況是一樣的。","所以我知道部長可能會回復我說我們沒有辦法獨厚某一個職業，我都知道你的標準答案，但是當我們不做的時候，我們的現況、我們的執業環境就是越來越糟糕，所以我希望部長可不可以有更多的勇氣？慢慢的、我們真正要面臨、要解決現在臺灣的產業……他不叫產業，他就是醫師，就是我們現在缺醫師的問題，所以我們可不可以有更多的勇氣去面對這些賦稅的制度，拉到至少差不多平等？這部分我希望您可以在兩週之內提出報告，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，委員提出了某個面向的一些看法，委員這邊……"],["李委員彥秀：這個是大多數醫生群組裡面在討論不公平的地方，所以我提醒你，請提出一個報告。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，好的，是不是容許我們一個月好嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝，一個月。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["李委員彥秀：好，部長，我第三個問題就是網紅公司的問題，最近大家討論非常多。網紅稅務的問題引起很多的討論，當然目前他的分潤方式，比如他是在國外開帳戶，他有網路平臺感謝分潤，還有點閱獎金、付費訂閱、超級感謝粉絲贊助等等，這到底屬於境外所得、境內所得？這些所得還有分成很多不同的項目，像之前我們就有建議像新加坡有做出指引問答，我們也有說過我們要做指引問答，因為這是屬於一個新型態的經營方式，所以我們到底是用什麼樣的分潤方式？他有一定的分潤方式，但是我們一直沒有做出指引，所以我要就教於部長，有關這個指引，到底什麼時候有更明確的答案出來，也讓他們有所依循？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的關心……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，因為現在課稅的標準是用個案認定不同的標準，也就是沒有一致性，但是現在網紅公司越來越多，我們的政府應該有責任跟義務去協助他們，即便你的帳戶是設在國外，但是現在你是在國內有一個網路平臺，所以它叫做國內所得，但是這又有不同的薪資認定標準，所以我們的指引一定要儘速出來，讓他們不會報錯、也不會被罰。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員的督促，這個部分我們賦稅署正在積極努力，而且已經有初稿，我們在兩個月以內把它完成公告，讓大家知道。"],["李委員彥秀：要兩個月喔？"],["莊部長翠雲：兩個月以內。"],["李委員彥秀：好，儘速一個月到一個半月、儘速加快。"],["莊部長翠雲：會儘速加快，謝謝委員。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱代）：謝謝李委員、謝謝莊部長、謝謝宋署長。也跟莊部長回報一下，我剛剛跑去司法及法制委員會，人事長全力支持你們那五個方案屬於他的那兩個部分。","好，接下來我們有請鄭委員天財質詢、鄭委員天財、鄭委員天財不在。","有請鄭委員正鈐、鄭委員正鈐、鄭委員正鈐不在。","有請王委員鴻薇、王委員鴻薇、王委員鴻薇不在。","有請黃委員國昌、黃委員國昌、黃委員國昌不在。","有請王委員世堅質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159469","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159469","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0eb6061b2fbd3e30056c3f89dc79e7a256c2779210393a1513fb8e3d700d2a5af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:03:31 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請郭部長一律所屬的"},{"start":24.145,"end":51.703,"text":"剛好上來 都正好 董事長好部長好 署長好 董事長好來 標題很清楚離島供電虧損 遷移依法撥補合作開發綠電實現電網互通來 我們請到這個新聞大概在3月9號的時候台電持續虧損 擬漲電價 追討離島補貼部長 這個消息你知道嗎知道 3月9號 知道那台電說 它有三個劇本我們還是希望說 這個小店家住宅的小用戶盡量不要漲或不要漲那麼多"},{"start":52.443,"end":78.087,"text":"但是台電說那如果這樣的話我不行啊我要去追討這個離島補貼來看一下部長知道離島發電的虧損過去有補貼嗎有沒有撥補離島簽署條例是4條嘛用水用電平均費率收取嘛然後呢主管機關中央目的世界主管機關審查後要編列預算撥補資請問部長提供離島平價水電是依法的"},{"start":79.632,"end":89.162,"text":"義務對不對那因此要撥補業者的虧損這是不是政府的法定義務要用法定的支出是的是的好所以經濟部會怎麼做"},{"start":90.952,"end":117.742,"text":"經濟部我想謝謝委員的這個提醒經濟部當然就是通通是依法行事經濟部一向的作為就是依法行事不只依法行事還要尊重民意機關來105年行政院曾經說不要編列預算指引喔給經濟部喔可是後來呢在去年經濟委員會審查說做成決議喔要請離島基金研議撥補台電的可行性研議的結果你們有研議嗎"},{"start":118.982,"end":143.987,"text":"離島基金來撥補台電可信息你們有言議嗎這個部分我是不是請這個台電董事長跟您報告其實也不是台電啦離島基金是誰在管離島基金國發會在管嘛那國發會有來嗎國發沒有來我問過國發會了啦他們基本上的尊重行政院的決定啦往下看所以請問部長那如果是用本院的決定是用離島基金來撥補的話哪個機關要負責編列預算"},{"start":148.039,"end":153.323,"text":"經濟部經濟部編預算給離島基金那離島基金再來撥補是這樣意思嗎來 曾董事長講一下報告委員"},{"start":159.381,"end":167.786,"text":"會有這一個討論其實關鍵就是行政院直接編在經濟部補貼台電的預算兩筆都沒有通過所以才會去討論法定的部分離島的建設條例這一條確實是法有名定是那邊在誰那裡那個編列的是14條的規定是由目的世界主管機關來編"},{"start":183.894,"end":202.615,"text":"好就是來審查那個是這個目的事業主管機關水電的目的事業主管機關是經濟部對但是整個基金放是在國發會這一個條例的召集是行政院所以它其實是一個很特別的法令很好它的主管機關在行政院不在各個部會這是一個非常特別的事我們請郭部長 部長"},{"start":203.536,"end":232.524,"text":"這樣你的領域很重要喔你在行政部門不能客氣喔國發委我都幫你跟主委都問過了喔雖然總之原來他坐在你旁邊謝謝委員我都問過了好 往下看來 現在來聽一個問題好不同的環境資源條件適合發展不同的能源政策像澳洲有廣大的沙漠現在的光電它可以來發展對不對像是加拿大有豐沛的河川它就可以發展水力發電有些國家有石油有煤有天然氣它可以發展火力發電是不是這樣子"},{"start":233.759,"end":256.429,"text":"那請問台灣這些地方你都有嗎?台灣有廣闊的沙漠嗎?有豐沛的水電嗎?像在加拿大,還是我們底下有蘊藏石油煤跟天然氣?報告委員,我們現在還是在國內找尋不需要進口的這些能源,包括小水利,包括我們的地熱,這個都是我們在對,包括低熱,低熱潛力很大,但是基本上台灣"},{"start":256.989,"end":283.369,"text":"目前現有的我們的地理條件我們還是要需要進口能源或進口電嘛是 因為我們所做的這個再生能源呢因為我們的土地不夠多 是那我們的海岸也不夠長 是所以我想只能夠這個做進口的能源的所以進口能源而且進口能源很大部分用來發電是不是這樣子是的那也可以進口電 好 我們看一下來 哪些國家加拿大的電力呢"},{"start":284.298,"end":307.458,"text":"美國從加拿大進口水電,是不是?是德國從俄羅斯拿天然氣來發電,也從法國進口電力所以一個國家的電力網,它可以尋求進口能源,也可以直接進口電力,是嗎?是的那台灣目前有進口電力嗎?台灣目前沒有進口電力沒有進口電力嗎?好,我們來看一下,所以電網如果互通的話,也可以進口電力嘛"},{"start":307.958,"end":331.381,"text":"譬如說最近大家討論的剛剛報告洪源提到菲律賓的重電您提說新聞報導說每度是5.5還可以實地考察來我們來看一下目前從菲律賓如果要進口電有三種四種方法啦三種方法第一HVDC高壓直流輸電可以長目前已有的可以重1600公里比交流電還要節省損耗技術上是可行"},{"start":334.023,"end":352.317,"text":"是的但是可能台灣跟菲律賓有很深的海溝超過3000公尺以上這個還要評估好另外有人說那用電磁團運輸對不對儲能設置放在船上把電運了進去有沒有可能性也有嘛有好另外一種呢就是轉換為氫能把菲律賓的電先轉成氫能再用"},{"start":353.346,"end":376.721,"text":"安 淡 用它來轉化 讓LNG運送到其他國家 是不是這樣好 但是最後一種呢就是可能我看到最近有人在提到的 今天的新聞台中院在講就是境外關內的產業園區啊也就是說境外發展的電 不是輸到台灣來我們把台灣的部分產業 乾燥我們的產業分工放一部分到那個地方去 直接用那個地方來綠電經濟部有評估這個可能性嗎"},{"start":378.053,"end":397.446,"text":"這個就是我境外觀內的非常重要的一環所以我們剛剛在談到菲律賓的供電其實我去考察過菲律賓的大馬尼拉電力公司其實菲律賓的工業用電比台灣還高住宅用電更是讓那邊的台商嚇得要死為什麼有沒有經濟部去理解一下菲律賓的電力系統"},{"start":399.185,"end":425.496,"text":"報告委員我們一開始就沒有考慮使用菲律賓現有的電力設施跟現有的電力的這個做法我們是在一個在跟菲律賓政府希望能夠談到一個具有經濟這個價值的一塊比較大的一個土地然後我們在那裡把台灣的業者送到那個地方去因為透過有這個經濟的這個"},{"start":428.198,"end":440.193,"text":"這個作用讓它的成本更降低然後它這個電可以賣給我們將來境外官內的工業區的這些業者使用剩下的送回來台灣"},{"start":441.187,"end":459.156,"text":"來跟部長說明一下因為在場有些人不是不一定會像董事長那麼了解電力這叫做職工啦發電業者他不直接把電他不把電賣給大電力網在大電網分配到用戶去他直接賣給什麼耗能虛能的用戶簡言之今天在菲律賓之前有光電業者去設廠"},{"start":460.416,"end":482.143,"text":"結果後來很吃虧 為什麼因為大馬尼拉這個菲律賓的電力公司的輸配線路的管理效能不如台電所以收很高的管線費算一算呢 如果要賣給他價格會變得很低 不划算不賣給他 都賣停工去啊所以其實之前呢 我去考察過菲律賓台灣過去的光業者在那邊如果都考慮到 聽說我的店要賣給"},{"start":483.479,"end":507.381,"text":"菲律賓的電力公司他不要但是如果我們台商去設廠需要綠能的產業去設廠 像半導體他需要綠電他直接賣給台灣的廠商 他很願意部長有往這個方向去考量嗎是的 我們一開始就是往這個方向直接供應好 最後的結論請協同主計總署研議籌措國發基金依法撥補台電離島的供電虧損 可以嗎"},{"start":510.083,"end":532.079,"text":"我會幫你去找主席總書 因為他在財政委員會是 這是離島建設基金對 這是離島建設基金啊是喔 對不起不是瓜哥基金說錯了 是離島建設基金打錯了齁那另外呢 整合能源供應和產業需求評估在鄰近國家地區 比如說像菲律賓設置台灣產業園區的可行性 可以嗎是的好 那麼進入給本席一個書面的一個報告 好嗎好 謝謝部長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":911,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時3分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請經濟部郭部長、能源署李代理署長以及台電公司曾董事長。"],["主席：請郭部長與所屬。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、署長好、董事長好。標題很清楚，「離島供電虧損千億依法撥補，合作開發綠電實現電網互通」。我們談到這個新聞，大概在3月9日的時候，台電持續虧損擬漲電價、追討離島補貼。部長，這個消息你知道嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：台電說它有三個劇本，我們還是希望小店家、住宅、小用戶儘量不要漲或者不要漲那麼多，但是台電說：如果這樣的話，我不行，我要去追討離島補貼。部長知道離島發電的虧損過去有補貼嗎？有沒有撥補？離島建設條例第十四條規定，用水、用電比照本島平均費率收取，然後中央目的事業主管機關審核後，要編列預算撥補之。請問部長，提供離島平價水電是依法的義務，對不對？因此要撥補業者的虧損，這是不是政府的法定義務，要用法定的支出？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以經濟部會怎麼做？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的提醒，經濟部當然統統是依法行事，經濟部一向的作為就是依法行事。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，不只依法行事，還要尊重民意機關。","105年行政院曾經發函給經濟部說，不要編列預算支應，可是後來去年經濟委員會審查的時候作成決議，要請離島基金研議撥補台電的可行性。研議的結果是什麼？你們有研議嗎？離島基金來撥補台電的可行性，你們有研議嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我是不是請台電董事長跟您報告？"],["鍾委員佳濱：其實也不是台電，離島基金是誰在管？國發會在管嘛！國發會有來嗎？國發會沒有來，我問過國發會了，他們基本上尊重行政院的決定。","所以請問部長，如果本院的決定是用離島基金來撥補的話，哪個機關要負責編列預算？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部。"],["鍾委員佳濱：經濟部編預算給離島基金，離島基金再來撥補，是這樣的意思嗎？來，曾董事長講一下。"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，會有這個討論，其實關鍵就是行政院直接編在經濟部補貼台電的預算兩筆都沒有通過……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啊，立法院刪掉啦！"],["曾董事長文生：所以才會去討論法定的部分，離島建設條例這一條確實是法有明定……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，但是要編在誰那裡？"],["曾董事長文生：那個編列的部分，第十四條的規定是由目的事業主管機關審核，而水電的目的事業主管機關是經濟部。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，然後編列預算呢？"],["曾董事長文生：但是整個基金放是在國發會，這一個條例的召集是行政院，所以它其實是一個很特別的法令，就是它的主管機關在行政院，不在各個部會，這是一個非常特別的事。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，我們請郭部長。部長，這樣你的任務很重要喔！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你在行政院不能客氣喔！我幫你跟國發會主委都問過了，雖然總質詢時他是坐在你旁邊，我都問過了。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在來提個問題，不同的環境資源條件適合發展不同的能源政策，像澳洲有廣大的沙漠，它可以來發展光電；加拿大有豐沛的河川，它就可以發展水力發電；有些國家有石油、有煤、有天然氣，它可以發展火力發電，部長，是不是這樣子？請問臺灣這些地方都有嗎？臺灣有廣闊的沙漠嗎？有像加拿大有豐沛的水電嗎？還是我們底下有蘊藏石油、煤跟天然氣？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在還是在國內找尋不需要進口的能源，包括小水力，包括地熱，這個都是我們在……"],["鍾委員佳濱：自主性的，包括地熱，地熱潛力很大，但是基本上臺灣以現有的地理條件，我們還是要需要進口能源或進口電嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：是，因為我們所做的再生能源，畢竟我們的土地不夠多，我們的海岸也不夠長，所以我想只能夠做進口能源的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：而且進口能源很大部分是用來發電，是不是這樣子？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也可以進口電力。我們看一下哪些國家有進口電力，加拿大生產電力，美國從加拿大進口電，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：德國從俄羅斯拿天然氣來發電，也從法國進口電力。所以一個國家的電力網，它可以尋求進口能源，也可以直接進口電力，是嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：臺灣目前有進口電力嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：臺灣目前沒有進口電力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有進口電力嘛！我們來看一下，所以電網如果互通的話，也可以進口電力嘛！譬如說，最近大家討論的，包括剛剛洪委員提到的菲律賓的種電，新聞報導說您提到每度是5.5元，還可以實地考察。我們來看一下，目前如果從菲律賓進口電，有三種方法：第一，HVDC（高壓直流輸電），目前已有的可以送1,600公里，比交流電還要節省損耗，技術上是不是可行？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是可能臺灣跟菲律賓有很深的海溝，超過3,000公尺以上，這個還要評估。另外有人說用電池船運輸，儲能設施放在船上，把電運來運去，有沒有可能性？也有嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。另外一種就是轉換為氫能，把菲律賓的電先轉成氫能，再用氨、氮來轉化，讓LNG運送到其他國家，是不是這樣？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後一種就是，可能我看到最近有人提到，今天新聞中台綜院也在講，就是境外關內的產業園區，也就是說，境外發展的電不是輸到臺灣來，而是我們把臺灣的部分產業，按照我們的產業分工，放一部分到那個地方去，直接用那個地方的綠電。經濟部有評估過這個可能性嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個就是境外關內非常重要的一環。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。最後，我們剛剛談到菲律賓的供電，我去考察過菲律賓的大馬尼拉電力公司，菲律賓的工業用電比臺灣還高，住宅用電更是讓那邊的臺商嚇得要死，經濟部有沒有去理解一下菲律賓的電力系統？"],["郭部長智輝：我們一開始就沒有考慮使用菲律賓現有電力設施跟現有電力這個作法，我們希望跟菲律賓政府能夠談到一塊具有比較大經濟價值的土地，然後我們把臺灣的業者送到那個地方，因為透過……"],["鍾委員佳濱：把產業送到那裡去？"],["郭部長智輝：有經濟的作用讓它的成本更降低，然後它的電將來可以賣給我們境外關內工業區的這些業者使用，剩下的送回來臺灣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：跟部長說明一下，因為在場有些人不見得像董事長那麼了解電力，這叫做直供。發電業者不直接把電賣給大電力網，再由大電網分配到用戶，而是直接賣給耗能、需能的用戶。簡言之，之前在菲律賓有光電業者去設廠，結果後來很吃虧，為什麼？因為菲律賓的大馬尼拉電力公司的輸配線路管理效能不如台電，所以收很高的管線費，算一算如果要賣給它，價格會變得很低、不划算；不賣給它就都浪費掉了。之前我去考察菲律賓，過去臺灣的光電業者在那邊，如果聽到電要賣給菲律賓的電力公司，他們就不要；如果臺商去設廠、需要綠能的產業去設廠，像半導體需要綠電，它直接賣給臺灣的廠商，它很願意！部長有往這個方向去考量嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我們一開始就是往這個方向在考量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這就是直供、直接供應。最後結論，請協同主計總處研議籌措國發基金，依法撥補台電離島的供電虧損，可以嗎？我會幫你去找主計總處，因為它在財政委員會。"],["郭部長智輝：這是離島建設基金。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，這是離島建設基金。對不起！不是國發基金，說錯了，是離島建設基金。另外整合能源供應和產業需求，評估在鄰近國家、地區，比如菲律賓，設置臺灣產業園區的可行性，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那麼儘速給本席一個書面報告，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：好，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","現在請郭國文委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","郭國文","陳昭姿","林月琴","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","徐富癸","羅智強","陳超明","林德福","牛煦庭","蔡易餘"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00004"}}},{"id":"159468","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159468","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb06b4e32a494b1855a01b4bb3d6676f3fd6c2779210393a15176aa520af6b9da4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:00:21 - 12:10:38","影片長度":"00:10:17","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T12:00:21+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T12:10:38+08:00","duration":617,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.3678437500000005,"end":6.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.337843750000001,"end":9.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.640968750000003,"end":11.809718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.130343750000002,"end":13.007843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.007843750000003,"end":66.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.04596875,"end":66.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.36659375,"end":66.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.48471875,"end":95.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.77534375,"end":70.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.37846875000001,"end":71.83409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.25159375,"end":73.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.77846875,"end":77.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.82409375,"end":82.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.61284375000001,"end":84.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.33346875000001,"end":89.53596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.28659375000001,"end":94.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.89784375,"end":96.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.20159375,"end":110.79846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.81534375000001,"end":126.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.16909375,"end":115.43909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.41346875,"end":117.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.26471875000001,"end":124.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.66096875000001,"end":215.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.79471875000002,"end":288.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.90409375000002,"end":218.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.78159375,"end":219.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.01284375000003,"end":251.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.07534375,"end":283.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.96909375,"end":293.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.82534375,"end":290.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.48721875,"end":303.91596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.74784375,"end":300.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.25346875,"end":347.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.43909375000004,"end":304.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.77971875000003,"end":312.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.86284375,"end":320.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.77346875,"end":324.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.12221875,"end":334.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.46346875,"end":337.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.76721875000004,"end":337.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.91471875,"end":339.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.96909375,"end":342.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.77909375,"end":343.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.60096875000005,"end":350.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.07346875,"end":355.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.74784375,"end":354.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.77284375000005,"end":368.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.74284375,"end":359.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.41346875000005,"end":360.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.52221875000004,"end":372.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.95159375000003,"end":396.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.12784375,"end":379.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.91221875,"end":382.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.31721875000005,"end":382.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.13534375,"end":385.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.43471875,"end":386.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.33721875000003,"end":389.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.28159375,"end":394.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.24346875000003,"end":417.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.51596875,"end":407.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.73909375000005,"end":409.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.09659375,"end":438.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.00346875,"end":419.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.32784375,"en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謝謝昭偉 有請次長有請次長 貝子荀謝謝委員好好 次長午安喔那個在我問學校公參法前喔我先針對那個早上有委員提到的科博館的事情喔那我知道張亮萬堅委員 次長出自台中那科博館也都說您一直大力支持喔"},{"start":29.907,"end":31.348,"text":"這個陳情案我也有收到賴總統上任前一直非常支持科博館2024年底科博館也向教育部提出科博館升級計畫"},{"start":50.062,"end":65.815,"text":"我想柯博館的重要性張廖次長非常的了解因為他是我們全國標本數最大的那每年參觀人數也三百萬人次非常的重要那這個計畫不會因為人事的變動而受到影響吧這次次長可以承諾嗎"},{"start":66.536,"end":95.561,"text":"我跟那個離子的教官也非常熟我很肯定他很勇於認識剛才因為沒有時間回答那至於這個人事案件坦白講這也不是我的權責能夠回答就是說有發生這樣的狀況我們當然本於事權或者是這個計劃這個戒掉的期限當然是從這樣角度關心我們可以理解不過我想對於這些計劃我覺得科博館確實需要投入一些資源來改善"},{"start":96.281,"end":118.579,"text":"那我想他至少就要一步承諾這些升級的計畫不會受影響第二個我也希望次長在這邊可以承諾說能夠多化強化跟裡面的專業研究人員的溝通減少衝擊這應該可以做到吧對我想我會跟部長建議就是說應該去了解一下到館裡面去了解整個發展是不是有"},{"start":119.119,"end":134.386,"text":"外面就是外傳的這樣的狀況來跟地方好好溝通那如果部長真的工忙我也可以過去沒關係好 那我想如果張廖次長出動的話那大家應該是更有信心了因為您本來就了解這個台中的科博館的重要性"},{"start":135.006,"end":152.195,"text":"那再回到今天的這個主題那因為我想那個剛剛其實次長都有回應過那我也想再重申我們這一屆有很多我們教文委員跟非教文委我們組的下一代而佔連線就把營養午餐專法列為重要的法案"},{"start":153.055,"end":169.401,"text":"那也不只是這一屆那張廖次長跟我們在一起的時候上一屆我們都非常的關心我個人也跟民團多次召開記者會呼籲教育部盡速制定學校公參法那也跟我們教育部長上一屆潘部長質詢過"},{"start":171.242,"end":196.985,"text":"當時就說有草案基礎會加速的推那教育部也回應我就是認同而且會訂出前瞻而且創新的學校午餐專法那這部分我想其實我們都知道為什麼要訂這個部分那我也知道剛剛張廖次長有講到其實你們現在已經做了非常多我們專法中在講的事情那包含就是已經有70幾億"},{"start":198.226,"end":208.973,"text":"每年都提升包含契約各方面但是有一點就是營養師的部分還是沒有辦法做到因為營養師現狀是每班30人一個營養師要負擔1200人我們知道其實就日本來講"},{"start":215.877,"end":236.124,"text":"就只要550個人就有那這是日本的狀態所以我們跟日本比起來還是差距很大那日本是在1954年韓國在1981年就有相關的專法了那當然就是我自己的版本還特別重視多元飲食文化跟飲食教育"},{"start":236.804,"end":241.57,"text":"還有這個剩食的部分因為我覺得就是國中小生他們其實怎麼樣有實時的教育剩食減量那這也是我原本的那個相關的法中有提到的"},{"start":251.561,"end":279.902,"text":"也因為這些原因我覺得很重要要有這個專法可是我剛聽了半天我也知道行政院的卡關是卡關在哪裡因為我想本來潘部長或者張料次長你一定會非常支持把它法治化雖然現在有非常多的部分就是教育部已經做到了那這個部分您可不可以再講一下就是因為剛剛有委員講說才化法的部分可以協商那到底地方政府"},{"start":280.262,"end":303.48,"text":"那您剛剛有講到說會議紀錄會給委員嘛那是哪些地方政府願意來分擔這個錢沒有這個部分還沒有談因為台灣法對台灣法過之後因為有行政院的那個那個程序還沒有通就是救濟程序復義都還沒過那我們當然這個部分去跟地方談也不知道怎麼談啊那因為地方他也不確定他拿多少錢"},{"start":304.521,"end":324.478,"text":"我提過就是說每個地方對於目前這個新版裁判法的一個版本的貨配數是不是滿意那我們要如何做一刀切說怎麼樣的縣市幾層幾層幾層這樣他們同不同意這其實是一個溝通的難度啦那我們願意溝通啦那就是說如果已經確定是這樣子的新版"},{"start":325.599,"end":347.02,"text":"財務法是明年上路的話那今年我們是不會去動那今年修法如果增加了預算那要增加的我們講過至少會二十六億多包括要符合營養師你提到的那個五百五十人的標準的話我們就朝這個目標來努力的話要增加的兩億七千萬那這部分我們可以先談就是說跟地方談是不是"},{"start":348.683,"end":370.622,"text":"他們願意來多付一點以我個人看 因為其實教育本來就是地方事務那我們教育部過去做了非常多簡單的講就是裁判法他把錢拿回去就是權利義務要對等我們不是說把國民教育就甩鍋給地方而是說你拿了錢回去 那折就要扛回去這樣子會比較好那如果地方就是拒絕呢他又要錢又不想負擔責任那我們怎麼辦"},{"start":373.445,"end":395.608,"text":"對 這個就是說這個就是會變成不穩定的一個教育預算跟教育政策其實這是我們不樂見的對 就是財發法的修法這樣匆忙過之後造成的教育預算 國教補助這些的不穩定性我常常覺得說其實穩定的教育預算是國家的福氣是孩子的福氣"},{"start":395.828,"end":416.484,"text":"那我也想借這個機會請教次長喔因為這個才化法要撥到地方的三千多億裡面有哪些教育部受到影響的會大概多少億因為原本各部會 這一定是各部會均攤嘛那教育部會攤多少 會減少多少會不會影響到地方的原本的什麼老舊房舍補助啊等等這些"},{"start":417.125,"end":436.753,"text":"我們私下估算嘛就是說如果有些預算像國防預算等等那一定不能剪的話那我們也不是只有28%那其實教育算也有很多譬如說少子化補助我們分攤了688億那這部分到底是要跟地方合作也是一樣請他們負擔一點還是我們要跟著剪"},{"start":437.273,"end":454.402,"text":"那跟著減的話 小子化就指向公托跟非營利的補助第一胎五千、六千、七千還有公托的補助就是他們去念幼兒園就一千、兩千、三千負擔減低那這一部分教育部也分成六百八十八億那這部分也不能減那所以有些"},{"start":455.382,"end":472.525,"text":"你要撿的業務費用就是說剛才大家討論很多說就會去撿到一些各單位的業務費用那事實上目前我們正在各單位也在想籌編明年預算的時候其實也在想說我們有些可能必須要三個三成或多少如果"},{"start":473.346,"end":498.094,"text":"方案一三層的話那我們要掃哪些 兼哪些那地方要怎麼去談所以這是一個很困難的工作那我現在也憂心的是就是地方拿了這個財化法搶到這個錢又不負擔義務然後萬一你們跟地方協商的話地方政府又要推給你說那這個你學校午餐條例還是要中央出錢那這就非常的不合理"},{"start":499.094,"end":512.029,"text":"剛剛我們很多藍營 待會葉元智委員我們應該問他嘛新北市學校午餐條例新北市要負擔百分之多少次長你覺得地方政府應該要負擔多少才合理主席說我們是不能去問我想是這樣說"},{"start":513.871,"end":530.634,"text":"我就想這個國教補助 補助孩子這絕對是教育部甜蜜的負擔我們都願意多出但問題是說如果沒有能力出的時候地方中央一起來談一起來出能夠談出一個名簿我們好好修修得更好負擔更多我覺得那就是甜蜜的負擔我們都願意承擔"},{"start":531.175,"end":547.678,"text":"我相信就是說因為我們這邊委員都在中央大家會希望中央多買單一點那但是就剛講的財化法中央錢就不夠了如果少子化的錢都要地方的話我也會擔心萬一地方不做因為沒有任何的法律的基礎就是地方要負擔嘛"},{"start":548.379,"end":572.147,"text":"那這個事情應該大家一起來解決那當然我個人還是希望說行政院能夠務實算出之後有一個可執行的版本那是不是我們就是不分黨派包含議員之委員都一起來遊說地方願意承諾分擔多少我想這樣才會有個合理的溝通專法的精神我們都很支持就專法的精神都是要孩子吃的好吃的安全吃的營養"},{"start":573.107,"end":587.564,"text":"那吃的這個能夠均衡所以我覺得這個我們都支持只是說像營養師增加我們現在版本設算的經費也都出來如果我們如果我們不去面對的話我們就不會去設算這個經費就是說我們也希望能夠達到這個目標"},{"start":589.246,"end":611.012,"text":"那我希望這個溝通速度越快越好那也跟剛剛委員一樣那個溝通的紀錄是不是也都可以給本委員會因為財務法確定之後行政會有指示說我們大概會減少多少的時候如果開過會我們比較確定的也許他覺得這份不能減那跟地方政府的溝通紀錄也給本席一份好嗎好 謝謝謝謝次長 一起加油謝謝范雲委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":766,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時）謝謝召委，有請次長。"],["主席：有請次長備詢，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["范委員雲：次長午安。在我問學校供餐法前，我先針對早上有委員提到科博館的事情，我知道張廖萬堅次長出自臺中，科博館也都說您一直大力支持。因為這個陳情案其實我也有收到，我知道賴總統上任前其實就一直非常支持科博館，2024年底科博館也向教育部提出科博館升級的計畫，這是自漢寶德1993年籌劃以來最重要的計畫。我想科博館的重要性張廖次長非常瞭解，因為它是我們全國標本數最大的館，每年參觀人數也有300萬人次，非常地重要，這個計畫不會因為人事的變動而受到影響吧？次長可以承諾嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我跟離職的焦館長非常熟，也很肯定他很勇於任事。"],["范委員雲：對。"],["張廖次長萬堅：剛才因為沒有時間回答，至於這個人事案件，坦白講這也不是我的權責能夠回答的。就是說，有發生這樣的狀況，我們當然本於事權或者是計畫，這個借調的期限當然是……從這樣的角度我們可以理解，不過我想，對於這些計畫，我覺得科博館確實……"],["范委員雲：計畫不會受到影響。"],["張廖次長萬堅：確實需要投入一些資源來改善。"],["范委員雲：我想至少教育部承諾這些升級的計畫不會受影響。第二個，我也希望次長在這邊可以承諾能夠多化、強化跟裡面的專業研究人員溝通，減少衝擊，這應該可以做到吧？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我想我會跟部長建議，就是說應該去瞭解一下，到館裡面去瞭解整個發展是不是有外傳這樣的狀況，來跟地方好好溝通。"],["范委員雲：對。"],["張廖次長萬堅：如果部長真的公務繁忙我也可以過去，沒有關係。"],["范委員雲：好，我想如果張廖次長出動的話，大家應該是更有信心了，因為你本來就瞭解臺中科博館的重要性。","再回到今天的這個主題，因為我想剛剛次長其實都有回應過，我也想再重申，這一屆有很多教文委員跟非教文委員，我們組了「為下一代而戰連線」，就把營養午餐專法列為重要的法案。也不只是這一屆，張廖次長跟我們在一起時的上一屆，我們都非常關心，我個人也跟民團多次召開記者會，呼籲教育部儘速制定學校供餐法，也跟教育部上一屆的潘部長質詢過，當時就說有草案基礎，會加速地推，教育部也回應我，認同而且會訂出前瞻且創新的學校午餐專法。","其實我們都知道為什麼要訂這個部分，我也知道剛剛張廖次長有講到，你們現在已經做了非常專法中在講的事情，已經有七十幾億每年都提升包含契約各方面，但是有一點，營養師的部分還是沒有辦法做到嗎？因為營養師的現狀是，每班30人，一個營養師要負擔1,200人，據我們知道，其實就日本來講，只要550個人就有，這是日本的狀態，所以我們跟日本比起來還是差距很大。日本是在1954年，韓國是在1981年就有相關的專法了，當然我自己的版本還特別重視多元飲食文化跟飲食教育，還有這個剩食的部分。因為我覺得，國中小生他們其實需要惜食的教育，讓剩食減量，這也是我原本相關的法中有提到的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["范委員雲：所以也因為這些原因，我覺得很重要，要有這個專法，可是我剛剛聽了半天，我也知道行政院的卡關是卡關在哪裡，因為我想本來潘部長或者張廖次長一定會非常支持把它法制化，雖然現在有非常多的部分是教育部已經做到的，這個部分您可不可以再講一下？剛剛也有委員講說財劃法的部分可以協商，到底地方政府……您剛剛有講到會議紀錄會給委員嘛？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["范委員雲：是哪些地方政府願意來分擔這個錢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個部分還沒有談，因為……"],["范委員雲：還沒談。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，財劃法通過之後，因為有行政院的救濟程序、覆議都還沒過，我們就這個部分去跟地方談也不知道怎麼談，因為地方也不確定它拿了多少錢。我提過，每個地方對於新版財劃法版本的獲配數是不是滿意？我們要如何做一刀切，說什麼樣的縣市幾成、幾成，這樣他們同不同意？這其實有溝通的難度。我們願意溝通，如果已經確定是這樣子，新版的財劃法是明年上路的話，今年我們不會去動。今年修法如果增加了預算，我們講過至少會二十六億多元，包括你提到要符合營養師550人的標準，我們就朝這個目標來努力的話，要增加2億7,000萬，這部分我們可以先跟地方談是不是他們願意多付一點。"],["范委員雲：以我個人看，其實教育本來就是地方事務。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["范委員雲：教育部過去做了非常多的補助……"],["張廖次長萬堅：簡單地講，就是依財劃法，它把錢拿回去，權利、義務也要對等，我們不是把國民教育就甩鍋給地方，而是說拿了錢回去，責就要扛回去，這樣子會比較好。"],["范委員雲：對。如果地方就是拒絕呢？它又要錢，又不想負擔責任，我們怎麼辦？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個就會變成不穩定的教育預算跟教育政策，其實這是我們不樂見的。財劃法的修法這樣匆忙通過之後，造成了教育預算、國教補助這些的不穩定性，我常常覺得穩定的教育預算是國家的福氣、是孩子的福氣。"],["范委員雲：對。我也想藉這個機會請教次長，這次財劃法要撥到地方的三千多億裡面，教育部受到的影響大概會有多少億？這一定是各部會均攤嘛。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["范委員雲：教育部會攤多少？會減少多少？會不會影響到地方原本譬如老舊房舍補助等等這些？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們私下估算，如果有些預算像國防預算等等一定不能刪凍的話……"],["范委員雲：國防預算、國安當然不能減。"],["張廖次長萬堅：不能減的話，我們也不是只有28%。其實教育預算也有很多譬如少子化補助，我們分攤了688億，這部分到底是要跟地方合作，一樣請它負擔一點，還是我們要跟著減？跟著減的話……"],["范委員雲：少子化就是指像公托跟非營利的補助？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，第一胎5,000、第二胎6,000、第三胎7,000，還有公托的補助，就是他們去上幼兒園，補助1,000、2,000、3,000，負擔減低，這部分教育部也分攤了688億，這部分也不能減。所以要減的業務費用，剛才大家討論很多，就是會減到一些各單位的業務費用，事實上目前各單位正在籌編明年預算的時候，也在想我們有些可能必須要刪個三成或多少，如果方案一是刪三成的話，我們要少哪些、減哪些？地方要怎麼去談？所以這是一個很困難的工作。"],["范委員雲：我現在也憂心的是地方拿了、搶到財劃法的錢，又不負擔義務，然後萬一你們跟地方協商的時候，地方政府又要推給你，學校午餐條例還是要中央出錢，這就非常地不合理。待會葉元之委員要質詢，我們應該問他，根據新北市學校午餐條例，新北市要負擔百分之多少？次長，您覺得地方政府應該要負擔多少才合理？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們是被問，主席說我們不能詢問。我想是這樣，這個國教補助、補助孩子……"],["范委員雲：是八比二，地方八、中央二嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個絕對是教育部甜蜜的負擔，我們都願意多出，但問題是如果沒有能力出的時候，地方、中央一起來談、一起來出，能夠談出個名目，我們好好修、修得更好、負擔更多，我覺得那都是甜蜜的負擔，我們都願意承擔。"],["范委員雲：瞭解。我相信委員都在中央，大家會希望中央多買單一點，但是就像剛剛講的，財劃法分配給中央的錢就不夠了，如果少子化的錢都要地方出的話，我也會擔心萬一地方不做，因為沒有任何法律的基礎規定地方要負擔，這個事情應該大家一起來解決。當然，我個人還是希望行政院能夠務實算出之後，有一個可執行的版本，是不是我們不分黨派，包含葉元之委員，都一起來遊說地方願意承諾分擔多少？我想這樣才會有一個合理的溝通。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，專法的精神我們都很支持，專法的精神都是要孩子能夠吃得好、吃得安全、吃得營養、吃得均衡，所以我們都支持。只是像營養師增加，我們現在版本設算的經費也都出來了，如果我們不去面對的話，我們就不會去設算這個經費，也就是說，我們也希望能夠達到這個目標。"],["范委員雲：好。我希望這個溝通速度越快越好，也跟剛剛委員講的一樣，溝通的紀錄是不是也都可以給本委員會？"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為財劃法確定之後，行政院會有指示我們大概會減少多少的時候，如果有開過會，我們比較確定了，也許它覺得這部分不能減，我們就不會減。"],["范委員雲：跟地方政府的溝通紀錄也給本席一份，好嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝。"],["范委員雲：謝謝次長，一起加油。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員質詢，官員請回座。","接下來請葉元之委員繼續質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159467","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159467","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb02fb0ad8cf03ca79e4aa23c349ee8e6936c2779210393a151747f46cb97eb1dba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:59:55 - 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有請任市長這張最讚 來 請任市長委員長任市長 午安喔我今天的夜報上面有看到我們行政院人事總署非常關心有提到持續督促各機關依法足而禁用原住民及身心障礙人員特別是我們最新的數據"},{"start":29.722,"end":54.823,"text":"表示禁用原住民呢比率高達521%那這代表著說很多的機關單位其實都有蠻多的原住民的人員公務員在遍佈那為了代表我們的族群主流化我是希望說是不是也有做一個分類的資料就是把原住民的事務機關"},{"start":56.264,"end":73.223,"text":"跟非原住民的事務機關有沒有分開來的一個資料讓我們可以了解到目前這個族群主流化有沒有深入到我們全國各個行政機關那這是第一個那那個人事長我其實今天來是要幫忙關心園民會"},{"start":74.704,"end":100.093,"text":"因為園民會 您應該很清楚它的業務包山包海不僅僅是從山上到海邊它還有教育的 文化的 內政的 地政的 社福的包括經濟 衛生 福利 甚至速發 它都有關心就只缺一個國防部 可以說是一個小內閣那以它的這個編制員額不到200人來講"},{"start":101.733,"end":123.558,"text":"其實我們會替他很擔心因為這個機器很龐大遍佈全國所以呢 原民會其實對我們來講真的是我們最重要最高的一個原住民事務機關他很需要人力但是 任市長您應該很清楚我們前陣子 宣騰一時的"},{"start":124.798,"end":151.035,"text":"就是原民會狠狠的被砍了7%的一個人力那就是16個族群委員被砍掉 您知道嗎我知道 所以你們有提41個人的爭言是 所以我要提的就是說當時我看到原民會的官網還大剌剌的PO了一個文章叫做原住民族權益不容踐踏"},{"start":152.256,"end":166.224,"text":"上面還特別提到減少本會編制傷害自治發展等等然後提到說制度可以檢討體制可以革新但不歡迎這種報復式的修法但我們都很清楚確實"},{"start":167.865,"end":184.435,"text":"我們整個看起來就是為了要來癱瘓為了要毀憲亂政 不容易執政那現在我講一句實在話 原民會還表達他的立場咧他還說他要復議 要來申請釋憲 絕對不容許那請教一下任市長 原民會有這樣子做嗎那我跟您講 我看起來是沒有"},{"start":196.977,"end":219.271,"text":"沒有所以我們希望說這個部分我們總是還是要走我們希望我們的機關能夠正常所以我在這邊就是特別要提到少了這些人力光是我們的文件站全國有580多個未來可能會增加到七八百個"},{"start":220.091,"end":236.221,"text":"以前這些業務包括原家中心很多很多遍布在全國各地的業務都要有人去視察去輔導但是硬生生被砍了所以我想這個部分我希望任市長您能夠支持好不好"},{"start":237.722,"end":258.28,"text":"那個我們在2月27要收到延民會來的請證延合的需求事實上最近我們都會很高密度的跟曾主委還有杜章副主委三位副主委在談這個整個人力需求基本上我們會分階段來和給市長的一個所以任市長您會支持對不對"},{"start":259.54,"end":284.327,"text":"我們會核實因為我們還要會相關機關的意見那另外我也是要提到原民會長期以來的困境就是留不住人您要知道我們很多原特考進來的他如果分發在原民會分發在渡會地區他們滿了三年滿了六年三年他們會先回鄉然後滿六年"},{"start":285.607,"end":312.069,"text":"他們更希望的是去有原鄉家籍 山地家籍的地方服務這個你應該很清楚所以我先請教一下就沒有誘因嘛所以如果說我們反過來講對於這些我們要培育的原住民的這些事務官有可能給他們生活家籍嗎在都會地區的生活津貼嗎有可能嗎"},{"start":315.859,"end":323.366,"text":"這個議題是不是允許我們整體去考量因為他們光是住在都會地區一萬五以上就沒了他們滿三年都急著趕快回去"},{"start":324.641,"end":351.423,"text":"因為我跟原住民朋友非常熟 是所以我想跟人事長說如果可以最好但是還有一個方法就是有沒有辦法給園民會更多的員額而且是中高階的員額讓他們有一個升遷的管道至少他會留在園民會至少他為了要升遷他至少會留個十年以上"},{"start":352.404,"end":370.101,"text":"就流動率就不會那麼高我坦白跟委員講齁我接任市長之後在台東縣的人事處長跟花蓮縣人事處長都是用原住民的同胞一個是布農族一個是台灣族不是"},{"start":372.953,"end":384.563,"text":"我是非常重視這個區塊不是用嘴巴講我是用行動那花蓮還有一個檢任的職缺也是請原住民的同胞來謝謝那現在園民會呢"},{"start":386.26,"end":409.531,"text":"原民會他本身我們長期就跟他配合的非常好所以我們增加員額然後我希望這個員額你至少給他們例如像7到9值等多一點因為他們回到原鄉鄉公署服務沒有什麼值等這個是官規官制我不能隨便答應你而且人力的增補我們也要會行政院相關單位那委員的"},{"start":410.694,"end":434.427,"text":"意見我聽進去了好 謝謝任市長那這個部分就拜託您了那另外一個部分就是簡單的跟您提一下我也想聽聽看您的專業建議因為原民特考大家都知道長年它的開缺數跟它的分發人數有很大的一個落差這個您應該很清楚對不對所以大家也都在檢討"},{"start":435.487,"end":462.252,"text":"所以我舉個例子現在我們有原住民族語言發展法上面他說要有語推人員但是我們用專案處理例如我們的幼教照顧法它有提到互助中心的族語教保員但是我們用專案計畫處理例如我們現在推動的長照它上面呢文件站的造福員也是用專案計畫處理我的意思是說其實還有很多的例子可以舉"},{"start":463.172,"end":484.747,"text":"有沒有可能 既然這些是長期的計畫而且是未來社會發展所需要的一個長期的人力任市長 您覺得有沒有可能增加這一些類別考科我想我們再來跟研民會好好的溝通這一塊的所以您覺得 您可以提供專業的建議我們怎麼樣導向對不對"},{"start":487.388,"end":499.197,"text":"我會跟顏明慧一起來討論好那就希望我們任總這邊就是經過今天這樣的一個質詢也能夠先給我在兩個禮拜內先給一份告報告可以嗎好OK好謝謝謝謝任市長謝謝主席好謝謝吳立華委員接下來請岳元之岳元之委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":922,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時）謝謝主席，有請人事長。"],["主席：來，請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：人事長午安。我從今天的業報上面有看到，我們行政院人事行政總處非常關心，有提到持續督促各機關依法足額進用原住民及身心障礙人員，特別是我們最新的數據表示進用原住民的比率高達521%，這代表很多機關單位其實都有遍布蠻多的原住民公務員。為了代表我們的族群主流化，我是希望做一個分類的資料，就是把原住民的事務機關跟非原住民的事務機關分開來的資料，讓我們可以了解到目前這個族群主流化有沒有深入到我們全國各個行政機關，這是第一個。人事長，我今天來其實是要幫忙關心原民會，你應該很清楚，原民會的業務包山包海，不僅僅是從山上到海邊，它還有教育的、文化的、內政的、地政的、社福的，包括經濟、衛生福利甚至數發，它都有關心，就只缺一個國防部，可以說是一個小內閣。那以它的編制員額不到200人來講，其實我們會替它很擔心，因為這個機器很龐大，遍布全國，所以原民會其實對我們來講真的是我們最重要、最高的原住民事務機關，它很需要人力。但是在前陣子有一件事喧騰一時，人事長，您應該很清楚，就是原民會被狠狠地砍了7%的人力，有16個族群委員被砍掉，您知道嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我知道，所以你們有提41個增員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，所以我要提的就是，當時我看到原民會的官網還大剌剌地po了一個文章叫做「原住民族權益不容踐踏」，裡面還特別提到減少本會編制、傷害自治發展等等，然後提到制度可以檢討、體制可以革新，但是不歡迎這種報復式的修法。那我們都很清楚，確實這整個看起來就是為了要來癱瘓、為了要毀憲亂政，導致不容易執政，我現在我講一句實在話，原民會還表達了它的立場，它說它要提覆議、要聲請釋憲，絕對不容許。請教一下人事長，原民會有這樣子做嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：它應該有……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那我跟你講，我看起來是沒有。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：它是有喊出它要做的事情。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，我們認為這個部分我們總是還是要走，我們希望我們的機關能夠正常，所以我在這邊就是特別要提到，少了這些人力，光是我們的文健站全國有五百八十多個，未來可能會增加到七、八百個，以前的這些業務，包括原家中心，有很多、很多遍布在全國各地的業務都要有人去視察、去輔導，但是硬生生地被砍了，所以就這個部分我希望人事長能夠支持，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有，我們在2月27號收到原民會送來請增員額的需求，事實上，最近我們都很高密度地跟曾主委還有杜張副主委等三位副主委在談整個人力需求，基本上，我們會分階段來核給適當的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，人事長，您會支持對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會核實，因為我們還要會相關機關的意見。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。另外，我也要提到原民會長期以來的困境就是留不住人，您要知道，我們很多原特考進來的，他如果分發在原民會、分發在都會地區，他們滿了3年，他們會先回鄉；然後滿了6年，他們更希望的是去有原鄉加給、山地加給的地方服務，這個你應該很清楚。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我非常清楚。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我先請教一下，這樣就沒有誘因嘛！所以如果我們反過來講，對於這些我們要培育的原住民事務官，有可能給他們生活加給、在都會地區的生活津貼嗎？有可能嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個議題是不是允許我們整體去考量？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為他們光是住在都會地區，一萬五以上就沒了，所以他們一滿3年就急著趕快回去。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我知道，因為我跟原住民朋友非常熟，關於他們的情況，我非常清楚。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，所以我想跟人事長說，如果可以最好，但是還有一個方法，就是有沒有辦法給原民會更多的員額，而且是中高階的員額？讓他們有一個升遷的管道，至少他們會留在原民會，至少他們為了要升遷，至少會留10年以上，這樣流動率就不會那麼高。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我坦白跟委員講，在我接人事長之後，臺東縣的人事處長跟花蓮縣的人事處長都是用原住民同胞，一個是布農族，一個是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：排灣族？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是，是卑南族。我是非常重視這個區塊，不是用嘴巴講而已，我是用行動。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：在花蓮還有一個簡任的職缺，也是請原住民的同胞來。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝。那現在原民會呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們長期就跟原民會配合得非常好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我們增加員額，然後我希望對這個員額你至少給他們例如7到9職等多一點，因為他們回到原鄉鄉公所服務，沒有什麼職等。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員講，這個是官規、官制，我不能隨便你，而且人力的增補我們也要會行政院相關單位，那委員的意見我聽進去了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝人事長，那這個部分就拜託您了。","那另外還有一個部分就是簡單地跟您提一下，我也想聽聽看您的專業建議，關於原民特考大家都知道，長年它的開缺數跟它的分發人數有一個很大的落差，這個你應該很清楚，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我知道。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以大家也都在檢討，我舉一個例子，現在我們有原住民族語言發展法，裡面規定要有語推人員，但是我們用專案處理；例如我們的幼教照顧法，它有提到互助中心的族語教保員，但是我們用專案計畫處理；例如我們現在推動的長照，裡面文健站的照服員也是用專案計畫處理。我的意思是說其實還有很多的例子可以舉，既然這些是長期的計畫，而且是未來社會發展所需要的長期人力，人事長，您覺得有沒有可能增加這一些類別考科？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我想我們再來跟原民會好好溝通這一塊人力的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以您覺得您可以提供專業的建議，看我們怎麼樣導向對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我會跟原民會一起來討論，沒有問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那就希望人總這邊經過今天這樣的質詢，也能夠在2個禮拜內先給我一份報告，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，OK。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝人事長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝伍麗華委員。","接下來請葉元之委員，葉元之委員、葉元之委員，葉元之委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}},{"id":"159465","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159465","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb05ca37d5536a23f124aa23c349ee8e6936c2779210393a1517fa58c9f4dc8bf975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:43:14 - 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速發部等等的公家機關都有被踢爆有很多霸凌的案子"},{"start":161.559,"end":179.518,"text":"那衛福部調查後也有八個案子那現在在調查之後呢其實陸陸續續都確認有霸凌的問題所以這個霸凌現在在我們的公務員體系裡面它並不是一個假議題它是一個真實存在的那我想請問人事長一個最簡單的問題霸凌的定義到底是什麼"},{"start":181.021,"end":200.631,"text":"霸凌它是一個持續性的對上對下或者下對上也有可能下對上或者同等的同仁之間長期的那一種所謂的有一種歧視的一些作為歧視包含肢體還有口語的"},{"start":201.631,"end":216.273,"text":"所以有時候我們同仁在跟我講就是說眼影按摩的概念有的人講話就是比較沒有修飾啦就比較講得比較土一點這這樣霸凌的定義會不會過於空泛"},{"start":217.546,"end":233.44,"text":"事實上它因為就是definition的問題所以我們最近已經很高密度的跟保訓會在談這一些安慰辦法這一些定義因為定義要定清楚我們在執行才有一個依據嘛好"},{"start":234.742,"end":253.262,"text":"我想說我大概懂那個任市長的意思啦就是說很多時候當然我們自己念法律的嘛有時候法律的解釋除了是法條之外再來就是要有實際的案例再來補充嘛我想說這個我可以理解啦所以是不是說除了法律的或者是一些"},{"start":254.403,"end":269.935,"text":"公開的政府論述之外將來是需要有更多的案例來補充所謂的霸凌的解釋是不是我們事實上目前用最多的大概是法院的這些判決的一些案例我們是把它拿來引用"},{"start":272.077,"end":289.134,"text":"這個會比較客觀而且明確啦那我想說這可能將來是不是也要麻煩你們能夠濃縮能夠摘出一些比較重要的案例然後來解釋給郭文廷因為有一些東西他的關於文字的解釋也許人民不是那麼容易懂"},{"start":289.734,"end":305.972,"text":"就好像說之前那個國會改革的時候我們講反諮詢然後人家問我說反諮詢呢那我們說明完定義之後我們會說接下來還是需要有案例將來來補充這個部分的說明啦我覺得類似喔 我覺得法律人都這樣嘛法條"},{"start":306.773,"end":327.374,"text":"再加判決判例然後來補充讓它整個完整所以我還是希望說很多東西包括霸凌的定義是什麼除了法條之外我們還要把將來可能法院上面審理或者是一些實際上面行政機關所受理的案例要把它明確化來告訴各個公務員什麼叫做霸凌"},{"start":328.055,"end":356.001,"text":"那有些人他被霸凌他不自知那他看了也許他就懂他會去申訴或是有一些人他會知道自己的行為不對不可以這樣對別人所以還要麻煩你們在一起我們一起努力好我們這個大概原則上就如同我剛才講的我們會reference到整個法院的一些判例還有我們公務機關最近這一兩年實際的一些案例然後一個很重要的剛才委員提的我們會把它精簡"},{"start":357.041,"end":380.796,"text":"讓一般同仁一看就看得懂那我想說 人總去年12月有提出一個霸凌女王那個嘛就他有幾個例子嘛 公務員 下屬說要請商駕他就說你怎麼不讓你爸爸趕快燒一燒就好或是說有人流產 他就說你早上墮胎處理一下下午就可以來上班或是叫部署幫他"},{"start":381.917,"end":409.329,"text":"準備三餐 辦公室煮菜或是叫部署開車載他去做自己的事情或是把家裡的垃圾拿去辦公室叫部署處理我覺得類似像這種案例出來之後其實我們就可以告訴其他的公務員有這些例子這些一個一個案例的累積我覺得對於將來我們對於霸凌這個定義是能夠更精確因為法律總是要法律其實是要求要明確化我想那個"},{"start":410.129,"end":425.258,"text":"人長一定非常知道這個道理我們就只能就是將來再多給我們一些這樣的案例讓我們能夠更了解霸凌的定義到底是什麼最後這個主管當然後來是被記兩大過免職我想說這是一個好事"},{"start":427.579,"end":448.81,"text":"其實我覺得要不是說之前有那位無姓公務員的不幸事件其實也不會讓大家這麼重視有這個公家機關有這個問題那我自己我自己我剛剛說我當了24年的公務員那我博士班念的是公共衛生那我們也都知道其實職場職場的這個健康狀況它本來就是社會致病因子的其中一種"},{"start":449.83,"end":476.709,"text":"所以職場的心理衛生的狀況它本來就影響到個人的身體健康以及家庭的問題所以這塊處理好其實對家庭以及對於我們說健保也是一個好事因為它讓這個社會致病因子減少的話讓人民其實可以更健康那我再請教一下就是目前各個機關它有一些有那個霸凌申訴的評議會"},{"start":478.971,"end":496.339,"text":"那我看了一下六都啊六都有五都的這個評議會都有外部委員的參與但是高雄沒有但是六都以外的縣市像彰化新竹金門也都沒有剩下只有內部委員那我想請問一下你們人事總署你們"},{"start":497.219,"end":521.03,"text":"的相關的那個評議會都有請外部委員但是有一些地方的機關地方縣市政府並沒有那我想請教一下就是人長就這個部分你們有沒有思考去定一個標準要求國內的各公家機關的相關評議會都能夠強制的一定要有一定比例的外部委員在裡面"},{"start":521.69,"end":535.307,"text":"否則啊 我們接到的那個申訴案件我們某一個縣市有一個申訴案件他去做霸凌的申訴 就發現調查小組 申訴小組裡面的成員都是自己機關內的長官"},{"start":537.029,"end":554.25,"text":"那你也知道啦就是說在同一個機關內上班有時候他會不知道怎麼講啦甚至他講了以後這個霸凌者搞不好就是這個申訴委員會裡面的長官或者是長官的好朋友那這個要他怎麼處理我想請教一下你們的想法"},{"start":554.97,"end":574.239,"text":"我跟委員報告因為目前在包含剛才委員關心的霸凌的定義還有一些相關細節還沒有制定我們現在是通案給各個機關就是看各個地方政府或者政府機關他們自己去做一個判斷可是當這個安慰辦法修正以後"},{"start":574.859,"end":589.87,"text":"這些像我們目前大概會要求三分之一都是外部委員的這個部分到時候我們會直接寫進來大家有一個依詢而且相關的以疑似霸凌者的這些人"},{"start":590.39,"end":617.091,"text":"不予參與整個調查的一個程序剛才委員所關心的這個議題我們會在安慰辦法裡面會把它落入相關那你們可以兩個月內給我一個簡單的報告就可以嗎兩個月內不用很複雜啦給我簡單的報告告訴我你們怎麼處理這件事情可以可以沒問題那另外還有一個東西就是因為人事總署有一個霸凌申訴平台在去年12月上線對不對那裡面有提到用保密的方式來處理"},{"start":618.872,"end":640.949,"text":"但是呢 因為這個平台要公務員具名檢舉但是你們說你們會保密那我想請教一下 人種在收到這個檢舉之後是用什麼方式來進行處理 或者是事後的追蹤那怎麼樣可以讓這個被檢舉的那個機關不會知道是誰來檢舉的你們的做法是怎麼樣"},{"start":644.472,"end":670.393,"text":"這個部分的話原則上我們各機關都會請他指定那個收件的一個窗口所以我們在平台收到案件之後呢我們就會傳遞給這個機關指定的窗口由這個窗口他們去做後續的處理那在相關的處理作業上面我們也有要求機關要依循保密的原則去做後續的釐清跟調查"},{"start":670.993,"end":694.373,"text":"那機關他在處理完成之後的結果他也要回到這個平台通報他處理的結果是成立不成立那對於成立的案子他是給他做懲處還是做調理調整職務還是做其他的處理在這個平台上面我們也會請他要回報到這個平台來"},{"start":695.674,"end":720.951,"text":"事後的列管呢事後列管我們就會在這個平台去看如果他超過期限還沒有完成的話那我們也會試著去了解是什麼原因因為事務處理上面來講的話有些機關因為剛剛人上也有提到都要有外部委員的參與所以這個有些機關可能案子比較複雜另外也是專家學者的時間"},{"start":722.412,"end":738.923,"text":"因為不好booking所以這個調查的程序上面來講的話有時候處理上會稍微晚一點也會有這種情形但是不管結果怎麼樣我們那個後平台的部分我們都一定要他回報處理結果以上"},{"start":740.444,"end":760.661,"text":"最後幾十秒我講一下因為有很多公務員跟我們說這個申訴平台他們就覺得是很黑箱他們也不是那麼信任那是不是可以麻煩你們事後再追蹤的時候幫我們多加一項就是去問一下這個檢舉人"},{"start":762.847,"end":785.478,"text":"有沒有就是有人洩密或公開了他的資訊這件事情好不好我覺得這最重要喔公務員敢不敢檢舉很多人都是怕自己的身份被公開那你們可以做事後的跟他詢問有沒有這個事情然後要做個整理你才能夠再精進自己的這套系統吧我如果今天說我被霸凌了"},{"start":786.809,"end":806.091,"text":"但是呢我又覺得說你們把這個事情公開出去會不會有這個狀況我覺得如果是這樣的話我反而當事人他會有疑慮因為他如果說他疑是怎樣怎樣應該是他服務的機關那個調查的機關他直接又跟他回應如果"},{"start":807.418,"end":835.537,"text":"他一定要問這個議題的話 反而會讓他覺得會再度受傷反而有其他的疑慮事情已經發生 我只是說你們有說你們會做事後的追蹤那事後追蹤當然有包括到你有沒有處理好這個案子但是我只是想要知道一個點就是會不會有公務員他們擔心因為他們申訴之後他的事情被曝光出去那你們不用做最後了解一下這個狀況嗎"},{"start":837.859,"end":857.081,"text":"去做將來政策的微調跟委員報告就是說今天在這個平台的申訴來講即使是就是說他具名如果我們又再去問當事人說你們機關有沒有疑似洩密或是什麼其實對當事人來講可能他也會擔心說你們怎麼知道我這個案子"},{"start":857.852,"end":875.421,"text":"你不是居民跟他們 他們不是居民跟你檢舉嗎對 但是如果說要逐一去了解每一個人他有沒有疑似被洩密這個對當事人來講的話 他也會擔心說這個是不是他已經被洩密 我們才去這樣子問他"},{"start":877.162,"end":899.997,"text":"所以這個部分剛剛人士想提到就是說 不然這樣好了啦 我想時間的關係啦我也不想再聽你們 因為我覺得你講的這個邏輯我聽不懂我邏輯我真的聽不懂 他今天具名跟你們檢舉你們事後問他們 每一案 通案每一案都問 而不是個案問通案都問說 你這個處理之後 你有沒有發現這個申訴小組把你資料流出去"},{"start":900.757,"end":928.486,"text":"你就是問這樣子而已你說會造成他心裡什麼樣 這邏輯我不懂啦我們來設計一下 就是整個結案以後會讓當事人去填他對這個案子的滿意度或者因為這個是公務員最在乎的有沒有被申訴單位把他的資料流出去你認為說問他這個對他什麼傷害 我聽不懂你們的邏輯啦 真的好 那我請你兩個月內一樣把這個申訴平台處理方式還有這個我剛剛提到的這個"},{"start":929.426,"end":957.324,"text":"最後能不能夠去問這個申訴者他們對於有沒有被保密這個東西的想法你們看你們要怎麼做再麻煩你們告訴我我跟你說我不是找你們麻煩我只是說聽聽看他們的想法去做政策的微調我很肯定你們的政策但是竟然有公務員跟我們講他們很怕申訴完之後被申訴機那個處理機關流出去那你就了解一下嘛如果每樣問一問之後大家都很滿意那不是更棒嗎我的邏輯只是這樣"},{"start":957.904,"end":964.327,"text":"好 謝謝吳宗憲委員那確實啦這個霸凌的申訴這個部分追蹤的部分那個平台再跟吳委員來做一個說明那我們早上我看這個現在剩下上午的時間剩下20幾秒而已"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":886,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時43分）謝謝，麻煩人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早！"],["吳委員宗憲：人事長早安！今天要跟你請教一下，就是有關職場霸凌的部分。去年11月3日在我們臺灣鬧得滿大的就是吳姓公務員輕生的事情，之後我們國內都開始重視公務員職場霸凌的一些問題。我們再看一下，這幾年其實在公務員體系發生一個狀況，我自己擔任公務員有24年的時間，24年前那個時候的公務員其實是金飯碗，大家都很喜歡當公務員，但是我們看這幾年發生一個狀況，這幾年公務員的薪水也不好，退休金又被刪，導致報考率逐年一直下降，比之前少非常多；除了經濟部分的問題之外，其他部分，我們是不是有提供給公務員一個有保障的法規，這也是很重要的，而且也是能夠吸引優秀人才來當公務員的一個重要事情。前一段時間我們一直在討論公務員不管是過勞的問題或是霸凌的問題，目前我們來看，公務員還是沒有辦法納入職安法的保護，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們現在就公務人員保障法和安衛辦法。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，所以2月那時候保訓會有開一個防治公務人員職場霸凌法制研修會議嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想政府目前的方向還是希望把公部門的霸凌放在公務人員保障法的架構下面去處理，就是跟職安的部分要脫鉤嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，跟職安脫鉤。"],["吳委員宗憲：我想目前是這樣，當然政府的這個想法，我們是有點失望，但是我想說：人事行政總處你們總是整個政府的HR，所有機關的人事部門是由你們在掌管，從人資管理的專業角度出發，我們還是蠻希望你們能夠發揮你們的角色，能夠適當地處理這個霸凌的問題。從去年吳姓公務員的這個事情之後，其實不管是行政院、數發部等等的公家機關，都被踢爆有很多霸凌的案子，衛福部調查後，也有8個案子，這些案子在調查之後，陸陸續續都確認有霸凌的問題，所以霸凌現在在我們的公務員體系裡面並不是一個假議題，它是一個真實存在的。我想請問人事長一個最簡單的問題，就是霸凌的定義到底是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：霸凌是一個持續性的上對下或者下對上（也有可能下對上）或者同等的同仁之間長期的所謂歧視的作為，歧視包含肢體還有口語的，所以有時候我們同仁在跟我講，就是言語按摩的概念，有的人講話就是比較沒有修飾，就講得比較土一點。"],["吳委員宗憲：這樣霸凌的定義會不會過於空泛？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上，因為定義的問題，所以我們最近很高密度地跟保訓會在談安衛辦法裡面的這一些定義，因為定義要定清楚，我們在執行才有一個依據。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我大概懂人事長的意思，當然我們自己念法律的，我們理解，有時候法律的解釋除了法條之外，再來就是要有實際的案例來補充，這個我可以理解，所以是不是除了法條或者一些公開的政府論述之外，將來還需要有更多的案例來補充所謂霸凌的解釋，是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們事實上目前用最多的大概是法院判決的一些案例，我們把它拿來引用，這個會比較客觀而且明確。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，將來是不是也要麻煩你們能夠濃縮、能夠摘出一些比較重要的案例來解釋給國人聽，因為有一些東西光文字的解釋，也許人民不是那麼容易懂。就好像之前國會改革的時候，我們講反質詢，然後人家問我反質詢，我們說明完定義之後，會說接下來將來還是需要有案例來補充這個部分的說明。我覺得類似，就是法律人都這樣，法條再加判決判例來補充，讓它整個完整。所以我還是希望很多東西，包括霸凌的定義是什麼，除了法條之外，我們還要把將來法院上面審理的或者是一些實際上面行政機關所受理的案例明確化來告訴各個公務員什麼叫做霸凌，不然有一些人被霸凌了卻不自知，他看了也許就懂，他會去申訴，或是有一些人會知道自己的行為不對，不可以這樣對別人，這還要麻煩你們，我們一起努力。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，這個原則上就如同我剛才講的，我們會reference到法院的一些判例，還有公務機關最近這一、兩年實際的一些案例，有一個很重要的，剛才委員提的，我們會把它精簡，讓一般同仁一看就看得懂。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。我想說去年12月傳出人總有一個霸凌女王，他有幾個例子，包括下屬說要請喪假，他就說怎麼不讓爸爸趕快燒一燒就好，或是有人流產，他就說早上墮胎處理一下，下午就可以來上班，或是叫部屬幫他準備三餐、在辦公室煮菜，或是叫部屬開車載他去做自己的事情，或是把家裡的垃圾拿去辦公室叫部屬處理。我覺得類似這種案例出來之後，其實我們就可以告訴其他的公務員有這些例子，這些一個一個案例的累積，我覺得將來我們對於霸凌這個定義能夠更精確，因為法律其實是要求要明確化，我想人事長一定非常知道這個道理，那將來就只能再多給我們一些這樣的案例，讓我們能夠更了解霸凌的定義到底是什麼。這個主管後來是被記兩大過免職，我想這是一個好事，我覺得要不是之前有那位吳姓公務員的不幸事件，其實也不會讓大家這麼重視公家機關有這個問題，我剛剛說我自己當了24年的公務員，我博士班念的是公共衛生，我們也都知道職場的健康狀況本來就是社會致病因子的其中一種，所以職場心理衛生的狀況本來就會影響到個人的生理健康以及家庭的問題，所以這塊處理好其實對家庭以及對健保也是一個好事，因為讓社會致病因子減少的話，人民其實可以更健康。","我再請教一下，目前各個機關有一些有霸凌申訴的評議會，我看了一下六都，有五都的評議會都有外部委員的參與，但是高雄沒有，但是六都以外的縣市像彰化、新竹、金門也都沒有，只有內部委員。你們人事行政總處相關的評議會都有請外部委員，但是有一些地方的機關、地方縣市政府並沒有，我想請教一下人事長，就這個部分你們有沒有思考去訂一個標準，要求國內各公家機關的相關評議會都能夠強制要有一定比例的外部委員在裡面？否則我們接到某一個縣市有一個申訴案件，他去做霸凌的申訴，結果發現調查小組、申訴小組裡面的成員都是自己機關內的長官。你也知道，在同一個機關內上班，有時候他會不知道怎麼講，甚至他講了以後，這個霸凌者搞不好就是這個申訴委員會裡面的長官或者是長官的好朋友，那這個要他怎麼處理？我想請教一下你們的想法。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，包含剛才委員關心的霸凌的定義，還有一些相關細節目前還沒有制定，我們現在是通函給各個機關，由各個地方政府或者政府機關自己去做一個判斷。可是當安衛辦法修正以後，像我們目前大概會要求三分之一都是外部委員的這個部分，到時候我們會直接寫進來，讓大家有一個依循，而且相關疑似霸凌者的這些人不予參與整個調查的程序，剛才委員所關心的這個議題我們會在安衛辦法裡面落入相關規定。"],["吳委員宗憲：那你們可以兩個月內給我一個簡單的報告嗎？不用很複雜啦，給我簡單的報告，告訴我你們怎麼處理這件事情。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：可以，沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：另外還有一個東西，因為人事行政總處有一個霸凌申訴平臺在去年12月上線，裡面有提到用保密的方式來處理，但是因為這個平臺要公務員具名檢舉，但是你們說你們會保密。我想請教人總在收到這個檢舉之後是用什麼方式來進行處理或者是事後的追蹤？怎麼樣可以讓被檢舉的那個機關不會知道是誰來檢舉的，你們的作法是怎麼樣？"],["陳處長月春：這個部分原則上我們都會請各機關指定收件的窗口，所以在平臺收到案件之後，我們就會傳遞給機關指定的窗口，由這個窗口他們去做後續的處理，在相關的處理作業上面，我們也有要求機關要依循保密的原則去做後續的釐清跟調查，處理完成之後的結果，機關也要回到這個平臺通報它處理的結果是成立還是不成立，對於成立的案子，它是做懲處還是調整職務，還是做其他的處理，我們也會請它要回報到這個平臺來。"],["吳委員宗憲：事後的列管呢？"],["陳處長月春：事後的列管我們就會在這個平臺去看，如果它超過期限還沒有完成的話，我們也會試著去了解是什麼原因。因為實務處理上面來講，剛剛人事長也有提到都要有外部委員的參與，所以有些機關可能案子比較複雜，另外也因為專家學者的時間不好booking，所以這個調查的程序有時候處理上會稍微晚一點，也會有這種情形，但是不管結果怎麼樣，那個平臺的部分我們都一定要它回報處理結果，以上。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，最後幾十秒我講一下，因為有很多公務員跟我們說，他們覺得這個申訴平臺很黑箱，他們也不是那麼信任，是不是可以麻煩你們事後在追蹤的時候幫我們多加一項，去問一下這個檢舉人是否有人洩密或公開了他的資訊這件事情，好不好？我覺得這是最重要的，公務員敢不敢檢舉，很多人都是怕自己的身分被公開，你們可以事後詢問他有沒有這個事情，然後做個整理，你才能夠再精進自己的這一套系統吧？我如果今天說我被霸凌了，但是我又覺得你們把這個事情公開出去，會不會有這個狀況？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得如果是這樣的話，反而當事人他會有疑慮，因為如果他疑似怎樣、怎樣，應該是他服務的機關、那個調查的機關直接跟他回應，如果一定要問這個議題的話，反而會讓他覺得再度受傷，反而有其他的疑慮。"],["吳委員宗憲：再度受傷？我跟你們講，事情已經發生，因為你們有說你們會做事後的追蹤嘛！事後追蹤當然包括有沒有處理好這個案子，但是我只是想要知道一個點，就是會不會有公務員他們擔心，因為他們申訴之後他的事情被曝光出去，你們最後不用了解一下這個狀況嗎？去做將來政策的微調。"],["陳處長月春：跟委員報告，今天在這個平臺的申訴，即使是他具名，如果我們又再去問當事人你們機關有沒有疑似洩密或什麼，其實對當事人來講，可能他也會擔心我們怎麼知道他這個案子。"],["吳委員宗憲：他們不是具名跟你檢舉嗎？我不懂你的邏輯耶！"],["陳處長月春：對，但是如果要逐一去了解每一個人他有沒有疑似被洩密，這個對當事人來講，他也會擔心是不是他已經被洩密，我們才去這樣子問他，所以這個部分剛剛人事長提到，還是會回到機關裡面……"],["吳委員宗憲：我想時間的關係，我也不想再聽你們說明，因為我覺得你講的這個邏輯我聽不懂，邏輯我真的聽不懂，他今天具名跟你們檢舉，你們事後問他們，每一案通案，每一案都問，而不是個案問，通案都問說這個處理之後你有沒有發現這個申訴小組把你資料流出去？你就是問這樣子而已，你說會造成他心裡怎麼樣，這個邏輯我不懂啦！我完全不懂啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：報告委員，我們來設計一下，整個結案以後會讓當事人去填對於這個案子的滿意度或者……"],["吳委員宗憲：因為這個是公務員最在乎的，申訴單位有沒有把他的資料流出去，你認為問他這個對他會造成什麼傷害，我聽不懂你們的邏輯啦！真的。我請你一樣在兩個月內把這個申訴平臺處理方式，還有我剛剛提到的，最後能不能夠去問申訴者他們對於資料有沒有被保密這個東西的想法，你們看你們要怎麼做，再麻煩你們告訴我。我跟你說，我不是找你們麻煩，我只是說聽聽看他們的想法去做政策的微調，我很肯定你們的政策，但是既然有公務員跟我們講，他們很怕申訴完之後資料被處理機關流出去，那你就了解一下嘛！如果每一案問一問之後大家都很滿意，那不是更棒嗎？我的邏輯只是這樣，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳宗憲委員。確實啦！有關霸凌申訴追蹤的平臺再跟吳委員來做一個說明。","現在上午的時間剩下二十幾秒而已，我先處理一下會議時間，我們上午會議的時間就繼續進行到所有登記發言的委員詢答結束為止。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在，鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_star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我想這個我們對這件事情還停留在剛Kick off的這個階段那這裡面要運作各方面 這個都要透過好 這個我不要花太多時間在這裡了第二個 第二個問題比較大這個台積電要去投資美國到底是1000億美金還是2000億美金"},{"start":327.079,"end":339.732,"text":"就這個魏董事長回來的報告為準就是一千億美金可是川普總統一直講兩千億美金到底誰講得對那這個可能我們要再確認一下你也不敢確認"},{"start":341.71,"end":346.392,"text":"到現在為止我不是當事人嘛總統已經講美國總統美國爸爸都講兩千億美金了然後我們這裡點點的就默認喔一般的小老百姓就是默認兩千億美金那等於外董事長講一千億阿川普講兩千億"},{"start":361.619,"end":385.871,"text":"一千例沒搞到兩千例所以我要來確定一下我要來確定到底一千還是兩千例如說魏董事長講的才是事實啦我並沒有講說川普川普總統他怎麼樣子來表達這一件投資的這個案我不是很清楚但是以我們來講經濟部在把關這件事情的時候"},{"start":386.992,"end":398.279,"text":"就是台積電他要去美國投資多少錢1000億美金或者將來2000億美金都要經過我們的投審司請問現在投審司投審司有六個要件這個現在沒有時間講喔"},{"start":405.063,"end":414.792,"text":"請問這個件 送件沒有?送託診室沒有?到現在沒有到現在都沒有啊啊已經跟人家簽 也不是MOU就準備決定了啊你敢這樣 經濟部等於"},{"start":418.915,"end":446.342,"text":"這是委員您的看法啦我想這麼大的一個投資一個公司的董事長都可能信口開河我非常相信我也非常的尊重董事長我也非常佩服一個董事長可以在三天裡面見兩個總統然後他在分享的時候兩位總統都給他鼓掌好那其他的公司也可以這樣子喔我也可以直接去投資不要經過投資的事喔"},{"start":447.282,"end":473.323,"text":"我只要強調這一點喔我們的法令規定如果要從台灣把錢匯出去一定要經過投資人士啊投資人士不允許他,他怎麼去匯這個錢去?他要拿現金嗎?不可能的事情嘛所以現在他還沒有送啊他還沒有送不代表他不會投,他還沒有講說他什麼時候開始要請問你現在知道台積電的外資佔多少?"},{"start":474.724,"end":491.495,"text":"外資的部分大概佔了七八十個百分之七十二這裡面的董事我們台灣人三個啦外國人因為看起來大部分美國人四個獨董"},{"start":493.818,"end":510.665,"text":"幾位也都是外國人但是讀懂有一位是零權所以三四三台灣的董事三個美國的董事四個或者往其他看我們一直讀一讀都是外國人那讀懂三個裡面有一個零權這個這樣的一個結構外界的質疑外界的擔心是有道理的"},{"start":520.416,"end":524.079,"text":"這個要變美積電隨時可以變美積電啊董事改選馬上就 董事長就換人啦董事長換人就可以啦每一個產業都有它的特性不能夠用一般的論述啊來講這個特殊的這個產業台積電這個產業 坦白講它的這個資本支出啊"},{"start":544.756,"end":570.659,"text":"是非常大的一個產業所以他們不會笨到說我今天去到一個不具競爭力的這個地區然後去創造我自己的新的事業這個是完全不符合我想這個委員你也是管理局的專家你應該非常了解這個基本的要素從外資的結構他董事長換人是可行的"},{"start":571.96,"end":586.874,"text":"我是跟你強調這一點你跟我講其他都沒回答我的問題啊因為台灣人三個美國人四個啊獨統也是外國人兩個二比一他們的人都比我們多投票就改掉啦"},{"start":588.355,"end":613.233,"text":"為職家要被換掉都很輕而易舉啊只要投票就過啦所有的報告委員我想所有的董事啊他有一個責任就是要為了他的企業能夠make money如果照你這樣講這樣換了人他做的不好這樣兩下就被拉下來啦星際客不就這樣子嗎Intel這麼大的一個公司運作的不好你就下台"},{"start":614.894,"end":637.23,"text":"這個產業是非常非常救人的而且很容易去經營的部長我沒有時間再聽你長兵大論了我只是問你一個問題這樣的董事結構股東結構外資70%它的從太積電變成美積電的可能性存不存在我就問你這樣子"},{"start":638.26,"end":656.182,"text":"如果就學術上面的討論如果是學術上的討論當然可能啊機率很小機率很小對啊不然的話請你提出來這個論述嘛我要跟你報告就專業的角度來看不可能"},{"start":656.702,"end":663.247,"text":"因為我的專業我可以跟您報告就是不可能我在這個領域裡面我在這個領域裡面50年因為50年的經驗我可以很肯定的跟委員報告他就是不可能學術上面的討論就基於來看"},{"start":675.575,"end":700.029,"text":"他是非常微薄不是說不可能不是啊 微薄的機率你的經歷基本上是Trading比較多啦也不必把它講得多偉大你是Trading比較多啦貿易做得比較多啦我不是推理喔我推理也是符合這個你Trading做得比較多啦符合原則的啊我是用社會科學來推理的啊最後一點 我很在意的"},{"start":701.772,"end":706.769,"text":"你們現在用情緒勒索說不給你一千億就要漲價這一點"},{"start":708.672,"end":735.194,"text":"老實講這一點對整個民主運作是非常不公平的今天明明有便宜的核電一度一塊四你不用要去用很貴的這邊人家教授人家中研院都講了你們可以用核電你不用核電然後你硬要漲我們的價老百姓是不接受的啦"},{"start":736.089,"end":753.483,"text":"一千億也不會給你如果你提出條件說給我一千億我會核電我個人我個人我會支持但是你不要核電要一千億我不接受謝謝謝謝委員的支持事實上在我們經濟委員會的討論過程裡面一千億剛剛市長江其改委員也講過了一千億他正確的正確的判斷是3除30億"},{"start":764.071,"end":766.775,"text":"要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!要用核電腦!"},{"start":778.066,"end":794.984,"text":"然後你現在沒有你現在便利的店不用 便利用櫃的那個童子賢都講了童子賢你聽我講童子賢都講了我們不是說不用 而是說現在的法令在現在的法令的這個"},{"start":796.205,"end":816.906,"text":"這個之下我們必須要遵法我們也必須要守法今天如果我們不遵法不守法今天政府不遵法不守法那這個政府還有信賴嗎所以我跟委員報告今天那個法的框架在那個地方我們必須要依法行事這個你不能要求我們不依法行事這一點我們不能接受"},{"start":818.455,"end":832.193,"text":"沒有這個法咧沒有這個法沒有這個法核安法就規定在那邊非常清楚嘛如果今天我們理性的討論把核安法大家可以接受的話我們不排除"},{"start":833.146,"end":848.84,"text":"沒有說不能用核電啦這是一個信仰的問題這是執政黨他要的東西今天請你當部長我所了解的就是認為你開放你可以用核電結果你為了當部長你還是不要用你還是不要用法令沒有說不能用核電喔"},{"start":857.014,"end":876.93,"text":"法令上面有規定現有的核電機組必須在40年以後下載如果要研議必須在5年前提出來這個是明確的一個法令的規定我不能不遵守我最後講一句話就好了我再強調一遍"},{"start":877.932,"end":896.418,"text":"你一千億說可以啟用核電我支持不啟用核電我不支持第一個我結論你不用回答我時間到了一直被催第二個第二個很重要的一件事情那就是這個我們在野黨都已經替你們"},{"start":897.645,"end":919.516,"text":"都修改法令你說演藝要演藝都可以要護國都可以第三個美國老大已經在吹希望能夠用核電這個請部長認真思考否則漲價得不到明星謝謝委員所有大院的決定我們一定遵守謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":716,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時42分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長你好。我們看到內政部的防衛韌性擴編，範圍要推廣至經濟部、交通部、村里長及幹事等等，內政部喊防災士目標10萬人，整個來講就是目標40萬民力。整體感覺上好像臺灣快打仗的樣子，全民訓練、全民皆兵，請問它事先有沒有跟你聊過這個事情？內政部有沒有找你談過這個事？"],["郭部長智輝：對於全民防衛這個概念，我想大家應該都有，委員應該很清楚……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，我就問你，有沒有跟你談過？"],["郭部長智輝：我們大概都很清楚，勿恃敵之不來，恃吾有以待之。"],["賴委員士葆：對，我知道。有沒有跟你談過？跟部長或者跟經濟部談過，有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然有討論過……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有討論過？"],["郭部長智輝：每一個部門所承擔的工作和任務是不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：因為這裡面可以調，比如計程車；可以調你們經濟部底下的任何人，感覺上，在我們整個憲政運作上，除非總統宣布緊急命令，否則它不能夠隨便調在裡面工作的人，調車輛或調什麼的。它要調你們的人去訓練，我就問你一個問題，它調你們的人，這一段訓練時間給的錢……"],["郭部長智輝：這個主要是內政部……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有給錢，你知不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：內政部的一個目標和任務，經濟部……"],["賴委員士葆：對，我知道，但是你一直沒有回答我的問題！第一個，你好像不知道，到底你們底下誰……"],["郭部長智輝：因為我不是主導這一件事。"],["賴委員士葆：那你告訴我哪一位可以回答？哪一位可以回答這個問題，就是跟誰談，有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：我們目前為止都還沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：都沒有跟你們談……"],["郭部長智輝：都還沒有……"],["賴委員士葆：所以不是你剛才隨便講一下說會去談的……"],["郭部長智輝：委員所垂詢的部分是非常細的細節。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，這個很重要，因為……"],["郭部長智輝：我知道很重要，但你剛才垂詢的是非常細節的。"],["賴委員士葆：這是防衛韌性編組。"],["郭部長智輝：還沒有進入到您所垂詢的層級。"],["賴委員士葆：它等於是類似緊急命令底下可以徵用所有的人，緊急命令底下這樣做沒有問題。"],["郭部長智輝：我想我們大家都知道，總統也沒有下緊急命令，我們只是就這個命題上，我們大概知道有這樣的一個命題。"],["賴委員士葆：但是還沒有跟你談過嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：但我相信內政部也一定會依法進行這些……"],["賴委員士葆：我現在要確定，你剛剛跟我講有，你現在又說沒有，到底是有還是沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：我不能跟你講我沒有，有這一件事情跟這件事情的內容，這個差很多！我想這個……"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，我問的不是很細。我只問內政部有沒有找經濟部談哪？就問這樣子你却一直給我繞半天，沒有回答我！就是內政部有沒有找你談？"],["郭部長智輝：問題這麼大，我不知道從哪裡回答你的問題。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，有沒有找經濟部談？事實上是沒有嘛？你後面的長官也說沒有嘛！有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：那我請同仁回答好了。"],["賴委員士葆：好，有沒有找你們談？"],["劉副司長起孝：報告委員，因為這是涉及到跨部會的一個議題，內政部是主辦機關，全動署會召集相關部會討論這個事情。"],["賴委員士葆：你們有沒有被……"],["劉副司長起孝：目前沒有被調……"],["賴委員士葆：目前沒有嘛？"],["劉副司長起孝：對。"],["賴委員士葆：目前沒有，可是這個新聞就做得這麼大，讓人家感覺好像臺灣要打仗的樣子！也準備要打仗了，這感覺很不好啦！而且可以隨時調動經濟部、交通部底下的，連計程車司機也要調、里長也要調，是這樣子的，我要強調這個概念。以你們來講，它要調你們的人，然後你們完全也不知道，結果現在消息已經出來了。"],["劉副司長起孝：報告委員，這是全民防衛動員。"],["賴委員士葆：我當然知道全民的防衛動員，可是它已經要這樣做了，結果你們都不知道。照理講，內政部跟經濟部是一樣大，照理講要尊重你們，要知會一下經濟部長。很明顯經濟部長沒有被知會，我是替部長討公道！這個事情應該知會你一下。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，我們對這一件事情還停留在剛kick off的這個階段，這裡面要運作等各方面，都要透過很多的……來進行。"],["賴委員士葆：好，我不要花太多時間在這裡。第二個問題比較大，台積電要去投資美國到底是1,000億美金還是2,000億美金？"],["郭部長智輝：就魏董事長回來的報告為準，就是1,000億美金。"],["賴委員士葆：可是川普總統一直講2,000億美金，到底誰講的對？"],["郭部長智輝：這個可能我們要再確認一下。"],["賴委員士葆：你也不敢確認？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，這個不是我……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，我講到現在為止……"],["郭部長智輝：我不是當事人。"],["賴委員士葆：美國總統、美國爸爸都講2,000億美金了，然後我們這裡「惦惦」耶！就默認喔！這在一般的小老百姓……就是默認2,000億美金，那等於魏董事長講1,000億美金，川普講2,000億美金，1,000億不夠，還要2,000億！所以我要確定一下，我要確定到底是1,000億還是2,000億。"],["郭部長智輝：我跟委員報告，就是魏董事長講的才是事實，我並沒有講川普……川普總統他怎麼樣子表達這一件投資案，我不是很清楚，但是於我們來講，經濟部在把關這件事情的時候，就是台積電要去美國投資多少錢，1,000億……"],["賴委員士葆：1,000億美金，好……"],["郭部長智輝：或者將來2,000億美金，都要經過我們的投審司。"],["賴委員士葆：好，請問現在投審司……"],["郭部長智輝：我剛才跟委員報告過，投審司有六個要件，這個……"],["賴委員士葆：好，現在沒有時間講。請問這個送件了沒有、送投審司了沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：到現在沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：到現在都沒有啊！已經跟人家簽，也不是MOU，就準備決定了，你們卻是這樣……經濟部等於……"],["郭部長智輝：這是委員您的看法，我想這麼大的一個投資，一個公司的董事長……"],["賴委員士葆：都不要經過投審司？"],["郭部長智輝：不可能信口開河，我非常相信，我也非常尊重魏董事長。我也非常佩服一個董事長可以在3天裡面見兩個總統，然後他在分享的時候兩位總統都給他鼓掌。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那其他的公司也可以這樣子喔？它也可以直接去投資，不要經過投審司喔？我是要強調這一點，是不是這樣也可以？"],["郭部長智輝：我們的法令規定，如果要從臺灣把錢匯出去……"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！台積電怎麼把它的錢匯出去？"],["郭部長智輝：一定要經過投審司。"],["賴委員士葆：是啊！"],["郭部長智輝：投審司不允許它，它怎麼匯這個錢出去，它要拿現金去嗎？不可能的事情。"],["賴委員士葆：現在它還沒有送啊！"],["郭部長智輝：它還沒有送，不代表它不會投，它也沒有講它什麼時候就開始要去……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你知不知道現在台積電的外資占多少？"],["郭部長智輝：外資的部分大概占了七、八十個百分點。"],["賴委員士葆：72%！"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員士葆：這裡面的董事臺灣人只有3個。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["賴委員士葆：外國人有4個，看起來大部分是美國人；幾位獨董也多是外國人，但是其中有一位是林全，所以是3、4、3，臺灣的董事3個、美國的董事4個或者……我把名字讀一讀，都是外國人啦，另外是獨董3個裡面有一個是林全。對於這樣的結構，外界的質疑和擔心是有道理的，台積電要變美積電的話，隨時可以變啊！董事改選，董事會馬上就換人了啊！董事長換人就可以了啊，太簡單了，因為外資占72%。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，每一個產業都有它的特性，不能夠用一般的論述來講這個特殊的產業，台積電這個產業坦白講它的資本支出是非常大的一個產業，所以他們不會笨到說，我今天去到一個不具競爭力的地區，然後去創造我自己的新的事業，這個……"],["賴委員士葆：你沒有回答我的問題！"],["郭部長智輝：這個是完全不符合……"],["賴委員士葆：部長，我跟你講……"],["郭部長智輝：委員也是管理學的專家，你應該非常瞭解這個基本的……"],["賴委員士葆：部長，我跟你講，從董事的結構、外資的結構，它董事長換人是可行的。我是跟你強調這一點，你跟我講其他的，都沒有回答我的問題啊！因為臺灣人3個、美國人4個，獨董也是外國人2個，2比1，他們的人都比我們多，投票就改掉了，要把魏哲家換掉都很輕而易舉，只要投票就過了啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，所有的董事都有一個責任，就是要能為他的企業make money，如果照你這樣講，將來換了人，他做得不好，照樣兩下就被拉下來了啊！基辛格（Gelsinger）不就是這樣嗎？Intel這麼大的一個公司，運作得不好也就下台了。這個產業是非常、非常競爭，而且不容易去經營的。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，我沒有時間聽你長篇大論。我只是問你一個問題，這樣的董事結構、股東結構，外資占72%，從台積電變成美積電的可能性存不存在？我就問你這樣。"],["郭部長智輝：如果就學術上面的討論……"],["賴委員士葆：學術上來講當然可能啊！"],["郭部長智輝：機率很小。"],["賴委員士葆：機率很小？"],["郭部長智輝：對啊！不然的話，請你提出來機率很高的論述嘛！我要跟你報告，就專業的角度來看，不可能！"],["賴委員士葆：專業不可能，學術當然可能啊，怎麼不可能！"],["郭部長智輝：因為我的專業，我可以跟你報告就是不可能。我在這個領域裡面50年，以我50年的經驗，我可以很肯定地跟委員報告，它就是不可能！但是就學術上面的討論，就機率來看，它是非常微薄，不是說不可能，有微薄的機率。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，你的經歷基本上是trading比較多啦！你不必把它講得多偉大，你是trading比較多，貿易做得比較多啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我不是推理喔！我的推理也是符合這個……"],["賴委員士葆：你trading做得比較多啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我的推理也是符合原則的啊！我是用社會科學研究來推理的啊！"],["賴委員士葆：我的時間到了，沒有辦法繼續跟你講。","最後一點，我很在意的是，你們現在用情緒勒索說不給台電1,000億就要漲電價，老實講，這一點對整個民主運作是非常不公平的。今天明明有便宜的核電，一度一塊四，你不用，要去用很貴的電。人家教授和中研院都講了，你們可以用核電，你不用核電，然後硬要漲我們的電價，老百姓是不接受的啦！1,000億也不會給你，如果你提一個條件說：給我1,000億、我用核電，這樣我個人會支持；但是你不用核電卻要1,000億，我不接受！我就這樣告訴你。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的支持。"],["賴委員士葆：不用！是要核電、要用核電！"],["郭部長智輝：事實上在我們經濟部的討論過程裡面……"],["賴委員士葆：要用核電！"],["郭部長智輝：剛才張啓楷委員也講過了，他對1,000億正確的判斷是刪除30億，但是送到大院的1,000億完全被刪掉，我就覺得這個不是專業的討論啦！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，你應該要窮盡一切辦法cost down，可是你沒有，你現在便宜的電不用，偏偏要用貴的！童子賢都講了……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，剛才講了，我們不是不用，而是在現在的法令之下，我們必須要遵法也必須要守法，今天如果……"],["賴委員士葆：跟你講啦，人家請你來……"],["郭部長智輝：如果今天政府不遵法、不守法，那這個政府還有信賴嗎？所以我要跟委員報告，今天法的框架在那個地方，我們必須要依法行事，你不能要求我們不依法行事，這一點我們不能接受。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有這個法耶，這是……"],["郭部長智輝：有這個法啊！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有這個法！"],["郭部長智輝：核安法就規定在那邊，非常清楚嘛！如果今天我們理性地討論，核安法大家可以接受的話，我們不排除。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有說不能用核電啦！這是一個信仰的問題，這是執政黨要的東西，今天請你當部長，我所瞭解的就是認為你開放，你肯用核電，結果你為了當官就是不要用，你還是不要用！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我現在擔任這個部長，我必須尊重、遵守中華民國的法令。"],["賴委員士葆：法令沒有說不能用核電喔！"],["郭部長智輝：法律上面有規定，現有的核電機組必須在40年以後下載，如果要延役，必須在5年前提出來，這個是明確的法令規定，我不能不遵守啊！"],["賴委員士葆：我最後講一句話就好了，我再強調一遍，你1,000億說可以啟用核電，我支持；不啟用核電，我不支持，這是我的第一個結論，你不用回答我，我時間到了。第二個，很重要的一件事情，那就是我們在野黨都已經要替你們修改法律，你要延役都可以、要復活都可以。第三個，美國老大已經在催，希望能夠用核電，這個請部長認真思考，否則漲價得不到民心。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員，所有大院的決定我們一定遵守。謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。現在請洪孟楷委員做詢答。","我們先宣告：中午不休息，延長開會時間到議程處理完畢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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好 謝謝那我們也希望就是在三個月內有更多的優秀的人才繼續投入為國家在金融這個系統裡頭為大家服務謝謝委員 謝謝部長我想今天央行在下午要"},{"start":95.39,"end":122.257,"text":"召開禮監事會議你下午也會一起參加這個禮監事會議是的如果這個我們這邊的會議結束以後我應該就如果趕得上我就會去是好我想這個總裁在上一週他其實很明確的講到了就是分析到2025年全球的經濟的四大變數他講得非常清楚了他包括就是美國總統的一個執政還有各國央行他的升息跟降息"},{"start":122.817,"end":148.864,"text":"還有他的貨幣政策還有中國的經濟衰退還有地緣政治的一個風險這些因素都足以就是說在2025年其實是我們全球經濟的一個四大變數部長你對於這個四大變數這個四個變數裡頭它可能影響到物價跟社會那個一個穩定的部分現在財政部有沒有什麼樣規劃相對的因應的作為"},{"start":153.062,"end":169.106,"text":"跟委員報告您這邊列舉確實因為有相當多的一些不確定性存在不確定性存在那財政部來說第一個剛剛大家一直提到的就是說川普他會不會實施所謂的對等關稅然後對等關稅的細節內容是什麼然後對我們國內的產業會有哪一些產業會有影響以及影響的程度這個部分財政部和相關的部會一直都在持續的進行收集資料以及做盤點"},{"start":181.469,"end":196.479,"text":"同時行政院也有專案的工作小組在做各種模擬方案的應對那同時經濟部就我所指他也有跟相關的產業都去做一些座談了解他們的一些想法以及可能未來的困境所以我看你那個3月11號你有一則新聞稿就是我們內部的一個這個會議裡頭就是也是也做了很多因應的一個方法嘛所以說我們也希望就是說做好了萬全的一個準備那"},{"start":211.229,"end":237.29,"text":"當然這個下一個我想要再跟你討論一下就是居住的正義我們針對第八波不動產的信用的管制這個央行這對於就是不動產信用的管制他持續講得非常清楚他說會追蹤管制它的成效還有市場的一個變化那尤其會審慎就是銀行在每一季的黃帶的執行的情形跟改善的狀況"},{"start":238.472,"end":244.933,"text":"那言下之意就是說央行是不會再祭出第八波的信用管制了是不是"},{"start":247.158,"end":272.235,"text":"這個有關信用管制的部分應該下午的理事會也應該也會討論到這個因為每一次的一個不動產的信用管制要實施之前理事會都會討論那市場會不會再升息呢那這個部分有關市場是不是都會在下午的會議裡面做討論那會後呢央行的總裁也都會召開記者會對大家來做說明那你個人的態度呢你個人的看法呢"},{"start":272.455,"end":293.479,"text":"我想個人的態度其實是應該會在理事會裡面去做呈現然後大家一起討論所以不能提早講不適合不適合好那接著我想這個黃士景說其實我們看到了成效這確實也是一直在降溫那我們用去年的七月這個還有"},{"start":294.319,"end":316.261,"text":"兩萬多棟的一個交易到今年的一頁只剩下一萬多一萬多棟那顯然其實是我們有看到成效了可是看到這個成效我們要再繼續打黃打下去嗎這個打下去的時候對整個市場有多大的一個影響我們用這個15年前我們國人平均在"},{"start":317.542,"end":338.922,"text":"幾歲的時候我們通常是在30歲到35歲我們從年增中心拿到的這個資料就是說在15年前我們第一次買房子大概是年齡層落在30到3515年後我們其實是放在40到45部長你的第一棟房子幾歲買的"},{"start":341.052,"end":358.623,"text":"第一棟房子應該是三十幾歲吧 三十四、三十五那非常合理嘛 十五年前買的房子那問題就是說少子化還有年輕人買房子越來越不容易 也越來越晚了那像這樣的一個情形的時候我們怎麼樣來看待這個新青安啊"},{"start":361.324,"end":387.201,"text":"這個近五年35歲以下的年輕的那個黃袋主的一個申請的狀況我們有看到非常的明確我們從中信環屋的一個資料裡頭黃價的一個飆升許多購物的民眾其實擔憂就是說我現在如果不買的話未來可能會更貴就是因為這樣的一個趨勢這樣的一個心理因素所以造成我們推了新清安出來所以在這近五年我們的首購主"},{"start":390.182,"end":419.031,"text":"這個一直持續在增加甚至在35歲裡頭的青年貸款增加了五成這個五成是一個非常可怕可怕的一個數字那當然我們也是非常高興說有這麼多年輕人願意來買房子可是他們買的房子就是背負了在這裡在這個身上所以我剛才一直在請教你說對於這個新青安有沒有什麼比較好的一個看法那到今年二月底"},{"start":419.491,"end":424.394,"text":"新青岸已經累計10萬戶以上了他金額達到8224億這個金額達到8224億我想這個部長你手上也有一些資料了那所以"},{"start":436.441,"end":460.81,"text":"這個我們一直在推 推新清安它有很多讓人家詬病的就是說它一方面帶動了房貸的一個購物的需求可是它也把房價推高了那是不是我們可以有效的去阻止就是說它傳出它的轉租還有人頭戶的一個違規的情形你10萬多戶你才找到了1000多1000多的一個違規的情形啊"},{"start":463.751,"end":479.341,"text":"這個是不是就是說財政部的持續的一個加長查核的一個工作還有就是說不應該過度的去設限就是民眾申請新清安的貸款的一個水位因為你這個政策如果"},{"start":479.781,"end":506.264,"text":"如果就是說提前落日的話是不是央行跟你有財政部有想到什麼樣信用管制的一個措施可以相輔相成讓真正的有需要的年輕人他可以他可以就是買到房子而不是那麼大的一個負擔所以部長會後提供這些資料給我我相信你們一定有一套完整的一個設施就是說我們希望就是說"},{"start":507.185,"end":522.908,"text":"土銀跟台銀是乘坐最多這個親安業務的銀行這兩坡的查核我們其實才追回600多件的一個違規的一個貸款那第三坡的查核這個成效如何"},{"start":524.11,"end":542.311,"text":"這個我覺得我們也有看到一些成效啦那當然就是說這個超過一千件的那個舊的這個新清安違規的案件其實也被我們追回來了那我想這個查緝是有效的就是說利用人頭啦還是利用轉租出去"},{"start":542.972,"end":562.612,"text":"那治標跟治本我們怎麼來看它不可以否認就是說新青安政策的確幫助了很多年輕人購屋跟成家可是我們希望財政部持續加強這個查核的工作如果在明年專案結束以前你們不應該限縮民眾申請新青安的那個貸款的隨位這個"},{"start":564.634,"end":585.433,"text":"好像是如果你們把他緊縮了這形同就是政策是提前就是落日所以我想這個你要跟央行財政部我們密切的一個相輔相成我們認真的去執行新青安的一個政策的目標所以這個也是我想在這裡就是本席對那個財政部的一個要求"},{"start":586.334,"end":600.824,"text":"接著我想跟這個部長再討論一下這個中租低合加強租賃公司的年代金流的穿透式的一個管理那也請那個我們的那個第一金控第一金控也一起接受那個"},{"start":602.225,"end":617.391,"text":"被尋這個3月11號那個中租抵合中租抵合就是也跟那個申請那個年代案等於是向宣布再一次向義營等銀行銀行團年代的65億"},{"start":621.635,"end":641.653,"text":"這個65億部長還是回到你要怎麼還換這65億會不會透過就是中租體合會不會透過這些子公司的金流轉出來而流到皇室還是先買後戶先買後戶的這些地方你們有沒有一套完整的方式呢"},{"start":643.291,"end":659.464,"text":"先跟會員報告對於有關融資公司裡面的授信金管會已經設了四道防線第一個要追蹤資金的流向融資的用途作為不動產的必須要遵守央行的信用管制"},{"start":659.744,"end":688.595,"text":"另外一個納入銀行不動產的重量管制至於其他的融資授信部門要求融資公司要錢切節禁止再融資給建商那麼這個部分我們各個公股銀行都必須要遵循這個金管會的一些規範您有沒有穿透事業管理部長在上一個會期我有提到的就是用信託方式的一個方法去辦理住任公司授信案的可行性可是你這個報告交出來了沒有"},{"start":689.395,"end":714.182,"text":"用信託的方式誰可以回答我這個授信的方式還沒就我們的租賃公司我們用信託的方式辦理租賃公司的一個授信案的可行性的一個評估那我想委員這樣的要求我們會再提好嗎好那就這樣那易營的那個就不用說明了這樣好易營要不要回答"},{"start":716.454,"end":725.069,"text":"報告委員 我們這次主辦的這個連帶案主要是作為還過去的舊竊而且我們也 它也有竊竊就是不可以用以BMP幾個連帶銀行"},{"start":727.935,"end":755.411,"text":"除了你是主辦銀行還有幾個年代銀行我們目前還在年代的一個審核之中那參代銀行目前的核准還沒有下來所以我想這個穿透式的管理還是要提醒你我想就是針對的就是適用的一個法規最主要他要這個當地跨境的一個法規還有銀行法還有洗錢防治法這個要特別注意如果人家真的就是一個正派經營的公司"},{"start":755.911,"end":775.393,"text":"我們也不要一直給他污名化那我們就讓他是在一個非常就是合格的方式來借貸這些錢可是問題就是說謊言這麼多的一個這個案例太多了所以我還是希望就是就是連帶的銀行要特別的小心一點好謝謝委員謝謝主席謝謝我們來會員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":1010,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（11時43分）謝謝主席，有請財政部部長。"],["主席：我們請莊部長。"],["賴委員惠員：部長午安。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員午安。"],["賴委員惠員：我延續羅明才委員的議題，我們所有的公股銀行、泛公股銀行董事長代理總經理……就是金控的董事長代理銀行的董事長，剛才羅明才委員請教你會不會再拖過一年，你說不會嘛，那一個月也不太可能，是不是三個月有這個機會呢？因為我覺得適材適用，有更多的機會讓更好的人……就是說讓更多的人才來為國家服務，其實這個是我們期待的，三個月內呢？你可不可以決定？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，認同委員的看法，就是適才適所，而且我們對於臺企銀董事長卸任以後，應該不久就會有新的布達。"],["賴委員惠員：你的不久的將來，我們把他設定在三個月，有沒有機會？"],["莊部長翠雲：應該有。"],["賴委員惠員：應該有？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員惠員：好，謝謝。我們也希望在三個月內能有更多優秀的人才繼續投入，在金融系統裡頭為國家、為大家服務。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝部長。今天下午央行要召開理監事會議，你下午也會一起參加這個理監事會議，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，我們這邊的會議結束以後，如果趕得上我就會去。"],["賴委員惠員：好。總裁在上一週其實很明確的講到、分析到2025年全球經濟四大變數，他講得非常清楚，包括美國總統的執政、各國央行升息、降息以及貨幣政策、中國的經濟衰退，還有地緣政治的風險，這些因素都是2025年全球經濟四大變數。部長，對於這四大變數可能影響到物價跟社會穩定的部分，現在財政部有沒有什麼規劃、相對的因應作為？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，您這邊列舉……確實因為有相當多不確定性存在，以財政部來說，第一個，剛剛大家一直提到的就是川普會不會實施所謂的對等關稅？對等關稅的細節內容是什麼？然後對我們國內的哪一些產業會有影響以及影響的程度？針對這個部分，財政部和相關的部會一直在持續地進行蒐集資料以及做盤點，同時行政院也有專案的工作小組在做各種模擬方案的應對，同時就我所知，經濟部也有跟相關的產業做一些座談，了解他們的一些想法以及未來可能的一個困境。"],["賴委員惠員：我看3月11號你有一則新聞稿，就是我們內部的一個會議裡頭也做了很多因應的方法，所以我們也希望能夠做好萬全的準備。","下一個我想要再跟你討論的是居住的正義。針對第八波不動產信用管制，央行對於不動產信用管制也持續講得非常清楚，會追蹤管制成效以及市場的變化，尤其會審視銀行每季房貸的執行情形跟改善的狀況。言下之意就是央行不會再祭出第八波信用管制了，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關信用管制的部分，下午的理事會應該也會討論到，因為每一次不動產信用管制要實施之前，理監事會討論。"],["賴委員惠員：那市場會不會再升息呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分有關市場是不是再升息，都會在下午的會議裡面做討論，會後央行的總裁也都會召開記者會，對大家來做說明。"],["賴委員惠員：你個人的態度呢？你個人的看法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想個人的態度，其實是應該會在理事會裡面去做呈現，然後大家一起討論。"],["賴委員惠員：所以不能提早講？"],["莊部長翠雲：不適合。"],["賴委員惠員：不適合？好。","接著房市緊縮，其實我們看到了成效，確實也是一直在降溫，我們以去年7月來看，還有兩萬多棟的交易，到今年1月只剩下一萬多棟，顯然其實是我們有看到成效了，可是看到這個成效，我們要再繼續打房打下去嗎？這個打下去，對整個市場有多大的影響？15年前國人平均在幾歲的時候買房？我們通常是在30歲到35歲，我們從聯徵中心拿到的資料，在15年前，我們第一次買房子，大概年齡層是落在30歲到35歲，15年後我們其實是放在40歲到45歲。部長，你的第一棟房子是幾歲買的？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一棟房子應該是三十幾歲吧？大概是34歲、35歲。"],["賴委員惠員：非常合理嘛！15年前買的房子。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["賴委員惠員：問題就是少子化，還有年輕人買房子越來越不容易，也越來越晚了，像這樣的情形，我們怎麼樣來看待新青安？近5年35歲以下年輕房貸族的申請狀況，我們看得非常的明確，我們從中信房屋的資料裡頭，房價的飆升，許多購屋民眾其實擔憂現在如果不買，未來可能會更貴，就是因為這樣的趨勢、這樣的心理因素，所以造成我們推了新青安出來，所以在這近5年，首購族一直持續在增加，甚至在35歲裡頭的青年貸款增加了五成，這個五成是一個非常可怕的數字。當然我們也是非常高興有這麼多年輕人願意買房子，可是他們買了房子，就是背負在身上。所以我剛才一直在請教你，對於新青安有沒有什麼比較好的看法，到今年2月底，新青安已經累計10萬戶以上了，金額達到8,224億。部長，你手上也有一些資料，我們一直在推新青安，它有很多讓人家詬病的，它一方面帶動了房貸的購屋需求，可是它也把房價推高了，是不是我們可以有效的去阻止它的轉租，還有人頭戶的違規情形？十萬多戶，你才找到了一千多件違規的情形，這個是不是財政部應該持續加強查核的工作，還有不應該過度設限民眾申請新青安貸款的水位，因為這個政策如果提前落日，是不是央行跟財政部有想到什麼樣信用管制的措施可以相輔相成，讓真正有需要的年輕人可以買到房子，而不是那麼大的負擔？所以部長，會後提供這些資料給我，我相信你們一定有一套完整的設施，我們希望土銀跟臺銀是承作最多青安業務的銀行，這兩波的查核，我們其實才追回六百多件的違規貸款，第三波查核的成效如何？我覺得我們也有看到一些成效，當然超過一千件舊的新青安違規案件其實也被我們追回來了，我想查緝是有效的，就是針對利用人頭還是利用轉租出去的部分。治標跟治本，我們怎麼來看？不可以否認，新青安政策的確幫助了很多年輕人購屋跟成家，可是我們希望財政部持續加強查核的工作，如果在明年專案結束以前，你們不應該限縮民眾申請新青安貸款的水位，如果你們把它緊縮了，就形同政策是提前落日，所以我想央行跟財政部要密切的相輔相成，我們認真的去執行新青安政策的目標，所以這也是本席在這裡對財政部的要求。","接著，我想跟部長再討論一下中租迪和，加強租賃公司聯貸金流的穿透式管理，也請第一金控一起接受備詢，3月11號中租迪和也申請聯貸案，等於是宣布再次向一銀等銀行團聯貸了65億。部長，這個還是回到你要怎麼防範這65億，中租迪和會不會透過這些子公司的金流轉出來，而流到房市，還是先買後付的這些地方？你們有沒有一套完整的方式呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：先跟委員報告，對於有關融資公司裡面的授信，金管會已經設了四道防線，第一個，要追蹤資金的流向、融資的用途，作為不動產的，必須要遵守央行的信用管制。另外一個，納入銀行不動產的總量管制，至於其他的融資授信部分，要求融資公司要簽切結，禁止再融資給建商。那麼這個部分，我們各個公股銀行都必須要遵循金管會的一些規範，這個部分……"],["賴委員惠員：你有沒有穿透式的管理？部長，在上一個會期，我有提到用信託方式的一個方法去辦理租賃公司授信案的可行性，可是你這個報告交出來了沒有？用信託的方式。誰可以回答我？"],["莊部長翠雲：還沒。"],["賴委員惠員：我們用信託的方式辦理租賃公司授信案的可行性評估。"],["莊部長翠雲：我想委員這樣的要求，我們會再提，好嗎？"],["賴委員惠員：好。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，那就這樣，一銀的那個部分就不用說明了，是嗎？"],["賴委員惠員：一銀要不要回答？"],["邱董事長月琴：報告委員，我們這次主辦的這個聯貸案，主要是作為還過去的舊欠，而且它也有切結不可以用於BNPL，也就是先買後付……"],["賴委員惠員：幾個聯貸銀行？除了你是主辦銀行，還有幾個聯貸銀行？"],["邱董事長月琴：我們目前還在聯貸的審核之中，參貸銀行目前的核准還沒有下來，主辦銀行先核准了……"],["賴委員惠員：所以我想這個穿透式的管理還是要提醒你。"],["邱董事長月琴：謝謝委員的提醒。"],["賴委員惠員：我想針對適用的法規，最主要當地跨境的法規，還有銀行法，還有洗錢防制法要特別注意，如果人家真的就是一個正派經營的公司，我們也不要一直給它污名化，我們就讓它是在一個非常合格的方式來借貸這些錢，可是問題就是坊間這麼多的案例，太多了，所以我還是希望聯貸的銀行要特別小心一點。"],["邱董事長月琴：好，謝謝委員的指導。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝主席。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員召委。","接下來我們請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159462","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159462","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb029b91787ef463d4901b4bb3d6676f3fd60f1855e115a4ba43c75c7788f2af55f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"11:43:27 - 11:54:15","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T11:43:27+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T11:54:15+08:00","duration":648,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":2.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.27471875,"end":8.316593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.180968750000002,"end":12.906593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.99096875,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.189093750000001,"end":60.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.899093750000006,"end":82.53284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.48221875,"end":83.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.08096875000001,"end":86.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.54909375000001,"end":86.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.05534375,"end":111.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.65096875,"end":176.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.97034375000001,"end":118.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.96596875,"end":119.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.83534375000002,"end":145.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.62409375000001,"end":146.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.99471875,"end":187.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.48784375000002,"end":181.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.54159375,"end":189.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.41909375,"end":208.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.63971875000001,"end":217.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.52034375000002,"end":216.89159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.05596875,"end":220.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.62096875,"end":241.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.77596875,"end":228.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.13034375,"end":228.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.90034375000002,"end":254.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.24096875,"end":249.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.07096875,"end":280.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.47659375,"end":284.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.40846875,"end":287.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.45034375,"end":376.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.37409375000004,"end":288.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.10346875,"end":292.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.37721875,"end":386.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.92846875000004,"end":422.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.05471875,"end":388.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.05346875000004,"end":434.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.95034375,"end":435.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.67596875000004,"end":436.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.19471875000005,"end":473.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.56096875000003,"end":471.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.34534375000004,"end":472.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.89784375000005,"end":478.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.94784375,"end":478.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.19659375000003,"end":497.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.65784375000004,"end":538.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.63471875,"end":541.3640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.45721875,"end":548.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.3715937500001,"end":557.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.0834687500001,"end":555.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.3953437499999,"end":566.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.27159375,"end":571.1653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.84534375,"end":568.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.9797187500001,"end":572.7178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.03846875,"end":574.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.89034375,"end":586.6059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.82534375,"end":589.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.22159375,"end":596.3428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.1828437500001,"end":598.7222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.77721875,"end":643.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.1272187500001,"end":599.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.3290937500001,"end":604.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.10784375,"end":615.49596875},{"speaker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請張廖次長"},{"start":12.636,"end":19.602,"text":"好委員好這邊我想先跟您討論關於這次學測的這個成績我們學測成績剛公佈不久但是這個統計卻顯示說在英文的成績狀況已經連兩年底標都降為三級分後標也降為四級分那在五級分以下的學生佔比從23.14%提升到34.17%增加了百分之十"},{"start":36.295,"end":58.937,"text":"那有高中的英文老師有指出111年到114年的這個學測的英文成績比較友善那麼在題目變簡單的情況之下成績卻變得比較差可能就不是題目造成的結果社長這邊我想請教你教育部針對這次的成績英文的成績狀況你們有沒有掌握我們會不會針對英文成績持續探底的這個狀況來進行檢討"},{"start":61.179,"end":81.863,"text":"對委員的關心我們也非常關心教育部過去不管是透過高中優質化的補助方案或者是高職的優質化的補助方案其實對於城鄉的差距你提到的就是說英文的成績會有一些落差我們也都持續關心詳細的部分我們是不是請副市長來那請您簡短的"},{"start":85.169,"end":89.974,"text":"哪一位回答謝謝委員的關心剛剛所提每個學校可能有他原來的校本的經營但是國家的政策還是在有幾大政策上我們持續給予協助剛剛委員關心到那個成績有特別的情況我們會就跟高教師去釐清他那個背後真實的不管是學校區塊"},{"start":111.374,"end":130.122,"text":"我希望你們盡快的去了解英文是很重要的基礎科目在大學階段也有很多課程師會有閱讀原文書的需求所以我們在這個部分去了解為什麼是什麼原因是教學還是什麼原因造成會有這樣子的標準都下降的狀況"},{"start":133.044,"end":137.449,"text":"因為英文也是目前全球最通用的語言所以我希望說你們針對這個部分呢這個我們學生相關的英文的實力的這個提升的這個方案你們來研議一下那你再給我一份報告好"},{"start":147.5,"end":176.616,"text":"接下來我請到次長目前有報導說在桃園的某國中傳出在露營的活動中有使用中國軍服那本席這邊有跟國防部確認這個活動所使用的迷彩服確實不是我國軍所使用的這個我也認得因為我想要再當兵他每個禮拜會帶回來給我洗所以這不是我們自己國軍的這個試樣那這邊我將這個迷彩服有放大次長您看一下你覺得說這個很明確不是我們的那你可以看得出來這是中國軍方使用的迷彩嗎"},{"start":178.355,"end":193.669,"text":"這個媒體有報導說這是比較明顯是解放軍的啦但是業者有辯解啦但是我看這個看起來似乎是沒有錯其實對於一般的教師啊學生或是民眾可能沒有辦法及時的來辨認說阿彌陀佛的樣式是哪一個國家"},{"start":196.511,"end":207.981,"text":"所以對於負責辦理活動的廠商跟校方其實就應該更嚴格來把關那我想請教現在對於目前國中露營活動他們使用這些迷彩服我們有定相關的要求嗎還是規定嗎"},{"start":208.866,"end":226.843,"text":"這地方的權責我們沒有管到那麼細啦不過我想請那個署這邊其實這兩天也有發函地方也跟地方做了解來做一個回應所以說署這邊已經有跟就在那第一時間3月17號我們今天新聞喊請桃園市政府做確實的了解"},{"start":228.024,"end":253.405,"text":"但同時對地方政府怎麼繼續監督管理跟學校本位如何訂定相關的這個活動的設計跟活動實施過程的了解這一套我們都有跟各縣市來做溝通跟要求謝謝所以署這邊已經有去研議說如何防止學校再發生這樣的事件那我想請問一下那針對這個使用中國軍服的廠商我們有任何的問責的機制嗎"},{"start":257.393,"end":272.753,"text":"我們會請桃園市政府教育局來掌握本案後續的狀況事實上去負起督導學校的一個角色如果有違反相關的規定那麼也可以依照他們相關的法令"},{"start":273.894,"end":294.847,"text":"包括校長適不適任的問題那處理上有沒有行政上的一個問題來做一個問責好那也希望你們能夠掌握盡快的掌握相關那趕快去了解我們會把這個案件列為重點本期在這邊真的要強調其實中國現在正不斷的以各種方式來侵擾台灣甚至他們也不斷的就是放言說他們不放棄武力犯台"},{"start":295.547,"end":320.773,"text":"所以我們不能在學校的教育我們所舉辦的活動上這麼大意我們甚至這等於是在幫中國做這個認知作戰所以本席會希望說我們教育部盤盡快的對這個事情我們來了解你們要提出一份檢討報告給我因為這不是小事這不是小事中國一直對我們有存在敵意我們在教育上要非常的小心我們要有這樣的憂患意識那接下來呢我還要再問你一下"},{"start":322.274,"end":340.289,"text":"桃園某國小的校長在抖音上發布統戰圖文甚至還發表兩岸一家親的言論如果我們的校長他都是有這種觀念他要怎麼帶領一間學校來阻止中國統戰思維滲透甚至說這個校長他還是我們足球協會的理事"},{"start":341.83,"end":369.485,"text":"次長 這樣子錯綜複雜的關係及人際網絡都是中國拿來滲透的管道所以本席希望說教育部可以審慎地面對就是全面來檢討相關的這些人員也要注意管束這些言論的適當性本席不希望說某些人士利用特定的這些體育團體來動作管道將運動及運動活動比賽染上這個統戰的色彩我希望教育部 整個教育部還有包含體育署我們所有的"},{"start":370.566,"end":385.761,"text":"都要好好的來應對那次長您對這個您的看法跟您的現在可能要做的做法是這樣我想這個行為是非常不妥啦完全非常不妥那至於他的這個相關的選擇還是在台灣市政府那這個國家署這邊已經也跟他們聯繫"},{"start":385.981,"end":405.181,"text":"那再請你們持續追蹤好嗎我再次強調其實中國對台灣有存在的很巨大的敵意我們不能沒有優換意識這一點我希望說我們在整個教育體系我們一定有這樣子的概念好這現在進入我們今天主要我們那個學校飲食法的這個主題"},{"start":406.002,"end":434.289,"text":"我想請教說這次學校飲食法的增訂所有委員的版本都有明文規定要增設營養師及飲食秘書那教育部你們會朝這個方向研議嗎那如果以委員的版本你們有沒有預計要增設多少人力需要多少的預算對 其實我們送院的布版裡面當然也有布版的一些綜合大家考慮提出來的一個版本那這個詳細的部分我們是不是請署長來回答好 謝謝"},{"start":435.911,"end":447.576,"text":"剛剛委員催詢到營養師跟有關的五蜜營養師的部分如果按照目前我們的規劃是公辦公營的大概會增加263人將近要增加的經費是達到2億7800萬那如果是五蜜的部分現行五蜜有41%是老師監作"},{"start":456.539,"end":470.478,"text":"有59%是非老師處理那這整體有簡課的方式也有很多的其他的建議那這些建議如果加計起來可能會達到五億多五億的部分所以這個都在那個剛剛講增加的那個26億內"},{"start":473.943,"end":497.099,"text":"就是兩億再加五億如果以營養師跟飲食秘書來講的話那其實我們根據新修正的這個才化法中央各單位已經預計要撥出去的大概是將近百分之三十的預算到地方政府那我們教育部現在在教育的整個預算減少的情況下那你們有辦法負擔這些新增加的高額的預算嗎"},{"start":498.239,"end":512.944,"text":"對 謝謝委員的關心如果按照專法草案各項的項目經費剛才除了營養師的部分可能需要兩億七千八百七十八萬之外像補助高級中等學校經濟弱勢學生午餐的所需經費還需要增加到四萬四億左右"},{"start":513.504,"end":531.603,"text":"那午餐秘書專職化所需的經費以這個組長值來預估可能要5億5千萬那學校廚房硬體及設備的器具經費的補助也會高達2億6那有關這個高級中等學校納入張Q補助那只是團散的那個部分也要1億7千6百萬"},{"start":532.924,"end":548.867,"text":"所以我說這個最起碼最少還會再增加26億7300萬以最少的版本來算至少要增加26億以上所以整個補助不包括餐費就營養午餐的部分就高達100億7384萬那針對這個專法教育部沒有辦法來負擔的情況之下你們有預計就是將這些增加的預算跟地方政府來協調到底地方應該要負責多少"},{"start":557.969,"end":574.198,"text":"財發法現在的狀況就是復議案沒有過那現在行政院還在做這個救濟那我們也希望比較確定之後那你們預計何時開始展開跟地方跟團體的這些對談跟溝通我們會盡快啦 署長可能有你們規劃大概什麼時候開始"},{"start":575.916,"end":592.211,"text":"可能我們大概在可能有一些才化法的那個確認之後比較好來溝通才有一個標的跟未來做法的溝通方向也好或是各項目也好所以說要等才化法整個比較精確的離居之後"},{"start":595.194,"end":614.292,"text":"救濟成功沒有減少的話當然就會繼續加碼因為我很希望說你們盡快可以展開就是不管是跟教師啊家長啊跟學生團體跟地方政府溝通那你們才能夠把各方的意見都融合之後你們盡快提出你們的版本喔那因為你有溝通過了之後這推行才能夠順利"},{"start":615.553,"end":643.477,"text":"這個部分希望說你們可以盡快的來做這些相關的後續那我這邊也要強調一下我的版本裡面是透過學校提供的餐食讓孩子來認識食材也推廣健康的這個飲食的意識希望結合台灣在地的優質農產品以及特色飲食文化而且是強化跟在地食材跟人文歷史的連結所以這個部分也希望說教育部你們可以嚴嚴納入你們法案的方向讓我們的學校飲食法可以落實食農教育的精神"},{"start":643.797,"end":645.748,"text":"好 謝謝瑋瑜的關心我們來努力 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":711,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（11時43分）謝謝主席，請張廖次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：次長好。我想先跟您討論關於這次學測的成績，我們學測成績剛公布不久，但是這個統計卻顯示說，在英文的成績狀況，已經連兩年底標都降為三級分，後標也降為四級分，在五級分以下的學生占比從23.14%提升到34.17%，增加了10%，有高中的英文老師指出，111年到114年的學測英文成績比較友善，那麼在題目變簡單的情況之下，成績卻變得比較差，可能就不是題目造成的結果。次長，我想請教你，教育部針對這次的英文成績狀況，你們有沒有掌握？你們會不會針對英文成績持續探底的這個狀況來進行檢討？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對於委員的關心，我們也非常關心，教育部過去不管是透過高中優質化的補助方案，或者是高職優質化的補助方案，其實對於城鄉的差距，你提到英文的成績會有一些落差，我們也都持續關心，詳細部分我們是不是請署長來……"],["陳委員秀寳：請您簡短的回答。"],["彭署長富源：謝謝委員的關心。剛剛所提每個學校可能有它原來校本的經營，但是國家的政策還是在有幾大政策上我們持續給予協助，剛剛委員關心到那個成績有特別的情況，我們會跟高教司去釐清它那個背後真實的，不管是學校、區塊，這樣才能夠……"],["陳委員秀寳：真實到底是什麼原因造成，我希望你們儘快的去了解，因為其實英文是很重要的基礎科目，那在大學階段也有很多課程是會有閱讀……"],["張廖次長萬堅：會變M型化。"],["陳委員秀寳：會有閱讀原文書的需求，所以我們在這個部分去了解說是什麼原因，是教學呢？還是什麼原因造成會有這樣子標準都下降的狀況，因為英文也是目前全球最通用的語言，所以我希望你們針對這個部分，我們學生相關英文實力提升的方案，你們來研議一下，你再給我一份報告。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：接下來我請教次長，目前有報導說在桃園的某國中傳出在露營的活動中有使用中國軍服，本席有跟國防部確認，這個活動所使用的迷彩服確實不是我國軍所使用的，這個我也認得，因為我小孩在當兵，他每個禮拜會帶回來給我洗，所以這不是我們自己國軍的式樣。這邊我將這個迷彩服放大，次長您看一下，這個很明確不是我們的，你可以看得出來這是中國軍方使用的迷彩嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：媒體有報導說這個比較明顯是解放軍的啦！可是業者有辯解，但我看起來似乎是沒有錯。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實對於一般的教師、學生或是民眾，可能沒有辦法即時的辨認迷彩服的樣式是哪個國家，所以對於負責辦理活動的廠商跟校方，其實就應該更嚴格來把關，我想請教，現在對於目前的國中露營活動，他們使用的這些迷彩服我們有訂相關的要求還是規定嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這是地方的權責，我們沒有管到那麼細，不過署這邊其實這兩天也有發函地方，也跟地方做了解，並做了回應。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以署這邊已經有跟……"],["彭署長富源：在第一時間3月17號，我們已經行文函請桃園市政府做確實的了解，當然同時對地方政府怎麼繼續監督管理，跟學校本位如何訂定相關的活動設計，跟活動實施過程的了解，這一套我們都有跟各縣市來做溝通跟要求，謝謝。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以署這邊已經有去研議說如何防止學校再發生這樣的事件？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：我想請問一下，針對這個使用中國軍服的廠商，我們有任何問責的機制嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會請桃園市政府教育局來掌握本案後續的狀況，事實上去負起督導學校的角色，如果有違反相關的規定，也可以依照他們相關的法令，包括校長適不適任的問題、處理上有沒有行政上的問題來做一個問責。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，也希望你們能夠儘快的掌握相關訊息，趕快去了解，其實……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會把這個案件列為重點，就是說……"],["陳委員秀寳：本席在這邊真的要強調，其實中國現在正不斷的以各種方式來侵擾臺灣，甚至他們也不斷的放言說他們不放棄武力犯臺，所以我們不能在學校所舉辦的活動上這麼大意，甚至這等於是在幫中國做認知作戰，所以本席會希望教育部儘快地對這個事情來了解，你們要提出一份檢討報告給我，因為這不是小事、這不是小事，中國一直對我們有存在敵意，我們在教育上要非常的小心，我們要有這樣的憂患意識。","接下來我還要再問一下，桃園某國小的校長在抖音上發布統戰圖文，甚至還發表兩岸一家親的言論，如果我們的校長都有這種觀念，他要怎麼帶領一間學校來阻止中國統戰思維滲透？甚至這個校長他還是我們足球協會的理事，次長，這樣子錯綜複雜的關係及人際網絡，都是中國拿來滲透的管道，所以本席希望教育部可以審慎地面對，全面來檢討相關的這些人員，也要注意管束這些言論的適當性，本席不希望某些人士利用特定的這些體育團體來當作管道，將運動及運動活動、比賽染上統戰的色彩，我希望整個教育部還有包含體育署，我們所有的單位都要好好的來應對，次長，對這個的看法跟您現在可能要做的作法是怎樣？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想這個行為是非常不妥，完全非常不妥，至於他的相關權責還是在桃園市政府，國教署這邊也已經跟他們聯絡。"],["陳委員秀寳：再請你們持續追蹤好嗎？我再次強調，其實中國對臺灣存在很巨大的敵意，我們不能沒有憂患意識，這一點我希望我們整個的教育體系一定要有這樣子的概念。","現在進入今天學校飲食法的主題，我想請教這次學校飲食法增訂，許多委員的版本都有明文規定要增設營養師及飲食秘書，教育部會朝這個方向研議嗎？如果以委員的版本，你們有沒有預計增設多少人力、需要多少預算？"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實我們送院的部版裡面當然也有部版綜合大家考慮提出來的版本，這個詳細的部分，是不是就請署長來回答？"],["彭署長富源：剛剛委員垂詢到營養師跟有關的午秘，營養師的部分，如果按照目前我們的規劃是公辦公營的，大概要增加263人，將要增加的經費達到2億7,800萬；如果是午秘的部分，現行的午秘有41%是老師兼做，有59%是非老師處理，這整體有用減課的方式，也有很多其他的建議，這些建議加計起來可能會達到五億多。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以是2億加5億嗎？"],["彭署長富源：這個都在剛剛講的，增加的那個26億內啦！"],["陳委員秀寳：就是2億再加5億，如果以營養師跟飲食秘書來講的話？"],["彭署長富源：其中這兩項。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實我們根據這個新修正的財劃法，因為中央各單位已經預計要撥出去的將近30%的預算到地方政府，我們教育部在整個預算減少的情況下，你們有辦法負擔這些新增加的高額預算嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員的關心，如果按照專法草案各項的項目經費，除了剛才營養師的部分，可能需要2億7,878萬之外，像補助高級中等學校、經濟弱勢學生午餐所需經費，還需要增加四億左右；午餐秘書專職化所需的經費，以組長職來預估，可能要5億5,000萬；學校廚房硬體及設備器具經費的補助也會高達12億6,000萬；有關高級中等學校納入章Q補助，只是團膳的部分，也要1億7,600萬，所以我說這個最起碼、最少還會再增加26億7,300萬。"],["陳委員秀寳：以最少的版本來算，至少要增加26億以上。"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以整個補助，不包括餐費，就營養午餐的部分就高達100億7,384萬。"],["陳委員秀寳：針對這個專法，教育部在沒有辦法負擔的情況之下，你們預計將這些增加的預算跟地方政府協調，到底地方應該要負責多少？"],["張廖次長萬堅：財劃法現在的狀況就是覆議案沒有過，現在行政院還在做這個救濟，我們也希望比較確定之後……"],["陳委員秀寳：你們預計何時開始展開跟地方團體的對談跟溝通？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會儘快，署長可能有……"],["陳委員秀寳：你們規劃大概什麼時候開始？"],["彭署長富源：我們大概要等到財劃法確認之後，才比較好溝通，才有一個標的可以作為未來溝通的方向或項目。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以要等財劃法整個比較精確的釐清之後……"],["張廖次長萬堅：如果救濟成功，沒有減少的話，當然就繼續加碼。"],["陳委員秀寳：你們再來跟地方……因為我很希望你們儘快可以展開不管是跟教師、家長、學生團體、地方政府溝通，你們才能夠在把各方的意見都融合之後，儘快提出你們的版本。因為你有溝通過了，之後的推行才能夠順利。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：這個部分希望你們可以儘快地來做這些相關的後續。我這邊也要強調一下，我的版本裡面是透過學校提供的餐食讓孩子來認識食材，也推廣健康飲食的意識，希望結合臺灣在地的優質農產品及特色飲食文化，而且要強化在地食材跟人文歷史的連結，所以這個部分也希望教育部可以研議納入你們法案的方向，讓我們的學校飲食法可以落實食農教育的精神。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝委員的關心，我們來努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員的質詢，官員請回座，謝謝。","我們休息5分鐘。","休息（11時54分）","繼續開會（12時）"],["主席：好，接著我們繼續進行質詢。","請范雲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159461","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159461","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb07fa210bf886768d84aa23c349ee8e69360f1855e115a4ba46df6a493928834075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"11:39:39 - 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也一定多 大概四億級的有調整 大概接近3%左右沒有辦法 事實上整體因為公職的人員的專業佳績調整幅度是只有4%所以調的那個只有再增加3%嗎"},{"start":171.448,"end":196.841,"text":"大概有些是3%多一點有大概3到4%之間那就要問什麼時候調整所以現在簽下來大概時間大概回溯從今年1月1號開始回溯所以這個已經是確定的院長已經批示了真的很感謝也感謝我們的卓院長能夠看到我們的醫護人員尤其是學校校護有時候一個學校只有一個校護要照顧很多人"},{"start":197.745,"end":200.111,"text":"那所以也謝謝那謝謝人事長 謝謝好 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請那個部長董事長你好委員好面對現在常常共軍老台那這個情況好像越來越"},{"start":31.073,"end":41.942,"text":"國安基金現在操作的情況怎麼樣它的規模是多少需不需要再往上來增加基金的規模"},{"start":43.688,"end":63.317,"text":"國安基金根據國安基金的設置管理條例裡面它可運用的資金總額是五千億那其中兩千億是跟金融機構來借款另外借用政府的四大基金三千億那歷來我們的進場呢都是用這個借款的方式還沒有動用到四大基金"},{"start":64.332,"end":82.236,"text":"那五千億的規模夠不過五千億的規模當然我們知道目前因為在國安基金是八十九年成立的那個條例那時候規定那目前的台股的市值達到七十一點六兆是當時的九倍了然後外資的持股也佔了四成那對台股的這個狀況是越來越嚴重然後加上"},{"start":88.537,"end":108.304,"text":"國際的情勢的一個變化我們認為我們會一直持續的關注這個股市的一個動態然後來考量這個國安基金的一個目前的一個規模但是目前來說應該是還在這個運用的範圍裡面當年設置的時候股市不到一萬點啊不到一萬點現在股市已經兩萬點啊那"},{"start":114.827,"end":123.277,"text":"除非你認為台灣股市不具備挑戰三萬點的實力所以國安基金不需要那麼大啊"},{"start":124.872,"end":128.254,"text":"這個兩者應該沒有,因為我們剛剛有報告過了以今年的3月18號上市工資的總市值大概有71.6兆當然是比國安基金當時成立的時候已經有9倍之多了所以國安基金要不要5乘以9倍乘以9倍"},{"start":145.527,"end":170.56,"text":"那這個部分也涉及到條例的要修正那我們會持續的關注如果修正的話大概希望會調高到多少這個部分還需要這個省政的一個研議看就是要調高到多少那誰來研議那當然目前國安基金我們持續都是一直在關注那目前國安基金已經退場了嗎因為最近外資匯出很多"},{"start":174.497,"end":199.6,"text":"那我們看到台積電從最高是一股多少一千多少一千二一千一百三十五是不是好像那麼多啦,已經破一千塊了我們發現因為台積電逐漸變成美積電的時候我們的護國神山走山了"},{"start":201.212,"end":228.537,"text":"手三大家心裡很緊張啊部長你會不會緊張跟委員報告台積電就是台積電它不會成為美積電也不會成為日積電我們這個台積電本來就是一個大型的一個公司國際型的公司它其實像這個全球佈局是公司的一個策略我相信這個部分大家不要把它講成是美積電那護國神山依然是護國神山"},{"start":229.386,"end":256.724,"text":"那為什麼他突然在今年才說要投資美國以前不投資今年投資他準備到美國投資多少之前在亞利桑那已經投資是投資650億嘛那未來會投資1000億那我想一個公司他在對外對全球布局1000億美元那對外對國際的一個全球布局有他公司經營的一些策略川普說"},{"start":258.536,"end":280.903,"text":"要變成兩千億美元喔部長你有沒有統計過台積電它是護國神山最重要的基礎那半導體以台積電為主周邊的企業大概有多少家上市公司"},{"start":282.543,"end":311.669,"text":"這個部分有關所謂它周邊的產業的相關的生產鏈這個部分有多少公司我沒有做過統計那你研究一下好不好我研究一下那我想這個經濟部會研究因為它是一個中心當這個中心移開的時候原本可以對台灣資本支出就是投資在台灣的部分減少了減少了很多很多三兆"},{"start":312.864,"end":327.238,"text":"如果是兩千億美元的話資本支出本來原本六兆是要投資台灣的現在加上周邊的企業部長連根拔起"},{"start":330.936,"end":347.55,"text":"跟流台灣依然是台積電的一個政策它在台灣的一個投資還是會持續進行我請教部長那你有沒有算過就是台積電一年啊它對台灣稅收的貢獻是多少"},{"start":349.63,"end":370.545,"text":"你剛講得很好啊所有上市公司是71兆啊那我再問部長一句啊那台積電的市值是多少?你剛講得很好啊全部上市是71兆嘛那台積電的市值是多少?33條啦33條啦 不定"},{"start":379.178,"end":407.911,"text":"所以當他離開的時候影響是很大的我在這邊苦口婆心講是說大家不要輕忽啊因為很多我們銀行界的這個董事長總經理稍微挫在手上你想想看嘛這些錢如果不移到美國去三兆加三兆六兆放在銀行裡面多溫暖啊"},{"start":409.11,"end":436.697,"text":"去年所有的金融機構獲利的情況怎麼樣?去年的金融機構的獲利算是不錯是不錯喔?好那我們看看所有的今天的公股銀行在內基內控方面部長你有沒有自信說我們的內基內控因為都是公家的都是公務體系應該不會出問題吧?"},{"start":440.558,"end":462.066,"text":"根委員報告內積內控一直是各公股銀行非常重視的那財政部也在相關的會議裡面提醒大家不能鬆懈對於內積內控要強化而且因應外界的情勢變化應該要有更周全的一個機制結果不要鬆懈也沒有鬆懈他們不會鬆懈"},{"start":464.227,"end":487.337,"text":"那最近所有公股銀行裡面有沒有被金管會處罰的啊被金管會處罰的是有哪一個當然我們知道您提的大概應該就是台灣銀行的兩位行員跟詐團的一些的一些不法的一些做法你剛剛說你不會鬆懈啊不會鬆懈為什麼會被處罰"},{"start":488.696,"end":514.691,"text":"不會鬆懈但是有些行員他就是走相關的漏洞這也就是我們還是要加強控管的部分公家機關在民眾的心裡是一個堅而不破的信用之牆錢如果存在公股的金融體系台灣銀行"},{"start":516.246,"end":527.965,"text":"我還擔心說半夜被偷被盜裡面還有很多的詐騙集團那不是打破了長年以來民眾對台灣銀行的信心嗎"},{"start":529.292,"end":535.793,"text":"委員沒有裡面有很多詐騙集團台灣銀行裡面沒有很多什麼詐騙集團那為什麼會被處罰呢這兩個行員的個人行為那已經提起公訴了已經被起訴了然後也免職了那裡面內部的主管同仁也給予行政的懲處那對於金管會的一個裁罰我們也尊重那當然我們也把這個案例要告知所有的各銀行"},{"start":557.518,"end":581.513,"text":"要告訴他們,不可以有僥倖的心,法往恢恢,疏而不漏所以部長,準規罪無分,昨天之錯好像從來沒發生過沒有什麼傳過水無門的一句話也沒說,然後就過去了?不會啊部長,以前從來沒有公股銀行有發生這種重大的金融事件"},{"start":583.846,"end":608.043,"text":"這個部分我想我們一定還是會加強的跟各公股行鋪要宣導我相信他們內部也都做了許多的一個措施是因為管理階層薪水太少或者是說管理不當你看今天的所有公股銀行裡面很多人都是你看嘛一個職務然後就兼誰誰兼董事長"},{"start":610.216,"end":632.354,"text":"然後兼代理總經理這個代董再來還有這個誰兼董事長的然後誰兼多少還有董事長兼總經理的總經理兼董事長部長你這個人事不重要嗎"},{"start":634.022,"end":652.639,"text":"人事的部分當然是很重要什麼時候會有新的一波人事有一些下面的子公司或孫公司也許會由他們去兼那你意思說台灣中小企業的董事長總經理可以兼董事長就一直兼下去嗎不會"},{"start":654.414,"end":669.393,"text":"不會一日間你這個職務懸在那邊很久了你為什麼不充分的授權各司其職然後不要出現有漏洞的地方當然"},{"start":670.194,"end":683.305,"text":"本身我們的董總們都有他的權責在公司治理上他們是有他們的權責去處理沒有所謂的授權問題你總不能說財政部部長你又去兼負稅署署長去兼關務署署長"},{"start":687.165,"end":701.862,"text":"那個職務考量這個地方就有它的功能性吧當然部長什麼時候會有新一波的人事布達新一波的人事布達隨著台企營的董事長辭職以後後續會有一波會移動後續什麼時候後續這個時間應該不會太久會不會超過一年"},{"start":708.55,"end":733.575,"text":"不會超過一年不會超過一個月這個部分我想不會在太久的時候是不會超過一個禮拜還是一個月這個部分我想您不久以後就會知道好啦,我這邊提醒的就是說要栓緊各個螺絲是的那個你輕鬆愉快沒出事我們直訓也不用那麼辛苦啊"},{"start":735.278,"end":735.839,"text":"好 加油啦好 謝謝委員好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":923,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（11時31分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請財政部莊翠雲莊部長？"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["羅委員明才：莊部長你好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：面對共軍擾臺的情況好像越來越頻繁，國安基金現在操作的情況怎麼樣？它的規模是多少，需不需要再往上來增加基金的規模？"],["莊部長翠雲：根據國安基金設置管理條例，國安基金裡面可運用的資金總額是5,000億，其中2,000億是跟金融機構借款，另外借用政府的四大基金3,000億，歷來我們的進場都是用借款的方式，還沒有動用到四大基金。"],["羅委員明才：那5,000億的規模夠不夠？"],["莊部長翠雲：5,000億的規模，當然我們知道目前，因為國安基金是89年成立的，條例是那時候規定的，目前臺股的市值達到71.6兆，是當時的9倍了，當時的9倍，然後外資的持股也占了四成，對臺股的重要性越來越嚴重，加上國際情勢的變化，我們會一直持續地關注股市的動態，然後考量國安基金目前規模的適切性，但是目前來說，應該還在運用的範圍裡面。"],["羅委員明才：當年設置的時候，股市不到一萬點，現在股市已經兩萬點，除非你認為臺灣股市不具備挑戰三萬點的實力，所以國安基金不需要那麼大。"],["莊部長翠雲：這兩者應該沒有……我剛剛也報告過了，以今年的3月18號上市公司總市值大概有71.6兆，當然是比國安基金當時成立的時候，已經有9倍之多了，換言之當時大概是8兆……"],["羅委員明才：所以國安基金的規模要不要提高為5,000億乘以9倍？"],["莊部長翠雲：乘以9倍喔？這個部分因為也涉及到條例的修正，我們會持續的關注情勢的變化來做適當……"],["羅委員明才：如果修正的話，大概希望會調高到多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分還需要審慎的研議看要調高到多少的規模……"],["羅委員明才：那誰來研議？什麼時候開始研議？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們一直都持續在關注，目前國安基金已經退場了，上一次進場之後已經退場了。"],["羅委員明才：最近外資匯出很多，我們看到台積電從最高一股多少？一千多、一千二？1,135是不是？好像那麼多，已經破1,000塊了，我們發現台積電逐漸變成美積電的時候，我們的護國神山走山了，走山，大家心裡很緊張，部長，你會不會緊張？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，台積電就是台積電，它不會成為美積電，也不會成為日積電。我們台積電本來就是一個大型的、國際型的公司，它的全球布局是公司的一個策略，我相信這個部分大家不要把它講成是美積電，護國神山依然是護國神山。"],["羅委員明才：為什麼它突然在今年才說要投資美國？以前不投資，今年投資，它準備到美國投資多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：之前在亞利桑那已經投資了650億，未來會投資1,000億，那我想一個公司，它在對外，對全球布……"],["羅委員明才：1,000億是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：1,000億美元。對外對國際的全球布局，有它公司經營的一些策略，不過我想……"],["羅委員明才：川普說要變成2,000億啊！美元喔，部長，你有沒有統計過，台積電是護國神山最重要的基礎，半導體以台積電為主周邊的企業，大概有多少家上市公司？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關所謂它周邊相關產業的生產鏈這部分有多少公司，我們沒有做過統計，但是……"],["羅委員明才：那你研究一下，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：我研究一下，但我想這個經濟部會研究。"],["羅委員明才：因為它是中心，當這個中心移開的時候，原本在臺灣的資本支出，就是投資在臺灣的部分就減少了很多很多。1,000億美元就是3兆，如果是2,000億美元的話，本來原本6兆是要投資臺灣的資本支出，現在加上周邊的企業，部長，連根拔起耶！那我問你，我請教你……"],["莊部長翠雲：根留臺灣依然是台積電的一個政策，它在臺灣的投資還是會持續進行。"],["羅委員明才：我請教部長，你有沒有算過，台積電一年對臺灣稅收的貢獻是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們可能……"],["羅委員明才：你剛剛講得很好，所有上市公司的總市值是71兆，我再問部長一句，那台積電的市值是多少？你剛剛講得很好，全部上市是71兆，那台積電的市值是多少？33兆啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再查一下。是。"],["羅委員明才：33兆啦，部長，所以當他離開的時候，影響是很大的。我在這邊苦口婆心的講是希望大家不要輕忽，因為很多我們銀行界的董事長、總經理「小可仔掣咧等」（有點害怕的等待著）。你想想看，這些錢如果不移到美國去，3兆加3兆共6兆，放在銀行裡面多溫暖啊！去年所有金融機構獲利的情況怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：去年金融機構的獲利算是不錯。"],["羅委員明才：是不錯？好，那我們看看今天所有的公股銀行，在內稽內控方面，部長，你對我們的內稽內控有沒有自信？因為都是公家的、都是公務體系嘛，應該不會出問題吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，內稽內控一直是各公股銀行非常重視的，財政部也一再在相關的會議裡面提醒大家不能鬆懈，對於內稽內控要強化，而且因應外界的情勢變化，應該要有更周全的一個機制。"],["羅委員明才：結果不要鬆懈，有沒有鬆懈？"],["莊部長翠雲：他們不會鬆懈。"],["羅委員明才：不會鬆懈？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["羅委員明才：最近所有公股銀行裡面有沒有被金管會處罰的？"],["莊部長翠雲：被金管會處罰的是有。"],["羅委員明才：哪一個？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然我們知道您提的大概應該就是臺灣銀行的兩位行員跟詐團的一些不法作法。"],["羅委員明才：部長，你剛剛說你不會鬆懈啊，不會鬆懈為什麼會被處罰？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會鬆懈，但是有些行員就是走相關的漏洞，這也就是我們還是要加強控管的部分。"],["羅委員明才：公家機關在民眾的心裡是一個堅而不破的信用之牆，錢如果存在公股的金融體系當中的臺灣銀行，我還擔心半夜被偷、被盜，裡面還有很多的詐騙集團，那不是打破了長年以來民眾對臺灣銀行的信心嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，沒有裡面有很多詐騙集團，臺灣銀行裡面沒有很多什麼詐騙集團。"],["羅委員明才：那為什麼會被處罰呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是這兩個行員的個人行為，已經提起公訴了，已經被起訴了，然後也免職了，裡面內部的主管同仁也給予行政的懲處，對於金管會的一個裁罰，我們也尊重，當然我們也把這個案例告知所有各銀行，告訴他們不可以有僥倖的心，法網恢恢，疏而不漏。"],["羅委員明才：部長，船過水無痕，昨天之錯，好像從來沒發生過。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有什麼船過水無痕。"],["羅委員明才：一句話也沒說，然後就過去了。"],["莊部長翠雲：不會啊！我剛剛說我們都有處理，都做了。"],["羅委員明才：部長，以前從來沒有公股銀行發生這種重大的金融事件欸！"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我想我們一定還是會加強跟各公股行庫宣導，我相信他們內部也都做了許多的措施。"],["羅委員明才：是因為管理階層薪水太少？或者是說管理不當？你看今天的所有公股銀行裡面，很多人都是一個職務，然後就誰、誰兼董事長，或兼代理總經理、代董，再來，還有誰兼董事長的，然後誰兼多少，還有董事長兼總經理的、總經理兼董事長，部長，你這個人事不重要嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：人事的部分當然是很重要。"],["羅委員明才：什麼時候會有新的一波人事派令？"],["莊部長翠雲：有一些下面的子公司或孫公司也許會由他們去兼。"],["羅委員明才：你的意思是說，臺灣中小企銀的總經理可以兼董事長，就一直兼下去嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會一直兼啊！當然會有……"],["羅委員明才：這個職務懸在那邊很久了。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有……"],["羅委員明才：你為什麼不充分的授權，各司其職，然後不要出現有漏洞的地方？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然我們的董總們都有他的權責。"],["羅委員明才：這個就很簡單……"],["莊部長翠雲：在公司治理上，他們是有他們的權責去做處理。"],["羅委員明才：這是很簡單的概念……"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有所謂的授權問題。"],["羅委員明才：總不能說財政部部長又去兼賦稅署署長、兼關務署署長，那個職務考量就有其功能性嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：當然、當然。"],["羅委員明才：部長，什麼時候會有新一波的人事布達？"],["莊部長翠雲：關於新一波的人事布達，隨著臺企銀的董事長辭職以後，後續會有一波異動。"],["羅委員明才：後續什麼時候？"],["莊部長翠雲：後續這個時間應該不會太久。"],["羅委員明才：會不會超過一年？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會超過一年。"],["羅委員明才：會不會超過一個月？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我想不會太久。"],["羅委員明才：是不會超過一個禮拜還是一個月？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我想您不久以後就會知道。"],["羅委員明才：好啦，我在這邊提醒的就是說要拴緊各個螺絲。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["羅委員明才：你輕鬆愉快沒出事，我們質詢也不用那麼辛苦啊，加油啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席（李委員坤城代）：謝謝羅明才委員。接下來我們請賴惠員召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159459","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159459","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb03a4b15fbdfad4c3b01b4bb3d6676f3fd60f1855e115a4ba477c192756c22988b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"11:32:11 - 11:43:21","影片長度":"00:11:10","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T11:32:11+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T11:43:21+08:00","duration":670,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.2415937500000003,"end":5.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.945343750000001,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.640968750000003,"end":19.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.12909375,"end":23.622218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.925968750000003,"end":30.945968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.777843750000002,"end":27.722843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.85346875,"end":29.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.882843750000003,"end":31.047218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.047218750000003,"end":45.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.564718750000004,"end":41.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.38721875,"end":43.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.31096875,"end":47.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.62284375,"end":60.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.60096875,"end":53.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.945968750000006,"end":58.688468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.74721875,"end":103.05284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.45784375000001,"end":104.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.40284375,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.29659375000001,"end":109.53284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.92096875,"end":116.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.72159375000001,"end":142.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.16346875,"end":124.29846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.39971875,"end":124.51784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.82721875000001,"end":149.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.88971875000001,"end":155.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.01596875,"end":150.31971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.20096875000002,"end":170.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.58659375000002,"end":215.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.13346875000002,"end":208.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.50784375,"end":276.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.64909375,"end":257.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.17346875000004,"end":277.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.67534375,"end":292.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.69409375000004,"end":328.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.26659375,"end":302.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.00909375000003,"end":356.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.41409375,"end":363.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.91909375,"end":367.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.12096875000003,"end":427.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.12034375,"end":505.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.53034375000004,"end":450.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.04471875,"end":517.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.89096875,"end":528.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.37471875,"end":530.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.60659375,"end":542.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.7240937500001,"end":532.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.51159375,"end":547.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.9497187500001,"end":549.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.45159375,"end":559.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.61534375,"end":554.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.31096875,"end":557.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.84659375,"end":573.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.0678437500001,"end":575.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.20284375,"end":575.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.29971875,"end":593.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.69784375,"end":604.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.44034375,"end":593.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.98284375,"end":636.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.68784375,"end":630.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.5222187500001,"end":641.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.3828437500001,"end":655.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.8272187499999,"end":656.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.45159375,"end":666.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.0659687500001,"end":667.2178437500002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有請次長有請次長被質詢 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝主席 謝謝委員剛剛一進來就被我們主席點名了那我看到主席這個相當生氣那在這裡我想問一下獎學金的部分應該不是只有教育部能提供對吧"},{"start":25.623,"end":50.181,"text":"應該是有各類的啦剛才提過說像僑委會啦外交部啦或者是中研院國科會我去訪問外國的時候其實也會遇到台灣的一些留學生他們是譬如說他們是政府的官員那他們有一些計畫他們前往那邊去做學習學術的交流或一年有各種研習他們可能統稱獎學金所以我不清楚這個新聞事件上所講的留學生是哪一類"},{"start":52.483,"end":68.084,"text":"因為委員非常關心我們一定會再繼續因為委員的指責我們也很難過啦所以說我們可以繼續做這個了解我沒有指責教育部啊對我們沒有指責教育部我們只是在想說這個來源我們要搞清楚不然其實真的罵錯人了"},{"start":68.464,"end":94.293,"text":"好不好好那這個其實也是原po啊他在底下有人在問了他說請問很好奇喔這個關於這一個部會的這個獎學金到底是哪一個單位負責那他也提出了因為中研院也把老師的名字也寫出來囉好那我想呢在這個中研院114年的預算當中的業務費喔其中的業務費其實也包含學術交流的部分"},{"start":94.893,"end":114.525,"text":"那當然也包含參與學術研討的相關的經費那這個部分呢有沒有被刪 有沒有被砍 有沒有被動教育部知道嗎我想就按照剛才委員關心我們如果已經是有名有姓有單位我們會去了解關係沒關係我來回答齁在中研院的部分呢其實我們在立法院已經凍結了11.62億"},{"start":116.846,"end":138.019,"text":"就是關於中研院的業務費那我剛剛提到了這業務的範圍包含學術交流也包含參與學術的研討相關的事件那有可能就跟這一位沒有辦法成行的同學博士生有相關了那另外呢在整個所有的經費呢也是被砍了大概將近15%15%大概就是3300萬"},{"start":143.203,"end":156.481,"text":"所以其實不是只有劍指教育部就沒事因為還有很多的部會我在這裡也做一個說明我們剛才也是說教育部沒有但是其他的單位到底有沒有我們也必須去了解不然我們背上好多劍好多刀"},{"start":158.283,"end":177.068,"text":"好那再來因為今天剛好次長來除了剛剛我們大家都關心的營養午餐以外我先來講一下關於上一個會期應該是說上上個會期三月的時候因為凱凱案昨天他們開了第四度的這個準備的程序庭"},{"start":177.728,"end":204.359,"text":"那這第四度的程序準備庭其實我也到場的去聆聽喔那主要就是他們在接著下來之後的審判庭期喔審判的這個期日呢來做整個所有的程序的一個報告喔那凱凱案當初為什麼我會這麼的關心是因為他的隸屬的主管機關之一當時還沒改例在九月初改例之前其中最大的就是我們的"},{"start":205.299,"end":219.946,"text":"教育部是我們他的主管機關那針對這個凱凱案呢從頭到尾其實跟教育部相關我質詢了大概有八次即便在兒福聯盟改例到衛福部"},{"start":220.626,"end":236.135,"text":"在10月4號的總質詢當中我也在大院針對兒福聯盟來做質詢那我想當初其實我們的建議要部長他也有同意也答應我給我一個肯定的答案"},{"start":236.835,"end":255.751,"text":"就是在凱凱案告一個段落之後他會來再回過頭來追責所謂的兒福聯盟在內部控管的缺失跟他們整個所有的監察的系統的一個落差這個部分還有他們在內部的消息有沒有疏失來做一個懲處"},{"start":257.012,"end":274.551,"text":"我想這個部分我還是需要再次在今天的這個質詢我希望能夠得到這個次長您的同意然後您的認可我們繼續雖然教育部現在已經不是兒福聯盟的主管機關但是我們還是希望能夠繼續就責可以嗎可以沒有問題"},{"start":277.774,"end":291.967,"text":"我們會等這個司法判決他會有一些犯罪事實的這個判決結果的認定會書寫那我們會有更清楚的一個究責的對象那我們行政機關是一體嘛我們到時候會一起來努力"},{"start":292.748,"end":312.152,"text":"尤其是我們昨天其實我跟林月琴委員我們兩個人在追凱凱案的這個時間跟次數應該算是全院最多的但是我們沒有站在人群面前去討拍去蹭這個聲量那尤其是當初3月14號3月18號的時候未還的委員會"},{"start":316.974,"end":328.172,"text":"召開了他們的這個會議針對凱凱案的時候其實當時他們的主席還是兒福聯盟的高層董事王玉敏"},{"start":329.079,"end":351.673,"text":"那這個部分其實他當初沒有迴避繼續擔任主席而且還說他也是3月11號聽到媒體揭露他才知道凱凱案的以兒福聯盟這麼龐大的慈善巨獸居然他是董事他是高層怎麼會在孩子在2023年12月24號的平安夜已經離開了"},{"start":356.576,"end":367.277,"text":"他到三月份還是聽媒體才知道的這個部分我個人非常的不苟同我也非常的不認同好 我們來進入今天的營養午餐的部分"},{"start":369.158,"end":385.268,"text":"我想學校的營養午餐攸關學生的健康是非常重要的但是營養午餐的亂象其實也頗多像前一陣子我們看到就是有學校的營養午餐就是擠所謂的應該銀絲捲光一顆銀絲捲可以擠出大概半碗油等等然後再來關於所謂的營養午餐的這樣子的一個亂象其實還是有一些新聞頻傳但是在我們"},{"start":399.016,"end":426.662,"text":"知道從這個營養午餐依照地方制度法其實事權在地方然後另外呢在過去其實我們中央有一些補助但是今年我想要問次長最重要的一件事情是我們在11月之後發生了才化法請問對我們的營養午餐不管是地方的一些營養午餐的補助請問會不會有重大的影響"},{"start":427.442,"end":442.902,"text":"當然是會有啦所以說我們就想說其實因為財化法的這樣的修其實對於這個像國民教育階段需要中央大量補助的這些國教補助款那過去雖然在審查的過程裡面也說一般補助款"},{"start":443.402,"end":463.547,"text":"要不能減少但事實上我們有很多地方的補助是透過計畫來達成政策的目的譬如說我們希望孩子吃得好吃得安全那吃得營養那當然像張Q的補助從106年到現在上路已經補助到一年38億像這個弱勢孩童要讓他吃得飽"},{"start":464.267,"end":492.307,"text":"那要協助地方政府去補助他們那也從91年到現在也陸續補助的到每年21億像這個廚房設備不足偏向的地方那校長常常開著發財車到地方到山下採購一個禮拜像這樣子的一個新聞我們都看到了那這幾年來陸續也在委員的關心下我們編列的經費中央廚房每年也都到達到了15億所以我說每年其實我們不算那個餐費的補助"},{"start":492.907,"end":515.348,"text":"光是這方面補助其實已經高達74億了那財化法的衝擊對國教補助款的影響到底有多大我想我們也在做內部的謹慎評估但是對於修法會再增加負擔跟補助的部分我們是真的覺得不跟地方政府攤開來談那事實上修的再怎麼樣的法好好的法我們怎麼樣來落實會變成將來一個"},{"start":518.03,"end":534.276,"text":"我們是不希望看到中央地方在互推我想讓孩子吃得好我剛才也說過那是一個甜蜜的負擔那中央跟地方一定要合作一定要來談所以中央跟地方目前其實是還沒有達到對 不能說我們錢沒了錢被拿走了三成28%結果地方增加的"},{"start":534.756,"end":561.341,"text":"那我們又要去負擔又沒有那個能力然後地方又說他們沒辦法接手那這樣子就真的就是不是一件我們樂見看到的尤其是我們看到有很多的委員提案也包括我自己其實我也特別對委員提案非常肯定就是從40班至少有一個營養師我們希望能夠往下就是再擴增比方說可能20班就至少要增加一位這個營養師原額的配置也因為採劃法其實營養師陸續這幾年都有在增加"},{"start":561.681,"end":563.363,"text":"所以其實光是我們的財化法到目前為止其實我們不知道對所謂的這個營養午餐它會有多重大的一個影響"},{"start":583.644,"end":604.079,"text":"那目前有沒有一個時程是說我們跟地方要怎麼樣來大家把事權講好到底是要五五分呢還是要三七分還是要八二分我想委員知道在這樣氣氛下教育部我們會很強力的來捍衛這個預算但是要跟地方談我剛才提過了有些縣市對於他所獲配的財源"},{"start":605.1,"end":629.952,"text":"他不見得很滿意那中央說我們要收回這個補助款希望由地方負擔他也不會那麼容易答應我舉個例子嘛台南台南現在國立高中他還是我們國立的那其他的六都裡面大概有四都已經收回了那台南會願意嗎那台南不願意我們怎麼辦那像台北市他錢比較多他或許他會願意比較好談那新北會願意嗎有些偏鄉的補助所以這個我們"},{"start":631.312,"end":654.807,"text":"要盡速來溝通啦那也希望才能把這個影響能夠把影響降到最低啦因為孩子其實在學校的營養其實真的靠營養五成現在行政委員會做憲法就緝嘛剛才那個委員已經提過說復育已經過了那現在行政就緝如何我們當然如果說真的對我們裁員的影響不大我們當然不樂見還要透過跟地方協商我們會很大方的補助啦就像過去這幾年一樣好"},{"start":656.548,"end":669.546,"text":"那我們希望能夠就是因為才化法的關係然後在營養午餐的部分我們其實不打折還能夠給孩子更安全然後給家長也放心好嗎謝謝委員的關心謝謝市長好謝謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":648,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（11時32分）主席早安。有請次長。"],["主席：有請次長備詢，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝主席，委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：剛剛一進來就被我們主席點名，我看到主席相當生氣，在這裡我想問獎學金的部分，應該不是只有教育部能提供，對吧？"],["張廖次長萬堅：應該是有各類的，剛剛提過像是僑委會。"],["郭委員昱晴：僑委會。"],["張廖次長萬堅：外交部。"],["郭委員昱晴：中研院、國科會。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對、對，我去訪問外國的時候也會遇到臺灣的一些留學生，譬如他們是政府的官員。"],["郭委員昱晴：是。"],["張廖次長萬堅：他們有一些計畫前往那邊去做學習。"],["郭委員昱晴：學術的交流。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對、對，有時候半年或一年，有各種研習。"],["郭委員昱晴：他們可能統稱獎學金。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對、對、對。所以我不清楚這個新聞事件上所講的留學生是哪一類……"],["郭委員昱晴：其實我們有答案。"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為委員非常關心，我們一定會再繼續……"],["郭委員昱晴：是、是。"],["張廖次長萬堅：因為委員的指責，我們也很難過啦！"],["郭委員昱晴：沒有、沒有。"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以繼續去做了解。"],["郭委員昱晴：我沒有指責教育部啊！只是在想這個來源，我們要搞清楚。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["郭委員昱晴：不然其實真的罵錯人了，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["郭委員昱晴：這個其實也是原po文，它底下有人在問了，他說：請問很好奇，關於部會的獎學金到底是哪一個單位負責？他也提出，因為中研院也把老師的名字寫出來囉！我想中研院114年預算其中的業務費，也包含學術交流的部分，當然也包含參與學術研討的相關經費，這個部分有沒有被刪、有沒有被砍、有沒有被凍，教育部知道嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：按照剛剛委員的關心，如果已經是有名、有姓、有單位，我們會去了解。"],["郭委員昱晴：沒關係，我來回答。中研院的部分，在立法院已經凍結11.62億，就是關於中研院的業務費，我剛剛提到這個業務的範圍包含學術交流。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：也包含參與學術研討相關的事件，有可能就跟這位沒有辦法成行的同學──博士生有相關。另外，在整個所有的經費也是被砍了將近15%，15%大概就是3,300萬，所以不是只有劍指教育部就沒事，因為還有很多的部會，我在這裡也做一個說明。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們剛剛也是說教育部沒有，但其他的單位到底有沒有，我們……"],["郭委員昱晴：沒錯。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們也必須去做了解。"],["郭委員昱晴：是、是、是。不然我們背上好多箭、好多刀。再來，因為今天剛好次長來，除了剛剛大家都關心的營養午餐以外，我先來講關於上一個會期，應該是說上上個會期3月的時候，因為剴剴案昨天開了第四度的程序準備庭，其實我也到場去聆聽，主要是接下來之後的審判庭期，審判的期日來做整個所有程序的報告。剴剴案當初為什麼我會這麼的關心，是因為它的隸屬主管機關之一，當時在9月初還沒改立之前，其中最大的就是教育部是它的主管機關，針對剴剴案從頭到尾跟教育部相關的，我質詢了大概有8次，即便在兒福聯盟改立到衛福部，在10月4號的總質詢，我也在大院針對兒福聯盟來做質詢，當初我們的鄭英耀部長也有同意、也答應給我一個肯定的答案，就是在剴剴案告一個段落之後，他會再回過頭來追責兒福聯盟在內部控管的缺失跟所有監察系統的落差，還有他們在內部的消息有沒有疏失，來做一個懲處。"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：這個部分還是需要再次在今天的質詢，我希望能夠得到次長您的同意、您的認可，雖然教育部現在已經不是兒福聯盟的主管機關，但是我們還是希望能夠繼續究責，可以嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：可以，沒有問題。我們會等司法判決，它會有一些犯罪事實的判決結果的，認定會書寫，我們就有更清楚的究責對象，行政機關是一體的，到時候會一起來努力。"],["郭委員昱晴：尤其是昨天我跟林月琴委員，我們兩個人在追剴剴案的時間跟次數，應該算是全院最多的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我們非常敬佩委員的關心。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是我們沒有站在人群面前去討拍、去蹭聲量，尤其是當初3月14號、3月18號，衛環委員會召開會議針對剴剴案的時候，當時他們的主席還是兒福聯盟的高層董事王育敏，其實這個部分當初他沒有迴避繼續擔任主席，而且還說他也是3月11號聽到媒體揭露才知道剴剴案，以兒福聯盟這麼龐大的慈善巨獸，他是董事、他是高層，怎麼會在2023年12月24號平安夜孩子已經離開了，他到3月份還是聽到媒體才知道的。這個部分我個人非常的不苟同、我也非常的不認同。","好，我們來進入今天營養午餐的部分，我想學校的營養午餐攸關學生的健康是非常重要的，但是營養午餐的亂象其實也頗多，像前一陣子我們看到有學校的營養午餐，像是擠銀絲卷，光一顆銀絲卷就可以擠出大概半碗油等等。再來，關於營養午餐這樣的亂象，還是有一些新聞頻傳，但是我們知道營養午餐依照地方制度法，其實事權在地方。另外，在過去其實中央有一些補助，但是今年我想要問次長最重要的一件事情，我們在11月之後發生了財劃法，請問這對我們的營養午餐，不管是地方的一些營養午餐補助，請問會不會有重大的影響？"],["張廖次長萬堅：當然是會有啦！所以我們就在想因為財劃法這樣的修，對於像國民教育階段，需要中央大量補助的這些國教補助款，過去雖然在審查的過程裡面有說一般補助款不能減少，但事實上，我們有很多地方的補助是透過計畫來達成政策的目的。"],["郭委員昱晴：是。"],["張廖次長萬堅：譬如我們希望孩子吃得好、吃得安全、吃得營養，當然像章Q的補助，從106年上路到現在，已經補助到一年38億。像弱勢孩童要讓他吃得飽，那要協助地方政府去補助他們，從91年到現在也陸續補助到每年21億。像廚房設備不足，偏鄉的地方校長常常要開著發財車到山下採購一個禮拜，像這樣子的新聞，我們都看到了，那這幾年來，陸續也在委員的關心下，我們編列的經費，中央廚房每年也都達到了15億，所以每年我們不算餐費的補助，光是這方面的補助其實已經高達74億。","那財劃法的衝擊對國教補助款的影響到底有多大？我想我們也在做內部的謹慎評估，但是對於修法會再增加負擔跟補助的部分，我們是真的覺得不跟地方政府攤開來談，事實上修了再怎麼樣好的法，我們怎麼樣來落實，會變成將來一個……我們是不希望看到中央地方在互推，我想讓孩子吃得好，我剛才說過那是一個甜蜜的負擔，中央跟地方一定要合作、一定要來談，不能說……"],["郭委員昱晴：所以中央跟地方目前其實是還沒有達到共識？"],["張廖次長萬堅：不能說我們錢沒了，錢被拿走了三成、28%，結果地方增加了，我們又要去負擔，又沒有那個能力，然後地方又說他們沒辦法接手，這樣子就真的不是我們樂見的。"],["郭委員昱晴：尤其是我們看到有很多的委員提案，也包括我自己，其實我也特別從……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們都對委員的提案非常肯定。"],["郭委員昱晴：沒錯，就是從40班至少有一個營養師，我們希望能夠往下就是再擴增，比方說可能20班就至少要增加一位營養師員額的配置，也因為財劃法……"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實營養師陸續這幾年都有在增加，尤其偏鄉或者有些地方需要，其實我們每年陸續透過一般補助款，或者透過計畫都在增加，補了80%，幾乎已經達到了。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以光是我們的財劃法到目前為止，其實我們不知道對所謂的營養午餐會有多重大的影響，目前有沒有一個時程是說我們跟地方要怎麼樣來大家把事權講好，到底是要五五分，還是要三七分，還是要八二分？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想委員也知道，在這樣的氣氛下，教育部我們會很強力的來捍衛這個預算，但是要跟地方談，我剛才提過了，有些縣市對於它所獲配的財源，它不見得很滿意，中央說我們要收回這個補助款，希望由地方負擔，它也不會那麼容易答應，我舉個例子，臺南現在的國立高中還是我們國立的，其他的六都裡面大概有四都已經收回了，臺南會願意嗎？臺南不願意，我們怎麼辦？像臺北市錢比較多，或許它會願意，比較好談，那新北會願意嗎？有些偏鄉的補助，所以這個我們要儘速來溝通，也希望財劃法的影響能夠……"],["郭委員昱晴：把影響降到最低啦！"],["張廖次長萬堅：明確一點，因為現在……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為孩子在學校的營養，其實真的是靠營養午餐。"],["張廖次長萬堅：現在行政院也在做憲法救濟，剛才委員已經提過說覆議已經過了，那行政救濟如何，如果真的對我們財源的影響不大，我們當然不樂見還要透過跟地方協商，我們會很大方的就補助啦！就像過去這幾年一樣。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，那我們希望能夠，就是因為財劃法的關係，然後在營養午餐的部分，我們其實不打折，還能夠給孩子更安全，然後給家長也放心，好嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員的關心。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝次長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員質詢，官員請回座。","接著請陳秀寳委員繼續質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159458","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159458","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb07d48f507dec7365056c3f89dc79e7a2560f1855e115a4ba4e339ddae18a2dfb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"11:34:09 - 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我們請郭部長"},{"start":19.321,"end":44.982,"text":"委員好 部長美國的川普總統他在競選的時候他就已經主張要加重關稅來消除美國對各個國家的貿易的這個逆差他在上任之後的話他也馬上兌現了他的政見加徵了出口到美國的鋼鋁製品關稅到25%他也預告了4月份要來實施對等的關稅"},{"start":46.303,"end":48.065,"text":"增加這個關稅這個動作本席是非常的擔心那我們看到我們台灣2024年對美國出口將近1163億美元那美國進口到我們台灣的是424億美元那我們國家是在"},{"start":64.879,"end":93.664,"text":"这个美国第六大的这个贸易这个逆差的国家那我们出口到美国的大部分也都是这个机械的用具跟电子的零件那经济部应该对我们国内的相关的产业对这个被征收关税的问题你有没有相对应的这个应对的方式是报告委员我们都有各种不同的这个情境的模拟然后提出因应的对策那刚才你所这个垂询的这部分呢"},{"start":94.204,"end":116.907,"text":"大概740億左右的這個出鈔呢大部分其中有七成是屬於伺服器是屬於伺服器的部分那我們會針對我們出鈔的部分然後來訪談所有的這個業者那我們跟業者共同討論如何來因應這樣子如果萬一關稅被調整的話"},{"start":117.745,"end":133.926,"text":"我們能會得到多少的這個衝擊跟傷害那報告委員我想所有的剛才你在上面所列舉的這些業者我們都談過我們都有談過那建立各種不同的情境因為美國會跟我們談什麼樣的內容"},{"start":136.414,"end":143.236,"text":"我們沒有辦法了解但是我們可以去推論我們還沒有談我們會去推論那我們主談不是經濟部談我們談的是我們的這個談判辦公室在談是因為部長你特別說你會協助廠商以往這個美國那我們是擔心"},{"start":156.479,"end":185.899,"text":"這些產業包括像台積電他到美國去投資上下游的整個產業也都會為了成本問題而到美國去那你要協助這些產業到美國那整個我們台灣的就業市場不就會下降了嗎不會報告委員我想這個地方大家應該是可以用比較科學的來討論這個數大就分支數大就分支他今天到美國去特別像你剛才所指導的這個台積電這件事情"},{"start":186.899,"end":212.975,"text":"台積電是非常大它是一個世界市場的公司而且它是一個所以大家可能比較了解就是因為大所以上下游的產業才會跟著它走上下游的產業它也要看它的成本能不能夠符合那成本不能夠符合幾乎很難移動我要跟委員報告就我專業的角度跟我的經驗來跟您報告的話我可以分享給你就是說"},{"start":214.232,"end":234.772,"text":"供應鏈的部分大概是10倍的量對於這個台積電使用量的10倍所以我今天賣給台積電譬如說假設矽晶圓矽晶圓台積電大概一個月用兩萬片一條線如果說部長你講到這個問題的話本席要提醒你"},{"start":235.353,"end":237.394,"text":"剛剛有講到說我們出口到美國是1163億的美元嘛那但是我們看到我們在這個所有我們晶片或者半導體的設備出口到美國大概佔有83.51億的美元在我們出口值上只是不到5%"},{"start":252.68,"end":272.728,"text":"不到我怕我們被美國要增加這個關稅我們就被嚇到了馬上就跑到美國去設廠在這種情形之下想請教部長就是說那是不是說我們台積電到美國之後的話我們就有這個當籌碼來幫忙所有我們其他產業到出口到美國可以免備加徵關稅的這個籌碼是不是這樣子"},{"start":275.42,"end":302.656,"text":"這個部分我想報告委員這個是綜合的考量我相信台積電會幫助它的供應鏈來談出一個比較好的條件畢竟打它關稅那對台積電的成本就增加了那就更沒有競爭力了所以這個不符合企業國際化的這樣的一個要求我要跟委員報告的就是說台積電到美國去"},{"start":303.955,"end":328.215,"text":"絕對不是受到美國 他一定是受到美國客戶的需求客到美國客戶的需求因為他是有客戶的需求 可是部長你不要忘了國際企業的創造只有兩個我們知道都要創造走入國際化但是人才外流是我們擔心的因為他現在宣布了說要到美國研發中心當然跟我們台灣的研發中心是有區隔的"},{"start":328.755,"end":345.801,"text":"一個是那個先進的製程一個是屬於整個產能產量的製造但是兩個研發中心的人才在那邊一起的時候你要知道說他會不會超前了我們的技術或者我們技術會流到美國去這個都是我們關係的問題你是不是給我一點時間跟你說明"},{"start":348.542,"end":364.438,"text":"美國的研究大概是做這個基本的研究包括材料 包括用什麼樣的設備來生產這個是美國的同仁他們比較喜歡做的事情所以美國的大學 美國的研究所都是在做這個所謂Research"},{"start":366.131,"end":392.772,"text":"對這個工作但是台積電最厲害在台灣的有9000人的那個是做develop可是他也說他要肩負著開創新的技術啊對但是那個技術啊要能夠成為生產他要能夠發展出來這要量產就好像我今天在家裡我只能做一點的這個這個譬如說10件但是我在工廠生產的就是1萬件"},{"start":394.093,"end":420.646,"text":"有這個技術要發展成能夠製造部長你要了解這些都是我們擔心的你要如何讓國人能夠增強信心不會因為台積電到美國去投資之後我們大家信心會大減要繼續壯大我們的護國神山台積電台積電是它的技術就是到哪裡大概別人很難接受的很難接收的"},{"start":421.584,"end":448.352,"text":"可是研發中心在美國設之後這是我們擔心的它那個是在線上我這個線上已經成熟了我要讓它良率因為半導體注重的是良率可是我們就怕超前了啦這個在研發中心在美國之後他們的各項技術就會超前我們台灣的研發中心報告委員台積電在座剛剛跟我講研究跟發展的工程師有一萬多位"},{"start":450.12,"end":464.848,"text":"所以這個是不可能他去的是一千位是這個所謂製程商我在生產上面的工程師如何生產的成本更低如何的效益更好部長你要有信心那也希望能夠讓我們的護國神山繼續壯大好不好是好謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":676,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（11時34分）謝謝主席，我們請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，美國的川普總統在競選的時候，他就已經主張要加重關稅，來消除美國對各個國家的貿易逆差，他在上任之後也馬上兌現了他的政見，加徵了出口到美國的鋼鋁製品的關稅到25%，他也預告了4月份要來實施對等的關稅。對於美國增加關稅這個動作，本席是非常的擔心。我們看到2024年臺灣對美國的出口值將近1,163億美元，臺灣對美國的進口值則是424億美元，我們國家是美國第六大的貿易逆差國，我們出口到美國的產品大部分也都是機械用具跟電子零件，經濟部對於我們國內相關產業將被增加關稅的問題，你有沒有相對應的應對方案？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們都有各種不同情境的模擬，然後提出因應的對策。剛才你所垂詢的這個部分，大概740億左右的出超，其中有七成是屬於伺服器的部分，我們會針對我們出超的部分來訪談所有的業者，我們跟業者共同討論如何因應這樣的衝擊，如果關稅被調整的話，我們會受到多少的衝擊跟傷害。報告委員，剛才你在上面所列舉的這些業者，我們都有談過，並且也建立了各種不同的情境，因為美國會跟我們談什麼樣的內容，我們沒有辦法了解……"],["呂委員玉玲：沒有實質的進展？"],["郭部長智輝：但是我們可以去推論……"],["呂委員玉玲：都還沒有談？"],["郭部長智輝：我們還沒有談，但我們會去推論，而且我國的主談不是經濟部，是我們的談判辦公室負責在談的。"],["呂委員玉玲：因為部長特別有說到，你會協助廠商移往美國，我們是擔心，這些產業包括像台積電，它到美國去投資，上下游的整個產業也都會為了成本問題而到美國去，如果你要協助這些產業到美國，那整個臺灣的就業市場不就會下降了嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不會，報告委員，我想這個地方大家應該是可以用比較科學的方式來討論，因為樹大就要分枝。它今天到美國去，特別像你剛才所指導的台積電這件事情，台積電是非常大的，它是一個世界市場的公司，而且它是一個，就是大家可能比較了解……"],["呂委員玉玲：就是因為大，所以上下游的產業才會跟著它走啊。"],["郭部長智輝：上下游的產業，也要看它的成本能不能夠符合，如果成本不能夠符合，幾乎很難移動。我要跟委員報告，就我專業的角度跟我的經驗來跟您報告的話，我可以分享給你，就是供應鏈的部分大概是十倍的量，對於台積電使用量的十倍。"],["呂委員玉玲：是。"],["郭部長智輝：所以今天賣給台積電的，譬如說矽晶圓，台積電大概一個月用2萬片，它一個廠……"],["呂委員玉玲：如果部長你講到這個問題的話……"],["郭部長智輝：但是我的生產線是……"],["呂委員玉玲：本席也要提醒你，剛剛有講到我們到美國的出口值是1,163億美元，但是我們看到所有我們的晶片或者是半導體設備出口到美國的出口值大概83.51億美元，占我們出口值只有不到5%，當我們聽到要被美國增加關稅，我們就被嚇到了，馬上就跑到美國去設廠，在這種情形之下，我想請教部長，是不是我們的台積電加碼投資美國之後，我們就可以以此作為籌碼，幫忙我們所有其他產業出口到美國可以免被加徵關稅的籌碼，是不是這樣？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這個部分是綜合的考量，我相信台積電會幫助它的供應鏈來談出一個比較好的條件，畢竟……"],["呂委員玉玲：就不會被加徵關稅？"],["郭部長智輝：畢竟如果增加關稅，台積電的成本就增加了，那就更沒有競爭力了，所以這個不符合企業國際化的一個要求。我要跟委員報告，台積電到美國去，絕對不是受到美國的這個……它一定是受到美國客戶的需求，因為大家都知道……"],["呂委員玉玲：當然是有客戶的需求，可是部長你不要忘了，它還是……"],["郭部長智輝：國際企業的創造只有兩個基本原則……"],["呂委員玉玲：我們知道都要創造，走入國際化，但是人才外流是我們擔心的，因為它現在宣布要到美國設研發中心，當然跟我們臺灣的研發中心是有區隔的，一個是先進製程，一個屬於整個產能、產量的製造，但是兩個研發中心的人才在那邊一起的時候，你要知道，它會不會超前了我們的技術，或者我們的技術會流到美國去，這個都是我們關心的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：跟委員報告，你能不能給我一點時間跟你說明？美國的研究大概是做基本研究，包括材料、包括用什麼樣的設備來生產，這是美國的同仁他們比較喜歡做的事情，所以美國的大學、美國的研究所都是在做所謂research的工作。但是台積電最厲害，在臺灣有9,000人的那是做develop、發展的工作。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是他也說它要肩負開創新的技術……"],["郭部長智輝：對，但是那個技術要能夠成為生產，它要能夠發展出來，就要量產。就好像我今天在家裡只能做一點，譬如10件，但我在工廠生產的就是1萬件，有這個技術要發展成能夠製造……"],["呂委員玉玲：是，但我們希望部長了解，這些都是我們擔心的，你要如何讓國人能夠增強信心，不會因為台積電到美國去投資之後大家的信心會大減，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我舉一個例子給你聽……"],["呂委員玉玲：要繼續壯大我們的護國神山台積電，可不可以？"],["郭部長智輝：台積電是它的技術，就是到哪裡大概別人都會很難接收的。"],["呂委員玉玲：可是到美國設研發中心是我們擔心的。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，它那個是在線上，線上已經成熟了，但它要讓它的良率，因為半導體注重的是良率，那它……"],["呂委員玉玲：可是我們就怕它超前了，研發中心在美國之後，他們的各項技術就會超前臺灣的研發中心。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，剛剛我講，台積電在做研究和發展的工程師有一萬多位，所以這個是不可能，去的1,000位是所謂製程上、生產上有關的工程師，如何讓生產的成本更低、如何效益更好……"],["呂委員玉玲：好，部長，你要有信心，也希望能夠讓我們的護國神山繼續壯大，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是，一定。"],["呂委員玉玲：好，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在請賴士葆委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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依法令規定保留職缺考試分發列管還有機要缺還有臨補中以及借調到其他機關這六類的缺額大概是13226人那還有尚未運用的缺額呢大概是6817人那他的缺額呢 我依照比例是3.6%"},{"start":51.784,"end":78.974,"text":"在地方政府裡頭缺額大概是20717人扣除六類六類的缺額是11050人還有尚未運用的缺額大概是9667人他的缺額率是5.2那麼除了因應各項的政策的一個推動要保留我們人才這個彈性調度那因為呢"},{"start":80.995,"end":99.297,"text":"這個專業的人員的高度是零補不益比如說資安的人力導致公務人員的缺額是越來越嚴重那請問人事長您有什麼方案可以吸引而且可以留住優秀的人才請做說明"},{"start":100.4,"end":123.901,"text":"我覺得委員剛才提的非常好像治安能力的部分事實上從數碼部成立到現在我們一直跟那個治安署在談因為說真的以目前整個市場的供需來講治安能力事實上是嚴重不足很多都會被上市貴公司或者金融機構董事長你現在的角色是人事長"},{"start":124.702,"end":152.789,"text":"本席將問題提出你不用再敘述這個內容需要聽聽您有什麼樣的經濟方案可以有誘因可以怎麼樣留住人才治安能力的部分我們除了規定的那一種專業家級表20以外我們有政治專業家級還有留任獎金還有他的團體或個人獎金透過這三種方式來提升他的一個待遇跟收入"},{"start":153.109,"end":177.319,"text":"但是目前你所提出的方案還是缺額非常的多零補不益你是不是再去精進因為你如果只有講你目前的樣態那你解決不了問題所以本席會在這邊提出我希望你去精進方案方案給本席我跟委員報告這裡面有兩個部分一個是請治安署他提那個治安的考試職缺"},{"start":177.879,"end":195.101,"text":"因為治安的專門類科的考試是上一年才開始開放第一個他要增加這一個職缺招募更多人第二個呢治安署目前同時也在做職能轉訊的部分只要上課上幾十個學分職能轉訊"},{"start":196.983,"end":225.45,"text":"第一個也就是希望職缺多開第二個職能轉訓不管你什麼方案我們就希望領補要領補進來這是國家非常重要的人力需求你把經濟方案給本席接下來我要跟你討論的本席要討論的是總統府所謂的健康台灣推動委員會本席非常的重視這一個議案那麼在2月27號的時候召開了第三次會議衛務部我們的邱部長在會中也表示也就是我們這邊也"},{"start":226.71,"end":249.058,"text":"有邀請存續部、勞動部還有衛福部一起來商討你們似乎是有獲得了一些共識本期要請教進度有一個增訂公務人員身心調適價本期認為這個非常重要因為現在的壓力太大了所以請教身心調適價在目前價別的適用範圍"},{"start":250.458,"end":267.696,"text":"他的假期長度他給新的方式以及實際上執行的細節你們目前狀態研議的方案怎麼樣呢我們已經在3月17號簽成行政院我們還要會考試院我們會送考試院基本上會在"},{"start":268.397,"end":290.867,"text":"七天試駕裡面挪三天當申請條試駕他是有薪水的七天挪三天有薪水的有薪水然後服務員機關不能拒絕然後也不必檢控服務的機關不能拒絕就是北京長大這個適用範圍而且也不能做不利於當事人的處罰"},{"start":291.747,"end":299.376,"text":"這就非常重要這就非常重要阿你清清的了你考證了他有壓力阿他不敢請阿對又考期又去給你懲罰這個我們都要周圍詳細而且也不用檢護證明不用檢護證明齁那這個"},{"start":306.684,"end":331.353,"text":"人總 我想今天我歡喜聽到這個進度我希望你趕快去把這個進度追出來因為我覺得我們要留住人才我們要讓他能夠安心有需要者 這個是非常非常的重要這個本席特別的勉勵那接下來本席要告訴你一句話也就剛剛我們在財政委員會在這一次審查總預算的時候中國國民黨也提出了一個主決議"},{"start":332.313,"end":355.612,"text":"也就公股銀行你要怎麼樣有留住這些人才我們所謂的公股銀行跟飯公股的比較差別非常的大大約有五項剛剛我們一直在談論也就是伙食費剛剛財政部長本席告訴你數字財政部長告訴我們伙食費一個月三千生意補助他們簽的是十萬嘛剛剛您說有簽到哪裡嘛"},{"start":358.055,"end":371.134,"text":"以前的數字是不是跟財政部長講的一樣是10萬那一樣的接下來也就是員工的這個福利的部分他們是要提出 財政部提出稅前盈餘的1到8%"},{"start":373.834,"end":394.671,"text":"第四項 也就是獎金的部分由原先的4.4個月到4.6個月對 這個到4.6個月還有一個就是福利性托 才能夠有保障我希望你這邊要全力的來支持因為我們也看到 他們要留出人才也非常非常的辛苦"},{"start":395.151,"end":410.356,"text":"也非常的辛苦因為我說的宮古營養是一個模範生我們如果沒有讓他們能夠安心願意留下來那我們的宮古營養這個模範生的精緻招牌或許就會有很大的衝擊您的看法呢我一直非常支持"},{"start":411.209,"end":425.859,"text":"一直非常支持所以一定要趕快努力推動來落實而且這是中共國民黨在審查總預算的時候在立院裡頭大院做出的主決議我們希望能夠完善它謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來有請我們林月琴委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":836,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時32分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：人事長好。我們首先來討論人怎麼留住的問題，我們看到113年9月底中央機關職員缺額大概是20,043人，扣除一級以上的主管，依法令規定保留職缺，考試分發、列管、機要缺、遴補中及借調到其他機關這六類的缺額大概是13,226人，還有尚未運用的缺額大概是6,817人，缺額的比例是3.6%，在地方政府的缺額大概是20,717人，扣除六類的缺額是11,050人，還有尚未運用的缺額9,667人，缺額率是5.2%。除了因應各項政策的推動，要保留人才的彈性調度，因為專業人員的高度是遴補不易，遴補不易，比如資安的人力導致公務人員的缺額是越來越嚴重，請問人事長，您有什麼方案可以吸引而且可以留住優秀的人才？請做說明。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得委員剛才講得非常好，像資安人力的部分，事實上從數發部成立到現在，我們一直跟資安署在談，說真的以目前整個市場的供需來講，資安人力事實上是嚴重不足，很多都會被上市櫃公司或者金融機構……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：人事長，你現在的角色是人事長，本席將問題提出，你不用再敘述這個內容，本席是要聽聽您有什麼樣的精進方案可以有誘因留住人才。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：在資安人力的部分，我們除了規定的專業加給表(二十)以外，我們有增支專業加給、留任獎金，還有團體或個人獎金，透過這三種方式來提升他的待遇跟收入。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：目前雖然你有提出方案，但是缺額還是非常多，遴補不易，你是不是要再去精進？因為如果你只有講目前的樣態，那解決不了問題，所以本席會在這邊提出，我希望你去精進方案，提供給本席。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，其中有兩個部分，一個是請資安署提資安的考試職缺，因為資安的專門類科考試是上一年才開始開放，第一、要增加這一個職缺，招募更多人；第二、資安署目前同時也在做職能轉訓的的部分，只要上幾十個學分的課，就能夠職能轉訓。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第一、希望多開職缺，第二、職能轉訓，不管你什麼方案，我們就希望要能夠遴補進來，這是國家非常重要的人力需求，你把精進方案給本席。","接下來本席要跟你討論的是總統府所謂的健康臺灣推動委員會，本席非常重視這一個議案，在2月27號的時候召開了第3次會議，衛福部的邱部長在會中也表示，就是我們這邊有邀請銓敘部、勞動部還有衛福部一起來商討，你們似乎有獲得了一些共識，本席要請教進度，也就是增訂公務人員身心調適假，本席認為這個非常重要，因為現在的壓力太大了，所以請教身心調適假在目前假別的適用範圍、假期長度、給薪的方式及實際上執行的細節，你們目前研議的方案怎麼樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們已經在3月17號簽陳行政院，我們還要會考試院，我們會送考試院，基本上會在7天事假裡面挪3天當身心調適假，它是有薪水的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：7天挪3天有薪水的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有薪水，然後服務的機關不能拒絕，然後也不必檢附證明……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：服務的機關不能拒絕，這是本席講的適用範圍。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：而且也不能做不利於當事人的處罰。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個非常重要。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不然，他申請了，機關一打考績，他有壓力，他不敢請啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：又用考績給你懲罰，這個我們都要周延、詳細。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：而且也不用檢附證明。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：人總，今天我很歡喜聽到這個進度，希望你趕快去把這個進度追出來，因為我覺得要留住人才，我們要讓有需要者能夠安心，這個非常非常重要，這是本席特別的勉勵。","接下來本席要告訴你一句話，剛剛我們在財政委員會，在這一次審查總預算的時候中國國民黨也提出了一個主決議，就是公股銀行要怎麼樣留住人才，所謂的公股銀行跟泛公股的比較差別非常大，大約有五項，剛剛我們一再地在談論，也就是伙食費，本席告訴你數字，剛剛財政部長告訴我們，伙食費一個月3,000元，生育補助他們簽的是10萬，剛剛您說簽到哪裡了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：簽到行政院了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你簽的數字是不是跟財政部長講的一樣是10萬？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來也就是員工的福利，財政部提出稅前盈餘的1%到8%。第四項也就是獎金的部分，由原先的4.4個月到4.6個月。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這是大院做的決定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，還有一個就是福利信託，才能夠有保障。我希望你這邊全力地來支持，因為我們也看到他們要留住人才非常非常辛苦。因為公股銀行是模範生，我們如果不能讓他們安心、願意留下來，那對於公股銀行這個模範生的金字招牌或許就會有很大的衝擊，你的看法呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我一直也非常支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以一定要趕快努力推動來落實，而且這是中國國民黨在審查總預算的時候，在立院做出的主決議，我們希望能夠完善它，謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","接下來請林月琴委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}},{"id":"159456","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159456","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb02dab7a77125ddb5f56c3f89dc79e7a2560f1855e115a4ba4a950302871400d155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"11:21:54 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clean的煤來發電就是美麗又潔淨的那所以"},{"start":34.355,"end":37.959,"text":"市場都預期未來美國的煤會增產"},{"start":41.345,"end":65.459,"text":"我們也聽到了AIT的古麗妍處長說美國他們可以滿足台灣能源的需求無論是液化天然氣再生能源或核能那前三項就是古麗妍說的這三項都是比較符合目前我們台灣的能源未來的規劃"},{"start":67.389,"end":90.966,"text":"川普總統說的這個捷徑的煤那如果未來他會不會有可能要求我們增加採購報告委員這個我可不可以請台電董事長跟你回應那個報告委員那個我們的燃煤機組目前就是只有五部超超臨界燃煤機組"},{"start":91.963,"end":116.52,"text":"所以我們以目前來看台電的機組的配置燃煤量是一定有一個上限的而且根據大院的決議在審台電的預算的時候其實我的燃煤採購量也在逐年下降當中所以即便是川普總統要求我們目前都沒有辦法增加對煤的採購量對不對"},{"start":121.142,"end":131.546,"text":"這個短期內應該有困難我想請這個董事長再繼續報告委員我們現在在進行的整個減碳的基礎更新規劃"},{"start":133.811,"end":156.671,"text":"興達的機組已經陸陸續續要除役台中的機組我們現在接下來二期開始啟動以後也會陸續的只要機組上來它就會開始燃煤量都會開始逐步下降那至於我們現在就是新增就是最近幾年投資的新的機組超超臨界的燃煤機組雖然它的排放量"},{"start":157.674,"end":175.92,"text":"很低可是目前來看我們沒有新的燃煤機組的規劃所以我們整體的購煤的上限是會受到我們機組運轉數的影響要大幅增加的可能性是很小很小的那如果他要求呢"},{"start":179.929,"end":197.093,"text":"我認為這些事情我們必須要跟他理性的討論理性的討論我想就這個事實來跟他們請教所以我想要增加有困難我想美國他應該會有考慮我們的這個建議"},{"start":200.576,"end":226.887,"text":"因為你知道嘛4月2號所有國家的關稅號碼都要公佈嘛那這個時候是磋商的這個關鍵的期間啊那會不會在減少這個貿易逆差的時候那美國會要求我們就是加大除了就是說過去我們看到的核能天然氣還有再生能源等等那會不會多增加要求沒呢"},{"start":229.293,"end":232.656,"text":"這樣子的一個變數關係我們會列入考慮我們這個會提供給這個談判單位作為參考好"},{"start":239.295,"end":262.481,"text":"那還有我們知道其實除了剛才諸位委員所說的希望部長要了解到說民眾不希望漲電價即便是產業漲電價都有可能轉嫁到民生的用品上面那所以物價的上漲等等的因素"},{"start":262.841,"end":277.498,"text":"非常的重要除了剛才部長所重視的就是我們國家的電價比其他我們在製造業上面競爭國家的電價如果有就是說我們不比"},{"start":277.878,"end":292.684,"text":"就是不能夠超過他們以外我們必須要考慮到就是漲電量會對於民生所造成的影響所以你要把我們本院委員所有的意見充分的轉達給電價審議委員會可以嗎"},{"start":294.685,"end":320.362,"text":"是的委員這個部分我們一定會如實的提供給電價審議委員會參考好還有喔在你最新的報告裡面你也提到了在菲律賓種電然後不管是用就是電池船或者是電纜短期內啦當然電纜是不可行因為電纜沒有建制嘛那"},{"start":320.922,"end":343.978,"text":"我長期就是說用電動船就電池船來運送這個電力都是有難度的那甚至就是有可能是不會完成的那你又在去年的10月31號表示如果在美國跟日本協助下參與禮送的經濟走廊這個計畫那"},{"start":348.841,"end":375.49,"text":"是希望落實你境外關內的政策把低階的封裝高耗能的石化鋼鐵業移到菲律賓去那你就說了重電的可行性很難那是不是代表你想要推動的就是把低階的封裝高耗能的石化以及鋼鐵業移到菲律賓"},{"start":375.97,"end":391.42,"text":"那這樣子的情況對於我們國家的勞工的就業衝擊以及經濟影響的成長的影響那你有什麼樣的評估報告委員我想參與這個呂宋經濟走廊這個命題應該是這個"},{"start":395.723,"end":411.85,"text":"他們這個美國日本跟這個菲律賓之間的決議那我們能不能夠參與啊我想這個變數還蠻大的那我們只是說我們在這個過程裡面我們必須要考慮我們台灣的整體的這個發展"},{"start":413.391,"end":440.639,"text":"那因為台灣要擴增各方面的這個發展的時候我們當然提出一個建議去做說如果今天我們讓台灣的綠電業者可以到海外去增加他的市場這個台灣因為我想我們的地方有限然後我們能夠發展綠電的這個空間也有限所以我們到這個菲律賓去發展因為菲律賓的這個土地非常的大那我們在評估所以會寫出一個評估計畫書"},{"start":443.28,"end":457.93,"text":"那這個評估計畫書看起來在那個地方創綠電是可行的因為綠電應該都在兩三塊錢那我講過了就是說我買電跟我鼓勵國內的廠商去那邊創電這個是不同的這個計畫"},{"start":461.212,"end":478.38,"text":"如果今天我們的國內的業者發展這個綠電的業者他在海外有能夠擴張他的這個市場的時候他就可以提供綠電他在菲律賓提供他的綠電給我們在那個地方如果我們能夠做大型的這個工業區"},{"start":479.44,"end":504.541,"text":"也就是我在提倡的境外官內的這個工業區那麼這個是一個非常讓大家可以移動的生產移動的這個部分那這個部分裡面它可以得到最重要就是它需要有電有水那麼這個水電我們都可以幫助它獲得更高經濟效益更低成本的水跟電"},{"start":505.472,"end":534.097,"text":"那麼這樣子的話他會比這個他在中國大陸也好或者他在台灣或者在日本的這個廠商他可以移動到這個菲律賓去做基本上菲律賓的人力他們發展的非常的好菲律賓就我們在看呂宋島光是一個呂宋島大概台灣比台灣大概三倍大那大概有六千萬的人口所以這一部分他們要進到這個工業區服務相對於"},{"start":535.057,"end":561.63,"text":"相對於台灣的廠商來講是一個選擇的部分那當台灣的廠商要往世界各地去發展的時候我們可以提供一個讓他離家鄉最近的一個地區但是我剛才在講過最重要的還是水跟電各位都很清楚一直在指責菲律賓的電七塊八塊這麼高的價格我怎麼可能送回來對不起我是先創一塊或者兩塊錢的電"},{"start":563.611,"end":577.702,"text":"讓他們先供給菲律賓的這些我們的台商或者是日商或者是從中國大陸要移轉出來的這些台商讓他們先得到基礎建設的這些輔助"},{"start":579.043,"end":600.435,"text":"讓它更具有競爭力這個才是我們最大的目的第二個它如果剩下的發出來的電有剩下的話我們可以用兩種方式把它送回來一種透過電子船送回來第二個通過海嵐送回來海嵐這個2011年就在世界討論的一個海事工程"},{"start":601.375,"end":615.145,"text":"我們也看到了非常多歐洲的國家是透過海嵐在送電我們也看到最新的計畫從新加坡他願意從澳洲拉4800公里拉到新加坡也是透過海嵐"},{"start":616.354,"end":640.681,"text":"我們認為我們也透過很多的智庫分析也透過很多的這個單位來做這些評估評估報告都有所以我們呢做了這一份可行性分析認為它是可行的接著我們要做實地的驗證實地的驗證這是科學的方法實地的驗證在確認它是可行的以後我們才會建議國內的"},{"start":643.114,"end":656.001,"text":"綠電業者往那邊移動但是我們會跟這個當地政府來討論怎麼樣給我們一些好的這個優惠的這個措施所以對經濟部來講這麼大的一個計畫不是"},{"start":661.745,"end":682.471,"text":"這個這麼輕易就做決定我們都有做非常多的simulation只是有一些部分跟委員報告牽扯到國安的部分是我們在這裡不能夠詳細的報告好不要什麼事情最後都扯到國安我覺得說我們還是應該因為我們現在非常多的"},{"start":683.611,"end":704.168,"text":"這個所謂的假訊息非常多的認知作戰所以這點請委員能夠諒解我們確實沒有辦法據信明儀但是我們願意到你的辦公室去據信明儀的報告好好謝謝喔那也請你馬上就是能夠回去的時候轉達電業審議委員會就是我們電價審議委員會把所有我們本院委員對於電價不應該調漲這個問題"},{"start":713.617,"end":716.846,"text":"應該要如實的來陳述好不好是的 我們會如實的陳述"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":647,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（11時22分）謝謝主席，我想要請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：部長好。我想要請問一下，川普總統3月17號的時候在社交媒體上提到要用「BEAUTIFUL,CLEAN COAL」來發電，就是美麗又潔淨的煤，所以市場都預期未來美國的煤會增產。我們也聽到了AIT的谷立言處長說，美國可以滿足臺灣的能源需求，無論是液化天然氣、再生能源或核能，谷立言說的這三項都是比較符合目前我們臺灣能源未來的規劃。部長，川普總統說的潔淨的煤，未來他會不會有可能要求我們增加採購？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個我可不可以請台電董事長跟你回應？"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，請說。"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，我們的燃煤機組目前就是只有五部超超臨界燃煤機組，所以我們以目前台電機組的配置來看，燃煤量一定是有一個上限的，而且根據大院的決議，在審台電預算的時候，其實我們的燃煤採購量也在逐年下降當中。"],["謝委員衣鳯：所以即便是川普總統要求，我們目前都沒有辦法增加對美國煤的採購量，對不對？"],["曾董事長文生：短期內有困難。"],["郭部長智輝：這個短期內應該有困難，我請董事長再繼續報告。"],["曾董事長文生：報告委員，我們現在在進行的整個減碳的機組更新規劃，興達的機組已經陸陸續續要除役；臺中的機組，我們接下來二期開始啟動以後，只要機組上來，它的燃煤量也都會開始逐步下降。至於我們現在的新增投資，就是最近幾年投資的新的機組，超超臨界的燃煤機組，雖然它的排放量很低，可是目前來看，我們沒有新的燃煤機組的規劃，所以我們整體購煤的上限是會受到我們機組運轉數的影響，要大幅增加的可能性是很小很小的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：那如果他要求呢？"],["曾董事長文生：這是做不到的事啊。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果他要求呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，如果……"],["謝委員衣鳯：因為4月2號關稅……"],["郭部長智輝：我認為這些事情，我們必須要跟他理性的討論，就這個事實來跟他們請教，因為我們要增加有困難，我想美國應該會考慮我們的建議。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，因為你知道4月2號所有國家的關稅號碼都要公布，這個時候是磋商的關鍵期間，會不會在減少貿易逆差的時候，美國會要求我們加大？除了過去我們看到的核能、天然氣，還有再生能源等等，會不會多增加要求煤的部分呢？"],["郭部長智輝：這樣子的一個變數關係，我們會列入考慮，我們會提供給談判單位做為參考。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。還有，我們知道，除了剛才諸位委員所說的，希望部長要了解到民眾不希望漲電價，即便是產業漲了電價，都有可能轉嫁到民生用品上面，所以物價上漲等等的因素非常的重要，除了剛才部長所重視的，就是我們國家的電價與其他在製造業上面跟我們有競爭的國家的電價相比，除了我們不能夠超過他們以外，我們還必須要考慮到漲電價對於民生所造成的影響，所以你要把我們本院委員所有的意見充分的轉達給電價審議委員會，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，委員，這個部分我們一定會如實的提供給電價審議委員會參考。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好。還有，在你最新的報告裡面也提到了在菲律賓種電，然後不管是用電池船或者是電纜輸送，短期內當然電纜是不可行，因為電纜沒有建置嘛，但長期來看，用電池船來運送電力都是有難度的，甚至有可能是不會完成的。你又在去年的10月31號表示，期盼在美國跟日本協助下參與「呂宋經濟走廊」計畫，希望落實你境外關內的政策，把低階的封裝、高耗能的石化鋼鐵業移到菲律賓去，你就說了，種電的可行性很難，那是不是代表你想要推動的就是把低階的封裝、高耗能的石化以及鋼鐵業移到菲律賓？這樣對於我們國家勞工的就業衝擊以及經濟成長的影響，你有什麼樣的評估？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想參與「呂宋經濟走廊」這個命題，應該是美國、日本跟菲律賓之間的決議，我們能不能夠參與，我想這個變數還滿大的。我們只是說，在這個過程裡面，我們必須要考慮臺灣的整體發展，因為臺灣要擴增各方面發展的時候，我們當然就是提出一個建議去做，如果今天我們讓臺灣的綠電業者可以到海外去增加它的市場，因為我們臺灣的地方有限，然後我們能夠發展綠電的空間也有限，所以我們到菲律賓去發展，因為菲律賓的土地非常的大，我們有在評估，所以會寫出一個評估計畫書，從這個評估計畫書看起來，在那個地方創綠電是可行的，因為綠電應該都在每度二、三塊錢。我講過了，我買電跟我鼓勵國內的廠商去那邊創電是不同的計畫，如果今天我們國內發展綠電的業者，在海外也能夠擴張他的市場的時候，他就可以提供綠電，可以在菲律賓提供他的綠電給我們在那個地方的工業區，如果我們能夠做大型的工業區，也就是我在提倡的境外關內的工業區，這是讓大家的生產可以移動的部分。在這個部分，他可以得到最重要的，就是他需要有電、有水，也就是我們可以幫助他獲得更高的經濟效益、更低成本的水跟電，這樣子的話，在中國大陸的也好，或者在臺灣、在日本的這些廠商可以移動到菲律賓去做，基本上，菲律賓的人力，他們發展得非常好，就我們在看菲律賓呂宋島，光是一個呂宋島比臺灣大概是三倍大，大概有6,000萬的人口，以這部分來說，他們要進到工業區服務，相對於臺灣的廠商來講，是一個選擇的部分，當臺灣的廠商要往世界各地去發展的時候，我們可以提供一個讓他離家鄉最近的地區，但是我剛才也講過的，最重要的還是水跟電，各位都很清楚，一直在指責說菲律賓的電7塊、8塊，這麼高的價格，我怎麼可能送回來？對不起，我是先創1塊或2塊錢的電，讓他們先供給給在菲律賓的這些臺商或者日商，或是從中國大陸要移轉出來的這些臺商，讓他們先得到基礎建設的這些輔助，讓他更具有競爭力，這個才是我們最大的目的。","第二個，如果有剩下的，發出來的電有剩下的話，我們可以用兩種方式把它送回來，一種是透過電池船送回來；一種是通過海纜送回來，海纜這個部分是2011年就在世界討論的一個海事工程，我們也看到了非常多歐洲的國家是透過海纜在送電；我們也看到最新的計畫，像新加坡願意從澳洲拉4,800公里到新加坡，也是透過海纜。我們也透過很多的智庫分析，也透過很多的單位來做相關評估，評估報告都有，所以我們做了這一份可行性分析，認為這是可行的。接著我們要做實地的驗證，實地的驗證是科學的方法，透過實地的驗證，確認它是可行的以後，我們才會建議國內的綠電業者往那邊移動，但是我們也會跟當地政府來討論怎麼樣給我們一些好的優惠的措施。所以對經濟部來講，這麼大的一個計畫不是這麼輕易的就做決定，我們都有做非常多的simulation，只是跟委員報告，有一些部分牽扯到國安，恕我們在這裡不能夠詳細的報告。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，不要什麼事情最後都扯到國安啦，我覺得我們還是應該就……"],["郭部長智輝：因為我們現在有非常多所謂的假訊息、非常多的認知作戰，所以這一點請委員能夠諒解，我們確實沒有辦法在這裡鉅細靡遺的報告，但是我們願意到您的辦公室去做鉅細靡遺的報告。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝，也請你回去後能夠轉達電價審議委員會，把本院委員所有對於電價不應該調漲的這個問題要如實的來陳述，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：是的，我們會如實的陳述。"],["主席（謝委員衣鳯）：現在請呂玉玲委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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在場的委員 先進列席的政務機關長 官員 會長 工作夥伴 媒體記者 女士先生有請我們蘇惠仁市長請人事長委員早委員長早先輕鬆一下看一段影片我們來看一下來可以嗎怎麼抱歉 這時間暫停一下剛剛不是要播影片嗎按左邊"},{"start":40.273,"end":61.409,"text":"这还没设定好抱歉这个还要设定一下值得看了回来就好那医院开给你的薪水是32K13个月三节奖金各500等一下怎么才32K当护理师薪水不是很高的吗我最近都在看新闻说年资不到一年的护理师平均薪资6到7万年资6至7年约74K才对耶"},{"start":62.062,"end":86.883,"text":"放心我們除了底薪外還有輪班津貼跟餐費津貼簽約獎金等上小業會有600大約900元確定錄取你後醫院會跟你簽合約OK好來那個人長這個影片你覺得目前我們台灣社會是不是對於醫療機構的醫護人員我們都認為要提升他們的待遇"},{"start":88.161,"end":103.128,"text":"大家普遍有這樣的一個期待那你知道我們公立醫療機構的護理人員的薪資是多少嗎他的薪資結構你們有做統計嗎因為我是指公立的喔衛福部上週公布各醫院護理人員的薪資人種有沒有類似的統計我我"},{"start":107.641,"end":135.414,"text":"大概四升級大概四萬多啦四一六八零我們要有一個奉典奉額還有專業家籍的一個累積有私籍跟市籍的嘛對私籍到六萬七左右私籍到六萬七喔對我們部立屏東醫院如果是護理是私籍的最基層的之前的有46K如果是市籍的有39K經常薪資是本薪加固定津貼非經常薪資是加班費加非固定獎金是不是這樣子"},{"start":135.954,"end":162.826,"text":"是好我補充一下師醫級的也算高九萬八千六六百六師醫級師那是最高啦醫師護理師都是師啦好那我們現在看來其實呢我遇到很多公立大型醫院的院長管理階層他們說現在大型醫院你也知道國人的就醫習慣很喜歡去大型醫院急診啊加護病房啊這醫護人力都過度勞動啊"},{"start":163.866,"end":188.263,"text":"負荷過高 所以他說我們可不可以把業外收入拿來提獎金 為什麼因為事業收入呢 受到健保總額的限制他沒有辦法去調但是呢 如果公立醫院大型機構他的業外收入像停車場啦 美食街廣場啦他有這個空間 他想要公立醫院可不可以從業外收入提撥獎勵金來給這些特別辛苦的醫護人員"},{"start":191.384,"end":205.239,"text":"我謝謝委員這個問題事實上這個問題之前我有跟主計長討論過我就拜託主計長他們可以去整體的衡量因為兩個角度啦一個就是說你要提供獎金是應該"},{"start":206.801,"end":229.292,"text":"跟醫療這些相關嘛另外一個就是以更大的範圍裡面在醫院的場域裡面提供相關服務的他也把他的營收列入整個鋪合對 但是你有問過人事主計長我也問過主計長那主計長提醒一點不是每個醫院公立院都有這個條件大型機構人潮多錢潮多業外收入高"},{"start":229.972,"end":255.96,"text":"比較中小型的公立醫院就沒有這個辦法搞不好這樣子會造成人才往醫學中心集中他提出這個顧慮你是不是也覺得有這個可能有 當然一定會有這個可能所以呢 要從大型公立醫院才有的業外收入去提高他們的獎金話說回來會有一些可能的後遺症那這樣好不好那如果我們普遍的把公職護理師的專業家級提高來留才這進一步還可以帶動私立醫院的加薪你覺得可不可行可以嗎"},{"start":261.039,"end":286.602,"text":"我們這一次調薪會專業家計表24會調整會針對我們公立醫院的醫護人力是不是這樣對好你承諾了好我們等著看好那接下來另外我們來看到這是剛公佈的去年的金控全國的金控14家的平均薪資出爐了第一名是元大金那我們看到如果是泛公股的有兆豐有第一有和酷有華南四家入榜"},{"start":287.242,"end":310.202,"text":"你認為國營的金融機構要如何與飯工股和民營徵財我跟您提醒 什麼叫國營的金融機構就是台灣銀行 土地銀行跟輸出的銀行他們簡稱叫台土輸你覺得有沒有辦法來跟他們談 這裡面都沒有台灣銀行沒有在入黨你覺得是不是要幫助這些國營金融機構他們的待遇提升來跟民間來爭取人才"},{"start":312.328,"end":335.508,"text":"基本上我是支持,不過它本身有一個遊戲規則好,我們來看一下這個遊戲規則其實很遺憾的,不曉得那個時空背景在第八屆第四會前,國民黨委員提出的提案限制了財政部所屬的事業機構,就是指國營金融機構它的最高績效獎金只能4.4個月你知道嗎,這個跟民間差很大,我們往下看"},{"start":336.429,"end":351.075,"text":"現在呢國營跟飯工股的呢 伙食費人家的是三千 他們是免稅的七百五再往下看那麼生育津貼呢 哇 人家都是什麼一胎十五萬 十萬結果呢 台土輸 台灣金控 土營輸營都"},{"start":352.395,"end":374.315,"text":"大概不到一萬塊以下我們來看一下喔往前跳一頁台灣銀行的資產規模是另外四家的最前面第一名結果這四家金控啊是范工股的金控呢他們的待遇有進入到前十四名台灣銀行輸TIAMTIAM啊更不要說土地銀行跟輸出銀行所以叫做台土輸啊輸TIAMTIAM"},{"start":374.955,"end":397.337,"text":"那您覺得要怎麼樣來改善呢?你是不是要改善?我跟委員報告大概兩個部分一個剛才提到的獎金4.4的部分的限制立法院那我們給他調啊你給他調,那點我認為立法院調就好第二點,生意補助的問題我們這個禮拜剛簽行政院就是每一胎你們都支持,都10萬塊"},{"start":399.458,"end":405.86,"text":"這個生意補助十萬從以前到現在我們對這個議題都非常支持我跟你講我剛剛去財政委員會我問財政部長他們有五大基地措施我問他那什麼時候可以實施他說要報院但是院裡面會先問人總的意見我說好我現在馬上問人總你支不支持財政部的這個方案五大方案"},{"start":419.164,"end":427.287,"text":"有大方案喔 不是只有生育娜娘喔阿哥4.4調到4.6的那個是那個我們立法院來解決我想立法院會有人反對所以人總支持吧我有跟他交換條件啦其中有兩個是要組總掛定你的部分那三個你支持組總的另外兩個我會再問主席長好不好那你就支持了齁因為我跟他相書啊我說人事長一定會支持他說不曉得咧我說我來馬上問支持啦齁好 謝謝"},{"start":451.075,"end":458.705,"text":"要講一下我們請評估提升公職醫護待遇以帶動私立醫院加薪的可行性你們來提出一個書面報告可不可以"},{"start":460.653,"end":479.16,"text":"好啦 OK那剛剛講的那個五大方案提升國營金融機構的員工待遇與飯宮股和民營的銀行可以來爭取搶取人才也是一樣你說五項 有三項是你的嘛把這三項拿出來然後呢 你掛簿先給他擠一擠這樣好不好我們應該是兩項啦喔 越來越少就多一項出了一項這項是立法院割的嘛立法院我們來改要煮給兩間嘛 都五間啊好 那我們一起努力好不好好 好 謝謝"},{"start":488.111,"end":491.859,"text":"好 謝謝 人事長不錯 真開明這個少子化這個議題會不會補助啊 國家的投資啊"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":782,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時24分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。請蘇人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["鍾委員佳濱：人事長早。先輕鬆一下，看一段影片，我們來看一下。抱歉，時間暫停一下，剛剛不是要播影片嗎？這還沒設定好，抱歉，還要設定一下，這值得看。","（播放影片）"],["鍾委員佳濱：人事長，這個影片你覺得目前臺灣社會是不是對於醫療機構的醫護人員，我們都認為要提升他們的待遇？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：大家普遍有這樣的一個期待。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你知道公立醫療機構的護理人員薪資多少嗎？他的薪資結構你們有做統計嗎？因為我是指公立的喔！衛福部上週公布各醫院護理人員的薪資，人總有沒有類似的統計？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：士（生）級大概四萬多，大概4萬1,680元，我們那邊有俸點、俸額、專業加給的累積。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有師級跟士級的。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：師級大概六萬七左右。"],["鍾委員佳濱：師級到六萬七？","部立屏東醫院如果是護理師級的最基層、資淺有46K，如果是士級的有39K，經常薪資是本薪加固定津貼，非經常薪資是加班費加非固定獎金，是不是這樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是，我補充一下師(一)級到9萬8,660元。"],["鍾委員佳濱：師(一)級是最高。醫師、護理師都是師。","其實我遇到很多公立大型醫院的院長、管理階層，他們說國人的就醫習慣很喜歡去大型醫院急診、加護病房，醫護人力都過度勞動、負荷過高，他說我們可不可以把業外收入拿來提獎金，因為事業收入受到健保總額的限制，沒有辦法去調，但是如果公立醫院大型機構的業外收入，像停車場、美食街廣場，有這個空間，公立醫院可不可以從業外收入提撥獎勵金來給這些特別辛苦的醫護人員？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。這個問題之前我有跟主計長討論過，我就拜託主計長可以去整體地衡量，有兩個角度，一個就是說要提撥獎金是跟醫療直接相關……"],["鍾委員佳濱：實際的負荷。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：另外一個是以更大的範圍裡面，在醫院的場域裡面提供相關服務也把營收列入整個pool……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你有問過主計長，我也問過主計長，主計長提醒一點，不是每個公立醫院都有這個條件，大型機構人潮多、錢潮多，業外收入高；比較中小型的公立醫院就沒有辦法，搞不好這樣會造成人才往醫學中心集中，他提出這個顧慮，你是不是也覺得有這個可能？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：當然一定會有這個可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以要從大型公立醫院才有的業外收入去提高他們獎金，會有一些可能的後遺症，如果我們普遍把公職護理師的專業加給提高來留才，進一步還可以帶動私立醫院的加薪，你覺得可不可行？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這一次調薪，專業加給表(二十四)會調整。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以會針對公立醫院的醫護人力，是不是會調整？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你承諾了，我們等著看。","接下來，這是剛公布的去年全國的金控14家的平均薪資出爐，第1名是元大金，如果是泛公股，有兆豐、第一金、合庫金、華南金4家入榜，你認為國營的金融機構要如何與泛公股和民營爭才？什麼叫國營的金融機構？就是臺灣銀行、土地銀行跟輸出入銀行，簡稱叫「臺土輸」，臺灣銀行沒有入榜，你覺得是不是要幫助這些國營金融機構的待遇提升來跟民間來爭取人才？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上我是支持，不過它本身有有一個遊戲規則。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下遊戲規則，其實很遺憾地，在第8屆第4會期國民黨委員提出的提案，限制了財政部所屬的事業機構，就是指國營金融機構，它的最高績效獎金只能4.4個月，這個跟民間差很大；現在國營跟泛公股伙食費，人家的是3,000元，他們是免稅額750元；再往下看，生育津貼人家都一胎15萬、10萬，結果「臺土輸」──臺灣銀行、土地銀行跟輸出入銀行都大概1萬塊以下。我們來看一下，往前跳一頁，臺灣銀行的資產規模跟另外四家相比是第1名，結果這四家泛公股的金控，他們的待遇有進入到前14名，臺灣銀行輸慘了，更不要說土地銀行跟輸出入銀行，所以叫做「臺、土、輸，輸慘慘」，那您覺得要怎麼樣來改善呢？你知不知道要改善？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告兩個部分，一、剛才提到的獎金4.4的限制，立法院……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我們幫他們調啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那一點我覺得立法院調就好。第二、生育補助的問題，我們這個禮拜剛簽行政院，就是每一胎……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們都支持？都10萬塊？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟你說這個生育補助10萬，從以前到現在我們都非常支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我跟你講，我剛剛去財政委員會，我問財政部長，他們有五大激勵措施，我問他什麼時候可以實施？他說要報院，但是院裡面會先問人總的意見，我說好，我現在馬上來問人總，你支不支持財政部的這個方案？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：生育補助方案……"],["鍾委員佳濱：五大方案哦！不是只有生育而已。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：還有4.4調到4.6的那是立法院……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那個我們立法院來解決，我想立法院不會有人反對，所以人總支持吧？我有跟他交換條件。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其中有兩個是要主總決定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你的部分那三個你支持，主總的另外兩個，我會再問主計長，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你就支持了，因為我跟他打賭，我說人事長一定會支持，他說不曉得，我說我馬上問。支持啦？好，謝謝！要講一下，請評估提升公職醫護待遇以帶動私立醫院加薪的可行性，你們來提出一個書面報告，可不可以？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那剛剛講的那五大方案，提升國營金融機構員工待遇，與泛公股和民營銀行爭取人才也是一樣，你說五項有三項是你的，把這三項拿出來，然後你掛保證支持，這樣好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：應該是兩項啦。"],["鍾委員佳濱：越來越少了，五項剩下兩項。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一項是立法院決定的嘛。"],["鍾委員佳濱：立法院決定的我們來改。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們兩項、主計兩項，總共五項。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我們一起努力，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：人事長不錯，很開明，少子化這個議題也不是補助，這是國家的投資。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}},{"id":"159454","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159454","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb05f7a8f790c04235d01b4bb3d6676f3fd60f1855e115a4ba47a999415d811f7405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉書彬","委員發言時間":"11:19:08 - 11:31:56","影片長度":"00:12:48","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：\n(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(二) 審查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(六) 審查委員黃健豪等20人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案。(七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案。(八) 審查委員林倩綺等21人擬具「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案。(九) 審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T11:19:08+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T11:31:56+08:00","duration":768,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.324093750000003,"end":17.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.247218750000002,"end":20.550968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.770343750000002,"end":21.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.934718750000002,"end":24.145343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.58409375,"end":25.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.410968750000002,"end":25.664093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.32221875,"end":61.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.73846875,"end":69.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.64034375,"end":71.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.67784375000001,"end":84.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.73909375000001,"end":97.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.92409375000001,"end":92.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.29846875000001,"end":99.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.12096875,"end":103.69409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.74471875,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.47846875,"end":138.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.47721875,"end":115.27034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.18096875,"end":120.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.91221875000002,"end":145.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.86471875,"end":149.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.81346875,"end":150.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.99471875,"end":151.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.78784375,"end":183.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.63096875000002,"end":189.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.91346875000002,"end":188.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.28409375,"end":300.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.29534375,"end":198.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.04534375,"end":232.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.63096875,"end":292.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.31846875,"end":293.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.10221875,"end":306.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.51471875000004,"end":339.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.63409375000003,"end":328.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.51034375,"end":334.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.96096875,"end":345.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.27659375,"end":351.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.40721875,"end":347.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.95534375,"end":349.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.76096875,"end":362.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.06721875,"end":362.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.75909375000003,"end":365.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.58159375,"end":369.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.99846875000003,"end":387.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.12659375000004,"end":392.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.50534375,"end":395.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.50096875,"end":422.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.51346875,"end":476.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.60159375,"end":426.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.36034375,"end":457.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.19284375,"end":485.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.71909375,"end":489.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.02659375,"end":487.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.38909375000003,"end":507.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.11346875000004,"end":500.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.70284375000006,"end":531.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.72034375,"end":530.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.15471875,"end":562.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.7990937500001,"end":540.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.33534375,"end":595.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.52409375,"end":570.8953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.72159375,"end":575.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.99159375,"end":576.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.38534375,"end":680.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.61346875,"end":647.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.3640937499999,"end":649.71846875},{"speaker"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我要向你說聲學長好我們剛才從像下一頁我們剛才從朝野的立委上面的關於營養午餐的說明說明或是在詢答當中發現到大家可以看到有一些火花但是很重要的是我們全部的都是在為"},{"start":44.305,"end":71.062,"text":"我們的新年就是什麼的學齡的學童這邊來做做他們的健康啊還包括的是在地的這個食材等等的健康還有國民健康這邊去做服務那現在這個情況之下我們現在想問到的問題是在於看到我們在看下一頁因為看到很多的爭執是在於說在下一頁我新增的那一部分在於說因為是才化法還有"},{"start":72.743,"end":77.13,"text":"包括還有就是中央政府的預算這邊啊因為上個禮拜行政院提出來之後呢它的附議是沒有通過的 是被否決的然後這邊沒有確定而導致的當初"},{"start":85.799,"end":105.741,"text":"教育部在11月的時候有提出來的版本送布之後對 送院 送行政院送行政院沒錯 送院的這個情況之下呢結果就因為這個變數出現了我們還繼續跟地方政府溝通繼續跟地方政府溝通那我們也看到一件很重要的事情是在於說剛才布"},{"start":106.942,"end":118.493,"text":"市長你這邊所說的是說財務的這部分因為原來目前已經有這個補助是到74億嘛對不對然後最多最多一直在增加的話可能會到達220億嘛對不對那如果這個情況下因為我剛剛聽到一個結果很重要是說這個"},{"start":124.699,"end":138.255,"text":"因為各地在做營養午餐的這個差異性啊是有這個縣市嘛財源啊還有偏鄉供應的這個問題嘛那這種情況之下是不是在於說這個本質的性質是比較屬於地方性的"},{"start":139.494,"end":154.575,"text":"對 營養午餐其實從地方制度法來看尤其是國民中小學屬於國民教育階段本來就屬於地方的選擇對 那如果在這個情況之下在目前通過的財政收支劃分法當中增加的是3000"},{"start":157.418,"end":182.011,"text":"753億的這個情況之下地方財政授權法法地方多了3753億的情況之下如果這個市權可以獲得就是確認就是他多了這個情況之下他事實上有多的裁員去做這邊的關於新增的在如果我們訂了這個專法之後在對營養午餐的供給上有個法源讓他們更有資源去做這些事情包括的是營養師包括的是"},{"start":185.854,"end":203.448,"text":"這個執行的秘書嘛我懂委員的意思所以我們必須要再找地方政府來協商而且可能每一個地方政府對於所獲配的財源會有不同的態度願意負擔的比例跟原則也不一所以這就是很困難的地方譬如說"},{"start":204.428,"end":226.183,"text":"金門馬祖他們最近好像花蓮有比較多那他們願不願意我們過去補助偏向很多那他們願不願意多來提撥一些經費這些新增的這個稅收來源來做補助如果他們願意我們都很高興那我們中央這邊我們會如果我們在配置上能夠少一些那我們減少的部分可以減掉那"},{"start":226.963,"end":239.798,"text":"我們也可以馬上就這個法的精神來請他們一起來努力來達成那可能有些縣市他可能覺得我們過去偏鄉比較多中央補助很多那我們貨配的財源不夠我們不希望中央斷了這個補助"},{"start":241.98,"end":267.068,"text":"所以這個部分其實是有一些複雜度要去討論那真的還需要時間就是說我們也不曉得就是說環境上的變化形勢上的變化會這樣子一關過一關不過就是剛才我們所強調的不管是弱勢兒童的補助 營養午餐的補助中央廚房偏鄉計畫的補助改善或者是食材 可溯源的國產食材的補助其實我們每年都繼續在補助"},{"start":268.348,"end":295.714,"text":"那我們真的很希望今年都還在預算內那明年不要因為財化法而有了這個問題那地方又不願意負擔那這個就會變成孩子被丟包我想財化法的衝擊不應該是這樣它目的是希望中央地方有一個均衡的財源地方有一些自主的財源可是這個就真的要談到權利跟義務就是說有比較多的自主財源的權利你就有一些義務那這個部分坦白講"},{"start":296.314,"end":324.892,"text":"要從教育部的角度來談這個事情也不容易談好 但是我現在想要說的是從市長你的這個想法出來的時候就在於說的確的這個事情上面看起來是要經過了裁劃法或是說是我們現在的預算中央政府總預算通過之後當然就要看的是行政院他們的態度在十天之內是不是就公布生效或是說他要在可是不管怎樣 十天之內他要去做在這做憲法訴訟 當然都沒關係反正他 市長好像會"},{"start":326.012,"end":343.826,"text":"時間真的會生效嗎?對,那知道這個情況之下,可是它一旦生效的時候,就是必須會做,除非它都被暫時處分等等,所以可能也沒有那麼快。但是重點是在於說,我們今天要召開這樣子的一個詢問,最重要的目的是說,想要問的問題是,確定應該是有必要去遞定這個專法嗎?對不對?"},{"start":345.347,"end":368.165,"text":"我們希望能夠定,但是這遇到的問題也必須解決,現實上必須面對對,是要去定,那我們現在的在目前的這個情況之下的時候我們本黨就是也提出了我們本黨的這個意見,那我想就因為後來就是進入到修法的委會審查嘛,對不對,所以就想說的是法的精神我們會繼續討論是是是,那非常好,那我就想說,如果在這個以"},{"start":370.126,"end":390.731,"text":"以現在的我們預計說要通過的情況下尤其是責任已經是放到地方政府上面去他事實上裁員多了3000多位的情況之下您剛所說的這個部分的擔憂其實我覺得是替教育部減輕了很多負擔所以應該您要比較輕鬆但是架構這是甜蜜的負擔補助給學生是甜蜜的負擔這問題是現實上"},{"start":393.561,"end":421.815,"text":"如果沒有辦法去對所以這個就必須要靠法律上面透過這個架構法當中去做一下規範那我就想要進入到實質的部分想要針對我們民眾黨所提出來這個部分因為目前的知道的是在這個國中小這邊是有也百分之百在公立學校是這個支柱那我現在想我們民眾版的版本當中是把它提到的是說高中以下的部分那您的對這個如果高中生也納入到說可以受惠在營養午餐本您有什麼看法"},{"start":422.917,"end":444.085,"text":"我們訂的布板的法其實就只高中以下但是坦白講現在問題比較多的是國民中小學因為你知道高中生的用餐他們自主性比較強你看那些建中北一女的那個中午的時候很多那個Uber Eats他們就是自己訂餐然後自己去福利社去買他們比較不太願意但有些像地方"},{"start":444.565,"end":459.538,"text":"他是高中國中是完全中學他們也會辦可是你就會發現高中生參加的比例比較低那這部分我們認為國中小以當時中央的裁員補助地方來講那當然是國中小優先所以我們才會在大家的關心下從108年到現在"},{"start":461.34,"end":484.877,"text":"其實每年陸續的補助經費在精進項目在增加然後也繼續就管理的部分有漏洞的部分我們也增加了很多的費用來讓這個相關的權責單位能夠有工具讓這個管理更好 施安更好好 可是現在如果財化法這個真的生效之後這個部分大部分的都是屬於縣市的學校嘛 對不對所以我說財化法沒有經過討論就做這樣子坦白講我們很難去"},{"start":489.52,"end":505.723,"text":"不會 我是先替你我們一起來共同想辦法就在於說因為除了國立的這樣子的一個學校高中之外其實很多是屬於縣立縣市的基隆那這種情況之下的時候他有的財源他更可以去操作所以這部分就涉及授權的"},{"start":506.804,"end":528.028,"text":"像台北市他可能採訪法之後他會增加四百、四、五百億嘛我看到,我不知道這不是謠言嘛,但是我看到的那個表是這樣那他可能我們這個對於這個他們的孩子吃的本來就我看他們那個條件標準就比其他縣市還好他一餐可能到七十幾塊、八十幾塊甚至有的聽說到上百那在這種狀況下在補助的比例上面我們將來要怎麼談就是說我們那沒有關係對"},{"start":531.229,"end":549.961,"text":"那個次長我就先講到最後我很高興聽到說教育部的佈板當中就是有提到說把高中的上去有含高中就非常好那第二個部分呢我想要談的是說在這個公餐的形態當中因為您剛才也說了去年已經開了好幾次的公廳會這個部分那目前還是以"},{"start":550.901,"end":570.138,"text":"自設廚房為主那在其他的部分還有鄰近學校供應中央廚房或是民營的團善的供應這種情況那我們在想說在有意見當中是對民營的這個團善的供應的情況它事實上好像它只中意到所謂的統餐跟合餐"},{"start":570.798,"end":589.67,"text":"在這個地方就是因為財源的不足才有需要可是它在運送的時候可能有些問題就是它的穩定性和安全性所以在這種情況之下我們繼續說要把民營的部分把它拉進去把法律的明確性讓它有多元的前提在好運到草原的情況之下您認為這部分"},{"start":590.35,"end":606.305,"text":"有這樣多元的請第四點把它加入用合約的方式來去規範您覺得如何委員會學法律非常清楚我們在共同供應契約裡面有詳定各種包括運送過程裡面它如果被計點點數多少要罰多少錢我想都非常詳細我個人非常關心其實我參觀過很多這個公辦這個民營的那個"},{"start":610.529,"end":638.132,"text":"參和業者他們的公餐情況我們都實際上考察了那也去了解了那所以包括我也到日本去日本就純粹的公辦名言那他們把關一樣都很嚴格其實剛才有委員提到說日本的這個參和業者他們的這個幾十法每一項細項都很認真我也可以告訴我們委員其實台灣現在進步到現在也非常關心那有些個案的發生都很不幸我們也希望這些比例減少"},{"start":638.932,"end":662.854,"text":"監察院對教育部的批評要求我們也都會持續在做這是一個進步的象徵我想有批評才會改進有改進才會進步我想我們都願意細心來接受所以說在沒有修法之前我個人也非常清楚我在當委員的時候到現在他是不斷地在精進我去訪問東京的那個國小的時候他跟我說他們也可以看到台灣的食材跟這個東西如果那不是假照的話"},{"start":663.314,"end":680.778,"text":"他們認為台灣一餐60幾塊他們120塊我們吃的並不比他們差所以說這樣子的一個情況下我覺得專法如果要立它實質上的立就是希望孩子能夠得到更多孩子要得到更多我們中央地方一定要一起努力"},{"start":681.018,"end":687.381,"text":"是是是然後最後一個問題就是關於在人力的部分那人力部分當然也涉及到財務嘛對不對所以這個等到這個財務財政劃分收支法這確認的時候就可以如果是我們的地方政府拿到就沒問題但是我現在的問題是在於說可以看見出來是在營養師還有所謂執行秘書在這個儲供這些部分我們都本黨都有些提供的一些做法包括是儲供就是應該500個人的時候呢學校500人的規模的時候都要有"},{"start":711.771,"end":712.231,"text":"您對這個看法是怎麼樣?"},{"start":730.988,"end":741.981,"text":"我想委員的建議因為很多版本那民眾黨團的這個版本的建議我們一定會納入一起來參作一起來參考好不好好 謝謝那我希望在這個情況下我們看在下兩頁就在於說"},{"start":744.318,"end":765.189,"text":"有關於說這個有營養的午餐的這部分它實際上是我們整個完備營養三法的這一部分那如果把這塊部分把它加進來的話大概就是所有的我們政府跟我們民眾學生都是雙很多signing的部分那請我們部跟兩個院大家一起來合作好 謝謝委員的關心我們很感謝我們會繼續努力 謝謝好 謝謝次長跟署長 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":591,"blocks":[["劉委員書彬：（11時19分）有請張廖萬堅次長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員好。"],["劉委員書彬：次長好，我要向你說聲學長好。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝。"],["劉委員書彬：我們剛才從朝野立委關於營養午餐的詢答與說明當中，大家可以看到有一些火花，但是很重要的是我們全部都是在為我們學齡學童的健康，包括在地食材等等的健康，還有國民健康在服務。現在這個情況之下，我們現在想問的問題是，我們看到很多爭執是在於財劃法，包括中央政府的預算，上個禮拜行政院提出覆議，但覆議並沒有通過，是被否決了，因為這邊沒有確定而導致當初教育部在11月的時候提出來的版本送部之後……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，送院，送行政院。"],["劉委員書彬：送行政院，沒錯，送院的情況之下，結果就因為這個變數出現了，導致……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們還繼續跟地方政府溝通。"],["劉委員書彬：繼續跟地方政府溝通。我們也看到一件很重要的事情在於，次長你這邊所說的是財務這部分因為目前已經有補助到74億，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，每年。"],["劉委員書彬：然後最多一直再增加的話，可能會到達220億，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["劉委員書彬：如果這個情況，我剛才聽到一個結果很重要，因為各地在做營養午餐的差異性是有縣市、財源，還有偏鄉供應等等問題，在這種情況之下，是不是在於這個本質的性質是比較屬於地方性的？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，營養午餐其實從地方制度法來看，尤其是國民中小學屬於國民教育階段，本來就屬於地方的權責。"],["劉委員書彬：對。如果在這個情況之下，在目前通過的財政收支劃分法當中，增加的是3,753億的情況之下，地方多了3,753億的情況之下，如果事權可以獲得確認，就是在多了的情況之下，它事實上有多了財源去做關於新增的，如果我們訂了這個專法之後，在對營養午餐的供給上有了法源，讓他們更有資源去做這件事情，包括營養師、包括執行秘書、包括廚工……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我懂委員的意思。"],["劉委員書彬：是不是就有比較多的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我懂委員的意思，就是說我們必須要再找地方政府來協商，而且可能每個地方政府對於所獲配的財源會有不同的態度，願意負擔的比例跟原則也不一，所以這就是很困難的地方，譬如說，金門、馬祖、花蓮他們好像有比較多，我們過去補助偏鄉很多，他們願不願意多提撥一些經費，這些新增的稅收來源來做補助？如果他們願意，我們當然很高興，我們中央這邊如果在配置上能夠少一些，那我們減少的部分可以減掉，我們也可以馬上就這個法的精神請他們一起努力來達成，但可能有些縣市覺得過去偏鄉比較多，中央補助很多，所獲配的財源不夠，並不希望中央斷了這個補助，所以這個部分其實是有一些複雜度要去討論，真的還需要時間，就是說我們也不曉得環境上的變化、形勢上的變化會這樣子，一關過一關。不過，就是剛才我們所強調的，不管是弱勢兒童的補助、營養午餐的補助、中央廚房偏鄉計畫的補助改善，或者是可溯源國產食材的補助，其實我們每年都繼續在補助，我們真的很希望今年都還在預算內，明年不要因為財劃法而有了問題，地方又不願意負擔，就會變成孩子被丟包，我想財劃法的衝擊不應該是這樣，它目的是希望中央、地方有一個均衡的財源，地方有一些自主的財源，可是這個就真的要談到權利跟義務，就是有比較多的自主財源的權利，就有一些義務。"],["劉委員書彬：對。"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個部分坦白講，要從教育部的角度來談這個事情也不容易談。"],["劉委員書彬：好，但是我現在想要說的是，次長，你這個想法出來的時候就在於，的確這個事情看起來是要經過財劃法，我們說是我們現在的預算，就是中央政府總預算通過之後，當然就要看行政院他們的態度，因為在10天之內是不是就公布生效，或是說他要……可是不管怎麼樣，10天之內要再去做憲法訴訟，那都沒關係，反正至少10天之內會生效。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，委員學法律應該知道……"],["劉委員書彬：對，知道這個情況之下，可是它一旦生效之後就是必須做，除非它被暫時處分等等，可是可能也沒有那麼快。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["劉委員書彬：但是重點在於，我們今天要召開這樣子的詢答，最重要目的，想要問的問題是確定應該有必要去訂定這個專法，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們希望能夠訂，但是遇到的問題也必須解決，現實上必須面對。"],["劉委員書彬：好，沒關係，是要去訂，在目前這個情況之下，本黨也提出本黨的意見，因為未來修法就會進入委員會審查，對不對？所以我想說的是……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，法的精神我們會繼續討論。"],["劉委員書彬：是，那非常好。我想如果以現在，我必須說是通過的情況下，尤其責任已經是放到地方政府了，事實上財源多了三千多億的情況之下，您剛剛所說的這個部分的擔憂，其實我覺得是替教育部減輕了很多負擔，所以應該你會比較輕鬆，但是架構……"],["張廖次長萬堅：這是甜蜜的負擔，補助給學生是甜蜜的負擔，但問題是現實上如果沒有辦法去……"],["劉委員書彬：對，所以這就必須要靠法律上透過這個架構法當中去做一下規範。我就想要進入到實質的部分，想要針對我們民眾黨所提出來這個部分，因為目前知道的是國中小這邊是有，而且公立學校是百分之百有資助，我們民眾黨的版本當中是把它提到高中以下的部分，您對於將高中生也納入營養午餐可以受惠，你有沒有什麼看法？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們訂的部版的法其實就指高中以下。"],["劉委員書彬：喔，真的太好了。"],["張廖次長萬堅：但是坦白講，現在問題比較多的是國民中小學，因為你知道高中生的用餐，他們自主性比較強，你看建中、北一女中午的時候很多Uber Eats，他們就是自己訂餐，然後自己去福利社買，他們比較不太願意，有些地方的高中、國中是完全中學，他們也會辦，可是你就會發現高中生參加的比例比較低，這部分我們認為國中小，依當時中央財源補助地方來講，當然是以國中小優先，所以我們才會在大家關心下，從108年到現在，其實每年陸續的補助經費在精進、項目在增加，然後也繼續就管理的部分、有漏洞的部分，我們也增加了很多費用讓相關的權責單位能夠有工具，讓管理更好、食安更好。"],["劉委員書彬：好。可是如果財劃法真的生效之後，大部分都是屬於縣市的學校嘛，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以我說財劃法沒有經過討論就做這樣子，坦白講，我們很難去……"],["劉委員書彬：不會，我們現在一起來共同想辦法，因為除了國立高中學校之外，其實很多是屬於縣市的……"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，完全中學。"],["劉委員書彬：在這種情況之下，它有了財源，更可以去操作，所以這部分就涉及授權縣市政府去進行。"],["張廖次長萬堅：像臺北市在財劃法修正之後增加四、五百億，我不知道這是不是謠言，因為我看到那個表是這樣，他們的孩子所吃的，我看他們那個條件標準本來就比其他縣市還好了，一餐可能到七十幾塊、八十幾塊，甚至聽說有的到上百，在這種狀況下，在補助的比例上面，我們將來要怎麼談？就是說，我們現在……"],["劉委員書彬：那沒有關係，次長，我很高興聽到教育部部版當中就有提到把高中包含上去。"],["張廖次長萬堅：有含高中。"],["劉委員書彬：這就非常好。第二個部分我想要談的是供餐的型態，您剛才也說去年已經開了好幾次公聽會，目前還是以自設廚房為主，在其他部分，還有鄰近學校供應、中央廚房，或是民營團膳供應這種情況，有意見的是民營團膳供應的情況，好像只有桶餐跟盒餐。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對。"],["劉委員書彬：這個地方就是因為財源不足才有需要，可是在運送上可能有些問題，就是穩定性跟安全性，所以在這種情況之下，我們基於要把民營部分的法律明確性，讓它更多元，以及考慮到財源的情況下，您認為這部分加入第四點，用合約的方式去規範，您覺得如何？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員是學法律的，非常清楚，我們在共同供應契約裡面有詳定各種，包括運送過程，如果被記點、點數多少要罰多少錢，我想都非常詳細，我個人非常關心，其實我參觀過很多民營餐盒業者的供餐情況，我們都實際上考察了、也去了解了，包括我也到日本去，日本就純粹的公辦民營，他們把關一樣都很嚴格。其實剛才有委員提到，日本的給食法每一項細項都很認真，我也可以告訴委員，其實臺灣進步到現在也非常關心，有些個案的發生都很不幸，我們也希望比例減少，監察院對教育部的批評要求，我們也都會持續在做，這是一個進步的象徵，我想有批評才會改進，有改進才會進步，我們都願意虛心來接受，所以在沒有修法之前，我個人也非常清楚，我在當委員的時候到現在，它是不斷地在精進。我去訪問東京那個國小的時候，跟我說他們也可以看到臺灣的食材跟這個東西，如果那不是照假的話，他們認為臺灣一餐六十幾塊，他們要120塊，我們吃的並不比他們差，在這樣子的情況下，我覺得專法如果要立，實質上的立，就是希望孩子能夠得到更多，當孩子要得到更多，中央、地方一定要一起努力。"],["劉委員書彬：是、是、是。最後一個問題，就是關於在人力的部分，人力部分當然涉及到財務，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：是。"],["劉委員書彬：所以這個等到財政收支劃分法確認的時候就可以，如果是地方政府拿到就沒問題，但是我現在的問題是可以看出來在營養師、還有執行秘書、在廚工這些部分，本黨都有提供一些作法。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["劉委員書彬：包括學校在500人規模的時候都要有一個營養師；包括在執行秘書當中都有，因為可以跟營養師一樣；第三個部分在廚工，我們希望以日本的，但是我們在調高，因為先求有再求好，希望學校裡面大概就是1：100的比例去進行，您對這個看法是怎麼樣？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想委員的建議因為很多版本，那民眾黨團的版本建議，我們一定會納入一起來參酌、一起來參考、一起來討論，好不好？"],["劉委員書彬：好，謝謝。希望在這個情況下，我們看到關於營養午餐的部分，它實際上是整個完備營養三法的一部分，如果把這部分加下去的話，大概所有政府、民眾跟學生都是三贏的，請教育部跟兩院一起來合作，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員的關心，我們很感謝，我們會繼續努力，謝謝。"],["劉委員書彬：謝謝次長跟署長。"],["主席：謝謝劉書彬委員的質詢。","待會在陳秀寳委員質詢後，我們休息5分鐘。","接著繼續請郭昱晴委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159453","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159453","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb02114d99988c02069b06f2ced2e0bc09060f1855e115a4ba496ef8369fd87006b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:19:39 - 11:30:59","影片長度":"00:11:20","會議時間":"2025-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理(含各轉投資事業機構公股代表之董、監事)列席業務報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅則修正草案」案。\n三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案。）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T11:19:39+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T11:30:59+08:00","duration":680,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-3-20-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.14909375000000002,"end":1.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.235343750000002,"end":16.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.258468750000002,"end":29.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.84909375,"end":31.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.637843750000002,"end":33.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.52346875,"end":35.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.463468750000004,"end":41.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.070968750000006,"end":42.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.674093750000004,"end":48.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.664718750000006,"end":68.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.35784375,"end":81.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.92534375000001,"end":117.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.86909375,"end":138.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.77284375000002,"end":175.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.08034375,"end":170.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.87721875,"end":177.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.37471875,"end":186.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.16346875000002,"end":178.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.07471875000002,"end":181.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.77471875,"end":182.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.76971875,"end":253.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.19096875000002,"end":191.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.20784375000002,"end":191.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.25846875000002,"end":191.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.76409375,"end":196.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.96909375,"end":207.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.01971875,"end":207.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.03659375,"end":207.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.10409375,"end":207.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.12096875,"end":207.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.08471875,"end":250.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.24909375000001,"end":259.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.77596875,"end":254.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.56471875,"end":256.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.24346875000003,"end":261.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.40784375000004,"end":266.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.68971875,"end":273.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.92096875000004,"end":281.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.99534375,"end":296.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.19159375000004,"end":299.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.46971875,"end":306.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.18221875,"end":301.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.59909375,"end":314.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.08721875000003,"end":324.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.38534375,"end":345.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.00846875,"end":333.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.08284375,"end":344.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.82096875,"end":349.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.74034375,"end":348.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.39409375,"end":362.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.58596875,"end":376.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.83346875,"end":373.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.20846875,"end":385.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.25346875,"end":389.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.79284375000003,"end":427.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.07534375,"end":391.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.01971875000004,"end":396.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.19534375,"end":406.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.80971875,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.26909375,"end":420.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.41596875000005,"end":427.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.17096875000004,"end":446.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.45471875000004,"end":459.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.58909375,"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謝謝主席那我們請財政部莊部長莊部長"},{"start":40.515,"end":67.935,"text":"委員好部長好 辛苦了這個在3月6號的時候財政部有邀請這個學者專家還有地方政府來開會那在開會呢主要還是在討論這個財化法的這個統籌分配款的這個分配的公式還有它的權重那我看這個我們財政部跟主席處也有出來開記者會然後有三點的共識第一個就是說這個財權跟市權呢要做調整"},{"start":69.036,"end":81.435,"text":"然後不過地方政府對於市權調整呢也還不確定因為這要看中央政府怎麼再去跟地方政府做協調這是第一點那第二點呢就是說這個在水平的分配的這部分呢"},{"start":82.099,"end":104.093,"text":"包含這個財政的努力跟基本的建設大概分這兩類我看這個地方政府也沒有太大不同的意見當然這個細目比重要怎麼去做調整可能還要再討論但是大概就是分這兩類第一個就是財政努力的指標一個是基本建設的指標"},{"start":106.014,"end":116.9,"text":"接下來就是說統籌分配款的方式當然大家覺得說是不是要給地方政府更多的財政的自主權當然財化法通過之後當然地方的財政自主權會相對來提升不過這是3月6號所召開的會議"},{"start":129.026,"end":138.076,"text":"3月12號這個在野黨已經否決掉這一個財務法的復議案了那我想請問一下部長那接下來咧接下來要怎麼做"},{"start":140.13,"end":161.126,"text":"跟委員報告這個財化法其實涉及到這個各級政府的財政資源的重新分配它是非常重要所以我們一直主張不應該倉促的修法而應該做充分的討論然後有最大的共識然後一起再來做推動那當然我們在這一次的去年的12月20號三讀通過的財化法"},{"start":163.368,"end":180.319,"text":"有治案難行之處,我們已經經過行政院院會通過,懲請總統合格後提起復議那在復議裡面我們也寫得非常的清楚,第一個就是說對我知道,但是復議的結果復議的結果就是沒有通過,就是沒有通過復議就是維持原案但是我們認為接下來的問題就是說"},{"start":186.943,"end":206.312,"text":"首先以114年來計算的話初估計算的話中央的稅款要多支出3753億這是一個第二個新修的法案又說不可以減少一般性的補助款換言之中央的整個財政會割出去很大一塊"},{"start":207.052,"end":218.78,"text":"那這樣的在市權沒有調整的情況下中央的施政就會有很大的困難也就是說他很多沒有辦法推展那主計總署也提出來了扣除你114年的稅出來出估來算的話3兆1扣掉法律義務支出1兆8剩下1兆3而要割出3753億情況下"},{"start":227.566,"end":246.676,"text":"各個部位可能都要同產28%的影響所以這個部分是影響很大另外在水平分配給各地方政府的部分由於它分配的公式其實有很大的不清楚譬如說加起來不會等於百分之百的有些餘數就分配不出去那個序位分數法也沒有講每一個級距有多少"},{"start":248.737,"end":266.201,"text":"那在分配上就會產生困難這個是副議員沒有過以後 依然要面對我也知道財政部目前會遇到這些困難所以你們也找了地方政府來開會但是呢第一個一般性的補助款債長說你就不能少但是計畫性的補助款勒"},{"start":267.876,"end":281.662,"text":"因為一般性補助款不能少那計劃性補助款就一定會受到排擠那譬如說像這個我們計劃性補助款譬如說我們有TPAS還有一些預約津貼還有一些租金補貼這些屬於計劃型的補助那會不會受到影響"},{"start":282.562,"end":300.029,"text":"這個部分根據組總的一個計算當然會受到一個譬如說不增加這個國防預算如果還非常重要增加的話可能會減少的幅度會更大如果國防預算不受影響那其他的會增加更大嗎就差了28%各個機關的"},{"start":303.951,"end":332.793,"text":"那個經費就會減少到28%好那所以接下來是不是會跟地方政府來談就是說計劃性的補助這部分權重要去做一些調整目前第一個就是計劃性補助款有些計劃的是地方要分擔的乘數跟中央分擔的乘數可能就要做調整對啊因為地方接下來就是財政上面會比較寬裕那過去我們補助比較多的部分那當然因為現在中央沒有這麼多錢了嘛"},{"start":333.373,"end":362.894,"text":"那是不是說在這個跟中央跟地方的這個比重上面會做個調整比如說以前是8比2那現在可能改成6比4或是5比5之類的會做這些調整是是就勢必的因為是就是這樣子的面對大家要點面對好那另外一題就是說那其實各地方政府的這個總預算在去年也都通過了那接下來如果這個總統公布了這個採訪法之後那地方政府怎麼去做相對的因應呢"},{"start":365.553,"end":389.321,"text":"這個財化法總統公告以後呢後續看行政院要採取合憲合法的程序如果合在救濟那要來做這個部分要來再做思考對啊那如果啦如果所有的救濟的方式都沒辦法完成的話那我的意思是說那現在地方政府他們預算都已經也完成了那如果接下來多了這麼多預算他們怎麼去做處理"},{"start":390.321,"end":408.315,"text":"這個部分在114年的部分應該就是沒有辦法就是不會去動不會去影響因為各個地方政府可以獲配的中央統籌分配稅款必須在前一年的時候大概八月底的時候財政部就要通知各地方政府"},{"start":408.675,"end":413.661,"text":"您在明年的時候可以獲配多少中央統籌分配稅款是多少金額它會納入它的是一個年度的一個稅客收入那這個部分因為114年可以分配的金額已經在去年都通知了所以114年度我們的總不會再去做這個投薪單分配"},{"start":427.979,"end":445.86,"text":"那因為這個卓院長在總席訓練的時候他有提到因為有委員問他說財化法附議案不通過那下一步是怎麼樣卓院長曾經有提到說判題新版本因為那時候你也在場那可不可以解釋一下卓院長這句話的意思是什麼意思"},{"start":447.506,"end":460.195,"text":"左院長當時有提就是說其實在去年的時候就院長有去左院長有去到立法院去做相關的溝通也希望說才化法的修正可以"},{"start":460.868,"end":480.888,"text":"在做一個比較詳盡的一個討論而在半年以後提出版本但是問題是12月20號還是通過了那個我不知道就是黨團那個國民黨團提的一個版本那接下來呢我們可能就要面對一個新的財化法的一個後續的作業要有什麼樣方式來處理對那所以"},{"start":483.47,"end":508.756,"text":"那其實在3月6號的時候我們財政部也邀集了專家學者以及各地方政府來召開所謂的諮詢會議諮詢會議裡面最主要是聽聽大家在爭取大家的意見看大家的一些看法那專家學者的意見以及各地方政府都有表達具體的意見以及我們其實在會上如同剛剛委員所說的我們也提出了相關的財政努力跟基本建設那所以就算是"},{"start":510.376,"end":532.87,"text":"他們也都有一些意見提出來,都會納入我們的一個參考所以說就算是這個副院部通過維持原決議那3月6號所討論的那一些指標還會繼續再跟我們地方政府再做溝通,再跟他們做確認那所弄出來的可能就會比較是接近朝野的共識就對了"},{"start":534.17,"end":541.477,"text":"我們會持續的跟各地方政府來做討論跟溝通,持續的,對對對好,那最後有點時間我再問一下現在這一個有關中國的這些啤酒傾銷到台灣然後也有這個協會他們提出了反傾銷稅的調查那我想請問一下,目前的進度怎麼樣?"},{"start":559.414,"end":571.282,"text":"有關啤酒跟鋼瓶的部分我們在3月11號已經公告了也就是說我們開了關稅稅率審議小組的會議然後啟動了調查也就是說經濟部去調查對於國內產業的初步調查有沒有損害以及財政部要後續調查有沒有"},{"start":579.066,"end":592.334,"text":"有沒有傾銷的一個事情然後再來決定要不要臨時課徵反傾銷稅然後再做一個最後的一個調查跟確定以後如果確實有傾銷事實而且損害到國內產業那就是課徵反傾銷稅這個目前都在積極的進行當中因為涉及到財政部跟經濟部嘛對不對那接下來是經濟部會去做這個調查"},{"start":605.442,"end":629.291,"text":"經濟部會去做調查我看這個時程預估大概4月20號經濟部會完成初步的調查那接下來就是財政部就經濟部的調查就是這個你們會做初步的認定那你們做初步的認定的話如果認為說的確它有涉及到這個請銷的話那你們是不是可以最快在什麼時候可以課徵反請銷稅看一下署長"},{"start":634.787,"end":649.08,"text":"報告委員,那依照時程的話最快應該是在六月底到七月初啦,最快最快嘛,最快就是說如果調查出來的確是有這個請銷的話所以最快在這一個六月底七月初就可以課徵反請銷稅了?臨時,課徵臨時反請銷稅那稅率咧?"},{"start":656.452,"end":676.988,"text":"要看那個傾銷差率去計算它可能都不一樣每個廠商可能都會不一樣我們要去算它個別的傾銷差率沒有配合調查的廠商就會有一個一致性的一個傾銷差率去適用OK好那麻煩注意一下這個時程了好謝謝主席謝謝部長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":867,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時20分）謝謝主席，請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，辛苦了。在3月6號的時候，財政部有邀請學者專家及地方政府來開會，主要還是在討論財劃法統籌分配款的分配公式及權重，我看財政部跟主計總處也有出來開記者會，有三點共識，第一個，財權跟事權要做調整，不過地方政府對於事權調整也還不確定，因為這要看中央政府怎麼再去跟地方政府做協調，這是第一點。第二點，在水平分配的部分，包含財政努力跟基本建設，大概分這兩類，我看地方政府也沒有太大不同的意見，當然細目比重要怎麼去做調整，可能還要再討論，但是大概就分這兩類，一個是財政努力的指標，一個是基本建設的指標。接下來是統籌分配款的方式，當然大家覺得是不是要給地方政府更多的財政自主權，財劃法通過之後，當然地方的財政自主權會相對提升。不過這是3月6號所召開的會議，但是3月12號在野黨已經否決掉財劃法的覆議案，我想請問一下部長，接下來要怎麼做？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，財劃法其實涉及到各級政府財政資源的重新分配，它是非常重要的，所以我們一直主張不應該倉促修法，而應該做充分討論，有最大的共識再一起做推動。當然在去年12月20號三讀通過的財劃法有窒礙難行之處，我們已經經過行政院院會通過，陳請總統核可後提起覆議，在覆議裡面我們也寫得非常清楚，第一個……"],["李委員坤城：這我知道，但是覆議的結果就是不通過。"],["莊部長翠雲：覆議的結果就是沒有通過，就是否決覆議，維持原案。"],["李委員坤城：對，所以我想問接下來……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們認為接下來的問題，首先以114年來粗估計算的話，中央的稅款要多支出3,753億，這是一個；第二個，新修的法案又提到不可以減少一般性補助款，換言之，中央的整個財政會割出去很大一塊，在事權沒有調整的情況下，中央的施政就會有很大的困難，也就是它很多沒有辦法推展。主計總處也提出來了，以114年的歲出來粗估計算的話，三兆一扣掉法律義務支出一兆八，剩下一兆三，而在要割出3,753億的情況下，各個部會可能都會有通刪28%的影響，所以這個部分是影響很大的。","另外，在水平分配給各地方政府的部分，由於分配的公式其實有很大的不清楚，譬如加起來不會等於百分之百，有一些餘數就分配不出去，而序位分數法也沒有提到每一個級距有多少，在分配上就會產生困難，這個是覆議沒有過以後依然要面對的。"],["李委員坤城：部長，我也知道財政部目前會遇到這些困難，所以你們也找了地方政府來開會，但是第一個，關於一般性補助款，在野黨說不能少，但是計畫型補助款呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為一般性補助款不能少，那計畫型補助款就一定會受到排擠。"],["李委員坤城：對，像計畫型補助款，比如TPASS、育兒津貼及租金補貼都是屬於計畫型補助，會不會受到影響？"],["莊部長翠雲：關於這個部分，根據主總的計算，當然會受到影響，譬如如果國防預算還非常重要，要增加的話，可能減少的幅度會更大。"],["李委員坤城：如果國防預算不受影響，其他的會增加更大嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：那就差了28%，各個機關的經費就會減少到28%。"],["李委員坤城：所以接下來是不是會跟地方政府來談，就是計畫型補助款這部分的權重要去做一些調整？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，關於計畫型補助款，有些計畫是地方要分擔的成數跟中央要分擔的成數可能就要做調整。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！因為接下來地方的財政上面會比較寬裕，過去我們補助比較多的部分，當然因為現在中央沒有這麼多錢了，是不是中央跟地方的比重上面會做個調整？比如以前是8比2，現在可能改成6比4或是5比5之類的，會做這些調整？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，勢必的，因為就是這樣子，大家得要面對。"],["李委員坤城：好。另外一題，其實各地方政府的總預算在去年也通過了，接下來如果總統公布這個財劃法之後，地方政府怎麼去做相對的因應呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：總統公告財劃法以後，後續看行政院要採取合憲合法的程序來如何救濟，這個部分要來再做思考。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！如果所有的救濟方式都沒辦法完成的話，我的意思是說，現在地方政府他們預算都已經也完成了，如果接下來多了這麼多預算，他們怎麼去做處理呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：在114年的部分，應該就是沒有辦法，就是不會去動、不會去影響。"],["李委員坤城：不會去動？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，因為各個地方政府可以獲配的中央統籌分配稅款必須在前一年大概8月底的時候，財政部就要通知各地方政府在明年的時候可以獲配的中央統籌分配稅款是多少金額，這會納入他們次一個年度的稅課收入，這個部分因為114年可以分配的金額已經在去年都通知了，所以114年度我們不會再去做重新分配。"],["李委員坤城：不會再去做？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["李委員坤城：卓院長在總質詢的時候有提到，因為有委員問他財劃法覆議案不通過，那下一步是怎麼樣？卓院長曾經提到說：盼提新版本。因為那時候你也在場，可不可以解釋一下，卓院長這句話的意思是什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：卓院長當時提到的是，其實在去年的時候，卓院長有到立法院做相關的溝通，也希望財劃法的修正可以再做一個比較詳盡的討論，而在半年以後提出版本，但問題是12月20號還是通過了……我不知道，就是國民黨團提的一個版本，接下來我們可能就要面對新財劃法的後續作業要由什麼樣的方式來做處理。"],["李委員坤城：對，所以呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：其實在3月6號的時候，財政部也邀集了專家學者以及各地方政府來召開所謂的諮詢會議，諮詢會議裡面最主要也是聆聽大家的意見，徵詢大家的看法，包括專家學者的意見，以及各地方政府都有表達具體的意見，以及我們其實在會上，如同剛剛委員所說的，我們也提出了相關的財政努力跟基本建設的指標跟權重……"],["李委員坤城：好，所以就算是……"],["莊部長翠雲：但是他們也都有提出一些意見，我們都會納入參考。"],["李委員坤城：好，所以就算覆議案不通過，維持原決議，那3月6號所討論的那一些指標，還會繼續再跟地方政府溝通，再跟他們確認，所弄出來的可能就會比較接近朝野的共識就對了？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會持續地跟各地方政府來討論跟溝通，會持續的。"],["李委員坤城：好，最後一點時間，我問一下，有關中國的啤酒傾銷到臺灣，然後也有協會提出了反傾銷稅的調查，我想請問一下，目前的進度怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關啤酒跟鋼品的部分，我們在3月11號已經公告了，也就是說我們已召開關稅稅率審議小組會議，啟動了調查，也就是說經濟部要初步調查國內產業有沒有損害，以及財政部後續要調查有沒有傾銷的事情，再來決定要不要課徵臨時反傾銷稅，然後再做最後的調查跟確定以後，如果確實有傾銷事實而且損害到國內產業，那就會課徵反傾銷稅，目前都在積極的進行當中，時程也都安排出來了。"],["李委員坤城：因為此事涉及到財政部跟經濟部嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，是的。"],["李委員坤城：接下來是經濟部會去做初步調查？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，經濟部會去做調查。"],["李委員坤城：我看預估的時程，大概4月20號經濟部會完成初步調查，接下來是財政部就經濟部的調查做初步的認定，如果初步認定的確有涉及傾銷的話，你們最快什麼時候可以課徵反傾銷稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：請署長說明。"],["李委員坤城：好，請署長。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，依照時程最快應該是在6月底到7月初，最快。"],["李委員坤城：最快嘛？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["李委員坤城：最快就是說，如果調查出來的確有傾銷的話，最快在6月底7月初就可以課徵反傾銷稅了？"],["彭署長英偉：臨時，課徵臨時反傾銷稅。"],["李委員坤城：對，臨時的，那稅率咧？"],["彭署長英偉：要看傾銷差率去計算，可能都不一樣。每個廠商可能都會不一樣，有來配合調查的廠商，我們要去算他個別的傾銷差率；沒有配合調查的廠商，就會適用一個一致性的傾銷差率。"],["李委員坤城：OK，好，那麻煩注意一下這個時程，好不好？謝謝。謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝坤城委員。接著請羅明才委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159452","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159452","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb07ac749e9e73b00274aa23c349ee8e69360f1855e115a4ba45217a0206b96f6855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:12:17 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謝謝主席接下來有請人事長有請我們人事長委員長好 人事長早安我們來看一下我要先肯定我們在去年12月13號人事總署這邊啟動了職場霸凌案件通報平台這個平台已經開始運作了我們看到資料從12月13號"},{"start":27.202,"end":41.392,"text":"到2月28號目前呢收件數327在處理的138撤案的時期已經結案的172所以呢最後霸凌調查成立的目前看到的數字是1.7%"},{"start":43.473,"end":59.027,"text":"那我當然不是這個霸凌處理或者是討論的專家但是我想要跟任市長分享一個可能性我們來討論看看我相信很多人看到這個1.7%只有三個案子成立我覺得很多人一定會滿頭問號"},{"start":62.669,"end":77.536,"text":"會認為這個比例好像有一點不是太合乎我們一般人日常生活經驗中的了解更何況是非常多行政機關大家所擔心的問題那我們來看一下如果我們來看一個個案來下一張"},{"start":79.597,"end":101.447,"text":"這邊這個案子我當然就不點名是哪一個單位不過因為它是發生在人事單位的這個報告裡面是這樣寫的他說呢另有冷嘲熱諷以及咆哮的行為可是呢就這個提出來的個案它所能夠提供的證據只能證明被申訴人偶有上開行為"},{"start":102.688,"end":120.783,"text":"就是好像看不出那個頻率跟次數有多麼密集也不是很確定到底是不是很多很多這樣子所以決定不成立這個案子應該是不成立我再次強調我尊重專業的認定跟判斷那可是我要提醒人是這樣我覺得這真的"},{"start":122.765,"end":141.944,"text":"跟我們一般的認知除了從數字端剛我說的數字端到這個報告但我想要分享另外一個我們之前在教育部也處理非常多校園裡面師對生 生對生甚至是生對師都有可能的相關霸凌的"},{"start":143.706,"end":172.405,"text":"邏輯我們是這樣想的本來以前在校園裡面我們來看一下下一張這是你們目前給我們的流程如果我們參考校園裡面以前在校園裡面我們確實也有遇到過這種到底情況如何認定誰說了算頻率要多少次數要多少或者是那個樣態要長成什麼樣子我們才可以被認定為大齡成立這個對孩子的權益或是對在校園裡面老師的權益對行政委員權益非常的重要"},{"start":173.025,"end":194.972,"text":"後來呢在霸凌防制準則裡面呢教育部潘部長在卸任前他們整個學特斯結合非常多專家學者會議開了非常非常多的會也聽了校園裡面的意見也聽了兒少代表的意見大家後來決定是只要有單獨一次"},{"start":196.212,"end":217.653,"text":"有人提出申訴就必須要開相關的委員會積極的討論跟去判斷這件事情以前是如果只有一次單次事件他們連開都不開會那開會之後要不要成立我們當然交由專業的委員會那我們回到委員會的機制委員會的機制他們甚至後來因為學校裡面師師相護的狀態其實"},{"start":222.301,"end":240.667,"text":"很常聽見當然不是全台灣的老師都這樣可是因為有非常多的案件像之前很嚴重的封中後來小孩是自殺墜樓這個事件讓我們更努力去想我們如何避免實施相互所以後來教育部他們就決定成立一個外部人才資料庫"},{"start":241.627,"end":259.461,"text":"也就是他們受過一些受過專業訓練的人被教育部放在這個人才資料庫裡面所以如果學校要啟動相關霸凌事件調查的時候他就必須要去這個資料庫裡面找人或者是有相關的機制也就是他不是只是學校裡面去找"},{"start":260.442,"end":286.273,"text":"那確保這個公平性那不管是加害者或者是被申訴的人被申訴的人就是加害者或者是受害者大家都會覺得這樣感覺公平一點公開一點透明一點大家比較願意信任這個機制站在保護為上我非常感謝教育部做這個改革但因為我剛剛已經先說我非常感謝人事總處先開啟了這個通報平台但是我在想我們可不可以後續在這個平台"},{"start":287.473,"end":314.15,"text":"後續其他的配套上我們可以更細緻包含我剛說的可不可以有人才資料庫或者是相關的時間點或者是這個如何認定這件事情我認為平台是良善的第一步我們後續可不可以為這些行政機關裡面的人再多做一點 多做一點讓所有這些還願意留在行政機關為民服務的公務員不管他是基層 不管他是長官不管他是階級比較大的"},{"start":314.69,"end":338.586,"text":"他們都可以好好安心的工作為人民服務我想要問一下董事長你的意見這問題裡面大概有兩個部分一個人才資料庫的問題事實上前陣子我到一些縣市去他們我們人事主管有跟我們反映因為那些人要找大概就是心理師或者精神醫師或者律師事實上我有建議他們"},{"start":340.227,"end":367.466,"text":"就是建一個類似人才資料庫的概念因為現在的人說這個台北分他都被各個機關booking很忙所以上一年12月去的時候他說有些是要輪到今年的4月那個當事人才有空所以剛才委員提的那個人才資料庫的概念是非常好讓這一些有需要的機關學校他可以從人才資料庫有更完整的選材的"},{"start":369.707,"end":398.566,"text":"各位因為我們現在的一個參議的外部委員基本上要超過一半所以要把這些人全部都找齊這個時間有時候也坦白講不方便所以有些機關他們開這個調查會的時候有時候是早上8點就開始開有些是中午有些是要當晚或晚上來開剛才委員這一個資料我想我們會去補充這方面的資料"},{"start":399.687,"end":423.093,"text":"就是處理的類似QA的部分我們也會把它放進來因為每一個機關的承辦人員因為經驗的問題或者判斷的問題有時候該怎麼處理我們會把過去累積的一個經驗也放在這個平台讓這些同仁可以進來reference有一個比較完整的QA有一點類似知識庫的這個概念"},{"start":423.353,"end":441.507,"text":"好 太好了我很開心聽到人士長正向的回應還有一個我覺得可能很細緻但是可能對於被害人會有很重要的保護作用跟宣示作用代表我們行政院對這件事情就是有態度的也就是目前在教育端的做法是會對於當事人有調離限制的配套設計我們有機會嗎"},{"start":444.669,"end":472.836,"text":"我們目前就是已經在這樣做了目前已經這樣做了嗎以人種的我們的做法是這樣所以我們是有一個公文下去希望所有行政機關都用這個配套但是我們這樣人因為他那個霸凌的那個嚴重程度不大一樣而且他要安排他的職缺的問題有些是職缺的安排有些霸凌的狀況當事人的一個scenario不一樣所以他們會有不一樣的一個安排"},{"start":473.936,"end":499.538,"text":"會有不一樣的安排好那意思就是說我們目前你的態度是支持的而且我們相關的做法有相關的公文或是行政命令下去了嗎讓各個機關知道說不是只有您在這邊宣示而是我們真的有這個可能性可是我剛剛已經說了它是配套那如果在人力的調度上有困難我們要怎麼來積極面對我覺得這是後續要討論的這不是我們今天在這邊討論完但是我就是提出一個提醒好"},{"start":501.04,"end":528.041,"text":"我們再跟同仁討論看看就是要如何來協助各個人事機關如果遇到有霸凌的那個把他的普及權去做調離限職的應該就是很清楚就叫做調離限職的配套設計好最後一個如果我是被害人然後我對於相關的處理結果我認為我不滿意我不接受那有遇到調查爭議的時候我們上級機關介入調查申訴機制目前這部分有開啟了嗎"},{"start":529.358,"end":535.445,"text":"有有有 因為我們已經有開啟了所以一樣嘛 也是你知道但是我們所有的行政機關都知道"},{"start":536.348,"end":560.621,"text":"有的我們有發文過你要上級機關要介入因為現在像有些部會就已經上級在介入直接協助好那這個部分我們也會再跟任總這邊釐清我覺得確實如果我們有這麼多積極的作為包含你剛剛也已經承諾了人才資料庫你也很認同我們就往這個方向一起來努力我們讓更多所有這些為大家服務的公務員真的覺得政府有跟大家站在一起好不好好"},{"start":561.721,"end":585.579,"text":"那接下來我們來看我還有40秒好再來我們談到關於行政法人的評鑑行政法人的評鑑當然目前的KPI是法人自己訂然後監督機關來審核然後評鑑小組來評分那我們看到其實常常有很多的法人其實大家對於他們的服務跟表現狀態是有些疑慮的以我過去在教委我們看到國訓中心裡面常常很多讓人家冒頭冒問號這樣子我想問一下這幾年的評鑑狀況"},{"start":591.644,"end":615.527,"text":"或者是人種這邊有沒有什麼可能性來談這個事情當然我知道權責跟相關的分工可是我們可不可以更積極來面對這個事情基本上我跟委員報告這些都有它的主管機關像文化部的教育部那我們從行政法人的一個主管機關我們事實上也有在努力"},{"start":617.148,"end":630.216,"text":"第一個吹你的問題啦,我說真的第一個吹你的問題第二個是awareness的問題我們希望說讓更多人了解行政法人他的角色的扮演他應該怎麼處理,坦白講有"},{"start":632.014,"end":656.43,"text":"我承認我們還有努力的空間所以我們確實認同還有一定的機制跟相關的可能性去調整他們的awareness也好你剛說他們的awareness或者是他們的training確實都需要人總這邊更積極的不要說是插手啦而是有一些機制去讓這件事情變得更好對不對不要讓大家覺得我們好像就是自己給自己打分數啦"},{"start":658.59,"end":665.884,"text":"這有一點類似我們在訂一個guideline給他們然後也必須要去practice所以這個guideline是有機會在多久以內訂出來?"},{"start":668.041,"end":681.379,"text":"目前都有 可是我覺得就是剛才我跟委員報告的就是 awareness 跟 training 的部分我們還要再加強那相關的機制我們今天就不在這裡討論我們辦公室之後再跟你們實質開會討論我們會把一些相關資料先送委員辦公室上考好 謝謝人長好 謝謝陳培宇陳委員 接下來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":746,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時12分）謝謝主席。有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：人事長早安。我們來看一下，我要先肯定去年12月13日人事總處啟動職場霸凌案件通報平臺，這個平臺已經開始運作了。資料顯示，從12月13日到2月28日，收件數為327，在處理的138，撤案的17，已經結案的172，所以霸凌調查成立的，目前看到的數字是1.7%。我不是處理霸凌或討論的專家，但我想要跟人事長分享一個可能性，同時討論看看。","我相信看到1.7%、只有三個案子成立時，很多人會滿頭問號，會認為比例好像不太合乎一般人日常生活的經驗與了解，何況這是非常多行政機關中大家所擔心的問題。我們來看一個個案。","這個案子我就不點名是哪一個單位，不過是發生在人事單位。報告是這樣寫的，另有冷嘲熱諷以及咆哮的行為。由於該案所能夠提供的證據，只能證明被申訴人偶有上開行為，也就是看不出頻率與次數有多麼密集，也不是很確定到底是不是很多，所以決定不成立，這個案子不成立。我再次強調，我尊重專業的認定跟判斷，可是我要提醒人事長，這跟我們一般的認知不同，不管是從數字端還是報告均如此。","我想分享另外一件事。之前教育部也處理非常多校園裡師對生、生對生，甚至是生對師，都有可能發生霸凌的邏輯，我們是這樣想的。我們來看一下，這是你們給的流程，以前在校園裡確實有遇過到底該如何認定的情況，誰說了算？頻率要多少？次數要多少？樣態要長成什麼樣子才可以被認定為霸凌成立？這對孩子的權益或對在校園裡老師的權益及行政人員的權益非常重要。在霸凌防制準則裡，教育部潘部長卸任前，學特司結合非常多專家學者開了非常、非常多的會，也聽了校園裡的意見及兒少代表的意見，大家後來決定：只要單獨一次有人提出申訴，就必須召開相關委員會積極討論並判斷這件事情。以前如果只有一次單次事件，他們連會都不開；至於開會之後案件要不要成立？當然交由專業委員會決定。現在回到委員會的機制來說，後來發現學校裡師師相護的狀態很常聽見，當然不是全臺灣的老師都這樣，可是因為有非常多的案件，像之前很嚴重的豐中一案，後來小孩自殺墜樓！這個事件讓我們更努力去想，該如何避免師師相護？所以教育部決定成立外部人才資料庫，也就是一些受過專業訓練的人被教育部放在人才資料庫裡，當學校啟動霸凌事件相關調查時，就必須去資料庫裡找人，這是有相關機制的。也就是並非只是從學校裡去找，以確保公平性！不管是加害者或者是被申訴的人，被申訴人就加害者或受害者，大家都會覺得公平一點、公開一點、透明一點，大家會比較願意信任這個機制。","站在保護原則上，我非常感謝教育部做了這個改革。不過我剛剛已經說過非常感謝人事總處先開啟了通報平臺，但是我在想，後續這個平臺及其他配套上可不可以更細緻？包含我剛剛說的，可不可以有人才資料庫或相關的時間點，及如何認定這件事情？我認為平臺是良善的第一步，我們後續可不可以為這些行政機關裡的人再多做一點，讓所有願意留在行政機關為民服務的公務員，不管是基層、不管是長官或階級比較大的，都可以好好安心工作，為人民服務？我想要請問人事長的意見。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這裡面大概分兩個部分：一個是人才資料庫的問題，前陣子我到一些縣市去，人事主管有跟我們反映，要找的大概就是心理師或精神醫師、律師，所以我建議他們建立類似人才資料庫的概念。說真的，這些人士都被各個機關booking了，很忙。去年12月去的時候他們說有些要等到今年4月才有空。剛才委員提到人才資料庫的概念非常好，讓有需要的機關、學校可以從人才資料庫得到更完整的選才，不用等好幾個月。基本上，現在參與的外部委員要超過一半，要把這些人全部找齊，坦白講，時間上有時候不方便。有些機關在召開調查會時，有時候早上8點就開始，有些是中午，有些是傍晚或晚上才能開。剛才委員提到這一點，我們會去補充這方面的資料。","第二個部分就是有關QA的處理，我們也會把它放進來。畢竟每一個機關承辦人員囿於經驗或判斷問題，有時候該怎麼處理……所以我們會把過去所累積的經驗放在這個平臺上，讓這些同仁可以進來reference，得到一個比較完整的QA，即類似知識庫的概念。"],["陳委員培瑜：太好了，很開心聽到人事長正向的回應。還有一點，這可能很細緻，但對於被害人會有很重要的保護作用跟宣示作用，代表行政院對這件事情是有態度的。目前教育端的作法對當事人有調離現職的配套設計，我們有機會嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前就已經這樣做了。"],["陳委員培瑜：目前已經這樣做了嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：人總的作法是這樣。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以是有公文下去，希望所有行政機關都用這個配套，但是我們這樣……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為霸凌的嚴重程度不大一樣，而且有些是職缺安排的問題，有些是霸凌的狀況當事人的scenario不一樣，所以他們會有不一樣的安排。"],["陳委員培瑜：目前你的態度是支持的，而且我們相關的作法，有相關的公文或是行政命令下去了嗎？讓各個機關知道說不是只有您在這邊宣示，而是我們真的有這個可能性。可是我剛剛已經說它是配套，如果在人力的調度上有困難，我們要怎麼來積極面對？我覺得這都是後續要討論的，這不是我們今天在這邊討論完，我是提出一個提醒。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，我們再跟同仁討論看看要如何來協助各個人事機關，如果遇到霸凌，把他的position去做調離現職……"],["陳委員培瑜：應該就是很清楚，就叫調離現職的配套設計。","最後一個，如果我是被害人，我對於相關的處理結果，我認為我不滿意、我不接受，有遇到調查爭議的時候，上級機關介入調查申訴機制，目前這個部分有開啟了嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有，我們已經有開啟了。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以也是你知道，但是我們所有的行政機關都知道嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有，我們有發文過，上級機關要介入，因為現在像有些部會都已經上級在介入直接協助了。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個部分我們也會再跟人總釐清，我覺得如果我們有這麼多積極的作為，包含你剛剛已經承諾了，人才資料庫你也很認同，我們就往這個方向一起來努力，我們讓更多所有這些為大家服務的公務員，真的覺得政府有跟大家站在一起，好不好？","接下來，我還有40秒，關於行政法人的評鑑，目前的KPI是法人自己訂，監督機關來審核，評鑑小組來評分，我們看到常常有很多的法人，大家對於他們的服務跟表現狀態是有些疑慮的，以我過去在教文，我們看到國訓中心裡面，常常很多讓人家頭冒問號，我想問一下，這幾年的評鑑狀況，或者人總有沒有什麼可能性來談這個事情？我知道權責跟相關的分工，可是我們可不可以更積極來面對這個事情？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，這些都由它的主管機關，像文化部……"],["陳委員培瑜：我知道。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：像教育部，我們從行政法人的主管機關，我們事實上也有在努力。第一個，training的問題；第二個是awareness的問題，我們希望說讓更多人了解行政法人的角色扮演，它應該怎麼處理，坦白講，我承認我們還有努力的空間。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以我們還有一定的機制跟相關的可能性去調整他們的awareness也好，或者是他們的training，確實都需要人總這邊更積極的作法，不要說是插手，而是有一些評鑑、機制去讓這件事情變得更好，對不對？不要讓大家覺得我們好像就是自己給自己打分數啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這有一點類似我們再訂一個guideline給他們，也必須要去practice。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以這個guideline是有機會在多久以內訂出來？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前都有guideline，可是我覺得就是剛才跟委員報告的awareness跟training的部分，我們還要再加強。"],["陳委員培瑜：相關的機制我們今天就不在這裡討論，我們辦公室之後再跟你們實質開會討論。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會把一些相關資料先送委員辦公室參考。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝人長、主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。接下來請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}},{"id":"159451","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159451","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb051170f047314c9eb56c3f89dc79e7a2560f1855e115a4ba44b664da36d5803b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:11:02 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我當然是知情只是那一天主持人問我一千億這個金額你知不知道我不能夠講"},{"start":284.894,"end":291.267,"text":"所以我在講說這個一千億事實上一千億坦白講我不知道因為它是一個範圍"},{"start":292.984,"end":307.754,"text":"但是主持人問了一個非常具體的數字我沒有辦法我因為我不知道是一千億還是八百億還是一千兩百億所以我當然一千億我不知道我本來很擔心我想說怎麼會負責這個全國經濟大政的這個部長台積電這麼重大的決策我當然知道我當然知道"},{"start":323.524,"end":337.877,"text":"報告委員其實這個都是在歪樓啦對啊你想看看以你高度的智慧應該可以判斷這個事情是歪樓我個人來講我這麼重要的任務我怎麼可能不知道"},{"start":338.457,"end":342.298,"text":"因為我不希望是數字的問題所以我很擔心說這個經濟部變成文書處理單位因為畢竟經濟部尤其您就是經濟總舵手所以這一點也藉這個機會讓所有人都知道說這個是一個"},{"start":361.662,"end":370.473,"text":"我不是不知道有一些內容不能夠就其中的一個數字是 那接下來本席也想要問有關於說卓院長有講過台積電赴美投資是用"},{"start":378.102,"end":394.231,"text":"N-1的這個規定 就是說我們的美國的製程必須落後台灣廠一個世代以上那目前N-1的明文規範僅是於對中國大陸的投資那對於其他的海外市場並沒有明確的這個強制規定說要求N-1那換而言之這個N-1的原則"},{"start":400.874,"end":410.53,"text":"到目前為止是一個口頭承諾並非是一個真正具有約束力的規範那部長請問您有沒有什麼想法說要來確保這個N-1的規定落實嗎"},{"start":414.195,"end":433.257,"text":"好 報告委員我想就科學的角度來看這個命題N-1它是自然而存在的所有的企業往海外走離開了台灣到世界任何一個地方我想它一定要想去那個地方賺錢所以它不可能把一個"},{"start":435.057,"end":458.549,"text":"不確定的事實或者不穩定的製程移過去所以它自然而然在台灣一個成熟穩定可以賺錢的這個製程那美國不會給壓力嗎他們不想要最先進的製程嗎是啊它是最先進的但是最先進這裡面各位知道我們所謂半導體的製程每一個階段大概有兩年"},{"start":459.449,"end":477.999,"text":"都是在那個階段你是兩年的頭還是兩年的尾都是在那個縱裡面所以我想這個區間上面表達得非常的清楚就是失去我們的國際優勢然後目前世界上有很多的國家都有類似的國家利益防衛條款那就是說政府立法要求"},{"start":481.801,"end":507.815,"text":"具有戰略意義的公司在推動這個技術轉移啊資產重組啊甚至有涉及這個國家安全的行動時必須獲得國家政府的這個批准那以確保我們的核心技術不外流那這個就有包括說美國的這個DCRA我講我們的機關不以核准的大概有以下六項第一"},{"start":509.016,"end":534.638,"text":"影响国家安全 您刚刚所说的第二 对国家经济发展有不利影响的第三 违反国际条约或协定之义务第四 侵害智慧财产权第五 违反劳动基准法引发重大劳资纠纷尚未解决的第四 破坏国家形象所以以上六项的这一个过程之后到达我们投审会一律拒绝"},{"start":535.439,"end":554.513,"text":"是 所以我也希望說部長也要做一個把關的這個動作因為另外我們擔心的是台積電的董事會的結構它其實是日益國際化有很多其他的包括具有這個美國政府背景的這個董事那請問部長假設我做一個問題這是一個假設性的問題如果未來董事會的決策出現"},{"start":560.097,"end":583.422,"text":"台灣跟美國利益有衝突的時候我們政府有沒有什麼機制可以確保台灣的利益不受損呢我想委員您這個假設問題比較大一點是不是可以具體一下哪個地方違反什麼樣的利益就是說假設在董事會上面我們董事會決定說把先進更先進的製程違反這個N-1的話"},{"start":587.423,"end":610.54,"text":"你會 這樣怎麼辦呢請你隨身回答董事會必須要替公司提出可以賺錢盈利獲利的這樣的一個責任我們現在是在討論包括國家安全是不是這個是不可能的一個事實任何一個董事他必須要為這個公司賺錢如果假設這個公司只是賺錢然後影響到了國家安全因為現在有好幾位"},{"start":617.204,"end":643.136,"text":"這個美國人也加入了這個董事會所以呢我現在就是要提醒你提醒你務必做好準備確保台灣的經濟與技術的主導權不會受損害我們主管機關我剛才已經跟您報告了那個六項它只要影響國家的安全或者影響國家的經濟跟不利的影響這個我們不會允許好 加油謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":580,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（11時11分）主席，我想請郭部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，早安。總統府在去年6月有成立了全社會防衛韌性委員會，首次實地的演練已經規劃3月27號在臺南舉行，據我所知，這一次經濟部也受邀參加演習，不曉得部長知不知道這件事情？"],["郭部長智輝：知道。"],["張委員嘉郡：那這次經濟部負責的部分是哪一個部分呢？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是生活上面的部分。"],["張委員嘉郡：你們參加的大概會是哪一些單位呢？"],["郭部長智輝：這個我……"],["張委員嘉郡：不知道？"],["郭部長智輝：請司長跟你報告好嗎？"],["張委員嘉郡：好，你說，大概是哪一些單位會參加呢？"],["胡司長文中：您說的是……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以司長也不知道？"],["胡司長文中：這個應該是內政部辦的，我們經濟部……"],["張委員嘉郡：是內政部啊！基本上是總統府的委員會辦的，但是經濟部這一次也在被邀請的範圍之內，那本席現在就是想請問經濟部參加的是哪些單位、哪些人員、大概有多少人，所以目前是司長、部長、所有經濟部的所屬單位都不知道嗎？"],["胡司長文中：不是，跟委員報告，因為目前這個活動還在規劃當中……"],["張委員嘉郡：是在3月27日，下個禮拜就要開始了，你們都還不知道是誰要參加！"],["郭部長智輝：我們是配合單位。"],["胡司長文中：第一個，我們是配合單位。第二個，因為是涉及到演習，它是形同演習，所以我們可能不方便在這個地方提出，會等到已經確定了以後，再由內政部還有國土辦統一向外界說明。"],["張委員嘉郡：我希望你們可以儘快的理解一下到底是誰會參加，是台電嗎？是中油嗎？還是台糖也要參加？還是水利署也要參加？這個總是要有一個方向吧！如果假設是民生，就像部長講的是生活的話，我們也想要理解大概是哪些單位會參加啊！去年經濟部就有說要增加天然氣的儲存量到14天，但是據我所知，目前的安全存量才1個禮拜左右，這是在沒有任何危機發生的情況之下，假設真的不幸有危機發生的話，天然氣馬上就無法使用了，那目前經濟部有沒有做過推演，照我們的這個備援計畫，臺灣大概可以撐幾天呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，關於你所指正的這些部分，我想我們都有備援的計畫，那有一些備援計畫的內容不便在這裡跟各位報告。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你不知道我們現在可以備援幾天嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：不是不知道，我們都非常清楚，但是不便在這裡報告。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以1個禮拜是準確的嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：什麼？"],["張委員嘉郡：1個禮拜是準確的嗎？這應該是公開的。"],["郭部長智輝：我們比這個要多很多，但是我們不能夠在這個地方公開地講。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，理解。"],["郭部長智輝：我們可以到委員的辦公室跟你報告。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以是可以超過1個禮拜？for sure？"],["郭部長智輝：當然是可以超過1個禮拜。"],["張委員嘉郡：太好了！部長，接下來我也想要再關心一下關於台積電的事情，台積電這個月初宣布要到美國去擴大投資的消息，很多人都擔憂我們臺灣半導體產業外移、人才流失，甚至會衝擊國家安全，但是您在廣播節目上表示，對台積電的決定您事先毫不知情，那到底是知情還是不知情呢？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我怎麼可能不知情？前一天總統跟魏董事長在公開的記者會上面已經講得很清楚，整個政府相關單位都在討論這一件事情，我當然是知情，只是那一天主持人問我知不知道1,000億這個金額，我不能夠講，所以我是在講這個1,000億，坦白講，事實上我不知道是1,000億，因為它是一個範圍，但是主持人問了一個非常具體的數字，我沒有辦法講，因為我不知道是1,000億、800億還是1,200億，所以我當然說我不知道1,000億，我是在回答這個問題，但是有很多人斷章取義，說我不知道這件事情。"],["張委員嘉郡：我理解了，我鬆了一口氣，我本來很擔心，因為我想說怎麼會負責全國經濟大政的部長對台積電這麼重大的決策……我那時候擔心說怎麼會是投審會收到申請才知道。"],["郭部長智輝：我當然知道，報告委員，其實這個都是在歪樓啦！"],["張委員嘉郡：對啊！可是本席也會擔心啊！"],["郭部長智輝：你想看看，以你高度的智慧，應該可以判斷這個事情是歪樓，以我個人來講，我這麼重要的任務，我怎麼可能不知道？"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊！因為我不希望……"],["郭部長智輝：這是斷章取義，就是問我「你知不知道100億？」而延伸到對這整個計畫不知道。"],["張委員嘉郡：是1,000億，我懂了，是數字的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：這個是非常惡質的斷章取義。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以我很擔心說經濟部變成文書處理單位，因為畢竟經濟部──尤其您就是經濟總舵手，所以這一點也藉這個機會讓所有人都知道這個是一個……"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員讓我在這個地方可以澄清我不是不知道，有一些內容不能夠就其中的一個數字，但是我要在這邊講……"],["張委員嘉郡：是，接下來本席也想要問，就是卓院長有講過，台積電赴美投資是用「N-1」的這個規定，就是說美國的製程必須落後臺灣廠一個世代以上，目前「N-1」的明文規範僅限於對中國大陸的投資，對於其他的海外市場並沒有明確的強制規定說要求「N-1」，換言之，這個「N-1」原則到目前為止只是一個口頭承諾，並非是一個真正具有約束力的規範，部長，請問您有沒有什麼想法要來確保這個「N-1」的規定落實？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想就科學的角度來看這個命題，「N-1」它是自然而存在的，所有的企業往海外走，離開了臺灣到世界任何一個地方，我想它一定是想去那個地方賺錢，它不可能把一個不確定的事實或者不穩定的製程移過去，所以它自然而然在臺灣有一個成熟、穩定、可以賺錢的製程才可能移到外面……"],["張委員嘉郡：那美國不會給壓力嗎？他們不想要最先進的製程嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！它還是最先進的，但是在最先進的這裡面，各位知道，我們所謂半導體的製程，每一個階段大概有2年都是在那個階段，你是2年的頭還是2年的尾，都是在那個zone裡面，所以我想這個區間上面表達得非常清楚。"],["張委員嘉郡：因為國人現在最擔心的就是失去我們的國際優勢，目前世界上有很多的國家都有類似的國家利益防衛條款，就是政府立法要求具有戰略意義的公司在推動技術轉移、資產重組，甚至有涉及國家安全的行動時，必須獲得國家政府的批准，以確保我們的核心技術不外流，那這個就有包括美國的ECRA。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想我們的機關不予核准的大概有以下六項，第一，影響國家安全，就是您剛剛所說的；第二，對國家經濟發展有不利影響的；第三，違反國際條約或協定之義務；第四，侵害智慧財產權；第五，違反勞動基準法，引發重大勞資糾紛而尚未解決的；第六，破壞國家形象。所以有以上六項情形之一者，到達我們投審會則一律拒絕。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，所以我也希望部長要做一個把關的動作。","另外，我們擔心的是台積電董事會的結構，它其實是日益國際化，包括具有美國政府背景的董事。請問部長，我提一個問題，這是一個假設性的問題，如果未來董事會的決策出現臺灣跟美國利益有衝突的時候，我們政府有沒有什麼機制可以確保臺灣的利益不受損呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我想委員您這個假設問題比較大一點，是不是可以具體一下，哪一個地方違反什麼樣的利益？"],["張委員嘉郡：假設在董事會上面，董事會決定把更先進的製程違反「N-1」的話，這樣怎麼辦呢？請你要審慎回答。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，董事會必須要替公司提出可以賺錢、營利、獲利的一個建議，不然其他的人不可能……"],["張委員嘉郡：但我們現在是在討論包括國家安全，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：這個是不可能的一個事實，任何一個董事，他必須要為這個公司賺錢。"],["張委員嘉郡：如果假設這公司只是為了賺錢，然後影響到了國家安全……"],["郭部長智輝：這個假設不成立，報告委員，這個假設是不成立的……"],["張委員嘉郡：因為現在有好幾位美國人也加入了董事會，我現在就是在提醒你……"],["郭部長智輝：我剛才講過了，它要怎麼樣移動，如果影響到我們臺灣的國家安全，就是不會允許他做這件事。"],["張委員嘉郡：提醒你務必做好準備，確保臺灣的經濟與技術的主導權不會受損害。"],["郭部長智輝：是，身為主管機關，我剛才已經跟您報告了那六項，它只要影響國家的安全，或者影響國家的經濟，或者有其他不利的影響，這個我們不會允許。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，加油。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：請謝衣鳯召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T11:06:58+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T11:19:00+08:00","duration":722,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":2.0222187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.91659375,"end":5.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.83534375,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.383468750000002,"end":14.138468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.04096875,"end":17.766593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.766593750000002,"end":17.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.78346875,"end":18.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.38659375,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.68159375,"end":136.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.10659375,"end":173.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.86471875,"end":211.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.07159375,"end":199.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.69409375,"end":250.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.65596875,"end":212.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.88096875000002,"end":231.31971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.25971875000002,"end":237.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.02596875,"end":248.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.33784375000002,"end":253.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.65409375000002,"end":346.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.02471875000003,"end":256.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.53096875,"end":256.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.62096875000003,"end":274.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.97534375000004,"end":275.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.75971875,"end":278.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.26034375,"end":287.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.46284375,"end":290.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.02721875000003,"end":294.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.95284375,"end":338.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.17971875,"end":344.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":347.45346875,"end":358.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.67534375,"end":361.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.59471875,"end":365.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":363.36659375000005,"end":363.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.41721875,"end":363.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":363.87284375,"end":363.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.94034375,"end":363.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":365.81346875,"end":370.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":370.53846875000005,"end":424.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.09096875,"end":400.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.72846875000005,"end":432.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":432.89159375,"end":439.62471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.27534375000005,"end":434.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.12284375,"end":438.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.03409375,"end":442.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":441.91971875,"end":442.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":443.21909375,"end":451.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.13784375,"end":450.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.58909375,"end":505.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":451.67346875000004,"end":451.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":452.11221875,"end":453.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":505.62284375,"end":548.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.54221875,"end":509.23409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.2547187499999,"end":512.3897187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.11534375,"end":513.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":549.00846875,"end":550.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.7847187500001,"end":551.0503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.25284375,"end":584.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":556.6528437500001,"end":556.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":556.9397187500001,"end":557.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.02409375,"end":557.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.51721875,"end":561.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.85409375,"end":565.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":584.8172187499999,"end":589.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.1328437500001,"end":600.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.1397187499999,"end":606.8390937500001},{"sp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林怡瑾 趙薇質詢謝主席 有請張亮次長有請次長被質詢 謝謝趙薇好次長好"},{"start":19.497,"end":25.06,"text":"吃得好 吃得健康我想不想直接影響我們孩子成長的狀況當然也影響各學生在各方面的表現所以正確的飲食跟健康觀念是跟著一個人一輩子的資產所以國家絕對有積極投資的必要"},{"start":39.309,"end":57.103,"text":"那所以在上一屆立委任期我們本席就有提出這個學校飲食法的草案這屆再提那不斷要求教育部要跟上腳步那我知道我們暢言那麼久教育部也準備那麼久終於有機會要端出演藝成果的時候"},{"start":57.944,"end":74.702,"text":"突然殺出個所謂的新版的才化法三毒從中央拿走了3700多億到地方那我們不知道說有哪些原本中央負責出錢辦理的事務那應該是跟著移轉到地方去辦理"},{"start":76.223,"end":89.094,"text":"讓許多的施政跟建設都處在一個不確定的狀況之下好那實際上教育部辦理營養午餐的業務每年本來就有固定的支出就誠如您剛剛的報告中央補助21億的午餐費那針對採用這個國產可售員食材中央是補助38億那針對偏鄉中學校的中央廚房的建置中央是補助15億"},{"start":102.705,"end":105.108,"text":"共計74億而且這是每年喔那原本由中央辦理的營養午餐的業務我們隨著這個新版的財化法上路那是否會移交到地方去那我們今天來談營養午餐專法那各委員的版本都有一些加碼的支出啦"},{"start":120.566,"end":125.311,"text":"那推估起來那應該也有26億那所以這個所謂的如果說這個營養午餐的專法如果真的通過之後那很可見的就是說整個的費用要有100億以上如果是中央來負責的話"},{"start":137.282,"end":150.189,"text":"那好那現在因為這個才化法出來了那所以中央跟地方要如何劃分這些我們都不知道所以未來分工不清楚的時候我要請教次長第一個是要叫我們把法案重新都撤回嗎那不然"},{"start":152.21,"end":153.451,"text":"我們今天談這個營養午餐的專法的所謂的加碼不是都空談嗎?"},{"start":173.032,"end":196.618,"text":"我想謝謝委員的關心其實事實上就是會遇到這樣子的一個難題就是說我們當然很希望每年這種74億的補助都能夠繼續然後這個修法的部分增加了26億中央也有財力來負擔我們一樣修法也買單那其實剛才署長跟我說其實不只是每年固定加碼的費用超過100億就是有關這個午餐專法"},{"start":199.099,"end":216.836,"text":"上路跟上路之前我們已經陸陸續續透過學校衛生法各種制度已經增加了74億每年的補助那如果說再增加26億最少那還有餐費餐費聽說還120億左右所以這個部分其實我們就是說在去年"},{"start":217.836,"end":241.049,"text":"各界的注意這關心下包括柴北部分黨派大家都希望趕快立專法所以我們也在去年大概有五次的這個座談諮詢然後在11月20做成佈板送院那一個月之後會遇到裁判法所以裁判法的衝擊那個政院方面要求我們做評估那在評估的過程裡面我們就發現說那這個中央午餐"},{"start":242.669,"end":253.795,"text":"這個營養午餐它的這個制度法地方制度法規範好像是地方的權責這是在很無奈的狀況下必須去檢討你說營養午餐是地方的國民中小學我想我剛才講的補助都是國民中小學居多那這部分我們怎麼樣子來跟地方政府再談恰談我們會盡快就是說這部分如果因為現在那個新版的裁判法已經上路那地方政府是不是願意就"},{"start":269.283,"end":275.465,"text":"這個過去已經補助的每年的74億做一些這個負擔然後這個新增的部分他們是願不願意負擔那假如都願意的話我們在這邊修這個法那個將來的權益義務可能也要一起來談那這樣子會比較能夠不去破壞到那個完整性"},{"start":287.609,"end":312.601,"text":"我們現在光是裁判法上路之後如果中央跟地方的權責不釐清將來負擔不釐清我們怎麼樣去保有孩子能夠至少這個74億不要動對於教育部國教署來講已經是一個非常頭痛的問題在裁判法上路之後那我們在心情上在修法大家講得很高興充滿理想熱情跟我以前當立委也一樣對不對"},{"start":313.741,"end":333.443,"text":"但是我們如何真的去增加這個經費然後這個經費是誰要來出這個不講清楚坦白講這個專法又會遇到新的問題過去的專法在很難整合就是說那個制度都不同有的地方是免費的有的地方是家長付費的有些部分是中央補助的"},{"start":334.304,"end":362.702,"text":"那在這種狀況下我們好不容易形成一個專法有一些共識了對可是這個現在很大的一個問題就是說那這個錢錢講起來很傷感情但是是最實際的我們中央地方怎麼樣的來來釐清這個權利跟意義我覺得這個恐怕我們必須要先去談了有一初步結果對於再進一步的把這個法請院方那邊來就是我們中央政府要好好的跟地方政府來談對 詳細我可以再請署長來補充好"},{"start":365.844,"end":380.667,"text":"就是在溝通的過程中在108以來有三個問題那有偏鄉的問題有人力的問題有餐費的問題那因為這個問題不好整合但是我們又不能等所以在109開始就先解決剛才講的三個問題的第一個問題先把偏鄉做處理"},{"start":384.748,"end":403.441,"text":"雖然沒有專法很難整合但是我們還是跨出去做了偏鄉的處理投資63億做了解決而後年度為了偏鄉每年15億加計剛才講的59億全部加起來每年從111年開始每年74億那新法修了之後不含餐費就要增加26億含餐費"},{"start":405.362,"end":432.418,"text":"要達到220億所以不含餐費的話100億含餐費要高達到220億這個得要好好跟地方政府一起來了解地方政府拿到了這些才化法的裁員之後有沒有能力跟他會怎麼規劃我們想要保障學生的權益所以制度上得要談清楚以上跟委員補充就是說如果這個談清楚之後那分配的比例也清楚了可能這個法這個院版的這個法才能成熟"},{"start":432.958,"end":461.162,"text":"譬如說我們要加碼對不對 營養師要加碼那加碼的錢是地方出還是中央出地方要補助多少像是植蜜啊 午餐植蜜啊 或是營養師啊 等等對不對所以家來對孩子好 我們都支持啦基本上方向都支持但是我們必須要為政策負責所以就必須要去講說這個問題怎麼解決那也請你們技術要談啦 好不好那另外 再來回到我們今天另外一個主題就是運動產業發展條例喔那本席剛提出版本"},{"start":461.482,"end":466.044,"text":"那當然這次主要是要修正26之2啦就是說有關於企業捐贈職業或業餘運動業或重點運動賽事免稅額的部分那現行的法規是2021我們修正的嘛那時候就是可以抵稅150%那當時本席也有參與修法"},{"start":479.668,"end":485.35,"text":"張亮 萬堅 當事委員也有一起那個時候其實我們是主張一開始我們是主張250%那因為我們先求有再求好的原則之下那財政部一直哀哀叫所以我們就用150%上路那過了三年了那現在時機成熟了嗎"},{"start":498.655,"end":513.611,"text":"那署長還是次長過了三年了就是說150%變成250%有沒有機會委員我想你知道我的心裡是期待的但是部會就是議題大家還在溝通那我們也希望"},{"start":514.591,"end":535.587,"text":"其實我們現在看到的數據每年底稅的大概額度三年了大概從11億左右去年好像11億前年10億那職業運動大概去年底的10億那當時協商的時候門檻是可以到30億那為什麼會沒有辦法用到那麼多可能有一些結構的因素那看法也不太一樣這個部分我必須承認"},{"start":536.368,"end":548.121,"text":"但是我們還是希望運動部上路之後為了優化運動產業的經營我們當然希望在租稅優惠方面能夠爭取到更大的一個額度那這部分我們就是財政部有代表來"},{"start":549.073,"end":572.095,"text":"我們是不是要請他們對啊因為體育署是說如果根據這個專戶的運作來看受證金額最多只到11億嘛那沒有達到上限30億所以稅水影響其實有限的啊那加上我們運動部再來要掛牌所以整體的運動產業要大爆發的時候所以這個時候如果不把"},{"start":573.537,"end":589.553,"text":"減免銀索稅的額度調到250%那增加這個動機讓更多企業投入運動產業那要更待何時所以這個時候是更加把握的時候對不對對 我想委員的關心有一定的這個一定會有一定的效果"},{"start":590.194,"end":613.132,"text":"好那所以我想這個再請大家努力啦那如果說讓我們如果說250%當然這是我們心目中的願想那如果財政部還是有很大很大的意見那您覺得有什麼折衷的方案嗎我想這個是列入我們院的這個優先法案所以這部分我們會再來研商"},{"start":613.752,"end":629.348,"text":"那因為委員的版本相當多朝野也都有一些不同黨派也有相同的提案所以這部分我們會持續來討論也會尊重委員的意見那我再請教一下因為之前體育署有說財政財政部要在3月14號開會討論這個議題那到底討論的狀況如何我們請財政部來說明"},{"start":640.297,"end":645.021,"text":"跟委員報告目前的現在的現行法是那個費用加成就是150嘛那150其實相當於說企業他捐贈100塊裡面有30是政府補助就政府補助的比例已經達三成其實這個是補助比例很高啦那因為企業捐贈的對象是企業他自己決定的"},{"start":661.516,"end":680.007,"text":"那政府已經配合企業他捐70塊政府已經出了30塊這個比例很高那是不是要再提高我們可以再跟這個教育部大家再一起再來可是他背後所創造的產值那是不是這樣子的來計算的好你說像我再簡單說一下像說我們因為改成150所以我們職棒變了6對這個我想知道市長最清楚"},{"start":685.891,"end":699.24,"text":"那多了台鋼雄鷹在六支隊伍之後那你看整個職棒蓬勃發展那特別是我們又拿到十二強的第一我想這個都是因為有六隊然後整個的效應所產生的所以不要簡單看這個"},{"start":701.321,"end":713.905,"text":"表面上的碎損這個背後創出了產值包括我們現在有大巨蛋也有我們台南的亞太棒球村那未來因為球場的這個規模變大然後大家球迷湧進那整個創造出來的產值包括我們亞太棒球村也有讓韓職來春訓那個整個產值大家來看韓星的啦"},{"start":723.308,"end":752.668,"text":"將來有試對 未來會有試對Okinawa 本來是日值 韓值的最佳春訓基地那他們的產值一年是上百億的那可是我們開始慢慢在經營這一塊我覺得我們未來有可能會超過Okinawa因為我們的條件都比他們更好所以我想 財政部要拜託您就是說不要看表面上的稅損或者說國家先補助多少我覺得那個背後所創造出來的產值的那個稅才是更驚人的啦"},{"start":754.208,"end":771.195,"text":"我們會跟財政部還有這個企業投資的這些企業團體來找個機會一起來溝通因為我們會盡快因為這個布板署這邊已經準備要提了那目前因為沒有共識所以我們就是用尊重立委提案的方式將來也會併審來討論OK 好 謝謝次長 謝謝署長 謝謝昭偉好 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":553,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時6分）謝謝主席，有請張廖次長。"],["主席：有請次長備詢，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：召委好。"],["林委員宜瑾：次長好。吃得好，吃得健康，我想不只直接影響我們孩子成長的狀況，當然也影響學生在各方面的表現，正確的飲食跟健康觀念是跟著一個人一輩子的資產，所以國家絕對有積極投資的必要。在上一屆立委任期，本席就有提出學校飲食法的草案，這一屆再提，不斷要求教育部要跟上腳步，我知道我們倡議了那麼久，教育部也準備了那麼久，終於有機會要端出研議成果的時候，突然殺出個所謂新版的財劃法三讀，從中央拿走了三千七百多億到地方，我們不知道有哪些原本中央負責出錢辦理的事務是要跟著移轉到地方去辦理？讓許多的施政跟建設都處在一個不確定的狀況之下。","實際上，教育部辦理營養午餐的業務，每年本來就有固定的支出，誠如您剛剛的報告，中央補助21億的午餐費，針對採用國產可溯源食材，中央是補助38億；針對偏鄉學校中央廚房的建置，中央是補助15億，共計74億，而且這是每年。原本由中央辦理的營養午餐業務，隨著這個新版的財劃法上路，是否會移交到地方去？我們今天來談營養午餐專法，各委員的版本都有一些加碼的支出，推估起來應該有26億，所以如果營養午餐專法真的通過之後，可以預見的就是整個費用要有100億以上，如果是中央來負責的話。現在因為這個財劃法出來了，所以中央跟地方要如何劃分，這些我們都不知道，所以未來分工不清楚的時候，我第一個要請教次長的是，要叫我們把法案重新都撤回嗎？不然教育部應該就是要積極地跟地方政府溝通，溝通了沒？有時間溝通嗎？因為財劃法也剛通過，地方政府的態度是怎樣？如果我們還沒有跟地方政府好好地溝通聯繫，我們今天談這個所謂的營養午餐專法加碼，不是都空談嗎？次長，你怎麼解決？"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝召委的關心，事實上就是會遇到這樣子的一個難題，我們當然很希望每年這種74億的補助都能夠繼續，然後這個修法的部分增加了26億，中央也有財力來負擔，我們一樣修法，也買單。其實剛才署長跟我說，不只是每年固定加碼的費用超過100億，有關這個午餐專法上路跟上路之前，我們已經陸陸續續透過學校衛生法、各種制度已經增加了每年74億的補助，如果再增加26億，最少，那還有餐費，餐費聽說是120億左右。所以這個部分，其實我們去年在各界的注意、關心下，朝野不分黨派，大家都希望趕快立專法，所以我們在去年大概有5次的座談諮詢，然後在11月20日做成部版送院，但一個月之後又遇到財劃法的衝擊，政院方面要求我們做評估。"],["林委員宜瑾：是。"],["張廖次長萬堅：在評估的過程，我們發現營養午餐在地方制度法規範，好像是地方的權責，這是在很無奈的狀況下，必須去檢討。"],["林委員宜瑾：你說營養午餐是地方自治項目？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，地方的國民中小學，我剛才講的補助都是國民中小學居多啦！這部分我們怎麼樣跟地方政府洽談，我們會儘快，因為新版的財劃法已經上路，地方政府是不是願意就過去已經補助的、每年的74億做一些負擔，然後新增的部分，他們願不願意負擔，假如都願意的話，我們在修這個法時，將來的權利義務可能也要一起來談，這樣子比較能夠不去破壞到那個完整性。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，因為權利義務的比例，應該也會在法裡頭。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們現在光是財劃法上路之後，如果中央跟地方的權責不釐清，將來負擔不釐清，我們怎麼樣去保有孩子……至少這個74億不要動，對於教育部國教署來講，已經是一個非常頭痛的問題，在財劃法上路之後。我們在心情上，修法大家講得很高興，充滿理想熱情，跟我以前當立委也一樣，對不對？但是我們如何真的去增加這個經費，然後經費是誰要來出，這個如果不講清楚，坦白講，這個專法又會遇到新的問題，過去的專法在於很難整合，制度都不同，有的地方是免費的，有的地方是家長付費的，有些部分是中央補助的。在這種狀況下，我們好不容易形成一個專法，有一些共識了，可是現在很大的一個問題就是這個錢，錢講起來很傷感情，但是最實際，我們中央、地方怎麼樣來釐清權利跟義務，我覺得這個恐怕我們必須要先去談，有一個初步的結果，再進一步的把這個法請院方來……"],["林委員宜瑾：就是我們中央政府要好好的跟地方政府來談。"],["張廖次長萬堅：詳細我可以再請署長補充。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，署長。"],["張廖次長萬堅：署長在第一線其實比較辛苦。"],["彭署長富源：就是在溝通的過程中，108以來有三個問題，有偏鄉的問題、有人力的問題、有餐費的問題，因為問題不好整合，但是我們又不能等，所以在109開始，就先解決剛才講的三個問題的第一個問題，先把偏鄉做處理。雖然沒有專法，很難整合，但是我們還是跨出去，做了偏鄉的處理，投資了63億做了解決，而後年度為了偏鄉每年15億，加計剛才講的59億，全部加起來，從111年開始，每年74億。新法修了之後，不含餐費就要增加26億，含餐費要達到220億，所以不含餐費的話100億，含餐費要高達到220億，這個得要好好跟地方政府一起來了解。地方政府拿到了這些財劃法的財源之後，有沒有能力？它會怎麼規劃？我們想要保障學生的權益，所以制度上得要談清楚，以上跟委員補充。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，如果這個談清楚之後，分配的比例也清楚了，可能院版的法才能成熟？"],["張廖次長萬堅：譬如說，我們營養師要加碼，加碼的錢是地方出還中央出？地方要補助多少？"],["林委員宜瑾：就像是午餐執秘或營養師等等，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：所以加，對孩子好，我們都支持，基本上方向都支持，但是我們必須要為政策負責，所以就必須要去講問題怎麼解決。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，也請你們儘速談，好不好？OK，再回到我們今天另外一個主題運動產業發展條例，本席剛提出版本，當然這次主要是要修正第二十六條之二，就是有關於企業捐贈職業或業餘運動業或重點運動賽事免稅額的部分。現行法規是2021我們修正的嘛，那時候就是可抵稅150%，當時本席也有參與修法，而張廖萬堅委員也有一起，那個時候其實我們一開始是主張250%，因為我們先求有、再求好的原則之下，財政部一直哀哀叫，所以我們就用150%上路，過了三年了，現在時機成熟了嗎？署長還是次長，過了三年了，150%變成250%有沒有機會？"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，我想你知道我的心裡是期待的，但是部會就是一體，大家還在溝通，其實我們現在看到的數據，三年了，每年抵稅的額度，大概從11億左右，去年好像11億，前年10億，而職業運動大概去年抵了10億。當時協商的時候，門檻是可以到30億，為什麼會沒有辦法用到那麼多，可能有一些結構的因素，看法也不太一樣，這個部分我必須承認，但是我們還是希望運動部上路之後，為了優化運動產業的經營，在租稅優惠方面能夠爭取到更大的一個額度。這部分財政部代表是不是有來？我們是不是要請他們說明？"],["林委員宜瑾：對啊！因為體育署是說，如果根據這個專戶的運作來看，受贈金額最多只到11億嘛，沒有達到上限30億，所以稅損影響其實是有限的啊！加上我們運動部再來要掛牌，所以正值運動產業要大爆發的時候，所以這個時候如果不把減免營所稅的額度調到250%，增加這個動機，讓更多企業投入運動產業，要更待何時？所以這個時候是要更加把握的時候，對不對？"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，我想委員的關心會有一定的效果。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以我想再請大家努力啦！如果說250%，當然這是我們心目中的願想，如果財政部還是有很大很大的意見，那您覺得有什麼折衷的方案嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這個是列入我們院的優先法案，所以這部分我們會再來研商，因為委員的版本相當多，朝野一些不同黨派也有相同的提案，所以這部分我們會持續來討論，也會尊重委員的意見。"],["林委員宜瑾：我再請教一下，因為之前體育署有說財政部要在3月14號開會討論這個議題，到底討論的狀況如何？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們請財政部來說明，好不好？"],["林委員宜瑾：好，OK，謝謝。"],["倪副署長麗心：跟委員報告，現行法是費用加成150嘛，相當於企業捐贈100塊裡面有30是政府補助，就是政府補助的比例已經達三成，其實補助比例是很高啦！因為企業捐贈的對象是企業自己決定的，政府已經配合企業，它捐70塊，政府已經出了30塊，這個比例很高，是不是要再提高，我們可以跟教育部大家再一起來討論。"],["林委員宜瑾：可是它背後所創造的產值不是這樣子來計算的，我再簡單說一下，像我們因為改成150，所以職棒變成6隊，這個我想張廖次長最清楚。多了臺鋼雄鷹，在6支隊伍之後，你看整個職棒蓬勃發展，特別我們又拿到12強的第一，我想這個都是因為有6隊整個效應所產生的，所以不要簡單看表面上的稅損，要看背後創出的產值，我們現在有大巨蛋，也有我們臺南的亞太棒球村，未來因為球場的規模變大、球迷湧進，整個創造出來的產值，包括我們亞太棒球村也有讓韓職來春訓，那整個產值，大家來看韓星的啦……"],["張廖次長萬堅：未來會有4隊。"],["林委員宜瑾：Okinawa本來是日職、韓職最佳的春訓基地，他們的產值一年是上百億的，可是我們開始慢慢在經營這一塊，我覺得未來有可能會超過Okinawa，因為我們的條件都比他們更好。所以我想拜託財政部，不要看表面上的稅損，或者說國家先補助多少，我覺得背後所創造出來的產值、那個稅才是更驚人的啦！"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們會跟財政部還有企業投資的這些企業團體，找個機會一起來溝通，我們會儘快，因為這個部版，署已經準備要提了，目前因為沒有共識，所以我們就是尊重立委提案的方式，將來也會併審來討論。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK，好，謝謝次長、謝謝署長、謝謝召委。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾召委的質詢，官員請回座。","接著繼續進行質詢，請劉書彬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","李彥秀","吳思瑤","李坤城","陳培瑜"],"page_start":111,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1142901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1142901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「學校供餐法草案」：(一) 審查委員范雲等16人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(二) 審\n查委員馬文君等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 (三) 審查委員魯明哲等24人擬具「學校供餐\n法草案」案、(四) 審查委員王育敏等17人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、(五) 審查委員洪孟楷等\n20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、 ( 六 ) 審查委員黃健豪等 20 人擬具「學校供餐法草案」案、\n( 七) 審查委員楊瓊瓔等21 人擬具「學校供餐條例草案」案、 ( 八) 審查委員林倩綺等 21 人擬具\n「學校午餐及營養促進條例草案」案、 ( 九 ) 審查委員鍾佳濱等 17 人擬具「學校午餐法草案」\n案、(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十一) 審查委員張雅\n琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案、(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午\n餐及飲食教育條例草案」案、(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案、\n(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十六) 審查委員葉元之等\n20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案、(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草\n案」案、(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案、(十九) 審查委員劉建國等\n17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案、(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐\n法草案」案、(二十一) 審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草\n案」案、(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」\n案、(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159449","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159449","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb080d54f9f9ff9116056c3f89dc79e7a2560f1855e115a4ba4d9703f2b8768d29e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:57:23 - 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我請經濟部的郭部長郭部長是不是能源署那個代理署長對 蔡代理署長我也想 你好我想經濟部的書面報告跟這個口頭報告的資料我都看過了今天不提台積電因為大家都要提台積電昨天晚上睡不著夜觀天象"},{"start":39.222,"end":64.341,"text":"東方群星燦爛,一片明亮西方星群暗淡,偶有一兩顆的星在閃爍所以我覺得台灣台積電還是永遠台積電富國神山永遠是富國神山天象可以看出台積電未來的走向"},{"start":66.287,"end":90.116,"text":"從你的報告來說 你的境外關內境外關內你在捷克貿易投資中心設立了 福岡馬上設立那你的境外關內 在你的書面報告又跟這個大健康產業生態系結合我就混淆了 捷克這個貿易投資中心 你配置多少人力"},{"start":90.99,"end":109.452,"text":"你預期要招多少商那福岡台灣貿易中心你要配置多少人力又怎麼樣跟大健康產業生態系結合因為我有點confuse所以我請教你一下是報告委員我想境外關聯的意思就是說在我們台灣之外的"},{"start":110.202,"end":132.79,"text":"地區我們去設置這個我很清楚你目前成立這兩個中心你配置多少人力我們現在是目前以我們國貿署的同仁住在駐外外館的商業組的人目前一位或者兩位你一位兩位要變成一個台灣貿易投資中心"},{"start":133.57,"end":151.988,"text":"要做境外關內的政策能力會不會不足啊我們會請 未來在福岡福岡要成立台灣貿易中心也是一兩位貿易組的同仁經濟部派出的這個諸外同仁他們有這個能力做一條龍的服務嗎報告委員我們會local high"},{"start":153.523,"end":171.055,"text":"會邀請當地的人有人脈關係的人來加入我們的陣容Local High是不是專業的我們必須要考慮他有沒有專業能力我們一年時間來檢驗你的境外官內的政策執行的狀況是"},{"start":172.856,"end":193.974,"text":"然後這個到底創造多少產值 服務多少廠商另外你說要跟大健康產業生態系的結合用境外觀念 我就覺得奇怪怎麼突然講到大健康產業報告委員 我想大健康產業是這樣子總統在上任以後講說要健康台灣但是跟境外觀念有關係嗎"},{"start":195.667,"end":215.806,"text":"這境外觀內有關係嗎?境內觀外有關係嗎?境內觀外的部分我們希望提供一些比較優惠的地方那麼讓外國的人進來我們台灣你的報告是說境內觀外打造大健康產業生態系我真的有點迷惑"},{"start":216.767,"end":237.797,"text":"我有點看不懂是不是我的認知能力這個部分我是不是到委員辦公室去跟你做一個解說另外你要推動成立F16維修中心2016奉展計畫的時候在國安委員會是支持這個預算奉展計畫有幾架這個F16你知道嗎140架F16AB提升到F16V後續要採購66架的F16V你要設立一個F16維修中心"},{"start":245.819,"end":271.566,"text":"維修中心是你要結合漢翔結合其他的這個軍工產業對不對是到底能夠發揮什麼樣的縱效那是維修中心是所有F16戰機不管是16V還是升級到AB是經過你們維修中心在做還是有軍方呢報告委員您的數字是我們國內的數字你還可以說國外F16"},{"start":273.528,"end":298.459,"text":"也是 但這部分牽扯 抱歉我沒有辦法在這個地方做詳細的報告這是機密是不是對那我這個機密我就覺得如果用機密預算用機密會議可以請教一下我第一次聽到你這個想法好 那我請教在亞洲有F16的以色列也有啦 還有哪些國家有他們願意讓我們來維修嗎"},{"start":299.959,"end":327.315,"text":"這個部分我相信這個在國安的系統所以我跟您確定我們的商員不僅是我們國內的L16一百四十家一百四十家一家六十六家其他國家L16都有可能在我們台灣維修就是對我們民主同盟的國家都願意在我們這邊維修都會有可能難怪最近軍工股股大漲另外從你的報告裡面"},{"start":328.806,"end":330.218,"text":"我大概現在想要講的固然是重點"},{"start":331.704,"end":360.399,"text":"但是對傳統產業你要怎麼去提振轉型這個幾乎沒有任何篇幅在做任何的描述有我相信看過了真的沒有啦你對傳統產業扣建業怎麼輔導鋼鐵怎麼輔導石化怎麼輔導你應該有詳細的對策或者你要有一個白皮書怎麼樣對傳統產業讓他們能夠恢復競爭力降低成本種種真的你也有書面報告我很詳細看因為我做高齡的時間很多"},{"start":361.44,"end":380.287,"text":"我從頭看到尾就是沒有傳統產業那你也知道中南部都是傳統產業他們也會看報告是不是在經濟部沒有重視傳統產業他很煩惱所以你要從經濟部的高度來做全面性的宣示說政府是高度重視傳統產業的轉型他們認為他們已經是棄嬰棄兒"},{"start":386.806,"end":412.517,"text":"氣質好像大家把所有資源都放在這個AI半導體他們有這種認知一旦認知變成他們的意識形態變成他們的想法的話那就我覺得是我們政府的問題所以這部分我希望說這部分能夠加強對傳統產業的協助跟發展那李君理李署長潛力長子的階段目前是這樣子對不對"},{"start":415.006,"end":434.362,"text":"那未來區塊開發的階段,你覺得這兩個階段目前問題在哪裡呢?現階段是他們需要協助的是資金的問題因為俄烏戰爭之後,那麼他們的成本上漲那資金的問題就會形成...我問你,這兩年投資的金額有幾億?"},{"start":439.973,"end":464.314,"text":"大概總共加起來大概會將近一兆元的投資在那邊一兆元的投資對是你確定這個數字是正確的是你看一下你的報告你現在離一兆元還非常大累計就是說完工以後107到114你們進場投資在894億對不對你要到一兆什麼時候到一兆啊"},{"start":464.554,"end":490.063,"text":"就是說我們目前合準的5.7GW通通完成我們是一個兆元的計畫預計我們大概在2026年的11月以前會全部都完成會到一兆的投資金額啊是是這個我是一個我們可以跟委員再報告一兆是你現在要增加10倍是"},{"start":491.021,"end":494.757,"text":"哇如果你們達成我是覺得你們可以得到諾貝爾經濟學獎"},{"start":499.621,"end":525.415,"text":"另外啊這個你們要在報告裡面寫說這台電增資不成撥補不成所造成的影響你們採取的是什麼造成什麼樣的衝擊跟影響必須要來龍去龍要交代很清楚在你們報告裡面也要讓全民知道這撥補在藍白的這個決議之下撥補沒有通過預算沒有通過所以勢必要反映在合理的電價"},{"start":526.616,"end":528.119,"text":"所以是不是這次定價漲定了?"},{"start":532.537,"end":558.372,"text":"報告委員 電價的部分是由電價審議委員會透過專家學者你也是委員嘛 你是召集人嘛決定的這部分 你是召集人嘛我不是這個審議委員會一定是橫出他的財務狀況所以我覺得好像這個情境來看必須好像是非常不可那非常不可的原因為什麼會造成非常不可可以不漲的呢"},{"start":560.011,"end":574.639,"text":"那原因出現在哪裡 我希望另外那個經部要好好對外說明另外最後一個30秒的問題我很少被按兩次鈴30秒請吳明昌台談吳董事長董事長"},{"start":582.369,"end":594.198,"text":"這個您知道 您在台南現在台南有一個棒球村亞太棒球村高雄你也知道我已經爭取十年了十年不是不短的歲月人生有幾個十年"},{"start":595.475,"end":623.148,"text":"我要爭取這個北高雄棒球村我們也有很好的基礎對不對你也有跟這個我們職棒球團結束他們也有這個意願來用他們資金來開發你們提供的主力來合作來撇去一個這個北高雄的棒球村就類似於台南亞太這是美式衣裝我聽到你的這個有這個想法過去的歷任董事長基本上都是相對比較消極"},{"start":624.269,"end":649.247,"text":"只有你比較積極那從你的積極的態度來看目前有沒有最新的進度我知道有一個球團很大的球團他要對這一塊他們要開發非常有興趣目前您了解的狀況是怎麼樣報告委員我們在積極的跟大家這樣介紹那這個棒球室是有四個棒球場同時進行是國際性的那那個我知道委員已經有爭取了十幾年"},{"start":649.887,"end":676.988,"text":"那這個是非常不得了的事情那我們那個台糖一定全力配合把那個土地那剛好15公頃剛好可以做一個棒球村M7的那個特色國際性的OK我希望說一年之內有個具體的進度跟成果最後15秒我再發表一下我的想法這個台電的基層農人是非常辛苦"},{"start":678.213,"end":699.028,"text":"颱風天來 下雨天來 他們要去確保供電的穩定把停電的狀況迅速恢復 真的非常辛苦但是他們的辛苦卻得不到立法院的支持我作為經濟委員會成員 我的心情無比的沉重"},{"start":700.661,"end":729.343,"text":"為什麼我們沒有辦法支持但我必須要說明我們在經濟委員會在審查預算的時候是我當造委主審的這個一千億的撥補是有通過的我們是這個凍結三十億通過這台電的撥補預算但很遺憾莫名其妙在朝野協商的時候不曉得哪邊天外飛來一筆是一個完全沒有在經濟委員會出現的一個我不曉得他叫什麼名字是一個立法委員"},{"start":730.888,"end":759.989,"text":"提案 所有一千億檢列不只是藍白也有同樣提案所以我們在委會討論了這個昏天案例討論到這真的面紅耳赤做出了結論他一個提案就把他否決了藍一案白一案那我們對我們在場三位的這個這個執政黨的這個同仁是非常不公平的所以我覺得"},{"start":767.569,"end":788.693,"text":"所以我希望說這個國民黨同仁都很認真也用他們專業去審查這個經濟部跟國營事業預算但是問題出在這個朝野協商的時候不曉得他們黨團哪一個人啊是出於什麼動機 出於什麼理由一千億 全部把它否決掉"},{"start":790.01,"end":812.23,"text":"這可能 三位同仁啊雖然我們不同黨好 謝謝我們不同黨 但我們同心是為了台電為了國家能源的穩定啊時間已經超過了七分鐘了真的喔超過七分鐘 謝謝我以後會檢討一下是是謝謝我們沒有真的面目我們是很和諧的來討論我們的預算好 謝謝志偉委員 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":484,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時57分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["邱委員志偉：能源署代理署長。"],["主席：蔡代理署長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：你好。經濟部的書面報告跟口頭報告的資料我都看過了，今天不提台積電，因為大家都在提台積電。昨天晚上睡不著夜觀天象，東方群星燦爛一片明亮，西方星群暗淡，偶有一、兩顆的星在閃爍，所以我覺得臺灣台積電還是永遠的台積電，護國神山永遠是護國神山，天象可以看出台積電的未來走向。","從你的報告來說，你的「境外關內」政策，你在捷克設立貿易投資中心了，福岡馬上要設立，那你的「境外關內」在你的書面報告中又跟大健康產業生態系結合，我就混淆了，捷克這個貿易投資中心配置多少人力？你預期要招多少商？那福岡臺灣貿易中心你要配置多少人力？又怎麼樣跟大健康產業生態系結合？因為我有點confuse，所以我請教你一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想「境外關內」的意思就是在臺灣之外的地區，我們去設置……"],["邱委員志偉：我了解，這個我很清楚，我是說目前成立這兩個中心，配置多少人力？"],["郭部長智輝：我們目前是以國貿署的同仁，駐在駐外外館商業組的人。"],["邱委員志偉：一位？兩位？"],["郭部長智輝：目前一位或者兩位。"],["邱委員志偉：是啊！你一位、兩位要變成一個臺灣貿易投資中心，又要做「境外關內」的政策，人力會不會不足？未來在福岡要成立臺灣貿易中心，也是一、兩位貿易組的同仁。經濟部派駐的駐外同仁有這個能力做一條龍的服務嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們會local hire，會邀請當地有人脈關係的人加入我們的陣容。"],["邱委員志偉：好，給你們一點時間，local hire是不是專業的？我們必須要考量他們有沒有專業能力，用1年的時間來檢驗你的境外關內政策執行的狀況，還有到底可以創造多少產值、服務多少廠商。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，你說要跟大健康產業生態系結合，用境外關內的政策，我就覺得奇怪，怎麼會突然講到大健康產業？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想大健康產業是這樣子，總統在上任以後說要健康台灣……"],["邱委員志偉：但是跟境內關外有關係嗎？跟關外有關係嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：境內關外的部分，我們希望提供一些比較優惠的地方，讓外國的人進來我們臺灣……"],["邱委員志偉：不是，你的報告是說「境內關外，打造大健康產業生態系」，我真的有點迷惑，有點看不懂，是不是我的認知能力有……"],["郭部長智輝：關於這個部分，我是不是到委員辦公室去跟你做一個解說？"],["邱委員志偉：再給我書面資料。另外，你要推動成立F-16維修中心。2016年鳳展計畫的時候，我在外交及國防委員會是支持這個預算的，鳳展計畫有幾架F-16，你知道嗎？140架，F-16A/B提升為F-16V，後續要採購66架的F-16V。你要設立一個F-16維修中心，維修中心是要結合漢翔、結合其他的軍工產業，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：到底能夠發揮什麼樣的綜效？那是維修中心，是所有F-16戰機不管是F-16V，還是升級到A/B、A/B要升級到A，是經過你們維修中心在做，還是由軍方？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，您的數字是我們國內的數字……"],["邱委員志偉：你還可以做國外的F-16？"],["郭部長智輝：也是，但這個部分牽扯……"],["邱委員志偉：你能確定嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：抱歉，我沒有辦法在這個地方做詳細的報告。"],["邱委員志偉：這是機密，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["邱委員志偉：喔，如果用機密預算，用機密會議可以請教一下。我第一次聽到有這個想法。我請教，在亞洲有F-16的，除了以色列有，還有哪些國家有？他們願意讓我們來維修嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我相信在國安的系統……"],["邱委員志偉：所以我要跟你確認，我們的商源不僅是國內的F-16，140架加66架，其他國家的F-16都有可能在我們臺灣維修？"],["郭部長智輝：就是對我們民主同盟的國家……"],["邱委員志偉：都願意來我們這邊維修？"],["郭部長智輝：都會有可能。"],["邱委員志偉：難怪最近軍工股大漲。另外，從你的報告裡面看到，五大信賴產業固然是重點，但是對傳統產業要怎麼去提振、轉型，幾乎沒有任何篇幅在做任何的描述……"],["郭部長智輝：有。"],["邱委員志偉：我詳細看過了，真的沒有，對於傳統產業，像扣件業要怎麼輔導、鋼鐵業要怎麼輔導、石化業要怎麼輔導，你應該有詳細的對策或者要有一個白皮書，說明怎麼樣讓傳統產業恢復競爭力或降低成本種種。真的，你的業務報告書面報告我很詳細看了，因為我坐高鐵的時間很多，我從頭看到尾，就是沒有傳統產業的部分。你也知道中南部都是傳統產業，他們也會看報告，是不是經濟部不重視傳統產業？他們會很擔心，所以你要從經濟部的高度做全面性的宣示，說明政府高度重視傳統產業的轉型。他們認為自己已經是棄嬰、棄兒、棄子，好像大家把所有資源都放在AI、半導體，如果他們有這種認知，變成他們的意識形態、變成他們的想法的話，我覺得那就是我們政府的問題。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員志偉：所以我希望能夠加強對傳統產業的協助跟發展。李君禮署長，離岸風電潛力場址的階段目前是這樣子，對不對？未來是區塊開發的階段，你覺得這兩個階段目前問題在哪裡呢？"],["郭部長智輝：是不是請李署長來報告？"],["邱委員志偉：對，李署長。"],["李代理署長君禮：現階段他們需要協助的是資金的問題，因為俄烏戰爭之後他們的成本上漲，資金的問題就會……"],["邱委員志偉：我知道，從107年到114年大概投資了八百多億，對不對？"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我問你，這兩年投資的金額是幾億？"],["李代理署長君禮：加起來總共大概有將近1兆元的投資在那邊。"],["邱委員志偉：1兆元的投資？"],["李代理署長君禮：對，是。"],["邱委員志偉：你確定這個數字是正確的？"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你看一下你的報告，現在離1兆元還非常大……"],["李代理署長君禮：累計，就是完工以後。"],["邱委員志偉：107年到114年你們建廠投資是894億，對不對？"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["邱委員志偉：你要到1兆，什麼時候到1兆？"],["李代理署長君禮：就是我們目前核准的5.7GW統統完成，我們是一個兆元的計畫。"],["邱委員志偉：是什麼時候？2051……"],["李代理署長君禮：預計大概在2026年11月以前會全部都完成。"],["邱委員志偉：會到1兆的投資金額啊？"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["邱委員志偉：這個部分我是一個問號。"],["李代理署長君禮：我們可以跟委員再報告，我們有計算過。"],["邱委員志偉：1兆是比現在要增加10倍。"],["李代理署長君禮：是。"],["邱委員志偉：哇，如果你們達成，我是覺得你們可以得到諾貝爾經濟學獎。","另外，你們要在報告裡面寫說台電增資不成、撥補不成所造成什麼樣衝擊跟影響，來龍去脈必須在你們的報告裡面交代得很清楚，要讓全民知道，這個撥補在藍白的決議之下沒有通過、預算沒有通過，勢必要反映在合理的電價上，所以是不是這次電價漲定了？部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，電價的部分是由電價審議委員會透過專家學者……"],["邱委員志偉：你也是委員，你是召集人嘛……"],["郭部長智輝：他們的集思廣益決定了這部分。"],["邱委員志偉：你是召集人嘛？"],["郭部長智輝：我不是。"],["邱委員志偉：反正這個審議委員會一定是衡諸它的財務狀況，所以我覺得以這個情境來看，好像是非漲不可，至於非漲不可的原因，為什麼會造成非漲不可？可以不漲的，原因出現在哪裡？我希望經濟部要好好對外說明。","最後30秒的問題，我很少被按兩次鈴。請台糖吳明昌董事長。董事長，您在臺南，臺南有一個亞太棒球村，您也知道高雄的部分我已經爭取了10年，10年是不短的歲月，人生有幾個10年？我要爭取設立北高雄棒球村，我們有很好的基礎，對不對？您也有跟我們職棒球員接觸，他們也有這個意願，用他們的資金來開發，你們提供土地來合作，闢建一個北高雄的棒球村，就是類似於臺南的亞太，這是美事一樁，我聽到你有這個想法，過去歷任董事長基本上都是相對比較消極，只是你比較積極，從你積極的態度來講，目前有沒有最新的進度？我知道有一個很大的球團對這塊的開發非常有興趣，目前您瞭解的狀況是怎麼樣？"],["吳董事長明昌：報告委員，我們在積極地接洽，這個棒球村可以有4個棒球場同時進行比賽，是國際性的。我知道委員已經爭取了十幾年，這個是非常不得了的事情，我們台糖一定全力配合，那個土地有15公頃，剛好可以做一個棒球村特色園區，而且是國際性的，OK。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望1年之內有一個具體的進度跟成果。","最後15秒，我再發表一下我的想法。台電的基層同仁是非常辛苦的，颱風天、下雨天的時候，他們要去確保供電的穩定，把停電的狀況儘速恢復，真的非常辛苦，但是他們的辛苦卻得不到立法院的支持，作為經濟委員會的成員，我的心情無比地沉重，為什麼我們沒有辦法支持？但是我必須要說明，我們在經濟委員會審查預算的時候，是我當召委主審的，這個1,000億的撥補是有通過的，我們是凍結30億來通過台電的撥補預算；但是很遺憾地，莫名其妙在朝野協商的時候，不曉得哪邊天外飛來一筆，是一個完全沒有在經濟委員會出現的一個委員，我不曉得他叫什麼名字，是一個立法委員，他提了案，把所有的1,000億減列，不只是藍，白也有同樣的提案。所以我們在委員會討論得昏天暗地、大家爭得面紅耳赤做出了結論，他一個提案就把它否決了──藍一案、白一案。對我們在場3位執政黨的同仁是非常不公平的，所以我希望……"],["主席（呂委員玉玲代）：謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：時間到了嗎？"],["主席：你不用趕高鐵嗎？"],["邱委員志偉：今天不用。"],["主席：按鈴5次了，要趕高鐵，快點！"],["邱委員志偉：再5秒鐘。國民黨同仁都很認真，也用他們的專業去審查經濟部跟國營事業的預算，但是問題是在朝野協商的時候不曉得他們黨團哪一個人是出於什麼動機、出於什麼理由，對這1,000億全部否決掉，3位同仁，雖然我們不同黨……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["張委員嘉郡：我們已經不是執政黨了。"],["邱委員志偉：我們不同黨，但我們是同心為了台電，為了國家能源的穩定，以天下蒼生為念……"],["主席：謝謝，時間已經超過7分鐘了。"],["邱委員志偉：真的嗎？"],["主席：超過7分鐘，謝謝。"],["邱委員志偉：好，我以後會檢討一下。"],["主席：是，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們沒有爭得面紅耳赤，我們是和諧的討論我們的預算。好，謝謝志偉委員。","請張嘉郡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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你就把他撞開沒關係的他要叫你而已 只有你能夠叫而已我們請人事長好 有請人事長 謝謝謝謝主席人事長我看今天有一個一則消息蓋洛普全世界的一個民調全世界最快樂的國家"},{"start":35.373,"end":58.005,"text":"那有藥的也知道不丹喔?沒有啦,那不丹?不丹就台灣啦不丹就台灣啦我接了我們蠻幸福的啦幸福啦國家經濟一直在成長啦你這個人主觀想像我現在要跟你講的是說蓋洛普全世界的民調八年報在國家全世界最快樂的你有看嗎?"},{"start":63.464,"end":79.192,"text":"芬蘭事實上那邊憂鬱症的人數也不少所以快樂的定義跟還有它產生的衝擊每個國家會不一樣那台灣咧?我們台灣像你這樣憂鬱到白天幾天台灣應該幾天因為我們這幾年經濟每年都好但是也有人說我們都過勞"},{"start":91.674,"end":94.197,"text":"工人的壓力也很重啊 大家也想要幫忙啊如果要求整天都加 你就一粒頭兩粒大"},{"start":99.667,"end":118.016,"text":"那大家也希望說大家都放假還有新選人唸啊所以我就說這個叫做主觀的想像嘛台灣在亞洲就排名第三全世界排名就27啦也就是說我們確實是有很多努力的一個空間啦那當然你說站在公務人員的立場來看的話你那個總緣額嘛你們想要說緣額不變總緣額不變"},{"start":128.06,"end":154.867,"text":"又要嫁 又要結婚之後那其實啊 工作量啊會增加 不會減少嘛公共機關講究的就是一個叫做效率嘛講究的就是一個叫做責任嘛那會有衝突那今天本席就幾個問題要來請教啦那政府啊我看賴總統去年也提出了一個所謂的身心調適價這樣的一個概念啦那我不曉得"},{"start":156.107,"end":174.252,"text":"那這個身心調試假 你說讓公務人員可以在整個心理壓力過大的時候來做一個請假也不需要整個病假的一個證明可是在基層公務人員普遍的一個反應 我的請試假問題就已經很困難了那何況這種新設立的一個價別"},{"start":178.993,"end":204.531,"text":"譬如說以教育部來看的話去年8月他就能夠簽身心調試駕可是很多學生也反映我都遭受到刁難那公副機關到底會不會出現這樣的一個問題我不曉得任總這個地方你們對於這樣的一個身心調試駕這樣的一個概念這個價別你們的態度怎麼樣"},{"start":206.994,"end":221.153,"text":"我委員報告三月十七號我們已經申請調適假簽了基本上當事人在申請三天調適假裡面就是在整個試駕七天裡面"},{"start":222.762,"end":251.254,"text":"機關不能犯罪,而且他也不用檢護什麼證明就是確保當事人他要申請的,而且機關也不能對申請調適假的人做出就是有害的一些處分,你算苛責還是其他的都不行那時候要補充那所以說申請調適假以現在來看的話本來你說七天裡面,那年齡你還沒算出來啊?還沒算一天啊?"},{"start":252.776,"end":273.482,"text":"三年裡面可以贏啊 因為暑假先贏贏的之後又不會嫁啊所以它真正的實意是什麼 第一個不列為考積它就不用證明嘛 也不影響它的考積嘛因為暑假一般你會穿很多暑假的 科學的應用我倒這樣看啦"},{"start":274.4,"end":293.231,"text":"你說身心調適價 我們最怕的就是會被標籤化了會覺得你偷懶 怕會造成一個負面的影響那第二個 跑去放假了 那其他人來看的話 會不會有職務代理的問題你也必須要去考慮到這樣的一個問題啊"},{"start":295.151,"end":312.029,"text":"基本上當事人是有需要才去申請,剛才委員提的是有可能啦因為一個人好好的,不然代表自己去請其實這個問題以目前的情況來講,發生的機會同人之間發生了這種所謂的懷疑,人好好的去請假本來就有他的管理可以去請"},{"start":317.915,"end":332.587,"text":"我要跟你們講就是說你這個政府你既然要提出來以後你就是要去落實啦不是說日本的就好日本的就有啊這個態度我就覺得反而那個政府這樣的一個美意又要被打折扣了"},{"start":333.387,"end":351.277,"text":"好不好 好那另外啊 本席要來請教的就是說我最近看到國民黨的朋友他們也一直在拋一個議題就是還我七天假這樣的一個議題出來我不曉得任總你的態度是怎麼樣國民黨現在提案說要恢復過去刪除了七天的國慶假日"},{"start":352.861,"end":368.175,"text":"我們比較擔心的就是說 這樣的一個議題其實都可以討論啦也沒有哪一個政黨說提出來以後他一定就會賺到一個放假的一個紅利 未必這個未必都會有政治上的紅利 為什麼會衝擊到民間 衝擊到企業你像譬如說這個假裝都回來了 對民眾來講的話"},{"start":374.801,"end":380.183,"text":"我譬如說你應用在你政府的一個運作那你像譬如說副政機關稅務單位或者說交通或者醫療這個對民眾產生的一個衝擊"},{"start":390.226,"end":411.3,"text":"提案的人他未必會享受到紅利那一個案子這個如果說這個法假設通過了以後衝擊到的是民眾衝擊到了一般的民眾或者衝擊到企業的一個運作所以我不曉得你任總你真正對這項的修法裡面的態度到底是什麼"},{"start":412.594,"end":427.447,"text":"基本上紀念日到節日實施辦法是內政部在主管的,在上面寫的嘛基本上那個上位的部分內政部他去定,我們要來修改"},{"start":429.268,"end":454.649,"text":"白鴿我怎麼來擺這樣啦有一個上下游的關係啦也要有你的態度啊 都要有你的態度啊 我也算你連工都要下去這麼薄主管的但問題就是說這涉及到整個政府整體的一個運作的穩定性跟民眾接受到政府機關服務它的一個順暢而且也牽扯到整個民間企業的一個運作這個都會衝擊到啊你怎麼可以這樣說這是政府主管而已啊"},{"start":456.05,"end":476.16,"text":"我覺得這個事情剛才委員提的這些民間業者的經營成本的問題還有一個就是小孩子的售價錢的問題那當然因為你放假要小孩尤其偏鄉那些小孩說這個啦他的教育資源本來就比較匱乏你再放假再放越多對他們來說相對不公平所以說你的態度我又聽不懂啦"},{"start":476.44,"end":505.518,"text":"我 我的態度就是持保留啊 因為你就是保留嘛 就不是只有內政部而已嘛對不對 你就不是說這個就不是什麼內政部主管機關嘛就是說我人種 我對於這樣的一個修法你們就是保留嘛保留也是有道理啊不是沒有道理 這本來就可以討論啊open discussion不錯 來 想問一下一條就是說你針對於原住民主碎石計一架裡面喔"},{"start":506.638,"end":517.648,"text":"我一直在盯這樣的一個問題,就是說這樣的一個價別裡面,你可不可以讓大家尤其讓我們原住民的朋友,不要讓他們看得到"},{"start":520.663,"end":544.744,"text":"請不上你像譬如說我們政府去允許原住民在按照族群的遂時計放假一天但問題就是說這項的一個權益裡面有的人真的不知道就變成說有價可以請的人我沒請到就白白吃虧了那部分的企業或者機關他甚至於不了解整個的一個政策導致員工的請假"},{"start":545.825,"end":556.306,"text":"有人去請的忙也是用記者甚至於說還要不知心所以我在這個地方具體的來建議就是說是不是在我們每一年的辦公日曆上我們去加注"},{"start":557.355,"end":581.29,"text":"原住民族碎石記憶架的一個資訊那你透過整個官方行事曆的一個曝光以後提高社會對原住民族文化的一個認識那也可以去確保整個企業跟機關明確了解放假的一個規定你避免整個執行上的一個混亂請教我們人總這邊的看法我委員報告啦在你螢幕上這張"},{"start":583.271,"end":598.46,"text":"正面反面說真的我們會利用被住的地方去做一個序名啦所以就代表我們原來沒做啦現在你把它加下去我們有寫說按照原住民委員會的公告有寫這樣的"},{"start":599.778,"end":623.558,"text":"我們真的要注明 好不好 因為在那裡在那裡有什麼 還有兒姐 父 王子我們想要更加明確 人總是不是願意在下一年度的行事你加重這個資訊的資訊來落實整個政策的一個效益就這樣 你看 我在那裡建議加注原住民的稅時計餘價的一個資訊 可以嗎"},{"start":627.315,"end":629.296,"text":"我來教我來教這樣是不是就清楚了這樣企業也不會混亂我原住民的朋友我只要看到這張表以後會覺得這天就是我可以來請教的這樣可以嗎"},{"start":640.312,"end":666.181,"text":"但是我要跟委員講喔,他那幾個州的本價的歷史都不一樣要當公園嘛,但是至少這個價,我們就把他這個資訊就把它列進去嘛我們那個資訊提供更加明確一點,不要只有提供一個網址啦,都要明確可以啦齁,那個票要加進去之後,他就知道說,給企業住嘛,知道說人家這天他可以簽價原住民朋友會覺得說,欸這天真的就是我的福利,而且是法定的,好不好好,謝謝"},{"start":668.885,"end":669.748,"text":"好,謝謝莊銳雄委員,謝謝任市長"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":673,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時）謝謝主席。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我都還沒叫你，你就自己跑上來，哪有那麼快的？"],["主席：他還沒叫你。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好吧，只能叫你了，我們請人事長。"],["主席：好，有請人事長，謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝主席。人事長，今天有一則消息，蓋洛普世界民調，全世界最快樂的國家是哪一個？用猜的也知道。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不丹喔？"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒有啦，什麼不丹？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：臺灣？"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是，差這麼多，你不行亂說。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得我們蠻幸福的啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：很幸福啦……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：國家經濟一直在成長啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：你這個是個人的主觀想像，我現在跟你說的是蓋洛普世界民調，有一個國家八連霸，全世界最快樂的，猜猜看？是芬蘭。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：芬蘭喔？"],["莊委員瑞雄：對。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上他們憂鬱症的人數也不少。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，所以快樂的定義跟還有它產生的衝擊在每個國家會不一樣，那臺灣呢？你猜我們臺灣排第幾名？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：臺灣應該排很前面，因為我們這幾年的經濟都好啊……"],["莊委員瑞雄：但也有人說我們都過勞啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：過勞……"],["莊委員瑞雄：公務人員的壓力也很重，大家也想要放假，如果跟你們要求幾天假，你們就一個頭兩個大。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：大家都希望天天放假還有薪水可以領啊！"],["莊委員瑞雄：那是當然！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那這個國家……"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以我就說這個叫做主觀的想像嘛！臺灣在亞洲排名第3，全世界排名第27，也就是說，我們確實是有很多努力的空間，當然你站在公務人員的立場來看的話，關於總員額，你們最愛說總員額不變，如果假還要加一點的話，其實工作量會增加不會減少，公務機關講究的就是效率、講究責任，那就會有衝突。","今天本席就針對幾個問題來請教，政府啊！我看賴總統去年也提出了一個身心調適假的概念，我不曉得這個身心調適假……你說讓公務人員可以在心理壓力過大的時候請假，也不需要病假的證明，可是基層公務人員普遍的反應是：本來我請事假就已經很困難了，何況這種新設立的一個假別？譬如以教育部來看的話，去年8月他們就可以請身心調適假，可是很多學生也反映遭受到刁難；公務機關到底會不會出現這樣的問題？我不曉得人總在這個地方，你們對於身心調適假這樣的一個概念、這樣的一個假別的態度是怎麼樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，我們已經在3月17號把身心調適假簽出去了，基本上當事人申請的3天調適假就是cover在事假7天裡面，機關不能反對，而且也不用檢附什麼證明，就是確保當事人的申請，而且機關也不能對請身心調適假的人做出一些有害的處分，像是考績還是其他的處分都不行，那是給他們的保障。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以現在以身心調適假來看的話，本來你說7天裡面……等於也沒多出來，也沒多1天啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，3天以內都可以用啊！因為事假用完之後還有病假。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以它真正的實益是什麼？第一個，不列為考績？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：他不用證明，也不影響他的考績，因為一般如果請很多事假的人會影響考績。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我倒是這樣看，你說身心調適假，我們最怕的就是會被標籤化……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：就會覺得他偷懶，怕會造成負面影響。第二個，他跑去放假了，其他人來看的話，會不會有職務代理的問題？你也必須考慮到這樣的問題啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上當事人是有需要才去申請，剛才委員提的是有可能，因為他就好好的一個人，沒什麼事情而請假，其實這個問題，以目前的情況來講，發生的機會……同仁之間發生這種懷疑，覺得他人好好的要請假……但他本來就有權利可以請假。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，我要跟你們講的是，政府既然要提出來，以後就要去落實，不是說你本來就好好的，本來就有了啊！這個態度我覺得反而又……政府這樣的一個美意又要被打折扣了，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：另外本席要請教的就是，我最近看到國民黨的朋友也一直在拋一個議題──「還我七天假」，有這樣的一個議題出來，我不曉得人總你的態度是怎麼樣？國民黨現在提案要恢復過去刪除的7天國定假日，我們比較擔心的是，這樣的一個議題，其實都可以討論，也沒有哪一個政黨提出來以後就一定會賺到放假的紅利，這個未必都會有政策上的紅利，為什麼呢？因為會衝擊到民間、衝擊到企業，比如說假日全都恢復之後，對民眾來講，哇！可能影響到政府的運作，像戶政機關、稅務單位，或者交通、醫療，對民眾產生的衝擊……提案的人未必會享受到紅利，如果這個法通過了以後，衝擊到的是一般民眾，或者衝擊到企業的運作，所以我不曉得人總你們對這項修法的真正態度到底是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上紀念日跟節日實施辦法是內政部主管，也就是上面寫的，那個上位的部分由內政部訂定，我們針對休假日來安排，有一個上下游的關係。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你們也要有你們的態度啊，他們也會邀請你們，我也知道你們一定會說是內政部主管的，但問題就是涉及政府整體運作的穩定性，以及民眾接受到政府機關服務的順暢，而且也牽扯到整個民間企業的運作，這些都會衝擊到啊！你們怎麼可以只說這是內政部主管的而已？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得這這個事情，也就是剛才委員提的這些民間業者經營成本的問題，還有一個是小孩子受教權的問題。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為放假之後，小孩……尤其偏鄉的小孩，說真的，他們的教育資源本來就比較匱乏，如果放假放更多，對他們來說相對不公平。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以說你的態度我又聽不懂了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我就是持保留的態度，因為……"],["莊委員瑞雄：這樣你就是保留嘛，不是只有內政部而已嘛，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我是保留……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你就不是說什麼內政部是主管機關嘛，應該是說人總對於這樣的修法持保留意見嘛。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們……"],["莊委員瑞雄：保留也是有道理啊，不是沒有道理，這本來就可以討論啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：open discussion。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不錯。最後一個，針對原住民族歲時祭儀假，我一直在盯這樣的問題，這樣的一個假別裡面，你可不可以讓大家……尤其讓我們原住民的朋友，不要讓他們看得到卻請不到，比如說我們政府允許原住民按照族群的歲時祭儀放假一天，但問題是有人真的不知道這項權益，變成有假可以請的人如果沒請到就白白吃虧了，部分企業或者機關甚至不了解整個政策，導致有些員工請假被拒絕，甚至不支薪。所以我在這裡具體建議，是不是在每年的辦公日曆上加註原住民族歲時祭儀假的相關資訊？透過官方行事曆的曝光，提高社會對原住民族文化的認識，也可以確保企業與機關明確了解放假的相關規定，避免整個執行上的混亂，我請教人總的看法。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：向委員報告，以委員放在螢幕上的行事曆來說，我們會在正面或反面利用備註來敘明。"],["莊委員瑞雄：代表原本沒有做，所以是不是就加上去？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們有寫按照原住民委員會的公告，我們有寫這樣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：就直接在行事曆上註明，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那張有寫，而且有附網址。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是不是可以更明確？人總是不是願意在下年度的行事曆上加重這項資訊，以落實政策的效益。你看我那張行事曆，建議可以在上面加註原住民歲時祭儀假的資訊，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，我們來加。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這樣是不是就清楚了？如此企業也不會混亂，原住民朋友看到這張表，就知道這一天可以請假，這樣可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：報告委員，每一族的放假日都不一樣。"],["莊委員瑞雄：當然。至少我們把放假的資訊列進去了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會讓資訊提供更加明確一點，不要只提供網址，可以更明確。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以？在表上加進去後，企業主就知道這天可以請假，原住民朋友也會覺得這天請假就是我的福利，而且是法定的，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊瑞雄委員，謝謝人事長。"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄）：接下來請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}},{"id":"159447","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159447","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb09b08582dd377808db06f2ced2e0bc09060f1855e115a4ba476aa520af6b9da4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:02:04 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楊群發言 邀請部長請部長"},{"start":19.931,"end":41.021,"text":"我們根據我們的關務署3月18號的新聞稿當中對於中國大陸及韓國產製進口不鏽鋼冷紮鋼品課徵的反傾銷稅第二次的落入調查案財政部也公告即日起中國大陸及韓國所有的製造商或者"},{"start":41.701,"end":49.371,"text":"是這個出口商按現行核定反傾銷稅率是38.1%及37.65%繼續課徵反傾銷稅那為期是五年那在這樣的情況之下我們知道因為財政部你們也努力的去調查"},{"start":61.245,"end":86.479,"text":"結果顯示認定傾銷及產業損害可能會因為停止課徵反傾銷而繼續或者是再發生對國家我們整體經濟它是有負面的一個效能產生所以我們再延長這五年那請教部長在反傾銷實施的期間你是否還有一個點我們要全面的去圍堵"},{"start":87.119,"end":94.523,"text":"也就是是我會監控監測進口商是我會透過第三地的轉運來規避這一個關稅請教委員報告對於這個原產地的審查我們也是在海關也是會去做審查的然後避免嚴防這個透過第三地轉運對這一點一定要加強因為我們一定要好好的保護保護我們的產業"},{"start":114.052,"end":129.674,"text":"接下來本席要請教新青安的轉租人頭戶違規的事項我們看到財政部先前公布了供股銀行加強查核目前第三波也已經啟動在第二波大概有600件"},{"start":130.956,"end":156.613,"text":"第三波你也追了回來將近千億的這個違規案件那在這樣的一個情況之下我們看到這個數字這是一個社會正義我們需要幫助的年輕人他因為這樣子的情勢而導致他一直delay在那邊等這是非常不對的一個情況所以本席要請教部長"},{"start":158.295,"end":168.989,"text":"這1000多案的違規案件在未來我們在貸款審核的機制上面你有什麼樣的一個調整精進方案請說明"},{"start":170.674,"end":189.502,"text":"跟委員報告新青安的目的就是協助沒有自有房屋的國民朋友們他可以用比較優惠的條件去當然所以你面對到這樣的問題你要怎麼辦呢所以呢我們給予有關利息的一個補貼那當然要正常運用不能拿去出租跟人"},{"start":190.402,"end":206.362,"text":"所以第一個我們現在變成一千多案的樣帶出來怎麼改進我們已經前面兩波查到的是兩千一百多戶那已經追回的利息有兩千七百多萬也就是說國家資源有限應該用給真正需要協助的人"},{"start":206.923,"end":227.149,"text":"好 那所以另外您就提到說我們有什麼加強的措施第一個在貸錢的時候要詳盡的審核我們的公股行都已經在做了 詳盡審核第二個就是貸後的一個管理追蹤看有沒有去做出租或者是他這個是不是在審核之前就要看有沒有是人頭 加強審核管控機制貸後的管理然後對於申請新簽符合資格的人我們應該優先讓他可以貸得到錢"},{"start":235.832,"end":251.33,"text":"讓真正需要的人可以用得到這項措施請你把今天方案給本席因為我們一定要確保這個政策的支援是真正要落實給有需要的年輕人這個是我們的目標我們一起加油今天方案給本席"},{"start":252.291,"end":266.462,"text":"據媒體報導3月12號我們這個詐騙猖獗是讓全國民眾非常的不安那有發生銀行跟其他人去共組詐騙集團也遭了地檢署來起訴"},{"start":267.583,"end":286.434,"text":"那麼金管會副局長他也表示在這樣的情況之下不管是存匯交易客戶身份持續的審查以及帳戶監控作業員工異常行為管理等機制似乎沒有完善的建立及未落實確實"},{"start":288.496,"end":301.009,"text":"執行內部控制的機制違反了內機內控的辦法那要處罰這麼多錢兩千兩百萬的划環在這樣的情況之下請教部長詐騙集團長決我們要怎麼樣內控啊請做說明"},{"start":305.774,"end":322.128,"text":"根委報告發生這樣的事情我們也覺得很遺憾也就是說我們的銀行其實應該要一起做打詐防詐賭詐但是呢竟然有銀行的行員跟外人共組然後做這樣的事情第一個地檢署已經起訴了"},{"start":322.608,"end":336.65,"text":"好一言起訴我們認為第二個我們已經把他免職了第三個對於內部的人員已經做了行政的懲處那金管會的罰款那當然我們就尊重金管費金管金檢機關的一個重罰那後續我們應該要強化我們的內控機制以及強化行員要告訴他們說千萬不能有僥倖的行不能去做這樣的事情所以我們都是模範生啊公股銀行都是模範生不能寬戴是的不能寬戴因為公股銀行"},{"start":352.093,"end":367.814,"text":"大家都很辛苦所以因此在財委會呢在審查總預算的時候也通過要拉近國營金融事業機構跟泛工股金融機構的什麼我們也提出了因為他們太辛苦了又不夠"},{"start":369.215,"end":396.483,"text":"那所以我們至少要有virus大家平衡一點所以我們也提出了也就是在他的伙食費生育補助這一點非常重要他的獎金員工福利以及信託這些項目可以好好的來協助供股銀行的行員能夠願意繼續為大家努力那在這樣的情況之下本期要請教你們現在的進度到哪裡"},{"start":398.052,"end":406.1,"text":"我們的進度財政部已經提了五項方案報到行政院那人事總署呢對其中的生育補助已經在3月6號開會其他的項目在徵詢相關機關的意見當中這個方案裡面包括生育補助我們認為應該每胎"},{"start":413.467,"end":425.137,"text":"十萬塊,對,非常重要,每台十萬塊第二個,伙食費的部分呢在外加的部分是每個月三千塊每個月三千伙食費經營績效獎金我們希望從原來這個總額的4.4"},{"start":428.72,"end":452.535,"text":"提高到4.6個月這樣的那個績效獎金另外要提撥1到8%的這個稅前盈餘然後當作激勵員工在這個表現上以及這個績效上好的要做激勵第5個就是員工福利信託也就是說每個月他提撥1000然後銀行提撥1000然後讓他退休的時候可以有一個好的一個資金來過"},{"start":453.696,"end":476.699,"text":"我們歡喜的聽到財政部也做出了方案那麼這也是在這個大院裡頭正式通過的主決議我們的目的是什麼呢最重要的要留住人才因為現在人才是非常難請我們的公股銀行所有的"},{"start":477.279,"end":494.267,"text":"員工都是這麼這麼的優秀我們希望可以把他留下來部長要加油你預估什麼時候在其他活也就是生育 OK 十萬 OK 了伙食費是每個月三千那獎金的部分從4.4月來升為4.6月那員工福利的部分稅前盈餘提撥了1.8%來作為1.8% 對"},{"start":503.371,"end":512.697,"text":"1.8%1%到8%1到幾%8%1到8%這8%之內稅前盈餘的部分最後還有一個我們的員工福利的信託希望你趕快去把它完整出來讓大家安心好不好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":813,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時2分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：根據關務署3月18號的新聞稿當中，對於中國大陸及韓國產製進口不鏽鋼冷軋鋼品課徵反傾銷稅第2次落日調查案，財政部也公告即日起，中國大陸及韓國所有的製造商或出口商按現行核定反傾銷稅率是38.11%及37.65%繼續課徵反傾銷稅，為期是5年。在這樣的情況之下，我們知道因為財政部也努力調查，結果顯示，認定傾銷及產業損害可能因停止課徵反傾銷稅而繼續或再發生，對國家整體經濟有負面效能產生，所以再延長5年。請教部長，反傾銷實施期間，你是否還有一點要全面去圍堵，也就是是否會監控、監測進口商透過第三地轉運來規避關稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，對於原產地的審查，我們海關也是會做審查，避免、嚴防透過第三地轉運。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這一點一定要加強，因為我們一定要好好的保護我國的產業。"],["莊部長翠雲：保護我們國內的產業。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來，本席要請教新青安轉租、人頭戶等違規事項，財政部先前公布公股銀行加強查核，目前第三波也已經啟動，第二波大概有600件，第三波你也追回來將近千億的違規案件。在這樣的情況之下，我們看到這個數字，這是社會正義，需要幫助的年輕人因為這樣子的情勢導致他一直delay在等，這是非常不對的情況。所以本席要請教部長，這一千多案的違規案件，在未來貸款審核的機制上面有什麼樣的調整精進方案？請說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，新青安的目的就是協助沒有自有房屋的國民朋友們可以用比較優惠的條件貸款，然後買他的房屋。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，所以面對到這樣的問題，你要怎麼辦呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：所以我們給予有關利息的補貼，當然要正常運用，不能拿去出租跟人頭……所以第一個，貸前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，現在變成一千多案的樣態出來，怎麼改進？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我們前面兩波查到的是兩千一百多戶，已經追回的利息有兩千七百多萬，也就是說國家資源有限，應該要給真正需要協助的人。所以另外您提到我們有什麼加強的措施，第一個，在貸前的時候要詳盡的審核，我們的公股行庫都已經在做了……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：詳盡審核。"],["莊部長翠雲：詳盡審核。第二個就是貸後的管理追蹤，看有沒有出租，或者在審核之前就要看有沒有人頭……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以加強審核管控機制。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，加強審核再貸後管理，然後對於申請新青安符合資格的人，我們應該優先讓他可以貸得到錢，讓真正需要的人可以用得到這項措施。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請你把精進方案給本席。"],["莊部長翠雲：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為我們一定要確保這個政策的資源是真正要落實給有需要的年輕人，這是我們的目標。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，沒錯，確實如此。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我們一起加油，精進方案給本席。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：據媒體3月12號報導，我國詐騙猖獗，讓全國民眾非常不安，發生銀行與其他人共組詐騙集團遭地檢署起訴，金管會副局長表示，在這樣的情況之下，不管是存匯交易、客戶身分持續審查及帳戶監控作業、員工異常行為管理等機制，似乎沒有完善建立及未確實執行內部控制機制，違反內稽內控辦法，要處2,200萬罰鍰，在這樣情況之下，請教部長，詐騙集團猖獗，你們要怎麼樣內控，請做說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，發生這樣的事情，我們也覺得很遺憾，也就是說我們的銀行其實應該要一起做打詐、防詐、堵詐，但是竟然有銀行行員跟外人共組，然後做這樣事情，第一個，地檢署已經起訴了；第二個，我們已經把他免職了；第三個，對於內部人員已經做了行政懲處。那金管會的罰鍰，當然我們就尊重金管會金檢機關的重罰，後續我們應該要強化內控機制，以及強化行員，要告訴他們千萬不能有僥倖的心，不能去做這樣的事情，否則一定是不能寬……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，因為我們都是模範生，公股銀行都是模範生。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，不能寬貸。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不能寬貸，好。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們各公股銀行是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為公股銀行大家都很辛苦，因此財委會在審查總預算的時候也通過要拉近國營金融事業機構及泛公股金融機構，因為他們太辛苦了又不夠……所以我們至少要balance，大家平衡一點，所以我們也提出在他的伙食費、生育補助，這一點非常重要，他的獎金、員工福利以及信託等這些項目可以好好地來協助，讓公股銀行的行員能夠願意繼續為大家努力，在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教你們現在的進度到哪裡？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們的進度，財政部已經提了5項方案報到行政院，人事總處對其中的生育補助已經在3月6號開會，其他項目在徵詢相關機關的意見當中，方案裡面包括生育補助，我們認為應該每胎10萬塊，不管是行員自己或他的配偶……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這非常重要，每胎10萬塊。"],["莊部長翠雲：第二個，伙食費的部分，在外加的部分是每個月3,000塊。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：每個月3,000塊伙食費。"],["莊部長翠雲：第三個，經營績效獎金希望從原來總額的4.4個月提高到4.6個月。第四個，提撥1%到8%的稅前盈餘當作激勵員工在表現上及績效上好的給予激勵。第五個，員工福利信託，也就是每個月他提撥1,000，銀行提撥1,000，然後讓他退休的時候可以有一個好的資金來過退休生活。這個部分，財政部都已經在2月的時候報行政院。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我們歡喜地聽到財政部也做出方案，這也是在大院裡頭正式通過的主決議，我們的目的是什麼呢？最重要的是要留住人才，因為現在人才是非常難請，公股銀行所有的員工都是這麼這麼的優秀，我們希望可以把他們留下來。部長，要加油，你預估什麼時候在其他……也就是生育的10萬OK了；伙食費是每個月3,000；獎金部分，從4.4個月升為4.6個月；員工福利部分，稅前盈餘提撥了1.8%來作為……"],["莊部長翠雲：1%到8%。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1.8%？"],["莊部長翠雲：1%到8%。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1%到多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：8%。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1%到8%？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是8%之內，這是稅前盈餘的部分……"],["主席：部長，你是不是把完整的員工資料提供給瓊瓔委員？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後是員工福利信託部分……"],["主席：瓊瓔委員，外部委員是5分鐘的時間。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：希望你趕快去把它完整出來，讓大家安心，好不好？謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時10分）","繼續開會（11時19分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接著請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159446","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159446","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0e3caca824cef0ef356c3f89dc79e7a2560f1855e115a4ba47439805f15628b065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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113這幾年了在花蓮投入的相關的這個中央管河川及海岸"},{"start":334.875,"end":361.782,"text":"其實主要都是中央管核穿的所投入的經費這個代理部署長請問一下署長以110年然後這個2億在花蓮這個大概是三十分之一吧整個你們的總預算差不多三十分之一可能還更低投入的真的很少"},{"start":364.266,"end":390.511,"text":"而且整個都是修整修整件的部分只有一筆整件的部分只有一筆其他都是修都是修好我上次也舉過這個例子花蓮大橋到葉美部落193線道一颱風就塌方一颱風就下雨塌方"},{"start":391.71,"end":419.071,"text":"其實很重要的因素就是花蓮溪的整治這個堤防對不對上次我也講過所以這個部分要投入要投入我再舉第二個例子北岡大橋它相安無事了但是因為你們把這個河川七一線劃得很大已經有堤防了"},{"start":420.424,"end":445.396,"text":"已經有提防了我的前輩楊榮福立委的時候好不容易提防提防提防蓋了就是要去解決我們土地的問題了我們沒有發生災害了我們是希望我們的土地不要一直變成河川其一的土地不要一直變成水利用地然後能夠把土地的產權能夠給我們還給我們就這樣而已"},{"start":449.434,"end":477.814,"text":"堤防也蓋了 結果河川七一線越劃越大河川七一線劃到這個堤防的跟部落的之間這很奇怪 大概前台灣可能是唯一的還是唯一的一例我不知道為什麼既然是要這樣 繼續河川七一線要這樣堤防再蓋啊 再拉長啊"},{"start":479.687,"end":507.82,"text":"提防再拉長這個部分請水利署仔細的去再去考量不是考量去做就去做另外這個也讓部長知道有時候這個地方這個是成功鎮台東成功鎮八翁部落多峰段的這海岸海岸"},{"start":510.036,"end":532.513,"text":"這個海岸被沖洗有房子有住家住家已經快被清洗了海岸還不做推來推去跟地方政府推來推去然後這個是有私有土地當然是要保護私有土地"},{"start":533.715,"end":558.673,"text":"然後這個有零物質的土地 零液屬的土地國有土地也要保護啊 不要避免台灣變成越來越小啊所以海岸管理法14條規定得很清楚啊為防止海岸災害 預防海水倒灌國土流失 國土流失啊私有土地跟公有土地多是國土"},{"start":559.69,"end":584.357,"text":"保護民眾生命財產安全海岸地區有限愛情事宜者得失其嚴重情形化作為一級或二級海岸防護區而且這個都是要由誰中央主管機關來去做所以這個部分請署長立即去處理好不好好謝謝署長好謝謝委員"},{"start":588.049,"end":589.38,"text":"好謝謝我們現在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":470,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時47分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。水電雙漲是我們非常不希望的，卓院長特別說時機未定，但是部長表示「水龍頭轉開就有水，這是成本很高的事情」，當然，水的部分有很多因素，以臺灣來講，本來是不應該缺水，但是有很多因素，所以應該要合理的處理。至於電的部分，我們看電費漲價、降價的歷史，當然是有漲有降，但是我們看這幾年的數據，從2022年10月漲8.4%，2023年4月漲11%，然後2024年4月、2024年10月，漲的比率也都很高，所以下個月、4月份審議委員會要開會了，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這部分有很多因素必須去思考。部長去年剛上任時我是非常期待，因為你曾經也發表過有關核能的言論，但是後來這個部分你就比較不講了，前幾天總統府氣候變遷委員會副召集人和碩董事長童子賢說，核電可以年省好幾千億元、N千億元。他還特別提到，2023年全臺灣的用電2,821.4億度，如果全部用太陽能發電的話，需要10.5個臺北市的土地才能生產足夠的電。核二、核三的發電效率非常好，成本非常低，根據台電去年公布的發電成本資料，每一度電1.42元，而台電向民間購入的風力和太陽能的發電成本，分別為6.59、4.87，差別很大。部長，你是經濟的專家，業界出來的，這個成本應該要非常的清楚。當然他還提到後面的部分，因為時間的關係，我就不再唸了。","其實一開始你上任的時候我就在這邊講過，你應該召集核電的專家、台電來仔細的討論，然後要就我們這8年多來，甚至9年來，在綠能的方面投入了多少經費，包括台電買這些電又投入了多少經費，這樣去算，如果是你的話，絕對不可能這樣，如果這個事業給你做的話，不可能像這樣的方式嘛！這個部分請部長繼續努力，這個是我們所期待的，就是不要再漲，電不要再漲，水也不要漲。","接下來要談的跟台電沒有關係，跟水利署有關係。本席上次質詢經濟部的有答復了，從110、111、112、113這幾年，在花蓮投入的相關中央管河川及海岸，其實主要都是中央管河川所投入的經費，請問一下代理署長，110年花2億在花蓮，大概是整個總預算的三十分之一，差不多三十分之一，可能還更低，投入的真的很少，而且整個都是整修，整建的部分只有一筆，其他都是修。我上次也舉過這個例子，花蓮大橋到月眉部落，193線道一颱風就下雨坍方，其實很重要的因素就是花蓮溪的堤防整治，對不對？上次我也講過，所以這個部分要投入。我再舉第二個例子，北岡大橋，相安無事啦！因為你們把河川區域線畫得很大，已經有堤防了，我的前輩楊仁福立委的時候，好不容易堤防蓋了，就是要去解決土地的問題，沒有發生災害了，我們希望我們的土地不要一直變成河川區域的土地，不要一直變成水利用地，然後能夠把土地的產權還給我們，就這樣而已。堤防也蓋了，結果河川區域線越畫越大，河川區域線畫到堤防跟部落之間，這很奇怪，大概在全臺灣可能是唯一的一例，我不知道為什麼？既然河川區域線要這樣，堤防再蓋啊！再拉長啊！堤防再拉長，這個部分請水利署仔細去做考量！","另外，也讓部長知道，這個是臺東成功鎮八嗡嗡部落都豐段的海岸，這個海岸被沖蝕，房子、住家已經快被侵蝕了，海岸還不做，跟地方政府推來推去。這個是私有土地，當然要保護私有土地，然後有林務局的土地、林業署的土地，國有土地也要保護啊！避免臺灣變得越來越小，所以海岸管理法第十四條規定很清楚，為防治海岸災害，預防海水倒灌、國土流失，私有土地跟公有土地都是國土，保護民眾生命財產安全，海岸地區有下列情形之一者，得視其嚴重情形劃設為一級或二級海岸防護區，而且這個都是要由誰？中央主管機關來去做，所以這個部分，請署長立即去處理，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝部長。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請邱志偉委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","邱志偉","張嘉郡","呂玉玲","賴士葆","洪孟楷","鍾佳濱","郭國文","陳昭姿","林月琴","李坤城","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","陳冠廷","徐富癸","羅智強","陳超明","林德福","牛煦庭","蔡易餘"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期經濟委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請經濟部部長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00004"}}},{"id":"159445","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159445","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb09396bdd9d21d6783b06f2ced2e0bc09060f1855e115a4ba49be7746c6163105b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:50:34 - 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我請部長請部長委員好 是 部長早我想剛剛前面委員都在提台灣因為美國川普上台以後其實我們碰到很大的很大的挑戰尤其是川普有一個很重要的政策叫做對等關稅 對吧"},{"start":31.297,"end":48.699,"text":"對等關稅對他來說國外收他高額關稅他就要收你高額關稅同樣的他會要求關稅公平接下去你覺得台灣跟美國在除了現在在炒的半導體之外還有哪些我們可能會被美國要求對等關稅"},{"start":50.989,"end":59.351,"text":"對於對等關稅剛剛委員說的是一個就是他課我多少現在我們可能有哪些會變成到這個我們有盤整過有統計過有討論過嗎我們當然有盤點剛剛也提到第一個對於從美國進口的我們的前20大30大的貨幣大概有多少項目多少內容另外對於我們出口到美國的主要的產品以及它的金額我們都有做盤點"},{"start":79.135,"end":99.935,"text":"大概有多少會受影響還不知道還是還在盤點影響的話第一個就要看他提出的對等關稅第一個就是項目是什麼然後稅率是什麼然後我們當然也在研議部長這個不用再去看他提出來現在就長在那邊第一個現在我們收他多少他收我們多少都是明確的我只要問你說"},{"start":100.816,"end":121.453,"text":"你們什麼時候會盤點結束我們可能會受到對等關稅的影響有哪些項目我們已經盤點完成那你可不可以把這些東西提供給我們委員會的委員也提供會提供給相關部會我就舉一個簡單的例子是汽車汽車在台灣當然我們有關稅有貨物稅"},{"start":124.076,"end":149.534,"text":"最重要我們可能還有奢侈稅這些相關的稅額對川普來說他可能都是稅那我們現在一台100萬的車從美國進口來大概我們要收到貨物稅LiLiCoCo加起來可能要收到50萬左右的稅也就是我們的稅負是50%但是如果我們的汽車出口到美國它的關稅只有2.5%這個會被變成對等關稅的要求"},{"start":153.177,"end":176.227,"text":"部長你覺得我們要不要因應呢對於各種的方案我們都在因應中我們都在研擬因應當中你們要因應第一個初步盤整的資料提供給我們委員會還有本席第二個我們現在因應的狀況我們有沒有去跟他們溝通或者甚至是做協調上一次好像說經濟部也派人去財政部有派人去嗎我們財政部沒有所以接下來是整個政府要動起來"},{"start":181.989,"end":208.559,"text":"看起來川普政府不會停止而且他雷利風行立刻會處理所以不能等你慢慢盤點我也希望你們快一點第二個像汽車進口這個就很具體包括剛剛講的那些關稅都漲在那邊麻煩你們整理出來現在有可能受到所謂的對等關稅我們會受到的衝擊我覺得財政部包括我們的相關部會都應該給立法院一個完整的檢討"},{"start":209.859,"end":219.383,"text":"其實行政部門都一直都在動我希望是部長還有另外一個就是我國經過三次的重要的複稅改革里程碑在民國57年76年還有96年分別組成過複稅改革委員會"},{"start":226.005,"end":245.323,"text":"所以大概抓一抓就是每20年會做一次的檢討也就是說整個社會原來的稅制它因為因應它的變遷它會有一些調整那現在已經是第18年了也就是說我們這個稅賦改革委員會之前開過三次接下去"},{"start":246.324,"end":266.004,"text":"財政收支劃分法通過地方稅我們常常這邊說娛樂稅印花稅還有我們常常說不合時宜的貨物稅都應該要再做檢討了而且財政部一直說要再檢討所以我們今天有個提案如果可能的話有關稅剛剛講川普要針對關稅"},{"start":269.247,"end":290.268,"text":"出招第二個很多的碳稅有些國家真有些國家可能考慮不真的那我們未來的計劃是什麼那營業稅所得稅等等稅制這幾年的超收也應該要檢討一下我們的稅制所以我們提案說請財政部在半年之內研議是不是在"},{"start":291.724,"end":304.04,"text":"20年即將到期的狀況我們來重新要準備召開財富稅改革委員會部長你的意見呢是委員稅制本來就是應該與時濟進隨著社會經濟有一個變化所以我們可以比較前面政府每20年做這樣的檢討"},{"start":309.987,"end":334,"text":"那當然我們107年也做過負稅的整個所得稅的一個優化一個大幅的一個變動所以一直都在滾動式的一直在檢討跟全國負稅改革會議這也是上次財化法的公聽會很多學者專家提出來的希望財政部去研擬相關的計畫我覺得至少20年了要做一次完整的檢討"},{"start":334.94,"end":352.977,"text":"這個部分我們再來研議它的可行性跟必要性所以這是我們希望財政部至少之前的政府做現在政府也應該做好接下來是有關居住正義的問題我們上次跟民團開了一個記者會我們現在所謂的所得稅的"},{"start":354.951,"end":378.372,"text":"報稅的資料從列舉扣除了12萬改成特別扣除了18萬接下來要報稅了這些東西我們發現有一大部分的民眾兩成不知道五成不敢報部長這是中烏黑市一直沒辦法解決的問題我們現在要做的是這個政策出來了立法通過了很多人不知道這件事情要怎麼解決"},{"start":380.34,"end":408.04,"text":"這個部分剛剛也委員會先宣導第一個宣導第二個我們規劃一個房客可以申訴的一個專線我想第三個你們的網站你們的相關的通知各種都要做但是也跟委員報告我們的政策宣導費被刪了60%我們只能在有限的經費裡面繼續做沒關係你的網站上放了就會很多人報第二個部分我們光內政部包租貸款租金補貼就有68萬戶這個通知至少可以做到吧"},{"start":408.871,"end":438.099,"text":"他們敢報敢申請租金補貼不敢報所得稅這個國家怎麼回事啊這個應該如果是有租金補貼他其實就是公益出租如果他的房客有取得租金補貼的話這個房東就是公益出租人的性質那他的所得稅裡面每個月有一萬五千塊租金補貼我們的法規是不可以去查稅啊我們不是去查稅啊他可以提供資料我們做領現啊是他可以扣繳我們不是去做查稅用的所以"},{"start":438.759,"end":462.445,"text":"這是一個很重要的幾十萬戶七十萬戶總可以完成吧第三個就是我看到你們去查所得稅逃漏稅的租屋大戶就是這些包租公十戶以上茶盒跟五戶以上茶盒的重大茶盒高達六成都逃漏稅也就是說顯然這些包租公還是很認真的在逃漏稅這個問題要怎麼解決"},{"start":464.977,"end":479.25,"text":"我們已經第一個除了加強查緝之外其他稅制面譬如說提到就是說他的所得稅的部分你如果有讓民眾來申請租金補貼的話我們這邊就給你一萬五一個月的一個免稅的一個扣除啊我想這個部分是多管進行的"},{"start":482.953,"end":510.73,"text":"另外就是房屋稅的部分如果說他有申報的話那租金符合他租金標準的話他的稅率是可以用比較低的房屋稅的稅率所以我們是多管齊下那對於有關這所謂的租屋的黑市這個多管齊下我希望真的有用接下來的房屋稅2.0也希望他把房子拿出來用也希望他能夠拿來用第一個有自住不能自住也麻煩你拿出來租讓大家空屋的話我給你課比較多的稅但是因為台灣的"},{"start":511.67,"end":525.244,"text":"房屋持有成本實在太低了所以這些稅賦的誘因沒有辦法對這些房東有太大的誘惑所以逃漏稅的狀況還是很嚴重很多人剛講五成的人不能報"},{"start":526.823,"end":550.863,"text":"不敢報因為房東叫他不准報這個餓房東才是今天租屋黑市最大的問題好的房東沒有問題餓房東你要是去報了你要是不給你設戶口不給你報租金扣繳所以這些事情才是今天的問題好所以我要問說你覺得房稅2.0對租屋黑市有沒有幫助"},{"start":551.889,"end":579.131,"text":"當然是有幫助啊那妳預期有多少幫助妳預期有多少人可以因為這樣子讓這些所謂的租屋房子真的拿出來租或拿出來用在我想五月開始開徵嘛那申報完以後我們來做一個分析跟比較看看你們的期待跟實際有沒有很大的落差那重點還是查得到才有用查不到都叫做廢話"},{"start":580.632,"end":596.625,"text":"查不到就是白搭現在變成是解決租屋黑市的方法一線的基層非常非常的累因為他加大稽查的數量我覺得政策上面剛剛講的很多的東西其實是可以用政策來替代所謂的查緝"},{"start":597.145,"end":601.711,"text":"我原本不能說我們說的是廢話如果沒有查到沒有增加的話就是廢話我們是多管齊下努力的在查剛剛也有數據查到的數量跟普遍的稅額都有有的都有具體的數據所以不是廢話第三個部分接下來是新清安我想問一下部長"},{"start":614.188,"end":627.44,"text":"還有我們的目前為止新青恩上次我們質詢之後你們才開始查所以查到了第一波第二波違法轉租的包租公還有人頭戶兩波查緝的話大概是一千多件違規是嗎"},{"start":629.195,"end":657.554,"text":"我們前兩波查的違規的人頭跟出租戶有兩千多戶兩千多戶那目前呢已經完成追回利息補貼的有百分之六十七那金額也達到兩千所以其他還沒有追回的原因因為其實我們第一個銀行他因為要去找這個貸款戶他也逐一的一戶一戶那有時候他要有空有時候他要沒有空對不對我們也需要用好好的勸說的方式第一個追回利息不能夠鬆手"},{"start":659.055,"end":679.994,"text":"該查就要查 該追就要追第二 接下去可能會有第三波看到土銀台銀也都在繼續的清查這部分要麻煩這是公平正義的問題麻煩部長這邊再把查細的結果第三波的部分再給本席一個完整的紀錄好的 我們會持續的做好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":723,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時50分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好！"],["黃委員珊珊：部長早！剛剛前面委員都在提，因為美國川普上臺以後，其實我們臺灣碰到很大很大的挑戰，尤其是川普有一個很重要的政策，叫做對等關稅，對吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：對等關稅，對他來說，國外收他高額關稅，他就要收你高額關稅，同樣的，他會要求關稅公平。接下去你覺得臺灣和美國除了現在在吵的半導體之外，我們還有哪些可能會被美國要求對等關稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於對等關稅，剛剛委員說的是他課我多少，我們課……"],["黃委員珊珊：現在我們可能有哪些會面臨到這個？"],["莊部長翠雲：這是我們的想法……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們有盤整過、有統計過、有討論過嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們當然有盤點，剛剛也提到，第一個、對於我們從美國進口的前20大、前30大貨品金額……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以大概有多少項目、多少內容？"],["莊部長翠雲：另外，對於我們出口到美國的主要產品以及它的金額，我們都有做盤點……"],["黃委員珊珊：大概有多少會受影響？還不知道？還是還在盤點？"],["莊部長翠雲：影響的話，就要看他提出的對等關稅，第一個、項目是什麼……"],["黃委員珊珊：我們研議過嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：稅率是什麼，我們當然有在研議……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，這個不用再去看他提出來的，現在就長在那邊，第一個、現在我們收他多少、他收我們多少都是明確的。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，這是明確的。"],["黃委員珊珊：我只是要問你，我們什麼時候會盤點結束？我們可能會受到對等關稅影響的有哪些項目？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們已經盤點完成，已經可以提供，我們也會……"],["黃委員珊珊：那你可不可以把這些東西提供給我們委員會的委員？"],["莊部長翠雲：提供給相關部會。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我就舉一個簡單的例子汽車，汽車在臺灣當然有關稅、有貨物稅，最重要的可能還有奢侈稅，這些相關的稅額，對川普來說，可能都是稅，現在1臺100萬的車從美國進口來，大概我們要收到貨物稅等等，林林總總加起來可能要收到50萬左右的稅，也就是我們的稅負是50%，但是如果我們的汽車出口到美國，它的關稅只有2.5%，這個會不會變成對等關稅的要求？部長，你覺得呢？我們要不要因應呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：對於各種的方案，我們都在因應中，我們都在研擬因應當中。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，你們要因應。第一個、初步盤整的資料提供給我們委員會，還有本席；第二個、我們現在因應的狀況，我們有沒有去跟他們溝通、甚至是做協調？上一次好像說經濟部有派人去，財政部有派人去嗎？還沒？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們財政部沒有參與。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以接下來的是整個政府要動起來，看起來……"],["莊部長翠雲：政府一直都在動。"],["黃委員珊珊：川普政府不會停止，而且他雷厲風行，立刻會處理，所以不能等你慢慢盤點，需要你們快一點。第二個、像汽車進口，這個就很具體，包括剛剛講的，那些關稅都長在那邊，麻煩你們整理出來，所謂對等關稅，現在我們會受到的衝擊，我覺得財政部，包括相關部會，都應該給立法院一個完整的檢討。"],["莊部長翠雲：其實行政部門一直都在動。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望是。","部長，還有另外一個，就是我國經過三次重要的賦稅改革里程碑，在民國57年、76年，還有96年，分別都組成過賦稅改革委員會，大概抓一抓，每20年會做一次檢討，也就是整個社會原來的稅制因應變遷會有些調整。現在已經是第18年了，我們這個賦稅改革委員會之前開過3次，接下去財政收支劃分法通過，地方稅，我們常常說娛樂稅、印花稅，還有我們常常說不合時宜的貨物稅，都應該要再檢討，而且財政部一直說要再檢討，所以我們今天有個提案。如果可能的話，有關稅，剛剛講川普要針對關稅出招；第二個、碳稅，有些國家徵，有些國家可能考慮不徵了，我們未來的計畫是什麼？營業稅、所得稅等等稅制，這幾年的超收，也應該要檢討一下我們的稅制了，所以我們提案請財政部在半年之內研議是不是在20年即將到期的狀況來重新準備召開賦稅改革委員會，部長，你的意見呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，稅制本來就是應該要與時俱進，隨著社會經濟的變化，委員剛剛也提出……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，所以我們可以比照前面的政府每20年做這樣的檢討？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，當然……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們去研議一下吧！要開始準備啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：譬如107年我們也做過所得稅優化的大幅變動，所以一直都在滾動式的檢討及改進……"],["黃委員珊珊：全國賦稅改革會議也是上次財劃法的公聽會很多學者專家提出來的，希望財政部去研擬相關的計畫，我覺得20年了，至少要做一次完整的檢討。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們再來研議可行性及必要性。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我們希望財政部，至少之前的政府有做，現在的政府也應該做。","接下來是有關居住正義的問題，我們上次跟民團開了一個記者會，現在我們的所得稅報稅資料，從列舉扣除額12萬改成特別扣除額18萬，接下來要報稅了，這些東西，我們發現民眾有兩成不知道，五成不敢報，部長，這是租屋黑市一直沒辦法解決的問題，我們現在要做的是這個政策出來了，立法通過了，很多人不知道這件事情，要怎麼解決？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分剛剛顏委員也有提到……"],["黃委員珊珊：宣導、宣導，再宣導。"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個、宣導。第二個，我們規劃一個房客可以申訴的專線，這個部分都可以做……"],["黃委員珊珊：申訴專線。第三個、你們的網站、你們的相關通知……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們的網站，各種都要做，但是也跟委員報告，我們的政策宣導費被刪了60%，我們只能在有限的經費裡面繼續去做……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒關係，你的網站上放了，就會很多人報……"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個部分，光我們內政部包租代管租金補貼的就有68萬戶，這個通知至少可以做到吧！他們敢申請租金補貼，不敢報所得稅，這個國家怎麼回事？"],["莊部長翠雲：如果他的房客有取得租金補貼的話，這個房東就是公益出租人的性質，他的所得稅裡面每個月有1萬5,000元是免稅的……"],["黃委員珊珊：租金補貼，我們的法規是不可以去查稅啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們不是去查稅，他可以提供資料，我們做連線啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：是，他可以扣繳……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們不用去查稅的。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這是一個很重要的，這70萬戶總可以完成吧！","第三個就是我看到你們去查逃漏所得稅的租屋大戶，就是包租公，10戶以上查核和5戶以上查核的重大查核有高達六成都逃漏稅，顯然這些包租公還是很認真的在逃漏稅，這個問題要怎麼解決？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個、除了加強查緝之外，其他稅制面譬如他的所得稅部分，如果他有讓房客來申請租金補貼的話，我們就給他1個月1萬5,000元的免稅扣除……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，可是很多人還是逃漏稅……"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分是多管進行的……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為這跟他的所得還是差很多。"],["莊部長翠雲：另外，就是房屋稅的部分，如果他有申報，租金符合租金標準的話，他的稅率是可以用比較低的房屋稅稅率，所以我們是多管齊下。至於所謂的租屋黑市，我們國稅局都有……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，這個多管齊下，我希望真的有用。接下來的房屋稅2.0也是希望他把房子拿出來用……"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：也希望他能夠拿來用，第一個、自住，不能自住，也麻煩拿出來租，空屋的話，課比較多的稅，但是因為臺灣的房屋持有成本實在太低了，這些稅賦的誘因沒有辦法對這些房東有太大的誘惑，所以逃漏稅的狀況還是很嚴重！剛剛講的，五成的人不敢報，因為房東叫他不准報，這個惡房東才是今天租屋黑市最大的問題……"],["莊部長翠雲：他來報不需要房東同意啊！"],["黃委員珊珊：好的房東沒有問題，惡房東，你要是去報了，不給你設戶籍，不給你報租金扣繳，這些事情才是今天的問題，所以我要問，你覺得房屋稅2.0對於租屋黑市有沒有幫助？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然是有幫助，因為……"],["黃委員珊珊：那你預期有多少幫助？你預期有多少人可以因為這樣子讓這些房子真的拿出來租或拿出來用？"],["莊部長翠雲：5月開始開徵，申報完以後，我們來做一個分析跟比較。"],["黃委員珊珊：看看你們的期待跟實際有沒有很大的落差，重點還是查得到才有用，查不到都叫作廢話，查不到就是白搭。現在變成解決租屋黑市的方法，一線基層非常非常的累，因為他加大稽查的數量，我覺得政策上面，剛剛講的，很多東西其實是可以用政策來替代查緝。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員不能說我們說的是廢話，我覺得我們是……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果沒有查到、沒有增加的話，就是廢話。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們是多管齊下努力地在查，剛剛也有數據，查到的數量跟補徵的稅額都有。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我說要有效的查。"],["莊部長翠雲：有的，都有具體的數據，所以不是廢話。"],["黃委員珊珊：第三個部分，接下來是新青安，我想問一下部長，目前為止，新青安上次我們質詢之後，你們才開始查，所以查到了第一波、第二波違法轉租的包租公還有人頭戶，兩波查緝的話，大概是一千多件違規，是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們前兩波查的違規人頭戶及出租戶有兩千多戶，目前已經完成追回利息補貼的有67%，金額達到兩千多萬。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以錢還沒有追回的原因？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為其實第一個，銀行因為要去找這個貸款戶，他也逐一地一戶、一戶去，有時候他有空，有時候他又沒有空，我們也需要用好好勸說的方式，第一個，追回利息……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以部長，不能夠鬆手……"],["莊部長翠雲：不會鬆手，然後我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：該查就要查，該追就要追。第二，接下來去可能會有第三波，我看到土銀、臺銀也都在繼續清查，這部分要麻煩，這是公平正義的問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：麻煩部長再把查緝的結果、第三波的部分，再給本席一個完整的紀錄，好嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，我們會持續的做。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接著請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_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你好我看早晚也是實話實說吧是 現在人事長這樣一說害我都不好意思接下來要怎麼問您問題了好 那首先我想就是接續的剛剛王一川委員的問題就是到底公務人員去大陸人事總署之前有沒有規定相關的SOP程序有嗎"},{"start":52.048,"end":74.909,"text":"離開台灣的這個遊戲規則是在內政部移民署上有一些相關規定那我們會把這個資料會後再提供給委員參考任市長我剛剛很快的google了一下其實你們人事總書之前就有做過那個PPT啦簡報宣導的什麼公務人員赴大陸偏分成11值等以上跟11值等以下"},{"start":77.197,"end":103.095,"text":"對,十一值等以上嘛,受到比較嚴...十值等以上也沒關係,十值等以上就受到比較嚴格的管制十值等以下就比較沒有,就是一般的報備就可以了那現在關鍵點就是說,到底請假,就是利用自己的休假時間去大陸要不要報備?只要去大陸,不管你是用休假還是公假都要申請"},{"start":103.68,"end":109.425,"text":"都要申請報備嘛基本上報備的這個概念所以這個是現在就有的規定"},{"start":110.857,"end":135.815,"text":"對 那剛剛王議員 王玉川委員他問的這樣的問題顯然是好像沒有做功課所以實際上我們都有在座了我不知道是不是現在已經是有人就違反相關的規定那麼如果說陸委會 移民署或是相關的機關有查到公務人員沒有報備沒有經過許可就去大陸那就把相關處罰案例拿出來講否則的話我覺得這樣刁難任市長我覺得並不公平"},{"start":139.258,"end":160.619,"text":"好那接下來我也想請教的這個問題就是人事長您有注意到在3月17號警察院他有做了一個報告就說現在他們有發現高階公務人員辭職又轉任政務官或者是他短期回任到事務官然後之後又再"},{"start":161.975,"end":180.493,"text":"復回去擔任政務官的這樣子的一個情況屢見不鮮而在近期他們有發現就是在監察院的報告裡面有發現大概累積地方政府還有地方政府的案例大概有11件"},{"start":181.914,"end":197.779,"text":"相關的情況都是政務官短期轉任成務文官再回任到原來的政務職務請問任市長為什麼會有這樣的問題出現我跟委員報告事實上他們這樣操作是"},{"start":200.22,"end":217.962,"text":"符合規定的啦符合規定只是說他這一種轉換的時間太短因為像舉一個例子啦像明年有些縣市首長已經兩任任期到了那有些蠻優秀的公務人員本來是11隻等"},{"start":218.803,"end":243.353,"text":"他現在當政務官嘛那如果明年年底之後他那個縣市長下來以後這個級數首長沒有繼續留任他只能夠領到11職等啊為了等於退休以後對這些常任文官轉政務官的給他比較好的一些待遇他們會去做轉換的動作但是說這個時間太長大家觀感不好啦"},{"start":248.615,"end":261.132,"text":"你如果有半年或者一年大家是覺得還比較OK因為有些是一天或一個禮拜就轉了大家的那種觀感一定是不好的市長您很清楚這樣的問題而且這個"},{"start":264.035,"end":291.66,"text":"優秀的事務官去借調去當政務官之後政務官可能因為首長離開或是首長另有考量那政務官又短暫的離開之後又回到事務官或是又再聘這個政務官這涉及到就是公務員他本身的敘心的問題他的資歷年資甚至有些退休公務員已經借齡退休像這個去年防務部次長陳明堂"},{"start":293.2,"end":313.915,"text":"就是這樣的一個例子嘛因為他已經要借齡退休了那他又必須要辭職 辭職之後又回去當事務官然後11天之後又再被聘為次長歷史這個問題已經長期都存在在我們的公務體系人事總長這個問題沒有辦法解決嗎"},{"start":316.926,"end":343.328,"text":"我認為說你們也失職應該要想辦法去解決這個問題明明就是從多年來這個案例屢見不鮮而且我們現在沒有修法或是人事總處這裡沒有態度要透過怎麼樣行政解釋去讓這些事務官們可以很順利的也銜接他們的年資或他們的續薪等級不要說一定要回到原單位才退休"},{"start":345.623,"end":364.478,"text":"我想我這裡大概可以承諾委員我們再來跟前序部來討論看這個事情要如何比較圓滿的來解決因為事實上現在我理解的就有幾個縣市的高階文官現在是政務官可是他的職等就是十一職等"},{"start":365.218,"end":392.92,"text":"他在那個機關服務五到六年你看這樣的一個年資對之前他們到地方政府服務的對他們來講是相對不公平好OK那接下來我還要進入到另外一個話題就是剛剛其實有些委員有在問了就軍公教條新法制化那麼也知道就是人事總處這裡已經提出了軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案那麼本席其實已經將"},{"start":394.441,"end":417.778,"text":"人事長這邊所提出的這個條例草案有拜讀過你們大概訂定了有七條那裡面有些部分是我感到有疑問的在這邊請教你們這次將在這個條例草案裡面有一個部分就是要未來要成立一個軍公教人員的年度通案待遇調整諮詢會議可是在你們諮詢會議裡面"},{"start":420.197,"end":444.043,"text":"所未來規劃能夠成為諮詢委員的部分譬如說除了人事總長您還有副人事長之外中央機關代表七人地方機關代表四人現職公教人員代表四人專家學者四人就這樣子的一個規劃本席好奇的是你地方機關代表四人你怎麼產生現職公教人員代表四人你怎麼產生"},{"start":448.373,"end":477.311,"text":"我們現在地方機關我們有22個縣市對 我們會 報告委員我們那個地方政府的部分我們會輪流就是說比如說直轄市跟縣市的部分我們會分別就是每一屆的委員所以22個縣市你要輪流幾次才會輪到目前都是用目前中央教代理審議委員會也是這種機制就是說地方所以這樣的制度是不合理的啊不是嗎"},{"start":479.303,"end":485.247,"text":"所以有可能都是先從民進黨政府執政的縣市先輪不會不會像現在桃園跟台東關我們會有直轄市還有一般的16個縣市的像台東的還有桃園的我們一般來講我們會注意到這個橫平性"},{"start":502.901,"end":520.753,"text":"是啦我要提醒你們就說是這樣子的安排基本上不是很合理而且是由你們人事總署自己去指定哪些地方機關可以去推派代表除此之外現職公教人員代表四人我們現在台灣有多少的公務員有多少的公教人員"},{"start":522.932,"end":549.708,"text":"然後你要怎麼樣去領選這四位公教人員報告委員我們那個縣職公教人員代表是由那個全國工人協會跟中華民國全國教師會各推派兩人因為他們都屬於全國性的一個協會一個團體所以會由這兩個團體分別指派兩位代表來參與那你如果是這樣的話應該是說是不是就應該是說是由這個公教人員的相關組織來推派"},{"start":553.405,"end":557.061,"text":"坦白說這公務人員協會它是公會嗎"},{"start":559.291,"end":585.208,"text":"他是協會嘛 他不是工會嘛剛剛羅志強委員有講我們現在台灣是一個有全世界的驕傲就是我們的工時很長我這邊要跟任市長講台灣另外一個全世界的驕傲就是我們公教人員被政府管得死死的尤其是公務人員到現在為止全世界沒有公務人員 工會的就只有台灣"},{"start":588.106,"end":604.543,"text":"大部分國家都沒有 如果有的話大概英國有而已美國自由之家社就已經說了全世界唯一沒有公務人員公會的國家就是中華民國"},{"start":609.381,"end":622.244,"text":"連現在對岸中國大陸他們都有公務人員工會但是我們沒有所以這個就是一個很嚴重的問題啊我們公務人員不能組工會以至於政府要我們簽拒絕簽這個忠誠切結書我們就得簽會不會是定義翻譯的問題"},{"start":630.665,"end":653.555,"text":"他不是公會而是協會政府機關我們公務人員都有協會法尤其這一次的協會法也有做一些換官我要說的是我們總是要向西方新進國家學習請您告訴我日本韓國歐盟這些國家美國有哪些國家是沒有公務人員公會的"},{"start":654.93,"end":679.297,"text":"我們會後提供給委員我們手上有資料市長你覺得公務人員該不該有工會我個人是覺得現在公務人員協會法你支持公務人員有工會我是支持公務人員協會對於工會的話因為我們還有一些疑慮而且公務人員的公會本身他是公務人員你今天在政府機關服務是有"},{"start":680.737,"end":705.481,"text":"按照那個法律的國家法律的義務責任跟一般的工會他的規定不一樣請問一般的勞工不需要依法嗎他不需要遵守現行的教官法律嗎用的法律不一樣用的法律不同啊教師要遵守教師法公務人員要遵守公務人員法就公務人員來講他的雇主就是國家就是政府我講白一點啦我如果是"},{"start":706.621,"end":729.038,"text":"我要主公會他的訴求就是要罷工嗎民眾對政府公務人員的罷工大家支持嗎這個問題我覺得是核心的問題要先討論如果民眾對公務人員罷工這個議題有意見的話我覺得這個政策還是先在公務人員缺口裡面來進行其實任市長我覺得您的觀念是落伍的"},{"start":730.559,"end":756.511,"text":"產住資工會不是只有罷工包含勞資協商包含權益的福利等等這些都可以現在協會基本上它這個功效不彰而且如果你認為協會就有為什麼不能夠直接就是定在工會法裡面啊你要弄了一個特別的公務人員協會所以這個就是一個根本的觀念我們現在已經進入到21世紀"},{"start":759.272,"end":779.663,"text":"我們台灣應該要像我們在尤其是在公務員的體制法制方面要向先進國家學習否則公務人員永遠被政府吃死死管死死不會喔所以是"},{"start":781.498,"end":800.37,"text":"所以任市長你不知道最近因為這個你們也配合陸委會要求大家要填公教人員要填這個忠誠切結書這件事情你不知道基層有反彈嗎非常少數為什麼不改"},{"start":806.437,"end":833.433,"text":"是 我同意你這句話對國家忠誠問題沒有打折的空間所以到底現在我們的政府是抓到有幾個公教人員是違反國安法 違反反滲透法的填這樣的忠誠切結書就能夠表示不是用抓的啦我沒有我們不是用抓的我們是鼓勵大家要誠實去申報啦因為我們政府就是靠誠實申報"},{"start":834.898,"end":862.847,"text":"是誠實申報 你的誠實申報辦你就定在法律裡面啊現在相關規定已經有了相關規定有規定在哪裡有規定在哪裡兩岸關係條例沒有要求大家要誠實申報啊所以我的意思是講說這個其實就是涉及到任市長您對於公教人員的地位權益尊嚴的一個態度一個觀念想法"},{"start":864.042,"end":892.888,"text":"我現在我完全支持我們政府如果說有查到任何的公務人員違反兩岸關係條例違反反滲透法、國安法或是國家經濟保護法要嚴懲但是這是屬於政府機關自己要依法行政依職權去調查而不是叫大家全部都來簽竊結書現在我還只是針對公教人員現在已經擴大到所有的國營事業那下一個階段呢"},{"start":893.428,"end":916.034,"text":"是不是所有的企業勞工全部大家都要填最後是每個人以後都要自己申報都要填這個調查書我跟委員報告一件事情這就像銀行叫我們要填個人資料保護的相關的先告那個觀念一樣不要把它變成一個汙名化它就是我你就是來碰碰的這樣你也沒有我沒有"},{"start":917.714,"end":938.182,"text":"我不是說要汙名化我現在意思是講說任市長你要從根本的怎麼樣去維護公教人員的尊嚴權益這個角度去出發就像我說的99.9%的公教人員都會填但是也要去尊重那些為什麼不想填的人"},{"start":939.002,"end":953.64,"text":"他們就是匪諜嗎?他們就是中共同步人嗎?不想舔的人他可以不舔而且也沒有罰則目前的遊戲規則就是這樣謝謝翁小林委員給你雙方都很完整的論述跟回答謝謝我們現在休息五分鐘"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":593,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（10時35分）很高興今天聽到主席稱讚我，實不敢當，立法院美麗又有智慧的女委員非常多，我可能還稱不上。接下來有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。不要謙虛了，就是你。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。我看召委也是實話實說吧！"],["翁委員曉玲：喔、是，哇！人事長這樣一說，害我都不好意思接下來要怎麼問您問題了。首先，我想接續剛剛王義川委員的問題，到底公務人員去大陸，人事總處之前有沒有規定相關的SOP程序，有嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：離開臺灣的遊戲規則在內政部移民署有一些相關規定，我們會把這個資料會後再提供給委員參考。"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長，我剛剛很快地google了一下，其實你們人事總處之前就有做過PPT簡報宣導，有關公務人員赴大陸篇，分成11職等以上和11職等以下。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們有分兩級……"],["翁委員曉玲：對，11職等以上……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：10職等。"],["翁委員曉玲：10職等以上，沒關係，就是10職等以上受到比較嚴格的管制，10職等以下比較沒有，一般的報備就可以了。現在關鍵點就是到底利用自己的休假時間去大陸要不要報備？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：只要去大陸，不管你是用休假還是公假都要申請。"],["翁委員曉玲：對，都要申請報備，基本上就是報備的概念，所以這個是現在就有的規定。剛剛王義川委員問這樣的問題顯然好像沒有做功課，所以實際上我們都有在做了，我不知道是不是現在已經有人違反相關規定？如果陸委會、移民署或是相關機關有查到公務人員沒有報備、沒有經過許可就去大陸，那就把相關處罰案例拿出來講，否則的話，我覺得這樣刁難人事長並不公平。","接下來我想請教的問題就是，人事長，您有注意到在3月17號監察院做了一個報告，現在他們有發現高階公務人員辭職又轉任政務官或者是他短期回任到事務官，之後又再回去擔任政務官，這樣的情況屢見不鮮。近期在監察院的報告裡面也發現，累積地方政府和中央政府的案例大概有11件，相關的情況都是政務官短期轉任常務文官，再回任到原來的政務職務。請問人事長，為什麼會有這樣的問題出現？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，事實上，他們這樣操作是符合規定的，只是他這種轉換的時間太短，舉一個例子，像明年有些縣市首長已經兩任任期到了，有些蠻優秀的公務人員本來是11職等，他現在當政務官，如果明年年底那個縣市長下來以後，這個局處首長沒有繼續留任，他只能夠領到11職等，等於退休以後，為了對這些常任文官轉政務官的，給他一些比較好的待遇，他們會去做轉換的動作，但是說真的，時間太短，大家觀感不好啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，所以人事長……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：你如果有半年或者一年，whatever，大家覺得還比較OK！因為有些是一天或一個禮拜就轉了，大家的觀感一定是不好的。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，人事長，您很清楚這樣的問題，而且優秀的事務官借調去當政務官，之後政務官可能因為首長離開或是首長另有考量，政務官離開之後又回到事務官，或是又再聘為政務官，這涉及到公務員本身敘薪的問題，包括他的資歷、年資，甚至有些退休公務員已經屆齡退休，像去年法務部次長陳明堂就是這樣的例子，因為他已經要屆齡退休，他又必須要辭職，辭職之後又回去當事務官，然後11天之後又再被聘為次長，類似這樣的問題已經長期都存在我們的公務體系。請問人事總長，這個問題沒有辦法解決嗎？我認為你們也失職，應該要想辦法去解決這個問題，明明多年來這樣的案例屢見不鮮，而且我們現在沒有修法，或是人事總處也沒有態度要透過怎麼樣的行政解釋，讓這些事務官們可以很順利地銜接他們的年資或他們的敘薪等級，不要說一定要回到原單位才退休。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我想我在這裡可以承諾委員我們會再跟銓敘部討論看看這件事情要如何比較圓滿地解決，因為事實上……"],["翁委員曉玲：這是陷公務員於不義嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就我理解有幾個縣市的高階文官現在是政務官，可是他的職等就是十一職等。"],["翁委員曉玲：是啊，這也是很不公平的事啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：他在機關服務五到六年，你看這樣的年資對於之前他們到地方政府服務的部分，對他們來講是相對不公平啦！"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來我要進入另外一個話題，其實剛剛有些委員在問軍公教調薪法制化，我們也知道人事總處已經提出軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案，本席其實已經拜讀過人事長所提出的條例草案，你們訂定了7條，裡面有些部分是我感到有疑問的，想在這邊請教。這次在這個條例草案裡面，有一個部分是未來要成立軍公教人員年度通案待遇調整諮詢會議，在你們的諮詢會議裡面，未來規劃能夠成為諮詢委員的部分，譬如除了人事總長及副人事長之外，中央機關代表7人，地方機關代表7人，現職公教人員代表4人，專家學者4人。就這樣子的規劃，本席好奇的是，地方機關代表4人是怎麼產生？現職公教人員代表4人是怎麼產生？就地方機關而言，現在我們有22個縣市。"],["林處長錦慧：報告委員，有關地方政府的部分，我們會輪流，譬如直轄市跟縣市的部分我們會分別，就是每一屆的委員我們會……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以22個縣市要輪流幾次才會輪到？"],["林處長錦慧：目前軍公教待遇審議委員會也是這種機制，就是說地方……"],["翁委員曉玲：所以這樣的制度是不合理的啊！不是嗎？有可能都是先從民進黨政府執政的縣市先輪啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不會、不會，我們會有直轄市的，還有一般16個縣市的，像臺東還有桃園，一般來講我們會注意到衡平性。"],["翁委員曉玲：我要提醒你們的是，這樣子的安排基本上不是很合理，而且是由人事總處自行指定哪些地方機關可以推派代表。除此之外，現職公教人員代表4人，現在臺灣有多少公教人員？你要怎麼樣遴選這4位公教人員？"],["林處長錦慧：報告委員，現職公教人員代表是由全國公務人員協會及中華民國全國教師會各推派兩人，因為他們都是屬於全國性的協會團體，所以會由這兩個團體分別指派兩位代表來參與。"],["翁委員曉玲：如果是這樣的話，應該說是由公教人員相關組織來推派，是不是？坦白說，公務人員協會是工會嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：它是協會。"],["翁委員曉玲：它是協會，它不是工會嘛！剛剛羅智強委員有講，現在臺灣成為全世界的驕傲就是我們的工時很長，我在這邊要跟人事長講，臺灣另外一個全世界的驕傲就是我們公教人員被政府管得死死的，尤其是公務人員，到現在為止，全世界沒有公務人員工會的就只有臺灣，請問……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有啦，大部分國家都沒有啊！如果有的話，大概只有英國有而已，其他大部分都沒有，包括美國、法國、日本也都沒有啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：美國自由之家已經說了，全世界唯一沒有公務人員工會的國家就是中華民國。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得這個訊息……"],["翁委員曉玲：現在連對岸的中國大陸都有公務人員工會，但是我們沒有，所以這是一個很嚴重的問題啊！我們的公務人員不能組工會，以致於政府要他們簽忠誠切結書他們就得簽，然後他們不能主張權益……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，會不會是翻譯的問題？它不是工會，而是協會，我們政府機關的公務人員都有協會法，尤其這一次的協會法也有做一些放寬。"],["翁委員曉玲：我們總是要向西方先進國家學習，請您告訴我，日本、韓國、歐盟、美國這些國家當中，有哪些國家是沒有公務人員工會的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會後提供給委員，我們手上有資料。"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長，你覺得公務人員該不該有工會？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我個人是覺得現在公務人員協會法……"],["翁委員曉玲：你支不支持公務人員要有工會？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我是支持公務人員協會，對於工會的話，因為我們還有一些疑慮，而且他本身是公務人員，今天在政府機關服務，負有國家法律的義務責任，跟一般的工會規定不一樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：請問一般的勞工不需要依法嗎？他不用遵守現行的相關法律嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：用的法律不一樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：是啊，用的法律不同啊！教師要遵守教師法，公務人員要遵守公務人員法，就公務人員來講，他的雇主就是國家、就是政府……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我講白一點，如果要組工會，他的訴求就是要罷工嗎？民眾對於政府公務人員罷工會支持嗎？我覺得這個核心的問題要先討論，如果民眾對公務人員罷工議題有意見的話，我覺得這個政策還是先在公務人員協會法裡面來執行。"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長，其實我覺得您的觀念是落伍的，組織工會不是只有罷工，包含勞資協商、包含權益、福利等等，這些都可以……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：協會法都有……"],["翁委員曉玲：現在協會基本上功效不彰，而且如果你認為協會就有，為什麼不能夠直接訂在工會法裡面？你又弄了一個特別的公務人員協會……所以這是一個根本的觀念。現在已經進入到21世紀，尤其是在公務員的體制、法制方面，我們要向先進國家學習，否則公務人員永遠被政府吃死死、管死死。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對不起，我們現在不會被政府吃死死……"],["翁委員曉玲：不會喔？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們都會傾聽公務人員的聲音，怎麼會吃死死的呢？"],["翁委員曉玲：人事長，最近因為你們也配合陸委會，要求大家要填公教人員忠誠切結書，這件事情你不知道基層有反彈嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：非常少數，我覺得這是一個核心問題……"],["翁委員曉玲：非常少數？為什麼不改？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對國家忠誠的問題是沒有打折的空間。"],["翁委員曉玲：是，我同意你這句話，對國家忠誠的問題沒有打折的空間，所以現在我們的政府到底抓到有幾個公教人員是違反國安法、違反反滲透法的？填這樣的忠誠切結書就能夠表示……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是用抓的啦！我們不是用抓的，我們是鼓勵大家要誠實申報啦！因為我們政府就是靠這些公教人員……"],["翁委員曉玲：是誠實申報，不然你就把誠實申報定在法律裡面啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在相關規定已經有了。"],["翁委員曉玲：相關規定有規定在哪裡？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：兩岸關係條例……"],["翁委員曉玲：兩岸關係條例沒有要求大家要誠實申報啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就像……"],["翁委員曉玲：我的意思是說，其實這涉及到人事長您對於公教人員的地位、權益、尊嚴的態度、觀念與想法，我完全支持政府如果有查到任何公務人員違反兩岸關係條例、反滲透法、國安法或是國家機密保護法要嚴懲，但這屬於政府機關自己要依法行政、依職權去調查，而不是叫大家全部都來簽切結書！現在還不只是針對公教人員，而是已經擴大到所有國營事業，那下一個階段呢？是不是所有的企業、勞工，大家全部都要填？最後是每個人以後都要自己申報、都要填這個調查書？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告一件事情，這個就像銀行叫我們要填個人資料保護相關宣告的那個觀念一樣，不要把它變成污名化啦！它就是你來簽一簽，你也沒有……"],["翁委員曉玲：我不是說要污名化……"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["翁委員曉玲：我現在的意思是講說，人事長，你要從根本的、怎麼樣去維護公教人員的尊嚴、權益這個角度出發。就像我說的，99.9%的公教人員都會填，但是也要去尊重那些為什麼不想填的人，他們就是匪諜嗎？他們就是中共同路人嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不想填的人可以不填，而且也沒有罰責，目前的遊戲規則就是這樣。"],["翁委員曉玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝翁曉玲委員。雙方都很完整地論述跟回答。","謝謝，我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時51分）","繼續開會（11時）"],["主席（陳委員培瑜代）：好，現在繼續開會。","請莊瑞雄委員進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}},{"id":"159443","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159443","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb01e0881eab5a1e987b06f2ced2e0bc090525a0be0b44ec4a31a911ee759332f825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"10:39:23 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各位立席官員大家早主席有請財政部莊部長好 財政部莊部長寬恆借我幾秒鐘我那個宣布一下我們這個楊瓊英楊瓊英委員花言那個結束以後我們休息五分鐘那個時間暫停然後再補上去是 謝謝委員也謝謝朝委為我們的國營銀行同仁爭取相關的福利 謝謝好 謝謝主席 部長早"},{"start":44.298,"end":72.661,"text":"部長新會期房屋稅2.0新制的實施我們看到付稅署發布的訊息截至3月13日全台還有97萬戶符合自住房屋資格但是還沒有辦妥涉及作業那離期限3月24號只剩下4天目前還有多少用戶的民眾尚未涉及能不能請部長在這邊說明一下更清這個房屋稅2.0新制的一個狀況"},{"start":74.38,"end":88.784,"text":"我想先跟委員報告房屋稅2.0是從去年7月1號開始施行那今年的5月開始按新制再開徵那這個部分的重點的內容呢就是單一自住的話我們的稅率從1.2可以降到1%"},{"start":91.805,"end":113.422,"text":"當然扣除豪宅的部分那另外就是對於沒有做有效利用的部分我們就會做全國歸戶然後按照差額稅率來差額稅率來克制而且每個地方政府都要這樣做那剛剛委員所關切就是說現在用自住的一個稅率的話必須要設戶期那這個部分地方政府各個地方政府都非常積極跟努力的在宣導"},{"start":114.062,"end":136.825,"text":"那目前還有到2月20號的話還有97萬戶還沒有完全設計那目前來說應該還會往下降因為到3月24號那未來呢等到開徵以後呢我們會可能會有一些彈性的措施讓它真正符合自住的民眾可以不要因為這個期限而受到影響但是還是要期限希望他們趕快來"},{"start":138.106,"end":154.561,"text":"但涉及這個部分謝謝委員這個部分我再請教部長就是說新上路的房屋租金抵稅新制新制將房屋租金改為特別扣除額單身租屋主最高可減抵7000多元"},{"start":155.362,"end":175.263,"text":"家庭租屋主最多一萬兩千兩百九十元這是一個好的政策啦我認為說財政部這邊還是沒有想到租屋市場的一個根本問題就是租屋黑市的問題房客為了要避免租金調漲甚至於說被房東刁難的一個風險所以不敢冒險去得罪房東"},{"start":176.084,"end":205.424,"text":"那根據這個租屋聯盟所做的租屋狀況調查54.2%的租屋主因為房東拒絕或者是害怕遭受房東不利對待而無法使用租金抵稅還有超過20%的租屋主甚至不知道租金可以申報扣抵所得稅這個匯民政策很多人是看得到吃不到甚至於不知道所以財政部到底要用什麼樣的手段才能讓這項政策落實到每一個租屋主的身上"},{"start":206.264,"end":223.438,"text":"民團是建議說財政部應該設置房客抵稅申訴專線公開宣示若收到房東妨礙租金抵稅的相關投訴將專案查核該房東是否涉及逃漏租賃所得稅對於這樣建議部長贊不贊成"},{"start":227.17,"end":256.57,"text":"是謝謝委員對這部分的關切第一個就是說在今年新上路的就是有關租金的特別扣除也就是我在外房租房子的話我的租金支出的過往是列在標準列舉扣除現在是放到特別扣除裡面那最高的現在也從12萬條到18萬那這個房客呢他只要拿出相關的租約等等的文件就可以就舉例出來那最高可以到18萬可以去扣抵他的那個做特別扣除額"},{"start":257.41,"end":285.6,"text":"那也不需要房東的同意也不需要房東的同意那另外呢對於這個房東會不會阻礙房客去做這樣的一個申報其實如果對於這個我們現在其實有關相關的租稅優惠對於房東比如說房東他出租給可以申請租金補貼的或者他把這個房子出租給作為社宅使用的話他每個月有一萬五千塊的這個所得呢可以年繳所得所以換句話一年也是有十八萬"},{"start":286.68,"end":315.509,"text":"這個部分可以納入這個扣掉從所得總所得裡面去扣掉所以這是雙面向我們一直第一個我們要照顧在外的租屋族之外同時我們也鼓勵鼓勵房東他要誠實報所得稅然後我也給他一個租金優惠同時他如果出租的話剛剛委員提到就房屋稅的2.0裡面他出租然後他的租金申報符合標準的話那這個部分他稅率是可以用比較低的稅房屋稅的稅率所以我們用多個管項"},{"start":317.511,"end":332.051,"text":"讓房客可以適用讓房東也要去城市申報也要鼓勵但是問題是說房屋黑市的問題終究還是一樣這個都存在嘛所以我們才說設置這個房客抵稅申訴專線部長你同不同意贊不贊成"},{"start":333.172,"end":353.954,"text":"我們可以來做規劃 謝謝委員這個的建議我們會按委員的建議來做這個規劃接下來再請教因為老實講真的民眾是不太清楚啦剛剛有提到有20%以上的民眾是完全不知道那避免資訊不足還有不必要的損失那這個房租租金抵稅新制"},{"start":355.876,"end":381.885,"text":"要積極的做一個宣導讓我們的所有的租屋主都能夠了解清楚這部分財政部要多做一些設計跟規劃不要讓它淪為紙上浮麗我再請教我們部長就是說今天要審查的海關進口稅者修正草案主要是為了要履行我國在南美洲唯一僅存的邦交國巴拉圭的台巴經貿合作協定第八號決議文的關稅減讓承諾"},{"start":385.146,"end":410.961,"text":"修正調降原產至八國的去骨豬肉、小麥粉、襪類、褲類、紡織品等17項貨品調降至免稅米果貨品調降至10%天然蜜貨品分三年逐步調降至20%外交部次長在巴拉圭肉品推廣晚會也表示目標是要讓巴拉圭成為首個享有豬肉進口零關稅的國家"},{"start":411.801,"end":433.554,"text":"那要求這次的海關進口稅者的修正所有旅行台巴經貿合作協議的一個承諾也是國際政經局勢變化中展現我國對邦交國的一個實質支持那透過這個關稅減讓我們強化與巴拉圭的一個經貿合作進一步的鞏固雙邊的一個外交關係這部分"},{"start":436.836,"end":444.088,"text":"這個關稅減少政策財政部是否有配套措施確保我們國內相關產業不會受到衝擊財政部有沒有其他的規劃"},{"start":447.566,"end":470.221,"text":"這個部分對委員報告有關巴拉圭關稅的部分其實產業主管機關都已經有盤點過對我們應該是沒有影響沒有影響那另外也要跟委員報告您剛剛提到希望我們加強這個宣導的部分對今年譬如說新實施的房屋租金特別扣除等等有關的但是我們的宣導費被通篡了60%"},{"start":472.563,"end":500.795,"text":"所以我們會在有限的資源裡面盡力的去做其實這個部分這個就是蠻遺憾的就是在通篩裡面我們被刪了60%那我們會還是會努力去做啦所以我想這個也跟委員報告這個事情這個部長邦交國對我們國際生存空間是非常重要那關稅減讓協議確保我國對邦交國的承諾得以落實然後能夠維持長遠的雙邊關係那確保國內最重要的作用同時就是要確保國內相關產業的生存"},{"start":505.018,"end":517.686,"text":"再請教因為時間有限剛剛有分別很多委員都提到我們上禮拜三月十一號宣布對中國大陸製啤酒與特定熱壓"},{"start":521.348,"end":538.411,"text":"扁雜等鋼品這種兩大產類的製品啟動反傾銷調查隨著川普2.0的到來全球貿易戰現在我們看到川普對墨西哥對加拿大都分別克克這種克徵25%的關稅對中國的產品加徵10%的關稅是疊加在上一次上個月已經開徵的10%"},{"start":546.813,"end":564.834,"text":"那美國計畫對於進口鋼鋁製品課徵25%關稅那他的目的是希望要優先用他們本土生產的這種鋼鋁製材這也會影響他們美國市場的有需求那我是講說這一次中國大陸這個"},{"start":567.296,"end":594.805,"text":"鋼鐵智能過剩那對於我們台灣他一樣以價格的部分來來對於台灣的我們的中農中鋼也造成相當大的一個衝擊那我是認同說政府維護國內產業競爭力的決心那以支持合理的貿易防疫防衛措施那請教部長如果中國大陸採取報復性措施我們有什麼因應的一個策略"},{"start":597.731,"end":602.297,"text":"對於您剛剛所提到的相關的問題比如說像我們對於啤酒大陸的啤酒還有那個相關的熱壓缸的部分的反傾銷的調查這個事實上這個是在我們的一個本來的工作裡面就有一個反傾銷的一個"},{"start":615.352,"end":628.864,"text":"實施辦法那對於有傾銷事實跟對國內的產業遭受損害的部分我們都會按照一定的程序和經濟部以及我們財政部一起進行調查以及認定然後如果符合的話那確實有對我們有傷害的話那就會課徵反傾銷稅"},{"start":632.828,"end":655.774,"text":"那對於有關的有關您剛剛提到比如說川普這些關稅這些的問題我們還是要等到他的相關的細節內容公布以後公布以後來做相對應但是對應的方案目前都在研議當中都在模擬當中這個是沒有都一直在做本期期待財政部提出具體的因應策略確保我們台灣產業的競爭力"},{"start":658.336,"end":664.411,"text":"當然是的會的我們會持續關注然後行政院也有專案小組在做相關的模擬方案的因應是謝謝謝謝部長謝謝寬恆"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":686,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（10時39分）主席、各位列席官員，大家早。主席，有請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：好，財政部莊部長。","寬恒，借我幾秒鐘？"],["顏委員寬恒：可以。"],["主席：我宣布一下：楊瓊瓔委員發言結束以後，我們休息5分鐘。","那個時間要暫停，然後再補上去。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，也謝謝召委為我們國營銀行同仁爭取相關的福利，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：謝謝主席，部長早。部長，新會期房屋稅2.0新制的實施，我們看到賦稅署發布的訊息，截至3月13日全臺還有97萬戶符合自住房屋資格，但是還沒有辦妥設籍作業，離期限3月24號只剩下4天，目前還有多少用戶民眾尚未設籍，能不能請部長在這邊說明一下房屋稅2.0新制的狀況？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想先跟委員報告，房屋稅2.0是從去年7月1號開始施行的，今年5月開始按新制開徵，這個部分的重點內容就是，單一自住的話，我們的稅率從1.2%可以降到1%，當然扣除豪宅的部分。另外就是對於沒有做有效利用的部分，我們就會做全國歸戶，然後按照差額稅率來課徵，而且每個地方政府都要這樣做。","剛剛委員所關切的就是，現在用自住稅率的話必須設戶籍，這個部分各個地方政府都非常積極跟努力地在宣導，目前到2月20號的話還有97萬戶還沒有完全設籍。"],["顏委員寬恒：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：目前來說，應該還會往下降，因為到3月24號。未來等到開徵以後，我們可能會有一些彈性的措施，讓真正符合自住的民眾可以不要因為這個期限而受到影響，但是還是要有期限，希望他們趕快辦理設籍，這個部分謝謝委員的關心。"],["顏委員寬恒：我再請教部長，新上路的房屋租金抵稅新制，新制將房屋租金改為特別扣除額，單身租屋族最高可減抵七千多元，家庭租屋族最多是1萬2,290元。這是一個好的政策，我認為財政部這邊還是沒有想到租屋市場的根本問題，也就是租屋黑市的問題。房客為了避免租金調漲，甚至有被房東刁難的風險，所以不敢冒險得罪房東。根據租屋聯盟所做的租屋狀況調查，54.2%的租外族因為房東拒絕或者是害怕遭受房東不利對待而無法使用租金抵稅，還有超過20%的租屋族甚至不知道租金可以申報扣抵所得稅。這個惠民政策，很多人是看得到吃不到，甚至是不知道，所以財政部到底要用什麼樣的手段，才能讓這項政策落實到每一個租屋族的身上？民團是建議，財政部應該要設置房客抵稅申訴專線，公開宣示如果收到房東妨礙租金抵稅的相關投訴，將專案查核該房東是否涉及逃漏租賃所得稅，對於這樣的建議，部長贊不贊成？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員對這個部分的關切。第一個就是說，在今年新上路的，就是有關租金的特別扣除額，也就是我在外租房子的話，我的租金支出過往是列在列舉扣除額，現在是放在特別扣除額裡面，最高的限額也從12萬調到18萬，這個房客只要拿出相關的租約等等文件就可以舉例出來，最高可以到18萬去扣抵，作為他的特別扣除額，也不須要房東的同意。","另外，對於房東會不會阻礙房客去做這樣的申報，其實現在我們對於相關的租稅優惠，譬如房東他出租給可以申請租金補貼的，或者他把這個房子出租作為社宅使用的話，他每個月有1萬5,000塊的所得可以免繳所得稅，換句話說，一年也是有18萬可以從所得裡面去扣掉，所以這是雙面向。第一個，我們要照顧在外的租屋族之外，同時我們也鼓勵房東要誠實報所得稅，然後給他租金優惠，同時他如果出租的話，剛剛委員也提到房屋稅2.0裡面，他出租的租金申報符合標準的話，這個部分他的稅率是可以用比較低的房屋稅稅率，所以我們用多個選項讓房客可以適用，而房東也要去誠實申報。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，當然要勸導，也要鼓勵，但問題是房屋黑市的問題終究還是一樣，這些都存在嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以我們才說，設置房客抵稅申訴專線部長，你同不同意、贊不贊成？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們可以來規劃，謝謝委員的這個建議。"],["顏委員寬恒：好不好？部長，因為時間有限……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會按委員的建議來做這個規劃。"],["顏委員寬恒：接下來再請教，因為老實講，民眾是真的不太清楚啦！剛剛有提到有20%以上的民眾是完全不知道的，為避免資訊不足，還有不必要的損失，房租租金抵稅新制我們要積極地做宣導，讓我們所有的租屋族都能夠瞭解清楚，這部分財政部要多做一些設計跟規劃，不要讓它淪為紙上福利。","我再請教部長，今天要審查的海關進口稅則修正草案，主要是為了要履行我國在南美洲唯一僅存的邦交國巴拉圭的臺巴經貿合作協定第8號決議文的關稅減讓承諾，修正調降原產自巴國的去骨豬肉、小麥粉、襪類、褲類紡織品等17項貨品調降至免稅，米菓貨品調降至10%，天然蜜貨品分3年逐步調降至20%。","外交部次長在巴拉圭肉品推廣晚會也表示目標是要讓巴拉圭成為首個享有豬肉進口零關稅的國家，要求這次海關進口稅則的修正除了履行臺巴經貿合作協定的承諾，也是國際政經局勢變化中展現我國對邦交國的實質支持。透過關稅減讓，我們強化與巴拉圭的經貿合作，進一步的鞏固雙邊的外交關係，這個關稅減讓政策財政部是否有配套措施，確保國內相關產業不會受到衝擊？財政部有沒有其他的規劃？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關這個巴拉圭的關稅部分，其實產業主管機關都已經有盤點過，對我們應該是沒有影響。","另外，也要跟委員報告，您剛剛提到希望我們加強宣導的部分，譬如對今年新實施的房屋租金特別扣除額等等有關的，但是我們的宣導費被通刪了60%，所以我們會在有限的資源裡面盡力去做，其實這個部分蠻遺憾的，就是在通刪裡面，我們被刪了60%，我們還是會努力去做，也跟委員報告這個事情。"],["顏委員寬恒：部長，邦交國對我們的國際生存空間是非常重要的，關稅減讓協議確保我國對邦交國的承諾得以落實能夠維持長遠的雙邊關係，最重要的就是同時要確保國內相關產業的生存，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員，謝謝委員的關心。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。再請教，因為時間有限，剛剛分別有很多委員都提到，我們上個禮拜3月11日宣布對中國大陸製的啤酒與特定熱軋扁軋鋼品這兩大類製品啟動反傾銷調查。隨著川普2.0的到來，全球貿易戰，現在我們看到川普對墨西哥、對加拿大都分別課徵25%的關稅，對中國的產品加徵10%的關稅，是疊加在上個月已經開徵的10%。美國計畫對於進口鋼鋁製品課徵25%關稅，他的目的是希望要優先用他們本土生產的鋼鋁製材，這也會影響他們美國市場的需求。","我是想說，這一次中國大陸鋼鐵產能過剩，它一樣以價格對我們臺灣的中龍、中鋼也造成相當大的衝擊，我是認同政府維護國內產業競爭力的決心，也支持合理的貿易防衛措施，請教部長，如果中國大陸採取報復性措施，我們有什麼因應的策略？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，對於您剛剛所提到的相關問題，譬如我們對於大陸的啤酒還有相關熱軋扁軋鋼品部分的反傾銷調查，事實上，我們本來的工作裡面就有一個反傾銷的實施辦法，對於有傾銷事實和對國內產業遭受損害的部分，我們都會按照一定的程序與經濟部一起進行調查以及認定，如果符合的話，確實對我們有傷害的話，就會課徵反傾銷稅。","有關您剛剛提到，譬如川普這些關稅的問題，我們還是要等到他的相關細節內容公布以後，再來做相對應，但是對應的方案目前都在研擬當中、都在模擬當中，這個都一直在做。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，部長，本席期待財政部提出具體的因應策略，確保我們臺灣產業的競爭力，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，是的，我們會持續關注，行政院也有專案小組在做相關模擬方案的因應，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝顏寬恒委員。","接著請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159442","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159442","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb038dac5e15d93eebc56c3f89dc79e7a25525a0be0b44ec4a320cac61ede387e4d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"10:32:07 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報告委員我想世博是國際合作跟這個文化交流的重要平台"},{"start":100.066,"end":113.523,"text":"那我們用這個Tech World館除了向全球觀眾展示我國的科技創新實力也將豐富文化與生命活力爭取更多合作的機會謝謝委員剛才的這個勉勵所以厚色比什麼更重要"},{"start":118.008,"end":131.582,"text":"當我們有特色大家的目光焦點全部在我們身上的時候我們得到更多的交流機會這才是重要讓他用各種不同的方式看到我們台灣這個國家的軟實力"},{"start":134.264,"end":163.531,"text":"我相信這才是我們花了這20億很重要的關鍵所以我想我們必須體認我們遇到一個派出品可是我們不能停滯不前我們更應該往前走把台灣更不一樣的聲音與特色展現出來透過各種平台的交流所以再拜託部長我們希望給我們的紅人更多的鼓勵那場館的時間還有場館的特色我相信我們都要把它掌控住"},{"start":164.112,"end":171.793,"text":"再拜託部長部長在另外一個部分就是說我們一直圍繞在你身上的"},{"start":172.714,"end":197.479,"text":"尤其最近就是因為這個台積電赴美投資到底經濟部事前有沒有掌握光這個議題就連炒了好幾天部長我覺得你不可能沒有掌握啦我覺得從國安從經濟議題我們一定都要在每一個環節都掌握住可是可能有些時間點你"},{"start":199.139,"end":224.05,"text":"不應該也不能夠在第一時間做一個很清楚的看法跟對外的說明所以而被誤解了所以既然今天台積電赴美投資這已經很確定了我讓你一個時間你跟我們說一下到底你清不清楚這整個台積電的赴美投資案的狀況"},{"start":225.046,"end":238.925,"text":"報告委員我想謝謝你給我這樣的一個機會能夠在這個地方澄清這一件事情台積電到美國投資這件事情從總統開始以下經濟部我們其實都參與"},{"start":240.366,"end":263.942,"text":"這樣的一個過程那每一個人負擔的這個內容會不一樣經濟部呢當然是知道台積電會去投資那我們把關的地方是在投審會把關的地方在投審會那我想總統跟這個台積電的互動那麼總統我們包括我們的國安包括我們的整個行政院的長官都是一樣都參與這樣的一個討論"},{"start":265.843,"end":292.833,"text":"但是分工分工那经济部做什么事情经济部当然不是只有台积电投资这件事情包括美国的这些关税啊各方面的新政府他们的措施会怎么样所以经济部只扮演一个搜寻这个资讯提供正确的这个资讯给陈锋他们来做最后的判断也给台积电做一个比较完整的这个参考"},{"start":294.478,"end":317.436,"text":"這個大家對我的誤會說你都不知道我怎麼可能不知道我是說那一天我接受訪問的時候那個主持人問我說一千億你知不知道跟委員報告這個是我很多不能說的部分所以我想大家可以諒解這種部分其實坦白講"},{"start":319.178,"end":334.71,"text":"我們去的時候沒有這個數字他大概跟我們應該說大概他要設多少個幾座的晶圓廠還有這個先進的封裝設施或是研發中心他有一個範圍的金額"},{"start":337.773,"end":338.634,"text":"我覺得說因為一句話所以部長以後"},{"start":354.375,"end":383.035,"text":"我們如果說要更精準的回答問題沒錯就是說很清楚說我們知道規模可是金額我們還是要尊重台積電自己的宣布因為我們又不是台積電所以部長這個就是媒體這當中有時候就一句話就會被很多的不一樣的解讀我們就說怎麼可能會不知道而且我們所清楚的在這事前是很多不能講"},{"start":384.335,"end":409.055,"text":"從國安從經濟面那今天因為在這整個台積電的量能對於這個投資對我們台灣的基本面是沒有影響的因為它整個know-how跟研發的關鍵還是在台灣這才是重點所以這當中包括我們的總統包括部長包括各單位都跟台積電非常掌控所有這個訊息是所以"},{"start":410.816,"end":427.632,"text":"我覺得這要說清楚否則會讓我們很多的民眾會有擔憂說台積電這麼嚴重要去美國投資我們不知道不是不知道而是在每一個時間點我們該說的該做的有不一樣的分工"},{"start":428.132,"end":452.141,"text":"而且當台積電畢竟它還是一間上市的公司它很多的一些必須宣布的還是要由它自己來宣布不能是我們政府來宣布所以這個部分還是要很清楚去做很多的一個分頁然後再一個就是說台積電傳說要合資入股Intel這個部分"},{"start":453.691,"end":470.057,"text":"經濟部有掌控嗎還是你認為就像部長所說的你覺得這個訊息其實不是那麼準確報告委員這個新聞如果不是台積電自己發布出來的我們都不予評論"},{"start":472.208,"end":486.804,"text":"這是跟台積電的問題嘛是台積電沒有發布的訊息我們怎麼去評論這個這可能是對很多想到消息或是不一樣的解讀就像一句話會被不一樣解讀所以"},{"start":488.346,"end":509.345,"text":"其實台積電我們在強調它是一個在台灣上市的公司然後在國際間是一個非常重要指標性的一個大廠所以它今天要做任何的所謂的擴展或是有任何的投資基本上是要由它自己來宣布"},{"start":509.765,"end":529.232,"text":"對沒有錯他一定會發重訊像這種事情他一定要發重訊所以他沒有這個確認的事情我想在坊間大家的傳聞經濟部的立場就是不予評論所以部長我們還是認為這個我們不予評論但是有一個重點是我們也要準備好"},{"start":529.992,"end":554.099,"text":"就是說隨時如果萬一他真的對外宣布了我們有沒有準備好了我想那一天我問了相關單位基本上大家其實是準備好的我們都有非常多的simulation很多的基本假設如果這樣子我們怎麼做這樣子做怎麼做我想這麼大的一個公司對國家影響這麼大的一個作為"},{"start":556.185,"end":582.983,"text":"經濟部沒有基本假設沒有提早因應這個是不可能的對所以我覺得這個我們應該講出來讓民眾知道我們政府會因應各種狀況的發生是那我們前提就是不會影響到我們台灣的經濟也不會影響我們整個所謂的半導體或是我們相關產業的一個進步跟成長好這個是很重要謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":427,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（10時32分）謝謝召委。請部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，我想延續一下大阪世博的部分，其實我們更期待的是把我們的特色跟精神要在世博展場當中凸顯，我想這個更重要，所以我們在展場的布置當中，我們不能把我們自己的精神跟特色還有文化放棄，我覺得這個部分是很重要的。名字雖然重要，但是我們的價值、我們的精神、我們的文化跟我們的產業更為重要！這個部分要拜託部長，我們也希望透過各種管道，能夠把臺灣的量能展現出去。我們也知道，現在我們遇到是一個惡鄰居，不斷用各種方式在打壓我們，可是我們不能這樣就停止不前，更要利用各種方式，把臺灣的特色、精神、文化、產業很直接地呈現出來，我們的特色透過設計，其實會展現不一樣的風貌，所以這個部分再拜託部長。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想世博是國際合作跟文化交流的重要平臺，我們用TECH 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你知道吧我知道那麼他也要由當時發肌膚通的吉寶公司來協助那請問要推動TISA跟亞洲資產管理中心有相關您願意在全程範圍內來幫忙推動TISA增加國民的推銷保障嗎"},{"start":67.016,"end":83.994,"text":"這個是國家狀況政策當然財政部會跟金管會都會一起努力好那麼在這財政部可以提供的優惠我也私下先請教過宋署長了說現行的所得稅法對於投資稅制優惠這跟TISA息息相關因為TISA就是一種投資除了所得稅法當中"},{"start":84.875,"end":107.72,"text":"我們8萬元個人直接買股票或存款的利息可以抵減之外在特別扣除的部分我們如果投資基金這些利息信託基金的利息或股利呢是有27萬元的那麼署長跟我說這些呢是足夠提供民眾投資的誘因優惠請問你所知道國人使用這27萬或這8萬用的多不多普普普遍"},{"start":110.093,"end":121.7,"text":"應該不少不少的所以老闆告訴大家不少啊你說現行的報稅系統直接變名就直接帶入所以民眾不曉得他有投資抵稅優惠不知是這樣子的嗎"},{"start":123.595,"end":140.93,"text":"委員報告有的時候您剛剛講就是說我們這些相關的租稅優惠可是民眾不見得都知道那他又想說不知道對但是在TISA的時候我們也跟金管會說我們會跟你合作對於現行有關的租稅優惠我們會陳列出來而且協助去做說明讓民眾可以知道"},{"start":143.672,"end":161.003,"text":"對 協助 我們甚至可以有同仁去協助說明說我們現有的租稅優惠有這麼多那我們來看看這個DISA下一頁好 我們來先看一下台灣的退休金指數排名不如越南和中國很可怕喔倒數第十 不如新加入平等的越南 為什麼"},{"start":161.923,"end":183.818,"text":"我們從公務人員退伍基金管理局來看第一層強制性的社會安全保險像勞保國民年金保險第二層強制的員工退休制度由雇主提撥還有第三層自願性的商業保險儲蓄制度請問我們所說的TISA是不是就是這個第三層就是你去購買投資對你的未來的退休產生一種儲蓄保障是不是這樣"},{"start":185.882,"end":207.976,"text":"應該 除此之外還有其他的對 我說TISA是屬於第三層嘛TISA對對對 是這樣嘛它可以去投資 循序投資的概念好 這三大指標當中充足性 永續性跟完整性當中全眾最高充足性台灣只得到46分表示台灣在第三層的部分有很大的成長空間你認為 是不是認為TISA可以有助於國民退休的第三層保障"},{"start":210.409,"end":238.749,"text":"我想這個部分對於這樣的規劃運用是有幫助的對於民眾未來退休生活的一個...是的那往下看那國人對於退休儲備不足感到憂慮他說我們的壓力來源是生活成本增加退休儲蓄不足最高擔心生活成本不斷提高的六成擔心退休儲備不足的是七成跟六成然後呢把退休儲蓄視為首要的財務目標佔九成還不是財富自由喔那麼"},{"start":239.861,"end":264.506,"text":"民眾就必須透過長期投資跟及早規劃退休那剛剛你也同意了TESA跟這個目前呢息息相關它可以幫助民眾來達成它的首要財務目標可是呢目前金管會檢視啊沒有額外新增個人投資的扣除額在TESA的部分那有沒有考慮財政部來新增投資稅制的優惠來幫助TESA推動"},{"start":269.209,"end":279.971,"text":"我再講一次現在TESA這麼重要能夠有助於國人解決他的財務目標那財政部願不願意新增個人的投資額來協助TESA的推動"},{"start":283.432,"end":304.491,"text":"剛剛委員也羅列了很多我們現有的一些租稅優惠我們也對照過日本也好還有其他國家的租稅優惠其實我們更優於他們所以這個部分事實上是目前來說我們應該是讓民眾知道我們已經有現在有這麼多優惠而民眾不清楚的部分我們可以加強來說明部長因為你這道說詞我聽過宋蘇長講過但我不認同"},{"start":307.045,"end":333.255,"text":"我這樣講好了 我們去住那些高級飯店他們有健身中心 裡面有蒸汽室 有游泳池 有重量訓練結果我們問說 旅客為什麼不去使用健身中心旅客很想要什麼 超慢跑要跑步機啊你說我們這些都可以涵蓋在內 你知道健身中心什麼都有啊可是實況上就是什麼我們國人使用這些租稅優惠的意願跟強度不高"},{"start":334.226,"end":342.893,"text":"那我先問你那如果有人說好因為現在超慢跑很流行我們的健身中心飯店增加一個專區就是跑步機專區你會反對嗎會增加成本嗎"},{"start":347.128,"end":364.688,"text":"本來你說你的健身中心什麼都有就像你說的不管是你的股息你的利息我健身中心的這些項目通通都要來享受可是旅客使用的率不高啊他得到的好處也不多啊但是你說現在旅客喜歡超慢跑我增設一個慢跑機專區可以嗎"},{"start":369.093,"end":396.187,"text":"我幫你們理解到這個比喻我想這個租稅的部分必須涉及的層面比較廣我覺得跟一個飯店裡面去偵測一個跑步機應該是不太一樣我用比喻 你用比喻回答來 我就直接知道你會這樣回答請你們現期內把目前國民使用現期投資稅制當中 優惠當中各個項目的比例 使用率還有金額的區間分布告訴我譬如說27萬國人有多少人在使用這27萬"},{"start":397.648,"end":418.356,"text":"第二 他從不到一萬的到使用滿27萬的 分布是多少第三 他使用哪些項目 是鼓勵鼓息 是鼓勵還是利息這些把它調查出來 我們就知道 是不是像財政部說的我什麼都有 我有27萬讓你用 我不需要再設一個專區專門來針對TESA來提供租稅優惠"},{"start":421.935,"end":434.119,"text":"請你把它調查出來我們再來個輸贏好的我們可以把這個資料可以做統計好我們來看一看現在日本的NISA對照於台灣的TISA日本的舊置它從40萬120萬提高到120萬240萬投資總額從800萬600萬提高到1800萬"},{"start":439.361,"end":466.677,"text":"而我們台灣呢完全沒有增額外的稅務優惠然而日本從舊製到新製他把他的投資的商品從共同基金都弄出來了我們還特定基金喔所以你看日本的結果怎麼樣日本一炮而紅所以從NISA一開始呢他創新高啊是上年同期的3.2倍新開戶超買的就是說我們如果能夠新增額外的稅務優惠來推動TISA"},{"start":467.197,"end":477.882,"text":"就可以充足我們國民退休的第三層保障而且國家也沒有增加額外支出這是我的結論您回去研究一下剛剛保障的那三點要求把它統計出來可以嗎"},{"start":480.143,"end":498.42,"text":"好 我們來看一下 2024年金控員工的平均年薪排行榜我注意到這14家大型金控只有第三名的兆豐 第五名的第一金還有第八名的和庫金 還有第九名的華南金我們的飯宮股只有這四家入榜 是不是這樣"},{"start":504.605,"end":525.973,"text":"這些都是金飯碗民間的金控員工薪資是比較高的但是國營的我們怎麼樣跟飯工股跟民營徵財這裡面有沒有國營的沒有飯工股的有4家是不是這樣子請問一下怎麼樣來讓我們的飯工股或者我們的國營金融機構可以跟民股來徵財"},{"start":528.619,"end":554.102,"text":"我想這個泛公股的部分因為它是泛公股算是一個泛民營化那它可以用公司治理以及自己按自己他們自己的內規定來做處理薪水最直接嘛對 薪水最直接待遇最明顯嘛為什麼人家連排行榜出來我是一個大學出來的畢業生我看一看我會選擇泛公股嗎我會選擇國營的金融機構嗎榜上無名啊那我們往下看"},{"start":555.393,"end":572.449,"text":"為什麼會這樣子 我們立法院也是始終的之一第八屆第四會期 那時候立法委員包括李桂民 翁崇勳 費鴻泰提議要求限制我們這些財政部所屬的國營事業金融機構的績效獎金最多只能到4.4"},{"start":574.298,"end":593.232,"text":"是不是目前的限制沒錯這是誰的限制立法院立法院而且很清楚是第八屆國民黨幾位委員所提的我個人認為要調整要思考一下你限制這些就限制了我們飯工股跟我們的國營金融機構去跟民營的來競爭人才你同不同意"},{"start":594.873,"end":597.858,"text":"是的我就跟委員報告為了這個有關我們的國營金融事業能夠更有一個更強的競爭力能夠"},{"start":606.278,"end":627.692,"text":"攬財 留財能夠做得更好我們已經有了五個方案謝謝委員對我們國營金融事業的一個關心那五個方案也可以跟委員報告你要報告之前我先問一下我們來看看現有的方案譬如說一個很簡單的伙食費三千元你看看目前我們金控的資產台銀金是排名第一"},{"start":628.773,"end":645.619,"text":"結果後面的趙鋒鑫 第一金 何庫鑫 華南鑫他的薪資在14名之內台銀金控是沒有欸他們目前台土輸啊對不起喔 這樣講有點不好聽喔台灣金控 土銀跟輸銀簡稱台土輸這國營事業輸添添嘛是不是這樣子好 同時我們再往下看還有什麼生育補助是不是也是一樣相較之下台土輸也是輸添添再往下看下一個"},{"start":658.858,"end":684.01,"text":"我們的就是說不管是伙食費還是生育補助都是不如人家那請問你說有哪五大方案很快的簡單講一下第一個就是生育補助費的我們五大方案已經抱怨第一個就是生育補助費每一胎十萬塊然後不管是他自己或者是他的配偶十萬塊跟第一金差不多每一胎十萬好不錯跟第一金變沒有了那第二項就是伙食費您剛才列出來我們希望以外加伙食費的話是每個月三千塊"},{"start":684.83,"end":710.429,"text":"第三個是經營績效獎金從4.4個月我們希望恢復到4.6個月這個部分那第二個對於激勵員工的部分我們認為應該在決算稅前營運裡面要提撥1%到8%按照員工的一些績效他的一個KPI達成等等給予做一些激勵的效果另外一個就是員工福利信託也就是剛剛委員提到就是讓他的退休生活更優化所以我們認為可以"},{"start":711.67,"end":733.389,"text":"他每個月從薪水出一千銀行相對出一千然後讓他做信託那未來退休可以有一個好的收穫既然你對台土書對我們國營金融事業都這麼好TESA也可以對我們一般國民好吧TESA也是退休儲蓄的一種啊回去研究一下好很好這些我都樂見與財政部跟國庫總統來推動目前推動上有沒有障礙"},{"start":734.43,"end":763.067,"text":"有沒有立法院在反對目前來說是我們報行政院由仁總在邀請相關機關延伤當中仁總的態度是支持還反對仁總第一個先就生育補助所我倒帶回去問仁總好您可以再跟仁總我幫忙你問仁總請他支持可以嗎謝謝委員最後主席站起來了我三個結論請第一請統計國民使用現行投資稅制優惠中各項目之比例使用率及金額的區間分布之數據並分期成效一個月內提出公民報告可以嗎"},{"start":767.85,"end":774.114,"text":"請評估新增額外的稅務優惠推動TISA以充足國民退休的第三層保障的可行應"},{"start":794.808,"end":807.019,"text":"行政院能不能在一個月內完成我們不敢把握但是一個月內我們一定提書面報告我反過來 你希望我多久幫你推動成那我當然希望委員越快越好啊我都給你兩個月 要不然給我兩個月你希望委員 立法委員兩個月幫你推動成功好不好好謝謝謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時25分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請財政部莊部長、國庫署陳署長以及賦稅署宋署長。"],["主席：好，財政部長、陳署長，還有宋署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好，兩位署長好。部長，我們賴總統要推亞洲資產管理中心，你支不支持？"],["莊部長翠雲：支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：支持，好。這當中的主責是金管會。金管會希望亞太資產管理中心當中，優先要採公私協力推動TISA制度，你知道吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：知道。那麼它也要由基富通和集保公司來協助，請問要推動TISA跟亞洲資產管理中心有相關，您願意在權責範圍內來幫忙推動TISA，增加國民的退休保障嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個是國家重要政策，當然財政部跟金管會都會一起努力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：之後，財政部可以提供的優惠，我也私下先請教過宋署長，現行的所得稅法對於投資稅制優惠，這跟TISA息息相關，因為TISA就是一種投資，除了所得稅法當中，8萬元個人直接買股票或存款的利息可以抵減之外，在特別扣除額的部分，如果信託基金的利息或股利是有27萬元，署長跟我說這些是足夠提供民眾投資的誘因優惠，請問你所知道國人使用這27萬或這8萬用得多不多、普不普遍？"],["莊部長翠雲：應該不少。"],["鍾委員佳濱：您說現行的報稅系統很便民就直接帶入，所以民眾不曉得有投資抵稅優惠，是這樣嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，您剛剛講的這些相關租稅優惠，有的時候民眾不見得都知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他有享受但不知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，但對於TISA，我們也說會跟金管會合作，對於現行有關的租稅優惠，我們會陳列出來，而且協助去做說明，讓民眾……"],["鍾委員佳濱：印小冊子協助說明。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我們甚至可以有同仁去協助說明，我們現有的租稅優惠有這麼多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看看TISA，臺灣的退休金指數排名不如越南和中國，很可怕，臺灣倒數第10名，不如新加入評等的越南，為什麼？從公務人員退撫基金管理局來看，第一層，強制性社會安全制度，像勞保、國民年金保險；第二層，強制性員工退休制度，由雇主提撥；第三層，自願性商業保險儲蓄制度，請問TISA是不是第三層，就是你去購買投資對你未來的退休產生有儲蓄保障，是不是這樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：應該除此之外還有其他的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，我說TISA是屬於第三層。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是這樣嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：它可以去儲蓄、投資的概念。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這3大指標：充足性、永續性跟完整性當中，占權重最高的充足性，臺灣只得到46分，表示臺灣在第三層有很大的成長空間，你是不是認為TISA可以有助於國民退休的第三層保障？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分對於規劃運用是有幫助的，對於民眾未來退休生活的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：國人對於退休儲備不足感到憂慮，壓力來源的生活成本增加，退休儲蓄不足占最高，擔心生活成本不斷提高的有七成、擔心退休儲備不足的有六成、把退休儲蓄視為首要的財務目標占九成，還不是財富自由，民眾就必須透過長期投資跟及早退規劃退休，剛剛你也同意TISA跟這個目前息息相關，可以幫助民眾來達成首要財務目標，可是目前金管會檢視，沒有額外新增個人投資扣除額在TISA的部分，財政部有沒有考慮來新增投資稅制優惠來幫助TISA推動？我再講一次，現在TISA這麼重要，能夠有助於國人解決他的財務目標，財政部願不願意新增個人的投資扣除額來協助TISA的推動？"],["莊部長翠雲：剛剛委員也羅列了很多現有的一些租稅優惠，我們也對照過，日本也好，還有其他國家的租稅優惠，其實我們更優於他們，所以這個部分，事實上目前來說，我們應該是讓民眾知道現在已經有這麼多優惠，而民眾不清楚的部分，我們可以加強來說明。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，因為你這套說詞我聽過宋署長講過，但我不認同。我這樣講好了，我們去住那些高級飯店，他們有健身中心，裡面有蒸氣室、游泳池、重量訓練，結果我們問說，旅客為什麼不去使用健身中心，旅客很想要什麼？超慢跑，要跑步機，但你說這些都可以涵蓋在內，你只要來健身中心什麼都有，可是實況上就是我們國人使用這些租稅優惠的意願跟強度不高，我先問你，如果有人說因為現在超慢跑很流行，飯店健身中心增加一個跑步機專區，你會反對嗎？會增加成本嗎？本來你說健身中心什麼都有，就像你說的，不管是股息、利息，健身中心的這些項目通通都可以來享受，可是旅客使用率不高，他得到的好處也不多啊！但是你說現在旅客喜歡超慢跑，我增設一個慢跑機專區，可以嗎？我不知道你有沒有理解到這個比喻？"],["莊部長翠雲：有關這個租稅的部分，涉及的層面比較廣，我覺得跟飯店裡面去增設一個跑步機，應該是不太一樣，也不能……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我用比喻，你用比喻回答。我就知道你會這樣回答。","請你們限期內把目前國民使用現行投資稅制優惠中各個項目的比例、使用率、金額的區間分布告訴我，譬如說，國人有多少人在使用27萬；第二，從不到1萬的，到使用滿27萬的，分布是多少；第三，他使用哪些項目，是股利還是利息，把這些調查出來，我們就知道是不是像財政部說的：我什麼都有，我有27萬讓你用，我不需要再設一個專區，專門來針對TISA來提供租稅優惠，請你調查出來，我們再來「輸贏」。"],["莊部長翠雲：好的，我們可以把資料統計。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看現在日本的NISA對照於臺灣的TISA，日本的舊制每年投資額度上限從40萬、120萬提高到120萬、240萬；投資總額上限從800萬、600萬提高到1,800萬，而臺灣完全沒有新增額外的稅務優惠，然而，日本從舊制到新制，把投資的商品從共同基金都弄出來了，我們還是特定基金，所以你看日本的結果怎麼樣？日本一炮而紅，所以從NISA一開始創新高，新開戶數是上年同期的3.2倍，我們如果能夠新增額外的稅務優惠來推動TISA就可以充足國民退休的第三層保障，而且國家也沒有增加額外支出，這是我的結論，你回去研究一下，把剛剛的3點要求統計出來，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒問題，謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：看一下2024年金控員工的平均年薪排行榜，我注意到這14家大型金控，只有第3名的兆豐金、第5名的第一金、第8名的合庫金、第9名的華南金，泛公股只有這4家入榜，是不是這樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，照您這個年增率。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這些都是金飯碗，民間的金控員工薪資是比較高，這裡面沒有國營的，泛公股的有4家，請問怎麼樣來讓泛公股或者國營金融機構可以跟民營來徵才？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想泛公股的部分，因為算是一個泛民營化，可以用公司治理，以及自己按照自己的規定來做處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：薪水最直接嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，薪水最直接。"],["鍾委員佳濱：待遇最明顯嘛！為什麼人家列排行榜出來？我是一個大學出來的畢業生，我看一看，我會選擇泛公股嗎？我會選擇國營的金融機構嗎？榜上無名。","為什麼會這樣子？立法院也是始作俑者之一，第8屆第4會期那時候立法委員包括李貴敏、翁重鈞、費鴻泰提議要求，限制財政部所屬的國營事業金融機構的績效獎金，最多只能到4.4個月薪，是不是目前的限制？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這誰的限制？"],["莊部長翠雲：立法院當時的決議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：立法院，而且很清楚是第8屆國民黨幾位委員所提的，我個人認為要調整、要思考一下，你限制這些就限制了泛公股跟我們的國營金融機構去跟民營的來競爭人才，你同不同意？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，跟委員報告，為了有關國營金融事業能夠更有一個更強的競爭力，能夠攬才、留才，能夠做得更好……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們有哪些激勵措施？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們已經有了5個方案，謝謝委員對我們國營金融事業的一個關心……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你5個方案給我，我們來看一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：5個方案也可以跟委員報告……"],["鍾委員佳濱：報告之前我先問一下，我們來看看現有方案，譬如說，很簡單的伙食費3,000元，目前我們金控的資產，臺灣金是排名第1，結果後面的兆豐金、第一金、合庫金、華南金的薪資在14名之內，臺銀金控是沒有在內，目前臺灣金控、土銀、輸銀，簡稱「臺土輸」，國營事業「輸慘慘」，是不是這樣子？生育補助是不是也是一樣？相較之下，「臺土輸」也是「輸慘慘」，再往下看，不管是伙食費還是生育補助，都是不如人家，請問你說有哪五大方案？很快的簡單講一下，我要下結論了。"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個就是生育補助費的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：要提高嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們的五大方案已經報院了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要增加？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個就是生育補助費每一胎10萬塊，然後不管是他自己或是他的配偶每一胎10萬……"],["鍾委員佳濱：10萬塊跟第一金差不多。"],["莊部長翠雲：每一胎10萬。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，不錯，跟第一金……"],["莊部長翠雲：第二項就是伙食費，您剛剛有列出來，我們希望以外加伙食費的方式，每個月3,000塊；第三個就是經營績效獎金，從4.4個月，我們希望恢復到4.6個月。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。"],["莊部長翠雲：第二個，對於激勵員工的部分，我們認為應該在決算稅前盈餘裡面要提撥1%到8%，按照員工的績效、他的KPI達成率等等給予激勵的效果；另外一個就是員工福利信託，也就是剛剛委員提的，就是讓他的退休生活更優化，所以我們認為可以從他每個月薪水裡出1,000，銀行相對出1,000，然後讓他做信託，未來退休就可以有一個好的收入。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這一部分停一下，既然你對「臺土輸」、對我們國營金融事業都這麼好，TISA也應該可以對我們一般國民好吧？TISA也是退休儲蓄的一種，回去研究一下。很好，這些我都樂見財政部跟國庫署共同來推動，目前推動上有沒有障礙？有沒有立法院的反對？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前來說是我們報行政院，由人總再邀請相關機關研商當中……"],["鍾委員佳濱：人總的態度是支持還是反對？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個是先就生育補助……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我待會會去問人總。"],["莊部長翠雲：已經開過會了，您可以再跟人總……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我幫你問人總，請它支持可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後，主席站起來了，我有三個結論：第一，請統計國民使用現行投資稅制優惠中各項目之比例、使用率及金額的區間分布之數據並分析成效，於一個月內提出書面報告可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們是不是兩個月，好不好？"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，可以。"],["莊部長翠雲：請評估新增額外的稅務優惠，推動TISA，以充足國民退休第三層保障的可行性。不要一個月，兩個月提出一個書面報告？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，兩個月。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第三，你剛剛已經講了嘛，已經研議提升國營金融機構員工待遇得與泛公股，甚至是民營銀行的徵才方案，你剛剛說有這五項方案對不對？是不是在一個月內能夠完成行政院的推動，還是要多久？"],["莊部長翠雲：行政院能不能在一個月內完成，我們不敢把握，但是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你希望多久？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們一定提書面報告。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我反過來，你希望我多久幫你推動完成？"],["莊部長翠雲：我當然希望委員越快越好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你要給我時間啊！我都給你兩個月，那你要不要給我兩個月？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你希望立法委員兩個月幫你推動成功，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝佳濱委員，我想這個對公股銀行其實是個很大鼓勵，公股銀行都招募不到員工了，這是很大的一個困境，我覺得不是立法院要加油，行政院也要加油啊！","接著我們請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159439","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159439","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb02a98c26e12e864044aa23c349ee8e693525a0be0b44ec4a396fa539d5614b54a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王義川","委員發言時間":"10:23:47 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中華民國公務員可不可以主張武統武力統一台灣不可以這一點肯定不可以那中華民國公務員可不可以主張統一台灣 中國統一台灣那絕對不可以 那違反了我們最上位的一個原則中華民國公務員不可以主張中國統一台灣"},{"start":89.858,"end":112.647,"text":"不可以那中華民國公務員可不可以有中華人民共和國的身份證不可以那可不可以有中華人民共和國的居住證那都不可以那可不可以有中華人民共和國的台胞證台胞證不可以台胞證不可以好我怕你說錯了 你靠我聽也沒關係"},{"start":114.98,"end":124.947,"text":"因為你這講的都...你人事長你也說不出話來中華民國公務員可不可以每個禮拜六禮拜天都去中國?應該是沒有這個限制因為你看金門媽祖的年紀,他有時都會過去他如果請假,他沒有說他要出國"},{"start":140.1,"end":162.806,"text":"五六日一 禮拜五禮拜一都請假請試假 早去中國 這樣可以嗎要先請啊 如果去台六就要先請啊那你看你的這張啦 有些還要核准啦請假的試用所以中華民國公務人員禮拜六禮拜天可不可以去中國不用請假"},{"start":167.475,"end":177.717,"text":"應該去大陸市都要申請啦照你講是這樣,如果你的擔任的職務是比較敏感的我沒有講職務,我就講公務人員照移民署的規定是都要的啦中港澳都要喔?香港澳門都可以,都要喔?所以,你如果講金融的,金融管政府的人員"},{"start":198.567,"end":201.369,"text":"所以拜託你問一下移民署管理的機制是什麼"},{"start":219.929,"end":234.757,"text":"因為7月規定要對不對 有人遭遇對不對 沒有申請嘛他就給交給 台胞證給 他就捨棄了嘛捨棄了 我們的中華民國政府都不知道我們怕他出國而已嘛 離境嘛"},{"start":239.981,"end":249.547,"text":"他電子通關他就出去了嘛他公務員他職等不高,他也不用申請啊他也不用跟政府說啊,還是怎麼樣啊這關齁,我們了解的,是有問題的事情他要地方政府,他一定要地方政府授權他也同意,他就可以上去啊他都沒說啦,都沒說"},{"start":266.926,"end":282.298,"text":"都沒有說是有這個規定啦,有這個規定不行啦那你還要怎樣?一定有相關的法則啊那警察呢?都行啦,警察原來是檢測的問題啊所以如果檢舉他要上班?查證署是他所屬的副機關,他就要請陳希簽辦上來啊好,就他所屬的副機關簽辦上來,那最重要的怎樣?"},{"start":298.223,"end":311.53,"text":"那最重要的就不知道他是去做什麼事情沒有啦 他就去這套啦 他就去這套啦他就很愛拜六禮拜去夾夢 這套甘不可以這種 那有兩種經營啦 這種是偶爾為之 啊 這種喔 每禮拜出去了這兩種法則當然就不一樣了那他沒有就只能甘不可以"},{"start":321.576,"end":332.239,"text":"所以這種法者的情況,就是他的情境上事實上不一樣這條我看你還要跟公務人員宣導一下因為我問你,你看起來也是這樣,是又不是,旁邊又站三個,改成可以又不行我問的地方很清楚,我沒有什麼陷阱給你挑"},{"start":342.602,"end":363.67,"text":"好不好 中華民國公務員跑去中國 跑去香港 跑去澳門一般公務員喔 別說值等喔 他可不可以不讓中華民國政府知道他跑去哪裡意思就是 他都沒行情啦 他都沒行情那如果他沒申請 被人家檢舉 他會發生什麼事情"},{"start":368.049,"end":397.19,"text":"要出去喔 要出去逮捕 要不然申請的 一定要有懲處行政機關本來就要懲處啊 去日本的 覺得跟中華民國政府說你 要有出境啊 你也要跟你服務的機關申請啊大概一星期啦學校啊公務員的我們就要請假 請假也是有 就是看你要去哪裡啊六日啦 六日啦六日去日本喔 去小琉球這樣喔"},{"start":400.339,"end":418.029,"text":"好啦好啦,那些還油的我了解一下,還有沒有人報告啦這沒油啦,這大家都會回頭的那第二個,請問一下如果有公務員被傷掉,現有的服務機關可不可以拒絕?"},{"start":420.737,"end":435.643,"text":"目前是雙方要去協商現在我們同時也跟前續部在討論就是當事人申請你服務機關你目前的服務機關不能禁止目前我們有跟前續部在討論這個議題大概前續部是反對的沒有啦 他們沒有反對"},{"start":440.643,"end":448.447,"text":"因為我以前在地方做局處長的時候,我也回到這種的,我的同事要去用吊罩,他要用吊罩代表他已經去百合都扣掉了,扣掉之後,那個單位就寫一張牌說要把他吊罩了"},{"start":460.404,"end":471.554,"text":"那時候我可以說要給他照不該給他照,這個權力很大機關修長有這個權沒有不對,但是一種是給他照,一種不該給他照另外一種是做辦法的,有的可以做辦法後期,對方不可能等於辦法不是要這種的,陷我們原機關首長不義你知道嗎因為我如果不給他照,機關就照來了"},{"start":484.582,"end":494.585,"text":"我阿腳中人家就要照,你就不讓他照我阿媽他就很優秀,我就不想要他照阿媽的啦,人家在咳嗽,你就不讓他照一個議員來講,兩個議員來講,這制度上變成我有財洋權那你就會陷這個首長於不義啊機關首長的佑能權,你不可以說因為喔,政委優秀的你想要留下來啊,你不希望他照啊"},{"start":509.096,"end":527.587,"text":"其實我覺得這個我們最近有跟前區部還有找相關的人事主管一起在討論接下來工程人員的專業家級就是那個表期的這些適用這個表期的人員最近有沒有在檢討"},{"start":533.865,"end":551.649,"text":"有政治專業加級,還有酒流獎金,還有一個工程獎金,這三個都有提起嗎?沒有,我沒有提起,我講適用的人員適用的人員也有改變啦,有報告交通方面的交通什麼公共行政交通技術有沒有納入?交通技術,有了吧?"},{"start":561.704,"end":582.428,"text":"有喔?這個有交流來,有交流來,因為最近喔,定年到近,最近...因為我們地方很多交通的這個專業人員,他們是交通技術的,那其實...對,他們其實跟那個土木啊,其實做的事情是一樣的,那他們沒有這一項可以用到表期,就這個專業佳績,這一塊建議你們把它納進去啦"},{"start":587.713,"end":610.473,"text":"工程機關 它不是工程機關 它是一般的機關報告委員 我們那個工程機關的要件已經把交通技術執行納進來那我們調查那個地方政府的交通機關 目前都有符合這個要件最後一個 我們公務員考試考上以後 大家都想要到中央部會"},{"start":611.468,"end":634.993,"text":"所以就會發生一種很詭異的事情就是他剛考上就到交通部了然後呢 他派去地方視察的時候啊來都長官嘛齁然後去到市政府 去到公所啊他被長官 你知道嗎結果他給他當公務員 做兩年啊這段學科在市政府 管政府的 公所的都被他直升 都被他學長結果他要指導這位學長你覺得這個制度對不對"},{"start":639.713,"end":664.333,"text":"這個問題我委員報告 剛才我們有跟專屬部在討論地方有些職等要去做調整 有人不在進行目前應該有機會在六月底以前會在某些區塊會有一些明顯的一個調整不然的時候會發生一些很詭異的事情 我知道 我知道 看考上的變長官"},{"start":665.194,"end":679.907,"text":"是然後這個坐在下面的很吱聲但是因為他是中央來的所以呢就是這很奇怪這檢討一下好不好好謝謝好謝謝王一川委員那接下來"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":487,"blocks":[["王委員義川：（10時23分）主席，請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["王委員義川：人事長好。請教幾個問題，中華民國公務員有反共的責任跟義務嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在是比較沒有在用「反共」，只是我們要到公部門服務的時候都會簽一些切結書，不能有雙重國籍……"],["王委員義川：你開始做公務人員的時候，政府有叫你要反共嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：以前是用喊的。"],["王委員義川：這沒有規定就對了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：反共已經五、六十年了。"],["王委員義川：所以中華民國的公務人員不一定要反共？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們現在就是比較務實的。"],["王委員義川：第二、中華民國公務員可不可以主張武統？武力統一臺灣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不行。"],["王委員義川：這條確定不行？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：確定不行。"],["王委員義川：中華民國公務員可不可以主張中國統一臺灣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：絕對不行，那違反了我們最上位的原則。"],["王委員義川：中華民國公務員不可以主張中國統一臺灣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不行。"],["王委員義川：好。中華民國公務員可不可以有中華人民共和國的身分證？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不行，那都有規定。"],["王委員義川：可不可以有中華人民共和國的居住證？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那都不行。"],["王委員義川：可不可以有中華人民共和國的臺胞證？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：臺胞證可以。"],["王委員義川：我怕你說錯，你好好聽、慢慢回，沒關係，因為你是人事長，不要說錯。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：別挖坑給我跳。"],["王委員義川：好。中華民國公務員可不可以每個禮拜六、禮拜天都去中國？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前應該沒有這個限制。"],["王委員義川：可以？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為你看金門、馬祖離那邊很近，他們有時候都會過去。"],["王委員義川：他如果請假、請事假，卻沒說要出國，五、六、日、一，即禮拜五、禮拜一都請假、請事假跑去中國，這樣可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：要申請，有去大陸就要申請，也要看職等，有些還要核准、敘明請假的事由。"],["王委員義川：所以中華民國的公務人員禮拜六、禮拜天可不可以不用請假就去中國？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：去大陸應該都要申請，照理說是這樣。如果擔任的是比較敏感的職務……"],["王委員義川：我沒說職務，我就說公務人員。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一般照移民署的規定都要。"],["王委員義川：中、港、澳都要？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在都要。"],["王委員義川：香港、澳門都要？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前這三個地方都併在一起。"],["王委員義川：如果金門縣政府的人員禮拜六跑去廈門，禮拜天晚上就回來，要不要跟中華民國政府說？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一定要，移民署有相關規定，但是有沒有照這樣做，說真的，不知道。"],["王委員義川：好，所以拜託你問一下移民署管理的機制是什麼？既然規定要，有人跑去卻沒申請，他護照、臺胞證拿著就跑去了，而中華民國政府都不知道，我們只知道他出國而已嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：知道他離境。"],["王委員義川：譬如他從桃園電子通關就出去了，他是公務員，但職等不高，所以不用申請，也不用跟政府講或是怎樣。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一般據我們了解，有分兩種職等，9職等以下者，在地方政府一定要地方政府授權，它如果同意，他就可以去，中央這部分……"],["王委員義川：不，是他都沒有說。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：都沒有說，但是有規定不行。"],["王委員義川：抓到會怎樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一定有相關的罰則。"],["王委員義川：警察呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：都一樣，警察應該是更嚴肅的問題。"],["王委員義川：所以如果有檢舉，誰要辦？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：查證屬實，所屬的服務機關就要循程序簽辦上來。"],["王委員義川：由他所屬的服務機關簽辦上來，最重會怎樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不知道他去做什麼事情、出去多久。"],["王委員義川：他就去玩，他很愛星期六、星期日去廈門玩，不行嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那有兩種情形，一種是偶一為之，有一種是每星期出去的，這兩種罰則當然就不一樣。"],["王委員義川：他老婆就在那邊，不行嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，所以這種情況的罰則在情境上事實上不一樣，要針對情況。"],["王委員義川：我看這一條你再跟公務人員宣導一下，因為我問你，看起來你有時認為是，有時又不是，旁邊還站3個人，好像可以又不可以。我問的題目很清楚，又沒有設什麼陷阱給你跳，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["王委員義川：中華民國公務員跑去中國、香港、澳門，一般公務員不要說職等，他可不可以不讓中華民國政府知道他跑去哪裡？意思就是他都沒有申請。如果他沒申請被人家檢舉，會發生什麼事情？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：如果出去，有去大陸沒有申請的，一定要有懲處，行政機關本來就要懲處。"],["王委員義川：如果去日本，要不要跟中華民國政府說？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：你有出境，也要跟你服務的機關申請。"],["王委員義川：禮拜六、禮拜天。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一樣啊！"],["王委員義川：公務員耶？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們要請假，請假的事由就是看你要去哪一國。"],["王委員義川：六、日啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：六、日去日本、小琉球……好啦，那個比較細節的部分，我了解一下再跟委員報告啦。"],["王委員義川：這不是比較細節的，而是大家都會遇到的。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["王委員義川：第二個，請問一下如果有公務員被商調，現有的服務機關可不可以拒絕？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前是雙方要去協商，現在我們同時也跟銓敘部在討論，也就是當事人申請，你目前的服務機關不能禁止，目前我們有跟銓敘部在討論這個議題啦！"],["王委員義川：大概……銓敘部是反對嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，它沒有反對。"],["王委員義川：因為我以前在地方在做局處長的時候，我也遇到這種情形，我的同事要被調走，他要被調走代表他考上別的地方，考上之後，那個單位就寫一封信來說要把他調走，那個時候我可以決定要讓他走或不讓他走，這個權力很大耶！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：機關首長有這個權力沒錯，但是一種是讓他走，一種是不讓他走，另外一種是做半套的，就是跟他說你可以走，但要半年之後，對方不可能等他半年。"],["王委員義川：不是啊！這種就是陷我們原機關首長於不義，你知道嗎？因為我如果不讓他走，議員就跑來罵局長說：「人家就要走，你為什麼不讓他走？」我說：「他就很優秀，我就不想讓他走」，「不要啦，人家就考上了，你還不讓他走？」一個議員來說、兩個議員來說，制度上變成我有裁量權，就陷這個首長於不義。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那是機關首長的用人權，你不能說……因為你想要留下優秀人才、不希望他走，其實這部分我們最近有跟銓敘部還有找相關的人事主管一起在討論，我們有在討論啦！"],["王委員義川：好啦，OK！接下來有關工程人員的專業加給，就是那個表7，這些適用表7的人員，最近有沒有在檢討？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有，去年7月1日就開始有增支專業加給，還有久留獎金，還有一個工程獎金，這三個都有調整。"],["王委員義川：我不是說調整的部分，我是說適用的人員。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：適用的人員也有改變，有再包括交通方面的……"],["王委員義川：交通什麼部分？請講清楚，交通技術有沒有納入？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有吧！這個有加入。"],["王委員義川：有喔？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：因為去年和最近……"],["王委員義川：因為我們地方很多交通的專業人員，他們是交通技術的……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對、對，本來是沒有，現在有進來。"],["王委員義川：其實他們跟土木做的事情是一樣的，他們沒有這一項可以用到表7的專業加給，這一塊建議你們把他納進去啦！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有啦，工程機關……"],["王委員義川：他不是工程機關，他就是一般的機關。"],["林處長錦慧：報告委員，我們工程機關的要件已經把交通技術職系納進來，我們調查地方政府的交通機關，目前都有符合這個要件。"],["王委員義川：好，這樣就對了。好，最後一個，我們公務人員考試考上以後，大家都想要到中央部會，所以就會發生一種很詭異的事情，就是他剛考上就到交通部了，然後他派去地方視察的時候，來的都是長官，去到市政府、去到公所，他卻變成長官，你知道嗎？他擔任公務人員只有兩年，但坐在下面的這些市政府、縣政府的、公所的都比他資深，都是他的學長，結果卻是他在指導這些學長，你覺得這個制度對嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個問題，我跟委員報告，去年我們有跟銓敘部在討論，地方有些職等也要做調整，有啦，有在進行，目前應該有機會在6月底以前會在某些區塊有一些明顯的調整，我們有在蒐集資料。"],["王委員義川：好，不然有時候會發生一些很詭異的事情。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我知道、我知道。"],["王委員義川：剛考上的變長官，坐在下面的很資深，但是因為他是中央來的，所以就很奇怪，請檢討一下，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["王委員義川：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王義川委員。","接下來我們請最美麗的翁曉玲委員質詢。如果沒有偶爾稱讚你們，氣氛都會很差。","翁曉玲委員質詢完以後，我們先休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}},{"id":"159438","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159438","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0eddc827086d60c3656c3f89dc79e7a25525a0be0b44ec4a3fbd5a51b102a7b385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:15:57 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所以部長你有聽聞這樣子的方案嗎這一個部分請教基本上都不是我們台電裡面討論的方向好 所以剛剛本席所說的媒體暴露是沒有這回事嗎"},{"start":123.752,"end":149.953,"text":"媒體有很多他們會去所以你不知道這個訊息我不知道這個訊息好一個不知道訊息所以本席要請教經濟部的立場在目前台灣的面向你認為你仍舊在經濟部的立場還是以漲價為主嗎經濟部的立場就是綜合考量這個目前的經濟的動盪以及國人的需求"},{"start":152.455,"end":168.479,"text":"部長你這樣說就對了因為你是經濟部你一定會綜合考量所以在你綜合考量立即要到下個月四月份那你認為在目前綜合考量的情況之下你現在還會認為漲價是好的方案嗎如果是台電今天是民營企業的話"},{"start":175.558,"end":199.855,"text":"它勢必要漲價但是台電現在是國營的企業它必須要肩負國家照顧國人的這樣的一個任務所以這個任務我們非常的要重視所以剛才我想委員你所指教的部分也就是我們過去數年動場的最重要的一個部分"},{"start":200.635,"end":225.297,"text":"那我們現在這樣就是說我們要請這個國家來補助台電然後因為過去動漲造成他的這個負債那這個負債已經舉債到92%了我們希望是這樣就是說如果能夠撥補給我們讓我們的這個舉債的空間有的話那對我們來講我想我們會做其他更好的努力啦"},{"start":226.078,"end":240.916,"text":"那我們現在就是有一點這個因為負債過大那剛才也有人講說你不要再增加舉債了啦舉債的話你這個利息更多等等所以我要跟委員報告您剛才所關心的部分也是我們關心的部分"},{"start":242.025,"end":266.67,"text":"但是我們沒有辦法在這個價格調整之前做出一個肯定的決定所以我們會把這些訊息包括委員所關心的這個內容都提供給電價審議委員會由他們斟酌讓他們去討論我相信在那些專家學者之間他們會討論出一個比較有智慧的這個決定好"},{"start":268.65,"end":273.832,"text":"剛剛部長我運用了一分多鐘的時間讓你說明我真的希望聽到政府的立場第一個你會提供民眾的聲音因為現在如果你一漲價通膨是非常的恐怖因為目前我們看到如果再漲尤其像媒體所披露的這個方案CPI可能會上升到2%甚至以上"},{"start":296.38,"end":299.144,"text":"這樣的一個情況市民大家有一個心聲長了就回不了頭尤其在現階段你身為經濟部部長你必須綜合台灣目前整個民生以及產業的樣態"},{"start":311.661,"end":334.975,"text":"那麼這點是非常重要 也請你 將你剛剛善意的回應告訴店家委員會 務必在現階段如果連市民小店家 民生用店都如此的要高漲到更高的水準我想這是民眾沒有辦法接受的我們目的 政府要好好的讓民眾好生活 因為"},{"start":335.675,"end":360.107,"text":"在工業這個電價的部分呢最近這幾年也已經漲了數次在目前我們統計平均的單價已經高達4.29元所以本市還是要奉勸在先階段你要怎麼樣讓民生小店家能夠先安內先不要漲才不會導致通盆你願意這樣子的方向來建議給電價委員會嗎"},{"start":363.889,"end":382.63,"text":"謝謝委員的叮嚀我們一定會把你這些內容來向這個電價審議委員會報告不過我在這個地方向你說明一下我們基本上的原則對工業電價來講就是不能夠高於我們的競爭對手國"},{"start":385.015,"end":401.426,"text":"對所以你總是有一個防堵這個目的就是要真正照顧我們的產業嘛但是另外一項也就是我一直強調的本席民生跟小店家現在苦不堪言絕對不適合黨在這個階段我一定會提供給這個審議委員會"},{"start":405.649,"end":412.275,"text":"我相信你有這個能力因為我不希望你成為一個只有會漲價人家號稱你是漲價部長我不希望這個名稱因為卓榮泰卓榮泰說他是AI內閣我也不希望你是漲價部長卓榮泰不是AI內閣而成為漲價內閣"},{"start":425.467,"end":444.767,"text":"您剛才回答是你是經濟部長嗎我不是漲價部長你不是漲價部長所以你務必也不是水電部長對 也不是水電部長好 有gas所以我希望我們好好地來照顧民生這是一個非常重要的一個均衡的樣態接下來本席要請教"},{"start":447.334,"end":457.983,"text":"麥綠能那麼菲律賓的這個案子本席也聽到您說您會去實際上的一個這個考察什麼時候會去考察我們大概在這個"},{"start":462.835,"end":480.429,"text":"確定了以後會分批啦就是實際上面我個人什麼時候可以去可能就是我如果能夠請假出國的話那麼我就會去你非常想立即去是不是不是你一定有一個評估不要笑這個對台灣來講你一直漲價你解決不了台電的困境你的能源政策你要怎麼樣去調整這非常的重要"},{"start":488.075,"end":499.162,"text":"是 我們的專業的部分包括我們的能源局包括我們的公研院包括我們相關的這些專家他們會先走大約什麼時候應該是月底之前吧月底之前會出發那本席要請教因為本席在前半年一直跟你討論你也有回應但是你告訴我們的都是具可行性那具可行性也就是還在空想"},{"start":515.191,"end":522.874,"text":"還沒有實際行動但是我們剛剛通道你是具可行性但是你剛剛有說了你月底以前專家學者會出發是不是月底以前這是你現在才告訴我們的因為在你書面答詢沒有這些資料所以我們要實際去討論接下來本席請問那到底你的工程費用"},{"start":539.159,"end":549.123,"text":"是多少 到底你要採用的運電的方式你要用什麼樣的方式你到底是原先說的海底電纜線還是這個電池的電池船的一個運輸那麼時程大概是什麼時候請說明報告委員 這個我們是不是可以另外給你報告"},{"start":558.266,"end":568.534,"text":"好 你給我報告 你有一個方案 但是我還是要問你因為這個對我們國家來講是很重要的一個很重大的一個工程所以本下要請教 那麼是不是台飛台飛也採用了什麼樣的方式來做合作我想這一點是非常的關鍵 請說明有沒有合作這個部分我們不方便在這裡不方便講沒關係 有沒有合作好 有沒有合作"},{"start":585.503,"end":598.397,"text":"沒有合作好那我們也是希望也就是認真在推動是不是我們當然是積極的在推動好是一個積極在推動所以我們也希望"},{"start":599.522,"end":621.123,"text":"在整個能源的配比方式要怎麼做而不是就像本席剛才所說的這幾年民生也漲了幾次我不希望你成為一個漲價的部長那你剛才也說了你不是漲價部長最後一個議題本席要跟你討論的也就是我們這個大阪的這個"},{"start":624.594,"end":630.239,"text":"市博那當時我們在2022年的時候我回想我們一直在討論這20億我們要怎麼花那我們有一個條件因為以往在上海市博是沒有我們政府出資是台商自己募款那現在我們當然支持台灣的產業能夠在世界來展露"},{"start":647.515,"end":654.459,"text":"所以因此最後我們協商的結果也就是20億一毛不刪希望大家努力去做對不對"},{"start":656.158,"end":673.969,"text":"是不是報告委員 這個是我們努力跟日本友好的關係我們本來我們在這個展覽 世博的展我們不是會員所以我們是根本就不會受到邀請去參與這個有主辦過不是啦 這個就是本席要跟你討論的當時你承諾的是會多方的讓台灣來出現"},{"start":681.073,"end":708.947,"text":"甚至持續的透過管道判以這個希望以台灣管的面向來展出那現在我們是以teamwork的方式但是最近好像聽聞有媒體暴露也就是披露說日方認為台灣經濟部的官方網站在本月的6日發布的聲明內容是希望能夠更明確"},{"start":711.499,"end":718.525,"text":"去說明不是以政府的立場不是以台灣兩個字的名義來參展有沒有這回事請問有沒有這回事我們不是這個國際展覽局BIE的成員所以沒有辦法直接參展本席要請教日方有沒有最近6號有沒有這回事"},{"start":733.637,"end":760.571,"text":"你們經濟部有沒有收到有沒有收到請你告訴我們我們接受日本的邀請這個已經是非常大人家非常給我們很大的所以我們二十億全力支持所以本席請教其中有變化的時候是不是陳儒媒體所說經濟部有沒有接到這樣子的訊息這樣子的這個不管是文也好或者是我們的電子網有沒有"},{"start":764.073,"end":779.413,"text":"報告委員對於報載的事情你認為那個信度高嗎你不用問我認不認因為你是主席棄者你可以給社會大眾說到底有還是沒有我個人是沒有收到這樣的一個訊息你個人沒有 經濟部有沒有"},{"start":780.407,"end":802.952,"text":"因為你是代表經濟部你不是個人那我剛才已經跟您報告就是我沒有收到你沒有收到好因為本席也不希望我們被污蔑這個就是我們在質詢當中能夠好好的去溝通說明清楚我們謝謝委員的這個垂詢其實我們到日本參展這件事情我們基本上是沒有"},{"start":803.852,"end":817.626,"text":"不是會員沒有資格去參展但是日本基於友好的這樣的一個關係邀請我們去參展所以這裡面當然有一些對我們有惡意的國家就會來挑撥離間會來見縫插針"},{"start":821.249,"end":836.907,"text":"所以我向委員這一部分你要了解我們同仁之間在穿梭這個案件的時候非常非常努力的千萬不要落入別人千萬不要落入這個輕痛愁快的這樣的一個境界"},{"start":837.347,"end":860.064,"text":"部長你現在說明的立場也就是全國國民的心聲我們也非常的希望政府部門可以說明清楚我們並沒有照你剛才說的我們經濟並沒有收到這樣的訊息我們要讓國人安心因為20億大家全力的支持也就是希望讓台灣在世界能夠發光發熱 是不是"},{"start":862.165,"end":874.519,"text":"我們去接受這個邀請去參展到別人家去做客我想我們有很多的事情必須要這按照主人的這個條件主人的這個規定來進行"},{"start":877.142,"end":906.32,"text":"不可能我们恣意乱行很多的人要求我们做一些我认为是没有这个太有意义的部分这个反而让我们自爱难行我想委员的这个好意应该也是这个部分所以让我们共同努力实际上让所有去看到在去参加这个展览的人都能够了解我们这个所谓的tech world这个馆是表现出"},{"start":907.04,"end":930.862,"text":"我們非常優異的部分對所以在2022年部長你我本席再次強調也再次提醒因為你在這裡有承諾也就是說我們既然不是在國家區我們好不容易也可以爭取到所以20億全力的支持也就是您所說的希望能夠透過各方的管道能夠讓台灣台灣"},{"start":932.844,"end":959.886,"text":"台灣的一個意象能夠在這當中來展露我想這是對於我們全國國民大家都非常的期待我也希望有任何不正確的訊息能夠透過經濟部也要嚴格去管控去說明清楚而不是隨波逐流我們的目的也就是希望讓我們的產業都能夠再次的強調是在世界看得到而且是跟世界接軌謝謝是謝謝委員好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":330,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時16分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。據媒體披露，台電準備要提出漲價方案，而且預估這個方案是整體電價平均漲幅6%，民生住宅以及小商店用電幅度會更高，介於11%到33%。以目前家庭平均每月用電338度的非夏月電價來比較，估計每個月的電費要增加一百多塊，在這樣的情況之下，本席要請教，更傳出台電這一波調漲鎖定了長年凍漲的330度以下民生住宅以及小商店用電，台電要爭取調升到過去的水準，也就是每度大概是2塊到3塊。這一波的民生跟小商店用電330度以上，也會採取用電越多，漲幅越大的原則。部長，你知不知道這個事情？經濟部的立場究竟是什麼？經濟部也是建議調漲嗎？請說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想你也非常清楚電價的調漲不是經濟部決定的，電價的調漲是電價審議委員會多數的人來決定調漲，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，部長，你有聽聞這樣子的方案嗎？請教。"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分基本上都不是台電裡面討論的方向。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，所以剛剛本席所說的媒體披露，是沒有這回事嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：媒體有很多會去……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你不知道這個訊息？"],["郭部長智輝：我不知道這個訊息。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，好一個不知道訊息，所以本席要請教經濟部的立場，在目前臺灣的面向，站在經濟部的立場，你認為仍舊還是以漲價為主嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：經濟部的立場就是綜合考量目前的經濟動盪以及國人的需求。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你這樣說就對了，因為你是經濟部，你一定會綜合考量，所以在你綜合考量之下，立即要到下個月、4月份。在目前綜合考量的情況之下，你現在還會認為漲價是好的方案嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：如果今天台電是民營企業的話，勢必要漲價。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請以目前台電的樣態……"],["郭部長智輝：但是台電現在是國營企業，它必須肩負國家照顧國人這樣的任務。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這句話就對了！"],["郭部長智輝：所以這個任務我們要非常重視。剛才我想委員所指教的，也就是我們過去數年凍漲最重要的一個因素，我們現在是要請國家來補助台電，然後因為過去凍漲造成它負債，已經舉債到92%了。我們希望如果能夠撥補給我們，有舉債的空間，對我們來講，我想我們會做其他更好的努力啦！我們現在就是有一點，因為負債過大，剛才有人說你不要再增加舉債了啦！舉債的利息負擔更多等等，所以我要跟委員報告，您剛才所關心的部分，也是我們關心的部分，但是我們沒有辦法在價格調整之前做出肯定的決定，所以我們會把這些訊息，包括委員所關心的內容都提供給電價審議委員會，由他們斟酌、讓他們去討論。我相信在那些專家、學者之間，他們會討論出一個比較有智慧的決定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，剛剛我運用了一分多鐘的時間讓部長說明，我真的希望聽到政府的立場。第一個，你會提供民眾的聲音，現在如果你一漲價，通膨是非常恐怖。因為目前我們看到如果再漲，尤其像媒體所披露的這個方案，CPI可能會上升到2%甚至以上的情況，大家有一個心聲，就是漲了就回不了頭。尤其在現階段，你身為經濟部部長，你必須綜合臺灣目前整個民生以及產業的樣態，這一點是非常重要，也請你將你剛剛善意的回應告訴電價委員會，務必在現階段凍漲，如果連市民小店家、民生用電都如此的要高漲到更高的水準，我想這是民眾沒有辦法接受的，而我們的目的是政府要好好的讓民眾好生活。工業電價最近這幾年也已經漲了數次，目前統計平均的單價已經高達4.29元，所以本席還是要奉勸，在現階段，你要怎麼樣讓民生、小店家能夠先安內，先不要漲，才不會導致通膨，你願意以這樣的方向來建議電價委員會嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的叮嚀，我們一定會把你提的這些內容向電價審議委員會報告。不過我在這個地方向你說明一下，我們基本上的原則是工業電價不能夠高於我們的競爭對手國。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以你總是有一個防堵，這個目的就是要真正照顧我們的產業，但是另外一項，也就是我一直強調的，民生跟小店家現在苦不堪言，絕對不適合在這個階段漲。"],["郭部長智輝：這部分我一定會提供給審議委員會參考。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我相信你有這個能力，因為我不希望你成為一個只會漲價，人家號稱你是漲價部長，我不希望你是這個名稱。"],["郭部長智輝：我是經濟部長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為卓榮泰說他是AI內閣，我也不希望你是漲價部長，卓榮泰不是AI內閣而成為漲價內閣，您剛才回答的是你是經濟部長。"],["郭部長智輝：我不是漲價部長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不是漲價部長，所以你務必……"],["郭部長智輝：也不是水電部長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，也不是水電部長，好，有guts！所以我希望我們好好的來照顧民生，這是一個非常重要的均衡樣態。","接下來本席要請教，關於買綠能，即菲律賓的這個案子，本席也聽到您說，您會實際上去考察，什麼時候會去考察？"],["郭部長智輝：我們大概在確定了以後會分批啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，大約？"],["郭部長智輝：就是實際上面……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大約什麼時候？"],["郭部長智輝：我個人什麼時候可以去？可能就是我如果能夠請假出國的話就會去。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你非常想立即去，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你一定有一個評估，不要笑，對臺灣來講，你一直漲價，你解決不了台電的困境，你的能源政策要怎麼樣去調整？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們的專業……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這非常的重要！"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們專業的部分，包括能源局，包括工研院，包括相關的這些專家，他們會先去。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大約什麼時候？"],["郭部長智輝：應該是月底之前吧！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：月底之前會出發。"],["郭部長智輝：嗯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要請教，因為本席在前半年一直跟你討論，你也有回應，但是你告訴我們的都是具可行性。具可行性也就是還在空想，還沒有實際行動。"],["郭部長智輝：不是空想，可行性我是透過科學的檢驗方法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們剛剛聽到你是說具可行性，但是你剛剛有說了，月底以前專家學者會出發，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：月底以前，這是你現在才告訴我們的，因為在書面答詢沒有這些資料。"],["郭部長智輝：不是，我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們要實際去討論。接下來本席要請問，到底工程費用是多少？到底要採用的運電方式是什麼樣的方式？到底是原先說的海底電纜線？還是電池船的運輸？時程大概是什麼時候？請說明。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們是不是可以另外給你報告？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，你給我報告，你有一個方案，但是我還是要問你，因為這個對我們國家來講是很重要、很重大的工程。"],["郭部長智輝：對，因為這裡面牽涉到一些我不方便在這裡報告的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教，是不是臺菲也採用了什麼樣的方式合作？我想這一點是非常的關鍵，請說明，有沒有合作？"],["郭部長智輝：這個部分我們不方便在這裡報告。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不方便講沒關係，有沒有合作？"],["郭部長智輝：這屬於國安部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，有沒有合作？"],["郭部長智輝：沒有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒有合作，好！我們也希望……也就是在認真推動，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然是積極的在推動。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，是積極在推動。整個能源配比方式要怎麼做，就像本席剛才所說的，這幾年民生也漲了幾次，我不希望你成為一個漲價的部長，你剛才也說了你不是漲價部長。","最後一個議題本席要跟你討論的就是大阪世博，我回想當時我們在2022年一直在討論，這20億我們要怎麼花，我們有一個條件，因為以往上海世博沒有政府出資，都是臺商自己募款，現在我們當然支持臺灣的產業能夠在世界展露，因此最後我們協商的結果就是20億，一毛不刪！希望大家努力去做，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個是我們努力跟日本友好的關係……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好。"],["郭部長智輝：本來世博展，我們不是會員，所以根本就不會受到邀請去參與，這個由主辦國……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，這個就是本席要跟你討論的，當時你承諾的是會多方的讓臺灣出現，甚至持續透過管道，希望以臺灣館的面向來展出，現在我們是以TECH WORLD的方式，但是最近好像聽聞有媒體披露，日方認為臺灣經濟部的官方網站在本月6日發布的聲明內容，是希望能夠更明確說明不是以政府的立場，不是以「臺灣」兩個字的名義參展，有沒有這回事？請問有沒有這回事？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們不是國際展覽局（BIE）的成員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["郭部長智輝：所以沒有辦法直接參展。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當時我們很清楚，本席要請教，6號有沒有這回事？你們經濟部有沒有收到？"],["郭部長智輝：我們因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有收到？請你告訴我就好。"],["郭部長智輝：我們接受日本的邀請，已經是人家給我們很大的誠意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們用20億全力支持嘛！所以本席請教……"],["郭部長智輝：所以我們去參展，我們用……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：其中有變化的時候，是不是誠如媒體所說，經濟部有沒有接到這樣子的訊息？不管是文也好或者是我們的電子網，有沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：我們對於……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有沒有？請告訴本席。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，對於報載的事情，你認為那個信度高嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不用問我認不認，因為你是主事者，你可以告訴社會各位大眾，到底有還是沒有？"],["郭部長智輝：我個人是沒有收到這樣的訊息。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你個人沒有？經濟部有沒有？因為你是代表經濟部，你不是個人。"],["郭部長智輝：我代表經濟部，我剛才已經跟您報告，就是我沒有收到。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你沒有收到，好！因為本席也不希望我們被污衊，這個就是我們在質詢當中能夠好好溝通、說明清楚的。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的垂詢。其實我們到日本參展這件事情，基本上我們不是會員沒有資格參展，但是日本基於友好的關係邀請我們參展，所以這裡面當然有一些對我們有惡意的國家就會來挑撥離間，會來見縫插針，所以我向委員說明……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，部長……"],["郭部長智輝：這一部分你要了解我們同仁之間在穿梭這個案件的時候是非常努力的，千萬不要落入親痛仇快這樣的境界。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你現在說明的立場也就是全國國民的心聲，我們也非常希望政府部門可以說明清楚，照你剛才說的，經濟部並沒有收到這樣的訊息，我們要讓國人安心，因為20億是大家全力的支持，也就是希望讓臺灣在世界能夠發光發熱，是不是？"],["郭部長智輝：我們接受這個邀請去參展，到別人家做客，我想我們有很多事情必須要按照主人的條件、主人的規定來進行，我們並不可能恣意亂行，很多人要求我們做一些我認為是沒有太有意義的部分，這個反而讓我們窒礙難行，我想委員的好意應該也是這個部分，所以讓我們共同努力，實際上讓所有去參加這個展覽的人都能夠了解我們在TECH WORLD館能表現出我們非常優異的部分。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，部長，本席再次強調，也再次提醒，因為你在這裡有承諾，也就是說，我們既然不是在國家區，好不容易可以爭取到，所以20億全力的支持，也就是您所說的，希望能夠透過各方管道，能夠讓臺灣的意象能夠在這當中來展露，我想這是全國國民都非常期待的，我也希望有任何不正確的訊息，能夠透過經濟部嚴格去管控、說明清楚，而不是隨波逐流。再次強調我們的目的也就是希望讓我們的產業都能夠讓世界看得到，而且是跟世界接軌，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請陳亭妃委員詢答，陳亭妃委員詢答完休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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審查委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「學校午餐法草案」案。(十) 審查委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十一) 審查委員張雅琳等17人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育法草案」案。(十二) 審查委員柯志恩等21人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十三) 審查委員陳培瑜等26人擬具「學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(十四) 審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「高級中等以下學校及幼兒園午餐供餐法草案」案。(十五) 審查委員王鴻薇等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十六) 審查委員葉元之等20人擬具「學校飲食健康促進法草案」案。(十七) 審查委員陳秀寳等20人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十八) 審查委員林宜瑾等33人擬具「學校飲食法草案」案。(十九) 審查委員劉建國等17人擬具「學校飲食教育法草案」案。(二十) 審查委員徐巧芯等19人擬具「學校營養飲食供餐法草案」案。(二十一) \t審查委員邱鎮軍等25人擬具「高級中等以下學校供餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十二) 審查委員羅廷瑋等20人擬具「高級中等以下學校午餐及飲食教育條例草案」案。(二十三) 審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案。\n二、審查「運動產業發展條例」：\n(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T10:12:45+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T10:25:50+08:00","duration":785,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":1.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.90784375,"end":7.101593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.08034375,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.37096875,"end":12.214718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.214718750000003,"end":29.157218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.67721875,"end":22.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.680343750000002,"end":30.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.16971875,"end":37.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.096593750000004,"end":40.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.27784375,"end":391.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.02346875,"end":291.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.81784375,"end":405.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.93971875,"end":397.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":401.23409375,"end":402.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.65971875,"end":407.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.54971875,"end":460.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.95034375,"end":409.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.61721875,"end":477.13784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":478.50471875000005,"end":495.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.44346875,"end":500.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":495.98721875,"end":500.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.28596875000005,"end":547.8272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":502.02846875000006,"end":504.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":506.14596875,"end":507.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.44534375,"end":507.47909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.87971875000005,"end":508.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":508.89659375,"end":512.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.96346875,"end":513.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.97596875,"end":515.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":515.0390937500001,"end":515.2922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.2922187500001,"end":517.1315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":517.1315937500001,"end":519.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":520.9453437500001,"end":523.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":525.82221875,"end":528.4209687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":533.3484687499999,"end":533.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":534.51284375,"end":537.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.9722187500001,"end":538.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":538.2084687500001,"end":538.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.2422187500001,"end":538.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.7397187500001,"end":540.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":540.7734687500001,"end":541.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.0603437500001,"end":541.0772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":543.54096875,"end":543.5578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":543.64221875,"end":555.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.82284375,"end":551.0165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.80971875,"end":553.2947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.4040937500001,"end":568.6003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":560.1628437500001,"end":560.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":561.47909375,"end":570.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.35971875,"end":570.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.0134687500001,"end":573.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":573.2409687500001,"end":574.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.88221875,"end":588.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":577.0547187500001,"end":579.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":588.96846875,"end":593.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.2553437500001,"end":596.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.72721875,"end":594.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":594.5203437499999,"end":594.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.84096875,"end":595.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.92909375,"end":598.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.93721875,"end":603.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.3584687499999,"end":605.1515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.79284375,"end":610.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.6953437500001,"end":608.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01",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沒有錯我們在110年的時候本席跟您我們有一起參加過一個記者會你有印象嗎"},{"start":39.244,"end":44.125,"text":"記者會參加太多了太多了 這個記者會非常的重要在110年3月的時候當時我跟您還有跟黃國樹委員我們一起參加了營養師全國聯合會以及大餉食育協會當時我們是要來支持這個飲食營養促進法那也就是現在我們大家一直在談的這個營養午餐專法也好這個午餐這個專法都好"},{"start":64.449,"end":79.851,"text":"那 你看看110年到現在包括你剛剛所說的從108年 109年到現在多少年過去了所以如果今天在這裡我們是不是應該就要就營養午餐專法到底啊 知然難行的地方在哪裡我們準備到什麼地方去討論所以我想"},{"start":82.213,"end":85.614,"text":"剛才特別您跟柯志文馬上就用這個才化法把這個問題就擋住了我個人覺得不太好所以我想今天我們好好的來討論一下我們現在營養午餐專法走到哪裡了那什麼地方應該再藉由這一次我們招委排的這個專報我們可以來更細緻的把它去做一個說明"},{"start":104.64,"end":120.87,"text":"現在我們來看您剛才也說到這個潘文忠部長過去也很支持也趕快要推那以前他也講過說這個營養53專法這個草案出來了他希望在該會期那個會期呢就要去完成所以大家都急嘛包括之前林明裕次長也有提過說我們要趕快來通過嘛"},{"start":122.651,"end":139.747,"text":"可是事實上就是到現在還沒看到半個影子院版也還沒有出來那不版其實有了但是現在我們還沒有辦法進行討論好 我們今天來看營養午餐專法何其重要我們在這邊要再重新來說一次好 我們看到現在在各縣市各校我們營養午餐的樣態非常非常的多"},{"start":142.87,"end":146.971,"text":"每一個縣市不同每一個學校不同樣態非常的多甚至還有一樣的樣態執行起來有不一樣的狀況跟效果出來所以營養午餐專法的重要我們看到營養午餐的這個統一規範其實我想中央是責無旁貸那地方執行當然也是要透徹所以我們來看過去不管是在102年發生了這個劣質油的時候"},{"start":165.777,"end":187.406,"text":"我們就會想到孩子的營養午餐怎麼樣然後蘇丹紅的時候我們也想到孩子的學校營養午餐會不會受影響萊豬事件我們也曾經在這邊要修過一起要修過這個學校衛生法第23條等等就是一旦有食安的事情我們想到都是學校的問題所以我想這個營養午餐專法真的非常的重要當然現在不管是學校衛生法"},{"start":188.646,"end":210.263,"text":"好 我們教育部來主責的食農教育法 農業部主責的營養及健康飲食促進法 衛福部主責的但是我們就是沒有一個專法所以我們在地方上在執行營養午餐的時候其實有的時候真的沒有一個統一的規則我覺得造成地方很大的困擾那我也相信你來自於地方你一定知道好 我們再看到2025年2月的時候 也是今年2月"},{"start":215.266,"end":240.355,"text":"監委的一個調查報告上面指出教育部他直指教育部沒有落實這個對營養午餐的一個把關那我們看到現在很多的學校營養午餐這個不管是熱量超標這個很常見然後水果乳品分配不足這個也是有的炸物過多可能為了要討好孩子的口味然後以及我們不管是這個加工品 拌製品過多"},{"start":242.116,"end":262.723,"text":"其實這些都是監察院的報告出來的所以他也直指這是嚴重的影響了學生的健康發展而且他也說了沒有訂定這個學校午餐專法要求教育部要改進所以這個應該是我們學校也好老師也好學生家長或者您跟我"},{"start":263.483,"end":291.375,"text":"監察院大家都知道這個要快所以呢像現在如果我們沒有統一的標準我舉個例子喔也是來自於您的所在的區域台中喔在我們面對這個萊豬這個事件的時候你看台中市政府的態度跟中央就不一樣台中市政府就是更嚴格的去把關好後來呢我想我們中央有意見但是我們現在看到像這個萊豬之爭台中市政府最後還是贏了也就是說大家都知道實案的把關才是要用最高的標準來看的喔"},{"start":291.795,"end":316.603,"text":"所以呢 好 那這個次長 我們現在回過頭來把這些問題都把它釐清過來 包括營養午餐專法如果沒有制定下來 沒有一個統一的標準我們看到我們的食安的管理 恐怕還是會有很多漏洞出現那專法呢 不管是我們去規範這個食材的供應廠商的資格啦或者茶盒啦 或者這個食材追溯的一些相關制度啊 這都是會有的"},{"start":317.483,"end":324.186,"text":"那另外呢也就是呢過去我們一起都在講的不管是我們營養師或廚工的這個不足我想透過的專法也會有一個相當的保障那再來我們不管是在菜單還有這個營養的上面我們也一直都很在乎可是如果今天有專法我們在營養師跟廚工上面給予他們更多的支持我想在這個菜單跟營養上面我覺得我們可以做得更好那最後"},{"start":343.115,"end":363.123,"text":"我想這個經費跟補助上面這個問題就更大了我想我們特別來講到這個經費我想次長應該知道我們現在各縣市各校你真的是吃營養午餐營養午餐的那個價格完全不一樣我在想少的還有二三十塊這個一餐的三四十塊一餐多的有七八十塊九十塊一餐的"},{"start":363.743,"end":390.24,"text":"孩子都一樣啊每一個孩子都應該是平等的但我們卻有這樣的落差也許你要告訴我說食材的來源不一樣啊有的舊地啊舊境啊什麼的但是呢我們是不是就是應該要制定一個專法那在專法之下我們怎麼去保障說在成本之外我們要用這個可以有透明公開的方式不是說大家吃的不一樣那你看現在又有的是這個使用者付費那有的就是這個這個可能這個縣市是完全免費這"},{"start":391.881,"end":418.209,"text":"很亂啊 很奇怪啊那你看啊 如果完全免費的就是因為這樣所以很難有一個專法來 次長 如果完成免費的不不不 你這個說法其實很不對喔我應該這樣講 你在那個位置你這樣說你今天在這個位置上過去你也不是這樣講我在那個位置我一樣也是知道說沒有 過去在這個位置的講法是什麼就因為有這麼多的問題所以我們才要制定專法不是因為有這麼多問題所以專法很難制定不是這樣子的說法啦所以次長 你也知道有這麼多問題"},{"start":419.189,"end":438.747,"text":"因為要解決這麼多問題我們要趕快把專法制定起來而不是你剛剛這樣說這有一點本末倒置所以我在想剛剛我們提到這個還有經費上的問題這也應該要統一也要公開也要透明所以我想專法的制定這一次我真的跟您站在完全不同立場看這件事所以才要快速而不是說這麼複雜所以就沒有辦法做所以我們剛剛也都知道說我們希望"},{"start":443.712,"end":458.078,"text":"有一個中央層級的專法出來那過去您自己我昨天在回頭看了一下當時我們開記者會你們的說法我想跟本席提現在的說法其實也是一致的我們要真的能夠趕上日韓因為孩子的健康不能等所以怎麼樣趕快把這個專法出來那這個"},{"start":460.714,"end":476.205,"text":"市長今天能不能有一個時間我希望這個教育部能夠趕快去催促不管是自己的部板或者是一個院板讓整個行政團隊能夠跟我們的老師、家長甚至於我們食材廠商等等我們站在一起所以這個時間上"},{"start":479.231,"end":493.26,"text":"謝謝萬委員的這個關心我想時間上我不知道要怎麼回答你但是我剛才你剛才提了很多問題沒有讓我時間來澄清跟回答比如說你提到的營養師的問題我們質詢了那營養師有沒有增加這個次長我想我們剛剛講對不起我們剛剛講的每一項問題你說食材的問題次長我們從這個午餐契約的我想次長"},{"start":501.186,"end":504.227,"text":"我想我們剛講的每一項我不會不讓你回答因為我們還要去審查嘛我想趙偉還會談嘛所以今天我把這個問題提出來如果今天我們有個半個小時的時間以上我們當然有辦法一條一條談市長 不要這樣過去如果你站在這個位置對面是這樣子來答詢的話我想你應該也不會接受這樣答詢啦所以不要說站在那個位置上就這樣做"},{"start":528.393,"end":536.763,"text":"所以我現在要告訴你的是說今天問題點出來你也很清楚這些問題點但這個問題點是必須點出來的至於你講的每一點每一點要不要時間給您回答呢我們在草案的時候大家可以一條一條來回答但你必須要準備好啊如果你都沒有準備好布板也沒有出來院板也沒有出來那我們修法增加的這些錢"},{"start":548.897,"end":550.959,"text":"過去的補助的清費 地方政府會不會買單你這個地方政府不買單我們怎麼去修這個法哎呀 次長我覺得啦你不要站在這個位置跟站在那個位置我覺得在面對答詢的態度是不一樣但是環境有改變嘛那我們必須要務實的來面對這樣的情況我們把它講清楚"},{"start":571.055,"end":592.085,"text":"你過去站在這個位置的時候你會這樣子嗎你過去在質詢的時候非常溫潤儒雅然後呢其實每一次我告訴你沒有一個對面的部長這樣子的你怎麼當到次長你這樣呢你過去在這裡講的時候如果今天林明裕次長這樣子回答你你有辦法質詢下去嗎你有辦法質詢下去嗎本席今天也告訴你說我們在頭上面到底要不要聽報告時間暫停時間暫停"},{"start":599.963,"end":609.764,"text":"那個我們這邊質詢一問一答麻煩次長這個確認一下我們這個規定好謝謝尊重我們提出質詢的委員"},{"start":612.307,"end":628.738,"text":"次長我想我們過去的溝通都很好沒有一次像現在這樣今天本席也講得非常的清楚說以上的問題是把它點出來加強地點出來那希望我們在審查的時候有條文的時候我們再來一一講今天不是不給您時間講而且我相信這些問題過去你也知道"},{"start":630.359,"end":644.224,"text":"但是今天用這樣的方式我覺得不太好你過於強勢那今天我們只是要提醒你說這也是你過去的主張本身只是再次的提醒你那我們在審查的時候 召委會排嘛召委要排的時候是不是我們就可以再來逐條討論那我希望說你不本要趕快出來嘛你願本要趕快催出來嘛"},{"start":649.006,"end":661.392,"text":"這是過去你自己說的話呀所以我這邊再一次跟你提我希望啦能夠在一個月之內趕快把布板或是院板吹出來我們才有辦法繼續往下走那在這個討論的時候我們再針對這些一條一條來討論好不好那最後想給我再一分鐘的時間就好庭委不好意思那我想體育署體育署這邊我只要提醒一件事因為時間一分鐘的時間"},{"start":672.117,"end":697.491,"text":"就是我們現在有聽說到說教育部打算要讓國小的體育班轉型甚至於可能就是直接廢掉體育班變成社團的模式有這樣的事情嗎報告委員我們基本上沒有要讓體育班退場我們是在這個討論的過程當中很多委員提到體育班的一些現況跟他一些地方不夠完善那我們希望協助他在不動課綱的情況之下來做部分的轉型"},{"start":698.547,"end":719.789,"text":"我簡單回答一下啦,其實那天是因為那個專業教練協會來拜訪那我們也提到說在籌組運動部的過程裡面,很多選手出身的,或者是教練或者諮詢委員認為說那個體育班過早在國小就,社立體育班過早分流,那對孩子的學習體育的方式可能會造成一些不良的影響"},{"start":720.45,"end":737.158,"text":"那我們其實是盤點了之後那也請國教署去看一下課綱的時數就是說我們第七節以後有一些彈性課那是不是我們將來如果可能教育政策能夠允許的話國小的部分讓更多的孩童都能夠接觸到一般相關的"},{"start":738.439,"end":742.502,"text":"我簡單的下一個結論就是說體育班的部分你們希望怎麼樣處理更完善那我覺得我們大家都會支持但是可能第一個不能貿然退場第二個我們要轉型要說明因為現在這個消息出來已經造成我們國小的體育班家長跟學生還有教練人心惶惶"},{"start":758.375,"end":778.702,"text":"所以我們要趕快對外做說明媒體沒有採訪我們他是聽過轉述所以在轉述的內容裡面確實會影響基層國小尤其是國小部分教練的一些恐慌這部分我們會透過管道能夠跟這些教練好就是說清楚說明白如果要轉型的話我覺得要全方位的去完善考量這樣好不好好謝謝謝謝委員的關心謝謝謝謝萬美玲委員的資訊次長請回座"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":249,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（10時12分）有請張廖萬堅次長。"],["主席：請次長備質詢。"],["張廖次長萬堅：萬委員好。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，我想過去站在這邊的是張廖萬堅委員，現在站在那邊的是張廖萬堅次長，以我過去我們一起在教育文化委員會，我想各項的教育議題，不管你在哪個位置，我認為你都不會改變，這是對的嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有錯。"],["萬委員美玲：好，沒有錯。在110年的時候，本席跟您，有一起參加過一個記者會，你有印象嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：記者會參加太多了。"],["萬委員美玲：太多了？這個記者會非常重要，在110年3月，當時我跟您還有黃國書委員，我們一起參加了營養師全國聯合會，以及大享食育協會，當時我們是要來支持飲食營養促進法，也就是現在我們大家一直在談的這個營養午餐專法也好，或是午餐專法都好。你看，從110年到現在，包括你剛剛所說的，從108年、109年到現在，多少年過去了，所以今天在這裡，我們是不是應該要就營養午餐專法到底窒礙難行的地方在哪裡，我們準備到什麼地方好好去討論。剛才您跟柯志恩委員討論時，馬上就用財劃法把這個問題擋住了，我個人覺得不太好，所以我想今天我們好好的來討論一下，現在營養午餐專法走到哪裡了？什麼地方應該再藉由這一次召委安排的這個專報，我們可以來更細緻地把它做一個說明。","好，現在我們來看，您剛剛也說到潘文忠部長過去也很支持，也想要趕快推，以前他也講過，說營養午餐專法草案已經出來了，他希望在那個會期就要去完成，所以大家都急嘛，包括之前林明裕次長也有提過，說我們要趕快來通過嘛，可是事實上就是到現在還沒看到半個影子，院版也還沒有出來，部版其實有了，但現在我們還沒有辦法進行討論。","好，我們今天來看，營養午餐專法何其重要，我們在這邊要再重新來說一次，現在各縣市各校營養午餐的樣態非常非常的多，每一個縣市不同，每一個學校不同，甚至還有一樣的樣態執行起來有不一樣的狀況跟效果出來，可見營養午餐專法的重要。營養午餐的統一規範，我想中央是責無旁貸，當然地方執行也要澈底。過去不管是102年發生了劣質油的時候，或發現蘇丹紅的時候，我們就會想到孩子的營養午餐會不會受影響，萊豬事件發生後，我們也曾經在這邊要修學校衛生法第二十三條，就是一旦有食安事件發生，我們想到的都是學校的問題，所以我想營養午餐專法真的非常重要。當然，現在雖然有教育部主責的學校衛生法、農業部主責的食農教育法或衛福部主責的營養及健康飲食促進法，但是我們就是沒有一個專法，地方上在執行營養午餐的時候，有的時候就是因為沒有一個統一的規則而造成地方很大的困擾，您來自於地方，相信您一定知道。","2025年2月，監委的一個調查報告直指教育部沒有落實對營養午餐的把關，現在很多學校的營養午餐，熱量超標很常見，水果、乳品分配不足也是有的，炸物過多可能為了要討好孩子的口味，以及加工品、半製品過多，這些都是監察院的報告指出來的，認為嚴重影響學生的健康發展，而且還說沒有訂定學校營養午餐專法，要求教育部要改進。所以學校、老師、學生家長、監察院或您跟我，大家都知道這個要快，像現在沒有統一的標準，我舉個例子，也是來自於您所在的區域臺中，在面對萊豬事件的時候，臺中市政府的態度就跟中央不一樣，臺中市政府就是更嚴格的把關，後來中央有意見，但是我們看到萊豬之爭最後臺中市政府還是贏了，也就是說，大家都知道食安的把關應該要用最高的標準來看。","次長，我們現在回過頭來，把這些問題都釐清，包括營養午餐專法如果沒有制定，沒有統一的標準，我們食安的管理恐怕還是會有很多的漏洞出現。那專法不管是規範食材供應廠商的資格、查核或食材追溯的相關制度，都是會有的。另外，過去我們一直在講的營養師、廚工人力不足，專法也會予以相當的保障。再來，我們一直都很在乎菜單和營養，如果今天有專法，給予營養師跟廚工更多的支持，我想在菜單跟營養上面就可以做得更好。","最後相關的經費跟補助，問題就更大了，我們特別講到這個經費，我想次長應該知道現在各縣市各校營養午餐的價格完全不一樣，少的有一餐二三十塊錢、三四十塊錢的，多的有七八十塊錢、九十塊錢的，每一個孩子都應該是平等的，但營養午餐價格卻有這樣的落差，也許你要告訴我說食材的來源不一樣，有的是就地、就近取材，但是不是就是應該要制定一個專法，在專法之下，怎麼保障在成本之外可以有透明公開的方式，而不是說大家吃的不一樣？現在有的是使用者付費，有的就是完全免費，很亂，很奇怪。"],["張廖次長萬堅：其實就是因為這樣，所以很難有一個專法。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，完全免費的……不、不、不，你這個說法其實很不對，我應該這樣講，您今天在那個位子你這樣說，您過去在這個位子上也不是這樣講的。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我在那個位子也一樣知道……"],["萬委員美玲：沒有，過去在這個位子的講法是什麼？"],["張廖次長萬堅：它會有一些問題要處理。"],["萬委員美玲：正因為有這麼多的問題，所以我們才要制定專法，而不是因為有這麼多問題，所以專法很難制定，不是這樣子的說法。所以，次長，你也知道有這麼多問題，因為要解決這麼多問題，我們要趕快把專法制定起來，而不是你剛剛這樣說的，這有一點本末倒置。剛剛我們提到還有經費上的問題，這也應該要統一，也要公開、透明，所以這一次我真的跟您站在完全不同立場看專法的制定，我認為要快速，而不是說這麼複雜，所以沒有辦法做。我們希望有一個中央層級的專法出來，我昨天再回頭看了一下當時我們開記者會您的說法，我想跟本席現在的說法其實也是一致的，我們真的要能夠趕上日、韓，因為孩子的健康不能等，所以怎麼樣趕快把專法提出來，次長，今天能不能有一個時間表？我希望教育部能夠趕快去催促，不管是部版或者是院版，讓整個行政團隊能夠跟老師、家長甚至食材廠商站在一起，所以這個時間上……"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝萬委員的關心，時間上我不知道要怎麼回答你，你剛才提了很多問題，沒有讓我有時間來澄清跟回答，譬如你提到營養師的問題，我們質詢了，那營養師有沒有增加？中央有沒有補助呢？是有的。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，對不起，我們剛剛講的每一項問題……"],["張廖次長萬堅：你說食材的問題……"],["萬委員美玲：次長！次長！次長！我想我們剛剛講的每一項……"],["張廖次長萬堅：你可以讓我回答的話，我就會回答。"],["萬委員美玲：我不會不讓你回答，因為我們還要去審查，我想教文委員會還會談，所以今天我把這個問題提出來……"],["張廖次長萬堅：你剛剛提到了食安的問題，都有規定的……"],["萬委員美玲：如果今天我們有半個小時以上的時間，我們當然有辦法一條一條談……"],["張廖次長萬堅：大家最關心的萊豬的問題，我們在共同供應契約裡面也訂了……"],["萬委員美玲：次長！次長！不要這樣，過去如果你站在這個位子，對面是這樣來答詢的話，我想你應該也不會接受。"],["張廖次長萬堅：不會、不會、不會，我想我們必須要了解實況嘛！"],["萬委員美玲：所以不要說站在這個位子上就這樣做。所以我現在要告訴你的是說今天問題點出來，你也很清楚這些問題點，但是問題點是必須點出來的，至於你講的每一點要不要有時間給您回答……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們很尊重大家對問題點的討論……"],["萬委員美玲：我們在審查草案的時候，大家可以一條一條來回答，但你必須要準備好啊！如果你都沒有準備好，部版沒有出來，院版也沒有出來，那怎麼行呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們準備好了，唯一沒有準備好的是修法增加的這些錢，過去補助的經費，地方政府會不會買單？"],["萬委員美玲：次長，我想你要……"],["張廖次長萬堅：地方政府不買單，我們怎麼去修這個法？"],["萬委員美玲：次長，我覺得你不要站在這個位子跟站在那個位子態度不一樣……"],["張廖次長萬堅：不是，位子不一樣，但是環境有改變……"],["萬委員美玲：所以我認為……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們必須務實的來面對這樣的情況，我們把它講清楚……"],["萬委員美玲：次長！你過去站在這個位子的時候，你會這樣子嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：不是，我是跟你說，因為……"],["萬委員美玲：你過去在質詢的時候非常溫文儒雅，然後其實每一次……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我現在也很溫文儒雅啊，我現在有很兇悍嗎？"],["萬委員美玲：我告訴你沒有一個部長這樣子的，你怎麼當了次長這樣呢？你過去在這裡講的時候，如果今天林明裕次長這樣子回答你，你有辦法質詢下去嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：不是，我是把事實說出來……"],["萬委員美玲：你有辦法質詢下去嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：說我們困難的地方，教育的經費減少給他們很大的壓力……"],["萬委員美玲：本席今天也告訴你，我們在條文上面……你到底要不要聽？把我的時間暫停！"],["主席：好，時間暫停。","我們在這邊質詢一問一答，麻煩次長確認一下我們這個規定，尊重我們提出質詢的委員。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝，對不起。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，我想我們過去的溝通都很好，沒有一次像現在這樣，今天本席也講得非常的清楚，以上的問題是把它點出來、加強的點出來，希望我們在審查條文的時候再來一一講，今天不是不給您時間講，而且我相信這些問題過去你也知道，但是今天用這樣的方式，我覺得不太好，你過於強勢。今天我們只是要提醒你說，這也是你過去的主張，本席只是再次提醒你，那我們在審查的時候召委會排嘛，召委要排的時候，是不是我們就可以再來逐條討論，我希望你的部版要趕快出來，院版要趕快催出來嘛，這是過去你自己說的話呀！所以我再一次跟你提，我希望能夠在一個月之內趕快把部版或院版催出來，我們才有辦法繼續往下走，在討論的時候，我們再針對這些一條一條來討論，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["萬委員美玲：最後請再給我一分鐘的時間就好。廷瑋，不好意思。體育署這邊我只要提醒一件事，因為只有一分鐘的時間，就是我們現在聽說教育部打算要讓國小的體育班轉型，甚至於可能就是直接廢掉體育班，變成社團的模式，有這樣的事情嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們基本上沒有要讓體育班退場，而是在討論的過程當中，很多委員提到體育班的現況跟有一些地方不夠完善，我們希望協助它在不動課綱的情況之下來做部分的轉型。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我簡單回答一下，其實那天是因為專任教練協會來拜訪，我們也提到在籌組運動部的過程裡面，很多選手出身的或是教練、諮詢委員認為在國小設立體育班，過早分流，對孩子學習體育的方式可能會造成一些不良的影響，我們其實是盤點了之後，也請國教署去看一下課綱的時數，就是第七節以後有一些彈性課，將來如果教育政策能夠允許的話，是不是國小的部分讓更多的孩童都能夠接觸體育班相關的重點項目。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，我簡單下個結論，體育班的部分你們希望怎麼樣處理更完善，我覺得我們大家都會支持……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們一定會訂定……"],["萬委員美玲：但是可能第一個，不能貿然退場；第二個，轉型要說明，因為現在這個消息出來已經造成國小體育班的家長、學生及他的教練都人心惶惶，所以我們要趕快對外說明。"],["張廖次長萬堅：那些媒體沒有採訪我們，他是聽過轉述，所以在轉述的內容裡面確實會影響基層國小，尤其是國小部分教練的一些恐慌，這部分我們會透過管道跟這些教練好好溝通。"],["萬委員美玲：好，就是說清楚說明白，如果要轉型的話，我覺得要全方位地去完善考量，這樣好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好。"],["萬委員美玲：好，以上，謝謝。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員的關心。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員的質詢，次長請回座、官員請回座。","我們這個是詢答，立法院的委員提出詢問，也希望部會官員就提出解答。我們是提出問題，然後部會官員提出解答，而不是部會官員提出問題。","接下來我們有請羅廷瑋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra 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審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159436","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159436","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb04fbf9bedd034458db06f2ced2e0bc090525a0be0b44ec4a3ea8a73a6fda787c85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:14:17 - 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謝謝趙偉 請我們財政部莊部長請莊部長部長早 部長先請教你那個香菇攜帶的問題目前我們攜帶農蓄水產品或食品類的入境關於乾香菇的限量規定是否還是規定就是每次只能1公斤"},{"start":34.568,"end":52.596,"text":"這個細節的部分,我是不是請我們關護署署長說,謝謝報告委員,剛剛薑菇的部分,現在應該是一公斤,就是如果說攜帶入境,不能超過,就免申報,就直接入境免申請查驗,最多就是一公斤"},{"start":53.797,"end":65.723,"text":"但是我最近收到沽農的陳情他說從金門海關可以放行攜帶三公斤進來所以目前關務署這邊的查緝作業是如何執行"},{"start":66.997,"end":91.013,"text":"包委員我們的規定一公斤就是一公斤我們都是依照法定的但是最近好像就是說他們陳情都是三公斤就沒有再查緝他們期待三公斤也可以進來所以我才問你對農業執行的情形如何我們會確實要求農業執行所以這部分要加強查緝那我想我要求關務署是不是把今年一到三月"},{"start":92.099,"end":105.951,"text":"或者在未來每一季你們茶器的不僅只有香菇我想很多的農特產品你們都把茶器的結果做成報告提供給本席還有我們茶友會的委員來做一個了解OK 好 謝謝那書長請回"},{"start":111.53,"end":121.876,"text":"那個部長我想我在總諮詢的時候一直對財化法的行政院版本何時能夠提到我們這個立法院來我很關心這個議題那這個"},{"start":125.526,"end":142.299,"text":"部長你當時回覆本席說財政部修法方向已經確定了包含水平與垂直的分配方式也非常具體也就只差落入文字的呈現但在上週行政院的復議遭到我們立法院否決後"},{"start":143.24,"end":164.998,"text":"卓院長馬上表示將會研議合法合憲的救濟方式但是他現在他會研議他可能會做這目前看到的就是開始政策的宣講會所以我要請問部長財政部是否有派員參與行政院所辦的地方政策的宣講會財政部有派員參加嗎"},{"start":166.6,"end":189.01,"text":"您是說比如說週六週日那樣的一個宣講財政部沒有參加沒有參與我想財政部在業務報告中提到你後續將配合行政院的政策辦理這個是否意味說行政院在政策宣講會結束後就會提出我們行政院的版本"},{"start":191.958,"end":198.142,"text":"這個基本上跟宣講會基本上是沒有什麼相關連也就是對於財化法這個部分我們在去年的12月20號三讀通過那對於相關的內容我們和主席總處詳細的研議以後認為有許多至愛難行的部分那因此就提出了覆議"},{"start":214.555,"end":243.624,"text":"在富裕理由裡面我們也想強烈了這個治安難行的部分不管像是垂直分配的部分因為大量的把中央的財源割出去那會造成這個中央施政的一些去推動跟延續以及包含水平分配的部分許多公視裡面不明確以及有些不合理的地方比如說會有剩下的沒有分出去或者是說在人口還有那個營業營利事業的營業額裡面占比過高"},{"start":245.284,"end":265.672,"text":"會讓原來財政優勢 這個是我們一直在提出來的你那個復議的內容當然我都了解 我們在這邊重複了我比較想去了解就是說3月6號你也召開了這個各縣市的協商會議嘛就3月6號的會議後財政部也表示說多數縣市支持財政部統籌稅款的分配規劃"},{"start":267.253,"end":296.554,"text":"所以陳儒財政部長您所說的就紙紗將文字這個落入所以財政部的財務法的版本依照您當時的說法應該有了嘛就有了嘛跟委員報告我們那天3月6號的開會第一個就是在方向上就是我們會擴大中央統籌分配稅款的一個規模然後把那個滿足這個基本財政需求就是那個基本財政差額都會把它放進去這個部分都會考量"},{"start":297.034,"end":324.497,"text":"同時我們那一天提出來更大一個重點就是在水平分配的裡面有關財政努力跟基本建設的需求裡面有關指標還有權重我們是很明確的把它列舉出來那表示說我們這個部分我們已經有一個初步的這樣的一個成果讓各縣市政府以及三家學者一起來做討論部長我知道你的努力但是我最後還是想了解在這個會期財政部會不會提出版本出來"},{"start":326.121,"end":342.817,"text":"跟委員報告我覺得財化法這個部分第一個12月20號通過這個部分在治安難行的部分我們很可惜就是說復印沒有能夠通過我現在問妳是說妳這個會期會不會提出版本出來因為妳現在很明確告訴我們只差這個文字落入嘛"},{"start":343.877,"end":346.099,"text":"那一天我們在開會的時候3月6號我們的紀錄很快也會出來我覺得已經看完了那你也知道還有一些專家學者們以及建制政府也有提出一些意見這些意見我們都必須要把它納入考量"},{"start":362.609,"end":387.057,"text":"我認為這個部分我們需要再加強的溝通我覺得不需要這麼急迫的一直用就是說急迫因為財務法這個事情部長給你一年的時間了你現在跟我講沒有那麼急迫中央對地方的財政挹注都已經通過了立法院都刪除通過版本了如果行政院認為自愛難行我們也一直告訴行政院財政部儘速提出你們的版本送到立法院來審議"},{"start":388.581,"end":398.792,"text":"我想這個才是討論事情的一個方向而不是我們一直問你說什麼時候可以提出來阿部長一直不願意去很明白的告訴我們國人告訴立法院"},{"start":399.935,"end":425.752,"text":"所以這個會期到底可不可以提出來你說可不可以就好了我想這個部分就我認為還是要充分的交流跟溝通然後有更大的共識那個部長我看你今天有沒有看到聯合報委會陳國良教授就政大責任系的教授兼主任他提到有關於這個新版的朝要法要這樣上路這邊你今天有沒有看到"},{"start":427.093,"end":454.853,"text":"因為我今天還沒有看到我覺得他的建議我簡單跟部長講一下部長他講我覺得他講的很有道理他說新法的有序導入就是有序導入就是希望能夠訂定日出條款讓法案從115年度或11年度來生效他建議財政部要趕快提出新的一個修法的版本"},{"start":455.774,"end":478.077,"text":"第二個他建議要建立日落條款的評估與檢討機制例如徵定本次修正條文生效三年後需檢討施行成效的規定具以進一步修正第三個他說校正復議案所提出的文字遺漏定義不明與比例計算分母不正確等明顯的立法的問題所以部長"},{"start":480.685,"end":483.556,"text":"妳看了 妳瞭解了瞭解瞭解 謝謝妳贊不贊成她這樣的一個建議"},{"start":487.251,"end":507.015,"text":"陳教授其實那天3月6號我們有邀請他但是他因為有其他事情沒有來但他有提書面的意見大致上也是這樣的意見那也就是說我們當時是提復议是希望還有機會再來討論但是因為現在復议也過了這個部分他提了幾項的事情確實也是當初所提到就是因為預算年度以及時間關係我還是建議你盡速的參考各界的意見盡速提出"},{"start":516.577,"end":520.301,"text":"以免你們一直說自然男性現在一直提不出版本謝謝部長 現在請101的董事長 賈董事長"},{"start":543.072,"end":560.842,"text":"賴總統他在3月13日開國安會議之後特別提到說國人赴大陸旅遊要落實登錄的一個制度但是我們看到許多的旅遊業者與協會團體都紛紛表示這將影響到開放台灣旅行社組團赴中國大陸的禁團令"},{"start":562.003,"end":579.117,"text":"解除更加困難中國大陸的旅客來台觀光開放更是遙遙無期我想請教賈董事長您曾對外表示就台北101而言就是業績不靠入客所以不用擔心會有任何的影響"},{"start":580.518,"end":607.87,"text":"但本席想請問你的是畢竟台北101是我們台灣的觀光的指標也就是說你也算是重要的觀光業者之一無論你的業績是否會受影響以一位觀光產業經營者的一個角度你對賴總統所宣示的新措施你覺得對整體觀光產業的影響它的層面會不會有負面的影響"},{"start":609.661,"end":630.817,"text":"如果是以業績 以人流而言的話是一定會有影響的所以說我們在接受到了這樣子的一個指令的時候我們自己其實我覺得觀光業者可能自己要有一些對應的措施你認為這是正面的影響還是負面的影響"},{"start":631.806,"end":655.01,"text":"我認為如果對於業績而言當然是負面的但是就是因為這樣子所以我們才要自己能有更多的對應要有更多的對應所以你的看法反正你站在你經營台北101的角度你就認為我的業績不受影響但是對於其他的觀光業或者旅行團體因為我能夠掌控的就是101"},{"start":659.491,"end":673.319,"text":"我能夠掌控的就是我們101如何要在這樣子對於這個台灣這樣子的時期我們應該要如何能夠對應如何能夠生存甚至把業績做到更好那我想這是我的責任"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":506,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時14分）謝謝召委，請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["林委員思銘：部長早。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["林委員思銘：部長，先請教你香菇攜帶的問題，目前我們攜帶農畜水產品或食品類入境，關於乾香菇的限量規定是否還是規定每次只能1公斤？"],["莊部長翠雲：細節的部分，我是不是請我們關務署署長說明？謝謝。"],["林委員思銘：好，請署長。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，乾香菇現在應該是1公斤。"],["林委員思銘：如果攜帶入境不能超過免申報……"],["彭署長英偉：免查驗。"],["林委員思銘：直接入境，免申請查驗最多就是1公斤。"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["林委員思銘：但是我這個最近收到菇農的陳情，他說從金門海關可以放行攜帶3公斤進來，所以目前關務署這邊的查緝作業是如何執行？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，規定1公斤就是1公斤，我們都是依照法定的。"],["林委員思銘：最近他們陳情的都是3公斤，也就是沒有在查緝，他們攜帶3公斤也可以進來……"],["彭署長英偉：是，那我們回去注意這件事情。"],["林委員思銘：所以我才會問執行的情形如何。"],["彭署長英偉：我們會確實要求同仁依法執行。"],["林委員思銘：所以這部分要加強查緝，我要求關務署把今年1月到3月，或者未來每一季你們查緝的，不僅只有香菇，我想還有很多的農特產品，你們都把查緝的結果做成報告提供給本席，還有我們財委會的委員瞭解。"],["彭署長英偉：是，遵照辦理。"],["林委員思銘：OK，謝謝，署長請回。","部長，我在總質詢時一直對財劃法有所關心，行政院版本何時能夠提到我們立法院來？我很關心這個議題，部長當時回復本席說：財政部修法方向已經確定了，包含水平與垂直的分配方式也非常具體，就只差落入文字的呈現。但上週行政院的覆議遭到我們立法院否決後，卓院長馬上表示將會研議合法、合憲的救濟方式，也就是他會研議，可能會做，目前看到的就是開始政策的宣講會。所以我要請問部長，財政部是否有派員參與行政院所辦的地方政策宣講會，財政部有派員參加嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：您是說比如週六、週日那樣的宣講？"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：財政部沒有參加。"],["林委員思銘：沒有參與？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["林委員思銘：好，我想財政部在業務報告中提到，後續將配合行政院的政策辦理，這個是否意味行政院在政策宣講會結束後，財政部就會提出行政院的版本？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個基本上跟宣講會沒有什麼相關聯。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：也就是財劃法這個部分，我們在去年12月20號三讀通過，對於相關的內容，我們和主計總處詳細研議以後，認為有許多窒礙難行的部分，因此就提出了覆議。在覆議理由裡面我們也詳列了窒礙難行的部分，不管像是垂直分配的部分，因為大量把中央財源割出去，會造成中央施政的一些推動跟延續的影響；以及水平分配的部分，許多公式裡面不明確，以及有些不合理的地方，譬如會有剩下的沒有分出去，或者在人口還有營利事業的營業額占比過高，會讓原來財政優勢……這就是我們一直在提出來的……"],["林委員思銘：部長，打岔一下，你那個覆議的內容，當然我都了解。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["林委員思銘：我們就不在這邊重複了。"],["莊部長翠雲：是、是。"],["林委員思銘：我比較想去了解的是3月6號，你也召開了各縣市的協商會議，在3月6號的會後財政部也表示，多數縣市支持財政部統籌稅款的分配規劃，誠如部長您所說的，就只差將文字落入，所以財政部的財劃法版本，依照您當時的說法，應該就有了嘛！對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們那天3月6號的開會，第一個在方向上，我們會擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模，滿足基本財政需求，就是都會把基本財政差額放進去，這個部分都會考量。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：同時我們那一天提出一個更大的重點，就是在水平分配裡面，有關財政努力跟基本建設的需求，裡面有關指標還有權重，我們是很明確地把它列舉出來，表示這個部分我們已經有一個初步的成果，讓各縣市政府及專家學者一起來做討論。"],["林委員思銘：部長，我知道你的努力，但是我最後還是想了解，在這個會期財政部會不會提版本出來？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我覺得財劃法這個部分，第一個，12月20號通過，而窒礙難行的部分，我們很可惜，覆議沒有能夠通過……"],["林委員思銘：我現在問你的是，你這個會期會不會提版本出來？因為你現在很明確地告訴我們，只差文字落入嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，但你也知道……"],["林委員思銘：這個會期會不會提出來？你給我一個承諾。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，那一天我們在3月6號開會的時候，我們的紀錄也很快會出來，我昨天已經看完了，你也知道還有一些專家學者們以及縣市政府也有提出一些意見，這些意見我們都必須要把它納入考量……"],["林委員思銘：所以還要多久？"],["莊部長翠雲：所以我們一直認為這個部分，還需要再加強的溝通……"],["林委員思銘：還要多久？"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得不需要這麼急迫，因為財劃法這個事情……"],["林委員思銘：部長，一年的時間了……"],["莊部長翠雲：中央對地方的……"],["林委員思銘：你現在跟我講沒那麼急迫……"],["莊部長翠雲：中央對地方的財政因素……"],["林委員思銘：我們都已經通過了，立法院都三讀通過版本了，如果行政院認為窒礙難行，我們也一直告訴行政院、財政部儘速提出你們的版本，送到立法院來審議，我想這個才是討論事情的一個方向，而不是我們一直問你什麼時候可以提出來，部長一直不願意很明白的告訴國人、告訴立法院，所以這個會期到底可不可以提出來？回答可不可以就好了。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我認為還是要充分的交流跟溝通，然後有更大的共識。"],["林委員思銘：OK，好。部長，你今天有沒有看到聯合報，有一位陳國樑教授，就是政大財政系的教授兼主任，他提到有關於「新版財劃法要這樣上路」，這篇你今天有沒有看到？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為我今天還沒有看到。"],["林委員思銘：還沒有看到。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，時間上有點匆促……"],["林委員思銘：我覺得他的建議，我簡單跟部長講一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員思銘：部長，我覺得他講得很有道理。他說：新法的有序導入就是希望能夠訂定日出條款，讓法案從115年度或116年度來生效，他建議財政部要趕快提出新的修法版本；第二個，他建議要建立日落條款的評估與檢討機制，例如增訂本次修正條文生效之三年後，須檢討施行成效的規定，據以進一步修正；第三個，校正覆議案所提出的文字遺漏，定義不明與比例計算分母不正確等明顯的立法問題。所以部長，你看了，了解喔？"],["莊部長翠雲：了解，謝謝。"],["林委員思銘：你贊不贊成他這樣的一個建議？"],["莊部長翠雲：陳教授，其實3月6號那天我們有邀請他，但是他因為有其他事情沒有來，但他還有提書面的意見，大致上也是這樣的意見，就是說我們當時提覆議是希望還有機會再來討論，但是因為現在覆議也過了，這個部分他提了幾項事情，確實也是當中提到……"],["林委員思銘：所以我想你參考啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：就是因為預算年度以及……"],["林委員思銘：部長，因為時間關係，我還是建議你儘速參考各界的意見，儘速提出。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝。"],["林委員思銘：以免你們一直說窒礙難行卻一直提不出版本，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員思銘：謝謝部長。","再請101的董事長，賈董事長。"],["主席：好，賈永媫董事長。"],["林委員思銘：賈董事長，請教賴總統他在3月13日召開國安會議之後，特別提到國人赴大陸旅遊要落實登錄的制度，但是我們看到許多的旅遊業者與協會團體都紛紛表示，這將影響到開放臺灣旅行社組團赴中國大陸的禁團令解除更加困難，中國大陸旅客來臺觀光開放更是遙遙無期。我想請教賈董事長，您曾對外表示，就台北101而言業績不靠陸客，所以不用擔心會有任何的影響，但本席想請問你的是，畢竟台北101是我們臺灣的觀光指標。"],["賈董事長永媫：是。"],["林委員思銘：也就是說，你也算是重要的觀光業者之一，不論你的業績是否會受影響，以一位觀光產業經營者的角度，你對於賴總統所宣示的新措施，你覺得對整體觀光產業的影響，它的層面會不會有負面的影響？"],["賈董事長永媫：如果是以業績，以人流而言的話，是一定會有影響的。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["賈董事長永媫：對，所以我們在接受到這樣一個指令的時候，其實我覺得觀光業者可能自己要有一些對應的措施。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以你認為這是正面的影響？還是負面的影響？"],["賈董事長永媫：我認為，如果對於業績而言當然是負面的。但是就是因為這樣子，所以我們自己才要有更多的對應啊！"],["林委員思銘：要有更多的對應？"],["賈董事長永媫：對啊！"],["林委員思銘：所以你的看法，反正你站在經營台北101的角度，認為我的業績不受影響，但是對於其他的觀光業或旅行團體，你也沒有一個……"],["賈董事長永媫：因為我能夠掌控的就是101，我能夠掌控的就是101如何在臺灣這樣子的時期，我們應該要如何能夠對應、如何能夠生存，甚至把業績做到更好，我想這是我的責任。"],["林委員思銘：好、好，答得很好，謝謝。"],["賈董事長永媫：謝謝，還被誇獎了嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接著我們請鍾佳濱委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_0000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discussion的一個場地人事長用這個開放的態度我希望我們民進黨的中央政府能夠效法你為什麼呢我想請教一下我們台灣有很多的驕傲嘛對不對我不知道人事長你知道我們的工時也是在世界上算是非常驕傲的成績你知道吧"},{"start":54.791,"end":72.736,"text":"我覺得還好 按照我們的統計資料台灣高工時 世界都在看有些事情我們拚第一名那是叫做世界都開心 台灣人也開心但我有一個拚第一名 第二名叫國恥 是什麼"},{"start":74.11,"end":88.725,"text":"就是工時啊 沒錯吧如果我們工時今天拚到讓世界都看到的話我跟人事長講那真的就是我們今天政府要好好去思考我們蔡英文總統有一個名言你聽過吧勞工是什麼"},{"start":93.226,"end":106.772,"text":"對嘛勞工是心理最軟的一塊不要變成勞工變成肝臟最硬的一塊吧對不對所以今天我跟各位說我國的工時高居世界主要各國第五高"},{"start":107.532,"end":123.442,"text":"在亞洲我們也很驕傲我們只輸給新加坡所以再努力一點賣肝把自己打造成所謂的肝硬化國家的話我們就可以贏過新加坡你希望我們的工時高過新加坡嗎 希望不希望 人事長"},{"start":124.846,"end":137.057,"text":"我覺得提升國家整體競爭力的一個要素不見得只有靠增加公司啦當然啦 所以非常謝謝任市長啊你在這個體量上 我跟大家說跟任市長講啦"},{"start":140.2,"end":156.966,"text":"今天國民黨我們提出還價於民還價於 恢復國定價大概恢復幾天社會大眾可以共同討論可是今天如果說我們今天的工時排行是全世界"},{"start":158.186,"end":183.42,"text":"最後一名 亞洲最後一名就是我們工時是最低的啦那我跟你講 那今天我們提還價於民我就覺得一點正當性都沒有因為台灣的工時就是最低的嘛 那還要還價於民可是現在不是啊現在我們其實現代化的國家非常強調的勞工權益除了薪資問題以外就是什麼問題就是什麼問題 請問人事長"},{"start":187.594,"end":210.43,"text":"你說超時加班的問題對嘛 就是不要再乾硬化的問題嘛 對不對就是放假的問題嘛所以我跟任市長說我謝謝你今天的態度是對五一勞動節放假的不否定啦 對不對 沒錯吧就是需要大家一起討論的啦那我請任市長這邊告訴大家"},{"start":212.298,"end":238.615,"text":"肯定一點好不好 五一勞動節勞工值不值得這個假值不值得五一勞動節勞工一定在放假我說我們今天公務員啦 我講的是公務員啦變國定假日可以嗎因為這個議題說真的齁一直那再問你啊 教師節嘛好不好可不可以我覺得這些議題都可以提出來討論啦我回頭告訴你齁當然我必須講啦 對哪一天放假齁"},{"start":239.778,"end":254.138,"text":"我沒有什麼太大的那個意見堅持啦我覺得哪一天放假是讓人民共同來決定嘛對不對沒錯吧可是呢但是我們政府本身先要把政策立場開放出來沒錯吧"},{"start":255.86,"end":280.115,"text":"現在目前我想請教一下我舉個例子 你看東京都嘛東京都政府他現在研議要開放職員週休三日從2025年4月1號起然後東京都政府會改變彈性工時制的運用讓職員每週可以多休一個平日那當然看起來台灣現在可能還很遙遠 這是研議啦"},{"start":281.716,"end":306.689,"text":"那我接下來想請教一下就是說我們剛剛講就是還價移民的這件事情我想請問人事行政總署有沒有針對這個題目已經開始進行內部討論了有沒有還價移民的主體應該是勞動部那些有經貸的客戶人事行政總署我覺得你們剛剛你的意見很好嘛那我想請問有沒有跟我們的勞動部一起來討論匯商這件事情"},{"start":311.619,"end":322.681,"text":"當然那個放假日的我們一定會找教育部還有勞動部大家一起來討論甚至金管會我們也一起來討論非常好嘛但是當然你要講說你是主管公務人員嘛對不對"},{"start":323.735,"end":344.149,"text":"公務人員我跟委員報告我們現在已經有還算不錯的一個彈性上下班的一些機制當然我知道你要講我還是回到原始的問題當然我們的工時我也必須肯定經過歷任政府的努力工時是有在縮少減少對不對沒錯吧對不對可是全世界也在減少"},{"start":345.49,"end":366.225,"text":"不是嗎所以我們才會維持到高工時變成是說世界亞洲第二名這才是我今天講的根本我不知道你今天人事長你認不認同我今天就跟你說如果台灣今天的工時是亞洲這個最低第二低第三低那我跟你講還價於民說真的我就覺得沒有底氣沒錯吧"},{"start":368.208,"end":383.673,"text":"如果我們工時就已經很低了現狀就不是嘛所以我跟任市長說我還是拜託你啦就是我今天肯定你就說剛剛我看王宏威講你馬上講你也不否定這個態度是正確的但是還不夠"},{"start":385.213,"end":411.391,"text":"想想勞工是我們民進黨我們的以前蔡英文總統說心中最軟的一塊那你就應該在這件事情態度上能夠讓往更前面走一步那我們人事總署如果態度積極一點你就可以跟勞動部再做更多的會商啊其實勞動部要比你更軟對勞工更軟才對啦 對不對他是業管主管單位嘛我也會去問勞動部啦但是我先問問人事長嘛"},{"start":413.012,"end":440.458,"text":"所以我要跟人事長說你這個所謂的開放的態度我覺得很好但是還不夠你應該以我們今天人事總長的身份人事長的身份來跟我們的政府多多督促希望能夠讓我們的勞工讓我們的工時這個世界第二高亞洲第二高這個汙名能夠在你跟勞動部的努力之下把它解除掉好不好 拜託"},{"start":441.518,"end":458.659,"text":"我跟委員報告 事實上我現在在思考的就是在既有的遊戲規則裡面增加 就鼓勵公務人員去休假就是來降低他的working hours您用了很多的方法 很多的努力公時就亞洲第二高 世界第五高啊"},{"start":459.6,"end":483.207,"text":"那這個是我們今天面臨最大的問題最後我也不為難你啦你還是要遵從整個中央政府的意見但至少我今天聽到我覺得希望滿滿啊我看你態度很開放啊沒有很強硬說啊今天我就反對啊 對不對所以至少這個態度是一個好的起點我們也會繼續努力啦然後去跟我們的執政政府協調請我們的中央政府真的把勞工當作真正"},{"start":483.767,"end":493.684,"text":"心中最軟的一塊不要讓大家加班加到肝硬化那接下來我想請教您人事長去年我們也差不多這時間在這裡3月27號你記得你當時承諾我什麼事情嗎"},{"start":498.952,"end":513.322,"text":"考你記憶不對啦不能這樣考你我直接說啦你說你非常認同我的建議就是我們今天這個公園調心法治化你會在年底前來提出現在年底過了嗎"},{"start":516.693,"end":533.345,"text":"我該做的努力 我已經做了 我等你十年了你不能只有努力啦 任市長你去年 你就跳我票不是啊 行政院有它固定的一個行政程序啊什麼案子要排列 我跟你講 任市長 我先跟你講齁我不否定你的努力啦"},{"start":534.144,"end":550.866,"text":"但是你也知道今天又不是說今天學生考試在看成績今天政府執政的努力是要看成果的嘛成績可能是個人的我今天考得好考不好是我個人的事情可是你的成果攸關的就是國家"},{"start":551.807,"end":576.628,"text":"所以我跟你講 我沒有說今天要苛責你啦可是說你去年給我期待滿滿 你跟我講我在去年3月質詢你的時候 你跟我講年底就會來做法治化我當然就想 那太好了 我就覺得很受振奮嘛可是到年底我就看沒有啊那你當然我知道 你說你很努力 那中央政府不努力也不能完全怪你啊不是嗎不是中央政府不努力啦 我就跟委員講"},{"start":577.423,"end":591.712,"text":"我就告訴你 中年年底 我的課程高了 老師 教授當時要拋分數 我不知道你的教授真的是變大啦 中央政府教授變大啦那我想請教我們人事長 你可以再努力一點喔 請那個教授不要再睡了啦"},{"start":599.617,"end":627.159,"text":"年底前把那個考卷批出來好不好再給你一個年底好不好你去年三月跟我講年底今年三月我再跟你講年底可以嗎可不可以其實我跟委員報告啦我三不五辭都去拜託啦我都有在持續做這件事情因為行政院它面對的這個法案的數量也非常多它有固定的一個排審在處理啦好謝謝謝謝任市長啦所以拜託任市長"},{"start":627.979,"end":629.481,"text":"我們一起努力一下好不好謝謝你謝謝羅志強委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":433,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時13分）主席，有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["羅委員智強：人事長，我今天要給你肯定，你知道肯定什麼事嗎？我告訴你，我剛剛聽你跟王鴻薇在詢答過程當中，你說我們把五一恢復放假、勞動節恢復放假，你也不反對嘛，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我不反對。"],["羅委員智強：不反對？非常謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這是一個open 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hours。"],["羅委員智強：你用了很多的方法、很多的努力，但我們的工時就亞洲第二高、世界第五高，這個是我們今天面臨最大的問題。最後，我也不為難你，因為你還是要遵從整個中央政府的意見，但至少我今天聽到就覺得希望滿滿。我看你的態度很開放，沒有很強硬說你就是反對，對不對？至少這個態度是一個好的起點，我們也會繼續努力，然後跟執政的政府協調，請中央政府真正把勞工當作心中最軟的一塊，不要讓大家加班加到肝硬化。","接下來我想請教您，去年3月27號我們也差不多這時間在這裡，你記得你當時承諾我什麼事情嗎？考你記憶不對，不能這樣考你。我直接說，你說你非常認同我的建議，就是你會在年底前提出公務員調薪法制化，現在年底過了嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我該做的努力，我已經做了，我去年12月就送……"],["羅委員智強：你不能只有努力，人事長！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，因為行政院……"],["羅委員智強：去年你就跳我票。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是，因為行政院有固定的行政程序，什麼案子要排入院會討論……"],["羅委員智強：人事長，我先跟你講，我不否定你的努力，但是你也知道今天又不是學生考試在看成績，政府執政的努力是要看成果的。成績可能是個人的，今天考得好、考不好是個人的事情，可是你的成果攸關的是國家。所以我跟你說，我今天沒有要苛責你，可是你去年給我期待滿滿，我在去年3月質詢你的時候，你跟我講年底就會來做法制化，我當然就想那太好了，覺得很受振奮。可是到年底我看沒有，當然我知道你說你很努力，是中央政府不努力，也不能完全怪你，不是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是中央政府不努力，我就跟你說，去年年底我把考卷交上去，老師、教授什麼時候要打分數，我不知道，那不是我……"],["羅委員智強：你的教授真的是懶惰。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不，教授有他的考慮。"],["羅委員智強：中央政府、教授懶惰，你考卷都交了，拖到現在也不……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我的考卷在12月底以前有送。"],["羅委員智強：請教人事長，你再努力一點，請教授不要再睡了，年底前把考卷批出來，好不好？再給你一個年底，好不好？你去年3月跟我講年底，今年3月我再跟你講年底，可以嗎？可不可以？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其實我三不五時都去拜託。"],["羅委員智強：非常好！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我都有持續在做這件事情，因為行政院面對的法案數量也非常多，有固定的排程在處理。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝人事長。拜託人事長，我們一起努力一下，好不好？謝謝你。感謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員。官員跟你說欽佩你、認同你，你也相信，你實在是……","接下來請王義川委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}},{"id":"159434","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159434","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0eff8e19dcccbd4b14aa23c349ee8e693525a0be0b44ec4a3f6c8e88a0e872c475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:59:43 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我知道但是主管機關是你們有關這個涉及國家安全跟重大利益的公務員的特殊查核是由我們人事總署主管"},{"start":190.541,"end":200.433,"text":"那這個剛才所講的這個拒絕的方式跟我現在講的這個有關國家安全重大利益的這個特殊查核辦法它本身"},{"start":201.892,"end":228.052,"text":"有什麼不一樣大概從90幾年我們現在整個特殊查核大概改過17次了因為每一年我們在review看有沒有哪些對象要新增加剛才委員所提的像外交國防跟國家安全有關的相關的機關因為會有所謂的新增加的這些機關進來那每一年我們都會跟考試院同時在檢討"},{"start":229.934,"end":232.277,"text":"簡單講剛才這個拒絕的這些部分這個是普查"},{"start":233.035,"end":262.455,"text":"但是這個特殊查核這個是這個是特殊查核對不對 這針對特定人特殊查核基本上機關收到 戶收到 跟他的秘書有限定對象 不計啦不計你這個辦法裡面有一個附表附表裡面有什麼人 哪一些人去接受這個特殊查核你列了一清二楚一一就不會遭到什麼 不說沒有任何模糊空間它不是普查 它就不普查你就是 所以不公嘛不公 那兩個完全不公所以他們的法令的依據也不一樣嘛"},{"start":263.915,"end":291.121,"text":"剛才王偉有提到說這個進行這樣子的這個現在目前要求這個公職人員不得具有中國大陸身份證件齁這個部分他的法源依據也不一樣啦都是公務員任用法但是一個是剛剛我想這個特殊查核有關國家安全重大利益的這是根據這個公務員任用法的第四條但是有關於不得具有中國大陸身份的這個是依照"},{"start":292.742,"end":293.628,"text":"公務人員用法的第26條"},{"start":295.711,"end":322.92,"text":"的第一項他說有下列情勢之一者不得為公務人員其中的第一款就是未具有未具或喪失中華民國國籍這一條還有這個第二款的這個具中華民國國籍兼具外國國籍但本法另有規定以及你剛剛所講的兩岸人民關係條例這個是不同的法源對不對所以他事實上是有法源依據他不是沒有法源依據對不對進行這樣子的清查是不是"},{"start":323.8,"end":331.38,"text":"清查這公務人員到底有沒有具有外國國籍是不是具有其他國家的身份證件這個是有法源依據的對不對"},{"start":333.528,"end":358.976,"text":"當我們進到公務員服務的時候都是規定都很明確啦就不能有雙重國籍的相關規定這個就是法律依據我剛剛唸了嘛我不用再唸一次嘛公務員任用法跟兩岸人民關係條裡面都有明確的規範嘛所以它是有法律依據它不是沒有法律依據的這個要在這邊讓社會跟所有公務員了解這是有法律依據的這不是說什麼不符合法律保留原則這個是有法律依據的對不對"},{"start":360.011,"end":371.298,"text":"那這個我現在就這個剛剛我們談到這個涉及國際安全跟重大利益的這個公務人員的特殊查核齁針對這個剛才你也有提到齁提到說這個這個特殊查核改了多少次17改啦其實改的是副表對不對這副表裡面的我這邊齁有統計我們這個這個歷年來齁有修正這個副表的部分齁這個這個刪除齁從"},{"start":388.254,"end":412.305,"text":"我看有從到現在目前應該要這個各機關辦理特殊查核植物一覽表這一覽表裡面從這個民國96年到去年113年12月3號做最後一次的修訂那這個植物的這個必須要接受這個特殊查核植物的總數從"},{"start":414.667,"end":434.142,"text":"從1099人到最後一次修正到1328人對不對1328個現在目前的公務人員裡面就1328個人必須接受這個這個特殊特殊查核對特殊查核那裡面有增有減啊有的增到新增100人但是刪除51個人有的有每一次修改都有新增都有刪除"},{"start":435.08,"end":457.93,"text":"那這個我就是想了解 請問這個人事長這樣子的這個調整他每一次修改調整的發動機關是誰是我們人事總署認為需要調整嗎還是哪一個機關謝謝委員給我這個機會這個是每一個機關他自己提出來自己提出來他有進場跟退場"},{"start":458.37,"end":473.429,"text":"那什麼時候我們什麼時候每一個機關可能我今天覺得這樣子那下一個機關是後天覺得這樣子再下一個機關是下個月覺得這樣子我們不可能每天調整啊我們都有一定的一個調整機制到底我們怎麼決定什麼時候要做一次的調整"},{"start":474.17,"end":491.638,"text":"一般來說 有配合的組織調整 那就是調整進場 退場機制是密度最高的只要有組織調整 組織調整組織調整之後 一定要再進去review 看看哪些職位要去調整最後一次113年 這個12月3號是什麼原因調整"},{"start":500.989,"end":502.331,"text":"那個CI 關鍵基礎設施關鍵基礎設施的調整那這個齁我其實"},{"start":511.36,"end":531.943,"text":"比起剛剛所講的拒絕的部分更關心這個國家安全跟特殊重大利益的這個特殊查核這個部分希望說我們這個人事行政總署能夠確實的督促各機關確實辦理那也希望說能夠你們要確實掌握這樣子的查核內容好不好好那接下來"},{"start":533.188,"end":558.291,"text":"接下來的時間我從去年的9月30日跟11月10日都有兩度質詢都有提到我們有關於目前我們所強調的AI內閣有關於我們要讓台灣成為AI智慧島我們公務人員到相關的這些授訊的問題那時候都有跟人事長請教"},{"start":559.452,"end":576.001,"text":"那時候去年9月30我就提出三點要求第一點就是我們AI計畫的成效要定期盤點另外第二個就是說我們AI要列為公務人員的學習的必修課程第三就是AI要納入115年原額評鑑這三個要求裡面"},{"start":582.966,"end":606.806,"text":"我在這邊要先肯定我們人事總署基本上都有開始著手在做有的已經確實進行了有關AI計畫成效的定期盤點我有看到你們在公務人力發展學院的官網上面你們確實有公告有關AI智能訓練的成果每一季、按季有公開"},{"start":609.028,"end":631.368,"text":"這是第一個給你們肯定第二個有關於這個AI列為公務學習必修現在是不是已經列為必修了去年11月已經有把它加入必修了這個部分我也很高興你們能夠接受本席的建議那第三個有關於AI納入115年原額評鑑的部分這個"},{"start":634.611,"end":659.631,"text":"我看這個你們這個115年實施的這個115年辦理所屬二級機關聯合評鑑計畫已經有納入這個AI的公務人力的部分這部分我也基本上可以肯定但是我想進一步了解因為我時間到了我再第一個了解有關於我們AI這個推動實務種子人員課程去年只辦一期總共36個科長參加對不對"},{"start":664.214,"end":675.22,"text":"有三個拿到...為什麼有三個拿不到啊?為什麼有三個拿不到啊?表示這個課期不是說有機課就可以課真的課三十六個課到三十六個大家很認真啊那時候你說今年要辦六期嘛五期都總共一百八十個從二五月開始辦你剛才說六期現在就減一年了經費沒什麼用人家是參與意願的問題嗎經費啦"},{"start":693.109,"end":699.351,"text":"經費,喔經費喔,叫國民弄台語啊?那經費比較不夠所以你本來要辦六期,現在變成五期嘛五期,你剛才說36個,有33個拿到這個"},{"start":713.062,"end":741.621,"text":"AI的認證啦 AI專業認證啦齁但是事實上我們現在國家並沒有這個AI專業認證的執照對不對 制度目前AI專業這個是你們自己設計的沒有沒有 我們請他到AI人工智慧學校去拿的人工智慧學校AI人工智慧學校去拿但是他並不是國家認證的他並不是國家認證的一個專業證照嘛那目前不是那我們自己有沒有打算要建立我們公務人員自己AI的認證體系"},{"start":743.323,"end":758.054,"text":"這部分我會跟樹化部那個黃部長再來討論看看跟國科會啦要跟國科會你們已經有跟國科會申請AI政府經費有跟他申請你們要求他們做這個發展計畫我找我都比你清楚你們已經有拜託國科會"},{"start":759.295,"end":775.821,"text":"去做這個AI政府領航人員發展計畫裡面要規劃建立你們公務人員AI的認證體系那我這個部分我是希望說能夠你們國科會 以我了解國科會到現在還沒有"},{"start":777.601,"end":792.35,"text":"進行還沒開始進行啦齁那這部分我希望我們人事總署能夠再進一步再push國科會齁我們盡快的把一個公務機關裡面AI人才認證的這個機制齁趕快把它建立起來好不好好好謝謝謝謝人事長好謝謝委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":341,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（10時）主席，我們請人事長。"],["主席：有請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早！"],["沈委員發惠：人事長早！剛才包括吳思瑤委員和王鴻薇委員都有在關心，今年2月28日陸委會的新聞稿表示將行文主管機關人事總處，要求依法宣傳並清查公職人員不得具有中國大陸身分證件，這個部分剛才大概都有提到。按照陸委會這個新聞稿看起來，有關這件事情的主管機關應該就是人事總處，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：各主管機關都要做。法律的主管機關是陸委會，它是請我們跟銓敘部發文給所有的……"],["沈委員發惠：有關公務人員不得具有中國大陸身分證件這個部分的主管機關，它提出了人事總處、銓敘部、法務部。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：它是請我們轉發給各個行政機關。"],["沈委員發惠：所以事實上是透過你們這邊轉發的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，我們有轉發。"],["沈委員發惠：剛剛大概都有提到目前是採取具結的方式，是不是？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["沈委員發惠：就是請各個公務……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒簽並沒有罰責，是用鼓勵的方式。"],["沈委員發惠：是鼓勵，但是以具結的方式來進行？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["沈委員發惠：這是一個部分，但是按照公務人員任用法第四條第二項的規定，「前項人員（也就是公務人員）之品德及忠誠，各機關應於任用前辦理查核。必要時，得洽請有關機關協助辦理。其涉及國家安全或重大利益者，得辦理特殊查核」，而且要針對這個特殊查核另定辦法，這就是「涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法」。請問這個查核辦法的主管單位就是人事總處，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會銜考試院……"],["沈委員發惠：這個法令的主管機關就是人事總處，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是我們總處沒有錯。"],["沈委員發惠：這個法令的主管機關是你們。當然不是你們獨立完成的，而是你們必須跟……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一定是調查局，我們會請調查局去……"],["沈委員發惠：我知道你們都要配合，但主管機關是你們嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["沈委員發惠：涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員特殊查核辦法是由人事總處主管，那麼請問剛才說的具結方式跟我現在講的這個查核辦法本身……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那不一樣。"],["沈委員發惠：有什麼不一樣？請你說明給大家瞭解一下。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：從九十幾年以後，整個特殊查核辦法大概改過17次了，因為我們每一年都在review，看有沒有要新增加哪些對象，包括剛才委員所提的像外交、國防和國家安全有關的機關，因為會有新增加的機關進來，每一年我們都會跟考試院同時進行檢討。"],["沈委員發惠：簡單講，剛才說的具結部分是普查，但是這個是特殊查核，是針對特定人。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：特殊查核基本上是機關首長、副首長和他的秘書，有特定對象。"],["沈委員發惠：這個辦法裡面有一個附表，附表裡面對於哪些人必須接受這個特殊查核列得一清二楚，一個都跑不掉，沒有任何模糊空間，只要列在這個附表裡面……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那個不是普查。"],["沈委員發惠：所以不一樣嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不一樣，這兩個完全不同。"],["沈委員發惠：所以他們的法令依據也不一樣。剛才王委員提到現在要求公職人員不得具有中國大陸身分證件，它的法源依據也不一樣，都是公務人員任用法，但我剛剛講的這個有關國家安全或重大利益的特殊查核是根據公務人員任用法第四條，但是有關不得具有中國大陸身分是依照公務人員任用法第二十八條第一項規定的「有下列情事之一者，不得任用為公務人員」，而其中第一款就是「未具或喪失中華民國國籍」，還有第二款的「具中華民國國籍兼具外國國籍。但本法或其他法律另有規定者……」，以及你剛剛講的兩岸人民關係條例，這個是不同的法源，對不對？所以它事實上是有法源依據，不是沒有法源依據，對不對？清查公務人員到底是否具有外國國籍、是否領有其他國家的身分證件是有法源依據的，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：當我們進到公部門服務的時候，規定都很明確，就是不能違反雙重國籍的相關規定。"],["沈委員發惠：這個就是法律依據啊！就我剛剛唸的嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對啊，法律依據。"],["沈委員發惠：就是我剛剛唸的，我不用再唸一次，就是公務人員任用法跟兩岸人民關係條例裡面都有明確的規範嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是！"],["沈委員發惠：所以它是有法律依據，它不是沒有法律依據的！這個要在這邊讓社會和所有公務人員瞭解，這是有法律依據的，這不是說什麼不符合法律保留原則，這個是有法律依據的，對不對？","針對我們剛剛談到的這個涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員的特殊查核，剛才您也有提到這個特殊查核修改了多少次？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：17次。"],["沈委員發惠：其實改的只是附表，對不對？就是附表裡面的。我這邊有統計歷年來修訂的附表，各機關須辦理特殊查核職務一覽表從民國96年到去年（113年）12月3日的最近一次修訂，必須接受特殊查核的職務總數從1,099人，到最近一次修訂是1,328人，目前的公務人員有1,328人必須接受這個特殊查核，過程中有增有減，有時新增100人，但是刪除51人，每一次修改都有新增，同時也有刪除。我想請問人事長的是，每次發動修改、調整的是哪個機關？是人事總處還是哪一個機關認為需要調整？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員給我這個機會說明，這是每一個機關自己提出來的。"],["沈委員發惠：自己提出來的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，它有進場跟退場，所以……"],["沈委員發惠：每一個機關可能我今天覺得這樣子，下一個機關是後天覺得這樣子，再下一個機關是下個月覺得這樣子，我不可能每天調整啊！我們都有一定的調整機制，到底是怎麼決定什麼時候要做一致的調整？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：一般來講，配合組織調整是調整進場、退場密度最高的時候，只要有組織調整……"],["沈委員發惠：組織調整？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，組織調整以後一定要重新review看看哪些職位要去做特殊查核。"],["沈委員發惠：最近一次113年12月3日是因為什麼原因而調整？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是因為CI，也就是關鍵基礎設施……"],["沈委員發惠：好，關鍵基礎設施。","其實比起剛剛說的具結的部分，我更關心這個涉及國家安全或重大利益公務人員的特殊查核，這個部分希望人事行政總處能夠督促各機關確實辦理，也希望你們能夠確實掌握這樣的查核內容，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["沈委員發惠：接下來，我在去年9月30日和11月4日的質詢中兩度提到目前所強調的AI內閣的問題，有關我們要讓臺灣成為AI智慧島，公務人員都要接受相關的訓練，這些我都有跟人事長請教過。去年9月30日我就提出三點要求：第一點是AI計畫的成效要定期盤點，第二個是AI要列為公務人員學習的必修課程，第三是AI要納入115年的員額評鑑。我在這邊要先肯定人事總處，對這三個要求基本上都有著手在做，有的已經確實進行了。有關AI計畫成效的定期盤點，我看到你們確實有在公務人力發展學院的官網上面公告有關AI智能訓練的成果，而且是按季公開，這是第一個要給你們肯定的。第二個，有關於AI列為公務學習必修，現在是不是已經列為必修了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：去年10月。"],["沈委員發惠：對，去年10月。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：已經有把它加入必修的課程。"],["沈委員發惠：加入必修了？這個部分我也很高興你們能夠接受本席的建議。","第三個，有關於AI納入115年員額評鑑的部分，我看115年辦理所屬二級機關員額評鑑計畫，已經有納入AI公務人力的部分，這部分基本上我也給予肯定，但是我想進一步了解，因為我時間到了，我現在第一個想了解有關於我們AI推動實務種子人員課程，去年只辦1期，總共36個科長參加，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，有33個拿到……"],["沈委員發惠：為什麼有3個拿不到？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：表示這個考試不是有去考試就會通過……"],["沈委員發惠：不是考假的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是真的考試。"],["沈委員發惠：是真的考，36個人考，考上33個。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：大家都很認真啦！"],["沈委員發惠：那時候你有說今年要辦6期嘛？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：5期，總共180個，剛好5個月開始辦。"],["沈委員發惠：你去年說6期，現在就少1期了啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是經費不太夠。"],["沈委員發惠：是參與意願的問題嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：經費啦！"],["沈委員發惠：經費喔？被國民黨刪掉了！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是經費比較不夠。"],["沈委員發惠：經費比較不夠，所以你本來要辦6期，現在變成剩5期嘛。你剛才有說36個當中，有33個拿到AI的專業認證，但是事實上，現在國家並沒有AI專業認證的執照制度，對不對？目前AI專業執照制度，這個是你們自己設計的認證制度嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，我們請他到AIA（人工智慧學校）去拿的。"],["沈委員發惠：AIA（人工智慧學校）去拿，但是它並不是國家認可……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：它有提供認證的。"],["沈委員發惠：但是它並不是國家認證的專業證照嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前不是。"],["沈委員發惠：我們自己有沒有打算要建立我們公務人員自己AI的認證體系？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這部分我會跟數發部黃部長再來討論看看。"],["沈委員發惠：跟國科會啦，要跟國科會，你們已經有跟國科會申請AI政府……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：經費有跟他們申請。"],["沈委員發惠：你們要求他們做發展計畫，這個我都比你還清楚，你們已經有拜託國科會去做AI政府領航人員發展計畫，裡面要規劃建立你們公務人員AI的認證體系，這個部分以我的了解，國科會到現在也還沒開始進行，這部分我希望人事總處能夠再進一步push國科會，我們儘快把公務機關裡面AI人才認證的機制建立起來，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["沈委員發惠：謝謝人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝沈發惠委員。","接下來請羅智強委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}},{"id":"159433","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159433","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0b9995ce8a0e4f84156c3f89dc79e7a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我發現昭緯其實對你特別友善因為我們今天的質詢時間少了兩分鐘所以可以感覺到我們昭緯是對你是友善的一個狀態我想說大家都很關心台灣的能源政策感覺像電價上漲似乎已經在箭在弦上可是我覺得台灣對於整個用電用到哪裡去我們也非常非常的關心"},{"start":46.077,"end":61.219,"text":"可是我發現說我們在找一些資料的時候我想問一下部長這邊因為我們想要知道說台灣前30大的用電大戶的相關的資料這個部分可不可以提供"},{"start":64.436,"end":81.982,"text":"報告委員 限於個資法的部分我們有困難個資法的部分不能夠提供用電大戶的名單是這樣子嗎 確定嗎連我們如果要質詢也都不能夠有這樣子的一個狀態嗎"},{"start":85.454,"end":100.864,"text":"對於這個產業競爭的部分他用的度數多少這個我們很難提供Ranking的部分我想沒有問題Ranking的部分沒有問題嘛前30大用電的部分沒有問題可是如果要知道說他們用電的種類數量"},{"start":102.705,"end":131.277,"text":"可能就會有一些問題對不對OK那我們之後我們辦公室會直接會跟能源署這邊要求資料因為按照能源管理法的時候我們應該要有最真實相關的一個掌握OK好那我們接下來因為為什麼會提到這個部分因為當大家都在關心台積電到美國去投資1000億這件事情的時候很多人講到國安的問題或等等可是我從產業上面直接得到一些訊息的時候他們很多很直覺的反應跟我講說是因為台灣的電他們怕不夠"},{"start":132.057,"end":154.394,"text":"所以到國外去設廠那這當然都有很多不同的理由那我只想要請教一下部長這邊就是去年2024年的時候台積電的用電量佔台灣整體發電量的百分之多少大概是8%左右"},{"start":156.745,"end":172.056,"text":"8%嗎因為我看媒體有些是寫9%那我按照那個標準普爾他的一個國際報告的時候他認為說電力供應逐漸成為台積電的信用風險那他提到的數字是在"},{"start":173.817,"end":200.312,"text":"2023年的時候大概是8.4%啦那預計到2030年的時候就是會佔到台灣總體發電量的15.6%比重不斷的升高所以這也是為什麼其實我在第一線的時候很多台積電裡面的人他們第一個直接反應就是說因為電量不夠所以他們要到國外去投資那我這邊我也想請教因為我這邊也有一些不同的訊息"},{"start":201.653,"end":227.515,"text":"就是他提到一個點就是說台積電現在每天到夏季的時候下午用電尖峰的時候如果台電的備載容量有點不夠的時候呢台積電馬上就會被要求降載然後台積電的沒關係等一下你再回應一下然後他們就直接講說台積電他們自己的一個柴油發電機幾乎天天是火力全開長達半年的時間有沒有這樣的一個狀態"},{"start":229.073,"end":249.055,"text":"報告委員,你是新竹市的委員,你應該非常清楚台積電的訊息,台積電半導體廠是不能夠降載的。所以這個就是我要特別提的問題,是因為地方一直在傳這件事情。我覺得可能是有人提供錯誤的訊息給你。"},{"start":250.416,"end":279.583,"text":"理解所以說我這邊我要特別提到就是說我們這邊對於電的部分是怎麼樣子我覺得我們這邊很關切所以從你上來的時候我們就不斷在講到怎麼樣在優化台灣綠電的一個產出所以當我們之前特別問到一個台澎電纜的部分因為它現在有200MHz的一個電纜線可是它實際能夠用的部分非常非常的低只有80MHz那我們在想這個部分有沒有辦法把它提高"},{"start":281.464,"end":301.275,"text":"報導委員我們現在當然有一個新的計畫我們大概澎湖有一些地區他們可以設置太陽能光電也可以設置陸域的風電那這個全部是綠電我們可以利用現有的海纜把它送回來"},{"start":302.456,"end":321.472,"text":"這個大概會有將近100多MW這個對我們來講 因為澎湖來到新竹其實也蠻近的所以我想這是一個我們在啟動新的計畫的一部分當然現在我們還在抱怨許可我相信我們對綠電的增設是不遺餘力的"},{"start":326.016,"end":347.372,"text":"因為我們增設綠電的這個部分主要還是要滿足台灣半導體業它的需求那針對這個部分的時候我想另外再衍生一個問題其實就是之前很多委員也都很關心就是呂宋經濟走廊這個計畫那因為之前是拜登的一個計畫現在川普上來之後這個計畫還繼續執行嗎"},{"start":351.039,"end":352.3,"text":"報告委員這個計畫因為這個美國政府的這個改變那這個計畫我們必須要得到這個"},{"start":361.325,"end":386.144,"text":"AIT然後這個菲律賓的這個美國駐菲律賓他們的這些關鍵人物的這個支持所以我們不是在旅送經濟走廊上面的份子我們只是想要參與那因為我知道去年的時候包括國發會主委其實也都直接表示台灣是要參與在旅送經濟走廊這個計畫當中很具體的表示出來"},{"start":386.724,"end":414.25,"text":"那你這邊也某一個部分參與那我想知道一個狀態是這個計畫影不影響到我們在呂宋重電它可不可以分開來獨立處理基本上這是兩個不同的計畫我們希望讓台灣的廠商可以到菲律賓去重電主要是我們希望光電業者因為台灣這個市場太小了它必須要走到世界但是最近的世界就是在菲律賓跟日本"},{"start":414.81,"end":443.003,"text":"所以我們是協助他們能夠將他在台灣製造特別是這個台灣製造的光電是飛鴻供應鏈裡面非常重要的一部分理解所以我想在這個民主同盟的這個光電的需求台灣的業者可以扮演非常強大的這個貢獻所以我們幫助他能夠到菲律賓去種電所以我們會去幫他談到一些可以當地快速落地快速賺錢的這個方法"},{"start":444.264,"end":464.317,"text":"OK 兩個部分所以呂宋經濟走廊這個部分不影響到你提的一個呂宋重電的這個計畫對不對那呂宋重電計畫我上一次在質詢的時候我也曾經問過你一個狀態是在呂宋這邊發電的狀態它的碳權有沒有辦法為台灣企業所使用你那時候提到說因為必須要有電纜"},{"start":465.257,"end":487.738,"text":"才能夠滿足R100的需求那因為現在還有R130的問題然後我看到你們提到報告當中提到一個運電船的這個問題我先不考慮它的成本我想先知道運電船假設運到台灣因為你剛剛有提到說年底日本這邊有就是成本會降低到一度一塊多那這個狀態的時候用運電船運到台灣的電"},{"start":491.161,"end":506.428,"text":"碳泉能不能使用可以可以使用那這個部分那個船本身也是綠電的電池的話電動船就可以如果是燒油的那就變成灰電所以說如果是"},{"start":509.438,"end":522.313,"text":"運電船運到台灣來的電這探權還是可以由台灣的企業這邊來直接使用他這個部分之後有再更細的資料再給本席一下我這邊另外要問一下我們大阪市博會這邊的進度"},{"start":524.471,"end":546.082,"text":"有沒有落後報告委員沒有落後因為那個我看整個新聞出來說目前整個國外的一個國際場館只有完成不到20%剩下不到一個月要開展那我在想說關心台灣這邊因為我們花了20億在大阪市博會這邊那進度是不是能夠如期開張"},{"start":547.843,"end":565.258,"text":"我們現在是按照進度在進行啦這部分詳細的話我是不是請我們署長跟你報告因為時間的關係請事後再跟本辦公室做一個清楚的報告好不好那我最後想問一個因為你在那個你的口頭報告當中的時候有特別提到了一個軍工的一個產業"},{"start":566.519,"end":582.875,"text":"在國家防衛任性扮演的角色當中你特別提到了一個就是無人機的一個費用供應鏈就無人機國家隊的問題那我想問一下目前這個無人機國家隊他是用商規軍用還是直接變成軍規軍用"},{"start":584.733,"end":603.623,"text":"我們目前所啟動的是軍規商用所以目前是用了軍規商用的部分可是商用跟軍用是他就在一線之隔 只是用法上面的部分200公里為界限 200公里可以飛200公里以上的叫軍規軍用"},{"start":606.085,"end":626.243,"text":"軍規但是商用的是可以飛200公里以內的是叫軍規商用所以基本上目前你會把這個無人機這個部分放在軍工產業這邊就是因為它是軍規商用所以對台灣來講的時候如果說我們無人機要用變成軍規軍用其實也是很容易的對不對防禦上面沒有問題"},{"start":626.883,"end":650.633,"text":"OK理解那針對無人艇的部分因為你在這邊的時候針對無人艇的部分目前我們還沒有完成一個國家隊的一個建立可是無人艇的部分在整個軍規軍用的部分某個部分也很近那針對這個部分我想說之後再給本辦公室一個清楚的一個資料好不好因為時間的關係是的好謝謝"},{"start":652.215,"end":668.599,"text":"政委員我主席做一項宣告因為今天登記發言的委員非常多那為了在郭部長離開前讓所有委員都可以質詢到他所以我們就是減少發言的時間不是對郭部長特別好而是對本會以及所有委員好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":268,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時4分）謝謝主席，請郭智輝部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長好。我發現召委對你特別友善，因為今天的質詢時間少了2分鐘，所以可以感覺到召委對你是友善的狀態。我想大家都很關心臺灣的能源政策，感覺電價上漲似乎已經箭在弦上。我覺得臺灣對於整個用電用到哪裡去也非常、非常地關心，可是我發現我們在找一些資料的時候……我想問一下部長，因為我們想要知道臺灣前30大的用電大戶相關資料，這個部分可不可以提供？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，限於個資法，我們有困難。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為個資法不能夠提供用電大戶的名單，是這樣子嗎？確定嗎？連我們要質詢，也都不能夠提供嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：對於產業競爭的部分，它用的度數多少，我們很難提供。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這個部分……"],["郭部長智輝：但是ranking的部分我想沒有問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：ranking的部分沒有問題嘛。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：前30大用電的名單沒有問題，可是要知道他們用電的種類、數量可能就會有一些問題，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，之後我們辦公室會直接跟能源署要求資料，因為按照能源管理法，你們應該要有相關的掌握。為什麼會提到這個部分？因為當大家都在關心台積電到美國去投資1,000億這件事情的時候，很多人講到國安的問題等等，可是我從產業上面直接得到一些訊息，他們很多很直覺的反應，跟我說是因為他們怕臺灣的電不夠，所以到國外去設廠，這當然有很多不同的理由。我只想要請教一下部長，去（2024）年台積電的用電量占臺灣整體發電量的百分之多少？"],["郭部長智輝：大概是8%左右。"],["鄭委員正鈐：8%嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為我看媒體有些是寫9%。按照標準普爾的國際報告，它認為電力供應逐漸成為台積電的信用風險，它提到的數字，2023年大概是8.4%，預計到2030年會占臺灣總體發電量的15.6%，比重不斷地升高，所以這也是為什麼我在第一線的時候，很多台積電裡面的人第一個直覺反應就是說因為電量不夠，所以他們要到國外去投資。我也想請教，因為我也有一些不同的訊息提到一個點，就是台積電現在每到夏季下午用電尖峰的時候，如果台電的備載容量有點不夠，台積電馬上就會被要求降載，然後他們說台積電自己的柴油發電機幾乎是天天火力全開，長達半年的時間，有沒有這樣的狀態？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，你是新竹市的委員，應該非常清楚台積電的這個訊息，台積電半導體廠是不能夠降載的。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，所以這就是我要特別提的原因，因為地方一直在傳這件事情。"],["郭部長智輝：您剛才所提的這個指教，我覺得可能是有人提供錯誤的訊息給你。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。我要特別提到，我們對於電的部分是很關切的，所以從你上來之後就不斷在講怎麼樣再優化臺灣綠電的產出，所以我們之前特別問到臺澎電纜，因為現在有200MW的電纜線，可是實際能夠用的部分非常、非常地低，只有80MW，這個部分有沒有辦法把它提高？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在當然有一個新的計畫，澎湖有一些地區可以設置太陽能光電，也可以設置陸域的風電，這些全部是綠電，我們可以利用現有的海纜把它送回來，大概會有將近一百多MW。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。"],["郭部長智輝：對我們來講，因為澎湖到新竹其實也滿近的，這是我們在啟動新計畫的一部分，當然現在我們還在報院許可。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。"],["郭部長智輝：我相信我們對綠電的增設是不遺餘力的，因為增設綠電主要還是要滿足臺灣半導體業的需求。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好，針對這個部分，我想再另外延伸一個問題，之前很多委員也都很關心呂宋經濟走廊這個計畫，因為這之前是拜登的一個計畫，現在這個計畫在川普上來之後還繼續執行嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，這個計畫因為美國政府的改變，我們必須要得到AIT、美國駐菲律賓的這些關鍵人物支持。我們不是在呂宋經濟走廊上的一分子……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["郭部長智輝：我們只是在外部……"],["鄭委員正鈐：想要參與。因為我知道去年包括國發會主委也都直接表示，臺灣要參與呂宋經濟走廊這個計畫，很具體地表示出來，你在某一個部分也會參與。我想知道的是，這個計畫影不影響我們在呂宋種電？它可不可以分開來獨立處理？"],["郭部長智輝：基本上這是兩個不同的計畫。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。"],["郭部長智輝：我們希望讓臺灣的廠商可以到菲律賓去種電，主要是我們希望光電業者……因為臺灣這個市場太小，它必須要走到世界，而最近的就是菲律賓跟日本，所以我們是協助他們能夠在臺灣製造，特別是臺灣製造的光電是非紅供應鏈裡面非常重要的一部分。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["郭部長智輝：我想在民主同盟的光電需求上，臺灣的業者可以有非常強大的貢獻，所以我們幫助它能夠到菲律賓去種電，也會去幫它談到一些可以在當地快速落地、快速賺錢的方法。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，兩個部分，所以呂宋經濟走廊這個部分不影響到你提的呂宋種電計畫，對不對？有關呂宋種電計畫，我上一次在質詢的時候也曾經問過你，在呂宋發電的狀態，它的碳權有沒有辦法為臺灣企業所使用？你那時候提到必須要有電纜，才能夠滿足RE100的需求，因為現在還有RE30的問題，然後我看到你們提出的報告當中有提到運電船的問題，我先不考慮它的成本，我想先知道假設運電船運到臺灣來，因為你剛剛有提到年底日本的成本會降低到一度一塊多，那在這個狀態的時候用運電船運到臺灣的電，碳權能不能使用？"],["郭部長智輝：可以。"],["鄭委員正鈐：可以使用喔？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，這個部分……"],["郭部長智輝：那個船本身也是綠電的電池、是電動船就可以，如果是燒油的，那就變成廢電。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，如果是運電船運到臺灣的電，碳權還是可以由臺灣的企業直接使用。這個部分之後有更詳細的資料再給本席。","我另外要問一下大阪世博會的進度，有沒有落後？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，沒有落後。"],["鄭委員正鈐：沒有落後喔！因為我看新聞，目前整個國際場館只完成不到20%，剩下不到1個月就要開展，我想關心臺灣的進度，因為我們花了20億在大阪世博會，進度是不是能夠如期開展？"],["郭部長智輝：我們現在是按照進度在進行，詳細的部分我是不是請署長跟你報告？"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為時間的關係，請事後再跟本辦公室清楚的報告，好不好？"],["郭部長智輝：好的，沒問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我最後想問一個，因為你在口頭報告當中有特別提到了軍工產業，在國家防衛韌性扮演的角色當中，你特別提到了無人機的非紅供應鏈，就是無人機國家隊的問題。我想問一下，目前無人機國家隊是商規軍用，還是直接變成軍規軍用？"],["郭部長智輝：我們目前所啟動的是軍規商用。"],["鄭委員正鈐：軍規商用？"],["郭部長智輝：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，所以目前是軍規商用的部分，可是商用跟軍用就一線之隔，只是用法上面的部分……"],["郭部長智輝：以200公里為界線，可以飛200公里以上的叫軍規軍用；可以飛200公里以內的，叫軍規商用。"],["鄭委員正鈐：基本上，目前你會把無人機這個部分放在軍工產業，就是因為它是軍規商用，所以對臺灣來講，如果無人機要變成軍規軍用，其實也是很容易的，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：防禦上面沒有問題。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK、理解。關於無人艇的部分，目前我們還沒有完成國家隊的建立，可是無人艇在軍規軍用，某個部分也很近，針對這個部分，我想之後再給本辦公室清楚的資料，好不好？因為時間的關係。"],["郭部長智輝：是的。"],["主席：謝謝。鄭委員，主席作以下宣告：因為今天登記發言的委員非常多，為了在郭部長離開前讓所有委員都可以質詢到，所以減少發言的時間，不是對郭部長特別好，而是對本會以及所有委員，謝謝。","現在請楊瓊瓔委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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最近川普的關稅這樣造成很多國家的困擾尤其他的貿易夥伴但是美國財政部長特別強調4月2日之前如果有人來溝通的話或許可以避免這個制裁那我問一下我們這邊有沒有打算去溝通啊"},{"start":43.079,"end":62.394,"text":"行政部門也好,或者是企業部門,我相信在溝通的管道上應該是你會不會參與?當然我沒有去參與到美國去溝通這件事情但是我們國內的部門,我們的行政部門一直對於我們會持續的關注有沒有可能在4月2號之前去參與溝通?去溝通,4月2號之前"},{"start":66.589,"end":88.305,"text":"這個我沒有參與但是關稅的部分後端的部分跟你有關係你知道為什麼嗎因為對等關稅的部分平均對等關稅的部分還是偏高主要是農產品的部分我們相對於比較高的情況底下我們基本上在美國跟台灣之間我們還是有不一樣的地方我們還是偏高偏高的部分是要調整的話"},{"start":88.925,"end":104.81,"text":"那我們要從哪邊來做調整呢那調整對等關稅的話有的我們高有的他們低有的是他們低我們有我們的高那是調他們的還是調我們的譬如講以這個汽車關稅來說美國的關稅是2.5我們是17.5會有沒有可能我們17.5從對等關稅來說變成2.5有沒有可能"},{"start":109.239,"end":124.984,"text":"跟委員報告這個到底對等關稅未來會怎麼樣實施以及第一個他是不是對特定國家或者是特定項目這個都還不明確但是也跟委員報告我們也進行了相關的盤點我們的汽車17.5的關稅但是我們從美國進口的是303億台幣但是我們出口到美國的大概只有30億也就是換言之我們是出進口他的多進口他的少而且我們都是1000CC"},{"start":139.849,"end":154.73,"text":"對還有量的問題啦所以這個部分基本上如果我們汽車製造業本來就比較弱沒有錯但是你保護一些很少的這一個汽車工業的話那相對而言我們進口很多的部分"},{"start":155.231,"end":181.643,"text":"那裡頭就牽扯到一個問題啊關稅到底有沒有對等的問題啊最後還是關稅對等的問題就如同他們農產品我們進來比較多以蘋果來說我們進了蘋果的關稅20%但是99%蘋果都進來的但是只有一%的部分是本土產而已啊那這個部分就我們關稅的部分農產品的部分比較高我們是不是有要調整的空間啊我是說你如果進行盤點的話你即便還沒有參與你至少要yearly嘛你要準備起來放嘛對不對"},{"start":182.703,"end":190.827,"text":"開始著手進行了沒有對我們這個部分有行政院有一個專案工作小組我們都有參與你有參與嘛這個就是有參與嘛所以有在面臨這個關稅調整的問題嘛對不對部長"},{"start":195.096,"end":197.418,"text":"黃小米的這個部分的優惠關稅到3月底結束是會延續還是停止"},{"start":216.952,"end":237.952,"text":"黃小玉這個相關的關稅的一個條約因為事實上除了為了穩定物價除了還黃小玉還有其他大眾的物資大眾物資不管關稅貨物稅還有營業稅的這個條件會在行政院的穩定物價小組裡面來討論不是三月底已經快到了啊到底是會停止還是延後你們都沒有開會嗎行政院在下週就會開會討論下週什麼時候開"},{"start":242.442,"end":266.258,"text":"3月25號會開會好 3月25號開會的時候決定要不要延長嗎那你認為是不是要延長因為CPI的部分國內以後接下來電費可能會調漲啊關稅的問題也可能會造成CPI的增加啊那現在雖然俄烏之間的談判現在開始了但是問題是輸入型的也可能會造成其他的因素造成CPI增加所以說你也有看法怎麼樣"},{"start":267.058,"end":291.183,"text":"是委員您說的各項因素在那個物價督導小組裡面都會去討論不管是國發會經濟部經營業部都會去做這個相關的你現在沒有個人的看法那我再問你因為不確定的因素實在是太多了央行上週的報告總共57頁當中有提到35次的不確定的字眼這不確定的字眼來說的話以最近常常有一些人提到說我們的這個超額稅收"},{"start":295.645,"end":309.279,"text":"這個3000多億中央的部分3757億的這個部分啊要拿去普發現金一億啊這可是萬萬不可啊因為變數這麼多的情況底下可以拿去發現金嗎然後那個部長還說還債還有沒有其他的方法"},{"start":314.244,"end":332.416,"text":"跟委員報告我們的稅路的情形如果優於預期的話不舉債多還債然後有剩下到稅計剩餘要怎麼樣運用第一個我們必須要考慮我們的財政穩健還有保有財政的韌性那它在運用的時候必須要考慮國家長遠整體的發展如同剛剛委員所說的國際的政經體制有相當的不確定性"},{"start":344.804,"end":365.453,"text":"總預算的關係因為財富緩緩的關係我們的星期預算了2527億不能動資加總起來漢不啷噹有超過6000億之多啊但是你的稅基盈餘的部分在114年的時候預算提出來的時候剩下158億相對於112年的累積的剩餘是7044億的情況底下你是不是應該先放在稅基剩餘裡頭比較有彈性啊 部長"},{"start":366.874,"end":386.591,"text":"而且您剛剛說的7000多億已經花掉剩下158億啊我知道脫貧運算的關係啊所以說你是不是排二體的部分是應該先放在稅計剩餘嘛接下來才還債嘛這樣才有彈性嘛不是嗎接下來我們要執行信息機會才有得用啊我們先還債了然後再放到稅計剩餘什麼比例"},{"start":391.034,"end":398.378,"text":"現在要等到決算出來才能夠確定剛剛也有提到一個問題現在股市的不確定因為很高但是以就目前為止我們現在財政部所國安基金的規模大概是5000億"},{"start":412.467,"end":416.05,"text":"那五千億國安基金成立的時候 你知道台灣的市值 台股市值多少嗎那時候多少你知道嗎 成立的時候五千億 那時候台股是八兆而已啦現在的台股市值多少 七十兆 還是停留在五千億啊 夠嗎"},{"start":432.863,"end":440.749,"text":"你依照這個國安基金的設置條例當中國安基金立場進來8次現在資金規模越來越高你覺得5000真的夠嗎這個部分其實我們會隨時關注這個問題隨時關注就要修改這個設置條例隨時關注對這個是需要改條例的"},{"start":452.598,"end":472.382,"text":"所以說要評估一下是不是要調高嘛是的沒有錯吧五千億不夠嘛另外一個部分有關稅金的部分部長最近有一個消息是說要四月份大查稅包括餐飲美髮這個能飲店有沒有"},{"start":474.469,"end":494.14,"text":"這個部分對於基增的查核、稅務的查核是每年的例行的一個工作許南市啟動大查稅不是一個基增嗎?有沒有?沒有,我看那個署長在那邊搖頭,你就說沒有就好啦人心惶惶部長,你回答啦"},{"start":496.145,"end":515.46,"text":"不是大查稅沒有大查稅對你就是要這樣反映所有的營業稅在113年的時候就超徵616億你還在大查稅你要查大企業中企業你查這種小企業小商家還不是小企業是微型還不是微型還是細微型的這種時間點你們就要開始否認"},{"start":517.942,"end":534.751,"text":"有人在炒作嘛 不是嗎所以這個部分我覺得那個產生部你們要反應要稍微快一點好 謝謝委員接下來我還有一個部分因為這個房租的關係房租的關係在從你們110年開始租屋補貼之後我們就看到110年開始1112 113連續好幾年"},{"start":543.695,"end":557.684,"text":"房租租金的CPI年增率大幅成長這大幅成長看起來是內政部的事情但是財政部有針對房東的專案檢查問一下現在檢查幾戶了為規律多少這個詳細的數字我是不是請署長來做說明來 署長重點"},{"start":563.53,"end":571.054,"text":"報告委員 我們三次加起來大概才6053件那補的3億多那我們現在還在進行一個113年度 也為期兩年現在還在進行當中現在600"},{"start":578.803,"end":599.475,"text":"現在是110年到112年那有沒有違規違規多少我現在看看違章的部分我沒有單獨的統計數字但是違章的稅額加起來的話違章的稅額加起來大概有我要算一下100"},{"start":600.396,"end":623.304,"text":"但五百多億五百多萬 五百多萬 對不起我聽到五百多億我也猜到另外一個部分 署長我跟妳建議一下因為現在有從源頭應該也要查去除了房東之外有一些台灣租屋房 租租屋 一租房這些東西有沒有帳其實從這邊也可以看到出來的數據"},{"start":624.884,"end":648.25,"text":"這源頭管理的問題接下來目標就是要實株登陸目標是要實株登陸要查這個用意其實要達到這個目標跟內政部來進行合作啦 好不好最後那個部長我要再用一點時間我要問一下那個台九的董事長那部長你也留著一下你們現在已經有開始傾向於反傾銷的調查嘛"},{"start":650.526,"end":656.836,"text":"那反起銷的調查開始之後呢我們也看到主要部分一個競爭不公平反起銷的調查"},{"start":658.431,"end":682.499,"text":"對岸惡意補貼35億來傾銷傾銷來侵佔我們的整個市佔率台酒市佔率現在不到50%然後10罐啤酒6罐是從中國進來同時他在混淆視聽標示不明好 第一點這個標示不明我問一下財政部的看法要不要修正酒類標示的管理辦法把這個產地跟品牌的標籤把它同等大小有沒有可能部長請回答"},{"start":683.119,"end":707.19,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分我們正在研議看要不要做一個更明確的可以知道它的產地是哪裡而不是讓那個標示上面混淆了這個交費者所以說比例上的調整是有可能的嗎我們再來考慮這個部分要怎麼做這個方向好這是第一個第二個部分如果說地方政府地方政府不講話萬事就平安了這種情況底下不積極作為"},{"start":710.029,"end":734.127,"text":"那我問一下財政部難道也做事不管嗎你們有沒有可能專案稽查我們應該會有考核吧考核是另外一個行政手段嘛專案稽查才有實質的效果嘛有沒有考慮專案稽查跟委員報告目前的查核都是地方政府他們會到各個賣場可是如果是依照你們的條文當中是各個縣市都有類似這種情況呢"},{"start":735.748,"end":748.959,"text":"那不是中央政府要有所作為嗎所以我們每年都有頒布那個菸酒茶器的專案計畫難道是另外一回事啦就專案啦聽不懂我的意思這種要遏止這種亂象啦部長"},{"start":754.365,"end":768.085,"text":"我們會對機優的給予表揚但是對於做得不夠好的我們看有什麼樣的方式來讓他們要重視這個事情這是你平常應該做的另外兒要做應該做專案稽查部長好好考慮一下"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":387,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時1分）主席，有請莊部長。"],["主席：請財政部莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：部長，最近川普的關稅戰造成很多國家的困擾，尤其它的貿易夥伴，但是美國的財政部長也特別強調，4月2號之前，如果有人來溝通的話，或許可以避免制裁。我問一下，我們有沒有打算去溝通啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：行政部門或者是企業部門也好，我相信在溝通的管道上應該是有的。"],["郭委員國文：你會不會參與？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，我沒有參與到美國去溝通這件事情……"],["郭委員國文：你也沒有被徵詢嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：但是我們國內的部分，我們行政部門會一直持續的關注美國所放出來的對等關稅……"],["郭委員國文：對啦！有沒有可能在4月2號之前去參與溝通？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個我沒有參與。"],["郭委員國文：你沒有參與，但是關稅後端的部分跟你有關係，你知道為什麼嗎？因為平均對等關稅的部分我們還是偏高，主要是農產品的部分，我們相對比較高的情況底下，基本上，在美國跟臺灣之間，我們還是有不一樣的地方，但我們還是偏高。而偏高的部分要調整的話，我們要從哪邊來做調整呢？調整對等關稅，有的是我們高，有的是他們低，有時是他們的低，我們的高，那是調他們的，還是調我們的？譬如以汽車關稅來說，美國的關稅是2.5，我們是17.5，從對等關稅來說，有沒有可能我們從17.5成2.5？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，到底對等關稅未來會怎麼樣實施，以及它是不是對特定國家或者是特定項目，這個都還不明確。但是跟委員報告，我們也進行了相關的盤點，我們汽車17.5的關稅，但是我們從美國進口的是303億臺幣，我們出口到美國的大概只有30億，換言之，我們是進口它的多，出口它的少，而且我們都是1,000cc以下的沙灘車……"],["郭委員國文：對，還有量的問題啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：所以這個部分，基本上，它到我們國內……"],["郭委員國文：因為我們汽車製造業本來就比較弱，沒有錯，但是你保護一些很少的汽車工業的話，相對而言，我們進口很多的部分裡頭就牽扯到一個問題，就是關稅到底有沒有對等，最終還是關稅對等的問題。就如同他們的農產品，我們進來比較多，以蘋果來說，我們進了蘋果的關稅20%，99%蘋果都進來的，但只有1%部分是本土產的而已。就我們關稅在農產品的部分比較高，我們是不是有要調整的空間啊？我意思是說，你如果進行盤點的話，即便還沒有參與，你至少要準備，要準備起來放，對不對？開始著手進行了沒？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，我們這個部分……"],["郭委員國文：有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：有，行政院有一個專案工作小組，我們都有參與。"],["郭委員國文：這個就是有參與，所以你們有在面對關稅調整的問題嘛，對不對？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：目前我們是在盤點……"],["郭委員國文：有沒有在因應？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們是在盤點，關稅它那邊談了之後，我們這邊的衝擊會是哪一個產業，我們是在做這個。"],["郭委員國文：對，我就是要問這個，你就要講出來，國人才會安心嘛！好，因為關稅的關係，我再問你一個問題，黃小玉這個部分的優惠關稅到3月底結束，是會延續還是停止？"],["莊部長翠雲：黃小玉相關關稅的一個條例……事實上為了穩定物價，除了黃小玉還有其他大宗的物資……"],["郭委員國文：對，因為CPI的關係……"],["莊部長翠雲：大宗物資，不管關稅、貨物稅，還有營業稅的調整……"],["郭委員國文：對，關稅、貨物稅、營業稅。"],["莊部長翠雲：會在行政院的穩定物價小組裡面來討論，不管是……"],["郭委員國文：可是3月底已經快到了啊，到底是會停止還是延後，你們都沒有開會嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：行政院在下週就會開會討論。"],["郭委員國文：下週什麼時候開？"],["莊部長翠雲：3月25號會開會。"],["郭委員國文：好，3月25號開會決定要不要延長，那你認為是不是要延長？因為CPI的部分，國內以後接下來電費可能會調漲，關稅的問題可能也可能會造成CPI的增加，雖然俄烏之間的談判現在開始了，但問題是輸入型的也可能有其他的因素造成CPI增加，所以你的看法怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，您說的各項因素，在物價督導小組裡面都會去討論，不管是國發會、經濟部以及農業部……"],["郭委員國文：所以你現在沒有個人的看法？"],["莊部長翠雲：都會去做相關的評估分析。"],["郭委員國文：好，你現在沒有個人的看法，那我再問你，因為不確定的因素實在是太多了，央行上週的報告總共57頁，當中有提到35次「不確定」的字眼啦！以最近常常有一些人提到我們的超額稅收，關於中央部分3,757億這個部分要拿去普發現金1億，我認為是萬萬不可啊，因為變數這麼多的情況底下，可以拿去發現金嗎？部長，除了還債，還有沒有其他的方法？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們歲入的情形如果優於預期的話，不舉債、多還債，然後有剩下的歲計賸餘要怎麼樣運用？第一個，我們必須要考慮我們的財政穩健，還有保有財政的韌性，它在運用時必須考慮國家長遠的整體發展。"],["郭委員國文：對。"],["莊部長翠雲：如同剛剛委員所說的，國際的政經情勢有相當的……"],["郭委員國文：我的意思是要保留彈性嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，有相當的不確定性。"],["郭委員國文：你剛才講的保留彈性就很關鍵，針對這剩下的3,757億，還有今年度因為總預算的關係、財劃法的關係，我們新興預算的2,527億不能動支，加總起來夯不啷噹超過六千億之多啊！但是在歲計盈餘的部分，114年預算提出來的時候只剩下158億，相對於112年累積賸餘7,044億的情況底下，你是不是應該先放在歲計賸餘裡頭比較有彈性啊？部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：而且您剛剛說的七千多億也已經用掉，所以沒有這麼多……"],["郭委員國文：剩下158億，我知道是特別預算的關係啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：所以……"],["郭委員國文：所以priority的部分是不是應該先放在歲計賸餘嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["郭委員國文：接下來才是還債，這樣才有彈性，不是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，我們先還債……"],["郭委員國文：接下來我們要執行新興計畫才有得用啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們先還債，然後再放到歲計賸餘裡面。"],["郭委員國文：比例呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：什麼比例？"],["郭委員國文：現在目標的歲計賸餘最後是多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：現在要等到決算出來才能夠確定。"],["郭委員國文：所以還是要放在歲計賸餘比較有彈性嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：比較有彈性，為國家發展來做考量。"],["郭委員國文：如果是這樣子，剛剛也有提到一個問題，現在因為股市的不確定性很高，就目前為止，現在財政部國安基金的規模大概是5,000億，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，目前依照條例是這樣的。"],["郭委員國文：5,000億，那國安基金成立的時候，你知道臺股市值多少嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：現在……"],["郭委員國文：那時候多少，你知道嗎？成立的時候，那時候臺股是8兆而已啦。"],["莊部長翠雲：8兆。"],["郭委員國文：對，現在的臺股市值多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：現在是超過70兆。"],["郭委員國文：對，那還是停留在5,000億，夠嗎？依照國安基金設置條例，國安基金歷年進場8次，現在資金規模越來越高，你覺得5,000億真的夠嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：其實我們會隨時關注這部分的問題。"],["郭委員國文：隨時關注。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["郭委員國文：隨時關注就是要修改這個設置條例，隨時關注……"],["莊部長翠雲：對，這個是需要修改條例的。"],["郭委員國文：對，所以要評估一下，看是不是要調高。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["郭委員國文：沒有錯，5,000億不夠嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：另外，有關於稅金的部分。部長，最近有一個消息，4月份要大查稅，包括餐飲、美髮及冷飲店，有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：稽徵稅務的查核是每年的例行工作……"],["郭委員國文：顯然是啟動大查稅，看起來不是稽徵嘛，有沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個……"],["郭委員國文：沒有？我看署長在旁邊搖頭，你就說沒有就好了啊，造成人心惶惶。部長，你回答啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：不是大查稅……"],["郭委員國文：沒有大查稅，對！你就是要這樣的反應嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["郭委員國文：所有的營業稅在113年就超徵616億，你還在大查稅？要查就查大企業、中企業，查這種小企業？應該是小商家還不是小企業，也不是微型的還是細微型的耶！這種時間點你們就要開始否認，有人在炒作，不是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["郭委員國文：所以我覺得財政部針對這部分的反應要稍微快一點。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["郭委員國文：接下來還有一個部分是關於房租，因為你們從110年開始做租屋補貼之後，我們就看到自110年開始，111年、112年、113年連續好幾年，房租租金的CPI年增率大幅成長，看起來是內政部的事情，但是財政部有針對房東做專案檢查，問一下，現在檢查幾戶了？違規率多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：詳細的數字我是不是請署長來做說明？"],["郭委員國文：來，請署長說重點。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，我們三次加起來大概查了6,053件，補了三億多，我們現在還在進行113年度，為期兩年的，現在還在進行當中。"],["郭委員國文：現在600？"],["宋署長秀玲：110年到112年……"],["郭委員國文：那有沒有違規？"],["宋署長秀玲：有，有違規的。"],["郭委員國文：違規多少？"],["宋署長秀玲：我現在看看，違章部分我沒有單獨的統計數字，但是違章的稅額加起來的話，大概有五百多億……對不起，我講錯了，是五百多萬。"],["郭委員國文：我聽到五百多億也嚇一跳。好，署長，我另外跟你建議一下，源頭應該也要查，除了房東之外，有一些臺灣租屋網、租租通、易租網這些平台有沒有帳，其實從這邊也可以看的出來數據，這是源頭管理的問題。接下來的目標就是要實租登錄，查的用意其實是要達到這個目標，跟內政部進行合作，好不好？","最後我要再運用一點時間問一下臺酒的董事長，部長你也留一下，你們現在已經有開始傾向於反傾銷的調查，反傾銷的調查開始之後，我們也看到主要是競爭不公平，反傾銷的調查，對岸惡意補貼35億來傾銷，侵占我們整個市占率，現在臺酒的市占率不到50%，10罐啤酒有6罐是從中國進來，同時它還混淆視聽、標示不明。好，第一點，關於標示不明，我問一下財政部的看法，要不要修正酒類標示的管理辦法，把產地跟品材的標籤做成同等大小，有沒有可能？部長請回答。"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，這個部分我們正在研議，看要不要做一個更明確的，可以知道它的產地是哪裡，而不是讓那個標示混淆了消費者。"],["郭委員國文：所以比例上的調整是有可能的嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再來考慮這個部分要怎麼做。"],["郭委員國文：這個方向好，這是第一個。","第二個，如果地方政府兩手一攤，地方政府不講話，萬事就平安的這種情況底下，不積極作為，我問一下，財政部難道也會坐視不管嗎？你們有沒有可能專案稽查？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們應該會有考核吧？"],["郭委員國文：考核是另外一個行政手段，專案稽查才有實質的效果，有沒有考慮專案稽查？"],["陳署長柏誠：跟委員報告，目前的查核都是地方政府會到各個賣場……"],["郭委員國文：可是如果依照你們的條文，各縣市都有類似這種情況呢？中央政府不是要有所作為嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：所以我們每年都有頒布菸酒查緝的專案計畫。"],["郭委員國文：那個是另外一回事，就專案啦！聽不懂我的意思？要遏止這種亂象啦！部長，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們看看有什麼方法，我們會對績優者給予敘獎表揚，但對於做得不夠好的，我們看有什麼樣的方式來讓他們重視這個事情。"],["郭委員國文：這是你平常應該做的。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["郭委員國文：另外要做的應該是專案稽查。部長，好好考慮一下，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝郭國文委員。","接著請林思銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159431","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159431","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0374c4c130c00db1b01b4bb3d6676f3fd525a0be0b44ec4a3f7e81291b4dfc0de5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"10:01:00 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審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案。(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條條文修正草案」案。(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案。(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」。【3月17日及20日二天一次會】）","type":"Clip","date":"2025-03-20","start_time":"2025-03-20T10:01:00+08:00","end_time":"2025-03-20T10:12:40+08:00","duration":700,"meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第3會期教育及文化委員會第3次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":3,"sessionTimes":3,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-3-22-3"},"features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":1.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.96284375,"end":5.464718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.46034375,"end":6.4772187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":8.333468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.274093750000002,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.03346875,"end":19.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.504718750000002,"end":44.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.35721875,"end":53.085968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.085968750000006,"end":109.34721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.954718750000005,"end":57.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.48221875,"end":113.51534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.10596875,"end":117.78471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.30784375,"end":120.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.27784375,"end":129.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.08659375000002,"end":135.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.81596875,"end":168.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.17346875,"end":172.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.02096875,"end":186.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.81659375,"end":183.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.39409375000002,"end":189.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.85784375,"end":259.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.32971875,"end":195.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.59534375,"end":195.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.96159375000002,"end":201.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.64471875,"end":205.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.11284375,"end":259.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.23096875000005,"end":259.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.41659375,"end":259.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.70346875,"end":265.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.66471875,"end":269.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.97659375,"end":267.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.46159375,"end":276.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.52784375000005,"end":304.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.26596875,"end":278.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.36721875,"end":313.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.45909375,"end":342.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.56409375000004,"end":315.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.87596875,"end":317.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.76659375,"end":343.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.75784375,"end":391.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.06784375,"end":385.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.44221875000005,"end":403.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.79909375000005,"end":438.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.14409375,"end":449.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.71346875,"end":439.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.56409375000004,"end":456.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.58409375,"end":457.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.02284375000005,"end":473.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.47659375,"end":496.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.86409375000005,"end":474.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.63284375,"end":503.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.01221875000005,"end":498.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.73721875,"end":527.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.79596875000004,"end":505.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.19221875000005,"end":507.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.51846875,"end":533.2978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.28096875,"end":535.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.0234687500001,"end":542.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.6303437500001,"end":539.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.28409375,"end":541.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.1572187500001,"end":543.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.8490937500001,"end":547.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.3972187500001,"end":555.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.90221875,"end":572.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start"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你趕快送上簡東以關跟教育有關的我們在場委員其實都會很願意來趕快去做趕快送上來我很怕有一些單位不送他好像到最後又是因為我們在動我們在閃我們覺得撐不起這樣子的一個謠言好不好謠言滿天飛"},{"start":205.43,"end":224.711,"text":"请把立即做澄清我们希望我们今天或明天看到让全国有公费留学的家长们放心在野党没有山也没有洞这是一个正确的资料好接下来我要问一下就是因为如此我还是忍不住要发声一下因为这位是跟我们是大学一样的同僚大学教授愿意能够"},{"start":225.191,"end":243.946,"text":"来到这个政府机关来服务我觉得都应该给予鼓励然后呢你们国立科学博物馆的馆长其实上是一个非常负责认真的我们过去呢去年也曾经到科博馆里面来做参访非常认真的告诉我们科博馆未来整个方向那我不晓得为什么会有逼退馆长这样的一件事情"},{"start":244.386,"end":259.104,"text":"而且呢让所有的研究员研究员都在做研究他们竟然就是连署而且上诉到赖总统的部分里面请问你们现在也只是代理为什么要让一个很优秀的馆长却是被你们教育部给被请辞"},{"start":259.805,"end":275.381,"text":"我想我這邊得到資料是交管長是在2月16號歸屆嘛那他是屆掉他的任期是到7月31號對有什麼理由要讓人家在2月的時候就走人這個屆掉沒有所謂我聽到的是屆掉沒有所謂的任期啦就是說這個他就是屆掉然後就是歸這個時間到"},{"start":276.903,"end":304.628,"text":"是他的理由事实上他想做到7月30而且他还在医院的时候呢曾经给全管发一封信希望大家能够为科普馆的未来能够做好一些预备的动作难道是因为他每一次都来我们这边希望我们周围能够帮他们争取预算争取到让你们教育部觉得这样的一个做法好像是太麻烦然后呢就因此明明是7月的时候可以让他去归件你们却在2月时候请人家走人"},{"start":305.387,"end":317.829,"text":"我想教育部這邊人事單位跟我講的說他們只有收到請辭的一個這個對不起次長他是被請辭你要不要再去了解一下雖然往事已矣但是我認為一個非常優秀的館長而且願意為科博館來因為對我來說的話他是一個科博館的損失是你們教育部的損失你有機會的話你也認識這位館長然後呢基於對於他的優秀跟認真我覺得有必要因為這對於未來"},{"start":332.972,"end":353.264,"text":"所有要被借掉到我们教育部各单位里面来从事公职的教授而言这都是一个指标我请次长可以好好的来了解一下谢谢你了我们来了解对这是一个非常重要的我们不需要一个优秀的人才因为是怎么样不同的理由特别是跟庄委不断的希望能够给予更多的经费然后让大家觉得这个"},{"start":353.744,"end":372.757,"text":"认真过度以至于让其他人觉得到底发生什么事我希望这种事情不要再发生在教育部所属的单位所以请次长好好去了解一下接下来我们就来看看营养午餐的这个公法了我想我去年五月的时候在当招委的时候我就召开了学校午餐法制化的一个公听会那时候次长"},{"start":373.137,"end":391.408,"text":"当然不是你是一个林明玉政策来出席而且公听会到距离现在是到底多久了十个月过去了然后呢请问有关于学校影响午餐的立法是否还在原地打转然后呢为什么行政院不能把这个院板送来而且我还要提醒张廖次长在我们"},{"start":392.506,"end":416.394,"text":"一起在當第九任立委的時候我們就把這一個營養午餐把它提出來為什麼到現在我們兩個各自站在對面來做質詢的時候他還在原地打戰我想這個是一個從法的角度看但是從實質的內容法就是要提就是要提出更好的一個環境譬如說要增加人力要補助一些弱勢的這個孩童或者說這個營養三張一Q的這個食材擴大補助其實在108年最早108年嘛那時候我當立委的時候當然對對"},{"start":421.816,"end":437.896,"text":"那時候提出來之後事實上大家所提的那雖然說各界的意見不太一樣在整合中但事實上從一百零九年開始當時的潘部長就說法沒有修我們資源先給所以不管是有關這個公立國中國民中小學的有沒有問題"},{"start":438.777,"end":456.51,"text":"但是我現在是回應到法的一個層面我要想了解教育部對於專法的一個態度我也看看你昨天很晚才送過來完全就是告訴我們說地方如何如何我們就一一來去看現在確實是遇到了就是說本來我們在去年11月20號已經送警政院就把布板的草案送了"},{"start":456.67,"end":470.537,"text":"所以已經有不滿了但是12月20號的時候就發生了中央財政收支發放法的問題那我們都知道說剛才我在報告的時候有提過那事實上根據地方制度法來講學校國民中學小學的學校營養餐事實上我們一一來釐清我們不要每一次都"},{"start":475.259,"end":499.285,"text":"都推給我們地方沒有問題我們現在來看嘛這其實最大的一個困難點還是到底我們政府可以投資多好的經費跟人力到底未來是中央跟地方治權怎麼樣分配這是後半段我現在只問到一個專法的部分你剛剛特別提到了院有院的板只是我們現在都沒看到院板長成什麼樣子我們修法會增加很多經費的投入就是提到地方的權限"},{"start":500.225,"end":506.047,"text":"就是說你修了法之後到底是要中央付地方所以你告訴我就說我們從那麼早開始到現在次長我們從我們第九任開始到現在所以因為裁劃法的關係讓原本要通過的部分開始又卡關所以我們現在裁劃法又開始要到釋憲又要開始到部分所以你是要告訴我們這麼樣一步可能可以推行的部分我們要等到釋憲完之後才要重新來看看這個釋權該怎麼樣"},{"start":527.136,"end":534.64,"text":"事實上從108年開始談營養午餐我們109年到111年的專案計畫已經投入了75.6億的補助我懂剛剛已經報告過了每年現在對於弱勢學童對於營養午餐的出發對於三張IQ每年74億這個沒有問題那修法之後會這樣這怎麼會沒有問題不是我下次告訴你說你現在這個專法你們的態度是你們行政院會有這個版本出來現在只是在事權的部分我們需要做一個釐清嘛"},{"start":553.971,"end":556.294,"text":"沒有錯你增加的費用跟現在負擔的費用都必須重新釐清嘛過去都有中央來租每年每年出74億修法之後最少再增加26億會有100億以上那100億都還是中央來出嗎那如果要地方出地方政府"},{"start":571.231,"end":594.016,"text":"我现在只是从时间轴的部分来说在这个才化法没有公布之前我们从第九任到现在显然我们都没有看到院版那现在有了一个才化法之后你告诉我因为才化法的部分才有我们就要追溯到更前面为什么因为我们要讨教事权之前还有很多条文因为我们有公办公益有公办民益有民办民益有非常多"},{"start":594.876,"end":611.193,"text":"其實營養五三除了沒有專法以外學校衛生法的第十六條二十二條二十三條之一二三我覺得這個東西才是我們應該好好來釐清的我們應該好好來釐清特別是我要特別提到的像我們美濃的龍渡國小裡面你大家知道嗎他們食農教育做得非常的好"},{"start":611.653,"end":628.204,"text":"而且他们都可以自给自足可是呢就是因为有这样的一个专法中央厨房下来反而让这些做得非常好的一个地方的偏远的地方他们反而因为这样子让他们很多的很好的一个计划就因此受到这样的部分我们现在没有专法也是可以做嘛"},{"start":628.604,"end":648.758,"text":"所以我才說在專法的過程當中是權先我們是後面在這專法部分我跟你討論說以類似相對的部分來看每個地區都有他們自己的不同的部分我們如何能夠用這樣的法能夠保障這些原有的一個特色又可以讓很多的孩子因為這樣子而得到更好的一個部分我覺得這才是一個我們要討論的部分"},{"start":650.839,"end":665.915,"text":"所以這就因地制宜嘛地方政府我們要尊重所以我才說在這個專法的這個層面上面有沒有把這些問題來考量至於你剛剛跟我一次argue那個只是在我們事權的分配上面那我們先從法條上面先一一來做釐清而且我所argue的點就是說我們這麼久以來"},{"start":668.517,"end":695.738,"text":"這個行政院的版本我們沒有看到要看到之前突然告訴我一個裁劃法讓我們這邊又要等到這個部分才能夠看到這是我剛剛跟你說我沒有否認說你這個市權該怎麼分配但是這個條文上面是否可以把我們剛剛所在乎的各地方的部分我覺得這才是他們的一個重點這部分我們會朝這個方向來協助我們有佈版啦隨時有佈版行程有佈版好 那就請我們剛剛講的即時澄清版請馬上讓我們可以看得到好 謝謝 謝謝各位 謝謝"},{"start":698.684,"end":699.085,"text":"謝謝柯志恩委員質詢"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":174,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（10時）謝謝。我們請張廖次長。"],["主席：請張廖次長備詢。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝柯委員。"],["柯委員志恩：次長好。在進入營養午餐專法探討之前，我們先來澄清一件事情。","在人民頭家的宣講當中，由於你們的委員及網路上所流傳的內容，以致家長都來抗議說，今年他們的小孩好不容易考上公費留考，但因為在野黨刪減了公費留學獎金預算，讓這些學生沒有辦法留學。我想請次長特別說明一下，今年的留學獎金有被刪減或被凍結嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：這科目據我了解是沒有，至於個案我們有去了解，細節我請……"],["柯委員志恩：不是個案！現在網路到處流傳……"],["張廖次長萬堅：就是網路流傳的個案。"],["柯委員志恩：你可不可以告訴我，既然你的理解是沒有……我先告訴你，就我們查出來的資料明顯告訴我們，教育部編列的國際人才經費為十四億八千多萬，其中公費留考的舉辦、留學生獎學金，包括貸款在內為3,407萬，這是預算書裡面寫的。至於鼓勵學生國外交流是4.8億，鼓勵赴世界一流大學的獎學金是2.3億，與世界大學合作的部分為1.95億，這還不包括留學貸款的兩千多萬及新南向國家產業實習的五億多，總共留學獎學金是9億4,000萬，比去年的7億還增加1.3億。請告訴我，為什麼有這麼多的謠傳？包括你們的立委在公開場合說，我們刪、我們凍，所以讓這些學生沒有辦法出去！請給我一個清楚的答案！"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員的資料非常清楚，我們得到的資料也是這樣子。"],["柯委員志恩：所以太誇張、太離譜了，好不好？太離譜！我的分貝有98，好不好？這是一個。教育部有澄清嗎？你們的選擇沉默，難道是在配合這樣的謠言嗎？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想我們不會去配合，只是網路有太多消息我們來不及澄清。"],["柯委員志恩：次長，我們給你一個機會，畢竟教育部一向需要把家長的concern放在心上，所以這非常重要，不要讓家長去……我也覺得好不容易考上留學，我們怎麼可能會刪減？雖然你們有即時新聞澄清網，我還上網去看了一下，真是不好意思，不曉得為了什麼，網頁停留在112年12月8日。如果我沒有記錯，現在應該是114年，對不對？這叫即時澄清網？次長，你覺得你們需不需要在這地方澄清讓家長放心呢？"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，這部分我們會來檢討……"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝你！基本上就是趕快澄清，我也希望教育部在你們的帶領之下都能非常理性。所以如果家長有不安心的地方，請趕快澄清。請問次長，你們的報告什麼時候要送來讓預算可以解凍？"],["張廖次長萬堅：預算已經在簽核了。"],["柯委員志恩：好，你趕快送來解凍，凡是跟教育有關的，相信我們在場的委員都會很願意支持，所以趕快去做、趕快送上來。我很怕如果有一些單位不送上來，到最後又說是因為我們在凍、我們在刪所致，我們絕對撐不起這樣的謠言，好不好？"],["張廖次長萬堅：不會，已經簽了。"],["柯委員志恩：謠言滿天飛，所以請立即澄清，希望今天或明天就可以看到，讓全國有孩子要公費留學的家長們放心，在野黨沒有刪也沒有凍，這是一個正確的資料。","接下來我要問一下。正因為如此，所以我忍不住要發聲。這位是我們的大學同僚，大學教授願意來政府機關服務，我覺得都應該給予鼓勵。據我所知，國立科學博物館館長非常負責認真，去年我們也曾經到科博館參訪，他非常認真告訴我們科博館未來的方向。我不曉得為什麼會有逼退館長這樣一件事情，而且讓所有的研究員連署，研究員都是在做研究，但他們竟然都去連署，而且上書給到賴總統，請問你們現在也只是代理，為什麼要讓一個很優秀的館長，卻是被你們教育部給被請辭？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想我這邊得到的資料，焦館長是在2月16號歸建，他是借調……"],["柯委員志恩：他的任期是到7月31號！"],["張廖次長萬堅：對，但是……"],["柯委員志恩：有什麼理由要讓人家在2月時就走了？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我聽到的是借調沒有所謂的任期啦，就是說，他就是借調，然後時間到他就歸建……"],["柯委員志恩：那是他的理由，事實上，他想做到7月30日，而且他在1月的時候，還曾經給全館發一封信，希望大家能夠為科博館的未來做好一些預備的動作，難道是因為他每一次都來我們這邊，希望我們召委能夠幫他們爭取預算，爭取到讓你們教育部覺得這樣的作法好像是太麻煩，然後就因此，明明是7月的時候可以讓他去歸建，你們卻在2月時候請人家走人！"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想教育部這邊，人事單位跟我講的是，他們只有收到請辭的一個……"],["柯委員志恩：對不起，次長，他是被請辭！你要不要再去了解一下？雖然往事已矣。"],["張廖次長萬堅：被請辭？我想人事……"],["柯委員志恩：但是我認為一個非常優秀的館長，而且願意為科博館來……對我來說，他的離開是科博館的損失，是你們教育部的損失，有機會的話，你也認識這位館長，然後基於對於他的優秀跟認真，我覺得有必要，因為對於未來所有要被借調到教育部各單位裡面來從事公職的教授而言，這都是一個指標，我請次長可以好好來了解一下。"],["張廖次長萬堅：好，謝謝你，我們來了解。"],["柯委員志恩：這是非常重要的，我們不希望一個優秀的人才，因為是什麼樣不同的理由，特別是跟召委不斷地溝通，希望能夠給予更多的經費，然後讓大家覺得這個人認真過度，以至於讓其他人覺得到底發生什麼事，我希望這種事情不要再發生在教育部所屬的單位，所以請次長好好去了解一下。","接下來，我們就來看看這個營養午餐的專法，我想去年5月我在當召委的時候，我就召開過學校營養午餐法制化的一個公聽會，那時候次長當然不是你，而是由林明裕政次來出席，而且公聽會距離現在到底多久了？10個月過去了，請問有關於學校營養午餐的立法是否還在原地打轉？為什麼行政院不能把院版送來？而且我還要提醒張廖次長，在我們一起當第9屆立委的時候，我們就把這一個營養午餐專法提出來，為什麼到現在，我們兩個各自站在對面來做質詢的時候，它還在原地打轉？"],["張廖次長萬堅：我想這個是一個法，從法的角度看，但從實質的內容，法就是要提出更好的環境，譬如說，增加人力，要補助一些弱勢的孩童，或者是針對三章一Q的食材擴大補助，其實在108年，最早是108年嘛那時候是我當立委的時候……"],["柯委員志恩：當然。"],["張廖次長萬堅：那時候提出來之後，雖然說各界的意見不太一樣，但事實上，在整合中，從109年開始，當時的潘部長就說法沒有修我們資源先給，所以不管是有關公立國中、國民中小學的午餐……"],["柯委員志恩：有，沒有問題，但是我現在只回應到法的層面，我想要了解教育部對於專法的態度，我也看到你們昨天很晚才送過來，完全就是告訴我們地方如何如何，我們就一一來去看。"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有，現在確實是遇到了，就是說本來我們在去年11月20號已經送行政院，就是把部版的草案送了。"],["柯委員志恩：所以已經有部版了？"],["張廖次長萬堅：但是12月20號的時候，就是發生了中央財政收支劃分法的問題，我們都知道，剛才我在報告的時候也有提過，事實上，根據地方制度法來講，學校、國民中學、小學的學校營養午餐，它的權責是在地方。"],["柯委員志恩：等一下，次長，我們一一來釐清，我們不要每一次都推給地方，沒有問題，我們現在來看嘛，其實最大的困難點還是在於到底我們政府可以投注多少的經費跟人力？到底未來是中央跟地方事權怎麼樣分配？這是後半段，我現在只問到專法的部分，你剛剛特別提到了，院有院的版，只是我們現在都沒有看到院版長成什麼樣子。"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們修法會增加很多經費的投入……"],["柯委員志恩：沒錯！"],["張廖次長萬堅：但涉及到地方的權限，就是說你修了法之後，到底是要中央付還是地方付……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你告訴我，就是說，我們從那麼早開始到現在，次長，我們從第9屆開始到到現在，所以因為財劃法的關係，讓原本要通過的部分開始又卡關，所以現在財劃法又開始要到釋憲，又要開始到那個部分，所以你現在是告訴我們，這麼樣一部可能可以推行的法案，我們要等到釋憲完之後才要重新來看看這事權該怎麼樣劃分？"],["張廖次長萬堅：柯委員，你誤會了，事實上從108年開始談營養午餐，我們109年到111年的專案計畫，已經投入了75.6億。"],["柯委員志恩：我懂，剛剛已經報告過了。"],["張廖次長萬堅：然後現在每年對於弱勢學童，對於營養午餐的廚房……"],["柯委員志恩：這沒有問題。"],["張廖次長萬堅：對於三章一Q，每年74億。"],["柯委員志恩：這個沒有問題，你剛才已經報告過了。"],["張廖次長萬堅：那修法之後會這樣……"],["柯委員志恩：對。"],["張廖次長萬堅：這怎麼會沒有問題呢？在財劃法修正之後……"],["柯委員志恩：不是，我現在只告訴你說，現在針對這個專法，你們的態度是你們行政院會有版本出來，現在只是在事權的部分我們需要做一個釐清嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有錯。"],["柯委員志恩：你現在確定這個部分沒有問題嘛。"],["張廖次長萬堅：沒有錯，增加的費用跟現在負擔的費用都必須重新釐清嘛，過去都由中央來出，每年……"],["柯委員志恩：那你在財劃法之前……"],["張廖次長萬堅：每年出74億，修法之後最少再增加26億，會有100億以上，那這100億都還是中央來出嗎？如果要地方出，地方政府要經過協商耶。"],["柯委員志恩：次長，我現在只是從時間軸的部分來說，在財劃法沒有公布之前，從第9屆到現在，顯然我們都沒有看到院版，現在有了一個財劃法之後，你告訴我，因為財劃法的部分才有，我們就要追溯到更前面，為什麼？因為我們要討教事權之前，還有很多條文，因為我們有公辦公營、有公辦民營、有民辦民營，有非常多。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員，你很清楚啦，其實營養午餐不是沒有，除了沒有專法以外，學校衛生法的第十六條、第二十二條、第二十三條之一、之二、之三，都是在規範……"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得這個東西才是我們應該好好來釐清的，特別是我要特別提到像美濃的龍肚國小，你大概知道嘛，他們的食農教育做得非常好，而且他們都可以自給自足，可是就是因為有這樣一個專法，中央廚房下來，反而讓這些做得非常好的地方、偏遠的地方，他們反而因為這樣子，讓他們很多很好的計畫，就因此受到這樣……"],["張廖次長萬堅：我們現在沒有專法也是可以做嘛。"],["柯委員志恩：是，所以我才說，在專法的過程當中，事權先，我們是後面，在這個專法部分，我要跟你討論，類似像這個部分來說，每個地區都有他們自己不同的部分，我們如何能夠用這樣的法，能夠保障這些原有的特色，又可以讓很多的孩子因為這樣子而可以得到更好的照顧，我覺得這才是一個我們要討論的部分。"],["張廖次長萬堅：委員所提的非常非常好，所以這就是因地制宜嘛。"],["柯委員志恩：對嘛！"],["張廖次長萬堅：地方政府我們要尊重。"],["柯委員志恩：所以我才說，在這個專法的層面上面，有沒有把這些問題納入考量？至於你剛剛跟我一直argue的部分，那個只是在我們事權的分配上面，我們先從法條上一一來做釐清，而且我所argue的點就是說，這麼久以來，行政院的版本，我們就是沒有看到，要看到之前，突然告訴我一個財劃法，讓我們這邊又要等到這個部分才能夠看到，這是我剛剛跟你說的，我沒有否認說你這個事權該怎麼分配，但是這個條文上面，是否可以把我們剛剛所在乎的各地方的部分，我覺得這才是最大的重點。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝委員的指正，這部分我們會朝這個方向來好協助，我們有部版啦，是有部版的。"],["柯委員志恩：好，那就請將我們剛剛講的，即時澄清版請馬上讓我們可以看得到。"],["張廖次長萬堅：謝謝，謝謝柯委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩委員質詢，次長請回座。","接著我們繼續質詢，有請萬美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":198,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-22-3","speakers":["葛如鈞","洪孟楷","王育敏","徐巧芯","楊瓊瓔","王鴻薇","羅廷瑋","許宇甄","鍾佳濱","陳秀寳","葉元之","柯志恩","萬美玲","林沛祥","林宜瑾","劉書彬","郭昱晴","范雲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","張雅琳","吳沛憶","林倩綺","鄭天財Sra 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審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「學校營養午餐法草案」案（僅進行詢答）；二、審\n查「運動產業發展條例」：(一) 審查委員柯志恩等22人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及\n第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(二) 審查委員張智倫等 18 人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(三) 審查委員洪孟楷等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第\n二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(四) 審查委員王鴻薇等 19 人擬具「運動產業發展\n條例第二十四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」案、(五) 審查委員林倩綺等22人擬具「運動產業\n發展條例第四條條文修正草案」案、(六) 審查委員沈發惠等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二\n條條文修正草案」案、(七) 審查委員許宇甄等17人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十四條及第二\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)審查委員萬美玲等19人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二條、第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」、(九)審查委員楊瓊瓔等27人擬具「運動產業發展條例第二十\n四條及第二十六條條文修正草案」（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1142901_00003"}}},{"id":"159430","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159430","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb08edce8b0a857f61e56c3f89dc79e7a25525a0be0b44ec4a37c0d8a20c67ed6ae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:51:46 - 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剛才有人在問你說逗台的事情其實你應該沒有見情啦沒有嘛 對不對我這個 在這個工作上面 我很努力對啦 很努力 沒有見情啦事實上比做多久更重要的就是要留下美名 不要留下罵名"},{"start":48.188,"end":75.14,"text":"我現在看你民調還算在前面啦還算在前面那最重要的要讓人民是幫你鼓掌的不要背後你去做民調的時候很多人罵你這個才比做多久更重要那最近有一個事情就會關係到你會留下美名還是罵名其實有兩個很重要的嘛你的任內電價會漲幾次這個就是你的歷史定位喔每次民調漲一次電價你可能民調就掉一些了"},{"start":76.38,"end":105.528,"text":"然後第二個你到底有沒有幫民眾解決用電的這個穩定然後電價不要一直是往上漲的這兩個都非常非常重要的包括你有沒有從根本的問題因為Key up來啊台電本來是個金雞模那它為什麼變成敗家子你找到那個病因啊對不對我們要從那個治本去把它解決你如果這個問題解決了那連你要建型你要走人民都會挽留你啊你如果走你如果一些事情都處理不好"},{"start":106.584,"end":110.91,"text":"那人民就希望你走嘛 是不是所以柏定我先來討論一個問題來你的任內啊 你覺得你的任內 電價會漲幾次肯定會漲幾次對不對最近4月份會再漲一次嗎 郭志輝的任內"},{"start":124.011,"end":139.3,"text":"馬上要漲第二次的電價嗎這會是你的歷史定位是人民對郭志輝的評價嗎報告委員就像那一天院長在大會大院上面講的我不是水電部長我是經濟部長我是為中華民國的經濟來打拚的"},{"start":141.181,"end":154.768,"text":"所以福國利民才是我的目標當然委員所關心的水電的部分這個是非常重要的跟民生絕對有相關所以您的指教我一定會謹記在心那至於處理台電的這個電價的問題我再三的跟您報告電價的問題不是由經濟部長來決定的"},{"start":165.674,"end":189.486,"text":"電價是由電價審議委員來決定的電價審議委員包含所有的專家、學者以及用電戶部長抱歉因為時間有限已經用掉一半時間了因為我在質詢我抱歉我必須要打斷非常抱歉我們讓人民知道經濟部跟政府有很重要的責任讓我們的電力不只要穩定電價也不能一直漲來我給你看一個圖來你看一下"},{"start":191.206,"end":193.967,"text":"看一下這是2006年到2004年的電價的調整馬英九任內漲了4次 降了3次蔡英文漲了4次"},{"start":203.161,"end":223.812,"text":"這個就是大家對馬英九跟蔡英文的評價一樣嘛我就是要問你嘛你現在任內你要盡量不要讓他一直長你看我們為民進黨執政以後最近這三年像沖天炮一樣三年已經沖了四次了你如果最近又漲了一次就三年漲了五次喔等一下大家都會記得郭志輝的任內"},{"start":224.833,"end":249.102,"text":"已經漲了兩次了 好不好所以你盡量要去踩煞車沒有 這是第一第二個更重要的大家對你更深的一個期待我也不是說隨便叫你說電價不要漲啊你從七月來你應該去找那個病因在什麼地方嘛你看 為什麼馬英九時代電價上去後來就掉下來民進黨政府為什麼一直往上衝 為什麼民進黨政府做了兩件事情是馬英九沒有做的"},{"start":250.626,"end":273.985,"text":"停掉核電對不對核電核一核二核三一年大概多花了一千億啊第二個買了綠電嘛這個都是民進黨以前沒有的你光是最近你買了那麼多的綠電一年300億度你現在只賣10%出去嘛對不對你如果儘快你現在賣RE30你儘快把它賣出去你一年五六百億的錢就進來了啊所以在講就是說電價可以不用漲"},{"start":275.543,"end":302.363,"text":"你去解決核電的問題你去解決馬上可以做的馬上可以做的剛講的I-30趕快去賣你把你買的高價買的核電把它賣出去7月可以買到綠電對不對這是7月也有嘛對不對台電也不要虧損嘛人民也不要再不要再被你漲電價所以4月1號有太多方法可以做好不好好好想一下好不好那另外我提我前幾天有特別提醒你你是漲電價我看"},{"start":305.714,"end":318.61,"text":"有一個不用漲的方式就是豐電的廠商跟你台電都有簽契約嘛對不對雲能豐廠2分2米的400億啊你這400億只要一把回來了你幹嘛去漲電價你現在有去把這個錢出回來了嗎"},{"start":324.939,"end":346.608,"text":"報告委員我們所做所為都是依法依規在進行那麼在法律的框架之下我們該做的事情都會去做那所以委員所指導的跟指教的部分我們會來參考那如果說我們有做不好的地方或者是沒有做到的地方這個我們會努力去改善"},{"start":348.613,"end":367.84,"text":"所以這個很具體嘛就是允能這個就是失敗的地方嘛對不對這個是依法要的啊你在允能該給你這400億的同時還有你漲電價的這個同時當然是先處理這400億進來啊那你說依法依合約來做為什麼到現在400億沒有要回來嗎能不能在最近電價審理委員會"},{"start":369.42,"end":392.96,"text":"好 開會之前把這400億要回來要回來你就可以電交審理委員講啊我現在有錢啊我們不要 我們不要去圖利廠商我們會照顧人民這一部分我是不請那個南原局長跟你報告一下好不好等一下啦 你私底下再給我那個啦我現在要求 你私底下 我因為我問題沒有問完時間已經到了 抱歉 局長那個因為沒有那個400億啦那個400億是委員算的 那沒有那個400億這個從去年開始 從"},{"start":396.045,"end":420.958,"text":"不是每一條都是想在問的時候你們都說你們盡力要去把這400億要回來這企業不是清清楚楚嗎因為它有中間有一些遇到COVID有一些不可抗力的因素是可以扣除所以OK來所以第一個不是沒有是有然後你說是因為碰到疫情對不對可是它確實造成我們第一個造成我們要用綠電延誤了第二個是依照企業就是應該可以罰我現在問你哪一個輕哪一個重我想對於這個題聽我講哪一個輕哪一個重在企業"},{"start":424.64,"end":426.524,"text":"在風電商跟人民之間哪一個重"},{"start":427.95,"end":454.226,"text":"你現在這400億不要回來 結果你去仗人民的這個底下你現在只要再把400億依法去契約沒有400億這個命題沒有400億這個命題你說沒有是因為你說你把它認定放寬變成說碰到疫情嘛對不對我們可以跟你再報告這個部分齁但是沒有400億這個命題所以要我去要這個400億真的就是我沒有辦法這個這個不憑空嘛你們現在的解釋是說因為碰到疫情嘛對不對"},{"start":455.246,"end":470.136,"text":"你等於是放寬了嘛HIGH CHASE是延誤了嘛所以蔡委所理的保證金要扣抵這個問題嘛我們絕對是依法我們決定是絕對依法依規來進行的我們一定是依照法律的規定在進行工作如果委員認為說我們這裡面有不法的行為我歡迎提告"},{"start":482.664,"end":487.046,"text":"一方面是提告嘛,一方面你們有責任我們建議,也許我們的做法,您認為說不對,那我們接受這個改善但是如果不是事實的,歡迎提告普天,我經常在經濟二輪會問這件事,已經問兩次了第一,總是想問一件事,要回去查證書,然後會盡量這個是虛無的事情"},{"start":508.545,"end":528.972,"text":"這個是委員推估的推估的金額我們認為這樣不是推估的金額 不是 署長合約上面是這樣寫嘛 對不對現在是你們幫他解套嘛沒有沒有 委員如果認為在這個情況之下我們歡迎提告一方面是提告 一方面是你們不要只有幫廠商解套的同時我們不會幫廠商來做這個這個"},{"start":533.888,"end":561.319,"text":"解釋一方面我們走法律的途徑一方面就是你要跟民眾非常清楚交代是有這個企業的只是你幫他用疫情這個解套人家接不接受這個就是我剛講的歷史定位跟人民什麼看你的問題人民覺得你該不該幫他解套特別他影響到我們漲電價報告委員我們希望就事實討論衍生性的這個假設啊我認為還是要透過科學的方式來討論因為所有的事實的"},{"start":562.379,"end":577.606,"text":"這個反正所有的事實的進行一定是有科學的根據才能夠提出來論述用假設性或者推論的我認為這樣的話可能就失去我們理系討論的這樣的一個範圍什麼叫事實 什麼叫科學有沒有這份"},{"start":579.208,"end":596.027,"text":"這個合約 有嘛有沒有罰款這個事情 有嘛現在問題出這個有 這個就是事實 這個就是科學現在問題出在你們幫他解套啊我們是依合約來討論這樣那你幫他解套我問你 你要幫他解套的同時上不上的選委的同時你幫他解套完之後四百億不見了你又來佔我們的電價"},{"start":597.674,"end":621.871,"text":"不是這樣子這個事情我們要清楚這是一條路第二個我們有共識嘛對不對保定那第二個我們有共識R1300要綠電趕快賣對不對讓企業可以買到電可以贏然後呢台電台電可以賺到錢根本就不用漲電價我們生命的贏不用好不好我們來研究啦我們一定是在法律的框架之下"},{"start":622.671,"end":639.754,"text":"我們來進行我們的業務啦超過法律的允許的範圍我們是沒有辦法做的這一點請我這個委員可以原諒我們就用事實跟科學來做今天這個討論所以馬上讓人民電價對整個物價衝擊是太大的那我們提出三個解方"},{"start":640.555,"end":668.471,"text":"至少有兩個你是有共識的嘛第一個綠電趕快賣出去創造企業買到電台電有賺到錢人民不用漲電價是個三年這是第一條路第二個重啟核電最近國際上都已經重啟了AIT的處長這幾天已經說了他說連美國日本都在用核電他們還可以幫我們好不好斯德晚前任的這個AIT的處長也講了好好去思考一下包括烏俄戰爭的時候德國都讓他的這個三座"},{"start":670.498,"end":696.195,"text":"三座這個核電廠都可以研議那最近美國跟日本都是只要是安全的一到三年都可以重啟我想研議的問題我們是要尊重這個大院的這個規定那大院在之前有規定我們一定要下載我們在法的框架下去進行這個核電下載當然你要說研議啊恢復我想這個只要大院通過"},{"start":697.316,"end":726.079,"text":"我們就是尊重大院的這個規定昨天委員會已經開了第一個公聽會啦這個我們會盡快修法方面我們會我相信這個不是只有在野黨的這個責任啦執政黨更有這個義務跟這個責任要去共同來推動包括部長這對你來講能源的穩定跟電價不要太高這都是你的事好所以綠電核電趕快要去處理那你剛剛講有爭議性的這一塊我們讓全民來公平到底你們用這個疫情這個去幫他解套到底合不合適我們會急著追下去"},{"start":727.2,"end":745.83,"text":"我們不會為單一廠商去解套我也要求我的同仁必須要在法的框架之內進行工作不能夠為單一廠商去解套目前看到的事實就是這樣啊我們在法的框架之內我們去努力但是我們絕不為這個法以外的事情去做解套"},{"start":756.755,"end":762.619,"text":"部長一方面是法啦一方面就是現在人民看到的事你去幫這家廠商四百億沒進來你們已經重複四百億是民推運的謝謝大家好我們現在"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":162,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時52分）請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，剛才有人在問你關於下臺的事情，你應該沒有倦勤啦！沒有嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：在這個工作上面我努力。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦！很努力，沒有倦勤啦！事實上比做多久更重要的，就是要留下美名，不要留下罵名。我現在看你民調還算在前面，最重要的要讓人民是幫你鼓掌的，不要背後做民調的時候，很多人罵你，這個比做多久更重要。最近有一個事情關係到你會留下美名還是罵名，其實有兩點很重要，你的任內電價會漲幾次，就是你的歷史定位喔！每漲一次電價，你的民調可能就掉一些了；第二個，你到底有沒有幫民眾解決用電穩定，然後電價不要一直往上漲，這兩個都非常、非常重要，包括你有沒有從根本的問題來看，你從企業來的啊！台電本來是個金雞母，為什麼變成敗家子？你要找到病因啊！對不對？我們要從治本去把它解決，你如果這個問題解決了，連你要倦勤、你要走，人民都會挽留你。你如果事情一直都處理不好，人民就希望你走，是不是？部長，我先跟你討論一個問題，你覺得在你的任內電價會漲幾次？去年已經漲一次，對不對？最近4月份會再漲一次嗎？郭智輝的任內馬上就要漲第二次的電價嗎？這會是你的歷史定位，是人民對郭智輝的評價嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，就像那一天院長在院會上講的，我不是水電部長，我是經濟部長。我是為中華民國的經濟來打拚，所以福國利民才是我的目標。當然委員所關心的水電部分，這個是非常重要的，跟民生絕對有正相關……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，因為時間很有限……"],["郭部長智輝：對於您的指教，我會謹記在心。至於處理台電電價的問題，我再三跟您報告，電價問題不是由經濟部長來決定的，電價是由電價審議委員來決定的。電價審議委員包含所有的專家、學者以及用電戶，由他們來決定。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，抱歉，因為時間有限，已經用掉一半的時間了。因為我在質詢，抱歉，我必須要打斷，非常抱歉。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["張委員啓楷：我們要讓人民知道到經濟部跟政府有很重要的責任，讓電力不只要穩定，電價也不能一直漲。","我給你看一個圖。你看一下，這是2006年到2024年的電價調整，馬英九任內漲了四次、降了三次；蔡英文漲了四次，這個就是大家對馬英九跟蔡英文的評價。一樣，我就是要問你，你現在任內儘量不要讓它一直漲。你看從民進黨執政以後，最近這三年像沖天炮一樣，三年已經沖了四次了，如果最近又漲一次，就是三年漲了五次喔！第一個，大家就會記得郭智輝的任內已經漲了兩次了，所以你儘量要去踩煞車，這是第一個。第二個是更重要的，大家對你有更深的期待，我也不是隨便叫你電價不要漲啊！你來自企業，你應該去找那個病因在什麼地方。你看，為什麼馬英九時代電價上去後來會掉下來？民進黨政府為什麼一直往上沖？為什麼？民進黨政府做了兩件事情是馬英九沒有做的，停掉核電，對不對？核一、核二、核三一年大概就多花了1,000億；第二個是買了綠電，這個都是民進黨以前沒有的，光是最近你買了那麼多的綠電，一年300億度，現在只賣10%出去，對不對？如果現在賣RE30儘快賣出去，一年五、六百億的錢就進來了啊！","所以我一直在講，電價可以不用漲，要去解決核電的問題，你去解決馬上可以做的，剛剛講的RE30趕快去賣，把你們高價買的核電賣出去，企業可以買到綠電，這樣企業也贏，對不對？台電不要虧損，人民也不要再被漲電價，所以4月1號有太多方法可以做，好好想一下，好不好？","另外，我前幾天有特別提醒你，你是漲電價，我看有一個不用漲的方式，風電的廠商跟台電都有簽契約，對不對？在雲林的允能風場，400億啊！這400億只要依法要回來，你幹嘛去漲電價？你現在有去把這個錢追回來嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們所作所為都是依法依規在進行，在法律的框架之下，我們該做的事情都會去做，所以委員所指導跟指教的部分，我們會來參考，如果我們有做不好的地方或是沒有做到的地方，我們會努力去改善。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，所以這個很具體嘛！允能這個就是400億在那邊，對不對？這個是依法要的啊！在允能該給你們400億及漲電價的同時，當然是先處理這400億進來啊！你說依法、依合約來做，為什麼到現在400億都沒有要回來？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：能不能在最近電價審議委員會開會之前把這400億要回來？要回來，你就可以跟電價審議委員會講，我們現在有錢啊！"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員……"],["張委員啓楷：我們不要去圖利廠商，我們會照顧人民。"],["郭部長智輝：這一部分我是不是請能源署長跟你報告一下？"],["張委員啓楷：等一下，你私底下再給我資料。我現在要求，因為我問題沒有問完，時間已經到了，抱歉！署長……"],["李代理署長君禮：因為沒有那個400億啦！400億是委員算的，沒有那個400億。"],["張委員啓楷：這個從去年開始，不只媒體喔！"],["李代理署長君禮：因為中間要……"],["張委員啓楷：羅智強在問的時候，你們都說你們盡力要去把這400億要回來，這契約不是清清楚楚嗎？"],["李代理署長君禮：沒有那400億，因為中間遇到COVID，有一些不可抗力的因素是可以扣抵的。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，所以第一個，不是沒有嘛！是有，然後你說是因為碰到疫情，對不對？可是第一個，它確實造成我們要用綠電延誤了；第二個，依照契約就是應該可以罰嘛！我現在問你，哪一個輕、哪一個重？"],["郭部長智輝：委員，對於這個……"],["張委員啓楷：你聽我講、你聽我講，哪一個輕、哪一個重？"],["郭部長智輝：我們跟你報告……"],["張委員啓楷：在企業、在風電商跟人民之間，哪一個重？你們現在這400億不要回來，結果去漲人民的電價！"],["郭部長智輝：不是，委員，沒有那個400……"],["張委員啓楷：你們現在只要把400億依法跟契約……"],["郭部長智輝：沒有400億這個命題、沒有400億這個命題。"],["張委員啓楷：你說沒有是因為你說你們認定放寬，變成說是碰到疫情，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們可以跟你再報告這個部分，但是沒有400億這個命題，所以要我去要這個400億，我真的沒有辦法憑空來……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你們現在的解釋是因為碰到疫情，對不對？等於是放寬了嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有400億這個命題。"],["張委員啓楷：它確實是延誤了嘛！所以才會有履約保證金要扣抵的這個問題，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：我們絕對是依法……"],["張委員啓楷：那你們現在是圖利……"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們絕對是依法依規來進行的。"],["張委員啓楷：幫風電廠商解約、圖利廠商，然後來漲人民的電價！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有，我們一定是依照法律規定在進行工作……"],["張委員啓楷：契約上面是這樣寫啊！"],["郭部長智輝：如果委員認為這裡面有不法的行為，我歡迎提告！"],["張委員啓楷：好，我們一方面是提告，一方面你們有責任啊！"],["郭部長智輝：我們建議……"],["張委員啓楷：如我剛才講的，現在有兩個大的問題啦！"],["郭部長智輝：也許您認為我們的作法不對，那我們接受改善，但如果不是事實的，歡迎提告。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我之前在經濟委員會問你這個事情已經問兩次了，在總質詢問一次……"],["郭部長智輝：對，但是我的同仁告訴我……"],["張委員啓楷：你們都說要回去查清楚，然後會儘量……"],["郭部長智輝：這個是虛無的事情，這個是委員推估的。"],["張委員啓楷：剛剛你們的署長……"],["郭部長智輝：推估的金額，我們認為這樣……"],["張委員啓楷：不是推估的金額，署長，合約上面是這樣寫嘛，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：是啊！所以……"],["張委員啓楷：現在是你們幫它解套嘛！"],["郭部長智輝：沒有、沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：你們說因為有疫情，所以……"],["郭部長智輝：委員如果認為是在這個情況之下，我們歡迎提告。"],["張委員啓楷：一方面是提告，一方面是你們不要只有幫廠商解套的同時，又要漲人民的電價！"],["郭部長智輝：我們不會幫廠商解釋。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，一方面我們會走法律的途徑，一方面你要向民眾非常清楚交代，是有這個契約的，只是你幫它用疫情來解套，人民接不接受？"],["郭部長智輝：我們當然是為國人在做服務的工作。"],["張委員啓楷：這個就是我剛剛講的歷史定位跟人民怎麼看你的問題囉！"],["郭部長智輝：對，但是……"],["張委員啓楷：人民覺得你該不該幫它解套，特別是它影響到我們漲電價。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們希望就事實討論，關於衍生性的假設，我認為還是要透過科學的方式來討論……"],["張委員啓楷：部長……"],["郭部長智輝：因為所有事實的反證、所有事實的進行，一定是有科學的根據才能夠提出來論述，用假設性或者推論的，我認為這樣可能就失去我們理性討論的範圍。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，什麼叫事實、什麼叫科學？有沒有這份合約？有嘛！有沒有罰款這個事情？有嘛！現在問題出……"],["郭部長智輝：我們一定……"],["張委員啓楷：這個就是事實、這個就是科學，現在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但是已經去了日本"},{"start":39.015,"end":47.319,"text":"請問你,他去日本熊本那個廠,他是一個新的獨立的公司還是子公司?請問子公司,是這是子公司,所以他要報合併報表,對吧?"},{"start":63.682,"end":89.162,"text":"賺的錢要匯回來這個對吧合併報表要看他股東會最後怎麼決議那現在公司的移所稅是合併報表那員工的中所稅就有一個問題了比如說張三跟李氏台積定的高級員工年薪一千萬"},{"start":90.58,"end":91.721,"text":"他現在去亞利桑那他如果在台灣報那就670萬的免稅額海外所得 670萬免稅"},{"start":105.458,"end":113.601,"text":"現在已經調到750萬現在調到750 最新的750 免稅額從亞利桑那賺的錢就750萬匯回來他就只課250萬的稅喔我是台積電的在竹科的員工我一樣課1000萬的稅喔現在差很多"},{"start":127.466,"end":144.878,"text":"啊怎麼辦 請問你 這樣要怎麼辦張三理事要來查財 去亞利桑那裡回來只課250的稅啊我在這裡傻傻的在這裡工作就課一千萬的稅 假如年薪都是一千萬 怎麼講委員 這個激增的時務我是不是請署長來做署長可以啊 說署長"},{"start":147.931,"end":173.744,"text":"報告委員 因為台積電的子公司所僱用的員工他是在美國提供勞務所以他會變美國的來源所的美國會去課稅簡單講他是講美國的所以他美國的稅沒有比台灣輕這是第一點第二點他海外所得要不要課稅要看他是台灣的居住者如果他已經改變身份已經變成是美國的居住者不是台灣的他沒有最低稅負的問題"},{"start":174.784,"end":187.956,"text":"沒有啊 我當然 我剛去一定是台灣人啊 怎麼會呢其實先去那裡工作也是先綠卡 那個一定要是台灣人啊報稅一樣 報台灣的稅啊 怎麼會報美國的稅除非他還真的要轉成公民 那好幾年咧不會馬上變美國公民啦 不會的事啦"},{"start":194.022,"end":213.95,"text":"我在美國那國書都很清楚的哪裡有時候去的工作馬上變美國人先拿綠卡綠卡的時候還是台灣人啦是是是所以我說要科學居住者就有這個問題啊我先告訴你們你們都沒想過就有這個問題他就在那裡即便那裡課了稅他一樣其他的地方可以匯回來台灣裡面750萬是沒有稅的"},{"start":217.971,"end":236.462,"text":"這裡面就有空檔了 就這些人就有空檔了 這個你就少收了很多稅 這樣跟你說好 謝謝提醒 因為他在國際上你都沒有想過這個問題的拜託 你是好稅的署長都沒有想這個問題報告委員 其實在國際間 這種空稅的課稅這一定產生的嘛 所以 下一個問題來 部長啊就很重要的"},{"start":242.825,"end":265.134,"text":"避免雙重課稅不然你在這裡承諾我們才兩年啊大概兩年又哭哭哭你都沒有現在躺在美國參議院原來中醫院 你說哇 好樂觀喔哇讚 多哇讚好像你那時候第一次回答我的時候是前年的9月 10月就要通過了到現在今年3月了"},{"start":266.089,"end":275.243,"text":"叫咕咕咕啊你知道咕咕咕的意思嗎我了解咕咕咕就是那個雞蛋嚇不出來叫咕咕咕啊"},{"start":276.898,"end":281.002,"text":"跟委員報告,其實這個部分的工作我們財政部的同仁和美方的財政部同仁其實一直就國際文書的內容我們相互進行有關技術性的一些討論都持續在進行但是美國國會的生態,你們也知道他們去年年底然後這一次的新國會上任也很快通過了ADTA的兩個法案"},{"start":300.477,"end":319.578,"text":"另外他們國內當然他們也有政治上的一些考量譬如說現在參議院他們是在做有關川普新革員的一關有關認證的會議也是非常清楚大家都知道因為現在川普2.0 大家不願意關稅的不告不撒撒沒有時間搞你這個啦 所以"},{"start":320.479,"end":341.304,"text":"部長 再給你一次機會 你告訴我 什麼時候可以有望千層啊今年有沒有可能 今年 今年跟委方的話 我想不管是總統員或院長也好在各種場合都不斷地在跟提起這個事情同時我們的外交部 美方的TECRO也都"},{"start":341.864,"end":346.127,"text":"也都一直積極的在跟美國的國會在進行溝通時間的話這個時間其實真的不是掌握在美方他們的一個整個審議的一個進程那我們會積極的溝通不管經濟部也好或者是外交部也好都在努力"},{"start":361.434,"end":389.809,"text":"川普講的台積電不是投資一千億美金是兩千億美金而且亞利桑那州長處女的就在台灣她把這些供應鏈的廠商都找來了歡迎你們在這裡投資亞利桑那是鳥不生蛋的地方現在不得了了有TSMC在那裡整個供應鏈整個鳳凰城變成一個"},{"start":391.312,"end":410.607,"text":"變成一個叫什麼 也不是鳳凰城啦 阿里隆啦 鳳凰城是Capitol阿里隆變成一個阿台積電城阿里隆的台積電城變成這個樣子 整片都是喔這麼多廠商在那裡你們這個稅務要趕快解決的話這個影響很大耶 部長"},{"start":412.131,"end":435.871,"text":"我們知道對稅的部分雙方來簽訂這個租稅協定的話可以避免這個雙重科稅很嚴重喔所以這個部分這個部分我們應該是要積極地趁這個時機應該要促美方來重視這個議題但我相信他們非常重視來我們請今天的八大關股航空上來好嗎"},{"start":436.952,"end":440.134,"text":"請董董回答董董董董董董董董董董董董"},{"start":466.843,"end":484.271,"text":"他姓董又是董事長叫董董很多人不知道為我為什麼講兩次因為在董董董董是金頭腦腦筋非常好的要給你額入好你來兆富也賺很多錢可是我們看到最近"},{"start":485.236,"end":503.238,"text":"因為大家要應付川普的412號對等關稅外資拼命的賣最近賣了你們拼命買可是你們買的很少賣了很多買的很少所以股價就一直跌你們知不知道現在關股最近買多少知道嗎"},{"start":504.672,"end":522.28,"text":"抱歉,因為我沒有參與這方面的投資處的事情你們現在賣幾十億而已啊,人家賣七百億啊現在是沒有護盤吧,現在是沒有護盤加減護盤啦,沒有護盤,你是給陣友說瞎話啦,沒有護盤來,我現在比較詐欺的,比較詐欺的,只是聽我八位長官啊,大長官聽好喔你們一到三年份的加薪都沒有發,為什麼?"},{"start":531.179,"end":550.294,"text":"報告委員因為整個財政部是我們的大股東那大股東沒有加薪情況之下我們身為的壓值公司請問你是關股公司你是國民事業還是還是民營化公司我們是販關股的事業你們是民營化公司對民營化但是是民營化"},{"start":551.195,"end":571.634,"text":"啊 名話奇怪 台積電也有我們政府的關股喔國化會的主委就是台積電的董事台積電他就已經加薪了為什麼你們可以不加薪那個台土書啊 這三家可以被諒解"},{"start":572.575,"end":582.306,"text":"但是你們其他的都是不能被諒解的你們公司治理董事會決定該加薪就加薪為什麼要拖為什麼一定要跟著政府走呢"},{"start":583.359,"end":606.1,"text":"包委員我們的股東結構不一樣啦因為在台積電裡面關股還是占少數嘛但是關股在我們董事會裡面占的是多數但是沒有過半嗎是啊但是在董事會裡面是過半啦所以在公司治理上的話我們還是要尊重的你們的關股在董事會裡面過半"},{"start":607.907,"end":622.873,"text":"所以 所以就只能按照政府來走 是不是對 報告委員 其實我們只是晚一點發但是如果哪一天 就整個公務人員調薪的時候我們當然會回溯的所以這沒有可以回發的問題 只是回溯的問題我知道啦 可以晚一點發啦 財政部來 部長 部長"},{"start":632.202,"end":652.207,"text":"其實你們都是刻意的晚一點發都是為了配合大罷門晚一點發啦沒有這樣的事啊當然是啊你們本來也可以發按照我問了主計長主計長告訴我很清楚的本來就可以按照舊的來發"},{"start":654.771,"end":671.259,"text":"您說我們一般行政機關的公務員當然因為我們還是按照舊的發那另外像台土書三家國營事業的金額他們已經跟公務員的薪水脫鉤了也不會有說現在總理說我夫人也不過了請問你什麼時候可以發這個要問主計總署"},{"start":677.262,"end":681.807,"text":"因為現在萬物齊漲啦 現在電價也要漲 水價也要漲還要再回來問那個董董 齊校獎金什麼時候可以放"},{"start":696.59,"end":721.287,"text":"我們的獎金它有一定的期程啦什麼時候?績效獎金應該已經發了吧?我們年終獎金已經發了幾個月了績效獎金沒有發?沒有發?不用錯了,年終獎金沒有發,績效獎金沒有發我們有預支一個月,但是五月份的時候會發然後會跟員工酬勞,員工酬勞吧大概發幾個月?我們全部獎金加起來大概九個月九個月?全部全部"},{"start":723.309,"end":749.669,"text":"沒有沒有報告委員是九個月是九個月我們以往曾經但是因為去年請問後面幾位啊因為我時間到了後面幾位啊比趙鋒還少的舉手我都比趙鋒少喔所以沒有比趙鋒多少一個月的舉手比趙鋒少一個月的舉手少兩個月的舉手少三個月的舉手"},{"start":751.368,"end":762.575,"text":"稍微少兩個月啦 你會怕命咧 招風都可以發這樣子喔你發這個 最後一個小問題 最後一個小問題來來來 核庫金的董事長 林董事長 來來來從你上來以後啊 以前合作金庫都是在前面數一數啊從你上來以後都是倒數第一名啊 你們講一下本地的 為什麼這樣子"},{"start":777.708,"end":778.93,"text":"跟委員報告 核庫最近幾年有在調結構啦"},{"start":795.231,"end":817.045,"text":"都不差 雖然不是怎麼樣 但最少不會最後一名可是到了2024年你來當董事長 最後一名原因是什麼我告訴你原因 大家都知道媒體寫的是什麼就是員工在抱怨 你都在只賣保險其他業務不要只賣保險所以落井落海 水水到這樣 你不要調整一下"},{"start":819.508,"end":833.739,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分在賣保險是所有金融機構都在做的事情集中在賣保險這其中一部分不應該集中在這裡啦你業務要分散一下嘛"},{"start":834.52,"end":848.626,"text":"是你要不要去跟董董去研究一下會跟董董再請教你來當董事長這樣 才六歲啊最後一名啦 難看啦 你董事長難看不好看 好不好"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":272,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時47分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。請財政部的莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長你好。台積電已經去了美國，要去美國啦，但是已經去了日本，請問你，它去日本熊本那個廠，它是一個新的獨立的公司還是子公司？請問，這個很重要喔！"],["莊部長翠雲：子公司。"],["賴委員士葆：這是子公司，所以它要報合併報表對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["賴委員士葆：賺的錢要匯回來，這個對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["賴委員士葆：合併報表？"],["莊部長翠雲：要看它股東會最後怎麼決議。"],["賴委員士葆：好，現在公司的營所稅是合併報表，員工的綜所稅就有一個問題了，比如張三跟李四，台積電的高級員工年薪1,000萬，他現在去Arizona，他如果在臺灣報，那就670萬的免稅額，海外所得，對吧？670萬免稅，對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：現在已經調到750萬。"],["賴委員士葆：現在調到750萬，最新的是750萬免稅額，從Arizona賺的錢就750萬匯回來，他就只課250萬的稅喔！我是台積電在竹科的員工，我一樣課1,000萬的稅喔，為什麼差這麼多？怎麼辦請問你？這樣要怎麼辦？張三、李四這樣差這麼多，去Arizona回來只課250萬的稅，我在這裡傻傻地工作就課1,000萬的稅，假如年薪都是1,000萬，怎麼講？來。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，有關稽徵的實務，我是不是請署長來做說明？"],["賴委員士葆：好，署長可以啊！宋署長來。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，因為台積電的子公司所僱用的員工他是在美國提供勞務，所以他會變美國的來源所得，美國會去課稅，簡單講他是繳美國的稅，美國的稅沒有比臺灣輕，這是第一點。第二點，他的海外所得要不要課稅，要看他是不是臺灣的居住者，如果他已經改變身分，已經變成是美國的居住者不是臺灣的，他沒有最低稅負的問題。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有啊，我到那邊，我剛去一定是臺灣人啊，怎麼會呢？即便去那裡工作也是先綠卡，那個一定要是臺灣人啊！"],["宋署長秀玲：要看他們有沒有符合居住者的定義。"],["賴委員士葆：報稅一定要報臺灣的稅，怎麼會報美國稅？除非他已經轉成公民，那要好幾年，不會馬上變美國公民啦，沒那個事情啦！我在美國念過書都很清楚的，哪裡有說去了工作馬上變美國人，先拿綠卡，綠卡的時候還是臺灣人啦！"],["宋署長秀玲：是、是、是，所以我說要看他是不是居住者。"],["賴委員士葆：就有這個問題，我現在告訴你們，你們都沒想過，就有這個問題，他就在那裡，即便那裡課了稅，他一樣其他的地方可以匯回來臺灣，裡面750萬是免稅的，這裡面就有空檔了，這一些人就有空檔了，你就少收了很多稅，這樣跟你說。"],["宋署長秀玲：好，謝謝提醒。"],["賴委員士葆：對吧？"],["宋署長秀玲：但是因為他在國際的……"],["賴委員士葆：你都沒想過這個問題，拜託，你是賦稅署長都沒在想這個問題。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，其實這在國際間，這種租稅、課稅……"],["賴委員士葆：這一定產生的嘛！所以下一個問題，來，部長，很重要的就是避免雙重課稅，部長，你在這裡承諾差不多兩年了，大概兩年又「咕咕咕」也都沒有，還躺在美國的參議院，原來的眾議院，你說：哇，好樂觀喔！說有多讚就有多讚，好像你那時候第一次回答我的時候是前年的9月、10月就要通過了，到現在今年3月了，又「咕咕咕」啊！你知道「咕咕咕」的意思嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我了解。"],["賴委員士葆：「咕咕咕」，雞蛋下不出來就「咕咕咕」啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，其實這個部分的工作，我們財政部的同仁和美方的財政部同仁一直就國際文書的內容，我們相互進行有關技術性的一些討論，都持續在進行，但是美國國會的生態，您也知道他們去年年底選舉……"],["賴委員士葆：是啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：然後這一次的新國會上任也很快通過了ADTA的兩個法案。另外他們國內當然他們也有政治上的一些考量，比如說現在參議院他們是在做有關川普新閣員的相關認證的會議，也是非常……"],["賴委員士葆：大家都知道，因為現在川普2.0，大家搞他的關稅就搞得亂七八糟，沒有時間搞你這個啦！所以部長，再給你一次機會，你告訴我什麼時候可以有望牽成，今年有沒有可能？今年、今年？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我想不管是總統也好或院長也好……"],["賴委員士葆：2025有沒有可能？"],["莊部長翠雲：在各種場合都不斷地提起這個事情，同時我們的外交部、美方的TECRO也都一直積極地在跟美國國會在進行溝通……"],["賴委員士葆：你講這些話……"],["莊部長翠雲：那講時間的話，這個時間其實真的是掌握在美方他們整個審議的進程，我們會積極地溝通，不管經濟部也好或者是外交部也好都在努力。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，來，你聽我一句話，川普講的台積電不是投資1,000億美金，是2,000億美金，而且Arizona的州長是女的，就在臺灣，他把一些supply……"],["莊部長翠雲：最近來臺灣，對。"],["賴委員士葆：供應鏈的廠商都找來啦！歡迎你們來這裡投資，Arizona是鳥不生蛋的地方，現在不得了了，有tsmc在那裡，整個supply chain、整個鳳凰城變成一個叫什麼？也不是鳳凰城，Arizona，鳳凰城是capital，Arizona變成一個「A台積電城」，「Arizona台積電城」，變成這個樣，整片都是喔！這麼多廠商在那裡，你們這個稅沒有趕快解決的話，這個影響很大耶！部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，我們知道這個……"],["賴委員士葆：影響何其大？"],["莊部長翠雲：是、是、是，對於稅的部分，雙方來簽訂租稅協定的話，可以避免超額稅負，避免企業……"],["賴委員士葆：這個雙重課稅很嚴重。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以這個部分，我們應該是要積極趁這個時機，應該要促美方來重視這個議題，但我相信他們非常重視。"],["賴委員士葆：來，我們請今天的八大官股行庫上來好嗎？部長留下來在旁邊。"],["主席：來，我們的八大公股行庫董事長。"],["賴委員士葆：時間暫停一下，可以嗎？"],["主席：好，時間暫停。"],["賴委員士葆：請龍頭董董來回答。"],["主席：好，董董事長。"],["賴委員士葆：董董，對。"],["董董事長瑞斌：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：他姓董又是董事長叫董董，很多人不知道，問我為什麼講兩次，因為他是董董。董董是金頭腦，腦筋非常好的，要稱讚你。好，你來兆豐也賺很多錢，可是我們看到最近，因為大家要應付川普的4月2號對等關稅，外資拼命地賣，最近賣了，你們拼命買，可是你們買得很少，賣得很多、買得很少，所以股價就一直跌，你知不知道官股最近賣多少？知道嗎？"],["董董事長瑞斌：抱歉，因為我沒有參與這一方面的這個……"],["賴委員士葆：你都沒有統計？"],["董董事長瑞斌：應該是我們投資處的事情。"],["賴委員士葆：你們只有買幾十億而已，人家賣幾百億啊！"],["董董事長瑞斌：因為現在是沒有護盤吧？"],["賴委員士葆：加減護盤，沒有護盤是你在睜眼說瞎話！來，我現在比較在意的，仔細聽，8位長官、大長官聽好喔，你們1到3月份的加薪都沒有發，為什麼？"],["董董事長瑞斌：報告委員，因為整個財政部是我們的大股東，大股東沒有加薪的情況之下，我們身為人家子公司……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你是官股公司，你是國營事業還是民營化公司？"],["董董事長瑞斌：我們是泛官股的事業。"],["賴委員士葆：你們是民營化公司。"],["董董事長瑞斌：對，民營化，但是是泛官股。"],["賴委員士葆：民營化，奇怪，台積電也有我們政府的官股，國發會的主委就是台積電的董事，台積電它就已經加薪了，為什麼你們可以不加薪？那個臺、土、輸這3家可以被諒解，但是你們其他的都是不能被諒解的，你們公司治理，董事會決定該加薪就加薪，為什麼要拖？為什麼一定要跟著政府走呢？"],["董董事長瑞斌：報告委員，我們的股東結構不一樣啦！"],["賴委員士葆：為什麼不一樣？"],["董董事長瑞斌：因為在台積電裡面官股還是占少數嘛！但是在……"],["賴委員士葆：你們官股是少數啊？"],["董董事長瑞斌：不是，但是官股在我們董事會裡面占的是多數。"],["賴委員士葆：但是沒有過半啊！"],["董董事長瑞斌：是啊，但是在董事會裡面是過半啦！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有過半……"],["董董事長瑞斌：所以在公司治理上，我們還是要尊重的。"],["賴委員士葆：你們的官股在董事會裡面過半，所以就只能按照政府來走，是不是？"],["董董事長瑞斌：對，報告委員，其實我們只是晚一點發，但是如果哪一天整個公務人員調薪的時候，我們當然會回溯的，所以這沒有不發的問題，只是回溯的問題。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道，可以晚一點發啦！來，財政部部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：其實你們都是刻意的晚一點發，都是為了配合大罷免晚一點發，變這樣子啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有這樣的事啊！"],["賴委員士葆：當然是啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有啊！"],["賴委員士葆：你們本來也可以發，按照……"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，臺股……"],["賴委員士葆：我問了主計長，主計長告訴我，很清楚的，本來就可以按照舊的來發。"],["莊部長翠雲：您說我們一般行政機關的公務員，當然我們還是按照舊的發，另外像臺、土、輸三家國營事業的金額，他們已經跟公務員的薪水脫勾了，也不會……是脫鉤了。"],["賴委員士葆：部長，請問你，現在總預算覆議也不過啦，請問你什麼時候可以發，你告訴我。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個要問主計總處啊！"],["賴委員士葆：所以你推給主計總處了？"],["莊部長翠雲：對啊！"],["賴委員士葆：儘快好不好？因為現在萬物齊漲，電價也要漲，水價也要漲，趕快分給人家啦！再回來問董董，績效獎金什麼時候可以發？"],["董董事長瑞斌：我們的獎金，有一定的期程啦！"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候？"],["董董事長瑞斌：績效獎金應該已經發了吧，我們年終獎金已經發了2個月了……"],["賴委員士葆：績效獎金沒有發，年終獎金有發，績效獎金沒有發。"],["董董事長瑞斌：我們有預支1個月，5月份的時候會發，然後會跟員工酬勞……"],["賴委員士葆：大概發幾個月？"],["董董事長瑞斌：我們全部獎金加起來大概9個月。"],["賴委員士葆：9個月？"],["董董事長瑞斌：全部。"],["賴委員士葆：我聽到的是10個月喔！"],["董董事長瑞斌：沒有，沒有，報告委員，是9個月。我們以往曾經，但是因為去年……"],["賴委員士葆：因為我時間到了，請問後面幾位，比兆豐還少的舉手。喔！都比兆豐少喔？所以沒有比兆豐多？比兆豐少1個月的舉手，少2個月的舉手，少3個月的舉手！差不多少2個月啦！你們也努力一點，兆豐都可以發這樣子，你發這樣。","最後一個小問題，請問合庫金的林董事長，以前合作金庫都是在前面數一數二，從你上來以後都是倒數第一名，你要不要講給我聽看看，為什麼這樣子？"],["林董事長衍茂：跟委員報告，合庫最近幾年有在調結構，一些結構……"],["賴委員士葆：你看2018、2019、2020、2021、2022合庫金都不差，雖然不是怎麼樣但至少不會最後一名，可是到了2024你來當董事長時是最後一名，原因是什麼？我告訴你原因，大家都知道媒體也寫了，是什麼？就是員工在抱怨你都只賣保險，其他業務不要，只賣保險，業績掉成這樣，很倒楣的感覺，董事長要不要調整一下啊？"],["林董事長衍茂：跟委員報告，賣保險是所有金融機構都在做的事情，不是只有合庫。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊，你集中在賣保險，這是其中一部分，但不應該集中在這裡，你業務要分散一下嘛！你要不要跟董董去研究一下、跟他參考一下？"],["林董事長衍茂：是，會跟董董再請教。"],["賴委員士葆：你來當董事長，這樣「落衰」，都最後一名，難看，林董事長，難看、不好看，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝賴召委。","接著，我們請郭國文委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159428","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159428","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb017490a7d1bdd2a874aa23c349ee8e693525a0be0b44ec4a35bf4b97d2a4097ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:47:11 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經我們恰拉陸委會這是屬於內部管理事項所以是內部管理事項我們公務人員這個本來就有所謂的中程相關的規定那裡面包含就是公務人員也要恪守誓言中心"},{"start":83.789,"end":93.114,"text":"努力依法律命令所定執行其職務 依法律命令所定所以我要講的是 其實我必須說中華民國是一個法治的國家我們對公務人員要求的忠誠的要求 這是正確的但是我覺得我們還是要有這個法律的精神"},{"start":109.002,"end":113.924,"text":"如果法律沒有明定 這個公務人員本來我們就有很多相關的法律他不能夠違法 違法就要去判 違法就要處罰但是呢 以所謂的內部的這個什麼準則啦 或者陸委會的要求我覺得在這個部分 我覺得是有商榷的餘地"},{"start":131.511,"end":141.32,"text":"那也就是說如果公務人員他願意去做登錄這是他的自由嘛那如果他不願意登錄說實在你願意登錄的他就不會叛國嗎他就不會當間諜嗎未必吧 對不對所以我覺得在這一部分我覺得不要這樣的一個對公務人員如此的肅殺"},{"start":154.651,"end":163.413,"text":"好 另外一個 也是剛才的問題到目前為止 我們軍公教今年加薪還沒有領到嘛沒有領到真正的原因啊過去呢 在今年的年初因為當時的林楚韻委員說說這個軍公教加薪啊 沒有入帳都是因為我們卡總預算但是我當時也提到了因為呢 歷年"},{"start":182.656,"end":207.156,"text":"軍公教加薪不是今年才開始對不對歷年都有加薪但是呢歷年在立法院的總預算他可能都沒有辦法在12月31號就把它全部的通過所以呢過去好幾年的這個實施日期有的時候呢是1月多1月中有的時候會延遲到2月中當然今年今年應該創紀錄了今年應該是最晚領到"},{"start":211.141,"end":237.98,"text":"但是人事總署當時說得非常好因為不要引起我們很多軍公教不必要的恐慌人事總署當時就說啊軍公教加薪要等待總預算通過後回溯發放對不對 這個應該沒有講錯好 那立法院的總預算已經通過了但是呢 因為行政院提出復議案"},{"start":240.262,"end":250.485,"text":"那麼立法院在復議案也處理完成了所以在上個星期3月13號立法院已經再次的送出復議案的結果我剛才要講的是總預算在2月19號就送出去了"},{"start":262.449,"end":278.615,"text":"但是呢為什麼沒有辦法這個正式就是為什麼到現在軍公教仍然拿不到他的調薪的部分呢是因為行政院遲遲沒有送行政那個總統府來公告行政院反而送回給立法院來做複議好來來回回你看"},{"start":281.756,"end":304.549,"text":"又快一個月了但是我們趕快加緊在法定的期限之內在3月13號把附議案送出送出到應該現在是總統府要公告所以基本上要等總統府公告之後這個軍公教才可以拿到他的條新的部分"},{"start":306.095,"end":327.689,"text":"有沒有問題 我剛講的都沒有問題吧沒有啦 本來就要總統府公告的時候我們才能夠繼續往下算每一個人要補多少這是法定的過程嘛 法定的程序啦所以我要講的是 軍公教今年出現歷年來最晚一次才拿到條薪 它當然是回溯"},{"start":329.033,"end":337.584,"text":"是因為總預算變成一個政治性的操作過去總預算從來沒有拿來付益過"},{"start":339.431,"end":351.417,"text":"從未拿來附議過那你拿來附議我們立法院也必須依法去做處理所以現在也送出了我現在算一下時間我剛才去了解最晚最晚總統府應該在這個星期六應該在這個星期六要公告如果不公告的話呢"},{"start":363.484,"end":384.441,"text":"就違反法定程序所以在這邊人事長是不是很確定的說只要總統府公告軍公教立刻可以拿到這個就從1我們可以補發回溯發放從1月份開始發放讓軍公教安心啊"},{"start":385.949,"end":398.957,"text":"我這裡要跟委員報告一下整個預算案的這一次的預算案事實上對很多機關有造成一些自愛燃省的地方啦你們已經講了半天還有造謠的咧我現在在問你軍公教因為我知道廣大的軍公教很關心這個事情啊在流程上是不是總統府公告之後"},{"start":408.963,"end":415.506,"text":"總統府公告之後 我們會發函給各個機關然後各個機關會去試算要補發多少錢就要開始補發了嘛對不對 這都法定程序啊所以我知道 因為星期六就是假日啊我不曉得總統府會不會在明天公告啦"},{"start":427.411,"end":441.961,"text":"所以我要讓所有軍公教安心因為在立法院裡面的大家的政治攻防事實上這次總預算已經變成了一個不是攻防是政治的鬥爭我剛剛講裡面還有很多的謠言太多的部會首長都謠言昨天洪森漢這個勞動部長自己都說我口誤他說什麼育兒今天根本都是錯誤的所以我們要讓所有的軍公教來安心"},{"start":457.171,"end":459.693,"text":"好 那任市長剩下一點時間 請問一下因為現在立法院 我們還有就是有關於國定假日的修法那當然這個 有問內政部長啦 因為這個是在內政委員會在審查中"},{"start":474.344,"end":489.206,"text":"那我們都知道 現在台灣的勞工 價比別人少 薪水比別人低我們可以看到 我們鄰近的各個國家日本 韓國 香港 中國 台灣 國定假日 台灣最少"},{"start":490.127,"end":494.351,"text":"最少只有12天最多的是香港17天萊茲辛斯的排序我們是第44位 只高於中國大陸也比韓國 日本 香港都低"},{"start":509.042,"end":526.852,"text":"可是人家日本 韓國 香港 他們的國定假日都比我們多所以現在呢 我們說還假於民 好 下一頁而且還假於民呢 也得到很多很多的民眾的支持可以看到將近六成民眾支持所以 任市長"},{"start":528.314,"end":547.174,"text":"請問您知不支持我們有更多的在這次檢討裡面有提出更多的國定假日不要讓台灣變成嫁比其他國家少這麼多的一個勞工血汗勞工"},{"start":548.095,"end":569.537,"text":"您支持嗎?我跟委員報告一下,事實上目前國定假日我們是11天,跟新加坡一樣那在立法院在2000年,也就是89年6月30號有做成一個公務人員的每一年休假的天數,大概115到116那116是因為論年的問題"},{"start":571.138,"end":586.557,"text":"所以基本上115的這一個每一年的休假的天數這個在全世界來講相當合理啦事實上哪一天我來說其實很重要的就是放假的部分大家都希望多放幾天啦"},{"start":588.518,"end":603.486,"text":"然後要考慮到各個營業人因為台灣有很多的中小企業的業主他本身的經營的負擔會不會增加很多的面向要同時考量當大家的那一種共識度高的時候我更具體一點問任市長因為這一次修訂裡面當然有很多的假期比如說有教師節"},{"start":610.149,"end":629.024,"text":"那個五一那個勞動節啊還有習近平紀念日還有823很多好但是我請問一下因為很多人覺得不要一國兩制所以五一勞動節能夠變成全國性的法定國定假日您同意嗎"},{"start":630.825,"end":644.232,"text":"呃 報告委員我不反對這個議題啦嗯 為什麼給我一點時間為什麼不反對就是我今天很精確的問你是五一勞動節變成大家全民放假的國定假日因為每次一個家庭啊"},{"start":645.313,"end":673.386,"text":"那個什麼媽媽是老師 爸爸是那個什麼勞工然後有公務員 哇一個家庭亂七八糟的假這樣子我跟委員報告 我沒反對的原因就是因為節日實施方法在內政部在訂嘛這個禮拜一還有下個禮拜三內政委員會都會開會討論事實上基本上我們會尊重整個內政部的一個放假日的一個規劃"},{"start":675.167,"end":685.015,"text":"所以五一勞動節成為法定的假日 國定假日 您同意教師節也變成全國性的國定法定假日 您同意嗎"},{"start":696.943,"end":712.851,"text":"委員你現在提到的就是各個族群的問題必須要去綜合考量本來是勞工現在又有教師有九月三號金人節還有各個不同族群的九三金人節沒有放我現在跟你講確實在放假的"},{"start":714.219,"end":739.392,"text":"確實在放假的 酒吧教師姐姨也有放假所以這個問題為什麼大家要一起討論有一個共識再來推因為大家的看法都不太一樣沒關係 我至少知道你這個勞動節變成全體放假你不反對 非常好我予以高度肯定 好不好謝謝王威委員這個議題他特別聽得很清楚你知道嗎"},{"start":743.035,"end":743.439,"text":"每一年都要討論"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":300,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（9時47分）首先謝謝主席，我第一次到司法及法制委員會有喝到咖啡。"],["主席：知道你要來，所以準備咖啡。"],["王委員鴻薇：這樣喔，謝謝。謝謝主席，請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早安。"],["王委員鴻薇：人事長早安。剛才吳思瑤委員有特別講到，現在有做所謂的忠誠查核，人事長也說應該要做。請問一下，我們現在公務人員相關的法規裡面，哪一條有規定公務人員必須去登錄有關於現在包含陸委會、行政院要求的不能夠有大陸居住證、這個證那個證的登記？現在哪一條有相關規定？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告，經我們洽陸委會，這是屬於內部管理事項。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以是內部管理事項。我們公務人員本來就有所謂忠誠的相關規定，包含「公務員應恪守誓言，忠心努力，依法律、命令所定執行其職務」，是要依法律命令所定。所以我必須要講的是，中華民國是一個法治國家，我們對公務人員的忠誠要求，這是正確的，但是我覺得我們還是要有法律的精神，如果法律沒有明定，公務人員本來就有很多相關的法律，他不能夠違法，違法就要被處罰，但是以所謂的內部準則或者是陸委會的要求，我覺得這個部分是有商榷的餘地。也就是說，如果公務人員願意去做登錄，這是他的自由，如果他不願意登錄，說實在的，願意登錄的人就不會叛國嗎？就不會當間諜嗎？未必吧，對不對？所以在這個部分，我覺得不要這樣對公務人員如此地肅殺。","另外一個也是剛才吳思瑤委員提到的，到目前為止，我們軍公教今年加薪還沒有領到嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：還沒有領到。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒有領到真正的原因，過去，在今年年初，當時林楚茵委員說，軍公教加薪沒有入帳都是因為我們卡總預算，但是我當時也提到了，因為軍公教加薪不是今年才開始，對不對？歷年都有加薪，但是歷年立法院審總預算可能都沒有辦法在12月31號就全部通過，所以過去好幾年的實施日期，有的時候是1月中，有的時候會延遲到2月中，當然今年，今年應該創紀錄了啦！今年應該是最晚領到的。但是人事總處當時說得非常好，為了不要引起很多軍公教人員不必要的恐慌，人事總處當時就說，軍公教加薪要等待總預算通過後回溯發放，對不對？這個應該沒有講錯。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：好。立法院已經通過總預算了，但是因為行政院提出覆議案，覆議案立法院也處理完成了，在上個星期3月13號，立法院已經再次送出覆議案的結果。我剛才要講的是，總預算在2月19號就送出去了，但是為什麼沒有辦法正式……就是為什麼到現在軍公教仍然拿不到他調薪的部分呢？是因為行政院遲遲沒有送總統府來公告，行政院反而送回給立法院來做覆議，來來回回，你看，又快一個月了，但是我們趕快加緊要在法定期限之內，在3月13號把覆議案送出，現在應該是總統府要公告。所以，基本上要等總統府公告之後，軍公教才可以拿到他的調薪的部分，我剛剛講的都沒有問題吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：本來就要總統府公告以後，我們才能夠繼續往下去算他每一個人要補的。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，這是法定的過程，法定的程序啦！所以，我要講的是，今年出現歷年來軍公教最晚一次拿到調薪，當然會回溯，是因為總預算變成一個政治性的操作。過去總預算從來沒有拿來覆議過，從未拿來覆議過，那你拿來覆議，我們立法院也必須依法去做處理，現在也送出了。算一下時間，我剛才去了解，最晚、最晚總統府應該在這個星期六，應該在這個星期六要公告，如果不公告的話，就違反法定程序。所以在這邊，蘇人事長是不是很確定地說，只要總統府公告，軍公教立刻可以拿到，我們可以補發回溯從1月份開始發放，讓軍公教安心？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡要跟委員報告一下，整個預算案的，這一次的預算案事實上對很多機關有造成一些窒礙難行的地方，因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：你們已經講了半天，還有造謠的咧。我現在是在問你軍公教，因為我知道廣大的軍公教人員很關心這個事情，在流程上，是不是總統府公告之後……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：總統府公告之後，我們會發函給各個機關，然後各個機關會去試算要補發多少錢，它是有一個固定的程序……"],["王委員鴻薇：就要開始補發了嘛，對不對？這個都是法定程序。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：它有一個固定的程序。"],["王委員鴻薇：我知道，因為星期六是假日，我不曉得總統府會不會在明天公告，我要讓所有的軍公教安心，因為在立法院裡面大家的政治攻防，事實上這次總預算已經變成了不是攻防喔，是政治的鬥爭，我剛剛講，裡面還有很多的謠言，太多的部會首長都在散播謠言，昨天勞動部長洪申翰自己都說「啊！我口誤」，他說什麼育兒津貼，那個都是錯誤的，所以我們要讓所有的軍公教安心。","人事長，剩下一點時間，請問一下，現在立法院內還有關於國定假日的修法，當然這有問過內政部長，因為法案是在內政委員會審查中。我們都知道，臺灣勞工的假比別人少、薪水比別人低，我們可以看到鄰近的各個國家，日本、韓國、香港、中國相較於臺灣，國定假日臺灣最少，只有12天，最多的是香港有17天；薪資的排序我們是第44位，只高於中國大陸，也比韓國、日本、香港都低，可是人家日本、韓國、香港，他們的國定假日都比我們多，所以現在我們要還假於民，而且還假於民也得到很多、很多民眾的支持，可以看到有將近六成民眾支持。所以，人事長，請問您支不支持在這次的檢討裡面，我們提出更多的國定假日，不要讓臺灣民眾變成假比其他國家少這麼多的血汗勞工，您支持嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告一下，事實上目前我們的國定假日是11天，跟新加坡一樣。立法院在西元2000年，也就民國89年6月30號，有做成一個公務人員每一年的休假天數大概在115到116日，116日是因為閏年之故，所以基本上每一年的休假天數為115日，這個在全世界來講相當合理啦……"],["王委員鴻薇：合理喔？你看我們的假比別人少那麼多耶。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟你講，其實很重要的就是，放假的部分大家都希望多放幾天啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：了解啊，當然，但是我們不能那麼低嘛，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：然後又要考慮到各個營業人，因為臺灣有很多中小企業的業主，他本身經營的負擔會不會增加，要同時考量很多的面向，當大家的共識度高的時候，我們再來推動。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，我更具體一點問人事長，這一次修訂的草案裡面當然有很多的假期，比如說有教師節，有五一勞動節，還有行憲紀念日，還有八二三，很多，但是我請問一下，因為很多人覺得不要一國兩制，所以將五一勞動節變成全國性的法定國定假日，您同意嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：報告委員，我不反對這個議題啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：為什麼不反對？我今天很精確地問你，五一勞動節是否應該變成全民放假的國定假日，否則每次一個家庭，媽媽是老師，爸爸是勞工，然後還有公務員，哇！一個家庭的假就亂七八糟。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，我沒有反對是因為紀念日及節日實施辦法內政部正在修訂，這個禮拜一還有下個禮拜三，內政委員會都會開會討論，基本上我們會尊重整個內政部對放假日的規劃，基本上我們會……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以五一勞動節成為法定的國定假日您同意，那麼教師節……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是，我不反對啦！我沒有說同意。"],["王委員鴻薇：你不反對，很好啊！這點我很高興，大家都聽到，很高興。來，教師節也變成全國性的法定國定假日，您同意嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員，你現在提到的就是各個族群的問題，必須要去綜合考量啦！"],["王委員鴻薇：是。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：本來是勞工嘛，現在又有教師嘛，有9月3號軍人節嘛，還有各個不同族群的也都希望……"],["王委員鴻薇：九三軍人節沒有放，我現在在跟你講確實在放假的。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：確實在放假的，九二八教師節他也希望放假，為什麼這個問題要大家一起討論有一個共識再來推，因為大家的看法都不太一樣啦。"],["王委員鴻薇：沒關係，我至少知道，你對於勞動節變成全體放假，你不反對，非常好，我予以高度肯定，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員。這個議題我從第8屆聽到現在了，你知道嗎？每一年都會討論這個議題。好，謝謝，謝謝王委員。","接下來我們請沈發惠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}},{"id":"159427","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159427","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb01742b7d926a89a1156c3f89dc79e7a25ec8388057f36d6284c7f6e4539bc04505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:41:03 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我請一下部長 郭部長委員好部長好 部長您上任到現在將近8個月嘛 對不對超過超過8個月了 適應這個環境嗎"},{"start":41.798,"end":66.765,"text":"漸漸融入漸漸融入我覺得今天您的回答剛剛前面兩位執政黨委員問您的話題我覺得您感覺上非常非常的謹慎不太像過去的郭志輝先生部長我想我還是針對最近大家關心的議題總預算沒過其實對於"},{"start":70.947,"end":95.584,"text":"台湾整个环境来讲其实影响非常大第一个水电这个就是大家要首先面临到的问题台电的1000亿波普没有在立法院通过那台电的累计亏损已经到4229亿元了这个累计的亏损越来越多就您经营一个公司这么久"},{"start":96.604,"end":110.025,"text":"如果這個虧損達到這樣這公司還能活得下去嗎他如果不做一些體質上或者是財務上的調整這樣的公司經營得下去嗎報告委員如果以我的經驗來講"},{"start":112.174,"end":131.468,"text":"從各個管理面我們來看這個問題是到底今天造成目前的負債是什麼樣的原因我要知道原因才能夠找到問題然後這個找到問題我才能夠對症下藥好嘛那你一定知道台電的原因是什麼嘛對不對就是"},{"start":133.12,"end":149.535,"text":"動漲造成所有的一切都是動漲 只漲工業用電只漲民生用電 只漲用電大戶 千度以上的那所有的民生用電全部動漲的結果立法院也不給撥補 也不給漲價什麼都不要"},{"start":154.212,"end":178.488,"text":"那台電的虧損就會越來越多嘛是不是這樣那我要請教就是說未來我認為調整電價應該是勢在必行啦雖然電價審議委員會還沒有開會但是調整電價應該是勢在必行調整的幅度到什麼程度這個可能還要經過再更詳細的討論嘛部長您同意我的看法嗎完全同意好"},{"start":179.088,"end":191.314,"text":"如果您同意我的看法 我覺得經濟部現在下一步要做的是應該要去研議你們要如何降低民生用電跟小商店因為電價調漲所帶來的負擔"},{"start":196.53,"end":222.27,"text":"你們要怎麼樣去做要怎麼樣去減輕他的負擔有一個東西叫做節電補助但是這個節電補助呢預算也被凍結了那預算凍結的理由是因為要叫你們考慮這個核電重啟所以要叫你們寫一個報告然後要到立法院來專案報告以後節能補助的費用才能恢復所以節能補助很快的他可能就會"},{"start":223.444,"end":248.674,"text":"沒有這些設備沒有這些錢可以用那民生住宅小商店的電價又要漲昨天曾文森董事長說啦如果台電用韓國的電價去收費的話我們到2024年其實是可以盈餘1539億你就微幅調漲你如果比照韓國的電價是作為微幅調漲其實是可以有盈餘的"},{"start":250.848,"end":272.352,"text":"部長如果您看這個表您會怎麼做這個是昨天曾文森講他昨天已經講過了我現在要聽一下您的意見我沒有去看到這個命題我現在把這個PowerPoint放在您的眼前讓您看來文森你要不要那個曾董事長你要不要你要補充說明嗎請董事長補充說明"},{"start":275.66,"end":299.64,"text":"那個報告部長還有報告那個委員喔我是拿現在韓國的電價然後就是2024年韓國的電價然後套在我們的用電度數因為它也是民生電價和工業電價分開計算是我知道所以如果你依照這樣韓國的這個電價的幅度台灣會漲到這樣的幅度嗎會不會"},{"start":303.291,"end":321.822,"text":"我們應該是不用漲那麼高啦我們當然剛才委員所關心的這個CPI的部分我想我們這個是院長也有指示我們希望努力讓國人在物價的通膨上面不要超過2%那電價的調漲多少會影響因素所以我們會想辦法"},{"start":327.796,"end":347.867,"text":"然後來這個努力然後來調整那調整當然是要這個電價委員會的同意不過我們會去細算用什麼樣最適化的不是最好但是最合適的這個方法來提出來然後來請這個委員指導這樣好 部長"},{"start":349.471,"end":372.986,"text":"如果說您剛剛講的這個電價調整的部分還有有待電價審議委員會去審議那這個是你們之前也是您之前說的要到菲律賓去種綠電那這個報告已經送到經濟委員會來了我大概看了一下幾頁的報告我看完以後我其實不太知道到底經濟部在說什麼"},{"start":373.906,"end":389.96,"text":"到底是可行還是不可行因為然後我看了幾大媒體的標題我看到晚上以後我就跟我的助理說那到底是可行還是不可行因為早上看的是不可行下午看的又說是可以然後到晚上看了我已經不知道他可不可以了"},{"start":391.113,"end":414.205,"text":"結果現在又有一個標說 郭之輝部長不放棄 韓可行 未來的成本會下降到底菲律賓重綠電這件事情 除了你們送過來的報告以外經濟部內部有沒有經過很妥適的討論 很深入的討論它到底可不可以 那你說未來的技術或者是價格"},{"start":415.605,"end":436.573,"text":"這個部分你的評估標準是什麼評估基準是什麼部長我讓您說明一下報告委員我想在這個地方謝謝你讓我有機會來說明那我們那一份是可行性分析也就是說去或者不去先做一個可行性分析我們認為這個報告顯示是可行的"},{"start":437.273,"end":451.318,"text":"第二個有一些限制的問題我們在評估我變成要到實地去考察實地去了解才能夠再做更深層的這個計算那麼剛才講說我就回答你這個5塊5的這個問題"},{"start":454.039,"end":475.696,"text":"我們的同仁他們拿的計算方法是現在日本從北海道送到本州的然後一個儲能櫃大概是2.5M的計算方式跟委員報告目前我們國內的廠商可以做到一個儲能櫃5M也就是兩倍"},{"start":476.517,"end":501.903,"text":"日本他們現在可以做到8M那麼我跟日本的這個廠商對接過以後他們跟我講他們可以做到10M也就是說5塊5這個價格當儲能櫃到10M的時候5塊5必須除以4所以他的這個送電回來的價格大概只有1.25那你的10M是現在就可以做還是未來三年可以做"},{"start":503.035,"end":528.881,"text":"您講日本說他可以做到10M 是現在可以做現在是8M年底會到10M今年年底就會到10M所以像這些東西我覺得在你們的所謂的可行性評估報告裡頭是沒有展現我想要再簡單的再問一題這個大概是跟我的地方上的建設是很有關係的因為預算被動預算沒有過新興計畫沒有辦法做"},{"start":532.742,"end":549.58,"text":"部長這個你應該要去了解所有的河川疏浚水利署所做的這些河川疏浚的工作或者是水利的建置的工作防淹水的工作因為預算沒過很多的新興計畫是沒有辦法做的"},{"start":550.22,"end":574.219,"text":"那這個我希望水利署趕快去把它整理出來你們現在所受的影響有哪些我現在講的是六歸老農溪的部分全台灣類似這樣的一個新興的計畫河川的治理計畫是非常多的我認為你們應該把這些整理出來然後讓當地的委員很清楚了解"},{"start":575.881,"end":597.697,"text":"這個對治水對於防災會產生的重大影響啊不要大家在那裡預算山爽的啊然後淹水又來罵政府啊所以我是不是能夠要求水利署你們把你們這些防災防洪的新興計畫受到影響的全部把它名列出來可以嗎"},{"start":599.269,"end":624.379,"text":"這個可以部長我想這個應該要讓民眾很清楚的知道亂山預算對於治災防洪會產生的影響對於我們這項新興計畫六龜老農溪過去88風災的時候受創嚴重還好這幾年有這樣的一個包括前瞻的治水包括各式各樣的治水的計畫"},{"start":626.343,"end":635.238,"text":"那如果預算被刪了以後未來怎麼辦所以我請你們要趕快把這些東西整理出來要讓民眾清楚了解好嗎我們馬上處理謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":122,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時41分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長好。部長，你上任到現在將近8個月，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：超過。"],["邱委員議瑩：超過8個月了，適應這個環境嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：漸漸融入。"],["邱委員議瑩：剛剛前面兩位執政黨委員問你的話題，我覺得今天你的回答非常謹慎，不太像過去的郭智輝先生。部長，我還是針對最近大家關心的議題，總預算沒過其實對於臺灣整個環境來講影響非常大，第一個，水電就是大家首先面臨到的問題，台電的1,000億撥補沒有在立法院通過，台電的累計虧損已經到4,229億元，累計的虧損越來越多，就你經營一個公司這麼久，如果虧損達到這樣的程度，這個公司還能活得下去嗎？它如果不做一些體質上或者是財務上的調整，這樣公司經營得下去嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，如果以我的經驗來講，從各個管理面來看這個問題，造成目前的負債到底是什麼樣的原因？我要知道原因才能夠找到問題，找到問題才能夠對症下藥。"],["邱委員議瑩：好，你一定知道台電的原因是什麼，對不對？"],["郭部長智輝：就是凍漲造成。"],["邱委員議瑩：所有的一切都是凍漲，只漲工業用電，民生用電只漲用電大戶、千度以上的，所有的民生用電全部凍漲的結果，立法院不給予撥補，也不給漲價，什麼都不要，台電的虧損就會越來越多，是不是這樣？"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：我要請教的是，我認為未來調整電價應該是勢在必行，雖然電價審議委員會還沒有開會，但是調整電價應該是勢在必行，至於調整的幅度到什麼程度，可能還要再經過更詳細的討論，部長，你同意我的看法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：完全同意。"],["邱委員議瑩：如果你同意我的看法，我覺得經濟部下一步要做的是，應該要研議如何降低民生用電和小商店因為電價調漲所帶來的負擔，你們要怎麼樣去做、要怎麼樣去減輕它的負擔？有一個政策是節電補助，但是節電補助的預算也被凍結了，預算凍結的理由是因為要叫你們考慮核電重啟，所以你們要寫一個報告，並且要到立法院專案報告以後，節能補助的費用才能恢復，所以節能補助很快可能就會沒有這些設備、沒有這些錢可以用。民生住宅、小商店的電價又要漲。昨天曾文生董事長說了，如果台電用韓國電價去收費的話，我們到2024年其實是可以盈餘1,539億。如果比照韓國的電價是微幅調漲，其實是可以有盈餘的。部長，如果您看這個表，您會怎麼做？"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請曾董事長……"],["邱委員議瑩：沒有、沒有。這是昨天曾文生講的，他昨天已經講過了，我現在要聽一下您的意見。我不會害你啦！"],["郭部長智輝：我沒有看到這個命題，所以……"],["邱委員議瑩：有、有！我現在把這個PowerPoint放在您的眼前，讓您看了。"],["郭部長智輝：是、是。"],["邱委員議瑩：曾董事長，你要補充說明嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：請董事長補充說明。"],["曾董事長文生：報告部長及委員，我是拿現在韓國的電價，就是用2024年韓國的電價套在我們的用電度數，因為它也是民生電價和工業電價分開計算，我們是拿這個來計算、試算後，台電是可以獲利的。"],["邱委員議瑩：是，我知道。如果台電依照韓國電價的幅度，臺灣會漲到這樣的幅度嗎？會不會？"],["郭部長智輝：我們應該是不用漲那麼高啦！當然剛才委員所關心的CPI，院長也有指示，我們希望努力讓國人在物價通膨上面，不要超過2%。電價調漲多少會是影響因素，所以我們會想辦法努力來調整，當然調整是要電價委員會的同意。不過我們會去細算，用什麼樣最適化的，不是最好，但是最合適的方法提出來，然後請委員指導。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。部長，如果您剛剛講的電價調整還有待電價審議委員會去審議。這是你們之前，也是您之前說的要到菲律賓去種綠電，這份報告已經送到經濟委員會來了，我大概看了一下，看完幾頁的報告以後，我其實不太知道到底經濟部在說什麼，到底是可行，還是不可行？我看了幾大媒體的標題，我看到晚上以後，就問我的助理說：到底是可行，還是不可行？因為早上看的是不可行，下午看的又說可以，然後到晚上看，我已經不知道它可不可以了。結果現在又有一個標題說：郭智輝部長喊不放棄、喊可行，未來的成本會下降。到底菲律賓種綠電這件事情，除了你們送過來的報告以外，經濟部內部有沒有經過很妥適地討論、很深入地討論，到底可不可以？你說未來的技術或者是價格，這部分的評估標準是什麼？評估基準是什麼？部長，我讓您說明一下。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，在這個地方謝謝你讓我有機會說明，我們那一份是可行性分析，也就是去或者不去先做一個可行性分析，我們認為這份報告顯示是可行的；第二個，有一些限制的問題，我們再評估，變成要到實地去考察、實地去瞭解，才能夠再做更深層的計算。剛才講到的，我就回答你5塊5的問題，我們同仁拿的計算方法是現在日本從北海道送到本州的，一個儲能櫃大概是2.5MW的計算方式。跟委員報告，目前我們國內的廠商可以做到一個儲能櫃5MW，也就是兩倍，日本現在可以做到8MW。我跟日本的廠商對接過以後，他們跟我講，他們可以做到10MW，也就是5塊5這個價格，當儲能櫃到10MW的時候，5塊5必須除以4，所以它送電回來的價格大概只有1.25。"],["邱委員議瑩：你的10MW是現在就可以做，還是未來三年可以做？您講的日本可以做到10MW，是現在可以做？"],["郭部長智輝：現在是8MW，年底會到10MW。"],["邱委員議瑩：現在是8MW，今年年底就會到10MW？"],["郭部長智輝：對！"],["邱委員議瑩：好。所以像這些東西，我覺得在你們所謂的可行性評估報告裡頭是沒有展現的。"],["郭部長智輝：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：我想要簡單地再問一題，這大概是跟我的地方上建設很有關係，因為預算被凍、預算沒有過，新興計畫沒有辦法做。部長，你應該要去瞭解，所有的河川疏濬，包括水利署所做的河川疏濬工作或者是水利建置工作、防淹水工作，因為預算沒過，很多的新興計畫是沒有辦法做的，我希望水利署趕快去把它整理出來，你們現在所受的影響有哪些。我現在講的是六龜荖濃溪的部分，全臺灣類似這樣的新興計畫、河川治理計畫是非常多的，我認為你們應該把這些整理出來，讓當地委員很清楚瞭解這個對治水、對於防災會產生的重大影響，不要大家在那裡預算刪爽的，淹水又來罵政府啊！我是不是能夠要求水利署，你們把這些防災防洪的新興計畫受到影響的全部明列出來，可以嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：這個可以。"],["邱委員議瑩：好。部長，我想這應該要讓民眾很清楚地知道，亂刪預算對於治水防洪會產生的影響，對於這項新興計畫，六龜荖農溪過去八八風災的時候受創嚴重，還好這幾年有這樣的計畫，包括前瞻的治水、包括各式各樣的治水計畫，如果預算被刪了以後，未來怎麼辦？我請你們要趕快把這些東西整理出來，要讓民眾清楚瞭解，好嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們馬上處理。"],["邱委員議瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。現在請張啓楷委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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目前各個機關還是在持續填血中未來我們會持續在精進等於黑標 僅用電子化的方式這標這麼簡單 也這麼明顯"},{"start":247.186,"end":269.561,"text":"幾行娘本人拒絕確實無台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之一所定的情勢並未在中國大陸設有戶籍領用中國大陸護照身份證定居證或居住證如有不實願負法律責任拒絕人然後基本的職務機關的資訊"},{"start":278.126,"end":282.968,"text":"誠實來申報跟登載我也相信99.9999%的公務員絕對願意對國家忠誠我們的國家是誰是中華民國是台灣台灣是我們的國家"},{"start":294.966,"end":302.712,"text":"台灣是一個國家所以現有的法規公務人員依法守法更是我們的天職本分現在除了我剛剛講國際法20條兩岸人民關係條例國防法規範軍人"},{"start":311.019,"end":338.887,"text":"公務人員任用法第4條第28條都是規範我們的公務同仁以及教育人員任用條例規範的是教育人員法制都有軍公教依法守法這也是天經地義下頁但是很遺憾有人帶頭不拒絕還要去擴散不拒絕是他的權利"},{"start":339.887,"end":364.559,"text":"的這種作為人事總署應當以主管機關來表達你們清楚的立場吧如果對於不簽拒絕你們當然目前沒有裁罰啦沒有懲處但是你們如何去鼓勵正向鼓勵或者是你可以有信心百分之九十九點高高高高大家都願意拒絕"},{"start":365.961,"end":383.481,"text":"其實這個問題就像委員在說的那樣,大部分、百分之九、九點、九九、九,那些都沒問題啦!極少數的這些人,我們還是會請同仁,問了解他有什麼困難,我們會到三天,因為可能他會有其他的一些想法"},{"start":384.282,"end":396.347,"text":"保通嘛 正向溝通嘛那人事總署目前自己因為你要以身作則啊我們人事總署目前的拒絕的狀況會有同仁拒簽嗎"},{"start":397.469,"end":401.332,"text":"我們都簽好了 完全 百分之百真好 叫你第一名 就用這個進行那是基本的這樣我們就也把這樣子的正向的誠實登載的義務我們真的要落實在各個部會所有的軍公教對國家忠誠是必然的義務包括立法委員也是下一頁"},{"start":424.724,"end":443.497,"text":"總預算對於人事總署其實最嚴重你們是重災戶 下一頁這裡有三個預算刪減的設有違憲之處我就不贅述了 下一頁我們來看看人事總署新年度的業務費刪減了3261萬佔21.69%對不對 這數字正不正確正確"},{"start":453.465,"end":461.171,"text":"刪減了兩成二另外還凍結了三千五百三十一萬凍結了三成的業務費看起來都三千多萬 三千多萬沒多啦但是人事總署的業務費全部也不過一億五千零三十三萬換言之凍結了兩成"},{"start":476.565,"end":481.55,"text":"對不起 刪減了兩成二 再凍結了三成加起來你們山東合併是51.69%就是52%的業務 賣丁賣黨這樣有嚴重嗎"},{"start":492.757,"end":494.599,"text":"我們目前有為了因應這個三節運算我們委外的駕駛還有清潔都有減人所以駕駛跟清潔"},{"start":508.571,"end":517.693,"text":"所以也犧牲了一些這些約聘人員的就業機會那我其實當然我們都對於軍公教童人的福利福祉很多機關沒有衛生紙很多機關現在限電連燈光都要調暗我認為對於軍公教童人的服務的環境因為扼山扼洞預算我真的非常的不忍"},{"start":536.798,"end":549.541,"text":"對於人事總署我甚至看到因為你們山洞合併達五成二我發現人事總署聯合辦公大樓北洞的辦公室是不是有個辦公室"},{"start":551.203,"end":568.893,"text":"我們那裡都有五個機關 英雄剛才是外交部領務局 因為大家說他搬的北棟辦公室的人事總署在今年九月恐怕就要關門 沒有辦法維持正常的運作會影響到民眾的辦公 這是你們回給我的資料還有呢"},{"start":570.914,"end":575.677,"text":"影響人事總署辦理全國人事資訊系統的正常運作恐怕因為預算惡動惡砍導致資安的破口因為人事資料系統這都是大家珍貴的服務履歷大家的個資我也發現我長期要求的我倡議催生的心理健康價正在延逸上路包括對於所有的員工的這些支持方案讓他減壓"},{"start":601.895,"end":627.008,"text":"讓他減少他的壓力所以所謂的員工協助方案你們的辦理活動的場次分區訪視都因此要取消或減少這是對於員工的福利受到傷害當然還包括吳斯堯一直要求文康活動不是只有吃吃喝喝我們更要透過文康活動搭配國家政策大家運動 動起來"},{"start":629.289,"end":646.364,"text":"搭配國家政策強化參與藝文活動但是這些都因為業務費被併被刪高達五成二而都必須減降或是中止我認為最嚴重的人事總署是重災戶"},{"start":648.615,"end":670.544,"text":"我剛剛說這幾件是不是你們目前很頭痛的業務受到影響的?那間房子很久了啦,大家也是盡量在站在內桌站在內桌,所以本來我們有一些文康會到比較遠的地方要租車,盡量叫他們去歷史博物館那裡,一例差不多有25個,讓他們問票這樣而已"},{"start":674.185,"end":687.19,"text":"去北美館、歷史博物館、台灣博物館都很好但是遠程的對於一些南部的中部原本規劃長期跟我們有合作的藝文場館或是一些民生古蹟或是文化資產"},{"start":688.17,"end":710.494,"text":"就沒有辦法讓我們的公務同仁去透過我們的文康活動或者是心理健康支持的協助方案也都沒有辦法減壓所以我知道人事總署所有的委員問都會問怎麼減壓怎麼調薪公務人員調薪的法制化這個會期可能會省到但是現在總預算刪得這麼亂公務人員今年加薪3%還沒有辦法領到"},{"start":716.815,"end":736.72,"text":"人事長 加薪3%入帳戶了沒?還沒嗎?希望這個總預算 當然現在立法院審閉然後附議失敗了即將就進入這個公告上路但是已經讓我們軍公教同仁等了很久的3%加薪"},{"start":737.6,"end":755.43,"text":"已經延遲了,現在3月快4月了所以這就是這個國家面對總預算造成的衝擊跟災難大家就辛苦,這是辛苦的一年但是服務國家的熱忱不減我們富有的國家忠誠義務也不會改變大家加油,謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":256,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（9時34分）這樣我也來說西班牙文：Taiwán es un gran país, Taiwán es un país.臺灣是一個獨立偉大的國家。謝謝主席，有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：大家早安，辛苦了。我就以剛剛我說的西班牙文「Taiwán es un país」，臺灣是一個獨立的國家，所以軍公教服務國家，他負有忠誠義務。請問一下人事長，您認為軍公教的忠誠義務是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告一下，我們從小被訓練的是對家中的長輩要孝順、對國家要盡忠，那是我們從小訓練到現在，這是核心價值，但是最近兩岸關係緊張，就是會發生一些比較遺憾的事件，所以我們政府必須要再重申對國家的忠誠，本來這個不是議題的議題啦！現在就變成議題，就代表很多人……"],["吳委員思瑤：它不是議題，它應當是前提嘛！吳思瑤身為中華民國的國會議員、立法委員，我必須對國家忠誠，我必須恪遵憲法，對憲法忠誠，我必須服膺民意，對人民忠誠，當然我也要對我們的法治忠誠，所以當我們在參選的時候，都填了很多的切結書、具結書，聲明我沒有具雙重國籍的身分，我也沒有任何犯罪的前科等等。瑞雄大哥在這裡，我們參選的、民選的，每一次去審查我們登記要參選的都是厚厚一疊的文件，一份一份、一字一字讀、一頁一頁地簽，我具結就代表我負責，我對於國家有效忠的義務。","所以剛剛您已經點到了，當臺灣面對中國，即所謂的境外敵對勢力，對臺灣的步步進逼、滲透，從軍公教下手，已經是這個境外敵對勢力最容易侵入、也是被高度鎖定的族群跟對象，所以軍公教本來就是前提，它不是新生議題，對於國家的忠誠義務，本來就存在。","我們國籍法第二十條怎麼規定的？身為中華民國的公務員不得具有雙重國籍，雖然在2022年我們有放寬修法，但不是全面開放，只是針對特定國家，譬如說阿根廷，其本身享有該國國籍是不得放棄的，這種極特殊的狀況可以排除，否則基本上中華民國的公務員都不應具有雙重國籍，這是國籍法的規定嘛！所以現在因為中國的滲透，現在陸委會發聲，你們銓敘部或是人事總處已經進行了公務員的具結，未具中國身分，希望透過誠實的申報協助來放棄，如果有人有中國身分，現在是只揭露，並不進行裁罰，目前是這個三階段，對不對？就是為了防範國安的漏洞，那你們的執行規劃現在進行到什麼樣的狀態？2月才上路。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告一下，目前各個機關還是在持續填寫中，未來我們會持續再精進，那個表盡量用電子化的方式……"],["吳委員思瑤：這個表很簡單，也很明確，幾項而已：本人具結確實無臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例第九條之一所定的情事，並未在中國大陸設有戶籍，領用中國大陸護照、身分證、定居證或居住證，如有不實，願負法律責任，具結人，然後基本的職務機關的資訊，簡單一張而已。你們現在就是鼓勵各個機關誠實來申報跟登載，我也相信百分之九十九點九九九九的公務員絕對願意對國家忠誠。我們的國家是誰？是中華民國、是臺灣，Taiwán es un país.臺灣是一個國家。","所以現有的法規，公務人員依法、守法更是我們的天職本分，現在除了我剛剛講國籍法第二十條、兩岸人民關係條例、國防法規範軍人，公務人員任用法第四條、第二十八條都是規範我們的公務同仁，以及教育人員任用條例規範的是教育人員，法制都有，軍公教依法守法，這也是天經地義。但是很遺憾，有人帶頭不具結，還要去擴散不具結是他的權利的這種作為，人事總處應當以主管機關來表達你們清楚的立場吧？對於不簽具結，當然目前是沒有裁罰、沒有懲處，但是你們如何去正向鼓勵？還是你可以有信心百分之九十九點九九九九九，大家都願意具結？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：其實這個問題就像委員說的這樣，大部分、百分之九十九點九九九都沒問題啦，極少數的這些人，我們還是會請同仁去詢問、了解他有什麼困難，我們也會來幫忙，因為可能他有其他的一些想法，我覺得……"],["吳委員思瑤：溝通嘛！正向溝通嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：嘿啦。"],["吳委員思瑤：人事總處因為要以身作則，請問人事總處目前的具結狀況如何？會有同仁拒簽嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，我們都簽好了。"],["吳委員思瑤：都簽好了？完全？百分之百？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：嘿！"],["吳委員思瑤：很好，叫你第一名！就用這種精神。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有啦，那是基本的，不是……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，這是基本的，那我們也要把這樣正向的、誠實登載的義務，真的落實在各個部會，所有的軍公教對國家忠誠是必然的義務，包括立法委員也是。","總預算的刪減對於人事總處其實「傷」得很重耶，你們是重災戶耶！我的簡報資料上有3個預算刪減涉有違憲之處，我就不贅述了。我們來看看，人事總處新年度的業務費被刪減了3,261萬，占21.69%，對不對？這數字正不正確？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：正確。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，刪減了二成二，另外還凍結了3,531萬，凍結了三成的業務費。看起來凍三千多萬不多啦，不過人事總處的業務費全部也不過1億5,033萬，換言之，刪減了二成二，再凍結了三成，加起來你們刪凍合併是51.69%，就是將近52%的業務「袂振袂動」，這樣有嚴重嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：業務的運作「卡卡」啦！"],["吳委員思瑤：「很卡」！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前為了因應這個刪減預算，我們委外的駕駛及清潔都有減人，沒辦法，沒錢可以繼續請，所以有減人！"],["吳委員思瑤：所以駕駛跟清潔的部分，也犧牲了一些約聘人員的就業機會。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：約用人員，不是約聘人員。"],["吳委員思瑤：對不起，是犧牲了約用人員的就業機會。當然，對於軍公教同仁的福利福祉，很多機關沒有衛生紙，很多機關現在限電，連燈光都要調暗，對於軍公教同仁的服務環境，因為惡刪惡凍預算，我真的非常地不忍。對於人事總處，我甚至看到因為你們刪凍合併達五成二，人事總處聯合辦公大樓北棟辦公室，你們是不是有個辦公室在北棟？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那一棟總共有5個機關，影響比較大的是外交部領務局，因為是大家共同分攤的。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，你們人事總處聯合辦公大樓北棟辦公室在今年9月恐怕就要關門，沒有辦法維持正常的運作，會影響到民眾的洽公，這是你們回給我的資料。還有，會影響人事總處辦理全國人事資訊系統的正常運作，恐怕因為預算的惡凍惡砍而導致資安的破口，而人事資料系統都是大家珍貴的服務履歷，是大家的個資。我也發現我長期要求的、倡議催生的心理健康假正在研議上路，包括對於所有員工的這些支持方案，讓他們減壓、減少壓力，所以所謂的員工協助方案，你們辦理的活動場次、分區訪視都會因此要減少或取消，這是員工福利受到傷害的部分。當然，還包括吳思瑤一直要求的文康活動，不是只有吃吃喝喝，我們更要透過文康活動搭配國家政策，大家運動、動起來，搭配國家政策強化參與藝文活動，但是這些都因為業務費被凍、被刪高達五成二而必須減項或是中止。我覺得很「傷重」，人事總處是重災戶！人事長，我剛剛說的這幾件，是不是你們目前很頭痛的、受到影響的業務？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：已經煩惱很久了，大家也是儘量在……"],["吳委員思瑤：「儉腸凹肚」？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：「儉腸凹肚」，所以本來我們有一些文康會到比較遠的地方，要租車，現在都叫他們搭捷運去歷史博物館，一天差不多25元，給他們門票，這樣而已。"],["吳委員思瑤：我是很鼓勵啦，去北美館、歷史博物館、臺灣博物館都很好，但是遠程的，對於一些南部的、中部的，原本規劃長期跟我們有合作的藝文場館或是一些名勝古蹟或是文化資產，就沒有辦法讓我們的公務同仁透過文康活動或者是心理健康支持的協助方案，也都沒有辦法減壓。我知道對於人事總處，所有委員都會問怎麼減壓、怎麼調薪，公務人員調薪的法制化在這個會期可能會審到，但是現在總預算刪得這麼亂、這麼「傷重」，公務人員今年加薪3%還沒有辦法領到。人事長，加薪3%入帳戶了沒？還沒嘛！總預算現在立法院審畢，然後覆議失敗了，即將進入公告、上路，但是讓我們軍公教同仁等了很久的3%加薪已經延遲了，現在3月、快4月了，所以這就是這個國家面對總預算造成的衝擊跟災難，大家就辛苦，這是辛苦的一年，大家「儉腸凹肚」，但是服務國家的熱誠不減，我們負有的國家忠誠義務也不會改變，大家加油！謝謝。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員。","接下來請王鴻薇委員質詢。","你們可以常來沒關係，你們官員來，司法及法制委員會都請你們喝咖啡。"],["吳委員思瑤：這是你出錢的喔？"],["主席：你不知道我出的喔！"],["王委員鴻薇：主席出的喔？"],["主席：嗯。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}},{"id":"159425","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159425","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0727f167634047f97b06f2ced2e0bc090ec8388057f36d6285c646c8d84b4e4215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:36:02 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在我來看這都有非常重大的違憲嫌疑啦那當然他現在肆無忌憚啊因為大法官會議的憲法法庭已經人數不足沒有辦法開庭啊現在也不知道誰來決定違憲啊所以這就亂了套啦 亂來啊"},{"start":236.792,"end":243.699,"text":"我們本席在財政委會今年是第14年我們的舉債上限曾經高達38點多將近上限40.6 馬政府時代"},{"start":251.274,"end":270.405,"text":"那當然因為我們的經濟總體成長一直在成長這幾年來財政狀況有變得比較好所以我們的舉債的那個比例佔GDP一直在下降現在只佔前三年GDP平均數的25.8%這是你剛講的跟當年的38.多那是差多少差了十幾個百分點"},{"start":278.75,"end":302.437,"text":"然後現在可以睜眼說瞎話說以前的財政狀況就很好現在財政狀況就很差先有立場再講話就先設見再畫靶我覺得這樣也不好就事論事所以我是覺得說你也很委屈啦因為我知道有一些民意代表很強勢你這邊如果你敢跟他回嘴說這有違憲之嫌恐怕他就不會放你乾休了但是我可以講"},{"start":306.399,"end":331.156,"text":"一樣大家都是委員我在看這就是違憲那至於該不該補發現金或是該不該發消費券其實歷屆政府都有馬政府時代也有蔡政府時代也有但是一個共同的特點都是行政機關行政權根據當時的社會需要去思考去研究之後來決定該不該發這才是正辦嘛"},{"start":335.798,"end":358.38,"text":"歷來都是這樣做嘛這就是我們台灣為什麼要有憲法的原因啊大家要照憲法走啊 不然就亂了套啦那再來 現在儀美論很多啊川普上任之後 他講的叫做對等關稅其實以我的觀點來看喔對等關稅反而對台灣有利啊"},{"start":359.461,"end":382.766,"text":"為什麼呢 因為台灣以前被惡霸中華人民共和國打壓很多的國際之間的條約都沒辦法參加國際之間的關稅領域什麼RCEP或是說什麼東南亞關貿協定都不讓我們參加都是因為政治上的原因所以台灣的廠商才會在20年前 20幾年前要"},{"start":384.306,"end":400.903,"text":"平民外移主要是移到中國去原因就是在這個地方他因為政治的因素打壓台灣的立場所以台灣這個國家的製造業他比較辛苦他常常他的關稅比跟他競爭的國家比起來是比較高的"},{"start":401.943,"end":406.587,"text":"那如果確實能夠落實對等關稅的話所謂對等關稅就是我們課美國多少關稅美國課我們多少關稅定義上是這樣那當然細節是要經過兩國之間的會商跟談判如果這樣子我們在關稅上就不會被競爭國家佔便宜"},{"start":422.54,"end":450.009,"text":"中國的鋼鋁美國不是要給他課關稅嗎說要課25%關稅嗎那一個禮拜中鋼應聲大漲奇怪了對他們課關稅為什麼中鋼會大漲原因是因為我們以前就是在繳25%的關稅啊那現在他把它拉到25%我們競爭地位就平等了嘛所以我們跟這個競爭的時候我們在外銷社競爭的時候就變成對台灣有利"},{"start":451.181,"end":477.334,"text":"所以有的人是先 反正我討厭川普啦我看他在支持台灣 他在對付中國 他很不爽他就找了一對一個理由 從中國那邊發動以美論然後利用各種管道滲透到台灣來讓大家都知道 是不是美國對我們很不好美國有對我們不好嗎我們每一年給人家貿易順差700多億 去年"},{"start":478.659,"end":497.854,"text":"賺了人家兩兆五千億的台幣國際貿易在邏輯上在原理上是要追求平衡的如果有一個國家每一年賺你台灣六七百億的美金的外匯那今年累月台灣也會叫啊這樣顯不公平嘛"},{"start":499.073,"end":524.022,"text":"對不對所以我是覺得我們一方面是面對國際現實我們要選邊站隊我們當然是要站在民主自由人權的國家這一邊一方面我們國家的作為也要讓人家看出是一個負責任的國家我們已經不是以前那種開發中國家那種心態對等關稅是一個很合理的標準啊細節當然要好好來談啊"},{"start":526.043,"end":553.179,"text":"那我們台灣要走出去如果對人家的貿易寸差這麼大的時候想辦法要多從他的國家採購物品或是雙方面的貿易經貿要繼續加深然後盡量在中間求取平衡所以大宗物資採購如果一樣的條件我們當然就應該優先跟他買能源的採購條件相同我們優先跟他買甚至國防武器的採購"},{"start":554.62,"end":577.497,"text":"那麼金融帳也一樣啊盡量雙方面之間我們要增加對他的投資啊所以賴總統就有呼籲說台灣的廠商如果你算一算覺得合理應該增加對美國的投資是不是有講過這個沒有錯我們應該國際間追求貿易的平衡是一個正常的事這是在展現台灣是一個國際之間負責任的經貿大國的一個態度"},{"start":579.959,"end":589.945,"text":"所以這個不是只有說因為美國要求我們不是因為這樣我們如果沒有照世界的標準在世界的舞台上面我們就不能跟人家講說台灣can't help"},{"start":591.943,"end":618.06,"text":"我們有能力幫助人家我們至少做到平等之後我們有能力還要再幫助更弱小的國家被打壓被欺負的國家這樣才是正確的心態嘛大家才會說你台灣人了不起啊走到哪裡都被人家稱讚我們這個護照出去那麼多國免簽才有道理啊那台灣如果不負責任就是要一個態度就是我就是打算佔便宜人家久了之後人家也不會高興嘛"},{"start":619.846,"end":637.811,"text":"所以我是覺得說現在的官很為難因為你的回答稍不得體或是說其實很得體但是只是你的用詞不照他的標準就有可能被霸凌現在都要求說公務員不要被霸凌但是有時候民意代表都會霸凌公務員霸凌官員"},{"start":639.213,"end":655.781,"text":"大家應該是在這個地方平等的就事論事我再次跟你強調不要偷換概念你們財政部所屬的單位你要通令什麼還稅於民啊 什麼超增啊這個在你們體系以後這個詞都不能用這個都是錯誤的觀念啦 好不好 加油 謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":225,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時36分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好！"],["吳委員秉叡：部長早！我是覺得有一些名詞的使用要正確，不要有置換的概念。第一個，我還要再一次的提醒，中華民國是租稅法定主義，也就是我們國家要收的每一筆稅金、每一毛錢都必須法律有規定，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，都是依法有據的。"],["吳委員秉叡：法律有規定徵收，可不可以不徵收？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然不行。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以沒有什麼叫超徵嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：是實收數比預算數多，這才是正確的概念嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我拜託財政部所屬的單位，以後不要用「超徵」這兩個字，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，當然不能用超徵，我們每一塊錢每一毛錢都是依法課徵，沒有所謂的超徵。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以是實收數高於預算數。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，也就是實收數高於預算數。"],["吳委員秉叡：第二，我反對還稅於民的講法，無論過去或是未來有沒有要普發現金，都不叫還稅於民。要把錢還給繳稅的人，那叫還稅於繳稅者，才叫「還稅於民」嘛！那還最多的應該是台積電，它繳最多，怎麼會是大家普發呢？零歲到還未成年的小朋友還沒有繳稅，他們有沒有普發現金？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然是有。"],["吳委員秉叡：那叫做還稅給他嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是啊！"],["吳委員秉叡：所以不要再用還稅於民這四個字，我也請財政部不要用還稅於民這四個字，這是錯誤的概念。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：這是一個誤導。再來，本院有審議預算的權利，但是我們沒有提出預算的權利，所以憲法裡明文規定，立法委員做預算審查的時候，不可以為增加預算之提案，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：剛剛有委員講112年有普發，為什麼現在就不可以？就是你講的時空環境不一樣，那誰決定？當然是行政權決定。其實預算跟人事是行政權的兩大核心，今天如果行政權考量臺灣的經濟需要加速發展，或是說我們消費不振，無論是要發消費券、無論是要發現金，這都是行政機關的提案，必須先提特別條例到本院來審議，經過本院審議通過之後，才根據特別條例編列預算再到本院審議，程序是不是這樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員說的是。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果立法機關脫法弄一個法律案，其實在搞預算，就我來看，這都有非常重大的違憲嫌疑啊！當然它現在肆無忌憚，因為大法官會議的憲法法庭已經因人數不足沒有辦法開庭，現在也不知道誰決定違憲，所以這就亂了套、亂來啊！本席在財政委員會今年是第14年，我們的舉債上限曾經高達百分之三十八點多，將近上限40.6%，誰？馬政府時代。因為我們的總體經濟一直在成長，這幾年來財政狀況有變得比較好，所以我們舉債占GDP比例一直在下降，現在只占前三年GDP平均數的25.8%，這是您剛講的。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：跟當年的三十八點多那是差多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：差了十幾個百分點，然後現在可以睜眼說瞎話說以前的財政狀況叫很好，現在財政狀況叫很差，先有立場再講話，就先射箭再畫靶，我覺得這樣也不好，要就事論事。所以我覺得你也很委屈，因為我知道有一些民意代表很強勢，如果你敢跟他回嘴說這有違憲之嫌，恐怕他就不會放你甘休了嘛！但是我可以講，大家一樣都是委員啊！我在看這就是違憲，至於該不該普發現金，或是該不該發消費券，其實歷屆政府都有，馬政府時代有、蔡政府時代也有，但是共同的特點都是行政機關、行政權根據當時的社會需要，基於思考及研究之後，再來決定該不該發，這才是正辦，歷來都是這樣做嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：這就是我們臺灣為什麼要有憲法的原因，大家要照憲法走，不然就亂了套了。","再來，現在疑美論很多，川普上任之後，他講的「對等關稅」，以我的觀點來看，對等關稅反而對臺灣有利，為什麼呢？因為臺灣以前被惡霸「中華人民共和國」打壓，我們都沒辦法參加很多國際之間的條約、關稅領域RCEP，或是東南亞關貿協定，都是因為政治上的原因，所以臺灣的廠商才會在二十幾年前拚命外移，主要是移到中國，原因就是在這個地方嘛！它因為政治的因素打壓臺灣的立場，所以臺灣的製造業比較辛苦，關稅常常比其他競爭的國家高，如果能夠確實落實對等關稅，所謂對等關稅就是我們課美國多少關稅，美國就課我們多少關稅，定義上是這樣，當然細節是要經過兩國之間的會商跟談判，如果這樣子，我們在關稅上就不會被競爭國家占便宜。美國不是要課中國鋼鋁25%的關稅嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：那個禮拜中鋼應聲大漲，奇怪啦！對它們課關稅，為什麼中鋼會大漲？原因是我們以前就在繳25%的關稅，那現在把它們拉到25%，我們競爭地位就平等了嘛！所以在外交競爭的時候，就變成對臺灣有利。有的人反正是討厭川普，看他在支持臺灣、對付中國，他很不爽，就找了一堆理由，從中國那邊發動疑美論，然後利用各種管道滲透到臺灣，讓大家都覺得是不是美國對我們很不好，美國有對我們不好嗎？我們每年對人家貿易順差七百多億，去年賺了人家2兆5,000億的新臺幣，國際貿易在邏輯上、原理上是要追求平衡的，如果有個國家每年賺臺灣6、700億的美金外匯，積年累月，臺灣也會叫啊！這樣顯不公平嘛！對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我覺得一方面是面對國際現實，我們要選邊站隊，當然是要站在民主自由人權國家的這一邊，另一方面是我們國家的作為，也要讓人家看出是一個負責任的國家，我們已經不是以前開發中國家的那種心態，對等關稅是一個很合理的標準，細節當然要好好談，那我們臺灣要走出去，如果對人家的貿易順差這麼大的時候，想辦法要多從它的國家採購物品或是雙方面的經貿要繼續加深，然後儘量在中間求取平衡。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，貿易平衡。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以大宗物資採購、能源採購，甚至國防武器的採購，如果條件一樣或相同，我們當然應該優先跟它買，金融帳也一樣，儘量雙方之間，我們要增加對它的投資，所以賴總統就有呼籲臺灣的廠商，如果算一算覺得合理，應該增加對美國的投資，是不是有講過這個？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有錯，國際間追求貿易的平衡，應該是一個正常的事。"],["吳委員秉叡：這是在展現臺灣是一個國際之間負責任經貿大國的態度。"],["莊部長翠雲：負責任，是。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以不是說因為美國要求我們，不是因為這樣，我們如果沒有照世界的標準在世界的舞臺上，就不能跟人家講「Taiwan Can Help」，我們有能力幫助人家，至少做到平等之後，有能力還要再幫助更弱小、被打壓、被欺負的國家，這樣才是正確的心態嘛！大家才會說你臺灣人了不起，走到哪裡都被大家稱讚，我們這個護照有那麼多國免簽，才有道理啊！如果臺灣就是個不負責任的態度，就是打算占便宜，久了之後，人家也不會高興嘛！","我覺得現在的官員很為難，因為你的回答稍不得體，或是其實很得體，但是你的用詞不照他的標準，就有可能被霸凌，現在要求公務員不要被霸凌，但是有時候民意代表都會霸凌公務員、霸凌官員。大家應該是在這個地方平等的就事論事。我再次跟你強調不要偷換概念，你們財政部所屬的單位要通令，什麼還稅於民啦、什麼超徵啦，在你們體系以後這個詞都不能用，都是錯誤的觀念啦，好不好？加油，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝秉叡。","接著請賴士葆召委發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159422","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159422","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb06f5539cb89625dfb56c3f89dc79e7a25ec8388057f36d62846decef9d92b3ed25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"09:31:59 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謝謝趙薇 請郭部長郭部長好 部長 部長跟所有的經濟團隊辛苦了我先請教一下 其實在野黨在去年的1月25號的時候就講到要讓政府找不到人來當部長那部長你同意這樣的看法嗎要讓政府找不到人來當部長"},{"start":38.24,"end":64.538,"text":"不便回答不便回答啦我當然認為是不適合的啦因為部長是一個重要的職務啦每一個部長都是國家重要的公職那應該要讓所有優秀的人才更多人才願意進到公部門來擔任部長擔任次長擔任所有重要的公職這個國家才會更好所以我絕對不認同這樣看法不論哪一黨在執政我都不認同找不到人來當部長絕對這不是一個好事情但是我看到昨天已經國民黨已經在開記者會"},{"start":69.041,"end":90.276,"text":"部長你會受到影響嗎我擔任這個公職我想是有我的這個理念那目前為止沒有受到什麼影響我想這個每個人的看法都有他自己的這個角度那有他的看法但是我在努力的做為這個國家"},{"start":92.077,"end":109.055,"text":"為我們經濟部的同仁大家一起努力希望能夠這個完成我們大家要努力的這個目標所以部長今天有很多可能有人會不斷的要你下台要你離開你不會受到影響這個為國家奉獻為國家付出這個心念不會受到影響"},{"start":109.896,"end":137.829,"text":"因為委員你已經在這邊支持我一起加油啦我認為不斷的更迭絕對不是好事情啦讓部長做不下去讓沒有人敢來當部長絕對不是好事啦這國家不會前進但是當然我也有提醒部長啦就是我會建議部長就多做少說啦其實你是企業家出身的企業家跟政務關係有一點不一樣企業家暢所欲言沒有關係不會有什麼但是部長沒講出來的一句話可能都會被高度檢視"},{"start":138.729,"end":161.139,"text":"甚至有些是實際上也許是這樣但是部長的角度其實並不適合這樣講所以裡面看到過去來 部長已經講過電價不是越便宜越好當電價越便宜大家越浪費電包括川普只當一任 影響有限包括美國對台灣晶片課徵百分之百關稅不一定不合理包括蒙古症等等這些"},{"start":162.279,"end":188.531,"text":"報告委員我想這裡面有很多都是這個作者的斷章取義啦大概我應該是要讓我整段都能夠這個報告清楚那我想大家就會知道我的原意是什麼但是就那幾個字來斷章取義我覺得這個是有一些偏頗啦我還是希望說事實"},{"start":189.631,"end":209.882,"text":"就是事實我在講的部分當然有很多的人他不會認同但是時間久了他一定認同我的看法部長我會建議的是這樣這個生態上面他很容易就是會擷取你從前的一段話所以我還是會建議部長在某些關鍵性的字句還是要謹慎小心"},{"start":210.762,"end":233.339,"text":"就是謝領袖其實是沒有關係但是這部長他不會整段給你的他會只抓你中間那一段敏感性的次據啊這個都會影響到整個政府的一些好不好 請部長就是我認知不清所以我會改進好 謝謝部長那再來我想請教的是其實電價的部分其實大家很敏感我們看到各國其實在俄烏戰爭之後都是在"},{"start":234.54,"end":254.075,"text":"這個補貼的方式 包括日本補貼的7000億 包括德國補貼的1兆包括法國也補貼了7000億 那其實我們也採取這樣的策略 希望穩定住物價啦穩定住整個電價的部分 那但是卻不斷的被攻擊啦 攻擊這個能源政策我想問的是 部長啦 接下來這個電價的部分會調動嗎"},{"start":257.257,"end":275.199,"text":"報告委員我想電價調動是電價審議委員的工作我們會盡量收集所有的訊息也會請參與電價審議委員的這些提供他們正確的訊息讓由他們來做判斷"},{"start":276.6,"end":292.639,"text":"這段時間其實已經撐很久了啦台電撐很久了就因為這個整個有原因故料上漲之後撐了很久那也本來是期望得到政府的支持而進來但是顯然並沒有得到那我個人的看法我覺得其實穩定住物價這件事情是相當重要因為一旦"},{"start":293.48,"end":309.219,"text":"漲上去就回不來了啦 漲上去回不來所以我個人會希望是 電價先不要漲你等到七月新民意出來新的民意會去展現出來之後新的民意去做出最後的決定再來考慮因為電價一旦調漲特別是這些民生跟基礎的一旦調上去"},{"start":310.5,"end":333.479,"text":"電價上去就回不來了很多的已經指出來了其實每條1%到6%的電價會調漲了多少的整個物價的波動這個一上去就回不來了那對於整個民生對整個都會產生相當大的影響特別是現在地方上的物價蠢蠢欲動甚至有的已經動起來了那我希望在電價這一塊還撐得住的狀況下能不能等到了下一個階段再來做整體的這個思考"},{"start":334.44,"end":352.118,"text":"新的民意即將出來等新的民意做出最後的決定如果新的民意認為台電就是這個政府不該撥補台電就是應該漲電價那我們尊重這個新的民意決定但如果新的民意認為其實台電應該由政府給予撥補穩定住物價而台電不要漲電基本的這個民生電價那我們認為台電還有機會來做這個調整"},{"start":356.643,"end":380.143,"text":"部長同意這樣的看法嗎謝謝委員的指導我們會來參考提供給這個電價審議委員做判斷我希望這個部分納進去做一個參考好不好就是七八月新民意會有出現那新的民意出來之後我認為這個是一個我還是希望以國家為重因為一旦動了其實就回不來世界各國也並不是笨蛋嘛為什麼大家都採行用補貼"},{"start":380.583,"end":407.584,"text":"的政策盡量減少減少這個調漲但很多還是調了但是盡量減少調漲他就希望穩定那台灣的現在很多的整個經濟的狀況也是來自於我們很穩定的這個物價的這個策略那再來我再問一下現在的核能的部分有很多人提到那當然核能的安全核廢的處理跟民意其實這三個很關鍵的問題部長怎麼看未來的核能的部分的思考對新的核能我們都可以參與討論那我們的"},{"start":410.066,"end":431.502,"text":"我們的這個條件就是說剛才委員所指教的這部分安全、無力然後核廢料可以處理然後大家有共識特別是新的核能我們都歡迎討論新的技術出來但是它還是必須確立在核能的安全上面同時核廢料的處理必須大家是有共識的"},{"start":432.242,"end":460.871,"text":"那更重要的是社會上的共識要去產生非核家園還在法裡面這個還是確立的所以我認為這個部分都是要經過很多的一個溝通的過程所以我們希望整個整理思考那最後一個我再請教一下我們這個高雄的中油的總部現在雖然因為這個涉及已經移到了高雄去了但是中油的總部實質南遷什麼時候會來完成我是不是請上位董事長跟你們報告"},{"start":462.182,"end":466.769,"text":"報告委員就是中油公司在105年戶籍都已經搬到高雄"},{"start":468.053,"end":491.292,"text":"至於說實質南遷的部分目前是還沒有規劃不過我們再看一個進度就是我們在高雄煉油廠這邊新蓋的那個南部企業大樓那麼我們加速改辦預定在119年年中已經會完成那麼在這個時間點或許是一個可以相對考慮的一個事項"},{"start":493.177,"end":520.438,"text":"部長 董事長我也希望朝這個方向來推動當你的工廠第一線都是在高雄在南部的時候管理單位越趨近於你的工廠你的返道是更好做管理另外一方面也跟大家同在那另外一方面是這些對於整個當地的部分都有相當大的一個幫助那既然這個時程已經抓出來了我希望未來實質南遷來展現出跟"},{"start":521.118,"end":536.681,"text":"第一線站在一起跟第一線管理也在第一線那台北這個新計畫區的位地段相當的好我相信他不管是出租或什麼都會有非常好的效益我認為這是一個對國家對中國最好的方向部長同意這樣的方向嗎是我們朝這個方向來努力好謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":91,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（9時32分）謝謝召委，請郭部長。"],["主席：郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長跟所有的經濟團隊辛苦了。我先請教一下，其實在野黨在去年1月25號，有講到要讓政府找不到人來當部長，部長同意這樣的看法嗎？要讓政府找不到人來當部長。"],["郭部長智輝：不便回答。"],["賴委員瑞隆：不便回答？我當然認為是不適合的啦！因為部長是一個重要的職務，每一個部長都是國家重要的公職，應該要讓所有優秀的人才、更多人才願意進到公部門來擔任部長、擔任次長，擔任所有重要的公職，這個國家才會更好，所以我絕對不認同這樣的看法，不論哪一黨在執政，我都不認同，找不到人來當部長絕對不是一個好事情。但是我看到昨天國民黨已經在開記者會，要求郭部長下臺。部長，你會受到影響嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：我擔任這個公職，我想是有我的理念啦！目前為止沒有受到什麼影響，我想每個人的看法都有他自己的角度，有他的看法，但是我在努力的做，為這個國家、為經濟部的同仁，大家一起努力，希望能夠完成我們要努力的目標。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以部長，今天可能有很多人會不斷地要你下臺、要你離開，你不會受到影響，為國家奉獻、為國家付出，這個信念不會受到影響？"],["郭部長智輝：是，因為委員你已經在這邊支持我，讓我信心大增。"],["賴委員瑞隆：一起加油啦！我認為不斷地更迭絕對不是好事情，讓部長做不下去，沒有人敢來當部長，絕對不是好事，國家不會前進。但是我也要提醒部長，我會建議部長多做少說，你是企業家出身的，企業家跟政務官其實有一點不一樣，企業家暢所欲言沒有關係，不會有什麼，但是部長每講出來的一句話，可能都會被高度檢視，甚至有些實際上也許是這樣，但是部長的角度並不適合這樣講。過去以來部長已經講過電價不是越便宜越好，當電價越便宜，大家越浪費電；包括川普只當一任，影響有限；包括美國對臺灣晶片課徵百分之百關稅不一定不合理；包括蒙古症等等。"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我想這裡面有很多都是作者的斷章取義，應該是要讓我整段都能夠報告清楚，我想大家就會知道我的原意是什麼，但是就用那幾個字來斷章取義，我覺得有一些偏頗，我還是希望事實就是事實，當然我講的部分，有很多人不會認同，但是時間久了，他一定認同我的看法。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，這個生態上面很容易會擷取你中間的一段話，所以我還是會建議部長在某些關鍵性的字句還是要謹慎小心。"],["郭部長智輝：當然，我會謹言慎行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果是企業領袖，其實是沒有關係，但如果是部長，他不會整段給你的，他會只抓你中間那一段敏感性的字句，這個都會影響到整個政府，請部長小心。"],["郭部長智輝：這是我認知不清，所以我會改進。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝部長。再來，我想請教的是電價部分，其實大家很敏感，我們看到各國在俄烏戰爭之後都是用補貼的方式，包括日本補貼7,000億，德國補貼1兆，法國也補貼了7,000億，我們也採取這樣的策略希望穩定住物價，穩定住整個電價，能源政策卻不斷地被攻擊。我想問的是，部長，接下來電價會調動嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，電價調動是電價審議委員的工作，我們會儘量蒐集所有的訊息，也會提供參與電價審議委員這些正確的訊息，由他們來判斷。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這一段時間其實已經撐很久了，整個原物料上漲之後，台電撐很久了，本來是期望得到政府的支持，但是顯然並沒有得到。我個人的看法是穩定物價這件事情相當重要，因為一旦漲上去就回不來了，所以我個人希望電價先不要漲，等到7月新民意出來，新的民意展現出來之後，由新的民意去做出最後的決定，再來考慮。因為電價一旦調漲，特別是這些民生基礎的一旦調上去，電價調上去就回不來了，很多的報告已經指出，每調漲1%到6%的電價會帶動多少的物價波動，一上去就回不來了，對於整個民生都會產生相當大的影響，特別是現在地方上的物價蠢蠢欲動，甚至有的已經動起來了。我希望在電價這一塊還撐得住的狀況下，能不能等到下一個階段再來整體的思考？新的民意即將要出來，等新的民意做出最後的決定，如果新的民意認為政府不該撥補，台電就是應該漲電價，我們尊重新民意的決定，但是如果新的民意認為其實台電應該由政府給予撥補，穩定住物價，而台電不要漲基本的民生電價，我認為台電還有機會來調整，部長同意這樣的看法嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的指導，我們會參考，並提供給電價審議委員來判斷。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望這個部分納進去作為參考，7、8月就有新的民意出現，新的民意出來之後，我還是希望以國家為重，因為一旦動了其實就回不來了，世界各國也並不是笨蛋，為什麼大家都採行補貼的政策，儘量減少調漲？當然很多還是調了，但是儘量減少調漲就是希望穩定，臺灣現在整個經濟狀況也是來自於我們很穩定的物價策略。","再來，我要問核能的部分，有很多人提到，核能安全、核廢處理和民意其實是三個很關鍵的問題，部長怎麼看未來核能部分的思考？"],["郭部長智輝：對於新的核能，我們都可以參與討論，我們的的條件就如同剛才委員所指教的，安全無虞、核廢料可以處理以及大家有共識，對於新的核能，我們都歡迎討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：特別是新的技術出來還是必須確立在核能安全上面，同時核廢料的處理必須大家是有共識的，更重要的是社會上的共識要產生，非核家園還在法裡面，這個還是確立的，所以我認為這個部分都要經過很多的溝通過程，所以我們希望能夠整體思考。","最後，我再請教一下高雄的中油總部，現在雖然設籍已經移到高雄，但是中油的總部實質南遷什麼時候會完成？"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請中油董事長跟您報告？"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，請。"],["方董事長振仁：報告委員，中油公司在105年就已經把戶籍搬到高雄，至於實質南遷的部分，目前還沒有規劃，不過我們在看一個進度，就是我們在高雄煉油廠新蓋的南部企業大樓，我們會加速趕辦，預定在119年年中以前會完成，這個時間點或許是一個可以相對考慮的事項。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長、董事長，我也希望朝這個方向來推動，當你的工廠第一線都是在高雄、在南部的時候，管理單位越趨近於工廠，反倒更好管理，另外一方面也跟大家同在，而且對於當地的部分都有相當大的幫助。既然這個時程已經抓出來了，我希望未來實質南遷展現出跟第一線站在一起，管理也在第一線。臺北信義計畫區的地段相當好，我相信不管是出租或什麼都會有非常好的效益，我認為這是一個對國家、對中油都是最好的方向，部長同意這樣的方向嗎？"],["郭部長智輝：是，我們朝這個方向來努力。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝部長。"],["主席：現在請邱議瑩委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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是不是請財政部莊部長好 請莊部長"},{"start":21.57,"end":46.084,"text":"委員長部長早部長我請教因為稅收超徵創新高那兩個禮拜前對於本黨主張全民普發現金一萬元那本席也在總質詢的時候建議行政院提出對岸送立法院來討論卓院長當時也表示會朝這個方向來走"},{"start":47.425,"end":68.755,"text":"但是根據上個禮拜一 財委會舉辦的稅收超徵 還稅移民的公聽會財政部提出三大理由 反對的事態演進請問部長 財政部是不是吃了襯托 鐵了心 不甩卓院長的看法"},{"start":70.475,"end":80.581,"text":"跟委員報告首先對於我們的稅客收入優於預期那我們第一個當然是要減少舉債然後增加還債剩下的會到稅計剩餘去那如果在維持我們的財政的量能而且能夠保有財政韌性我們有餘的這個稅計剩餘要怎麼樣的運用那委員那一天在總諮詢也有提到您有相關的草案提案"},{"start":94.969,"end":110.402,"text":"那也認為說行政院可以提出相關的對談但是你們沒有提出來啊對那這個部分呢至於怎麼樣的運用那一天院長也說了會再考量而且會研議那我想這部分的運用行政院也在考量但是他是說朝這個方向去走"},{"start":110.862,"end":137.437,"text":"第一個方向第一個就是我們要考量國家長遠的一個發展第二個就是說第一個我們國家真正的需要施政的優先順序譬如說增強國防的自主能力或照顧民生照顧弱勢等等各種措施可以來做考量那今年國防各方面也都有增加預算啊對那這個部分我想這個部分行政院會就國家整體的一個發展來看這個財政要怎麼樣的做合理的運用還是那個莊部長是"},{"start":140.839,"end":164.296,"text":"你跟卓院長是不是扮演黑白臉啊在國會殿堂對全民打假球啊會不會這種狀況沒有這樣的一個情況沒有沒有這個情況而且有關相關的稅計剩餘也就是說稅收超過預期跟財政有剩餘這個是兩件事應該要等到決算以後才真正能夠算出來一個數據來那至於怎麼樣的運用我覺得會從國家整體發展來再考量"},{"start":167.739,"end":193.96,"text":"好 那我請教你對於在野黨提出普發現金財政部有三大理由來反對甚至於把普發現金貼上還稅於民常態化的標籤那本席有幾點疑問我來請教部長112年為了普發現金財政部當時的主張與全民共享過去經濟發展的成果整體所需的經費將以稅計勝於支應"},{"start":197.489,"end":214.646,"text":"不會增加舉借債務甚至於還進一步來表示財政部配合國家發展的需要妥適應用財政政策來維繫整個經濟的穩定成長"},{"start":217.308,"end":227.993,"text":"並利用經濟成長來帶動稅收的增長適時來增加還債所以普發現金有理那我請問部長"},{"start":229.959,"end":246.052,"text":"為何114年的今天明明超徵稅收比111年還要多那在野黨提出普發現金就變成破壞財政紀律就變成舉債發現金的餘力進一步來說難道112年113年政府舉債過多沒有積極來還債所以才反對普發現金你的看法呢"},{"start":260.323,"end":284.734,"text":"跟委員說明第一個一百一十三年的稅客收入就屬於中央的部分並沒有比一百一十一年來的高一百一十一年屬於中央部分是四千零二億但是在一百一十三年屬於中央的是三千七百五十七億所以沒有比一百一十一年高第二個普發現金不宜常態化這個部分是我們一直主張的也就是說"},{"start":286.234,"end":310.764,"text":"這個普發現金當時有它的社會背景也就112年的時候我們行政院訂定了一個疫後強化經濟跟社會韌性全民共享經濟成果成果的特別條例在裡面有普發現金每人6000元那個時候第一個是因為經過疫情那在疫情期間呢因為台灣的防疫工作做得非常的好所以我們的製造業沒有停工整個經濟發展經濟的成果非常的亮眼那第二"},{"start":314.465,"end":333.022,"text":"另外有一些產業事實上也有受到疫情的衝擊所以這個部分應該要強化整個經濟跟社會的韌性所以把經濟成長的果實也和全民來共享我想那個當時有這樣的一個背景部長 濁世驚灰啦 驚灰財政部對普發現金的立場會不會讓人產生這種濁世驚灰的錯覺 會不會"},{"start":341.156,"end":364.541,"text":"不會因為我們一直認為說這個稅款超過預期是因為經濟成長以及去年來說是股市熱絡那這些這個超過預期這個稅款在相關的法制裡面不管預算法或公共債務法都有已經有明確的規定都有明確規定那至於普發現金這個部分112年有當時他的一個政策他113年是不是1213舉債過多是不是這個樣子嗎"},{"start":369.002,"end":395.967,"text":"沒有舉債過多我們積極的還債其實我們的債務比例已經一直在下降已經到但是過去一兆八千多億財富多少而已到113年是25.8的債務比例遠跟40.6是差距很大的是那個部長反對還稅移民常態化請問部長對於常態化的先決條件是不是要在超徵稅收的條件下才有可能是不是"},{"start":396.647,"end":401.628,"text":"如果監察院在110年的調查報告指出來特別預算有常態化的現象並提到特別預算有胡編破壞整個預算體制的事情"},{"start":415.512,"end":427.365,"text":"那請問部長行政院的特別預算有常態化的餘率難道就不會有破壞財政紀律長期影響整個政府債務的餘率嗎難道這個就不會嗎"},{"start":431.049,"end":456.162,"text":"一個總預算和特別預算它兩者是相輔相成那預算法裡面也有規定因應國家的一個重大特殊的事故或推動了重大的政事可以編列特別預算那這個特別預算呢它是一個長期一個比較多年期的一個不是分年來做而且它的舉債都要跟總預算一樣舉債都要納入該縣的管制它不會去突破這個債務的控管"},{"start":456.502,"end":477.233,"text":"像那個特別預算新竹那個棒球場原來只2億最後又撥了10億的特別預算給他這個是應該的嗎對不對部長去年本席曾經問你啦美國總統川普今年1月上任後可能將推動高關稅境內減稅等政策新"},{"start":478.354,"end":492.112,"text":"新政成真之後財政部要如何面對市場波動與負面的影響當時你說未來各項稅務政策何時會落實實施強度又如何"},{"start":494.114,"end":511.087,"text":"對應相關國家為何財政部都會密切的觀察那我請問部長川普上任到今天剛好兩個月從財政主管業務的內容來說你認為有哪些層面受影響哪些層面影響最大"},{"start":513.157,"end":522.025,"text":"委員報告那川普上任以後有一些相關的關稅措施比如說對等關稅對等關稅到目前為止其實也沒有相關的具體實施的內容但是呢政府部門行政部門並不會鬆懈我們持續的在關注他所發布的相關的關稅的一些"},{"start":533.455,"end":537.939,"text":"政策也好或者是說相關的一些記錄也好而我們會研擬相關的一些方案同時財政部內部也會去盤點有關從美國進口也好或者是我們出口到美國的相關的貨品以及我們的關稅稅率跟美方的關稅稅率是如何我們這個部分都已經清點了"},{"start":551.809,"end":565.264,"text":"那個部長從台美租稅協定洽簽的時程來看你認為減少雙重課稅對台的對等性公平性會不會因為川普的美國優先的論調而產生變化會不會"},{"start":568.851,"end":584.901,"text":"跟委員報告這個這一屆的美國的國會新就任以後他的眾議院所通過的台美ADTA的兩項法案跟之前在上一屆國會的內容是完全一致那這個完全一致的內容在1月15號已經經過眾院的通過了目前要經過參院的一個審議那參院如果過了以後過了以後那就會跟就要經過總統簽署以後我們雙方在簽國際的文書在簽雙方文書的時候一定是"},{"start":598.129,"end":618.98,"text":"本於互惠平等的原則來做簽署部長雖然部長你說這個租稅協定是雙方有利的不管是台灣供應鏈到美國或美國到台灣的投資都有助避免被雙重課稅但是以川普目前的態度請問部長你對租稅協定洽簽的看法你認為還樂觀嗎"},{"start":627.011,"end":630.052,"text":"這個台美租稅協定呢不管是到我們赴美投資或來台灣投資的相關的個人跟企業都非常重視不管美台商會或台灣商會以及相關的工業總會都非常的重視然後他們也會運用各種場合去希望盡快推動這樣的一個法案通過"},{"start":647.28,"end":668.453,"text":"另外美國兩黨的國會議員也都相當支持所以才會在1月15號的時候眾院就已經那麼快速的通過目前參院也會有相關的提案基本上內容都跟上一次一樣我希望財政部在這方面要去多關注會的 我們也跟美方一直在持續的做工作小組的討論"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":186,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時24分）謝謝主席。是不是請財政部莊部長？"],["主席：好，請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員早。"],["林委員德福：部長早。部長，我請教，因為稅收超徵創新高，兩個禮拜以前對於本黨主張全民普發現金1萬元，本席也在總質詢的時候建議行政院提出對案送立法院來討論，卓院長當時也表示會朝這個方向來走。但是根據上個禮拜一財委會舉辦的「稅收超徵還稅於民」的公聽會，財政部提出三大理由反對事態演進，請問部長，財政部是不是吃了秤砣鐵了心，不甩卓院長的看法？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，首先對於我們的稅課收入優於預期，我們第一個當然是要減少舉債，然後增加還債，剩下的會到歲計賸餘去。如果要維持我們財政的量能，而且能夠保有財政韌性，我們有餘裕的歲計賸餘要怎麼運用，委員那天在總質詢也有提到，您有相關的草案提案，也認為行政院可以提出相關的對案……"],["林委員德福：但是你們沒有提出來啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，這個部分至於怎麼樣運用，那天院長也說了會再考量而且會研議，我想這部分的運用行政院也在考量當中。"],["林委員德福：但是他是說會朝這個方向去走。"],["莊部長翠雲：朝這個方向第一個就是，我們要考量國家長遠的發展，第二個就是我們國家真正的需要、施政的優先順序，譬如說，增強國防的自主能力，或照顧民生、照顧弱勢等等各種措施可以來作考量。"],["林委員德福：今年國防各方面也都有增加預算啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對，這個部分，我想行政院會就國家整體的發展來看財政要怎麼樣做合理有效的運用。"],["林委員德福：莊部長，你和卓院長是不是扮演黑白臉，在國會殿堂對全民打假球，會不會這種狀況？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有這樣的情況……"],["林委員德福：沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有這個情況，而且稅收超過預期和財政有賸餘是兩件事，應該要等到決算以後，才真正能夠算出這樣一個數據來，至於怎麼樣運用，我覺得會從國家整體發展來考量。"],["林委員德福：好，我請教你，對於在野黨提出普發現金，財政部有三大理由來反對，甚至於把普發現金貼上還稅於民常態化的標籤，本席有幾點疑問來請教部長。","112年為了普發現金，財政部當時主張與全民共享過去經濟發展的成果，整體所需的經費將以歲計賸餘支應，不會增加舉債，就是舉借債務；甚至於還進一步表示，財政部配合國家發展的需要，妥適運用財政政策來維繫整個經濟的穩定成長，並利用經濟成長來帶動稅收的增長，適時增加還債，所以普發現金有理。我請問部長，為何114年的今天明明超徵稅收比111年還要多，在野黨提出普發現金，就變成破壞財政紀律，就變成有舉債發現金的疑慮？進一步來說，難道112年、113年政府舉債過多，沒有積極還債，所以才反對普發現金，你的看法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員說明。第一個、113年的稅課收入，就屬於中央的部分，並沒有比111年來得高，111年屬於中央的部分是4,002億，但是在113年屬於中央的是3,757億，所以沒有比111年高。第二個、普發現金不宜常態化，這個部分是我們一直主張的，也就是當時普發現金有它的社會背景，112年的時候行政院訂定了一個「疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別條例」，在裡面有普發現金，每人6,000元，那個時候是因為經過疫情，在疫情期間，因為臺灣的防疫工作做得非常好，所以我們的製造業沒有停工，整個經濟發展的成果非常亮眼，另外，有一些產業事實上也有受到疫情的衝擊，所以應該要強化整個經濟與社會韌性，所以把經濟成長的果實也和全民來共享，當時那個有這樣的背景。"],["林委員德福：部長，昨是今非啦！財政部對普發現金的立場會不會讓人產生這種昨是今非的錯覺，會不會？"],["莊部長翠雲：不會，我們一直認為稅款超過預期是因為經濟成長，以及去年來說，是股市熱絡，超過預期的這些稅款在相關的法制裡面，不管預算法或公共債務法都已經有明確規定，至於普發現金這個部分，112年當時有它的背景……"],["林委員德福：是不是112年、113年舉債過多，是這個樣子嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有舉債過多，我們積極的還債，其實我們的債務比例已經一直在下降，實際數字……"],["林委員德福：但是過去一兆八千多億才還多少而已！"],["莊部長翠雲：到113年是25.8%的債務比例，和40.6%是差距很大的。"],["林委員德福：部長，反對還稅於民常態化，請問部長，對於常態化的先決條件是不是要在超徵稅收的條件下才有可能，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，第一個、普發現金就不應該常態化……"],["林委員德福：好，我就請教，監察院在110年的調查報告指出，特別預算有常態化的現象，並提到特別預算有浮編、破壞正常預算體制的事情。請問部長，行政院的特別預算有常態化的疑慮，難道就不會有破壞財政紀律、長期影響整個政府債務的疑慮嗎？難道這個就不會嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，總預算和特別預算兩者是相輔相成，預算法裡面也有規定，因應國家的重大特殊事故或推動重大的政事，可以編列特別預算，特別預算是長期、多年期的，是分年來做，而且它的舉債和總預算一樣，都要納入債限的管制，它不會突破債務的控管。"],["林委員德福：部長，像新竹那個棒球場，原來只有2億，最後又撥了10億的特別預算，這個是應該的嗎？對不對？","部長，去年本席曾經問你，美國總統川普今年1月上任後，可能將推動高關稅、境內減稅等政策，新政成真之後，財政部要如何面對市場波動與負面的影響？當時你說，未來各項稅務政策何時會落實、實施強度又如何、對應相關國家為何，財政部都會密切的觀察。我請問部長，川普上任到今天剛好2個月，從財政主管業務的內容來說，你認為有哪些層面受影響？哪些層面影響最大？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，川普上任以後，有一些相關的關稅措施，比如對等關稅，對等關稅到目前為止其實也沒有相關具體實施的內容，但是政府部門、行政部門並不會鬆懈，我們持續在關注他所發布的相關關稅的一些政策也好，或者是一些紀錄也好，我們會研擬相關的一些方案，同時財政部內部也會去盤點從美國進口的也好，或者是我們出口到美國的相關貨品，以及我們的關稅稅率和美方的關稅稅率是如何，這個部分我們都已經清點了。"],["林委員德福：部長，從臺美租稅協定洽簽的時程來看，你認為減少雙重課稅對談的對等性、公平性會不會因為川普美國優先的論調而產生變化？會不會？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，這一屆的美國國會新就任以後，他的眾議院所通過的臺美ADTA兩項法案跟上一屆國會通過的內容是完全一致，這個完全一致的內容在1月15日已經經過眾議院通過了，目前要經過參議院的審議，參議院如果過了，就要經過總統簽署，以後我們雙方在簽雙方文書的時候一定是本於互惠平等的原則來簽署的。"],["林委員德福：部長，雖然你說這個租稅協定是雙方有利的，不管是對臺灣供應鏈到美國，或對美國到臺灣的投資，都有助避免被雙重課稅，但是以川普目前的態度，請問部長，對租稅協定洽簽的看法，你認為還可以樂觀以對嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個臺美租稅協定，不管是赴美投資或來臺灣投資的相關個人及企業都非常重視，不管美台商會或台灣商會，以及相關的工業總會，都非常的重視，他們也會運用各種場合去希望儘快推動這樣一個法案通過。另外，美國兩黨的國會議員也都相當支持，所以才會在1月15日的時候，眾議院就已經那麼快速的通過，目前參議院也會有相關的提案，基本上，內容都跟上一次一樣。"],["林委員德福：好，我希望財政部在這方面要去多關注，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：會的、會的，我們也跟美方一直持續在做工作小組的討論。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員。","接著請吳秉叡委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":564,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-20-3","speakers":["賴惠員","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","郭國文","林思銘","鍾佳濱","顏寬恒","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","羅明才","張啓楷","李彥秀","王世堅","陳玉珍","洪孟楷","邱志偉","陳培瑜","葉元之","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143001_00002","1143001_00003","1143001_00004","1143001_00005","1143001_00006","1143001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期財政委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請財政部莊部長翠雲率所屬機關首長暨國營事業董事長、總經理（含各轉投資事業機構公\n股代表之董、監事）列席業務報告，並備質詢；二、審查行政院函請審議「海關進口稅則部分稅\n則修正草案」案；三、彙總整理提出「中華民國114年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業及\n非營業部分審查總報告草案」提報院會案","agenda_id":"1143001_00001"}}},{"id":"159419","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159419","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb0c8751cca4685f6a34aa23c349ee8e693ec8388057f36d628d4ef907c701a5e415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"09:20:38 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大家好我們有請任市長請任市長委員長您好感謝您上禮拜會我們也就人事的問題有了一些討論在今天一開始我先就其實上禮拜有講過一些但是我針對這個比較憂心的現在公務人員超時過勞的問題"},{"start":36.385,"end":48.85,"text":"那我們可以發現呢這其實很大的一個問題是在制度設計之下那我呼應一下剛才那個黃委員其實也談到好幾個法案其實它一個整體的制度結構會影響到很多所以今天本席要討論的幾項都跟這個有點關係"},{"start":52.071,"end":79.588,"text":"好 那我在談剛才我們發現公務人員在制度的設計之下會被推向一個勞動跟報酬不太相當的處境甚至已經有點剝削的情形那過往社會對於公務體系常常都有這種穩定準時上下班的一個印象但是我覺得現在已經這種印象已經跟以前很不一樣了那就本席在行政單位的經驗那如果以勞工的方便勞工的一個概念來講事實上我們都不太合格"},{"start":80.188,"end":93.671,"text":"好所以呢現在情況不同所以很多過勞的案件甚至也有死亡的悲劇那這不是一個個案而是我們可能要了解到它是一個制度性的壓榨機制正在悄然的蔓延"},{"start":95.284,"end":116.415,"text":"人事總署有訂定一個加班費的管制要點表面上每天加班4個小時上限60小時已經過高但是很令人震驚的是有許多的例外條款形同開啟了一個無限制的加班大門就本席了解有的時候為了辦理專案加班上限會提升到6個小時每個月80小時"},{"start":118.576,"end":148.139,"text":"那再進一步如果還要再符合急迫且人力難以調度的條件甚至可以連續三天每天加班至14小時那麼再加上行政院核准以後每三個月可達240小時也超過勞基法所設的每三個月不得超過138小時的這個紅線那請問這樣的制度安排是否仍然符合公務人員保障法的精神"},{"start":149.82,"end":175.721,"text":"謝謝委員給我這個機會說明事實上我們有統計過中央跟地方所有公務人員在最近這三年的平均加班時數大概6.6到9.2個小時平均來講那剛才委員提到的那是屬於極端值我舉一個例子像上一年的三端值可能就會像以前我們在文化單位的那種極端值很不平均嘛對吧你們現在是平均值嘛對不對事實上它會有所謂的"},{"start":177.282,"end":204.546,"text":"High ceiling跟那個Low ceiling那個尖峰跟離峰的問題那我剛才就是針對那個委員所提到的你那個極限值三個月加起來240小時這一種譬如像上一年的那一種山東额颱風你在高雄地區的很多的同仁事實上他為了要很快速的去處理這一些上後處理這種情況是可能發生不過這裡我有跟委員報告"},{"start":205.186,"end":231.881,"text":"我們每一個月對 謝謝上次您來拜會的時候我們其實有就這個部分有做一些交流本席這邊要提醒的就是那現在母法僅有規定加班因給予補償但是沒有授權人事主管單位以行政命令的形式將工時擴張超過國際合理的一個勞動標準更遑論制度上還可以容許加班費上限僅有20小時但是這個是最重要的"},{"start":232.381,"end":253.051,"text":"其餘以獎勵及考積來報酬這樣子的做法其實是在制度裡面將剝削的一個狀況合理化那這樣子安排會有點挑戰人口販運防治法所禁止的報酬顯不當且非自願性工作那這個可能會成為一個灰色地帶是不是"},{"start":254.111,"end":275.797,"text":"人事長你應該做一些研議齁那我們都知道去年無性員工在100個小時的這個過勞之後呢那也犧牲了一個性命那法院也認為國家應該要負責任那這樣子的檢討我們是不是可以讓更多無性職員的事情不要在各機關再重演所以這是麻煩"},{"start":276.957,"end":302.506,"text":"你們可以好好的演繹當工作時間毫無節制加班常態化也不給予合理的報酬公務體系裡面其實這個工作已經不是一個體面的工作有的時候會被忽視強迫的勞動場域所以這個悲劇發生之後我相信剛才黃委員這邊所講的應該做一個整體制度的討論我這裡跟委員報告一下"},{"start":303.226,"end":309.61,"text":"我們就不要就個案了啦 這兩三年我們是從4.7.8.5通過之後我們每一個月都會針對少數機關 少數同仁他加班時數非常不正常而且我們有花文請他說明為什麼要加班這麼久那本席這邊有提醒就是說不要忘記這個獎勵及考積來取代的這個部分是"},{"start":330.104,"end":349.27,"text":"我覺得你們應該好好再處理我同意委員的看法這個是一個重點那最後本席這邊再補充一下因為我要繼續下去下面一個議題整個制度價值的重新校準是不是可以從本席剛才所講的這個內容含義上你們去做一個處理好嗎"},{"start":350.546,"end":376.953,"text":"事實上我覺得現在加班很重要的問題是來自於假如可以從業務流程簡化有些事情更不要這樣做因為我們管制性的東西太多假如管制性的東西我如果要討論業務流程的簡化其實我們還要花時間再去處理業務流程怎麼簡化其實我們要花時間學所以本席講的就是說剛才那種替代性的變成獎勵報酬來替代這個部分請你們了解跟處理我跟委員報告啦"},{"start":379.734,"end":397.602,"text":"這一個我們也有在控制因為我覺得你有加班一定要加班會給你那個獎勵的事實上是屬於你有上限嘛你有一些限制結果你就變相的用這款紅色它事實上是屬於極端值的部分啊你如果說極端值我跟委員報告一件事情如果要說外的你就說極端值不不不"},{"start":401.463,"end":406.745,"text":"我們現在會統計 如果用機關加獎 也會行穩給那個機關我們私下來討論 如果檢測對這點你有問題 我們私下來討論 好不好好 謝謝那另外公務人員的這個出手潮來 工時過高 那過勞的問題 我相信這個已經有很多報導了"},{"start":423.991,"end":443.75,"text":"那這20年來中央機關將去任務化、地方化、法人化及委外化的一個改造目標那許多人力都已經轉進了民營化的全國營企業或者是辦官方色彩非常高的研究機構公務人員的這個人數雖然感覺維持在法定範圍內但是非公務人員的"},{"start":445.171,"end":454.835,"text":"對不起非公務員的政府職員人數卻繼續上升這背後的現象是人力短缺那你們的調查也顯示2023年"},{"start":457.412,"end":477.518,"text":"行政院所屬機關的缺額是29.5%那也就是100人缺了29.5人深入的分析是未運用缺額率也就是不計算在正在申請調動等待國考分發的這個缺額數那中央是這樣地方尤其是那縣市政府呢是缺人"},{"start":477.918,"end":498.676,"text":"但是六都是大家流動率過高的一個缺額這已經不是新聞了那麼2022年的數據看來公務人員離職數是2496人六都1558人那離職的總數佔了62.4%那麼除了部分人員被調往中央以外其他很重要的一個問題還是工作量過大"},{"start":499.096,"end":514.865,"text":"跟剛才我們講的問題也有點接近所以相較於一般縣市六都的負擔也很大所以人力的短缺也導致工作職場的惡化所有的問題都連帶在一起所以我們這樣子的問題人員配置是否需要做一些調整"},{"start":516.469,"end":533.424,"text":"我覺得委員講到一個重點就是會有所謂類似惡性循環的現象因為人進步的速度不夠快工作量沒有做減所以剛才委員的簡報裡面有提到棄任務法棄任務法事實上很重要"},{"start":534.588,"end":556.617,"text":"一個棄任務的話 我們事實上在推兩個字啦 兩個減啦一個是減掉的減 另外一個是減化的減當這兩個字有辦法落實的話大家的工作的loading就不會那麼瘦了謝謝 林市長 我知道就你們行政上或者是機制上你們都希望減可是這個減背後 你會有一些很多的加的東西的代價好 這個請你們內部 就每一個單位"},{"start":559.778,"end":574.704,"text":"的工作職司的差異性做一個處理跟討論而不是只是說我怎麼整天你們來做我們就真的減對你們來說是減但是對其他單位可能增加一些不是他們專業可以處理的東西請檢討一下好不好跟一些專業的單位來做一個討論接下來我要為錦霄夜間家層來請命"},{"start":581.406,"end":599.538,"text":"那個為基層來做一個處理行政院近期核定6月1號起那警消移民跟這個空中勤務等機關在深夜12點到6點的時候駐外勤務者會知己每小時100元的深夜"},{"start":600.84,"end":614.215,"text":"為勞性勤務津貼聽起來好像得贈好像有6.9萬人要受益但是這第一線人的辛勞其實我感覺到還反這個感覺到蠻心傷的基層的反應可以看到這個"},{"start":615.796,"end":638.01,"text":"補貼其實也蠻沒有實質的意義那也顯示出制度上我們還是需要檢討那這個設計的制度呢其實在輪班的公務員形態及勤務的這個風險是不是有將圍牢這兩個字的這個定義好好做一個處理它是單純的形式條件而不是勞動價值的合理衡量許多基層來反映"},{"start":639.392,"end":645.603,"text":"B超商大夜班的時薪還低你們要不要告訴我一下超商大夜班的時薪大概多少你們有了解嗎"},{"start":647.866,"end":669.444,"text":"大葉班應該差不多兩百多塊兩百多塊嘛,你如果知道是兩百多塊,這就一百多塊嘛警消這一類的工作還有一些圍牢耶但是我的委員報告,他本身就有薪水喔,你那個是extra額外再給他的喔那是沒工喔,他那一點鐘兩百多塊,他就是跟我們捏那兩百多塊喔你跟我上次的報告說,你是怎麼算的"},{"start":673.227,"end":693.26,"text":"這重點就是說,你在夜間,那些超商的時薪,你如果要這樣說,我們就來好好算出來,你說因為有薪水,要加班,危險跟加班費,你們覺得只要一百塊就夠了,低於超商,那你如果是這樣的概念,我們就來好好計算。"},{"start":694.261,"end":699.886,"text":"其實要我幫你補充一下剛才說的那一點鐘加一班 它不是加班 它是正常班正常班我去輪候 晚上那段時間 晚上那段時間那報名要沒有那個危險性嗎不不不 我說 那空間有危險性我們會整理資料送給委員"},{"start":713.82,"end":742.679,"text":"對啦 這就很細的所以本席這邊就跟你說是不是就這一些細節那你們可以去了解一下這些實際的狀況那有沒有相對不公平跟不公義的制度那最後我提醒像這個補貼性 對不起你這樣子的這個形式化有點形式化的東西讓機車人會陷入一種補貼性操作的邏輯不用是深夜來值班但是呢 如果沒有離開那個地方譬如說我們在櫃台不要說櫃台啦 警務所在值班"},{"start":743.759,"end":760.836,"text":"蓋在半道戶外才叫做危牢沒有半道戶外就不是危牢這些定義是不是可以討論一下那補償性風險的制度會變成行政操作的一個漏洞那對津貼過低的這個問題其實沒有真正的解決那請你們回去好好的討論跟"},{"start":761.957,"end":779.217,"text":"我們也會提供一些資料給委員我們就像那天在細節上做一個討論那彼此有一些共識最重要的就是這些專業單位最後我提醒一點齁剛才黃國昌委員講的公職人員調薪法制的話本席這邊也是今天其實本來要提醒我現在鄭重的提醒齁"},{"start":779.798,"end":802.333,"text":"不要讓我們覺得家心都要看氣氛等訊息這次其實是某一些權益我們要看整個社會制度在社會的一個報酬率來講還有社會的一個整理你們必須要好好處理這個問題法治化的這個議題是非常重要在合理的指標下我們應該年年有一些調整"},{"start":803.214,"end":811.487,"text":"不要看氣氛等消息 感覺有點太多的行政決策干預好不好 麻煩做一個處理好 謝謝 感謝主席"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":194,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（9時20分）主席、立院及行政院同仁，大家早安、大家好。有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["林委員倩綺：您好。感謝您上個禮拜來拜會，我們也就人事的問題有了一些討論，今天一開始我先就……其實上禮拜有講過一些，但是我針對現在比較憂心的公務人員超時過勞的問題。我們可以發現其實很大的一個問題是在制度設計之下，我呼應一下剛才黃委員也談到好幾個法案，其實一個整體的制度結構會影響到很多，所以今天本席要討論的幾項都跟這個有點關係。","剛才提到我們發現公務人員在制度的設計之下，會被推向勞動跟報酬不太相當的處境，甚至已經有點剝削的情形。過往社會對於公務體系常常都有穩定、準時上下班的印象，但是我覺得現在這種印象已經跟以前很不一樣了，就本席在行政單位的經驗，如果以勞工的概念來講，事實上我們都不太合格。現在情況不同，所以有很多過勞的案件，甚至也有死亡的悲劇，這不是一個個案，而是我們可能要了解到，這是一個制度性的壓榨機制正在悄然蔓延。","人事總處有訂定一個加班費管制要點，表面上每天加班4個小時、上限60小時已經過高，但很令人震驚的是，有許多的例外條款，形同開啟了一個無限制的加班大門。就本席了解，有的時候為了辦理專案，加班上限會提升到6小時、每個月80小時；再進一步，如果再符合急迫且人力難以調度的條件，甚至可以連續3天每天加班至14小時；再加上行政院核准以後，每3個月可達240小時，也超過勞基法所設的每3個月不得超過138小時的紅線。請問這樣的制度安排是否仍然符合公務人員保障法的精神？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員給我這個機會說明，事實上我們有統計過，中央跟地方所有公務人員在最近這3年的平均加班時數大概是6.6到9.2個小時。剛才委員提到的屬於極端值，我舉一個例子，像上一年的山陀兒颱風……"],["林委員倩綺：極端值可能就會像我以前在文化單位的那種極端值，很不平均，對吧？你們現在是平均值嘛，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上它會有所謂的high season跟low season、尖峰跟離峰的問題，針對委員所提到的，極限值3個月加起來240小時這一種，譬如像上一年的山陀兒颱風，在高雄地區很多同仁為了要很快速地善後處理，這種情況是可能發生，不過這裡我有跟委員報告，我們每一個月……"],["林委員倩綺：對！謝謝，上次您來拜會的時候，我們其實有就這個部分做一些交流。本席這邊要提醒的就是，現在母法僅有規定加班應給予補償，但是沒有授權人事主管單位以行政命令的形式將工時擴張超過國際合理的勞動標準，更遑論制度上還可以容許加班費上限僅有20小時，但最重要的是，其餘以獎勵及考績來報酬！這樣子的作法其實是在制度裡面將剝削的狀況合理化，這樣子的安排會有點挑戰人口販運防制法所禁止的報酬顯不當且非自願性工作，這個可能會成為一個灰色地帶，是不是？人事長應該做一些研議。","我們都知道去年吳姓員工在100個小時的過勞之後犧牲了性命，法院也認為國家應該要負責任，這樣子的檢討是不是可以讓更多吳姓職員的事情不要在各機關重演？所以麻煩你們好好地研議！當工作時間毫無節制、加班常態化、也不給予合理的報酬，其實公務體系這個工作已經不是一個體面的工作，有的時候是會被忽視、強迫的勞動場域。所以這個悲劇發生之後，我認同剛才黃委員這邊所講的，應該做一個整體制度的討論，人事長？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡跟委員報告一下……"],["林委員倩綺：我們就不要就個案了啦，我們私下拜會的時候有討論過了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這兩、三年我們從釋字第785號通過之後，我們每一個月都會針對少數機關、少數同仁加班時數非常不正常……"],["林委員倩綺：是，你有跟我講說，你們有在監測，我相信這個部分你們有在做了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：而且我們有發文請他說明為什麼要加班那麼久。"],["林委員倩綺：是！本席這邊的提醒就是，不要忘記關於獎勵及考績來取代的部分，我覺得你們應該要好好再處理。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我同意委員的看法。"],["林委員倩綺：是的，這是一個重點。","最後，本席這邊再補充一下，因為我要繼續下面一個議題，整個制度價值的重新校準是不是可以從本席剛才所講的內容、含意上，你們去做一個處理，好嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得現在加班很重要的問題是來自於，假如可以從業務流程簡化，有些事情根本不要再做，因為我們管制性的東西太多，假如管制性的東西降低……"],["林委員倩綺：如果要討論業務流程簡化，其實我們還要花時間再去處理業務流程怎麼簡化，我們要花時間學，所以本席講的就是，剛才那種替代性的、變成獎勵報酬來替代的這個部分請你們了解跟處理，好嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，這一個我們也有在管制……"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝人事長，我們接下去下面一個議題，好嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得如果有加班一定要給加班費，那個獎勵事實上是屬於……"],["林委員倩綺：你有上限嘛、你有一些限制，結果你就變相用這種方式……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上這是屬於極端值的部分，我跟委員報告一件事情……"],["林委員倩綺：你都說極端值，要選好的時候，你就說平均值；如果要說差的，你就說極端值！拜託，檢討一下！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不！我跟你說，我們現在會統計……"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。我們現在……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：如果用記功嘉獎的部分，我們也會行文給那個機關，為什麼……"],["林委員倩綺：不然我們再私下來討論，如果你針對這點有問題的話，我們私下來討論，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：另外，關於公務人員的出走潮，包含工時過高、過勞的問題，我相信這個已經有很多報導了，這20年來，中央機關將去任務化、地方化、法人化及委外化作為改造目標，許多人力都已經轉進了民營化的前國營企業或者是半官方色彩非常高的研究機構，公務人員的人數雖然感覺維持在法定範圍內，但是非公務員的政府職員人數卻繼續上升，這背後的現象是人力短缺。你們的調查也顯示，2023年行政院所屬機關的缺額是29.5%，也就是100人缺了29.5人，深入的分析是未運用缺額率，也就是不計算正在申請調動、等待國考分發的缺額數。","中央是這樣、地方尤其是，縣市政府缺人，而六都是流動率過高的缺額，這已經不是新聞了。依2022年的數據看來，公務人員離職數是2,496人，六都1,558人，離職的總數占了62.4%。除了部分人員被調往中央以外，其他很重要的一個問題還是工作量過大，跟剛才我們講的問題也有點接近。相較於一般縣市，六都的負擔也很大，所以人力短缺也導致工作職場的惡化，所有的問題都連帶在一起，針對這樣子的問題，人員配置是否需要做一些調整？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得委員講到一個重點，就是會有類似惡性循環的現象，因為人進補的速度不夠快，工作量沒有減少，所以剛才委員的簡報裡面有提到去任務化，去任務化很重要，關於去任務化我們事實上在推兩個字：兩個「ㄐ一ㄢˇ」，一個是減掉的減，另外一個是簡化的簡，當這兩個字有辦法落實的話，大家的工作loading就不會那麼重。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，人事長，我知道就你們行政上或者是機制上都希望減/簡，可是這個減/簡的背後會有很多加的代價，請你們內部就每一個單位工作職司的差異性，做一個處理跟討論，而不是只是說我這樣規定，你們就這樣做，我們就真的減/簡，對你們來說是減/簡，但是對其他單位可能增加了一些不是他們專業可以處理的東西，請檢討一下，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["林委員倩綺：跟一些專業的單位來做討論。","接下來我要為警消夜間加成來請命，為基層來做處理，行政院近期核定從6月1號起，警消、移民跟空中勤務等機關，在深夜12點到6點的時候，駐外勤執行勤務者，會支給每小時100元的深夜危勞性勤務津貼，聽起來好像是德政，好像有6.9萬人要受益，但是這第一線人的辛勞，其實我感覺還滿心傷的，可以看到基層的反映認為這個補貼其實也滿沒有實質的意義，也顯示出制度上我們還是需要檢討。這個設計的制度其實在輪班的公務人員型態及勤務的風險，是不是有將「危勞」這兩個字的定義好好做一個處理？它是單純的形式條件，而不是勞動價值的合理衡量。許多基層反映，100元比超商大夜班的時薪還低，你們要不要告訴我一下超商大夜班的時薪大概多少，你們有了解嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：大夜班應該差不多是兩百多元吧。"],["林委員倩綺：知道是多少錢嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：應該兩百多元吧。"],["林委員倩綺：你如果知道是兩百多元，至少比100元還多。警消這一類的工作還有一些危勞……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：但是我跟委員報告，他本身就有薪水，那是額外再給他的，那是不同的，那一小時兩百多元，他就是只領那兩百多元。"],["林委員倩綺：你送一個報告告訴我你們是怎麼算的，重點是夜間超商的時薪……你如果要這樣說，我們就來好好算出來，你說因為他有薪水，要加班……危險跟加班費，你們覺得只要100塊就夠了，低於超商，你如果是這樣的概念，我們就來好好計算，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員，我跟你補充一下，剛剛說1小時加一班，他那不是加班，那是正常班，他剛好去輪到的晚上那段時間、半夜那段時間，所以1個小時100元……"],["林委員倩綺：半夜沒有危險性嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不、不、不，我跟你說，工作有危險性……"],["林委員倩綺：不然我們一起來做看看，好不好？我們一起來做看看。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會整理資料送給委員。"],["林委員倩綺：對，這就很細的，所以本席這邊就跟你說是不是就這一些細節，你們可以去了解一下這些實際的狀況，有沒有相對不公平跟不公義的制度？最後我提醒，像這個補貼性……對不起，你這樣子有點形式化的東西，會讓基層陷入一種補貼性操作的邏輯，明明是深夜來值班，但是如果沒有離開那個地方，譬如說，我們在櫃檯，不要說櫃檯，在警務所值班，難道要搬到戶外才叫做危勞，沒有搬到戶外就不是危勞？這些定義是不是可以討論一下？補償性風險的制度會變成行政操作的一個漏洞，對津貼過低的問題其實沒有真正的解決，請你們回去好好的討論跟了解，細節……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會提供一些資料給委員。"],["林委員倩綺：我們就像那一天在細節上做一個討論，彼此有一些共識，最重要的是這些專業單位。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好。"],["林委員倩綺：最後我提醒一點，剛才黃國昌委員講公務人員調薪法制化，本席今天本來也要提醒，我現在鄭重地提醒，不要讓我們覺得加薪都要看氣氛、等訊息，好像都在……其實是某一些權益，我們也要看整個社會制度在社會的報酬率來講，還有社會的一個整理，你們必須要好好處理這個問題。法制化的這個議題是非常重要，在合理的指標下，我們應該年年有一些調整，不要看氣氛、等消息，感覺有點太多的行政決策干預，好不好？麻煩做一個處理。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不會，我們不會這樣。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，感謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺林委員，你這個國台語雙聲帶，不錯！","接下來我們請吳思瑤委員質詢。我說錯了，你應該是國、台語再加英文，我聽過你說3種。"],["林委員倩綺：上次是西班牙文。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1143002","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1143002_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第3會期司法及法制委員會第3次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長列席報告業務概況，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1143002_00001"}}},{"id":"159417","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/159417","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/51071748fba5feb088b7215a0cf23b4456c3f89dc79e7a25ec8388057f36d628b530526dddbaabce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"09:18:46 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部長本席想知道您的主張對於台電它是要用綜合電業的形態繼續營運還是要分割為發電 輸電 售電三家公司來營運本席想知道您的主張是什麼"},{"start":64.989,"end":80.367,"text":"報告員我們現在是這個按照綜合電業公司型態繼續經營好那因為時間也到啦那這個本席也提出修法啦如果你支持綜合電業"},{"start":81.328,"end":110.208,"text":"那您對於未來台電有沒有可能如果修法沒過我們電業法現在本席有提案很多委員都有提案那就是希望它維持綜合電業那但是您的主張就是也代表這個行政院的主張是要未來要分割為發電 輸電 售電三家公司嗎還是你們主張還是維持綜合電業那我提到這個東西是我們電業自由化這件事情其實早就落實了"},{"start":111.129,"end":121.178,"text":"在我們現在的再生能源發電你不管是用太陽能發電或是離岸發電其實就已經是發電獨立了輸電是來自於還是讓我們台電負起這個責任授電"},{"start":126.582,"end":138.827,"text":"也各自在這個平台當中自己去售店所以其實在再生人員已經落實了電業自由化那也有其他的必要性但是對於台電本身他是不是應該"},{"start":142.648,"end":148.413,"text":"也要這樣的分割電業自由化還是以綜合電業的方式繼續經營那這就很重要因為這會跟未來現在念茲在茲媒體上報的上個禮拜二本席來質詢說會不會漲電價我們院長說這個沒有那麼快我一質詢好的下個禮拜就說要漲民生用電6%這個是爆派我也不知道實質上怎麼樣那所以呢你這邊也有提到兩個重點質詢完後"},{"start":170.111,"end":178.933,"text":"您也提到說台電的公司是不可以自己沒有辦法決定電價是由電價審議委員會來決定第二個台電公司可以自己決定是否舉債我想我們也都很清楚你們的表述是說我們補助是為了減緩配合政策導致營運不佳的資金成本壓力這也會回歸到如果你是綜合電業的話跟分割為三家的公司來經營"},{"start":199.336,"end":205.678,"text":"控股之後有三家的營運你要怎麼的對於要漲電價如果你要補貼那補到哪裡去啊到底是要我舉債是發電這家公司要舉呢還是輸電的要舉呢 售電的要舉呢那還是乾脆就是總公司控股公司你來舉債啊那幹嘛還要分割"},{"start":222.506,"end":227.67,"text":"就沒有那個意義因為今天對台灣還是一個小國家我們畢竟還是一個島國有需要在這個整個這個我們的這個整個島國當中這個國家當中這個業電業當中他富有那麼大的我們對電信的電力的韌性之高度的要求為什麼"},{"start":243.542,"end":265.26,"text":"因為我們有天災不斷 有颱風 有地震我想我們高雄是感受最深的一個山陀颱風 一個楷米颱風受災的都真的是因為一個樹倒了 整個台電同仁幾乎都在收尾那誰要做 是發電公司要做 輸電公司要做 還是售電公司要去講究"},{"start":266.081,"end":274.97,"text":"我跟總公司叫不動的我三家獨立啊因為這涉及成本啊我出去就是成本耶加班費耶所以說這個我要請部長這邊要很審慎的去表達也要一個很強烈主張分析是支持台電要以綜合電業的方式繼續營運的"},{"start":286.061,"end":307.041,"text":"好那在這邊也就拜託部長您再正視這個問題好那再來呢這個我們台電的虧損現在已經累計4200億那他的資本額呢也不過5000億所以呢這個負債比例高達92.7本期想知道預算復議案沒有通過在沒撥補台電公司的情況之下"},{"start":308.122,"end":320.272,"text":"經濟部或者是台電你怎麼緩解營運的債務及可預期的虧損我所可預期的虧損是今年已經可預計再虧600億所以4200億再加上600億4800億部長您來自企業一個資本額不過5000億啊所以這要怎麼營運下去是不是可以回答一下"},{"start":329.74,"end":345.434,"text":"報告委員我們還是一樣懇請大院能夠同意我們行政院所準備的一千億要補助台電公司我們懇請大院能夠支持來改善財務的部分"},{"start":346.127,"end":371.461,"text":"是 但是如果加上今年的六千六百億 四千八百億那也不過補助他一千億還有三千八百億的虧損 那怎麼辦呢是 我們在內部會啟動這個全面改善的計畫所以我們可以從各個管理面來精進能夠讓這個公司更具有競爭力所以如果給我們這個"},{"start":373.243,"end":389.184,"text":"補助撥補我想對我們整體的士氣會讓我們早日脫離這樣的一個困境部長我們繼續台水這個說到台水其實我真的要感謝你過往的部長不會那麼重視台水的虧損"},{"start":390.205,"end":409.489,"text":"那真的在我質詢之後 您真的在去年11月20日我質詢之後 您真的有送上去給行政院所以呢重視他們的這個最重要的成本 台水最重要的成本是什麼 管線更新啊所以管線更新基本上是要用公共建設的角度來進行應該正常的預算的一個編列 可是現在台水是什麼"},{"start":413.61,"end":439.692,"text":"管線更新他是他借錢來做管線更新是這個公司最大的成本所以在您的爭取之下確實台水也讓行政院這個補助80億每年大概20億來做這樣的更新當然這個實在是杯水車薪總是有一個起步那第二個呢經濟部啊你們也這個要降低漏水李卓院長也宣示喔未來8年再投入"},{"start":441.374,"end":463.105,"text":"807億達到先進國家的10%的漏水率的標準那這807億是怎麼來呢我是不是請那個台水公司好 可以 董事長來謝謝委員的指教那剛才委員有特別提示這807億裡面有巴士是由公務預算來預租台水公司其餘的部分由自來水公司來擠債你說什麼 807億是來自哪裡"},{"start":465.171,"end":479.876,"text":"除了80億是由行政院的公務預算補助之外其他的部分自來水公司要跟銀行借款所以807億你要繼續借款啊727億727億要繼續借款啊對部長您看看這個還要繼續借款所以你在這邊來你已經舉在1167.99億喔部長他7 我說807億要投入這是報章雜誌寫的"},{"start":494.361,"end":514.52,"text":"我從就是你們的公布的這個報紙你說700多億所以1167.991再加上700多億他要去逼他們再舉債然後呢降低漏水率部長這個您要重視我們在向院在向院裡面這個要要求院裡面再播再再準備這個"},{"start":516.121,"end":521.544,"text":"我在這邊具體建議啦直接在這個債務上1167.99億再加上你的807億也好 或者700多億啊分兩年全部進行撥補啦才能夠進行他的資金壓力因為他的所有的作為都是在做管線維護水源的維持 還有他的支息借了1167再加上807億也好 700多億也好他這要支息耶"},{"start":543.038,"end":555.73,"text":"只惜在他們用借來的錢變成我的經常門然後經常門之後我再去付利息這個是非常非常不正常扭曲的一個預算編列謝謝委員的指教好那我講到這個真財所謂國營事業跟產業界真財"},{"start":562.817,"end":577.717,"text":"誘因不足如何吸引 左邊這個是台電的官網資料 僱用人員的起薪跟派用人員的起薪 以及前五年的薪資我們看2024年 去年的國營事業倒考率近三年最低"},{"start":578.297,"end":605.557,"text":"所以我在攬財的部分已經不具吸引力了好如果他跟主計總數去年的全國受僱員工每人每月總薪資平均6萬相比當然這個數字如果放在並不是很多人認同但總是一個數字如果跟這樣子的一個主計處6萬多塊的每人每月的總薪資相比我講這是主計處的數字那很明顯國營事業是偏低的好我們再來看離職率"},{"start":606.698,"end":611.142,"text":"倒考率很低 3年最低離職率 這就剩3年就好110年的3.8的離職率上升到113年的4.4億所以部長這要讓您重視招財不易 留財更難"},{"start":621.792,"end":646.239,"text":"好那包括國營事業為什麼這本席感受很深尤其來自高雄因為國營事業的作業風險是易於公值的颱風來襲的時候民間企業是放颱風架但國營事業的從業人員都是以最快速度恢復民生運作的目標來面對天災的挑戰所以所有便利的民生條件都是我們國營事業同仁披星戴月所換來的"},{"start":647.239,"end":661.753,"text":"所以你看看這些報導我們要去修管先報館搶修三天內恢復供水三天已經讓我民眾受不了可是他們卻是24小時不斷的加班再加班包括台電你看也有這種風險搶修人員墜谷"},{"start":664.415,"end":667.877,"text":"觸電為了一個把一個鳥巢摘下來30%的燒燙傷啊好再來所以具體要求啦這個是部長這邊我們要跟你一起努力的對於二列的這個財務運用去遊說行政院遊說主計處運用超增稅收來補貼國營事業的配合不管只有台電 中油 中油有得到你們的補貼"},{"start":690.811,"end":714.112,"text":"台水也一定要得到你們補貼為什麼我說用超增稅收超增稅收有四個來源第一個營利營所稅營業稅還有這個貨物稅第四個鎮所稅全部來自企業所以我會超增表示我們歸於返鄉的政策是得到肯定的所以企業用水用電"},{"start":714.833,"end":719.235,"text":"多了所以他營業額也多了所以我從他超徵的稅收當中再回到來撥補我的國營事業不管水電都是合理的這是本席的論述所以在這個超徵稅收的部分這個裁員那當然也有這個有我們立法院當政議員說每人發一萬塊有人發兩萬塊"},{"start":736.684,"end":755.771,"text":"但是是不是怎麼讓我的預算更有效益的用用公共建設我覺得這個部分讓國營事業來這個得到超增稅收的理論基礎是因為他全部來自企業我今天企業用電用水多了那我當然用他們的超增稅收去回饋我的台電台水因為我動漲啊我動漲他的電我動漲他的水去穩定台灣的通貨膨脹啊"},{"start":763.154,"end":785.591,"text":"功不可沒所以在這邊這個請部長這邊要能夠給予這樣他們的支持那第二個對於流財攬財的部分希望研議合一的工作條件並適度提高危險加緊部長針對這兩個訴求你怎麼看這個謝謝委員的支持跟指教我們會這個依這個方向來努力好部長我們一起加油謝謝我們現在請"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":56,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（9時19分）有請郭部長。"],["郭部長智輝：委員早。"],["林委員岱樺：部長早。本席關心國營事業，「生活掌聲的背後，勿忘國營事業的披星戴月」，我們來討論國營事業的營運及人才隱憂：一、國營事業債臺高築，二、台水維護管線計畫致債務提升，三、誘因是否不足，讓國營事業在招攬優質人才上有所困境？四、國營事業員工執勤經常伴隨巨大危險。部長，本席想知道您的主張，對於台電，是要用綜合電業的型態繼續營運，還是要分割為發電、輸電、售電三家公司來營運？本席想知道您的主張是什麼？"],["郭部長智輝：報告委員，我們現在是按照綜合電業公司型態繼續經營。"],["林委員岱樺：好，因為時間到了，本席也提出修法了，如果你支持綜合電業，未來如果修法沒過，現在本席有針對電業法提案，很多委員也都有提案，希望台電維持綜合電業，但是您的主張，也代表行政院的主張，未來是要分割為發電、輸電、售電三家公司，還是你們主張維持綜合電業？我提出這個問題，是因為電業自由化這件事情其實早就落實了，現在的再生能源發電，不管是太陽能發電或是離岸發電，其實就已經是發電獨立，輸電雖然還是讓台電負起責任，但售電也是各自在平臺中銷售，所以再生能源部分已經落實了電業自由化，也有其必要性，但是對於台電本身，是不是應該也要因為電業自由化而這樣分割，還是以綜合電業的方式繼續經營？這很重要，因為這會跟現在念茲在茲，以及媒體上報導的電價有關。","上禮拜二本席質詢會不會漲電價？院長說沒有那麼快，但我一質詢完的下個禮拜就說要漲民生用電6%，這個當然是報派，我不知道實際情形怎麼樣。另外，你也有提到兩個重點，我質詢完後，你說第一，台電公司自己沒有辦法決定電價，要由電價審議委員會決定。第二，台電公司可以自己決定是否舉債。我想我們都很清楚，你們的表述是說補助是為了減緩配合政策導致營運不佳的資金成本壓力，這也回歸到剛才的議題，如果台電是控股之後分三家來營運，現在要漲電價，如果政府要補貼，那要補到哪裡去？到底是發電的這一家公司要舉債、輸電的公司要舉債，還是售電的公司要舉債？還是乾脆就總公司、控股公司來舉債？那幹嘛還要分割？沒有那個意義嘛！臺灣畢竟是一個小國家、一個島國，有需要在整個國家當中，讓台電負有那麼大的責任，也就是對電信、電力韌性的高度要求，為什麼？因為我們天災不斷，有颱風、有地震，我想我們高雄感受是最深的，一個山陀兒颱風、一個凱米颱風，真的因為一棵樹倒了，整個台電同仁幾乎都要出動收尾，如果分割了，那誰要來做？是發電公司要做，輸電公司要做，還是售電公司要去搶救？我看總公司叫不動，三家都是獨立公司啊！這裡面涉及到成本，出去就要成本、加班費，所以請部長要很審慎的表達，也要有一個強烈主張，本席是支持台電要以綜合電業的方式繼續營運，在這邊也拜託部長再正視這個問題。","再來，台電虧損現在已經累計4,200億，它的資本額也不過5,000億，所以負債比例高達92.7%，本席想知道預算覆議案沒有通過，在沒有撥補台電公司的情況之下，經濟部或者是台電怎麼緩解營運的債務及可預期的虧損？我所謂可預期的虧損，是今年已經可預期再虧600億，4,200億再加上600億，等於4,800億。部長，您來自企業，一個資本額不過5,000億的公司，要怎麼營運下去？是不是可以回答一下？"],["郭部長智輝：是，報告委員，我們還是一樣懇請大院能夠同意行政院所準備的1,000億補助台電公司，懇請大院能夠支持改善台電財務。"],["林委員岱樺：是，可是如果加上今年的600億，是4,800億，撥補它1,000億也不夠，還有3,800億的虧損，怎麼辦？"],["郭部長智輝：我們在內部會啟動全面改善計畫，可以從各個管理面來精進，讓這個公司更具競爭力。如果給我們補助、撥補，我想對整體的士氣有幫助，會讓我們早日脫離這樣的困境。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，我們繼續談台水。說到台水，其實我真的要感謝你，過往的部長不會那麼重視台水的虧損，在去年11月20日我質詢之後，您真的有送上去給行政院，並重視他們最重要的成本。台水最重要的成本是什麼？管線更新。管線更新基本上是要用公共建設的角度來進行，應該有正常預算的編列，可是現在台水是什麼？管線更新是它借錢來做，管線更新是這個公司最大的成本，所以在您的爭取之下，確實台水也讓行政院補助80億，每年大概20億來做這樣的更新。當然這實在是杯水車薪，但總是有一個起步。","第二個，經濟部也要降低漏水率，卓院長也宣示未來8年再投入807億，達到先進國家10%漏水率的標準，那這807億是怎麼來呢？"],["郭部長智輝：我是不是請台水公司跟您報告。"],["林委員岱樺：好，可以，董事長來。"],["李董事長嘉榮：謝謝委員的指教。剛才委員有特別提示，這807億裡面有80億是由公務預算來挹注台水公司，其餘的部分由自來水公司舉債。"],["林委員岱樺：你說什麼？807億是來自哪裡？"],["李董事長嘉榮：除了80億是由行政院的公務預算補助之外，其他的部分自來水公司要跟銀行借款。"],["林委員岱樺：所以807億你要繼續借款？"],["李董事長嘉榮：727億。"],["林委員岱樺：727億要繼續借款？"],["李董事長嘉榮：對。"],["林委員岱樺：部長，您看看，這個還要繼續借款。你已經舉債1,167.99億！部長，我說要投入807億，這是報章雜誌寫的，就是你們公布的，但剛剛說七百多億，所以1,167.99億再加上七百多億，要去逼他們再舉債，然後降低漏水率。部長，這個您要重視。"],["郭部長智輝：我們再向院裡面要求。"],["林委員岱樺：好。"],["郭部長智輝：請院裡面再準備這筆錢給我們。"],["林委員岱樺：我在這邊具體建議，直接在這個債務上，1,167.99億再加上你的807億也好，或者七百多億，分兩年全部進行撥補啦！才能夠解決它的資金壓力，因為它的所有作為，都是在做管線維護、水源的維持，還有它的孳息，借了1,167億，再加上807億也好，七百多億也好，這要孳息耶！他們用借來的錢變成經常門，然後經常門之後，再去付利息，這個是非常、非常不正常、扭曲的預算編列。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的指教。"],["林委員岱樺：我講到「爭才」，所謂國營事業跟產業界爭才，誘因不足如何吸引？左邊這個是台電的官網資料，僱用人員的起薪跟派用人員的起薪，以及前5年的薪資。我們看去（2024）年的國營事業到考率近3年最低，所以攬才的部分已經不具吸引力了。如果它跟主計總處統計的去年全國受僱員工每人每月總薪資平均6萬相比，當然這個數字並不是很多人認同，但它總是一個數字。如果跟主計處六萬多塊的每人每月總薪資相比，我講這是主計處的數字，那很明顯國營事業是偏低的。我們再來看離職率，到考率很低，近3年最低，離職率就講這3年就好，從110年3.8%的離職率，上升到113年的4.4%，所以這要讓您重視，招才不易，留才更難。","包括國營事業，為什麼本席感受很深？尤其來自高雄，因為國營事業的作業風險是溢於公職的，颱風來襲的時候，民間企業是放颱風假，但國營事業的從業人員都是以最快速度恢復民生運作的目標來面對天災的挑戰，所以所有便利的民生條件都是我們國營事業同仁披星戴月所換來的。你看看這些報導，他們要去修管線，爆管搶修，3天內恢復供水，3天已經讓民眾受不了，可是他們24小時不斷地加班再加班。包括台電也有這種風險，為了搶修能源墜谷，還有觸電，為了把一個鳥巢摘下來，30%的燒燙傷。所以具體要求，這個是我們要跟部長一起努力的，對於惡化的財務，去遊說行政院、遊說主計處，運用超徵稅收來補貼國營事業，不管是台電、中油，中油有得到你們的補貼，台水也一定要得到你們補貼，為什麼我說用超徵稅收？超徵稅收有四個來源：第一個營所稅，營業稅，還有貨物稅，第四個證所稅，全部來自企業，會超徵表示我們鮭魚返鄉的政策是得到肯定的，企業用水用電多了，營業額也多了，所以從超徵的稅收當中再回來撥補國營事業，不管水、電都是合理的，這是本席的論述。","在超徵稅收的部分，這個財源，當然立法院當中也有人說每人發1萬塊，有人說發2萬塊，但是怎麼讓預算更有效益的運用在公共建設，我覺得這個部分讓國營事業得到超徵稅收的理論基礎是因為它全部來自企業，今天企業用電用水多了，當然用他們的超徵稅收去回饋台電、台水，因為凍漲啊！凍漲它的電、凍漲它的水，去穩定臺灣的通貨膨脹，功不可沒，所以在這邊請部長要能夠給予他們支持。第二個，對於留才攬才的部分，希望研議合宜的工作條件，並適度提高危險加給。部長，針對這兩個訴求，你怎麼看？"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝委員的支持跟指教，我們會依這個方向來努力。"],["林委員岱樺：好，部長，我們一起加油，謝謝。"],["郭部長智輝：謝謝。"],["主席：現在請賴瑞隆委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":266,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-19-3","speakers":["謝衣鳯","林岱樺","賴瑞隆","邱議瑩","張啓楷","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","陳亭妃","鄭天財Sra 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有送來嗎謝謝委員給我這個機會來說明事實上在上一年的12月6號我們已經簽成行政院而且在12月7號的時候有林政府委員召開會議審查事實上我們現在就等行政院要送到大院來審議"},{"start":70.037,"end":99.226,"text":"所以到目前為止沒有送來是確定嗎我們40一個一個來啦第一個法案沒有送到立法院來確定嗎對所以是行政院不願意嗎這個現在是行政院在拖嗎行政院他等著要排入整個宴會的議程今天你送來的業務報告啊軍公教調清機制的法制化也不是你今年的重要的工作目標啊所以我看了就很困惑啊現在大家是要打假球嗎"},{"start":101.072,"end":126.615,"text":"去年答應我年底以前要送到立法院來也沒有送來啊現在推給行政院推給行政院以後又落入了我們大家非常熟悉的無限循環什麼叫非常熟悉的無限循環不斷的演繹持續的演繹不曉得要演繹到什麼時候嘛而且你今天的業務報告你上面有寫軍公教調性機制的法制化嗎有嗎"},{"start":128.655,"end":150.952,"text":"那個是在上一年上一年寫的那已經在上一年寫的有完成嗎我們就等行政院排入整個院會討論完不是啦我對於行政機關大家這樣皮球踢來踢去我真的嘆為觀止啦真的嘆為觀止啦去年答應要送來我還特別問你會不會跳票"},{"start":152.236,"end":167.156,"text":"你還信誓旦旦跟我說不會跳票到現在就是沒看到嘛來我具體的問啦從過去的經驗法則啊如果要等行政院送來我看要等到天荒地老到2028年都不會送來"},{"start":168.547,"end":184.202,"text":"我進一步具體的問我們針對有關於軍公教的人員待遇調整條例草案台灣民眾黨我們已經正式提案了如果我拜託召委排案審查你們會不會反對樂觀其成還是反對希望等行政院"},{"start":186.171,"end":212.119,"text":"樂觀其成絕對樂觀其成嘛好第二個重要的問題啊就是公務人員的安慰辦法我們從2018年第一次在立法院見面的時候你應該記得很清楚嘛當初說要調整沒有調整所以去年3月我也肯定你很有擔當啦答應的事情沒有做到你也在司法法制委員會震動道歉我也接受了"},{"start":212.859,"end":240.049,"text":"我覺得政務官啊應該要像你這個樣子就有擔當嘛我答應的事情沒有做到我鄭重道歉這個是應該有一個啊基本的風範啊而不是東西跳票了以後啊還在那邊東拉西扯不願意負起啊政治責任但是您道歉歸道歉該追的事情我還是會追啦是好保訓會"},{"start":241.704,"end":265.081,"text":"一樣我去年追保訓會因為真正的主管單位是我們考試院的保訓會嘛那只不過保訓會在訂這個辦法的時候通常會跟人總啊去做一個協商我去年追了半天啊保訓會在今年二月的時候終於預告了安慰辦法修正草案這個安慰辦法修正草案人事總處有沒有看過"},{"start":266.178,"end":283.052,"text":"有 有看過滿意嗎整個過程一直在跟我們討論滿意嗎就是不是滿意的問題是大家兩院之間大家對相關條文的規定有一個共識這是比較重要所以現在這個安慰辦法是人總也有共識的喔"},{"start":283.806,"end":305.031,"text":"就是他整個過程我們持續兩方都有高密度的在一起討論我為什麼要先問這個問題啊因為我看了安慰辦法以後啊我跟任市長報告啊我非常不滿意啊我非常不滿意啊我為什麼說非常不滿意剛剛你在報告的時候也有提到嘛"},{"start":306.031,"end":333.829,"text":"針對於有關於職場霸凌的機制公務人員被霸凌的機制去年的時候我們勞動部啊發生的不幸事件讓整個社會憤怒我們的政府也說啊要改革在這次的安慰辦法裡面我的確有看到啊針對職場霸凌的部分有設置相關的條文規定嘛任市長你看過嗎我也有看過啊你覺得那樣的條文規定足夠嗎"},{"start":336.588,"end":362.563,"text":"我覺得是要考慮到條文的一個完整性還有可執行性還是蠻重要的好 我們就來看它的完整性跟可執行性來看一下第36條規定各機關不可以因為公務人員提起職場霸凌的申訴給予不利的行政處分那我下一個問題如果因為職場霸凌的申訴給不利的處分 它的法律效果是什麼"},{"start":364.329,"end":384.126,"text":"法律效果事實上當事人他可以跟保訓會提起救濟啊你不用這個規定我也可以提起救濟啊重點是什麼重點就是你要確保一個安全的職場環境嘛不要讓他因為提起申訴而受到不利益的處分嘛那你要有法律效果是什麼"},{"start":385.393,"end":407.587,"text":"制止他讓他不敢做不利益的處分所以我才問你的法律效果是什麼嘛如果你的法律效果是你被不利益的處分那你自己可以去救濟那這36條的規定那不是形同劇文嗎寫好看的啊你有這條沒這條都一樣啊我本來就可以提起行政救濟啊我有說錯嗎"},{"start":409.546,"end":432.841,"text":"我這裡跟委員補充一下很重要的這一次有增加對機關首長的一個懲處給他一個責任很重要的就是以前大家等於就是說你按照你的標準程序保訓會的救濟可是機關首長你如果承受一些懲處的壓力他在執行這件事情他會更加的謹慎我具體給你看什麼叫做"},{"start":434.366,"end":463.729,"text":"不敢給他不利的處分有不利的處分要有法律效果來保証會2021年的時候他們就委託研究計畫就直接講嘛公務人員安慰辦法因為在公務人員保障法19條的授權規定裡面沒有給他有強制性的作為沒有處罰的規定沒有罰則沒有用嘛你們今天修了安慰辦法但公務人員保障法長得還是一模一樣啊長得還是一模一樣啊"},{"start":465.066,"end":490.293,"text":"你們結構性的問題修了這個安慰辦法一樣沒有解決那針對有關職場霸凌申訴的部分台灣民眾黨黨團針對職場霸凌防治法我們已經提了專法透過專法來加以處理任市長贊不贊成基本上我會尊重那個委員的一個提議第二個我更進一步具體的問"},{"start":490.973,"end":518.102,"text":"不可以做不當的差別待遇喔你如果做不當的差別待遇因為申訴接下來有行政法環的規定這才是有法律效果嘛法律人在講的法律效果指的就是這個嘛你不能做什麼事你如果做了什麼事接下來會有什麼法律效果但是你們的安慰辦法根本沒有啊你們的安慰辦法完全沒有啊跟當初保訓會在2021年花錢找學者做的委託研究計畫"},{"start":519.864,"end":537.328,"text":"所指責的缺點長得一模一樣啊這樣的修法方向人事長贊不贊成不過我這裡要跟委員報告在整個公告版本之後我們在跟保訓會談的時候事實上有加入那個裁罰的部分規範在第幾條你說你們有加入裁罰的部分嗎規範在第幾條"},{"start":549.727,"end":559.527,"text":"保障法本身對嘛 就不是安慰辦法嘛所以我一開始我開宗明義就請教你那個安慰辦法你看了你滿意不滿意嘛"},{"start":560.576,"end":589.555,"text":"我看了以後我就很直接跟人事長講我看了就不滿意為什麼看了不滿意沒有辦法解決問題所以你們現在重新協調過了以後現在是要推動公務人員保障法的修正草案嗎現在是公務員保障法跟安慰辦法同時一起處理這樣兩邊來確保當事人的一些潛意確保還有給機關所長我跟人事長講一個基本的法律概念"},{"start":590.456,"end":607.555,"text":"你公務人員保障法修完了以後你的安慰辦法才可以有牙齒這存在很久的問題剛剛你的同事在下面幫你打PASS我就在問說你們是不是要推動公務人員保障法的修法你的同事一直在那邊點頭你可能沒有看到"},{"start":608.975,"end":628.205,"text":"我們同步在進行我跟你講這種事情所謂同步在進行公務人員保障法你如果沒有用法律的層次把它修好的話你去處理安慰辦法一樣沒有辦法解決問題現在我一個最關鍵的問題公務人員保障法的修法草案這個會席可以送來嗎"},{"start":634.139,"end":647.469,"text":"這個考試院我們了解的是安慰辦法大概四月底五月初會送到六合院來備查啦對啊 但現在問題就出來了你公務人員保障法沒有修你的安慰辦法"},{"start":648.209,"end":665.019,"text":"就還是一樣按照舊的公務人員保障法授權訂的安慰辦法一樣沒有牙齒阿阿你剛剛又講同步阿現在又說4月會先被查保障法應該現在前序部也同時在找相關機關在訂阿我這樣講好了啦有的時候"},{"start":665.999,"end":691.385,"text":"一些不幸的事件發生的時候,社會輿論會很強烈政府機關會信誓旦旦的說要做什麼事情但是往往新聞過後,沒有人在意了沒有人在意了你們的腳步,是不是有真的做到當初承諾的,就需要追蹤而我的習慣,我相信任市長應該非常熟悉我的習慣是我一定會追到底"},{"start":692.253,"end":720.101,"text":"我一定會追到底這個會期喔這個會期針對有關於公務人員保障法也好針對有關於職場霸凌的專法也好針對有關於公務人員調薪機制的法治化也好我期待行政部門趕快把你們的東西送到本會來你們東西如果不送來我會拜託召委排審因為台灣民眾黨黨團我們全部修法的版本全部都提出來了"},{"start":721.344,"end":737.916,"text":"從公務人員調薪機制的法制化到職場霸凌的專法到公務人員保障法我們全部都提出來了我希望喔到時候不要因為行政機關提不出法案又繼續拖延可以嗎會朝這個方向努力好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員"}]},"gazette":{"lineno":133,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時8分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：人事長早。我從去年開始就一直非常關注軍公教調薪機制的法制化，事實上，這個法制化拖延過久，從2018年的時候，監察院就具體地指責。你應該還記得去年5月的時候，你們把軍公教調薪機制法制化的書面報告送來時，那時候我有問你，因為你答應去年年底以前要把法案送到本院來，我還問你會不會跳票，你說不會跳票，會送到大院來；我還問你年底以前會送來嗎？然後你說會送來，請問有送來嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：謝謝委員給我這個機會來說明。事實上，在上一年的12月6號我們已經簽陳行政院，而且在12月7號的時候，由林政務委員召開會議審查，我們現在就等行政院送來大院審議。"],["黃委員國昌：所以到目前為止沒有送來是確定嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們還沒有確定。"],["黃委員國昌：我們就事實一個一個來，第一個，法案沒有送到立法院來，確定？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是行政院不願意嗎？是行政院在拖嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：它等著要排入整個行政院院會的議程。"],["黃委員國昌：今天你送來的業務報告中，軍公教調薪機制的法制化也不是你今年的重要工作目標，所以我看了之後就很困惑，現在大家是在打假球嗎？去年答應我年底以前要送到立法院來，也沒有送來啊！現在推給行政院，在推給行政院以後，又落入了我們大家非常熟悉的無限循環，什麼叫非常熟悉的無限循環？就是不斷地研議、持續地研議，不曉得要研議到什麼時候嘛！而且你今天的業務報告上面有寫軍公教調薪機制的法制化嗎？有嗎？對自己的業務報告你自己熟不熟？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：那個是在上一年寫的。"],["黃委員國昌：上一年寫的有完成嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們現在就等行政院排入，在院會討論完以後就會送到大院。"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！對於行政機關大家這樣皮球踢來踢去，我真的嘆為觀止，真的嘆為觀止啦！去年答應要送來，我還特別問你會不會跳票，你還信誓旦旦地跟我說不會跳票，到現在就是沒看到嘛！照過去的經驗法則，如果要等行政院送來，我看要等到天荒地老了啊！到2028年都不會送來。我進一步具體地問，針對有關於軍公教人員待遇調整條例草案，我們台灣民眾黨已經正式提案，如果我拜託召委排案審查，你們會不會反對？是樂觀其成，還是因為希望等行政院所以反對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：樂觀其成。"],["黃委員國昌：絕對樂觀其成嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，第二個重要的問題，就是公務人員的安衛辦法，我們從2018年第一次在立法院見面的時候，你應該記得很清楚嘛！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是的，委員跟我講過。"],["黃委員國昌：當初說要調整，可是沒有調整，所以在去年3月，我也肯定你很有擔當，因為答應的事情沒有做到，你在司法及法制委員會鄭重道歉，我也接受了，我覺得政務官應該要像你這個樣子，就是要有擔當，既然答應的事情沒有做到就鄭重道歉，這是應該要有的一個基本風範，而不是自己講的東西跳票了以後，還在那邊東拉西扯，不願意負起政治責任。但是您道歉歸道歉，該追的事情我還是會追。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，關於保訓會，一樣！我去年追保訓會的問題，因為真正的主管單位是考試院的保訓會，只不過保訓會在訂這個辦法的時候通常會跟人總去做一個協商。我去年追了半天，保訓會在今年2月的時候終於預告了安衛辦法修正草案，人事總處有沒有看過這個安衛辦法修正草案？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有看過。"],["黃委員國昌：滿意嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：在整個過程一直有跟我們討論。"],["黃委員國昌：滿意嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這不是滿意的問題，而是兩院之間大家對相關條文的規定有一個共識，這是比較重要的。"],["黃委員國昌：所以現在對這個安衛辦法是人總也有共識的喔？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是在整個過程我們兩方都有持續高密度的一起討論。"],["黃委員國昌：我為什麼要先問這個問題？因為看了安衛辦法以後，我要跟人事長報告，我非常不滿意，我非常不滿意啊！我為什麼說非常不滿意？剛剛你在報告的時候也有提到，針對有關於職場霸凌的機制、公務人員被霸凌的機制，在去年的時候我們勞動部發生的不幸事件讓整個社會憤怒，我們的政府也說要改革，在這一次的安衛辦法裡面，我的確有看到針對職場霸凌的部分有設置相關的條文規定，人事長，你看過嘛？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我有看過。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得那樣的條文規定足夠嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我覺得要考慮到條文的完整性，還有可執行性還是蠻重要的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們就來看它的完整性跟可執行性，來看一下，在第三十六條規定各機關不可以因為公務人員提起職場霸凌的申訴而給予不利的行政處分。那我要問下一個問題，如果因為職場霸凌的申訴而給予不利的處分，它的法律效果是什麼？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員問法律效果，事實上，當事人他可以跟保訓會提起救濟。"],["黃委員國昌：不用這個規定，我也可以提起救濟啊！重點是什麼？重點就是你要確保一個安全的職場環境，不要讓他因為提起申訴而受到不利益的處分嘛！那你應該要有的法律效果是什麼？就是制止他，讓他不敢做不利益的處分，所以我才問你這個法律效果是什麼嘛！如果這個法律效果是你受到不利益的處分，你自己可以去救濟，那第三十六條這個規定不就形同具文嗎？是寫好看的，有這一條、沒這一條都一樣，我本來就可以提起行政救濟啊！我有說錯嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我這裡跟委員補充一下，很重要的是這一次有增加對機關首長的懲處，給他一個責任，這個很重要，以前大家等於就是說按照一個標準程序、保訓會的救濟，可是機關首長如果承受一些懲處的壓力，他在執行這件事情的時候會更加謹慎。"],["黃委員國昌：我具體給你看什麼叫做不敢給他不利益的處分，如果有做不利益的處分，就要有法律效果。保訓會在2021年的時候有委託研究計畫，就直接講嘛！就是公務人員安衛辦法，因為在公務人員保障法第十九條的授權規定裡面，沒有規定有強制性的作為，沒有處罰的規定，沒有罰則就沒有用，你們今天修了安衛辦法，但公務人員保障法長得還是一模一樣，長得還是一模一樣啊！你們有結構性的問題，即使修了這個安衛辦法，問題一樣沒有解決。有關於職場霸凌申訴的部分，我們台灣民眾黨黨團針對職場霸凌已經提了職場霸凌防治法草案，透過專法來加以處理，人事長贊不贊成？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上，我會尊重委員的提議。"],["黃委員國昌：第二個，我更進一步具體地問，不可以做不當的差別待遇，你如果做不當的差別待遇，因為申訴接下來有行政罰鍰的規定，這才是有法律效果，法律人在講的法律效果指的就是這個嘛！就是你不能做什麼事，你如果做了什麼事，接下來會有什麼法律效果，但是你們的安衛辦法根本就沒有，你們的安衛辦法完全沒有啊！跟當初保訓會在2021年花錢找學者做的委託研究計畫所指責的缺點長得一模一樣，對這樣的修法方向人事長贊不贊成？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不過我這裡要跟委員報告，在整個版本公告之後，我們在跟保訓會談的時候，事實上有加入裁罰的部分，可能這一部分的資料還沒有送到……"],["黃委員國昌：規範在第幾條？你說你們有加入裁罰的部分。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有，有加入裁罰。"],["黃委員國昌：規範在第幾條？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是保障法本身。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！那就不是安衛辦法嘛！所以在一開始我開宗明義就請教你，你看了那個安衛辦法以後滿意不滿意嘛！我就很直接跟人事長講，我看了就不滿意，我為什麼看了以後會不滿意？因為沒有辦法解決問題嘛！所以你們重新協調過了以後，現在是要推動公務人員保障法的修正草案嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在是公務人員保障法跟安衛辦法同時一起處理，兩邊來確保當事人的權益，還有給機關首長課責、更大的壓力。"],["黃委員國昌：我跟人事長講一個基本的法律概念，你在公務人員保障法修完了以後，你的安衛辦法才可以有牙齒，這是存在很久的問題嘛！剛剛你的同事在下面幫你打pass，我就在問你們是不是要推動公務人員保障法的修法，你的同事一直在那邊點頭，你可能沒有看到……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我知道，我們是同步在進行。"],["黃委員國昌：是，我跟你講，像這種事情，所謂同步在進行，對公務人員保障法你如果沒有用法律的層次把它修好的話，你只去處理安衛辦法，一樣沒有辦法解決問題嘛！現在我提一個最關鍵的問題，公務人員保障法的修法草案在這個會期可以送來嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：據我們了解，安衛辦法大概在4月底、5月初會送到立法院來備查。"],["黃委員國昌：對，但是現在問題就出來了，公務人員保障法沒有修，安衛辦法就還是一樣，因為按照舊的公務人員保障法授權訂的安衛辦法一樣沒有牙齒啊！你剛剛是講同步，現在又說4月會先備查。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對於保障法，銓敘部應該現在也同時找相關機關在修訂。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了，在一些不幸事件發生的時候，社會輿論會很強烈，政府機關就會信誓旦旦地說要做什麼事情，但是往往新聞過後，沒有人在意了，就沒有人在意了，你們的腳步是不是有真的做到當初承諾的，就需要追蹤。我相信人事長應該非常熟悉我的習慣，我的習慣就是我一定會追到底，我一定會追到底，在這個會期，針對有關於公務人員保障法也好，針對有關於職場霸凌的專法也好，針對有關於公務人員調薪機制的法制化也好，我期待行政部門趕快把你們的東西送到本會來，你們東西如果不送來，我會拜託召委排審，因為台灣民眾黨黨團的修法版本全部都提出來了，從公務人員調薪機制的法制化、到職場霸凌的專法、到公務人員保障法，我們全部都提出來了，我希望到時候不要因為行政機關提不出法案又繼續拖延，可以嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：會朝這個方向努力。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","接下來請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":62,"meet_id":"委員會-11-3-36-3","speakers":["莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林倩綺","吳思瑤","王鴻薇","沈發惠","羅智強","王義川","翁曉玲","陳培瑜","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林月琴","吳宗憲","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2025-03-20"],"gazet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